#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-07
<MrChrisDruif> phillw; which theme of Xubuntu was good for accessibility? And what made it so good?
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: you, rafael and charlie-tca would need to chat about that. The kubuntu graphics guy is a really nice guy and it does seem that the two kindred spirits get on really well with each other.
<MrChrisDruif> phillw; It seems Rafael isn't much on IRC....and not very cooperative...I've had some off mailing-list conversation with him...
<MrChrisDruif> He works better alone I would say :)
<phillw> the design work for the kubuntu area is breathtaking. You lads wanting to learn web-site stuff could learn SO much from the kubuntu people. 
<maco> the kubuntu graphics guy = who?
<maco> roman used to do the login screens to match the wallpaper...is that who you mean?
<MrChrisDruif> Don't you mean ochosi?
<maco> i dont know who ochosi is
<maco> not a name ive seen in #kubuntu-devel at all
<MrChrisDruif> I think he made blue- and graybird
<MrChrisDruif> #shimmer is for theming right?
<maco> i dont know what you're talking about now
<maco> is that an upstream channel or something?
<MrChrisDruif> Ow...kubuntu...
<MrChrisDruif> shimmer is from xubuntu
<maco> oh ok
<MrChrisDruif> xD
<MrChrisDruif> Sorry aboot that
<MrChrisDruif> phillw; So it was the theme from Kubuntu that is great...or that from Xubuntu?
 * MrChrisDruif is getting confused :P
<phillw> it was,
<phillw> afaik, it was charlie-tca who said it was one of the kubuntu themes that he had spent a long time on getting sorted.
<MrChrisDruif> K?
<charlie-tca> except from an accessibility viewpoint, for poor visual ability, plasma is really hard on the eyes
<charlie-tca> phillw: xubuntu
<maco> even with a different plasma theme?
<charlie-tca> maco: I don't know how to change themes in Kubuntu
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha charlie-tca :)
<phillw> charlie-tca: so the theme is via xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> but that default is really hard to read
<charlie-tca> phillw: yes
<charlie-tca> the greybird theme is a good theme for most of us
<maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearance -> desktop theme    changes plasma's theme
<phillw> charlie-tca: soz, I thought you were a kubuntu person!
<maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearnce -> window decorations    for title bars
<MrChrisDruif> As you might have realized...I've taken it upon myself to make an accessibility theme for Lubuntu
<maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> application appearance    for the window chrome
<charlie-tca> phillw: Xubuntu Project Lead
<charlie-tca> Kubuntu accessibility tester
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu accessibility tester
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; So we're pretty good along the way with our accessibility theme already?
<phillw> charlie-tca: again my apoligies, I thougt it was kubuntu!
<charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: you are? that's a good thing. 
<charlie-tca> yeah, too much transparancies letting the background and fonts blend is not so easy to read
<phillw> charlie-tca: regardless of the tone of emails flying backwards and forwards. I assure accessibility that 
<phillw> Lubuntu IS commited
<charlie-tca> I got that :-)
<MrChrisDruif> Well...if you can take a look at ozone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Artwork/Incoming/Natty/Ozone Current theme in Natty
<charlie-tca> the only developer we got around is TheMuso, and he is usually really busy
<MrChrisDruif> To what are we committed phillw ? Or better put, to what not? :P
<MrChrisDruif> I don't see TheMuso say much indeed
<charlie-tca> I keep telling shimmer what blends too much, and ochosi made some serious efforts to get greybird where it should be usable by anyone.
<TheMuso> I lirk, but I am often busy as charlie-tca said. If people want my attention on IRC, they need to signal me via my nickname, then I respond.
<phillw> charlie-tca: I have chatted to TheMuso, hence his name being used when JM gave his opinion! - These devs do not pander to the electorate and wrap stuff in cotton wool - they say it as they see it.
<charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: I like that
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; Ozone you mean?
<charlie-tca> You might have some fine tuning on the white titles on the blue, but that is nice theme
<charlie-tca> yeah
<MrChrisDruif> phillw; Hear that?
<charlie-tca> phillw: unfortunately, so do I, so do I
<phillw> TheMuso: hopefully, as Lubuntu gets past the next hurdle, we may have a little more dev time to help eachother.
