#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-18
<Curse> is it possible to make a unbuntu bookdisk?
<Curse> boot floppy i mean
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:thom] : Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-22
<lamont> mdz: reading scrollback, looks like someone wants bootfloppy support - maybe for the next TB agenda???
* lamont ducks
<mdz> lamont: see /topic :-P
<mdz> Kamion, mako, elmo, sabdfl: time
<Kamion> here
* mvo_ waves
<Kamion> haven't seen mako yet today
<lamont> mdz: lol
<mdz> calling mako
* sivang waves back
<mdz> mako says he is on his way
* Kamion sends nudges in the directions of sabdfl and elmo
<mako> hi
<Kamion> opi's first on the agenda; do we have him
<Kamion> ?
<mdz> no, we don't
<Kamion> not in #ubuntu either
<ogra_> do i have to add myself to the agenda, or is approval of new members/maintainers a standard proc for the meeting ?
<mako> ogra_: put yourself on the agenda
<ogra_> ok :)
<Kamion> new maintainers are a fairly standard part of the agenda, but please put it there explicitly
<Kamion> (as in, NM in general)
<mako> so.. sabdfl and elmo
<Kamion> I pinged them on #canonical, no reply yet
<mdz> 2/4 is a quorum, let's get going
<mako> should i call sabdfl?
<mako> i.e., has anyone else called mark?
<Kamion> not me
<ogra_> added :)
<mako> alright. i'm calling
<lamont> silbs might be in shouting distance, though, no?
<Kamion> I'll phone elmo
<mako> he's on his way
<mako> 2 minutes
<mako> or much less than 2 minutes
<mako> :)
<sabdfl> hi all
<Kamion> elmo's coming
<sivang> hey sabdfl 
<pitti> hi sabdfl 
<ogra_> hi
<mdz> 4 for 4
<Kamion> ok, quorate
<mako> bam
<sabdfl> leaders!
<sabdfl> of the free world!
<Kamion> first item is Polish community leader
<sabdfl> is emil here?
<mako> evidently not
<Kamion> he's "opi" on IRC I believe, but can't see him around
<mako> i've emailed or talked thim almost every day this week, but i can't find him now
<Kamion> 16:11 -!- opi: No such nick/channel
<mdz> we should add a note to the agenda page
<mdz> to the effect that if you add an agenda item, you ought to show up to the meeting ;-)
<sabdfl> what do we want to establish before appointing a new country lead
<sabdfl> martijn? smurfix?
<smurfix> I told people to Be There
<ogra_> hmm, abelli is missing too, he's the second tpoic...
<Kamion> mdz: done
<smurfix> There are a couple of wiki pages about this already.
<smurfix> Suggestions for improvements welcome
<smurfix> (notably CountryTeamHowto)
<sabdfl> is it necessary to have the CC approve country team leads?
<Kamion> mako and smurfix are the nominated contacts in CountryTeam
<sabdfl> or could smurfix just liase with them directly?
<mako> right, i've talked to everyone on the agneda about this
<sabdfl> for new maintainers we generally whip around and say "do we know this person can handle it"
<sabdfl> what's the drill for country team leads?
<Kamion> country team leads are supposed to be community interfaces/liaisons
<mako> they need to be active in the community
<mako> and in their country
<Kamion> so I think we at the very least need to know who they are, and ideally arrange that there's no disagreement about who the point of contact is
<mdz> they will represent Ubuntu to their locality
<sabdfl> as far as i'm concerned, if there's only one person who is keen, and they haven't done anything that makes me uncomfortable, we should just let 'em run at it
<mako> and they need to have at least run things by smurf
<sabdfl> mako: agreed
<smurfix> agree
<sabdfl> and we would help to resolve potential problems
<mako> sabdfl: right, this is nothing we can't undo
<Kamion> also leaders are responsible for domain registration
<Kamion> (it seems)
<smurfix> we've discussed pre-registering a common domain set
<smurfix> ubuntu-CC.de for instance
<mako> that discussion is very active ATM
<smurfix> s/de/org/
<smurfix> duh ;-)
<mako> i thinks it's probably a bit premature to bring up here :)
<sabdfl> for example, if there is a country where many ubuntu community members are unhappy with the team lead, we would need to be willing to get to the root of the issue and sort it out
<smurfix> mako: that was going to be my next sentence
<mako> realistically, i think in active leads is  going to be the biggest problem
<sabdfl> nl.ubuntu.com would be easy for us to setup internally too
<sivang> sabdfl: I have asked about this around, I think we need some sort of official master doc in english for people on country teams wanting to approach their govs for investment of time/code/manpower in advancing the ubuntu localization infrastrucutre. most noteable they ask "Who will we get support from? WHat's the official company stand about it?" sort of questions.
<sabdfl> sivang: good points
<sabdfl> sivang: could you draft up such a document?
<sivang> sabdfl: yes, I can.
<sabdfl> great!
<johnlevin> Questions were raised about involvement with businesses on the Country Team UK thread (ubuntu-users) as well
<sivang> sabdfl: I would need some info back from you at the other end on of this ofcourse :)
<sabdfl> sivang: i'll read and respond to a draft
<sivang> sabdfl: k, tnx.
* mako wants to try to poke me back in the direction of the agenda
<sabdfl> smurfix: are you happy with abelli and emil?
<mako> sabdfl: thanks
<Kamion> johnlevin: seeing as there's no language barrier, it seems to me that a useful UK team would be highly involved in local advocacy; but that's later in the agenda
<sabdfl> i'm happy for smurfix basically to approve new country team leads unless he has reservations, then bring those to us
<sabdfl> johnlevin: i'd love to see a uk country team
<smurfix> sabdfl: I'm more-or-less "not unhappy". I did emphasize that they should show up here though
<smurfix> I'd suggest to postpone them
* sivang notes that there is some frustration among his country team members, mainly due to rosetta not containing the d-i tranlsation po yet. could this be arranged some time soon? also, there's a need to know what's/where's the latest version of transt. in ros is. people noted they don't want to rework a translation already done by the gnome il tems for example.
<sabdfl> mako, elmo, kamion, are you happy to delegate appointment of country team leads to smurfix for cases where he has no reservations?
<mako> no, absolutely not
<Kamion> mako: ?
<mako> oh wait
<mako> i mean i have no reservations!
<ogra_> lol
<smurfix> Heh
<mako> sorry.. i parsed taht wrong
<mako> yes, i am happy
<mako> sorry about that
<mdz> and for cases where he does have reservations, it should come to this council, or something else?
<sabdfl> this council
<sabdfl> also, if there is tension or something that needs sorting out he could bring it here
<sabdfl> kamion, elmo?
<elmo> sorry, what powahs would the country team leader have?
<sabdfl> collects the beer money...
<sivang> sabdfl: hehe
<elmo> but basically, no objections from me
<smurfix> I'd still put them on the CC agenda though, but default to OK
<sabdfl> good point
<sabdfl> yes, that way it's transparent that we are setting up new teams
<sivang> smurfix: just to get that documented and archives somehwere..
<smurfix> sure
<sivang> *archived
<sabdfl> ok cool
<Kamion> I have no problems with smurfix approving
<sabdfl> i think that's consensus
<mdz> I don't see a proper web page about country teams; is there one?
<mdz> (there should be)
<sabdfl> so smurfix will lead, people can be appointed by him, he'll announce new appointments to the cc on our agenda
<Kamion> mdz: wiki/CountryTeams
<sabdfl> smurfix: thanks for taking this on, it's going to be a big part of 2005 for us
<mdz> Kamion: I think there ought to be a /teams/country/
* mako would move to chua and hikesh to the malaysian team but they're not here either
<mdz> wiki pages are invisible to someone who is browsing the site to find information about the project
<sabdfl> mdz: agreed
<mdz> also, the new membership process discussed in Mataro needs to be documented
<sabdfl> are the team pages editable or locked?
<Kamion> we could link to the wiki from /community/teams
<sabdfl> no, mdz is right, new teams are important enough to make the main site
<Kamion> I think it would be useful to continue to have that on the wiki, since the people doing this stuff usually don't have super website editing powers
<mdz> they are all editable as far as I see
<smurfix> sabdfl: editable
<sabdfl> much of the detail will stay in the wiki where it is more dynamic
<mako> jiyuu0: we're talkinga bout country team and country team leads
<mdz> perhaps the top-level teams page should be locked (adding new teams)
<smurfix> I'm adding some stuff to CTeamLeader atm
<jiyuu0> mako, ok
<sivang> sabdfl: also, what sort of domain names canonical wants to get a hold of ? for instance, in th .il TLD, ubuntulinux.[org|co] .il are already registered, so is ubuntu.co.il, do we need ubuntu.org.il also? this has come up to me while working out the .il domains...
<mako> jiyuu0: most of the people who were on the agenda today did not show up.. but silbs reminded me that you guys were interested and active in pushing stuff in malaysia
<mdz> Kamion: even if the /teams/country/ page links to the wiki for the individual teams, /teams/country/ itself should be a proper part of the top-level nav
<sabdfl> sivang: yes please, and we'll refund any registration costs
<ogra_> mdz: isnt that enough ? for NM : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
<jiyuu0> mako, yes... true.. we r currently using ubuntu for our workshops
<mdz> Kamion: that's only edited when adding new teams, and will contain information about the process of creating a new team, etc.
<sivang> sabdfl: on my way :)
<jiyuu0> and promoting it to our students
<sabdfl> mdz: agreed. smurfix could you add a country teams page?
<Kamion> mdz: alright, that's fine by me certainly
* mako nods
<smurfix> Umm, there are already four pages about various aspects of the country team process
<sabdfl> jiyuu0: would one of you guys like to be a Malaysian country team leader?
<smurfix> I'm unsure what you think is missing
<mdz> smurfix: its location within the structure of the site
<sabdfl> smurfix: hold on, will do it
<mdz> mako: what about the membership process?
<jiyuu0> sabdfl, yes... my partner has written to mako regarding this
<sabdfl> jiyuu0: great! smurfix is overall leader of the country teams
<mako> mdz: i got distracted by cd numbers yesterday and i didn't finish writing that up :-/
<mdz> mako: the notes at NewDevelopersAndMaintainers should be the basis for a new web page describing the process
<mdz> ah, ok
<mako> mdz: i've been working on it
<mdz> but it's on your list, great
<mako> mdz: i was trying to get it done for this meeting
<Kamion> ok, so does that basically deal with the first two agenda items?
<jiyuu0> sabdfl, i think smurf should be aware too as we email him regarding our activities and plans
<Kamion> if so, we can move on
<sabdfl> johnlevin: any firther comment on a uk team?
<sabdfl> further, even
<smurfix> sure
<johnlevin> The question with the UK-CC is, given that so much of the CC Team tasks are to do with language, translation etc, what would it do?
<sabdfl> advocacy
<sabdfl> beer
<Riddell> I would prefer a GB team since it's the best geographical fit (someone in northern ireland would be more likely to take part in a irish team)
<Kamion> as I mentioned above, I think much of its activity ought to be in local advocacy
<Kamion> Riddell: controversial :-)
<Riddell> johnlevin: it could organise en-gb translation
<Kamion> en_GB's not really that interesting except to obsessives :)
<sivang> Kamion: hehe
<johnlevin> Another question is with geopolitics - with Ireland, Wales (and Welsh) and Scotland
<Keybuk> Kamion: not just because Debian has a slight history of favouring GB spellings anyway
* Riddell obsesses
<sabdfl> en_GB@leeds is more entertaining ;-)
<johnlevin> perhaps an England-CC rather than UK or GB?
<mako> you can have a uk/gb team and someone wants to start a welsh team, that can happen too :)
<Kamion> (cy_GB)
<Riddell> johnlevin: which is why with KDE I went with a geographical GB not a political UK
<sabdfl> as a souf efrikan i'm not sure of the politics of the uk
<jiyuu0> mako, are there procedures to sign up as the country team? what is expected for country team to do?
<mako> jiyuu0: i think hikesh has actually gone over much of this but there are pages on the wiki
<mako> jiyuu0: i guess you must have not been cc'ed on thos emails
<Kamion> I'd tend to pick UK and let Northern Irish people work out for themselves where they want to be; we're used to doing that anyway
<Kamion> issues with UK government are still relevant to people in NI
<Keybuk> #include <inappropriate reference to terrorism>
* jiyuu0 checkin wiki
<sabdfl> if we get a good team lead, those sorts of issues shouldn't be too much of a problem
<sabdfl> a country lead might well be responsible for several sub-projects, different languages etc
<sabdfl> for example, if we had a spanish country lead he would need to be friendly to catalan etc, and probably work across several derivative projects
<mako> but i don't that would necessarily preclude a catalan team either
<sabdfl> so a lot of this is up to the character of the team leader
<sabdfl> mako: agreed
<mako> overlapping teams is OK if it's something people have considered and feel is worth going ahead with
<sabdfl> but in the absence of such a person, we definitely want country team leads that are open minded and easy to get on (with), and not overtly political
<silbs> on the "what do country teams do" question, advocacy is a big part.  teams can help out with having an ubuntu presence at conferences and other events, also helping to coordinate local press coverage, we would like to encourage teams to be creative in terms of advocacy events/programs, 
<sabdfl> they can also work with local magazines
<mdz> yes, conferences definitely
<mako> just so people know.. i get people emailing at info@* a lot asking about getting involved what i will often do is (a) email smurf it's in a country we have no team or (b) email the country team lead
<sabdfl> for example if they contact magazines and newspapers, we can provide a good backup for them with access to team leaders for interviews, or cd's for magazine covers etc
<johnlevin> Here's another UK problem - given that Canonical is based in the UK, there would be overlap between the CC and the Company.
<smurfix> good point, I'll add that to CountryTeams
<sabdfl> no prob
<mako> johnlevin: you're not suggesting the Isle of Man team are you?
<Kamion> johnlevin: there are only about half a dozen of us actually in the UK though
* mako nominates Vic Ferns fo the Isle of Man team
<mdz> that, and Canonical isn't based in the UK
<Kamion> (or something, I forget the current number)
<silbs> there is also a difference between Canonical advocacy and community advocacy. In many ways the latter is more powerful
<sabdfl> i'd really like a good local team
<sabdfl> john, are you interested in leading it?
<johnlevin> Good - gives the gb CC something to do.
<Kamion> a local team would relieve Canonical people in the UK of the task of doing this sort of thing :)
<sabdfl> drinking?
<mdz> exactly
<johnlevin> sabdfl: yes, but not until February.
<mdz> sabdfl: nono, obtaining beer
<Kamion> sabdfl: how do you feel about coordination with people like the campaign for digital rights in the uk?
<sabdfl> good stuff
<sabdfl> also patent issues
<sabdfl> crypto issues
<Kamion> they're not quite on-topic, but share a number of interests
<jiyuu0> how to get listed on the wiki as a MalaysiaTeam?
<sabdfl> we're likely to have people on board who understand these things well and can help communicate
<Kamion> (plus one of the CDR cabal's my best mate and lives down the road from me)
<mako> i think opposition to software patents is quite uncontorverisial in the free software world
<smurfix> jiyuu0: => CountryTeamHowto in the Wiki, it's all there
<jiyuu0> we can have ubuntu on press... shouldn't be prob
* jiyuu0 checkin
<smurfix> (... and I'm not typing that information for the umpteenth time ...)
<mako> jiyuu0: coordinate with smurfix + do the wiki. it appears you've just  done the frst bit
<johnlevin> There's certainly a lot of digital rights campaigns / organisations in the UK 
<mdz> didn't we decide that we shouldn't call the country teams "country teams" for geopolitical reasons?
<sabdfl> true
<Kamion> gar, all the other words are so awkward
<Kamion> regional teams is about the least bad
<ogra_> geo team ?
<sivang> LOcal COmmunity Teams?
* mako would adovcate making teh change if possible
<mako> sivang: local teams is good
<mako> and now is the time to do it
<sabdfl> LoCo?
<ogra_> hehe
<sivang> sabdfl: hehe
<elmo> oh god, not country teams, then we'll have the Taiwan thing all over again
<sivang> we are ubuntu LoCo's :)
<mako> elmo: the taiwan ____ team is on it's way too
<sivang> sabdfl: LoCo sounds a nice acronym to me, also it's a spanish word :)
<smurfix> Well,  I kindof like the term as it is, but OK ;-)
<sabdfl> "neo, this is loco"...
<sivang> hehehe
<mdz> loco about ubuntu
<sabdfl> ok done
<sivang> mdz: exactly
<johnlevin> Do the LoCo motion
<smurfix> johnlevin: OUCH
<sabdfl> aarrrggh....
<sivang> johnlevin: ah kylie...:)
<mako> sabdfl: your joke just became LAW
<sivang> was bendy coming out like this? ;-)
<mdz> just say no to bendy
<sivang> heheheheh
<mako> most ubuntu names start as jokes
<sabdfl> erm.. .that was keybuk's troll that I took on
<mdz> yeah, and I owe him one for it
<mdz> (and not the good kind)
<sivang> and Malone, is a tribute, to Bugsy Malone right? 
<sabdfl> plan on sending monica to birmingham?
<mako> malone is the exception
<fabbione> or Robert Malone? ;)
<sabdfl> off topic, let's get back
<smurfix> OK, who'll do a global Country => Loco replacement in the Wiki?
<mdz> sabdfl: with a knife in her teeth
* mako grins
<mako> smurfix: rename the pages.. put place holders where the old pages were
<mdz> smurfix: sounds like  your domain ;-)
* smurfix can do it
<sabdfl> so agreed, a uk/gb country team would be great
* mako nods
<mako> i'm all for it
<sabdfl> johnlevin: would you discuss taking it on post-feb with smurfix?
<sabdfl> mdz: as long as the knife doesn't end up in my back, i'm happy ;-)
<Kamion> sivang: bugsy
<mako> can we move on
<mako> ?
<sabdfl> MOU
<sabdfl> Masters Of The Universe
<mako> mdz: MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
<mdz> yes
<Mithrandir> we really need a free master of the universe clone.  It was such a fun game.
<sabdfl> elmo: do we have the ability to allow people to upload to universe only?
<elmo> sabdfl: no, but it's a days work
<mdz> so, we have solid consensus that we should have a universe maintainer team
<elmo> tops
* jiyuu0 will create the wiki page... but first time to crash
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: no, we really need a team to think of names that don't start as jokes! :p
<mdz> and I'd love to send out an announcement inviting people to join
<mako> jiyuu0: thanks for coming jiyuu0! 
<elmo> do we need that first?
<sivang> Keybuk: hehe
<sabdfl> then we appoint a core team of MOTU, who can approve new maintainers for universe
<mdz> but I need a process to tell them about
<sabdfl> without reference to the CC
<jiyuu0> night all :)
<jiyuu0> will be back
<sabdfl> night jiyuu0
<mdz> "talk to this person" (or "these people")
<sivang> night jiyuu0 
<sabdfl> mdz, mako, we can tie the MOTU stuff into the Mataro membership roadmap in time
<Mithrandir> I think we need a process for appointing universe maintainers as well -- we don't want universe to decline in quality -- we want it to become better.
<elmo> and what about freeze rules and the like - do they apply to the MOTU?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: *your* jokes in particular?
<mdz> other Ubuntu teams have leaders, and I think MOTU should too
<sabdfl> elmo: yes
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<mdz> haggai: thanks for coming
<Keybuk> sabdfl: Masters Of The Universe was yours/mdz ... I'm *not* taking responsibility for it
<johnlevin_> sorry - connection dropped
<sabdfl> i had two potential leaders in mind, chris halls (haggai) and christoph haas, because of his mentoring background
* mako be very happy with both of them
<mdz> I emailed christoph haas, but admittedly not very far in advance, about coming to the meeting
<mdz> I wasn't able to reach him in time
<sabdfl> Keybuk: that was my disaster
<sivang> mdz: I think he woudl lvoe
<mako> one cocern i have is that we have someone involved with close ties to debian
<sivang> mdz: that
<mako> because it's going to involve coordination with debian quite a bit
<Kamion> both chris and christoph qualify there, I think
<mdz> I think it goes without saying that this person should not be a Canonical employee
<mako> both chris and christoph have that i think
<mako> Kamion: right
<sivang> Kamion: agreed
<fabbione> Kamion +1
<sabdfl> so let's start with them
<fabbione> perhaps they could easily share the load...
<Kamion> +1
<mdz> perhaps we should ask them if they want the job? ;-)
<sabdfl> haggai: how do you feel about this?
<mako> yes, this is not a one person job.. universe is "sorta big"
* haggai trying to work out what is involves
<sabdfl> it will take 5 or 6 core people just to keep track of maintainers i imagine
<sabdfl> haggai: basically lead universe
<mdz> haggai: organizing a group of people to maintain universe, essentially
<sabdfl>  - approve uploaders (maintainers)
<sabdfl>  - when in freeze, perhaps approve uploads
<sabdfl> that's it for the moment i think, but it's potentially a lot of work
<Kamion> haggai: there are changes in main that require sweeping changes in universe, sometimes
<haggai> yes, seems to be quite a bit of work
<Kamion> like the python2.4 transition
<mdz> and the libflac transition
<mdz> both of which are incomplete in universe at this moment
<mdz> also merges in universe
<sabdfl> perhaps we should try to gather a larger team to take this on
<sabdfl> it might be daunting for two people :-)
<mako> sabdfl: seems sane
<haggai> yes, I don't think I have the time to take on that sort of load
<Kamion> I think it could easily be the job of haggai/chrish (if they accepted) to put together a team of people big enough to take this on
<haggai> OOo and Kubuntu ..and universe? shudder
<Kamion> I don't think they should be trying to do the whole job themselves; it's at least full-time for two people
<sivang> haggai: ouch
<mdz> haggai: there will be a lot of overlap between Kubuntu and universe, I imagine
<mdz> Kamion: agreed
<mdz> but we desperately need a starting point
<mdz> so far we have nothing
<sabdfl> i agree with mdz that it would be best if the leader was not a canonical employee, but it might be difficult to get someone to take on the task without some compensation for the time
<sabdfl> haggai: it doesn't require getting the WHOLE of universe right
<sabdfl> just appointing people who care about pieces of it, and getting THOSE right
<azeem> the community will expect this, though
<sabdfl> Kubuntu is a big chunk of it
<haggai> sabdfl: yes, understood 
<Mithrandir> how about some bounty or compensation for handling it -- can be difficult to measure success, though.
<mdz> haggai: the assumption is that there is a wealth of labour available in the community which needs primarily to be organized and enabled
<mako> azeem: you want in?
* mako smells fresh blood
<azeem> hell no
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: i don't mind offering some basic compensation for a few hours per day for someone who is reliable and consistently present, and well trusted by the community
<azeem> this is a suicide mission :)
<haggai> azeem: heh :)
<johnlevin_> Just checked log - confirm I'll discuss LoCo GB with Smurfix in Feb
<sabdfl> even if it is a flight to some distant exotic location :-)
<sabdfl> johnlevin_: cool thanks
<sivang> sabdfl: hehe
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: it would need to be fairly transparent that we are doing it, but I guess that wouldn't be a problem.
<fabbione> sabdfl: does that include space? ;)
<sabdfl> its mainly just having a fast process for approving unproven maintainers and unleashing them on universe
<sabdfl> fabbione: damn, that was a good call ;-)
<ogra_> fabbione: moon ?
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: agreed
<fabbione> ehhe
<mako> it's a little unclear where we have ended up
<mako> to me
<mako> i.e., the person writing the summary
<mdz> mako: summary: mdz says "HELP"
<sabdfl> mdz: have you had a wealth of labour asking to be organised?
<azeem> 'approving unproven maintainers and unleashing them on universe' sounds like people will jump to do things differently than Debian, which will result in even more differences
<sivang> we should haev a small start maybe, approve a small  set of pkgs for MOTU NMs  most demanded by the community and see how it develops...
<mako> alright.. so we we need to keep thinking about this and finding a group of leaders
<haggai> I'd like to think this over a little; in principle I'm willing to do it
<mako> haggai: that's fair
<mako> haggai: it's a little unfair to have the group jump you in irc and demand some soret of decision right away
<mako> :)
<mdz> sabdfl: perhaps not a wealth so far, but certainly enough that I am confident there are many more who have not stepped forward for lack of clear direction
<haggai> mako: :)
<mako> azeem: which is why i said i wanted the leads to have strong debian connections
<haggai> I certainly have had quite a few people mailing me re Kubuntu, so I guess there's likely to be even more wrt universe in general
<sabdfl> ok, elmo, could you invest that day and get us the ability to approve someone as an uploader to universe / multiverse?
<mako> azeem: to coordinate with debian/upstream, minimize unnecessry deltas, let them know How We Do Things
<johnlevin_> Got to go; catch you all later.
<sabdfl> cheers johnlevin_
<elmo> sabdfl: will do tomorrow then
<sabdfl> great
<mdz> haggai: any Kubuntu guys that seem reasonably sane to you should be able to upload to universe, as far as I'm concerned
<mako> thom: master of masters of the universe? (anyone who joins this channel is vulnerable)
<sabdfl> then mdz, kamion, everyone, let's just approve any known sane people who ask
<haggai> mdz: ok, Jonathan Riddell falls into that category
<sabdfl> done
<mdz> sabdfl: so what do i write in the announcement email?
<mdz> sabdfl: show up to the next community council meeting?
* sivang notes for a record fast approval process. :-)
<mako> mdz: sure, run it by me
<amu> mdz: probably cardman 
<thom> mako: hell no
<mako> mdz: draft it on the wiki and i'll hack on it a bit too
<mdz> that means another 2 weeks of zero progress
<mdz> and that's too long
<sivang> mdz: someone can sponser downloads in the meantime maybe
<mako> thom: 17:58 < azeem> hell no
<sabdfl> no, people can approach MOTU (haggai, chrish, anyone else we appoint to that) or any TB or CC member and be approved immediately
<mdz> sivang: no, I don't want this to be associated with similar (arduous) processes in Debian
<sabdfl> if that person has reservations, we would refer to MOTU
<sivang> mdz: ok, very good point
<sabdfl> or TB / CC
<mdz> elmo: can I get a mail alias set up which points to that group of people?
<mako> elmo, mdz: add me to that list
<mdz> mako: you're a CC member
<sabdfl> let's think a little about mechanics
<elmo> which group of people?
<mdz> elmo: <sabdfl> no, people can approach MOTU (haggai, chrish, anyone else we appoint to that) or any TB or CC member and be approved immediately
<sabdfl> elmo, we have a non-chinstrap upload place right?
<mako> mdz: so *that's* what i'm doing here
<mako> :)
<Kamion> sabdfl: upload.ubuntu.com
<elmo> have haggai and chrish even agreed to this? :)
<elmo> sabdfl: yes, what kamion said
<sabdfl> cool
<mako> elmo: they've agreed to think about it :)
<elmo> we still need keyring handling to be done by me
<sabdfl> now what happens if a universe uploader uploads an ubuntu version of a package
<sabdfl> then a new one gets uploaded to sid
<mdz> sabdfl: merge-o-matic should file a bug in the universe bugzilla
<Kamion> we don't have to worry about that until we're out of UVF, do we?
<sabdfl> will merge-o-matic help?
<mdz> sabdfl: unless we're in freeze
<sabdfl> UVF?
<Kamion> since we're not automerging main, we shouldn't be automerging universe
<haggai> sabdfl: once there's an .ubuntu there is no automatic merge
<Kamion> upstream version freeze
<mvo_> upstream-version-freeze
<Kamion> haggai: for main, we get automatic merge attempts filed as bugs for us
<mdz> but not anymore for Hoary
<haggai> yes, I assume we're talking about post hoary
<sabdfl> automerging switched off now?
<Kamion> 'bout a week ago
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> so the bugs are heads-up rather than notifications that it happened
<mdz> sabdfl: we still generate the output in case we need it, but don't file bugs
<mdz> in fact, tomorrow is the deadline to close all the bugs
<sabdfl> is the merge-o-matic output available to non-chinstrap uploaders-to-universe?
<elmo> merge-o-matic  is on rookery, i.e. available to the world
<mdz> sabdfl: absolutely; it's on people.u.c
<Keybuk> sabdfl: sure, it's on people.ubuntu.com
<sabdfl> cool
<sabdfl> WE ROCK
<sabdfl> ahem
<Kamion> I think we're pretty non-chinstrapped now
<Treenaks> uh.. hmm.. I'm late
<sabdfl> great
* mako seconds the WE ROCK motion
<sabdfl> hiya Treenaks
<fabbione> cya Treenaks 
* mako nods to Treenaks 
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge/  for the merged sources, http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/  for the incorrectly classified "current patches"
<sabdfl> Treenaks: could you check scrollback?
<ogra_> hi Treenaks
<Keybuk> I think haggai noted both in his docs
<mdz> Kamion: except for canonical.com baz archives
<Treenaks> sabdfl: I'm reading
<Kamion> yep
<mako> so.. a few more things on the agenda
<mako> can i push us forward a bit?
<elmo> mdz: feature for most of the stuff on there
<Kamion> the only times I've used chinstrap recently are (a) cdimage stuff, logging into little, (b) canonical.com baz archives, (c) proofreading pitti's security announcements before they go out
<Kamion> mako: please do
<sabdfl> great
<mako> mdz: the next one is yours as well
<mako> mdz: content filtering
<mdz> mako: that is not mine
<mdz> that is John Moser
<mako> mdz: i have no idea what you're talking about here
<Kamion> that was bluefoxicy's
<mdz> who didn't show
<sivang> is he here?
<mako> mdz: sorry...
<mako> i still have no idea what he's talking about
<mako> i'll ping him
<mako> and lets move on.. if he shows up, we can handle it then
<Kamion> I've pinged him on #ubuntu
<Kamion> yep
<mdz> mako: he posted to ubuntu-devel on the same subject
<mako> ok. so the next one *is* your mdz
<mdz> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-January/002856.html
<mako> "Getting porting/architecture teams operational"
<mdz> ok
<mdz> we've said that we want to have teams for the architecture ports
<mdz> especially the non-mainstream ones like ia64
<mdz> I'd like for those to actually exist
<mako> i'm in support of that
<mako> in fact, i thought we'd already done it
<sabdfl> the difficult one being ia64 right now?
<mdz> currently we have an amd64 team led by Mithrandir
<Kamion> that would kind of imply non-Canonical people being active in those ports ...
<fabbione> didn't the ia64 team kinda vanished?
<elmo> wjat's involved in having a team for them?
<mdz> and an ia64 team which is sort of vapour
<mako> although i know ther ewas some fallout around ia64
<mako> right.. at least one of the more active folks early on has been called away to other things
<mako> lamont, you were interested in amd64, no?
<mdz> first T-bone said he would do it, then he had other obligations, then T Simonnet said he would, but I've been unable to even reach him
<bluefoxicy> I did what now?
<Kamion>  Discuss potential applications of content filtering and ContentControl
<mdz> bluefoxicy: you proposed an agenda item for the community council meeting (which is what this is)
<lamont> mako: more ia64 than amd64
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: content filtering, we'll get to it in a sec
<mako> bluefoxicy: get ready to talk about "Discuss potential applications of content filtering and ContentControl" but not yet
<sabdfl> mdz: if you don't think ia64 is doable for hoary, you can kill it
<bluefoxicy> oh ok
* bluefoxicy just w oke up and saw his name.
<mdz> sabdfl: currently, no one cares about it enough to actually do work except lamont
<mako> we can put out a call for ia64 work on -news with the summayr of this meeting
<mdz> sabdfl: and we need lamont for other things
<sabdfl> i hate to kill a port after spending a small car on port buildd's :-)
<smurfix> sabdfl: trade them in for a small car then ;-)
<sabdfl> but we were clear that we wanted community teams to lead, and we would provide the infrastructure
<mako> well, i suspect it will be resurrected
<Kamion> there's kill and there's postpone ...
<mdz> oh hey, I got a response from T Simonnet
* lamont has been trying to drum up interest in the hp croud, but not very aggressively
<mdz> he has a small army of students that he says he can put to work
<mako> mdz: is T Simonnet in a place to at least coordinate a bit?
<fabbione> sounds good :-)
<sabdfl> ok, maybe i should call him?
<mdz> but it sounds like they don't know much about how to get things working
<mdz> they have hardware already
<lamont> they have better hardware than the dc
<mdz> they tried to install a random hoary ISO, which of course didn't work because they hadn't fixed the installer yet, and they filed a bug saying it didn't work
<sabdfl> i suspect he's a varsity guy with a heavy load already and not able to do much bug triage, that's what we mostly need
<mdz> we need people to actually fix things
<elmo> lamont: that's not hard
<lamont> elmo: exactly.  step 1) get HP to donate it.
<elmo> ia64 already costs $$$ without buying the good stuff
<lamont> yeah
<mdz> a bunch of people filing bugs about how ia64 works is a step in the wrong direction ;-)
<mdz> s/works/doesn't work/
<mako> mdz: i can try to get you some more bodies to hack on this
* Treenaks has read up on scrollback
<mdz> I think someone should talk to T Simonnet
<sabdfl> i'm happy to call him
<lamont> what we need most right now is someone with time and hardware to figure out what's wrong with anna in d-i
<mdz> about what this role means and find out whether he is able and willing to fill it
<Kamion> the installer bug in question is actually fairly hard to fix, in fairness; I've poked at it a little but didn't get very far
<mdz> sabdfl: you were CCed on the email; I don't have a phone number but can ask
<lamont> mdz++
<sabdfl> i think we need someone of Mithrandir's capability to lead it
* Mithrandir blushes
<mako> sabdfl: ask him if he's willing ot coordinate.. if he is, let me know and i will put out a call for help and we coordinate around him or whoever else
<sabdfl> if we don't have a good lead, it's not going to be ready for hoary
* lamont has specifically been trying to take a hands-off approach to his ia64-driving efforts
<elmo> Kamion: is it really ubuntu specific ?
<sabdfl> i expect his students will be able to fix a lot of small bugs, but not lead hard stuff
<mdz> I've emailed him proposing a phone call
<Treenaks> re: the advocacy thing.. a month ago I ordered 200 more CDs.. haven't been sent yet, is this known?
<Kamion> elmo: seems to me, Debian hasn't had any similar reports that I know of
<lamont> elmo: it winds up using a package name as a pointer...
<fabbione> elmo: doesn't joeyh install automatically on ia64?
<Kamion> "seems to be"
<Kamion> yes, he does
<mako> Treenaks: talk to me aftewards. they should ahve been
<mdz> is there anyone who would be interested in leading the powerpc team?
<Treenaks> mako: ok
<sabdfl> that can certainly be a canonical person
<mako> Treenaks: all cds ordered more than 2 weeks ago have been sent
<sivang> mako: mine's also lost/delayed etc :)
<Kamion> mm, I'm interested in taking part in powerpc obviously, not sure about leading
<elmo> ditto
<mako> sivang: we've already talked about that but this is not really the place to have this discussion :)
<sivang> mako: k, sorry
<mdz> pitti?
<sabdfl> overload...
<pitti> mdz: here
<Kamion> but I'm already doing the powerpc work that impinges on stuff I do without the need for a team blessing :)
<mdz> pitti: you care about powerpc, yes?
<pitti> mdz: yes :-)
<elmo> yeah, 'cos pitti's short of stuff to do :p
<Kamion> it would be nice to have somebody involved who cared enough to get the non-newworld-powermac subarches going sanely
<Kamion> preferably in a not-totally-crackful way
<mdz> I don't think there's a huge amount of work for the team leader to do at this point
<pitti> in fact I was hacking, so I got a bit dragged away from the discussion, sorry
<mdz> but I think it's important that the team exist and have a point of contact
<Kamion> mdz: oh, there's lots of powerpc stuff to do ...
<fabbione> Kamion: what about involving benh?
<mdz> so that people in the community who are interested in it have a place to go
<sabdfl> does the team lead need to have a huge amount of d-i experience?
<sabdfl> or is it mostly "get it to build"
<pitti> mdz: I can be the contact, but I don't have an oldworld
<sabdfl> benh?
<mdz> pitti: we don't even support oldworld, do we?
<Kamion> sabdfl: don't think so, it's more being familiar with the variety of machines that exist
<pitti> if we could get benh, this would be great
<fabbione> sabdfl: he is a ppc kernel guy 
<pitti> mdz: AFAIK they don't even boot now
<Kamion> mdz: no, but imho we should, we get a fair few requests for it
<Kamion> and people have made Ubuntu boot on them
<elmo> oh!
<Kamion> there's a howto on the wiki
<elmo> I know what the powerpc team could do, is get ppc64 going
<mdz> Kamion: exactly the sort of thing to be delegated to the team lead ;-)
<Kamion> mm, yes
<sabdfl> i'm happy to offer a bounty for the subarches kamion is concerned about to benh
<mdz> and ppc64, for that matter
<Kamion> benh is a kernel hacker, from his point of view he's already done the work he needs to do on those sorts of machines
* lamont claims hppa point-of-contact. :)
<Kamion> where benh would be good would be for ppc64 knowledge
* fabbione claims sparc64 :-)
<Kamion> he knows a lot about the kernel/toolchain level of that
<sabdfl> a kernel guy is likely to have a great understanding of arch issues
<fabbione> Kamion: well i guess on a bounty base he can revive his interest ;)
* smurfix will NOT claim m68k. ;-)
<pitti> mdz: I would not mind if powerpc@ubuntu.com is an alias to me, but I think I won't have much time to actually hack on this stuff, at least not right now
<Kamion> benh did write yaboot, of course
<sabdfl> pitti: agreed, i think you have a full load, you are doing very well at that
<Kamion> but benh is employed by IBM; I'm not sure you'll lure him away
<sabdfl> where's benh work?
<sabdfl> bounty, not job <yet>
<fabbione> sabdfl: france iirc
<sabdfl> aaarrgghhhh.....
<mdz> hehehe
<sivang> LOLs
<mdz> worst possible answer
* Mithrandir chuckles
<fabbione> ain
<ogra_> he
<sabdfl> bounty then
<fabbione> ain't MY fault this time!
<fabbione> blame GTK!
* smurfix seems to miss a it of history here
<smurfix> s/it/bit/
* Kamion wonders about somebody like Colin Leroy
<bluefoxicy> <Weird al> ou ju di jure de eifle toweur!  . . . FRENCH TOAST!!!
<Mithrandir> Kamion: wanting to increase the amount of Colins we have? :)
<sabdfl> fabbione: could you ping benh, ask him if he's interested?
<elmo> smurfix: france's contracting laws were designed by the maquis de sade
<Kamion> (did the fan support for newer powermacs, debian-powerpc regular)
<mdz> the work for ppc64 is basically to build and test a ppc64 kernel package, no?
<sabdfl> volunteer or bounty basis, so as not to conflict with ibm commitments?
<fabbione> sabdfl: he is in holidays thiese days but i will as soon as he is back
<mako> elmo: heh
<thom> benh is in canberra
<Kamion> mdz: and resolve any userspace issues that come up
<bluefoxicy> what are we discussing right now, I"m seeing france and things about where people are vacationing
<Kamion> mdz: and figure out what the hell to do about the installer
<Treenaks> thom: we could make bob2 stalk him!
<bluefoxicy> and stalking
<thom> i'm sure he does anyway
<Kamion> bluefoxicy: we're talking about porting teams, which is on the agenda
<Kamion> bluefoxicy: context is everything
<bluefoxicy> ah, that explains the talk about all the other countries :)
<sabdfl> further, it may be a good way to initiate a relationship with IBM
* bluefoxicy just woke up
<sabdfl> Power5 is going to be a big deal
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: at least as long as they don't think we're just grabbing him and running off.
<sabdfl> he's FRENCH
<sabdfl> ok, mdz, i'll talk with t simonnet
<mdz> he's either in france or in australia
<mako> sabdfl: is the implication that they will be happy we're taking him then?
<thom> he's in australia
<fabbione> sabdfl: i will put you two in contanc if that's fit your idea
<mdz> sabdfl: ok, I'll open a dialogue with benh about ppc64
<thom> working at ozlabs in canberra
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> fabbione: please send him to me
<fabbione> mdz: ok fine with me
<sabdfl> in the absence of a strong lead for ia64 it's mdz's decision whether to lift the commitment that ia64 will ship with hoary
<fabbione> mdz: he hangs often on #debian-kernel FYI
* mako nods
<dilinger> he does
<mdz> ia64 will not ship with hoary unless there is someone standing behind it
<Kamion> ozlabs? that's paul mackerras' hangout too
<Kamion> (another ppc64 guy)
* mako nods
<sabdfl> do you guys think i should be reconsidering my position and hiring a port lead for ia64, power5, ppc etc?
<thom> Kamion: yah
<mdz> sabdfl: honestly I don't think that ia64 is very relevant at this point
<sabdfl> or should we stick with core3, plus community driven ports?
<mdz> sabdfl: ppc64 much more so
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: I think bountying them (like we did for amd64) could be useful.
<fabbione> sabdfl: i don't think you should.
<mako> sabdfl: i still think it's worth trying to do this w/ the community.. amd64 seems to be working great
<mako> but yeah, bountying in strategic places can be great
<Kamion> power5 is an enhancement to a current port rather than a new port, really
<Kamion> although that's a fineish distinction
<sabdfl> mako: for amd64 we did have a leader's incentive though, perhaps we should consider the same for other arch's
<Kamion> from our point of view it doesn't involve the same kind of huge buildd commitment
<elmo> gar
<mako> sabdfl: i think it's worth considering
<elmo> I coudn't read "core3" without mentally adding fedore in front of it
<sabdfl> ok, let's chat to benh and t simmonet
<sabdfl> next?
<mako> bluefoxicy: you're on
<mdz> fabbione: kernel team
<mdz> oh, nm
<mdz> this item doesn't sound particularly like community council domain, but maybe I've misunderstood
<mdz> I'd like to hear bluefoxicy's description
<mdz> right, so
<mdz> shall we queue that one again, and move on to the kernel team?
<bluefoxicy> hi
* bluefoxicy was writing e-mail
<bluefoxicy> Uh, there's things like dan's guardian that can do content filtering based on the content of pages et al.  This is useful in a number of situations if deployed well.
<fabbione> sparc64?
<Treenaks> content filtering?
<bluefoxicy> . . what are we on?  Content filtering or kernel?
<Treenaks> great, netsplit
<fabbione> (sorry i got lost in the netsplit)
<mdz> we just lost half the council
<mdz> bluefoxicy: you're up
<smurfix> Hmm... => skip^2 ?
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: ?
<sabdfl> can iptables redirect only traffic destined for apps running as a particular user?
<Treenaks> ok.. content filtering I think, still?
<sabdfl> halllaaaoou?
<sabdfl> i think we've exhausted ourselves
<mako> right yes
<crimsun> you're up (content filtering)
<crimsun> though...yeah, netsplit.
<Kamion> mako: that was my reaction too, particularly given that nobody's responded to the ubuntu-devel post yet
<Kamion> gah
<fabbione> WAIT GUYS
<fabbione> we are in the middle of the usual mess
<sabdfl> hello?
<Treenaks> sabdfl: hello
<ogra_> hi :)
<fabbione> sabdfl: it's a netsplit
<mako> sabdfl: hola
<fabbione> kist wait
<sabdfl> ah
<fabbione> just wait :-)
<fabbione> it will go back automatically
<mdz> fabbione: it already did
<mdz> everyone is back
<bluefoxicy> uh.  I got killed off and stuff, what are we on, and is the netsplit over
<fabbione> no it splitted again
<sabdfl> ok, i lost sync a while back there
<fabbione> sabdfl: everybody did ;)
<mako> it was a bad split
<sabdfl> ok
<crimsun> sabdfl: yes, with the owner module and --uid-owner
<mdz> bluefoxicy: we need to hear from you about content filtering
<bluefoxicy> ok
<Treenaks> crimsun: but that's hideously slow, isn't it?
<mako> bluefoxicy: i think your proposal, especially the part about increasing the infrastructure, is great
<crimsun> Treenaks: it certainly needs optimisation, yes :)
<bluefoxicy> mako:  thanks :)
<smurfix> Please re-do the kernel stuff later, half of us didn't get it.
<bluefoxicy> anyway
<mako> that said, i'm not convined there is a demonstrated need for the team
<bluefoxicy> The idea of content filtering is that you can heuristically scan pages for content indicative of certain subject matter
<mako> that doesn't mean there's isn't a demonstrated need for the *work*
<mdz> bluefoxicy: if I read your email correctly, you propose that a team be created for this project, but you are not willing to participate?
<bluefoxicy> this subject matter may be inappropriate for some work environments, such as schools, businesses, public institutions, libraries, etc
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: this is deep foo, it needs someone with a clear vision and the tech skills to execute it
<bluefoxicy> mdz:  I put a mail on the devel list to try and determine if anyone wants to form a team
<mdz> smurfix: we haven't gotten to kernel yet
<mako> well there is no *way* we are going to come up with a list of filters
<mdz> bluefoxicy: there were no followups that I saw
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: i'm happy for you to advocate for the team, and would vote for it if it had a strong lead
<bluefoxicy> mdz:  I know.
<Method> mako: dansguardian has filters included in the distribution, and updates for blacklisted sites, etc
<mako> *everybody* will disagree with everyone else, and probably disagree with themselves
<Method> that wouldn't be the distro's job at all
<bluefoxicy> I can't be a strong lead because I am highly inexperienced.  I've set up and tested dan's guardian, but i've never actually configured it.
<sabdfl> i don't think we should discuss it more here, other than perhaps to check out how cc members feel about having the functionality there
<mdz> I don't think it's appropriate to create a team for this
<mako> but in terms of the instrastructure, that seems solid
<Kamion> Method: it's the distro's job to select from the various options on offer; dansguardian is just one of a number
<mdz> if there were someone to do the work, we could discuss a possible bounty and work from there
<sabdfl> as i understand it you want to be able to force-filter HTTP traffic directed at specific users
<bluefoxicy> sabdfl:  yes.  Here I only wanted to discuss why it is useful, but if nobody's going to contend it, is there a point?
<mako> mdz: i think a deam could be appropriate but not yet
<mdz> if it becomes a reality, a team could form to maintain it
<mdz> mako: agreed
<Method> Kamion: thats fine but the offerings will certainly have good filters out of box, the distro shouldn't be making those determinations
<sabdfl> some of the cc guys might be uncomfortable with filtering as a default-available option
<mako> i like the idea of having teams form around locus of people doing work on a common project
<mako> i haven't seen that yet
<bluefoxicy> sabdfl:  yes, as a configuration option I want the administrator to be able to do force filtering.  I've set this up here with squid, and it only works for unencrypted connections.
<Kamion> Method: sure, just saying that it's not the job of this meeting to mandate implementation
<mako> sabdfl: i'm uncomfortable with any set of filters being on by default, yes
<sabdfl> mako: agreed, emphatically
<Mithrandir> mako: absolutely.
<bluefoxicy> Filtering should be available but off by default.
<mako> sabdfl: the filters themselves are what i think are controversial, not hte functionality
<mdz> mako: this would presumably be an installation option targeted at parents and extremist governments ;-)
<sabdfl> except for the "Ubuntu Dear Leader" one
<mdz> and not by default
<sabdfl> <duck>
<bluefoxicy> I also would like to mention that filtering can be made to specifically filter viruses if you use dan's guardian with clamav using a certain plug-in :)
<mako> it will automatically block all sites critical of sabdfl
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm sure parent's will love being grouped with extremist governments. :P
<sabdfl> well, sabdfl's naming approach, specifically
<bluefoxicy> So the applications are wider than just filtering porn and drugs
<smurfix> mdz: some extremist governments don't need filters in ubuntu, they already do it in the border routers.
<mako> bluefoxicy: clearly
<mdz> Mithrandir: they have a surprising amount in common
<sabdfl> ok, i think we have consensus that this would be fine as an option
<smurfix> sabdfl: ... a carefully considered one.
<Method> smurfix: in the US local filters are required for things like schools, libraries, and so on
<Mithrandir> mdz: I know, I was a kid once.
<mako> bluefoxicy: you are empowered to do the work, create that nexus work :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: no, surely not! :-)
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: you have your work cut out for you. you'll need to hang out in the appropriate upstream venues to get someone excited  about this
<bluefoxicy> Method has a good point.  In some places such filters are required :)
<mako> bluefoxicy: and then, when you have what looks like a team, we'll be happy to bless it as one :)
<sabdfl> ok, last items...
<mako> kernel team
<mdz> fabbione: kernel team
<bluefoxicy> sabdfl:  Great, now I have to learn how to do this.
<fabbione> yes
<sabdfl> Riddell: you're in the spotlight
<fabbione> we need a kernel team
<Kamion> there's an item before Riddell
<fabbione> the kernel starts to be simply too big for one person
* mako is actually somewhat surprised we don't already have a kernel team
<elmo> who needs a team when you have FABBIONE
<sabdfl> we will hire a kernel lead
<fabbione> mainly we need 3 figures inside the team
<sabdfl> all suggestions welcome
<OddAbe19> I'll be willing to help with that section if we do get one
<fabbione> a) a leader
<fabbione> b) porters
* lamont would like to be on the kernel team. not sure how the time issues work out thouhg..
<sivang> elmo: and he is making a daily sacrafice of gpg keys :)
<fabbione> c) external drivers maintainers
<mdz> fabbione: porting needs should be handled by the architecture/porting teams
<mdz> including the kernel
<fabbione> mdz: yes. i am only defining the figures
<fabbione> not to who assigning the tasks
<OddAbe19> i'll be willing to do recompils and tests if you need me to
<ogra_> fabbione: i raise my hand as a tester....
<sabdfl> would the lead person not also track down external drivers and keep them up to date?
<fabbione> there are several tasks that needs to be shared across the team
<OddAbe19> little bit of help helps
<mako> well, perhaps the best thing is to create a team now plus a list
<fabbione> sabdfl: it's too much..
<fabbione> please guys let me finish one second what i have been thinking about
<fabbione> so that you can have an idea
<mako> fabbione can take the helm now and when when we get a new lead, he can pass the reigns
<fabbione> and than proposals
<mako> fabbione: ok go ahead
<fabbione> the tasks are several:
<fabbione> a) lead the team
<fabbione> b) track upstream
<fabbione> c) bug triage
<fabbione> d) track LKML
<fabbione> e) porting
<fabbione> f) track external drivers
* mdz tries to prevent himself from having any ideas until fabbione is finished ;-)
<fabbione> g) packaging stuff
<fabbione> now
<pitti> h) security updates  ?
<fabbione> the main issue is the volume of traffic generated by upstreams 
<fabbione> pitti: right... that's included in a)
<OddAbe19> pitti, that would be letter c
<lamont> fabbione: security updates != lead
<dilinger> fabbione: you're referring to "upstream" as not only lkml, but linux-scsi, the architecture specific lists, etc?
<fabbione> so we need dedicated people for at least a) b and d) c and f)
<ogra_> dilinger: think nvidia/ati
<fabbione> lamont: it might as well be... since it requires a certain level of trustness
<fabbione> dilinger: i mean all kind of upstreams we have now
<lamont> fabbione: can be trivially delegated to c, given trust
<lamont> and c is going to trip over them anyway
<fabbione> dilinger: think of mISDN, linux, linux-scsi, linux-net, nvidia, inotify
<dilinger> ok
<fabbione> clearly e) must be delegated to the different porting teams
<sabdfl> i have budget for one full time person to lead this
<fabbione> sabdfl: what we really miss is the upstream link
<sabdfl> i've mailed linus asking him if he would recommend someone who has the necessary skills to keep up with upstream, and be a reasonable merge partner for andrew morton and linus
* mvo_ needs to leave now, sorry 
<fabbione> that takes care of tracking upstream*
<fabbione> sabdfl: rocking
<sabdfl> i'm happy to have interested people get in touch with me directly
<fabbione> the other stuff clearly has to be community related
<sabdfl> i would like to publish the work this team does as a broader community kernel effort
<sabdfl> i think it's not just us that are frustrated by the current kernel release situation
<sivang> sabdfl: +1 ROCKING
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: something like having an official ubuntu patchline against the kernel.org kernels?
<mvo_> cool!
<fabbione> right now i am basically handlinh all of the above
<Kamion> the lack of releases for security updates is something that has a lot of people bothered
<fabbione> and it is more than evident that i am not enough
<sabdfl> -uc (ubuntu community) kernel on kernel.org, for example
<pitti> Kamion: this was discussed on vendor-sec recently, btw
<mako> great
<fabbione> sabdfl: i don't mind to start leading this team until we will not get a fulltime upstream guy
<fabbione> but i clearly need help
<fabbione> so now i am calling for volunteers
<mako> fabbione: great. that was my suggestion
<mako> fabbione: i can help you with that
<sabdfl> herbert was dong more than i was aware of
<fabbione> to cover some of the positions mentioned above
<dilinger> note that a tree like that (security and obvious fixes only) is something i already intend to do for debian
<sabdfl> erm... doing
<bluefoxicy> <fabbione> c) bug triage
<bluefoxicy> <fabbione> d) track LKML
<bluefoxicy> Does every distribution track vulns themselves?
<pitti> bluefoxicy: this is done by me mainly
<sabdfl> if we can appoint someone quickly, fine, otherwise perhaps we should get a short term contract in place with herbert?
<mako> fabbione: lets talk after the meeting or tomorrow about putting out a call for help in relation to the kernel
<sabdfl> he's of course a candidate for the full time post
<pitti> bluefoxicy: I usually keep track of vulns and distribute patches 
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  is there a central repository for patches that you get them from, or do you have to look for them floating on the net?
<fabbione> mako: i would suggest after the meeting
<pitti> bluefoxicy: I get them mainly from vendor-sec
<mako> fabbione: great
<sabdfl> i think we need fabbione free to make wonderful things happen in userland for hoary
<fabbione> mako: because we don't have too much time
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  ok, so then there's no void to fill
<mako> fabbione: sounds good
<pitti> bluefoxicy: however, recently we got many patches from dilinger too
<fabbione> sabdfl: :)
<mako> dilinger: great :)
<mako> to sort of summarize
<mako> i think we can move ahead with a team right now
<mako> fabbione has listed the things that are in teh domain of tha tteam
<mako> some of those things we'll have a handle on right now, others we can ask for help on
<mdz> bluefoxicy: and there is a void to fill regarding public discussion of the patching process
<fabbione> mako: i also have more detailed suggestions but we will keep them for after this meeting
<mako> and some may have to wait for the full-time kernel ninja
<mdz> bluefoxicy: which is what I would like for security-review@l.u.c to become
<mako> who is coming and who should take the reigns from fabbione
<fabbione> so whoever is interested in helping the ubuntu kernl please stay after the meeting in this chan
* mako nods
<sabdfl> ok, riddell?
<mako> two newmaintainres up for CC approval
<Riddell> hello
<ogra_> hi :)
<bluefoxicy> mdz:  well I was thinking, Gentoo patches their kernels with secfixes, and suse probably does, and mandrake, and debian, and ubuntu, redhat, everyone has to do it.  Just checking to see if work was being repeted
<pitti> dilinger: do you happen to be interested? :-)
<mako> numero uno is Riddell: a kmaintainer referred by amu
<ogra_> kmaintainer ?
<Riddell> I'd like to be a maintainer so I can better help with the KDE Ubuntu stuff
<pitti> bluefoxicy: this coordination is mainly done on vendor-sec, that's its purpose
<sabdfl> i'm happy for riddell to be approved as a member. i guess under the new rules any of us can also agree to him uploading to universe, right?
<Kamion> I think Riddell can be approved under normal Kubuntu rules?
<mdz> bluefoxicy: vendor-sec is the primary forum for that collaboration, but in my opinion there is more to be done
<Riddell> ogra_: just amu's little joke (I hope:)
<ogra_> hehe
<dilinger> pitti: yes; i guess we'll discuss after this (i need to run out for 20 mins now anyways)
<pitti> bluefoxicy: so usually the work of crafting patches is not duplicated
<bluefoxicy> mdz, pitti:  *nod* ok.
<sabdfl> so done
* mako gives the thumbs up
<sabdfl> elmo, please put riddell on the list for universe / multiverse right away
<mdz> it looks to me like Riddell is interested in full maintainer status as well
<mako> ig
<sabdfl> isn';t that a TB approval?
<ogra_> as i am, else i would have gone for MOTU
* haggai gives thumbs up for universe/multiverse for riddel
<haggai> ;
<haggai> l
<ogra_> but it starts with member first 
<sabdfl> according to the mataro rules?
<mako> right, should be on next weeks TB agenda as well
<mdz> ogra_: it is intended that MOTU be a gateway for full maintainership
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<mdz> ogra_: rather than an alternative
<sabdfl> do we have enough tb folks here to approve right away?
<ogra_> mdz: i know, but there is not very much i'm interested in 
<mdz> ogra_: there is not much you are interested in in the whole of universe? :-o
<ogra_> mdz: well...not as exiting as main
<sabdfl> if it's not absolutely clear, then ogra_, riddell would need to make the case at the tb, and possibly start with universe
* fabbione brb
<mdz> sabdfl: we have 2/3 at least, 3/3 if Keybuk is awake
<sabdfl> exciting for us?
<elmo> sabdfl: ok
* Kamion is also happy with ogra as a member; he's already done a good deal, and we all met him at Mataro
<sabdfl> is anyone on tb/cc/motu happy to vouch for ogra_ w.r.t. universe?
<sivang> mdz: I'm the same as ogra on this, currently interested in g-s-t wrt maintainership.
<OddAbe19> i would really like to help with development of packages for hoary... try to help keep them recent
<mdz> sabdfl: universe, yes
<elmo> what mdz said
<sabdfl> ok, elmo, ogra_ also for universe
* mako happy with ogra_ as a member too
* amu would be very happy with Riddell, i suggest we start with universe 
<sabdfl> are we done?
<mdz> shouldn't MOTU folks be members as well?
<mdz> as a rule?
<sabdfl> any other business?
<ogra_> great, that honors me, thanks all
<sabdfl> mdz: absoloodle
<mdz> dilinger: are you interested in becoming an Ubuntu maintainer?
<Mithrandir> mdz: he had to run out for twenty minutes, he said.
<mdz> ah
<Riddell> it would be good if the NewDevelopersAndMaintainers wiki page said what the difference between member, committer and maintainer is
<sabdfl> ogra_, Riddell, please could you guys digitally sign a copy of the code of conduct (mako, might need tweaking for this purpose) and send it to mako?
<elmo> azeem: ?
<mdz> Riddell: mako is on it
<azeem> eh?
<ogra_> sabdfl: sure :)
<sabdfl> Riddell: member is someone who's made a substantial contribution in any field, and signed the code of conduct
<mako> digitally or non-digitally is fine
<pitti> mdz: in case it has any weight, I would vouch for dilinger
<elmo> azeem: did you have any interest in becoming a MOTU?
<mako> gpg or fax/scan
<elmo> 'cos IIRC you were the one putting ubuntu packages on p.d.o :)
<mdz> pitti: he needs to apply first ;-)
<ogra_> mako: how do i sign a email non-digitally ?
<mako> ogra_: ;)
<sivang> mdz: I want to sign the CoC although not yet applying for maintainership :)
<ogra_> heh
<mdz> ogra_: you print it and write your signature on it
<azeem> yeah, but my work is done for multisync. I guess I'll apply at some point, but I don't plan to do much right now
<mdz> sivang: you don't want to be a member?
<sivang> mdz: I do!
<sabdfl> Riddell: committer / uploader does just that, and can either be for a subset (universe, or a single package for example) or the whole distro
<elmo> azeem: ok, just checking
<mako> sivang: you already are!
<mako> sivang: that happened at the last meeting
<sabdfl> committer / uploader is determined by the tb
<sivang> mdz: just not a maintainer yet, am I not a memebr wrt country team, doc team, etc?
<Riddell> sabdfl, mako: copy and paste from http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct ?
<sabdfl> only the uploaders vote to confirm tb appointments
<mako> Riddell: yes
<mdz> sivang: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
<sivang> mdz: sorry, this is for mak
<sabdfl> Riddell: good enough, we'll polish it over time
<sivang> mdz:  mako
<mdz> sivang: being aa member means acknowledging the CoC, etc.
<mako> sivang: member is a member. you're not approved to upload packages but that is for a different group to decide
<sivang> mdz: ah cool :)
<mako> alright. so did we get CC approval for Riddell and ogra_, it seems yes
<sivang> mako: right
* fabbione thumbs up for both
<mdz> sivang: being a member, you should have already made the statement about the CoC, if I understand the process correctly
<mako> elmo?
* sivang thumbs up for both also
<Keybuk> mdz: am awake, honest :p
<sabdfl> hold on a sec
<sivang> mdz: no body told me that I had to sign it or anything :)
<mdz> sivang: you were present in Mataro when it was decided :-)
<sabdfl> mataro rules said the cc should approve a member, right?
<mako> sivang: but your involvement predates that
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<mdz>  Community Council votes whether a person can become a member.
<elmo> mako: for MOTU? yeah
<sabdfl> but we just said any individual tb/cc/motu could approve a universe committer/uploader
<mako> elmo: for ubuntu membership
<sabdfl> that;s a bit inconsistent
<elmo> oh
<mdz> sabdfl: universe uploader is a step above member
<sivang> mako: ok, so I'm cool with the CC ? 
<mdz> hmm
<elmo> I thought the plan was to make it a flow chart thing?
<elmo> like member, universe, maintainer?
<mako> sabdfl: i'm not sure we specified how universe uploaders would be handled but it seems that TB/MOTU would be the sane places
<mdz> elmo: yes
<mako> sivang: yes
<mdz> ideally, universe folks would be approved from the pool of members
<elmo> so how come we skipped from MOTU straight to maintainer?
<mdz> but we want to fast-track them
<mako> sabdfl: we didn't mention MOTU as an approval step in mataro
<mdz> so there is a conflict
<sabdfl> mako: i was trying to fast track, for efficiency, and saying that any individual TB/CC/MOTU could approve a request for elmo to give a person upload to universe
<haggai> uh, if member needs CC and universe>member, that still leaves CC as possible bottleneck?
<mako> sabdfl: do you want the CC approving uploaders?
<mdz> haggai: exactly
<sabdfl> haggai: exactly
<haggai> ah, ok
<mdz> haggai: that's what we need to address
<mako> i'm ok with saying it's the MOTU's decision
<sabdfl> perhaps this is acceptable pre-hoary?
<mako> and that the cc or tb can challenge any of those decisions
<sabdfl> just to bootstrap a good community for universe?
<haggai> sounds reasonable
<sabdfl> we should still require a digitally signed coc for uploaders to universe
* mako nods
<haggai> yes
<sabdfl> elmo: perhaps you could get that before turning on the permission?
<elmo> sure, could be part of the "send me your key"
<mako> alright, sounds good
<elmo> what are we doing about trust paths and keys, btw?  anything?
<mdz> elmo: we need to have a trust path
<sabdfl> ok, so what we are saying is that, until hoary, one can become a member by signing the coc, sending that to elmo along with a signed approval from any one of the tb/motu/cc individuals
<mako> mdz: signed by a key in the strongly connected set
<sabdfl> and that also gives upload to universe/multiverse
<elmo> mdz: that's a requirement?
<mdz> mako: sure, that's easy, right?
<smurfix> mako: agree
<mako> yes, not hard at all
<mdz> elmo: I think it should be, don't you?
<smurfix> Anybody else, we decide when they come to us
<sabdfl> yes, we can do something with a notary copy of id documents etc
* mako nods
<mako> but getting a key from the SCS should be easy for almost everybody
<sabdfl> in other words i';ll cover the cost to extend the web of trust to include that person if we dont have a good way to do it otherwise
<sivang> mdz: just recalled signing the CoC, memroy fading problems :)
<elmo> mdz: *shrug* sure, happy to, but we've had problems getting employees to get trusted keys, never mind random community guys who might be from like, Canberaa or somewhere equally outrageiously isolated and estranged from civilization
<elmo> sabdfl: k
<mdz> elmo: we're talking about the strongly connected set, which is enormous and geographically pervasive, right?
<haggai> could we use a wider set?  accept e.g. debian signs too?
<mako> elmo: there are things like biglumber.com which are making ths problem easier
<mdz> elmo: as opposed to "needs to be signed by a key in the existing keyring"
<sabdfl> i think we should get a quick round of approvals or dissent from the cc and tb folsk present w.r.t. the new universe process
<smurfix> haggai: ? They're already in the SCS
<Kamion> haggai: strongly connected set is the global one rather than just our Ubuntu keyring
<haggai> ah, sorry
<mdz> sabdfl: so two things, right:
<sabdfl> kamion, mako, elmo? mdz, keybuk?
<Kamion> the Ubuntu keyring is well cross-signed, but still
* mako think it sounds sane
<mdz> 1) accelerated membership process which exchanges CC approval for approval by any one of the set of people you named
<mdz> 2) the same group of people can approve uploaders to universe
<mdz> yes?
<elmo> mdz: yes, we use the global SCS as a fall back in Debian - there are still people who can't be validated that way.. if sabdfl's happy to go with the notary thing, and everyone else is happy with that, it's moot
<Kamion> 1) only for people who are on track for 2)?
<mdz> elmo: ok
<Kamion> if so, I'm ok with that
<Kamion> although
<mdz> likewise
<Kamion> I'd like it to be approval from two people rather than one
<sabdfl> mdz: yes
<mako> Kamion: nice
<Kamion> I know myself that I've made mistakes due to personal bias
<mdz> it's fine with me either way; it's a good list of folks
<Kamion> so a cross-check is good
<sabdfl> let's vote +1 or -1 on the idea, including kamion's suggestion of two people
<mdz> we just don't want to be bogged down in bureaucracy at this point
<haggai> it does go through elmo too, although I'm happy to go for 2 approvals before
<mako> it shouldn't even provide a major stumbling block and is ee the good
<sabdfl> +1
<mdz> +1
<Keybuk> +1
<Kamion> +1
<mako> +1
<mako> WINNAR
<sabdfl> ok, that's plenty
<sabdfl> thanks guys
<elmo> FLAWLESS VICTORY
<sabdfl> abstainer
* mako sighs
<mdz> mako: let's get together after the meeting and write it up proper
<mdz> mako: along with the announcement email
<mako> yes
<mdz> are we finished here?
<sabdfl> thanks for the stamina guys
<sabdfl> i'm all done
<Kamion> ok, close the record-length CC meeting and let the kernel guys carry on?
<mako> will summarize again of course
<elmo> hang on, sorry, what are we doing with members?
<fabbione> sabdfl: thanks :-)
<sabdfl> any other business?
<elmo> anything that involes me?, i.e. keys
<Treenaks> could the next meeting be a bit later?
<mako> mdz: i've got a few to talk to the kernel guys too
<Kamion> members don't involve keys AIUI
<mdz> Treenaks: ++ :-)
<elmo> ok
<Kamion> MOTU does
<fabbione> Treenaks: --
<Treenaks> my boss doesn't like me leaving early (or staying long doing non-work stuff)
* mako needs to get some tea first.. this was long
<mdz> Kamion: members use keys for signing the CoC
<sabdfl> members can sign digitally or fax / mail
<crimsun> Kamion: have to sign CoC?
<Kamion> hm, true
<sivang> adjorned?
<mdz> Kamion: or by some other means
<Kamion> but I don't think they need to be in the Ubuntu keyring
* mako has a fax number up at http://mako.yukidoke.org/contact.html
<mdz> Kamion: correct
<sabdfl> ok guys, thank you all!
<fabbione> mako: re: kernel.. in 5 minutes?
<mako> or you can email scanned docs.. same thing
<sabdfl> adjourned
<mako> fabbione: yeah. sounds good
<mako> give me a moment to decompress
<fabbione> mako: good
<fabbione> i need to take a break too
<ogra_> i'd like to thank everybody who approved me....heading home....
<sivang> ogra_: bye
<pitti> ogra_: nice to see you on board :-)
<Kamion> do we have a list of all current members somewhere?
* sivang looks up to ogra_ :)
<Treenaks> sabdfl: where do we send signed CoCs?
<crimsun> to elmo, I presume.
<ogra_> pitti: thanks.....i'm as happy as i can be :-D
<ogra_> Treenaks: mako
<Treenaks> ogra_: OK
<ogra_> later .... ciao
<Riddell> I got lost, can I upload to universe or do I need to turn up to the next technical board?
<Kamion> 18:00 < sabdfl> elmo, please put riddell on the list for universe / multiverse right away
<Kamion> check with elmo whether it's done yet
<Mithrandir> fabbione: back again?
<fabbione> i am now
<fabbione> mako: ?
<fabbione> mdz: ?
<sabdfl> Riddell: i think elmo needs to do some work to be able to have universe-only uploaders
<dilinger> fabbione: i'm back as well
<sabdfl> in the interim, if you'll agree to upload to universe only, i'm happy
<fabbione> dilinger: cool
<fabbione> sabdfl: btw you missed last TB meeting.. i succeed in installing hoary on sparc64 :-9
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I don't have time to get sucked into the kernel proper, but for anything amd64 related, I'm around.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ok don't worry..
<fabbione> Mithrandir: if we can agree now you will take care of the amd64 bits
<Mithrandir> sure, to the best of my knowledge, I will
<fabbione> Mithrandir: basically debian/config/amd64/ and debian/d-i
<Riddell> sabdfl: ok
<fabbione> Mithrandir: + we will mail out the rest
<fabbione> for grabbing fixes from upstream that are x86_64 related
<fabbione> but that's something i want to somehow automate
<Mithrandir> fabbione: sure, you know this stuff a lot better than me, so I trust you on it. :)
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ehe don't worry
<fabbione> mako: are you back?
<fabbione> i want to make it a breeze to maintain the kernel
<fabbione> not the hell that is now :-)
<dilinger> fabbione: i also intend to grab x86_64 fixes for my tree, as i have a few amd64 machines
<mako> ok
<fabbione> dilinger: that would be cool
<mako> sorry.. took a little longer than i thought
<fabbione> mako: ready?
<fabbione> mdz: ?
<mako> yeah.. let me read the backlog
* fabbione fires up some heavy metal
<fabbione> this is a good one: "don't wait for things to happen. You need to put yourself on fire if you want to succeed"
<Kamion> fabbione: do you keep your kernel tree in arch, out of interest?
<fabbione> Kamion: no. I am keeping everything as neutral as possible atm to avoid Larry's axe on my neck
<Kamion> heh, ok
<dilinger> Kamion: it's kind of hard to do so atm
<fabbione> since i am using bk to pull patches from upstream
<fabbione> the web interface is really.... sucky!
<Mithrandir> I'm off for food and such -- see you around.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: later
<mako> alright
* fabbione shakes mdz
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: food idea!
<fabbione> ok i think he will join later...
<fabbione> mako: do you want to lead this part?
<mako> sure, i can handle this
<fabbione> (since you called for it)
<mako> so we've got the short term solution and the long term solution
<mako> the long term solution involving someone hired by canonical to lead this team and the kernel work
<mako> the short term solution being whatever we need to do to make sure hoary has a kernel that works in the ways and in the places that we need
<fabbione> right
<mako> alright
<fabbione> note that in the term solution we need to find someone that will lead the kernel while i will be getting married
<mako> so i want to go ahead and set up a team right now
<fabbione> *short term*
<mako> well, yes
<mako> remind me, when is that happening again
<fabbione> 12th of Feb -> wedding
<mako> ok
<fabbione> the thursday after for 2 weeks i will be  playing with penguins
<mako> alright, lets set up some team infrastructure first
* mako nods
<mako> i think we need a list
<fabbione> yes
<mako> i can do that
<fabbione> so here is my suggestion:
<haggai> who deals with lists btw?
<mako> jdub
<fabbione> (for the short term)
<haggai> thx
<mako> altough i am a co-admin for most i can't create them
<fabbione> mako: you mean a mailing list?
* mako nods
<fabbione> mako: not another mailing list please...
<fabbione> LKML generates enough already
<zul> mako: i would like to help out with the kernel team although i wasnt at the meeting today i would like to help if possible
<fabbione> + debian-kernel and others
<mako> you want this to be on u-devel?
<mako> zul: yes, it will be possible, we're trying to work out exactly how
<fabbione> mako: i would suggest we start on u-d
<mako> zul: fine with me
<mako> fabbione: do you want to prefix with a [kernel]  tag or not bother?
<fabbione> mako: for the general discussion and somekind of shared imap/mailbox for the team where members can just drop in stuff via email and it is automatically shared
<fabbione> mako: no, i won't bother in the beginning
<mako> a shared mailbox...
<fabbione> yes
<mako> that sounds kind like of a mailing list :)
<fabbione> where to receive the different upstream mailing lists
<fabbione> mako: not really... 
<mako> ok
<mako> do you want to bring that up twith thombot/elmo?
<fabbione> but if you think a mailing list is better..
<fabbione> guys what do you think?
* pitti votes for a new ml
<fabbione> mako: i think we can use my server in the short term
<crimsun> I think it'd be easier to use a separate kernel list
<pitti> fabbione: you can sort the new ML still into your u-devel mailbox folder :-)
<zul> +1
<fabbione> pitti: that's not the point 
<fabbione> pitti: the traffic from the mailing list is mixed as hell
<fabbione> for example you get batch of patches for arch foo
<fabbione> that i don't care to reade
<fabbione> read
<fabbione> but porter for foo does
<amu> and a lot of mails comming trough .... 
<fabbione> he can just move the thread/parse it/ and drop what is important in a queue folder
* dilinger pets nntp
<mako> personally, i think asking people to subscribe to 2-3 lists and providing the procmail filters to move things around correctly is equivalent
<fabbione> that the team leader will care to collect and apply
<mako> as long as it is well documented on a page somewhere
<fabbione> mako: we are not talking of few messages / day
<fabbione> LKML is more than 400 msgs/day
<mako> fabbione: no, i understand
<fabbione> and it is one of several
<mako> if you think that a shared imap(s) is net gain and you can host it yourself, please go ahead
<fabbione> mako: i am open to any solution
<mako> people that want to subscribe themselves can do that instead, no?
<fabbione> mako: the imap would be only for team memebers
<mako> and if you're the only one that uses the share imap thing, it's not like it's a lot of extra work
* mako nods
<fabbione> ok we are stalling on details
<fabbione> let's go to the more important stuff
<fabbione> let's prepare a mailing list but wait to announce it
<fabbione> i am not sure we will generate enough traffic to justify it
<fabbione> mako: do you agree?
<fabbione> ok next step
<fabbione> we need to form the short term team
<fabbione> does anybody want to volunteer as team leader?
* mako nods
<mako> fabbione: i think it's you for the short term
<mako> we need to find someone to take over while you are away
<fabbione> mako: i kinda had that feeling :)
<mako> has anyone been contributing at all?
<fabbione> mako: yes. mdz, dilinger (in form of patches)
<mako> well, mdz is out
* mako smiles at dilinger 
<fabbione> well someone will have to do it while i am away
<fabbione> lamont: ?
<fabbione> elmo: ?
* lamont is here
<fabbione> pitti?
<mako> so lets advertize this on -news once we get the list/wikipages/etc
<fabbione> lamont: you just won the doll
<pitti> fabbione: I can care for the security support while you are away
<mako> before the end of this week
<fabbione> mako: ok.. pitti will take care of security 
<lamont> fabbione: when do you go away>?
<mako> and then hopefully we can get a few more bodies involved in this
<fabbione> lamont: mid feb
<pitti> fabbione: and I think I now know enough about the kernel build system to actually do patching and uploads
<mako> hopefully bye the end of the month we'll have a couple more candidates
<fabbione> ok
<mako> anda  stronger team to run with things while you are away?
<fabbione> pitti and lamont can take care of the kernel while i am away
<elmo> eh?
<fabbione> elmo too
<pitti> fabbione: I can also care for major breakages, but I don't want to become a kernel hacker right now
<fabbione> ;)
<mdz> fabbione: yes?
<mako> elmo: YOURE THE NEW KERNEL MAINTAINER
<lamont> elmo: he was looking for bodies
<mdz> fabbione: the meeting is over
<lamont> mdz: this is the after-meeting meeting
<mako> mdz the "after party" if you will
<fabbione> mdz: yes... we were discussing the kernel team in details...
<mdz> ok
<fabbione> mako: ok short term solution:
<fabbione> pitti - security
<dilinger> i'm happy to continue forwarding on patches as well
<fabbione> mdz do you want to lead the kernel team while i am away in feb?
<lamont> dilinger: please do
<fabbione> dilinger: that would be awesome
<mdz> fabbione: how long?
<pitti> dilinger: that'd be cool, can you CC me if it is security relevant?
<dilinger> pitti: sure
<fabbione> mdz: honeymoon.. 2 weeks 
<pitti> aaaah
<mdz> fabbione: ok, I will do it, or appoint someone else
<fabbione> mdz: cool
<pitti> fabbione: I will call you in the middle of the night, asking how to patch something :-)
<fabbione> pitti: i won't be reachable by any way
<elmo> don't look at me
<pitti> fabbione: just kidding :-)
<fabbione> at least if they will not write IP over sealions
<mako> fabbione: ok.. so by the end of the week can you/we create a wiki page
<mako> fabbione: for kernel team stuff.. saying how to get involved, etc, what is needed
<fabbione> mako: yes
<fabbione> who wants to take care of bug triage?
<mako> we'll also get a list, or not
<mako> fabbione: i will then write up an announcment
<fabbione> mdz has been doing already a lot in that direction
<mako> and send it to -news
<fabbione> but it is not his task
<lamont> fabbione: I can do some of it
<fabbione> lamont: good
<lamont> you talking bugs in bz, or from where?
<fabbione> mako: ok..
<fabbione> bugzilla
<lamont> fabbione: ok
<fabbione> mdz: also note that i hope that for feb will only have minor fixes to do on the kernel and no big active development on it
<fabbione> so things should be limited to security and minimal thiungs here and there
<lamont> fabbione: just need to have a writeup of what needs what kind of stuff - but that sounds like the wiki page
<fabbione> lamont: yeah
<fabbione> next item.. porters
<mdz> lamont: immediately, or during Feb?
<fabbione> we have a big problem to solve here
<mdz> if immediately, I'll update bugzilla
<lamont> mdz: immediately if there's a need
<fabbione> actually a bunch of problems
<lamont> but if you want it for the rest of the month, that's ok too.. :-)
<lamont> mdz: you mean kernel bugs, or all bugs?
<mdz> lamont: kernel
<lamont> ok
* lamont will await the formal baton-handing
<fabbione> a) we need to be able to track specific bug fixes for arch foo
<fabbione> b) we need to improve our debian/config/<arch>/ system
<fabbione> c) b) for d-i
<fabbione> so a) goes back to the porters list
<fabbione> b) we need to workout some magic that will keep the config in a much better sync
<dilinger> b) needs to be done for debian as well; i may get to it, if given the time
<fabbione> right now we have stuff that is not coherent for all our arches
<fabbione> for eg: CONFIG_PREEMPT
<fabbione> it is enable on some but not other arches
<fabbione> and so on trough all the tree
<fabbione> now svenl had some kind of a good idea that we might try to implement
<fabbione> and it needs to come from a tool
<fabbione> generating a 3 levels layer to create specific config files
<fabbione> 1st layer common to all arches
<fabbione> 2nd layer arch specific
<fabbione> 3rd layer subarch specific
<lamont> that has some good potential
<fabbione> merging these 3 layers should create the config file for the kernel
<fabbione> svenl had the idea of splitting out a 4th layer for drivers
<fabbione> like usb/pcmcia and so on
<fabbione> who would like to code this tool?
<fabbione> it is not extremely difficult
<dilinger> fabbione: what about arch-specific drivers?
<fabbione> but not easy either
<zul> i could if you send me the specs
* lamont must go to a geography bee at the kids school... back in 2-3 hours...  anything before I run?
<fabbione> lamont: no thanks...
<fabbione> zul: ok.
<lamont> fabbione: could you send me email pointting to the wiki page and summarizing what all you're dumping on me??  pretty pls?
<dilinger> i don't see the 4th layer as being useful; drivers will be common to all archs, except for a subset of those which will be arch and subarch specific.  and then there are ones that are broken on some archs :)
<fabbione> lamont: right now only bugs and hppa
<lamont> kewl
* lamont leaves
<fabbione> lamont: if there is more i will let you know
<lamont> right
<fabbione> dilinger: the latter will create an exception therefor increasing complexity
<dilinger> right
<dilinger> but they're there, regardless
<fabbione> yes i agree :-)
<dilinger> there are drivers that aren't 64bit safe; ones that aren't big-endian safe.. etc
<Kamion> *cough* acx100
<mako> fabbione: so.. lets meet up with a wiki page later this week and try to get some more people involved
<mako> i think that's a good enough plan
<ogra> damned i missed all the fun stuff now.....
<fabbione> mako: ok. when do you want to meet up to write down the wiki page? you are good at writing stuff
<fabbione> ogra: no.. you are the new mISDN maintainer
<ogra> yeah!
<fabbione> so move your butt on track and fix the bugs :P
<fabbione> j/l
<ogra> lol
<dilinger> anyways, the hard part of this tool doesn't seem like it'll be config generation; the hard part will how to update the configs for a new kernel.  config options will have changed dependencies, there will be some removed, some added; there will need to be an interface for someone to go through all changed config options, view all changed ones, and categorize it
<fabbione> j/k
<fabbione> dilinger: exactly.. that's also part of it
<fabbione> we need to design it very carefully
<dilinger> whether that's just configuring a kernel and parsing the generated config into sections, or actually providing an intelligent interface
<fabbione> dilinger: do you want to work with zul on this tool?
<fabbione> dilinger: we need a 2 way tool
<fabbione> one that walk what's in the tree and somehow magically generate the layers
<fabbione> and one to put everything back with logic
<fabbione> clearly we need a middle logic to analize what is happening
<mako> fabbione: having at least notes or wahtever by thursday would be good. i can work on it then and then get something mailed by fraiday
<fabbione> dilinger: possibly a way to tag certain CONFIG_ as common
<dilinger> fabbione: sure.  hopefully we can piggy back off the kbuild system (i'm not even going to worry about 2.4) for functionality.  but, i can't promise that i'll have free time
<fabbione> mako: i will still need your help.... i have an upcoming release tomorrow or thursday
<mako> fabbione: ok.. friday then
<mdz> dilinger: if you are interested, we can fund this project with a bounty to help create time for it
<mako> fabbione: i can mail it saturday :)
<fabbione> dilinger: exactly.. 
<zul> are we going to make debs for different kernel patchset ie ac patch set
<mako> fabbione: i've no lack of other things to do as well :)
<fabbione> mako: cool saturday would be perfect for me
<fabbione> mako: friday night i am free and we can work on it together
<mako> sounds good
<fabbione> zul: no. we will track vanilla and we will pull what we need
<zul> k
<dilinger> mdz: well, that doesn't mean my day job will stay out of my way, but it does mean i'll be more willing to devote weekends to it ;)
<zul> fabbione: because the gentoo way gets crazy
<fabbione> zul: hounestly i didn't track gentoo
<fabbione> but i don't want a kernel bloat
<zul> :)
<fabbione> we simply can't efford to track too many kernels
<fabbione> and we already have too many imho
<fabbione> so...
<fabbione> mako: do we have anything left for the short term?
<Kamion> zul: having lots of different binary packages fragments the available testing effort
<fabbione> dilinger, zul: please try to draft the specification for such a tool
<mako> fabbione: i think we're set for the short term
<fabbione> basically i don't really care how it is written and how does the stuff internally...
<fabbione> mako: ok.
<mako> and the long term is mostly in sabdfl's court at this point
<mako> AIUI
<fabbione> long term it will be faster:
<mdz> dilinger: send me a quote via email?
<fabbione> as soon as we get the kernel leader
<mako> except that we will keep the team structure
<fabbione> i will go back to my sparc64 porter status
<fabbione> exactly
<fabbione> we will not kill the team
<fabbione> nor how it works
<fabbione> we will just move people around on how it fits us better
<fabbione> but we can deload ourself from tracking upstreams
<fabbione> that is the most timeconsuming thing for me
<fabbione> any objection?
<zul> none here
<fabbione> mdz: do you think we missed something?
<fabbione> ok
<mdz> fabbione: I was not here for the beginning of the meeting, but your list from the CC meeting looked fine, so if you covered those things, I think it's OK
<fabbione> mdz: ok.. thanks for taking over the kernel from now
<mdz> fabbione: now??
<fabbione> please guys clap your hands to mdz :-)
* dilinger chuckles
<ogra> heh
<fabbione> ahha
<mdz> :-P
<fabbione> mdz: don't worry.. i still love you
<Mithrandir> mdz agreed to take over the kernel? ;P
<fabbione> I AM THE INSANE ONE!
<fabbione> THAT'S WHY THERE ARE ITALIANS IN THIS WORLD
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> guys thanks a lot
<zul> forza sparc...heh
* Mithrandir chuckles and goes to make food
<fabbione> mako: cya around and before saturday to prepare the documentation side of all this stuff
<fabbione> zul: right now it's the best one kernel wise :-)
* fabbione has finished
<zul> fabbione: well let me try to break it then :)
<fabbione> zul: it was the only arch that survived 2.6.9 -> 2.6.10 transition without any problem :-)
<fabbione> the others were all FTBFS
<zul> fabbione: thats because its sparc
<fabbione> zul, dilinger: please give me an ETA for the tool as soon as you can
<zul> sure we have to sit down and talk about it
<fabbione> remember that it needs to work on all the 6 arches
<fabbione> but if we can make it as generic as possible it would be better
<fabbione> considering that someone might have to run it on a different arch of the target
<fabbione> that's almost a requirement
<zul> is there a log of the community meeting somewhere?
<fabbione> zul: yes. http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
<zul> thanks muchly
<fabbione> zul: just one dir up to get the history from tomrrow :-)
<fabbione> i am off
<fabbione> cya around guys
<fabbione> thanks a lot for all your work
<mako> fabbione: yeah thanks fabbione, we'll talk
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-23
* lamont decides that he needs to stay home with the kids for a while this evening.
<lamont> mdz: dividing them up, eh?
<mdz> lamont: only ~35 to go
<lamont> heh
* lamont thinks his wife will like her new keyboard
<Kamion> mdz: what should I do with the linux-kernel-di-* merge?
<Kamion> close, I guess, but it'll keep coming back
<mdz> Kamion: no new bugs should be filed by MOM during the hoary cycle
<mdz> and also, it's in universe now (isn't it?) so MOM should never file a bug about it again
<lamont> hrm...  wvstreams appears to have dropped wvstreams-gtk package.
<lamont> wonder if I care...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 11 January 2005 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 25 January 2005 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
<OddAbe19> uptime 55s] 
<Kamion> OddAbe19: please disable such scripts, especially in this channel
<OddAbe19> i know, i'm sorry, i hit the wrong / auto complete
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-16
<sorush20> hi
<sorush20> anyone here 
<ajmitch> no, this channel is used for meetings
<sorush20> is there a meeting about making video communications more stablein ubuntu
<Riddell> sorush20: no, try bringing it up on the ubuntu-devel mailing list
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 11 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 12 Jan 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 13 Jan 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting  | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:irc.freenode.net] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 11 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 12 Jan 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 13 Jan 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting  | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council
<jelkner> happy new year everyone!
<kjcole> jelkner, call me. (202) 234-0213.  
<kjcole> (And to the rest of you "Hi".)
<JaneW> HELLO!
<JaneW> kjcole: are you a number now?
<juliux> hi JaneW 
<JaneW> kjcole: or is that only for jelkner? ;) 
<JaneW> hi juliux 
<JaneW> wow we have no meeting notes since 7 dec...
<JaneW> must fix that
<kjcole> JaneW, Hi.   (Asked jelkner to phone me before showtime.)
<juliux> hi mhz 
<JaneW> kjcole: got it, was just being silly
<kjcole> Morning, mhz.
* mhz is MauricioHernandez
<JaneW> hi mhz
<mhz> hi you all guys
<sivang> edubuntu meeting right?
<jelkner> mhz: buenos dias! (btw. still waiting for edubuntu-es log ;-)
<JaneW> mhz: lol, we do know who you are by now ;)
<kjcole> JaneW, my cylinders aren't all firing this early. ;-)
<mhz> jelkner: it was happily sent days ago
<mhz> ;)
<ogra_ibook> hi all
<mhz> JaneW: hehehe
<jelkner> mhz: oops, i may have dropped it :-(
<JaneW> sivang: yes
<JaneW> is ogra in the house?
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, nope
<ogra_ibook> :P
* mhz checks logs just in case, for jelkner tranquility
<JaneW> ogra_ibook: :P
<kjcole> JaneW, He was disguised as ogra_ibook.
<JaneW> ogra_ibook: why you making me type so much more with the _ibook part? ;)
<ogra_ibook> this machine also highlights on "ogra" ;)
<JaneW> ok, what's news? I am a bit out of the loop and am struggling to catch up this week...
<ogra_ibook> edubuntu-desktop should be installable again by today :)
<JaneW> ogra: good them ogra you'll if you don't mind ...
<ogra_ibook> the ltsp sound stuff is in the archive and fully implemented since yesterday
<JaneW> ogra: can you give a summary of what's happened since the week before Christmas please?
<ogra_ibook> i worked on the several ltsp tasks ... the ubuntu innstaller broke completely before christmas dur to the second stage disappearing
<ogra_ibook> this should be solved now
<ogra_ibook> as well as the several *-desktop packages were uninstallable
<ogra_ibook> most of my work during the holidays and the week before went into powerpc support
<JaneW> ogra: ok so how are we looking schedule wise?
<ogra_ibook> so we have working ppc now (pending upload)
<ogra_ibook> sound is in, parts of the low memory stuff are ready 
<JaneW> ogra: also did you see the e-mail re Tollef *maybe* looking at TC Local deivices?
<ogra_ibook> yes, that would be a nice task for the sprint
<JaneW> ogra: also I noticed a lot of your specs were pushed back to drafting :/
<ogra_ibook> but we're past UVF at the sprint already 
<JaneW> ogra: think Tollef could do it? and in time for Dapper?
<ogra_ibook> nope, sound is implemented
<JaneW> ogra: right
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, only the dbus parts
<ogra_ibook> the ltsp stuff is for my desk
<ogra_ibook> (local devices)
<JaneW> ogra: have you set the sound spec to implemented yet?
<ogra_ibook> not yet, i had to clearify something with pitti before (which i did 30min ago)
<ogra_ibook> it will be set to implemented today
<ogra_ibook> the faster startup spec is approved and partially implemented
<ogra_ibook> err
<JaneW> ogra: ok we'll clarify the statuses at the dapper meeting tomorrow and set accordingly...
<ogra_ibook> that was memory usage, sorry
<ogra_ibook> the faster startup spec needs a minor change
<flint> kinda like watching a tennis match so far...  Startup time is not as vital as local storage or sound even.
<ogra_ibook> all three will be dione before UVF
<ogra_ibook> flint, local device support is and always was a low priority spec
<JaneW> ogra: what's your gut feel atm? better that for breezy?
<JaneW> s/that/than
<ogra_ibook> faster startup always was my highest priority
<ogra_ibook> yup, sure
<JaneW> i.e. are we on track and ready to deliver to required milstones?
<flint> why?  in a classroom environment, the desktops are only started once...
<ogra_ibook> even if we dont make the device support for dapper it will be a lot better
<JaneW> we were the 'black' sheep last time
<ogra_ibook> mdz knows that
<flint> JaneW, this time we can be the grey sheep!!!
<ogra_ibook> flint, i dont set the priority of the specs
<JaneW> flint: I am getting there believe me...
<flint> and I never figured out who did.  all I can do is comment.
<ogra_ibook> flint, and the other specs did eat a lot of time, especially the low memory stuff 
<mhz> flint: but that would also spend more 'energy' and if so, it's less environment friendly ;)
<ogra_ibook> flint, mdz sets the ppriority for me
<flint> the memory was actually important.  I know, and I suppose I can go and wine at him :^)
<JaneW> yes priorities are set by management, and at this latish stage we can not be arguing them anymore
<jelkner> when will we know if local devices will make dapper?
<JaneW> we can however keep trying to achieve as much as possible, allowing us to GET to the low prio items.
<jelkner> the reason i'm asking is that our loco team is working with a school to setup a lab
<ogra_ibook> jelkner, its unlikely they will make it unless we get an exeption from UVF for ltsp
<JaneW> jelkner: I sent 2 e-mails this morning, I will let you know if/when I get a response from mdz
<jelkner> thanks!
<ogra_ibook> i rather want to make the stuff thats partially there now to work 100% than having all of it at 70%
<JaneW> jelkner: someone has offered to *maybe* pick it up, but he also has other priorities so once again it's mdz's call
<JaneW> and as CTO it's his prerogative
<ogra_ibook> and he will unlikely do the ltsp side of it
<JaneW> ogra: how much work is that by your estimation?
<JaneW> ogra: and if Tollef can do the rest how feasible is it that you would even get to the LTSP side?
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, i doubt its doable in UVF time 
<JaneW> FWIW I agree that it's required and pretty important from a functionality POV
<JaneW> damn
<ogra_ibook> if we can get an exception until feature freeze it will be fine
<mhz> JaneW: what does FWIW stand for?
<ogra_ibook> we naever made any promises for this spec
<jelkner> JaneW: from the field, I have to repeat that without local devices, we don't have edubuntu
<jelkner> for a lot of folks, anyway
<jelkner> we have a school in dc that wants edubuntu
<jelkner> but not without local devices
<jelkner> no way to save data
<ogra_ibook> jelkner, you repeated *several* times that we wont have any stand in the field without low memory support
<flint> JaneW, I have asked this before, but what url has the priority list printed?
<jelkner> ogra_ibook, that's true too
<jelkner> for many labs we have running classic ltsp now
<ogra_ibook> jelkner, my day only has 24h
<jelkner> i understand
<jelkner> so you need help
<jelkner> i don't mean to be a pain
<ogra_ibook> and i told you in the beginning after UBZ that its not on top of my prio list
<jelkner> i'm just telling you the straight truth from users
<JaneW> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable
<JaneW> FWIW = For What It's Worth
<ogra_ibook> yes, and i dont want to support a broken or partially broken implementation for 5 years ...
<jelkner> so the real issue than, is whether edubuntu is a priority at all
<ogra_ibook> everything we do during this release cycle needs to be 100% and rock solid
<flint> Here is what your direction has been set to:
<flint> 1. Low Memory
<flint> 2. Fast Startup
<flint> 3. Sound 
<flint> 4. Local Devices
<mhz> JaneW: thx, kjcole had just told me
<flint> Here is what is needed
<flint> 1. Low Memory
<flint> 2. Local Devices
<flint> 3. Sound 
<flint> 4. Fast Startup
<ogra_ibook> flint, but thats not the reality
<jelkner> i agree with flint
<JaneW> ogra: is fast startup linked to ubuntu faster startup?
<jelkner> and sound is done
<JaneW> in which case I understand the priority
<ogra_ibook> yes
<JaneW> if not, I don't really....
<flint> ogra_ibook, I am merely making the observation.  I believe that this is the facts of this prioritization
<ogra_ibook> 10-20% are done by Keybuks changes
<jelkner> fast startup was never a major concern of anyone i've worked with
<JaneW> Ok, well decreasing the startup time is a major goal of ubuntu for dapper, we can't mess with that
<jelkner> at all edubuntu sites running here, the machines run all the time
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, getting down from 2minutes + startup time is a very important thing
<jelkner> libraries, community centers, schools
<flint> hang on, there are no rank orders on the priority list beyond "low" "medium" and "high" 
<JaneW> ok, so you may be booting once a day maybe? not for each lesson or session?
<jelkner> it doesn't matter how long it takes to boot (well, an hour would be unacceptable ;-)
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, the regressions in ltsp are totally different fromm ubuntu itself, thus its only 10-20% i can get from keybuks changes
<JaneW> fint: and essential
<jelkner> none of the intances in dc boot more than once a day
<jelkner> most less than that
<JaneW> ogra: what's your personal opinion here? which is more important?
<flint> ogra_ibook, there is no numeric rank order of priorities, is there jane?
<JaneW> flint: no
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, all other stuff apart from local devices, since it wont be 100% stable and ready 
<flint> JaneW, i grant you essential...(and existential :^)
<jelkner> without low memory support, we could not upgrade from k12ltsp to edubuntu in 2 existing labs
<jelkner> without local devices, most folks don't want edubuntu
<flint> note that in a classroom you boot the silly workstations never if they are working correctly.
<JaneW> Mithrandir: ping
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, imho shipping all the other parts 100% reliable is more important than having local deviaces in and producing a hell lot of bugreports we cant fix during the next 5 years
<kjcole> flint, she meant "essential", "high", "medium", "low".
<ogra_ibook> jelkner, thats not true
<JaneW> Mithrandir: sorry to bother, but can you comment on ThinclientLocal Devices please? we are in an Edubuntu meeting...
<ogra_ibook> jelkner, we have a ton of happy users that work fine with the breezy implementation which doesnt have any addons at all
<jelkner> ogra_ibook, what's not true
<JaneW> ogra: will it be very buggy if implemented?
<JaneW> ogra: was that the reason for not prioritising? Forgive me I don;t know the technical details here...
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, thats hard to predict, but it willl take a lot of time to get it right
<jelkner> ogra_ibook, we would have *way* more if we had local devices
<Mithrandir> JaneW: pong
<jelkner> you can't say it is not true just because we have x number of happy users
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, thats a question only mdz can answer
<mhz> I understand jelkner and flint points very well, and agrre with them on the fact that local device support is very 'convincing' issue for modern end-users. But can't the dc instances start using edubuntu and wait 6 months or less?
<JaneW> Mithrandir: hi, thanks.
<JaneW> Mithrandir: sorry to bother, but can you comment on ThinclientLocal Devices please? we are in an Edubuntu meeting...
<Mithrandir> JaneW: I think it's doable for dapper, but it requires somebody to have time for it allocated.
<ogra_ibook> jelkner, and you cant say we dont get users because local devices are missing ;)
<jelkner> what about the 3*x number of users we don't have because we don't have local devices?
<jelkner> i know we are missing users because of this
<flint> kjcole, gotcha so the rank order contrast would look like this, Here is what your direction has been set to:
<flint> essential. Low Memory
<flint> high. Fast Startup
<flint> medium. Sound 
<flint> low. Local Devices
<JaneW> Mithrandir: sorry to put you on the spot, but I am trying to establish if it is in any way possible to get the spec implemented suuccesfully and entirely and stability for dapper
<flint> Here is what is needed
<flint> essential. Low Memory
<flint> high. Local Devices
<flint> medium. Sound 
<flint> low. Fast Startup
<Mithrandir> JaneW: I think it is.
<jelkner> i have potential users ready for me to setup labs, but not without a way for there students to save data
<jelkner> i'm also catching a bit of hell from current users who keep asking me "when can we save data?"
<ogra_ibook> Mithrandir, i'm fine with putting time into the ltsp side if someone cares for dbus and the g-v-m side
<JaneW> Mithrandir: are you proposing doing the LTSP parts as well?
<jelkner> i keep telling them "patients, its coming"
<jelkner> that's why i'm such a pain around this issue
<JaneW> jelkner: is it a hospital?
<juliux> jelkner, at the university here we have sun thinclients and there is no local device support availiable, because the admins have disabled it
<Mithrandir> JaneW: but it requires somebody who understands dbus &c to do it, it's probably tricky to get correct.
<jelkner> juliux: yes, students have network storage
<ogra_ibook> jelkner, why do you do that ? i told you long time ago its not reliably fixed yet
<jelkner> so local devices are not a problem
<JaneW> Mithrandir: right, and it's mdz's call whether we can even try...
<jelkner> common in university settings
<flint> the folks who use this thing have a perception of the priority order that contrasts the project management.
<jelkner> not common in elemantary schools, libraries, community centers
<juliux> jelkner, but not everybody need it
<JaneW> flint: huh?
<Mithrandir> JaneW: yes.  My out-of-the-air guess is a week to get it working somewhat, double that or so to get it working nicely.
<jelkner> juliux: i never said everyone needed it
<jelkner> i don't, for example
<jelkner> i did say most do
<jelkner> and the communities i feel we are trying to reach need it most
<flint> JaneW, local storage is a higher priortiy for the users than say sound.
<ogra_ibook> Mithrandir, do you agree asking for a UVF exception and extend the time until feature freeze would be enough
<JaneW> Mithrandir: ok, we'll take it further with mdz. Thanks.
<flint> by users i mean line teachers in a classroom.
<Mithrandir> ogra_ibook: yes, it's not something which can be done before UVF.
<ogra_ibook> Mithrandir, thats what i would go for ...
<JaneW> flint: no not really
<ogra_ibook> oki
<Mithrandir> JaneW: if I were to do it, I would prefer to do the whole delivery, since coordinating with oneself is less work than coordinating with somebody else.  You might need to fight with mdz/Kamion about taking time away from working on live cd/installer stuff.
<juliux> flint, i think sound is more neede as local device support
<kjcole> Stating the obvious perhaps, but here in the US, there are enough computers that students (and others) will need access to their materials away from the lab.  Especially if they are doing "home" homework.
<JaneW> Mithrandir: erk, isn't liveCD installer more NB?
<ogra_ibook> i thought it was taking time from network auth 
<flint> juliux, actually the last thing you need in a classroom is more sounds :^)
<JaneW> flint: head phones
<Mithrandir> JaneW: I'm hacking on some not-live installer bits to get better keyboard support into the live cd
<flint> JaneW, or another think for the child to loose/mis-adjust
<juliux> flint, but you also dont want that the students can bring there one programms on a usb stick
<Mithrandir> JaneW: I'm not touching espresso, though I think I shall look at it at some point.
<juliux> flint, i am a student and students love it to attact the lan
<JaneW> Mithrandir / ogra: could you 2 have a word with mdz if you see him later, and we can discuss again in the Dapper meeting tomorrow morning?
<jelkner> juliux: why not?
<Mithrandir> JaneW: mdz is around now
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, yup
<flint> juliux, actually, if the kid shows up with the game he just wrote in python, we get down on our knees and praise god.
<flint> is mdz up?
<ogra_ibook> he's awake ? 
<JaneW> isn't it a bit early still?
<flint> I will call him and get him on the channel is you all want
<ogra_ibook> havent seen a trace
<jelkner> people must have a way to save data, simple as that
<juliux> webspace?
<flint> it is 4:49 local time Los Angeles
<JaneW> ok anyway we have discussed this long enough here, we'll speak to mdz, and let you know what the verdict is.
<jelkner> juliux: fine for privileded users, not fine for those who don' t have it
<JaneW> what's next?
<juliux> jelkner, most have it
<jelkner> not true
<jelkner> perhaps in your setting
<juliux> jelkner, every student have one
<ogra_ibook> the edubuntu-artwork package is ready so far
<jelkner> not here
<juliux> jelkner, also in us
<JaneW> ogra: great, you still need artwork though right?
<ogra_ibook> it will hit the archive today or tomorrow with the age selection built in
<jelkner> i am in us
<JaneW> ogra: and will you have several selections after install? as discussed previously?
<ogra_ibook> but indeed i need some artwork to put in :)
<JaneW> ogra: great thanks
<jelkner> and most students do not have their own web space
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, sudo dpkg-reconfigure edubuntu-artwork will give you 3 choices 
<juliux> jelkner, but webspace from the university
<mhz> ogra: there are some backgrounds almost ready to be tested/used 
<jelkner> juliux: yes, university students do
<mhz> 1 for each age selection
<ogra_ibook> mhz, i have to wait for something official
<jelkner> not elementary students, community folks, etc
<mhz> (they're supposed to be ready by friday afternoon)
<mhz> ogra: ahhhhh
<JaneW> mhz: are you going to put them on the art site?
<mhz> JaneW: of course :)
<ogra_ibook> i'm happy to add community stuff now, but dont be disappointed if it gets replaced by something
<JaneW> ogra: but I think we'll only get one official wall paper, for the default install
<mhz> ogra: i know the drill ;)
<JaneW> ogra / mhz: we can and should have community contributed stuff too
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, i still have no answer from silbs about that
<ogra_ibook> JaneW, i asked if we get one or three designs
<JaneW> mhz: yes we will need to explicitly run them by the powers that be this time though, so avoid a lynching ;)
<mhz> JaneW / ogra : we are working on GTK theme drafts 
<JaneW> s/so/to
<JaneW> mhz: YAY :)
<flint> ok, i just talked to mdz.  
<ogra_ibook> mhz, we want to kepp the default theme from ubuntu ... 
<ogra_ibook> mhz, at least for the gnome desktop 
<flint> the deal here is that it is not a priority issue.  
<kjcole> juliux, Universities have had computers for centuries, and are generally well ahead of what the K-12 crowd has in the way of computers, network access, tech support people, etc.  One look at the apps labeled "education" in Edubuntu tells you who the current target audience is, and it ain't university students...
<mhz> ogra: okis, I long ago understood there will be no 'coordination' with 'central work'
<mhz> :(
<flint> he feels that no one has figured out how to do local devices to his satisfaction.
<ogra_ibook> (gtk that is)
<ogra_ibook> mhz, thats not true 
<flint> btw do not call him again, he is "entertaining"...
<ogra_ibook> mhz, but changing the gtk theme was never in scope
<mhz> ogra: it is and you just told you have not 'heard' from slbs
<mhz> ogra:  ? IIRC, we said (looong ago) "we need 3 themes"
<ogra_ibook> mhz, nope, its not, we can ship a lot of community stuff
<ogra_ibook> mhz, its just that the default will be a professionally designed one
<mhz> ogra: yes, we can ship but we are not working "coordinated" with slbs, are we?
<ogra_ibook> and i dont know yet if all three defaults will be or only one
<ogra_ibook> but beyond that, we can put a ton of wallpapers into the artwork package or additional stuff to select from
<mhz> yes, thats cool, i am not complaining :) I am just saying that I have no clue what slbs and the designers are working on
<JaneW> ogra: do you think so? I woiuld think it should look a bit distinct...
<mhz> no roadmap or anything
<ogra_ibook> mhz, silbs works with an art agency
<ogra_ibook> mhz, there is the dapper release schedule ...
<ogra_ibook> it should have artwork deadlines
<mhz> ogra: heheh, yes, I know about the shcedule
<mhz> but i'll put it this way: Here, in this meeting we are talking as Edubuntu community to work on stuff or help
<ogra_ibook> dont care what silbs and the designers are working on, just go on with your stuff ... as i said, i think we'll have enough space on the Cd this time to add artwork
<mhz> I have never heard of slbs plans on design
<JaneW> flint: you saying it's not worth us talking to mdz about the issue?
<flint> JaneW, No.  Read carefully.
<mhz> ogra: exactly, I appreciate you can have some room for artwork, hence we are working on 3 gtk drafts
<JaneW> flint he feels that no one has figured out how to do local devices to his satisfaction.
<mhz> ogra: but i am just saying "I know we (commnity) dont work in coordination with 'official hired artwork plans'
<flint> JaneW, yes, exactly! Zimmerman says that the current spec is incomplete
<ogra_ibook> mhz, the -artwork package isnt prepared to handle gtk themes and was never intended to do so
<mhz> ogra: ooops, i didnt know that
<flint> if the specification for local devices was complete we could move forward.
<jelkner> i gotta run guys, same time next week?
<ogra_ibook> mhz, thats why i said the above :)
<flint> indeed elkner, do not give up on what you need to teach.
<mhz> and then, JaneW and ogra, what should i understand by "we need 3 age-splittted-artwork" ?
<ogra_ibook> flint, Mithrandir knows how to implement it ... we'd have to sort it in a meeting with mdz
<ogra_ibook> mhz, the artwork package will offer to select one of three age categories
<ogra_ibook> (post install)
<mhz> ogra: okis, and what will that include? only wallpapers?
<ogra_ibook> involving icons, splash and wallpaper
<mhz> ahh
<flint> ogra_ibook, can Mithrandir write a specification to satisfy mdz?
<mhz> hmmm, Icons will take much longer
<ogra_ibook> gah, i have a horrible lag here ...
<mhz> unless we use Tango, Gartoon and other
<ogra_ibook> flint, i can write it after having a meeting
<ogra_ibook> mhz, yes, thats the plan
<flint> ogra_ibook, do you have the time to do this?  I can help with specs...think of me as your secretary!
<JaneW> we are ging to have to try to have one of these meetings where we don't spend an hour + arguing, but rather try to collaborate... that would be a novel change .
<ogra_ibook> flint, we had a wonderful clear spec after the first BOF meeting ... that was going a bit confusing during the next ones
<flint> ogra_ibook, that is correct, imagine me in a short dress on your lap....hmmm.
<ogra_ibook> eeek
<JaneW> we haven't even discussed the cook book yet.
<JaneW> and I fear the bickering puts people off...
<JaneW> flint: arrgh!
<ogra_ibook> flint, will you carry pompoms ? 
<flint> kevin is here and much progress has been made in this area...
<flint> ogra_ibook, pompoms only if you are good, and bring cigars.
<kjcole> My cue, I guess...
<ogra_ibook> sure i will :)
<mhz> JaneW: true but if not here, when?
<mhz> :)
<mhz> JaneW: the good thing is we are reaching agreements ;)
<mhz> or so it seems
<JaneW> mhz: granted, but this happens each week. We really need a good face to face pounch up to get it all out ;)
<mhz> heheh, indeed
<kjcole> Cookbook: Now more than halfway through the first pass.  Also, with the help of ogra, jblack, lifeless and flint, I've been getting a much better handle on how to use bzr.
<mhz> cool!, Kamion 
<mhz> cool!, kjcole 
<mhz> (this autocompleting!)
<JaneW> kjcole: excellent :))
<mhz> (it should present matches before)
<JaneW> kjcole: how much editting is it needing?
<flint> and do not forget the help from mhz!!!
<ogra_ibook> mhz, it does if you dont hit enter to quickly :)
<kjcole> I see launchapd is now tracking our revisions too (as of yesterday, it appears).  I put the branch in there while we were sitting in Montreal.
<mhz> flint: I have not been of any help yet
<flint> mhz, mhz has been of excellent help setting up a bzr repository for the use of the cookbook project.
<mhz> flint: I will. jelkner and kjcole will let me in once they finish 1st part
<JaneW> mhz: just saw your pic, you look quite a lot like Jeff Waugh ;)
<flint> mhz, you already have access to the depository, say the word and I put you back in the sudoers file...
<mhz> JaneW: is that a good or bad thing :) ?
<kjcole> JaneW, I wish we'd gotten to this before jelkner had to split.  We have very similar styles regarding wording, but different priorities.  Since jelkner has actually published and I have not, I bow to his priorities.
<flint> JaneW, do not scare the poor man off!
<mhz> ogra_ibook: ohh, it does it, thx
<mhz> (tab Tab)
<JaneW> kjcole: yes sorry I wasn;t watching the clock closely, we'll def do cook book first next week
<JaneW> kjcole: does it cause conflict between you at all?
<mhz> kjcole: wise it is, unless until cookbook is out and then you would also stop being a 'padawan' :D
<flint> JaneW, this priority stuff had to take priority :^)
<kjcole> JaneW, His approach is "Keep as much of the tuxLab Cookbook as possible.  Whittle it down.  When finished whittling, add in material specific to Dapper.  Release.  Add in more "How to teach usung Edubuntu."  Release again."
<mhz> lguerra: bienvenido!!!
<lguerra> Hi mhz
<flint> my evil contribution was to look over the cookbook outline...and revise it for use on planet earth.
<mhz> JaneW: lguerra is being the only 'other' active person in #edubuntu-es, very willing to help and test
<JaneW> kjcole: seems to make sense...
<kjcole> JaneW, Not much conflict, no.  I just worry that people might be expecting marvelous changes from what we both already consider to be a very fine piece of work we've started from.
<flint> lguerra, any friend of Mauritzo is a friend of us.
<lguerra> tks Flint
<JaneW> kjcole: no I don;t think major changes are expected, we just have to makes sure it is relevent and there are no weird tuxlab references that make no sense in the edubuntu context
<flint> JaneW, that is the most dissapointing part, there is little conflict.  I feel about conflict and arguement like a vampire feels about blood....
<JaneW> flint: I know but you are into S&M
<mhz> lguerra: we are now listening about kjcole and jelkner advances on CookBook for Edubuntu
<JaneW> flint: and swinging, and beastility and who know what else...
<mhz> flint: thx
<flint> seriously, the real challange is that the tuxlab book was written very closely to the Shuttleworth foundation requirements in SA.  This must be much more general.
<JaneW> flint: agreed
<kjcole> ogra_ibook, I had sent you the LTSP startup stuff from the tuxLab Cookbook for you to revise.  Had a free second to work miracles there as well as everywhere else you've been working miracles?
<mhz> jsgotangco: wb
<JaneW> hi jsgotangco 
<flint> JaneW, one thing you could really help with...the graphics in the tuxlab book are...what is the word?
<JaneW> flint: cool
<JaneW> ?
<ogra_ibook> heh
<JaneW> flint: what do you need?
<flint> JaneW, is Johnathan Carter on the line?
* jsgotangco tiptoes into meeting...
<JaneW> flint: not sure...
<JaneW> highvoltage: ping
<JaneW> flint: you can be candid
<flint> JaneW, I just do not want to hurt highvoltages feelings, he is a crack kinda guy...
<JaneW> Jonathan didn;t draw them anyway, there was an illustrator
<jsgotangco> crack?
<flint> there is a pix of RMS in the original that must be seen to be believed!!!
<JaneW> who got paid
<flint> JaneW, ok get the money back.
<flint> JaneW, now.
<JaneW> I think it was meant to be amusing and a bit tongue in cheek
<kjcole> JaneW, jelkner likes them.  I find them to be "consistent" which is a big plus, and "gentle" which is also okay.  Am I thrilled by them? Not exactly, but no real complaints.  (I'm easy.)
<flint> JaneW, darlin' I mean "damn"
<JaneW> kjcole: ITA with your interpretation
<ogra_ibook> i'm not sure we have the allowance to ship the graphics 
<mhz> lol
<mhz> I can place a picture of myself
<JaneW> ogra: I think we can... but I'll need to dbl check
<jsgotangco> what's the status of the manual?
<flint> ogra_ibook, me I want that eurotrash look, kinda bauhaus...
<mhz> I have gained more wight last 2 months
<ogra_ibook> flint, cool !
<mhz> and from a 10 mt distance, I can play RMS very well
<ogra_ibook> flint, make some drawings ;)
<flint> ogra_ibook, exactly!
<mhz> ogra: and you can have my permission to include it
<flint> mhz, you probably do not like tea and bathe regularly.  we will consider you... maybe!
<mhz> heheh
<kjcole> ogra_ibook: LTSP (moo cow?) bootup walkthrough? 
<ogra_ibook> nah
<ogra_ibook> not needed for us
<flint> JaneW, seriously, there is a crying need for an artistic theme here.
<ogra_ibook> as well as only lts.conf settings we support should show up in the cookbook
<flint> JaneW, were you involved in the original tuxlab book?
<JaneW> flint: again I don' think it's a priority, but if someone does it, great we'lll be very happy.
* jsgotangco sits in a chair
<JaneW> flint: no not at all, I first heard of it at the London Summit
<flint> JaneW, think of the book as print advertising for the project.
<kjcole> ogra_ibook: Dunno who we need authority from on graphics but the I've been in touch with the original author and the illustrator and both gave us their blessings.
<JaneW> flint: which is where I first got to know Jonathan and Hilton too
<mhz> flint: we could also help with those graphics as soon as we get time to read and work on it
<ogra_ibook> kjcole, ok, thats enough 
<JaneW> ok oiur time is up, anything else/
<JaneW> ?
<ogra_ibook> i was remembering the original was under a strange license
<jsgotangco> :)
<flint> i suppose my thought here is that the default themes of edubuntu should closely match the illustration style of the book.
<JaneW> ogra: that was the draft it wasn;t released yet
<ogra_ibook> flint, so you want RMs wallpapers o_O
<jsgotangco> err what's the status of the manual? (nobody answered)
<ogra_ibook> s/RMs/RMS
<mhz> ogra: LOL!
<flint> ogra_ibook, ouch!
<kjcole> ogra_ibook: The walkthrough doesn't tell people what to do, it just explains (in horrid detail) what happens during the boot.  Since that's all changed (according to jelkner) he wanted you to revise that.
<mhz> jsgotangco: i have no clue yet
<flint> jsgotangco, the draft is out on bzr.
<jsgotangco> url?
<mhz> hmm, i am also a little lazy, url ?
<flint> http://docbook.flint.com.  kevin is this correct?
<JaneW> Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License
<mhz> lguerra: that is it :)
<ogra_ibook> kjcole, you wont see anything in the bootprocess except the progressbar of usplash once i'm done
<jsgotangco> oh its in docbook?
<flint> oops https://docbox.flint.com kevin help a fella here!
<kjcole> Lauchpad still points to my copy.  I'll point it at docbox later this morning.
<ogra_ibook> kjcole, indeed you can describe whats going on behind the scenes
<flint> i will endeavor to get the silly url correct
<kjcole> ogra_ibook: That's what the original did: The behind the scenes stuff.
<ogra_ibook> yup
<flint> my book will be called "the making of the edubuntu cookbook" it will be a  horror novel.
<kjcole> flint, FITS
<ogra_ibook> hehe
<ogra_ibook> i'll buy one
<jsgotangco> NOTICE TO USERS
<jsgotangco> This computer system is the private property of its owner, whether individual, corporate or government. It is for authorized use only. Users (authorized or unauthorized) have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy.
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> with a round shiny edubuntu logo
<kjcole> jsgotangco, hold.  flint was a wee bit premature with that announcement.
<flint> actually elkner and kevin seem to have this matter well in hand...
<flint> kjcole, sorry kevin, you are correct. it is not soup yet.
<jsgotangco> Flint Information Technology Services (FITS)
<jsgotangco> Montpelier, VT 05602-8361
<JaneW> flint: sorry but that is SUCH A United States type warning!
<kjcole> jsgotangco: CURRENTLY the bzr repository is at http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/Edubuntu/Cookbook but I never wanted to keep it there as it is a Gallaudet University machine which I have no rights to make a public repository.
<flint> jsgotangco, i suppose i need to go look at this thing...every morning something new...
* JaneW logs off IMMEDIATELY
<kjcole> jelkner keeps asking if we can have the master repository on launchpad.  As I understand things launchpad would only be a mirror.
<mhz> flint: and that url is ready to be used as bzr branch?
<jsgotangco> why not use supermirror?
<flint> hey at least it is working?  who knows how to use the supermirror? 
<mhz> .oO(first time I saw 'branch'  I thought you meant brakfast + lunch , or a late morning breakfast)
<flint> JaneW, I did not put the silly thing up!  this is what happens when you play with other kids...
<kjcole> jsgotangco: is supermirror different from launchpad?
<highvoltage> JaneW: pong
<JaneW> highvoltage: hello
<highvoltage> flint: yes, i am now
<jsgotangco> kjcole, supermirror is basically part of LP
<ogra_ibook> jsgotangco, supermirror isnt ready yet afaik
<jsgotangco> (or something like that)
<JaneW> highvoltage: flint was discussing the cookbook images
<kjcole> JaneW: My fault.  I put that there, since I'm not certain how docbox will ultimately be used (other than as the Cookbook repository) and it's flint's box.
<highvoltage> meeting still on?
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> hmm
<flint> highvoltage, johnathan, I was disparaging the tuxbook portrait of RMS...
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> just an update on the cookbook from TSF side, if I may.
<highvoltage> (and it's jonathan, btw)
<JaneW> linus's one isn;t too bad
<kjcole> JaneW: And I know flint to have something of a background in computer security.  Last but not least "Flint Information Technology Services (FITS)" is a bit of an inside joke.
<highvoltage> the cookbook is practically being re-written.
<flint> highvoltage, sorry, I always do that, and it is completely wrong.
<JaneW> kjcole: yes I noticed that too!
<flint> highvoltage, johnathan....gotta work on that.
<JaneW> highvoltage: huh? What? Why?
* mhz got TOTALLY lost now
<highvoltage> we're updating a huge amount of the content, which we'll give over to copywriters who will merge it with the first version of the book.
<highvoltage> everything will be available in docbook.
<highvoltage> flint: no problem :)
<kjcole> highvoltage: ????
<JaneW> flint: J O N A T H A N !
<flint> kjcole, excellent work ont the repository...
<highvoltage> flint: you're the only person in the world i'll excuse for that
<flint> JaneW, ok I feel guilty...
<highvoltage> now that I'm here (and sorry for just jumping in like this)
<flint> highvoltage, thanks for your kind indulgence...
<highvoltage> i sent the request for the drupel site on http://proto.edubuntu.org
<highvoltage> when people get back into work mode we can get our drupal site nicely set up.
<JaneW> highvoltage: yipee
<mhz> kjcole: sorry, CookBook is not the one we needed? 
<flint> highvoltage, we have the edubuntu cookbook in a bzr repository, since you are its mother I will get you an account on the site if you want it.
<highvoltage> JaneW: i was wondering, perhaps we should do the new website launch with the next release again?
<highvoltage> (for maximum effect)
<highvoltage> flint: thank you, that will be good
<jsgotangco> +1
<JaneW> highvoltage: yes good idea, that worked well, and we got good traffic
<flint> highvoltage, i have been playing with drupal for a lamp thing it is not bad.
<JaneW> highvoltage: can you co-ord the necessary again?
<highvoltage> JaneW: yes
<highvoltage> we also have an increase in the amount of people interested in helping with content on the website.
<kjcole> God I hate IRC sometimes.  highvoltage: I thought jelkner and I were working on the cookbook as we've been meeting every sunday...
<jsgotangco> content - wiki pages?
<JaneW> excellent
<highvoltage> i have received plenty e-mails and I advise people to join the web team on launchpad, so when the drupal site is up, they will all be commisioned to start writing specific parts and work on some sub-projects.
<JaneW> kjcole: I think highvoltage means THEIR version for tuxlabs - right?
<ogra> kjcole, he's talking about tuxlabs
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: not quite, but similar.
<JaneW> highvoltage: your re-write is for your own purposes right?
<highvoltage> sorry, yes.
<kjcole> Ahhhh, thanks for the clarification all
<jsgotangco> :/
<highvoltage> let me clarify, version 2 of the howto is for tuxlabs.
<highvoltage> and that's what we are working on at the foundation.
<flint> kjcole, this drupal input is a good thing...
* mhz is understanding a little more now
<JaneW> highvoltage: will your rewrite affect us at all? I.e. changes we should know about and could benefit from?
<highvoltage> however, we will use Edubuntu for installation in the new version, instead of Ubuntu+LTSP.org or K12LTSP.
<highvoltage> JaneW: yes.
<flint> highvoltage, i would like to have you look over the overall cookbook outline...
<ogra> highvoltage, then it would be desirable to work together on the new version i think
<highvoltage> it's not very friendly documentation, since we're relying on copywriters to do all the poetry,
<JaneW> highvoltage: well perhaps you should look at what 'we' (royal we) have done to adapt it ti edubuntu
<flint> highvoltage, oh so you don't want local storage either :^)
<highvoltage> and it's broken up in modules that doesn't /quite/ make sense at the moment
<ogra> flint, :P
<highvoltage> but i'll pass it on, there will be some value in it.
<flint> ogra, ok, i will try to be good...
<kjcole> (Anyway, as I was saying earlier, I put the repository out on my office desktop machine which Gallaudet would probably not be thrilled with, if they knew.  So, flint has set up docbox.flint.com, which is where launchpad will point shortly.)
<highvoltage> personally, I feel that this should have been a collaborative effort from the start, however, there are some people here who don't agree.
<jsgotangco> :/
<ogra> flint, else i'll steal your miniskirt and send you out to the public with only the pompoms
<mhz> highvoltage: so the idea is we will be using Drupal for the purposes of.... ?
<highvoltage> Next week though, I will talk to them again, snip some of this meeting to show that there *is* outside support.
<flint> highvoltage, the deal here is that you gotta do for Shuttleworth.
* mhz is not complaining
<flint> ogra, I have some big pompoms, also made of brass...
<highvoltage> flint: ok
<ogra> lol
<mhz> highvoltage: here?
<highvoltage> mhz: sorry, terribly distracted
<jsgotangco> bah 
<flint> highvoltage, the neat thing about drupal / bzr is we can have our cakes and eat them too.
<mhz> highvoltage: ohh, here = tuxlab ?
<highvoltage> mhz: that swiss guy (sorry, can't remember his name) pointed out some very good reasons to use drupal, so we agreed to try it out for the website
<highvoltage> mhz: here = at the foundation
<ogra> there is even a wikipage with the desired structure iirc
<mhz> highvoltage: okis, and Moin will be dropped then?
<flint> highvoltage, the tuxlabs book specified how to interact with the foundation as part of the install process.  you had standard hardware for servers.  things were much clearer than in the world.
<ogra> mhz, moin is the wiki and will stay
<highvoltage> mhz: mostly, although we'll keep the wiki, and we'll keep the moin "web" pages as a backup to drupal
* mhz got lost again
<highvoltage> mhz: just in case ogra's prophecy of an Edubuntu porn site comes true
<mhz> drupal will be for ....?
<highvoltage> mhz: the Edubuntu website
<flint> ogra, moin is not a bad thing either...
<ogra> mhz, we use moin for edu/ku/ubuntu as wiki and wont drop it
<mhz> isnt wiki = web site?
* mhz is terribly lost now, sorry
<ogra> mhz, for the website we currently have static pages
<highvoltage> mhz: not necassarily :)
<JaneW> highvoltage: Phillip
<ogra> mhz, we want a content management system so people can also edit the website
<mhz> ogra: ahhhhh! www.edubuntu.org
<flint> mhz, Mauritzo, what we have here is a potlatch.  or a battle of pleantful resources...
<ogra> mhz, so wiki == moin, website == drupal
<highvoltage> mhz: so the website will be used for fancy things, like photo galleries, static pages, feedback forms, etc. While the wiki will be used exactly as it is used now (basically)
<highvoltage> JaneW: yes, thanks.
* JaneW needs to go, have actually work to do... ;)
<mhz> highvoltage: / ogra: now I get it right!!!
<mhz> thx for the extra patience
<highvoltage> mhz: no problem
<JaneW> ack 3 days into the new year and all my typos are back...
<flint> and these subsidiary or development pages can be used at will
<mhz> www.edubuntu.org and wiki.edubuntu.org
<mhz> JaneW: this is also work. we are working
<mhz> :)\
<JaneW> mhz: I know ;)
<highvoltage> mhz: technically, i'm on work time now, so i'm avoiding work
<mhz> highvoltage: lol! you always with your sense of humour, good!
<flint> highvoltage, wait a minute, I am always in favor of acquiring resources in an unauthorized manner...
* kjcole finishes dressing and runs out the door... Bound for paying work once more...
<flint> thanks kevin!!!
<JaneW> highvoltage: but Vickis not there anymore so no problemo ;)
<highvoltage> flint: perhaps that's why I like your style so much
<mhz> highvoltage: i do not understand why we have http://wiki.edubuntu BUT https://wiki.ubuntu (notice the https)
<JaneW> kjcole: you been naked all this time?
<highvoltage> JaneW: yes, we are taking over. and Zelda is grrreat
<flint> highvoltage, thanks ma man... anyway boys and girls, lets blow this pop stand till next week.
<mhz> highvoltage: could we have them equal
<highvoltage> mhz: what do you mean?
<mhz> both http or https
<highvoltage> mhz: i can access http://wiki.edubuntu.com fine.
<mhz> me too
<flint> mhz, Mauritzo http or https, it matters little...the apache locks them together as a default.
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ works fine as well
<mhz> really??????
<highvoltage> works for me.
<ogra> https should automatically be used if youre logged in
<mhz> http://wiki.ubuntu ?
<highvoltage> that looks like an incomlete domain name :)
<flint> germans of course obsess about cryptography, they think it is cool :^)
<mhz> ogra: my url shows http://wiki. even after logging in
<flint> ogra, ...must be some german in me...
<ogra> flint, i'm no tyical german then :)
<mhz> highvoltage: i was lazzy to type thw whole thing :)
<flint> ogra, if germans like coffee then "Ich bein un berliner"
<ogra> flint, i'm just struggling with an answer to a request for hardened edubuntu 
<ogra> hehe
<flint> ogra, that is the silliest thing i have heard all morning...
<highvoltage> flint: what do you mean with a crack kind of guy? i'm not familiar with the expression
<ogra> lol, yes
<flint> highvoltage, are you back on the pipe again?
<highvoltage> flint: and you can always be honest with me, if you think that something i did is crap, feel free to express it any way you like :)
<ogra> highvoltage, try s/crack/crazy
<highvoltage> ogra: thanks for clearing that up :)
* JaneW starts fading this time of day... it's over 33 degs celcius in here
<ogra> oh, i wish the snow outside would finally melt :) 
<mhz> JaneW: it will be 34 C here in Chile too
<JaneW> not sure how much higher, cos my thermometer is off the scale...
<flint> highvoltage, johnathan, the writting is great, the RMS and Torvalds pix...well...
<highvoltage> JaneW: it's nice and air-conditioned here at the office :)
<highvoltage> flint: jonathan
<flint> highvoltage, you bad man...
<JaneW> it's a swiss thermometer and it reckons inside temps range from 8-30 only
<highvoltage> JaneW: not -8? :)
<JaneW> highvoltage: that's reason enough to drive 70km actually!
<flint> fyi i believe it is warm here in vermont. about 10 F.
<highvoltage> anyway, i'm busy sorting my internet connection out again, when that's back up i can be involved 100% again.
<JaneW> highvoltage: nah it's for indoor temps, mean to be climate controlled
<highvoltage> my time problems have basically been sorted out, so I won't be as scarce as I was since... well since the beginning :)
<mhz> JaneW: but my wife has bought a small pool and an 'amaca' (piece of handcraft made of cloth that you tie up with each top to a tree trank and you can then use it to swing and lay)
<highvoltage> and I also just want to say happy new year to everyone here, while we are still here.
<mhz> JaneW: so those 34 C will be more bearable
<flint> highvoltage, what did you think of the idea of having the books art match the product?
<ogra> oh, yes, happy new year ... forgot that as well
<highvoltage> flint: i'm all for it
<flint> mhz, she bought it but you probably had to set it up.
<mhz> flint: hehehehehe, nha, I was at the computer (AGAIN!!!)
<mhz> :D
<flint> highvoltage, that was basically my point.  Keep in mind how blown away we all were to see that there was any documentation when we got together in London.
<mhz> flint: she asked "would you help me" I said 'yes' but she never asked "please help me now"
<highvoltage> ogra: how do you feel about the overall status of Edubuntu at present?
<flint> mhz, soon you will obey without question...right jane?
<mhz> :)
<mhz> already do that
<ogra> highvoltage, very good
<JaneW> mhz: d'oh I have a pool right here, I am going to leap in quickly. bbiab
<mhz> i just take advantage of non well asked questions
<highvoltage> ogra: i'm very glad to hear that
<ogra> highvoltage, (jelkner and flint wil disagree, since we dont have local device support out of the box)
<highvoltage> ogra: tough
<highvoltage> (meant toung in cheek there)
<flint> highvoltage, change is not the provence of reasonable men...
<highvoltage> ogra: security issue? is it likely that it will have it in the release following dapper?
<ogra> indeed all the manual setups from ltsp-org work just fine for local devices, its just not there out of the box
<flint> highvoltage, and ollie, that this pig flies at all, that this dog can dance, it is a good thing.
<JaneW> ok, I am jumping ship. Bye!
<flint> JaneW, enjoy the pool.
<ogra> dapper+1 will have it in any case , we try to make up some dev time for it to happen for dapper, but no promises
<highvoltage> JaneW: cheers!
<highvoltage> ogra: not that I'm properly qualified to say this, but great job!
<mhz> okey YOU ALL guys, gotta get back to kitchen :)  ogra, we will continue working on  the themes draft (1st times for use playing with GTK) and 3 wallpapers for Eduuntu. Will LDM need backgrounds?
<highvoltage> ogra: edubuntu would have been a disaster if it weren't for you
<flint> gang I feel I contributed constructively by calling mdz at 4:30 AM and yelling at him...
<highvoltage> yes, and /me need to get back to work, ciao
<ogra> mhz, have a look, i dropped the fullscreen backgrounds from ldm ...
<flint> highvoltage, good to hear from you, do not be a stranger Johnathan!
* mhz hasnt seen dapper yet. I will soon
<ogra> mhz, it uses only the cropped logo and a background color now 
<mhz> better
<highvoltage> flihnt: ok!
<ogra> the fullscreen pic at 1600x1200 was simply to big and made the loading slow
<flint> ogra, ollie i should have my evaluation space set up by next week.
<ogra> cool
<ogra> looks like we'll have flight3 very soon
<Treenaks> ogra: cool!
<mhz> ogra: shall I just get the edubuntu-desktop source and edubuntu-artwork? 
<ogra> for ldm ? 
<ogra> nope
<flint> ok I am out of here!
<ogra> you need the ldm source which is in the ltsp source
<mhz> ogra: oh, ok
<ogra> lets move over to #edubuntu 
<mhz> okis
* mhz closes
<hno73> hello
<hno73> sorry I'm very very late
<hno73> looks like I missed it. oops
<dholbach> edubuntu meeting?
<dholbach> hi hno73 :)
<ogra_ibook> naah, that was at 12:00 UTC :)
<hno73> dholbach: accessibility meeting
<dholbach> hno73: there was none
<hno73> ah, ok
<hno73> that's not so bad then
<dholbach> yeah
* hno73 just wonders if there would have been one if he wasn't late :(
<hno73> the logs aren't that up to date yet AFAICT
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-17
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  12 Jan 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 12 Jan 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Jan 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting  | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :   Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 12 Jan 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 12 Jan 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Jan 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting  | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council
<pitti> hey
<mdz> is everyone here?
<Riddell> good morning
<mjg59> Morning
<dholbach> hello
<Mithrandir> ehlo
* Mez waves
* pitti waves to mdz
<seb128> hi
<ajmitch> evening
<Kamion> morning
<mvo> hello
<doko> good morning
<ogra_ibook> *yawn*
<mdz> JaneW: ping?
<mdz> fabbione,Keybuk,infinity,BenC,daniels: ping
<Keybuk> yeah, I'm here ;)
<fabbione> mdz: pong
<JaneW> pong
<infinity> pong.
<JaneW> hi all
* fabbione needs 2 minutes to write up
<pitti> hey JaneW, how are you
<mdz> does anyone know if BenC is about?
<JaneW> pitti: good thanks and you?
<pitti> fine
<JaneW> mdz: he is not but I have an update from him
<Keybuk> mdz: he only just joined #u-d
<fabbione> mdz: he should. he knew the meeting was today
<JaneW> mdz: I have an update from daniels and sivang too
<mdz> Keybuk: his client rejoins every 20 minutes or so due to network problems
<mdz> JaneW: did he send you an update because he had a reason he couldn't be here?
<JaneW> mdz: there was no explanation or comment, just the update, - testing-server-hardware
<mdz> JaneW: I see, please paste what you have for BenC and daniels
<JaneW> BenC
<JaneW> preventing-hardware-support-regressions: Build system tested, will start
<JaneW> pushing builds this week. Afterwards will announce to the community for
<JaneW> testing.
<JaneW> ubuntu-server-kernel: Done (marked implemented in lp).
<JaneW> Daniels
<JaneW> x-roadmap: x11r7 final in, polishing xorg source package for imminent
<JaneW> post-fl3 upload
<JaneW> misc: broken laptop screen and dsl hilarity make for interesting
<JaneW> availability, generally smsable within reasonable hours 
<mdz> JaneW: what about testing-server-hardware?
<JaneW> like I said above... his report was -testing-server-hardware
<JaneW> I did e-mail and ask about it tho
<mdz> oh, I thought you were saying he gave an update for testing-server-hardware specifically
<Kamion> oh you mean "minus" rather than a bullet
<mdz> ok
<JaneW> yes sorry, the hyphens confussed the issue
<mdz> ok
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach> formal-test-plans: talked with BenC about hardware-regressions, added Instructions on how to report bugs from testing, referred to DebuggingProcedures; needs fleshing out, but i consider the pages 'ready to go' - media testing needs test files, jdub didn't want to have example-content used for this, we'll link to test files from Media/Testing
<dholbach> this week (done): package updates, bug triage, bug day, some merges
<dholbach> this week (todo): motu meeting, more merges, bug triage
<dholbach> next week: bug triage, more package updates, merges, starting apt-get.org reviews
<mdz> dholbach: what's the reason not to use example-content?
<dholbach> mdz: jdub considers it as something "for end users" not for "developers", although i said, that i didn't want to ship all sorts of broken stuff, he didnt like the idea
<mdz> dholbach: it's something we'll include in the default install, it's natural to use it for testing
<dholbach> he gave me the idea of investigating in the test files of the gstreamer development team
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> de rien
<mdz> doko: next?
<Kamion> that sounds like it would test the things that already work?
<doko> this week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: 2.0.1 packages built on breezy (for breezy-updates?), start merging with unstable, renaming the packages
<doko> - python-roadmap: python-central update, preparing snapshot version for testing
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: ia64 fixes, prepare for amd64 biarch update
<doko> - other: syncs/merges, updates to new upstream versions, eclipse update (needs mozilla-dev update), half yearly ISDN updates, happy about ronne's disk space
<Kamion> or do they have an a-priori good spread of test files?
<doko> next week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: sync week, i.e. dictionary and locale support (kurdish merge)
<doko> status:
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: amd64-biarch (blocked on fixing a glibc amd64-i386 self-bootstrap)
<doko> - toolchain-dapper+1: blocked by preparation of wanna-build and buildd infrastructure (no change)
<mdz> dholbach: ping me sometime tomorrow to chat about it if there is still a question, we need to keep going
<doko> - openoffice-gnome: not started, need an update from martink
<doko> - openoffice-help: implemented (no change)
<doko> - openoffice-spellchecking: not started (no change)
<doko> - native-java-gcj: infrastructure is ready, packaging of -gcj binary packages not started
<doko> - java-roadmap: mostly done, pending are eclipse updates (blocked by firefox-dev/mozilla-dev) and the native-java-gcj support
<doko> - python-roadmap: proposal implemented, testing outside the archive now.
<dholbach> mdz: ok
<mdz> doko: renaming = openoffice.org2 -> openoffice.org?
<doko> yes
<mdz> is there any real value in that?  it will complicate upgrades
<doko> we cannot support dictionaries for both versions (1 and 2), so we have to either derive for all dictionary package from debian, or make the name change as well
<mdz> doko: is the biarch bootstrap an infinity task?
<doko> I don't think the change will be that complicated for the end user
<mdz> doko: please talk with mvo about how it should be handled in the upgrade tool
<doko> mdz: currently Mithrandir is looking at it
<Kamion> we've already gone openoffice.org -> openoffice.org2 in previous releases, going back should be relatively straightforward I'd expect
<infinity> mdz: I took over the "fixing glibc" task from jbailey while he's off galavanting.
<doko> mdz: will take the upgrade with mvo
<infinity> mdz: Mithrandir had a poke last night, I'm back at it today to see where it went wrong. :)
<Kamion> doko: are we using the python-support work being done in Debian now?
<Kamion> (or working with them, I guess)
<mdz> Kamion: .org -> .org2 was sort of a mess; if they now conflict that will be easier but still
<doko> Kamion: not yet, I'm talking with Joss about merging the two
<mdz> doko: is the help system bounty completed?
<Kamion> ok, great, there was a lot of good analysis of the problem domain on #debian-release (which you saw, I know) so sharing that would be good
<doko> mdz: from my point of view, yes, it does build. hope, it will not break for 2.0.2 ;)
<mdz> doko: ok, please send me a reminder to deal with the payment
<doko> mdz: ok
<mdz> thanks, doko
<mdz> fabbione: next
<fabbione> * server-candy: system-integrity-check: fixed performance issues. Deploy is blocked on admins (rt: #723). Started other activities l
<fabbione> ike collecting 3rd party pkgs and so on.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: full upgrades of currently supported suites. Performed some tests and bug fixes (redhat-cluster-suite). Missing to test OCFS2.
<fabbione> * probe-for-root-filesystem: no progress. Probably needs reassigment to somebody else.
<fabbione> * boot-from-usb: implemented.
<fabbione> * merges: zlib - still pending libc6-i386-dev, one merge (partman-auto-lvm) is pending but nothing scary or urgent.
<fabbione> * last week: server-candy, ubuntu-cluster, boot-from-usb.
<fabbione> * next week: vac. Tomorrow i will be merging the last bits around and testing OCFS2 so there will be no need for updates at the next
<fabbione>  meeting.
<infinity> fabbione: Is the zlib merge just pending on that as a build-dep, but otherwise done?
<fabbione> infinity: no it needs to be done from scratch
<mdz> Mithrandir: do you have some free bandwidth to help finish off probe-for-root-filesystem?
<infinity> fabbione: If so, you can reassign the merge to me, give me your sources, and I'll make sure it's sorted within minutes of the biarch stuff being unbroken.
<Mithrandir> mdz: sure, I can probably reuse some casper stuff.
<fabbione> infinity:  i will reassign the bug, but i have no sources.
<infinity> fabbione: Oh, if it's Real Effort(tm), then you're welcome to keep it. :)
<Mithrandir> mdz: give me a minute to skim the spec before giving it to me
<mdz> Mithrandir: great; the remaining piece is just to have it mount by uuid I think.  fabbione can fill you in
<fabbione> infinity: it needs to go in before UVF and i won't be here next week
<infinity> fabbione: Oh, then reassign it, yes.
<mdz> fabbione: enjoy your vacation, have a good rest
<fabbione> mdz: assuming we are going, yes thanks :)
<fabbione> infinity: yup
<Mithrandir> mdz: looks simple enough.
<mdz> fabbione: you will take the time off even if you do not travel, right?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: i will talk to you about it after the meeting
<fabbione> mdz: yes, but i will be around if we don't travel.
<Mithrandir> mdz: I need to get my USB hard drive back, but that should be today or tomorrow or so.
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok
<mdz> fabbione: thanks
<mdz> infinity: next
<fabbione> welcome :)
<infinity> Last week:
<infinity> * reducing duplication: Got MySQL 5.0 in, did some rapid bugfixing to get the packaging sane. (have joined the Debian MySQL team to make sure it gets enough polish)
<infinity> * usplash-initramfs: Implement dirty hack for this that seems to work fine.  Eventually needs more work to do it "right" in usplash itself.
<infinity> * misc: security, initramfs bugfixing, new LRM, new PHP, livefs changes for Mithrandir, random installability/buildability fixes in line with ongoing buildd maintenance.
<infinity> Next week:
<infinity> * reducing duplication: Begin rebuilding all of main to use libmysqlclient15, and kick MySQL 4.x to universe
<infinity> * splash-down: Should have time to get this one in this week.
<infinity> * misc: - glibc amd64-i386 biarch needs bootstrapping (but first, an irritating bug that Tollef and I spent several hours on last night needs to be hunted and killed) - need to merge subversion_1.3 for the masses (doko's request, but I agree we want it for release) - need to hunt down a kernel frequency_scaling bug that's preventing my laptop from working at full speed. :)
<mdz> the last update has a note for us to discuss mysql 5.0; I think we're in agreement there per email conversations
<infinity> <nod>  I'd say so.
<doko> infinity: any note about db4.4, or do we go with 4.3?
<infinity> I think we'll stick with 4.3
* pitti agrees
<pitti> well, most packages should play well with any version, so if we need to upgrade, there are no blockers
<infinity> Sleepycat's upstream support is good (for EVER), so there's no concern there, and 4.4 is completely untested in Debian/Ubuntu, so I don't want to risk it.
<mdz> infinity: sounds like we can call usplash-initramfs implemented
<infinity> But 4.3 and 4.4 both have versioned symbols, so if we need to bring it in, it probably won't hurt anyone to have a mix.
<mdz> infinity: livefs changes includes squashfs images?
<infinity> (I'd prefer not to have a mix)
<infinity> mdz: Yes, we have squash.
<mdz> cool
<infinity> mdz: On amd64 right now, will turn it on on the other arches as soon as we've had a successful amd64 build that we've tested and know works. :)
<mdz> Kamion: should be trivial to switch the daily builds to use squashfs, yes?
<infinity> mdz: Already done.
<Kamion> mdz: already done
<mdz> is there a build available with the change?
<Kamion> (and yes, was trivial except for me getting it wrong the first time)
<Mithrandir> mdz: it's also a trivial per-arch switch, so we can switch ppc back to cloop if we deem unionfs too unstable
<Kamion> mdz: on amd64, yes, but it doesn't boot yet for other reasons
<infinity> mdz: Yes, but it's broken due to initramfs messing up.  I'll build again after the meeting.
<mdz> ok, looking forward to testing that
<mdz> thanks infinity
<mdz> iwj: next
<iwj> AutomatedTesting:  Making reasonable progress on implementation.  Tester core is about half-done now.  From last week: Apparently the IBM LTC are interested in this too and there's going to be a call (organised by Malcom Yates I think) - but this has all gone quiet.
<iwj> Firefox maintenance:  The package isn't quite so hopeless since my upload at the end of last week.  Not working on it this week (so as to get AutomatedTesting done).
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: no change since last report.  I will pick this up properly when AutomatedTesting is done.
<iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Not started, not blocked.
<iwj> Email and bugs backlog: moderate.
<mdz> iwj: what remains on DefaultApplicationsFirefox again?
<iwj> It's basically still buggy.
<mdz> hmm
<iwj> For example, it's hard to select a non-default application.
<mdz> did you have a chance to do that examination of epiphany?
<iwj> And I'm told it has a security problem with .desktop files.
<mdz> a security problem?
<doko> iwj: does Firefox maintenance include mozilla maintainance as well (at least until mozilla-dev is installable again)
* pitti doesn't know anything
<iwj> Apparently you can download them and then clicky clicky gnome will run them.
<iwj> doko: It does in the sense that I'm not doing it this week.
<iwj> Yes, we ought to talk about mozilla.
<seb128> right, GNOME will display the Name= of the .desktop as title and use the Icon= and run whatever command is used
<pitti> ouch
<iwj> I haen't looked at epiphany yet.  That definitely counts as ff maintenance :-).
<mdz> do we need mozilla in main?
<ogra_ibook> pitti, ouch ? 
<seb128> pitti: we had this discussion on ubuntu-devel some months ago I think
<ogra_ibook> pitti, you can only run existing apps
<infinity> mdz: No, it's on its way out.  Once I split enigmail, nothing's holding it in.
<seb128> ogra_ibook: like rm -rf ...
<Kamion> ogra_ibook: with arbitrary arguments, and gksudo is an existing app
<mdz> ok
<ogra_ibook> oh, yes
<iwj> I made nspr and nss come out of ff to try to get mozilla out of main.
<mdz> doko: so mozilla-dev shouldn't be blocking anything, no?
<ogra_ibook> silly me
<pitti> seb128: hm, I don't remember that
<doko> mdz: currently eclipse doesn't work with firefox 1.5, ok that's universe, but currently mozilla-dev isn't even installable, and firefox-dev doesn't built on amd64 and ia64
<iwj> The 64-bit problem I will fix but not until next week.
<mdz> ok
<seb128> pitti: what epy issue?
<iwj> This only affects things that embed ff.
<ogra_ibook> pitti, in the beginning of breezy there was a discussion about autostart on CDs, i think it inherited from this one
<mdz> iwj: do you have an ETA for something basically functional for automated testing?
<pitti> ogra_ibook, seb128: let's discuss that in #u-devel
<iwj> That depends on how badly ff eats me next week, I think.
<seb128> pitti: Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:55:21 -0500, Subject: Scary .desktop behaviour
<seb128> pitti: for the security issue
<iwj> It's possible I'll finish it and produce something playable-with the end of this week but I'm not promising that.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks iwj
<mdz> Kamion: next
<iwj> Of course there's hardly any tests.  Just one example for now that I'm playing with, sitting on my hard disk.
<Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Got partman running under espresso, which makes the autopartitioning screen work. Basic progress bar handling and chaining to gparted implemented. Some bug fixes still required to make it all flow smoothly enough to use, but we're getting close. Various UI changes in partman will be needed further down the line.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-copy-filesystem: Tollef has made /rofs available to me with the unmodified file system; I've changed the espresso code to use it. Agreed hook scheme for casper to propagate configuration.
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: Killed scary timeout clock, fixed some video mode menu bugs, and fixed syslinux to clear the screen properly when switching back to text mode. Still to do: help text and keymap support.
<Kamion> misc: Helped switch live CDs to squashfs (with Adam/Tollef). I'm preparing Flight CD 3 now; exact ETA unknown but obviously ASAP; help with testing appreciated, especially for Kubuntu/Edubuntu; broken live CD boot process being fixed (we hope) at the moment.
<Kamion> blocked: nothing much
<Kamion> next-week: merge catch-up; get espresso up to the point where I can do a test install as long as I avoid the UI bugs (should be feasible, I think)
<mdz> Kamion: what's the plan for the keymaps in cd-bootloader?
<Riddell> Kamion: I should test today's dailys for kubuntu on all arches then?
<ogra_ibook> Riddell, you should do that every day :P
<Kamion> mdz: waiting for keymapper to switch to X keymaps (Tollef's looking at this), then scrape out the list of keymaps in much the same way as we do for locales and stick them in a menu
<infinity> Riddell: Test the installation CDs, don't bother with Live until someone gives a go-ahead in #ubuntu-devel.
<Kamion> Riddell: what infinity said
<mdz> Kamion: for flight 3, please poll everyone for items which should be included in the release announcement, especially new features which are ready to test, and infrastructure which needs to be regression-tested
<Kamion> mdz: if feasible and I have time, limit the keymap menu to those optimal for the current locale
<Kamion> mdz: ok, I'll see if I can track down the guy who did that excellent wiki page for Flight 2
<Kamion> DapperFlight2
<mdz> Kamion: did the flight 2 announcement go to -users and -devel as in the past?
<mdz> Kamion: I'm thinking we should start announcing them on -announce
<Burgundavia> Kamion, DapperFlight3 already exists and has content going in
<Kamion> rah, DapperFlight3 already exists
<Kamion> Burgundavia: yeah, just noticed :)
<dholbach_> sorry, flew out
<Kamion> mdz: -users and -devel-announce, and I've been warning that it might be just -devel-announce in the future
<Mithrandir> Riddell / ogra_ibook / everybody who cares about live cds: it's very, very important to keep -desktop installable, else, you won't get new live images and stuff breaks.  Also, make sure to merge seeds, since we've seen that cause live failures with user-setup.
<Kamion> I'm vacillating on that; a lot of people on -users aren't on -devel-announce
<Kamion> Mithrandir> merge seeds *and* upload -meta to cope
<ogra_ibook> Mithrandir, yup, known here ...
<Kamion> (since the live CD build process relies on -meta)
<mdz> Kamion: a lot of the people who we want to regression-test the Flight CDs are not on -devel-announce
<mdz> and people want to hear more on -announce
<dholbach> fridge-devel too :)
<Kamion> mdz: oh right, you actually mean -announce
<infinity> Kamion: That could be changes, but since livefs builds are about the only real-world automated test we have right now to prove that the metapackages work...
<Kamion> ok, can do; ubuntu-announce and fridge-devel then?
<mdz> Riddell, ogra_ibook: you should be merging your seeds regularly, e.g. if you see an ubuntu-meta upload there are probably changes you need to merge
<Kamion> infinity: yeah
<mdz> Kamion: sounds good
<mdz> Kamion: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: next
<ogra_ibook> mdz, yup, i normally do ...
<Keybuk> urgent-reboot-notification: Stole this spec off the nobody it was assigned to (it was linked from the udev-roadmap) and implemented it.
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: in progress;  have designed new readahead stuff
<Keybuk> network-magic: ifupdown mods finished, need to test and upload.  network-manager still blocked on infinity (madwifi-ng) and jbailey (libc resolved patch)
<Keybuk> next week: the same, but more so; merges
<mdz> Keybuk: is there anything further in streamlined-boot which has much regression potential?
<mdz> readahead should be pretty tame in that respect
<Keybuk> mdz: no, it's mostly just careful adjusting and tweaking
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: uh, you're doing evil stuff to readahead?  What's that?
<Keybuk> *checks his board*
<Keybuk> nope, definitely all the scary stuff is done
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: will discuss out-of-band if you like
<mdz> Keybuk: now that jbailey is finished with the biarch work, he shouldn't be holding a lock on glibc anymore, no?
<mdz> should be ok to upload that patch
<Keybuk> mdz: aye, he said he'd do it a few weeks ago, then two weeks ago, then one week ago
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: please, since I have evil plans for readahead magic for the live cds.
<Keybuk> :p
<infinity> I have the current lock, actually.
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: ok, then we should definitely talk; straight after this meeting?
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: sure
<infinity> Keybuk: If the patch is sane, toss it to me, and I'll put it in the "fix the bloody biarch bootstrap" upload.
<mdz> infinity: ok, perhaps you can merge that ptach along teh way then
<mdz> it's been discussed and agreed upon already
<infinity> Rock.
<infinity> Keybuk: Patch and/or bug# SVP.  My INBOX wants love.
<Keybuk> infinity: 
<Keybuk> http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-alpha/2004-09/msg00130.html
<mdz> Keybuk: thanks
<pitti> Keybuk: does NM have a realistic change to make it before feature freeze?
<mdz> Lathiat: do you have anything to report on zeroconf?
<Keybuk> pitti: depends on infinity
<Keybuk> pitti: but I don't see why not
<mjg59> NM is mostly a problem due to the kernel support at the moment
<mdz> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> openoffice-amd64: no progress
<Mithrandir> live-cd-performance: squashfs images are now produced, should speed up the cd a fair bit.  Readahead/inotify hacks are being worked on, but not there yet.
<Mithrandir> one-true-path: no progress
<Mithrandir> simplified-livecd: almost there.  keyboard selection is missing, espresso integration is missing
<Mithrandir> network-authentication: no progress, doubtful it'll make feature freeze
<Mithrandir> livecd-squashfs: implemented
<Mithrandir> livecd-unionfs. implemented, but has problems on powerpc.  I'm working on it with BenC.
<Mithrandir> misc: done a bit of d-i keyboard hackery so we can hopefully switch to using X keymaps in both console and X.
<Mithrandir> Blocked on: nothing, I have plenty to do and work is progressing
<Mithrandir> This week: Get simplified-livecd done, help Colin with Flight3, hopefully some live-cd-performance hacking
<mdz> Mithrandir: let's drop network-authentication officially
<Mithrandir> mdz: defer for dapper+1, I guess, not drop?
<mdz> Mithrandir: drop from dapper, yes
<Mithrandir> sure
<mdz> Mithrandir: looking good, thanks
<JaneW> mdz: I just mailed you an update from krstic...
<mdz> mjg59: power-management-configuration?
<mjg59> mdz: gnome-power-manager is ready, dbus is dealt with
<mdz> mjg59: you wanted some help from pitti?
<mjg59> The two things that are needed are (a) libpam-foreground integration (discussion on -devel didn't get very far, I'd like some more feedback) and (b) support for hal to execute privileged code
<mdz> ok, let's talk about that after I've slept
<mdz> mvo: next
<ogra_ibook> mjg59, look at my dmidecode patch from dapper 
<mjg59> (b) is basically cutting and pasting some code from hald into a daemon that runs as root and has some generic dbus glue, but I don't have time right now
<ogra_ibook> mjg59, err, hoary, sorry
<Kamion> Mithrandir: I think you can count casper/espresso integration as part of ubuntu-express-copy-filesystem, not simplified-livecd, for purposes of marking the latter implemented
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> * apt support for multiple signatures on the release file
<mvo> * gnome-app-install fixes, supports license display/accept screen for proprietary apps and per channel apt-keys now [ThirdPartyPackages] 
<mvo> * Dist-Upgrade tool:
<mvo>   - more reliable meta-pkg detection/fixing missing one, should work on broken caches as well
<mdz> Kamion: agreed
<Mithrandir> Kamion: ok
<mvo>   - more sanity checking after it calculated the upgrade (are the meta-pkgs still installed etc)
<mvo>   - better error detection/handling on e.g. network problems  
<mvo>   - logs it's activities
<mvo>   - various hoary->breezy test-upgrades
<mvo> [AutomaticUpgrades] 
<mvo> * updated the apt-get.org fetching/test-building script (with dholbach) and ran a first test-run through all the stuff available on apt-get.org (291 repos scanned, 393 successful builds, 825 failed) 
<mvo> Next week:
<mvo> - work on the ThirdPartyPackages spec (add key support to the channels)
<mvo> - work on the AutomaticUpgrades
<mdz> mvo: is the dist-upgrade tool in reasonable enough shape for community testing?
<mvo> mdz: very close. what would we test it on? hoary->breezy?
<mdz> mvo: sure, or breezy->dapper
<mdz> mvo: just get some exercise for the infrastructure.  write a simple howto and post to -devel-announce with a call for testers
<mvo> yes, that sounds good, I'll do that
<mdz> need to hurry to finish in time
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<mdz> ogra_ibook: next
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-sound: implemented (thank you pitti, for the gstreamer magic!)
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-local-devices: dropped
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-memory-usage: worked on forced 16bit xorg mode (not preseedable, as most of the xorg settings). looked at nbd and the implementation for network swapping.
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-faster-startup: worked on the initscript handling, did more initramfs testing.
<ogra_ibook> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: no progress, still need pictures ....
<ogra_ibook> * general: done some further work on ltsp-build-client and ltsp-update-kernels (yaboot and kernel stuff) for ppc, getting edubuntu-artwork in shape, preparing for flight3, did some more dhcpd tests for the --next-server stuff
<ogra_ibook> * next week: flight3 testing, missed the nfs timeout bugsqashing i had planned for last week, will do it this week, last xscreensaver merge work before UVF, getting all the local bits and pieces of ltsp into shape.
<mdz> ogra_ibook: any leads on the nfs timeout issue?
<ogra_ibook> not yet
<ogra_ibook> as i said, i missed the time for debugging 
<mdz> ogra_ibook: if you haven't already, arrange to talk with BenC about it
<ogra_ibook> since its a bug its not critical for feature freez
<mdz> it seems awfully like a kernel issue
<Riddell> ogra_ibook: what happened with thin-client-local-devices?
<ogra_ibook> Riddell, postponed
<mdz> Riddell: the spec was never complete, it needs much more discussion and design woru
<mdz> work
<ogra_ibook> mdz, yes, i suspect the same
<mdz> ogra_ibook: thanks
<mdz> pitti: next
<pitti> last week: caught up with a lot of security updats, caught up with bug triage, lots of urgent bug fixes, main inclusion reviews
<pitti> no progress on specs (ENOTIME), but for JaneW's overview I'll give the current status of the non-implemented specs:
<pitti> firewall: long-outstanding bounty proposal, I do not know about mdz's approval status; no news from carstenh for quite a while now
<pitti> automatic-printer-conf: DONE: dynamic USB printer recognition implemented due to cupsys 1.2beta; TODO: gnome UI integration requires to evaluate hal-cups-utils from Fedora, port it to Ubuntu, do integration and tests; no blocks, no progress
<pitti> langpacks-desktopfiles: DONE: implemented for .desktop files; PLAN: outstanding for .server files (will try to look into this next week)
<pitti> plan next week: get an agreement about sudo help approach in TB, last steps to throw mozilla out of main
<mdz> pitti: is there an actual proposal for firewall?
<mdz> scope of work and price?
<pitti> mdz: hm, carsten sent one ages ago, I have to look again (don't remember any more)
<mdz> pitti: ok, if it's something I lost track of over the holidays, please resend
<pitti> mdz: no price, but scope etc. is there
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<mdz> seb128: next
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: default panel configuration changed, "add to panel" changes will be uploaded today
<seb128> other: load of bug triage, pushed some GNOME changes/patches upstream before the feature freeze, GNOME changes (pygtk splitted to pyobject/pygtk, etc)
<seb128> next-week: dapper-desktop-plan, continue bug triage
<mdz> seb128: which other parts of dapper-desktop-plan are still pending?  can you estimate the completion of the spec?
<mdz> seb128: I saw that mjg59 posted some concerns which I think were aimed at dapper-desktop-plan, please make sure that sabdfl sees and responds
<seb128> 40% complete when the add to panel changes land today
<seb128> that's menus-revisited
<seb128> (mjg59 mail)
<mdz> oh, even so
<seb128> yeah, will do that
<mdz> thanks seb128
<mdz> sivang: ayt?
<seb128> for dapper-desktop-plan there is some applet hacking that should be easy, and then the gdm changes
<mdz> Riddell: next
<Riddell> done: KDE security fixes, shipping breezy CDs, bug day recruitment and support, CD testing, final few libstdc++ transition packages
<Riddell> zeroconf: avahi support added
<Riddell> kubuntu-express: browsing the current sources, touching up my pykde skills
<Riddell> kubuntu-roadmap-dapper: CKJ support now complete (question, should scim etc go into main?)
<Riddell> next week: flight 3, qtparted changes for kubuntu-express, sudo wrapper
<mdz> Riddell: I'm happy for scim to enter main given inclusion reports
<mdz> Riddell: I'm less clear on what we need to do with it once it's there, beyond installing it by default
<Riddell> mdz: we have them so I'll link them from the to be reviewed list
<doko> we be interesting to know how to test/use it ...
<pitti> Riddell: I have a pending main inclusion report for scim
<Riddell> I don't know if it should be installed by default since most users don't use it, maybe ship only
<mdz> I've seen some email from a fellow who is interested in helping us with input methods
<mdz> I'll see if he can provide some instruction about testing/using it
<ogra_ibook> oh, main inclusion, any chance i see gobby reviewed pitti ? its a listed goal for edubuntu 
<Kamion> Riddell: the gparted --installer changes are (back) in now; emulating that general approach for kubuntu-express would probably be good
<Riddell> Kamion: that's the plan
<pitti> ogra_ibook: no problem security wise, I'm just scared of bug reports that complain about broken documents :)
<Kamion> Riddell: does Qt support anything like GtkPlug/GtkSocket for inter-process widget embedding?
<ogra_ibook> pitti, forward them to me :) 
<Riddell> Kamion: I'm not sure exactly what that is, KDE has kparts
<mvo> Riddell: the dist-upgrade tool is designed to make it easy to plug a new interface to it, we should talk about this after the meeting
<Kamion> Riddell: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/gtk/PlugSocket.html
<dholbach> Riddell: wasn't there a blog entry recently about embedding qt in gtk and vice versa?
<mdz> Riddell: thanks for the update
<mdz> JaneW: any questions or concerns for the last 5 minutes?
<mdz> or anyone else?
<JaneW> I was going to raise the TC local devices issue, but after mails earlier I think it's not necessary
<JaneW> I'll give sivang's update...
<mdz> JaneW: I am going to throttle flint the next time I see him
<JaneW> mdz: thank-you ;)
<JaneW> Sivan
<JaneW> Updates:
<JaneW> 1)Already working on the main backup application GUI together with finishing utility components. 
<JaneW> 2)Finished the media device detection code. (to offer a user to choose among available media targets to backup to).
<JaneW> 3)I expect to be able to finish the project before FF which is 23rd February. That should give me a month to QA and test the work. (As well as by other community members)
<JaneW> Todo:
<JaneW> 1) Finish main application GUI and startup stuff.
<JaneW> 2) Write code to allow notification through notify-daemon about backup intervals. I had set up wrapping up libnotify for python usage for this, but this may be dropped if time does not allow it and I will use the gross hack of having pre-made C binaries per the 2 notificatios I need there instead.
<JaneW> 3) Code the dar integration bits.
<JaneW> 4) Code the mkisofs / cd burning bits.
<mdz> ok
<JaneW> sorry the above is for: home-user-backup
<mdz> right
<mdz> ogra_ibook: how does edubuntu look for flight 3?
<JaneW> please could everyone make sure their specs are up to date in LP
<mdz> Riddell: and kubuntu?
<JaneW> I know most ppl have been good at updating statuses etc
<JaneW> also not everyone finished the est dev days and expectation of delivery, we should still try to complete that
<Mithrandir> I wish launchpad had a way to say "this is 50% completed"
<mdz> JaneW: have you made progress with someone on the LP team as far as getting a spec report export implemented in launchpad?
<ogra_ibook> mdz, should be fine ... -desktop was broken for a while, i'm just pulling the first isos
<Mithrandir> some sort of rudimentary progress tracking.
<Riddell> mdz: should be fine, I just need to test the CDs
<JaneW> last thing, the meeting for the week of the sprint, can we make it a sane local time instead of 2am?
<Mithrandir> now, stuff jumps from "approved" to "done".
<Kamion> JaneW: should the estimated dev days be remaining or from-start-of-project?
<mdz> Riddell: have you tested some recent dailies?
<pitti> Mithrandir: you can use the whiteboard
<JaneW> mdz: no I haven;t taken that further, is everyone happy with the report format and content?
<JaneW> Mithrandir: I did ask for a WIP at least
<mdz> JaneW: I'd prefer that the old and new statuses were in separate cells
<Kamion> JaneW: start of the working day would be good
<mdz> it's hard to read as is
<Kamion> (for sprint meeting)
<JaneW> Kamion: I think from start to finish for consistency
<Kamion> JaneW: ok, so what should we be updating?
<Riddell> mdz: been testing lives, which have had the authentication issue, should be working ok now after seed merge but yet to test today
<Kamion> likelihood of completion?
<Kamion> (and I agree, it gets a bit mad otherwise)
<pitti> JaneW: hm, I adapted mine to be the 'days left', not the 'total days'
<mdz> JaneW: we also need that access control fix for targeting specs to a release, so that launchpad can be authoritative for that
<mdz> JaneW: please follow up with kiko, find out who we should talk to about spec tracker stuff since mark will be too busy
<mdz> and that's a wrap
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<JaneW> Kamion: expectation of delivery (i.e. will the thing get done?) and estimated dev days (how long it;s expected to take)
<mdz> and good night
<fabbione> night mdz
<mvo> good night mdz 
<fabbione> cya later
<JaneW> mdz: ok I'll pick it up again...
<ogra_ibook> night mdz
<dholbach> good night mdz
<JaneW> last thing, the meeting for the week of the sprint, can we make it a sane local time instead of 2am?
<pitti> thanks folks, bye
<Kamion> 09:00 < Kamion> JaneW: start of the working day would be good
<pitti> JaneW: yes, pleeeeease :)
<JaneW> Kamion: ah right good, I opted for 10am, shall we make it 9am?
<Kamion> I imagine we'll be doing start-of-day things anyway?
<Kamion> 9am+coffee = 10am, so I don't mind
<JaneW> we'll need to decide if it's verbal, with report, or IRC as usual
<fabbione> i suggest verbal
<infinity> verbal = violence.
<sivang> mdz: here now
<JaneW> depends how many on-line ppl want to listen in
<fabbione> so we can kill each other
<fabbione> :)
<infinity> Which is fine, so long as I make sure I'm not blocking anyone by then.
<fabbione> infinity: ++
<Burgundavia> JaneW, please keep it online
<sivang> ah bad, too late ..:-/
<mvo> verbal has the disadvantage that external people can't follow it 
<infinity> Point.
<dholbach> i think we'll have quite a lot of verbal interaction anyway :)
* pitti imagines 15 people sitting next to each other and talking over IRC - funny
<JaneW> Burgundavia: I am happy to means I can  cut 'n paste - less typing for me!
<ogra_ibook> why keeping it online, the reports are public
<infinity> Online also makes it easier to hack in the background when you're not the focus of attention. :)
<Kamion> verbal+minutes is fine too, but I think the minuter would be somewhat overloaded with the volume of information in a distro team meeting
<infinity> It's like two hours for the price of one!
<Mithrandir> verbal with paintball guns sounds good.  So you shoot people if they block you and stuff.
<Kamion> ogra_ibook: the conversation's useful too ...
<Seveas> pitti, we sort of had that on the Ubuntu NL spurt, but with 7 people ;)
<JaneW> pitti: we do that normally anyway!
<Kamion> Mithrandir++
* fabbione will take his cluebat in London
<pitti> JaneW: I don't :)
<ogra_ibook> Kamion, true ...
* JaneW will take rubber rocket with elastic launcher...
<dholbach> guys, you are agressive - didn't you have time to relax?
<mvo> HUG DAY!
<pitti> Mithrandir: you should keep them alive enough for them to be able to finish the stuff you wait for
<dholbach> tsssss
<Mithrandir> pitti: paintballs don't kill.  They just hurt.
<pitti> JaneW: 'rubber rocket', I see. The Orion shop calls them a bit differently :)
<JaneW> LOL
<sivang> JaneW: Thank you for reporting for me, in my absence :)
<pitti> JaneW: anyway, 10am is probably sane, after the initial talks and tea
<dholbach> JaneW: i was reminded on sabdfl's latex lotion the moment you talked about it ;)
* sivang thought everybody forgot about that already :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: hehe :)
<sivang> ah ah
<pitti> ok, back to work. thanks to everybody
<JaneW> bye
* sivang goes to read scrollback
<JaneW> pitti: what's ENOTIME?
<Mithrandir> JaneW: no time available
<mvo> JaneW: it just means Error No Time
<JaneW> oic, I was thininking 'not enough time' or suchlike
<Kamion> pretty much the same
<dholbach> JaneW: E<BOLDLETTERS> are usually made up "error messages" :)
<JaneW> ta
<Kamion> (or real libc error codes, sometimes ...)
<Kamion> (e.g. my house is ENOSPC)
<JaneW> EFNF
<\sh> evening gentlemen
<LaserJock> hi \sh
<sistpoty> hiho
<lucasd> hello :)
<lucas> hello
<lucas> Should I announce the meeting on #ubuntu-motu and #ubuntu-devel ?
<raphink> hop
<raphink> hi guys :)
<dholbach> hello
<sistpoty> hey dholbach
<raphink> :)
<chninkel> hi
<dholbach> lucas: yeah, although #ubuntu-motu should be aware of it :)
<raphink> hopefully
<sistpoty> do we want to start?
<\sh> it's 20:00 UTC...welcome ladies and gentlemen
<zul> heylo
<ogra_ibook> :)
<sistpoty> hey ogra_ibook
<raphink> hi ogra_ibook 
<raphink> hi zul 
<sistpoty> ok, anyone volunteering to do the minutes?
<lucas> * silence *
<raphink> * more silence *
<Riddell> like a Quaker meeting this
<raphink> hi Riddell 
<\sh> sistpoty: i'll do it when it's ok if I send later this week :)
<sistpoty> cool, thx \sh
<sistpoty> let's start with discussion... who made the first point /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL vs /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-2?
<siretart> hu folks
<sistpoty> hi siretart
<raphink> I did sistpoty 
<Riddell> start with names no?
<sistpoty> then go ahead, raphink ;)
<\sh> yes
<\sh> please state your names
* sistpoty is StefanPotyra
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
* \sh is Stephan Hermann
* crimsun is Daniel Chen
* chninkel is Yann Rouillard
* raphink is Raphael Pinson
* LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
* janimo is Jani Monoses
* lucasd is Lucas Duailibe
* Riddell is Jonathan Riddell
* lucas is Lucas Nussbaum (LP: nussbaum)
* zul is Charles Short
* ogra_ibook is ogra on th eibook :)
<dholbach> wow, full house
<sistpoty> :)
* siretart is Reinhard Tartler
* Mithrandir is Tollef Fog Heen, but not really present
<lucas> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     5 2005-10-02 23:23 GPL -> GPL-2
<lucas> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 17989 2005-06-16 16:32 GPL-2
<lucas> what do you suggest, raphink ?
<raphink> the first poing comes from some talks on #ubuntu-motu about the license link in debian/copyright. This seems like a small issue but not everbody seem to have tyhe same opinion of it. I looked in Policy for this and found only notices about the GPL file, not GPL-2
<raphink> so it seems like GPL is a link to the latest version of GPL, currently GPL-2
<raphink> I wanted to point that out since many seem to belive that packages licensed under "GPL v2 or later" should point to GPL-2
<raphink> this doesn't matter so much now
<raphink> but GPL-3 is to be out in a matter of months, if not weeks now
* lucas thinks we should leave Debian decide about this, since changing this requires changing a lot of packages
<raphink> so we'd better have clear policy on this link in copyright imo
<lucas> GPL v3 won't be released before a year or so
<lucas> it's only the reviewing process that starts next monday
<raphink> lucas : my point was mainly about REVU so far since we also release new packages ;)
* siretart also agrees with lucas that this discussion should be rather rised on debian-devel
<raphink> ok
<raphink> :)
<ogra_ibook> i think it should be rised at the TB
<sistpoty> ogra_ibook++
<raphink> ok
<raphink> next week then ;)
<dholbach> yeah, i agree with ogra
<ogra_ibook> put it on the agenda there :)
<siretart> even better :)
<Riddell> are we under disagreement?
<\sh> well...
<crimsun> if in doubt we should be consulting /usr/share/doc/$foo/copyright anyhow, but yes, the issue's one for the TB (though we should try and minimize deviation from Debian)
<\sh> I'm not convinced about this paragraph:
<\sh> Each version of the License is given a distinguishing version
<\sh> number. If the Document specifies that a particular numbered version
<\sh> of this License "or any later version" applies to it, you have the
<\sh> option of following the terms and conditions either of that specified
<\sh> version or of any later version that has been published (not as a
<\sh> draft) by the Free Software Foundation.
<crimsun> err, not /usr/share/doc/$foo/copyright but COPYING in the source
<raphink> hmm
<lucas> \sh: what do you mean by "not convinced" ?
<raphink> do I had it to the TB agenda ?
<raphink> s/had/add/
<\sh> lucas: it gives upstream a choice 
<lucas> basically, a package stating GPLv2 or later should point to GPL, while a package stating GPLv2 should point to GPL-2
<ogra_ibook> raphink, thats the way to get it to the TB
<sistpoty> \sh: imo it also gives distributors a choice, but IANAL
<lucas> \sh: it gives the user or the distributor a choice
<\sh> lucas: to say: only GPLv2 or "later == GPLv3"
<Riddell> does anyone disagree with use GPL-2 for programs that are strictly GPL 2 and use GPL symlink for programs that are GPL 2 or later?
<ogra_ibook> raphink, i dont think its a MOTU specific issue ...
<\sh> sistpoty: well...the debian/dir is licensed by the maintainer in my POV
<raphink> indeed ogra_ibook 
<sistpoty> good point \sh
<sistpoty> but let's defer that to TB and move on... agreed?
<crimsun> Riddell: I don't disagree, but it's a matter for the TB
<\sh> so we have to deal with two license issues here
<siretart> next!
<\sh> sistpoty: agreed :)
<ogra_ibook> \sh, nope, we dont
<sistpoty> ok, next point are the todo's doko_ has for us...
<\sh> ogra_ibook: to go on :()
<ogra_ibook> \sh, the whole distro has ;)
<sistpoty> hehe
<raphink> huhu
<sistpoty> they are basically 1) packages still depending on libstdc++5 (gcc-3.3)
<sistpoty> which ftbfs
<sistpoty> I once started a wiki page MOTUStdc++-transition...
<dholbach> how is the status there? how much is left?
<sistpoty> but I don't know about the current state of these
<\sh> sistpoty: vn4 / im-sdk are not gcc4 compatible somehow
<sistpoty> \sh: we need at least g++-3.4
<siretart> sistpoty: please allow me a foolish question: why do packages build depending on gcc-3.3 ftbfs?
<siretart> I mean why still have gcc-3.3 around!
<\sh> sistpoty: i think the page is broken..when I looked only 1 or 2 packages were left...and then we recevied again a mail from doko..so I have a look
<sistpoty> siretart: obviously they don't b-d on gcc-3.3, but didn't get ever rebult
<siretart> ah. I see
<sistpoty> doko_: reading this?
<\sh> siretart: because it was the time in breezy, when not all packages were tested to be build with gcc-3.4/4.0
<raphink> sistpoty: so then? how is it a work for MOTU to rebuild them ? 
<lucas> so it's just about uploading a -1build1 version so they gets rebuilt ?
<siretart> sistpoty: so can we assume that all those FTBFS do also apply in debian?
<sistpoty> \sh: I'm not quite clear (in his mail, doko_ wrote, that the lists are rebuilt daily, but I don't think they are)
<sistpoty> lucas: no
<raphink> what has to be done with these packages then?
<sistpoty> raphink, lucas: they ftbfs... we need to make them build again
<siretart> lucas: they most probably where tried to be rebuild but failed
<lucas> ok
<\sh> lucas: definetly not :)
<raphink> k
<sistpoty> iirc they where all uloaded with -nbuildx
<\sh> and one of the biggest problem with this is, some packages are not well maintained anymore
<lucas> so this item can be merged with the FTBFS check later ;)
<sistpoty> lucas: it could, but should at least get some attention now
<sistpoty> I tried some packages, but they are horribly broken, so we might want to check for a new upstream version
<dholbach> yeah, upstream versions asap :)
<raphink> ok
<raphink> for each of them?
<dholbach> only if it helps and it is feasible
<raphink> ok
<sistpoty> raphink: if it makes them compile ;)
<dholbach> some upstreams have stopped working too, i fear
<\sh> raphink: try to build them first with actuall toolchain, if this is not working out, try gcc-3.4 and if this is not working new upstream check and try to build it :)
<dholbach> uvf is in one week
<\sh> s/actuall/actual/
<dholbach> we will have exceptions, but not too many
<raphink> yep \sh understood :)
<sistpoty> how do we want to handle these packages? try again with the wiki-page?
<crimsun> if you come across mythtv, discard it. I'm pulling from -fixes svn branch to make it build with g++-4.0.
<sistpoty> s/handle/organize handlinge/
<siretart> sistpoty: they aren't that many, I think a wiki page might be feasible in this case (and you know how much I hate wikis for that!)
<sistpoty> crimsun: bah... I'm just about to fix mythplugins... 
<\sh> well, I can take the new allocator transition list 
<sistpoty> \sh: they seem to be ftbfs-candidates as well
<siretart> sistpoty: and mythtv needs a lot of love, it is currently orphaned :(
<\sh> sistpoty: doesn't matter...but most of hte packages don't need a rename because they're apps :)
<dholbach> i think for the following week we should concentrate on updating/merging where we need it - what do you guys think?
<sistpoty> dholbach++
<raphink> +1 dholbach 
<raphink> some guys will shout on REVU that their packages are not being reviewed ;)
<dholbach> if there are fixes we can get from cvs, we should get them in too
<\sh> well..merging/updating/new apps are prio 1 i think until the 19th
<dholbach> raphink: NEW packages have time until feature freeze (= Feb 23)
<raphink> dholbach: what exactly is frozen on 19th then?
<lucas> can't we postpone UVF for universe ?
<dholbach> new upstream versions
<\sh> lucas: no
<dholbach> the spec explicitly say no
<crimsun> lucas: no, that was a huge issue last release
<siretart> lucas: we have UVF for a reason
<sistpoty> ok, seems like we are already moving to the next point on the agenda... uvf for universe
<\sh> lucas: we decided at ubz to go with the release schedule this time more strictly
<lucas> raphink: MoM stops working, so new packages in Debian don't get imported into Ubuntu
<sistpoty> dholbach: do you know if mom will be running until the last day of UVF?
<dholbach> sistpoty: we should Keybuk about that
<dholbach> i think it'll have to be fixed for Malone
<dholbach> although... that doesn't matter for universe
<dholbach> forget what i said
<\sh> dholbach: well...for universe it never filed any bugs in bugzilla :) so we don't need a fix :) right now
<dholbach> we should kindly ask him
<sistpoty> dholbach: if it *is* running till the last day, we definitely won't be able to "hand"-merge last runs packages
<dholbach> we can just talk to him
<\sh> actually for the remaining merges we have time to the 2nd of February
<\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<raphink> so on the 19th automatic merges stop
<raphink> but we keep merging manually till the 2nd of feb ?
<\sh> raphink: there are no automatic merges :)
<raphink> right?
<siretart> and hey, UVF is not the end of the world. if you can show that a new version from debian fixes some important problem, we can still sync it
<sistpoty> ah, good to know \sh
<\sh> raphink: only mom stops...and we have to stop on the 2nd
<raphink> \sh: I mean syncs
<lucas> raphink: right
<siretart> but we won't focus on merging anymore. we focus on bugfixing. of a bug can be fixed by a sync, even better!
<\sh> raphink: the auto sync robot is stopping, MoM is not running anymore
<sistpoty> ok, how will we handle uvf-exceptions? 
<raphink> yep got that :)
<sistpoty> same as last year: get dholbach's or ogra_ibook's ok?
<raphink> and we only sync as manual requests if syncs fix bugs
<\sh> sistpoty: I think the same way as we handle it in main..ask mdz or kamion 
<siretart> sistpoty: I propose the same procedure as with breezy
<sistpoty> s/last year/breezy/ 
<sistpoty> siretart++
<siretart> sistpoty: ogra appointed 2 or 3 delegates who proxied/approved sync requests
<dholbach> i think they will have better things to do
<dholbach> we should raise the topic in the TB meeting
<siretart> yes
<ogra_ibook> sistpoty, there was a documment anywhere on the wiki from the UBZ BOF where its outlined
<\sh> dholbach: we should :) 
<dholbach> since this was not explicitly mentioned in the spec
<ogra_ibook> dholbach, it was mentioned
<ogra_ibook> Kamion showed me the part
<dholbach> ogra_ibook: who approves exceptions?
<ogra_ibook> as it sounded there should be no exceptions ... 
<\sh> ogra_ibook: 
<\sh> We have found in the past that newer universe packages tend to demand newer dependencies in main. Accordingly, universe will enter UpstreamVersionFreeze at the same time as main, in order to reduce dependency tension between newer versions of packages in main and universe. The exact details of sync and merge schedules will be the decision of the MOTU team. As in main, syncs and merges to universe after UVF must be verified to build and in
<\sh> anted for new or updated dependencies).
<ogra_ibook> apart from that it will be as in all releases before, Kamion and mdz i think
<dholbach> ogra_ibook: you're wrong
<\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseProcess
<dholbach> "no exceptions" is wrong.
<siretart> ogra_ibook: come on, we will need exceptions, if we don't want to diverge totally!
<ogra_ibook> siretart, sure
<dholbach> Jan 06 13:50:53 Kamion        dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseProcess explicitly contradicts that, but we'll be flexible with exceptions for universe
<ogra_ibook> siretart, but at a very minimal base as i understand the above \sh just pasted
<dholbach> there you go
<crimsun> well, since we need a decision, how do dholbach and \sh feel about being the proxies? (Don't mean to exclude ogra, but I presume he'll be busy with Edubuntu)
<dholbach> crimsun: let's raise the topic at the TB
<\sh> the biggest problem is "new dependencies in main for universe packages" this we should avoid...for universe itself, we can get it straight, and we can discuss it with mdz/kamion 
<dholbach> and sort out the process explicitly
* siretart would volunteer again for proxying
<lucas> what do we do regarding REVU ?
<ogra_ibook> you can abuse me after feature freeze again ... i'll have more time then :)
<lucas> we just stop uploading packages on the 19th ?
* \sh is not volunteering because I don't know if i'm still there then :) (means online)
<ogra_ibook> lucas, new versions, yes
<ogra_ibook> lucas, exceptions need approval and extra review
<lucas> (this would lower the pressure on the MOTUs and let them concentrate on bugfixing)
<crimsun> dholbach: certainly; it would be nice to say "here are our proxies" when approved
<lucas> ogra_ibook: totally new packages are no longer accepted ?
<siretart> I'd really require a malone bugnr for each exception this time
<raphink> ogra_ibook: I understnad new packages are not considered new versions ?
<dholbach> lucas: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseProcess
<dholbach> Feature Freeze is the date
<sistpoty> do we have an agreement for exceptions already?
<crimsun> raphink: right, 1.2.3-(X+1) is fine, but 1.2.(Y+1)-X is not
<ogra_ibook> sistpoty, TB
<sistpoty> ok
<raphink> between UVF and FF, we keep getting new packages in, but not getting new versions of existing packages from Debian, alright?
<siretart> from DapperReleaseProcess: The exact details of sync and merge schedules will be the decision of the MOTU team.
<\sh> regarding new packages: this paragraph is important
<\sh> Since entirely new packages in universe are relatively safe and attract a number of new developers, they will be liberally admitted until FeatureFreeze if they do not require additional or newer dependencies.
