#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-01
<humphreybc> godbyk, ping
<humphreybc> ping vish
<humphreybc> new getinvolved page, http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4396509533/sizes/o/
<vish> humphreybc: pong
<humphreybc> oh hey vish
<vish> hi..
<humphreybc> i was thinking of perhaps putting some icons here, instead of the collage of window tools
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4396509533/sizes/o/
<humphreybc> but i think the collage looks nice. do you see anywhere on the website that would benefit from any icons?
<vish> hmm ,
<humphreybc> have a look at the other two pages as well
<humphreybc> Ahh, that's what I wanted icons for
<humphreybc> at the moment i'm using the same image for the home page and the downloads page
<humphreybc> I want a new image for the downloads page
<humphreybc> i've sort of exhausted all of the image possibilities on the site already, i've used screenshots from the manual, the title page, the team logo and a collage of screenshots of our tools
<vish> humphreybc: seems clean now.  IMO , no need icons , and not sure , where they would be required either.. [except "download now" , but that looks good as it is now as well]
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> and an image for the download page to replace that one i'm using twice?
<humphreybc> considering that page gives you the option for a manual in different languages and formats... maybe somehow we can find or create an image that shows that?
<vish> humphreybc: the home "download now" and the other do that same thing right?
<vish> or does the home one take you to the downloads page?
<humphreybc> the home download now button detects your system language and then downloads the correct PDF
<humphreybc> the "alternative download options" takes you to the download page
<humphreybc> where you can specify a language, edition and printing optimized or not
<vish> humphreybc: then , its the same action, its better to leave it sme
<vish> same*
<humphreybc> righto
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, anyone else find the new accessibility tool, erm, lacking, in Lucid Alpha 3?
<humphreybc> haven't installed alpha 3 yet
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm guessing it'll change a lot before beta, but it means that we need to mention it
<humphreybc> vish, so you like the site mockups?
<IlyaHaykinson> also, we don't have a section on Gwibber, which is now a default app
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: this is true
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: any thoughts on what to do about our hardware chapter?
<IlyaHaykinson> i have not been able to get people to write anything.
<IlyaHaykinson> perhaps we can divide it into 8 portions, or however many sections are left, and assign each to a different person.
<IlyaHaykinson> ask for progress within 5 days, or something like that, to ensure that we have some progress
<humphreybc> that sounds like a good idea
<vish> humphreybc: looks nice..  i would probably move the first collage a bit higher in this > http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4396509533/sizes/o/
<humphreybc> we need to have a meeting at some point i think
<vish> there is a bit of extra space on the top of the collage
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: next saturday, probably.
<humphreybc> yep, so we're 18 days away from writing freeze
<humphreybc> eek
<vish> humphreybc: just a bit higher to make the "the manual project" more clearer and unobstructed
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: right. so maybe doing it at the meeting is a bit too late
<humphreybc> vish, done, it's in the branch but i won't bother re-uploading to flickr
<vish> neat..
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: hmm. i need to get cracking as well on finishing my installation chapter
<humphreybc> what do you think of getting a bunch of people to thoroughly read it about 5 days before writing freeze and then report bugs?
<humphreybc> i can ask joey at omgubuntu.co.uk to write a post asking for a bunch of testers and we'll get a load of people combing over it and filing bug reports
<humphreybc> after dinner tonight i'm going to get cracking on the manual and get some more stuff done
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: agreed. though realistically we will need to push the writing freeze further out.
<IlyaHaykinson> some apps are still too raw to document properly
<IlyaHaykinson> imho
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> maybe writing freeze 31 march?
<humphreybc> that's only going to give the translators 20 days till RC to translate stuff though
<IlyaHaykinson> perhaps something like a "content freeze", where we stop adding sections etc, and then a full "writing freeze" after beta has been installed and documented.
<humphreybc> okay so lucid beta is the 18th
<humphreybc> so if we do content freeze say the 20th, writing freeze the 31st
<humphreybc> and our beta can be released on the 31st
<IlyaHaykinson> let's do 21st and 31st -- the 21st is a Sunday.
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> that gives authors 3 days to observe changes in lucid beta and add or remove sections accordingly
<IlyaHaykinson> cool. that should give us enough time to incorporate beta UI changes
<IlyaHaykinson> also... I need advice on Open Office.
<humphreybc> and then ten days to finish their sections and the editors to clean it up
<humphreybc> yeah?
<IlyaHaykinson> it's a big undertaking -- i'm still working through Evolution, and OO is large enough to cause tons of headaches.
<IlyaHaykinson> also Luke Jennings needs work to do, and we thought about splitting up OO
<IlyaHaykinson> but I don't really think we can do OO justice in this timeframe.
<IlyaHaykinson> so, my thinking is write literally 5 paragraphs on OO
<IlyaHaykinson> have Luke spend time on Gwibber and other apps, or help with the hardware chapter
<IlyaHaykinson> and i'll switch to doing editing
<IlyaHaykinson> after my sections are done.
<IlyaHaykinson> then, either in second edition or by 10.10 we can cover OO in reasonable detail.
<IlyaHaykinson> OO does have a lot of help resources available for it, i think, so users shouldn't be left out in the cold.
<humphreybc> yep okay that's a good plan
<humphreybc> when should we request wide scale testing from readers of omgubuntu?
<humphreybc> well, not testing
<humphreybc> but bug checking
<humphreybc> also, chapter 6 is looking a bit short...
<humphreybc> chapter 4 and 6 are the trouble spots
<humphreybc> i'll finish the second half of chapter 10 tonight on extra applications
<humphreybc> also, for screenshots, i'm not sure we're going to have quickshot ready in time
<humphreybc> we may have to manually capture screenshots in english, and then use those in the translated manuals for now
<humphreybc> we'll try to capture shots that don't have much text
<humphreybc> either that, or pick 5 or 10 "most popular" languages and manually translate screenshots for them
<humphreybc> so we'd have 40+ translated manuals, with ten of those having localized screenshots and the rest english screenshots
<humphreybc> after the writing freeze we can get all hands to the pumps on a) screenshots and b) translations - and if you only speak english, then you can help advertise and recruit screenshotters :P
<humphreybc> oops
<humphreybc> recruit translators*
<humphreybc> and we'll have to make sure we fully utilize the ubuntu global jam
<humphreybc> we could also post on the planet asking for help to translate
<humphreybc> we have to give it our best effort
<humphreybc> i think we also have to appoint a translator representative so we can communicate with the translators more
<humphreybc> also, if we do end up having to choose some languages to get localized screenshots, what would they be?
