#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-29
<jsgotangco> hey all
<highvoltage> hey jsgotangco 
<highvoltage> oh, you typed that more than an hour ago :) i just woke up
<jsgotangco> highvoltage, wow you're early
<jsgotangco> highvoltage, have you made progress in your troubleshooting guide?
<highvoltage> yes, a bit. it's about 35% done between version 1 and 2
<highvoltage> i have lots of other distractions at the moment, the tuxlab help desk is also proof-reading as i edit, that helps.
<jsgotangco> ok thanks no worries about it
<jsgotangco> i'll beposting an update later on the cookbook
<highvoltage> ok.
<jeffsch> jsgotangco! howz it goin eh?
<jsgotangco> hey jeffsch!
<k31th> yo
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> hello
<rwabel> mdke: did you alraedy upgrade to breezy?
<jsgotangco> rwabel, i did whats up
<rwabel> just wondering if it's still save to dist-upgrade when apt tells u 168 packages are going to be removed
<rwabel> 746 upgraded, 241 newly installed, 168 to remove and 31 not upgraded.
<jsgotangco> sure because those packages are not going to be used anymore
<jsgotangco> or have been replaced
<rwabel> it also seems to be quit like that, because some are dev packages some will be changed. but I'm afraid if one of them are important for the system
<jsgotangco> don't upgrade to breezy if you're going to use it for veryday work
<rwabel> strange is also why lyx, mysqlcc, noatun-plugins, xfmedia will be removed
<rwabel> I know, I can live with that and with working out problems...I just want to have the transition to breezy going well :-) from warty to hoary it was much easier
<jsgotangco> we're only in Colony 3 its extremely buggy
<jsgotangco> yesterday the installer was borked at stage 2
<rwabel> it's already much better than before the gcc and xorg transition :-)
<rwabel> in any case I've the list of the packages getting removed. I can always try to install important one's later 
<rwabel> when they get fixed
<jsgotangco> anyone awake at this time?
<highvoltage> yes.
<highvoltage> many people, all over the world are.
<highvoltage> :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<mpt> Planet Earth. We Never Sleep.
<highvoltage> earth, the planet that never sleeps :)
<highvoltage> nah, I think "mostly harmless" describes it better.
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> mpt: i can't still archive-mirror
<jsgotangco> i should file a bug
<mpt> jsgotangco: Yes, https://launchpad.net/products/bazaar/+bugs
<mpt> jsgotangco: Sorry you had such a bad experience
<jsgotangco> nahhh its ok at least i learned stuff
<jsgotangco> i really want UbuntuHelp but no one seems to be interested
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: http://www.ubuntu-pk.org/ubuntu_training.pdf
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: will check now... (just finishing a large download)
<jsgotangco> good night
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: good night!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-30
<jsgotangco> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia hows it going
<Burgundavia> tired
<Burgundavia> busy today at work
<jsgotangco> ahh nice :)
<jsgotangco> i'll not bug you then on QuickTour
<jsgotangco> :)
<Burgundavia> going to work on it tonight
<Burgundavia> after I dig out from email
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what do you think of creating a sneak preview article on 5.10
<Burgundavia> 'bout half done that (of 300
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> the quick tour is that, no?
<jsgotangco> well yeah
<jsgotangco> i guess so
<jsgotangco> nvm
<Burgundavia> plus we really don't have the time and people to create anything else right now
<jsgotangco> i have colony 3 i can whip up a small article this weekend and show what's new
<jsgotangco> hi robitaille 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, honestly, best to put that effort into the quicktour
<Burgundavia> I am really worried we are not going to get it done in time
<jsgotangco> ok so should i wait for your commit or i make a draft later?
<Burgundavia> work on the wiki
<Burgundavia> I will start committed RSN
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> i like working offline somethings though
<Burgundavia> then write offline, no problem
<Burgundavia> I find the best time to write marketing is away fromt eh computer 
<robitaille> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, we'll let JaneW handle project management next time and make sure whoever goes to Montreal, there will be a documentation BOF
<jsgotangco> we'll make it part of the whole project process overall
<jsgotangco> its kinda hard to be separated from everyone
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I should be in Montreal. I don't see any reason why not
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you're a shoo-in i dont know about anyone else
<jsgotangco> maybe those in north america
<Burgundavia> matt galvin maybe
<Burgundavia> not very expensive NA <--> Europe
<jsgotangco> that's nice to know
<Burgundavia> robitaille is not going to apply (no time off work). Neither is Sean, from what I understand
<Burgundavia> you and rob^ are unlikely, do to location
<Burgundavia> s/do/due
<robitaille> got to pay the rent somehow :)
<Burgundavia> so do I
<Burgundavia> but I don't have kids and a wife
<jsgotangco> my application sponsorship would be an uphill battle
<judax> greetings
<jsgotangco> judax, hey
* robitaille looks forward to finally meet the Burger brothers tommorow night
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I hope you come, just so that we can meet and coordinate
<jsgotangco> i want to make sure we'll write specs this time
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> so the mess with rob^ and myself won't happen again
<Burgundavia> I also want to drop a bunch of docs
<jsgotangco> i want to push UbuntuHelp actually
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> and drop the Admin/User guide
<Burgundavia> the wiki can fill those holes
<jsgotangco> how long is Victoria to Montreal by plane?
<jsgotangco> an hour or 2?
<Burgundavia> 4
<jsgotangco> wow
<Burgundavia> Canada is a big country
<Burgundavia> and Montreal is not even the extreme east of Canada
<jsgotangco> is that on a 747?
<Burgundavia> a 737 or smaller airbus
<Burgundavia> not enough traffic to justify big planes
<jsgotangco> well i can imagine BC is on the west side and quebec on central
<jsgotangco> when i went to sydney it was 8 hours on a 737
<robitaille> jsgotangco: I once did a trip Victoria- St Johns newfoundland; so from tip to tip west-east, left very early in the morning arrived very late at night; 
<Burgundavia> you also have 4.5 hours of timechange working against you
<jsgotangco> if i ever do come, i'll be a few hours younger for sure
<robitaille> exactly.  Air Canada could manage to do it. At the time Canadian Airlines was offering cheap seats, but you couldn't even do it in the same day with their schedule
<robitaille> It's actually probably cheaper in a lot of cases to fly London-Montreal than Victoria-Montreal
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, how long was your flight when you went to Mataro?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<robitaille> a lot of discount between Europe and Montreal and Toronto
<Burgundavia> I went Victoria --> Vancouver --> Minn/St. Paul --> London --> Barcelona
<Burgundavia> each leg was 4 to 6 hours
<Burgundavia> except for Vic -> Van
<Burgundavia> that is 25 minutes
<jsgotangco> Minn?
<Burgundavia> Minneapolis
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> stange that Vancouver didnt have a flight to London direct
<Burgundavia> they did
<robitaille> they do. but you can't always get a seat
<Burgundavia> it was cheaper to go that way
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<Burgundavia> Minn/St. Paul is the hub of Northwest
<jsgotangco> right
<Burgundavia> not a bad airport actually
<Burgundavia> and Northwest isn't a bad airline
<Burgundavia> Ryan was total shite though
<Burgundavia> felt like being a plastic plane, and I ended up only saving about $20
<jsgotangco> northwest has good planes
<jsgotangco> but the best planes for me are still singapore airlines and emirates
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> i once got to ride a propeller plane in malaysia i was so scared
<jsgotangco> i think the plane was like 35 years old
* jsgotangco faints at the sight of gnucash
<Burgundavia> back on topic, someone needs to get snapping on the faqguide as default front page
<Burgundavia> should we contact jdub for help about that?
<Burgundavia> it should be done by the preview
<jsgotangco> sure tranformed to html already?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<jsgotangco> the faqguide is profiled it wont render to Yelp correctly
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> then that needs to be fixed
<jsgotangco> it will show both Ubuntu/Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> the transformation to HTML needs to split into 2 docs
<jsgotangco> we have a scheduled meet tommorow at 14UTC
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> I thought we need
<Burgundavia> s/need/did
<Burgundavia> (that was an odd typo)
<jsgotangco> mgalvin can fill in to the packaging 
<Burgundavia> ok, can you fire off an email to the list about that?
<jsgotangco> the meeting? yes i am planning to do it after lunch
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> at the meeting we can discuss the technical details on faqguide as default I guess
<jsgotangco> let me add that to the wiki now
* Burgundavia has just finished dealing with all his email!
<robitaille> tell me about it;  that laptop is a sink of time.  I'm behind everything else online
<Burgundavia> glad mine mostly works, I will do a major bug filing later on the minor stuff
<Burgundavia> you know, almost everyday the fonts look different in FF
* jsgotangco checks robitaille's report
<Burgundavia> not in any other app, just there
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i noticed
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  I'm doing it later tonight
<jsgotangco> the wiki fonts look kind of washed now..
<Burgundavia> it is because FF is actually a really shitty program
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what does Fn+F1 do to your A5
<Burgundavia> lock screen, but does nothing
<jsgotangco> how about Fn+F8
<Burgundavia> and on windows it doesn't even call the real windows lock screen util
<Burgundavia> wireless on/off, unknown if it works
<jsgotangco> it doesnt
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<Burgundavia> our laptops have mostly the same keys
<jsgotangco> it frickin works
<jsgotangco> holy crap it did work
<jsgotangco> if i do it, the notification shows that its disconnected
<Burgundavia> cool
<jsgotangco> i turn it back on and i get the full signal
<Burgundavia> what notification?
<jsgotangco> i mean the network monitor (i added one for eth1)
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> i dont think bluetooth as a monitor of sorts
<jsgotangco> bluetooth seems to be turned on by default (no idea)
* Burgundavia sets to work on the QuickTour
<jsgotangco> would it be a good idea to subscribe to the whole wiki
<Burgundavia> 30/40 messages a day?
<jsgotangco> thats not so bad
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  it gets busy.  325 messages in the last 2 days
<jsgotangco> woooo
<Burgundavia> the wiki is only getting busier
<jsgotangco> how do you subscribe to the whole wiki?
<robitaille> it used to be 30/40....before the laptop team
<Burgundavia> yah
<robitaille> subscrube to .*
<jsgotangco> i can just make a separate email account
<robitaille> filter to its own folder will do nicely
<robitaille> then I quickly scan, usually once a day to see if anything is worth looking at
<jsgotangco> gmail doesnt have folders only tags
<robitaille> in that context, tags = folder
<Burgundavia> yes it does
<Burgundavia> yes can remove it from the inbox
* Burgundavia needs Beethoven to work on the quicktour, not dance
<robitaille> a lot of MOTU stuff on the wiki in the last 24 hours
<jsgotangco> bah
<jsgotangco> you need Slipknot
<Burgundavia> my brain is just about shot already
<Burgundavia> Beethoven has no words
<jsgotangco> he's pretty stoned back then
<jsgotangco> we just call it classical now
<jsgotangco> but back then he was the crack
<Burgundavia> what is the scope of gnome-keyring?
<Burgundavia> by default it does mounted shares only?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, where is that?
<Burgundavia> the thing that pops up when you mount an ftp share
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> is it 2.12 specific?
<Burgundavia> no
* jsgotangco hasn't tried mounting anythign at all
<jsgotangco> Places -> Connect to Server ?
<robitaille> jsgotangco: yes.  Then you can mount a ftp, sftp, etc
<robitaille> it's an old thing.  I do it in gnome 2.6 at work
<Burgundavia> ok, take a look at the Quick Tour now
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, add on OOo about the new OOo Base
<Burgundavia> ah yes
<jsgotangco> and launchpad integration
<jsgotangco> hmm also language selector
<Burgundavia> already there
<Burgundavia> check under the rough work section
<jsgotangco> ahh right i was just looking at the boxes
<jsgotangco> OOo2 and evolution are supposed to have tighter integration but it doesnt seem to work over here
<Burgundavia> what is this Get Help online thing in LP integration
<Burgundavia> not going to promote it right now
<jsgotangco> hmm add SMEG
<Burgundavia> menu editing a feature
<Burgundavia> not really something we market around
<jsgotangco> you can just put a blurb in Easy customization, the app is ubuntu-specific anyways
<Burgundavia> hmm
<jsgotangco> Send To add another needless click..
* Burgundavia will conquer the docbook and make it look good
<jsgotangco> good luck..it will look good but not as what you envision
<Burgundavia> what is new and cool in Rhythmbox
<jsgotangco> docbook isnt for formatting
<Burgundavia> maybe then we just do it in HTML
<jsgotangco> much better
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, its actually possible in docbook, but with wicked css
<jsgotangco> and not entirely sure of yelp's css
<Burgundavia> I will get my CSS-fooed in brother to help me tomorrow night then
<Burgundavia> if we do it in HTML, I need to figure out a way to do it in PDF as well
<jsgotangco> hmmm do it in OOo?
<jsgotangco> we can probably use Draw
<Burgundavia> html2ps
<jsgotangco> or Inkscape
<Burgundavia> and then ps2pdf
<Burgundavia> or htmldoc
<Burgundavia> can you do po files from html?
<jsgotangco> i have no idea
<jsgotangco> for i18n?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> I need some words to promote the GIMP
<jsgotangco> GIMP is too complicated
<jsgotangco> (for most people)
<jsgotangco> it would have been a different story if we had F-Spot and it is completed
<Burgundavia> gimp for image editing, dammit
<Burgundavia> f-spot is totally different app for a different purpose
<jsgotangco> f-spot will have some editing functions
<Burgundavia> yes, but it will not replace the gimp
<jsgotangco> majority of desktop users have no need for filters and channels
<Burgundavia> yes, but the marketing doc must reach everybody
<Burgundavia> honestly, to most people, power image editing is something that costs hundreds of dollars
* jsgotangco checks what is the difference of gimp in breezy
<Burgundavia> not something included, by default, for free
<jsgotangco> well yes
<Burgundavia> notice what I said about easy software installation?
<jsgotangco> but we can't say we have a Photoshop 4 alternative when Photoshop is already at version 7 or 8
<Burgundavia> "... at no cost"
<Burgundavia> GIMP is different and almost as powerful
<jsgotangco> im aware of that but people will still compare no matter what
<jsgotangco> that's why there was a gimp skin to make it look like photoshop
<jsgotangco> wow i didnt notice active windows blink
<jsgotangco> at the taskbar
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the gimp and inkscape are the kind of apps that appeal to the certain set of users
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, GIMP doesn't even install a help document by default
<Burgundavia> as if we can make them say "wow!" about ubuntu, then that is cool
<Burgundavia> yes, I realize that
<Burgundavia> I don't understand why you don't want to talk about it
<jsgotangco> i don't mind talking about it, i just don't want a document that is too specific to segment that probably 80% of users dont really use
<jsgotangco> wow that was good english
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> it is probably better if we add gimp, inkscape, and whatever that is in Main that is about image/multimedia in one section
<Burgundavia> inkscape is not installed by default
<Burgundavia> I wish it was
<jsgotangco> is it in the CD?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i dont think so
<Burgundavia> no
<jsgotangco> the graphics menu isn't really interesting to begin with
<Burgundavia> where did evince go?
<jsgotangco> its not in the menu but PDFs open up with it
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> why did they remove it from the menus?
<jsgotangco> no idea (xpdf is nowhere in sight either)
<jblack> Hi guys. 
<Burgundavia> hey
<jsgotangco> hi jblack 
<Madpilot> hi everyone
<jsgotangco> jblack, Sept. 10 - PPV!
<jblack> So, I bet there's probably a good reason. :) 
<Burgundavia> historical
<jblack> jsgotangco: PPV? Pay Per View? 
<Burgundavia> one of the old doc team members set up an offsite svn repo
<jblack> any other big reasons? 
<Burgundavia> inertia?
<Burgundavia> there is some confusion over exactly what baz brings us
<jsgotangco> yes, and the other ones that came in are svn users
<Burgundavia> and the one burning question I have is, this
<Burgundavia> What branch gets released as "ubuntu help" and who controls that branch?
<jblack> in a hypotethical bazaar context? 
<Burgundavia> more of a social issue, but I wondered what you thought of it
<Burgundavia> ya
<jblack> Yeah. We've had that question before on other projects, and have a pretty good answer.
* Burgundavia is not surprised
<jsgotangco> i've used Baz with mpt and i got confused on that as well
<jblack> What we normally do is setup something called pqm (that stands for patch queue manager). You could imagine pqm as an overgrown procmail 
<Burgundavia> and people push to there?
<jblack> That pqm is responsible for maintining the official branch. Then pqm is taught about good people (typically gpg signed emails), which can instruct pqm what,who what, where to do things on the archive's behalf.
<Burgundavia> the archive being the one that is "ubuntu help", in this context
<jblack> Theres some good side effects to that too, of course, such as being able to run doc tests.... 
<jblack> Are there any hard core people subversion people involved in ubuntu docs? 
<jsgotangco> not lately
<jblack> They absolutely love the tech and would fall on their swords..
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> I can already think of someone who would benefit ( rob^ )
<jsgotangco> i've tried it and i like it
<Burgundavia> so have I
<Burgundavia> (as much as I like any command-line app0
<jsgotangco> the acid test is on archive-mirror
<Burgundavia> jblack, how are you guys doing at svn imports (saving history, etc.)
<jblack> jsgotangco: Just so happens that i run the supermirror. The supermirror can give push archives to anybody, if that's a sticking point. 
<jblack> burgundavia: Pretty good. 
<jsgotangco> jblack, it segfaults
<jblack> Sometimes we have to prop up a sagging wall here or there, but usually we get things thorugh. 
<jblack> jsgotangco: What segfaults? 
<jsgotangco> archive-mirror to the super mirror
<jsgotangco> when mpt was teaching me
<jblack> That's horrible. 
<jsgotangco> i have yet to do a bug
<jblack> I'll make a note on that -- on _paper_. Thats important 
<jsgotangco> i can replicate it
<Burgundavia> jblack, we spoke at Mataro about baz. But then my life got in the way and I didn't do much with the doc team.
<jsgotangco> and report it
<jblack> jsgotangco: That would definitely help gobs.
<jblack> I think we're rushing ahead a little fast. 
<jsgotangco> ok let's go back..the question is how are we going to migrate the whole documents at the moment in svn
<jblack> I'd like to spend a couple days on this to make sure that everybody would be happy if we switched. If not, why. If there's a why, how does it get fixed.. so on and so on.
<jsgotangco> that's around 200MB but it should lessen post breezy
<Burgundavia> we drop some stuff
<Burgundavia> s/we drop/we can drop
<jblack> I'll make sure there's a good structure, assuming this is the right thing to do. =)
<jsgotangco> i want baz, not sure if others do
<jblack> What can you guys tell me about the team, socially speaking? How many people, what percentage are active.. what the social dynamics are. 
<Burgundavia> I don't see any reason why baz is bad thing
<jsgotangco> we've started it with UbuntuHelp
<Burgundavia> 4 or 5 maybe active in SVN
<Burgundavia> varies at times
<Burgundavia> people mostly work on their own things
<Burgundavia> 2 working on one doc (faqguide)
<jblack> Roughly how many are invovled on a specific subject? 
<Burgundavia> usually only one at the moment
<Burgundavia> we are stretched pretty thin
<jblack> (btw: I really appreciate you guys talking with me about this. You're really helping me catch up to this very quickly) 
<Burgundavia> the faqguide has 2 working on it
<jblack> You mean there's only 4 or 5 concurrant contributors at any given time? 
<Burgundavia> usually
<jblack> Holy shlt. How do you guys pull that off? 
<Burgundavia> we sort of don
<Burgundavia> 't
<Burgundavia> we are also very badly coordinated
<jblack> Heh. From the number of people that manage to run ubuntu with minimal problems, I think you pull it off better than you give yourself credit for. :) 
<Burgundavia> that is not our work
<Madpilot> there's a lot more people involved in the wiki, but far fewer "hardcore" Doc folks
<jblack> So 4 or 5 solid people (two of which are you two) , a lot of loose, occasional people (I'm guessing perhaps ~ 20?)? 
<Burgundavia> probably around 10, but ya
<jblack> Who are the other 2 or 3 active these days? 
<jsgotangco> jblack, the stumbling block really is the format used and our commit method
<ajmitch> that's even less than the MOTUs
<Burgundavia> rob^ and mgalvin
<Burgundavia> the faqguide people
<Burgundavia> jjesse does some kde stuff
<jblack> and rob^ is pro ubuntu. How about mgalvin? 
<Burgundavia> and jeffsch is our style guide guy
<jblack> pardon, pro baz
<Burgundavia> never heard anything either way
<jblack> So they'd likely be open.
<Burgundavia> the major sticking point has sort of left eh doc team
<Burgundavia> Sean Wheller
<jblack> If you don't mind me asking, who was that, and why? 
<Burgundavia> he does docs for a job and unknown reasons
<jsgotangco> he's the documentation expert really
<robitaille> when is the doc team meeting?  25th or 26th?  wiki + agenda has 26th.  topic in #u-meeting has 25t
* Burgundavia makes rude noises
<jsgotangco> robitaille, 26
<robitaille> ok.  I'll change the topic
<jsgotangco> robitaille, thanks
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is moving it to friday
<Burgundavia> (not objecting, just wondering
<jblack> Ok. This sounds promising. You've got me invested and ready to follow you on the process issues. 
* jblack pulls out graph paper
<Burgundavia> after the 5th we will be much more ready to rock the boat
<ajmitch> jblack: we'll have to talk about how baz can help the MOTUs at some point
<Burgundavia> as after that we stop writing
<jblack> ajmitch: Yeah. Thats coming, and soon at that. 
<Burgundavia> until then, lets stick with svn
<jblack> today is the... 25th or so..
<jblack> I don't think thats going to be a problem. ;) 
<Burgundavia> so the week of the 5th you want to start pulling into baz?
<Burgundavia> we can work until late October and hopefully I will be in Montreal and we can look things over
<jblack> Well, what sort of load average are you guys running? 
<Burgundavia> # commits/day?
<jblack> human wise. 
<Burgundavia> overloaded
<jblack> Yeah. going bald from stress stuff. 
<ajmitch> sounds familiar
<Burgundavia> running into time crunches
<jblack> Don't worry. I won't screw you guys up right before release. 
<Burgundavia> thanks
<jblack> Its better to get release out of the way, and have time to fix unexpected mistakes.
<jsgotangco> jblack, going back to my segfault..its too cryptic..anything more verbose?
<jblack> jsgotangco: Sure... Freed memory is being written to somewhere. ;) 
<jblack> If you can put up a reproducable bug, we'll chase it down.
<jsgotangco> i'd file a bug, but there isn't much to look
<jsgotangco> it just says Segmentations Fault
<jblack> Well, thats definitely an important part to mention in the bug report.
<jblack> Another important part to mention is the exact steps you take to get to where you were.
<jsgotangco> i'll just copy paste my terminal output
<jblack> Oh, I wouldn't be able to fix it tonight. Sorry. :( 
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> i just dont know what is wrong
<jsgotangco> and not really sure where to start
<jeffsch> howdy dudes
<jsgotangco> i can merge with mpt's supermirror but cannot archive-mirror to mine
<jblack> And you don't need to. Thats our problem, becoming your problem. I'm happy to trade you a bugfix for switching in the near future. 
<jblack> mpt has a supermirror? 
<jblack> You mean sourcecontrol.net? 
<jsgotangco> yes
<jblack> Heh. Thats not mpt's. ;) 
<jsgotangco> well ok yours then :)
<jsgotangco> as i did one myself
<jblack> Actually, its the company's now, but it started in my basement. :) 
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, you have a lot more work that must be done than we do
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: but more time
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, not really
<jblack> Ok. So you guys have alluded that there's potential process problems... you're looking at 200 megs of data, you're not well organized, you're overloaded, what else? 
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, we can't really start writing until there is something to write about
<Burgundavia> jblack, we have social issues with keeping contributors? (not really something you can fix)
<jsgotangco> lol
<jblack> Actually, I could give some advice on that at another time, if you like.. 
<Burgundavia> we can chat at Montreal
<jblack> I've managed over the years to get people to work for free for months at a time. 
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: if I can help out..
<jeffsch> the issues are not all social though... most have jobs and real life to contend with
* Burgundavia thinks his abbrasive manner is a social issue...
<jblack> burgundavia: Have we met before, perhaps UBU? 
<jblack> UDU, that is
<Burgundavia> jblack, no Mataro
<jblack> Wow, that was what? Maybe 30 years ago? 
<jblack> What do you look like? Got a pic? 
<Burgundavia> I am on planet
<Burgundavia> under august 16th
<jblack> Corey? 
<Burgundavia> Kinnison and I made lots of jokes about chocolate sprinkles and camera man
<Burgundavia> indeed
<jblack> Yeah! I remember you!
* jblack notes that burgundavia is an official cool dude
<Burgundavia> I was supposed to write some docs for the Hoary cycle
<Burgundavia> and never did
<Burgundavia> well, my job was hell at the time and my gf was breaking up with me, but still
<jblack> Heh. Know what that was like. I'm just wrapping up a divorce that was only 1/2 of the way through at Mataro.
<Burgundavia> I seem to remember talking about it
<jblack> I guess I blab about that too much. :|
<jblack> Ok. So, what can you guys tell me about the process? 
<ajmitch> I hadn't even seen Ubuntu by Mataro
<Burgundavia> well, usually you send patches to the list
<Burgundavia> and after a while we give you a svn account
<jsgotangco> process of committing?
<jsgotangco> we ask elmo to create one
<Burgundavia> and then you wait and wait and wait...
<jblack> Ok. So far, so good. I can map that easily.
<jsgotangco> lol
<Burgundavia> and did I mention you wait some more?
<jblack> What happens after you wait? 
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, I also funded myself to Mataro, which was a little crazy
<jsgotangco> until you bug the CC and elmo does the accounts
<Burgundavia> jblack, eventually you get an account and then you commit
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: that might cost a bit much for me to get to Montreal
<jblack> Ok. Not a problem at all.
<jblack> How is your tree set up? 
<Burgundavia> you chose something that interests you and work on that
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, we can start swimming this weekend
<jsgotangco> jblack, most people do at trunk
<jblack> You said 200 megs. Is it easily divisable into more maneagable chunks? 
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: alright, you'll call in to NZ on the way past?
<jsgotangco> at the end of the cycle someone branches
<Burgundavia> usually this involves pissing off at least one other member of team ;)
<jsgotangco> (but i dont think we'll have a branch after this)
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: btw, sounds like I might be getting roped into running a python miniconf at LCA
<Burgundavia> jblack, one of our problems is lack of speccing out what we are doing beforehand
<jsgotangco> then the branch is merged back to trunk
<Burgundavia> jblack, something I intend to make certain it is remeded for the dapper cycle
<Burgundavia> s/dapper/breezy +1
<jeffsch> jblack: yes, it can be divided.
<Burgundavia> jblack, we have several upstream vendor drops of their docs, god knows why
<jblack> Ahh. You branch, somebody keeps working on the old trunk for awhile, and his code gets hosed.
<Burgundavia> no, the trunk is frozen
<jblack> how many different... components.. are there in the docs? 
<Burgundavia> we have to stop writing on the 5th, for the translators
<Burgundavia> jblack, our work is very burst oriented
<jsgotangco> at the beginning there is no activity
<Burgundavia> we need to get a lot done is a short cycle (usually the last 2 1/2 months of the release
<Burgundavia> and stuff like my QuickTour really can't be done until after FeatureFreeze
<jeffsch> jblack: the best way to see how many different components there are and what they are is to take a look at our repos
<jsgotangco> this release has been a nightmare because of a non working X
<jblack> would you believe me if I told you that I don't have subversion? 
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> its understandable
<jeffsch> you can browse from the web
<jblack> How many pieces could the docs be broken up into without screwing up with dependancy relationships? 
<jeffsch> i will find the link, hold on...
<jblack> yeah, viewsvn
<Burgundavia> hmm
<jblack> btw, happy birthday, Burgundavia.
<jblack> Mine was on the 12th. :) 
<jeffsch> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/
<Burgundavia> all of our docs depend on some common pieces
<Burgundavia> author stuff and license stuff
<jblack> Not a problem there
<Burgundavia> thus they all need to be in one place
<Burgundavia> but the vendor drops I would just drop
<jsgotangco> we have a global entity file that docs refer to most of the time
<jblack> THe common pieces are framework stuff that usually doesn't change much, I presume
<Burgundavia> yes
<jblack> Have you worked with configs before? 
<jeffsch> what do you mean by "configs"?
<jblack> jeffsch: Its slightly complicated. Let me check with burg. to know if he's familiar with them yet.
<Burgundavia> jblack, no
<jblack> Ok, well, I'm not suggesting anything (at least not _yet_ :) ), but...
<jblack> bazaar 1.x has these things called configs. They're basically text files that say "in this directory, put that branch". rinse, cycle, repeat.
<Burgundavia> ah
<jblack> Its slightly doughy in the center (for example, you can update every branch that you pulled from a config automatically), but that sounds like it may not be a problem for you guys.
