#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-18
<rwabel> ok
<rwabel> will do it for the changes I've made too
<rwabel> I mean this from today...well yesterday for me
<mdke> rwabel, nonono
<mdke> rwabel, you dont' need to make changes on the page, just when you edit and save a page, fill in the little box that says "comment"
<mdke> "Optional comment about this change"
<rwabel> mdke: have u seen, all the stuff under documents is gone :-) only the UserDocumentation! wow
<rwabel> ah it was you
<rwabel> yeah, I like the updates you have done very much!!
<rwabel> mdke: we should make some subsections for software. I'll think about some and make the changes
<rwabel> mdke: made the changes. btw doesn't UserDocumentation need a belonging?
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  do you know how to stop the wiki from automatically trying to create link from a word on a page?
<jsgotangco> using CamelCase?
<jsgotangco> i don't know how it does that in Moin
<robitaille> the SSHHowTo page uses "DestinationDirectory" in a couple of example, and the wiki really tries to link this to an non-existent page
<jsgotangco> well CamelCase would really do that although Im not sure how to override it aside from changing the text itself
<jsgotangco> (maybe there is no override either)
<jsgotangco> jeffsch: hi
<jeffsch> howdy
<robitaille> i'll be right back... ( crying baby...)
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: what are the ARs from the previous meeting?
<jeffsch> maybe we can add a list of them to the agenda page
<jeffsch> so people know in advance, and maybe be better prepared
<jsgotangco> hmmm right i will have to review the chat logs though
<jsgotangco> *jeezz*
<jeffsch> :)
<jsgotangco> there were people who said "I will do this"
<jsgotangco> etc
<jsgotangco> *grin(
<jeffsch> surely not me! :) hehe
<jeffsch> robitaille: Camel''''''Case. 6 apostrophes will prevent a link
<jsgotangco> yuck
<jeffsch> there's also a short form: !CamelCase will do the same thing, except
<jeffsch> that feature is off by default and needs to be activated
<jsgotangco> strange though, thats way better than 6 apostrophes
<jeffsch> yeah. maybe there are other issues involved. i don't know.
<jsgotangco> well i'll brb for lunch
<robitaille> jeffsch: 6 apostrophes to override CamelCase? can't say it's really user friendly :)
<robitaille> SSHHowto contains at least 5 !  So obviously the override was in use before the wiki transition.
<Burgundavia> salut all
<froud> African Greetings
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia  Hi froud 
<robitaille> so Burgundavia , did you go to the meeting tonight?
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> just got back in
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> gyahhh sorry
<mpt> mdke/jsgotangco: What license are the ubuntu docs under?
<mpt> And what license is the wiki under?
<froud-work> dual license
<froud-work> GFDL and CC-BY-SA 2.0
<mpt> oh, excellent
<mpt> so if someone prints out copies of a page and distributes them, they don't need to include a copy of the GFDL with each one
<mpt> The Gnome User Guide is GFDL solely, though, right?
<mpt> rats
<jsgotangco> the wiki also goes by dual license?
<mpt> I see nothing in the edit form which says what license your edits will be under
<mpt> which is probably a bad thing
<jsgotangco> brb
<rob^> hey, does anyone know how to recover lost wiki passwords?
<Njal> guys, why when i chose not to recieve email's from the list for the next few weeks am i still getting them?
<mdke> hi all
<mgalvin> hi all
<jsgotangco> hello
<mgalvin> hi jsgotangco
<froud> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey what's happenin
<jsgotangco> hmmm the lists seems dead again
<mgalvin> i'll have to change that ;) i should have some free time today
<mdke> hey guys
<froud> hey
<jsgotangco> mdke!
<mdke> hi jsgotangco :)
<froud> jsgotangco: on the codecs etc issues, lets ask people at canonical for an offical statement of the position
<mgalvin> hi mdke
<jsgotangco> froud: sure jane can definitely have a say on that
<froud> we seem to be goin in square circles on it
<jsgotangco> i can email her later
<froud> OK can you, great. CC the list too
<jsgotangco> sure i sent her an email earlier on a totally different issue though
<froud> hopefully it will bring finality
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> although i was thinking something
<jsgotangco> we can still write stuff on codecs, etc.
<jsgotangco> but it would be a separate package and be in universe/multiverse instead
<froud> nice idea, but will it work for the user
<mdke> bit complicated IMHO
<froud> lots of hassle just to get information about that
<froud> when I can just go to ubuntuguide.org
<mdke> yes
<mdke> plus most of our guides would have to be split into main/multiverse
<froud> why?
<mdke> because many of them will have stuff about codecs/dvd's etc
<mdke> i would prefer to ship everything together
<jsgotangco> isn't that only the faq guide?
<mdke> well the user guide has things about mp3s and dvds too
<froud> yeah problem is just in faq for now
<mdke> i assume the kde user guide does too
<froud> no
<mdke> so the kde user guide doesn't tell people how to listen to mp3s?
<mdke> or play dvds?
<froud> I am restricting to main and restricted
<mdke> the two most common tasks on a computer?
<froud> what gets installed
<mdke> for many users...
<jsgotangco> mdke: the app itself points to where you can get the codec, like Kaffeine
<froud> and hint to expansion
<jsgotangco> it explicitly indicates where to get them as well
<froud> user goes from there
<froud> If Kaffeine user manual points there, that is all I need reference
<jsgotangco> i prefer going to main and restricted route as well for general documentation
<jsgotangco> right
<mdke> that is pretty restrictive
<mdke> especially for the faqguid
<jsgotangco> its not supported in the first place
<mdke> e
<froud> mdke: where is the cut-of line then ?
<mdke> universe and multiverse are supported
<mdke> also backports will be supported for breezy
<jsgotangco> by whom?
<jsgotangco> there's a reason whey there's an ubuntu logo on packages in synaptic
<mdke> by official Ubuntu teams
<froud> mdke: adding them leads to problems
<mdke> MOTU, backports
<froud> and makes definition of the cuttoff hard
<froud> safe to stick with main and restricted
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> i disagree wholeheartedly ;)
<jsgotangco> main and restricted are guaranteed
<jsgotangco> universe, multiverse, backports can be a hit or miss
<mdke> in what way hit or miss?
<jsgotangco> are you sure all stuff in universe are properly maintained?
<mdke> they are community maintained, but mark and everyone else at ubuntu regards them as "supported"
<jsgotangco> we're talking about 19,000 packages
<froud> mdke: there must be a cut-off point
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i suggest the cut off point be those things which are not supported by Ubuntu
<mdke> thus including main, restricted, universe, multiverse, backports
<froud> mdke: support is not given as abosolute on those
<mdke> ok this is why we need to get higher direction on what to do
<mdke> we can ask the Community Council and Jane
<froud> Oh no not more of that
<froud> I just suggested we ask to get confirmation on whether or not they will agree to us explaining how to install stuff that is dubious
<froud> not to have a halabaloo
<jsgotangco> in a business sense, it can be dodgy
<froud> what is our aim
<froud> what do we want to do?
<mdke> froud, yours is a knee jerk reaction against the Community Council, but the reality is that they are the people to give guidance on this
<froud> we want the user to get started on the distro and know where to go further
<jsgotangco> froud: +1
<mdke> ok
<froud> mdke: no dude, sorry yu think that
<mdke> if you ignore universe and multiverse it is a FACT that people will not use your docs and will continue to go to ubuntuguide.org
<froud> I would suggest clear cutoffs
<jsgotangco> well in a distro sense, look at RHEL and Fedora
<froud> open universe and multiverse an dyou open a can of worms and more work that you can finish for the release
<mdke> froud, you don't need to cover everything, you just need to ensure that users that want to play mp3s and dvds know how they can do it
<mdke> there are certain things that users will want to do very commonly
<froud> sorry I am normally a go, go, do everyting guy, but on this I err on the side of less risk
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> i don't think this is a risk or an excessive burden
<froud> point users where they need to go
<mdke> but I do think that guidance from above is important
<mdke> as you have both said already
<mdke> from my point of view, the question is whether you want users to find your docs helpful, or not
<froud> if they need to install then the manual should explain the generic
<froud> mdke: it is useful
<mdke> a user guide which doesn't help users to watch dvd's is not entirely useful
<mdke> it is useful in other ways, but not in an important common task
<froud> A user guide that instructs you to configure apt
<froud> update sources
<froud> and explains the components
<froud> then says look in there if you need it, this is how you install
<jsgotangco> hmm
<froud> the this is how you install is a generic thing
* jsgotangco checks his windows box on dvds, etc.
<froud> you dont actually say to people install this or that
<mdke> froud, ok you _would_ envisage telling users about universe/multiverse?
<froud> I do when I configure apt
<mdke> right so simply telling them about the package "gstreamer0.8-mad" for mp3s is hardly a bit step forward
<jsgotangco> Updated, Windows XP compatible DVD decoders are available through the  following DVD solution providers:
<jsgotangco> there
<froud> http://lnix.net/~froud/kuserguide/C/pt08.html
<mdke> jsgotangco, the problem you face with bringing out a "windows" argument is that all PCs _SHIP_ with windows and have a working dvd player installed
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> that's true in your place
<jsgotangco> not in ours or in other places as well
<froud> yeah
<mdke> ok but in general
<froud> here we insall dvd on windows
<jsgotangco> there's no difference, the point is that even they pointed
<mdke> all I am asking is to point
<froud> no they did not
<mdke> you and froud are saying that we shouldn't point at the right packages
<froud> they gave me a dvd player with sony software
<jsgotangco> dude
<jsgotangco> you're a lawyer you know what that entails
<mdke> jsgotangco, i know that universe and multiverse are legal
<mdke> otherwise Ubuntu wouldn't provide them
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> libdvd is in multiverse?
<mdke> no
<mdke> libdvdcss is installed by running a script included with the package dvdread i think
<mdke> i don't necessarily think we should be supporting that
<froud> In Universe you can find almost every piece of known open source software, and software available under a variety of less open licences, all built automatically from a variety of public sources. All of this software is compiled against the libraries and using the tools that form part of Main, so it should install and work well with the software in main, but it comes with no guarantee of security fixes and support. The Unive
<jsgotangco> i agree on that
<froud> "under a variety of less open licences"
<mdke> erm
<froud> "but it comes with no guarantee of security fixes and support"
<mdke> most of universe is gpl2
<mdke> its multiverse that is not open source
<jsgotangco> "security fixes and support"
<mdke> ...
<froud> I dont even consider instructing a user to install it. I tell them its available
<mdke> listen we all know what universe is
<froud> I say use it if you want
<mdke> the fact is that it is considered as supported. There have been plenty of threads on ubuntu-devel on this subject
<mdke> we all know there are no guaranteed security updates
<mdke> and i agree, it is important to tell the users this
<froud> I say I showed you how to isntall, now you can do what you want
<mdke> yep
<mdke> but users need to know which package does what in some cases (gstreamer0.8-plugins are an obvious example)
<froud> give users a hint, but don't directly instruct them to install a non gpl package
<mdke> ok sure
<mdke> my view is to inform them as much as possible so they can take their own informed decisions
<froud> if you tell them to install something that violatates a software patent, then people can be liable
<froud> mdke: agreed
<froud> not saying dont tell them they must do it
<jsgotangco> hmm i don't see anything in fedora about stuff like this either
<froud> just explain nicely and direct them for more info
<froud> not allowed, period
<jsgotangco> dodgy
<froud> jsgotangco: not allowed, period
<froud> not even a question
<jsgotangco> yep
<froud> if users want it the ask in the community
<mdke> saying "fedora don't do it" is not a convincing argument for me
<mdke> we have to make up our own minds about what sort of documentation we provide
<froud> mdke: there are reasons
<jsgotangco> no wonder Turbo Linux shipped a commercial player (and jacked up the price)
<mdke> froud, i'm sure there are
<froud> I am not saying we need to be as radical, I am saying define the limits of the gray area
<froud> work in this
<froud> don't step in the black
<jsgotangco> make a workaround while still retaining the grey area
<froud> balancing act
<froud> yes
* mdke blinks
<mdke> jeez you guys use a lot of buzz words
<froud> so long as it can never be said that we told anyone to install patented technology illegally
<jsgotangco> its how lawyers do it right *wink*
<mdke> jsgotangco, i'm not that sort of lawyer, but yeah
<jsgotangco> mdke: you're an honorable one then :)
<mdke> froud, i don't think anyone will disagree with that
<froud> k
<mdke> nothing in universe or multiverse has the problem
<froud> must go for a minute
<mdke> the/that
<froud> bbl
<mdke> also, nothing in backports should have that problem either
<mdke> (when backports becomes official)
<jsgotangco> backports official?
<mdke> erm
<mdke> jsgotangco, where have you been for the last month?
<jsgotangco> when they reside in ubuntu servers you mean
<mdke> the team will be official (see next weeks CC agenda) and yes, they will be on ubuntu servers and have proper rules
<jsgotangco> even so, they're still not in Main :)
<mdke> neither is the MOTU work
<jsgotangco> we're going in circles heh
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> square ones, as froud would say :[
<mdke> s/[/p
* mdke coughs
<jsgotangco> oohh check this out
<jsgotangco> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule
<jsgotangco> although fedora docteam has a redhat employee heading them
<mdke> cool
<mdke> you know what
<mdke> changing the subject for a moment
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> those two guys who said they'd take charge of the Ubuntu userguide have not yet done anything
<jsgotangco> Sean Quinn and Jon Atkinson
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> NO WAY
<mdke> i was thinking maybe I would take it on
<mdke> i've done quite a lot of work on it over the last couple of days
<jsgotangco> sure i'll just finish my styleguide contrib and help you out on that as well as breezy-fy the quickguide soon
<jsgotangco> well squinn must be enjoying his summer break he's an 8th grader if i recall
<mdke> he's like 12 ;)
<jsgotangco> its my wife's birthday today
<mdke> its cool, but I just figured it needed someone to take charge and give it some love
<jsgotangco> we watched a bandminton tourney
<jsgotangco> it had europe vs. asia
<mdke> jsgotangco, cool, say tanti auguri from me
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> asia kicked europe's arse
<jsgotangco> (asia only had the gold medalist from the olympics btw)
<mdke> meh
<mdke> you asians...
<jsgotangco> the female british player looks great though
<jsgotangco> from what i know, UK has the #1 mixed double badminton team
<mdke> yeah i seem to remember them doing well
<mdke> silver at the olympics or something
<jsgotangco> Robertson & Emms
<jsgotangco> we're big badminton fanatics btw
<jsgotangco> my wife plays in the local leagues
<mdke> cool
<mdke> badminton is fun
<jsgotangco> yeah if you're in indonesia or malaysia, a tourney can pack 10,000 people
<jsgotangco> bigger than an F1 event heh
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> i gotta start saving for 2012 heh
<mdke> see you here...
<jsgotangco> we're dead set on 2008
<jsgotangco> are the lists dead?
<mdke> don't think so
<jsgotangco> i haven't been receving any ubuntu list email for at least 3 hours already
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> my email this morning didn't get through
<mdke> dammit
<jsgotangco> i hope my email to jane this morning went through heh she was following up on some stuff from other UDU BOFs
<mdke> well it is highly likely only mailing lists are affected
<jsgotangco> i hope the others do remember that we have a meeting tommorow at 22UTC
<jsgotangco> jeffsch said he might not be able to come at all since he has a number of commitments for tommorow
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i have an italian meeting at 1900;)
<mdke> should be a good evening
<jsgotangco> you think its a good idea to have revolving meeting time (14 and 22)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> depends what everyone else prefers
<mdke> i'm easy with both
<jsgotangco> its the best slots where everyone is awake in between
<jsgotangco> it wouldnt have been a problem if i was located in EU or in US
<jsgotangco> i guess i streched it heh
<mgalvin> what about 20
<mgalvin> 22 is always tuff for me
<jsgotangco> it would be 4am on my side heh
<mgalvin> thats 6pm here (work commute time)
<mgalvin> ouch
<jsgotangco> 22 is 6am which is tolerable
<mgalvin> 22 is fine then, i usually make it home in time
<jsgotangco> 14 is actually good (10pm)
<mgalvin> 10am here :) thats good for me too
<jsgotangco> have you tried google earth
<jsgotangco> damn i never enjoyed looking at maps for a while
<jsgotangco> heh
<mgalvin> yea, its pretty darn cool
<mdke> yeah
<mpt> 2200 UTC would be good for me normally, but not this Friday, coz I'll be in transit
<jsgotangco> mpt: where to?
<mpt> Christchurch
<mpt> nowhere exciting :-)
<mdke> isn't it thursday the meeting?
<mpt> It's Friday NZT
<mdke> ah of course
<mdke> doh
<jsgotangco> i liked christchurch
<jsgotangco> yeah the meeting would be friday on my side as well
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> froud, FYI i'm copying your stuff about software sources into the Ubuntu userguide
<mdke> :p
<mdke> although making the necessary adjustments of course
<froud> yw
<froud> switching hosts
<froud> bb in 2 min
<mdke> froud, can you help me with something a moment?
<froud> i'll try
<mdke> froud, go to http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/userguide/C/
<mdke> try clicking on the links
<mdke> do you notice that they are incredibly annoying to click on?
<mdke> not all of the title to each part is a link it seems
<froud> something in the CSS I think I dont get the same problem here http://lnix.net/~froud/kuserguide/C/index.html
<mdke> froud, i was about to say that the kde docs don't have that problem
* mdke nudges jeffsch 
<froud> the main difference technically is the css
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> froud, by the way I added something about the MOTU in the Ubuntu userguide in the universe section. do you want me to put it into the kde userguide too?
<froud> what did yo add
<mdke> not much
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> <para>The packages in the <quote>Universe</quote> repository are looked after by a Community Team called the <quote>Masters of the Universe</quote> (MOTU). However, there is no support from the core development team on the software packages residing in <quote>Universe</quote> and no guarantee of regular security updates, although the MOTU team will often provide security updates.</para>
<froud> sure patch it
<mdke> okies
<froud> thanks
<mdke> i saw the odd grammar thing too
<froud> if you see grammar just patch
<froud> same for spelling
<mdke> will do
<froud> thank hey
<mdke> the doc doesn't validate, although it's not in the part i edited
<mdke> ah i see it
<mdke> fixed
<mgalvin> cool, i just saw that kubuntu-doc was uploaded :)
<froud> yes, it will be uploaded weekly
<Njal> lo
<mdke> hi there
<Njal> hows you?
<mdke> not bad thanks
<Njal> cool
<Njal> um why after clicking the check box on ubuntu-doc list that i don't want to recieve mail am i still getting it?
<mdke> which check box did you click?
<mdke> disable mail delivery?
<Njal> Yeah, tomoro PC goes away in the garage 4 3 weeks
<Njal> Wont be recieving email
<mdke> the box you need to tick is "disable mail delivery = yes"
<mdke> iirc
<Njal> iirc?
<mdke> if i recall correctly
<Njal> oh
<Njal> but i checked that
<mdke> i'm not sure, you have to contact the list administrator
<Njal> hmm can i view the page in lynx?
<mdke> no idea
<Njal> what's the address again?
<Njal> firefox is dodgy atm
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo
<mdke> but the server is down i think
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc sorry
<Njal> Hmm 
<Njal> I think it is
<Njal> Oh i think i have just found the reason my system run's so damn slow
<Njal> I don't appear to have swap space
<froud> good night
<mdke> jeffsch, ping?
<rwabel> mdke: you put a lot new howto's in the UserDocumentation :-)
<rwabel> mdke: shouldn't we also put a link to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUbuntuUsers on our Newbie section?
<rwabel> same for NewUserGuide
<rwabel> or aren't they completly yet to put up?
<mdke> rwabel, i don't think those are finished
<mdke> rwabel, I'm sure the authors will add links when they are done
<rwabel> ok
<mdke> rwabel, one other tip for editing the wiki, if you make very small changes (such as fixing a link), check the "trivial changes" box
<mdke> you can also use the "preview" button to see if the links are working before you submit changes
<mdke> rwabel, the other thing is, for development documentation, such as docs for building packages, i think we should just point users to DevelopmentResources and keep the links on that second page. What do you think?
<rwabel> you mean the CheckInstall howto?
<mdke> rwabel, that would be an example. Earlier today I moved another link too (about building deb packages from scratch)
<rwabel> it should be easily found when you want to know how CheckInstall works. I didn't find anything about CheckInstall...but I didn't searched for long
<rwabel> so I should add the link in DeevelopmentResources
<mdke> agreed
<rwabel> mhh somehow it doesn't fit...or where would u put that one in?
<rwabel> mhh first section could be ok
<mdke> yeah
<rwabel> done
<rwabel> UserDocumentation gets better and better. Makes fun to contribute :-)
<mdke> yeah it's looking great
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-19
<mdke> --> bed
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> froud: shalom
<froud> jsgotangco: bokker tov
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> isn't that single S
<jsgotangco> i mean K
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> mah nismah?
<jsgotangco> hehe
<sivang> shalom jsgotangco 
<sivang> :-)
<sivang> froud: ma kore?
<froud> sivang: oved kashe
<sivang> froud: aye aye aye, misken :-)
<sivang> froud: al ma?
<froud> sivang: ani katav techni as ani oved kashe bishvil ha likahot
<froud> ma la sot
* jsgotangco gets lost with all the hebrew being spoken :)
<sivang> jsgotangco: stopped it :-)
<sivang> froud: well, if you have lots of work, it's good - where there a work there's a living.
<froud> yeah customers are demanding though
<froud> everything comes at the last minute
<froud> we need it yesterday
<jeffsch> hey froud: from the scrollback -- <froud> something in the CSS I think I dont get the same problem here
<jeffsch> any hints as to what I should look for in the gnome css?
<froud> no I did not lok at it
<jeffsch> ok. i will look into it on fri or sat
<froud> k
<jsgotangco> hey jeffsch im almost done with my styleguide section (international.xml) i'll commit the full draft later
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you look at the equivalent section on the gnome styleguide for international.xml? its good!
<mdke> (morning all)
<jsgotangco> mdke: of course
<mdke> nice
<mdke> i'm a big fan of copying stuff that's already been done well...
<mdke> on the userguide I've been copying stuff from all over the place ;)
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> see you guys later
<jsgotangco> oh we have a meeting later btw
<jsgotangco> see you then
<k31th> Yo!
<mdke> hi apokryphos, rob^, enrico 
<rob^> hey
<apokryphos> hi :)
<rob^> meeting in about 6 hrs?
<enrico> hi
<apokryphos> mdke: any idea who the anti-ubuguide wiki fanatic is? ;-)
<rob^> apokryphos, what are you refering to?
<apokryphos> rob^: someone who keeps putting in that "All information on Ubuntuguide.org is present on the wiki in clearer and expanded form."
<rob^> oh
<rob^> well I guess they should be using the wiki before using ubuguide
<apokryphos> Agreed. I'll be one of the first to echo the distress that people feel toward Ubuntuguide, but we shouldn't have to lie to get people to use the Wiki 8)
<rob^> hehe
* rob^ pats the faq guide
* apokryphos sees kudos as the potential alternative; very helpful/understanding author
<rob^> is there a link?
<apokryphos> Heh, where's ubotu when you need him ;-). 
<apokryphos> http://kudos.berlios.de
<rob^> well seeing as the faq guide is profiled for both ubuntu and kubuntu, there is no reason why we couldnt add the info from KUDOS
<apokryphos> Sure
<rob^> as it is we dont have much kde stuff in they yet anyway
<apokryphos> rob^: froud still the only dedicated kubuntu doccer?
<rob^> I think so
<apokryphos> Not doing any real KDE documentation at the moment, so I could probably help :)
<rob^> I used to be a KDE doccer, but I haven't used KDE in a long time..
<apokryphos> Did some Kubuntu documentation for Kynaptic, but had other complications in life then, so didn't do too much..
<apokryphos> rob^: always time to come back to the light ;-)
<rob^> heh
<rob^> I like gnome too much..
<apokryphos> :)
<rob^> well its 2 am here, meetings at 8am.. 
<rob^> I hope I get up :)
<apokryphos> rob^: set KAlarm :P
* apokryphos looks and finds that it exists
<rob^> I have BABYalarm :)
<rob^> works a treat
<apokryphos> cool
<rob^> I didnt think there was a noise more annoying then an alarm clock, until I had kids
<rob^> just having a squiz at kudos, there is some good general stuff in there we could use
<apokryphos> rob^: yeah, definitely. The guy has very ambitious plans for it
<rob^> what like?
<apokryphos> rob^: unfortunately he's not doing anything for a few weeks because of very serious events in his life :(
<apokryphos> rob^: full explanations on all the answers, buildscripts for many things etc. etc.
<rob^> why does he not just contribute to the docteam with it?
<apokryphos> rob^: bigger plans, I guess :)
<rob^> its GFDL anyway
<apokryphos> > The thing is, my ultimate focus is on helping with the propagation of Linux among the grand masses. Kubuntu is not an end itself, but a means I've chosen as the platform for this goal. As such, I want to provide an answer for the skill and interest scope of the grand masses (i.e. for people who needs almost every desktop functionality with next to no under-the-hood knowledge). IIRC there are more than 700 million desktop users (accordin
<apokryphos> prepare a solution that, together with Kubuntu, would appeal to at least 100M of them so much so that they would possibly consider switching from Windows to Linux. Even if I can't succeed, may be I can serve as a "proof of concept" so that more capable ones develop really good solutions for the grand masses.
<apokryphos> Heh, pretty long it looks there... that's a quote
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> but like I said, why not get it included in some form or other in the official documentation?
<rob^> hes not making money off it.
<apokryphos> rob^: I don't think that's an issue for him
<rob^> yeah thats right
<rob^> ah it doesnt matter
<rob^> I had better get some sleep.
<rob^> night
<apokryphos> 'night
<froud> apokryphos: if you would like to contribute to Kubuntu-docs start here http://lnix/~froud
<apokryphos> froud: unknown host 
<froud> http://lnix.net/~froud/
<froud> kubuntu-docs-5.10-0.X_all is uploaded to nightly build system once a week
<froud> I update the web site whenever there are changes in the src
<froud> gen 1 a day
<apokryphos> froud: wow, a lot of great stuff there
<apokryphos> froud: why isn't that stuff on kubuntu.org?
<apokryphos> Seems like a shame actually that we have two people both writing such similar stuff and not working together; lot of stuff mentioned in both docs
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> apokryphos, i made a /talk page for discussions of that page on the wiki
<apokryphos> mdke: yeah, dropped a comment instead of going round in circles
<froud> It will be in time
<mdke> apokryphos, cool
<apokryphos> froud: any part you'd recommend me look at/take-a-wack-at-writing-for specifically? :)
<froud> no there is so much anyone can do, see the K User Guide status report
<froud> Attention should go on the Kuserguide
<apokryphos> froud: what's the methodology with i.e. documentation on kicker or other apps etc? Written to supplement the KDE Docs?
<froud> apokryphos: good question. http://lnix.net/~froud/kuserguide/C/pr01s05.html
<apokryphos> or a briefer overview?
* apokryphos looks
<mdke> apokryphos, by the way you may be able to talk to Seveas about the NewUsersNetworkGuidelines page, I believe he is involved in the project
<apokryphos> mdke: heh, yeah, I know he's a strong aficionado of anti-ubuntuguidism
<mdke> i don't know about that
<apokryphos> I just recall him being among the first telling people not to use it. I think he contacted the author himself; not entirely sure.
<apokryphos> froud: so the aim is to be Kubuntu based, right?
<mdke> apokryphos, i don't want to get into that discussion (OT) but I was just pointing you to him because he is involved with the NewUsersNetwork project
<froud> yes
<apokryphos> froud: kubuntu-default-settings doesn't alter KDE that much, so there wouldn't be too much to write on just that..
<apokryphos> mdke: sure, thanks.
<froud> kde-settings changes much
<apokryphos> froud: breezy? 
<apokryphos> I actually think it would be a bad idea to deviate too much from KDE itself...
<froud> yes see http://lnix.net/~froud/kquickguide/C/ch03s07.html
<apokryphos> people come to Kubuntu because it attempts to be *the* KDe distro
* froud just writes it :-)
<apokryphos> froud: that would change kcontrol a lot clearly, but not so much kate/kicker etc. 
<apokryphos> froud: sorry, I don't mean to press, just wandering here
<venda> no good questions
<mdke> heh
<venda> very good
<jjesse> looking at the screen shots i like the system settings a lot better then kcontrol settings
<apokryphos> looks a lot like a few suggestions that have been put forward on kdelook
<venda> apokryphos: see http://www.lnix.net/~froud/#devnotes
<venda> apokryphos: can't say they are definitive, but I have tried to gather from Riddell what will be changing
<venda> kicker etc remains much the same
<venda> perhaps a system menu
<apokryphos> venda: cool, thanks -- a little there, that's good :)
<venda> apokryphos: venda = froud
<apokryphos> Is there no estimated time for release for Kapture? Are we gonna have time to go that way? :P
<venda> apokryphos: no idea
<apokryphos> venda: oh; thought there were two kubuntu doccers for a sec ;-)
<venda> I have not heard any news
<venda> I comment in the status reports
<apokryphos> right
<venda> things not sure of or know will change etc
<venda> much in kubuntu is in flux
<apokryphos> venda: I think I'll read a bit more to pick up the style then maybe go for some stuff on the ug
<apokryphos> venda: it's worth noting that my docbook skills are a little primitive, so you may have to bear with me a little at first =)
<venda> sure, ideas etc all welcome
<venda> no worries
<apokryphos> I'll likely start later on today, thanks! :) 
* apokryphos is off for food now
<venda> if you can checkout from svn, hack, patch it will be good
* venda feels hunger pains too
<apokryphos> venda: have some generla knowledge with svn, yup. I'll read up if I can't do any, no problem.
<venda> k
<mdke> apokryphos, there is a cool step by step guide on the wiki in the Docteam area
<mdke> actually
<mdke> where the hell is it
<venda> apokryphos: while writing, take into consideration that we have a drop of upstream in the repos
<venda> this means we can make selective use of docs from KDE
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<mdke> ah there it is
* apokryphos bookmarks
<venda> pls bring back for the hasty to the home page of the docteam
<jjesse> quick question, i'm reloading kubuntu on my laptop this weekend, do i stay with hoary release or go to breezy?
<jjesse> i know that was off topic
<venda> jjesse: stay hoary and update to kde 3.4.1
<jjesse> venda thanks will do
<venda> deb http://kubuntu.org/hoary-kde341 hoary-updates main
<venda> breezy is wonky right now
<venda> better use it under qemu
<venda> one minute stuff works and next is does not
* venda goes in search of food
* mgalvin is eating while reading review ;)
<mgalvin> has there been any word on commit access for rob^, myself, and the others who have been submitting patches lately
<venda> I did ping mdz
<abelli> ciao
<mdke> ciao abelli 
<rob^> the meeting is at 2200z right?
<judax> I was just going to ask that, I have 2203UTC
<rob^> ditto
<judax> mdke: ping
<mdke> argh
<mdke> good point
<rob^> :)
<judax> hehe
<rob^> o.O
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-20
<mdke> lets go then
<mdke> hey burgs
<mdke> -meeting
<mdke> Burgundavia!
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> right now?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> 25 mins in
<mdke> ;)
<Burgundavia> someone want to check over my rewrite of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AudioCDCreation
<Burgundavia> what does this do? = [Dashboard] : Firefox =
<shane__> I am having trouble with installing a linksys usb adapter. can anyone help? Please.
<mdke> you are a LEGEND
<mgalvin> Burgundavia, i'll take a peek, i gotta read the log for the meeting anyway
<mdke> shane__, #ubuntu can help
<mdke> Burgundavia, i came across that page today and noticed it was out of date. Link it on UserDocumentation pls :) and thanks!
<shane__> I have tried there, but too much chatter and nobody responds.
<shane__> I have followed the wiki wireless instructions.
<mdke> shane__, i am no expert, but I have found "dmesg" very useful for troubleshooting wireless
<shane__> what is dmesg?
<mdke> shane__, its a command
<shane__> I have only been running linux for 3 days.
<mdke> shane__, it tells you what is going on deep within your system ;)
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> if I were you I would try the forum for help, and tell them what steps you have followed
<shane__> I see. 
<shane__> I ran dmesg and it sure puts out a lot of info.
<mdke> ;)
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AcrobatHowTo
<Burgundavia> rewritten
<shane__> I found where it configured my usb thumb drive.
<mdke> Burgundavia, YOU ARE A GOD
<Burgundavia> most of the docs on the wiki suck
<Burgundavia> they are too long
<Burgundavia> look at the diff for the acrobat one
<shane__> Where do you go for good docs?
<rob^> Burgundavia, on AudioCDcreation, Horay does, Gnomebaker.
<Burgundavia> gnomebaker doesn't appear to be in the hoary repos anymore
<Burgundavia> can you still install it?
<rob^> I have it installed..
<Burgundavia> packages.ubuntu.com says no
<mdke> shane__, forum, wiki, ubuntuguide.org
<Burgundavia> can you do "apt-cache -policy gnomebaker" for me?
<rob^> its in universe
<Burgundavia> hmm,that is odd
<Burgundavia> must have messed up my search
<rob^> rob@rob:~$ apt-cache policy gnomebaker
<rob^> gnomebaker:
<rob^>   Installed: 0.3-3
<rob^>   Candidate: 0.3-3
<rob^>   Version table:
<rob^>  *** 0.3-3 0
<rob^>         500 http://au.archive.ubuntu.com hoary/universe Packages
<Burgundavia> done
<rob^>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
<Burgundavia> fixed it
<rob^> sorry for pasting
<rob^> np
<rob^> thanks
<Burgundavia> can I merge https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
<Burgundavia> why did these NewUser stuff appear anyway?
<mdke> Burgundavia, afraid not
<mdke> that is their own initiative
<mdke> they are writing a version of the ubuntuguide.org
<Burgundavia> gah
<Burgundavia> why?
<Burgundavia> I am fixing AddingRepos right now
<mdke> there is a new team called "New User Network"
<Burgundavia> what?
<mdke> it is even a team in launchpad
<Burgundavia> why all these duplication of effot?
<mdke> you don't wanna know my view about it
<mdke> its not repeatable
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> can I be bold then?
<mdke> Burgundavia, not easily, the team has been approved by the CC
<Burgundavia> what????
<Burgundavia> excuse me?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> its an official team
<Burgundavia> that is total and complete crack
<Burgundavia> I can see a new team,but more sources?
<Burgundavia> s/sources/docs
<mdke> agreed
<mdke> the team essentially afaics has the purpose of "officialising" people who help in irc and on the forum and on the wiki
<Burgundavia> ah
<mdke> which no doubt makes them feel cool
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<mdke> but which caused a division of effort
<Burgundavia> we don't need more wiki docs because of it
<jsgotangco> its crack
<Burgundavia> the ubotu in #ubuntu now points to these NewUser guide crap
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> it used to be NewbieGods
<Burgundavia> I pulled jasoncohnen in here the other day to talk about it
<Burgundavia> but I ended up not being here when he did show up
<Burgundavia> just pinged him again
<mdke> i've talked to mez and Seveas a little about it
<mdke> it has had certain undesirable side effects
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> one of which is the duplication of documentation
<Burgundavia> it sould be clear that documentation in the wiki is our preview
<Burgundavia> if the NewUser people want to help in #ubuntu and the forums, and point to our docs, that is fine
<Burgundavia> ok, I have removed the non-graphical ways of adding repos from AddingRepos
<mdke> Burgundavia, see also http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=47739
<Burgundavia> read it
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> people seem to misunderstand why we don't like ubuntuguide.org
<mdke> well i'm not surprised
<mdke> there is not enough love going on, and too much division
<mdke> people are too quick to say negative stuff instead of explaining patiently
<Burgundavia> I am going to write a reply there
<mdke> okies
<Burgundavia> as my name carries the "ubuntu doc team" beside it, it should have some weight
<mdke> heh
<mdke> look forward to your reply
<mdke> i gtg to bed
<jsgotangco> nite
<jsgotangco> i gotta start work
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> ill just check the log later
<jsgotangco> and make a summary
<jsgotangco> update DocteamProjects as well
<jsgotangco> brb
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> I am little concerned about what ubotu is spitting out
* cafuego trips on the way in and bumps his head
<Burgundavia> that ntfs thing really concerns me
<Burgundavia> you offer a script without explanation
<cafuego> Howso? Much like a wiki, people can add stuff if it works for them.
<Burgundavia> what I would love if you would point to a wiki page that we (the doc team) can edit
<Burgundavia> the ubotu is a closed thing to us
<cafuego> Burgundavia: Well, you can always modify the factoid and point it at a wiki page, that's a trivially easy command. '/msg ubotu no, <keyword> is <new explanation>'
<Burgundavia> can I suggest an idea for the bot?
<rob^> Burgundavia, yes people are filling it full of crap
<Burgundavia> only allow links to ubuntu wiki pages
<Burgundavia> anything else gets tossed
<rob^> like yesterday, someone added !gay
<Burgundavia> indeed
<cafuego> Burgundavia: That's not very practical, there are other explanations for things (acronyms etc) that don't need wiki links.
<Burgundavia> I think I might not have explained myself very well
<cafuego> Burgundavia: A bit of vigilance by responsible adults can keep most crap out of the bot.
<Burgundavia> if you add a link, make it it a wiki link
<Burgundavia> non-linked explanations are fine
<Burgundavia> such as the !usrepos one
<cafuego> ie: check for http and if not wiki then trash it?
<rob^> Burgundavia, maybe an acl is needed for the bot, or an approval process?
<Burgundavia> check if not ubuntu.com or ubuntlinux.org
<Burgundavia> becuase bugzilla links are ok to
<cafuego> rob^: whoa, who's going to code that? ;-)
<Burgundavia> such as for the usrepos one
<rob^> cafuego, well, it would solve a lot
<Burgundavia> I have played with a few bots that have acls
<cafuego> Burgundavia: My main reason for this one is that I can fetch and search package listings for files/depends.
<Burgundavia> cafuego, that is very cool
<Burgundavia> and i like that
<Burgundavia> just be careful where you point to, and with what explanations
<cafuego> Additional features is all very well, but my knowledge of perl is fairly negligable.
<Burgundavia> exactly why we don't recommend ubuntguide.org anymore
<cafuego> I'm sure they're ready to shoot me on #perl ;-)
<Burgundavia> thanks for running it
<cafuego> I'll be quite happy to check if I can do some ACL thingie for adding URIs, but it might be a while.
<Burgundavia> just got to be careful about what we hand out
<rob^> probably, but cool never the less
<Burgundavia> can you post a dump of what the bot responds to somwhere?
<cafuego> I did manage to add a !wiki command
<Burgundavia> say a wikipage for something?