<humphreybc> spanish, german... japanese?
<humphreybc> http://geography.about.com/od/culturalgeography/a/10languages.htm
<humphreybc> so chinese, spanish, arabic, hindi, portuguese, bengali, russian, japanese and german
<IlyaHaykinson> i would choose languages that are different enough. so if we cut this down i would do english, a romance language (spanish, probably); a left-to-right language (arabic), a slavic language (russian), and then chinese.
<IlyaHaykinson> actually, also add hindi
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so that's backup plan
<humphreybc> quickshot probably won't be ready
<humphreybc> so actually:
<IlyaHaykinson> that would cover the top 5 localizations, and a ton of people
<humphreybc> for screenshots:
<humphreybc> PLAN A: Use quickshot to get translated screenshots
<humphreybc> PLAN B: Manually capture screenshots for the top 5 localizations
<IlyaHaykinson> brb
<humphreybc> PLAN C: manually capture screenshots for english and duplicate them in all other languages
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: agree with your plans
 * godbyk yawns.
<godbyk> I'm awake now.
<godbyk> Gimme a sec and I'll make a test.ubuntu-manual.org site.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, so now we have http://ubuntu-manual.org/, http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/, and http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/.
<humphreybc> hey godbyk
<godbyk> hey, humphreybc.
<humphreybc> i'm liking the build reports!
<godbyk> Thanks!
<humphreybc> did you host that progress bar somewhere too so i can email it to joey?
<humphreybc> i'll email him the website as well with the countdown timer
<godbyk> oh, no, I forgot.  Where can I get the progress bar again?
<humphreybc> branch under team-images
<humphreybc> should be there
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay: http://ubuntu-manual.org/progressbar.png
<humphreybc> oh i'll make a favicon for the site too
<humphreybc> sweet as :)
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> gimme one sec
<humphreybc> wolter is going to work on the website now too
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> how big are favicons? 14x14?
<godbyk> humphreybc: 16x16
<humphreybc> ah, 16x16
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> or a nice binary number.
<humphreybc> gah
<humphreybc> okay, in the branch under /website/favicon.ico
<godbyk> I just wrote a script that'll do a bzr pull every 30 minutes for the website.
<humphreybc> and does it build the new manuals every 30 mins?
<godbyk> So if things in the website/ dir get updated, they'll appear on test.ubuntu-manual.org
<godbyk> nope.
<humphreybc> ohhh
<godbyk> that's another box.
<humphreybc> gotcha
<humphreybc> cool!
<humphreybc> you da man kevin :)
<humphreybc> oh btw, fixed the problem with android dropping all the time. wasn't android's fault, it was our router. changed to WEP and it now works fine, a bit insecure but hey
<godbyk> weird.
<godbyk> brb. need to find something to eat.
<humphreybc> godbyk, check out planet ubuntu: http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> oO
<humphreybc> the facebook page is missing from the countdown timer links
<humphreybc> im just adding it in now
<IlyaHaykinson> nice holding page
<IlyaHaykinson> i would add a (c) 2010 Ubuntu Manual Team. And license CC-BY-SA
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> i'm trying to add a bigger gap between the "In the meantime you can follow us here:"
<humphreybc> and the rest of the stuff
<humphreybc> i thought a simple <br> would do it
<humphreybc> godbyk, ive made changes to the countdown timer
<humphreybc> also i've added in favicons, not sure if they'll show up though
<godbyk> So have I. :)
<humphreybc> I just stuck them in root :P
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> well all i did was add in our facebook and planet pages, and shorten some of the descriptions of the links
<humphreybc> i also added the copyright and CC-BY-SA at the bottom
<humphreybc> still can't get the padding right, not sure what's up. I tried margins and padding but it doesn't seem to have much effect - you can have a play if you like to make it even prettier, i just pushed it
<humphreybc> /website/countdown
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> does anyone know how we're going to translate the title page?
<godbyk> humphreybc: If we use thorwil's simpler title page (which I like a lot), then we can put the whole title page in LaTeX. Then we'd use the actual \author and \title commands (which are already translated).
<humphreybc> yeah that sounds like a good idea
<humphreybc> i like his title page too :)
<godbyk> I still have to fix some translations.
<godbyk> I need to find fonts for some, fix bugs in latex code for others, etc.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Better? http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<humphreybc> absolutely!
<humphreybc> thanks!
<humphreybc> check out http://divajutta.com/doctormo/gcweb/
<humphreybc> brett alton is working on that for martin, and brett is going to help us with our website too :)
<IlyaHaykinson> nice design
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> so he's going to give us a hand with our site
<humphreybc> http://brettalton.com
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> I'm trying to push a couple website changes,and I'm getting this error:
<godbyk> Using saved push location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/
<godbyk> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock): Transport operation not possible: http does not support mkdir()
<godbyk> Any ideas what that means?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> using cli or gc>
<humphreybc> ?*
<IlyaHaykinson> that sounds like a cli problem
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: meaning what?
<godbyk> oh.. sorry, I missed humphreybc's question about.
<godbyk> yeab, cli..
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> reason i asked: http://doctormo.ubuntu-ma.us/2010/03/01/launchpad-moving-to-closed-source-auth/
<humphreybc> they seemed to have gone through though kevin
<humphreybc> added robots.txt file etc?
<godbyk> nope, this is one after that.
<humphreybc> heh, i was thinking of left aligning them :P
<humphreybc> hey TommyBrunn
<TommyBrunn> Hey
<humphreybc> we've been playing around with your countdown thing, http://ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> also check out http://test.ubuntu-manual.org
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, I just saw that.
<humphreybc> godbyk: could you get the favicon working for the main site as well?
<TommyBrunn> Oh, cool!
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: the test website renders nice in firefox but chrome not so much
<humphreybc> but good news is that Brett Alton has offered to help us, http://brettalton.com
<TommyBrunn> That's odd. I tried it in webkit, and it looks nice there - and they both use webkit.