<raphink> crimsun: I guess unless Y=-1
<raphink> ok
<raphink> :)
<raphink> so REVU is still up till FF
<dholbach> "new versions" are cumbersome
<siretart> yes
<sistpoty> \sh: ok, then we can defer the point "packages on revu" (I have already some thoughts about it, but let's defer this)
<dholbach> you can always pack a 3MB patch in debian/patches
<\sh> dholbach: go away :)
<raphink> lol
<ogra_ibook> dholbach, i was told that nobody will approve that anymore in breezy :)
<dholbach> so try to have this in mind, we really want minimal changes :)
<crimsun> that way madness lies (cf. vlc)
<LaserJock> next item?
<dholbach> yeah :)
<sistpoty> LaserJock++
<lucas> ok, I think the topic was covered. Shall we move on to FTBFS packages ?
<siretart> so, did we agree on the proxies yet?
<raphink> yep
<siretart> please repeat them
<sistpoty> siretart: deferred to TB, as I understood it
<\sh> siretart: TB ... and remove me from the list :)
<siretart> sorry, please not the TB
<ogra_ibook> sistpoty, the called proxies were \sh and dholbach 
<siretart> we should at least make proposals for the TB
<lucas> who is in charge of forwarding items to the TB ?
<\sh> ogra_ibook: the called proxies were siretart and dholbach
<ogra_ibook> but to get the right conact people we said TB
<ogra_ibook> \sh, and you :)
<raphink> TB is on 17th right?
<\sh> ogra_ibook: no...because of the private matters
<lucas> 15th I think
<lucas> but not sure
* raphink checks
<siretart> ogra_ibook: \sh doesn volunteer, and me alone is crazy
<siretart> ogra_ibook: I'd propose sistpoty as proxy
<lucas> ah no 17
<dholbach> i trust enough in siretart, sistpoty and slomo_ to have them decide too
<\sh> ogra_ibook: right now, I'm more a SPoF
<siretart> and slomo, right
<raphink> ;)
<ogra_ibook> dholbach++
<raphink> lucas: better for you to know and not miss it ;)
<lucas> :)
<dholbach> crimsun too
<raphink> ;)
<ogra_ibook> dholbach++
<dholbach> but we should decide on the number of people proxying in the TB meeting
<ogra_ibook> :)
<siretart> yay for crimsun! :)
<dholbach> and see how well we do
* dholbach hugs crimsun
<sistpoty> yay for crimsun from /me as well
<sistpoty> probably ajmitch for nightly changes?
* \sh can play the replacement proxy when there is a chance
<lucas> yeah, I was about to say that TZ problems should be considered
<\sh> but I wouldn't count on that
<ogra_ibook> how many did we have in breezy ? 3 ? 5 ?
<siretart> ogra_ibook: too few
<\sh> ogra_ibook: 4 or 5 ... you dholbach siretart I and ?
<ogra_ibook> lucas, you can cover TZ shifts on the ML :)
<ogra_ibook> i think ajmitch too
<lucas> true
<ogra_ibook> and crimsun
<siretart> ok, so I count 4 + 2 proxies, which need approval by TB, yes?
<ogra_ibook> so we were at least 5 
<dholbach> we need elmo to sync (or maybe to do approvals), let's raise the issue at the TB
<dholbach> we can still decide  then
<ogra_ibook> yuo
<siretart> ok
<ogra_ibook> err yup
<sistpoty> next item?
<ogra_ibook> elmo also need the list ...
<lucas> ok, packages that FTBFS (fail to build from source)
<lucas> who will do the mass testing ? how ? (pbuilder ?)
<\sh> upcoming todos
<sistpoty> lucas: not so fast...
<lucas> ah
<lucas> sorry
<lucas> missed 2 items :-)
<dholbach> lucas: test rebuild on the buildds?
<lucas> the buildd don't pbuild
<dholbach> we can infinity to do this
<\sh> so....bug fixing, unmet deps are the most common workloads these days after uvf 
<dholbach> they sbuild, yes
<sistpoty> ok, well I named the point "upcoming todo's" to try to list what should be our next priorities after uvf
<siretart> dholbach: yes, we should ask lamont for that. but earlier than for breezy!
<dholbach> siretart: absolutely, of infinity rather
<elmo> eh?
<\sh> ftbfs issues we can sort out with infinity/lamont and their "testbuilds of the universe"
<elmo> what are you guys talking about WRT me?
<ogra_ibook> elmo, uvf exception handling
<ogra_ibook> elmo, and who is your MOTU contact to approve stuff
<siretart> elmo: we agreed on proxies who are allowed to request syncs after UVF && FF from you
<elmo> oh, ok, fine
<LaserJock> I hate to be a pain but I gotta leave in 3 min. is there anything needing I or MOTUScience team? 
<sistpoty> LaserJock: from the agenda, nothing science-specific
<sistpoty> LaserJock: for the rest you can read the irc-logs or the minutes (once they are there)
<LaserJock> I just wondered about the LP team item
<sistpoty> ok, back to "what's priorities after uvf"
<ogra_ibook> bugs
<sistpoty> I guess one of the big priorities should also be reviewing packages... then we have unmet deps and bugs
<dholbach> new packages
<dholbach> yeah
<ogra_ibook> as its for main 
<dholbach> i'll do the apt-get.org import as well :/
<dholbach> but bugs, of course
<dholbach> the more the better
<dholbach> we have a *bunch* piled up on launchpad
<sistpoty> ok, for unmet deps, ajmitch wanted to write some stuff iirc... hopefully we'll have some webtool for it as well
<raphink> hehe
<siretart> sistpoty: I have this: http://tiber.tauware.de/~siretart/unmet/
<sistpoty> ah, yes, I forgot ;)
<lucas> which kind of deps ? build-deps ?
<siretart> lucas: no, binary dependencies
<\sh> ok...can we agree on "prio 1) bugs, prio 2) unmet deps prio 3) poke buildd when it's necessary to rebuild universe?"
<siretart> lucas: basically the output of apt-cache -i unmet
<sistpoty> \sh: and 4) reviewing new packages
<\sh> sistpoty: ok..that whould be 1b)
<\sh> not 4
<siretart> \sh: 3 does not necessarily block human ressources. I think it should be started quite quickly
<raphink> hehe
<sistpoty> siretart: you might want to talk to ajmitch, he said s.th. bout britney ;)
<lucas> we could run piuparts on the whole universe
<\sh> siretart: yepp...
<dholbach> if we all concentrate on a review day, we can achieve quite much
<lucas> this would catch them all
<sistpoty> lucas: catch what?
<raphink> yep I think so
<lucas> missing deps
<raphink> if we do better than last time ;)
<lucas> packages that don't install etc
<sistpoty> we might do many things, if s.o. volunteers ;)
<raphink> :)
<sistpoty> ok, next item?
<lucas> maybe there are some plans for this on the ubuntu scale
<lucas> not MOTU
<lucas> we should ask in TB
<sistpoty> oh, sorry, I forgot another important point that falls under "TODO"
<\sh> lucas: what plans?
<lucas> plans for pbuilder builds + piuparts runs
<dholbach> sistpoty: fire away
<sistpoty> point is: soyuz...
<\sh> lucas: hmmm..if, then it will be soyuz :) and buildd integration in launchpad :)
<sistpoty> will it come, when, what will change, are we going to die?
<lucas> \sh: I'm talking about dapper
<\sh> sistpoty: dapper +1 :) 
<lucas> not dapper+x ;)
<\sh> lucas: I don't think infinity will deal now with pbuilder :) 
<lucas> I'll take care of the issue with infinity and the TB
<sistpoty> \sh: ah, good to know... thought I heard some rumors of soyuz being available very next days :)
<siretart> sistpoty: we are definitly going to die, except the immortals ;) - but hopefully not related to ubuntu work 
<sistpoty> hehe
<lucas> I'm interested in providing CPU power too anyway
<ogra_ibook> lucas, for unmet deps, get familiar with germinate ...
<\sh> sistpoty: well...it could be as well a release cycle like "hurd" :)
<lucas> piuparts catches much more than germinate
<sistpoty> \sh: or longwait?
<raphink> \sh: you mean 1.0 is released in 20 years ?
<\sh> ASK #launchpad :)
<sistpoty> ok, I guess we're getting offtopic... let's move on to next point?
<dholbach> :)
<raphink> sistpoty: yep
<siretart> MOTU Team Reorg?
<\sh> ok..lp motu teams reorg
<sistpoty> lucas: your stage ;)
<lucas> There is currently a high number of MOTU-related teams on Launchpad. I proposed a new organization on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeetingTeamReorg which (I think) makes it easier to understand and use. Please read the wikipage and comment.
<\sh> ah well..
<\sh> the blue teams: members of the blue teams don't need to be members of MOTU
<\sh> everyone is normally allowed to enter :)
<lucas> there are no members of MOTU
<\sh> actually for MOTUIM :)
<lucas> except the owner + teams
<raphink> lucas : then the "normal" MOTUs are in Ubuntu-dev only?
<lucas> yes
<\sh> no
<\sh> ubuntu-dev means only people with universe upload rights
<raphink> \sh: according to the scheme I mean
<lucas> \sh: elaborate
<lucas> ok, so some people with universe upload rights are not MOTUs ?
<lucas> (that was my question on the list)
<\sh> lucas: yes
<\sh> lucas: every core dev has universe upload rights, but is not always a MOTU, neither interested in MOTU
<raphink> you have to be a dev to be a MOTU
<raphink> but being a dev doesn't make you a MOTU
<\sh> raphink: no..
<lucas> ok
<raphink> right?
<raphink> ...
<lucas> \sh: who are MOTUs then ?
<\sh> ubuntu-dev means only "universe upload rights"...
<raphink> yes
<ogra_ibook> ubuntu-core-dev is a member of ubuntu-dev 
<raphink> and I mean MOTUs are necessarily ubuntu-dev 
<raphink> s
<ogra_ibook> ubuntu-dev includes all MOTUs
<\sh> lucas: MOTUs is a bunch of people who wants to work on the universe repos and/or working on the distro as volunteer...they can go further with universe uploads rights, but they don't have to
<raphink> so among ubuntu-dev you have MOTUs, ubuntu-core-dev and others
<ogra_ibook> \sh, nope
<ogra_ibook> \sh, a MOTU is approved to upload
<\sh> ogra_ibook: no :) MOTUs includes all ubuntu-devs...but MOTUs are more ( regarding the team lists)
<raphink> hmm
<ogra_ibook> \sh, i was there when we wrote the definition
* sistpoty is confused
<raphink> do MOTUs belong to ubuntu-dev or ubuntu-dev belong to MOTUs ? ;)
<ogra_ibook> \sh, MOTUs are all memebers of ubuntu-dev
<\sh> ogra_ibook: in my POV MOTUs are Hopefuls + ubuntu-devs (reading the team names)
<raphink> sistpoty: same here
<\sh> ogra_ibook: not when I see the LP team list
<ogra_ibook> \sh, nope, there are MOTUs and there are MOTU hopefuls
<ogra_ibook> its ever been like this 
<raphink> adjime
<siretart> ogra_ibook: whats the difference between the lp group MOTU and ubuntu-dev? can't we merge them?
<lucas> ok, so how do we transpose this to LP teams ? :-)
<ogra_ibook> and there is a definition somewhere in the wiki
<ogra_ibook> ...from the mataro conference
<siretart> it causes much confusion
<\sh> ogra_ibook: sorry...I was mistaken...what the lp teams are
<ogra_ibook> siretart, yes, we should
<sistpoty> siretart++
<ogra_ibook> siretart, mdz didnt know about the exiatance of the MOTU launchpad group
<raphink> confusing
<lucas> ogra_ibook: can you comment on the proposed scheme on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeetingTeamReorg ?
<ogra_ibook> so he created ubuntu-dev, which is the official MOTU team now
<lucas> I used the MOTU as a way to join MOTU Hopefuls and ubuntu-dev
<siretart> ogra_ibook: ubuntu-dev is used for upload permissions, MOTU is used for bug triage/management atm
* lucas realizes nobody read his wiki page despite the announcement sent to ubuntu-motu@ ;)
<ogra_ibook> siretart, hmm, we should probably keep them distinct
<\sh> ogra_ibook: and we left the MOTU team because of the -bug mail address right?
<ogra_ibook> yup
<sistpoty> lucas: what is your rationale/use case behind this proposal?
<ogra_ibook> i doubt the TB would be happy if we used ubuntu-dev for bugs etc
<siretart> right
<siretart> because main developers won't probably care that much about bugs in universe, I assume
<lucas> sistpoty: it seemed it matched what I understood from this complex stuff ;)
<ogra_ibook> lucas, our policy for teams was always: everybody can join, it must be one MOTU and one point of contact in the team (they may be the same person) and teams organize themselves internally
<sistpoty> what do you want to achieve with this proposal?
<\sh> well..what we want to achieve? seeing a team which is there because of managing upload rights, and a more theoretical team named MOTU which can be the mother of all MOTU* teams :) in a more practical way
<ogra_ibook> to me it looks like you want to restrict access to cretain teams ...
<lucas> sistpoty: make things easier to understand from the user or potential MOTU Hopeful point of view
<ogra_ibook> *certain
<lucas> ogra_ibook: ? my proposal is not about teams like MOTUScience, MOTURuby, etc
<sistpoty> lucas: I'm not quite sure if using lp team relations will be succesful in making things clearer 
<ogra_ibook> Teams accepting direct members are in blue. All other teams have no direct members except owner/admins.
<sistpoty> lucas: instead of e.g. a wiki-page with some drawings like yours
<ogra_ibook> lucas^^^
<lucas> ogra_ibook: yes, and ?
<lucas> I never talked about team creation
<ogra_ibook> why would you restrict reviewers or mergers ?
* raphink is subscribed to reviewers and mergers 
<lucas> because we don't need them if everybody is in MOTU through inclusion relationships
<ogra_ibook> i just wouldnt put up rules for mergers or reviewers ... 
<\sh> lucas: and people who are not team members of any team?
<janimo> so can MOTUxxxxx teams have not-yet-motu members on launchpad?
<lucas> \sh: they are MOTU Hopefuls
<siretart> I think lucas proposal reflects reality better than the current situation in launchpad
<lucas> \sh: which is blue, too
<ogra_ibook> yes, everybody is a merger or reviewer in motu, why are there teams ? 
<\sh> lucas: well in the MOTU IM team I have someone, who is not even a motu hopeful, but wants to work on packages...
<sistpoty> ogra_ibook: for bug-mails
<ogra_ibook> sistpoty, hmm, confusing
<sistpoty> ogra_ibook: and for grouping bugs... that were the primary reasons
<lucas> ogra_ibook: because you can assign a bug to motureviewers to mark it as 'I think it's ready, review needed'
<siretart> ogra_ibook: I think you have a point there. every ubuntu-dev should be a reviewer rather than every motu
<\sh> ogra_ibook: to assign bugs towards those teams, that a mail is generated
<sistpoty> ogra_ibook: so that you can search for all bugs assigned to motu-merges (e.g.)
<lucas> \sh: no problem, he is part of the MOTU 'galaxy' too
<\sh> lucas: if "MOTU galaxy" is the MOTU team , then no
<lucas> MOTU IM is in blue, next to MOTU RUby ;)
<\sh> lucas: if you see it separated from the team view in LP then yes
<ogra_ibook> sistpoty, yes, i understand, i just find the need for a full team page confsing
<lucas> \sh: I don't understand what you mean
<ogra_ibook> but thats a LP limitation
<sistpoty> unfortunately :(
<lucas> \sh: with my proposal, MOTUIM is included in MOTU. So anybody in MOTUIM is also in MOTU
<\sh> lucas: the LP view is quite different from the idea of MOTU galaxy :) everybody who is bringing in patches to universe etc. belongs to the "MOTU galaxy" but they are not shown up in the LP team view of MOTU :)
<ogra_ibook> "What about universe maintainers not willing to do MOTU work ?" 
<ogra_ibook> what does this mean ? 
<siretart> lucas: with your proposal, every bug assigned to MOTUReviewers would be assigned to ubuntu-dev and ubuntu-core-dev, too
<siretart> lucas: so we would bother to many ppl with bugs we don't want them to bother
<lucas> ogra_ibook: ubuntu-dev members who don't do MOTU work
<ogra_ibook> lucas \sh: with my proposal, MOTUIM is included in MOTU. So anybody in MOTUIM is also in MOTU
<lucas> siretart: yup, what's exactly the point ogra just raised
<\sh> lucas: so ubuntu core dev :)
<ogra_ibook> ^^^that cant work
<lucas> so maybe we need a 'MOTU Developers' team instead of ubuntu-dev
<ogra_ibook> since MOTUIM can have non MOTU members
<ogra_ibook> as every team can
<lucas> or MOTUWithUploadRights team ;)
<ogra_ibook> you would make them MOTU automatically
<raphink> loooool
<lucas> ogra_ibook: please read 'MOTU' on the diagram as 'MOTU galaxy'
<lucas> if you prefer
<ogra_ibook> no, please dont
<\sh> okokokok
<lucas> if we :
<\sh> one moment...
<lucas> s/ubuntu-dev/MOTU/
<ogra_ibook> currently you refer to the LP team 
<lucas> s/MOTU/MOTUGalaxy/
<lucas> on a diagram
<lucas> would it be ok ?
<ogra_ibook> and this should only contain approved MOTUs
<ogra_ibook> thats even more confusing ...
<lucas> ok, so let's create a MOTU Galaxy team which includes all subteams
<siretart> lucas: what do you gain from another team?
<lucas> siretart: currently, there are members of all MOTU related teams
<ogra_ibook> yes, thats what i'm asking as well here
<lucas> some people are members of several teams
<\sh> technical solutions can't solve social problems
<lucas> which is useless, etc
* raphink still doesn't see the point
<lucas> there's a lot of redundancy
<ogra_ibook> its just bringing up more confusion
<sistpoty> \sh++
<ogra_ibook> i'd keep the LP teams distinct ...
<lucas> I'd just like a clean mapping of the reality to launchpad
<raphink> I don't see a pb with redundancy in teams
<\sh> so which view do you have: the social view of MOTU or the technical LP view of MOTU?
<raphink> I'm subscribed to ML that send me the same bugs three times
<raphink> and that's ok
* sistpoty agrees to ogra_ibook
<raphink> redundancy in work or bugs or so can be a pb
<siretart> what about breaking all inclusion relationsships in the MOTU Teams?
<raphink> but in teams ... well I don't see the pb
<lucas> MOTUIM is part of MOTU I think
<lucas> that's wrong, then
<lucas> so we do no relationships between LP teams ?
<ogra_ibook> yes
<\sh> lucas: no
<ogra_ibook> MOTUIM is a team with at least one MOTU
<ogra_ibook> but its not member of MOTU as whole team
<lucas> ok, let's reject the item, and just say that our policy regarding LP is 'join as much teams you can' :-)
<\sh> lucas: there is no relation between the MOTUIM team and the MOTU team .. the only connection to the MOTU team is me (and nafallo, slomo) but nothing else...it
<ogra_ibook> lucas, it isnt
<sistpoty> I guess the policy is come to #ubuntu-motu and talk to people... 
<lucas> ah sorry
<lucas> MOTURuby is member of MOTU
<ogra_ibook> lucas, join the teams you like to work with is and was the policy
<lucas> not MOTUIM
<ogra_ibook> nope
<ogra_ibook> it cant
<lucas> why is MOTURuby member of MOTU, and not MOTUIM ?
<lucas> it is.
<lucas> https://launchpad.net/people/motu
* ogra_ibook removes
<\sh> lucas: I'm in the ubuntu-dev team, because of the upload rights, I'm in the MOTU team, because I'm a MOTU and I'm team lead of MOTU IM...oh yes and the Kubuntu team 
<lucas> ok, so let's remove inclusion relationships between team
<lucas> s
<siretart> any objections?
<siretart> It seems to reduce confusion
<sistpoty> no objections... let's move to the next item
<ogra_ibook> hmm who added the teams there ? 
<janimo> maybe MOTU should be just the groups of people doing regular merges, transitions etc
<raphink> yeah next item :)
<siretart> ogra_ibook: confused ppl (like probably me)
<janimo> while the MOTUxxx groups usually care about one singel area and set of pacvkages
<lucas> that's me again
<\sh> not me
<lucas> next or not next ?
* sistpoty keeps the spotlight focused on lucas
<sistpoty> go on
<lucas> We currently accept a lot of packages through REVU. After they are uploaded, the maintainer is free to totally forget about it and leave us maintain them. I'd like to raise two issues :
<lucas>  * Maybe we should find a way (writing a policy ?) to actually make REVU uploaders feel more responsible of what they upload in the long term.
<lucas>  * Maybe we should consider removing some of the 300+ universe packages that are not in Debian. What's the procedure for this ? (note that popcon.u.c is broken, so we can't determine which packages are actually used).
<ogra_ibook> siretart, heh
<\sh> lucas: why? 
<lucas> \sh: why what ?
<\sh> lucas: ubuntu decided in the beginning not to have this maintainer thingy
<lucas> ok, but who cares about the packages ?
<lucas> I know we are not doing security updates for universe
<siretart> lucas: everyone and nobody, thats how universe works
<\sh> lucas: so actually I don't mind to touch packages which are not directly mine...but because they're in universe they're mine and yours and dholbachs and siretarts somehow
<ogra_ibook> lucas, they disappear if nobody cares for them 
<lucas> but every ubuntu user adding universe potentially get lots of root holes ;)
<ogra_ibook> thats normal evolution :)
<raphink> and if there is a new version in Deiban, it'll overwrite the package in universe anyway, which is likely to be for many of them since DDs are much more numerous
<lucas> also, since we don't check if packages still work, there might be a lot of broken packages in universe
<sistpoty> apart from that most of the ppl. of revu hang around in -motu or can be reached by mail... so it's easy to do a "nmu": just ask
<siretart> ogra_ibook: uuh, I think the 'dissapear' part is worth another point on the agenda
<ogra_ibook> siretart, why ? thats what happens ... 
<lucas> sistpoty: I'm not concerned about packages which are actually used by a lot of users
<lucas> I'm concerned about the invisible ones
<\sh> siretart: if they disappear from debian, they disappear from ubuntu at some very special time...
<lucas> potentially broken, or with security issues
<ogra_ibook> siretart, if nobody cares for them, they'll not survive a transition etc
<\sh> lucas: e.g.?
<lucas> no idea, because nobody here obviously know about them ;)
<lucas> ok, example: xnetcardconfig, a ruby packagez
<siretart> ogra_ibook: how many package actually got removed that way yet?
<lucas> not in debian
<lucas> uploaded once, never updated
<lucas> some users might have install it
<lucas> it might be rootable
<ogra_ibook> siretart, none, because we cared for most of them :)
<siretart> ogra_ibook: what about packages which got removed in debian but are still in ubuntu?
<\sh> lucas: hmmm...sure...there is a ruby team..and this team can decide if ubuntu needs this package or not
<ogra_ibook> siretart, if someone wants to care for them :)
<sistpoty> basically I dislike the idea of removing packages, just because nobody uses them
<lucas> ok
<siretart> I think we should work on a process for package removals
<lucas> problem is, I'm not using it
<lucas> but I don't know if somebody else is
<lucas> how can I know ?
<siretart> ogra_ibook: how to you know when 'nowbody cares anymore for a package'?
<raphink> I used to use xnetcardconfig lucas 
<\sh> lucas: I'm not using actually 95% of universe but should I propose to elmo to remove 95% of universe?
<raphink> once
<lucas> it was just an example
<lucas> \sh: that's exactly the problem
<\sh> lucas: but I do care about my universe work..and therefore I have to touch those packages, so I do care :)
<sistpoty> if nobody uses these/nobody has these installed, it's not a probrem if a packages has issues. if ppl. have it installed, it's likely that they'll report bugs
<\sh> even if i'm not using it in my daily work
<sistpoty> or even start caring for the package
<raphink> how many packages do we even merge that we won't ever use
<raphink> ;)
<ogra_ibook> siretart, if it lies broken on the floor in front of me and nobody complains ;)
<lucas> sistpoty: not likely. not many people report bugs
<\sh> raphink: a lot :)
<lucas> syncs/merges are different, since debian maintains them
<raphink> \sh: yes ;)
<sistpoty> and maybe some people use even the source (sourcepackage)
<siretart> ogra_ibook: cool. that would apply to mythtv!
<lucas> ogra_ibook: what about blog entries like 'ubuntu is crap, I installed this and it doesn't work at all!'
<\sh> lucas: hmmm...nope...many packages are not compatible with debian anymore....gajim is a good example...and I know why :)
<ogra_ibook> siretart, drop it then :) (but also deal with mdz afterwards ;) )
<siretart> ogra_ibook: he orphaned it and asked for an adopter
<ogra_ibook> lucas, look for a comment section and add a link to malone ;)
<\sh> lucas: well...we have settled communication channels like malone for bugs...we can't read all blog pages about "this and that is not working". there was one colleague of mine, who tried to do it, and forced us to read forum posts...well...he's gone now :)
<ogra_ibook> siretart, oh, he probably bought a TV now :)
<\sh> lucas: it doesn't work 
<ogra_ibook> who knows
<lucas> poll: do you prefer: (A) get as many packages in, even if we can't make sure all of them work as expected. (B) maintain a smaller amount of packages, but be reasonably sure they work.
* sistpoty casts a
<raphink> a
<\sh> lucas: how do you determine the need of (B)?
<siretart> lucas: a is how universe is constructed and expected to work
<\sh> lucas: and don't mention popcon
<lucas> \sh: by using popcon would be great
<\sh> lucas: no
<raphink> we want A
<raphink> A provides bugs
<raphink> and bugs make software better
<sistpoty> vote, \sh! ;)
<raphink> )
<raphink> :)
<lucas> raphink: you won't know anything about those bugs
<raphink> lucas: if they are reported, we will
<ogra_ibook> lucas, i agree with sabdfl on a ...
<ogra_ibook> its a declared target 
<doko_> sistpoty, dholbach, lucas, siretart: just updated the libstdc++ list, the allocator list is currently updating, no need to rebuild, they were all tried and failed. just fix ;)
<lucas> since joe doesn't know about bug reports and will only blog that ubuntu sucks
<crimsun> doko_: thanks
<\sh> software comes and goes....like the dinos
<siretart> doko_: thanks!
<dholbach> doko_: rocking, thanks.
<raphink> I consider open-source users to be generally a bit more responsible about reporting bugs than proprietary soft ones
<sistpoty> doko_: are they rebuilt on a daily basis?
<sistpoty> (the lists)
<sistpoty> and thanks doko_ btw ;)
<\sh> doko_: merci :)
<raphink> thanks doko_ 
<lucas> \sh: what's the problem with popcon ?
<\sh> lucas: it's off by default I think
<sistpoty> ok, since ogra_ibook had the ultimate vote (sabdfl's), what about considering a) the agreement and move to the next topic?
<lucas> http://popcon.ubuntu.com never get refreshed
<lucas> just a note
<\sh> lucas: and if it wouldn't be switched of by default, I would blog about breaking my private environment of ubuntu
<doko_> sistpoty: no, takes too long, I'll rebuild these on request
<lucas> does MOTURuby has the right to request removal of a ruby-related package ?
<sistpoty> ok, thx doko_: 
<\sh> sistpoty: there is no vote, because there is no mathematical solution for b)
<ogra_ibook> sistpoty, this came up at hoary time when we discussed apt-get.org inclusion
<lucas> if MOTURuby doesn't want to hear people saying that ruby sucks in dapper ?
<sistpoty> but can we agree to move to the next topic (at least :P)?
<crimsun> lucas: as opposed to fixing it?
<lucas> crimsun: yes
<lucas> because it's not integrated in debian, and nobody seems to care
<crimsun> it's going to have to be fixed _somewhere_, but yes, let's move on
<\sh> lucas: welcome to the world of volunteers :) 
<raphink> :)
<sistpoty> ok, next item: Collaborative maintenance on tiber via svn or other means
<sistpoty> who listed this? siretart?
<raphink> there are always people to criticize volunteer and not do anything to help ;)
<\sh> I'm publishing my bzr archives on tiber in my public_html dir :) 
<lucas> but there's no bzr-buildpackage
<siretart> sistpoty: yes, that was me
<lucas> also, collaborative maintenance != bzr model ;)
<\sh> lucas: so? I can use bzr and be able to export :) and use debuild and pbuilder...
<sistpoty> siretart: grab the mic ;)
<siretart> this touches a bit the previous point
<raphink> is that link to buxy's proposal?
<siretart> yes, sort of
<ogra_ibook> i do all my development in bzr (public available on p.u.c) as all main devs do 
<raphink> s/link/linked/
<siretart> buxy's proposal was to have a common svn repo, where interested ppl can just commit
<lucas> ogra_ibook: using bzr is a PITA when you don't have an account on tiber or somewhere else
<ogra_ibook> since launchpad will offer access to packages in bzr as well, i think you need to khave a working gateway layer to svn for this proposal
<siretart> we have quite some packages, which are activley maintained by us MOTUs and have no debian upstream
<ogra_ibook> lucas, that will change with the supermirror
<siretart> since we are doing team maintenance, I think it is reasonable to have a common repository for them
<lucas> ogra_ibook: ETA ?
<\sh> lucas: why? some webspace is enough..and it can be anywhere..if someone wants that I merge his branch, he should give me the location.
<ogra_ibook> lucas, no idea
<ogra_ibook> but soon i guess
<dholbach> i have a visitor here, i will leave now - but i'll read the irclog from now on.
<\sh> when hct is deployed
<dholbach> have a nice evening.
<siretart> I don't consider bzr suitable for group package maintenance yet, so I'd propose svn
<sistpoty> bye dholbach
<ogra_ibook> dholbach, have fun
<siretart> bye dholbach 
<dholbach> thanks a lot
<raphink> bye dholbach 
<siretart> we could host that repo on tiber and grant individuals svn access. this is basically buxys proposal for debian, right
<raphink> mhm
<lucas> yeah, why not do that on alioth ?
<siretart> my question is: does anyone have objections about this? - and should the different MOTU Teams have different repos or should everything go into ONE big archive?
<lucas> it would benefit more people
<sistpoty> siretart: what packages do you think of? all that became uploaded from revu? or just a subset of ppl. willing to do comaintenance?
<\sh> siretart: I thought buxys proposal was "collaborative work between ubuntu and debian or vice versa"...which means, debian is going away from maintainership
<siretart> lucas: because we are ubuntu and cannot occupy debians ressources for ubuntu development
<crimsun> siretart: would be best to stick to one big one
<ogra_ibook> lucas, because we have LP ?
<lucas> siretart: buxy proposed we do
<siretart> \sh: I didn't get buxy's proposal that way
<raphink> ogra_ibook: many DDs will refuse to work with LP :(
<lucas> \sh: buxy doesn't have the power to propose this ;)
<siretart> lucas: he is an alioth admin, why not?
<raphink> lucas: buxy has quite some power ;)
<lucas> siretart: I was talking about moving away from maintainership
<raphink> being one of the 3 or 4 alioth admins
<sistpoty> siretart: I'm already having a package on alioth (min12xxw) to test the collaborative maintenance
<siretart> lucas: oh, your right, sorry
<\sh> lucas: that's what I mean, how can they "pray" for a collaborative work, when they don't have such a system. svn doesn't mean, everyone is allowed to branch and merge and commit to one package at all
<ogra_ibook> raphink, LP will be the core of ubuntu development 
<siretart> sistpoty: If I find some time, I will apply, too
<raphink> yes ogra_ibook, so it's fine for us ubuntu devs and contributors
<sistpoty> but I don't know how many ppl. from debian side are caring for that alioth-project... if we come with 20 devs it might be overkill for alioth
<lucas> we could start on alioth using the collab-maint project, and move to LP when LP is ready (for dapper+1 or +2)
<sistpoty> (at least now)
<ogra_ibook> i dont discuss debian development here ... and i thought the topic is collaboration, not forc one or the other to use the others tools ;)
<siretart> ogra_ibook: you're right. I proposed using tiber, not alioth
<raphink> and I tend to agree
<lucas> siretart: how will you handle security ?
<siretart> ogra_ibook: some packages could be maintained on alioth, that would be more or less 'upstream work'
<ogra_ibook> siretart, thats fine 
<siretart> lucas: security in what way?
<lucas> if you give svn access to lots of people
<sistpoty> yes, basically I agree, siretart. we might have public read access and probably some few persons who can be naibed (bringing packages to utnubu/alioth)
<siretart> lucas: what do you want to protect from whom?
<ogra_ibook> i think its fine for the debian side to use alioth though
<\sh> regarding MOTUIM, I'm going to do the work with bzr...so gajim is bzr conform..xterm is bzr conform...and everybody who wants to branch, can branch, and if someone is giving me a pointer to a bzr archive and tells me, my patch is quite nice, I'll consider merging it, and daniels can take it over again, when ever he wants...and debian can use those archives as well...
<\sh> and nafallo is doing bzr as well :)
<siretart> \sh: do you have a list where can I branch what of 'your' packages?
<lucas> siretart: guys who get their system rooted, got no passphrase, and therefore give access to tiber from the outside
<ogra_ibook> lucas, thats why i prefer one controlled bzr archive ...
<siretart> lucas: I don't intend to give out shell access at all
<\sh> siretart: http://revu.tauware.de/~shermann/packages/ and you find all patch branches in separate branches :) take what you need :)
<lucas> ogra_ibook: svn-{inject,buildpackage} really rocks for collaborative maintenance compared to bzr
<\sh> siretart: the description of the directories is straight forward, if you are conform with the upstream development
<sistpoty> \sh: didn't you want to focus a bit on programming? what about bzr-buildpackage ;)
<\sh> sistpoty: it's called hct :) and keybuk is working on it :)
<raphink> :)
<sistpoty> but it's not ready yet :P
<\sh> sistpoty: well...until then I'm doing it the manual way
<lucas> siretart: have you contacted buxy about his proposal ?
<lucas> (also about REVU2)
<siretart> lucas: what do you mean exactly?
<sistpoty> back to topic again, I basically like the idea of having packages around at one central place, or at least one central place to know what packages reside where
<siretart> lucas: I joined the discussion on the mailing list
<lucas> well, maybe his opinion could be interesting
<raphink> buxy is on #ubuntu-motu currently
<raphink> ;)
<lucas> just a poll: we should use (A) svn on tiber or alioth, to be determined (B) bzr
* lucas votes A
<raphink> maybe he could jump in and give us his opinion
<sistpoty> erm... what about another suggestion: everybody to his likes
<\sh> sistpoty: to be honest, my central place to work with packages is archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu and a deb-src line in my sources.list...which means, all patches are inside the packages, or in the .diff.gz which I can read and understand :)
* raphink has no opinion on this matter
<lucas> sistpoty: what would you use ?
<lucas> it's a poll, not a vote
<siretart> \sh: the point is to give svn access to ppl which are not in the ubuntu keyring (yet)
<sistpoty> I'd prefer a), but if there is a package with b) there, I'd use b)
<ogra_ibook> lucas, you dont understand ... 
<\sh> siretart: the keyring has nothing to do with "populating changes towards packages".
<ogra_ibook> there will be a central mirror for ubuntu packages in bzr format in the future, so you need to use bzr
<sistpoty> \sh: and I also wrote that I'd like at least a list, where I can get to bzr or svn packages
<siretart> \sh: the same point is raised by buxy, btw. he wants to give ppl with no strong commitment to packages the chance to contribute to a collaborative development
<ogra_ibook> or a layer that imports it in your preferred system
<siretart> \sh: svn commit is way faster than filing patches via malone
<sistpoty> maybe we could provide svn on tiber, and have a wiki-page that states if a package is in svn or if it's in bzr and where to get it
<\sh> siretart: but this is contrary to the debian philosophy, and I see his proposal more in this way of a collaborative work between MOTUs and debian maintainers.
<sistpoty> hi buxy
<raphink> hi buxy 
<siretart> \sh: I don't think buxy proposale about collaborative maintenance was 'just' about collaboration between ubuntu and debian
<\sh> siretart: patches are small and if someone has to provide something, he can file a bug. or he is involved directly in #ubuntu-motu :)
<siretart> huhu buxy 
<siretart> \sh: I want to reduce overhead.
<\sh> siretart: and can send me a debdiff, bzr archive url, svn access, or what ever, if he's not a member of ubuntu-dev :)
<buxy> hi everyone, I'm sorry to join so late in the discussion but I've just been invited by sirestart and raphink :)
<raphink> ;)
<raphink> buxy: well I guess you're still the best guy to talk about your proposal and make it cleare
<raphink> s/cleare/clearer/
<buxy> Ok, if you think it's needed I can try explain the context
* raphink wonders why it's so silent here all of a sudden
<siretart> buxy: from this discussion here, I'm a bit confused. Did you really invite all MOTUs to commit and work on packages for ubuntu (and debian as well this way) in the collab-maint svn repo?
<\sh> following the last discussion at the Debian-QA meeting on Darmstadt, it
<\sh> appears that the proposal called "Collaborative maintenance" is of generic
<\sh> interest :
<\sh> - for Debian sponsors and Debian mentors
<\sh> - for QA which may use the infrastructure for orphaned packages
<\sh> - for Ubuntu's MOTU School
<\sh> this is the first paragraph of the mail :)
<buxy> siretart: it's a possibility that I offered yes, but as I told, the important part is what's above "svn" and we could make the infrastructure support more than just svn
<raphink> and I've actually been wondering what was meant by "MOTU School" 
<siretart> buxy: yes. I see. 
<\sh> raphink: he means MOTU motu school is something different..but quite popular :) 
<buxy> raphink: The MOTU school is the "mentoring process inside Ubuntu" for me :)
<raphink> oh ok ;)
<sistpoty> oh, he, no... it's irc lessons about a specific topic
<raphink> buxy: MOTU school is something else for us but ok :)
<raphink> at least I get it :)
<ogra_ibook> buxy, #ubuntu-motu is the mentoring process we use ;)
<lucas> buxy: you mean REVU actually
<lucas> (basically)
<buxy> \sh: yes the context is summed up in the wiki page, the project started for managing orphaned packages but we found out that it could be a good way to handle packages from new maintainers and in general for packages maintained by contributors outside of Debian (and MOTU are contributors outside of Debian for me)
<buxy> "contributors outside of Debian" is badly said, I should have said "non-DD contributors"
<\sh> buxy: so does it mean, debian will go away from the maintainership of packages and let everybody who wants touch packages? without being killed or flamed of the former maintainer?
<lucas> \sh: the proposal is about *some* packages, not all packages.
<\sh> lucas: even orphaned packages are still maintained..the former maintainer will help the new maintainer to take over the package..
<buxy> \sh: this can't be a one-day change, but maintainers who are willing to go in that direction could put their packages in a pool where many people could work on it
<\sh> lucas: (in the best situation)
<buxy> \sh: but not all packages will be managed that way
<siretart> buxy: does the debian QA team has a 'common' svn repo for orphaned packages?
<\sh> buxy: so it can be possible to branch this package source and provide an archive url towards the package maintainer...if I want to work on this particular package...
<\sh> buxy: despite the fact of a centralized package repository
<buxy> siretart: not yet, but QA people have nothing against that
<\sh> buxy: because this is my meaning of collaboration...if I want to contribute, the maintainer of package is always the last point of decision if he wants my patch or not
<siretart> buxy: currently, the utnubu team has its own 'common' svn repo. are they expected to keep their own repo or merge it with the collab-maint one?
<\sh> means: there is no need of something centralized..
<buxy> siretart: that's a topic that I haven't brought up yet, but of course I'd like to push in that direction
<tseng> eh
<\sh> moins tseng 
<buxy> \sh: collaboration is not only a tool, it's a behaviour
<buxy> \sh: if you work n a branch on your side, and tell the maintainer what you did and where he can get the stuff to get integrated, that's fine
<\sh> buxy: yes...and a nice one...but again...the maintainer is the last resort of the decision
<\sh> buxy: that's what I said, yes :)
<sistpoty> ok, let's try to get back to the topic?
<siretart> yes, please
<sistpoty> ok... what prosals are there/can we agree on s.th. or should we defer this?
<siretart> buxy: the discussion was to instantiate a common svn repo for us motus
<siretart> I proposed to host it on tiber, mainly because I did not want to abuse alioth for mainly ubuntu work
<\sh> sistpoty: what proposal...if it's regarding buxy, we are speaking of something to be made between debian and ubuntu, if we are talking about "motu collaboration" we have actually
<siretart> we want to maintain there package which we motu's activly maintain
* ajmitch prefers to do normal debian maintenance for those
<siretart> so the question is: should this be rather on tiber or on alioth. buxy: what do you think?
<ajmitch> for my packages, that is
<\sh> if we want to maintain the packages for ubuntu, then we should discuss an ubuntu way...if we are talking about debian and ubuntu, we should postpone this discussion to a better time and with all people involved in this....] 
<buxy> siretart: difficult to say, but hosting on alioth is ok for me as long as we agree that all packages which are not ubuntu-specific should also be integrated in Debian (even if the upload is in fact done by utnubu)
<lucas> \sh: can you define "all people involved in this" ?
<\sh> lucas: all debian responsibilities and as well all ubuntu reponsibilities. 
<\sh> lucas: because this is nothing for the motu meeting at all..it touches more then "svn repos for motu on tiber"
<ajmitch> lucas: it'd involve others from the utnubu team
<siretart> buxy: I think mostly about packages which are interesting for debian, too, but I didn't care enough for searching for a sponsor, because I did not wanted to be the only maintainer. I think there are quite some packages of this kind
<siretart> buxy: for packages which are only of interest for ubuntu, thats a clear matter
<siretart> buxy: what is the procedure to get svn access to the collab maint svn?
<buxy> siretart: okay, then I think alioth is a good choice
<tseng> siretart: anyone can get an account on alioth
<buxy> siretart: mail me and tell me your alioth login name and why I should add you to the project :)
<tseng> siretart: team members can give you access to the svn
<buxy> tseng: team admin only
<ajmitch> buxy: can I join too? :)
<buxy> ajmitch: sure :)
<siretart> buxy: great. will do. (my login is siretart-guest ;)
<ajmitch> I'll get over my dislike of svn one day
<siretart> ok. I think we are done with this point
<siretart> next?
<sistpoty> siretart++
<sistpoty> next point is "Brainstorming/Ideas how to organize divergence in our universe"
<sistpoty> who's one was that?
<ogra_ibook> "divergence in our universe" ??
<siretart> lucas: I think http://tiber.tauware.de/~lucas/versions/unimultiverse.html is really rocking! I wanted to say you a big THANK YOU for that
<sistpoty> ogra_ibook: copy'n'paste from wiki
<siretart> ogra_ibook: I'm talking about divergence from our upstream: debian
<lucas> :-) thank you for hosting me
<lucas> and thank sistpoty for providing the merge comments :)
<sistpoty> he, np
<siretart> lucas: you have a coloum there for notes on individual packages which can be edited via the wiki
<lucas> siretart: yes ?
<\sh> siretart: when debian will adjust to our infrastructure, e.g. modular xorg etc. those diffs will automagically go away
<siretart> I'd like that everyone who touches a package in ubuntu makes a note about what kind of divergence the package is in ubuntu. perhaps you remember my posting to the mailinglist
<siretart> \sh: exactly thats my point
<\sh> siretart: transitions...well, if they are announce earlier for debian then ubuntu, then we will have less packages to touch, if not..well you know the fun :)
<ajmitch> \sh: xlibs-dev is removed from sid now - I think it's just the gl libs that are a hassle
<siretart> \sh: I'd like to know when all patches e.g. because of xorg are obsolete
<lucas> siretart: I started that for ruby packages, but not sure if there should be a 'MUST' here
<ajmitch> siretart: that would require us to identify by patch that it's a build-depends change :)
<ajmitch> siretart: it *could* be done with grep & a fair bit of work
<sistpoty> I already feared, you would say that, ajmitch ;)
<\sh> siretart: there was last time a blog post of the xorg maintainer, and he is pushing the modular xorg now into debian, so it can be, that for dapper+1 those changes are gone
<ajmitch> sistpoty: why do you say that?
<sistpoty> ajmitch: that it could be done automatically ;)
<siretart> ajmitch: there are many types of divergence. I'd like to have some more overview and statistics about how far we are diverged from debian and why
<ajmitch> sistpoty: nah, I didn't say automatically
<\sh> siretart: means dapper+1 will be a fcking sync orgy
<sistpoty> ajmitch: come on, you implied it :P
<ajmitch> sistpoty: certainly, and we can identify a few of those automatically, to keep sistpoty happy :)
<ajmitch> heh
<sistpoty> hehe
<siretart> \sh: that would be really awesome, because I think we have diverged from debian to much. and way too often unnecessarily
<ajmitch> siretart: of course, and it's always a matter of what time we have to sort this out
<sistpoty> siretart, lucas: where should we post/submit the divergence?
<ajmitch> in between the bugfixing
<\sh> siretart: well...patches like launchpad integration etc. which are not taken by debian upstream neither real upstream will stay in ubuntu, so we will always have an ubuntuX package
<siretart> sistpoty: and now we come to the point I wanted to raise
<lucas> sistpoty: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUNotes
<ajmitch> siretart: not filing bugs, is it?
<siretart> sistpoty: I think we have 2 options: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUNotes, or some more magic with postgresql and javascript.
<siretart> ajmitch: would you really file a new bug for each diverged package explaining why it diverged? that would be true overkill
<sistpoty> siretart: I don't like the 2nd option... we'd need some kind of user management for this to work
<siretart> sistpoty: why?
<sistpoty> siretart: because otherwise everyone could change the type of divergence?
<siretart> sistpoty: a wiki doesn't need usermanagement, too
<siretart> sistpoty: *Shrug*. wikipedia works too
<sistpoty> siretart: it does... and it has revision control as well
<lucas> siretart: I don't care, just generate or help me generate a text file with the MOTUNotes syntax
<lucas> I can add several other columns to the reports if needed ;)
<\sh> to be honest, we can't avoid to be different in some areas from debian, and we shouldn't want to avoid it. infrastructure reasons are one point, but special ubuntu patches or patches we can provide upstream is something else
<siretart> \sh: I strongly disagree
<siretart> \sh: I think we should avoid divergence where possible, because we are really lacking ressources
<\sh> siretart: you can't force debian to apply our gnome patches e.g. for launchpad
<sistpoty> \sh: the advantage would be to have "all packages with motuglutransition" at hand, and once debian and ubuntu are back in sync, this might save a lot of work
<\sh> sistpoty: this is "infrastructure" which will go away
<siretart> \sh: please don't overread the 'where possible and necessary' part. I certainly know that we want some divergence, but I think we have way too much of it
<\sh> sistpoty: the same applies for transitions..as we saw from breezy to dapper :)
<\sh> siretart: don't blame us, blame the slowliness of the transitions in debian...honestly
<sistpoty> exactly, but what do you mean with infrastructure, that will go away?
<siretart> \sh: I don't want to blame anyone, I want to solve problems
<\sh> siretart: the system how debian works is really different from ours...and even if we're less people then debians DDs and NMs, we are quite faster in those transitions.
<siretart> \sh: so what?
<\sh> siretart: so you can't avoid it...and thinking about sabdfls speech at debconf5 those deltas are really normal
<\sh> siretart: for ubuntu.
<\sh> siretart: the solution is "time"
<lucas> some of them are normal, some of them aren't
<\sh> lucas: which aren't normal?
<lucas> bugs fixed in ubuntu but not reported upstream, for example
<siretart> \sh: http://tiber.tauware.de/~lucas/versions/unimultiverse.html lists about 900 packages, which of same upstream version in both ubuntu and debian (but ubuntu hast 'local' changes)
<sistpoty> \sh: but I still think we might gain much time, if we could categorize the reason, why a package diverges from debian, whilst doing merges
<lucas> we have to stay at a stable distance from debian. not increase this distance release after release
<siretart> \sh: I suspect a big part of them to be unnecessary. and 900 diverged packages is definitly way to much for us
<siretart> lucas: how often is that list updated?
<\sh> ok ok..
<\sh> short summary
<\sh> what do we have:
<lucas> every 6 hours
<sistpoty> \sh: consider that you can just see: ah siretart last uploaded foo and transitioned it to c2a... debian/changelog states the same, then you'll only need to check if the debian package did it right
<lucas> siretart: read http://tiber.tauware.de/~lucas/versions/ ;)
<\sh> we have packages with more actual upstream version means  0UbuntuX
<siretart> 82 packages
<\sh> sistpoty: yes..that's what we did in dapper with the c2 transitions.
<\sh> sistpoty: and we will do the same for dapper+1 with all c2a transitions
<\sh> we have packages which were renamed from us, but not renamed by debian
<\sh> (but will be in time)
<siretart> \sh: please. 900 packages is really ridiculous. our main divergence should be in main, not in universe. we simply don't have the ressources to maintain it
<\sh> we have packages, which have special ubuntu patches applied, those patches debian never will apply
<sistpoty> \sh: yes, and that's the reason to categorize the divergence... to see if patches need to be reapplied or if it's probably a sync candidate
<siretart> \sh: now you slowly get the point. I want a list where I can look of what kind of divergence (i.e. why the package was diverged from debian) a given package has
<\sh> siretart: so we need a tool which fetches the debian source package and fetches the ubuntu source package and run a diff 
<\sh> siretart: and we need someone who has knowledge about all the changes and he can classify them
<buxy> \sh: people.u.c/~scott/patches/ :)
<sistpoty> \sh: the tool is mom... but that doesn't classify them
<siretart> \sh: and I'd propose lets do that marginally. everytime someone touches a package causing divergence or working on merges he should add a note what kind of divergence that package has
<\sh> siretart: most propably we will find out, that our people were doing the dpatch/simple-patchsys way, debian is doing the diff.gz way...or the other way around...
<sistpoty> hehe, buxy
<ajmitch> \sh: sounds like a job for an unemployed motu like me ;)
<\sh> siretart: and then we have ubuntu packages where we fixed a bug from our bugtrackers...
<\sh> or simple .desktop files 
<lucas> we could start by making very verbose changelog entries
<buxy> siretart: if you keep that info somewhere, please make it parsable by a program so that I can make that information available together with "sctottish pacthes" for Debian maintainer
<lucas> so we know *exactly* what changed
<buxy> in the Package Tracking System
* sistpoty has just an idea
<ajmitch> buxy: good idea
<\sh> lucas: what means "verbose changelog entries" ?
<siretart> buxy: I have in mind that this information is valuable to both debian and ubuntu, as it helps minimizing divergence
<lucas> \sh: no need to read the rest of the debdiff to know what changed
<buxy> because actually Debian maintainer can grab the diff but they don't always know why the changes have been made
<\sh> lucas: added .desktop file is quite simple and meaning full...reading the source and debian/rules should be accomplished by someone who is working on packages at all
<sistpoty> siretart: if we use revu logins, we already have a user-system... I guess I could easily h4ck up the merge list to store some catagories as well
<\sh> lucas: that is wrong
<\sh> lucas: because you need to know more then only the changelog and the diff.gz.
<\sh> lucas: today one DD gave me an example....source package ppp
<ogra_ibook> siretart, sistpoty, err, isnt revu2 supposed to be included in LP ?
<siretart> sistpoty: we could also use revu for authentication. but I'm not convinced that we would need authentication at all, because I don't think there is much interest for vandalism with wrong entries
<siretart> ogra_ibook: yes
<ogra_ibook> siretart, sistpoty, in which case LP logins will apply ...
<\sh> doko wrote after the merge something like this in the changelog: "
<lucas> \sh: the changelog, if verbose enough, is enough to categorize packages
<\sh> * Synchronise with Debian unstable.
<\sh>   * Still keep the pppoe_on_boot stuff.
<sistpoty> ogra_ibook: tiber isn't whitelisted for lp yet... if it was, I guess it would be trivial (at least from reading the interface specs)
<siretart> ogra_ibook: yes. my point stand, I don't think that we would need authentication at all, but I could live with lp accounts
<ogra_ibook> siretart, yup
<sistpoty> siretart: if I make a web interface w.o. accounts, everyone could change the catagory... I don't like that
<\sh> lucas: reading this, is verbose enough, because I know that we have a pppoe on boot functionality...reading the diffs but shows me, that this feature was just gone in the debian package long ago, but we need it
<sistpoty> siretart: other possibility was to hack up lpbugs and handle this by bugs in malone
<siretart> sistpoty: I want everyone to be able to change the category and even to introduce new categories
<siretart> sistpoty: do you fear much vandalism?
<sistpoty> siretart: i'm pretty paranoid ;)
<buxy> \sh: and the interesting stuff is to understand why this feature is needed by Ubuntu and why it has been removed in Debian :) did the Debian maintainer have a nicer solution to the problem ?
<siretart> what do others think? is there a big danger from vandalism?
<\sh> buxy: no :)
<sistpoty> siretart: possibility was to use wiki, but that would mean to have a "divergence" in catagories
<\sh> buxy: that's why he complained today :)
<\sh> buxy: but he didn't want to read the diff..but my opinion is, as package maintainer you should 
<lucas> siretart: you need to be able to restore a previous version easily
<lucas> siretart: I'm not sure such a page would be enough.
<\sh> buxy: and if I need some more info, I'll ask the guy who did the merge :)
<ajmitch> buxy: we'll always run into problems when we make some changes without proper understanding of the package, just for a quick fix :)
<siretart> so we have 4 possibilities: (a) don't categorize since uneccesary work (b) categorize via wiki/MergeNotes (c) categorize via webtool and login (d) categorize via webtool without login
<lucas> we need to be able to put a package into several categories
<siretart> lucas: right
<ajmitch> I know I'd even be wary of MOTUs patching some of my debian packages :)
<sistpoty> and a user should be able to add a catagory
<lucas> (e) categorize via bugs, or a specific interface in LP
<sistpoty> :(
<\sh> ajmitch: hmmm? :)
* siretart votes for (d)
* lucas not sure yet
<ajmitch> siretart: why no login?
<ogra_ibook> sounds like a cool database project :)
<lucas> we want knowledgeable people to do the tagging
* sistpoty votes for (c)
<lucas> so login is fine
<\sh> ogra_ibook: long term :)
* ajmitch thinks (c)
<ogra_ibook> yup
* slomo_ is for (c) too
<\sh> oh wow...a lot to read for me for the minutes :)
<slomo_> (hi btw, sorry for beeing that late, didn't notice that there was a meeting :/ )
<sistpoty> hi slomo_
<siretart> ajmitch: no login because I don't fear vandalism and I want to make it as easy as possible to use
<ajmitch> slomo_: don't worry, I was 2 hours late
<siretart> hi slomo_ 
<siretart> ok, the majority seems to be (c)
<ajmitch> slomo_: being 3 hours late is no obstacle, we're still going ;)
<siretart> I think I'll meet with sistpoty in person and get details about this discussed with him, ok?
<siretart> sistpoty: ok?
<sistpoty> siretart: sure
<ajmitch> ah, closed secret meetings? ;)
<buxy> a town name please !
<siretart> ajmitch: of course, secret cabal and such ;)
<siretart> buxy: we are at the same university, in erlangen ;)
<ajmitch> siretart, sistpoty: we need to discuss some REVU2 coding sometime also
<Lathiat> motu m eeting?
<sistpoty> buxy: erlangen probably, or nuremberg
<siretart> ajmitch: right
<ajmitch> Lathiat: yes
<Lathiat> *still* going? :)
<ajmitch> Lathiat: yes
<buxy> hehe, the famous erlangen meeting !
<Lathiat> ok :)
<ajmitch> buxy: better than vancouver :)
<siretart> lol
<\sh> ejabberd is in erlangen 
<sistpoty> ajmitch: oki
<sistpoty> ok... what's left to discuss? date and time of next meeting?
<siretart> I think so
<siretart> 3h meetings are too long
<sistpoty> definitely
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> far too long
<sistpoty> I guess it would be good just after uvf?
<ajmitch> 2 weeks from now?
<ajmitch> nah
<lucas> siretart: please mail a summary of what you intend to do to ubuntu-motu. I'm interested in this :-)
<\sh> wasnt it the first meeting after ubz?
* ajmitch will be at LCA in 2 weeks ;)
<ajmitch> lucas: they will have to
<sistpoty> ajmitch: sure, that's what I call "just after uvf" ;)
<lucas> siretart: and setup those backups for tiber ;)
<siretart> lucas: I'll try :) - most of this was already said in my first post this year
<ajmitch> lucas: I also want to discuss some things with you..
<siretart> lucas: yes, thats on my list, too
<siretart> next meeting in 2 weeks?
<lucas> ajmitch: now ?
<siretart> objections?
<sistpoty> time, 20.00 utc?
<lucas> time is fine for me.
<ajmitch> lucas: whenever suits
<Lathiat> mm 4am :)
<sistpoty> time for objections left: 5
<sistpoty> 4
<ajmitch> sistpoty: hm, I'll be busy then
<sistpoty> ajmitch: propose another time
<\sh> 3...2...1...
<ajmitch> nah, it doesn't matter
* ajmitch is just another face in the crowd
<siretart> ok. I need to go now, sorry
<buxy> ajmitch: you're an important face
<sistpoty> no, we can't meet at 20.00h... -meeting is busy there
<sistpoty> gn8 siretart
<slomo_> bye siretart :)
<siretart> I wish you a good night, sleep well everyone!
<ajmitch> bye siretart 
<\sh> sistpoty: put a date and time on the wiki page..I'll promote them in the minutes :)
<buxy> we don't have so many people with double hat MOTU/DD outside of the core developers paid by Canonical
<sistpoty> \sh: I vote for ajmitch to put it there ;)
<ajmitch> buxy: no, I think I'm one of the few who can upload to main, universe & debian who's not employed :)
<\sh> whatever :)_
<ajmitch> sistpoty: 2000 UTC is 9am for me, I'm busy all that week of the 23rd-28th
<ajmitch> so I can't hold others back
<\sh> damn..I forgot to kiss ajmitch's feet while I had the time during UBZ ,)
<ajmitch> \sh: you'd get a kick in the mouth :P
<\sh> ajmitch: hehe :)
<sistpoty> ajmitch: there is status meeting at 20.00 utc, so we can't meet at that time and I don't have any preferences 
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-18
<ajmitch> most people are in europe now, what's a suitable time for you?
<sistpoty> he, I'm a student, so my time is a bit different then normal peoples time ;)
<lucasd> ajmitch, where are you from?
<ajmitch> lucasd: new zealand
<lucasd> oh, I see..
<sistpoty> 22.00 utc?
<sistpoty> 24.00h utc?
<ajmitch> eek
<ajmitch> that's getting late for europeans who actually work ;)
<sistpoty> 8 utc?
<sistpoty> *g*
<ajmitch> 8utc might be better, could be too early for you ;)
<lucas> what about 22.00 utc the day before ?
<ajmitch> shall we take it to the list?
<lucas> or 2000 utc
<ajmitch> get an agreement for a meeting in 2-3 weeks, settle on a time in the next week
<sistpoty> yeah... defer it to the list... we need this meeting to be over now ;)
<lucas> ok
<ajmitch> or a launchpad poll! ;)
<sistpoty> yeeehaa!
<\sh> well..good night :)
<sistpoty> meeting adjourned ;)
<sistpoty> gn8 \sh
<ajmitch> night \sh 
<\sh> doing the minutes somehow tomorrow or saturday...depends on my timeframe of action
<sistpoty> phew... that was long
<slomo_> gn8 everybody :)
<sistpoty> gn8 slomo_
<raphink> ooops sorry I had to go in the middle of it :s
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 13 Jan 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting  | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 19 Jan 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council
<jsgotangco> yo!
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> only us?
<LaserJock> I sure hope not
* jsgotangco sighs
* jsgotangco hugs Madpilot 
<Madpilot> good morning
<jsgotangco> heh 3 people this isn't good
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, you've been writing lately right?
<LaserJock> well, a bit. It's not easy wearing so many hats :(
<jsgotangco> yeah :(
<azeem> hi
* jsgotangco only hears crickets...
<LaserJock> I've been trying to do reaseach, not ignore my wife, run the MOTUScience team, and do some packaging guide
<LaserJock> hi azeem 
<azeem> oops, this is -meeting
* jsgotangco sigh
<jsgotangco> nobody wants a meeting on friday the 13th
<jsgotangco> let's just move this on the 27th, 22:00UTC?
<LaserJock> darn, I woke up 0600 so we could move it? oh well
<Madpilot> likewise :P
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, yeah it sucks i'm really sorry
<Madpilot> ah well, I can go back to bed for an hour now :)
<jsgotangco> we've been having a hard time getting a good number of people on -meeting lately
<LaserJock> I understand
<LaserJock> we had a 3 hour MOTU meeting yesterday
<jsgotangco> but for some reason we get to talk on the channel at any time with no problems
<LaserJock> it helps when you have a large number of opinionated people
<jsgotangco> unfortunately, docs seems to be a boring thing for community
<jsgotangco> (well docs in the distro that is)
<jsgotangco> (i hope we don't become a gnome-docs soon)
<LaserJock> yeah, I have been trying to poke the MOTU for feedback on the Ubuntu Packaging Guide but really haven't gotten any response
<jsgotangco> I asked zakame to verify it though
<jsgotangco> he made some changes in the wiki
<jsgotangco> because i reviewed the doc in svn
<jsgotangco> it didn't work with me
<dholbach> LaserJock: We repeatedly said to talk to Diziet, since he'll work on the other Ubuntu Packaging Guide.
<LaserJock> dholbach: Diziet doesn't say anything, he hasn't begun working on the Ubuntu Developers Reference
<jsgotangco> oohh north america wakes up
<LaserJock> dholbach: I think he is very busy with other thing, which is understandable
<dholbach> LaserJock: Yeah, because he's quite busy.
<dholbach> There's indubitably lots of pioneer work to do.
<jsgotangco> dholbach, someone who knows has to review it at least...it doesn't take that much to read over the doc imo
<LaserJock> dholbach: but I sent an email out to -motu asking for feedback and didn't get a single reply :( But I understand that people are busy and many aren't very interested in docs
<jsgotangco> its not that much either
<dholbach> LaserJock: I'm truely sorry for that.
<jsgotangco> dholbach, i tried it out a few weeks ago before the holidays and it didn't work well with me, zakame reviewed some and made wiki changes and that's it
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: what did you try out?
<dholbach> LaserJock: I'm very very busy myself, but send me the doc as a mail or the link to it and I'll try my best.
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, himmm don't remember..i can do it again
<jsgotangco> i can do an rpm but a deb escapes me really
<LaserJock> well, I am starting from scratch so the packaging guide at doc.ubuntu.com will be replaced
<jsgotangco> i tried the one in svn
<LaserJock> yeah, that would be the one
<LaserJock> I (and theCore) are working on a total rewrite 
<jsgotangco> i can do a grammar/structure review if needed
<LaserJock> ok, thanks for the offer
<jsgotangco> (i should also make a review of the styleguide)
<LaserJock> dholbach: don't feel too bad, if people don't have the time they don't have the time. I just feel uneasy about me doing this by myself when I'm still pretty new to packaging.
<dholbach> absolutely. I understand.
<dholbach> Docs are terribly important, and I'd love to see them in good shape.
<dholbach> Because that's what a lot of new MOTUs are complaining about.
<dholbach> So I'll try to get to it asap.
<jjesse> doh is it that time already
<LaserJock> dholbach: well, I don't have anything worth looking at right now, I will email you when I do, OK?
<jsgotangco> dholbach, interestingly enough, sabdfl told me before he wanted to do a set of development docs...but that's understandable he's a busy guy, but there's a need for such
<dholbach> LaserJock: Excellent, thanks.
<dholbach> dholbach: maybe he intended to let Diziet do it?
<jsgotangco> dholbach, in a commercial pov, it makes sense in creating a brand identity in my opinion
<dholbach> jsgotangco: concerning the MOTU?
<jsgotangco> dholbach, no development docs in general
<dholbach> jsgotangco: Could you elaborate? I don't quite understand.
<LaserJock> well, if all goes well this Ubuntu Packaging Guide will really rock I think. Most of the info about packaging .debs is scattered about the web
<jsgotangco> how do i explain it fully
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> well ok let's just do this one more time and slowly
<jsgotangco> we'd like a packaging guide in time for release
<dholbach> yeah
<jsgotangco> at the moment, it deseperately needs peer review 
<jsgotangco> because without review, edits won't happen
<dholbach> yes
<jsgotangco> i reviewed the doc before the holidays but i find it terse...
<jsgotangco> ok terse is a wrong word
<LaserJock> well for now you guys could review the outline at w.u.c/UbuntuPackagingGuide if you wanted to
<jsgotangco> what i can do is soften the doc when it gets reviewed technically
<jsgotangco> checking
<dholbach> I have a visitor here over the weekend, so I daresay I won't find the time, but please send me a mail and I'll try to get to it ASAP, once I've done, I'll mail the rest of the guys, tell them that I was a good boy everybody should get to it quickly or i'll tell them that they are the reason that MOTU doesn't scale enough - how does that sound?
<LaserJock> dholbach: lol, ok
<jsgotangco> sure
<dholbach> ok :)
<jsgotangco> come to think of it
<jsgotangco> your visitor can help
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> joke
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: depends on the visitor ;-)
<jsgotangco> the close to dholbach the better
<dholbach> It's a she, so I daresay we'll find more interesting things to do.
<jsgotangco> s/close/closer
<jsgotangco> we need dholbach to focus on more important stuff, say like us...
<LaserJock> dholbach: more interesting than Ubuntu, come on, you can't be serious ;p
<jsgotangco> or else we'll spam his mailbox with wiki edits
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> you guys rock!
<jsgotangco> flattery will get you nowhere!
<LaserJock> well, I think my wife might be starting to hate Ubuntu as much as any Gentooist out there ;-)
<LaserJock> "all you do is talk to the Ubuntu guys"
<jsgotangco> ok let's just adjourn this and move it to the 27th at 22UTC
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: yes sir
<jsgotangco> we'll let dholbach enjoy the weekend for now
<Nafallo> LaserJock: tell her you are one of them then? and that she is doing the same every time she talks to you <g> :-)
* jsgotangco snicker
<dholbach> :)
<LaserJock> Nafallo: yeah, that will get me brownie points for sure ;-)
<jsgotangco>  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting  | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 19 Jan 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council
<jsgotangco> acgghhh
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:jsgotangco] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting  | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 19 Jan 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Nafallo] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 19 Jan 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council | 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting
<MrRio> missed it .. :P
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 19 Jan 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council | 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-20
<dholbach> ID
<ogra> id ?
<dholbach> typo :)
<dholbach> hi ogra
<ogra> hey dholbach, thanks for the scribus fisx
<dholbach> de rien
<ogra> no Cd builder here though ...
<ogra> so i have to wait anyway 
<ogra> playing with my new thin clients :)
<dholbach> that was a mistake easy to make
<dholbach> all those python imaging * packages - i thought they were all in main anyway ;)
<ogra> oops we're in -meeting :)
<dholbach> yeah :)
<jsgotangco> hey :)
<dholbach> hey jsgotangco :)
* dholbach prepares some tea
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-21
<alanis> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-22
<MarioMeyer> heya ealden 
<MarioMeyer> can i pvt?
<ealden> hi MarioMeyer 
<ealden> sure
<anandaputra> hi all..
<anandaputra> is there any asiabusinesstour team member here?
<janimo> ajmitch hi
<janimo> you know moderators for this chan?
<frans-th> hi anyone
<frans-th> hande here?
<hybrid> when is the Xubuntu meeting?
<raphink> topic
<raphink> ;)
<technolalia> hybrid: Xubuntu meeting will be after the Tech Board meeting, I presume
<ranf> hi
<raphink> hi ranf 
<mjg59> Keybuk: Who are we expecting tonight?
<janimo> hybrid in an hour
<Keybuk> mjg59: me, thee and mdzee
<mjg59> Keybuk: Cool
<janimo> could somebody add that to topic so people don't  start asking during TB meeting?
* Kyral sits in while doing homework
<janimo> xubuntu meeting as 21:00 UTC tonight
<ogra> janimo, that will clash with TB i guess ... unless we stay below an hour with TB
<mjg59> janimo: You're optimistic about how quickly we'll be done :)
<mjg59> (Though I'd like to be somewhere at 9, so I'll try my best)
<janimo> well no harm in xubu people sitting in the TB meting :)
<sivang> what's those changes to the control file fieldsI'm reading on the agenda?
<ajmitch> there's a few things to argue^Wdiscuss on the agenda today, so it doesn't look to be under an hour :)
<janimo> anyway IRC is all about cross-talk we can hold'em simultaneously
<ajmitch> sivang: we'll get to that in the meeting
<mjg59> janimo: Please don't make me hurt you
<mjg59> :)
<lucas> sivang: some DDs want to be removed from the Maintainer field, basically
<janimo> mjg59, I blame society for all I said before
<hybrid> ok ty technolalia and janimo 
<raphink> lol
<raphink> hi sistpoty && StevenK 
<sistpoty> hi folks ;)
* StevenK is trying to wake up.
<StevenK> It isn't really working.
<sivang> ajmitch: you have a link to a relevant d-d ml thread? 
* Hobbsee throws a bucket of ice cold water on StevenK 
<StevenK> Argh!!!
<StevenK> Don't *do* that.
<Hobbsee> hehe!  that should wake you up!
<lucas> sivang: looking for it
<StevenK> That's *brutal*.
<StevenK> Hobbsee: Is it 7 for you, or earlier?
* Hobbsee giggles uncontrollably
<azeem> StevenK: do you mean ice cold water, or posting links to debian-devel?
<Hobbsee> it's 7am, yes - but i didnt have to wake up to start with
<StevenK> Heh
<hub> hi
<StevenK> Hobbsee: Where on the east coast?
<raphink> hi hub 
<hub> sorry, I'm late or not yet
<hub> right on time
<raphink> yep
<Hobbsee> StevenK: sydney
<raphink> hasnt' begun yet
<raphink> :)
<StevenK> Hobbsee: Ah hah - me too.
<Keybuk> note: as it's after 6pm, my net connection is erratic at best and I'm going to be getting everything in large pulses at best, disconnecting at worst
<StevenK> azeem: At the moment, -devel is coma-inducing.
<raphink> ouch :s
<StevenK> Keybuk: And your ISP considers that a feature?
<sivang> lucas: I can see JOey's thread linked from the ageanda page, is that enough?
<Keybuk> StevenK: my ISP blames the Telco who supply my ADSL line
<Keybuk> my telco say it's in their Terms & Conditions that the phone line may eventually degrade and be unable to support ADSL
<Keybuk> etc.
<raphink> sivang: that's far enough to take the risk for a warflame if we begin talking about it :(
<StevenK> Ahhh. "We're passing the buck since we have no idea."
<raphink> s/warflame/flamewar/
<Keybuk> yeah, the only solution would appear to be local-loop, and that's frakking expensive
<lucas> sivang: mdz posted a summary of the possibilities
<lucas> sivang: it's a good start
<Keybuk> upwards of 100 GBP a month
<StevenK> Whee
<raphink> 100 GBP for theconnection??
<sivang> lucas: oh, it's on the same page then - 3 possibilities
* hub discovered that he is not connected to the CO next door but 5.3km away
<Keybuk> raphink: yup
<raphink> Keybuk: ouch
<StevenK> Our work connection is ~ 200GBP per month
<hub> StevenK: office != home
<StevenK> Mmmmmm, 2Mbit SHDSL.
<StevenK> Well, yeah. :-)
<raphink> Keybuk: in France pay 30 for 20Mbps ADSL + free phone + 100 channels on TV
<Keybuk> I pay nothing at the moment
<Keybuk> so I guess I am technically getting what I pay for ;)
<StevenK> Heh
<mdz> good morning
<hub> raphink: I paid nothing when I had them
<ajmitch> morning mdz 
<raphink> hi mdz 
<sivang> morning mdz 
<raphink> hub: you mean Free ?
<hub> raphink: glitch in the systeme
<lucas> sivang: it doesn't seem to be on ubuntu-motu
* StevenK pays $55AUD for 1.5Mbit
<hub> raphink: yeah
* StevenK waves to mdz.
<mdz> I'm assuming that sabdfl isn't going to be able to make it due to travelling
<raphink> hub: :D :D
<hub> hey mdz
<elmo> mdz: safe bet
<sivang> that wouldn't be a first timer  :)
<raphink> hi elmo 
<hub> hey elmo
<Keybuk> raphink: I have ADSL now ... and that's what's not working
<ajmitch> where is sabdfl travelling to this week?
<raphink> Keybuk: ic
<mdz> looks like we have a full agenda
<Keybuk> raphink: I need to get something other than ADSL to have a reliable net connection
<raphink> ajmitch: the moon?
<ogra> ajmitch, asia tour ? 
<sivang> ajmitch: asia somewhere I think
<ajmitch> right
<Keybuk> mdz: does sabdfl ever make it even when he's not travelling? :)
<hub> Keybuk: cable?
<mdz> Keybuk: sometimes, yes
<sivang> Keybuk: lol :) there were a couple of times IIRC
<mdz> so let's get started
<mjg59> Ok
<raphink> ok
<Keybuk> hub: no cable in my area, annoyingly
<mjg59> What order are we doing things in today, then?
<hub> Keybuk: :-/
<mdz> I figure the order on the wiki is as good as any
<Keybuk> hub: the alternative is for an ISP to actually takeover the line from the exchange to my house and repair it ... BT won't do it
<sivang> pitti's sudo stuff first
<mjg59> Cool. Core candidates.
<mdz> it looks like there are a few people who have proposed themselves for ubuntu-core-dev who haven't otherwise appeared in the community
<mjg59> dsaa isn't here, anyone know anything about the other two?
<ajmitch> no core candidates who are motus already afaict
<raphink> mjg59: I'd say at least one core candidate...
<mdz> dholbach: are you around?
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> I will mail them.
<mdz> dholbach: at a previous meeting, you helped us with contacting these folks and explaining
<mdz> dholbach: could you make that a todo item for the monday before each TB meeting?
<dholbach> Ok.
<mdz> thanks
<Keybuk> what are/should we do about the backlog of existing ones?
<Keybuk> didn't we talk about removing people if they failed to come to meetings/
<mdz> dholbach is going to mail them, and then we'll remove them
<mdz> we agreed that folks should apply for MOTU before core
<Keybuk> hmm, we could do with a "notes" field for each person
<hub> btw, a quick note. I'm at the office now, I hope that nothing preempt my sitting at this keyboard for the meeting
<Keybuk> yeah
<mjg59> Right. developer candidates?
<raphink> yep 
* lucas is, too
* hub is applying for motu too
<raphink> :)
* StevenK three
<raphink> 3 french people at least :)
<mjg59> sivang, hub, lucas, raphink, vuntz, StevenK, anyone else?
<mdz> mjg59: were any candidates processed at the meeting I missed?
<raphink> StevenK: that's four :)
<mdz> I'm not sure which of those in the queue are new and which are stale
<StevenK> I added myself two days ago or so.
<mjg59> mdz: I think we deferred a couple, it was a while ago now
<hub> raphink: I consider myself Canuck now
<lucas> I saw in the last TB meeting's log that vuntz said he didn't have enough time to join the team, and he asked to be removed from the list. did he change his mind ?
<raphink> hub: oh ok ;)
<dholbach> lucas: I think not.
<raphink> hub: you're still french-speaking though
<sivang> I'm stale , I need to do more MOTU contribs before this can be evaluted again.
<mdz> mjg59: so that was what, 2005-12-20?
<mjg59> mdz: Yup
<Keybuk> mjg59: we definitely processed some at the last TB meeting
<dholbach> sivang and vuntz can be safely removed.
<mdz> that gives us:
<mdz>  jjmmma  	 Lucas Nussbaum  	 Kiew  	 Dino Solon A. Agcambot  	 Hubert Figuiere  	 Raphal Pinson  	 Manu Cornet  	 freeflying  	 Steve Kowalik  
<sivang> dholbach: thanks
<mdz> hub, lucas, StevenK are here
<mdz> anyone else?
<raphink> mdz: i'm here too
<lucas> raphink is Raphal Pinson
<mdz> ok
<raphink> ty lucas 
<mdz> looks like lucas is up first
<lucas> ok
<mdz> lucas: care to tell us a bit about yourself and what you've been up to?
<lucas> I've prepared a wiki page to summarize my candidacy. It's probably faster. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucasNussbaum/TBCandidacy if you want
<Keybuk> ooh, shiny
<lucas> 24 years old, french, phd student in CS
<mdz> I've noticed you've done quite a bit of wiki content
<hub> I don't have a summary for my candidacy
<lucas> I've been working on MOTU-related stuff and debian collaboration stuff
<lucas> (like working with raphael hertzog to start flamewars :/)
<raphink> hub: me neither ;)
<raphink> lucas: hehe
<mdz> heh
* StevenK only has his wiki page.
<raphink> StevenK: you're not the only one so that's fine ;)
* ogra likes the hot discussions he has with lucas in -motu :)
<mjg59> lucas: So what Ruby stuff have you actually been doing so far?
<ogra> and lucas is definately very encouraged and around a lot all day ...
<lucas> in Ubuntu, just a few merges that were needed
<mjg59> Is stuff being significantly altered inside Ubuntu, or is it mainly helping to merge stuff from Debian?
<lucas> in Debian, packaging of stuff I'm upstream for (feed2imap, libfeedparser-ruby, libxmpp4r-ruby)
<lucas> merging stuff only
<mjg59> Ok, cool
<mdz> lucas: which parts of MultiDistroTools are your work?
<lucas> mdz: everything
<raphink> lucas also provided a nice web interface to work with merges more easily lately
<mdz> nice work
<lucas> mjg59: since I have 'contacts' with debian ruby maintainers, it's easier to keep the divergence low
<raphink> http://revu.tauware.de/~lucas/versions/ very useful :)
<mdz> lucas: you note on your wiki page that you aren't sure you'll be able to contribute in the long term.  do you care to elaborate?
<lucas> I'm sure I'll be able to contribute on the long term.
<lucas> what I'm not sure of, is whether I'll be able to do general MOTU work on the long term (merge/syncs)
<lucas> however, I hope to be able to help when the backlog is quite big, for example
<Keybuk> is this because of an expected lack of time, or other reasons?
<lucas> yeah, lack of time, as always
<mdz> lucas: I see that you're in the Debian NM queue
<lucas> working more on Ubuntu means working less on other projects or my thesis ;)
<Keybuk> but you believe you have time now?
<lucas> yeah, I have
<mdz> lucas: how does your intention to join Debian fit into your strategy for improving collaboration between the projects?
<lucas> hehe a timeline is needed here
<lucas> beginning of the summer: I start packaging stuff inside pkg-ruby-extras debian team
<lucas> then, I get on NM, since you better start early
<lucas> then I discovered the bad state of ruby in breezy (that was in september)
<lucas> so I got involved into MOTU
<lucas> I've been using Ubuntu since no-name-yet.com, but when everything looks fine, you don't feel the need to get involved
<lucas> (that's all)
<lucas> ;)
<mdz> thanks
<lucas> I don't think I'll be a DD soon, become of the average time you usually spend in NM
<mdz> would anyone like to say anything further about lucas' involvement with MOTU so far?
<sistpoty> as orgra already pointed out, lucas has been very encouraged on motu-issues
<lucas> being a DD probably help with debian collaboration, but it's mainly human issues currently, as I see it
<crimsun> lucas's MDT have been quite helpful, along with sistpoty's, in the Dapper merges. I use them both constantly.
<mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: I think that's sufficient discussion; agreed?
<Keybuk> agree
<sistpoty> oh, yep. he did really rocking work with it
<mjg59> mdz: Yup
<mdz> votes?
<mjg59> +1 from me
<sivang> crimsun: are they a better incarniation of the motu-tools package?
<mdz> +1
<Keybuk> +1 also
<dholbach> Welcome lucas!
<lucas> :-) thank you all.
<ogra> sivang, nope, another set of tools
<mdz> lucas: welcome
<sistpoty> welcome lucas :)
<ogra> welcome lucas
<raphink> :D
<mdz> hub: you're next
<hub> ok
<StevenK> That sounded omnious.
<mdz> StevenK: ;-)
<mdz> hub: you maintain abiword?
<sistpoty> though I haven't seen many packages from hub (didn't have time to review more), what I've seen was very clear and good packaging
<Keybuk> hub was at UBZ, iirc.
<ogra> mdz, he's upstream :)
<hub> mdz: as upstream, I'm one of the maintainers, yes
<mdz> Keybuk: yes
<Keybuk> came to several of my BOFs
<dholbach> I'm very happy with hub's contributions. He worked on a bunch of photo tools and libraries, he works well with upstream, his packaging improved over the weeks, and I'd personally be very happy to have him on board.
<hub> Keybuk: I was
<ajmitch> he even hosted a drinking BOF there
<ogra> at home :)
<hub> ajmitch: and pizza BOF
<dholbach> Yeah  :)
<mdz> hub: do you have any specific interests or plans for Ubuntu contributions that you can tell us about?
<sivang> hub: in UBZ ? :)
* ajmitch found hub's packaging to be of good quality, and he's been persistent with it
<mjg59> hub: Your Launchpad page doesn't go into too much detail - what have you been up to in Ubuntu?
<hub> mdz: currently I'm trying to focus on providing various tools for digital photography
<hub> and I have a bunch of packages still pending on REVU
<ogra> carrying over your knowledge from gnome  ? :)
<ogra> hub is the well known photo tools guy in gnome ... and i'm really happy he wants to take such tasks in ubuntu as well :)
<hub> ogra: I'm not espacially gnome centric for the tools
<mdz> hub: you organized MOTUPhoto?
<hub> mdz: I creat the team
<mjg59> hub: So, do you think it's possible to provide a "just work" atmosphere for the photography field?
<hub> created
<ogra> hub, they are not QT based :)
<hub> mjg59: that is my goal. Have the tools ready for use
<mdz> hub: what is your opinion of f-spot?
<hub> mdz: f-spot is a great user app
<hub> I installed Mono just for that reason
<hub> I'm talking regularly with lewing, the upstream developer
<mdz> what do you think is the best way to get photo functionality to Just Work in Ubuntu, as it does on the Mac platform?
<hub> mdz: enhance libgphoto2 to work even more seemlessly
<hub> and have the application use it for everything
<mdz> currently we launch gthumb when a camera is attached, but I have never been very happy about its level of functionality
<mdz> I launched it just now and it crashed during startup ;-)
<hub> hew
<hub> I'll check that
<raphink> hehe
<janimo> mdz, use a stable distro :)
<Mithrandir> my main gripe with gthumb is that it's slow and memory-hungry.
<hub> I don't really work this way
<hub> maybe I should try it harder
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: so is f-spot at times
<hub> Mithrandir: f-spot is faster IMHO
<mdz> hub: what way do you mean?
<ajmitch> reminds me, I should upload 0.1.7 now
<hub> I use a card reader, pop the card in, copy the files
<Keybuk> I'd like f-spot's "new startup and import" feature to actually infer information from my carefully constructed hierarchy of directory names
<Keybuk> right now it imports my thousands of photos and gives me that "now you have to tag them" look
<mdz> hub: yes, that's what I do as well.  however, I'd like to make things work well for a broader class of users
<ogra> Keybuk, you can switch to directory view
<Mithrandir> ajmitch: I don't want photo apps to "manage my collection", I want to look at pics.
<Keybuk> ogra: that kinda defeats the point though, especailly if you now import new things with f-spot and tag them
<ajmitch> quickly getting OT :)
<mdz> we needn't get into too much detail right now, though
<mdz> ajmitch: ;-)
<mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: satisfied with the amount of discussion?
<hub> mdz: I must admit that it is the best user case to have a program the ask about importing the pictures form the camera when you connect it
<pitti> hub: that's what shuold happen ATM
<Keybuk> yup, I'm good
<mdz> pitti: it does, but gthumb has some issues
<hub> I had plans to write a "gnome-photo-importer"
<mjg59> mdz: Yup
<pitti> hub: g-v-m asks about importing and calls gthumb if the user wnats
<mdz> ok, votes?
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<hub> to copy  the picture automatically
<mdz> +1
<mjg59> +1
<mdz> hub: congratulations
<ajmitch> welcome, hub :)
<raphink> :)
<hub> pitti: yeah, but mdz just said it was crashing
* pitti welcomes hub
<hub> mdz: thanks
<ogra> hub, http://www.grawert.net/software/pimp/
<mdz> hub: and now I have to go and file a proper bug report after the meeting ;-)
<ogra> hub, could need a python rewrite ;)
<Keybuk> mdz: good luck!
<ogra> hub, and welcome
<hub> ogra: eh
<mdz> raphink: you're up
<raphink> OK I have prepared a 4 paragraphs intro to paste ;)
<hub> ogra: I'd rewrite it in C++ :-/
<raphink> I got involved in MOTU things mostly by packaging new stuff for Ubuntu (mostly KDE packages) in october. My work in Ubuntu is documented on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson . I haven't really had the time to change the motivation part that I put before being a member, but it sums up why I want to be a MOTU, too.
<dholbach> Excellent, hub!
<raphink> After packaging for some time and putting my packages on REVU, I noticed the queue was pretty slow on REVU, and wanted to help a bit. So I reviewed some packages myself and sent the comments to the packagers, forwarding them to some MOTUs. After I did that with a few packages, I was given review rights on REVU and have been using it so far to review more directly on the website. 
<ogra> hub, fine as well 
<raphink> I have also contributed to syncing/merging packages, although not as much as packaging/reviewing.
<raphink> Finally, I have been working on the MOTU related documentation on the wiki, mostly on the REVU page, on the packaging and reviewing tips, and more recently on creating a Debian contribution page together with lucas.
<mdz> raphink: that's great, it seems like REVU always needs more reviewers
<raphink> I do my best :)
<lucas> (url: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian )
<raphink> ty lucas 
<mdz> Riddell: any feedback on raphink's involvement with KDE/Kubuntu?
<ajmitch> yes, us existing MOTUs don't do enough reviewing to keep up
<raphink> mdz: now it would help even more if I could advocate and upload packages too
<sistpoty> raphink did some very nice kde packages, and his reviews are of good quality
<mjg59> raphink: What sort of packages do you plan on uploading?
<raphink> mjg59: I mean being able to upload the advocated packages from REVU
<raphink> right now i can only criticize the packages on REVU
<mjg59> raphink: Ok, cool
<raphink> put comments and so on
<raphink> but when I feel they're ready 
<mjg59> Any plans for independent packaging?
<raphink> i can't do more than just telling the guy to ask a MOTu gently
<raphink> mjg59: I have 8 packages in Dapper already
<mjg59> Excellent
<raphink> I also have my own project on alioth
<raphink> which is called Ichthux
<raphink> it's a CDD aimed to christians
<raphink> when i began it I didn't know much about Debian systems yet
<raphink> so it's a bit stalled right now
<raphink> but I plan to improve it and get the packages in Debian and Ubuntu in the future maybe
<raphink> just as Debian Jr. or Debian Med
<ogra> or edubuntu, xubuntu ;)
<raphink> yep exactly ;)
<mdz> raphink: are you a Debian developer or in the NM queue?
<raphink> no i'm not
<raphink> I considered it a few months ago
<raphink> and didn't do it at the time
<raphink> and then got involved in Ubuntu 
<raphink> I haven't considered applying for DD seriously any recently
<raphink> and I still need to get my packages in Debian
<mdz> well, becoming a DD would be the ideal way to get your packages into debian, of course ;-)
<raphink> thankfully I know some DDs who can sponsor my work, within Ichthux
<mdz> oh, good
<raphink> yes mdz I know that :)
<raphink> this is future plans :)
<raphink> right now I have to have Ichthux administrated by a DD on alioth
<raphink> since they wouldn't let a non-DD rule it
<raphink> SynrG has been my mentor even since april actually
<raphink> and now co-administrates Ichthux on alioth withme
<raphink> :)
<raphink> (yes I can witness there are very nice DDs around that like Ubuntu even if not involved in it :))
<sivang> raphink: Ben is very nice indeed :)
<raphink> sivang: :)
<mdz> dholbach,ogra: anything to say?
<ogra> raphink, is very busy in the motu world and around every day since some weeks ... 
<ogra> err, months ?
<dholbach> mdz: I was very happy, when he jumped into REVUing and looking at his packages made me happy too.
<raphink> ogra: time goes by :)
<lucas> I've been working with raphink on some merges/syncs and some documentation. He has really been hyperactive those last weeks. I really enjoy working with him. His work has always been of high quality.
<ogra> in any case he's a good teamworker 
<dholbach> And he helped actively to respond to questions in the channel.
<ogra> ...and would be very valuable for motu 
<mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: ready?
<mjg59> Yup
<mdz> votes
<mjg59> +1 form me
<Keybuk> yup
<mdz> +1 here
<dholbach> raphink: welcome to the team!
<raphink> :D
<raphink> ty :)
<ogra> congrats raphink 
<mdz> raphink: welcome aboard
* dholbach hugs raphink, lucas, hub
<sistpoty> raphink: congrats
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<ajmitch> well done, welcome
<raphink> thanks ogra && sistpoty :)
<raphink> :) :)
<mdz> StevenK: ready?
<StevenK> Yup.
<StevenK> Well, as much as I can be.
* raphink is proud to be in a nice team as the MOTU one :)
<mdz> I'm familiar with your work in Debian, thanks for that
* StevenK squints from mdz's spotlight.
* hub hugs dholbach 
<mdz> and I see you've done some uploads to Ubuntu recently; who has sponsored those for you?
* ajmitch has done some
<StevenK> Multiple MOTUs, notably Mithrandir, ajmitch and \sh.
* crimsun has as well
<StevenK> crimsun: Oh, I didn't see you there.
* sistpoty also sponsored some
<StevenK> See, many?
<ogra> :)
<ajmitch> from what I can tell, he certainly knows what he's doing :)
<sistpoty> I can't really say anything about his skillz... I'd need higher skills myself to rate StevenK's ;
<sistpoty> +)
<mdz> StevenK: given your background you're obviously familiar with packaging practices ;-)
<StevenK> Hell, I wrote a package checker.
<StevenK> :-)
<mdz> right
<Mithrandir> SK++
<StevenK> Er, am writing one.
<Keybuk> StevenK: yes, could you not do that again :)
* StevenK grins.
<mdz> StevenK: how did you become interested in contributing to Ubuntu directly?
<sivang> lol, but she has a nice name :)
<Mithrandir> fwiw, I've been happy with what I've seen from SK, both technically; he knows his ropes well as well as socially, helping other people in -motu.
<ogra> ++
<dholbach> Apart from that, I was amazed by how fast and well he integrated into the team and worked with the processes we have and helped others to get into the MOTU world as well.
<ogra> (especially for the last part ++)
<StevenK> mdz: I've been curious about Ubuntu since Hoary or so, and a few months ago (I think), I tried a live CD, and was impressed. I started hanging out in -motu and helping out. A week later I installed Breezy and dealt with the culture shock from moving from unstable to well, stable.
<ogra> lol
<Mithrandir> StevenK: you should try the new live cd.  Much faster and shinier.
<ajmitch> and you couldn't bear not dist-upgrading, so you went to dapper?
<mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: we're running a bit long already; any questions you'd like to ask StevenK?
<StevenK> That's actually on my TODO list.
<ogra> if you dont use ppc :P
<pitti> StevenK: just install dapper to get the nice cozy feeling of brokenness again :)
<Keybuk> StevenK: how will you balance working on Debian and for Ubuntu
<Keybuk> s/for/on/
<sivang> pitti: not too much though :)
<StevenK> Keybuk: Ignore Debian and work on Ubuntu? Seems to be working for now.
<StevenK> In all seriousness, most of my packages in Debian take care of themselves.
<ogra> wow, how did you manage that ? 
<raphink> pitti: hehe
<StevenK> Either I'm upstream, or the upstream release very slowly.
* ogra glares at the pieces of xscreensaver in front of him and envys StevenK 
<mdz> StevenK: so you're interested in working on a different set of packages in Ubuntu, then?  any particular area of focus that interests you?
<StevenK> Not any particular area. I'll fight for interesting packages to merge/sync, but I'll work on anything.
<StevenK> It's just packaging, and packaging is fun.
<raphink> :)
<mdz> ok, any further discussion?
<Keybuk> so, out of interest, why would you want to do this work for Ubuntu and not for Debian?
<mjg59> I don't think I've got any relevant questions
<StevenK> Mainly because the work ethic in Ubuntu is much nicer.
<ogra> :)
<StevenK> I've become a little upset by Debian recently.
<mdz> it's easier in a small organization
<StevenK> Reading -{private,devel,project} has become a chore.
<mdz> we'll have to face many of Debian's problems as time goes on, I expect
<mdz> hopefully with the benefit of Debian's experience, but face them nonetheless
<ajmitch> the MOTU team will inevitably run into scalability issues
<StevenK> ajmitch: I thought we had already? :-)
<ajmitch> StevenK: we have the problem of too few still
<ajmitch> once we get too many, other issues show up :)
<mdz> ok, need to move on to the discussion topics on the agenda
<mdz> votes?
<Keybuk> ++
<mdz> +1 from me based on Debian history, recent uploads and feedback from MOTU
<mjg59> +1
<dholbach> Welcome to the team StevenK!
<mjg59> Cool
<StevenK> Thanks!
<mdz> StevenK: congrats
<pitti> StevenK: welcome
<ogra> yay, welcome StevenK !
<mdz> pitti: still awake?
<mjg59> pitti: Sudo help? Could you outline what that actually involves?
<pitti> mdz: barely :)
<pitti> yes
<pitti> The problem: we want to make it easier for first-time Ubuntu users to find out about the root whereabouts, since it's a FAQ.
<pitti> currently proposed idea: sudo writes a stamp (~/.sudo_admin_successful, or whatever) if the user ran sudo successfully, and a snippet in /etc/profile gives a short help message ('Use "sudo <command>" to execute a command as root') as long as the stamp file does not exist.
<pitti> (NB that this was not *my* proposal)
<sistpoty> congrats StevenK :)
<pitti> some people (Mithrandir, fabbione) did not really like this approach, both principally, and technically
<mdz> this was sabdfl's proposal, which he discussed with me
<pitti> I propose to discuss the general approach first before we come down to the implementation; Mithrandir, what would you propose instead?
<Keybuk> hmm, to me, if a user opens a Terminal and doesn't know how to become root -- or where to look in order to know, they probably shouldn't be trying to be root
<mdz> the goal of this approach is to inform the user about sudo as soon as we know that they are a command-line user
<mjg59> This could presumably be compared to how BSDs used to have "Don't login as root, use su"?
<mdz> Keybuk: the target audience are the folks who are used to other distributions
<mdz> but not sudo
<pitti> but many users already know what a 'root' user is and what it is for, and they seem to miss it in Ubuntu
<pitti> so we need to nudge them itno the right direction
<Mithrandir> pitti: write a pam module to echo out "you need to use sudo" if they call su -
<Keybuk> if we _really_ must have something like it, I'd suggest bringing back the "Root Terminal" menu item
<mdz> mjg59: yes, but don't they display that in motd or something?
<Keybuk> maybe shoving it under System->Administration
<pitti> Mithrandir: that was my original idea, too
<mjg59> mdz: Only if you logged in as root
<mdz> this would be less disruptiev in that it would go away once they've used sudo
<sivang> maybe this could be made so that only users who are allowed to sudo see it?
<mdz> mjg59: ah
<mdz> sivang: yes, that was part of the proposal
<sivang> opos, sorry :-/
<Mithrandir> pitti: of course, only if root was disabled.  If root's enabled, it should be quiet.
<mdz> Keybuk: the trouble is that users are accustomed to opening a terminal and using su
<pitti> Mithrandir: sure
<mjg59> Perhaps it would be more sensible to have *su* print it?
<pitti> I don't really like the 'root terminal' approach
<pitti> it might tempt people to use it for more tasks than necessary
<Mithrandir> mjg59: implementation detail, really, but sure.
<mdz> mjg59: that was my first answer to sabdfl, but feedback from the community has shown that users get confused before that point
<mdz> they suddenly realize that they don't know the root password, so su is hopeless
<Mithrandir> the only problem I see with my approach is that people won't even try su - if they haven't punched in a root password.
<mjg59> mdz: Ah
<sivang> given that, the proposal doesn't look all that bad to me. If I cannot sudo - the I won't see it. if I can, then I should know the implications already.
<pitti> maybe we should add the su check if root is disabled nevertheless? It doesn't interfere with the sudo help
<mdz> pitti: sure, it's orthogonal
<raphink> just jumping it, but can't people be better informed on `sudo -i' ? if they want a su feeling?
<raphink> s/it/in/
<mjg59> raphink: It's more that they don't know they have to use sudo
<pitti> yes, I forgot that part - that only affects members of admin
<raphink> mjg59: I get the point
<raphink> and it would be really dirty to link su to sudo -i ;)
<mdz> raphink: we can fine-tune the text of the message as necessary; I think the open issue is whether the approach is correct
<Mithrandir> a problem with the flag file is "what happens once the user has used sudo once, then doesn't remember?"
<pitti> raphink: and wrong
<mjg59> I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to forcibly instruct people, but I'm not sure uglifying every shell is the best plan
<raphink> mdz: yes 
<raphink> pitti: totally wrong ;)
<mdz> Mithrandir: we can lead them to the documentation, but we cannot make them drink
<mjg59> Also, there's no reliable way for it to know if the user can run sudo
<mdz> mjg59: for all new installations, the admin group serves that purpose
<pitti> mjg59: no, we only want admin members
<Mithrandir> mdz: the message magically goes away after they've run the command once.  There's no (visible) way for them to get it back.
<pitti> mjg59: we specifically don't want messages for restricted sudo access (you still remember the information disclosure discussion? :) )
<raphink> mjg59: all the more that sudo can be used for only some tasks
<Mithrandir> mdz: it's really a horrible thing to do, UI-wise..
<mdz> Mithrandir: not only after they've run it, after they've run it successfully
<raphink> mjg59: so that even a user who can use sudo might not be able to use it for all things
<mjg59> mdz: I worry about the case where an admin knows enough to fix sudo (say they have a local admin group that's used for other purposes), but don't know where this message is coming from
<pitti> Mithrandir: to be concrete, if the sudo command and authentication was ran successfully (not if the runned command was successful)
<mdz> mjg59: /etc/profile is a pretty reasonable place to look
<sivang> mjg59: we can state where this msg is coming from somewhere else, and note that in the help msg itslef
<Mithrandir> pitti: sure, but it's still horrible from a UI POV.
<mjg59> mdz: I think that whichever way we go, people will be unhappy about some aspect of it
<mdz> mjg59: agreed
<pitti> Mithrandir: well, there isn't much UI, what do you mean in particluar?
<mjg59> How does MacOS deal with this?
<mdz> but I think we can do better than we currently do
<mjg59> (I'm guessing that they just don't)
<mdz> mjg59: they ignore it, I think
<pitti> mjg59: they don't
<sivang> Mithrandir: horrible, but effective to close this pit in which I personally saw many users fall into
<mdz> because their users don't expect to be able to use root
<pitti> mjg59: the  first time I saw macos, I didn't know how to become an admin
<mjg59> What other things can also be done?
<mdz> we're in a different boat because we get a lot of users who have enough experience with linux to be confused by the difference in our configuration
<Mithrandir> pitti: You have a message which appears each time you open a terminal.  You run sudo ls.  The message goes away.
<mjg59> What does the installer currently say during password configuration?
<sistpoty> do I recall correctly, that there is a root-terminal icon somewhere in the default gnome install? maybe use that to trigger some help?
<mdz> mjg59: it doesn't matter, nobody reads the text ;-)
<pitti> Mithrandir: maybe we should just add it to /etc/skel/.bashrc and have the user remove it themselves if they want?
<janim1> people may get preinstalled boxes
<pitti> mdz: ^
<ogra> Mithrandir, but you filter a good bunch of support requests from the users which have read the message
<mdz> Mithrandir: what do you propose? something like what pitti says?
<mdz> "edit ~/.profile / /etc/profile / whatever if you don't want to see this message anymore"?
<sivang> maybe we can use a dsktop notification instead of a terminal msg?
<pitti> then existing users won't see it of course
<Mithrandir> mdz: I would like a pam module or have it not go away automatically, yes.
<mdz> sivang: to what purpose?
<Mithrandir> pitti: existing users probably know about sudo. :-P
<ogra> shinyness :)
<ogra> sivang, that wont help you on a console
<sivang> err, right
<pitti> Mithrandir: right, that's why I think that this is not a real flaw of the /etc/skel/.bashrc approach
<sivang> ogra: forgot we're not laways ona  console
<sivang> s/console/X/
<ogra> heh
<Kamion> mdz: the text in the installer *should* be improved, mind you; and probably will once we get all the sudo stuff integrated upstream
<Kamion> at the moment the installer doesn't really tell you anything much
<sivang> true
<Kamion> pitti: /etc/skel/.bashrc applies to everyone, not just admin users
<Kamion> would be pretty annoying on boxes with non-trivial numbers of users
<pitti> Kamion: sure, but you can enclose it in an if..then
<pitti> i. e. check if he's an admin member
<mdz> my opinion is that sabdfl's proposal is simple to try out, unsurprising for experienced users, and helpful to intermediate users
<pitti> non-admins shouldn't ever see it anyway
<mdz> whether it will be annoying for too many users, that's difficult to say
<mdz> it might even annoy me, but we won't really know until we try something
<mjg59> Ok. How about we agree to do it for preview and then potentially reconsider after that?
<sivang> we probably need to trail and error, that's all.
<mdz> Keybuk has notified me that his network connection is gone
<mdz> mjg59: that's reasonable for me
<pitti> can we have a voting about automatically removing the note or not?
<mdz> sure, if you like
<pitti> if not, then we don't need to change sudo
<mjg59> I'm in favour of automatically removing the note. 
<mdz> I'm in favor of automatically removing the note, rather than forcing users to explicitly remove it
<mjg59> Ok. So we'll implement for preview, with automatic removal, and see what sort of response we get?
<mdz> that's fine with me
<mdz> we know what sabdfl would say. ;-)  DO IT
<mjg59> Cool. Popcon?
<sivang> heh
<mdz> popcon
<lucas> yeak
<lucas> yeah
<lucas> 1 min
<pitti> ok, grat
<lucas>  Status of popcon.u.c (LucasNussbaum, also see [WWW]  thread on u-devel@): popcon.u.c hasn't been updated since June 2005. While it's mostly useless for main packages (all users have the default set of packages installed), it is very useful for universe to determine wich packages should get the more attention.
<pitti> great
<mdz> it's broken and ought to be fixed.  is there any policy decision to be made here?
<lucas> Could popcon be fixed ? By whom ? How could we ask our users to enable it (u-d-a@ email, blog entries) ? (it is disabled by default for obvious privacy reasons)
<mjg59> mdz: Default enabling mechanism
<mdz> we could add a checkbox to espresso
<ogra> having a gui to enable it would be rad to make users aware of it ...
<Kamion> thom used to run popcon (by virtue of being sysadmin as well), but no longer does
<Kamion> I don't think anyone's paid any attention to it at all since he left
<mjg59> Is espresso going to have a "Put your email address here if you want to receive updates about new versions of Ubuntu" type thing?
<mdz> elmo: what kind of privileges are necessary to run popcon?  is it something the sysadmin team needs to do, or can it be handed off to a mere mortal?
<mdz> mjg59: not planned currently
<mjg59> If so, it would make sense to add something with a privacy policy there
<elmo> mdz: it can and should be handed off
<lucas> I'd volunteer to take care of it, but it's probably a 'privilege' limited to employees ?
<Kamion> lucas: shell access to machines in general is, yeah
<mdz> elmo: I assume it requires shell access somewhere or other?
<elmo> mdz: yes
<elmo> it can't be community maintained, sorry
<ogra> didnt we have external vservers for community stuff 
<elmo> is there really no one on the distro team who can fix it?
<elmo> I don't beleive it requires much in the way of maintenance
<mdz> elmo: yes, it's just a matter of appointing someone
<Mithrandir> can it be cronned?
<ogra> i'd take it ... but i'm not sure how time consuming it is
<mdz> is anyone who already has shell privileges familiar with popcon?
<Mithrandir> I've read the scripts, but I wouldn't consider myself familiar.
<Kamion> I've touched it, but am kind of busy
<ogra> i only inspected the client side when i worked on hwdb
<mdz> I expect that once it's fixed, it'll run quietly without intervention for a long time
<mdz> Mithrandir: would you have a look and get it going again?
<Mithrandir> mdz: sure, I could do that.
<mdz> wonderful, thanks
<mdz> lucas: any outstanding issues then?
<Mithrandir> I'd need access to the box, but I'm sure that'll be arranged.
<Mithrandir> (I'll file an RT ticket)
<mdz> Mithrandir: yep
<mdz> there's a question about advertising it more
<mdz> I don't mind if someone sends an email to -announce inviting users to participate
<lucas> mdz: no
<mdz> ok, let's move on then
<mdz> is jani here regarding Xubuntu?
<janim1> here
<dholbach> I can do that, once Mithrandir has fixed it.
<mdz> dholbach: ok
* dholbach hugs Mithrandir
<janim1> shall I start?
<mjg59> janim1: Sure
<mdz> janim1: please
<janim1> ok so I'd like if possible to have the same status for xfce packages
<janim1> as for kde and gnome
<janim1> excempt from UVF
<mdz> janim1: KDE isn't exactly exempt, though it does sometimes get exceptions
<janim1> I am taking care of them and debian is doing the same
<tseng> janim1: "exempt" is a bit of a strech
<mdz> janim1: the reason why gnome is treated specially is because our releases are synchronized
<janim1> it was for breezy wasn;t?
<tseng> janim1: gnome has a strict schedule
<mdz> janim1: so we can be confident that they're stabilizing when we need them to be stabilizing
<mdz> janim1: does xfce have a time-based release schedule?
<janim1> no
<janim1> they plan a stable release in Feb though
<mdz> if not, then we need to consider it on a case-by-case basis
<Keybuk> ok, I _think_ I'm back again (I hope)
<pitti> Keybuk: yes, you are :)
<Riddell> janim1: I have to ask for any excemptions for KDE uploads after UVF, it has to be shown that they are bug fix only releases and won't break anything
<janim1> ok, then I don;t want blanket permissions
<mdz> Keybuk: while you were gone, we decided to rename the project to Schmoobuntu, and to have prospective developers paint their faces blue
<janim1> just not too much hassle :)
<Keybuk> I'm inclined to agree with mdz here, if XFCE doesn't follow our release cycle, we should consider it individually each time
<mdz> janim1: I'm perfectly willing to consider exceptions for XFCE
<Keybuk> mdz: what about existing developers?
<janim1> thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: orange
<Keybuk> ah, the bad-fake-tan look :)
<mdz> janim1: it will help a lot if upstream provides good changelogs and distinguishes between feature branches and bugfix-only branches
<dholbach> Oh great! That's more like the hippie feeling I expected! :)
<janim1> so yes I was only talking about dapper and this upcoming xfce not in general as it is with gnome
<tseng> on a similar note, I am hoping to track mono and gtk# past UVF
<mdz> janim1: since we won't be able to spend time auditing their code to see what kinds of changes we're dealing with
<janim1> mdz, yes they are working on a branch which becomes a release shortly
<tseng> they both have bugfix-only branches open, as NLD time schedule is pretty close to dapper atm
<tseng> and fixes will be backported for the next few months.
<janim1> mdz, I am willing to put in all the time needed for the dozen or so packages
<janim1> and they have _no_ security record so far :)
<pitti> janim1: or rather, a good one :)
<janim1> ok :)
<mdz> janim1: it might help if you communicated with upstream that we are very disciplined about our release cycle and would like to cooperate with them to ensure that the right changes get into Ubuntu, but need to be conservative in what we accept as releases approach
<pitti> mdz: FYI, I ack'ed all the xfce packages for main yesterday
<dholbach> Wow.
<janim1> mdz, already contacted them in December and keep pestering and controibuting
<ogra> in a row
<janim1> did the same with debian-xfce
<mdz> ok, so there is also the question of promoting XFCE to main\
<janim1> pitti, thanks btw, there's still thunar orage and exo
<janim1> :)
<pitti> janim1: oh, ok, will do them tomorrow
<pitti> janim1: they didn't sound xfce'ish
<janim1> yeah
<ogra> exo has an X in the middle :)
<pitti> mdz: however, before we actually promote them, we should find a solution for langpacks
<mdz> as with any other packages, if they meet our criteria and get signoffs from the right people, they're welcome in main
<mdz> pitti: are the translations very large?
<pitti> xfce has a fair number of translations, and we shuold carefully consider where to put them
<janim1> pitti, yes langpack is something we need to figure out for xfce
<pitti> i. e. put them into the main langpacks, or create xfce specific ones
<janim1> pitti, I am willing to do the packaging whatevere is required with your guidance
<pitti> janim1: do you happen to know how big a well translated language is for xfce?
<mdz> pitti: I'm happy to leave that to your discretion based on how large they turn out to be
<janim1> pitti, no idea
<pitti> janim1: nevermind, langpacks are created automaticlaly
<pitti> mdz: ok, I'll figure it out with jani
<mdz> ok
<mdz> the final xfce issue is CD builds
<janim1> yes
<ogra> pitti, do separate ones, else you 'll loose the advantage of xfce's smallness
<janim1> this is a Kamion thing I suppose
<mdz> this is a tricky issue, because there is a tradeoff between bottlenecks on busy people, and security
<janim1> whether the machines can handle the load
<Kamion> to some extent; other people can kick off builds, but nobody else knows the relevant bits of the code as well
<mdz> it would be simplest for Kamion to do it, but he has a lot on his plate
<pitti> ogra: no, you will want the general langpacks for xfce, too
<pitti> ogra: just not the gnome and kde ones, but you don't need to install them
<ogra> pitti, yup
<Kamion> I will need to do seed admin, but somebody else could probably manage the necessary code changes by clone-and-hack, and I can review them
<janim1> I am again willing to do the work if it's ok security-wise
<Kamion> the load issues are better now than they were last time we talked
<janim1> great
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'd be ok with helping Kamion out wrt cd builds, since I'm fairly involved in at least the live part already.
<janim1> so good it could build daily images?
<ogra> me too 
<Kamion> janim1: basically the only issue now is disk space, but I can probably squeeze you in
<ogra> at least i'd like to be able to kick off my edubuntu builds myself
<mdz> Mithrandir: I'm happy for you to have access to little for that purpose
<janim1> Kamion, thanks
<pitti> janim1: I look forward to trying an xfce live cd :)
<janim1> pitti, me too honestly :)
<sivang> janim1: me too :)
<Kamion> other people with cdimage access are mdz, infinity, Riddell
<mdz> ogra: likewise
<ogra> thanks :)
<Kamion> live CD work requires help from lamont or infinity
<mdz> I think there are a lot fewer gotchas now than there used to be
<mdz> as far as triggering CD builds
<mdz> Kamion: any concerns there?
<Mithrandir> can we get remote triggering of the live fs builds??
<Kamion> mdz: nope; I need to brief each person on a few things they need to do first and need to know, that's all
<Mithrandir> s/.$//
<Kamion> Mithrandir: I have it ...
<mdz> as do I
<Kamion> it's just an ssh key thing, if lamont/infinity trust you
<mdz> it's just a matter of adding new keys if more people need it
<Mithrandir> mdz: ok.
<Kamion> Mithrandir should clearly have that for casper development, IMO
<mdz> definitely
<Kamion> how do we want to manage xfce seeds?
<mdz> Mithrandir: I'll mail lamont/infinity and ask them to take care of that
<Mithrandir> I'm usually fine, since infinity is up far too late for his own health, but it would be nice not to rely on somebody 10 time zones away.
<mdz> how are xfce seeds being managed so far?
<elmo> err
<janim1> Kamion, as you wish
<janim1> I keep them on localhost :)
<Kamion> janim1: in revision control?
<janim1> but will move them public when needed
<janim1> bzr branch of ubuntu-seeds
<mdz> janim1: oh, good
<Kamion> ok, if you could make those public, we can publish them on chinstrap
<mdz> janim1: please do mirror your bzr branch publicly
<janim1> Kamion, ok will let you know tomorrow
<Kamion> however we will need to be able to change them; I (and others) relatively often make changes which need to be applied quickly to all derivatives
<janim1> then should we keep them under ~cjwatson ?
<Kamion> so maybe we can come up with some PQM arrangement or something, or just merge requests if we can guarantee low latency
<Kamion> they certainly have to be mirrored under ~cjwatson/seeds/ for everything to work (bus problem? moi?) but that can just be a mirror
<Kamion> if you're happy for me to ping you from time to time with urgent merges, that's fine
<janim1> Kamion, I am fine with that
<Kamion> ok
<mdz> Kamion: you *so* did not just suggest PQM
<ogra> heh
<Kamion> mdz: pretend that my increased use of Launchpad due to Malone is a bit like drug injection
<Kamion> causes hallucinations and fun stuff like that
<sivang> lol
* Mithrandir chuckles
<mdz> janim1: bear in mind that we're doing a major infrastructure migration for the package archive next week
<ogra> yes, malone can do that
<janim1> mdz, the soyuz thing?
<mdz> janim1: so it's likely that we'll need to sort out a lot of issues there before we can do everything properly for Xubuntu
<mdz> janim1: yes
<janim1> should I wait till then?
<janim1> it's ok with me
<mdz> janim1: no, I'm just warning you that there will be delays on our side due to that
<janim1> np
<Kamion> janim1: you already have cdimage and debian-cd checkouts from my arch branches, right? if you could update those and grep through for names of other derivatives (kubuntu and edubuntu, chiefly), it should be relatively straightforward to add xubuntu too
<mdz> janim1: what time zone are you in?
<janim1> Kamion, yes I have and will do
<janim1> UTC+2
<Kamion> oh, and 'find' as well as 'grep', there are some files under debian-cd/tasks/ that need to be added
<janim1> eastern europe
<mdz> janim1: ok, that's pretty close to Mithrandir, so if he can run your CD builds for you, that should work
<siretart> mdz: major infrastructure migration next week? does this mean/include sync requests via soyuz?
<Mithrandir> mdz: are you mailing admins for ogra's and my access to little or should I?
<mdz> siretart: it's going to affect everything
<mdz> Mithrandir: please do
<mdz> Mithrandir: I've mailed about livefs triggering
<mdz> we need to move on, we're pushing 2 hours
<mdz> janim1: any urgent concerns?
<janim1> mdz, nothing urgent
<mdz> ok
<janim1> thanks
<mdz> I don't really want to discuss this next item unless joeyh is actually here to talk to us
<mdz> there's still a very active discussion happening on debian mailing lists, and we're not ready to start implementing changes on behalf of individual debian developers yet
<ogra> it was a misinterpretation of the mail imho ...
<mdz> stephan is not here, either, so I'd like to defer this item if it's OK with Keybuk/mjg59
<janim1> Kamion, btw you're keeping cd-image in arch for now instead of bzr?
<Keybuk> I agree, joeyh should come to the meeting
<pitti> janim1: the other way round
<mjg59> I'm fine with deferring this
<Kamion> janim1: I do plan to move it, but it's backed up behind a million other things to do as usual
<mdz> ok
<Keybuk> likewise \sh
<mdz> mjg59: libpam-foreground?
<Keybuk> can somebody e-mail him to let him know that?
<siretart> I will talk to him
<mdz> siretart: thanks
<siretart> mdz: what CAN we actually implement?
<siretart> mdz: there has been a suggestion that we could modify dpkg-genchanges/dpkg-buildpackage, is this really feasible?
<Kamion> madness
<mdz> siretart: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/05/msg00260.html
* ogra thinks its not a question of implementing something, we have a policy 
<siretart> I mean at binary package building time?
<Kamion> any kind of global changes in Maintainer fields require changes in the archive
<elmo> Kamion: it does?
<Kamion> siretart: no, that's daft, Maintainer could be overridden on the archive side if we were going to go that route
<mjg59> libpam-foreground needs to go in to the base installation in order to let us do privileged hal operations sanely
<elmo> Kamion: how?
<elmo> Kamion: I think that's backwards
<mdz> siretart: I outlined everything in that message, and the discussion is ongoing on debian-devel.  no need to discuss it here until there's a decision to be made
<Kamion> elmo: if we don't want to touch all packages or do MADNESS like hacking dpkg, yes
<elmo> Kamion: I think we have to hack dpkg
<Kamion> I don't see any other alternative
<mjg59> In order to do that, it needs to be in every interactive login session
<elmo> Kamion: altering just the Packages file isn't sufficent
<Kamion> elmo: I think that's horrible and bad and wrong
<mdz> mjg59: libpam-foreground is something which now exists?
<siretart> mdz: so we defer this to the next meeting. ok
<mjg59> mdz: Yes
<Kamion> it's good enough for most purposes
<Mithrandir> can we have one discussion at a time, please? :-)
<mjg59> Now, I'm not too sure whether there's any consensus on whta the best way to do that is
<Kamion> namely providing a contact for users using our package management tools to see who the maintainer is
<mdz> siretart: indefinitely, until we actually have a proposal from Debian about what they want us to do
<elmo> except package management tools like 'dpkg -I' :-P
<mjg59> We can add it to common-session, but that runs for non-interactive sessions as well
<mjg59> (this may not make any significant difference)
* Kamion cedes the floor to the other discussion
<mjg59> Actually, letting it run for non-interactive things as well results in "nobody" having permission to do things like shut down the machine
<mjg59> So that's probably not ideal
<mjg59> In order to fix this, we need to alter the semantics of conffiles in /etc/pam.d
<mdz> mjg59: the basic idea is to grant special privileges to a user who seems to be at the console?
<mjg59> mdz: When a user logs in, a file is created in /var/run/console of the form username:vt_number
<mdz> could we address the issue of non-interactive logins inside libpam-foreground itself?
<mjg59> mdz: I'm not sure if it gets that information
<mjg59> I can look into that
<mdz> it should get file descriptors
<mjg59> Ok
<mdz> since pam runs in-process (right?), I don't think it can close them
<Mithrandir> pam is in-process, yes.
<mjg59> Ok. In that case we can probably do it without altering semantics.
<mdz> yay
<Keybuk> mjg59: isn't the whole problem with "if you have console, you have more privilegs" that once you've been on the console, you can stash a setgid binary and always have those privileges?
<mjg59> Keybuk: No, because libpam-foreground doesn't grant you any privileges
<Keybuk> or is this a different approach?
<mdz> Keybuk: it doesn't grant you any group memberships
<mjg59> It creates a file - that's all
<Keybuk> creates a file?
<mdz> it just records, in a trusted location, the fact that you're on the console
<mdz> and other programs can use that information to authenticate you
<mjg59> dbus checks whether that file exists when you send a message, and optionally drops it if the user and vt don't match
<mjg59> Ok. I'm happy with that.
<mdz> cool
<mjg59> Any other business?
<Mithrandir> mjg59: I hope you're creating the file with a setuid/setgid helper?  The authentication stuff might not run as root.  (think ssh)
<ogra> mjg59, reload the agenda ...
<mdz> ogra: that is not funny
<sistpoty> mjg59: I've added another point (at the beginning of the meeting, sorry): UVF-handling for universe
<ogra> mdz, sistpoty added it ..
<mjg59> Mithrandir: No, it's created by the process. We don't want it in the case of ssh, so that's no problem
<sistpoty> ogra: maybe you could talk about that?
<mdz> sistpoty: if it's quick, please ask, otherwise we need to defer to the next meeting
<mdz> we already had a backlog and have been here for a long time
<ogra> we talked about general proxies as we had in breezy for uvf exception requests
<ogra> in our motu meeting
<ogra> the question was just to whom these proxie people should talk to
<siretart> escp. if sync requests are going to go via soyuz
<ogra> (i'm guessing Kamion and mdz as usual, but motu wants names :) )
<pitti> mjg59: the main use case is that X creates the file, right?
<mdz> ogra: still us, yes
<ogra> oki
<mdz> is that all?
<siretart> mdz: wait
<ogra> sistpoty, thats ok with you for the proxy stuff ?
<siretart> mdz: we shall bug you about EVERY package in universe for UVF exception?
<mdz> soyuz isn't going to change anything immediately regarding syncs
<mjg59> pitti: Yes
<ogra> siretart, thats what the proxies are for  ...
<mdz> siretart: isn't the purpose of the proxies to batch and filter the requests?
<siretart> argl, sorry I was misreading
<ogra> they must decide how critical it is
<mdz> ok
<mdz> we need to close
<mdz> for general health and sanity
<raphink> hehe
<sivang> indeed
<ogra> :)
<sistpoty> :)
<siretart> :)
<mdz> I'll flush the agenda shortly, antyhnig new can be added then
<mdz> meanwhile, adjourned
<mdz> thanks everyone, especially those who had to wait a long time for their turn
<ogra> thanks mdz 
<sistpoty> thx mdz
<janim1> thanks all
<janim1> xubuntu meeting starting in 3..2..1
<pitti> bye everybody
<sivang> night all
<janim1> night 
<sistpoty> gn8 everyone
<janim1> shall we start?
<technolalia> yes, it's getting late
<janim1> others here who came to the xubu meeting?
* janim1 is Jani Monoses
<crimsun> I'm here, but I /really/ need to step out for a drink
<crimsun> go on, and I'll read scrollback
* technolalia is John Levin
<janim1> ok John lets start, others will read the logs
<janim1> so 'The show so far':
<technolalia> First item: isos
<technolalia> That seems to be in hand
<janim1> yes
<technolalia> after the tech board meeting
<technolalia> Excellent!
<janim1> TB agreed so we are safe wrt CDs
<janim1> I'll need to push my work from localhost to a website and will get help in building them
<janim1> after they transiytion to soyuz next week probbaly
<janim1> but it's ok to have an agreement in principle
<janim1> So right now we are on track wrt packaging and software selection 
<janim1> modulo a few apps which do not yet exist for xfce 
<janim1> network and printer config being the most important
<janim1> this I will try taking care of
<technolalia> what about the default browser?
<janim1> I don't think there's one better suited than firefox now is there?
<technolalia> not right now
<janim1> it is big and slow  but what else is there?
<technolalia> nothing that I know of
<janim1> I looked around and hoped ubuntulite people who have done some research in this area
<janim1> come up with something but there aren;t really chioices
<janim1> there are various proof of concept webcore and gecko based light browsers but they are primitive
<crimsun> nope, we're pretty much stuck with firefox
<technolalia> some mozilla hackers have put out a couple of tools for finding memory leaks
<ranf> dillo. I really miss tabs though
<technolalia> which have plagued firefox
<nomed> janim1, ubuntulite seems to use dillo
<janim1> ranf, and javascript/frames/utf8  AFAIK
<technolalia> so hopefully performance and stability will improve
<nomed> i would suggest to add links2
<janim1> but probbalu not in dapper
<janim1> nomed, that's not a GUI app is it?
<nomed> links2 -g
<nomed> much better then dillo
<nomed> it need https support
<janim1> hmm is it on the proposed package list?
<nomed> from config
<nomed> it's an alternative to firefox for old hw machines
<janim1> ok this is not on the agenda let's have a discussion/proposal on the ml 
<nomed> they can check gmail for ex
<nomed> k
<janim1> any doc people around?
<technolalia> me
<janim1> good, are you on the ubuntu-doc team too?
<janim1> or in contact with them?
<technolalia> not really - on the mailing list but haven't been involved much
<technolalia> in contact, yes
<janim1> would you take up the issue of xubuntu-docs whatever it may mean?
<janim1> if we need anything besides the stock xfce docs
<janim1> and besides what is there in the current FF startup page
<technolalia> it's been raised on the list, and I think the infrastructure is being put in place
<janim1> oh, on ubuntu-doc?
<janim1> infrastruct for xubuntu related material?
<technolalia> yes - infrastructure for xubuntu materials
<crimsun> yes, corey was talking about it a few days ago
<crimsun> in -devel
<janim1> great
<janim1> hmm how did I miss that...
<janim1> ok John do you want to be the contact for xubuntu docs then?
<technolalia> missed because we need a Xubuntu newsletter?
<janim1> for users and the other ubuntu-doc people
<technolalia> I think Robert Stoffers might be doing that
<technolalia> I'll check and find out
<janim1> yes I saw his name on the wiki, but did not write to the list so far...
<technolalia> there's a xubuntu-docs package in the repositories
<janim1> Ok, I may just need a ping from time to time to update the xubuntu-docs package with whatever new material there is
<janim1> Once we have the 4.4 panel in we may want to see where to put a doc link prominently
<technolalia> when is 4.4 due out?
<janim1> and copy gnome/ubuntu as much as possible they seem to be doing sensible things wrt usability and docs
<janim1> they said (vaguely) February
<janim1> but we may package betas or RC earlier
<technolalia> I'll check to see what documentation they've done upstream
<janim1> they're not done with it yet, they may even need help :)
<technolalia> If we can get a beta packaged, then I can test it and add to their upstream docs
<janim1> ok I'll start on that. Probably the panel is the main difference wrt 4.2 depending on it's default settings we'll chose
<janim1> other thanb that we'll need to pick pieces of ubuntu-docs which mention evince, gdm
<janim1> and add abiword/gnumeric references
<janim1> making a gnumeric-gtk is still TODO
<janim1> does the ubuntu-doc team have translators or are they  separate teams for all languages?
<crimsun> are we going to tackle a11y, too?
* mhz is here now, sorry.
<technolalia> translation is handled seperately
<janim1> crimsun, I don;t think xfce provides a11y as good as gnome/kde
<janim1> or even close
<technolalia> whats ally?
<crimsun> janim1: didn't think so
<janim1> I am very unfamiliar with the subject
<mhz> technolalia: accessibility issues
<technolalia> mhz: thanks
<janim1> do they have magnifier/speech etc stuff?
<mhz> yw
<janim1> ok so looks like the doc effort is underway then
<crimsun> janim1: not last I looked
<janim1> art?
<technolalia> do we want to set up users forums yet?
<janim1> do we go with our current artwork or try involving art.u.c?
<janim1> john, if you think we need forums sure
<janim1> I don;t know how much users are there
<janim1> on u-users there are few xfce posts
<technolalia> I think it would be good to have them ready for the first isos
<janim1> so right now are there kubuntu and edubuntu forums?
<technolalia> that's when users will start using xubuntu in large numbers
<Riddell> janim1: kubuntu has forums
<janim1> if so we need a specialized forum for us too
<technolalia> yes - there are forums for k/ubuntu
<Riddell> janim1: edubuntu I assume has a space on ubuntuforums
<Riddell> janim1: it's an open question how much you want to split the community
<janim1> john, then please can you contact forum admins fro this?
<technolalia> we can put fourms on ubuntuforums
<Riddell> generally it's best not to 
<technolalia> sure
<technolalia> Riddell: what do you mean by split?
<technolalia> seperate xubuntuforums website?
<Riddell> technolalia: e.g. do we have a kubuntu-br.org site or do the brazillian kubuntu users take a corner of ubuntu-br.org
<Riddell> forums too
<Riddell> IRC channels 
<Riddell> etc
<crimsun> I don't see that being an issue given how quiet #xubuntu is
<janim1> we may encourage them to use ubuntu forums and if the numbers increase split then?
<technolalia> I think I'm for sharing already set-up infrastructures
<Riddell> janim1: not numbers, it's if they don't get answers to their questions or get incorrect answers that it's better to split
<technolalia> but ubuntu-users is already high traffic
<janim1> especially since xubuntu will have a lot in common with ubuntu
<Riddell> and when splitting make sure it's not really a split and all sides know what's going on
<janim1> so let's defer this to when we are close to the relase of the first CD?
<technolalia> fine by me
<janim1> I assume that creating a new channel in the fora can be done in a day if required
<Riddell> it might be a good idea to contact the ubuntuforums admins to tell them you're likely to want a board on their site
<janim1> yes, that'd be good
<Riddell> advanced notice is always a good idea
<technolalia> I'm already in contact with ubuntuforums
<technolalia> will email them tonight about progress
<janim1> thanks
<janim1> ok ART
<janim1> I am happy with current artwork (modulo polish)
<janim1> do we contact art-team or xfce upstream artists for help ?
<janim1> we may have to make a decision wrt default theme/colors soon
<Riddell> xubuntu was looking good when I tried it by the way
<janim1> I'll just start integrating what we have now and I assume again
<crimsun> janim1: it'll probably be easier to ask everyone but rely more on the community
<janim1> with teh firtst CD people will notice and chip in
<janim1> crimsun, announce a request for feedback on ubuntu-users? 
<janim1> could do that once gdm is in place
<crimsun> janim1: right, and on xfce's user list
<janim1> yeah I'll have to subscribe there as it does not let me through gmane for some reason
<janim1> ok i18n
<janim1> I thought of again announcing on the users list and upstream i18n list
<crimsun> definitely the latter
<janim1> and have a wiki page for each language where we describe our status  and contact persons
<janim1> we need to see about non-xfce apps which are not in gnome
<janim1> I don;t know about abiword/gnumeric i18n status for example
<janim1> and for translators of the documentation that will be written
<crimsun> janim1: hub (just approved for motu) is upstream for abiword
<janim1> yes, I saw that
<hub> yes
<hub> what is the question?
* hub reads back
<janim1> I meant we need to ask u-users too besides xfce-i18n
<crimsun> janim1: definitely
<janim1> hub, abiword translation status, we are talking about default apps in xubuntu
<hub> yeah I see
<janim1> so far there are French and Brazilian  xubuntu tanslators
<janim1> for install docs at least
<janim1> So I will set up the wiki pages and write to the two mailing lists
<janim1> ok anything else?
<janim1> if not good night/day everybody and thanks for coming :)
<nomed> janim1, 
<janim1> yes?
<crimsun> I'll have some multimedia questions in a week or so, but I'll shoot them to the list
<janim1> the volume manager?
<janim1> crimsun ,sure
<nomed> i'll post on the list *now* a message about a volume manager
<janim1> anything besides xfmedia?
<janim1> nomed, ok
<nomed> take a look on it
<technolalia> are there logs for this meetin? and if so, where?
<janim1> is tomorrow ok?
<crimsun> janim1: I'm thinking quodlibet instead of xfmedia
<janim1> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/ircLogs
<janim1> hmm is that a python app
<technolalia> thanks
<crimsun> janim1: yep
<janim1> I only read a rant about it on debian planet a month or so ago :)
<janim1> but I trust you know what you're doing :)(
<nomed> crimsun, i would use xfce apps
<crimsun> nomed: that would be my preference, too -- except xfmedia is known bugg{y,ier than quodlibet}
<janim1> crimsun, but sure write to the list so all can read and discuss it
<crimsun> but again, I'm investigating it and won't be making the decision alone
<janim1> yeah it hanged a couple times here
<nomed> crimsun, they are working on xfmedia for next release
<nomed> from what i know ...
<janim1> indeed Brian said he'd want a 1.0 in time for xfce 4.4
<janim1> crimsun, quodlibet seem to bring in gnome stuff
<janim1> or just recommends it actually
<janim1> and currently is still gst-0.8, is that in transitioning currently?
<crimsun> janim1: gst-0.10 support is a major rewrite slated for 0.17+
<janim1> dapper?
<crimsun> janim1: no idea, I'll ping Joe about it
<janim1> ok
<crimsun> that's all from me, gotta scoot to another meeting
<janim1> bye crimsun
<crimsun> cya :)
<technolalia> janiml: thanks for your hard work
<technolalia> and see you on the xubu-dev mailing list
<janim1> thanks all for your work :)
<janim1> sure 
<janim1> bye
<technolalia> bye
<nomed> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-15
<shawarma> @schedule Copenhansen
<shawarma> @schedule Copenhagen
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<comm[A|n] der> hi there
<tsmithe> hi
<juliux> comm[A|n] der, wrong channel;)pls /j #ubuntu-de-meeting
<comm[A|n] der> d'oh
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-16
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<Lure> @schedule ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: Current meeting: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<mdz> good afternoon
<cjwatson> I can't be here for the TB meeting, but I'd like to express support for Timo Aaltonen; he's been useful on d-i work in the past and has expressed interest in helping out with installer merge work
<dholbach> good evening
<cjwatson> what I've seen of his work has been competent
<cjwatson> anyway, got to run, sorry for the drive-by
<gpocentek> hello
<mdz> I'm not sure we'll be able to hold a meeting today; Scott is at LCA and I haven't heard from Mark or Matthew whether they're available
<Adri2000> oh :(
<pitti> hi
<dholbach> Mark is most probably not - he said so in a mail.
<mdz> Scott did say that he would be here, though it's 7am in sydney
<mdz> I'm trying to reach folks now
<mc44> mdz: Matthew is at LCA too
<mdz> if Scott turns up, then we'll hold a meeting, otherwise I'm afraid we'll have to cancel due to lack of quorum
<mdz> OK, I'm afraid I haven't been able to reach any other members of the Tech Board, so this meeting will need to be postponed
<mdz> I apologize for any inconvenience
<somerville32> Oh pooey :(
* pitti waves goodbye then
<mdz> it's unlikely to happen this week due to LCA
<ajmitch> unfortunate
<mdz> next week may or may not be a possibility due to the sprint
<mdz> watch -devel-announce for any changes
<tonyyarusso> no.../me wanted to talk to pitti :(
<dholbach> thanks mdz for trying
<tepsipakki> ok, next time then
<ausimage> Was there a TB meeting? It appears that the fabiones logs are not working.
<mc44> ausimage: no
<ausimage> K the calendar state there was....
<mc44> it was postponed due to lack of quorum
<ausimage> K thanks
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* tsmithe has quit ("Sleep")
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-17
<Seveas> tsmithe, liar :p
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
<highvoltage> excellen
<highvoltage> t
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 18 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 21 Jan 02:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 31 Jan 07:00: Technical Board
* Hobbsee wonders how they're going to have a ubuntu development meeting when there are a whole lot of devs at linux conf au, having dinner with au people at about  that time...
<juliux> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
<lotusleaf>  "looking through a demon's eye" "We're gonna spy on God Find out if he really is"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<juliux> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<willvdl> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
<highvoltage> hey pips1
<highvoltage> long time no see
<pips1> hey highvoltage
<willvdl> hey pips1!
<pips1> :-)
* pips1 looks around
<willvdl> right, who's present?
<willvdl> Shall we get cracking?
<pips1> sure
<pips1> RichEd is in Australia, right?
<willvdl> Riched is in Australia at LCA
<willvdl> snap
<willvdl> and ogra can't make it tonight
<pips1> ic
<juliux> hi
<pips1> rodarvus ?
<pips1> sbalneav ?
<sbalneav> Hello!
<willvdl> hey
<pips1> hi!!
<sbalneav> Present
<pips1> cbx33 ?
* sbalneav holds hand up
<willvdl> rodarvus is around I think
<pips1> willvdl: will you pace us through the agenda?
<willvdl> Well, let's get started anyway
<willvdl> === TECHNICAL ===
<willvdl> If ogra were here, I'm sure he'd ask for testers...
<willvdl> not sure how much we can cover in tech
<cbx33> hi
<sbalneav> I'll be doing some testing of thin client sound this weekend.
<willvdl> ola
<cbx33> nice one sbalneav
<willvdl> great, ogra mentioned sound architecture last week
* cbx33 has an update on LTCM(SCP)
* willvdl hands cbx33 the conch shell
<cbx33> oooh
<cbx33> well.....
<cbx33> is this thing on
<cbx33> ...
<cbx33> I have started the LTCM spec
<cbx33> it's now successfully broken up into front end and back end
<cbx33> which is awesome
<willvdl> aha. saw those discussions
<cbx33> today I worked for a little while on the tiled vnc feature that everyone wanted
<cbx33> and I actually got it working
<cbx33> borrowed some code from somewhere else
<cbx33> but it's all GPL so we're good
<willvdl> sweet
<cbx33> that's me done
<cbx33> anyone who wants to test it for me
<cbx33> shout
<willvdl> what does the "split" mean as such?
<cbx33> well
<cbx33> it will allow a KDE developer to write a kde front end for LTCM
<cbx33> since they can just import the backend module and all the hard stuff is done for them
<willvdl> ah. with clear api etc
<cbx33> indeed
<cbx33> and the backend is actually tiny
<cbx33> the gui takes up most code
* pips1 is trying to figure out the acronym... Linux Terminal Control Manager? Erm...
<Riddell> cbx33: what is LTCM?
<cbx33> LTSP Thin Client Manager
<willvdl> thin client manager
<willvdl> snap
<cbx33> damn you win ;)
<cbx33> however for now the vnc stuff will only be in the gnome version
<willvdl> looking forward to seeing it in action
<cbx33> as a) no one has stepped up to write a kde version yet and b) the code I hacked up was from a gnome app and I'm not sure how well it can be split
<pips1> so LTCM (LTSP Thin Client Manager) is now the official new name for SCP (Student Control Panel)?
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> oh and I spotted a bug in SCP which should be fixed soon
<pips1> right
<willvdl> I can't imagine you've had much time for the MOTD thingy?
<cbx33> unfortunately no
<cbx33> not yet
<cbx33> It's still a possibility
<cbx33> infact it's SOOO simple to implement
<willvdl> shall we move on?
<pips1> Is anyone present expecting to be able to test Herd 2, 3, ... (besides sbalneav)?
<cbx33> sure
<cbx33> unfortunately I won't have time
<pips1> let's move on..
<willvdl> let's skip to Artwork if no-one minds?
<cbx33> sure
<cbx33> Lisa is sorry she can't attend this evening
<willvdl> === ARTWORK ===
<willvdl> ^^^ makes logs easier to edit
<cbx33> she hasnt had a great deal of time lately....been very very busy with paid work
<cbx33> but she is still working hard...and really really needs your feedback
<willvdl> Canonical is going to employ an ubuntu artist
<cbx33> for edubuntu too?
<willvdl> need to see how that works out
<cbx33> ok
<willvdl> cbx33, feedback on templates, pallettes etc?
<cbx33> I think shes talking about the mock wallpaper she did a while back
<cbx33> but
<cbx33> I think they'll be some more before not too long to comment on
<cbx33> also
<cbx33> if anyeone knows of any budding artist
<cbx33> please get them involved
<willvdl> let's tap the Ubuntu Artwork channel
<willvdl> make a formal "call for contributions"?
<cbx33> well we have done that in the past
<cbx33> I'll get lisa to mail them tonight
<pips1> Does the Artwork Team have its own introduction/welcome page somewhere?
<willvdl> sweet. just good to voice ourselves I guess
<cbx33> yes
<willvdl> EdubuntuArtwork
<cbx33> people just don't seem keen to help out Edubuntu much
<willvdl> perhaps we need to make it easier for them
<willvdl> somehow...
<highvoltage> willvdl: i agree with you
<cbx33> me too
<cbx33> I just don;t know how
<willvdl> I'm don't hang around the artwork channels much or browse the contributions but there are a lot of folk contributing to Ubuntu art
<cbx33> yeh
<cbx33> ok I'll draft up an email...
<willvdl> if we have representation in those channels then well get stuff I'm sure
<cbx33> ok if I run it by you willvdl ?
<willvdl> sure
* pips1 glances at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<willvdl> Is there anyway we can merge our Artowrk "space" with the ubuntu artwork "space"?
<cbx33> hmmm
<cbx33> possibly I suppose
<pips1> hi LaserJock
<willvdl> quote: feisty will be designed by cliff
<LaserJock> hi everybody
<highvoltage> hey LaserJock
<willvdl> as with dapper. how did that affect edubuntu back then?
<LaserJock> uggg
<highvoltage> dapper was a tough one
<LaserJock> willvdl: armed revolt? :-)
<pips1> "Feisty artwork will be design by Cliff -- the fellow who designed the Dapper look. Do not expect to be able to contribute until sabdfl releases the official work. It is closed design involving Cliff and sabdfl only."
<willvdl> LaseJock, dodgy prawn?
<highvoltage> ogra and janew weren't very happy that they didn't have any say in the artwork
<cbx33> does that include edubuntu do we know?
<willvdl> did edubuntu do its own artwork in dapper?
<highvoltage> willvdl: hired artist
<willvdl> for backgrounds, splash and icons?
<highvoltage> willvdl: except for icons
<cbx33> we had a wallpaper in main though didn't we
<pips1> "Currently we are attempting to collect all art related people under the ubuntu-art team on Launchpad. This has been quite successful thus far, and therefore one should consider the ubuntu-art team as a good starting point for work. For links to legacy pages, please see the following links: EdubuntuArtwork ..."
<willvdl> legacy pages
<pips1> hmm
<cbx33> sounds old
<LaserJock> is there a rationale behind not letting the community do the artwork?
<LaserJock> it seems to go back and forth, kinda annoying
<pips1> yeah
<willvdl> http://art.ubuntu.com/main.php
<willvdl> anyway, it is still very valuable to have contributions regardless of closed design
<cbx33> well for a start we have more than just one wallpaper
<pips1> oh, I didn't know they had revanped the art.u.c site
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I don't think there's anythin wrong with Canonical hiring people to improve Ubuntu's artwork... but... \
<pips1> *revamped
<cbx33> highvoltage, I agree
<highvoltage> LaserJock: if there are better community submisions, it should be considered too, imho
<cbx33> maybe for get someone behind it to drive it in right direction
<LaserJock> highvoltage: but they won't consider them if they are already contracting people, it would be a waste of money
<willvdl> highvoltage, LaserJock : that is how I would expect things to be run
<cbx33> so will that be for Edubuntu too.....?
<cbx33> can we confirm this
<willvdl> just like Canonical hires kernel developers
<highvoltage> cbx33: by ubuntu I mean *buntu
<willvdl> cbx33, I will check
<cbx33> ah ok
<LaserJock> willvdl: it's a bit different, IMO
<willvdl> LaserJock, only if handled badly
<LaserJock> which it seems to have been historically
<LaserJock> artwork that is
<cbx33> basically how much should we push the artwork in Edubuntu
<cbx33> and how much is going to be forced upon us
<LaserJock> the Canonical hired kernel guys work in the open with patches, ML etc.
<LaserJock> generally we get to see the artwork when it's released
<willvdl> My opinion is to push contributions anyway
<willvdl> what we build now can always be used later or even make it in if the process allows
<willvdl> plus we keep the community active
<pips1> willvdl: but it's not very encouraging for designers, if the aren't any clear known "rules"
<cbx33> exactl
<cbx33> y
<pips1> clear procedures... so you know what to expect and what not to expect
<cbx33> it's pretty upsetting infact
<willvdl> agreed, but note that art.u.c gets contributions regardless
<cbx33> when someone has worked really hard ....
<cbx33> willvdl, it's a little different
<LaserJock> especially when the dev community all say the want a community artwork and are ignored
<LaserJock> *they
<cbx33> because edubuntu last relase had 2 contributors
<cbx33> so it makes it a little more personal
<willvdl> I hear you guys and agree
<willvdl> I'm just saying we should not stop contributing
<cbx33> no, but can you see how.....in a big community like ubuntu it just means a drop in contributions
<cbx33> but that with a tiny team....2 people that can make or break the contributions full stop
<willvdl> yeah.
* pips1 reads the introduction on http://art.ubuntu.com/main.php
<willvdl> OK, PoA:
<LaserJock> especially when the community isn't consulted at all
<pips1> cbx33: good point
<willvdl> will check on procedures, policies etc internally
<cbx33> also....
<willvdl> and, seperate issue, try and integrate more with artwork team for leverage?
<pips1> ok, willvdl to report back at the next meeting :-)
<willvdl> just not sure immediately how to achieve the latter
<willvdl> There's definately enough concern on the issue to raise it
<pips1> how relevant is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art ?
<pips1> ... to edubuntu artwork, I mean
<highvoltage> pips1: fairly
<highvoltage> pips1: edubuntu inherits some of the ubuntu artwork stuff
<highvoltage> pips1: like firefox themes, etx
<highvoltage> *etc
<willvdl> any *buntu artwork work should include/be relevant to edubuntu IMHO
<highvoltage> pips1: and the edubuntu gtk theme is normally derived from whatever theme is in use on edubuntu
<highvoltage> I mean, Ubuntu
* highvoltage really needs some sleep
<cbx33> nn highvoltage
<cbx33> ;)
<highvoltage> cbx33: heh. I'll hold out a bit :)
<willvdl> Okie, lets discuss further on ML and I'll try find out what I can
<cbx33> ok
<pips1> In that case, it might be a good idea to link to that launchpad specifications page from the artwork wiki page, so the community artists (i.e. AliasVegas) know what is done for ubuntu...
<willvdl> from EdubuntuArtwork?
<pips1> yep
<pips1> just a thought
<willvdl> what interests me is that the artwork team consider EdubuntuArt as legacy page
<willvdl> assuming the community is already integrated
<cbx33> yeh...funny that
<willvdl> We should fix that
<cbx33> i don't remember anyone talking to Lisa about it ;)
<willvdl> it's a perception
<pips1> well things are always moving fast in ubuntu land :-) and it's hard to keep up with what is going on everywhere
<willvdl> :)
<willvdl> shall we move to docs?
<cbx33> ok
<willvdl> === Documentation ===
<willvdl> I've been thinking about doc contributions somewhat
<willvdl> and have chatted to a number of folk
<cbx33> ok
<willvdl> on wiki contributions vs SVN contributions
<willvdl> meaning wiki = open collaboration
<willvdl> and svn = open collaboration but large barrier
<willvdl> how do you folks feel?
<LaserJock> depends on the doc, IMO
<willvdl> true
<pips1> wiki = medium barrier too, AFAIK
<LaserJock> if you want it stable and need to be in various formats do docbook
<LaserJock> with svn
<willvdl> yip, but the svn authors can pull their info form the wiki
<willvdl> if the wiki is used as the "development" space
<pips1> hold on, we are talking about a variety of tools and formats here...
<willvdl> true
<pips1> docbook = format
<pips1> svn = versioned repository
<pips1> wiki = versioned repository with web frontend
<pips1> no?
<willvdl> yip
<willvdl> also docs in svn get packaged
<LaserJock> wiki also = format
<pips1> willvdl: how do you imagine your "perfect" documentation process?
<willvdl> perfect? :)
<willvdl> well, I'm just again trying to leverage contributions
<Joe5656> !Question  How do I leave this channel?  I'm not at the right channel here....  My apologies for interrupting you all!
<pips1> LaserJock: ok, wiki stores the information in its own format, that's right
<willvdl> and was thinking back to a conversation I had with pips1 vefore the holidays
<willvdl> and others
<willvdl> being that the wiki is the easiest and most open tool and repo we have for contributions
<willvdl> Would something like this work?: Docs get planned and "authored" to a degree on the wiki. At logical times the SVN authors pull this info into the docbook files
<pips1> well, ideally we could have a super userfriendly "frontend" tool combined with the benefits of a standard format such as docbook...
<willvdl> although my suggestion is contrary to using Launchpad, bug-reporting etc
<pips1> how so?
* pips1 isn't sure he is following willvdl
<LaserJock> Joe5656: /leave
<Joe5656> Thanks laser!
<LaserJock> I'm not sure that easy contribution is always the way to go though ...
<willvdl> perhaps LaserJock can help me here, but LP tracks the docs (in whatever format) and contributions are made in patches, bug-reports or specs
<LaserJock> sometimes a little barrier isn't a bad thing
<LaserJock> well, we have an upstream product
<LaserJock> people can file bugs against that
<LaserJock> and we can write specs
<LaserJock> patches are sent to the ML
<willvdl> perhaps we should take a step back here
<willvdl> and look at what docs we are needing
<willvdl> We need an install guide prob
<willvdl> release-notes & about page
<willvdl> and LTSP info as it forms part of our release
<willvdl> given the topics, and the authors, what would the best tools be?
<willvdl> pips1 what are your thoughts?
<sbalneav> Sorry to interject, but is the svn repo for the handbook still on digitalredneck?
<willvdl> nope. moved into docteam.u.c
<sbalneav> Do I still have commit?
<pips1> Off the top of my head: About (Intro/Overview, Release Notes, Sources of further help, ...), Installation and Configuration Guide (Desktop Guide, Server Guide, plus specifically LTSP), Customisation ("Cookbook"), plus How to contribute to Edubuntu Project.
<willvdl> sbalneav, best check with mdke or someone
<willvdl> not sure
<cbx33> sorry guys I'm gonna have to duck out, splitting headache
<willvdl> pips1 the "guides": meaning the ubuntu ones or our own?
<cbx33> and tired
<pips1> willvdl: we can probably reuse the "Ubuntu Guides", but I haven't really looked into that, so I don't really know.
<willvdl> I'd like to open a discussion on the handbook aim again. I think things have move along alot since it was created
<LaserJock> well, it's also noteworthy that Ubuntu and Kubuntu are moving away from "guides"
<pips1> The Desktop Guide and the Server Guide from Ubuntu are shipped with Edubuntu anyway, right?
<willvdl> pips1, have you looked at the Topic Based Help spec?
<willvdl> thinks so
<pips1> LaserJock: tell us more?
<LaserJock> right now, Edubuntu ships ubuntu-docs
<pips1> yep
<LaserJock> pips1: the doc team is going for a more topic based approach
<LaserJock> so if we just basically created add-on topics to cover Edubuntu specifics
* pips1 reads https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-based-help
<LaserJock> we can "blend in" with the rest of Ubuntu docs
<LaserJock> and there would be no duplication
<willvdl> LaserJock, this would be the domain of the Handbook right?
<tsmithe> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
<pips1> In the spec it says "The Ubuntu/Kubuntu documentation teams do not have the resources to implement a topic-based help system from scratch. So for now we should restrict our efforts to reorganizing the Desktop Guide and Server Guide, to make the documentation easier to navigate."
<LaserJock> willvdl: what I'm saying is that I'm not sure that a "Handbook" fits in with the way documentation in Ubuntu and upstream are heading
<LaserJock> it's fine for a book, or an all-inclusive PDF or something
<LaserJock> which I think there would be a demand for
<willvdl> LaserJock, I chatted to Sean Wheller about that earlier
<willvdl> and looked at the original aim of the handbook again
<LaserJock> but I think you could do that with the TBH approach anyway
<willvdl> and I think you're right in a sense
<willvdl> But the handbook aim was as an install/customisation/basic usage guide?
<LaserJock> it was meant by Mario to be a book
<sbalneav> LTSP, though, isn't something that fits well into TBH.  There's a lot of pre-tech stuff, and the whole "integration into my windows network" thing's a pain.
<LaserJock> the one-stop shop for Edubuntu
<willvdl> sbalneav, I thought you might say that
<willvdl> LaserJock, it can still be but we need TBH to "mature" first
<willvdl> IMHO
<sbalneav> The problem with LTSP is, it's really a "tech" thing, and not a user thing.
<LaserJock> sbalneav: well, I'm not sure why having a "Configuring an LTSP Server" would be a had topic
<LaserJock> s/had/bad/
<LaserJock> ok, so I think the decision needs to be made there
<willvdl> it becomes an interesting topic to squeeze in since it depends on the specific network topology
<LaserJock> what do you want to present in the user's help system
<LaserJock> and what do you want to provide online
<sbalneav> It would be a big topic.  Usually TBH is supposed to be "short snapper" type help, isn't it?  Or am I smoking crack again?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: ideally yeah
<LaserJock> sbalneav: but we have the Server Guide in there
<LaserJock> which isn't all that non-tech
<sbalneav> I'm good either way.
<willvdl> LTSP would fit into the server guide logically right?
<sbalneav> Right.
<LaserJock> I think you guys should take a look at the feisty docs
<LaserJock> just to get a feel for what it's like
<willvdl> but, as I understand from ogra, installing it ontop of ubuntu versus out of edubuntu is slightly difference
<LaserJock> and see if you think it could fit in well there
<willvdl> *different
<LaserJock> willvdl: Ubuntu users wouldn't see it
<willvdl> LaserJock, the doc? or ltsp?
<LaserJock> ltsp stuff
<willvdl> but thry could if they chose
<LaserJock> that's what I'm saying, LTSP would be inserted into the help system on Edubuntu machines
<LaserJock> if they installed edubuntu-docs
<willvdl> cool. so we definitely need LTSP doc & LTCM (SCP) doc
<LaserJock> well, you don't have a ton of time for all this
<willvdl> plus install guide & customisation guide as a first priority?
<LaserJock> String Freeze is March 8th
<willvdl> I know
<willvdl> and I'm not around for much of Feb or March
<LaserJock> well, I still think you need to seperate out exactly what you want for shipped material vs. online material
<willvdl> trying to
<willvdl> personally I'd like as much as possible shipped.
<willvdl> sbalneav, you're putting your stuff in the handbook right?
<pips1> sbalneav: regarding your 'short snapper' comment earlier... I just discovered the useful tips on writing help docs here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure
<willvdl> pips1, something else we should maybe look at...
<willvdl> some of our docs are in the drupal CMS. maybe start moving them to the svn?
<willvdl> I've also been reading your various planning pages for the web/wiki
<pips1> did you make any sense from them?
<willvdl> yeah. alot had to do with setting up drupal site. looots of info
<willvdl> good stuff
<willvdl> I'd like to chat to you later or tomorrow about some content?
<pips1> willvdl: I agree with LaserJock that there is a difference between shipped / "solid" documentation and online / flexible documentation...
<willvdl> yes.
<willvdl> just trying to decide what we should work on as priority for shipped docs
<pips1> ok
<pips1> and there needs to be a process for moving and refining online/in flux docs to shippable documentation
<willvdl> yip. what I was asking earlier
<willvdl> depends on the doc and author
<willvdl> Specifically the release-notes and About page can be handled like that
<pips1> They way I see it, we will have community members' "input" in both drupal and the wiki...
<willvdl> well not the drupal... ?
<pips1> drupal will have forums, and eventually community members will write stuff that is worthy and valid documentation... ?
<willvdl> but there is ubuntuforums.org?
<willvdl> anyway, I am following you
<pips1> (drupal also has a nice "book" content type, for "sequential"/ordered content).
<willvdl> pips1, how do you envisage using something like that for community contribution?
<willvdl> sine it is not really a versioning tool...
<pips1> willvdl: RichEd and me discussed the "filtering" process at UDS MV... we haven't quite gone into implementational details (with Drupal) yet.
<willvdl> ah, you mean the community education site? or www.edubuntu.org?
<pips1> (willvdl: note I'm not sure if / I don't actually think we want to use the "drupal book" content type at all). I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it.
<pips1> willvdl: I'm talking about the community site
<willvdl> no worries, it's the concept that's important
<willvdl> pips1 something else I'd like to push with doc team is the Quality Assurance spec
<pips1> link ?
<willvdl> which has policies for Release sensitive help pages
* willvdl looks
<pips1> ohhh, that would be very interesting indeed
<willvdl> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+spec/help-wiki-quality-assurance
<willvdl> so that we don't confuse edgy docs with dapper etc.
<willvdl> I think it's very easy to do.
<pips1> willvdl: explain how...
<willvdl> edgy pages go in a edgy sub-page
<willvdl> or have an edgy name space for example
<willvdl> EdubuntuEdgyXXXXX
<willvdl> or EdubuntuXXXXX/Edgy/
<dsas> Or says at the top of the page. "Applies to Edgy and Feisty"
<willvdl> dsas, yip. or even categories
<dsas> easier then for docs that apply to multiple releases to not have redundant copies.
<willvdl> but namesacing makes it easier for scripts and preserves namespace for future release docs
<willvdl> dsas, redirects
* pips1 notes that the spec is for improving the functionality of moin moin wiki, but the spec is new, so it probably won't be implemented shortly (?)
<willvdl> anyway it's a topic for debate in the doc-team
<willvdl> not edubuntu
<willvdl> OK we need to wrap up. Let's flag the Online/Offline doc inclusion as an Unresolved Issue
<pips1> I will just note that on the future edubuntu community space, we can simply use drupal's tagging feature
<willvdl> cool. tags will work too
<willvdl> pips1 are you around tomorrow morning?
<pips1> hmm
<willvdl> or friday?
<pips1> friday is better, I got a bunch of work I need to do tomorrow
<pips1> let's set a time
<willvdl> cool. just want to confirm some stuff with you
<willvdl> let's set time after meeting
<pips1> ok
<willvdl> Anyone want to bring anything else to the table?
<willvdl> Oh, cbx33 is going to write the Edubuntu chapter in the Ubuntu Book!!!
<willvdl> He wants a call for suggestions/ feedback etc.
<pips1> heh
<willvdl> Let's give him some support on this, it's good for us :)
<willvdl> Okie going once?
<pips1> are you talking about the printed book, or wha?
<willvdl> yip
<pips1> *what?
<pips1> ah
<willvdl> official ubuntu book
<willvdl> going twice?
<pips1> ah.. an updated version, I take it... what is the timeline for it?
<willvdl> no idea unfortunately
<willvdl> best ask cbx33 :)
<pips1> righty
<willvdl> Okie, six minutes short of two hours and we've covered some serious debate :)
<willvdl> let's take the edubuntu doc discussion to the ML and to the ubuntu-doc team
<pips1> Good to hear about all that documentation thoughts..
<willvdl> pips1 it is a big and confusing monster
<willvdl> but fun
<pips1> :-)
<willvdl> OK, thrice. thanks folks. I'll have minutes up as soon as possible
<pips1> Thanks
<pips1> cu all!
<willvdl> ciao
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-18
<Whatsisname> whoops
<dholbach> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 18 Jan 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu
<dholbach> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 18 Jan 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 18 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 10:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu
<cypher1> @schedule calcutta
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Calcutta: 19 Jan 02:30: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 20:30: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 17:30: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 21:30: Ubuntu Development Team | 31 Jan 01:30: Technical Board | 01 Feb 01:30: Edubuntu
<dholbach> hello everybody
<heno> hello folks!
<dsas> hello dholbach (lecture got cancelled :))
<rulus> hi
<dholbach> this is the bughelper meeting
<dholbach> dsas: good you could make it
<alex_muntada> hello everybody!
<dholbach> I announced the meeting over here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-bugsquad/2007-January/000236.html and I think we can use the list as a rough 'agenda'
<dholbach> bughelper is a tool that heno started off (everybody thank him for that) and it'll hopefully make our bug triaging efforts all a bit easier
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper has some information about it
<dholbach> and heno was kind enough to start a tutorial over here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper/Tutorial
<dholbach> let's all take a look at it now: please check it out by running something like:  bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bugsquad/bughelper/bughelper.main
<gnomefreak> thanks heno :)
<heno> I had an itch
<dholbach> bughelper has its brain in the ./packages directory
<heno> in the form of 668 open ubiquity bugs
<dholbach> we recently changed the .info files to an XML format, which is described over here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper/Dev/ClueFiles
<heno> thank dholbach for that!
<dholbach> which allows us to do queries depending on nested and/or/not statements
<dholbach> de rien, I had fun hacking it :)
<dholbach> as you can see from your local branch, the packages/ directory doesn't contain that much information yet
<dholbach> if you invoke    bughelper    with a source package, it will check all the ubuntu launchpad bugs for that source package (based on the clues in the .info files)
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~/bughelper.main$ ./bughelper vino
<dholbach> http://launchpad.net/bugs/43050 :  Vino crasher bugs
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~/bughelper.main$
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 43050 in vino "vino-server crashes after connect if resolution has been changed via xrandr" [Unknown,Unconfirmed] 
<dholbach> that's the result I get for vino
<dholbach> bughelper can also search in the attachments of the bugs, if you pass it the   -A   flag
<Nafallo> <3
<dholbach> with   -a   it searches not just on the first page of the launchpad bug listing (which only contains 75 bugs), but on all the succeeding pages also
<seb128> dholbach: I think -a should be the default
<seb128> any case where we want to limit to one page
<seb128> the "one page" doesn't make any real sense
<alex_muntada> I got an error...
<alex_muntada> Traceback (most recent call last):
<alex_muntada>   File "./bughelper", line 58, in ?
<alex_muntada>     main()
<alex_muntada>   File "./bughelper", line 34, in main
<alex_muntada>     if not utils.package_exists(cl.sourcepackage):
<alex_muntada>   File "/home/alexm/ubuntu/bughelper/bughelper.main/bugHelper/utils.py", line 25, in package_exists
<alex_muntada>     sources = apt_pkg.GetPkgSrcRecords()
<alex_muntada> SystemError: E:You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list
<heno> that will become obsolete with XML bug data
<dholbach> seb128: file a wishlist bug :-)
<seb128> dholbach: oki
<dholbach> alex_muntada: can you file a bug about that too? we should catch that bug
<dsas> alex_muntada: You do not have any deb-src lines in /etc/apt/sources.list. We should catch that.
<heno> but I agree with seb128
<dholbach> you can also pass a custom bug list URL to the bughelper, with    -l <url>
<gnomefreak> this only works with packages in the packages folder right?
<alex_muntada> dholbach: sure
<dholbach> gnomefreak: bughelper will only issue clues it has in the packages/ folder
<alex_muntada> dsas: you're right, thanks!
<gnomefreak> k
<dholbach> gnomefreak: one of the next steps will be to have 'general clues'
<dholbach> gnomefreak: so that totem.info can inherit from gnome.info or something like that
<gnomefreak> ok cool
<heno> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bughelper/+bug/79151
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 79151 in bughelper "support global clues" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<dholbach> thanks heno :)
<gnomefreak> ty heno
<dholbach> if you examine one of the .info files, you will see that it could be a bit irksome to type in all the XML yourself
<dholbach> that's why I added    bugxml -sa <package> <condition> <clue information>    yesterday
<dholbach> which will do the work for the simple cases for you
<dholbach> that's roughly what bughelper can do for you at the moment
<dholbach> I'm very happy with what we've achieved - thanks to all the contributors
<dholbach> given that the effort is only around 4 weeks old ;-)
<dholbach> are there any questions up until now?
<heno> Yeah, bit really rocks to see patches coming in!
<heno> *it
<dholbach> Any suggestions?
<dholbach> Any crazy ideas off the top of your head?
<dholbach> Ok, let's move on then
<dholbach> The future, of course, looks bright
<dholbach> we'll move on to version 0.1 now and only implement tiny bits and pieces and QA it properly
<heno> Could bughelper also look in upstream BTSes for dupes?
<dholbach> heno: at some stage... why not?
<heno> agree about the 0.1 plan
<dholbach> we marked a bunch of bugs as 0.1: https://launchpad.net/bughelper/+milestone/0.1
<dholbach> and most of them are easy fixes and enhancements, so there's plenty of room to get involved
<Nafallo> :-)
<dholbach> we want it to live packaged in Ubuntu, but I'd personally recommend: implemeting all the 0.1 bugs, then QA for 2 weeks (and of course add lots of .info clues), then upload to Ubuntu
<dholbach> what do you think about that?
<heno> cool! universe, I take it
<Nafallo> dholbach: sounds good
<Nafallo> heno: indeed
<dholbach> (if you plan to hack a bit on bughelper yourself, these are the bugs marked as 'bitesize': https://launchpad.net/bughelper/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize - they should be really easy and good to work on, if you want to contribute)
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> we absolutely need documentation for it
<alex_muntada> Just filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/bughelper/+bug/80453
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 80453 in bughelper "You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list" [Medium,Confirmed] 
<dholbach> so if you want to help with that, I'd highly appreciate it
<dholbach> alex_muntada: thanks a lot
<alex_muntada> :)
<seb128> dholbach: I've a question
<dholbach> we need wiki docs, manpages and a nice README
<dholbach> seb128: fire away
<seb128> has anybody talked with launchpad guys about it?
<seb128> how does the bughelper query impact on the lp load?
<dholbach> seb128: yes, I sent a mail to their list already and matsubara was nice enough to comment on a bug
<dholbach> seb128: dsas changed the http user agent to "bughelper <version> ..." so they can track our load on it
<seb128> good
<seb128> because I don't want to DoS launchpad because many people start doing huge query with it
<dholbach> we need documentation on:
<dholbach>  * usage of the commands (all flags explained)
<dholbach>  * how to add clues
<dholbach>  * process docs - how we collaborate
<dholbach>  * tiny recipes, that explain how you work with it
<dholbach> (anything else you can think of?)
<dholbach> can somebody of you imagine contributing to bughelper in any way?
<dholbach> be it documentation, code, clue files, bug reports or anything else? :)
<dholbach> ok, I see - let's move on then
<Nafallo> hehe
<dholbach>  * we need people to spread the word (in blogs, mailing lists, etc. :))
<Nafallo> I think that will show itself later :-)
<alex_muntada> yesterday I started to look at the docbook example that you suggested (kxmame)
<dholbach> alex_muntada: ah nice... did it look manageable?
<alex_muntada> but it's based on KDE handbooks
<alex_muntada> is it fine for bughelper?
<dholbach> alex_muntada: the one contained in debian/?
<dholbach> alex_muntada: that's used to build a manpage iirc
<dholbach> (thanks heno btw for spreading the word already :-))
<alex_muntada> dholbach: I'm not sure it was the one on debian, let me check
<dholbach> alex_muntada: ah ok, yeah - there might have been others too
<dholbach> a last item (apart from general Q&A), I'd like to talk about is the processes we need to work on bughelper
<dholbach> I envisioned doing commits to ~bugsquad/bughelper/bughelper.main only after peer review
<dholbach> and heno, dsas, Vassilis Pandis and Brian Murray and I have been quite good with that already
<Nafallo> does that happen on IRC?
<dholbach> so after one review (either in bug reports, mails on the mailing list) a merge and push to bughelper.main should be fine
<dholbach> of course this is not suitable for additions and changes to clue files
<dholbach> what do you think about that?
<dholbach> how did it work for you until now?
<dholbach> Nafallo: we did some small discussions about patches yesterday in IRC on #ubungu-bugs, yes
<Nafallo> dholbach: nice. so peer review on any suitable forum then ;-)
<dholbach> Nafallo: but until now the development happened mostly off-irc, which I think is very good
<Nafallo> sounds good :-)
<dsas> the process so far has been fine by me. Patches still get pushed quickly and I'd be uncomfortable with my work going in without them.
<dsas> them being reviews :)
<dholbach> dsas: same for me
<dholbach> heno, seb128: what do you think?
<seb128> dholbach: review for code changes are good
<heno> I'm probably not the best person to be main reviewer
<heno> as my python is quite weak
<dholbach> heno: but what do you think about the idea?
<seb128> dholbach: how are commit access handled?
<dholbach> seb128: everybody in ~bugsquad can commit to ~bugsquad/bughelper/bughelper.main
<heno> sounds sound
<seb128> dholbach: well, I would trust people to not abuse
<dholbach> seb128: so we're really lax about commit access, which I think is good (until it should really prove otherwise)
<dholbach> me too
<alex_muntada> I like the idea too, though my python is also weak
<seb128> and that's not a stable app that we need to be careful not to break
<seb128> the review is not really required
<dholbach> I'll try to only upload to Ubuntu what has really proven to be stable
<dholbach> so how should we proceed about changes/additions to clue files?
<dholbach> my feeling is that bug reports for that are too heavy
<seb128> maybe have a "proposed-clue" directory to bzr somewhere
<seb128> have people to commit there
<alex_muntada> since I just began to work with bzr and launchpad for devel, I'll ask any of you before committing anything to main branch
<seb128> and have somebody in charge of merging interest clues then
<heno> could we just send files to the ML?
<dholbach> at some stage we should move to another list ;-)
<dholbach> but that is imho not now
<dsas> maybe people would find it easier to paste an xml file into a bug report rather than having to learn about bzr and LP.
<seb128> heno: I don't think flooding the list is a good diea
<seb128> idea
<alex_muntada> dsas: agreed
<dholbach> should we just make a good document on how to commit them directly, forcing them to use   bzr diff | diffstat   before committing?
<seb128> dsas: people who don't know about bzr probably don't know enough to determine what clues are interesting
<heno> I agree with dsas. committing to bzr can be scary
<seb128> I don't want a zillion of clue with are not useful there
<Nafallo> I like seb128s idea :-)
<seb128> that's like tags
<heno> which raises an interesting question:
<dsas> seb128: If they're in the bug tracker then a set of bughelper hackers can choose which ones to commit.
<seb128> there is people are who tag "package" bugs with the tag "package"
<alex_muntada> seb128: but there are more people triaging bugs that could know enough to write clues even if they know nothing about bzr
<heno> how do we know which clues are useful?
<seb128> the same people are able to add a "package" clue to "package" :p
<dholbach> heno: I don't think we can ever know that
<dholbach> heno: unless we maintain that package
<seb128> I do know what GNOME clues would be useful or not
<dholbach> (or take reasonable good care for it)
<seb128> that's the frequent crashers or problems sent
<dholbach> s/for/of
<heno> ok
<dholbach> we could also split the branches
<dholbach> bughelper and bughelper-data
<dholbach> and also package them separately
<alex_muntada> dholbach: good idea!
<dholbach> we probably wouldn't have to subscribe the bugsquad to bughelper-data, so they wouldn't show up on the list
<dholbach> but just people who'd take care of merging them in
<alex_muntada> that way we can package them in large groups: bughelper-data-gnome, bughelper-data-kde, bughelper-data-xorg...
<dholbach> we can see if that will ever prove necessary
<dholbach> seb128, dsas, heno: does that idea make sense?
<seb128> yep, makes sense imho
<heno> yes, I think one package bughelper-data is enough though
<dholbach> although it can be quite hairy to have two separate branches to update
<dholbach> dunno if a branch in a branch works
<dsas> Makes sense to me.
<seb128> dholbach: don't bother, the package is small enough to get frequent updates
<heno> are we likely to change the xml file structure much from now on?
<seb128> and KDE people will not change GNOME clues anyway
<seb128> no need to split
<dholbach> seb128: so you'd just work with the bughelper-data package and not with checkouts?
<dholbach> heno: maybe add <sourcepackage>
<dholbach> heno: that's all I can think about right now
<seb128> dholbach: well, we package from bzr
<seb128> dholbach: no split to -data-gnome, -data-kde, etc though
<dholbach> seb128: ./bughelper/ = one branch
<dholbach> seb128: ./bughelper/packages = another branch
<persia> Why not provide two binaries from a single source, so as to defer the one/two branches decision?
<dholbach> seb128: that's my concern
<heno> dholbach: perhaps <wikipage> too
<seb128> dholbach: I've no string preference
<heno> with triaging tips for that pkg
<dholbach> heno: it's no problem to add optional tags
<heno> ok
<dholbach> ok, let's defer the -data discussion
<dholbach> i'll think about it some more and try to figure out something clever
<dholbach> for now it should be possible to just change them in .main
<dholbach> if you add them yourself, they come in via mail or bug report, no problem
<heno> I think your last version is sound
<dholbach> heno: what do you mean?
<heno> having a separate branch will encourage clue file upoads
<heno> because you don't worry so much about breaking the whole thing
<dholbach> heno: we'll have the problem of having different branches on the disk, if we work from ~/bzr
<heno> seb128: ./bughelper/ = one branch
<heno>  seb128: ./bughelper/packages = another branch
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> I'm not sure that works
<heno> hm, ok
<heno> let's work it out next week
<dholbach> we can still figure that out - on the list probably
<dholbach> yeah
<dsas> can't we just bzr ignore bughelper/packages ?
<dholbach> dsas: we need to try that
<seb128> brb, trying new GTK
<dholbach> we could also set a LOCAL_BUGHELPER_DATA_DIR in ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> and use that in addition to /usr/share/bughelper/packages (which the package will install to)
<alex_muntada> dholbach: you were right about docbook man page... it was on debian
<alex_muntada> dholbach: I'll try to get a man page ready
<dholbach> that way we could have   ~/bzr/bughelper/      and     ~/bzr/bughelper-data/
<gnomefreak> taking suggestions on packages/clues to add?
<dholbach> alex_muntada: thanks a lot - you should be able to reuse README
<dholbach> gnomefreak: what do you mean?
* gnomefreak would be happy with apt, update-manger and the alike clues
<dholbach> heno: I think we should start a wiki page on BugHelper/Dev/SplittingOutData or something
<heno> yep
<dholbach> gnomefreak: if we have people who care about certain packages that's great
<dholbach> gnomefreak: so if you want to commit some clues for that, that's VERY cool
<gnomefreak> dholbach: once i figure it out i will try
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> gnomefreak: we'll set up a document for that
<gnomefreak> ok ty
<dholbach> are there any other questions?
<gnomefreak> not from me
<dholbach> any concerns from the launchpad folks: matsubara-lunch? :)
<heno> has anyone actually found it useful so far?
<heno> just curious
<dholbach> excellent question :)
<dholbach> seb128 and cjwatson have used it to grep through bug attachments afaik
<heno> I have, and I think Colin has
<dholbach> seb128 told me he found 2 dups that LP didn't find
<Nafallo> I found out about it in the beginning of this meeting ;-)
<heno> yeah, cjwatson too all my low hanging ubiquity fruit one day :-/
<heno> *took
* dholbach makes bug 79151 a 0.1 feature
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 79151 in bughelper "support global clues" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/79151
<heno> that's teach me to make open source tools
<heno> *that'll
<dholbach> :)
* heno can't type today
* dholbach hugs heno
* heno hugs dholbach
<dholbach> ok... if you don't have anything you want to bring up now, let's close the meeting and go back to hacking or bug triaging :-)
<dholbach> oh, I have something
<Nafallo> hmm, translating ;-)
<dholbach> if you think that one of the open bugs https://launchpad.net/bughelper/+bugs classifies to be a must 0.1 feature, say so in the bug
<Nafallo> dholbach: if don't have anything new for me to make up-to-date? :-)
<dholbach> Nafallo: make up-to-date?
<Nafallo> dholbach: "new upstream release"
<dholbach> translating would be nice... although I think it'd be quite irksome to translate all the clues
<alex_muntada> dholbach: I was thinking about taking bug 79222 (docs) but I'd like to know what doc tools should I use, docbook?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 79222 in bughelper "RFE: add documentation to bughelper" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/79222
<heno> translated error logs might actually be a problem for bughelper
<dholbach> and given that LP Bugs is completely in english, ...
<rulus> maybe we can translate the docs though?
<dholbach> alex_muntada: those can be plain text files
<heno> if the clue has english text but the log has german or swedish
<dholbach> rulus: sure, why not
<Nafallo> dholbach: oh. I was more suggesting I should go back to translating gajim before the 0.11.1 release :-)
<alex_muntada> dholbach: great, far easier to do
<dholbach> if you want to translate documents, sure go ahead - we'll add them
<dholbach> Nafallo: ah ok
<heno> right, but the syslogs can be in any language
<dholbach> I don't think there's much use of bughelper being in german/spanish or something
<dholbach> heno: we can just filter for that
<Nafallo> agreed :-)
<heno> ok
<dholbach> heno: we just ignore it's another language - it's merely a string :)
<dholbach> Ok cool
<dholbach> Going Once...
<dholbach> Going Twice...
<dholbach> Meeting Adjourned
<dholbach> i'll add the log to the wiki
<dholbach> thanks everybody
<heno> Great meting, thanks all!
<fernando> thanks dholbach
<Nafallo> thanks YOU :-)
<Nafallo> s/s//
<rulus> thanks for keeping us up to date :)
<gnomefreak> ty
<dholbach> anytime - bughelper is a great project to work on
<seb128> dholbach: thank you ;)
* dholbach hugs everybody
<alex_muntada> thanks!
* alex_muntada hugs dholbach
* gnomefreak *hugs* dholbach 
<Yawner> I missed the meeting didnt I..
<Yawner> back to reading I suppose :(
<heno> Yawner: the bughelper meeting?, yes you did. Do you have the log?
<Klaidas> @schedule VIlnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 18 Jan 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 22:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 22:00: Edubuntu
<Yawner> Yeah I have been sitting in here since yesterday, ill read it back in a sec
<alex_muntada> @schedule barcelona
<dholbach> let's move to #ubuntu-bugs
<dholbach> Yawner: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper/Dev/Meetings/20070118
<alex_muntada> @schedule madrid
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 18 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu
<alex_muntada> @schedule andorra
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Andorra: 18 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu
<Lure> @schedule ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 18 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<cjwatson> heno: re earlier, yes, bughelper is now an important part of my workflow
<mdz> good evening
<cjwatson> need to get round to contributing clue file changes back
<heno> cjwatson: cool :)
<kylem> g'afternoon mdz.
<fabbione> evening
<cjwatson> (I haven't updated to the XML bughelper yet)
<mdz> did anyone hear from Scott about whether he'll be here?
<cjwatson> not I
<mdz> who do we have so far?
<heno> cjwatson: we should get input on the clue files from maintainers of various large packagers to help people triage better
<cjwatson> absolutely
<zul> hi
<kwwii> evening
<bdmurray> hello
<dholbach> cjwatson:   bugxml -sa ubiquity <condition> <info>   :-)
<mdz> kwwii,bdmurray: welcome!
<cjwatson> yep, I just need to switch to it - I have local changes so it's not entirely trivial
<mdz> glad to hear you'll be attending the sprint next week
<cjwatson> I mentioned to bdmurray that he didn't need to give a report this week, of course
<bdmurray> mdz: thanks
<mdz> seb128,pitti,Keybuk,mvo,doko,Mithrandir,sfllaw,Riddell,iwj,BenC: ping
<Riddell> hi all
<iwj> Hello.
<kwwii> Riddell mentioned that there was a meeting, and I thought i would pop by even though I really don't have much to say (yet)
<kylem> mdz, benc is en route to london
<mdz> kylem: ah, yes
<doko> pong
* ogra is here
<sfllaw> mdz: Hello.
<mdz> pitti is on holiday iirc
<cjwatson> yes
<tkamppeter> mdz, pong
<dholbach> mvo too
* cjwatson checks the calendar
<mdz> that leaves seb128 and Mithrandir
<cjwatson> all three of them
<mdz> cjwatson: three of whom?
<cjwatson> calendars
<cjwatson> canonicaladmin.com, wiki.c.c, google
<mdz> ah
<mdz> ok, time to get started
<mdz> dholbach: would you start us off?
<dholbach> Done
<dholbach>  * bug triage
<dholbach>  * bughelper action
<dholbach>  * bughelper meeting
<dholbach>  * art builder fixes
<dholbach> 
<dholbach> Todo:
<dholbach>  * GNOME 2.18.0
<dholbach>  * distro sprint
<dholbach>  * improve art builder
<dholbach>  * bug triage
<dholbach> 
<mdz> I've added a bughelper agenda item for the sprint
<mdz> it would be good to familiarize more folks with it
<dholbach> ahh nice
<Riddell> dholbach: is that the fin;al gnome 2.18?
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper/Dev/Meetings - for those of you who didn't make it to the meeting
<cjwatson> it has been saving a substantial amount of my time, so definitely
<mdz> dholbach: 2.18.0 already?
<Mithrandir> pong
<cjwatson> http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointSeventeen
<dholbach> blush
<dholbach> of course not
<dholbach> 2.17.90
<dholbach> lalala
<ogra> g-p-m is still behind upstream :(
<cjwatson> beta 1 is tomorrow
<mdz> :-)
<cjwatson> er, tarballs
<mdz> dholbach: ok, thanks
<dholbach> (and also done: worked with art people on documentation and examples packages)
<mdz> tkamppeter: next?
<dholbach> he's editing the wiki :)
<cjwatson> hi seb
<seb128> hi
<mdz> dholbach: also added artwork process to the agenda
<seb128> sorry I'm late
<tkamppeter> yes, I will paste it in ...
<dholbach> mdz: alright
<mdz> tkamppeter: if you are not ready yet, we can come back to you later
<tkamppeter> Done
<tkamppeter>  * Documentation correction on new printer driver package SpliX (Samsung laser printers)
<tkamppeter>  * Packaged and submitted printer drivers: epsonepl (Epson EPL "L" series, bug #34647), m2300w (Minolta magicolor W series), pxljr (Vast quality improvement for HP Color LaserJet 35xx/36xx)
<tkamppeter>  * Updated foo2zjs printer driver package: Now there is also support for the HP LaserJet M1005 MFP, Konica Minolta magicolor 2490MF and 2530 DL
<tkamppeter>  * Updated foomatic-db: Marked more drivers obsolete, removed Foomatic data which already comes with driver packages, so less occurences of the problem described in bug #59324
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 34647 in foomatic-db "ijs_server_epsonepl not found" [Medium,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/34647
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 59324 in foomatic-db "Cups filters are not bundled with Ubuntu altough the PPD are present" [Medium,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/59324
<tkamppeter>  * Updated gs-esp: Replace static binary by one using the libgs-esp library, saving 4.7 MB on installed system, package splitting to allow installation on X-less server
<tkamppeter>  * Answered to bug reports
<tkamppeter> To do
<tkamppeter>  * Prepare Ubuntu for new FHS standard for printer driver and PPD file directories, to prepare for installation of distribution-independent driver packages (LSB 3.2). See http://lists.freestandards.org/pipermail/printing-architecture/2006/001512.html
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: have you been catching up on those extra hours as agreed? I don't have e-mail about when you were doing that
<tkamppeter> Yes, I think at least a part of the extra hours I ave done with my last actions.
<cjwatson> ok, please do let me know which days were involved though, as requested earlier - it's difficult to keep track otherwise
<tkamppeter> OK.
<mdz> tkamppeter: yes, please sync up with colin after the meeting
<mdz> tkamppeter: thank you
<cjwatson> thanks
<mdz> seb128: next
<seb128> Done:
<seb128>  bug triage, bug triage, bug triage
<seb128>  compiz update
<seb128>  bunch of GNOME updates
<seb128>  easy-codec-installation: gstreamer part done (snapshots from CVS uploaded, plugin packages updates to use the new dh_gstscancodecs, libgimme-codec uploaded and accepted, new totem has code to use libgimme-codec)
<mdz> seb128: and dholbach already told us about GNOME 2.18.0 next week ;-)
<seb128>  tracked font bug from customer
<seb128> .
<seb128> Next week:
<seb128>  Distro Team Sprint
<seb128>  GNOME 2.17.90
<seb128> oh, dholbach rolling GNOME 2.18.0? ;)
<seb128> interesting :p
<cjwatson> seb128: how much is left from easy-codec-installation?
<iwj> seb128: easy-codec-installation> So what's left ?  Can we test/demo now ?
<mdz> he just wanted to see if we were paying attention to his update
<dholbach> mdz: you always think the best of me :-)
<seb128> cjwatson: libgimme-codec only display a message at the moment
<seb128> I've to check if gnome-app-install is ready with iwj or mvo
<iwj> seb128: Yep.
<Mithrandir> the libgimme-codec binaries need to be accepted as well, they're not yet.
<seb128> and make libgimme-codec call it
<iwj> Although it hasn't really been tested in-situ.
<seb128> "not much" left
<iwj> I suggest turning it on ASAP so we can debug it together at the sprint.
<mdz> iwj: agreed
<seb128> iwj: will do that tomorrow
<iwj> Excellent, Friday breakage :-).
<seb128> ;)
<seb128> friday before travelling
<seb128> that's better than friday :p
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: they are now
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: oh, ok.  Goodie.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks seb128
<mdz> ogra: next?
<ogra> * last week:
<ogra>  - ltsp-manager -> python-ltsp (backend class) nearly done
<ogra>  - more edubuntu-network-auth-server work
<ogra>  - edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound waits for pulse promotion and libasound2-plugins split
<ogra>  - some edulinux server preparations
<ogra> * next week:
<ogra>  - finish ltsp-manager spec (python-ltsp and gui)
<ogra>  - finish edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound
<ogra>  - sprint: edubuntu-on-two-cds, edubuntu-network-auth-server, edubuntu-network-auth-client
<ogra> * approved specs:
<ogra>  - ltsp-fat-clients -no further work
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-server - slow progress
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-client - not started
<ogra>  - edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound - ltsp side implemented, alsa plugins missing
<ogra>  - ltsp-management-gui - good progess on python modules
<ogra>  - student-control-panel-upgrade - front/backend split done by cbx33
<ogra>  - edubuntu-on-two-cds - not started (planned for the sprint)
<ogra>  - ltsp-persistent-home - ... sbalneav (planned to talk to pitti)
<mdz> ogra: feedback from herd 2?
<ogra> not much ... i must admit i wasnt around very constant the last 7 days
<ogra> sbalneav is just installing it afaik
<mdz> ogra: have you been following the testing on the forums that heno arranged?
<ogra> apart from that i was the only tester
<heno> there have been some volunteers for edubuntu
<ogra> yes, but there wasnt much for herd2 yet ... i expect more with herd3, some ppl expressed interest
<cbx33> sorry ogra, i will be installing next....herd3
<mdz> ogra: ok, there are at least some threads about edubuntu
<cjwatson> you probably want to upgrade ubiquity if you're testing the herd2 live CD anyway
<ogra> cbx33, its fine, just go on with SCP
<heno> some people said they are happy to test any flavour and we should spread those out
<cjwatson> there was an embarrassing little bug that broke it if you had any unpartitioned space on the disk
<cbx33> ogra I kinda need it for the book ;)
<mdz> ogra: checking that forum should be a regular part of each milestone, to get more feedback
<cbx33> am emailing you abotu that now :p
<mdz> ogra: do you have an account already?