<jblack> So, I'm thinking maybe a kde config, a gnome config, so forth and so on...
<jblack> I'd have to look at the full tree carefully first, and fully identify the logical identity between directories. 
<jblack> That said, we could also look at doing something similiar with bazaar 2, but with a custom script. 
<jblack> (bazaar 2, aka bzr, which is ironically at 0.0.6, doesn't have any concept of a config built in)
<jeffsch> is bzr compatible with baz?
<jblack> lifeless reminds me of a neat tool he wrote, called config manager. 
<jblack> So that solves that. 
<jblack> In fact, using config manager, we could even consider migrating you guys a step at a time. :) 
<jsgotangco> what does config do? it knows who works on gnome/kde?
<jsgotangco> etc/
<jblack> jsgotangco: A config file is simply a file that some human wrote that says "I need to build a directory tree. Please put these branches in these dirs" 
<jblack> So its like automating a whole bunch of nested svn checkouts.
<jsgotangco> i see
<jsgotangco> do you guys have a visual image of the whole process in baz?
<jeffsch> hmm... I don't think i have ever had to do any nested svn checkouts on docteam 
<jblack> jsgotangco: A visual one.... though thats a good idea, I don't know of such a thing. 
<jblack> jeffsch: Normally, in svn I don't believe you have to. You can carve off dirs during pull, iirc.
<jblack> Would it help you guys visualize it if I put an example config on the web to look at? 
<jeffsch> yes. that's my point :)
<jblack> Yeah. Thats one of the benefits of the way they do things. 
<jblack> (Hey! Anybody that told you that they had a solution to solve all problems would be lying) 
<jsgotangco> well a whole process flow would be helpful...svn is kinda easy to get into
<jsgotangco> you just push and pull
<jblack> Ok... let me tell you a story then...
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<jblack> The name of the guy in this story is.... How does Barry McVoy sound to you? 
<jsgotangco> ok
<jblack> Don't confuse Barry with Larry! Different guys. :) 
<ajmitch> I'm sure :)
<jblack> Is somebody logging this? 
* ajmitch is
* Burgundavia is always logging
<jblack> Ok. So, let me introduce you to barry. He's your average guy. Hangs around in all the cool places, plays quake, probably drinks more coke than is good for him.
<jblack> He's heard that linux is the k3wl thing to run, installs ubuntu, and is happy for a few months. 
<jblack> One day, he decides that he gets ticked off because he's trying to do something and the docs have ticked him off. So he googles, etcs, and gets the facts straightened out.
<jblack> Realizing that others will have the same problem, he gripes at you guys. And you guys say to him "Hey! You're right! Since you've got the problem and the answer, will you make a patch for us?" 
<jblack> Barry cooperates, sends a patch off to the list, just as always. 
<jblack> He does this sort of thing off and on for a couple weeks. Finally, he gets ticked off because nobody merges his hard work on his behalf as fast as he wants.
<jblack> So far so good? 
<jeffsch> keep goin
<jblack> So, Barry decides he wants to contribue in a way that gets you guys merging his stuff. He's been paying some attention, and know you guys use this bazaar thing.
<jblack> He looks at the frequently mentioned website for how to get started on working on docs. 
<jblack> The docs tell him that he needs to run "apt-get bazaar". He then also needs to download a neat little script called.. oh lets say ubdoc... 
<jblack> He does this, and goes back to the site, which tells him that he needs to run "ubdoc pull <somename>, which is a list of names at the website.
<jblack> ubdoc runs bazaar on his part, and he's got a directory tree with all of the parts he needs. 
<jblack> It just happens. 
<jblack> Barry makes some changes, and is happy with his fixes. He goes back to the website, and sees that the next thing for him to do is run "ubdoc test". He does this, finds out theres a problem in his doc fix. He fixes again, runs ubdoc fix again, and its happy this time.
<jblack> now, he runs.. oh lets say "ubdoc commit 'Big typo in kde docs'. 
<jblack> That gets pushed to a supermirror archive, and you guys can merge him directly. 
<jblack> It also emails a list, so you guys know its there. 
<jblack> Still ok? 
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> but its his own patch not upstream
<jsgotangco> you're telling us that upstream will merge his patch
<jsgotangco> ?
<jblack> In the story I'm telling you here, You will merge his patch.
<jblack> is that wrong? 
<jeffsch> jblack: it is different. i can't say it's better though.
<jsgotangco> no
<jblack> Ok. This is actually a long story. Barry is ambitious, and eventually runs ubuntu-doc. :) 
<jblack> This works pretty well for awhile. Barry gets a bit curious and learns that this ubdoc is just a shell wrapper for a much more powerful tool. 
<jblack> He pokes around in the script, reads some docs, and gets more interested in bazaar.
<jblack> He also keeps working on the docs, btw.
<jblack> A couple months goes by, and you guys are tired of merging him. He's too active to maintain that way.
<jblack> so you guys tell somebody that he needs pqm access. 
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jblack> From Barry's perspective, though, things change a bit. 
<jblack> By now, he's given up ubdoc, because he likes doing the cool stuff like diffing this that and the other. :) 
<jblack> and now, he gets to learn pqm. He learns that he needs gnupg, and that he has to run a different script to send requests for his code to be merged directly.
<jblack> Lets call that... pcommit. 
<jblack> Now, these days, he runs "get-kdedoc", which is a shell script he wrote that grabs the appropriate config file and builds the tree for him.
<jblack> He then hacks the kde docs, runs baz commit -m "Fixed typo", and then runs pcommit "Fixed typo" (eventually, he tires of doing both, and fixes pcommit to do both at the same time....) 
<jblack> And his code is in ubuntu-docs.
<jblack> A few months goes by, everybody more senior has left.
* Burgundavia will be brb, phone
<jblack> So now Barry needs to worry about the comitters. He's long since subscrigbed to the mailing list that ubdoc silently emailed ("Hey, there's this branch with patches waiting" 
<jblack> Whenever he feels like it, he grabs an email, runs bazaar assemble http://ubuntudoc.com/kde; merge; cd docs; bazaar merge http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/someurl" (this is set up in the email so that one can cut-n-paste)
<jblack> He reviews the changes they made, is happy with them, and runs pcommit, which puts them into the official branch.
<jblack> As developers grow up and cut their teeth on doing all this, he gets _them_ added to pqm. 
<jblack> THen he finds a cute chick with a tongue ring and a rich daddy and goes off to live on a yacht for the rest of his life.
<jsgotangco> it does address the problem of waiting for an account creation
<jblack> The end.
<jeffsch> barry can do all that with only svn commit and svn update
<jsgotangco> svn commit is even a wall
<jeffsch> he is successful because he writes good docs and lots of them
<jsgotangco> if we dont even have access to account creation
<jblack> Can barry do that before he's been given svn access? 
<jsgotangco> he sends patches
<jeffsch> that thing with elmo was a glitch, plus with linode server, we are not dependent on elmo
<jblack> Yeah. 
<jblack> I could certainly embellish the story with all sorts of things.... 
<jblack> I'd probably keep you up all night though. 
<jeffsch> also, the wait for svn commit access gives us a chance to see what the writer can do
<jsgotangco> but people with commit access won't bug anyone to commit for them in svn
<jblack> For example, We could add a part that Barry is a kde developer too, and they keep their docs in bazaar. 
<jsgotangco> in here, you are bugged by an email to merge to a patch
<jblack> Then Barry is doing merges between two different, but related trees. 
<jeffsch> does kde use bazaar? does gnome?
<jblack> We can also add things like "Lets have a throaway branch" that anybody can merge into. 
<jeffsch> plus, our docs don't tend to be useable upstream anyway
<jblack> Every couple days, a developer takes a diff between the official docs and the junk branch, and if things look good, merge all 3893838 built up patches into mainline at once. 
<jeffsch> i'm playing devil's advocate here :) I am willing to try it out, but not until after breezy release
<jdub> jeffsch: they're all synced into baz, so in future, we can branch and modify
<jblack> KDE doesn't use bazaar, parts of gnome do. 
<jdub> jeffsch: which will make contributing upstream easier, and make ubuntu-specific deltas mainainable
<jblack> Yeah. In that story, people are already doing that in bazaar. 
<jsgotangco> i like the idea of branching into Gnome docs and fixing it in the process
<jsgotangco> at the same time improving our content which other might get to use as well
<jblack> Bear in mind though taht we're talking about a contrived story. Some of those parts don't exist and somebody would have to write them.
<jblack> but its conceptually doable, and not actually that hard. :)
<jeffsch> jblack: the gnome docs have screen shots that are specific to gnome default theme, but ubuntu has its own theme
<jblack> Thats not a big problem. 
<jeffsch> jblack: would it be possible to maintain two separate docs in bazaar
<jdub> jeffsch: that's just a branch with different screenshots
<jeffsch> so that all we need to keep in ubunto baz is the ubuntu screen shot?
<jblack> Sure. You can have two related branches that are similiar, but not identical.
<jdub> (though i don't think there's a massive benefit to worrying about ubuntu-theme screenshots)
<jblack> Lets say there's a pile of kde docs. You guys want ubuntu pics instead of some other pics.
<jeffsch> if the gnome text changes independently of the ubuntu screen shot, will it get updated in the ubuntu docs?
<jdub> you can merge, yes
<jdub> baz, being designed from the ground up as a distributed revision control system, has to have really slick branching and merging
<jdub> as opposed to the cvs/svn model, which has ok branching and punch-in-the-face merging
<jblack> Baz is incredible. 
<jblack> Did I tell you guys exactly when I feel in love with distributed revision control? 
<jsgotangco> the merge in svn can be sweeping
<jblack> I wanted to hack on tla, I didn't want to be stuck in the house. So I went off to the park. I did hack hack hack, commit, hack hack hack, commit. 
<jblack> I didn't need internet access, I didn't need permission to work. I just did what I wanted.
* jsgotangco is waiting for the "but wait, there's more" line...
<jdub> and got *actual revision control* in the process
<jblack> Later, when I got back, I published my changes and said "Hey, Tom, merge this"
<jblack> Yup. full fledged revision control. In fact, I actually ended up having to undo one of my patches.
<jblack> I didn't need permission from Tom to access his archive. I didn't need some sysadmin to create something special for me. 
<jblack> I had the system work according to my needs, not its needs.
<jsgotangco> you just asked
<jblack> Well, sure, I needed to ask tom to insert my code into his archive. 
<jblack> But I was able to work completely independantly. 
<jsgotangco> its up to the maintainer to accept or decline
<jsgotangco> right
<jblack> And whether or not he merged me, I _didn't care_. 
<jsgotangco> you still have your own copy
<jblack> I already had the fix for me, and if he didn't take it, I'd just keep my own local copy of tla. WHenever he changed stuff, I could merge him. 
<jsgotangco> that others might find useful
<jeffsch> jblack: that's fine for code. docs are different.
<jblack> Dude, you have no idea. Its like... its like.. having your own car.
<jblack> Different and the same.
<jblack> Sure, docs that don't get merged in don't make much sense. That's true. 
<jeffsch> "And whether or not he merged me, I _didn't care_." does not apply to docs
<jblack> But the _when_ things get merged _definitely does_ 
<jblack> I can keep working on my docs branch until you guys eventually get around to merging me. 
<jblack> I'm not stuck in a lockstep process with you guys, worried that my tree is getting too far out of date (becuase I can merge you whenever I want. I can easily keep things up to date)
<jsgotangco> it does make sense if someone outside of the core group is doing a good job on creating rad docs
<jblack> In my experience, that guys you guys one or two months of time before somebody's pissed that you're not merging them.
<jblack> *that buys
<jsgotangco> well it doesn't happen yet but it might
<jsgotangco> but then
<jsgotangco> most contributors have no idea of revision control systems 
<jblack> Not only that, but if two or three people want to work on the same docs, they can merge each other back and forth and work together without you having to be stuck in the middle.
<jsgotangco> nor our docbook source
<jblack> Thats where the story above fits in.
<jblack> You don't throw something complicated like revision control at a newbie. 
<jsgotangco> we'll need a very good intro for people on how we work
<jblack> You ease them into it. You give them small, gradual steps to take, each one being slightly more complicated, powerful and comprehensive. 
<jsgotangco> in a context that is not those of a control system
<jblack> You can't get rid of the hill that needs to be climbed, but you can definitely stretch it out. 
<jsgotangco> yes
<jblack> Each step of the process needs to make people as powerful as possible, with as little effort as possible. 
<jblack> Thats a key point to retaining people.
<jblack> If its a pain in the ass to figure out how to help, or a pain in the ass to do the help, then they won't help. Its too close to work. 
<jeffsch> i want to see it in action. after breezy release, i will have time to fool around with baz on mpt's docs
<jeffsch> but i am sceptical
<jsgotangco> ive started with mpt's docs but i cant archive to my supermirror so mpt cant merge my changes yet
<jeffsch> if it makes for better docs, I'm all for it
<jblack> Good. I want you to be skeptical. 
<jsgotangco> i find the flow simple
<jeffsch> svn ain't broke :)
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, heh
<jblack> jeffsch: Oh, it's broke in ways you don't want to know about. 
<jeffsch> i suppose if you code 24 hours a day,
<jblack> Thats normal for _every_ piece of software. 
<jeffsch> but you don't even have it installed...
<jeffsch> svn commit
<jeffsch> svn update
<jblack> What I won't do is sit here and pick the nits (like I said, thats every piece of software) 
<jsgotangco> svn hasn't failed us at all to be honest
<jeffsch> and that's pretty much it
<jdub> jeffsch: baz is as easy as that if you want it to be
<jblack> Actually, I did have it installed.
<jeffsch> if you do all the stuff Barry did
<jblack> Actually, I do more than the stuff barry does.
<jdub> jeffsch: keep in mind that jblack is very interested in revision control, while most of us are not
<jdub> jeffsch: however, even for those of us who don't care, baz ends up being a better and more useful tool
<jeffsch> jdub: true. we don't use svn for rev control. it's mostly a place to stick our docs
<jblack> The barry story is just a story of a way it could be. We could tune the story to fit better. 
<jblack> Let me ask you this though... Did you ever have something that was pretty good? You were happy with it, it served your purpose? 
<jsgotangco> well not really good but people are happy and served its purpose
<jeffsch> yep
<jblack> ANd then try something different for awhile, and found out that there's _no_ way you could ever go back? 
<jblack> Distributed revision control is like that.
<jsgotangco> i want to get over my segfault experience first because my experience is half baked
<jblack> burgundavia has an idea of what sorts of things bazaar can do. 
<jblack> Yeah. Thats a problem that needs to be fixed. 
<jblack> I'm aware of it now, and I'm going to make sure something happens about it.
<jblack> Consider this too.... you guys get direct access to the bazaar developers.. at conferences, you can literally poke us in the shoulder, and say "This ain't working for us. We need help getting this resolved".
<jsgotangco> well yes thats really appreciated
<jblack> And we sit there with you, and talk with you, and come up with a solution. We have to, because launchpad/ubuntu/everyone else at conference outnumbers us roughly 15 to one. If we didn't, we'd get creamed. :)
<jsgotangco> need to clarify this
<jsgotangco> i can branch anything i want
<jsgotangco> other people in the docteam can scratch their own itch
<rob^> what are you branching?
<jblack> Correct. 
<jsgotangco> rob^, say gnome docs itself
<jsgotangco> other team members might not have an interest to it at all
<rob^> jsgotangco, as in all our ubuntu/gnome docs?
<jsgotangco> rob^, gnome itself
<rob^> oh
<jsgotangco> i have my own branch of ubuntu-doc and my own branch of gnome doc 
<rob^> what are you going to do with them?
<jblack> rob^: the discussion at hand is the potential of moving ubuntu-doc over to baz.
<rob^> jblack, I thought this was always going to happen eventually
<jblack> jsgotangco: If those trees are related (one was at least indirectly branched off of the other), you can merge them. 
<jsgotangco> but ubuntu-docs dont necessarily go upstream
<jsgotangco> while gnome docs that are patched do
<jblack> If they don't go upstream, then they don't go upstream.
<jsgotangco> im actually sold on the idea
<jblack> However, with imports, we're actively working on getting everything in main into bazaar.
<jblack> We're not there yet (I'd say that about 90% of gnome's official packages are in).... 
<jsgotangco> yes but it is a good value proposition i say
<jblack> But certainly a lot. 
<jblack> Some of those projects will migrate to bazaar quickly. Others won't. 
<jblack> Those that do got a free migration ride. Those that don't... thats ok. The people that use bazaar can still work between each other, and still send patches back, or run dual trees.
<jsgotangco> i believe people are smart enough here for the transition, i just can't say with potential contributors
<rob^> one question: how does having separate branches for everyone benefit the docteam as a whole?
<Burgundavia> for them it won't change that much
<jblack> rob^: Reduced interdependance. 
<jsgotangco> rob^, you don't need a copy of the whole repository to work just branch stuff
<jblack> If you go off into a cave and hack for 2-3 weeks, not only is anybody else stuck (same for svn), but you're not stuck eitehr. You can still keep up to date.
<jblack> not only is nobody else stuck...
<rob^> how does baz merge the two later?
<jblack> I'm not clear on what your'e asking.
<jblack> I can interpret that a bunch of ways. 
<jblack> You go off to a cave, diverge a bit, how do you merge back in? 
<jblack> Or how do you merge mainline back into you? 
<rob^> ie, if I go into a cave and hack for two weeks, how do we then take my doc and that doc and create 1 doc from it for release
<jsgotangco> rob^, the maintainer of the doc merges your changes
<jblack> Ahhh. 
<jblack> You've been committing your work, of course. 
<jblack> You merge mainline (thats an easy, standard operation in bazaar). If there's no problem, you merge into mainline. 
<rob^> who gets to say what makes it and what doesn't?
<jblack> You merge mainline into you (thats an easy, standard operation in bazaar). If there's no problem, you merge your stuff into mainline
<jblack> Anybody that has pqm access. 
<jblack> Third parties would get merged by one of you guys.
<jblack> Importantly, though, they can keep working while you eventually get around to it.
<rob^> is pqm access different for each doc?
<jblack> So you don't have those bitrot problems. 
<jblack> pqm access is typically branchwide. 
<rob^> so, every branch for each doc?
<jblack> What do you say when you mean "each doc".
<jblack> Do you mean a single file, or a set of files for a logically related set of documents? 
<rob^> user guide, faq guide, etc
<rob^> either
<jblack> Well, I'm not expert on your process, but.... 
<rob^> either single file or group of files
<jblack> I'd make a branch for docs unique to ubuntu. That gives you one set of controls for pqm.
<jblack> I'd make another one for kde stuff, another one for gnome stuff...
<rob^> so we as a team decide what makes it and what doesn't (or gnome and kde teams)
<jblack> and a standard boilerplate topdir that only important people have access to. 
<jblack> Yeah.
<jblack> It would be silly if just anybody could commit to just anything. 
<rob^> like now?
<jblack> can I commit to your svn archives? 
<rob^> I think I'll have to see it running to appreciate it fully
<rob^> well, anyone in the team can that has access
<jsgotangco> rob^, in a social sense, it is quite open compared to svn
<jblack> The penultimate point is that archives are owned by a person or a role. 
<jblack> That person is _the_ authority for that archive. 
<jblack> The only way to get stuff in there is for that person to do it. 
<rob^> for the whole archive?
<jblack> In the case of doing multi-committer stuff, there's a tool called PQM, which is a robot that takes instructions from trusted people, and does them.
<jblack> Yeah. My archive is mine. YOu can't write it, unless I give you filesytem access to it. 
<jsgotangco> rob^, not the whole it can be split, like i said, people can scratch their own itch instead of getting the whole thing
<jblack> rob^: jsgotangco has me thinking I'm not understanding your question right. 
<rob^> let me reword it a bit
<jblack> Is your question who can write to what on the filesystme level, or whether or not things can be broken up? 
<rob^> who controls what parts of the repository?
<jblack> each person gets their own repository. 
<rob^> I understand we each can control our own branches
<rob^> in full?
<jblack> On their own machines. 
<jblack> In full. 
<rob^> who controls the master repository?
<jblack> A bot called PQM.
<rob^> who controls him
<jblack> People your team trusts. 
<jblack> They sign emails with gpg signatures, which tells pqm to do things on their behalf.
<rob^> so its in regard to PQM, its kind of like now
<jblack> The PQM portion is rather similiar to what you experience in svn. Yes.
<rob^> ie, everyone on the team can commit, so everyone on the team can control PQM
<jblack> Correct.
<rob^> ah ok
<jblack> You can get pqm to do all sorts of neat things... For example, with bazaar, things work like this: 
<jblack> I branch from the official bazaar archive into my archive. I work and commit, so on and so on. When I'm happy, I send a signed email to pqm (this is done with a script).
<jblack> PQM merges my branch from a machine it can reach (I put a copy of the archive there automatically).
<jblack> If the merge fails, it tells me to fix the conflicts. If it doesn't, then: 
<jblack> it tries to build the code. If it doesn't, it tells me to clean up my screw up. If it does:
<jblack> pqm then runs make test on the code, with the merge. If the test fails, again, it tells me to screw off. If it succeeds, then:
<jblack> pqm then builds a .deb for ... I think its 3 architectures. If any of them fails... 
<jblack> well, you get the picture.
<rob^> right
<jblack> In the bazaar world, the typical branch people bump into is publically readable, publicably unwritable.
<jblack> So you can merge from them. 
<jblack> If you don't want people to have access to a branch, don't make it readable by the public. 
<rob^> so another question: if two of us edit the same section in the same document then try to commit, it will cause a conflict
<rob^> yes?
<jblack> Typically, yes.
<rob^> for one of us
<jblack> Well, that depends where you're talking about.
<jblack> You each have your own archive. You both commit to your own branches. There's no conflict there.
<jblack> Now, if you both independantly commit, then both send commands to pqm to get merged in....
<rob^> so revision numbers dont come into it (main repository I'm talking about)
<jsgotangco> you just ask a merge
<jblack> the first person to merge wins. The second one gets a conflict.
<jblack> pqm tells them this. 
<jblack> So they'll merge the pqm branch, resolve the conflict, commit, and tell pqm to merge them again.
<rob^> so if I go into a cave for two weeks, when I come back it will conflict?
<jblack> Potentially. Nothing can cope with humans changing the same thing in two places. Somebody's got to make the decision.
<rob^> I can see this happening more often then not though..
<jblack> That depends on you guys. How often do you guys edit the same files, in the same places? 
<jsgotangco> different timezones at least
<rob^> ok
<rob^> I'll have to give it more thought I think
<rob^> I'll bbl gotta cook dinner
<jblack> Ok.
<jblack> I'm happy to invest a bit of time walking you guys through actual use. 
<jblack> We'll setup ssh and a shell, you guys come in, and we actually _do_ this stuff. 
<jsgotangco> jblack, all archives are in supermirror?
<jsgotangco> or somewhere else
<jblack> jsgotangco: All of them that I can touch with my grubby little fingers. ;) 
<jblack> I'm sure there's some archives tucked away in places I don't know about, or aren't accessable to me.
<jblack> But most public archives have a copy at the supermirror.
<jsgotangco> i mean ubuntu itself is in supermirror?
<jblack> Oh! 
<jblack> No, at least not yet.
<jblack> That gets into this thing called HCT... 
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> brrrr
* jsgotangco head hurts when i remember HCT
<jblack> But that doesn't affect you guys. 
<jblack> MOTU wants it though, and distro wants it. :) 
<jsgotangco> Keybuk's explanation was good though
<jeffsch> i gotta go sleep. see ya's
<rob^> ok, looks like the wife-y didn't need a hand after all
<rob^> night jeffsch 
<jblack> rob^: As far as why I want you to be skeptical... 
<rob^> yes?
<jblack> Thats because when you are finally convinced, it'll be all the way convinced. You weren't tricked, there weren't hidden problems, and you were happy because you made an informed choice without risk.
<jblack> If you weren't skeptical, then you could jump into things with unreasonable expectations, and end up disapointed. 
<rob^> I'm happy to take a look and give it a go, I'm just not sure how we benifit any more so by changing
<jblack> Skeptics, on the other hand, are rarely disapointed.
<jblack> You don't benefit directly.
<jblack> Sure, there will be good parts here, and maybe a couple not-great parts there, but on the whole slightly nicer.
<jblack> The win, the _huge_ win, is the people that don't have the access that you do. 
<jblack> Thats the really important part, keeping one eye looking from your perspective, and one eye from the perspective of your community.
<jblack> Looking at it from the community perspective is vital. The easier you make it for them, the more of your work they'll do for you. =) 
<jblack> There's always going to be more docs, not less. How would you handle that under svn, other than adding comitters to svn as the docs and userbase grew? (Do you like the idea of 40 people with accounts, potentially able to blow away the docs?)
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> 40 people downloading 200MB isnt acceptable either
<jblack> with pqm, you can scale things out, keeping a core group that is overseeing things, with subgroups responsible for handling subparts of the docs.
<jblack> iow, with baz, we'll be able to scale this out.
<rob^> yeah that makes sense
<rob^> ok, dinner time now..
<jblack> Eat well. 
<jblack> Think about it.
<jblack> If you guys want, I'll give you a walkthrough of bazaar 1.x this weekend, one at a time. 
<rob^> prawn gnocchi
<rob^> yumm
<jblack> Give you a feel for the strong points and weak points. 
<jblack> And we go from there.
<rob^> bbl
<jblack> :) 
<jsgotangco> jblack, do you have a timeline on our migration just in case?
<jblack> No. thats something we discuss and decide together. 
<jblack> Short of somebody dictating something.. Thats not my style though. I trust that you guys are the experts on when this idea fits into the timeline, if appropriate
<jsgotangco> alright too bad we werent able to discuss this in sydney, maybe in montreal
<jsgotangco> corey will be there for sure
* Burgundavia is not counting his chickens just yet...
<jsgotangco> right Canada is a big country
<jblack> If you exclude the cities right next to the US, most of it is trees. :) 
<Burgundavia> and snow and rock
* Burgundavia has to crash
<Burgundavia> night all
<jsgotangco> night
<jsgotangco> rob^, ?
<rob^> hey
<rob^> whats up?
<rob^> I think I screwed up my ubuntu installation messing around with xfce and kde
<rob^> I managed to get my widgets back to normal, but the font still sucks
<jsgotangco> your client keeps on quitting
<jsgotangco> ahh
<rob^> yeah, thats me getting pissed and ctrl-alt-backspacing
<Gary> hello
<Gary> Why ubuntu?
<froud> Some fun b4 friday http://justwars.com/linux/ubuntu/
<froud> Seems I is not alone is questioning why the need for belonging and having ubuntu mail addresses :-)
* froud goes off to pay homage to to Ubuntu
<jjesse> interesting link froud
<robitaille> jjesse:  old story.  I remember most of these emails from back then on the list.  That one particular individual was pretty abbrasive (and not just for that particular thread), and I don't think we have seen him since shortly after these emails
<robitaille> seen on the ubuntu lists that is
<jjesse> ah
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-31
<HrdwrBoB> my kitten <3 technical documentation
<HrdwrBoB> I'm writing some doco for work and she's jumping at the screen :)
<jsgotangco> mdke, gimme till 14UTC i am in a school with a friend testing in a lab
<jsgotangco> im also doing some notes for a talk next week
<mdke> jsgotangco, sure i'll give you as long as you like! It's you doing me a favour don't forget...
<rob^> crud, the meeting is in 6 hours..
<jsgotangco> rob^, you asked friday :P
<rob^> yep I know
<rob^> the wife and I made plans..
<rob^> curd
<jsgotangco> man today's build is solid...
<rob^> man my fonts are fudged up
<mdke> ok i'm going to miss the meeting I think
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> nice hostmask
<rob^> :)
<rob^> thanks
<jsgotangco> ahh serpentine came back
<rob^> looks like I have a reinstallation to do
<jsgotangco> rob^, just get the 0826 build so you wont have to get another OOo2 update
<rob^> is that todays cd build?
<jsgotangco> yep
<rob^> :0
<rob^> :)
<rob^> grr
<jsgotangco> 0825 won't install xresprobe
<jsgotangco> it seems our CD is filled up
<rob^> this will learn me for playing with kubuntu-desktop on the same machine as ubuntu
<rob^> I still have a colony 3 cd here somewhere
<jsgotangco> just rsync the iso if you still have it
<rob^> oh
<rob^> I didn't know you could do it
<rob^> where can I get the daily build cd
<rob^> ive lost the link
<jsgotangco> rsync -cvP cdimage.ubuntu.com::cdimage/daily/current/breezy-install-i386.iso breezy-install-i386.iso
<rob^> nice.. thanks
<rob^> hmm it looks like it is downloading the whole thing
<jsgotangco> err did you have your old iso?