<TommyBrunn> Whoa, cool!
<humphreybc> yeah :)
<humphreybc> so we're going to have a kickass site
<humphreybc> which is fantastic
<godbyk> okay, I copied the diff to another machine and pushed.
<humphreybc> godbyk: that's one way around it :P
<humphreybc> you can delete the branch in your troublesome machine and unlink bzr... bzr --help
<godbyk> the troublesome machine happens to be the web server. :-(
<godbyk> I just did a pull --overwite on that machine.
<godbyk> hopefully it's happy now
<godbyk> the favicons should work.. they exist.
<godbyk> though you don't have a <link> tag for them.
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: They work.
<TommyBrunn> You don't need a link tag for them.
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: It's not required because most browsers look automatically, but it's nice to have them anyway.
<TommyBrunn> True enough. Add this then: <link rel="shortcut icon" type="image/x-icon" href="/favicon.ico" />
<humphreybc> godbyk: what happened to the progress bar?
<godbyk> gah.
<godbyk> put the progress bar in the counter subdir and it'll show up
<godbyk> sorry.
<godbyk> the bzr pull killed it
<godbyk> .my internet connection is flaking out on me.
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<godbyk> morning, ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> how are you godbky?
<godbyk> not too bad.
<godbyk> trying to get some more translations working.
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<ubuntujenkins> I have got some more writing to do and quickshot work
<godbyk> Which sections are you writing?
<ubuntujenkins> helping with default apps and now some hardware stuff as well
<godbyk> ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> I think both those chapters need some help.
<godbyk> there's a ton of material to cover.
<ubuntujenkins> there is so much
<godbyk> humphreybc: the progressbar.png file has to be in the countdown/ dir if you want it on ubuntu-manual.org/
<humphreybc> oh really?
<godbyk> website/ -> test.ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> ah okay
<godbyk> website/countdown/ -> ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> kk
<godbyk> 'cause *someone* didn't want the website up yet. :-P
<humphreybc> :D
<godbyk> humphreybc: should be there now.
<humphreybc> it is indeed :)
<humphreybc> thanks!
<humphreybc> righto fellas, i'm off to bed
<humphreybc> if brett alton shows up and wants to know about the website, give him everything he needs and help him get the stuff to work on it
<humphreybc> other than that, priority is on writing and editing :)
<humphreybc> i'll be back this time tomorrow and hopefully i'll have time to crack into writing myself
<humphreybc> oh and also, any last minute feedback on Lernid etc, if people could please post that in the thread and i'll forward it to the relevant people in 24 hours time
<dutchie> hi all
<godbyk> hey, dutchie
<humphreybc> jmburgess: you're still alive!
<dutchie> humphreybc: how can you be 10 minutes late for a tutorial that starts on Thursday?
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> no no, i turned up for the tutorial today and if it was on I would have been 10 minutes late
<humphreybc> but it wasn't on, so i wasn't 10 minutes later
<dutchie> oh
<humphreybc> late*
<dutchie> hehe
<humphreybc> right i better get a move on to my next lecture
<humphreybc> i just dropped $140NZD on a computer architecture text book
<humphreybc> sounds like a fun class... but $140 text books are not cool
<dutchie> how much is $140 in proper money?
<humphreybc> divide it by 2.5
<dutchie> Â£56
<humphreybc> yup
<dutchie> really? 2.5?
<dutchie> that's quite a lot
<humphreybc> i know
<ubuntujenkins> thats a tipical uk price
<humphreybc> that's why so many UK peeps immigrate to NZ :P
<dutchie> heh
 * dutchie is staying here for the foreseeable future
<humphreybc> haha
<dutchie> might have a punt at US places for a masters though
<dutchie> I'll see what happens
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> k catch you later folks
<ubuntujenkins> se ya
 * ubuntujenkins files a quickshot bug because I can't solve it  3 days later sorted lol
 * dutchie updates the translations before going to bed
 * ubuntujenkins has fixed all of the quickshot bugs
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: I very much doubt you've found the Last Bug
<ubuntujenkins> I mean all of the quckshot bugs that are know off :-) if filled the two i just fixed I couldn't fix them a few days ago
<ubuntujenkins> We are going to have so much fun whe resolution change is fully implimented :-)
<dutchie> do you still want lshw/xrandr output on that ML thread?
<ubuntujenkins> I have yours already I think xrandr -s 800x600 works for you?
<ubuntujenkins> thansk :-)
<dutchie> I didn't post anything
<ubuntujenkins> I got yours on irc about a week ago
<ubuntujenkins> you have intel if i remeber rightly
 * dutchie sends anyway
<ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie
<days_of_ruin> From the quickshot wiki: "Quickshot creates a new user called "quickshot" with the password "quickshot." The user is told to log in as "quickshot."" What kind of user is that?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-02
<godbyk> humphreybc: I don't think I've edited any Polish translations lately. The only time I touch the translations is when I'm fixing some LaTeX code that's screwed up. :)
<humphreybc> godbyk, hmm?
<godbyk> humphreybc: re: the email you forwarded to the list.
<humphreybc> oh right
<humphreybc> now i've got ya
<humphreybc> only just found it in my spam toay
<humphreybc> today*
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: what's the easiest way to create some vertical space between paragraphs?
<IlyaHaykinson> is that something you should do, globally, or the writers need to do?
<IlyaHaykinson> i would prefer to put some space between all the paragraphs; they run too closely together.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: ping
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: hi
<humphreybc> i just committed but then got a diverged branch thing because i forgot to pull first
<humphreybc> could you make a backup of what you just edited
<humphreybc> in case i overwrite it
<humphreybc> i don't think i will
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, i don't think that's possible
<IlyaHaykinson_> if you do bzr merge, it should merge it cleanly
<IlyaHaykinson_> so commit -- if it looks like it undid what i edited, i'll back up my stuff and re-commit or something
<humphreybc> cool
 * IlyaHaykinson_ is working on a major edit of the software packaging chapter
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: care to share some details on that edit?