<ogra> there is a big carnival party in essen next month, they want to test edubuntu teher
<ogra> mdz, indeed
<ogra> (the party is driven by the german LoCo)
<mdz> ogra: is that nearby?  will you be there?
<ogra> sadly its quite a ride and i'll be in italy by the end of the month as well ... not sure yet, but juliux is there
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks ogra
<ogra> he's as good as me in promoting edubntu
<mdz> Mithrandir: next?
<Mithrandir> network-roaming: gnome network-manager bits done, waiting for knetworkmanager
<Mithrandir> changelog-closes-bugs: to be done at sprint
<Mithrandir> grub2: given over/to be given over to iwj at the sprint
<Mithrandir> misc: lots of archive admin: source NEW is under control, SRUs need a bit more time, working on getting a better process for universe SRUs with the MOTUs
<Mithrandir> next week: sprint
<mdz> Mithrandir: seeded network-manager?
<Mithrandir> mdz: not yet.
<mdz> Mithrandir: what remains before that can be done?
<Riddell> Mithrandir: knetworkmanager is in
<Mithrandir> Riddell: ok, good.
<Mithrandir> nothing, then
<mdz> Mithrandir: tomorrow is breakage day ;-)
<Mithrandir> hooray!
<Mithrandir> I'll do it tomorrow morning, then
<mdz> Mithrandir: any notable issues with herd 2 which we can aim to improve next time?
<Mithrandir> we need another colin to maintain ubiquity since it seems there are a bunch of problems there. :-(
<mdz> cjwatson: do you concur?
<cjwatson> I'd love another me for all kinds of reasons
<mdz> cjwatson: we can get that ball rolling very quickly if necessary
<mdz> well, not another you, but someone for ubiquity
<Mithrandir> apart from that, it was a decent snapshot, herd 3 is going to be fun, I suspect.
<cjwatson> I want to continue working on ubiquity, but I cannot disagree that another pair of hands would be a great help
<mdz> cjwatson: please add a note to the sprint agenda to discuss it in person
<cjwatson> ok
<mdz> Mithrandir: thanks
<mdz> doko: next
<doko> this week:
<doko>  - update to python 2.5; all packages converted/updated/new upstreams
<doko>    and built for main, to a large part for universe as well.
<doko>    python2.4 will be kept in main for zope2.x and zope3.
<doko>  - use hunspell instead of myspell in main (OOo, firefox).
<doko>  - other: OOo updates, looking at the fc gcj backport, eclipse
<doko>    linux-distro meeting, printing packages reviews, twisted updates,
<doko>    sun-java updates.
<doko>  - will be offline tomorrow (meet a python upstream guy in Potsdam
<doko>    for a packaging/2.5 chat).
<doko> next week:
<doko>  - distro sprint
<cjwatson> mdz: done
<mdz> doko: python2.5 seemed to go smoothly. so the -central/-support infrastructure is working well?
<cjwatson> doko: tomorrow morning, yes? as agreed earlier
<doko> mdz: yes, most problems were hardcoded versions in debian/* and 64bit fixes
<doko> cjwatson: yes
<doko> will be back around lunch
<mdz> doko: good to hear
<mdz> doko: does the hunspell change allow us to drop anything from the CD or default install?
<mdz> (or language-support)
<cjwatson> I've suggested that the next priority for feisty-python-roadmap is debug builds
<cjwatson> though that's not as straightforward as it might first appear
<doko> yes, libmyspell*; but not yet from main (the dictionaries b-d on libmyspell-dev)
<mdz> excellent
<doko> cjwatson: yes, that's one thing I have in mind for tomorrow's talk
<mdz> doko: let pitti know so that he can update -support
<cjwatson> doko: right
<doko> mdz: -support update?
<mdz> doko: language-support-en depends on myspell dictionaries
<mdz> shouldn't that be changed?
<doko> mdz: no, hunspell is the next version of myspell; the dictionaries do have the same format
<mdz> oh, hunspell uses myspell dictionaries
<mdz> ok
<mdz> doko: thanks
<mdz> iwj: next
<iwj> automated-testing-deployment: The meat of the new code is written and needs testing.  Currently blocked on the Xen in feisty.
<iwj> gnome-app-install-codecs: The g-a-i part is now deployed (thanks mvo).  AIUI seb is working on the higher layers, and then we can test it.  This tangle will probably need debugging and we should do that at the sprint.
<iwj> winmodem-support: Had a good conversation with mjg59 after last week's meeting; no change since then.  I need to acquire an AMR (ac97-based) modem card I think.
<iwj> consistent-login-screen: No progress recently.  However I have been invited by mdz to a conference call on the 30th of January about xgl, compiz, and consistent-login-screen.
<iwj> also done: gs-esp crash bug (manifested on sparc) for fabbione.  I wish the upstream gs zoo would hurry up and get themselves re-unified.
<iwj> also done: started writing down a spec for dpkg triggers; this will fix various O(n^2) performance problems in upgrades, but we have to discuss and agree with Debian so this should start now rather than doing the design work at the feisty+1 UDS.
<cjwatson> triggers++
<mdz> iwj: what's the issue with Xen?
<iwj> Xen> Well, two things: one is that the xen-3.0-utils are uninstallable due to a problem with libvncserver-dev.
<iwj> I think I've managed to unblock that now.
<iwj> And the other is that the kernel and new hypervisor are still in progress AIUI.
<doko> iwj: do we keep gs-esp 8.15 for feisty?
<mdz> can it not be deployed on an Edgy host?
<tkamppeter> iwj, Mike Sweet has already set up a roadmap about the unification of the GhostScripts, several weeks ago.
<iwj> doko: I'm tempted to reprioritise the alternatives to make the default be gs-gpl.
<iwj> And keep gs-esp for the moment.
<tkamppeter> He wants to close ESP with a last bugfix release 8.15.4 and then he wants to start merging on his Subversion repository.
<iwj> tkamppeter: Oh, good.  Do you have some references for that ?  It would be very nice.
<iwj> tkamppeter: Excellent.
<cjwatson> iwj: kernel> unlikely to reach 2.6.20 thoug
<cjwatson> h
<mdz> sounds like we should stay with -esp for feisty and plan to switch after
<doko> tkamppeter: will you make the gs/gs-x11 split for gs-gpl as well?
<tkamppeter> The upstream GS folks have already given write access to me and to mike.
<iwj> mdz: we have gs-esp 8.15 but gs-gpl 8.54, so it's not clear that sticking with gs-esp as default is the right thing now.
<tkamppeter> Unfortunately, we talked about that only in private mail, so there is nothing on the web about that.
<iwj> tkamppeter: Aha.
<mdz> iwj: but there are many changes in gs-esp relative to -gpl which would be lost, no?
<iwj> mdz: Well, the same changes are often pushed into both trees, generally with the gs-gpl getting them after gs-afpl.
<tkamppeter> If you simply use the current GPL GhostScript as default, you will loose a lot of the built-in printer drivers, or you do a patch nightmare as distros did formerly.
<iwj> And (cough) not all of the gs-esp changes are always entirely correct.
<iwj> tkamppeter: OK.  I'll take your advice.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> iwj: thanks
<mdz> kylem: next
<kylem> Done:
<kylem>   * dapper-proposed security updates uploaded
<kylem>   * Security updates for dapper
<kylem>   * Investigated sparc64-ssl-accelerator
<kylem> In Progress:
<kylem>   * Trying to play catch-up with my bugs folder
<kylem>   * More Security updates for edgy & dapper
<kylem>   * MODULE_FIRMWARE annotations for feisty
<kylem>   * Cataloguing Intel hardware
<kylem>   * Sorting out necessities for FeistySprint
<kylem> Todo:
<kylem>   * Talk to Dave about Niagara MAU
<kylem>   * Find fix for mpt fusion RAID devices for dapper
<doko> kylem: please fix the atheros driver for the sprint ;)
<kylem> doko, should be in the lrm upload ben will do tomorrow.
<mdz> kylem: how are kernel bugs being handled at the moment?
<iwj> mdz: automated-testing-deployment, edgy> If there's not a working xen in feisty by after the sprint then yes, I'll do that.
<mdz> kylem: are bugs reported against 2.6.17 being rechecked with 2.6.20?
<mdz> kylem: is there a list of kernel regressions from edgy to current feisty?
<kylem> mdz, mostly yes, i mostly just poll through the list of dapper/edgy bugs a few times a day.
<mdz> kylem: how is it done? do you add a linux-source-2.6.20 task to the bug and ask the reporter to test?
<kylem> mdz, not that i'm aware of, ben's mostly had me focusing on looking after dapper/edgy.
<mdz> kylem: it's a rather long list and we ought to be rigorous about tracking progress across kernel versions
<kylem> mdz, most of the bugs have already had the -2.6.20 (or .19 in most cases) added, so i just follow up.
<kylem> yeah, i have a bookmarks folder high priority bugs (mostly hw feature regressions)
<kylem> i've been thinking using a wiki page on wiki.c.c for tracking them instead.
<kylem> esp when they come from support
<mdz> kylem: either tags or milestone targets would be better than a wiki page
<mdz> kylem: maybe a good subject for discussion at the sprint with BjornT, how best to track those
<dholbach> kylem: if you have an idea, how automated searches (bughelper) might fit in there, let's talk about that
<kylem> mdz, ok. yeah, definitely something we should discuss, there's *a lot* of bugs, it's extremely difficult to stay on top of eerything.
<mdz> kylem: ok, thanks
<kylem> dholbach, ok
<mdz> fabbione: next
<fabbione> Done:
<fabbione> * -support/-certification: tracked bunch of bugs around.
<fabbione> * sparc64-64-bit-apps: fixed glibc sparc64 libpthread linking moved to -updates.
<fabbione> * tracked X bugs with seb and simon
<fabbione> * sparc64-niagara-ssl-accel: delegation in progress.
<fabbione> * integrity-check: to be delegated.
<fabbione> Todo:
<fabbione> * Oslo
<mdz> fabbione: is there a tag where I can see the bugs from certification?
<fabbione> (i just got 3 more bugs from certification to look at)
<fabbione> mdz: i gave you the url to the team.. we subscribe the team to all bugs
<fabbione> i don't think we are using a specific tag for them
<mdz> fabbione: I overlooked the URL, I see it now, thanks
<Mithrandir> but you also mark all of the bugs private so they're useless for me as an RM.
<fabbione> mdz: no problem
<mdz> fabbione: only 3 bugs there currently
<fabbione> Mithrandir: we do subscribe people that need to know
<jbailey> Mithrandir: The bugs need to be private as they might contain customer data.
<fabbione> mdz: yes.. opened 10/20 minutes ago.. still to look at them
<cjwatson> if they're high priority, it's appropriate for the RM to be aware of them, I think
<jbailey> I'm not fussed about people within Canonical. =)
<mdz> fabbione: they should only be private if they do/will contain customer data
<mdz> certification bugs especially should not be private
<Mithrandir> jbailey: I'm just pointing out that private bugs which I don't have access to will not show up on my radar and therefore won't be considered when doing release management.
<sfllaw> mdz: What about pre-release hardware?
<fabbione> mdz: certification hw is not all public
<fabbione> mdz: but i agree that we can make some of them open
<sfllaw> jbailey: Are there NDAs involved with certification?
<mdz> sfllaw: if the code is public, then surely the bugs can be as well
<fabbione> mdz: not if found on some hw...
<Mithrandir> I also think that on principle, we should try to make all bugs public.  Of course not those containing confidential customer data, but it's often trivial to anonymise the data anyway.
<jbailey> sfllaw: I don't know.  All that's handled before the boxes get here.  I'd be surprised if there wasn't, though.
<mdz> I'm not aware of any hardware where it needs to be a secret that we have it
<jbailey> sfllaw: Best to refer the question to Maria.
<kylem> it's going to come up in the future
<sfllaw> mdz: Wasn't that whole SFO thing hush-hush?  I know we were told to keep quiet about it in Montreal.
<kylem> but we should probably discuss that seperately
<mdz> sfllaw: that's a customer matter.
<fabbione> exaclty
<sfllaw> kylem: Agreed.
<fabbione> let's discuss about it offline
<Mithrandir> put it on the Oslo agenda?
<mdz> sfllaw: if Ubuntu fails to install on a Dell PC in the certification lab, that bug needs to be public.
<fabbione> Mithrandir, cjwatson; one of my tasks is to keep you informed on these bugs and their status.. so don't worry too much
<fabbione> Mithrandir: good idea
<mdz> the people with the answers we need won't be there
<mdz> I'll follow up on this
<cjwatson> fabbione: this is pointing out a flaw in the existing process, not worrying
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I need to have them show up on my radar.  Having you tell me about them in any way which is not malone means it does not show up on my radar.  I can't keep lists of bugs in different places.
<cjwatson> please take it as such
<mdz> jbailey: you, Maria, Marc, Fabio...anyone else who should be in that conversation?
<mdz> fabbione: thanks for the update
<mdz> sfllaw: next
<fabbione> cjwatson: yes.. i do understand what you mean.. it was not to tear apart RM request.. but to talk about it next week
<sfllaw> Done
<sfllaw>  * Interns have started
<sfllaw>  * Hug Day
<sfllaw>  * SRUs: tzdata, glibc
<sfllaw> To do
<sfllaw>  * Assign some work to interns
<sfllaw>  * Talk about ISO testing with lifeless in Oslo
<sfllaw>  * Talk about support escalation with fabionne
<sfllaw>  * SRU: gnome-vfs2, gnome-system-tools
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw> Bug stats:
<sfllaw>  * Open (20919) +48 over last week
<sfllaw>  * Critical (23) +3 over last week
<sfllaw>  * Unconfirmed (10581) -50 over last week
<sfllaw>  * Unassigned (15888) +78 over last week
<sfllaw>  * All bugs ever reported (71790) +1290 over last week
<seb128> 1290 bugs a week, utch
<cjwatson> whoa, I assume that's the result of herd 2
<cjwatson> but ouch
<sfllaw> I have a funny twitch in my shoulder now.  :)
<mdz> now seems like a good time to introduce bdmurray :-)
<dholbach> hello bdmurray - please save us! :-)
<Riddell> hi bdmurray
<ogra> hi bdmurray
<sfllaw> bdmurray: Good thing you're on Ubuntu QA.
<sfllaw> bdmurray: Welcome again.
* sfllaw hugs bdmurray.
<mdz> Brian is joining the team at Canonical to help us handle bugs
<bdmurray> Thanks, I'm glad there isn't any pressure.
<seb128> Rock on!
<seb128> bdmurray: welcome on board ;)
<kylem> awesome! welcome bdmurray!
<dholbach> bdmurray: welcome! :-)
<cjwatson> bdmurray: good to have you on board
<mdz> he will be at the sprint next week for introductions and training
<mdz> he reports to Colin
<mdz> and while we're on the subject, I bring your attention to kwwii as well
* ogra waves to kwwii 
<Riddell> kwwii of bling
<mdz> who is joining Scott's team to take responsibility for artwork
<mdz> he'll also be at the sprint, though many of you already know him
<sfllaw> kwwii: Welcome back!
<fabbione> kwwii: sushi dude!
<kylem> welcome!
<ogra> kwwii, does that mean for edubuntu and and ubuntu as well ?
<kwwii> see lot's of you (again) soon
<kwwii> ogra: yeah, I guess so, although I am sure I'll find out more soon
<ogra> great
<seb128> I knew he was a GNOME dude :p
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I installed gnome twice today
<ogra> yeah, we all knew it
<Mithrandir> kwwii: does this mean I can whine at you about not having any updated artwork yet? :-)  FF is getting closer.
<mdz> ok, group hugs can wait until next week.  time to move on
<mdz> sfllaw: thanks
<mdz> Riddell: next
<Riddell> done: most of KDE 3.5.6 packaged, waiting on upstream release to upload
<Riddell>       network-roaming: knetworkmanager patched for static config
<Riddell>       kubuntu-update-manager: UI done, but blocked on getting embedded konsole to work with forkpty, mvo work on that looking promising
<Riddell>       kubuntu-feisty-adept-changes: changes needed for update-manager done but needs testing, thanks to praetor), main/universe notification in (thanks to manchicken)
<Riddell> todo:
<Riddell>       finish KDE 3.5.6
<Riddell>       kubuntu-update-manager main target for oslo
<mdz> Riddell: you have a few other specs on your list
<mdz> kubuntu-feisty-kde4-plan and kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity are high priority
<Riddell> kde4 plan is waiting on the next KDE 4 release, it's expected in january but it's not timetabled
<Riddell> ubiquity is waiting to see what will be done in gtk side, partitioner, migration assitant, slideshow
<cjwatson> kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity has made decent progress
<cjwatson> there's trivial stuff there that could be done in advance of gtk though
<cjwatson> hmm, although not really all that much of importance, on a quick review
<cjwatson> kwwii: we need to talk next week about ubiquity-slideshow
<kwwii> cjwatson: great
<mdz> Riddell: ok, plenty of opportunity to talk about it at the sprint
<mdz> Riddell: thanks
<mdz> heno: next
<heno> * bughelper - ducumentation and feature brainstorming
<heno> * ubiquity triage - not much this week
<heno> * accessibility - gnome-mag got a few upgrades (thanks Daniel!), new espeak and gnome-speech driver released upstream, worked on Karlsruhe presentation
<heno> * ISO testing forum - Testing hs continued in the forums after Herd 2. Trying to bring some more structure to it.
<heno> * launchpad - Steve requested that we try using the beta UI and give feedback
<mdz> heno: not much ubiquity because there weren't many reports, or because you were working on other things?
<mdz> if the former, that'd be great news given herd 2
<cjwatson> there were quite a few, but practically every new one was the partitioner bug I mentioned
<cjwatson> I've been hoovering up most of those with the aid of bughelper
<heno> because I was working on other things and cjwatson took all the low hanging fruit :)
<heno> so I have to raise my game
<cjwatson> I needed to review most of those anyway to ensure that I wasn't missing some other property of that bug
<mdz> sounds good
<heno> the forum testers did actually run into them quite often
<cjwatson> about the only other thing was that the popcon checkbox doesn't actually work
<mdz> heno: I added an agenda item for the sprint to talk about how to crunch the forum feedback and filter bugs into launchpad, etc.
<heno> mdz: sounds good
<mdz> heno: thanks
<heno> I'm reading up on text data mining now :)
<mdz> heno: maybe send something to distro-team about beta and how we can/should use it
<mdz> cjwatson: you're up, and then we're done
<heno> bughelper you mean?
<cjwatson> setup-console-under-usplash: Investigated kernel font setting code and concluded that the situation is hopeless as far as getting this to work reliably under X/usplash is concerned. Backed out that part of the previous changes. I've scheduled an item for the sprint to thrash out another idea, namely doing it in the initramfs.
<mdz> heno: beta
<cjwatson> intel-mac-support: Picked up hardware and started work. Making fairly decent progress. Almost ready to test partitioner/bootloader changes and beat on Ubiquity. Need to fix mouseemu, which seems to just block all mouse input.
<cjwatson> hoping to find some time somewhere at the sprint to go through the lagging ubiquity work
<mdz> heno: is there anything other than "use it"?  under what circumstances?  any caveats?
<cjwatson> aside from that, promising recruitment progress on a couple of fronts
<mdz> indeed
<mdz> cjwatson: anything else?
<cjwatson> that's it
<mdz> ok, that's a wrap
<iwj> Only 6 minutes over.  Well done everyone :-).
<doko> ohh, anybody interested in a cocktail session at the sprint?
<mdz> look for sprint agenda updates over the next few days
<mdz> and I'll see you next week
<kwwii> see everyone soon
<iwj> doko: Oooh, could do.
<kylem> cheers.
<dholbach> doko:  :-)
<sfllaw> Ta.
<iwj> But I'm off to the pub now so talk about it some other time :-).
<iwj> Goodnight everyone.
<dholbach> night everybody
<fabbione> doko: you bet.. but you get to pay for it :P
<fabbione> night guys
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-19
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 20 Jan 09:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 06:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu
<baba-andrea> hi all
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-20
<Rinchen> @schedule denver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Denver: 20 Jan 08:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 05:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 13:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu
<Rinchen> hmpf.
<Rinchen> not in sync with fridge
<sid> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 20 Jan 10:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu
<Reichstag> $^ expression searchs for empty lines, \n only for line breaks in the same paragraph (Shift+Enter), but how to find paragraph breaks?
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<Ma1kel> 6mins
<somerville32> Hello Boys and Girls
<vinze> Started yet?
<somerville32> We'll be starting any minute now :)
<vinze> K great
* somerville32 just got home from a meeting @ work and needs to change into something more casual. :)
<lotusleaf> vinze: KDE is great ;P
<vinze> Yuk no :P
* somerville32 updates the Agenda last minute.
<fijam> join #xubuntu
<somerville32> Alrighty.
<somerville32> I guess can start now by introducing ourselves.
<vinze> OK
* somerville32 is Cody Somerville.
* vinze is Vincent Tunru
<gpocentek> hello
<somerville32> Hi
<gpocentek>  /me is g. pocentek :)
<vinze> Surprise :D
<gpocentek> somerville32: would you agree to lead this meeting?
* PuMpErNiCkLe is the audience
<somerville32> gpocentek, Sure. :)
<gpocentek> thanks
<somerville32> The agenda for this meeting is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<vinze> So we're with three?
<somerville32> We'll work through the items listed, discuss, make notes, and all that good stuff
<Jmak> Jmak: ok
<somerville32> We'll start from the bottom this time since we started at the top last time
<vinze> Keeping it fair ;)
<somerville32> Team Building - How can we help contributors to the Xubuntu project become Ubuntu members, devs, and core-devs? How can we build community? Prod ubuntu-qa/ubuntu-bugs and ubuntu-motu to host some classroom lectures to help educate individuals so that they can get involved with bug triage and packaging for Ubuntu/Xubuntu? Maybe team more senior contributors with people interested in getting involved (ie. mentorship)? Organize so
<somerville32> me sort of Xubuntu hug day? Brainstorm.
<vinze> Hug day.. That would be nice :P
<gpocentek> do we really need hug days?
<gpocentek> for Xubuntu that is
<gpocentek> there's not so many bugs open
<somerville32> gpocentek, I think we should tie in with the normal bug days
<somerville32> Maybe encourage Xubuntu users to take part
<gpocentek> somerville32: agreed
<vinze> Me too
<somerville32> There are lots of Xubuntu users who enjoy giving back to the project
<somerville32> I think making them aware of these opportunities would be a Good Thing.
<vinze> And how are we going to do that?
<vinze> I guess at least a message to the mailinglist
<vinze> Or perhaps that's already enough
<gpocentek> adding an item to the bug days wiki page/announces should not be too hard
<Ma1kel> or on the ubuntu forums?
<vinze> That too perhaps
<vinze> But I think most people willing to contribute will already be on xubuntu-devel don't you think so?
<somerville32> Furthermore, when you've got a whole bunch of people at these events you already know, I think it would make it more enjoyable and easier to get involved.
<somerville32> So it would be good for us to "make a presence".
<Ma1kel> vinze, there are more ways to contribute
<vinze> Ma1kel: yeah, but you can sign up for xubuntu-devel for all those things can't you?
<vinze> But of course, posting a message to the forums is not problem at all :D
<Ma1kel> true but there are people that dont know that the it exists
<Ma1kel> -the
<vinze> Also people that are looking to contribute?
<somerville32> ie. Johny and Timmy, both Xubuntu users who like to contribute to bug hug days, encourage there fellow Xubuntu user Jill to come help out. Jill agrees because she feels comfortable knowing that she'll have people she knows there to help her get started and to chat to at the same time.
<somerville32> Malkel: True.
<somerville32> So, how do we promote this to Xubuntu users without seeming like we're doing our own thing?
<vinze> Doing our own thing? You mean too complicated or something
<vinze> *?
<Ma1kel> Hmmm.
<somerville32> Well, we want to tie in with existing Ubuntu infrastructure and teams
<somerville32> We don't want to waste efforts re-inventing the wheel
<vinze> So we should make it accessible to Xubuntu users
<somerville32> Right
<Ma1kel> What would you like the existing infrastructure to do? Give a list.
<somerville32> But the question is "How do we do it most effectively?"
<vinze> Well, I have no experience with this so I have no idea :(
<somerville32> I think that we could use the forums, wiki, website, and the irc channel
<Ma1kel> Start an Xubuntu forum?
<vinze> I think of those the wiki and website are most important
<somerville32> Malkel: I don't think that is required.
<vinze> Me neither
<somerville32> Malkel: The main Ubuntu forums serve us rather nicely.
<somerville32> I think we need to spark the "by mouth" advertising.
<somerville32> We ourselves need to get excited by contributing to Xubuntu
<vinze> I think that would be best
<vinze> But I have no idea how
<somerville32> By getting excited ourselves, of course :)
<Ma1kel> Some contests?
<vinze> Yeah I get that :P
<somerville32> If people see how we're contributing and that we're excited
<Ma1kel> For artwork or something?
<vinze> But how to get involved
<TheSheep> start talking about it on channels -- saying what bugs you triage, asking about details
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> But if you have no experience programming in anything higher than PHP?
<somerville32> vinze: You don't need to know how to program to get involved.
<TheSheep> it will also teach users some rules on taking care of bugs
<Ma1kel> Artwork and translation, spreading the word?
<somerville32> Right
<somerville32> There are TONS of stuff listed on http://xubuntu.org/devel
<TheSheep> assisting with reporting bugs is important too
<somerville32> Yup
<somerville32> 1. Get excited about contributing Xubuntu
<TheSheep> like, you spent some time with the user to see what's wrong, and in the end yuo say "ok, now report this bug" :)
<vinze> Translation is also something: isn't that more upstream work? I've been translating Xfce but not in Launchpad
<somerville32> 2. Start talking about how we contribute to Xubuntu and how other people can too
<Ma1kel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XubuntuArtwork ?
<somerville32> Malkel, vinze: In your opinions, how can we make it easier for people to get involved?
<somerville32> Ma1kel, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork <-- Xubuntu artwork page.
<somerville32> gpocentek, Any insight?
<Ma1kel> Start own forum, announce things and contests
<vinze> There's an unofficial Xubuntu forum that's not very popular
<Ma1kel> link to it from main site and make it offical?
<TheSheep> an empty forum is hardly encouraging
<Ma1kel> a full forum is
<vinze> But linking to it won't suddenly make it popular
<somerville32> Whats wrong with the current Ubuntu forums?
<Ma1kel> it is too much ofcused on Ubuntu
<somerville32> Ma1kel, There are tons of Xubuntu users on the Ubuntu forums though
<Ma1kel> yes
<gpocentek> (phonecall, sorry)
<vinze> Well, shall we just continue on "Team Building"?
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> I'd like to report that the new xubuntu-users mailing list is a huge success.
<vinze> Indeed
<vinze> And let's hope it'll be even more so when Feisty is released
<somerville32> Since it's conception the other week, we've had 81 individuals subscribe
<vinze> How many did we have for xubuntu-devel?
* somerville32 has no idea.
<vinze> Too bad
<somerville32> So
<vinze> Conclusion: we should do more mouth-to-mouthing or whatever-it's-called
<somerville32> As to getting people involved, I'll see about poking ubuntu-qa and ubuntu-motu to hold some classroom lectures
<vinze> Great
<somerville32> and then I'll announce it on the mailing list
<somerville32> Then it'll be up to all of us to spread the word to our fellow Xubuntu users
<vinze> Perhaps we should make clearer exactly *what* is high priority at the moment
<somerville32> vinze: High priority out of what?
<vinze> Of jobs to be done of Xubuntu
<TheSheep> perhaps we should decide what is there to do first :)
<somerville32> hehe
<vinze> That's what I mean ;)
<somerville32> Well, http://xubuntu.org/devel has a rather comprehensive list
<somerville32> And they're all important
<vinze> But all of "general things to do"
<somerville32> Well, one thing that comes to mind is Documentation
<vinze> Perhaps if we focus on a specific thing we can get more things done?
<vinze> For example
<somerville32> Documentation needs a lot of work
<vinze> Then we could say "is someone willing to write some documentation on how this or that app works"?
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Interesting idea
<vinze> I think that produce more
<somerville32> Well, we can't waste too much time holding people's hands either. Sometimes people need to take initiative to ask.
<somerville32> However, I think making up a nice todo list for the different teams would be a Good Idea.
<vinze> Yeah I think so too
<somerville32> We can also see about getting some of the more senior contributors to help out the ones showing interest
<vinze> But what my problem with documentation is is that you can't just do some documentation and send it somewhere, you have to makes patches or whatnot
<somerville32> vinze: Making patches is easy though :)
<vinze> Well, perhaps a wiki page or something on how to?
<vinze> Because I don't know how, even if it is very easy
<somerville32> There already is a wiki page.
<vinze> OK, where?
<somerville32> Maybe we can work on linking some of those documents from the Xubuntu wiki pages
<vinze> Yeah and on xubuntu.org/devel
<vinze> To those page
<vinze> *pages
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Good idea
<somerville32> Any other points for Team Building?
<vinze> Nope
<vinze> Oh wait, could you tell me the wiki page, then I'll bookmark it :D
<vinze> And perhaps I can start linking after I finish my essays ;)
<somerville32> ok
<somerville32> one sec
<somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<vinze> K thanks
<somerville32> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute
<somerville32> So I guess we can move onto the next topic for today
<somerville32> Artwork
<somerville32> Jmak, :)
<vinze> Yeah
<vinze> *Very controversial* ;)
<somerville32> Well, certainly opinionated for sure
<Jmak> I am here
<somerville32> Jmak: Could you give us an update on the artwork? :)
<TheSheep> Jmak: I wanted to tell you about the icon theme cache...
<Jmak> We need to tackle the icons
<Jmak> Ok
<Jmak> TheSheep: Whats that
<TheSheep> Jmak: basically, if you want to play with icons in some theme, remove the icon-theme.cache file from it first, or you won't see the changes
<TheSheep> Jmak: I'm not sure how you regenerate that cache though
<TheSheep> Jmak: it was something I stumbled upon when trying to fix the sound control icon in breezy
<Jmak> Thanks for the tip
<fijam> If I could add something to the documentation discussion... just a quick remark, may I?
<vinze> Always :D
<somerville32> Sure :)
<fijam> I think that special attention should be focused on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<Jmak> But regarding the icons Jari told me that there will be major changes in feisty soon, so lets wait till those changes will materialize
<fijam> as we don't want xubuntu to fall behind, do we?
<vinze> fijam: Indeed
<vinze> Jmak: Sure
<Ma1kel> "The DocumentationTeam is currently working on developing new and improving existing documentation for the release of Ubuntu 6.10 (EdgyEft) in October 2006."
<somerville32> fijam, Thats the only documentation to focus on right now - the Desktop Guide and the wiki.
<somerville32> And we're already way way way behind
<somerville32> We need more contributors
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Jan 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<vinze> I'll see if I can do some catching up
<vinze> But I also have another project ;)
<somerville32> There is a specification on the wiki
<fijam> ok
<Jmak> Is evrybody happy with the tango icon theme?
<somerville32> fijam, vinze: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/DesktopGuide-feisty
<somerville32> Jmak: At this time, I enjoy the tango theme, yes.
<TheSheep> Jmak: I'm happy with it :)
<vinze> For now yes
<Jmak> In my view it is pretty dull
<vinze> But complete
<TheSheep> I prefer the term 'functional' :)
<somerville32> I think it is complete and professional looking
<vinze> Functional, whatever you wish :D
<TheSheep> vinze: I was thinking about the 'dull'
<vinze> Ah, right...
<somerville32> Jmak: Is anyone else contributing to the artwork besides yourself?
<vinze> "Dull" and "functional" are about equal to me ;)
<TheSheep> Jmak: do you have a "big picture" for the theme?
<Jmak> What theme, the icon theme?
<TheSheep> Jmak: no, the whole theme of xubuntu
<TheSheep> Jmak: what direction to go?
<TheSheep> Jmak: should it look cheap or expensive, simple or comlex, cold or warm, etc.
<Ma1kel> more intresting looking, the normal theme is too dull, people like to change the theme immetdialy
<TheSheep> Ma1kel: that's good
<vinze> Ma1kel: The problem with that is that you'll get a theme that annoys some people
<Ma1kel> true
<vinze> That's the advantage of Clearlooks: it does not annoy, even if it is dull
<vinze> Or Tango or whatever
<somerville32> Personally, I prefer a professional appeal for default
<Ma1kel> Me too.
<vinze> Like Clearlooks?
<somerville32> Then people can make all the crazy customizations they want
<somerville32> But first impressions are important
<vinze> Yeah indeed
<TheSheep> I think that a defult theme has 2 functions:  be usable for when you don't have time to customize it, and look good for screenshots and marketing
<Jmak> My idea was to continue the glossy feel
<vinze> So we want to make a "decent" impression
<somerville32> And so we need to have a theme that appeals to the widest variety of users
<vinze> I liked the glossy feel
<Ma1kel> glossy feels are cool
<TheSheep> even cold
<TheSheep> nothing against glossy, of course
<somerville32> The glossy direction is good but we need to make sure not to over do it
<somerville32> We need to be tactful
<TheSheep> Jmak: sharp or soft?
<Jmak> I prefer simple
<Jmak> As opposed to the more flashy fedora artworks
<Ma1kel> maybe get some opinions from the forums? Get some artwork on the forums and ask people what they think about it? Could help getting people contribute.
<vinze> Ma1kel: Good idewa
<vinze> *idea
<somerville32> We can't just vote on small bits and pieces though
<somerville32> We need to see the overall picture
<TheSheep> I think that once working, there should be no opinions.
<vinze> Perhaps first produce something, then allow comments?
<TheSheep> 1. collect opinions, get the idea, 2. work, ignore feedback on irrelevant details, 3. present the (almost) finished product, repeat
<vinze> Agreed
<TheSheep> I was looking at the "start button" rant
<TheSheep> it's totally meaningless
<vinze> *hint*
<Ma1kel> WHERES MY START BUTTON
<Jmak> True, but in my view artworks are not like code everyone chips in and at the end we put it together.
<somerville32> Jmak: But what about that article you wrote?
<somerville32> In it you said that that model doesn't work
<TheSheep> Jmak: you're the director, you must not allow everyone to butt in :)
<Jmak> I like the button idea because from the usability point of view it make sense
<TheSheep> Jmak: stand by your decissions
<TheSheep> Jmak: btw, I think the button can be made as a gtk theme thing
<Jmak> With that I am not familiar
<Jmak> How do you mean gtk?
<vinze> So, artwork will just be produced, then accept comments and see what should be improved?
<somerville32> Jmak: Maybe you should encourage other people to get involved?
<Ma1kel> well, get some comments WHILE working on it, to help you model it
<TheSheep> vinze: you cannot tweak this kind of things much -- it's all interconnected and complete
<vinze> Ma1kel: But without starting discussions
<Jmak> Sure, anyone can do artworks
<vinze> TheSheep: What do you mean?
<Ma1kel> ^
<TheSheep> vinze: it's like telling Da Vinci to redo that smile
<somerville32> Jmak, Maybe you could spice up the artwork wiki pages on *how* to get involved?
<vinze> AH, like that
<Jmak> Ok. I will do that
<TheSheep> Jmak: for example, which icons need to be drawn
<fijam> that would be useful
<Jmak> For instance in the application menu we have at least 6 missing icons, not very professional
<TheSheep> Jmak: most of them are in tango, just miss the links
<somerville32> Jmak; You should file bugs and attach an icon and someone like gpocentek or myself can upload it.
<TheSheep> Jmak: same with other icon themes -- they'd work with xubntu fine, if not the missing links
<Jmak> Ok jary told me that there will be changes soon in feisty so I wait with the icons for the time being
<TheSheep> Jmak: so, what other things are there to do that can be distributed work?
<Jmak> I think no much unless someone wants to redo the entire desktop concept
<vinze> So on to the Documentation issue?
<TheSheep> Jmak: I made another blue murrina theme, based on the MurrinaHuman2, if you're interested
<Jmak> Sure
<Jmak> Make a wiki and upload the pieces
<somerville32> Btw
<somerville32> the Murrina theme engine was uploaded the other week to Universe
<Jmak> It sould be the default theme for feisty
<Jmak> It comes with a nice configurator that not even gnome has
<somerville32> Also, I'd like to see an improvement to the startup splash
<vinze> GTK themes are something that can be voted on IMHO
<kalikiana> The splash needs text :)
<Jmak> You mean the usplash?
<kalikiana> yep
<somerville32> Not the usplash
<somerville32> the login splash
<somerville32> After you authenticate
<kalikiana> oh
<somerville32> It is current the mouse in the wheel
<somerville32> Which is cool
<somerville32> but it just on a white background
<somerville32> Kind of blah
<kalikiana> What would you do about it?
<vinze> But perhaps it will get too slow...
<TheSheep> use the same background as gdm and backdrop
* somerville32 nods.
<gpocentek> somerville32: it's currently nothing
* kalikiana agrees
<somerville32> gpocentek, What is currently nothing?
<vinze> The splash
<Jmak> You are talkin about the logo?
<gpocentek> somerville32: there's no splash during Xfce startup
<somerville32> gpocentek, Since when?
<crimsun> (hi all, apologies for tardiness, was in another meeting)
<gpocentek> somerville32: since edgy IIRC
<gpocentek> hello crimsun
<somerville32> gpocentek, Well, then I must have carry over from Dapper
<gpocentek> somerville32: the splash slow down things on lowest machines, that's why we removed it
<somerville32> But it is possible to re-enable it?
<gpocentek> somerville32: yep, it's configured in your HOME I guess
<gpocentek> somerville32: sure
<TheSheep> I had a smart splashscreen setup some time ago -- it made a screenshot when logging out, and displayed it as the splash
<somerville32> I see a MCS module
<vinze> TheSheep: that's cool :D But annoying ;_
<TheSheep> vinze: it makes the system seem faster :)
<somerville32> Either way, there really isn't a good login splash available. So we should make one available.
<gpocentek> the running mouse *is* good
<TheSheep> somerville32: balous is pretty good if you put a nice picture in it
<vinze> TheSheep: Does it?
<somerville32> gpocentek, I like it too
<Jmak> I made some animation splash for dapper but jani said we need no splash
<vinze> TheSheep: Startup is already almost-instantly for me when I turn Beryl off
<somerville32> gpocentek, But I think it can be improved.
<TheSheep> vinze: before you grab the mouse, the splash screen will already disappear -- but you have additional several seconds of thinking what to do :)
<crimsun> Jmak: I tend to agree with Jani that a splash only serves really to "hide" the slowdown
<vinze> TheSheep: But won't the two seconds it takes now become four?
<TheSheep> vinze: no idea
<vinze> TheSheep: lol :P
<somerville32> Well, I'd love to see something done there
<somerville32> As for the usplash, I think it looks good except for the text.
<Jmak> somerville32: splash just make things more crowded
* somerville32 likes his login splash.
<TheSheep> maybe there is some theme we could use for making art for xubuntu -- sky? water? blue jewels?
<somerville32> Black rodents?
<Jmak> Listen, splash should be a branding image not a masterpeice. It si only the screen for a few seconds
<somerville32> Several minutes for me
<somerville32> lol
<Jmak> If it is to complex it confuses
<somerville32> I think he issue is that the text is too complex. It should be simpler and more tactful
<Jmak> What text?
<somerville32> "Xubuntu"
<somerville32> The logo looks great
<vinze> Sorry g2g
<Jmak> You mean in the login box
<fijam> see you, vinze
<vinze> Bye
<somerville32> Right now I'm talking about the usplash
<Jmak> Ok
<somerville32> :)
<somerville32> TheSheep: Water, I think
<TheSheep> somerville32: waves?
<TheSheep> somerville32: drops? like blubuntu?
<somerville32> Something tranquil?
<Jmak> Glossiness is part of the overall theme, that is how the usplash was conceived
<somerville32> Jmak: Right.
<somerville32> Glossyness isn't the issue
<Jmak> What then?
<somerville32> The text is the issue, I don't like how it looks. I think the distaste lies with the thick blue borders.
<Jmak> But you have to somehow separate off from the blach background
<jenda> ooh, xubuntu meeting... I'm sorry to interrupt with something so mundane, but I haven't got any response from the #xubuntu channels - I'll be printing about 1000 of Xubuntu case badges, and no one can tell me if they look good other than Xubuntu folks :)
<jenda> diy.devubuntu.com/xubuntu.png
<jenda> (please reply in -marketing not here)
<jenda> (and feel free to wait till after the meeting, of course)
<somerville32> Jmak: I agree.
<somerville32> Jmak: I'd like to see an alternate.
<somerville32> Anyhow, lets keep moving
<somerville32> We've already been here for awhile
<somerville32> and we have more stuff to cover
<somerville32> Any last comments?
<fijam> What I personanlly dislike about the usplash logo is that blue gradient descending into pitch-black. Maybe it could be made more... distinctive?
<Jmak> It is not good. the mouse overlaps the logo, the colors are off and the lines are jagged
<somerville32> So it is agreed the proposed usplash needs some more love?
<Jmak> What kind of change do you exactly want?
<somerville32> Personally, just the text
<somerville32> Anyhows
<Jmak> That's pretty vague
<somerville32> We need to move on
<somerville32> Jmak: We can discuss it more later.
<somerville32> Documentation - Documentation efforts need to be organized.
<somerville32> Is there anybody who would be interested in working on the desktopguide?
<Ma1kel> Wiki raids?
<somerville32> I wear a lot of hats so I can't devote the love that it needs.
<somerville32> Malkel: Not quite. There is a desktop guide that is shipped with Xubuntu - it is outdated and needs to be improved.
<somerville32> However, I'm sure we'll pull content from the wiki
<fijam> I could do some work on this. I am downloading the svn trunk right now
<somerville32> Awesome.
<somerville32> Can I put your name down as a volunteer?
* fijam is Jan Misiak
<somerville32> crimsun, gpocentek: Do you have any insight for the desktop guide and documentation for Xubuntu in general?
<somerville32> fijam, I have svn commit access
<somerville32> fijam, We'll get together soon and discuss documentation.
<fijam> you and Luzius Theoney, already read of it
<fijam> ok
<somerville32> Awesome.
<crimsun> somerville32: not without having read current doc
<somerville32> crimsun: You can see it at http://doc.ubuntu.com
<somerville32> We can discuss documentation more at the next meeting
<somerville32> Any last points?
<fijam> I've just scimmed through the styleguide
<fijam> ok
<gpocentek> somerville32: Xfce has a nice documentation, if it included in the desktop guide, or even linked
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> gpocentek, Good idea.
<fijam> However, there is no documentation for the 4.4 branch yet afaik
<gpocentek> it was a question actually (s/if/is) ;)
<somerville32> hehe
<somerville32> gpocentek, I'm sure we could borrow from it
<gpocentek> fijam: right
<fijam> and this influences a few things, especially the desktop manager, menu icons etc, so we might want to cover these issues on our own, at least the basics
<gpocentek> indeed
<gpocentek> Thunar doc is good, and is now included in the sources IIRC
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Alrighty.
<somerville32> Any last points?
<somerville32> Bug Triage - Whats the most effective way to triage Xubuntu related bugs? What procedures should our bug triage team follow? People to look after certain packages? (CodySomerville)
<somerville32> 1. How should we handle small feature requests?
<somerville32> ie. feature requests that don't deserve a specification
<crimsun> I've not been averse to Wishlist bugs filed against the appropriate source packages using LP
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> So just confirm them and mark them wishlist?
<crimsun> that's my general practice
<crimsun> if there's consensus that we should be doing otherwise, I'm happy to adhere
<somerville32> I think Jani recommends that too
<somerville32> and I'm ok with that
<somerville32> but I always thought it was a goal to try and close bugs
<gpocentek> so am I
<somerville32> Alright.
<somerville32> Any other points on bug triage?
<gpocentek> yep
* somerville32 listens.
<gpocentek> there's quite a lot of bugs reported against wrong packages or against no package at all
<gpocentek> I'd be nice to regularily find these bugs
<gpocentek> a simple search on LP using "Xfce" gives a lot of results
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Good point.
<somerville32> gpocentek, Do you have any ideas on how to improve the situation?
<gpocentek> if someone can take the time to search those bugs once a week (for instance), it shouldn't take a lot of time and would be really helpful
<gpocentek> I'm ready to take care about this
* somerville32 nods.
<gpocentek> the task would not be a full triaging, simply suscribing the xubuntu-team
<somerville32> Should we consider add the xubuntu-team as bug contacts for more packages?
<somerville32> *adding
<gpocentek> maybe more desktop apps
<gpocentek> I'm not even sure that gxine is on our list for instance
* somerville32 nods.
<crimsun> right, that's motumedia
<gpocentek> anything else about bugs?
* somerville32 doesn't think so.
<gpocentek> ok
<somerville32> So, last two topics for today
<somerville32> #
<somerville32> Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap - Discuss and develop a dev-roadmap for Xubuntu Feisty Fawn + review of previous dev-roadmaps.
<somerville32> #
<somerville32> Feisty Fawn - The goals for Feisty Fawn include adopting emerging desktop technology. What emerging desktop technology can the Xubuntu distribution adopt?
<gpocentek> next week goal: get Xfce 4.4 final in ;)
* somerville32 cheers.
<fijam> It hasn't been released yet, has it?
<gpocentek> it should released tomorrow on monday
<fijam> good!
<gpocentek> s/on/or
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> gpocentek, We do plan to get thunar-volman in, right?
<gpocentek> somerville32: yes
<somerville32> Enabled by default?
<gpocentek> somerville32: I guess :)
<vinze> Hey
<fijam> welcome back
<vinze> Thanks
<vinze> What're we discussing?
<somerville32> gpocentek, What do you think about adding default gtk shortcuts?
<gpocentek> somerville32: what kind of shortcuts?
<somerville32> ie. Documents, Videos, Pictures, etc.
<somerville32> Stuff like that
<somerville32> You see it in the file choicer and Thunar's left bar
<somerville32> It might pose translation issues
<gpocentek> yep
<somerville32> and it would require us to actually have the directories created
<somerville32> which would mean we would have to do that in /etc/skel/
<somerville32> and I don't think too many distros do that
<gpocentek> I don't really like the idea
<vinze> What idea?
<gpocentek> of modifying dirs/files in the user's HOME
<vinze> With what purpose?
* somerville32 agrees.
<somerville32> gpocentek, Is it possible to add more "shortcuts" in the top part of the left bar?
<somerville32> ie. Where the filesystem, home, etc. links are
<gpocentek> do we really need more links?
<gpocentek> (BTW this is an other discussion than feisty goals ;) )
<somerville32> We're discussing whats plausible, :P
<vinze> gpocentek: Is it "Emerging Desktop Technologies"?
<somerville32> And I think that a link to /media might be wise
<gpocentek> why not
<vinze> If the folders get names other than cdrom0
<vinze> Or usbdisk
<vinze> And usbdisk-1
<gpocentek> vinze: true
<vinze> Don't most devices have labels for that?
<vinze> But that would be more Thunar-specific I guess
<gpocentek> yes
<somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/Xubuntu-Wishlist <-- It is actually readable.
<somerville32> One thing that is mentioned is disabling case-sensitive sort in Thunar. Apparently it is in the Thunar config file but not the gui config tool.
<somerville32> Another item is Tracker
<fijam> Tracker - the search tool?
<somerville32> gpocentek, Have you had a chance to use kalikiana's search tool?
<vinze> Tracker sounds cool to me
<gpocentek> somerville32: yes
<gpocentek> I don't really like the UI
<gpocentek> and it's only a frontend to find, and slocate
<somerville32> Not only find and slocate
<gpocentek> a desktop search tool does more than that
<somerville32> It also supports tracker and beagle
<gpocentek> if there are installed
<vinze> Well if the UI is not that pleasant then it should not be used as front-end for tracker I guess...
<gpocentek> is tracker a command line tool (never used it)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Jan 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<gpocentek> ?
<somerville32> Yes
<gpocentek> ok
<gpocentek> it needs to be tested
<gpocentek> and packaged...
<somerville32> What needs to be packaged?
<vinze> Screenshots also show a GUI: http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/screenshots.html
<fijam> it looks promising
<gpocentek> somerville32: tracker
<vinze> http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/download.html
<somerville32> tracker is already packaged
<vinze> See my link :D
<gpocentek> somerville32: and available in debian or ubuntu ?
<somerville32> gpocentek, I heard someone in #u-devel that it was accepted into Feisty
<vinze> buntu : should be in Feisty universe soon... ATM experimental debs can be found for i386 arch at
<vinze> "deb http://debs.michaelbiebl.de/ edgy main" for edgy
<vinze> "deb http://debs.michaelbiebl.de/ dapper main" for dapper
<somerville32> apt-cache agrees
<fijam> there is a gtk ui tracker-search-tool and QT one (under development)
<somerville32> fijam, There are several
<somerville32> TheSheep: ping
<TheSheep> pong
<TheSheep> somerville32: you rang my lord?
<gpocentek> hum, tracker depends on gnome libs
<TheSheep> gpocentek: I'm working on a xfce one
<gpocentek> TheSheep: oh, great
<TheSheep> gpocentek: but it's not much more advanced than kalikiana's
<vinze> But is it easy to use?
<TheSheep> gpocentek: more closely tied to tracker and thunar, though
<vinze> And fast?
<TheSheep> vinze: I try my best :)
<TheSheep> vinze: time (and users) will tell
<somerville32> Is it agreed that a file search tool is a goal for Feisty?
<vinze> Great
<vinze> Yes
<gpocentek> somerville32: if we can find a good candidate, yes :)
<vinze> And a calculator, is that already included?
<TheSheep> vinze: what's wrong with a command-line calculator like bc?
<TheSheep> vinze: it's much more useful
<vinze> I prefer GUI's
<TheSheep> vinze: an icon in the menu would be enough
<vinze> Yes I'm one of that kind :D
<TheSheep> vinze: you mean you really push the buttons with your mouse???
<vinze> Yes :D
<vinze> Or typing
<vinze> But outside of the terminal
<gpocentek> vinze: we have gcalctool
<gpocentek> and python :)
<somerville32> lol
<vinze> Is gcalctool included by default?
<gpocentek> vinze: yes
<vinze> O ok
<vinze> That's cool
<somerville32> gpocentek, What about the menu? That seems to be one of the major complains.
<somerville32> Any ideas on how we can improve it?
<gpocentek> somerville32: upstream is working on something
<vinze> Well, I think we should at least keep System and Settings separated
<gpocentek> but I have not really looked at this yet
<vinze> I read somewhere Gnome would be bundling them
<somerville32> gpocentek, Why did we get rid of Thunar, Terminal, and Firefox from the top level?
* somerville32 still has it because the upgrade didn't overwrite his settings.
<gpocentek> somerville32: Jani decided it, no idea why
<somerville32> I think we should discuss reimplementing it
<gpocentek> maybe in a different way
<vinze> I'd make Thunar a "Home" icon
<gpocentek> icons on the panel for instance
<somerville32> TheSheep: Whats the #1 question in #xubuntu?
<vinze> But I don't think a Terminal icon is neccessary
<vinze> But you'll probably disagree
<Jester45> can i ask a question is the #1 asked question
<vinze> Jester45: lol
<Jester45> not to be smart or anything
<somerville32> I personally have have Firefox, Gedit, Thunar, and Terminal as launchers on my bar next to xfce menu
<vinze> I have about 20 icons in my top panel :D
<somerville32> Maybe we should add those four launchers (except replacing gedit with mousepad)?
* Jester45 is at 16
<gpocentek> mousepad and terminal are geeky utils IMO
<vinze> I agree
<gpocentek> and geeks can add icons on their panel ;)
<vinze> But Firefox and "Home" (better than Thunar IMHO) are fine with me
<vinze> geeks like to customize :D
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> Abiword then
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> And the terminal is there to make it a nice round number of four icons ;] 
<vinze> Yeah I think Abiword is a good idea
<vinze> I like three
<gpocentek> hum, if we starrt with adding desktop apps to the panel, we will end with 30 launchers
<Jester45> i dont like Abiword my self but many new to linuxers like it becuase it looks like MSWord
<vinze> gpocentek: Well, mainly the most-used apps
<vinze> (File-)Browsing and Word Processing
<somerville32> gpocentek, I think we can limit it to those. They are the most used desktop applications.
<vinze> I like Abiword because it's fast
<gpocentek> maybe we should discuss default settings on the ML
<gpocentek> or even better, the xubuntu-default-settings package has a bzr branch
<vinze> We should make some kind of voting page
<gpocentek> feel free to create your own branch to propose your choice
<vinze> Didn't LP support polls?
<somerville32> gpocentek, Btw, why is that authored by ubuntu-core-dev and not xubuntu-team? :P
<gpocentek> somerville32: because it deals with packaging I guess
<gpocentek> somerville32: but it's not a problem
<gpocentek> we can create a xubuntu-team branch and merge it with the core-dev one
<somerville32> True
<gpocentek> ok, is there anything else?
<somerville32> Well
<fijam> I have a question regarding media player for Feisty. Will it be still gxine?
<somerville32> I think there are some more goals we can set for Feisty
<gpocentek> fijam: I think so
<vinze> Will AIGLX also be default for Xubuntu?
<vinze> Automatically I mean
<vinze> So without Beryl or Compiz
<somerville32> gpocentek, What about SMB?
<somerville32> Should we consider adding pyNeighborhood to the seeds?
<somerville32> Have you even had a chance to try it yet?
<gpocentek> somerville32: does it work well?
<gpocentek> I've not tested it yet
<somerville32> gpocentek, 0.4 is a lot better then 0.3
<somerville32> It is actively being developed
<somerville32> Upstream said they'd love to help
<gpocentek> great
<somerville32> It is in Universe currently
<gpocentek> yep
<somerville32> Give it a try if you can and let me know what you think and I'll file a MIR
<Jester45> bye bye fear not as i will be back soon
* vinze fears
<gpocentek> somerville32: ok, I'll test it
<vinze> O damn
<vinze> How about this notification daemon for Xfce?
<somerville32> Interesting idea
<gpocentek> Thunar can use it
<gpocentek> for eject/umount notification popups
<somerville32> But might it cause a conflict with the gnome notification daemon?
<vinze> Well, yes
<gpocentek> somerville32: yes, but that's not a problem, xubuntu-desktop can depend on notification-daemon | xfce-n-d
<vinze> Quote: Notification-daemon-xfce conflicts with the original notification-daemon
<somerville32> gpocentek, perfect.
<somerville32> Alrighty
<somerville32> gpocentek, Do you want me to package xfce-n-d or will you?
<gpocentek> somerville32: go ahead
<gpocentek> I'll review it :)
<somerville32> lol, ok
<somerville32> gpocentek, Did you review my updated patch, btw?
<gpocentek> somerville32: not yet
<somerville32> As for xfce 4.4
<somerville32> Do you plan to do that solo or can I help?
<gpocentek> somerville32: feel free to grab some packages, but we'll have to coordinate to not duplicate the work
<somerville32> ok
<gpocentek> including the goodies it'll be ~30 packages that need to be updated
* somerville32 nods.
<gpocentek> somerville32: mr_pouit has already updated a bunch of plugins BTW
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Is the delta between 4.4 RC2 and stable big?
<gpocentek> no
<somerville32> Anything cool besides the Thunar improvements?
<gpocentek> nothing new since RC2
<gpocentek> ok, /me is off for diner ;)
<vinze> Have fun :D
<fijam> I am off to go, too
<vinze> Bye
<fijam> see you
<somerville32> I have to get something to eat too :)
<vinze> So is the meeting over?
<somerville32> I think that would be safe to say, yes ;] 
<gpocentek> vinze: I guess so ;)
<vinze> Has the LiveCD issue also been discussed?
<somerville32> It wasn't on the agenda
<somerville32> so no
<vinze> OK :(
<vinze> Wasn't it part of the Feisty Roadmap discussion
<vinze> *?
<somerville32> "Feisty Roadmap Discussion" is rather ambiguous
<somerville32> And it is too late in the development cycle to really do anything new
<vinze> PL
<vinze> *OK
<Mithrandir> what live cd issue?
<vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/Xubuntu-Wishlist#head-11feec0677c4557016d6f27c6529b4da3640d654
<somerville32> "Some people use the Live CD for more than just testing an installation will work. Maybe an alert when we shut down, to warn the user that any files (if there are files) in the home folder are not saved to disk, and will be lost. -- Mattj2 2006-11-17 14:35:00" ?
<Mithrandir> the first, have you pressed f2 (or f3, I can't remember) and selecting your keyboard there?
<vinze> Well, the problem is that people have to look for it
<Mithrandir> yes, and it'll stay that way.
<vinze> But as it's too late now to do something about it
<vinze> Perhaps something for Feisty+1
<Mithrandir> no, the live cd should not ask questions.
<Mithrandir> the second one doesn't have anything to do with xubuntu specifically, it should probably be fixed, it's just a minor thing in casper/gdm.
<vinze> Mithrandir: I think in this situation asking a question is reasonable
<Mithrandir> vinze: you may think so, but it won't be changed even so.
<vinze> I know :D
<Mithrandir> (I say this with both my release manager and casper maintainer hat on)
<vinze> Casper was what handles the LiveCD?
<Mithrandir> it's the initramfs bits which makes the live cd into a live cd and not a regular desktop system, yes.
<vinze> Cool
<vinze> Btw, :
<vinze> "I have used Ubuntu Live CDs before, that ask what sort of keyboard you have, and automatically set Ubuntu up that way. "
<vinze> Is that true?
<Mithrandir> when we used d-i for the live cd, yes.
<Mithrandir> that's breezy and earlier, iirc.
<vinze> Ah, right
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-21
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 23 Jan 07:00: MOTU | 24 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 31 Jan 07:00: Technical Board | 01 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 01 Feb 09:00: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-14
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 14 2008, 06:33:17 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 2 days
 * emgent hi
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 01:00 UTC: IRC Council | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-15
<greg-g> @now
<greg-g> !now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 15 2008, 15:46:16 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 9 hours 13 minutes
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 16 Jan 12:00: IRC Council | 16 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu meeting | 18 Jan 01:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 23:00: MOTU | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu meeting
<Seveas> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 15 2008, 16:19:13 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 8 hours 40 minutes
<Seveas> @schedule Amsterda,
<Seveas> @schedule Amsterdam
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 16 Jan 02:00: IRC Council | 16 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 13:00: MOTU | 23 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting
<mr_pouit> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 16 Jan 02:00: IRC Council | 16 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 13:00: MOTU | 23 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting
<nxvl_work> @schedule Lima
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Lima: 15 Jan 20:00: IRC Council | 16 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 07:00: MOTU | 23 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting
<emonkey> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 15 2008, 20:01:52 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 4 hours 58 minutes
<Lure> @schedule Ljubljana
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 16 Jan 02:00: IRC Council | 16 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 13:00: MOTU | 23 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting
<Keybuk> mdz: TB time?
<mjg59> Evening
<mdz> Keybuk: yep
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:06. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> sabdfl sent apologies
<mdz> [TOPIC] Component status of Xubuntu (main vs. universe)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Component status of Xubuntu (main vs. universe)
<mdz> there has been some discussion about whether it would be a good idea to build Xubuntu from main+universe rather than only main
<mdz> meaning that Xubuntu-specific packages could move to universe
<mjg59> Doing so would seem a fairly clear clarification of what's already the status-quo - Canonical don't support Xubuntu
<Keybuk> the obvious advantage being that more people could work on Xubuntu-specific packages?
<mdz> in my view, this would benefit the Xubuntu community by enabling more people to contribute (any MOTU), and benefit Canonical by clarifying its support status
<mjg59> (Unless my misunderstanding is correct)
<mjg59> Uhm.
<mdz> mjg59: ...
<mjg59> Understanding. Incorrect.
<mdz> mjg59: your first message to this channel during the meeting is factually correct
<Keybuk> mdz: that is it Evening? :)
<Lure> Keybuk: depending on TZ
<mdz> Keybuk: see a few lines below for the start of the meeting ;-)
<mdz> anyway, I talked with mr_pouit and gpocentek in #ubuntu-devel before the meeting
<mdz> I'm happy for them to chime in here if they have more to say
<mdz> but here's what I got:
<mdz> <gpocentek> mdz: mr_pouit is the leader, so I'd like to ear from him
<mdz> <mr_pouit> I don't have a strong opinion against that. If there are these facilities to build from universe, why not?
<mdz> that's about it
<somerville32> I'm a member of the xubuntu-team
<somerville32> and I'd like to raise a few issues I see with migrating to Universe
<mdz> somerville32: by all means
<gpocentek> like mdz said, having xfce in main was mainly because universe iso builds were not supported
<gpocentek> (during dapper dev cycle that was)
<somerville32> I think the issue is bigger than just moving Xubuntu to universe. I have serious concerns about designating "main" as the archive that holds packages supported by Canonical.
<mdz> indeed, I did raise the point that Xubuntu originally migrated from universe to main because our derivative-building system only worked that way.  that's now changed, and Ubuntu Studio is happily building from universe
<mjg59> somerville32: That's always been the traditional distinction made
<mjg59> In some cases it's been less true, due to technical issues with building releases that way
<mdz> [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/components
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/components
<somerville32> To help set the stage, I'd like to ask a few questions to help validate my premise
<somerville32> Ubuntu is a separate entity from Canonical, correct? Canonical is a third-party that supports the development of the Ubuntu distribution.
<mdz> main means "will get critical fixes" and (with the exception of Xubuntu) "commercial support available from Canonical"
<mdz> "will get critical fixes" is credible because Canonical provides them
<somerville32> What if other companies wish to fill a similar role to Canonical? How would the Ubuntu developers facilitate that?
<somerville32> Would their packages be promoted to main as well?
<mdz> somerville32: Ubuntu is a project.  Canonical is a commercial company which provides backing for Ubuntu, and occupies a privileged position in the ecosystem because of that
<mjg59> somerville32: Certain key parts of infrastructure are run by Canonical or only available to Canonical employees. As a result, as Matt says, their status is special
<mdz> somerville32: I think that if there were such a company, we would need some way to distinguish their guarantees from Canonical's
<mdz> "main" isn't specific enough in that scenario
<mdz> e.g. if you buy a support contract from company X, it covers foo/bar/baz, but from Canonical it covers bleem/snue/etc.
<mdz> and when a security vulnerability is found, who is expected to provide a fix?
<gpocentek> I don't think that a company wants to xupport xubuntu now anyway
<gpocentek> support*
<mdz> somerville32: the way it works today, there are other companies which provide services for Ubuntu, but there has been no conflict in how they define their offerings
<gpocentek> so it's maybe a bit OT
<Lure> mdz: it would be good to improve this page: http://www.canonical.com/projects
<Lure> mdz: it is still not clear what is supported in derivatives
<mdz> Lure: I agree
<Lure> and it would probably make sense to introduce "offical" derivatives - like approved by TB/CC side
<Lure> xubuntu maybe being first candidate
<mdz> Canonical offers "support" to the community developing Xubuntu, through hosting for example, but doesn't "support" Xubuntu (with commercial support contracts)
<Lure> mdz: something like that
<somerville32> My concern, the first of a small number, is that the main repository for Ubuntu, a community project, is actually a commercial company's repository. This concern asks me if maybe the model in which we do things (ie. see Keybuk's proposal to merge universe and main) needs to be re-thinked instead of moving Xubuntu to universe.
<mdz> Lure: thanks for pointing that out; I will follow it up with the folks responsible for that site
<Keybuk> somerville32: I haven't made a proposal yet, just a strawman
<somerville32> s/proposal/strawman
<mdz> [ACTION] mdz to follow up regarding http://www.canonical.com/projects
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to follow up regarding http://www.canonical.com/projects
<Lure> mdz: I talked with cjwatson before, so he opened bug 172672
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 172672 in canonical-website "http://www.canonical.com/projects claims that Xubuntu is supported by Canonical" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172672
<highvoltage> ~.
<mdz> somerville32: I think there is definitely room for reconsidering how we organize the repository, but it is orthogonal to this issue
<somerville32> It would seem more community orientated if the focus was taken off the commercial support that Canonical provides and more to the support the community is willing to provide when determining the taxonomy of our packages.
<mdz> whether Xubuntu is built from main or universe, it won't matter if we reorganize the repository
<somerville32> mdz, I'm just wondering if that issue should be tackled first before we decide to move Xubuntu to universe
<Keybuk> somerville32: I don't see a particular ordering constraint hee
<mdz> Lure: thanks
<mdz> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172672
<somerville32> Because the rationale for moving Xubuntu to universe is that Canonical does not offer support for it
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/172672
<Keybuk> somerville32: and that the move would allow more developers to work on it
<mdz> somerville32: that is one half of the rationale
<Lure> somerville32: what is your concern with the move - I see lots of benefits (motu's can contribute, less push on getting core-dev's)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 172672 in canonical-website "http://www.canonical.com/projects claims that Xubuntu is supported by Canonical" [Undecided,New]
<mdz> Lure: no more MIRs...
<_MMA_> Lure: Its not of a technical nature.
<somerville32> As I said earlier, the standards level for Universe is not parallel to that of Main.
<Keybuk> standards level?
<gpocentek> *sigh*
<Keybuk> universe is certainly supposed to be the same standard of package as main
<gpocentek> wil we stop working on xfce packages because it's in universe?
<mr_pouit> and we won't stop testing either
<_MMA_> somerville32: Then as a team, I would challenge you guys to do QA on the packages you care about.
<Lure> somerville32: being in main just raises expectations of commercial support that is not there
<mdz> somerville32: while it's possible for us to define overlapping levels of commitment to different packages (commercial support, security updates, ...) we would much prefer to keep it simple, and have just "main" and "not main"
<mjg59> somerville32: Unless you think people who were previously working on XFCE are going to drop their standards, I don't see this as a problem
<mdz> and everyone agree on what that means
<Lure> somerville32: or are you concerned that other non-xubuntu motu's would mess with your packages?
<mdz> I think it's important for the services around Ubuntu to be easily understood by users
<mdz> in many cases, it's already an uphill battle because in some cases, users need to understand the free software model
<somerville32> There is a perception that Universe has lower standards and that it is okay to not test it like you would a package in main.
<mdz> (one of those clauses could go)
<somerville32> Do I think that the people contribution now will contribute at a lower level of quality, no
<somerville32> But part of the rationale for the move is that more people can get involved.
<somerville32> Do I really believe that MOTUs are you going to install the xubuntu-desktop so that they can properly test changes? No. If anything, people will just be trying to up their upload count like mr_pouit said.
<mdz> somerville32: are you concerned that the quality of Xubuntu will change for the worse?
<somerville32> I feel moving any package to Universe currently puts it's quality in question, unfortunately.
<gpocentek> somerville32: that's something that can be handled by the xubuntu team, keeping the package in main just mean that we don't trust people
<Lure> somerville32: if you think that, then we have more generic problem and should be solved
<somerville32> Lure, i agree with you.
<mdz> the only reason to be more relaxed about universe is that there is not a strong support and maintenance commitment behind it
<mdz> and that's already not the case with Xubuntu
<Lure> somerville32: personally I think that universe is as good as much as particular motus care about particular packages
<Lure> somerville32: since xubuntu-team would still care for xubuntu packages, I do not see that this should mean lower quality though
<mdz> we are discussing, for post-8.04, ways to classify packages in a finer-grained way
<somerville32> Is Xubuntu the only packages in Main right now that do not have Canonical support?
<mdz> e.g., this set of software is covered by a standard support contract, this (super)set carries a commitment to updates, this (super)set has active maintainers, etc.
<somerville32> Because I heard from someone in Montreal that main has became populated with a number of packages that do not carry actual support.
<mdz> somerville32: support isn't defined strictly in terms of packages
<mdz> but the XFCE desktop is not covered
<mdz> somerville32: we very much want to say that all of the software in main is covered
<mdz> and we want to correct the small number of cases where that is not true
<mdz> for 8.04 and beyond
<somerville32> The stem of my argument comes from my disagreement that main should not be composed of packages supported by Canonical and instead by packages supported by core-dev
<mdz> this is what I mean when I talk about making it simple for users
<Lure> mdz: I think int would be good to clean it up then completely and not just xubuntu
<Keybuk> somerville32: how would you instead define the difference between main and universe?
<mdz> right now it's hard to understand what's covered and what's not, they need to talk to us about it
<Lure> and probably there should be note on http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/components about commercial support
<mjg59> somerville32: I don't believe that's something the TB clearly have the power to change
<mdz> somerville32: packages in main come with a guarantee
<gpocentek> could we come to a decision about Xubuntu for the moment? :)
<somerville32> And thats why I question the entire model at this time but since that is a tangent of this discussion, I can only say that perhaps you should move forward with moving Xubuntu to universe but I doubt that it will actual result in more contributors besides the odd individual looking to get their package count increased. mr_pouit and gpocentrek have been very responsive when dealing with the xubuntu related packages in the ubuntu-
<somerville32> main-sponsors.
<mdz> gpocentek: somerville32 has raised some concerns, and I would like to include him in the consensus
<somerville32> so I don't see it as lowering the barrier
<gpocentek> sure
<somerville32> The only thing I see this move doing is satisfying Canonical's current model
<Lure> somerville32: it makes it more clear also for users
<mdz> somerville32: I commend them on their responsiveness, but in universe, any new developers who might want to work on Ubuntu would have an easier time joining MOTU than joining core-dev
<somerville32> mdz, Yes, it would be beneficial to me in that regard as I move forward to apply for MOTU-ship in a few months
<Lure> somerville32: currently, users might be mislead and expecting for something which is not there
<somerville32> However, I'd ask that the TB do not drop the ball on evaluating the current model and usefulness of some of the strawmans that have been presented.
<mdz> I think that the induction process for MOTU is strong, and enabling MOTU developers to contribute to Xubuntu is appropriate
<mdz> do you object to allowing MOTU to upload XFCE packages?
<mdz> somerville32: I definitely acknowledge that the model is confusing, and part of the justification for this proposal is that we want to simplify it
<somerville32> It isn't so much allowing MOTUs to upload Xfce4 packages, it is the the current perception of some developers
<mdz> I'm open to further discussion about how we organize and communicate about our commitments (as a project, and on behalf of Canonical)
<mdz> but I do think it's a separate issue
<mdz> what we're aiming for here is that users get what they expect
<mdz> and it's much easier to change what we do to match their expectations than to change their expectations
<somerville32> mdz, Are you saying that Canonical is frequently getting support requests for Xfce4 packages?
<mdz> somerville32: not specifically, but we do get the question "what is supported and what isn't?"
<mdz> which is a question which should have a simple answer
<mdz> I don't know how often we get inquiries about Xubuntu specifically
<somerville32> By fear, that I think is a true one, is that because there is a big push to distinguish certain packages as Canonical supported (ie. main) a stigma has developed for Universe
<mdz> but I can say that it's very likely not enough to justify the cost of providing the support, or it would be offered
<somerville32> By putting the expectation that main has high standards than Universe, Universe _will_ have lower standards
<somerville32> s/By fear/My fear
<Lure> somerville32: but having security patch commitment actually means higher standards
<mdz> I think it's OK for universe to have less rigidity
<mdz> developers should be able to work freely except where there is an overriding concern
<Lure> somerville32: but it does not mean that you cannot provide security patches for xubuntu, afair
<mdz> in the case of main, the overriding concern is that users demand a commitment
<mdz> particularly commercial users
<mdz> users do not demand such a commitment for all of the software in Ubuntu, only a subset
<mdz> and we try to codify the subset for which that commitment is justified, in main
<somerville32> Then to help keep the focus on community, I hope we move to a different model so that "main ubuntu packages" is not synonymous to "canonical support packages".
<mdz> I sympathize with your position, but I think it's very difficult to tease apart "backed by a commitment from Ubuntu" with "backed by a commitment from Canonical"
<mdz> because, fundamentally, someone needs to take commercial responsibility for that commitment
<mdz> and presently, that is Canonical
<somerville32> To me, I find that somewhat demoralizing as a _community_ contributor.
<mdz> somerville32: how so?
<somerville32> First off, I'm very thankful for Canonical's commitment and support to help make Ubuntu awesome
<no0tic> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 15 2008, 20:53:42 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 4 hours 6 minutes
<somerville32> But I take pride and ownership in Ubuntu too as a community contributor since Ubutnu is a community project.
<mdz> when Canonical commits to support something, it means that even if it is abandoned by its maintainers, Canonical is prepared to devote resources to filling the gap
<mdz> we owe a lot to the developers of Linux, but they simply don't care anymore about Linux 2.6.15.  Canonical, however, backports patches to it week after week, to ensure continuous maintenance for Ubuntu users
<mdz> somerville32: as well you should!
<somerville32> So I'm naturally concerned when things are shifted away from the community and into commercial hands
<mdz> somerville32: but that doesn't mean that Ubuntu users can hold you responsible for everything you do
<mdz> if they have a problem, and you can't help them, or don't want to, that's your choice
<somerville32> Right
<mdz> Canonical doesn't have that choice
<Lure> somerville32: in which point you feel things are shifted from community to commercial?
<mdz> and Canonical pays its staff to be on call to respond, 24x7
<somerville32> If Ubuntu, the community, was able to give commitment to a number of packages (ie. main) and Canonical was easily able to tag packages/software solutions that they support, I feel the focus would still be on the community resolving my concerns
<Lure> somerville32: fact is that Canonical has from its position (historical and present) more control over the project, but that does not mean it should impact community work much
<mdz> that doesn't make the contributions of the community any less valuable
<mdz> we wouldn't even have a product without the community
<mdz> but the community can't have customers, while Canonical can
<mdz> and the fact that Canonical exists to service those customers is a key part of the vision of Ubuntu
<mdz> in some ways, Canonical is just another contributor to Ubuntu
<mdz> but in other ways, it's a fundamental part of the project
<somerville32> I see where you're coming from mdz and I think all your points are completely legitimate but my concern is with the focus on the "It is either supported by Canonical or it is not"
<mdz> and there wouldn't be an Ubuntu without Canonical either
<_MMA_> mdz: Then this is where it might be better to have 1 repo and a list of packages Canonical supports.
<la_petite_Gogole> cody
<Lure> mdz: + strong commercial support/funding by Canonical brings more trust to community that it worth contributing as there is some logivity expected behind
<somerville32> la_petite_Gogole, ugh... yes?
<mdz> _MMA_: and that is something we are actively looking at, but it is a long term idea
<mdz> _MMA_: there's nothing we can do in that direction for 8.04
<mjg59> somerville32: Rationalising the current situation doesn't prevent us from altering things in the long run
<mdz> and decisions we make with 8.04 will be with us through 2013
<mjg59> But with an LTS release coming up, we do need to make it clear what's supported now
<_MMA_> mdz: Understandable.
<mdz> _MMA_: Keybuk's proposal is a step in the right direction, and I'd like to see our repositories match the way we think about software
<mdz> but we're stuck with main+universe for 8.04, and so the best we can do is make main+universe easy to understand
<somerville32> fair enough
<mdz> not that it's that bad
<mdz> (or else I'd have myself to blame in no small part...)
<Lure> mdz: ;-)
<mdz> somerville32: would you feel more confident in this if we set an explicit goal to revisit how we define the repository for 8.10+?
<mdz> when we have some freedom to make changes?
<somerville32> mdz, Yes, very much so
<_MMA_> Im honestly a little shocked to hear such a low opinion of Universe from Cody as all the Ubuntu Studio packages are there and I know the work we and other MOTU put into them. Id put 'em up aginst any Main package. :P
<mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: would you be OK with us making such a commitment on behalf of the project?
<somerville32> I think things are changing for the better, _MMA_
<_MMA_> We've even found bugs in Main packages because our packages (based on Ubuntu-Main ones) were rejected by archive admins. :P
<Keybuk> mdz: given rearranging the repository is my own pet mission, yes ;-)
<mjg59> I'm unwilling to commit to it happening for 8.10 (or any specific release), but yes, I think this does need fixing
<mdz> mjg59: for 8.10, we will hold a proper discussion about the right way to do it in the long term, and work toward that
<mdz> we can't commit to reaching such a goal in one release cycle, I agree
<mjg59> Sure
<mdz> ok then
<Keybuk> sounds like we have our first UDS ML session ;)
<Keybuk> (ML: Mystery Location)
<somerville32> :)
<somerville32> That gives me a good reason to try and get there
<somerville32> I'd be very interested in seeing us move forward with an innovative solution for this issue
<somerville32> For now, moving Xubuntu to Universe I'm sure won't hurt too much ;]
<somerville32> As _MMA_ and I already said, the situation for Universe _is_ improving.
<somerville32> Especially with the recent additions of such MOTUs like Emmet Hickory
<mdz> [VOTE] 1) packages seeded for Xubuntu are not required to be in main, 2) Xubuntu will continue to be built as usual but including packages from universe, and 3) in the Ubuntu 8.10 planning cycle (including UDS), we will discuss in depth how the repositories are organized with respect to project commitments and make plans to improve this
<MootBot> Please vote on:  1) packages seeded for Xubuntu are not required to be in main, 2) Xubuntu will continue to be built as usual but including packages from universe, and 3) in the Ubuntu 8.10 planning cycle (including UDS), we will discuss in depth how the repositories are organized with respect to project commitments and make plans to improve this.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mjg59> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mjg59. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> #endvote
<mdz> eek, I'm lagged
<mdz> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<Keybuk> --- Ping reply from mdz : 0.47 second(s)
<Keybuk> no OB from me
<mdz> --- Ping reply from mdz : 15.98 second(s)
<Keybuk> you ping'd yourself? :)
<mdz> note that there is a minor question about mailing lists from Corey Burger which I redirected to technical-board@
<mdz> please have a look and weigh in
<mdz> Keybuk: don't you?
<mdz> ok, thanks everyone
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:14.
<Keybuk> mdz: xchat-gnome does it all the time itself
<somerville32> Is the TB still approving all the MC's MOTU application approvals?
<pochu> somerville32: nope, the MC now approves them and changes the status in LP
<somerville32> ok
<somerville32> Awesome. Anyhow, thanks a bunch Keybuk, mdz, and mjg59 for hearing me out :)
 * mdz catches up with TeamReporting
<mdz> somerville32: thanks for your input
<no0tic>  /j #quadratoufficiali
<no0tic> sorryyy
<LjL> no0tic: se non altro non ci hai dato anche la password
<no0tic> LjL, non la conosco
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-16
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: IRC Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 16 2008, 00:51:29 - Current meeting: IRC Council
<PriceChild> Its that time again!
<Pici> Howdy Doody time?
<tritium> Hello!
<Pici> Why hello thar.
 * nalioth drops a pin
<PriceChild> bong
<Pici> Hm, not much on the agenda.
<PriceChild> "yet"
<Pici> Oh boy.
 * Pici waits for nalioth to get his fingers on it.
<nalioth> are we all here?
<PriceChild> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<nalioth> did we want to discuss the #kubuntu-kde4 thing?
<Pici> I think we wanted to discuss how to prevent it in the future.
<nalioth> i'd just like to venture my opinion on #kubuntu-kde4.
<LjL> Kind of, I guess. The item I put in the agenda is about a documents for operators that should help when creating new channels. Nothing exceptional, just a checklist of things we generally do in such cases.
<LjL> Perhaps we want to wait for elkbuntu, though?
<Pici> Did she say she was able to make it?
<tritium> gah, I had wanted to attend, but I'm being called off.  Take care, all.
<LjL> Pici: she said so
<LjL> Well, anyway, the document I prepared is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/CreatingChannels - if you want to start having a look. I think more than "approving" it, it's a matter of technically proofreading it...
<PriceChild> Is the seeking the approval bit necessary?
<Pici> We should at least be notified.
<LjL> PriceChild, we may debate that. Do we want it to simply be a "help" document, or should it actually be something that people are *required* to follow when creating a channel?
<LjL> It can be used both ways, I guess.
<PriceChild> The informing people bit near the end.... yeah ok. But .................. "help" imo
<PriceChild> We've talked about this before and been pretty much of the opinion "damned if we do, damned if we don't" so I don't think it right to be requiring it from people.
<Pici> I don't think its too much to ask for a notification that a new channel in the #ubuntu namespace is being activated.
<PriceChild> No I'm happy with suggesting that,
<LjL> To connect to the #kubuntu-kde4 issue, however, I think it *is* reasonable of us, when a channel doesn't seem to be approved by the team holding the namespace, and/or it's not set up (i.e. basically nothing in that checklist has been followed, it's an empty channel with no operators, no real way to enforce respecting the CoC, etc), to temporarily close it until it is set up for the "public".
<nalioth> my issue is not about that.
<nalioth> my issue is that i think we're gonna be creating "second class citizens"
<LjL> nalioth: what do you mean with that?
<nalioth> Hardy is gonna officially ship with kde3 and kde4.
<nalioth> depending on what the user chooses, he's not gonna be welcomed in #kubuntu
<Pici> Ah, so the creation of a sub-channel is what irks you.
<nalioth> Pici: i believe it will 'irk' a lot of folks (we serve the world, you know)
<LjL> nalioth: My understanding is that, once Hardy is released, it would be supported in #kubuntu and #kubuntu-kde4 would be closed...
<LjL> I could be wrong about that, however.
<PriceChild> That's the impression I got also.
<nalioth> LjL: i've heard other info since
<nalioth> which is why i'm offering my opinion
<Pici> I got the impression that -kde4 would be open indefinitely
<LjL> Well, nalioth, but in any case I don't think we have any authority, really, on the issue, do we? If the Kubuntu Council makes a decision about the #kubuntu channel and its namespace, I don't think the IRC Team can or should overrule such decision...
<nalioth> LjL: which is why i keep using the word 'opinion"
<LjL> Pici: That is almost certainly not the case.
<LjL> nalioth: Sure. Perhaps we should invite the people in #kubuntu-devel (or whatever the most appropriate channel is) to this meeting to discuss the issue?
<PriceChild> where's hobbsee? :)
<stdin> LjL: in a discussion with hobbsee in -irc we agreed to keep it open post-release and re-asses when KDE4 has a larger user-base
<stdin> erm, in -ops, not -irc
<PriceChild> stdin, with hardy shipping with kde4 aren't you expecting it to become the norm?
<stdin> we reasoned that many people would try kde4, but then go back to a more stable kde3
<LjL> well, stdin, as long as Kubuntu "3" and Kubuntu "4" are two separate release, Kubuntu "3" being prominently promoted as the "stable" release, and Kubuntu "4" as a bleeding-edge, potentially unstable one, that would seem reasonable.
<PriceChild> That's not exactly going to be easy though? swapping the installed packages?
<stdin> PriceChild: some will switch, others won't
<LjL> Otherwise, my own opinion is that it is not.
<PriceChild> I had enough of a time swapping between gnome and kde4.
<stdin> afaik, on the downloads section there will indeed be 2 images
<nalioth> LjL: but both are gonna "officially" ship with Hardy
<PriceChild> but kde4 will be on shipit only, and kde4 will be promoted most?
<nalioth> LjL: no "this is stable" and "this is nose-bleed"
<PriceChild> gah this isn't really relevant
<nalioth> right. i gave my opinion.
<LjL> nalioth: Well, although not really a very comparable example, Compiz/Beryl "shipped" (in Universe, though) with various versions of Ubuntu. Yet we had a channel set up specifically for Compiz/Beryl issues (#ubuntu-effects, now closed), and didn't deal with them in #ubuntu.
<stdin> yes we will promote KDE4, we know it's "not ready for the average user", but the more users we get the more bugs we find an fix, and so make the next release better
<nalioth> right, LjL, that's not comparable at all
<LjL> However, I recognize that the desktop environment of a distribution is something a little more "core".
<PriceChild> The big thing that confuses me.... is why #kubuntu can't handle both.
<nalioth> i had a wild thought that while the kde3/4 were both 'officially supported and endorsed', making #kubuntu an "entryway" channel to -kde3 and -kde4
<nalioth> PriceChild: well, that also confuses me, but the kubuntu ops say that it can't.
<stdin> PriceChild: because the 2 environments are different enough to cause a lot of confusion when trying to ask/answer questions
<LjL> stdin, if I were to decide, I'd say that you can't have it both ways... either you go with the risk of shipping something "bleeding-edge", cross your fingers, and support it in #kubuntu... or you shouldn't say "Yes, we promote this very loudly, but... we don't support it in our official channel...! Because it's bleeding-edge and it would stop those poor KDE 3 users, who use a real system and not an unstable one, from getting support".
<PriceChild> stdin, people aren't going to join #kubuntu-kde4 before #kubuntu
<PriceChild> stdin, they will join #kubuntu, then get annoyed when they're told to go to #kubuntu-kde4
<PriceChild> stdin, they might even join #ubuntu, be told to go to #kubuntu, then again moved to #kubuntu-kde4
 * PriceChild uses #ubuntuforums, #ubuntu-offtopic and #ubuntu-effects as examples of the above.
<LjL> Also, while (as I said) I believe that deciding whether a channel such as #kubuntu-kde4 should be created or not doesn't compete to us, I think it would be important for us to be part of the process that leads to creating it.
<LjL> I say this because such an important channel has implications over channels we manage directly, as well: currently, for instance, I am instructing people who ask about KDE 4.0 in #ubuntu (not just #kubuntu) to join #kubuntu-kde4 instead.
<LjL> Nobody has really decided this, though, I am doing it myself because I think it's reasonable: it would be, I think, pretty paradoxical if #kubuntu didn't accept questions about KDE 4.0, but #ubuntu did.
<stdin> I personally wan't involved in creating the channel, I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do at the start
<stdin> so I think that a more open process to doing such (and announcements) would be good
<stdin> however, it does exist now. be it only with 27 users. we expect that number to increase
<PriceChild> I don't think anything was ever formally decided, things just happened and people got angry.
<stdin> we've decided to keep -kde4 for a while to "see how it goes", and we'll re-assess it soon after hardy and a few times after
<PriceChild> ok
<stdin> we basically just want to see what the response to and take-up of kde4 is going to be like before we include it into the main channel
<elkbuntu> ok, im here
<LjL> elkbuntu, hi, we're discussing #kubuntu-kde4 as you can see, and I showed a document I've written about creating new channels ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/CreatingChannels ), although the consensus to me seems to be that it should only be a "help" document for operators, and not a policy.
<elkbuntu> LjL, i would agree with that
<LjL> stdin: I've been suggested something, by the way. As far as I know, the default Kubuntu IRC client(s) join #kubuntu by default... Couldn't the KDE 4.0 / Kubuntu 8.04 "4" clients be made to join #kubuntu-kde4 automatically, instead?
<stdin> that would be an idea, however there aren't really any KDE4 IRC clients :)
<LjL> There is that.
<stdin> konversation isn't ported and kopete seems to have lost IRC from it's abilities
<stdin> and konversation won't be ported for quite a while yet, they plan on a 1.1 before the port starts
<LjL> Well, I am confident however that, since Canonical has elected to ship Hardy through their ShipIt service, they will invest the resources to give it core abilities such as being able to connect to the official Ubuntu IRC support channels.
<elkbuntu> i think the decision of irc applications lies with the kubuntu dev team anyway, not us
<elkbuntu> LjL, was this the only agenda item?
<LjL> Of course.
<LjL> elkbuntu: I'm afraid so.
<elkbuntu> sorry i wasnt here for more of it, but it appears a reasonable agreement was reached
<nalioth> elkbuntu: nothing was argued.
<nalioth> elkbuntu: this was an informational meeting, it seems
<LjL> If you want an impromptu topic, I have one...
<Hobbsee> ah, crap.  knew i forgot something.
<PriceChild> Afternoon Hobbsee :)
<Hobbsee> heya
<elkbuntu> nalioth, i believe the document was reviewed and a concensus reached -- that is an agreement in my books
<LjL> Hobbsee: Yes, indeed... you might want to check the logs.
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, anything you want to add?
 * Hobbsee hasn't read logs yet
<PriceChild> Hardy is out in a few months, think we should start looking for a couple more ops for #ubuntu to get a little experience for when it busies up again?
<elkbuntu> PriceChild, we're constantly looking anyway
<LjL> As elkbuntu says... I'm always open to suggestions from you folks.
<Pici> hm
<PriceChild> anyway, anything else?
<Pici> I have nothing.
<LjL> Well, I was thinking that perhaps we should start routinely informing people about the operators channel when they may have a compelling need to discuss us there.
<elkbuntu> fair enough
<elkbuntu> all though it make fly-by rescues hard
<LjL> Well, I think we may discuss this in more detail, if it needs to be, later. I think overall we can all agree that information helps... then it's a matter of implementation.
<LjL> I suppose we can finish it here, although perhaps if Hobbsee has something to say, since the topic we've mostly talked about (although not in agenda) is of interest to her...
 * Hobbsee has a quick look
<Hobbsee> ah.  my clone is not in here anyway
<LjL> Hobbsee, will pastebin
<Hobbsee> LjL: thanks
<LjL> Hobbsee: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/52102/
<Hobbsee> LjL: only that the authority here belongs to the effective council
<Hobbsee> [02:29:28] <LjL> Well, nalioth, but in any case I don't think we have any authority, really, on the issue, do we? If the Kubuntu Council makes a decision about the #kubuntu channel and its namespace, I don't think the IRC Team can or should overrule such decision...
<nalioth> Hobbsee: to which i responded "this is my opinion"
<Hobbsee> i think that's correct, and i think that you need to give the respective councils the responsiblity *not* to come up with crack, and that therefore your discussions on "is this really the right thing to do?" is irrelevant.
<Hobbsee> nalioth: adn the perception is that the council can then go and vote against what the kubuntu council has decided.
<nalioth> i am not irrevelant.
<Hobbsee> no, but your discussions on something already decided is.
<LjL> Hobbsee, but see also my comments on how it can end up affecting #ubuntu too (although that doesn't make it any more competing to us, it just means we are an interested party)
<nalioth> Hobbsee: my opinion was not on what was decided. it was for what the future holds
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<Hobbsee> LjL: still getting down that far
<Hobbsee> LjL: oh, of course.
<Hobbsee> LjL: and i see your point
<Hobbsee> LjL: but, i'm disappointed that the irc council doesn't see it that hte kubuntu council, or whichever council, has the right to decide what channels they want to provide support in,
<Hobbsee> and that they feel the need to display their opinions, as if they're going to vote on whether it should be there or nto.
<PriceChild> We're not against that at all...
<PriceChild> in the -kde4 case, we weren't told about the kubuntu council deciding anything, I was just told to do what the irc wanted by the contact...
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: so, you email the council to check, before doing anything.
<Hobbsee> if they've been lax enough nto to email you.
<LjL> Hobbsee: I think we did state in this meeting that you have the right to decide that, however...
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, ok so tomorrow... someone randomly creates #xubuntu-foo, then tells me to do what I want with it. Do you expect me to email the xubuntu devs?
<Hobbsee> LjL: true.  iw as more discussing previously (as i haven't seen nalioth prior to this)
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: if they're known as xubuntu-type people, and in the absence of an xubuntu council, yes, absolutely.
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: or your channel contact for xubuntu-related channels, which is somerville32.
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, "they're"?
<LjL> No, sorry Hobbsee, but I don't agree. While that "Creating channels" document in the agenda is, by consensus, only a help document, I think the IRC Council can, should (and routinely does) temporarily close/redirect channels that are simply not set up. A channel with one operator is one where the CoC is simply unenforceable, to begin with.
<Hobbsee> somerville32: those who registered it
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, no, we are contact for xubuntu
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: technically, yes, but you should contact the one who has a lot of say in xubuntu-related stuff.
<somerville32> PriceChild, You're also the contact for Kubuntu and Ubuntu
<PriceChild> even if the person who created this random channel gave me full access... the channel was empty, and i was given NO sign that the kubuntu people in general had had much to do wit hit?
<PriceChild> somerville32, not for kubunt
<somerville32> No?
<PriceChild> somerville32, that's hobbsee
<LjL> Also, Hobbsee, you already know that Kubuntu developers themselves weren't clear about the channel status, when we redirected it back to #kubuntu. The *failsafe* decision we should and do make, in such a case, is to restore the previous situation (i.e. redirect to #ubuntu), not avoid acting until further notice.
<PriceChild> somerville32, /msg chanserv info #channel
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: then that sounds more suss, and i'd *definetly* ask
<LjL> We are the IRC Council, and as such we deal with what is technical on IRC. A channel that is not setup, and where the operators aren't clear on its status, is a channel we can reasonably put on hold.
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, "more suss"/
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: more suspicious
<somerville32> PriceChild, Ok. So do you think you could set me as the channel contact for #xubuntu and that'll clear that up :)
<PriceChild> somerville32, nice try.
<Hobbsee> LjL: i see the point in your redirect, i'm just more objecting to what you do after that.  i don't remembre seeing an email
<Hobbsee> only being poked by my extra client, which i only read once a day or so :)
<LjL> Hobbsee, sorry for not sending an email, but I believe that messaging you on IRC, which I did, would be sufficient.
<Hobbsee> LjL: to my active nick please, not my clone.  but granted :)
<somerville32> PriceChild, If there is a problem with an Xubuntu channel, I would image you would contact us, right? Regardless of whose name is printed on the contact field for one of the xubuntu chanels.
<PriceChild> somerville32, depends on the channel
<PriceChild> depends on the problem
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: it wouldn't be an entirely bad idea, though.
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, what wouldn't?
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: somerville32 does have a lot of care about xubuntu stuff
<Hobbsee> making him the channel contact.
<PriceChild> ah
<LjL> Then we may as well go back to being the #ubuntu contact and that's it :)
<somerville32> Might as well, I guess.
<Hobbsee> well, at least notifying of him of any major changes
<PriceChild> I'm just not happy with him asking *me* personally rather than the four of us as a group. I'm not just going to go out on a limb and do soemthing like that,
<LjL> somerville32: Well, it would be a waste to waste all this IRC Council creation, which involved CC meetings, and everything... but everything's possible.
<Hobbsee> LjL: do you actually follow kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu in terms of releases and new features, etc?
<somerville32> LjL, I think the IRC Council has its place
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, pardon?
<Hobbsee> LjL: (and should you even be expected to?)
<somerville32> I don't mind if the IRCCouncil is the contact for #xubuntu personally
<somerville32> It doesn't change that it is an Xubuntu channel
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: the channel contact for a distro/flavour should really be running the distro/flavour, so it has a good idea of what the current issues are, no?
<PriceChild> Don't you mean the other way around?
<LjL> Hobbsee, I am a Kubuntu user and a #kubuntu operator (not because of being an IRC Council member, just because I've been an operator for quite some time). I follow Kubuntu more closely than I follow Ubuntu. Anyway, that is hardly very relevant from my point of view. What is relevant is *the support questions that I see asked and answered on a channel*. I can judge that pretty well, without being in close contact with the developers.
 * stdin notes that LjL is an active helper in -kde4 too
<Hobbsee> LjL: i was menaing the council globally, not yourself.
<LjL> I think I am arguably in a *better* position than the developers to know whether an additional channel is needed or not for something. We certainly (I think) didn't ask the Ubuntu (GNOME) developers when opening, and then closing, #ubuntu-effects, for instance.
<Hobbsee> LjL: you would be welcome as a co-contact, if you wished.
<Hobbsee> LjL: council != developers, per se
<PriceChild> Why does someone need to be a contact of a channel according to chanserv to be able to read the channel and see current issues?
<LjL> Hobbsee: That is why i said it was hardly relevant from my point of view.
<Hobbsee> hwo many of the CC are developers?
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: they don't.  it's just a notify list
<PriceChild> a notify list?
<LjL> Hobbsee, ok, I rectify that - I am, as an IRC person, in a better position than *anyone who is not an IRC person* to judge the *support requirements* of an IRC channel. You are an IRC person yourself, so this is not about #kubuntu-kde4 (which we disagree about, but disagreements happens), but in general... not closely following "kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu in terms of releases and new features" is, in my opinion, hardly detrimental to understanding the
<LjL> needs of an IRC channel that one *does* follow.
<LjL> (And following the channel in such a way, really, ends up meaning you *are* updated on releases and new features, anyway...)
<LjL> (At least in so much detail as is needed for an IRC person to understand the channel's needs)
<Hobbsee> LjL: your lack of knowledge about what kubuntu will actually release for hardy isn't helpful, though :(
<Hobbsee> i think you guys were shown the meeting logs
<nalioth> Hobbsee: my opinion was for the future, not the 'now'.
<LjL> Hobbsee: That's possibly because it didn't seem very clear to the Kubuntu developers I talked to, themselves.
<somerville32> I think that Hobbsee makes a good point. Furthermore, shouldn't the people actually working on the project/team be the contact for the channel?
<PriceChild> somerville32, why?!
<Hobbsee> LjL: it was in the meeting log, and was fairly clear there, i thought.
<somerville32> Because if they're doing the work, they should be able to set the policy for _their_ channel, eh?
<PriceChild> somerville32, I've nothing personal against you, I hardly know you etc. etc. - I just don't see what this change would aid.
<Hobbsee> LjL: it was a unanimous decision about what would get released.
<PriceChild> somerville32, and normal access doesn't allow this?
<Hobbsee> somerville32: they may not want to do the day to day mangling of the namespace
<somerville32> Hobbsee, Right so I image they're free to delegate
<somerville32> I'm just saying they should have that option. It should ultimately be up to them, right?
<LjL> Hobbsee, well, is my vision of it as I've showed it in this meeting very unaligned with what was actually decided?
<Hobbsee> LjL: sorry, i've lost some context, i don't see what "it" is
<LjL> Hobbsee: "knowledge about what kubuntu will actually release for hardy"
<Hobbsee> LjL: http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~jpatrick/minutes/
<LjL> somerville32, are you somehow saying that the developers should be the ones providing IRC support?
<Hobbsee> LjL: we're releasing a kde3 hardy, a kde4 hardy, of which both have various targets
<Hobbsee> most people in the irc council appear to thin kthat we're not doing a kde3 hardy release at all
 * PriceChild headdesks
<Hobbsee> based on what i've read
<Hobbsee> LjL: so, tbh, 'im not sure
<lifeless> whosawhatsawhensa?
<LjL> Hobbsee: You appear to read your mind if you say that... but you appear to read it wrong, because I know perfectly well that a KDE 3 release will happen.
<Hobbsee> LjL: i was thinking of pricey and nalioth, in particualr
<somerville32> LjL, No but the Xubuntu team should decide who is, right? :)
<LjL> Hobbsee, nalioth hardly remembered the time of the meeting, or that there was a meeting at all. He doesn't count ;)
<nalioth> Hobbsee: not at all,  did you actually read the backlogs in here?
<Hobbsee> nalioth: yeah.  in with the rest of hte jumble.  i may not be remembering everything clearly
<elkbuntu> somerville32, i believe we're talking about kubuntu at the moment
<nalioth> Hobbsee: i rendered an opinion on the future.
 * Hobbsee doesn't really see the point of continuing this, though
<nalioth> Hobbsee: i said nothing about anything that LjL has brought up since you arrived
<LjL> I think he is referring to <nalioth> i had a wild thought that while the kde3/4 were both 'officially supported and endorsed', making #kubuntu an "entryway" channel to -kde3 and -kde4
<Hobbsee> LjL: i was thinking about that option.
<nalioth> i _do_ keep up with what is going on
<LjL> nalioth, I was only joking.
<PriceChild> I guess we just haven't expressed ourselves very well then.
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: +1
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: in the general case, forward it, and sort it out by email.
<Hobbsee> adn irc pings, etc.
<PriceChild> pardon?
<Hobbsee> er, forward the chanenl, and sort it out with the people involved via email
<PriceChild> Still no idea what you're talking about?
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: when someone clueful next sets up a channel that seems strange, forward it, and contact the relevant people via email / irc pings to their primary nicks / etc
<PriceChild> That's what we did no?
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: to their primary nicks?
<Hobbsee> er, nick?
<LjL> Hobbsee: Don't worry, next time something like this happen, you'll have even pagers that you don't have ringing :-P
<elkbuntu> PriceChild, minus the communication i believe
<Hobbsee> LjL: *grin*
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: yes, the communication part is the part i'm emphasising
<LjL> Hobbsee, however we meant no malice when, seeing how stdin, say, came and said "hey, people are joining #kubuntu-kde4, is that right? is it open yet?", we thought it should *not* yet be open in intentions, and forwarded it back.
<Hobbsee> LjL: agreed.   i would have just preferred an email notification, or an irc message to my primary nick, saying "are you aware of this?"
<Hobbsee> it's like the irc memos.  does anyone actually check them?
 * PriceChild does
 * somerville32 isn't important enough to get any
 * Hobbsee does every once in a while, but they're not great for urgent communication
<LjL> Hobbsee, I hardly check e-mail, for that matter... as I said, next time I'll employ all forms of communication that I can think of, just to be sure. Don't cry foul for excessive spam then, though :D
<elkbuntu> somerville32, please dont be like that in here, it does nothing for your cause
<Hobbsee> LjL: *grin*
<Hobbsee> LjL: i get enough email as it is :)
 * somerville32 raises an eyebrow at elkbuntu.
<Hobbsee> LjL: but yes, multiple forms == more chance it gets thru.
<Hobbsee> LjL: i'd prefer to be spammed than to be in the dark, indefinetly.
<Hobbsee> if it's something important
 * elkbuntu agrees with Hobbsee
<nixternal> right as I was about to shutdown :)
<nixternal> why is this "kubuntu-kde4" channel coming about?
<nixternal> I tried to read the scroll back but it went everywhere
<LjL> Hobbsee: Well, come on, you are on IRC daily, you were bound to see my PM in a day or two's time at most, and you did... I mean, sure, it probably was a pretty poor choice to contact you by sending a message to your "idle" nickname (but being the IRC type I am, e-mail hardly even crosses my mind), but "left in the dark"...
<LjL> nixternal, the "why" wasn't discussed in this meeting, it was discussed in Kubuntu meetings
<nixternal> I sure hope they didn't decide on a 2nd Kubuntu support channel
<Hobbsee> nixternal: wasn't that the meeting decision?
<elkbuntu> nixternal, no, a kde4 support channel
<nixternal> that is #kde
<nixternal> a Kubuntu KDE 3 or 4 support channel is #kubuntu
<elkbuntu> nixternal, this isnt the meeting to be arguing that point at anyway, it was a kubuntu council decision, not ours
<PriceChild> We're not going over this again... hobbsee and stdin say the kubuntu people made the decision... its done. They'll review it on hardy's release.
<nixternal> jesus, why we are at it, why don't we just create a kubuntu-kde4 team too...stupid
 * Hobbsee notes there already is a kubuntu-members-kde4 one atm.
<Hobbsee> :)
<stdin> heh, true
<nalioth> nixternal: folks didn't join the meeting in time, and the scrollback isn't the best place to respond from
<LjL> Hobbsee: sorry... QED. nixternal seems to be a Kubuntu Council member according to Launchpad.
<nalioth> this meeting has never been about #kubuntu-kde4
<PriceChild> LjL, oh you're joking?
<LjL> So, really, I think my impression that Kubuntu people themselves weren't clear on the issue is pretty tenable.
<elkbuntu> nixternal, take this up with the rest of the kubuntu people please
<Hobbsee> LjL: it was not a unanimous decision, no.
<Hobbsee> but fair enough, retake it up with the kubuntu people.
<Hobbsee> various council members, and other people, expressed differing opinions
<PriceChild> various council members weren't even aware of the final decision it seems
<LjL> Hobbsee: Sure, that's not my business, just reinforces my opinion that 1) by closing the channel while its status was far from clear, we made the right decision, and 2) on IRC matters, the IRC council, as it deals with IRC issues daily, is probably a good guidance organism to consult if one so elects to.
<PriceChild> We closed the channel for what.... 12 hours? In this period of confusion I don't think that was fatal. Things sort of got cleaned up and we've gotten there in the end.
 * Hobbsee shrugs
 * Hobbsee really doesn't care anymore.
<Hobbsee> let nixternal deal with it, and all the support.
<PriceChild> :/
<nixternal> don't think so
<Hobbsee> let him become the channel contact, so he gets to handle it when it all goes wrong.
<somerville32> What was the cost of _not_ closing the channel?
<PriceChild> somerville32, confusion of users that were joining it for support... when no-one else was there and better answers availiable in #kubunt.
<Hobbsee> somerville32: people being given the wrong support answers, due to using the wrong version of kde than the supporter was expecting.
<somerville32> And you're saying that, that would not have occurred if everyone stayed in #kubuntu?
<Hobbsee> hm, then i read your question wrong.
<Hobbsee> that would occur if people stayed in the same channel
<Hobbsee> but, like i say, i really don't care anymore.  it's all nixternal's decision, or someone else from teh council's.
<nixternal> that is true, considering most people on IRC can't ask a question properly in the first place
<Hobbsee> nixternal: they tend to get fairly quickly taught that they'r ein the wrong place.
<Hobbsee> or get disollusioned, as they didn't get an answer, as no one knew
<LjL> somerville32: It would have. What would have *also* occurred, however, was that some people would have joined #kubuntu-kde4 (because they had already started to, somehow), while others would receive their KDE 4 support in #kubuntu, to only discover that they couldn't get it anymore the following day, being told to join #kubuntu-kde4... which however, forwarded back to #kubuntu, etc. You see, niceties like this is what a badly set up channel brings.
<PriceChild> Right shall we call it there?
<stdin> I think that's a "yes"
<LjL> Yes...
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
 * ogra waves ....
<ogra> anybody here for the edubuntu meeting
<ogra> (the fridge schedule is somehow gotten out of sync, actually it should have been the late meeting today)
<stgraber> heya
<RichEd> hi stgraber
<RichEd> edubuntu meeting ... let's get started
<RichEd> ogra: technical ?
<ogra> still working on the ltsp move to the ubuntu CD
<ogra> the general client building works fine now with a preseed value ....
<ogra> but i have a slight problem with the ssh keys (i hope to solve today)
<ogra> the ltsp interface isnt up at the point where i generate the keys in the installer, once i have solved this its done
<ogra> i talked to cjwatson_about a menu entry, we'll likely have something in the Cd bootmenu at release time
<cjwatson_> yeah, the delay is my fault, it's blocked on me sorting out more general CD bootloader issues
<ogra> beyond that i'm working on the classmate image builder, which i hope to finish during the distro sprint next week
<ogra> cjwatson, no problem
<cjwatson> (regarding which unfortunately I have nobody to delegate to at the moment)
<ogra> lets talk about it at the sprint
<ogra> seems i'm turning into something like the -alternate maintainer here anyway since i test it regulary now
<ogra> anyway, i hope we can get rid of the edubuntu-server CD next week as well, as soon as i know ltsp is fine
<ogra> so alpha4 might be the big change in edubuntu CD design
<ogra> thats all about tech so far
<ogra> any questions ?
<ogra> hey flint
<flint> ogra, Good Morning!
<RichEd> mr flint sir ... a rare honour to have you grace us with your esteemed presence
<stgraber> hi flint
<flint> RichEd, Nice touch, my dear friend...
<flint> Greetings one and all...
<ogra> oh, one thing, we have a community guy (johnny) who takes a bit care for sabayon ...
<ogra> and LaserJock seems to have the menu stuff working properly for the first time :)
<ogra> and for everyone who wonders where sbalneav went for the last 6 weeks, i was told he's fine yesterday and will show up again soon
<RichEd> ogra: LaserJock mentioned that in the channel last week, but says he needs someone to do a neat GUI front end
<RichEd> any ideas who could help ? or mentor ?
<ogra> not really
<ogra> and imho it should be integrated into the menu editor
<ogra> not have a separate GUI
<ogra> (which is indeed more work and cant happen for hardy)
<ogra> feature freeze is on feb 14th
<RichEd> who currently looks after the menu editor ... and is the menu editor edubuntu only or ubuntu general
<ogra> ubuntu
<ogra> it needs a hook to allow such additions first
<ogra> then someone needs to write a plugin that uses this hook
<ogra> i think thats beyond hardy
<RichEd> and can LaserJocks work be used in any (manual edit) useful way for Hardy ?
<ogra> well
<ogra> yuo can ... but i wouldnt recommend that
<RichEd> hi pips1
<RichEd> ogra: okay
<pips1> hi
<stgraber> ogra: hmm, so, the FF being on 14th, it'd be a good idea to have my new italc uploaded next week or the week after, so we can work on the MIR ?
<pips1> a happy new year to all
<ogra> stgraber, yup
<ogra> the next two weeks are the essential ones :)
<RichEd> ogra: quick classmate 8.04 question ... if general *buntu hardy has a beta release date of March 20, do you expect we will have a beta classmate image around then ?
<ogra> RichEd, not sure, but i would suspect so
<RichEd> thanks ...
<ogra> i didnt think about the milestones yet
<ogra> in the end it will use the livefs builder to build the actual squashfs image
<ogra> but the part after this that actually assembles the image in a usable state will be different from the currently used debian-cd scripts
<ogra> that means we'll have daily built squashfs'es but i cant predict the second setps automation yet
<flint> ogra,  is this a bad time to mention the eepro?
<ogra> (teh squashfs built on beta day would then be the beta
<ogra> )
<flint> :^)
<ogra> flint, i dont care about the triple e at all
<ogra> it doesnt have the limitations the classmate has
<flint> ogra, sorry, and I missed an e... :^)
<ogra> apart from screen resolution its a fully fledged laptop
<flint> ogra, I saw one and it was an illicit and forbidden love that bloomed...
<ogra> so you can go with a normal install there
<flint> :^)
<ogra> classmate needs special treatment due to disk and ram limitations
<flint> ogra, gotcha
<ogra> anyway, anything else for tech ?
<RichEd> ogra: should we introduce the artwork topic now ... for 8.10 ... is there anyone around as a result of the art team mail thread ?
<ogra> RichEd, yup
<ogra> anyone here from the art team ?
<ogra> doesn seem like
<ogra> sad
<ogra> after the noise they made i'd have expected some enthusiasm ...
<ogra> doesnt seem like
<pips1> there was a call on the mailing list?
<ogra> RichEd, go on then with community ...
 * pips1 searches his archive
<ogra> pips1, there was a discussion on the ubuntu-art list
<pips1> ah
<pips1> ic
<RichEd> ogra: well let's button down the art requirements anyway ... then find the worker bodies :)
<ogra> starting with "we need to change *everything*" edubuntu is not how we like it
<RichEd> we still have JillC keen and able and willing
<ogra> so i chimed in to get them here to discuss changes
<RichEd> do you suggest anything else new apart from a new default desktop ?
<ogra> only wallpaper, and if necessary color adjustments in gdm/usplash
<RichEd> and do you or anyone else have any criteria / theme / colour palette requirements for overall guidance ?
<ogra> color palette should match what we used before
<ogra> it shouldnt break with the window frames and icons
<RichEd> okay ... and does "hardy" have any imagery theme ?
<ogra> and still look somewhat "ubuntuish"
<RichEd> is the ubuntu default wallpaper buttoned down yet ?
<ogra> i heard there was an update, but didnt manage to have a spare cycle to logout/in to see it yet
<ogra> the wallpaper isnt though
<RichEd> okay ... i'll ping kwii
<ogra> but i heard the new colorscheme was out
<RichEd> if you can let me know exactly what sizes we need up front ... i'll get jill to start in the right sizes and aspect ratios
<ogra> sizes -> the same we always had
<ogra> 1600x1200 for 4:3 and 1400x something for wide
<ogra> i think 1400x900
<RichEd> is the classmate aspect ratio the same as the 1400xsomething ?
 * RichEd calculates quickly
<ogra> yes
<RichEd> that would make it 1400x840 = 800x480 scaled up
<ogra> sigh
 * ogra goes looking
<RichEd> okay ... I'll get jill started ... just confirmed the final artwork deadline is March 13th
<ogra> its 1280x800
<RichEd> ogra shall I ask her to work towards Feb 14th as her 1st submission to us ... that is artwork deadline one on the schedule
<ogra> to have *something* basic that would be great, yes
<ogra> i think we can let it slightly slip as we always did
<ogra> so she doesnt get to much under pressure
 * RichEd smiles ... but 14 feb is a month away ... no harm in getting in line with the official schedule
<RichEd> okay ... on to web sites ... highvoltage updated the www.ubuntu.org web site theme
<RichEd> he said some minor tweaks are still needed ... but overall it looks quite good
<pips1> big applause!
<RichEd> we just need to update and add fresh content now so that it is more than just a new skin
 * pips1 checks out the site
<highvoltage> eek, edubuntu meeting
 * highvoltage should make a script that hilights him at the beginning of the meeting
<highvoltage> sorry for being late (again)
<pips1> eek, the template breaks in a few places
<highvoltage> pips1: please note all any breakages, so that we can fix it either ourselvesor let news2000 know about it
<RichEd> highvoltage & pips1 : suggestions on how to formalise the testing and repairs / changes ?
<pips1> there is a launchpad project set up already, isn't there?
<ogra> highvoltage, make your script monitor ubotu and catch: "Current meeting: Edubuntu"
<pips1> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~newz/fridge/fridge-theme-v2
<highvoltage> ogra: cool, thanks for the tip
<highvoltage> RichEd: yes, filing bugs on launchpad would be best, I think under the edubuntu website team
<highvoltage> RichEd: I think all the improvements and ideas should be files there, so that we can keep better track of it
<RichEd> highvoltage: for testing is it a matter of someone going through all links ... can we formalise any process to test & check off ?
<RichEd> rather than waiting for "broken" reports which may or may not be filed
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok, we can do that
<pips1> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/
<pips1> erm
<highvoltage> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-website
<pips1> rather:
<pips1> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website
<pips1> oh dear
<highvoltage> hmm, now that I think about it, we could probably generate a checklist that would be relevant to all the *buntu sites
<highvoltage> there's the same "basics" that they all should have, and should be working
<pips1> I see several supmitted bugs there that haven't been looked at...
<pips1> *submitted
<highvoltage> on the edubuntu page?
<highvoltage> or are you still on the ubuntu one?
<highvoltage> on https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-website/ it says "There are currently no open bugs."
<pips1> hmm
<pips1> well, I think the new bugs need to be  confirmed first before they appear in that overview listing
<pips1> look at the new bugs on this page:
<pips1> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bugs
<flint> highvoltage,Go Jonathan!
<pips1> anyway. I haven't been monitoring the bug tracker at all, I must admit
<highvoltage> hey mr flint!
<pips1> I'm not even subscribed to it...
<highvoltage> flint: RichEd was asking about the various cookbook attempts, have you ever sent your version to him?
<flint> highvoltage, I have, but it was a year ago.  I would need to heavily revise it.  Also I feel that your help file seems to cover the subject. don't you?
<highvoltage> is edge.launchpad.net using the same database as launchpad.net?
<flint> highvoltage, Oliver showed me this effort and I am most pleased with it.
<highvoltage> flint: oh no, that help file is obsolete already
<highvoltage> flint: ah, must be sbalneav's documentation
<flint> highvoltage, hm let me revisit my look...
<ogra> highvoltage, it is
<ogra> highvoltage, the big prob we have that the online export still didnt happen
<ogra> and we have pretty broken documentation out on the webpage
<ogra> the shipped edubuntu handbook is fine though
<highvoltage> ogra: should we remove all e all docs from the site and start with a clean slate? ie, sbalneav's work?
<pips1> ogra: what do you mean by 'online export' ?
<ogra> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/
<ogra> i see its gone now
<flint> ogra, I like not having any pressure on my contributing, I will take some time and reopen that project.
<pips1> indeed, it's gone!
<ogra> pips1, hmm, no it isnt
<ogra> if you go up to /edubuntu you cn click through
<ogra> but its the proper export now \o/ yay
<ogra> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/
<ogra> there we go
<ogra> :))))
<pips1> ah, now the proper URL is http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/
<ogra> right
<flint> pips1, this is a very sweet piece...
<pips1> I'll fix that link on edubunt.org right away
<highvoltage> pips1: great
<ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFAQ fixed
<ogra> if the wiki ever finishes :/
<flint> highvoltage, Thanks for the nudge, I have been thinking about that documentation set and how to do something neat with it.  Watch that space.
<pips1> I have corrected the link to the edubuntu handbook
<ogra> should we move on ?
<ogra> (where is RichEd )
<highvoltage> hmm, seems to have dissappeared
<emgent> @now
<highvoltage> our power supplier under high load, so there is load shedding in certain areas, maybe he is without electricity.
<ogra> there he is :)
<ogra> lots of him :)
<ogra> RichEd, anything else from your side ?
<RichEd> bah humbug ... ADSL daily reset took 15 mins
<ogra> we just discovered that the online version of the edubuntu handbook is finally up to date
<RichEd> excellent :)
<ogra> beyond that you didnt miss anythin i think
<ogra> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/
<RichEd> can we add that to the front web page & maybe the channel topic ?
<RichEd> Community / Partnering:
<RichEd> the educonlinux project web site is now up and available for those who may be interested
<RichEd> this is the project largely driving the edubuntu content server requirement
<RichEd> see here:
<ogra> pips1 has fixed the edubuntu.org link, i fixed the FAQ
<RichEd> http://www.educonlinux.eu/
<ogra> (its a bit long for the channel topic though)
<RichEd> moodle on top of edubuntu, with partners working on moodle to develop teaching lessons
<ogra> RichEd, btw, i'd prefer to have the restricted area name based
<RichEd> ogra ... it will be :) need to set up process for permissions etc.
<RichEd> (next stage)
<ogra> i.e. have restricted.educonlinux.org istead of www.educonlinux.org/whatever/
<ogra> hiding the paths adds a tad security
<RichEd> anyone who has any questions or interest can mail me directly ... if there is any juicy news as we move forwards I announce here
<RichEd> --- that's all from me for today ---
<ogra> everyone cheer for RichEd becoming php programmer btw :)
<RichEd> ogra: i only uploaded the content and tweaked ... i used to do .asp and vb in a past life
<RichEd> so same same but different as they say in thailand
<ogra> tastes like chicken ?
<ogra> :)
<pips1> hehe
<RichEd> opening to the floor ... anyone else with news / issues / questions
<pips1> I've already fixed a couple of things on the edubuntu.org site and am in the process of attending those bug reports
<pips1> however, how can I close bugs on Launchpad ? do I need a special status / role for the edubuntu-website "product"?
<pips1> highvoltage: ?
<ogra> you mark them fix released or invalid
<highvoltage> sorry, back
<pips1> highvoltage: can you grant me admin priviledges for the 'edubuntu website' product on Launchpad?
<pips1> I want to close the bugs I fixed
<highvoltage> pips1: you don't need special permaissions, you may close bugs
<pips1> oh
<ogra> pips1, note that you need to click on the status nowadays to edit, not on the package name anymore
<pips1> ok
<highvoltage> pips1: just give me a chance to go over them in a few mins, I know most of them can be marked as obsoleted
<RichEd> shall we wrap up then ?
<ogra> anything else ? or can we close ?
<ogra> heh
<pips1> last question: will there be an edubuntu summit before/after/during the next ubuntu developer summit
<pips1> ?
<ogra> they will likely happen together if tehre is an educational event
<highvoltage> pips1: yes, will do
<RichEd> pips1: we still need to discuss that internally ... i'll bring it up next time we chat to the management
<RichEd> not sure if UDS is the best education forum for teachers etc.
<pips1> on HardyReleaseSchedule I see the tentative date for UDS is May 22nd. Is that still so? Or any news about a change of date?
<RichEd> may be better to keep UDs more tech & spec and have an edu summit more aligned to teachers and education needs, bringing in large deployment representatives ... like macedonia, guadalinex, georgia
<RichEd> pips1: that date is the best info we have :)
<pips1> right
<highvoltage> pips1: hmm, you're already an admin
<pips1> admin for what?
<ogra> well, given that there is often overlap it would make sense to have an edu conf right attached to a UDS though
<ogra> like two days inadvance or after the UDS
<highvoltage> the edubuntu-website team.
<ogra> but we'll hear from management i guess :)
<pips1> perhaps we can continue to discuss the UES on #edubuntu and close the meeting...?
<ogra> ++
<ogra> going once
<ogra> going twice
<RichEd> pips1: okay
<ogra> adjourned ....
 * ogra goes for coffee
<RichEd> thanks ogra pips1 highvoltage stgraber flint
<highvoltage> yes, thanks, and sorry for split attention, furious multitasking here
<pips1> heh
<pips1> I don't really have time in the first place, but what the heck
<pips1> :-/
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<heno> bdmurray, pedro_, ogasawara: meeting ping
<ogasawara> heno: hi :)
<pedro_> hello!
<heno> hey folks!
<bdmurray> here but it feels early
<davmor2> LO
<pedro_> hey liw
<liw> hi
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:59. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> [TOPIC] QA Today: OpenOffice bug day and test automation development in #ubuntu-testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Today: OpenOffice bug day and test automation development in #ubuntu-testing
<heno> again, mainly FYI
<heno> any points needing discussion here?
<davmor2> how goes the OO.o buggin'
<stgraber> hello
<bdmurray> pedro_: have you tried that gm script?
<liw> heno, I could paste the urls for the record
<stgraber> I'm currently at the station, will be home in 35min
<heno> liw: please do
<liw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/DogtailTutorial https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Coverage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/ScriptingGuide https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/LimitationsOfDogtail
<liw> hmm... no, not like that
<heno> stgraber: ok, see you :)
<pedro_> bdmurray: not yet, I'm adding in the old way the tags by now
<liw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation
<liw> that's the main page, from which sub-pages are linked
<bdmurray> I'm hurt
<heno> bdmurray: as in blood on the keyboard?
<bdmurray> heno: no as in my feelings ;)  I'll get over it though
<heno> good news :)
<heno> ok, moving on
<heno> [TOPIC] Cleanup and presentation of qa-hardy-list
<MootBot> New Topic:  Cleanup and presentation of qa-hardy-list
<heno> A few bugs there are not triaged, in the new state and the LP listing is quite poor with lots of dupes
<davmor2> where we on about sorry?
<heno> I can go through and triage the lagging ones
<heno> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=qa-hardy-list
<heno> ogasawara: would it be possible to create a listing like the kernel one for these?
<ogasawara> heno: sure.  it'll just bit a bit long.
<heno> It will be a bit more tidy when we present it to the dev teams
<heno> your kernel list isn't sorted by anything right?
<ogasawara> heno: nope
<heno> what should we sort by, assignee?
<heno> one nice feature of your listing is that the fixed bugs stay on the page (at the bottom)
<heno> ogasawara: how much manual maintenance do you have with that page now?
<ogasawara> heno: none other than copying over the new list each week
<heno> I assume you have to move bugs to 'fixed' at some point
<ogasawara> nope, they move to 'fixed' automatically
<heno> but with some lag?
<ogasawara> heno: I've got the cron job running every hour on rookery
<heno> because there are some fixed bugs at the top of the list
<ogasawara> ahh, that's on purpose
<heno> right, it a good thing, I just wondered about the mechanics of it
<ogasawara> I think they should be listed at the bottom also
<heno> indeed they are, ok
<heno> [AGREED] heno will re-triage the qa-hardy-list and ogasawara will set up a display page
<MootBot> AGREED received:  heno will re-triage the qa-hardy-list and ogasawara will set up a display page
<davmor2> it would be easier if they could just be listed by the level of fixedness :)
<heno> ogasawara: let's take the implementation to email
<davmor2> new at the top fixed at the bottom
<heno> davmor2: the state, yeah that works too
<ogasawara> I can put together a few prototypes and we can go from there
<heno> btw, for ref http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/hardy-buglist.html is the kernel page we talked about above
<heno> [TOPIC] Spec status https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<davmor2> heno that does make it a lot simpler
<ogasawara> developer weather report spec:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/weatherreport/
<heno> shall we just go down the list?
<heno> ogasawara: ooops [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'data/complete_data.txt'
<ogasawara> heno: yah, it's a know issue, you have to hit refresh
<heno> ok, looks good!
<heno> but starting with https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/bug-statistics
<ogasawara> heno: imbrandon and I believe it has to do with the ugle use of files to store the data right now
<heno> we should discuss bug stats further in London
<bdmurray> okay
<heno> some good work has been done on this, but we may have to adjust the spec to fit that
<heno> I'm thinking of the new graph types and display app
<heno> I want to do some thinking about which metrics can help drive development in a good direction
<heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/fixed-bug-verification
<pedro_> are we using the test case for iso testing ?
<pedro_> I haven't seen a single one where the iso-testing tag has been added
<heno> status is 'not started' but some tagging work has been done
<heno> have we seen any TEST CASE: blocks?
<bdmurray> I wanted to review the iso-testing bugs so could take a look and add them where possible
<heno> pedro_: would you say any of these bugs are suitable to test automation?
<heno> we may soon have the ability to do that
<pedro_> heno: yeah, I'd like to see the list first
<heno> ok, lets review this in london
<pedro_> ok cool
<heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-automated-tests
<heno> we touched on this earlier
<heno> Roadmap is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Roadmap
<heno> liw: is that still a realistic plan?
<heno> we missed the Alpha 3 milestone by a bit (as expected) but I think we have made good progress since
<liw> heno, I suspect not, since it's taking so long to get dogtail work well for us (given that we're abusing it in unintended ways :)
<liw> heno, but things might go faster at the sprint, though, with greater availability and interpersonal bandwidth
<heno> I've been playing with dogtail+ubuquity today, without much luck
<davmor2> heno: I think a more realistic goal would be to just get as many useable scripts together first
<heno> yeah, we need to get help from Evan and Luke on that
<liw> I'm working on getting the gthumb and nautilus scripts working at all for me :( (l10n issues)
<liw> but once I do, I expect to get a simple test runner written up quickly
<pedro_> liw: i can send you them in Spanish ;-)
<heno> davmor2: ubiquity is quite important WRT ISO testing though
<liw> pedro_, I'm not sure that'll help in my fi_FI locale :)
<liw> but I'll set up an emulated environment for running the scripts, with an English speaking locale, so that should fix things
<heno> liw: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/package-level-tests <- shall we consider this complete for Hardy
<heno> pending a DC server for it
<liw> heno, once the stuff is running in the DC, yes
<heno> ok
<heno> and https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/self-testing-desktop ? Shall we roll that over to Hardy+1?
<liw> I suspect that is going to have to happen :(
<davmor2> hell yes
<heno> getting stuff into the distro will get more difficult closer to release
<liw> yeah
<heno> ok, I'll just do that today and we'll move on
<davmor2> you'll be best off get that in as early as possible in the next release to be honest
<heno> that brings us back to https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/developer-weather-report
<heno> we'll want to display that on qa.u.c at some point
<ogasawara> ok that should be simple enough
<heno> that page will serve nicely for discussions in London though
<ogasawara> yes, I'd like to get feedback at the sprint
<heno> [I'm skipping the informational specs]
<liw> ogasawara, incidentally, there's a proposal to make piuparts output stuff so that the Debian Package Tracking System, which is a bit similar to the weather report (but more geared to packages) could show piuparts results: http://wiki.debian.org/piuparts#head-a2e5fe9cd411e0ea1a8d56e351c70ff60a1e9c5d -- we could discuss something like that for Ubuntu as well
<stgraber> re
<heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-website
<heno> stgraber: looking at spec status
<heno> would you say that's implemented?
<stgraber> no, we are stil missing some major parts
<stgraber> LP integration will likely not be done for Hardy but I still have some changes to do for Hardy
<stgraber> https://wiki.stgraber.org/UbuntuQA/QAWebsite/TODO
<ogasawara> liw: sounds good, lets get together next week to iron out some details
<stgraber> that's the current status of this spec
<liw> ogasawara, ack
<heno> ok, thanks.
<stgraber> the security part is getting better and better, remaining bits are mainly UI stuff and backend (syncing blueprints)
<stgraber> + the abillity to get the list of builds from cdimage that I'm still waiting on for some major rework of the download info page
<heno> stgraber: should some things be moved on to a new spec for Hardy+1?
<stgraber> yes, LP integration and XML-RPC should be moved for Hardy+1
<stgraber> so should the QA-Feedback spec
<heno> ok, let's do that
<heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-website-tokamak implemented?
<heno> we just haven't put it to proper use yet
<stgraber> You should ask nand about this one, I don't think it's been entirely implemented, we still have some minor remaining bits (let me have a look at his todolist)
<stgraber> https://wiki.stgraber.org/UbuntuQA/QAPoll/TODO
<stgraber> so mainly UI stuff for him as well
<heno> there may be a few missing details, but on the whole it's up and running
<heno> and looking very good :)
<stgraber> QA-Website and QA-Poll will soon be implemented, QA-Tracker is mainly stuck on this .manifest file on cdimage
<heno> yeah, I'll grab the release team about that next week
<stgraber> the remaining bits are admin UIs for things like adding a website, products, testcases, menu links, ...
<heno> that's it for specs
<heno> [TOPIC] http://qa.ubuntu.com frontpage, what do you want on it ?
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://qa.ubuntu.com frontpage, what do you want on it ?
<bdmurray> bugs with more than 5 subscribers is missing
<stgraber> ok, so we currently have a basic website listing + some links
<bdmurray> in the Useful area
<heno> we should probably remove the not-yet active features
<stgraber> I would like to have an improved web page, showing some stats, ...
<liw> that's where the weather report is going to be, is it?
<heno> I guess http://server.qa.ubuntu.com/ is not in use ATM for example
<stgraber> liw: "be" maybe not, but "shown" possibly, looks like the good place for it at least
<stgraber> heno: well, they requested it and I have created it, now it's up to them to send me a list of product and testcases so they can start using it ...
<liw> depending on the size of the weather report, it might perhaps make sense to have a mini-report on qa.ubuntu.com with a link to the full page
<heno> liw: I think we should pull the full page into qa.u.c
<heno> you should be able to drill down to details from a simple summary page
<stgraber> I'm thinking of some kind of block layout, with one part for the bugs (links to the different bug stats), another with the weather report, another with some wiki links (bug day, Ubuntu bugcontrol team, ...)
<heno> stgraber: how do we submit layout ideas, in HTML? or shall we mock it up in a wiki page to play with possibilities?
<stgraber> well having something useful as it's supposed to be our main page
<stgraber> html may be better as you can play with the layout
<heno> we could make use of the left hand menu space too
<stgraber> we can also create a wiki page containing the list of wanted items and attached the mockups
<heno> ok, so contributions are welcome :)
<heno> a wiki page allows for comments too; let's do that
<heno> any other topics for the meeting?
<stgraber> not from me
<heno> seem not
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:53.
<liw> less than an hour, yay
<heno> thanks everyone!
<bdmurray> Could we add some bug guidelines to iso.qa.ubuntu.com?
<stgraber> the website will be updated with the string fixes from bdmurray + some minor changes (as soon as Ng or another sysadmin does the code sync)
<bdmurray> Like near the Bug ID at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/1227/22
<heno> bdmurray: beyond the ISO release testing procedures and reporting at the top?
<heno> OIC
<bdmurray> heno: Oh, I don't see the "notice message" being an admin(?)
<stgraber> bdmurray: it's only displayed on the main page of the tracker
<heno> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<stgraber> Currently it's : "ISO release testing procedures and reporting."
<bdmurray> So maybe a reminder when entering bug IDs would be helpful
<bdmurray> Did you do a b c?
<heno> bdmurray: help of reporting bugs or adding the # to the tracker?
<bdmurray> heno: reporting bugs like FindRightPackage and writing up a test case
<heno> ok
<bdmurray> Looking at the iso testing bugs I saw one without a package and none with a test case like in the fixed-bug-verification spec
<stgraber> we can add some more links in the notice message or I can add a text message next to the bug entry form though this will take some time as it requires a DB change (so it would be done in the next major update, likely when QA-Poll is released)
<bdmurray> I think having both might be best, the notice would point to BugReportingGuidelines (or something) then the entry form would just have some simple reminders "Did you add a test case?"
<stgraber> well, if we don't need this text to be set by the admin (so not iso specific) I can add it in the next update (as then not requiring any DB change)
<bdmurray> I don't see it being iso specific
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<jjesse_> @time Detroit
<ubotu> Current time in America/Detroit: January 16 2008, 14:19:04 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 18 hours 40 minutes
<zul> @time montreal
<ubotu> Current time in America/Montreal: January 16 2008, 14:26:25 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 18 hours 33 minutes
<mathiaz> Hi all :)
<juliux> hi mathiaz
<sommer> hello
<ScottK> Hello.
 * nealmcb waves
<juliux> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 16 2008, 21:00:45 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 16 hours 59 minutes
<somerville32> :)
<zul> afternoon
<ajmitch> hi
<mathiaz> so dendrobates is not around - let's get started with this new schedule
<mathiaz> ajmitch: hey ! you're around..
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<nealmcb> ajmitch: howdy!
<ajmitch> mathiaz: sort of, yes
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 21:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ajmitch> it being 10AM here, I can actually be online
<mathiaz> the agenda is small
<ScottK> We'll have to move the meeting then.
<zul> heh
<mathiaz> but I've updated the developper section in the Roadmap whith things we're working on
<mathiaz> so I suspect we might have a long status report
<ScottK> mathiaz: Who goes first?
<mathiaz> ScottK: you're agenda item should be reviewed in the developer section
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> Let me know when.
<mathiaz> ScottK: so let's start with the previous action review and then we'll move on with the MIR right after
<ScottK> OK
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> Last meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080108
<mathiaz> bug 153996 has been published to -updates
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153996
<mathiaz> sommer: did you get in touch with the apache debian maintainer wrt default ssl configuration ?
<nealmcb> mathiaz: glad to see that bug resolved - thanks!
<sommer> mathiaz: I beleive so I posted a debdiff to debian bug: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267477
<ubotu> Debian bug 267477 in apache2 "ssl: some easy way to set up an ssl server (as apache-ssl package in apache 1)" [Important,Open]
<sommer> it's an old one, but it should have gone to the debian apache list
<sommer> haven't heard anything back though :(
<mathiaz> sommer: ok.
<sommer> was that the correct procedure or should I email one of them direct?
<mathiaz> sommer: it may take some time.
<mathiaz> sommer: I think that one of the maintainer started to work on this. It may take a while.
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, I'm not in any rush, just posted the patch to learn some packaging
<mathiaz> sommer: I think you've followed the correct procedure.
<sommer> that and documenting apache and SSL could change if the patch is accepted
<mathiaz> sommer: correct.
<sommer> anyway that action item is done, as far as possible
<mathiaz> sommer: great ! Thanks.
<sommer> np
<mathiaz> sommer: what about JeOS and the server guide ?
<sommer> committed to as a section in the guide
<mathiaz> sommer: cool :)
<sommer> one thing to note is that when Hardy is released, depending on the publisher the article may need to be removed like the wiki article
<mathiaz> so it seems that all the actions from last meeting have been done
<somerville32> \o/
<nealmcb> we talked about ebox also
<mathiaz> sommer: I thought that the article would be used as a base for documenting JeOS.
<sommer> mathiaz: yep, but nijaba mentioned that the publisher didn't want the wiki article up while it was on their site as well
<mathiaz> nealmcb: yes. I haven't heard anything about upstream.
<mathiaz> soren: ^^ ?
<sommer> so I thought I'd mention about the web site
<sommer> probably not a big deal, though
<soren> Sorry, I got distracted.
<mathiaz> sommer: hum... I wouldn't put a link to the website article in the documentation.
<mathiaz> sommer: may be you should discuss this with the documentation team.
<soren> mathiaz: About the article? AFAIK, the publisher hasn't published the article yet.
<mathiaz> soren: ebox
<soren> ebox, right.
<soren> I tried (today) to get a hold of the project manager to see if he could stop by this meeting, but I didn't catch him. Sorry.
<mathiaz> nealmcb asked about an update on the ebox front last week
<jjesse_> sorry haven't been paying attention to the mtg :(
<soren> I'll send him an e-mail after this meeting asking for a status. I'll CC the mailing list.
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will email the ebox project manager to get an update about ebox.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will email the ebox project manager to get an update about ebox.
<nealmcb> I think getting them to come to a meeting would be even better than an update
<mathiaz> jjesse_: any comments on the JeOS tutorial integration with the server guide ?
 * soren kicks himself for not following up on it
<soren> nealmcb: I'll ask for both.
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> sommer: I'm not sure that the JeOS tutorial could be used as a base for the server guide chapter
<mathiaz> sommer: If there are some issues with the publisher.
<jjesse_> mathiaz: i would agree with that
<sommer> mathiaz: okay, I'm trying to find the log
<jjesse_> silly question is the JeOS and server guide licensed under the same?
<sommer> mathiaz: should I remove it from the repo then?
<sommer> jjesse_: yep
<mathiaz> sommer: which license is it ?
<jjesse_> CC-BY-SA for a ubuntu docs
<sommer> mathiaz: from what I remember the issue was the wiki article, may be published and while it's published they didn't want the wiki article up
<jjesse_> all ubuntu-docs
<sommer> mathiaz: whatever the wiki is licensed under I assume
<sommer> once the article is off their site it is going to be replaced in the wiki
<mathiaz> considering that nijaba wrote the article, he is the best person to ask about htis
<sommer> if that makes sense
<nealmcb> sommer: doing that as a courtesy on the wiki is one thing.  but I'm thinking the server guide is a bigger deal, don't want to withdraw it there.  hopefully the timing won't overlap as mch
<mathiaz> sommer: could you figure out this issue with nijaba ?
<sommer> nealmcb: sure, and right now there isn't an issue because it's not on the we anywhere
<sommer> mathiaz: sure
<mathiaz> sommer: great thanks :)
<sommer> I just wanted to give a heads up that if the article is in the server guide eventually it will be on the site
<jjesse_> sommer: let me know if i can help on that
<sommer> jjesse_: sure will do
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer will discuss with nijaba whether the JeOS tutorial can be included in the server guide wrt to the publisher requirements.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will discuss with nijaba whether the JeOS tutorial can be included in the server guide wrt to the publisher requirements.
<mathiaz> Anything else related to last meeting ?
 * sommer thinks thats it
<mathiaz> allright then - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<ajmitch> and a nice big roadmap it is
<mathiaz> Let's start with the developer section as I've updated it with a list of current project we're working on.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-1102ad06b7ddea90507e5e0bee07d48a27278f74
<mathiaz> Let's start with the MIR process, as ScottK put it up on the agenda
<ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
<ScottK> Is where the list is.
<ScottK> We've ~1 month to feature freeze, so if stuff is going to get in, people need to get cracking.
<ScottK> There was a lot of discussion for this at UDS, but not very many people have worked on it since.
<mathiaz> Fabio started to work on some MIRs.
<ScottK> Additionally, I think one developer ought not reject packages that the group thought were good at UDS.
<ScottK> Yes.
<ScottK> And I don't think he should unilterally mark some rejected.
<mathiaz> ScottK: do you have example of such rejection ?
<ScottK> mathiaz: See the wiki page ^^^
<nealmcb> There has been a lot of calendar discussion recently, e.g. Darwin Calendar Server.  Not yet packaged at all, so I guess that would be the first goal, but what is the calendar server story for main?
<soren> nealmcb: There is none.
<mathiaz> ScottK: yes.
<mathiaz> ScottK: Well - I think the rejection came from the MIR writting process.
<zul> wasnt there an announcement of open-xchange for ubuntu a week ago or something?
<ScottK> Was if Fabio that rejected them or ubuntu-mir?
<mathiaz> ScottK: There are critirias that are used to include package in main.
<ScottK> If it was ubuntu-mir, then I'm totally fine with it.
<mathiaz> ScottK: I think it was Fabio.
<mathiaz> ScottK: OTOH Fabio knows the environement very well.
<ScottK> It may be that someone felt strongly enough about some of these to pick up upstream maintenance.  I don't know.
<ScottK> Yes, but we decided what went on the list as a team and ought to do the same with them coming off.
<mathiaz> ScottK: So I'd trust him when he states rejected.
<mathiaz> ScottK: yes. I see your point.
<ScottK> mathiaz: OK.  My only knowlege of him is when he uploaded an unpatched openssl097 to partner, so I may not have a fair view of him.
<mathiaz> ScottK: so - what about sending an email to ubuntu-server to discuss the rejection
<ScottK> mathiaz: I think Fabio should do that.
<mathiaz> ScottK: He's been involved with Ubuntu since the very begining of the project.
<nxvl_work> fine, i did't miss all the meeting :D
<zul> ScottK: having worked with fabio alot I truse his judgement but yeah some discussion is probably needed
<ScottK> Then he shouldn't have any problem discussing this in a community forum.
<mathiaz> ScottK: yop. I'll ping him.
<nxvl_work> what are we talking about?
<ScottK> Great.
<ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will talk to fabio about rejecting package from the MIR list.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will talk to fabio about rejecting package from the MIR list.
<ScottK> I will just mention that I ended up having the split amavisd-new.
<ScottK> I think that eventually we need to bring libmilter into Main so that we can have supported milters with Postfix, but it ought to be spec'ed.  I plan to propose if for Hardy+1
<ScottK> That's all I had.
<nealmcb> any thoughts on calendar options?
<sommer> can anyone do MIRs or do you need to be a MOTU?
<mathiaz> ScottK: great - thanks for your work on amavis
<ScottK> sommer: Anyone.
<mathiaz> sommer: anyone can do it.
<sommer> cool, just wanted to make sure
 * ScottK wants some kind of gold star award for the 8 MIRs I had to do for depends.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: well - it seems there are multiple option. But it may too late to have something for Hardy
 * sommer High Fives ScottK
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CalendarServer
<mathiaz> nealmcb: feature freeze is one month.
 * nxvl_work gives ScottK a Gold Star sticker and put it in his head
<nxvl_work> :P
<ScottK> Thanks.
<ScottK> Not to mention getting infinity to fix an sbuild bug so one of them would build too....
<nealmcb> mathiaz: yeah - I would put ebox much higher in the priority queue - but hoping someone with calendar passion wanders along
<mathiaz> nealmcb: that looks like an How-To
<ScottK> We can move on, I'm finished griping.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: right - I was told there was a request-to-package bug but it hasn't been added I think
<nealmcb> ScottK: :-)
<mathiaz> soren: can you give us a quick update about your work on virtualization on the host side ?
<soren> mathiaz: Er.. I'll blog about it later this evening or tomorrow morning. I can send it to the list as well, but I'm really not that keen on explaining everything twice, if that's ok with everyone?
<soren> Short version: It rocks.
<nxvl_work> +1 for me
<mathiaz> soren: WFM. Could you copy ubuntu-server ?
<zul> btw if anyone cares I have Xen mostly working on hardy
<soren> mathiaz: That was the "send it to the list as well" bit :)
 * nealmcb cheers for zul
<ajmitch> zul: good
<soren> zul: Coolness.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will blog and post a mail to ubuntu-server about the current status of virtualization in Hardy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will blog and post a mail to ubuntu-server about the current status of virtualization in Hardy
<mathiaz> zul: what's the state of Xen ?
<zul> mathiaz: its mostly packaged and sitting in new i have to push out a kernel
<mathiaz> zul: are you tracking this in a wiki page somewhere ?
<zul> mathiaz: no but I could do that
<nxvl_work> zul: it will be better so anyone can help you
<mathiaz> zul: It could be usefull to put something on the Roadmap about this
<soren> zul: Will it be part of the kernel builds or will you have a separate source package that depends on linux-source-* and so on?
<nxvl_work> zul: so the ones who are interested on it, can easy know the state of it
<zul> soren: it will be apart of the kernel-builds
<zul> mathiaz: not a problem
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will an item to the Roadmap about Xen integration in Hardy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will an item to the Roadmap about Xen integration in Hardy
<soren> zul: A'ight.
<nealmcb> zul similar to the fedora approach?  are they just doing paravirt?
<zul> nealmcb: no it was taken for suse the fedora approach is in a state of floax right now
<nealmcb> taken from suse?
<zul> nealmcb: dom0 is the suse patches for 2.6.24
<nealmcb> got it
<mathiaz> soren: any news about JeOS ?
 * nealmcb hates to see the ongoing churn in multiple ways of doing virtualization in the kernel
<mathiaz> soren: or will your blog post include an update about this also ?
<soren> mathiaz: Nothing that won't be in the aforementioned blog post.
<mathiaz> soren: kwel
<sommer> soren: are you on ubuntu planet?
<mathiaz> soren: what about LTS upgrades testing ?
<soren> mathiaz: Now that my virtualisation stuff is rocking, I'll begin testing all of that. So far, I've only fixed the things when I've stumbled upon them. I haven't been doing anything systematic about it yet.
<soren> I know that mvo is doing a lot of that as well, so I'll coordinate with him next week, I guess.
<mathiaz> soren: Yeah - he is doing a lot with this.
 * sommer volenteers to help with that if needed
<sommer> help testing that is
<mathiaz> soren: IIRC the task is about tracking the state testing, rather than doing everything.
<mathiaz> soren: this is one way to get involved in the server team.
<soren> mathiaz: Well, that's true.
<mathiaz> soren: any ideas about organizing this ?
<soren> mathiaz: I'll devise a plan and try to make it easy to split up so that more people can help.
 * nxvl_work volenteers to help testing
<mathiaz> soren: great.
<soren> mathiaz: I'm thinking wiki pages with list of packages and a list of issues that can arise (bad config upgrades, files moving from package to package without appropriate c/r/p's, etc.)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will devise a plan for tracking upgrades testing.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will devise a plan for tracking upgrades testing.
 * soren looks at his growing todo list and sobs
<soren> Oh, well. Sleep is for the weak.
<mathiaz> soren: yeah. I think that spliting by package is a good thing.
<mathiaz> soren: Documenting how to setup a upgrade testing environement would also help
<ajmitch> soren: 'delegate'
<nxvl_work> soren: i read there are researches on the development of a pill which substitutes de sleep time
<soren> ajmitch: That was the word I was looking for :)
<ajmitch> soren: minions? :)
 * nealmcb lol
<soren> nxvl_work: I heard about a guy in Thailand who hasn't slept for 32 years. He's my hero.
<nxvl_work> give more caffeine i can sleep when i'm dead
<soren> nxvl_work: He tried pills and alcohol, but the closest he's gotten to sleep is light drowsiness.
<soren> I so need to learn that.
<mathiaz> jdstrand: how is the ubuntu firewall going ?
<jdstrand> pretty well
<somerville32> soren, I wonder if it is genetic
<jdstrand> I updated the wiki today with its status and what's implemented
<jdstrand> I also uploaded to archive today
<soren> jdstrand: I heard rumours something has been uploaded
<nxvl_work> jdstrand: can you pass the link please
<soren> jdstrand: Ooh, shiny.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall
<nxvl_work> thanks
<mathiaz> jdstrand: is there some documentation ?
<jdstrand> but there was a bug for mostly allow type firewalls that will be fixed in the next upload
<jdstrand> mathiaz: there is an excellent manpage as well as the README
 * ajmitch sees a couple of roadmap items still unassigned
<soren> ajmitch: Yeah. We've saved them for you.
<soren> ajmitch: Get to work.
<soren> :p
<ajmitch> yay
 * soren hugs ajmitch 
 * ajmitch looks for those pills & alcohol
<soren> You need to put them in reverse, though.
<soren> Hey, there's a thought.
<mathiaz> jdstrand: it seems that it's ready for more widespread usage
<mathiaz> jdstrand: or testing
<nealmcb> jdstrand: is this a new firewall tool?
<jdstrand> yes-- that was why I uploaded it
<jdstrand> nealmcb: yes.  it came up at UDS to have a host-based firewall tool
<jdstrand> it is not disimiliar to what redhat offers at this point
<mathiaz> jdstrand: what's your plan for more widespread testing ?
<jdstrand> however, it is the foundation for future improvements like package integration and more advanced firewalling
<jdstrand> it will probably integrate with shorewall
<jdstrand> this is all post hardy
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I wanted to get that fixed package uploaded (which I have to wait for someone to get it into universe)
<jdstrand> then send an email to ubuntu-devel announcing it
<mathiaz> jdstrand: you should cc ubuntu-server
<jdstrand> ok
<sommer> I can help test and document, firewall section needs updated anyway
<mathiaz> jdstrand: also make sure that it will be mentioned in the release notes of the next alpha.
<mathiaz> jdstrand: even if it's still in universe.
<astabeno> sommer:I can help with that
<mathiaz> [ACTION jdstrand will send an email about ubuntu-firewall on ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server
<jdstrand> mathiaz: should I mention it even though it will be in universe first?  or should I be working on the MIR in parallel?
<sommer> astabeno: very cool
<jdstrand> thanks sommer
<soren> mathiaz: You  missed the trailing ']'..
<mathiaz> [ACTION] astabeno and sommer will take a look at ubuntu firewall while updating the firewall section of the server guide.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  astabeno and sommer will take a look at ubuntu firewall while updating the firewall section of the server guide.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] jdstrand will send an email about ubuntu-firewall on ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand will send an email about ubuntu-firewall on ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server
<mathiaz> soren: thanks :)
<nxvl_work> i will test the ufw
<nxvl_work> and try to help on developing
<mathiaz> jdstrand: I wouldn't start on the MIR yet.
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I figured-- I just wasn't sure about the Alpha part and not being in main, but that's cool
<mathiaz> jdstrand: I'd first get some testing done. Depending on how tings work, you could write a MIR a week before FeatureFreeze.
<ajmitch> that could be cutting it close
<nxvl_work> jdstrand: did i need to send you the patches by mail=
<mathiaz> jdstrand: I think the idea is to make some noise about it.
<ajmitch> unless you know the right people :)
<nealmcb> jdstrand: so it is actually called ufw, not ubuntu-firewall, right?  the latter is the spec?
<mathiaz> nxvl_work: patches by mail is an option. The code is maintained in a bzr branch on LP.
<jdstrand> nxvl_work: it is bzr
<mathiaz> nxvl_work: so you could also branch on LP and submit it to jdstrand
<jdstrand> nealmcb: correct-- for Uncomplicated Firewall
<nealmcb> :-)
<nealmcb> the holy grail!!
<nxvl_work> jdstrand: but i can't upload them
<mathiaz> jdstrand:  is this name already taken by a project ?
<jdstrand> nealmcb: we'll see
<nxvl_work> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~jamie-strandboge/ufw/trunk
<jdstrand> mathiaz: none I could find
<nxvl_work> oh, on my own LP branch you mean, right
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 16 2008, 22:06:59 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 15 hours 53 minutes
 * nealmcb is worried about yet more firewalls, but agrees that something that ties into package metadata can be helpful
<jdstrand> nealmcb: I agree, and they are mostly too hard for the average user
<jdstrand> nealmcb: the goal is to have clear documentation and easy commands to do stuff, but still allow for admins to tweak to their hearts content
<mathiaz> keescook: how is security going in Hardy ?
<ajmitch> so secure he can't hear you?
<nealmcb> jdstrand: hopefully the united farm workers won't think this conflicts with their picket-line technology
<ajmitch> from what he blogged, there was certainly some good progress
<jdstrand> mathiaz: was there a particular feature?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: nope. Just to give an update about this things we've discussed at UDS.
<jdstrand> well I know he got alot of the kernel stuff in
<mathiaz> The list is on the Roadmap and it looks good.
<ajmitch> he just posted an update about ASLR yesterday (http://www.outflux.net/blog/archives/2008/01/15/full-aslr-in-hardy/)
<mathiaz> jdstrand: there is one item assigned to you
<jdstrand> ah yes
<mathiaz> jdstrand: tool to set password strength in auth-client-config
<jdstrand> haven't done it yet, but not hard to do
<mathiaz> jdstrand: ok.
<mathiaz> As for the apparmor integration, the next kernel upload should be fully working by default
<mathiaz> for now, you need to use an argument on the command line so that apparmor actually works.
<soren> Clever :)
<mathiaz> soren: did you have a look at iscsi ?
<soren> mathiaz: I did. I'm hoping to get a good deal of coding done on it next week at the sprint. I've got a pretty good idea about what needs doing, now I just need to do it.
<mathiaz> soren: does it involve a lot of coding ?
<nealmcb> sprint?
<soren> mathiaz: The installer stuff does.
<mathiaz> soren: I thought the packages were in good shape.
<mathiaz> soren: ah yes.
<soren> mathiaz: WEll, for reasonable values of "a lot".
<ajmitch> nealmcb: I believe it's the developers sprint, for canonical people
<nealmcb> stroke!  stroke!  stroke!
<ajmitch> ?
<soren> nealmcb: Distro team sprint. It's on the HardyReleaseSchedule page on the wiki.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: yes.
<ajmitch> nealmcb: lots of top secret plotting, I'm sure :)
<keescook> mathiaz: sorry for the delay (fighting with LVM).  security is mostly okay, we have a few things outstanding, pending syncs from Debian
<keescook> mathiaz: AA should be working 100% with -4.7 (which is the currently published release)
<mathiaz> keescook: so what we wanted to do for hardy is almost done.
<mathiaz> keescook: ?
<keescook> mathiaz: yes, very close.
<keescook> I'm going to send out some details about how to use the new "hardening-wrapper" package too
<mathiaz> keescook: great ! I've put the list of things to do in the Roadmap on w.ubuntu.com
<keescook> excellent
<mathiaz> keescook: could you make sure they're included in the release notes for the next alpha ?
<keescook> mathiaz: sure, I can do that.  ("AppArmor works again" ?)  :P
<mathiaz> keescook: I was more talking about the other security features that were integrated.
<keescook> mathiaz: sure, no problemo.  :)
<mathiaz> keescook: and the 'hardening-wrapper' package.
<mathiaz> keescook: is this a real package ?
<keescook> it's real in that it is a package, however it's a massive hack for testing hardening compiler options
<keescook> the goal is to test builds in hardy with the hope of turning it on for real in hardy+1
<mathiaz> keescook: ah ok. That the work related to the tool chain.
<mathiaz> Well - I think we're done for the Developper section.
<mathiaz> sommer: quick update about the documentation ?
<keescook> yeah, or rather the build process.  it's a preamble to the DEB_BUILD* flag work that doko is doing
<sommer> mathiaz: sure
<sommer> couple of quick things
 * ScottK has to run, so I'll see you all later.
<nealmcb> factoid feedback?  => ebox is a web-based GUI interface for administering a server. It is designed to work with Ubuntu/Debian style configuration management, unlike webmin. See the plans for Hardy in  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EboxSpec
<sommer> it's been proposed to move up the documentation freeze to allow for more qa time
 * mathiaz waves at ScottK 
<sommer> here's the oringal message: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-January/010149.html
<sommer> so if there are any more major sections that need updated/added I'd like to get them done before Feb 14th
<mathiaz> sommer: do you have some ideas  about improvements ?
<sommer> the only ones I can think of that are coming up are eBox and OpenLikewise integration
<sommer> from this meeting the Firewall section
<mathiaz> sommer: how is the state of the current section ?
<soren> sommer: eBox has a wealth of documentation of its own.
<sommer> soren: sure, but should we have something about how it's integrated?
<sommer> mathiaz: the firewall section is okay, mostly an intro to iptables
<soren> sommer: Ah. No.
 * doko should file a bug for debian such that the package doesn't enter testing ...
<sommer> soren: Is it going to be marketed as a feature for Hardy?
<soren> sommer: eBox? Depends on how far it gets.
<nealmcb> my fear is that the longer the leadtimes, the less likely that the documentation will be complete and accurate, but I know it is hard either way
<sommer> soren: ah, okay
<mathiaz> sommer: we may wanna wait for the status update of upstream
<sommer> mathiaz: sure, I just wanted to get a list of possible new sections. to allow for the most testing possible
<sommer> I'm just thinking about the Enterprise Networking articles complaining about new features not being well documented :-)
<mathiaz> sommer: Good point.
<sommer> mathiaz: I also added an AppArmor section a while back based mostly on your wiki article... would appreciate a review if you have the time
<mathiaz> sommer: I'd focus one things that have already been uploaded and integrated, such as virtualization, appamor, security features and ubuntu firewall.
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, virtualization isn't covered (except for JeOS)
<sommer> O
<sommer> I'll work on a virtualization section and try to solicite some help on the doc ml
<mathiaz> sommer: yeah - It may be worth adding a section about it, based on the blog post from soren.
<soren> I was just about to say that :)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer will add a section on virtualization based on soren's blog.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will add a section on virtualization based on soren's blog.
<sommer> cool, other than that everything is coming along, just need to test commands and configs for accuracy
<sommer> or however you spell that
<soren> Looks right to me.
<mathiaz> sommer: great ! seems like the server guide is in good shape for hardy. :)
<mathiaz> I think we've covered a lot of stuff for today's meeting.
<mathiaz> Anything else to add ?
<nealmcb> factoid feedback?  => ebox is a web-based GUI interface for administering a server. It is designed to work with Ubuntu/Debian style configuration management, unlike webmin. See the plans for Hardy in  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EboxSpec
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I wouldn't mention webmin.
<nealmcb> well that is what folks search on I'd guess
<nealmcb> or we could update the webmin factoid to point to ebox
<nealmcb> !webmin
<ubotu> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system - Consider "ebox" instead
<nealmcb> done :-)
<nealmcb> but make it "!ebox"
<mathiaz> seems good to me.
<nealmcb> soren?
<mathiaz> you may wanna post it to ubuntu-server, to get more feedback.
<soren> I'm ok with it.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: I already did
<nealmcb> and got none
<mathiaz> nealmcb: ok. then go ahead and add it to ubotuy
<nealmcb> will do
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nealmcb will add an ebox item to the factoids.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb will add an ebox item to the factoids.
<mathiaz> Any other business ?
<sommer> mathiaz: I found the log about the JeOS article: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/12/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<sommer> just fyi
 * sommer looking forward to Hardy
<mathiaz> sommer: ok. thanks.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<sommer> same time, same place?
<nealmcb> yup
<mathiaz> I guess so.
<ajmitch> seems to be a lack of arguments against it
<mathiaz> Next week, same time, same place.
<mathiaz> Thank all for your participation :)
<soren> \o/
<sommer> thank you mathiaz, later all
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:45.
 * ajmitch never did find out how all the ldap stuff was going this time round
<mathiaz> ajmitch: basically, we're waiting for openldap 2.4 to hit the debian archive
<ajmitch> right, the one that works with gnutls, and so you can ship recent libraries?
<mathiaz> ajmitch: yes ! :)
<ajmitch> finally! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-17
<juliux> @berlin
<soren> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 17 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 13:00: MOTU | 23 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 23:30: Forum Council | 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting
<soren> There you go :)
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 17 2008, 12:07:09 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 1 hour 52 minutes
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
 * mvo looks around
 * Iuli hides behind mvo
 * MacSlow hates Python some more today
<MacSlow> everybody needs a hobby :)
<Keybuk> ok, let's get going
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/DevelopmentMeeting/2008-01-17
 * mvo waves
<pitti> hello
<Keybuk> I didn't see any agenda items in the activity summaries, did I miss any?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, gee... I should provide smaller screenshots... I did not think of them showing up in the report like that :)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: heh, that's fine :-)  that's what the report is for
<Keybuk> it's great that they do show up
<MacSlow> Keybuk, well regarding myself I can only think of the seperate emails regarding conferences I sent you... apart form that... I hate python :)
<Keybuk> ok, first up, actions from last week
<Keybuk> ACTION: pitti/seb128 to investigate seahorse package size and reduce it so it can be seeded.
<Keybuk> how did that go?
<pitti> a mere rebuild will chop off 2 MB
<seb128> cdbs depends on fdups was not active
<pitti> (I fixed cdbs)
<seb128> so symlinking magic was not working
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I should have added to my report that I started on fixing the issues with upstream rhythmbox(artdisplay) as they are blocking the work on sparkle and upstream is... busy *shrugg*
<pitti> remaining issue is to build a shared lib to avoid duplicating lots of code four times in the large binaries
<seb128> I've been too busy with GNOME 2.21.5 to investigate if there is a static lib there
<Keybuk> pitti: is that code just linking the same source files?
<Keybuk> or is it a library already?
<pitti> haven't looked yet
<Keybuk> ok
<seb128> doesn't look like a library from a quick look
<seb128> but I didn't really investigate
<Keybuk> is seahorse still not seeded and gnome-keyring-manager seeded instead?
<seb128> yes
<Keybuk> ok; let's add this to the sprint agenda to deal with there
<seb128> right
<pitti> I can do the seed change today, and we worry about the size reduction a bit later
<Keybuk> seb128: my quick examination was that everything was statically linking a libseahorse.a which wasn't installed
<MacSlow> hi mpt
<mpt> hello, sorry, got to get used to these simultaneous LP and Ubuntu meetings
<seb128> pitti: btw speaking about seeding do we need MIR for the things which has been discussed? somebody mailed ubuntu-devel-discuss about those
<Keybuk> I think they should have MIR?
<seb128> Keybuk: ok, might be, I quickly looked at it during the meeting and not sure now
<pitti> seb128: well, we should at least have bugs for them, for the record
<pitti> I checked the packages and they were ok
<seb128> ok, I'll file bugs later
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> ACTION: GUADEC and LCA attendance requests
<Keybuk> I've received two volunteers for the former and one for the latter
<pitti> seb128: cheese already has one, btw (#149275)
<seb128> pitti: ok, will look at bugs before sending a duplicate anyway ;-)
<seb128> who is volunteer for GUADEC?
<Keybuk> GUADEC is 7th-12th July in Istanbul, Turkey
 * MacSlow would like to go to GUADEC
<Keybuk> LCA is the week immediately after the sprint in Melbourne, Australia
 * MacSlow offered to volunteer for LCA, but only if nobody else steps up
<Keybuk> MacSlow: indeed, thanks
<MacSlow> because it literly on the other side of the globe for me *aechtz*
<Keybuk> last chance for LCA volunteers; GUADEC I'd like to have a list by the sprint, so if you'd like to go, please do let me know ASAP so I can decide
<MacSlow> don't we have any down-under person closer?
<Keybuk> MacSlow: surprisingly not in the distro team
<Keybuk> and we're actually sponsors of LCA this year
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: beep.  StevenK is distro, but he'll be in portland that week.
<MacSlow> Keybuk, any pending hires down-under before LCA? ;)
<Keybuk> ah, sorry, yes; he's not there
<Keybuk> ok, next topic
<Keybuk> Sprint Planning
<MacSlow> I would add the still not working browser-by-default for ipod/mpt in rb
<Keybuk> https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Desktop/HardySprint
<MacSlow> I've been in contact with upstream a bit regarding that
<Keybuk> please add any agenda items ASAP
<Keybuk> I'm going to be busy all-day wednesday, as the team leads are getting management training
<MacSlow> done
<Keybuk> and I'll also set some time that week to speak to each of you about your specs and plans for 8.10
 * pitti will add "release 6.06.2" to the agenda
<Keybuk> pitti: mdz would like a couple of hours of your time to discuss how 6.06.2 has taken up your time
<pitti> right, just got the invitation today
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> next item
<Keybuk> usplash
<Keybuk> it falls to our team to maintain this, including handling the incoming bugs
<Keybuk> I realise that it's slightly out of most of our knowledge
<Keybuk> but we need a volunteer to learn how to maintain it and be the bug contact
 * pitti hides, being TIL
<Keybuk> til?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, Matthew Garret wrote that initally?
<Keybuk> MacSlow: yeah, and I've hacked on it too
<pitti> Keybuk: touched-it-last (for some sponsoring of a contributor)
<Keybuk> most of the hard problems are svgalib/bogl problems
<pitti> yeah, took me some hours to fix that 'unreadable text' problem right before gutsy release
<pitti> bit hairy code
<MacSlow> Keybuk, well I know that some fine day we will hopefully be albe to kick it as we'll have Xorg up all the way from boot-up... if I recall some Xorg-folks correctly.
<mpt> yay
<pitti> X in initramfs?
<MacSlow> but that certainly does not help current usplash maintainance I know
<MacSlow> pitti, yes
<MacSlow> pitti, I would have tried that already myself... but I'm totally filled with stuff
<MacSlow> pitti, I talked very briefly with Kristian Hoegsberg about this some time last year
<Keybuk> pitti, MacSlow: could you both look through it at the sprint?
<MacSlow> to be truely solid it will need kenrel-level video-mode switchign or something... don't fully recall all details
<MacSlow> *sigh* I try :)
<Keybuk> ok, please add yourselves as bug contacts
<pitti> ugh, ok
<MacSlow> wÃ¼rgÂ³ :)
<MacSlow> ok
<pitti> MacSlow: 85 bugs to triage for each of us :)
<Keybuk> thanks
<Keybuk> did anyone see anything of note in the activity reports they want to bring up?
<MacSlow> pitti, added bullet-point about usplash to sprint-agend for both of us
<mvo> I'm looking for someone who can help me understanding the glx/dri/X interface
<MacSlow> mvo, Kristian Hoegsberg... although RedHat... but seriously he knows towns about it
<MacSlow> mvo, or Micheal DÃ¤nzer from TungstenGraphics
<MacSlow> mvo, I cannot (yet) offer myself
<MacSlow> but that'll change hopefully
<MacSlow> mvo, I know some of GLX and X... but next to nothing about DRI
<mvo> thanks, michael dÃ¤nzer sounds like a good idea
<mvo> do you know if he is around in irc?
<MacSlow> mvo, you'll find Michael DÃ¤nzer on #xorg-devel on FreeNode-IRC under the nick MrCooper
<mvo> aha, thanks
<MacSlow> mvo, Kristian Hoegsberg is there too as krh... just in case
<pitti> just for sprint planning, does anyone have a laptop with: nvidia graphics, ati graphics, winsoftmodem, broadcom wifi?
<seb128> none of those
<pitti> I'd like to do some driver-manager testing
<mvo> I have one with ati
<mvo> (fglrx)
<MacSlow> mvo, probably Stephane Marchesin (handle: marcheu) too... he's the main developer of nouveau
<pitti> I know a lot of you guys have softmodems (at the last sprint, at least)
<Keybuk> pitti: this has a non-working modem
<pitti> unfortunately my dell doesn't have one
<MacSlow> pitti, nope... all intel here
<pitti> well, at least not one that is compatible with sl-modem-daemon
<pitti> cjwatson has a bcm43xx, AFAIR
<tedg> I have one with nVidia.
<pitti> cool, thanks
 * MacSlow never used the modem in his laptop
<tedg> Which means that for some reason the drop shadows in Compiz are either white or pink...
<Keybuk> pitti: you have the entire office laptop supply at your disposal
<MacSlow> I don't even know what kind of device it is
<cjwatson> yes, I have a Broadcom
<Keybuk> Jane loves it when we steal her laptop for testing
<Keybuk> ok, Any Other Business?
<pitti> Keybuk: ok, I prepare a speech about Totally Rad Hardware Support for getting Jane's :)
<seb128> Keybuk: yes
<MacSlow> tedg, the decorator doesn't work on your nvidia? Uff!
<Keybuk> seb128: go
<mvo> tedg: still with the latest compiz?
<mvo> tedg: it work on my nvidia card here
<seb128> Keybuk: rather just a note, I looked at the new gdm again some days ago, there is no way it'll be ready for hardy
<seb128> Keybuk: still no graphical greeter, no gdmsetup, no gdmflexiserver, no autologic, no settings migration
<Keybuk> MacSlow: this isn't terrible news?
<tedg> mvo: Yeah, just checked, seems I have the latest.  Perhaps it's some setting.
<MacSlow> tedg, that never had issues here either with the decorator and nvidia
<mvo> tedg: we can have a look together on the sprint
<tedg> The pink is very feminine -- perhaps we should make "Linux for Ladies" ;)
<MacSlow> Keybuk, gl stuff not working on nvidia... that's very grim news for me... I love nvidia for their good GL usually
<Keybuk> MacSlow: I mean about gdm
<seb128> Keybuk: and it get almost no testing, redhat has a version from december, mandriva and suse have not updated yet apparently and debian and ubuntu don't have it either
<MacSlow> Keybuk, well the new gdm (face-browser) is targetted for later anyway
<Keybuk> *nods*
<Keybuk> it's on my 8.10 list ;)
<seb128> that's really the bad cycle for a lts :/
<seb128> nautilus is really tricky
<MacSlow> Keybuk, that's were I want to have it in fully polished state too... with all the nice MeMaker and cheese integration mentioned in the spec
<seb128> everybody is going with the rewrittal for GNOME 2.22 but that will a though update
<tedg> Does anyone else have their file dialogs taking a long time to load?  10-20 seconds long?
<seb128> no
<tedg> I think it might because I have a bunch of SSH shares that are in my bookmarks bar.
<seb128> at least not me and we got no bug about it
<MacSlow> tedg, gee... no!
<MacSlow> tedg, only have to ssh-shares
<seb128> it should not try to do anything on those it you don't try to access a share
<tedg> Okay, I'll look into it further, using files causes compiz desaturate my apps.
<Keybuk> ok
<tedg> So, if you get an attachment from me, you know the pain it caused ;)
<Keybuk> any other any other business? :)
<MacSlow> pitti, I added the usplash thing higher up in the list
<Keybuk> ok, sorry, I missed an agenda item
<MacSlow> pitti, I deleted the entry at the bottom (which I assume you added)
<Keybuk>  * Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
<Keybuk> err
<Keybuk>  * Keep tracker enabled for LTS?
<Keybuk> mdz has raised the question of whether we should keep tracker enabled for the LTS
<pitti> MacSlow: I didn't
<Keybuk> given that it's "causing problems"
<seb128> what problems?
<MacSlow> pitti, maybe it was Keybuk
<seb128> did we get lot of bad reviews or comments due to it on gutsy?
<MacSlow> what tracker-problems?
<Keybuk> seb128: performance problems, using lots of memory/cpu/io, etc.
<seb128> I've not read a lot of user complains recently
<MacSlow> I it works as expect here
<seb128> well, now it has an icon which makes easy to know what is going on etc
<MacSlow> I only don't like the tracker-search-reasult dialog
<MacSlow> not looking very HIG-compliant
<Keybuk> let's get some more feedback then
<pitti> hm, that icon is annoying IMHO
<seb128> pitti: the icon or the libnotify excessive use?
<Keybuk> if you're happy that user feedback is good, it may be that mdz is having other problems
<seb128> I've no issue with the icon, I don't like the bubbles though
<pitti> seb128: both actually
<seb128> Keybuk: not really, I was rather asking
<pitti> we already have deskbar applet, no need for yet another icon
<mdz> Keybuk: the last time you were here, you were killall'ing trackerd too
<seb128> I don't know we have anybody looking closely to tracker bugs, etc
<seb128> I've to admin it works correctly on my new laptop where I've copied things progressively
<pitti> upstream himself looks after them (or had done so in gutsy, at least)
 * mpt didn't realize Tracker had any UI outside of Deskbar :-)
<seb128> I've stopped it on my desktop because the initial hit is really annoying
<mdz> it seems to churn every time my desktop is idle, even though I am not adding a lot of new data to index
<MacSlow> seb128, you mean the cat-claw with the magnifier-glas?
<Keybuk> mdz: it might be worth checking whether you have a bug that affected people that upgraded through gutsy development
<mdz> it has always seemed odd to me that deskbar doesn't search immediately
<seb128> mdz: maybe you get lot of mails to index?
<Keybuk> where it would continually index
<mdz> you enter your search terms, and it presents you with a list of options for where you'd like to search
<mdz> so it's always a two-step process to actually find anything
<MacSlow> mpt, it does... the way search results are presented... btw... Deskbar only adds one entry for actually calling the tracker-search tool
<Keybuk> I thought we switched to the live results?
<mpt> yeah, that's a bit lame
<mdz> so my thoughts on tracker based on my personal experience are that it incurs a high overhead for the user without exposing much in the way of interesting functionality
<MacSlow> *cough*
 * MacSlow is still using Gutsy here on his desktop
<MacSlow> *cough.cough*
 * mdz glares at MacSlow
 * MacSlow goes and sits in the corner :)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: so am I
<mdz> Keybuk: live results for a decent subset of the available search backends would make deskbar a lot more useful
<Keybuk> mdz: when did you last reinstall your desktop?
<seb128> mdz: not sure how useful users find it, maybe we should start a discussion on ubuntu-devel-discuss about that?
<MacSlow> mdz, indeed
<mdz> Keybuk: never
<Keybuk> mdz: it really sounds like you have a lot of old settings
 * tedg wants MacSlow to enjoy pink drop shadows too :)
<Keybuk> I'm pretty sure the deskbar defaults are live search now
<seb128> Keybuk: we actived that in gutsy yes
<mdz> I only ever installed this machine once
<MacSlow> tedg, I can set the color of the drop-shaodws to pink :)
<Keybuk> so you must have installed deskbar while the default was non-live search
<mdz> and I didn't change the preferences afaik
<mdz> Keybuk: so? if the default changed, surely I should get the new default
<mpt> As the user base increases, an increasing proportion of users will have old settings
<Keybuk> mdz: no... we've never done that
<mdz> ok, so turning on live search makes it do something, but still doesn't show me the results
<Keybuk> because we have no way of telling whether you didn't change the default because you were happy with it or not
<seb128> Keybuk: well, if there is no user settings the default system changes are used usually
<mdz> the only part of the window which is visible says "search yahoo, search amazon, etc."
<mdz> the tracker results are way at the bottom where they can't be seen
<Keybuk> seb128: yeah, but opening a preferences window is enough to copy them
<seb128> mdz: right, that's the normal situation and I agree it's buggy
<Keybuk> mdz: that's the ordering in the window where you enabled the live search
<Keybuk> ok, let's look at the usability of this at the sprint
<mdz> I think that if users aren't seeing the benefits of tracker, we should disable the indexing by default so that they aren't paying the price anyway
<seb128> mdz: right, how do we figure? start a discussion on the lists?
<Keybuk> mdz: shouldn't we first see if we can make sure that users see the benefits?
<mdz> exposing the functionality better would of course be superior, but that may not be feasible
<mdz> Keybuk: my statement doesn't preclude that
<pitti> like, disable it by default and enable it once the user tries the first search?
<mdz> seb128: that would be a good start
<mdz> seb128: another good idea would be to review it as a user experience
<mdz> and do basic usability testing
<MacSlow> tedg, actually I did that once... very early on... http://macslow.thepimp.net/shots/colored-drop-shadows.png wrote a patch for compiz to do that :)
<seb128> we can do that next week maybe
<MacSlow> tedg, intentially :)
<mdz> deskbar looks pretty easy to customize
<seb128> right
<mdz> so if deskbar became a great interface to tracker, it would probably be worthwhile
<mpt> I'll put it on the agenda then
<seb128> ok, let's work on making that better
<mpt> MacSlow, your windows are bleeding
<Keybuk> as are my eyes
<MacSlow> mpt, jimmac wante to "kill" me for posting such a screenshot :)
<MacSlow> I just wanted to show that one could now color the drop-shadow
<MacSlow> thus I used an extreme color
<ogra> MacSlow, so you could also whiten it on black BG :)
<MacSlow> ogra, indeed
<ogra> cool hack
<MacSlow> ogra, you can to that today still
<tedg> MacSlow: Can you make the drop shadows pulse with the music out of RB? ;)
<ogra> haha
<MacSlow> tedg, now that would be totally useless :)
<ogra> but sexy
 * MacSlow wants client-side drawn window-decorations
<emgent> @now
<seb128> Keybuk: does the decision to use the new nautilus in hardy or not has an impact on your team work? We discussed that during the platform meeting yesterday and that's really tricky
<MacSlow> that would make a lot of cool things possible and save artist a lot of headaches
<tedg> seb128: Would that mean no GTK+ and gio, or just nautilus?
<seb128> tedg: GTK+ has no change for that
<seb128> gio is already in the hardy glib
<seb128> gvfs should be promoted that's no issue
<seb128> libgnomeui has a gio fileselector variant now
<seb128> all that is alright
<seb128> what is tricky is nautilus
<seb128> either we keep the old non maintained code using gnome-vfs
<seb128> or we switch to the new one, what all the other distros seem to do, but that's new code and everything is not ready yet
<MacSlow> this LTS has a very unfortunate timing I think considering the changes going on in GNOME
<seb128> right
<seb128> the issue is that upstream is going with it and integrating other desktop component to use gvfs now
<MacSlow> ?
<MacSlow> isn't gio meant to replace gvfs?
<seb128> MacSlow: things like the bookmarks and gnome-panel places, they will list gvfs shares now
<tedg> gvfs replaces gnome-vfs.  gio wraps gvfs.
<MacSlow> still some parts in gnome write new code using a soon deprecated API?
<Keybuk> seb128: I don't think we're depending on it
<MacSlow> tedg, ah ok
<MacSlow> tedg, thanks for the heads up
<seb128> MacSlow: alright
<seb128> Keybuk: alright, rather
<tedg> gio is the API in GTK+, which allows for backends, one of which is gvfs.
<seb128> gio is in glib rather
<Keybuk> ok, I have another meeting now
<pitti> seems the remainders could be discussed in #ubuntu-desktop?
<MacSlow> hi dholbach
<seb128> pitti: right, not a lot to discuss still though, need testing rather
 * mvo waves
<MacSlow> pitti, seb128: Am I needed for the remaining issue to be discussed?
<seb128> MacSlow: there is no issue to discuss so no, thanks ;-)
<pitti> the stuff above is over my head, too
<pitti> s/over/above/, I think
<MacSlow> ok, I'll return to rb-fixing then
<MacSlow> so long
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<gcleric> bmon
<gcleric> exit
<seele> Web Images Maps News Shopping Gmail more â¼
<seele> oops mt
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-18
<mbamford> word
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
 * persia encourages someone to volunteer to chair the meeting
<soren> o/ Hi, guys.
<proppy> Hi
<dholbach> heya
<lionel> hi all
<TheMuso> Greetings all.
<dholbach> soren: does "o/" mean you volunteered? :)
 * soren runs away, screaming.
<dholbach> if not and nobody else wants to, I can do it
<dholbach> hey sistpoty|work
<sistpoty|work> hi dholbach
<dholbach> ok, let's get started
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dholbach> we have an agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<dholbach> first up is persia
<dholbach> [TOPIC] REVU Day scheduling: Should REVU Days be held on the 4th and 11th of February, or should we stop sooner so as to provide time for the archive admins to process NEW? Also, any suggestions for a last push? It would be unfortunate to have a package be all ready on REVU and not make the archive due to too few reviewers
<MootBot> New Topic:  REVU Day scheduling: Should REVU Days be held on the 4th and 11th of February, or should we stop sooner so as to provide time for the archive admins to process NEW? Also, any suggestions for a last push? It would be unfortunate to have a package be all ready on REVU and not make the archive due to too few reviewers
<persia> In the Gutsy cycle, there was some confusion about whether the deadline for new packages meant the last date on which a package could be uploaded to NEW without a freeze exception, or the last day the archive admins would process a package without a freeze exception.
<persia> My memory of earlier discussions this cycle was that we had agreed that FeatureFreeze was the last day the archive admins would be expected to process source NEW without a freeze exception.
<persia> Based on that understanding, I wonder if we oughtn't have 27 January be the last REVU day, perhaps with some specific packages for which a MOTU has explicit interest, or are needed for a Feature goal receiving attention thereafter, but no scheduled general REVU days.
<persia> Also, there are a fair number of packages still in their final REVU cycles.  If anyone has any ideas about how to best grab those we want for hardy in time for FeatureFreeze, please share.
<dholbach> persia: What do you suggest as deadline?
<soren> FF is the 16th, if memory serve?
<soren> serves?
<dholbach> soren: 14th
<dholbach> Happy Valentines Day :)
<soren> Ok. I think 27th is too conservative.
<persia> 14th I think.  I'm not sure we should impose a deadline, but from informal discussions I understood the archive admins wanted a couple weeks.
<soren> Feb 4th should be plenty of time for NEW processing.
<dholbach> I think 4th should be fine, especially given that exceptions can still be granted by motu-uvf (motu-ff? :))
<TheMuso> 4th sounds good.
<persia> 4th is fine with me.
<dholbach> [AGREED] Feb 4th is deadline for uploading NEW packages.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Feb 4th is deadline for uploading NEW packages.
<persia> Err.  No.
<persia> February 4th is the last regularly scheduled REVU day.
<lionel> 4th looks good. Maybe ask a confirmation to archive admin?
<soren> 13:05:20 < soren> pitti: How does Feb 4th sounds as a (soft) deadline for submitting new packages? That leaves 10 days for NEW processing before FF.
<soren> 13:05:59 < pitti> soren: sounds ok (although the current policy already accounts for processing the backlog)
<lionel> soren :)
<dholbach> ok... persia: what would you like to see as a deadline?
<soren> 4th as a soft deadline is probably sensible. That still leaves time to work out the last few issues that might be raised, and if there's "urgent" stuff, it can still make it.
<persia> dholbach: I don't think the deadline is ours to propose, but rather an archive-admin decision.
<dholbach> Opinions?
 * sistpoty|work agrees with persia
<soren> Well, the deadline we propse it the deadline before which people should submit their stuff if they expect it to be reviewed before FF.
<soren> It's not exactly the deadline for uploading the packages.
<sistpoty|work> soren: so you want rather a "we won't review packages uploaded after <T>" deadline?
<sistpoty|work> (newly uploaded packages even)
<persia> soren: Ah.  I thought you were talking about deadline for upload to the archive.  For upload to REVU, I think 3rd Feb (for inclusion in 4th Feb REVU day) is perfectly sensible.
<dholbach> I'm happy to have the last REVU day on Feb 4th and our "soft deadline" shortly afterwards
<dholbach> to guarantee the archive admins have enough time
<soren> sistpoty|work: Something like that, yes :)
<persia> Also, I think any MOTU interested in a specific package should be free to ignore that deadline for further review, as long as it doesn't annoy the archive-admins.
<sistpoty|work> soren: sounds good :)
<dholbach> OK... what do we agree on now?
 * persia thinks we agree that packages not submitted for the 4th February REVU day do not have a guarantee of review for inclusion in hardy.
<sistpoty|work> how big is the revu backlog atm?
<dholbach> persia: that's good enough
<persia> sistpoty|work: Only two or three packages that didn't get hit in the last REVU day, and about 25-30 that will be part of the next.
<dholbach> [AGREED] packages not submitted for the 4th February REVU day do not have a guarantee of review for inclusion in hardy
<MootBot> AGREED received:  packages not submitted for the 4th February REVU day do not have a guarantee of review for inclusion in hardy
<sistpoty|work> persia: ah, ok
<dholbach> regarding "Also, there are a fair number of packages still in their final REVU cycles.  If anyone has any ideas about how to best grab those we want for hardy in time for FeatureFreeze, please share." - do you think it'd help to have blog entries with a list of those packages to raise interest?
<persia> Anyone have any ideas about how to encourage more reviewers for the next three REVU days?  Lots of packages are close, but it needs more eyes.
<TheMuso> Unfortunately, I won't be around for the january 27th day
<TheMuso> But will do my best to attempt to help with the others
<persia> dholbach: Depends on the goal.  If the goal is to advertise packages interesting to the blogger, sure.  If the goal is to list things, I think the blogger reviewing everything would be more useful.
<dholbach> we can also post the list of packages that are 'nearly there' to ubuntu-motu@ and ubuntu-devel@
<dholbach> there are a lot of people who don't scan REVU regularly
<persia> That sounds sane.  I'll post a list of packages needing review at the start of the next REVU day.
<persia> Any other ideas?
 * pochu waves
<dholbach> that's a great start
 * persia cedes the topic, based on discussion having come to a close
<dholbach> you're right... a blog might probably not adress the right people
<dholbach> ok... sorry I was distracted by another question
<dholbach> moving on
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other business
<dholbach> is there any other business?
<dholbach> going once
<dholbach> twice
<dholbach> [TOPIC] agree on date and time of next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  agree on date and time of next meeting
 * persia proposes 2008 February 1st 20:00 UTC
<dholbach> any opinions on date and time?
 * dholbach will probably not make it
<dholbach> DktrKranz: any opinion on date and time of the next MOTU meeting? (2008 February 1st 20:00 UTC :-))
<DktrKranz> Sounds good for me
<DktrKranz> (and proably will attend ...)
<dholbach> ok... in absence of andbody complaining.... :-)
<dholbach> [AGREED] Next MOTU Meeting is going to be 2008 February 1st 20:00 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Next MOTU Meeting is going to be 2008 February 1st 20:00 UTC
<dholbach> Meeting adjourned - thanks a lot everybody! :)
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:23.
<persia> Who is doing minutes?
<persia> How about announcements for the next meeting?
<dholbach> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20080118_1202.html
<dholbach> I'll do the announcement
 * DktrKranz kicks at himself for being late.
 * dholbach hugs DktrKranz
<persia> DktrKranz: Since you have to read the logs anyway, maybe you want to do minutes?
<DktrKranz> My next car will have wings, I swear!!!
<dholbach> DktrKranz: be sure to post pictures! :)
<DktrKranz> persia, sure.