<cafuego> Burgundavia: Just a CSV dump? I could do you an RSS feed of all factoids... there's a web interface on http://ubuntu.cc.com.au/ wtm.
<Burgundavia> no, the web interface is fine
<rob^> shame we cant edit them from there
<rob^> :)
<cafuego> rob^: That's trivial to implement actually ;-)
<rob^> cool
<rob^> with acl though?
<cafuego> rob^: My normal fee is $165/h ;-)
<rob^> heh
* rob^ points to google
<rob^> couldnt help it
<Burgundavia> all right
<rob^> well I better be off, got to do the shopping
<Burgundavia> hmm, I have issues with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideMultimedia
<Burgundavia> but no idea how to fix it
<rob^> I have issues with nug
<Burgundavia> new user guide should cease to exist
<Burgundavia> but now ubotu doesn't point to NewUserGuideAddingRepos CLI stuff
<Burgundavia> it now points to the graphical one
<rob^> help.ubuntulinux.org should be good
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> coming soon, RSN
<Burgundavia> bbl
<rob^> k
<rob^> same
* cafuego adds search
<cafuego> (badly)
<rob^> cafuego, I think I can scrape together $5, that will give you 2 minutes or so to implement the changes :)
<rob^> you said trivial..
<cafuego> rob^: yes, it does mean anyone else can also edit the factoids ;-)
<rob^> i might have another $5 for an acl.
<rob^> :P
<cafuego> with hilights
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> the meeting was finished
<Burgundavia> but I had some queries regarding the NewUserGuide stuff
<jasoncohen> lol, i always get the message too late
<jasoncohen> ok, shoot
<rob^> heh
<Burgundavia> basically, it is a duplication of effort
<rob^> Burgundavia, that is what I said
<rob^> I agree
<Burgundavia> can I merge https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
<Burgundavia> I would like to kill the first page
<rob^> why not, if its relevent
<Burgundavia> and I have fixed the 2nd page
<Burgundavia> but I understand the NewUser people are an official team now
<rob^> since when?
<Burgundavia> basically, I want the new user people to leave docs to us
<rob^> ditto
<jsgotangco> rob^, its in launchpad
<rob^> oh ok
<jsgotangco> (sabdfl must have created it)
<jasoncohen> Burgundavia, how would they be merged? the point of my page was really to make it easier for users to enable all the repositories that are needed for multimedia codecs/apps- not as a general guide
<rob^> yeah, it is a duplication of effort though
<Burgundavia> rob^, please
<Burgundavia> basically, there is no need for lots of little docs
<Burgundavia> that say that same thing
<rob^> Burgundavia, I agree
<rob^> New user people are just making an admin nightmare
<Burgundavia> so we fix the existing pages
<Burgundavia> and point them around
<jasoncohen> rob^, well, it's partly a duplication but on the adding repositories guide that shows/tells you how to add hoary extras 
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen, at the bottom of addingrepos, we point to restricted formats
<rob^> its a pretty simple process anyway jasoncohen 
<Burgundavia> which tells them how to do it
<jasoncohen> i'm not against the other pages. i mean- i actually added the screenshots to the adding repositories page for hoary
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen, also, the newuseraddingrepos advocates the commandline
<rob^> having two pages on the subject is a waste of time and effort
<Burgundavia> which is very non-ubuntu and quite scary for new users
<jasoncohen> Burgundavia, only because i find it easier - i can add a synaptic section
<jasoncohen> Burgundavia, why scary?
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen, that doesn't fix the fundamental problem
<Burgundavia> which is CLI and duplication of effort
<Burgundavia> so what I am trying to do, is say this "work with the doc team on this, not in parallel"
<jasoncohen> i don't see it that way. this has to be the #1 or #2 problem i hear on #ubuntu
<rob^> Burgundavia, I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees it that way
<jasoncohen> clearly, other people didn't find the general docs clear enough
<Burgundavia> all the doc team sees it as duplication
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen, then fix the existing docs
<jasoncohen> users find my multimedia guide simple & to the point
<jsgotangco> just merge them what's the problem
<Burgundavia> I find your userguide long
* jsgotangco goes back to work
<Burgundavia> here is how I see the process working
<jasoncohen> because they want to know what they need to add repositories for multimedia stuff in one place- with specific - not general instructions
<rob^> and the faq I'm working on will cover everything newusersguide people are doing also
<jasoncohen> that's why i added the new page
<Burgundavia> new users helps new users
<Burgundavia> identifies areas that our docs are weak
<rob^> and its official
<Burgundavia> works with the doc team to fix them
<Burgundavia> not, writes their own docs
<jasoncohen> have you told the people in #ubuntu-nun ?
<Burgundavia> no
<jasoncohen> Burgundavia, well, can you give a preview of how you would merge it?
<Burgundavia> I would kill it, basically
<Burgundavia> merge the useful stuff into adding repos and restircted formats
<jasoncohen> if there was a TOC then it could be linked to directly and have both general & specific instructions on one page
<rob^> jasoncohen, there is going to be one soon
<Burgundavia> we need short wiki pages
<jasoncohen> i don't think this would fit into restricted formats...the info contradicts
<Burgundavia> and linked extensively
<rob^> jasoncohen, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation
<rob^> preview
<Burgundavia> then we fix restricted
<jasoncohen> for example- i tell users to just install libdvdcss2 for DVDs and to install w32codecs if they want divx/xvid/wmv/quicktime support. the restricted formats guide just says not to use those formats.
<Burgundavia> right now NewUserAddingRepos is no better than ubuntuguide
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen, there are some legal issues that need to be sorted out as well
<rob^> jasoncohen, in that we shouldnt mention it at all..
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen, we are the doc team, we write docs
<Burgundavia> nun tells us what docs to write and how to clarify them
<Burgundavia> is that a good division of effort?
<jasoncohen> well- i couldn't mention that in restricted formats. it's official and the recommendation is legally fishy
<jasoncohen> but i can unofficially
<Burgundavia> it is on the official wiki
<jsgotangco> in an official ubuntu wiki?
<Burgundavia> thus it is official
<Burgundavia> the courts will not quible between your page and ours
<jasoncohen> yes, ubuntu clearly states info on the wiki are the author's opinions and not ubuntu
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<Burgundavia> then why not merge into the existing docs?
<jsgotangco> good point
<jasoncohen> well, i don't have a problem if it's merged with a TOC as long as the instructions are specific & not general
<Burgundavia> they can be as specific as they need to be
<Burgundavia> you need to tell us where we are falling down
<jasoncohen> new users were constantly asking about this issue. 
<jasoncohen> ok, well, i'm not opposed to adding it to addingrepositories then
<Burgundavia> but can agree that nun will not create an new docs?
<jasoncohen> you'll have to speak to nun directly. i'm a member of nun. i don't speak for everyone.
<Burgundavia> and that we can remove the existing page that are prefixed with NewUser that we have docs for alrady?
<Burgundavia> ok
<jasoncohen> can you show me a preview first?
<jsgotangco> too much freedom! heh
<Burgundavia> you can fix it once I am done
<Burgundavia> if you disagree
<rob^> eh bring on help.u.org
<jasoncohen> ok
<jasoncohen> btw, wha'ts wrong with linking to AddingRepositoriesHowto?
<tiglionabbit> it doesn't have a ready sources.list, with a hoary-extras mirror in it
<rwabel> hi
<Burgundavia> salut
<rwabel> I get problem with conflicts in UbuntuDocumentation
<rwabel> Edit conflict - other version:
<rwabel> Edit conflict - your version:
<Burgundavia> that would have been me
<Burgundavia> what were you trying to do/
<Burgundavia> ?
<rwabel> I've added a new howto
<rwabel> americas army
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> add it now
<rwabel> mhh it's already added but the conflict is still there
<Burgundavia> fix it
<rwabel> ah I see, I can just remove it...I'm quit new to the wiki stuff
<robitaille> hummm...it seems "my" old IBMJava wiki page has been removed from the Java page.  But I'm still on the RestrictedFormats page :)
<jsgotangco> heretic!
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> we are having a good discussion in #ubuntu-nun about what target audience for nun
<Burgundavia> some people don't understand that we are targeting grandma
<jsgotangco> i will join
<robitaille> so we don'grandma 
<robitaille> tso we don't want grandma to use IBM's Java?
* robitaille thinks his typing is bad tonight...
<Burgundavia> I have been going to town on the wiki
<Burgundavia> robitaille, you think I have been doing useful things?
<jsgotangco> wow are you guys talking about what to write or how to organize what is currently written?
<Burgundavia> a little of both
<robitaille> haven't checked your changes yet.  But did noticed you are using "CoreyBurger2"
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> so does mdke
<Burgundavia> he uses MatthewEast2
<jsgotangco> seems a lot of duplication has been happening
<robitaille> why?
<robitaille> (for the "2")
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> I had an account on the old wiki and launchpad
<Burgundavia> probably it
<robitaille> jsgotangco: I keep thinking I should do a bit of work on the Wiki.  But life keeps getting in the way (and work that happen to be scheduled at the same time than Ubuntu meetings...)
<jsgotangco> same here im beginning to hate my work although the pay is good at the moment heh
<robitaille> personally I love my work...but the pay could be better
<robitaille> (but at least I have a job...)
<Burgundavia> grrr
<Burgundavia> jobs are nice
<jsgotangco> i would have wanted to stay in my current job after the contract if it was possible though
<jsgotangco> but im also talking to a prospective employer at the same time and if they would give me an offer, i definitely won't refuse
<jsgotangco> (although if that happens that would mean i have to be low-key in ubuntu)
<Burgundavia> that would suck
<jsgotangco> well yeah it would be a conflict of interest
<robitaille> jsgotangco: don't do it...don't go work for Microsoft :)
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> i'm currently on contract with Oracle
<jsgotangco> but i've been talking with people from the local Novell office
<Burgundavia> cool
<jsgotangco> but the position is evangelical in nature
<Burgundavia> that would be cool
<jsgotangco> hence it would be a riot if i speak for them and present using ubuntu
<jsgotangco> yeah i do hope it happens though
<robitaille> do we have an official definitition of which pages are to be put in the "CategoryDocumentation"?
<robitaille> (just wondering if IPodder fits in that category or not
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> looks like docs to me
<Burgundavia> might need a "Crack" warning label though
<jsgotangco> oh great the discussion is now about writing
<Burgundavia> I am just going to keep on plowing ahead
<Burgundavia> and take it to the CC if something bigger erupts
<robitaille> but then GnomeLaunchBox has that CategoryDoc label.
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, aye
<jsgotangco> i will brb for a while then
<mgalvin> done for this evening in case anyone has time to commit those, thnx in advance
<mgalvin> g'night all
<rob^> holy heck, I was just reading my log of #ubuntu-nun from the last few hours, funny stuff
<rob^> Burgundavia, I'm sure you had to repeat yourself about 50 times!
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob^> I just got back :)
<jsgotangco> is the log in fabbione's site?
<rob^> no, just what I had in xchats scrollback
<jsgotangco> well from what i understand when i stayed there briefly there were talking about writing instead of guiding which is what NUN is all about
<rob^> yeah, but the problem is they are just duplicating effort
<rob^> they would be much better off improving what is already there
<jsgotangco> exactly
<rob^> maybe even join the wikiteam..
<jsgotangco> having sites like ubuntuguide.org are very unavoidable and thats what's community is all about
<jsgotangco> but as long as it resides on official servers then there should be ground rules on these
<rob^> agreed
<jsgotangco> as a distro, we are all in growing pains as a community but it doesn't have to be like the wild wild west
<rob^> and if they are going to sit in official irc channels they should refer to the official documentation where possible
<jsgotangco> right
<rob^> if they dont think its up to scratch, improve whats there.. etc 
<jsgotangco> so if the bot is spewing up stuff like !gay then we have a problem
<rob^> yeah.. like yesterday
<rob^> how does one go about getting ops on officical #ubuntu channels?
<jsgotangco> i really like the aggressiveness on their side which only shows how enthusiastic these people are
<rob^> hehe I put a #
<jsgotangco> i think the ops thing has been discussed before in previous CC meetings
<jsgotangco> i really don't know who owns the channel at the moment
<rob^> which I applaud, but it needs to be in the right direction
<jsgotangco> right
<rob^> cool
<jsgotangco> you can probably ask bob2 or daniels
<rob^> jdub owns it
<jsgotangco> ahh
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> I want to rewrite the beginning parts of the faq guide to better explain what apt-get, sudo etc is..
<rob^> I think I might get an early night tonight and get cracking tomorrow, my brain is tired :)
<jsgotangco> rob^: are you in AU?
<rob^> yes
<rob^> why is that?
<jsgotangco> just a guess
<rob^> good one
<robitaille> I don't think I'll ever make it to a doc-team meeting.  Today was during work and I was too busy. And for the next one, I'll be on vacation camping, away from network access
<Burgundavia> ouch
<robitaille> 6 days camping...no computers.  It'll be great :)
* venda gets visions of withdrawal symptoms
<venda> African Greetings everybody
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> i'd like that just roaming around without thinking of computers and all
<robitaille> beach...doing sand castles with the kids.  Wondering how many hundred of emails will be accumulating in my mailboxes, both at work and at home during that time.
* venda shudders at the thought
* Burgundavia needs to get away. his gf wants to go camping...
<robitaille> I could always handwrite some docs....
<jsgotangco> i'd completely dump computers if i was in temptation island or something similar
<jsgotangco> and just rely on smoke signals
<venda> I'm getting nervous at the thought of not having my computer
<robitaille> I did it for 7 days last summer (cottage in the mountains);  I surprised myself how I coped with the change in routine.  
<venda> al my laptop needs is female reproductive organs and I can do without my wife :-)
<jsgotangco> i i had a small store i wouldn't need a computer. i'll just trust the abacus which we were luckly to have been trained when we were kids
<jsgotangco> venda: yuck
<jsgotangco> venda: silicon doesn't even sweat
* robitaille still has the slide ruler of his dad... but never learned the abasus
<robitaille> s/abasus/abacus
<jsgotangco> i was looking at my peer at the nearby cubicle and he was using PhotoStory 3
<venda> arghhh .... got my work cut out for me next week. Why can't customers plan, why must everything be done tomorrow?
<jsgotangco> its a really nice MS app and its free
<jsgotangco> i wish we had something like that on gnome or kde
<venda> jsgotangco: is it open source?
<jsgotangco> venda: who cares for the average user
<jsgotangco> it works for them
<venda> then its not free
<venda> :-)
<venda> but yes, Linux games are lacking
<robitaille> brb   (rebooting into Breezy)
<jsgotangco> its no game
<jsgotangco> its a photo app
<venda> Like make your digital photo album?
<jsgotangco> no it makes slideshows for your photos into different formats
<jsgotangco> it even has its own music editor
<venda> cool
<jsgotangco> i just dont usewindows that much so its proabably the reason why i enjoyed using it
<venda> there are somethings that windows does better
<jsgotangco> are there docbook editors for windows that dont use java?
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> how do you parse them iin windows anyway
<jsgotangco> or osx even
<venda> java rocks, but yes you do get structured editors for windows
<venda> that are not java
<Burgundavia> bah java
<Burgundavia> non free crap
<venda> jsgotangco: the toolchain is also available on windows
<venda> xsltproc
<jsgotangco> well java is inescapable for me since i work with oracle atm
<venda> jsgotangco: dont listen to Burgundavia, Java rocks dude
<jsgotangco> venda: i studied java in 2001 with IBM heh
<venda> did anyone see the write up on my favorite XML Editor, Oxygen in Linux Format
<jsgotangco> and the stuff assigned to me from oracle runs in java
<jsgotangco> (although i am no good as a java programmer)
<venda> I am no programmer, yet, but I just like having apps that run on any JVM
<robitaille> back in Hoary...well it seems tonight upgrade killed my Breezy's X...again. sigh
<jsgotangco> does X even work heh
<venda> I need a cross-platform toolchain because I never know which platform my customers products will run on
<venda> robitaille: yes its a major blocke for me 2
<jsgotangco> what would the toolchain then be if its osx?
<venda> I was complaining bitterly about it in the meeting
<venda> jsgotangco: use java
<venda> Xerces, Xalan, Saxon, Apache FOP
<venda> and a java based editor
<rob^> hey, I added https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbotuFactoids to the wiki
<rob^> what do you all think?
<jsgotangco> oXygen looks expensive
<venda> no its not :-)
<venda> have you priced XML-Spy
<jsgotangco> xml spy is too expensive
<robitaille> someone created a new wiki page tonight about the Uboto:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbotuFactoids
<rob^> yeah, me
<jsgotangco> heh scrollback
<venda> Oxygen rocks on price
<robitaille> rob^:  just noticed it was you  after I typed my comment :)
<rob^> :)
<rob^> what do you think?
<jsgotangco> rob^: where's !gay hehehe *joke*
<rob^> haha
<venda> jsgotangco: you wont find an xmleditor with that feature set at that price anywhere else
<jsgotangco> oohhh it can do eclipise
<venda> yes, many people use the eclipse plugin
<robitaille> rob^: once it's complete, we should add that page to the #ubuntu topic
<venda> jsgotangco: btw, when you install it, it installs its own xml frameowrks, no need to setup anything
<venda> jsgotangco: which is really good when you need to get working fast on machines
<Burgundavia> I requested the ubotu owner do that
<jsgotangco> hmmm i will try an eval
<jsgotangco> and probably save for it when i would need it
<venda> enjoy, would like to know what you think
<rob^> Burgundavia, yeah, scratching an itch
<venda> jsgotangco: my user manual should help you, its a bit broken in th English because they now maintain it, but its still good
<jsgotangco> holy its $148
<rob^> robitaille, is basically is complete, it just a quick how to and list of factoids
<rob^> refers to both #ubuntu and #kubuntu too
<venda> jsgotangco: Oxygen has a 34% off special going now
<venda> that's the pro edition
<venda> but you could use the personal edition @ $48
<jsgotangco> venda: sponsor me :)
* jsgotangco hugs venda
<venda> Hmmmm, what's in it for me?
<venda> :-)
<venda> a hug, that's it
<venda> now if you open an office of InWords, I will sponsor more that just an XML Editor ;-)
* venda just reminds jsgotangco that he is waiting for jsgotangco's proposal
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> but i still have a contract
<jsgotangco> and i might move to another employer
<venda> so I have many.
<jsgotangco> and im not so sure how the flow of business of this kind is at the moment
<venda> jsgotangco: if its employment you want then I am not a good choice. If you want to be a business owner, then I can help. But you must decide what you want first
<venda> risk or less risk
<venda> my choice has high risks
<venda> but that is business
<venda> but then I command the limit of how much I can earn, not somebody else :-)
<jsgotangco> this is best spoken in priv heh
<venda> sure
* robitaille smells a story :)
<jsgotangco> haha
<rob^> heh
<venda> I must get my day started it's 09:38 and I am have just finished morning coffee
<robitaille> we're between friends here...no secrets between the ...humm...  dozen of people online at this hour :)
<Burgundavia> rofl
<mdke> Burgundavia, ping?
<judax> mdke: morning
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> mdke, here
<mdke> hi
<froud> morn
<Burgundavia> what is up?
<mdke> Burgundavia, I saw you removed the links to ubuntuguide and releasenotes from the UserDocumentation page
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> how come?
<Burgundavia> ubutunguide is crack and release notes are not useful for new users
<judax> froud-work: morning
<mdke> Burgundavia, the release notes are useful! they tell users what is in Ubuntu...
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> add them back in
<Burgundavia> maybe under their own section?
<mdke> hmm
<judax> Burgundavia: you got the ubuntuguide thread going again :)
<mdke> Burgundavia, also ubuntuguide may be crack, but it has information which the wiki doesn't have right now. even if it is crack, it is an undeniable truth that it has helped many users
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mdke> yeah that thread had just reached a good compromise...
<Burgundavia> oh geez
<Burgundavia> I did kick off a firestorm
<mdke> Burgundavia, anyway more importantly, how did you get on in NUN?
<Burgundavia> so so
<Burgundavia> nalioth supports me
<Burgundavia> jasonconen and taglion-ish doesn't
<mdke> what is the position?
<judax> <-- sleep time; it's 330am, night/morn all
<mdke> they want to write their own documents and don't want to work on the existing ones?
* judax has lost his mind
<Burgundavia> need to simplfy the existing docs
<Burgundavia> and merge the newuser stuff into the main docs
<mdke> i agree
<mdke> they are not interested in that?
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen and tag, I don't think they see the bigger picture yet
<Burgundavia> and don't understand why grandma is not interested in CLI
<mdke> Burgundavia, this is a real issue for us as documentation team. I suggest we talk to the Com Council and try and resolve it
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> cool
<Burgundavia> I am going to try and resolve it before the cc meeting though
<mdke> Seveas and Mez are reasonable people, so we can get communication going and sort this mess out
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'll help
<mdke> Burgundavia, what is the plan?
<Burgundavia> observe this stupidity
<Burgundavia> I edit NewUbuntuUsers, to make more sense
<Burgundavia> then tag takes his old copy and moves it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuQuickFAQs
<mdke> got it rolled back?
<mdke> oh even worse
<mdke> jesus christ
<Burgundavia> can you can the 2nd?
<Burgundavia> don't think i have delete rights on the wiki
<mdke> everyone does
<Burgundavia> how?
<Burgundavia> and that is scary
<mdke> i don't delete pages people want though
<mdke> yeah i know
<mdke> we haven't got around to sorting it yet
<Burgundavia> dead
<mdke> Other Actions --> Delete Page
<Burgundavia> saw it
<mdke> but don't delete pages that people want
<mdke> its rude
<Burgundavia> he created it because he was pissed off at me, not for any rational reason
<Burgundavia> and he couldn't see that what I was doing was rational
<Burgundavia> though others could, such as nalioth
<mdke> ok
<mdke> you need to explain to them the concept of a wiki
<Burgundavia> basically tag and jasonconen don't really understand how to write docs, to be blunt
<mdke> if they want static pages, they have to host them somewhere
<mdke> ok we really need to work towards maximising effort and getting -nun to work on the existing wiki pages
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> pretty much the whole doc team agrees
<Burgundavia> so it should be a slam dunk if it comes to the CC
<mdke> we need to get communication going with them
<mdke> Mez came in here when they started but we didn't have a proper discussion
<mdke> i can't do anything now but I will chat with them later
<mdke> Burgundavia, btw I'm glad you got involved because I had kind of avoided this issue so far and let them right, now I see its important we talk with them
<Burgundavia> I was thinking about RestrictedFormats
<Burgundavia> we need make that page more of a howto
<mdke> i agree that it is not user friendly right now
<Burgundavia> and make links to a FreeFormats page
<mdke> but it will improve quickly if someone starts... lots of people work on it
<Burgundavia> do you like that idea?
<mdke> yeah very much
<Burgundavia> basically, don't nag people ever other line about free formats
<mdke> although no screenshots!
<Burgundavia> huh?
<Burgundavia> restricted doesn't need them
<mdke> good
<mdke> cool
<mdke> okies, gtg, bbl
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> no I run into the issues of w32codecs
<Burgundavia> crap
<Burgundavia> so the consensus is that we cannot list w32codecs at all?
<Kinnison> Morning
<Burgundavia> morning Kinnison 
<Burgundavia> seems I back to my old ways
<Kinnison> hi burgey
<Burgundavia> stirring people up
* Kinnison tsks
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=255802#post255802
<Burgundavia> and ubuntu-nun
* Kinnison shakes his head
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=255852#post255852
<Burgundavia> my response
<Kinnison> heh
* Kinnison notes he still doesn't have Burgundavia on his jabber roster
<jsgotangco> hey Burgy don't stir up the natives heh
<Burgundavia> fuck
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, I have a jabber account
<Burgundavia> and I really love gossip
<jsgotangco> gossip?
<Burgundavia> jabber client
<jsgotangco> doesn't gaim do jabber as well?
<Burgundavia> possibly the simplest and most beautful irc client out there
<Burgundavia> for nun, I am simply going to push forward
<Burgundavia> for that forums issue, I have laid out what happened, and my position
<Burgundavia> gah
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> (NUN is supposed to be for guidance not writing anyways)
<Burgundavia> I am prepared to go the CC to get them to let us write docs, if that is what it takes
<jsgotangco> go for it
<Burgundavia> I am going to try to resolve it before then
<Burgundavia> but I seriously doubt whether some will come on boar
<Burgundavia> d
<rob^> thats their choice
<jsgotangco> come on board to where?
<rob^> write docs or not.
<jsgotangco> ah i got lost i had 3 nice female visitors today
<Burgundavia> poor man
* Burgundavia is taken, sadly, but not monogamously
<jsgotangco> yeah suppliers are the best
<jsgotangco> too bad i am married already but im not going to let that invitation for a badminton match get past me
<Burgundavia> rofl
* Burgundavia is a cameraman
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: is Gossip a jabber-only client?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> xchat can activate the fancy blinky thing
<Burgundavia> but it doesn't seem to know how to turn it off
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: what's your jabber.org account?
<Burgundavia> burgundavia
<Burgundavia> anywhere online is Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> sweet, my blog is now the first hit for burgundavia
<Burgundavia> followed by my wikipedia user page
<Burgundavia> my blog is also the first hit for Corey Burger
<Burgundavia> http://www.technorati.com/tag/Corey+Burger
<Burgundavia> I even have a technorati tag
<jsgotangco> brb need to switch to Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> night all
<mdke> hi all
<jsgotangco> mdke, hi
<jsgotangco> im tired i had a long day
* mdke gives jsgotangco a massage
<mdke> its all good
<mdke> my day yesterday was pretty shit
<jsgotangco> 3 nice ladies went into my office today
<mdke> hey
<mdke> you player!
<jsgotangco> hmmm? they were vendors
<jsgotangco> but im not going to deny their request for a badminton match
<mdke> hehe
<mdke> bikini badminton i hope
<jsgotangco> (oh yeah the UK duo whipped asia's arse last night)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> go UK!
<jsgotangco> but it was no match, after all, UK has the #1 mixed doubles team in the world
<jsgotangco> and they were playing against #24
<mdke> ah
<jsgotangco> http://news.inq7.net/sports/index.php?index=1&story_id=43543
<jsgotangco> i got to watch Pi Hongyan play at last heh
<mdke> i bet watching pros play badminton is cool
<mdke> they must be fast as hell
<jsgotangco> indeed considering its the fastest raquet sport at the moment
<mdke> really?
<mdke> even squash?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> badminton is the fastest
<jsgotangco> i guess its because of the shuttle
<mdke> yeah guess so
<jsgotangco> the game is more popular in indonesia and malaysia
<jsgotangco> heck most of them are olympians
<mdke> its a good game, but the problem for me is that it can only be played indoors really
<mdke> so here its easier to play tennis because there are outdoor courts that everyone can use
<jsgotangco> oh its different in our case we dont have that much area for tennis courts and old warehouses here are converted to bandminton courts
<jsgotangco> theres not much golf courses in the city either
<jsgotangco> there are tons of snooker and pool halls though
* mdke nods
<mdke> bbl
<mdke> -it meeting
<jsgotangco> im going home too
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> night
<kbrooks> hEY.
<kbrooks> Hey*
<mdke> hiya
<jjesse> hiya
<kbrooks> I think you're right.
<kbrooks> Hence why I'm improving (the Java page) instead of creating new pages..
<mdke> kbrooks, :)
<mdke> that java page is one of the biggest targets for improvement ;)
<mdke> thanks for doing that
<kbrooks> I'd like some help in improving the page.
<kbrooks> You're very welcome, as always,
<mdke> we will try and help out
<jjesse> i could help reveiw it when finished
<mdke> but I want to resolve this NewUserGuide question first
<kbrooks> OK
<mgalvin> hi all
<jjesse> NewUserGuide is the one that encourages people not to use the unofficcial userguide right?
<mgalvin> jjesse, yes
<mdke> let's not get into that pls
<mgalvin> oh no not again ;)
<kbrooks> mdke: Question resolved?
<mdke> kbrooks, yes from my point of view I think it is
<kbrooks> OK
<mdke> apparently the point of the guide was never to write new documentation
<mdke> but instead to provide links to current wiki resources
<mdke> and work on those
<kbrooks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
<kbrooks> lets see if we all can pick a choice from there and say 'this is better'.
<mdke> kbrooks, method 1
<mdke> gets my vote
<kbrooks> mez:
<kbrooks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
<kbrooks> mdke, Why?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> because lots of people tell me that is the way supported by the Ubuntu java team
<kbrooks> the problem is newbies.
<mdke> personally I used blackdown myself because I can't be bothered to get the build environment
<kbrooks> mdke, OK, well, i thought some choices were reundant...and removed them.
<kbrooks> redundant*
<mdke> fair enough
<kbrooks> I want to satisfy ALL users of Ubuntu.
<jjesse> is the wiki slow for others?
<jjesse> it always seems to be  slow for me :(
<mdke> jjesse, no, seems ok here
<kbrooks> ok here
<jjesse> still trying to load the link on java 
<mdke> kbrooks, so you removed blackdown?
<kbrooks> mdke, Yes. Sun Java is fine.
<mgalvin> jjesse, slow for me too
<kbrooks> all other Java implementations are not fine.
<jjesse> finally loaded, it looks nice kbrooks 
<kbrooks> ok, well
* kbrooks checks
<mgalvin> i know i missed some of this conversation but... what about gjc/gij, this works on breezy.
<kbrooks> read: breezy
<kbrooks> I reject the gnu java idea.
<kbrooks> It is not feasible.
<mgalvin> if people install eclipse from universe then gjc/gij gets installed and it works
<kbrooks> ...so?
<mgalvin> from what i have seen the two can interfere with each other
<kbrooks> Java and GCJ?
<mgalvin> yes, some java apps get confused
<kbrooks> I want  *one* Java implementation.
<mgalvin> ant for one
<kbrooks> Huh?
<mgalvin> ant can break if both jre/gij are installed, i have seen this happen many times
<mdke> and gij get's installed automatically with some things?
<kbrooks> that's the problem.
<kbrooks> mdke: Yes.
<mdke> who works on java with ubuntu?
<kbrooks> not me
<kbrooks> I want to meet him.
<mdke> well i'm sure that won't be a problem
<kbrooks> What?
<mdke> let's just find out who it is, then you can talk to them, explain the problem, and get confirmation on the best method
<mgalvin> there is #ubuntu-java
<kbrooks> Me? by myself?
<mdke> otherwise, try #ubuntu-motu
* kbrooks isnt very confident.
<mdke> kbrooks, sure, if you don't want to, mgalvin will do it
<mdke> right?
<mdke> kbrooks, everyone is friendly here
<kbrooks> We both should do it. :)
<mdke> ok
<mgalvin> i can surely help determine the right/best way of doing things
<kbrooks> Skywind, Hey.
<kbrooks> I can help with the Ubuntu documentation.
<kbrooks> I already have, in the past.
<kbrooks> Skywind, In case you are wondering.....
<Skywind> kbrooks, hi
<kbrooks> Hi.
<jsgotangco> salut
<Skywind> kbrooks, thank you  :)
<kbrooks> For?
<kbrooks> look at the Java page. that's my contribution.
<Skywind> for your "Hey" :)
<Skywind> I hear about ubuntu will use python to write init script? Is this true?
<Skywind> hehe
<kbrooks> No idea.
<Skywind> may be a canard, hoho
<jsgotangco> froud-away: hey?
<jsgotangco> hi enrico
<kbrooks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
<kbrooks> Anyone like it?
* jsgotangco checks
<jsgotangco> kbrooks: i think its a good start
<jsgotangco> but java as a backport is questionable because of the legality of repackaging it instead of pulling it from Sun's website
<mgalvin> jsgotangco, just a heads up, we have been discussing this on # -java also
<jsgotangco> even on -devel heh
<jsgotangco> im gonna sleep hehe
<jsgotangco> see you later
<mgalvin> g'night
<mgalvin> l8r
<jsgotangco> i didnt know ubuntu-java had an active population
<mgalvin> yea, there a few people there jbaily, wasabi, me, and some others
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> might drop there one time
<jsgotangco> well laters then
<mgalvin> later
<mgalvin> could someone possibly apply my patches?
<kbrooks> uh
<froud> mgalvin: patches sent between 15:48 to 15:56 have been applied
<mgalvin> froud, cool, i just saw the emails, thanks
<froud> mgalvin: oops i JUST saw second patch on faqguide
<mgalvin> venda, sent a fix for faq guide to the list, its the missing part of that patch
<rwabel> hi
<rwabel> enyone who can help me out with icons in the wiki
<rwabel> especially an icon in a heading
<Burgundavia> robitaille is the best person to ask about that, rwabel 
<rwabel> thanks
<rwabel> robitaille: is it possible to put an icon in a heading in the wiki?
<robitaille> rwabel: hummm I have never tried.  it doesn't work?
<robitaille> rwabel:  indeed it doesn't work...let me check google.
<rwabel> thanks
<robitaille> rwabel:  didn't find anything. sorry.  but I'll keep my eyes open for a solution.
<rwabel> thanks, would be great to have that possibility
<rwabel> what kind of wiki system is this one?
<Burgundavia> moin
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-21
<rwabel> ok
<robitaille> I think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpPage  needs much love.  It's all based on the old wiki software...
<robitaille> rwabel:  according to someone in #moin, you cannot put any markup codes in a heading; thus no icons :(
<rwabel> robitaille: thanks for the info, that's sad :-(
<venda> African greetings
<jsgotangco> salut
<bassembg> hi room
<bassembg> how can i adjust my screen resolution
<jsgotangco> hmmm?
<jsgotangco> #ubuntu pls
<bassembg> yes
<jsgotangco> froud: hello
<bassembg> its too silent here
<jsgotangco>  understandable since its a weekend
<jsgotangco> and the docteam is quite small
<bassembg> i'm still new to linux
<bassembg> and teps
<jsgotangco> im going to get dinner first brb
<Mez> rob^ you here?
<Mez> oh, wait
<Mez> whos' CoreyBurger
<Mez> Burgundavia - you here?
<jsgotangco> hello
<JanC> it seems like bang_meta is disabled on the wiki ?
<kbrooks> Meh.
<Burgundavia> hmm?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-22
<mdke> hi all
<kbrooks> hi mdke 
<kbrooks> 'all questions are welcome'? huh?
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> kbrooks, ?
<mdke> hey corey
<mdke> how's it going?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> nun is starting to come around
<mdke> Burgundavia, the other day when I spoke to Mez he told me that the intention of the guide was not to write new documentation at all, but to provide links to existing documentation on the wiki. He said that perhaps people had misunderstood that and he would sort it out at their next meeting
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> and mez already killed one of their "docs"
<mdke> yes
<mdke> he suggested one of us attend the meeting too
<Burgundavia> I am going to be at the meeting, baring crazy life shit
<mdke> good
<Burgundavia> I had another crazy idea today
<Burgundavia> basically a computer recipe card, that sits in the kitchen and uses wireless to communicate with the home pc
<mdke> nice one
<Burgundavia> thus cook chooses recipe on the home computer and beams it to the computer
<mdke> it could run the gnome recipe app ;)
<Burgundavia> thinking of extending grecipes
<Burgundavia> as it can now run on windows
<mdke> really?
<Burgundavia> I think so
<mdke> awesome
<Burgundavia> figure I need a price point of about 100 dollars
<Burgundavia> would like a touchscreen, but don't know if that is doable
<mdke> its a lovely idea
<Burgundavia> think it would sell?
<mdke> if I had the money I'd back it
<Burgundavia> hmm, hdb might be interested
<Burgundavia> as it would run micro-ubuntu inside
<Burgundavia> hbd, rather
<mdke> yeah possibly
<mdke> do you have the expertise to make it?
<Burgundavia> I can do the sales
<Burgundavia> need to hire some people to do the actual engineering
* mdke nods
<mdke> kbrooks, what's up man?
<Burgundavia> in other news, I have finally subscribed to planetkde.org, to see what the other side is thinking
<mdke> heh
<mdke> dark side eh
<Burgundavia> no, the dark side is MS
<Burgundavia> the other side is DKE
<mdke> ;)
* Burgundavia is happy to find a new set of headphones, and have music flow once more
<mdke> i need to get my gnump3d server working again
<Burgundavia> I really don't understand people who use non-gettext translation stuff
<Burgundavia> why??
<JanC> "the other side" is a biker's PUB in Torhout, Belgium  :)
<Burgundavia> people claim that gettext is "limited"
<Burgundavia> is this true?
<JanC> yes, but most of the alternatives are limited too
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> are there plans to extend gettext?
<JanC> that won't be easy in some cases
<Burgundavia> Nikerabbit Burgundavia: it's grammar support is limited to plurals
<JanC> one potential problem I know is where the original language (mostly English) has a word/sentence that has to be translated in 2 or more ways in other languages
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> any translation is not easy
<JanC> and other reasons to not use gettext are legacy systems of cource
<JanC> of course
<Burgundavia> this is not a legacy system we are talking about
<JanC> like OOo
<Burgundavia> mozilla rejected gettext as well
<JanC> yeah
<JanC> they use a more or less SGML/XML-specific format
<kbrooks> mdke, hanging out 
<Burgundavia> what advantage does that bring?
<mdke> kbrooks, what did you mean by " [23:09]  < kbrooks> 'all questions are welcome'? huh?
<JanC> probably because their UI is written in XML ?
<JanC> the XML parsers do the translation
<Burgundavia> are there technical advantages of the mozilla system of the gettext one
<Burgundavia> ?
<JanC> probably only in their specific case
<JanC> their translations use DTDs to define XML entities
<JanC> similar to &amp; --> "&" symbol
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I really don't understand translation
<Burgundavia> probably because I have never done it, being a mostly-mono lingual english Canuck
<JanC> :)
<JanC> I have done some English -> Dutch and one French -> Dutch translations
<JanC> and I'm on some translation mailing lists
<Burgundavia> ludde Burgundavia: gettext is not powerful enough for openttd
<Burgundavia> ludde Burgundavia: it has no support for genders, cases, recursive strings or any of the other things openttd uses
<JanC> that seems like they have rather special needs, but it's a good example that gettext can't be used everywhere...
<Burgundavia> a game
<JanC> or it would probably involve more work using gettext instead of their own system
<kbrooks> mdke, /topic
<mdke> kbrooks, yeah i see it. Did you have a question?
<Burgundavia> anybody here setup a synaptics touchpad?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SynapticsTouchpadHowto this page needs some help
<rob^> hey, did anyone know what Mez wanted?