<TheMuso> phillw: Cool./
<MrChrisDruif> So we'd only need to look into the white on blue lettering and we're pretty much a done deal charlie-tca ?
<maco> charlie-tca: im a developer...
<phillw> JM is certainly up for it, as are people from SII etc.
<maco> just not on canonical payroll like TheMuso ;)
<charlie-tca> phillw: I am sure you noticed I don't back down easily. I think Lubuntu has a niche to fill, and I really want it to succeed.
<charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: from what I see there, yes. there will always be some tuning to work out, but for the most part, it looks good.
<charlie-tca> dam
<charlie-tca> phillw: I lied
<charlie-tca> maco is a developer too
<phillw> charlie-tca: Lubuntu will succeed, as for backing down? That is not required. Imagine if the only choice you had was Win, or N
<phillw> Mac?
<charlie-tca> probably some more around here
 * MrChrisDruif checks it of his todo list
<charlie-tca> phillw: I agree
<phillw> withing the linux family we have hunders, possibly thousands of flavours.
<maco> im still pretty noob on a11y coding, but ive got the basics of ATK hinting sorted
<charlie-tca> and I am pretty sure lubuntu doesn't want to integrate orca as it is today, too
<MrChrisDruif> It's strength and it's weakness at the same time
<MrChrisDruif> I read something about a C or C++ implementation of Orca?
<phillw> charlie-tca: from what I understand, it pulls in gnome and all its dependant relatives. This is not something we can do :(
<charlie-tca> experience with orca in Xubuntu says it ain't lightweight by any means
<MrChrisDruif> Not only good for Lubuntu /me thinks
<TheMuso> MrChrisDruif: Not confirmed, parts of orca may be ported to C to improve performance.
<charlie-tca> yes, someone is working towards something in C, I think
<TheMuso> Not necessarily, it depends on whether its worth the porting, i.e whether performance is that much better.
<charlie-tca> phillw: given a choice between orca and none, choose none for this cycle. 
<MrChrisDruif> That's what I read as well TheMuso 
<AlanBell> I am not sure what is slow about orca
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: I don't see it as slow, but I don't count it as light either. 
<phillw> charlie-tca: okies, as you all know. we are pretty tight on what we can add to Lubuntu without breaking our rules on what it must run on.
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> I would like to see dasher working in everything, but at least try for Onboard Keyboard, it does help, at least.
<phillw> AlanBell: it is down to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System requirements
<AlanBell> oh, lubuntu stuff
<phillw> AlanBell: that is wat we are discussing :)
<AlanBell> but that is a we won't use gnome thing rather than a performance thing
<MrChrisDruif> s/ /%20
<MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System%20requirements
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: more of a "make it work in the 128MB ram" thing, I think
<phillw> AlanBell: we will use anything that keeps us in that requirements. Remember Apollo 13? -- There is a red line in AMPS to get it to work, we have the same to do.
<AlanBell> yeah, apollo 13 doesn't fly any more
<phillw> If we cannot, we cannot - but that is no excuse for not trying.
<AlanBell> but hey, it sounds like a fun project
<charlie-tca> I like the idea of a very lightweight ubuntu derivative.
<charlie-tca> I have sent several people to try it, when they compain about slow systems.
<AlanBell> I give people more ram
<phillw> AlanBell: ooh, goodie, I know several thousand people waiting for such gifts :P
<MrChrisDruif> RAM != faster system ;)
<AlanBell> anyhow, does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser?
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; What?
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: lack of ram is almost always the only performance problem
<phillw> AlanBell: a lot of people with accessibilty issues are in the lower quadrant of income. they cannot afford the 'latest' computer. My interest in this also rolls over to the ubntu-uk thread of school computers. 
<AlanBell> accerciser shows you what information is available over at-spi
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I meant the second sentence..."does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser?"
<AlanBell> phillw: yeah, and the stuff being pushed out by remploy is perfect for gnome, if it had more ram, so I am looking at how to up their spec
<phillw> Back in 10.04 alpha2 we had a teacher from india come on and say he had managed to keep his little school lab going, on a blade server, of all things, because lubuntu used 30% less resources than the gnome one. Blade servers are not really designed with serving multiple dumb terminals, but that guy did it.