<dholbach> excellent - thanks a lot :)
 * dholbach hugs persia and DktrKranz :)
<DktrKranz> dholbach, can you remind me where mootbot shortlogs are?
<mruiz> hi all
<dholbach> DktrKranz: if you click on the meeting times it'll take you to the log (http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20080118_1202.html)
<DktrKranz> thanks
<ogra> DktrKranz, http://www.gyrotec.de/
<ogra> they are pretty cheap :)
<persia> DktrKranz: Also, ignore the first "AGREED".
<persia> ogra: Those are too stubby to properly be called wings
<DktrKranz> ogra, nice one. I need to check if Italy permits them, and no more traffic issues \o/
<ogra> persia, it flies (with 200km/h)
<persia> ogra: Yes.  I admit it's a flying car.  I'm just being pedantic and complaining that it's not a car with wings.
<ogra> germany permits them (eastern german police uses them for traffic control)
<persia> When I last lived in the united states, they were permitted for unlicensed use.
<ogra> its not a helicopter .... it doesnt crash if you switch off the engine ;)
<DktrKranz> Is it euro4? So I haven't to pay pollution taxes :)
<ogra> heh
 * sistpoty|work is off again, continue with working
<sistpoty|work> cya
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-20
<aurax> elkbuntu you idiot :)
<Hobbsee> aurax: can i suggest that multichannel harassment will just get you klined?
<Hobbsee> Seveas: just wait for nalioth, or another staffer to nuke him
<Hobbsee> if he's awake
<Seveas> Hobbsee, I don't wait for staff if I can fix it
<Seveas> often takes too long
<Hobbsee> true
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-13
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:59. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> This is a meeting of the Ubuntu Technical Board
<persia> Oh, I thought that was at 14:00 UTC.
<persia> The Asia/Oceania RMB meeting is now cancelled for this week.  Come back next week (9:00 UTC).
<mdz> it's been at 1500 UTC since at least October
<mdz> persia: the fridge calendar is hopeless; please consider the team calendar in Google authoritative
<mdz> kirkland: ping
<Keybuk> mdz: though that calendar is not available to the community
<mdz> Keybuk: I realize.  do you have a solution?
<mdz> the fridge doesn't even let me log in, I have no way to update it
<mdz> this meeting has been stable for years, but never seems to be at the right time on the fridge calendar, and I don't understand why
<Keybuk> I mailed fridge-devel about it
<Keybuk> the mail bounced :-/
<mdz> sabdfl is inbound
<Keybuk> I actually did have an idea
<dholbach> Wiki Calendar FTW:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar?action=recall&rev=99 ! :-)
<Keybuk> if we had a google calendar for the ubuntu community, people could add events to it by inviting the known e-mail address to the event
<Keybuk> people known to schedule events could be given permission to add directly
<mdz> [TOPIC] calendaring
<MootBot> New Topic:  calendaring
<persia> There is one.  The bot can't process it due to some bugs with the way that Google implements iCal vs. the python-ical modules.
<persia> boredandblogging, Do you have the URL of the Google calendar for the fridge handy?
<Keybuk> why do you need a bot?
<persia> Keybuk, Just adjusts the topic of this channel, shows upcoming meetings, etc.
<Keybuk> ah
<persia> I suppose it's not needed, but it's how most people find out the schedule for stuff now.
<Keybuk> on the calendar side, I'd just set it so it adds invited meetings by default
<Keybuk> and generally trust people to behave
<Keybuk> if people don't behave, someone can remove the meeting trivially and add the person to the "cannot see" list
<cody-somerville> Keybuk, we already have a calendar like that
<cody-somerville> oops, I see persia already mentioned that
<sabdfl> ahoy all
<Keybuk> cody-somerville: it doesn't seem to be very well advertised? :)
<mdz> sabdfl: first topic, by virtue of there being a meeting conflict, is communicating our meeting time appropriately
<mdz> the fridge is ostensibly authoritative, but it has proven very tricky to get it updated
<Keybuk> we use calendars for a number of things
<mdz> persia: is there anyone else who can tell us about it?
<mdz> persia: (the google one)
<Keybuk> most primarily for us, "booking" this channel
<persia> Right, so unless anyone has a better solution, let's decide we want to use the Google calendar, update the fridge to point to Google, dispense with the bot until it can be fixed, and put the URL to the google calendar in the /topic.
<persia> mdz, boredandblogging is the person who told me about it, but anyone on the News Team ought to have the information.
 * cody-somerville has access.
<persia> cody-somerville, What's the URL?
<persia> cody-somerville, Can you implement something sane with it?
<cody-somerville> http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=j5q85mmi6ujvjtii5s1n3li5io%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Halifax
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=j5q85mmi6ujvjtii5s1n3li5io%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Halifax
<sabdfl> persia: +1
<cody-somerville> persia, I think there is already a page on the fridge with the calendar embedded.
<cody-somerville> I shall find it
<Keybuk> we should ensure that the process for adding events to that calendar is well documented
<Keybuk> what is the process now?
<persia> Keybuk, mail the News team.
<mdz> who owns this infrastructure?
<mdz> the CC or one of its delegates?
<sabdfl> eish
<persia> newz2000 seems to do most of the infrastructure updates.
<persia> News Team provides most of the direction.
<persia> (fridge-devel was merged into News Team, as I understand things)
<sabdfl> we've never taken a view on that - either Canonical provides infrastructure, or various folks / teams do what they need ad hoc
<sabdfl> there are elements here of Canonical (newz2000) and ad hoc (the fridge->irc bot)
<cody-somerville> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1590 is the page on the fridge that embeds the google calendar
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1590 is the page on the fridge that embeds the google calendar
<sabdfl> i've no problem saying that the TB could own ubuntu project infrastructure
<sabdfl> if that would help
<persia> Or perhaps that TB could direct it?  That saves direct responsibility, but also provides an avenue for resolution of confusion.
<Keybuk> cody-somerville: ACCESS DENIED!
<mdz> I don't think the tech board needs or wants to own this, we just want to make sure that people know  when the tech board meeting is
<mdz> I would be happy to have responsibility for updating it as chair
<mdz> but I need to know what to do and have the access to do it
<cody-somerville> mdz, Isn't the meeting always at the same time?
<mdz> cody-somerville: yes, which is why I'm so puzzled that it's often wrong on the fridge
<Keybuk> to me, it seems appropriate that if it's a google calendar, people who chair teams have access to write to it
<mdz> it changes twice a year for DST
<cody-somerville> mdz, Because the fridge's calendar infrastructure is poor
<mdz> cody-somerville: how do other teams update the calendar?
<sabdfl> why does it change for DST?
<cody-somerville> mdz, They send an e-mail and pray to $DIETY
<persia> I just send email to the news team monthly, for the meetings I chair.
<sabdfl> surely it's easier to fix it in Zulu time?
<sabdfl> folks know their own DST changes better than we do
<Keybuk> sabdfl: because many other meetings change with DST, and the tech-board overlaps with them
<mdz> sabdfl: not when your calendar, my calendar and Keybuk's calendar are all in local time and change with DST
<cody-somerville> If we move to the Google Calendar, folks can just e-mail the actual calendar
<Keybuk> cody-somerville: what is the actual calendar's e-mail address?
<cody-somerville> ie. they would invite the calendar to their event they created in their google calendar
<cody-somerville> Keybuk, one sec
<Keybuk> (this should all be in a wiki page)
<Keybuk> a very clear and obvious wiki page
<kirkland> mdz: pong
<Keybuk> w.u.c/Calendar
<sabdfl> is it a calendar for this channel, effectively?
<sabdfl> or a tech board calendar, which happens to invite this channel to some events?
<persia> sabdfl, Other events (e.g. bug days) also go there, but it's 90% for this channel.
<mdz> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/about says to email ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com to update it
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/about says to email ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com to update it
<cody-somerville> mdz, Keybuk: Right. The google calendar is a plan of the news team. The bot currently needed some programming work to work correctly.
<Keybuk> mdz: it does?
<Keybuk> it says to e-mail the News Team to update the fridge itself
<mdz> Keybuk: yes, at the end of the last calendar
<Keybuk> it doesn't mention the calendar at all?
<mdz> it seems cleary that what we need to do is reach out to the news team to understand how to solve this
<mdz> not much more to talk about here
<mdz> I'll take the action
<cody-somerville> mdz, I'm a member of the news team
<mdz> cody-somerville: oh dear
<ogra> the news team was mailed several times about the TB schedule btw
<mdz> cody-somerville: and you can't tell us how to update the calendar either?
<cody-somerville> I can
<cody-somerville> I just explained it :)
<sabdfl> (03:10:49 PM) persia: Right, so unless anyone has a better solution, let's decide we want to use the Google calendar, update the fridge to point to Google, dispense with the bot until it can be fixed, and put the URL to the google calendar in the /topic.
<mdz> cody-somerville: send an email and pray?
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, persia++
<sabdfl> i think we can ask the News team to change practice
<Keybuk> cody-somerville: you said "one sec" and never told us ;)
<sabdfl> make that an official "Ubuntu meetings and events" calendar
<sabdfl> agree who gets to write to it, so it doesn't become too noisy
<sabdfl> and encourage folks to subscribe through it (RSS feeds, IRC bot, News page etc)
<mdz> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news-team/2008-August/000164.html shows ogra saying it's at 1400 UTC.  that may have been correct at the time (BST)
<ogra> back then it was
<mdz> we've spent too long talking about this; we have a lot to cover
<ogra> but afaik it never ended up on the calendar anyway
<mdz> I'll take an action to sort this out
<mdz> [ACTION] mdz to sort calendar issues with the news team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to sort calendar issues with the news team
<mdz> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<mdz> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<mdz> that's the proper agenda for this meeting
<mdz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-core-dev application from Dustin Kirkland (kirkland)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application from Dustin Kirkland (kirkland)
<kirkland> mdz: Hi, I'm here now
<mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-November/001849.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-November/001849.html
<mdz> is kirkland's application
<mdz> zul,cjwatson,jdstrand,kees,pitti and slangasek are named references
<mdz> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DustinKirkland
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DustinKirkland
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the basis of references, and my observation of kirkland in action at UDS
<Keybuk> kirkland: One of your efforts over the last cycle has been to add a "status" command to init scripts
<Keybuk> This has involved communication with a lot of different teams and people who care about particular packages
<Keybuk> how do you think that went?
<mdz> (sorry, I'm just reading the email trail now, I didn't have a chance to prep)
<Keybuk> Especially, were there any problems or arguments you encountered?  And how did you resolve them?
<amachu> hi
<persia> amachu, We're cancelled for this week.  Read your mail.
<kirkland> Keybuk: fair to partly cloudy, I'd say.  The best thing I did to help that effort, I think, was to add a status_of_proc() function to the lsb functions list
<kirkland> Keybuk: I was able to work that function upstream into Debian
<kirkland> Keybuk: it helped that we carried it in Ubuntu's lsb package for a little while
<amachu> persia: Ok. got stuck in traffic :-) did any candidate turned out?
<kirkland> Keybuk: and proved out a number of init/status scripts
<Keybuk> was it a problem of getting others to adopt your changes?
<kirkland> Keybuk: we covered the most important server package's init scripts
<Keybuk> (people silently not sponsoring or changing)
<Keybuk> or was it a problem of people vocally arguing to the change?
<kirkland> Keybuk: sponsoring was a little tough at first, because I was very new to the community and it was remarkably difficult to get people to trust you when you're new around here :-)
<kirkland> Keybuk: that got much easier
<kirkland> Keybuk: and is not so much a problem now
<kirkland> Keybuk: once I made MOTU, I was able to ease that burden by sponsoring other's changes to the universe package's init scripts
<Keybuk> other than the obvious, how differently do you think the changes would have gone had you been a member of core-dev?
<kirkland> Keybuk: there was some disagreement
<Keybuk> what kind of disagreement was there?  How did you resolve the disagreements?
<kirkland> Keybuk: well, some init scripts didn't need status actions, as I believe you brought up with respect to udev
<kirkland> Keybuk: so it was hard to make a cut-and-dry rule
<kirkland> Keybuk: also, it seems that because this involved "lsb", there was almost immediately controversy
<kirkland> Keybuk: lsb seems to raise blood pressures around here, even though this item had nothing to do with certification of apps or the distro
<kirkland> Keybuk: that was a simple lack of understanding
<Keybuk> were you able to resolve those ?
<kirkland> Keybuk: I think one of the first things I would do differently, were I to start this effort again, would be to right a lintian check
<mdz> kirkland: Debian seems to be supporting LSB style init script ordering now.  In your opinion, what should our response be to that in Ubuntu, if any?
<kirkland> Keybuk: the lintian check would put the issue in front of the package uploaders on each build, and getting that into Debian would enlist the help of a much larger community
<sabdfl1> what did i miss?
<kirkland> mdz: well, as I understand it, upstart is our future for init
<kirkland> mdz: that might put us even more out of step with Debian, down the road
<mdz> sabdfl: I will paste
<sabdfl> thanks
<sabdfl> kirkland: is there any sense of direction from debian on this?
<Keybuk> kirkland: while true, Upstart will have to support old-style init scripts anyway
<kirkland> sabdfl: this = upstart?
<Keybuk> and supporting them makes migration a lot less relaxed, since we don't need a flag day
<sabdfl> kirkland: clear direction from debian with regard to init strategy
<sabdfl> last i saw it was a "general framework to allow any package to use any system"
<kirkland> sabdfl: sorry, I haven't followed Debian's init strategy closely
<sabdfl> Keybuk: less relaxed?
<Keybuk> sabdfl: err, more relexed ;)
<Keybuk> kirkland: it's also worth noting that LSB headers being wrong in Ubuntu breaks users systems when they use tools that (usually as a side-effect) reorder the init direcories
<kirkland> Keybuk: ah, yes, I have been bitten by that, while working with superm on some mythtv issues
<mdz> we have 20 minutes remaining and several more agenda items, 2 minute warning
<mdz> (for this topic)
<kirkland> Honestly, my interest in init scripts was simply in having a way to check the status of each service running on an ubuntu server
<Keybuk> I'm done ;)
<sabdfl> +1 from me, still ;-)
<Keybuk> +1 from me on clear recommendation and strong technical skills
<mdz> [VOTE] ubuntu-core-dev application from Dustin Kirkland
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ubuntu-core-dev application from Dustin Kirkland.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mdz> sabdfl,Keybuk: care to vote now that one has actually been called?
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> #endvote
<mdz> bah
<mdz> kirkland: congratulations, thanks, and welcome
<kirkland> thanks guys, cheers ;-)
<sabdfl> i think the full expression is "bah, humbug"
<Keybuk> bah? :)
<mdz> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<mdz> [TOPIC] Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
<MootBot> New Topic:  Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
<sabdfl> stephane graber
<Keybuk> The mootbot attacks.  The mootbot hits for -1 command-fu.
<sabdfl> is there a url with background on this? the packages exactly?
<mdz> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:42:45 +0200
<mdz> From: Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com>
<mdz> To: technical-board@lists.ubuntu.com
<mdz> Cc: Stephane Graber <stgraber@ubuntu.com>
<mdz> Subject: extended upload rights for stephane graber
<sabdfl> i also saw a mail thread asking for mdke to have limited upload rights of docs packages
<mdz> ltsp, ldm and ltspfs
 * ogra looks up
<mdz> stephane is a MOTU
<ogra> there will be more packages though as we started splitting out i.e. ldm-themes
<ogra> right on your request he gained motu status to get access to these packages in main
<sabdfl> are these currently being produced by stephane and sponsored by ogra?
<ogra> sadly he seems not to be around
<mdz> (since December)
<ogra> sabdfl, right
<sabdfl> any problems so far?
<ogra> or by other main uploaders who dont have concerns about his packagig either ... i.e. LaserJock
<sabdfl> are any of these iso-production-critical for the desktop edition livecd?
<ogra> nope
<mdz> ogra: is someone planning to create a seed for these so that we can regulate access based on that?
<ogra> mdz, a seed ?
<mdz> ogra: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveReorganisation
<ogra> mdz, the source is maintained in a cross distro way on https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk
<ogra> the tarballs used for the packages are tagged dumps from that tree directly
<mdz> at this point, one-off ACLs like this should only be a temporary solution
<cjwatson> seeds have nothing to do with upstream maintenance ...
<ogra> oh, you mean an ACL team for the packaging :)
<ogra> sure, thats doable
<mdz> and there should be a plan to move to a seed
<sabdfl> +1 from me, on the basis of lots of collaboration, limited impact of a mistake and long effective maintenance of the packages
<mdz> (or whatever they're being called...last I checked it was seeds)
<mdz> cjwatson: is that still accurate?  I see discussion of other names on the wiki page
<cjwatson> mdz: I am attempting to review the UDS discussion at the moment
<mdz> ogra: no, I don't
<cjwatson> (slightly stymied by audio problems on my laptop)
<mdz> ogra: I mean the list of packages which that team can upload
<cjwatson> until I've done that I'd rather not give an inaccurate answer, but I am going to have it done by the call on Thursday
<ogra> mdz, ah, k (i need to read up on that topic more, i'm not up to date on this yet and jum meetings atm)
<ogra> *jump
<mdz> I'm happy to ack this request but only if someone is on the hook to transition it to post-ArchiveReorg world order
<mdz> ogra: is that you?
<ogra> well, i'll do that
<cjwatson> I will keep it on my list of things that need attention once we have a clearly defined new world order
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> call for a vote?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jan 17:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 14 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 14 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council
<mdz> [VOTE] Upload ACL for stgraber including ltsp, ldm and ltspfs
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Upload ACL for stgraber including ltsp, ldm and ltspfs.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mdz> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<sabdfl> zuupa
<mdz> [ACTION] mdz to get ACL updated for stgraber
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to get ACL updated for stgraber
<mdz> [TOPIC] cdrtools
<MootBot> New Topic:  cdrtools
<mdz> this will be quick
<mdz> I haven't heard anything on this since early December
<mdz> it's in Joerg's hands as I understand it
<mdz> we've identified the legal language which needs to be added, and asked Joerg to make the change as recommended by SFLC
<mdz> I'll send out a ping to see where it stands
<mdz> [ACTION] mdz to ping regarding cdrtools
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to ping regarding cdrtools
<Keybuk> without having read what you've asked to add,
<mdz> [TOPIC] ArchiveReorganisation and governance impact thereof
<MootBot> New Topic:  ArchiveReorganisation and governance impact thereof
<Keybuk> I'm still concerned that any grant for cdrtools will permit any GPL application to link to any non-GPL library
<mdz> we have a conference call at 1400 UTC on Thursday with the MOTU Council to discuss t his
<mdz> Keybuk: I can forward you the thread offline if you like; it's not a very good read
<mdz> given that we're constrained on time, I guess we'll defer further discussion on this to the call
<mdz> sabdfl,Keybuk: please make sure you're adequately prepared for that discussion in advance though
<mdz> [TOPIC] Patent policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Patent policy
<mdz> We have an outstanding inquiry regarding how to respond to patent concerns in a package
<mdz> this highlighted for me the need for a general policy on this to help developers decide what to do
<mdz> but as far as I'm aware there is no one working on it at the moment
<mdz> I do not have time to do it
<sabdfl> mdz: are you reording the agenda specifically?
<sabdfl> this could be a long conversation
<sabdfl> i'd rather get to some of the other bits this week
<mdz> sabdfl: no, just getting to some quick topics first
<mdz> this is just a call for help, nothing to discuss in this meeting
<sabdfl> this is not one of them
<sabdfl> :-)
<mdz> but it is blocking a request someone made of the tech board months ago
<mdz> and the unresponsiveness/ineffectiveness of the tech board at the moment was a concern discussed at UDS
<mdz> so I felt it only fair to highlight it
<sabdfl> in general, i don't think we fold in the face of suggestions of patent infringement
<sabdfl> just because there may be a patent in some jurisdiction is no reason for us not to ship code
<sabdfl> we need to look at the details, case by case
<sabdfl> there will be cases where we DON'T ship code, because we think that would generally put users in a bad situation
<mdz> sabdfl: so you disagree that we should have a documented policy?
<sabdfl> and others where we do, because there is insufficient clarity
<sabdfl> no, but i don't think it can be simplistic
<mdz> someone needs to own the problem of getting consensus on this and documenting it
<mdz> or at a minimum, to respond to the inquiry that's been raised
<mdz> neither of these can be me, I'm afraid
<mdz> we are out of time and I know you want to get to the nominations, so let's move on
<mdz> [TOPIC] Technical Board nominations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Technical Board nominations
<cjwatson> I did respond to the enquiry that reached me, but I felt unable to give an authoritative answer on the legal liability Canonical's prepared to accept as a distributor
<mdz> sabdfl: all yours
<cjwatson> (and instead made what helpful comments I could)
<sabdfl> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/+polls
<mdz> cjwatson: I appreciate that, thanks
<sabdfl> cjwatson and keescook have agreed to stand in a run-off election for a single new place on the TB
<mdz> wow, only 7 days to vote
<sabdfl> voting is now open, and runs for a week
<sabdfl> i haven't discussed any "platform position" or "meet the candidates" ideas
<sabdfl> as we're in somewhat new territory :-)
<sabdfl> both have said that the other guy would be brilliant too ;-)
<sabdfl> where should we announce the ballot?
<sabdfl> it's of course open to MOTU and core-dev
<mdz> ubuntu-devel-announce and right quick
<sabdfl> okdokey
<sabdfl> should we move on?
<mdz> this is the last topic on the agenda
<mdz> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<cjwatson> I do have one piece of AOB if we can make it fit
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/OemTrackingId involves namespace assignment for a file filled in by redistributors of Ubuntu
<cjwatson> in my review of the spec, I objected to having a free-for-all namespace with no arbitration body or record
<mdz> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/OemTrackingId
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/OemTrackingId
<cjwatson> and suggested that there should be a fairly simple registry with the TB arbitrating disputes if necessary
<cjwatson> feel free to tell me to defer to later if you don't think this is something that can be dealt with immediately
<mdz> I'm happy for the TB to be the custodian of that list in the absence of an obvious fit with an existing team or a need for a new one
<mdz> sabdfl,Keybuk: any objections?
<Keybuk> reading the specification, it looks like most of this is already implemented anyway?
<Keybuk> mdz: no, I agree we should own that namespaced
<cjwatson> Keybuk: ish, some renaming needs to happen
<sabdfl> there are some issues in that spec - the shipt / dowload delta
<cjwatson> there is an existing implementation providing some similar things, but it doesn't meet all the requirements
<mdz> yes, but cjwatson isn't asking about those (and from his comments I think he has the situation in hand)
<cjwatson> yeah, we had a follow-up call after my comments; telegraphic notes at the bottom which I will fold into the spec
<sabdfl> +1 on the registry
<mdz> cjwatson: does that address your issue?
<cjwatson> I do need to talk to somebody about the shipit issue but I think that somebody is probably Jane/Henrik rather than the TB
<cjwatson> mdz: yes, that's fine, thank you; I will nominate a page and mail a note to the TB
<mdz> ok, let's wrap then, thanks all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:05.
<Keybuk> thanks
<sabdfl> thanks all
<mathiaz> all right folks - let's get the Ubuntu Server Team meeting going.
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:07. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nijaba> o/
<sommer> o//
<persia> \o
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ScottK-desktop> o/
<jdstrand> o/
<MianoSM> o/
<mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090106
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Screen Profiles
<MootBot> New Topic:  Screen Profiles
<mathiaz> kirkland: ^^?
<zul> hello
<kirkland> mathiaz: yessir!
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's totally awesome now
<adityag> here in for member, i am sorry because i am late, i just came to know about it
<kirkland> mathiaz: uploaded to universe for jaunty
<kirkland> mathiaz: in my ppa for hardy/intrepid
<kirkland> mathiaz: nijaba has done some excellent work on the configurator
 * nijaba blushes
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's very fast to start up now (i'm caching the updates-available information)
<mathiaz> kirkland: so what's up with the taskbar ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i plan to blog about it today
<kirkland> mathiaz: clarify the question?
<adityag> any one there  ?? in here for the first time
<mathiaz> kirkland: awesome.
<mathiaz> kirkland: last time we talked about implemented a taskbar in screen
<mathiaz> kirkland: is this something still being worked on? implemented?
<kirkland> mathiaz: it currently looks like this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/Screenshot.png
<kirkland> mathiaz: the 3-color "\o/" is our approximation of the spirit of the Ubuntu logo (also, it's 1/3 of the circle of friends)
<kirkland> mathiaz: Ubuntu 8.10 is pulled from the lsb-release information
<kirkland> mathiaz: there are 66 updates available for my system right now
<nijaba> mathiaz: you really should try it out, sounds like you have not yet
<kirkland> mathiaz: my system load is 0.40
<mathiaz> kirkland: right. There is an action about a taskbar from last week minutes.
<kirkland> mathiaz: I have 2 CPUs, currently operating at 800MHz
<kirkland> mathiaz: and 4G of RAM available
<mathiaz> kirkland: having a way to load applets into the taskbar
<ScottK-desktop> kirkland: Congratulations on core-dev BTW.
<kirkland> mathiaz: and the time/date
<kirkland> ScottK-desktop: thanks for your support!  \o/
<kirkland> mathiaz: that's a very difficult item;  i don't plan on implementing that any time soon
<kirkland> mathiaz: screen-profiles is quite usuable now, and provides a lot of good information
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'd like to focus now on finding/fixing bugs
<kirkland> mathiaz: and improving the usuability
<mathiaz> kirkland: great.
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm going to contact the Desktop User Experience team
<kirkland> mathiaz: and ask them if they can give this a look over
<mathiaz> anything else to add regarding screen-profiles?
<mathiaz> it seems that was is required now is more testing
<kirkland> mathiaz: right
<kirkland> mathiaz: and then ....
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to write a blog post about screen-profile
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to write a blog post about screen-profile
<kirkland> mathiaz: i think we should revisit this in 2-3 weeks, and consider if the ubuntu screenrc should be the system default /etc/screenrc
<kirkland> mathiaz: so that any user who runs screen gets this magic
<kirkland> mathiaz: in Ubuntu
<mathiaz> kirkland: seems like an idea to discuss.
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<kirkland> mathiaz: yes, and we need strong confidence of no breakage to do so, IMHO
<jdstrand> kirkland: what about doing used/total for memory, rather than just total?
<kirkland> jdstrand: i like that idea
<kirkland> jdstrand: what about a percentage?
<kirkland> jdstrand: i'd be interested in seeing how we can accomplish this in as few characters as possible
<kirkland> jdstrand: I'm trying to stay within 80 columns
<jdstrand> kirkland: I like that you give the total, and would be fine with a percentage as long as total was still there
<kirkland> jdstrand: you see that we have a little more space
<kirkland> jdstrand: k
<jdstrand> kirkland: but, really, percentage is most important I think
<mathiaz> kirkland: jdstrand: let's discuss the improvement somewhere else
<jdstrand> (if you had to choose)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU for ebox
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU for ebox
<jdstrand> np
<mathiaz> sommer: ^^?
<mathiaz> zul: ^^?
<zul> uploaded this morning waiting for motu-sru
<mathiaz> all the bugs have been filed/updated?
<sommer> bugs filed for the needed patches
<sommer> mathiaz: yeppers :)
<mathiaz> and the motu-sru team is subscribed to all of them?
<sommer> mathiaz: should be
 * ScottK-desktop is pinging them right now.
<ScottK-desktop> What bug?
<mathiaz> sommer: excellent work!
<sommer> ScottK-desktop: bug #273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273486
<sommer> bug #314606'
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 314606 in ebox "ebox and libebox don't support Intrepid gconf version" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/314606
<sommer> and bug #255368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255368
<mathiaz> great - thanks for the work sommer and zul
<zul> np
<sommer> np
<ScottK-desktop> motu-sru is looking at them now.
<mathiaz> That's all the ACTION left from last week meetings
<mathiaz> anything else to add wrt to last week meeting?
<sommer> ScottK-desktop: cool, thanks
<mathiaz> allright. Let's move on then.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] libmysqlclient-dev package (MySQL 5.1) in jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  libmysqlclient-dev package (MySQL 5.1) in jaunty
<mathiaz> The current version of libmysqlclient15-dev in jaunty is provided by mysql 5.1.
<mathiaz> Which is a transitional package.
<mathiaz> As a result pkgs in main that build-depends on libmysqlclient15-dev don't build
<mathiaz> ex: ooo
<mathiaz> so the plan is
<mathiaz> 1. upload a new version of mysql-dfsg-5.1 that doesn't build libmysqlclient15-dev transitional package
<mathiaz> instead it would build libmysqlclient16-dev
<mathiaz> mysql-server, mysql-client would also not be provided by mysql-5.1
<mathiaz> and mysql-common would be renamed to mysql-common-5.1
<zul> oh crap sorry about that
<mathiaz> 2. upload a new version of mysql-dfsg-5.0 with a version of 5.1.30really5.0.75
<persia> Why does it need libmysqlclient16-dev, if it's not going to have the transitional package: can't it just use libmysqlclient-dev ?
<mathiaz> so that libmysqlclient15-dev, mysql-server, mysql-client and mysql-common are provided by mysql-5.0 again.
<ScottK-desktop> persia: I think you want to provide a way to specifically build-dep on the 5.1 -dev
<mathiaz> persia: the current 5.1 package from debian works like this:
<mathiaz> persia: it provides a transitional pacakge libmysqlclient15-dev which depends on libmysqlclient-dev
<mathiaz> persia: debian 5.1 doesn't have libmysqlclient16-dev
<persia> ScottK-desktop, mysql-dfsg-5.0 doesn't provide "libmysqlclient-dev" as a package name, which is why I thought it might be useful to use the current Debian name.
<mathiaz> however mysql-5.0 provides libmysqlclient15-dev (which provides a virtual package libmysqlclient-dev)
<persia> mathiaz, Right.  I just don't understand the value of the new package, unless there's some other use to which libmysqlclient-dev is expected to be put.
<persia> Ah, virtual packages.
<persia> Right.  Nevermind.
<jdstrand> mathiaz: is Debian planning to be able to have 5.1 and 5.0 in the archive at the same time?
<mathiaz> right now in Debian there is only 1 version in mysql.
<mathiaz> jdstrand: good question.
<zul> i doubt it
<ScottK-desktop> persia: Oh.  I thought it did.
<mathiaz> jdstrand: considering that 5.1 in experimental provides a binary pkg libmysqlclient-dev, I don't think so.
<jdstrand> if they do, this really sounds like something we'd want to collaborate on with them
<persia> ScottK-desktop, as pointed out, it virtually does :)  We're both right.
<ScottK-desktop> ;-)
<jdstrand> mathiaz: if not, we'll need to make *sure* that everything upgrades ok when 5.1 in debian replaces 5.0
<ScottK-desktop> jdstrand: Yes, but we've got two issues: Fix it now so OOo will build and Do it right/talk to Debian.
<mathiaz> even if Debian doesn't plan to provide both packages, we - at least for jaunty - will provide both 5.1 and 5.0
<mathiaz> one in main (currently 5.0) and one in universe (5.1)
<mathiaz> universe (currently 5.1)
<ScottK-desktop> Although Kubuntu has hopes of getting Amarok back in Main, so there may be bits of 5.1 that need to get promoted.
<ScottK-desktop> They are still trying to figure out how small those bits can be.
<mathiaz> so it seems that we'd have to provide libmysqlclient16-dev as a binary package from mysql-5.1
<mathiaz> so my question is: what happens if both libmysqlclient15-dev and libmysqlclient16-dev provide a virtual package libmysqlclient-dev?
<mathiaz> is this something that should be done^^?
<ScottK-desktop> And as we've discussed before, we either need to get Akonadi moved to 5.1 or make sure all the needed bits are co-installable.
<persia> It's acceptable, as long as they conflict.
<mathiaz> or only one should provide libmysqlclient-dev
<jdstrand> mathiaz: with your plan, what happens when Debian replaces 5.0 with 5.1 and we try to sync in a future version of Ubuntu? and when users go intrepid -> jaunty -> ...
<mathiaz> persia: right. What should be the build-dep then?
<mathiaz> should package build-dep on libmysqlclient-dev?
 * jdstrand is worried about an even bigger delta
<mathiaz> or on libmysqlclient{15,16}-dev?
<persia> mathiaz, Whichever version is desired.  I'd recommend having libmysqlclient16-dev not provide libmysqlclient-dev for now.
<persia> By not providing, packages won't get built against 5.1 by accident.
<mathiaz> jdstrand: I don't know.
<ScottK-desktop> Step 3 of the plan that mathiaz and I discussed last night was "Beg Debian to do an Epoch and get things back in sync versionwise."
<mathiaz> persia: right. mysql-dfsg-5.1 should only provide packages that are new.
<mathiaz> persia: and conflicts with necessary existing packages.
<mathiaz> persia: but not replacing existing packages.
<persia> mathiaz, Right.
<mathiaz> allright - so to summarize:
<persia> ScottK-desktop, may not need an epoch, depending on the Debian transition plan, and status at both jaunty release and jaunty+1 release.
<mathiaz> 1. mysql-5.1: provides libmysqlclient16-dev
<ScottK-desktop> Maybe
<mathiaz> 2. mysql-5.0: version 5.1.30really5.0.75
<mathiaz> I'll upload these after the meeting.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to upload mysql packages to fix libmysqlclient-dev package in jaunty.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to upload mysql packages to fix libmysqlclient-dev package in jaunty.
<mathiaz> anything else to add on this specific subject?
<zul> yep sorry about this
<ScottK> mathiaz: Double check there aren't any other conflicting package names.
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] WebArchitecture
<MootBot> New Topic:  WebArchitecture
<mathiaz> yann hammon around?
<nijaba> mathiaz: no yann2 around...
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok.
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server on NAS devices
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server on NAS devices
<mathiaz> persia: ^^?
<persia> Yep.  I have some nice little ARM servers: hobbyist versions of the Buffalo consumer NAS devices.  I'd like to run Ubuntu on them.  Further, I'd like this to be reasonable for normal users.
<persia> What level of support should I expect, and what can I do to make that be "full"?
<zul> ergh..
<zul> i dont think the server team is equipped to support NAS devices
<persia> OK.  What's missing?
<zul> manpower for one
<persia> To do what?
<mathiaz> persia: first step: are all the packages required for running a NAS device built on ARM?
<mathiaz> persia: then - which services you'd provide? nfs/cifs?
<persia> mathiaz, I think so.  I would be expecting to run a fairly standard Ubuntu Server base configuration.  FTBFS is something I'm happy to chase towards that goal.
<mathiaz> persia: ssh/sftp/avahi?
<mathiaz> persia: I think almost all the main component are there.
<persia> Well, that's why I wanted to discuss it.  I'll personally mostly use ssh, but I suspect it's interesting in a wider sense for other services (for other people).
 * ScottK could see a NAS task if we had a scalable way to list out tasks....
<mathiaz> persia: the only touchy thing is the administrative interface
<persia> How so?
<mathiaz> persia: do we have a standard way to create an admin interface for non-geeky users?
<ScottK> Sounds like a good Jaunty+1 spec topic to me.
<persia> Wasn't there a framework involving lenses that was intended to do that?  Or does ebox do that?
<mathiaz> ScottK: agreed.
<nijaba> mathiaz: isn't that what ebox solves?
<mathiaz> yes.
<mathiaz> ebox could do the job. we'd have to test it.
<persia> I can certainly add an agenda item to the next UDS, but I'd think that there's probably a light-weight solution that might be interesting in the meantime, without extra packages, etc.  I don't really mind a geeky interface.
<mathiaz> it may need to be trimmed down to only provide the necessary components for a NAS device
<persia> Are there services in a default server that shouldn't be run?
<mathiaz> persia: the default install doesn't run any service listening on the network
<persia> Just because they sell it as a NAS device doesn't mean it's not a general-purpose computer.
<mathiaz> persia: not even ssh
<persia> The default Server install doesn't?  Oh.  I thought it did.
<nijaba> persia: no, it is proposed as a task
<ScottK> persia: I'd say "Make it work as a command line managed NAS" is a good Jaunty goal and "Make it non-geek friendly" is a good Jaunty+1 goal
<persia> ScottK, That seems completely reasonable to me.  What can I do to address the Jaunty goal?
<mathiaz> persia: so IMO we should first make sure that the file services are working correctly on ARM
<mathiaz> persia: that means making sure samba and nfs are working correclty
<ScottK> mathiaz: I think this is a reasonable task for tasksel.
<mathiaz> persia: as well as dhcp.
<persia> mathiaz, Is that just a matter of pushing an ARM install through the already published testcases?
<ScottK> That or a metapackage of some kind.
<mathiaz> persia: right - there is a testcase for samba
<mathiaz> tasksel already has a samba server tasks.
<mathiaz> persia: how important is that the NAS device provides NFS?
<persia> mathiaz, I don't care about NFS personally, although maybe someone does.
<mathiaz> persia: IMO it's just a matter of testing.
<persia> I've hardware, so I'll volunteer to run an ARM install of Server through the test cases: shall I just file bugs on anything that doesn't work?
<mathiaz> persia: making sure that samba, ssh and dhcp are working with the ARM platform
<mathiaz> persia: seems like a good plan to me.
<ScottK> Would we want anything different in an arm-server kernel that it's worth the trouble to make/maintain it?
<mathiaz> and as ScottK mentionned, tackling the admin interface could be done during the next cycle.
<persia> While I'm willing to chase some of the bugs, should I expect assistance from others to get them closed?
<mathiaz> even though ebox may fit the bill.
<persia> ScottK, There's already about 6 flavours of ARM kernel: I think NAS-specific is probably a jaunty+1 thought.
<ScottK> persia: As I'm pretty sure you know, NCommander has been doing a lot of portability work on armel.
<ScottK> persia: OK.
<ScottK> He could probably be encouraged to help.
<persia> Yes, I've been seeing that, which is one of the reasons I brought this up.
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on.
<mathiaz> I won't run the Open discussion topic.
<mathiaz> If someone wanted to add something, please edit the Meeting wiki page
<mathiaz> so that we can discuss it next week.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<nijaba> +1
<sommer> +2
<ScottK> mathiaz: One quick think libdb4.3 died this week.
 * ScottK waves at vorian who is working on the lidbd consolidation stuff.
<mathiaz> ScottK: great. thanks for reporting that.
<mathiaz> so see you all next week, same time, same place
<mathiaz> and happy iso testing for Alpha3 - due this week!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:59.
<nijaba> Thanks for running the meeting mathiaz
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 14 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 14 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council
<pgraner> Time for the kernel team meeting
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * smb_tp joins
 * cking is here
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Hardy, Intrepid
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Hardy, Intrepid
<pgraner> smb_tp: How do we sit? Any news?
<smb_tp> Hardy: -proposed kernel went to -updates on the 8th
<smb_tp> this will be the one getting into the .2 release
<rtg> smb_tp: of course, there are updates immediately following because we missed some stable updates
<smb_tp> Intrepid: there has been one regression I am currently fighting about the backlight stuff. I think the solution is near but this will move the date for the update here
<smb_tp> Right, there were also some updates we tried to get into as well wich will be in the one -proposed that follows quite soon
<pgraner> smb_tp: how did they get missed?
<smb_tp> Thee were 6 patches in the pull from 2.6.24.3 to 2.6.24.4 which I missed out. All at the beginning.
<apw> were they all sparc specific?
<rtg> pgraner: it was about the time we changed our stable update policy.
<pgraner> smb_tp: any procedural changes we can make to make it simpler in the future
<smb_tp> No not all. Three were some net proto and one ip4 sand two sparc
<rtg> missing them was a one time occurrence.
<smb_tp> pgraner, No I think it was justbecause it was done late.
<pgraner> rtg: what would you propose?
<smb_tp> Some patches got in before some not
<pgraner> smb_tp: ok
<rtg> pgraner: what do you mean? propse what? I don't think there will be  a problem in the future.
<smb_tp> Some went in with different names. So if we now include them all as soon as a -stable update gets out it will be simpler
<apw> now that we are taking 'all' of them we should find it easier to valdiate it by simple counting in the future
<pgraner> rtg: you said it was "about the time we changed our stable update policy", I was asking for elaboration
<rtg> uh, it was about _the_ time (sorry)
<rtg> oh, never mind.
<pgraner> rtg: Ah, ok that makes more sense then, never mind
<pgraner> smb_tp: cool, just don't want to make it a habit.
<smb_tp> Ok, T61 works now with latest intrepid test kernel
<smb_tp> Not intentionally for sure
<apw> that t61 thing is our last (known) brightness regression yes?
<smb_tp> Yes, AFAIK
<rtg> no, Kano complained about Vostro regressions this AM
<rtg> but that was Jaunty, never mind.
<smb_tp> That thing is strange in ways that it should work with api but doesn't
<smb_tp> with the -11 default kernel?
<smb_tp> He surelydoes not use my ppa kernel
<rtg> smb_tp: never mind, he was complaining about Jaunty
<smb_tp> Oh yeah
<smb_tp> But might be the same fix
<apw> yeah as the original regression was stuff backported from mainline which had hit jaunty
<rtg> smb_tp: thats likely, but we have time to work on it.
<smb_tp> The last patch to smart identify which laptops can do acpi seems dangerous
<smb_tp> right
<smb_tp> So back to intrepid. Now I can get that kernel uploaded to -proposed
<rtg> cool
<smb_tp> But it will probably not be taken into -updates tomorrow
<rtg> Greg has 2.6.27 stable updates on deck.
<apw> i saw a bunch of stuff getting queued
<rtg> looks like some amd64 iommu stuff that is important
<smb_tp> These would follow after I get this one up
<smb_tp> There is also the next un of CVEs going
<pgraner> rtg: look like any ABI breakers in that set?
<smb_tp> s/un/run/
<rtg> hell if I jknow, I only look at titles so far
<pgraner> rtg: ack
<pgraner> smb_tp: anything else?
<smb_tp> No I thin I am done
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
<pgraner> How does the kernel look for Alpha 3?
<rtg> all but armel looks good.
<rtg> armel is giving me a real PITA
<apw> the suspend-resume bits made the kernel
<pgraner> rtg: lets hold armel until the arm topic
<rtg> ok
<rtg> apw completed Jaunty lpia this AM
<pgraner> apw: cool, I'd like to talk about the testing methodology and reporting for suspend/resume for a min
<pgraner> ogasawara: how do you see the bug report handling happening?
<rtg> I think the big Jaunty/kernel change is gonna be ext4 support in the installer and grub
<cking> which is a good thing
<pgraner> rtg: understood, lets get to that in a sec
<ogasawara> pgraner: for suspend/resume testing I can send out automated calls for testing
<apw> right now we are still waitiing for the apport and pm-utils changes to be accepted and uploaded
<apw> pitti being away is making life difficult on that score
<pgraner> apw: has anyone poked on the right folks to get them in?
<ogasawara> apw: it'll make it in time for Alpha3?
<BenC> apw: do you need someone else to review?
<apw> reviewers can only help if you have the time, the changes are on the bug
<BenC> apw: at least pm-utils, we should be able to do
<BenC> apport I would leave for pitti
<rtg> or kees
<BenC> apw: point me at the bugs, and I'll check into them after lunch
<apw> i did talk to slangasek so he was aware of our aim and our desire to hit alpha-3
<apw> BenC, will do ...
<ogasawara> apw:  what's the bug # that you're using for tracking?
<apw> bug #316419
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 316419 in pm-utils "Changes to support suspend/hibernate/resume testing" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/316419
<apw> all three changes are linked on there, the kernel stuff is already in
<pgraner> ogasawara: once the bugs come in, are you going to do the usual triage process, do we need to help you in anyway?
<ogasawara> pgraner: I can do the usual triage.  should be simple since I can use the tags.
<BenC> apw: got it, thanks
<ogasawara> pgraner: I'll yell for help if I need it
<pgraner> ogasawara: ok, lets assign them to apw since he is running on lead, he can then work with the rest of the team and further assign as needed, work for you apw?
<apw> we can see how that works and modify later if not
<apw> when we have more idea of the volume.  as they have tags we don't necessarily need to assign them till we start wortk on them i guess
<pgraner> apw: great, what I don't want to happen is they don't get looked at and fall thru the cracks. This way you can start to do a grouping of like issues etc...
<apw> yep.  its a focus so we need to be on top of them
<pgraner> ogasawara: when do plan on putting the CFT out? And initially it should be to the canonical engineers for the Alpha releases, then to the Community for Beta and beyond.
<ogasawara> pgraner: ah, so if we want just canonical engineers for Alpha's I'd suggest maybe sending email to distro team mailing list for call for testing
<apw> yeah we just need to make sure the apport side is out before we ask
<ogasawara> pgraner: assuming Alpha3 releases on the 15th as expected, I can put the call for testing out the day after
<apw> ogasawara, i'll let you know when i know all the bits are in place
<ogasawara> apw:  cool thanks.  I'll wait to hear from you first.
<pgraner> ogasawara: yep. We'd like to concentrate on a group of known hardware and work on getting that working right, then open to the community
<pgraner> apw: did you and sconklin get all the docs and troubleshooting wikis updated?
<apw> i need to get that done too
<pgraner> apw: cool, make sure ogasawara has all the links for the CFT email when done :-)
<pgraner> apw: feel free to ask for help from other folks as you see fit
<apw> will do ...
<pgraner> BenC: how did you make out with the ACPI suspend removal?
<BenC> pgraner: things are completed, but I need to send out the testing request
<pgraner> BenC: Cool, you might want to update apw's wiki's with the info so its documented there and people don't try to use it as a testing mechanism
<BenC> It's mostly a no-op in a lot of cases, so I'm not too concerned if I do an upload later today for A3, but I want to make sure no one gets serious regressions
<BenC> pgraner: ok
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 14 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 14 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<pgraner> BenC: cool, thanks
<rtg> BenC: do we still use pm-suspend?
<pgraner> [ACTION] BenC to update wiki pages on removal of ACPI suspend method
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BenC to update wiki pages on removal of ACPI suspend method
<pgraner> [ACTION] apw to update wiki docs on suspend/resume and send links to ogasawara
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw to update wiki docs on suspend/resume and send links to ogasawara
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Vanilla Kernel Builds
<MootBot> New Topic:  Vanilla Kernel Builds
 * NCommander wakes up
<BenC> rtg: I'd have to check that...I'm still not 100% on how all of this stuff interacts
<pgraner> We did have the action from UDS to get the vanilla kernel builds working,
<apw> i have the bones of the work for that, i put the actions in your wiki page yesterday
<rtg> hasn't happened yet
<pgraner> rtg: understood
<apw> i need to investigate how that fits in with multiple PPA's
<pgraner> when do we think we can get it wired up and running
<cking> is this automatic building of vanilla kernels?
<rtg> apw: oh, I didn't know you'd had time.
<apw> yeah the idea is automatic builds of general tips matching the kernels
<pgraner> apw: can you hand some of the research off to others?
<BenC> cking: semi...I think it's only done for each rcX
<apw> and ones matching the tip of linus
<cking> aha
<apw> pgraner, i think i need to set down my thoughts and progress somewhere and send it out, as the naming needs some thought so we don't collide with updates of our kernels etc
<BenC> apw: the versioning mess is the reason we've been procrastinating about this till now :)
<BenC> going to be hard to make it sensible
<pgraner> apw: ok, you and I can take that off line and see when would be best to work on it and bring back the results to this forum
<apw> pgraner, agreed
<pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM tree aka.... the mess
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM tree aka.... the mess
<pgraner> apw:  can you give everyone the latest...
 * apw looks confused
<rtg> apw has been working on lpia
<BenC> yeah, I think rtg own's "the mess" :)
 * pgraner is confused sorry.... too many things going on
<rtg> mostly all I've been trying to do is get it to armel build.
<NCommander> I can say something on the ARM trees
<rtg> NCommander: go ahead
<pgraner> NCommander: sure
<NCommander> As it stands
<NCommander> We still don't have a kernel in the archive with udebs
<NCommander> so d-i is blocking on the kernel
<BenC> didn't last kernel upload include armel d-i, or am I confused?
<cjwatson> last one tried but didn't have udebs
<rtg> my build issues are related to getting udebs done
<cjwatson> I am happy to help with udeb build problems
<NCommander> rtg, i can look into this, I'm currently idle waiting on something else
<BenC> rtg: are you having trouble with the way d-i stuff in the build is handled?
<rtg> its minor stuff, but time consuming
<cjwatson> easiest is if you send over a .deb, then the udebs can be tested on any architecture
<rtg> BenC: yep, empty modules when kernel-wedge runs. stuff like that.
<cjwatson> I would like to be involved in non-trivial udeb changes in general anyway, since they often affect me further down the line
<apw> is it kernel-wedge which makes the d-i stuff?
<cjwatson> yes
<apw> i have been noting errors from kernel-wedge during normal builds
<apw> splits on null values, may be relevant
<NCommander> Its probably something in d-i that broke, I had this issue with the ports kernel for awhile
<cjwatson> rtg: if you send me a .deb and your current diff to debian/d-i/ if any, I can take care of it
<cjwatson> NCommander: no
<cjwatson> the kernel's udeb build process is a build-dependency of d-i, not the other way round
<rtg> cjwatson: I'm having trouble getting that far. the build unit I have isn't really stable.
<cjwatson> surprised you're getting as far as kernel-wedge then :)
<apw> did we get a porter yet? i thought that was in progres
<rtg> cjwatson: I haven't yet, at least on the babbage.
<cjwatson> even a filesystem tree wouldn't hurt, though I realise you've been having fs problems
<rtg> cjwatson: I'm not sure I follow? a file system tree/
<rtg> ?
<cjwatson> as in the build tree
<rtg> its just the jaunty git repo
<cjwatson> the tree with .o and .ko files in
<cjwatson> not the source
<rtg> ah
<rtg> i have it for one flavour
<apw> debian/build/foo
<rtg> it take a looong time
<rtg> about 3 hours per flavour
<cking> eek
<cjwatson> all I mean is, if you can send me the bits that actually require a real arm machine to build, then I can probably make use of that to fix debian/d-i/
<rtg> I think the buildd must be quite a  bit faster
<rtg> cjwatson: I don't suppose you could convine Adam or elmo to let you use a buildd for awhile?
<rtg> convince, even
<apw> pgraner, were you chasing down what  happened to the porter for arm?  i had the feeling that it existed but wasn't integrated, perhaps that is available for someone like cjwatson
<pgraner> apw: last I heard was that the hardware was with elmo
<pgraner> apw: and was told he was taking care of it
<cjwatson> rtg: I doubt it
<apw> so cjwatson might be able to 'borrow' that
<cjwatson> I suspect it will be just as quick to get the porter box switched on for everyone as it would be to get it switched on for just me
<cjwatson> but I will try to find out what's happening with it
<apw> heh works for me
<pgraner> cjwatson: I'll follow up with elmo after this
<rtg> cjwatson: that would be good. these babbage boards are shaky at best
<pgraner> ok, lets move on as we are running short on time....
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<lool> rtg: I have an evm here running jaunty; I could give you ssh access if it helps; it's not very fast and has relatively low memory, but ogra built kernels on i
<pgraner> Open floor ....
<lool> it
<lieb> how responsive is linux-dvb? I'm working on #181759
<rtg> lool: you know, I could probably do the same. I have a fire breather.
 * BenC reminds ppl of the open week...kernel session on Friday for dkms usage
<lieb> and the h/w spt for the cx88 dev has been around for a while and was in pre-hardy.  the vendors stuff has not made it to the git
<pgraner> BenC: thanks that a good point
 * apw queries what an open week is
<pgraner> dholbach: can explain the best....
<cjwatson> rtg mentioned ext4 earlier; there's been at least one report so far of grub failing to boot an upgraded ext3->ext4 filesystem (only by mail so far, ubuntu-devel-discuss, Subject: Problem with patched grub1 & ext4)
 * pgraner hopes dholbach is nearby and can jump in quickly
<apw> lieb, is that stuff we are carrying and is not making its way upstream?
<cjwatson> so that may be one cking needs to dive into ...
<ogasawara> apw: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek
<cking> cjwatson: will do
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek
<cjwatson> oh, Leann beat me to it
<ogasawara> :)
<lieb> apw, not only that, no one either pulled it or pushed it.  I'm thinking to push it just to get it done
<pgraner> would be good for the new guys to attend...
<BenC> Yeah, you guys can help seed questions
<apw> lieb, yeah i think it does need someone to take and push things that are lingering
<BenC> nothing worse than dead air, and me rambling for an hour
<pgraner> BenC: you are giving it again right?
<BenC> pgraner: right
<lieb> that's what I figured.  wanted to know what the pattern/history was
<pgraner> Anyone have anything else?
<apw> just that the lpia kernel is close to being uploadable
<apw> (for jaunty)
<pgraner> apw: do you know what the drop dead time is from slangasek?
<apw> no not got that info
<rtg> pgraner: its not an A3 deliverable
<BenC> pgraner: since it's just linux-lpia, it should be low impact
<apw> i thought it was the end of today
<pgraner> rtg, BenC: davidm and crew need it for a contractual reasons I found out this AM
<rtg> on A3?
<pgraner> rtg: yep
<pgraner> lool: can you confirm?
<slangasek> what's dropping dead?
<pgraner> rtg: we can take this offline with the mobile team...
<pgraner> slangasek: latest time you can upload it
<lool> pgraner: I don't think it's critical for A3 itself
<lool> I think it's just important that we get up-to-date lpia support with patches and all in jaunty
<pgraner> lool: davidm told me this AM that it was key for one partner
<lool> Ok; I'm probably not aware enough to confirm then
<pgraner> lool, apw: lets take this offline and we can sort it as we are out of time
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting
<pgraner> Same time next week.
<pgraner> rtg: can you run it as I'm on travel Mon & Tues of next week
<rtg> pgraner: yeah, I think I'm still at home.
<pgraner> ok, great
<pgraner> thanks
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:01.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 14 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 14 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team
<dantalizing> 'sup huats
<huats> hello dantalizing !
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: LoCo Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 14 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team
<ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubottu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: Current meeting: LoCo Council 15 Jan 00:00: Foundation Team | 15 Jan 01:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 08:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 20:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 21:00: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 14 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-14
<mvo_> @time berlin
<ubottu> Current time in Europe/Berlin: January 14 2009, 15:15:07 - Next meeting: Foundation Team in 1 hour 44 minutes
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Foundation Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java
 * mvo_ looks around
 * robbiew waves
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<liw> hi
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<robbiew> hmm...Mootbot is broken
<Keybuk> I can pretend to be mootbot
<robbiew> heh...it's not like this channel isn't logged
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> Agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0114#Agenda
<evand> hi
<robbiew> waiting on doko, james_w, slangasek, and cjwatson
 * james_w waves
<robbiew> :)
<doko> hi
 * slangasek waves
<cjwatson> hi
<robbiew> great...folks are here and I don't have to use mootbot :P
<TheMuso> heh
<robbiew> first topic is Jaunty Alpha 3
<robbiew> how's that going?
 * TheMuso is kind of glad he is working early today, going to be stinking hot...
<robbiew> silence
<Keybuk> robbiew: I was very restrained and expressly didn't break things today ;)
<Keybuk> I'm going to wait until Friday
<robbiew> heh...thanks
<cjwatson> one installer glitch (bug 316618) fixed today, which I've asked slangasek to respin for
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 316618 in apt-setup "jaunty alternate cd media change error" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/316618
<evand> encrypted home directory support in the desktop installer is broken.  On it, but it may end up being a release note.
<liw> I'm holding off a system-cleaner upload until Friday, too; spec for that should be ready, waiting for approval (and package waits for third and last name)
<cjwatson> images grossly oversized due to new OOo Java dependencies
<slangasek> OOo has us a bit behind schedule, java snuck back into the CD dependencies with the latest upload and that puts us a little oversized
<cjwatson> 90M is a little? :-)
<robbiew> whoa
<robbiew> heh
<TheMuso> OUCH!
<slangasek> the OOo-l10n build should finish in a few hours at which point we should have some right-sized images again
<slangasek> cjwatson: smaller than a DVD!
<mvo_> I have a pending upload for update-manager to fix system where nvidia binary drivers got removed during the upgrade
<cjwatson> it's the "taller than Ronnie Corbett" competition - you can be very short and still win
<slangasek> ah, no - OOo-l10n is already built
<slangasek> so I'll start respinning the desktop images now and see where we get
<mvo_> and asac and I debugged a upgrade issue with libnspr today
<robbiew> so Alpha 3 most likely released sometime Friday evening?
<mvo_> I had trouble getting the upgrade tester going, kvm in jaunty is not my friend currently
<cjwatson> good news for a3 is that I spent a kind of a skunkworks day doing ext4 support in the installer
<slangasek> robbiew: still aiming for Thursday evening
<cjwatson> which seems to be popular
<robbiew> slangasek: ok, thnx
<slangasek> there are already some images posted and ready for validation
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I bet Ted still didn't change his wiki page? :p
<cjwatson> not last I checked ;-)
<robbiew> so moving on, I've been steadily adding to the 9.04 status page
<robbiew> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04
<robbiew> should be complete by tomorrow
<doko> hmm, are the java deps really needed for OOo?
<robbiew> gives me a single point of tracking status...and a place for others to quickly check
<slangasek> doko: same as before, I think
<slangasek> they crept in now because Tuesday was the first day OOo 3 was on the daily builds
<cjwatson> calc uploaded to take them out again
<cjwatson> 1:3.0.1~rc1-2ubuntu3
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> mvo_: (kvm in jaunty has been working fine for me, for the record ...)
<TheMuso> So does openoffice lose much functionality without those deps?
<slangasek> TheMuso: AIUI, the answer is "no moreso than before"
<TheMuso> slangasek: Right.
<mvo_> cjwatson: it freeze for me when I do a upgrade test (interpid->jaunty) at random places (amd64 host)
<cjwatson> ugh. (I'm on i386)
<mvo_> cjwatson: usually after ~45min or so :/
<james_w> though the mailing list suggests it may be a little more than before
<mvo_> cjwatson: aha, I shall try on a i386 machine
<evand> amd64 here and no issues with kvm thusfar
<cjwatson> OOo certainly isn't full-featured without Java, and people using it substantially are still going to need to be advised to install the openoffice.org metapackage (as before, only maybe just more so)
<mvo_> evand: hmm, how strnage. do you use virtio?
<cjwatson> but I think it's still at a basic useful level on the CD without Java
<slangasek> if nothing else, it's nice to let users only have to download 100MB to get a usable OOo instead of 250MB :)
<TheMuso> Agreed.
<slangasek> mumble, OOo also hasn't finished building on amd64
<calc> TheMuso: you can't search help without java, so some functionality is lost
<slangasek> so the current desktop CD build is just a smoketest to see if it sizes right on i386, then
<TheMuso> calc: Right.
<slangasek> calc: oh, in that case perhaps we should be taking the help packages off the CD instead of breaking the java dep?  or is there a useful non-search mode for help?
<evand> mvo_: Possibly.  I certainly do not pass such an option to kvm on the command line but the virtio modules are loaded in the VM
<calc> slangasek: i think i may have to take a knife to suitesparse packaging because I have a feeling that demoting lpsolve may break calc
<slangasek> (also, are upstream unaware that people have implemented 'searching' before in C? :)
<slangasek> calc: hmm, ok
<calc> slangasek: it appears there is a lib in suitesparse that isn't currently broken out that could be to allow it to work without pulling all of it in
<doko> calc: what are the *additional* bits that require java in 3.0?
<calc> slangasek: upstream wrote Java and needs to justify its existence
<slangasek> calc: can you file a bug asking for the split, and target it to alpha-4?
<calc> doko: i don't have the specific details but help apparently uses lucene for searching which in turn is a java library
<slangasek> robbiew: have we derailed sufficiently yet? :)
<calc> slangasek: i will once i can look into what it takes, i will probably end up splitting it in the process myself
<robbiew> heh...about to jump in ;)
<robbiew> but always think a healthy discussion is good, too
<robbiew> so there's a link to the targeted bugs for Jaunty in the Agenda...no need to discuss it. however, I would like to briefly chat about http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/jaunty-buglist.html
<robbiew> mvo and cjwatson look lonely on the Foundations list
<robbiew> :P
<robbiew> perhaps I should assign these to the ubuntu-foundations LP team...then we work them from there
<cjwatson> mdz has suggested taking on the 'apport-package' bugs (mostly upgrade bugs) and farming them out, which would flesh it out somewhat
<robbiew> similar to what Desktop has done
<cjwatson> there are nearly 700 of those in main and restricted
<mdz> probably a lot of gardening to be done there
<mvo_> I can have a look at those
<cjwatson> robbiew: I don't think farming out the existing list will improve matters; personally, I think it would be better to add more to that list that correspond to the expertise of other members of the team
<mvo_> (but its probably good to have more people looking at them, there are *many* :)
<robbiew> cjwatson: ok
<cjwatson> i.e. I think the existing ones are basically appropriately assigned
<liw> robbiew, I was looking for instructions about how to deal with bugs for the bug fixing initiative the other day, and tried to get a consensus out of the related discussion on the distro list last year... without much luck :(
<Keybuk> those are pretty much all installer + package manager bugs atm
<cjwatson> exactly
<cjwatson> which is just a reflection of how only me and mvo have been using those tags, I think :)
<slangasek> 78552 is an interesting bug to have there, the fact that /sbin/update-grub complains is part of a deliberate transition plan by the Debian maintainers
<Keybuk> tags?
<robbiew> liw: yes, I'll take that as a ToDo
<liw> robbiew, thanks
<cjwatson> so, there are a couple of things that tie into the bug-fixing initiative
<robbiew> there still seems to be some cloudiness on how we approach this effort
<cjwatson> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamBugLists describes the different approaches one might take
<robbiew> Keybuk: tags defined there ^
<cjwatson> number 3 on that list is what corresponds to the jaunty-buglist URL robbiew posted above
<cjwatson> i.e. things tagged with qa-jaunty-foundations end up on that list; I've been using that as a way to say "our team ought to be addressing this for jaunty"
<Keybuk> would we add these tags if we were intending to address it?
<Keybuk> or are they for finding bugs nobody's assigned to, and getting someone assigned to them?
<liw> cjwatson, so: add tag to get on that list Leann produces, and assign to a person to get one's name onto the list as well?
<cjwatson> there is a separate notion that came up on distro-team, which is the "I'd love to have some time to fix this ancient crufty bug" thing
<cjwatson> Martin Pitt proposed the "pet-bug" tag for that
<cjwatson> these are confusingly similar notions (IMO), but I think they can be distinguished
<robbiew> it would be nice if we had a central point to refer to for the bug fix effort...and maybe https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamBugLists is it
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I would say that if it's something you'd like to fix just because it's been annoying you (wishlist bugs would often fall into this category), then "pet-bug"; if it's something that you think is important and basically it's a disgrace that our team has been slacking at fixing it :-), then "qa-jaunty-foundations"
<cjwatson> regardless of whether that means you or somebody else
<robbiew> however, things like the "pet-bug" tag aren't documented there...and that's where confusion creeps in
<cjwatson> some of my bugs on that list are mistagged because they predated "pet-bug", but I was planning to solve this by fixing the bugs
 * slangasek grins
 * robbiew will get the "pet-bug" tag stuff added to the TeamBugList page
<robbiew> moving on to 8.04.2
<robbiew> cjwatson: do you have an ETA for the manifest list?
<cjwatson> end of the week
<robbiew> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> which conveniently coincides with the drop-dead date for updates
<robbiew> :)
<robbiew> looking at bugs, I see 33...right?
<robbiew> milestoned
<robbiew> so am I to assume that all 33 will be resolved by release? or that some may get bumped
<slangasek> almost everything on there that's not already 'fix committed' are going to be deferred
<robbiew> gotcha
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> then moving on
<robbiew> reminder for the sponsorship queue :)
<robbiew> I realize with Alphas, LTS, Distro Sprint coming...can get pushed to the side
<cjwatson> is everyone in the habit of listing their sponsorship activity for the week in their activity report, by now?
<james_w> the queue length is quite stable currently, but there are some long standing items that need addressing from what I can see
<robbiew> it's either no...or just don't have many people doing it
<slangasek> cjwatson: yes
<robbiew> heh
 * mvo_ tries to do it
<james_w> I usually just list "sponsoring", I can't always be bothered to look up the list
<cjwatson> I only managed one item this week, which I consider a failure
<cjwatson> I do write it down as I go along
<robbiew> james_w: that's acceptable
<robbiew> I can always look at the list ;)
 * mvo_ has done only a small number too (at least compared to the sponsoring masters james_w and dholbach :)
<Keybuk> I haven't yet habit-formed checking the sponsoring queue
<robbiew> ohh...Keybuk is shamed! lol
<TheMuso> I got some in this past week, however I find that by the time I get to it, its usually taken care of, due to the whole time zone thing I think.
<TheMuso> Depends on how early I get to it./
<robbiew> ok, just want folks to keep it in mind during the week...which is why I always bring it up ;)
<slangasek> TheMuso: but... but... your timezone is earlier :)
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> next topic is the Objectives Guidance
<robbiew> just want to point out that they are only guidelines...so no need to think yours have to be like them
<robbiew> I didn't know the PDR tool locks them in stone once submitted and approved
<robbiew> so it would be better to have self-development style objectives
<robbiew> versus business/project related ones...as those can change
<Keybuk> oh, was meaning to mention something
<Keybuk> my PDR has gone a bit wibbly
<robbiew> wibbly???
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> it seems to think I report to you now
<Keybuk> which is fine
<Keybuk> but it also seems to think lots of people report to me
<robbiew> oh
<Keybuk> and, well, that seems to upset it a lot
<robbiew> promotion for me!!
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> Keybuk: talk to bongrad
<Keybuk> yeah
<robbiew> anyways, if you have business related goals...and they change along the way, don't worry about it
<robbiew> I would expect common sense to prevail, and not meeting that objective would not count against you
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> last thing on my list
<robbiew> EC2!
<robbiew> :)
<robbiew> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/AmazonEC2
<robbiew> I've listed the only idea there, on the main list that will be reviewed tomorrow
<robbiew> anyone else have anything?
<robbiew> mvo: you had the update testing idea, right?
<mvo> robbiew: yes
<liw> james_w had an idea too, I think
<robbiew> right
<james_w> well, it was liw's idea
<mvo> robbiew: its a bit cloudy to me still how exactly to do it without using a big amounts of resources on the ec2
<robbiew> james_w and mvo: you can directly add to https://wiki.canonical.com/CoP/EngineeringManagement/AmazonEC2
<robbiew> mvo: that's ok
<james_w> but rebuilds + piuparts + other things
<robbiew> mvo: just a brainstorm list at the moment
<mvo> I would love to have install/remove testing, that kind of basic testing is already pretty helpful
<james_w> mvo: could upgrade tests be run every day without too much handholding?
<evand> I'm not sure if it fits the model of EC2, but I've wanted to do automatic installation testing for a while now.
<mvo> james_w: absolutely, the thing that run them now is totally non-interactive etc - its just that is uses kvm and not ec2/xen currently
<evand> erm, nevermind
<james_w> mvo: cool. With an in-amazon mirror it may not be too expensive.
<mvo> james_w: yeah, if that can be done, that would be cool
<robbiew> fyi - that is being setup
<robbiew> in-amazon mirror
<mvo> aha, nice
<james_w> mvo: I like your kvm test-upgrade my machine thing
<mvo> then it should indeed be less pain, if the base image can be cached in-amazon too that means even less resource usage
<james_w> mvo: would it be possible ro have some of that without massive amounts of bandwidth being needed between me and ec2?
<mvo> james_w: thanks :) evand had this idea to make it even more spectacular by using aufs overlay on the real system
<james_w> ooh
<mvo> james_w: I have a branch and some code, its a bit scary but it seems to be working
<evand> wonderful!
<james_w> e.g. upload package list + tarball of /etc/ or something?
<mvo> james_w: that is a interessting idea too
<mvo> james_w: yeah, that should be doable
<robbiew> mvo, james_w, evand: make sure to capture this idea here:  https://wiki.canonical.com/CoP/EngineeringManagement/AmazonEC2
<robbiew> under Foundations
<james_w> got it open :-)
<robbiew> right now, I had a generic "Test Upgrades" line :/
<robbiew> sweet
<robbiew> james_w: thanks
<robbiew> that's all I got.
<robbiew> AOB?
<james_w> daily packages?
<robbiew> sure...the POC, right?
<james_w> I'd appreciate suggestions for packages that would be good to have dailies of that aren't going to be too temperamental
<james_w> I imagine kernel, firefox, OOo would break too often
<cjwatson> I think I mailed a few to Robbie a while back
<mvo> james_w: I would love to see compiz here
<james_w> I think evolution would be good to have.
<james_w> ah, compiz cool.
<robbiew> cjwatson: hmm...really?
 * robbiew checks
<TheMuso> james_w: Don't the kernel team have their own daily build stuff anyway?
<cjwatson> just trying to find it
<cjwatson> I certainly suggested some constraints that should be applied
<robbiew> yes...I remember that
<james_w> TheMuso: probably, I don't fancy taking that one on
<TheMuso> One could actually be pulseaudio. I was going to do it myself into my PPA, but if we have this daily build spec, then it may be worthwhile doing for that.
<TheMuso> Pulseaudio is in git however.
<cjwatson> there's a project called 'ubuntu-bleedingedge' that started trying to do this, and it would be a useful banner
<cjwatson> it even has some code with an initial proof of concept
<james_w> TheMuso: I'll add it to the list, thanks
<james_w> thanks cjwatson, I'll check it out
<cjwatson> that project seems moribund at the moment, but could be revived
<cjwatson> lp:~ubuntu-bleedingedge/bleedingedge/trunk and there's a wiki page
<cjwatson> robbiew: Subject: Re: [Fwd: Daily upstream packages (Re: Laptop hotkey support)]
<robbiew> cjwatson: ah, thnx
<cjwatson> james_w: I'll forward you this mail
<james_w> thanks
<james_w> as this is Ubuntu-external I'll be starting after feature freeze on it
<robbiew> cjwatson: found it ;)
<robbiew> james_w: ok, and you mentioned a spec for this right?  Figure we should at least have a documented plan
<james_w> yeah, I'll write up a spec, or find an existing one to co-opt
<robbiew> ok...just shoot me the link in an email
<james_w> sure
<robbiew> anything else?  cjwatson: campaign speech for Tech Board? lol
 * cjwatson grins
<liw> did we skip "Good News"?
<robbiew> that is Good News :)
<robbiew> liw: on it now
<cjwatson> my good news was ext4
<robbiew> ah, yes
<cjwatson> oh, I'm going through the archive reorg videos now and trying to shore up the spec
<liw> my good news for today is that I managed to survive an encounter with a screwdriver
<robbiew> liw: lol...what?
<cjwatson> I have been a naming fascist and nailed down a single set of nomenclature
 * mvo advices liw to stay away from hardware
<liw> (had to tweak my desktop machines a bit)
<robbiew> cjwatson: name nazi
<liw> mvo, I try, I try...
 * TheMuso is starting to get the hang of dealing with alsa hda quirks, and maanged to get an Ubuntu originated quirk patch applied upstream, with many more to come hopefully.
<cjwatson> (screw "lobes", I went with "layers")
<TheMuso> bad news, my typing sucks. :p
<robbiew> cjwatson: yeah...lobes was nasty
<liw> cjwatson, if you run out of English words, I can send you a Finnish dictionary ;)
<cjwatson> and realised that layers are in fact identical to Mark's package sets
<cjwatson> so have been trying to make the spec reflect that
<robbiew> #endmeeting ....for Keybuck-bot :P
<slangasek> I thought it was "cells"
<slangasek> ohwell :)
<liw> thanks
 * mvo likes cells
<james_w> thanks all
<evand> thanks!
<TheMuso> thanks
<mvo> thanks
 * Keybuk likes pies
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> thanks all
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java
 * TheMuso goes and syncs ubunt and studio isos.
 * heno waves 
 * ara waves
<sbeattie> hey
 * ogasawara waves
<bdmurray> hello
 * sbeattie disappears for a second to replentish his caffiene supply
<davmor2> hello everybody
<charlie-tca> hello
<bdmurray> charlie-tca: hello
<pedro_> hello everybody
 * schwuk waves
<heno> welcome all!
<heno> #startmeeting
<davmor2> no bot
<heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> * Jaunty spec review
<heno> I've updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap with Jaunty spec info
<schwuk> davmor2: you could pretend to be the bot
<heno> There are a few bits missing (ran short of time)
<davmor2> schwuk: :P
<schwuk> heno: looks good
<heno> please add other items you are working on that are not registered as specs to the bottom of that page
<heno> and please review it for general sanity
<heno> There are still a few specs that need more drafting and approval - please try to get that wrapped up this week
<heno> Let's not go through the whole list at this meeting though
<heno> we can cover it briefly on the c.c call
<heno> instead lets focus on Hardy and Jaunty release testing
<heno> * Hardy point release testing
<heno> sbeattie: can you give an update on 8.04.2 SRU testing?
<heno> esp areas you are blocked and could use some help
<sbeattie> sure, I've been working on the base-installer one (bug 306356) which looks good for hardy (and intrepid), but I'd like cjwatson to verify my results, because they didn'tmatch his testcase.
<davmor2> I've done some testing on bugs past me by slangasek to help clear those
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 306356 in base-installer "apt-setup/security_host is ignored" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/306356
<cjwatson> (one moment, looking)
<heno> davmor2: also installer bugs right?
<sbeattie> I was also poking at the ntfs-3g one (bug 204133) as it affects wubi, but couldn't reproduce it, so I left a ping asking for soeone affected by it to try testing it out.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 204133 in wubi/8.04 "wubi install unusable - Buffer I/O error on device loop0" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204133
<davmor2> heno: yes
<cr3> regarding the QA roadmap, the blueprints section mentions "Intrepid". shouldn't it mention "Jaunty"?
<pedro_> FYI there's an issue with evolution 2.24.3 package; bug 316726, which should be fixed pretty soon
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 316726 in evolution-exchange "startup crash after 2.24.3 update" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/316726
<pedro_> 2.24.3 from proposed.
<heno> Note - the cut-off for SRU testing is Monday - at that point we start rolling ISOs and testing those
<cjwatson> sbeattie: the test case is incorrect in that it leaves it implicit that all tests of proposed d-i component changes need to be run with apt-setup/proposed=true
<davmor2> sbeattie: I think that got fixed to a degree
<heno> davmor2: have you had a chance to smoke test any hardy ISOs?
<sbeattie> ones I could use help with are the hardware specific ones, bug 59695, bug 204483, bug 288859 and bug 267570
<bdmurray> sbeattie: I could try the wubi one I guess...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 59695 in dell "High frequency of load/unload cycles on some hard disks may shorten lifetime" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/59695
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 204483 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "[Hardy] Closing Laptop lid corrupts screen and beeps" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204483
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 288859 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "Need Pipe-A quirk for 855 and earlier chipsets (like 1014:0513)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/288859
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 267570 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "Dell C400 (i830) freezes in Hardy - Needs PipeA Quirk" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/267570
<davmor2> heno: I've had a quick look at them once installed for the case I was given
<cjwatson> sbeattie: oh, but do you just mean that the host name you saw was different from the test case - us.archive rather than security?
<sbeattie> cjwatson: yes, that part.
<cjwatson> sbeattie: I think that's a mistake in the test case, yes, and also a not very serious pre-existing bug in base-installer
<davmor2> heno: there was an issue with umenu and wubi but that should be fixed in today's image
<heno> cr3: could you have a look at sbeattie's hw-specific bugs and see if we have the hardware in Montreal?
<sbeattie> cjwatson: hrm, that's what I thought the patch was fixing, that $MIRROR (us.archive) would get used, rather than $SECMIRROR (aka apt-setup/security_host)
<cr3> heno: noted
<heno> which brings us to ...
<heno> * cert lab hw data dump status (schwuk)
<cjwatson> sbeattie: oh, err - yeah, you're right. insufficient coffee
<sbeattie> cjwatson: no worries, wanted to make sure it wasn't insufficient coffee on my end.
<cjwatson> sbeattie: I've corrected the test case. I *think* it passes now given your comments?
<sbeattie> cjwatson: yes, I agree, I think it passes.
<schwuk> heno: can you add a bit more detail to that?
<sbeattie> hardware dump: ogasawara and I were hoping, as an interim thing, if we could get just a raw dump (possibly a tarball) of the current hardware we have in the certification lab, at a more detailed level than just model number, but listing components.
<heno> schwuk: are you able to generate a dump of the hardware info from the machines we have that can be searched locally?
<heno> stuff that has already been gathered during various testing
<schwuk> heno: sure - I'll cook something up
<heno> but needs to be mined from the db
<sbeattie> schwuk: basically something we can grep for things like pci ids locally, to use in identifying whether we have hw available for testing specific issues.
<heno> a tarball with a dir for each system perhaps, with various files in each
<bdmurray> sbeattie: I thought cr3 made the database available once
<schwuk> sbeattie, heno: sure
<heno> we could then use local tools to search
<sbeattie> bdmurray: if so, I've forgotten the details. I've access to the website, but there's no easy way to search for whether we have specific hardware through it.
<heno> I think extracting it from the raw database is not trivial without knowledge of it's structure
<cr3> bdmurray: the database is more complicated to query than flat text files
<heno> because of the way results are stored
<davmor2> schwuk: can you not sudo lshw -html each device it will give you something like http://www.davmor2.co.uk/64test.html
<cr3> davmor2: the information is extracted from the database which contains structured information, so the output will have to be generated based on that information
<heno> schwuk: ok, thanks
<schwuk> davmor2: we already have the info, we just have to re-constitute it
<heno> * Testcase wiki migration; automated scripts
<heno> ogasawara and I looked at this yesterday
<heno> the structure of the pages we have and want are quite different
<davmor2> go on
<heno> so writing sensible scripts might be more work than copying the content across
<heno> I suggest we get a dump of the pages from IS from the server and paste it in and refactor from there
<heno> schwuk: do we have access to the moin data dir?
<heno> (on the testcases wiki)
 * schwuk checks
<heno> that way we would have the attachments and history
<ara> heno: if that solutions is possible, it would be great
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<heno> schwuk: can you coordinate that with IS, getting the dump and getting it uploaded?
<schwuk> heno: no. We'll need either an RT to get acces, or the content copied accross
<schwuk> heno: sure
<heno> davmor2: can we speak tomorrow about the refactoring we need to do afterward?
<heno> schwuk: both would be ideal
<davmor2> yes no probs
<schwuk> Where do we want the pages put?
<heno> under their current names
<heno> then we can rename from there
<heno> that's the end of the agenda
<schwuk> So basically the whole of /Testing right?
<heno> schwuk: Testing/Cases only
<schwuk> heno: Got it.
<heno> any other business for the meeting?
<davmor2> yes
<davmor2> is there a way to stop the dl-ubuntu-test-iso script exiting when it hits an issue with md5sum?
<sbeattie> davmor2: yes, one sec
<cr3> davmor2: what's this script?
<davmor2> Xubuntu is the cause this time but it is in the live which means the alternate section can't be downloaded using it
<sbeattie> davmor2: you could turn off verification of md5sums
<heno> cr3: used for ISO testing - would be worth looking at for the satellite servers too
<davmor2> cr3: it's a script which pulls all the isos
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Isoscript
<sbeattie> davmor2: give me a bit and I think I can fix it up so that it doesn't abort on the md5sum error.
<cr3> heno: the images/archives that need to be tested are communicated to the satellite servers from the web server, so I'm not sure how useful this might be but I'll nonetheless look into the script
<davmor2> cr3: I have it as a cron job so I get the latest daily each morning before I sit down to test :)
<cr3> davmor2: do you have the latest hardy daily too?
<davmor2> yes
<davmor2> script does it all :)
<cr3> if I run the bzr command on the wiki, I get: bzr: ERROR: Connection error: curl connection error (Problem with the SSL CA cert (path? access rights?))
<heno> WFM
<heno> ok, let's wrap it up
<heno> #endmeeting
<schwuk> thanks heno
<heno> thanks everyone!
<sbeattie> cr3: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/ubuntu-qa-tools/master
<ara> thanks!
<sbeattie> thanks.
<davmor2> cr3: works for me
<davmor2> 51 revisions
<davmor2> thanks
<cr3> this works for me: bzr branch lp:ubuntu-qa-tools
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<MTecknology> what's the bot in here?
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-15
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<lool> Ubuntu Mobile Meeting in 5 minutes
 * ogra rushes to make some quick coffee
 * lool finishes his tiramisu
<NCommander> whats tiramisu?
<ogra> yummy
<ogra> now i'm hungry
 * lool throws Google on NCommander 
 * NCommander has flashes of hummus and chips
<davidm> #startmeeting
<StevenK> ENOMOOTBOT
<Hobbsee> always a promising start.
<StevenK> Haha
<davidm> Yea, great.
<persia> MootBot, #startmeeting
<Hobbsee> are you going to play the part of mootbot too?
<davidm> OK the meeting is started no mootbot so the fun commences.
<StevenK> The nick is registered, I didn't want to get killed
<davidm> OK lets get started
<davidm> persia you did the agenda for today so....
<persia> OK.  Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090115
<persia> First up: action items from the last meeting:
<persia> I reviewed and assigned the open specifications.
<persia> I also sent reminders to everyone I thought would be good to do stuff, and got corrections.
<persia> ogra was to finish the touchscreen spec
<ogra> working on it
<ogra> i had so much other stuff, but i'm happy to report that evtouch isnt ftbfs anymore and in jaunty :)
 * lool still didn't finish specs; I'm really late on this as these are to be completed and reviewed by tomorrow
<davidm> persia, so all spec's are assigned now?
<persia> davidm, I believe so: I'll triple-check
<ogra> so we have at least the old touchscreen stuff back in (which didnt look like it would be possible, not even our X team could help here)
<persia> [ACTION] persia to verify all specs are assigned
<StevenK> I think I can mark one of my specs as Implemented, but I can go through that later
<StevenK> ogra: I still need to re-seed it, that will happen post-alpha-3
<persia> Getting back to the agenda...
<davidm> OK is anyone going to have all of their assigned specs complete tomorrow?
<ogra> right, it also has the return of the "missing cursor" bug in the calibration tool
<ogra> but thats minor and i have a fix
<StevenK> davidm: Complete in what sense?
<ogra> implemented :P
<ogra> indeed
<StevenK> Haha
<StevenK> I have one of those, so nyah
<davidm> as in done writing and ready to approve
<davidm> I'd love implemented but some how I doubt that will happen
<davidm> persia, where are you on your spec's?
<lool> davidm: Implemented isn't due tomorrow fortunately  ;-)
<persia> I need a little help with mid-jaunty-launcher, and will be chasing StevenK tomorrow, but otherwise in reasonable shape.
<lool> I'll do my best to complete writing my specs up to approvable, perhaps over the week-end if I have no other choice
<davidm> Very true
<StevenK> persia: I'd like your help to proof-read my specs, I think some need a little belting and polishing
<davidm> lool,  if at all possible we are a week behind now.
<persia> StevenK, Sure.  Let's touch base in the morning.
<StevenK> persia: *nod*
<persia> So, let's get back to the agenda, shall we :)
<persia> lool was to bring up DVD with bfiller and others and see whether it's a firm need.
<lool> Concerning the UNR DVD: I brought it up during a call on UNR; I think they want an ISO and a way to install from USB, but they don't really care about it size
<lool> So they don't target what's in the current Ubuntu desktop DVD
<lool> Instead they target having an useful image with an identified set of langpacks
<lool> Exact requirements to be confirmed over the UNR jaunty integration
<ogra> well, the current iso is 1G big
<ogra> its already beyond any CD size
<lool> ogra: The current DVD ISO?
<StevenK> The current .img
<StevenK> It's close to 1GB
<ogra> the currnet ubuntu-netbook-remix,img
<ogra> s/\,/\./
<persia> So let's declare that to be a DVD-type image?
<ogra> well, an USB img :)
<davidm> That can work, it would fit on a DVD blank, just not use it all
<lool> Ok, let me bring back context here: people were frightened about the word "DVD" last week because the Ubuntu desktop DVD .iso is relatively large and hence painful to test
<ogra> yeah
<StevenK> The code will declare it oversize if it's >1GB, currently
<ogra> its 4.something gig
<StevenK> I can live with that, personally
<lool> The UNR folks don't care about what's in the Ubuntu desktop DVD, they just want a good image; I don't think they target a CD sized ISO either
<ogra> 1G is handleable ...
<lool> So 1 GB is fine, 500 MB is fine; what matters is that we end up with a good UNR image
<ogra> yeah
<mcasadevall> yay for system crashes
<lool> And right, I agree that testing a 1 GB or a 700 MB image doesn't make a big difference
<persia> So this can just be merged into unr-handling-jaunty, or does it need additional actions?
<lool> Now we will see how big the image ends up being with the requirements of the UNR jaunty integration
<ogra> the -mid image is intresting huge as well though ... is that through langpacks ?
<lool> If we want all langpacks and extra apps, it can take a bit of space
<davidm> merged into unr-handling-jaunty I think persia
<lool> Yeah
<StevenK> Keep in mind both images now have pools
<StevenK> And pools are large ... :-P
 * lool dives in
<ogra> but we only install langpacks, not lang-support, right ?
<ogra> -support is overkill and not needed
<persia> Right.  Let's move on then.
<persia> Current items:
<persia> First up: I'd like to propose a transition to tracking progress through a roadmap.
<persia> Quick review of the status of any specs or bugs that need discussion, to make sure things don't get missed.
<davidm> works for me
<persia> So, to support that, I've drafted https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap as a list of things for quick discussion.
<lool> I'm fine with listing spec status, but what do you mean to transition to it?  Would you remove anything from the current meeting?
<lool> What bugs qualify for the Bugs section?
<persia> Yep.  Drop the going around to several people and asking about them, but rather focusing on the work needing done.
<persia> Anything you've been chasing, or you want to discuss.
<ogra> well, we should do a quick rundown on the statuses
<persia> OK.  Going through them then:
<ogra> spcename: current status
<ogra> in each meeting until implemented imho
<ogra> *spec
<persia> ogra, That's the idea.
<StevenK> I think the roadmap should contain the driver for the spec
<ogra> we all only have three or four, should be fast
<lool> Ok; I don't quite see how that qualifies as a roadmap if we elect bugs there ourselves, but I don't really care about the name; I guess we want a) a list of specs to review on all meeting b) an entry in the recurring agenda to look at specs status
<ogra> StevenK, ++
<persia> Happy to add that.
<StevenK> lool: So we call a roadmap. Shrug
<persia> I just picked "Roadmap" because other teams had roadmaps.  I could call it something else.
<lool> That's not what I call a roadmap
 * ogra calls it Gladys
<lool> Let's call it JauntySpecs?
<persia> Except I don't expect it to be specs the entire cycle.
<mcasadevall> sorry about that.
<persia> I expect we'll have more bugs as we get closer to release.
<lool> For me a roadmap would typically encompass vaguer things than specs and cover more than just this cycle
<ogra> well, we will probably have specs that arent implemented by FF either
<lool> persia: What's wrong with pushing them in the agenda simply?
<ogra> and fall over into the next cycle
<lool> Or do you want to have all milestoned bug reviewed at all meetings?
<davidm> JauntyStatusReview??
<persia> lool, Yes, I'd like to review stuff at each meeting, just to make sure we're not missing things.
<lool> persia: I can't say it's a bad idea, it's exactly what we do during release team meetings, but it's going to take a while
<lool> I would find the output useful for sure
<persia> Right.  Let's go hrough them quick-like then.
<StevenK> Or we could update each spec with one line before the meeting
<StevenK> And then just ask if there is any questions, or cries for help
<persia> StevenK, That works for me.
<davidm> StevenK, +1 on that
<persia> OK.  Let's get them updated with oneliners for the next meeting, and proceed from there.  Everyone good with that?
<ogra> +1
<lool> Hmpf
<davidm> But since we did not do that this time can we just have a quick statement on each?
<StevenK> Right
<StevenK> I was about to say that
<persia> lool, You'd rather quick discussion in the meeting?
<ogra> only if there are issues i'D say
<lool> persia: I have nothing better to propose to what was proposed here
<persia> OK.  Let's go through them this time, and we'll look at updating the list with drivers and oneliners for next time.
 * StevenK likes one-liners
<lool> I wonder whether it would make sense to list spec status in AR instead, probably equal pain
<ogra> both
<ogra> i mean we should do both
<persia> mid-screen-rotation: I still need to review the status of Aberto's work.
<lool> I knew saying this someone would say both
 * StevenK silences lool and ogra
<persia> mid-jaunty-launcher: StevenK and I will chat tomorrow.
<StevenK> Sounds omnious
<persia> mobile-applications: Someone needs to volunteer to review an email reader
<NCommander> persia, I did
<NCommander> email and IM was assigned to me last meeting
<persia> NCommander, Sorry.  Missed that.  I'l update the spec
<NCommander> NP
<persia> mid-ship-seed-for-mobile-images : ?
<StevenK> Implemented
<StevenK> The spec needs some polish, but it's done
<lool> Link is broken
<persia> mid-application-switcher: not even drafted, but I ought get to that this weekend
<persia> mobile-team-seed-management ?
<lool> Drafter is you
<persia> heh.  I think StevenK already implemented about half of it, but I'll get it drafted so we can tell tomorrow then.
<persia> unr-handling-jaunty
<StevenK> Processing
<StevenK> Er
<StevenK> *Preceeding*
<persia> Proceeding?
<davidm> persia, yes
<persia> recovery-partition
<lool> recovery-partition: needs drafting
<StevenK> persia: As in, work is on-going
<lool> poulsbo-packaging: needs more complete drafting, implementation in progress AIUI
<StevenK> It is
 * NCommander thought recovery-parition was drafted
<NCommander> I looked at that spec
<persia> offline-installer: I've nearly completed the script to automate the testing, but need to write the spec
<ogra> offline-installer: looks like ready for review, persia drafted fine :) no coding work started yet
<lool> NCommander: Well the current spec is very vague and doesn't include UDS discussion
<StevenK> I'm being bad and working on specs before they're approved
<persia> ogra, Right.  I seem to have confied that with something else :)
<ogra> persia, erm, i'm the assinee :)
<persia> s/confined/confused/
<ogra> yeah
<persia> touchscreen?
<ogra> not sure that will fully make it, but we should have a GUI for the build tools in any case
<ogra> eneral-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling: drafting, needs to get in shape, tech info missing yet, BOF info there. looked into evdev code
<ogra> +g
<ogra> selection-of-arm-images: drafting, though there shouldnt be anything to do for the selection case, the BOF session covered everything, images were selected, needs enablement on the build servers once d-i is ready
<ogra> afaik NCommander looked at d-i and will go on there once we're ready
<lool> (It's not in the current 'Roadmap' page)
<ogra> right, its not really a spec
<ogra> since we did the selection
<NCommander> d-i is dep-wait on the kernel udebs
<NCommander> WHich aren't very happy ATM
<ogra> but we should keep it to see how far we got on the build servers
<ogra> or the general image status... or some such
<StevenK> ogra: And there is no image buildd for armel yet
<ogra> StevenK, how could teher be, we have no d-i and no livefs buildd :)
<ogra> and no initramfs possibilities
<lool> persia: I don't think mid-display-manager warrants being listed, but perhaps the bug relater to startx / CK should be?
<ogra> live cant hapen unless there is initramfs support
<StevenK> ogra: When I say image buildd, I mean livefs buildd
<lool> squashfs-initrds: we need to kill that spec; I should just copy notes from UDS and #ubuntu-devel and close this
<ogra> yeah, but there are other showstoppers anyway that need solving first
<persia> lool, Yes, I'd think so.  What's the bug number?  Do you want to cover it?
<ogra> no kernel, no initrd -> no live image
<lool> I don't have it off hand unfortunately
<persia> lool, When you find it, just remove the spec, and add the bug.
<persia> Anyway, I think I have a solution for bug #291670, but I'm still trying to figure out how the testsuite needs to be written.  Should be done in a couple days.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 291670 in base-installer "LPIA installer missing kernel" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/291670
<lool> So, we've spent > 10 minutes on spec status
<lool> But this only covers our "mobile" specs
<ogra> because we werent prepared
<persia> Well, this is the mobile meeting, no?
<lool> I have a problem with covering only MID and "mobile" specs progress in this meeting and not at all the other ones
<lool> persia: But we have no ARM meeting
<ogra> yeah, it should cover the team specs
<lool> And we spend more time on ARM stuff than on MID/mobile stuff
<ogra> which will hopefully change again :)
<ogra> once ARM is ready
<persia> lool, It's not really important how you spend your time: this set of specs is interesting to determine what needs doing, and how it's going for the Mobile flavours.
<ogra> during arch enablement/portin we should keep that status here as well imho
<ogra> it will vanish as soon as we get automated images and the archive is complete
<NCommander> There are a few outstanding ARM spec/issues that need discussion.
<lool> persia: I don't think it's fair to list half of the specs we work on and take action on that etc. every week and not cover the other half
<ogra> thats why i proposed to have an ARM section in this meeting :)
<persia> But this is the Mobile Meeting.
<lool> So as awful as it sounds, I'm tempted to propose that we have a mobile team meeting where mobile team is not the Ubuntu Mobile project's team, but something like the desktop and foundation and kernel and server teams
<ogra> and most of the mobile team works on AMR atm
<persia> Just because you're working also on something else, doesn't make this the only meeting.
<ogra> *ARM
<persia> Anyway, we're getting off-topic.  Let's go back to the agenda.
<persia> Any Other Business ?
<davidm> persia, we come back to my concern, I don't want to schedule another meeting
<persia> (related to the mobile flavours)
<davidm> persia, I propose we make the mobile meeting 1/2 hour and have a team projects meeting 1/2 hour
<ogra> ++
<NCommander> ++
<ogra> thats what i suggested from the beginning ... though i'd have said 1/3 for projects
<ogra> 1/3 for spec stauses
<ogra> 1/3 for general mobile stuff
<ogra> not in that order though
<davidm> OK 2/3 mobile meeting 1/3 hour other projects
<ogra> right
<lool> This meeting is supposedly about Ubuntu Mobile; there's nobody covering Ubuntu Mobile work outside of the team; I propose we hold a public team meeting where we discuss Ubuntu Mobile along other of the team's activity
<davidm> Lets face it we are enabling the entire main and most of universe so that includes mobile stuff
<lool> If we reach the point where we have enough Ubutnu Mobile topics to warrant a full meeting like the one we had until now, then we can reinstatee it
<ogra> lool, thats what davidm's setup above covers
<lool> Right, I'm insisting on the way we shuffle the names and official contents of this and the new meeting
<lool> Now this is not to say that contributions are not welcome, but it's a bit hard to bend ourselves so much right now
<ogra> the topic calls this "Ubuntu Mobile Team" so i dont see a prob here, we're discussion what the ubuntu mobile team works on
<ogra> (and note it doesnt say *canonical* mobile team ... *ubuntu* includes the community ... i dont understand the naming prob)
<lool> There's confusion between the Ubuntu Mobile project which is not related to arm and the mobile team, currenlty manned mostly by Canonical employees which work on ARM
<ogra> because we make that confusion up
<ogra> the channel topic has a clear name
<lool> I don't think so
<lool> We've put a process up for joining the ubuntu-mobile launchpad team which is aimed at MID/Netbook, not ARM
<ogra> so you would send people away that have worked with us on ARM stuff and want to discuss it in this meeting because they can grab us at the same time in a single place ?
<persia> Yes!
<persia> I'd suggest they go to the Desktop or Sever or Foundation meeting, and discuss it there.
<ogra> or would refuse them from entering the ubuntu-mobile LP team just because their MID interest is in n800 only ?
<persia> No reason not to discuss MID-on-arm here, or n800.
<NCommander> my issue with sending them to another team is the Mobile ARM guys our here, and not usually at the Desktop/Server/Foundations meeting
<davidm> Any we are all not going to be at the  Desktop/Server/Foundations meeting so this is the only place to catch all of us
<lool> How can we take community input on what would be best for Ubuntu MID/UMPC/UNR on one side, and Ubuntu ARM enablement on the other?
<Hobbsee> ask community people at the meeting?
<persia> Hobbsee ++
<ogra> by donating a part of the meeting time to ARM ... invite other teams to participate and tell the commnity about it
<lool> We don't have an Ubuntu ARM enablement meeting (for reasons described earlier); it's hard to cover these people
<ogra> and draw a clear line between the two sections
<Hobbsee> the other option is to make a LP poll, and stick it in the topic of #ubuntu-arm or something.
<Hobbsee> if you want to specifically target arm people.
<lool> Are some people who would quality as community people around?  Could you share your opinion?
<lool> *qualify
<Hobbsee> I don't have an opinion either way, sorry.  I don't follow anywhere near closely enough
<lool> Hobbsee: Would you mind replacing this meeting with one where half of it would be ARM and the other half MID/Netbook?
<ogra> 1/3
<ogra> 20min ...
<Hobbsee> Splitting the meeting into multiple sections means that the first one couldn't run overtime, which may be a problem.
<Hobbsee> lool: depends which was first, but I really don't mind either way.
<ogra> and it would need annoucement in the channels and MLs
 * ogra would see the "cant run over time" a good thing actually :)
<davidm> We are out of time folks
<lool> My feeling is that we've been designing this for easy access to the Ubuntu Mobile/MID/UMPC/Netbook community from the start, but didn't attract a lot of community so far and might have been optimizing the wrong way
<Hobbsee> The other general concern is if you start late due to technical difficulties (or lack of coffee), your first meeting could be forced very short (and presumably you can't overflow to -mobile, as others will be participating in the arm discussion)
<lool> Hobbsee: That's a good point
<davidm> 2 minutes left
<lool> I guess it's unlikely we come to any conclusion today
<StevenK> I like how "lack of coffee" is a reason for a late start
 * StevenK glances at davidm 
<Hobbsee> you'd probably do better to have 2 meetings @ the same time, on different days
<Hobbsee> StevenK: *grin*
<ogra> Hobbsee, thats what we want to avoid
<davidm> Hobbsee, that is a lot of meetings
<Hobbsee> davidm: this is true.  But presumably they should be short and sweet, and various people would only need to attend one or the other?
<lool> Unfortunately, it reaches a threshold on number of meetings and number of days where people have to wake up very early or stay up very late   :-/
<NCommander> Hobbsee, as a general rule of thumb, I think both myself and davidm would be very cranky to get up very early on another day
<Hobbsee> NCommander: may you never come to australia.
<davidm> If they are short and sweet then bundeling should be fin
<Hobbsee> lool: this is true.
 * lool :-)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<davidm> OK meeting closed
<lool> Ok folks, we have to leave the floor
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<persia> Who's here for the Java Team Meeting
<slytherin> me
<persia> Anyone else?
<persia> slytherin, Unless you've something extra to share, let's skip this week, and come back next week, when there are more of us.
<slytherin> persia: I have only one thing to tell.
<slytherin> The sync/merge of maven packages have stalled for now as I am not completely able to figure out why some packages have FTBFS in Ubuntu. ex. doxia-sitetools. I will probably continue the work over weekend.
<persia> You're working with ludovicc on this?
<slytherin> persia: not exactly. I haven't yet collaborated with him about build failures. I will do that hence forth.
<slytherin> in any case, the Debian developer who is uploading the package is uploading most of them to experimental. So for solving FTBFS I have to first check if any build dep from experimental will solve the problem.
<persia> OK.  I'd suggest checking with him, as he reported last week that he was deeply involved.
<slytherin> yup
<persia> OK.  Until next week then :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<mib_dmkxwlmf> hello
<mib_dmkxwlmf> can you speak spanish?
<mib_dmkxwlmf> or only english?
<juliux> hi
<popey> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<popey> thats not right
<ogra> its a very relaxed schedule :)
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15th Jan 21:00 UTC LoCo Council | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<popey> bah
<boredandblogging> ooh oops
<boredandblogging> forgot to move the meeting on the calendar
<boredandblogging> darn
<popey> nvm
<popey> glad I actually remembered ahead of time for once :)
<boredandblogging> heh
<boredandblogging> popey: how's life?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<popey> madly busy :)
<juliux> evening
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: LoCo Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<juliux> hi all
<boredandblogging> hey hey
<itnet7> hey there!
<dantalizing> wazzza
<cdrigby_Singapor> Good <your time of day here> everyone. I am here for the LoCo meeting, representing the Singapore group TUSG (http://ubuntu.sg)
<ziroday> cdrigby_Singapor: hey, its not started yet :)
<boredandblogging> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 15 2009, 21:01:23 - Current meeting: LoCo Council
<boredandblogging> shall we get started?
<boredandblogging> popey: ping
<boredandblogging> JanC: ping
<boredandblogging> effie not around?
<JanC> I'm here
<popey> pong
<boredandblogging> sweet
<juliux> i am also here
<boredandblogging> shall we start with Singapore and then do the rest of the agenda?
<juliux> sounds good
<popey> rock on
<ziroday> cdrigby_Singapor: this is the part where you speak :)
<cdrigby_Singapor> Hello everyone. Ziroday & I are here for the Singapore group.
<supervivid> and me
<cdrigby_Singapor> Aha. G'day, supervivid.
<boredandblogging> how many people were at the intrepid install fest?
<boredandblogging> pictures of the food look great :-P
<cdrigby_Singapor> I was not at that one myself (I was in the US at the time). Perhaps one of the others was at the event. I'm sorry I missed the food!
<supervivid> 5 members
<supervivid> the food were great!
<juliux> where there also some activities befor 2008? and what are your plans for 2009?
<juliux> any releaseparties again?
<supervivid> we will be planning a few activities, and release party is in the radar
<cdrigby_Singapor> 2008 - software freedom day, plus a follow up "welcome to Ubuntu" session for those that visited our SFD booth.
<cdrigby_Singapor> 2009 - Regular meetings, new user "clinics" held three or four times/year, SFD 2009.
<cdrigby_Singapor> A release party for next version, of course!
<ziroday> juliux: but to answer your question, before 2008 there was just loose organization and the setting up of infastructure such as websites, IRC and mainly getting everybody together
<juliux> ziroday: so 2008 was your year;)
<supervivid> yes
<cdrigby_Singapor> It will probably be February before we show much activity in 2009. Lunar New Year is soon, which is major holiday here in Singapore.
<boredandblogging> looks like you guys did great stuff for SFD
<JanC> ziroday: were the LoCo team members involved in Ubuntu-promotion before 2008?  (I mean, without calling yourselves "ubuntu singapore")
<ziroday> JanC: to some degree, there were no big events planned. However we were all together
<cdrigby_Singapor> I was using and promoting Ubuntu since 2005 or so. But I was in Paris, France before the end of 2006.
<JanC> you don't need (big) events necessarily, I was thinking about giving support etc.?
<ziroday> boredandblogging: yeah it was really great. Plus we were the only desktop orientated group there which rocked. Lots and lots of people at our stand
<juliux> any plans to get more people working/helping your locoteam?
<ziroday> JanC: ah support wise yes, the IRC and mailing list was up then. And were somewhat active. But as juliux said 2008 was our year
<cdrigby_Singapor> Juliux: Recruiting is a big concern. Attending community events, such as Interesthink, is going to be a focus for bringing in more folks.
<ziroday> juliux: However the issue is getting people from the "Oh hi this is neat" in the conferences to actually using and then being part of the loco. Were hoping  the forums which are more new user friendly will make that task easier
<cdrigby_Singapor> juliux: as well, using Facebook and various boards and sites around the area, we will advertise our regular meetings and events.
<boredandblogging> how about LUGs at universities?
<cdrigby_Singapor> juliux & boredandblogging: Many of us are are involved in other FOSS groups here. That is the other source of recruiting.
<JanC> are you working towards non-IT people too?
<boredandblogging> think you guys have a good start, but I would like to see more promotion and support
<cdrigby_Singapor> boredandblogging: Three universities have active FOSS groups: Singapore Management University, National University of Singapore, and Nanyang Technological University. They all joined us in participating in SFD.
<ziroday> JanC: yep, we met quite a few on SFD. Unfortunately many are uncomfortable with IRC or mailing lists. The idea of a website and forum was really really meant to bridge that gap
<cdrigby_Singapor> JanC: Yes, but that is a tougher nut to crack of course.
<boredandblogging> ok, lets vote
<cdrigby_Singapor> JanC: The "ubuntu clinic" idea is focused on end-users who are not IT-oriented. It is meant to be primarily educational for end-users.
<boredandblogging> seems like Singapore has good plans, but I would to see the LoCo come back in a few months
<popey> I have to say I agree with boredandblogging, I'd like to see more evidence of sustained activity
<boredandblogging> after some activity on the forums and some events
<JanC> you can try places where end-users come, e.g. I gave a presentation to a computer club with mostly elderly people in it (most evenings they just talk about how to use styles in MS Word and stuff like that)
<JanC> of course you also have to adapt your presentation to that public then  ã
<JanC> boredandblogging: +1
<juliux> boredandblogging: +1
<cdrigby_Singapor> OK - shall we return after April release?
<JanC> cdrigby_Singapor: I would say, return if you think you have enough to show, there are no deadlines
<cdrigby_Singapor> OK
<boredandblogging> cdrigby_Singapor, ziroday good luck
<ziroday> boredandblogging: thanks :)
<supervivid> thank you
<boredandblogging> ok, I had some things on the agenda
<cdrigby_Singapor> Thanks. Au revoir.
<popey> so you do
<boredandblogging> is there anything we can do to promote the global bug jam?
<popey> you could podcast about it :)
<popey> we could blog about it :)
<popey> twitter / identi.ca etc
<boredandblogging> popey: we will be interviewing Jorge Sunday
<popey> ace
<boredandblogging> think all the LoCos know about it by now, right?
<juliux> yes it comes over loco-contacts
<dantalizing> who are you interviewing?
<dantalizing> ;)
<boredandblogging> dantalizing: pffft
<boredandblogging> ok, so next
<boredandblogging> the next two items might be related
<popey> i dunno what else?
<popey> we could ask all the other linux podcasts to do it?
<popey> maybe do an audio promotion they can slot in?
<boredandblogging> popey: thats a good idea
<boredandblogging> a nice logo or banner
<boredandblogging> that people can post on their blogs
<boredandblogging> and locos can post on their sites
<popey> yeah, "I'm going to bug jam!" type banner
<boredandblogging> right
<popey> have a countdown?
<popey> like we do for releases
<boredandblogging> oh nice
<itnet7> +1
<popey> maybe you guys could make a very short video about it - which would include jorge, maybe 3 mins long
<popey> which we could all embed
<popey> separate from the podcast but obv recorded on sunday when you have him
<boredandblogging> right right, I like that
<popey> facebook too
<popey> how about a facebook group?
<juliux> facebook?
<juliux> not everybody has an account there
<popey> so?
<popey> not everyone has flash
<popey> not everyone has twitter or identi.ca
<juliux> there are you right;)
<boredandblogging> lol
<popey> media blitz :)
<boredandblogging> ok, will see what I can do about the video
<juliux> i think it is more a task for the marketing team
<JanC> more places == more viewers
<popey> yup JanC
<boredandblogging> yeah
<juliux> and if we do something we should create content every loco could use
<dantalizing> email?
 * popey is creating a facebook group now..
<boredandblogging> think the banner at a minimum
 * juliux doen't like systems where he as to create an extra account
<popey> you dont have to juliux
<popey> nobody is asking you to
<juliux> popey: to read things at facebook i have to
<popey> right
<popey> and you have to have an internet connection to get on irc
<popey> get over it :)
<juliux> so the group you reach with a facebook group is very limited
<popey> you're massively mistaken there
<juliux> i will stop and will let you do
<popey> thanks!
<dantalizing> crickets
<JanC> it's for existing Facebook-users
<boredandblogging> next topic...
<JanC> <JanC> it's for existing Facebook-users
<JanC> not to push people to facebook
<boredandblogging> we can discuss facebook later
<boredandblogging> lets move on
<boredandblogging> at UDS we had talked about getting successful LoCos to share some stories
<boredandblogging> like what they have done
<boredandblogging> so other LoCos can learn
<boredandblogging> think we said maybe doing an IRC meeting everyone couple of months
<boredandblogging> popey: about that often right?
<juliux> i think regular irc meeting would be very good
<popey> yes
<popey> getting them to come along and share
<boredandblogging> and gives other LoCos a chance to ask questions directly
<juliux> my experiences is the best shareing is if people get contacted personal
<JanC> sounds good
<popey> true
<boredandblogging> so lets try to at least have one or two before 9.04 is released?
<juliux> yes
<boredandblogging> should we focus on one LoCo per meeting or just a roundtable?
<popey> we could trial it with one?
<juliux> i like the roundtable
<juliux> and perhaps a topic per meeting
<boredandblogging> yeah, maybe try with one, if its not too messy, then a roundtable?
<juliux> yeah
<boredandblogging> anyone want to organize this?
<JanC> I think working with topics might be a good idea
<boredandblogging> we need to pick one loco and maybe just send out an email to loco-contacts?
<popey> yeah
 * popey votes the french loco
<JanC> and then find a couple of loco's to talk about what they do around it
<boredandblogging> JanC: what topic would you suggest?
<JanC> I don't know, but we could ask the locos what they want/need ?
<boredandblogging> think the first time, it would be easier if we just pick something
<boredandblogging> and then after they see how it works
<boredandblogging> let them pick
<popey> "organising a release party" would be a good one :)
<popey> (for the French)
<JanC> for example
<boredandblogging> ok...
<JanC> and afterwards other locoteams can tell how they do it, so that people see there are alternatives...
<boredandblogging> so we are agreed on release party and the French?
<juliux> yes
<JanC> if "The French" agree  ã
<boredandblogging> JanC: it will become chaos anyway :-P
<juliux> if we need a second one i am interesting to do fair work or ubucon;)
<boredandblogging> juliux: sounds good
<boredandblogging> JanC: just threaten to call huats 4K :-P
<popey> ooo yeah, I'd like to hear about that juliux
<popey> we don't do enough organising for events like that and I'd love to know what goes on to make one happen
<dantalizing> 4k is his real name now
<juliux> so we have some content for the next months;)
<boredandblogging> excellent
<boredandblogging> someone want to ask huats?
<boredandblogging> I can do it
<JanC> juliux: fair work as in open source events or as in ordinary computer fairs?
<dantalizing> lol
<juliux> JanC: fair work for opensource vents at ordinary computer fairs;)
<juliux> JanC: most time there is an opensource area at the fairs
<JanC> well, not really at the fairs we do mostly
<juliux> but we also have opensource fairs only like linuxtag
<JanC> they are fairs where they sell all sorts of new & used computers & computer parts
<boredandblogging> cool
<JanC> so we get mostly people looking for cheap computer stuff
<juliux> normaly we don't attend this selling shows
<JanC> the advantage is you get a lot of "ordinary" people
<juliux> btw we start next week ubucon-de 2009 organisation;)
<JanC> and, we offer to install Ubuntu on second hand computers they buy
 * JanC once installed Ubuntu in Turkish for a young woman who just moved from Turkey to Belgium
<JanC> nobody sold Windows in Turkish there...   :P
<boredandblogging> heh
<boredandblogging> ok, one more agenda item
<dantalizing> windows with turkish translations? or nobody spoke turkish to sell windows?
<JanC> turkish translations
<boredandblogging> LoCos requesting to use LP lists
<juliux> i personal think locos should use normal maillingliste, because there you don't need an extra account to get on the list, a mailaddress is enough
<juliux> so the entry barrier is very slow
<popey> it's good to get people on launchpad though
<itnet7> we had signed up for the beta ,and now we have 40 users in the beta and 70 in the mailing list
<popey> and signing up to launchpad is no more difficult than signing up for mailman
<itnet7> in order to get people involved in bug triaging the need and LP account anyways
<popey> email address/password is all you need
<itnet7> should read: they need an LP
<dantalizing> and who doesnt love launchpad?
<boredandblogging> the decision the CC made a while ago and reaffirmed by mdke recently was that main list should be on mailman
<boredandblogging> secondary lists (like for planning or admin) can be on LP
<boredandblogging> apparently LP still doesn't have some features (which, I don't know)
<popey> the good thing about launchpad is someone can sign up for a group (loco) and be on the mailing list with one extra button press
<popey> archive is appalling boredandblogging
<popey> nothing like the archiving that mailman uses
<popey> very flat and ugly
<boredandblogging> ahh, ok
<popey> i am not sure about spam management and other settings either
<JanC> mailman doesn't do archiving AFAIK  ã
<JanC> but there are several tools that with mailman
<popey> I suspect you know what I'm talking about though
<popey> the default one used by lists.ubuntu.com
<JanC> I think the intention is to move everything to launchpad once launchpad is ready for it?
<dantalizing> launchpad-users was recently moved to launchpad
<JanC> in that case we should probably do what the CC decided?
<juliux> i think we should hand over that to the cc back
<popey> yeah
<popey> +1
<juliux> the have allready made an decision about that so they should change the decision if needed;)
<boredandblogging> JanC: yeah, long term it will moved to LP
<JanC> juliux: +1
<boredandblogging> awesome
<boredandblogging> anything else to discuss?
<dantalizing> so is someone going to bring this up wiht cc?
<boredandblogging> we need to start doing reviews again
<dantalizing> is there support in this council for lp lists?
<boredandblogging> dantalizing: if you want the policy changed, yeah probably
<boredandblogging> i didn't know about the archiving issue, thats a big deal for me
<boredandblogging> JanC, juliux at UDS we talked about joining the mailing lists of the LoCos that didn't respond to the review emails
<boredandblogging> and emailing the lists directly
<JanC> BTW: how is moderation infrastructure for launchpad lists?
<JanC> (I haven't used them)
<popey> dunno, i am not a moderator of any lp lists i dont think
<JanC> boredandblogging: right
<popey> maybe one, but it gets zero traffic
<JanC> ã
<juliux> boredandblogging: sounds good
<boredandblogging> how long do we give them?
<JanC> we had an annoying person on the ubuntu-be list that I'm the admin of, so I think it's important
<juliux> boredandblogging: i think if send them twice a mail we should join there lis
<juliux> t
<boredandblogging> juliux: joing their list after sending the contact 2 emails?
<JanC> juliux: if we can join it...
<JanC> are all locoteam-lists free to join or are some of them moderated?
<juliux> boredandblogging: yes
<JanC> (and should we require lists to be free to join?)
<juliux> boredandblogging: how often are you mailing them? every month?
<boredandblogging> juliux: I've never emailed any contact more than once
<juliux> ok
<boredandblogging> (but I have never gotten any bounces)
<popey> guys - I need to go - I have to drive my mum home :)
<boredandblogging> popey: later
<nizarus> thx popey :)
<popey> :)
<boredandblogging> ok, so I send them one more email
<juliux> boredandblogging: good
<boredandblogging> the thing is that I don't ask for a response
<boredandblogging> I should probably say they should respond acknowledging the email
<juliux> yeah
<boredandblogging> if they don't respond within two or 3 weeks
<boredandblogging> join their mailing list
<boredandblogging> and then give them how long?
<juliux> i think we can resend them a mail after four week
<juliux> s
<boredandblogging> resend which one?
<boredandblogging> resent to the mailig list?
<JanC> well, I'd say they should really respond within 1 or 2 weeks after we mail their list?
<JanC> even if it's not the official contact
<itnet7> Thanks for discussing our topic earlier guys, Gotta Run! ttyl
<boredandblogging> I agree
<boredandblogging> if it takes more than 2 weeks
<JanC> if there is nobody reading the list, then there is no locoteam
<boredandblogging> right
<boredandblogging> ok, so email the contact a 2nd time, give them 2 weeks, if no response, email list, if no response in 2 weeks, we can consider the LoCo unapproved
<boredandblogging> and if they respond at any point, give them one month?
<juliux> yeah
<boredandblogging> for their approval application
<boredandblogging> ok
<juliux> but two weeks could be a normal holidy
<juliux> holiday
<boredandblogging> then I say 3 weeks for the contact, 1 week for the mailing list
<JanC> juliux: for a loco-contact, yes
<JanC> but 2 mails = 2 x 2 weeks
<juliux> oh yes
<juliux> so i am fine with your way boredandblogging
<boredandblogging> ok, cool
<JanC> and a mailing list has enough people so that normally not everybody is on holidays I suppose  ã
<boredandblogging> JanC: hopefully
<boredandblogging> ok, I'll update the wiki pag
<boredandblogging> e
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<boredandblogging> and then go back through the LoCos who never responded
<boredandblogging> thats all I have
<juliux> what about next meeting?
<juliux> and have contacted some locos for reapproval for the next meeting?
<boredandblogging> ummm, no
<boredandblogging> thats my fault
<boredandblogging> I'll try to do it sometime next week
<juliux> thanks a lot
<boredandblogging> thanks juliux JanC
<juliux> i will go to bed now
<juliux> cu the next days
<boredandblogging> juliux: nite
<JanC> slaapwel juliux
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-16
<W8TVI> Keybuk: hey
* You're now known as ubuntulog
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-18
<j1mc> hey charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> I made it, j1mc
<j1mc> looks like it's just you and I.
<charlie-tca> I we holler loud, maybe NCommander will join us?
<j1mc> would you like to just briefly go over testing and documentation?
<j1mc> sure
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> Testing alpha3 was a nightmare
<j1mc> why's that?
<NCommander> *poof*
<j1mc> hi NCommander
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<charlie-tca> We are left with a desktop cd from 8 versions back
<NCommander> ENOBOT :-/
<charlie-tca> compared to ubuntu
<j1mc> charlie-tca: why's that?
<NCommander> wait, what?
<charlie-tca> They built ours on 01-14 and never rebuilt it
<charlie-tca> ubuntu was rebuilt 8 times
<charlie-tca> There is a partitioning bug we still have in it
<j1mc> why was ours not rebuilt?
<NCommander> No one asked
<charlie-tca> the decision was made because it took too long
<j1mc> i get daily email updates, and there was no note of any problem found
<j1mc> hi vinnl
<vinnl> Hey j1mc
<j1mc> we're just discussing testin
<j1mc> g
<NCommander> we're a universe flavor, we're fairly low on the stuff to be done list :-/
<vinnl> Started yet? ;-)
<charlie-tca> Myself and davmor2 reported the bug
<vinnl> OK
<charlie-tca> agreed, NCommander
<j1mc> what can be done to resolve the problem?
<NCommander> Get more people on the CD building team :-)
<charlie-tca> At least the alternate cd is good. The bug on desktop is easy to workaround, when you find it
<NCommander> We're simply not having luck with CDs this cycle
<charlie-tca> I know!
<NCommander> At least we get a USABLE CD
<NCommander> hey cody-somerville
<j1mc> we're discussing desktop-cd issues with the alpha-3 release
<j1mc> < charlie-tca> We are left with a desktop cd from 8 versions back
<charlie-tca> I have to take time real soon to go through the bugs on jaunty. We don't seem to be getting them past new very often
<NCommander> We just need to make sure the next daily is ok
<charlie-tca> Maybe the wording should be rebuilds back
<charlie-tca> But the bugs are getting fixed! :-)
<NCommander> I don't usually start to panic until the betas about our CDs
<NCommander> alpha 4 probably going to be fairly broken since I doubt we'll finish the Xfce 4.6 transition by then (yay for the evil NEW queue)
<charlie-tca> And the testing is okay, too, until the last alpha, anyway.
 * NCommander notes that once 4.6 is fully updated, your work going to increase
<NCommander> We're the first distro moving to 4.6.
<charlie-tca> Aah, good. We are almost bored anyway...
<charlie-tca> How soon do we get it?
<NCommander> Anyone in the mood for a 4.6 progress report?
<NCommander> Depends how long things take to go through the NEW queue
<charlie-tca> yes, a report would be great!
<NCommander> Ok
<j1mc> anyone else part of a loco team?  ubuntu-chicago is participating in the global bug jam.  we could focus on testing and triaging xubuntu installs with 4.6 betas.
<NCommander> j1mc, I'm a member of NY loco
<NCommander> We have 4.4.3 in jaunty, and intrepid-proposed has it too
<j1mc> the global bug jam is the week of 2/20.
<j1mc> weekend of 2/20
<charlie-tca> No loco teams in Idaho!
<NCommander> 4.4.3 will be kicked into updates as soon as a corner an archive admin
<NCommander> I've started uploading 4.6 packages to universe
<j1mc> will 4.6 hit the jaunty repos by february?
<NCommander> I'm hoping by the end of the month
<j1mc> 4.5.whatever?
<NCommander> yeah
<NCommander> 4.5.93 already saw some uploads
<NCommander> libxfce4util and gtk-engine-xfce got uploaded
<NCommander> (thank you Xfce team for making sure your **** doesn't break out releases)
<NCommander> xfconf and libxfce4menu are stuck in the NEW queue
<NCommander> until those go through, I can't upload any other 4.6 packages
<j1mc> NCommander: ok - about how long will it be before they are out of the NEW queue?
<NCommander> A week
<NCommander> maybe less if I can encourage an archive admin to look them over
<mr_pouit> We'll need to rm *mcs* bits btw
<NCommander> Once xfconf goes through, I can upload libxfce4gui which will be the basis for the rest of the 4.6 apps
<mr_pouit> (hi there)
<NCommander> mr_pouit, that won't happen for awhile
<j1mc> :)  ok.  i guess it would just be ideal if we could have a full 4.5.X available in jaunty by the global bug jam weekend.
<NCommander> We still need to NBS all the 4.4 packages
<NCommander> Once the 4.6 packages go, we need to do seed changes (hello broken CDs), and update xubuntu-default-settings
<NCommander> There is a 4.4 -> 4.6 migration script, so it shouldn't be too difficult, just tedious.
<mr_pouit> dependencies should be automatically pushed, so it shouldn't be so painful
<NCommander> Right
<NCommander> Then we need to NBS out mcs
<NCommander> and make sure we haven't hosed our upgrade path
<NCommander> (we're dealing with a lot of packages moving around, so upgrade testing 4.4 -> 4.6 will be a top priority
<mr_pouit> +1
<NCommander> I also want to see if we get feature parity with GNOME
<NCommander> We seem to only get their new features one release later
<NCommander> (I should say ubuntu-desktop vs. GNOME)
<NCommander> Such as the logout menu
<charlie-tca> They have a new one in testing
<NCommander> Either we should port that to Xfce's API's, or simply shove xfapplet into our default settings
<vinnl> Something problematic when it comes to that is that some GNOME applications which we *can* use do not appear because the .desktop files show OnlyShowIn=GNOME
<vinnl> I'll try to upgrade not too late and then keep an eye on that
<NCommander> vinnl, if you poke me, I can update those packages if need be, or poke the updater :-)
<NCommander> Ok
<NCommander> More news
<vinnl> I've reported some on Launchpad
<mr_pouit> Speaking of the logout menu, it would be better if we don't carry a delta that adds strings...
<NCommander> As some of us are aware, Ubuntu (and thus Xubuntu) has an ARM port
<NCommander> mr_pouit, well, I'd like to make xfce4-session vanish, using the logout menu to replace it
<NCommander> I think we need to look strongly at making sure ARM is a supported Xubuntu architecture (I also want to see PowerPC at least return to semi-supported; aka, linked off the front page)
<NCommander> I've personally tested Xubuntu on ARM, its pretty sexy
<mr_pouit> We should try to make a non-buggued release first amha
 * NCommander uses the stick on mr_pouit 
<mr_pouit> :p
<NCommander> Supporting ARM is relatively easy, everything already works there
<JPohlmann> Hey guys. Sorry for being late. I totally forgot about time when playing guitar.
<NCommander> We just need to make sure the website makes it clear that support exists
<NCommander> JPohlmann, that's what happens when your on a stairway to heaven :-)
 * NCommander runs from the bad pun
<JPohlmann> Hehe
<NCommander> JPohlmann, how's upstreams attitude with w.r.t. to supporting small screen devices?
<NCommander> i.e., are we on our own, or does upstream want it :-)?
<mr_pouit> cody-somerville: what were you planning for sion? (included in the seeds or not?)
<JPohlmann> NCommander: We're positive about it.
<NCommander> awesome
<NCommander> cody-somerville, your an archive admin, aren't you, can't you magic the 4.6 packages through ;-)?
<JPohlmann> It's clearly not our main target and most of our applications are not really designed to take up as little space as possible, but why should we be against running Xfce on small screens?
<mr_pouit> NCommander: I don't think he's an archive admin ;p
<j1mc> mr_pouit: i had to look up "amha."  all i could find was American Miniature Horses Association, until I found "Ã Mon Humble Avis" (in my humble opinion).  :)
<mr_pouit> j1mc: oops, sorry, imho ;)
<NCommander> JPohlmann, well, its likely going to happen, since netbooks are all the rage, having a light weight yet full featured DE is going to be a huge win
<j1mc> np  :)
<NCommander> So its on our radar to improve netbook support for Xfce.
<vinnl> NCommander, it's already happening a lot on Neo Freerunner devices (from OpenMoko)
<vinnl> That's even smaller
<JPohlmann> NCommander: I'd say netbooks are within our main target range.
<JPohlmann> NCommander: I'm all for it.
<NCommander> People have Xfce running on the freerunner?
<NCommander> O_O!, I need a freerunner now
<JPohlmann> Dunno. But we have at least two Xfce developers with netbooks ;)
<vinnl> NCommander, yep, Debian runs on it and Xfce is the platform of choice :)
<NCommander> vinnl, its a pity Ubuntu ARM requirements are too high for the Freerunner :-/
<NCommander> Did we have an agenda for this meeting, or is this one of our usual adhoc meetings?
<vinnl> I didn't really see anything on the wiki
<vinnl> Except for the Brainstorm ideas that might be discussed ;-)
<mr_pouit> I wanted to know what cody was planning (for the seeds), but he doesn't seem to be here.
<NCommander> mr_pouit, well, he joined, but as I'm learning, just because Cody's IRC client may be somewhere doesn't mean he's actually here
<mr_pouit> ;]
 * charlie-tca nods
<NCommander> Ok, more news
<NCommander> We're moving to Bazaar packaging
<NCommander> This has the added bonus of making syncing with Debian Xfce trival
<j1mc> \o/
<NCommander> (bzr merge svn://pkg-xfce.d.o/*path to branch*)
<NCommander> And it pulls everything thats changed, even changelog entries, so no more manually mangling packages
<NCommander> I'd like to setup AutoPPA (cody suggested this to me), so we can make sure our nightly branches are always hapy
<NCommander> *happy
<NCommander> so every night we can have a batch of steaming hot PPA packages to test the lastest changes (and our best friend w.r.t. to testing stuff)
<j1mc> sounds excellent, NCommander
<charlie-tca> great!
<NCommander> We also had some discussions at UDS about intergrating autoPPA with Xfce upstream so we'd have a set of packages that just represented the base Xfce system
<NCommander> I dunno where those discussions went, cody was talking about it
<NCommander> JPohlmann, BTW, care to tell us about the new sexiness of 4.6 :-)?
<JPohlmann> NCommander: Anything specific you wanna know?
<NCommander> just give us a general overview
 * NCommander has run 4.6, but I'm unsure of anyone else)
<JPohlmann> Hard to summarize in one sentence. 4.6 will bring a lot of changes to the Xfce platform but also a number of new features visible to the user.
<NCommander> Well, I felt it was faster, and fairly stable, even for an alpha
<JPohlmann> As for the platform: the old MCS system has been replaced with a D-Bus based settings daemon called Xfconf. We've rewritten most of the settings dialogs to use it. Another thing is that there is now a new menu library which aims to be XDG compliant.
<JPohlmann> xfce4-session has been improved a lot.
<JPohlmann> It now starts applications in parallel (which speeds things up) and now uses D-Bus as well to talk to session clients. There's now a session editor as well.
<NCommander> Very sexy
 * vinnl drools
<JPohlmann> Other than that, there is both a graphical and a console tool for accessing/modifying the settings: xfce4-settings-editor (GUI) and xfconf-query (console).
<JPohlmann> Two applications were rewritten from scratch: xfce4-mixer (now based on GStreamer 0.10) and xfce4-appfinder (now uses ThunarVFS to reload contents when applications are installed/removed).
<JPohlmann> There are more changes of course, but these are probably the most important ones.
<j1mc> so - so far we've discussed testing and xfce 4.6 features.  anything else on those topics?
<NCommander> nothing I can think of offhand
<j1mc> oh, and we discussed using bzr more extensively, too.
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> care for an update on documentation?
<j1mc> i've been working on the xubuntu docs, but xfce docs may not be included in the 4.6 release.
<j1mc> likely 4.6.1
<j1mc> or, they would be included, but not significantly updated
 * NCommander makes an off the cuff remark on the state of our intrepid documentation
<j1mc> "off the cuff"?
<NCommander> side comment
<NCommander> Although it may be improved by now
<j1mc> "our" meaning xubuntu, or xfce?
<NCommander> j1mc, er, you do know about what happened with the Xubuntu 8.10 docs, right?
<j1mc> that they weren't updated
<NCommander> It was more something like this
<NCommander> A few days before release:
<NCommander> cody: Why are our docs still saying 8.04
<NCommander> Me: oh ****
<NCommander> Both: *panic, bump the version number*
<NCommander> Lets NOT have a repeat of this
<j1mc> NCommander: i'm on top of it
 * NCommander hugs j1mc 
<NCommander> :-)
<NCommander> I'm still amazed we haven't gotten any bugs on it AFAIK
<j1mc> yeah, very few
<NCommander> Documentation: We write it, the users don't read it :-P
 * charlie-tca thinks NCommander worries too much...
<j1mc> :)
<NCommander> charlie-tca, years and years of exposure to end users have drained away my hopes and dreams.
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that too
<j1mc> anything else for discussion today?
<j1mc> any word from knome on artwork?
<charlie-tca> I am trying to put together something for telling what hardware testers have, but the last two I asked dropped out of testign
<vinnl> Does the Print Screen-key work by default in Xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> no, vinnl
<charlie-tca> And yes, we have a bug-report on it, too
<vinnl> Will xfce4-screenshooter be included for Jaunty?
<charlie-tca> Xfce devel said it is up to us to try to make print-screen key work with screenshooter
<j1mc> all, i need to run.  i'll keep my session running here, though, and will post minutes by tomorrow at the latest
<charlie-tca> se you later, j1mc
<vinnl> Bye j1mc
<vinnl> OK then
<charlie-tca> NCommander: ^^
<NCommander> cya
<j1mc>  /quit
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-18
<Dishtroyer> Can anyone tell me how to register my nick?
<Hobbsee> !register
<ubottu> Information about registering your nickname: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration - Type Â« /nick <nickname> Â» to select your nickname. Registration help available in #freenode
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-19
<dholbach> popey, pleia2, technoviking, nixternal: around?
<popey> yup
<dholbach> mako is not on freenode, or he is somebody else or something and sabdfl can't make it, mdke probably neither
<dholbach> I just had a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda and it seems that every topic is a 21 UTC topic
<dholbach> I realise that mdke's and my item has been on it for a very long time, so I'll try to take if off of there (as I normally can't make the 21 UTC times) and try to figure out something via email
<popey> ok
<dholbach> Emmet's item depends on the DMB election, so it'll need to wait a bit until the DMB election was closed
<popey> fastest meeting ever
<dholbach> do you have anything that needs to be discussed?
<dholbach> or does anybody else have anything?
<popey> i dont
<dholbach> let's wait a few ticks then to see if anybody else does :)
<dholbach> alrightie... I'll write something quick up for the team report then
<czajkowski> does this meeting time ever work ?
<dholbach> czajkowski: usually it does :)
<czajkowski> hmm ok
<dholbach> it's just that we didn't have much to discuss this time :)
<persia> Um, my item was covered in the last meeting, and passed by a majority.  Sorry to not remove it from the agenda for this time.
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * JamieBen1ett waves
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100119
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100119
 * ogra coughs
 * GrueMaster opens a weary eye.
<NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
 * cooloney1 waves
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item review
<asac> hi
<NCommander> [topic] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o).
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o).
<persia> It's documented somewhere.  It's just not very complete.
<asac> ok
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport
<NCommander> persia, do we need a c/o on this one?
<cooloney1> yeah, i updated some on it
<persia> Needs more input from the people wo haven't finished (JamieBennet, cooloney)
 * JamieBennett got sidetracked this week
<persia> NCommander: Better would be to have specific action for JamieBennet on bootspeed (or reassign)
<JamieBennett> leave it with me
<asac> i will ping dtchen again
<NCommander> [action] JamieBennett to complete imx51 backportng documentation on bootspeed.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  JamieBennett to complete imx51 backportng documentation on bootspeed.
<NCommander> [topic] [topic] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
<MootBot> New Topic:  [topic] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
<persia> cooloney1: Are there really only two patches of interest in kernel/ubuntu?
<asac> yes, we started to go through the list
<cooloney1> persia: actually, i am not sure about the requirement.
<asac> added more variables for prioritization (e.g. number of rdepends)
<asac> and section
<asac> so thats done
<asac> its work in progress
<asac> we will assign bugs for the important ones etc.
<cooloney1> just got that requests from ogra before, than looked at those feature and backported and built the kernel
<NCommander> asac, do we need any action items for actually opening the bugs?
<ogra> cooloney1, requirement is that most or all HW i plug into my laptop should work the same way on my babbage
<asac> no
<asac> thats part of the thumb2 spec imo
<asac> already covered
<NCommander> [topic] dmart to investigate test procedures at ATM which may work on dove
<MootBot> New Topic:  dmart to investigate test procedures at ATM which may work on dove
<ogra> cooloney1, and that features we develop in-house should not be broken due to linux-imx being behind
<asac> dmart: did you find anything=
<asac> ?
<asac> is that actually still relevant?
<dmart> Unfortunately, I didn't come up with much useful.  Most of our tests are hardware-level, and can't be used on real silicon.
<asac> yeah
<dmart> Running things like the GCC bootstrap / testsuite seems a good idea if not done already
<dmart> Was there any progress on that?
<NCommander> dmart, negative, board is too unstable to even get that far
<asac> who had that item?
<asac> me?
<cooloney1> ogra: heh, that needs go through all the .32 kernel patches, a hugh task
<asac> dmart: or doko ?
<NCommander> [topic] ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
<persia> cooloney1: Yep.
<MootBot> New Topic:  ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
<ogra> cooloney1, nah, not *all* ... focus should be on in-hoouse development we do (apparmor, aufs ... and kernel/ubuntu )
<ericm> seems I joined the right moment
<asac> hi ericm
<GrueMaster> Not much I could do, as once the system locks, nothing is logged.
<NCommander> ericm, indeed :-)
<NCommander> So, based on conversations with Marvell, we have an actual silicon bug, not a kernel bug.
<dmart> asac: test / boostrap wasn't a formal action.  I can't do it because I don't have the board though ;)
<ericm> well, here are some updates
<cooloney1> ogra: ok, got you, will go through all our Ubuntu lucid .32 master kernel patches
<asac> dmart: ok lets talk afterwards so i understand what this involves
<dmart> OK
<ericm> I was in Marvell Shanghai office and helped them test a little bit on their X0 board
<dmart> For my understanding, is this purely a kernel issue, or userspace? (or both?)
<ericm> so far so good, no system freeze issue (once ever been observed though not sure if it's the same symptom as in Y1)
<asac> ericm: could you reproduce the issue in front of them with YX?
<asac> Y1
<ericm> yet gnome-panel still respawns and ubiquity failed when partitioning
<ogra> or Y0
<ericm> asac, yes they know the issues
<ogra> ericm, thats a general bug (ubiquity)
<NCommander> ericm, the ubiquity fails with partitioning is a code bug, not a thumb2 bug :-)
<ericm> ogra, well I guess this doesn't happen on imx51?
<ogra> it does apparently
<dmart> It does :(
<asac> ericm: ok. what about the emulation front. do they know which instructions trigger this?
<ogra> i havent seen it, but i didnt test with manual partitioning
<ericm> but gnome-panel also respawns again and again on imx51?
<asac> no
<ogra> afaik it even happened on x86
<asac> for me it feels related
<ogra> the panel issue seems related, yes
<ogra> partitioning doesnt
<asac> right
<ericm> asac, what you mean by emulation front and instructions trigger this?
<NCommander> [action] eric and NCommander to investigate what causes the gnome-panel crash/restart cycle
<MootBot> ACTION received:  eric and NCommander to investigate what causes the gnome-panel crash/restart cycle
<asac> ericm: i thought we think that some thumb2 instruction triggers this
<asac> do we know which one
<asac> ?
<ericm> asac, ah yes - it's VLDR
<ericm> and only when VLDR in thumb2 mode
<ericm> it's actually not a thumb2 instruction, but a VFP register load instruction
<dmart> Is there any bug report or other info I could look at?
<ericm> but if that instruction happens in thumb2 mode, incorrect alignment fault happens
<NCommander> ericm, can't we use the kernel to trap and rewrite the thumb2 instruction so we shift back to ARM mode during the VFP register load?
<ericm> NCommander, they already provided the workaround and was merged in karmic, otherwise will be overwhelmed in alignment faults error messages
<asac> so we can pull that workaround?
<ericm> NCommander, and the workaround works almost same as you mentioned
<NCommander> ericm, if the workaround is in karmic, then why do we still see such broken behavior? We merged previous thumb2 patches which helped
<dmart> Might this be connected with the other instability?
<asac> ericm: ?
<asac> probably
<asac> (instability)
<ericm> I'll say the patch doesn't work all the time
<asac> ericm: my question is: qhy isnt that workaround in karmic
<ogra> you mean lucid
<ericm> asac, it's already in karmic-proposed
<asac> yeah
<asac> sorry
<asac> lucid
<ericm> it's there
<ogra> but its not sufficient apparently
<ericm> ogra, exactly
<NCommander> ogra, likely another instruction or two has issues
<ogra> right
<asac> thats what you say NCommander  .... ericm didnt say that
<asac> he said tits just that instruction
<ericm> NCommander, either another instruction or the workaround doesn't solve the issue in some corner cases
<ericm> yet I guess the latter is more likely
<asac> ok. how serios is this worked on at marvell side?
<ericm> since I don't see system freezing on X0 (once - but not confirmed it's related to this)
<asac> do we need to elevate priority on their side?
<asac> would that help?
<NCommander> ericm, try and build GCC and other large packages as a stability test on X0
<ericm> asac, they are already aware of the issues - and provide some suggestions as could be seen from the mails I get you CC'ed
<ericm> but nothing really made progress
<asac> ok. just want to understand if we need to ensure that this gets top priority for them.
<asac> but lets talk after meeting
<ericm> by now, I guess we need to push Marvell to provide some more X0 boards to us
<NCommander> [action] asac, ericm, and NCommander to talk about Thumb2 issues after the meeting and report back
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac, ericm, and NCommander to talk about Thumb2 issues after the meeting and report back
<asac> ericm: our primary objective would be to get it worked around in X1
<asac> Y1
<asac> or 0
<ericm> asac, I agree we need to make sure they know this as top priority
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to care for seed changes to get oo.o off the image
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to care for seed changes to get oo.o off the image
<asac> ericm: right
<ogra> NCommander, wasnt needed
<asac> that turned out to be a non-issue
<NCommander> cool
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<asac> oh
<asac> wait
<asac> that url is wrong now
<asac> [LINK] http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<asac> thats the new one
<asac> the trend line will be set to 145
<NCommander> asac, thanks
 * asac updates
<asac> wiki
<ogra> shriek
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<asac> NCommander: sop ;)
<asac> stop
<asac> so
<cooloney1> i got a new fsl bsp from ogra
<asac> the work items seems quiet a lot
<cooloney1> that introduces 30+ kernel patches.
<asac> i would reall like to see everyone going through it and checking the count of workitems and see if there are things that are reall off for alpha-3
 * ogra hands asac two y's
<asac> NCommander: can you please wait before moving on in general?
<NCommander> asac, sorry
<asac> you never ask if a topic was done
<asac> doesnt matter now ;)
<cooloney1> asac: yeah, i stopped, heh
<asac> so move on. just include that prominently in the meeting notes
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<ogra> asac, what are canonical-mobile workitems ?
<asac> ogra: thats a pool of items anyone can claim ;)
<asac> team specs ;)
<asac> you can claim items by adding [ogra] before them
<ogra> given the amount of personal items we already all have i think its unlikely anyone would do that
<asac> not sure that applies for everyone
<ogra> yeah, probably not
<JamieBennett> I suppose if no-one claims them asac can distribute them ;)
<NCommander> heh
<asac> yeah
<ogra> yes, but we should set a deadline for that
<asac> anyway. you can also pick such items if you are blocked or something
<ogra> else they will likely just be lost
<ogra> and make us look bad
<asac> the deadline is the milestone
<NCommander> so are we done with the burndown charts?
<asac> the items there will not make us look bad if all other items are done :)
 * ogra is
<asac> NCommander: why? that url has a burndown too
<asac> http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<ogra> well, they add to the overall statistic :)
<asac> http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
<NCommander> asac, I know.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
<asac> ok
<asac> yes, that topic is over i hope
<NCommander> ericm, cooloney1 anything else you want to bring up on the topic of the ARM kernels?
<asac> if anyone has something we can move that to AOB
<cooloney1> NCommander: yeah
<cooloney1> continue my words.
<asac> ok lets focus on kernel ;)
<ericm> asac, nothing from my side
<cooloney1> i already tested the Alpha2 kernel + 30+ new kernel patch
<cooloney1> it works fine.
<ogra> the existing patches didnt change in the new BSP ?
<cooloney1> and for the NEON issue, I provided 2 solution kernels
<asac> what do such tests involve? are you running a full image?
<cooloney1> asac: i just build the kernel and replace it on my board
<cooloney1> installed the kernel on my board
<ogra> the package i guess ?
<asac> ok
<cooloney1> and will post the package to you guys to test
<asac> curious about the NEON things ;)
<ogra> yeah
<asac> what approaches?
<cooloney1> yeah, NEON things, i provided 2 packages
<cooloney1> 1 disable NEON defaultly
<cooloney1> 2 a kernel side dynamic checking
<cooloney1> i think dmart tested all of them on bb2.5
<dmart> cooloney1, is that the patch you worked on last week?  I tested on babbage 2.0, bug I think ogra or someone had a problem on 2.5?
<ogra> wehat made me curious is the different revisions we see in /proc/cpuinfo
<cooloney1> but as we discussed before, method 2 might not be very safe for all the solution
<ogra> dmart, i didnt test that kernel yet
<ogra> must be someone else
<ogra> (likely plars)
<dmart> hmmm
<cooloney1> yeah, JamieBennett tested that ,
<ogra> ah
<asac> cooloney1: what does t method 2 base the decision to enable thumb on?
<dmart> ogra, I think you're right
<cooloney1> but from JamieBennett's cpuinfo, i was confused
<JamieBennett> yes but revision numbers seem to be different from expected
<ogra> yes, thats what i meant above
<cooloney1> the cpuinfo of his JamieBennett's BB3 is the same as my BB2.5
<ogra> and mine seems totally different from all of them
<ogra> (i noted mine in the bug)
<cooloney1> ogra: yeah, i have no idea about that
<dmart> cooloney1, ugh :P
<dmart> That's a problem...
<ogra> cant the kernel find out about that on a different (lower) level ?
<cooloney1> ogra: yeah i was told bb3 should be 51130
<dmart> Look at the implementation of the BSP's "get revision" function?
 * ericm wonders what is 51130 ...
<cooloney1> ericm: the revision of the chip
<cooloney1> ericm: sorry, the board,
<asac> so we probably cannot detect reliably if NEON is stable enough?
<ogra> looking at the different outputs it seems the last two numbers are what counts
<dmart> Maybe not... I have a conf call with David Mandala later today about what the high-level strategy should be for CONFIG_NEON in general
<ogra> but that still doesnt explain why JamieBennett's ends in 20
<cooloney1> dmart: yeah, agree. need to discuss that
<cooloney1> asac and ogra, what's you guys suggestion?
<cooloney1> method 1 disable NEON for all
<ogra> well, if there is another way to determine the revision, we should go for that one
<cooloney1> or method 2 dynamic check that
<ogra> if not, drop NEON for now if possible
<ogra> cpuinfo surely doesnt seem reliable enough
<asac> dynamic check if we can do it reliably
<asac> otherwise NO
<ogra> ++
<cooloney1> ogra and asac, understand.
<cooloney1> agree.
<JamieBennett> I can double check everything after the meeting with cooloney1
<NCommander> Is that everything on the imx51 kernel to talk about here?
<cooloney1> please add me an action about 'ping fsl for more reliable chip rev checking method'
<cooloney1> one more thing is i am working on suspend/resume
<cooloney1> and pinged fsl about suspend, they did not reply yet
<asac> NCommander: action please.
<NCommander> [action] cooloney1 to ping fsl for more reliable chip rev checking method
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cooloney1 to ping fsl for more reliable chip rev checking method
<ogra> for me in former tests suspend worked
<NCommander> [action] cooloney1 to ping fsl about suspend
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cooloney1 to ping fsl about suspend
<cooloney1> is that possible davidm to help that.
<NCommander> ogra, what action do you need?
<ogra> cooloney1, we can bring it up in the weekly call
<ogra> NCommander, none
<cooloney1> NCommander: sorry, i ping fsl about suspend before. heh
<NCommander> May I move on?
<cooloney1> ogra: thanks a lot
<cooloney1> yeah,
<asac> yes. thanks ericm and cooloney1
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<ogra> cooloney1, my issue was that i couldnt find a methid to wake it up
<cooloney1> not problem asac
<cooloney1> ogra: ok, your board is different with magic rev? ;))
<ogra> well, its a 2.5 :)
<NCommander> dyfet, JamieBennett, ping?
<ogra> anyway, thats details we can discuss out of meeting
<JamieBennett> I have nothing to report on package issues
<JamieBennett> although I see the FTBFS list has some important packages failing
<NCommander> JamieBennett, indeed, we'll get there in a moment :_)
<JamieBennett> Haven't looked into them though
<NCommander> JamieBennett, can I move on?
<JamieBennett> yes from me
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<NCommander> as JamieBennett said, we do have a few FTBFS'es that need to be resolved (evolution being the big one my list this morning)
<ogra> looks like a give back to me
<NCommander> Over all, there is a general trend of improvement on this, so we're goingthe right way
<NCommander> ogra, cool (I hadn't looked at the log yet)
<ogra> i havent looked either
<ogra> but evo, ampathy and evo-couchdb are ususally give back candidates
<asac> NCommander: can you help dyfet a bit on his ftbfs'es?
<NCommander> asac, sure
<asac> i would hope that you could work together in a pair-programming approahc
<ogra> they rely on arch all packages
<NCommander> asac, pair-programming?
<asac> ... usually you get same or better throughput than doing alone
<dyfet> I am waiting on one ftbfs to be updated in debian, but I will coordinate this week on ftbfs with NCommander to get high priority ones done
<asac> NCommander: yes, try to work with him on a shared pool of tasks. taking about the steps, ideas etc.
<NCommander> asac, ah
<persia> plymouth just needs a rebuild, pending a fix for libdrm (in sponsors queue)
<NCommander> dyfet, mind if I move on, or do you have other things to add?
<dyfet> nope
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<persia> I'm having issues finding the logs that I don't get in mail, so I'm not entirely sure about current state of kubuntu or xubuntu.
<ogra> hmm, se didnt get images since 13th
<persia> Ubuntu livefs needs evolution help.
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/lucid/ubuntu-imx51/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/lucid/ubuntu-imx51/
<ogra> i'll check clementine ... guess she's unhappy again
<persia> ogra: I was looking there, but no recent updates that I saw (but I have newer logs in email)
<ericm> regarding the image status - found package xorg not properly named in pool/main/x/xorg/ in alternate image (looks like a DOS name error to me)
<ogra> well, if logs dont show up there its very likely that clementine hangs
 * NCommander grumbles
<persia> ogra: It's not clementine: the processes are running.  Check how the logs are published, perhaps?
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to investigate ericm's xorg naming bug.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to investigate ericm's xorg naming bug.
<ogra> ericm, hmm, i thought NCommander fixed that
<NCommander> ogra, I did. xorg might have broke it again :-/
 * persia is getting livefs build failure notifications
<ogra> persia, i'll look on clementine dircetly fiurst
<persia> OK.
<NCommander> persia, ogra ok to proceed?
<persia> Yes.
<asac> so is that an mtools bug again=?
<persia> asac: No.
<ogra> NCommander, yup
<NCommander> [topic] Ubuntu Liquid
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Liquid
<ogra> asac, looks like to me
<persia> rbelem and I worked on packaging some of the outstanding interface stuff on Saturday and Sunday.
<asac> great.
<persia> Unfortuantely we both fell simultaneously and unrelatedly ill, and didn't get everything compelted.
<persia> We're hoping to push the rest of the missing packages this week.
<asac> how many packages are needed?
<asac> just rough estimate
<ian_brasil_> plasma-mobile, ubuntu liquid metapackage and liquid default settings to start
<persia> I can't find the list right now.
<asac> ian_brasil_: thanks.
<asac> so anyone feels that this is at risk?
<NCommander> persia, anything else, or can I go onto AOB?
<persia> It's a couple plasma widgets + kdm-mobile and kwin-mobile (as we can't integrate the stuff upstream for lucid)
<asac> or needs a push?
<persia> Oh right, and -default-settings and -meta :)
<asac> persia: Riddell offered to helkp on the plasma bits
<asac> afaik
<asac> so tap him to get the packaging going :)
<persia> rbelem and I get back in touch about an hour back, and feel we can make good progress this week.  We might ask for help to get REVU advocations for some of the new stuff.
<asac> yes.
<ogra> persia, FYI, seems the logs are missing due to rookery reorganization
<persia> asac: Riddell has been helping a lot :)
<asac> ok cool.
<persia> ogra: That makes sense.  Let's get that sorted :)
<ogra> yep
<asac> persia: ping me and ogra for revu review
<persia> NCommander: I'm done, unless ian_brasil_ has something else (rbelem couldn't make it today)
<asac> and NCommander ... i guess
<NCommander> ian_brasil_, can I go ahead?
<ian_brasil_> yes..persia if you can help with kwin-mobile that would be great
<asac> yes
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<asac> did we skip QA status?
<plars_> yep
<persia> ian_brasil_: We're planning that for tonight, if we can.
<asac> ok
<asac> intentionally?
<asac> plars_: NCommander: ?
<NCommander> oh, whoops
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
 * NCommander is still somewhat out of it
<plars_> We had pretty good coverage for images during the iso testing
<asac> good to hear
<plars_> all images (including alts) were tested
<plars_> pretty much everything that could be tested, was tested
<asac> really? were alternates tested before the release?
<plars_> could use some more testers though, if anyone has hardware and spare cycles to do it on A3, would be really helpful
<ScottK> NCommander: qt4-x11 4.6.1 is out, so expect several days this week where you can't build Qt stuff on armel because armel is out of sync with the arch all bits of the package.
<asac> ok. noted
<plars_> asac: yes
<asac> plars_: pleesa raise that the  week before next alpha
<asac> e.g. more testers
<persia> plars_: Can people with non-supported hardware (e.g. Beagle) help in any way with milestone testing?
<persia> ScottK: Thanks for the warning.  Any idea when it will be uploaded?
<ogra> not really
<asac> plars_: so will we do the all-pairs testing now during this test cycle? maybe creating a talbe on the wiki that gruemaster can fill during the cycle would be good
<plars_> persia: not really, since the milestones are targetted to the images for these supported platforms, however package testing can always be helpful, and can be done regardless of hardware
<ScottK> persia: Not for sure.  I'd say likely today, maybe tomorrow.
<ogra> yeah
<persia> plars_: Makes sense.
<plars_> asac: yes, plan on getting on that now that we have A2 behind us
<ogra> persia, the kernels might miss features we use ...
<persia> ScottK: OK.  We'll watch that before pusing the liquid stuff then.
<asac> plars_: right. just thinking that we dont really need to block on the iso tracker getting the testcases
<asac> we can use something else until that happens ...
<asac> thanks!
<asac> ok. thanks.
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<GrueMaster> asac: The problem wasn't iso.tracker.
<asac> err ... i didnt speak about any problem ;)
<ogra> why !
<ogra> :)
<asac> i was talking about all-pair testing now that A2 is out
<GrueMaster> The problem was the alt images came out at 8am UTC, midnight my time.  You started asking why  I wasn't testing at 3am my time.
<GrueMaster> ok
<asac> GrueMaster: right. thats not an issue. i dont see a problem with how the alt images were tested. actually happy that we now did a first run
<asac> my point was about organiing all-pair testing during a2 -> a3 dev cycle
<ogra> but we should see that we roll something testable earlier next round
<asac> and said that we dont need to wait for iso tracker getting those pairs to start testing them
<ogra> so GrueMaster has a chance to get it done on regular worktime
<asac> yes
<ogra> alternated for x86 are usually there very early
<ogra> even before desktop
<asac> alt images were the first time. we should have those available beginning of freeze period
<GrueMaster> speaking of which. meeting schedule.
<plars> they are on the blueprint wiki, as well as the qa wiki for the tests themselves.  I have access enough now I think to add them to the db
<ogra> asac, they are there ... we build dailies since jaunty :P
<asac> plars: cool. so lets just add them and use tracker
<ogra> asac, they are just not on the tracker until someone tells slangasek to add them
<asac> let me know when you added them
<asac> ogra: even better
<asac> ;)
<plars> asac: that's the plan, just going to have someone walk me through it the first time since it appears to be fairly manual, and I don't want to muck it up
<ogra> but they can be tested nontheless
<NCommander> We're over time
<ogra> (and should be)
<asac> plars: thanks. sounds good
<NCommander> Any last minute tihngs to bring up before I close the meeting?
<asac> NCommander: we are on time ;) ...
<GrueMaster> meeting schedule!
<asac> lets adjourn
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:00.
<NCommander> \o/
<NCommander> Thanks all
<asac> GrueMaster: ok
<cooloney1> cool
<ogra> thanks
<asac> GrueMaster: we can do that in the call ... you want to rorate it?
<cooloney1> thanks,
<asac> rotate?
<GrueMaster> It is now 6am my time.  Yes, I would like to rotate again.
<asac> i think we said to have 2 month same schedule
<asac> then rotate
<asac> how long is this schedule now?
<GrueMaster> We've been on this schedule since August.
<asac> hmm. actually i think we never talked about the meeting ... just the call
<persia> Are we discussing meeting schedules?
<persia> If so, I'll volunteer to be a recipient: all parties interested in attending the meeting, mail me with your UTC offset.  I'll find a couple candidates times that are least bad for the fewest people.
<asac> ok
<persia> NCommander: Please [ACTION] me with being a recipient in the meeting minutes.
<asac> i think the public meeting shouldnt rotate every 2 month though. easier for community to keep tstuff
<persia> And I'll report next week (at this time).
<asac> but it was since august, so fine.
<asac> lets discuss
<pitti> hello
<persia> Hey pitti.  It appears http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?id=E_ea7519273c82ed12 aren't available yet, so we don't know who is supposed to attend this meeting :)
<pitti> exactly
<pitti> I pinged mdz, but apparently he's in the FFA timezone
<pitti> (far far away)
<pitti> so we might need to skip this one
<persia> 3:00 there, I believe
<kees> \o
<persia> We may as well run through it.  I suspect we'll want to have the same continuity-preserving attendance next time.
<persia> As long as no binding decisions are taken, all should be fine.
<cjwatson> here
<kees> pitti_: you're here twice.  :)
<pitti> I know; I'm at my grandpa's at a very shitty mobile->proxoid->corkscrew->ssh tunnel connection
<cjwatson> so can we actually do anything other than action review?
<pitti> and having one remote and one local client, just to cover the disconnects :)
<kees> pitti: ah-ha, cool.
<pitti> we have one pending request from Martin-Eric Racine for per-package upload
<pitti> other than that I just see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<pitti> with the team membership being in limbo, I'd actually prefer to postpone the voting
<persia> I don't think the pending request can be processed today.
<cjwatson> agreed, our terms have expired
<cjwatson> which is regrettable, but not much we can legally do
<kees> yeah
<cjwatson> we need the returning officer to get out of bed
<pitti> the outstanding actions don't look to me as if we could do something about them right now?
<persia> The first item is essentially waiting for the poll to be closed.
<persia> The second item has been approved by the CC, pending assembly of the new DMB, so also waiting on the poll to be closed.
<cjwatson> and the third item I was hoping to get done this morning but spent it yak-shaving instead
<persia> chair for the next meeting?
<pitti> I'll be at the next meeting, anyway
<cjwatson> same resolution as last time
<pitti> it'll be during the platform sprint, but should be early enough to participate
<cjwatson> 15:22 <persia> I was thinking someone could volunteer to chair, and if they didn't happen to be on the board, act as a facilitator for that meeting alone.
<cjwatson> 15:23 <cjwatson> I can do that
<cjwatson> 15:23 <mdz> I think the "old" board should turn up at the next meeting regardless, to help with continuity
<cjwatson> 15:23 <mdz> at least some of us
<cjwatson> 15:23 <mdz> I will be traveling to a time zone which would make participation difficult
<cjwatson> 15:24 <pitti> I'm happy to join that meeting
<cjwatson> 15:24 <mdz> [agreed] cjwatson and pitti will participate in the next DMB meeting regardless of the election outcome
<cjwatson> 15:24 <MootBot> AGREED received:  cjwatson and pitti will participate in the next DMB meeting regardless of the election outcome
<cjwatson> 15:24 <mdz> you can work out what to do about a chair between yourselves ;-)
<cjwatson> I won't be on Pacific time yet; getting up at 7am will not be a problem
<pitti> same here
<cjwatson> any other business that we can usefully transact?
<pitti> seems not
<pitti> see you in two weeks then?
<cjwatson> then I think we're done; sorry this is rather unsatisfying
<kees> cool, see everyone then.  :)
<bjf> Roll Call
 * cking waves
 * rtg waves
 * ogasawara waves
<bjf> I believe that manjo, sconklin and amitk are probably not making this meeting
 * jjohansen waves
 * JFo waves
 * smb arrives 
<bjf> waiting for apw
 * apw is here
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<bjf> NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> skipping the open item, it's for amitk
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (1 bug, 3 blueprints) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<ogasawara> Alpha 3 Milestoned Bugs (29 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21445
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21445
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21445
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21445
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21445
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<ogasawara> Release Targeted Bugs (97 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<ogasawara>  * 8 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51
<ogasawara>  * 1 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove
<ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04
<ogasawara>  * 1 blueprint - https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: New metric (apw, ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: New metric (apw, ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Bugs with patches attached . . .
<ogasawara> In collaboration with the community team, it was thought that bugs with patches attached would be a good target for issues which we could likely fix quickly and therefore close.  It was requested we add this info to our weekly meeting
<ogasawara> 119 bugs with patches - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on
<ogasawara> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> i assume the plan is to include these in general stats above
<apw> and we continue to focus bug days on them?
<ogasawara> yup, that's what I had in mind
<bjf> apw, you asked for a specific agenda item
<apw> yeah i think for this meeting we wanted it out there as an item, we can evaluate if thats useful
<apw> as we move forward.
<bjf> ack
<apw> I think we should be pointng out that if yuou have spare
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<apw> cycles they may be sensible ones to look at.
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> I'm going to work on completing some of my work items this week.  For ex detect staging drivers.
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> we need to get our stuff together
<apw> for JFO too, so he can get the arsenal going regular.  at the next sprint if not before
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> apw: yes, was going to ask if you'd had time to merge your arsenal bits?
<JFo> +1 .. :)
<apw> no i'd forgotten, i'll add to my list
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<apw> shalle we have an item for sprnt too to review/complete the arsenal automation
<ogasawara> apw: I think that'd be good
<apw> Nothing to report here.
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> apw: I'll also plan to go over arsenal bits with JFo next week
<apw> good stuff ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<apw> We are going to review whether we should have all sub-systems builtin rather than as modules now that module probing is faster.  As a specific example we have just pulled out bluetooth as it will shortly be included in compat-wireless.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<apw> Lots of work on i915 leading to us switching i915.powersave=0 by default as we are seeing nasty twitching and blanking issues, as well as some suspend hangs.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> fixed regression Bug #507069
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 507069 in linux "aa-status is wrong for unconfined processes" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/507069
<apw> am i expecting an update for that, am planning on uploading 'now'
<jjohansen> debugging dfa optimization
<jjohansen> apw: okay
<cking> at least I now know what dfa optimisation is
<jjohansen> dfa optimization isn't tweeked yet but is giving about 40% size savings and 50% speedup
<jjohansen> :)
<apw> we still looking to get something committed this week on that?
<jjohansen> yep
<apw> cool
<jjohansen> its just working out a couple bugs
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<csurbhi1> csurbhi ..
<apw> we have regressed some since we gained plymouth in the initramfs
<apw> not sure if that is its final resting place yet, need to confirm with keybuk as to plan going forward
<apw> .
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<bjf> Nothing new to report
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> I need to finish an update to EC2 today
<jjohansen> and include the missing patches dir
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
<apw> Be aware a bunch of work items have appeared out of the woodwork.  It seems that we were losing some foreign items in the burndown charts.  I will be reviewing those once the new charts are up and running correctly and will try and summarise those which appear new.
<apw> We are just uploading a kernel update to 2.6.32.4 which also includes a bunch of patches from the mailing list.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
<smb> Dapper:     2.6.15-55.81 (security)
<smb> Hardy:      2.6.24-26.64 (security)
<smb> -LBM:       2.6.24-26.35 (proposed)[40]  0/ 1 verifications done
<smb> -LUM:       2.6.24-26.44 (proposed)[40]  0/ 1 verifications done
<smb> Intrepid:   2.6.27-16.44 (security)
<smb> Jaunty:     2.6.28-17.58 (security)
<smb> Karmic:     2.6.31-18.55 (proposed)[11]  4/12 verifications done
<smb> -LBM:       2.6.31-18-20 (proposed)[11]  0/ 2 verifications done
<smb> There is work going on for a security update on the kernel and on updating
<smb> the Karmic kernel to 2.6.31.12(final).
<smb> We are now also get close to the cutoff date for Karmic SRU patches to the
<smb> kernel. If there are upstream patches anybody wants to get SRU'ed into Karmic,
<smb> make sure to send them to the kernel-team list before Feb-12.
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<ogasawara> == regression-potential (up 5) ==
<ogasawara> 31 lucid bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential+lucid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> == regression-update (up 2)==
<ogasawara> 9 karmic bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> 5 jaunty bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+jaunty&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> 2 intrepid bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+intrepid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> 1 hardy bug
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+hardy&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> == regression-release (up 2)==
<ogasawara> 60 karmic bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> 22 jaunty bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+jaunty&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> 12 intrepid bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+intrepid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> 4 hardy bugs
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+hardy&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> == regression-proposed (no change)==
<ogasawara> 1 karmic bug
<ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-proposed+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> ogasawara, perhaps we could put all the links on the meeting page only, and just point one link there and just have the numbers
<ogasawara> apw: sounds much saner to me.  will have Jfo do this next week.
<JFo> yep
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Just a gentle reminder if you have a few spare cycles today:
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/BugDay/20100119
<ogasawara> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20100119.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20100119.html
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<bjf> ..
 * ogasawara raises hand
<bjf> ogasawara, go
<ogasawara> We should have probably done this in the beginning, but I wanted to formally introduce JFo as our new Kernel QA/Triage person
<JFo> O/
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> welcome aboard JFo
 * apw heaps lots of work on you
 * JFo would like to thank the Academy...
<smb> Don't be too quick :)
<JFo> heh
<JFo> ..
<bjf> anyone else have anything?
<bjf> once ....
<bjf> twice ....
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:22.
<cking> thanks bjf
<apw> bjf, thanks
<JFo> thanks bjf
<czajkowski> Aloha :)
<czajkowski> Anyone here for the LoCo Council meeting ..
<cjohnston> o/
<cjohnston> big crowd
<czajkowski> I'll give it a few
 * popey puts the dinner on simmer
<czajkowski> Agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda
<popey> thanks czajkowski
<czajkowski> popey: in case my net/irc dies can someone other than me chair this as I'm not sure how stable my connection is
<popey> ok
<huats> czajkowski, I am here too
<czajkowski> huats: hey
<huats> popey, what is a simmer ?
<huats> (I am curious)
<cjohnston> low basically
<popey> low heat
<popey> so it can stay there and not burn
<cjohnston> keep it warm
<huats> ok
<huats> :)
<huats> thanks for my knowledge :)
<czajkowski> shall we start?
<popey> ya
<huats> just the 3 os us ?
<huats> s/os/of/
<czajkowski> JanC: itnet7: ping
<huats> I mean from the council ?
<czajkowski> seems to be for now
<huats> ok
<popey> yeah
<popey> lets crack on
<popey> ok, so lucid roadmap is first
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Roadmaps/Lucid/LoCoCouncil
<popey> first thing was define a list of teams for re-approval
<popey> thats done...
<czajkowski> done  makes bacon happy :)
<popey> do you have the link?
<huats> :)
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<popey> got it
<popey> so basically all of those teams _except_ the ones approved in 2009
<czajkowski> nods
<huats> sounds good to me
<popey> "OBJECTIVE: Define a list of teams that the LoCo Council can target for re-approval."
<czajkowski> I have a rough mail drafted it needs to be looked over and tweeked
<popey> done, yes?
<czajkowski> DONE
<popey> "OBJECTIVE: Re-approve an agreed set of LoCo Teams"
<popey> in progress?
<popey> i.e. we havent got to that yet, but will will real soon now!
<huats> yep
<popey> cool
<popey> "OBJECTIVE: Better implement and document the re-approval process"
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval  has that
<popey> shall we say "In progress" until we have mailed loco-contacts and let everyone pick it apart?
<huats> sounds at like in progress to me
<huats> agreed
<czajkowski> ok
<popey> "OBJECTIVE: Improve awareness of the LoCo team re-approval process."
<popey> same :)
<huats> :)
<jono> sorry I am late
<huats> (+1)
<popey> once the mail goes to loco-contacts.. we can blog it perhaps?
<popey> np jono
<huats> mister jono you are forgave
<czajkowski> popey: aye and get it on the fridge?
<jono> huats, lol
<jono> :)
<huats> popey, I do agree also on the blog post
<popey> czajkowski: yup, if we agree the mail (in a bit - next item)
<popey> we can then blog and fridge it!
<popey> then we can consider it DONE :)
<popey> so right now, In progress with a view to being done very very soon
<popey> happy?
<czajkowski> delighted!
<jono> :)
<popey> czajkowski: will you be ok to update the status on the blueprints at the end of the meeting?
<czajkowski> yes will do
<popey> win!
<jono> what was the current status on the teams?
<jono> for re-approval :)
<czajkowski> most are inprogres
<czajkowski> and will be done by end of week
<popey> jono: we havent mailed any yet
<popey> the 1.2.3 is this..
<czajkowski> thats on the to do list this week
<jono> can I suggest they are broken up over the cycle
<jono> the teams on https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-loco-council-plans
<popey> 1. we mail loco contacts with a mail which czajkowski has drafted
<popey> 2. we mail the teams on that list
<popey> well, some of them?
<popey> first 5-10?
<popey> 3. ???
<popey> 4. Profit!
<czajkowski> grin
<czajkowski> ah yes that's what I wanted to clarify
<jono> popey, czajkowski I recommend you break the cycle up into weeks
<jono> and then spread them out and then it doesnt feel like too much work
<czajkowski> popey: re approval does that take place in meeting, or on emaik ?
<jono> make sense?
<czajkowski> jono: aye it does, there are 30 teams and 6 of us, so we had hoped to break it down a bit already
<jono> czajkowski, indeed
<popey> I'm happy to go with that, yes
<jono> I would recommend as an output from this session that you divide it into week, spread the teams out and allocate them to council members
<popey> suggestions on breaking up the list? just grab 5 at a time?
<jono> if they are not allocated, the cynical side of my brain thinks they may not be done :-)
<popey> ok, after the meeting I'll split the list up and allocate
<jono> popey, yeah, I don't think the order matters
<jono> popey, rock and roll
<popey> we need to update the list on the blueprint
<popey> we have a list on the wiki which is "better", we need to add that back
<popey> will do that once divided up
<popey> anything else on the topic of re-approvals?
<jono> thanks popey
<czajkowski> popey: I had thought just go 1,2,3..6 and repeat going through the list
<jono> one final thing
<czajkowski> avoding each council members loco
<jono> you should check progress of the current allocated teams in each meeting
<jono> will help identify blockers :)
<huats> I agree with czajkowski
<popey> yes
<popey> we have a table on the wiki to track progress
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<popey> maybe we should just move that to the blueprint? and track it there?
<popey> the wiki gives better formatting
<jono> wiki is fine, just updated outcomes on the BP
<jono> such as approved or rejected
<popey> ah, ok
<czajkowski> ah you mean the locos
<czajkowski> I see
<czajkowski> you want them updated on the BP also ?
<popey> just the overall end result czajkowski
<popey> not the ongoing communication status
<czajkowski> ok
<popey> that right jono?
<jono> yep
<jono> then BP subs can see the general progress
<popey> cool
<popey> so can we look at the mail laura wrote and just give a yay/nay to sending that to loco contacts?
<huats> ok it was not my understanding but it great too
<huats> (I mean the usage of the BP)
<popey> the usage of BP is just to let jono keep track on us ;)
<popey> I dont mind updating that from the wiki myself
<jono> :)
<popey> http://etherpad.com/DWoSGJB7cy  is the mail we should be sending to loco-contacts to let them know we are re-approving
<popey> jono: / huats ^ click
 * jono reads
<huats> popey, I read it this morning it is good to me
<popey> oh, cool!
<jono> perfect :)
<jono> great work czajkowski :-)
<popey> win
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda
<popey> nothing else on the agenda
<jono> maybe we can get the list of teams for reapproval hammered out?
<jono> before we do that
<jono> can I follow up on a few actions in the blueprint?
<jono> [popey] Make sure all approved teams on the wiki teams list are in the locoteams-approved Launchpad team: TODO
<popey> DONE
<jono> [effie-jayx] Determine the list of teams that are in locoteams-approved that have not been through the re-approval process: TODO
<popey> DONE, on the wiki and in the BP
<jono> [popey] Assign re-approvals across the council members: TODO
<popey> thats the list we have at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<popey> that one I will do tonight
<popey> after this meeting
<jono> cool
<jono> [popey] Document how a council member performs the re-approval process: TODO
<popey> DONE
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Roadmaps/Lucid/LoCoCouncil
<jono> [dpm] Invite translators to translate the overview document into different languages: TODO
<jono> I will assign dpm to this
<jono> hmm
<jono> one sec
<jono> on:
<jono> [popey] Document how a council member performs the re-approval process: TODO
<popey> sorry, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<jono> I would not say the roadmap is really documentation
<jono> ahh!
<popey> posted wrong url
<jono> great
<jono> [popey] Write up blog entries to explain how the process works and why: TODO
<popey> todo after the mail has gone to loco-contacts
<popey> i expect some mails back and forth about it
<popey> so blogs would follow based on feedback from loco contacts
<czajkows1i> bah
<jono> ok cool, popey, can you go and mark the ones that are DONE as DONE
<huats> popey, I think it is a good choice to wait for the first exchanges
<jono> on https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-loco-council-plans
<czajkows1i> jono: I'm in the middle of edting that now
<jono> thanks czajkows
<popey> yay
<popey> i am on sucky 3g at the moment
<jono> popey, np :)
<czajkows1i> popey: my net died again
<czajkows1i> popey: did you see my two questions re In progress??
<popey> n o
<jono> awesome, thanks folks
<jono> I have to run to catch a plane
<jono> speak to you in a bit
<popey> fly jono fly!
<jono> great work, you are rocking the LoCo Council!
<czajkows1i> jono: toodles
<czajkows1i> 20:32 < czajkowski> popey: am I right in say so [popey] Assign re-approvals across the council members: INPROGRESS
 * jono all smiles :)
<huats> enjoy your trip
<czajkows1i> 20:33 < czajkowski> and Document how a council member performs the re-approval process: INPROGRESS
<jono> thanks folks!
<popey> first one yes, second one done
<popey> the second one is effectively what we have on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<czajkows1i> any updates on
<czajkows1i> [popey] Make sure all approved teams on the wiki teams list are in the locoteams-approved Launchpad team: TODO
<czajkows1i> [effie-jayx] Determine the list of teams that are in locoteams-approved that have not been through the re-approval process: TODO
<popey> first is done
<popey> second done
<huats> guys the French team is not on the reapproval list,is it normal ?(I think I have already asked that but I forgot the answer)
<czajkows1i> blue print is looking good now :D
<popey> huats: its fine, there are lots that are not on the list
<popey> we just picked 30 at random
<popey> you were lucky this time :)
<czajkows1i> so I've a quick question
<popey> go
<huats> popey, ok
<czajkows1i> when we send out the mails to the LoCo for reapproval
<popey> ya
<czajkows1i> do we send it to the point of contact on launchpad ?
<popey> yes
<czajkows1i> grand
<czajkows1i> tick
<huats> popey, next time I see you, you'll get a drink for the good choice
<popey> if you like.. i can fill the table with points of contact
<popey> huats: effie chose, not me :)
<popey> but I'll have his drink anyway :)
<czajkows1i> popey: if you have to do it manually, then no
<popey> czajkows1i: i want to make te list easy
<popey> by linking to lp page, wiki page etc
<popey> just like when we have a meeting
<huats> popey, the council member will do it by him(her)self...
<popey> true
<popey> good idea
<czajkows1i> aye I think that's best
<czajkows1i> I just want it for the email for locoteams
<huats> ok
<popey> i think we might need to be careful who we contact
<huats> indeed
<popey> perhaps also look at the administrator of their mailman lists?
<popey> because (for example) the contact for the uk team isn't the admin of the lp team
<popey> although the loco team list page does list the contact for each team...
<czajkows1i> aye
<popey> ah, we'll worry about that when we get bounces ;)
<czajkows1i> should we also add a column to note when we made contact on the wiki ?
<popey> thats kinda what the "status" column is for
<huats> czajkows1i, good idea
<popey> free text to show what's been done
<huats> ok
<popey> sorry, not status, progress
<czajkows1i> ah ok so I can add mail sent DATE
<czajkows1i> ok
<popey> yeah
<huats> +1
<popey> 2nd mail sent, DATE..
<popey> 3rd mail sent, date..
<huats> yep
<popey> etc
<czajkowski> ok I think that;s all of the headings covered on the agenda so
<czajkowski> bp, roadmap and reapproval.
<popey> anything else you can think of we need to talk about czajkowski / huats ?
<huats> popey, nope
<czajkowski> ye
<czajkowski> yes
<popey> ooo
<czajkowski> todays email to the loco teams list
<huats> yep
<popey> yup
<huats> you are right
<huats> :)
<popey> what about it?
<czajkowski> how many contacts are required per team
<czajkowski> > Recently we have created the Ubuntu Colombian Council in order to divide
<czajkowski> > > responsabilities in the administration. We currently have 5 members of the
<czajkowski> > > council, including myself, the LoCo contact.
<czajkowski> > >
<czajkowski> > > At the last meeting of the council they asked me that which scenario
<czajkowski> > > may delegate more than a LoCo conctact? under which circumstances?
<czajkowski> > > or if it exist some restriccion to have more than one official contact per
<czajkowski> > > team. I have no found an answer so I ask the question here in the list.
<czajkowski> I don't know if there is an official answer to this but my personal
<czajkowski> view is that a LoCo contact should be an individual as the whole point
<czajkowski> of the role is to have an individual who can be contacted when
<czajkowski> necessary. I believe that not every local team does things this way
<czajkowski> now while it;s a bit early to vote/come to agreement I thought we could discuss it if we had a few mins
<czajkowski> though. It would be quite good to have the LoCo Council clarify the
<czajkowski> issue.
<popey> i think each team should run as it sees fit, but ensuring that it's possible to contact someone
<popey> huats: french team is big right? Do you have exactly one person who is the contact for the team?
<huats> from my point of view, there no common rules, and each team can run as it want
<czajkowski> it seems many locos operate so differnetly, some have just a point of contact (Ireland) others have teams , management and councils
<huats> popey, actually we are quite big
<czajkowski> huats: really you don't say 5000 people at a release party!
<popey> :)
<huats> :)
<popey> i dont think we should dictate this
<popey> each team has cultural differences and background
<popey> some prefer one contact person, some like a team
<huats> we have a many lists for different actions
<czajkowski> thats what I thought and seeing as the mail came in today from Mathew East I thought I'd bring it up in here
<popey> whatever works best for them
<huats> we have a few contacts currently on the wiki page
<huats> but on our website (for the french people) we point a few (3 IIRC)
<popey> it makes sense in terms of volunteers to have multiple people
<popey> because people get
<popey> * get busy, go on holiday etc
<huats> exactly...
<czajkowski> nods
<popey> so long as it doesnt lead to confusion or lack of communication between members of the "leadership"
<czajkowski> makes sense
<huats> popey, that is the idea..
<popey> happy with that czajkowski ?
<czajkowski> happy as larry!
<czajkowski> Ddorda: do you want to say something?
<Ddorda> czajkowski: sure
<Ddorda> we have a problem in our LoCo in the way things are going
<Ddorda> the LoCo leaders are the owners of the LoCo, and there's is no discussion about anything with the community
<czajkowski> Ddorda: I know you;ve mentioned this in -locoteams, but you may need to explain it to huats and to popey
<Ddorda> czajkowski: okay
<huats> czajkowski, I have read the email but it is always good to hear again
<popey> I am going to have to disappear and come back later..
<Ddorda> there was 2 LoCo leaders so far, Shezif and Beni. Beni wasn't active for about 2 years
<Ddorda> and Shezif was being the only owner of the community
<popey> czajkowski / huats I will action the items in a bit, when my connection is back
<czajkowski> popey: grand
<huats> popey, ok
<Ddorda> if someone had an idea to imporve the community that he didn't like, he just said no, and if you were trying to do it anyway you got banned
<czajkowski> Ddorda: see there is no owner of a community
<Ddorda> czajkowski: well, he is the owner, notthe LoCo leader
<Ddorda> as should be
<huats> Ddorda, how can he be the "owner" of the community ?
<huats> what do you mean ?
<Ddorda> huats: he do w/e he wants, it's more Shezif's Community about Ubuntu than an Israeli LoCo
<huats> ok
<Ddorda> for ex. he made a project with an university in the south
<huats> Ddorda, it is not really the idea of an Ubuntu LoCo we want to push
<Ddorda> didn't tell anything about us until maybe an half month before it
<huats> (from my point of view)
<Ddorda> huats: I knowm that is my complaint
<czajkowski> Has you loco had a meeting and tried to talk to him , possibly showing and discussing the leadership role http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct
<Ddorda> czajkowski: I tried to organize a meeting as you suggested, but there was no response, I belive it went down in the forums before anyone saw it
<Ddorda> anyway, for now he chose 2 new managers
<Ddorda> because he's going to the army
<czajkowski> Ddorda: can you clarify, your LoCo holds all it's meetings on forums ??
<czajkowski> do you have any IRC meetings?
<czajkowski> make your minutes public and send to your mailing list
<Ddorda> czajkowski: no. the managers have discussions on the managers forum
<czajkowski> that's not very open or ideal
<Ddorda> and yes, only forums meetings
<czajkowski> huats: what do you think ?
<Ddorda> the chat is for support (as much as the forums are)
<huats> czajkowski, I agree
<huats> czajkowski, IRC meeting a really for discussion
<mhall119|work> Ddorda: would the members be willing and able to do an IRC meeting?
<huats> czajkowski, Ddorda IRC meeting are almost needed for discussion
<czajkowski> Ddorda: I think the loco council will most likely contact the loco team and see if they will talk over email with us, possibly an irc meeting
<Ddorda> mhall119|work: I guess so, but time should be choosed, and Im not sure if i;m supposed to ask in the forums what os the best time, or just give a date and hour
<czajkowski> Ddorda: thanks for bringing this up
<Ddorda> huats: there is no discussion between the community and the managers
<czajkowski> I might do a blog post on suggestions to help locos do certain things, while they are not mandatroy they are best case examples
<Ddorda> they manage and they ask for supoort or write guides. that's how it works
<huats> Ddorda, I think the time will be choose by the council and the contacts
<czajkowski> in the mean time, the loco council will discuss and drop the israel team an email, ok ?
<huats> czajkowski, agreed
<czajkowski> Ddorda: is that ok?
<czajkowski> as I'd like more people present for the discussion if possible.
<mhall119|work> would someone from the LC moderate an IRC meeting if one is held?
<Ddorda> czajkowski: sure. btw, one of the new managers is very open thinking, and I beliebe he will help you
<Ddorda> called Akiva
<huats> czajkowski, may be we can proceed that by email in the LC
<czajkowski> Ddorda: ok, thank you
<czajkowski> huats: yes
<Ddorda> mhall119|work: I guess so
<czajkowski> Does anyone elese have any other loco council issues?
<mhall119|work> I have a request of the lc
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: shoot
<mhall119|work> http://growingupfree.org:8000/ is the upcoming changes to the loco directory
<mhall119|work> with event tracking
<czajkowski> <3 event tracking :D
<mhall119|work> since LC members have the magical ability to add/manage global events, your help in testing it would be much appreciated
<mhall119|work> that's all
<mhall119|work> and thanks
<czajkowski> so you;'d like the 6 of us to go and have a play with it and let you know how it goes
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> :)
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: thank you for your work on this
<czajkowski> and to the others
<czajkowski> I for one am thrilled for such a feature
<huats> mhall119|work, may be send an email to the LC ...
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: would you mind also dropping us an email
<mhall119|work> sure, what's the address?
<czajkowski> but I'll poke folks also about it
<czajkowski> loco-council<at>lists.ubuntu.com
<czajkowski> :)
<czajkowski> ok well if that's it
<mhall119|work> cool, it'll have to wait until I get home, smtp is blocked here at work
<czajkowski> I think we'll call the meeting to an end
<czajkowski> Thanks folks for coming and taking part
<huats> thanks czajkowski
<huats> and everyone else
<mhall119|work> thank you
<czajkowski> yes
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-20
<zul> hi
<jiboumans> o/
<nijaba> \o
<Daviey> o/
 * nijaba runs to get a coffee before the meeting starts
 * jjohansen waves
 * stgraber waves
<smoser> hi all
<ttx> o/
<mathiaz> \\o
<ttx> our beloved boss is busy doing... manager stuff, so I'll chair this one
<jiboumans> ttx++ # thanks
<ttx> zul, soren, jjohansen: around ?
 * jjohansen waves to ttx
<ttx> I suppose kirkland is sleeping
<zul> maaaybe
<ttx> let's get started
<ttx> #startmeeting
<ttx> ...
<ttx> No MootThing
<ttx> I'll be today's scribe, lucky me
<ttx> so we'll try to keep it short :P
<soren> o/
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting (ttx)
<ttx> * ScottMoser to look at getting Karmic images refreshed.
<ttx> * Mathiaz to send out AWS Client lib RFC
<mathiaz> ttx: done
<ttx> * ttx to coordinate alpha ISO testing.
<ttx> done
<ttx> * ttx for papercuts: discuss acceptance criteria, project publicity plan
<ttx> mail sent, no answer, more in this meeting
<ttx> smoser: status on first action in list ?
<ttx> * Mathiaz to publish papercuts & apport efforts in our blog/community channels
<mathiaz> ttx: done
<ttx> * mathiaz to publish request for iso testing in our regular blog/community channels
<mathiaz> ttx: done
<smoser> eric verified karimc-proposed for me.
 * mathiaz feels repetitive
<smoser> we hope to have that refresh end of week.  pitti said he will push to -updates.
<ttx> smoser: we will, you mean :)
<ttx> [ACTION] smoser to publish karmic cloud image refresh
<smoser> sounds good.
<ttx> ok, next subject
<ttx> [TOPIC] Spec quickreview (ttx)
<ttx> So, this is where we communicate a short oneliner about each spec
<ttx> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<ttx> server-lucid-cloud-krd
<ttx> (smoser)
<ttx> I want a short status, "on track" is OK
<smoser> boothooks, krd and config on srack.
<ttx> Note that in the future, you should update the "Status:" part of the blueprint before the meeting
<ttx> so that status shows automagically on the report
<ttx> so I don't want to see "(not updated)" there anymore :)
<soren> Err...
<ttx> server-lucid-vmbuilder-multiple-outputs (soren)
<smoser> krd is giving me some fits right now, it *should* be fixed on ec2, and i've even verified in one case, can't figure out why my official builds pushed this morning are not working.
<soren> What are the valid statuses we can put there?
<ttx> "On track", "Doomed"...