<rob^> mgalvin ping
<mgalvin> rob^, pong
<rob^> hey, just an idea I had for the faq guide, I was thinking of making it use Synaptic instead of all the apt-get commands
<rob^> might be a bit of work though
<mgalvin> it would be a bit of work plus the users would have to search for each package in order to select and install
<mdke> i would say that is a really important idea
<rob^> mgalvin, I could include an explination at the start of the faq explaining how to use Synaptic and apt-get
<mgalvin> although it would be a bit more gental for new users who are not comfortable on the cli
<mgalvin> true
<mgalvin> its a good idea
<rob^> cool, I'm glad you think so too
<mdke> i think its essential
<mgalvin> hmm should we include instructions for both or would that be over kill
<rob^> I'll do some work and submit a patch later
<rob^> I think just a short thing on apt-get explaining that if they want to use it, just take the package names and plug them into an apt-get install blah
<mgalvin> good point, go for it
<rob^> :)
<rob^> I will
<mgalvin> :)
<mdke> nice one
<rob^> are there any #ubuntu ops around?
<mdke> --> bed
<rob^> nah its ok
<rob^> some knob printing out ascii art in there
<kbrooks> the ops know
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> that was 10 minutes ago
<rob^> whats the literal expression for >
<mgalvin> rob^, &gt;
<mgalvin> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> hows it going
<mgalvin> good, yourself?
<jsgotangco> oh just enjoying a lazy sunday morning heh
<jsgotangco> im looking at the online classifieds
<rob^> mgalvin, thanks
<mgalvin> rob^, np
<mgalvin> g'night all
* rob^ takes out patchzooka, fires at mailing list
<rob^> KABOOM!
<Burgundavia> create a CategoryLaptop on the wiki?
<robitaille> Burgundavia: yeah...that's a good idea.  There are quite a few laptop pages there, and it's bound to increase with the emphasis over laptops nowadays
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I have been flooding some peoples inboxes
<Burgundavia> seen that robitaille ?
<robitaille> about your MOTU pages?  yeah, quite a few a changes there tonight from you
<Burgundavia> most of my 10,000 edits on wikipedia are cleanup edits
<robitaille> I get all the wiki changes in a email folder, then I quickly scan them from time to time to pick the interesting ones.  It's a good way to have a feel of what's going on, and which topics are active
<Burgundavia> thinking of creating a central page for laptops
<Burgundavia> called laptop support
<robitaille> by the way, I have to reply to your blog entry at one point (probably not tonight; it's getting late).   I like my console and my xterms :)
<Burgundavia> consoles are fine
* rob^ takes a look at the wiki
<Burgundavia> I and Aunt Tillie don't want to have to use them
<Burgundavia> I also find the CLI to be quite powerful
<robitaille> I personally find the GUI to, more often than not, get in my way of doing things on a computer. 
<Burgundavia> I like pretty desktops
<Burgundavia> that is why I hate KDE/older DE's
<Burgundavia> and windows
<Burgundavia> I don't find them pretty
<Burgundavia> those icons are great, but they waste a lot of vertical space
<Burgundavia> observe --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingSpec
<robitaille> do you read Wired magazine?  There was an Apple ad on page 2-3 showing their Dashboard...it looks gorgeous; at least compared to the usual XP we see in many ads.
<Burgundavia> yes
* rob^ plans to buy a laptop and run Ubuntu on it soon, so bookmarks that page
<Burgundavia> beagle/blam/nm-applet take up too much space on my notification are
<Burgundavia> aa
<Burgundavia> as they take up extra blank space
<robitaille> LaptopTestingSpec
<robitaille> LaptopTestingSpec, is that part of the LaptopTesting Team thinggy?
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> I wonder when it's will get going...unless it has already?
<Burgundavia> CategoryLaptop or CategoryLaptops ?
<robitaille> CategoryLaptops... but I'm french...english language questions are not my department :)
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> need to find an english speaker
<rob^> ?
<Burgundavia> see above
* rob^ looks
<Burgundavia> CategoryLaptop or CategoryLaptops ?
<rob^> laptop
<rob^> but they are commonly refered to as a notebook nowdays
<robitaille> in french,  often they are called "portable".  When I make the mistake in english, people look at me strangely :)
<rob^> :)
<Burgundavia> there are a lot of useless pages on the wiki
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I am thinking of changing all those categories
<Burgundavia> splitting it to LaptopSupport and LaptopTesting
<Burgundavia> what do you think?
* robitaille thinks he should delete UbuntuSecurity or at least update it since he created it months ago
<robitaille> Why? LaptopSupport and LaptopTesting could fit both in one Laptop category.  
<Burgundavia> but they category to 2 different sets of users
<Burgundavia> those who want to see what works, and those who wish to work on getting it working
<robitaille> and some pages will fit in both categories.  personally I think that's getting to be too fine of a separation between the two.  It's easier to keep them into one.
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I am going to get some of the misnamed stuff killed though
<Burgundavia> you probably saw the posts
<robitaille> sort of...my email is up and down tonight while I migrating to mutt-ng at home after finally managing to compile it with the options I wanted.
<Burgundavia> add wifi to categorylaptop ?
<robitaille> no sure.
<robitaille> s/no/not
<Burgundavia> already done
<robitaille> but leaning toward yes :)
<Burgundavia> most wifi users are currently laptop users
<Burgundavia> we need a wiki work day
<robitaille> tha'ts a good idea.  Don't plan it during the week I'll be on the beach :)
<Burgundavia> due to locking we just divide into groups
<Burgundavia> work on seperate areas
<robitaille> in many ways, that's the point of an official Wiki teams, with priority given on some aspect of the wiki during some period of times.
<robitaille> I have to go to bed soon... good night.
<venda> that sucks, if you have sunjava installed and then apt-get ant, it installs gcj and wipes out your install of sun java
<venda> who the $#@^&% are they do do that
<venda> I thought sun-j2re1.5 was in multiverse
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> that is going to suck in breezy
<venda> why can't I find it?
<venda> was it taken out?
<venda> gcj sucks socks man
<Burgundavia> jre was was only in the hoary-extras
<Burgundavia> and one of the backports servers is currently down
<venda> most java apps dont run on it, can't even start em
<venda> I dont have backports
<venda> no will use them
<venda> You know this respository stuff is all nice when its working
<venda> but if they go down you're %$#ed
<venda> and you are at the mercy of whatever they do in that repos :-(
<venda> what ubuntu needs is what SuSE has
<venda> you can have multiple java installed
<venda> then just do
<venda> setjava {version}
<venda> SuSEconfig
<venda> and walla swapped between java versions
<venda> SuSE still rocks better than Ubuntu in these types of places
<Burgundavia> debian and their policy on stuff being DFSG-free meant that some stuff has been excluded
<Burgundavia> and thus elegant solutions like that have not been developed
<venda> exactly, which raises the question, is that what users want?
<Burgundavia> in the end, yes
<venda> no, I don't agree that users only want DFSG-free
<venda> they want simplicity that works
<Burgundavia> yes, to a certain extent
<Burgundavia> but their insistence on DFSG-free has moved a lot of people
<venda> it's only the religious hard core that are stuck on that
<venda> I think this is one of the downsides of developing on Debian
<Burgundavia> debian was probably quite important is the freeing of QT
<venda> Distro's like Fedora and SuSE can do these things for their users
<Burgundavia> fedora is crap
<Burgundavia> there is a lot of things that need fixing that can be done within DFSG-fre
<Burgundavia> like better laptop support
<venda> that is irrelevant
<venda> they can be fixed
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> and why is Ubuntu eclipsing just about every other distro out there, and still being mostly true to the DFSG?
<venda> the perspective that Fedora is crap is a personal point-of-view
<Burgundavia> fedora is a testbed
<Burgundavia> and nothing more
<venda> again a personal point of view. Linux in general is one big testbed
<venda> we all are the testers
<Burgundavia> then so is windows
<venda> not treally
<venda> we all test linux and patch its problems
<venda> ms does not do that
<Burgundavia> yes, but the problems get fixed
<Burgundavia> ms doesn;t fix them
<venda> yes that's why I say part of linux is that it is a testbed
<venda> its why Linux becomes a better OS in long run
<Burgundavia> but if the same problem exists in windows and linux, I would bet a small fortune it would be fixed in linux sooner
<venda> yes, but we're not debating linux vs. windows
<Burgundavia> DFSG-free is quite important to users, even though they may not know it
<venda> I am just saying that distros such as SuSE and Fedora have more freedom to do things
<Burgundavia> the bug, DFSG-nonfree manifests itself in many ways
<Burgundavia> such as with skype and other non-free crap
<venda> Sure, but users want these things
<Burgundavia> no
<venda> and generally endup installing it
<Burgundavia> users want a system that is well integrated
<venda> exactly
<Burgundavia> free apps are much better integrated than non-free
<venda> but integration has nothing to do with DSFG-free
<Burgundavia> as linus says "if it is not in the tree, we don't care"
<venda> hmm, yeah but he is a bit of a tyrant
<Burgundavia> in other words, if our changes broke your non-free app, sorry, but your problem
<Burgundavia> the other way is the ms way
<Burgundavia> which involves leaving all kinds of legacy crap behind, because some app somewhere may need it
<venda> so why then do so many people install non-free stuff if they dont want it?
<Burgundavia> they want the funcationality
<venda> look at our debate with FAQGuide and backports
<venda> yes, but if that functionality is not avialable free, then I think a distro needs to be flexible
<Burgundavia> mostly the non-free stuff people install is w32codecs
<venda> exactly
<venda> and skype
<Burgundavia> and due to patent issues, no company can commit money to getting free versions working
<venda> there are a few places like this
<Burgundavia> once patent issues are truly dead in europe, then companies can start funding this
<venda> sure, but in the interim?
<venda> one one hand being hardline is good from a longterm perspective, but really not good for adoption rate now
<venda> I dunno, I think middle ground is better
<Burgundavia> kind of the chicken and the egg
<venda> help non-free to understand the model
<Burgundavia> there has been no work on a (l)gpl flash implemenation because a non-free exists
<venda> don't exclude it based on radical doctrine
<Burgundavia> in fact, the non-free was released to kill the free one
<venda> well the none free is better :-)
<Burgundavia> because nobody ships the free one
<venda> it works
<Burgundavia> and thus is gets no mindshare
<Burgundavia> and no developers
<venda> that what users want now
<venda> users dont care about the free agument now, they want it to work now
<venda> and they want it to work very well
<venda> the non free flash works very well
<venda> and sun java is better than gcj
<venda> I cant run gcj
<venda> my apps dont support it
<Burgundavia> I suspect once that we get the gcj stuff into breezy, the quality will increase dramatically
<venda> so
<Burgundavia> as more users mean more testers and possibly more develoers
<venda> if I need to instal ant, I must manually do it and that will result in my sun java breaking
<venda> manually do it or
<venda> not good
<venda> here is a user perspective
<venda> I need sunjava
<venda> but if I install ant my sunjava is replaced by gcj, and my apps dont work
<venda> that sucks
<Burgundavia> then file a bug about it
<venda> the problem is in the symlinks
<venda> when you install gcj
<venda> /usr/java/jre1.5.0_01/bin/java /usr/bin/java
<venda> /usr/java/jre1.5.0_01/bin/java_vm /usr/bin/java_vm
<venda> it overwrites the above
<venda> so if I want both I must now create scripts to do it
<Burgundavia> then file a bug, irc != bugzilla
<venda> seems to me that installaion of gcj should test java -version before installation and install scripts for switching between java versions
<venda> like to discuss it first :-)
<Burgundavia> venda, I can do nothing about it. I understand you, but file a bug about it
<Burgundavia> s/discuss/bitch
<venda> bye
<Burgundavia> cya
<venda> can anyone define for me what the "enterprise edition" of Ubuntu is?
<sivang> venda: there's an enterprise edition?
<venda> seems that is a dig at RH
<venda> there is a standard support edition and an extended support edition
<kbrooks> hi
<kbrooks> ok then
<kbrooks> i'd like to talk....
<venda> talk
<venda> what's on your mind?
<kbrooks> hmm
<kbrooks> I think the sound situation in Ubuntu is annoying to newbies to Ubuntu.
<venda> how's that?
<venda> is your sound not working?
<kbrooks> no
<kbrooks> i read #ubuntu
<kbrooks> someone there.....
<kbrooks> had problems with sound
<venda> sorry I am not tuned to #ubuntu
<venda> so you wil have to explain why
<kbrooks> lol
<kbrooks> mdke, so.....
<kbrooks> wassup
<mdke> kbrooks, not much, yourself?
<kbrooks> nm
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-23
<mdke> rwabel, UserDocumentation is starting to look great now, thanks for your work!
<mdke> how's it going Burgundavia ?
<mdke> nice wiki work dude
<Burgundavia> is this a special wiki page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalSpellingWords
<Burgundavia> mdke, I am just beginning
<mdke> oh yeah?
<mdke> what are you planning?
<mdke> Burgundavia, what do you mean by special wiki page?
<Burgundavia> going to cleanup UserDocumenation
<Burgundavia> does moin use that LocalSpellingWords for spell check?
<Burgundavia> add a Laptop page
<Burgundavia> add a PDA page
<mdke> cleanup?
<Burgundavia> make more useful
<mdke> dunno about that spelling page
<mdke> Burgundavia, what did you have in mind for UserDocumentation?
<rwabel> mkde: yeah it's great
<mdke> Burgundavia, rwabel and myself have been doing some work on it recently, perhaps we can pool ideas
<Burgundavia> basically, I need to forstall the creation of the NewUser guide stuff
<Burgundavia> so I need to prove that I can make UserDocumentation useful for all
<Burgundavia> mostly need to cleanup the New to Ubuntu section
<mdke> i would like that too
<Burgundavia> what is this?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxForReal
<Burgundavia> can I kill it?
<mdke> why kill?
<Burgundavia> it seems to be a non-useful brain dump
<mdke> there are 2500 pages on the wiki man, many will be non-useful. The important thing IMHO is to get the useful pages linked well
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> maybe someone wants that page
<Burgundavia> murdering non-useful pages is also useful
<mdke> the author
<rwabel> why not just ask the author?
<mdke> IMO we should be careful with murdering pages, the person who created them might want them, and if they are doing no harm...
<Burgundavia> should
* Burgundavia mumbles about harm...
<mdke> remove links to it if there are prominent links on important pages which mislead users
<Burgundavia> the first paragraph on UserDocumentation needs work
<mdke> yes indeed
<mdke> that is out of date
<rwabel> I'm sure the author of the page has just started, it's dated from yesterday
<Burgundavia> I am going to get rid of the icon, as it takes up too much vertical space
* mdke is working on it
<Burgundavia> just did an edit
<Burgundavia> we need a DeletionRequests page
<mdke> gah
<mdke> damn you
<mdke> crossing over edits = bad
<Burgundavia> I said I was editing it
<Burgundavia> sorry, saw that after I had saved
<mdke> the wiki should have told us that someone else was working on the page
<Burgundavia> mdke, you done?
<mdke> not quite
<Burgundavia> ouch https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackupYourSystem needs some love
<Burgundavia> too wordy
<mdke> you removed the warning not to make structural changes without talking to ubuntu-doc?
<Burgundavia> no, moved it to the bottom
<mdke> Burgundavia, its a howto from the forum, i only just copied it over
<Burgundavia> "To do this, become root with
<Burgundavia> sudo su
<Burgundavia> "
<Burgundavia> umm, no
<mdke> Burgundavia, ah hmm. Maybe it would be better to have it at the top but commented?
<Burgundavia> yes, like that idea
<mdke> Burgundavia, sudo su works afaik, i have followed that howto to the letter
<Burgundavia> it works, but is not hte ubuntu way
<Burgundavia> do we have a standard "Needs work message?"
<mdke> well... i asked the author of the howto to maintain the wiki page too, maybe he will say yes. You can make recommendations for the howto on the forum thread i guess. or just change the wiki page
<mdke> Burgundavia, there is a needs work section in WikiToDo iirc
<Burgundavia> just added a comment to the top about using at your own risk
<mdke> i've finished editing the first para on UserDocumentation
<mdke> lemme know what you think
<Burgundavia> looks good
<mdke> that page is rocking now compared to a week ago
<Burgundavia> check the page now
<Burgundavia> I seperated installation methods
<mdke> great idea
<Burgundavia> I rather like AudioCDBurning
<mdke> only thing missing from installation 1 is some install guides
<mdke> i'll add em
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> ah shit
<mdke> the existing ones are for warty
<Burgundavia> then fix them
<Burgundavia> anyway, all our installation stuff is about to be obselete
<Burgundavia> what about removing the non-technical/faq stuff from the NewUbuntu User stuff?
<Burgundavia> thoughts?
<Burgundavia> and Kubuntu does not need to be in the New Users stuff
<mdke> i will tend to avoid that NewUsers stuff
<mdke> i still think that the UserDocumentation page can/should be user-friendly enough
<Burgundavia> ok, I am going to go to town on the new users section
<mdke> they will roll back maybe
<mdke> best thing is to keep communication strong so that they know what you are doing and why
<Burgundavia> no, the section in the UserDocumentation page
<Burgundavia> is there a getting Ubuntu page?
<mdke> oh sorry i see
<mdke> where will you put the kubuntu link?
<mdke> that is important IMHO
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> thoughts?
<mdke> i think it should be there myself
<mdke> but you are right about the faq probably
<mdke> maybe move that to other resources
<Burgundavia> let me edit and you can critique
<mdke> also probably the basic CLI commands can go
<mdke> somewhere lower
<Burgundavia> should getting ubuntu list development versions?
<Burgundavia> GettingUbuntu
<mdke> i like it, its at the bottom so does no harm IMO
<mdke> what do you think?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> thinking of moving into its own page
<Burgundavia> to cleanup getting Ubuntu
<mdke> i think lots of people look for the Development version
<mdke> i think having it under a subsection on that page is quite nice myself
<mdke> kinda makes sense to have it in GettingUbuntu to me
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> i tell you what I don't like
<mdke> links to the spanish version
<mdke> also I'm gonna change the section titles so that Development is more clearly separated from the rest
<Burgundavia> editing it
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<mdke> cool
<Burgundavia> done
<Burgundavia> how to I link to specific section of a wiki page?
<mdke> erm
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnMacros#here
<mdke> what is your view on having spanish links in pages?
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> no need to make it harder to find the international links
<mdke> but none of the other languages link
<Burgundavia> then link them
<mdke> and the spanish pages should have their own table of contents really
<mdke> i'll leave it for now
<mdke> burgs
<mdke> know anything about iptables?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IptablesHowTo
<Burgundavia> how do I make a link this  [[Page linked to|actual link in page] ] 
<Burgundavia> no much
<Burgundavia> umm, firestarter?
<mdke> i've heard firestarter is a bit shit
<mdke> btw
<Burgundavia> firestarter needs some interface love
<Burgundavia> but isn't bad
<mdke> [:PageNameInCamelCase:your lovely readable link] 
* mdke waits for Burgundavia to go through the entire wiki to change all links like that
<mdke> we should be copying more gentoo docs ;)
<mdke> http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Iptables_for_newbies
<mdke> i gotta sleep
<mdke> night
<Burgundavia> cya
<mdke> parting thought
<Burgundavia> oh?
<mdke> i wonder if it would be helpful to have a list of wikiteam people
<mdke> for coordination purposes so people can communicate and feedback on what they're doing
<Burgundavia> might be
<mdke> this session has been useful IMO
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> ok --> bed
<mdke> hassle elmo abo
<mdke> ut commit accounts
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> yes
<rwabel> me too
<rwabel> cu
<mdke> Burgundavia, do you mind if i remove the "non-technical" reading section? I think it complicates a bit. I was thinking, remove StartingTheJourney altogether and put UbuntuPhilosophy in the first section under About Ubuntu?
<Burgundavia> sure
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> looking good
<mdke> we can make some nicer links another day
<Burgundavia> #
<Burgundavia> NewUbuntuUsers - answers to common questions for new users
<Burgundavia> #
<Burgundavia> [WWW]  Glossary - learn the meaning of some words related to computers, linux, and Ubuntu.
<Burgundavia> #
<Burgundavia> FrequentlyAskedQuestions - Answers for questions not yet in the [WWW]  FAQ database
<Burgundavia> what do you think about these 3 links?
<Burgundavia> I want them to go away
<mdke> 2. glossary i like
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> glossary is a little technical
<mdke> 3. i don't like. not sure whether it should go away but we can think about it
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> maybe move to other resources for the glossary then?
<Burgundavia> NewUbuntuUsers duplicates the section it is in
<mdke> remove 1
<Burgundavia> done
<Burgundavia> mdke, were you not going to bed?
<mdke> i'm making a list of people on WikiTeam, robitaille, rwabel, Burgundavia I'm adding you
<mdke> Burgundavia, might have been
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> is 3am there, no?
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> you must not live with anyone
<mdke> correct
<mdke> well i have a flatmate
<mdke> but he has his own room :)
<mdke> my g/f is coming to visit on saturday so I might as well get going on Ubuntu until she does :)
<Burgundavia> ah
<mdke> i don't like the table of contents any more
<mdke> i wonder if we can get it to use bullet points in the subsections
<Burgundavia> would be nice
<mdke> doesn't look like it...
<mdke> we can limit the max depth...
<mdke> but that wouldn't work
* mdke plays with macros
<mdke> ARGH!
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGuide
<mdke> why?
<mdke> hey dude
<mdke> i noticed you're porting ubuntuguide to the wiki
<HrdwrBoB> ahh this would be th right channel
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
<mdke> how come?
<HrdwrBoB> people keep reading the damn thing and if they're going to read it
<HrdwrBoB> they could at least read one that's up to date and correct
<HrdwrBoB> or at least correctable
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i have a couple of ideas on that
<HrdwrBoB> is there a better way I should be approaching it?
<mdke> first of all, do you know that the doc team is working on a version of the guide?
<mdke> it will be released with breezy and as static html on the website
<HrdwrBoB> I search around the wiki but couldn't find anything easily available that was similar
<mdke> this document we are working on is not on the wiki but in our svn repository
<mdke> if you want to get involved with it, we would be happy
<mdke> there are two guys working on it, i'm sure they would love a hand
<mdke> if not, np
<HrdwrBoB> yeah that would be cool
<HrdwrBoB> a lot of the issues i find is just dealing with the things ubuntu can't distribute
<mdke> yeah we have some difficulty with that too
<mdke> especially since it will ship with the distro
<HrdwrBoB> as an end user, I don't care about patents, I just want to play mp3s DVDs, other movies, java and flash
<HrdwrBoB> is it a legal problem for ubuntu to tell people how to do it
<mdke> some things are
<mdke> we will probably be handling the problem thus:
<mdke> wait to see what hoary-extras does when backports becomes "official"
<mdke> then act accordingly
<Burgundavia> patents are mostly ok
<Burgundavia> it is w32codecs that are the real problem
* Burgundavia shoots himself now
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, the other thing you might be interested in is that we are trying to improve the documentation area on the wiki to make available much of the material that is in the guide but not the wiki. Maybe you would be interested in helping out? The Homepage for documentation is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, if you identify things that are in the guide but not in the wiki, perhaps you could create the pages and link in that page? that way we will have a rocking documentation area in the wiki
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
<HrdwrBoB> is there a nicer way to refresh the gnome menu than killing gnome-panel
<mdke> i reckon a really long page like UbuntuGuide is not so accessible as that method
<HrdwrBoB> that seems like an awfully vicious way of doing it
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, no, but it should update automatically. Only the icons don't update.
<HrdwrBoB> what I find people like with ubuntuguide is it's a lot of 'quick fixes'
<HrdwrBoB> yeah I thought so
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, we are not against quick fixes :)
<HrdwrBoB> :)
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, the main reason I called you in here was to make you aware of what we are doing and to ensure there is no duplication of effort :)
<HrdwrBoB> yeah that's cool
<mdke> great
<mdke> ok real bed time now
<mdke> (04.22)
<HrdwrBoB> heh, night
<HrdwrBoB> lunchtime for me
<mdke> :)
<mdke> aussie?
<Burgundavia> what are we going to do with UbuntuGuide right now?
<mdke> Burgundavia, that's up to HrdwrBoB 
<Burgundavia> as it is copyright violation, as well
<mdke> hehe
<mdke> Burgundavia, that is debateable.
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> as the 5.04 is a deriv on the 4.10 one
<Burgundavia> and the 4.10 was tri-licensed
<mdke> there is a clear intention to give a licence on his page, even if it isn't properly done
<Burgundavia> but our wiki is not gpl
<Burgundavia> thus it is license violation
<Burgundavia> as gpl and gfdl cannot be mixed
<mdke> that is a very stiff way of looking at it
<Burgundavia> the law is very stiff
<Burgundavia> it sucks but is true
<mdke> hey
<mdke> you canadians have the most flexible law of all of us
<Burgundavia> not really
<HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: stuff on the wiki inherently becomes GFDL?
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, dual licensed, actually
<Burgundavia> gfdl and cc-by-sa2.0
* robitaille remembers an slashdot article of a few days ago about a planned Canadian law banning search engines...
<Burgundavia> well, the new canadian copyright law is mixed bag
<Burgundavia> some good, some bad
<Burgundavia> that is OT though
<HrdwrBoB> so you can't have a section with a disclaimer that's GPL
<Burgundavia> actually, you can't have the entire guide
<Burgundavia> removing the gpl stuff doesn't unlicense it
<HrdwrBoB> the GPL stuff isn't removed
<HrdwrBoB> I moved it to the bottom
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the ubuntuguide.org author released the 4.10 version to the doc team under our licenses
<Burgundavia> you can use that
<HrdwrBoB> ok
<Burgundavia> but honestly, one monolithic page is not useful
<HrdwrBoB> possibly, but it seems to be preferred by end users
<Burgundavia> no, end users want quick information
<Burgundavia> there are many way so geting that to them
<Burgundavia> a monolithic page is one way
<Burgundavia> a well linked wiki is our way
<HrdwrBoB> true
<Burgundavia> so, for your page, what are we going to do with it?
<HrdwrBoB> I just updated it with a "under development due to copyright issues" message
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> please don't like it from anywhere
<Burgundavia> this a useful link to keep?
<Burgundavia> http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/
<jsgotangco> hello
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  hi (30 minutes later...)
<Burgundavia> salut all
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, jeezz you're busy today
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EverydayUsage
<Burgundavia> kill it?
<jsgotangco> it seems pretty rendundant
<Burgundavia> what is this?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StopGnomeFromRestarting
<Burgundavia> can I kill it?
<jsgotangco> sure mdke wanted to kill that page before
<Burgundavia> done
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuSecurity  should we bother keeping it?  I created that page as a proof of concept during a mailing list conversation, but obviously it hasn't be updated in 3 months.
<Burgundavia> kill it
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IsoImage
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DowngradingFromHoaryHowTo , kill that?
<rob^> is there a copy of ubuntuguide on the wiki?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> downgrading is ridiculous
<Burgundavia> UbuntuGuide
<rob^> you could always replace it with the one in subversion when we're done
<Burgundavia> there already is one
<Burgundavia> FAQGuide
<rob^> yes, thats the one I'm talking about
<rob^> or even just remove the wiki one, I think ours will be on help.u.c when its done
<robitaille> downgrading to Warty was on topic during Hoary's developmental cycle and users were upgrading for no real reason for no real reason.  Now, it's kind of useless.
<Burgundavia> it is already dead
* Burgundavia is having fun deleting stuff
<rob^> hehe
<rob^> good work though
<rob^> the wiki needed it
<robitaille> UbuntuSecurity is now gone.
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NanoHowto
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IsoImage  I would kill it; not really useful content
<Burgundavia> dead
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NanoHowto  keep it?  there is some limited content in there for people interested in that application.
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FinishInstallationHowto
<Burgundavia> is this out of date? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NautilusScriptsHowto
<robitaille> from memory, NautilusScriptsHowto is where people were dumping example of Nautilus script.  A bit stale, but I don't think it is out of date per say; probably still useful as examples to use if you are trying to write your own scripts.
<robitaille> I keep seeing my name on all these old pages because they all have icons that got repaired recently :)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> most of them are very old
<robitaille> FinishInstallationHowto   I would delete
<robitaille> very limited content....need to much love to be even remotely useful
<Burgundavia> dead
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhyIMAP   should that be CatDocumentation?
<Burgundavia> I would just kill it
<robitaille> I'm 50/50 on WhyIMAP.  Too many new users have no ideas about IMap vs POP
<Burgundavia> yes, but it doesn't really serve any audience
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingMplayerFromHoaryInWarty
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenVPNClientMiniHowto
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToEnableMiddleClickURLLoadingInFirefox   I'm a bit confuse by that page.  Is that middle-button loading creating a new tab?  Or something else?
<Burgundavia> that is garbage
<robitaille> InstallingMplayerFromHoaryInWarty
<Burgundavia> kill it?
<robitaille> is probably not worth keeping.
<Burgundavia> dead
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantumLogicCorpoation
<Burgundavia> spam?
<robitaille> spam with a typo :)
<Burgundavia> dead
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RemoteConnectionUbuntuLiveCD
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenVPNClientMiniHowto   talk about v2, which is only available in Breezy.  So worth keeping around for a bit longer?
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> tagged as documentation
<Burgundavia> I am going to kill the middleclick page
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FOSSFP
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FasterBootProcess
<Burgundavia> development only
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility this is a glossary only term?
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RemoteConnectionUbuntuLiveCD   risky business...but could be of use for someone.
<Burgundavia> I will tag it and then note that it is risky
<robitaille> Accessibility:  looks like a glossary term for a page;  Not sure from where.  AccessibilityTeam needs a bit of my love on some links
<Burgundavia> I will kill it
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThunderbirdDefaultMailerHowto <-- one liner, better served in a more general place
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder     Should we have a general Confence Cateogry for the various past and future COFs pages?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> is this true anymore? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelDoesNotSupportCapabilities
<HrdwrBoB> if it is, it could be cleaned up a bit
<Burgundavia> why? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingFirefox
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, go to it
<HrdwrBoB> $() is better than `
<HrdwrBoB> and it's better to add the module to /etc/modules
<HrdwrBoB> then all you have to do is mkinitrd
<Burgundavia> fix the page pleaes
<HrdwrBoB> and all future initrds will be created correctly
<Burgundavia> and add CategoryDocumentation to it
<HrdwrBoB> doing so
<Burgundavia> cheers, thanks
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingFirefox  wasn't that on the WikiTODO list (install thunderbird and firefox from mozilla.org)?
<Burgundavia> do we really need a howto on installing from source?
<Burgundavia> a user is more likely to seriously mess up their system with that
<robitaille> people keep asking for it....
<Burgundavia> is there a page that is better for this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WirelessFirmware
<Burgundavia> ok, I will add huge "do not do" things on it
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo has Firefox+Thunderbird page to do.  Not sure who added that request
<robitaille> how to add a new category? for that COF one?  
<Burgundavia> added huge caveat and category
<Burgundavia> add it a page
<Burgundavia> This page lists all pages in the documentation category on the wiki:
<Burgundavia> [[FullSearch()] ] 
<Burgundavia> then add that to a page
<Burgundavia> wow, take peek --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WartyWarthogTasks
<robitaille> oh, that's simple.  So "CategoryUbuntuConferences"?
<robitaille> delete?   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnderCarPool
<robitaille> a bit late for car pool :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PerkyPenguin
<Burgundavia> I feel perky today
<Burgundavia> more oldness --> 
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WartyWarthogReleaseSchedule
<robitaille> carpool is gone.  CategoryUbuntuConferences has been created.
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StagesOfUse
<robitaille> what was the perkypenguin page?    it is already gone :)
<Burgundavia> oh sorry
<Burgundavia> some non-ubuntu release planning
<Burgundavia> what I want are nice templates
<Burgundavia> in wikipedia I can add a stub message to a page, and it automatically gets added to a category
<Burgundavia> thus I could tag a page with "NotUpdatedforHoary" and it would be added to the CategoryUpdateForHoary
<Burgundavia> useful as a historical articfact?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnifiedHardwareDetectionBOF
<robitaille> StagesofUse was on the agenda of that DocTeam meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeeting20041104
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<robitaille> UnifiedHardwareDetectionBOF
<robitaille> was that in Sydney?
<Burgundavia> no, Mataro
<Burgundavia> all of UDU is on the UDU wiki
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, hello
<robitaille> Burgundavia: we finally did it:  tried to edit the same page at the same time:  "Conference".
<robitaille> but your version won
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> that is not bad
<Burgundavia> I am working from the bottom of the recent changes, 90 page
<jsgotangco> good thing you guys werent fixing X or else we now know why its not working heh
<jsgotangco> (joke)
<Burgundavia> there are a lot of pages on the wiki that i had no idea existed
<Burgundavia> think I can kill this?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Dashboard
<Burgundavia> dashboard is basically dead
<Burgundavia> beagle is coming along nicely though
<jiyuu0> jsgotangco, yes :)
<Burgundavia> does evolution spam filter by default?
<robitaille> don't think so.  I think you have to install spamassassin to be able to enable it.  (never done it)
<jsgotangco> ewww
<Burgundavia> ok, saved that page
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gtk1Fonts
<robitaille> Gtk1Fonts is probably of use for some "older" applications...like xmms in the example
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FOSSFP <-- why is this on our wiki?
<robitaille> FOSSFP is promoting the wide-spread use of UBUNTU in Pakistan. FOSSFP is the main contact for UBUNTU in Pakistan.
<Burgundavia> ok
<robitaille> from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FouadRiazBajwa
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> pretty structured heh
<jiyuu0> promoting ubuntu?
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=48335&highlight=workshop
<jiyuu0> just did this 2 days ago :-)
<Burgundavia> out of date?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EventsInBelgium
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, ooohh pretty neat
<Burgundavia> very nice
<Burgundavia> all those shiny new machines
<jsgotangco> nice lab
<jiyuu0> first lab was ok
<jiyuu0> but warty live can't display res properly
<jiyuu0> 640
<jiyuu0> 2nd lab, those shinny machines... can't install warty
<jiyuu0> live also can't work
<jiyuu0> but works fine for hoary
<jiyuu0> but the unfortunate thing is, my CDs are all warty
<jsgotangco> must be machines with shared video 
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> you should have asked mako for cds
<jiyuu0> haven come yet
<Burgundavia> if you are doing an event, he can bump your order
* robitaille is also still waiting for Hoary's CDs....
* Burgundavia already has some
<jsgotangco> i got loads from UDU
<jsgotangco> but i dont have them anymore
<jiyuu0> they were pretty much ok with ubuntu
<jsgotangco> grrr if i had access to such labs i would do the same
<robitaille> I want to do an internal seminar at work about Ubuntu in Sept-Oct;  I'll have to bug Mako before then.
<jiyuu0> but at the end of class, i ask em to burn the mepis and ubuntu
<jiyuu0> most of em choose mepis
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> they like KDE then
<jiyuu0> i think new to linux ppl like kde more
<jsgotangco> its understandable
<jsgotangco> its also the colors
<jiyuu0> and they said, everything in one easier
<jsgotangco> my wife prefers using RHEL than Ubuntu probabaly because of bluecurve
<Burgundavia> ironically, RH is dropping bluecurve
<robitaille> EventsInBelgium:  maybe add a note about the out of date event? But we should keep it.  They ar most up to date than Canadian events :)
* robitaille always liked bluecurve
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, really? what for? Clearlooks?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> well that's a step forward i guess
<Burgundavia> there is a lot of crap docs on our wiki
<robitaille> but less now than a few hours ago :)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> umm --> 
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StaticMediaAccompanyingDebs
<robitaille> obviously someone trying to sell an idea who got initially turned down on ubuntu=devel
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> kill the page?
<Burgundavia> do we know have japanese input by deafult?
<robitaille> I think so.  That's conference'spec material
<robitaille> if it was accepted....
<robitaille> InputMethods refers to that Japanese input page....
<Burgundavia> should we have a category people?
<Burgundavia> from the old doc team --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelHowto
<robitaille> category people?  like this: CategoryHomepage
<Burgundavia> ah, nev mind
<robitaille> notice in that KernelHowTo the link to the unknown CategoryTechnical
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> I'm going to bed...I have to work tomorrow morning...
<jsgotangco> ooh there's a CC meeeting tommorow
<Burgundavia> right, when?
<Burgundavia> ouch 1400 UTC
<Burgundavia> is 7 am
* Burgundavia doesn't see himself making that, for some reason
<jsgotangco> hmmm i make it on meetings with 6am on my side :P
<Burgundavia> right
<jsgotangco> w007!
<Burgundavia> hmm?
<jsgotangco> it arrived! it arrived at last!
<jsgotangco> a parcel just arrived my copy of Zeta
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> zeta?
<jsgotangco> www.yellowtab.com
<Burgundavia> ah, that
<Burgundavia> morning Kinnison
<Kinnison> morning burgey
<rwabel> Burgundavia: do you know that the HowToStart page is in czech
<Burgundavia> where?
<jsgotangco> well its under LoCoTeams category
<rwabel> but it's on the main page of the wiki
<rwabel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToStart
<rwabel> it's linked under Community
<Burgundavia> you want to fix that?
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<rwabel> who?
<Burgundavia> remoe the link or fix the page
<rwabel> I can remove it, but I can't fix the page...don't speak czech
<Burgundavia> ok
<rwabel> we should ask the author to translate
<rwabel> damn...no email
<Burgundavia> then just remove the link
<Burgundavia> and rename the page to CzechLocoTeam
<rwabel> yes
<mdke> morning
<mdke> but check for backlinks before you rename
<Burgundavia> yes
<rwabel> done
<mdke> it is still linked
<jsgotangco> hi mdke
<rwabel> no
<rwabel> I've removed...strange
<rwabel> will check again
<mdke> its linked in a page called TheUbuntuCommunity
<rwabel> sorry, I shouldn't use opera..I get sometimes problem while editing with opera
<mdke> ouch
<mdke> ebil
<jjesse> don't know if this is a known issue, but i reloaded kubuntu (hoary) this weekend and my homepage is the default one
<jjesse> get an error message "The file /usr/share/ubunut-artwork/home/index.html cannot be found.  Please check the location and try again.
<mdke> jjesse, looks like a typo
<jjesse> wait i typed it
<jjesse> hold on
<jjesse> ubuntu is spelled correctly
<mdke> ok
<jjesse> it is looking for /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
<mdke> well they have probably removed it from the artwork package
<mdke> it should never have been there anyway
<jjesse> things now located at /usr/share/ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> it should point at the aboutubuntu doc from ubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs
<mdke> but we haven't got an ubuntu-docs yet ;)
<jjesse> even though there is a folder there
<mdke> mgalvin, rob^, commit accounts?
<mgalvin> mdke, not yet ;(
<mdke> gah
<mdke> i've sent elmo PM's and stressed him in -devel
<mdke> i wouldn't mind if he explained why he can't do it, but he just doesn't answer
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> after undertaking to put all requests through in 48 hours, 3 weeks or more is a bit much...