<phillw> Give them the tools, they will make what they need.
<phillw> charlie-tca: by the way, once JM has a chance, he is going to load up LightDM and compare resource usage to lxdm. As I said, I do recall some chatter about lightDM, but I'd rather have some one run some stats on them both.
<charlie-tca> Great! 
<charlie-tca> In xubuntu, it works quite nicely, and doesn't have near the gnome dependencies of GDM
<charlie-tca> phillw: let JM know it crashes at login right now, but does not seem to block anything. 
<phillw> charlie-tca: as we are virtually gnome free, lxdm is pretty lean :)
<charlie-tca> I just keep getting a apport crash in oneiric from it
<phillw> dropping HAL (whatever that is :P ) has taken a little time also
<charlie-tca> It is really easy to theme too
<charlie-tca> Yes, HAL had to go away. It was the way most power stuff was managed. dbus has replaced it, but I understand very little other than HAL is "bad" now
<phillw> AlanBell: I have lost my begging list for second hand computers for F/OSS projects, could you or one of the ubuntu-uk people please resend it to phillw@ubuntu.com 
<charlie-tca> I guess I better go make moinmoin desktop edition work with python greater than 2.6 now.
<MrChrisDruif> moinmoin desktop edition? So you can WYSIWYG it on your own pc?
<AlanBell> phillw: do you mean this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-May/029581.html
<phillw> AlanBell: that's the one, thanks.
<AlanBell> http://www.ecycleonline.co.uk/choose-your-computer---ubuntu-12-c.asp
<AlanBell> talking to them about doubling the RAM on the ubuntu models so they are higher spec than the XP ones
<AlanBell> nothing wrong with the CPU but 256 is rather tight
<AlanBell> would like to put a gig on all of them tbh
<AlanBell> I have one of the Dell boxes in the pictures, works fine with a gig of ram running unity, single core 1.6Ghz processor
<AlanBell> and they are the UKs largest employer of people with disabilities apparently
<charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: a short version of moinmoin, uses python 2.6 or less. It does not a full lamp installed
<phillw> AlanBell: when I was plant chemist (many, many moons ago) we used to make the foam seat tablets for Remploy to turn into office furniture. It really is a small world. I did read, also many years ago that they shut that Remploy factory down :( 
<charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: let's me plan pages out without using wiki.ubuntu.com for it. I just copy and paste when I build them. 
<charlie-tca> http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition
<AlanBell> wiki.ubuntu.com is actually likely to be somewhat fixed soonish
<charlie-tca> It just saves a lot of frustration doing it on my own computer first
<AlanBell> yeah, I understand totally
 * charlie-tca been hearing wiki.ubuntu.com will be fixed soon for a l-o-n-g time
<AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
<charlie-tca> besides, it keeps me from complaining too loudly to the website people.
<AlanBell> yeah, I have been pestering them for over a year, but now there is an actual running test instance of 1.9.1 with Xapian turned on and a getuser cache patch
<charlie-tca> That will help a lot!
<AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/GetSubscribersSlow
<charlie-tca> that is a nice page. Will we get it?
<AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo actually running 1.9.2
<charlie-tca> I got 1.9.3 running here, but have to use python2.6 for it to work
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-08
<AlanBell> still a few bugs, user preferences doesn't work for me
<AlanBell> bradm is doing the work and is in australia so well out of my time zone
<AlanBell> and adding a page subscription doesn't seem to invalidate the cache like it should so that needs fixing
<charlie-tca> but it is still a gain
<charlie-tca> anything on getting the theme we want?