<rob^> yes
<jsgotangco> well it is actually downloading the changes if its colony 3
<rob^>      9108384   1%   52.38kB/s    3:21:01
<jsgotangco> i'm now at 53%
<rob^> I guess there is probably a fair few changes
<jsgotangco> there was an x, dbus, ooo, etc. changes since colony
<rob^> grr looks like I'm not going to make the meeting tonight
<jsgotangco> but there's now a gtk bug on notification
<rob^>  Technical details on using the FAQGuide for the frontpage
<rob^> do I need to be there for this?
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> I guess theres always the mailing list
<jsgotangco> just email away, no worries if you're not coming
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> I'll check the logs
<jsgotangco> enjoy the wife
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> i mean the night
<rob^> :)
<rob^> hehe
<BeerDump> mdke, you there?
<fl> hello, good day :-)
<fl> please have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FlorenzKley
<fl> "installing Java on Breezy"
<fl> it's unpolished, and basically only putting togther what others documented elsewehere, but I could not yet find something like this fro breezy
* jsgotangco checks
<jsgotangco> we'll have blackbox java in breezy on multiverse
<ajmitch> it currently is, I believe
<fl> hmm.
<fl> ok. stupid me. had only the universe enabled.
<fl> fl@scrap:~$ apt-cache search j2re sun
<fl> sun-j2re1.5 - Java(TM) 2 RE, Standard Edition, Sun Microsystems(TM)
<fl> it's there, alright.
<jsgotangco> fl, you can do your entry on a different page instead of your homepage
<jjesse> did i miss the docteam meeting?
<jsgotangco> it hasnt even started
<jsgotangco> hopefully people come
<jsgotangco> (in 15 mins)
<jsgotangco> hey if any docteam are online, we'll be having our meeting in a few minutes
<jsgotangco> if there's no one we'll resched grrrrr
<jjesse> i'm on :)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you made it on to planet!
<jsgotangco> whoa
<jsgotangco> lol blogspot got aggreagated
<jsgotangco> night all
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-01
* rob^ pokes head in
<Madpilot> anyone actually here?
<jblack> I'm here
<rob^> yep
<rob^> oops..
<skora> I got a mail bounced back from ubuntu-docs@lists.ubuntu.com
<skora> is that the correct address for the mailing lits ?
<rob^> no
<rob^> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<rob^> grr
<rob^> I forgot to back up my dam gpg key
<rob^> bugger
<skora> k
<skora> thanks.
<Madpilot> hi klepas
<klepas> moin moin
<nalioth> moin moin is the spawn of satan
<klepas> it's north german
<Madpilot> north german for "irritating wiki engine"?
<nalioth> hoch deutch?
<klepas> Ja, kan man sagen
<nalioth> ich spreche ein bischen deutch
<klepas> nett
<klepas> ich bin Deutscher, aber lebe in Australien :-)
<nalioth> klepas: sehr gut!
<klepas> aber mein deutsch is mist - ich habbe viel dafon verlorren
<klepas> So I prefer english
<rob^> hoch wtf?
<klepas> High German
<rob^> ah
<klepas> dialect
* Madpilot knows enough German to politely order beer and ask directions to the train station... no more than that!
<klepas> lol
<klepas> I suck at writing and reading, but speaking it is alright
<klepas> I only attended half of grade 1 in germany
<klepas> then we moved to Australia
<nalioth> if i go back, within 2 months, i'll be back to my former fluency
<Madpilot> that's a half year more of formal german instruction that I've ever had...
<klepas> lol
<klepas> But we converse in German at home
<klepas> to keep it up
<klepas> :-)
<Madpilot> I learned mine from Lonely Planet books and in hostel bars... :)
<klepas> :-)
<Madpilot> which is pretty much how I've learned all the little bits of languages I speak, aside from English & French
<nalioth> well i just peeked in to make sure you guys are behaving
<nalioth> y'all be good
<rob^> hmm
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> now that he's gone we can roll out the party hats
<klepas> :-)
<rob^> ^party hats^
<rob^> mmm OOo2
<Madpilot> apt-get beer
<rob^> apt-cache search beer
<klepas> mmh
<rob^> xxxx - six pack
<rob^> :)
<klepas> no apt normally on suse
<rob^> aptitude dist-upgrade beer
<rob^> The following packages will be installed:
<klepas> but that's apt4rpm is for :-)
<rob^> 1-keg
<rob^> Press Y to continue
<rob^> YYY omg Y
<rob^> suse is rpm based
<rob^> but yeah
<klepas> suse is what I most commonly use
<klepas> but I dual boot with ubuntu
<klepas> because both are awesome
<rob^> ah
<rob^> yeah, suse is quite good, we have a bloke at my LUG trying to convert us
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> most of the folks at our LUG are debian hackers
<klepas> developers actually
<rob^> one of our people created GTweakUI
<klepas> we've got Andrew Tridge - who created Samba, about 8 debian developers, a KDE dev, and a kernel developer
<klepas> sweet
<klepas> it's hard for me to compete with these folks at my lug :D
<rob^> then again, we are in townsville
<rob^> yeah
<klepas> cool
<rob^> where are you at?
<klepas> down here in Canberra
<rob^> ah
<klepas> hey, would I be able to send you my public key, or whatever I'm supposed to use to verify that I am actually Pascal Klen :-)
<rob^> I think elmo takes care of that for the docteam svn repo anyway
<klepas> huh
<rob^> which reminds me, I just had to do a reinstall because I broke something, and forgot to back up my gpg key..
<rob^> crap
<klepas> that
<klepas> must
<klepas> be bad
<rob^> yeah, well it means I dont have my access until elmo updates my logon
<klepas> elmo?
<rob^> yeah, the dude who takes care of it
<klepas> okay
<klepas> catch you later
<klepas> :-)
<jsgotangco> hey rob^
<rob^> hey
<rob^> I need to update my gpg key in svn
<jsgotangco> hmm you lost your old key?
<rob^> yeah, I broke some stuff and did a reinstall
<rob^> and forgot to back it up
<jsgotangco> ouch
<jsgotangco> but you don't need your gpg key to commit to svn as long as you still have your account
<rob^> yep
<rob^> I'll give it a shot
<rob^> I thought it used them?
<jsgotangco> elmo only uses them to send the l/p
<rob^> ah
<jsgotangco> but once your key is signed, you should back it up next time
<rob^> yeah it wasn't anyway
<jsgotangco> even so, a flash key isn't that expensive to back it up :)
<jsgotangco> when we move to baz we'll need ssh keys as wel
<jblack> Hey guys. 
<jsgotangco> hey james
<rob^> why the heck does nano pop up when I run svn commit?
<jsgotangco> no idea i use a gui interface for svn
<jblack> probably $EDITOR or $VISUAL
<rob^> I'm doing: svn commit applications.xml
<rob^> ah screw it
<rob^> I'm going to bed
<rob^> night 
<jsgotangco> night
<jsgotangco> jblack: hey whats up
<jblack> Not much. Have a sleep-deprivation headache.
<jsgotangco> heh do you still watch PPV boxing?
<jblack> Saw my gallery, eh? 
<jblack> Haven't watched a fight in a while. 
<jsgotangco> hopefully pacquaio morales get a rematch
<jblack> Heh. After the way pacquiaio got whupped, I don't imagine that.
<jblack> He was taught respect for his elders.
<jsgotangco> lol but pacman is still pretty much in the scene unless barerra fights him again
<jblack> Heh.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-02
<Burgundavia> rob^, join the club, I did the same thing with my old gpg key
<rob^> heh
<nickrud> anyone working tonight?
<Madpilot> working? not really, just passing through
<nickrud> hi Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi nickrud
<nickrud> I've actually begun to have some free time recently, so I've been rebuilding some of my old docs on the wiki
<nickrud> The thing is, I'm also not sure just where the least effort will get the most results :)
<Madpilot> You can always visit CategoryCleanup to see the pages most in need of help
<nickrud> That's why I picked the voodoo thing as my learning page, it was in that list. It's a long one.
<Madpilot> the whole laptop thing is going berzerk - most of the stuff in RecentChanges is laptops... cool
<nickrud> don't have one of those.
<Madpilot> I've sort of "adopted" the Apache pages, and BasicCommands
<Madpilot> no, just a desktop here too
<nickrud> I used BasicCommands for cleaning up the aptitude page. I'm also wondering about the style guide.
<nickrud> and, of course, doc book. Is there a good book on that?
<nickrud> paper.
<Madpilot> no idea, I've barely skimmed the style guide myself, and never touched docbook
<nickrud> One thing I've picked up while dabbling in debian is, patches are welcome, and just fixes might get done
<nickrud> It's a reasonable attitude.
<Madpilot> O'Reilly publish a "definitive guide to Doc Book", $36 USD though
<Madpilot> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/docbook/index.html
<nickrud> let's see, $26 in '00, and $36 in '05: cheap docs
<Madpilot> OReilly isn't cheap, but they're damn good. My (few) O'Reilly books are always in use...
<nickrud> One, on bash. It's travelled a lot :)
<Madpilot> my O'Reilly CSS book is my web design bible...
<nickrud> That's what you do?
<Madpilot> not professionally
<Madpilot> semi-pro
<Madpilot> I maintain a couple of relative's websites, and a bunch of my own
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/
<nickrud> I know that place, I was there a while back. I got paid for fun.
<Madpilot> yeah, I get paid to experiment with HTML/CSS. nice extra money
<nickrud> back then, it was forth, believe it or don't.
<Madpilot> cool. 
<Madpilot> maintaining my stepmother's small-business site is more like work, though. I didn't build it, and the code is really, really bad
<Madpilot> 20+ nested tables per page, so any small change takes forever... :(
<Madpilot> what were you programming in forth?
* nickrud kicks dan, who uses some winki-dink windows web page creator, which cannot accept clean html
<Madpilot> hey, it's Frontpage, or whatever awful Whizzy editor was used on my stepmom's store site! <gag, retch, spit>
<nickrud> www.usmisson.org. look at that.
* nickrud waits with resignation.
<Madpilot> typo in that URL? get "no such server" here
<nickrud> as usual
<nickrud> www.usmission.org
<Madpilot> wow, what a classic piece of 1997-98 web design! (sorry, but it's true!)
<nickrud> yup
<nickrud> you pinned it pretty well, i think.
<Madpilot> the construction of the maps is sort of cool - absolutely-positioned divs to get the blinking gifs where they're needed
<Madpilot> but those blinking gifs... are blinkin' awful...
<nickrud> lol
<Madpilot> ;)
<nickrud> I *always* apologize when I point people at that.
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> actually, as a method of constructing that sort of "imagemap" type thing, the absolutely positioned divs are a good idea
<Madpilot> it just need a graphics cleanup, badly...
<nickrud> yeah, it hasn't changed for a long time.
<Madpilot> lots of websites around like that
<Madpilot> great burst of enthusiasm at the start, then it gathers virtual dust
<nickrud> It's work, I'll grant you that.
<Madpilot> especially making graphics changes
<nickrud> Getting that last thing right.
<Madpilot> graphics are way, way more work than code
<nickrud> if you mean creation, it's generally more than work, I think
<nickrud> I use free graphics, me.
<Madpilot> home graphics is 1/3rd artistry, 1/3 knowing your program (the GIMP or PS), and 1/3rd code work
<nickrud> ok, it's 2/3's work :)
<Madpilot> and 3x harder than just coding!
<mpt> arrrrrhhhh
* mpt runs into a Java applet on usmission.org
<nickrud> which one?
<mpt> http://www.usmission.org/KansasCity.html
<Madpilot> one oddity on that mission site is the mix of divs and tables - with no need for tables at all...
<mpt> awww, it does a fancy fade effect
<mpt> how cute
<Madpilot> a fancy fade effect with really, really blurry graphics
<nickrud> excuse me, I have to go load java. be back.
<Madpilot> and then a huge chunk of text that's actually an image - that's not cool either...
<mpt> heh
<mpt> Anyone remember Corel Office for Java?
<Madpilot> Corel what for where? ;)
<mpt> It took about 10~15 minutes to start up
<Madpilot> full Java apps can do that on slow machines...
<rob^> yep
<Madpilot> we use a Java app at work - staff-side at the library - that is glacial to start, even on the new machines we've got
<Madpilot> it's painful...
<Madpilot> need food and drink - bbl
<nickrud> I hope no one thinks I had anything to do with that site ;P
<Madpilot> not your design work, then? ;)
<nickrud> I couldn't even get the simple pages I wanted loaded onto the site, so no.
<Madpilot> ah well
<Madpilot> I finally talked my stepmother into letting me rebuild her business site this fall, so it'll be cleaner & faster, both to load and to update
<nickrud> me, I talked the board into rebuilding my foundation. Now people won't trip. 
<rob^> bbs
<nickrud> One more time increment freed :)
<nickrud> so, I guess I'll look around the cleanup category, and see what I see.
<rob^> grr@wget segfaulting
<klepas> !info gaim
<klepas> wait
<klepas> this is not the cli is it... :-P
<Madpilot> ubotu doesn't hang out here, try the main channel!
<jsgotangco>  /j
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-03
<Madpilot> anyone here? how do I change the email address my Ubuntu wiki/doc-list stuff comes to?
<Madpilot> anyone able to tell me how to change my email address for the -docs list?
<mpt> Madpilot: Look at the List-Info header for any mailing list message you receive
<Madpilot> mpt: thanks
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> hello Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> hmm im beginning to like OOo 2
<jsgotangco> hmm i didnt know there was a kubuntu shop
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  to continue on a discussion from the other night, here is the blog entry from joey hess about Ubuntu I mentioned: http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/ubuntu_braindump-2004-10-21-00-43.html
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  happy birthday! 
<jsgotangco> robitaille, thanks
<Burgundavia> robitaille, thanks for the info
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, Madpilot, myself and robitaille got together the other night at Madpilot's place
<Burgundavia> is the wiki down for anyone else?
<Madpilot> yeah, the first Victoria Ubuntu meet - it was good to meet robitaille & spread cat5 all over my living room (no wireless here...)
<jsgotangco> oohh so you finally had your first loco meeting
<Madpilot> the wiki works fine here, Burgundavia
<jsgotangco> our first loco meeting didnt have any computers at all (just beer)
<Madpilot> we had computers but no beer (I was out...)
<Madpilot> ;)
<jsgotangco> robitaille, i've read this before somewhere..hmmm
<jsgotangco> is it a good idea to show the latest breezy crack in a linuxworld talk?
<Burgundavia> ok, now it works
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, absolutely
<robitaille> Madpilot:  ah...that's why I had to beg for water a couple of hours in the meeting :)
<robitaille> a Victoria loco team has a nice ring to it :)  
<Madpilot> robitaille: heh. sorry about that - I was getting pretty dry from all the talking myself by the time you all left
* Madpilot makes note: buy beer & juice before next Victoria loco meeting here
* robitaille will have to bring something as well.
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what's our showstopper features? Gnome 2.12, OOo 2, KDE 3.x, LTSP, anything more?
<Burgundavia> QuickTourDraft?
<jsgotangco> right
<robitaille> Evince!
<jsgotangco> well i can't fit all those in one slide
<jsgotangco> robitaille, Evince is part of 2.12
<Madpilot> laptop support?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, right
<jsgotangco> (with emphasis on rigorous testing)
<Burgundavia> I got the basic html/css stuff going last night
<Burgundavia> be porting the contents tonight and then into SVN RSN
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: want to send me the HTML/CSS for a look & polishing?
<Burgundavia> is one my laptop
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<jsgotangco> does anyone know what version of KDE we are shipping
<Burgundavia> 3.4.2
<jsgotangco> gotcha confirmed
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: if you're going to send me the HTML/CSS, pls send to my gmail addy (or have you already?)
<Burgundavia> not yet
<Burgundavia> I will go offline for a short while
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuEyeCandy
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> maybe swap the order, so that adding it before how to make it?
<Madpilot> good point
<mpt> Anyone here know if NetworkManager is going to make Breezy?
<mpt> I'm trying to write instructions on how to connect with WPA in NetworkManager-less system, and it's horrid
<robitaille> is there an easy way to lock a wiki page.  People keep adding themselves to the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/Requests
<Madpilot> robitaille: maybe you should add a big piece of text at the top AND bottom of the page saying it's closed?
<robitaille> Madpilot:  yeah...that's what I was thinking.  I'll make it obvious, and point them to the correct testing page.
<jsgotangco> mpt, im afraid it was deferred since NM is still quite immature
<mpt> woo. hoo.
<mpt> ok
<jsgotangco> mpt, i believe my baz experience is caused by an old version hence i upgraded
<mpt> ah
<mpt> Maybe you got the version in main because of my initial incorrect instructions
<mpt> rather than the version on bazaar.canonical.com
<jsgotangco> yes so basically 1.5 should address it (although i haven't tested yet)
<mpt> robitaille: For goodness sake, the page still says "we'll be sending some machines to community members". Before adding big text to the top and bottom, why not just fix the out-of-date info? :-)
<mpt> not to mention complaining that people are adding themselves to the bottom of a table where the page says "please add yourself to the table below"
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GnomeFoot -> are we doing this in Breezy?
<Madpilot> I"ve already done it to my Hoary install, just for fun
<jsgotangco> i believe mpt griped about it after hoary got released
<Madpilot> actually, I should edit GnomeFoot, because the Ubuntu forums have an easier way of doing it...
<robitaille> mpt:  first line in bold characters: "This pages is left for the archive. At the current time, no new people will be accepted"
<robitaille> personally I would be tempted to simply delete it...
<jsgotangco> err where is the temp cache of firefox?
<mpt> robitaille: Even so, no point in having it self-contradictory
<mpt> but I've fixed the page now
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  ~/.mozilla/firefox/[something random] /Cache
<mpt> robitaille: Is there a separate page listing the people who actually got the laptops? (As opposed to the entire laptop testing team?)
<Madpilot> mpt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
<mpt> ah, so the page can be nuked then
<mpt> I second your proposal robitaille
<mpt> Do we have a thirder?
<Burgundavia> mpt, Nm will not make Breezy
<Burgundavia> mpt, code is not mature enough. Expect it for +1
<Madpilot> mpt: you mean nuke the whole /Requests page?
<mpt> Madpilot: yes
<mpt> Burgundavia: Do you concur?
<mpt> </catchmeifyoucan>
<robitaille> Madpilot: yes.  It is there only for historical purposes.  People keep adding themselves even with the warnings.  And anyway we now have to add big bold links to the LaptopTestingTeam page
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, mpt nuke the existing content and leave it as "Requests are closed"
<mpt> 'tis done.
<Burgundavia> http://verbosio.mozdev.org/
<mpt> Darn, I thought you were pointing to some cool plug-in for helping writers pare down their words
<Burgundavia> grr
<Burgundavia> xchat doesn't handle the network going away very well
<Madpilot> what are you doing? swapping one plug back and forth between desktop & laptop?
<HrdwrBoB> hey
<HrdwrBoB> some people can't afford network cables
<Madpilot> routers are a good thing, too (but not very cheap, and they've stayed expensive while other stuff gets cheaper...)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I have lots of cable
<Burgundavia> should string it now
<Madpilot> man - cheapest 10/100 router I can see at either of my usual online comp stores is ~$50 Cdn
<Madpilot> which is exactly what I paid for mine two-three years ago... ick
<mpt> ok, silly question
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you can get cheaper. 24 for a wired one
<mpt> Where should my GPG fingerprint and public key live?
* mpt is copying it over from his Mac
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> .gpg?
<Burgundavia> .gnupg
<mpt> what's the exact filename? :-)
* mpt suspects MacGPG might use different names
<rob^> .gnupg
<Burgundavia> secring.gpg?
<rob^> look at the files under there
<mpt> yes, I've already got that far
<rob^> cant you just import the key?
<mpt> I guess so
<Burgundavia> mpt, seahorse is a nice gui program to handle keys
<mpt> why didn't I think of that
<mpt> thanks rob^ and Burgundavia
<rob^> http://webber.dewinter.com/gnupg_howto/english/GPGMiniHowto.html#toc8
<rob^> thats a good howto
<rob^> umm elmo takes care of svn access doesn't he?
<Burgundavia> indeed
<rob^> I need a new password
<Burgundavia> ping him
* rob^ had to format his machince and forgot to back up his gpg key
<rob^> hes not here
* Burgundavia also did that
<Burgundavia> he is in -devel
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> I just noticed
<mpt> ffs
* mpt just clicked one of those little brown squares at the botttom right, and thought everything had crashed...
<Madpilot> mpt: you mean the virtual desktop switcher? :)
<mpt> yes
<rob^> heh
<Burgundavia> mpt, I used to think that the virtual desktop thingy was bad for new users, but then I saw the feedback we got when it was suggest we remove it
<Burgundavia> mpt, now I think I need more empirical evidence
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: in other words, you need to see how Andrea reacts to it?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ya
<Madpilot> badly, I'm thinking
<Burgundavia> and more
<Burgundavia> I don't know that
<mpt> Burgundavia: I;m very used to that kind of feedback
<Burgundavia> the thread that was started about it suggested that virtual desktops were easier to understand than main task bars
<Burgundavia> mpt, regardless, I would like to see more useful feedback
<mpt> I guess the Firefox maintainers are too
<Burgundavia> other than people saying "it is not useful"
<Burgundavia> mpt, tabbed browsing?
<mpt> no, things like everything people want to add to the context menus
<Burgundavia> the context menus in FF are total crack
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> they should have just followed my spec :-)
<mpt> but, they're not as bad as those in the Mozilla suite were.
<Burgundavia> 12 items by default?
<mpt> the Firefox devs have had a lot of practice at saying "no"
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mpt> as can be seen in their original manifesto
<mpt> And I would disagree with people saying virtual desktops are "not useful"
<mpt> I'm sure they are useful, for some people
<mpt> but not for the sort of people who don't have the skill and courage to configure stuff like that
<mpt> therefore they should be something you turn on, not something you turn off
<Burgundavia> one major flaw with the desktop switcher is that it doesn
<Madpilot> in Breezy are they on or off by default?
<Burgundavia> t show you what application is focused on that desktop
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, on
<mpt> on
<Burgundavia> likely one of the major discussions at Montreal
<mpt> Was anything like that discussed at Sydney?
<Burgundavia> no idea, ask jerome
<mpt> The Ubuntu default panel setup could do with a fair bit of improvement
<Burgundavia> we don't change much from default
<Burgundavia> s/default/upstream default
* mpt imports his own GPG key
<mpt> hmm, gpg doesn't trust it
<mpt> that could be a problem
<rob^> check out that howto
* Madpilot wonders why Opera doesn't make bug reports searchable...
<rob^> hey, I just sent a patch for the faq guide to the list due to not having commit access until elmo resets my password, can someone apply it for me
<Burgundavia> rob^, quite coincidentally, I was just thinking about documenting gstreamer-plugins-multiveres
<rob^> yeah, I was doing some asking around
<rob^> I asked about gstreamer0.8-lame not being there
<rob^> 2 days later it was
<rob^> grr I'm having some real issues with cdrecord
<rob^> blanking cdrw's isn't working
<jsgotangco> hey all
<rob^> hey
<jsgotangco> rob^: so you did loose your account
<rob^> no
<rob^> just didn't write down my password and had to do a reinstall
<mdke> uhoh
<mdke> still got your key?
<rob^> nup
<rob^> lost that too
* rob^ slaps head
<rob^> I was playing with my fonts and broke something
<mdke> oh no
<rob^> it was late.. I wasn't thinking.
<mdke> always backup your key
<mdke> have you got a revocation cert.
<rob^> maybe..
<rob^> I did make one
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> well for now we are happy to apply your patches
<mdke> its no problem
<rob^> hmm I must have nuked that too
<mdke> i'll bbl
<mdke> sorry I haven't done any reviewing of the faqguide yet
<rob^> thats ok
<mdke> i'm moving house so it's gonna be a bit tricky right now
<jsgotangco> hey mdke
<jsgotangco> im quite busy myself
<mdke> jsgotangco, hi, i'm just on my way off
<jsgotangco> i have yet to finish my slides
* jsgotangco crams
<rob^> any one have any idea how to flip upside down and inverse a video?
<rob^> we recorded an install using vmware, but it turned out weard
<jsgotangco> i'll review your docs later
<rob^> cool
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i see you have made an Ubuntu presentation before
<rob^> yep
* jsgotangco steals rob^'s slides
<rob^> :)
<jsgotangco> i need it for LinuxWorld
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob^> cool go right ahead
<klepas> moin moin
<rob^> .
<Madpilot> ?
<rob^> "
<Madpilot> |
<rob^> !
<rob^> yay lets chew logs
<klepas> hey guys
<rob^> hi
<Madpilot> someone from the UK just created this quite, quite clueless page on getting to the Montreal confrence: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/TravelHints
<rob^> heh
<Madpilot> there isn't any point in flying to Halifax if you're going to Montreal, it's still another 2+ hrs by air Halifax->Montreal...
<Madpilot> I'm not sure how impolite I should be in pointing this out...
<rob^> just add it to the page....
<Madpilot> am doing that - trying to get Air Canada's useless website to work with Opera to get actual travel times...
<klepas> do any of you folks know what happened to the art team as of late?
<klepas> anyone home?
<Madpilot> hi
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:irc.freenode.net] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<mpt> Burgundavia, NetworkManager wiki page seems to need updating :-)
<Burgundavia> mpt, not surprised
<Burgundavia> mpt, g-a-i is not a userfacing name
<Burgundavia> mpt, and g-a-i is most there for SoftwareManager
<mpt> "most there"?
<Burgundavia> mostly there
<Burgundavia> it needs some work with UI and some corner cases (multimedia codecs, etc.)
<mpt> If there still needs to be two other graphical programs doing intersecting jobs, I'd disagree with that "mostly" :-)
<Burgundavia> you think g-a-i should also do updating?
<Burgundavia> that is not hard, just have a button inside it call the update manager
<mpt> No, I think what I wrote in the spec
<mpt> That doesn't solve the problem, it's still multiple interfaces
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mpt> This isn't like, say, Gimp, which can perform hugely complicated tasks, so you might reasonably ship a simple paint program as well (but notice that Ubuntu doesn't)
<mpt> even installing and uninstalling packages is a pretty trivial task
<Burgundavia> there is no simply paint program for linux
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences?action=diff
<Burgundavia> is that stuff in our svn?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-04
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, 
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, hey, at the libary, I just sent you the quicktour, in the beginning html form
<Burglaptop> I will get it into SVN tomorrow (having no access to said here)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: back from dinner, looking at your HTML Quicktour stuff now
<jsgotangco> hi all
<Madpilot> hi
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, having fun? :)
<jsgotangco> mdke, were you able to get the files jeffsch did?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia & I have been trashing out the HTML/CSS version of his Quick Tour - it looks good
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, any link?
<Madpilot> and if you've seen the email I sent the doc list, it looks similar to the file I attached there
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: I'll put it up on my webspace in a bit
<jsgotangco> okay
* jsgotangco saw it but didnt actually see the attachment
* jsgotangco checks
<jsgotangco> embedded css?
<Madpilot> more portable that way
<Madpilot> I prefer seperate stylesheets too, but... <shrug>
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, about the StyleGuide, you can always contribute
<Madpilot> I probably will
<Madpilot> I was sort of surprised to not see a "common look and feel" section of the StyleGuide
<jsgotangco> well its basically a writing guide, not a formatting guide
<jsgotangco> but if you see the gnome documentation handbook, it even has details on look and feel, basic docbook tags, etc.
<Madpilot> I saw the link to the gnome stuff, I'll have to follow up on that
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/quicktour2.html  <-- current HTML version of QuickTour
<jsgotangco> oohh
<Madpilot> pretty colours
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> jdub, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/quicktour2.html
<Madpilot> the big image at the very top will (eventually) be the full Ubuntu logo
<jsgotangco> (no pics yet though)
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, you don't really have to put Breezy Badger :)
<Madpilot> it was originally all blue/black - like the wiki version - but I swapped it over to Ubuntu's actual palette
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: Burgundavia has written most of the actual text at this point
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jdub> jsgotangco: thanks, will read and comment later
<jsgotangco> k
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, have you seen luis' take on Gnome 2.12 stuff
<Madpilot> no - got a link?
<jsgotangco> http://tieguy.org/misc/212releasenotes/index.html
<jsgotangco> it's great
<jsgotangco> its still WIP at the moment
<jsgotangco> http://tieguy.org/misc/212releasenotes/rnusers.html is about benefits
<jsgotangco> no make that features
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> its pretty broad though, not just for end-users
<Madpilot> 2.12 is going to be in Breezy, right?
<jsgotangco> if you're in Breezy, you're running it (2.11.9.xxx)
<jsgotangco> should be 2.12 in a few weeks
<Madpilot> still using Hoary here - I'm conservative when it comes to my OS & core apps!
<jsgotangco> its ok my workstation still runs hoary
<Madpilot> I've only got one computer...
<ajmitch> I guess you won't be running grumpy in the future :)
<Madpilot> the Gnome stuff is pretty cool - the Quick Tour is just a lighter version of that
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> Grumpy is going to be the rolling unstable release, right? Not my thing
<jsgotangco> i gotta burn this daily build
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, did you get your precious yet?