<IlyaHaykinson_> just trying to bring some better organization to the writing. it kind of jumps around from simple to complex to simple
<ubuntujenkins> hello IlyaHaykinson_,
<ubuntujenkins> I will have to spend a few days on using Gwibber for my self and currently it doesn't load for me. I will make a start on the hardware section. What are the other people for that chapter doing? The blueprint doesn't say.
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: just pushed my change; more work later. if wolter logs in -- i think he'll need to do some rework there to bring this chapter up to shape, i think
<IlyaHaykinson_> or i'll continue editing some more.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: let me check
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> Il be back in 15 mins
<IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: I think the highest priorities for hardware are printing and sound
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: I think wolter might have lost some interest in the project, but we'll see.
<IlyaHaykinson_> see my proposed outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware
<IlyaHaykinson_> though note that it may not be complete (i.e. maybe we need more sections than what i included here)
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: hm, but he was committing website things, wasn't he?
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: i'm going to finish chapter 1 and 10 by the end of this week, been meaning to do it for the last few days but just haven't had the time
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: yeah he was, i think he might just be tired of writing? Not sure, I haven't asked him, I thought his section was finished. Maybe he thinks it's finished too
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: ok. i think chapter 10 needs some TLC
<IlyaHaykinson_> some of the apps need to be removed (i.e. pitivi, since it's a default app now)
<humphreybc> yeah i know
<humphreybc> that's what i'm planning on working on
<IlyaHaykinson_> some apps need better directions (chrome is supposedly in the software center now)
<IlyaHaykinson_> and, i think more importantly, need to align some of this with use cases
<IlyaHaykinson_> rather than just being a list of things
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> so like examples of why people might want to use these apps?
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm...
 * IlyaHaykinson_ is looking at the chapter and thinking...
<IlyaHaykinson_> i'm kind of thinking out loud here, so bear with me.
<IlyaHaykinson_> why do people install new software?
<IlyaHaykinson_> they are either 1) looking to use an alternative to something they already have
<IlyaHaykinson_> 2) trying to do something they cannot do (very well or at all) with existing software
<IlyaHaykinson_> 3) doing it for fun or learning
<IlyaHaykinson_> so maybe we can organize it kind of like that.... first, have a few alternatives
<IlyaHaykinson_> so have an alternative web browser, an alternative office suite, an alternative IM client, an alternative mail client
<IlyaHaykinson_> (chrome/chromium, abiword(?), pidgin, thunderbird would be my suggestions here)
<IlyaHaykinson_> and either list a few other alternatives with no detail, for each category, or point the reader towards some web reource
<IlyaHaykinson_> then, list a few other things to do with Ubuntu. things like audio editing make sense (though is Jokosher really the most popular one? i thought Audacity is...)
<IlyaHaykinson_> i would basically look through the web sites whcih aggregate software center applications
<IlyaHaykinson_> and look for some popular categories of things people do with Ubuntu / Linux
<IlyaHaykinson_> and then i would also list a few popular linux games, maybe.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i don't really know anything about those...
<IlyaHaykinson_> (for the first category -- replacement apps -- VLC also works well in this group)
<IlyaHaykinson_> or, we can think of it this way:
<IlyaHaykinson_> 1) How to use different applications to do the same thing 2) How to do other things with Ubuntu, 3) How to become a more advanced user
<IlyaHaykinson_> where 1) and 2) are basically what i was describing before
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: I'm still here, reading, just going to grab some stuff from the dairy, back in 5 then i'll have a chat about it with you
<IlyaHaykinson_> and 3) is for thigns like Gnome Do, and Wine, and Virtualbox
<thorwil> IlyaHaykinson_: good thinking.
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: going to Willowbank?
 * IlyaHaykinson_ is proud of his mad google stalking skillzz.
<thorwil> IlyaHaykinson_: i'd think Jokosher is rather at the fringe, Audacity is widely known, even in Windows-land
<ubuntujenkins>  IlyaHaykinson I shall get started on what I can. I did a clean install the other day an empathy wasn't there has it been removed as a default ap?
<IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: hm, wait, really??
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm. i last did a full install with alpha 2, i think
<IlyaHaykinson_> and it was definitely there then
<ubuntujenkins> yes it wasn't there I did a clean install about 3 days ago
<IlyaHaykinson_> i know they added gwibber
<IlyaHaykinson_> but not at the expense of empathy, i think. it was a whole big thing when they went from pidgin to empathy in 9.10, so i would doubt they'd get rid of it right away
<IlyaHaykinson_> especially when empathy is actually under rather active development by the gnome ppl
<ubuntujenkins> there was a bug which ment the ubuntu image was larger than a cd, they could have missed it out as a tempoary thing
<IlyaHaykinson_> must be a bug: http://www.starryhope.com/linux/ubuntu/2010/4-cool-new-features-in-ubuntu-lucid-lynx-alpha-3/
<IlyaHaykinson_> person says that empathy now (i.e. alpha 3) includes facebook chat
<IlyaHaykinson_> so certainly must be a bug.
 * ubuntujenkins remebers to write about facebook chat
<IlyaHaykinson_> OOH! that same article says iphone / ipod touch work with rhythmbox now.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i will need to find a way to test that out. i remember in 9.04 days i tried to get my sister's iphone to work with ANYTHIGN in Ubuntu, and failed
<IlyaHaykinson_> had to switch her machine to Windows 7 beta
<ubuntujenkins> thats a move in the right direction
<IlyaHaykinson_> thorwil: re Audacity / Jokosher, ok, glad that i'm not the only one
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: scary... yes just come back with a bag of chips, two bags of lollies and a block of chocolate. :) give me a couple of minutes to read what i missed
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: just wait until satellites offer live video. then it'll be --really-- freaky.
<humphreybc> jokosher is more user friendly and garageband like than audacity, that's why i chose it
<humphreybc> i don't know anything about linux games either, other than googling "top ten linux games"
<ubuntujenkins> ianto I have been asked to help with chapter 4, I knoticed you authored a part which parts are you writing?