<Treenaks> Hello all
<mdke> welcome
<mdke> what's on your mind?
<mgalvin> has he gotten back from debconf yet
<mdke> mgalvin, just about.
<Treenaks> I'm planning to have a mini-meeting with the Ubuntu-NL LoCoTeam somewhere just after breezy-release (early November), to translate as much docs as possible to Dutch
<mdke> cool
<Treenaks> is there a "translation policy"
<mdke> Treenaks, we will be using Rosetta to translate
<Treenaks> mdke: for the wiki too?
<mdke> no wiki is not official docs, just for official docs we will use rosetta
<Treenaks> mdke: ah ok
<Treenaks> mdke: most upstream docs are OK (especially Gnome, etc.)
<mdke> Treenaks, about a month before breezy we have a string freeze, at that stage we will through the stuff into rosetta
<mdke> and then make a mad appeal for translations
<Treenaks> mdke: it's more like the questions we get tired off answering on the mailinglists & irc :)
<mdke> Treenaks, well hopefully our docs will be useful for that
<mdke> Treenaks, we are writing a number of guides
<Treenaks> mdke: guides.. like "I want to play an mp3"-guide etc.?
<mdke> check out the work in progress at http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/ (ubuntu) and http://www.lnix.net/~froud/ (kubuntu)
<mdke> Treenaks, there is a frequently asked questions guide, which will certainly cover that question ;)
<Treenaks> mdke: and this will all be rosetta stuff?
<mdke> yep
<Treenaks> mdke: we can't get cheap enough space to stay for a weekend before the release though :(
<Treenaks> mdke: and we really want to make it a LoCo activity :)
<mdke> Treenaks, translation in rosetta is available to all. I agree the locoteam should coordinate it
<mdke> but we have to try and get as much done before breezy as possible
<Treenaks> mdke: of course
<mdke> we will be appealing to locoteams and generally to the translation mailing list/community
<mdke> Treenaks, i supose the locoteam coordinates the dutch translation group in rosetta?
<Treenaks> mdke: not quite
<Treenaks> mdke: for some reasons people don't come to the Dutch LoCoTeam
<Treenaks> or at least
<Treenaks> different people do
<mdke> Treenaks, we all have that problem
<mdke> but you can get through it :)
<Treenaks> mdke: yes.. and we might just make it a hackfest, if everything is translated beforehand :)
<Treenaks> mdke: teaching packaging stuf
<Treenaks> f
<mdke> well we'll see
<mdke> all you dutch speak perfect english anyhow...
<Treenaks> mdke: yes.. but my grandmother does not
<Treenaks> mdke: and en_NL is not really a supported locale :)
<mdke> tsk tsk
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> well i am a big fan of translation
<mdke> i will make sure to come to you guys when we are looking for translators
<Treenaks> mdke: ok, we hang out on #ubuntu-nl
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i will go to #ubuntu-locoteams :)
<Treenaks> mdke: is there one?
<mdke> maybe visit some individual channels if I can
<mdke> Treenaks, yes, Seveas is often there
<Treenaks> ah cool
<Treenaks> mdke: yeah, he's the new "official" leader, I'm the old one :)
<mdke> revolution eh
<mdke> ;)
<Treenaks> mdke: not really.. just jack of motivation.. and I do more now than I did first :)
<mdke> that's cool
<Treenaks> anyway -> otherchannel
<mdke> mgalvin, actually now I look at the faq guide I don't quite understand the structure
<mdke> you around?
<mgalvin> mdke, yea
<mgalvin> looking at it now
<mdke> mgalvin, ok chapter 3 is obviously pretty big
<mgalvin> i haven't looked since rob^ updated it
<mdke> and groups a number of things
<mdke> but then some of the other later chapters are very specific, e.g. apache, streaming media server
<mgalvin> does the faqguide build for you?
<mdke> also tips and tricks is very large
<mdke> mgalvin, yeah i'm looking at it here: http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/faqi386/C/
<mgalvin> well chapter 3 just goes over installing common things, and there are a lot of them
<mgalvin> failed for me, will look at it there
<mdke> the thing that strikes me is that users may well find it hard to find what they are looking for. First of all because they don't know whether to look in tips and tricks, add-on applications etc, and secondly because a new user will not know what things like ssh and samba are
<mgalvin> right ok
<mdke> for example if I want to enable mp3 support, where do I go?
<mdke> i look down, i see networking, security, but no multimedia/music
<mgalvin> maybe we should break the add-on apps into sections based on type of app
<mgalvin> multimedia, office, development, etc...
<mdke> i would say the whole thing could be type-based
<mdke> because having a single chapter for add on applications, and a single chapter just for DHCP (which a new user will struggle to figure out what is about) seems odd
<mgalvin> agreed
<mdke> i would say things like ssh, samba, apache, dhcp should be under networking
<mdke> and maybe have more user friendly titles
<mgalvin> right they should be, right now its still reflects ubuntuguide.org
<mgalvin> we should organize it better
<mdke> yeah i was just thinking that is the reason
<mdke> with ubuntuguide because it was one single page, structure didn't matter that much because users would just search
<mdke> for us, we need to get the categories right
<mgalvin> yup
<mdke> and the titles. 3.13. 	
<mgalvin> additionally, ubuntuguide is meant to be a beginners getting started guide but...
<mdke> "How to install Multimedia Codecs?" is not user friendly
<mdke> my flatmate has had a computer for years and I taught him what a codec is just today
<mgalvin> it seems to have gotten into really tech stuff like dhcp and streaming servers which most users don't need
<mdke> mgalvin, i think it is cool to have them, but they need to be in categories so that users know where to find them, and what they do
<mdke> Burgundavia, btw check UserDocumentation, I was chatting in #moin today and one of the guys was playing around with the TOC. I'm not sure whether I like it or not.
<Burgundavia> on the side roc?
<Burgundavia> toc
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I am also undecided
<Burgundavia> shall we solicit opinion elsewhere?
<mgalvin> so we should start moving the content into more properly named categories add provide more friendly titles, i am all for it, it will definitely help make the doc understandable/useable
<Burgundavia> more cruft
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoaryDVDRippingandEncoding
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxForReal
<mgalvin> er more understandable
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOnIBMLaptop
<Burgundavia> I had a thought regarding cleanup
<Burgundavia> rather than have a page for it
<Burgundavia> have a category
<Burgundavia> is more scalable
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> the doc team does the wiki
<|rockinnerd|> ah.
<Burgundavia> and that windows page needs some major love
<Burgundavia> thanks for doing it
<mdke> Burgundavia, url?
<|rockinnerd|> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WindowsDualBootHowTo
<|rockinnerd|> np
<mdke> thanks
<|rockinnerd|> np
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-24
<Burgundavia> mdke, we just probably add a section to UserDocumentation called "working with other OSes
<|rockinnerd|> yes
<Burgundavia> as there are some other howtos for dealing with macos
<mdke> might be worth thinking about merging this page into that guide? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows
<Burgundavia> and the RecoveringUbuntu one
<|rockinnerd|> I dual-boot windows and Ubuntu, so i can test stuff in windows
<Burgundavia> mdke, that topic is worth its own wiki page
<Burgundavia> might be good to have a promient link off of dualboot,though
<mdke> Burgundavia, guess so, but the two pages could be integrated somehow
* mdke nods
<|rockinnerd|> whoops i repeated myself on the QTparted thing
<ChristopherCmoli> ^^wikiname
<ChristopherCmoli> oops its christophercmolik
<|rockinnerd|> --- My feedback on today's WinXP Home + Ubuntu (warty) live together (on an Amilo L1300 if that matters): This section and below looks ugly
<Burgundavia> remove all the comments and integrate them into the text
* Burgundavia is glad not to have to dual boot anymore. He has been windows free for 6 months and loves it
<mdke> me too
<|rockinnerd|> wish i could be
<mdke> i think i will need it again soon for work
* |rockinnerd| slaps my lexmark printer/scanner/copier
<mdke> sell it!
<Burgundavia> I am getting rid of mine
* |rockinnerd| considers
<Burgundavia> all in one means crap for all
<|rockinnerd|> any AIOs that work well with linux?
<mdke> ciao enrico :)
<|rockinnerd|> i'm on a, er, tight budget
<enrico> hi
<|rockinnerd|> We should delete this page, and split it up into Windows 2k, Windows XP, and Windows 9x/ME, because all of this info is jumbled together, and slightly confusing
<|rockinnerd|> b/c all of the 3 methods vary depending on one of the 3 oses
<|rockinnerd|> s/oses/os groups
<Burgundavia> the HP everything-is-crap work with linux
<Burgundavia> HP is actually funding development for htem
<Burgundavia> |rockinnerd|, can that be done within a single page, with sections?
<|rockinnerd|> that works too.  Is there anyway to tell who the main developer of this page is?
<Burgundavia> you are now
<Burgundavia> wiki pages "belong" to nobody
* |rockinnerd| embraces the wiki culture
<|rockinnerd|>  I intend to finish this once I receive my official Ubuntu CD's, which I will use to do a fresh install.  <== who is this "i"? i wonder...
<Burgundavia> no idea
<|rockinnerd|> yep.
<|rockinnerd|> Disclaimer @ top of page: I intend to split up the page into 3 main groups: Win2k, because it seems different than XP, WinXP, and Win9x/ME Also, the errors will be put into another section of this page. So: Pardon our dust, but remodel we must.
<mdke> go ahead and wreak havoc
<mdke> that "i intend to finish this" has been there for months iirc
<mdke> btw I reckon you might find a couple of guides which are helpful for content on the forum
* |rockinnerd| saves the raw
<|rockinnerd|> thx mdke
<mdke> np
<mdke> also
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/installation/Partitioning
<|rockinnerd|> as ive said, i dual-boot XP and Ubuntu, so i kinda know how to partition.  I will still look @ that link though mdke
<mdke> |rockinnerd|, just saves effort to use existing guides, I'm not suggesting you don't know how to do it. Much of our work here at docteam is using material that is already available
<|rockinnerd|> ah.
<|rockinnerd|> didn't think you were suggesting though. thanks for the heads-up.
<|rockinnerd|> well, ive g2g for now.
<|rockinnerd|> thanks for all the info
<elle_flane> hay!!!i really want know how it could be possible to install ubuntu in a external usb hard disk, my computer hasn t internal hard disk, and i ussually works with usb  kanoppix  and start with a cd, but i would like to have ubuntu, i didnt find any driver for do it, some people know anything
<mdke> elle_flane, no idea i'm afraid. You could ask in #ubuntu?
<elle_flane> thanks i will try
<Burgundavia> should I go to town on the IdeaPool?
<Burgundavia> mdke, others?
<mdke> Burgundavia, go right ahead but be aware that I think -devel uses that page quite a lot
<Burgundavia> I am removing the things that are already implemented
<Burgundavia> such as services-admin
<Burgundavia> yast2 port?
<Burgundavia> I want section editing
<Burgundavia> dammit
<|rockinnerd|> hey all
<Burgundavia> hello again
<|rockinnerd|> :)
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Cedega
<Burgundavia> rwabel, where does one get the .deb file?
<HrdwrBoB> from the transgaming website
<HrdwrBoB> transgaming.ocm
<HrdwrBoB> com
<Burgundavia> better make that explicit
<Burgundavia> and make it clear that Cedega is non-free
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
<HrdwrBoB> done
<Burgundavia> thanks
<Burgundavia> have you ever done the cedega cvs install?
<Burgundavia> a howto for that might be nice
<HrdwrBoB> yeah I have
<HrdwrBoB> not for some time though
<Burgundavia> can you rough something out at CedegaCVS ?
<HrdwrBoB> I'll see what I can rustle up
<Burgundavia> cheers
<HrdwrBoB> hm
<HrdwrBoB> might just be better off linking to http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=45
<rwabel> Burgundavia: either through buying or trhough emule
<rwabel> burgundavia: or torrent
<Burgundavia> we cannot promote illegal methods
<Burgundavia> but HrdwrBoB already fixed it up
<rwabel> exactely, that's why I didn't put it
<Burgundavia> but there was no mention of how to get it at all
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, sure, link to that
<rwabel> will add that
<rwabel> ah already done, thanks
<rwabel> about cvs
<HrdwrBoB> yeah I just added it
<rwabel> I've seen some french howto, I could translate if it's needed.
<rwabel> but I've never tried that one out
<Burgundavia> excellent
<HrdwrBoB> I followed the l-g.net instructions a while back - they seemed to work
<HrdwrBoB> I've since bought it though
<rwabel> shall I do the howto for cvs?
<HrdwrBoB> if you like
<rwabel> but there would be no guarantee if it's working...someone should maybe try it then
<HrdwrBoB> I think it's a tad redundant in addition to the linux-gamers.net howto
<rwabel> HrdwrBob: have you ever tried to play fifa2005 with cedega? All my games are terrible slow via cedega
<Burgundavia> maybe port that howto to ours
<HrdwrBoB> basically it would be a reformat and squish into a wiki
<HrdwrBoB> since it's under GFDL
<Burgundavia> our wiki is actually dual licensed, but anyway
<Burgundavia> not a major deal
<HrdwrBoB> rwabel: I've only played warcraft, wow, doom3, GTA:SA and far cry
<Burgundavia> ubotu in #ubuntu now points to our wiki page
<rwabel> doom3 via cedega? there is a native one, isn't it? how about speed?
<HrdwrBoB> that was before native
<rwabel> ok
<rwabel> we could just put a link to the linux-gamers.net howto in the cedega howto. what do u think?
<Burgundavia> already done
<HrdwrBoB> yeah that's what I did
<rwabel> good, thanks
<rwabel> btw: are there any limitations?
<rwabel> I mean in comparision to the subscription one?
<HrdwrBoB> of CVS?
<Burgundavia> gtg now, have fun and don't break the wiki
<HrdwrBoB> yeah it doesn't have the functions which make copy protection work
<HrdwrBoB> and is at least theoretically behind the released version
<rwabel> you mean witht he onrmal cedega you don't need the no-cd "cracks"?
<rwabel> mhh normally cvs is ahead releases :-)
<HrdwrBoB> rwabel: sometimes you don't need the nocd cracks
<rwabel> can I ask you sth about graphiccards
<HrdwrBoB> yeah shoot
<rwabel> I've a Nvidia 6600GT and get only about 5000 fps with glxgears
<rwabel> and all games under cedega run terribl
<rwabel> I don't know if it's the nvidia driver
<rwabel> under windows, doom3 runs fine
<rwabel> native games like ET runs also fine...but still think my fps are too low
<HrdwrBoB> hmm not sure
<rwabel> going to bed
<rwabel> bye
<HrdwrBoB> by
<HrdwrBoB> e
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<Burgundavia> rwabel, there is now a CategoryGames
<jsgotangco> hello
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> you running breezy
<jsgotangco> no im in hoary
<jsgotangco> why is there a showstopper again?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> a minor bug in totem
<jsgotangco> this oracle project is eating up a lot of my time lately and i haven't been contributing even *grumble*
<robitaille> humm...I still can't run/upgrade Breezy tonight....error 1 when setting up the latest xlibs (but that's OT)
<cafuego> robitaille: That's (I think) coz a dir that it wants to delete doesn't exist
<robitaille> cafuego: yes I think I found it: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12743
<Burgundavia> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItalianUbuntuComeMai
<rwabel> Burgundavia: ok
<rwabel> Burgundavia: should I put them in both categories from now on?
<mdke> he's not here
<mdke> rob^, did you get your svn account yet? I managed to talk to elmo yesterday, he apologised and said he would do em last night or this morning
<mdke> rwabel, ping
<mdke> rwabel, i was thinking, ImageFiles is not a very intuitive name, maybe we can think of a name which explains a bit better what is in it, what do you think?
<rwabel> right
<rwabel> I'll think about it...but I have to go. If you have one in mind, just change it...I'll see afterwards
<mdke> ah ok cool
<HrdwrBoB> Pictures
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, heh, that's why the page name is confusing, its not pictures
<HrdwrBoB> oh, heh
<rwabel> need to change that
<mdke> doing it
<rwabel> otherwise disc image would be ok?
<mdke> i've named it ManageISOFiles
<mdke> what do you think?
<HrdwrBoB> ah, that makes more sense
<rwabel> well the problem is that ISO is one kind of it
* HrdwrBoB realises what was meant by 'images'
<rwabel> but there are many other disc images
<HrdwrBoB> rwabel: yeah but people know what you mean
<rwabel> because a IMG etc aren't isos
<rwabel> and disc images?
<mdke> true
<rwabel> maybe I'll find sth other..I let it go through my mind...later
<mdke> okay
<mdke> later
<Mez> who's John Atkinson
<kbrooks> hey
<kbrooks> so.....
<rwabel> mdke: I would just stay with Manage disc images
<mdke> rwabel, isn't it disk with a k?
<rwabel> right
<rwabel> mdke: you are the englishman :-)
<mdke> i'm not 100% sure...
<rwabel> isn't disc british and disk american english?
<rwabel> mhh wikipedia uses disc
<rwabel> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso
<mdke> not sure
<rwabel> I'm pretty sure that most are using disc
<mdke> n p
<rwabel> it's harddisk but it's disc
<rwabel> I was looking on clonecd homepage
<jsgotangco> im getting sleepy already
<jsgotangco> and im in a shitty dial up in the middle of nowhereland
<mdke> ;)
<rwabel> dialup...what's thata again? ;-)
<rwabel> mdke: [[TableOfContents] ]  didn't know about that...should use that in my howto's :-)
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> i have off-site work
<mdke> rwabel, where it helps, sure, use it!
<rwabel> for sure in the long howto's with many heading
<jsgotangco> i really hate it
<mdke> my god these CC meetings are total crack
<rwabel> mdke: can you take a look at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VegaStrike why did it parse wrong?
<jsgotangco> come on make it start already im getting sleepy 
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> rwabel, no spaces before or after headings, just a new line after
<rwabel> ok
<rwabel> wasn't my entery...didn't know that
<rwabel> thanks
<mdke> np
<|rockinnerd|> <in cc meeting>
<rwabel> damn I like our UserDocumentation!
<kbrooks> <in cc meeting>
<jsgotangco> dude, you're not in Italy but you're the italian team contact?
<mdke> what can i say...
<jsgotangco> maybe i should start the VaticanTeam
<mdke> heh
<mdke> see what I mean about the meetings being crack?
<jsgotangco> we have a word for these kinds of people
<jsgotangco> not so sure how it translates to english
<robitaille> crack as being ????
<mdke> crazy
<jsgotangco> total crack
<robitaille> yes a bit chaotic at time
<mdke> what's your word for em?
<mdke> in tl
<jsgotangco> mdke: Pasaway
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i like it
<jsgotangco> if i describe it correctly, its people who go way out of line and yet think they are on topic
<mdke> yeah
<robitaille> I find these CC more  and more not that intersting....it seems it's 95% approving meebers only, without much content until some squeezed at the time when being just want to go home.
<mdke> did you see my 5 minutes in-out italian job?
<mdke> easy
<jsgotangco> the CC meetings before were quite better
* robitaille thinks he should go back to his breakfast...his typing is bad this morning.
<mdke> yes they were better
<robitaille> good wiki page mdke 
<mdke> the CC has become the place for people who want to appear important
<jsgotangco> but i guess its understandable for a growing project
<robitaille> I wonder if I should bring up again the question of @ubuntu.com addresses for members...
<jsgotangco> for some reason, im beginning to like RHEL day by day (because of my current job)
<kbrooks> jsgotangco: i agree that everyone is on crack
<robitaille> I always like the old RHL, just before it turned to fedora; I'm guessimg it's similar. 
<jsgotangco> robitaille: RHEL is old fedora, much like how debian describes stable
<robitaille> except for the price of RHEL :)
<jsgotangco> at work, where i manage some oracle dbs, we still have rhel 2.1 which is basically rh 7.2
<robitaille> but did played for a bit with WhiteBox linux.
<jsgotangco> rh has incredible support though, very professional and at par with that of Oracle's
<jsgotangco> MEDIAWIKI
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> these italians...tsk tsk...*wink*
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> just because I'm doing it openly
<mdke> all the other communities just did it
<robitaille> at least the italian have a community and a wiki full of content...
* robitaille tries not to think of the canadian loco team too much
<mdke> what happened to sabmoc
<mdke> he was cool
<jsgotangco> heck i don't even want to think of ours, i'm the only one who knows how to party
<robitaille> mdke:  he had some real-life-problems, so more or less just disapeared.  Haven't seem him online in weeks
<mdke> ah shame
<robitaille> yes
<jsgotangco> hmm he was enthusiastic about stuff before
<robitaille> I expect he will be back one day.  the problem had nothing to do with Ubuntu or computers
<jsgotangco> this revu tool is really nice...
<kbrooks> what is MOTU
<jsgotangco> its the people who maintain Universe
<jsgotangco> Masters Of The Universe
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> and ogra's he-man
<jsgotangco> wow using GAIM for IRC is nice and really colorful...
<jsgotangco> unlike what im used to with ERC
<kbrooks> xchat > gaim and erc on irc
<jsgotangco> i rarely use xchat
<jsgotangco> (rarely even use gnome lately)
<kbrooks> i like gnome
<jsgotangco> oh dont get me wrong i like it too...but im a keyboard person so...
<robitaille> tried gaim for irc.  Didn't like it.  Liked xchat as well  But Love irssi.
<mdke> its all about irssi
<Kinnison> irssi-text is good
<kbrooks> i like irssi
<kbrooks> but console is evil to me
<kbrooks> i'm sort of a linux newb
<jsgotangco> we all start somewhere
<kbrooks> seriously :P
<jsgotangco> i actually tried running mIRC before when i first started in rh
<robitaille> console is good...the console is your friend always there for you.  I have to reply to Corey's blog one of these days about the console.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i guess he didn't really get to use DOS back then
<jsgotangco> heck we rule back then
<robitaille> on a more on-topic thing, why is udu wiki staying as a separate wiki for so long?   
<jsgotangco> wordstar, lotus 123, dbase 3+
<robitaille> kids nowadays...they don't know anything but XWindows :)
<jsgotangco> my cousin used to have a sinclair
<jsgotangco> the thing only had like 6kb of memory
<robitaille> my first computer was a commodore 64.  But I had many dreams of having of a vic-20 like my cousin
<jsgotangco> did you have a trs-80? man everyone i knew who had one can program one-liner games back then
<robitaille> my dad had a trs-80 for works;  so I couldn't really play with it.
<jsgotangco> its so awesome i bugged my dad to buy me the portable version from tandy back then
<robitaille> but we use to code small games for my Texas Instrument calculator.
<jsgotangco> i still have it with me but it doesnt work anymore
<jsgotangco> in RPN?
<jsgotangco> i still have my HP 12C
<robitaille> of course RPN.  Used to drive my firends crazy since they couldn't borrow my calculator
<jsgotangco> (actually its my dad's)
<robitaille> normal people couldn't deal very well with rpn back then
<jsgotangco> yeah but people who still do RPN now are one of a kind :)
* jsgotangco blames japanese calculators
<robitaille> my wife still has a rpn calculator; actually it is the only working calculator in the house :)
<kbrooks> rpn?
<jsgotangco> robitaille: see? :)
<jsgotangco> kbrooks: Reverse Polish Notation
<robitaille> http://www.hpmuseum.org/rpn.htm
<jsgotangco> museum...it makes me look so old....
<robitaille> we are old compared to some the kids in the Ubuntu community :)
<jsgotangco> backports stuff
<jsgotangco> bleahh
<jsgotangco> afaic it should be well integrated into universe in the future
* mdke declares war on the word "official" and erases all Launchpad "teams"
<jsgotangco> aye
<kbrooks> lol.
<kbrooks> so... i implictly have a rpn
<jsgotangco> next thing we'll see there will be gang wars
<kbrooks> calucator
<robitaille> it was simpler when only main was "official"...anything else (universe, backports....kde...)  was just unsupported and not to be named :)
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0: do you work with backports on your guide?
<mdke> jsgotangco, ermm....
<jsgotangco> robitaille: i won't be surprised if we'll have our very own marillat in the future
<mdke> every voice in that guide advises the addition of backports
<jsgotangco> is that so, sorry i only touch universe
<robitaille> isn't what hoary-extra is?  a marillat closer to ubuntu?
<robitaille> personally I don't even use restricted or multiverse on my machines
* jsgotangco declares war as well with things official
<mdke> jsgotangco, even the bit about how to install apache says "add backports"
<jsgotangco> oh wow we're wild wild west then
<kbrooks> jsgotangco: i agree with mako
<kbrooks> talked too long
<kbrooks> uh, never mind
<kbrooks>  /notice
<kbrooks> brb
<jsgotangco> nice these Nigerian scam emails are getting better
<jsgotangco> mdke: official is getting ridiculous as days go by
<jsgotangco> jeezz i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> i'll see you guys later
<jsgotangco> this meeting is taking too long
<mdke> night jsgotangco 
<mgalvin> WOOHOO, commit access :)
<mdke> mgalvin, :)
<mdke> go crazy dude
<mgalvin> oh i will ;)
<mdke> aha
<mdke> the galvin onslaught begins
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-17
<nixternal> still reading the book jjesse?
<nixternal> woohoo
<jsgotangco> ?
<nixternal> woohoo
<nixternal> 
<jsgotangco> eh?
<nixternal> hehe...bored
<nixternal> <listitem><para>The <application>mkdir</application> (MaKeDIRectory) .....</para></listitem>     <- wouldn't it be clearer to do ->     <listitem><para>The <application>mkdir</application> (<emphasis>m</emphasis>a<emphasis>k</emphasis>e<emphasis>dir</emphasis>ectory</para></listitem>
<nixternal> i think the the M K DIR being bold, it makes it easier to read
* nixternal notes that it is just his 2 cents
<nixternal> hrmm..not emphasis either...but <keycap> </keycap> rather
<nixternal> im all messed up tonight
<nixternal> i need sleep
<nixternal> heh, i did exactly what i suggested..and let me be the first to say it looks like crap 
<drak0> anyone around that knows mysql
<Laser_away> mdke_: ping?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<jrib> Anyone want to confirm that instructions on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu do not actually enable multiverse?
<nixternal> checing now
<jrib> problem is that afaict the default sources.list on dapper do not include commented dapper multiverse repositories
<nixternal> hmm..i thought for universe and multiverse, there was more then just clicking a checkbox in the main window..i thought you had to go a little deeper with ubuntu
<nixternal> i do everything CLI...so i am somewhat dumb to the synaptic way..plus i use kubuntu
<nixternal> jrib: they are commented by default on kubuntu dapper installs
<nixternal> so they are in the sources.list
<nixternal> just commented out with the deb-src as well
<nixternal> man..that page needs to be CategoryCleanup bad...that is why there needs to be a set standard for screenshot images...there are 2 different looks going on there
<nixternal> i don't think the 'adding universe and multiverse' repositories section is correct
<jrib> ok, the pastebins without the commented multiverse must have been from upgrades
<nixternal> ahh
<jrib> got disconnected
<nixternal> heh, you didn't miss much
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<nixternal> if anyone catches mgalvin at all, find out info concerning the UWN, and if you already know, let me know..as the new one needs editing..and i can help if needed since i started #7
<Burgwork> nixternal, just run with it. Assume it is yours until he comes back
<nixternal> arg, roger that Burgwork
<nixternal> i will go over all the stuff other's have posted that want in and what not
<Burgwork> nobody is going to object to you releasing a UWN
<nixternal> ok..i just wanted to make sure of that
<Burgwork> nixternal, just pass it mdz first
<nixternal> i can do that
<Burgwork> nixternal, ok, the SU and U Magazine people like to talk about a lot of useless stuff
<Burgwork> like bzr branches, etc.
<nixternal> heh
<Burgwork> nixternal, what is your timeline for UWN?
<nixternal> i want to get out on saturday like it is supposed to
<Burgwork> cool, ok
<nixternal> they started out as being a Saturday-Saturday concept...and #6 didn't make it, so i want to get it back on track
<Burgwork> perfect
<LaserJock> so it'll be the edgy version then
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> edgy version?
<nixternal> did i miss something
<nixternal> it is going to be the "Doc Team Rulez" version ;)
<LaserJock> well, dapper was late so edgy is short to get back on track
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> i get it
<nixternal> gotta make the UWN killer too
<nixternal> there is a lot of topics people have posted that they want to get implemented..if possible, i would like to knock them out..
<LaserJock> on #7?
<nixternal> if possible yes...as people have been posting topics for over 2 weeks that they would like to see in it
<nixternal> like 'Programs of the Day" and what not
<nixternal> crimsun: http://mfrost.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/levitate.jpg
<nixternal> ok Burgwork, next time make sure they aren't in here ;)
<Burgwork> nixternal, right
<nixternal> heheh
<nixternal> you know exactly what im talking about...i wanted to comment so bad, and not hurt feelings or upset someone
<Burgwork> it was comment, if they overheard, meh
<nixternal> hahaha
<crimsun> nixternal: nope. NOT YOURS.
<nixternal> that one was "jumping for crimsun"
<nixternal> crimsun: there are more to be found here -> http://cuteoverload.com/
<crimsun> my god, that's pony abuse
* crimsun blacklists that Web site
<nixternal> lol
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-18
<Burgwork> crimsun, there is nothing wrong with feeling good while looking at cute animals
<crimsun> feeling good, yes. I don't feel good about them.
<crimsun> they're obviously being treated inappropriately. :p
<jjesse> is the dvd considered to be the live cd?
<Burgwork> jjesse, you talking about the book?
<jjesse> Burgwork: yeah i am
<Burgwork> jjesse, whiprush is on it, no worries
<jjesse> ok, got an email from deb 11:20 am this morning
<Burgwork> jjesse, spoke with her a few hours ago
<jjesse> cool then i will ignore
<LaserJock> jjesse: would 19:00 work?
<jjesse> wold for me
<Burgwork> for what, the doc team meeting>
<Burgwork> ?>
<Burgwork> ?
<Burgwork> bugger
<LaserJock> I wonder if 21st at 19:00 would be the best
<jjesse> yeah, anything before 22:00 is good usually
<LaserJock> oh
<LaserJock> then maybe 20:00 
<LaserJock> since mdke__ said 20:00-22:00 seemed good for people
<nixternal> hiya jjesse!!
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<nixternal> well, im now a kubuntu member ;)
<jjesse> rock and roll :)
<crimsun> congrats
<nixternal> hehe thanks
<crimsun> now we can assign all kde boogs to you.
<nixternal> hehe...no mo boogs
<crimsun> oh you'll LOVE boogs
<nixternal> i see enough of um...keep um til boog day
<crimsun> that's tomorrow
<jsgotangco> good morning
<jjesse> good morning jsgotangco
<nixternal> mornin' jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
* jsgotangco rsyncs today's build
<jjesse> nixternal: do you have too much work on your plate kubuntu wise?
<jjesse> nixternal: hmm gotta run will chat later
<jsgotangco> 2 hours for an rsync sheesshhh
<jsgotangco> curse you rsync scum!
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> at least you don't have to bzr it ;-)
<crimsun> dude rsync womps the crap out of everything else
<jsgotangco> true
<LaserJock> crimsun: not if I've got a goood connection at the uni
<crimsun> LaserJock: not sure how that affects rsync's superiority
<nixternal_> [18:54]  <jjesse> nixternal: do you have too much work on your plate kubuntu wise?
<nixternal_> [18:57]  <nixternal> can't say that i do jjesse, so if you need something, let me know..and if i can do it, i shall ;)
<nixternal_> [18:57]  <nixternal> also jjesse, that bug from -devel, really isn't a bug, but more of a wishlist item..i can confirm it, but added a "needs info" status
<nixternal_> i don't know what i did, but my network didn't like it
<nixternal> jeesh
<LaserJock> crimsun: cause I could get a whole .iso in the time it takes to rsync from Ubuntu's server
<crimsun> LaserJock: I don't think that's a reflection of rsync but of connectivity.
<LaserJock> sure
<crimsun> and for those of us on dial-up, it's a lifesaver.
<LaserJock> but rsync can be awesome, but if the connectivity stinks it's not so much fun
<LaserJock> for sure, I use it all the time
<LaserJock> I just wish more people had rsync servers
<nixternal> crimsun: http://mfrost.typepad.com/cute_overload/horses/index.html
<jsgotangco> lol
<nixternal> hehe
<jsgotangco> horses inside the house hrmmm
<nixternal> i wouldn't doubt it..i told you about that kid walking a horse at the local 4th fest here like it was a pet dog
<jsgotangco> ive never seen such minaturized breeds...is that natural?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> they are using them as "seeing eye horses" now as well
<crimsun> 17:56 < crimsun> my god, that's pony abuse
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> and there is more pony abuse for ya
<nixternal> who is taking over the fridge?  that as to be added ;)
<jsgotangco> probably one of the fridge editors
<Madpilot> *someone* needs to take of the Fridge, it hasn't been updated in almost six weeks
<Madpilot> take over, not take of...
<nixternal> sounds like a job for Madpilot ;)
<Madpilot> no, I ain't volunteering :)
<jsgotangco> bug the fridge editors for sure
<Madpilot> I might be interested in being part of an expaned Fridge-submitters team, otoh
<Madpilot> expanded... gah, I really can't spell tonight...
<Plug> what needs to be fridged?  UWNs?
<Madpilot> those, and random other stuff
<Madpilot> very random, in the case of the URL that nixternal gave above :)
* nixternal is working on the UWN right now as a matter of fact ;)
<Plug> I wouldnt mind helping out there.
<nixternal> well..im going to finish posting some updates and then you can have at it
<nixternal> heh, good story...while waiting for my Ubuntu Membership to get approved by Mako, I got Kubuntu Membership..woohoo!!!
<nixternal> btw, this UWN, Feature of the Week is gonna be 'KDE' specific for once ;)
<nixternal> does RSI break come installed by default with Ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> nixternal: its basically the same honestly, because kubuntu members is under ubuntu-members
<jsgotangco> so does edubuntu-members
<crimsun> nixternal: no.
<nixternal> didn't think so crimsun, someone pasted to the uwn requested page with very vague info..
<crimsun> for reference, you can check with ``apt-cache rdepends rsibreak''
<nixternal> here i go
<Madpilot> damn, giant netsplit - look at #u!
<nixternal> which is odd...because i though i was connected via brown. since it is close to the house
<nixternal> ok, i updated the UWN #7 a little more..i will get more news and such posted over the next couple of days
<Burgundavia> nixternal: excellent
<jsgotangco> cool
<jsgotangco> since mgalvin has been MIA, i'll look into it tonight as well so we can send earlier 
<jsgotangco> probably saturday/sunday
<nixternal> i was still thinkin' of saturday..since that is the scheduled date ;)
<jsgotangco> no worries
<nixternal> the UWN is a Saturday to Saturday type deal..so we are good
<nixternal> there is a spot for new edgy files for each distro...researchin' that info will be fun
<jsgotangco> did you fill in for the kubuntu stuff?
<Madpilot> nixternal, ping #ubuntu-devel or the dev ML
<nixternal> i will work on the distro related stuff more this week
<jsgotangco> cool
<nixternal> i just hit the 'news" and the "tips of the week" right now..trying to clear out the 'community cache'
<jsgotangco> it seems we're covered then and its only tuesday
<nixternal> better to be ahead of schedule ;)
<nixternal> arg..i gotta be at the uni in 6 hours
<nixternal> thank god it is just paperwork related
<jsgotangco> uni you still go to school?
<nixternal> im gettin' ready to go back
<nixternal> refresh the C++ and learn C# and .Net (mono really)
<jsgotangco> enrico: those "basics" blog posts are awesome nice refreshers as well
<jrib> nixternal: hey, you around?
<nixternal> kind of
<jjesse> morning :)
<jjesse> nixternal: send me a ping when you are available
<hayden> is there a downloadable version of Ubuntu Server Guide by Ubuntu Documentation Team (to buy)?
<mdke> you can download it for free
<mdke> hayden: see http://help.ubuntu.com and choose the PDF
<hayden> mdke, ok thanks alot
<mdke> if you want to buy a printed copy, see http://lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<hayden> ok thakns
<nixternal> jjesse: ping!!!
<jjesse> pong
<jjesse> did you get my email?
<nixternal> yes sir, i replied as well
<jjesse> ok checking
<jjesse> hmm didn't get it :(
<nixternal> you should be gettin' it soon
<jjesse> anywyas what did it say?
<nixternal> can't remember
<nixternal> j/k
<nixternal> im open, i can do the knots, and i got Kubuntu Membership
<nixternal> pretty much in that order as well
<jjesse> awesome
<jjesse> nixternal: did you see this: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily-live/20060718/
<nixternal> woohoo
<nixternal> good job Riddell!!!
<nixternal> is that the release page that you referred to in your email?  but the offical one of course?
<jjesse> kinda http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/flight5 is what mgalvin created
<nixternal> ahh..ok..misread the email
<jsgotangco> is that kubuntu knot-1
<nixternal> yes sir
<jsgotangco> we still don't have edubuntu knot-1
<jjesse> i don't know if it is the official flight 1
<nixternal> tisk tisk
<nixternal> it is a nightly
<jjesse> or knot
<jsgotangco> there's an issue with xorg
<jsgotangco> in the post install
<jsgotangco> on 18
<jsgotangco> i dunno if there's 18.1 or something
<jsgotangco> when you have an iso, you can just rsync from from the daily builds so you don't have to redownload again
<jsgotangco> even from a dapper iso
<jjesse> yup
<jsgotangco> we have a nifty script =)
<jjesse> rsync and then relaunch vm session
<jsgotangco> do yo vm directly from the iso?
<jjesse> i do
<jsgotangco> hmm i should try that, can vmware player do that?
<nixternal> mount -loop?
<jsgotangco> or regular vmware
<jjesse> vmplayer can, just change the config file to look for a .iso as the cdrom
<jjesse> i think there is a page o nthe wiki
<nixternal> nice
<jsgotangco> cool
<jjesse> mgalvin had a posting on his blog about it
<nixternal> i always did a mount -loop on the .iso image
<nixternal> mount -o loop -t iso9660 edgy-alternate-i386.iso /mnt/iso
<nixternal> jjesse: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/flight5     that is more of a "Release Information" page, with 3 links at the very bottom to the testing pages on the wiki and what not
<nixternal> that is why i am kind of confused as to why it is called /testing
<kgoetz> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToSetupSoundCards has a section "ALSA ISA cards", which has a subcatagory "OSS drivers". should these be two seperate sections ? (i just made isa+pci seperate)
<nixternal> i can think of a sound guru in here that would have the best answer for it...and btw, he loves ponies!!!