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: no..
<jsgotangco> yahhh
<jsgotangco> mdke, looks rad
<jsgotangco> brb
<Madpilot> later, all
<Madpilot> sleep
<klepas> moin moin
<jjesse> morning
<jbailey> Hullo!  mdz asked if I would help get the documentation bits that are already done into Breezy - is this the right place to come chat about it? =)
<jjesse> yes it is, but it looks like most everyone is afk
<jbailey> That's fine, I'm patient. =)
<jbailey> Do you know what timezone they usually all operate in?
<jjesse> all over the world actually, mostly when i'm asleep or gone i'm in EDT
<jbailey> As am I. =)
<leyman> hey
<Madpilot> hi
<Madpilot> just passing thru - on my way to work in a bit...
<leyman> are the "Previews" on http://ubuntu-doc.ath.cx/ actively updated or just plain out of date?
<Madpilot> I think those are new and under construction
<Madpilot> the whole site is anyway, not sure about idividual pages
<leyman> i just browsed by this http://ubuntu-doc.ath.cx/gnome/faqi386/C/ch04.html#id3247557 and i think that udev-rule is accually in udev.rules by default...
<leyman> ..so i thought i might just tell someone ;)
<Madpilot> I'm on my way out, but hang out for a bit, somebody might be able to help
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: ping
<leyman> Madpilot, ok, thanks
<Madpilot> later - need to go catch a bus - in the rain - wonder if I could get away with calling in dead? ;)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, pong
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia, just on my way out the door - leyman had some doc questions you might be able to help him with, though. Talk to you later.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ok
<Burgundavia> leyman, if you prepare a patch, send it to the -doc list and it will get committed
<leyman> Burgundavia, allrighty
<Burgundavia> leyman, thanks for the help
<jjesse> outof date
<jjesse> the files for kubuntu are out of date
<jjesse> sorry was gone
<judax> greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-28
<Burgundavia> crimsun: never mind. I was asking about UWN proofing, but it has already gone out
<crimsun> Burgundavia: ok
<Burgundavia> maybe next time
<theCore> LaserJock: ping
<LaserJock> theCore: hi
<theCore> LaserJock: how the Packaging Guide is going?
<LaserJock> well, I haven't really worked on it for a while
<LaserJock> I plan on getting back on it shortly
<LaserJock> trying to work on Feature Freeze and Universe Freeze stuff
<theCore> LaserJock: I plan to do that too
<theCore> oh, when the Freezes are? I was searching for dates
<theCore> LaserJock: it is a good idea to wait for the freezes, btw
<Burgundavia> wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseSchedule
<theCore> Burgundavia: thanks
<theCore> ``Schedule as iCal'', I personally find this ironic...
<LaserJock> why?
<theCore> iCal is for OS X, isn't it?
<LaserJock> well, but the iCal format can be read by many apps
<LaserJock> and yeah, I use iCal in OS X so that's nice too ;-)
<theCore> really? I didn't knew that 
<theCore> hehe
<theCore> personally, I lost all the interest I had for OS X, for Ubuntu
<trappist> I still think OS X is sexy
<trappist> I get a little jealous when I see the mac guys dragging their windows around so smoothly.  hopefully that'll stop when xgl/aiglx stabilizes.
<theCore> trappist: good GUI is nice, but it worth nothing if you're in closed system
<trappist> yeah that is a bummer
<theCore> but I don't want to pullute -doc with that...
<LaserJock> there is a lot of open source stuff for/on OS X
<LaserJock> it could certainly be better
<LaserJock> but it could also be worse
<theCore> LaserJock: and what about the file formats of their apps?
<LaserJock> depends on the app
<theCore> it's not what I heard, lately ...
<LaserJock> huh?
<LaserJock> there are many OS X apps that are opensource
<LaserJock> and Apple even open sources some stuff
<LaserJock> I think Apple is much closer than MS
<Burgundavia> and many that are not
<theCore> I meant from Apple
<LaserJock> I'm decently optimistic for Apple although I haven't been around it much
<LaserJock> although it is nowhere close to  most Linux distros in that regard
<theCore> LaserJock: http://peadrop.com/mac2ubuntu.html, this might give you an overall idea of the situation I see now
<LaserJock> theCore: some good reading
<theCore> LaserJock: indeed
<LaserJock> however, I get to keep OS X so I'm trying to make the best of the situation, finding lots of open source software etc.
<LaserJock> so besides OS X itself, I pretty much us all open source software on it
<LaserJock> which is much more than I can say for Windows
<theCore> LaserJock: for you it isn't a problem, because you didn't had to pay the Apple tax 
<LaserJock> sure
<theCore> LaserJock: and you can fill Windows with open-source apps
<LaserJock> I don't find much open source for Windows
<LaserJock> but maybe I'm not looking hard enough
<LaserJock> anyway
<LaserJock> way OT and I can't really get rid of OS X anyway so no sense in me grumbling about it
<theCore> like I said before, I don't want to pollute -doc with this, it isn't useful at all
<LaserJock> :-)
<theCore> I better spend my time improving open-source apps, rather than waste everyone else by trashing other peoples apps
<theCore> else time*
<theCore> brb
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:irc.freenode.net] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format: http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<Burgundavia> no worries
<theCore> the funny thing is I was browsing netsplit.com when it happenned :/
<theCore> scary
<jsgotangco> god morning
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> you free Tuesday evening? How about beer & pizza & BS somewhere - your place or downtown?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: either. You want to do a fringe show as well?
<Madpilot> is that running already?
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> already picked out what I want to see
<Madpilot> what's running Tuesday night, anything interesting?
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<Burgundavia> http://www.intrepidtheatre.com/shows.html?venue3 <-- rebel without a niche is showing at 9:45 on tuesday
<Burgundavia> alternatively, at 7:45 there is "in the packaging it came in"
<Burgundavia> http://www.intrepidtheatre.com/shows.html?venue1
<Madpilot> I'm at work until 6 @ BH, making that early show would be difficult
<Madpilot> the late one could be entertaining, though
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> why don't you come here?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, sure - how good evening buses from your place?
<Burgundavia> 11 goes right outside my door
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, good - see you around 6:45/7 at your place, then
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<mdke_> Seveas: around?
<Seveas> yes
<Seveas> WARNING 2006-08-28T20:40:26 Error connecting to
<Seveas>         calvino.freenode.net:6667: User timeout caused connection
<Seveas>         failure.
<mdke_> Seveas: I saw the bug bot doing something cool in #launchpad, announcing new bugs, is it possible to set that up here too, for distros/ubuntu/+source/(k)ubuntu-docs and products/ubuntu-doc ?
<Seveas> yes
<mdke_> that would be awesome, do you need me to do anything more?
<Seveas> who gets bugmail for those products? docteam?
<mdke_> Seveas: people/ubuntu-doc, I'm fairly sure
<Seveas> ok, then I'll create a 3rd account for ubugtu
<mdke_> thanks!
<nixternal_> ooh, nice one mdke!
<Seveas> mdke, please accept ubugutu-docbugs as member of people/ubuntu-doc
<jjesse> nixternal_: can you resend that diff of the guide you sent me ?
<nixternal_> heh
<nixternal_> sure thing
<jjesse> grin thanks 
<jjesse> it got lost in my spam filter for some #%%#%# reason
<nixternal_> sent
<Seveas> mdke, ?
<mdke> Seveas: sure, sorry was away
<mdke> Seveas: done
<Seveas> ok, then let's put him to work
<Seveas> @config channel plugins.bugtracker.bugreporter /home/dennis/ubugtu/data/bugmail-doc
<Seveas> @config channel plugins.bugtracker.bugreporter /home/dennis/ubugtu/data/bugmail-doc
<Seveas> ok, that should've done it
<mdke> I'll file a bug
<mdke> o.o
<mdke> oh, there is a delay in email
<Seveas> it takes some time
<Seveas> 5 minute launchpad delay
<Ubugtu> New bug: #58027 in ubuntu-doc "Ubuntu documentation is too good, and the docteam are too cool" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58027
<mdke> yay
<mdke> thanks Seveas 
<jjesse> confirm that bug :)
* Burgwork hugs mdke 
* jjesse cheers Seveas
<nixternal> haha, i just noticed the email for that bug...i was like mdke got a hold of some toxic fumes and logged onto the LP..then i realized, ahhh he is testing the bot ;)
<nixternal> i can confirm that bug btw, but just to let you know, it would be impossible to patch jjesse right now, so send it upstream
<nixternal> ;)
<jjesse> ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> jjesse: i sent you a new patch...it validates here fine..and it is to kubuntu/switching/C/intro.xml
<nixternal> don't know why you would have had issues with the last one though...also this patch is just to show you really what i have done with the intro.xml and the idea i have with it..it still needs a lot of work and i am continuing to do more to it here today as well
<jjesse> cool
<nixternal> did that work for you?
<jjesse> yes it did  
<jjesse> sorry slow at work
<nixternal> hehe
<jjesse> dang only got a couple of weeks left to doc string freeze
<jjesse> gotta get working :(
<LaserJock> when is it?
<mdke> yes
<nixternal> thats fine...i really created the patch jsut so you can see the idea behind the intro..there was talk the other night about creating a generic introl that contains all of the history and support stuff...so, don't know when that will happen though
<jjesse> sept. 14th
<LaserJock> what?
<nixternal> heh
<LaserJock> darn it
<nixternal> go go go
<LaserJock> I thought it was *after* Univerrse Freeze
<LaserJock> grrrr
<jjesse> just found out they want to do an edgy version of the book as well
<nixternal> jjesse: please tell me that the SFW doesn't have to be done by the freeze
<jjesse> gotta get cracking on that as well :(
<jjesse> nixternal: i would love it to be, but i think it will be in edgy +1 the way things are going :(
<nixternal> whew, ya, because we need to finish up on some of the current kubuntu docs for edgy
<jjesse> destkop guide and release notes
<nixternal> i have started the "release notes", 
<jjesse> i noticed
<nixternal> so i can continue on that if everythign is ok
<jjesse> need to update adept guide and fianlly get that published to kde's svn
<mdke> yeah, I don't think SFW is going to make it for Edgy
<nixternal> desktop guide, last i heard robotgeek was trying to split up some work with me, and i haven't heard from him since
<jjesse> mdke: agreed unforntaly
<nixternal> is there a way to apply or force the apply of a patch that was created in an older revision?
<mdke> nixternal: no idea
* mdke can't figure out how to deal with the linux-basics section in the desktop guide, it feel so out of place
<nixternal> i cheated..i replaced the (revision ####) with the new revision in the patch..and it worked ;)
<nixternal> jjesse: what are we to do about the desktop guide?  i don't want to step on robotgeek's toes, however we need to get going on it, with the freeze 2 weeks away pretty much
<LaserJock> mdke: really :/
<Burgwork> doc freeze is two weeks away?
<Burgwork> ugh
<nixternal> sept. 14th
<nixternal> 16 days
<mdke> LaserJock: really which?
<nixternal> or less depending on where in the world you are
<LaserJock> mdke: wrt, linux-basics being out of place
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, it feels really bad in the new-look desktop guide
<mhz> mdke: hi there
<mhz> i am not sure if i asked you this before but...when could we have a newer moin system instead of 1.3.5?
<mdke> mhz: the webmaster is working on it (and yes, of course you've asked me before :)
<mdke> LaserJock: ah, moving the chapter earlier makes it look better. If you have any feedback on the layout of the new DG, i'd appreciate it (just committed)
<mhz> mdke: hehe, sorry, but any ideas about 'when' we could have that?
<mhz> mdke: also, is there any procedure to ask for Macro and/or Plugin installations?
<mdke> mhz: nope
<mdke> mhz: yes, file a bug on ubuntu-website
<mhz> oh, i see
<mhz> thx, as usual
<mdke> np, 1.5 is overdue already
<mhz> yeah, 1.6 will rule
<mhz> esp. with syncing pages and email support
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-29
<nixternal> hiya Madpilot!
<Madpilot> hi nixternal 
<Madpilot> what's up?
<osg> hihi
<nixternal> trying to get my "ubuntu" monster all setup
<nixternal> hiya osg
<osg> nixternal: Where are you located?
<nixternal> somewhere in chicago
* osg is just curious.
<osg> Ah, I am on the west coast.
<osg> I have been tabbing over to this channel for a couple of weeks and have meant to get more involved.
<osg> Do you write professionally?
<nixternal> nope
<osg> Ah.
<nixternal> im a sys admin by profession
<osg> I write professionally for a living and need to figure out how to come home and write more (for Ubuntu).  :)
<nixternal> there is definitely alot to write about here thats for sure
<nixternal> we "maintain" the wiki, help.ubuntu and wiki.ubuntu, doc.ubuntu, as well as the documentation installed on every ubuntu machine
<osg> I work in DocBook and use XML source.
<osg> Any need to have ppl write man pages?
<nixternal> well, you are definitely in the right location...which flavor of Ubuntu do you use?
<nixternal> we use docbook and xml for everything..you familiar with debiandocs at all?
<osg> Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, if that is what you mean.
<osg> nixternal: Not yet.
<nixternal> we are working now trying to get everything ready for the freeze on 10/14
<osg> Ah, yes.
<Madpilot> osg, our main documentation is in docbook; you can check it out of SVN if you want, then submit patches to the mailing list
<osg> Ok.
<osg> I need to read up on SVN a bit.
<osg> I have used it, but it has been over a year.  But, source control mechanisms share much of the same logic.
<nixternal> fairly simples
<osg> yep
<osg> Just don't want to make stupid mistakes and waste people's time.
<Madpilot> we've got a good docbook validation script; if that gives a clean report and your changed doc still runs in Yelp you should be good to go
<nixternal> there is really only 3 or 4 commands you will use right now....   svn checkout (use this to download everything), svn status (check status of repos), svn up (updates your local svn dir), and svn diff (to create patches)
<osg> Thanks.
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
* osg reads.
<osg> I see a couple misspellings on this page:
<osg> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/keyboard-skills.html
<osg> Is it best to e-mail the author or the whole mailing list?
<Madpilot> osg, fix them, make sure the XML validates, send the patches to the list - great way to introduce yourself :)
<osg> Ah, ok.
<Madpilot> so yes, mail your patches to the mailing list, not whoever is listed as the author
* osg reads some more.
<osg> Just to be anal, how do I verify the Fingerprint?
<osg> I am running this command:
<osg> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-doc
<osg> I am reading this web site:
<osg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<osg> The following link does not exist:
<osg> nano ~/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/getting-started.xml
<osg> err, .xml file.
<LaserJock> osg: some things have been changing
<LaserJock> it might have moved
<osg> Ah, ok.
<Madpilot> we've been radically restructuring the Ubuntu Desktop Guide - I'm not sure where anything is anymore, either
<osg> Ah, ok.
<osg> Anyway, I wanted to make changes to this page:
<osg> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/keyboard-skills.html
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't see it
<osg> And keyboard-skills.xml is not in C. Should I start getting involved with another doc?
<Madpilot> osg, looks like that file has been replaced - I just updated my SVN checkout, and it doesn't exist
<Madpilot> I need to spend an evening figuring out what Matthew has been doing with the UDG :)
<osg> I spotted two typos: keyboars and Applicantions.
* osg technically just got her feet wet.
<osg> Whee
<Madpilot> Applicantions - those are things that don't allow you to do stuff, I guess :)
<osg> lol
<LaserJock> osg: check out linux-basics
<LaserJock> .xml
<Madpilot> need to go get food, I'll be back later
<osg> thx
<osg> ttyl
<nixternal> robotgeek: you still want to split up the work with the kdg let me know..what sections need work?  we have 2 weeks until the doc freeze for edgy
<mdke> Madpilot: that's one of the files from the Gnome user-guide
<Madpilot> mdke, which is?
<mdke> 04:29:11 < osg> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/keyboard-skills.html
<Madpilot> hmm, I'm at revision 3264, so current w/ SVN, but I don't seem to have that file?
<mdke> Madpilot: you've got it at /usr/share/gnome/help/user-guide/C
<Madpilot> ah
<mdke> the desktop guide now incorporates some of those files (see desktopguide.xml)
<mdke> on the preview server those parts are likely to be really out of date, because the preview server is running breezy... so the user-guide bits are breezy
<mdke> am I making sense?
<Madpilot> possibly, but it's late here... I also haven't been following your changes to the UDG that closely in the last week or so
<mdke> anyway, it's basically just that it incorporates the Gnome user-guide
<Burgundavia> mdke: the book has some printing stuff we can borrow, I think
<Burgundavia> now the book is only CCbysa2.0
<mdke> Burgundavia: that would be good
<Burgundavia> but canonical owns the copyright, so they can relicense it
<mdke> we should move to that too :/
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> given that debian compat is not a major issue for us and we consider the ccbysa2.0 to be free
<mdke> yes
<mdke> do you know what chapter the printing stuff is in?
<Burgundavia> the desktop one
<Burgundavia> let me get my copy
<mdke> hmm. Isn't in my electronic version
<Burgundavia> chapter 4
<Burgundavia> I can retype it if neccessary
<Madpilot> where is the electronic copy available from?
<Burgundavia> afaik, currently nowhere but the copies the authors have themselves, canonical and prentince hall
<mdke> System->Help->Book Excerpts
<Burgundavia> and the excerpt from dapper
<mdke> I can't find any printing stuff, maybe that is out of date
<Burgundavia> do you have chapter 4?
<Burgundavia> we added the printing stuff pretty late
<mdke> I just have the desktop chapter
<Burgundavia> that is 3
<mdke> ah, right
<mdke> can we get an electronic copy?
<Burgundavia> ping Jane
<mdke> alright. We should have a meeting to discuss the licensing thing, I'd like to sort that ot
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> maybe we should publish a list of things we want done to see if we can get other people to come in and help us
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to crash, tired
<mdke> night, thanks
<Burgundavia> no worries
<mdke> there is some more good stuff in the book we can use, hopefully. Even if it's a bit late
<Burgundavia> yep
<rob> mdke: let me know how that meeting pans out :)
<mdke> ok
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<jsgotangco> hey what's up
<bhuvan> hello jsgotangco; just wanted to know if we got any update from micah about commits bot
<jsgotangco> i cannot say, i just got online after a 4 day break ;)
<bhuvan> yeah ok
<bhuvan> so where were you 4 days?
<jsgotangco> oh just my hometown, folks arrived for a vacation, had to bring them my daughter as well heh
<bhuvan> oh ok!
* nixternal speaks into the microphone...check check, test test, 1 2 3, test,,,is this mic on?
<Burgwork> nixternal, loud and clear
<nixternal> goto bed at 3, wake up at 7, work til now..im dead
<nixternal> we just installed a wireless cisco network in our village hall...man, they have fresh donuts and coffee all day long..so it is true about cops and donuts
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> man..they did a 1/4 million dollars worth or cisco hardware...that was a cool setup..they have their own mesh now
<trappist> the picture I get in my head when I hear 'village hall' doesn't jibe with the picture for 1/4 million dollars worth of cisco hardware
<nixternal> heh, i wouldn't either, but it is more of a village hall & county center
<nixternal> they just reubuilt the entire building..it is over 100 years old, and massive..and then they added to the new structure as well...they have the money, we have the time
<LaserJock> trappist: hehe, welcome to bug triage :-)
<trappist> LaserJock: no kidding
<trappist> wait, I mean
<trappist> can I triage now?
<LaserJock> trappist: that is some of why I tend to avoid working on bugs I don't know
<LaserJock> people tend to get pretty  excited about bugs
<trappist> yeah, that.  well, that'll learn me :)
<LaserJock> no, don't give up though
<LaserJock> you just have to build a somewhat thick skin
<LaserJock> as you will probably get yelled at from time to time (especially if they are Main packages)
<trappist> oh I still do bugs, but apparently my campaign was an unpopular one
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> it was only unpopular to some
<LaserJock> and as Simon *is* the Canonical QA guy I think you are pretty ok in what you did
<trappist> some very loud and pissed off core developers :)
<trappist> who's simon?
<jjesse> sflaw
<trappist> ah.
<trappist> I did notice that I didn't hear anything else after invoking his name
<LaserJock> well, yeah, he and dholbach pretty much run the bug triage
<LaserJock> I would just keep in good contact with #ubuntu-bugs and sfflaw
<LaserJock> and you should be fine
<trappist> sounds like a plan
<LaserJock> but it is probably wise (at least to start with) to be careful around Main bugs
<nixternal> plus you got to remember, it isn't hard to reverse what mistakes you made anyways. i have been there done that as well so don't feel bad at all
<nixternal> if you don't make mistakes, how are you to learn?  there isn't #bug-triage-school or anything...no worries bud
<trappist> nixternal: well I feel pretty ok because I got buy-off from the right people before doing it.  I knew it was somewhat iffy.
<nixternal> sflaw and crimsun are a bug triagers best friend w/o a doubt as well
<jjesse> any word from robogeek yet?
<nixternal> not yet
<nixternal> i pinged him last night, but my internet went down
<nixternal> i see him over there ---> though
<jjesse> grumble grumble, doc freeze is pushing locser and closer
<jjesse> robotgeek: PING !!!!!
<jjesse> grin
<LaserJock> yelling at him won't make him show up any sooner
<trappist> jjesse: uh oh, when is the freeze?
<Burgwork> sept 16th, I think
<nixternal> 14th
<osg> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2006/08/sudo.gif
<LaserJock> haha
<osg> If only I could count the times I forgot sudo.
<trappist> man that is awesome.
<Burgwork> going in this weeks UWN
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-30
<nixternal> hiya
<LaserJock> hi nixternal 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, made it... not sure why it took XChat so long to connect, though...
<Burgundavia> freenode, likely
<jsgotangco> its freenode
<jsgotangco> the new debian chat server is lightning fast
<Madpilot> true, but the Debian server likely also has a lot fewer users than freenode
<Burgundavia> debian is oftc
<Burgundavia> I have not seen numbers
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: what was that other browser based game you referred to?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, shartak.com
<Burgundavia> cheers
<Mithrandir> hi, we're getting close to a new knot release, so I was wondering if any of you could whip up a "what's new and shiny in knot-2" page similar to what we had for the flights in dapper?
<jsgotangco> how soon are you looking?
<Mithrandir> well, I'd like to do the release tomorrow, so I know I'm a bit late this time. :-/
<Mithrandir> even so, having the page on Friday would be a lot more useful than not at all
<jsgotangco> hmmm i don't have my edgy handy here but ill look into the old wiki pages, i have a few days to spare till i move to my new work next monday
<Mithrandir> oh, great thanks! :-)
<Mithrandir> can you get the rest of the docteam to help you if you need that, too?
<jsgotangco> yes of course
<jsgotangco> i'll probably ask someone doing kubuntu too
<jsgotangco> i think they had a knot-1 preview before :/
<Mithrandir> thanks a lot
<jsgotangco> np
<jsgotangco> ouch the kubuntu guys are creaming us
<jsgotangco> Mithrandir: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyEft/Knot2/
<jsgotangco> someone already started it
<jsgotangco> just needs cleanup now nice
<Mithrandir> oh, excellent. :-)
<Mithrandir> I'll leave it your and the rest of the docteam's capable hands, then.
<glatzor> mdke: hi. andreas llyod visted me the last days and we talked a little bit about the documentation. So I would like to point to a nice feature of the German Ubuntu wiki. It provides knowledge dependencies: At the top of each site there is a list of wiki pages that should have read before. Currently the server seems to be down or quite slow. You could take a look at http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/
<glatzor> mdke: the German documentation wiki is quite large: it has more than 1300 pages.
<jjesse> glatzor: that's awesome :)
<jjesse> just make sure Riddell keeps them under an hour :)
<jjesse> doh wrong channel
<glatzor> jjesse: yeah it is. Especially since it is maintained mostly by three guys
<glatzor> and they review 1200 pages for dapper 
<glatzor> reviewed
<jjesse> wow
<mdke> glatzor: ok, I'll look
<mdke> I was vaguely aware that the german wiki was really good
<glatzor> you can talk to them on #ubuntuusers-wiki
<glatzor> mdke: 
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-31
<Burgwork> http://www.linux-tutorial.info/modules.php?name=MReviews&op=show&rid=18
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hello jjesse how are you doing?
<jjesse> doing well and u?
<jsgotangco> ahh pretty busy, going to move to a new job next week
<jsgotangco> its been hectic
<jsgotangco> but should normalise soonish
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<nixternal> mornin'
<jsgotangco> hi!
<trappist> bug 57831
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 57831 in kdeadmin "KDE Network Settings docs broken" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/57831
<trappist> is that us?
<Burgwork> sort of
<nixternal> ooh thats a fun bug, send it upstream ;)
<nixternal> let Lauri fix it..i think it is a man convert gone crazy
<jjesse> shouldn't that be opened in the kde docs bugzilla and flagged as upstream?
<nixternal> yup
<trappist> I've been working with the kde docs folks, I'll ask em about it
<nixternal> there is nothing we can do with it..however i have been aiding with kde docs lately
<nixternal> it is already done upstream...and for a while at that
<nixternal> odd
<jjesse> just create a bug in bgs.de.org
<jjesse> hmm then flagged it as the bug #
<jjesse> nixternal: you saw that knot2 cd is out?
<nixternal> yup
<trappist> nixternal: I have a recent svn checkout from kde, and it's the same.  maybe they added the dtd/kdex.dtd?
<nixternal> odd thing is that it looks fine in SuSE
<trappist> nixternal: do you know if suse patched it?
<nixternal> im guessing they did
<trappist> because I can't find the dtd in the svn tree, and that's what's missing
<nixternal> because is is borked in the kde svn as well
<trappist> yeah
<trappist> PhilRod from #kde-doc says maybe DocBook XML V4.1-Based Variant should be V4.2, but changing that makes no difference here
<trappist> err *kde-docs
<mdke> hiya
<jjesse> hello mpt_
<jjesse> doh, hiya mdke
<nixternal> hi mdke
* mdke took that as a compliment
<LaserJock> hi mdke et, al.
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> hiya LaserJock!
<nixternal> didn't see you sneak in there
<trappist> getting internal server errors on launchpad now.
<nixternal> lovely
<mdke> the instructions on making compiz work on the Edgy Knot2 page didn't work for me, the command just breaks the window manager. is there a further trick necessary.
<mdke> s/./?
<nixternal> heh, that isn't good
<nixternal> i used the howto from the forums
<mdke> I tried installing compiz-gnome too. but "compiz --replace" doesn't work 
<mdke> perhaps the instructions should be modified, or do they work for others?
<nixternal> those screenies are huge
<Burgwork> nixternal, yes, yes they are. Feel free to get me some. I was rushing to get it done because I expected the release a few hours agao
<nixternal> ya, and now they are holding off
<nixternal> go figure
<Burgwork> mdke, hmm, that is what I was told, but it broke for me to. Maybe we should link to a wiki page?
* nixternal don't have gnome desktop here
<mdke> Burgwork: who would know?
<Burgwork> not I
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-01
<Kamping_Kaiser> i just found some pages that should be in the help wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backtrace and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingFirefox . that said. the whole debugging section of the wiki is replicated across both. it might need consolidation?
<Burgundavia> Kamping_Kaiser: feel free to move pages to the help wiki
<Kamping_Kaiser> Burgundavia, i'm heading out soon. if i feel brave enojugh i'll try when i get home
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<nixternal> jsgotangco: keep an eye out on the planet, an attack is heading your way ;)
<jsgotangco> wahaha
<jsgotangco> attack me?
<jsgotangco> nixternal: well i really didnt ride the metro in chicago
<jsgotangco> was piggybacking with my bro's jeep
<nixternal> ahh hehe
<nixternal> still..you lived in the city and still didn't hit the cta or the l
<nixternal> ;)
<jsgotangco> hahah yeah shame on me
<jsgotangco> ill be there in december
<nixternal> i hate trains with a passion..but when my x-wife and i traveled europe and lived over there when i was in the military..we took trains everywhere
<nixternal> really..i will be in chicago in december too ;)
<nixternal> Ubuntu chicago meeting, and you are giving a talke ;)
<jsgotangco> will spend the new year there
<nixternal> good ol' new years..gotta hit division for that..poets, mothers, and all the good clubs
<nixternal> i don't drink..so they are boring to me now
<crimsun> nixternal will be a raging ubuntu-aholic by january '07
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> i already am..well Kubuntu-aholic that is ;)
<jsgotangco> if the meme consisted of airles, sabdfl would have his own airline brand
<jsgotangco> lol
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i hate flying and i hate trains
<nixternal> driving is my only mode of transportation i feel safe with
<jenda> Burgwork: ping
<jenda> I'm looking for some good reference concerning Ubuntu, Ubuntu Linux and Ubuntu GNU/Linux
<jenda> (A link would feel better than just typing off the top of my head)
<HighBit> http://www.newsobserver.com/1325/story/481029.html
<Burgwork> jenda, pong
<jenda_> aha
<jenda_> What was it that i wanted? :-D
<Burgwork> the gnu/linux, linux thing
<jenda_> aha ;)
<Burgwork> ubuntu is just ubuntu primarily to establish our own brand and primarily to avoid the whole holy war
<jenda_> good point there
<Burgwork> we refer to ourselves as based on Linux, not based on GNU/Linux, becuase Linux is what the average consumer knows
<LaserJock> Burgwork: can you get to https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+calendar/+subscriptions
<Burgwork> plus GNU/Linux is a mouthful
<trappist> especially if you don't happen to know how to pronounce gnu, which isn't really obvious
<trappist> I hate reading stuff I don't know how to pronounce.