 * IlyaHaykinson_ had to look up what "lollies" were. apparently it's an AU / NZ term
<humphreybc> i think we do need a section on Wine, at least describing what it is and where they can get more help
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: sure, Wine could definitely fit into the "how to become a more advanced user" type of a section
<IlyaHaykinson_> wine on its own is easy
<humphreybc> pidgin > empathy
<IlyaHaykinson_> but _troubleshooting_ wine requires a bit of black magic
<IlyaHaykinson_> that is definitely beyond the grasp of beginners
<humphreybc> lollies = candy :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> so we'd want to put that, as well as virtual machines, behind some sort of a "here's how you grow to be an advanced user" type of a section
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: nod. after looking it up, now i know!
<humphreybc> okay, so, i like your three section idea
<IlyaHaykinson_> and re pidgin > empathy, i completely agree. but, alas, empathy does D-Bus
<humphreybc> the second 3 section idea
<humphreybc> but we need to rephrase the three sections
<humphreybc> D-Bus?
<IlyaHaykinson_> yes, please don't treat my section names as gospel. they were just off the top of my head
<humphreybc> so "Alternatives to default apps"
<ubuntujenkins> I think mention wine in about five to ten line, ie this is wine you can use it to.........   to find out more google wine....
<humphreybc> haha, yeah i know :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> D-Bus is the (new) way for parts of the user interface to share data
<IlyaHaykinson_> so for example, Evolution tells the notifier application that there's new email using D-Bus
<IlyaHaykinson_> anyone else can listen to the same message, in theory, and react in their own way.
<humphreybc> "Extra specialized applications" for section 2
<IlyaHaykinson_> Empathy speaks to D-Bus when there are new IMs
<humphreybc> and maybe "Advanced applications" or something
<IlyaHaykinson_> and new multimedia messages etc
<IlyaHaykinson_> so it integrates really well with the gnome desktop
<IlyaHaykinson_> not just now, but moving forward
<humphreybc> but to be honest, those three titles are fairly blurred
<IlyaHaykinson_> whereas the Pidgin folks didn't want to go in that direction (for some reason.... nto sure on the details)
<IlyaHaykinson_> so, Empathy won out. let's hope it gets developed rapidly.
 * humphreybc gummy sharks nom nom
<humphreybc> Ahh, TommyBrunn, have a look at /website/wolter-remake
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: what about "Finding alternatives to default applications", an "Extending Ubuntu"?
<humphreybc> wolter has used asciidoc to create HTML files for the site... not sure why, but he seemed to think it was the cool thing to do
<IlyaHaykinson_> with Extending... being the 2 and 3 together
<humphreybc> yeah combining 2 and 3 is good
<humphreybc> do we need the "Finding"?
<humphreybc> just "Alternatives to default applications" could work?
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, i like having titles that contain a verb in gerund form.
<humphreybc> but hang on
<IlyaHaykinson_> otherwise it has no verb at all.
<humphreybc> we've already given them the means to find alternative apps by explaining the software store
<humphreybc> so what we're *really* doing is recommending some *good* apps
<IlyaHaykinson_> true.
<IlyaHaykinson_> good point
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, your title (no "Finding") is fine.
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> but even then, we need to explain that these are recommendations based on... what?
<humphreybc> sort of like "Chef's choice" in a restaurant...
<humphreybc> we've just taken a few apps that *we* have decided
 * humphreybc realizes that if he is ever going to get round to watching the movie that he's had for a few days, he'd have to do it now
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, if you remember my talk/slides, and the style guide, it's ok for us to be slightly opinionated.
<humphreybc> yep
<IlyaHaykinson_> i would err on the side of most commonly used alternatives
<humphreybc> yeah
<IlyaHaykinson_> and/or the most mature / complete alternatives
<humphreybc> that's a better way of putting it
<IlyaHaykinson_> those should generally overlap
<IlyaHaykinson_> and also we don't need to be exclusive
<humphreybc> okay, so, list of alternatives
<humphreybc> firstly, what are the main default apps people want alternatives for?
<IlyaHaykinson_> we can do a paragraph on Chrome, but then list (one word each) the next three popular web browsers (i dunno... epiphany, konqueror, elinks???)
<humphreybc> me personally, firefox, pidgin, GIMP, F-Spot
<IlyaHaykinson_> GIMP is standard, is it not?
<IlyaHaykinson_> oh.
<humphreybc> oh wait
<IlyaHaykinson_> you mean alternatives
<humphreybc> it's not anymore
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> so to get a list of alternatives, we have to start off with a list of stuff they're replacing
<IlyaHaykinson_> GIMP isn't? hmm. it was in alpha 1 at least, possibly alpha 2
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah, you are right.
<humphreybc> so on my fresh install i remove F-Spot, empathy and install chrome, digiKam and pidgin
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, gimp isn't really an alternative.
<ubuntujenkins> gimp isn't in lucid
<IlyaHaykinson_> it's more an add on (i.e. for "extending")
<humphreybc> yeah, gimp would come under the second bit
<humphreybc> the extension bit
 * humphreybc ahh, the sweet smell of progress
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, so firefox -> chrome (+konqueror, epiphany)
<humphreybc> well, opera?
<IlyaHaykinson_> opera isn't open source. i'd leave this at open source apps for now
<humphreybc> midori?
<IlyaHaykinson_> flock?
<humphreybc> teminal?
<IlyaHaykinson_> we can check what the most popular linux browsers are.
<humphreybc> terminal ftw
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/k4qQtQHrDz
<IlyaHaykinson_> hang on, i'll check on my work's google analytics
<humphreybc> let's move this to a pad :)
 * humphreybc has finished one bag of lollies
<thorwil> vish: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/hgBlhqyoMH
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, gnite folks.
<ubuntujenkins> night
<vish> thorwil: those are the list of icons required , right?
<thorwil> vish: i'm not sure if Ben had only that level in mind, but one level deeper would be too many
<vish> yeah..
<vish> i'll collect the icons e already have and add it to the branch
<vish> s/e/the
<thorwil> vish: so i added lists for what's all in each chapter as # comments
<vish> argh! e=we
<thorwil> vish: and finally the few ideas i have
<thorwil> vish: Default Applications, Troubleshooting and Learning_more make me wonder if we should really do it at all
 * vish nods
<vish> hmm , whats wrong with bzr :/
<godbyk> thorwil, vish: for the installation chapter: do most people know what a hard drive looks like?  might be better of going with a CD (as in the install CD) instead.