<kgoetz> lol
<nixternal> heh, to use an iso in VMware Server, after you create the actual VM portion, prior to powering up the first time...edit the settings for the cd-rom, and select iso..that easy
<nixternal> installin' edgy now
<jjesse> nixternal: the reason that it is in testing is because they are announcments for testing the different flights
<nixternal> ahhh..ok
<jjesse> nixternal: they were created on the wiki and then moved over, but i don't think the ones for kubuntu flights were
<nixternal> hiya mdke
<jsgotangco> hey you
* jrib pokes nixternal 
<nixternal> whats up jrib
<jrib> nixternal: I helped a few more people today adding multiverse because it wasn't commented for them today.  Do you think the kubuntu sources would be different than the ubuntu ones?
<nixternal> only for desktop specific items..but the sources are exactly the same i thought
<jsgotangco> its the same
* jsgotangco is getting pissed at the news day by day
<nixternal> heh..news about???
<nixternal> as long as it isn't UWN
<jrib> nixternal: do you mind pastebinning your default one?
<nixternal> i don't have a default one...mine has more repositories then you can shake a stick at
<jrib> hmm I must have misunderstood you yesterday then
<jrib> alright, I'll boot up a live cd and check it out
<dsas> I presume https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Strace and other debugging procedures do belong on w.u.c?
<dsas> Should https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingProgramCrash be on the same wiki as Strace and Backtrace?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-19
<RichJ> http://home.comcast.net/~nixternal/images/misc/tmp/edgy1.png
<RichJ> ^^ kubuntu edgy on a lappy runnin' better then dapper has actually
<RichJ> this lappy doesnt run hot
<jjesse> @time australia
<jjesse> @time sydney
<Ubugtu> Current time in Australia/Sydney: July 19 2006, 12:16:02
<jsgotangco> jjesse: yep you coming? =)
<jjesse> i wish, i was just curious as to what time it was there
<jjesse> don't have any vacation fo 6 months at new job :(
<jsgotangco> i think au has 3 timezones
<jsgotangco> its  a pretty big place
<Burgwork> pish, three times zones
<Burgwork> I eat more food for dinner than that
<LaserJock> hehe
<jsgotangco> yeah when you're in plane, you only see land
<Burgwork> ok, why I am I at work. It is 7pm at night
<Burgwork> well, I guess I will be off. See you all in a bit
<jjesse> go home then
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: !!!!
<LaserJock> what?
<jsgotangco> We were impressed to find included among the very good documentation that ships with Ubuntu a software packaging guide.
<jsgotangco> eweek
<jsgotangco> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1990780,00.asp
<LaserJock> wahooo!
<LaserJock> I'm glad somebody enjoyed it ;-)
<jsgotangco> eweek dude
<nixternal> jjesse: pingaling?
<LaserJock> ok, I got a docbook question
<LaserJock> the pg is split up into different .xml files, 1 for each chapter
<nixternal> ok, i don't have a docbook answer
<LaserJock> in the main .xml file I have all the <!ENTITY tags to include the .ent files, etc.
<LaserJock> now in the chapter .xml files do I need to do it again?
<LaserJock> in the Desktop Guide it is done that way
<LaserJock> but it seems redundant to me
<nixternal> sounds redundant to me as well, however the <!ENTITY tags are also calling links to the page as well correct?
<LaserJock> ok, well take <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../../../libs/global.ent"> for example
<nixternal> i know in the packaging guide, i was working with the 'Winmodems' section and there were url's called up 
<LaserJock> I have that at the top of every .xml file
<LaserJock> if packagingguide.xml includes the .xml files it seems like they should already know globalent
<nixternal> and it should be, so information in that .xml file can get more info or what not from the global file..the main.xml is just going to call all the .xml files into one location
<nixternal> hmm...well also, that is done for the xml2html stuff when doing a 'make' in the docs directory
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: you don't need to refer to every entity for all the pages
<nixternal> finally someone with a real answer ;)
<jsgotangco> the child pages can be just simple docbook files with no entity calls
<LaserJock> ok, that's what it looked like to me
<jsgotangco> unless you atually use something from global.ent which is already handled by the parent xml file
<jsgotangco> they make your whole document modular i guess
<jsgotangco> in a shallow way
<nixternal> plus i believe they are also in all the .xml files because of people copy and pasting structure
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> it doesnt really hurt but its kind of redundant
<nixternal> SWEET!!!   my edgy install on the lappy actually runs the fan keeping it cool
<nixternal> dapper doesn't run the fan OOTB
<nixternal> http://home.comcast.net/~nixternal/fdal
<nixternal> heh
<jsgotangco> if you have it parsed and cleaned with a commercial editor, it'll just remove the entity calls from the child nodes
<nixternal> never mind that
<nixternal> http://home.comcast.net/~nixternal/images/misc/tmp/edgy1.png
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: what? gedit isn't sufficent? ;-)
<LaserJock> don't tell Matthew
<jsgotangco> did you upgrade or install?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: hey i already did commercial docbook work, so i have sinned ;)
<nixternal> install
<jsgotangco> brown kde yuck
<nixternal> hehe..i did that..it isn't default
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: you dirty, dirty man :-)
<jsgotangco> vmware! cheater!
<nixternal> not vmware, that is on my laptop
<jsgotangco> such a small resolution
<nixternal> 800x600
<nixternal> ;(
* jsgotangco cringes
<nixternal> then i resized it to 640x480
<jsgotangco> i wonder if today's build is installable
<nixternal> that is what that is installed from
<nixternal> only problem is the sources.list file being created with only edgy-security and cdrom repos
<jsgotangco> there's 18.2
<jsgotangco> woohooo
<jsgotangco> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/report.html
<jsgotangco> this rsyncer script is really handy
<LaserJock> yeah, cbx33 wrote a GUI frontend for it ;-)
<jsgotangco> really?
<LaserJock> I haven't tried it out yet
<LaserJock> grasynco
<LaserJock> in honor of ogra ;-)
<jsgotangco> i think its pretty straightforward to do this in zenity rather than actually do it in glade
<LaserJock> probably
<LaserJock> of course you gotta soup it up a bit ;-)
<LaserJock> I like zenity
<jsgotangco> heh yeah
<LaserJock> but a lot of "real" programmers don't, I don't think
<jsgotangco> well its not supposed to replace a glade interface
<LaserJock> no, but it is realy easy use
<LaserJock> when you just need to put a little GUI on a script
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> minimalist apps
<jsgotangco> hehe
<LaserJock> I used it to put a little filechooser thing on front of squeak
<nixternal> easiest way to see what is actually 'bleeding edge' in the upcoming knot release for kubuntu?
<nixternal> for documentation purposes
<LaserJock> edgy-changes?
<nixternal> i know of:   2.6.17 kernel, kde 3.5.3 (3.5.4 soon), Amarok 1.4.1
<nixternal> yes LaserJock
<nixternal> don't make me go through the devel commits please ;)
<LaserJock> If I have to then so do you ;-)
<nixternal> gah
<nixternal> i just want the big items really..the things that will make people read the release info and go "oh cool"
<nixternal> ipodslave doesn't tickle a fancy
<nixternal> amarok, kde 3.5.3 with 3.5.4 coming, new kernel..stuff like that
<nixternal> broken adept package
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> i just pinged the kubuntu dev's for the info
<nixternal> i will make them sell me stuff ;)
<LaserJock> just say it's got the latest crack, period ;-)
<nixternal> interesting...OOo in edgy is older then OOo in Dapper ;)
<LaserJock> what's OOo? ;-)
<nixternal> open office
<LaserJock> and why aren't you using LaTeX?
<nixternal> OpenOffice.org = OOo
<nixternal> hmm
<LaserJock> nixternal: note the ;-) at the end of that question
<nixternal> doh
<LaserJock> i.e. extreme sarcasm
<nixternal> LaTeX do spreadsheets?
<nixternal> ;)
<LaserJock> that's what emacs is for
<nixternal> Presentations?
<LaserJock> LaTeX
<nixternal> LaTeX for a presentation?
<nixternal> i know it is used for documents now, but presentations
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> i did not know that
<nixternal> can you view those presentation with MS Office?
<LaserJock> pdfs
<LaserJock> so acroread
<nixternal> im talking like power point presentations
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> kpdf, no adobe junk here
<nixternal> i am gonna have to check this out
<LaserJock> you run acroread in full screen mode
<LaserJock> and use hyperlinks
<LaserJock> you can embed things to I believe
<nixternal> that sounds like a lot of work
<LaserJock> it is
<LaserJock> but it's LaTeX so it's perfect looking output
<nixternal> i can honestly say, i have never ever used LaTeX, or even looked into it at all
<nixternal> i see it is for typesetting
<nixternal> you know..i bet i used 'ports'
<LaserJock> we use it for virtually all document writing in my field
<LaserJock> well, the weirdos like my boss  anyway
<nixternal> ahh..so you don't use docbooks in your field ;)
<LaserJock> heck no
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> it's too new
<LaserJock> wasn't created like 30 years ago
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> we use latex for papers and dissertations
<LaserJock> but more and more Office is being used, unfortunately
<LaserJock> stupid macs ;-)
<nixternal> hmm..latex been replaced with 'tetex' i take it?
<nixternal> in ubuntu
<LaserJock> umm,  I think tetex is just a packaging of tex
<LaserJock> it has latex in it
<LaserJock> latex is newer than plain tex, I think
<nixternal> sudo apt-get install latex = no available, but referred to by another package
<LaserJock> yeah, there isn't a latex package
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> ok
<LaserJock> it's included in tetex
<nixternal> you use tetex then?
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> k
<LaserJock> it's all the same thing
<nixternal> im getting ready to go back to school..local for free..and take c++ and c# courses...then im going to go back and finish my MBA
<nixternal> i want to take speach and writing courses at the local as well
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> I just want to be done with school for a while
<nixternal> it is covered by illinois veterans grant so
<LaserJock> I've been doing it too long
<nixternal> so i can see
<nixternal> ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> i kind of wish i would have done the college thing right out of highschool..but i hated school so much then..so i just joined the navy
<nixternal> i got my bachelors degree from university of maryland while i was in the military
<LaserJock> well, some days I wish I had joined the navy ;-)
<nixternal> i started my MBA at Kellog/Northwestern in 2002
<nixternal> not worth it anymore
<nixternal> unless you are going to be an officer
<LaserJock> I almost did it but I started college to soon
<LaserJock> by the time I could have joined I was already working on my Bachelors
<LaserJock> so it would have been kinda pointless
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> but my cousin joined the Army
<LaserJock> he was doing ROTC
<LaserJock> then he messed up his back during basic
<nixternal> now that sucks
<LaserJock> and for some stupid reson didn't show up back at the base when he was supposed to
<LaserJock> so they declared him a deserter
<nixternal> when i joined i wanted to be a navy seal, so i went to buds and almost completed, but blew out my knee..they were going to med discharge me, but i did the phy tests above reqs., so they let me stay
<LaserJock> now he's got all this legal stuff to try to get a discharge without jail time
<nixternal> i did combat engineering..so i did a lot of hydraulics, pneumatics, electronics and what not
<LaserJock> oh, cool
<nixternal> a ton of documentation actually
<LaserJock> I've watch lots of buds on TV :-)
<LaserJock> tough stuff
<nixternal> i never really thought about that..for some reason, every project i get involved with, i tend to do documentation
<LaserJock> you're a natural ;-)
<nixternal> not really..as  my grammar is horrible, but i always seem to make do with it
<LaserJock> my brother-in-law was in the Marines
<nixternal> growing up in chicago, propper anything goes out the window
<LaserJock> sniper in Iraq
<nixternal> sweet
<LaserJock> when he was done he wanted to go back in to the Army to do some sort of special ops stuff
<LaserJock> but I don't know if he has or not
<nixternal> spec ops would be a blast
<nixternal> but if i had to do it all over again..it would be tough, but i think i would go communications/IT
<nixternal> i had the chance to go Nuke, but i turned it down fast
<LaserJock> he has some interesting stories from Fallujah, I don't envy him
<nixternal> i told the recruiter about submarines, 150 men go down, 75 couples come up
<nixternal> ya, i spent plenty of time in the persian gulf...way to hot for me
<nixternal> and bosnia was freezing
<nixternal> only thing keeping you warm in bosnia was the bullets flying by, and the mass amounts of potato liquor
<LaserJock> I've thought about doing chemistry stuff, but chemical weapons scare me too much
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> my uncle loves that stuff..as he is infected from nam, flat out nuts, but crazy rich now because of it ;)
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Kubuntu/Edgy/Knot1?action=show
<nixternal> that is what i am working on that needs the info
<nixternal> im about to blow the wiki up!!!
<Madpilot> cool!
<Madpilot> why, though?
<nixternal> they must be doing maintenance
<nixternal> it goes so slow for me
* iGama is now away, auto-away after 20 minutes (log\on pager\on)
<trappist> <3 auto-away messages
<mdke_> trappist!
<mdke_> long time no see bud
<mdke_> how's it going?
<LaserJock> mdke_: long time no see!
<jjesse> i think mdke_ is hiding again :)
<LaserJock> typical
<LaserJock> every time I show up ...
<mdke_> LaserJock: you are just in the wrong time zone
<LaserJock> mdke_: true, true
<LaserJock> with every 05:00 meeting I realize that more and more ;-)
<mdke_> i have been busy lately though
<LaserJock> that's what I was thinking
<LaserJock> work?
<LaserJock> like real work?
<mdke_> more or less
<mdke_> some job hunting too
<jjesse> any success w/ job hunting?
<mdke_> not yet, I haven't really done much so far
<mdke_> just sorting myself out
<jjesse> goood luck
<mdke_> trappist: can you make it to the friday meeting? I'm wondering whether your "security guide" idea is going to be an option we want to investigate for edgy
<mdke_> jjesse: thanks!
<LaserJock> mdke_: trying to figure out which career field or have you gotten farther than that?
<trappist> oops
<trappist> what time friday?
<LaserJock> 19:00 UTC
<trappist> that puts it at 4pm I think - yeah, I can make that
<trappist> err
<trappist> now, that puts it at 1400 which is not 4pm, which I can also make
<trappist> s/now/no/
<trappist> mdke_: yes
* mdke slaps screen
<mdke> trappist: cool!
<LaserJock> do we have agenda items?
<nixternal> good mornin'
<LaserJock> we seem to do better with having specific topics rather than, "How's it going?" ... "Good, I guess"
<nixternal> 11am already..wow i got some sleep
* trappist messes with his .irbrc for a quick way to get utc-to-local
<LaserJock> unfortunately I just usually break down and use iCal
<LaserJock> which is great when things are scheduled on fridge
* mdke__ slaps everything
* LaserJock sends mdke some network bandaids
<therealmdk1> my god
<therealmdk1> it's not my lucky day
<nixternal> mine too
<nixternal> i woke up to inbox presents
<nixternal> hiya mdke
<mdke> hello.
<mdke> I'm caught in a continuous loop of screen crashing alternated with my network going down
<jjesse> bummer
<trappist> I don't think I've ever seen screen crash
<mdke> well, either screen or irssi does something bad quite often for me
<mdke> I can get into and out of it, but then can't type anything
<nixternal> that isn't good
<nixternal> dapper or have you stepped up to edgy?
<LaserJock> mdke: oh, I get that too
<LaserJock> with screen
<LaserJock> it just locks up
<LaserJock> it seems like I found a key sequnce one time to fix that
<LaserJock> but I can't remember it :(
<jsgotangco> welcome to debian sid
<mdke> bbl
<jjesse> who did the desktop guide again for kubuntu dapper?
<LaserJock> robotgeek perhaps?
<nixternal> http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/docs/
<nixternal> jjesse: ^^ that is the patch i was telling you about for kubuntu dekstop guide
<nixternal> the winmodem part...it probably needs even more work..as that whole topic is somewhat touchy
<mhz> hi guys
<mhz> Is this page working its purposes? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FaqOnIrc
<mhz> maybe I am too away from english, but I'd bet such name is for FAQs about IRC
<mhz> or not?
<jjesse> i didn't know it existed
<nixternal> i agree
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> that page is umm..bad
* mhz feels he's not that wrong then
<mhz> :D
<nixternal> it started out as IRC FAQ for the top paragraph
<nixternal> then it went to just flat out FAQ
<nixternal> good find mhz
<mhz> thx, nixternal 
<mhz> form time to time, I find time to rview a loooooong list of "i wanna read this page"
<nixternal> jjesse: who is in charge of shipit?  i ordered my cd's last week, for Ubuntu Chicago, and I got them today, with a display box, and stickers..i owe big time gratitude to somebody
<jjesse> kubuntu ones? then riddell i guess but other then that i don't know, maybe colin?
<nixternal> ubuntu ones
<nixternal> im waiting for kubuntu ones as well
<nixternal> i will have 500 cd's total for our event
<nixternal> 200 ubuntu, 200 kubuntu, and 1 edubuntu
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> 100 edubuntu
<jjesse> that's awesome
<nixternal> 500 CDs requested in 2006-07-10. 200 CDs approved and sent to the shipping company in 2006-07-12. Please note requests usually take from 4 to 6 weeks
<nixternal> i got them today
<nixternal> 1 week exactly..now that is awesome!!!
<LaserJock> nixternal: I was going to beat you over the head with a lulu.com copy of the PG if you only got 1 Edubuntu cd
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> im going to take pics of all they sent..you guys won't believe the love
<nixternal> you think i was impressed with Ubuntu before...my lord it rocks to much!!!
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm regretting I only grabed 1 of each at Paris
<LaserJock> I think my LUG would appreciate some
<jjesse> i got 10 kubuntus from shipit finally :)
<nixternal> ya me too jjesse
<nixternal> last week
<nixternal> no stickers ;(
<mhz> Guys, I have a TXT with lots of IRC commands, and an explanation for each. Can we add it to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat ?
<mhz> yeah, of course I could wiki it
<nixternal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nixternal/sets/72157594204855756/
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-20
<robotgeek> hmm, Laser_away . ping back?
<Laser_away> robotgeek: did I ping you?
<osg> hihi
<osg> Anyone around?
<Burgwork> osg, not really
<osg> Ah.
<Burgwork> osg, what do you need?
<osg> Burgwork: Nothing. Was just wondering about writing for Ubunut.
<osg> I am a tech. writer.
<osg> And I write in DocBook and XML.
<Burgwork> ah, cool
<Burgwork> currently we keep our documentation in svn, written in docbok
<osg> Nice.
<Burgwork> we are currently sort of in hibernation mode, not writing much
<osg> I use Oxygen as my editor.
<osg> Ah.
<Burgwork> the next version of Ubuntu is due out Oct 26th and we need to be finished  writing by sept
<osg> Well, I can get used to what is out there.
<osg> Ah.
<osg> I can review stuff.
<Burgwork> our current plans involve merging the ubuntu book and the desktop guide
<Burgwork> we are also working on updating the packaging guide, working more the server guide and anything else that you can think of
<Burgwork> we are very much about self driven projects
<Burgwork> nobody is going to tell you do anything, unless you ask
<osg> There is an "&" that needs to be replaced by "and" in the TOC here: https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html
<osg> For example.
<Burgwork> osg, cool
<osg> That kind of stuff.
<Burgwork> if you want to get started, pull down the svn and send a patch to the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<Burgwork> a few patches and we will offer you svn access
<Burgwork> here is a more indepth guide to the above
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<osg> Thanks.  I will start by getting familiar with what is out there. Then progress with the svn.
<Burgwork> you can browse our inprogress docs at doc.ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> our finished docs are at help.ubuntu.com
<osg> Thanks.
<osg> How long have you been writing?
<Burgwork> since dec 2004
<osg> Ah.
<Burgwork> what other things have you been working on?
<osg> I wrote for Cray for 5 years.
<Burgwork> ah, big stuff
<osg> So, C, C++, Fortran programming environment stuff.
<Burgwork> most of us have little formal documentation experience
<osg> Scientific libraries.
<osg> Well, it is about time that I teach a little, I suppose.
<osg> :)
<osg> Or make myself available.
<Burgwork> yep
<osg> What got you into writing?
<Burgwork> I went to Mataro (the first Ubuntu development conference) and was looking for a meaningful way to get involved
<Burgwork> I ended up chatting with the doc people
* mhz knows Burgwork  has done lots of terrific work
<osg> Nice.
<Burgwork> more recently I have been working on the wiki and some marketing stuff
<osg> More recently, I have been writing about a couple proprietary online applications.
<theCore> the docteam is a nice little community
<theCore> osg: I hope you will join 
<theCore> :)
<osg> Well, thanks for the welcoming vibe.  :)
<osg> I think I already have.
<osg> Ok, let me read a bit and I will chat with you later.
<Burgwork> anyway, it is crazy that I am still at work at twenty past 7. I will see you all later (at most, 40 minutes)
<osg> Ah, you are in CA?
<osg> Or West coast?
<robotgeek> Laser_away: yup. maybe a day ago
<mhz> hi guys
<mhz> I was just taking a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/pdf/ubuntu/es/
<mhz> I downloded the packaging guide
<mhz> from there
<mhz> unfortunatelly, most of the stuff I read is still english
<mhz> is that normal?
<mhz> should that be adviced prior to download?
<theCore> mhz, I think the translations aren't finished
<theCore> let me see
<mhz> eventhough I am spanish speaker, I must admit I hardly ever read anything in spanish
<mhz> so, only upon request of a friend of mine is that I got to read such URL docs
<mhz> and just noticed it is only the first pages that are translated
<mhz> but the technical part (most important one) isn't
* mhz is not complainig at all, just pointing that maybe a "note this is WIP" is good
<theCore> mhz: maybe you help with the translation?
<mhz> hehehehe
<mhz> I knew something like that would happen
<mhz> BTW, re translations, is the Doc team the one to approve translated Code of Conducts?
<mhz> theCore: and yes, I know that the best is that if i find a mistake, I get to fix it
<mhz> theCore: how ever, there are enough translators and hands for ubuntu stuff
<theCore> mhz: translators are users from the community
<mhz> however, there are lots less hands for edubuntu, where I help the most (in my time)
<theCore> mhz: well, improvements in Ubuntu, are also improvements in Edubuntu
<mhz> actually, incredibly, so far it seems I am the only one in edubuntu doing stuff for latinamerican issues
<mhz> theCore: true
<mhz> re Code of Conduct, we have translated it into spanish, I am editing now. Can that be available for spanish speakers wanting to sign it?
<nixternal> can i get someone to do a quick "once over" of this -> http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/docs/aKademy_blurb.pdf
<theCore> nixternal: "Free Software, as in free of charge", I'm not sure if it is the right way the say this
<mhz> Free Software, Free as in Feedom :)
<theCore> ah, that's the one I was looking for!
<jsgotangco> nixternal: you going to akademy?
<theCore> thanks mhz
<mhz> np
<nixternal> don't know yet jsgotangco
<nixternal> heh, i just got a funny phone call from the old man
<nixternal> he is on a business trip, and one of his salesman calls and is like, im trying to type up a document on the laptop, and when i press u i get 4 and when i press o i get 6 and what not...didn't know how to fix it
<nixternal> so i sat there and laughed at them being "engineers" and what not
<nixternal> i had the salesman believing his keyboard went bad for a good 10 minutes
<mhz> lol
<mhz> User Friendly story!
<nixternal> hehe ya
<nixternal> jsgotangco: is the wording/content all right with that?  be brutally honest...that thing needs to rock
<jsgotangco> i just took a glance
<mhz> the burgers are in town
<nixternal> that means trouble
<mhz> heheh
<nixternal> Burgundavia: http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/docs/aKademy_blurb.pdf        <- for the aKademy program...since kubuntu is a big sponsor they get a full page blurb..that is what i have so far...please if you can check it out...feel free to be brutally honest
<nixternal> everyone, check that out...brutally honest is what i need ;)
<nixternal> ICE CREAM TIME!!!!  bbiaf
<jsgotangco> kubuntu is an official partner project instead of portion i guess
<jsgotangco> because you cannot really sayy its a subset
<Burgundavia> nixternal: hmm, I see a lot of words
<Burgundavia> nixternal: can you also tell them to drop the "shaping the future of the free desktop" part
<Burgundavia> nixternal: they are shaping the future of A free desktop
<nixternal> shaping the future of the free desktop?
<jsgotangco> "the" can only mean one desktop and that is kde on your side
<jsgotangco> "a" can be described as a unified one
<nixternal> where is that located though?
<nixternal> i know i didn't write that in the .pdf you are looking at
<nixternal> lol
<Burgundavia> nixternal: top of the academy page
<nixternal> oh
<nixternal> lol
<Burgundavia> gnome has dropped "the leading free desktop" from their press releases
<Burgundavia> specifically because the recognition that there is more than one
<nixternal> im not working with aKademy at all, just helping Riddell get this done so kubuntu can have a blurb in the 'sponsors' portion of the aKademy program
<Burgundavia> ok then, pass my words on up
<jsgotangco> well we can't force nixternal to change it heh after all he's doing a kubuntu blurb, not akademy
<Burgundavia> as for the pamphlet, hmm
<nixternal> hehe, i can do that ;)
<nixternal> that is just a crude rought draft
<Burgundavia> I would love to see the centre of that be one big kubuntu logo
<Burgundavia> with the words flowing around it
<Burgundavia> have about half as many words
<nixternal> well, what you also see online, ins't what is going to be inthe pamphlet..i just made it pretty for us to read
<nixternal> they are getting a txt file and thats it..they will do the formatting
<Burgundavia> dive less into the technical details (archs, etc.)
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<Burgundavia> that is too bad
<nixternal> ooh, i like your idea
<nixternal> ALOT!!!
<Burgundavia> everybody knows what KDE is, or at least they should, so no need for K Desktop Environment (KDE)
<Burgundavia> just KDE will work
<nixternal> ok
<Burgundavia> kubuntu is an official partner, not portion
<nixternal> that is true, since it is a KDE developers meeting ;)
<Burgundavia> partner project, to be exact
<nixternal> fixed that
<Burgundavia> Kubuntu means "towards humanity" - I suggest you use that somehow
<Burgundavia> you have some odd formatting in "Use It, Improve It, and Pass It on."
<nixternal> ok
<Burgundavia> drop the extra caps
<nixternal> roger that
<Burgundavia> Kubuntu is available to everyone, no matter the location, the status of your bank account, or the
<Burgundavia> speed of your Internet.
<Burgundavia>  <-- I like this
<Burgundavia> however, the sentence after is weak
<Burgundavia> I would add "your language or ability level" to the preceding
<Burgundavia>                       With versions available for x86 (typical personal computers), PowerPC
<Burgundavia> (Mac G3, G4, G5, as well as iBooks and PowerBooks), and 64-bit PC (new top of the line 64-bit
<Burgundavia> personal computers), 
<Burgundavia> drop that and say "No matter what kind of computer,"
<Burgundavia> no need to capitalize FREE CDs
<Burgundavia> move the next para into the first one
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi
<Burgundavia> nixternal: those are first off impressions
<nixternal> thank you for that!!!
<nixternal> im working on the "your language or ability level" portion now
<nixternal> [22:38]  <Burgundavia> move the next para into the first one
<nixternal> you talking the 'humanity to others' one?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> we should lead with why we are different, not end
<nixternal> true
<Burgundavia> our philosophy and how that flows through the distro and community is it
<Madpilot> which doc are you talking about?
<nixternal> http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/docs/aKademy_blurb.pdf
<nixternal> a blurb for kubuntu and the aKademey program/pamphlet
<Burgundavia> nixternal: are you sure you cannot provide a pdf?
<nixternal> Riddell just told me a text file
<Burgundavia> hmm, that truly sucks
<nixternal> but your idea would be bad though
<nixternal> i want to do it
<nixternal> not bad meaning bad, but bad meaning kick @$$ ;)
<Madpilot> nixternal, I'd loose the blue 'kubuntu' logotype, except in the header. it disrupts reading, IMO
<nixternal> Madpilot: don't pay any attention to the formatting
<Madpilot> heh. OK
<nixternal> i was messing around when i did that..just the wording..because it will be sent in a text format more then likely
<nixternal> i.e.,    Like the meaning of Kubuntu, "towards humanity", Kubuntu will help you in moving towards freedom.      <- does that sound as bad as it looks?
<Madpilot> it sounds a bit pretentious, if that's what you meant
<nixternal> i need to incorporate the meaning of Kubuntu in the first paragraph somehow
<crimsun> how about excising some of that and just using, "...Kubuntu will free you"?
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> free your mind, the rest will follow
<nixternal> uh oh
<crimsun> well, that's the seed of it, no?
* nixternal breaks out into some michael jackson
<crimsun> en vogue, dude.
<nixternal> oh it is crimsun
<nixternal> gahahahaha
<nixternal> omg the fact you knew that is just wrong
<crimsun> of course, I'm old enough to know better. :-)
* nixternal tries to picture en vogue and ponies
<nixternal> im 32, and can't remember that stuff ;)
<Burgundavia> ok, gladiator is delightfully bad already
<Madpilot> the pseudo-historical Roman movie?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> the roman legion is shown as a mob in fancy uniforms
<Madpilot> ya, I saw that ages ago, just after it was out on video. Can't remember much, beyond the rather silly battle scene at the start, in the forest
<LaserJock> mhz: still around?
<mhz> yeah
<mhz> LaserJock: yup
* mhz was working on his 1st try for an edubuntu-light
<LaserJock> mhz: the packaging guide was only fully translated into Swedish and Korean last I looked
<LaserJock> mhz: what you see is what we got
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:irc.freenode.net] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format: http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<rob> ?
* osg 's brain hurts.
<nixternal> haha
<jsgotangco> geez freenode
<nixternal> ya, ummm..someone say something about moving ;)
<jsgotangco> well this doesnt happen a lot so its not really so bad
<nixternal> i know..just being a smar @$$ on that one
<mhz> netsplit
<Madpilot> that was more than just a common netsplit - I haven't been able to connect to Freenode for a while...
<nixternal> i was telling someone who is a fan of another server...that IRC is IRC...i have had nothing but a great experience here...i get the typical lagouts and the occasional netsplit
<nixternal> other then that..this is good enough for me ;)
<mhz> Madpilot: yeah, no one has been able
<jsgotangco> heh i used to be in undernet for the longest time
<Madpilot> fun
<nixternal> ya Madpilot, it was telling me "NO YOU CANNOT CONNECT YET IDIOT - DENIED"
<nixternal> but i didn't listen..i kept trying
<jsgotangco> who else is in jabber here?
<Madpilot> me
* nixternal does
<jsgotangco> what's your id?
<Madpilot> via gmail - blurdesign@gmail.com
<crimsun> I'm registered, but I rarely use it. I don't think I even have a client installed. ;-)
<Madpilot> crimsun, Gaim does Jabber
<nixternal> nixternal at gmail dot com       &        nixternal at jabber dot kubuntu dot de
<jsgotangco> i think kopete does jabber
<crimsun> Madpilot: yeah, I removed tons from ubuntu-desktop :-)
<nixternal> kopete, gaim, and psi
<nixternal> and bitlbee?
<crimsun> I preferred gajim
<nixternal> gajim is the gnome one yes
<nixternal> couldn't remember the name
<crimsun> my jabber id is on my LP page
<nixternal> i use kopete, even though it disconnects something every 10 minutes
<nixternal> lol, mine too
* jsgotangco adds
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, what's your Jabber ID?
<Madpilot> nevermind :)
<crimsun> wow, massive breakage because of locales in Edgy.
<jsgotangco> my network doesnt even work in edgy
<troy_s> well that's good jsgotangco, you won't need to attend any of those network detox programmes
<jsgotangco> lol
<Madpilot> gah, no bot in #ubuntu... I can barely function :)
<crimsun> hmm, Gossip is nice. Just how I like it, slim and functional.
<Madpilot> Jabber client?
<crimsun> yep.
<nixternal> jsgotangco deleted me ;(
<jsgotangco> huh?
<nixternal> i couldn't add ya to my kopete, it said you denied me and deleted me
<nixternal> lol
<jsgotangco> doh!
<jsgotangco> let me add you
<jsgotangco> what's yours
<nixternal> nixternal@jabber.kubuntu.de and/or nixternal@gmail.com
<nixternal> jeesh, everybody at once ;)
<nixternal> i gotta reload skype some day..wonder how many messages i have in it
<jsgotangco> i hate that crap
<jsgotangco> i boot up skype i get past messages on every pc i have it installed
<nixternal> i do to...but my x and daughter use it
<jsgotangco> yeah my wife does too
<jsgotangco> uses it all night
<jsgotangco> so i bought her a skype phone
<nixternal> i bought a skype phone..worked for about 2 days and quit
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18408     <- Burgundavia  Madpilot   jsgotangco    and anyone else....proof read & brutal honesty / constructive criticism
<jsgotangco> Kubuntu would not be possible - "is" because its still an ongoing project but im not a native english speaker so...
<nixternal> good point
<nixternal> fixed locally
<jsgotangco> generally its ok
<nixternal> hmm
<nixternal> Kubuntu is not possible?
<nixternal> Kubuntu is not possible without the support of the community.
<nixternal> ok...it flows
<nixternal> i brainfarted for a second
<jsgotangco> heh my mind is a bit numb ive been listening to thrash metal since morning
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> imbrandon got me hooked on a group he knows locally... element 80...they have good stuff...not quite thrash, but i like the sound
<jsgotangco> my mind wont start without a morning dose of blood, guts, death and violence in music
<jsgotangco> while eating homemade apple pie lol
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> thats good stuff
<crimsun> I fall asleep listening to thrash
<nixternal> i fall asleep listening to crickets chirping
<jsgotangco> heh i had the chance to rip my cds last weekend
<Madpilot> nixternal, in that first paragraph, switch the last three lines w/ the first three
<Madpilot> so it starts with "Kubuntu, an official partner project..."
<nixternal> Kubuntu, an official partner project..... moves up above ....  Community driven, free in all...
<Madpilot> otherwise it's a bit vague as to what the heck you're actally talking about :)
<Madpilot> yes
<nixternal> i kind of liked the 'community driven, free in all senses....globally available...." those were flashy...but switching it, takes it from flashy blah, to flashy pro
<Madpilot> always start with *what* you're talking about, then tell us how cool it is and why we want it :)
<nixternal> switching it takes it from telling you what it's to about to what is.....and flip flopping it..so now you get what it is, then what it's about....
<nixternal> good call Madpilot
<nixternal> your bro had a killer idea with this as well..and i am going to do it...aKademy can have this, but im making a kubuntu flyer to go with my cd's to hand out at Ubuntu Chicago's next event
<nixternal> i think it is about ready to go...spell check it, read it one more time, and get it to Riddell
<nixternal> is it CDs, CD's, or Cd's
<Madpilot> you have lots of CDs, and the CD's contents include cool free software
<crimsun> CDs
<Madpilot> </grammar lesson> ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<crimsun> actually it would be CDs' above ;-)
<nixternal> CD's is posessive...i got that ;)
<crimsun> plural poss.
<nixternal> well mine was singular, you had the plural poss ;)
<jsgotangco> geeezz you native english speakers ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<crimsun> can you refresh the URL, nixternal?
* nixternal speaks Chicago Ebonics
<jsgotangco> just wait when a true blue english man wakes up
<nixternal> i refreshed it...
<nixternal> or refresh it with the new stuff you mean?
<crimsun> the latter.
<crimsun> right, "What is Kubuntu?" would be my first question.
<Burgundavia> nixternal: still too many words, from first flush
<dsas> nixternal: second to last paragraph reads "shipip"
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18410
<nixternal> fixedt hat dsas ;)
<nixternal> this has to fill an A5 formatted page
<nixternal> at a minimum
<crimsun> Kubuntu, an official partner project of Ubuntu, is a user-friendly operatin
<Madpilot> how big is A5?
<crimsun> err, sorry.
<nixternal> like 5.5x8.5
<nixternal> somewhere around that size
<Madpilot> ah, half A4, so ~half-letter - right
<nixternal> i guess it would be ;)
<jsgotangco> put it on size 15 boldface typeset
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Madpilot> nixternal, "fill" doesn't have to mean "stuffed edge to edge to edge with text" - whitespace is a good thing
<nixternal> oh i know
<nixternal> i would rather start with a lot then slim down, then start with nothing, and then try to fill the white space
<crimsun> Kubuntu is a free, user-friendly operating system based on the K Desktop Environment. With a biannual release cycle, it is the secure, stable computing environment you have been awaiting. Its community-driven development and pervasive availability is grounded in the concept of *humanity to others*.
<Madpilot> s/awaiting/waiting for.
<Madpilot> awaiting seems too formal
<nixternal> ooooh....i like it
<crimsun> sure
<crimsun> Kubuntu is available to everyone regardless of location, bank account status, Internet connectivity, native language, or technological know-how, with versions available for nearly all modern computers. You can even order free CDs through the ShipIt program.
<crimsun> s/with versions available/with versions/
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18411
<nixternal> refresh
<LaserJock> nice, I'm back
<nixternal> wb!!!
<crimsun> line 12 should be "its"
<LaserJock> that was some netsplit
<crimsun> I would also use "diverse" in place of "immense"
<nixternal> fixed
<crimsun> in fact, I think line 11 reads more smoothly as "Kubuntu is not possible without its users, because"
<nixternal> fixed
<crimsun> try to avoid brow-beating "community"
<nixternal> ok
<Madpilot> LaserJock, it was some larger server issue, not just a netsplit
<Madpilot> LaserJock, you on Jabber?
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> ya..we have been jabbercizing just in case it happens again
<LaserJock> ah cool
* nixternal is nixternal@gmail.com and/or nixternal@jabber.kubuntu.de
<jsgotangco> nixternal: do you listen to Ministry?
<nixternal> only if im around my cousin
<nixternal> im classic rocker
<nixternal> 60's, 70's, and 80's
<nixternal> late 60's at that
<Madpilot> nixternal, Rolling Stones?
<crimsun> line 13: "community consisting of individuals and teams alike working on different aspects, giving advice and technical support, and helping to..."
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<nixternal> of course
<nixternal> beatles are about as old as i really go
<Madpilot> LaserJock, on Jabber I'm blurdesign@gmail.com - you?
<nixternal> stones, zep, floyd, the dead, and such
<LaserJock> laserjock@jabber.org
<Madpilot> ya, just got the buddy notification
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: what's your jabber
<nixternal> me too
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> jsgotangco@jabber.com
<LaserJock> I'm adding people as fast as I can ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> go go go
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: remove the s
<jsgotangco> nixternal: i have a good number of Ministry CDs, most of the songs are highly critacal of both Bush presidents
<nixternal> crimsun: Kubuntu is not possible without its users, because all of its projects are designed, created, and implemented by a diverse community of users.