<jenda_> OK, thx
<LaserJock> or you think that Ubuntu is based on some Linux offshoot
<jenda_> I'll have a look at what i wrote...
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I can get there. What should I be looking for?
<LaserJock> hmm, are there like a million subscriptions
<LaserJock> I can't seem to get there (timeout)
<LaserJock> and whenever I go to a calendar on LP I get probably close to a thousand "Ubuntu Documentation Project" lines under Subscriptions
<Burgwork> interesting
<LaserJock> makes it very slow to get to calendars
<LaserJock> and I can't do some other things with the calendars because of timeouts
<Burgwork> ask in #launchpad
<LaserJock> I did :/
<LaserJock> ever so good at ignoring me, as usual
<Burgwork> right, ask again
* jsgotangco would still prefer to see it as GNU/Linux with his FSF sword in hand
<jsgotangco> but its my opinion
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, right and that is why we are not GNU/Linux
<Burgwork> because RMS is a raving lunatic
<jsgotangco> we're not really going to put that guy in the equation really
<jsgotangco> even if he dies tomorrow GNU will still live
<LaserJock> well, I just object to it on principle of it being confusing and somewhat nonsensical, but I can see why some people would disagree :-)
<trappist> so I can resume my s/GNU\/Linux/Linux/g campaign?
<glatzor> hi mdke. is there an other document that describes how to get support by the community then https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/getting-help.html?
<glatzor> mdke: I would like to integrate an "get help/support" function in gnome-app-install
<glatzor> mdke: if the app is supported by canonical or an isv we could direct the user to a corresponding web site
<glatzor> but how to deal with apps that are only supported by the community?
<nixternal> like automatix and easyubuntu?
<LaserJock> nixternal: noooooo
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> i don't use them anyways
<nixternal> apps supported by the community would be 3rd party apps?  or did i totally miss soemthing there ;)
<LaserJock> Universe
<nixternal> or ya, those too ;)
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> 3rd party is different
<glatzor> nixternal: universe and the rest of the world
<LaserJock> 3rd party is supported by the 3rd party
<glatzor> nixternal: an app can be supported by canonical, isv (third party) or only the community
<glatzor> I think that it isn't wrong that all apps are somehow supported by the community
<nixternal> ya, i read into wrong, just like i figured ;)
<LaserJock> well, I suppose it could be supported by Ubuntu, supported by Canonical, supported by community, supported by other 3rd party
<LaserJock> or something similar
<nixternal> or supported by LaserJock ;)
<LaserJock> heh, that would fall under "community"
<nixternal> oh, so you are the community then ;)
<LaserJock> part of anyway :-)
<glatzor> nixternal, LaserJock: guys, but to return to my first question: do you now any central document for getting help from the community?
<nixternal> there is one in the works, that i do know
<nixternal> the one that Andreas (lloydhino) has been working on
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure if that's what glatzor is looking for
<glatzor> nixternal: it's not about contributing
<nixternal> about kubuntu has contribute links i believe..but i don't know about ubuntu
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ping?
<glatzor> nixternal: I search for asite that provides a solution for "If I have got a problem in my Ubuntu, where could I get help"
<nixternal> i don't know of any like that really
<LaserJock> well, there is help.ubuntu.com
<glatzor> but that is quite generic
<nixternal> and most of help.ubuntu.com is installed in docs locally anyways
<LaserJock> well, help.ubuntu.com/community in particular
<glatzor> I even thought about linking directly to the forums
<nixternal> front page of help.ubuntu.com that is
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> glatzor: I'd rather not see that
<glatzor> i am off for some minutes
<nixternal> i can see though however, it would be nice to have a "Help" section that would list all of the locations, with a brief description to go for help
<nixternal> his boss just walked by ;)
<LaserJock> well, http://www.ubuntu.com/support
<nixternal> that is great, but if i install Ubuntu on a system for someone, they might not know about that page
<LaserJock> oh, well that's not the point
<LaserJock> he was looking for a doc for g-a-i I think
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> for instance...in KHelpCenter, there is a doc "KDE on the Web"
<nixternal> how about creating something similar "Ubuntu on the Web" that would list the support pages maybe
<LaserJock> I guess ideally they should all go to the Support tracker on LP
<mdke> hiya
<nixternal> yes, but at the same time. support tracker is the most efficient either
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> ekdm ayih
<mdke> I don't see the point of providing help through g-a-i
<LaserJock> but it *will* be the Ubuntu support tool
<mdke> it seems logical to me that help is provided through the application that the user is using
<nixternal> hmm.. LaserJock, i meant to say that support tracker ISN'T the most efficient
<LaserJock> mdke: I think he was just looking for generic thing to mention where to get support of Universe apps
<nixternal> +1 with mdke and the app providing help
<LaserJock> well, sure
<LaserJock> I didn't see it as replacing app help or anything
<mdke> anyway, we now do have a separate "get help" doc, although it isn't very good right now
<LaserJock> just trying to show people the difference between the various "kinds" of software
<mdke> so, we *really* need to have a meeting
<mdke> when can we do this?
<nixternal> right now?
<LaserJock> next Wednesday at 19:00 UTC?
<nixternal> just kidding
<mdke> nixternal: is a good idea.
<nixternal> heh
<mdke> LaserJock: that would work for me, dunno about others
<LaserJock> if I remember right, 19:00-21:00 was pretty good for most people
<nixternal> i will be pimping Ubuntu at the college then ;)
<mdke> we just need to sort out some licensing things
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> and poke people about working on docs
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> im working on some...i would like to help robotgeek with the kdg, but he is one busy dude
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, some poking would work
<mdke> glatzor: I haven't read all the scrollback about your idea yet, but my first impression about what you said is:
<mdke> 19:13:20 < mdke> I don't see the point of providing help through g-a-i
<mdke> 19:13:41 < mdke> it seems logical to me that help is provided through the application that the user is using
<mdke> 19:14:41 < mdke> anyway, we now do have a separate "get help" doc, although it isn't very good right now
<glatzor> mdke: the focus is on promoting canonical and its servers more in the user interface
<glatzor> the question is what to do if an app is only supported by the community
<glatzor> for canonical or isv the case would be quite clear: "You can get commercial support for BLABLA from Canonical Ltd."
<mdke> glatzor: I'm not sure I get the point, maybe I'll understand better when reading the scrollback/an email. But now there is a Help menu with the support options, I don't quite see how including something in g-a-i would work, it might in fact provide confusing... not sure
<mdke> I'd certainly like to expand our "how to get more help" doc
<glatzor> mdke: I give you an example: for all applications main there will be the following sentence in the description of the application:
<glatzor> "You can get commercial support for BLABLA from Canonical Ltd."
<mdke> "there will be the following sentence", or "there could be the following sentence"?
<mdke> (just trying to get a feel for whether this is up for discussion, or has already been decided)
<glatzor> I am discussing this with mdy currently
<Burgwork> LaserJock, pong
<glatzor> mdke: but the question is how to handle apps that are not commercially supported (by canonical or isv)
<LaserJock> Burgwork: thought you might want to weigh in on the current discussion
<mdke> glatzor: and is the focus based on what is best for the user, or what is best for Canonical in terms of marketing their services? 
<glatzor> perhaps it's the best to not show anything for these apps
<mdke> again, that sounds rude, but I'm trying to get a feeling for the discussion
<Burgwork> right
<glatzor> I think that it is also of interest of the user for which apps he could get support
<Burgwork> so the current plan is to show that you can get support for an app from canonical is g-a-i?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, thanks?
<mdke> Burgwork: I think that seems an accurate summary
<glatzor> the plan is to enhance g-a-i and not to make g-a-i a central entry point for support questions
<Burgwork> so how does that help my aunt or grandmother?
<mdke> I see
* mdke goes to dinner
<LaserJock> Burgwork: sorry? :-)
<glatzor> Burgwork: If you paid for the support this is of interest for you.
<Burgwork> for me, the vast majority of users of g-a-i are going to be home users and those learning that they can get support from canonical is uselss
<Burgwork> becuase commercial users (who care about this kind of thing) are not going to see gai
<Burgwork> so lets seperate out the isv stuff and the stuff in ubuntu's repos
<Burgwork> for the former case, I think it makes sense to point them at the isv
<Burgwork> for anything in the main repos, I would simply point them at LP's support tracker
<Burgwork> s/the main/any of the ubuntu repos/
<glatzor> Burgwork: this is already done by launchpad-integration on an per app base
<Burgwork> no reason not to say, on each application "you can get support for this via Launchpad"
<Burgwork> but I think pointing at Canonical is mostly useless for the home user, who is currently the primary user of g-a-i
<glatzor> I am not quite familiar with the support infrastructure of launchpad
<Burgwork> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+tickets
<glatzor> Burgwork: to be honest, it is about advertising canonical :)
<Burgwork> right, well I just don't see value in advertising canonicals support services through gai
<glatzor> perhaps some commercial users have been "normal" users before
<Burgwork> you are more likely just to piss off the community and not gain anything
<Burgwork> because canonical really doesn't want the small fry
<Burgwork> therefor, the better place to list that kind of support would be on that LP page, with a link to the Ubuntu page
<glatzor> Burgwork: could you discuss this with mdy? he wanted a visual better visual representation for canonical's services. so this was a proposal by me.
<Burgwork> right
<glatzor> i am no insider of canonical :)
<Burgwork> mdy will listen to me
<Burgwork> there are many great places to mention the many support options for Ubuntu. gai is not one of them
<glatzor> Burgwork: so you would also limited the "is supported by" info only to ISV applications?
<Burgwork> yes
<Burgwork> that might also include things in multiverse
<Burgwork> it has to be a case by case basis
<glatzor> Burgwork: isn't dapper-commercial the better place for commercially supported applications?
<Burgwork> yes, but there a few things in multiverse that also have ISVs behind them, like vmware-player and desktop-multiplier
<Burgwork> basically, we need to compile of list of applications and the links the should have and add those
<Burgwork> everything else should point to the LP support tracker
<glatzor> Burgwork: If we don't make a difference for not and supported by Canonical applications, I think that we could also skip this launchpad information completely
<glatzor> it was also planned as a feature that should provide the user more orientation and not as a support entry point.
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> I just don't see what value that provides to the user
<Burgwork> however, listing where they can get support is a great thing
<Burgwork> if you think about it, large companies that want to contact Canonical are going to do their research and find out about it
<glatzor> Indeed. Perhaps this information cannot be mentioned too much :)
<Burgwork> then they are going to sit down with Canonical and learn about the support options
<Burgwork> a listing in gai is not going to do anything but piss off the 95% of the users who see it and wonder if Ubuntu is going commercial
<glatzor> But what about a user that wants to use for example panda security desktop.
<nixternal> robotgeek: pingaling?
<Burgwork> that is the ISV case we already talked about
<Burgwork> I am talking about non-ISV stuff (95% of the repos)
<glatzor> ah ok, got that wrong. thought that you would still refer to the ISV apps
<Burgwork> no
<glatzor> It would be nice if you could notify me about a final conclusion with mdy
<Burgwork> I will
<Burgwork> hey Madpilot, rob 
<Madpilot> hi Burgwork - slacking hard, are you?
<Burgwork> of course
<Madpilot> good to hear
<jenda> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/knot2 is a great piece of work
<Burgwork> jenda, thanks
<jenda> Madpilot: just after you left earlier, I suggested I might consider your flyers for the next batch of shipped DIY material (batch 3 or 4 - posters have priority, and there might be one more of stickers before).
<Madpilot> jenda, cool. Burgwork is going to do an editing run thru the text on them, I think
<jenda> Don't worry - it will take me at least a month before I'm done with posters...
<jenda> :)
<jenda> If somebody catches the line and beats me to shipping flyers - _great_
<jenda> Burgwork: am I wrong... or does that page _not_ link to a download?
<Burgwork> yes, I just realized that
<Burgwork> need to fix it
<Burgwork> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/edgy/knot-2/ <-- anybody else getting a blank screen here?
<mdke> works here
<Burgwork> ok, that is good
<Burgwork> LaserJock, ping
<LaserJock> what?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-02
<theCore> anyone know whether the changes in the Packaging Guide mentioned in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EasierMotuing have been implemented?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-03
<Plug> Burgundavia: a knot release note question
<Plug> "Top Men have been working on Compiz"
<Plug> why capitalised?
<crimsun> To which noun are you referring?
<Plug> Men.
<Plug> It might not be a bug, if Top Men is a group name, or something.
<Plug> I ask because I believe a lot of compiz work is done by a woman.
<crimsun> I don't know what semantic importance is attributed to it; it could very well simply be a mis-capitalisation.
<crimsun> I doubt it's meant to exclude work by anyone
<nixternal> in KDE Help Center, there is a "KDE on the Web"...I will be creating a version "Kubuntu on the Web", however I was thinking of just adding it to the "About Kubuntu" documentation
<nixternal> heh, another thing i just noticed... the About Kubuntu documentation is way different then the "About Kubuntu" information in the Desktop Guide as well...maybe these should ==
<nixternal> robotgeek: ping?
<Madpilot> so, are mdke & I still the only people with deletion/rename privs on huc/c?
<Burgundavia> Plug: Top Men is a joke
<Burgundavia> crimsun: ^
<nixternal> it was nice and quiet
<Burgundavia> it was
<nixternal> man..i just did 3 homework assignments
<nixternal> i can't believe i stuck with it
<crimsun> Burgundavia: 10-4.
<Burgundavia> for the record, I didn't even now Quinn was a woman and it certainly was not an attempt to exclude her
<Burgundavia> mdke: help.ubuntu.com is down
<Plug> Burgundavia: fair enough
<Plug> wasn't sure from context, was all :)
<Burgundavia> no worries
<ompaul> anyone got a big stick that can restart services the box is up but the wiki is missing :(
<ompaul> Burgundavia, and why is it always on a Sunday morning ? :-
<ompaul> :-
<ompaul> arrrr
<ompaul> :-
<Burgundavia> ompaul: no idea, but I can start a gobby session on this machine for people to edit
<ompaul> should we look for wiki2. and help2 for such instances?
<Burgundavia> canonical just needs to solve the issue
<Burgundavia> I understand they are looking to purchase some new equipment
<ompaul> ahh, new bigger faster servers with go faster stripes down the side
<Burgundavia> do you have gobby installed
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia>  	 24.69.71.211
<Burgundavia> port 6522
<ompaul> I don't but I can have
<ompaul> nearly there
<ompaul> Thats a cool program :)
<Burgundavia> ompaul: what colour are you?
<ompaul> some kind of brown/orange
<ompaul> I have added nothing yet
<Burgundavia> right, I see that
<ompaul> looking at the UWN
<ompaul> I have edgy accepted here 
<ompaul> as a mailing list
<ompaul> I am trying to figure the fastest way to get data out of it and over into the edgy section
<Burgundavia> ok, sounds good
<Burgundavia> try and avoid straight lists
<ompaul> well I am looking at what you have there
<ompaul> and trying to work out how you got it :)
<Burgundavia> gmail, copy and paste
<Burgundavia> then edit
<Burgundavia> please save teh document every few minutes
<ompaul> (A) don't do, (B) grep > foo (C)clean & paste :)
<Burgundavia> that works
<ompaul> okay back in 20 minutes with a bucket of entries I hope
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> ompaul: suggestion: take that list, choose the end user apps and then talk about those
<Burgundavia> 2 or 3 as paragraphs (or a logical group)
<Burgundavia> then the rest as lists
<ompaul> okay
<Burgundavia> see what I have done with the previous UWNs
<Burgundavia> tell me why I care about this new cool thing
<ompaul> at a guess it is a neat way of being multiplayer irc in a notepad :)
<ompaul> now back to work
<Burgundavia> you can do the cleanup in another document if you want
<Burgundavia> create another document within the session
<ompaul> reviewing what you have done here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter is hard when its down :)
<ompaul> back soon
<Burgundavia> yep, tell me about it
<ompaul> Burgundavia, what is the last time that you committed anything from edgy to that doc?
<Burgundavia> what do you mean? I have done nothing on the UWN on the wiki and nothing on edgy in gobby
<Burgundavia> gobby is realtime, so you can see what I edit
<ompaul> sorry, my question was badly phrased
<ompaul> in last weeks UWN what was the last package comitted
<ompaul> was it around midday utc yesterday or was it later or Friday
<Burgundavia> oh, anything committed as of midnight UTC on Saturday
<ompaul> okay
<ompaul> thanks
<ompaul> you just cut down my 49 k file a lot :)
<ompaul> thats lines of text
<Burgundavia> yep
<ompaul> my computer is being hijacked for a few minutes
<ompaul> back in as soon as I can be
<ompaul> I'll close that session
<mdke> Burgundavia: I can't do anything about that, I don't have access to that server
<Burgundavia> you cannot get to my IP?
<Burgundavia> can you ping it?
<mdke> help.ubuntu.com. Yes I can ping it
<Burgundavia> mdke: oh, are we talking help.u.c or the gobby session?
<mdke> Burgundavia: help.u.c, I was just responding to your highlight
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> right. I was referring to my IP, for the gobby session
<mdke> I'll file a ticket
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<mdke> I think there are 4 sysadmins now, so I bet someone is scheduled in for Sunday
<Burgundavia> ompaul: I am crashing now, as it is 2am here
<Burgundavia> edit all you like, machine will be up
<ompaul> okay
<Burgundavia> ompaul: remember to save frequently
<joachim-n> does Ubuntu replace the default gnome 'Add to panel' dialog?
<dsas> joachim-n: I don't know what the stock gnome one looks like, but a new dialogue was implemented for a breezy SoC project, I don't know if it went upstream.
<joachim-n> is it the flat alphabetical list?
<joachim-n> I thought that was the old one, and the categories new, but I have it in a 2.15 build 
<dsas> the ubuntu one is the one segmented into categories.
<joachim-n> and the categories on my regular Dapper
<bartkorn> hi
<bartkorn> anyone from poland ?
<Burgundavia> ompaul: ping
<ompaul> Burgundavia, yeap
<Burgundavia> ompaul: the edgy stuff you were working on got deleted somehow. Can you repaste it?
<ompaul> I know I did it
<ompaul> I said I would redo it in the morning :)
<ompaul> regex is sort of my friend :)
<Burgundavia> but I am kind of trying to release today
<ompaul> ohh fizzlesticks
<Burgundavia> I will happily take your stuff and massage it
<ompaul> that was from midnight 
<ompaul> last night
<Burgundavia> no worries
<Burgundavia> don't worry, you will still get credit
* ompaul smashes keyboard with head
<ompaul> its okay 
<ompaul> what dates did you want in there?
<ompaul> and I can do something in the next hour or so 
<Burgundavia> 27-2
<ompaul> okay I am going to vist my local seller of fizzy diet drinks and then I will motor on this
<ompaul> give me exactly one example of what you want done and I will save every 10 or so
<ompaul> sorry about that, total misunderstanding after you said this morning after midnight UTC I took it as start last night
<ompaul> :)
<Burgundavia> right, no worries
<Burgundavia> ompaul: do you know who did the upstart logo?
<Burgundavia> was it you?
<theCore> Burgundavia, yes me
<theCore> Burgundavia, I did the logo
<Burgundavia> theCore: thanks, name added
<theCore> where?
<Burgundavia> UWN 12
<theCore> oh, I read it this morning
<Burgundavia> umm, 12?
<Burgundavia> you cannot have
<Burgundavia> it has not yet been released
<theCore> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/535
<Burgundavia> that is different
<Burgundavia> UWN is ubuntu weekly news
<theCore> yeah, I just saw that
<theCore> where is it?
<theCore> the mailing list?
<Burgundavia> not yet released, but currently being gobby-ed
<theCore> no, the UWN
<Burgundavia> port 6522 on 24.69.71.211
<Burgundavia> UWN #12 is being worked on
<Burgundavia> older versions can be read on ubuntu-news, the mailing list
<theCore> first time, I heard about UWN ... 
<theCore> how do I read it? with a news reader?
<theCore> nevermind, I found the wiki page
<Burgundavia> read via email
* theCore feels lost
<Burgundavia> they can also be read on the wiki
<Burgundavia> and the wiki pages have not had love for a while
<theCore> Burgundavia, the ip address is for gobby?
<Burgundavia>  24.69.71.211
<theCore> I never heard about either, but it looks cool
<theCore> about gobby*
<Burgundavia> gobby is used for editing it, not the release
<theCore> Burgundavia, you mispelled my name
<theCore> :)
<ompaul> Burgundavia, what is the keyword for new ..  * New upstream version ?
<Burgundavia> usually
<ompaul> Burgundavia, do you want to impose a pattern on the first block of text I have put in there so I can mimic it for the rest going forward
<Burgundavia> if you have no information on it, I would just create a list of apps that have had new versions
<Burgundavia> for ones you do, create a paragraph like previous UWNs
<ompaul> okay
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-27
<Kamping_Kaiser> can i checkout *just* edubuntu and shared components from the doc?
<Kamping_Kaiser> i want to try and add something about 64bit servers with 32 bit clients (if theres none already)
<Kamping_Kaiser> i suppose on that thought, is it/should it be documented in a more generic place?
<Mez_> is it me, or is help.u.c down?
<Kamping_Kaiser> Works For Me TM
<Kamping_Kaiser> afk a bit
<Mez> I think my DNS is b0rked
<Kamping_Kaiser> sorry, but can i poke again re the question i asked earlier? i'd be willing to do a page on 'ltsp multiarch' or some equaly uncatchy name if its needed, but i seem to be having trouble finding if its needed by searching the wiki/help (and i cant search svn)
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: sounds like it's pretty edubuntu specific; but no - currently you can't just check out edubuntu and shared stuff
<nixternal> hiya mdke
<mdke> hi nixternal
<mdke> how's it going?
<nixternal> it's going...how about yourself?
<mdke> good thanks; just got back from Paris for a short holiday
<nixternal> nice...I can use a holiday myself
<mdke> holidays rock
<mdke> today was a public holiday in the uk so we took advantage of the long weekend
<nixternal> ahh, I think we have one coming up here in a couple of weeks
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4298 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: Started work on handbook for gutsy
<sbalneav> Oh, isn't that cool.
<nixternal> about time :)
<j1mc> hehe :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> oh well. suppose i'm doing a full checkout then :S
<Kamping_Kaiser> anyone else got doc.ubuntu.com gone walkies? i was hoping it could tell me how to do a checkout, or is it simply `svn co <url> <target>` as per last time i tried?
<Kamping_Kaiser> think i found it in the wiki
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<nixternal> heh
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks
<Kamping_Kaiser> any idea how big the repository is?
<nixternal> it is decent sized, but if you are using broadband, it isn't all that bad
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm downloading it at work atm, hope dansguardian doesnt block stuff *grin*
<Kamping_Kaiser> actually, https. should be safe
<nixternal> yup
<Kamping_Kaiser> now i have to go there to pick it up >.<
<nixternal> haha
<Kamping_Kaiser> :P
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-28
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4299 ubuntu/basic-commands/C/basic-commands.xml: Corrections to tense (patch from David Delony), added statuses to sections
<docs-rool> are there any ubuntu-doc people in here (not kubuntu or xubuntu)?
<nixternal> j1mc: that would be everyone else besides you, robotgeek, and myself
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> i suppose that i should do one of those !ask things for myself.
<j1mc> the 'advanced-topics.xml' file includes references to other sections, like '<ulink type="help" url="ghelp:server">'
<nixternal> right
<j1mc> i can't find those other sections, though.
<nixternal> that is because server is a whole other document
<j1mc> i can't find that document, though.
<j1mc> so if i don't know where it links to, i can't exactly modify it to suit xubuntu.  plus, i'm not sure how a regular browser would process a link that mentions yelp or 'ghelp.'
<nixternal> j1mc: server is located in common/ in the root directory of trunk
<j1mc> thank ye, nixternal
<nixternal> no problemo
<j1mc> any idea about the way that a regular browser would handle the ghelp link?
<nixternal> it won't
<nixternal> I know with firefox, you can make the KDE help:/ command work with it, but remember KDE docs are all built out to HTML
<j1mc> so i would need to set it as a regular intra-documentation link somehow.
<nixternal> someone needs to patch our firefox to include the help:/ links
<nixternal> j1mc: that link would only work if the server documentation was installed as well
<nixternal> I don't know if Ubuntu installs all of that documentation or not
<j1mc> hm.  i'll have to try at home or something.
<nixternal> how is hotlanta jjesse?
<j1mc> nixternal: i went to check out the kubuntu docs - it looks like they do something similar with the 'programming' section.  it references 'dive into python.'
<j1mc> hi jjesse - you're in atlanta?
<jjesse> j1mc: yeah i am
<jjesse> stormy
<j1mc> jjesse: i will have to go down near there for a training for work in october or something.
<nixternal> where are you staying at down there?
<j1mc> i think i'll be in marrietta?  not sure.
<jjesse> got to hang out in knoxsville due to storms in atlanta
<jjesse> i'm in the courtyard marriot someplace :)
<nixternal> j1mc: when you heading to marrietta? I almost moved there with my x-gf
<nixternal> ya, there are only 40 of them around hotlanta?
<nixternal> err, :)
<jjesse> :)
<nixternal> near G Tech?
<j1mc> maybe in october or something.  i'll be there for job training.
<jjesse> i'm just south of smryna
<nixternal> ahhh
<jjesse> what type of training, i'm teaching a class on Altiris in Atlanta in Oct. i think
<j1mc> it's training for the Employease system.  http://www.eease.com/hris/hris_technology.php  i'm going to be doing implementations for them.
<nixternal> ahh, so you are nw of hotlanta then
<nixternal> up by the airforce base
<jjesse> yeah i drove by it today
<jjesse> just down 41
<nixternal> good ol' dobbins...yup, I used to drive weapons to them guys during my last year or so in the military
<jjesse> nixternal: finishing my rebuild of my debian vm to start working on kde4 docs
<jjesse> nixternal: i'll ping you when i need help :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> I am rebuilding KDE 4 from SVN right now
<jjesse> sounds like fun, i think....
<nixternal> now that the main part is over with
* nixternal needs food...back in a bit
<jjesse> nixternal: best wiki page for setting up my debian install for kde 4 doc work?
<nixternal> http://techbase.kde.org/Getting_Started/Build/KDE4
<nixternal> jjesse: ^^
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4300 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: Little farther on the LDM documentation
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> morning all
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4301 /trunk/ (28 files in 2 dirs): updating version number in browser homepage
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, morning
<Kamping_Kaiser> misc question all: now the wiki has been relicenced, (and i asume help. as well) does that mean texts there can be included in the doco at will?
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: only the help.ubuntu.com/community has been licensed, but yes, material from there can be included in the system docs, if they have the same licence
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, so the licence change doesnt magically make everything match?
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: not *everything* as in "everything in the whole world".
<mdke> it makes Ubuntu documentation match though, broadly speaking
<Kamping_Kaiser> thats goo denough *grin*. thanks for that
<tonyyarusso> mdke: wiki.u.c still is up the the air though?
<jjesse> x`morning
<fijam> hello
<fijam> Admiral_Chicago, j1mc any comments on my suggestion?
<jjesse> hello
<mdke> tonyyarusso: correct
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4302 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: More on load balancing
<ddelony> Do you have any problems with idiots vandalizing wiki pages?
<sbalneav> I haven't seen any on any of the wiki pages I edit.
<sbalneav> But I'm sure it happens.
<ddelony> I guess messing with open-source software documentation isn't as funny as wikipedia.
<popey> and you have to go through some hoops - ie. get a launchpad account
<popey> which makes it just hard _enough_ to not be worth it
<ddelony> It seems that more open-source projects are using wikis for their documentation.
<ddelony> It's easy to keep the documentation in sync with reality. :-)
<ddelony> The only disadvantage is that people without a working net connection can't read the documentation.
<mdke> we aim to make our best documentation available offline in the Ubuntu system documentation
<mdke> and there are quite a few initiatives to produce snapshots of wikis for offline use
<ddelony> Good idea.
<mdke> I don't know of any perfect one with MoinMoin though; there is a half-finished one
<ubotu> New bug: #135373 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Missing "r" on string ("moe" => "more")" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/135373
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-29
<Kamping_Kaiser> the other disadvantage is the doco matches one of half a dozen realitys
<nixternal> mdke: what a coincidence, we are have 2 Kubuntu Jonathans who keep losing their svn info :D
* nixternal picks on jjesse :p
<jjesse> grin that is funny
<nixternal> haha
<jjesse> nixternal: have some time to help me figure out next steps (ie what i need to check out from svn for kde4?