<ttx> "OMG"
<ttx> Anything else than "On track" will be further discussed during the meeting.
<soren> ttx: I thought it would be parsed and interpreted by some script or whatnot so it had to be some specific set of statuses. Ok, no worries.
<ttx> soren: oh, no. It's just a freeform status
<ttx> soren: what about server-lucid-vmbuilder-multiple-outputs ?
<soren> on track
<ttx> server-lucid-vmbuilder-multiple-outputs
<ttx> arrh
<ttx> server-lucid-mysql-5.0 (zul)
<zul> on track
<soren> on track!
<ttx> server-lucid-eucalyptus-merging-and-packaging (kirkland)
<soren> I keep telling you!
<soren> dude!
<soren> :D
<ttx> on track
<ttx> server-lucid-id-mgmt-login-testing (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> ttx: started - on track
<ttx> server-lucid-daily-vcs (zul)
<zul> started
<ttx> server-lucid-canonical-application-support (zul)
<zul> on track
<ttx> server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
<ttx> on track, more about it today
<ttx> server-lucid-aws-client-libraries (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> ttx: on track as well
<ttx> This is getting old
<ttx> Anyone has anything not on track ?
<soren> I can stop working on things, just to spice things up?
<soren> No charge.
<soren> No?
<soren> Oh, well.
<ttx> Everyone: please update the status in your specs so that we can call it done
<zul> heh
<mathiaz> ttx: well - there are a couple of my specs that haven't started yet
<ttx> and do so before every meeting at the very least
<mathiaz> ttx: so I can't really say wether they're on track or not
<ttx> mathiaz: right. And until the alpha3 plan is finalized that doesn't make so much sense anyway
<mathiaz> ttx: the close we get to the deadline, the more accurate I can say wether they're on track or not
<ttx> Which brings us to...
<mathiaz> ttx: right - how about that?
<ttx> [ACTION] everyone: update status for your specs before the meeting starts
<ttx> (next week)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Alpha3 subcycle planning (ttx)
<ttx> So this is still work in progress, should be officialized this week
<mathiaz> ttx: does it mean that spec will be added?
<ttx> As a reminder High priority specs should be dealt with before the "Medium" ones, which are in turn more important than the "Low" ones
<mathiaz> ttx: dropped?
<mathiaz> ttx: WI revisited?
<ttx> mathiaz: The targets are being reviewed
<mathiaz> ttx: you mean the WI lists or the goals?
<ttx> that could end up in specs being dropped
<ttx> the goals
<ttx> Prio 1 specs ("High") should not change, so work can safely start on them.
<mathiaz> ttx: ok
<ttx> as well as everything that spilled over from alpha2
<ttx> (don't follow my look)
<mathiaz> ttx: and there isn't any hidden spec (critical ones) that would show up on the radar?
<ttx> mathiaz: no
<ttx> There might be new Prio 2 ones, or things moving from prio 3 to prio 2...
<ttx> but we don't expact anything
<ttx> Any other questions ?
<zul> nope
<ttx> moving on, then
<ttx> [TOPIC] server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
<ttx> So today I wanted to discuss with everyone the acceptance criteria and best way/timing to announce the project
<ttx> I sent an email to the ubuntu-server ML about this
<ttx> does the criteria announced there make sense, and is it sufficiently precise to allow us to deny/accept bugs ?
 * ttx digs up link
<soren> ttx: Was just about to ask that :)
<ttx> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2010-January/003648.html
<ttx> The project was created, and a group to act as triagers was created
<ttx> Comments ?
<soren> At a glance, the criteria look fine.
<alexm> any package can be triaged as a papercut or only those in main?
<ttx> alexm: I'd say, any.
<soren> Anything server related, IMO.
<soren> Be it main or universe (or multiverse).
<alexm> great
 * zul likes the branding
<ttx> ok, then, if those make sense, we'll try them out.
<ttx> we can revisit them if they end up being a complete failure
<ttx> About publicity plan now
<ttx> We need bugs to be nominated now
<ttx> So I think we should communicate about that phase widely
<ttx> I can do a (personal) blogpost about it
<zul> as can i
<soren> What's the plan? Collect and process papercuts until X milestone, and then go into fixing mode?
<ttx> What else should we aim for ? UWN ?
<alexm> i will too in my loco
<ttx> soren: yes
<mathiaz> I've already published a blog post on the ubuntuserver blog
<ttx> Fixing should start after alpha3
<zul> uwn obviously and a post to ubuntu-devel as well  i think
<ttx> ... which probably means that those should all be bugs not affected by FeatureFreeze, methinks
<ttx> mathiaz: Aw, I missed it
<ttx> ok
<ttx> Anything else on that area ?
<ttx> [ACTION] ttx, zul to blog about papercuts, make sure UWN gets the word
<ttx> [ACTION] tx to send email about criteria and nomination to ubuntu-devel, ubuntu-server
<ttx> Moving on
<ttx> [TOPIC] server-lucid-apport-hooks (zul)
<zul> hi
<zul> so at uds in dallas we talked about having apport hooks in server packages can help the quality of the bug reports we recieved
<zul> the spec is at https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-apport-hooks
<zul> and so we have come up with a list of packages based on number of bugs in launchpad and other factors
<zul> the list can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ApportHooks
<zul> if you want to help out with this effort please sign up
<zul> i think thats it from me
<zul> oh yeah and i blogged about it last week as well so there is some publicity around this as well
<zul> any comments?
<ttx> anyone interested in helping Chuck ?
<zul> dont all yell at once ;)
<mathiaz> zul: I've posted a post about it on the ubuntuserver blog
<zul> mathiaz: cool i must have missed it
<ttx> ok, let's move on... zul will do a weekly update on the progress of the apport hooks effort during the meeting.
<Daviey> zul: Having never written an apport hook, i would like to have a play with what is involved before offering :)
<ttx> Daviey: it's easy, and fun !
<zul> Daviey: yeah I was the same way its not that hard, there are plenty of examples though
 * ttx wonders if there is an apport session during devWeek
<Daviey> neat
<zul> when is devweek again?
<ttx> next week
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren)
<zul> oh i dont think so but in the past there has been sessions on how to write apport hooks
<ttx> soren: how is quality going
<mathiaz> soren: any one processing the mysql build failure?
<soren> mathiaz: Not that I know of.
<soren> ttx: It's improving!
<mathiaz> soren: I've been receiving these messages in my Inbox for a few days
<soren> mathiaz: So you should be super motivated to fix it :)
 * ttx hesitates between fixing it and writing a filter rule for it
<soren> ttx: Since last week I've extended the ISO testing stuff somewhat.
 * nijaba thinks that ttx second option lasts longer ;)
<mathiaz> soren: well - I think the next step should be to identify *why* it fails
<mathiaz> soren: after that we can see *how* it should be fixed
<zul> nijaba: yes but you will get warm and fuzzies if you fix it
<ttx> soren: extending, how ?
<soren> I can now at the click of a button run ISO tests of the cartesian product of i386/amd64,lvm/non-lvm,basic/mail/bind9/lamp/postgresql installs.
<ttx> ah, ok
<soren> I'll be adding the last few server ISO test cases either this week ornext.
<mathiaz> soren: do you have a describition of your setup somewhere?
<soren> ..and I'll add a live CD test as well so that the desktop people can see how Ã¼ber cool the stuff we're using is.
<mathiaz> soren: could this be included as part of the checkbox automatic test runs from marc tardif ?
<soren> mathiaz: I started documenting it, but I was changing it faster than I could describe it, so I put that on hold for a bit.
<mathiaz> soren: fair enough
<soren> It will move to be run along with Marc's other tests.
<ttx> soren: anything else before we move on ?
<soren> ...and part of that involves documenting the whole thing.
<soren> Just one thing.
<soren> UDW is next week, and I have a session on this stuff, so if you're interested, come join me.
<soren> It's Tuesday at... er... 2000 UTC, I think.
<zul> when?
<soren> It's Tuesday at... er... 2000 UTC, I think.
<soren> :)
<soren> UDW = Ubuntu Developer Week, by the way.
<soren> That's it from me.
<ttx> Plenty of crazy stuff @ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Sessions !!
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<soren> Unless anyone has questions, of course.
<ttx> jjohansen: o/
<jjohansen> \o
<ttx> We have one specific bug to discuss
<ttx> I'll let smoser do the talking
<smoser> whoowhoo
<smoser> ok.
<jjohansen> okay, well I did some test kernel builds for said bug
<jjohansen> Bug #494565
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494565 in linux "support ramdiskless boot for relevant kvm drive interfaces in -virtual" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494565
<smoser> so, we have a blueprint that wishes to have UEC and EC2 images booting without a ramdisk (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-cloud-krd)
<smoser> in order to do that, we need support for the block devices used by EC2 and UEC built in to the respective kernels.
<jjohansen> right, EC2 is not a problem
<ttx> jjohansen: how did those tests go ?
<jjohansen> ttx: okay
<smoser> the UEC images use '-virtual' which is a "sub-flavour" of '-server' for amd64 and -generic-pae for i386
<ttx> jjohansen: eta for fix ?
<jjohansen> ttx: not yet
<jjohansen> there needs to be a decision made about how we are going to proceed
<soren> Why is this a problem?
<smoser> it is not possible for jjohansen to change the config of -virtual and keep it a "sub flavour"
<jjohansen> -virtual is a subflavour and can not have its own confings
<jjohansen> so either we start a new flavor
<soren> I thought you guys were building a whole bunch of stuff into the kernel anyway to avoid the need for a ramdisk for the common case (for boot speed purposes)?
<jjohansen> or change -server and -generic-pae
<smoser> so we either need to build the support for the relavent block devices into -server/-generic-pae, or split -virtual off into a separate entity
<jjohansen> configs
<zul> jjohansen: shouldnt the xen block devices be already built in?
<jjohansen> zul: for EC2 yes
<smoser> ec2 yes, but thats really a non-issue as ec2 affects nothing else
<ttx> jjohansen: I suppose it's a kernel team decision ?
<jjohansen> ttx: well we need some server team input
<smoser> our choice to bbuild in CONFIG_SCSI_SYM53C8XX_2=y could have negative affect
<smoser> as in it would no longer be blacklistable.
<jjohansen> basically how much of an impact would building them into -server have
<soren> eh?
<soren> UEC uses scsi disks?
<smoser> we would also like to build in CONFIG_VIRTIO_NET=y and CONFIG_VIRTIO_BLK=y but I expect those would have less negative consequences.
<jjohansen> smoser: it can be disabled
<smoser> jjohansen, oh? via cmdline you can say "don't do anything" ?
<jjohansen> yeah basically
 * soren taps his microphone
<smoser> soren, yes. UEC uses scsi disks.
<soren> smoser: Oh, wow.
<smoser> it runs kvm with -drive if=scsi
 * soren wonders why
<ttx> jjohansen: and the cost of splitting -virtual into a separate entity ? It's a maintenance cost for the kernel team, right ?
<smoser> the only options are ide, scsi or virtio.
<jjohansen> right
<mathiaz> smoser: to support EC2 images?
<smoser> mathiaz is right, thats the assumption/explanation we have is that they use if=scsi so 'root=/dev/sda1' will work
<mathiaz> smoser: IIRC UEC needs scsi drives in order to be able to provide the scratch space from EC2 as /dev/sdb
<smoser> it is obviously possible to change eucalyptus, to use if=virtio, but that really is somewhat more heavy handed.
<smoser> the basic question here is:
<mathiaz> smoser: and run EC2 images *without* any modification
<smoser> Does anyone expect negative fallout of changing:
<smoser> CONFIG_VIRTIO_NET=m
<smoser> CONFIG_VIRTIO_BLK=m
<smoser> CONFIG_SCSI_SYM53C8XX_2=m
<smoser> to the '=y' values.  that would occur in -generic-pae (which affects people other than -server) and in '-server'
<soren> No.
<jjohansen> the only one that should cause any problems is ONFIG_SCSI_SYM53C8XX_2=y
<soren> jjohansen: Why is that?
<smoser> mathiaz, where "without any modification" needs "if you're willing to pretend that swapping out a kernel is not a modification"
<jjohansen> I don't expect virtio to be used in general
<jjohansen> but sYM53C8XX has caused scsi problems in the past
<jjohansen> rare but possible
<mathiaz> smoser: hm right.
<soren> Do we know why UEC uses scsi disks?
<smoser> soren, googling for 'blacklist sym53c8xx' does have some hits. but jjohansen indicates that you could still effectively blacklist that.
<mathiaz> soren: I've just outlined the reason above
<smoser> soren, you're not listening. mathiaz explained that.
<mathiaz> soren: IIRC UEC needs scsi drives in order to be able to provide the scratch space from EC2 as /dev/sdb
<ttx> ok, we'll have to have a discussion about that. The no-ramdisk feature might not be worth the risk
<mathiaz> soren: and run EC2 images *without* any modification
<smoser> soren, and i'm guessing you're suggesting 'virtio' rather than 'ide' as the replacement ? virtio would require guest drivers, which may not be present at all.
<ttx> (or additional workload)
<soren> smoser: No, not at all.
<soren> smoser: I'd use ide.
<smoser> which would be slow
<smoser> er
<soren> Not really.
<mathiaz> smoser: the other thing is that we could add udev rules to create that symlink for virtio block devices (to emulate /dev/sdb from EC2)
<soren> These are not actual scsi controller or ide controllers. This is all emulated.
<smoser> with guest modification, yes, mathiaz . note, that not all OSes support virtio
<mathiaz> smoser: but that means not *all* EC2 images would run unmodified
<ttx> i'll raise a thread so that we can continue this interesting discussion
<mathiaz> ttx: ++
<smoser> soren, yes, but the scsi is emulated faster. this is what i've understood from some of the kvm folks.
<ttx> moving on
<ttx> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (ttx)
<smoser> ttx, i'll raise the thread on -devel
<ttx> [ACTION] ttx to raise thread about the no-ramdisk / -virtual config tradeoff
<smoser> unless you object.
<ttx> and I delegate that to smoser.
<smoser> moving on.
<ttx> :)
<ttx> Same status as last week...
<ttx> nothing assigned to team
<ttx> [ACTION] zul, kirkland to unassign themselves from "maybe working on one day" bugs
<zul> didnt have a chance to do that last week
<zul> but ill do it now
<ttx> anything else about the list ? In its current form it's not really exploitable, zul & kirkland please fix that
<ttx> moving on
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> two bugs nominated for karmic
<mathiaz> bug 434701
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 434701 in python-boto "Main Inclusion Request: python-boto" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/434701
<mathiaz> bug 379329
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 379329 in openssh "CVE-2008-5161: OpenSSH CBC plaintext recovery" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/379329
<mathiaz> first one is bogus
<mathiaz> and the security team is probably taking care of the second one
<ttx> second one is securityteam-land
<mathiaz> jdstrand: kees: ^^?
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> anything worth on this list^^?
<zul> there is a whole bunch of samba bugs that I fixed yesterday
<zul> which is not on the list
<mathiaz> zul: right - the list is generated on monday nights  IIRC
<mathiaz> zul: they will show up next week
<ttx> will be on next week's
<zul> ok
<mathiaz> nothing SRU worth??
<ttx> nothing from me
<zul> the apxs one maybe
<ttx> http://launchpad.net/bugs/503402
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 503402 in samba "winbind crashes on authentication (winbind_pam_auth)" [Medium,Fix released]
<ttx> but already accepted
<mathiaz> zul: well - it seems like it's a build failure from an upstream source
<mathiaz> zul: not sure if it's SRU worth
<mathiaz> zul: if the released version of php5 would fail, that would be more annoying
<zul> fine with me
<mathiaz> ok - last one: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> there a bugs that have been accepted and have someone assigned
<mathiaz> please move them forward and bring them to -proposed
 * ttx cleans up the list a little
<mathiaz> that's all for the SRU review
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<ttx> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<ttx> Next week, same batplace...
<ttx> Questions / remarks / Thoughts for the day ?
<mathiaz> move the meeting time and day?
<jiboumans> as a heads up; in 2 weeks (first week of feb) we have a sprint
<alexm> i heard about lucid being delayed
<alexm> is that true?
<jiboumans> it's likely that the server meeting that week will be canceled
<ttx> alexm: ah ? Interesting, I think I would know
<alexm> that's what i thought too ;)
<mathiaz> alexm: where?
<ttx> alexm: At least, I hope they would tell me :)
<alexm> people from my locoteam
 * ttx could use a few more years before release.
<alexm> maybe the rumours come from the forums
<zul> pfft
<ttx> pfft
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I think I mentioned the ssh thing last week. it is on our radar, it is for our team to fix. if someone from the server team/community wants to develop a patch and do the testing, we will sponsor it
<alexm> ttx: don't worry at all, just wanted to be sure, thanks
<jdstrand> mathiaz: otherwise, perhaps it should be taken off your todo list, since it is on ours?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: well - it's on the list of nominated bugs for karmic
<mathiaz> jdstrand: that's why it shows up on the review
<jdstrand> (that said, there are higher priority issues in front of this issue)
<ttx> jdstrand: just accept the nomination :)
<mathiaz> jdstrand: should the bug be accepted for karmic?
 * ttx closes the bar
<ttx> it's time to go home, mathiaz.
<ttx> #endmeeting
<ttx> (as if the bot was listening)
<jdstrand> mathiaz, ttx: accepted
<mathiaz> jdstrand: great -thanks!
<jdstrand> I didn't realize that was why you were talking about it
<mathiaz> jdstrand: sorry for not providing enough context
<jdstrand> np
<Daviey> thanks
<jiboumans> thanks guys, and thanks ttx for running the show today
<lool> barry, cjwatson, ev, tremolux, james_w, doko_, mvo, Keybuk, slangasek: Hey!
<mvo> hey lool
 * slangasek waves
<cjwatson> here
<lool> #startmeeting
<barry> me
<lool> Hmm that will be a botless meeting
<lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0120#Agenda
<ev> hi
<barry> yeah, i think mootbot is dead (it the earlier launchpad meeting)
<lool> Not sure Keybuk will join as I understand he is travelling
<lool> tremolux doesn't appear on IRC either
<lool> Someone saw james_w?
<lool> No recent activity either; let's get started then
<doko_> pong
<lool> [topic] Lightning Round
<lool> We will do the lightning round in the following order:
<lool> barry, cjwatson, ev, lool, doko, mvo, slangasek
<lool> barry: Mind starting?
<barry> sure thing
<barry> I was off last Wednesday so it was a short week for me.  I worked on packaging a Python library not currently in Ubuntu from scratch, and got it successfully built in my PPA.  I update the Python distribute package from Debian, got that successfully built in my PPA, and submitted a merge proposal for updating Lucid.  I did both using the UDD method, sent an email of the experience to the mailing list and 
<barry> some time reading up on the dh_python thread in debian-python, made some responses, and worked on my own fat byte-compilation file PEP.  I also did some planning for Pycon.
<lool> Thanks; cjwatson?
<barry> no blockers
<cjwatson> done: sent foundations-lucid-reliable-device-id-in-grub to Debian, iterated a bit, end in sight now; fixed repeated debconf-communicator startups in ubiquity
<cjwatson> blocked: nothing
<cjwatson> todo: finish grub device-id work; deal with network device problems in foundations-lucid-fix-iscsi-root; move on to designing UI for LVM/RAID in ubiquity (carried over)
<cjwatson> also I've fixed the "Milestoned bugs" link on the agenda, please reload
<cjwatson> [done]
<lool> Ah thanks; I copied it from the templates, but we didn't go through these in the last couple meetings so wasn't sure whether I'd cover these
<lool> ev: How are things doing for you?
<ev> Landing branches.  Taking a look at the jockey ubiquity integration.  Looking into the passthrough debconf stuff to assist in installing packages from oem-config.  Was working on page transitions in ubiquity, but some of that has been taken over by design.  Trying to reproduce and fix bug 497985.
<ubottu> Bug 497985 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/497985 is private
<ev> blocked: geoip work, but a date is set for IS to finish their end by
<ev> done
<lool> Thanks; I come next;
<lool> Did a bunch of very different small things, lots of MIRs, ARM-ish work, qemu patches; was on leave one day; not blocked on anything.
<lool> doko_: How goes?
<doko_> OOo ARM fix, final eglibc 2.11.1 upload, backport of optimized string functions from trunk, submit more GCC and package bugs for 4.5 rebuild test, GCC-4.5 updates, GNAT build on ARM
<doko_> plus more ARM thumb package reviews
<lool> Thanks; mvo what are the news on your side?
<mvo> working on foundations-lucid-support-timeframe-information,
<mvo> landed first merge of my launchpad branch in dogfood, working on
<mvo> the client side now;
<mvo> software-center ui work, speed problems with GtkTreeView in non-fixed height mode, proposed patch upstream (no feedback yet);
<mvo> doing low-hanging fruits for local-repository support spec (pinging people) and created squid-deb-proxy package (in review state currently);
<mvo> [done]
<lool> slangasek: and you're up now
<slangasek> got alpha-2 out the door last week; congrats all on an all-around nice milestone
<slangasek> did some post-a2 follow-up on mountall, plymouth problems
<lool> Thanks
<lool> [topic] Outstanding actions from last meeting
<lool> Apparently none
<slangasek> working on 8.04.4 this week, still aiming for next Thursday as a release date - candidate ISOs should be posted soon, testers wanted
<lool> (Oh sorry; I thought you were done; I should leave more time)
<slangasek> that's it now :)
<lool> Thanks :)
<lool> So there was no particular topic on the agenda for today
<lool> slangasek: Since 8.04.4 is coming, is there a list of bugs we should be reviewing here perhaps?
<lool> The template suggests looking at milestoned bugs and lucid bugs, and at the sponsorship queue; not sure it's the right time of the release cycle to look at lucid bugs in detail yet
<slangasek> lool: not really; the set of bugs for fixing in 8.04.4 is already set in stone, we're on to milestone validation
<lool> Ok; I didn't see any topic to bring up in the meeting in the ARs on the wiki page
<lool> [topic] Good news
<lool> Anyone has some good news to share? :)
<cjwatson> ... how depressing ;-)
<lool> Well it's a very sad week indeed
<barry> ;)
<lool> I guess it's election time
<lool> [topic] next week chair
 * lool looks around
<mvo> I can do it
 * lool hugs mvo 
<lool> [topic] AOB
<lool> Any last minute topic?
<slangasek> who moved us above the burndown line? :)
<cjwatson> I have one
<cjwatson> just a quick note really, regarding items for IS
<cjwatson> I know that we have a few IS dependencies for feature freeze; hopefully most of them are dealt with now, but in general, if you have IS things you're blocked on (as opposed to nice-to-have tickets), please drop me an e-mail note with [is-review] in the subject and I'll make sure that they're covered in my fortnightly calls
<lool> slangasek: I see a lot of workitems are being added to blueprints reflecting work which was just done; that pushes the bar to the top   :-/
<slangasek> lool: that's not what pushes the bar of *todo* items to the top
<lool> slangasek: Ack
<lool> Ok; well that was a short meeting!
<lool> Thanks everybody
<lool> #endmeeting
<mvo> thanks
<barry> thanks lool!
<slangasek> thanks
<ev> thanks
 * marjo_ waves
<pedro_> hello folks
 * ara waves
 * fader_ waves.
<sbeattie> hey all
<marjo_> #startmeeting QA Team Meeting
<soren> o/
<pedro_> no bot?
<marjo_> no bot?
<marjo_> #endmeeting
<marjo_> guess not
<fader_> Doesn't look like the bot is even in the channel
<soren> We used it a couple of hours ago..
<marjo_> how to restart it?
<soren> ah no we didn't. My mistake.
<marjo_> Agenda:
<marjo_>     * Introduce Jeremy Foshee
<marjo_>     * SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo_>     * Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo_>     *
<marjo_>       Ubuntu Global Jam https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<marjo_>     * Ubuntu 8.04.4 point release testing -- ara
 * primes2h waves
<primes2h> Hi all
<marjo_> JFo: welcome to the QA team!
<sbeattie> Welcome JFo!
<ara> JFo, welcome!
<pedro_> welcome JFo!
<fader_> JFo: Hello!
<marjo_> Jeremy Foshee has joined as the Kernel QA Engineer
<marjo_> when he's able he'll do a self intro
<marjo_> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2009-12-13):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 12 new packages in -proposed (autokey, bzr-builddeb, evolution-mapi, kdepimlibs, openbve, pulseaudio, quassel, rhythmbox, software-center, soya, vim-rails, xfce4-power-manager) and 6 packages pushed to -updates (cryptsetup, gcc-4.4, krb5, opensc, rhythmbox, xserver-xorg-video-intel)
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 2 new packages in -proposed (gdesklets, kopete-cryptography) and 1 package pushed to -updates (krb5)
<sbeattie> * intrepid: 1 package pushed to -updates (krb5)
<sbeattie> * hardy: 2 packages pushed to -updates (krb5, linux-modules)
<sbeattie> Thanks to Eric Hammond, Max, Neil Woolford, RainerT, Mitch Towner, Christian Mangold, Wesley Schwengle, sektor, darren, Karl Frisk, Camilo Soto, Valentijn Sessink, and japi for testing fixes this week.
<sbeattie> (erk, lost my dapper status, there was 1 update, for krb5 and no proposed packages)
<marjo_> thx sbeattie!
<sbeattie> Also, 8.04.4 is still planned to be released next week, there's still at least one SRU that needs verifying (grub) that's included on the isos.
<pedro_> what's the bug number of that SRU ?
<sbeattie> bug #185878 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/185878
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 185878 in grub "GRUB installation fails if installing to certain non-ext3 filesystems" [High,Fix committed]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 185878 in grub "GRUB installation fails if installing to certain non-ext3 filesystems" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/185878
<pedro_> thanks
<davmor2> sbeattie: went to verify it today as they have added propsed but there is an issue with d-i and the current kernel will retry tomorrow
<sbeattie> slangasek just started spinning 8.04.4 test isos, so that'll help testing that particular issue; also, we'll be looking for iso testers as well.
<sbeattie> davmor2: ah, okay.
<sbeattie> davmor2: and thanks for trying!
<sbeattie> That's it on the SRU front.
<marjo_> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> On Thursday 14th we celebrated a bug day based on GNOME Power Manager
<pedro_> it was *awesome* : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100114
<pedro_> great participation from our rocking community
<pedro_> ~174 bugs were triaged, Thanks a lot to our hug day heroes: xteejx, kamusin, cyan-spam, boniek, ben-v-root, ikt, pauld, yofel and showard314
<pedro_> Tomorrow we're having a bug day based on Network Manager Applet https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100121
<marjo_> thank you all!
<pedro_> thanks to kamusin for helping out to organize it, he's a rockstar
<pedro_> so if you have some time and want to learn a bit more about bug triage join us, we'll be glad to help you out to start :-)
<marjo_> thx kamusin
 * fagan here
<pedro_> that's all from here marjo_
<marjo_> hey fagan
<marjo_> welcome
<marjo_> ok folks, Jeremy is ready to do his self intro
<JFo> hi folks :)
<JFo> apologies for missing you earlier
<JFo> I have been picked up to do Kernel Bug Triage for the Canonical team earlier this month.
<JFo> Leann is my mentor, so I know I am in great hands.
<marjo_> good mentor!
<JFo> I look forward to meeting all of you as time goes on and working with you closely to address our common issues :)
<JFo> indeed she it
<JFo> errr is
<JFo> heh
<marjo_> thx JFo
<JFo> my pleasure :)
<marjo_> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Global Jam
<fagan> congrats and welcome JFo
<marjo_> folks: pedro & I wanted to remind everyone about this important event coming up
<JFo> thanks fagan
<marjo_> please check out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<pedro_> yeap as you can see there, we're responsible for two of the topics
<pedro_> Bugs and Testing
<ara> I also want to add that we are running an Upgrade Testing party during the event
<ara> to encourage people to upgrade to Lucid from Karmic and Hardy, and report back any issues
<pedro_> previous jam we wrote down some instructions, ways to communicate with the team, tasks, etc
<pedro_> so if you have some time please have a look to those docs to ensure everything is up 2 date
<pedro_> or if you have more ideas for the community to try during the event
<pedro_> make sure those are added to the wiki
<pedro_> the Global Jam is organized between the 26th and 28th of March, but looking at those docs soon is always better ;-)
<fagan> I got lagged there :/
<marjo_> [TOPIC] Ubuntu 8.04.4 point release testing -- ara
<ara> I just wanted to remind you that next week Ubuntu 8.04.4 is release
<ara> and therefore, we will need to test the ISOs as usual
<ara> I will send a call for testing, but I wanted to comment it here, so you can put it in your calendars
<marjo_> thx ara!
<soren> Thanks for mentioning it!
 * fagan will help if needed
<marjo_> fagan: thx, please plan on it
<fagan> I did it on monday and it went fine for me
<marjo_> folks: any new topics for today?
<marjo_> fagan: thx, glad to hear it
<fagan> Did ye all talk about upgrade testing from hardy yet
<marjo_> yes, as part of Global Jam coming up
<marjo_> "we are running an Upgrade Testing party during the event"
<fagan> Ah if anyone has any questions about it ive done it twice now
<davmor2> marjo_: should we do some dapper to hardy testing for this point release?
<fagan> davmor2: Is anyone still actually on dapper?
<soren> fagan: I know at least one company that still runs some Dapper systems.
<davmor2> fagan: does it matter it's a supported release
<sbeattie> fagan: yes, it's still a maintained platform (at least on the server side)
<fagan> davmor2: for desktop its eol
<fagan> Oh I forgot about server
<soren> Dude!
 * ScottK had a Dapper desktop until two months ago.
 * fagan feels silly
<marjo_> soren: glad you're on the QA team
<soren> :D
<sbeattie> davmor2: if time permits, I think we should try to do dapper -> hardy upgrades.
<fagan> Id like to try a dapper->hardy->lucid desktop upgrade
<sbeattie> it's less crucial for 8.04.4 specifically.
<davmor2> sbeattie: I'll hit some up this week mvo do you want to know about breakages directly?
<charlie-tca> The upgrade path will be dapper -> hardy -> lucid?
<sbeattie> fagan: that would be awesome; if there's things we need to fix in hardy before lucid is released, we want time to fix and test.
<fagan> sbeattie: Id be glad to just getting my older laptop from my dad to test it well
<sbeattie> charlie-tca: LTS -> LTS -> LTS is intended to be a supported upgrade path.
<fagan> My laptop is too new and hardy doesnt even work right
<charlie-tca> okay, I will try to run some tests on it too.
<sbeattie> charlie-tca: that'd be great, thanks!
<charlie-tca> no problem
 * fagan never ran dapper
<fagan> or feisty for that matter
<marjo_> folks: any more new topics for today?
<fagan> marjo_: I dont have any
<ara> not from my side
<davmor2> not from me pretty much covered in others
<marjo_> ok, meeting adjourned
<marjo_> thanks everyone!
<pedro_> thanks
<fader_> Thanks all
 * charlie-tca ran dapper until 8.04
<davmor2> thanks
<marjo_> #endmeeting
<kamusin> thanks!
 * stgraber waves
 * highvoltage waves from the bottom half of the planet
 * Lns puts on his tie
<mgariepy> hi everyone!
<highvoltage> hi mgariepy
<alkisg> Hi all
<stgraber> highvoltage: do we have an agenda ? or is that just like status update + free discussion ?
<highvoltage> stgraber: it's the usual technical update (sabayon, disc status, etc), tomorrow's wiki day, etc
<stgraber> doh, haven't blogged yet ...
<stgraber> doing so now ;)
<highvoltage> the agenda on the wiki is a bit dated, I guess we can just jump into it
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, I wondered what you did with that image :)
<dhillon-v10> hi all :)
<stgraber> highvoltage: nothing, that's the issue ! :)
<highvoltage> hi dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, what's up :)
<stgraber> so, I guess, first of all, thanks everyone for helping releasing alpha-2
<stgraber> it was a hard week especially due to some last minute issues but it's a very good first Alpha for Edubuntu (we didn't have alpha-1)
<highvoltage> we have an alpha release \o/
 * Lns cheers
<stgraber> so, seeing that Scott isn't here, I'll start with a quick status update on my work
<highvoltage> stgraber: I proposed some changes to the seeds, I linked a bzr branch, what's the next step so that we can get it merged?
<stgraber> I started to look at having LTSP on the live CD, I have a working patch to build it on Canonical's builders that I need to have review by lamont and possibly fix a bit
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, brb
<highvoltage> stgraber: oh nice, I was wondering about that today.
<stgraber> I also opened a bug against ubuntu-cdimage to drop all packages from the DVD except these required for LTSP and the netbook desktop
<stgraber> that should free up 2GB or so once done
<alkisg> \o/
<stgraber> once these two are done, I'll have a look at updating ubiquity a bit
<stgraber> so we can actually use these packages
<stgraber> I also did the changes alkisg's requested on the seeds (make everything recommends)
<alkisg> (thanks!)
<stgraber> and forgot about highvoltage's merge proposal :) I'll have a look later (don't hesitate to nag me)
<highvoltage> stgraber: so the netbook desktop packages are already on the dvd, we just need to find a friendly way to install them right?
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep
<highvoltage> stgraber: great, thanks :)
<stgraber> at the moment you can set the DVD as a repository and install the netbook edition from that
<stgraber> without any need of external repository
<stgraber> ok, next is LTSP, I've been doing quite a lot of upstream work recently, trying to optimize it and making it more stable. I'm hoping to have .99 released this week with working Fat client (thanks alkisg and highvoltage) and nbd-proxy
<stgraber> then we can fix some bugs and get 5.2 released !
<highvoltage> nice!
<Lns> that is awesome
<highvoltage> stgraber: I tested that one-liner, I had to add another 2>/dev/zero to quite things down but it works just fine
<stgraber> Also for this week, I expect to have the Edubuntu menu editor on REVU and get it approved by some MOTUs (highvoltage ? ;))
<alkisg> LTSP 5.2 and edubuntu Lucid will ROCK :D
<highvoltage> stgraber: /proc unmounts fine without -l
<alkisg> highvoltage: did you try with edubuntu server + edubuntu chroot?
<stgraber> highvoltage: cool, please talk with alkisg about it, he's been doing some testing too.
<alkisg> (let's talk in #edubuntu about it)
<stgraber> mgariepy: ^
<stgraber> mgariepy: status update on the menu editor ?
 * stgraber says looking at him, some 1m away ;)
<highvoltage> alkisg: not yet, only ubuntu + ubuntu, I'm meaning to test more different things. for some reason if you specify a custom repository it doesn't enable universe by default, so xubuntu-desktop doesn't work for me but it's something I'll certainly dig in to
<mgariepy> i've been working to have the dnd working in profilesManager, it's now working.
<alkisg> highvoltage: ubuntu fat chroot works, edubuntu doesn't
<highvoltage> alkisg: yes we'll take it to #edubuntu afterwards :)
<mgariepy> i need to code some glue to manages files and treeview update.
<mgariepy> beta package should be there this weekend
<mgariepy> any questions ?
<highvoltage> nice :)
<alkisg> great!
<highvoltage> mgariepy: so we should be able to get a package in before feature freeze right?
<stgraber> we'll probably need some example menus after that, so be prepared to poke your contacts in various countries to get example application set
<mgariepy> i'll post in edubuntu-user when the packages are released
<stgraber> highvoltage: FF is mid-february so if we upload this weekend + write the MIR, that'll be an easy one
<stgraber> highvoltage: I can easily update it even after FF, but I need it to be promoted before.
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok
<stgraber> anything else in the status update ?
<stgraber> how are we doing with artwork ?
<highvoltage> I need to get in touch with Mads again
<highvoltage> I told him that ideally we'd like it ASAP, but I also know you can't rush an artist :)
<highvoltage> I'll poke him just so that he's reminded
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, just a little side question: are you guys all done packaging stuff for edubuntu
<stgraber> ok, if we don't get something in the next two weeks, I'd suggest we poke ubuntu-artwork, what do you think ?
<highvoltage> sbalneav e-mailed the guy from digital blasphemy
<highvoltage> he said that he'd even pay up to R300 for him to do some nice artwork
<stgraber> I know he really wanted to help so I just think he's quite busy at the moment
<highvoltage> erm, $300
<highvoltage> stgraber: +1
<stgraber> dhillon-v10: well, I'm not aware of any actual packaging work going on at the moment for Edubuntu
<stgraber> though we'll include new applications for sure
<stgraber> but that's just a seed change
<dhillon-v10> stgraber, ahh alright :)
<stgraber> website update ?
<highvoltage> hmm, the two people active on it aren't here atm
<dhillon-v10> me :) still a few bugs left
<highvoltage> oh right, dhillon-v10 is here :)
<stgraber> what's that test URL again ?
<highvoltage> (sorry dhillon-v10 I confused you with mhall119|work there for a moment)
<dhillon-v10> stgraber, highvoltage my exams are going on so can't do a lot but tomorrow is the last one so yay :) I'll get the bugs down to 0 tomorrow
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, np :)
<stgraber> dhillon-v10: rocks !
<alkisg> I think for the "digital blasphemy" artwork we need to propose some ideas, sbalneav send us an email but noone replied...
<dhillon-v10> stgraber, sorry for the delay, I just had a lot of studying work
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, i need to talk a little about the wiki pages
<dhillon-v10> a lot of them need to be updated, some renamed, and others removed
<highvoltage> let's move on to wiki stuff, I think it's important since our wiki day is tomorrow
<stgraber> just something before we talk about the wiki
<stgraber> As most of you probably have read, I became an Ubuntu Membership Board member yesterday and Edubuntu would like to have upload rights for edubuntu-dev
<stgraber> I'd suggest we have someone look at the various wiki pages and then sends a formal request to the DMB
<stgraber> so we (as in DMB) can review it at the next meeting and get that done
<stgraber> IIRC for delegated upload rights, a team needs to have policy wiki pages written as well as a LP team correctly setup and check who's a member of that team
<dhillon-v10> stgraber, i can help with setting up the wiki pages
<stgraber> anyone who'd be able to spend some time looking at that and write the required documentation ?
<dhillon-v10> o/
<highvoltage> stgraber: I suppose there are some existing team policy pages we can look at as guidelines?
<stgraber> we'd probably need an EC member to help there and send the actual request
<stgraber> highvoltage: yes, mythbuntu-dev and kubuntu-dev are good examples
<dhillon-v10> stgraber, ahh :) nvm
<stgraber> the package set on LP for edubuntu is also currently wrong, but that's something we'll need to ask afterwards
<highvoltage> I could do that, dhillon-v10 could set up and help and I'll get feedback making sure the EC reads our policies and agrees so that we can get going with that
<stgraber> dhillon-v10: you can probably help anyway ;)
<stgraber> highvoltage: sounds good
<dhillon-v10> stgraber, highvoltage alright sounds good :)
<stgraber> good, wiki day then ;)
<highvoltage> (I'm just looking for a mail I sent before regarding wiki pages...)
<highvoltage> I sent this before, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-January/003229.html
<highvoltage> it contains a list of pages
<highvoltage> some of them shouldn't be there of course, like those under the JordanMantha/ namespace, etc
<sbalneav> Arggh
<sbalneav> lunch
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, a friend of mine is a wiki admin so he can help us with deleting the pages :) and later on when I become an admin I can do it myself ;)
<highvoltage> the pages that should be moved, obviously, are those that have titles like EdubuntuCommunity, EdubuntuData, etc that aren't under the Edubuntu/ namespace
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: I think anyone can delete pages these days? (I know I can)
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, oh yeah you are right :P
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, forgot about that
<highvoltage> I think we should also have page with a list of pages we propose to delete, then we get togethe every few hours or so and decide on it
<highvoltage> once all those pages are moved and the horrible pages are deleted, the wiki should be in an ok state afaict
<highvoltage> any comments/suggestions/ideas?
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, hopefully when we are done tomorrow, the wiki pages get will be great :)
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, *s/get/
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: yeah we'll need some prettyfying done as well :)
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, lol prettyfying: that's a good word
<highvoltage> terrifyingly good.
<alkisg> There's also the handbook, but it's outside of the wiki: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, oh wasn't there like a little handbook that was supposed to go with edubuntu
<dhillon-v10> alkisg, yah that one :)
<alkisg> ;)
<dhillon-v10> alkisg, highvoltage does that need updating or is it done ?
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: there's HowToCookEdubuntu/
<alkisg> It's a very good work but I'm afraid it's quite obsolete :(
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: I think it never got finished, I think it will be a good idea to look at what's there and decide whether we should keep it or trash it, or keep parts of it and assimilate it in other Edubuntu pages
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, btw the new site looks pretty cool :)
<dhillon-v10> alkisg, highvoltage, alright that's on the agenda for tomorrow as well
<highvoltage> if it's obsolete to the point that it would be less work to start from scratch then I say we should archive it and remove it from the wiki
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: which site?
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, the one HedgeMage and I are working on
<highvoltage> sbalneav, stgraber, Lns: any other words on the wiki?
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: yes, indeed!
<stgraber> blogged !
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh :)
<Lns> highvoltage: looking at it right now
<highvoltage> I have a bunch of meeting notes from the last 2 months that I need to put on the wiki still
<highvoltage> they've been sent to the list, but I haven't though of putting them up there, I'll do that tomorrow and start doing so after every meeting
<mhall119|work> am I missing anything important?
 * mhall119|work wasn't paying attention
<Lns> ehm... wiki.edubuntu.org ? is that right?
<highvoltage> Lns: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu
<highvoltage> (although I use http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu since the ubuntu theme is more functional)
<Lns> ah that one's better heh
<sbalneav> highvoltage: I won't be taking too active a role on the wiki day, as I already did the bug day, but if there's any pages that need my imput, feel free to ping me tomorrow.
<highvoltage> I've wondered before whether we should keep using both domain names. people get terribly confused
<sbalneav> input
<Lns> are we not redirecting this one yet to wiki.edubuntu.org or is that something different? there's a lot of obsolete info on wiki.edub...
<sbalneav> Geez, shouldn't have has 2 beers at lunch.
<sbalneav> had
<highvoltage> many people thing it's two different wikis, I've seen people post links from both domains that was essentiall the same page and then they said "look here and here"
 * sbalneav shuts up
<Lns> hahaha
<highvoltage> sbalneav: thanks
<highvoltage> Lns: wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com is exactly the same wiki
<Lns> oh...weird
<Lns> that can be confusing! =)
<highvoltage> heh, see the case I made above :)
<Lns> yeah
<highvoltage> people also go to wiki.edubuntu.org and expect to find the *edubuntu* wiki in the root there
<Lns> well sure
<stgraber> highvoltage: well, it'd make sense ;)
<Lns> that's what i did
<highvoltage> I'd rather have us just use wiki.ubuntu.com and set up some domain forwarding or something from wiki.edubuntu.org
<Lns> totally
<Lns> who's the head wiki person?
<dhillon-v10> Lns, i would like to be ;)
<Lns> hehe ok
<highvoltage> heno did all the wiki stuff for us back then
<stgraber> yeah, it was Henrik before he moved to QA and now to ISD
<Lns> Do you guys think community/get involved/contact could all be one category/link?
<highvoltage> Lns: yes, ideally.
<highvoltage> Lns: and it could probably live on the website as well, since it's mostly static information
<Lns> yeah
<Lns> just looking at ways to make the main page as easy to navigate as possible
<stgraber> looking at the fact we have 13min remaining and we have sbalneav around now, I'd suggest we discuss the wiki in #edubuntu after meeting or tomorrow during the wiki day
<Lns> k
<dhillon-v10> stgraber, okay :)
<highvoltage> imho the wiki is great for things like specifications, planning, meetings and things that need wide-area input, but the website should really be the place to find information about edubuntu, and educators, students and other people who might want to get involved are more likely to check the website than the wiki
<highvoltage> right, let's move on
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, the contact module that we made had a similar mind-set :)
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: awesome
<highvoltage> sbalneav?
<highvoltage> well, no more beers for you :)
<Lns> is he passed out? =p
 * Lns gets the sharpie
<highvoltage> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ also has the same problem
<highvoltage> http://wiki.xubuntu.org/ doesn't have any problems, it just works
<alkisg> Heh
<sbalneav> highvoltage?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: any updates, any news on sabayon, gksudo perhaps?
 * Lns takes the lampshade off sbalneav's head
<sbalneav> gksu's fixed
<sbalneav> sabayon works
<sbalneav> specs are being written
<highvoltage> sbalneav: wow, you should blog about it :)
<sbalneav> handbooks's being looked at
<sbalneav> beer is being drunk
<sbalneav> All in all, things are pretty good down sbalneav way :)
<highvoltage> yeah I'm also the same after just 2 beers, which is why I don't drink often :)
<highvoltage> sbalneav: cool, that's the way we like it!
<sbalneav> God's in his heaven and the universe is unfolding as it should :)
<highvoltage> anything else before we adjourne?
<alkisg> Wow, what kind of beers where tehy?
<stgraber> sbalneav: you released a new sabayon right ?
<highvoltage> any issues we should know about?
<Lns> i got something quick
<highvoltage> are everyone as satisfied with life as sbalneav and I?
<sbalneav> stgraber: I Did!
<highvoltage> Lns: fire away
<sbalneav> In my role as upstream, 2.29.5's out.
<stgraber> sbalneav: any idea when we'll have that in Lucid (I'll sponsor)
<Lns> as per the list discussion re: ldap.. i think it would be a good idea for those who would like to, to hop over to #ubuntu-server and say hi, and maybe sub to their listserv
<sbalneav> I can package it tonight.
<sbalneav> I'll pingy you.
<Lns> at least they will see that there are people in the edubuntu community that want to work with them on some stuff
<sbalneav> I should be less tipsy by then :)
<stgraber> sbalneav: hehe, ok, I'll be around.
<Lns> I could see a lot of positive things coming from working with the ubuntu server team
<Lns> both for edubuntu and ltsp
<stgraber> Lns: I'm already involved with the server team (for some server specs I'm implementing, mainly virtualization and they know that I'm the LTSP contact)
<Lns> awesome!
<highvoltage> Lns: ltsp technically falls under the server team, not edubuntu :)
<sbalneav> Lns: Owing to you're enthusiasm, I'll venture once more into the breach, my friend.
<sbalneav> your
<sbalneav> *hic*
<Lns> highvoltage: ah gotcha =)
<Lns> well
<stgraber> the server/french/cloud (whatever you call it ;)) team guys are very friendly, so don't hesitate to join ubuntu-server ;)
<dhillon-v10> gotta go guys, bye :)
<Lns> the more people in there representing edubuntu, the better
<highvoltage> yep, can't argue there
<stgraber> anything else ?
<stgraber> (would be awesome to have a meeting finishing right on time ;))
<highvoltage> not from me
<alkisg> nope
<highvoltage> *bong*
<alkisg> ok, back to #edubuntu...
<SergioMeneses> hello...
<MagicFab> wow this can't be all Edubuntu leftovers :D
<pedro_> only 3 minutes!
<pedro_> hola MagicFab
<MagicFab> pedro_, o/
<kamusin> yajÃºuu
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, speak Spanish?
 * MagicFab feels this one will be exciting :D
<pedro_> SergioMeneses: well Chilean, is that Spanish? ;-)
 * MagicFab cheeeers!
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, soy de Colombia
<IngForigua> Hola
<SergioMeneses> xD
<MagicFab> brianchidester, o/
 * pedro_ abraza a SergioMeneses
<kamusin> hola :P
<IngForigua> Que vivan los hispano hablantes
<SergioMeneses> IngForigua, ++
<IngForigua> Hoy dominamos la sesion :D
<PabloRubianes> jaja andan todos por aca
 * MagicFab saca el guaro - hay pa' todos
<mmgc84> hola a todos
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, sos parte del team cl?
<IngForigua> PabloRubianes: Si :D
<pedro_> al parecer hay una gran cantidad de hispanos en la lista para el meeting de hoy
<cristianvirtual> IngForigua: hola siempre te leo en identi.ca :)
<pedro_> SergioMeneses: si seÃ±or!
<kamusin> asÃ­ es ..
<IngForigua> guaro lo recibo xD
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, q bueno :)
<IngForigua> cristianvirtual: ecubuntu ?
<pedro_> SergioMeneses: kamusin y cristianvirtual tambien son de ubuntu-cl
<mmgc84> no es por nada pero Alucard sucks!!!!
<cristianvirtual> ubuntu-cl
<mmgc84> x)
<hollman> MagicFab, el cristal ;)
<SergioMeneses> kamusin, cristianvirtual un saludo
<cristianvirtual> hola SergioMeneses
<kamusin> hey SergioMeneses gracias !
 * pleia2 waves
<IngForigua> Deberian hacer esta sesion en espaÃ±ol
<pedro_> shall we start?
<IngForigua> y diegotc?
<kamusin> absolutamente
<SergioMeneses> kamusin, cristianvirtual pedro_ https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ChileanTeam \m/
<tatica1> IngForigua ya lo llamo
<IngForigua> it's time good luck everyone
 * MagicFab explains : guaro = 40C degre (or more) alcohol
<IngForigua> MagicFab: thanks :D
<SergioMeneses> MagicFab, el guaro va a tener impuesto proximamente xD
<IngForigua> SergioMeneses: Que mala noticia xD
<SergioMeneses> hay gente de Venezuela?
<kamusin> wow, santiago esta caluroso tambien (35-36Â°)
<IngForigua> tatica1: Si dile que se apure que el va de primeras
<tatica1> si
<MagicFab> DiegoTC seems MIA for now, I'd suggest starting with the next member
<MagicFab> (aspiring)*
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<SergioMeneses> aprovechando a los amigos hispanos los invito a: http://www.linuxzone.es/2010/01/19/ayuda-en-la-creacion-del-manual-de-ubuntu/
<pleia2> oh
<IngForigua> SergioMeneses: Que bien
<pleia2> no bot :\
<pedro_> mootbot is dead :-(
<kamusin> ouch
<pleia2> alright, well welcome to the Americas Board Meeting :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
 * MagicFab whistleeees
<DiegoTc_> hello
<pleia2> DiegoTc_: you're up :) please introduce yourself and give us a link to your wiki page
<IngForigua> DiegoTc_: Hello it's time
<DiegoTc_> Hi mi name is Diego Turcios
<SergioMeneses> hello DiegoTc_
<DiegoTc_> I am from Honduras
<DiegoTc_> I am the team contact of Ubuntu Honduras roght now
<DiegoTc_> mi wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiegoTurcios
<DiegoTc_> my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiegoTurcios
<DiegoTc_> also I am part of the ubuntu beginners team :D
<pedro_> DiegoTc_: are you planning to apply to the Spanish Translators team?
<DiegoTc_> pedro_: that is one of my objectives of this year
<leogg> I want to cheer for DiegoTc_ I met him at the Central American Ubucon last year and he's a really cool guy, very enthusiastic and active in the Central American community
<lukjad007> I'm here to cheer for DiegoTc_ As well :)
<DiegoTc_> guys having problems right now with my computer :(
<cjohnston> DiegoTc_ has also help in planning the Spanish version of User Days...
<lukjad007> I met him at #ubuntu-beginners
<cjohnston> And done a great job with setting it up.
<tatica1> I belong to Ubuntu Honduras team and I can say Diego is the most active member of our team
<IngForigua> i cheer DiegoTc_ for you leadership in central america :S
<Silver_Fox_> I fully support DiegoTc_  's application.  He is very friendly and helpful.  His activities in Honduras Loco Team have been remarkable.  He is the embodiment of everything a ubuntu member should be.  Please consider his application favourably.
<tatica1> he encouraged us to keep going !!!!!
<lukjad007> He was always very respectful, helpful, and friendly. :)
<MagicFab> I guess we can all complete his presentation :) DiegoTc_ just rocks :) I've witnessed the re-borth of the Honduras team under his watch.
<greg-g> thank you for your testimonials/cheers, everyone.
<MagicFab> And his testimonials section has to be a record :)
<PabloRubianes> DiegoTc_: has help me a lot with the User Days spanish version, Great work
<IngForigua> DiegoTc_: is an excelent leader :D in honduras
<pleia2> yeah, it's great that the first User Days has a spanish version :) great job guys
<lukjad007> I have seen the amount of time and effort which DiegoTc_ puts into his (ubuntu) projects. They are enormous.
<DiegoTc_> thanks guys :D
<pleia2> great work DiegoTc_ :)
<pleia2> +1
<pedro_> awesome job on Honduras DiegoTc_, keep up the good work and hope to see you soon in the Spanish Translators team :-)
<technoviking> +1 from me
<pedro_> +1 from me as well
<greg-g> +1 from me, too. Great work with the loco.
<cody-somerville> +1
<pleia2> congrats DiegoTc_!
<leogg> felicidades DiegoTc_
<itnet7> Congratulations DiegoTc_ !
<Silver_Fox_> Well done DiegoTc_  =]  You deserve it!
 * lukjad007 high fives DiegoTc_ 
<DiegoTc_> Thanks Guys :D
<IngForigua> Felicitaciones DiegoTc_ :D
<pedro_> Felicitaciones DiegoTc_
 * alucardi felicita a DiegoTc_ 
 * MagicFab chants!!!! ---> http://ur1.ca/kb6l
<DiegoTc_> Gracias a Todos
<tatica1> :D Congrats DiegoTc_
<SergioMeneses> DiegoTc_, :)
 * MagicFab manda un gran abrazo - hugs!!
<pleia2> alucardi: you're up :) please introduce yourself and link to your wiki page
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, DiegoTc_
<PabloRubianes> felicidades DiegoTc_
<DiegoTc_> gracias a todos
<DiegoTc_> me voy tengo clases
<DiegoTc_> :D
<SergioMeneses> DiegoTc_, exitos
<alucardi> Hello, my name is JosÃ© Ernesto DÃ¡vila Pantoja
<alucardi> I'm member of the Ubuntu Nicaraguan LoCo Team. I've been with the since the very beginning
<alucardi> and since then I have dedicated part of my time to use and promote Ubuntu and the free software Philosophy in all my LoCo activities and events.
<alucardi> My Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Josernesto
<pleia2> alucardi: how old is the Ubuntu Nicaraguan team?
<alucardi> 3 years the next month
<pedro_> alucardi: any plans for the next Ubuntu Open Week?
<greg-g> alucardi: nice, that is a healthy loco, then.
<alucardi> pedro_: of course
<pedro_> alucardi: are you going to have it again in spanish? (that'd be sooo great)
<leogg> among other things alucardi was the one responsible for making the Spanish Ubuntu Open Week come true :)
<pedro_> \o/!
<alucardi> pedro_: as the past UOW we will organize th spanish edition
<IngForigua> i want to cheer alucardi excelent job for ubuntu, his contributions are awensome
<pleia2> excellent
<pedro_> alucardi: cool!
 * MagicFab waves - gotta go
<mmgc84> i want to cheer for Alucardni since the momment that i meet him i felt his vibe
 * IngForigua alucardi rocks :D
<mmgc84> Alucard gives anf gives and keeps giving, in our Loco team we have some key player and Alucardni is one of that key players
<yn1v> alucarni has been in every single one of ubuntu-ni activities collaborating actively
<yn1v> his idea of ubutuweek in Spanish was good, but his follow up made it a success
<pleia2> +1
<technoviking> +1
<pleia2> great work alucardi :)
<pedro_> +1 from here too
<cody-somerville> +1
<itnet7> very good work alucardi !
<greg-g> +1 from me, another great loco contributor
<leogg> felicidades alucardi :)
<pleia2> congrats, alucardi!
<pedro_> congrats alucardi!
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, alucardi
<IngForigua> Que bien alucardi un miembro mas :D
<alucardi> thank you!
<pleia2> Iowan: you're up, please introduce yourself and provide a link to your wiki page :)
<itnet7> Congratulations!!
<SergioMeneses> alucardi, good
 * alucardi is so happy!! \o/
<Iowan> Nerve time...
<SergioMeneses> alucardi, congrax
<Iowan> Wiki:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Iowan
<Iowan> My name is Allen, I live in ... <surprise> Iowa where it's freezing rain
<Iowan> Thanks to cariboo907 for taking time away from the forum to sit in.
<cariboo907> youe welcome
<Iowan> I suspect we'll both be back there later
<pleia2> Iowan: how is the iowa loco doing?
<Iowan> Iowa loco may not "officially exist" the IowaTeam doesn't show much activity
<pleia2> any plans for making it more active?
<Iowan> I know there are other Iowans out there - just don't know how to round them up
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> it can be tricky :)
<Iowan> I'd love to - I'm just not sure how big a job it might be
<Iowan> Original "manager" seems to have moved out of state - the radio station and community college seem to be remnants
<Iowan> "Somebody" needs to - so that might be me...
<itnet7> 3600 posts in the last ten months woohoo!!
<Iowan> Post count is only part of the story - hopefully many have ben helpful
<cody-somerville> Indeed Iowan :)
<cariboo907> You have been quite helpful many times
<itnet7> Nice job in the forums... I agree Iowan, you have solved a lot of problems no doubt
<Iowan> Posting for the sake of numbers is counterproductive...
<cody-somerville> Iowan, Its nice to hear that Iowan. Sometimes folks get caught up on the numbers. :)
<itnet7> It's one thing when someone says that they "help" in the forums, it's another when there are three testimonials and so much graditude for a great forum contributor
<greg-g> well, I think the board is ready to vote....
<pleia2> really great forums work, Iowan!
<pleia2> +1
<greg-g> +1 from me, 3 great applicants in a row!
<pedro_> indeed great work there, +1
<technoviking> +1
<pleia2> Iowan: and feel free to talk to the wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams if you would like some mentoring/help with your loco :)
<greg-g> pleia2++
<Iowan> Thanks I'd appreciate some help!
<cody-somerville> +1 :)
<pleia2> congrats and welcome Iowan!
<Iowan> Thank you ! This is a commitment - not a trophy!
<pedro_> congrats Iowan!
<greg-g> congrats Iowan!
<tatica1> Good for you Iowan, congrats!!!!!
<cariboo907> congrats Iowan
<SergioMeneses> Iowan, congrats
<itnet7> Congratulations
<hollman> Iowan, felicitaciones y un hug :P desde Colombia
<pleia2> SergioMeneses: you're up, please introduce yourself and provide a link to your wiki page :)
<SergioMeneses> hi all
<SergioMeneses> My name is Sergio Andres Meneses, I study computer engineering and use ubuntu systems since 2007.
<SergioMeneses> I like to promote free software to any place where I also participated actively in many regional events as seen in my wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SergioMeneses  Account Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~sergiomeneses
<SergioMeneses> the team to which I belong: https://launchpad.net/~sergiomeneses/+participation
<SergioMeneses> two years ago I joined the team and recently I joined the council, I am currently in charge of part of the documentation team.
<SergioMeneses> I have participated in the Global Bug Jam in translations and bugs, the last great contribution that I will do is become a guardian on the day of the Ubuntu user: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiaDelUsuarioUbuntu
<SergioMeneses> I have used many distributions of GNU / Linux: Debian, Mandriva, fedora, gobuntu, ututo, edubuntu and more
<pedro_> and it seems you're giving a talk on the Ubuntu Users Day too, cool
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, i do
<SergioMeneses> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiaDelUsuarioUbuntu
<IngForigua> i want to cheer SergioMeneses is a member our colombian council his jod for colombia and ubuntu is awensome
<itnet7> Nice contributions!
<SergioMeneses> in Spanish
<czam> SergioMeneses he is very supportive to the community, it helps to users on IRC and mailing list...... he would be a great Ubuntu Member!!
 * IngForigua SergioMeneses RLZ
<pedro_> SergioMeneses: you joined the Ubuntu BugSquad team, any plans on joining the Ubuntu BugControl at any time soon?
<hollman> I support SergioMeneses he's very helpfull in our team and the Ubuntu Colombian council
<pedro_> (we are always looking for more help ;-))
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, still learning from the hands of a fellow andresmujica
<hollman> pedro_, thats the idea ;)
<SergioMeneses> but I like some of the bugs
<pedro_> cool! good to see that andresmujica is helping the local community to become more active on the bugsquad ;-)
<SergioMeneses> although I have some translations
<greg-g> indeed
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, yeah
<SergioMeneses> is a good element in the team
<SergioMeneses> ...The idea is to learn and help the community grow
<pedro_> +1 from here, keep up the good work SergioMeneses and hope to see you soon in the bugcontrol team :-)
<greg-g> I think the board is ready to vote...
<greg-g> +1
<pleia2> +1
<technoviking> +1
<pleia2> great work SergioMeneses!
<cody-somerville> +1
<czam> Congrats, Felicitaciones, SergioMeneses ;)
<pleia2> congrats :)
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, SergioMeneses
<SergioMeneses> thank all
<itnet7> Congratulations!
<IngForigua> Ubuntu colombia Rocks que viva colombia un miembro mas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
<SergioMeneses> gracias a todos
<hollman> urrrraaaaa SergioMeneses one more Ubuntu member on our Colombian Team
 * IngForigua envia una cerveza a SergioMeneses
<tatica1> SergioMeneses congrats!!!! Good job
<pleia2> kamusin: you're up :) please introduce yourself and provide a link to your wiki page
 * SergioMeneses i'm happy 
<kamusin> Hello everybody in this room, my name is Victor Vargas (aka kamusin)
<JuanMarquez> felicidades SergioMeneses
<kamusin> you may take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VictorVargas to see a resume  :)
<JuanMarquez> un honor tenerlo como miembro
<kamusin> Well, I have been working with Ubuntu since Hoary Hedgehog
<kamusin> passing from different flavours and colors  and I use periodically at home and work (all our servers platforms are Ubuntu inside 8) )
<kamusin> Also, I have been contributing to the Bug Squad for more than a year and I am part of the Ubuntu BugControl team
<greg-g> kamusin: I see you have giving triaging classes, how have they gone?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-21
<kamusin> was a very nice experience (first time) ..  not too much people but well..
<pedro_> kamusin: what's the status of HUUF , is that working at all?
<kamusin> yep, huuf is under an active development .. recently I added a ppa repo
<kamusin> so all these ubunteros  in this room are invited to test it :
<kamusin> huuf is an application to provide usefull information to new ubuntu users
<kamusin> when need support at forums
<greg-g> interesting
<kamusin> https://edge.launchpad.net/huuf
<kamusin> Others tasks that I have done are related to help organizing Bugdays and BugJams, making lot of bug triage and giving talks in some events around Chile, these topics were about how to triage bugs, how to participate in the ubuntu community
<cristianvirtual> I support kamusin! he's very helpfull in our team he is always helping in our irc channel and working in bugs. he has a lot of initiative to help all
<arvaro> kamusin is an active participant in the comunity, he's always teaching us and participating actively in the events...go kamusin go :)
<kamusin> hehe thank you :)
<mruiz> kamusin is an important part of Ubuntu-cl . His contributions to the BugSquad positioned him as a very good actor of the Ubuntu scene. Talking about our LoCo team, I have to say that Victor always is ready to participate in events, helping users, etc. He is a good fellow too. A big +1 from me.
<fefa> i also support kamusin he is very kind and is alway helping everybody
<pleia2> great work kamusin! :)
<pleia2> +1
<pedro_> +1
<technoviking> +1
<greg_g> +1 from me
<cody-somerville> +1
 * kamusin yai!
<pleia2> congrats and welcome, kamusin!
<pedro_> welcome aboard kamusin!
<kamusin> :D thank you so much , gracias por su apoyo!
<mruiz> yay
<pleia2> cristianvirtual: you're up, please introduce yourself and provide a link to your wiki page :)
<greg_g> congrats and welcome!
<cristianvirtual> Hi!, I'm Cristian Barahona of Ubuntu-cl's team
<cristianvirtual> you can see my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CristianBarahona
<cristianvirtual> and my launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~cristianvirtual
<cristianvirtual> Write english is not one of my strengths, so excuseme if I write slowly or not very well.
<cristianvirtual> I'm Software Engineer, I have my own company (we are 5 peoples). We develop software for callcenters with Asterisk and Python, and of course, Ubuntu server.
<cristianvirtual> I'm a Ubuntu user since 2005 and I have been participating with the Chilean LoCo Team since 2008
<cristianvirtual> Now I'm part of the Chilean LoCo Council and its LocoContact
<cristianvirtual> You can find me every day on #ubuntu-cl and taking part of the discussions and plans in our mailing list.
<cristianvirtual> I'm working in Ubuntu-cl like administrator of the Ubuntu-cl Planet, administrating the web site wich is hosted by myself, I also participate giving talks in some events in diferents cities of Chile.
<cristianvirtual> and ofcourse, always help in the marketing team
<mruiz> Cristian represents in a good way the Ubuntu philosophy. He has been an important part of our community, always facing new challenges and responsibilities within our LoCo Team.
<cristianvirtual> and participating in stands in diferents events
<arvaro> cristianvirtual is always working in the community with a big smile, helping the new ones and giving talks in many places, as i said before, always with a big smile
<mruiz> As Ubuntu Member, I think that Cristian would be a good example to follow in our country. He can help us to spread the word about Ubuntu, Linux, Free Software and Open Source. Also as a former LoCo contact, I have to say that Cristian is doing a very good job.
 * IngForigua suport cristianvirtual
<fefa> i support 100% cristianvirtual he is very helpfull in the comunity always giving great ideas and working to making true:)
<cristianvirtual> wow thanks all
<kamusin> I know and fully support cristianvirtual , he is very pro active and so entusiast. I stole his idea to made an application to help new users (huuf), but I improved his initial idea and internationalized a litle bit
<cody-somerville> fefa, Are you a Ubuntu member yourself?
<fefa> actually im not, i participate in ubuntu-cl in marketing
<pleia2> great work (and great intro and wiki page!)
<pleia2> +1 from me
<greg_g> +1 here, too.
<cody-somerville> +1
<technoviking> +1
<pedro_> +1 from here too
<cristianvirtual> :)
<pleia2> congrats!
<pedro_> congrats cristianvirtual!
<greg_g> Congrats and welcome, cristianvirtual!
<itnet7> Very good work cristianvirtual ! Congratulations
<kamusin> congrats cristianvirtual ! arggggggggg
<cristianvirtual> hey, now I really have a big smile! :D
<IngForigua> Bienvenido cristianvirtual que vivan los hispanohablantes :D
<mruiz> \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/
<cristianvirtual> gracias IngForigua
<mruiz> 2 chilean ubuntu members !
<kamusin> seh!
<alucardi> Wow, esta reuniÃ³n debiÃ³ ser en espaÃ±ol
<mruiz> claro
<zehrique> alucardi: lol
<IngForigua> jajajajajajaja
<SergioMeneses> cristianvirtual, wellcome
<zehrique> Wellcome, cristianvirtual!
<pleia2> jamalta_: you're up, please introduce yourself and provide a link to your wiki page
<IngForigua> Si toca que sea en espaÃ±ol :D
<cristianvirtual> thanks :D
<jamalta_> My name is Jamal Fanaian. I'm from Florida. I am a web developer working for an entertainment company. I started using Linux to manage my servers a few years ago, and started using Ubuntu full-time around the 7.10 release. I am a member of the Ubuntu Florida LoCo where I try to attend and help out with events in the Florida area. On top of that, I try to contribute by offering my skills to open source projects. I have be
<jamalta_> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/jamalta
<jamalta_> ...geist project and will be working with them to help integrate their engine with the web. I am also starting an open source project called Pandamon to do live video streaming. I am also an instructor for Ubuntu User Days coming up in just a few days. I am also hoping to become more active with the Ubuntu Learning project to help the Ubuntu user base grow.
<itnet7> Want to pitch my 2 Â¢ for jamalta
<pleia2> woohoo learning project :)
<itnet7> Jamal is a great member of the Florida Team. He has done some really good development work, and has always been willing to give a hand whenever asked. He is a quick study, and has been very dedicated to Ubuntu and our LoCo. He is the epitome of what helps to make the Florida Team a success.
<jamalta_> itnet7: thank you :)
<itnet7> jamalta_: you deserve it
<itnet7> We have had meetups where he has mentored beginners to triaging and Launchpad use
<pleia2> cool
<greg_g> good deal, I'm always partial to bug work :)
<pleia2> jamalta_: after user days think you'll be able to contribute writing some courses for the learning team?
<jamalta_> That's a great idea, actually, that's something I'd love to do
<pleia2> glad to hear it :)
<pleia2> +1 from me
<technoviking> +1 here
<pedro_> +1 great work jamalta!
<greg_g> +1 from me, great work and great testimonials
<nixternal> +1
<nixternal> :)
<pleia2> haha
<greg_g> haha
<pleia2> nice timing nixternal :P
<jamalta_> thank you so much
<jamalta_> lol
<itnet7> Congratulations jamalta_ !!
<jamalta_> :D
<jamalta_> thank you so much everyone
<cody-somerville> +1 :)
<greg_g> congrats and welcome, jamalta_!
<itnet7> Well... sorry should have waited for cody-somerville
<jamalta_> greg_g thanks! :)
<nixternal> congrats and welcome jamalta_ \o/
<pleia2> congrats and welcome jamalta_!
<jamalta_> thanks to everyone who voted, and thank you to everyone who cared to write about me
<pleia2> ok, that wraps things up for the evening
<jamalta_> :)
<pleia2> thanks everyone, congrats to the new members :)
<jamalta_> pleia2: thanks
<greg_g> thanks for coming out, everyone. Another great selection of contributors, welcome aboard new members!
<pedro_> thanks all for attending :-)
<zehrique> Congrats for all the new members! :)
<itnet7> Thanks for hanging in there everyone! Good job to all the new members!!! Congrats
<alucardi> thanks and congrats to all!!
<cristianvirtual> thanks :)
<Iowan> Thanks for the opportunity!
<greg_g> 8 new members! crazy!
<pleia2> 7 ;)
<IngForigua> La mayoria hispanohablantes
<IngForigua> :D
<IngForigua> 5 hispanohablantes :D
<greg_g> yeah yeah, 7 :)
<pleia2> hehe
<jamalta_> hey, yo ablo espaÃ±ol tambien ;)
<jamalta_> pero vivo en EU
<alucardi> the Ubuntu planet will be very latinamerican the next days jejeje
<greg_g> alucardi: indeed, deservedly.
<Iowan> Kinda hate to leave, but guess it's time to get back to work...
<SergioMeneses> okay people
<SergioMeneses> i seeyou later
<kamusin> see you!
<ulysses> good night
<daskreech> hi ulysses
<jussi01> o/
 * Quintasan waves to jussi01
<jussi01> heya Quintasan
<jussi01> meeting in 3 mins, no?
<Quintasan> yeah
<ScottK> o/
<tomplast> Exiting guys, my first Kubunt meeting ;). Losing the Kubuntu-Meeting-Virginity istheshit ;)
<Riddell> good evening friends
<jjesse> tomplast: its not that cool :)
<ScottK> Someone have the agenda?
<Nightrose> heya folks :)
<Riddell> seele, apachelogger, JontheEchidna  council ping
<neversfelde> good evening
 * Nightrose gets some tea
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<apachelogger> ahoy!
<seele> pong
<Riddell> ooh, council quota
<JontheEchidna> hi there
<dhillon-v10> hi all :)
<jussi01> o/ again
<Riddell> anyone here for membership?
<Quintasan> \o
<jussi01> me, oh wait, that was last time :P
<Riddell> then apachelogger has an agenda item
<apachelogger> right
<apachelogger> recently it was suggested that the council gets a mailing list people can write to when they need to communicate with the whole council (privately)
<apachelogger> any thoughts on that?
<jussi01> are you going to use mootbot?
<Riddell> do we have such cases?
 * ScottK thinks all the council members have public email addresses.
<seele> apachelogger: +1
<ScottK> In the unlikely need, they can be reached.
<seele> ScottK: no, the issue is we need a mailing list so it is easier to contact everyone rather than put 5 people in an email
<jussi01> Well, if I may comment, I had ones such case recently, and it doesnt have any real overhead, but creates an official point of contact for the council
<apachelogger> ScottK: then you need to aggregate addies of all members
<jussi01> as per other councils within k/ubuntu
<jjesse> is there a kubuntu-council team in LP and does the contact this team go to all members?
<jjesse> or just one person
<jjesse> becaue if it went to all members problem would be solved
<apachelogger> jjesse: should go to all members
<apachelogger> but replies will need manual adding of addresses again
<ScottK> apachelogger: If something is so critical it really needs private attention of the whole KC, then I think googling for some email addresses is not a significant barrier.
<Quintasan> +1 from me, it will make easier to contact the whole council
 * Nightrose has to agree with ScottK
 * neversfelde too
<ScottK> -1 from me.  Stinks of bureacracy.
<Nightrose> but then again I don't really care of we have one
<jussi01> I would say why not? there no real overhead, and it makes things easier?
<Nightrose> it's just hopefully not needed enough to actually be useful
<apachelogger> jussi01: I would not say that
<apachelogger> either it is a moderated list, which creates moderation overhead
<apachelogger> or it is not moderated and creates spam overhead
<apachelogger> I personally do not feel that it is necessary at this point, so both overheads would not be worth it
<dhillon-v10> apachelogger: If I may say, won't moderation create more work, now that people can easily access the entire council there would be more email that are unnecessary and maybe spam too
 * jussi01 would like a unified way to contact the council if needed. 
<Riddell> there is a Contact this Team link on the team page which I think should be enough
<jjesse> +1 to Riddell
<apachelogger> jussi01: what Riddell wrote ;)
<maco> Riddell: how does "reply to all" work for that?
<JontheEchidna> +1 for "contact this team"
<apachelogger> maco: does not
<maco> apachelogger: thats what i thought
<apachelogger> so the council members will have to take care of that
<JontheEchidna> ah, then it's not much of a listr
<JontheEchidna> *list
<JontheEchidna> shouldn't be too hard to CC all council members in your responses
<apachelogger> well
<Nightrose> all the council members are able to edit a CC list no?
<Nightrose> ;-)
<JontheEchidna> yeah
<apachelogger> council members could setup lists in kaddressbook for simplifcation :P
<Riddell> seele: happy with that?
<Nightrose> can we go on with more useful stuff?
<seele> sure
<Riddell> JontheEchidna has an item
<apachelogger> also, if a topic is not really private it might just as well be replied to with CC to kubuntu-devel
<JontheEchidna> yeah, speedcrunch vs kcalc
<JontheEchidna> Currently we're in a bit of a crunch for livecd space
<Riddell> kcalc has no use history, this is a major problem for me
<JontheEchidna> use history?
<apachelogger> most physical calculators don't
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: stuff you entered shown
<JontheEchidna> oh
<Riddell> so you can see what your previous use was
<Riddell> kcalc has better translations though, that's important
<apachelogger> also
<apachelogger> kcalc goes through rosetta :P
<nixternal> hola
<Nightrose> JontheEchidna: would it save a lot of space to switch?
<Nightrose> yo nixternal
<Quintasan> nixternal: \o
<JontheEchidna> It would save ~300 kb on livecd space
<apachelogger> also, kcalc's translations are part of the langpacks anyway
<apachelogger> so we have the kcalc translations on board + speedcrunch's own translations
<JontheEchidna> not too much on its own, but if we take several 100 kb's here and there we're on our way to having everythign fit
<Nightrose> yea
<Nightrose> anything else that is meh in kcalc besides history?
<JontheEchidna> I looked in to packaging the math books that speedcrunch includes separately, but that only saved somewhere between 60-80 kb
<apachelogger> no, and I again want to mention that most calcs do not have a history :P
<ScottK> I agree speedcrunch is fancier, but for a basic calculator, kcalc seems fine.
 * txwikinger says sorry for being late
<Nightrose> apachelogger: heh yea agreed
 * ulysses uses a Casio fx-220 calculator:\
<Nightrose> i just don't use either of them enough to make a good decision so asking
 * ScottK throws out the idea of neither
<Nightrose> i mostly use krunner
<nixternal> krunner works for a basic calculator
<ScottK> We have a calculator widget + krunner already
<maco> how discoverable is krunner?
<Nightrose> good point
<ScottK> Aren't they enough?
<nixternal> maco: alt+f2
<nixternal> ;p
<JontheEchidna> if krunner is undiscoverable, then the calculator plasmoid is more discoverable
<maco> nixternal: yes yes, but who knows to hit alt+f2 to find the calculator?
<apachelogger> krunner is no good for an argument
<agateau> nixternal: and don't forget the '=' :/
<nixternal> pull the calculators, for the next 2 or 3 releases, and see how many complaints you get
<jussi01> krunner does sums? o.O
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: still would you be looking for it there
<Quintasan> jussi01: :D
 * ScottK thinks kcalc is definitely enough for the default, but would be fine with just the widget.
<maco> jussi01: yes, that too. i had no idea it could
<apachelogger> esp since the most visible search (the one in kickoff) does not include plasmoids
 * maco uses google for math
<Quintasan> ScottK: +1
<JontheEchidna> add a menu entry for "plasmoidviewer calculator"? :P
<Nightrose> +1
<jussi01> ScottK: +1
 * agateau finds krunner more reliable for math than for starting apps :/
<Lex79> I like calculator plasmoid
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: :P
<JontheEchidna> +1 for ScottK's proposal
<maco> agateau: O_o
 * jjesse uses the calculator on my phone
<apachelogger> agateau: I think the krunner implementation still got some weird float bug :P
<apachelogger> float + division that is
<agateau> apachelogger: good enough for me, I'm an engineer, not a scientist :)
<JontheEchidna> poor qtscript, being abused by the calculator runner ;_;
<JontheEchidna> agateau: dividing integers can trigger this bug :/
 * apachelogger only calculates via irb :P
<Quintasan> krunner got sin(), awesome
 * ScottK just polled the two teenage Kubuntu users in the house.
<Nightrose> result?
<ScottK> One doesnt' use a calculator and the other finds the history annoying.
<agateau> JontheEchidna: oh
<Nightrose> haha
<Quintasan> :D
<apachelogger> I suppose we don't need a vote then :P
<agateau> :D
<jussi01> :D
<Nightrose> apachelogger: well we still need one on none or kcalc
<JontheEchidna> Having a non-plasma calculator app should be considered, since this is an LTS
<apachelogger> *nod*
<JontheEchidna> (less of a radical change from the status quo)
<nixternal> http://www.gimmees.com/detail~pnum~7291~pcategory~12~psubcategory~2.asp <- there is my calculator :)
<maco> less of a need for new users to go find out what the heck plasma is and how to add widgets...and with the possibility of closing the calculator app when you're done with it
<Nightrose> so vote on switching to kcalc please
<apachelogger> who's in favor of shipping kcalc for 10.04? (with possible option of dropping it later in favor of the plasmoid)
<seele> +1 kcalc, 1 feature doesn't seem to be a showstopper on this
<JontheEchidna> +1 shipping kcalc
<apachelogger> +1
<seele> for people who know of and really want speedcrunch, they can just install it
<neversfelde> +1
<Nightrose> +1
<jussi01> +1
<nixternal> go with kcalc, we don't need to ship anymore plasmoids by default...let the users pick the plasmoids they want
<Lex79> +1
<tomplast> +1
<Riddell> a decision!
<Nightrose> \o/
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: please do the switching :)
<JontheEchidna> apachelogger: I can't push to the seed branch :(
<apachelogger> omg
 * apachelogger is going to do the switching then
<JontheEchidna> thx
<Riddell> "Ubuntu IRC Council for channel domination?"
<maco> whatwhat?
<Riddell> the Ubuntu IRC Council want some permissions on #kubuntu-devel
<jussi01> Right then...
<maco> like, to be on the access list?
 * apachelogger thinks that apachelogger also needs permissions :P
<Nightrose> reasons for that?
<JontheEchidna> just as a heads up, in 10 minutes I may have to leave.
<jjesse> is there no one from ubuntu irc channel who is already a kbuntu-devel member?
<nixternal> just give it to them and be done with it
<JontheEchidna> yeah, no reason why they shouldn't have access that I can see
<ScottK> Are we solving an actual problem here?
<nixternal> ScottK: no
 * Nightrose isn't so sure she likes it
<Riddell> the history is that I registered as channel contact for the #kubuntu namespace
<jussi01> Yeah, as the main devel chans are part of our LP import, and we are the group contacts for k/xUbuntu we need a +f for that.
<nixternal> that's why I said, just give it to them and be done with it...I would keep Riddell though as the #1 power on the channel
<Riddell> and apparantly ubuntu irc channel usurped me whenever they got setup without me knowing
<apachelogger> yeah, dont hand it over completely ;)
<jussi01> it isnt that we are going to come in and make changes to the channel.
 * jjesse never understood the need for ubuntu-irc-council but whatever
<Riddell> the ubuntu irc channel is however quite kubuntu happy
<nixternal> I think there are better agenda items to cover :)
<apachelogger> +1
<seele> i dont understand why the ubuntu irc council needs to own our channel, but whatever
<Nightrose> i still don't get the actual reason
<seele> it sounds like something we dont have a choice on
<ScottK> seele: Then don't vote.  Let them just do it.
<JontheEchidna> I believe I'll abstain, I don't feel that my opinion is strong enough to be useful in any way
<nixternal> it will happen anyways, as if it doesn't, it will more than likely escalate to the CC...they need to have +f like jussi01 said for their new way of doing things
<seele> aye +0 from me
<nixternal> the IRCC is solid, no worries
<Riddell> because the ubuntu irc council likes to own all IRC channels so when there's an IRC problem anywhere everyone knows who can solve it
<seele> that sounds like a community issue, not irc issue
<seele> if we have technical problems or problems with lurkers/spammers, dont we usually contact a freenode op?
 * Nightrose is -1 on this one without a good explanation sorry
<Nightrose> i won't be a pita about it but...
<apachelogger> well, there is a point to that
<JontheEchidna> maybe we should just defer this item?
<nixternal> Nightrose: it will just go to the CC eventually and it will happen anyways, I say keep Riddell in power, give them what they need for their LP and bot stuff
<apachelogger> and indeed that is more social than technical
<Riddell> jussi01: got a good explanation for Nightrose?
<apachelogger> other councils going around establishing policies and specs and whatnot that affect us, without talking to us beforehand is no good
<Nightrose> right
<jussi01> 1 moment
<apachelogger> and then coming to us saying "uhm, but we need that" is not what I call good inter-council communication
<JontheEchidna> I think we could benefit from having this discussed on the mailing list, so that we have time to absorb/think about it. This is the first I've heard of this, and I don't think I can make a good decision on the quick 2-minute explanation given while the meeting is going on.
<nixternal> apachelogger: I agree, but it is something that is going on with every #*ubuntu-* namespace... tsimpson and jussi01 could explain it better though
<jussi01> The ircc are the group contacts for the KXUbuntu-* channels. We are currently re-organising how the main channels are administered, - you can see more from tsimpsons blog about how it works: http://tsimpson.ubottu.com/blog/archives/3
<Quintasan> I don't really get the idea of another irc channel but I agree with JontheEchidna
<apachelogger> Everone in favor of postponing and discussing this on the mailing list +1 now
<Nightrose> +1
<apachelogger> +1
<nixternal> it's an IRC channel, it isn't like we are giving them access to ~kubuntu-devel so they can upload packages
<tomplast> +1
<seele> +1 postpone
<jussi01> We do have the power to just go and add ourselves to the access list if we feel necessary, but we dont do that except in case of emergencies. we prefer to go to the channel contact and ask.
<JontheEchidna> +1
<neversfelde> +1
<Riddell> postponed then
<apachelogger> ok
<Riddell> agateau wants to talk about "DBusMenu and applications getting creative with tray menus"
<Nightrose> jussi01: don't get me wrong i am not mistrusting you personally ;-)
<agateau> ok
<apachelogger> jussi01: please start a thread on the ml with some information
<jussi01> sure
<apachelogger> thx
<agateau> is everyone familiar with dbusmenu, or should I do a quick summary?
<seele> summary pls
<agateau> ok
 * Nightrose would like a quick summary
<agateau> so you heard about the new systemtray
<agateau> which landed in KDE 4.3
<agateau> it let applications expose their tray icons over dbus
<agateau> and then the systemtray applet is in charge of drawing them
<agateau> this is a change from the old method, where the app would draw directly inside the applet
<agateau> dbusmenu is the next step
<agateau> right now when a user right click on a systemtray icon,
<agateau> plasma tells the app: please show a menu over this icon
<agateau> this means a kde app will show a kde menu
<agateau> a gnome app would show a gnome menu
<agateau> the idea behind dbusmenu is to change this part
<agateau> let the app expose over dbus its menu
<agateau> so that the systemtray can show it
<agateau> this way gnome and kde apps are shown in a consistent way
<Nightrose> meaning?
<JontheEchidna> clicking on gnomey tray icons will have a kde-ish context menu
<Quintasan> it doesn't look like crap?
<agateau> a gnome app running on a kde desktop would get a kde menu
<agateau> and vice versa
<Nightrose> ok
<agateau> this work has been started by Canonical but as also been discussed and agreed with Aaron Seigo and Marco Martin
<agateau> problem arise when apps start to embed widgets in their menu
<agateau> because we can't pass widgets in dbus
<agateau> most outstanding example:
<agateau> kopete
<agateau> http://imagebin.ca/view/WUneYGbp.html
<JontheEchidna> knetworkmanager does this too
<agateau> JontheEchidna: true
<agateau> but for knetworkmanager we may go back to the applet at some point?
<Nightrose> agateau: what happens if you use the new method then?
<agateau> for now: you get a blank menu item :/
<JontheEchidna> yeah, once the applet shapes up we plan on turning back
<Riddell> I haven't seen any signs of the networkmanager plasmoid re-appearing
 * Nightrose neither
<agateau> oh
<Riddell> and currently right click on knetworkmanager is not in good shape
<agateau> I thought Sebas was on this
<agateau> mmm I guess so
<Riddell> asking on #k-d
<agateau> so we can either: distro-patch apps to use standard items
<tomplast> Do we need to change all softwares which embeds widgets in their context menu? Sorry if asking stupid question?
<Lex79> it seems there are problems with kmix too
<agateau> or add a mechanism for weird menu apps to not use dbusmenu
<agateau> tomplast: I only found Kopete to be a problem
<apachelogger> this should be implemented upstream?
<apachelogger> should be fixed upstream
<apachelogger> ?
<Nightrose> this sounds like a non-good idea to me for an LTS tbh
<apachelogger> work worked around usptream for that matter
<jjesse> +1 Nightrose
<agateau> apachelogger: work is going on upstream right now: I work on a branch of kdesvn
<apachelogger> no no, I mean that maintaining this as any kind of patch is a bad idea IMHO
<agateau> but we agreed at UDS to include dbusmenu in Kubuntu Lucid
<agateau> apachelogger: what do you mean with "this": dbusmenu or apps patches?
 * Lure is a bit late
<apachelogger> both really
<Riddell> agateau: how hard is it just to turn off dbus menu for knetworkmanager and kopete?
<apachelogger> well, I do not know what the dbusmenu patch looks like ;)
<Riddell> agateau: I notice klipper doesn't use it, why is that?
<JontheEchidna> Riddell: currently in lucid it has no adverse effects for knetworkmanager
<agateau> Riddell: it has not yet been ported to KStatusNotifierItem
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: right click -> top menu item doesn't work
<Riddell> agateau: ah right
<daskreech> Is there a timeline for the port?
<agateau> Riddell: we could add a minimal api to avoid dbusmenu in specific cases
<JontheEchidna> knetworkmanager still has the normal tray menu for me
<JontheEchidna> oh, that's left click
<JontheEchidna> but the top level item not working is a problem with all dbusmenu items
<agateau> All dbusmenu rendered menu right now uses some kind of Plasma theming
<agateau> which I believe I will revert because it causes more inconsistency
<apachelogger> agateau: if that API would have to be in kdelibs then we would have to continue patching until KDE 5
<agateau> JontheEchidna: yes, support for titles didn't make it in alpha2
<apachelogger> otherwise we violate all sorts of packaging policies
<JontheEchidna> apachelogger: the API is going upstream for 4.5
<agateau> apachelogger: indeed, unless we get it to be accepted upstream
<agateau> right now upstream is quite supportive of this
<apachelogger> one thing I learned about that: get it accepted and applied upstream before adding new API
<apachelogger> better save than sorry :)
<agateau> apachelogger: I would never suggest extending kdelibs API without upstream authorisation
<apachelogger> kk
<Riddell> yeah we had a meeting with plasma guys, it's long since been agreed on
<daskreech> If it's In KDE 4.5 we get it for free in 10.10 ?
<agateau> daskreech: yup
 * JontheEchidna notes that now trunk is open there is still a lot of time to get the new API in before lucid's release
<daskreech> What's the benefit of having Kubuntu Ship it now then ?
<apachelogger> which is why I think that patching is a bad idea alltogehter since we need to support the patches for LTS time frame
<agateau> daskreech: GNOME apps are being ported to this for LTS
<daskreech> Ship It I made a pun :)
<JontheEchidna> as long as agateau is getting paid to do so and I don't have to do anything, I don't see a problem :P
<daskreech> agateau: Ah ok is there a list of those apps?
<agateau> daskreech: I can try to dig it, but I don't have it at end right now
 * apachelogger thinks that should be discussed on the list
<JontheEchidna> (irt maintaining the patches)
<agateau> daskreech: but if you follow jono blog you can find he is all excited about something called application indicators
<daskreech> Right. I saw
<agateau> which are GNOME version of our new system tray
<agateau> so all apps using libappindicator will need dbusmenu support
<apachelogger> ah, there is no fallback?
<Riddell> [off topic] libappindicator is a terrible name
<apachelogger> :D
<ScottK> I think we need to make it clear what was done at UDS and already approved and what new changes agateau is asking for.
<JontheEchidna> Lemme think of a proper gnomey name for it...
<agateau> apachelogger: it falls back to the old method (x-embed) if there is no StatusNotifier tray
<Nightrose> it is...
<ScottK> We should not go back and revist what was already agreed.
 * apachelogger is wondering how that dep on dbusmenu support works out on tray implementations other than KDE 4.4/Ubuntu GNOME
<JontheEchidna> lib.... gorantino..... :D
<apachelogger> agateau: ah, ok
<Nightrose> JontheEchidna!!!
<Nightrose> :D
<agateau> apachelogger: it just do not handle the case where you have StatusNotifier but no dbusmenu
<agateau> so do we agree on discussing with upstream to add a way for apps to turn off dbusmenu?
<apachelogger> anyway
<ScottK> Which, modulo bugs, should not happen.
<apachelogger> +1 on API enhancement discussion
<JontheEchidna> +1
 * agateau would have to convince his colleagues to add support for this to GNOME as well :)
<apachelogger> if that turns out to be a dead end we can always discuss again
<agateau> ok
<seele> +1 discussing
<apachelogger> agateau: promise them cookies, that always does the trick ;)
<seele> really, there's no reason not to talk to them
 * agateau adds the cookies idea to his trick list
<jjesse> i like cookies
<Riddell> agateau: why is knetworkmanager different on left click and right click anyway?
<jjesse> chocalate chip please
<agateau> Riddell: need to investigate this
<agateau> as in: starting a machine running knetworkmanager
 * daskreech looks up from his plate of Choccy Kookies
<maco> Riddell: for the sillies
<Riddell> next item?
 * tomplast wonder why he hasn't bought any cookies
<Riddell> tomplast has an item
<daskreech> tomplast wants to discuss mobile broadband
<Riddell> tomplast: go ahead
<tomplast> Yeah, I am myself a mobile broadband user and right now it's a pain in cookie jar to get it working.
<Riddell> we're at the mercy of upstream with that
<JontheEchidna> Realistically, I think the best/only thing we can do is throw ourselves at the mercy of the KDE NetworkMangement team to fix the bugs
<tomplast> In Ubuntu I only need to use usb_modeswitch and then use the guide which helps me configuring my connection. In Kubuntu there's no such guide.
<jjesse> by guide are you talking about document?
<tomplast> sorry
<tomplast> wizard
<tomplast> I meant
<Riddell> yeah gnome network manager is quite nice for this
<Riddell> knetworkmanager is lacking it
<Riddell> it needs someone to code it
<Riddell> volunteers welcome I'm sure
<tomplast> Hehe, I have though on start coding again for a while now ;).
<tomplast> tought
<tomplast> thought
<Riddell> otherwise we can document ways to get it working but I think the top one would be "install gnome network manager"
<maco> thats a sucky top suggestion
<JontheEchidna> I don't think there's any way we can "meeting" this problem to a satisfiable resolution, personally
<Nightrose> it is but the best one we have atm
<maco> i mean, from the perspective of "kde should work"
<daskreech> what would be required to get it working by LTS ship date?
<tomplast> usb_modeswitch isn't included on the cd right?
<Nightrose> tomplast: if you want to code talk to sebas and see what you can do
<Riddell> maco: right, but it's an upstream issue
<tomplast> Okay, I'll.
<Nightrose> cool
<Riddell> usb-modeswitch is in universe, it's not on any CD
<seele> what does it do?
<Riddell> flip flops apparantly
<seele> flip flops what?
<Riddell> tomplast: do you know what it does?
<tomplast> Yeah sorta. I think it someone switches on and off the modem functionality.
<tomplast> somehow
<tomplast> Because it's not activate from the beginning. So each time you connect the modem to the computer you need to flipflop it to activate the modem functionality.
<tomplast> Sorry for the bad explaination :p
<Riddell> apt-cache show usb-modeswitch   that's quite interesting actually
<Riddell> devices by default are storage, they include the windows drivers which windows installs then tells it to switch to a serial device
<Quintasan> hmm dirty hack but under windoze it does it's job
<Riddell> however the main issue is upstream knetworkmanager, I'll ask Bille what the status is
<Riddell> next item?
<ScottK> SIze 29732.  I'd say we should have it in any case
<Riddell> ScottK: without a UI?
<ScottK> Riddell: Yes on the theory that I'd like to ship all the bits needed to get online, even if it's a bit tricky to do so.
<Riddell> ScottK: fancy doing the MIR?
 * ScottK was thinking he'd supervies tomplast doing a MIR
<Riddell> tomplast: ok with you?
<tomplast> Yeah if i knew what a MIR was *embarrased*. I'm very new to all this stuff.
<Riddell> ScottK will tech you all
<daskreech> tomplast: It requires lotion
<Riddell> do join us in #kubuntu-devel
<daskreech> Just saying
<maco> tomplast: Main Inclusion Request. its what gets the package from universe to main
<maco> tomplast: only stuff in Main gets on CDs
<ScottK> tomplast: Ping me later.  It's not too bad.
<Riddell> next item is "IRC client deathmatch?"
<nixternal> ship irssi and be done with it :p
<Riddell> at UDS we said we'd decide IRC client at around this time
 * maco puts quassel's gloves on
<maco> :P
<Riddell> I'm not sure things have changed much since last release
<JontheEchidna> Konversation has notifieritem support and is planning a release to coincide with KDE 4.4
<nixternal> which is the best right now?
<Lure> h
<jjesse> are we really going to make our users learn a new client every release?
<JontheEchidna> that's pretty much the biggest parts about what has changed in konversationland
<nixternal> never heard of h Lure :)
<Riddell> I still prefer Konversation because of its a kent name
<nixternal> jjesse: sounds like it :p
<tomplast> Quassel has this annoying bug where it doesnt get's a systray icon and you accidently close it all the time *grrr*. I prefer  Konversation.
<neversfelde> do we really consider to change an important default application when preparing for a LTS release? :(
<JontheEchidna> jjesse: compared to the last LTS and every release until 9.04, konversation was default
<nixternal> as long as they do it early enough this time to get documented
<agateau> jjesse: quassel was the default for two releases iirc
<Riddell> Konversation also uses normal translations
<jjesse> +1 nixternal
<jjesse> it just seems we have this debate every release
<ScottK> tomplast: I have never, ever seen that.
<jjesse> and i do mean every
<Quintasan> Having used both: +1 for Konv.
<JontheEchidna> Konversation also has more translations (26 at the time of 1.2.0)
<JontheEchidna> 26 languages, that is
<ScottK> Quassel is moving to gettext in this cycle.
<jjesse> yay for 26 translations :)
<ScottK> It already has more than it did for Karmic.
<Nightrose> +1 quassel
<ScottK> dpm has been helping them out with the transition.
<tomplast> +1 konversation.
<jjesse> +1 to stick w/ what we are using
<JontheEchidna> +1 konversation
<neversfelde> +1 quassel
<Lex79> +1 quassel
<seele> i havent used the new konversation so i abstain
<nixternal> oh lord, this seems a bit split, though I think quassel just took the lead
<daskreech> +1 xchat
 * daskreech flees
<agateau> +1 konversation
<tomplast> :p
<seele> technically i think only the council votes matter, although we take in to consideration other members' opinions
<ScottK> I think it's too early in the cycle to decide
<nixternal> konversation making a comeback
 * Quintasan gets his rifle and shoots daskreech in the back
<jjesse> ScottK: it can't be too late in the cycle to make sure we document the switch if any
<ScottK> True
<ScottK> I think today we should decide when we are going to decide.
 * JontheEchidna notes that last cycle, beta was too late to document any switch
<nixternal> you have until Feb 16, and definitely have it in by Mar. 4
<nixternal> if it isn't in by Mar 4. Quassel will be the documented client
<nixternal> I would go as far as Mar 11 though
<apachelogger> +1 quassel ... sho did not bribe me into voting for konvi even though I told him so!
<daskreech> Riddell: deathmatch shootout is a mexican standoff
 * Daviey wonders if Quassel will get a console based client.
<nixternal> that's what irssi is for
<ScottK> Someone is working on it.
<Riddell> if I'm +1 for konversation that makes the council evenly matched and seele has the deciding vote
<Riddell> gosh
<seele> well like i said, i havent seen konversation in about a year
<daskreech> Go for the kent name :)
<seele> so i abstain for the time being
<nixternal> how about an "IRC Installer" like the firefox one...have it provide marketing type info on each client and let the user choose?
<Quintasan> oh noes
<ScottK> Revisit at the next meeting aftter people have had a chance to look.
<maco> kent name? is this something scottish?
<seele> there is no need for the user to choose an irc client
<daskreech> Can we get a communal list of pros and cons while seele test konvi out in it's new clothes ?
<apachelogger> daskreech: nope
<apachelogger> pros and cons are always biased :P
<seele> daskreech: i'm not looking at it this second if that's wha tyou mean
<ScottK> Last time we tried that it was pretty slanted.
<JontheEchidna> Quassel only has 8 substantial translations. Konversation has over 20. If we're at all committed to having translated apps by default we should choose Konversation
<daskreech> apachelogger: I do't see how that's any different from +1 from a person
<daskreech> same biases just laid out on paper
<nixternal> here, I don't use either client, I can do a review and give pros/cons
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: Did you check upstream or what's in Lucid right now?
 * ScottK didn't upload a git snapshot yet.
<Tm_T> I use neither, but I say Konversation just because of translations
<JontheEchidna> ScottK: that's based off of what's in karmic
<JontheEchidna> for konversation
<JontheEchidna> I based quassel's off of what's in lucid
<JontheEchidna> but konversation still wins :P
<apachelogger> daskreech: comparing software with pros and cons does almost never match what matters for the target audience and ends in a who-can-pull-out-more-stuff-out-their-nose
<ScottK> For Quassel it's gone up with what's upstream.
<ScottK> I think that both meet the need of a basic IRC client for user support.
<Quintasan> apachelogger: I lol'd  +1
<ScottK> That's why we ship an IRC client.
<ScottK> After that it's a matter of taste.
<daskreech> apachelogger: Ok fine :) I would have hoped it would be with a view as to what's best for users/maintainers but if it's that heated then fine :)
<tomplast> Btw, how many of the new users uses irc?
<Riddell> which is why I come down to the superficial issue of using a name that more people know
<apachelogger> daskreech: that implies that we first spend a couple of hours outlining what the user needs and wants :P
<tomplast> That many to justify including an irc client on the cd?
<seele> daskreech: voting and pros cons are not the same
<daskreech> tomplast: Surprisingly how easy it's possible to get into the #kubuntu room for help matters.
<Quintasan> and in the end we are mistaken, aren't we apachelogger? :D
 * Lure think we should decide on the space - as we need some more ;-)
<apachelogger> Quintasan: of course we are
 * ScottK thought at UDS we said not to change without good reason.
<daskreech> tomplast: The number of people who login and say what is this for is pretty high considering and it is very useful
<Lure> ScottK: +1
<Riddell> well let's postpone and see if there's pressing reasons next meeting
<daskreech> seele: I see that
<nixternal> quassel > konversation on popcon by a decent majority...though those stats aren't all that precise
<JontheEchidna> well of course quassel is higher. It's the default client :P
<nixternal> JontheEchidna: not looking at installs, looking at votes
<Lure> we should have good reason - for me better kde intergation and transaltions are good reasons for considerations
<Riddell> Quintasan: has an item
<ScottK> Quassel's translations are moving to gettext, so that makes a smaller binary (translation in language packs) and more translations
<Quintasan> two actually but, well
<Quintasan> So it was mentioned few hours ago that kimpanel widget will have ibus backend
<Quintasan> Now if (I'm running Konv) you click right on the text field and go to Select input method you will see probably XIM being selected.
<JontheEchidna> I can see that
<Quintasan> I couldn't get XIM to work with japanese or korean input. But if you install ibus and anthy then it works
<Quintasan> but you need to select Ibus manually then
<jussi01> is there a compelling reason to change - we have now had quassel for a few releases and I personally havent seen any major complaints.
<nixternal> bug 475530 is interesting concerning kimpanel
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 475530 in kdeplasma-addons "KIMPanel is unusable in Kubuntu 9.10" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/475530
<nixternal> and according to comments, it is still unusable in Lucid
<JontheEchidna> nixternal: upstream is not installing the ibus backend, it turns out
<Quintasan> I tried asking Qt guys where the default IM settings are stored but I got no response ( I swear I will go there and poke their eyes out)
<JontheEchidna> the author figures that since it's a python script it can go anywhere, and that he doesn't need to worry about installing it
<Riddell> Quintasan: I tried asking too, also no answer from my usual Qt contacts
<seele> (brb)
<Quintasan> IMO there are two solutions to this
<Quintasan> freeflying proposed patching language selector to install ibus and anthy-ibus (for japanese)
<JontheEchidna> ^the issue of kimpanel not installing its ibus backend would still have to be solved?
<Quintasan> yeah
<JontheEchidna> kk
<Quintasan> OR we could find a way to set IBus as a default IM for Qt
<Quintasan> But I do not know where to begin
<JontheEchidna> would either issue hinge on a working kimpanel widget?
<JontheEchidna> s/either issue/both solutions
<Riddell> ibus should get installed by language-support-xx I thought
<Quintasan> hmm, sounds better
<Quintasan> I think if we get a working KIMPanel it doesn't matter what input method is used by default
<Quintasan> if you run IBus, it doesnt change your layout, you need to press alt+space to change to second input method
<Riddell> my impression is that ibus is used by ubuntu so we should use that too to ensure gnome and kde compatibility
<seele> (back)
<maco> ibus works well in kde
<Riddell> we just need to find out where the magic switch is in qt
 * ScottK has to go.
<maco> or um...well, for me it *did* until last week when it mysteriously stopped working on karmic for me, but...
<Quintasan> Riddell: I thought that too, but how do we solve the input thingy, now I use ibus + anthy-ibus and I need to select IBus manually because the default one is XIM
<Quintasan> which is not working :/
<maco> Quintasan: which is the same as how scim/skim worked
<Quintasan> ãããã
<maco> Quintasan: er, referring to earlier with that alt+space thing
<Riddell> Quintasan: it's just Qt which is the problem right?
<Quintasan> maco: exacly :)
<Riddell> Quintasan: I was told to ask in #qt-labs so lets you and me play good cop and bad cop with everyone in there until we get an answer
<Quintasan> Riddell: I belive it is, because each time I restart Konversation or Kopete and I need to type in japanese I have to select IBus from the list once again
<Riddell> we're losing people and I also need to go soon
<Tm_T> Riddell: don't shake them too roughly, we might need them later
<Riddell> Quintasan: you have another item?
<Quintasan> yeah just quick one
<JontheEchidna> gotta bail, be back later
<maco> i have this in my .bashrc and everything works lovely
<JontheEchidna> nothing against you komputes :D
<maco> export GTK_IM_MODULE=ibus
<maco> export XMODIFIERS=@im=ibus
<maco> export QT_IM_MODULE=ibus
<Quintasan> maco: I've tired this
<Quintasan> Did not work :/
<maco> hrmph. boo!
<komputes> hehe
<Riddell> Quintasan: tell us about mplayerthumbs vs kffmpegthumbnailer
<Quintasan> okay fastly second item, dunno if you read ML about ffmpegthumbnailer but it is said it is faster than mplayerthumbs and takes 262kb of space so I quickly created a package for testing
<Riddell> does mplayerthumbs need mplayer?
<Quintasan> yeah
<Riddell> hmm, that's not much use
<Quintasan> So far it overtakes mplayerthumbs by ~10 seconds in terms of speed and takes only 262kb of space so I think if cd allows us we could put it on CD to enable thumbnails by default
<Quintasan> ffmpegthumbnailer needs to be updated to 2.0.0 but Ubuntu maintainer said he submitted it to Debian and it will sync shortly
<Quintasan> and I have uploaded kffmpeg to REVU
<Riddell> ..trying to confirm the size
<Riddell> 262kB or 262kb?
<Quintasan> kB rather :P
<Riddell> yeah, that's still a quarter meg we don't have
<Lex79> kffmpeg depends on ffmpegthumbnailer ? do we need 2 MIR for put on cd?
<Quintasan> sorry, kffmpeg itself is 7KB
<Riddell> yes, but MIRs are fairly easy to write these days
<Lex79> strange :)
<Quintasan> and ffmpegthumbnailer is ...
<Quintasan> 42 KB
<Riddell> Quintasan: well want to do the MIRs and we can put it on the DVD and consider CD if space becomes available?
<Quintasan> yeah
<Riddell> any other business?
<Quintasan> nope
<Quintasan> I guess.
<Riddell> I think everyone else has left already :)
<seele> hah
<neversfelde> :)
<seele> reconvene in #kubuntu-devel then
<Quintasan> oh well, I need to write thing earlier and do copy paste
<Riddell> Need to get 42.1kB of archives.
<Riddell> for Need to get 42.1kB of archives.
<Riddell> for ffmpegthumbnailer
<Riddell> which isn't bad indeed
<Quintasan> and 7 for kffmpeg
 * Lure thinks we should drop OOo and get lot's of space ;-)
<apachelogger> +1
<Quintasan> :D
<Riddell> thanks for coming all
<Lex79> Quintasan: can kffmpeg create thumbnails for .mkv files?
<Lure> at least for lucid+1 this should be doable
<Riddell> I'll post notes to the mailing list
<Quintasan> Lex79: yes
<Quintasan> Lex79: tested on my anime colletion :P
<Lex79> oh great !
<neversfelde> I guess we need kde-thumbnailer-openoffice in main then, too :)
<Quintasan> Lex79: http://pastebin.com/f21473b11 test results if you are interested
<neversfelde> although I have no idea what it's for
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-22
<TVrotsurbrain> s
<TVrotsurbrain> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<HFSPLUS> !ops
<Vantrax> nice
 * slangasek waves
<pitti> o/
<ttx> o/
<robbiew_> \_O_/
<jiboumans>  /o\
<slangasek> o<
 * asac waves
<Riddell> hi release dudes
 * ogra moos
 * apw arrives
<slangasek> marjo / fader_ / sbeattie, ScottK, davidbarth, jdstrand: ping
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<ScottK> o/
 * fader_ waves.
 * marjo waves
<jdstrand> o/
<slangasek> hi, folks
 * davidbarth waves as well
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-01-22 - agenda
<slangasek> hmm, botless again?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] actions from previous meetings
<slangasek>   * davidbarth to review cross-team assignments for dx specs and contact right people
<slangasek>   * ev to retarget foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update greeter to alpha-3
<slangasek>   * seb128 to follow up with pitti wrt lucid-ubuntu-one-symlinks-and-udfs not tracked on the desktop team report
<slangasek> davidbarth: any progress?
<slangasek> pitti: I think seb128's is done since you talked to me about this, so this is resolved now, yes?
<pitti> I think so
<pitti> it was an outdated teams table
<slangasek> and the spec retarget is done
<pitti> fixed permanently now
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Outstanding work items still targeted to alpha-2
<davidbarth> slangasek: sure, i've checked all bp and contacted (you, the mail is still here opened) for the right foundation contact; all other bp covered and no holes
<slangasek> davidbarth: great, thanks :)
<pitti> 0 for desktop
<slangasek> alpha-2 stuff - there were only 4 of these left, so wanted to bring attention to them as a whole rather than by team
<asac> i thought i postponed everything
<slangasek>   * Bug:504723: [MIR] uboot-imx
<slangasek>   * UbuntuSpec:dx-lucid-gtk-improvements: [bratsche] Identify and fix broken apps - totem
<slangasek>   * UbuntuSpec:security-lucid-bios-notifier: integrate tool into landscape motd
<slangasek>   * Bug:506761: lucid uboot hangs on fatload uImage on fsl TO2 TO2.5 and TO3
<jdstrand> I just updated security-lucid-bios-notifier
<slangasek> asac: you have some linked bugs that weren't targeted
<ogra> uboot-imx was approved today, i didnt add it to supported yet
<asac> slangasek: yes, i missed the bug.
<slangasek> davidbarth: and one last item there for you guys - I guess that should be retargeted to alpha-3 also?
<davidbarth> slangasek: you should have the email now
<asac> moved milestone of uboot spec to alpha-3 now (though all items where moved already)
<davidbarth> right
<asac> so both bugs should be postponed too now
<slangasek> ok - that'll be the last mention of alpha-2 WIs from me :)
<davidbarth> this one needs to reintegrated
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<slangasek> marjo, fader_: hi
<marjo> HW Testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Netbooks:
<marjo>         Passed: 9 (69%) Failed: 3 (23%) Untested: 1 (8%)
<marjo> Laptops:
<marjo>         Passed: 26 (100%) Failed: 0 (0%) Untested: 0 (0%)
<marjo> Servers:
<marjo>         Passed: 51 (96%) Failed: 0 (0%) Untested: 2 (4%)
<marjo> Desktops:
<marjo>         Passed: 12 (100%) Failed: 0 (0%) Untested: 0 (0%)
<marjo> Bugs:
<marjo> -----
<marjo> New bugs:
<marjo> 510795  No sound when headphones plugged in on HP Mini 500 (Undecided,
<marjo> New)
<marjo> 510710  ubiquity crashed with NameError in progress_loop() (Undecided,
<marjo> Fix Released)
<marjo> Open bugs:
<marjo> 510795  No sound when headphones plugged in on HP Mini 500 (Undecided,
<marjo> New)
<marjo> 504315  Toshiba NB100 failed to resume from hibernate (Undecided,
<marjo> Confirmed)
<marjo> 497546  Microphones not working on Dell Vostro 320 (Undecided, New)
<marjo> fader will follow up w/ all outstanding bugs
<marjo> Specs status and burn-down chart:
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-qa-lucid-alpha-3.html
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-integrate-regression-testing
<marjo> [cr3] Integrate into hardware certification to run on a per milestone basis: DONE
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:qa-lucid-automated-server-testing
<marjo> On track for Alpha-3
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-kernel-test-automation
<marjo> [leannogasawara] gcov kernel testing to evaluate kernel coverage (ogasawara to build kernel, talk to fader for testing): TODO
<marjo> Shooting for completion today.
<marjo> [cr3] Merge kernel team test scripts into checkbox: TODO
<marjo> Changed to INPROGRESS
<pitti> are the netbook failures mainly due to the sound problems, or something worse?
<fader_> pitti: sound on the HP Mini but hibernate on everything else
<fader_> Hibernate seems to be really broken at the moment
<pitti> ah, but hiberation is broken in general, not just on netbooks
<marjo> pitti: ack
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests
<marjo> [cr3] Extract CPU- and I/O-data provided by bootchart: TODO
<marjo> [cr3] Add DX PPA when testing and reboot if new packages are discovered: INPROGRESS
<marjo> Will start after lucid-qa-kernel-test-automation tasks are completed.
<pitti> (the desktop/laptop ones said 100%)
<fader_> pitti: Those have had only automated testing at the moment which did not hit hibernate; we're planning a round of manual tests as well
<fader_> So expect to see more failures when we do if hibernate is still broken :/
<slangasek> pitti: is there a bug # for "hibernate is generally broken"?
<slangasek> or does 504315 cover that?
<pitti> bug 499940
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499940 in linux "[lucid regression] does not resume from hibernation, restarts fresh" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499940
<slangasek> ok
<marjo> slangasek: that's all folks
 * pitti dupes
<slangasek> marjo, fader_: is there a follow-on to the alpha-2 ISO testing report, showing how well we're doing at fixing the bugs that were reported?
<marjo> slangasek: i checked on the critical bugs and they are all assigned and/or confirmed
<slangasek> but not fixed yet, ok :)
<marjo> ack
<slangasek> marjo, fader_: thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<slangasek> pitti, Riddell: you're on
<pitti> Weekly summary: (details on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus)
<pitti> - Boot speed goal is now officially for UNE; desktop-lucid-startup-speed updated accordingly
<pitti> - Rearranged startup to have fewer interdependencies, speed up wncksync, gnome-settings-daemon, seahorse
<pitti> - New GNOME point release
<pitti> - X.org wacom driver should work again
<pitti> - bug front: I went through the lucid bugs to review the desktop-ish ones, which added a few things to our list; under control by and large, though
<pitti> related to boot speed, I noticed a 5 second regression when 2.6.32-11 landed, filed as bug 510937
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 510937 in linux "[2.6.32-11 regression] 5 second delay on early boot during usb_id" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510937
<pitti> not confirmed by someone else yet
<pitti> just as an early warning
<pitti> We have quite a high number of WIs for alpha-3, and I fully expect that we'll drop some.
<pitti> The rationale is that some of the specs are "alpha-3 or not at all for lucid" (like nouveau), and some others are targets of opportunity (like social-from-the-start) which we don't want to pursue later any more (when we want to concentrate on bug fixing).
<slangasek> pitti: "now officially for UNE" - meaning we are no longer planning to hit 20 secs with the desktop image?
<pitti> slangasek: we have 20 already
<pitti> 10 is the goal
<slangasek> er, 10
<pitti> but there's no way that we can do that with a standard GNOME install
<pitti> with compiz, evo, themes, and all those bells and whistles
<robbiew_> would require us to make non-LTS like changes ;)
<pitti> many optimizations apply to both gnome and une of course, but the 10 second mark is une only
<slangasek> alright
<Riddell> Kubuntu?
<pitti> I'm done, so go ahead please
<Riddell> KDE SC 4.4 RC 2 due to be uploaded tonight
<Riddell> MIRs outstanding
<Riddell> virtuoso-opensource 503774 some packaging work to be done
<Riddell> New SIP and KOffice 2 both still in progress
<Riddell> Qt4 changing to ibus by default from XIM
<Riddell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo
<Riddell> i386 ISO is no longer oversized
<pitti> qt4 ibus> nice
<Riddell> still working on pesky amd64
<pitti> are there any langpacks to chop still?
<Riddell> the qt 4 change will be a simple config patch from us but upstream are looking to do the same thing
<Riddell> no we don't have any langpacks
<slangasek> you've gotten rid of the extra libicu?
<Riddell> yes that went a while ago
<pitti> virtuoso is not even on the CD yet, right?
<Riddell> no that'll be something else right enough
<pitti> time to chop OO.o perhaps and just ship koffice? (and perhaps make it very easy to install)
<Riddell> always tempting but nobody quite has the guts to do it
<pitti> or would that make folks go wild?
<Riddell> I've not looked closely at the problem anyway, I need to go over germinate output and see what shouldn't be there
<Riddell> koffice isn't suitable currently, it's still going through its KDE 4 transition
<ScottK> And has never been sufficiently interoperable.
<mhall119|work> is Kubuntu going to be LTS this time around?
<ScottK> Yes
<slangasek> you'll keep us posted on the progress, then?
<Riddell> mhall119|work: yes
<mhall119|work> cool
<Riddell> slangasek: yes indeed
<slangasek> ok. any other business for desktop?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<slangasek> pitti, Riddell: thanks
<slangasek> davidbarth: hi
<davidbarth> slangasek: hi
<davidbarth> The weekly report is up at the usual place: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<davidbarth> This week we've played the planning game for the next 4 weeks, with an intermediate milestone set for the time we hit the platform sprint
<davidbarth> of note for this week:
<davidbarth> A3 plan updated, with a more limited focus
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-application-indicator
<davidbarth> dbusmenu performance analysis ongoing
<davidbarth> new indicator-application 0.0.10-0ubuntu1 released this week: icon ordering, bug fixes, startup fixes
<davidbarth> new indicator-me-0.2.1-0ubuntu1: integrated distro comments
<davidbarth> indicator-applet-0.3.2-0ubuntu1: ordering, logging
<davidbarth> libindicator-0.3.1-0ubuntu1: ordering update, service restarting support
<davidbarth> so a lot of work on polishing the new indicators
<davidbarth> we have an outstanding bug, discovered by seb
<davidbarth> seb128 that is, ted is still chasing it as we speak
<slangasek> davidbarth: report lists dx-lucid-netbook-launcher-startup-speed as "finished for A2", but there are outstanding WIs that were retargeted to A3; this is still on the team's radar, right?
<davidbarth> #506683
<davidbarth> slangasek: indeed
<slangasek> ok
<davidbarth> in particular, we've been working with the desktop team on that; more results at the end of this week
<davidbarth> with some nice clutter async calls that improve things
<davidbarth> plus pitti's awesome patch!
<pitti> *beam*
<davidbarth> in summary, this is an a3 target
<davidbarth> even more now that the desktop team's focus for perf. improvements is moved to the UNE image
<davidbarth> back on the desktop for a minute:
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-me-menu
<davidbarth> dev. plan with work items for a3 and b2
<davidbarth> ted is now starting development on it
<pitti> I think by and large we are concentrating on the gnome-ish underpinnings, and DX on the new UNE launcher itself
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-gtk-improvements
<davidbarth> support for indicator object display for dbusmenu
<davidbarth> cs-deco focus being worked on with the design team
<davidbarth> pitti: right, that's a good summary
<davidbarth> and finally the sound menu which has been progressing quite well, but is currently not packaged
<davidbarth> we're a bit disapointed not to have this week as initially planned, but we prefer to audit and package it properly
 * slangasek nods
<davidbarth> and not upload on friday...
<davidbarth> that's it for the general report
<davidbarth> questions?
<slangasek> no other questions from me; others?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<slangasek> davidbarth: thanks
<slangasek> asac: go :)
<asac> hi
<asac> weekly summary:
<asac> - uboot: unblocked by using old uboot (2009.01)
<asac> - investigating marvel dove (thumb2) hangs: managed to workaround this by not using python!
<asac> - ongoing progress on thumb2 package review and ftbfs
<asac> - review blueprints and WI for alpha-3
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<asac> [LINK] http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
<asac> [LINK] http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<slangasek> s/macaroni/people/
<asac> will refrain to post the info on the status page ;)
<asac> ok. didnt know about that alias
<asac> thx
<pitti> it's not an alias
<asac> not?
<pitti> the stuff moved to people
<pitti> see platform mail
<asac> the charts look similar ;)
<asac> ok
<pitti> yes, it's running in parallel still
<pitti> for people who don't read the announcement fast enough :-P
 * pitti hugs asac, no worries
<lool> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<ogra> what announcement ?
<ogra> :P
<slangasek> asac: anything from the status report that needs highlighted, that you need input on from other teams?
<asac> in the blueprint section i gave an overview of the essential and high prio blueprints
<asac> i dont think so ... the dominating issue is still that dove images are hanging ... but
<asac> the fact that we can workaround and get a working desktop by not using python, gives me hope
<slangasek> asac: mobile-lucid-arm-lightweightbrowser didn't show any change in WI status as of this morning; did the benchmark results come in this week as expected?
<asac> i discussed this with doko already
<ogra> and the fact that python wasnt rebuilt yet
<asac> slangasek: the benchmarking became more tricky ... we are waiting on mozilla input before we can publish those
<asac> also the tool ARM uses doesnt even allow the publishing of the results :( ... so we are falling back to javascript testing and startup time... but mozilla asked for a chance to help tuning
<asac> we have a meeting early next week
<slangasek> speaking of python not being rebuilt, how far out are we from scheduling rebuilds?
<slangasek> asac: ah, ok
<ogra> didnt we say we'll wait until after DIF ?
<asac> we dont get much rebuilds automatically anymore
<ogra> (with rebuilds)
<asac> the manual rebuild is scheduled for DIF
<ogra> right
<asac> howver, we want to have the dove issue sorted
<asac> because if thats really thumb2 and we cannot workaround we have to reconsider everything
<slangasek> you have the list of packages that will need rebuilt, and waiting until DIF looks reasonble in terms of timing?
<asac> but we are not that far yet. marvell is working with our kernel peer ... we are trying etc.
<asac> slangasek: i would say we could start if there wasnt the uncertainty about thumb2 on dove :/
<asac> start doing the manual rebuilds that is
<asac> also i think doko wanted to do a lib rebuild and i think he also targetted the DIF for that
<asac> so we dont do it twice.
<slangasek> oh, you're suspecting that *using* thumb2 is causing problems?  Even though the hangs are in python, which isn't using thumb2 yet?
<slangasek> what is doko rebuilding libs for?
<asac> slangasek: there was a bug in the symbol generation i think and we suffer from performance issues due to that
<asac> dont have the details
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> wrt rebuilds, we also still need to coordinate some transitions for obsolete libraries; perhaps that will also catch a few of those
<asac> can get that to you
<asac> (but doko is on holiday till mid next week afail)
<asac> slangasek: so we know that there is a silicon bug in dove for thumb2 ... however, personally, i dont think that necessarily the main problem we are seeing
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> no more questions here; anything else on mobile?
<asac> especially since not using pytyhon gives us a working desktop ... we are trying to get new boards that have that fixed
<asac> to check that etc.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<slangasek> asac, ogra: thanks
<ttx> o/
<ogra> thanks
<slangasek> ttx: 'lo
<asac> thanks
<ttx> Status was updated at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> Alpha3-targeted bugs:
<ttx> I indecated progress on all the MIR bugs, I think they are in good shape now, just takes some time to finalize the process
<ttx> bug 503180 should see progress next week when Dustin comes back from upside-down-land
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 503180 in eucalyptus "eucalyptus-cloud doesn't reply to requests" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/503180
<ttx> Bugs affecting us in other teams:
<ttx> there is some discussion around the fix for bug 494565
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494565 in linux "support ramdiskless boot for relevant kvm drive interfaces in -virtual" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494565
<slangasek> I'm surprised at how long some of those MIRs are taking; even irqbalance could be seeded on server while the discussion of whether to include it on server continues, couldn't it?
<ttx> slangasek: yes, I think Chuck has been waiting the answer to see where he should seed it
<lool> The MIR is granted though
<ttx> yes, it's almost finished [tm]
<lool> (Since December along libcap-ng)
<ttx> So there is a -devel thread around bug 494565
<slangasek> ttx: I don't see any reason not to seed it on server, and change it later if appropriate
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494565 in linux "support ramdiskless boot for relevant kvm drive interfaces in -virtual" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494565
<ttx> slangasek: ok, will communicate that downstream
<ttx> The discussion is about potential drawbacks in generally building some features inkernel rather than inmodule
 * slangasek nods
<ttx> We need them for -virtual only... but subflavour game means it ends up in -server and -generic-pae as well
<ttx> At that point, I'm not sure the feature is worth the risk... so it should either be a full flavor or the feature should be dropped
<ttx> But I can be convinced otherwise, if everyone thinks it's safe :)
<ttx> Moving on to specs...
<slangasek> best to let that discussion run its course on the list, I think, rather than rehashing it here
<ttx> yep
<ttx> The prio High < 25% ones
<ttx> server-lucid-apport-hooks is at 22%, but work items also include targets of opportunity
<ttx> so it's actually pretty advanced
<ttx> server-lucid-canonical-application-support: that's the MIR things we already discussed
<ttx> 20%, should see some advances today
<ttx> server-lucid-seeds: 13%, the remaining few work items are more to investigate what pulls some packages in main while we planned to demote them
<ttx> server-lucid-uec-testing: 0%, mathiaz just got access to the test infrastructure, we should see good progress on this one next week
<ttx> server-lucid-ec2-config: 0%, should be at 50% at the end of the day (only 2 work items in alpha3)
<ttx> server-lucid-ec2-boothooks: 0%, blocked by the work on ec2-config, should see some significant progress by next week
<ttx> For other specs, please see http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<slangasek> all sounds good
<ttx> which also shows or trands line
<ttx> trends, even
<ttx> questions ?
<slangasek> none here
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<slangasek> ttx: thanks
<slangasek> apw: around?
<slangasek> ok, I have his report to dump in the event that he isn't
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20lucid-alpha-3
<slangasek> Much of the work pushed out from Alpha-3 is close to done and should be committed by Platform Sprint.  Due to the rejig of the burn down we have gained some hidden tasks and are now above the line.  We will be reviewing this next week to determine if we need to push out any items.
<slangasek> We have just uploaded a 2.6.32.4 kernel with i915.powersave disabled.  This has alievated numerous twitching issues as well as suspend/resume hangs on several netbook platforms.
<slangasek> EOF
<slangasek> apw: 458537 was discussed last week as "the upstream hardware doesn't support this", but the bug state hasn't changed; can you take an action (asynchronously) to follow through on that, and invalidate the bug if that's what's appropriate?
<slangasek> any other questions for kernel?
<apw> slangasek, ... hi ... yes that one is on my radar
<apw> the current states are confused as there seems to be a bug in devicekit-power yet those are won't fix
<apw> will get it fixed up
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> [ACTION] apw to fix up state of bug #458537 to reflect reality
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458537 in linux-fsl-imx51 "[armel imx51] hibernate does not work" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458537
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<slangasek> jdstrand: your agenda section is empty; entertain us with some a capella improv?
<jdstrand> o/
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> yeah, well, alls quiet on the development front
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<jdstrand> we are slowly chipping away at stuff. I think kees was the only one to get to any bp items this week
<jdstrand> that said, the burndown still shows us as on track
<slangasek> great :)
<jdstrand> I think that is pretty much it for us, unless people have questions
<slangasek> no questions here; others?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<slangasek> jdstrand: thanks
<lool> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<lool> A2 leftovers:
<lool> foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update moved to A3; I understand this is still pendin gsome input from DX
<jdstrand> sure
<lool> foundations-lucid-boot-recovery > done (lp #505887 unblocked)
<lool> A3:
<lool> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-foundations-lucid-alpha-3.html
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 505887 in sysvinit "Provide static-sh alias name and ship busybox-static by default" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/505887
<lool> foundations-lucid-reliable-device-id-in-grub: good progress from cjwatson
<lool> foundations-lucid-index-based-downloads-client, foundations-lucid-software-center-repository-based-index: lots of work from mvo and tremolux on software-center this week
<lool> foundations-lucid-better-archive-crawler: good progress last week; IS dependency discovered for changelogs.u.c and unblocked
<lool> foundations-lucid-local-repo-support: some progress by mvo this week
<lool> foundations-lucid-support-timeframe-information: good progress by mvo last week; extended for armel/regular arches; probably relates to cjwatson's documentation of support of ports vs. archive arches
<lool> foundations-lucid-jockey-support-in-ubiquity: ev started looking into this last week
<lool> foundations-lucid-lts-upgrades: good progress by mvo last week; discovered some minor things to fixup (e.g. /boot disk size calculation)
<lool> foundations-lucid-oem-config: ev implemented hostname support in oem-config
<lool> foundations-lucid-laptop-mode-tools-integration: ubuntu-laptop-mode-tools package is in
<lool> (done with dump)
<lool> Actually forgot:
<lool> foundations-lucid-release-collaboration-with-debian: python done
<robbiew> \o/
<lool> NB: no update on foundations-lucid-pre-desktop-lucid-startup-speed cause Scott was on leave + conference
<robbiew> any idea why http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-installer/ has stopped updating?
<lool> Perhaps he is traveling with the machine generating these?
<slangasek> lool: er, what's this status on foundations-lucid-laptop-mode-tools-integration?  there's no ubuntu-laptop-mode-tools package described in the spec/blueprint
<slangasek> (nor do I see this package in the archive)
<robbiew> lool: no...they sit at home
<cjwatson> the new people.canonical.com server requires explicit confirmation from IS for every authorized_keys entry
<lool> slangasek: I've seen a new ubuntu-laptop-mode package appear and thought it was related
<cjwatson> or at least to permit a user to have working authorized_keys
<slangasek> lool: I don't see a package by that name either :)
<pitti> robbiew: perhaps Scott pulled out the power when he left for LCA?
<cjwatson> since Scott's been travelling, he hasn't been in the office at the same time as the bulk of IS in order to get that reauthorised
<lool> My mirror has it for some reason
<pitti> aah
<robbiew> cjwatson: ah, ack
<cjwatson> (plus there was some installer breakage)
<robbiew> heh
<pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/ FTR
<pitti> there are some current ones
<lool> slangasek: http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/pool/universe/u/ubuntu-laptop-mode/
<lool> Sorry if that's an obsolete thing which only I am seeing
<cjwatson> that hasn't changed since hardy
<slangasek> robbiew, lool: daily-installer stopped updating because he had a failed install that apparently blocks him from further testing until a manual reset
<lool> I don't understand why I saw it appear then; sorry, my bad
<lool> Must be some local bug I have
<robbiew> slangasek: ok, thanks
<cjwatson> actually, it seems to have been removed in lucid
<cjwatson> maybe that's what you saw
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh, the authorized_keys thing is the current problem for that page? n/m then
<cjwatson> I suspect there are multiple problems, best resolved once Scott returns
 * slangasek nods
<lool> cjwatson: Ah I know what happened, it's due to adding/removing my mirror and hte package being removed between mirror updates
<lool> Ok; I'll shut up now  :)
<slangasek> anyway, until we get plymouth back out of initramfs it's hard to draw any real conclusions about the boot speed in the areas where it currently counts most
<pitti> in the meantime, if anyone needs something tested on the mini, please ping me or seb128
<pitti> we both have one as a test rig
<slangasek> lool: I guess you've reported on those specs where there was progress; what about the ones where there hasn't been progress (which is more likely to be what needs attention)?
<JFo> "bcmwl (Ubuntu)":[]
<JFo> yes?
<JFo> or does it need to be in the linux list?
<pitti> JFo: -ECHANNEL?
<JFo> sigh
<lool> slangasek: I'm afraid I don't have any data on the ones which were not mentionned in activity reports; I guess I should ping the relevant people
<JFo> sorry
<slangasek> lool: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-01-22 for the list of the high-priority specs that have low completion rates for A3
<slangasek> lool: (are you going to be representing Foundations here going forward, is the plan that whoever chairs the Wednesday meeting represents?)
<lool> I don't know
<cjwatson> I asked lool today on the basis that he'd done Wednesday, although I wasn't intending for that to be a permanent arrangement
<slangasek> ok :)
<cjwatson> I'm just having some trouble carving out time right now, but this is temporary :-(
<cjwatson> so sorry about the short-notice switch
<slangasek> any other questions for Foundations?
<cjwatson> oem-dvd-iso is my biggest worry right now since it's basically not started, but I think we have time
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<slangasek> lool, cjwatson: thanks
<slangasek> ScottK: are we throwing out binaries yet? :)
<ScottK> slangasek: No.  I wrote the person that was working on that and didn't hear back (he had some health issues before).  I think it's time to find a new victim.
<slangasek> you'll send out an RFV as appropriate, then?
<ScottK> Unfortunately a side effect of fixing Debian release coordination - Python is I'm now co-maintainer, so still no time.
<ScottK> Yes.
<ScottK> I do want to bring up a new concern
<ScottK> As I wrote to ubuntu-devel last night, I'm worried about the impact of dropping xulrunner
<ScottK> asac may have a solid plan for getting rid of anything we can support, but I think we need some coordination around this.
<ScottK> I originally got fired up over this last night when there was a casual mention on IRC that "We're dropping xulrunner to Universe."
<slangasek> What coordination do you have in mind?  Is there more to it than dropping those packages that won't be supportable?
<ScottK> Someone needs to figure out what those are, announce the plan, and track status.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> asac: is someone handling this from the mozilla team?
<ScottK> The spec as currently drafted seems ambiguous about the fate of xulrenner
<ScottK> renner/runner
<ogra> ScottK, german/english ... same word ;)
<ScottK> Heh
<slangasek> rennt xul rennt
<ScottK> If I get the action it'll be to pipe the output of reverse-build-depends into a stack of removal bugs.
<ScottK> If someone wants a more nuanced result, they need to step up.
<asac> slangasek: its part of the new support-model spec
<asac> ScottK: you were even in the UDS session, right?
<ScottK> asac: I was.  This is why I was suprised last night when there was discussion of leaving xulrunner in Universe.
<asac> so i dont think its realisitic to get rid of all xulrunner rdepends in universe
<ScottK> I don't think we have a choice.
<ScottK> Xulrunner in Universe is completely unsupportable for an LTS.
<asac> so plan is to check what apps are exposed to insecure content and get rid of those
<ScottK> And then consider it OK to leave Xulrunner unmaintained?
<asac> what doesn unmaintained mean?
<ScottK> I thought the plan was to pitch out apps that couldn't be ported to the newer releases.
<ScottK> asac: Look at the history of the current xulrunner (not 1.9.1) package.
<asac> right. thats the idea
<ScottK> OK. Maybe it's just me, but I think you just told me two opposite things are the plan.
<asac> first step: get into universe
<asac> second step, get rid of everything that cannot be forward ported
<slangasek> "what apps are exposed to insecure content" seems orthogonal to "what apps won't be forward-portable to new xulrunner versions"
<asac> but in any case xulrunner cannot be removed completely
<slangasek> the latter doesn't seem to be mentioned in the workitems for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-new-firefox-support-model
<asac> thats my main point
<ScottK> slangasek: For me the opposite part was are we removing xulrunner.
<ScottK> asac: Why not?
<asac> that would mean we also dump applications that are forward portable
<asac> which would be extreme imo
<ScottK> That's the part I don't understand
<asac> lets move that offline and
<asac> maybe present results next week
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> slangasek: I think we need an action here.
<slangasek> what is the action?
<slangasek> further discussion?
<ScottK> For asac and I to review the plan and present the resolution to the release team.
<slangasek> [ACTION] asac and ScottK to review the plan for xulrunner demotion and present the resolution at the next meeting
<ScottK> Thanks.
<slangasek> sure
<slangasek> anything else on the MOTU front?
<ScottK> Less urgent, but still a concern is merging.
<ScottK> We're a bit stuck between MoM being dead and the new UDD way of doing things not being mature.
<ScottK> I don't have data in front of me, but I have a concern stuff is getting left behind.
<slangasek> there were some problems with bzr branches being out of date; are those resolved now?
<ScottK> Some are.
<ScottK> The tools are also signifcantly more complex and so there's learning curve.
<ScottK> This hits us in Universe where it's a lot of more casual contributors.
<ScottK> There is work planned to simplfiy things in the long run, but I don't know what isn't getting done in the meantime.
<ScottK> This isn't anything other than vague uneasyness at this point.
<slangasek> I guess http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~lucas/merges.html doesn't give us a good overview of that, on account of not including age info?
<ScottK> It doesn't.
<slangasek> maybe there's a way lucas could add that in
<slangasek> over time though, so perhaps we should take this offline for further discussion
<cjwatson> I've added a foundations sprint agenda item for that
<ScottK> Lucas has made it pretty clear he's gone as far as he has time.
<ScottK> He's at the patches welcome stage.
<cjwatson> for first week in Feb
<ScottK> cjwatson: Cool.
<slangasek> ok
<ScottK> I think that's all I have.
<slangasek> ScottK: if you have further suggestions, do you want to get them to either cjwatson or myself so we make sure we look at them that week?
<ScottK> slangasek: OK.
<ScottK> Will do.
<slangasek> thanks
<cjwatson> I honestly think we should just revive and fix MoM for now
<ScottK> I'm all for that.
<ScottK> It just needs someone to do it.
<slangasek> I agree, but haven't had a chance to step up on that
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<slangasek> anything else that needs mentioning?
<ScottK> slangasek: So add that one (revive MoM) to the list of further suggestions ...
<slangasek> 8.04.4 next week; ISO testing is ongoing, final SRUs are being validated
<slangasek> ScottK: ack
<slangasek> fader_: 8.04.4 hw cert coming along?  No results yet at http://people.canonical.com/~fader/sru-testing/8.04.4.html
<fader_> slangasek: I'm running the tests as we speak
<slangasek> yay
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<lool> slangasek: Thanks!
<slangasek> thanks, all
<fader_> I should have preliminary results this afternoon, but there will likely be a few that get missed and still need tests
<slangasek> fader_: sounds reasonble, schedule-wise
<fader_> slangasek: cool, I'll drop you a line when I post what I have this afternoon
<slangasek> thanks
<pitti> thanks all
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<nigel_nb> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
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#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-23
<j1mc> hi all
<mdke> hi j1mc
<j1mc> hey mdke
<mdke> who else do we have for the ubuntu-doc meeting?
 * j1mc looks around
<nixternal> yo yo
<nixternal> I wish there was a way to put everything but a single channel on mute easily
<mdke> hey nixternal
<nixternal> how goes it mr. east?
<jjesse> hello
<mdke> nice to see so much activity on kubuntu-docs lately
<jjesse> son just woke up from nap so i don't know how much i'll be here
<mdke> nixternal: good thanks, you?
<nixternal> I guess I am doing good...a bit busy but good
<nixternal> you suing the pants off of people over there? :D
<mdke> hey jjesse
<nixternal> oh wait, only in the US do they sue the pants off of people
<nixternal> :p
<mdke> nixternal: yes, more or less. A certain amount of getting sued as well
<dhillon-v10> hi all, just got here :)
<nixternal> oh, so they keep it interesting
<jjesse> hiya mdke
<j1mc> hi dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: hi :)
<mdke> any sign of Phil?
<nixternal> j1mc: we have flourish coming up, we should talk to them and see if we can get a "documentation" hack-a-thon or something going there
<philbull> hi guys
<j1mc> there he is... :)
<nixternal> heh, right as you asked about phil :)
<j1mc> hey philbull
<mdke> great, hi phil
<dhillon-v10> philbull: hi :)
<philbull> hey, I'm on a crappy Internet connection
<philbull> hence the lateness
<mdke> no worries, shall we get started?
<philbull> sure
<mdke> shall we use the bot?
<philbull> i guess so
<j1mc> i'm not so adept at the bot - i should probably read up on it.
<mdke> let's give it a shot
<mdke> #startmeeting
<nixternal> []
<mdke> bot isn't here :)
<dhillon-v10> mdke: :)
<mdke> oh well, agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<nixternal> well that would explain everything then :)
<mdke> first item: Is moving to Mallard for the system help viable?
<mdke> discuss :)
<mdke> I'm pretty interested in whether there will be any chance of kde adoption
<nixternal> not yet, but possibly in  the future
<mdke> I think that will be important for us. nixternal- any idea?
<dhillon-v10> mdke: don't know for sure, most of the docs. in kde just got updated
<j1mc> i'm fine with writing with it, and it is fine for individual help files.  i have some concerns about widespread adoption.
<nixternal> shaunm, myself, and burk from kde will work on it in the future
<humphreybc> hi everone, sorry i'm a bit late. it's 9am on sunday morning over here!
<dhillon-v10> nixternal: and me :)
<mdke> nixternal: will you go to the help summit that Shaun has organised?
<nixternal> yes, since it just a few minutes from my house :)
<philbull> hey humphreybc
<j1mc> nixternal and i are both in chicago, where the help summit will be held
<mdke> awesome, that will be a good chance to discuss it
<mdke> j1mc: what are your concerns?
<mdke> you've been trying it for xfce, right?
<j1mc> well, for example... the "administrative tasks" page gets linked to a ton of times from within ubuntu docs.
<j1mc> with the auto linking... there would be a lot of links at the bottom of the page linking to related pages.
<j1mc> that is just one thing that comes to mind.
<mdke> I suspect there would be an element of rewriting to take account of things like that, no?
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: possible to have something like a page: "Resources" mentioning all those links
<j1mc> mdke: yes - it is just a concern, that's all.
 * mdke nods
<mdke> has it taken off with xfce?
<jjesse> i am trying to make chicago as well
<philbull> we can talk to shaun about this
<j1mc> also, the linking is designed to be from all within the same folder, if i understand correctly.
<mdke> jjesse: awesome
<philbull> Mallard is still technically in development
<j1mc> philbull: understood.  shaun's doing some cool stuff
<j1mc> i would just have concerns about requiring the docs to be all in the same folder if things were to scale up.
<philbull> can we symlink?
<mdke> yes, me too. I suspect that an ideal structure would really be to have separate folder for the top level tasks. But again, it's something to discuss with upstream
<j1mc> yes
<starcraftman> oops, lil late, hi people. Been helping with user days. :)
<j1mc> philbull: i think symlinking would get messy.
<j1mc> welcome, starcraftman
<philbull> j1mc: can we do some build magic then?
<mdke> philbull: what do you have in mind?
<philbull> keep the files in separate dirs in bzr and just put them into the same one when we install the package?
<mdke> oh yeah, of course that's doable, if it's the right solution
<philbull> it's not as neat as supporting subdirs, i guess
<mdke> but wouldn't the top level topics be mallard guide files anyway?
<mdke> so they could have their own folder
<mdke> and then be brought together by the index
<philbull> yes, that's what i was thinking
<j1mc> i wonder if you can link to things in other folders... is it just that the auto-linking doesn't work across other folders?
<philbull> again, we can ask for a modification to the Mallard implementation
<j1mc> in some ways, i liken what shaun is doing to Vala.  Vala is a simpler syntax than C, but it compiles down to C, and people can use existing bindings (I'm not a programmer... but I think this is right).
<j1mc> I'm not opposed to this... just want to make sure it will work and that it will scale well.
<mdke> well, let's keep discussing with upstream and trying things out. I think the msg from the list was broadly that adoption in this release cycle would be premature - does anyone disagree strongly with that?
<philbull> the GNOME user guide will be the acid test
<philbull> it'll be huge, much bigger than ubuntu-docs
<j1mc> mdke: i think adoption for lucid is premature
<philbull> +1
<mdke> it doesn't stop us from trying to migrate for fun and giving feedback to upstream to help refine the project
<humphreybc> I also think that 10.04 is a bad time.
<philbull> we need to be looking into it now, though
<humphreybc> Definitely try testing it in another branch now though
<philbull> I think experimenting is a good idea
<mdke> actually, I think we should keep trying things so that we can be involved in the development of the project
<humphreybc> So everyone agrees that a change will have to come this year at some point, most likely in 10.10?
<j1mc> shaun and i will both be attending that writersua conference.  it's just too bad that it's immediately after the help summit.
<mdke> humphreybc: I think that's a bit early to say
<philbull> (need to skip out for 10 mins, back soon)
<mdke> humphreybc: we'll keep our eye on upstream and see whether kde get interested too
<humphreybc> what are the kde docs like? sorry i've never really used kde
<mdke> but frankly Gnome will be moving, and so for ubuntu-docs, moving is more or less a slamdunk decision
<dhillon-v10> mdke: one of the *big* problems is that the upstream kde docs. are pretty outdated as well, and a bunch of people will be wokring on updating them as well
<mdke> dhillon-v10: the same is true of Gnome
<j1mc> mdke: i still wonder - if gnome is finding that it isn't scaling well... what would happen
<dhillon-v10> mdke: really ??
<mdke> dhillon-v10: totally. they see Mallard as a way of getting people excited about contributing again. They are planning a complete rewrite
<humphreybc> ... we could split off from using upstream docs and write our own stuff?
<mdke> j1mc: indeed
<nixternal> yes, only a few whackjobs want to write documentation, so that is why docs are getting more and more stagnant these days, system docs that is
<dhillon-v10> nixternal: :) true
<mdke> humphreybc: yes, we could. But that's not really what Ubuntu is about.
<dhillon-v10> humphreybc: waaaaaaay to much work,first writing them, then updating and all that good stuff :)
<dhillon-v10> *too
<mdke> so shall we set up a mallard testing branch? maybe even owned by ~ubuntu-doc or ~ubuntu-doc-contributors so that people can play around?
<humphreybc> indeed. but as Ubuntu gets bigger, at some point that might become a necessity. Probably not this year though :P
<humphreybc> I think a testing branch is a great idea.
<j1mc> mdke: i think setting up a testing branch is ok as long as it doesn't distract from getting good docs out the door for 10.04
<dhillon-v10> mdke: sure :)
<mdke> humphreybc: I don't really understand. Ubuntu is built out of upstreams, it's only possible because of the reuse of upstream work
<mdke> humphreybc: the same reasoning is perfectly valid for documentation
<mdke> why would we start from scratch if material can be reused?
<humphreybc> mdke: okay fair enough
<mdke> ok, let's try and summarise some action points here
<mdke> [ACTION] - ubuntu-doc to play around with a Mallard testing branch to test scalability and migration
<mdke> [ACTION] - kubuntu-docs to discuss with Shaun in Chicago possibility of KDE migration
<mdke> [ACTION] - general liaising with upstream and continued reevaluation with a view to possible migration in lucid+1 or whenever ready
<mdke> does that sound sensible?
<j1mc> nixternal: shaun was also interested in getting together briefly sometime before the summit.
<nixternal> j1mc: I am open
<j1mc> mdke: i think that sounds perfectly reasonable
<humphreybc> mdke: yep sounds rad
<mdke> ok, any other comments on Mallard?
<j1mc> not from me for now.
<humphreybc> negative
<mdke> ok, next topic
<mdke> Improving the New to Ubuntu docs - [[DocumentationTeam/Ideas/NewToUbuntu|spec here for discussion]]
<mdke> I've sketched out a plan for the new "newtoubuntu.xml" in ubuntu-docs on that wiki page
<mdke> I've bashed out two or three quick sections in the bzr branch too so that people can see what I had in mind
 * j1mc looks at the page
<mdke> any comments on the spec or initial material are very welcome
<dhillon-v10> mdke: looks pretty nice, but is is possible to show that doc. up the first time ubuntu starts up, that would make it very helpful :)
 * humphreybc also looks
<mdke> dhillon-v10: let's keep it in mind but it's something to discuss with the usability team as to whether it would be useful. At the moment yelp startup time is a bit shocking so it may not be a good idea
<mdke> although it might be faster starting up an individual document
<dhillon-v10> mdke: yaeah working on that with Shaun :)
<humphreybc> mdke: that table of contents looks very similar to the first few chapters of the manual
<dhillon-v10> *yeah
<mdke> humphreybc: the whole manual looks pretty similar to our docs :)
<dhillon-v10> mdke: lol
<nixternal> I think at best an icon for it either on the desktop of the live cd, or on the desktop after install...usability experts shot down the "popup on startup" idea
<mdke> but yeah, it's not innovative thinking or anything, just common sense, I hope
<j1mc> it seems like a good start.  i would have to think about it a bit more to really offer any suggestions at this point.
<humphreybc> mdke, i thought we'd already discussed this. Either way, you know the plan for the manual. What's the difference between this New to Ubuntu documentation and the manual?
<nixternal> its been around for years and gets installed with the ubuntu-docs package
<mdke> humphreybc: this is going to be a very short document indeed. I can't speak for the manual though because I've only read the table of contents, not the document
<humphreybc> okay so very short, like < 10 pages short?
<humphreybc> would it use yelp or a standalone PDF?
<mdke> maybe eight pages with about 30 words in each page
<mdke> yes, it's for the system documentation, so will be part of yelp
<humphreybc> gotcha
<AtomicSpark> mdke: I like it. As far as your query, I think it would be best to stick with applications installed by default and once they're up to par, we can think about adding popular (but not installed) apps. However, maybe that should be kept to the community documentation.
<j1mc> the manual isn't on the agenda . . . i'd probably rather not discuss it at this point.
<dhillon-v10> mdke: could we have like a short description for each topic, then each one linking out to the actual big doc. at the end of each page
<mdke> AtomicSpark: that would tend to be my feeling too
<humphreybc> j1mc: i know that's why I avoided discussing it, what IS on the agenda however is the fact that much of the manual content can be used for this new to ubuntu thing
<j1mc> humphreybc: ok
<mdke> humphreybc: have you seen the screenshot lower down the page? That's the sort of detail we're talking about
<mdke> for one of the topics
<humphreybc> if you have a look at the manual TOC, which will be more detailed for sure, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TableOfContents
<mdke> humphreybc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Ideas/NewToUbuntu?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=adding-applications.png
<humphreybc> Remember that the manual stuff will be nice and up to date, and will be translated into many languages, as well as having localized screenshots
<mdke> that would be chapter 5
<humphreybc> ah so it's *very* brief ;)
<mdke> well, that's probably more than 30 words, but yes.
<mdke> we have other documents covering all of those subjects in more detail
<mdke> which are linked to
<dhillon-v10> mdke: you just answered my question, thanks :)
<humphreybc> righto that's all good then. Yeah just when I read the justification and the table of contents for the "new to ubuntu" project i thought "hang on this looks a bit familiar" :P
<mdke> humphreybc: don't be surprised if you see system documents which overlap with the content of the manual. It's more surprising when you see something that *doesn't* overlap
<humphreybc> Of course, we obviously have rather nice introduction paragraphs etc for each of our chapters that you are welcome to use
<mdke> anyway, if anyone has further comments on the spec, then feel free to send them to the list
<mdke> unless anyone has immediate comments, let's move on
<j1mc> sounds good.  :)
<philbull> I have one comment
<philbull> too many notes!
<mdke> in the screenshot?
<philbull> yes
<mdke> that could easily use something else, like a bullet list
<philbull> sure, it's just a minor point
<mdke> I was carried away by Kyle's frenzied call for images
<philbull> he he
<j1mc> where is this sample page?  link?
<mdke> j1mc: it's the really long link above
<mdke> I've done the Welcome and Getting Help sections too
<philbull> are the people working on the New to Ubuntu stuff interacting with real users in some way?
<AtomicSpark> mdke: which bzr branch are the examples in? lucid?
<mdke> AtomicSpark: yep - newtoubuntu/C/newtoubuntu.xml
<mdke> philbull: not so far - what suggestions would you have?
<philbull> I'm always amazed when I watch new users use Ubuntu
<mdke> this arises in relation to the "Common Questions" things in yelp too
<philbull> they get stuck on things that you'd never believe
<philbull> it's because we're so familiar with this stuff, but it's completely new to them
<mdke> I believe that the design team has been doing some user testing that we might be able to rely on
<philbull> sure, but are they opening it up?
<mdke> Perhaps we could contact them and ask for some feedback or whether we can get access to it
<mdke> philbull: we won't know unless we ask I guess
<philbull> I asked mpt about getting user testing videos a few months back
<mdke> what did he say?
<philbull> as far as I remember, he wasn't keen
<philbull> I'll have to go back through my email though
<mdke> I know that his team is interested in helping with docs though - I bet they just haven't had time yet
<philbull> I think they might have been able to give us text reports of user testing
<mdke> so if we approach them, they *must* have some way they can help
<philbull> not really the same as seeing it for yourself though
<philbull> we can all do some limited testing of our own
<philbull> I've used my girlfriend and some friends as guinea pigs
<dhillon-v10> philbull: I am working on a little feedback system, that can be integrated in yelp so users can just comment from a doc. as they find something they can comment and send feedback right away
<dhillon-v10> :)
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: i think shaunm was looking into integrating with telepathy for that somehow, too.
<mdke> I'd be pretty happy to trust the design team's evaluation of their user testing for our purposes
<dhillon-v10> mdke, j1mc: so do you guys think its a good idea
<j1mc> mdke: could you rephrase?  i'm not sure what you mean.
<mdke> j1mc: well, Phil seemed to be suggesting that we should do our own user testing because we might not have access to the original videos that the design team has done, and just their analysis of them
<mdke> I think their analysis of them would be pretty useful, frankly
<j1mc> mdke: ah, ok... so you are saying that just seeing their analysis would be... yeah, useful.
<mdke> especially since we have limited time to do our own user testing
<j1mc> right
<mdke> they are experts at user testing, after all
<j1mc> yup
<mdke> dhillon-v10: I'm not sure, I'd like to think about it a bit more
<mdke> anyway, as an action, how about this:
<mdke> [ACTION] mdke to contact design team to get their input into what subjects could be covered and where users have common problems
<j1mc> sounds greta
<j1mc> great :)
<mdke> [ACTION] any other feedback on NewToUbuntu to the mailing list
<mdke> next item ;)
<mdke> Writing an installation guide (The Ubuntu Manual has content for this that can be used)
<dhillon-v10> mdke: I have something down, so can that be used
<mdke> philbull: you want to sum up status?
<philbull> yes
<philbull> err, we didn;t get very far
<philbull> everyone was too busy
<mdke> are those who were interested still around?
<philbull> some are, I think
<dhillon-v10> o/
<philbull> I don't think that having the smaller focused team worked too well
<philbull> at the end of the day, we're all volunteers who need to work around other stuff
<AtomicSpark> What do we want in an installation guide? Installing from a Live CD and what the available options do?
<philbull> the idea was to get people from Windows to Ubuntu in the least painful way
<philbull> we already have a detailed installation *manual*
<philbull> we don;t want to document every possible installation route
<mdke> do we?
<philbull> yes, the Debian installation guide
<mdke> ah, but that only covers the alternate cd, not the desktop cd, asaik
<mdke> *afaik
<philbull> yes
<philbull> but do we need a detailed manual for the GUI installer?
<mdke> AtomicSpark: there is this spec about the planned guide - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide
<philbull> or are we better off doing a user-assistance job?
<mdke> yeah I agree. The partitioning is a tricky bit but there's no point talking people through selecting their time zone
<j1mc> i think an installation "guide" is appropriate here.  having "help" topics for problems would make sense, though.
<philbull> j1mc: yes, this is a situation where having something that could be printed off is a good idea
<philbull> it's difficult to know exactly what to cover
<AtomicSpark> From my experince with other users, I'd say that partitioning is a big hurdle.
<mdke> I think the planning for the guide was done pretty well and the table of contents on the spec looks quite good
<j1mc> philbull: how far did you get with outlining, drafting and writing?
<AtomicSpark> And how exactly dual booting works.
<philbull> with the writing, not very far
<philbull> all of the other stuff is on the wiki
<philbull> so, what are the most common problems that people deal with when installing?
<philbull> dual booting and partitioning, definitely
<philbull> but also post-install stuff like hardware
<philbull> problems with the bootloader too
<j1mc> problems with the bootloader are definitely scary for new users.
<philbull> so, I think there is a case for providing a brief, basic walkthrough
<philbull> lots of pictures etc
<j1mc> philbull: what approach could be taken to revive the team around this?
<philbull> then separate, focused how-tos (for partitioning/dual-booting) and troubleshooting material
<j1mc> that seems like the biggest issue... getting people involved again.
<AtomicSpark> Hardware and drivers. Internet stuff like Flash and Java (although we have topics that cover this).
<mdke> I think getting the doc into the branch with a structure might help people get involved
<philbull> people in the Manual Team might be interested
<philbull> I want to write this in plain text first, before we do any markup
<mdke> ah
<philbull> that should really lower the bar to contribution
<philbull> I can mark stuff up in about an afternoon
<philbull> there's no point other people worrying about it, the content is by far the most important part
<mdke> so there won't be the usual ubuntu-doc QA structure of patch + review by ~ubuntu-core-doc member
 * j1mc nods
<philbull> AtomicSpark: we have to be careful with what constitutes "installation" and what is "New to ubuntu"
<philbull> mdke: not initially
<AtomicSpark> True. I was just throwing things up there. ;)
<philbull> of course, someone (probably me) edits together a coherent draft
<mdke> right
<philbull> the peer review can be continuous, but informal
<mdke> that's similar to the approach the manual is taking too so perhaps it's worth contacting who is in charge of the installation chapter to see if resources can be pooled there
<philbull> sure, that would be a very good idea
<philbull> we need to make a firm spec for the installation guide, though
<mdke> different to the existing one?
<philbull> maybe modify it
<philbull> we have to be clear on how it interacts with the New to Ubuntu docs
<mdke> I'd suggest modifying rather than starting again, it looks in decent shape
<mdke> true
<philbull> people are always tempted to start explaining how to add applications
<mdke> yes, that sort of thing is clearly not installing Ubuntu
<philbull> the IG should be short and sweet, installation only
<mdke> agreed
<philbull> so, maybe we should discuss this more on-list
<philbull> there should be some really fun potential for new contributors here
<philbull> some nice, difficult problems for people to explain in a user-friendly way
<mdke> will you take it forward on the list then?
<philbull> sure
<mdke> cool
<philbull> shall we move on?
<mdke> [ACTION] philbull to raise the installation-guide on the list and plan future action
<mdke> yep, next topic
<mdke> Setting out a Requirements document to guide our efforts
<philbull> this is an interesting idea
<philbull> sort of like a manifesto?
<mdke> I think what Kyle was saying was basically this
<mdke> Discussions on the list sometimes get unfocused because of a lack of understanding about what the team does
<mdke> and what it's objectives are
<mdke> personally, I think that can be resolved by (a) documenting better what we mean by topic based help, and (b) a rewrite of the style guide
<j1mc> mdke: i think it also takes into consideration our own roles as "upstream" doc providers.
<mdke> calling it a "requirements document" seems a bit rigid to me, I don't think we really have such things
<j1mc> which i'm not so sure we had really considered so much before
<philbull> I think having a brief list of what we're trying to achieve with the docs would be nice
<mdke> j1mc: could be, I know he has that in mind often
<j1mc> i think that setting up "requirements" of some sort would be helpful in deciding what syntax to use...
<philbull> ah, yes
<philbull> j1mc: who are we upstream of?
<j1mc> that way we can lay out what is important to us and see which platform best meets our needs.
<j1mc> philbull: OEM's who redistribute ubuntu.
<mdke> philbull: Ubuntu gets customised by quite a few distributors
<philbull> who in particular?
<mdke> dell?
<j1mc> dell
<j1mc> system76
<nixternal> system76
<nixternal> zareason
<j1mc> i'm not sure who all else
<nixternal> and quite a few more
<philbull> do we have contacts with these people? (for docs, in particular)
<mdke> various netbook providers maybe
<mdke> philbull: I think Kyle is in charge of that side of things in Canonical's OEM team
<j1mc> philbull: i'm sure that kyle does
<mdke> j1mc: your point about syntax could be remedied by drafting a "MigrationToMallard" spec which sets out the different things that Mallard would need to be able to do to suit our needs
<j1mc> i'm not familiar with writing a requirements document, though
<j1mc> mdke: exactly
<j1mc> mdke: one thing that hasn't reall come up yet with regards to mallard are the server docs.
<mdke> that would be part and parcel of trying and testing Mallard out
<j1mc> we need to keep their requirements in mind, too
<j1mc> yeah - just mentioning it as i don't think it had been mentioned before
<mdke> j1mc: it isn't essential that the server guide migrates.
<j1mc> mdke: yes.
<mdke> personally it hadn't occurred to me that the server guide would move away from docbook
<mdke> it's a self contained guide so Mallard's aims don't necessarily apply
<j1mc> mdke: sorry... i misread what you had said.
<j1mc> server guide could probably stay on docbook, though i'm not as familiar with it.
<j1mc> it is the first thing i remove when i go to set up xubuntu docs. :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> so, how about this by way of actions
<j1mc> so for an action item regarding the requirements doc -
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: one quick question: the server guide isn't going to be removed from ubuntu-docs right ?
<mdke> [ACTION] as part of testing Mallard, a spec to be drafted setting out what Mallard needs to do for us
<mdke> [ACTION]
<mdke> whoops
<j1mc> mdke: [/ACTION]  :-P
<mdke> [ACTION] team to prepare a document setting out aims of writing desktop documentation including Topic based help
<mdke> [ACTION] general resolve to update style guide to continue :)
<j1mc> mdke: i would draft it a bit more broadly...  yeah.  not just focused on what mallard needs to do for us, but what we require for a doc syntax.
<j1mc> s/for/from
<mdke> j1mc: sounds good
<j1mc> moving on?
<mdke> moving on :)
<mdke> D"What should we do about screenshots?"
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: sorry... no, the serverguide WILL remain in ubuntu docs
<j1mc> we aren't going to remove it
<j1mc> mdke: i like your suggestion of mostly using screenshots that don't feature text
<mdke> my opinion on this remains the same - the value of adding screenshots without text I can see, but for screenshots without text, it would be a big logistical exercise to gather translated screenshots and we'd decrease the amount of completely translated docs we have
<mdke> as there would be bound to be screenshots that don't get translated
<mdke> taking good screenshots isn't so easy, extrapolate that over 50 languages and we are in trouble
<j1mc> mdke: i've been looking over the google chrome help, and in most cases they take the approach of text-less icons when using images.
<mdke> so yeah, I'm +1 on a policy for textless icons
<j1mc> here's an interesting page, though: http://www.google.com/support/chrome/bin/answer.py?hl=es&answer=95606
<mdke> it would be awesome to be able to use icons that adopt the theme that the user reading the help is using
<mdke> dunno if that is possible though
<mdke> j1mc: heh
<j1mc> mdke: i wouldn't think so
<mdke> anything is possible!
<j1mc> hehe - ok, we'll aim for that for lucid+4 :)
<mdke> I'll maybe just file a bug on yelp
<mdke> :p
<mdke> what do others think about this issue?
<j1mc> mdke: i think using a few images that feature text is ok if they are limited in use and will particularly hep the user.
<mdke> would we just liaise with the translators through the mailing list and undertake to upload translated images?
<j1mc> nixternal: ping ^^^
<j1mc> mdke: yeah, i supposed we would want to coordinate well with the translation team.  we'd have to provide really clear instructions on how to take the screenshot in the same way.
<j1mc> at least, i think we would.
<nixternal> I always wondered about translated images/screenshots myself
<mdke> we would yeah. problem is I'm fairly sure that we wouldn't get as many translated screenshots as we do translated docs - Rosetta lowers the barrier so much
<j1mc> mdke: in certain cases, i don't think having an untranslated screenshot is so bad.
<j1mc> if it isn't anything too specific - as long as it guides the user well enough.
<j1mc> they can match things up with their eyes.
<j1mc> but generally, i do strongly prefer images w/o text where possible.
<mdke> it's not so professional though, as your google chrome page shows
<j1mc> mdke: yeah.
<mdke> I would still prefer a textless images policy myself. philbull - any thoughts?
<philbull> images make the docs much more user friendly
<philbull> my connection dropped... did we discuss the issue of people confusing images for the real GUI?
<mdke> no, we were talking about what the consequences are if (as I think will happen) certain languages have translated docs but not translated images
<philbull> I agree with j1mc, something is better than nothing in most cases
<philbull> it's not very professional to have untranslated images, but I don't think that that's a strong enough reason not to use images with text in
<philbull> we should just try harder with the translation
<philbull> it's a pretty easy way of contributing
<philbull> (getting people to send in translated screenshots)
<mdke> we can try really hard, but because Rosetta is so easy for translators, the screenshot translation will simply not be as comprehensive as the xml
<j1mc> i wonder if there is any way to automate screenshots.
<mdke> plus we'll have to take quite a bit of time uploading them all
<mdke> and the branch will get huge too
<j1mc> like, en_bg *take screenshot*... switch to de *screenshot*... switch to fr *screenshot*...
<philbull> I think we can get around all this, if we're smart about it
<j1mc> mdke: yeah, branch size would be an issue
<philbull> j1mc: I thought about that, but it would be a massive burden on us
<philbull> uploading doesn't need to take a long time
<philbull> maybe we can do a trial run, with just a few images?
<j1mc> i say that we use textless images unless we get team approval for something specific.
<j1mc> even in those cases, we should reach out to the translators
<philbull> how does this sit with the install CD space limitations?
<j1mc> make sure they are aware of the issues.
<mdke> philbull: probably wouldn't be an issue - we could split the images out into language packs just like the xml. But it would increase the size of language packs a bit so they might not ship as many on the cd as they do now
<humphreybc> The manual will have localized screenshots you guys could use.
<philbull> humphreybc: how are you handling the translation of the screenshots?
<humphreybc> We're just going to do it manually. We've got enough manpower to basically get the translators to take screenshots as well. Obviously this is the plan, we haven't started it yet so it may all go haywire but I think we should be okay.
<humphreybc> We do have to watch how many screenshots we have due to size, but I love screenshots - as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words!
<humphreybc> It would be groovy if we could have a screenshot library that we can both use
<humphreybc> to save space
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> we'll need some guidelines for taking useful screenshots too
<mdke> to avoid the confusion with the UI issue that philbull mentioned
<j1mc> hey all, fwiw, i won a copy of a program called "screensteps" in a contest last year, but couldn't use it because they didn't have a linux version. a guy from the software company wrote me this week to let me know that they have a test version for linux.
<j1mc> of course it is propriatary: http://www.google.com/support/chrome/bin/answer.py?hl=es&answer=95606
<j1mc> ah, crap
<j1mc> sorry, wrong link
<humphreybc> sorry about that, laptop just ran out of juice as i plugged it in!
<mdke> there is an old page here that could be useful - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
<humphreybc> what did I miss?
<mdke> 21:46:36 < j1mc> hey all, fwiw, i won a copy of a program called "screensteps" in a contest last year, but couldn't use it because they didn't have a linux version. a guy from the  software company wrote me this week to let me know that they have a test version for linux.
<j1mc> http://www.bluemangolearning.com/blog/2010/01/experimental-screensteps-for-linux-beta/
<j1mc> i probably won't use it, as it is proprietary, but i think it speaks to the fact that it would be awesome if we had more apps like this for linux... FLOSS ones, that is.
<j1mc> a bit off topic, i know...
<mdke> ok, let's try and pull the strings together here
<mdke> j1mc's proposal seems sane to me, i.e. that we have a textless policy unless there is team approval for something specific
<mdke> if we're going to start using screenshots, text or not, I think we should pull together some guidelines on how to take good ones
<humphreybc> What do you think about a shared screenshots package?
<mdke> package as in deb package?
<humphreybc> yes, in the repos
<nixternal> mdke: kde has a screenshots policy that has worked, and I thought we used one from gnome a long time ago, like in the 5.04 to 6.06 era
<mdke> what would that be used for?
<humphreybc> Oh wait are you thinking of including screenshots in yelp or the online docs?
<humphreybc> Sorry I missed a fair chunk of the conversation earlier
<mdke> humphreybc: we're talking about the system docs right now, which are the same as you see on help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> the wiki already uses quite a few screenshots
<humphreybc> if hypothetically the manual was included on the CD, it would be silly for us to have screenshots in the manual and you guys to have duplicates in yelp of the same stuff
<humphreybc> so a shared screenshot package/database/library call it what you will, would make sense?
<mdke> how would the manual use such screenshots? Isn't it intended to be in a pdf?
<mdke> but anyway I can't conceive of a world where Ubuntu includes two separate help resources on the CD
<humphreybc> It sure is. That would be something that would need to be investigated - perhaps it could somehow be built... oh wait that would require latex installed.
<mdke> images in pdfs need to be part of the pdf itself, afaik
<humphreybc> well many people couldn't conceive a world where machines build cars, but it happened :)
<mdke> that's a different type of conceiving
<humphreybc> Either way, I am certain that the screenshots from the manual project could be useful
<mdke> obviously, it's technically possible
<humphreybc> Especially seeing as they're localized
<humphreybc> (or, rather will be)
<mdke> yes, reusing good material is clearly a good idea
<humphreybc> We'll just have to see how we go. Getting a whole heap of localized screenshots in 30 languages is going to be tough
<mdke> yeah, that's my feeling too
<humphreybc> Yeah I've always known that. It might not happen in time for Lucid
<humphreybc> It's just one of those wait and see things
<mdke> ok, let's move on
<mdke> don't think we resolved this issue but let's defer to the list in the interest of finishing the meeting
<mdke> last item is:
<mdke> Screencasts team up for adoption
<mdke> popey: around?
<humphreybc> I think he said he couldn't make it, mdke
<mdke> yeah, but his session may have finished by now
<mdke> let's see
<mdke> ah, looks like someone else took over his session so maybe he isn't around at all
<mdke> ok, deferred to the next meeting :)
<mdke> thanks everyone and we'll follow up on the list with the various action items
<humphreybc> cool, enjoy the rest of your weekend matt
<j1mc> mdke: it's been two hours - i can follow-up about xubuntu docs at a later time.
<mdke> oh sorry, I didn't see that extra item
<j1mc> i just want to see about being able to test out an html build of the docs relatively early in the process.
<mdke> j1mc: up to you
<mdke> j1mc: what's the current status?
<j1mc> i've got some time to look at things this weekend, but i think i've got a decent idea of what i need to do
<j1mc> mdke: i've switched all of the docs to use a xubuntu-menus-C entity file
<j1mc> instead of gnome-menus-C
<j1mc> and modified the docs to validate against that
<j1mc> but other than that, they still are ubuntu-specific
<j1mc> still, i'd like to get an html build ready within about 2 weeks.
<mdke> ok, I'm happy to help with that
<j1mc> i am more experienced with things now, but will surely have some questions for you.
<mdke> no problem
<j1mc> thanks, mdke
<mdke> no worries - let's call the meeting closed :)
<j1mc> that's it for me for now, though, then.  :)
<j1mc> yep :)
<j1mc> thanks.  enjoy the rest of your weekend
<mdke> cya all
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-24
<Smex> laters folks.
<Coringao> Hello everyone, I would like to know when the meeting begins Ubuntu Gaming Team Meeting?
<Coringao>  am the creator and administrator of ubuntugames.org, and I need help on the packaging of games in the Ubuntu repository.
<Coringao> * I  am the creator and administrator of ubuntugames.org, and I need help on the packaging of games in the Ubuntu repository.
<Coringao> I wonder when it will start the Ubuntu Gaming Team Meeting
<Coringao> To show the games created on the site.
<Coringao> http://www.ubuntugames.org/us/downloads
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-17
<udienz> bdrung, DMB meeting now?
<persia> udienz, Ought be, yes.
<bdrung> cjwatson, cody-somerville, geser, soren, stgraber: DMB meeting. now!
<udienz> persia, ok i will waiting
<cjwatson> hi
<NCommander> morning
<geser> Hi
<bdrung> four are here.
<bdrung> shall we begin? who will be the chair if yes?
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:09. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<persia> [TOPIC] Colin Watson to find a convenient time for a meeting for Martin Pool's application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Colin Watson to find a convenient time for a meeting for Martin Pool's application
<cjwatson> I suck
<persia> Carried over.
 * persia digs into numbering
<bdrung> martin will be at the next meeting, won't he?
<persia> poolie isn't here now, so skipping that.
<persia> cody-somerville, Are you about?
<geser> have we a working DMB for the next meeting?
<geser> as many expire in a few days
<bdrung> what happens when people expire from DMB?
<persia> bdrung, Ideally, we previously organised a selection process, and have new members.  Otherwise we've historically been inquorate.  I suppose we could ask the TB for an extension because we didn't sort a selection process.
<bdrung> persia: how long does this selection process take (from collecting volunteers till approved new members)?
<geser> bdrung: in 3 days you will be the only DMB member left
<cjwatson> we need to ask for an extension; we can't just go inquorate
<bdrung> geser: i know.
<persia> bdrung, usually about a month.  Are you up for running one?  2 weeks for nominations, 2 weeks for polling.
<bdrung> persia: i never did this before.
<persia> I'll do it then.
<persia> [ACTION] persia to organise a new selection process for DMB renewal
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to organise a new selection process for DMB renewal
<geser> I can do it. I've done the last DMB voting, so I know how not to do it :)
<persia> Anyone else want to ask the TB for an extension, or shall I do that also?
<persia> geser, Would you prefer to do it?
<geser> up to you, don't how much time you have available
<persia> I'm just recovered from being ill, and actually appreciate a new task that I won't feel late about :)
<geser> ok, then you can keep the action item
<persia> And I'll talk to TB too, since nobody appears to have volunteered for that one.
<persia> [ACTION] persia to request DMB extension from TB
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to request DMB extension from TB
<persia> OK.  Moving on.
<persia> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Core Developer application for Michael Casadevall (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer application for Michael Casadevall (NCommander)
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichaelCasadevall/CoreDevApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichaelCasadevall/CoreDevApplication
<cjwatson> (I think I'd missed, or forgotten, that NCommander was applying, but I'd like to add my support as if I had inserted an endorsement; his installer and CD image work of late has been well worth it.)
 * soren wanders in
<persia> NCommander, You indicate that you are concerned about community involvement in backend infrastructure.  If not Launchpad, what infrastructure do you mean?  If Launchpad, is that not something being addressed by the increasing openness of Launchpad to random patch acceptance?
<bdrung> persia: you stole my question. ;)
<persia> bdrung, You can have first follow-up then :)
<bdrung> NCommander: when was your last core-dev application?
<NCommander> persia: Most of the backend in Ubuntu was originally copied from Debian, and its not very documeneted. Last time I had looked, there is a distinct lack of documentation on bits like livecd-rootfs/debian-cd/etc which makes the bar to contribution to backend code be extremely hihg
<NCommander> bdrung: little less than two years ago. (it was a few months after I made MOTU)
<bdrung> NCommander: any plans for getting more people involved in the backend?
<bdrung> NCommander: i would love to see how the official cd are created. so that i can recreate them on my own.
<NCommander> bdrung: when people have shown interest in things that require backend workon
<NCommander> bah
<NCommander> backend work on ubuntu-arm, I've pointed them in the right direction for livecd-rootfs for respinning and making custom squashfs's, as well as where the branches for debian-cd are. Unforutnately, to run most of our backend scripts aside from livecd-rootfs, it requires a lot of effort, time, disk space, and certian live sacarifies
<NCommander> bdrung: indeed, I'd love to see such a document, but getting working images out of our tools is annoying since without the CD Image signing key, all the validation scripts in the installer blow up
<cjwatson> that's a bug, our scripts should allow unsigned images :)
<NCommander> cjwatson: the scripts allow it. d-i has issues
<persia> Or at least only show a warning.
<cjwatson> please fix ;-)
<cjwatson> it's not supposed to
<NCommander> cjwatson: I'll have to look at it again. debootstrap blows up due to the key mismatch and d-i doesn't exit gracefully if debootstrap is broke :-/
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> d-i's meant to consider it simply unsigned and that this should be OK when booting from a CD (as opposed to from the network), rather than considering it a mismatch
<persia> NCommander, You indicate you are proud of bug #349504.  Do you have plans to address comment #7, or have you already in another forum?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 349504 in shadow (Ubuntu) "if system date is set to 01-01-1970 users are enforced to update their password" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/349504
<cjwatson> anyway, somewhat OT I suppose
<bdrung> NCommander: let me know once documentation is in place and i will test it. more users creating cd images -> more bugs are found -> better software
<NCommander> persia: I believe the issues were addressed on the shadow development mailing list, and my patch was landed in the end. I do not remember the specifics of that discussion however
<persia> NCommander, Makes sense.  Just not visible in LP.
<persia> Other questions?
<bdrung> NCommander: your upload count is quite low for lucid, maverick, and natty compared to the previous releases. will you do more uploads once you are core-dev?
<cjwatson> we should not just be assessing by raw numbers
<NCommander> bdrung: many packages I worked on past karmic were based in main and had to be sponsored into the archive, usually as part of a larger patch.
 * ogra guesses NCommander's upload count dropped due to being forcused on armel breakage with the recent releases... being a patch pilot for core-dev will surely raise that again 
<cjwatson> (general rant)
<NCommander> bdrung: in addition, many of the things I have patched have come after weeks/months of active debugging
<bdrung> cjwatson: i know. i just was curious why the numbers dropped.
<NCommander> Getting openoffice.org to work on ARM was .... a slow process to say the least
<soren> Ungh... Yeah, that sounds like no fun at all.
<NCommander> (nor can I claim credit to the final patch)
 * ogra noticed the above for his pwn upload count as well, debugging arm bits usually takes longer 
<stgraber> hehe, considering the time it takes to build on x86, I'm not really surprised that debugging it and fixing it on arm would be a very slow process :)
<ogra> s/pwn/own/
<NCommander> stgraber: your never in a good position when your starting build time is three days :-)
<stgraber> hehe :)
<NCommander> Thunderbird was another one of similar evil to debug
<NCommander> as is mono
<bdrung> NCommander: so your involvement went from broad to deep.
<NCommander> bdrung: its more broad, as I still focus on the archive in the entirity, but most of what breaks these days are non-trivial bugs that require me to gain anunderstanding of the codebase and such to properly address.
<NCommander> bdrung: being heavily involved on the ARM team requires meand other full-time porters to care for it in our entirity due to most teams lacking access to ARM hardware
<bdrung> (NCommander: i hope that this will change. arm netbooks, arm servers, ...)
<ogra> all the arm team is focused on broad in general ... sadly the bugs force us into "deep" usually
<stgraber> it's getting easier and easier to get your hands on ARM hardware nowadays, though access to the very new and shiny stuff is still a lot more difficult
<ogra> just because of their evil nature :)
<NCommander> bdrung: with the release of pandaboards from TI, usable hardware has gotten at least affordable
 * stgraber still doesn't have any dual core ARM ... :(
<NCommander> stgraber: I recommend buying a Nexus One :-)
<NCommander> (or a pandaboard)
<persia> So, any other questions?  We're drifting, and there is another applicant.
 * cjwatson has no questions
<stgraber> NCommander: considering the pandaboard. Currently have two BeagleBoard (C4), a Genesi and of course my n900 (great phone) :)
<ogra> 7me would vote +2 for NCommander if he could ... he did awersomely improveme over time
<stgraber> persia: no question here
<soren> Nor I.
<ogra> *awesonely improve
<ogra> gah
<persia> [VOTE] Confirm Michael Casadevall (NCommander) as Ubuntu Core Developer
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Confirm Michael Casadevall (NCommander) as Ubuntu Core Developer.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> ogra: did you choose to start using your classmatepc again ? the keyboard certainly feels like it ;)
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<ogra> stgraber, lol, no, compiling and having ff+tb open on 512M somehow makes the ac100 not happy wrt kbd input
<persia> NCommander, Congratulations.
<ogra> wohoo
<NCommander> neat
<ogra> NCommander, congrats !!!
<stgraber> NCommander: congrats !
<bdrung> ogra: then compile eclipse on the ac100! it needs 2 gig ram. ;)
<persia> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Contributing Developer applications for Mahyuddin Susanto (udienz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Contributing Developer applications for Mahyuddin Susanto (udienz)
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MahyuddinSusanto/ContribDevApplications
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MahyuddinSusanto/ContribDevApplications
<ogra> bdrung, heh, i would never do such an insanity on my main work-machine
<stgraber> ogra: did you manage to get some kind of video acceleration going with Ubuntu on this one (nvidia blob or similar) ?
<persia> bdrung, stgraber -> #ubuntu-arm (but  later, please) :)
<ogra> stgraber, nope, but there is someone who provides an image with it ... (and it's rather OT here)
<persia> udienz, A few folks have commented about small issues due to volume of work, and changelog issues.  How do you plan to address these in the future?
<udienz> persia, i will improving changelog issue by reading last changelog created by other folks
<udienz> in natty-changes@lists
<persia> udienz, That sounds like a good start.  If you're not sure, I'd also recommend asking other developers for their opinions before pushing a patch/branch.
<persia> udienz, What are your plans to improve the developer documentation and mentoring program?
<udienz> udienz, helping other people to make a documentation. now i'm in ubuntu-beginners team
<udienz> writing
<udienz> or other stuff
<bdrung> udienz is talking to himself. :D
<udienz> :D
<udienz> bdrung,  ah sorry i'm very nervous
<bdrung> udienz: you don't have to be nervous. :)
<persia> udienz, Being nervous is understandable.  What do you fear most about this process?
<cjwatson> DRAGONS, no wait
<persia> cjwatson, That's the *other* process
<cjwatson> my mistake
<udienz> bdrung, persia, i'm verveous because its my first time to applied ini ubuntu-contrib dev
<persia> udienz, Ah, nothing to worry about then.  You're doing fine.
<udienz> 8nervous
<udienz> about packaging doc, i try to writing in my language first and spread into local LoCo to evaluating
<bdrung> udienz: can you explain your third point (debian and ubuntu relations) of "What I like least in Ubuntu"?
<udienz> bdrung, sometimes i feel alone in debian,
<udienz> and i read email in debian-mentors
<udienz> seems like we are not communicate in debian
<udienz> but its my opinion
<bdrung> udienz: we = ubuntu developers?
<udienz> bdrung, no, but ubuntu enthusiast
<cjwatson> it's certainly a field which needs continuing work
<udienz> sometimes a prospective ubuntu-dev will submit to debian
<udienz> but he don't know
<udienz> so i suggest to discussing it before landed in debian
<udienz> btw sorry for my english
<persia> udienz, is Launchpad lying to me, or was aspell-sk your first accepted upload?
<udienz> yes, aspell is my first upload
<udienz> persia, yes, aspell-sk is my first upload
<persia> Were you involved in Ubuntu Development before that (or, perhaps, Sabily)?
<udienz> yes, Sabily and BlankOn. all Ubuntu based
<soren> Sorry, guys. Something's come up. I need to run. Will hurry back.
<udienz> any question?
<bdrung> udienz: did you read debian team emails?
<bdrung> for example pkg-mozext-maintainers
<udienz> bdrung, where? -mentors? yes i'm subscribing to lists
<udienz> bdrung, yes i'm subscribing to pkg-mozext-maintainers lista
<persia> Other questions?  Ready to vote?
<bdrung> udienz: there are a bunch of teams. feeling may only apply to the mentors list.
 * bdrung may have questions, but is ready to vote
<bdrung> s/feeling/your feelings/
<persia> [VOTE] Confirm Mahyuddin Susanto (udienz) as Contributing Developer
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Confirm Mahyuddin Susanto (udienz) as Contributing Developer.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> -1 : Great start, but I prefer to see six months (or, at minimum two) of work on Ubuntu before I can judge that the significant work will be sustained.
<MootBot> -1 received from persia. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<bdrung> +1 it's a Contributing Developer and not a MOTU application
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<stgraber> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<geser> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<cjwatson> +1 - for the purposes of contributing-developer, I'm happy to count the time spent on Ubuntu derivatives - it shows that the interest in development isn't a passing phase, which is basically what I think we're looking for
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> (sort of +0.5, but only because I haven't spent lots of time looking through his work)
<persia> cody-somerville, and soren are not here right now, but their votes won't affect outcome at this point.
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 1
<cjwatson> wait, aren't we missing one more?
<cjwatson> three +1 votes would bring us to a balance of 4.
<cjwatson> oh, I can't count.  Never mind.
<persia> We got 5 votes.  Two +1, Two +0, One -1.  aren't we seven?
<cjwatson> you're right.
<persia> udienz, You're off to a great start.  We hope to see you back here soon.  Personally, I'd recommend a couple months, but you may want to chat with those with whom you work closely, who may encourage you to return sooner.
<udienz> persia, thanks
<persia> [TOPIC] Chair for next meeting?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Chair for next meeting?
<stgraber> I can do it
<persia> bdrung, Would you mind, as you're the only one that is confirmed to be here then?
<stgraber> (that's if I'm not expired by then :))
<bdrung> persia: ok
<persia> stgraber, Heh.  OK.  I'll mark you down, just in case.
<persia> Next chair stgraber (or bdrung, if needed)
 * bdrung nods
<persia> Does anyone have a need for immediate posting of minutes?  I'd rather post in 12 hours, if that's acceptable.
<stgraber> not that a meeting would be so useful if everyone but bdrung has expired ;)
<geser> stgraber: the voting would be fast :)
<persia> I'll take that as a no :)
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:28.
<udienz> bdrung, may i ask in private?
<bdrung> yes
<skaet> hiya,  we will be having an SRU/LTS meeting today, for those not on holiday.
 * charlie-tca waves
 * ara waves
<skaet> agenda can be found ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-01-17-SR
 * skaet waves back to charlie-tca and ara
<skaet> hi all,  time to start.
<Daviey> o/
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> Agenda can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/StableReleaseAgenda
<skaet> formatting is still a bit rough, but I'll polish it up later today :P
<skaet> Focus for this week is 10.04.2,  Freeze will be on 1/20.  Please submit in last bug fixes.
<skaet> Last week, we've agreed that between 10.04.2 freeze and release  we will not be releasing any Lucid SRU kernels.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] 10.04.2
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.04.2
<skaet> sconklin around?
 * skaet figures not many US folk will be.