<AlanBell> yeah, that was put up on 27th May, but there was no performance increase until yesterday when I found the GetSubscriberSlow patch for them to implement
<AlanBell> no, not discussed themes at the moment
<AlanBell> that involves different people
<charlie-tca> heh, sorry
<charlie-tca> I would be happy with something that doesn't fail every page change
<AlanBell> me too
<charlie-tca> I am back to "modern" theme, since none of the sidebar themes work right anymore. Too many fixed size headers and stuff
<AlanBell> I use light, but I don't like it that much
<AlanBell> just wish they had stuck with the old Ubuntu theme and changed the brown to orange and the font to the ubuntu font
<charlie-tca> agreed. It would have worked better
<phillw> I know the feeling
<phillw> sorry, was away on dogs needing out duties :)
<phillw> and for something quite spectacular, next time you want to just have a couple of minutes of a fantastic 1.5 minute long vid, have a look at https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fvimeo.com%2F21294655&h=1dfd1 It left me speechless, (his two other vids plus his photography work is also pretty breathtaking). About the 1st time I've found FaceBook to be of use!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-09
<Pendulum> ooh, a cool accessibility note about today's google doodle: http://kestrell.livejournal.com/642665.html
<maco> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-accessibility.html
<charlie-tca> blank page for me. Got a heading
<MrChrisDruif> Pretty big page with me
<charlie-tca> That's the third page I have seen, with the same heading, and part of the same url, does nothing here
<charlie-tca> it is blank
<MrChrisDruif> Filled with lots of text
<charlie-tca> This is what I get - http://imagebin.org/157582
<charlie-tca> status.ubuntu.com seems to do it, this is the third page from there the same for me
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; did you try an other browser? Might be FF doing it?
 * MrChrisDruif is using Chromium Daily O:-) but Chromium Stable should suffice just as well
<charlie-tca> no, I would think any official ubuntu page should display in firefox
<MrChrisDruif> Should, but just check to be sure?
<Pendulum> It's fine in firefox for me
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: do you have javascript enabled?
<charlie-tca> hm, midori I can actually see the dots
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: no, that might be it
<charlie-tca> I keep it disabled
<Pendulum> I think that's probably the problem (looking at the page source)
<charlie-tca> That could be. I have had it disabled for years 
<maco> the charts are all JS
 * maco off to sign language practice
 * MrChrisDruif waves goodbye to maco 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-10
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I know you're asleep now, but if when you get up you can release jussi's forward from the kubuntu-devel list that would be wonderful :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I mean forward to our mailing list
<charlie-tca> a good article - http://nicepaul.com/2011/06/08/accessibility-youre-doing-it-wrong/
<charlie-tca> The answer to being unable to read http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/   is to turn off the minimum font size
<charlie-tca> even zooming too much will make the pages disappear
<JanC> heh, that's a weird effect  âº
<charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-work-items-tracker/+bug/795623
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 795623 in launchpad-work-items-tracker "Can not use minimum font size and can not zoom page" [Undecided,New]
<charlie-tca> phillw: I am tossing your nick around for help with a11y on websites
<TheMuso> Pendulum: i don't see anything from Jussie in te ubuntu accessibility mailing list queue.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-06-07
<davmor2> Hey guys what would stop the accessibility layers in gnome from seeing a change from gtk to webkit in a frame?  I'm trying to automate Software Center using ldtp which automates via the a11y layer only when it changes from application more info page to the sso login page the page details don't change
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-06-08
<AlanBell> yay, my merge was accepted for bug 1010179
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1010179 in ubiquity "orca reads "replace windows with Ubuntu" when windows was not installed" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1010179
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-06-10
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/the-year-of-gnome-accessibility/
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-06-04
<oneironaut> <3
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-06-07
<bitplane> Hi, I have an accessibility issue to report
<bitplane> the volume slider is a track with a grabber on it, you can move it by scrolling, by keyboard, by dragging the grabber.. or, and this is my issue: by clicking the track
<bitplane> the problem is that you must click directly on the track, not a pixel above or below it, it's unforgiving in the precision required to do so
<bitplane> this is unsuitable for left-handed surfing in my case, I don't have the precision
<bitplane> specially when I need to get that volume down quickly because the video I'm viewing is both loud and embarrassingly disgusting
<bitplane> I don't like to feel judged or to wake my SO up with squealing noises. so less of the frantic clicking around the track with my clumsy left hand would be ideal
<bitplane> oh and the juicy bits: I'm running 13.04, this problem applies to Totem, the system-wide volume control, the volume controls in gnome-control-center and rhythmbox
<bitplane> #gnome on gimpnet say it isn't an issue in gnome 3.8
<bitplane> so could be 3.6 related
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-06-03
<saladin442> hello. can we have orca 3.16 installed on ubuntu 15.04?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-06-05
<saladin442> hi anyone on this irc channel?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-06-06
<saladin442> WHY So less? 10 people only?