<nixternal> OK, here are 2 movies to never rent: "Kickin' it Old School" and "Blades of Glory"
<jjesse> i never wanted to watch eitehr
<nixternal> I did, because I typically get a kick out of the actors in both movies...but they were both horribly done
<nixternal> jjesse: you check out techbase?
<jjesse> dang tigers can smoke the new york yankees and lose the next day because to the royals
<nixternal> tigers lost to the royals?
<jjesse> losing 6 0
<nixternal> oh wow
<nixternal> that is bad
<jjesse> i installed everythiing from Getting_Started/Build/KDE4
<jjesse> but haven't checked anything out
<nixternal> ahh, just follow the rest of the instructions...make sure you create a new user (ie. kde-devel), and setup kde-devel's ~/.bashrc to include the example stuff they provided
<nixternal> truthfully, I would probably wait another day or two before doing the checkout stuff
<nixternal> there are some broken libs yet which are a pita to get working
<jjesse> ok i'll bug you w/ problems :)
<nixternal> you can get the qt-copy installed, kdesupport, and whatever else...kdelibs needs a day or two to settle
<mdke> nixternal: I actually thought that it was jjesse writing the email because gmail only shows the author's first name; until I looked at the email address
<soren> Where can I find a pdf version of the 7.04 installation guide?
<soren> In general: Where are the pdf versions of our documentation?
<sbalneav> Morning all
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
* warbler is away: Away to see a man about a horse
* warbler is back (gone 00:01:29)
<Kamping_Kaiser> warbler, can you turn that status message off?
<mdke> soren: we don't generate pdf versions of the documentation, although the installation guide is probably an exception: you can get a pdf for it in the installation-guide package, I think
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-30
<Aethelred> I'd like to propose a change in the doc here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AMD64/FirefoxAndPlugins
<Aethelred> ... to include an alternative.
<Aethelred> For 64-bit users, the existing solution boils down to "There was really no point in using AMD-64, so just regress to 32-bit apps"
<Aethelred> For Browser Plugins, there is a compatability wrapper
<Aethelred> The project is here:  http://gwenole.beauchesne.info/en/projects/nspluginwrapper/
<Aethelred> It's popular enough that there are many entires around the Ubuntu forums recommending it, and also some install scripts being advertised (also in the forums).
<Aethelred> There are debs available.
<Aethelred> I don't know if it's yet a suitable replacement for the existing g solution (regress to 32-bit browsers), but I think it warrants at least a mention in the official doc.
<Aethelred> ...
<Aethelred> righty-ho then.  Cheers.
<jjesse> nixternal: this svn checkout of qt-copy is the slwoest ever
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> I am sitting in javascript class right now fighting sleep
<jjesse> or maybe it just my crappy internet connection
<nixternal> no, qt-copy is 100+mb I think
<nixternal> or right around 80mb
<nixternal> err, 100mb I mean
<jjesse> wow
<jjesse> watching family guy right now... man i love that show
<nixternal> haha, stuey (spelling?) rocks
<nixternal> I haven't watched it in a while
<jjesse> yeah he does
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4303 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: Documented NBD chroots, and moved around format of lts.conf section
<sbalneav> \o/ for docs
<nixternal> you go!
<sbalneav> Hey, any idea on how to build the edubuntu-docs package from the svn?
<LaserJock> shesh
<LaserJock> gimme a minute ;-)
<sbalneav> hehehehehe
<sbalneav> Demanding ***hole, aren't I? :)
<nixternal> make all
<LaserJock> well, I do a svn export first of all
<LaserJock> then I look at the previous edubuntu-docs package
<LaserJock> and see what I took out last time
<LaserJock> then move edubuntu/debian up
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> I just pull everything from Kubuntu, run my magic script to remove .svn and the other files I don't need, dch -i, and rock on
<LaserJock> bah, svn export rocks
<nixternal> can't say that I have ever used it
<nixternal> how does that work?
<LaserJock> it takes out all the .svn stuff
<LaserJock> you go svn export <directory you want to export to>
<nixternal> oh, I thought it did more...that is what my script does
<mdke_> morning all
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4304 ubuntu/ (20 files in 20 dirs): updating pot templates
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4305 ubuntu/hardware/hardware.pot: new pot file for new document
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<j1mc> hi all
<sbalneav> Hello
<j1mc> i was curious - do you think we'll do a test build of all flavors of ubuntu docs for the tribe 6 release?
<j1mc> so that we can iron-out any last minute bugs before string freeze?
<j1mc> tribe 6 is set to be released on 9/6, and string freeze is set for 9/13.
<j1mc> I guess I'll send a note out to the ML about it.  See what people say.
<somerville32> Is the procedure that we wait until the last minute to upload the docs or would it be ok if I uploaded a snap-shot for Xubuntu?
<nixternal> snapshots
<nixternal> that way there translations can start
<nixternal> although, I am upset with the current status of kubuntu-docs translations
<somerville32> Do I need the entire repo to build
<somerville32> I just grabed trunk/xubuntu/
<somerville32> Or does Xubuntu still not build at all?
<nixternal> hrmm, Xubuntu needs an updated makefile...reason I haven't tweaked it is because the xubuntu/ directory is loaded with all kinds of stuff and I don't know what needs to be built and what doesn't need to be built
<nixternal> someone needs to do some spring cleaning on that directory
<j1mc> yes, we need to so spring cleaning on that directory.
<somerville32> I think I need to get my svn passwd reset
<j1mc> nixternal: ^^
<j1mc> should i just email the doc list about what we want removed?
<nixternal> j1mc: are you comfortable with knowing your way around svn yet?
<somerville32> nixternal, What is the status of the bzr migration?
<nixternal> like removing directories/files, exporting, and other stuff
<nixternal> I have no idea on bzr
<nixternal> I tend to hide from it :)
<j1mc> nixternal: not really.  i haven't done much more than svn co and svn diff
<j1mc> if i know the commands, i can of course enter them, though.
<somerville32> svn help
<nixternal> j1mc: see if you can get access to svn so you can break it, and then fix it...although it doesn't really happen...just need to know how to really move around files/directories w/o doubling efforts and breaking branches
<nixternal> very easy though
<j1mc> well, i'm up for membership on tuesday.
<somerville32> basically, svn <unix fs cmd>
<j1mc> somerville32: thx.
<nixternal> svn rm, svn mv, svn export (this is what some of us use when exporting our branches to build a package)
<j1mc> i'm on a windows box now, though.
* nixternal kicks j1mc 
<nixternal> don't ever cuss i this channel again
<j1mc> tunneling through to my home server, which is running ubuntu :)
<nixternal> s/i/in
<nixternal> OK, I am getting ready to head home...tty later
<j1mc> nixternal: would i do an 'svn rm foldername' and then do an svn diff on the whole trunk of xubuntu?
<j1mc> to show that i had removed a folder?
<nixternal> just give me a list of stuff to remove
<j1mc> ok
<j1mc> thanks.
<nixternal> because a diff with rm'ing a dir or file can get very big very quick
<j1mc> yeah
<nixternal> I should setup SVN on my server and hook you up with an account so you can get comfortable messing with stuff
<nixternal> that is all you need truthfully...you are getting the docbook/xml stuff and you are obviously making sure that your patches all validate
<nixternal> anywho, I need to shutdown here and run to my truck which is like 2 miles away from this classromm :)
<somerville32> If you install svn, you can easily setup an svn repo on your computer
<j1mc> nixternal: somerville32 i can just set up svn on my server at home.  thanks for the suggestion.
<j1mc> somerville32: heh.  i just checked out the most recent version of the docs via my home server.
<j1mc> i could've done that a long time ago, and been able to work on docs from wherever i was, using whatever OS i was on, as long as i had access to ssh into my server.
<j1mc> *face palm*
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4306 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: Move more handbook stuff to topic, corrections and additions
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<Lhademmor> Hey people. Is the WikiTeam still active?
<Lhademmor> guess not...
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> It is!
<somerville32> It lives! :)
<somerville32> You can make it better too
<Lhademmor> Cool. I'll see what I can import...
<Lhademmor> Is the gwos.org thing down?
<Lhademmor> Damn, gtg
<nixternal> I wish he didn't think we ran gwos
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-31
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4307 ubuntu/programming/C/programming.xml: Added Geany to list of IDEs
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4308 ubuntu/office/C/office.xml: Improve instructions, updates for gutsy, update statuses, some extra material
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4309 ubuntu/administrative/C/administrative.xml: Updated statuses and section IDs
<jrib> Hi, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BackupYourSystem has a lot of links that don't exist because they are in wiki.ubuntu.com so I'm fixing them.  But https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackupPC looks like it belongs in the h.u.c. wiki.  Is there a document that explains what steps I need to take to move it? Or, do I need to do anything else other than: 1. duplicate the page on h.u.c. and 2. have the page on w.u.c. redirect to the new h.u.c. page?
<LaserJock> so anybody know what the plan is regarding moving to bzr?
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4310 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: Finished splitting up the topics, added a section on nbd-swap
<mdke_> jrib: check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryDocumentation, that should have some info, iirc
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4311 ubuntu/browser-startpage/index-it_IT.html: new italian version - thanks to Milo Casagrande
<jrib> mdke: thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-01
<PhreeStyle-home> hwello
<nixternal> hiya PhreeStyle-home
<PhreeStyle-home> id like to help with documentation, but dont know where to start
<nixternal> which distro are you looking at helping?
<nixternal> I am guessing Kubuntu because you are in kde-docs as well :)
<PhreeStyle-home> well, i thought about it, but I run gnome
<nixternal> Kubuntu docs are pretty much complete for Gutsy right now
<nixternal> ahh, you will want to talk with mdke when he is around (he is in the UK), or Phil Bull who seems to be away right now...have you emailed the docs list expressing your interest?
<PhreeStyle-home> well i did about a month ago, then a bunch of stuff fell in my lap I couldn't do anything until now
<nixternal> ahh, that is always fun :)
<nixternal> get in contact with Phil and check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Tasks
<PhreeStyle-home> I removed myself from the mailing list because I knew I wasn't going to be able to do anything for a while
<PhreeStyle-home> so should I rejoin and start over saying hello?
<nixternal> probably would be best...express your interest in helping the gnome side as well
<PhreeStyle-home> ok I just joined the mailing list again...thanks for the advice
<nixternal> no problem..and welcome! hopefully they can get you rolling with some stuff...it could start to get slow seeing as we are only 2 weeks away from our freeze for Gutsy
<LaserJock> mdke: gone already?
<nixternal> probably close to it
<nixternal> LaserJock: what is up with the packaging guide? are you going to be working on it? need a little help with it? iirc you had someone who was going to work on it
<LaserJock> nixternal: ah, but you're here :-)
<LaserJock> well
<nixternal> not anymore...I just made like a LongPointyStick and poked my way out!
<LaserJock> I've been trying to give it away
* nixternal definitely pokes his way out now
<LaserJock> not sure if it's gonna stick
<LaserJock> nixternal: I was actually gonna ask you about KDE4
<nixternal> oh, whew :)
<LaserJock> I wondered how easy it is to test KDE4 now on Feisty and Gutsy
<nixternal> feisty: we have Beta 1 packages in Riddell's repo at kubuntu.org, Gutsy has Beta 1 in universe and I am currently working on Beta 2 packages (keep that on the downl low)
<nixternal> of course, you can always check it out from the anon kde svn repo and build it yourself
<LaserJock> but does it run?
<nixternal> oh ya
<LaserJock> I know I can get packages, but it seemed kinda involved to get things going
<nixternal> I am starting to switch over to it so I can start working out more kinks
<nixternal> I am doing 50/50 KDE 3 and KDE 4 now
<LaserJock> scary :-)
<LaserJock> I wonder what will happen when gnome goes to 3
<nixternal> it can be...it doesn't crash majorly for me yet
<nixternal> dunno, but I can't wait to see what gnome does
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I think it'll be a key to the endless gnome vs. kde struggle
<LaserJock> KDE's setting the bar
<nixternal> there will always be that struggle though I think...I enjoy the whole kde vs. gnome thing, because it feels to me that each project strives to be the best
<PhreeStyle-home> yea, competition is good for progress
<nixternal> a lot of people are for 1 desktop environment, which I find flat out stupid because it kills competition and eventually leads to a Microsoft type feeling
<LaserJock> I'm for 1 desktop ideally
<LaserJock> but realistically it just doesn't seem to happen
<LaserJock> I'm sick of duplicate projects
<nixternal> it would be impossible...imagine the amount of loss due to something like that...die hard gnome people wouldn't switch if it was kde only, and kde people wouldn't switch if it was gnome only
<LaserJock> and I hate how difficult it is to develop an app that anybody could use
<LaserJock> yeah, I'd like to take the best of both worlds
<LaserJock> but it would just end up being *my* view of it
<LaserJock> I guess anyway
<nixternal> it would be like saying, we only need 1 linux distro...can't afford to get rid of the competition within the free software community
<LaserJock> I think we need 1 linux distro too ;-)
<LaserJock> I just can't stand the wasted effort
<LaserJock> we have a whole lot of crappy software
<LaserJock> rather than focusing on getting good ones
<nixternal> imagine one distro with 2 million developers..it would never work...it would be nothing but power struggles as well
<LaserJock> 2 million developers?
<nixternal> well, with all of the projects/distros out there, there are well over 2 million developers spread around the world
<LaserJock> not distros
<LaserJock> maybe all FLOSS
<LaserJock> I'm all for competition
<LaserJock> but I'd like to see competition between a few good choices
<nixternal> well then how could you be for 1 distro and 1 desktop environment then?
<LaserJock> competition with a dominate distro/DE works
<nixternal> if you think about it, there is competition between the few good choices..there may be thousands of distros, but have 6 users doesn't count :)
<LaserJock> but distro and DE are so fundamental that it really starts effecting things
<nixternal> yup
<LaserJock> I'd love to see all distros move to one package format
<LaserJock> one DE
<LaserJock> and there only be 2-3 main distros
<nixternal> another thing with 1 distro or 1 de, is if I am working on that project, and I have a falling out or what not..then what am I to do?
<LaserJock> that'd cover 90%+ of people
<LaserJock> nixternal: deal with it
<LaserJock> I hate seeing people fork or ditch just because of personal problems
<LaserJock> it's stupid
<nixternal> not always the easiest thing to do
<LaserJock> didn't say it was
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> I agree with you there..but that is like saying no matter how crappy your working environment, deal with it
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> obviously at this point we don't have really crappy DEs
<nixternal> actually, we have quite a few great de's
<LaserJock> but we are allowing them to continue make mistakes because they can say "don't like it, try something else"
<LaserJock> same with distros
<nixternal> and each one fits a specific need to a user...it provides them that choice we like to brag about :)
<LaserJock> "If you don't like Ubuntu, go use something else"
<LaserJock> we should be able to suit the vast majority of people
<nixternal> that is what I tell people...they have that choice, but with one de or one distro, that choice is gone
<LaserJock> my point is, why should they *have* to choose
<nixternal> now it would be, if you don't like our distro, then go use windows or mac
<LaserJock> there should be 1 clear choice
<nixternal> because it is a freedom of course
<LaserJock> bah
<nixternal> would you like to walk into a store and have just 1 tv to choose from?
<LaserJock> freedom is highly overrated
<LaserJock> what is freedom of choice if you get to choose between several bad choices
<LaserJock> I'd take 1 choice if it was good
<nixternal> windows is good :)
<LaserJock> yes, it can be
<LaserJock> choice isn't always what you want
<LaserJock> if I want to install software and I have to figure out and choose between package formats
<LaserJock> that's no good
<nixternal> for me it is, because I actually get to choose what I want, and not what some developers wants me to want
<LaserJock> pfft
<LaserJock> you get what the developer wants, always
<nixternal> true, but I still have a choice between product a and product b, and in distros product 1 to 1,000,000 :)
<LaserJock> I don't know, I just think choice is a crutch that a lot of devs have used to get away with crap
<LaserJock> it's not bad, in and of itself
<nixternal> I will admit that there have been way to many forks with distros of which most were unnecessary
<nixternal> ie. Mepis, PCLinuxOS, VA Linux, Stampede, Mint, Edubuntu, Xubuntu :)
<LaserJock> I would really like to see 1 major DE
<LaserJock> I can't see how the Gnome vs KDE thing is helping users
<nixternal> I wouldn't for a few reasons...1 I don't like Gnome as it stands right now at all...it isn't for me, i can't use it, and there really aren't any features in it that I would want in KDE, and this goes vice-versa with many many gnome users when it comes to KDE
<LaserJock> right, I'm not saying that Gnome or KDE, in their current form, should be that one
<nixternal> I take that back...I do like Tomboy :)
<LaserJock> I just think that it would be smarter for us to combine forces
<LaserJock> and make one DE that works right
<LaserJock> same for email clients, while I'm at it
<nixternal> as long as the client isn't Thundertird or Evilution :)
<PhreeStyle-home> Thunderbird works pretty well for me
<PhreeStyle-home> Evolution sucks for me though
<nixternal> actually, as it stands, Kontact/KMail either...now when we get the bugs worked out with that, then it will change
<nixternal> I don't like anything Mozilla
<LaserJock> Thunderbird is the closet I've seen
<LaserJock> closest
<LaserJock> but I'm using gmail now
<PhreeStyle-home> you don't like firefox?
<nixternal> haha, you seen the closet :)
<nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: nope
<nixternal> I prefer IE 7 over FF
<LaserJock> I don't want to use FF either
<LaserJock> but it's the best I've got
<PhreeStyle-home> what do you use? Konqueror?
<nixternal> Epiphony is good
<nixternal> Konqi yes
<LaserJock> epiphany has some really troublesome "features"
<LaserJock> otherwise it's ok
<LaserJock> knoqi is just weird
<nixternal> ya, but isn't that going to change with the adaptation of webkit? I think I read that somewhere
<LaserJock> it works ok though
<LaserJock> nixternal: what is?
<nixternal> ya, konqi is weird from the beginning..but once you figure it out, it is great
<nixternal> Ephiphony
<LaserJock> oh, maybe
<LaserJock> my issues are with the UI
<LaserJock> I couldn't really care less about the rendering engine
<nixternal> I like the minimalistic ui of it
<LaserJock> I don't know, I'm just afraid I'm coming to think that all FLOSS sucks
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> it's just community based so it's more fun
<nixternal> I have been using it for over 10 years now, so I am more used to it than any other I guess
<LaserJock> I've been using Linux solid for 5 years now
<LaserJock> and almost every week I swear I'm gonna go back to Windows
<nixternal> see, you can never go back now
<LaserJock> then I reboot Windows and go ewww
<LaserJock> but OS X ... that's a touch one
<LaserJock> I really like OS X
<LaserJock> s/touch/tough/
<nixternal> I have gone back to windows one time for 2 years..and that was only because I got into gaming for a bit and was sick of the idiots in debian and slackware at the time
<LaserJock> I use it for taxes
<nixternal> man, I have tried my hardest to get used to OS X and have never been successful
<LaserJock> and sometimes for MS Office
<LaserJock> I'm quite productive with OS X
<LaserJock> it's like the best of all worlds
<nixternal> MS Office I will admit is the greatest thing Microsoft has ever created, and there will never be an office suite that powerful
<LaserJock> it's got the *nix thing going
<LaserJock> but it's not half-bakes like Linux :-)
<PhreeStyle-home> yea they need to make a DE like osx
<LaserJock> s/bakes/baked/
<LaserJock> well, it's not really the DE I like
<nixternal> heh, first thing I did with my OS X install I had for a few months was install KDE on it
<nixternal> I can't stand the OS X DE at all
<LaserJock> it just work, never crashes
<nixternal> I will definitely give you that
<LaserJock> it looks professional
<LaserJock> has lots of professional software
<PhreeStyle-home> that's my problem with KDE...applications only open half the time
<LaserJock> it's like Linux, but it works
<nixternal> I have never had any major issues with Linux, until I started messing with Ubuntu development releases
<LaserJock> I can just *use* OS X, I don't have to fight with it
<LaserJock> bah, I've had lots of problems with Linux
<nixternal> I remember running Debian Sid and Slackware development releases and never had any major issues
<LaserJock> they went and screwed around with my Feisty in the last few days :(
<LaserJock> now I can't logout
<nixternal> kernel?
<LaserJock> I have to Ctrl-Backspace and relogin, then logout/hibernate
<PhreeStyle-home> I had a problem with something like that recently...anytime i would log out or shut down or restart, the machine would just freeze
<LaserJock> everything works fine
<LaserJock> it just stays on the logout screen
<PhreeStyle-home> i filed a bug, but didn't hear anything about it
<LaserJock> and I can't get it to go away
<LaserJock> but that's my thing
<LaserJock> why should I have to file a bug
<PhreeStyle-home> see, i can't even do that...if I hit Ctrl+Backspace it freezes too
<LaserJock> this is a stable release for goodness sakes
<PhreeStyle-home> well im running Gusty, so I understand stuff happens
<LaserJock> and at work our linux boxes are getting hacked into more often than Windows and OS X
<PhreeStyle-home> a stable release with that problem is bad news
<LaserJock> I'm starting to wonder if Linux is really any good outside the community and openness
<PhreeStyle-home> well, at my work, i run Dapper with a jabber, apache server
<PhreeStyle-home> I've never had a problem with it once I got it running
<PhreeStyle-home> it's been running 6 months solid...I almost never have to touch it
<nixternal> you know, every place I have ever worked, we never had a server hacked, whether it was windows, linux, hp-ux, solaris...
<LaserJock> we have probably at least 1/year in my department
<LaserJock> always linux
<LaserJock> the uni IT guys think Linux is a joke for security
<nixternal> sounds like the sys admin isn't doing his/her job
<LaserJock> we don't have sys admins
<PhreeStyle-home> the funny thing is the Dapper server is public facing and has less problems than the internal Windows servers
<LaserJock> I'm constantly having to fix my Feisty laptop
<PhreeStyle-home> yea, they say that the only reason a linux server gets hacked is because it wasn't locked down right
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> the problem is that nobody seems to lock them down right
<PhreeStyle-home> well, I admit they don't really give you a how-to on securing your box for every situation. I've found quite a few scripts that do wonders for security
<LaserJock> anyway, I'm just burned-out and venting
<LaserJock> I didn't mean to take over the channel
<PhreeStyle-home> my new favorite program DenyHosts for SSH...it's great
<PhreeStyle-home> I had no idea how many IP addresses were trying to brute force my ssh server until I installed that
<LaserJock> well, my department has static IPs, no firewall, and in one of the labs all the root passwords are the same :-)
<PhreeStyle-home> OMG
<Flannel> PhreeStyle-home: I just changed my port, that solved it
<nixternal> LaserJock: you sound exactly how I did in 2000...I mean dead on exact..that was the reason I took a break before
<PhreeStyle-home> well, i did that once, but there are scanners that do multiple ports looking for SSH
<LaserJock> nothing is more dangerous than Linux in the hands of somebody who doesn't know how to secure it
<PhreeStyle-home> very true
<PhreeStyle-home> though it's not too hard now...much easier than it used to be...now, all I have to do is install firestarter and denyhosts and I'm good to go
<LaserJock> we just have students that discover the joys of ssh
<LaserJock> then leave their computer open to the world
<PhreeStyle-home> I've even had to use firestarter as the corporate firewall when our cisco firewall crapped the bed and it seemed to work better than the cisco box
<LaserJock> so the can login from home
<PhreeStyle-home> yea thats bad
<LaserJock> and there isn't any computing education at all
<LaserJock> so people just get hacked, and then learn
<LaserJock> you hope that it doesn't spread too far
<PhreeStyle-home> eww...you guys should really firewall ssh from the outside
<LaserJock> well, the line from IT is "meh, it happens, format and reinstall"
<PhreeStyle-home> firewall in general really
<PhreeStyle-home> I guess that's the beauty of it...if it were a windows machine you'd spend a better part of the day putting it back online
<LaserJock> I still wish we had a DE that worked right :-)
<LaserJock> but they are pretty good, admittedly
<LaserJock> if they just weren't so buggy
<PhreeStyle-home> yea me too....for now, gnome is my choice...for my needs...but really I think they all have a long way to go before they are considered workplace-ready
<LaserJock> I wish it were home-ready
<LaserJock> it's great for my work
<PhreeStyle-home> a home user can get over the quirks, but not a business user
<LaserJock> heh, I'm the total opposite :-)
<LaserJock> at work I can mess around with it and make sure things work
<LaserJock> at home it's not just me using the computer, I gotta make sure it works
<LaserJock> like I lost printing the other day
<LaserJock> that did not make the wife happy
<PhreeStyle-home> lol, that sucks
<LaserJock> now I gotta wait for somebody to fix it
<LaserJock> well, I gotta file a bug, wait a few months, then maybe somebody will mark it invalid because it's too old ;-)
<PhreeStyle-home> admittedly, work and home things are buggy...very bugg7y
<PhreeStyle-home> lol, i know
<PhreeStyle-home> I don't think any of the 20 or so bugs I've submitted to any of the projects have actually gone anywhere
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder how many bugs I've reported
<LaserJock> 55 it seems
<PhreeStyle-home> lol, that's crazy
<PhreeStyle-home> i can totally see that though
<LaserJock> well, most of the bugs are packaging process bugs
<LaserJock> requesting syncs and stuff
<PhreeStyle-home> and even though there are alot of bugs i like to think that one day they will get better
<LaserJock> way to be positive :-)
<PhreeStyle-home> i try :)
<LaserJock> good
<LaserJock> stay positive, it keeps you healthy
<PhreeStyle-home> very true
<nixternal> ya, less hairloss or gray hair :)
<PhreeStyle-home> and i dont need anymore of either one
<LaserJock> yeah, I've lost so much hair since starting Ubuntu development :/
<PhreeStyle-home> what do you develop?
<LaserJock> I'm a Core Developer, I mostly work on Edubuntu now
<nixternal> and I can attest to his hairloss ;p
<nixternal> although, I am losing mine now
<LaserJock> I'm also a doc team member
<PhreeStyle-home> lol
<LaserJock> amongst some other things that I need to get rid of
<nixternal> he is the trinity, that is what he is
<PhreeStyle-home> well, I've been looking to learn how to develop in linux...i only do c# on windows right now, but I want to get into in Ubuntu now too
<nixternal> Ubuntu uses that c# garbage :)
* nixternal shouldn't talk, KDE is using it now
<LaserJock> nixternal: I'm only a  member of the trinity, not the whole thing ;-)
<PhreeStyle-home> wow, didn't know that
<LaserJock> we have lots of C# really
<nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: Mono is imbread within Gnome, and it is in Strigi for KDE
<LaserJock> fspot, tomboy, banshee
<PhreeStyle-home> what is the core written in, C?
<nixternal> for gnome yes
<LaserJock> anything
<LaserJock> C/C++ python perl
<LaserJock> that covers most of it I think
<LaserJock> ruby's getting pretty popular too
<PhreeStyle-home> wow...I learned the basic python language, but gui programming for it is quite fuzzy
<LaserJock> especially in KDE it seems to me
<PhreeStyle-home> like i don't know which one to choose...and I hate the look of tk
<LaserJock> for the most part nobody cares what you write in as long as it works and it gets done
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: pygtk is the way to go
<PhreeStyle-home> well i looked into wxPython, but its complicated
<PhreeStyle-home> why pygtk?
<PhreeStyle-home> haven't heard alot about it other than not many use it (supposedly)
<LaserJock> pfft
<LaserJock> most stuff GUI stuff written for Ubuntu is in pygtk
<PhreeStyle-home> really?...see I asked what ubuntu python stuff was written in, but no one replied to the post
<LaserJock> most people I know use pygtk or pyqt
<PhreeStyle-home> I'll have to look into that then
<PhreeStyle-home> what's your opinion on java?
<LaserJock> hmm
* nixternal likes java
<LaserJock> I don't have a problem with the language really
<LaserJock> it just sucks because we can't put most Java apps in Ubuntu
<nixternal> it is slow, just like python...but it is good for cross platform type of stuff
<nixternal> ya, the whole licensing thing sucks
<PhreeStyle-home> until they finish open sourceing it right?
<nixternal> correct
<LaserJock> so I think it's kinda misleading to claim an app is open source if it's written in Java :-)
<PhreeStyle-home> true
<PhreeStyle-home> well, i guess it's open source, just not open source written in an open language
<LaserJock> but yeah, I think when they finish open sourceing it there will be a big explosion of Java apps
<PhreeStyle-home> the explosion is already starting
<PhreeStyle-home> I see java apps for everything
<LaserJock> I just never got into it because I always saw it as a useful thing
<LaserJock> I wasn't doing web or application development
<LaserJock> yes, I see java apps everywhere
<LaserJock> but not installed by default
<LaserJock> or easy to get at
<LaserJock> necessarily
<PhreeStyle-home> how long you think it will take before it's open sourced?