<skaet> pitti around?
 * ara is surprised skaet is around
 * skaet is taking a swap day later in the week.  :)
<skaet> ara,  any updates?
 * skaet thinks this may end up being a very short meeting. 
<ara> skaet, nothing from us, we will test the -proposed kernel as soon as available
<skaet> ara,  proposed kernel for 10.04.2 looks like it will be the one released last week.   Can you outline the plans for hw cert testing the 10.04.2 kernel, so others can ask questions.
<ara> skaet, sure
 * skaet should probably have said 10.04.2 release,  since its more than a kernel ;)
<ara> we are going to have a full cycle of certification testing against the candidate images for 10.04.2
<ara> meaning, we are going to make sure that all the systems that were certified for 10.04, work equally fine in 10.04.2
<ara> if the week of release the final image differs slightly from the one we have tested
<ara> then we will also run automated tests against that one
<ara> ..
<skaet> thanks ara!   anyone have questions?
 * skaet looks around,  guesses not.
<skaet> jibel,  can you summarize what the QA team will be doing?
 * skaet guesses we are light on QA attendance today too.
<skaet> ok, moving along
<skaet> [TOPIC] SRU updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU updates
<skaet> from discussions last week,  we're not going to be having lucid kernel updates now until after we release 10.04.2.   Maverick will only be if OEM has critical issue they can't work around.
<skaet> expectation is there may be a bit of catchup on karmic, hardy, dapper in this interval.
<ogra> argh ... is that the sru meeting ?
<skaet> ogra, yup.
 * ogra wonders why he never gets cgal reminders for it and thus forgets about it
 * skaet will check
<skaet> zul,  any updates from your side?
<skaet> s/side/team/
<zul> skaet: nope
<skaet> ogra,  any updates on SRU or 10.04.2 from your team?
<ogra> nothing i'm aware of for lucid, no
<skaet> okie,  am noticing smagoun1 popping in and out, and wondering if there is anything on OEM's concern list we need to worry about?
<smagoun1> skaet: not actively, we just need those SRU kernels to keep coming
<smagoun1> (for 10.10, primarily)
<skaet> smagoun1,  understood.   We've got a resource crunch on the QA and HW Cert side until the 10.04.2 comes out.
<skaet> VanHoof is working with sconklin for workarounds until this bottleneck clears up.
<smagoun1> yup, I talked w/ the kernel guys about this a bit at the Rally. There's some nice-to-have stuff that will be delayed for us, nothing we can't work around though
<skaet> excellent.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] any other kudos/concerns/comments?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other kudos/concerns/comments?
<skaet> kudo: just wanted to say thank you to the teams at the rally last week for hard work on coming up with an interlock schedule.
<ara> skaet, thanks to you!
<skaet> :)
<skaet> kudo:  thanks to ara for initiating the plenary so we could educate folks about the new kernel SRU cadence.   It was fun to do, and sounded like audience liked it.
<skaet> any other comments?
 * skaet looks around....
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:26.
<skaet> thanks ara, zul, ogra, smagoun, daviey
<ogra> :)
<smagoun> skaet: thanks!
<skaet> will make sure we get some detailed minutes put out to summarize last week, so information goes out.
<ShootEmUp> Hi everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-18
<udienz> nobuto_mobile, waiting for Asia/Oceania Meeting?
<udienz> elky?
<elky> persia, lifeless: freeflying?
<elky> i can't do anything on my own :(
<elky> udienz, sorry, it's not looking like happening tonight
<udienz> elky, okay no problem i'll try next meeting
<zul> hi
<andreserl> \o/
<hallyn> \o
<hallyn> jolly good morning, all.
<JamesPage> o/
<JamesPage> Afternoon all....
<Daviey> \o
<SpamapS> o/
<kirkland> o/
<ttx> \o
<hallyn> no sombreros this morning?  no hunting caps?
<SpamapS> Alright, lets begin
<hallyn> settle down there, SpamapS
<hallyn> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is hallyn.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<SpamapS> *\o/*   gooooo rally!
<SpamapS> hallyn: err, ok you can do it if you want. ;)
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> ALL: please check the SRU tracker for 'needs-verification' bugs
<hallyn> http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
<hallyn> everyone rais your hands if you're NOT guilty
<SpamapS> That one should, I think, roll forward for a bit longer so we remember that its important.
<SpamapS> at least until 10.04.2
<hallyn> [ACTION] ALL: please check the SRU tracker for 'needs-verification' bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ALL: please check the SRU tracker for 'needs-verification' bugs
<hallyn> SpamapS: sounds good, i'll try to remember to keep the link in with the action when i carry over
<hallyn> robbiew to review ServerTeam wiki [carried over]
<Daviey> i thought that was done?
<hallyn> hm, is robbiew in?
<SpamapS> I recall him claiming he'd done it as well.
<robbiew> o/
<hallyn> hm, didn't get updated on the meeting page...
<hallyn> robbiew: ^ ServerTeam wiki all reviewed and uptodate?
<zul> yeah i totally missed the boat on the server page
<robbiew> yup...at least the external one
<hallyn> zul: meaning action items aren't updated?  in that case let me search the logs for the real ction items
<ShootEmUp> Hi everyone!
<SpamapS> ShootEmUp: welcome!
<ShootEmUp> glad to be here
<hallyn> feh, there, jan 4
<hallyn> yay, there ARE no actions from the jan 4 meeting
<SpamapS> \o/
<hallyn> so, barring objections (i.e. if i'm mistaken), i'll move on
<ShootEmUp> none? what do they do in those meetings?
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<hallyn> ShootEmUp: play duke nukem
<hallyn> robbiew: ^ over to you
<ShootEmUp> hallyn, what?
 * robbiew wonders why he covers the one topic he doesn't do :P
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> so we made great progress on work items
<ShootEmUp> charlie-tca!
<robbiew> lots of Done's, Postpones, and dropped
<robbiew> all goodness
<robbiew> I haven't checked bugs yet
<robbiew> but I usually know of the serious ones...from the irc pings and email
<robbiew> that's it!
<SpamapS> Thanks Mr. Narwhal!
<ShootEmUp> I have a topic to debate
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<SpamapS> ShootEmUp: if its not related to the current topic please hold it until Open Discussion
<andreserl> ShootEmUp: wait till the end of the meeting for Open Discussion :)
<ShootEmUp> okay
<hallyn> didn't actually see hggdh today, is he around?
<hallyn> guess not, moving on, i know smb is here :)
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> So I did some little stuff last week but have no paper records, hence I am not sure anymore what that was
<smb> Currently working on bug 686692
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 686692 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "natty kernel does not boot on ec2 t1.micro" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/686692
<smb> which I can locally reproduce but not yet found a final solution
<Daviey> smb, Is that the bug that only happend on t1.micro i386's?
<smb> just that it would boot if the mem= is a multiple of 4
<smb> Daviey, t1.micro but I believe both i386 and x86_64
<Daviey> ah
<smb> They are doing something different with memory layout too. Just not sure this is just something that happens too or related
<hallyn> any questions for smb?
<smb> Other thing I pushed for SRU in lucid is the paper over approach for bug 614853
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 614853 in linux-ec2 (Ubuntu) "kernel panic divide error: 0000 [#1] SMP" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/614853
<smb> To keep until we found/got a real solution
<Daviey> smb, What nasty effects does it have?
<smb> The current patch just avoids the divide by zero. While the variable in question is supposed to never be zero in the first place
<smb> So I sent two patches for sru, the one preventing the divide and one sort of debug patch to yell when the variable is set/left zero
<smb> smoser, Are you arround?
<smoser> o/
<smoser> yeah, smb, i agree with that.
<smb> Just saw your bug 704022
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 704022 in linux (Ubuntu) "xen_emul_unplug=unnecessary on kernel cmdline is required in ec2 hvm" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/704022
<smoser> one thing i had considered would have been to just add the debugging bit, and let it crash
<smb> Though I am a bit confused by the logs as the ones which say with option and working seem to contain drops into busybox as well
<smoser> even with info like "if you see this message, please add to bug  at https://launcpad.net/..."
<smoser> smb i may have uploaded incorrect (un-trimmed) logs
<smoser> but it does fail
<smb> smoser, What made me rethink a bit is that those affected people seem to run production severs with that and so maybe a avoid and complain is preferable
<smoser> yeah, so the reboot with argument i sjust not trimmed
<smoser> so it contains the previous boot log (thats why the busybox in the middle of it)
<smoser> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/62372677/restart-with-unplug-arg.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpadlibrarian.net/62372677/restart-with-unplug-arg.txt
<smb> smoser, Ah ok. That xvd* does not show up without the option is ok. Though one would think the sd* devices should always
<smoser> smb, yeah, i agree, getting people actually fixed is good, but if you fix the problem you'll never get debug info
<smoser> they wont send it becuase they wont know they have a problem
<hallyn> so do you want it changed?  (let's either make a decision, or move offline?)
 * SpamapS wonders if this couldn't be discussed further offline?
 * SpamapS apologizes for smashing hallyn's toes
<smoser> i can defer to smb's decision.
<hallyn> grrr
<hallyn> ok - any other questions for smb?
<hallyn> (or from)
<hallyn> if not,
<smb> I am done
<hallyn> thanks, smb
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<hallyn> sommer is not around
<Daviey> :(
<hallyn> yup
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<hallyn> kim0 is also not around
<hallyn> and so, we move on to
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<andreserl> ShootEmUp: your turn
<ShootEmUp> should ubuntu try to look like windows or Mac or neither?
<andreserl> lol
<SpamapS> ShootEmUp: you may want to ask that in #ubuntu
<hallyn> like my old palm V
<andreserl> ShootEmUp: indeed. This is the Server team meeting
<andreserl> lol
<ShootEmUp> okay
<hallyn> SpamapS: for some reason i thougth there was something you wanted to discuss?
<SpamapS> why does everybody always assume I want to TALK? ;)
<SpamapS> no I'm good
<hallyn> :)
<Daviey> wow, first time for everything! :)
<hallyn> anybody?  going once...
<zul> SpamapS: because you are a chatty cathy
<SpamapS> zul: whatever you nervous nelly
<hallyn> going twice...
<zul> SpamapS: i know what you are but what am i?
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<hallyn> hm, the meeting page says feb 1
<hallyn> i dont' think that's right
<hallyn> I would have assumed:
<zul> 25th
<hallyn> Tuesday, January 25 2011 16:00 UTC
<hallyn> ok, another almost action-free meeting.
<hallyn> thanks all
<hallyn> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:32.
<andreserl> \o/
<apw> o/
<jjohansen> \o
<cking> \o  yes I'm here
<smb> \o
 * tgardner waves
 * ara waves
<sforshee> \o
 * smb looks expectingly at bjf 
<cking> not a US holiday today too?
<bjf> 09:59 by my clock
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf> Nothing new
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<bjf> no JFo today?
<bjf> guess not, moving on
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<apw> o/
<apw> Nothing to report here.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * 0.21.0 now in Natty universe.
<cking>  * wmi test: handle table not found error more gracefully.
<cking>  * report off by one error on month in date.
<cking>  * add --disassemble-aml.
<cking>  * fix null pointer segfault.
<cking>  * syntaxcheck test: add 40 advice lines on specific error output.
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<smb> Done.
<smb> [ACTION] bjf remove from agenda
<smb> ..
<bjf> i'll remove from agenda
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<bjf> * The kernel team will take responsibility for setting the verification-needed tags on bugs at the beginning of the verification phase
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<ara> o/
<ara> Nothing to report here, we will test the -proposed kernel once the verification is done
<ara> we will report on status on the meeting next week
<ara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<apw> 16 of the 19 personal patch reviews are now done.  Some work remains on compcache which is now superceeded by zram in staging, but some userspace work is required to switch to it.  Nothing else of interest occuring.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<apw> Master kernels are now at v2.6.37 and remain stable.  OMAP3 kernels now switched over to the distro master branch and being used in ARM images.  ti-omap4 is a little behind the curve and being investigated.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<jjohansen> Currently working with light testing, if you don't mind losing your data you can play with it (it doesn't handle unexpected stuff yet)
<jjohansen> current issues, that need to be resolved
<jjohansen>  - code cleanup
<jjohansen>  - name collisions
<jjohansen>     - actual fs name
<jjohansen>       - multiple uses of same name from different directories
<jjohansen>          - dentry tag on lookup
<jjohansen>     - could use inode tag (force verifying for all names on tagged file)
<jjohansen>   - Graceful fallback
<jjohansen>     - should fallback to shortname if xattr is missing, currently fill_dir fails
<jjohansen>     - should fallback to something that earlier versions of ecryptfs can
<jjohansen>       support (ie. a valid shortname).
<jjohansen>       - currently Fill dir, detects unencrypted names with leading // as
<jjohansen>         shortname tag
<jjohansen> - need to expand current testing into a full regression test suite
<jjohansen> ..
<tgardner> jjohansen, do you have a branch somewhere for this work?
<jjohansen> ah yeah
<apw> make sure its on something which is backed up! :)
<jjohansen> kernel.ubuntu.com/jj/ubuntu-natty.git
<jjohansen> give me a sec to push the latest up
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<apw> The main distro kernel is now at 2.6.37-12.26 (v2.6.37 final based).  We are still in an extended merge window for v2.6.38-rc1, but testing of Ubuntu kernels based on this is looking ok so far.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || dapper   linux-source-2.6.15               || 2.6.15-55.90         || 2.6.15-55.91         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || hardy    linux                             || 2.6.24-28.81         || 2.6.24-28.84         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || karmic   linux-ec2                         || 2.6.31-307.23        || 2.6.31-307.24        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.31-22.70         || 2.6.31-22.71         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || lucid    linux-ec2                         || 2.6.32-311.23        || 2.6.32-312.24        ||    5 ||        5 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-lts-backport-maverick  || 2.6.35.22.34         || 2.6.35.23.35         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-lts-backport-maverick       || 2.6.35-22.34~lucid1  || 2.6.35-23.41~lucid1  ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.34.1               || 1.34.3               ||    2 ||        2 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.32-27.49         || 2.6.32-28.55         ||    5 ||        5 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.32.27.29         || 2.6.32.28.31         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || maverick linux-meta                        || 2.6.35.24.28         || 2.6.35.25.31         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-firmware                    ||                      || 1.38.3               ||    3 ||        3 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.35-24.42         || 2.6.35-25.43         ||   20 ||       18 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> * New kernels were uploaded and published to -proposed for all supported releases. We are now in the verification phase for these kernels.
<bjf> * There is a regression in Maverick proposed  having to do with Radeo graphics ( bug 703553 ) that we'll be looking into.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 703553 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "After upgrade to linux-image-2.6.35-25 graphics are broken" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/703553
<bjf> * The kernel currently in -proposed for Lucid is the one which we anticipate being released for the .2 release.
<bjf> ..
<apw> o/
<bjf> apw, go
<apw> bjf is that TiP the cound that verified needs to get to
<apw> ie is that showing a very good verification percentage ?
<apw> ..
<bjf> apw, yes and yes, most of the bugs were in fact fixed by upstream stable release
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<cking> what does TiP mean?
<ara> Test in Proposed?
<tgardner> o/
<bjf> tgardner, go
<tgardner> once you upload to canonical-kernel-team, do you have to annoy an archive admin to pocket copy?
<bjf> tgardner, yes
<tgardner> as there is no queue
<tgardner> hmmm
<tgardner> ..
<apw> that is similar to the normal need to hastle an AA to source NEW the package anyhow
<bjf> tgardner, yes not the best of situations
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:18.
<ara> OK, thanks all!
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> wendar: pong
<wendar> stgraber: seems we're the only two
<stgraber> apparently
<stgraber> anyway, the only thing I really had for this meeting was the question about the version number
<wendar> yes, we got a reply from the techboard on that
<stgraber> cool, so we'll be able to get at least one of the apps uploaded to extra then
<stgraber> that was the only thing I was waiting for to get suspended sentence uploaded
<wendar> 2.5.1-0extras10.10.1
<wendar> so <appversion>-<debianversion>-extras<ubuntuversion>.<packageversion>
<wendar> where debian version is expected to be 0
<stgraber> right
<stgraber> also, one I push that to the PPA, it's going to get synced to extra and everyone will see it
<stgraber> what was the magic part about the icon or something like that ?
<stgraber> or the screenshots
<stgraber> I seem to remember that we need to get a branch merged or something
<wendar> it's in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/Metadata
<stgraber> ok, and who do I need to ping to get the branch merged ?
<stgraber> because I'm going to upload the package in the next 5 minutes or so, meaning it'll appear in the next 24 hours, so we'll need the branch merged before that
<stgraber> he proposed the merge when he sent the application, but my guess is that the branch shouldn't be merged until we give the app a +1
<stgraber> but should be merged before we upload
<wendar> that I don't know (first time through the process)
<wendar> I believe mvo has access
<wendar> otherwise, I'd check in with stuart
<wendar> (on UK timezone, though)
<stgraber> I see it's commercial-ppa-uploaders
<stgraber> checking who's in there
<wendar> ah, robbiew is on there, he's online now
<stgraber> ok, I poked tumbleweed about one last detail, then I'll wait for someone to merge that branch and will upload to the PPA
<wendar> great, thanks!
<wendar> I'll send a note to the ARB on version numbers
<stgraber> ok
<wendar> looks like we have one new application
<wendar> no other progress on other applications
<fagan> hey all sorry for being late
<fagan> I looked into the code of the app that I said I would before christmas and its pretty big
<fagan> id say they should go to universe rather than extras
<wendar> that was 4dtris?
<wendar> stgraber: if you're still on, 3 of us is enough to vote
<fagan> wendar: yeah it was
<fagan> its like 20 source files of C
<wendar> fagan: ack!
<fagan> so its pretty complex
<fagan> I went through it and its ok though
<wendar> well, it's a bit of a judgement call
<fagan> there isnt anything harmful in there but I think in terms of complexity we should pass it on to universe
<wendar> do you feel comfortable with the level of security review?
<wendar> yes
<fagan> well i didnt see anything bad
<fagan> im very confident that its fine security wise
<kees> 18:14 < wendar> so <appversion>-<debianversion>-extras<ubuntuversion>.<packageversion>
<kees> 18:14 < wendar> where debian version is expected to be 0
<kees> should be no dash between <debianversion> and extras:
<kees> <upstream version>-<debianversion == 0>extras<ubuntu release version>.<packaging version>
<wendar> kees: yah, I caught that when I reposted to ARB list
<kees> (just saw that in backscroll)
<kees> wendar: okay, cool :)
<wendar> kees: the "for example" was right, I just got caught up in all the angle brackets in the detailed explanation :)
<kees> hehe
<kees> yeah
<wendar> fagan: ENOSTGRABER, I think we'll have to wait until next meeting to vote on 4dtris
<fagan> yeah
<fagan> that sounds fair
<wendar> fagan: but, it's worthwhile to post a summary of your recommendation to the ARB list
<fagan> sure
<wendar> that way we can talk about it between now and then
<fagan> yeah I think its a judgement call if its accepted or not
<fagan> depending on our view on large complex programs
<wendar> yeah, we don't have a hard measure of "complexity"
<wendar> (one of the things we talked about at UDS)
<wendar> so, we'll make our best judgement
<wendar> 20 C files is certainly a lot less than, say, the CPython interpreter
<wendar> lines of code may enter into it
<wendar> and dependencies (stand-alone/using system libraries/installing its own libraries)
<wendar> I'll take on a task to review the new application before next meeting
<wendar> call that a wrap on the ARB meeting
<fagan> cool thanks wendar
<wendar> fagan: do you want to be meeting chair next meeting?
<fagan> wendar: sure
<wendar> fagan: cool, I'll put you in the agenda
<fagan> awesome
<ShootEmUp> Hi everyone
<paultag> sorry I'm late, guys
<paultag> Oh wait, I'm not
<paultag> I think this is the first meeting I've been on-time for.
<czajkowski> paultag: you're early you special lad!
<pleia2> just a reflex to apologize for being late? :)
<paultag> pleia2: yeah!
<czajkowski> not sure the others may remember though.. no mail was sent out till um about 4 mins ago
<leogg> thank you for the reminder czajkowski :)
<czajkowski> not sure we actualy have a meeting tbh folks
<czajkowski> one thing on the agenda
<czajkowski> and that was dealt with via email
<pleia2> thank you for all your awesome work, loco council! :)
<paultag> pleia2: :)
<leogg> pleia2: :)
<czajkowski> :)
<popey> o/
<paultag> Well, since we're all here
<paultag> anyone have anything to say?
<czajkowski> II've mailed team re re approvals
<czajkowski> this cycle we only have a few
<czajkowski> 	so we could do with picking a few from early next cycle as that list is massve
<czajkowski> just a thought...
<czajkowski> also paultag mentioned about coming up with some policies to help teams which would be ideal given the last few months with helping teams
<leogg> yes, that's a great idea
<paultag> I can formalize a few of them. Do we have any kind of RFC process for loco-contacts?
<czajkowski> we have the guidelines page which is great
<czajkowski> but I am noticing a good few teams having issues and I'd love to do more to help
<czajkowski> but it'd be nice if we had something written down so we can get it translated
<paultag> +1
<czajkowski> simple things like if you're struggling come to us we cna help, for team elections if you need mediate  perhaps have 2 or 3 leaders if you cant reach a vote or if the team is small
<czajkowski> share the roles/tasks
<czajkowski> but some teams go the other extrme and that I do worry as it seems to end up with them in lots of hassle
<czajkowski> aka unapproved or inhouse fighting
<huats> eveing everyone
<paultag> 'lo huats
<paultag> huats: just chatting, making use of this chance where we're all online
<huats> oh realy ?
<czajkowski> the facotid in here is helping btw
<czajkowski> *factoid
<huats> hello czajkowski
<czajkowski> leogg: paultag popey any comments?
<czajkowski> if not I'm going to go back to dyingsick here!
<paultag> czajkowski: hahaha
<paultag> I have a comment --
<paultag> If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
<popey> nope
<leogg> :)
<paultag> Oh, on topic? this sounds great, and I think we should move forward with it
<czajkowski> right love you and leave you all nn
<paultag> night! I'll stay on if anyone comes about. Don't think we need logs or anything, aye?
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-19
<jhunt> barry: am I causing sound problems?
<robbiew> o/
<cjwatson> hi
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jhunt> hallo
<robbiew> so...let's see
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Apologies
<MootBot> New Topic:  Apologies
<robbiew> mvo
<robbiew> Keybuk
<jhunt> :)
<ShootEmUp> hello everyone
<robbiew> ev?
<jhunt> soz - forgot to mention that ev contacted me and said he wouldn't be able to attend.
<jhunt> he's involved in a design meeting.
<cjwatson> ah, that's where he's been today :)
<robbiew> design meeting?  bah!
<robbiew> :P
<robbiew> ok
<robbiew> psurbhi is also MIA
<csurbhi> o/
<robbiew> hey
<csurbhi> hey
<robbiew> I thought you were csurbhi internally
<robbiew> psurbhi externally
<robbiew> now I'm confused :/
<robbiew> lol
<csurbhi> :D
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> barry: ?
<barry> not much really since the rally.  i was sick the last few days.
<robbiew> loser!
<robbiew> lol
<barry> ;)
<robbiew> doko?
<doko_> libreoffice 3.0rc3 update, upload to natty, natty arm test rebuild, evaluating gcc-4.6 test rebuild, fixing build failures, toolchain updates, eglibc sru's
<doko_> done
<robbiew> thnx!
<robbiew> cjwatson: ?
<cjwatson> done: fixed two of the graphical boot problems we identified at the rally, and will upload once I have a chance to reboot and test it; d-i upstream moved to git, so rebasing loads of bzr branches - about halfway through; lts-backport-maverick support in lucid installer for 10.04.2 (#607657); working on live USB upgrade bug (#591207)
<cjwatson> todo: 10.04.2 administrivia; plymouth framebuffer-switch handling; thorough console-setup upgrade testing
<cjwatson> --
<cjwatson> oh, and those two bugs have the most time-consuming test setups EVER.  just sayin'
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> cjwatson: so I have an desktop with nvidia (amd64), and I've lost my console...all garbled...is that known?
<robbiew> should I file a bug?
<robbiew> the console's been gone for awhile...desktop is fine, but i can't ctrl-alt-F# to anything
<robbiew> scrambled at the top
<robbiew> ...oh and I use an HDMI connection
<cjwatson> I'm not sure, grab me after the meeting (or possibly tomorrow, I probably ought to leave shortly after the meeting) and I can walk you through some things to narrow it down
<robbiew> I figured nvidia binary driver got fubar'd
<robbiew> cool
<robbiew> jhunt: ?
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Grub2BootFramebuffer/Whiteboard roughly summarises what we know so far
<robbiew> ack
<jhunt> Re-raised upstart "override" feature merge request after updating as a
<jhunt> result of Scotts initial review (required some delicate bzr surgery to
<jhunt> pick apart all the changes). Pushed a branch containing non-feature
<jhunt> changes (typos) to Scott for review.  Started playing with launchpadlib.
<jhunt> Had a couple of Upstart customer queries to deal with. Now working on
<jhunt> job visualization feature and making good progress. Plan to continue
<jhunt> visualization work this week, do some bzr branch magic for upstart,
<jhunt> fully test lp:#672177 and then get approval for it, get to work on the
<jhunt> bug backlog and if time keep an eye on the mailing lists :)
<jhunt> EOT
 * cjwatson â¥ launchpadlib
<robbiew> jhun: thnx!
<robbiew> csurbhi: ?
<csurbhi> working on mvo's btrfs snapshot on upgrade - adding support in the installer. testing the work
<csurbhi> after this is done, this week also plan to resume work on event driven initramfs
<csurbhi> done
<robbiew> csurbhi: did you catch the email from cjwatson regarding the umount bug?
<jhunt> robbiew: was that a joke? :)
<csurbhi> robbiew, no i havent
<robbiew> jhunt: nah...just a typo
<jhunt> robbiew: 'jhun' :) You've been reading my name badges again! :)
<csurbhi> i have been off my main machine
<robbiew> ah
<csurbhi> shall look at it before logging off today
<robbiew> that explains the missed 1:1 ;)
<cjwatson> csurbhi: it was on private-platfound
<robbiew> csurbhi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sysvinit/+bug/579858
<cjwatson> FWIW, the lucid SRU freeze is tomorrow, so if you can't make it, please let me know and I'll try to find somebody else
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 579858 in util-linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "umount segfault on shutdown when unmounting autofs mountpoint" [High,Triaged]
<csurbhi> cjwatson, i will have a look
<cjwatson> thanks
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty
<robbiew> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-natty-alpha-2.html  not that bad
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-natty-alpha-2.html  not that bad
<robbiew> and http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html looks great
<cjwatson> TBH this cycle I've been doing really badly at tracking the subcycle graphs, and instead just working with the full-cycle one
<robbiew> I think that's okay really...as we don't have much subcycle dependent stuff
<robbiew> maybe RnR in software-center
<jhunt> robbiew: btw - as discussed with cjwatson, although the override work is done for upstart, it is still "INPROGRESS" as needs review from keybuk.
<robbiew> ack
<doko_> should add build failures to burn down charts, maybe then somebody is fixing these ...
<cjwatson> I've fixed a few :P
<robbiew> doko_: I think skaet can put the right amount of attention on that
<cjwatson> (not that many though, admittedly)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> I've already sent mail about the handful of 10.04.2 bugs...not that bad
<robbiew> but we should try to get them fixed if at all possible
<robbiew> also been looking at http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-foundations-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<robbiew> specifically mvo's bugs
<robbiew> been going through the REALLY old ones...with no comments in 2 years
<robbiew> checking to see if they are still valid
<cjwatson> yeah, I'd hoped to look at those at the rally but we didn't find time
<robbiew> no worries
<doko_> heh, I just closed a 5 year old one
<marjo> doko_ thx!
<robbiew> I've stayed away from cjwatson's....I know how you get
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> plus your count isn't as insane
<robbiew> mvo had +140 bugs assigned
<cjwatson> hah
<cjwatson> I go through them now and again and unassign a few - a lot of the assignments are legacy and I'd definitely like to have a usable assigned-to list
<csurbhi> i have a bunch of mdadm fixes that i had put on launchpad and asked users to test
<csurbhi> a few have responded on that
<robbiew> csurbhi: \o/ sweet
<robbiew> on that note
<csurbhi> i was wondering if there was a better way of testing it
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News
<barry> 60Mbps/6Mbps :)
<cjwatson> csurbhi: giant pile of virtual machines?
<cjwatson> does depend rather on the bug ...
<csurbhi> cjwatson, its a lot of bugs together
<csurbhi> and the fix applies for maverick
<csurbhi> and a few of them for natty
<csurbhi> since natty has a much later version of mdadm than maverick
<csurbhi> or lucid
<csurbhi> and the fixes are basically backported for a lot of mdadm bugs applicable to the older packages
<csurbhi> and very few for the newer one
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
<robbiew> no good news :/
<robbiew> so...so...sad
<robbiew> lol
<csurbhi> kept my package here: https://edge.launchpad.net/~csurbhi/+archive/mdadm-autoassembly for mdadm-2.7.1 for anyone to try out
<cjwatson> csurbhi: I'm just suggesting that if it's not a subtle timing-dependent bug or something then a big pile of VMs can be a much easier way to test behaviour with odd combinations of disks than many other approaches
<cjwatson> does depend on having reasonably fast virtualisation though
<cjwatson> but that's what I do when fixing RAID bugs and similar in GRUB
<csurbhi> i tested it on KVM.. but was hoping for wider testing
<cjwatson> right, sometimes all you can do is get basic assurance for yourself in kvm and then upload and see who screams
<csurbhi> ok, i guess i will request a merge this week then :) its been a while since i posted the ppa :)
<cjwatson> (note: this approach works better when it isn't right at the end of the release cycle ;-) )
<csurbhi> thanks!
<csurbhi> right :)
<robbiew> cjwatson: heh...+100
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> okey dokey
<robbiew> no reason to waste time ;)
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:29.
<robbiew> thnx all!
<csurbhi> thanks robbiew :)
<barry> thanks robbiew
<jhunt> cheers.... from sunny England :)
<highvoltage> Hello
 * charlie-tca waves at highvoltage 
 * dinda waves
<mgariepy> hello
<JackyAlcine> When's the accessibility meeting?
<charlie-tca> JackyAlcine: 21:00 UTC, in #ubuntu-accessibility
<JackyAlcine> Thanks :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-20
<Lynx|2> anyone having flash problem in 11.04 natty?
<ari-tczew> Lynx|2: better place for ask will be #ubuntu+1
<Lynx|2> k, thx
<rsalveti> :
<elStefano84> Heya
<MrChrisDruif> Ayatana meeting?
<MrChrisDruif> Anyone?
<MrChrisDruif> Is the ayatana meeting not today and now?
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> Who's here?
<davidm> G'day NCommander
 * soren chuckles
 * janimo waves
<NCommander> morning davidm
<janimo> hello everyone
<ogra> moo
<davidm> NCommander, it got even colder here!!
<NCommander> No wiki page folks, as the wiki broke everytime I tried to make one with a 500 error
<NCommander> davidm: move to Oregon :-)
<ogra> you wrote something different in your mail :P
<ogra> it said you had 500 errors *g*
<NCommander> yeah, one every time I tried :-P
<ogra> was a funny read
<NCommander> Hence errors
<ogra> we should have a standing item for unity-2d from now on
<ogra> until its in the images
<NCommander> ogra: k
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<ogra> shudder
<ogra> i guess we all fell back due to unity
<NCommander> [topic] persia to handle namespace renaming (co)
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to handle namespace renaming (co)
<ogra> which namespace was that ?
<NCommander> wiki namespace from Mobile to ARM
<ogra> ah, nice
<ogra> seems persia isnt here though
 * NCommander pokes him
<rsalveti> argh, fighting with nm-applet at natty
<rsalveti> but finally on :-)
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to fix workitem links
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to fix workitem links
<NCommander> Did this during the last meeting template
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.htmlhttp://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.htmlhttp://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<NCommander> oops
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
 * ogra is still not intrested in these ... 
<jo-erlend> is there any news regarding OMAP3?
<ogra> release team only cares for canonical-arm items
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html
<NCommander> bah
<NCommander> sorry about that
<NCommander> laptop broke
<NCommander> ogra: damn it, this is the Ubuntu ARM meeting
<NCommander> Will you stop posting that link?
<ogra> NCommander, fine, make the release team care about something else then
<ogra> no
<NCommander> ogra: and if the release team only cares about Canonical ARM work items, then I'll fix it
<ogra> go ahead
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs
<ogra> bugs ?
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> workitems
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> sorry, still early here
<ogra> bugs is another issue
<ogra> but we'll get to that
<ogra> and note that i wont run around after people that dont report for the release team report
<ogra> i.e. people that have WIs on ubuntu-armel
<ogra> which will constantly make us look bad in the release meeting
<ogra> NCommander, make davidm tell me to stop caring for canonical-arm and i will
<ogra> but i will not start running after the community to make us look better, preparing the release report already takes half a day
<ogra> anyway, move
<GrueMaster> I'm looking at the two Alpha 2 workitem links side by side, and not seeing much of a difference.
<ogra> GrueMaster, apart from the fact that nobody maintains the tracker
<ogra> which you can see by the broken trendline etc
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney)
<ogra> anyway, nothing to discuss now
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney)
<ogra> NCommander, buglist ?
<NCommander> oh righ
<ogra> :)
<NCommander> [topic] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<ogra> GrueMaster, proposed an new buglist
<ogra> which is based on the armel tag
<ogra> that bit goes better with apport, but sadly also shows *all* linaro bugs
<ogra> note that the difference is 160 vs 18 bugs
<rsalveti> NCommander: please also put my name on the kernel status
<ogra> between these two lists
<NCommander> ogra: as the ubuntu-armel team, we should be looking at those bugs instead what is easy to look at as well. Just because its on the team list doesn't mean we have to fix it
<rsalveti> put an action item for it, you said you'd do it at the last meeting
<NCommander> rsalveti: ah, whoops, sorry :-)
<GrueMaster> I am really out of ideas on how to get a better list of open bug reports out of launchpad.  If someone here has a workable solution, please step up and make a suggestion, not a complaint.
<ogra> NCommander, so you want to start triaging linaro image tools bugs, linaro kernel package bugs etc ?
<ogra> GrueMaster, ubuntu-armel subscribed bugs would be the right thing
<NCommander> ogra: the tool should be limited to the ubuntu distro, then all bugs tagged armel
<GrueMaster> ubuntu-armel doesn't get added until the bugs are triaged.
<ogra> NCommander, right, but such a feature doesnt exists at all
<ogra> GrueMaster, which is fine since the list is supposed to track "subscribed" bugs
<ogra> which is usually after triage
<rsalveti> we usually just want to track triaged bugs
<ogra> right
<ogra> err
<rsalveti> but would be good to have the general picture, and the GrueMaster link works for that
<GrueMaster> And who is supposed to subscribe these bugs to team members or the team in general?
<ogra> s/sbscribed/assigned/
<ogra> we usually dont assign the team
<ogra> but subscribe
<ogra> so subscribed is the right thing to look for
<NCommander> ogra: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=armel
<GrueMaster> I'll try to get another list with team subscribed bugs.  This list helps me at least do my job.
<NCommander> just saying, that list does exist
<ogra> NCommander, all linaro packages are in ubuntu
<ogra> it doesnt
<ogra> that doesnt filter out linaro
<ogra> it even is less filtered than GrueMasters list above
<ogra> 220 bugs vs 160
<ogra> the only proper list would be ubuntu-armel subscribed
<ogra> it think we should filter on both ...
<ogra> armel tag and ubuntu-armel subscribed
<ogra> GrueMaster, can you ask bdmurray to add such a filter ?
<ogra> should be trivial
<GrueMaster> I'll try, if it is even possible to search for subscribers.
<ogra> i think it is via launchpadlib
<ogra> so assuming bdmurray uses that in his script he should be able to add such a filter
<ogra> move ?
<rsalveti> launchpadlib should do the job
 * ogra tickles NCommander 
<ogra> wake up ;)
<NCommander> ogra: sorry
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (rsalveti, cooloney)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (rsalveti, cooloney)
<rsalveti> same kernel for omap 4, no other updates from TI
<ogra> there was an upload today
<ogra> with fixes from cooloney
<rsalveti> cooloney worked at the mem instability issues, and could reproduce it with latest linux-omap tree
<ogra> only minor stuff though
<rsalveti> probably meta
<ogra> i think naming issues etc
<rsalveti> then he fixed the linux-tools package
<ogra> and doc updates
<rsalveti> to properly probe the correct package for omap 4
<ogra> and that, yeah
<rsalveti> as the name is different
<rsalveti> omap 3 still needs to be properly tested
<rsalveti> but we still don't have images for it
<ogra> should be possible with the next image
<ogra> we will tomorrow
 * ogra will report in image status
<GrueMaster> And I no longer have a beagleXM at the moment for testing.
<rsalveti> sure, once we get it, would be good to test it asap
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: do you know if davidm already ordered another one for you?
<GrueMaster> New board ordered, status unknown.
<ogra> will be shipped after the pandas :P
<rsalveti> davidm: any updates on that?
<davidm> I ordered a replacement at the rally
<rsalveti> cool, should arrive soon probably
<davidm> No update from vendor as yet
<rsalveti> I can help testing it once we have images
<GrueMaster> Web indicated March timeframe.
<ogra> lol
<ogra> now that will be helpful
<rsalveti> it seems there's a bug related with the mmc driver, as sometimes I get some i/o errors
<rsalveti> lol
<rsalveti> linaro probably got a lot of those, maybe we could ask one from them
<janimo> rsalveti, only on arm?
<GrueMaster> rsalveti: on omap3 or 4?
<rsalveti> only on omap 3
<janimo> I get those with my broken sdcard
<ogra> jo-erlend, you had questions regarding omap3 ... now is probably the time to ask them ;)
<rsalveti> I could reproduce with 2 cards already, but didn't spend much time on that
<GrueMaster> Before the end of the week last week, I successfully upgraded from Maverick to Natty on my XM.
<GrueMaster> So that is something.
<rsalveti> cool
<ogra> yeah
<jo-erlend> well. I was just wondering if there were any news. :)
<ogra> jo-erlend, we'll have images soon
<rsalveti> jo-erlend: well, we'll start producing image soon
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra> not sure how well they will work
<rsalveti> kernel is based on upstream
<jo-erlend> sorry if I interrupted earlier. :)
<rsalveti> so 37 now and soon 38 something
<ogra> since as you can see above they havent been tested yet
<ogra> but we should have something by alpha2
<rsalveti> tested with new x-loader and new u-boot
<rsalveti> so if we get a working kernel, should be fine
<ogra> great
<jo-erlend> I'm happy to test, if someone tells me what and how to test.
<rsalveti> jo-erlend: what hardware do you have in hands?
<ogra> we'll have dailies at cdimage.ubuntu.com soon
<jo-erlend> IGEPv2.
<ogra> oh, i dont think we support that OOTB
<rsalveti> jo-erlend: cool, I believe we'll soon have an x-loader for that
<rsalveti> once the patches are merged upstream
<ogra> you will need to replace x-loader at least
<rsalveti> probably
<rsalveti> jo-erlend: will ping you back then
<jo-erlend> great.
<ogra> NCommander, action ^^^^
<ogra> :)
<rsalveti> :-)
<rsalveti> NCommander is generally so fast, what's happening today?
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra> GrueMaster, can you put up some really loud heavy metal to keep him awake ?
<ogra> :D
<GrueMaster> It is 7:32am here.  Lack of caffeine.
<NCommander> ogra: having laptop issues
<GrueMaster> And no, as that would keep me awake too.
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<rsalveti> slacker
<ogra> *g*
<GrueMaster> Continuing to do update testing due to lack of images since 1/12.
<GrueMaster> (12/1 for you european folk)
<ogra> we should change the order of the standing items
<ogra> so i can report on image stuff before QA
<rsalveti> yup
<GrueMaster> Installed unity-2d yesterday.  No icons as of yet.  Still looking into.
<rsalveti> NCommander: ^
<ogra> GrueMaster, unity will have its own topic
 * GrueMaster pauses for aob items to be handled.
<GrueMaster> You asked for QA status.  Thisis my QA status.
<ogra> yep
<ogra> that was no complaint, just a hint
<NCommander> GrueMaster: thought that was on ARM only, not x86
<jo-erlend> rsalveti, you mentioned once that you were going to have a look at Ubuntu ARM on Nokia N900. Did that result in anything?
<ogra> jo-erlend, can we keep that for AOB?
<rsalveti> jo-erlend: latest update I made I got a working kernel for it, just lack proper userspace hacks
<rsalveti> jo-erlend: we can discuss this on #ubuntu-arm
<ogra> or that
<ogra> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra> would make sense to have unity-2d now
<NCommander> k
<ogra> ah, or that
<NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D
<MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D
<ogra> i just mean before images ;)
 * NCommander is unsure who to assign to it :-P
<ogra> so i spend the time since i got off the plane to make the packages properly installable
<ogra> as of yesterday they install fine, the metacity patch is in and working
<ogra> i only could test on x86 yet though
<rsalveti> cool
<NCommander> ogra: \o/
<ogra> and due to the places transition of unity 3d we dont have places and dash working atm
<rsalveti> I also worked with Kaleo yesterday to improve the performance of places and spread on panda
<ogra> dash looks good but is non functional currently
<GrueMaster> Odd that it works on i386 but not on armel.
<ogra> nor does the search function in the dash work
<ogra> that will all come back once places is fixed
<GrueMaster> The icons & places I mean.
<ogra> which is supposed to be done this week
<ogra> i dont know about the icons
<ogra> we need to research wwhy it doesnt work on arm
<rsalveti> ogra: when are you planning to change it to be the default one?
<ogra> for the packaging there are some tasks pending which i'm working on
<ogra> fixes of the copyright and branches in control is my first task
<ogra> i'm 80% through .., but need to talk to NCommander (off meeting) about some commits that werent uploaded
<ogra> then we need to rename the session to follow the new natty scheme
<ogra> desktop team asked for that
<ogra> after that we are supposed to merge unity-2d-default-settings and unity-2d
<ogra> once these three are done i'll file MIRs
<rsalveti> cool
<ogra> and see that we get them approved
<rsalveti> are we planning to use it by default at alpha 2?
<ogra> once thats done we can change the seeds
<rsalveti> mir would take some time, but maybe possible
<ogra> depends if i can finish the three tasks and the MIRs before A2
<ogra> cross your fingers
<ogra> MIR team is slow
<rsalveti> yup :-(
<ogra> i expect to have the packaging bits done by monday evening
<ogra> and MIRs files by tue.
<ogra> so if we can make the MIR team work fast the packages could be in on wed. which would give us a chance for A2
<rsalveti> that would be awesome
<ogra> there is a liuvecd-rootfs change required to use the new session by default
<rsalveti> omap 3 back and now new interface
<ogra> i dont really want to do that before i know the packages are in
<ogra> else we end up without any default session
<ogra> post that we have to care for the efl bits to be demoted to universe btw
<ogra> thats all for unity-2d
<rsalveti> yeah
<rsalveti> NCommander: ^
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra> move ;)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra> janimo, ??
<janimo> some progress on haskell stuff
<ogra> i'm poked by mono gusy about banshee
<janimo> and on bugs I got reassigned from David S.
<ogra> but i think we wait for a new upstream here
<ogra> they claim that it works "since years"
<janimo> ogra, for banhshee I am waiting for 1.9.2 upload to natty to test
<rsalveti> janimo: what packages did you have issues with the builders?
<janimo> rsalveti, let me get the bug from LP
<ogra> who is David S. ?
<NCommander> ogra: David Sugar
<ogra> ah
<ogra> heh
<rsalveti> lol
<GrueMaster> ogra: The banshee upstream team reports that it works on x86.  They haven't tested on armel.
<janimo> rsalveti, https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-buildd/+bug/705344
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 705344 in Launchpad Auto Build System "builds which require more memory than a given buildd still try that buildd" [High,Triaged]
<ogra> GrueMaster, no, i got mails today where they claim it works on armel "since years"
<ogra> dunno really what to answer
<janimo> ogra, it may be specific to armv7
<NCommander> ogra: how about 'test it on panda'? :-)
<janimo> we'll see once we have 1.9.2
<ogra> or thumb2
<rsalveti> janimo: did you try those with your panda?
<GrueMaster> On armv7 or armv5?
<janimo> rsalveti, are we talking about banshee crash now?
<ogra> jcastro added me to the mail discussion
<GrueMaster> It fails on all of my arm platforms here.
<rsalveti> janimo: sorry, the ones with issues with the builders
<ogra> i'll ask about default compiler settings and which toolchain they used for that
<ogra> janimo, sorry mixed discussions above
<janimo> rsalveti, yes, most build fine on panda
 * ogra stays quiet
<GrueMaster> there's a first.  :p
 * NCommander enjoys this moment
<janimo> those build for a long time on x86 as well, the specific files which time out
<janimo> for a long time as in it takes long
<rsalveti> ogra: GrueMaster: how much memory do we have at the older builders?
<ogra> 512M
<janimo> I was hoping the new beagle boards would be better but I heard the existing ones also had 512 RAM
<rsalveti> hm, same as xm
<janimo> so not sure if they help
<ogra> and 4G of swamp
<ogra> err
<ogra> swap
<rsalveti> 30G actually
<ogra> 30 o_O
<ogra> oh
<janimo> so no progress until pandas
<rsalveti> hm, ok
 * GrueMaster thinks swamp was the correct term
<ogra> lamont set up some XMs in the datacenter
<ogra> i wonder if we could redirect a build to one of them
<rsalveti> yup, that's why janimo was happy to test with it
<ogra> but to my knowledge they are linaro exclusively
<ogra> and wer dont really want XMs in the pool permanently i think
<janimo> ogra, I actually saw regular builds on the new machines
<rsalveti> hm, I believe they are regular builds
<janimo> their names end in *ecae
<janimo> or somehting
<ogra> hmm
<janimo> *eace
<rsalveti> but sure, that should be replaced with pandas
<janimo> even one panda would help, but pointless to discuss now I guess
 * ogra checks https://launchpad.net/builders
<rsalveti> panda unfortunately is not stable atm
<ogra> GEEZ !!!
<rsalveti> because of the mem issues
<ogra> 15 builders !
<rsalveti> it helps, but not as good as it should
<rsalveti> yup
<rsalveti> and we're running out of time
<ogra> do we ?
<NCommander> ogra: me thinks lamont and the rest of IS had fun
<ogra> NCommander, rsalveti had
<rsalveti> for sure
<ogra> providing help to get them up
<rsalveti> I helped creating the images and etc
<rsalveti> any other point to discuss at this topic?
<GrueMaster> heh.  One of them is rebuilding the mdove kernel in natty.
<ogra> rsalveti, why are we running out of time ?
<ogra> i didnt get that point
<rsalveti> meeting
<ogra> we're only discussing universe builds, right
<ogra> oh
<ogra> i thought ftbfs builds :)
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra> NCommander, move !!!!!!
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra> yeah
<GrueMaster> broken.
<ogra> i worked on getting as mush as possible in sync the last days
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra> but there is one blocker
<rsalveti> ogra: what about the webkit blocker?
<ogra> RB ftbfs
<rsalveti> what's blocking that?
<ogra> and thus the old RB depends on old webkit
<rsalveti> oh, ok
<NCommander> (we're going to run over quickly, and I don't want to bump into the tech board(?) meeting that follows this one)
<ogra> seb128 promised me a new upstream RB upload for today
<ogra> but i havent seen that yet
<ogra> if it wont be in by end of my day, i'll unseed RB
<ogra> so we will have images tomorrow in any case
<ogra> NCommander, move
<NCommander> nice
<ogra> :)
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
 * NCommander ha snothing
<ogra> GrueMaster, had something
<NCommander> GrueMaster: ?
<GrueMaster> No, I was just waiting for the othe aob discussions to finish so I could continue QA status.
<ogra> NCommander, do something against your snothing :P
<NCommander> my what?
<NCommander> GrueMaster: GrueMaster we're almost out of time, anythng critical that has to be brought up?
<GrueMaster> nope.
<ogra> fnish
<ogra> :)
<rsalveti> go
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> three times
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:00.
<ogra> wow
<rsalveti> \o/
<ogra> thats timing
<NCommander> \o/
 * charlie-tca__ waves
<vinnl> Yay, I'm here :)
<charlie-tca__> Giving everyone a minute to arrive...
 * micahg waves
<charlie-tca__> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca__.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<charlie-tca__> May as well start in, huh?
<charlie-tca__> I am testing pidgin today, so I got two logins in some channels
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] a full agenda for today is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<MootBot> New Topic:  a full agenda for today is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Old business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
<charlie-tca__> I know someday we won't have anymore... :-)
<charlie-tca__> pleia2: here?
<pleia2> yep
<charlie-tca__> converting website to new logo and icons ??
<charlie-tca__> We got this one in work now, don't we?
<pleia2> yep, cody-somerville got me access to the site and gave me the link to where the drupal stuff is stored in bzr
<pleia2> I'm working with knome to get a design put together
<charlie-tca__> Great! Thank you for doing that.
<pleia2> sure thing
<beardygnome> hi, sorry i'm late
<charlie-tca__> knome is great when it comes to websites. He was talking about converting to wordpress, at one time, too.
 * charlie-tca__ waves at beardygnome 
 * beardygnome waves back at charlie-tca
<charlie-tca__> take the discussion about default launchers to the ML
<charlie-tca__> I sent the email out, with rather disappointing results so far.
<charlie-tca__> It may come down to deciding here what gets used, which is also fine. I think there is some resistance to change defaults.
<charlie-tca__> and, we are actively trying to get thorwil and ochosi together for the wallpaper colors
<beardygnome> brb
<charlie-tca__> I think that takes of old business, doesn't it?
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Team updates - Team Leads
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates - Team Leads
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca__> mr_pouit: are you available today?
<beardygnome> back
<charlie-tca__> hmm, well, Xfce announced the release of 4.8 on Sunday
<charlie-tca__> It is being packaged for Natty Narwhal first.
<charlie-tca__> micahg: did you and mr_pouit get together about backporting it to maverick and lucid?
<beardygnome> do you know how that's going, charlie-tca__?
<micahg> charlie-tca__: not yet
<charlie-tca__> beardygnome: near as I can tell, most of it is minor package updates, mainly language
<charlie-tca__> or translations
<charlie-tca__> I think if you are running Natty, you are real close to final 4.8
<beardygnome> I'm running Maverick at the moment, but I have a Natty VM that's a couple of weeks old
<beardygnome> are we OK to start running updates on the Natty image now?
<charlie-tca__> There is a ppa for 4.8 in lucid. I do not know the individual with it, nor is alexx2000 a member of any teams. He is new in launchpad as of October 17
<charlie-tca__> and I don't know how complete the ppa is for lucid
<charlie-tca__> anything else on development and packaging?
<charlie-tca__> oops, wrong date there. the person signed into launchpad January 17
<charlie-tca__> of 2010
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca__> We have kept the number of new bugs level this week.
<charlie-tca__> As for testing, the images installed one day this week only
<charlie-tca__> the running Natty installs are working fine, from what I can tell.
<charlie-tca__> I do run Natty on a 64bit system here
<charlie-tca__> We should start ISO testing for alpha2 about the 1st of February. Everyone is welcome to help with that
<charlie-tca__> any questions on bugs and triage?
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca__> vinnl or pleia2 : got any updates?
<vinnl> Not me, the only thing I'm doing is posting news messages when needed...
<charlie-tca__> We still a Marketing Lead, seriously, for Xubuntu.
<pleia2> same as above really, knome is thinking of redoing the whole site so we'll be creating a drupal template and presenting it
<charlie-tca__> vinnl: will need an announcement for alpha2 the 3rd
<pleia2> not sure about timeline though, he's out of town for at least a week right now
<charlie-tca__> Works for me
 * vinnl adds to agenda
<charlie-tca__> Send any prospective marketing leaders to me, please.
<pleia2> I've been working with the -adverts folks some lately, I'll be sure to mention that xubuntu could use a marketing lead if the opportunity arises
<charlie-tca__> thanks. We need all the help we can get
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
<charlie-tca__> Greybird and elementary fonts are looking good
<beardygnome> I'm running Greybird on my Maverick installs and liking it a lot
<charlie-tca__> We will be discussing the default launchers next week, for anyone interested.
<charlie-tca__> beardygnome: would you recommend it to anyone not yet on natty that wants to see it, then?
<beardygnome> it's definitely worth a lokk
<beardygnome> *look
<charlie-tca__> wOw - a chance to see the new theme, and you don't even need natty installed! and ochosi would appreciate any issues you find, even in Maverick.
<WhitePelican> what is greybird?
<charlie-tca__> The theme we plan to use in Natty Narwhal.
<WhitePelican> ah
<charlie-tca__> Learn all about it at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Natty
<beardygnome> here's a link to the latest (I think) version: http://shimmerproject.org/hg/bluebird-colors/rev/33411ef772ac
<beardygnome> [LINK] http://shimmerproject.org/hg/bluebird-colors/rev/33411ef772ac
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://shimmerproject.org/hg/bluebird-colors/rev/33411ef772ac
<charlie-tca__> Thanks, beardygnome
<charlie-tca__> any other questions about artwork?
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Announcements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
<charlie-tca__> I sent out the email about voting for Project Lead. Next week will have an vote for the Lead. Thanks to pleia2 for taking on the task of tracking the email votes and negative comments on it.
<charlie-tca__> Xfce 4.8 is out. It is not packaged for Maverick 10.10 or Lucid 10.04 at this time.
<charlie-tca__> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca__> Raise you hand, voice, etc if you have anything else we should discuss.
<charlie-tca__> micahg: go ahead
<micahg> Thunderbird 3.1.7 translations just uploaded to lucid-proposed, new translations for Gaelic, Galician, and Serbian
<micahg> will be in 10.04.2
<micahg> if anyone uses those languages and can test, comments welcome on bug 705028
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705028 in thunderbird-locales (Ubuntu Natty) "Update Thunderbird translations to 3.1.7" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705028
<charlie-tca__> That just gets better and better
<charlie-tca__> thank you for that information, micahg . Let's hope we get it tested
<charlie-tca__> and one more...
<charlie-tca__> Ubuntu User Days is coming Saturday January 29
<pleia2> oh right, the schedule hasn't been officially posted yet (confirming some final instructors) but I'll be doing the xfce part of a session on desktop options
<pleia2> (maco is covering gnome and kde)
<beardygnome> sounds good
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<charlie-tca> hm, well that takes care of my daily power outage
<charlie-tca> I apologize for that.
<pleia2> wb
<charlie-tca> Is there any other business
<beardygnome> are the natty repos down at the moment?
<beardygnome> i can't get my natty vm to upgrade
<charlie-tca> Not that I know, but they been on and off, too
<charlie-tca> I use the U.S. archives, and they have been working
<beardygnome> is there a newer iso available?  i have one from before xmas
<charlie-tca> did we end the meeting?
<pleia2> not yet :)
<maco> beardygnome: there are daily ones
<charlie-tca> and will it work with a different nick?
<micahg> charlie-tca: you're the chair :)
<charlie-tca> yeah, but what happens when the chair loses the power and goes away?
<micahg> er, charlie-tca__ is the chair :-/
<pleia2> you'll probably have to /nick charlie-tca__ to end
<beardygnome> maco: can you send me the link?
<charlie-tca__> I no longer have mootbot
<charlie-tca__> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:43.
<maco> beardygnome: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/
<charlie-tca__> Thanks, everyone, for being here.
<maco> beardygnome: choose daily for an alternate cd or daily-live for a live cd
<beardygnome> maco: thanks
<charlie-tca__> hm, were we done?
<beardygnome> does the current image have the new panel layout?
<charlie-tca__> yes
<charlie-tca__> I think it does, but it is not yet final
<beardygnome> cool, looking forward to trying that
<charlie-tca__> It at least uses greybird
<charlie-tca__> although the last time, I had to CTRL+ALT+SysRq+k at the login screen to change themes in the desktop
<beardygnome> what's that the command for?
<charlie-tca__> reset X
<charlie-tca__> used to be Ctrl+Alt+Backspace, I think
<beardygnome> tanks
<beardygnome> *thanks
<vinnl> Which is SysRq? :)
<beardygnome> i believe it's another function of the PrintScreen key
<charlie-tca> yup, printscreen
<charlie-tca> It's one of the so-called "MagicSysRq" keys
<vinnl> What would be their label on the keyboard? :P
<charlie-tca> PrintScreen
<vinnl> Ah :)
<charlie-tca> or PrntScrn
<charlie-tca> older keyboards show both on the same key, PrntScrn/sysRq
<Ayrton> pleia2, the meeting for new members is today?
<pleia2> Ayrton: yes, in 3 hours
<Ayrton> thanks :)
<JackyAlcine> O.o I want to watch. Is it for Ubuntu Members or something else?
<charlie-tca> It is open to anyone that wants to attend. this will be the Americas Regional Membership Board meeting, so many will not be members yet
<czajkowski> JackyAlcine: anyone can idle in the channel
<JackyAlcine> :D
<JackyAlcine> Funny enough, I'm in North America.
<charlie-tca> then you will apply to this board when you are ready for membership
<charlie-tca> Here is the information on it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-21
<dudanogueira> da123
<dudanogueira> ouch
<pleia2> yay, dudanogueira :)
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:00. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for January 21st 2011. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<pleia2> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<pleia2> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<pleia2> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<pleia2> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<pleia2> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<pleia2> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<pleia2> is geeknik here?
<pleia2> ok, james78?
<james78> I am here.
<pleia2> [TOPIC] james78 membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  james78 membership
<pleia2> james78: please go ahead and introduce yourself :)
<Legendario> hello everybody
<Legendario> just pinging here
<dudanogueira> Legendario: heya!
<james78> Hi, I'm James, and my wiki page is at the end. I've been working with computers for many many years (7 or so). I started with Ubuntu around 8.04 (september 2008) and have been loving it ever since. I mostly help people out in the Ubuntu forums and IRC. I love helping people out and giving technical support. :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/roejames12
<nhandler> james78: Who added the recommendations to your wiki? It only has first names, and it appears you have made all of the edits to that page
<james78> Yes, I indeed have.
<james78> Those recommendations came from 2 people I know on MSN.
<james78> There was a 3rd person who was going to add theres in, but they never got around too it.
<Legendario> hi dudanogueira!
<dinda> james78: so why are you going for your membership?
<dinda> james78: and are active in any loco teams?  events?
<dudanogueira> james78:  where in the world are you? do you have some involvement with nearby locos?
<dudanogueira> oops :)
<dinda> gmta :)
<james78> As said earlier, I love helping people out, and giving technical support. But on a better note, in the future, I plan on giving and maintaining a better role in the Ubuntu community. Documentation, packaging, bug triaging, and of course bug reporting! Just whatever work that needs to get done. :)
<dinda> james78: dudanogueira and I are on the membership council, that's why we're asking so many questions
 * greg-g waves
<james78> I am currently not affiliated with any loco teams. I live in College Place Washington, and if I remember right from looking up the loco teams, there aren't any around here, but I can certainly start one up sometime. :)
<dinda> james78: we can certainly use your help in documentation!  and all those other teams too
<nhandler> james78: I'm seeing http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-washington and http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/washingtonstate
<dinda> james78: so about two years of active involvement, would you say?
<james78> Right around there ya. I was more on and off for a better part of the year, but within the last 7 or 8 months I've been getting much much more involved, especially with helping people out in the Ubuntu forums./
<dinda> james78: do you think you could get recommendations from some of the forums team members?
<james78> I believe I can. I know that a few have seen me around helping people.
<james78> CharlesA would be one of them.
<pleia2> james78: you've been doing some great work, but I think we'd really like to see you getting into some of those areas you mentioned, documentation, packaging, bug triaging and reporting
<greg-g> james78: it would be good to have them add their endorsement to your wiki page themselves
<dinda> james78: agreed, maybe have one or two of them come speak for you here
<greg-g> without endorsements from known people, it is hard for us to make a decision, you know?
<james78> I agree. Makes perfect sense.
<dudanogueira> james78: you are almost there! keep up the good work :)
<greg-g> james78: so, go ahead and ask those people for those endorsements and, of course, keep doing good work and expanding your sphere of involvement and come back for membership in a little
<pleia2> ghoulmann, are you here?
<ghoulmann> here
<ghoulmann> My name is Rik Goldman, I have a deep commitment to literature, rhetoric, education, social justice and liberation. I'm eager to continue to explore with an invested community how Ubuntu can can be an asset as we serve these interests. I am a literature and composition instructor, and now find myself an advanced technology instructor. I have worked with IT since 1996, until now always ancillary to my work with wi
<pleia2> [TOPIC] ghoulmann membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  ghoulmann membership
<dinda> hi ghoulmann!  just matched the nick with the work - excellent to have you here!
<ghoulmann> thank you!
<ghoulmann> it's great to be able to be here.
<ghoulmann> I began using ubuntu on secondary machines in 2005 after many years of changing distros and experimenting.
<ghoulmann> Ultimately I chose ubuntu for my home machines and committed my lab at the school to open source resources, with ubuntu as a foundation
<dinda> ghoulmann: were you at the last UDS?
<pleia2> yay for ubuntu in school labs :)
<greg-g> ghoulmann: awesome, I'm really happy to hear about floss in the classrooom/education
<ghoulmann> no but apparently I came up in school server in a box discusison
<dinda> ghoulmann: you did!
<dinda> ghoulmann: we really need more educators telling their stories and helping to grow the community
<ghoulmann> it's been a really energizing experience. it also has me keeping assessment authentic, being able to have them contribute, rather then doing enervating drills.
<dudanogueira> ghoulmann: that's very good! open source has everything to do with education!
<greg-g> ghoulmann: when did your lab go Ubuntu?
<ghoulmann> And i see Ubuntu, espec. with the code of conduct, as the transportation for the technologies that will serve the underserved.
<Legendario> dudanogueira, ghoulmann, I also agree. Education and free software make the perfect couple
<ghoulmann> At the end of summer, students converted all the machines, with the blessing of sys admin and head of school
<dudanogueira> they did it by themselfs?
<dudanogueira> that's it cool
<ghoulmann> Based on the success the students had the prior year.
<greg-g> awesome. I have so many questions for you, but they aren't about membership related things, so I'll stay quiet :)
<dinda> ghoulmann: doph!  I just realized that article from T.H.E was about you!
<ghoulmann> They had support, an array of tools provided to choose from
 * ghoulmann blush
<dinda> read that last year and just now got the connection to Chelsea
<pleia2> ok, I think we're ready to vote (only board members voting, please)
<pleia2> [VOTE] ghoulmann membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ghoulmann membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dudanogueira> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> #endvote
<pleia2> <endvote>
<pleia2> oh there
<ghoulmann> THank you for the opportunity.
<sabrerae> yeah
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<ghoulmann> and the support.
<pleia2> congrats and welcome ghoulmann! :)
<pabelanger> ghoulmann: Congrats!
<dudanogueira> ghoulmann: we are the one to thank you ;)
<dinda> Welcome!  now keep up the good work :)
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, ghoulmann !
<porthose_> ghoulmann, congrats :)
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Legendario membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  Legendario membership
<ghoulmann> very proud of all the support i've received.
<greg-g> ghoulmann: the support is why we all love this community :)
<Legendario> congrats ghoulmann, good to see someone with education background here
<Legendario> i am ready
<pleia2> Legendario: please go ahead and introduce yourself :)
<Legendario> well...
<Legendario> i live in Brazil
<Legendario> i am graduated in performing arts
<Legendario> but got interested about free software in college
<Legendario> got vicius to it
<Legendario> later on got closer to the loco team
<Legendario> and ended up leadering it
<pleia2> that's great
<Legendario> right now I am at campus party brazil
<Legendario> we are making a huge install fest here
<pleia2> :)
<greg-g> awesome
<Legendario> campus-party.com.br
<james78> That's pretty cool. Showing people the new opportunities and world of Ubuntu. :)
<Legendario> in short that's it
<Legendario> i guess my wiki page tells it a lot better
<Legendario> I hope so
<pleia2> yes, very good wiki page
<Legendario> I am not alone here. The rest of the team is with me too
<Legendario> they make a great work
<greg-g> Legendario: yeah, teams make it all so much better
<Legendario> ohhh, I've started a second bachelors degree in software development because of my relationship with free software
<pleia2> cool
<greg-g> Legendario: nice!
<pleia2> [VOTE] Legendario membership
<Legendario> greg-g, I just love it! It's pretty fun and rewarding
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Legendario membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<greg-g> +1 #great contributions and activity in the loco, wonderful testimonials
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dudanogueira> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> congrats and welcome, Legendario! keep up the great work! :)
<greg-g> congrats and welcome aboard, Legendario !
<pleia2> nobuto: are you here?
<nobuto> yes.
<Legendario> thank you guys! thanks a lot
<dudanogueira> Legendario: welcome!! spread ubuntu at campus party!!!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] nobuto membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  nobuto membership
<greg-g> go ahead and please introduce yourself, nobuto
<nobuto>  * As a member of Japanese LoCo Team since August 2009, I attended FOSS events and made presentations to promote Ubuntu.
<nobuto>  * I wrote articles about Ubuntu in Japan.
<nobuto> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NobutoMURATA
<Legendario> dudanogueira, don't you worry ;-)
<pleia2> nobuto: wow, you do a lot of event work!
<dudanogueira> yeah!!! we do need social people!!
<nobuto> In a event, I met persia(Emmet Hikory). He suggested me to apply membership.
<greg-g> cool, good ole persia.
<greg-g> nobuto: I'm curious why you are applying in the America's review board instead of the Asia/Pacific one.
<pleia2> I had no idea there was an ubuntu magazine japan
<nobuto> Asia/Oceania membership meeting is not well held since October last year.
<nobuto> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<pleia2> yeah, they've had trouble getting quorum
<greg-g> nobuto: ahhhhhh, that makes sense :)
<dudanogueira> nobuto: I can see you did some documentations on another website. Is it possible to write it on the ubuntu wiki?
<greg-g> I'm sorry about that, nobuto.
<nobuto> duanedesign: My domumentation is mainly in Japanese.
<nobuto> Now my documentation is held in LoCo's wiki.
<dudanogueira> oh, that's the loco wiki (http://gihyo.jp/admin/serial/01/ubuntu-recipe/0143)?
<nobuto> sorry, no. wiki is https://wiki.ubuntulinux.jp/
<pleia2> [VOTE] nobuto membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  nobuto membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dudanogueira> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nhandler> Congratulations nobuto!
<greg-g> congrats and welcome aboard, nobuto !
<pleia2> congrats and welcome nobuto!
<nobuto> Thanks!
<dudanogueira> nobuto: be welcome!! and keep up the social part!! we really need it
<pleia2> pabelanger: are you here?
<pabelanger> Yes and good evening
<pleia2> [TOPIC] pabelanger membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  pabelanger membership
<dudanogueira> Yeahhh! I LOVE Asterisk :)
<pleia2> pabelanger: please introduce yourself :)
<pabelanger> Hello, my name is Paul Belanger.  I currently live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.  I'm a software developer for the open source project Asterisk and would like to help support Ubuntu-VoIP :)
<nhandler> pabelanger: Any LoCo participation?
<pabelanger> I've been using open source for the last 15years, Ubuntu specifically since 2007
<pabelanger> nhandler: I attend a the local Ottawa Canada Linux User Group, but nothing local for Ubuntu.
<dudanogueira> pabelanger: do you know about the AsteriskOnUbuntu initiative? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AsteriskOnUbuntu
<pabelanger> I've been recently helping triage issue on the launchpad issue tracker and package upgrades.
<pabelanger> duanedesign: Yes, I've seen it in the past and help test some of the existing packages before they were merged.  I would be more then happy to provide feedback and assistance with it.
<Legendario> owww! I don't want to disturb the meeting but I told everybody on the list and the ones who made my testimonial that I had a surprise to tell
<dudanogueira> yeah, I remember the asterisk-mysql had some bugs on it...
<pabelanger> Ya, realtime support for the Asterisk package does need work.  Most SOHO users wouldn't need database access, however the realtime aspect is nice
<Legendario> The news is that I'm going to me the new editor for linux new media brazil
<Legendario> I'm going to work on linux magazine brazil and ubuntu user brazil
<pleia2> pabelanger: what would you say is your biggest contribution directly to ubuntu thus far?
<dudanogueira> Legendario: that's very good!! Congrats!!! Is this Rafael's Peregrino Magazine?
<Legendario> so, I believe ubuntu will be in good hands... ;-). dudanogueira , that's exactly it
<pabelanger> pleia2: Bug triage, my experience with upstream Asterisk allows me to quickly triage issues.
<pabelanger> as well as end user support on IRC.
<nhandler> pabelanger: What is the polybeacon team?
<pabelanger> nhandler: A test, I was trying to get familiar with launchpad. I used it a few months ago to repack some asterisk packages.  I was attempting to add better realtime packaging for Asterisk.
<pabelanger> nhandler: I didn't fully understand the concept of PPAs then
<greg-g> pabelanger: so you were working on updating packages for asterisk, does that mean you have submitted debdiffs for inclusion or something similar?
<pabelanger> greg-g: Correct,  I'm working on Asterisk 1.8 packaging locally.  With the plan to convert it to use bzr-buildpackaging.   I'd also like to start creating daily-builds, similar to chromium.
<greg-g> pabelanger: have you thought about working with MOTU to get updates to asterisk directly in Ubuntu?
<pabelanger> greg-g: Yes, that is the next step.  I want to help make the Ubuntu VoIP team more active: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-voip
<dudanogueira> pabelanger: Humm. I would love to have it in order to update AsteriskOnUbuntu :)
<pleia2> pabelanger: obviously you do amazing work with asterisk (thank you, I use it on debian :)), but I think I'd like to see a bit more Ubuntu specific work that you've mentioned you have interest in before supporting membership
<pabelanger> dudanogueira: for sure
<pabelanger> pleia2: Understood, if more active contributions for Asterisk in Ubuntu are needed...
<greg-g> pabelanger: I have to agree with pleia2, that is why I was asking about the MOTU/debdiff work. I would love to see you breath some new life into the VOIP/AsteriskOnUbuntu teams.
<pabelanger> greg-g: No problem.  Let me do that first and reapply
<pleia2> great, thanks for all the triaging work you do!
<pleia2> udienz: are you here?
<greg-g> pabelanger: awesome, I do really appreciate all your hard work. You're a great asset to the larger FLOSS community
<udienz> pleia2, yup
<dudanogueira> pabelanger: that's great! I have an old computer sitting around with a X100P (I know, it's bad), and I'll update AsteriskOnUbuntu to 1.8 as soon as I have the time and the packages are available :)
<pleia2> [TOPIC] udienz membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  udienz membership
<udienz> Hi my name is Mahyuddin Susanto, i come from Surabaya, Indonesia. I'm graduated from Electrical Engineering.
<udienz> im Loco stuff in Ubuntu Indonesia as known as www.ubuntu-id.org, but having trouble with servers and domain. we (i) have contacted canonical/loco board/rt.ubuntu.com yet and we (i) still waiting for next action. i'm administrator in Loco Servers and administrator in other Loco Stuff.
<pabelanger> greg-g: thanks
<pabelanger> dudanogueira: keep an eye out
<udienz> in past time, i'm Ubuntu member, but i forget to apllied again. http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/10/%23ubuntu-meeting.html. since 2 month i try to applied again, but every membership meeting has been cancelled because lack of quorum or because limitted time
<udienz> Since Maverick +1, i'm working in FTBFS fixing especially in DSO linker. i have uploaded ~40 packages in Ubuntu archive https://launchpad.net/~udienz/+uploaded-packages
<pleia2> udienz: oh! since you were an ubuntu member we can just readd you :) no need for applying again
<pleia2> welcome back
<greg-g> yeah, and your contributions are pretty extensive
<udienz> pleia2, greg-g thanks
<nhandler> Congratulations udienz
<dudanogueira> agreed. VERY extensive :)
<udienz> nhandler, :) my pleasure
<udienz> dudanogueira, thanks!
<nhandler> Keep up the good work udienz
<greg-g> welcome (back) aboard, udienz ! :)
<dudanogueira> heeeeeeyyy, I know a big fan of claws-mail under ubuntu :)
<udienz> nhandler, i'm looking forward to UBT team now
<pleia2> Rafik: readded you, it even preserves your original membership date :)
<pleia2> err udienz
<pleia2> wow, tab faaail
<greg-g> thanks to everyone for coming out tonight!
<pleia2> thanks everyone!
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:09.
<dudanogueira> yeaaah, thanks! and congrats for the new members :)
<james78> Congrats guys. :)
<pleia2> james78: hope to see you again soon :)
<james78> pleia2: Sure thing. :)
<dudanogueira> bye all!!!
<james78> Bye. I'll be back next time, hopefully with a few more endorsements. :D
<seb128> hey
 * marjo waves
<apw> o/
<jdstrand> o/
<zul> hiyo
 * joshuahoover waves
 * charlie-tca observing
<Daviey> o/
 * victorp says hola
<ogra> moop
<cjwatson> hi
<victorp> no skaet today?
<cjwatson> oh, skaet said she was in .au and asked me to drive
<cjwatson> but I'd forgotten about that, so give me a minute to prep
<apw> there is a cat who must be executive platinum
<cjwatson> apw: ...
<cjwatson> oh, ISWYM now :)
<apw> :)
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:08. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-01-21
<cjwatson> Alpha-2 is just under two weeks away, and the 10.04.2 freeze has started; 10.04.2 is due in just under four weeks.
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<cjwatson> most of these are skaet's, so can't usefully update on those
<cjwatson> [leads] please scrub bugs for those that are needed for alpha 2, vs. ok later, so we can focus list
<cjwatson> general reminder on this; I've been doing this today for foundations
<cjwatson> Anyone have anything they need to add here?
<cjwatson> (going, going, gone)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo>  * Natty Alpha 2 Work Items
<marjo>  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<marjo>  Good progress; hggdh & zul working on server work items
<marjo>   * Bugsquad Roadmap: 'Add support information to bug reporting guidelines' Done. Workaround found to blocking bug http://launchpad.net/bugs/692787
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 692787 in Launchpad itself "unable to update Ubuntu bug reporting guidelines" [Critical,In progress]
<marjo>  * weekly testing status:
<marjo>  QA Dashboard
<marjo>  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> Note: Unity and Ubiquity in top 5 with new bugs
<marjo>  Desktop Automated Testing results
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo> Note: Over 260 test cases in 2D mode and over 240 in Unity mode
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo> thx to jibel, pedro, hggdh2, patrickmw,bdmurray
<marjo>  Server Automated Testing results
<marjo>  http://204.236.234.12/view/ISO-server-Natty/?
<marjo>  hggdh investigating the 2 failures
<marjo>  * Bugs:
<marjo>  692787 in Launchpad itself "unable to update Ubuntu bug reporting guidelines" Workaround found; work item was completed using the workaround.
<marjo> ..
 * cjwatson wonders what's going on with initramfs-tools new bugs; many of them have absolutely nothing to do with i-t
<cjwatson> weird
<apw> cjwatson, something to do with being a trigger perhaps ?
<cjwatson> could be
<cjwatson> marjo: was there any progress on making installer logs visible in the server test output?
<jibel> cjwatson, that's a pb with console-setup and a missing /etc/default/keyboard
<marjo> cjwatson: hggdh2 did some work on that at rally, but not done yet
<cjwatson> jibel: that's fixed
<cjwatson> and doesn't account for things like libreoffice bugs
<marjo> cjwatson: but it looks doable
<cjwatson> ok, any further questions?
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - ara
<cjwatson> or maybe not ara
<cjwatson> victorp?
<victorp> me
<victorp> This week we run into several issues during our weekly testing.
<victorp> On servers, we found a bug in debian-installer introduced by a recent
<victorp> change, that made the installation failed. We filed a bug:
<victorp> [LINK]
<victorp> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/partman-partitioning/+bug/705377
<victorp> and contacted the ubuntu-installer team. Colin Watson followed it up and
<MootBot> LINK received:
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 705377 in partman-partitioning (Ubuntu) "Debian installer prompts for partition type when installing Ubuntu server" [High,Fix released]
<victorp> found the root cause. He fixed the issue and it should be working in
<victorp> today's ISOs.
<victorp> On clients, we didn't get enough results and we are still investigating
<victorp> the root cause. In one of the clients that didn't report back we did a
<victorp> manual installation of the same daily image and it went OK. We are in the
<victorp> process of collecting enough logs to raise a bug for Ubiquity.
 * victorp giving people time to read
<cjwatson> right, sorry about that regression
<victorp> :)
<victorp> all good
<victorp> the problem with the client still not rca yet
<victorp> we should have the bug raised before end of the day
<victorp> might be related to how we use preseeds
<cjwatson> yeah, I saw ara asking about that this morning
<victorp> that is all from cert this week
<cjwatson> as I said to her then, I'm not *aware* of fundamental preseeding changes, and if there are any that may well be a bug in itself
<cjwatson> any questions?
 * victorp thanks everyone for the weekly testing effort
<cjwatson> victorp: oh, anything on bug 702166 (from the agenda)?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702166 in linux (Ubuntu) "Oops during install of Natty on HP ProLiant ML350 G5" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702166
 * victorp is checking
<victorp> cjwatson - I am checking to make sure I dont get the bugs confused, let me get back to you on that
 * ScottK is here now.
<cjwatson> victorp: ok, no rush
<cjwatson> can move on in the meantime
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> Not a lot to report. This last week we have been focusing on stable release updates and have also been fixing security issues in natty. We either committed or fixed the few milestoned bugs from last week.
<jdstrand> We have no milestoned features for alpha-2.
<jdstrand> ..
 * victorp says : bug seems a valid bug, cr3 will reply to apw on the bug comment
<cjwatson> hah, amusing work item chart cliff there
<jdstrand> yes :)
<jdstrand> well, there were several pie in the sky items that shouldn't have been work items in the first place, so we cleaned that up
<jdstrand> pie in the sky is probably overstated-- more natty+1
 * cjwatson nods
<cjwatson> any questions?
<cjwatson> thanks jdstrand
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Kernel team update - apw
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - apw
<jdstrand> sure
<apw> o/
<apw> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<apw> NOTE: as code-hosting is down currently some of the graphs may be several hours out of date!
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> We are progressing on our natty-alpha-2 items, some of the natty-alpha-1 items remain but we continue to close them.  The remaining pushed out items are listed with background on the overall status above (first link).  Overall burndown we are still below the line, so we still hope to be able to catch up.
<apw> Of the bugs called out on the agenda, a few are now basically fixed:
<apw> #542660, #600453, and #681877 are all stalled waiting on a v2.6.38-rc1 based kernel to test (see below);
<apw> #539467 has been passed to desktop for implementation;
<apw> #605042 has been reproduced further testing requested;
<apw> #621195 benign message suppressed for Natty, Fix Committed;
<apw> #630748 experimental firmware looking better but not yet fixed, waiting on Intel;
<apw> #636091 affects maverick live environment, requested natty testing;
<apw> #682617 is confirmed as a pulseaudio issue, moved there;
<apw> #686692 memory size prevented ec2 instance start, bug found and patches pushed upstream and to natty, Fix Committed;
<apw> and #702166 has truncated bug output, requested information.
<apw> The main distro kernel remains at v2.6.37, we will remain on this version for a couple of weeks while the early 2.6.38 release candidates shake out.  We are working on getting a v2.6.38-rc1 based kernel which will boot on both 32 and 86 bit systems in preparation for upload once stable.
<apw> ..
<cjwatson> 86-bit :-)
<apw> heh oops
<cjwatson> anyone have questions?
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
 * cjwatson switches hats
<cjwatson> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> Good feature progress at the rally; very little visible progress since then unfortunately (although mvo's been at another sprint, and a lot of the remaining work items are his).  Several of the in-progress items are nearing completion though.
<cjwatson> Interesting feature progress this week that isn't showing up:
<cjwatson>  - LibreOffice -> natty
<cjwatson>  - evaluating multiple test rebuilds, including one for gcc-4.6 (http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20110111-gcc-natty.html)
<cjwatson>  - fixed some of the graphical boot problems identified at the rally
<cjwatson>  - processing review feedback on upstart override handling
<cjwatson>  - started on upstart job visualisation work
<cjwatson>  - working on setting up easily snapshottable btrfs snapshots in installer by default
<cjwatson> skaet asked about the milestoned bugs on the agenda last week, and we didn't have much to report.  By way of amends, we've been doing a bit better this week:
<cjwatson> Alpha-2 bugs:
<cjwatson> 675347: in progress upstream (Linaro)
<cjwatson> 680328: can't reproduce, asked for test sequence
<cjwatson> 684052: Evan said at the rally that this would be easy; poked him again
<cjwatson> 684703: have checked with doko, although I think this has been worked around; marked incomplete for now
<cjwatson> 686263: looks to me like only ubuntu-mir members can get anywhere with this; commented asking for clarification
<cjwatson> Alpha-3 bugs:
<cjwatson> 664276, 664397: no status at this time; will ask Barry about it after alpha-2
<cjwatson> 691671: patch doesn't fix the bug; Evan has followed up saying so; needs more work, marked for alpha-3
<cjwatson> Beta-1 bugs:
<cjwatson> 553745: still no information, as Scott said previous attempts to fix have made it worse; won't rush this one, so pushed to beta-1
<cjwatson> 645818: this should be tractable, but we released maverick with this so pushed to beta-1
<cjwatson> 671016: just a website change now, pushed to beta-1
<cjwatson> 690873: can safely be left for beta-1 at this point, per its milestone
<cjwatson> Unmilestoned bugs:
<cjwatson> 684083: can't reproduce on my nvidia hardware, asked reporter to confirm; could be system-specific
<cjwatson> Four other bugs fixed or marked won't fix since the last meeting (see the agenda).
<cjwatson> (I've not triggered ubottu on those to save your scrollback buffers)
<cjwatson> we are now one staff member down, so bear with us :-(
<cjwatson> that's all, any questions?
<cjwatson> all right, I get off easy then
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Server team update - zul
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - zul
<zul> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul> Hi, the trend line for the burndown charts pretty good and we are just a little behind the trend line. Alot of progress has been made this week. Cobbler is now in the archive, and Eucalyptus has a solution for a FTBFS to be uploaded this week. Daviey would like some help from the foundations for the axis2c ftbfs fix. Clint has been working with the foundations on bug Bug #672177. Notable outstanding bugs this week:
<zul> 697105 - apache2 - Segfault on POST (in progress)
<zul> 684875 - cloud-init - Patch to Natty 2.6.37-virtual breaks non EC2 kernels
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul> 656646 - cloud-init - transient network/keyscan issues
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 672177 in upstart (Ubuntu) "libc6 upgrade causes umount to fail on shutdown because init cannot be restarted" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/672177
<zul> thats all any questions?
<zul> ...
<apw> that cloud-innit thing, what was the config change ?
<zul> i think so
<zul> i havent been able to talk smoser today
<cjwatson> ok, I'll find somebody to help you out with axis2c, although doko has pointed the way somewhat already it seems
<doko> zul: I sent feedback about axi2c
<cjwatson> is doko's feedback enough, or do you need more?
<zul> doko: great...ill talk to daviey about it then
<cjwatson> (it was two weeks ago)
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> doko, hmm, where did you send it?
<cjwatson> Daviey: it's in the bug?
<cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/axis2c/+bug/600174/comments/13
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 600174 in axis2c (Ubuntu Natty) "axis2c fails to build from source on maverick/i386" [High,Confirmed]
<cjwatson> ok, let's move on
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Desktop team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti
<cjwatson> or not pitti
<cjwatson> seb128?
<seb128> hey
<cjwatson> (sorry, am c&ping from last week's log
<cjwatson> )
<seb128> yeah, pitti is travelling back today
<seb128> he was at the GNOME hacking fest in prague this week
<seb128>  
<seb128> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team.html
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<seb128> Weekly update:
<seb128> * New unity and indicator stack ported to gdbus landed, some issues but things are mostly working
<seb128> * LibreOffice landed in natty this week (thanks doko)
<seb128> * Decided to stay on GNOME 2.32 for natty, GNOME3 will be packaged in a ppa and land next cycle
<seb128> 683100: known compiz issue (should be dx?)
<seb128> 676166: need investigation
<seb128> 684704: Riddell said he will have a look
<seb128> 685682: dx issue being worked
<seb128> 688776: should be sponsoring today
<seb128> 688861: need investigation
<seb128> 690461: known dx,compiz issue
<seb128> 691671: need investigation
<seb128> 692665: being worked, the langomatic issue has been fixed
<seb128> 692823: known dx,compiz issue
<seb128> 693073: known dx,compiz issue
<seb128> 696527: libreoffice issue, need work
<seb128> 704770: build issue that still need to be worked
<seb128> 705572: being investigated
<seb128>  
<seb128> that's all from me, questions?
<cjwatson> glad we're not the only team swamped in bugs :)
<seb128> ;-)
<seb128> though to be fair most of ours are due to dx :p
<cjwatson> do you know what's happening about the libreoffice size issues?  I saw chatter on IRC the other day about that, but didn't see a resolution
 * seb128 runs away from dbarth__
<doko> about 696527: the CD size issue is fixed. the Human icons not
<dbarth__> seb128: it'll be my turn
<seb128> doko, ok, thanks
<dbarth__> soon
<seb128> cjwatson, seems doko knows better about those
<seb128> see his comment
<cjwatson> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ is still massively oversized, though it failed to build today I think
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ is still massively oversized, though it failed to build today I think
<ogra> move to arm, ours are only 470M big ... Loffice will fit easily :)
<cjwatson> hm, no, it failed on amd64, but i386 built this morning and is 66MB oversized
<doko> cjwatson: yes, libreoffice-l10n was just accepted, you could retry a rebuild in about 1h
<cjwatson> ah, ok, I'll just let cron do it tomorrow then
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> any other questions?
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> oops
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases are in the link above
<joshuahoover> work on improving syncdaemon performance continues, with resumable uploads finishing up this week...this means when you have that large file uploading and sync gets disrupted (sleep, lost net connection, etc.) u1 will continue the transfer where it last left off once it's connected again
<joshuahoover> unity integration work started in earnest this week, along with work on u1 notifications
<joshuahoover> we should have some new packages up next week to show off some of this work :-)
<joshuahoover> and that's about it
<joshuahoover> ..
<cjwatson> nice work on the bug list, judging from the agenda
<cjwatson> any questions?
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell>  * packagers now have KDE SC 4.6 tars, ninjas are jumping into action
<Riddell>  * some arm issues to investigate, qtwebkit, kdesdk
<Riddell>  * 15 bugs I've milestoned for alpha 2, they won't all make it, but we can try http://goo.gl/yGhJd
<Riddell>  * most important bugs are a couple of ubiquity issues I'll look at once KDE packaging is done
<Riddell>  * progress being made on todo list but slowly https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<cjwatson> keyboard selector broken: wonder if that's my fault, it probably is :-/
<cjwatson> I can have a look at that one
<cjwatson> any other questions?
<cjwatson> Riddell: oh, skaet put a note on the agenda saying "status update needed?" for http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/kubuntu-dev.html - is that a remotely useful list, or does it need pruning?
<cjwatson> I suppose that's mostly Kubuntu/Todo/Natty
<Riddell> yeah, I prefer to just look at the todo page directly
<Riddell> but there's probably tidying up to be done
<Riddell> give me an action item if you like :)
<cjwatson> mkay
<cjwatson> [ACTION] Riddell to clean up kubuntu-dev work items chart
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to clean up kubuntu-dev work items chart
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hi
<dbarth> the weekly notes are at the usual place: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus
<dbarth> quick summary
<dbarth> we barely on the trend line, but reasonnably so
<dbarth> unity, bamf releases this week again: the places are back!
<dbarth> partly, ie the homescreen is there, which is really a lot of the places view infrastructure being back into unity
<dbarth> no real, decisive progress on the compiz bugs however
<dbarth> despite all the efforts sam and others put into trying to narrow down the stacking order issues
<marjo> dbarth: what's blocking you on compiz bugs progress?
<dbarth> at least we know 0.9 was broken since a long time, and it's window stack is really inconsistent compared to what the xserver knows
<dbarth> we know how to reproduce
<dbarth> we don't know why the de-synchromixzation is so important
<dbarth> actually, we spot issues since the very start of compiz and can't say then why the different signals we're getting don't result in the same resync that 0.8 is doing
<marjo> dbarth: so, you're continuing root cause analysis, it seems
<dbarth> we've tried porting a couplpe of late 0.87 fixes, but there is a more fundamental problem
<dbarth> correct
<marjo> dbarth: ack & good luck
<dbarth> unity foundations: mostly a release to integrate fixes required for the appmenu XUL work from chrisccoulson
<dbarth> qa, we've put some initial efforts into stopping the bug count to rise
<dbarth> and we know have a plan discussed within the team and with desktop / platforom to improve reactivity
<dbarth> we have a couple of bugs fixes in flight:
<dbarth> 683100: inprogress
<dbarth> 685682: inrpogress
<dbarth> 692823: inprogress
<dbarth> 690461: inprogress
<dbarth> 693073: inprogres
<dbarth> 657771: postponed
<dbarth> 637827: inprogresse
<dbarth> 683065: not started
<dbarth> 689179: postponed
<dbarth> 695638: inprogress
<dbarth> 628727: invalid
<dbarth> 676166: invalid
<dbarth> 526642: invalid
<dbarth> 684193: fixed
<dbarth> and a couple of xies and invalid bugs as well, from the release team radar
<dbarth> ...
<dbarth> ie, that's it for me
<dbarth> questions?
<cjwatson> (xies?)
<dbarth> ?
<cjwatson> 17:05 <dbarth> and a couple of xies and invalid bugs as well, from the release team radar
<cjwatson> I was wondering what xies meant
<dbarth> fixes, sorry
<cjwatson> oh!  right, entirely failed to autocorrect in my head :)
<cjwatson> ok, thanks
<dbarth> that's DX for fixing bugs ;)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] ARM team update - ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra
<ogra> me !
<ogra> Status is at:
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Summary:
<ogra>  * Images are building again since today \o/
<ogra>  * Half the team was busy over the rally and this week to get unity-2d packaging in shape (we added a new spec for this to track work)
<ogra>  * Kernel is still 2.6.35 for OMAP 4, TI planning to push a 2.6.38 tree later on
<ogra>  * Mainline Kernel for OMAP 3 is integrated in the images now
<ogra>  * Only some WI work was done during sprint and this week due to various interceptions
<ogra>  * Maverick kernel SRU testing is going on
<ogra>  * A segfault we found in unity-2d seems to be arm specific (bug is below)
<ogra>  * For full unity-2d integration we are waiting for the new unity-places API to land and for some code rework of the unity-2d team for the new indicator framework
<ogra>  * unity-2d MIRs will be filed early next week, we hope to get them on the A2 images in time.
<ogra>  * FTBFS: haskell is heavily being worked on.
<ogra>  * Improvement and debugging work on the GLES drivers for OMAP  is going on hand in hand with TI
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Specs:
<ogra> New Spec: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/unity-2d-integration
<ogra> Entire status: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<ogra> Milestone: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Serious Bugs:
<ogra> Bug 705689
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705689 in unity-2d (Ubuntu) "unity-2d-launcher crashes with segfault error on armel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705689
<ogra> Bug 633227
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 633227 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Natty) "instabilities with highmem activated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633227
<ogra> thats all for arm
<cjwatson> thanks - any questions?
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] MOTU team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> Hello.
<ScottK> Nothing significant to report.
<ScottK> Work on the usual transitions/updates is ongoing.
<ScottK> ...
<cjwatson> heh, short and sweet :)
<cjwatson> any questions?
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
<cjwatson> or anyone else?
<cjwatson> OK, guess Linaro folks are busy or finished for the week :)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<cjwatson> OK, I guess not, thanks everyone!
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:18.
<marjo> cjwatson: thx!
<ogra> thanks cjohnston
<ogra> err
<ogra> cjwatson,
<apw> cjwatson, thanks :)
 * JackyAlcine trolls a bit.
<JackyAlcine> UndiFineD: We're holding it here, no?
<UndiFineD> yes
<CensoredBiscuit> Hello everyone
<JackyAlcine> Kkay, I just can't tell if everyone is here.
<MrChrisDruif> Hai CensoredBiscuit :)
<bedahr> hi everybody
<CensoredBiscuit> I added my name as chair :3
<JackyAlcine> Alright, CensoredBiscuit. I hope you know how to use MootBoot.
<CensoredBiscuit> No
<CensoredBiscuit> I don't
<JackyAlcine> It's not too hard; I'll show you.
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<JackyAlcine> charlie-tca: you're the man.
<CensoredBiscuit> Let the page load and we'll begin
<JackyAlcine> ;invite meetingology
<CensoredBiscuit> Are you ready?
<JackyAlcine> o.
<JackyAlcine> *o/
<CensoredBiscuit> is that a yes?
<JackyAlcine> yes.
<CensoredBiscuit> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:01. The chair is CensoredBiscuit.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<CensoredBiscuit> Well,
<CensoredBiscuit> First thing on the agenda is to vote to delay to 11.10
<MrChrisDruif> hajour isn't even here...
<JackyAlcine> Wait, true.
<CensoredBiscuit> ;invite hajour
<UndiFineD> hold a sec for her
<JackyAlcine> CensoredBiscuit: DragonEyes isn't here, neither.
<UndiFineD> she is having irc trouble
<MrChrisDruif> JackyAlcine: DragonEyes isn't here because this is an official Ubuntu channel...
<CensoredBiscuit> Welcome hajour
<hajour> thank you sorry for delay.
<DanteAshton> Hello everyone...
<CensoredBiscuit> shall we continue now
<techgeek_squared> Hello Dan
<MrChrisDruif> Hai DanteAshton :)
<UndiFineD> yes please
<hajour> hai DanteAshton
<MrChrisDruif> Please do CensoredBiscuit :)
<CensoredBiscuit> very well
<CensoredBiscuit> the first thing on the agenda is the vote to delay to 11.04
<CensoredBiscuit> before heading to the vote is there any thoughts on this?
<bedahr> CensoredBiscuit: yes, a quick one
<UndiFineD> well, it is a bit short time to have a release ready for 11.04
<bedahr> this is still all about the original speech-control plans, right? or has this already been "merged" with the wintremute project?
<CensoredBiscuit> So you don't even think 11.04 is possible UndiFineD
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: Not as of yet.
<bedahr> (sorry if this is a dumb question)
<bedahr> ok
<bedahr> JackyAlcine: thanks
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: No, I would have asked the same, I think I blurred it a bit too much.
<JackyAlcine> I can see libopenmary being ready by mid-cycle of 11.04.
<CensoredBiscuit> So if we merged with Wintermute it would take longer
<tenach> Perhaps 11.10 release?
<CensoredBiscuit> what about delaying to 11.10?
<JackyAlcine> CensoredBiscuit: yes, A bit more.
<phillw> I think 11.10 is a realistic target
<JackyAlcine> Wintermute may not be avialable *officialy* for 11.04 or even 11.10, but there will be betas and alphas.
<CensoredBiscuit> lets open the vote to 11.10?
<UndiFineD> yes
<JackyAlcine> Don't ask, do so; you're the chair.
<phillw> yes
<pedro3005> Isn't there another python programmer in the team? Kinda sucks to do it all alone
<CensoredBiscuit> [vote] Delay release to be 11.10 not 11.04?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Delay release to be 11.10 not 11.04?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<JackyAlcine> pedro3005: I've been scraping up a bit of Python learning online.
<UndiFineD> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from UndiFineD. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<JackyAlcine> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from JackyAlcine. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<CensoredBiscuit> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from CensoredBiscuit. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<phillw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<hajour> +1
<pedro3005> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from hajour. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MootBot> +1 received from pedro3005. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<bedahr> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bedahr. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<MrChrisDruif> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from MrChrisDruif. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
<CensoredBiscuit> the voting has :30
<CensoredBiscuit> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 7
<CensoredBiscuit> let the record show development release is now set for 11.10
<JackyAlcine> Alright, making a note of that.
<phillw> pedro3005: I'll see if I can kidnap you another python programmer, but you will know more than I do.
<pedro3005> JackyAlcine, I commend your effort.. I should do the same about C++
<CensoredBiscuit> next on the agenda is a vote on the mentoring program
<phillw> *more of them*
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Mentoring program
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mentoring program
<CensoredBiscuit> Who has information on this topic?
<pedro3005> JackyAlcine, Do you think it would be best if I worked on learning C++ and we left python alone?
<JackyAlcine> Hold on until the development section, pedro3005 or perhaps a PM.
<pedro3005> ok, sorry.
<CensoredBiscuit> thank you JackyAlcine
<CensoredBiscuit> now we're discuissing the mentoring program
<MrChrisDruif> What is this Mentoring Program about? Anyone?
<CensoredBiscuit> I have no details on this program.
<UndiFineD> noone knows ?
<UndiFineD> then skip topic
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: under the UBT realignment
<CensoredBiscuit> very well
<pedro3005> heh
<CensoredBiscuit> next topic,
<pedro3005> someone make something up on the spot
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Cleaning up the speechcontrol wiki
<MootBot> New Topic:  Cleaning up the speechcontrol wiki
<phillw> people can become mentors when recommended by recognised team leaders.
<hajour> i don't no wo have put it in.i was looking but with webbrowser my notebook screen freeze
<phillw> oh, well, forget it, then :(
<hajour> no phillw talk
<UndiFineD> phillw: we move it to next meeting
<CensoredBiscuit> The speechcontrols wiki is looking rather clustered and unupdated
<UndiFineD> oh hajour :)
<CensoredBiscuit> We need awesome admin people to keep on top of it
<hajour> i am reeading go on phillw
<DanteAshton> I'm awesome...but my admin skills are a bit rubbish :P
<hajour> CensoredBiscuit, ^
<phillw> In the speech control team we have mentors and masters from UBT, this will allow teams to work together
<hajour> give phillw time to speak
<CensoredBiscuit> So Lets attempt to get it cleaned up by next months meeting
<CensoredBiscuit> Very well,
<phillw> one easy example is that Daniel is now working with Daniel
<CensoredBiscuit> do we need to back up topic-wise
<pedro3005> we need to let phillw speak :p
<MrChrisDruif> CensoredBiscuit: Maybe change the topic back?
<phillw> CensoredBiscuit: I'm awaiting some time with cproffit to get the header altered on the page. We did have it scheduled, but there was an 'issue' with an ex admin from here.
<MrChrisDruif> Is this about the wiki phillw?
<CensoredBiscuit> Understood,
<CensoredBiscuit> phillw, lets go back to the mentoring program
<CensoredBiscuit> since I understand there was more to that
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Mentoring Program
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mentoring Program
<UndiFineD> alright, so we can mentor some people, who is up for the task ?
<phillw> he has made the three new headers that we need, but we have not had chance to get things progressed
<JackyAlcine> Define 'mentoring'.
<CensoredBiscuit> Mentoring of new members I imagine
<CensoredBiscuit> kinda like UBT
<CensoredBiscuit> since the same people who run UBT do speechcontrol, for the most part
<phillw> UBT is an area where people who want to give something back to the Ubuntu family are given help to achieve it. Take a tour of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/MissionStatement and ask on here or #ubuntu-beginners-team for more information.
<JackyAlcine> Not sure if I'm capable enough to mentor as of yet.
<JackyAlcine> Still have things to learn.
<MrChrisDruif> Mentor is someone who is skilled in a specific job (programming C++/Python, packaging or wiki work)
<phillw> JackyAlcine: that is exactly why the mentoring process exists.
<pedro3005> okay
<CensoredBiscuit> So a programming mentorship?
<pedro3005> is there anyone here who is capable of mentoring?
<tenach> JackyAlcine: I'm a mentor and I've got a ways to learn myself.
 * tenach is a mentor
<phillw> hiyas tenach
<tenach> Hello phillw
<hajour> o/ tenach
<tenach> o7 hajour
<JackyAlcine> tenach: =] I guess I could bring people about Web programming, that I can teach confidiently. And C#.
<CensoredBiscuit> I think we should at this time open a vote to start a speechcontrol mentorship program
<UndiFineD> i have already taken on MrChrisDruif
<pedro3005> wait, wait.
<tenach> Hold on.
<pedro3005> What exactly are we mentoring on?
<hajour> first let phillw tell more
<pedro3005> I suppose the objective of speech control mentoring is to mentor about development/maintaining speech control
<phillw> the UBT council have said that accessibility and speechcontrol come under 'development' area
<UndiFineD> i think that is right pedro3005
<pedro3005> So general programming should be left to beginners-dev
<CensoredBiscuit> So therefore what is there to mentor
<phillw> by entering the UBT project, those wishing to learn more will have excellent people to help them.
<hajour> i think to take skilled people into speechcontrol and students .but we already did only then its more official right?
<phillw> including some scarily awesome programmers :)
<CensoredBiscuit> but doesn't UBT have the whole mentring thing covered?
<phillw> hajour: yes, it is a way of ensuring people think about accessibility as they learn.
<pedro3005> exactly my point, this mentoring should be restricted to speech control topics.
<UndiFineD> great plan :)
<tenach> It makes more sense to me to have UBT take care of mentoring and have this as a project people can work on in that system..?
<CensoredBiscuit> So are we ready to have a vote?
<hajour> i think its a great plan
<tenach> Scratch that, pedro3005 said it better. :)
<CensoredBiscuit> [vote] Starting a speech control mentoring program
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Starting a speech control mentoring program.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<MrChrisDruif> I agree with pedro3005 and tenach :)
<phillw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<UndiFineD> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from UndiFineD. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<CensoredBiscuit> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from CensoredBiscuit. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pedro3005> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pedro3005. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MrChrisDruif> If it's going to be like those two said...
<bedahr> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bedahr. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MrChrisDruif> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from MrChrisDruif. 4 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
<JackyAlcine> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from JackyAlcine. 5 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
<hajour> i think  to and accessibility and speechcontrol because its both s
<hajour> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from hajour. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
<CensoredBiscuit> :30 left on the vote
<CensoredBiscuit> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 6
<MrChrisDruif> CensoredBiscuit: agreed ;) ?
<phillw> As this is a young project, we can work on the details.
<CensoredBiscuit> Let the record show the members have voted to start a mentor ship program
<JackyAlcine> phillw, true enough.
<CensoredBiscuit> should we discuss
<CensoredBiscuit> who to put in charge of it next meeting
<MrChrisDruif> CensoredBiscuit: Use [agreed] I think...
<JackyAlcine> CensoredBiscuit: That's towards the end of the meeting.
<hajour> but its volunteer its not something everyone must do from the team
<CensoredBiscuit> very well
<CensoredBiscuit> next topic
<JackyAlcine> CensoredBiscuit: yeah [agreed] to soldify results.
<hajour> only if the person self it wants
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Licensing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Licensing
<RainCT> Hey
<UndiFineD> hey RainCT
<hajour> hai RainCT
<phillw> hi RainCT
<MrChrisDruif> So now we skip Documentation? :-/
<RainCT> Sorry, just got home (well, actually I arrived 15 minutes ago but Debian decided it wants to check the disk for errors -.-. I should really disable those checks)
<JackyAlcine> Well, someone's a celebrity. lol
<CensoredBiscuit> We already discuiss documentation?
<MrChrisDruif> CensoredBiscuit: Partly...
<UndiFineD> documentation is already a W.I.P.
<hajour> CensoredBiscuit, i  think some wants to tell more about documentation
<JackyAlcine> Well, lol.
<CensoredBiscuit> anways
<CensoredBiscuit> lets go back
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] documentation
<MootBot> New Topic:  documentation
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: when myself and cproffit get some quality time together, we will put the new headers on and start to split the pages.
<phillw> he has already created them
<MrChrisDruif> phillw: Alright, I didn't know that. I already started a bit on that :)
<CensoredBiscuit> the pages do seem cluttered
<UndiFineD> well we can split so topics from the current pages
<UndiFineD> *some
<phillw> CensoredBiscuit: that is because we have not had chance to start splitting them
<UndiFineD> heh
<CensoredBiscuit> very well.
<JackyAlcine> How about a spot for blueprints?
<JackyAlcine> Just a wish :)
<CensoredBiscuit> there is the proposed adition of a developmental page
<MrChrisDruif> phillw: Shall I continue with it or leave you and Charles to it?
<UndiFineD> alright weÄºl make room for that
<phillw> UndiFineD: exactly that, but Myself and cproffit need a bit of time to edit the current accessibility header into speechcontrol, we are making progress :)
<UndiFineD> ok :)
<CensoredBiscuit> the blueprints would be on the development page wouldn't it be?
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: charles has already made the new headers.
<UndiFineD> CensoredBiscuit: the blueprints are on LP
<CensoredBiscuit> so then why do we need them on wiki?
<JackyAlcine> They usually want a link to a Wiki with more information.
<phillw> CensoredBiscuit: for the speechcontrol header :D
<CensoredBiscuit> ahh so link the header to LP?
<UndiFineD> so the wiki blueprints are for further details
<JackyAlcine> Something like that.
<CensoredBiscuit> very well,
<JackyAlcine> ^^ yeah
<CensoredBiscuit> now lets move to licensing?
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Licensing in GPL
<MootBot> New Topic:  Licensing in GPL
<UndiFineD> yes
<hajour> so the bleuprints come on the wiki
<CensoredBiscuit> We are going to license the project in GPL
<UndiFineD> good choice which version ?
<CensoredBiscuit> the agenda does not state
<MrChrisDruif> 3
<MrChrisDruif> It's on the wiki
<CensoredBiscuit> verywell
<phillw> hopefully this should be quick... As the licence is now on the speechcontrol wiki page, that allows the team to retain copyright, others to alter the code and commercial companies cannot steal it
<MrChrisDruif> Atleast, the logo from 3 is on it...
<JackyAlcine> We're licensing every bit of code that SpeechControl produces under the GPL3 license.
<CensoredBiscuit> I think GPL 3 is indeed the way to go.
<RainCT> GPLv3 or GPLv3+?
<bedahr> the distribution restrictions on the development code only apply to wintermute, not speech-control, right?
<CensoredBiscuit> I believe that is correct bedahr
<phillw> RainCT: we're on GPLv3
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: Define 'restrictions'.
<strikeu> JackyAlcine: how about LGPL for libs ?
<UndiFineD> strikeu: no, one licence
<phillw> strikeu: the GPL people really do not like LGPL, it cuts down on collabaration.
<CensoredBiscuit> one license would be a lot less work to implement
<bedahr> JackyAlcine: your mail said that the code (for, I'm presuming, wintermute) was not to be made public
<RainCT> CensoredBiscuit: Uhm, how so? It wouldn't make a difference.     I agree with GPL being better than LGPL though.
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: In its intial stages, yes.
<strikeu> heh
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: That'll be explained.
<hajour>  GPLv3 was good i have informed
<CensoredBiscuit> Verywell
<JackyAlcine> hajour decided.
<CensoredBiscuit> lets move on to the listing of our projects
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Listing Of Projects
<MootBot> New Topic:  Listing Of Projects
<JackyAlcine> Alright.
<CensoredBiscuit> The current projects I know of are Simon Listens, Julius and Wintermute
<CensoredBiscuit> but I'm probably going to let JackyAlcine have this part
<JackyAlcine> So far, SpeechControl's primary concern has been getting the Java-based TTS engine, openMary to be more Linux-friendly.
<bedahr> (For the record: The software project is called "simon" - "simon listens" is the non-profit organization behind it)
<MrChrisDruif> Java based...yagh
<JackyAlcine> that's under the libopenmary, python-openmary and speechcontrol-daemon
<JackyAlcine> speechcontrol-daemon's a special project to be ventured because it'll intergrate voice recognition into the Linux Speech API.
<CensoredBiscuit> So is there anyone here who can list the projects and there attendees?
<JackyAlcine> CensoredBiscuit: I'm doing so.
<CensoredBiscuit> okay then.
<JackyAlcine> Wintermute's another project that'll be discussed in a few moments that'll will be one of the larger goals and pursuits of SpeechControl Developers.
<phillw> we have 10 minutes left.....
<JackyAlcine> We'll have to move it to #ubuntu-speechcontrol then.
<JackyAlcine> BUT I'm done with this section.
<CensoredBiscuit> Lets go to the progress on simon listens
<CensoredBiscuit> or just sim
<CensoredBiscuit> simon*
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Simon
<MootBot> New Topic:  Simon
<UndiFineD> the suggestion to discuss winitermute in #ubuntu-speechcontrol seems fine :)
<DanteAshton> *heads there*
<CensoredBiscuit> are you wanting to further contine the meeting in speech control JackyAlcine
 * techgeek_squared also heads there
<JackyAlcine> Yes, CensoredBiscuit but after we end here.
<CensoredBiscuit> very weel
<CensoredBiscuit> anyone have any word on the development of Simon
<UndiFineD> bedahr: ?
<bedahr> yes
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: I've been keeping up with your blog; congrats. :D
<phillw> use the devs area while you people discuss dev issuues, It is why it is there :)
<bedahr> well to be honest I have been pretty swamped this last couple of weeks (university) but I think it's RainCT who you want to talk to anyways
<bedahr> RainCT: Was there any progress on the patches
<RainCT> Not yet, I've just finished exams.
<CensoredBiscuit> So not much progress on Simon?
<CensoredBiscuit> anyways lets move on to Julius
<bedahr> no but again, there aren't any real open todos on simon anyways in my opinion?
<bedahr> aside from packaging I don't have anything on my todo list related to speechcontrol
<bedahr> have I forgotten anything?
<CensoredBiscuit> Nope
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: Aside from that, no.
<JackyAlcine> bedahr: You're clear ;]
<CensoredBiscuit> okay lets move on to Julius
<bedahr> JackyAlcine: :D
<CensoredBiscuit> topic] Julius Development
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] Julius Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Julius Development
<CensoredBiscuit> any word on Julius?
<JackyAlcine> I've taken a pick at the software; god do I regret doing that.
<JackyAlcine> It's not too user-friendly upon install and first configuration.
<JackyAlcine> And such issues can be fixed with approriate tools.
<MrChrisDruif> JackyAlcine: So that would need to improve?
<JackyAlcine> Greatly.
<CensoredBiscuit> we're gonna need to move the meeting to #ubuntu-speechcontrol
<CensoredBiscuit> but quickly before we do
<MrChrisDruif> CensoredBiscuit: Suggestion: just go there?
<UndiFineD> next meeting time and chair ?
<CensoredBiscuit> would you all like to discuss the details of next meeting?
<JackyAlcine> lol
<CensoredBiscuit> [topic] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<CensoredBiscuit> I think It should be a saturday
<JackyAlcine> O.o THIS Saturday?
<UndiFineD> no
<UndiFineD> :)
<JackyAlcine> *whew*
<hajour> no not this Saturday
<CensoredBiscuit> how about Feb 19  UTC 20:00
 * strikeu this is madness
<CensoredBiscuit> hows that?
<JackyAlcine> In the DEV channel (#ubuntu-speechcontrol-devs); we're out of time.
<CensoredBiscuit> end meeting?
<strikeu> yeah I'm going play sc2
<hajour> talking futher in #ubuntu-speechcontrol-devs
<CensoredBiscuit> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:59.
<hajour> thanks for doing the chair CensoredBiscuit
<JackyAlcine> cheers to CensoredBiscuit. o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-23
<nhandler> Meeting time. jussi, tsimpson, Pici, topyli: Who is here?
<nhandler> Hey topyli
<topyli> hi nhandler
<nhandler> We'll see if we have quorum
<tsimpson> isn't the 30th the last sunday of the month?
<topyli> i saw jussi alive a while ago
<topyli> tsimpson: oh it is :)
<nhandler> tsimpson: Hmm...You are right. Let me see what is up with the fridge
<topyli> i booboo'd the NEXTMEETING page after the last meeting i suppose
<nhandler> The issue is, it looks like the Fridge can only repeat on the nth Sunday of the month (and doesn't have a 'last sunday' option)
<nhandler> So, do you guys want to meet now or wait a week?
<topyli> maybe we could approve the shell policy now
<tsimpson> it says '-1SU', which should be the last sunday, but meh
<nhandler> topyli: I am fine with doing that. My only concern with the current document is that it says "a blanket ban *will* be placed across the Ubuntu IRC Core Channels". I would like to s/will/may/ to allow some actual human judgement in determining whether to set the ban (i.e. if a host is cooperative and actively fighting abuse of their service, but they just didn't have a documented policy, but are working with us to set ...
<nhandler> ... one up, a ban might be more hassle than it solves)
<nhandler> tsimpson: I'll manually go through and adjust it through the end of the year
<nhandler> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:08. The chair is nhandler.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Approval of IRC/ShellPolicy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Approval of IRC/ShellPolicy
<tsimpson> ah, it says "Monthly on the fourth Sunday" on google, that must be it
<nhandler> So any other comments on this topic?
<topyli> nhandler: yes let's change that
<nhandler> topyli: Change what? The s/will/may/ ?
<topyli> yes
<nhandler> I've made the change to the draft. Are there any other issues/concerns? Or should we vote?
<tsimpson> are there any currently banned shell hosts?
<topyli> i've been happy with it
<topyli> bshellz?
<tsimpson> I think they are too, so they should be listed I guess
<tsimpson> other than that, I'm happy with the document
<nhandler> [VOTE] Approve IRC/ShellPolicy
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Approve IRC/ShellPolicy.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> +
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<nhandler> [AGREED] Approve IRC/ShellPolicy
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Approve IRC/ShellPolicy
<nhandler> Would someone like to take the action to announce the approval, update the wiki page to remove the draft header, and add any links/factoids you feel are necessary to make the page easy to find?
<topyli> i can do that
<topyli> never fiddled with factoids before, but iirc i now have access :)
<nhandler> [ACTION] topyli to announce the approval, update wiki page to remove draft header, and add any links/factoids he feels are necessary to make the page easy to find
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to announce the approval, update wiki page to remove draft header, and add any links/factoids he feels are necessary to make the page easy to find
<topyli> no new bugs
<nhandler> topyli: If not, we can help sort that out ;)
<topyli> yep
 * nhandler goes to see if we have outstanding actions from the last meeting
<nhandler> It doesn't look like the council has any actions outstanding from the last meeting.
<nhandler> So do we want to still meet next Sunday?
<tsimpson> if people show up I guess
<topyli> i don't mind if we do, it's the correct day :)
<nhandler> Alright. I'll update the Fridge Calendar to try and avoid incidents like this in the future
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to update fridge calendar to reflect correct dates for Sunday meeting through end of 2011
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to update fridge calendar to reflect correct dates for Sunday meeting through end of 2011
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to do post-meeting actions
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to do post-meeting actions
<nhandler> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:20.
<topyli> thanks guys
<hakimsheriff> Is there a ubuntu gaming team meeting now?
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-16
<bkerensa> !netcat | bkerensa
<AlecTaylor> hi
<bkerensa> hi
<AlecTaylor> Is there a neat open-source solution like eventbrite or meetup.com?
 * AlecTaylor opened up the discussion over whether I should open-source my SaaS: http://openclosedsource.wikia.com
<AlecTaylor> Will open-sourcing my SaaS solution adversely affect my revenue? - Contribute to Discussion and Notes: http://openclosedsource.wikia.com / http://programmers.stackexchange.com/q/130341
<brendand> AlecTaylor - this isn't really the place for such a topic
<micahg> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, persia, Laney, micahg, geser, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<tumbleweed> o/
<Laney> hi thar
 * stgraber waves
<tumbleweed> aw, no applicants
<Laney> REJECT THEM ALL
<stgraber> wow, has been a while since we had that situation :)
<micahg> am I next on the rotation for chair?
<Laney> no meeting, no chair :P
<micahg> well, we do have business :)
<stgraber> can we drop Sylvestre Ledru from the agenda? I think he's been on there for almost a year (if not more ;))
<tumbleweed> micahg: i suspect so
<Laney> sure
<micahg> ok, let's get started
<micahg> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 16 14:07:32 2012 UTC.  The chair is micahg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<micahg> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous action items
<micahg> #subtopic cody-somerville to write some documentation on how to endorse someone
<micahg> do we know if that was done?
<Laney> i think he said he was going to send it before this meeting, and I haven't seen anything
<Laney> so ...
<micahg> ok, carried fwd
<micahg> #subtopic bdrung to talk to the TB about harmonising DMB members' expiration dates for easier restaffing
<micahg> this was done
<micahg> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001161.html
<micahg> #topic Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg)
<micahg> oops, I meant to do that under previous actions
<micahg> I'll have this ready for the next meeting
<micahg> #topic Expiring members terms
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  Expiring members terms
<micahg> #topic DMB members terms expiring
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  DMB members terms expiring
<micahg> that's a little less grim :-/
<micahg> #info laney and geser's terms for the DMB are ending 2012-02-13
<Laney> what is the if-extended expiration date? :-)
<Laney> +1y?
<micahg> yes
<tumbleweed> err, surely we're electing for 2 years?
<micahg> so, as the initial date was an error, we can ask the TB to extend the term 1yr as we did for the rest of the members from that election if desired
<micahg> otherwise, as we're 1 month out, we'd need to call for nominations for 2 weeks and then have the election
<Laney> geser's too?
<micahg> Laney: yes, both of you
<Laney> yeah they both were
<Laney> well I'm happy to be extended, I've decided
<micahg> geser: what about you?
<Laney> my initial request not to be came around the 'difficult time' :P
<geser> I won't extend, so my seat gets free
<micahg> #action micahg to E-Mail TB to extend Laney's term 1yr (as the initial date was an error)
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to E-Mail TB to extend Laney's term 1yr (as the initial date was an error)
<micahg> Laney: would you be up for running this election?
<Laney> I did the last one ...
<geser> I've been on MC and DMB for almost 4 years, so I need to take a break (besides I'm missing time to do it properly)
<micahg> ok, then, any volunteers?
 * tumbleweed supposes he can
<Laney> good man
<tumbleweed> still have scripts?
<micahg> #action tumbleweed to run the election to fill geser's seat
<meetingology> ACTION: tumbleweed to run the election to fill geser's seat
<Laney> scripts for what?
<tumbleweed> the vote e-mail address collection
<micahg> #action tumbleweed to send mail requesting nominations for the open DMB seat
<meetingology> ACTION: tumbleweed to send mail requesting nominations for the open DMB seat
<geser> the only needed script is to collect the e-mail addresses from LP for CIVS
<tumbleweed> yes
<micahg> yes, but that's part 2, first comes the call for nominees
<tumbleweed> of course
<micahg> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<micahg> anyone?
<Laney> nah, just iterated through launchpad.people['ubuntu-dev'].participants
<tumbleweed> Laney: ok
<micahg> going once
<geser> Laney: this works recursively for sub-teams?
<micahg> twice
<micahg> #topic select chair for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  select chair for next meeting
<Laney> yes
<micahg> stgraber: looks like you're next
<micahg> does that work?
<stgraber> yep
<tumbleweed> did geser do one this cycle?
<micahg> #info stgraber to chair next meeting
<micahg> tumbleweed: yes, first one in Dec IIRC
<micahg> of course if he'd wish to do another one...
<tumbleweed> heh
<micahg> ok, thanks everyone
<micahg> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 16 14:23:09 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-16-14.07.moin.txt
<tumbleweed> well, I suppose I'll call for nominations for one seat (assuming the tb extend laney's seat, otherwise, he can nominate himself)
<Laney> maybe stgraber can just extend the membership
<micahg> yes, that would work :)
<micahg> stgraber: can you do that or should I make an official request?
<tumbleweed> not that this helps our harmonisation
<micahg> or both
<tumbleweed> but people will always retire at unusal times...
<stgraber> micahg: I think it'd be best to have an official request to the TB. I'm happy to do it then though :)
<micahg> stgraber: alright, thanks
<Laney> I'll be the same as cody, emmet and stÃ©phane then
<micahg> and I concur
<Laney> very harmonious
<micahg> yes, we can still end up with one election per year which works out fine
<tumbleweed> true
<micahg> ok, I have to run, I'll send out the meeting notes tonight
<Laney> perhaps, when you remove Sylvester, you could email him asking to resubmit the application at any time (with more positive endorsements)
<Laney> Sylvestre
<micahg> ok, can do
<Laney> grand
 * tumbleweed cribs from Laney's last call for nominations mail
<Laney> smashing idea
 * tumbleweed also asks for people to amke their addresses publiclly visible
<geser> micahg: having one election every year (and (re-)electing half the team) guarantees at least some expierenced members in the team (instead of a completely new team in worst case)
<ara> hello!
<roadmr> howdy!
<roadmr> so it's... 16:00 UTC!
<roadmr> that means it's Ubuntu Friendly time!
<jedimike> heyhey!
<roadmr> jedimike: glad you're here, today's topic will require your input :)
<roadmr> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 16 16:01:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is roadmr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<roadmr> Hi everyone, welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly meeting!
<roadmr> Today we have the following topics to talk about:
<roadmr> * Link to feedback in answers.launchpad.net from a system's UF page - roadmr
<roadmr> * Any Other Business
<roadmr> As usual, you're quite welcome to participate, to do so, indicate you want to speak by raising your hand (o/). Don't forget to also signal when you're done using ..
<roadmr> Let's get started with the agenda!
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Link to feedback in answers.launchpad.net from a system's UF page - roadmr
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Link to feedback in answers.launchpad.net from a system's UF page - roadmr
<roadmr> The other day a user in #ubuntu-testing was inquiring about his laptop. He had to do several tweaks to get it working, and then submitted results to Ubuntu Friendly.
<roadmr> He asked me what would be a good place to document those tweaks. I pointed him to the "feedback" link in a system's page.
<roadmr> He then asked me if that feedback (in answers.launchpad.net) is visible, or at least accessible in a system's UF page.
<roadmr> The answer seems to be "no", which was disappointing to him because then all his effort testing and documenting his tweaks will be much less "discoverable" and doesn't benefit the community all that much.
<roadmr> So the question here is, would establishing such a link, or ideally making the answers.launchpad.net feedback visible directly in a system's UF page, be worth the effort? and on that topic, what would be the effort involved?
<roadmr> ..
<ara> o/
<roadmr> ara, your turn (heh)
<ara> The first thing that we would need to solve, is a way to "link" a particular answer with a cid
<ara> does answers have tags?
<ara> ..
<ara> o/
<roadmr> ara: heheh, go :) (btw I see no tags in answers.launchpad.net)
<ara> or maybe create a related FAQ per system, but that seems a lot of work
<ara> ..
<jedimike> o/
<roadmr> jedimike: go ahead!
<jedimike> it's really difficult to get back any answers posts for an ubuntu friendly system, because the only info we pass to answers is the make/model of the system to pre-populate the title field
<jedimike> the end user can change this in any way they like
<jedimike> Launchpad is down at the moment so I can't see if there is a tagging system, I've not seen one before though
<jedimike> even with tagging, we'd have to let UF know which tags were relevant for each system
<jedimike> the other way to do it might be...
<cr3> o/
<jedimike> if we see a good answers post, we could manually link it to the UF system on the UF side
<jedimike> ...
<roadmr> cr3, your turn
<cr3> two potential solutions to linking answers:
<cr3> 1. pseudo tag in one of the answers, like: #UF: make/model
<cr3> 2. link to bug which has a tag
<cr3> ..
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> cr3: go, hehe
<cr3> I'd be more inclined to have the linking user interaction on the launchpad side than on the UF side so that the latter can remain without user interaction
<cr3> ..
<jedimike> o/
<roadmr> hmm the tag-answer sounds interesting
<roadmr> jedimike, go ahead
<jedimike> i agree with cr3, if we can do the linking on the launchpad side, we should
<jedimike> ...
<brendand> o/
<roadmr> brendand: go ahead :)
<brendand> the answers are created from UF itself? if so, can UF be fed back the id of the answer?
<brendand> ..
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> cr3, go
<cr3> it could be possible to have the question created from UF phrased in such a way that it could be folded back into UF
<cr3> ..
<roadmr> ^^ this may work but what if the user changes the phrasing?
<roadmr> is there any API access to answers.launchpad.net?
<jedimike> o/
<roadmr> jedimike: go ahead!
<cr3> roadmr: I don't think we can get the identifier of the answer back from redirecting to a launchpad answer, unless we have a question form on UF itself which creates the entry on behalf of the user. this becomes complicated if we want to have the answer linked to the launchpad user
<jedimike> if we rely on the phrasing of the question, and the user changes it, we'd lose the link
<jedimike> ..
<cr3> perhaps worth raising on launchpad-dev mailing list
<roadmr> maybe so!
<roadmr> it seems complicated!
 * roadmr thinks everybody is thinking :)
<roadmr> how about using something other than answers.launchpad.net for the feedback?
<cr3> roadmr: probably complicated enough not to be solved here :)
<cr3> roadmr: could someone take an action item to raise with launchpad-dev?
 * cr3 should be slapped around for talking without raising hand
<roadmr> cr3: that'd be great! I think either you or jedimike know those folks best, would you like to volunteer?
<cr3> roadmr: sure, cc jedimike
<roadmr> [ACTION] cr3 to inquire in lauchpad-dev about API access to answers.launchpad.net
<meetingology> ACTION: cr3 to inquire in lauchpad-dev about API access to answers.launchpad.net
<roadmr> anything else we can do on this topic?
 * jedimike doesn't think so
<roadmr> hmm OK, let's see what launchpad-dev thinks and go from there.
<roadmr> To be fair, we've only received one request for this functionality, so we may defer work on it until there's a big demand for it
<roadmr> but it sounds sensible to at least have an idea on how to proceed - and also, it seems like such an obvious feature we should have
<roadmr> anyway, moving on
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<ara> o/
<roadmr> ara: go ahead!
<ara> Canonical's community team has a new member, responsible for the QA community
<ara> I guess we should reach him to count on friendly
<ara> (and maybe take care of the community part of it...)
<ara> Nicholas I think is his name
<ara> ..
<ara> dholbach, ^
<roadmr> ara: so should one of us contact him and let him know about UF?
<ara> I think so, what do you guys think?
 * roadmr thinks it's OK if it extends our reach into the community
<roadmr> Ubuntu Friendly has been a bit quiet lately
<dholbach> ara: it's Nicholas Skaggs, balloons is his nick name
<ara> cool, I can take the action item
<roadmr> [ACTION] Ara to contact Nicholas Skaggs (balloons) to introduce the Ubuntu Friendly community
<meetingology> ACTION: Ara to contact Nicholas Skaggs (balloons) to introduce the Ubuntu Friendly community
<roadmr> awesome!
<roadmr> Anything else on this topic?
<roadmr> nothing.. Any other topics/ business to discuss?
<roadmr> any takers? :)
<roadmr> Well then...
<roadmr> let's end this meeting!
<roadmr> Well I guess this wraps things up for today. Thanks for attending! Remember the mailing list is open to all your UF-related comments and inquiries.
<ara> thanks roadmr!
<roadmr> Thanks all for attending and for your comments and feedback! Have a great day!
<roadmr> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 16 16:34:32 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-16-16.01.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-17
<lynxman> o/
<Ursinha> meeting?
 * jamespage waves 
<jamespage> o/
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> (on a call)
 * arosales hello
<adam_g> \o
<jamespage> whos in the seat this week?
<zul> hey
<Daviey> Clint, but i think he is absent
<Daviey> So... rooaksox! :)
<Daviey> roaksoax: startmeeting :)
 * robbiew lurks
<roaksoax> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 17 16:06:05 2012 UTC.  The chair is roaksoax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<roaksoax> rbasak to try precise on pandaboard
<roaksoax> he's not in the channel so I guess we can move on
<Daviey> I think he did try it last week
<Daviey> so DONE
<roaksoax> ok then
<arosales> roaksoax: yes, Tobin from the ARM team had also confirmed that along with Robbie.
<roaksoax> arosales: great! thanks for the update!
<roaksoax> let's move on then
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<roaksoax> Daviey: the floor is yours
<Daviey> Following the rally last week we have a clearer direction.
<Daviey> Some things are being changed, and the blueprints will reflect this shortly.
<Daviey> Lets burn through the todo list.
<hallyn> will there be surprises for any of us?
<robbiew> hooyah!
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<robbiew> hallyn: yes...you now work on iscsi
<Daviey> zul: bug 879853 ?
<robbiew> lol
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879853 in munin (Ubuntu) "Munin upload 1.4.6-1ubuntu1 drops fixes / sponsor debdiff instead" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879853
<robbiew> (j/k)
<zul> done..
<hallyn> lol
<Daviey> poor hallyn
<Daviey> zul: update so?
<Daviey> zul: bug 883988
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "db migration failing when upgrading glance - trying to create existing tables" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<zul> still havent beeen able to reproduce it
<adam_g> Daviey: upstream is apparently tracking that
<Daviey> adam_g: sweet!
<adam_g> its easily reproduced, but needs upstream to figure out what they're doing with db migrations (kind of a mess ATM, IMHO)
<Daviey> bug 893926 , mainerror ?  How is it looking
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<SpamapS> o/
<Daviey> ok.. i'll track him down.
<Daviey> bug 906163
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 906163 in glance (Ubuntu) "Glance-common installation failing in Ubuntu with the new release" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/906163
<Daviey> zul: ^^ ?
<zul> fixed
 * Daviey suggests fixed bugs contain the fixed released status :)
<zul> makes send
<Ursinha> :)
<zul> makes sense
<Daviey> bug 911812 , up for grabs, adam_g or roaksoax ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 911812 in facter (Ubuntu Precise) "processor fact does not handle arm, others" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/911812
<Daviey> or anyone else... looks ike checking a patch and landing it.
<roaksoax> I'll take it
<Daviey> rocking
<Daviey> bug 915971
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 915971 in nova (Ubuntu) "New command "guestmount"" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915971
<Daviey> zul: ^^ ?
<zul> still waiting for info
<Daviey> adam_g: is bug 916992 also under investigation upstream?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916992 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Database migration v064 fails against MySQL 5.5 + InnoDB" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916992
<adam_g> Daviey: yes, i have a patch but unforutnately am locked out of gerrit still, and the openstack QA team is on conference leave somewhere far
<Daviey> adam_g: gah... :/
<adam_g> Daviey: ive assigned myself to the ubuntu task for now
<Daviey> bug 75262
<zul> adam_g: i could do it for you
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 75262 in libwnck (Ubuntu) "[Feisty] Bad depends" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/75262
<Daviey> err
<Daviey> bug 875262
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<zul> geez feisty :)
<Daviey> SpamapS: Were you working with koolhead17 on this? :)
<SpamapS> I recall a question or two, but nothing recent
<Daviey> SpamapS: would you be able to drive it to compleition?
<Daviey> bug 891433 , utlemming ...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891433 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "squid3 miss_access bug, fix not included in LTS" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891433
<SpamapS> Yes, there's a merge pending for 5.3.9 anyway
<Daviey> Seems utlemming isn't here.. will poke later.
<Daviey> SpamapS: \o/
<Daviey> bug 607039 , up for grabs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<Daviey> All rush at once! :)
<Daviey> smb: Ah, is that yours?
<SpamapS> Its still "New", so is the first step to confirm it?
<Daviey> SpamapS: right, the LP status doesn't reflect the real status.
<Daviey> Not sure who is currently driving it.. is it you smb ?
<smb> Daviey, It was... then someone wanted to help... was that zul or hallyn
<hallyn> i've been involved before
<hallyn> at this point we need someone familiar with module-init-tools to step in
<Daviey> Do we know who that is?
<hallyn> who babysits that?
<smb> The thing is that I was lost a bit to where to add the additional alias
<hallyn> right, bc the file where debian has it, we don't ship
<smb> iow is nfs-common allowed to create a file in /etc/modprobe.d
<Daviey> smb / hallyn: we'll continue this outside the meeting in #ubuntu-devel.
<Daviey> bug 890362 : zul ?
<smb> ack
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890362 in nova (Ubuntu) "Should user's shell be /bin/false?" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890362
<zul> Daviey: umm..
<zul> yeah
<Daviey> ?
<Daviey> zul: status?
<zul> ill take another look
<Daviey> cool
<Daviey> roaksoax: bug 898840
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898840 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "'default' preseed should be enlister" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898840
<roaksoax> Daviey: was waiting for the updates after the sprint
<roaksoax> to work on that
<Daviey> jamespage: Do you know how bug 904681 is looking ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904681 in Ubuntu "precise amd64 minimal-virtual install is oversized" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904681
<Daviey> roaksoax: cool, that bug is still valid currently.
<jamespage> Daviey: still to big :-)
<Daviey> as long as it's not too big, i'm happy. :)
<Daviey> Okay, thanks
<jamespage> 550MB
<jamespage> ish
<Daviey> jamespage: and the limit is?
<jamespage> 500MB
<jamespage> 10% oversized
<Daviey> ok, thanks
<Daviey> anyone want that one?
 * Daviey snaps it up for himself.
<Daviey> zul: bug 906654 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 906654 in nova (Ubuntu) "nova should depend on openstackx and load appropriate osapi_extensions by default" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/906654
<adam_g> Daviey: ill take that. im looking at that now, the middleware has changed again upstream
<zul> Daviey: still waiting for MIR
<Daviey> adam_g: rocking
<Daviey> bug 906735 : adam_g is that one for you? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 906735 in puppet (Ubuntu) "logrotate can't find /var/log/puppet if package was removed and that directory was empty" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/906735
<adam_g> Daviey: sure
<Daviey> rocking
<Daviey> zul: bug 907197 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907197 in nova (Ubuntu) "ip address can't be injected into the instance when using lxc " [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907197
<Daviey> (wow, zul - lots of bugs :)
<zul> fml
<zul> ill look into it
<Daviey> cool
<Daviey> bug 913739 , looks not too bad
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913739 in nova (Ubuntu) "nova-objectstore logrotate script uses 'dpkg-vendor'" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913739
<Daviey> patch supplied!
<Daviey> bug 914257
<zul> fixed last week need to update it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914257 in horizon (Ubuntu) "local_settings.py isn't installed as a config file" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914257
<Daviey> zul: ^^
<Daviey> lynxman: bug 916489 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916489 in ipxe (Ubuntu) "grub-ipxe says "B: command not found"" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916489
<Daviey> (needs new upstream snapshot)
<smoser> o/ sorry to be late.
<adam_g> zul: Daviey that local_settings.py one may be invalid or need to be renamed, since new packages do not install local_settings.py at all anymore
<Daviey> smoser: I think your lateness just signed you up to bug 917471 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917471 in bacula (Ubuntu) "Please upgrade to the latest upstream bug fix release for precise" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917471
<Daviey> adam_g: oh sweet, maybe you should own that one then?
<adam_g> Daviey: gimme!
<Daviey> zul: ^^ ?
<smoser> Daviey, sure. i'll do that bacula upgrade
<zul> Daviey: the bacula one?
<Daviey> zul: no.. adam_g having that one
<Daviey> smoser: rocking
<zul> Daviey: ah k
<Daviey> bug 833499
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 833499 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "virt/disk.py unconditionally inserts public_keys into /root/.ssh/authorized_keys" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833499
<Daviey> *awesome* bug.
<Daviey> is that a smoser one aswell?
<Daviey> (i know you love that one)
<smoser> i opened that bug.
<zul> i have that on my list, its submitted upstream (the fix) but i need to redo it
<smoser> the fix is submitted upstream?
<smoser> really?
<Daviey> zul: cool, can you assign yourself pls?
<zul> yeah
<zul> smoser: proposed, got a -1 so far
<Daviey> bug 901881
<smoser> could you link to it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901881 in glance (Ubuntu) "nova should depend on python-keystone" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901881
<smoser> in the bug
<Daviey> zul: capture that last one there ^^ in the next upload?
<Daviey> rbasak: bug 889644 , is that one you were tracking?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889644 in openmpi (Ubuntu) "Please update OpenMPI to the 1.5 upstream version" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889644
<rbasak> yes
<zul> Daviey: still blocked on the keystone MIR
<rbasak> last status is that it's in debian experimental but ftbfs on both debian and ubuntu on arm
<Daviey> rbasak: does it just need a sync now?
<rbasak> I haven't had a chance to look further
<Daviey> ah crappers.
<Daviey> rbasak: can you assign yourself?
<rbasak> will do
<Daviey> release blocking bug 907206 !
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907206 in keystone (Ubuntu) "SPACES missed in /usr/share/man/man8/keystone.8.gz" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907206
<Daviey> anyone want to grab it?
<zul> seriously?
<zul> ill take it
<Daviey> err, bitesize.
<Daviey> bug 912716
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912716 in apache2 (Ubuntu) "[improvement] allow graceful-stop via the init.d script" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912716
<Daviey> nice wishlist bug, hggdh want it? :)
<Daviey> bug 912716
<hggdh> Daviey: looking at it now
<Daviey> awesome!
<Daviey> bug 887186 , roaksoax - needs fixing i think, still.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887186 in orchestra (Ubuntu) "squid proxy big and small buckets not functioning correctly" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887186
<Daviey> bug 891977, assigned to the biggest slacker of them all.  He'll get to it.
<roaksoax> Daviey: seems to be lack of functionality of squid3, as higher upstream version seems to have functionality that was in 2.x
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891977 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "cobbler-web package still contain traces of Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891977
<Daviey> roaksoax: upstream regression?
<roaksoax> Daviey: apparently so, I'm planning to update squid to latest upstream and see if its reproduceable
<Daviey> sweet!
<Daviey> Okay, that is it for the to-do list.. any missing that should be there?
<Daviey> roaksoax: lets move on. :)
<roaksoax> alright
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<roaksoax> any upcoming events?
<Daviey> FOSDEM baby!
<robbiew> Austin Cloud Users Group tonight!
<robbiew> SCALE10X this weekend
<m_3> clint n jorge at scale!
<Daviey> 4th&5th of Feb, rbasak, jamespage, ttx and myself at FOSDEM..  Possibly soren?
<Daviey> m_3: does clint and jorge scale that large?
<ttx> yes, soren will be there
<Daviey> rocking!
<m_3> ...the whole is more than the sum of its parts...
<roaksoax> alright, I'm guessing that's about it then. Moving on...
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<roaksoax> hggdh: it's all yours
<SpamapS> Clint 'n Jorge are webSCALE ;)
<Daviey> hggdh: Who is best to cover this section, is it still you?
<hggdh> only worthy news: we have published a high-level view of the tests guidelines
<Daviey> on a related note, adam_g / jamespage: how is the CI going?
<hggdh> Daviey: I am not sure, I will ask the powers-that-be
<Daviey> hggdh: where are the test guidelines?
<hggdh> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuEngineering/QA/Automation/TestSubmissionGuidelines
<Daviey> hmm
<hggdh> this is WIP, and comments are appreciated
<Daviey> Perhaps put it on the ubuntu wiki? :)
<hggdh> as soon as it is at least sane, we will move it to w.u.c
<Daviey> right
<Daviey> thanks
<hggdh> ..
<Daviey> adam_g / jamespage: can you comment on CI testing status?
<Daviey> lets move on roaksoax.
<jamespage> progress OK last week; next task is enabling the tempest suite
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<roaksoax> smoser: you are up
<Daviey> lol
<smoser> i am up
<smb> Open for questions. Tried to get cobblestra working in small scale otherwise. And Xen managed through virt-manager :)
<smoser> ah.
<smoser> yeah.
<roaksoax> smoser: lol sorry :)
<smoser> i dont think i have any for smb today.
<Daviey> smoser: bug 907377 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907377 in linux (Ubuntu) "HP ProLiant DL360 G6 has debootstrap errors during install of Precise Alpha 1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907377
<Daviey> smb: is bug 902951 infact fixed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 902951 in linux (Ubuntu) "CONFIG_VIRTIO_BLK shouldnt be a module" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/902951
<smb> Daviey, Looking there seems like a iommu thing
<smb> Daviey, VIRTIO_BLK will be built in in precise
<smb> Need to update the bug probably
<Daviey> neat
<Daviey> The only other issue with the kernel seems to be odd sound on my laptop :).. but OT here. :)
<Daviey> i'm done, thanks smb
<roaksoax> alright, I guess we can move on
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<roaksoax> rbasak: your turn
<rbasak> So I spoke to the arm team last week
<rbasak> the consensus is that I will bridge the two meetings
<Daviey> \o/
<rbasak> precise is working on armhf for me now, juju still a bit broken
<Daviey> rbasak: have bugs?
<rbasak> I filed bug 917664 earlier
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917664 in juju (Ubuntu) "juju lxc on precise is hardcoded to oneiric" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917664
<rbasak> we're almost certainly going to be going for armhf on server
<Daviey> rbasak: do you think this is importiant to release of precise?
<rbasak> yes
 * Daviey adds it to the list.
<smoser> rbasak, so we decided i believe that there is no point in doing cloud-images for armel, right?
<rbasak> Yes, that's my understanding. Is there any reason we need them that I'm missing?
<smoser> we should have a bug for "replace armel with armhf(??) for arch of cloud-images" then
<smoser> i can't think of any
<lynxman> Daviey: Sorry was trapped in the juju world :) The new upstream snapshot is ready, packaged, branched and pending your review
<jamespage> ls
<SpamapS> rbasak: I believe that juju bug is actually already reported and assigned to hazmat...
<Daviey> lynxman: ah, linky?
<SpamapS> rbasak: bug 914392
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914392 in juju "LXC local provider does not respect 'series' (only installs oneiric)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914392
<lynxman> Daviey: https://code.launchpad.net/~lynxman/ubuntu/precise/ipxe/newsnapshot
<rbasak> SpamapS: agreed, thanks!
<Daviey> lynxman: thanks.
<Daviey> anything else?
<SpamapS> rbasak: marked as dupe
<rbasak> thanks SpamapS
<SpamapS> Daviey: ^^ please adjust accordingly
<rbasak> I'm done, I'll start keeping a proper list for future meetings
<roaksoax> ok then I guess we can move on if there's nothing else for rbasak
<Daviey> SpamapS: thanks
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<roaksoax> anyone from the community has anything to bring to the table?
 * ScottK is working with lamont on postfix updates.
<Daviey> ScottK: Awesome!!
<Daviey> ScottK: anything interesting in the pipelines?
<ScottK> He's doing 2.8.7 for precise and then I'll do microversion updates for natty/oneric.
<Daviey> \o/
<ScottK> This is just bug fixes.
<ScottK> Then backports for Lucid/Maverick.
<ScottK> But 2.9.0 is close.
<ScottK> That, interestingly enough, will have an optional memcached client.
<SpamapS> roaksoax: since I'm from the community.. I'd like to bring to the table that this particular section is rather troubling.. and that we should try to involve non-Canonical people in all sections, since we're all part of the "community"
<lynxman> Since it's QA time, it's worth submitting a bug for xen-tools? It says somewhere that it's being deprecated, nonetheless it's defaults are broken for creating new xen servers
<ScottK> SpamapS: +1
<lynxman> SpamapS: +1
<roaksoax> SpamapS: fine by me too
<rbasak> SpamapS: while I agree, I think it's important to give people a specific opportunity to comment! Better to have a specific agenda item than feel that there is no agenda item at all
<ScottK> Just change is to Other updates and questions.
<ScottK> is/it
<SpamapS> I believe this section used to be specifically updats from the Canonical "community team" and then was morphed to this.. but really, we're all at this meeting specifically to address the community as a whole.. so I see no need for this section.
<smb> lynxman, I am not sure I understand what you say. Maybe you could explain when I am more awake. :)
<roaksoax> I guess we can merge this topic with Open Discussion
<lynxman> smb: xen-tools generate xen images that lack the load of xenblk on startup so they always fall back to ramdisk
<ScottK> Yeah.
<SpamapS> rbasak: each agenda item is, and should be, oriented toward the community.
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<rbasak> SpamapS: absolutely - but is that communicated effectively at every meeting? Because this agenda item is.
<ScottK> roaksoax: I agree.  I thought this was a fancy name for open discussion.
<SpamapS> 2 minutes remaining..
<smb> lynxman, You know that we at least now built-in the frontend driver?
<SpamapS> we won't have time to finish this discussion here. Shall we defer to next week?
<roaksoax> ScottK: we have both at the moment :/
 * ScottK votes SpamapS for dictator of agenda reworking.
<ScottK> SpamapS: JFDI.  Fix it.
<SpamapS> roaksoax: action please?
<SpamapS> And then I suppose we should wrap up.
<lynxman> smb: I do, this is latest oneiric, broken ):
<lynxman> smb: bug has been sitting ducks
<roaksoax> [action] Discuss merge of Open Discussion with Community update topics
<meetingology> ACTION: Discuss merge of Open Discussion with Community update topics
<lynxman> smb: I'll raise it later
<Daviey> Everyone say hello to arosales, three cheers for the new Ubuntu Server Workloads Manager.
<smb> lynxman, k
<lynxman> arosales: \o/ \o/
<rbasak> hip hip
<SpamapS> \o/
<Daviey> hip hip.
<arosales> :-)
<jamespage> \o/
<m_3> arosales: hey!
<roaksoax> [topic] Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<roaksoax> same date/time
<arosales> thanks for the welcome :-)
<SpamapS> thanks for attending everyone!
<roaksoax> arosales: \o/
<SpamapS> roaksoax: thanks for scribing!!!
<Daviey> thanks roaksoax for driving.
<lynxman> roaksoax: \o/
<roaksoax> SpamapS: welcome ;)
 * SpamapS eyes the pensive kernel team and figures we should probably get outta here while the gettin's good
<roaksoax> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 17 17:01:55 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-17-16.06.moin.txt
<apw> o/
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<herton> o/
<kamal> pensive?
<kamal> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<smb> \o
<bjf> o/
<sforshee> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 17 17:02:21 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> P/master: patches for kexec (omap3-only for now) and Beagle XM detection landed.
<ppisati> P/omap4: a new kernel in is the pipe (3.2.0-1404.6) - rebased on top of 3.2.0-9.16, and TILT @ c39eb96.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incomming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-distro-team-precise-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw        || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || foundations-p-ipv6                    || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || jsalisbury || other-p-bug-workflows                 || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara  || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner   || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-2 work items.  Note that Alpha-2 is Thurs Feb 2.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> Power Management:
<cking>  * Framebuffer colours and backgrounds:
<cking>    http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/background-colour-and-framebuffer-compression/results.txt
<cking>  * Framebuffer compression:
<cking>    http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/background-colour-and-framebuffer-compression/results.txt
<cking>  * LVDS down clocking:
<cking>    http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/i915-lvds-downclocking
<cking>  * Found a bunch of power consumption bugs relating to misbehaving applications,   see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-power-consumption
<cking>  * Summary and wrap-up: http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/notes
<cking>  * pm-utils power.d updates now in Precise (thanks to pitti, slangasek)
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We rebased to v3.2.1 and uploaded linux-3.2.0-9.16 last friday.  I've
<ogasawara> also started prepping Precise LBM and plan to also open the Q git repo.
<ogasawara> Please keep in mind that Alpha 2 is nearing (Thurs Feb 2).  I plan on
<ogasawara> uploading our final Alpha2 kernel on either the Friday or Monday prior
<ogasawara> to the milestone.  For any patches needing to land in Alpha2, they need
<ogasawara> to be sent and applied before next Friday, Jan 27.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open       ||
<apw> ||                                          ||            ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   20 (+10) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||   12 (+5)  ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||   13 (+5)  ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||   13 (+4)  ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    9 (+2)  ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    7 (+1)  ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||   12 (+5)  ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||   15 (+8)  ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||   11 (+4)  ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||   11 (+4)  ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||   16 (+7)  ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||   12 (+3)  ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    8 (+1)  ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    7 (+1)  ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||   13 (+5)  ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||   13 (+4)  ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    9 (+2)  ||
<apw>  
<apw> In the last two weeks there have been 19 CVE added.  Many of these were
<apw> older CVEs where fixes have already hit our trees so the fallout is
<apw> somewhat mitigated.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (Jan. 17):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy - 2.6.24-30.98
<bjf>   * In updates. Next kernel will be prep'd next week.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Lucid - 2.6.32-38.82
<bjf>   * In "regression testing". There has been a single report of a regression
<bjf>     (bug 915788). However the submitter has been non-resposive since the
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 915788 in linux (Ubuntu) "kernel issues linux-image-2.6.32-37-generic" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915788
<bjf>     initial report.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-32.64
<bjf>   * Waiting to be copied to updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Natty - 2.6.38-13.53
<bjf>   * In "regression testing".
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Oneiric - 3.0.0-15.25
<bjf>   * In "regression testing".
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> going once
<jsalisbury> going twice
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 17 17:08:47 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-17-17.02.moin.txt
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<smb> thanks jsalisbury
 * bkerensa coughs
<cprofitt> hello bkerensa
<bkerensa> Did I somehow get the time wrong? :P
<cprofitt> no
<bkerensa> ok then :)
<bkerensa> hi jhmextern jvlb
<czajkowski> aloha
<czajkowski> #meeting
<TRAVISg> Hello all
<jhmextern> hello
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 17 20:04:16 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<c_smith> hello
<czajkowski> there we go
<albrigha> hello
<czajkowski> welcome to the loco council meeting
<ivanb> Hi all
<czajkowski> todays agenda is #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> from the loco council we have present
<ivanb> Hi from Montenegro team
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: cprofitt greg-g xdatap1 itnet7
<czajkowski> first tonight on the list is Montenegro
<adam_g> o/
<czajkowski> what will happen is I'll paste the link
<czajkowski> the team contact wil tell us about the team
<czajkowski> and the loco council will ask some questions
<czajkowski> than we shall vote
<tp0x45> ok
<czajkowski> everyone ok
<ivanb> ok
 * cprofitt nods
<czajkowski> #topic montenegro approval application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: montenegro approval application
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MontenegroTeam/ApprovalApplication
<czajkowski> tp0x45: hi there you're the team contact ?
<tp0x45> hi, yes
<tp0x45> there are also few other members here with me
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> great
<tp0x45> magio ivanb and shandy
<tp0x45> the team exists since 2007
<tp0x45> but we had sparse activity
<cprofitt> raise your hand if you are with Montenegro
 * tp0x45 raised hand :)
 * ivanb raise hand 2 :)
<shandy> o/
<czajkowski> welcome and thanks for coming
<shandy> :)
<magio> o/
<tp0x45> thanks! :)
<tp0x45> there is more details on our wiki page
<tp0x45> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MontenegroTeam
<tp0x45> and there is lot more on our site
<tp0x45> http://www.ubuntu-me.org/site/
<czajkowski> ok
<tp0x45> the most recent events are best seen on our "news" page
<tp0x45> http://www.ubuntu-me.org/site/vijesti/
<czajkowski> so firstly I see on lauchpad, which is what we base stuff on you have 19 members
<tp0x45> we organized several events last year
<czajkowski> #link https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-me
<tp0x45> those would be active members that we are trying to motivate to get more active roles in the team
<cprofitt> the website is well done.
<czajkowski> tp0x45: can you tell us how you organise events?
<tp0x45> the group has a very active Facebook group with around 280 members
<czajkowski> nice site
<tp0x45> we established a good relationship with University of Montenegro
<tp0x45> most of the events took place at the university
<czajkowski> tp0x45: thats nice but for approvals/re approvals we look at lp numbers as we use laucnhpad in the Ubuntu community y
<tp0x45> we also try to organize presentations with some privately held universitiels
<czajkowski> good stuff
<cprofitt> tp0x45: how do you leverage facebook for loco activities?
<tp0x45> and we try to keep the events logged and scheduled through ubuntu site
<tp0x45> that is the main focus right now to move FROM facebook to our site/forum/wiki and launchpad
 * cprofitt nods
<tp0x45> FB is extremely popular in Montenegro (50% population is on it) and we cannot ignore it
<tp0x45> we also reached out to the local media
<czajkowski> tp0x45: indeed I do appreciate that
<tp0x45> we have a good coverage in one of major daily newspapers
<cprofitt> that is fantastic; I think making use of the Ubuntu specific resources helps bring local members to the greater global Ubuntu community
<tp0x45> we just had a two page article on open source and ubuntu
<tp0x45> http://www.vijesti.me/vijesti/open-source-je-prilika-koju-crna-gora-ne-smije-propustiti-clanak-55530
<tp0x45> this was also published in the printed issue
<tp0x45> we have a good relationship with online magazine BITonline
<SergioMeneses> tp0x45, hi!...
<tp0x45> and they report on our activities
<tp0x45> we distributed 250 CDs in last 2-3 months
<czajkowski> well done I'm sure that went down well
<czajkowski> Can I ask why you don't do team report s?
<tp0x45> we had couple of major presentations at university of montenegro, faculty of science, and university of donja gorica
<tp0x45> we are trying to slowly migrate to launchapd, and ubuntu wiki... but the focus last year was on the website, wiki, forum
<tp0x45> and ofcourse presentations
<tp0x45> we also reached out to montenegrin government and we are trying to get their support to push open source and linux
<cprofitt> Some solid progress then tp0x45
<tp0x45> it is critical for us to get approved to become more seriously taken by the officials in various entities in Montenegro
<czajkowski> greg-g: itnet7 xdatap1 any comments
<cprofitt> tp0x45: I noticed that no events were planned so far for 2012; what is the reason for that?
<ivanb> indeed there was a lot of stuff we done in last 2-3 months , mostly focused on presentation during new Ubuntu relasie
<tp0x45> we usually plann them first on FB and via voice... then we document them on your site
<SergioMeneses> tp0x45, why two wikis: http://wiki.ubuntu-me.org and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MontenegroTeam
<czajkowski> tp0x45: while I do appreicate that, gting more people involved in the greated ubuntu community starts with using the tools there, so they learn about the community the CoC  and how to get involved in translations, Q&A and bugs
<SergioMeneses> ivanb, âââ
<tp0x45> one page is just info on the team on ubuntu sit
<tp0x45> e
<tp0x45> our wiki is in Montenegrin language
 * cprofitt nods
<czajkowski> but you cna have that on the Ubuntu wiki no ?
<tp0x45> we got more than 50 pages in last 3 months since we put it up
<SergioMeneses> tp0x45, oks!.. great!
<tp0x45> we kind of looked at what other groups did
<tp0x45> Romanian, Serbian, ...
<tp0x45> they all had wiki on their site
<xdatap1> tp0x45, are you doing translations on launchpad?
<tp0x45> Ubuntu anc Canonical were kind of slow on replying on our enquiry regarding domain and website hosting
<xdatap1> tp0x45, software translation i Mean
<tp0x45> and we purchased our own domain and created site
<SergioMeneses> tp0x45, nice wiki! really I like it
<tp0x45> software translation is one of the challeanges ahead
<tp0x45> Montenegrin language just recently took its own course
<tp0x45> it was all serbo-crotian till yugoslavia fell appart
<tp0x45> we are opening the communication with serbian team and other in the region regarding translations as it will be fairly similar
<tp0x45> the issues are also that Montenegro is sitll lackin ISO code for language
<tp0x45> and that is something we addressed to the university and government
<tp0x45> we also put a nice forum there on the site
<czajkowski> #voters cprofitt xdatap1 czajkowski SergioMeneses greg-g itnet7
<meetingology> Current voters: SergioMeneses cprofitt czajkowski greg-g itnet7 xdatap1
<tp0x45> fourm.ubuntu-me.org
<xdatap1> tp0x45, yes, I saw it, nice work :)
<tp0x45> we are trying to direct FB discussions to our forum
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the application of the Montenegro LoCo
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the application of the Montenegro LoCo
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +1 I would like to see all the members added to launchpad and team reports started please.
<meetingology> +1 I would like to see all the members added to launchpad and team reports started please. received from czajkowski
<czajkowski> 19 on lp and 250 on fb is a bit backwards for my liking:) I'd prefer the other way around
<tp0x45> I agree, I would like to see 30,000
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: cprofitt xdatap1 greg-g please!
<tp0x45> which is only 10% of Montenegro FB users :)
<xdatap1> +1 I agree with what czajkowski said
<meetingology> +1 I agree with what czajkowski said received from xdatap1
<cprofitt> +1 I would like to see continued events planned using the loco portal loco.ubuntu.com - it causes me some concern to not see events planned at this point
<meetingology> +1 I would like to see continued events planned using the loco portal loco.ubuntu.com - it causes me some concern to not see events planned at this point received from cprofitt
<SergioMeneses> +1 good work
<meetingology> +1 good work received from SergioMeneses
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the application of the Montenegro LoCo
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<nathwill> whoo!! :D congrats ubuntu-me!
<czajkowski> ok
<bkerensa> congrats
<bkerensa> \o/
<czajkowski> cprofitt: can you add the team to APPROVED loco and set expiration date for 2 years from now please
<ivanb> Thanks ! :)
<shandy> ty :)
<TRAVISg> congrats
<cprofitt> thank you Montenegro I look forward to hearing about the great things you do!!
<tp0x45> thanks!!! this will be very helpful for us to continue and motivate more people to join!!!
<tp0x45> thanks!
<SergioMeneses> congrats!
<ivanb> Thank You all !
<magio> tnx
<czajkowski> tp0x45: but please team reports !!!
<czajkowski> #topic Ubuntu Oregon LoCo approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Oregon LoCo approval
<bkerensa> Hello Council
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OregonTeam/ApprovalApplication
<cprofitt> czajkowski: added
<czajkowski> cprofitt: cheers
<czajkowski> bkerensa: welcome can you tell us about the team and how things are done please?
<bkerensa> Sure
 * slangasek waves
<bkerensa> I'm Team Lead and Nathwill is my Asst. Team Lead he shares leadership roles with me
<nathwill> go oregon!
<nathwill> ;)
<c_smith> lol
<bkerensa> We have about 8 members in channel right now
<adam_g> o/
<c_smith> *is a member*
<cprofitt> raise your hand if you are with Oregon
<TRAVISg> *Raises Hand*
<albrigha> o/
<jhmextern> raised hand
<c_smith> *raise hand*
<jvlb> Hand up.
 * nathwill throws one up
<czajkowski> bkerensa: well...
<bkerensa> Anyways so right now our LoCo has focused on local advocacy for Ubuntu. We have regular meetings on IRC every month and we have release parties, global jams and booths at just about every tech event in the region
 * slangasek raises hand
<bkerensa> Ubuntu Oregon is spearheading a initiative to work with Western Oregon University to mentor students in Comp Sci about Ubuntu
<bkerensa> Ubuntu Oregon will be starting to hold classes at the FreeGeek Community Center
<c_smith> may I add one thing?
<bkerensa> We also are working with other LUG's and User Groups to include OSU LUG, Debian Portland and also trying to help revive Salem LUG
<czajkowski> cprofitt: shoot
<czajkowski> c_smith: shoot
<c_smith> k, Ubuntu Oregon is working on getting an event set up in Salem,
<czajkowski> bkerensa: so do you do more lug work that Ubuntu work ?
<nathwill> czajkowski, is that specific to bkerensa, or applicable to the group as a whole?
<bkerensa> czajkowski: Well our involvement even with the LUG's it to try and advocate for Ubuntu
<pleia2> bkerensa: it was really cool to see all the blog posts that came out of the combined debian-ubuntu event, very nice work with that :)
<czajkowski> nathwill: anyone can answer stuff
<czajkowski> we're asking the team
<bkerensa> so by being involved with other LUG's we are trying to push Ubuntu and get people involved with Ubuntu if they choose
<bkerensa> I think our recent event with Debian folks is a good example of how Ubuntu and Debian benefit from our work together
<cprofitt> bkerensa: can you share a bit with the group about the teams previous activity
<bkerensa> Surely
<czajkowski> as there is nothing there prior to April
<cprofitt> one of the issues we are always concerned with is sustained activity
<bkerensa> czajkowski: Well prior to April tgm4883 was lead more on a defacto basis because the founder of Ubuntu Oregon had been deployed in the Army
<bkerensa> I cannot speak in too much detail but by reviewing the mailing list and other mailing lists and in discussion with current and pass Oregon LoCo folks
<czajkowski> right
<bkerensa> I can see that regular meetings
<bkerensa> and events did occur
<bkerensa> however documentation was not up to par
<bkerensa> I know that Ubuntu Oregon has had a booth at every OSCON
<cprofitt> bkerensa: what about the future -- I see no events planned for the future on loco.ubuntu.com
<c_smith> We are actually in the planning phase of the 12.04 Release party, and have several other evens being planned, too.
<bkerensa> cprofitt: We are planning our Ubuntu 12.04 Release Party right now in fact I have an offer for sponsorship from PuppetLabs and am working with Dell for some other opps
<nathwill> we're trying to nail down final details on a talk at the local Yahoo! office in ~ 2 wks
<bkerensa> in March we will likely have another joint Ubuntu/Debian event
<bkerensa> Ubuntu Oregon will be at Community Leadership Summit, Linux Fest NW and OSCON
<cprofitt> does Oregon also use loco.ubuntu.com to schedule on-line meetings?
<bkerensa> all of those events will be coming in the next few months
<czajkowski> rght so you guys seem to attend a lot of conferences, what do you do at ground level
<czajkowski> looking for team reports ?
<bkerensa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OregonTeam/TeamReports
<bkerensa> Well c_smith has been hosting Ubuntu Hours in Salem
<bkerensa> and we hope to have some Ubuntu Hours on a regular basis here in Portland
<bkerensa> I know that various members do provide support in #ubuntu from time to time and also provide support and advocate in their own towns and cities
<c_smith> I can vouch that I try and help out on #ubuntu
<TRAVISg> I have done installs for friends and co-workers
<bkerensa> Also
<bkerensa> I'm pushing an initiative to start distributing more CD's
<bkerensa> as of right now I have been buying CD's out of pocket and distributing them but I'm hoping we might have a coordinated effort going forward to get more CD's out since they are in demand
<cprofitt> bkerensa: you say a lot of 'I'... how much is the 'we' involved
<nathwill> i support a couple of local ubuntu users, while trying to get them to join in on ubuntu-or events.
<jhmextern> working in newport oregon trying to develop a group too
<czajkowski> bkerensa: cool, many teams even approved teams like france get out many cds theyt produce themselves
<bkerensa> cprofitt: c_smith holds Ubuntu Hours in Salem, jhmextern is working to get Ubuntu Hours and a group together in Newport and Nathwill on his own got us a talk at Yahoo
<c_smith> JVLB and I have been working with bkerensa to try to get an event (which I already mention) going to try and educate people about Ubuntu in the Salem/Keizer area.
<TRAVISg> I offer support to users I have helped switch over here in Portland
<bkerensa> all of that they do on their own.... Our team are self starters
<jvlb> Since 2006 I've helped about a dozen people switch to Kubuntu from Windows.
<TRAVISg> Also have got the chance to talk to many folks about Ubuntu since sporting the 11.10 Shirt from our last release party
<cprofitt> bkerensa: that is a good thing... my team recently lost some folks to relocation and I need to get more folks invovled... the weight of the team is already pretty heavy
<cprofitt> teams become stronger as they get more people involved.
<bkerensa> cprofitt: It is always a concern that our LoCo could become dormant again but honestly I dont see that happening we have been more sustainable ever since I took lead and I'm working with nathwill on forming a council so that going forward there is sustainability in our leadership
<nathwill> we're doing a lot of work towards increasing interest in membership atm. the yahoo! talk is entirely about exposing a new group of users to foss/ubuntu
<c_smith> brb
<bkerensa> Notably we have quite a good partcipation on IRC
<cprofitt> bkerensa: I understand that... I went through the same with New York
<bkerensa> in comparison to other approved states
<bkerensa> our events are big
<cprofitt> When we were approved we had to show 12 months of sustained activity
<cprofitt> bkerensa: are they big due to the loco or because they are pre-established events?
<c_smith> back
<czajkowski> bkerensa: my concern is I only ever see you and the application is you, team reports you, blogs you etc
<bkerensa> they are big because of the LoCo
 * kees raises his hand 15 min late ;)
<bkerensa> Our release parties have very nice turnouts
<bkerensa> atleast that is my opinion
<cprofitt> bkerensa: I understand
<cprofitt> I just wanted to make sure you were not countin oscon or something like that as a big event
<slangasek> the local jam certainly wasn't a pre-established event
<bkerensa> czajkowski: That is why I want to see a council going forward
<jhmextern> distance plays a huge part, Oregon is a big state.
<TRAVISg> I can say that the support and equipping I have gotten through the team has been invaluable in my being able to spread the word about FOSS/Ubuntu
<bkerensa> czajkowski: c_smith actually does our website and blog and facebook
<czajkowski> bkerensa: a council isnt an answer I'm afraid
<c_smith> when I'm not busy running errands. :P
<bkerensa> czajkowski: Our team reports also reflect blog posts from kees and slangasek who are loco members
<nathwill> cprofitt, it should be noted that the team is delegating a lot of activity to people with an inclination. (e.g. wiki maintenance, mailing list administration, etc). bkerensa's not stuck shouldering everything.
<czajkowski> bkerensa: unless you're a massive loco team like france or italy or brazil there is no need for a council
<cprofitt> bkerensa: would you be worried about sustaining the activity over the next six months?
<cprofitt> I would agree with czajkowski - New York was almost destroyed by over complicated unecessary structure
<bkerensa> cprofitt: I do not think we would have a problem sustaining over the next six months
<cprofitt> bkerensa: do you think your team would put the effort in regardless of approval status?
<bkerensa> cprofitt: Yes... We don't exist because we seek approval we exist as a LoCo because we use Ubuntu and enjoy advocating for Ubuntu and FOSS
<TRAVISg> True
<jhmextern> nods in agreement
<czajkowski> ok we're ready to vote
<cprofitt> excellent answer... and the one I had to give when I was with New York
<c_smith> I'll vouch for that view.
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the approval of Oregon loco
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the approval of Oregon loco
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cprofitt> New York was turned down three times... and we continued on!
<c_smith> NY, eh?
<czajkowski> -1 I'd like to see you come back in 6-8 months there just isn't enough for me at present prior to 9 months ago
<meetingology> -1 I'd like to see you come back in 6-8 months there just isn't enough for me at present prior to 9 months ago received from czajkowski
<cprofitt> +0 I think the team has done excellent work, but I would like to see more sustained activity before granting approved status. I am encouraged by the strong amount of activity shown in the last six months and the number of people who made the meeting in the middle of their workday.
<meetingology> +0 I think the team has done excellent work, but I would like to see more sustained activity before granting approved status. I am encouraged by the strong amount of activity shown in the last six months and the number of people who made the meeting in the middle of their workday. received from cprofitt
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: xdatap1
<xdatap1> -1 I would like to see you again in 6 months. You're doing a great job but the history is still short, so keep up the good work
<meetingology> -1 I would like to see you again in 6 months. You're doing a great job but the history is still short, so keep up the good work received from xdatap1
<SergioMeneses> +0 have done a great work but they need a little more!
<meetingology> +0 have done a great work but they need a little more! received from SergioMeneses
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the approval of Oregon loco
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:2 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion denied
<czajkowski> hopefully in a few more months there will be more things to see and we can look again
<czajkowski> thank you all for coming
<nathwill> thanks for your time :)
<TRAVISg> Yup gotta run back to work
<c_smith> thanks for at least looking into it.
<jhmextern> thank you
<TRAVISg> Thanks for your time and consideration
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: cprofitt xdatap1 can one of you update the team report and wiki with mins of the meeting
<TRAVISg> We will knock your socks off in a few months
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, I can do it
<czajkowski> #action SergioMeneses update the wiki and team report
<meetingology> ACTION: SergioMeneses update the wiki and team report
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 17 20:56:40 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-17-20.04.moin.txt
<czajkowski> sweet
<czajkowski> thanks folks
<cprofitt> thanks everyone!
<xdatap1> thanks everyone, see you soon!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-18
<inkernod> Alguien que hable espaÃ±ol?
<head_victim> !es | inetpro
<ubottu> inetpro: En la mayorÃ­a de canales de Ubuntu se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol o charlar entra en el canal #ubuntu-es. Escribe "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y dale a enter.
<head_victim> !es | inkernod
<ubottu> inkernod: En la mayorÃ­a de canales de Ubuntu se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol o charlar entra en el canal #ubuntu-es. Escribe "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y dale a enter.
<head_victim> sorry inetpro, tab complete failed :/
<inkernod> tnks
<inetpro> head_victim: np
<inkernod> ubottu: hi
<inkernod> have you ever used a bt phone in ubuntu for thetering
<head_victim> inkernod: ubottu is a bot that I used to provide you with a link to a spanish speaking channel (Unfortunately I only speak english)
<Myrtti> ubuntu support is at #ubuntu
<Myrtti> support in spanish at #ubuntu-es
<inkernod> ok
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 18 16:04:15 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<ev> hi
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson brry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek)
<ev> come on, big money big money, no whammy
<slangasek> bdmurray cjwatson doko ev jodh slangasek stgraber barry
<ev> damn
<ogra_> is bby barry with a cold ?
<slangasek> hmm, where did barry's a go
<ogra_> err brry i meant indeed :)
<barry> there's an off-color joke in there somewhere
<slangasek> anyway
<bdmurray> holiday on Monday
<bdmurray> discovered and issue with apport where bugpatterns weren't being checked
<bdmurray> updated apport package hook for linux not to ask re kerneloops.org
<bdmurray> uploaded an enabled version of kerneloops for precise
<bdmurray> bug triage of ubuntu-installer bug reports I got subscribed to
<bdmurray> debugged a cbd issue with bjf
<bdmurray> reported bug 917903 regarding apport and gz report items
<bdmurray> investigation into aptdaemon bug 855394
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917903 in apport (Ubuntu) "ubuntu general hook doesn't know how to read .gz files" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917903
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 855394 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Precise) "update-manager crashed with AptDaemonError in _convert_dbus_exception(): org.debian.apt: Could not cancel transaction" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855394
<bdmurray> updated update-manager apport hook to include recent Aptdaemon messages from syslog
<bdmurray> update firefox-lp-improvements to fix bug 917461
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917461 in Launchpad Greasemonkey Scripts "stock replies do not work in Firefox" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917461
<bdmurray> done
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> Added timestamps to live filesystem builds.  Did a bit of hopeful optimisation of update-initramfs calls but it unfortunately didn't save much.
<cjwatson> Spruced up ubuntu-archive-tools a bit, applied GPLv3 to unlicensed files, and did some preliminary modernisation in preparation for Python 3.
<cjwatson> Ported germinate to Python 3, by way of practice.
<cjwatson> Helped out with lazr.uri port to Python 3.  Ported wadllib.
<cjwatson> Trying to drain the python-debian Python 3 swamp:
<cjwatson>  * Packaged six.
<cjwatson>  * Filed Debian #656288 in python3-apt to deal with non-UTF-8 tag files.
<ubottu> Debian bug 656288 in python3-apt "python3-apt: difficulties with non-UTF-8-encoded TagFiles" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/656288
<cjwatson>  * Filed Python #13815 to make it easier to get Unicode data out of tarfile.
<slangasek> ev: and you're next since doko is having gateway problems
<cjwatson>  * Slogged through huge numbers of bytes/str fiddling and general confusion.  Still in progress.
<cjwatson> Discussed Ubuntu Studio live DVD structure with Scott.  I think I now have a clear enough idea of what they need to be able to implement it pretty quickly.
<cjwatson> ..
<ev> - Fighting apport-retrace. Was missing gdb as apport-retrace didn't have a
<ev>   depencency on it as the traceback is normally extracted client-side
<ev>   (add_gdb_info). It may still be advantageous to do that work on the client,
<ev>   but that (10s) plus adding the needed package information (add_package_info)
<ev>   to the report (30s) takes no small amount of time.
<ev> - Updating RT 48667 with the latest requirements and my notes from talking to
<ev>   James on November 30th.
<ev> - Including a SHA-512 hash of the system UUID in uploaded reports and core
<ev>   dumps.
<ev> - Meeting with Gerry to discuss the downloads marketing campaign and the crash
<ev>   database.
<ev> - Privilege dropping in whoopsie.
<ev> - Dealing with DBus/ConsoleKit fallout from dropping privileges (at_console is
<ev>   set for NetworkManager).
<ev> - Reply to Christian and Nick on slideshow questions.
<ev> - Talked through the crash UI with Matthew
<ev>   (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker).
<ev>   - It looks like we'll need a "ignore future crashes" checkbox, after all.
<ev>     He's working on the right UI for this now.
<ev>   - We don't need a confidentiality warning like apport currently has, as
<ev>     the information collected is not being shared with the general public like
<ev>     existing reports are.
<ev>   - Matthew will work on the administrator UI, for disabling crash and metrics
<ev>     reporting.
<ev>   - I will run these modifications to apport by pitti, then implement.
<ev> - Including the system UUID with the upload of the report and the core dump.
<ev> - Figuring out how to handle permissions around /var/crash, now that we drop
<ev>   privileges.
<ev> - Fixed a really nasty memory corruption bug that ate up a few hours.
<ev> - Added tests for get_system_uuid and get_crash_db_url
<ev> - Worked with pitti to get crash files written with 0640, so that the daemon
<ev>   can read them as a regular user.
<ev> - Added a test for hex_to_char.
<ev> - Move to GNetworkMonitor from NetworkManager for the network connectivity
<ev>   check. This means no more needing a console (NM uses at_console), and
<ev>   actually having a "can we reach the crash server" condition.
<ev> - Ensure that /var/crash is group owned by whoopsie and is chmod g+s.
<ev> - Isolate whoopsie into its own mount namespace, RO bind mount / and RW bind
<ev>   mount /var/crash into /var/tmp/whoopsie. Chroot, then drop all privileges and
<ev>   capabilities but CAP_FOWNER, so that now we can be a regular user who has
<ev>   the sole added ability of being able to delete files in /var/crash (which is
<ev>   +t).
<ev>   - The rationale for this is that users need to be able to drop 0-byte
<ev>     .upload files in /var/crash to notify the daemon that they want the crash
<ev>     uploaded.  The daemon then needs to be able to delete these.
<ev> (done)
 * doko is joining from the ac100
<slangasek> doko: you're up then, if you're ready to report :)
<jodh> Working on getting lp:upstart building daily. Started to write a python
<jodh> script to autogenerate a comprehensive set of test Upstart jobs (and
<jodh> hopefully also to autogen a script to check the results). Working to
<jodh> resolve failing unit tests for bug 912558.
<jodh> â¨
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912558 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "log.c Assert failed - err=>number == EIO" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912558
<doko> may I skip? no summary on this host
<slangasek> doko: yeah - send by email later?
<doko> will do
<stgraber> jodh: let me know if you need any help with the daily builds, I have that setup for quite a few projects
<barry> doko: please take a look at debian bug 655793 (forwarded from #debian-python)
<ubottu> Debian bug 655793 in pyzmq "pyzmq: FTBFS: test_queue (zmq.tests.test_monqueue.TestMonitoredQueue) ... Assertion failed: !inpipe && !outpipe (pair.cpp:49)" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/655793
<jodh> stgraber: thanks!
<doko> barry: seen, maybe some issues with the branch version
<barry> doko: we thought, maybe some of the compiler flag changes in -3 perhaps?
<barry> doko: check with jtaylor
<doko> barry, I get same test results with and without lto
<slangasek>  * management sprint + travel back, Sat-Tue
<slangasek>  * uploaded command-not-found to fix the 'sudo' group name
<slangasek>  * helped with the new queue last week, unity 5.0 ftw
<slangasek>  * uploaded crda, needed some tweaks for multiarch to enable a fixed apt upload
<barry> doko: ah
<slangasek>  * more work on hiring for our openings
<slangasek> (done)
<stgraber> - Testing tracker
<stgraber>  - Production instance has been updated
<stgraber>  - Bugfix: Handle case where we don't have any build in the build list
<stgraber>  - Add report to look for results for a given bug number
<stgraber>  - Admin: Add a field to set the comment we'll add to bugs
<stgraber>  - Add lp-integration script to the branch with needed changes for new tracker + lucid
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - dnsmasq and IPv6 privacy extensions are now turned on by default for everyone (thanks to cyphermox!)
<stgraber>  - Merged ifupdown and went through its buglist which is now a lot shorter
<stgraber>  - Prepared an SRU for bug 876829 and talked with upstream about fixing ifdown when dealing with labels
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>  - Expecting another ifupdown upload this afternoon with the cherry-picked commit and upload of the Oneiric SRU
<stgraber>  - One more fix to bridge-utils to deal with VLANs
<stgraber>  - Some discussions on resolvconf and its interaction with NM's dnsmasq and libvirt
<stgraber> - ARB
<stgraber>  - Got unity-lens-askubuntu into Ubuntu 11.10 extras
<stgraber>  - Did the same with unity-lens-utilities (published on Monday evening)
<stgraber>  - Did some queue review/cleanup, discussed about improving MyApps and the ARB workflow to deal with the current backlog
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Started working on a fixed util-linux using Serge's patch
<stgraber> - TPM
<stgraber>  - Uploaded current trousers to my experimental PPA (build dependency for current tpm-tools)
<stgraber>  - Started fighting with a buggy upstream tarball of tpm-tools until they eventually released a working one (a few hours ago)
<stgraber>  - Got both of them built but still not quite working, now trying to also go with the latest opencryptoki, then rebuild tpm-tools using it.
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Uploaded bugfix/translation update of Arkose to Precise and backported in the PPA
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Cherry-pick ifupdown's last label fix to Precise and include in the SRU for Oneiric
<stgraber>  - Test the new tpm stack from the PPA
<stgraber>  - Some more bugfixes for the ISO tracker
<stgraber>  - Continue bug review on vlan, ifenslave-2.6, bridge-utils and resolvconf to see if I missed anything with the recent fixes
<stgraber> (and switched from empathy to using bitlbee, now managing everything through irssi in a screen session, no more empathy/telepathy crashes or issues syncing my status across protocols!)
<stgraber> (done)
<barry> fixed the lintian warnings in dbus-python and got all the binary packages looking good (with help from cjwatson...thanks!).  still waiting in new queue.  build retries a few times to get success on arm* and powerpc, but now all is green.  currently working on feedparser - 5.1 (new upstream) supports it, but we have 5.0.1, upstream tarball is missing some data files and has test failures when python-chardet is installed, so reporting
<barry> those upstream and working around them in the packaging; should hopefully be ready later today.  met w/launchpad guys to helped out with general packaging questions.  done.
<slangasek> stgraber: how's bitlbee's VoIP integration? ;)
<slangasek> any other questions on statuses?
<stgraber> slangasek: hehe, that's the only bit where I'm keeping empathy (and it actually works great for that!). I just have my VOIP account, Canonical VC account and the "people nearby" account in empathy now, everything moved to my IRC server
<cjwatson> I would look at dbus-python in NEW but the NEW queue has been going in the wrong direction for me all day
<stgraber> *everything else
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: what's hot in the insect world?
<barry> cjwatson: ouch ;}
<bdmurray> I've run across a couple of "hot" bugs
<bdmurray> bug 916299 seems like it would be important
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916299 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity uses grub-efi instead of grub-pc on non-GPT disk" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916299
<bdmurray> additionally does anybody know what this Boot-Info-Script is?
<cjwatson> uh
<cjwatson> EFI is not intrinsically tied to GPT
<cjwatson> I mean not in both directions
<cjwatson> bdmurray: http://bootinfoscript.sourceforge.net/
 * cjwatson marks incomplete
<bdmurray> hmm, hadn't seen that before thanks
<bdmurray> then bug 916209 regarding recovery mode and wubi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916209 in lupin (Ubuntu) "Recovery mode incorrect on wubi installs" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916209
 * cjwatson looks, thought I fixed that ...
<cjwatson> ah, ok, right, I'll deal with that thanks
<bdmurray> that's about it then
<slangasek> bdmurray: cool, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] burndown charts
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: burndown charts
<slangasek> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-foundations.html
 * barry hides
<slangasek> there was some very good progress last week during the rally
<slangasek> and the workitems are now more accurate, which is a good thing even though it doesn't help move the graph in the right direction ;)
<cjwatson> I'm happy to keep helping out with py3, if that's wanted - not much else on my list is desperately urgent
<slangasek> and in fact, if we were to discount the workitems on our blueprints belonging to non-foundations people, we'd be below the trendline... so we'll blame them if anyone asks :P
<barry> cjwatson: great!
<slangasek> all the same, rickspencer3 wants us to be realistic about what work we're going to get done and postpone things we aren't, so that other teams know what they can rely on from us this cycle
<slangasek> so if there's anything you think we should postpone, talk to me
<slangasek> and if you don't think there's anything you should postpone, I'll talk to you ;D
<stgraber> yeah, looking at it, a sixth of my work items are non-Canonical/Foundations stuff (Edubuntu website, ubiquity plugin, ...). Though I actually need to spend a weekend or so going through these :)
<slangasek> right, it doesn't help the graph that we have overachievers taking on non-Canonical blueprints :)
<barry> slangasek: i want to push on as much as possible this month, and then postpone whatever's left when i switch to stable+1
<slangasek> barry: I think that's reasonable, yes
<slangasek> particularly since most of those new workitems for python3 should be on the small end
<slangasek> and if cjwatson can help with them too, that's all to the good
<barry> yep.  of course, the biggest risk is that we don't know what we don't know
<slangasek> usually :)
<barry> :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else on your minds?
<slangasek> reminder that I'm off this Friday, swapping for the bank holiday here
<slangasek> barry: did you decide what day you're swapping to?
<slangasek> or is that "later" :)
<ScottK> python3-defaults is now sync'ed from Debian.
<barry> slangasek: not yet
<slangasek> ScottK: \o/
<barry> ScottK: thanks!
<ScottK> It's much easier than with python due to barry's upstream work on various PEP's to improve multi-version support.
<slangasek> barry++
<ScottK> BTW, just uploaded ipy with python3 support to Debian ... So we're making progress.
<slangasek> good to know
<cjwatson> I think I'll use it a lot more once we have -debian and -launchpadlib ported.  Pretty much all the archive tools could be python3 then.
<barry> nice.  i'll submit feedparser to debian when it's ready
<barry> cjwatson: wow, that would be fantastic
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 18 16:44:12 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-18-16.04.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<stgraber> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<ev> thanks
<balloons> hello everyone
<Scott2> Hi
<albrigha> hello
<gema> o/
<mmrazik> hi
<balloons> let's let the fun begin
<balloons> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 18 17:00:09 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<alourie> o/
<phillw> o/
<astraljava> o/
<balloons> so I see we have at least a few folks.. everyone ready?
<alourie> yep
<retoaded> and me too
<ScottK> \o
<balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<nuclearbob> howdy
<balloons> ok, so there were a couple previous actions, one of which was mine :-)
<alourie> and one was mine :-)
<balloons> kubuntu and ubuntu studio are on the agenda now, so that should be good going forward
<balloons> alourie, how did the wiki migration go?
<alourie> balloons: it went fine
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<alourie> since about couple of hours we have a new wiki page
<alourie> so everyone is invited to provide a feedback
<balloons> can you let us know how you did it? I know we were wondering if it was possible to copy, etc...
<alourie> I actually like this layout
<alourie> balloons: ah
<alourie> well, considering that you already merged a hefty part of it, it went quite fast
<alourie> I just copied over relevant parts
<albrigha> alourie: to be clear, is this the page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<alourie> albrigha: yes
<alourie> there are still a lot of digging required for the nested stuff, I'm on it
<alourie> but it'll take some time, as there's a /lot/ of stuff
<alourie> ...
<albrigha> I was going to ask about that..it seemed like AutomatedTesting has a lot of info and is rather hard to get to. but sounds like you are already looking at it :)
<alourie> albrigha: yes, I am
<alourie> I am looking into all things /QA wiki/, so if anyone has ideas/suggestions/questions, fire them up to me
<balloons> yes, I agree.. General page cleanup is next and the more eyes on it the better
<gema> alourie: link AutomatedTesting in a visible place
<gema> I am taking care of linking all the important new stuff we do for automation there
<gema> thanks !
<gema> ..
<alourie> gema: there's an "Actions" link on the main page, that leads to all activities
<alourie> including Automation
<alourie> would you like Automation to be special and have a separate link on the main page?
<gema> I don't find the Actions link
<albrigha> I don't see it either
<balloons> i see activities
<alourie> sorry
<balloons> and it's there.. it's not a prominent link though on the main page
<alourie> I meant Activities
<gema> that may be it, yep, it needs to be on the main page not just under activities
<gema> imo
 * balloons likes the beaker graphic with the cd in it
<alourie> balloons: for ISO testing? :-)
<gema> maybe a bullet point under What kinds of things does the Ubuntu QA Team do or so
<gema> ..
<alourie> gema: maybe we could bulletlist activities alltogether?