<vish> that would work too
<thorwil> perhaps
<vish> godbyk: whats wrong with bzr?  it doesnt allow me to pull
<godbyk> vish: lemme try.
<vish> keeps saying some crap about my unprotected key file :/
<thorwil> godbyk: the "harddrive" would be just a box in that icon style, anyway
<vish> why does it care :/
<godbyk> vish: it's working for me.
<godbyk> vish: ah, make sure the permissions of your .ssh/id_rsa file are 644.
<godbyk> er, sorry, 600.
<vish> hmm , is this something new?
<godbyk> vish: I think ssh complains if the permissions are other.
<godbyk> Not sure if that's what the actual problem is or not.
<godbyk> Just taking a shot in the dark.
<vish> worked so long with the same perms
<thorwil> vish: you are not protecting your key file? do you not think about how it must feel, neglected and without cover?
<vish> bleh ;p
<godbyk> lol
 * thorwil -> coffee
<godbyk> vish: The ~/.ssh dir should be 700, also.
<vish> funny thing is it worked so long  , not sure if the file permissions changed or bzr changed
<godbyk> did that fix it?
<vish> i havent tried yet , will be doing it in a sec
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> thorwil: Have you done anything more with the cover page or are we still waiting on some big announcement from Ubuntu?
<godbyk> (just curious, not pressuring!) :-)
<vish> godbyk: is there a way to read the file permissions as numbers rather than using ls -l ?
<godbyk> vish: I don't know of one, but it wouldn't surprise me if it existed.
<godbyk> the .ssh dir should be rwx------
<godbyk> the .ssh/id_rsa file should be rw-------
<vish> yeah , right now it is 644 , need to change that
<godbyk> vish: chmod 700 ~/.ssh; chmod 600 ~/.ssh/id_rsa
<vish> yup just did that
<vish> hmm , now it works
<vish> i mean bzr works now.. but i hadnt changed the file permissions  , wonder what did that
<vish> the directory was having the right permissions already , but not sure how the key file permissions got changed..
<godbyk> vish: good question!
<vish> there is a bug in gnome-keyring , maybe it is related
<vish> lucid got a gnome-keyring update , that is causing a lot of havoc.. but thats a long shot
<vish> nope , not it , the update predates my last bzr interaction
<godbyk> I just updated http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ for anyone who cares.
<thorwil> godbyk: no, yes
<godbyk> thorwil: heh. understood.
<BlessJah> hi, i'm currently translating ubuntu manual
<BlessJah> \providecommand{\polang}{en} what should be translated here?
<BlessJah> should I translate last part? {en} to {pl}?
<godbyk> BlessJah: Nope, you should leave that line as-is.
<BlessJah> what does this line means?
<godbyk> BlessJah: The \providecommand line?  It means: "if the \polang command hasn't already been define, define is to mean 'en'."
<godbyk> When you run 'make ubuntu-manual-pl.pdf', it sets '\def\polang{pl}'.
<godbyk> then \polang is passed in as \documentclass[lang=\polang]{ubuntu-manual}
<BlessJah> ok, so it shouldn't be changed into {pl}
<godbyk> so it's telling the manual what language is being compiled.
<godbyk> BlessJah: The \providecommand line is just setting 'en' as the default language if a language hasn't already been set.
<godbyk> BlessJah: But the language is being set in the Makefile.
<BlessJah> ok
<BlessJah> thx
<godbyk> So you can leave the \providecommand line alone.  It doesn't need to be changed.
<godbyk> BlessJah: no problem. :)
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: ping
<komsas> godbyk: if I wrote in translation dash, it is better to change it to /dash?
<komsas> he, my ping killed him. :)
<komsas> dutchie: do you know something about this?
<dutchie> if you are translating \dash{text}, put \dash{translated text}
<komsas> no, there no dash in english line, but in our translation is
<komsas> what to do in this position?
<dutchie> oh, so your language has a dash where there is not one in the English?
<komsas> yes
 * dutchie is unsure
<komsas> it is problem?
 * dutchie is not really in ubuntu-manual mode atm
<dutchie> just put \dash for now, godbyk will complain if it's wrong
<komsas> oh dutchie, sorry I did read your question right
<komsas> we have same dash
<humphreybc> you don't want to translate the command, but the text inside the command (the braces)
<dutchie> could you show us the text you are translating?
<dutchie> it should give a file reference iirc
<komsas> but I'm asking if there no dash in english string and I use dash like "-" in lithuanian translation, it is better to use latex command or I can use "-"
<dutchie> just use your initiative for now
<dutchie> ask godbyk when he's back
<komsas> ok dutchie , thanks u
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: ping
 * humphreybc is meeting up with Launchpad's release manager for coffee this afternoon
 * dutchie thinks that writing a python program to do his physics homework was overkill
 * humphreybc thinks that if dutchie likes python so much mebbe he should help with quickshot
<humphreybc> :P
<dutchie> :P
<dutchie> I have been providing ubuntujenkins with hints
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> and I have a copy of the branch
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> i'm fearing for the screenshots now
<dutchie> I never really got round to working out how quickly works properly
<humphreybc> me neither, all i use is quickly run and quickly glade :D
 * dutchie is busy using E = mcÂ² for now
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> dutchie, fire stuff at me for a to do list
<humphreybc> for the project
<humphreybc> like, detailed stuff
<humphreybc> not "complete chapter 10"
<humphreybc> and not just for me
<humphreybc> i'm putting it on the wiki
<humphreybc> in response to comment from Chris Lees, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/omg-ubuntu-manual-project-gets-website.html
<dutchie> oh god
<dutchie> more publicity
<humphreybc> more publicity, yes
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> also there's a quickshot post going up soon too
<dutchie> btw, ubuntu-manual.org is full of fail on IE7
<dutchie> not sure if we should care
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac
<humphreybc> really?
<humphreybc> screenshot please?
<dutchie> don't have a windows box handy now
<dutchie> hmm, everything works fine up to the point where I convert from J to MeV
<humphreybc> me neither
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> ill ask my flatmate if he's around
<dutchie> ah, I had the charge on an electron as 1.6e-29
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc and dutchie I am just finishing a group meeting I will talk in ten mins when I  get home if thats ok
<dutchie> silly me
<ubuntujenkins> see you in the?