<nixternal> supposedly by the end of this year is what I heard..but take that with a grain of salt
<PhreeStyle-home> yea, that seems a bit soon
<LaserJock> I suppose it's a lot of work
<LaserJock> I'm not sure why exactly
<PhreeStyle-home> i would think so...a language like that generic enough to run on so many platforms...gotta be alot of cide
<PhreeStyle-home> code*
<nixternal> ya, if you want to open source it with the GPL, just apply the language...but they said something about some of the infrastructure they want to not make open source or some garbage
<LaserJock> yeah, but why would they have to rewrite it?
<LaserJock> just release the code :-)
<nixternal> amen!
<PhreeStyle-home> well, i think they have to go through it all and make sure they are not giving out any trade secrets or something
<LaserJock> I imagine the delay is them getting out all the stuff that's either patent infringement/illegal or they don't want to open source parts of it
<LaserJock> oh well, it'll come
<LaserJock> Edubuntu will jump on it for sure when it does
<PhreeStyle-home> its by far one of the most taught languages now from what I've seen
<PhreeStyle-home> between it and C#
<LaserJock> I wouldn't know too much
<PhreeStyle-home> it's almost impossible to get a C/C++ class
<LaserJock> really?
<PhreeStyle-home> I tried finding one and couldn't
<LaserJock> I know in my field Java is popular because it's like the non-programmer language
<PhreeStyle-home> at least one from a place with a reputation
<LaserJock> although my boss will only write in Fortran and C
<PhreeStyle-home> yea i wasn't around for fortran :)
<LaserJock> around?
<PhreeStyle-home> when it was popular...i missed that bus
<LaserJock> lots of people write Fortran 77 all the time
<LaserJock> depends on the field
<LaserJock> in the sciences it's still very dominante
<PhreeStyle-home> didn't know that...i figured it was dying since I haven't heard much from it
<LaserJock> nah, we're just not "real" programmers ;-)
<PhreeStyle-home> :)
<LaserJock> NASA uses a lot of fortran, for instance
<LaserJock> and the weather people
<PhreeStyle-home> NASA uses alot of everything
<LaserJock> any time you need serious number crunching
<PhreeStyle-home> for every language, is see "NASA uses it"
<LaserJock> Fortan still beats C
<LaserJock> python is creeping in though
<PhreeStyle-home> I think my boss did Fortran back in the day
<PhreeStyle-home> python is kinda slow though from what I hear...along side java
<LaserJock> well, the key is you do all the speed-sensitive stuff in fortran and glue it all together with python
<LaserJock> there are really good python libraries for science written mostly in Fortran
<nixternal> I am hopefully going to take some more fortran classes next semester
<nixternal> fortran and c++ for scientist
<LaserJock> there's not a ton to it
<PhreeStyle-home> well, my thought for writting my first linux app was to make a front end for mounting cifs shares
<LaserJock> just use lots of GOTO statements ;-)
<nixternal> haha right
<nixternal> I learned Fortran in high school many years ago
<LaserJock> I'm learning C++ for a gnome app
<LaserJock> but I'm really not a programmer
<LaserJock> I'm really realizing that
<nixternal> hehe, I feel you there
<PhreeStyle-home> you're a core dev though, right? how are you not a programmer?
<LaserJock> I can write some code, and it's textbook
<LaserJock> then I get somebody like sbalneav and he hacks it apart
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: why would I need to be?
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> I'm a chemist
<LaserJock> I can barely make a shell script compared to a real programmer
<PhreeStyle-home> oh...yea I know nothing about chemistry...slept through that day in science class
<LaserJock> but being an Ubuntu developer has gotten me more into application development
<PhreeStyle-home> well if you're a Ubuntu dev, what do you do exactly?
<LaserJock> I package stuff, fix bugs, write documentation, whatever needs to be done
<LaserJock> a lot of it has been community development too, training people
<nixternal> heh, you do way more than that... ie. blueprints, gsoc mentor...those ring a bell?
<LaserJock> well, I do what I can
<nixternal> and then some
<LaserJock> none of it's that special
<nixternal> I do nothing but bother people, and somehow I made my membership
<PhreeStyle-home> I wanna learn how to fix bugs eventually because I find them all the time and I feel like posting them doesn't do any good
<nixternal> I will never understand that :)
<LaserJock> pfft
<LaserJock> you do a lot nixternal
<LaserJock> I wouldn't say bother people really
<LaserJock> sometimes quite enthusiastic
<LaserJock> but not a bother ;-)
<nixternal> I don't do as much as I would like
<nixternal> however, it seems I have been tasked with the Edubuntu KDE stuff now
<LaserJock> yep, mwuahaha
<nixternal> was that you or ogra's idea?
<LaserJock> Riddell's I think
<nixternal> hrmm, he pointed the finger at you two...I see how it is :)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> maybe it was kinda fuzzy
<LaserJock> ;-)
<LaserJock> strength in numbers
<nixternal> I told Anne Marie from KDE Edu about Edubuntu doing that, and once she is done with her holiday, don't be surprised if she shows up
<LaserJock> good
<LaserJock> she's great
<nixternal> ya, she was whicked excited
<LaserJock> she didn't even kill me about gallium
<nixternal> heck ya she is..you want to talk about someone who does it all
<nixternal> I met her through KOffice 2..and then she is like all KDE Edu, and she does coding and documentation
<LaserJock> I think KDE Edu would be the one area of KDE that might make me jump sides ;-)
<nixternal> man, I am literally at a roadblock right now with these beta 2 packages
<PhreeStyle-home> how did you guys get started coding and fixing bugs...did you start by writing documentation, or what?
<nixternal> heh, I tried to get my daughter to jump sides and she wasn't up for it just yet
<nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: actually that is how I started in 1995...I wrote a couple of docs for the linux documentation project
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: I started working on Ubuntu because a chemistry app I wanted to use had a bit of a bug
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: I hopped online to see if I could get it fixed, and got sucked into the drug that is Ubuntu instead
<nixternal> I was using slackware at the time because one of the IT people on the military base I was stationed at was a slackdev, so he got me into that project..then I did more coding than documentation, but in 98, I gave up coding fully for networking and hardware
<nixternal> only the past year have I gotten interested in it again...and now I am trying to knock the rust off
<nixternal> ya, I was sucked in to Ubuntu big time by Riddell, Hobbsee and imbrandon
<PhreeStyle-home> so how do you get the source code, modify it, test and package it into a patch
<LaserJock> I think we're about it for "techie"/dev guys in the doc team though, except sbalneav I guess
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: well, that's a good question
<nixternal> I think burger could dev if he wanted to...he obviously knows a lot about the dev side
<LaserJock> he's a marketing guy
<LaserJock> ;-)
<LaserJock> they don't count
<nixternal> so am I
<nixternal> oh, now you are in trouble!
<LaserJock> bah
<nixternal> but I don't do the Ubuntu marketing stuff anymore..it reminds me to much of a cest pool
<nixternal> I think Ubuntu may have been the reason that I didn't get the Red Hat job
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I've thought of moving to North Carolina
<PhreeStyle-home> i gre up there
<LaserJock> I wonder if I could get a job a RH
<LaserJock> I just don't know that they'd take it well if I used Ubuntu at work
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> LaserJock: they won't let you use Ubuntu at work
<LaserJock> but actually I don't think I'd like to work for a computer company
<nixternal> you have to use their product...and you know me, I am not all about using what you want me too :)
<LaserJock> I think maybe I'll just stick to Chemistry
<LaserJock> yep, that's you, gotta be a rebel
<nixternal> muhehe
<PhreeStyle-home> hey LaserJock, you know a good link to the whole coding, testing and patching stuff?
<nixternal> oh I bet he does :)
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: well, since you asked, you may be interested in the Ubuntu Pakcaging Guide
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> I knew it was coming
<LaserJock> well, duh
<LaserJock> ;-)
<PhreeStyle-home> is there some joke about the packaging guide or something
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: what are you running right now?
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: I wrote it
<nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: I also recommend the Debian Maintainer's Guide, the Debian Developers Handbook, and Debian Policy to go along with it
<PhreeStyle-home> Ubuntu Gusty
<nixternal> I have printed them all out into a neat little binder
<PhreeStyle-home> you write it...then it must be good :)
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: open up the Gnome help
<PhreeStyle-home> l
<PhreeStyle-home> k
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: far from it, I'm sure you could improve it
<LaserJock> hmm, let me think
<PhreeStyle-home> what do I look for in the help
<LaserJock> actually do dpkg -l | grep packaging-guide
<LaserJock> in a terminal first
<nixternal> damn, my granny is in the hospital again
<LaserJock> I can't remember if it's installed by default or not, I think maybe not
<LaserJock> nixternal: yeah? not good?
<PhreeStyle-home> dpkg didnt return anything
<nixternal> dunno...my mom's sister is great at exagerating things..so my mom and dad just left for Michigan
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: ok, install it first then
<nixternal> my granny is 80 something, wears oxygen, and drives a 2005 mustang gt...you knock her down, but she always gets right back up
<nixternal> she is a crazy polish woman
<PhreeStyle-home> lol, gnome help crashed
<nixternal> haha, I think that is a known bug right now actually
<nixternal> at least I have heard others say the same thing recently
<PhreeStyle-home> well i installed it, and did a search for packaging guide and didn't return anythinfg
<LaserJock> hmm
<PhreeStyle-home> i found a version of it online
<LaserJock> oh sorry, was afk for a sec
<nixternal> how does mcd's sound for dinner? :)
<LaserJock> ugg
<PhreeStyle-home> unhealthy...i can hear your kidneys screaming from here
<nixternal> I have no strength man
<LaserJock> pizza!
<PhreeStyle-home> hmmm....pizza
<LaserJock> or at least Wendy's
<nixternal> I have been switching back and forth from the vegetarian diet, and I just can't do it
<nixternal> man, I love mcd's cheeseburgers and fries
<LaserJock> I can't do vegetarian yet
<PhreeStyle-home> me too but its just so bad for you
<LaserJock> I'm too cheap
<PhreeStyle-home> what's worse is they are building a new mcd's down the street from me
<LaserJock> Taco Bell?
<nixternal> LaserJock: I ended up growing most of mine...but food wise, money is no object really...I really wanted to try it, but meat yells at me everytime I am near
<nixternal> I snuck in toxic hell yesterday for lunch w/o my gf finding out
<LaserJock> lol
<nixternal> man, she is going to hate me for this...
<nixternal> my dad, the other night he is like, you feel like going out for a steak?
<nixternal> I said no, and he called me names :(
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> last night I had a big burger and some ribs and part of another burger
<LaserJock> and 2 loads of fries
<nixternal> omg
<LaserJock> I could stand to lose some weight
<nixternal> so could I
<PhreeStyle-home> diddo
<LaserJock> I'm just too cheap
<LaserJock> I've got no money for healthy food
<nixternal> I did the whole insane amount of carbs and protien diet trying to get up to 235 lbs solid
<nixternal> I am at 235, but I am not solid
<LaserJock> I'm on the "OMG I hope I'm not diabetic" diet ;-)
<nixternal> I still go to the gym and lift heavy every morning, but still...I wanted to cut a little fat, and the vegies were perfect
<nixternal> hahaha, so is my whole family
<nixternal> heck, my mom is diabetic, and you would never know
<LaserJock> pretty much my whole family is
<LaserJock> I'm roughly ~250 lbs and I'm about the lightest guy in my family
<nixternal> i figure, if I am going to die, I might as well be happy with a 30oz rare steak sticking out the side of my face
<nixternal> OK, better stop, because I know there are vegans and vegetarians that can be offended by that
<nixternal> my gf included
<LaserJock> s/steak/bacon cheeseburger/
<LaserJock> I dislike steak
<LaserJock> but hamburger I can't live without
<nixternal> OK, being a vegetarian takes sushi off the menu as well..and man that is my favorite
<LaserJock> ... yuck
<nixternal> omg...my mouth is watering
<nixternal> tomorrow, sushi and sapporo
<nixternal> a lil hot saki for a treat :)
<LaserJock> burger, potato, cheese and bread
<LaserJock> that's what I live on
<nixternal> I have been good man...I went 2 months eating fairly healthy
<nixternal> I have gotten on a huge real fruit smoothing trip here lately as well
<nixternal> I have spent like $100 just to make all natural smoothies this month
<nixternal> that's insane
<LaserJock> yeah, it is
<LaserJock> I'm trying a water diet ;-)
<nixternal> I can't drink water..so I have substitued it with green tea
<LaserJock> get off the soda and drink more water
<nixternal> I don't drink soda
<nixternal> and i only drink beer on occassion
<nixternal> drink tequila on occassion as well :)
<LaserJock> my dad worked for the guy that owned the Pespi distributor in our state
<LaserJock> I grew up on cases and cases of free Pepsi
<nixternal> heh, same here..we it was free for me, mom and dad bought it by the boatload
<LaserJock> but my teeth are rotting out of my head
<nixternal> I was always a Dr. Pepper type of guy
<LaserJock> wow, we are a positive bunch tonight :-)
<nixternal> who needs teeth? you seen how nice false teeth are? heck, when you want to do bad things, rip em out and go for it :p
<LaserJock> ...
<nixternal> definitely a positive bunch tonight...thank god mdke is sleeping :)
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> sometimes it's nice to be on US time zones
<nixternal> I can already picture his first comment when he wakes up about scrollback :)
<nixternal> OK, I need food :) bbiab
<LaserJock> I already had my pizza
<PhreeStyle-home> oh, i forgot to ask...i sent a hello into the mailing list. Do I have to wait for someone in particular to answer?
<LaserJock> I don't think so
<LaserJock> welcome to Ubuntu Doc Team :-)
<PhreeStyle-home> lol, thanks
<PhreeStyle-home> im just hoping my emails are getting through
<LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: what's the name?
<PhreeStyle-home> Ross Peoples <ubuntu.ross.peoples@gmail.com> with the subject of Hello...again
<LaserJock> yes, I think it did come through
<PhreeStyle-home> oh, good
<mpt> mdke, you're famous
<mpt> in page 43 of Linux Format
<tonyyarusso> Grrrrrrrrr
<tonyyarusso> Mailman is yelling at me from sending from different accounts :S
<mdke> mpt: what's it about?
<mpt> mdke, a brief blurb on "Notable figures in the Ubuntu community" or something
<mdke> mpt: :)
<mpt> http://ask.metafilter.com/70526/
<mpt> - someone looking for an open source software project that they can produce a tutorial for
<oldmanstan> hey j1mc i got a question, links like <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:office">
<oldmanstan> how do i get those to point to the xubuntu docs, not the ubuntu ones
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-02
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: mantha * r4312 edubuntu/handbook/C/introduction.xml: applied proof-reading patch from Matt Oquist for Handbook intro
<mpt> http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/linux/seeing/pointer/enlarging/gnome.shtml
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4313 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: added section on dhcp
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-25
<glade88> 'lo mdke
<mdke> hi glade88
<mdke> so, as I was saying, you can jump straight into the wiki and start contributing
<glade88> okay.. that would be good
<mdke> the key is to read the WikiGuide pages and to ensure that material which you add is integrated with any existing material on the wiki
<glade88> what exactly should I be adding to the forums wiki? tutoriials and tips?
<mdke> glade88: no, there is no "forums wiki". That page I showed you is about how to integrate useful material from the forum into the wiki
<glade88> ok.. I just read the WIkiguide :)
<mdke> glade88: read the forum page carefully and it should be clear how to do that
<mdke> glade88: ask any questions here or on the mailing list. Sometimes it will be a few hours before you get a response, but be patient :)
<glade88> right.. ty.. I'll hand aroung at the channel. I'll start working. thanks again
<mdke> glade88: cool. And read the WikiGuide page carefully, it can take a little bit of time but is worth it
<glade88> ya.. I will..
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-26
<mdke> morning all
<Atamira> evening
<Kamping_Kaiser> sommer, thanks, i'll have to do a checkout and read it up.
<Kamping_Kaiser> 19:46:25 kgoetz@leia:~$ bzr branch -v lp:ubuntu-doc
<Kamping_Kaiser> Server is too old for streaming pull, reconnecting.  (Upgrade the server to Bazaar 1.2 to avoid this)
<Kamping_Kaiser> is this expected?
<Kamping_Kaiser> its also "hung" now, ~1/3rd of the way through stage 0
<Kamping_Kaiser> nm. got it eventually
<tpfennig> hi all
<mdke> hi tpfennig
<wallan> hey tpfennig
<tpfennig> hm your wiki is a bit stripped down.... missing more actions
<wallan> tpfennig: is there anything in particular that you're missing?
<tpfennig> well display raw syntax ;)
<tpfennig> but got it anyway
<wallan> it's in there,  in the more actions drop down box, isn't it?
<tpfennig> oh
<tpfennig> blind me
<tpfennig> lol
<tpfennig> it is
<wallan> he he!
<tpfennig> wallan: your wikis categories seem ok but wiki.ubuntu.com did not fix their categories, yet like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryAccessibility
 * tpfennig tries to find somebody who feels responsible for this issue
<wallan> tpfennig: i'm not really sure what's happening with categories, i'm afraid!
<tpfennig> I do, technically. ;)
<tpfennig> its nothing more than a search
<tpfennig> it searches for a keyword
<tpfennig> like CategoryAccessibility
<tpfennig> on other pages
<tpfennig> and lists those
<wallan> sure, not sure what state the categories are in though - some get used A LOT... not sure why CategoryAccessibility is empty though
<mdke> looks like those categories got broken during the wiki upgrade
<tpfennig> yeah
<tpfennig> syntax changed
<tpfennig> before if you had FullSearche empty int took the category name
<tpfennig> Ive seen this before in my wikis
<tpfennig> I use moin too a lot
<tpfennig> so thats not the fault of the upgrade - or better "not your fault"
 * tpfennig also wonders why this is is tagged as a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AmitKucheria/IntrepidLpiaKernelMaintenance
<tpfennig> (has CategoryCategory at bottom)
<tpfennig> wgat I suggest is to use <<FullSearchCached(@PAGE@)>>
<tpfennig> when editing the categories there
<tpfennig> the caching helps reducing the load
<tpfennig> It sure has the disadvantage that not every new page will pop up immediately as part of a category, but maybe thats not so bad.
<tpfennig> as I see the wiki appears quite slow in saving a page when editing.
<tpfennig> so i guess cpu is rather busy anyway
<mdke> I'll report the issue
<tpfennig> oh
<tpfennig> mdke: I just did
<tpfennig> https://bugs.launchpad.net/moinmoin/+bug/261526
<tpfennig> havent seen your message
 * shahriar86 is away: Gone away for now.
 * shahriar_away is back.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-28
<MagicFab> Hi there, requesting reverting of a deleted wiki page to its previous version
<MagicFab> somehow someone erased it probably by mistake
<MagicFab> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/elsalvador/ugb?action=info
<MagicFab> if possible revert to versio 10 ? Thank you.
<MagicFab> "someone" = philwyett
<MagicFab> oh apparently I have right to do it myself :) nevermind
<tuxxy__> Hi, I am interested in compiling a wiki page for my 64-bit user group based on the ubuntu.com forums, would this be possible and how would I go about this
<tuxxy__> anyone here
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-29
<mdke> morning all
<jpds> Morning.
<mib_04cywaog> i want compile gcc 2.95.3 but i cant compile on ubuntu 6.10, wich ubuntu work?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-31
<mdke> morning all
<arkara> hello
<arkara> i want to join the documantation team.
<arkara> how is this possible
<arkara> ?
 * jpds sighs.
<mdke> mmm
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-24
<starcraftman>  /back
<starcraftman> my bad.
<lukjad007> Heh
<Flare183> How do I make a wiki redirect to another wiki page?
<Flare183> wiki page*
<Flare183> Like, I want to create the page, "JesseRichardson" to "Richardson183". How would I do that?
<Rocket2DMn> Flare183, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnProcessingInstructions
<Flare183> Rocket2DMn: Ahh, Thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-25
<j1mc> hi all
<starcraftman> hello j1mc
<j1mc> hi starcraftman
<Rocket2DMn> hi there
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: howdy
<Rocket2DMn> hows life
<j1mc> it's not too bad.  you?
<Rocket2DMn> good good j1mc , thanks
<binarymutant> can I redirect on the ubuntu wiki?
<mdke> binarymutant: yes, see HelpOnProcessingInstructions
<binarymutant> mdke, thank you so much :D
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-28
<Rocket2DMn> lol mdke , you fixed a bug 5x over :)
<ubot4> Rocket2DMn: Bug 5 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/5 is private
<Rocket2DMn> ya da man!
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: well, strictly speaking, I opened it 5 times by accident :p
<mdke> but it has been fixed in all the version on help.u.c anyway
<Rocket2DMn> i know mdke , im just pickin on you
<mdke> I know you were just kidding
<Rocket2DMn> while youre here, id like to run a question by you
<Rocket2DMn> there are a ton of Mythbuntu pages on the community docs, which are basically all for unsupported versions i believe
<Rocket2DMn> do you know if they keep their documentation on their own website know?  IIRC, that is what superm told me when i spoke to him last year
<Rocket2DMn> errr, MythTV i mean
<Rocket2DMn> same thing i believe
<mdke> the mythbuntu website seems to point at http://help.ubuntu.com/community/MythTV
<mdke> which is what you're talking about, so I guess the answer is that they don't have their own docs
<mdke> they have an installation guide, but that seems to be about it from a quick review
<mdke> but you'd have to contact them for more info
<Rocket2DMn> alright, they organized pages in such a way that it is nearly impossible to track what page is referenced where b/c of a whole messy tree of Includes
<Rocket2DMn> i'll contact Mario again sometime and see which pages he thinks we can get rid of.  I'd like to be able to just wipe out whole unsupported sections if possible, but he must know that area of the wiki better than anyone else
<Rocket2DMn> I don't want to risk deleting used pages though
<mdke> I think so
<mdke> that area is a total mess, it is on our task list I believe
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, it's been on my radar for the better part of a year
<Rocket2DMn> alright, thanks for the feedback
<mdke> sorry I couldn't help more
<Rocket2DMn> not a problem
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-29
<Madpilot> interesting edit war brewing in the help wiki
<starcraftman> Madpilot: huh? Where?
<Madpilot> RootSudo
<Madpilot> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo?action=diff&rev1=123&rev2=124
<Madpilot> latest ^
<Madpilot> that's a re-instatement, was added then reverted a while ago
<Madpilot> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo?action=info
<starcraftman> Madpilot: oh not that again. ><
<Madpilot> ironically, one of the few wiki pages I still maintain a watch on
<Madpilot> ya. ardchoille is a nick I'm pretty sure I've seen on IRC
<starcraftman> wouldn't know, been doing most of my work on the backup pages.
<Madpilot> I'm only a docteam member by courtesy these days. :)
<Madpilot> damn, I wish moinmoin had discussion pages of some sort, wikimedia-style. Makes this sort of thing easier.
<starcraftman> Madpilot: I just keep to the messy noncontroversial pages :).
<Madpilot> there's still enough of those to go around
<starcraftman> Madpilot: night, I'm off.
<Madpilot> mdke, when you're up - might want to check into the above entertainment on the wiki...
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke, some guy keeps removing the information on the RootSudo wiki page about enabling the root account
<Rocket2DMn> While I agree that such info shouldn' be there, I think the doc team (and you) decided we should leave it there
<Rocket2DMn> kees and I both reverted the page, and I left a note to that effect, but he still changed it back
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I just spoke with kees, I guess you already talked to him.  I'll let you guys do your thing :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes Madpilot pointed it out a bit earlier and I pinged kees - he will contact the guy
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, kees said he emailed the user from LP
<mdke> fne
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-30
<binarymutant> how can I attach an image to a wiki page?
<binarymutant> I know {{atachment: }} but how do I upload the image to attach?
<starcraftman> binarymutant: click attach in the edit pane, that redirects ya to a list of attachments for the page. Isn't there an upload box somewhere on there. I'm not on wiki atm to give exact.
<binarymutant> starcraftman, I don't see that button/option :(
<starcraftman> binarymutant: moment, I go look
<starcraftman> binarymutant: you dont see attachments on the edit pane, or the File to upload on the redirected page?
<starcraftman> Be sure your logged in...
<starcraftman> binarymutant: we are talking about https://help.ubuntu.com/community pages yes?
<binarymutant> ah the one i'm on is edubuntu
<binarymutant> http://i27.tinypic.com/2wf1lq9.jpg http://i30.tinypic.com/2nvxoqt.jpg am I just blind?
<binarymutant> oh is it disabled on the edubuntu wiki?
<starcraftman> binarymutant: nope, your editting a page, its a separate thing, cancel or apply your edit then see the bar ya clicked edit on, to the right is a button says attachements
<binarymutant> :( http://i30.tinypic.com/2nvxoqt.jpg I still don't see it
<binarymutant> even in the dropdown box
<binarymutant> lol sorry, I found it
<binarymutant> dropdown box => load
<binarymutant> starcraftman, thanks for the help :D
<starcraftman> binarymutant: no problem :)
<Madpilot> http://ardchoille42.blogspot.com/2009/08/canonical-advocates-insecure-practices.html
<Madpilot> attempt by our huc/c edit-war starter to justify his edit-war antics
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-31
<costales> Hi! I have a problem with my wiki page. Who could I help me, please?
<costales> my wiki page is gone: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/costales?action=info
<costales> and I can't revert to rev. 5621 :(
<Phantomas> Hello, we have translated a big part of ubuntu-docs, but I want to make a question especially for server guide: if we submit the PO files, will the translated text be available through http://help.ubuntu.com/ ?
<Phantomas> I am asking because in https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/, there is only a directory named C, where are the other languages?
<Phantomas> anyone? We have translated over 90% of ubuntu-docs, it won't be very nice not to see them uploaded to the official ubuntu documentation site. :)
<jenkins> Phantomas: I guess you could try sending and e-mail to the docs mailing list ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<Phantomas> jenkins: I'll try...
<jenkins> sorry I can't not be much help all my work is on the manual stuff
<Phantomas> jenkins: nevermind! Your advice was correct, I'll try the mailing list. Thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-31
<head_victim> Quick question, for bug 837831 should that be filed against ubuntu-docs or -website or something else entirely?
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 837831 in ubuntu "Unreadable font colours on help.ubuntu.com" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/837831
<jbicha> head_victim: ubuntu-docs is fine
<head_victim> jbicha: thanks, wasn't sure it it just picked up a theme or not
<jbicha> the theme comes from our stylesheet, I was actually playing with the stylesheet today
<head_victim> Cheers, the bug came from another network and I'm a little inexperienced with bugs so was just trying to make it end up in the right place.
<jbicha> thanks!
<head_victim> I always do what I can to try and encourage those outside the usual "ubuntu sphere" to get involved.
<DarkwingDuck> mdke, Ping
<Overseman> So this is the place for the ubuntu docs team right?
<head_victim> Overseman: indeed
<Overseman> Cool I just wanted to point out that one of the pages for the doc team is a little outdated...I'm certain that the next meeting isn't on june 12 lol heres the link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<head_victim> Hmm good point, I don't know if there is a regular timeslot so I don't think there has been any meetings set since then
<head_victim> Most things are nutted out on the mailing list
<Overseman> Just thought it was worth pointing out
<head_victim> Overseman: it's a good point
<Overseman> I've enlisted to get on the mailing list so I can start finding ways to get envolved
<head_victim> That's a very good start
<head_victim> What sort of documentation are you interested in?
<Overseman> testing and verifying accuracy
<Overseman> In the world of Microsoft I'm a systems engineer and close to a MCM in the world of linux I'm n00b I figure testing and verifying for accuracy is the best way for me to earn EXP and it helps the community as well
<head_victim> Good to hear
<head_victim> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs is a list of open bugs at the moment. Might give you some ideas about what needs fixing and what faults are already known.
<Overseman> Awesome; thanks for the heads up!
<head_victim> No worries, if you ever get stuck and no one is in here to help just shoot the mailing list an email :)
<Overseman> Will do
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-01
<sladen> mdke et al;  UIFe Wallpaper time: bug #833990 (default wallpaper, slightly tweak from previous version that shouldn't affect documentation or screenshots) + bug #829213 (community wallpapers;  not set by default, only potentially visible in screenshots of Apperance control panel, where they are interchangable with any other selection)
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 833990 in ubuntu-wallpapers "UIFe: Incremental tweaks to default wallpaper for Ubuntu 11.10" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833990
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 829213 in ubuntu-wallpapers "FFe+UIFe: Upload Oneiric Ubuntu 11.10 wallpapers" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829213
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-02
<benonsoftware> Just wondering for help.ubuntu.com what type of English should we use?