<gema> alourie: indeed
<alourie> great
<balloons> do we want aactivities on the top of the page next to roadmap, schedule
<alourie> balloons: I'm not sure
<albrigha> I say so..it seems like it's pretty important..
<alourie> testing is not the only thing we do
<gema> I think we should discuss this on the list
<gema> and move on
<gema> or else we won't get through :)
<balloons> ok, so no actions right now
<alourie> +1
<alourie> balloons: put this on my actions list
<balloons> [ACTION] alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki, based upon list discussion
<meetingology> ACTION: alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki, based upon list discussion
<alourie> thanks
<balloons> let's move on then
<alourie> great
<alourie> thanks for the feedback!
<balloons> [TOPIC] Blueprints Updates and Community Tasks
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprints Updates and Community Tasks
<balloons> alourie, your welcome.. at a glance the wiki is already nicer
<alourie> yep
<balloons> ok, does anyone have any updates on tasks to sharE?
<balloons> let's start with you alourie
<alourie> ahm
<alourie> ok
<balloons> :-)
<alourie> I think we need to get moving with test cases rework. I have no updates yes, but I intend to get started with rewriting. gema - is there any update on the meeting with Mozilla folks?
<gema> alourie: on my todo list
<gema> alourie: I need to talk to them this week
<gema> balloons: give me an action
<balloons> alourie, I also wanted to discuss the rework.
<alourie> oh, great
<alourie> balloons: go ahead
<balloons> [ACTION] gema discuss case conductor with mozilla folks and provide update
<meetingology> ACTION: gema discuss case conductor with mozilla folks and provide update
 * txomon|nqas has arrived
<balloons> sure. So I wanted to make sure I understood the process for how the test cases were being reworked
<balloons> txomon|nqas, welcome :-)
<alourie> balloons: ok
<balloons> let me find my steps..
<alourie> so we have decided to rewrite them, mainly because wiki doesn't seem to be a good management tool
<balloons> yes.. in a nutshell, essentially using the gdoc to rewrite then place back in the wiki
<gema> no, we have decided to rewrite them because they were wrong
<gema> and we are moving to case conductor because the wiki is not a good management tool :)
<njin> they where old
<gema> njin: +1
<balloons> yes gema is correct there
<alourie> rewriting allows us to review them, fix ambiguities, update the content to a more relevant one, and remove the obsolete ones
<alourie> because many of them are not relevant anymore
<alourie> and just not clear enough
<balloons> so I'm up to speed on that now :-) So the next step is to get some traction going on re-writing them, reviewing them, and getting them back into the wiki
<njin> alourie,exact
<alourie> balloons: wiki, for now
<alourie> and CC later on (or any other system of choice)
 * gema nods
<balloons> +1
<alourie> balloons: so action here would be getting on with it :-)
<balloons> yes, I will take an action to solicit some folks on the list and get some cases written for next week
<gema> balloons: maybe you could make it a bit easier for people by making sure we have a list of test cases that haven't been worked on yet available
<alourie> gema: +!
<alourie> that's +!
<alourie> +1
<gema> because now that we've started the whole thing got a bit messy x)
<balloons> I was going to focus on an app or two at a time -- what do you think?
<gema> sounds good to me
<alourie> gema, balloons: I recommend going for ISO testing actually
<gema> alourie: indeed, so that we are ready for alpha 2
<alourie> say, begin with simple desktop 386
<alourie> and continue from there
<alourie> or it is x64 now?
<balloons> did we go default 64-bit?
<alourie> I don't know
<gema> doesn't matter, none of them are simple by any stretch of imagination, if we are talking installs
<alourie> yea
<alourie> and they would be quite similar
<alourie> in terms of test cases
<njin> sure
<alourie> balloons: just pick one :-)
<balloons> sure, so I will take an action to review what's out there for i386 and x64
<alourie> yep
<balloons> and send to the list asking for help on rewrites
<hggdh> all archs are important -- and we will need people to work on PPC, ARM, etc
<alourie> hggdh: true, but we need to start somewhere
<balloons> [ACTION] balloons to review test cases for i386,x64 and coordinate updates
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to review test cases for i386,x64 and coordinate updates
<balloons> hggdh, I agree, and as long as we get one arch done we can model the rest after it
<hggdh> indeed
<jibel> balloons, if you start with intel you'll need to cover mac too
<balloons> mac as in efi boot?
<balloons> or as in ppc?
<hggdh> mac intel
<jibel> yes efi. amd64
<gema> but the test cases are similar, aren't they?
<gema> are we discussing test cases or execution?
<jibel> if you're talking about test case there should be no difference between intel archs
<gema> that's what I thought, we were just talking test cases, then balloons will need to move to the execution phase
<gema> and help coordinate that
<gema> with you, probably, jibel
<alourie> I still say we pick one, handle its test cases, see next
<gema> alourie: +1
<balloons> ok, so yes test cases first
<balloons> jibel can help coordinate execution
<balloons> that's probably an discussion point for next week
<balloons> make sure we followup
<balloons> ok, let's move on
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Derivative Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Derivative Updates
<balloons> Anyone from kubuntu on?
 * alourie is out for few minutes
<ScottK> Sure.
<ScottK> Although Kubuntu isn't really a derivative.
<balloons> hello ScottK
<ScottK> As I mentioned last week, we've got KDE SC 4.7.4 in oneiric-proposed for testing.
<balloons> I never know what to call them.. spins, etc.. can someone give me the right term?
<ScottK> It's the last planned 4.7.x update.
<balloons> will 4.8 be in precise?
<ScottK> I prefer flavors or siblings.
<ScottK> Yes.
<ScottK> It's a 4.8 rc now and 4.8 final due out soon.
<ScottK> IMO something like Mint is a derivative.
<balloons> ScottK, noted. I'll use flavors
<ScottK> Thanks.
<jibel> balloons, flavors is good as per http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/derivatives
<balloons> jibel, perfect thank you
<balloons> how about lubuntu? phillw?
<phillw> fairly quiet, still working on one bug. the other bug that we shared with xubuntu re:language being altered when hitting return seems resolved
<ScottK> BTW, the new multitouch stack is about to land on precise and if someone has appropriate hardware it'd be great to get some testing with Qt apps.  None of the Kubuntu developers have hardware.
<balloons> ScottK, ohh really? I've been waiting for it to land to try out with my chromebook which has a multitouch pad
<phillw> but my daily buold from yesterday has just failed after install.
<ScottK> balloons: I understand the qt4-x11 build on armel is the last thing they are waiting for.
<ScottK> It takes about a day and a half to build.
<balloons> phillw, do you know why it failed yet?
<ScottK> I think this needs a touch screen though.
<phillw> balloons: no, It just sent my VM crazy when I 1st launched it. I've only just put it on so need to have a dig around.
 * alourie I must leave now, sorry, will read logs later
 * alourie thanks balloons for the chairing :-)
<balloons> goodbye alourie!
<balloons> phillw, ScottK thanks for the updates
<balloons> How about xubuntu?
<gema> charlie-tca doesn't seem to be here
<balloons> yep
<balloons> astraljava, anything on ubuntu studio?
<njin> unity-greeter[1589] trap int3 ip:7fec4fbe4b3b sp:7fff55e32490 error:0
<astraljava> Nothing much. We're picking up speed in getting our first ever live-dvd developed soon-ish.
<njin> phillw:^^
<astraljava> Other than that, it's been slow.
<astraljava> ..
<balloons> just curious, how much kernel testing does your team undertake?
<njin> Xubuntu today install like a charm
<astraljava> Somewhat, as we're going to include the -low-latency kernel.
<njin> in my test
<astraljava> But it hasn't reached the repositories yet.
<astraljava> ..
<phillw> njin: I'll wait for todays build. Mine is dated 17th.
<njin> I too
 * txomon|nqas would like to ask a question at the end
<njin> also the build useed to report the bug is 17
<balloons> ok great.. thank astraljava
<balloons> One more update njin and txomon|nqas  :-)
<balloons> highvoltage, anything from edubuntu?
<balloons> or anyone else care to comment on edubuntu? stgraber? I know they said they were not usually around
<balloons> we'll move on then
<highvoltage> hey balloons
<highvoltage> ah sorry I forgot about this meeting
<balloons> hello :-)
<balloons> no worries -- anything to share?
<highvoltage> nothing that I have prepared now, but I'll give an update next time!
<balloons> sounds great
<highvoltage> how often does this meeting occur?
<txomon|nqas> weekly
<balloons> every weds at 1700 utc
<highvoltage> ok
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other Discussions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Discussions
<balloons> ok, lastly anything from the list or otherwise anyone wants to bring up
<balloons> fire away njin
<balloons> txomon|nqas, how about your question?
<njin> just that today kubuntu and Xubuntu installs ok in every modality
<njin> on real hardware
<txomon|nqas> I have been thinking about this for a large time. I have several computers that I don't use, and that would like to use for testing, is there any app the qa has to make automated installs?
<txomon|nqas> I mean, automatically running tests, and sending reports
<balloons> njin: sweet!
<gema> txomon|nqas: not yet
<txomon|nqas> have been looking at the Orchestra project, but that is mainly focused on server deployment
<balloons> gema, what work would need to be done to enable such things?
<gema> balloons: we are working on a project that will allow people to do this at home
<gema> balloons: but we are barely gathering requirements at the moment
<txomon|nqas> gema: good to know.
<balloons> gotcha
<gema> balloons: having an orchestra server would be good for the time being
<gema> and I have been told it is very easy to use
<gema> but not everyone will be up for it
 * txomon|nqas tryed orchestra...
<gema> txomon|nqas: and?
<txomon|nqas> puf, that was difficult to use in a home enviroment. It was very focussed on servers, and
<ScottK> This week I'm expecting we'll get postfix 2.8.7 into precise and then there will be post-release updates for natty and oneiric that need testing.
<txomon|nqas> there were lots of things not quite modularized
<gema> txomon|nqas: agreed
<txomon|nqas> I mean, the orchestra-provisioning
<balloons> txomon|nqas, any other thoughts on tools? certainly I would encourage you to see what you could come up with to do the automated testing, even if there wasn't a good way (yet) to feedback
<txomon|nqas> which is what I mainly wanted, is quite strange to my eyes (alone at least)
<txomon|nqas> balloons: I have been using apt-cacher-ng to cache, instead of squid
<txomon|nqas> and speeds up quite a lot installations
<txomon|nqas> easy to configure (doesn't need btw)
<balloons> and your mainly looking at iso installing or ?
<txomon|nqas> balloons: I was intending to create automatic installation systems, with kickstart files
<hggdh> ScottK: do we have tests available for postfix, or is it ad-hoc?
 * hggdh wonders if the meeting lost focus
<balloons> just dual convo's :-)
<gema> hggdh: +1 :D
<ScottK> hggdh: I think it's ad hoc, but postfix upstream is one of the most careful and reliable there is.
<balloons> txomon|nqas, i would say keep us informed of your work and progress.. Gema as you can use feedback on requirements gathering let's plan to share and make sure txomon|nqas sees it
<hggdh> ScottK: k
<gema> balloons: ok
<txomon|nqas> I would be quite interested on that
<txomon|nqas> nothing more on my side
<balloons> scottk?
<txomon|nqas> will discuss this in #ubuntu-testing
<ScottK> No.  Nothing more.
<balloons> alright -- our time has come to an end then.. great meeting everyone. thanks for coming
<nuclearbob> thanks for chairing
<gema> thanks for chairing!
<bil21al> ok yw
<balloons> and for dealing with me as the chair ;-) See you all next week
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 18 17:54:14 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-18-17.00.moin.txt
<hggdh> ScottK: I will keep an eye for it
<phillw> balloons: thnks for chairing
<njin> ballons, thanks
<jibel> thanks for chairing balloons
<bdmurray> Time for the bug squad meeting
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 18 18:02:55 2012 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdmurray> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<bdmurray> ACTION: bdmurray to perform SRU of fix for bug 904527 for Oneiric
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904527 in rhythmbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "apport package hook no longer installed" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904527
<bdmurray> Pedro had asked that I upload a fix for Oneiric for that
<bdmurray> which I've done but it could use verification
<bdmurray> Its really simple ;-) just make sure /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/source_rhythmbox.py exists!
<bdmurray> So if anybody still running Oneiric could check that out it'd be much appreciated
<bdmurray> moving on
<Ursinha> (I can do that)
<bdmurray> Ursinha: that'd be great!
<Ursinha> :)
<bdmurray> #action Ursinha to perform SRU verification of bug 904527
<meetingology> ACTION: Ursinha to perform SRU verification of bug 904527
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904527 in rhythmbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "apport package hook no longer installed" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904527
<bdmurray> #topic Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> Ursinha: do you have anything for us?
<Ursinha> bdmurray, not really no
<bdmurray> Ursinha: oh with regards to that openoffice package install failure bug
<bdmurray> come to find out apport wasn't checking bug patterns in precise
<bdmurray> this is fixed now
<Ursinha> oh, argh and cool :)
<Ursinha> thanks for fixing the world, bdmurray :)
<bdmurray> In all fairness pitti fixed it, I just found it. ;-)
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: Do you have anything to report?
<Ursinha> which is fairly important too ;)
<jsalisbury> Just a heads up, there are a bunch of duplicates coming in for bug 917962
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917962 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG: scheduling while atomic: swapper/3/0/0x10000100" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917962
<jsalisbury> This bug seems to have only started today.  I'm in the process of bisecting to find what caused the regression.
<bdmurray> I wouldn't say its only started today, we might now just be seeing it since I turned on kerneloops
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, ahh, yes, correct
<Ursinha> bdmurray, you turned on kerneloops again?
<bdmurray> Ursinha: yes, I disabled the question regarding uploading it to kerneloops.org and enabled kerneloops again
<Ursinha> great :)
 * Ursinha takes notes
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, it's doing its job ;-)
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: yeah so it seems.  let me know if you need any help writing a bug pattern for that bug
<balloons> hehe, I feel like I should be afraid to update today...
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, will do.  I'll create the bug pattern once the root cause is identified.
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: why wait? duplicates will just keep coming in
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, That's the only major update I have.
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, Just need to have time later today.
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: okay, I wasn't sure if it was hardware specific or something
<bdmurray> So as previously mentioned I've turned on kerneloops now
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, no I don't believe so.  I should have the pattern done this afternoon.
<bdmurray> I also uploaded an updated update-manager apport package hook to include Aptdaemon messages from syslog
<bdmurray> And there will be a new version of firefox-lp-improvements shortly
<bdmurray> That'll fix bug 917461
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917461 in Launchpad Greasemonkey Scripts "stock replies do not work in Firefox" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917461
<bdmurray> #topic Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
<bdmurray> Are there any bugs that we need to be aware of or that need some love?
<bdmurray> okay that's good news I hope
<bdmurray> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<bdmurray> Speaking of SRU verifications
<bdmurray> There is a version of update-manager in oneiric proposed that could use some verification
<bdmurray> it fixes bug 880704
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880704 in update-manager (Ubuntu Oneiric) "On kubuntu, update-manager hook crashes with ImportError: No module named gconf in hookutils.py attach_gconf" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880704
<bdmurray> bug 873432 and bug 873424
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 873432 in update-manager (Ubuntu Oneiric) "check-new-release-gtk: Release Notes link/button doesn't send to a release notes page" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/873432
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 873424 in update-manager (Ubuntu Oneiric) "ask me later fails" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/873424
<bdmurray> I'm familiar with the bugs if anybody needs help verifying them
<bdmurray> Is there anything else to discuss?
<bdmurray> Well then, thanks everyone
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 18 18:26:01 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-18-18.02.moin.txt
<jsalisbury> thanks, Brian
<Ursinha> thanks bdmurray
<gilir> #startmeeting Lubuntu Team Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 18 20:05:45 2012 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<jmarsden|work> o/
 * gilir takes a seat
<phillw> 0/
<michaelrawson> o/
<MrChrisDruif> Sit down already ;-)
<Unit193> \o
<gilir> as ususal, aganda is here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<StephenSmally> 0/
<gilir> no action from previous meeting
<gilir> so we will go directly to team report :)
<gilir> #topic phillw - Weekly report - Update from QA meeting and team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  phillw - Weekly report - Update from QA meeting and team
<phillw> Sadly, one big bug has just surfaced.
<phillw> I've just gotten confirmation of it & it prevents a new install of lubuntu 12.04 from running. Does not affect xubuntu or kubuntu.
<gilir> phillw, you have a bug number ?
<phillw> gilir: I got confirmtaion about 3 minutes ago!
<phillw> gilir: I'll get it raised but the issue is unity-greeter[1589] trap int3 ip:7fec4fbe4b3b sp:7fff55e32490 error:0
<phillw> also the build useed to report the bug is 17
<phillw> same errors for me in 18 on real hardware
<gilir> phillw, hum, we should not have unity-greeter at all on lubuntu
<jmarsden|work> why would there be a "unity-greeter" ... exactly!
<phillw> that is what njin from the QA team saw when he tried to confirm it for me. It fails crazily on VM. He used a 'real' machine.
<gilir> phillw, I'll look at a daily ISO to check, maybe the last update of lighdm was not so nice :)
<phillw> okies, I got it 1st on 17th, we re-tried once 18th came out.
<amjjawad> that black wallpaper is so bad
<michaelrawson> lightdm won't run at all for me. I'm all for keeping lxdm for now.
<phillw> other than that, the new front wiki for the main QA team has been redisgned and will gradually filter through to update everything.
<amjjawad> for me, I got it after I updated and upgraded my system
<phillw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/
<gilir> michaelrawson, report a bug instead, we can't just switch this type of application when a bug arise
<phillw> The current push is to have everything needed for alpha 2 testing.
<phillw> end of QA report.
<michaelrawson> @gilir, I have. Sorry for chipping in :)
<meetingology> michaelrawson: Error: "gilir," is not a valid command.
<michaelrawson> gilir, I have. Sorry for chipping in :)
<gilir> thanks phillw
<gilir> #action gilir to check the unity-greeter / black wallpaper bug on ISO
<meetingology> ACTION: gilir to check the unity-greeter / black wallpaper bug on ISO
<gilir> #topic Unit193 - Weekly report - Update on IRC OP's team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Unit193 - Weekly report - Update on IRC OP's team
<Unit193> The IRC council call for OPs has been closed and we should hear from them later this week.
<Unit193> I'm also still looking for someone to do the OPs interview
<jmarsden|work> Unit193: Use a mirror?
<Unit193> jmarsden|work: Last one I tried broke :/
<gilir> Unit193, interview for the comm team ?
<Unit193> gilir: Yes sir!
<gilir> well, it's not mandatory :)
<gilir> let's see how the first ones go, maybe people will be interested after :)
<amjjawad> no one replied Jens except me and Phill :/
<gilir> amjjawad, I done it off list ;)
<Unit193> Yeah, there isn't much info as to the questions and sych
<amjjawad> gilir: aha :D
<phillw> amjjawad: also chris druif has replied.
<amjjawad> phillw: that's cool :)
<gilir> Unit193, anything else ?
<Unit193> That's all I can think of for now
<gilir> ok thanks Unit193 :)
<MrChrisDruif> YOU FORGOT ME?
<gilir> #topic MrChrisDruif - Weekly report - Update on Wiki / Docs team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  MrChrisDruif - Weekly report - Update on Wiki / Docs team
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, I follow the agenda order ;)
<MrChrisDruif> We've had a small issue regarding installing non-platform apps like ktouch on lubuntu
<MrChrisDruif> I asked if others could look up if others could find any info on the wiki regarding this issue. I've not had any response yet
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, is there a bug report somewhere (upstream or on launchpad) ?
<MrChrisDruif> And still haven't really started with the restructuring of the wiki and help pages
<MrChrisDruif> gilir; No, it was a question coming from amjjawad from the forum.
<amjjawad> MrChrisDruif:  we need to talk sometime soon regarding that :)
<amjjawad> I mean regarding the Wiki Pages and the re-organization of it
<MrChrisDruif> If it had performance issue. gilir; if you know anything about it, info would be appreciated
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, no sorry, never use it
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, then I'll send a query to the mailing-list to find info about it
<gilir> but maybe you could report a bug on upstream bug tracker, if you can't find information about this issue
<gilir> yes, maybe someone on the mailing know something
<MrChrisDruif> Other then that nothing to report
<amjjawad> and I'll try to do some search on the forum in case I can find something useful :)
<gilir> thanks MrChrisDruif :)
<MrChrisDruif> amjjawad; thanks. About restructuring the wiki you can post to the wiki mailing-list
<amjjawad> MrChrisDruif: please CC me when you will send that email :)
<MrChrisDruif> If you've got ideas, just share them
<amjjawad> MrChrisDruif: I thought we can chat ?
<gilir> #topic gilir - Weekly report - Devs teams report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  gilir - Weekly report - Devs teams report
<gilir> No big and visible progress here
<StephenSmally> i have to say a thing
<gilir> work on lxfind continue
<StephenSmally> gilir: yes, i'm implementing popup menu right now
<MrChrisDruif> gilir; Q: will LSC ever replace gdebi?
<wxl> yey lxfind!
<gilir> some progress on the packaging of the artwork, if you have the staging PPA, you may see some new stuff soon
<wxl> (sorry just had to say thank you)
<amjjawad> +1 for MrChrisDruif Q
<gilir> and an update of gnome-mpalyer is in progress, available in PPA staging too
<gilir> StephenSmally, yes ?
<StephenSmally> mmm, no, for the moment
<amjjawad> why not to keep it?
<gilir> StephenSmally, you said you had something to say :)
<StephenSmally> ah, excusme :)
<StephenSmally> a last bug on LSC should be fixed now (using non english translation)
<StephenSmally> so i think we will be ready to release 0.0.3 soon
<gilir> StephenSmally, cool :)
<gilir> StephenSmally, ping me when it's ready, so I can test it and update it on the repositories
<StephenSmally> of course
<gilir> StephenSmally, and remember, feature freeze will be here soon, be sure to include most feature you want before this :)
<StephenSmally> mm, but if lsc is already in the repo...
<gilir> nothing more from devs, unless StephenSmally or jmarsden|work want to add anything
<StephenSmally> shouldn't be possible update it without problems?
<jmarsden|work> Nothing from me, except that lightdm/black screen issue needs fixing :)
<gilir> StephenSmally, yes, but feature freeze applied to all packages in repo
<jmarsden|work> StephenSmally: You can't add new features even to an existing app after Feature Freeze without getting an FFe
<gilir> StephenSmally, after this, we can't add new feature, we focus on bug fixing
<StephenSmally> Argh, ok, i will be fast as possible ;-)
<StephenSmally> another little things,
<gilir> that's mean I need to finish the session manager really soon :/
<amjjawad> StephenSmally: will LSC do the same function that Gdebi does?
<wxl> ooh i forgot to ask, does lxfind do regex at all?
<wxl> probably not
<StephenSmally> i opened a topic on the Ubuntu Italian forum to collect feedbacks and hints about lubuntu
<StephenSmally> wxl: since you use find as backend, yes, no with the native glib backend
<wxl> StephenSmally: so if i understand you correctly, you're saying part of the backend does, but the other doesn't, so long story short, no
<StephenSmally> LxFind supports 3 kind of backends
<StephenSmally> Locate, Find and the Glib one
<wxl> ah so it just selects the right one; got it
<amjjawad> StephenSmally: will LSC do the same function that GDebi does?
<StephenSmally> amjjawad: no, not at the moment
<amjjawad> but in future yes, right?
<amjjawad> StephenSmally: and for me to know more about LSC and can answer such Qs on the Forum ... will user be able to install and use LSC on any variant?
<StephenSmally> amjjawad: we will see, if gdebi is too old or if is unuseful have to apps instead of one yes
<michaelrawson> amjawad; I have LSC on ubuntu, if that helps.
<StephenSmally> Yes, LSC haven't got any dependencies related to Lubuntu specifically, runs on any Debian Base distro
<amjjawad> michaelrawson: that is good to know :)
<amjjawad> StephenSmally: thanks :)
<amjjawad> one last Q
<amjjawad> will LXFind be available in 12.04?
<StephenSmally> mm, i think gilir will ask better
<amjjawad> gilir: ?
<StephenSmally> (Feature freeze, you know, we need tester and need fast builds, launchpad takes hours to build)
<gilir> amjjawad, not by default, it's too short, but yes in the PPA
<amjjawad> gilir: thanks a lot. I need to be ready to answer that on Forums :)
<michaelrawson> gilir; permamently in PPA, or in 12.10?
<jmarsden|work> Who knows what will be in 12:10, at this point? :)  probably lxfind can be in 12.10 if it matures by then...
<gilir> michaelrawson, no, we can reconsider it for 12.10
<michaelrawson> yup, thanks gilir.
<MrChrisDruif> StephenSmally; I'm not seeing a definitive answer if it'll support .deb installation
<amjjawad> gilir: what about LXScreenshot?
<gilir> amjjawad, as I said on the ML, we need to compare it with scrot, to see if we can replace it
<StephenSmally> MrChrisDruif: not in Precise
<amjjawad> so that means not yet decided. Thanks G
<gilir> any more questions ? :)
<amjjawad> gilir: wubi?
<MrChrisDruif> But eventually yes? Maybe with backports eventually in Precise?
<amjjawad> in 12.04?
<gilir> amjjawad, I had no news about it, still in progress for 12.04
<phillw> amjjawad: wubi will support 12.04 lubuntu
<amjjawad> Ok, thanks gilir  :)
<amjjawad> phillw: so is it official?
<gilir> phillw is more up-to-date than me :)
<phillw> amjjawad: the fix has been made, we awair beta1 for full testing.
<amjjawad> ok then it's kind of official :) thanks phillw
<amjjawad> I'm done with Qs so far
<phillw> amjjawad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/wubi/+bug/907524Â 
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 907524 in Wubi "No Lubuntu option" [Medium,Fix released]
<gilir> #topic jmarsden|work Mailing list migration
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  jmarsden|work Mailing list migration
<amjjawad> thanks phillw, I subscribed to that bug :)
<gilir> jmarsden|work, I planned to just close the team for new member, and remove current members to be sure nobody post to the old mailing list
<gilir> jmarsden|work, if you have a better idea, go :)
<amjjawad> gilir: why we do this? because we have sub-teams now?
<jmarsden|work> That's fine, I was wondering when we will do it, I am still seeing some people (phillw and amjjawad from memory) use the old list...
<gilir> amjjawad, no, because we have a new-and-more-official mailing list
<amjjawad> gilir: ok but what about the members?
<amjjawad> they need to join the NEW one first!!
<gilir> jmarsden|work, I planned to wait some days after the annoucement of the new mailing list, but I can do it shortly now
<gilir> amjjawad, I already send 2 mails on the old mailing about it
<gilir> I think it's enough :)
<amjjawad> gilir: true but I'm sure most did not read it yet :(
<michaelrawson> o/
<jmarsden|work> I think we need a clear decision; it's Ok with me if the etam thinks we need a longer period for people to move over... but ... yes, peole alread had notice.
<gilir> I'll see if I can send a message with the kick of the members
<amjjawad> gilir: I'll make sure to update the threads on UF
<amjjawad> so that most of them who are already there will be informed
<jmarsden|work> Thinking about this... which "team" is responsible for the mailing list? :)
<amjjawad> michaelrawson: where do you think we need to put that? what thread?
<michaelrawson> IDK. all of them!
<Unit193> One last email to say why they were removed, and remove them all, simple
<amjjawad> I can't put that on all of them, it's cross posting and you know what is next ;) michaelrawson
<michaelrawson> I meant LOST and LOSG and possible the 12.04 thread. :)
<gilir> jmarsden|work, I don't know if we really need a team on this :)
<amjjawad> jmarsden|work: I say we don't need that
<amjjawad> each sub-team will take care of its own list
<amjjawad> lubuntu-user will be for everyone
<Unit193> If people are subscribed to the mailing list, they should just need an email about it
<amjjawad> michaelrawson: I'll see where to put that, most likely Lubuntu One Stop Group :)
<michaelrawson> you could also possible ask the fridge, etc to put out something. IDK, I agree with gilir in part.
<michaelrawson> is it possible to send a message every time someone posts to that list, warning them it's closing soon, and where to look for new one?
<gilir> michaelrawson, maybe a blog post on a Ubuntu Planet should be enough ?
<michaelrawson> probably. :)
<michaelrawson> I am googling ubuntu planet. :)
<wxl> as an aside to the topic but consistent with this current tangent, amjjawad i think you should create a facebook GROUP for us
<wxl> pages are easy to ignore
<gilir> any ubuntu member volunteer for this blog post ? :p
<amjjawad> wxl: there is a group but i have no clue who is in charge???
<phillw> gilir: I'll giver it a go :)
<gilir> phillw, your blog is aggregate on the planet ?
<wxl> amjjawad: we'll chat later about this. i'm sure you could get in touch and have him/her make you an admin
<phillw> gilir: I thought you wanted s.o. to report it ubuntu planet?
<amjjawad> I tired and he/she ignored me as usual wxl
<wxl> amjjawad: then make a new group! :D
<amjjawad> phillw: what do you think? new group?
<wxl> amjjawad: e.g. "Official Lubuntu"
<amjjawad> I'm not an admin on Lubuntu Page yet??? so what gives? phillw ?
<amjjawad> I've been calling for that since ages!
<phillw> amjjawad: I rarely use fb!
<amjjawad> many do phillw
<amjjawad> I'm UP to this as forever
<amjjawad> :)
<amjjawad> my requests were being ignored
<amjjawad> I'm active on Fb
<amjjawad> just like UF
<gilir> phillw, we will talk about it later, maybe I can do a blog post about Lubuntu devs for 12.04, include this information
<wxl> ACTUALLY i'd be happy to help out with a facebook group as part of support
<amjjawad> I'm creating too many pages but I don't think it's very good idea. We need to focus on few official pages
<phillw> okies gilir
<michaelrawson> well...me too, but I'm with phill on fb usage.
<gilir> ok, it's time, if nobody have important stuff to add, I'll finish the meeting
<wxl> pages don't push notifications, but groups do, which is why i suggest groups
<amjjawad> wxl: i don't mind :)
 * MrChrisDruif uses fb a lot. But google+ for Ubuntu related stuff
<wxl> sounds like this is our personal project amjjawad :D
<amjjawad> I need the green light
<amjjawad> I already made G+ for Lubuntu ;)
<gilir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 18 21:02:46 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-18-20.05.moin.txt
<amjjawad> Lubuntu page on fb has more than 3K users
<wxl> i hate G+
<phillw> gilir:  thanks for chairing :)
<Unit193> gilir: Thanks
<gilir> thanks guys :)
<amjjawad> wxl: and michaelrawson  let's talk on the offtopic :)
<amjjawad> meet me there ;)
<michaelrawson> okay. :)
<wxl> ok
<wxl> thanks all
<michaelrawson> yup, thanks gilir, everybody.
<michaelrawson> bye!
<michaelrawson> hi StephenSmally
<vibhav> When will the meeting start?
<benonsoftware> vibhav: Which meeting?
<vibhav> North and South American regional approval board
<benonsoftware> vibhav: This time tomorrow
<vibhav> Why tomorrow?
<benonsoftware> Let me double check
<vibhav> ohhh
<vibhav> thanks benonsoftware
<Pendulum> vibhav: the meeting is tomorrow. (Americas board meetings are always Thursdays)
<benonsoftware> Yeah,
<benonsoftware> Its Thursday for me but TZs are crazy :P
<vibhav> :( I had to wake up early morning :(
<vibhav> well
<vibhav> I must sleep then
<benonsoftware> ;p
<vibhav> Can anybody visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas and tell me what have I done wrong?
<benonsoftware> What do you mean?
<benonsoftware> Ah I'll fix it for you
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-19
<tumbleweed> vibhav: err, if you live in asia, why are you applying to the americas board?
<tumbleweed> regional boards tend to meet at comfortable timezones for the region
<vibhav> Their timings clash with my schedule
<tumbleweed> comfortable times
<tumbleweed> ah
<vibhav> benonsoftware: did it?
<benonsoftware> vibhav: Someone is editing it already so I'll wait and see
<benonsoftware> Someones fixed it for you now
<vibhav> ah
<benonsoftware> popey bet me editing it :P
<pleia2> actually AlanBell did
<pleia2> different Alan, there are a bunch of them ;)
<benonsoftware> Ah
<benonsoftware> :P
 * benonsoftware always gets confused :P
<rumaging_pinz> anyone not born in the states?
<astraljava> Plenty, me, for instance.
<rumaging_pinz> do you live in the U.S. now?
<astraljava> No. I kinda suspected there's a catch, though. :)
<rumaging_pinz> yeah I need to find someone who moved to the states and ask em a couple questions for my sociology class
<astraljava> Ok.
<rumaging_pinz> do you know of any general chatrooms that I might check out? I'm kind of new to IRC
<benonsoftware> rumaging_pinz: Try #defocus
<rumaging_pinz> thanks
<AlecTaylor> hi
<AlecTaylor> I'm thinking to open-source a meetup.com style project in Django. Are there any already out to build off, or will I need to start from Pinax-Symposion?
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 19 14:59:16 2012 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<NCommander> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120119
<NCommander> Who's here?
<infinity> o/
<rbasak> \o
<ogra_> moop
<ppisati> o/
<NCommander> ok
<NCommander> [topic] Actoin Item Review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Actoin Item Review
 * GrueMaster is not
<janimo> hi
<infinity> Did we have any "actoin" items?
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to track dependency SNAFU on status tracker and remove non-ARM specs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: NCommander to track dependency SNAFU on status tracker and remove non-ARM specs
<NCommander> Done
<ogra_> yay
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Standing Items
<ogra_> looks pretty bad
<NCommander> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<ogra_> we need to finish some WIs
<GrueMaster> The burndown line on the chart should be reset to reflect the total # of jobs.
<ogra_> i'll see what i can do, but up to then just imagine the line in a different angle :P
<ogra_> we wouldnt look good then either
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander)
<GrueMaster> ubuntu-arm-p-mx53-image and ubuntu-arm-p-armhf-archive-bringup have duplicate work items.
<NCommander> No progress to report
<infinity> GrueMaster: One dupe, yeah.  But hey, we get to close it soon.
<rbasak> No requests. I may need to ask someone for help with an FTBFS on openmpi at some point
<rbasak> (from debian experimental)
<janimo> rbasak, I worked on openmpi last cycle
<rbasak> thanks, I might poke you
<janimo> rbasak, np
<Daviey> \o/
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ppisati> a new P/omap4 has been pulled this morning: 1404.6
<ppisati> it's 3.2.1 based, latest TI bits and some changes to the the pvr omap4 dkms happy
<infinity> ppisati: Did you ever sort out why enabling the errata fix blew up the kernel?
<ppisati> yesterday i played a bit with that dkms and, indeed, we can make it work in 3.2
<ppisati> infinity: not yet
<ogra_> on a sidenote, TI will not make the multimedia framework work in 3.2 ... they go straight to 3.3 with that
<ogra_> but we will have to stay on 3.2
<GrueMaster> sigh.
<ogra_> well
<ppisati> well
<ppisati> even if we go to 3.3
<ogra_> they will provide everything in the PPA
<ppisati> some bits won't be ready per P release
<ppisati> so users will still need to add stuff from TI ppa
<ppisati> so, even if we pick, MM will still be a half backed solution for a while
<ogra_> right
<ppisati> s/even if we pick/even if we pick 3.3/
<NCommander> anything else?
<ogra_> move
<ppisati> not from me
<GrueMaster> ppisati: Why was lp:ubuntu/linux-ti-omap4 recently linked to bug 903346?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 903346 in linux (Ubuntu Oneiric) "On omap, CONFIG_DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR needs to be set to 32768 per kconfig notes" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/903346
<ppisati> GrueMaster: let me check
<GrueMaster> afaik, it has always been correct.  Wrong bug assignment maybe?
<ppisati> probably
<ppisati> dunno
<NCommander> anything else?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<NCommander> libreoffice porting continues
<NCommander> slow and slow progress to report
<ogra_> we got some new failures in main
<janimo> another gmime package version fix, revert of a workaround from last cycle
<janimo> not much else
<infinity> I've put some work into fpc over the last day or two, might have 2.6.0 with float shinyness soon.
<NCommander> infinity: sounds like it was suprisingly straightforward
<infinity> Haven't looked at the calligra failure yet, but that's the only one in main that's new.
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<infinity> janimo: Want to poke it?
<janimo> infinity, sure
<GrueMaster> Not much that is reportable here.  Worked on getting daily ubuntu core test status reported on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<GrueMaster> Now focusing on monitoring preseed installations and automating daily installs.
<ogra_> GrueMaster, did you try preinstalled preseeding already ?
<GrueMaster> Not yet, but I will later today (post coffee).
 * ogra_ would like to know about massive bugs before A2
<ogra_> thanks
<rbasak> I have preseeded installs working on, armel and armhf
<rbasak> working ok
<ogra_> rbasak, with preinstalled ?
<rbasak> oh, no. what's preinstalled?
<GrueMaster> That is the images we push out.
<GrueMaster> netinstall preseed has been working for quite some time (early oneiric).
<rbasak> I'll ask in #ubuntu-arm.
<NCommander> anything else?
<GrueMaster> mahmoh: Anything from your end on arm server testing?
<ogra_> nope
<ogra_> oh, indeed
<mahmoh> GrueMaster: nothing this week, should have more info. next week
<NCommander> [topic] Linaro Status (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Status (rsalveti)
 * rsalveti waves
<rsalveti> guess the topic for today is that jcrigby is working on getting the packages
<rsalveti> for u-boot-linaro, imx53, and few other packages
<rsalveti> so should have more updates in the next few days
<rsalveti> but that's all from my side, we're working heavily on the release :-)
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> :-)
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<ogra_> erm, we missed image status
<NCommander> ok
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> oops
<ogra_> :)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> they fail ... second day in a rowm due to a skew by the looks of it
<ogra_> gnome-games-data : Breaks: gnome-games-common but 1:3.2.1-0ubuntu3 is to be installed
<ogra_> for today
<infinity> ogra_: That wasn't skew, that was a broken -meta.
<ogra_> ah, k
<infinity> ogra_: And a broken package.
<infinity> ogra_: Colin fixed the latter, I fixed the former.
<ogra_> oh
<ogra_> awesome !
<ogra_> nothing more from me
<NCommander> [topic] aob
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: aob
<NCommander> i think we got nothing
<NCommander> so I'll close the meeting out
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> three times
<NCommander> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 19 15:27:25 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-19-14.59.moin.txt
<GrueMaster> Short & sweet.  Nice.
 * GrueMaster returns to previously scheduled programming.
<YokoZar> #startmeeting Community Council Meeting Jan 19, 2012
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 19 17:00:22 2012 UTC.  The chair is YokoZar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting Jan 19, 2012 Meeting | Current topic:
<YokoZar> Hello
<sabdfl> hi
<dholbach> hi
<pleia2> hi
<dholbach> I'll be back in 4-5 minutes and read backlog - sorry about that
<czajkowski> Aloha
<YokoZar> According to the agenda, it seems today is the catchup with the Kubuntu council.  Do we have someone here from there?
<Riddell> hmm, Darkwing said he owuld
<Riddell> Darkwing: ping?
<czajkowski> Riddell: evening hope you're improving
<Riddell> I'm happy to answer any questions anyway
<pleia2> he's packing for SCALE, let me see if I can nudge him
<Riddell> czajkowski: I am thanks :)
<YokoZar> In the meantime since we have a couple minutes we can do the administrivia
<czajkowski> glad to hear it
<czajkowski> sure
<YokoZar> I suppose I can do the team report update and so on
<pleia2> do we want to talk about the mailing lists?
<YokoZar> Sure
<YokoZar> While we wait for Darkwing or similar ;)
<YokoZar> #topic Mailing list follow-up
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting Jan 19, 2012 Meeting | Current topic:  Mailing list follow-up
<YokoZar> So, I think what will probably come out of this discussion is an RT ticket asking for closure and archiving of whichever lists we decide on
<ScottK> \o is here too.
<YokoZar> And I'll make a note that we should also ask that the unarchived lists be noted as such in the mailing list
<pleia2> I added the comments I received from folks, so we should have a pretty good list now of ones we shouldn't shut down
<YokoZar> Yeah I don't have anything to really add to your comments
<YokoZar> Are we content shutting down the ones without a response?
<czajkowski> pleia2: did many respond?
<pleia2> YokoZar: my email was drafted in the form of "if you don't respond in 2 weeks, we're shutting it down"
<sabdfl> YokoZar, yes
<pleia2> 2 of the lists noted had contacts bounce, so we may want to try something further there
<YokoZar> pleia2: ahh that answers that then
<pleia2> czajkowski: maybe 8 or so of them
<czajkowski> pleia2: are they active or do they just not want to see them go ?
<pleia2> some of them are active, some are meant to be very low traffic
<pleia2> (like -mirrors-announce)
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> thanks
 * YokoZar updates pad to move the "keep" lists 
<czajkowski> pleia2: do you want me to file the RTs to get them closed?
<pleia2> czajkowski: that would be great
<czajkowski> grand job shall get on that tmorrow
<YokoZar> #action czajkowski to file RT ticket to close inactive mailing lists (and ask they be moved to the archived section)
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski to file RT ticket to close inactive mailing lists (and ask they be moved to the archived section)
<YokoZar> So, there were still a few in the "unsorted" section
<YokoZar> I suspect we're not 100% done here
<czajkowski> nods
<YokoZar> But I'm happy with the first attempt.
<czajkowski> have they been contacted ?
<YokoZar> I imagine not
<czajkowski> YokoZar: it;s a good start to spring cleaning alright
<czajkowski> do you want me to follow on from pleia2 email and mail them and see if they are active ?
<YokoZar> Sure.  Basically every list that isn't a loco list in the unsorted is probably worthy of investigation
<czajkowski> grand
<czajkowski> action me that again and will get the sample text of what pleia2 sent and send it to them
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone for working on this
<YokoZar> #action czajkowski to comb the unsorted mailing lists on the pad, find non-Loco lists, investigate worthiness of closure, and email admins
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski to comb the unsorted mailing lists on the pad, find non-Loco lists, investigate worthiness of closure, and email admins
<YokoZar> Ok, I think that's all on that for today
<czajkowski> YokoZar: thanks
<pleia2> czajkowski: it's on my blog: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=5598
<czajkowski> pleia2: why thank you :)
<YokoZar> #topic Kubuntu Council catchup
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting Jan 19, 2012 Meeting | Current topic:  Kubuntu Council catchup
<Riddell> no Darkwing I guess
<YokoZar> So, we have a ScottK and a Riddell instead :)
<Riddell> YokoZar: what do you want to know?
<pleia2> sounds like Darkwing got caught up in the excitement of all our SCALE stuff this weekend :)
<ScottK> Hello.
<Darkwing> sorry
<pleia2> oh there he is!
<Darkwing> I'm in the car heading north.
<Darkwing> :D
<czajkowski> please tell me someone else is driving while you are on irc!
<Riddell> Darkwing: did you know what you wanted to say?
<ScottK> Hopefully not driving ...
<Darkwing> of course. I don't drive. :)
<ScottK> Since this is the first one if these we've done, I'm not quite sure what we're supposed to discuss.
<YokoZar> Riddell: We're mostly interested in any opportunity to help make the project work together a bit more, especially if it concerns any friction between processes and governance and such
<YokoZar> At one level, the CC just wants to make sure there's no systemic unspoken problems lurking  ;)
<Riddell> I can't think of any just now..
<sabdfl> that's the main thing :)
<ScottK> The biggest problem at the moment is that Riddell can't manage to sufficiently look out for French drivers.
<Riddell> I will say the kubuntu community is down a bit from normal activity probably because people are burnt out after I was on rotation last cycle
<ScottK> Definitely true in my case.
<pleia2> Riddell: btw, glad to hear you're ok :)
<Riddell> and being concussed I'm doing things a bit slower than normal (but recovering, don't worry)
<Darkwing> bare with me. irc on phone and trying to dig out laptop
<Riddell> we didnt get alpha 1 out and it's unclear what it'll take for alpha 2, but that's not fully community council business
<YokoZar> Riddell: Major developments are interesting, though.
<Darkwing> for the community at large the biggest project we are looking at is our bug reporting.
<Riddell> everyone wants to start on kubuntu active (table/mobile version) but we haven't found the person-power yet
<dholbach> For which parts of the project did you get new contributors in the past year? What do you think excites people most about Kubuntu?
<YokoZar> I'm also interested in if it's a new wave of people, or the same people doing different things
<Riddell> oh we got fabo as a new kubuntu-dev, his work on linaro means he's more active and wants to contribute more
<ScottK> We've had some new people come into development who haven't been around.
<ScottK> I think the fact that we can make them kubuntu-dev without having to be core-dev has helped.
<sabdfl> \o/
<czajkowski> thats good to hear
<dholbach> ScottK, when you say "who haven't been around" you mean they've gone missing in the last year?
<Darkwing> we had a lot more doc contribution last cycle. I think we are starting to get fresh faces. I've been contacted and have a couple meetings this weekend with qt partners interested on how kubuntu works
<ScottK> dholbach: No, I mean are new to the project.  fabo has been connectect to Kubuntu via Debian since approximately forever.
<Riddell> dholbach: I think what existes often is it's easy to see our gaps compared to ubuntu desktop so it's easy for people to find out what needs doing
<dholbach> ScottK, ahhhh ok
<dholbach> For fresh blood, I'd be happy to offer the same help I offered the Edubuntu team: with your help I could try to get some publicity via the developer news or maybe there'd be someone willing to give a session at Ubuntu Developer Week
<YokoZar> Riddell: I do think it interesting that just making it clear where something is behind can draw contribution easily (whether it's relative to another part of the project or with a different OS). Do you think there might be less obvious gaps worthy of attention in some fashion?
<Riddell> YokoZar: our work items are pretty easy to find
<Riddell> we don't struggle when people ask what they can do
<Riddell> it's been nice over the last year having new upstream link people stepping up, afiestas for kde and fregl for qt have been good
<dholbach> sweet
<Riddell> we used to have someone from kdepim hanging around which was much needed but not recently
<Riddell> dholbach: developer news could work, I'm out for UDW talks are too hard on my poor brain just now
<dholbach> Riddell, don't worry - I'll send a mail over to kubuntu-devel@
<dholbach> thanks a bunch :)
<YokoZar> That's certainly true, it's not exactly hard to find something that needs doing in this project ;)
<YokoZar> I'm more interested in the marginal case where something in particular inspires someone to contribute, because that particular issue speaks to them more for some reason (eg, it's in their field of expertise)
<ScottK> One point probably worth mentioning is that it seems to me like we're collaborating well with Canonical teams like the people working on touch stuff.
<ScottK> "Sharing" the need to have Qt working between Kubuntu and Unity 2D seems like it's going well too.
<czajkowski> ScottK: thats really good to hear and nice feedback
<pleia2> that's good to hear
<dholbach> Did the Kubuntu Council have lots to do in the last two cycles?
<Riddell> council hasn't even met this cycle I think, my fault for not organising meetings
<ScottK> Kubuntu Council is really pretty easy.  It's mostly approving members and approving the development plans for each cycle.
<ScottK> Neither seem to be very controversial or difficult.
<dholbach> Nice, that's good to hear.
<czajkowski> ScottK: can I ask why the council email address isnt listed on the launchpad page, does make it kind ofhard to mail you all rather than getting all the address off lp and then emailing
<ScottK> Most of the people involved in the project share a reasonably common vision of what Kubuntu is about, so there isn't a lot of controversy.
<ScottK> czajkowski: I'm not sure there is one.
<Riddell> czajkowski: the council doesn't have an e-mail address
<Riddell> we use the kubuntu-devel list, we haven't had a need to do anything other than in the open
<czajkowski> maybe a note saying that on the lp  page on the wiki page might be an idea  I searhced for a long time before I wento email all one by one
<czajkowski> *searched
<sabdfl> Qt team was super to collaborate with on touch
<czajkowski> ScottK: Riddell Darkwing by all accounts ye do seem to be doing a great job and it's good to see things are still going on and improving
<pleia2> and in general, the Qt folks approached Darkwing and I about SCALE this week, we'll be sharing some booth materials :)
<ScottK> Nice
<pleia2> telling people about Kubuntu and Unity 2D
<Riddell> Qt are doing the community thing very promisingly I think, they want it to be a fully open project
<sabdfl> just so long as they keep it tightly owned and directed :)
<sabdfl> so far, looks great
<Darkwing> ill be talking with the Qt Booth at scale
<Riddell> sabdfl: yes, the need for defining how to do that is why the qt community project has taken a while
<Riddell> they have their structure plan defined now and it's looking good and taking real form
<YokoZar> I'm curious, are these conference events a place where new collaboration starts?
<Darkwing> I have a question for the CC. what would you like to see from kubuntu that might be lacking?
<Darkwing> YokoZar: they can be. because of the face to face time.
<pleia2> YokoZar: I'd say it's more about just getting in touch so you feel more connected, next time you run into an issue you might have someone you've met to go through rather than blindly emailing someone off a list or website
<Darkwing> could imagine a uds with only email and irc?
<Darkwing> that personal touch goes so much further then anything else.
<YokoZar> Well, UDS is clearly good ;)  But every time I go to things like OSCon with things like convention floors and marketing booths, it just reminds me how much I prefer UDS ;)
<Darkwing> well yes, uds has the development focus but, the personal connections can and have been very effective to getting collaborative efforts started
<dholbach> Darkwing, after what I've heard, I'm quite happy with how things are coming together
<YokoZar> To answer your question, I can't really think of anything specific I want from Kubuntu other than "more" ;)
<Darkwing> dholbach: awesome. :P @ czajkowski
 * Darkwing ducks
<czajkowski> Darkwing: *grin*
<dholbach> Do you feel there's anything the CC could do for you? (Apart from helping to find new contributors. :-))
<YokoZar> http://instantrimshot.com/
<Riddell> if I can carry it we'll have a bit kubuntu poster at FOSDEM too
<Riddell> big
<czajkowski> oh excellent Riddell see you there :)
<Darkwing> I can't think of anything other then the contribs. I wanted to thank you for wanting to sit down with us
<YokoZar> Yes, thank you Darkwing Riddell and ScottK for attending :)
<pleia2> thanks guys
<ScottK> You're welcome.
<Darkwing> sorry I was late and disjointed :)
<dholbach> Yeah, thanks a bunch - keep up the good work!
<czajkowski> Riddell: Darkwing ScottK thank you for the update and it was great to learn what is happening
<YokoZar> #topic Fixed agenda items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting Jan 19, 2012 Meeting | Current topic:  Fixed agenda items
<YokoZar> Next chair?
<YokoZar> Seeing no volunteers...
<czajkowski> I can do if needed
<YokoZar> Or maybe we can get akgraner to ;)
<sabdfl> cunning
<czajkowski> heh
<YokoZar> #action czajkowski to chair next meeting or ask akgraner to
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski to chair next meeting or ask akgraner to
<sabdfl> well done team K, nice to have you here
<sabdfl> calligra is looking fun
<YokoZar> #action YokoZar to update agenda wiki page for next meeting time
<meetingology> ACTION: YokoZar to update agenda wiki page for next meeting time
<czajkowski> Is are gonna love me and my Rt's! :)
<YokoZar> czajkowski: would you mind updating the team report to include the mailing deathlist?
<YokoZar> (once the RT goes through)
<czajkowski> will do
<YokoZar> #action czajkowski to update team report ~ removed mailing lists
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski to update team report ~ removed mailing lists
<czajkowski> I'm so gonna have to bring cookies to IS one of these days
<YokoZar> #action YokoZar to post meeting log
<meetingology> ACTION: YokoZar to post meeting log
<dholbach> A quick update regarding the Planet update: I talked to Alan Bell and his changes went in already, it's just a work item for us to go through it again and check the suggested removals and get them out of the config
<pleia2> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> I sent a reminder mail to the CC list
<czajkowski> great stuff
<YokoZar> thanks dholbach -- do you need anyone to take any new actions?
<pleia2> oh, and akgraner spoke with jcastro about all the non-ubuntu cloud.ubuntu.com posts
<pleia2> they will be tagging the ubuntu ones as ubuntu :)
<pleia2> and only sending those to planet
<dholbach> YokoZar, no, I guess 2 or more of us should have a look over it to make sure we don't accidentally delete valid entries
<dholbach> but that's it
<YokoZar> Ok good
<YokoZar> I'm sure someone will volunteer to assist when you need it :)
<dholbach> alright my friends - I'm invited for dinner and need to rush out now
<pleia2> have a good night
<YokoZar> Yes, I think we're about done
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone
<dholbach> big hugs
<pleia2> thanks everyone
<czajkowski> sweet
<czajkowski> thanks folks
<YokoZar> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 19 17:58:34 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-19-17.00.moin.txt
<benonsoftware> dinda: Hello, I was wondering did you get my email?
<TiMiDo> shorty the Americas Meeting will appear,?
<vibhav> yes
<TiMiDo> oh cool, ;)
 * vibhav shakes with excitement
 * vibhav checks the fridge again
 * benonsoftware has for the past 4 hours
<vibhav> benonsoftware: I just woke up now
<TiMiDo> good luck guys in the meeting,
<vibhav> Its 5:15 Am here
<TiMiDo> and girls, :<
<dinda> benonsoftware: Idon't think I did
<vibhav> Thaks TiMiDo !
 * txomon|home lols at vibhav 
<TiMiDo> here it's 6:49 PM
<TiMiDo> so I'm good,
<n0rman> 11 minutes! :)
<TiMiDo> Yeah
<benonsoftware> dinda: It was about the things for Ubunut and teachers
<TiMiDo> actually 9 minutes more
<benonsoftware> 8
<n0rman> albrigha: ping
<albrigha> n0rman: pong
<TiMiDo> n0rman, from nicaragua,?
<n0rman> ashams: ping
<n0rman> TiMiDo: yes, how do you know it? :)
<ashams> n0rman, hi
<TiMiDo> back in 2009 or 2010 i join a few times, #ubuntu-ni
<dinda> benonsoftware:  unfortunately I haven't had any time to work on education :(
<n0rman> TiMiDo: that's why I remember your nickname :)
<benonsoftware> Thats ok
<TiMiDo> yeah n0rman i think you we're applying to become an Ubuntu member, did you got accept it already,?
<n0rman> TiMiDo: yes :)  I did it
<TiMiDo> Congratulations,
<vibhav> I HAE ME ISP!
<vibhav> hate*
<TiMiDo> I'm applying back today, and now my wiki, is up to date,
 * benonsoftware wishes everyone good luck
<n0rman> TiMiDo: let see :)
<TiMiDo> same to you,
<TiMiDo> n0rman, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AaronFarias
<TiMiDo> ;P
 * vibhav hands everybody popcorn
<greg-g> thanks vibhav :)
 * TiMiDo hands everyone some Coke, Or Pepsi, caffeine time, :P
 * txomon|home would like to eat popcorns now, sweet and full of sugar ones
<TiMiDo> oh the sweet popcorns,
<txomon|home> yeah, full of sugar and butter popcorns... :D
<TiMiDo> Nice,
<TiMiDo> 1 min Left,
<vibhav_> Me kicks his modem
<TiMiDo> lol treat it gentle vibhav
<TiMiDo> ;P
<greg-g> hello everyone!
<vibhav> if I disconnect due to my stupid ISP
<greg-g> is everyone ready for the meeting?
<vibhav> oh yes
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-20
<ashams> yep
<greg-g> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 20 00:00:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is greg-g. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<greg-g> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for <DATE>. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<greg-g> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<greg-g> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<greg-g> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<greg-g> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<greg-g> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<greg-g> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<greg-g> kdub? Kevin? you here?
<vibhav> ...
<greg-g> nope
<greg-g> TiMiDo: ? ready?
<JHOSMAN> Hello World!
<TiMiDo> yes
<TiMiDo> we are ready
<TiMiDo> ;P
<greg-g> #topic TiMiDo for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: TiMiDo for membership
<greg-g> go for it, please introduce yourself, TiMiDo
<TiMiDo> hello there my name is Aaron Farias I been using Linux Since i was a little kid, Kid  i mean teenager age, and now I been helping ubuntu to grow, in my lab,
<TiMiDo> and it has been growing,
 * bkerensa coughs
<TiMiDo> and of course I'm helping in launchpad to translate Ubuntu Packages, and also checking the right translations. and make sure if it is a bug to make sure it's close down,
<greg-g> what lab are you referring to, TiMiDo ?
<TiMiDo> greg-g, college, lab
<greg-g> cool
<MrChrisDruif> Good going TiMiDo
<TiMiDo> yeah, and here it's my wiki page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AaronFarias
<greg-g> I see you do a lot with translations, and you live in Miami, have you done much with the Florida loco?
<Pendulum> TiMiDo: do you have any further plans for doing things with the Flordia LoCo? (Either attending or hosting events yourself)
<dinda> TiMiDo:  you've done a great many translations!  do you think you'll be more active in the Florida LoCo Team?
<TiMiDo> and my launchpad also, it's https://launchpad.net/~timido
<greg-g> hah, we all think alike :)
<TiMiDo> dinda, now I'm working, So On my free time, sure
<TiMiDo> but my main goal, and to improve, Ubuntu is helping people on reporting bugs also
<TiMiDo> with my Computer Science Class,
<greg-g> TiMiDo: I know ever loco needs help with event planning/coordination, hint hint ;)
<dinda> any other questions from the board?
<TiMiDo> I been teaching them, either how to report, and how to check the database of the RCS bugs open, and close
<Pendulum> BBB
<Pendulum> sorry, kitten on keyboard
<n0rman> TiMiDo:  cool :)
<greg-g> TiMiDo: great!
<MrChrisDruif> Pendulum; ^_^
<TiMiDo> and also
<TiMiDo> checking the debian/rules
<TiMiDo> so there is no bugs later on with the translations files
<greg-g> #voters dinda Pendulum n0rman cyphermox
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cyphermox dinda n0rman
<greg-g> #voters dinda Pendulum n0rman cyphermox greg-g
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cyphermox dinda greg-g n0rman
<greg-g> #vote TiMiDo for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: TiMiDo for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<dinda> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<n0rman> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from n0rman
<greg-g> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: TiMiDo for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<greg-g> great, welcome aboard, TiMiDo !
<TiMiDo> thank you greg-g
<n0rman> congrats TiMiDo  :)and welcome
<benonsoftware> Well done TiMiDo
<MrChrisDruif> Congratulations TiMiDo
<TiMiDo> thank you a lot guy's :)
<vibhav> thanks TiMiDo
<JoseeAntonioR> Congrats, TiMiDo!
 * ashams Congrats TiMiDo 
<TiMiDo> thanks vibhav good luck also ;)
<Pendulum> TiMiDo: congrats!
<greg-g> caravena? Cristian?
<TiMiDo> thanks Pendulum
<greg-g> ashams: ready?
<ashams> yes
<greg-g> #topic ashams for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ashams for membership
<greg-g> great, please introduce yourself ashams
<ashams> Hello, my Name is Ahmed Shams, Egyptian, Ubuntu Translator, Bug Triager and Community worker.
<ashams> First, sorry for increasing you load, as I should have my meeting with EMEA instead of Americas RMB!.
<greg-g> ashams: what time is it for you?!
<ashams> 2 am
<ashams> :)
<greg-g> eek!
<ashams> I started to contribute to Ubuntu since 2009, with translation, support and testing, then tried to get more involved by focusing on bug triage and support for Touchpad problems in Ubuntu. Since that, I take care of touchpad-related issues, besides finding and triaging papercuts.
<MrChrisDruif> Ghehe, 1 am here
<greg-g> is there a reason you choose to do it with us instead of EMEA?
<ashams> yes, I was confused of time of emea date
<ashams> I thought it was 10th of jan instead of 3rd
 * greg-g nods
<ashams> because I thought it would be delayed for vacation
<ashams> In Community side, I'm serving as LoCo teams' ML moderator, keeper of the wiki-site and member of the current *step*-council. Outside the LoCo, I found my home in ~ubuntu-leadership(-dev) team and going with those good people to develop how things go in here.
<ashams> You can find my page here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AhmedShams
<ashams> done
<dinda> ashams:  I applaud your enthusiasm for staying up unitl 2am for this meeting!
<ashams> dinda, thanks :-)
<dinda> ashams:  when do you think the Egyptian Loco team might be ready to try for 'official' status?
<ashams> dinda, we were planning for this a couple of months ago
<MrChrisDruif> ashams; looks good. I'll take your contributions section as a "template" for my own contributions page
<ashams> but we prefered to get better organization first
<ashams> that's why we got a council
<ashams> or rather a step council
<dinda> ashams:  it can be difficult to get organzied for such a large community
<ashams> we want to get more *stable* activity as first goal
<greg-g> good idea
<dinda> ashams:  is it mostly IRC activity or events?
<greg-g> if you have any questions or need assistance, do join the #ubuntu-locoteams channel and ask questions.
<ashams> dinda, yes it can, but we borrowed the idea of Focus Groups to help with this
 * greg-g is on the LoCo Council
<ashams> dinda, events
<dinda> great!
<ashams> greg-g, thanks, sure I'd :-)
 * SergioMeneses -> hi all
<TiMiDo> hi SergioMeneses
<ashams> dinda, actually we don't focus on IRC events that much
<n0rman> ashams: are there any pics of the Egyptian LoCo team?
<ashams> n0rman, ah, yes, let my find it
<greg-g> while you do that, lets vote ;)
<greg-g> #vote ashams for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: ashams for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<n0rman> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from n0rman
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<dinda> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda
<greg-g> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: ashams for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<greg-g> congrats and welcome aboard, ashams !
<vibhav> Congrats ashams !
<n0rman> ashams: I mean, events or meeting of the LoCo :)
<TiMiDo> Congratulations ashams
<benonsoftware> Well done ashams
<n0rman> welcome ashams
<MrChrisDruif> ashams; Congratulations!
<JoseeAntonioR> Congratulations, and welcome, ashams!
<ashams> n0rman, sorry, I can't find the flicker profile right now, but we have some on our fb page: http://www.facebook.com/ubuntueg?sk=photos
<MrChrisDruif> Now off to bed with you ;-)
<greg-g> yes, go to sleep!
<n0rman> vibhav: ?
<Pendulum> ashams: congrats!
<JoseGutierrez> Congrats ashams!!!
<greg-g> ready vibhav ?
<vibhav> n0rman: yes?
<vibhav> oh yes
<greg-g> #topic vibhav for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: vibhav for membership
<greg-g> Please introduce yourself, vibhav
<ashams> Thank you everybody, greg-g vibhav n0rman TiMiDo benonsoftware MrChrisDruif JoseeAntonioR Pendulum
<MrChrisDruif> ^_^
<vibhav> hello all , my name is Vibhav Pant , I am an active Ubuntu Translator , Tester and convertor
<vibhav> PS : please excuse me if I become dead for some time
<vibhav> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/vibhav
 * MrChrisDruif has seen vibhav's name before somewhere...
<greg-g> also, why did you attend this one instead of another, more timezone appropriate, membership board?
<bkerensa> Congrats ashams way to go!
<vibhav> Because the timings of Asian board clash with my schedule , greg-g
<ashams> bkerensa, Thanks :-)
<greg-g> vibhav: ah
<vibhav> you can see me at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/vibhav
<greg-g> vibhav: what kind of work do you do with the Indian LoCo?
<vibhav_> Sorry guys , its my connection
<vibhav_> Sorry guys , its my connection
<greg-g> unfortunately, no :/
<vibhav> so , where were we?
<greg-g> erm, oops wrong windo
<greg-g> vibhav: what kind of work do you do with the Indian LoCo?
<vibhav> greg-g: Translation , and converting people to Ubuntu
<greg-g> does the LoCo have many events?
<vibhav> It has some , but due to my studies and remote location , I cant visit them
<Pendulum> vibhav: I notice you say that you don't do much on IRC, but your one testimonial mentions IRC. Is spending more time working on IRC something you're interested in doing?
<cyphermox> vibhav: do you have plans to contribute (in collaboration with others) in other ways than translations?
<vibhav> Pendulum: I am not good at all on helping people on IRC
<vibhav> cyphermox: TEsting Ubuntu pre release images
<MrChrisDruif> vibhav; working on IRC is more then "just" support/help
<greg-g> vibhav: I think I missed this: when did become active with Ubuntu work? Not just as a user.
<greg-g> vibhav: I think I missed this: when did become active with Ubuntu work? Not just as a user.
<cyphermox> vibhav: I see you mentioned starting this alreday, what kind of testing were you doing, milestone tests?
<vibhav> cyphermox: Bug testing
<cyphermox> vibhav: but I mean, using the tracker?
<vibhav> greg-g: I started translation about 6 months ago
<vibhav> cyphermox: yes
<vibhav> yes
<cyphermox> ok
<vibhav> But I can assure you that I translate Ubuntu very well
<dinda> vibhav: why are you seeking membership at this time?
<vibhav> dinda : because I have already missed 2 meetings
<vibhav> You can see my profile at https://launchpad.net/~vibhavp
<dinda> vibhav:  I guess I'm asking more about your motivations to be a member
<vibhav> dinda: Its nice to be a recognized contributor
<pangolin> Council may i make a statement?
<dinda> vibhav:  do you think you will be a good advocate and representative going forward?
<dinda> pangolin:  please do
<pangolin> I would like to say i think vibhav is a great person and he has a lot of energy. I feel he will one day make a great ubuntu member but at this time I am not certain he has done enough with the community to merit membership. I would like to see more from him.
<pangolin> that is all I wanted to say.
<greg-g> thank you pangolin.
<vibhav_> sorry again
<cyphermox> vibhav: do you have concrete plans to revive the hindi translation efforts or help getting the LoCo team approved?
<vibhav> cyphermox: YES!
<cyphermox> vibhav: please tell me more ;)
<vibhav> cyphermox: The Hindi Translation Team used to be alive and flourishing , but now since most of theam are elders , is dead
<vibhav> The Indian LoCo's administrators are also inactive
<cyphermox> but do you have friends who might want to dive in and help out?
<vibhav>  I am ashamed at this
<greg-g> #vote vibhav for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: vibhav for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<greg-g> +0 I would love to see some more collaboration with other Indian LoCo members
<meetingology> +0 I would love to see some more collaboration with other Indian LoCo members received from greg-g
<dinda> +0 agree with greg-g
<meetingology> +0 agree with greg-g received from dinda
<vibhav_> I translate much , aint that good?
<Pendulum> +0 I think your translations work has been great, but I'd like to see more collaberation with other people in the community
<meetingology> +0 I think your translations work has been great, but I'd like to see more collaberation with other people in the community received from Pendulum
<vibhav_> But I cant do that
<cyphermox> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> really impressive translation work, but I'd also like to see more collaboration
<greg-g> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: vibhav for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<dinda> vibhav: memberships is also about you being part of the larger community
<cyphermox> vibhav: do you have friends who might want to help out?
<vibhav_> cyphermox: yes
<greg-g> I seem to remember some Free Software groups related to Ubuntu in India recently, right?
<n0rman> vibhav_: great! :) now you just need to do it, get closer to the ubuntu community :) collaborate with other persons :)
<greg-g> or at least some events?
<bkerensa> vibhav_: Dont worry your doing good work just get more involved with community.... India has lots :)
<vibhav_> I am a studying kid , so I dont have mmuch time for any physical meetings
<cyphermox> vibhav: that would go a long way helping you with reviving the translation team and LoCo
 * txomon|home understands that vibhav _ has a lot of  illusion, but thinks you might get in touch with more of your local area partners
<cyphermox> vibhav: yes, that's all fine :)
<greg-g> vibhav_: helping out in other ways is also great: planning, outreach, etc
<cyphermox> above all, keep up the translation work, you're doing great!
<vibhav_> thanks
<greg-g> indeed!
<greg-g> benonsoftware: ready?
<benonsoftware> Yep
<greg-g> #topic benonsoftware for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: benonsoftware for membership
<greg-g> please introduce yourself, benonsoftware
<benonsoftware> Hello, I am Ben Donald-Wilson and I am a high school student in Australia
<greg-g> btw, with a 2011 join date, I'm surprised you got the "benny" userid on LP :)
<benonsoftware> greg-g: I emailed the user and he changed it :P
<greg-g> ahhhh :)
<benonsoftware> My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/benny and LP is https://launchpad.net/~benny
<benonsoftware> I have done a couple of Ubuntu User Days sessions and one Global Jam, recently I have joined the Ubuntu Classroom Team
<benonsoftware> I have also been trying very hard to get Ubuntu into my school
<Unit193> I'm here to say I know him from UBT, he has done work on team reports
<benonsoftware> However none of the IT teachers knew what Ubuntu was and I have also found out that I would proberly have to go to the State Government with Ubuntu as they do the stuuf for that
<greg-g> thanks Unit193 !
<benonsoftware> I will try this year with my new school and talk to them about Ubuntun and see what happenes
<greg-g> wow, going to the State gov is a pain, good on you for trying to do it!
<benonsoftware> Thank you
<dinda> benonsoftware:  Your wiki says you are "very active" in the Australian Loco - what kind of things have you done?
<benonsoftware> I am also active in the Ubuntu-AU LoCo doing the Team Reports too
<benonsoftware> I am also trying to set up a release party too at the moment
<philipballew> Im here because 1. He is a all around good guy and 2 he shows the sprit of Ubuntu through his hard work and action. As a ubuntu member, I think he would make a great  member
<greg-g> thank you philipballew
<philipballew> no problem greg-g
<JoseeAntonioR> I have attended both sessions that Ben gave, and I was impressed. He was very enthusiastic, and put a lot of effort in preparing his materials. In my opinion, he would be one of those members who are always trying to make a better community.
<MrChrisDruif> Good luck benonsoftware !!
<benonsoftware> MrChrisDruif: Thank you
<greg-g> thanks JoseeAntonioR
<greg-g> #vote benonsoftware for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: benonsoftware for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<dinda> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda
 * benonsoftware is closing his eyes :P
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<greg-g> +1 good work and good particpation in the community
<meetingology> +1 good work and good particpation in the community received from greg-g
<n0rman> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from n0rman
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<greg-g> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: benonsoftware for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<greg-g> congrats and welcome aboard, benonsoftware !
<MrChrisDruif> benonsoftware; congratulations!
<Pendulum> benonsoftware: congrats!
<benonsoftware> Thanks everyone
<cyphermox> benonsoftware: congrats
<greg-g> JHOSMAN: ready?
<JoseeAntonioR> congratulations, benonsoftware!
<JHOSMAN> yes
<JoseGutierrez> Jhosman, Jhosman .... Forward brother :)
<greg-g> #topic JHOSMAN for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: JHOSMAN for membership
<benonsoftware> Thanks MrChrisDruif Pendulum JoseeAntonioR greg-g
<greg-g> please introduce yourself JHOSMAN
<JHOSMAN> Hi, my name is Jhosman am of the City of Bogota - Colombia 21 years I have used Ubuntu for over 5 years and a member of the community of Ubuntu Colombia, now in this crazy Team webMaster served as managing the website http://www.ubuntu-co.com and social networking activities, or have participated in many in Colombia have participated in launchpad besides the bugs and translations section, I think it's time to be part of the 
<TiMiDo> congratulations benonsoftware
<TiMiDo> :)
<benonsoftware> Thanks TiMiDo :P
<JHOSMAN> treatment of all leisure time activities for the community of Ubuntu Colombia, also promotes Ubuntu in my university, work and friends. Additionally I am Alpha and Beta tester of all Ubuntu distributions developing
<JHOSMAN> It also develops the theme for my Loco Team Chrome, Chromium and additionally from a Chrome Application found in the Google Chrome Store liciencia both with Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported  I support the Community Ubuntu Colombia em Twitter, Facebook and mailing list Ubuntu Colombia
<JHOSMAN> Additionally I have thought about all the logistics work in the 2012 Bogota FLISOL
<greg-g> I see the SergioMeneses left a testimonial, good deal :)
<SergioMeneses> JHOSMAN: is a great guy! and he will be a great ubuntu member!
<greg-g> thanks much, SergioMeneses :)
<SergioMeneses> greg-g: don't worry my dear friend
<dinda> JhOSMAN:  you have a great wiki page and great testimonials
<greg-g> JHOSMAN: your participation looks great
<MrChrisDruif> To any other applicants: good luck!
<JHOSMAN> =)
<MrChrisDruif> I'm off to bed
 * txomon|home too
 * txomon|home bye!
<greg-g> #vote JHOSMAN for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: JHOSMAN for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<greg-g> +1 great work
<meetingology> +1 great work received from greg-g
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<dinda> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<n0rman> Â¿1
<n0rman> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from n0rman
<n0rman> sorry :)
<greg-g> not sure about your +1? ;)
<greg-g> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: JHOSMAN for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> what was that? :D
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, JHOSMAN !
<JHOSMAN> :D Thanks!!!!!!
<bkerensa> uh oh
<benonsoftware> Well done JHOSMAN
<cyphermox> great work JHOSMAN!
<JoseGutierrez> Congrats Jhosman !!!!!
<n0rman> welcome kh :)
<bkerensa> albrigha must be up next :D
<greg-g> bkerensa: ahh :)
<n0rman> :S
<SergioMeneses> JHOSMAN: congrats bro
<greg-g> albrigha: you ready?
<albrigha> yep!
<TiMiDo> JHOSMAN, welcome aboard
<JHOSMAN> Nice =)
<Pendulum> JoseGutierrez: congrats!
<Pendulum> bah
<TiMiDo> Congratulations,
<SergioMeneses> JHOSMAN: hard work bro
<Pendulum> JHOSMAN: congrats!
<JoseGutierrez> :)
<JHOSMAN> +1
<greg-g> #topic albrigha for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: albrigha for membership
<greg-g> please introduce yourself, albrigha
<albrigha> Hello! My name is Aaron.  I've been working with Ubuntu for the past 7-8 years.  I worked on the HP Linux Imaging and Printing project where I did a lot of launchpad support as well as helping Ubuntuforum users with issues.
<albrigha> I'd like to be a member to be able to participate in the direction of Ubuntu (voting), etc as well as continuing to help users with problems and working to make ubuntu amazing.
<albrigha> (not that it isn't amazing now..) :)
<greg-g> the HPLIP stuff was for work at a previous job?
<albrigha> Yes, this is true.
 * greg-g is just looking at your LinkedIn :)
<JHOSMAN> https://twitter.com/#!/ubuntuco/status/160165237411168258
<albrigha> but during that time I also participated on ubuntuforums with helping users with other unrelated ubuntu issues.
<greg-g> awesome
<Pendulum> albrigha: do you have any involvement with the Oregon LoCo? (I notice Launchpad says you're a member of the group)
<albrigha> I am working on being more active. I've been on the team for several years, but until we had some new management it was pretty inactive
<greg-g> :)
 * bkerensa is Team Lead for Oregon
<albrigha> It's been getting more active however, and I will be participating.
<greg-g> albrigha: good deal
<dinda> albrigha: any forums folks around to help support you?
<albrigha> no I didn't think to have some ready.
<albrigha> I do have someone from the Oregon LoCo though
<albrigha> :)
 * bkerensa has feedback if needed
<greg-g> bkerensa: please share, if other than your wiki testimonial (thanks for that!)
<Pendulum> albrigha: your forum and LP answers involvement seems to not be so recent, is there a reason you're applying now?
<bkerensa> greg-g: I just wanted to add that due to some previous issues with the LoCo going dormant it would have been hard for albrigha to participate for some period of time although I do see him engaging via our social networks and I'm hoping when he is able he can make it to an event (his geographical location may pose a hurdle at this time)
<albrigha> Pendulum: yes, I had a wrist issue and wasn't as involved in the past year.  But I've gotten that fixed so it's much easier to be involved.  As for why now, I've missed working with Ubuntu/Linux and and as Ubuntu is a huge part of my life I want to take steps to be involved with the direction of ubuntu and to continue working in the community.
<greg-g> ah, glad your wrist issue is taking care of
<greg-g> taken
<albrigha> greg-g: thanks :)
<Pendulum> albrigha: glad to know things are better :)
<greg-g> #vote albrigha for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: albrigha for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<greg-g> +1 great track record and will love to see your future work
<meetingology> +1 great track record and will love to see your future work received from greg-g
<dinda> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<n0rman> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from n0rman
<cyphermox> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from cyphermox
<greg-g> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: albrigha for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<greg-g> congrats and welcome aboard, albrigha !
<albrigha> Thanks!
<greg-g> thanks to everyone for coming and congrats to all of the new members, again!
<cyphermox> I think you're doing great, but I would have preferred to see more. regardless, keep it up, and congrats :)
<TiMiDo> welcome aboard, AlanBell
<JoseGutierrez> Congrats albrigha !!!!!
<TiMiDo> welcome aboard, albrigha
<TiMiDo> ;)
<greg-g> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 20 01:16:35 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-20-00.00.moin.txt
<Pendulum> albrigha: congrats!
<JHOSMAN> Sorry my conection is refused!
<albrigha> cyphermox: I'll keep doing more!
<cyphermox> albrigha: I look forward to meeting you at some point in the future
<albrigha> Thanks everyone ^_^
<dinda> thanks everyone!
<cyphermox> thanks everyone
<Unit193> Congrats to you all!
<benonsoftware> Thanks everyone
<JoseeAntonioR> Congrats, everyone!
<albrigha> cyphermox: I look forward to meet you as well!
<JHOSMAN> =9
<TiMiDo> +1
<TiMiDo> :P
<TiMiDo> meeting time,
<TiMiDo> where at?
<TiMiDo> lol
<benonsoftware> cyphermox: Just wondering when will the LP page be updated?
<bkerensa> :)
<JHOSMAN> Bye!!!
<bkerensa> benonsoftware: When they update it but usually same day the rest of the perks take awhile and are script based
<benonsoftware> Ok
<TiMiDo> i have a question, i was speaking to tgreer, to get my Ubuntu cloacks, and he said, he need it a team owner so they can approve the cloaks, or now i wait until i get an email from anyone, ?
<Pendulum> TiMiDo: I'm working on adding people to the group now :)
<TiMiDo> oh Thank you Pendulum
<Myrtti> after she's done you can pop in #ubuntu-irc and ask
<Myrtti> and on that I call it a night as well.
<Myrtti> almost 4am, jikes
<TiMiDo> have a good night, Myrtti
<mlinscott> #gslug
<mlinscott> oops
<benonsoftware> Pendulum: What will we do in 2 years when our memberships expire?
<pangolin> benonsoftware: you will receive an email asking you if you want to continue being a member and will need to click the button on the LP link that will be provided.
<benonsoftware> Ok, thanks
<pangolin> I believe.
<Pendulum> that's correct
<Pendulum> it will prompt you to renew yourself
<benonsoftware> Thanks
<olli> hi there
 * pitti rings the release meeting bell
<pitti> hello everyone
<apw> o/
 * stgraber waves
 * pitti is a Kate impostor today
<pitti> although I realize that my hair isn't blond enough
<jibel> hi o/
 * arosales hello
<arosales> o/
<ogra_> moop
<pitti> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 20 16:01:31 2012 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pitti> [TOPIC] Release general overview - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - pitti
<pitti> Agenda can be found:
<pitti> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-01-20
<pitti> Individual team status links were/will be added to it from:
<pitti> #link
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/thread.html
<pitti> Schedule is at:
<pitti> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<pitti> #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/
<pitti> Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<pitti> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<pitti> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing,
<pitti> should be assigned to specific teams, so they can be found.
<pitti> .
<pitti> Upcoming Dates:
<pitti> â¢ 2012/01/19 - 10.04.4 Freeze
<pitti> â¢ 2012/02/02 - Alpha 2
<pitti> â¢ 2012/02/16 - Feature Freeze
<pitti> â¢ 2012/02/16 - 10.04.4
<pitti> ***WORKITEMS:***   Lots of progress this week, but we're still over the
<pitti> trend line for some teams.   Please review to see and mark what no
<pitti> longer looks possible this release.
<pitti> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/
<pitti> also, please note how the total number of items keeps growing up
<pitti> Note: There are now  2721 up from 2541 last week, originally 2084 on
<pitti> 2011/11/25), so figuring out now what is NOT going to happen in the next
<pitti> 5 weeks, and indicating blocked and postponed, would be much
<pitti> appreciated.
<pitti> Kate started following up with some individual and teams, and will be
<pitti> following up with the others next week.
<pitti> Questions?
<pitti> ..
<cjwatson> While growth in WI count isn't ideal, I think it's preferable to apparent lack of progress due to insufficiently-granular items
<pitti> yes, if it's splitting existing work into smaller pieces; but at least in desktop we also got some entirely new stuff
<pitti> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris or brendand
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris or brendand
<cjwatson> ah, OK - ours has pretty much just been splitting
<mlegris> hi all!
<pitti> I didn't see a status mail from cert, so it's not on the wiki page
<mlegris> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000730.html
<mlegris> (wrong date in email subject)
<mlegris> no major issues from our weekly testing
<pitti> thanks, wiki page updated
<pitti> (for ogra as well)
<mlegris> ..
<pitti> questions?
<ogra_> hmm ?
<ogra_> oh, i was just late, sent it at 16:58, sorry for that
<pitti> ogra_: I mean your report
<pitti> [TOPIC] QA team update -  jibel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel
 * ogra_ sees it in the archive
<jibel> Team status https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000742.html
<Riddell> ogra_: he's thanking you for it, it's all good
<jibel> image status and bugs found from our daily testing are listed in the report.
<pitti> ogra_: I mean I added your report to the meeting wiki page, too
<ogra_> ah, k, sorry, was distracted a bit ...
<ogra_> ..
<pitti> jibel: thanks, looks like good stable+1 fodder for the next weeks to fix upgrades
<pitti> any questions for QA?
<pitti> [TOPIC] Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
<jibel> Boot speed shows regression starting from 2012-01-18, it's worth an expert to have a look.
<jibel> pitti, ^
<pitti> whoops, sorry
<jibel> ..
<jdstrand> hi
<dbarth> jibel: anything in the desktop time budget?
<dbarth> (ie unity related)
<jdstrand> I here in place of mdeslaur today (who is off)
<jibel> dbarth, no yet.
<jdstrand> s/I/I'm/
<pitti> jibel: will have a look on Monday
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000728.html for teh security report
<cjwatson> Yeah, I started trying to dig into upgrade bugs late this week
<pitti> any questions for jdstrand?
<jdstrand> I was waiting for the other questions to stop :)
<jdstrand> but, yes, that mailing list entry pretty much sums it up. As a team, focused a lot on updates after the rally this week, but did continue to work on some work items.
<jdstrand> a bunch of work items should be coming to completion within the next week or two
<jdstrand> Not much else to report.
<jdstrand> ..
<pitti> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
<apw> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000727.html
<apw> Everything should have been covered in the email.  Any questions?
<apw> ..
<pitti> thanks apw
<pitti> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000737.html
<pitti> any questions?
<ScottK> cjwatson: Was my koffice reply sufficient?
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000737.html
<cjwatson> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> We made good progress at the rally, and the trend line is at the right angle since then, but we still have a backlog to clear up.  (That said, there are quite a few "foreign" items in there; we're below the line for team items.)
<cjwatson> Nothing else beyond the mail above.
<cjwatson> ScottK: Yes, that seems fine, thanks - just wanted to make sure it wasn't drifting
<cjwatson> ..
<ScottK> Great.
<pitti> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - arosales
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - arosales
<arosales> Hello
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000745.html
<arosales> The team continued to make good progress on the CI automation testing as well as defining the hardware provisioning specification.  We also have a few openstack bugs we are working on.
<Daviey> There are some 'NEW' Work Items.. There were some incorrect spacing in the whiteboard, causing them not to be parsed.  I have defered some other WI's this week.
<Daviey> Thanks
 * Daviey goes home.
<arosales> . . .
<arosales> Any questions?
<pitti> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
 * ogra_ waves
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000747.html
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000747.html
<ogra_> nothing to add beyond :
<ScottK> ogra_: Are you aware of the qtwebkit-source problem we're having?
<ScottK> (fails at link time due to out of memory)
<ogra_> many thanks to dbarth and the DX team as well as rsalveti and the GFX team in linaro for making unity GLES happen after 1,5years now
<ogra_> ..
<dbarth> ahem :/
<Riddell> infinity is aware of qtwebkit-source
<ogra_> ScottK, yeap, saw that, someone will look at it
<ogra_> dbarth, that wasnt critics, but a praise ... no " :/ " needed :)
<ogra_> ..
<dbarth> ogra_: nw
<slangasek> I was puzzled by the comment on list that qt 4.8 needs newer kernel
<cjwatson> ScottK: we're getting new kernels for memory pressure problems, I think
<cjwatson> (on buildds)
<ogra_> should already be there now
<ScottK> That's my understanding.  Do we have a timeline for it?
<slangasek> because I understood that had already been fixed on the pandas at least
<ogra_> it had
<cjwatson> ah, well, that I'm not sure of
<slangasek> and that the other machines were In Progress
<ogra_> but they werent fully through the SRU process
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> could some buildd admin force it to build on a panda, to be sure?
<ScottK> Sounds like a good idea.
<ScottK> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qtwebkit-source/2.2.1-1ubuntu1/+build/3096697 is the build.
<ogra_> babbages have the fix too now ...
<pitti> ScottK: ping me if you need that over the European daytime, I'm happy to do buildd jiggling
<pitti> kitalpha does sound like a new one, though
<ScottK> pitti: Could you do it  ~now (after the meeting)?
<slangasek> pitti: the panda buildds all have 'panda' in their name now, courtesy of lamont
<pitti> ScottK: will ping you in #u-devel
<ScottK> Thanks.
<pitti> anything else for ARM?
<slangasek> er, confusion; I just looked and qt4-x11 4:4.8.0-1ubuntu1 is listed as built everywhere?
<slangasek> oh, qtwebkit-source, o,k
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> ..
<pitti> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo or rsalveti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro team Q&A - fabo or rsalveti
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000738.html
<fabo> in addition, we started to define usb host, bt, wifi basic testing
<fabo> it will be done with lava
<fabo> ..
<pitti> any questions for Linaro?
<pitti> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
<pitti> no report from U1 on the list yet
<pitti> and doesn't seem online, so skipping I guess
<pitti> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
 * pitti grabs the other hat
<pitti> report is at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000734.html
<pitti> bug 916726 got fixed since then
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916726 in libreoffice (Ubuntu Precise) "Drop extra Java dependencies from 3.5.0~beta2-2ubuntu3" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916726
<pitti> otherwise, any questions?
<pitti> ..
<ScottK> pitti: Do the DNS changes automatically affect all flavors or just Ubuntu?
<pitti> I think all flavours, it's NM and below
<ScottK> Sounds like.  Thanks.
<pitti> [TOPIC] Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
<dbarth> hi
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000739.html
<dbarth> the report says it all: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> any questions?
<dbarth> i think i have all of the release team bug now milestoned and tracked; if any are left unattended, please ping me
<dbarth> and i'm looking into the boot time figures atm
<dbarth> ..
<pitti> [TOPIC] Unity Services and Settings Team  Q&A - olli
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Unity Services and Settings Team  Q&A - olli
<olli> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000746.html
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000746.html
<olli> everything is covered there
<olli> any questions
<pitti> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000741.html
<pitti> any questions for Riddell ?
<pitti> do you know if anyone is working on bug 901638?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901638 in unixodbc (Ubuntu Precise) "Remove iodbc2 (causes upgrade failure from Oneiric to Precise)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901638
<slangasek> I have it in my queue :P
<pitti> i. e. making soprano work with unixodbc?
<pitti> seems I didn't get too far back then :(
<slangasek> it's a pretty deep issue
<pitti> yeah, indeed
<pitti> other questions?
<pitti> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
 * stgraber waves
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000731.html
<pitti> any questions?
<stgraber> I just confirmed this morning that Edubuntu now upgrades fine again (11.10 to 12.04)
<stgraber> ..
<pitti> do you still have that auto-upgrader tester running?
<stgraber> yep, it's pushing daily results for all flavours to the ISO tracker
<pitti> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick or charlie-tca
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick or charlie-tca
<Riddell> (sorry we all missed kubuntu slot but nothing else to add from me)
<stgraber> need to refresh the VM images though, it's taking over 2 hours per test now due to the amount of updates to install (using libeatmydata would be nice too)
<madnick> hi
<stgraber> ..
<pitti> (no report on the list)
<madnick> Well, as far as I know, there is nothing going on
<madnick> this last week
<pitti> so, no news == no major breakage? :-)
<madnick> And sorry for the missing report, i was celebrating my birthday :)
<madnick> ..
<pitti> madnick: oh, happy birthday!
<pitti> any questions for Xubuntu?
<pitti> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
<scott-work>  * status - http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html  * blueprint - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000740.html
<scott-work> we made a lot of progress during the last two week
<scott-work> i will also scrub the work items to make appropriate ones at either blocked or postoned as requested
<scott-work> i want to thank cjwatson for his time and efforts to move us to a live-dvd
<scott-work> ..
<pitti> scott-work: do you plan to already release a live DVD for alpha-2? that sounds like it needs some coordination with ~u-release to build them instead of the alternates?
<pitti> oh, it's done? great
<pitti> (don't se it yet on cdimage, that's why I asked)
<scott-work> colin is working towards it, not completed yet
<scott-work> ..
<pitti> any questions for scott-work?
<pitti> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000743.html
<gilir> hi :)
<gilir> thanks, nothing to add
<gilir> ..
<pitti> thanks, any questions?
<pitti> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
<tumbleweed> hi
<tumbleweed> nothing I can think of
<tumbleweed> (except that someone is thinking of doing an opencv transitino, he mailed the list)
<tumbleweed> ..
<pitti> any questions?
<pitti> [TOPIC] 10.04.4
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: 10.04.4
<pitti> We froze lucid-proposed yesterday, and today some fixes were still accepted which were targetted to 10.04.4:
<pitti> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=30510
<pitti> I cleaned up that list this morning, looks reasonably well now. We mainly need verification now.
<pitti> bug 810068 is the only outstanding "High" one, but I think cjwatson is handling this?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 810068 in partman-iscsi (Ubuntu Natty) "kickstart iscsi option broken" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/810068
<pitti> the other three medium ones don't seem like a huge blocker to me, but if someone wants to pick them up, now is the time :)
<pitti> note that we have daily lucid CDs built now
<pitti> I'm just not sure that they use -proposed; cjwatson, do they? the cronjob doesn't have a magic flag? or is that set somewhere else?
<cjwatson> they're using -proposed, yes
<cjwatson> it's done in cdimage and debian-cd
<ScottK> tumbleweed: (sorry, missed MOTU) - http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/01/msg00560.html seems like something worth looking into.
<pitti> ScottK: indeed, this mainly looks like an exercise in dropping build deps or removing packages?
<stgraber> pitti: thinking about it for LTSP, I'd rather fix that cleanly in 12.04 and not try to mess with the udeb in 10.04.4. This particular script tends to break in interesting ways every time I touch it so I'd rather stick with known issues (a race condition so rarely met that the only report I got of it was from Patrick Wright)
<tumbleweed> ScottK: oh, yes, I saw that this morning
<ScottK> pitti: Yes.
<pitti> stgraber: yes, I agree; lucid survived until now with that, after all
<tumbleweed> seems tjaalton is already on it
<pitti> stgraber: (dropped milestone)
<stgraber> pitti: thanks
<pitti> anything else for 10.04.4?
<pitti> anything which we really need to squeeze in which isn't on above list/
<pitti> ?
<pitti> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments,  questions?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business, comments,  questions?
<pitti> so, thanks everyone, and enjoy the weekend!
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 20 16:48:13 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-20-16.01.moin.txt
<ogra_> yay
<scott-work> thank you pitti
<ogra_> thanks pitti
<madnick> thanks
<stgraber> thanks
<jibel> thanks pitti
<arosales> thanks pitti
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-21
<Mkays|> So UG meeting starts now according to fridge calendar.
<Mkays|> Or not. I am looking at sunday :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-22
<astraljava> Hiya. We're giving it 5, the chair is running late a bit.
<holstein> ubuntustudio contributors meeting participants?
<astraljava> o/
<craigs63> here
<holstein> cool... lemme find a few links...
<holstein> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jan 22 17:04:36 2012 UTC.  The chair is holstein. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bkerensa> hi
<holstein> for the record... give one more o/ to say you are here since i started the bot
<astraljava> o/
<craigs63> o/
<ailo> o/
<holstein> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2012January22
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2012January22
<holstein> is ScottL coming?
<holstein> anyways.. he is emailing about that first item there
<astraljava> Haven't heard of him in a while.
<holstein> who is "jon" ?
<holstein> #topic old business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: old business
<astraljava> He has been on the channel a few times.
<holstein> "Jon email list for separate meeting for work flows discussion: INPROGRESS"
<holstein> not sure about where that is... but its logged ^^
<holstein> #topic Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later
<astraljava> Yeah, I sent an email regarding that a while back.
<holstein> astraljava: i think we are just starting on the every-other-week plan correct?
<holstein> cool... so i think that is OK as-is for now
<astraljava> holstein: True. For formal meetings, every other week on here.
<astraljava> Informal in between, on our own channel.
<astraljava> No, the alternating was about different times of the day/week.
<holstein> i like it.. and we'll see how effective it becomes
<holstein> lets move on then to the LTS discussion
<holstein> #topic LTS proposal
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LTS proposal
<holstein> astraljava: do you know where we are on that?
<holstein> where is xubuntu on that?
<astraljava> Xubuntu was accepted according to the example proposal I linked to.
<astraljava> We were supposed to talk about it here.
<holstein> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001160.html
<holstein> astraljava: you want to take that on right now? and talk us through it?
<astraljava> No, I don't, since we're missing our leader.
<astraljava> I propose we postpone it for later.
<holstein> i think theres time for that as well... lets move on then
<holstein> #topic Blueprints statuses
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprints statuses
<holstein> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
<holstein> again, i think ScottL is mostly the one to comment here, but i think he said we were making good progress
<holstein> astraljava: do you remember when he said we would have a LIVE image?
<astraljava> There's no ETA as far as I know.
<astraljava> But it's moving on rapidly.
<holstein> either way, those are the links to the blueprints and that is logged... moving on...
<holstein> #topic mudita24 version debate
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: mudita24 version debate
<holstein> ailo: were you envolved with this?
<astraljava> Yeah, I added that just recently.
<ailo> nope
<astraljava> There's a newer version in debian sid now.
<holstein> http://packages.debian.org/sid/mudita24
<holstein> http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/mudita24
<holstein> astraljava: can we bring it in?
<astraljava> I have this from the debian maintainer:
<astraljava> Major changes follow:
<astraljava> * Applied patch by James Morris to modernize and remove some deprecated code. * Remove the support for very old GTK+ versions. * Moved to cmake build system. * Fixed wrong alsactl location. Now cmake looks for alsactl. Override
<astraljava> with environment variable ALSACTL_PROG. * Added usage info. * Fixed serious fatal X error: height too big.
<astraljava> Looks like there are big changes. I'm a bit worried they are too big.
<astraljava> Does the team think we can test this enough so that we could sync it?
<astraljava> There's still time until Feature Freeze.
<astraljava> ..
<holstein> astraljava: i cant... i dont have the hardware
<ailo> Me and Scott have them
<astraljava> I do, but I don't do so much of the stuff that's on work flows.
<astraljava> ailo: Do you think you could test it? I could file the sync request, then.
<ailo> Install the sid package and test it? Sure
<holstein> if we can get it tested, i say go for it... i know folks have that hardware, and i would like the LTS to be supportive of it
<len> Sorry, which hw?
<astraljava> True. So, make an action for ailo to test it, and we should have a review on the next meeting. Ok?
<astraljava> len: ICE1712 chip
<len> I have that too.
<astraljava> len: Could you provide testing, too+
<len> Of what sw?
<holstein> #action ailo to test newer mudita24 version for inclusion
<meetingology> ACTION: ailo to test newer mudita24 version for inclusion
<astraljava> mudita24
<len> OK
<astraljava> Thanks!
<astraljava> ..
<holstein> thats all i have on the official list... open items?
<holstein> any other business?
<holstein> #topic other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: other business
<astraljava> Nothing from me.
<holstein> i want to say thanks to len for such great testing!
<holstein> where are we on UI? on look and feel?
<len> sorry im late
<holstein> wallpaper? that kind of thing...
<holstein> len: you're right on time :)
<holstein> len: if you want to officially log some of the things you are commenting on through the list, go for it
<len> as in bug?
<holstein> len: just so its in the minutes
<len> I just files a kernel bug for panic on sd card insert
<len> the extra packages are acting up again but should be fixed by now.
<holstein> len: were you working on the audio group issue?
<holstein> disussing it?
<len> Not really. The installer gets it nobody else does.
<astraljava> holstein: Sorry, I actually took an action on it.
<len> The default for a new user is custom which comes with no perms, instead of desktop
<holstein> astraljava: the audio group?
<astraljava> Yeah. We talked about it with ailo, and it seems the user created by the installer should be in audio group by default.
<holstein> astraljava: and the live user too?
<astraljava> I don't know, but maybe.
<holstein> i could argure audio and video, though i know the security risks are valid
<astraljava> Put an action of it for me, please.
<ailo> It would kind of be pointless to have a live user if it didn't belong to audio group
<holstein> #action astraljava review and report on user groups (audio, video) and what we need for our installer, and live iso
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava review and report on user groups (audio, video) and what we need for our installer, and live iso
<astraljava> Thanks.
<holstein> anything else?
<len> there is a link missing in the iso too
<len> there is no X login without
<ailo> I'm contacting Debian multimedia team to discuss the possibility to add audio group administration as a part of installing jackd. It's not the neatest way perhaps, but if it works, it would make things easier
<holstein> len: that sounds important... elaborate
<holstein> though, im sure our iso is far from complete at this stage..
<len> /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop is missing. it should be a link to the other file that is in the same directory
<holstein> len: would you mind to keep that on your radar, and check when we get an iso?
<len> Pretty hard not to :-)
<holstein> #action len check on the missing /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop as it develops
<meetingology> ACTION: len check on the missing /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop as it develops
<holstein> ailo: i like that... ill action you to report on it?
<holstein> #action ailo report on Debian multimedia team contat RE: audio group and jackd installation
<meetingology> ACTION: ailo report on Debian multimedia team contat RE: audio group and jackd installation
<holstein> anything else?
<holstein> #next meeting
<holstein> #topic next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: next meeting
<holstein> february 5th same time, same channel!
<holstein> i cannon chair then... you want me to say its you astraljava ? and you can hand it out as needed
<holstein> cannot*
<astraljava> Yeah that works.
<holstein> #action astraljava to chair next meeting or make arrangments for it to be chaired
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to chair next meeting or make arrangments for it to be chaired
<holstein> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Jan 22 17:39:48 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-22-17.04.moin.txt
<holstein> thanks len astraljava ailo craigs63 !
<astraljava> Thanks Mike for chairing! Others for participating!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-14
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> sorry we are a bit late
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<sarnold> hello
 * sbeattie waves
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 14 18:25:46 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to the following individuals who provided security for Ubuntu:
<jdstrand> Stefan Bader (smb) provided debdiffs for oneiric-quantal for xen
<jdstrand> Chad Miller (chad) for getting chromium-browser up to 23.0.1271.97 for lucid-quantal
<jdstrand> Benjamin Drung (bdrung) provided an update for precise and quantal for vlc (LP: #1084054)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084054 in vlc (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Denial of service via crafted PNG file" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084054
<jdstrand> Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) provided a debdiff for precise for xymon (LP: #1092412)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1092412 in xymon (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Xymon Multiple XSS" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1092412
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage today
<jdstrand> rather, this week
<jdstrand> I planned to get nss out last week, but was unable. I need to do new upstream releases for nss and nspr for this update, and I spent last week preparing those
<jdstrand> that should go out today or tomorrow
<jdstrand> chromium-browser (as mentioned) is now at 23.0.1271.97 for the stable releases, but upstream releases 24 last week, so I'll be sponsoring/testing that as well
<mdeslaur> Â±o/
<mdeslaur> argh
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> I'm going to look at the recent java issue some more
<jdstrand> and I need to patch pilot
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I've just released a couple of security updates, and will pick some more off the list
<mdeslaur> and that's pretty much it. sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm again an apparmor monkey this week
<sbeattie> My primary focus is on getting the display manager prototype going
<sbeattie> I'm not sure where jjohansen is on getting the alpha out the door, but may pitch in to help on that after getting 2.8.1 out last week.
<sbeattie> I'll also poke at the random things that have popped up on the list.
<sbeattie> that's it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> Similar to last week. Embargoed item and apparmor policy kernel interface.
<tyhicks> That's it for me. Back to you, jdstrand
<jdstrand> actually, we skipped sarnold
<jdstrand> sarnold: you're up
<mdeslaur> who's sarnold?
<tyhicks> sorry, sarnold :)
<mdeslaur> :)
<sarnold> I'm in happy place this week, hoping to make forward progress on dnsmasq update, now using mdeslaur's suggestion for VM with two NICs, will combine with jdstrand's suggestion to use two VMs rather than do the testing via my host...
<sarnold> .. but if I have more trouble reproducing the reporter's situation, I'll be leaning towards just regression testing.
<mdeslaur> sarnold: sounds reasonable
<sarnold> (I'm thinking end-of-the-day today as the decision point...)
<sarnold> jdstrand: back to you
<mdeslaur> sarnold: you can get one of us to review your changes too, as a sanity check/second opinion since it affects an important package
<sarnold> mdeslaur: thanks :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> Normally we provide a list of 5 packages. However, this week I'd like to ask for help on updating the recent raills vulnerabilities:
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/2013/CVE-2013-0156.html
<ubottu> active_support/core_ext/hash/conversions.rb in Ruby on Rails before 2.3.15, 3.0.x before 3.0.19, 3.1.x before 3.1.10, and 3.2.x before 3.2.11 does not properly restrict casts of string values, which allows remote attackers to conduct object-injection attacks and execute arbitrary code, or cause a denial of service (memory and CPU consumption) involving nested XML entity referen... (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2013-0156)
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/2013/CVE-2013-0155.html
<ubottu> Ruby on Rails 3.0.x before 3.0.19, 3.1.x before 3.1.10, and 3.2.x before 3.2.11 does not properly consider differences in parameter handling between the Active Record component and the JSON implementation, which allows remote attackers to bypass intended database-query restrictions and perform NULL checks or trigger missing WHERE clauses via a crafted request, as demonstrated b... (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2013-0155)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 14 18:43:36 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-14-18.25.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-14-18.25.html
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sbeattie> thanks jdstrand
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-15
<Daviey> o/
<SergioMeneses> Daviey, \o
<arosales> Hello
<Daviey> anyone else?
<arosales> looks like rbasak joined the party :-)
<Daviey> Ursinha, shall we?
<Ursinha> Daviey, sure
 * Ursinha looks desperately for the links
<arosales> Ursinha: one sec
<arosales> I think jimbaker is on the list to drive
 * arosales giving him a ping
<Daviey> arosales: He is slacking off
<Ursinha> okay, I found the links :)
<Ursinha> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 15 16:04:42 2013 UTC.  The chair is Ursinha. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> Ursinha: ya, sorry are you available to chair
<arosales> thank you :-)
<Ursinha> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Ursinha> arosales, is the wiki page updated?
<arosales> I don't think m_3 updated from the last meeting minutes . . .
<arosales> :-(
 * Ursinha looks for the minutes
<arosales> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<arosales> Daviey: is deprecating http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server in progress?
<Daviey> no
<arosales> sorry, I got that wrong
<arosales> we are moving to http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<Daviey> nothat is done
<arosales> is deprecate http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html done?
<Daviey> yes
<arosales> thanks
<arosales> IRC commands were updated
 * arosales is still looking into status tracker is not picking up servercloud area
<Ursinha> arosales, okay, I thought that page was outdated, was looking for the logs
<arosales> #action arosales to investigate why status tracker is not picking up all servercloud area BPs
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales to investigate why status tracker is not picking up all servercloud area BPs
<arosales> Ursinha: it is a little behind, sorry about that
<arosales> I was just going to run through those real quick as I had some context
<Ursinha> sure, go ahead :)
<arosales> jamespage, smoser: BP approval look good?
<smoser> i think we should call that shipped. if you have a BP that is not approved at this point, please raise that with myself, Daviey or james_w
<smoser> or even jamespage
<smoser> (sorry james_w)
<arosales> thanks smoser
<arosales> Ursinha: all yours. I think that covers the action items from last week.
<Ursinha> all right, moving on
<Ursinha> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Raring Development
<Ursinha> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Ursinha> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<Ursinha> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html
<Ursinha> all links, I guess
<Daviey> ^ 404
<Ursinha> hm, must fix wiki link
<Ursinha> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html
<arosales> ah needs raring
<Ursinha> ah, obvious :)
<Ursinha> this last link is okay, go ahead :)
 * arosales looking at essentials that are in the red
<arosales> zul: you feel ok with https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-grizzly
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-seeded-qa-workflow needs to be re-scoped, most likely
<zul> arosales: yep
<Daviey> arosales: zul isn't here right now.. That blueprint looks in a worse state than it is.  The progress is actually good
<Daviey> oh, zul is here
<arosales> zul: ok, thanks
<zul> Daviey: barely
 * zul is on medication
<arosales> I think jamespage is driving https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-seeded-qa-workflow correct?
<Daviey> #ACTION zul, go and rest
<meetingology> ACTION: zul, go and rest
<arosales> :-) lol
<Daviey> arosales: he was.. i think we need to re-asses
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-juju-charm-testing is behiind
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-mysql <-- roaksoax, i believe you are taking a hunk of that.. can you update the BP please
<arosales> I'll follow up with jim baker
<Daviey> smoser: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-ubuntu-images might want a little love, can you take a gander at that at somepoint?
 * roaksoax looks
<smoser> yes, Daviey
<Daviey> Thanks
<roaksoax> Daviey: nope not taking any WI of mysql BP
<roaksoax> the ha stuff is in the HA BP
<Daviey> Infact, i have a feeling that many (myself included) are behind on keeping the NBP status updated.. We should all take a check before next meeting
<Daviey> #ACTION All, check status of assigned Work Items and refresh if necessary
<meetingology> ACTION: All, check status of assigned Work Items and refresh if necessary
<arosales> +1
<Daviey> roaksoax: Hmm, you made a mysql drbd charm?
<roaksoax> Daviey: i modified the charm to support DRBD
<Daviey> so, shal we mark that BP dead.. and track in your HA BP?
<roaksoax> Daviey: yeah i'm tracking HA for MySQL in the HA BP
<Daviey> (I assume clint won't work on that now?)
<Daviey> ok, lets kill it for now
<Daviey> thanks
<Daviey> ..
<Daviey> I think we are good to move on?
<Ursinha> Daviey, are you reviewing bugs as well?
<Daviey> Ursinha: I think you will do a better job than me ;)
<Ursinha> Daviey, hehe, I'd have to take a better look, I'll poke you later if I find something for you :)
<Daviey> wilco!
<Ursinha> Daviey, but I'd take a look at the critical bugs (we have three) and see if anything can be done there
<Daviey> i'm afraid i need to pop out for 15 mins, another engagement..
<Ursinha> I'll move on
<Ursinha> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Ursinha> any events coming soon?
<Daviey> FOSDEM 2nd/3rd Feb, Brussels - Belgium
<arosales> Scale 11x is end of Feb
<Daviey> attending: Myself, jamespage & rbasak
<Ursinha> right
<arosales> Ursinha: that seems to be it atm
<Ursinha> okay
<Ursinha> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Ursinha> hggdh, olÃ¡ :)
<hggdh> Ursinha: alo
<hggdh> anything for us from the server team?
<Ursinha> Daviey, arosales, ^
<arosales> hggdh: nothing from me
<hggdh> from the daily testing, raring-server-ec2 is yellow all over with some red dots :-)
<hggdh> so it looks like flu with petechiae
<arosales> hggdh: :-)
<Ursinha> hehe
<hggdh> apart from that, life is good
<hggdh> ..
<Ursinha> I'll move on then
<Ursinha> thanks hggdh
<Ursinha> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<Ursinha> smb isn't here, it seems
<Ursinha> do we have anything for him?
<Ursinha> I'll take that as a no
<Ursinha> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report. Any questions for me?
<Ursinha> guess not :) thanks rbasak
<Ursinha> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<Ursinha> anything else you feel like discussing?
<Ursinha> okay
<Ursinha> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<Ursinha> next meeting will be on Tuesday, Jan 22th at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<arosales> Ursinha: thanks for chairing
<arosales> :-)
<Ursinha> and according to the wiki page, rbasak is the next chair
<Ursinha> cheers everyone!
<Ursinha> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 15 16:34:39 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-15-16.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-15-16.04.html
<roaksoax> y/win close
<m_3> arosales: my bad... I was just cutting/pasting from the meeting guide... closed it at the end of the meeting
<Daviey> thanks Ursinha
<arosales> m_3: fyi https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Team_policy gives instructions on actions post meeting
<Ursinha> Daviey, it was my pleasure :)
<arosales> I think we all in server need a refresher on those steps, I am guilty too
<m_3> ack
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 15 17:01:15 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<arges> o/
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<herton> o/
<henrix> o/
<rtg> o/
<sconklin> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> R/master: still working on multiplatform support: omap3/4 boots, i'm working on adding imx6 support now
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> I'll post the updates for ogasawara
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<jsalisbury> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 9 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 4 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||             || hardware-r-arm-kernel-maintenance     || 2 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-misc                || 4 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||             || foundations-r-x32-planning            || 2 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||             || desktop-r-clean-old-kernels           || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || ogasawara   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 2 work items ||
<jsalisbury> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || sconklin    || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      || 3 work items ||
<jsalisbury> || rtg         || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> We have rebased the Raring kernel to the latest v3.8-rc3 upstream
<jsalisbury> kernel and uploaded last week.  Please test and let us know your
<jsalisbury> results.
<jsalisbury> I also want to note that the 12.04.2 point release date has been moved
<jsalisbury> out by 2 weeks to Thurs Feb 14:
<jsalisbury> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2013-January/001003.html
<jsalisbury> Important upcoming dates:
<jsalisbury>  * Raring:
<jsalisbury>   * Fri Jan 18 - 13.04 Month 3 Milestone (3 days)
<jsalisbury>   * Mon Feb 18 - 13.04 Month 4 Milestone (~5 weeks)
<jsalisbury>  * Precise:
<jsalisbury>   * Thu Feb 14 - 12.04.2 Release (~4 weeks)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<henrix> Currently we have 34 CVEs on our radar, with 0 CVEs added and 3 CVEs retired this week.
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (January 08):
<henrix>  * Hardy - Nothing in this cycle
<henrix>  * Lucid - In -updates; 1 CVE; (2 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In -updates; 2 CVEs; 4 upstream stable release(s); (78 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Testing; 3 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (104 commits)
<henrix>  * Quantal - In Testing; 3 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (254 commits)
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> ..
<bjf> The kernel SRU cadence cycle that was to start this week has been canceled. The kernels in -proposed will be used for the 12.04.2 release.
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 15 17:05:51 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-15-17.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-15-17.01.html
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<sconklin> thanks
<czajkowski> huats: itnet7 SergioMeneses ping
<huats> czajkowski: Hello dear
<czajkowski> just waiting on the others to start
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, hey hey
<czajkowski> anyone seen effie?
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, no I dont
<czajkowski> :/
<czajkowski> lets start in case itnet7 is being held up at work.
<SergioMeneses> he is lost, I guess
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 15 21:04:15 2013 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* czajkowski changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: catch up wth the loco council
<czajkowski> so we don't have anything on our agenda
<czajkowski> but seeing as we're here lets just catch up
<SergioMeneses> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: we;re doing that team via bug no ?
<SergioMeneses> only the Ubuntu Iranian team, but they want to work on the bug
<SergioMeneses> yes czajkowski
<czajkowski> grand
* czajkowski changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Alternative word to - Approved - for loco teams
<czajkowski> so I've seen this come up on various blog posts in comments
<czajkowski> how people feel unmotivated due to them not being an Approved locoo and how really that word doesnt really help motvate people in getting more involved
<czajkowski> what I'd like to do is look at if there is an alternative and see if could be used
<czajkowski> sometimes words in english don't always translate so clearly in other languages
<SergioMeneses> sure, like free
<czajkowski> so I just want to see if this is possible and it also may not be. But if we don't discuss it then well we'll never know
<czajkowski> so some alternaives that kinda spring to mind are
<czajkowski> Sponsored loco - downsides would people may assume un approved locos would lose hosting, email etc as they are not sponsored, when they would be
<czajkowski> if anyone has any ideas please feel free to jump in
<SergioMeneses> I was thinking on "official" or "sponsored"
<czajkowski> I do like offical as that is a clear word and is less black and white
<BobJonkman2> Hi, I'm Bob Jonkman from the Canadian Team, which has recently lost its "approved" status.
<czajkowski> verified would also be a good one
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: hi there
<czajkowski> REviewed would also be good
<SergioMeneses> and Bhavani said Sponsored or Authorised
<czajkowski> so they are reviewed by the council
<czajkowski> Authroised sounds a bit severe imo, but again that's just me
<SergioMeneses> sure
<czajkowski> and I'm trying to find a way to sum what up approved is, but also make it sound less harsh
<czajkowski> huats: any ideas
<SergioMeneses> it is a strong word
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: any ideas there?
<BobJonkman2> loss of approval has caused some agitation amongst team members.  There is some feeling that we're not allowed to gather and have events focused on Ubuntu without approval.  A different word would be welcome
<huats> honnestly I have thought about that and approved is the best word for me
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: why do people feel that way, we have many teams who don't have the approved status and all have events
<czajkowski> huats: nods
<huats> I don't llike sponsored nor authorised (team can exists without being approved)
<czajkowski> Again, just like to point out, nothing is set in stone. it's jsut stuff I've seen and heard from many people and discussion is good.
<czajkowski> huats: nods
<BobJonkman2> It's the word, "Approved".  Without "approval" the sense is that activities are disapproved
<czajkowski> what I had in my head Loco teams ( unapproved) and reviewed loco teams (approved)
<czajkowski> taking away the unapproved and approved words
<czajkowski> so all teams are locoteams
<czajkowski> but one of which has been reviewed by the council
<czajkowski> so seems offical
<czajkowski> but also less harsh
<czajkowski> thoughts?
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: never heard that but interesting to think about
<BobJonkman2> The only direct benefit the Canadian Team sees to an "Approved" status is that Canonical provides branded Ubuntu disks (which are very welcome, and show proprietary software users that Ubuntu is not just some fly-by-night thing)
<czajkowski> nods
<huats> I might try the word 'official' but nothing besides that
<BobJonkman2> So perhaps a new word might focus on the benefits a Team receives.  "Sponsored" seems to work for that
<SergioMeneses> huats, +1
<SergioMeneses> BobJonkman2, huats czajkowski I think "official" would be better for this
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: how would differenciate between sponsored and unsponsored then
<SergioMeneses> imho
<huats> BobJonkman2: I think there is something on what we can try to work : some teams (I am aware of ubuntu-fr and ubuntu-de) have agreement with Canonical to be able to sell ubuntu branded goodies
<huats> I have been asked in the past by Jono to provide him that "agreement" so that he can work out on extending it to the rest of "approved" loco teams
<czajkowski> So my only concern then would be for "unapproved" locos how seeing the word Sponsored and Offical not beside their team
<BobJonkman2> From the Team members' perspective, the only thing we get out of "Approval" (or Sponsorship) is disks, which we give away gratis to anyone who is interested
<czajkowski> and also the word Offical means what ?
<czajkowski> any team not approved is not an offical team
<czajkowski> I susupect our inboxes would explode in outrage
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: makes a difference in conference packs also
<czajkowski> which many teams use more so than CDs tbh
<huats> this could be a real benefit to inform team that selling an ubuntu goodies without being approved is a copyright violation (and this is something people in FOSS are really looking carefully)
<pleia2> there are sometimes also publishers who use approved/non-approved as criteria for giving out books (the official ubuntu book only went to approved teams)
<czajkowski> also little known fact. Not many teams request the CD allocation each cycle
<pleia2> so it's not even just canonical
<BobJonkman2> czajkowski: True, but most members don't see the conference packs
<BobJonkman2> and since the decline of Ontario Linuxfest 2 years ago we haven't had need of a conference pack
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: my experience is the other way in fact
<czajkowski> but nice to hear another side of things
<czajkowski> well like I say nothing is fixed in stone, this is useful information and we'll follow up with a blog post and posting to the loco contacts list for wider discussion
<BobJonkman2> czajkowski: That most members don't see the conference pack may be because the Canadian Team covers a large geographic region.
<czajkowski> #action czajkowski write blog post and post to lococontacts on the subject
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski write blog post and post to lococontacts on the subject
<czajkowski> #topic Reviewed Large Geographic counteries for locoteam structure.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Reviewed Large Geographic counteries for locoteam structure.
<BobJonkman2> But smaller geographic regions would reduce active membership to a small handful in each region
<czajkowski> So BobJonkman2 this may be of interest to your team
<czajkowski> This has come up time and time again over the last year or so
<BobJonkman2> :) That's one of the reasons I'm here
<czajkowski> We have counteries such as India, Australia, Canada and Brazil
<czajkowski> all of which are massive georgaphic regions and it's not possible to be loco in that sense
<czajkowski> what we would propse is to break them up into state/provence like USA has done
<czajkowski> and there can be locos that way
<czajkowski> the reason we would like to do this now rather than in 1+years is to put in place measures to help teams from the ground up, but also helps plan and better allocate resouces when planning eg. Canonical DVDs
<BobJonkman2> For the Canadian Team, a good geographic area is maybe 100km across.  Even members in a provincial team would be separated by hundreds of km
<czajkowski> we've had this request in a number of times now from India and we've had to keep putting it off as we don't have the requirements in place.
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: the same goes for many countereies and even states in the USA
<czajkowski> what would also benefit is that the LTP would be able to have a section in the team page for a CITY contact
<czajkowski> this merge has been ready for a long time as it was discussed at least 2 UDSs ago
<BobJonkman2> +1 for City contacts
<czajkowski> Brazil loco have already broken their team up into sub teams a long time ago , this would just help for making it offical
<czajkowski> but if we don't set the standard up now, then it all becomes rather messy and has a knock on effect on other things, then such as Approved/offical locos
<czajkowski> what do folks think?
<SergioMeneses> but it doesnt work for all teams, russia said no
<BobJonkman2> In Canadian Team IRC meetings the consensus is that provincial teams won't make much difference to members; our team groups are city-based
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: right but in a provence you could have a city contact but not a city loco. this has been discussed at length at UDS and it was said no a city loco would not happen.
<BobJonkman2> If Canada is split into provincial teams most members still would not meet face-to-face, and we'd probably continue to meet in IRC on a Canada-wide basis anyway.
<BobJonkman2> So, splitting into provincial teams would create bureaucratic and administrative overhead that accomplishes nothing.
<czajkowski> or it could help the team
<czajkowski> the USA has a USA mentor team
<czajkowski> we should try and be more encouraing about new ideas
<czajkowski> rather than saying it wont work tbh
<BobJonkman2> We're working on our Canadian Re-approval application now, and it's been difficult to get members working together in anything larger than a City.  Most of the discussion takes place during the Kitchener and Waterloo Ubuntu Hours, face-to-face
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: you may not understand my point, break ing up teams into provence/state may encourage others to step up and if they dn't that's fine, but the standard is put in place
<czajkowski> and the option is there for the future
<BobJonkman2> True, more teams would mean more involvement from people as local contacts
<czajkowski> yes exactly
<czajkowski> as a person living the other side of canada may not be interested in an event in that area
<czajkowski> but may be interested in running on in their provence
<czajkowski> lets try adn support the idea and work out the logistics as we move forward
<czajkowski> this idea has hit roadblocks from people for the last 18 months
<SergioMeneses> anyways this is a sensible topic and we need a lot of ideas and commentaries
<czajkowski> yet we keep getting requests on a monthly basis for help in this area
<czajkowski> so I suspect we'll A) blog B) mail loco contacts and the teams we have in mind
<czajkowski> over the coming week(s)
<czajkowski> but it would be nice to get the ball rolling
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, I think is the best
<czajkowski> so for example there are 10 provences in Canada
<BobJonkman2> A team leader may run an event in her City, but as each province is about 1000km wide having provincial LoCos doesn't make much difference to having a country LoCo
<czajkowski> you could have 10 locoteams there rather than one large country one
<czajkowski> surely this makes more sense
<BobJonkman2> We have about 300 members, spread out over more than 5000 km; most of them are in Ontario. A Saskatchewan LoCo may have only one or two members...
<czajkowski> so my georgaphy of Canada is a bit sketchy apologies, but you'd have ubutu-ca-on for Ontario loco and a city contact on the LTP for Toronto
<czajkowski> if I have my provence and city right there
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: true but at least the two there would have the option and feel empowered to have a loco in their back ice skating rink! :)
 * czajkowski has a mate there, it's very cold!
<czajkowski> but they should have the option there to have their own loco
<czajkowski> equally they can mail the mothership the candian team for advice and help and that team could mentor people
<BobJonkman2> In Vancouver there is a city-based (unapproved) LoCo, that seems to work well for them.
<SergioMeneses> like a meta team
<BobJonkman2> But Toronto, with a population of about 5,000,000 doesn't even have Ubuntu Hours.
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: each team is so different on their events
<czajkowski> and like I said city contact was discussed at UDS and it was said No it would not happen, at best the LTP would be edited to allow for a city contact.
<SergioMeneses> BobJonkman2, but what can we do in that case?
<czajkowski> anwyasy this was just to give an idea of what the council are working on
<BobJonkman2> If Canada should be split into provincial LoCos we would like to keep the country-wide mailing list, IRC channel &c. because of the sparse membership.
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: thats not a problem this could be worked out n the future
<czajkowski> it's not being decided this second
<BobJonkman2> czajkowski: I understand.
<czajkowski> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<czajkowski> huats: SergioMeneses any other comments
<czajkowski> or AOB
<SergioMeneses> not from me
<huats> I don't know what means AOB
<huats> :)
<czajkowski> any other business
<czajkowski> :)
<huats> not else
<czajkowski> okie doke
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 15 21:43:17 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-15-21.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-15-21.04.html
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: huats thanks for coming
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: thanks for taking part
<SergioMeneses> thank to you czajkowski
<BobJonkman2> czajkowski: Thanx for having me!
<czajkowski> it's an open meeting BobJonkman2 anyone and everyone is welcome
<czajkowski> we dont always have such a free meeting
<czajkowski> it's nice :)
<BobJonkman2> If anything is to be done about LoCos, I'd like to know how to engage more people.  300 people in Ubuntu-ca out in an entire country is pretty abysmal.
<czajkowski> BobJonkman2: it's not really
<czajkowski> given peoples lives jobs and other stuff goig on
<czajkowski> *going on
<czajkowski> 300 is a lot still
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-16
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 16 16:01:58 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jodh> o/
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> bdmurray stokachu stgraber xnox jodh doko barry slangasek cjwatson ev ogra
<slangasek> bdmurray: you're on :)
<bdmurray> rolled out errors branch allowing for source package searching
<bdmurray> pushed errors branch fixing issue with width of the frequency bar
<bdmurray> pushed daisy branch creating a counter for release:src_package to facilitate regression detection
<bdmurray> discussion with evan regarding error tracker and phased updates
<bdmurray> updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/PhasedUpdates
<bdmurray> tested team view change to errors in canonistack
<bdmurray> submitted an RT to have webstats for errors.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> discovered, researched and reported bug 1098250 regarding suspendresume crashes
<ubottu> bug 1098250 in Apport "unable to send suspend resume crash from raring" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1098250
<bdmurray> investigation into inability to report distribution upgrade crashes from quantal to raring
<bdmurray> created a test case for bug 1077253 regarding apport
<bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader branch fixing bugs 1072828, 1068874, 1093697, 1098001, 1067542
<ubottu> bug 1077253 in apport (Ubuntu Quantal) "possible for ExecutableTimestamp to not be for the binary in ExecutablePath" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077253
<bdmurray> verification of Q SRU for aptdaemon bug 1060505
<ubottu> bug 1072828 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "[REGRESSION] release upgrader tool became untranslated" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1072828
<bdmurray> uploaded P,Q SRU for aptdaemon bug 1078544
<ubottu> bug 1067542 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "possible for some do-release-upgrade crashes to be unreportable" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1067542
<bdmurray> uploaded udev to R and a P SRU for bug 1099278
<bdmurray> resolved an issue with arsenal not completely removing bug tasks
<ubottu> bug 1093697 in Ubuntu Translations "check-new-release-gtk appears untranslated" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1093697
<ubottu> bug 1068874 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "does not need to enable apport" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068874
<ubottu> bug 1098001 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "DistUpgradeController calls apport with a source package as an argument" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1098001
<ubottu> bug 1060505 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Quantal) "Google Chrome is a "package of bad quality"" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1060505
<ubottu> bug 1078544 in aptdaemon (Debian) "python-aptdaemon: upgrading marks auto-installed packages as manual" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078544
<ubottu> bug 1099278 in udev (Ubuntu Precise) "Network devices with a MAC with prefix 2c:c2:60 should not be have a persistent rule" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1099278
<bdmurray> â done â
<stokachu_> - Working on a lot of internal SEG projects this month, nothing public facing to report this week. done.
<stgraber>  - Upstart (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements)
<stgraber>   - Working on the session socket code, going through reviews/fixes cycles now.
<stgraber>   - Poking at a libnih bug preventing the upstart-event-bridge from working as a user.
<stgraber>   - Talks on shutdown/reboot/logout sequence.
<stgraber>  - Container (BLUEPRINT: servercloud-r-lxc)
<stgraber>   - Code reviews.
<stgraber>   - LXC upstream now supports user namespaces.
<stgraber>   - Ported libcap to bionic, got LXC to build agsinst it.
<stgraber>   - Re-implemented utmpx.h within LXC when building with bionic.
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Tracked down a cups-browsed bug causing a lot of upstart job respawns when avahi isn't enabled.
<stgraber>   - Some follow-up on a weird biosdevname issue.
<stgraber>   - Upgraded to a 3.8 kernel, helped track down a regression on ThinkPad x230/t430, fix sent upstream by Seth.
<stgraber>   - Helped Serge track down my weird mount/loop device bug (loop devices aren't freeed under weird conditions).
<stgraber>   - Got some new monitors with fancy DisplayPort chaining, so I've been fixing a few gnome-control-center bugs and helping debug kernel bugs.
<stgraber>  - Networking (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-networking)
<stgraber>   - Some e-mails/bug activity on isc-dhcp-server-ldap not actually having LDAP support in 4.2.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Go through the isc-dhcp and resolvconf bugs.
<stgraber>   - Try to apply redhat's fiberchannel patchset to our isc-dhcp.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<xnox> * usb-creator-fastboot:
<xnox>  - made fastboot work to flash nexus7 images without sudo
<xnox>  - made usbcreator to pop-up when nexus7 is plugged in (in a branch)
<xnox>  - todo fastboot backend (reusing recipes from nexus7-installer)
<xnox> * lp:~xnox/upstart/user-log-dir
<xnox>  - user upstart logging, work in progress (some review comments to address)
<xnox> * patch pilot tuesday (report sent)
<xnox> * unbreak devscripts, usb-creator
<xnox> * upload ubiquity and minor merges (dmraid, pyxdg)
<xnox> * discussed with server team that we want to keep clustered lvm
<xnox>   support (dropped in debian)
<xnox> ..
<jodh> - Blueprint:
<jodh>   - Upstart setenv+getenv MP raised. Working on '--global' option. Further
<jodh>     feedback appreciated:
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/setenv+getenv/+merge/142939
<jodh>   - Reviewed lp:~xnox/upstart/user-log-dir.
<jodh>   - Reviewed lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-session-socket.
<jodh>   - Added Shutdown details to Enhanced Sessions Spec - awaiting feedback:
<jodh>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions#Shutdown_Details
<jodh>   - Started work on preliminary shutdown code.
<jodh> - SRU:
<jodh>   - Investigating ARM build failure for SRU bug 980917.
<ubottu> bug 980917 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "Failed to create pty - disabling logging for job [SRU]" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980917
<jodh> - Other:
<jodh>   - Investigating a customer issue.
<jodh>   - Investigated ureadahead bug 1085766
<jodh>   - Fixed bug 1096531 - awaiting feedback:
<ubottu> bug 1085766 in ureadahead (Ubuntu) "/var/log/upstart/ureadahead.log contains garbage" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1085766
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1096531/+merge/143314
<ubottu> bug 1096531 in upstart (Ubuntu) "After touch /forcefsck and reboot: Assertion failed in log_clear_unflushed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096531
<jodh> ð
<jodh>  
<doko> - OpenJDK 7 security update
<doko> - get creduce built and packaged, using it to scale down preprocessed source files
<doko> - got multiarch patches into the 4.6 and 4.7 gcc branches
<doko> - GCC 4.8 update
<doko> - buildd baby sitting
<doko> - merged remaining GCC bits from the cross toolchains back into GCC
<doko> - updated the armhf, arm64 and powerpc cross compilers
<doko> (done)
<barry> oneconf: re-enable py2 support and bug 1088536; also enabled autopkgtests. ported lazr.config to py3; released lazr.config, lazr.delegates, lazr.smtptest.  looked into bug 1097783.  python security issues.  distribute bug #349 (crash on setup.py with BOM).  done.
<ubottu> bug 1088536 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "Updating packaging for Python 3" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1088536
<ubottu> bug 1097783 in genshi (Ubuntu) "re module apis return longs now" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1097783
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 349 could not be found
<cjwatson> jodh: ARM> yeah, I've been retrying it from time to time, to no avail :-/
<ev> Geez! Hurry up, slangasek. I want to make a tea.
<slangasek> ev: :P
<ogra_> just make a strong tea then :)
<slangasek>  * travel last week through Wednesday, then was out sick over the weekend + Monday with the flu, so little to report
<slangasek>  * have been working to help the Kylin team get oriented so they can meet alpha2 for 13.04
<slangasek>  * recovery mode has regressed due to the recent mountall SRU, so working on fixing that (bug #1099349)
<ubottu> bug 1099349 in mountall (Ubuntu Quantal) "mountall 2.36.3 hangs in recovery-menu (lvm; mountall 2.36 has no issue)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1099349
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> Build fixes: pyparted (with Tim), sivp, gnumeric
<cjwatson> 12.04.2: Switched to X enablement stack for relevant images; cleaned up various associated issues due to having to use metapackages.
<cjwatson> Phased updates: Reviewed spec and discussed with ev/bdmurray/wgrant; fixed up some glitches in update-manager; started on Launchpad implementation.
<cjwatson> Cross-building: Further work on backporting architecture qualifier support to Debian buildds; met up with Wookey for status check.
<cjwatson> Continued work on removing nested functions from GRUB.
<cjwatson> Hard thinking about the situation where the language and location selected during installation don't identify a valid locale (bug 1094872).
<ubottu> bug 1094872 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "Installation information cause letter format instead of DIN A4" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094872
<cjwatson> Looking at entropy pool issues at first boot (bug 1098299).
<ubottu> bug 1098299 in installation-report (Ubuntu) "entropy pool should be seeded earlier in boot process" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1098299
<cjwatson> ..
<ev> - Continued work on the prodstack error tracker deployment.
<ev>   - I've moved my testing over to EC2 from canonistack. Between the resource
<ev>     limits (I couldn't spawn 15+ instances) and frequently getting instances in
<ev>     the error state, canonistack was really slowing me down.
<ev>     We need to fix this though. EC2 is expensive ($15 for two days usage), and
<ev>     the error tracker infrastructure now cannot fit on canonistack without
<ev>     modifying people's resource limits, which hinders our ability to test and
<ev>     on-ramp developers.
<ev>   - Fixing bugs in charms along the way. Pushed one fix to jjo for Cassandra,
<ev>     and filed bug 1099917 for the other.
<ev>   - Fixed bug 1100245 in juju with https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/juju/fix-1100245/+merge/143483
<ev>   - A few bugs to iron out, but we're close. Webops is supposed to be picking
<ev>     this up and throwing it at stagingstack, but they're firefighting.
<ubottu> bug 1099917 in cassandra (Juju Charms Collection) "Cassandra charm changes cluster name incorrectly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1099917
<ev> - Code review for Brian. Discussions on the implementation of phased updates.
<ubottu> bug 1100245 in juju "exceptions.UnboundLocalError: local variable 'settings' referenced before assignment" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100245
<ogra_> done ?
<slangasek> he paused for breath
<ogra_> doesnt sound like breath :)
<ogra_> more like chatting :P
<jodh> cjwatson: thanks :) We have fixed the issue in newer releases so I'll cherry-pick the relevant bits and make a .2 release for precise.
<ev> - Code review for Brian. Discussions on the implementation of phased updates.
<ev> - Started implementing "silent error types" after discussion with Martin:
<ev>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker#error
<ev> (DONE)
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * started fiddling with porting the nx7 images to xz compression
<ogra_>  * looked into porting update-notifier to pkexec (then only xdiagnose will keep gksu on the cd)
<ogra_>  * started on fiddling with tegra3 gstreamer codecs, seems there is half a community port to gst 1.0 already
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * discuss livefs builder situation with infinity (carried over from last week)
<ogra_>  * fix plymouth vs console-setup racing somehow (likely needs cjwatson advice) to allow initrd-less booting
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> cool
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray?
<bdmurray> bug 1093819 looks interesting
<ubottu> bug 1093819 in Wubi "Wubi installed 12.10 amd64 without configuring i386" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1093819
<bdmurray> I have not tested it myself though
<slangasek> cjwatson: any idea about that one?  where are we running dpkg --add-architecture now?
<cjwatson> apt-setup
<cjwatson> generators/01setup
<cjwatson> controlled by apt-setup/multiarch preseeding, which defaults to "i386" on amd64 and empty on all other arches
<slangasek> is it possible preseeding isn't working right under wubi?
<cjwatson> don't see wubi preseeding that
<xnox> and there is dpkg maint script to add i386.
<slangasek> ah
<cjwatson> slangasek: it would have to be actively preseeding it *off*
<cjwatson> should be easy to look in the preinstalled image and check, I guess
<cjwatson> oh yes, of course, preinstalled image so it might not run apt-setup
 * cjwatson forgets the exact details of the new setup - ev?
<cjwatson> even so, dpkg.postinst should take care of it
<ev> oh hi
<ev> it's been a while for me too :), but:
<ev> compressed disk image unpacked, then small initramfs tomfoolery
<ev> for initial setup
<cjwatson> how much of ubiquity does it go through, if anyy?
<cjwatson> *any
<ev> none
<cjwatson> ok, so it's purely about the preinstalled image
<ev> lupin -> scripts/local-bottom/lupin_setup
 * cjwatson peers at cdimage
<cjwatson> oh great, it's a tar of a root.disk so I can't easily inspect it locally ...
 * ev whistles
<ev> hey man, I just make the tea around this place. Any name you find in bzr blame that looks similar to mine is purely coincidental.
<cjwatson> so, er, somebody with vaguely fast networking might like to download/unpack/loop-mount http://releases.ubuntu.com/12.10/ubuntu-12.10-wubi-amd64.tar.xz and see what its dpkg metadata looks like
<bdmurray> so then an automatic upgrade test is failing in bug 1096022
<ubottu> bug 1096022 in update-manager (Ubuntu) ""E:Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks" during lucid->precise universe upgrade of amd64" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096022
<slangasek> bdmurray: can you follow up on that download/unpack/loop-mount after the meeting, then?
<bdmurray> slangasek: yes, downloading now
<slangasek> cool
<slangasek> bdmurray: hum, so this is a *new* upgrade failure in the jenkins autotester?
<bdmurray> slangasek: that's the impression I got
<slangasek> do we know what date it started happening?  Maybe we can trace it to a particular SRU's publication
<bdmurray> hrm, actually it looks intermittent
<bdmurray> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise/view/Upgrade%20Testing%20Dashboard/job/precise-upgrade-lucid-universe/ARCH=amd64,LTS=lts,PROFILE=universe,label=upgrade-test/
<slangasek> oh, well then :P
<bdmurray> Okay, I'll look at that in more depth.
<bdmurray> Who could I talk to about understanding the pkgProblemResolver logs though?
 * slangasek raises his hand
<bdmurray> great
<bdmurray> somebody in my timezone even!
<bdmurray> I ran across bug 1077551 again and it seems worrisome to me
<ubottu> bug 1077551 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu) "Installing Machinarium removes the desktop" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077551
<slangasek> something's strange about that jenkins build, though; why is Dec 27, 2012 the oldest run of the job?
<slangasek> did we lose history?
<bdmurray> there was a comment from glatzor regarding 'We already don't allow to remove "essential" packages by using aptdaemon, e.g ubuntu-minimal. Perhaps we should add some more to the list (e.g. unity or even ubuntu-desktop)?'
<slangasek> I'm not sure that's something that should be a policy in aptdaemon
<slangasek> update-manager has that kind of policy, and maybe software-center should too
<bdmurray> so I'll follow up with the software center team then?
<slangasek> sounds good to me
<bdmurray> then looking at errors.ubuntu.com this has a high instance count
<bdmurray> https://errors.ubuntu.com/bucket/?id=%2Fusr%2Fbin%2Flsb_release%3AIOError%3A%3Cmodule%3E%3Amain%3Acheck_modules_installed%3Agetoutput%3Agetstatusoutput
<ogra_> err, what ?
 * ogra_ gets a weird bluescreen here
<bdmurray> hmm the instance I looked at has a ProcCmdline of /usr/bin/python -Es /usr/bin/lsb_release -a
<ogra_> clicking it gets me to http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail118.html
<ogra_> ev, is that on purpose or some bad joke i dont understand ?
<slangasek> bdmurray: very strange; why would we start seeing failures from lsb_release in 12.04, 9 months after release?
<ev> it means there's an error in the code
<ev> and it's not a bad joke! :)
<bdmurray> ogra_: it could be a great joke you don't understand.
<ev> yeah!
<ogra_> well, i got from the SSO page directly to that bluescreenish page
<ogra_> pretty scary
<ogra_> telling me i have a virus
<cjwatson> in the past I've seen failures from lsb_release which were due to people building derivatives and misconfiguring /etc/lsb-release
<ev> yup, digging at your error now
<cjwatson> not sure that fits this case though
<barry> i just get an sso page loop
<ogra_> i get that when i try it in a second tab
<jodh> barry: I did too until I clicked all the checkboxes :)
<ev> yeah, you need to send your team
<ev> I have a branch that makes this a bit more clear
<ev> ogra_: could you try again?
<ev> just trying to figure out which error is yours
 * barry goes click-n-clack
<ogra_> ev, works now
<ev> damn, though it looks like it's unicode fun
<cjwatson> and ECHILD is just a bizarre thing to happen there
<cjwatson> that kind of looks like "somebody else reaped my child process before I could"
<jodh> bdmurray: btw - have you seen bug 1100198?
<ubottu> bug 1100198 in apport (Ubuntu) "source_linux.py logic fails to detect 3.8.0-0-generic as an Ubuntu kernel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100198
<bdmurray> jodh: no, I'll have a look
<slangasek> bdmurray: do you want to open a bug report for the lsb_release crash, and we can add it to the stack?  It doesn't look urgent
<bdmurray> slangasek: sounds good
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> there might have an apport sru that changed this
<slangasek> hmm
<bdmurray> anyway, that is all
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else else?
<cjwatson> I was wondering about an idea for the build-dep-substitution problem in cross-builds
<cjwatson> (e.g. that when you see Build-Depends: gcc-4.6, you probably actually want Build-Depends: gcc-4.6:native, gcc-4.6-$HOST_TRIPLET)
<cjwatson> What would people (esp. doko, infinity) think about a scheme whereby packages that need this kind of substitution done have some field in their package metadata (Cross-Available: yes or something) to say so?
<cjwatson> It would beat writing a big list into sbuild and dpkg-checkbuilddeps, having to look at the apt cache in dpkg-checkbuilddeps, or any of the other heuristics I've been able to think of
<slangasek> cjwatson: maybe we can take that to #ubuntu-devel for follow-up?
<slangasek> sorry, I'm being pulled into meetings for the client sprint :)
<cjwatson> Fair enough, or I might just take it to debian-devel since I believe there's an appropriate thread there at the moment
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 16 17:03:39 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-16-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-16-16.01.html
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<ogra_> thanks
<stgraber> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<xnox> cheers.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-17
<scott-work> hi, scott lavender here, ubuntu studio project lead. i believe community council meeting is scheduled to begin in 5 minutes?
<pleia2> scott-work: yep :)
<knome> no, four minutes.
<pleia2> knome: well, we never do start on time ;)
<knome> awwh
<scott-work> unfortunately i need to be in a meeting at work at the same time, i will ask someone from #ubuntustudio-devel to attend or can xubuntu possible go first and i believe i should be in thirty minutes
<knome> we can go first.
<pleia2> ok
<scott-work> *should be BACK in thirty minutes
<scott-work> thank you knome and pleia2
<pleia2> scott-work: the more the merrier, so if someone from #ubuntustudio-devel could come in AND you rejoin us in 30 minutes it would be great :)
<pleia2> that way someone can start if you don't make it back quite on time
<czajkowski> Aloha
<knome> hey cjohnston
<knome> urm, czajkowski too
<cjohnston> :-(
<knome> sorry! :)
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 17 17:00:24 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<czajkowski> aloha
<pleia2> hello everyone, welcome to the first Community Council meeting of the year :)
<Gwaihir> hello!
<pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<pleia2> nothing on the agenda except for our scheduled check ins with the Xubuntu and Studio teams, but at the end of the meeting we'll go through our todo list and then ask for any other feedback/issues/topics anyone wishes to discuss
<pleia2> #topic Xubuntu check-in
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu check-in
<knome> \o/
<pleia2> knome: for these meetings we just try to get a pulse for teams, see if there is any way we can help, any particular challenges
<pleia2> so, how's Xubuntu? :)
<knome> hehe, well
<knome> following the agenda page loosely, here's some things i think we are (or should be proud of):
<knome> the progress on last cycle on many many community-related things
<knome> including, but not limited to:
<knome> revised strategy document
<knome> many marketing initiatives
<knome> new offline documentation
<knome> many improvements on our website and social media outlets
<knome> and progress towards a bigger team/community
<knome> i should probably specifically mention sean (bluesabre), who's been a huge help working with various things that directly and indirectly improve the quality of xubuntu
<knome> i'm hoping and waiting to see him be involved as much in the future and probably take a bigger role if that suits his life/work :)
<knome> does somebody from the xubuntu team or community want to add something?
<czajkowski> wow that is impressive knome
<knome> thanks :)
<knome> last cycle was definitely community-heavy for xubuntu
<czajkowski> knome: how have you managed to get people involved, as you couldnt be doing all this on your own :)
<YokoZar> Innumerable charms ;)
<knome> pleia2 has been awesome!
 * pleia2 switches to xubuntu hat for a moment
<pleia2> part of it has been we seem to have more users because some people are looking for a more classic desktop
<knome> (we don't have xubuntu *hats* yet...)
<pleia2> so more users means more of a pool to draw from contributor-wise
<czajkowski> nods
<knome> yep, we've been getting more questions about how to contribute mainly on our mailing lists
<pleia2> we've also been trying to fix up some of our getting involved documentation, last cycle in particular with our documentation rewrite, the core team was regular people on the project, but we got some newcomers too by making it easy for them to help out
<knome> yup, that worked out really well!
<pleia2> I've also been giving bite-size website tasks to some people looking to help (have some screenshots for updating the website in my queue from a new contributor)
<knome> i think we are looking at one or two new (semi-)regular contributors now thanks to the documentation rewrite process
<pleia2> knome: how are things going this cycle?
<czajkowski> pleia2: great idea
<knome> things are starting slowly, but steadily
<knome> we haven't done any team reports yet (ugh), but we'll start doing them soon enough i hope
<knome> we should start testing the new things that sean (mentioned previously) have been preparing for us
<YokoZar> I'm curious if some of the changes in Ubuntu's style of development have affected you in a positive way
<YokoZar> For instance the big new emphasis on automated testing
<micahg> adding autopkgtests would be nice, but I don't think we've done much with that yet
<knome> we've been looking at automated testing and wondering if we can use them in the future (hopefully for next LTS)
<YokoZar> My hope was that this would result in, for instance, less breakage for derivatives when we change core packages since those would be caught
<micahg> I think the -proposed migrations have kept the ISOs building though which is a good thing
<knome> there's not too many things that xubuntu specifically can test with autotests, i think
<YokoZar> micahg: That at least is great :)
<knome> i think one of the questions for xubuntu for this and the forthcoming cycles is ISO space
<knome> we're still trying to fit on a CD, and there's some uncertainty if the ubuntu core extends so much we have no chance of doing that
 * pleia2 nods
<micahg> we're also stuck with multiple python and gtk stacks for the next 2 cycles most likely
 * cprofitt waves
<cprofitt> sorry for being a bit late
<knome> we ended shuffling the ISO and dropping a lot of things in the last cycle
<czajkowski> knome: is there a plan then for that ?
<knome> czajkowski, not a definite plan yet
<knome> we'll see how the situation looks as we go
<pleia2> cprofitt: welcome
<knome> and before coming to definite conclusions, we need to investigate what we *can* drop if needed
<knome> micahg has been working on that with me
<knome> (mostly him though)
<knome> as always, more intercommunication would most probably make it easier
<pleia2> sounds like things are going well :)
<knome> here he is ^
<bluesabre_> here I am
<bluesabre_> :)
<pleia2> bluesabre_: any comments about the current state of xubuntu? :)
<bluesabre_> Not really, I think we've got a good focus on quality and user experience
<czajkowski> does sound like you have a well thought up plans and good active community
<czajkowski> which is great to see
<knome> that's true, we aren't targetting on too many new features for R, but focusing on keeping the quality up
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> that seems like a sensible plan
<cprofitt> like to hear the focus on quality and user experience.
<knome> and of course, we plan to keep looking good so we'll attract more users.
<knome> here's our artwork lead ochosi ;)
<pleia2> (but not by filling up our CD with tons of wallpapers ;))
<ochosi> just wanted to ask whether "looking good" is my queue
<knome> no, not that, we don't have space for that... :)
 * scott-work is back and thanks everyone for their patience with my schedule
<pleia2> ok, unless anyone else has anything to add, we'll move on to Ubuntu Studio
<pleia2> thanks knome, micahg, bluesabre_ and ochosi :)
<knome> ta!
<czajkowski> thank you
<cprofitt> thanks knome micahg bluesabre_ and ochosi
<pleia2> #topic Ubuntu Studio check-in
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio check-in
<pleia2> scott-work: for these meetings we just try to get a pulse for teams, see if there is any way we can help, any particular challenges
<pleia2> successes, progress :)
<scott-work> thank you pleia2
<cprofitt> hey scott-work
<scott-work> development has been slightly restrained lately, however i would attribute that directly to be and my lack of recent involvement
<scott-work> hi cprofitt !
<scott-work> generally i have been the one to pursue our action items and keep pushing things
<scott-work> that isn't to say that all development has stopped because people like zequence (ne ailo or ailo.at) and len have been pushing things along with micahg 's assistance
<scott-work> i'm not aware that the council could provide any assistance at this time, but i also admit that i may be lacking in perception or knowledge as well ;)
<scott-work> ..
<pleia2> does the team have regular meetings?
<cprofitt> how does the team track action items?
<pleia2> I find it's easy for team members to drift apart when there isn't constant meetings to keep focus and remind of outstanding items
<scott-work> the team has not been holding regular meetings. i would say that has dropped off during my limited activity, pleia2
<scott-work> cprofitt: typically we use status.ubuntu.com to track items
<pleia2> even once a month helps for some of the teams I'm on
<czajkowski> scott-work: would it be helpful if people rotated a chair so if you're not there the meeting still can go on ahead and there is a sense of still meeting and getting things done
<scott-work> generally i would posit that while there are more active members on the team we still do not have a strong, persistent nucleus for such critical mass
<micahg> I think zequence represented Studio pretty well at UDS
<scott-work> czajkowski: i agree. we have done so in the past with limited and varied results
<scott-work> micahg: agreed. he is a very capable person with good vision
<YokoZar> Is there any cause for concern?
<czajkowski> scott-work: it may be an idea to try it again if not an hour meeting but a half hour, touch base and a check up and see do folks need a hand
<scott-work> YokoZar: excellent question. when assumed project lead i viewed the team/project as dying. i think we have made exceedingly good progress from that point. i am quite proud of what he have done. however, i do not hold an active concern for the project, but i am aware how easily it could slip back without continued stewardship
<scott-work> czajkowski: that is very good suggestion. thank you :)
<scott-work> we have tried informal meetings on IRC, but the scattered nature of time zones is unfortunately not conducive to comprehensively or completely productive meetings as such
<czajkowski> scott-work: if we can help, let us know
<scott-work> thank you for the offer, czajkowski
<czajkowski> scott-work: even if it's boucning ideas off someone else we're here to help
<knome> from a semi-insider point of view, i think ubuntu studio has some good momentum, but it definitely won't hurt to keep checking how things are
<knome> we're having some cooperation between xubuntu and ubuntu studio since we both use xfce
<scott-work> my personal feeling at this point is that ubuntu studio needs active stewardship and vision. we made huge strides up to, and including, 12.04. since then i have been variably inactive and i feel the project has suffered because of this. this project is especially important to me and i am beginning to recommit myself to seeing ubuntu studio develop into what i believe it can be
<scott-work> knome: thank you for your comments. i also share the feeling that the cooperative between xubuntu and ubuntu studio has been incredibly rewarding and i look forward to continuing our relationship :)
<scott-work> thank you again czajkowski  :)
<czajkowski> No problem
<scott-work> one particular probelm i think we face is one of defintion
<scott-work> the team has previously defined our target audience but i feel we didn't commit with an entirely whole heart
<scott-work> especially when you couple this with some of our current promotional statements
<scott-work> i am hoping to really clarify the mission of the project and _exactly_ who are target audience
<scott-work> this cycle ( i should have added ;) )
<pleia2> the Strategy Document for Xubuntu has helped us a ton: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
<pleia2> makes expectations clear for developers, new contributors and users
<knome> definitely.
<scott-work> pleia2: i actually have a paper copy of that setting next to me right now! hehe, it has been an exceedingly good reference for me
<pleia2> :)
<scott-work> i think this is all that i have at this time, unless others have questions
<cprofitt> I think it sound like things are going in the right direction scott-work
<pleia2> I think I'm good
<czajkowski> I'm good also
<scott-work> thank you cprofitt :)
<knome> one thing you might want to (re)consider is how the leadership structure works in US
<czajkowski> thanks scott-work
<cprofitt> the target audience and mission will help
<cprofitt> thanks scott-work
<scott-work> thank you also pleia2 czajkowski
<pleia2> thanks scott-work :)
<scott-work> knome: that is another task i am schedule to complete this cycle
<knome> that sounds good. i think that helped xubuntu (or at least me as the project lead)
<knome> scott-work, feel free to be in touch with me if you need any help with the strategy document or any of that stuff
<scott-work> knome: thank you! i will certainly take you up on that :)
<pleia2> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<knome> np
<pleia2> I think the CC todo list is still looking pretty lean post-holidays
<pleia2> does anyone else have anything to bring up?
<czajkowski> it is up to date
<YokoZar> nope
<pleia2> ok, next meeting is February 7th where we are looking to meet with the DMB and Docs teams
<czajkowski> nods
<pleia2> I can take care of post-meeting wiki things in a bit
<scott-work> thank you pleia2 , knome , czajkowski cprofitt YokoZar micahg
<knome> thanks everybody
<pleia2> I think that's it then :)
<pleia2> thanks everyone
<scott-work> does anyone know where i might find out information about the upcoming uds?
<pleia2> scott-work: no news yet
<scott-work> i need to schedule vacation from work
<YokoZar> Thank you
<czajkowski> pleia2: thanks for chairing.
<scott-work> :(
<pleia2> I don't think the dates have even been announced :(
<scott-work> has it been confirmed that it is in the US at least?
<pleia2> I don't think so
<pleia2> jono: any UDS updates? people are starting to need to schedule time off and we don't even know *when* it is :)
<jono> pleia2, funny you should say that, the contract was just signed
<pleia2> \o/
<jono> so I will be getting an announcement out on Monday
<pleia2> great, thanks!
<jono> it will be early May and in Oakland
<jono> I am just waiting on the website to be updated and reg form set up
<scott-work> jono, do you have literally a minute for quick pm?
<pleia2> excellent!
<jono> scott-work, I have a min, but a meeting in 5 mins
<pleia2> (too bad I'll be soaking up the sun somewhere tropical, w00t honeymoon)
<pleia2> ok, thanks everyone
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 17 17:54:23 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-17-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-17-17.00.html
<jono> pleia2, oh no, shame you won't be there, but glad you will be honeymooning :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-18
<Aeefire> hey guys.
<ogra_> ho ho ho
 * ogra_ waves
<ogra_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 18 16:04:23 2013 UTC.  The chair is ogra_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ogra_> so this is the weekly nexus7 status meeting
<ogra_> anyone here besides me ?
<jake__> I am
<Sid_Payton> Yapp
<ogra_> hmm, i would have wished for some more people ... especially developers to give some status updates
<ogra_> anyway, i can at least do my own status update if others dont show up ...
<ogra_> work has been done on the splashscreen front, people using recent images will notice plymouth showing up on their installs (sadly still in portrait mode)
<ogra_> ureadahead was also fixed to finally generate proper .pack files, that should speed up booting slightly
<ogra_> work on reducing the image size (due to switching the tarball to xz compression) is underway, that will give us the opportunitzy to finally re-pack the images for more than the 8G device
<ogra_> xnox did some work on the usb-creator side for nexus7 support, so the installation/flashing should be possible from there soon
<ogra_> janimo developed a daemon for rotation and ambient light support https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-January/036337.html
<ogra_> we're still discussing how to move on from here
<ogra_> (it works fine but x is really slow to update the orientation)
<ogra_> the most serious issue is still the touch input layer getting confused ... even more in portrait mode
<ogra_> well, thats all the status i have to give atm
<ogra_> does anyone else want to speak up
<ogra_> ?
<ogra_> hey JanC
<ogra_> err
<ogra_> janimo,
<janimo> hey
<ogra_> i just posted a link to the ubuntu-devel mail
<ogra_> and mentioned your work
 * ogra_ wishes someone from the X team would be around 
<ogra_> i'd really like to hear about the input issues
<janimo> I'll have a look myself if no unity/X guy has time
<janimo> maybe I find some more clues to pass them
<ogra_> well, i was told there are fixed upstream, but thats like two months ago
<ogra_> tjaltoon was supposed to take care for it
<janimo> do we still have a top 5 worst bugs list as we had around UDS?
<ogra_> i think so, yeah
<ogra_> well, the top one is surely input
<ogra_> sound still needs a suspend cycle to start working
<ogra_> but thats an nvidia issue  according to diwic
<ogra_> we still have the panel shadow as black bar ...
<janimo> there are more than one input bugs though . One that it stops working, then nautilus double tap, and the relatively new clikcs not working unless in defautl orientation
<ogra_> and we have 103 open bugs ... some of them start smelling already
 * ogra_ points at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7
<ogra_> yeah, there is also "never release grab"
<janimo> I'd not mark those Q->R dist-upgrade ones Critical unless they happen on fresh raring installs
<ogra_> nope
<ogra_> especially BT ones :)
<ogra_> since qunatal has a hack there
<ogra_> plars, around ?
<ogra_> (and updates from the QA side ?)
<ogra_> s/and/any/
<ogra_> or gema or balloons ?
<balloons> gema's stateside today, or perhaps traveling back
<ogra_> k
<janimo> I will go through those 103 bugs and see if any needs update/removal :)
<ogra_> some do, but are assigned to people already, i didnt want to just close them
<ogra_> at least not without talking to the owner
<ogra_> in any case it doesnt seem that all the noise i made about this meeting got any of our developers here today ...
<ogra_> anyone having a suggestion how we can change that ?
<ogra_> also if anyone from the audience wants to speak up, ask a question or help, feel free
<Shindz> as for making noise,  I read the post on the fridge...
<ogra_> this is an open meeting for everyione to participate :)
<ogra_> Shindz, it was on G+ as well and on planet.ubuntu.com and i think someone even re-posted it to facebook
<Shindz> I saw it on planet.ubuntu.com
 * ogra_ has no idea what other media should have it as well, to get peoples attention
<ogra_> but i'll happily follow any suggestion for next weeks announcement :)
<Shindz> may be some some devs don#t go social ...
<ogra_> hah, yeah
<Shindz> for the Nexus 7, when could we expect to see a first true tablet experience ?
<ogra_> some time in 13.10 i guess
<ppisati> while i'm not nexus7 active ATM, i'm here :)
<ogra_> in 13.04 all the focus is on the underlying bits (the so called plumbing layer)
 * ogra_ hugs ppisati 
 * ppisati hugs back :)
<ogra_> so dont expect to much from 13.04 wrt tablet UI experience
<ogra_> focus atm is to cut down everything we can to optimal values ...
<ogra_> ram usage, space usage, speed etc
<Shindz> good to know.  what is the most difficult task you are facing now ?
<ogra_> and make all the bits and pieces work (sensor inputs like rotation or GPS etc)
<ogra_> Shindz, that the devs assigned to tasks dont show up to meetings i guess *g*
<Shindz> *g* ^^
<ogra_> beyond that, see the buglist, as jani and i mentioned, the input layer is super broken still
<Shindz> yeah I wanted to ask about it
<ogra_> on a touch device thats not really helpful :)
<ogra_> well, so i'll take an action to hunt down the missing devs personally during next week and have them show up here
<rrnwexec> is bluetooth getting any closer? that would help us test without needing the touchscreen
<ogra_> not having an Xorg dev here while discussing the input layer wont get us very far
<ogra_> rrnwexec, well, there is one nonfree bit that we havent decided on yet how to handle it ...
<ogra_> you could install the brcm bits from the quantal PPA on raring, i think that should make it work
<rrnwexec> ok. thanks :)
<ogra_> (but will make upgardes to the BT stack fail)
<ogra_> cyphermox, ^^^
<ogra_> do you have any info about the BT progress on the nxexus7 ?
<ogra_> hmm, seemingly not
<ogra_> probably some words of whats ahead for next week ...
<ogra_> i'll be working on adding preseeding support to the images for automated testing in the QA testlab
<ogra_> i'll also be working on the xz compression which needs some massive changes in the image build process and the installer
<ogra_> once thats in place we can think about building images for flavours (xubuntu, kde-plasma and lubuntu were asked for)
<janimo> ogra_, do we now have extra server time to add more flavours?
<ogra_> if someone is eager to learn how ubiquity works, i think xnox would be grateful for help on the "input in textfields does not work" and "wallpaper is missing" bugs of the installer
<ogra_> janimo, my re-working of the compression should avoid that
<janimo> you mean we could install multiple desktops from a single image?
<ogra_> janimo, currently the compressing happens on a panda and takes 1/3 of teh build time ... i want to move that part to nusakan
<janimo> still, have 3 or 4 nexus flavours seems a lot of work for little gain
<ogra_> janimo, nope, we will build multiple flavour based images
<janimo> anyway not my business
<ogra_> the xz compression isnt needed for te3h flavours, its needed for being able to re-roll the image during flashing for bigger than 8G devices
<ogra_> the current one is to big to properly re-pack it, fastboot falls over then
<ogra_> and the -S option for fastboot doesnt seem to be safe
<ogra_> (the tarball needs to become smaller for re-packing)
<ogra_> janimo, adding the flavours is a one line change to the crontab for each flavour
<ogra_> thats no biggie
<janimo> I was under the impression there is little time for extra images hence them being continuously pruned
<ogra_> making buildtime for them is, but thats fixed by moving the compression which we have to do anyway
<janimo> I thought the disappearance of the ac100 is a result of such shortage
<ogra_> current buildtime is 90min ...
<janimo> of server time and developer resources
<ogra_> 30 of them for gzip
<ogra_> miving to xz on the panda would double that
<ogra_> moving the whole compression to nusakan (x86 machine) will make us get rid of that delay
<ogra_> xz has to happen anyway ... we'll get spare time for flavours for free through it
<ogra_> disappearance of the ac100 ?
 * ogra_ checks, they should build 
<ogra_> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-preinstalled/20130118/
<ogra_> still there :)
<ogra_> anyway, 10min to go ... does anyone have more questions, suggestiones etc ?
<ogra_> seems not ...
<ogra_> i'll try to make sure the next meeting is a bit more crowded, if any of you have questions outside of that meeting, we're around in #ubuntu-arm all day ...
<ogra_> going once
<ogra_> going twice
<ogra_> meeting adjourned !
<ogra_> #ednmeeting
<ogra_> bah
<ogra_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 18 16:52:14 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-18-16.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-18-16.04.html
<ogra_> thanks everyone !!!
<Shindz> thanks
<plars> ogra_: hi, what's up?
<CrestedNewt> Evening all, apologies for last week - was my birthday and wife took me out at last minute
<bobweaver> well happy birthday
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - cheers mate
<CrestedNewt> So who is chairing today?
<mhall119> hey guys
<CrestedNewt> mhall119 - hiya!!
<bobweaver> hey mhall119
<mhall119> so I know we've been in kind of a holding pattern lately, waiting to see what's coming out way from the desktop team and phone team
<mhall119> tgm isn't there, but I think he's been working on the MythTV scopes
<CrestedNewt> @mhall119 - should we do the #meeting thing first?
<meetingology> CrestedNewt: Error: "mhall119" is not a valid command.
<CrestedNewt> mhall119 - should we do the #meeting thing first?
<mhall119> #meeting
<mhall119> @meeting
<meetingology> mhall119: Error: "meeting" is not a valid command.
<mhall119> :(
<CrestedNewt> :)
<mhall119> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 18 18:09:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is mhall119. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mhall119> there we go
 * tgm4883 lost track of time debugging vmware
<CrestedNewt> and no sooner than you do tgm4883 turns up
<mhall119> no worries, we just started
<mhall119> tgm4883: you've been working on MythTV scopes right?
<tgm4883> yes
<mhall119> #topic MythTV Scopes
<tgm4883> is bobweaver here?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MythTV Scopes
<bobweaver> y
<tgm4883> ok
<tgm4883> so we want a progress report?
<mhall119> tgm4883: could you give an update on your progress?
<tgm4883> sure
<mhall119> :)_
<tgm4883> 2 scopes
<tgm4883> 1st scope, display content/playback
<tgm4883> I've resolved a bug where i hardcoded in my backend info in one place, somehow I missed it
<tgm4883> so if anyone has been using the playback scope, it should be fixed in bzr now
<tgm4883> I plan on packaging that up this week after a bit more testing
<tgm4883> It displays everything that is recorded and/or in the videos storage group on the mythtv system
<mhall119> cool
<tgm4883> it also autoconfigures itself
<tgm4883> I plan on putting some options in place for that, but I wanted to discuss with bobweaver about that first
<tgm4883> mostly regarding a config utility and gconf
<bobweaver> my hands are tied
<bobweaver> I have no clue how the phone uses any gio or dee or anything like that
<tgm4883> I would estimate that the playback scope is 95% complete, as I'm sure there are some minor things that need to be done
<mhall119> yeah, so right now the front-end work really is having to wait to see where the desktop and phone are going
<mhall119> tgm4883: cool, how about the guide scope?
<tgm4883> Also not sure if I'll need to adapt anything for the different layouts
<mhall119> tgm4883: the scopes shouldn't care about layout
<bobweaver> Good question
<tgm4883> Also, still waiting on bug #1096708 to be looked at
<ubottu> bug 1096708 in dee (Ubuntu) "'SharedModel' object has no attribute 'append' using Python 3 on 12.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096708
<mhall119> #action mhall119 to follow up on bug #1096708 with libdee developers
<meetingology> ACTION: mhall119 to follow up on bug #1096708 with libdee developers
<tgm4883> mhall119, true, but for episodic content it might need an additional info from me
<bobweaver> er
 * tgm4883 shrugs
<tgm4883> we'll cross that bridge when we get to it
<mhall119> tgm4883: that bug you figured out was in the dee GIR packages right?
<tgm4883> yea
<mhall119> ok
<tgm4883> I've put all the info from my testing in the report
<tgm4883> looks like it just needs a backport
<tgm4883> anyway, scope #2, guide data
<mhall119> tgm4883: the upcoming scopes API should be finalized soon, I'll get you that info as soon as it's available
<tgm4883> mhall119, awesome,, thanks
<tgm4883> so the guide data scope is still pretty early
<tgm4883> It needs a few things
<tgm4883> 1) Guide lens
<tgm4883> 2) Previews
<tgm4883> Currently it works by using the videos lens.
<tgm4883> It pulls all guide data every 12 hours from the backend
<tgm4883> Searching includes title/subtitle
<tgm4883> there is no searching of description. While I'd like to do that, we need an upstream mythtv change for that to happen
<mhall119> tgm4883: are you able to test these in your own dash?
<tgm4883> otherwise the guide data pull goes from 20 seconds to 90 minutes
<tgm4883> mhall119, yes, I've been testing this scope in my 12.10 laptop
<tgm4883> using the standard Unity and videos lens
<mhall119> tgm4883: would you be able to do a short blog post showing off screenshots and/or screencasts?
<tgm4883> mhall119, there really isn't anything great to show off. It would be an extremely early alpha
<tgm4883> since it's using the videos lens, it doesn't look well at all
<tgm4883> I suppose I could do a screencast though
<mhall119> I think just seeing MythTV results would get people talking though
<tgm4883> ok, I can do that
<mhall119> thanks
<tgm4883> Is there screencasting software I should use?
<tgm4883> I haven't done it in quite some time
<mhall119> #action tgm4883 to show off MythTV results in the dash
<meetingology> ACTION: tgm4883 to show off MythTV results in the dash
<mhall119> kazam is really nice
<tgm4883> ok
<mhall119> any other questions for tgm4883 about MythTV scopes?
<bobweaver> n
<CrestedNewt> not from me
<tgm4883> So for a guide lens, I haven't looked much into it yet
<tgm4883> mostly, IIRC we're waiting on unity changes
<tgm4883> since there isn't a good layout for guide data yet
<mhall119> tgm4883: yeah, to display a guide in the Dash will require not only API changes, but also a new renderer
<bobweaver> er
<bobweaver> I dont want to talk about that
<bobweaver> I am so frustrated about all that ^^
<mhall119> and a new renderer requires UI stuff that it waiting on more info from Canonical
<mhall119> bobweaver: I know, we should chat in PM later
<tgm4883> yep
<mhall119> #topic UI work
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UI work
<tgm4883> But for scopes, I don't have to deal with that at all. It doesn't stop progress on my work until we actually need to do the lens
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  what if things are not the same ?
<mhall119> so like I've said, there's a lot we're currently waiting on that's blocking UI development
<bobweaver> what if 13.10 is not using py like it is now there is alot inthe air
<tgm4883> bobweaver, from a scope POV, it doesn't change that much for me
<mhall119> there was a product sprint in SanFran this week where the future plans for Unity across all formfactors was a major point of discussion
<tgm4883> all my scopes are python3
<mhall119> bobweaver: python scopes are going to be okay, is what I've been told
<bobweaver> yeah well I dont understand what "Unity" is anymore
<tgm4883> I think moving Unity to now use python scopes/lens would be a death blow to unity
<mhall119> originally they wanted to replace them with compiled scopes, but they decided to get optimizations using another method
<mhall119> We should have something solid on the API side by the end of this month
<mhall119> which I *think* is going to support guide data
<mhall119> it'll still use Dee models, just like current Dash, but will allow custom fields
<tgm4883> I hope so
<bobweaver> as far as ui stuff I have everything on my end on the back burner because of the phone and what not. but that is ok ,
<mhall119> it should all still use dconf for settings too, so either GSettings or whatever the Qt API is for dconf
<bobweaver> qtdee has been ported ?
<tgm4883> mhall119, so we could use any custom field, or should I be telling someone what fields are necessary for guide data
<mhall119> bobweaver: I'll double check on that
<mhall119> #action mhall119 to check on availability of qtdee
<meetingology> ACTION: mhall119 to check on availability of qtdee
<bobweaver> that is what unity 2d was using
<bobweaver> mhall119,  I dont know if that is a big deal untill I see the backend QT/c++ code that is for phone
<mhall119> tgm4883: there will be the current regular fields, but you can then define your own "Schema" on top of that with additional fields
<tgm4883> mhall119, ok
<bobweaver> the shared lib for unity and it's plugins
<bobweaver> qt ^^
<tgm4883> mhall119, because I'd hate for them to think of only a few fields and for us to need more
<mhall119> so we would decide on what data we need for a Guide, make that our schema, and build scopes that provide it
<tgm4883> mhall119, I've talked about what we need for guide data previously
<tgm4883> IDK if it's written down anywhere though
<mhall119> tgm4883: that's ok, since it won't be baked-in, we can make it and change it as we go until we're happy with it
<tgm4883> ok
<mhall119> anyway, all that should be done and public by the end of the month, or so I'm told
<mhall119> for the rest of the Dash, we're waiting to hear how all of the different codebases are going to be merged together
<mhall119> desktop, TV and phone
<mhall119> which will tell us what technology to use where
<mhall119> bobweaver is currently blocked on that
<mhall119> and I'm working to get him unblocked
<mhall119> so, that's all I've got on the UI topic, any questions?
<CrestedNewt> nope
<bobweaver> nope any questions for me ?
<mhall119> not from me
<bobweaver> cool
<tgm4883> nope, sounds like we're waiting on upstream
<CrestedNewt> nothing for bobveaver wither
<CrestedNewt> *either
<mhall119> any other topics to discuss?
<CrestedNewt> I won't be around next week but I don't add that much atm
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: no worries
<bobweaver> I dont have anything else to add atm
<bobweaver> I made a mockup wiht the phone sdk stuff last night
<mhall119> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 18 18:35:12 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-18-18.09.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-18-18.09.html
<mhall119> bobweaver: mockup of what?
<bobweaver> app that is Ubuntu tv
<bobweaver> or like a frame work
<bobweaver> so that it is ready for implanting
<bobweaver> soon we will all have everything that we need . exciting times :) have a good one everyone
<mhall119> let's head back to #ubuntu-tv, then you can share links :)
<CrestedNewt> good stuff bobweaver - catch you in a couple of weeks
<ptl> the Nexus 7 discussion will happen within 10 minutes, is that it?
<ptl> so...
<ptl> oh...
<ptl> it was 16:00 UTC
<ptl> :(
<ptl> I thought it was 16:00 EST
<ptl> dang.
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-13
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
 * barry waves
 * bdrung_work waves
 * stgraber waves
<tumbleweed> if ScottK doesn't turn up, I guess I'm chairing
<tumbleweed> we're quorate
<tumbleweed> shall we start and he can take over if he turns up?
<Laney> do we have anything?
<tumbleweed> that's a fair question
<Laney> I saw ari moved his application
<barry> wgrant, if we don't move that to email
<Laney> I didn't look at it yet, as promised
<micahg-work> o/
<Laney> if you guys want to though, try and rustle him up
<tumbleweed> Laney implied that we wouldn't take that application today
<tumbleweed> but I wouldn't be against making an exception in this case
<Laney> so I did my action item
<Laney> I'll remove that from the agenda
<Laney> the only other thing I want to say is to urge the rest of you to spend some time on the email applications
 * tumbleweed promises to
<Laney> you all have a DMB hour right now ;-)
<tumbleweed> this is true
<Laney> amusingly, the meeting is actually in 10 minutes :P
<Laney> no wait
<Laney> my calendar is wrong WTF
<Laney> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ friiiiiiiidge
<tumbleweed> hrm, it was right in my calendar
<micahg-work> fridge was wrong for me
<tumbleweed> yes, that too
<tumbleweed> aah, I copied it to my calendar while it was still right
<tumbleweed> then somebody changed the fridge
<jose> tumbleweed, Laney, micahg-work: DST changes make the fridge change. poke me at #ubuntu-news and I'll get it fixed now :)
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 13 16:32:21 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<chrisccoulson> hi!
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I'm working on several updates: openjdk-7 will either go out today or tomorrow. unfortunately, upstream dropped some arm assembly bits so the update wil regress on performance for arm
<jdstrand> I'll do an SRU if they add them back, but I'm not particularly worried at this point because even with the assembly bits, the performance is not great
<mdeslaur> nothing much we can do about that
<jdstrand> (ie, I don't think there is much performance sensitive openjdk arm out there)
<jdstrand> yeah
<jdstrand> I'm also working on openstack. I got slowed down a bit last week cause I had to start writing patches
<jdstrand> I've also got work items as time allows
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing some updates
<mdeslaur> I'll be releasing memcached this afternoon
<mdeslaur> and have a couple more lined up, and will continue going down the list, etc.
<mdeslaur> that's it!
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're yp
<sbeattie> I'm on apparmor this week
<sbeattie> I need to do a bit more prep before discussing the userspace dfa stuff with jjohansen
<sbeattie> I also need to do a bit of prep before the upstream meeting this week.
<sbeattie> as well as continue the ongoing testing work and review of patches
<sbeattie> that's it for me, tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm preparing an apparmor trusty upload right now with dbus eavesdropping policy support and a stack of parser improvements from sbeattie and jjohansen
<tyhicks> after that, I'll go back to kdbus
<tyhicks> I need to triage a couple ecryptfs bugs this week
<tyhicks> I've got a few other work items that I sprinkle in as time permits, but I'm not sure what I'll get to
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I'm working on apparmor again this week. I've got some dfa test coordination with sbeattie, some upstream meeting prep to do, a bug to look at (sorry need to did the # back out), and more revisions on the ipc and stacking work
<jjohansen> thats it for me
<jjohansen> sarnold: your up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week, though I've got some leftover bits of community that I didn't finish last week that I'll get to this week -- typo3-src, wireshark, and libotr2 updates
<sarnold> I've also got a MIR for beanstalk, currently that's blocking progress elsewhere, so that'll be a top priority this week
<jdstrand> sarnold: fyi, currently it ftbfs according to foundations)
<sarnold> if there's time left over it'd be nice to get caught up on apparmorpatches again
<sarnold> jdstrand: oh that could complicate things :) thanks
<jdstrand> I think it got reassigned to the server team
<jdstrand> anyhoo, it's all in the bug
<sarnold> anyway I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> i'm working on oxide this week ;)
<chrisccoulson> i've uploaded builds here now - https://launchpad.net/~phablet-team/+archive/ppa, although there's a couple of problems with these
<chrisccoulson> (all builds crash if the egl libs aren't installed, and there's another runtime link error with the arm build)
<chrisccoulson> should be fixed by http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~oxide-developers/oxide/oxide.trunk/revision/305 though
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: oh, both?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, both issues? i'm currently working on the other one
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: ie, after r305 is built, then we'll have armhf builds?
<jdstrand> I see
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, hopefully. i'm pretty determined to have a working arm build by tomorrow :)
<jdstrand> that would be awesome :)
<chrisccoulson> and then i shall be able to carry on with my other tasks
<chrisccoulson> oh, i spent friday afternoon investigating bug 1267893. that was fun ;)
<ubottu> bug 1267893 in Oxide "Shutdown crash due to possible mesa race at startup" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1267893
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ircd-hybrid.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dcraw.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/znc.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libtar.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python-virtualenv.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> So, now that we've settled in after being away for the holidays, I was curious about the status of our major work
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: based on what you just said, it sounds like we'll have armhf builds this week (awesome). That should unblock that work for everyone, correct? can you comment on when you think benchmarking, CI and uploads to Ubuntu will happen?
 * jdstrand notes that feature freeze is Feb 20th, and our oxide and apparmor work fall under that
 * jjohansen runs screaming back to bed
<jdstrand> ok, we'll come back to chrisccoulson later
<chrisccoulson> oh, sorry, i was talking in another channel
<chrisccoulson> armhf builds this week - yes
<chrisccoulson> uploads to ubuntu - i'm waiting on qt5.2 landing for that
<chrisccoulson> CI - i need to respond to an email for that actually :)
<chrisccoulson> and benchmarking can start whenever i guess
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: once the armhf builds work-- can you run the benchmarks on armhf for oxide and qtwebkit and send them to the the phablet list? (phablet because the builds aren't in a public ppa yet)
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, sure, no problem
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: the test-oxide click package has the links to some identified benchmark testsuites from conversations from months ago
<jdstrand> so I think it is just a matter of installing that and clicking on the links
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: thanks
<jdstrand> [ACTION] chrisccoulson to benchmark oxide and qtwebkit once armhf builds work
<meetingology> ACTION: chrisccoulson to benchmark oxide and qtwebkit once armhf builds work
<jdstrand> [ACTION] chrisccoulson to send results of benchmarks to list
<meetingology> ACTION: chrisccoulson to send results of benchmarks to list
<jdstrand> tyhicks: as for apparmor and the emulator-- your apparmor upload you are preparing-- is that all that is needed to turn on apparmor in the emulator?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: yes, that should be all that is needed
<tyhicks> (obviously, there will be one other upload to remove the apparmor=0 from the boot args)
<jdstrand> yeah
<jdstrand> thanks
<jdstrand> tyhicks: what is the status of the yama work?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: the work itself is all done - I have been trying to find a way to run the autopilot tests with yama enabled
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I saw an email to the phone list last week that said that the autopilot tests now pass in the emulator, so that's promising
<jdstrand> tyhicks: you might coordinate with xnox (he has been working on emulator working with autopilot) and perhaps sergiusens and/or the qa team
<jdstrand> yeah
<jdstrand> tyhicks: you mentioned the kdbus investigation will be picked up again this week. I'm guessing there isn't anything new to report since the last meeting on it?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: no, nothing really new at the moment
<jdstrand> ack
<jdstrand> jjohansen, sbeattie: I've seen lots of patches on different apparmor related items (which is great! the parser improvements in particular are going to really help the emulator work) but I'm not clear on the status of ipc and stacking. aiui from previous meetings, ipc should land first, with stacking later.
<jdstrand> jjohansen, sbeattie: I know sbeattie is working on testing, etc to support jjohansen's work-- how are we on ipc? on stacking?
<jjohansen> jdstrand: they are in the your machine will die in a firey oops state atm
<jdstrand> (for the feature and its testing)
<jjohansen> jdstrand: I am trying to get something up to a ppa this week but, there is no point if you can't even boot it
<jdstrand> jjohansen: ok. so, are these just bugs (that granted, may take some time to fix) or is it more than that? (eg, design, implementation, etc to be done)
<jjohansen> there is design iteration and some implementation to be done
<jdstrand> ok. ack on not uploading broken stuff to the ppa
<jdstrand> thanks for the updates
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 13 17:23:56 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-13-16.32.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-13-16.32.html
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstran
<sbeattie> thanks, jdstrand
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-14
<smoser> o/
<smoser> hey all. i'm not able to make the meeting this week, but roaksoax is supposed to be leading i believe.
<jamespage> o/
<roaksoax> howdy!
<zul> hi
<roaksoax> smoser: yeah, zul will do instead of me as I just got pulled into a call
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 14 16:01:09 2014 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<zul> hi
<rcj> o/
<zul> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> any topics from last week?
<arosales> o/
<zul> if not we can move on to the next topic
<zul> #topic T Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: T Development
<zul> jamespage:  do you want to take this topic?
<jamespage> zul, sure
<jamespage> so
<jamespage> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<jamespage> Alpha 2 is coming up on the 23rd Jan
<jamespage> I guess cloud-images will be opting into the milestone but not ubuntu-server itself (as usual)
<jamespage> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jamespage> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<jamespage> looking at >= high bugs
<jamespage> bug 1256433
<ubottu> bug 1256433 in likewise-open (Ubuntu Trusty) "Removal Request: Demote from main" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1256433
<jamespage> that should have gone through now I think
<jamespage> bug 1257732
<ubottu> bug 1257732 in neutron (Ubuntu Trusty) "Wrong configuration file path in Mellanox Neutron Agent init script" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1257732
<jamespage> fix commited
<jamespage> ditto bug 1062336
<ubottu> bug 1062336 in nova (Ubuntu Trusty) "nova-compute expects libvirtd group" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1062336
<jamespage> (I really should make those better)
<jamespage> rbasak has bug 1244343 in hand by the looks of things
<ubottu> bug 1244343 in php5 (Ubuntu Trusty) "Regression in system fallback for date_default_timezone_get()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1244343
<rbasak> I think that's at risk. Somebody needs to spend some time coding it.
<rbasak> This may be me, but I haven't committed time to it yet, or scoped out the size of this task.
<rbasak> I just triaged it :)
<jamespage> bug 1248283
<ubottu> bug 1248283 in juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty) "Juju deploy of Charm in MAAS fails because dbus fails" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1248283
<jamespage> rbasak, hmm - OK
<rbasak> I got delayed merging apache2, but I'm almost done and will probably upload today.
<rbasak> I'll look at php next
<jamespage> rbasak, excellent
<jamespage> that juju bug looks to be progressing upstream
<jamespage> roaksoax, has bug 1255479 in hand
<ubottu> bug 1255479 in maas (Ubuntu Trusty) "MaaS Internal Server Error 500 while parsing tags with namespaces in definition upon commissioning" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1255479
<roaksoax> this is fixed in trusty i believe
<jamespage> roaksoax, pls can you confirm and mark as appropriate
<jamespage> bug 1263738
<ubottu> bug 1263738 in lxc (Ubuntu Trusty) "login console 0 in user namespace container is not configured right" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1263738
<jamespage> being progressed by hallyn + the kernel team - great!
<jamespage> #subtopic Blueprints
<jamespage> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<roaksoax> will do
<jamespage> the status report should now be accurate
<jamespage> looking at reds
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-curtin
<jamespage> smoser: that either needs updates or re-planning
<jamespage> lots of past milestones with TODO still
<jamespage> well one milestone
 * jamespage was being a little harsh
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-openstack-charms
<jamespage> some work going forward for this one - however mostly back-loaded on the release so OK for now
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-lxc
<jamespage> actually looks OK  based on planned work
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-mysql-alternatives
<jamespage> mariadb-5.5 is now functional in trusty - thanks arges
<zul> did it get out of proposed?
<jamespage> zul, yes
<jamespage> percona-xtradb-cluster packages avaliable in ppa:mysql-ubuntu/percona
<jamespage> (from me)
<jamespage> but blocked on resolving openssl + gpl licensing exception in galera
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-cloud-init
<jamespage> actually OK based on plans
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-juju
<jamespage> going OK
<jamespage> juju-core 1.17.0 does build using gccgo - but expect some bugs
<jamespage> need to rework the go tooling to allow that to be used for the release - but thats still todo
<jamespage> lots todo this month
<jamespage> zul, back to you
<zul> thanks
<zul> i lost my page
<zul> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<zul> caribou: around?
<caribou> zul: I'm here
<zul> caribou:  any bugs we should be aware of?
<caribou> zul: nothing on my side thanks.
<zul> any questions for caribou?
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<zul> psivaa:  around?
<psivaa> Nothing much except raid and tomcat smoke tests are broken due to possible 3.13 kernel issues
<zul> in the iso tests?
<psivaa> yes, and i think hallyn knows about it (tomcat issue_
<psivaa> )
<zul> okies
<zul> any questions for psivaa ?
<hallyn> i'm not actually following that
<zul> jamespage: ^^^ tomcat issue ;)
<psivaa> hallyn: ohh.. still failing
<jamespage> urgh - yeah
<jamespage> not looked yet
<zul> psivaa:  bug number?
<psivaa> zul: did not report bugs since hallyn said that's a known kernel issue
<psivaa> could report one if needed
<smb> psivaa, what kind of raid problems (bug number?)
<hallyn> psivaa: i think the apparmor problem should be fixed now in kernel, so if there is still a bug please file in lp
<psivaa> smb: i have not reported any bugs for these two assuming new kernel will fix it. apparently not so i'll file bugs for both
<smb> ack
<psivaa> that's all from my side :)
<zul> okies
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> I do not have much. Probably the future of xen-api aka xcp aka xapi. But I think that would go beyond the meeting scope and I should rather kick off some discussion on the mailing list.
<zul> hi smb i know you are around
<smb> zul, No its just imagination
<zul> figures
<zul> xcp is dead in debian isnt it?
<smb> Yeah it was removed
<smb> And the new cool replacement has not arrived yet
<zul> coolio
<zul> any questions for smb?
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<zul> hi rbasak  any updates
<rbasak> Sorry.
<rbasak> No, no updates for me. Any questions?
<zul> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> any events coming up?