<ubuntujenkins> *ten
<humphreybc> sure
<komsas> godbyk: If I want to use dash in translation, but there is no dash in english line, it is better to use latex code /dash or I can use "-" ?
<humphreybc> hi Red_HamsterX :)
<Red_HamsterX> Hi.
<Red_HamsterX> So, as shadwick was asking, what do you need help with?
<Red_HamsterX> Aside from grabbing screencaps.
<humphreybc> so, basically the manual project is to create a fully fledged, community based, up to date beginners manual with 200 pages, 50 screenshots or so and 40+ languages
<humphreybc> well practically everything - we've only got one python developer working on it, TommyBrunn
<humphreybc> and ubuntujenkins is working on it too
<humphreybc> i'm trying my best to help with the UI
<humphreybc> but the main problem we have is time
<shadwick> hello
<humphreybc> because the manual needs to be ready for Lucid, we need the screenshots before the 20th April
<humphreybc> getting 2000 consistent screenshots in 40+ languages is a hard undertaking
<humphreybc> so i came up with the idea for quickshot
<humphreybc> which automates a lot of the process
<ubuntujenkins> back again
<shadwick> I think it's a great idea
<humphreybc> we also need the default ubuntu theme for Lucid, so it creates a new user etc
 * ubuntujenkins checks logs
<humphreybc> shadwick: thanks. we're hoping to make it flexible enough so that other documentation projects can use it too.
<Red_HamsterX> I shouldn't have any trouble dedicating a system for the beta releases.
<Red_HamsterX> And I'm not bad with Python (projects at uguu.ca).
<TommyBrunn> Red_HamsterX: Even if you don't have a spare system, you could probably do it in a virtual machine.
<humphreybc> but at the moment we're in a bit of trouble because a) I came up with the idea too late (my fault) and b) we've only got two people working on it actively, it's proving more complicated than anticipated
<humphreybc> our project has a huge emphasis on simplicity
<Red_HamsterX> But I'm very short on time.
<ubuntujenkins> right well I can say I need serious help :-0
<Red_HamsterX> That's what I meant TommyBrunn.
<Red_HamsterX> +comma
<humphreybc> we want to make it as easy as possible for contributors to help with UMP, so we have a tonne of stuff in place to make it easy for them to help out. That's what we want to do with Quickshot, make it so anyone can use it
<Red_HamsterX> What do you need the most help with, Python-wise, TommyBrunn, ubuntujenkins?
<humphreybc> we'd like it ready for the Ubuntu Global Jam so we can get hundreds of people screenshotting
<godbyk> komsas: Use \dash.
 * ubuntujenkins has spent 3.5 hours staring at a ~1000 cell spreedsheet
 * komsas going to change translation..
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX, shadwick, how much do you guys know about bzr and launchpad?
<TommyBrunn> Currently we pretty much need help with everything. The first thing that springs to mind though, is a way to parse the screenshots branch and somehow serialize the information for each screenshot.
<ubuntujenkins> so that I can add the screen res detect to main I really need a timer mecahnism
<Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, I'm a bit weak on bzr, though I'm very familiar with svn.
<ubuntujenkins> I am looking at the bzr lark
<TommyBrunn> See, every screenshot will have some sort of information on what should be in it, what language it should be in, etc.
<humphreybc> i'm meeting up with the release manager for launchpad today for coffee
<Red_HamsterX> I was working with the Ubuntu documentation team in preparation for 5.04, so Launchpad's mostly familiar.
<Red_HamsterX> Though it's changed a fair bit since then.
<TommyBrunn> We need to somehow format that in a consistent manner, so that it can be read by Quickshot.
<ubuntujenkins> there are branches for each language here https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots?field.lifecycle=ALL
<humphreybc> to discuss the best way to work with the data on launchpad. he has suggested https://launchpad.net/tarmac
<ubuntujenkins> I have written a script to merge them to main. I will look at tarmac tomorrow
<humphreybc> of course we want consistency across all of our translated manuals and within the manuals themselves - which means that stuff like dpi, resolution, theme etc have to be pre-determined and set correctly
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: oh nice you've done some of the languages :D
<ubuntujenkins> you have to change the status to any status the merging means they change status to merged but they still work
<ubuntujenkins> if they add any more languages :P
<TommyBrunn> Anyway, I need to be off to bed now. I'm sick as a dog, and so I need all the rest I can get. Hopefully I can be of more help once I get better. If there are any questions that ubuntujenkins or humphreybc can't answer, feel free to email them to me at tommy.brunn@gmail.com
<humphreybc> yep, and also email me at humphreybc@gmail.com or catch me on google talk - it goes to my cellphone and i'll reply pretty much immediately unless i'm asleep
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX I could really do with some help with one last bit on the screen resolution stuff then it can go into main for testing
<shadwick> well as cool as this project is, I don't think I'll be able to help out
<shadwick> best of luck though
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, just point me at the code and leave a "todo" block of comments and I'll see what I can hack out. I'm in UTC-7.
<ubuntujenkins> I will give you an explination and add TODOs in a moment, my branch is untidy as I use it for experiments.
<Red_HamsterX> I'll do my best to mirror your style.
<ubuntujenkins> thats sounds good though.
<ubuntujenkins> it fine I will add all of the screen res change to a seperatef ile for main
<ubuntujenkins> I am just changing permissons for my branch
<Red_HamsterX> (I'll likely be unable to do much today, though. I won't be home 'til late and I need to be up early tomorrow. I'll look over the code and make note of what I already know how to do, though)
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: if you want to just hang out in here and we can chat about quickshot stuff. i have to update the wiki at some point too
<humphreybc> sweet
<ubuntujenkins> are you on the quickshot devs team? Red...
<humphreybc> so, our target completion date is the 18th March for a working version, 31st March for a stable version
<humphreybc> I know that's less than 3 weeks away
<humphreybc> we have a plan B if quickshot isn't ready
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: what's your lp username and i'll add you to the quickshot devs
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: should we make it an open team
<humphreybc> ?
<Red_HamsterX> I figured I'd just give you patches like with most other projects.
<ubuntujenkins> erm can we add more people who can approve members?