* nixternal happens to like bush #1
<crimsun> nixternal: +1
<nixternal> ty crimsun
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: you get a authorization thingy from me?
<jsgotangco> nope let me add you instead
<jsgotangco> what's yours
<LaserJock> laserjock@jabber.org
<nixternal> the 2nd sentance in that paragraphs =>     The community, consisting of individuals and teams, work on different aspects of the distribution, giving advice and technical support, and helping to promote Kubuntu to a global audience.
<crimsun> s/The community, consisting of i/I/
<crimsun> s/teams,/teams/
<crimsun> personally, avoid using "distribution"
<nixternal> k
<nixternal> you recommending a capitalization of individuals
<crimsun> well yes, since you eliminate "The community, consisting of i"
<crimsun> that is, if you want to separate it from the previous sentence.
<nixternal> ahh...ok
<LaserJock> wahooo, I've got 8 people in jabber now ;-)
<Madpilot> that's two more than I have :)
<Madpilot> are there any Ubuntu 'rooms' on Jabber?
<jsgotangco> jabber has rooms?
<nixternal> s/work on different aspects of the distribution/work on various aspects of Kubuntu/   <- i don't like this part at all
<crimsun> nixternal: you could always enumerate a few of said aspects
<nixternal> i was thinking the saem
<nixternal> like programming/coding, packaging..the 2 biggies
<LaserJock> you can do group chats with jabber but I dont' know how you know what to join
<crimsun> artwork, documentation, technical support, and promoting Kubuntu to a wider audience
<LaserJock> lol, I started a group chat
<nixternal> Individuals and teams are what provide the artwork, documentation, technical support, as well as the promoting of Kubuntu to a wider audience.
<crimsun> s/are what//
<nixternal> ya LaserJock, it is called IRC :)
<LaserJock> #ubuntu-elite@jabber.org password is rockstars ;-)
<nixternal> gotcha
<nixternal> hahaha
<LaserJock> I don't know if it works
<crimsun> "Individuals and teams provide the artwork, documentation, and technical support and promote Kubuntu to a wider audience."
<Burgundavia> #inkscape has a jabber<-->irc bridge
<nixternal> are they using bitlbee to do it?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> hmm, gladiator was good, stupid fun. Can't be rome though, not enough nudity
<nixternal> you could use bitlbee to get the jabber messages, and then use a bot that would link the local bitlbee with the actual #inkscape channel
<Madpilot> that's probably how they do it, then
<Madpilot> it's a bit odd being in the "same" room in both IRC & Jabber at the same time ;)
<LaserJock> Madpilot: how are you doing that?
<Madpilot> join #inkscape here on Freenode, and the inkscape Jabber chatroom via Gaim
<Madpilot> no point usually, I was just messing around w/ Jabber
<LaserJock> I just wondered if there were Ubuntu rooms
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18412
<nixternal> updated..could this be it?
<nixternal> please be, so i can email it and goto bed ;)
<crimsun> that's going to have to be /huge/ font
<crimsun> cos that's like 1/10th of a page.
<nixternal> 1/10th of an A5 sized page?
<crimsun> oh, A5
<crimsun> lines 13-14 are awkward
<crimsun> well, mainly line 14
<Madpilot> LaserJock, I've no idea if there are Ubuntu rooms - that's why I was asking :)
<crimsun> "and technical support in addition to promoting Kubuntu to a wider audience."
<nixternal> it is the /as well as the/ part that is awkward
<crimsun> OR
<nixternal> ya
<crimsun> "and technical support and promote Kubuntu to a wider audience."
<nixternal> <crimsun> "and technical support in addition to promoting Kubuntu to a wider audience."
<nixternal> i like that one i think
<crimsun> go with it
<crimsun> third paragraph is definitely awkward
<nixternal> the whole free thing i agree
<nixternal> i refuse to use richard stallma's "free as in beer"
<nixternal> stallman's as well
<crimsun> "Kubuntu is Free Software, and giving you the rights to improve it and pass it on to friends and strangers alike distinguishes it from commercial computing environments.
<crimsun> "
<nixternal> Kubuntu is FOSS, Free and Open Source Software....
<nixternal> haha, i was heading in that direction
<nixternal> actually..i wasn't going anywhere close to that..i kinda like that
<crimsun> line 22 should end with "versions"
<crimsun> line 23 should have a capitalised "You"
<mdke> good morning
<nixternal> fixed
<crimsun> I'd also rework lines 26-27
<LaserJock> mdke: oh man, that means it's late here :-)
<Madpilot> morning mdke 
<nixternal> i like that last line...it sums everything up into one quick selling sentence
<crimsun> repetition is powerful: Something like "Kubuntu - the easy to use, global community-driven, free operating environment for everyone!"
<nixternal> the /that is Kubuntu!/ can go
<crimsun> err
<crimsun> s/operating/computing/
<nixternal> yah
<crimsun> you know one thing you /haven't/ mentioned is the support length
<nixternal> heh..good point
<LaserJock> ah cool, I found an ubuntu jabber room
<LaserJock> ubuntu@conference.jabber.org
<nixternal> #ubuntu
<nixternal> i think that is hobbsee's channel actually..we used it during the freenode attacks a few weeks back
<mdke> #?&$! @ http://www.buntudot.org/howtos/
<crimsun> matthew LOVES howtos.
<crimsun> this place needs more cowbell and howtos.
* mdke loves howtos and unofficial websites
<nixternal> hmmm...maybe this isn't the time to state that i am a contributor to that site ;)
<nixternal> oh well..to late ;)
<nixternal> i don't do the how-to's though..just the news
<Madpilot> why isn't that content on help.u.c/community, nixternal?
* mdke shakes his head in disbelief
<nixternal> i can guarantee that content probably came off the wiki somewhere
<nixternal> i haven't even looked at it truthfully
<nixternal> ya, that is all on the wiki, and/or linked to someone else
<mdke> everything on that site should be somewhere else, not just the howtos... the news should be on the fridge, the docs should be on the wiki, the blogs should be on planet
<nixternal> you realise only "We" read the fridge?  and that only occurs to check meeting schedules and look at ponies..as the content hasn't been updated in god knows when
<nixternal> s/in/since
<mdke> nixternal: right, so you're saying the fridge needs improving. But you went and developed a new website?
<Madpilot> nixternal, then volunteer to help maintain the Fridge :)
<nixternal> i didn't develop anything
<mdke> the fridge is looking for editors
<nixternal> and they already have people getting ready to "help maintain" the fridge
<mdke> exactle
<Burgundavia> nixternal: maintain the fridge is mostly create/find content
<Burgundavia> you can never have enough of those
<nixternal> as long as you have akregator or the like, you don't have to find much, it comes to you ;)
<mdke> right now all I can see that site (and things like ubuntux.org) adding is a few google adds making money for the owners
<nixternal> ya, and those probably don't work
<mdke> ubuntux.org is quite a lot worse though
<LaserJock> I think buntudot.org is somewhat filling a void though
<LaserJock> it might be nice to see an "offical" type place for it though
<nixternal> buntudot.org is ALL community related news...in an un-official environment
<crimsun> not to interrupt, but can we get that A5 out, please?
<nixternal> hehe
<crimsun> I would like to get a bit of shut-eye before my 7 AM conf call.
<nixternal> you want to see a refresh?
<mdke> nixternal: that is exactly what fridge is intended to be
<crimsun> nixternal: yes, please
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18415
<LaserJock> mdke: but isn't
<nixternal> bingo
<Burgundavia> to be fair, I have never seen a really public annoucement asking for help on the fridge
<Burgundavia> plus there is this "fear of asking for/using official resources"
<LaserJock> exactly
<mdke> Burgundavia: it should be the other way around.
<crimsun> "Kubuntu is not possible without its users, because its projects are designed, created, and implemented by..."
<crimsun> nixternal: ^
<LaserJock> we have planet. fridge. help. etc. but nothing that pulls them together
<nixternal> the fridge is pretty much everything official..buntudot is getting all kinds of ubuntu news that wouldn't make it on the fridge...plus i bet 75% of the people you poll in #kubuntu or #ubuntu will go "wtf is the fridge" or "that is where i keep my beer"
<mdke> someone who wants to setup a rival website should come along and say "can I help improve the fridge?"
<Burgundavia> uhhh
<Burgundavia> if they don't even know it exists...
<mdke> sure, if they don't know it exists, that's another matter
<crimsun> nixternal: let's hammer out a bit about the >= 18-month support
<mdke> but these do
<nixternal> up top with that crimsun?
<crimsun> nixternal: in the second paragraph for the previous suggestion
<Burgundavia> mdke: letting people know it exists and letting people you know you need help are the same message
<LaserJock> andreas's survey indicated that fridge was not seen as an important resource to most people
<mdke> Burgundavia: yeah, I agree.
<LaserJock> I think it's because it isn't utilized at this time
<mdke> LaserJock: it clearly isn't. But it should be
<Burgundavia> the fridge has not been updated in a month and half
<LaserJock> mdke: oh, I agree
<mdke> right, so efforts to change the situation would be a good thing
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> but it isn't easy to do that, for most people
<mdke> as far as I can see, the people who run that buntudot thingy are well integrated in the community, they can easily help out
<LaserJock> it's "easier" to run their own stuff
<crimsun> LaserJock: / mdke: why not lament (nicely) the lack of response for Ubuncon, for instance?
<LaserJock> grrrr
* nixternal states that i had offered previously to help out with the fridge prior to UDS
<LaserJock> mdke: but there has never been an annoucement or anything about fridge. People generally don't help out if the don't think they can
<LaserJock> gotta run, sorry guys
<nixternal> i was told they had it under control
<mdke> cya
<nixternal> later LaserJock
<Burgundavia> the fridge was also long delayed
<Burgundavia> that effectively killed it with in the community
<mdke> I have to say, the idea of the "fridge" is a pretty bad one, I think. What does a fridge have to do with anything
<nixternal> Kubuntu, featuring more then 18 months worth of support, is not possible....
<nixternal> ^^ crimsun
<Burgundavia> funny that the distro that did releasing correctly (come out of stealth mode with a full distro) screwed that minor part up so badly
<nixternal> that worth crap
<mdke> but the worst part has been that it hasn't been well run
<nixternal> i don't like it
<crimsun> nixternal: err, I don't see it?
<nixternal> [02:18]  <nixternal> Kubuntu, featuring more then 18 months worth of support, is not possible....
<mdke> Burgundavia: yeah.
<crimsun> nixternal: oh, not in the pastebin yet?
<nixternal> no..
<mdke> It'd be nice to see a proper community website, well run, maybe merging planet into it, including more news items
<nixternal> like kde dot com
<nixternal> news.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> dot kde is also pretty boring, tbh
<nixternal> something like that
<nixternal> it is very boring
<Burgundavia> planet gnome often has more of interest on it
<crimsun> nixternal: hmm, I think you could integrate it into the first paragraph pretty easily
<nixternal> put it in with the biannual release cycle line
<crimsun> yep
<nixternal> With more then 18 months of """ support and a biannual release cycle
<nixternal> 18 months of continued support
<nixternal> no duh
<crimsun> "With a biannual release cycle, each having at least 18 months of support, it is the secure, stable computing..."
<nixternal> ahh..we will do 10 months now..take a break and give you 10 more...im an e.tard
<nixternal> booyah crimsun
<Burgundavia> mdke: I think the single problem is that jdub is in charge on the fridge. He is simply too busy to be doing something that like
<crimsun> that pretty much covers all major points imo
<Burgundavia> plus robitaille and whiprush are not any less busy
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18417
<nixternal> i could easily contribute to the fridge with news type stuff..i get all kinds of news on blackberrys, cell phones, satellite, akregator
<nixternal> but in order for it to be official, it can't be some super small link tucked down on the right hand side of the community page
<nixternal> and work ^^
<crimsun> nixternal: looks much better imo
<nixternal> i agree crimsun...now that was team work there
<nixternal> the only thing that is mine is the top 3 lines ;)
<nixternal> LOL
<nixternal> you guys got the rest ;)
<crimsun> err
<crimsun> sec
<crimsun> once-over for grammatical stuff :-)
<nixternal> oh ya..im doing that again and again
<crimsun> "Its community-driven development and pervasive availability /are/ grounded..."
<nixternal> fixed
<crimsun> and in line 14: "...provide the artwork, documentation, and technical assistance in addition to promoting..."
<nixternal> fixed
<nixternal> that last line did work out too..especially for consistency like you said
<crimsun> ok, passed my tests
<crimsun> probably want a couple others to look at it
<nixternal> well now it is up to Riddell..he is the last person to approve it
<nixternal> i will pastebin it for everyone to read
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18418
<Burgundavia> anyway, I need to crash
<Burgundavia> night all
<nixternal> Burgundavia   Madpilot     and whoever else ^^
<nixternal> nite Burgundavia
<crimsun> yep, looks fine to me.
<crimsun> the more eyes the better
<nixternal> ya, especially since mine are closing
<nixternal> how is the weather out there btw crimsun?
<nixternal> are you close to the coast?  i can't remember
<crimsun> today it stunk, mostly
<crimsun> I'm 3 1/2 hours east of the Atlantic Ocean
<crimsun> (by car)
<crimsun> argh
<nixternal> you mean west
<crimsun> west
<nixternal> lol
<crimsun> yeah, I'm fairly directionally impaired
<nixternal> you are a linux god, but can't tell east from west..that is scarry
<crimsun> there are no linux gods
<nixternal> guru ;)
<crimsun> nah :-)
<crimsun> anyhow, gotta once-over these presentations, so I'm away for a bit
<nixternal> there is no way you can deny that..i have yet to see you get stuck on anything
<nixternal> im gonna pass out...thanks crimsun for the help, it will be noted!!!
<Madpilot> nixternal, much better
<nixternal> good deal
<Madpilot> need to crash myself - night, all
<nixternal> everyone helped on that
<nixternal> g'nite
<mdke> Burgwork: yes, absolutely
* Riddell pokes Burgwork with sticks
<mdke> Riddell: he'll be asleep at this time, can we help?
<Riddell> mdke: sure, grab a stick and poke :)
<mdke> Riddell: alrighty
<manicka> evening all, when is the next docteam meeting?
<mdke> manicka: friday at 19UTC we're having a special meeting focused on plans for edgy
<manicka> ok, sounds good, I'll try to come and see what the future holds :)
<mdke> cool
<manicka> I'm looking for a new direction at the moment
<mdke> manicka: what sort of direction?
<manicka> something to get my teeth into with ubuntu. i assume you've heard what happened at the forums this week
<jsgotangco> what happened?
<mdke> manicka: no, I didn't hear
<mdke> url?
<manicka> sorry stepped out
<manicka> basically the staff self imploded and half have left
<jsgotangco> wow
<manicka> 7 in all
<jsgotangco> so who is left aside from ryan?
<manicka> well everyone has already been replaced
<manicka> the people no longer there
<jsgotangco> what caused it?
<manicka> are Kassetra, mstlyevil, bored2k, fleixius, teroedni, myself and KingBahamut
<manicka> Kassetra and mstyevil were sacked, the next four left in anger and KingBahamut resigned in shame
<jsgotangco> im familiar with the nicks and their contribs
<manicka> and that's pretty much all i want to say about it
<manicka> it's been a long week
<mdke> gosh
<mdke> manicka: did you approach the CC with your concerns about the sacked moderators?
<mdke> I had no idea that had happened at all
<manicka> apparently Ubuntu-Geek has already notified the CC and spun a story, I'm not sure about any other representations
<manicka> to be honest I'm glad to be away from it all
<manicka> forum life is draining
<mdke> I spoke to Jane some time ago, she mentioned that they are talking to the forums about setting up a forum council which can have a transparent process for moderator appointments and which can go to the CC to resolve any problems
<mdke> I think that sounds very positive
<mdke> its definitely a shame if moderators are sacked without a transparent process for discussion
<manicka> maybe. i don't really care anymore
<mdke> :(
<manicka> the two sackings were without any explanation except a 'trust we've done the right thing' message
<mdke> that's definitely bad.
<manicka> yeah
<manicka> there was a vague statement about inappropriate behaviour and that was it
<mdke> that's where the CC can help out
<manicka> people who dug a little further are no longer there
<manicka> maybe they can in the future under the new plan
<manicka> but not on this occasion
<mdke> well, chin up, these things tend to get resolved with time. I hope you won't be discouraged from contributing further to Ubuntu!
<manicka> no no, just need to refocus
<manicka> I no longer contribute in anyway to the udsf.. my biggest fallout was with KB
<mdke> :(
<mdke> since we spoke last I saw some of your and Naaman's ideas on the wiki team pages, and implemented them
<mdke> for example, I rewrote the WikiGuide page and the post on the forum about how to contribute. I'd love it if you had a look and gave some feedback
<mdke> we've also got some ideas underway about how to improve quality assurance on the wiki, check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
<manicka> ok, I'll have a look :)
<nixternal> [05:39]  <mdke> manicka: friday at 19UTC we're having a special meeting focused on plans for edgy     <--- at that time in #ubuntu-meeting the marketing team will be having a meeting
<mdke> nixternal: yeah, I read on our mailing list
<nixternal> ok..just wanted to make sure there wasn't going to be an overlap
<jjesse_> btw nixternal good job on that page it was nice to see it in the the announcment on knot 1
<jjesse_> cheer
<nixternal> thanks...ya i woke up to that one and was suprised myself
<nixternal> i dont' know why i wasnt' expexting that release info today, but i really wasn't
<jsgotangco> wazzupp
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> gee i had too much mangoes
<nixternal> lol
<jjesse_> hello jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> i feel a bit itchy
<jjesse_> allergic to mangos?
<jsgotangco> no that's a natural effect of mangoes
<jsgotangco> well the local mangoes here though if you have too much of it
<jsgotangco> i had dried ones last night then i ate some fresh ones a few hours ago
* iGama is now away, auto-away after 20 minutes (log\on pager\on)
<LaserJock> anybody know of a good way to do a calendar on the wiki?
<nixternal> i was trying the other day LaserJock
<nixternal> i was reading somewhere on moinmoin about calendars...something about either a macro or a parser
<LaserJock> or a good way to do a collaborative calendar period
<nixternal> let me see if i can find it
<nixternal> google.com
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> they have the calendar
<nixternal> you can make it a public calendar, and you can subscribe to it and what not
<LaserJock> I wonder if the LP calendar is any good
<nixternal> whoa
<jjesse_> whoa what?
<nixternal> LaserJock: https://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/AyudaSobreMacros/MonthCalendar
<nixternal> its in spanish so ;)
<LaserJock> hmm
<iGama> just use babelfish.altavista.com to translate that :p
<LaserJock> but we wouldn't  have that on wiki.u.c would we?
<nixternal> LaserJock: https://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnMacros/MonthCalendar
<nixternal> booyah
<iGama> lol
<nixternal> all depends if they installed it or not
<LaserJock> how would we know?
<LaserJock> I'm guessing not
<nixternal> you can test it in the sandbox ;)
<jjesse_> hmm can't get to that page
<LaserJock> http rather than https
<jjesse_> ah that's really cool
<nixternal> heck ya it is
<nixternal> and when you click on a day, it will create a new page for that day so you can put stuff there
<nixternal> i wouldn't recommend it as a journal, as there would be thousands of pages in no time ;)
<crimsun> nixternal: so what happened w/ the A5?
<LaserJock> nixternal: it worked on wiki.u.c?
<nixternal> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MacroMarket/EvenCalendar
<nixternal> that one is even better i think
<nixternal> i haven't tried it
<nixternal> crimsun: i sent it to Riddell, so i don't know what happened after that ;)
<nixternal> i created a 'beta flyer' from the info though http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/docs/
<iGama> nixternal nice
<nixternal> i need to learn inkscape so i can use it instead for stuff like that...OOo works fine with it, but exporting it to a PDF is bad, very bad
<nixternal> thx iGama
* iGama is away, auto-away after 20 minutes (14m 36s ago)
<iGama> im thinking of doing the same for my univesity, when the freshman start
<nixternal> iGama: stop that autoway ;)
<iGama> im sorry lol
<iGama> this should be hiden...
<nixternal> hehe
* iGama is back after 15m 9s
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> nixternal: you aren't using Scribus?
<nixternal> i use it LaserJock, but i need to learn it better as well
<nixternal> i get frustrated when it is "simple" sometimes ;)
<nixternal> s/is/isn't
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't think wiki.u.c has it, I just pasted it and did a preview and it doesn't show up
<nixternal> with macros you have to save
<nixternal> preview doesn't show macros
<nixternal> ahh..thats bs..because you can see ToC's and what not, but you can't see like @SIG@ until you save
<nixternal> anywho, lunchtime!!!
<nixternal> bbiaf
<LaserJock> hmm, I saved it and it still didn't work
<Burgwork> mdke, Riddell uhh?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: uh what?
<LaserJock> or is it totally none of my business :-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I believe Riddell was commenting on my comment last night about KDE dropping the "the free desktop" part
<LaserJock> ah
<iGama> i have a present :)
<iGama> karpa.ath.cx/penguin.pdf
<iGama> :p
<iGama> for those of you how need a break :)
<mdke> Burgwork: no idea what it was about
* iGama is now away, auto-away after 20 minutes (log\on pager\on)
<LaserJock> hmm, it seems ubuntu-doc-commits is a little behind
<LaserJock> last I see is r 3176
<LaserJock> and we are at r 3180
<nixternal> hiya guys and gals
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-21
* Riddell tries to remember why he was poking Burgwork 
<Riddell> oh yes, he was dissing kde dot news
<Burgwork> Riddell, I was talking with nixternal_ about the akademy webpage talking about kde being "the free desktop"
<Burgwork> oh, and yes, I was saying that kde dot news was boring
<Burgwork> so is planet kde, tbh
<Burgwork> no screenshots, no new stsuff
<Riddell> I find footnotes, planet gnome and planet debian boring, but that's because I'm not part of those communities and don't really care about most of the people or news
<Riddell> we try not to put too many application announcements on dot news, there's kde-apps.org for that
<Burgwork> at least pgo has screenshots on new stuff
<jjesse> i find Riddell boring :)  (oh wait that was out loud :P )
<jjesse> just kidding of course
<Burgwork> Riddell, please change "shaping the future of the free desktop" to something less offensive
<Burgwork> on http://conference2006.kde.org/
<Burgwork> maybe "shaping the future of KDE"
<jjesse> why we all know kde is the future of the free desktop :)
<Burgwork> jjesse, no, actually, we don't
<jjesse> sorry i'm a little fiesty this evening
<Burgwork> you will note that gnome has dropped "the leading free desktop" from their press releases
<crimsun> I don't think it's at all offensive.
<crimsun> I think using KDE would be more politically correct, yes, but shouldn't they be free to call it whatever they want within reason?
<Burgwork> are they talking about gnome, xfce and fluxbox, etc. at this meeting?
<Burgwork> then they are not shaping THE free desktop, they are shaping A free desktop
<Riddell> Burgwork: I'll pass on your request to the marketing group
<Burgwork> Riddell, cheers, thanks
* Riddell notes that planet kde has screenshots for kalzium, ellen's UI thingy and videos of digikam
<Burgwork> building common ground is important
<LaserJock> ohhhh, kalzium :-)
<crimsun> I'm quite sure GNOME will surface at some point in some discussion, yes.
<LaserJock> hmm, anybody know of a place that has how many people use the various desktops? Like real data, not a forum poll?
<crimsun> surely you know as a scientist that any "real data" is statistically insignificant and utter straw rubbish.
<Burgwork> LaserJock, nobody has good information on that
<Burgwork> in fact, nobody has really good information on numbers of Linux users
<Burgwork> even Ubuntu
<LaserJock> crimsun: sure, but I need something to use when I fight with raphink ;-)
<Burgwork> you can look at things like popcon and the number of ips hitting an ntp server
<jjesse> LaserJock: just say everfyone uses windows :)
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I suppose, I sure hate the lack of data in FLOSS
<Burgwork> debian popcon shows kde and gnome are just about equal, in terms of installations
<LaserJock> that's something at least
<Burgwork> although there is no single variable for "user is running X desktop'
<crimsun> why are you "fighting" raphink anyway? :-)
<LaserJock> crimsun: oh we battle over the future of KDE and Gnome all the time
<jsgotangco> its a battle lost at the beginning because XFCE shall rule them all
<jsgotangco> lol
* jsgotangco hides
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> well I don't use any of them much
<crimsun> there are 356 merges, and the two of your are arguing? mmkay. :-)
<crimsun> of you ^
* jsgotangco starts work
<LaserJock> heh, waiting for pbuilders to get done ;-)
<LaserJock> although it really isn't fighting since we agree with each other most of the time
<LaserJock> but we definately disagree about how many people are using what
<LaserJock> but it's just my little thing
<Burgwork> gnome has had some long debates about how to get good numbers
<Burgwork> basically, the answer is "you don't"
<LaserJock> I suppose
<LaserJock> I think the lack of data in FLOSS makes it really hard to try to analyze things, IMO. Things just devolve into opinon swapping
<LaserJock> but maybe that's the scientist in me
<LaserJock> raphink and I are mostly interested in user/developer ratios
<crimsun> I'll use the analogy that Richard Feynman used. After his involvement in the Manhattan Project, he was despondent and wanted to tell everyone about the utter futility of things. Later he realised that numbers ultimately don't matter.
<crimsun> how would you count those of us who are users and developers?
<LaserJock> well, I'm assuming that that's one of the reasons there isn't data ;-)
<LaserJock> it's hard to nail down what you mean
<crimsun> ok, example. I've contributed code to various projects, but I don't necessarily use all of them. What am I?
<LaserJock> "other" ;-)
<crimsun> which doesn't fit neatly, which goes back to Burgwork's statement
<LaserJock> sure, I totally understand the problem
<LaserJock> I just don't like it :-)
<LaserJock> annnyway, I don't want to start wars today since I already mentioned  vim in #emacs today
<LaserJock> I just don't quite get why people are so focused on DEs. Do users really care that much?
<crimsun> no, not really. That's why Ubuntu rocketed in popularity.
<crimsun> That's why the community screams over any little thing.
<nixternal_> mmm mmm that was mighty fine pizza
<jsgotangco> nice!
<jjesse> that was wierd, my laptop just turned off
<nixternal> what is weird about a laptop turning off?
<nixternal> what is weird is when they get up and steal your last beer out of the fridge
<LaserJock> that would be odd, I don't have any beer in my fridge
<nixternal> ya, me either
<nixternal> so it would be weird ;)
<LaserJock> I've got a bud light somewhere in the pantry that was a present for my wife's 21st birthday
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> does beer go bad?
<jjesse> have a full wine rack 
<jjesse> yes beer goes bad
<jjesse> it gets skuny
<jjesse> skunnky
<LaserJock> hmm, cause that bottle's been in our pantry for 6 years now
<nixternal> heh, all those issues with skunky, yet he is a docker ;)
<nixternal> tell me if "Ubuntu Center has changed it's name" is news worthy, or if someone is trying to get free publicity    http://icenterx.info/index.php
<nixternal> i have never heard of it
<nixternal> oh ya, he isn't making the UWN...loaded with ADS
* nixternal erases it from the 'proposals'
<Burgundavia> never heard of it
<nixternal> someone trying to get their site pimped on the UWN..guess what, im not pimpin' it...sorry ;)
<LaserJock> what the heck is it?
<nixternal> it is a way for that guy to make money is what it is..a useless site full of ads
<LaserJock> ok, so it went from Ubuntu Center to iCenterX to Hive ?
<nixternal> i guess
<nixternal> and it went from being on the 'proposed news' list to the trash bin as well
<LaserJock> in like a month?
<nixternal> cuz i deleted it
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> you ok there bud?
<jjesse_> me?
<jjesse_> yeah
<nixternal> don't know if you are comin' or goin'
<jjesse_> don't know myself
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> jjesse_: i haven't received and email back from mgalvin concerning the template, and since it seems the page i created got pimped in the Edgy Knot-1 Release statement, I think I am going to just follow the one I created
<jjesse_> nixternal that sounds like a good oplan to me :)
<nixternal> im working on the UWN now
<nixternal> i might actually have this ready for release tonight, but will wait until either midnight tomorrow or saturday morning
<dsas> isn't icenterx some forums project - a "web front end to your ubuntu system" or something?
<nixternal> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1990777,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000616
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue7    <-- it needs more...edubuntu and xubuntu info, and some meeting info yet....help!!!
<jsgotangco> nixternal: will handle the other parts later (since its already friday here)
<jsgotangco> nixternal: ive been planning to write up stuff friday night/saturday morning
<nixternal> there are just a few small ones..oh ya, you can pimp edubuntu ;)
<jsgotangco> its alright, we're sending that on sunday anyway
<nixternal> it is loaded with community news..so that is good..there is just some stuff lacking from Edubuntu and Xubuntu...a once over would be good for spelling and grammar
<jsgotangco> we can grok on it later if you're free
<jsgotangco> when i come home
<jsgotangco> and you start your day
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i am always free
<nixternal> it is going on 11pm here...and im actually really tired for some reason
<jsgotangco> cool im not doing anything tonight so ill be able to do stuff on that, boss is flying to NY later so the next 2 weeks would be interesting
<bimberi> too much pizza!
<nixternal> ya, the pizza exhausted me
<nixternal> gino's pizza
<nixternal> gino's east to be exact
<jsgotangco> nixternal: its just that my day job also involves writing whitepapers for our product offering so i get tired of writing sometimes heh
<nixternal> oh i know the feeling
<nixternal> im gonna go have me some ice cream..i shall return shortly
<nixternal> maybe that will wake me up a little ;)
<bimberi> LaserJock: http://ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net/index.php
<LaserJock> bimberi: hmm, interesting
<bimberi> LaserJock: yes indeed
<jsgotangco> not bad
<jsgotangco> if hwdb was mandatory, we'd have all the data we need =)
<jsgotangco> especially with installations
<nixternal> i already signed up...that is HedgeMage that made that page right?
<bimberi> no, elkbuntu
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> derrr
<nixternal> and i so posted that in marketing earlier too didn't i
<jsgotangco> s('_^)-b
<nixternal> wth is that?
<nixternal> that is one ooogly face
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> ~~~~~~^0^~~~~~~~~
<nixternal> i think im gonna grab the lappy, and go lay in bed with some tv...lay back and chill while i do some more work
<jsgotangco> nixternal: does ubuntu chicago have a website?
* nixternal grabs the lappy and heads for upstairs...see ya in a few minutes
<nixternal> not yet jsgotangco
<nixternal> im trying hard though
<jsgotangco> trying hard for what?
<nixternal> chi.ubuntu-us.com  is what i have a support ticket in for on launchpad
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<nixternal> it was supposed to be done earlier this week, so i asked for an update 2 days ago...im still waiting..but they are going through some changes, so im not going to pester them quite yet
<nixternal> i got my mailing list finally
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if I could get LJ.ubuntu-us.com? :-)
<nixternal> heh
<LaserJock> I'm my own LoCo team
<LaserJock> loco team anyway
<nixternal> scarry, but i believe it for some reason ;)
<nixternal> hahah
<jsgotangco> boooo
<nixternal> LoCo != loco ;)
<nixternal> loco == LaserJock
<LaserJock> hehe
<mpt_> How many hours until the docteam meeting?
<nixternal> huh
<LaserJock> well Utah and Colorado won't have me I don't think
<nixternal> docteam meeting?
* nixternal checks email
<LaserJock> mpt_: it's 19:00
<LaserJock> UTC
<jsgotangco> ugghhhh
<nixternal> tomorrow?
<LaserJock> yeah, Friday
<nixternal> hmm..in here i take it?
* jsgotangco hates those dawn meetings
<nixternal> because #ubuntu-meeting is full at that time
<Plug> (It will be Saturday for mpt and myself, assuming he is also in NZST still)
<jsgotangco> 19UTC is 3am for me
<LaserJock> yikes
<bimberi> <-- 5am
<jsgotangco> 5am is ok
<nixternal> hmm...i think jsgotangco should be at a docteam meeting, so i think someone needs to look at the schedule posted for you guys
* nixternal is a lonely docteam wanna be ;)
<nixternal> haha
<jsgotangco> nixternal: its alright, the meeting can go with or without me anyways like before
<bimberi> jsgotangco: yeah it is actually - the house is quiet :)
<LaserJock> it was already discussed on the ML
<LaserJock> and we have the wiki schedule still, I think
<nixternal> 0400 & 2200 are the winners for time
<nixternal> 0400 = 11pm for me..which is good...and 2200 = 5pm which is good
<mpt_> That's why I asked for the number of hours rather than the time :-P
<bimberi> 14
<LaserJock> mpt_: yeah, but I can't do math that well
<bimberi> 7am?
<mpt_> probably
* mpt_ wishes Google Calculator would do timezone conversions
<nixternal> heh, mdke says it "it can be in another channel"
<nixternal> you guys should have spoke up when he asked if the times were good ;)
<LaserJock> it was probably in the middle of the night for them
<LaserJock> it *was* good for all the people present ;-)
<nixternal> you know..netscape used to have a killer calendar app back in the day.
<bimberi> he probably asked at 19UTC ;)
<mpt_> 1997 to 1999, yes
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> that was it
* mpt_ was just reading about Netcaster a few days ago :-)
<mpt_> so I came across the literature about Collabra
<jsgotangco> im just skipping this meeting and read the logs
<jsgotangco> did you use collabra
<nixternal> wth is going on with my launchpad karma...it keeps going up and up...i wish my bank account was like that
<Laser_away> :( mine goes down and down
<nixternal> heh
<Laser_away> I need to do some en_US translations
<Laser_away> ;-)
<nixternal> it is because people have subscribed me to specs
<nixternal> grrr
<nixternal> alright..i will bbiaf..gonna head on up with my lappy and a cup a tea
<jsgotangco> wow what happened to the karma in LP it just exploded
<bimberi> wow
<jsgotangco> i wished that translated to $US
<RichJ> well hello there
<RichJ> come on..i have only been gone for 5 minutes and you all are gone already
<bimberi> we've all gone shopping with out Launchpad karma
<RichJ> haha
<bimberi> *our
* RichJ kicks nixternal in the shin
<RichJ> all this computer time is making me fat
<jsgotangco> dont remind me about that
<RichJ> haha
<RichJ> you know..i was thinking
<jsgotangco> i once had a dream of me expecting an email
<RichJ> the fridge and the uwn
<jsgotangco> and i was sitting in front of my pc
<RichJ> haha
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<mpt_> jsgotangco, no I didn't
<RichJ> you know, last night i had a dream that i had a mass email that had to be sent out for Knot 1 release and i fell asleep before i could do it
<RichJ> i woke up this morning thinking people were going to be pissed at me
<jsgotangco> now thats really bad
<RichJ> hehe
* mdke looks at scrollback and give up
<Burgundavia> hey mdke
<mdke> heya
<mdke> Burgundavia: how's life?
<Burgundavia> this week, shitty
<mdke> :(
<Madpilot> bimberi, nice re-use of my letter to LP Ubuntu Wiki hopefuls who haven't actually done any work yet
<mdke> that's a very well phrased letter, we should write it down somewhere
<bimberi> Madpilot: thanks
<bimberi> and mdke
<Madpilot> given that I threw it together in about two minutes, I'm glad it works :)
<bimberi> Madpilot: excellent job.  i struggle to create sometimes but i taking your words really helped (i did restructure a little)
<bimberi> s/i //
<bimberi> btw Alejandro replied, agreed with the email and was not at all discouraged
<mdke> great
<Madpilot> excellent
<kbrooks> This is slightly offtopic, but this slightly relates to the documentation as well: how do i modify a pre-existing package?
<dsas> kbrooks: Does https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-updating.html help at all?
<kbrooks> thanks
<kbrooks> why isn't debian/rules binary suggested in the packaging guide for if you don't want to do yet another installation/chroot of ubuntu?
<dsas> kbrooks: I don't know what that means. Laserjock did nearly all the work on the packaging guide, it might be best to ping him directly about it.
<dsas> kbrooks: The packaging guide does suggest using pbuilder instead of managing your own chroots though, I don't know if the two are related.
<kbrooks> "Using pbuilder as a package builder allows you to build the package from within a chroot environment. You can build binary packages without using 	pbuilder, but you must have all the build dependencies installed on your system first. 
<kbrooks> dsas: pbuilder creates a chroot... :-)
<kbrooks> dsas: that really isnt managing your own chroot. pbuilder creates it for you and essentially manages it for you, when you tell it to (and how)
<dsas> kbrooks: ahh ok, I don't really know much, my attempts at packaging have nearly always failed.
<kbrooks> dsas: sucks 
<jrib> kbrooks: I apt-get source, make changes, change version to indicate it is my own, dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc, and then install the deb.  For personal use that should work ok
<mdke> kbrooks: #ubuntu-motu should be able to help further
<kbrooks> :-) 
* mdke wonders why thunderbird is using 100% cpu
<dsas> mdke:  I think there's a bug filed about that
<dsas> mdke: bug 53439
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 53439 in mozilla-thunderbird "Thunderbird full cpu" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53439
<mdke> dsas: thanks
<jjesse> #/join kubuntu-devel
<jenda> spam 
<bhuvan> just to confirm, docteam meeting is going to occur in next 2:45hrs?
<nixternal> yes sir!!!
<nixternal> im guessing in here, as #ubuntu-meeting will not be available at that time
<bhuvan> ok
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<LaserJock> theCore: ping?
<pygi> mdke: you have a sec?
<pygi> Burgwork: poke? 
<LaserJock> do you need something pygi?
<mpt> Where's the meeting?
<LaserJock> here
<mpt> ok
<LaserJock> supposed to be anyway
<mpt> grrr it's cold
<pygi> LaserJock: yes, when is the meeting? :P
<pygi> right now?
<LaserJock> I think so
<bhuvan> it's the time!
<trappist> great timing for me
<bhuvan> i assume, meeting doesnt happen anywhere else
<trappist> I think #ubuntu-meeting is busy
<LaserJock> it should be here since marketing is doing a meeting now
<bhuvan> yep
<mdke> hello
* mdke is a bit pressed for time
<LaserJock> ah, phew
<mdke> in here, I'd say
<LaserJock> ok, lets goooo!
<bhuvan> so now, shall we start ? who are all here?
* LaserJock is here
* bhuvan is Bhuvaneswaran A
* trappist present
<mpt> me
<mdke> me
<mdke> pygi: yes
<LaserJock> ack, no jjesse
* nixternal is Rich Johnson ;)
* pygi is nobody important :)
<mdke> ok so we should really figure out where we are going with docs for Edgy. It seems to me that Kubuntu is well placed, so I'd like to focus on Ubuntu if poss.
<bhuvan> for edgy, do we have plans for new documents?