<zul> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> hi rcj welcome to the team
<zul> arosales: ^^^
<jamespage> fosdem
<arosales> rcj, welcome :-)
<zul> ah yes i forgot about fosdem
<arosales> zul thanks for catching that in the agenda
<zul> any other topic that people want to bring up?
<arosales> zul, marco ceppi will also be hosting a Juju room at the co-located config mgmt camp at FOSDEM
<zul> nifty!
<arosales> zul, by the way rcj will be primarily working with utlemming and smoser on cloud images.
<zul> so utlemming  wont be going crazy?
<rcj> I can't promise that.
<arosales> zul, well I can't say that :-)
<zul> too late anyways
<zul> #topic Next meeting time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Next meeting time
<zul> next week same time and place
<zul> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 14 16:32:41 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-14-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-14-16.01.html
<arosales> thanks for chairing zul
<smb> zul, Oh one thing
<smb> Could you probably add sforshee to the section of kernel team
<zul> smb:  sure
<smb> thanks
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 14 17:00:27 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> \o
<kamal> \o/
<smb> o//
<henrix> o/
<sconklin> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<bjf> o/
<sforshee> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<jsalisbury> No new update this week.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1311-kernel                || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-cross-compilation     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || bjf       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1311-kernel                || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || client-1311-xorg-general        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || servercloud-1311-openstack-virt || 6 work items ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Last week we upoaded our first v3.13 based kernel for Trusty to the
<ogasawara> archive.  The most recent upload brings in a rebase to v3.13-rc8.  The
<ogasawara> AppArmor regression introduced in the original upload should already
<ogasawara> have been resolved as well.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - Alpha 2 (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 6 - 12.04.4 Final Release (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Nov. 26):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Holding
<bjf>   * Precise - Holding
<bjf>   * Quantal - Holding
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Holding
<bjf> We are in a holding pattern waiting to see if any regressions show up that would cause us
<bjf> to respin before the 12.04.4 release goes out.
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> Note: Raring hit EOL and is no longer supported. However, the lts-backport-raring kernel
<bjf>       *WILL* continue to be supported until the first point release of the next LTS (14.04.1).
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 14 17:04:58 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-14-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-14-17.00.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<cking> nice one
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-15
<jared> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, amachu, and bkerensa. Meeting time.
<Pendulum> Okay, it looks like we don't have quorum for the Membership Board meeting, so we'll have to cancel
<Pendulum> kaimast: can you please PM me?
<kaimast> Pendulum: if you tell me how to (haven't used IRC in a while) :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-16
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 16 16:02:07 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> #topic Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> doko stokachu stgraber barry jodh xnox slangasek cjwatson bdmurray
<slangasek> doko: here?
<doko> slangasek, sorry, let me go as last one
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> stokachu: here? :)  anything for the meeting?
<stokachu> nothing this week :)
<slangasek> ok, cool
<slangasek> stgraber:
<stgraber> sorry, haven't had time to prepare notes so I'll just type quickly :)
<stgraber> a ton of LXC work this week, mostly bug fixes for unprivileged containers, reviewed a very large amount of last minute fixes
<stgraber> introduced a new image-based template called lxc-download which uses pre-build containers from https://images.linuxcontainers.org
<stokachu> stgraber: are unprivileged containers do-able now?
<stgraber> those are built from our new jenkins setup at https://jenkins.linuxcontainers.org
<stgraber> I've also been working a bit on moving our other QA tasks over to Jenkins to make them more visible to those who don't have shell access to our servers
<stgraber> I've also helped a bit with a security update for LXC
<stgraber> release LXC 1.0 beta2 yesterday and upoaded to the archive (no more distro patch!)
<stgraber> and I started updating my draft blog post on unprivileged containers which I plan on posting later today
<stgraber> stokachu: yep they are. I have Ubuntu, Debian, Plamo and Oracle running fine unprivileged on my laptop and probably a few more distros to come over the next few days.
<stokachu> stgraber: awesome!!
<stgraber> stokachu: you need a very recent kernel and userspace though, which I'll try to describe in that upcoming blog post.
<stokachu> stgraber: awesome, looking forward to that post
<stgraber> besides LXC, I've also been doing a bit of touch work, mostly extending test coverage of my ports branch for system-image
<stgraber> and talked with PES about how to setup internal servers
<stgraber> (done)
<barry> autopilot-py3: camera-app-autopilot, cordova-ubuntu-autopilot, dialer-app-autopilot, friends-app-autopilot, ubuntu-ui-toolkit.  however, the PPAs all this stuff depends on is in sad shape.  had some discussions with #ubuntu-autopilot about what we need next (mostly ci infrastructure support).  played around with autopilot+emulator.  actually managed to get u-u-t built, tested, and merge proposed.  not so much with other packages :(.
<barry> bug tag: py3autopilot.  progress will mostly depend on completion of qt5.2 transition.
<barry> debuntu: python-coverage sponsorship, patch piloted, dmb meeting.
<barry> py34 related test rebuild failures: nose, cinder, genshi (in progress upstream), configglue, fixtures, etc.
<barry> done
<jodh> * core-1311-upstart-roadmap
<jodh>   - cgroup support:
<jodh>     - cgroup manager: Added ability for client to establish if directory
<jodh>       existed when create requested (required by Upstart to avoid
<jodh>       removing groups it did not create).
<jodh>     - upstart:
<jodh>       - Implemented logic to block jobs that require the cgmanager until
<jodh>         it becomes available.
<jodh>       - Added code to remove a cgroup when no longer required.
<jodh>       - Finished updating basic cgroup unit tests.
<jodh>       - Updated code to work with cgmanager v0.12.
<jodh>   - async spawning: Investigating a bug with script jobs, found in testing.
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   - Merged lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/telinit-private-socket (thanks for
<jodh>     review stgraber)
<jodh>   - Investigations into the cause of bug 1269731. Unable to
<ubottu> bug 1269731 in upstart (Ubuntu) "init crashed with SIGSEGV" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1269731
<jodh>     recreate the problem, but atleast we now have a stack trace to
<jodh>     identify the offending instruction.
<jodh> ð¤
<slangasek> no xnox this week
<slangasek>  * upstream pam work to get pam_loginuid fixed in containers for stgraber, then got an itch to do a bunch more upstreaming work, so:
<slangasek>  * pam 1.1.8 uploaded to Debian unstable, planning to upload to trusty as soon as I have a chance to test it on the phone
<slangasek>  * forwarding of other Debian,Ubuntu patches to pam now that we're caught up with upstream
<slangasek>  * internal discussions about the Qt 5.2 ABI change: trying to understand its impact on the phone and the app store, getting my hands dirty with abi-compliance-checker
<slangasek>  * discussions around openjdk support in trusty
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> 12.04.4:
<cjwatson>  - More saucy enablement stack work, now in -updates.
<cjwatson>  - Miscellaneous reviews and e-mail.
<cjwatson> click:
<cjwatson>  - Trying to get libclick up and running.  I've decided on the general architecture (gobject-based C library with introspection, so I can translate a bit at a time reasonably easily), and have translated parts of click.{database,osextras,query}.  Will take a while longer to have something worth using.
<cjwatson> GRUB:
<cjwatson>  - Reviewed and applied ppc64 bi-endian patch.
<cjwatson>  - Continuing to try to get 2.02~beta2 ready for trusty.  Slowed down by a test regression (floppy boot failure due to increased module size, of all things), but I got that fixed today.
<cjwatson> Miscellaneous:
<cjwatson>  - A few cross-build fixes (apg, bridge-utils, dctrl-tools; switched libtool back to Multi-Arch: foreign for now; multiarched cdebconf to fix base-passwd cross-build regression).
<cjwatson>  - Fixed gucharmap for ppc64el.
<cjwatson>  - Perl 5.18.2 transition.
<cjwatson> .
<bdmurray> bug triage, SRU reviews
<bdmurray> uploaded a complete fix for bug 1237119
<bdmurray> set up of error tracker in canonistack using juju-deployer
<bdmurray> worked on a whoopsie issue where it is not uploading files immediately
<ubottu> bug 1237119 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "ERROR: hook /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/source_gnome-control-center.py crashed: TypeError: add_info() takes 1 positional argument but 2 were given" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1237119
<bdmurray> done
<doko> - another two full days of merges, component mismatches
<doko> - finished some "debian-science" transitions. the good thing is that nobody uses these packages and in doubt can
<doko>  be removed ;p
<doko> - maybe another day processing MIRs
<doko> - continue to pester people about ftbfs, unfinished transitions
<doko> - openjdk security update
<doko> - graphviz transition
<doko> - regtested and backported fixed for two arm64 gcc regressions
<doko> - gccgo updates
<doko> - updates for some ppc64el packages in main
<doko> - finished and summarized the outcome of the libtool-bin test rebuild
<doko> - finished and summarized the "openjdk-not-in-main" test rebuild
<doko> - finished and summarized the python3.4 as the default test rebuild (main only)
<doko> - updated the arm64 cross toolchain for glibc-2.18
<doko> - built eclipse for arm64 and ppc64el
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> ok - any questions on status?
<slangasek> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else this week?
<slangasek> apparently not :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 16 16:20:35 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-16-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-16-16.02.html
<jodh> thanks!
<slangasek> thanks, guys - short and sweet
<doko> tired about playing the cleaning lady for others :-/
<barry> \o/
<stgraber> thanks!
<ogra_> doko, shouldnt that be "room nurse" for political correctness ?
<ogra_> :)
<pleia2> hi folks, just gathering up CC members for the meeting
<czajkowski> aloha
<mhall119> stgraber: highvoltage: are you around to talk about Edubuntu?
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 16 17:05:21 2014 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pleia2> we have Edubuntu and Lubuntu on the schedule for today
<pleia2> anyone from Lubuntu about for a checkin?
<stgraber> mhall119: vaguely (having lunch)
<pleia2> or Edubuntu, hey stgraber!
<mhall119> stgraber: ok, it's just a checkin, so shouldn't require much
<pleia2> #topic Edubuntu check in
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu check in
<pleia2> I understand Edubuntu has been more focused on LTS releases, are things on track this cycle?
<czajkowski> stgraber: ?
<stgraber> well, not much has been happening lately but I still hope to get most bits landed before feature freeze
<stgraber> I've been pretty busy with other things so far
<stgraber> we did have an alpha1 though
<pleia2> that's good, anything the CC can help the team with with, or just general manpower blockers?
<highvoltage> o/
<pleia2> hey highvoltage :)
<highvoltage> hey!
<stgraber> general manpower blockers. I hope that edubuntu-server will help get more contributors later on.
<stgraber> our decision to stop doing non-LTS releases should also help a lot once 14.04 is out the door
 * pleia2 nods
<highvoltage> pleia2: did you see the mails last month regarding the edubuntu council / re-elections and the question of whether we strictly need a council per se?
<mhall119> highvoltage: where did that email get sent?
<pleia2> highvoltage: yeah
<stgraber> mhall119: CC mailing-list I believe
<pleia2> I'm thinking we go with the idea of dissolving the council, but I should follow up
<highvoltage> mhall119: community council and edubuntu council mailing lists
<mhall119> hmmm, must have missed it
<stgraber> mhall119: "Edubuntu Council expiring 2013-12-20"
<highvoltage> pleia2: I think in general the Edubuntu community still needs a community reboot of a kind (as it has for the last few cycles).
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> so in that thread we decided to wait until after the holidays (indeed, the whole thing got lost in my holiday backlog :))
<highvoltage> only problem is that everyone is eager to get involved with that but no one has the time
<mhall119> highvoltage: stgraber: if you need the community team's help in promoting such a reboot, get in touch with me
<pleia2> yeah
<highvoltage> sorry stgraber I didn't mean to derail your train of thought on the technical stuff :)
<pleia2> so the proposal in the thread was to remove the council and simply make stgraber and highvoltage co-leaders, which I'm still on board with
<pleia2> I'll follow up
<highvoltage> pleia2: great
<stgraber> pleia2: thanks
<stgraber> highvoltage: didn't have much more to report ;)
<stgraber> mhall119: we may take you up on that offer at some point. Currently I think we're in the situation where the effort required for such a reboot would drain a lot of the limited time we have to get the technical stuff done for 14.04.
<highvoltage> stgraber: in terms of goals for this cycle we're likely to focus on two areas, getting the edubuntu-server parts in a 1.0'ish state and getting some legacy desktop stuff (gnome flashback) in better state so that it's supportable for an LTS lifecycle
<highvoltage> (oops, didn't mean to aim that at stgraber)
<pleia2> cool
<stgraber> so I think it's best to focus on the release, make sure 14.04 is good and then we'll have 2 years to try and rebuild our community until the next release
<highvoltage> stgraber: *nod*, I think that reboot should happen post-lts-release
<mhall119> stgraber: I'd be happy to help coordinate a reboot, both as a community team members and as an edubuntu community volunteer
<pleia2> sounds like a plan :)
<highvoltage> mhall119: awesome :D
<mhall119> what DE is edubuntu using these days?
<highvoltage> unity by default with gnome flashback
<stgraber> Unity by default, gnome-flashback as an alternative and default for LTSP
<mhall119> ok
<highvoltage> the installer has an option to enable gnome flashback by default
<pleia2> ianorlin has joined us for the lubuntu team
<mhall119> is that well supported?
<highvoltage> personally I'm not a fan of unity since the dash is extremely confusing for new users
<highvoltage> and apps are hard too find
<mhall119> by upstream Ubuntu and/or upstream Gnome?
<highvoltage> mhall119: there's a small upstream team
<highvoltage> mhall119: I'm part of it, it needs a lot of work to keep it on life support
<stgraber> highvoltage: well, at least we don't have remote search enabled by default!
<highvoltage> (since the rest of the gnome world is changing so fast)
<ogra_> highvoltage, well, mate-desktop is in now
<highvoltage> https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomeFlashback
 * mhall119 will pick your brains about stuff in #edubuntu later :)
<pleia2> ok, thanks highvoltage and stgraber!
<mhall119> thanks guys
<highvoltage> ogra_: problem with mate-desktop is that it brings in the rest of the mate world, which is a clone of every gnome tool ever made (gedit, nautilus, gcalctool, etc)
<ogra_> lovely
<pleia2> #topic Lubuntu checkin
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu checkin
<highvoltage> ogra_: but I'd be happy to go only mate and through out unity if you can convince stgraber of that :p
<highvoltage> (thanks I'll move on now :p)
<pleia2> ianorlin: so during these checkins, we pretty much just ask about the state of the project/community and see if there is any way we can help out :)
<ogra_> highvoltage, your job, not mine anymore ;)
<ianorlin> Most of lubuntu is focusing on 14.04 now and 14.04 plan is fixing bugs
<ianorlin> the social media areas seem to keep having more users join
<pleia2> great
<ianorlin> although the QA mailing list has grown a little quiet lately
<pleia2> yeah, I had noticed that
<pleia2> I did a few tests on lubuntu ppc, but the holidays got pretty busy for me
<ianorlin> hasn't picked up much since then although I think trusty is running right now
<pleia2> is there anything the CC can do to help support the team, or do you think it's just a matter of getting more folks active/involved?
<pleia2> we're here to help resolve community and technical blockers with resources and things
<ianorlin> I can't think of anything
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> thanks for joing us today, anyone else have any questions/comments?
<pleia2> ok, I think that's it then
<pleia2> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<pleia2> anything else on our radar today that we wanted to chat about?
<mhall119> not from me
<pleia2> ok, thanks everyone :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 16 17:34:56 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-16-17.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-16-17.05.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-19
<doubt> hey, I'm having a problem with flash in lubuntu, anyone mind helping me?
<doubt> guys?
<doubt> Anyone?
<doubt> Nice, so much help..
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-12
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> \o
<sarnold> hello
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 12 17:12:45 2015 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Lev Lazinskiy (levlaz) provided a debdiff for precise for nginx (LP: #1370478). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1370478 in nginx (Ubuntu Utopic) "[CVE-2014-3616] "possible to reuse cached SSL sessions in unrelated contexts"" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1370478
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<chrisccoulson> hi
<jdstrand> I have some stuff to look at regarding snappy for this week
<jdstrand> and need to get to my pending updates
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing openssl which should go out in a few minutes
<mdeslaur> I also have an embargoed issue to look at
<mdeslaur> and have a bunch of other pending CVE updates I'm working on
<mdeslaur> that's it for me, sbeattie
 * mdeslaur pokes sbeattie with stick
<jdstrand> perhaps go to tyhicks and circle back around to sbeattie?
<tyhicks> I'm currently working on git updates
<tyhicks> the precise backport was failing the in-tree tests but I think I've just identified the problem so they should be going out today or tomorrow
<tyhicks> then I plan on helping out wherever possible with bug #1408106
<ubottu> bug 1408106 in AppArmor "attach_disconnected not sufficient for overlayfs" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408106
<jdstrand> tyhicks: where are we on that dbus apparmor bug?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: that's next on my list :)
<jdstrand> ah ok
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I haven't been able to look at it in some time
<tyhicks> but I expect to spend most of my time this week on bug #1362469
<ubottu> bug 1362469 in dbus (Ubuntu) "AppArmor unrequested reply protection generates unallowable denials" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362469
<tyhicks> that's it for me
 * sbeattie is here
<jdstrand> not meaning to rush or reprioritize it. it came up in a meeting today that we'll likely be looking at moving rtm branch to vivid in the coming couple/few months
<jdstrand> tyhicks: ^
<tyhicks> jdstrand: yep, I need to get it fixed and then post the latest set of revisions to the upstream dbus bug
<jdstrand> cool, thanks
<tyhicks> so there are two good reasons to get it fixed asap
<tyhicks> go ahead, sbeattie
<jdstrand> (that's it from me-- sbeattie and then jjohansen?)
<sbeattie> I have a set of yaml updates to go out later today.
<sbeattie> I have some upstream apparmor patches to review
<sbeattie> I need to get the pie stuff back on the front burner
<sbeattie> I'll also probably pick up the binutils update to work on in the background
<sbeattie> Sorry, I'm also expecting to work on bug 1408106 as needed as well.
<ubottu> bug 1408106 in AppArmor "attach_disconnected not sufficient for overlayfs" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408106
<sbeattie> that's it for me, jjohansen?
<jjohansen> There are a couple of things to prep for the monthly apparmor meeting, some outstanding apparmor patches to finish reviewing, finish up the work on Bug #1408833, some work with tyhicks on the interaction of overlayfs and apparmor (as mentioned already Bug #1408106), and of course continuing the apparmor upstreaming work.
<ubottu> bug 1408833 in AppArmor "broken postinst test for uvtool-libvirt on utopic" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408833
<jjohansen> thats it for me, sarnold
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week; I'm working on an update to coreutils, and there are five packages needing MIR auditing -- I probably can't get to all of them this week unless several of them are smaller than I expect
<sarnold> thanks to those filing early MIR requests :) much appreciated
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson
<jdstrand> sarnold: fyi, I assigned one more to you today
<chrisccoulson> it's mozilla updates for me this week
<jdstrand> oh, I didn't try the new firefox yet
<chrisccoulson> I'm fixing a build failure (armhf) at the moment
<tyhicks> I thought chrisccoulson wanted us to do that tomorrow
<jdstrand> I thought by tomorrow
<tyhicks> ah
<chrisccoulson> other than mozilla updates, I'm working on bug 1377198 which fixes some weird behaviour in an API that the browser is using
<sbeattie> chrisccoulson: I'm running the new firefox, not seeing issues.
<ubottu> bug 1377198 in Oxide "CertificateError is not cancelled if you stop the pending navigation" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377198
<chrisccoulson> excellent, thanks
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gcc-4.9-powerpc-cross.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ldap-account-manager.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bfgminer.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ganeti.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/rawstudio.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> I've got one for jjohansen, sarnold, and sbeattie regarding the libapparmor patches waiting for review
<tyhicks> how can I help the review process there?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: can you please provide 48h to my day
<tyhicks> would it help if I wrote up a man page for the new functions?
<tyhicks> jjohansen: :)
<jjohansen> tyhicks: no, its just spending the time to give them a proper review
<tyhicks> I need to write a man page before release, anyways, so it might help show the "bigger picture" during review
<tyhicks> jjohansen: ack - I figured that was the bottleneck but wanted to make sure there was nothing else I could do
<jjohansen> tyhicks: I would suggest holding off on that, I already have nacks on some of it
<tyhicks> ok
<sarnold> tyhicks: sorry, I was daunted by just how many patches are still outstanding..
<tyhicks> (please send out nacks asap so I can start on new revisions)
<tyhicks> jdstrand: that's all that I had
<jjohansen> sarnold: he was just trying to make sure you would have your fill over the christmas break
<jjohansen> tyhicks: ack
<sarnold> jjohansen: no fear there, it was an impressive patch dump :)
<jjohansen> sure, now /me has to give sarnold an even bigger patch dump to keep him happy
<sarnold> :)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 12 17:38:54 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-12-17.12.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-13
<gnuoy> Things seem to be in a bit of a muddle, since I'm in the chair but I was scribe in the last but one meeting. Either way, I thought I'd destributed minutes etc from my meeting last year but I evidently didn't so as penance I'll pick up today and sort out the minutes I missed.
<gnuoy> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 13 16:00:22 2015 UTC.  The chair is gnuoy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<gnuoy> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<gnuoy> All I have is:
<gnuoy> beisner: establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<gnuoy> did that happen ?
<coreycb> o/
<beisner> o/
<beisner> hi
<beisner> gnuoy, gaughen has initiated that
<arges> o/
<kickinz1> p/
<smb> o/
<kickinz1> sorry gnouy, I'm the responsible for that :(
<gnuoy> gaughen, does it require a meeting Aaction?
<gnuoy> * action
<gnuoy> kickinz1, not just you, my fail too
<gnuoy> ACTION: gaughen  establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<gnuoy> #action  gaughen  establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<meetingology> ACTION: gaughen  establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<gnuoy> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<gnuoy> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<gnuoy> Not much in Jan by the looks of it
<gnuoy> #subtopic Release Bugs
<gnuoy> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<matsubara> o/
<hallyn> ~month to feature freeze...
<gnuoy> ok, we have 5
<gnuoy> hallyn, ta
<gnuoy> smoser, does Bug #1387340 need anython special for vivid ? looks like fix to cloud-init is there
<ubottu> bug 1387340 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Vivid) "'output' directive not honored (/var/log/cloud-init-output.log missing)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387340
<gnuoy> Same question for Bug#1404311
<gnuoy> Bug #1404311
<ubottu> bug 1404311 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Vivid) "gce metadata api doesn't properly stream binary data" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1404311
<gnuoy> Bug #1409639 looks to be one you raised jamespage
<ubottu> bug 1409639 in juju-core (Ubuntu Vivid) "juju needs to support systemd for >= vivid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1409639
<smoser> gnuoy, they'll need to get uploaded to vivid, yes.
<jamespage> o/
<jamespage> indeed I did
<gnuoy> smoser, do you know if that's likely to happen soonish ?
<jamespage> there is a bit of a focus on the switch to systemd this month
<rharper> \o
<smoser> probably should. :)
<jamespage> gnuoy, that work is inflight with juju-core - we've asked it get backport to 1.22
<gnuoy> ok
<gnuoy> jamespage, and Bug #1388077 seems to be one of yours also
<ubottu> bug 1388077 in nova (Ubuntu Vivid) "Parallel periodic instance power state reporting from compute nodes has high impact on conductors and message broker" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1388077
<gaughen> o/
<gnuoy> jamespage, coreycb, will we automagically get the fix to  Bug #1388077 when we next do a juno pkg update ?
<ubottu> bug 1388077 in nova (Ubuntu Vivid) "Parallel periodic instance power state reporting from compute nodes has high impact on conductors and message broker" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1388077
<jamespage> gnuoy, its fixed in juno and patched in in kilo as well
<gnuoy> ok
<coreycb> gnuoy, I think yes then
 * jamespage does bug housekeeping
<gnuoy> That leaves us with Bug #1385851 then
<ubottu> bug 1385851 in openvpn (Ubuntu Vivid) "OpenVPN only supports TLS v1.0" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385851
<gnuoy> #subtopic Blueprints
<gnuoy> "Everybody review and update blueprints"
<gnuoy> with that taken as read, anything else?
<gnuoy> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<gnuoy> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-server
<gnuoy> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
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<gnuoy> Anything for/from caribou
<gnuoy> ?
<jamespage> gnuoy, you might want to update the openstack charms blueprint (hint)
<gnuoy> jamespage, with what in particular?
<jamespage> gnuoy, any updates on work items
<jamespage> right now have we done any charm work this cycle?
<gnuoy> well, yes.
<jamespage> 0/51 tasks completed
<jamespage> :-)
<gnuoy> I know, the blueprint haven't done an upstanding job of reflecting work to date
<gnuoy> but I agree, updates to reflect reality would be good
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (not psivaa)
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<gnuoy> we should probably skip this until we have a rep
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> On our side we had talked about dkms modules and reviewing stuff with 3.19. For openvswitch I was wondering whether there still will be something with Vivid. I mean there isn't anything in the archive, yet. But I am not sure this is intentional or not. Though I think from the openstack use case the in-kernel module was good enough. jamespage what would you say? Also, just looking at testing it seems it is/was fail
<smb> ing somehow for Utopic too. Which we may or may not care to care.
<jamespage> smb, it was intentional - its really not required for >= 3.13
<jamespage> I do have an in-tree ovs bug tho
 * jamespage looks
<jamespage> bug 1408972
<ubottu> bug 1408972 in linux (Ubuntu) "openvswitch: failed to flow_del (No such file or directory)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408972
<smb> jamespage, Yeah I just got pinged by jsalisbury to help him review his dependencies
<jamespage> smb, awesome
<smb> Apart from that anybody has something he want to refresh my memory with
<gnuoy> ... doesn't look like it
<gnuoy> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<gnuoy> Openstack charm feature freeze on Thursday
<jamespage> \o/
<jamespage> 15.01 here we come!
<gnuoy> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<gnuoy> Anything to openly discuss?
<gaughen> gnuoy, and there's the systemd virtual sprint
<gaughen> this Thurs/Friday
<gaughen> sorry missed the events topic
<gnuoy> it whizzzzzzed past
<gaughen> that is all I have to gnuoy
<gaughen> some good discussion today
<gnuoy> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<gnuoy> 2015-01-20 16:00 UTC
<jamespage> ooo my birthday!
<gnuoy> Looks like coreycb is next weeks winner
<gnuoy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 13 16:23:56 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-13-16.00.moin.txt
<coreycb> time to sing to james!
<coreycb> gnuoy, thanks, for some reason I haven't chaired in forever
<gnuoy> coreycb, you must be champing at the bit
<coreycb> gnuoy, oh yes, yes I am :)
<ppisati> o/
<chiluk> o/
<bjf> o/
<ppisati> \o/
<ogasawara> o/
 * cking \o
<smb> o/ (did id start?)
<chiluk> I think someone needs to start the meeting ..
<kamal> o/ o/ o/
<kamal> \o \o \o
<smb> kamal volunteered to chair
 * kamal hides
<ppisati> =^..^=
<arges> o/
<ppisati> (that was supposed to be a cat)
<ppisati> (ok so, my audio/pulse thing is broken - can't talk but i can hear you)
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 13 17:03:14 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Both the master and master-next branches of our Vivid kernel have been
<ogasawara> rebased to the v3.18.2 upstream stable kernel.  This has also be
<ogasawara> uploaded to the archive, ie. 3.18.0-9.10.  Please test and let us
<ogasawara> know your results.  We are also starting to track the v3.19 kernel on
<ogasawara> our unstable branch and have pushed preliminary packages to our ppa.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 22 - Vivid Alpha 2 (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 5 - 14.04.2 Point Release (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 26 - Beta 1 Freeze (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<chiluk> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<chiluk> so are which kernel are we targetting for use in vivid?
<ogasawara> chiluk: likely 3.19, possibly 3.20 but only if schedules align
<ogasawara> ..
<chiluk> ..
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 09-Jan through 31-Jan
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          09-Jan   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 11-Jan - 17-Jan   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 18-Jan - 31-Jan   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> ..
<bjf> oops ... all those should be kernel prep ...
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 13 17:08:34 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-13-17.03.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-14
<belkinsa> #startmeeting Ubuntu Leadership Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 14 13:59:30 2015 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Leadership Meeting | Current topic:
<belkinsa> Who is all for the Ubuntu Leadership Mentoring Planning meeting?
<belkinsa> Going once.
<belkinsa> Twice.
<belkinsa> Thrice.
<belkinsa> Anyways the roadmap is on this pad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipMentoringRoadmap
<belkinsa> And I think we should use Linux Padawan (http://linuxpadawan.net/) for mentoring.  Since it already there and we can make a sub-team for leadership mentoring there.
<belkinsa> If so, we should set up guidelines on how we will be doing this.  And I think we are going to this via mailing-list since no one is here.  Or may the pad.
<belkinsa> I will end the meeting here and move this to the mailing list.
<belkinsa> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 14 14:07:24 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-14-13.59.moin.txt
<Sick_Rimmit> Hello everyone
<Riddell> hi Sick_Rimmit
<yofel> o/
<lordievader> Hey Sick_Rimmit
 * Sick_Rimmit waves
<Riddell> ping Mamarok, yofel, shadeslayer, ScottK, valorie: kubuntu council meeting for Sick_Rimmit
<Riddell> who's all here?
 * Mamarok waves
<shadeslayer> moi
 * ovidiu-florin joins in
<ovidiu-florin> Sick_Rimmit: may I recommend that you put here your wiki page link?
<Sick_Rimmit> Sure one moment
<Riddell> yep, do introduce yourself and show us your wiki page
<shadeslayer> if I drop off, give me a minute to reconnect
<shadeslayer> I'm running without nm
<Sick_Rimmit> I have prepared this page on the Wiki
<Sick_Rimmit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RickTimmis
<Sick_Rimmit> So my name is Rick Timmis aka Sick Rimmit
<Riddell> "I am a friendly guy" that's a good start, we're a friendly operating system community :)
<ovidiu-florin> Kubuntu - "Friendly computing"
<Riddell> Sick_Rimmit: "KDE on LTSP" how well does ltsp work with kde?
<Sick_Rimmit> I am most proud of the work I did with Super Tramp
<Sick_Rimmit> We ran load tests on that, with the local LUG
<Sick_Rimmit> 50 VNC Sessions running KDE
<Sick_Rimmit> On a single IBM Xeon server running RedHat 7
<Sick_Rimmit> It worked really well
<Sick_Rimmit> In production that same server was running 35 KDE Desktops over X ( A la LTSP )
<shadeslayer> ooh
<Sick_Rimmit> We used Mini ITX boxes for the clients
<shadeslayer> Sick_Rimmit: did you blog about it
<shadeslayer> also, was /home local or on the IBM?
<Sick_Rimmit> The google links will give you the low down
<Riddell> I expect this was a while ago
<Sick_Rimmit> I was interviewed in the US for that, and also Linux Format too
<Sick_Rimmit> Yes 2002
<Riddell> back before Kubuntu existed
<Riddell> (Kubuntu 10th anniversary this april folks)
<Sick_Rimmit> I believe it was the first 100% Open Source Enterprise deployment in the UK
<Sick_Rimmit> We ran the whole company on FLOSS
<shadeslayer> Riddell: \o/ we should throw a parteh
<Sick_Rimmit> As I said in the press Lock n Stock from Desktop to Datacentre
<shadeslayer> Sick_Rimmit: sweet :D
<Riddell> shadeslayer: party is at FOSDEM at the end of the month, I hear some people aren't coming
<shadeslayer> but 10th anniversary is in April
<Sick_Rimmit> We then deployed a 4 site mixed FAT and LTSP Setup with 40+ workstations
<shadeslayer> u rob me of parteh's
<Riddell> shadeslayer: rounding errors
<Sick_Rimmit> For that implementation we used one of the first versions of Kubuntu Yay!
<shadeslayer> You should get those checked
<Riddell> ooh excellent
<shadeslayer> ^^
<Riddell> hi sgclark
<Sick_Rimmit> Hi sgclark
<shadeslayer> Sick_Rimmit: what do you think we can improve in Kubuntu for the next cycle?
<shadeslayer> random thoughts welcome
<sgclark> hiyas
<Riddell> Sick_Rimmit: what do you think your more significant and sustained contributions to kubuntu are?
<Sick_Rimmit> I feel we need to work on Stability and testing
<Sick_Rimmit> Why stability, because
<Sick_Rimmit> On the Super Tramp LTSP system, we ran 35 desktops and the server with 100% uptime for 1034 days
<Sick_Rimmit> No shutdowns no reboots
<Sick_Rimmit> Somewhere I have a screenshot of that
<Sick_Rimmit> We don't have that level of stability anymore I don't believe
<shadeslayer> Sick_Rimmit: ok, with the CI going, and a weekly ISO with Plasma 5, how do you think we can improve the testing ?
<yofel> not really, no. At least not without performance regressions after some time
<Sick_Rimmit> My contribution to most significan contribution to Kubuntu is advocay and promotion
<Sick_Rimmit> I have been using KDE for 15 years
<Sick_Rimmit> Shooting my mouth of about it for about the same
<Sick_Rimmit> I had a fling with Gentoo for a while, but it still KDE
<Sick_Rimmit> Oh and RedHat, SuSe, then Debian
<Sick_Rimmit> Always with KDE
<Sick_Rimmit> Unless its a server then  I prefer no desktop
<Riddell> this is no bad thing, I've been meaning to do a distro flitation day for a while
<Sick_Rimmit> shadeslayer: Oh Boy!
<Riddell> sometime I'll find out whatever makes people use arch linux
<Sick_Rimmit> I don;t have my head around the Kubuntu-CI thing at all
<shadeslayer> I'm sure we can fix that : tl;dr build things from git, so we can complain that d_ed breaks things
<Sick_Rimmit> At work we're just setting up a similar system, and I have introduced a few colleagues to Kubuntu-CI
<Sick_Rimmit> I gave Proteus_spark a tour via IRC just last week
<Riddell> I'm sure sitter would accept payment for consultancy :)
<Sick_Rimmit> But I don't have a clue how it's all working
<Sick_Rimmit> Well I've been trying to pursuade sgclark in that direction, I think at some point there might be some money on the table
<shadeslayer> ( where payment = wine )
<Sick_Rimmit> although that is not my decision
<sgclark> I have nothing to do with kubuntu-ci, I am working on KDE
<Sick_Rimmit> I have a Micro brewery and country winery here at home, so Wine I can do :-)
<shadeslayer> no ... wait. .. what have I done /o\
<Sick_Rimmit> sgclark: I know, I know but you have setup the CI integration environment to build and test
<Sick_Rimmit> which is what we are trying to do at WiFiSPARK
<Riddell> Sick_Rimmit: how would you like to help the kubuntu community in the future?
<shadeslayer> Can't have sitter knowing that Sick_Rimmit runs a brewery
<Sick_Rimmit> Well...
<Sick_Rimmit> I like mucking around in the Kubuntu-Bugs, and now that I've got a little experience with packaging
<Sick_Rimmit> I can test, triage, and sometime even fix
<yofel> shadeslayer: well, we can give Sick_Rimmit membership so he can bribe harald to do stuff :P
<Sick_Rimmit> I like doing that.
<Mamarok> mh, microbrewery, what type of beer?
<Sick_Rimmit> Right now, I am trying to get Sound rending fixed in Kdenlive
<shadeslayer> yofel: he already does stuff, if you give him alcohol, he'll just start ranting about perl and launchpad and python
<shadeslayer> instead of doing stuff
<Sick_Rimmit> I think I might get that fixed and packaged pretty soon
<Mamarok> shadeslayer: indeed, don't give him more :)
<yofel> shadeslayer: and here I thought he converted wine into code :O
<Sick_Rimmit> Mamarok: Ales and Porters
<shadeslayer> yofel: no, wrong, he converts wine into rants :O
<Mamarok> Sick_Rimmit: ++ for that :)
<Riddell> this feels like it's getting off topic
<Riddell> any more questions about kubuntu before we vote?
 * shadeslayer is satisfied :D
 * Mamarok too
<Riddell> council: vote!
<yofel> I'm happy with is wiki and what I've seen in the past
<Riddell> +1 from me for advocacy love and a desire to help out development
<sgclark> +1 FROM ME, THO i AM NOT COUNCIL HEH
<Mamarok> ditto, quite impressed with all the work Rick has done so far, and great to hear he is planing to continue :)
<sgclark> wow
<sgclark> oops
<Mamarok> so +1 from me
<shadeslayer> +1 from me ,
<Riddell> I also had a +1 from ScottK who can't be here due to timezones
<yofel> +1 for longtime contributions, doing amazing promotion work and being a really nice and useful fellow overall ;)
<Riddell> that's a majority as I count it
<Riddell> welcome in Sick_Rimmit
<shadeslayer> Awesome and sustained contributions to Kubuntu, I see alot more potential, we should make him responsible for advocacy and stuff :D
<shadeslayer> \o/
<Sick_Rimmit> Bless you golks, I am really happy. Thank you
<Riddell> well first he needs to sort out these posters for fosdem
<yofel> valorie gave a +1 on the wiki too
<lordievader> Congratulations Sick_Rimmit :D
<Mamarok> welcome and contratulations opn membership, Sick_Rimmit
<sgclark> congratulations :)
<Mamarok> about time, you should have applied years ago :)
<shadeslayer> ^^
<ovidiu-florin> Welcome Sick_Rimmit
 * Sick_Rimmit grins wildly, and feels like dancing
 * Mamarok makes some room and gets the music
<Riddell> Sick_Rimmit: added rick-timmis to ~kubuntu-members, you should be able to add any blogs you have to planet ubuntu and your rick-timmis@kubuntu e-mail should forward to whatever you have in launchpad within 24 hours
<Riddell> any other business while we're all here?
<Sick_Rimmit> Riddell: Most grateful, Thank You
<Riddell> I've a good feeling about vivid now that planet 5.2 is coming into shape, but I'm feeling quite overloaded with the packaging
<Mamarok> planet? you mean plasma I think :)
<shadeslayer> hmm
<sgclark> Riddell: miss me ? :)
<shadeslayer> I should blog about my Debian CI
<Riddell> sgclark: totally
<shadeslayer> who wants to be my guinea pig tester btw
<shadeslayer> before I release it
<Riddell> sgclark: but hopefully you can build armhf tests into kde ci so I don't have to upload calligra 6 times in a day
<shadeslayer> heh
<sgclark> Riddell: kde ci is starting to come together, hope to have time soon, tho I need to find a paying gig soon..
<yofel> maybe I'll have some time later in teh week for plasma, but I'm a bit overloaded with life currently :/
<Riddell> hmm, 7th upload failed https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/calligra/1:2.8.90-0ubuntu8
<sgclark> Riddell: I don't think they even have armhf to build on
<shadeslayer> Riddell: maybe start cross compiling locally?
<Riddell> oh other interesting gossip old kubuntu member jonathan the echidna thomas says on facebook he's working for mitre, so maybe we can get cve numbers from him
<shadeslayer> sgclark: cross compilation should work
<sgclark> ok
<yofel> lets see if qemu can build that
<shadeslayer> Riddell: ah true indeed
<shadeslayer> yofel: uh, do you still need qemu even if you have the armhf toolchain?
<yofel> yofel: maybe not, but I don't have that installed
<yofel> and lets move back to -devel
<ovidiu-florin> should we move this back to #kubuntu-devel?
<Sick_Rimmit> Thank you everyone..
<ovidiu-florin> Greeat to have you Sick_Rimmit
<Sick_Rimmit> ovidiu-florin: Thank you
<Sick_Rimmit> ovidiu-florin: Are you going to be a FOSDEM ?
<ovidiu-florin> Sick_Rimmit: I have to bring your T-shirts don't I?
<ovidiu-florin> :P
<Sick_Rimmit> ovidiu-florin: Wonderful, then perhaps I can buy you a beer
<ovidiu-florin> ;)
<ovidiu-florin> see you there
<Sick_Rimmit> Yes, I am really looking forward to it
<lordievader> Yayy, more KDE people at FOSDEM :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-15
<sil2100> o/
<robru> morning
 * stgraber waves
<jodh> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 15 16:04:33 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<sil2100> Please be warned, my internet connectivity comes in waves
<sil2100> So I apologize if I take long to asnswer
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
<sil2100> *answer damn it
<slangasek> mvo jodh infinity doko bdmurray robru sil2100 stgraber barry caribou slangasek
<slangasek> mvo is off this afternoon
<slangasek> jodh:
<doko> mehh, cjwatson escaped ...
<jodh> * snappy:
<jodh>   - Yet more boot polish :)
<jodh> â£
<slangasek> infinity:
<infinity> * I've been sick, so don't recall everything I did or didn't do
<infinity> * Played with the usual kernel SRU stuff
<infinity> * Worked more on IBM PPC packages
<infinity> * Babysat a PPC and ARM server move in 1SS and restored all our infra
<infinity> * Stuff and things
<infinity> [...]
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> back from vacation, catching up on email, currently updating openjdk
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> tested of ReleaseFirstSeen and ReleaseLastSeen in canonistack
<bdmurray> submitted RT #77829 regarding updating oops-repository in staging
<bdmurray> modified errors front end to display Release name instead of package version for first and last seen
<bdmurray> worked on javascript changes in errors to display the package pocket
<bdmurray> submitted RT #77923 regarding updating errors / daisy in staging for (15.04 (U)) display of stuff
<bdmurray> created armhf crashes received graph in graphite
<bdmurray> updating the error tracker to work with python-django 1.6 (LP: #1291604)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1291604 in Errors "error tracker does not work with django 1.5" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1291604
<bdmurray> uploaded updated T and U fixes for rsyslog bug LP: #1366829
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1366829 in rsyslog (Ubuntu Utopic) "7.4.4-1ubuntu2.1 makes rsyslogd to take all the CPU in OpenVZ" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1366829
<bdmurray> irc discussion with pmcgowan regarding the error tracker and how to use it
<bdmurray> helped somebody write an apport package hook
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> uploaded packages to vivid to get debug symbols for all architectures
<robru> * started working on irc bot support for CI Engine Ticket System
<robru>   - have a fix for queuebot spamming the channel every time it starts, just need to deploy that...
<robru> * Hotfix for unhandled exception in CI Train failing to identify supported arches for source packages that don't exist at the destination archive
<robru> * Completed staging deployment of CI Train
<robru> * Wrote wiki page with staging deployment instructions https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuEngineering/CI/Playbook/StagingTrain
<robru> * Added initial details to mojo spec to support production deployment of CI Train (RT 77970)
<robru>   - one branch defining SSL configuration.
<robru>   - second branch defining SSO configuration.
<robru> * Published a bunch of silos as always.
<robru> (done)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Fixing broken commitlog generation infrastructure
<sil2100> - Backlogging on e-mails
<sil2100> - Attending discussions related to future post-RTM branching plans
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Coordinating landings and releases for this weeks milestone
<sil2100> - Setting up VPN access
<sil2100> - Reviewing and testing big feature addition to appmenu-qt5
<sil2100> - Reading up about systemd!
<sil2100> - Preparing new formal rules for trainguard duty * Making sure there's always a trainguard per timezone * Finding resources for constant maintenance * Preparing trainging of new trainguards
<sil2100> - Writing up milestone reports: for the current and previous ones
<sil2100> - Slowed down by a cold
<sil2100> Next week:
<sil2100> - Finalizing the new trainguard process with Alexander
<sil2100> - Finishing automation of landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Preparing for the big milestone at the end of the month
<sil2100> (done)
<stgraber> container stuff:
<stgraber>  - Released LXCFS 0.1, updated our website for it and uploaded to the archive
<stgraber>  - LXC and LXD code reviews
<stgraber>  - Debugged and submitted a bunch of systemd fixes for unprivileged containers
<stgraber>  - Setup a new arm64 buildd (the previous one was unexpectedly decommissioned)
<stgraber>  - Various meetings about LXD
<stgraber>  - Discussions with the Linux Foundation about ContainerCon 2015
<stgraber>  - Figured the last details about Linux Collaboration Summit 2015
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> system-image stuff:
<stgraber>  - Talks about system-image mirrors
<stgraber>  - Tweaked the configuration for snappy armhf
<stgraber>  - Introduced version_detail for all images
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> qatracker:
<stgraber>  - Fixed a couple of small bugs in the LP sync script
<stgraber>  - Re-cronned all of our scripts (crontab got emptied somehow)
<stgraber> (DONE)
<barry> si: repairing trunk test suite.  nearly finished with LP: #1373467 branch (config.d directory) - one test suite issue left, then will land in trunk.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1373467 in Ubuntu system image "Support config.d directory" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1373467
<barry> snappy: debugged max recursion issue.  reviewed mvo's patch in upstream python (issue 23228).  other stuff.
<barry> debuntu: LP: #1398059.  more git-dpm testing for debian-python.  review python-lockfile 1:0.10.2-1.  debian bug #774213
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1398059 in python-virtualenv (Ubuntu) "virtualenv -p python2.6 fails with ValueError: zero length field name in format" [Low,Opinion] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1398059
<ubottu> Debian bug 774213 in zope2.13 "zope2.13: import zope.security._proxy -> SystemError: dynamic module not initialized properly" [Grave,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/774213
<barry> other: python-graphite issue 1081 debugging (python setuptools). finally updated some shared administrivia files from ubuntu one to spideroak.  python-world 3.1.
<barry> done
<slangasek> and no caribou today, ok
<slangasek>  * snappy development work ongoing
<slangasek>   * fixed an issue with boot delays under systemd if no DHCP server was present
<slangasek>   * discussed libnss-extrausers and the open questions of adduser
<slangasek>  * open job req for Foundations tech lead.  Know anyone interested?
<slangasek>  * upstart-systemd porting sprint, ongoing today/tomorrow on #ubuntu-devel - making good progress on the list of upstart jobs
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<cyphermox> slangasek: might want to add me to your script in the future?
<slangasek> cyphermox: in the future yes - do you want to report anything today?
<cyphermox> I don't have anything relevant to report, no
<slangasek> feel free, but I wasn't going to put you on the spot :)
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<barry> monday is a usa holiday
<bdmurray> Who is the best person to look at bug 1408495?
<sil2100> Yay for cyphermox in teh team
<ubottu> bug 1408495 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Vivid) "Ubiquity crashes prior to keyboard configuration in 15.04" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408495
<infinity> I want pie.
<cyphermox> hey, I want pie too, fax me some?
<robru> cyphermox: welcome!
<infinity> cyphermox: You can have pie if you look at bug 1408495
 * barry wants pypipypypie
<slangasek> cyphermox: do you have time to look at bug #1408495?
<cyphermox> this afternoon I might, otherwise tomorrow
<cyphermox> I'll ask questions as appropriate
<slangasek> sounds good, thanks
<cyphermox> this is good, I can use my fancy french keyboard to reproduce the issue
<infinity> FANCY FRENCH KEYBOARD.
<infinity> HON HON HON.
<slangasek> yes, the good old azathoth layout
<cyphermox> you haven't seen the fr_CA keyboards blessed by OLF yet
<slangasek> ok, clearly this meeting has run its course
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 15 16:21:47 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-15-16.04.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks :)
<infinity> The en_CA keyboards with the random pointless French keys are bad enough.
<mdeslaur> cyphermox: with the little man climbing the stairs icon, etc? :)
<infinity> Which is why I buy en_US keyboards.
<cyphermox> mdeslaur: https://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ressources/bibliotheque/depliants/20110819_clavier_normalise.pdf
<stgraber> infinity: oh yeah, that canadian multilingual keyboard is awful. I only really saw it in Federal government offices though
<cyphermox> I don't remember seeing the man climbing the stairs ;)
<stgraber> infinity: quebec have yet another fr_CA layout which is different from that. And then everyone in their right mind uses a US keyboard :)
<infinity> stgraber: IBM misguidedly shipped it as the default layout on some of their SKUs for a while, and ordering from IBM US was the only way to avoid it.
<stgraber> (with one of the international layouts so we can still type accents and stuff fine)
<mdeslaur> cyphermox: the older acnor ones had a man climbing stairs as the alternative key IIRC
<cyphermox> oh, the acnor.
<mdeslaur> infinity: oh, yuck
<stgraber> I've had DELL screw up when ordering keyboards from them but haven't had any problem with Lenovo so far.
<cyphermox> infinity: I ordered that keyboard on purpose on my thinkpad. I'll let you laugh at me when I see you
<stgraber> Also a friend of mine told me that Apple's site which sells you refurbished hardware doesn't mention what keyboard the hardware has, so if you are in Canada and order from that, it's keyboard layout roulette (with either canadian multilingual, fr_CA or US)
<mdeslaur> cyphermox: on purpose? with the weird shaped vertical enter key?
<infinity> stgraber: Well, hard to say if the period I'm discussing was IBM's or Lenovo's fault (machine was branded Lenovo, but I was on the phone with IBM) but, yeah, I got it with a scary Canadian keyboard, and the only recourse I was given was to return the Canadian one, and then talk to a US rep (which was an extension transfer in the same call center, lolz) to order a US one.
<infinity> stgraber: But the Canadian folks literally had no way to send me a US one.
<cyphermox> mdeslaur: no, it was a corner enter key
<stgraber> infinity: oh wow :)
<cyphermox> yuck
<stgraber> infinity: well, Lenovo still has that weird setup today that Thinkpad support is provided by IBM. With different phone numbers for Thinkpads and other cheaper Lenovos because of that.
<stgraber> but I've had IBM tech support in Canada ship me replacement US keyboards in the past, so they must have figured that one out now :)
<infinity> stgraber: It was an Ideapad, not a Thinkpad, which doesn't help.  Canadian VARs keep stock of en_US keyboard FRUs for Thinkpads, but the Ideapad is sort of sold as an all-in-one as-is deal: you get what you get, and scew you if you wanted something different.
<xnox> infinity: yes. I've moved to Dell XPS from idea/thinkpads, works good and has nice ubuntu logo engraved on the back.
<infinity> stgraber: I just thought it was bizarre that someone's market research in Canada determined that what all Canadians wanted was a keyboard layout that 85% of us have never even seen before. :P
<stgraber> :)
<mdeslaur> infinity: and that of the remaining 15%, most people deliberately try to avoid :P
<infinity> mdeslaur: Good for you.  Fight the power.
<stgraber> xnox: but no trackpoint and you get some coil noise (if that's an XPS 13) which would drive me nuts pretty quickly (whether you can hear it depends on people)
<stgraber> mdeslaur: where it gets ridiculous is when you're in a Quebec company with > 50 employees, because then you HAVE to have french keyboards...
<cyphermox> ight
<cyphermox> *right
<cyphermox> otherwise *everyone* avoids those abominations
<stgraber> "Hardware includes keyboards, printers, fax machines, smart devices andother data-input and output peripherals. Indications on command buttons andkeyboards must be in French. If applicable, an electronic display in Frenchmay reproduce or generate French diacritical marks (acute and grave accents, cedilla, diaeresis)."
<infinity> mdeslaur: Do you use compose or dead keys when typing in French on your US keyboard?
<cyphermox> infinity: good to see you're well aware of just how ridiculously complicated this all is
<infinity> cyphermox: Dude, I type in Japanese on US keyboards, you ain't got nothing on me.
<cyphermox> oh boy
<xnox> stgraber: i can at night, true.
<infinity> cyphermox: Basically, typing in Japanese means *every* key is a dead key.
<infinity> cyphermox: You type vaguely phonetically, and then every once in a while, a character pops out.
<cyphermox> yeah, I've played with it too
<stgraber> same thing with Pinyin for Chinese, though you typically always have characters show up sorted by probability, then you pick from those
<infinity> stgraber: Japanese is more messed up than Chinese, cause it reduces between three character sets.
<infinity> stgraber: So, you start out with a few phonetic characters, then it goes "HEY, I CAN TURN THOSE INTO SOMETHING SMALLER", which it does, then it goes "HOLY CRAP, I CAN TURN ALL OF THAT INTO A SINGLE KANJI", and you just marvel at the magic and go about your day.
<stgraber> :)
<cjwatson> I use compose for Irish, if only because apostrophe not being apostrophe bugs the hell out of me
<cjwatson> (but I only type a pretty limited amount in Irish, as yet ...)
 * pleia2 waves
<czajkowski> aloha
<pleia2> #startmeeting Community Council
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 15 17:01:15 2015 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting | Current topic:
<pleia2> #chair czajkowski
<meetingology> Current chairs: czajkowski pleia2
<pleia2> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<pleia2> today we're hoping to do a catchup with the Xubuntu team and Ubuntu Studio
<pleia2> anyone from either of those teams about? :)
<elfy> you and me probably ...
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> we never got a reply from the studio folks when you told them about this meeting
<elfy> nope
<dholbach> o/
<dholbach> sorry, another meeting took a bit longer than expected
<czajkowski> dholbach: np
<pleia2> #chair dholbach elfy
<meetingology> Current chairs: czajkowski dholbach elfy pleia2
<pleia2> #topic Xubuntu catch up
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting | Current topic: Xubuntu catch up
 * pleia2 switches to Xubuntu hat
<czajkowski> pleia2: so how are things in the land of Xubuntu ?
<pleia2> manual testing continues to be a challenge volunteer-wise, but in general things look pretty healthy
<dholbach> are there many changes planned in this cycle?
<dholbach> are lots of things happening upstream right now?
<pleia2> nothing major, elfy?
 * dholbach hasn't really followed xfce development in the last time
<elfy> nothing major afaik
<dholbach> ok... I just wasn't sure if there were any big things which needed integration - like new stuff in gtk or whatever or new features
<pleia2> our new features blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-v-features
<pleia2> pretty standard set of changes for us
<czajkowski> pleia2: what are the challenges that ye face?
<elfy> dholbach: the gtk update I believe we dealt with pretty much
<pleia2> we were worried about systemd early on, but that's not happening this cycle so :)
<elfy> well it is - but later :)
<dholbach> and a trello board
<dholbach> you look well organised! :)
<czajkowski> +1
<pleia2> czajkowski: aside from lack of volunteers for some of the day to day stuff like testing, none really
<elfy> dholbach: trello - tried that for a cycle - not using it now
<elfy> I use it for qa is all
<dholbach> ah ok... it was mentioned on the blueprint
<pleia2> yeah, we're back to just blueprints
<czajkowski> pleia2: ack. getting volunteers across the board does seeem to be an issue a lot of teams face
<elfy> dholbach: oh - that was just a specific board for a specific issue
<dholbach> I see
<pleia2> I'm hosting a QA jam for Xubuntu next month, hopefully drum up some local contributors
<dholbach> we do the community Q&A sessions every week - I was just wondering if anyone of you could join us and maybe show off some of the work you've been doing or talk about what where help's required
<pleia2> I can pass along the request to the team
<dholbach> maybe some kind of hangout before UGJ might help as well to get more testers signed up
<dholbach> that'd be great
<dholbach> we're always happy to have people to talk to in there
<dholbach> every minute interviewing somebody in the hangout is a minute less where somebody asks "is the phone out yet?" :-)
<pleia2> hehe
<elfy> ha ha ha
<dholbach> excellent... so yeah... I will try to start another conversation about UGJ again
<pleia2> great
<dholbach> it'd be great if we invited some more testers there again
<dholbach> balloons, ^ more testers! :-P
<balloons> pleia2, I saw, good luck and let me know if you need anything. You're a pro at this now :-)
<elfy> that's be nice - though what we tend to fight most against (at least I do) is the fact that half the time people can't even get a usb to work properly without random hacks to boot them :(
<pleia2> balloons: thanks, will do :)
<dholbach> how did the general coordination with the desktop team go?
<dholbach> were there any problems wrt gkt/gnome bits and so on?
<pleia2> I don't know
 * elfy neither
<elfy> I *think* that in general we get help most of the time when we drop by
<dholbach> ok... just thought I'd bring it up -- I think it's been a while since Ubuntu's and Xubuntu's desktop goals resulted in technical conflict situations
<elfy> but ochosi would be the one to answer that
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> how do you get most feedback from Xubuntu users?
 * mhall119 is here now
<dholbach> mhall119, hey hey
<pleia2> social media
<elfy> dholbach: across the support board mostly - some social stuff - pleia2 would know more of that
<pleia2> we're putting together a poll this cycle to ask more specific questions about the users and their usage
<pleia2> the user list and #xubuntu usually allow us to collect pain points, most of the devs chip in for support at least on IRC
<pleia2> s/list/mailing list
<dholbach> that sounds great - having a good feedback loop should help a lot in improving Xubuntu, and bringing users close enough to the team to get them to help out eventually :)
<elfy> dholbach: we can but hope so
<elfy> certainly from my point of view - it's gone backwards
<dholbach> backwards in which way?
<pleia2> the reviews for this past release have been pretty glowing http://xubuntu.org/press/
<elfy> holbach: testing, lack of :)
<pleia2> so folks writing distro reviews think improvements are being made :)
<dholbach> :-D
<dholbach> elfy, ok
<pleia2> yeah, testing, no fun when elfy ends up doing most of it as QA lead :\
<dholbach> right
<dholbach> maybe, when you do the poll, you could also ask people how they found out about the poll - maybe that'd help to figure out which channels they use and where you could get in touch more?
<czajkowski> elfy: why do you think people don't get involved?
<elfy> really have no idea czajkowski
<czajkowski> is there an incentive to get involved?
<czajkowski> like making a fuss of their work
<czajkowski> or a blog post
<pleia2> it's tedious, and making usb sticks is hard and there aren't great instructions that work universally
<elfy> the lts effort was really really good - last cycle was quiet - expected, this cycle is unfortunately worse
<czajkowski> a reason for people to feel like they are contributing
<czajkowski> pleia2: aye
<pleia2> elfy notes all contributors in his announcements
<dholbach> that's really really nice
<pleia2> we do blog posts, emails directly to all the testing members and to -devel list
<dholbach> wow
<pleia2> this cycle we're giving out stickers to some of our top testers
<elfy> if we get that sorted
<pleia2> share on social media too
<elfy> that's just sat around gathering dust for months now though - not blaming anyone though :)
<pleia2> a lot of the docs still tell folks to use testdrive too, which is just virtualized testing and not everything we need (I haven't used testdrive in a while and not even sure it works?)
<dholbach> maybe we should have a discussion about this on ubuntu-devel@ or something?
<dholbach> to figure out what we can recommend
<dholbach> and make sure that it works
<pleia2> perhaps
<elfy> I gave up trying to collate what worked where and with which version
<elfy> there's a bug for a lot of it - try and find it
<elfy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usb-creator/+bug/1325801
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1325801 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Utopic) "failed to boot from USB disk with error: gfxboot.c32: not a COM32R Image boot:" [Critical,Triaged]
<dholbach> yeah, I'm subscribed to that one :)
<elfy> then some people use unetbootin - that has issues
<elfy> dholbach: :)
<elfy> even had dd failing to work
<dholbach> but yeah... I think it'd help to try to get everyone's attention and point them at the problem, so we can figure this out together
<pleia2> and dd only works if your usb stick isn't that awful cheapo one you picked up at a conference ;)
<dholbach> I'm sure you're not the only ones wondering about what to recommend
<pleia2> even then, dd is hard on usb sticks
<pleia2> most weren't meant for such aggressive writing
 * dholbach nods
<elfy> I did a clean install the other day with usb-creator - still the same bug, creating vivid stick from within vivid
<pleia2> I can take notes about pain points during the global jam in a few weeks
<elfy> might be useful to get some direction from the Community QA guy with this usb issue - whoever that is :p
<elfy> *cough*
<dholbach> right, I pinged him about it
<elfy> he hates me :p
<dholbach> all right... mhall119, czajkowski: any more questions from you while we have the xubuntu folks here? :)
<elfy> I always ask awkward things :)
<dholbach> elfy, I don't believe you :)
<elfy> he he he
<dholbach> I'm super happy with what you have done, especially when I heard how you invite people into the Xubuntu community
<dholbach> that's just great :)
<elfy> yea - agreed :)
<dholbach> I'm all done with questions :)
<elfy> I've got none for me either :)
<pleia2> :)
<dholbach> have we heard from any ubuntu studio folks?
<pleia2> no
<dholbach> does anyone have any other subjects you wanted to discuss?
<pleia2> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<elfy> shout out to ian-weisser and those involved with http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/find-a-task
<pleia2> yeah \o/
<dholbach> woohoo    *\o/*
<dholbach> yes, great work :)
<elfy> lovely to see something come of the discussions on the community mailing lists
<pleia2> nice to see something come out of the flurry of discussion on the community team list in Nov-Dec
<pleia2> elfy: great minds!
<elfy> :)
<dholbach> :-)
<elfy> he made a thread on the forum re that - I copied it and stuck those
<pleia2> cool
<elfy> I guess we should try and kick start some of that pre-xmas stuff now the hols are well and truly done with
<dholbach> yeah, now we can make find-a-task more prominent on the page and we should be good :)
<Laney> what's wrong with the CSS on http://packaging.ubuntu.com/ ?
 * Laney just found-a-tasked his way to that :-)
<elfy> :)
<dholbach> urgh
<dholbach> it was OK this morning... or the day before
<knome> it's linking to non-existing files
<knome> http://developer.ubuntu.com/wp-content/themes/wordpress-theme-ubuntudeveloper/css/*
<dholbach> ahaaaaaaaa!
<dholbach> all right
<dholbach> we need to fix that
<pleia2> reminds me, who do we nudge about loco.ubuntu.com's planet-like feed being stuck in december?
<pleia2> hasn't updated in a few weeks
<dholbach> pleia2, mhall119 or daker would know
<dholbach> Laney, I can look into it tomorrow unless somebody beats me to it
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> while somebody is working on packaging.*, there are two invalid links
<knome> <li><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ubuntudev"class="facebook">Follow Ubuntu Development on FB &rsaquo;</a></li> <li class="last"><a href="https://twitter.com/ubuntudev"class="twitter">Follow Ubuntu Development on Twitter &rsaquo;</a></li>
<knome> add a space before class="..."
<dholbach> knome, noted down
<dholbach> it'd be nice if we could get packaging.u.c closer to how developer.u.c is laid out now
<dholbach> much nicer to read
<knome> hard to say what the difference is with the css files being nonexistant :)
<dholbach> like if you look at https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/apps/qml/tutorials/building-your-first-qml-app/ for example
<dholbach> knome, sure :)
<dholbach> anyway... not subject of this meeting - thanks in any case for pointing out what's broken
<knome> dholbach, if there are small things and canonical design/IS says it's outside their scope, you can generally try to ping me to see if i can help
<dholbach> knome, that'd be great - what happened in the case of packaging.u.c was that it relied on CSS of developer.u.c when it was still a wordpress site
<dholbach> that changed a couple of days ago :)
<knome> dholbach, yep, looks like it
<dholbach> I'll file a bug
<knome> dholbach, maybe the files are safe somewhere though, and can be put back at least temporarily
<dholbach> for me that's going to be tomorrow morning, I will need to run in a few
<dholbach> filed bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/+bug/1411349 for now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1411349 in Ubuntu Packaging Guide "CSS broken" [Undecided,New]
<dholbach> ok... anything else?
<dholbach> if not, let's wrap up this meeting :)
<elfy> not from me
<dholbach> I'm all set
<dholbach> pleia2, czajkowski, mhall119? anyone else?
<pleia2> all done
<mhall119> not from me
<dholbach> brilliant
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone!
<dholbach> and have a great rest of your day!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 15 17:49:48 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-15-17.01.moin.txt
<pleia2> #endmeeting
 * dholbach hugs pleia2
<pleia2> :)
<dholbach> see you! :)
<pleia2> have a good evening
<elfy> thanks everyone :)
<dholbach> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-16
<ochosi_> dholbach: in case it still matters, to answer your question regarding how the coordination between ubuntu and xubuntu devs is going wrt e.g. the gtk3 update: it's going pretty good, i'm in touch with larsu and seb128 mostly and so far everything has been sorted
<dholbach> excellent - I'm happy to hear that :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-17
<boodllebat> Hello I recently wrote an small application for Gnome and Unity Env under Gtk 3 It would be great if you take a look and give me feedback I have hosted it on Github Here is the video Demo https://vid.me/QhyM and here is the github link https://github.com/argunner/StickFace2
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-18
<micahg> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<xnox> yo
<cyphermox> o/
<caribou> o/
<cyphermox> I already pinged infinity elsewhere, since he's not in this channel
 * micahg did as well
<cpaelzer> fyi - stgraber is currently on a plane
<micahg> thanks cpaelzer
<cyphermox> bdmurray:  you around?
<Laney> micahg: here, sorry
<ogra_> cpaelzer, planes have wlan nowadays, that no excuse !
<ogra_> *that's
<xnox> !startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<ubottu> xnox: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<xnox> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 18 15:43:47 2016 UTC.  The chair is xnox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<xnox> aha
<xnox> sergiusens, caribou are you about?
<sergiusens> xnox, I am
<caribou> me too
<xnox> cool.
<xnox> i believe we have a qurum, so let's start.
<xnox> #topic PPU uploader Sergio Schvezov for snappy and snapcraft
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: PPU uploader Sergio Schvezov for snappy and snapcraft
<xnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SergioSchvezov
<xnox> sergiusens, please introduce yourself and briefly elaborate on your application =)
<sergiusens> Hi, I am part of the Ubuntu Core team at Canonical. I'm currently working on snappy Ubuntu Core, the snappy tool itself until recently (not directly now). Now I am leading snapcraft development and I would most of all like to be able to upload snapcraft.
<sergiusens> I can elaborate if needed
 * ogra_ is here to cheer for sergiusens :)
<xnox> sergiusens, both are written in golang?
<ogra_> *\o/*
<ogra_> ^ (pompoms)
<sergiusens> xnox, snappy in golang, snapcraft python3
<ogra_> and while i totally trust sergios packaging skills, i really think the next step needs to be core-dev after this application :)
<xnox> sergiusens, do you have continous testing for both against the archive? for example do you test building with golang 1.6 and python 3.5?
<sergiusens> snapcraft, has 89% coverage of unit tests, 91% if you aggregate integration tests and running all our current examples. (the integration tests are also setup as autopackage tests, but I don't think we've ever uploaded that yet)
<xnox> sergiusens, sounds good. yeah autopackage tests are the best to keep out broken toolchains from migrating (and breaking) your builds.
<sergiusens> xnox, for snapcraft, we do test  with 3.5 in mind
<sergiusens> xnox, for snappy we don't do 1.6 yet to support the gcc-go supported arches
<sergiusens> xnox, snappy takes it one step further, each new PR (github, yes) triggers a test on image full run
<sergiusens> test on image on one of the canonistack servers with ubuntu core
<sergiusens> canonistack == internal cloud (just in case)
<xnox> sergiusens, looking at the package names... is it really "snappy" the compresion algorithm package you are after to have upload rights for?
<xnox> or is it ubuntu-snappy and snapcraft?
<ogra_> the latter :)
<sergiusens> xnox, oh, it is ubuntu-snappy; you are indeed right
<ogra_> we dont use snappy in snappy
<sergiusens> sorry about that :-/
 * sergiusens fixed in the wiki
<xnox> sergiusens, looking at the upload history i see that mostly mvo uploads ubuntu-snappy, have you ever uploaded ubuntu-snappy?
<sergiusens> xnox, no, I just ask him
<sergiusens> xnox, but mvo spreads thin these days, I thought I'd help him out since I know a lot about the ubuntu-snappy internals (and its packaging as I've worked on it through MRs/PRs)
<xnox> but i do see that mvo endorses you.
<xnox> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<xnox> do you have more questions for sergiusens ?
<cyphermox> not me. I'm already familiar with sergiusens' work
<Laney> yes
<Laney> looking at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-snappy we can see that ubuntu-snappy is stuck in xenial-proposed
<Laney> can you tell us how you'd find out what's going on there and maybe suggest how it might get unstuck?
<sergiusens> Laney, I'd look at the excuses page
<sergiusens> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html
<sergiusens> what I see now after opening it, is that it seem the packaging has moved from 'any' to a subset of arches, so I'd need to talk to an archive admin
<xnox> sergiusens, how do you check the current status of the autopkgtests for a package? for example for snapcraft?
<sergiusens> if that is really what is wanted (but I'd have to check with the uploader who did that) :-)
<Laney> does https://launchpadlibrarian.net/234022487/buildlog_ubuntu-xenial-s390x.ubuntu-snappy_1.7.2+20160113ubuntu1_BUILDING.txt.gz tell you anything?
<sergiusens> xnox, I know there is a page for that too, I just don't have the link handy, sorry
<xnox> sergiusens, on the excuses page above, do a Ctrl-F search for "autopkgtest for snapcraft" there are links to logs.
<xnox> sergiusens, and it looks like it has always failed http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/s/snapcraft/
<sergiusens> xnox, yeah, that's why I said, the autopackage tests I worked on haven't been uploaded yet :-) This predates me
<xnox> sergiusens, looking at ubuntu-snappy history for debian/ folder, last commit from you was in July 2015. Do you really need upload rights for ubuntu-snappy?
<ogra_> to take load of mvo, yes
<sergiusens> xnox, no I don't need them, I just really want snapcraft ones, ubuntu-snappy is a nice to have and to help my team mates
 * Laney thinks it's okay for packaging to be stable
<micahg> +1 :)
<xnox> sergiusens, how do you choose a source packaging format for a package? and which one do you default to?
<sergiusens> xnox, fwiw, September 2015 was my focus switch from ubuntu-snappy to snapcraft
<sergiusens> xnox, I prefer to use non native (even though these packages say the contrary)
<xnox> ok.
<sergiusens> xnox, rule of thumb, native == ubuntu tools (or debian)
<sergiusens> ubuntu exclusive
<xnox> #vote grant sergiusens PPU rights for ubuntu-snappy, snapcraft
<meetingology> Please vote on: grant sergiusens PPU rights for ubuntu-snappy, snapcraft
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<Laney> crickets
<xnox> #voters
<meetingology> Current voters:
 * xnox sigh
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<xnox> that's it right?
<xnox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: grant sergiusens PPU rights for ubuntu-snappy, snapcraft
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ogra_> \o/
<sergiusens> yay, thanks
<xnox> #voters Laney cyphermox xnox micahg
<meetingology> Current voters: Laney cyphermox micahg xnox
<caribou> congratulations sergiusens
<sergiusens> caribou, thanks
<xnox> #topic Core Dev Application - caribou
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Core Dev Application - caribou
<xnox> #url https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LouisBouchard/Core%20Dev%20Application
<xnox> caribou, hello =) please introduce yourself
<caribou> Hello, my name is Louis Bouchard,
<caribou> my daily work revolves around fixing ubuntu bugs & doing SRU for the stable  releases
<caribou> I also have upload rights for sosreport and makedumpfile since 09/14 if I remember right
<caribou> since most of my work revolves around Main packages, I have decided to ask for core dev rights
<caribou> I'm also trying to do more merges
<caribou> and being more involved in the development process
<caribou> finally, I do some development work around kdump-tools, makedumpfile & sosreport
<Laney> if you get approved, will you help out with patch piloting? :)
<caribou> I would like to.
<caribou> I have a lot of colleagues who rely on sponsorship so I know the value of being available for review & upload
<xnox> caribou, have you had SRUs that went south after publication? and what have you done to minimize damage?
<caribou> xnox: luckily, none that I can remember
<caribou> xnox: my first reaction would be to revert the change that causes failure if it can be easily identifie
<caribou> d
<xnox> caribou, are you aware of the crash report monitoring?
<caribou> yes, very recently pitti pointed me to an issue with rsyslog that caused crashes
<caribou> I also know that a lot of work on it is done by bdmurray especially on the retracers
<xnox> right.
<caribou> I've used apport-retrace myself a few times
<xnox> caribou, and bdmurray can also set phasing on the updates, that is after update is published in -proposed it can be reset to 0% and thus prevent any new machines automatically installing or offering the update.
<caribou> I also had a lot of exposure to kernel crash dumps but those are not treated as such
<caribou> xnox: yes, I recently discovered about phased updates; a concept I had heard of from Google
<xnox> caribou, yeah, we had it since 14.04 or so (not on release day, but later during 14.10/15.04 cycles phased updates for 14.04 were enabled)
<xnox> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<xnox> any more questions for caribou ?
<Laney> nope!
<cyphermox> all good
<xnox> micahg, ?
<micahg> I'm good
<xnox> #vote grant caribou ubuntu core dev rights
<meetingology> Please vote on: grant caribou ubuntu core dev rights
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<Laney> micahg: cyphermox
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<Laney> |O|
<cyphermox> sorry, I was in ppc64el lalaland
<Laney> were you fixing udisks2?
<Laney> yes you were
<Laney> you great human
 * xnox ponders what's the point of setting #voters if it doesn't end the vote
<xnox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: grant caribou ubuntu core dev rights
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> Laney: udisks2?
<xnox> caribou, congrats =)
<caribou> xnox: Laney: cyphermox: micahg: thank you very much !
<Laney> http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/u/udisks2/xenial/ppc64el/
<cyphermox> caribou: congrats
<Laney> dholbach: get this fine fellow on the patch pilot list!
<caribou> happy to continue to be helpful to the community
<mapreri> xnox: it restricts the ability to vote, otherwise everybody on the channel can cast a vote
<xnox> mapreri, i see, thanks.
<xnox> #topic next chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: next chair
<xnox> who should be the next chair? is it Laney or somebody else?
<Laney> infinity
<cyphermox> yup
<Laney> see the list on the agenda
<xnox> #action infinity to chair the next DMB meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: infinity to chair the next DMB meeting
<Laney> take xnox and move to the end
<Laney> when you are updating it
<micahg> we need to kick off the nomination process for DMB soon
<Laney> yes
<xnox> #topic any other bussiness
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: any other bussiness
<micahg> current member terms expire 3/3 I think, so Feb 29 is the last meeting
<xnox> do we really need to kick of DMB? i thought it's not soon.
<Laney> 2016-03-10
<micahg> sorry, 23/9
<micahg> 3/9
<xnox> so we have 3 people expiring right? bdmurray micahg and xnox ?
<xnox> and infinity is on the other cycle, or on this cycle?
<Laney> 2016-02-29 is the last meeting before
<dholbach> Laney: thanks - will do
<xnox> dholbach, oh you want to run our election? thank you =)
<dholbach> what?
<Laney> so we should start the 2 week vote on 2016-02-14
<dholbach> sorry, I've only half been paying attention... I was referring to adding caribou to the pilots :)
<xnox> dholbach, ah, haha, ok =)
<Laney> therefore nominations starting on 2016-01-31
<caribou> dholbach: Laney: I'll need some help if you want to get me going
<Laney> although if it's anything like last time we'll have trouble finding people
<Laney> so should maybe give it an extra week
<xnox> Laney, sounds good. and i should draft a shout-out before that.
<dholbach> caribou: sure
<Laney> 2016-01-24
<Laney> xnox: I'm thinking about retiring then too
<Laney> will decde
<Laney> +i
<xnox> Laney, ahead of your current term?
<Laney> yeah
<xnox> Laney, i am legitimately expiring ;-)
<xnox> Laney, last year you told me i should serve till the end of term, and not expire ;-)
<xnox> Laney, you should stay for one more year.... =)
 * Laney has been on DMB since 2011-02-22
<Laney> we'll see, maybe nobody wants to nominate themselves anyway
<xnox> fair enough.
<xnox> anything else?
<Laney> wait
<Laney> will you start it with 3 + 2 weeks?
<Laney> i.e. on sunday?
<Laney> assuming you were volunteering to be returning officer
<xnox> Laney, i think i am stuck with returning officer role. I was going to start it on monday the 25th, rather than sunday.
<xnox> Laney, do we always end things on Sunday?
 * xnox doesn't like working on sunday
<Laney> usually advertise it as such anyway
<Laney> at least before the meeting on the monday
<Laney> it's more important for the actual vote
<Laney> nominations not so much
<xnox> ack.
<xnox> i see, true.
<Laney> so a week today?
<xnox> yeap
<Laney> ok
<xnox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 18 16:38:20 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-18-15.43.moin.txt
<Laney>  thanks!
<Laney> SPACE THANKS
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-19
<kickinz1> o/
<arges> o/
<teward> o/
<rbasak> o/
<jgrimm> o/
<caribou> o/
<zul> hi
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 19 16:01:11 2016 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<zul> #action Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> was there any action points from the previous meeting
<cpaelzer> late o/
<teward> thought there wasn't a previous meeting?
<teward> (one was missed, I think)
<zul> ok then
<zul> action: Xenial Development
<zul> jgrim: do you want to take this one
<zul> jgrimm: ^^^
<zul> #topic  Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xenial Development
 * jgrimm notices
<zul> smoser: ^^^
<jgrimm> feature freeze on its way Feb 18
<jgrimm> mad scramble for merges, would love more help. most important packages for merge being tracked in blueprint.
<jgrimm> but as this is an LTS release ideally would get currency across as much as feasibly possible
<zul> cool anything else?
<jgrimm> that's abou tit
<jgrimm> about it. eek
<teward> just for FYI awareness...
<zul> #topic Assigned bugwork (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Assigned bugwork (rbasak)
<zul> teward: go ahead
<teward> nginx 1.9.9-1ubuntu1 merged in on the 16th, after a -0ubuntu1 direct upload due to Debian being months behind
<teward> (from the 6th)
<rbasak> I've deferred bug work in favour of focusing on merges from the blueprint for now.
<teward> just wanted to give that as an awareness / FYI, with no additional action items there :)
<rbasak> Thanks teward!
<jgrimm> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-x-server-core
<rbasak> teward is so on the ball with nginx, I didn't think it necessary to create a blueprint item to track it.
<teward> rbasak: may wish to for the post-FF ones, though I have to add to my workflow to poke the Release team for FF review, with each new version made available
<teward> (especially with SRU post-release, for 1.10.x)
<rbasak> Understood, thanks.
<rbasak> Shall I add a work item for 1.10.x?
<teward> that's the ultimate goal, but that's something to look for in March/April
<teward> since nginx upstream won't be releasing 1.10.x until around that time, most likely after Xenial is released
<teward> (so that would be a post-Xenial SRU as soon as that's available)
<teward> rbasak: up to you whether you want the 1.9.x tasks added, for keeping it up to date with upstream/Debian
<zul> anything else?
<rbasak> OK, I've added a task for 1.10.x, marked as blocked. It may well be that we release without it, in which case we can translate that to an SRU bug.
<zul> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> o/
<zul> caribou: anything?
<rbasak> caribou: congratulations!
<caribou> I'm almost done with the nut merge
<caribou> rbasak: thanks!
<jgrimm> caribou, nice!
 * caribou got voted as Core Dev for those following on TV
<rbasak> caribou is our newest core dev, as of yesterday.
<zul> sweet
<jgrimm> caribou, congratulations!!!!
<cpaelzer> gz caribou!
<kickinz1> caribou, \o/
<caribou> thanks everyone ! I'll be more effective to help out
<jgrimm> indeed
<arges> woo hoo
<caribou> I have a question to bring up regarding HA support (clvm + dlm)
<caribou> maybe a good time now or later during AOB
<caribou> ?
<caribou> want to discuss it now ?
 * rbasak looks at zul
<zul> up to you
<zul> im double booked right now
<caribou> right now, clvm is in main but dlm is in Universe
<caribou> libdlm3 in main though. We have people who want a supported solution to implement shared storage
<caribou> jgrimm: it would be important for our next LTS to have a clear statement on how we support shared storage access with clvm
<zul> agreed
<rbasak> So this is a question of what we want in main?
<caribou> at the same time, the dlm package has been uninstallable for two years with only one people complaining
<rbasak> That's a question for Canonical I guess, so between jgrimm and kirkland.
<caribou> rbasak: yes, what we want to offer in main (not only Canonical; do we want to demote clvm out of main ?)
<caribou> rbasak: but I agree, I can take it with jgrimm & Dustin
<jgrimm> caribou, yes please.
<caribou> other than that I'm good, nothing else
<caribou> thanks again !
<zul> ok moving on
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<zul> he aint here...
<zul> anyone have anything?
<teward> there's one action item on there
<teward> underneath there, though if matsubara's not here maybe it needs to be delayed to next meeting?
<zul> fine with me :)
<teward> thoughts from the others on the team, whether we push the QA issue to next meeting, due to Matsubara's absense?
<teward> absence*
<teward> oop there's matsubara, maybe
<matsubara> sorry, ISP issues
<rbasak> Did Phill's subsequent email to the ML retract this agenda point? That wasn't clear to me. Is he here?
<phillw> o/
<matsubara> I was trying to connect back to join the meeting
<rbasak> phillw: o/
<matsubara> just to clarify the issue further, we do have smoke tests (automated) for i386 running. I think phillw concerns were about the iso tracker manual tests (that's from what I understand about the issue)
<rbasak> phillw: did you still want to raise this with matsubara?
<matsubara> not sure at what point we are at the meeting
<phillw> yeah, I can arrange for the manual tests on the iso tracker to be arried out periodically if the team maintains that version.
<rbasak> "    32-bit QA and Support Discussion (phillw) " is where I think we are.
<phillw> *carried
<matsubara> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Trusty/view/Smoke%20Testing/
<matsubara> that shows that we do have i386 automated tests for trusty isos
<matsubara> and it's in my todo list to move those to our https://server-team-jenkins.canonical.com/ instance and of course update them to include xenial tests as well
<hggdh> just a question: we have not been smoke-testing Xenial on i386?
<matsubara> hggdh, for some reason they haven't run for a long time, I'll look into it. I've been bad at monitoring those tests runs
<zul> anything else?
<hggdh> one more pont
<hggdh> point*
<hggdh> I ould like to know if we are going to keep on doing i386 tests; also, are we going to re-introduce manual testing, or is the team's opinion that the automated smoke tests are enough?
<matsubara> I think the automated tests we have are enough and cover the main workflows with server installs
<jgrimm> matsubara, i'd like to understand what the differences are tho
<rbasak> Shall we defer this, and then matsubara can maybe give us a full answer next week?
<jgrimm> between automated smoke vs manual tests, and where/when the manual tests have historically been run.  seems like we need to come back next week with a bit more data and opinion.
<jgrimm> rbasak, agreed
<rbasak> zul: an action for matsubara please?
<zul> rbasak: for?
<rbasak> matsubara to research and answer whether we want to resume manual testing for i386
<hggdh> a more knowledge-based response to jgrimm's points
<zul> action: Matsubara to research and answer whether we want to resume manual testing for i386
<matsubara> jgrimm, I think mainly process wise but I might be wrong. the only mandatory ones in the ISO tracker http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/351/builds/110651/testcases/1403/results are basically covered by the https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Trusty/view/Smoke%20Testing/job/trusty-server-amd64-smoke-lvm/ for example
<zul> #action: Matsubara to research and answer whether we want to resume manual testing for i386
<meetingology> ACTION: : Matsubara to research and answer whether we want to resume manual testing for i386
<rbasak> Thanks!
<matsubara> but that's fine I can take that action and explaing further
<zul> anything else?
<jgrimm> thank you matsubara
<matsubara> thanks zul, rbasak, jgrimm, teward and phillw
<hggdh> phillw: this was your point. No comments?
<matsubara> oh and hggdh too
<hggdh> heh
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<hggdh> matsubara: I am still alive :-)
<matsubara> nice to see you around hggdh, long time, no talk!
<zul> arges: i know you are around
<phillw> i will put in diary to be here next meeting, Thanks,
<arges> zul: nothing here
<arges> ..
<arges> oh
<arges> doing the libvirt merge
<arges> .
<hggdh> matsubara: indeed
<kickinz1> arges, I had some kernel traces when running schroot on top of btrfs with a bcache backend. Di you see the bug?
<zul> arges: ok cool
<arges> kickinz1: nope whats the bug#?
<zul> anything for arges?
<kickinz1> arge https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1532145
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1532145 in linux (Ubuntu) "Kernel Panic wrt btrfs while sbuild/schroot" [High,Confirmed]
<arges> kickinz1: ok i'll tag it so we work on it
<arges> thanks
<kickinz1> arges, np
<zul> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Upcoming Call For Papers
<zul> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> there is something in california this week and fossdem is next week (ill be there)
<zul> anyting else?
<zul> if not
<zul> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> anything to bring up
<zul> if not
<zul> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 19 16:36:47 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-19-16.01.moin.txt
<zul> thanks
<kickinz1> Thanks zul.
<jgrimm> thanks zul
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-20
<slashd> Hi, is there a ubuntu membership meeting today at 12 UTC ?
<elacheche> Hey slashd!
<slashd> hi elacheche
<elacheche> I'm from the Membership Board..
<slashd> nice to meet you
<elacheche> Sorry for the delay.. I think that we don't have the quorum to start the meeting..
<slashd> elacheche, ok will wait I was simply  making sure I was there at the right time ;)
<elacheche> Thank you.. I think that no one else will show up today :/
<elacheche> It's 7:30 am in there isn't it!
<slashd> yes, 7:30AM for me
<slashd> elachche, so I'll have to reconvene at next meetings ?
<elacheche> OK.. I think that we (the Membership Board) can review your membership application on our ML.. Becasue we couldn't have the quorum for this meeting..
<slashd> elacheche, what is the ML address and what should I put on the email ?
<elacheche> If you like to change the meeting date, so it'll be OK, otherwise I'll send the email to the board now.. Are you always on irc? If so I'll let you updated via irc, or I'll email you..
<elacheche> slashd, you should do nothing more than what you did (wiki) :)
<elacheche> It's my role to send  the mail to the ML board.
<slashd> elacheche, ok thanks. yeah let's do it by ML then, I'm always on IRC during the day
<elacheche> Great! I'll let you know if there is updates :)
<elacheche> Sorry again slashd
<slashd> elacheche, much appreciated
<Kilos> sjoe
<Kilos> there i set auto join
<Kilos> sorry
<elacheche> :)
<elacheche> Kilos, I sent the mail to our ML :) just refresh your inbox :)
<Kilos> ok
<Kilos> hi slashd
<Kilos> sorry bout that
<Kilos> elacheche that link doesnt show sladen 's wiki link
<Kilos> shows me no applicants
<Kilos> slashd 's wiki link
<Kilos> oh there i see it sorry
<elacheche> Kilos, :D You need a nap dude! x)
<Kilos> haha man its old eye and faint print
<Kilos> oh i have read it before
<Kilos> what timezone are you in slashd ?
<slashd> kilos, eastern
<slashd> kilos, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slashd
<elacheche> I think that we ca ndo that via the ML Kilos :) We have the right to do it :)
<slashd> Kilos ^^
<Kilos> yes ty
<Kilos> canonical in the states or uk?
<elacheche> Kilos, Canonical is World Wide company :)
 * elacheche thinks that we probably should move to an other channel to chat..
<Kilos> slashd we are working on it
<slashd> Kilos, much appreciated
<Kilos> ty for your patience and sorry for our slipup
<slashd> Kilos, no worry
<wxl> slashd: morning. i just got up (i'm not normally at this meeting). i'm curious about what, if any, contributions you may have had outside the realm of development. loco activity?
<wxl> slashd: community involvement is what i'm askinng about
<wxl> sudo service slashd restart XD
<slashd> wxl, most of my contribution has been part of my work here at Canonical fixing userland/kernel issues for Ubuntu Advantage customer
<wxl> slashd: that's what i gathered. i'm just curious if there may have been anything else.
<slashd> wxl, not at the moment but it's part of my plan
<wxl> slashd: how long have you been contributing and/or when did you start at canonical?
<slashd> wxl, Canonical: 1 year and a half | Contribution: officially 6-7  months ago
<wxl> slashd: oh wow you're fairly new to the community, then
<slashd> wxl, but I run Ubuntu since Dapper in my profesionnal works and personnal computers, and have more than 10 years of experience as linux sysadmin, etc ...
<wxl> slashd: nice! you've definitely got the chops. do you also interact directly with ubuntu advantage customers and/or their employees?
<slashd> wxl, Yes I'm directly communicating with UA customer through our ticket portal and Launchpad, providing hotfixes, testfixes, and then proceed with the SRU process (userland/kernel)
<wxl> slashd: nice!
<Kilos> slashd we are getting there. board guys are all over the world
<wxl> slashd: my suggestion is to reach out to the community. find your current loco. etc. that community is a pretty vital part of what ubuntu really is (though canonical is often viewed as the umbrella over ubuntu, i really think it's the ground beneath it)
<wxl> Kilos: can you just take a +1 from me? i have to get the daughter to school XD
<slashd> wxl, sure will do that thanks
<Kilos> wxl will do
<Kilos> thanks for poppin in
<wxl> np thx Kilos
<wxl> and thx slashd for all you do. you're the first advantage employee i think i've met
<wxl> o/
<slashd> wxl, thanks again
<Kilos> slashd you still here??
<slashd> Kilos, yes
<Kilos> we seem to have arrived at a vote
<Kilos> was very difficult
<Kilos> im just waiting for last guy to join us here
<Kilos> elacheche_anis wb
<Kilos> hi toddy
<PabloRubianes> here
<toddy> hi Kilos
<Kilos> so slashd has you got your sunday best on?
<Kilos> s/has/have
<Kilos> sorry im half asleep
<slashd> Kilos, lol yes
<Kilos> good
<Kilos> any minute now the vote will be announced
<Kilos> slashd congratulations and welcome on board
<Kilos> full house of approvals
<slashd> Kilos, thanks all
<PabloRubianes> congrats slashd
<Na3iL> congrats slashd :)
<Kilos> keep up the good work and broading you field
<Kilos> broaden
<slashd> PabloRubianes, Na3iL, thanks
<Kilos> get involved in your loco and share your skills
<slashd> Kilos, sure
<slashd> will do
<Kilos> great to have you join us
<toddy> congrats slashd
<slashd> toddy, thanks
<Kilos> genii helloooo
<Kilos> slashd sorry we were so slow
<slashd> Kilos, hey no problem, I understand that
 * genii makes a fresh pot of coffee and makes sure Kilos gets a mug
<hggdh> slashd: welcome
<slashd> hggdh, thanks
<Kilos> ty genii and one for our new member please slashd
 * genii slides slashd one as well
<slashd> genii, hehe thanks
<genii> :)
<genii> slashd: ..and Congrats!
<elacheche_anis> Congrats slashd :) I already added you to the Ubuntu Members Team :) And I'm announcing the news to the news team in a minute :)
<slashd> elacheche_anis, thanks
<Kilos> ty elacheche_anis
<Kilos> ok night all. sleep time in za
<daker> bug 1000000
<ubottu> bug 1000000 in Edubuntu "For every bug on Launchpad, 67 iPads are sold." [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1000000
<genii> heh, triaged
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-21
<sladen> 9687
<Laney> 6354
<pitti> o/
<xnox> o/
<sil2100> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<barry> o/
<cyphermox> o/
 * slangasek waves
<chiluk> o/
<sil2100> Tsk tsk, slangasek broke the pattern
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 21 16:01:43 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> barry caribou xnox bdmurray sil2100 pitti infinity chiluk doko cyphermox slangasek robru tdaitx
<barry> win!
<barry> debuntu: debian bug #806824 (split libpeas for py2/py3 - waiting on debian gnome maintainers to comment); dirtbike (itp: debian bug #811110); pip 7.1.2 (ongoing)
<ubottu> Debian bug 806824 in src:libpeas "libpeas: Split Python 2 and 3 support" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/806824
<ubottu> Debian bug 811110 in wnpp "ITP: dirtbike -- convert installed Python packages to wheels" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/811110
<barry> virtual sprint: working on various debci/autopkgtest.u.c tasks (e.g. retry server; LP: #1519894)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1519894 in Auto Package Testing "add JSON output for queued and running tests" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1519894
<barry> other: booked pycon 2016 trip.
<barry> --done--
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou> - rsyslog fails to start under upstart : Provided workaround
<caribou> - DMB : Voted +4 for Core Dev Rights
<caribou> - LP #1532146 - initramfs-tools nvme support
<caribou>   apw is preparing upload
<caribou> - LP #1528101 - vm.min_free_kbytes crash issues
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1532146 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "update-initramfs fails for MODULES=dep when root is on nvme device" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1532146
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1528101 in linux (Ubuntu) "ISST-LTE: kdump failed: second kernel booting hangs after /scripts/init-bottom when large min_free_kbytes value being set" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1528101
<bdmurray> caribou: congrats!
<caribou> - LP #1534106 - rsyslog segfault with juju
<caribou> - LP #1535898 - multipath-tools segfault on Precise
<caribou>   cyphermox identified potential fix. User is testing
<caribou> - Nut merge : Need to revisit changelog once again
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1534106 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "rsyslogd crashed with SIGSEGV with juju-local configuration" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1534106
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535898 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Precise) "Trusty & Vivid multipath-tools (multipathd) seg-fault core dump" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535898
<sil2100> caribou: congratulations!
<caribou> Project:
<caribou> - clvm/dlm supportability
<caribou>   clvm to be demoted to Universe for 16.04
<caribou> bdmurray: sil2100: thanks!
<caribou> â Done
<tdaitx> caribou, sweet! congrats! =)
<xnox> applied branding to zipl-installer, ubuntu-cdimage
<xnox> tought cloud-utils about s390x
<xnox> fixed a few FTBFS for golang 1.6
<xnox> validated that lxd, docker.io
<xnox> resolved a few raised question, raised my own questions and got answers for them
<xnox> fought with simplestreams, and got them to work somewhat (report to follow)
<xnox> discussed image testing with CPC
<xnox> discussed image installation with a few people -> i have an action plan
<xnox> trying to find a place where to publish things with #is
<xnox> libica is waiting in new
<xnox> EOF
<xnox> * also branding for d-i
<bdmurray> tested staging update of daisy code (good)
<bdmurray> uploaded xenial fix for app-install-data-partner bug LP: #1531194
<xnox> * lxd, docker.io... work correctly
<bdmurray> investigation into ubuntu-release-upgrader test failure
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1531194 in app-install-data-partner (Ubuntu Xenial) "13.04 "raring-partner" channel included in 14.04/15.04/15.10/16.04" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1531194
<bdmurray> investigation into dist-upgrade failure from T to V
<slangasek> caribou: indeed, congrats!
<bdmurray> virtual sprint regarding proposed migration                                                                                                               modified debci title pages to more informative to make browser history better
<caribou> tdaitx: slangasek: thank you
<bdmurray> modified debci not to use the rabbitmq management plugin
<bdmurray> modified proposed-migration deployment scripts to not setup management plugin
<bdmurray> â done
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - system-image code cleanup, more testing
<sil2100> - Writing up a few additional utility tools to the landing-team-tools
<sil2100> - OTA-9: * Landing coordination, helping in verifying some issues * Snapshot preparation in the stable-snapshot, image copies and tagging * Re-spinning candidate images with missing fixes and language-packs
<sil2100> - xenial - vivid-overlay delta: * Documented findings, e-mail sent to team leads * Started poking individual upstreams about shrinking the delta
<sil2100> - Poked kernel team about the missing ppp-modules for s390x
<sil2100> - Merged isdnutils to further unblock ppp - all migrated
<sil2100> - Filling RT for access to macquarie
<sil2100> - Plans regarding future touch hardware enablement
<sil2100> - Packaging reviews for dual-landing-enablement merges
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> Uh, some newlines got truncated, oh well
<pitti> ]autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Fix implementation of rw-build-tree (#1535234)
<pitti>  - Get the right source package version with apt pinning for linux
<pitti>  - Make deployment work with juju-local, Canonistack and null runner, for easy local testing
<pitti>  - Further debug arm64 breakage in scalingstack (#1531768), ongoing
<pitti>  - Help didrocks with running ubuntu-make upstream tests on autopkgtest CI
<pitti> proposed-migration sprint: since Tuesday, still ongoing until tonight; see http://pad.ubuntu.com/autopkgtest-sprint, will blog about results tomorrow
<pitti> distro:
<pitti>  - merge debhelper, sort out dbgsym fallout (#1535949)
<pitti>  - libvirt: Don't stop guests during upgrade (#1533839)
<pitti>  - Debug juju-local failure after reboot, file #1536522
<pitti>  - Fix user lxc containers on wily with xenial kernel (#1533833)
<pitti>  - postgresql-9.5 transition, finished now (a few unmaintained modules demoted into -proposed)
<pitti> END
<xnox> infinity is out.
<xnox> chiluk,
<chiluk> Mostly distracted with non-public issues.
<chiluk> LP #1535349 - Have reviewed changes, and working on likely fix.  I expect to find time to do that today.
<chiluk> --done--
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535349 in coreutils (Ubuntu Trusty) "`df /dev/sda1` no longer reports information for /dev/sda1" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535349
<cyphermox> chiluk: great
<chiluk> yeah stuff got busy this week.
<doko> - work on two more Linaro GCC regressions, this starts costing time
<doko> - work on python3.4 removal
<doko> - work on ruby2.1 removal
<doko> - pkgbinarymangler fun, introduced by debhelper merge
<doko> - ongoing GCC 6 packaging work
<doko> - fix some cross toolchain installation errors, recently introduced
<doko> - backport a go patch to allow handling of pkg-config directives in gccgo
<doko> - work on petsc/slepc/mpich/source-highlight transitions
<doko> - merges, sphinx, python-networkx, numpy & co
<slangasek> sil2100: ah, glad that ppp migrated (and a kernel with it) :)
<doko> - openjdk-9 update, building on all archs
<doko> - new swig upstream
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox>  - partman-efi SRUs for bug LP: #1512589
<cyphermox>  - fixed error with leases file from isc-dhcp merge
<cyphermox>  - partman-prep SRU for bug LP: #1487365
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1512589 in OEM Priority Project trusty "partman-efi should follow partman-auto/disk to reuse the ESP." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512589
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1487365 in partman-prep (Ubuntu Trusty) "Ubuntu14.04 .3 RAID installation fails on firestone" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1487365
<cyphermox>  - quickly prepared proposed fix for bug LP: #1318875 since I had some background on it
<cyphermox>  - investigated some server install preseeding issues for server image QA
<cyphermox>  - testing multipath-tools update for async device detection
<cyphermox>    - trying to switch multipath-tools to run multipathd in initramfs.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1318875 in unity-control-center (Ubuntu) "Airplane mode cannot save the previous status after reboot" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1318875
<cyphermox>  - debugging multipath-tools crashes on precise/trusty with caribou
<cyphermox>  - MIR review: pyotherside
<cyphermox> (done)
<tdaitx> doko, did you fix the openjdk 9 build or the update already contained the fix?
<sil2100> slangasek: yeah ;) Thanks for poking me quickly when it got stuck after the new kernel upload
<sil2100> slangasek: isdnutils was on my list of rdeps but I see it now as marked as 'unneeded' and I can't recall why I marked it so
<sil2100> Invalidly
<slangasek>  * short week, national holiday on Monday
<slangasek>  * sorting out coverage while I'm out next month
<slangasek>  * looking at a regression in apt auto-removal of kernels, looks like an upstream apt change (LP: #1440608)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1440608 in apt (Ubuntu) "/etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal wants to remove all kernels except the latest one" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1440608
<slangasek>  * MP reviews for debian-cd for s390x
<slangasek>  * merge reviews: nut, golang 1.5
<slangasek>  * discussions around tpm2.0 support for 16.04
<slangasek>  * working on the P7 machine deprecation
<sil2100> slangasek: while we're at it, what about the removal of unneeded devices from our system-image servers?
<robru> lp:britney
<robru> * disabled Heidi output to save a few hundred MB of disk space
<robru> * started working on a web interface for retrying autopkgtests
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * fix a pile of small bugs
<robru> * new /v1/comments API for searching comments
<robru> (done)
<tdaitx> * Backported OpenJDK 8u71 security patches to OpenJDK 7; package build & tested for Xenial on a private PPA; backports for supported distros for the security team prepared and build locally; dropped after IcedTea 2.6.4 release
<tdaitx> * Initial work on backporting OpenJDK 8u71 to OpenJDK 6, talking to Andrew to check how I can help with IcedTea 1.13.10
<tdaitx> * Updated OpenJDK 7 from 7u91-2.6.3-3 to 7u95-2.6.4
<tdaitx>    - Xenial 7u95-2.6.4-0ubuntu1; waiting doko review
<tdaitx>    - Wily, Vivid, Trusty, and Precise packages build for the security team
<sil2100> slangasek: should I just go on and remove manta for instance (with a proper announcement of course)? Pat is +1 on that
<tdaitx>    - available @ https://launchpad.net/~tdaitx/+archive/ubuntu/openjdk/+packages
<tdaitx> * Trying to catch up with the autopkgtest sprint
<tdaitx> * Often moving to a coffee shop for some free internet leeching while my ISP struggles to provide any service at all
<tdaitx> * Preparing to travel to FOSDEM and a short vacation at Stuttgart afterward; planning fun stuff to do (openjdk stuff, drinking belgian&german beer, exit games, snow shoveling, and whatnot)
<tdaitx> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100: did you have a list of those from the product side that were agreed already that should be removed? I don't remember
 * sil2100 likes the new bileto comments API
<sil2100> Just need to re-write my scripts to use that
<slangasek> robru: a few hundred MB of disk space> is that per silo?  (also, I guess the time saved per run is important)
<doko> tdaitx, go ahead
<sil2100> slangasek: no official list, we only discussed that on the RTM status meetings and so far agreed on getting rid of manta for now, the rest needs to stay until... well, a certain time
<slangasek> sil2100: sure, go ahead with removing manta :)
<sil2100> Ok, thanks
<slangasek> OK, any questions re: status?
<tdaitx> doko, thanks =)
<doko> pitti, xnox: will you enable automatic autopkg testing for golang packages? same as for ruby
<pitti> I don't plan to write autopkgtests for Go packages
<xnox> doko, my plate is a bit full at the moment.
<pitti> if someone does, we'll run them of course
<xnox> doko, what do you have in mind? dh_auto_test -v ? for them all?
<tdaitx> doko, regarding openjdk 9, updating it was enough to fix the build? or did you have to fix it yourself?
<xnox> doko, as in, a blanket test (the fancy way to cover a class of tests)
<robru> slangasek: no it saves something like 20mb pet silo IIRC
<slangasek> robru: ok. any noticeable improvement in britney runtime?
<doko> xnox, I haven't looked how ruby is doing it. but now after the sprint there must be a whole lot of experts =)
<robru> slangasek: haven't looked that closely yet
<xnox> doko, hahahah. note, that i'm not the doctor!
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<robru> slangasek: actually (unscientific) it looks like the per-silo run time of britney is down from 4 minutes to 3 minutes, but it's not clear to me how much of that is attributable to just disabling heidi vs other factors (i highly doubt writing a file takes a full minute)
<robru> they were big files though
<slangasek> robru: it has to generate the contents of that file, not just write it
<slangasek> or did you only eliminate the writing part?
<robru> slangasek: nah the contents of the file are still generated and needed, all we disabled was the writing to disk
<pitti> we can't eliminiate the internal dicts of sources and binaries, britney needs those
<pitti> write_heidi() just dumps those out as text files; not much computation, just lots of data
<slangasek> robru, pitti: ahhh ok, I was thinking of update_output instead
<slangasek> which is the second processing pass that we should skip
<pitti> we already diabled that a while ago
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> then nevermind :)
<robru> pitti: oh we did?
<pitti> robru: yes, you mailed me about it :)
<robru> pitti: https://requests.ci-train.ubuntu.com/static/britney/index.txt still shows output.txt. I have no recollection of disabling that.
<slangasek> "update_output.txt"
<slangasek> ?
<pitti> the second-stage installability test
<pitti> timestamp: Fri 2015-12-18 16:37:23 +0100
<pitti>  Skip second-stage upgrade testing if UPGRADE_OUTPUT option is absent or empty
<slangasek> hmm, sure enough the output.txt are the update_output files
<slangasek> anyway
<slangasek> sounds like something we can diagnose out of the meeting
<robru> UPGRADE_OUTPUT    = /tmp/britney_output/%(SERIES)/@PPA@/output.txt
<slangasek> and it doesn't sound like there's any other business?
<robru> ok
<pitti> robru: perhaps you didn't drop UPGRADE_OUTPUT?
<pitti> ah
<slangasek> xnox: just assigned you a bug about reusing a DASD for install, clearly they should just be using ASDF instead
<slangasek> robru: right, so you can omit that because it's not needed/used for bileto and just adds extra processing time
<xnox> slangasek, i think ASDF is not this https://youtu.be/WTUnwygoFsU
<slangasek> (maybe a little, maybe a lot)
<slangasek> xnox: ummm ok
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 21 16:28:15 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-21-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<barry> thanks!
<caribou> slangasek: thanks!
<doko> thanks, nurse xnox ...
<tdaitx> thanks!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<sil2100> o/
<xnox> tah
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-22
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-23
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-16
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Do we have quorum today? Who's here?
<rbasak> micahg said he's double booked but will try to be around. Anyone else?
<cyphermox> yeah, I'm htere.
<cyphermox> if you give me 5 minutes I could be even more here.
<cyphermox> nobody else showed up I guess?
<micahg> too many skipped meetings in between I guess
<cyphermox> ok
<chiluk> rbasak cyphermox... so I guess I got postponed till the 30th?
<chiluk> early morning on Monday on an American holiday makes it pretty hard to get quorum
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-17
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 17 16:00:24 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<cpaelzer> o/
<rbasak> o/
<powersj> o/
<jgrimm> o/
<rbasak> caribou isn't around for long, so let's start with his item.
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<rbasak> caribou: over to you!
<caribou> wow that was quick
<jgrimm> heh
<caribou> let me break the list so I don't flood the channel :
<cpaelzer> that sounds like a lot going on
<caribou> LP: #1298061 - (nova) nova should allow evacuate for an instance in the Error state
<caribou> LP: #1356211 - (sosreport) cannot collect rotated syslog.1
<caribou> LP: #1366103 - (sosreport) sosreport doesn't collect all data from /etc/apparmor.d/
<caribou> LP: #1447695 - (sosreport) sosreport 3.2 does not collect systemd information
<caribou> LP: #1447715 - (ifupdown) dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1298061 in nova (Ubuntu Trusty) "nova should allow evacuate for an instance in the Error state" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1298061
<caribou> LP: #1579609 - (os-prober) os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption
<caribou> LP: #1605243 - (sosreport) iscsi initiator related configs and logs are not recorded
<caribou> LP: #1614052 - (sosreport) SOSREPORT need to collect OPAL msglog
<caribou> LP: #1621340 - (multipath-tools) [SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1356211 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "cannot collect rotated syslog.1" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1356211
<caribou> LP: #1640382 - (qemu) Segfault event notifier because of race condition
<caribou> LP: #1640676 - (libvirt) [SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances
<caribou> LP: #1642903 - (systemd) introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives
<caribou> LP: #1647485 - (systemd) NVMe symlinks broken by devices with spaces in model or serial strings
<caribou> LP: #1648901 - (krb5) SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1366103 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "sosreport doesn't collect all data from /etc/apparmor.d/" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1366103
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447695 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "sosreport 3.2 does not collect systemd information" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447695
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<caribou> The first nova SRU does't really belong here though
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579609 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579609
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1605243 in sosreport (Ubuntu Yakkety) "iscsi initiator related configs and logs are not recorded" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1605243
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1614052 in sosreport (Ubuntu Yakkety) "SOSREPORT need to collect OPAL msglog" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1614052
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621340 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621340
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640382 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1642903 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1642903
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647485 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "NVMe symlinks broken by devices with spaces in model or serial strings" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647485
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648901 in krb5 (Ubuntu Xenial) "SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648901
<caribou> been doing some work on sosreport today to catch up with old issues
<caribou> that's about it
<cpaelzer> I heard that coreycb looks into sponsoring the nova one
<rbasak> Thanks caribou!
<rbasak> Does anyone have any questions?
<jgrimm> nope
<cpaelzer> checking on bugs
<cpaelzer> I think I heard of all I'm affected already
<cpaelzer> here
<cpaelzer> bug 1640676
<ubottu> bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<cpaelzer> caribou: what is left to do there
<cpaelzer> it is rather unclear on this one
<caribou> cpaelzer: I will have to check on this one
<cpaelzer> It was targetted for kilo UCA
<cpaelzer> TBC is if that should go to trusty
<cpaelzer> if so let Hua calrify and prep a debdiff I can review test and sponsor
<cpaelzer> otherwise et him set the incomplete trusty to won't fix if that is ok
<caribou> cpaelzer: the Trusty target might be there only to allow for UCA SRU; I'll check with him
<cpaelzer> great
<caribou> rbasak: can you please add an action for me on this ?
<cpaelzer> rbasak: caribou: bug 1640382 was sponsored and verified, wait migration
<ubottu> bug 1640382 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<caribou> rbasak: ok, I'll clear the tag
<cpaelzer> anything caribou or xtrusia can do to track or speed up migration?
<rbasak> caribou: sure. What should it say exactly? I'm not sure I follow.
<caribou> rbasak: [ACTION] caribou to verify with Huang if the Trusty Target is still required for bug 1640676
<ubottu> bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<rbasak> #action caribou to verify with Huang if the Trusty Target is still required for bug 1640676
<meetingology> ACTION: caribou to verify with Huang if the Trusty Target is still required for bug 1640676
<cpaelzer> caribou: and finally for bug 1621340 I'll upload multipath in about 1.5 weeks from now as-is - or with some tweaks - depends if rbasak or cyphermox can find time for a deeper review
<ubottu> bug 1621340 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621340
<caribou> cpaelzer: good to know, thanks!
 * cpaelzer stops stalling this now
<cpaelzer> but I wanted to help syncing on that
<caribou> :)
<caribou> tbh, this is what this list is for
<rbasak> #info cpaelzer will upload multipath in about 1.5 weeks from now
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> #info There were no action points from the previous meeting.
<rbasak> #topic Development Release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Development Release
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<rbasak> #info About a month to feature freeze now. I know we still have a bunch of outstanding work items for feature freeze, including merges.
<jgrimm>  cpaelzer is working on qemu
<rbasak> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<rbasak> Any comments?
<jgrimm> actively
<rbasak> I'm nearly done with squid.
<jgrimm> \o/
<rbasak> I've been working with Lars upstream and we've merged mysql-5.7 and mysql-defaults now. They're not migrated yet - big dep8 backlog.
<jgrimm> we've gotten a bunch of the more complicated ones done, or in progress. that's a very nice place to be one month out
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<rbasak> powersj: o/
<cpaelzer> just marked dovecot (done) and removed the duplicate on tgt 8done as well)
<powersj> Last week lots of cloud-init work in the form of getting ready to add the KVM backend to the integration tests (thanks again for the input on that), reviewing Wes' merge request, and working on unit tests.
<powersj> This week is a short one for me so the plan is to review Wesley's latest merge request, review some jenkins failures, and spend more time on unit tests and trying to wrap up bug triage of 2016.
<powersj> questions? comments?
<jgrimm> powersj, ppc64el smoketest gating?
<cpaelzer> powersj: just FYI to everybody I was hacking a bit on the ppc qmeu migration tests
<powersj> jgrimm: no still waiting on RT to gain access to jenkins
<cpaelzer> not yet fully functioning, will work with powersj on it but at low/medium prio for now
<powersj> cpaelzer: yeah saw, but haven't read, your email yet :P
<jgrimm> powersj, ok, you may want to ping that RT
<powersj> jgrimm: will do (did once last week) I think I need to get thepriority raised again
<jgrimm> thanks
<rbasak> #info ppc64el smoketest gating is blocked on infrastructure
<rbasak> #info cpaelzer has been working on the ppc qmeu migration tests
<rbasak> Thanks powersj!
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Nothing to report (guess kernel version 4.9 in zesty is old news, target for zesty is 4.10). Are there any questions?
<rbasak> #info Target for zesty is 4.10
<caribou> smb: would be good to find someone to look after the crash pkg
<smb> caribou, Oh right
<caribou> smb: current version fails to open 4.8 & newer kernels
<caribou> smb: I got a debdiff ready for this, but it still needs some loving care
<smb> caribou, Point me to the debdiff and I look who could handle it
<caribou> LP: #1655625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1655625 in makedumpfile (Ubuntu Xenial) "ISST-LTE:pVM:roselp4:ubuntu 16.04.2: vmcore cannot be analysed by crash" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1655625
<caribou> smb: I'll wave at you once I get everything ready
<smb> caribou, ok, thanks
<caribou> smb: newer crash will still need merging in zesty otherwise it'll bite us
<smb> yeah, I can believe that
<rbasak> OK, thanks all!
<rbasak> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<rbasak> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<rbasak> Anything to mention?
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rbasak> Anything to mention?
<rbasak> I know FOSDEM is coming up. Anyone going?
<jgrimm> lxd team
<rbasak> Great. Thanks jgrimm!
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<jgrimm> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2017-January/039643.html
<jgrimm> anyone give this any thought yet? ^^
<rbasak> #info RFC: proposal to remove net-tools from ubuntu-minimal
<rbasak> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2017-January/039643.html
<rbasak> I don't see any issue with it.
<rbasak> I'm sure we'll have users complaining ifconfig doesn't work come the next LTS, but they will still be able to install it manually.
<jgrimm> may have to double check our packages for correct dependencies
<cpaelzer> what would you think of a ifconfig semi-compat wrapper
<cpaelzer> as an alternative when net-tools are not installed
<rbasak> That's basically what ifconfig already is, no?
<cpaelzer> hehe
<jgrimm> heh
<cpaelzer> I thought a <1k script that makes "please use this instead" or so
<cpaelzer> maybe not worth the effort
<rbasak> command-not-found should still work.
<rbasak> $ sudo ifconfig ...
<cpaelzer> just came to my mind reading (and I agree) "we'll have users complaining ifconfig doesn't work come the next LTS"
<jgrimm> right
<rbasak> "Please install net-tools"
<cpaelzer> that is the problem
<cpaelzer> I'd like to see
<cpaelzer> $ sudo ifconfig
<cpaelzer> "Please install net-tools or better ise the ip suite see XYZ"
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, command-not-found not sufficient?
<cpaelzer> for deprecated things it lacks a way to "announce" the successor
<rbasak> I wonder if cnf can handle custom messages.
<rbasak> If not, perhaps that's a feature request for it?
<jgrimm> ah
<rbasak> A similar thing for /usr/bin/python might be appropriate too.
<smoser> i think a deprecated message might be better placed in the thing itself
<smoser> rather than in some thing unrelated
<smoser> ie
<smoser> $ sudo ifconfiug
<smoser> $ sudo ifconfig
<smoser> <cnf says 'install ifconfig witih net-tools'>
<rbasak> Let's take this to the ubuntu-devel ML.
<smoser> $ sudo apt-get install net-tools
<jgrimm> +1
<jgrimm> rbasak, ^^
<smoser> $ ifconfig
<smoser> <stderr>: this is deprecated
<smoser> ...
<smoser> i'm fine to take to ml, just finishing my thought,.
<jgrimm> yep! all good
<rbasak> smoser: I agree with your proposed UX; I just think that the implementation could be inside cnf.
<rbasak> Anyway.
 * rbasak loses the agenda
<rbasak> Ah
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<rbasak> #info Next meeting: Tue Jan 24 16:00:00 UTC 2017
<rbasak> #info Next chair: jamespage
<rbasak> (says the rota)
<rbasak> Thanks all!
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 17 16:32:37 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-17-16.00.moin.txt
<jgrimm> thanks rbasak
<cpaelzer> thanks rbasak
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-19
<sil2100> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<barry> o/
<chiluk> o\
 * xnox is flashing UEFI firmware.... once that is done will join voice
 * slangasek waves
<chiluk> must be nice xnox....
<xnox> 75% now =)
<xnox> Main USB Type-C Controller 1
<chiluk> I'm assuming you are doing that on your awesome Dell that's able to do it from within the OS.
<xnox> yes
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 19 16:03:48 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<cyphermox> kind of wondering why that's required for audio?
<slangasek> chiluk: able to /initiate/ it from the OS, I think you mean :)
<xnox> chiluk, but it kind of does reboot system into the UEFI egg, hence can't do anything
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<gaughen> o/
<slangasek> barry caribou infinity doko mwhudson xnox chiluk slangasek tdaitx bdmurray robru cyphermox sil2100
<chiluk> oh yeah forgot about that xnox.. still slick.
<barry> win!
<sil2100> Damn, I won...
<barry> no meeting last week, so 2-week status
<barry> python-webencodings 0.5-2; python-persistent 4.2.2-1; various other debian things; html5lib/python-bleach regressions - will be looking at proposed branch to regress html5lib to seven-9s version (test w/pip); python-pip 9.0.1-2 (fixes python3.6 compat); python-mode 1:6.2.3-1
 * sil2100 hates being last, needs to wait so long for his turn
<barry> network-manager still has not promoted due to systemd regression; looked at LP: #1647031 (still cannot reproduce locally due to kvm crash *inside* virt-qemu); i think this is not related to network-manager but a more general systemd regression (i think pitti confirmed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647031 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-resolvedâs 127.0.0.53 server does not follow CNAME records" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647031
<chiluk> way better than lenovo that requires a CD-ROM... *(seriously I tried a usb stick).
<barry> ubuntu-image: released 0.14 to subsume 0.13; contains several autopkgtest fixes; still need to q/a the SRUs & snap; LP: #1650402; LP: #1655735; various housekeeping; LP: #1656371; LP: #1656391;
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1650402 in Ubuntu Image "Add CI for Python 3.6" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1650402
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1655735 in linux (Ubuntu) "Incompatible libdevmapper 1.02.136 (2016-11-05) and kernel driver (unknown version)." [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1655735
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1656371 in Ubuntu Image "Sparse file unittests fail on zfs" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1656371
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1656391 in Ubuntu Image "mount autopkgtest failure in lxc container" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1656391
<barry> looked at autopkgtest-buildvm-ubuntu-cloud problems, but it only occurred on yakkety and i've since upgraded all machines to zesty; debian bug #783202
<ubottu> Debian bug 783202 in autopkgtest "[adt-buildvm-ubuntu-cloud] timeout nearly after display "Net device info"" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/783202
<barry> looked at nova ftbfs on trusty w/python 2.7.12-1-14.02
<barry> looked at claws-mail 3.14.1-2 promotion bug - it's caused by gpgme1.0 ftbfs (LP: #1647204)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647204 in gpgme1.0 (Ubuntu) "1.8.0-2 FTBFS in zesty 17.04" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647204
<barry> python3.6 transition work for z; ppa test rebuild begun; scripts to sync/copy/status/rebuild updated, refined, and gitified;
<barry> --done--
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou>  LP: #103690 - IBM ppc64 - crash tool does not work on 4.8 kernels
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 103690 in ndiswrapper (Ubuntu) "Ndiswrapper can't connect to WPA network using 2.6.20-14-generic on amd64 (feisty)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/103690
<caribou> merge crash tool
<caribou> Sosreport 3.3 trusty SRU
<caribou> trusty, yakkety & xenial actually
<caribou> Sponsor slashd krb5 SRU for LP: #1648901
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648901 in krb5 (Ubuntu Xenial) "SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648901
<caribou> (done)
<bdmurray> no infinity
<xnox> infinity is off...
<xnox> doko,
<doko> - finish the trusty/python 2.7 test rebuild. for now, identified python-glanceclient nova oslo.messaging glance cinder as failing. these at least need investigation
<doko> - python 3.5.3 release
<doko> - GCC: extract, reduce, forward ppc64el ICE, fixed with the next upload
<doko> - GCC: update to the 2007-01 snapshot
<doko> - next GCC update, GCC cross fixes
<doko> - some non-security openjdk-8 updates
<doko> (done)
<xnox> i guess mwhudson not here?!
<xnox> deputy systemd: integrate instead of systemd-shim hand off to tvoss et.al.
<xnox> receive bugs from tvoss et.al. about racy start of snapd units due to cgmanager
<xnox> redo deputy systemd, without conflicts with systemd-shim and without cgmanager
<xnox> stable, in unaproved queue
<xnox> fix old s390x bugs
<xnox> upload installer SRUs for 16.04.2, hopefully (most are released now, remaining netcfg is optional/cosmetic)
<barry> doko: yeah, i looked at those but it'll take a deeper dive
<xnox> refresh of merges
<xnox> Away next week, skiing in Arosa, CH
<xnox> ..
<doko> barry: coreyb already uploaded kombu to -proposed. some of these should be fixed with this upload
<barry> doko: cool
<bdmurray> chiluk: you're up
<chiluk> LP#1647389 - Deployed xenial-mitaka cloud and can now reproduce
<chiluk> LP#1655225 - Have a fix that seems to have resolved it.  Need to check debdiff, and then ready for upload/SRU
<chiluk> LP#1650067 - Having to create an original patch in order to resolve as attempts to backport patches has grown to too much change 600-700 lines.  I have hope an original patch should be much smaller.
<chiluk> --done--
<bdmurray> slangasek: your turn
<slangasek>  * short week, bank holiday Monday + sprint travel swap Tuesday
<slangasek>  * clearing downed branches from driveway and yard due to ice storm
<slangasek>  * improve kernel SRU processing: lp:~vorlon/ubuntu-archive-tools/kernel-sru-review/ now tries to auto-accept UEFI binaries for us
<slangasek>  * SRUs
<chiluk> ubotto no love?
<slangasek>   * ppc64el SRUs for 16.04.2
<slangasek>   * unpicking nvme regression between kernel and systemd
<slangasek>  * ubuntu-core candidate image builds with snapd 2.21
<slangasek> (done)
<tdaitx> = Back from vacations since Monday
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK Updates
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8
<tdaitx>   - Patches available on last Saturday
<tdaitx>   - Applied to current OpenJDK 8 package
<tdaitx>   - Updated package to 8u121 as it was released earlier
<tdaitx>   - Currently under test and looking for regressions
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 7
<tdaitx>   - started backports
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> worked with webops to requeue some old core files
<bdmurray> reported daisy bug LP: #1655145 re interrupted core file reception
<bdmurray> testing --graceful-timeout in canonistack (it works from the charm)
<bdmurray> modified daisy app charm to utilize --graceful-timeout for gunicorn
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1655145 in Daisy "interrupted core file reception results in lack of resubmission" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1655145
<bdmurray> submitted gunicron charm MP for graceful-timeout support
<bdmurray> sumitted RT 98894 regarding updating staging daisy app charm
<bdmurray> investigation into / fixing of retracer swift 404 issues
<bdmurray> worked on modifications to apport-retrace to use a gdb sandbox LP: #1517257
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1517257 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-retrace should install and use gdb for target release" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1517257
<bdmurray> research into / testing of unattended-upgrades bug LP: #1654070
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1654070 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "sanity check can fail for packages missing dependencies" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1654070
<bdmurray> wrote a bug pattern for ros upgrade failure bug LP: #1611737
<bdmurray> worked with juliank re SRU verification of LP: #1651923
<bdmurray> modified / tested Kees's gdb patch based off upstream feedback
<bdmurray> some SRU reviews with sil2100
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1611737 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Can't upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04 if ros-indigo-desktop-full or ros-indigo-perception installed from ROS servers" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611737
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1651923 in apt (Ubuntu Yakkety) "apt https method decodes redirect locations and sends them to the destination undecoded." [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1651923
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> robru: you are up
<bdmurray> cyphermox: ?
<cyphermox> yeah
<xnox> horum, never heard of ros-indigo-desktop......
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - SRU grub2 PowerNV petitboot menu fix (bug LP: #1447500)
<cyphermox> - debugging os-prober SRU output w/ slashd (bug LP: #1579609)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447500 in grub2-signed (Ubuntu Xenial) "Ubuntu creates cluttered Petitboot menu entries" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447500
<cyphermox>  - grub-installer NVMe PReP support SRU (bug LP: #1656048)
<cyphermox> - juju 2.0.2 SRU (bug LP: #1648894)
<cyphermox> yakkety:
<cyphermox> - juju 2.0.2 SRU (bug LP: #1648894)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579609 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579609
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1656048 in grub-installer (Ubuntu Xenial) "grub-installer might not install to the PReP partition of NVMe disks" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1656048
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648894 in juju-core (Ubuntu Yakkety) "[SRU] Juju 2.0.2" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648894
<cyphermox> zesty:
<cyphermox> - HTX (htxubuntu) DASD exercisers fail (bug LP: #1648561)
<cyphermox> - Juju 2.0.2 upload to zesty (bug LP: #1648894)
<cyphermox> - cluttered Petitboot menu fix in grub2 (bug LP: #1447500)
<cyphermox>   - (disabling os-prober for PowerNV)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648561 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "HTX (htxubuntu) DASD exercisers fail" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648561
<cyphermox> - debugging ubiquity-only startup
<cyphermox> - grub-installer support for PReP backing partition on NVMe (bug LP: #1656048)
<cyphermox>  - netplan bonding support
<cyphermox> - netplan bonding unit/intregration tests
<cyphermox> - reviewing ubuntu-budgie slideshow changes
<cyphermox> - ubiquity-dm panel HiDPI fixes
<cyphermox> Â±other stuff:
<cyphermox> - netplan bonding+bridging planning
<cyphermox> (done)
<doko> tdaitx: 8u121 for arm64 too? didn't see that yet
<sil2100> (one week status, forgot what was going on last week already)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination
<sil2100> - Participating in some SRU reviews
<sil2100> - walinuxagent 2.2.2:
<sil2100>   * Preparing the packaging, building test debs in PPA
<sil2100>   * Setting up an Azure account, fighting with the setup
<sil2100>   * Testing the packages on Azure VMs (basic tests)
<sil2100>   * Pushing packages to zesty, yakkety, xenial and trusty, poking for approval to -proposed
<sil2100>   * Looking into properly handling conffile defaults changes
<sil2100> - Writing up steps needed to be done when adding new flavors on a wiki
<tdaitx> doko, using 8u112 with the hotspot security patches for that, just waiting to compare build results and see if it is sane
<sil2100> - Finalizing and enabling ubuntu-personal auto daily-builds on canonistack
<sil2100> - Discussion regarding ubuntu-core image builds
<sil2100> - Looking into getting the dbus bugfix release migrated to xenial-updates
<slangasek> cyphermox: petitboot menu fix â¥
<sil2100> - Updating packageset for xubuntu
<sil2100> (done)
<cyphermox> slangasek: it should help making that not suck.
<slangasek> alrighty
<cyphermox> barry: did you have fun with systemd/network-manager? I kind of expected having to deal with that :)
<barry> cyphermox: oh, lots :(
<barry> cyphermox: let's talk after the meeting
<cyphermox> sure.
<slangasek> cyphermox: AIUI you still can deal with it, since systemd is blocking things?
<cyphermox> slangasek: yes, just need to catch up on what has been done so far.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything on status?
<cyphermox> I do need some SRU reviews.
<slangasek> cyphermox: which release / anything that warrants queue jumping?
<cyphermox> some things that would be good to have for 16.04; grub2 and grub-installer on ppc64el
 * xnox would want netcfg sru review
<cyphermox> not that it warrants queue jumping though.
<xnox> (it is small if one filterdiff -x */po/* spew from debconf-update)
<bdmurray> the queue is rather long...
<cyphermox> and the equivalent SRUs for yakkety.
<slangasek> cyphermox: I don't see grub2 in queue for xenial
<cyphermox> there's also juju-core.
<cyphermox> grub2 in xenial was already moved to proposed.
<xnox> maybe i should spend time verifying things in there, cause there is a lot of committed things, but not validated =/
<slangasek> cool; I can commit a big block of time to reviews tomorrow
<slangasek> fwiw I've done some sru releases this morning prompted by maas needing released, looks like we've had a backlog of things needing released?
<slangasek> xnox: yes, that too
<sil2100> I can also continue working on SRUs tomorrow, but still there will have to be someone to double-check them for me
<sil2100> So not much help from me yet
<slangasek> sil2100: your mentor hasn't given you the green light yet to do them on your own?
<xnox> yeah, things that got released today were all dandy =)
<cyphermox> I'll have a good look at pending-sru to see if there are things I can review that slipped through the cracks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] SRUs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: SRUs
<slangasek> ohey topic
<cyphermox> wee
<sil2100> I didn't do that many of them, some were reviewed by Robie
<sil2100> Since I overlap with him more than bdmurray usually
<bdmurray> He hasn't looked at releasing verified stuff either afaik.
<sil2100> No, that not yet, just doing UNAPPROVED reviews so far
<slangasek> sil2100: ok.  you asked me earlier about whether you should be set loose, and I said your mentor should comment; has rbasak given an indicator of what's left to do?
<bdmurray> slangasek: I think there were / are a fair number of autopkgtest failures with the SRUs
<slangasek> bdmurray: yeah, I just marked nplan bad-test in yakkety for example
<slangasek> ATM the only way those autopkgtest failures get resolved is if the sru team drives them, so...
<bdmurray> that's sad
<slangasek> bdmurray: well, nothing flags the autopkgtest failures on the bug and nobody but the sru team looks at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<slangasek> so maybe we need automation to post to the sru bugs when there are autopkgtest failures?
<bdmurray> slangasek: from sru-report or the autopkgtest infrastructure?
<slangasek> bdmurray: sru-report is probably saner
<slangasek> bdmurray: do you want to follow up on this?
<bdmurray> I'll have a think about it (the bug)
<sil2100> slangasek: let me poke Robie to see if he was happy with my SRU reviews so far
<slangasek> [ACTION] bdmurray to think about exposing autopkgtest failures on SRU bugs
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to think about exposing autopkgtest failures on SRU bugs
<slangasek> sil2100: ok, cool
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<sil2100> bdmurray: you think if Robie gives me a +1 I could at least do the UNAPPROVED ones by myself? :)
<slangasek> doko, gaughen: fwiw we need to talk about rustc... the security team tells me it's becoming a hard build-dependency for new upstream versions of firefox
<bdmurray> sil2100: Have not approved anything? If so why?
<sil2100> bdmurray: I would then poke you or him for the verified ones if I start going though them
<gaughen> ack
<sil2100> bdmurray: I was approving, but only after you or Robie double-checked them
<bdmurray> sil2100: So you haven't REJECTED anything?
<cyphermox> my AOB: if someone pings me for something and I don't respond, ping harder, I may be in the zone working on the bond and bridge support for netplan.
<doko> slangasek: yes, I expected something like this ... that's why I updated it. only problem ... doesn't yet exist for armhf. maybe it will with the next release
<cyphermox> (ie. telegram beeps on my phone)
<sil2100> bdmurray: not yet actually, not besides the ones that were superseeded (like the ubuntu-image ones)
<slangasek> doko: right.  but I guess we need to SRU this all the way back to trusty as well
<doko> slangasek: the good thing is that we already have the regular llvm updates ...
<bdmurray> sil2100: I think its important to have an understanding of what types of things cause a reject.
<doko> ahh, not yet 3.9 ... so we to convince the mesa maintainers =)
<xnox> do we support firefox/armhf on trusty?!
<sil2100> bdmurray: agreed
<slangasek> xnox: we don't have *any* rustc package in trusty
<slangasek> xnox: and in xenial, we only have it on amd64 + i386
<sil2100> bdmurray: yeah, didn't have any packages that would warrant a reject - ubuntu-image had issues that I found and pointed out and reuploaded, but that was just it
<bdmurray> sil2100: I guess when I look at the queue today and find things to reject I could send them your way, but then you'd know to look real carefully!
<slangasek> so it's a bit of a mess, given that the firefox package does exist on other archs in previous LTSes
<xnox> as in i thought trusty should be red herring as there is no armhf desktop platform with X stack that can run firefox.
<xnox> (w.r.t. lack of armhf in rustc)
<xnox> =?
<xnox> =/
<slangasek> well, as I said, armhf is not specifically the issue
<slangasek> ok... anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 19 16:39:08 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-19-16.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all
<caribou> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<sil2100> bdmurray: would be grateful! No worries, I'll poke more experienced players when only I see something fishy
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-18
<rbalint> o/
<philroche> \o
<xnox> o
<xnox> /o\
<xnox> \o/
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<cyphermox> let's dance
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 18 16:02:32 2018 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther juliank)
<cyphermox> fginther sil2100 tribaal mwhudson Odd_Bloke philroche slangasek bdmurray juliank infinity rcj xnox doko rbalint tdaitx cyphermox
<fginther> winning!
<fginther> * Off Monday
<fginther> * Further work publishing images to resolve CVE-2017-5754
<fginther> * Dove into how we create and maintain query data for a couple of reviews
<fginther> * Investigated a memory issue with some of our jenkins slaves
<ubottu> Systems with microprocessors utilizing speculative execution and indirect branch prediction may allow unauthorized disclosure of information to an attacker with local user access via a side-channel analysis of the data cache. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-5754)
<fginther> (done)
<fginther> sil2100, your turn
<sil2100> Oh!
<sil2100> - Kernel respin SRUs - lots
<sil2100> - Switching on langpack generation for bionic
<sil2100> - Regular SRU reviews/releases
<sil2100> - Improving the kernel-sru-review tool to perform a master-kernel diff if present
<sil2100> - Implementing and preparing an exclusion list of d-i packages for merge KPIs
<sil2100> - Familiarizing with the process of system installations through d-i
<sil2100> - Investigating vt.handoff, trying to fix server netboot installs being crap
<sil2100> - Some preparations for 16.04.4 (HWE stack shepherding etc.)
<sil2100> (done)
<cyphermox> tribaal: ?
<sil2100> I guess tribaal is off sick
<cyphermox> yeah
<sil2100> He didn't feel too good in the morning
<philroche> He's out and Odd_Bloke and mwhudson too. I'll go
<cyphermox> philroche:
<philroche> * Meltdown CVE cloud images work
<philroche> * Preparation for Spectre CVE
<philroche> * Cloud image build system maintenance
<philroche> (done)
<philroche> bdmurray: next
<bdmurray> been out sick for off and on
<bdmurray> modifications to the mojo spec for the Error Tracker based on reviewer feedback
<bdmurray> set Ubuntu 17.04 to End of Life in meta-release files and Error Tracker
<bdmurray> submitted, tested RT re staging update of errors code in Error Tracker
<bdmurray> replied to MP re the Ubuntu Error Tracker mojo spec
<bdmurray> submitted, tested RT re production update of errors code in Error Tracker
<bdmurray> upgraded desktop to bionic
<bdmurray> investigation into apport bug LP: #1739532 (username scrubbing)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1739532 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-collect SHOULD prune out /home/%USER/ from JournalErrors" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1739532
<bdmurray> reported apport bug LP: #1743906 after testing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1743906 in Apport "crash reports owned by root not anonymized well" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1743906
<bdmurray> done
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> since last week:
<juliank> * merges (7): ncurses, newt, gpgme1.0, popularity-contest, cryptsetup, xapian-bindings, coreutils
<juliank> * sponsors (1): lowmem
<juliank> * syncs (3): ipset, libsecret, ndisc6
<juliank> * uploads: parted (bug 1737144, forwarded), ubuntu-release-upgrader (bug 1695666)
<juliank> * made add-apt-repository run update (review pending)
<ubottu> bug 1737144 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[18.04 FEAT] Upgrade parted to use latest fdasd/vtoc code base from s390-tools" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1737144
<juliank> * apt: added support for inrelease-path for image building (idea cjwatson)
<ubottu> bug 1695666 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Artful) "users shoot themselves in the foot by removing /boot/efi from /etc/fstab; u-r-u should warn and refuse to let them upgrade" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1695666
<juliank> * MoM: merged a patch, and trying to fix it to not apply patches (https://code.launchpad.net/~juliank/merge-o-matic/skip-patches/+merge/336267)
<juliank> * multipath-tools situation is starting to clear up, gotta figure out if we want 0.7.4 or not (SUSE does not, thinks it might be to unstable), and auto discovery
<juliank> plans:
<juliank> * more merges (zsh, wpa)
<juliank> * finalize multipath-tools
<juliank> * ???
<juliank> * apt automatic safe-autoremoval for kernel and oldlib or stuff
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> infinity does not seem here
<cyphermox> juliank: yay for wpa
<rcj> * Off Monday
<rcj> * Continued publication work for CVE-2017-5754 (Meltdown)
<ubottu> Systems with microprocessors utilizing speculative execution and indirect branch prediction may allow unauthorized disclosure of information to an attacker with local user access via a side-channel analysis of the data cache. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-5754)
<rcj> * Code reviews
<rcj> * Shut down Zesty cloud-image build environment
<rcj> (done)
<xnox> Did a few merges; Merged openssl; Almost done with plymouth merge, loving hidpi. (done)
<sil2100> Yay for plymouth
<cyphermox> doko: ?
<rbalint> doko is out, i think
<juliank> is on vac
<juliank> ?
<cyphermox> ah
<cyphermox> rbalint: your turn then
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * Debian uploads:
<rbalint>   - wireshark new upstream, fixing old behaviour of enabling BPF JIT which
<rbalint>     possibly made systems vulnerable to some Spectre exploit variants
<rbalint> * nfs-utils: upload to fix lintian error + LP: #1709129
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1709129 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "Please drop patch 20-ticket-expired-error.patch" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1709129
<rbalint> * update-manager & ubuntu-release-upgrader:
<rbalint>   - refined fix for LP: #1732185 + SRUs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1732185 in update-manager (Ubuntu Artful) "do-release-upgrade crashed with SIGSEGV under wayland" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1732185
<rbalint>   - further update-manager fixes including LP: #1624644 which is in progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1624644 in update-manager (Ubuntu Artful) "By default settings unattended-upgrade does not automatically remove packages that become unused in conjunction with updating by other software" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1624644
<rbalint> * uploaded merges:
<rbalint>   - procps
<rbalint>   - sudo
<rbalint> (done)
<cyphermox> tdaitx: ?
<tdaitx> Short(ish) week: working half days past week
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8 & 9 security updates (ongoing tests + verifying test results)
<tdaitx> * Backporting OpenJDK 8 security updates to OpenJDK 7
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> - debug captive portal DNS issues caused by EDNS0 fail (bug LP: #1727237)
<cyphermox> - snap MIR doc
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1727237 in systemd (Ubuntu Bionic) "systemd-resolved is not finding a domain" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1727237
<cyphermox> - shim SRUs, grub updates for Mok/fb binaries renamed
<cyphermox> - discussed grub-installer splash/quiet/handoff with Lukasz
<cyphermox> - netplan: rework CLI command parsing to extend for the next features
<cyphermox> - netplan: improving on routes configuration
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> should we do the tracking bugs? since half of the time isn't there...
<cyphermox> bdmurray: what do you think?
<cyphermox> s/time/team/
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I think we can pass
<rcj> HIGHLIGHT: Follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/KnowledgeBase/SpectreAndMeltdown for up-to-date information regarding Spectre and Meltdown issues
<cyphermox> rcj: thanks
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<cyphermox> is there AOB?
<bdmurray> Not from me
<cyphermox> alrighty
<cyphermox> thanks all!
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 18 16:13:15 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-01-18-16.02.moin.txt
<sil2100> cyphermox: thanks for chairing!
<sil2100> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-19
<Ender948> Hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-20
<eviscere> hi, is there a good lxde channel on this server? i cannot seem to find one
<sarnold> eviscere: there's a #lubuntu channel that might do the trick?
<eviscere> i'm there already. 22 ppl. all asleep :-p
<sarnold> makes sense, europe's asleep, north america getting there.. and it's already weekend in australia and they're probably hungover still, right? :)
<eviscere> true, lol. tho the hungover bit is likely M-F, S+S too :-p
<sarnold> hehehe
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-14
<rbasak> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> Who's here?
<rbasak> One more needed for quorum.
<jbicha> o/
<rbasak> (in addition to jbicha)
<jbicha> o\
<tsimonq2> Hi.
<tsimonq2> Quorum? :)
<rbasak> Yes!
<rbasak> Quorum achieved before the five minute mark.
<rbasak> Is that a record? :)
<rbasak> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 14 15:05:14 2019 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<tsimonq2> :D
<rbasak> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<rbasak> rbasak to close ddstreet's application
 * rbasak looks
<rbasak> Yes, that's done.
<rbasak> tsimonq2 to make ACL changes for tdaitx's successful application
<tsimonq2> Done.
<rbasak> tsimonq2 to announce tdaitx's successful application
<tsimonq2> Done as well.
<rbasak> I don't see a mail closing the devel-permissions@ thread
<rbasak> I think you announced to ubuntu-devel@ though?
 * rbasak points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_a_successful_application
<tsimonq2> I believe so.
<tsimonq2> Oops, sorry.
<rbasak> cyphermox to handle the recent three packageset requests
<rbasak> If he's not here, we'll carry that forward.
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<rbasak> #subtopic Dan Streetman application for coredev (Mon Jan 14)
<rbasak> ddstreet: are you here?
<slashd> o/
<rbasak> Without ddstreet here, let's defer this one.
<rbasak> #topic Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
<rbasak> #info No mailing list requests since the last meeting
<rbasak> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<tsimonq2> For the record, we skipped the previous meeting.
<tsimonq2> Holidays and such.
<rbasak> #info <tsimonq2> For the record, we skipped the previous meeting.
<rbasak> #info <tsimonq2> Holidays and such.
<rbasak> Duly noted :)
<tsimonq2> Ah. :)
<rbasak> Anything else?
<tsimonq2> Not from me.
<sil2100> Not from me I think
<sil2100> hm
<sil2100> Does anyone remember what were those packageset changes?
<sil2100> Like, anything specific or just refreshing them?
<rbasak> I guess that's it then. Thank you to everyone for getting quorum so quickly today. I see that we have a PPU application from rharper lined up for the next meeting, so we will need to be present again for that one.
<sil2100> The ones cyphermox was to handle
<rbasak> Looking
<rbasak> "Add new packages to ubuntukylin packageset" from Aron Xu
<rbasak> "Add vala-panel to the MATE package set" maybe? That's quite dated now :-/
<tsimonq2> rbasak: Would two meetings in a row with quorum be a record? ;)
<rbasak> and "Update server packageset: squid3 -> squid"
<cyphermox> gah
<rbasak> Some of those might have happened automatically
<cyphermox> I'm here, timezones confusion.
<sil2100> rbasak: thanks!
<sil2100> I guess since cyphermox is here - are those on your plate still?
<cyphermox> yes
<cyphermox> I'll circle back today and make sure they're all done
<sil2100> cyphermox: thanks!
<rbasak> Thanks! I'll carry them forward for now then.
<rbasak> AO AOB?
<sil2100> rbasak: ok, I think now we're done, thanks for picking up and chairing today!
<rbasak> No problem!
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 14 15:15:16 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-01-14-15.05.moin.txt
<sil2100> \o/
<tsimonq2> Thanks everyone!
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-15
<doko> so that should be the MIR meeting ...
<cyphermox> yes
<doko> hey, at least somebody \o/
<doko> cpaelzer__, jdstrand, jamespage, didrocks: ^^^
<doko> we have quite a queue
<cyphermox> I think many might be away right now
<cyphermox> doko: we can just power through the queue, no need for a meeting for that
<didrocks> (available in 5 min)
<didrocks> back
<cpaelzer_> doko: sorry, currently capetown consumes all available time
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-17
<juliank> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 17 16:01:46 2019 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<cyphermox> mwhudson cyphermox juliank bdmurray vorlon infinity xnox rbalint doko waveform sil2100 tdaitx
<cyphermox> that means I start.
<cyphermox> - out tomorrow (Friday)
<cyphermox> - debugging arm64 SB crash on some firmwares with dannf
<cyphermox> - investigated systemd-networkd behavior with ip rules (netplan issue with DHCP vs. static with rules)
<cyphermox> - grub2 SRU to trusty for Secure Boot patches
<cyphermox> - dkms + shim-signed update+testing on xenial/trusty
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> juliank:
<juliank> * wrote a bunch of text
<juliank> * merges / syncs:
<juliank>   - merged gpgme1.0 (LP: #1808109)
<juliank>   - synced rails as remaining change was upstream, and existing version in proposed was broken anyway
<juliank> * forwarded to Debian
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1808109 in gpgme1.0 (Ubuntu) "Upgrade to 1.12" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1808109
<juliank>   - gpgme1.0 FTBFS due to expired tests (debian bug 919293)
<ubottu> Debian bug 919293 in src:gpgme1.0 "FTBFS: Test keys expired 2019-01-06" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/919293
<juliank>   - rails: Tests failing, but package still builds (debian bug 919478)
<ubottu> Debian bug 919478 in src:rails "rails: Tests failing, but package still builds" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/919478
<juliank> * apt
<juliank>   - SRUed apt 1.7.1 and 1.6.1 to cosmic/bionic (LP: #1787460) (LP: #1811120)
<juliank>   - TIL that dpkg maintainer scripts can have "in-favor" removals on conflicts/breaks, and explained that apt does not really support that (debian bug 919543)
<juliank> * autopkgtest:
<juliank>   - added mercurial to long test list in autopkgtes
<juliank>   - merged and later synced autopkgtest 5.8 from Debian
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1787460 in linux-meta-hwe (Ubuntu Disco) "Unattended upgrades removed linux-image-generic" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1787460
<juliank>   - fixed duplicity tests to work on usrmerged systems we have on autopkgtest now :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1811120 in apt (Ubuntu Xenial) "Backport auth.conf.d" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1811120
<juliank>   - performed early analysis on what's needed for having two cloud workers for autopkgtest
<ubottu> Debian bug 919543 in apt "apt: when installing with deb file, prerm maintainer script doesn't pass new-package-name before it's replaced due to conflict" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/919543
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> worked with webops to resolve downed retracers
<bdmurray> submitted RT re oops-repository not being up to date on all retracers
<bdmurray> discovered another retrace was down, oops-repository was updated but not
<bdmurray>   error-tracker-dependencies so python-cassandra was not installed
<bdmurray> submitted RT re cassandra WriteTimeout traceback on daisy app servers
<bdmurray> SRU test / verification of u-r-u bug LP: #1786484
<bdmurray> investigation into, testing of apport autoreport issue LP: #1787729
<bdmurray> uploaded disco fix for the apport-autoreport.service LP: #1787729
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager SRUs for B/C for LP: #1798618, #1795024
<bdmurray> special SRU reviews for raspi3 and 18.04
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1786484 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "free space need for /usr could be negative which is wrong" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1786484
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> * first week back from holidays
<xnox> * going through mail/bugmail/etc
<xnox> * Uploaded updates to:
<xnox>   - zhmcclient, btrfs-progs, valgrind, mdadm, s390-tools
<xnox> * Bug fixes:
<xnox>   - meson, dash, ubiquity (sru)
<xnox> * Working on v240 systemd merge & srus (got trumped by security over
<xnox>   christmas)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1787729 in apport (Ubuntu Cosmic) "apport-autoreport.service fails if whoopsie isn't running" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1787729
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1795024 in update-manager (Ubuntu Cosmic) "setting release-upgrades Prompt to never can cause confusing behavior" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1795024
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1798618 in update-manager (Ubuntu Cosmic) "confusing error message with 'do-release-upgrade -d' and Prompt=lts" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798618
<xnox> (done)
<rbalint> (short week due to being on sick leave)
<rbalint> * uploaded meld 3.20.0-1
<rbalint> * set --jobs 4 in mercurial autopkgtest to not time out (waiting for tests)
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * wrote MIR for uchardet
<rbalint> * discussed adding /var/run/reboot-required(.pkgs) usage to Debian Policy BTS #919507
<rbalint> (done)
<xnox> rbalint, debian policy - nice!
<juliank> rbalint: so we both fixed mercurial, you in the package, me by increasing the timeout? that's... special
<xnox> next time it regresses, you shall pair programme!
<juliank> lol
<xnox> waveform, ?
<waveform> - u-boot and irqbalance packages done
<waveform> - mucking in on the backlog
<waveform>   * json-schema-validator 2.3.1-3ubuntu2 updated (and sponsored)
<waveform>   * ruby-albino prepared; need to check about upstreaming
<waveform>   * xonsh: not figured out what the issue is yet
<waveform> - learning image building (pi3 classic done, pi2 classic not quite)
<waveform> - CM3 acquired, because MOAR PI! Will begin testing images on it
<waveform> (done)
<sil2100> Oh, me?
<sil2100> Already?
<juliank> yes, sil2100, you, already
<juliank> :)
<xnox> sil2100, also can join the call?
<sil2100> - Many kernel SRU reviews (new cycle)
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - Fixing core18 snap builds caused by a locale-dependent test failing on builders
<sil2100> - raspi3 'upstreaming':
<sil2100>   * Pushing flash-kernel, raspi3-firmware and Dave's u-boot + irqbalancer to bionic
<sil2100>   * Finished work-around hack for enabling multiverse in gadget tree builds on builders
<sil2100>   * Got working cdimage raspi3 builds for disco
<sil2100>   * Did a manual cpc livefs -proposed enabled raspi3 build - success!
<sil2100>   * Confirmed reported possible issues with using raspi3-firmware on pi3
<sil2100>   * Prepared an updated linux-firmware-raspi2 + livecd-rootfs in PPA for testing
<sil2100>   * Changed classic pi3-gadget to use different config.txt for armhf and arm64
<sil2100> - Sent credentials for core-snap rebuilds to CPC
<sil2100> - Fixed a typo in core-snap rebuilder jenkins script
<sil2100> - Started looking into trello API and the available Python bindings
<sil2100> - Sponsored irqbalancer and json-schema-validator for Dave
<sil2100> - Performed NEW reviews of ec2-hibinit-agent and zhmcclient
<sil2100> - Performed a few package removals
<sil2100> (done)
 * juliank read Pushing flash-kernel as Punishing flash-kernel
<tdaitx> * openjdk security update
<tdaitx>   - provided packages for openjdk 8 (cosmic, bionic, xenial) and 11 (cosmic) to the security team; also uploaded both to disco
<tdaitx>   - openjdk 7 updated to icedtea 2.6.16 7u201
<tdaitx>   - openjdk 7 security backport of 8u201 is ongoing, adapting hotspot code from S8210094
<tdaitx> * openjdk-lts autopkgtest disk space issues
<tdaitx>   - fixed and included on the latest security updates
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - travelling to EU next Saturday (26 Jan)
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<rbalint> waveform, do you have the ruby-albino patch somewhere?
<cyphermox> anything about the point-release bugs or dd bugs?
<waveform> rbalint, I've got an updated package in my PPA: https://launchpad.net/~waveform/+archive/ubuntu/pkg
<bdmurray> bug 1804673 - will there be a cosmic SRU for that?
<ubottu> bug 1804673 in gnutls28 (Ubuntu Cosmic) "gnutls causes gnome-music segmentation fault" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1804673
<juliank> yes
<xnox> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-18.04.2
<waveform> rbalint, however the relevant upstream bug (https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=919564) seems ... well, I'm not sure what they're going to do
<ubottu> Debian bug 919564 in src:ruby-albino "ruby-albino: must alter (build) dependency on python-pygments" [Normal,Open]
<juliank> bdmurray: I gotta write up a test case for the SRU, but I was busy with the other stuff :)
<bdmurray> Maybe we should look at the rls-bb-tracking list?
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<xnox> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1670291
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1670291 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "Landscape: Upgrade 14.04.5 to 16.04.2 fails unable to reboot" [Undecided,New]
<rbalint> waveform, tried updating ruby-albino deps and did fix the test but maybe i missed something
<rbalint> waveform, thanks, i'll follow up later
<bdmurray> cyphermox: is bug 1401532 in progress?
<ubottu> bug 1401532 in grub2-signed (Ubuntu Bionic) "GRUB's Secure Boot implementation loads unsigned kernel without warning" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1401532
<cyphermox> yes still in progress, I got the underlying work done in disco late last week
<cyphermox> now to do the SRUs
<cyphermox> vorlon: should this be targetted for 18.04.2?
<cyphermox> (we might not get an answer now)
<cyphermox> ok; anything else for point release?
<bdmurray> There sure are a lot of bugs with bionic tasks. Maybe I should cull the list and look for important ones.
<cyphermox> heh
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> Next Monday is a US Holiday but I'll be working.
<cyphermox> any AOB?
<cyphermox> oh, ack
<bdmurray> Oh, I guess the other US employees aren't here
<cyphermox> but they also said they will likely not be available
<cyphermox> alright, that's it then
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 17 16:25:09 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-01-17-16.01.moin.txt
<sil2100> cyphermox: thanks for chairing o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-18
<vorlon> cyphermox: targeting LP: #1401532 to 18.04.2 sounds rather appropriate to me
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1401532 in grub2-signed (Ubuntu Bionic) "GRUB's Secure Boot implementation loads unsigned kernel without warning" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1401532
<vorlon> cyphermox: the kernel ppa handling is landed in disco?
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-13
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> o/
<slashd> o/
<slashd> Happy new year all !
<slashd> do we have quorum today ?
<rbasak> We need one more
<rbasak> Although
<rbasak> https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members lists only five members now
<rbasak> So that would reduce quorum to three, which we have.
<rbasak> If the DMB is indeed now only five members.
<rbasak> cyphermox: do you consider yourself still a member, possibly seeking an extension, or do you consider yourself to have now left your seat?
<rbasak> And while I'm asking, you had an action to send a call for nominations for an election. Would you like me to take that task over from you?
<rbasak> jbicha isn't here.
<slashd> election for all of us ? or the expiring one ?
<rbasak> Just the ones whose terms are expiring/expired
<slashd> we all expires in May iirc
<rbasak> Then we might as well have an election for everyone I guess?
<cyphermox> o/
<slashd> I would go for everyone since we all expire soon anyway
<cyphermox> rbasak: I consider myself still a member but I will not run again unless there are no other candidates
<cyphermox> ie. I want to leave my seat for new people :)
<sil2100> Everyone seems fine - I'd like to apply again, if possible
<sil2100> Anyway, I guess we have quorum?
<slashd> I'd like to apply again as well
<slashd> #startmeeting DMB meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 13 15:08:12 2020 UTC.  The chair is slashd. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic:
<slashd> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<slashd> #subtopic cyphermox to build report for expiry from dev teams
<slashd> #subtopic cyphermox to setup nominations, voting for new DMB members
<slashd> I think they go together ^
<slashd> so I guess it's on the way now
<slashd> #subtopic slashd to announce and add mfo to the SRU Developer team.
<rbasak> As above, I'm happy to take over the call for nominations if cyphermox is busy
<slashd> done ^
<rbasak> Not that I'm not busy, but... :)
<rbasak> I was just looking into it while waiting for quorum as it happens
<rbasak> Assuming that everyone is happy with now calling for nominations for all seats?
<slashd> I'm +1 for it
<cyphermox> please
<rbasak> ack
<cyphermox> I can only do so much for the next few weeks
<cyphermox> ramping up new job and all of that
<slashd> so good cyphermox or rbasak will coordonnate for the new all seats election
<slashd> #subtopic rbasak to announce/implement : Expiry policy for flavor developer team membership (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2019-July/002451.html)
<slashd> any new details on this ?
<rbasak> I've not done that yet, sorry
<slashd> ok
<slashd> anything else before we go with the application ?
<slashd> I guess not
<slashd> We have 1 applicant today, rafaeldtinoco (coredev)
<rafaeldtinoco> o/
<slashd> rafaeldtinoco, he applied for MOTU a few weeks ago, I don't think introduction is needed again
<slashd> do you guys have any questions for rafael ?
<rbasak> Rafael has my endorsement too
<rbasak> I have failed again to get it on his wiki page, sorry.
<slashd> noted
<slashd> rafaeldtinoco, how's your MOTU journey going so far ? since we granted you access ?
<rafaeldtinoco> slashd: its going fine. I have currently 2 MIRs with actions on my side.
<rafaeldtinoco> other packages I uploaded were always reviewed by at least 1 core developer.
 * sil2100 doesn't have questions
<slashd> btw rafael wiki page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rafaeldtinoco/CoreDev
<slashd> rafaeldtinoco, what do you need to be carefull about of as we move forward to the release of focal in stable release when uploading changes ?
<rafaeldtinoco> I guess its a mid-opened question, but not introducing big changes as we approach freeze dates (because of testing time), always checking migrations to check on regressions that might have occurred, etc... things like that
<slashd> yeah sorry my question was not well construct
<slashd> but yeah paying attention to freeze schedule
<slashd> there is different freezes starting in february
<slashd> so that's something that will happen quicker than we think
<slashd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseSchedule
<slashd> no more question for me
<rafaeldtinoco> thanks Eric!
<slashd> ok I think there is no other questions, let's vote
<slashd> #vote Please vote on: Rafael Tinoco (rafaeldtinoco) Coredev application
<meetingology> Please vote on: Please vote on: Rafael Tinoco (rafaeldtinoco) Coredev application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<slashd> #voterequired 4
<rbasak> As Rafael is a colleague, I will abstain unless my vote is required to make quorum and everyone else is unanimously in favour.
<slashd> +1 on my side, I have witness a lot of Rafael works over the year and I'm confident he'll be a great coredev
<meetingology> +1 on my side, I have witness a lot of Rafael works over the year and I'm confident he'll be a great coredev received from slashd
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<slashd> cyphermox, ?
<slashd> I think rbasak is waiting for your vote to complete
<slashd> cyphermox ?
<slashd> quoting cyphermox: <cyphermox> in a meeting now, +1 for a vote for tinoco
<slashd> rbasak your time I guess
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<slashd> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Please vote on: Rafael Tinoco (rafaeldtinoco) Coredev application
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<slashd> Congratulations Rafael !
<rafaeldtinoco> \o/
<rafaeldtinoco> thank you all!
<slashd> I'll take care of the announcement and lp access
<rbasak> Thanks slashd!
<slashd> thanks all, have a nice rest of the day !
<slashd> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 13 15:41:36 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-01-13-15.08.moin.txt
<sil2100> p/
<rafaeldtinoco> thank you!!!
<sil2100> slashd: thanks for chairing o/
<ddstreet> congrats rafaeldtinoco!
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: tks Dan!
<slashd> rafaeldtinoco, you should be all set
<rafaeldtinoco> slashd: thanks a lot Eric!
<rafaeldtinoco> means a lot ;)
<slashd> rafaeldtinoco, my pleasure
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-14
<didrocks> doko: cpaelzer: FYI, I won't be available for the MIR team meeting today. Nothing already unoticed to raise
<cpaelzer> ok didrocks
<cpaelzer> pre meeting ping for awareness jamespage doko sarnold
<cpaelzer> didrocks: (excused)
<jamespage> o/
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: (technically still a member right?)
<cpaelzer> jamespage: did I miss someone in above ping?
<jamespage> joeubuntu maybe
<joeubuntu> I'm here.
<cpaelzer> doko: are you here?
<cpaelzer> I know jamespage and I have some things with us to decide and I'd want to avoid this seems like cross-acking each others stuff
<cpaelzer> well joeubuntu can be the nay-sayer then if needed :-)
<joeubuntu> I'll try my best :)
<cpaelzer> I've also sent doko a query as ping
<cpaelzer> lets get started as is and hope he joins us later thne
<jamespage> context - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ovn/+bug/1859601
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1859601 in ovn (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ovn (binary only)" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 14 14:03:39 2020 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic:
<cpaelzer> can you repeat for the log jamespage?
<jamespage> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ovn/+bug/1859601
<jamespage> context is that we've split the ovn source package out of the openvswitch package (already in main).
<cpaelzer> as I said this morning, you already have my ack jamespage
<jamespage> the objective for 20.04 is to make OVN the default SDN for OpenStack on Ubuntu
<cpaelzer> as its source was in main before it has had reviews and such already
<jamespage> so I've seeded the required binaries into one of the server supported seeds
<cpaelzer> joeubuntu: you need to be the third vote to decide, do you agree that in such a case we can fast-path ack it to be promoted?
<joeubuntu> +1
<cpaelzer> jamespage: ok I'm setting the bug state
<jamespage> ta
<joeubuntu> for the reasons cpaelzer and jamespage  laid out.
<cpaelzer> jamespage: only it is listed as "unsubscribed"
<cpaelzer> jamespage: could you do the pkg-subscription for openstack team whie I change state
<jamespage> I sorted that out this morning - might not have refreshed yet
<cpaelzer> ah ok thanks
<cpaelzer> jamespage: the update is done, you just need to get an AAs attention as usual
<cpaelzer> other cases for discussion from you jamespage?
<jamespage> ta - no rush I'll chase one down if it does not happne
<jamespage> no - I think ceph-iscsi and nfs-ganesha are both with joeubuntu and the security team for review
<cpaelzer> ok then topic switch - I have an own bug(s) to discuss
 * jamespage listens
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/containerd/+bug/1819761 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/runc/+bug/1817336
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1819761 in containerd (Ubuntu) "[MIR] containerd" [Undecided,New]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1817336 in runc (Ubuntu) "[MIR] runc" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> last discussed on the engineering sprint
<cpaelzer> let me summarize the background
<cpaelzer> 1. plenty of golang dependencies
<cpaelzer> 2. comes with the deps vendorized
<cpaelzer> 3. we were tasked to anaylze the dependencies if some of them are packaged
<cpaelzer> 4. this is a special case as runc/containerd will NOT stay at their version, they will get regular bumps to new major versions
<cpaelzer> like we did with docker.io in the past
<jamespage> and so their dependencies will change over time as well right
<jamespage> ?
<cpaelzer> yes jamespage, they will update
<cyphermox> cpaelzer: no, technically not a member anymore
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: :-/ but still o/
<cpaelzer> therefore the decision in Paris was that we'd want dependencies that have extra packages alrady in main (e.g. due to LXD work in the past) to use these packages
<cyphermox> cpaelzer: MIR is Canonical-specific, AFAIK; since I'm not Canonical anymore, I wouldn't necessarily be representing the best interests, but I'll be happy to give you my opinion on software when asked :)
<cpaelzer> if on a bump the vendored dependencies are needed on a newer level we'd swicth from package to vendored dependency
<cpaelzer> while the other vendored dependencies (since they'd move anyway and have no initial better review-path) can stay vendored
<cpaelzer> now the analysis is complete and was added to the bugs
<cpaelzer> TL;DR: none of the dependencies are in main already
<jamespage> concern - both juju and lxd are no longer shipped in the archive so are they archive maintainers for the packages that have been split out
<jamespage> ?
<jamespage> they/there
<cpaelzer> yes they are still
<jamespage> I suspect the LXD team where probably doing some of them
<cpaelzer> as usual with a MIR who brought it in owns it
<cpaelzer> but they might have dropped to universe since then
<jamespage> are they also in Debian?
<cpaelzer> most, but not all are packaged in Debian/Ubuntu
<jamespage> just considering that if they are Ubuntu only and end up with no reverse depends they might pop up on a potential to remove list
<jamespage> TBH I struggle to hate vendoring - on the one side I appreciate that its not the distro model and muddies the view of the world
<jamespage> on the other hand - its what upstream have tested with...
<jamespage> that said we've taken a similar approach in ceph
<joeubuntu> as long as we can  easily track the versions in the vendored code I am not against it.
<jamespage> (and that's not go)
<cpaelzer> jamespage: joeubuntu: what I'd want from you know is considering the above; the Paris discussion if you remember; and the bugs; then with me discuss/ack that we'll go forward on this case with the MIR and security review keeping dependencies vendored
<cpaelzer> kanashiro: ^^ if you want to chime in as well
<joeubuntu> I think we should proceed as planned in Paris .
<cpaelzer> kanashiro: ahasenack were the ones working on prepping the MIRs and the package
<cpaelzer> joeubuntu: ok, that would mean since nothing is in main we keep all vendored then
<jamespage> tbh I think that's the reality of where the packages would be in 6-9 months anyway
<jamespage> so at least if we've reviewed whats vendored we have a know good startline...
<doko> sorry, typing too much ...
<joeubuntu> We've got the ability to track it on our end, so I'm cool with it.
<cpaelzer> ok, I'd MIR ack the bugs then and "all that is left" is the security review then (a lot I know)
<cpaelzer> it already is assigned to security and on their trello
<cpaelzer> doko: anything to add since you are now with us?
<cpaelzer> we can give you a few min to inhale all the backlog here :-)
<joeubuntu> As an update we are down to 9 MIRs from a high of 14 in December.
<doko> not from my side
<kanashiro> do you mean a way to track the diff of vendorized deps between versions in both packages?
<cpaelzer> kanashiro: joeubuntu and all of seucrity will need to track if containerd has dependency A at version 1.2.3
<joeubuntu> kanashiro , if that is for me, we have the ability to track the version of vendorized code in all vendored packages
<cpaelzer> in case 1.2.3 becomes known to be affected to know that we also need to change the package that vendorized it
<joeubuntu> I can't recall the details of how... but the tools exist.
<cpaelzer> kanashiro: have you added the result of the package anylasis to both bugs already runc and containerd?
<cpaelzer> anylasis->analysis
<kanashiro> cpaelzer, I just need to add a comment to containerd bug, but I have it in my notes
<ahasenack> note we will have potentially two versions of vendor code in the archive: the package in universe, and the vendored code inside runc/containerd
<cpaelzer> I only see it on the runc bug
<cpaelzer> kanashiro: ok please add it there
<kanashiro> runc ibug is ok
<cpaelzer> ahasenack: yeah but that (two versions) is the natural consequence of vendorizing
<ahasenack> yep
<cpaelzer> ok I conclude that we are ok and will update the bug then
<cpaelzer> lets go on with the tail end of the "normal" MIR meeting
 * kanashiro is copying and pasting his notes regarding containerd now
<cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cpaelzer> I'm not aware of recent action items
<cpaelzer> anything for you others?
<cpaelzer> ok - I take that as a no, then ...
<cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: New MIRs
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> there is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gamemode/+bug/1853830
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853830 in gamemode (Ubuntu) "[MIR] gamemode" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> from the Desktop team or Wimpress
<cpaelzer> anyone having extra context on that one?
<cpaelzer> didrocks: I know you are not here - but you'll read thids ping. Could you clarify if this is up for review or waiting on anything else?
<cpaelzer> It is there quite some time for not being mentioned before, therefore a pre-check by someone close to desktop could be useful
<cpaelzer> next list
<cpaelzer> #topic Incomplete bugs / questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Incomplete bugs / questions
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usbguard/+bug/1816548
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1816548 in usbguard (Ubuntu) "[MIR] usbguard" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<cpaelzer> joeubuntu: did you (=security) and any desktop member get further on this one?
<cpaelzer> last was an update by jdstrand missing still some fixes
<cpaelzer> seb128 isn't here, didrocks could you ask internally if Desktop wants to re-emphasize or drop the efforts on usbguard?
<joeubuntu> cpaelzer It is still in progress by jdstrand
<cpaelzer> should it move from incomplete to new then?
<cpaelzer> as incomplete indicates waiting on the reporter
<joeubuntu> Let me check with jdstrand when he comes back.
<cpaelzer> ok, you have the powers to set tat state then if he agrees
<joeubuntu> yup
<cpaelzer> the last I see worth for discussion is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjpeg2/+bug/711061
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 711061 in openjpeg2 (Ubuntu) "[MIR] openjpeg2" [High,Incomplete]
<cpaelzer> had security review a) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjpeg2/+bug/711061/comments/62
<cpaelzer> which let doko set it to incomplete
<cpaelzer> then a lot of things happened
<cpaelzer> and we got https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjpeg2/+bug/711061/comments/71
<cpaelzer> which is security review (b)
<cpaelzer> doko: joeubuntu: Is that ready for promotion now?
<cpaelzer> as (b) was an ack
<joeubuntu> Yes it was acked. promote
<cpaelzer> doko: or are you waiting on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjpeg2/+bug/711061/comments/70 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 711061 in openjpeg2 (Ubuntu) "[MIR] openjpeg2" [High,Incomplete]
<joeubuntu> cpaelzer hold on,
<cpaelzer> holing ... :-)
<cpaelzer> +d
<joeubuntu> I  may be wrong...
<cpaelzer> I also don't see desktop-packages subscribed
<joeubuntu> I thought it was done, let me check with the team and get back via email.
<cpaelzer> joeubuntu: you could check with the team and then do a small update on the bug maybe?
<cpaelzer> directly on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjpeg2/+bug/711061
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 711061 in openjpeg2 (Ubuntu) "[MIR] openjpeg2" [High,Incomplete]
<joeubuntu> will do
<cpaelzer> thanks
<cpaelzer> so I guess we unblcoked all we heard about
<cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Any other business?
<cpaelzer> we had the two big discussion in the beginning
<cpaelzer> anything else?
<cpaelzer> ... no?
<cpaelzer> 3
<cpaelzer> 2
<cpaelzer> 1
<cpaelzer> than ks everyone
<cpaelzer> today was a rather big one, so thanks-twice!
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 14 14:39:27 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-01-14-14.03.moin.txt
<Laney> eee sorry
<Laney> cpaelzer: can I flag https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fonts-smc-gayathri/+bug/1858620 to the team pls?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1858620 in fonts-smc-gayathri (Ubuntu) "[MIR] fonts-smc-gayathri" [Undecided,New]
<Laney> should be easy hopefully, but blocking fonts-smc in proposed
<cpaelzer> you won't be in the log, but people are still here
<cpaelzer> I'm rather heads down on stuff that needs to be done before I need to get the capetown plane
<cpaelzer> jamespage: I assume it isn't different for you?
<cpaelzer> Laney: I can take a look somewhen next week as the sprint allows
<cpaelzer> Laney: is it more urgent than that?
<cpaelzer> chances for a fonts-package are we might need no security-review
<cpaelzer> but no promise
<cpaelzer> I've seen fonts packages that contained dameons!
<cpaelzer> or even daemons
<Laney> cpaelzer: not super urgent, but is currently blocking so wanted to flag it to the mir team
<cpaelzer> ok Laney I'll assign myself then
<cpaelzer> I'll have some breaks on the sprint where a review might just fit very well
<cpaelzer> like dumping all my bad mood into areject :-P
<Laney> :)))
<jamespage> lol
<cpaelzer> I realized that sounds wrong, I' usually fine except being compacted too much by airplane seats
<didrocks> cpaelzer: I asked last time. Will redo today
<cpaelzer> sorry didrocks
<didrocks> nw ;)
<cpaelzer> it will keep coming up unless you mark it invalid if no one answers you :-)
<didrocks> heh. I should definitively do that :p
<didrocks> same for gamemode
<cpaelzer> yep
<cpaelzer> bugs are like zombies, properly resurrect or burn them
<cpaelzer> nobody wants the in-between-states
<didrocks> indeed!
<didrocks> cpaelzer: I'll handle gamemode. usbguard will be set as incomplete in a moment until a definitive decision is taken
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-16
<bdmurray> o/
<sil2100> o/
<juliank> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 16 16:01:30 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform)
<bdmurray> mwhudson sil2100 xnox doko rbalint bdmurray vorlon tdaitx infinity waveform juliank
<bdmurray> sil2100: you win?
<juliank> I lose again :(
<xnox> or do I win?
<sil2100> Can I be skipped for a moment? Not ready!
<xnox> 16th January:
<xnox> Gnutls28 & nss with tlsv1.2 minimum migrated to focal release
<xnox> Openssl is practically ready, only waiting on a few builds to finish building & testing to be fixed (i.e. linux & python2 fallout)
<xnox> Trying to unwind other unrelated fallouts due to year 2020 bugs (openssh / mysql-8.0 / etc)
<xnox> Trying to get cmake/cmake-extras/et.al. to migrate
<xnox> Merging PR for uc20 core20 & pc-gadget. Working at integration with snap-bootstrap managed cryptsetup
<xnox> Prep for cape town sprint next week
<xnox> Off tomorrow, swap day.
<xnox> (done)
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko>  python2 removal, fix or remove some 250 packages
<doko> - some -proposed migration work
<doko> - first binutils fix for arm64, but still problems. will likely need some rebuilds
<doko> - looking at armhf bus errors in GCC.
<doko> - reducing GCC ICEs on ppc64el
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<rbalint> (short week due to holidays)
<rbalint> * uploads via Debian: shadow 4.8, wireshark 3.2.0
<rbalint> * rebuilt and reuploaded and verified binutils with -security only to SRU it properly for LP: #1843479
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1843479 in binutils "gzip in Ubuntu Eoan results in Exec format error on WSL1" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843479
<rbalint> * dropped systemd 244.1 from focal-proposed due to regression to be fully triaged later
<rbalint> * fixed flatbuffers FTBFS in Salsa
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> its a me!
<bdmurray> investigation into stale package team mapping json file
<bdmurray> looked in to potential automake-1.16 fixes from upstream
<bdmurray> remembering how bileto works
<bdmurray> updated walinux-agent to version 2.2.45
<bdmurray> review of candidate take home tests
<bdmurray> review of launchpad stock replies MP for bryce
<bdmurray> prep for Cape Town sprint
<bdmurray> autopkgtest hint to get binutils to migrate in eoan
<sil2100> I'm ready if anything o/
<bdmurray> doneâ½
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Was still off last week
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Did the bin-copy dance for gcc-7-cross* packages
<sil2100> - 18.04.4:
<sil2100>   * Lot's of coordination between teams
<sil2100>   * Prepared release tracking document, keeping it up-to-date
<sil2100>   * Kicked off a test build for the pi4
<sil2100>   * Prepped livecd-rootfs to pull in the right raspi2 kernel
<sil2100>   * Checked if the gadget tree will support the new kernel pull
<sil2100>   * Some minor related work
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Finally prepared PR to not remove /boot/grub contents in u-i image builds
<sil2100>   * Reviewed some u-i PR's
<sil2100>   * Looked into the u-i issues with uc20 builds, prepared a card for it
<sil2100> - Prepared some missing MRs for the .disk/info bits for ubuntu-image builds
<sil2100>   * Had a chat with Colin and found an existing thing we can use
<sil2100> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * i386:
<vorlon>   * the uninstallable count is down to zero \o/
<vorlon>   * working on britney patches to reduce the number of mis-triggers (and mis-blocks) of i386 autopkgtests
<vorlon>   * still a list of failing autopkgtests of whitelisted i386 packages to analyze
<vorlon>  * finalizing plan for /usr/bin/python deprecation
<vorlon>  * finalizing spec for openvswitch support in netplan
<vorlon>  * 18.04.4 planning discussions
<vorlon> (done)
<tdaitx>   - updated snap to include both full and sample testsuite and to fix some snapcraft warnings
<tdaitx>   - rerunning with samples and saving generated artifacts, enabled javatest plugin, investigating how to access artifacts from previous run
<tdaitx> * openjdk security updated
<tdaitx>   - backported 11.0.6 to bionic, disco, and eoan, checked that 11.0.6 test results are sane
<tdaitx>   - building and testing 8u242-b07, applied JDK-8234288 to fix LP: #1859217
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1859217 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "openjdk8 update 8u232-b09-0ubuntu1~18.04.1 breaks Timestamp values for timezones that change DST observance" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1859217
<tdaitx>   - waiting for openjdk 8 GA (b07 is still under test upstream, so a b08 might happen)
<tdaitx> * apport O_PATH fix (LP: #1851806)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<tdaitx>   - uploaded changes, autopkgtest is failing
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - Out next week (on a 6 days tap workshop), will take my laptop in case openjdk regresses
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> infinity isn't here, may still be ill
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Reviewed sil2100's livecd-rootfs+ubuntu-image patches
<waveform> * Hardware verification of daily-preinstalled image on various pis
<waveform> * Finished uboot script migration for the bionic raspi2 image
<waveform> * Forward porting changes to focal for SRU
<waveform> * Tested script migration on all other variants; finally looks good
<waveform> * Looking at fribidi
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> So
<juliank> - released apt 1.9.6, disables regex/fnmatch parsing of package names on apt(8)
<juliank> - released apt 1.9.7, fixing regression from 1.9.6, and a regression from 1.9.0 - apt-daily services were being restarted again
<juliank> packagekit sync
<juliank> aptdaemon python2 removal fixes
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1859780
<ubottu> bug 1859780 in netplan.io (Ubuntu) "Tests are failing in focal / with the new n-m version" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1859780
<bdmurray> Well that seems worth carding / taking
<bdmurray> so doing so
<bdmurray> bug 1859610
<ubottu> bug 1859610 in libffi (Ubuntu) "python-gi/arm64 segfaults with the focal-proposed libffi version" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1859610
<bdmurray> seb128: ^ that's arm64 specific?
<bdmurray> doko: can you look at this?
<xnox> bdmurray:  i thought this is in progress
<bdmurray> xnox: can you cite your source?
<sil2100> quotation needed
<xnox> bdmurray:  alpha standup on monday?
<xnox> http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/p/python2.7/focal/arm64
<xnox> ^
<bdmurray> okay, let's card that for further investigation
<doko> bdmurray: yes, I'll have a look
<xnox> autopkgtest for python2.7/2.7.17-1: amd64: Pass, arm64: Regression â» , armhf: Pass, i386: Ignored failure, ppc64el: Pass, s390x: Pass
<xnox> under libffi in update_excuses
<seb128> bdmurray, yes it is
<seb128> bdmurray, that's blocking half of the world though, see all the arm64 items on https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html
<seb128>  bdmurray, can we get the priority for that one raised? it's really locking lot of things...
<bdmurray> seb128: yes, we'll get a card created and prioritized
<seb128> bdmurray, thx
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1843109
<ubottu> bug 1843109 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "update-manager crashed with AttributeError in checkFreeSpace(): 'MyCache' object has no attribute 'quirks'" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843109
<doko> seb128: did you find a test case for that one?
<bdmurray> "extra_snap_space" sil2100 that looks like your code
<seb128> doko, the testcase is in the bug description
<seb128> doko, I could reproduce on a canonistack fresh instance
<bdmurray> sil2100: from the Traceback
<sil2100> Ouchy
<sil2100> I'll take it
<bdmurray> sil2100: okay, thanks
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1858203
<ubottu> bug 1858203 in glibc (Ubuntu) "Patch for glibc Bug 23538 - "Hang in pthread_cond_broadcast" not available on Ubuntu LTS" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1858203
<bdmurray> let's target that and card it
<bdmurray> bug 1854839
<ubottu> bug 1854839 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Fresh Bionic install hangs forever at 66% waiting for os-prober" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1854839
 * juliank removed os-prober completely because it sort of breaks with lvm snapshots
<xnox> juliank:  indeed.
<xnox> and zfs
<juliank> (sort of because i have a ton of (thin) snapshots and it mounts them each)
 * juliank uses snapper for / on XFS on thinpool
<rbalint> bdmurray, this bug has a workaround and does not seem to affect a lot of people
<bdmurray> I'll look around and see if more people are experiencing this.
<rbalint> +1
<bdmurray> that's it for rls bugs
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> vorlon: can you do that thing you do?
<bdmurray> automake-1.16 I'm still working on
<vorlon> yes, doing
<vorlon> fribidi: waveform mentioned he's still working on it
<vorlon> waveform: do you need any help?
<vorlon> bdmurray: do you?
<bdmurray> I was stuck with how to use bileto but sil2100 helped me out
<bdmurray> So not yet
<waveform> vorlon, not yet - only started looking today after finally knocking the u-boot stuff on the head
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> doko: infinity took licensecheck et al last time but he's out sick right now, do you want to pick it up?
<rbalint> vorlon, i take that one if doko is not interested
<rbalint> (or busy)
<vorlon> rbalint: it can probably be dispatched more quickly by an AA/MIR team member which is why I suggest doko
<rbalint> vorlon, ok
<vorlon> python-setuptools: this is a progression not a regression, I'm retrying the test failure with the new version that's now in release
<doko> ok
<doko> xnox filed a removal bug
<vorlon> doko: for which?
<doko> license*
<vorlon> ...
<doko> cross-toolchain-base
<vorlon> no removal bug listed on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/licensecheck
<vorlon> doko: anyway, this is yours to follow up on
<vorlon> elfutils: I'll look at this, the linux autopkgtest failures are to be ignored by release team (all currently broken due to python->python2 transition) but I'll dig into the makedumpfile failure
<vorlon> (makedumpfile was previously broken on ppc64el, looks like it might be flaky now)
<xnox> vorlon:  not licensecheck but license-somethingrather which is blocking licencechk
<vorlon> doko: you said cross-toolchain-base, is that you volunteering to take it?
<vorlon> xnox, doko: ah, ok, I'm removing license-reconcile now
<doko> yes, but with low prio
<xnox> vorlon:  tah
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/license-reconcile/+bug/1859994
<vorlon> doko: ok
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1859994 in license-reconcile (Debian) "RM: license-reconcile broken, unmaintained, RC-buggy, removed from testing, clogging up proposed-migration" [Unknown,New]
<vorlon> python-docutils / mercurial
<vorlon> rbalint: ?
<rbalint> vorlon, blind ack :-)
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> pango1.0 is only blocked by dep on new fribidi, no separate action
<xnox> rbalint:  does blind-ack doubles the options reward? =)
<vorlon> aptdaemon autopkgtest regression blocking lintian
<vorlon> juliank: you want aptdaemon? :-)
<juliank> one sec
<doko> s/?/!/
<juliank> that's done
<juliank> it just needs britney to run again
<vorlon> juliank: ok. then do you want to take the autopkgtest regressions of lintian itself?
<juliank> I can, but it looks like a compiler /toolchain bug
<vorlon> well, you know where to find compiler/toolchain people if you need help :)
<juliank> I think there were fixes, so I guess I'll retry :)
<vorlon> pyyaml
<vorlon> sil2100: would you like pyyaml?
<sil2100> I guess I could try picking it up in-between stuffy
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> I'll take lxml / nova, I had been poking already at the nova regressions
<vorlon> and paramiko is the same thing, taking
<vorlon> tdaitx: can you look at util-linux / cmake-extras?
<doko> pillow needs removal
<tdaitx> vorlon: yeah, if I can't finish it by tomorrow should I let someone know? I am out next week
<vorlon> tdaitx: yes please
<vorlon> tdaitx: let your manager know :)
<tdaitx> ack
<vorlon> openssh, piuparts
<vorlon> bdmurray: ^^ ?
<xnox> tdaitx:  i think cmake-extras is now all green with all-proposed=1 runs
<xnox> tdaitx:  no idea aobut util-linux
<bdmurray> I can look but I'm not sure how much time I'll have with CPT
<vorlon> fair
<vorlon> who can take glib2.0?  there's a few regressions to dig through
<vorlon> xnox: ?
<vorlon> no, you're traveling
<vorlon> needs to be one of doko, rbalint, or juliank
<xnox> or drumroll vorlon?
<bdmurray> remember mwhudson comes back next week
<rbalint> vorlon, looks like me
<xnox> =)
<xnox> who is not travelling ;-)
<vorlon> no, looking forward I don't have capacity for that one
<tdaitx> xnox: cmake-extras still fails on arm64 and i386 http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/c/cmake-extras
<vorlon> ok, glib2.0 to mwhudson
<vorlon> gnutls28 is an i386 autopkgtest, I'll just take that :P
<tdaitx> unless the page is out of date
<doko> did desktop say goodbye to gtk maintenance?
<vorlon> and by extension I'll take the gnutls28 failure that's blocking p11-kit
<rbalint> hopefully not to gtk3
<xnox> tdaitx:  still running. so yeah, need to wait.
<vorlon> rbalint: you can have paste
<vorlon> doko: you can have pillow
<vorlon> juliank: you can have cmake
<rbalint> vorlon, ack: paste
<vorlon> and I think I'll stop there; there's a few more at the bottom of the list and people can pick them up if they have capacity
<doko> vorlon: ftbfs on i386, does it need fixing?
<rbalint> vorlon, paste: copied
<vorlon> but I think people are full
<juliank> ack
<vorlon> doko: pillow?
<juliank> pillow and paste just ftbfs on i386
<vorlon> pillow is in the i386 set
<vorlon> paste is not
<vorlon> so yes, pillow needs fixed on i386 or dereferenced
<xnox> vorlon:  gnutls28 looks like is a very old version. maybe just a retry will fix it.
<doko> ok, then looking at pillow :-/
<vorlon> (pillow is a build-dep of mir)
<juliank> pillow is sbuild-build-depends-pillow-dummy : Depends: python3-cffi but it is not going to be installed
<vorlon> bdmurray: done
<bdmurray> vorlon: thanks!
<juliank> (JFTR)
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> I'm on a plane starting tomorrow mid-day
<doko> I'm starting the Python 3.8 bump this weekend
<vorlon> doko: can we get libffi cleared out?
<vorlon> first
<bdmurray> and the 20th is a US holiday
<vorlon> yep, I'll be away
<bdmurray> but only for vorlon I guess
<doko> vorlon: connected to openssl, and don't think that's a good idea
<vorlon> doko: well, it blocks pygobject for example
<vorlon> so it looks to me like there would be entanglement
<doko> pygobject doesn't need migrating for the defaults change
<vorlon> (and I don't see the interconnection between libffi and openssl)
<vorlon> alright
<xnox> mclemenceau:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration
<xnox> is the documentation
<bdmurray> alright, thanks everybody
<vorlon> thanks!
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 16 16:59:55 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-01-16-16.01.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks!