<jbicha> benonsoftware: I believe US or UK English is fine, not overly formal
<jbicha> you can look at the Ubuntu Desktop Guide for the general style
<benonsoftware> Thanks
<celldee> Hi, I'm trying to have a look at the current system documentation for Ubuntu 11.10. I checked out lp:ubuntu-docs from bzr. Is that what I should be looking at?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-04
<valorie> sorry I'm late, darkwing duck
<valorie> hmmm, where is he?
<valorie> oh, i'm early and can't do basic math, I guess.....
<valorie> greetings DarkwingDuck!
<DarkwingDuck> Hello everyone!
<DarkwingDuck> Sorry I'm a couple of minutes late. :)
<DarkwingDuck> How many are here for the Doc Jam?
<jjesse> me :)
<DarkwingDuck> Okay, :D
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, ping
<DarkwingDuck> jjesse, did you hvae a chance to read over https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Documentation ?
<jjesse> yes but can't remember it
<DarkwingDuck> :)
<jjesse> i'll be more here once my son goes to bed for his nap :)
<valorie> I have Kubuntu-docs downloaded already, let me update
<valorie> just in case
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, that last link I just gave to jjesse is a neat little handbook.
<DarkwingDuck> Here is work items list https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-kubuntu-documentation-review
<DarkwingDuck> If you scroll down you will see the Documents Work Items.
<DarkwingDuck> Change Kubuntu.Documentation to your LP name
<valorie> $ bzr update
<valorie> Tree is up to date at revision 222 of branch /home/valorie/kubuntu_bzr/kubuntu-docs
<DarkwingDuck> and the TODO to INPROGRESS
<valorie> :-)
<DarkwingDuck> Also, if you are using Kate to edit the docs... There is one change you need to make to kate
<valorie> half a sec
<DarkwingDuck> Settings > Configure
<DarkwingDuck> Open/Save
<DarkwingDuck> Under the Advanced tab under 'Backup on Save' uncheck local files
<valorie> done
<DarkwingDuck> Woot.
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, take a few moments to look at this. https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Documentation
<DarkwingDuck> I'm hoping it will help with the docs.
<valorie> I'm not sure what you mean by "Change Kubuntu.Documentation to your LP name" - where?
<DarkwingDuck> Here
<DarkwingDuck> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-kubuntu-documentation-review
<DarkwingDuck> Scroll down
<DarkwingDuck> In the whiteboard.
<valorie> I'm not seeing the whiteboard
<valorie> Dependency Tree, with the diagram
<valorie> then Nearby
<valorie> and I am logged in
<DarkwingDuck> Up from the dependency
<valorie> ok, see it
<valorie> alrighty, there are a load of kubuntu.documentation items in the todo
<valorie> pick one?
<DarkwingDuck> What ever one you want to do yes.
<valorie> ok, the liveCD is on top, so I'll do that
<jjesse> yay for merges :)
<valorie> so in Kate, I open that bit?
<valorie> hmmm, that topic I don't see in /docs
<DarkwingDuck> It's not, I'll take that one. :)
<valorie> ok
<DarkwingDuck> It's changeing the live CD... Sorry.
<valorie> I'll do about, then
<valorie> so, work on C, or po ?
<jjesse> C
<jjesse> po is the translation portion
<DarkwingDuck> This is why I need more then one monitor...
 * DarkwingDuck explains it to the wife. :P
<BarkingFish> Afternoodles everyone.  I'm looking to get some docs done for Subtitle Editor, it doesn't appear that there is any, and the prog needs some explanation.  I just need something easier to write the docs in, and some advice on how to actually get them to work :)
<DarkwingDuck> BarkingFish, Just general how to docs?
<BarkingFish> sort of, yes
<BarkingFish> I started making one for Subtitle Editor, but it was so long winded, and when I tried to get it to work, it moaned about an index being missing or something
<valorie> so DarkwingDuck, can I change something like "utilize" to "use"?
<valorie> because utilize is one fugly word
<DarkwingDuck> Yup.
<DarkwingDuck> any changes like that to make things flow better is good.
<DarkwingDuck> It also makes translations simplier.
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, What one are you working on?
<valorie> about
<valorie> should anything be added about unity?
<DarkwingDuck> No, Unity doesn't effect Kubuntu/KDE at all.
<valorie> I'm near the end of the doc and have made a couple of small changes
<valorie> To install &kubuntu;&apos;s Plasma Desktop, the
<valorie> <application>kubuntu-desktop</application> package must be installed. To install
<valorie> &ubuntu;&apos;s &gnome; desktop, the <application>ubuntu-desktop</application>
<valorie> package is required.
<valorie> is that still true then?
<valorie> that one can still install Gnome
<valorie> not Unity by default?
<DarkwingDuck> Yes.
<valorie> because this is sounding a bit dated to me
<valorie> no mention of Unity at all
<DarkwingDuck> You can add that.
<valorie> hmmm, I will have to think, then
<valorie> !
<valorie> moar coffee needed
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, add your name to the whiteboard on all the topics you want to take. jjesse you as well.
<valorie> let's see how this one goes
<DarkwingDuck> :)
<valorie> first....
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, any questions?
<valorie> I'm just wondering how much mention of Unity is wise
<valorie> but I'm pretty sure it needs to be mentioned at least once
<valorie> in particular, that sentence I put above is factually wrong
<valorie> ubuntu-desktop does not install Gnome
<valorie> anymore
 * DarkwingDuck nods
<DarkwingDuck> Not too much, but make it the truth
<valorie> oh, and will they still call it GDM?
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, That I am not sure of.
<valorie> so, question, DarkwingDuck: &gnome; should be changed to Unity, or &unity;
<DarkwingDuck> Have not used the main ubuntu since Intrepid
<DarkwingDuck> I would say yes.
<valorie> I've only used it briefly, in frustration
<valorie> yes which?
<DarkwingDuck> Do Unity
<valorie> ok
<DarkwingDuck> BRB, update reboot. :)
<DarkwingDuck> valorie, I know that this is a dumb question but, you are bouncing everything you are doing off of Oneiric right?
<valorie> exactly
<DarkwingDuck> :)
<valorie> looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview/Beta1
<valorie> and we decided NOT to do lightDM, correct?
<DarkwingDuck> Are you running Oneiric in a VM or on your machine?
<valorie> no
<valorie> I haven't run a VM for a long time
<DarkwingDuck> You are going to want to as you go deeper in the documentation.
<DarkwingDuck> esp path to
<valorie> by "bouncing off of" you mean "write in light of"
<valorie> I assume
<valorie> DarkwingDuck: I'm willing to do that in the future, even tomorrow
<valorie> but not today
<valorie> i came back early from the cabin for this meeting
<valorie> and will go back up this afternoon
<DarkwingDuck> :D
<DarkwingDuck> The doc freeze is the 15th
<DarkwingDuck> I was hoping for more people today.
<frankbooth> DarkwingDuck if there's anything I can help out with, without having access to a machine with Oneiric, please let me know
<DarkwingDuck> frankbooth, valorie pretty much grabbed the one that is a general overview... The rest is ensuring that the information is correct for Oneiric.
<jjesse> i'b made notes
<jjesse> on what i'm working on but if someone was tackle those now i'm fine
<DarkwingDuck> ?
<DarkwingDuck> Fill out the work idems.
<DarkwingDuck> If I put my name on what you were working on change it.
<jjesse> ok
<valorie> ok, should I save, or save as ?
<DarkwingDuck> No sense doubled effort
<DarkwingDuck> save
<DarkwingDuck> Before you commit make sure you update again.
<DarkwingDuck> rather
<DarkwingDuck> Update then follow this https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Documentation/Submitting
<DarkwingDuck> And merge via Launchpad.
<valorie> you don't want to check my work?
<DarkwingDuck> I will there :)
<valorie> ok
<DarkwingDuck> Proposing for a merge will allow me to review the diff, approve it then make the merge.
<DarkwingDuck> Well, any of us with Kubuntu access.
<valorie> ok
<valorie> so these changes are not in response to bug reports, correct?
<valorie> oh good lord, how do I save this benighted text describing my changes?
<valorie> is this vi or vim or what?
<jjesse> nano i think
<jjesse> ctrl x
<jjesse> if i remember correctly
<jjesse> don't have my ubuntu vm right now
<valorie> hmmmm
<jjesse> did that work?
<valorie> I guess
<jjesse> what do you see now?
<valorie> let's see if I can create a diff.txt
<valorie> Committing to: /home/valorie/kubuntu_bzr/kubuntu-docs/
<valorie> modified docs/about/C/about.xml
<valorie> Committed revision 223.
<valorie> valorie@valorie-HP-Pavilion-dv7-Notebook-PC:~/kubuntu_bzr/kubuntu-docs$ bzr bundle > diffname.txt
<valorie> Using saved parent location "bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/%2Bbranch/kubuntu-docs/" to determine what changes to submit.
<valorie> Enter passphrase for key '/home/valorie/.ssh/id_rsa':
<valorie> Enter passphrase for key '/home/valorie/.ssh/id_rsa':
<valorie> Bundling 1 revision(s).tching revisions:Get stream source
<valorie> does that all look right?
<jjesse> yes
<valorie> weeeeeeeeee
<valorie> in for a dime, in for a dollar; about to finish this
<jjesse> yay
<DarkwingDuck> :D
<valorie> what the hell, I was going to link to a blueprint, but there is nothing suitable offered
<valorie> Lucid?
<jjesse> should be oneric but if you can't find thats fine
<DarkwingDuck> Don't worry about the blueprint.
<valorie> ok, go back and forget that?
<valorie> or use the lucid one
<DarkwingDuck> Forget it.
 * DarkwingDuck doesn't know why oneiric isn't working
<DarkwingDuck> I'll fix that for P
<valorie> proposed merge
<valorie> :-)
<valorie> this is exciting
<jjesse> DarkwingDuck after the approve do i merge it ? n ever really figured these out very weel
<DarkwingDuck> Yeah, I'll explain that to ya in a min
<DarkwingDuck> jjesse, you at that merge request page?
<DarkwingDuck> https://code.launchpad.net/~valorie-zimmerman/kubuntu-docs/valorieEdits/+merge/74028
<jjesse> YUP
<jjesse> argh caps
<jjesse> reading the diff right now
<DarkwingDuck> Under status you can claim the review and all of that.
<jjesse> ok
<jjesse> powering up kubuntu vm
<valorie> I believe I'll be able to do the CLI one without installing a VM
<DarkwingDuck> give it a shot. :)
<DarkwingDuck> I've been running Oneiric since Alpha 2
<DarkwingDuck> rather alpha 3
<valorie> the only new thing I've seen recently is apt-add-repository
<valorie> cli is pretty stable
<jjesse> beta was a pain in my arse yesterday
<DarkwingDuck> I've been pretty good... There are some minor issues.
<DarkwingDuck> Anyway jjesse
<DarkwingDuck> Once you have claimed the review and approved it.
<jjesse> ok claiming it right now
<DarkwingDuck> At the top of the page https://code.launchpad.net/~valorie-zimmerman/kubuntu-docs/valorieEdits/+merge/74028 you will see the following.
<DarkwingDuck> Status:
<DarkwingDuck> 	Needs review Edit status
<DarkwingDuck> Proposed branch: 	lp:~valorie-zimmerman/kubuntu-docs/valorieEdits
<DarkwingDuck> Merge into: 	lp:kubuntu-docs
<DarkwingDuck> Diff against target: 	64 lines (+8/-9) 1 file modified
<DarkwingDuck> To merge this branch: 	bzr merge lp:~valorie-zimmerman/kubuntu-docs/valorieEdits
<DarkwingDuck> That last one is the one...
<DarkwingDuck> In your bzr:/kubuntu-docs
<jjesse> ok checking to make sure i'm up to date :)
<DarkwingDuck> kk
<DarkwingDuck> bzr merge lp:~valorie-zimmerman/kubuntu-docs/valorieEdits
<jjesse> ok approved   starting the merge
<DarkwingDuck> That will merge it into the system
<jjesse> merging and commiting
<jjesse> pushed
<jjesse> yay valorie rocks
<DarkwingDuck> what version?
<valorie> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
<jjesse> revision 224
<DarkwingDuck> Just got a call.. have to pick up the wife... other car broke down.
<DarkwingDuck> I'll be back... jjesse you going to be around for a couple hours incase someone else comes in?
<DarkwingDuck> in case
<mdke> I will idle in here
<mdke> and try and help if poss
<DarkwingDuck> awesome. Thanks mdke
<mdke> looks like some good stuff going on!
<DarkwingDuck> We will knock it out.
<DarkwingDuck> mdke, who handles the server doc stuff?
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: no one specific at the moment - currently whoever is willing to review patches. Connor and Jeremy have both been doing some reviewing
<mdke> hopefully someone will step up from the serverteam as a maintainer
<jjesse> sure
<DarkwingDuck> mdke, Okay, Is that still docbook or, is that mallard?
<mdke> docbook
<mdke> Mallard isn't really suited to a long book style document like the serverguide
<DarkwingDuck> Okay, I'll take a look. I use Ubuntu Server here at home on my local server.
<DarkwingDuck> Plus, ScottK and I work together with Kubuntu and working together with server docs would be simple
<mdke> cool
<DarkwingDuck> mdke, will talk later.. .have to run!
<mdke> okay, cya
<mdke> anyone using Ubuntu Oneiric around?
<j1mc> mdke: i'll be putting it in a vm shortly.
<jjesse> i have a Kubuntu Oneric vm and a my netbook is running oneric natively
<mdke> I'm looking at this bug but struggling as I can't find the application referred to?
<mdke> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-user-docs/+bug/840905
<ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 840905 in gnome-user-docs "color-whyimportant missing" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<mdke> is my version so outdated that it is missing this application?
<j1mc> i think that is new to oneiric
<j1mc> i need to step away. bbiab.
<mdke> I'm using a live usb from Friday, maybe I should get a newer one, but seems strange they would introduce a new application since then
 * mdke zsyncs
<jjesse> DarkwingDuck changed the copyright, it was on the TODO/Workitems and i don't have access to edit the blueprint
<jjesse> DarkwingDuck also made some other minor changes
<jjesse> DarkwingDuck: also on the whiteboard it says change OpenOffice to LibreOffice which I took care awhile back.  I reviewed and thought I caught all of them.  I also changed the menus-ent to reference LibreOffice
<jjesse> DarkwingDuck please confirm i made all of the change
<jjesse> DarkwingDuck also the netbook folder was empty so removed it from the branch
<jjesse> DarkwingDuck let me knwo if removing breaks anything :)
<mdke> hey jbicha
<valorie> ok, proposed merge for the CLI section
<valorie> do we have some style guide that means we have to use "e-mail"?
<valorie> that looks antiquated to me
<valorie> in Contact
 * valorie changes
<valorie> hmmm, there is a problem, because no one has reviewed my previous proposed merge, I guess
<valorie> not sure what to do about that, and I'm sort of out of time
<valorie> I'll be back home later tonight or tomorrow morning at the latest
<mdke> valorie: if you commit to the same branch and continue to propose the merge, it should work
<mdke> valorie: agreed re e-mail
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-01
<trijntje> Hi all, what is the status of the kubuntu documentation? I know that the docs werent packaged for 12.04, are there any changes for 12.10?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-08-26
<bkerensa> pleia2: oh btw Doc Freeze does not really exist
<bkerensa> at least that is what release team told me last cycle
<bkerensa> :)
<smartboyhw> bkerensa, you don't want it delayed too late
<smartboyhw> ;p
<bkerensa> well
<bkerensa> I think the only reason it exists is for translations
<bkerensa> which notably they did not update most doc translations last cycle
<bkerensa> :s
<smartboyhw> ...
<pleia2> bkerensa: how do the translators know when to start?
<pleia2> because yes, that is the whole point of a doc freeze, and it's important
<bkerensa> pleia2: So I would tell them
<bkerensa> :)
<bkerensa> thats what I did last cycle
<pleia2> bkerensa: so are we sticking with the doc freeze in the current schedule, or should we move it so they can plan accordingly?
<bkerensa> I just sent a "Get last MP's into doc e-mail" to the list
<bkerensa> pleia2: yes
<pleia2> ok, great
<bkerensa> pleia2: I don't care to change things
<pleia2> and yeah, as far as the release team is concerned it's not a freeze like other things
<pleia2> it's a social thing in place for translators
<bkerensa> yeah
<bkerensa> I am going to ask jono's team to provide me a list of features they want us to list in What's New
<pleia2> sounds good :)
<bkerensa> that way they can ask the various engineering teams what is most relevant
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> ok, sleepies time for me
<pleia2> have a good night
<bkerensa> gnight
#ubuntu-doc 2013-08-29
<smartboyhw> Docs people: Can I be added to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc as I'm starting work on Ubuntu Studio offline docs?
<smartboyhw> bkerensa, ^
<smartboyhw> godbyk, ^
<smartboyhw> Or do I have to ask CC?
<smartboyhw> pleia2, ^
#ubuntu-doc 2013-08-31
<pleia2> smartboyhw: re: ~ubuntu-core-doc, you need to do work on documentation and work with the team, eventually you apply to be part of core doc for your flavor
<pleia2> smartboyhw: and it's done on the ubuntu-doc mailing list, the team administrators handle all this (the CC is not involved, we just own the team for emergencies)
<smartboyhw> pleia2, sure
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-01
<pleia2> bkerensa: any luck finding that broken screenshot script and trying it out?
<pleia2> I'm writing a getting involved blog post for the team and it would be great to give that broken script job to someone
<godbyk> pleia2: The script is called collect-screenshots.sh. It lives in the root dir of the repository.
<pleia2> godbyk: ah, thanks!
<godbyk> pleia2: no problem. :)
<pleia2> godbyk: oh, and you have email
 * pleia2 on docs this morning
<godbyk> nice
<pleia2> we can chat about it here, nothing private about the mail
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> Let me skim through your doc. One moment
<pleia2> The program 'bzr' is currently not installed.
<pleia2> hehe, new laptops
 * pleia2 follows all her own instructions!
<godbyk> I take so many things for advantage like that. And when I set up a new PC I always discover just how many packages aren't installed by default. :)
<godbyk> There are a couple ways we can handle volunteers:
<godbyk> 1. Just let them review anything they like and hope everyone doesn't choose to review the same few pages; or
<godbyk> 2. Assign volunteers to certain pages to help ensure full coverage of the current docs.
<pleia2> my concern with 2 is that it seems like a big task
<pleia2> we'll need to set up a mechanism to track this and for people to sign up quickly so they don't get bored and walk away
<godbyk> It's usually not too bad. For the Ubuntu Manual, we just have a spreadsheet that tracks who is writing/editing each section or chapter.
<pleia2> ah, spreadsheet is a good idea
<godbyk> People can request particular sections/chapters and we try to assign them based on preference.
<pleia2> I used to like the wiki for these things, but so many people have trouble logging in to and editing the silly thing
<godbyk> At the end, we often have some sections that are still missing authors/editors and we then request volunteers to fill those specific slots.
<pleia2> cool
<godbyk> Maintaining tables on the wiki is especially bothersome, too.
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> so, shall I create said spreadsheet?
<godbyk> Sure.
<godbyk> Also, for volunteers who want to do some drive-by editing, they can just look at the current docs at help.ubuntu.com and let us know what needs to be updated.
<godbyk> There may be some mismatches between the 13.04 docs and the work we've already done on 13.10, but I don't think the gap is very large at the moment.
<godbyk> (This way the volunteers don't need to learn bzr or Mallard or anything. Just read the existing docs and tell us where the errors are.)
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> is there an easy way to build the docs for viewing?
<pleia2> for xubuntu 'make' in the doc directory makes an html version that's quite handy for normal people reviewing
<godbyk> That's a list of all the .page files. We could group them a bit, too (e.g., a11y, accounts, add/remove, backup).
<godbyk> You can run 'make' in the ubuntu-docs, too, but you'll need to have a few other packages installed first.
<pleia2> wow, that's lots of pages :)
<godbyk> Thankfully, most of them are quite short.
<pleia2> I didn't actually realize the docs were so big
<godbyk> You'll need the following Ubuntu packages: bzr xsltproc libxml2-utils yelp-tools yelp-xsl
<godbyk> I think running 'make html' will do the minimum amount of work to generate the html files.
<godbyk> Reading the .page files (with Mallard markup) isn't too difficult either, but it's definitely easier to view the rendered HTML.
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> oh gosh, it's taking like 4 days to do bzr branch lp:ubuntu/ubuntu-docs
<godbyk> bzr (or Launchpad) does seem awfully slow sometimes.
<pleia2> godbyk: are you able to access this? http://etherpad.ubuntu.com/sUWEmOmlvR
<pleia2> if not, I can add you to the etherpad team
<pleia2> much easier than reviewing+updating static file in my /temp dir on my website
<godbyk> pleia2: Yes.
<pleia2> ok cool
<godbyk> pleia2: One problem with viewing the html docs locally is that I think there are some http://help.ubuntu.com/... links in the docs so it may send you to the online docs at some point instead of the local files.
<pleia2> godbyk: ah, interesting point
<pleia2> some day when this bzr branch finishes I'll run through this process myself and see if there are any other gotchas
<godbyk> It looksl ike most of the links to help.ubuntu.com are in the footer, so it may not be as big of a problem as I thought.
<godbyk> There are some links to the community wiki, as well.
 * pleia2 nods
<godbyk> In any case, I don't think it'll be a huge problem. If a bug gets reported multiple times, that's better than not getting reported at all.
<pleia2> agreed
<pleia2> ok, I'm going to share this spreadsheet with the list before sharing it in blog
<godbyk> Sounds good.
<godbyk> See what they think of the idea.
<pleia2> done
<godbyk> I updated your spreadsheet usage to have the reviewers check the spreadsheet first to find a page that hasn't yet been reviewed.
<godbyk> Hopefully that'll cut down on everyone reviewing the same few pages.
<pleia2> \o/
<godbyk> Should I suggest that they call your home phone number if they have questions?  ;-)
<pleia2> lol
<pleia2> ok, this post looks good, thanks godbyk :)
<godbyk> No problem. I'm happy to help. :)
<godbyk> Hopefully this will help jump-start things a bit.
<godbyk> One thing the spreadsheet won't help us with is determining what topics the documentation should cover that it currently doesn't.
<godbyk> Are there new features or default apps that we need to write new documentation for?
<pleia2> that's a very good question, bkerensa tried to get some help from jono on that but came up empty
<pleia2> the beta1 comes out this week and Ubuntu should have some release notes for it (they didn't do any alphas)
<pleia2> I'm inclined to mostly crib from those unless we find a better way
<godbyk> Okay, we'll have to see what we can glean from those.
<godbyk> It'd be nice if the developers/designers could shoot us an email or CC us on bugs when they add new features or change things.
<godbyk> Anymore, it seems like the documentation is an afterthought (if that).
<pleia2> yeah, that would be nice
<pleia2> the party line seems to be "read the blueprints" but there are like 100s :)
<godbyk> Yeah, and many of the blueprints never come to fruition.
<pleia2> yeah
<godbyk> They stall out for one reason or another.
<pleia2> I'm hoping that as the team becomes more visible again people will want to pay attention to docs and make sure their new stuff is advertised
<godbyk> I also get a little perturbed when it comes to breaking the UI freeze or documentation freeze.  Everyone seems fairly cavalier about that.
<pleia2> yeah, I've really not been impressed with that lately
<pleia2> Branched 112 revisions.
<pleia2> w00t done
<godbyk> On the few occasions I've been involved with those discussions, we've either allowed the freeze exception or, if we protested the exception, sabdfl overrode us anyway.
<pleia2> godbyk: have you ever run this collect-screenshots.sh ? I'm wondering, do I just fire up a new 13.10 VM and try to run it and see what happens?
<godbyk> Finally! :-)
<godbyk> Yeah, you can run it in a VM to see what happens.
<godbyk> I wouldn't run it on your main installation because it changes the screen resolution and other things without prompting.
<godbyk> Be prepared for windows to start opening and closing a bunch, too.
<pleia2> ok, I'll do that in a bit and send my report to the list, then share it on my twitters and things so we can find someone to fix it
<pleia2> hah, I run Xubuntu anyway :)
<godbyk> The script tries to set the screen resolution then automatically run programs and take screenshots.
 * pleia2 nods
<godbyk> Thanks. It's been on my to do list for a while and I just haven't gotten to it yet.
<pleia2> my husband's best friend is in town so I have a lonely day while they go tear up the town together ;)
<godbyk> Ah, nice.
<pleia2> although, I haven't eaten in a while and I should probably go do that
<pleia2> I'll post blog thing and play with script upon my return
<godbyk> Sounds good.
<godbyk> I'm going to take a shower and then find something to eat, too.
 * godbyk slept in this morning.
 * pleia2 too
<pleia2> see you in a bit then
<godbyk> See you.
<godbyk> pleia2: Well, I'm finding a few bugs in the collect-screenshots.sh script...
<godbyk> Line 110: dir should be $dir
<godbyk> Line 114: -eq should be ==
<pleia2> I learned that you need to install xdotool before it'll work
<godbyk> Oh, yeah.
<godbyk> and imagemagick
<godbyk> See the comment at the top of the script.
<godbyk> We should add checks for those programs so it installs them if they're missing.
<pleia2> I am supposed to read the script before I run it?! details details :)
<godbyk> Yeah, no kidding!
<godbyk> I figured it out by running the script and reading the errors. :-/
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> gosh, running ubuntu in a vm these days isn't exactly zippy
<godbyk> Yeah.
<godbyk> If you don't have a 3D graphics card it runs dog slow.
<godbyk> You know what would be nice?  If someone had added comments to this script. :-)
<pleia2> hehe
 * pleia2 follows the instructions this time and runs it
<pleia2> ta-da! http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=8443
<godbyk> \o/
<godbyk> Well, I finished running the collect-screenshots.sh script.
<godbyk> And I have a handful of screenshots in the ~/.ubuntu-help/en_US/figures/ dir.
<godbyk> Some of them seem okay, but I think some might be incorrect.
<godbyk> I think there are race conditions in the script.
 * pleia2 nods
<godbyk> I think it means to kill all the apps it opened before making the next screenshot.
<godbyk> But since everything is running asynchronously it doesn't always work out.
<godbyk> (Or something)
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-doc/figures/  â here's what I ended up with
<godbyk> I think http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-doc/figures/unity-appmenu-intro.png, for example, is too cluttered.
<pleia2> interesting, different than mine
<godbyk> Does yours close the apps more quickly?
<pleia2> actually, looks very similar except for unity and unity2 (I didn't get those)
<godbyk> Ah.. the unity.png file won't exist until you fix a bug in the script.
<godbyk> Two bugs.
<pleia2> and nautilus worked ok for me, but my unity-appmenu-intro.png was wrong too, I got the calendar :)
<godbyk> Line 110: add $ before dir
<godbyk> Line 114: change -eq to ==
<pleia2> heh, for -exit I got the calendar too
<godbyk> Hmm.. are you running at 1024Ã768?
<pleia2> yeah
<godbyk> Once you run the script you have to keeps your hands off the mouse, too. It'll move the mouse pointer around programmatically to click on those menus.
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/figures/
<godbyk> Ha! Between the two of us we might have just over half the screenshots. ;-)
<godbyk> What a brittle way to take screenshots... relying on magic coordinates to never change, particular screen resolutions, random files downloaded from urls that could vanish at any moment, ...
<pleia2> yeah
<godbyk> I just pushed the couple bug fixes I mentioned above (lines 110 1nd 114).
<pleia2> great
<godbyk> I'm working on spiffying up the script, too.
<godbyk> Adding more status info (with colors!) and adding comments so it's easier to see what's happening (or should be happening).
<pleia2> \o/
<godbyk> Wow, someone was feeling clever!
<godbyk> In the script, they set the time to be the same as the Ubuntu version.
<godbyk> For us to do that with 13.10, however, we'll have to switch to military time.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-08-25
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Are you around?
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Your are a wiki admin, correct?
<dsmythies> belkinsa: (or any wiki administrator) Do wiki admins have the power to globally delete a subscriber, such that they do not have to do it on each page themselves?
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Reference: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1361361
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 1361361 in ubuntu-docs "Receiving all Wiki.Ubuntu.com changes bulk mail for 7 years." [Undecided,New]
<pleia2> dsmythies: unfortunately not, that's a ticket to canonical kind of deal, they probably have to deactivate the lp account
<pleia2> or edit the database
<dsmythies> pleia2: Thanks, that is what I thought and also what I already wrote in the bug report.
<dsmythies> ... was just checking
<pleia2> hopefully your suggestion will get them to find what they've subscribed to :)
<dsmythies> seems to be subscribed to every page.
<pleia2> yeah, you can do that with .* in the subscription box
<dsmythies> It is not clear to me why this person waited 7 years to complain about it.
<pleia2> hah, indeed :)
<belkinsa> dsmythies, I'm not an admin.
<belkinsa> But I think this issue needs to go to RT@ubuntu.com as I commented on the bug report.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Thanks for both your reply here and your entry on the bug report.
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
#ubuntu-doc 2015-08-24
<pmatulis> morning