<LaserJock> new docs seemed like Switching from Windows and Security Guide
<mdke> we need to think about the whole structure of how to present the help system... that will affect how we think about "new docs"
<LaserJock> ah, true
<bhuvan> ok
<LaserJock> it would be nice to push presentation more this release, rather than just a scramble for new content
<mpt> I would really really like to see something that, on screen, looks like a single help system
<mdke> i agree...
<mdke> I had proposed something quite radical, but I'm not sure whether we have enough time to pursue it or not, maybe it is better viewed as a long term goal. what do people think?
<mpt> However that happens to be organized underneath
<trappist> I don't think I'm familiar with the proposal
<trappist> haven't been keeping up with the list
<LaserJock> mdke: I agree, time is really quite short for edgy
<mdke> I've been thinking about a sort of compromise
<bhuvan> trappist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/HelpfulHelpVersionMinusOne
<LaserJock> mdke: and we don't really have a good implementation plan yet
<mdke> what mpt says is spot on: instead of present different guides, we need to present a single help system
<trappist> bhuvan: thanks
<mdke> I think we can do that with a few very simple things
<bhuvan> like?
<mdke> first, eliminate any overlap between (for example) the server guide and desktop guide
<mdke> so, for example, have a separate article about Installing/Removing/Upgrading which applies to the whole help system
<nixternal> something like SuSe's Slab with the various types of "Help" options would be nice
<mdke> I think a completely rehashed system based on content may be beyond us a bit for Edgy
<nixternal> more then likely, but could be planned for edgy+1
<mdke> yes. I'm hoping that in the general future the help system and the wiki can start to look more and more similar
<bhuvan> mdke: let us not postpond. let us give it a try. imo, as we are more inclined to reorganise existing material, i dont see more work but just a plan is required
<mpt> There are some things we can do in three months, even if others take six
<mdke> the problem is that if we try for a complete rehash, and don't have time, we will end up with nothing
<mdke> mpt: right
<mpt> Things like a cohesive front page
<LaserJock> ok, so how would this change HTML and lulu.com stuff?
<mpt> and ensuring each section is short
<bhuvan> mpt: ok
<LaserJock> are we going to focus on how the shipped docs are presented
<mdke> I'd like to, yes
<mdke> I think we can move ahead by continuing to work on the desktop and server guide, but bearing in mind those things that mpt mentioned, and maybe eliminating some overlap between them
<bhuvan> so, to begin with, shall we prepare a list of overlapping documents
<bhuvan> s/documents/sections
<mdke> if the security/switching from windows things develop, they will be good too, but shouldn't overlap with the existing material
<mpt> If publishing the UDG as a book is an important goal, maybe it can be forked from the on-screen docs and updated in parallel
<trappist> security will overlap with server until it's ready to go, but only in places where server stuff probably should be moved to security
<mdke> trappist: right, things can move in either direction
<LaserJock> mpt: it's not so much of having a "book" but just having print copies available
<mdke> I think maintaining two things separately won't be easy
<bhuvan> mdke: true
<LaserJock> ok, so I guess one thing I'm missing is how are the docs presented technologically
<LaserJock> what do we need to tweak? and can we do it in Gnome as well as KDE?
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya did i miss the mtg?
<nixternal> you are just in time
<mdke> LaserJock: I don't really think a lot needs tweaking, much can be done towards the end technologically speaking
<mdke> we could continue to work on the UDG as it is now, bearing in mind good help principles
<LaserJock> mdke: so the changes are mostly within the docs themselves? I'm just a little sketchy on what actually needs to be changed
<mdke> then at the end, tidy things up
<crimsun> if your goal is eliminating multiple "codebases" for the sake of presentations, then you will have to invest considerable time in the [separation of]  content
<jjesse> can someone catch me up real quick?
<bhuvan> LaserJock: may be we can add new sections in the guide
<mdke> jjesse: should be in the log
<mdke> jjesse: we're talking about Gnome only though
<jjesse> ok
<mpt> jjesse, basically talking about how to present a single help system instead of something that looks like a set of separate and sometimes-overlapping "guides"
<jjesse> wouldn't we want to do the same sort of thing for kubuntu if it was possible?
<mpt> sure
<mdke> jjesse: it isn't possible, in my opinion
<mpt> really?
* mpt hasn't seen the KDE help system
<mdke> we don't have anyone who knows anything about how the kde help system works
<jjesse> khelpcenter?
<mdke> maybe it can be a long term plan... but afaics, all the docs are presented as guides one under the other
<trappist> as a kde guy I can probably find the motivation to learn it
<nixternal> khelpcenter is pretty straight forward...a little sloppy however
* mdke needs to go to dinner
<nixternal> but then again, i know developers have been interested in getting something like "Slab" implemented..at least that is the buzz on the mailing list
<mdke> keep going though, I'll catch up later
<nixternal> using something like that would allow us to create a single help system
<mpt> How would that work, nixternal?
<nixternal> right now slab is like "Control Panel" and then some...
<mpt> Though, if Edgy's UI was going to be based on Slab, wouldn't it have been approved at Paris?
<nixternal> oh, well i doubt it will be in edgy
<LaserJock> ok, so as far as revamping the help system presentation, what are specific things we can do on the edgy time frame?
<nixternal> i was off on the edgy+1 tangent...let me get back on topic here ;)  sorry
<mpt> What license(s) are the book extracts under?
<LaserJock> GFDL I think
<jjesse> the official ubuntu book?
<mpt> yes
<jjesse> common share one
<jjesse> cc + sa is that what its called/
<LaserJock> ah, yeah
<jjesse> ?
<mpt> So if we merge them into existing help, the existing help becomes CC-only
<jjesse> don't have it in fron of me
<mpt> which makes it incompatible with upstream Gnome help, gnarrrgh
<jjesse> mpt: if i recall they are licensed under the smae license that the ubuntu docs are under
<LaserJock> GFDL/CC-BY-SA
<mpt> GFDL + BY-SA
<jjesse> i can't get to my kubuntu machine right now which has them
<mpt> ok
<jjesse> but i'm 99% sure they are licensed udner the same as the docs are
<mpt> well, if it's the same license
<mpt> One thing we can do is merge the stuff from the book into the main help
<mpt> that should be fairly easy
<jjesse> mpt: that was the goal
<LaserJock> ok, so we have:
<jjesse> i know if the book sells well there are thoughts about keeping it up to date or something like that
<LaserJock> 1) find and eliminate duplicate sections in existing guides
<LaserJock> 2) merge content from Offical Ubuntu Book
<bhuvan> 3) include new sections in existing guides (if we have)
<mpt> Another thing which is mostly organizational, not writing, is making sure each section is targeted at answering a specific question or explaining a specific topic
<jjesse> the only new guide that has been proposed is the switching from windows to *ubuntu which we have a group working on 
<trappist> and the security guide
* jjesse wasn't aware of the security guide
<trappist> that's just me so far, and I haven't been very noisy about it
<mpt> In the new-writing area, the biggest holes seem to be (a) how to connect to the Internet, (b) how to switch from Windows, and (c) how to print stuff
<pygi> trappist, jjesse: and the Edubuntu Handbook which will go into docteam svn from this release
<jjesse> the how to switch from windows will be taken care of
<mpt> cool
<jjesse> oooo good news pygi
<bhuvan> trappist: can we merge it with server guide?
<LaserJock> ok, what about grabing wiki content for the docs?
<mpt> I asked on ubuntu-doc@ if all help.ubuntu.com was public domain yet
<mpt> but didn't get a reply
<trappist> bhuvan: it's not going to be server-specific.  much of it will also apply to desktops.
<mpt> Anyone know?
<jjesse> trappist: will it deal w/ security for the server ad aslo desktops
<jjesse> i thought it was
<trappist> yes
<LaserJock> mpt: not all, since the docs are not
<bhuvan> trappist: point
<mpt> LaserJock, good point, I should have said help.ubuntu.com/community :-)
<LaserJock> mpt: help.ubuntu.com/community is going to be PDish but I'm not sure if that is finalized yet
<mpt> ok, I'll nag mdke about that some more
<trappist> is a customized help browser part of the idea of a unified help system?
<LaserJock> last I heard (which was some time ago) he was waiting on the CC to do a final approval or something
<mpt> trappist, I doubt it unless you have it already implemented and it's better than yelp :-)
<LaserJock> well, but tweaking yelp should be possible, no?
<trappist> heh no, I just have this grandiose idea in the back of my head that can deal with kde/gnome/ubuntu docs and search forums and the wiki on the side
<bhuvan> ok, it's 1am here. i'm going to sleep. go ahead, i'll go through the logs
<mpt> yelp upstream are doing a pretty good job of improving it
<bhuvan> good night all
<mpt> the search will be much better than it is in Dapper, for example
<LaserJock> cya bhuvan 
<mpt> I'll also make a wiki page about how to structure an on-screen help page (about 4 paragraphs), and announce it on the mailing list
<mpt> Then I'll start updating the UDG to match :-)
<jjesse> mpt: if possible i think the kdg shoud match as much as possible
<mpt> jjesse and ... I forget his name, you're writing the switching-to-windows stuff?
<LaserJock> yeah, it's perhaps the non-doc person in my, but I'm have a hard time "seeing" what we are trying to do
<jjesse> nixternal and philbull
<nixternal> hello
<mpt> philbull, right
* nixternal is in 2 meetings right now
<nixternal> ;)
<mpt> ok
<trappist> switching *to* windows?! was that a typo?
<nixternal> ya
<mpt> arg
<nixternal> hahahah
<jjesse> switchin grom windows
<mpt> You got me, I'm a secret Microsoft agent
<nixternal> Switching From Windows!!!
<mpt> Anyone want to volunteer to write more detailed help about how to connect to the Internet?
<jjesse> it would need to be added to the desktop guide 
<mpt> yes
<jjesse> for both kdg and udg
<pygi> what can be hard in connecting to internet? you mean configuring adsl, stuff?
<LaserJock> not me, I just plug in the cable and it works
<jjesse> configuring dsl, dealing w/ modems
<LaserJock> winmodems?
<jjesse> i guess i dont know
<trappist> the more that's covered the better, I think - not being able to connect from Linux is a dealbreaker for a lot of new users
<pygi> LaserJock: winmodems are a pain :-/
<mpt> pygi, connecting with dial-up, connecting with wireless, connecting using a cable modem, sharing an Internet connection with another Ubuntu machine, sharing a connection with a Windows machine
<pygi> mpt: when would such a thing need to be done?
<jjesse> edgy
<mpt> pygi, as soon as possible :-)
<pygi> mpt: ok, sorry then :P
<mpt> but yes, preferably by Edgy
* mpt drops a pin and listens
<LaserJock> it might help us out a bit if we started using specs more  to chart this stuff
<jjesse> +1  laserjock
<jjesse> we should be using launchpad
<LaserJock> well, we have a LP product so I guess we could do specs on there
<mdke> back
<mpt> our fearless leader returns!
<LaserJock> \o/
<mdke> we have wiki pages for these issues, we just need to use em
<LaserJock> mdke: but LP might be easier for tracking status etc, no?
<jjesse> when was that wiki page last updated?
<mpt> mdke, tell us about the public domain wiki issue
<mdke> mpt: it was going well, but some people, including some important ones, complained and it went back into not-sure land.
<mdke> it has been dormant for a while because I haven't nagged the CC aside from sending the occasional email that didn't get answered
<mdke> the main problem is really that people don't like the idea that their material can be copied and put under a non-free licence
<mdke> LaserJock: status of? bugs?
<LaserJock> I think https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+specs might be a good place to start specing things out
<LaserJock> mdke: progress
<mdke> well, we have a bug about implementing stuff about modems and so on
<mdke> it isn't actually much work to take the material from the wiki, assuming it works
<mdke> I don't think a spec is needed for that specifically, although for other stuff, it might be useful. I don't think we should spec absolutely everything, because it will take ages :)
<LaserJock> yeah
<mpt> Yes, it's easy to get caught up in virtual paperwork
<LaserJock> but we have *no* specs on there so it seems like it's a tool that isn't being utilized
<mpt> (especially in Launchpad)
<mdke> LaserJock: hey, I registered one for the wiki quality assurance thing >_< and we used it for BetterWikiDocs and WikiLicensing
<LaserJock> the ubuntu specs yeah
<LaserJock> I'm  talking about the ubuntu-doc product
<mdke> we can use it for major projects sure...
<mdke> ok, so let's try and draw some strings together
<mdke> mpt is going to do some things about style and approach
<mpt> yep
<mdke> shall we say that we will move forward with the current documents and try and make as consistent a yelp front page as possible for now?
<mdke> maybe eliminate overlaps and improve consistency of approach between desktop and server guides
<mdke> and see how we go?
<nixternal> jjesse: "Switching From Windows" when I start creating content, should I just email you the files so they can get uploaded to svn?
<jjesse> nixternal: sure for now until we get you an account, now that you are a ubuntu member :0
<nixternal> woohoo!! ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: I guess, meanwhile we should be working on detailing what we want the help system to look like in the future
<mdke> LaserJock: sure
<nixternal> now i just need docteam member, then i could retire and die a happy man
<mdke> eventually, I'd like it to look the same as the wiki. But that may be a few releases ahead if it could work
<LaserJock> really?
* LaserJock trusts you guys
<mpt> the wiki can afford to have a wordier front page, because a browser window is usually larger than a yelp one
<mdke> right, but in essense I don't see any reason why they should be different
<LaserJock> do you mean they should be consistent
<mdke> the wiki gets the contribution, and if the quality assurance works, it can be filtered into the help system
<nixternal> mdke: that would be nice to have something like that w/o a doubt
<nixternal> the qa is going to be a fairly large scale project though, imho
<mpt> licensing and Qa, two fun topics
<mdke> nixternal: sure, but it works for wikipedia :)
<nixternal> no doubt
<mdke> it can work for us too
<mdke> upstream is planning a radical shakeup with the help system in the next couple of releases to allow modular help, that will help.
<nixternal> very true mdke, but also wikipedia has paid admins that do nothing but verify all day long ;)
* jjesse ponders if he needs to start following upstream kubuntu help
<mdke> right, it will never be on the same scale
<mdke> but the principle works
<mpt> I wouldn't want Wikipedia-style stuff being frozen in amber for a LTS release, that would be scary
<mdke> mpt: it would be reviewed by us and filtered into the help system. I think it will work.
<mpt> yes
<mdke> anyhow, that's in the future
<mdke> shall we move onto other matters now?
<LaserJock> what is our current, new member proccesing like? is it still difficult?
<lloydinho> crud. Did I just get here an hour late?
<LaserJock> lloydinho: yes
<LaserJock> but we are still going
<mdke> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> mdke: anything we can do on our end other than whine and complain?
<mdke> LaserJock: it hasn't really been a problem tbh... I've got well used to bugging the admins about stuff
<jjesse> i don't know if we still have the requirement of being a ubuntu member for access to svn upload
<lloydinho_> gah.
<crimsun> mdke: which admins do you have to bug, elmo and/or znarl?
<mdke> crimsun: right
<mdke> I have a good bugging relationship with them
<jjesse> but i don't know know if anyone follows this besdies nixternal and i but ther is now a kubuntu community council that requries approval to become a kubuntu member so i would like to propose that a person could have svn commit rights if they contribute and are a ubuntu or kubuntu member
<crimsun> is there any LP infrastructure (the equivalent of soyuz) in place to facilitate said processing -- or is any planned?
<mdke> crimsun: no, it doesn't do svn access control
<LaserJock> jjesse: they are the same
<nixternal> kubuntu member == ubuntu member now, yes
<LaserJock> ubuntu memeber = kubuntu member = edubuntu member
<mdke> jjesse: that's the current system
<jjesse> LaserJock: i didn't realize they were now the ssame
<mdke> we assess contributions from people and if they can write well and know docbook/svn, we grant them access
<nixternal> i didn't see the edubuntu part, but cool none the less..and i promise to start helping that out as well
<LaserJock> jjesse: they always were
<jjesse> well things are a little different i thought w/ the kubuntu council and the abitlity to be a member of the kubuntu team
<mpt> LP code management is all about bzr
<jjesse> and we don't want to move to bzr 
<crimsun> mdke: how about approving them for a team that has svn write access?
<mdke> crimsun: I don't follow... 
<LaserJock> ideally ubuntu-doc should be that
<mdke> right, we try and make ubuntu-doc be the same as the people who have commit access
<crimsun> mdke: I understand the current system, but the ideal is to be able to have it automated once you guys/gals feel the applicants are ready. Yes.
<pygi> nixternal: howcome you didnt? we wrote cookbook ages ago :P
<mdke> crimsun: right, but launchpad doesn't do that
<nixternal> i apologize..i have been trying to get it incorporated with a couple of projects here..and have 20 machines running it now in an underprivildged day care right now
<crimsun> mdke: I understand that. :-)  The second part of my question was whether there are [you knew of]  plans to develop that integration.
<mdke> crimsun: ah, sorry. Don't think so.
<mdke> mpt will know more
<mdke> jjesse: kubuntu is well organised now for edgy, right?
<LaserJock> well, I think that we'd probably want to move to bzr to use LP like that
<jjesse> mdke: yeah just need to start updating the release notes etc
<jjesse> i haven't spoken w/ robotgeek to see if he wanted to do the desktop guide updates again, but we should a good grup
<mdke> good. So we should update the projects page after this evenings discussion. mpt do you want to be put down for the desktop guide as a maintainer?
<mdke> have we any news on Edubuntu/Xubuntu projects for edgy? Any sign of Edubuntu working with the docteam?
<LaserJock> yes
<pygi> mdke: there are signs, I am here :)
<mpt> mdke, sure
<LaserJock> pygi and HedgeMage  are here
<jjesse> i heard edubuntu is moving into svn?
<mdke> mpt: great.
<pygi> jjesse: we are trying :)
<mdke> LaserJock: splendid
<LaserJock> mdke: I'll like to get Edubuntu docs going more
<HedgeMage> I'm here
<mdke> pygi: do you need help with converting the wiki into docbook? there are good tools now
<mdke> it can be directly converted to valid docbook
<pygi> mdke: if that means less manual work, sure :P
<HedgeMage> mdke: someone posted a dockbook-ized version of the old wiki stuff to the mailing list :)
<LaserJock> mdke: a question that has come up at the last doc team meeting was what content can go on help.ubuntu.com
<HedgeMage> mdke: so I already have it :)
<mdke> HedgeMage: has the wiki changed since then
<mdke> ?
<pygi> mdke: nop
<HedgeMage> mdke: not really, all we did was add some info about SVN and the new handbook
<mdke> ok, great. THat was Sean who posted that
<pygi> that old cookbook content wont change probably
<mdke> so I'm sure it was good stuff :)
<HedgeMage> I just need to get around to slicing it up into useful chunks... probably this weekend.
<mdke> cool. so we can expect a massive patch? ;)
<HedgeMage> We have a Handbook meeting in an hour or so if anyone is interested
<jjesse> does anyone know if doc-commits mailing list is behind?  i heard it was?
<pygi> mdke: perhaps if we can get a commit access :)
<pygi> or you could commit it :P
<mdke> pygi: we prefer to see patches first, and we will check and commit
<HedgeMage> mdke: Yep, once I get it sliced up and redone to match our new organization.  Hopefully at least a couple more Handbook people will get SVN access eventually.
<mdke> once we are confident it's all valid docbook and you know what you're doing with that, we'll arrange access
<LaserJock> jerome and I have offered to sponsor patches until they get access
<mdke> good
<mdke> nice
* pygi thanks to LaserJock and mdke :)
<mdke> LaserJock: what was the question?
<pygi> and jerome :P
<HedgeMage> :)
<LaserJock> mdke: well, Edubuntu has a few docs on the website and they were wondering if they could be placed on help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> yeah, that would be good
<LaserJock> do we have a policy for what can be on help.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> for the wiki, or the static section?
<LaserJock> static
<mdke> can you post the links to the mailing list and we can check em out with a bit more care
<LaserJock> ok
<mdke> I don't see a problem
<LaserJock> I just didn't know so I told them I'd ask
<mdke> cool
<mdke> no one has heard anything about Xubuntu I guess?
<mdke> well, we can ask around. Any other business?
<crimsun> I'll ask Gauvain and Jani reading docs.
<jjesse> is anyone doing knot cds for ubuntu?
<mdke> ah good point, you mean the reviews?
<jjesse> i know nixternal has volunteered for kubuntu (and everyone should have seen it in the announcement)
<LaserJock> oh, that reminds me. How is the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter (is that the right name)?
<jjesse> i mean like mgalvin did for flights
<mdke> I updated the testing page today because it still pointed at Dapper... I just added a link to the release, I haven't seen any reviews
<mdke> maybe mgalvin can tell us more
<nixternal> i volunteer for anything i can do to help...Ubuntu has provided a lot for me, and it is only one way for me to contribute back to the community ;)
<mdke> nixternal: feel free to check out the dapper ones and do what you can for the knot releases. Mgalvin will almost certainly help
<jjesse> mdke: he has the kubuntu one that is rocking
<jjesse> especially for knot 1
<mdke> yeah
<nixternal> mgalvin i believe is afk...so far the kubuntu knot is the ONLY knot testing page otu there
<mdke> nixternal: that's ok, it doesn't have to be done for EVERY release. It wasn't for dapper
<mdke> see http://www.ubuntu.com/testing
<nixternal> that is where i got my layout on the wiki from
<mdke> right
<mdke> splendid. Any other other business?
<jjesse> none from me
* nixternal is getting this docbook stuff down, and can help when needed
* mhz hides because he still does not work via docbook
<LaserJock> how's the style guide?
<LaserJock> I looked through it on doc.ubuntu.com the other day
<mdke> lots of gaps in that. We should add lots of the things mpt has been discussing on the mailing list and some information about which docbook tags to use for stuff
<LaserJock> well, for the Packaging Guide I'm revamping quite a bit and hope to get lots of help. Much earlier review from  developers will be key for edgy
<LaserJock> jerome also mentioned that it mad a tiny blurb in the eweek Dapper review, which is cool
<LaserJock> s/mad/made/
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> it still seems out of place to me in the system documentation
<LaserJock> but maybe we can add some other material eventually to not make it so lonely ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> im working on some material for the SFW docs
<nixternal> and once the SFW is completed, i may go a little more advanced and in-depth if there are not objections of course
<mpt> "We were impressed to find included among the very good documentation that ships with Ubuntu a software packaging guide."
<LaserJock> I'm really interested in "How to contribute to Ubuntu" type docs
<LaserJock> I hope we can get the basics covered enough that eventually we can do more with it
<crimsun> docs are a bit impersonal for that, I think.
<crimsun> that's the whole point of our initial-mentor-phase
<nixternal> i agree, but at the same time, it wouldn't hurt for someone to read/find it after installing their new Kubuntu system for the first time ;)
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, sometimes you need a textbook to go along with the lecture ;-)
<HedgeMage> crimsun: Honestly, there are many people who I believe would be *more* likely to get involved if they could read some details and roll it around in their heads for a bit... it makes it more tangible for some folks.
<nixternal> the new guy/girl who just installed Kubuntu loves it, but doesn't scour the forums or the wiki, or evern the tabs on ubuntu.com...they see a section of "Helping Out" in the docs on their new system, it could possibly work
<lloydinho_> Hey, I'd like to help writing some "How to contribute" docs
<crimsun> how do we integrate http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate into it?
<crimsun> it already has a decent overview
<LaserJock> sure
<nixternal> true it does, but i can guarantee that not everyone with an ubuntu system has even paid attention to that page..however, what i am saying does sound like trying to force something at them, which we dont' want, because that is exactly what the evil empire does
<HedgeMage> nixternal: I think that depends on what tone it's written in.
<LaserJock> I don't know, I feel like the biggest problem that we face (doc writers) is not the content but getting people to the contenc
<LaserJock> we almost need a doc marketing team
<mpt> For example, http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/42575
<mpt> Nary a mention of the built-in help
<HedgeMage> If it's not written in an aggressive-salesperson tone, it could be more of an "inside look" sort of thing on what we do and how our volunteers help out.
<mdke> LaserJock: very true
<mdke> I'd like to see the help menu actually thought out for edgy
<lloydinho_> yes. the current five options aren't clear at all.
<LaserJock> and I'd never go to System Documentation
<LaserJock> I'd go Online Documentation or something else
<mdke> sadly I am not confident on convincing Mark. I will try though
<LaserJock> System sounds to sterile and techincaal for me
<crimsun> ok, this is going to sound very misplaced since this is the /doc team/, but you can't fight economies of scale. There are so many sites popping up that answer these questions. Not only do we need a centralised doc system, but we need to at least consider integrating these external systems.
<lloydinho_> how would you do that?
<crimsun> that's up for discussion at some point
<lloydinho_> I tried to contact a few of them to make them aware of the docteam effort, but they prefer to do their own thing.
<LaserJock> again, I think some of that is marketing
<lloydinho_> As long as they don't spread misinformation, I guess we
<lloydinho_> 'll have to accept it.
<mpt> That's why I suggested the one thing we can do in Edgy, which is suck in the book excerpts so that that menu item is no longer there
<HedgeMage> I tend to think that some heterogenity is good... different support venues will have different tones or atmosphere, and someone comfortable with one might not find another appealing
<LaserJock> mpt: well, I think that might be more a Mark issue than a doc team issue
<mdke> mpt: Mark was totally unmoveable
<mdke> like, totally
<crimsun> I completely concur that integrating the book excerpts would be quite nice.
* HedgeMage nods
<mpt> How often do the excerpts mention Dapper specifically? :-)
<LaserJock> we can integrat them, but I don't think we will neccesarily get rid of the Help item in doing so
<crimsun> mdke: the approach, then, would be to mobilise the community to overrule him, aka "baby jebus cries"
* mpt doesn't want to get out of bed to check
<lloydinho_> crimsun: I did this wiki page on contacting independent doc efforts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/IndependentDocEfforts 
<mdke> crimsun: I will blog about it, and see if people agree
<lloydinho_> I think that's about the best we can do at present.
<crimsun> mdke: awesome
<crimsun> lloydinho_: looking
<crimsun> lloydinho_: that's excellent. We should be updating that as we come across the more active Ubuntu-centric ones.
<lloydinho_> that was the plan, but I have neglected it somewhat since putting it up.
<LaserJock> well, I don't think you can ever get ride of "the unoffical Ubuntu guide" style stuff
<LaserJock> it seem more a counter-culture sort of thing
<lloydinho_> yes. And they like it that way.
<crimsun> then we shouldn't be trying to get rid of it. HedgeMage raises an extremely useful point.
<LaserJock> but it *is* a problem, IMO, when most users know about those sites and not the doc team work that is sitting on the users computer
<crimsun> anyhow, thanks for everyone's time.
<mdke> yes, cya all
<mdke> we'll follow up on the mailing list
<lloydinho_> yes, as I said, the best we can do it is track it - and perhaps ask all of these sites to refer to the help.ubuntu.com as well.
<lloydinho_> ... oh. Are we done?
<mdke> lloydinho_: keep chatting, but I think the meeting is done, yeah
<lloydinho_> cool. I can put these random thoughts of mine into a mail, instead.
<mpt> thanks mdke 
<LaserJock> yeah, thanks everybody! we had a long but productive meeting I think
<lloydinho_> sorry I was late for this. Let me know if I can help with anything.
<LaserJock> don't worry, we will! mwuahahaha
* HedgeMage takes a moment to plug the Edubuntu Handbook meeting that will start in #ubuntu-meeting in about 40 minutes.
<lloydinho_> *uh-oh*
<pygi> HedgeMage: I'll be sleeping :P
<nixternal> i will be there HedgeMage, without a doubt..i need to start working more with edubuntu!!!
<HedgeMage> nixternal: awesome :)
<nixternal> i will be there to follow along
<HedgeMage> pygi: oh, I suppose you're allowed to sleep :P
<pygi> nixternal: nice, feel free to jump in the discussion and contribution :)
<nixternal> pygi: you got lucky on that one, because you can sleep after the meeting ;)
<pygi> HedgeMage: really? wow, what I did to deserve this? :P
<pygi> nixternal: it's been a heavy day for me today really :P
<nixternal> hehe..understandable
<HedgeMage> pygi: I just enjoy picking on you.  It's among my favorite IRC-based sports :P
* pygi tickles HedgeMage
* HedgeMage looks for her anti-tickling spray while laughing hysterically
* HedgeMage soaks pygi with a whole can of the stuff
<pygi> nixternal: anyway, once you have good contributions feel free to apply for the membership and say that at the meeting :P
* pygi evades :P
<LaserJock> shesh, you guys need to take this back over to #edubuntu ;-)
<LaserJock> kids these days ;-)
<HedgeMage> hehe
<pygi> LaserJock: :P
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: just a kid at heart, does that count?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> and the channel noise is there to prove it :-)
<HedgeMage> :P
* pygi wonders why is LaserJock forcing us to go to #edubuntu :P
<LaserJock> because that is your usual sandbox
* LaserJock runs
* pygi decides to do a easter egg on Laserjock in Edubuntu Handbook :P
<LaserJock> lloydinho_: still around? I pm'd you
<lloydinho_> yes. And I answered! :-)
<LaserJock> lloydinho_: do you have a registered nick? I didn't get anything
<lloydinho_> that is strange.
<lloydinho_> I haven't registered this one with the underscore.
<lloydinho_> I have to figure out how to kill the zombie one without the underscore and rename my current login to that.
<lloydinho_> sorry, I'm still pretty hopeless at IRC.
<LaserJock> me too
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: do you know? ^^
* HedgeMage peeks in
<HedgeMage> lloydinho_: is the zombie registered?
<lloydinho_> yes.
<HedgeMage> then do : /msg nickserv ghost lloydinho password
<lloydinho_> okay. thanks!
<HedgeMage> (obviously use the pw instead of the word "password")
<HedgeMage> np :)
<LaserJock> excellent thanks HedgeMage 
<lloydinho> aha!
<lloydinho> LaserJock: I wrote you back on PM, anything?
<LaserJock> nope
<LaserJock> lloydinho: ok, do you do jabber?
<lloydinho> I haven't tried it..
<lloydinho> LaserJock: But it'll probably work better than this.. (strange)
<lloydinho> I'll just restart xchat and see if it helps.
<lloydinho_> LaserJock: I give up.
<LaserJock> hehe, oh well
<lloydinho_> hm.
<lloydinho_> I'll try the Jabber stuff, though.
<lloydinho_> lloydinho@jabber.org
<theCore> LaserJock: pong
<HedgeMage> lloydinho_: mind if I add you as well?
<lloydinho_> HedgeMage: no, go right ahead :-)
<HedgeMage> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-22
<nixternal> http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/images/mainwindow.png
<nixternal> i was thinking of something along the lines of ^^ for a one stop shop for help, docs, and the community
<Laser_away> nixternal: ohhhh, spiffy :-)
<nixternal> why thank you
<HedgeMage> :)
<nixternal> mdke: ping?
<Burgwork> nixternal, it is 1am there
<nixternal> ahhh, yes, so i am guessing him to be asleep
<nixternal> Burgwork: any idea where i can get the Ubuntu Plone theme?
<Burgwork> sorry, no idea
<nixternal> where is jsgotangco hiding??
<robotgeek> hmm, how did the meeting go? i had an absolutely horrible flight (12 hours travel!)
<nixternal> it was a pretty good meeting
<nixternal> ouch..where did you travel to and from?
<robotgeek> huntsville to Newark, NJ
<robotgeek> it was supposed to take only 5 hours :)
<nixternal> jeesh
<crimsun> that sucks.
<nixternal> that shouldnt even take 5 hours direct..that is a 2 to 2.5 hour flight
<crimsun> granted, I spent 19 hours for Baltimore, MD -> Charlotte, NC.
<nixternal> round trip would be 5 maybe
<nixternal> bwi is garbage
<robotgeek> connecting and stuff
<nixternal> so is dulles..actually all airports around dc are garbage..but i shall move back there one of these days..i miss the bay so bad
<crimsun> it wasn't even BWI, it was the tornados in Charlotte that prevented our flights from taking off
<robotgeek> i had to come into NY and get stucj in a traffic jam
<robotgeek> crimsun: where are you located at, if i may ask?
<nixternal> traffic jam in NY?
<nixternal> nahhh ;)
<robotgeek> the rain created so much trouble. 
<crimsun> robotgeek: I'm based out of Greensboro, NC, but I fly to Atlanta, GA, and Dallas, TX regularly
<robotgeek> crimsun: hmm, i am in Huntsville, Al
<robotgeek> i tht maybe we could meet up if we were close enough :
<crimsun> unfortunately Huntsville is a bit of a jog
<robotgeek> yeah, 10 hours of drive is a bit too much :)
<robotgeek> maybe we could meet in Altanta sometime, heh
<theCore> a new guide?
<theCore> trunk/ubuntu/switching/ ...
<theCore> but only one file with content
<theCore> and it's not valid
<theCore> actually there no content ... :(
<Burgundavia> theCore: hmm
<Burgundavia> it might all be invalidated if that soc students gets done
<theCore> Burgundavia: what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> there is a google summer of code student writing some code to do automatic migrations of data
<theCore> oh, so the guide wasn't about introducing Windows peoples to Linux?
<theCore> (said like that, I wonder we would need a such guide)
<theCore> we a the desktop guide for that :)
<theCore> s/a/have/
<theCore> just a question like that, where are revisions < 98?
<theCore> nevermind
<theCore> I found them
<theCore> they were just not logged
<Burgundavia> theCore: the guide also has bits about moving data over from windows
<theCore> Burgundavia: I deduced it
<Burgundavia> perfect, smart people are always good have aboard ;P
<theCore> :)
<theCore> the history log of the commits is quite interesting
<theCore> first commit: r1 | chris | 2004-11-10 10:57:39 -0500 (Wed, 10 Nov 2004) | 2 lines
<theCore> almost 2 years
<Burgundavia> ah, chris
<Burgundavia> most of the old doc team from the warty days is gone
<Burgundavia> I am only one
<theCore> sad...
<Burgundavia> life happens
* Madpilot hands Burgundavia the official "Strange Old Fart" badge of DocTeam
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> jerome is only two months behind me
<theCore> I started with Hoary, since then I been hooked :)
<theCore> Warty development must had been fun
<Burgundavia> most of warty development was done behind closed doors
<Burgundavia> it wasn't called ubuntu until that rc release
<Burgundavia> ok, I just realized I don't care about what the artwork team talks about on their mailig list
<Burgundavia> time to bin that one
<HedgeMage> lol
<theCore> Burgundavia: I should too
<theCore> Burgundavia: I kept this list simply because Mark was posting on it
<Burgundavia> bah, I have better things todo with my time
<theCore> *poof* ubuntu-art gone...
<Burgundavia> yep, open clipart is next
<Burgundavia> man, this feels great!
<HedgeMage> :)
<theCore> *poof* ubuntu-doc-commit gone...
<theCore> I got `svn log' instead
<Burgundavia> doc commit has been borked recently anyway
<Kamping_Kaiser> 2 questions - is there an ubuntu-doc package to check for bugs against? and i want to move a page into CatagoryCleanup and CatagoryDocumentation - can i do that after making the page?
<Burgundavia> yes and yes
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks
<Kamping_Kaiser> i noticed a missing space - should i send a diff to -doc for a 1 character change, or can someone here fix it?
<Burgundavia> Kamping_Kaiser: I can
<Kamping_Kaiser> <filename>changelog</filename>slightly in this case to reflect <- missing space before 'slightly', line 817 of UbuntuDocsSVN/generic/packagingguide/Cbasic.xml
<Kamping_Kaiser> * C/basic.xml
<Burgundavia> Kamping_Kaiser: done
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks
<Burgundavia> oops, forgot to mention you, sorry
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol np. its 1 byte
<Kamping_Kaiser> Burgundavia, ping? can you look at another of those pages for me? i'm not sure this one is correct 
<Burgundavia> Kamping_Kaiser: sure
<Kamping_Kaiser> same file, liune 1348 -> 1358 - shouldnt that itemizedlist be inside the note?
<Kamping_Kaiser> bbl
<Burgundavia> Kamping_Kaiser: good catch, yes
<nixternal> g'nite
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: argh, bug in the Packaging Guide? no way :-)
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: they don't exist
<LaserJock> I don't think it's possible, my spelling and grammar are perfect ;-)
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: right...
<Burgundavia> Kamping_Kaiser: why have you not applied for svn write yet?
<Kamping_Kaiser> oh, burg has gone
<Kamping_Kaiser> because i dont often make sugestions, i just lurk around and sugest when i think suitable (usualy just after each release :P)
<Kamping_Kaiser> and Laser_away  - of course your perfect - its the package thats broken it ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> also, the 'REVU' link on ubuntu.xml is just a standard link - it doesnt show its external...perhaps it could somehow?
<Madpilot> no idea
<Kamping_Kaiser> nm. bbl. dinner :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> back
<mdke> nixternal: pong
<mdke> nixternal: ah, plone? Ubuntu hasn't used plone for a long time! If absolutely essential I suppose we can dig it out, but I'm not sure
<Kamping_Kaiser> is there someone i should ping specifically to talk about the packing guide,?
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: yeah, Laser_away 
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, thanks. i'll ping him then
<Kamping_Kaiser> Laser_away, http://packages.qa.ubuntu.org/ http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/ dont seem to exist, they are referenced for 'package information' in bugs.xml .
<Kamping_Kaiser> oh hang on
<Kamping_Kaiser> its http://packages.qa.debian.org, ubuntu -> debian 
<Kamping_Kaiser> Laser_away, line 133, shouldnt 'Process' be a lowercase P?
<Kamping_Kaiser> and the qa. problem is line 53 fyi
* Kamping_Kaiser feels like bug tips should be somewhere else, but i'm not sure where it would go
<Kamping_Kaiser> (bugs.xml) line 263 - "ubuntu uses ..." - shouldnt that be 'launchpad uses'?
<mpt_> nixternal, is the switching-from-windows guide supposed to work at the moment? I get XML errors from yelp
<Kamping_Kaiser> perhaps in apendix -> additional resources it should be clear they are all external links (it is if you hover a mouse over, but perhaps a sentence about it?)
<Kamping_Kaiser> Laser_away, appendix.xml, line 273, toyour, missing space
* Kamping_Kaiser goes to try and make a patch
<Kamping_Kaiser> random ping : should i email the diff (its about 40 lines of not much) to the list or to Laser_away directly?
<bimberi> hey Kamping_Kaiser.  My one diff was submitted to the list (if that helps)
<Kamping_Kaiser> bimberi, the only time i have sent  a diff i went direct to robotgeek , but if they go publicly thats cool
* Kamping_Kaiser will email soon'
* bimberi went by https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute
* Kamping_Kaiser lols. how novel, folowing the rules ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> emailed.
* bimberi likes to start that way ;)
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: list definitely is better, that way we can all see you're contributing :)
<mdke> thanks for that
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok, will do mdke :) 
<Kamping_Kaiser> np
<jsgotangco> evening
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<mpt_> Ugh, this is depressing
<jsgotangco> hmmm did the docteam meeting happen?
<mpt_> jsgotangco, yes, 17 hours ago
<jsgotangco> in this channel? i dont see a -meeting log
<mpt_> In this channel, -meeting was being used for marketing
<jsgotangco> cheers
* mpt_ cries
<mpt_> So I decided to write an example help page
<mpt_> to show how to structure a help page
<mpt_> And the topic I chose was "I installed a program but now I can?t find it"
<mpt_> But, holy crap, that's a horrible problem to solve
<mpt_> The simplest method that I can see includes typing "which nameofprogram" in a Terminal
<mpt_> and copying-and-pasting the results into the Applications Menu Editor
<ompaul> mpt_, only works if the program is on the existing paths and not all programs are
<mpt_> but that's lame-o
<mpt_> and, yeah
<ompaul> for that case what is needed is locatedb and a clever grep of the output which sees "bin" and tests for elf type
<ompaul> then you can get some of it 
<mpt_> You can drag a program directly from a "Search for Files" window into the panel, yay
<mpt_> But can you drag it into alacarte? Noooooooo
<ompaul> but what if the program has a name like sshd and you installed openssh-server
<mpt_> ompaul, I'm concerned with graphical programs
<mpt_> sshd you shouldn't ever want in the menus anyway, correct?
<ompaul> mpt_, well if you were doing strange things and setting up configs and tearing them down again you might
<ompaul> sshd has many uses
<ompaul> so I would not concur that for all use cases you would not want it in your menus
<ompaul> or openvpn which installs with the idea that openvpn is a daemon however what I am doing at the moment I had to borrow one non ubuntu laptop from someone to create the network effects and it has a lovely little feature that you can drag a config file out and right click on it and this invokes the program 
<ompaul> I am setting up network one - tearing it down setting up network two and tearing it down and so on
<ompaul> and really that is what I should be doing now ;-)
* ompaul goes back to laptops and numerous configs
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: something must have gone wrong with the URLs, those should be for Debian
<nixternal> hola compadres
<LaserJock> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> wasabi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hmm, tryint to clean up a little mess on LP
<nixternal> heh, sounds like fun
<LaserJock> I need to revert some changes that somebody did
<nixternal> now im in the process of setting up a little ubuntu server to do some local testing
<nixternal> malicious or no?
<LaserJock> not malicious, just misguided ;-)
<nixternal> joy
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> someone has sent a patch for the packaging guide on the ML, you may want to check it out
<LaserJock> yeah
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-23
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia 
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: did you apply that typo patch to the Packaging Guide?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: I applied two last night, that Kamping_Kaiser told me about, but nothing from the mailing list
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> thanks
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: oh, just ran across karl's patch. You can apply it
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I'm doing massive packaging guide work
<nixternal> jsgotangco: @##@# i have been waiting for you!!!
<nixternal> hiya by the way ;)
<LaserJock> wow
<jsgotangco> really?
<nixternal> hehe
* jsgotangco is far far away at the moment
<LaserJock> that's quite the "hello, how are you?"
<nixternal> ya, the philippines page, what are you using for cms?
<jsgotangco> drupal
<nixternal> sweet jesus
<nixternal> i need that theme
<nixternal> for ubuntu chicago
<jsgotangco> i just ripped it from ubuntu-au
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> interesting
<jsgotangco> im actually in my hometown connected via UMTS
<nixternal> hometown?
<nixternal> how many do you have?
<jsgotangco> just down south
<nixternal> ya, you told me about that
<jsgotangco> no i meant the place i grew up
<jsgotangco> we still have our house here but no telephone at the moment
<jsgotangco> and ive been wanting to try out the card i bought
<jsgotangco> this will kill my phone bill though
<Burgundavia> nixternal: which page?
<nixternal> page for?
<nixternal> http://www.ubuntu-ph.org/
<nixternal> that is the theme i want to put on http://chi.ubuntu-us.org
<nixternal> im going to use drupal for it
<jsgotangco> yeah just removing the pain of creating a site makes drupal a very nice choice
<nixternal> indeed
<nixternal> i just need that theme...who over at au has it?
<jsgotangco> where are you hosted
<Burgundavia> for ubuntu.ca, I figured we just didn't have enough need for anything heavier than static pages
<nixternal> probably the same here as well Burgundavia, but i rather start off with a cms, plus drupal gives you a small forums module as well as a small blog module
<nixternal> im hosted via Ubuntu
<nixternal> all ih ave is mad ftp access
<nixternal> it is mighty elite i tell ya
<jsgotangco> via ubuntu?
<nixternal> LoCo Hosting they do
<jsgotangco> oh we separated from that for quite a while already
<jsgotangco> we now use a dedicatged server along with some other teams
<nixternal> ahhh
<LaserJock> hmm, my packaging guide initial edgy work ends up as a 73K diff
<jsgotangco> br, id, in, au, and ph are on 1 server
<nixternal> ahh, so that is how you stole it from them ;)
<nixternal> well, it is FOSS, so
<nixternal> ;)
<jsgotangco> they probably got it from the fridge as well since its running drupal
<jsgotangco> and jeff's in charge of fridge so...
<nixternal> good luck getting in touch with the jdub
<nixternal> at least he don't answer me
<LaserJock> well, he left Canonical so I think that's affected fridge
<Burgundavia> he is an insanely busy person
<jsgotangco> hey he's not like that in person
<nixternal> i know he is insanely busy, but...
<jsgotangco> lca2007 is greatly taking shape too
<jsgotangco> brb
<robitaille> jdub left canonical?  I didn't know that;  that may  explains the lack of fridge updates...
<nixternal> hehe
<jsgotangco> well up to this month
<nixternal> he has either left, or leaves at the end of this month
<nixternal> moinmoin is a pain to setup and config
<jsgotangco> kinisson also resigned but moving to a new company
<LaserJock> really?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<robitaille> you stay long enough around a project, and you see your share of people coming and going...
<LaserJock> nixternal: it seems easier than mediawiki for me
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> i have it installed, however i can't change the theme
<nixternal> i have done everything i think
<LaserJock> oh, that's pretty easy
<Burgundavia> robitaille: he leaves at the end of the month
<nixternal> LaserJock: teach me ol' wise one
<nixternal> as it seems nobody in moinmoin is alive
<LaserJock> and JaneW left but we got Mr. JaneW 
<robitaille> and before daniels, mako, thom...quite a few names since last year
<Burgundavia> rob wier, a few others
<Burgundavia> it is expecting that you are going to loose people
<LaserJock> nixternal: just a sec, I can't find the right page. I know in general
<jsgotangco> i think even daf left
<Burgundavia> make and jdub may come back
<Burgundavia> yep, he went to collabra
<robitaille> can I quit my job of dealing with reportbug reports :)
<Burgundavia> robitaille: we can just let them silently drop
<jsgotangco> yeah
<robitaille> I now simply reply to them:   use LP.  I don't even bother filing new reports myself
<robitaille> they spend the time filing a report; I would feel bad simply ignoring them
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> canonical needs another QA person
<jsgotangco> hmm why is karma jumping so high lately
<Burgundavia> I think they just rejigged everything
<robitaille> some of these bug reports are interesting.  A guy with a @hp.com address reporting a memory leak in a library
<Burgundavia> hp has been big into debian for awhile now
<nixternal> Fujitsu: ping?
<Burgundavia> robitaille: do you have any idea how to subscribe to an entire products bugs?
<LaserJock> nixternal: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnThemes#head-0f9b4561b6bd896ec150c626df63d39d77be3973
<robitaille> Burgundavia, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/libnss-db/+subscribe
<robitaille> for an example.
<nixternal> ya LaserJock, i have done all that
<nixternal> im trying something new now
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  but I have never done it myself
<LaserJock> nixternal: it didn't work?
<nixternal> nope...
<nixternal> im sure i messed something up..trying something new now
<LaserJock> odd, I've done it like 3 or 4 times
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I don't know about products but for packages I use Intial Bug Contacts
<Burgundavia> well, I need products
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website
<LaserJock> I don't see anything there
<LaserJock> other than perhaps https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-website
<LaserJock> bombs away!!
<jsgotangco> hmm ive been liking livejournal lately
<LaserJock> and I spam ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i might get a new phone later
<LaserJock> what?
<LaserJock> you don't like that phone, I mean camera, I mean phone ?
<jsgotangco> no its already 7 months old
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> yeah, you need one with a can/bottle opener
<jsgotangco> im thinking of getting one with a 3.2MP lens
<jsgotangco> maybe an E61 would be nice since it also has WLAN
* LaserJock will have to try this SMS thing out some time
<jsgotangco> are you aware you could also send pictures and sound using MMS
<LaserJock> yeah, I think I read that somewhere
<LaserJock> weird
<LaserJock> I'm generally fairly aware that technologies exist, I just don't use them
<LaserJock> I don't want to pay for them
* LaserJock is a cheapskate
<jsgotangco> its pretty cheap here
<jsgotangco> and it gets easily abused
<jsgotangco> a lot of small clips with compromising actions have been passing randomly
<LaserJock> I only pay for the basic/cheapest service I could find
<Burgundavia> hmm, would you believe I don't and have never owned a cell phone?
<LaserJock> I only have one because I'm married
<LaserJock> and we have 1 car
<Burgundavia> ah, another useless thing I don't have
<jsgotangco> because you're always online
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: a car?
<jsgotangco> my 4 year old kid has a kiddie cellphone
<Burgundavia> yep
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: that's terrible ;-)
<jsgotangco> she doesn't use it
<Burgundavia> but being online has nothing todo with not having a car
<jsgotangco> it only has 3 buttons
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: we'd be sunk without a car
<jsgotangco> HOME MOM DAD
<LaserJock> cool
* Burgundavia secretly hates technology
<LaserJock> I can understand that
<Burgundavia> it is too hard to use and too expensive
<Burgundavia> takes too much of my time
<LaserJock> yeah, like this silly Ubuntu stuff
<LaserJock> too expensive
<LaserJock> too hard
<Burgundavia> that is reason I use ubuntu
<LaserJock> too time hungry
<Burgundavia> it passes those "too" tests
<LaserJock> too expensive because I want to buy build machines
* jsgotangco thinks technology is great, but you have to look into the practicality of it instead of being overwhelmed by features
<LaserJock> too hard to give up
<jsgotangco> hey i have a 1GB microSD in my phone hehehe
<LaserJock> shesh
<LaserJock> I had no idea I had 4 patches on the ML that I hadn't applied
<jsgotangco> i wish my wristwatch could be used to store an ISO
<LaserJock> naughty, naughty, LaserJock 
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: would you consider adding some non-volatile memory in your body if the technology comes heh
<LaserJock> probably not "in"
<LaserJock> anybody know Cyanescent from the art team?
<LaserJock> he's #1 in karma
<LaserJock> all specs
<jsgotangco> im out have a nice sunday
<LaserJock> cya jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> ok, ugh, /support/faq on the website is sadly out of date
<LaserJock> is there a website list yet?
<Burgundavia> not currently
<Burgundavia> we need to get these various pieces from jdub, who is really bad at responding to requests
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: thoughts on /support/faq and the help specific things there?
<nixternal> karma system broken?
<nixternal> Karma:  85851
<nixternal> umm..cuz i am pretty much idlin' for that
<robitaille> nixternal,  we all got major karma increases recently
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> makes me look special
<nixternal> i went from 20k to 85k
<robitaille> I think I'm in the 260,000s
<robitaille> top guy on LP is a 1.4 millions
<nixternal> jeesh
<Burgundavia> nixternal: so am I. Karma does slowly decrease
<nixternal> that is the first time i looked at my page in a while and i noticed it
<Burgundavia> I really need to write a blog post about how to and not to announce your new distro
<nixternal> let me read the announcement you are referring to
<Burgundavia> top of lxer
<Burgundavia> just a link to sectoo.org, which has nothing to download
<nixternal> ahh ya
<Burgundavia> if you announce a new linux distro, you had better have something to download
<Burgundavia> it was one of the reasons Ubuntu did so well, really early on
<nixternal> i love the google ads
<Burgundavia> very classly, no?\
* Burgundavia goes into the business of creating fake linux distros just to get the google ad revenue
<nixternal> i am putting in a spec that www.ubuntu.com utilize google ads to generate money for keggers
<nixternal> these people need to realise...75%+ i would say of the people who use linux, are never going to click on a an ad in their life
<nixternal> http://static.flickr.com/63/195720383_b8f2939284.jpg?v=0
<nixternal> tornado that came through tonight
<nixternal> you can barely see the little guy
<nixternal> http://static.flickr.com/76/195720358_9d8316607a_o.jpg
<nixternal> all the hail on one of the cars
<nixternal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nixternal/
<Burgundavia> interesting
<Burgundavia> you people have screwed up weather
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> that is chicago for you
<nixternal> we heard the sirens in the town over..ours never went off
<nixternal> it dropped from 81f to 56f in 15 minutes
<nixternal> it was weird
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: sorry, was AFK. The support/faq seems a bit scattered to me
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: no worries. Can you look at it now?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: well I think it's a little sad that help.ubuntu.com is the very last line
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> good point
<Burgundavia> think getting help should be the second topic?
<Burgundavia> that would put it on the first page for most people
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> it should be fairly high, I'd think
<LaserJock> I think getting rid of some of the Q&A might be nice
<LaserJock> it's a bit hard to scan the TOC
<Burgundavia> hmm, indeed
<LaserJock> hmm, do you want to have important items first?
<Burgundavia> it could use that
<Burgundavia> I just did a first pass, to get needed information in
<LaserJock> like I would think, Shipit and How to get Ubuntu? would be hit first before "What do the funny names mean?"
<LaserJock> anyway, I gotta go
<LaserJock> that could be a really cool page
<LaserJock> I like it
<LaserJock> but seems like it could  use a bit of help
<Fujitsu> nixternal, pong.
<Fujitsu> nixternal, pong.
<mpt__> "The data exchange section describes methods of exchanging data." -- MSDN
<Kamping_Kaiser> rofl
<Fujitsu> Hahhaha
<mpt__> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure
<nixternal> so who broke ubuntu.com
<theCore> is there any plan to improve the presentation of the docs?
<nixternal> it is definately, you can hear a pin drop, quiet around here
<theCore> nixternal: a quiet channel, mean productive peoples ;)
<theCore> 1 hour for a reply, not bad ;)
<nixternal> lol
<phanatic> evening
<phanatic> i just wanted to ask how often are the docs regenerated from rosetta?
<jjesse> phanatic: not very
<phanatic> jjesse: is it possible to ask for it when say we've completed a fair amount of translations?
<nixternal> anyone know where i can find the meeting minutes or aganda for the Ubuntu Development Team meeting?
<jjesse> phanatic: i don't know really how it works, but i would ask mdke as he is more of an expert on that then me
<jjesse> nixternal: just at the meeting log 
<nixternal> arg..figures ;)
<nixternal> im trying to finish up the UWN and get it out
<phanatic> jjesse: thanks, i'll poke mdke later then...
<jjesse> phanatic: np
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue7     READY FOR REVIEW - READY FOR RELEASE
* crimsun gets out his red pen
<nixternal> someone please go through and do a quick proofread
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> it is probably pretty crude crimsun
<crimsun> oh we can fix that in an hour :-)
<nixternal> i did a spell check on it, thats about it
<crimsun> July, 15 - 21 2006  <-- strange placement of comma
<nixternal> not strange, but retarded
<crimsun> well I try not to offend the authors right off
<nixternal> crimsun: if you would please, just make the changes as you go through it
<crimsun> sure
<nixternal> i can't be offended, so it doesn't matter ;)
<crimsun> I have to become acclimated to kde, so this will take a bit
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> im gonna go eat some sketti
<crimsun> I love this url catcher
<nixternal> i shall return
<nixternal> klipper?
<crimsun> yeah
<nixternal> good stuff once you tame it
<nixternal> bbiaf
<crimsun> edited.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-16
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> hey mdke
<jjesse> morning
<jjesse> finally got svn password figured out
<jjesse> going to start working on add-applications.xml for kubunu
<nixternal> woohoo
<nixternal> so now that you have your svn password figured out, we don't need to switch to bzr now right? ;p
<nixternal> muhehe
* nixternal hides
<jjesse> i would still argue to switch to bzr
<nixternal> right now I would too, but as soon as the svn server hooks get fixed, then I am all for svn again ;p
<DarkRaven> Hi, how would I go about to work on a specific language file (.PO) off line and then upload it?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-17
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<Simon80> can someone look at the pbuilder patch I posted to the mailing list months ago? I don't know how I'm supposed to bring attention to it if posting to the ML didn't work
<mdke> Simon80: the packaging guide maintainer is too busy to take care of it at the moment. But, if you repost to say that your patch wasn't looked at, hopefully someone will be able to look at it - don't give up, and don't be afraid of posting more than once
<mdke> Simon80: perhaps nixternal will be able to look at your patch
<mdke> he has some interest in packaging
<Simon80> thanks
<shirish> guys does anybody know where I can find info. on ubuntu server installation?
<nixternal> Simon80: I will take a look at your patch here in a few...yes mdke, my interest in packaging has lead me to MOTU :)
<jjesse> nixternal: my password aint working :(
<Admiral_Chicago> i thought you remembered it.
<jjesse> i had it reset, but the one they sent me isn't working
<Admiral_Chicago> oh... :\
<Admiral_Chicago> gnome is apparently using their own documentation markup now, that should make it fun us to integrate better with GNOME docs....
<jjesse> yeah i saw that on Riddell's blog
<j1mc> aw, that stinks.
<Admiral_Chicago> learning docbook is a task enough, good luck to the other people that plan to work on GNOME docs.
<Admiral_Chicago> i've learned docbook is pretty intuative (imho) if you put the <> </> in the right place
<j1mc> in reading his post . . . the change doesn't sound so bad . . . it's just that it is change.  we'll have to adapt.
<jjesse> i think we are starting to move closer to a kubuntu-docs team then if kde is still using docbook and gnome is using somehting new
<j1mc> jjesse: don't you already have a kubuntu-docs team?
<jjesse> people that work on kubuntu docs can also work on ubuntu-docs, we use the same repo, same irc channel, and same launchpad team
<j1mc> heh... kind of weird how there's a xubuntu-doc team on launchpad, but no similar setup for kubuntu-docs.
<nixternal> jjesse: hehe :)
<jjesse> serious
<nixternal> j1mc: there is also an edubuntu-doc team, but they have since been absorbed
<j1mc> ah...
<j1mc> i don't know... i do like having just one central IRC conversation point to discuss docs.
<j1mc> if the doc-making process gets to splintered between gnome / kde / whatever, though . . .
<j1mc> i can see how it might get complicated.
<jjesse> i agree, but if gnome is moving to a new markup system, then ubuntu-dcos will be following wouldn't it?
<j1mc> i would assume so.  from riddel's post it made it sound like this new structure would be something that KDE doc workers could use, too.  ?
<j1mc> all doc information could be available for any app across linux. ?
<j1mc> i'll have to look into it further
<j1mc> i'm really just getting the hang of docbook anyway.  :)
<mdke> jjesse: what's the error given by your password?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> jjesse: I dunno. Sounds like you have the wrong password. Sure there wasn't a later email with a new password? You've had a few...
<jjesse> i know i've had a few, i created a new rt request which was acted upon
<mdke> have you checked to make sure you're using the most recent?
<jjesse> well it was the one sent two days ago
<mdke> ah, you mean you did another rt request yourself
<mdke> ok, I guess it went wrong then
<jjesse> yeah i did, np
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-18
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<jd_> hello
<jd_> i would like to join this team
<Madpilot> hi jd_
<Madpilot> are you on the docteam mailing list yet?
<jd_> working on it now
<jd_> so what are some of the basic things u do
<jd_> personally
<jd_> with ubuntu doc
<Madpilot> personally? not much anymore, actually. I did a lot of work on the Ubuntu help system (System->Help) a few releases ago
<jd_> i just wanted to get involved since ubuntu is free and all.
<nixternal> god, I love it when people say exactly that...they totally understand it, and are morally good people philosophically speaking :)
<Madpilot> have a look on the DocTeam's wiki pages too - there's a list of active projects there
<nixternal> jd_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<nixternal> get familiar with editing the wiki (MoinMoin) of course, then start studying your DocBook/XML
<Flannel> jd_: You might check out your LoCo team too, they're always looking for active people, for a more local front to FOSS helping.
<Flannel> not for the Docu team, but just as a way to get involved with Ubuntu in general
<jd_> ok ty
<jd_> the guy who started ubuntu, pretty good guy
<jd_> not just for ubuntu but other things
<jd_> now for another ? what do i have to do in order to become a member
<jd_> oh im sorry my program didnt display all the recent things that were written in this chat
<jd_> lol
<Madpilot> jd_, Ubuntu Membership is based on sustained contributions to the whole project
<jd_> ok
<shirish> hi all, can anybody tell me where can I find the .pdf or an .odf file for https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/server/C/
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-19
<rainman62> hello!!
<tck> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/ is it just me or has 'Open Bugs' disappeared?
<tck> its moved to the right
<tck> i see it
<ubotu> New bug: #126988 in ubuntu-doc "Incorrect text to add logout (exit) button" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/126988
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-20
<mdke_> morning all
<Burgundavia> hey mdke_
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-14
<technomensch> are there currently any members of the wiki team available for a moment?
<kgoetz> Is there a plan to include information on QoS in the server guide? I'd be interested in helping get together a basic page on seting up some tcng classes to get people going if it doesnt already exist
<kgoetz> i think its something that should/could go in the server guide
<kgoetz> i dont see a wiki page on it, i'll start one.
<kgoetz> i've just created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Tcng . The nicest thing i can say about it is ... its incomplete. I will try and improve it as i get better with TCNG myself.
<kgoetz> :\ wiki seems to be running like treacle
<ikonia> Hi documentation team, I'd like to sound an opinion off you guys thats arrose out of multiple support issues.
<ikonia> I'd like to see a note/comment/guideline put in place to request anyone writing or updating a document put either the version of ubuntu the document was intended to be used on. or if it is non-version specific, or generic
<ikonia> I've had a few users following old docs for hardy that just won't work, and they didn't know they where not meant for hardy, I only found out by noticing the differences in how hardy does things and what the documentation was suggesting
<ikonia> Is this something you feel worth while ?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-15
<jjesse> :0
<papabean> :)
<jjesse> always want to say its #ubuntu-docs
<papabean> I had no idea what it took to keep a distro operational.
<jjesse> after all that's what kde doc team uses
<jjesse> a heck of a lot of work
<papabean> I started reading documentation last week for contributing/bug triage/etc.
<papabean> Wow!
<papabean> There is so much to be done to keep up the professional veneer of Ubuntu and its derivatives.
<papabean> IOW, it looks so polished from an end-user standpoint, but its the contribution of thousands of people to make that happen.
<papabean> That's exhilarating.
<jjesse> papabean: you should join and become one of those thousands
<papabean> Well, I just joined the mailing list, I'm in the IRC channel. I'm going to keep reading and see where this leads.
<papabean> I have some errands to run today, but I'm on "house arrest", so it's a good day to learn and contribute.
<nixternal> lol, house arrest :)
 * nixternal gets ready to go run errands....I enjoy working from home :)
 * papabean has to go run those errands - will be back.  Interested in learning how I can help...and in getting Kmail to play nice.
<nixternal> w00t, kmail :)
<nixternal> jjesse: we have another one :)
<vadi2> Hi. This page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager/CompizFusion is woefully outdated. Unfortunately it's linked to by a lot of places like the compiz wiki. I was thinking of wiping the page and just giving instructions on how to enable compiz and start messing with the settings... would that be ok?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-16
<technomensch> I have been trying to find the standard for putting dates for "last updated"
<technomensch> yyyy=mm-dd???  mm/dd/yyyy (standard for us)
<technomensch> us=usa
<Flannel> technomensch: in the wiki, right?
<Flannel> technomensch: @DATE@ is an easy way
<technomensch> not what I meant
<technomensch> I am reorganizing the wifi cards by type within manufacturer
<technomensch> within each page, they have "last updated" and the date formatting is constantly different
<technomensch> I am trying to standardize them to be consistent
<Flannel> technomensch: @DATE@ or [[Date(timestamp)]] do it with how the wiki is configured, which is also how its displayed at the bottom of the page.  That's probably the best 'standard' you can have. (even if you just hard code the text instead of using the macro)
<technomensch> yea, but then it changes the date
<technomensch> if someone hasn't updated it since, oh, 2006, then I shouldn't auto set the date with the code
<technomensch> these are the dates I'm talking about: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported
<Flannel> technomensch: You can either use the macro, or just hard code it.  Use the same format as the standard wiki one.  Which would be YYYY-MM-DD
<technomensch> ok.  that's what I needed.  thanks
<technomensch> yyyy-mm-dd
<technomensch> thanks
<hornyforholbach> hi
<hornyforholbach> i'm horny for holbach
<hornyforholbach> nice to meet you
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-18
<coolbhavi> cody-somerville, hello
<cody-somerville> Hello
<coolbhavi> cody-somerville, I have applied for the ubuntu doc students team and i have introduced myself on the mailing list... Will the team assign me a job before taking me in?
<cody-somerville> I imagine so :)
<coolbhavi> cody-somerville, ok...:) Whom to contact? anyone please help..
<cody-somerville> coolbhavi, try sending another e-mail to the list
<coolbhavi> cody-somerville, OK! yesterday i sent a mail I have a copy will resend it....:)
<cody-somerville> Okay :)
<coolbhavi> cody-somerville, ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com right?
<cody-somerville> yup
 * coolbhavi confused at the mailing list address so asks cody-somerville 
<coolbhavi> okay I sent it...:)
<j1mc_> coolbhavi: phil bull will likely contact you.  sometimes it takes him a couple of days, but you'll hear back.  :]
<coolbhavi> j1mc, OK!
<ianm_> hi
<ianm_> I'm trying to use gtk-recordmydesktop on Hardy to make some tutorials about an app I'm developing.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how to make it record the playing music as well as the mic
<ianm_> the audio source is set to "DEFAULT" in gtk-recordmydesktop and only gets the mic
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-19
<Old_Soldier> anyone here that can help me with a goof i made with bzr?
<Old_Soldier> I forgot to make a diff before i committed now i need to figure out how to get a diff file
<Old_Soldier> nvm i figured it out
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-20
<Flannel> Anyone know why I'd get a "that page already exists" error when moving a page (even though it doesnt)?
<duncan-nz_> hi, anyone watching?
<duncan-nz_> ok, I have a problem with the gramps-doc email list. I've tried rejoining and changing email address, but still I can't get any mails from the lift. I've also checked my spam filters. If you know anything about trouble with the list please type my nickname so I can see you reply. Here's hoping.
<j1mc> hi all - re: Bug 249932 - i've found a parameter in the xubuntu-html-chunk-cust.xsl file that i think may fix it.  would changing <xsl:param name="draft.mode" select="'yes'"/> to
<j1mc> no resolve this?
<j1mc> nm - posted the question to the ML.
<duncan-nz_> jlmc, do you know of any trouble for people receiving email from the list?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-14
<raboof> there seems to be quite a bit of overlap between https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HdaIntelSoundHowto and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshooting
<raboof> when someone is having a 'problem with sound', it sucks to first ask 'is your card a HDA intel one?' - i think the ideal situation would be that we can point someone to SoundTroubleshooting, and that would contain most of the general stuff in HdaIntelSoundHowto
<raboof> and refer from SoundTroubleshooting to HdaIntelSoundHowto for specific issues
<raboof> to make matters worse, there's *also* the 'Comprehensive Sound Problem Solutions Guide' at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=205449
<raboof> i'd say the information there should also be transferred to the wiki
<raboof> but it might be best to first start cleaning up SoundTroubleshooting and HdaIntelSoundHowto
<raboof> do I need to discuss that somewhere, or am I free to just start making improvements?
<Flannel> raboof: improve away!
<Flannel> Assuming there's no comments on those pages to run improvments by someone (sometimes there is for doc freezes on certain pages and stuff)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-15
<evanrmurphy> andrew_sayers: I'm considering that "FlowQ" might be marginally better than "Flowq" (somehow easier for me to process, more reminiscent of "FAQ"). Thoughts?
<andrew_sayers> There's already a program called FlowQ though.
<andrew_sayers> It's in a pretty tangential area, which is why I figured it was okay so long as it's not completely identical.
<evanrmurphy> Ah. :)
<andrew_sayers> Anyway, I'm done for the day.  Until tomorrow.
<evanrmurphy> andrew_sayers: I like the upper limit of 7 (and its justification) on branch node answers, but when it comes to the longest route to action nodes, 7 strikes me as high. I think most users would be find it irritating to click through 7 questions before finding a semi-definitive answer to their real question.
<evanrmurphy> I'm not sure I have a better upper limit to define, but my point is that it may be more important to keep a Flowq route a good deal shorter than 7, whereas a multiple-choice list of 7 isn't too bad.
<evanrmurphy> The other problem with long routes is that each node a user passes through, the more likely s/he is to not perceive the answer to his/her question as one of the listed ones and instead choose "None of the above" to ask directly in the forum.
<evanrmurphy> This detail aside, I'm impressed so far with what you have at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Flowq, and I just subscribed.
<evanrmurphy> andrew_sayers: Can you send me a link to the other project "FlowQ"?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-16
<andrew_sayers> We're planning to move discussions about the Ubuntu Signpost in here from #ubuntu-signpost, since there seems to be interest from the doc team.
<andrew_sayers> If you object, please say before we increase the traffic level around here too much :)
<mpt> andrew_sayers, good move IMO
<Micro2GB> Hello, I am looking for permission to use file://Xubuntu-jmak-ws.png.  As my back drop for my website.  It is not for profit, and I will leave the source in my site code.
<Micro2GB> hello
<Micro2GB> any one home
<raboof> file://Xubuntu-jmak-ws.png ? where did you find that file?
<Micro2GB> in my desktop backround
<Micro2GB> it is there plain as day but it was very hard to save to a folder.
<raboof> ok. check with 'dpkg -S filename' to which package that file belongs, and talk to the maintainers, I guess
<Micro2GB> I have been every where to find out if I am able to use this file on my own site but no one knows about the file.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-17
<ball> hello popey!
<popey> moo!
<ball> What can I write (or proof read) that's going to help?
<popey> thats a fine question, I dont know, off the top of my head, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam probably can help
 * ball bravely fires up a Web browser
<ball> Nice.  My launchpad ID lets me log into the wiki.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-19
<Templar1949> I recently found that a system(Librarian) using an Intel Core 2 Quad(Q6600) microprocessor can run 64-bit code and the AMD-64 Desktop version of "Jaunty Jackalope".  Is there documentation this topic?
<Templar1949> There is no problem, per se, but I found out by "trying" the AMD-64 version on that system, on which I had been running the 32-bit version previously...
<Templar1949> Who should I report this observation to?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-21
<mistrynitesh> hello all.... just one doubt that I wanted to clear.... is kernel required only for *free* operating systems or *any* operating system?
<mistrynitesh> the reason for asking this question is because the kubuntu-docs mention so in the about-kubuntu section on the linux page
<ChrisWoollard> !ping godbyk
<ubot2> Factoid 'ping godbyk' not found
<ChrisWoollard> ping godbyk
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard.
<ChrisWoollard> Hello
<ChrisWoollard> I was having a look at bug https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/568652
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 568652 in ubuntu-manual "Mac OS X in lower case (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ChrisWoollard> I don't think Mac OS X should be in small caps. If you look at Apple's website, no reference to OS X is in small caps
<ChrisWoollard> What do you think?
<godbyk> On Apple's website, there's no reference to anything in small caps, afaik.
<ChrisWoollard> Exactly. So i would sticck with there styling if at all possible.
<godbyk> Well, we can't use their site as a data point on style if they're not using small caps at all.
<godbyk> We should be consistent with our own style.
<ChrisWoollard> Whatever the case. Somebody should make an executive desision to get the bug fixed / closed. It has been kicking around for ages.
<godbyk> Agreed.  I'll take a look at it again this afternoon.
<ChrisWoollard> Especially as the release is due on 29th
<godbyk> Yeah, it's coming up fast.
<godbyk> If you get some time, do you want to take a shot at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/605281?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 605281 in ubuntu-manual "Too much italic text in the Rhythmbox section (affects: 1) (heat: 7)" [Medium,New]
<ChrisWoollard> I will try to fix some bugs. but I am away on holiday next week. So i will do what I can this week.
<ChrisWoollard> Will do. I will look at that.
<godbyk> Thanks.
<ChrisWoollard> I think I can sort that.
<godbyk> Awesome, thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-25
<Traveler9> hello?
<Traveler9> i have a ubuntu problem
<Traveler9> the ubuntu menu syad demo and full instal thats what i want to do but i click it and it doesnt work how do i do it
<Traveler9> does anyone have any idea what i need to do
<Traveler4> is any one there?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-20
<nhandler> Does anyone know of a moinmoin macro to display a list of child pages, and has the ability to specify certain pages to exclude from the list?
<gispita> hello to everyone ...
<gispita> it is anyone online to help me please for just 1 min ?
<gispita> can anyone to tell me how to change the su passwd ...
<gispita> i just install the ubuntu 10.4 and i try it to do su
<gispita> and password what i set wen i install him
<gispita> and not working ...
<gispita> any password i try not working ???
<gispita> know any one what`s the password for su ?
<Captainkrtek> gispita, just use sudo
<Captainkrtek> gispita, this is not a support channel by the way, try #ubuntu
<gispita> ok thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-19
<kotux> hi
<kotux> can somebody help me with bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc?
<kotux> It's not working on precise b/c I get john@kotux:~$ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc
<kotux> bzr: ERROR: Permission denied: "Cannot create 'bzr'. Only Bazaar branches are allowed."
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-20
<kotux> Hi all, I'll be working on this bug during the next few days. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1076740
<ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 1076740 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Instructions for deleting Guest user" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<kotux> By the way, what is a *.page.stub?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-14
<pmatulis> belkinsa: yep
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-15
<tacorwin> hello
<knome> evening
<tacorwin> So, was anyone here at the discussion about merging the Docs team and the UM team?
<pmatulis> yep
<tacorwin> well, as an update, we in the UM team are kind of split down the middle in discussion on the merge.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-16
<awesomesauce> heyhey there
<awesomesauce> i found a way of booting ubuntu with secure boot on
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-17
<belkinsa> o/ all.  I'm looking for knome, amd pmatulis to speak to.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: morning
<belkinsa> pmatulis, I was thinking if I have barked-up the wrong tree when I joined the team and I feel like i want to step down for that reason.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: what's wrong?
<belkinsa> I don't know, some strange form of burnout is happening and I feel like what we are trying will never work (resource pooling and also the wiki partoling by the admins)
<pmatulis> these are proposals.  if they don't work out they don't work out.  the main thing is to try to get more people involved.  i don't know what you mean by wiki patroling
<belkinsa> Never mind, I think I just need a brea.
<pmatulis> i'll have a 'good news proposal' at the next meeting.  at least what i consider to be good news
<belkinsa> Mind if I  wait until the meeting to hear it?
<pmatulis> that's the plan
<pmatulis> we need you.  but being a neat freak may also mean being a perfectionist and if so then you'll need to drop some of that
<belkinsa> You have a point there.
<pmatulis> take a breath and try to enjoy
<pmatulis> :)
<belkinsa> I shall do so.
<pleia2> belkinsa: taking breaks is good :) I've also swapped my world view to being excited/happy when people help, rather than disappointed when people don't
<pleia2> and pmatulis is right, we need you
 * pmatulis takes a sip of (expensive) wulong tea
 * pleia2 drinks more water to compat the lack of air conditioning in this country (in Germany for a work sprint, it's summer here :))
<belkinsa> Ah, I see now why you are up "early".
<pleia2> hehe, yeah, it's 3:40 in the afternoon :)
<belkinsa> I better be going to eat something and see what I can do today, thanks you two!
<pleia2> enjoy!
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<belkinsa> At least it's nice and cool today.
<belkinsa> Jeez, the spam-bots are eating the mailing-list mod database.
<pleia2> yeah, it's been an unusually noisy day
<belkinsa> It started last night.
 * belkinsa checks the leadership one
<belkinsa> Nope!  Empty.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-07-18
<teward> has anyone observed any issues with help.ubuntu.com?
<teward> Just got a meta post over on Ask Ubuntu about the server potentially being down (now marked Offtopic over there, 'cause it's not about Ask Ubuntu or the Stack Exchange software)
<pleia2> I haven't seen anything about an outage
#ubuntu-doc 2016-07-22
<lfaraone> I'm intending to make update-initramfs reference https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels -- should that be moved somewhere else in the hierarchy?
#ubuntu-doc 2017-07-23
<bobpaul> The page SaneDaemonTutorial directs users connecting Windows to a saned-shared scanner to use SaneTWAIN. Not all windows software supports twain, though. For example, Photoshop can only use scanners via WIA. I think the documentation should also mention the wiasane project. I propose the following edit:
<bobpaul> https://pastebin.com/hEV3iB2J
<bobpaul> Additionally, upstream saned intentionally doesn't share network scanners (I suspect it's to prevent a loop if two saned instances exist on the same network). But this behavior can be surprising to the users and isn't obvious from the sane documentation (resulting in bugs like this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sane-backends/+bug/1632183)
<bobpaul> I'd like to propose the following note is added to the SaneDaemonTutorial page: https://pastebin.com/2s7X7MRq
<bobpaul> If anyone feels the need to reach me, I'm https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-launchpad-bobpaul
#ubuntu-doc 2020-07-13
<dsmythies> pleia2: Do you still hang around here?
<dsmythies> If yes, do you kno whow to search the wikis for any edits done by an individual?
<dsmythies> s / kno whow / know how
<pleia2> hmm, good question
<pleia2> I don't think so, since they don't use the internal wiki search, probably because it would be slow and throw errors all the time, instead it uses Google, and clicking on the name of the last editor just goes to launchpad
<pleia2> folks in #canonical-sysadmin might know more
<dsmythies> Thank you.
<pleia2> although... I've been subscribed to the entire help wiki for a few years so I have an email record, what user are you looking for?
<pleia2> not sure how reliable it is, but it's a start
#ubuntu-doc 2020-07-14
<dsmythies> pleia2: I'll e-mail you. (in case I am incorrect that the person mugh be up to no good.)
<dsmythies> s / mugh / might
<pleia2> sounds good