<humphreybc> yeah i'll make you an admin
<humphreybc> and Tommy
<ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster my e-mail is ubuntujenkins@googlemail.com
<ubuntujenkins> cheers ben
<Red_HamsterX> https://edge.launchpad.net/~red-hamsterx
<ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot is my branch I will make some changes before I go to bed
<Red_HamsterX> You should be able to get what you need from that.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm on Google Talk at red.hamsterx@gmail.com.
<humphreybc> what's your real name for my contacts list?
<Red_HamsterX> Neil Tallim; it's what I broadcast anyway.
<humphreybc> sweet
 * humphreybc needs to have lunch soon
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: I'm +13 btw
<humphreybc> NZ
<dutchie> \o/
<Red_HamsterX> That explains why you said 'lunch' and not 'sleep'.
<ubuntujenkins> when the user clicks the button to change their resolution a new window pops up. In this window there is a button that has to be  to clicked with in  seconds or they are logged out. The 15 seconds deley doesn't exist I know the loog out command
<dutchie> http://media.joshh.co.uk/graph.png produced using 75 lines of Python
<ubuntujenkins> @ Red_HamsterX
<manualbot> ubuntujenkins: Error: "Red_HamsterX" is not a valid command.
<Red_HamsterX> Lawl, bot.
 * ubuntujenkins is tired
<dutchie> don't be mean to manualbot
<ubuntujenkins> I will point out I have all most no python skills at all. with help from dutchie #python and #ubuntu-app-devel is how I have got stuff this far
<humphreybc> i'm taking a python paper but only just started, so i'm fairly useless too
<ubuntujenkins> I had done a little past hello world about 2 years ago and now I am trying to help on a program
<dutchie> humphreybc: there are other Ubuntu people in NZ?
<dutchie> wow
<Red_HamsterX> I contribute patches against the issue-tracker when I can, so I can probably help compensate.
<humphreybc> dutchie, yes there are! even one or two canonical employees
<humphreybc> mpt is from NZ :)
<dutchie> yeah, but he's in a proper country now
<dutchie> :P
<ubuntujenkins> I am adding coments to my branch now
<humphreybc> dutchie: ..
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: added you as a member of Quickshot devs
<Red_HamsterX> Who's mpt?
<humphreybc> also, guys, just a heads up - there's a post going up on omgubuntu.co.uk very soon about quickshot and asking for help with the python - so if we get an influx of people wanting to help, that's where they're from :)
<Red_HamsterX> Wow. Dev access after fifteen minutes. That's a first.
<Red_HamsterX> What if I'm, like, totally malicious?
<humphreybc> we trust you :)
<humphreybc> (btw our project is a bit weird because i'm in charge)
<humphreybc> :)
<Red_HamsterX> Weird's good.
<humphreybc> mpt is one of the lead Ubuntu UI designers for Canonical
<dutchie> he's head of the User Interaction team iirc
<Red_HamsterX> Ah. Then I have not spoken with him.
<humphreybc> yeah, good guy
<dutchie> I have attended a talk by him
<humphreybc> dutchie: UDS-M is in brussels, feel like making a trip there?
<humphreybc> also, Red_HamsterX, ubuntujenkins, look into: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac
<dutchie> not espaecially if I have to pay
<ubuntujenkins> on my to do list already
<dutchie> I was going to have a vague look at dates and things
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F << to do list
<humphreybc> (for new contributors, will go on the wiki)
<humphreybc> Luke, can you add some quickshot stuff for our new python peeps?
<humphreybc> godbyk: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<ubuntujenkins> I will try to my list is getting longer by the day I am also wrting more for other chapters as well
<ubuntujenkins> bit like your ben :-)
<dutchie> email me a list of things you need doing, and I may investigate
<humphreybc> heh
<dutchie> but it is now bedtime
<humphreybc> i'm spending so much time talking to people nowadays
<Red_HamsterX> You are.
<Red_HamsterX> Ooh. A real-time notepad. Neat.
<dutchie> it has also been called "Multiplayer notepad"
 * Red_HamsterX waits for Launchpad to finish its GPG propagation stuff.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Is what's-his-name going to be doing our site or what's the story there. Looks like Wolter's been busy hacking on it. No sense having two people running in different directions.
<godbyk> (I haven't looked at Wolter's site yet.)
<humphreybc> haven't heard from brett alton yet
<humphreybc> so for now it's wolter
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> should I switch the test site to wolter's dir sometime?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX I have updated my branch please don't merge it with main as there is some trickry going on in it that will be messed up. There is a TODO in line 223
<ubuntujenkins> thanks :-)
<humphreybc> godbyk, maybe in a couple of days
<humphreybc> yeah so i don't know if you guys caught it
<humphreybc> but on the 26th March there will be a post on omgubuntu asking readers to download the latest revision (it'll just be attached to the post) and crawl over it for spelling mistakes, grammar etc
<humphreybc> they'll be directed to bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> so about that time we'll have hundreds of bugs coming in :)
<ubuntujenkins> yey :P
<humphreybc> it gives us 5 (five!) days to fix all the bugs before writing freeze on the 31st
<ubuntujenkins> woo!
<godbyk> won't that be fun!
<ubuntujenkins> I know
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> oh and python devs, every time i talk to jono he asks me to contribute snippets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PythonSnippets
<humphreybc> i told him once we have some solid code to submit, we will
<humphreybc> just something else to keep in mind
<ubuntujenkins> Think looking at the list we need more people to help
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: more people to help with what?
<ubuntujenkins> the massive list on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<humphreybc> we always need more people :D
<humphreybc> okay we need authors for chapter 6
<ubuntujenkins> shotgun not
<humphreybc> lol
<ubuntujenkins> I have just facebooked a mate to try and get him to help
<humphreybc> groovy
 * ubuntujenkins looks at tarmac
<godbyk> do we think that the quickshot stuff will be ready in time?  how much will it script things and how much will rely on the user?
<humphreybc> godbyk: probably not going to be ready in time unless we get another 2 python coders at least
<godbyk> it'd take more developer time (but would help with consistency and take less user time) if the screenshots were taken programmatically.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> that's the aim
<godbyk> e.g., it knows how to run program X, runs it, gets it to the proper state and position on the screen and takes the screenshot all on its own.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know if tramac turns out allright and the taking screenshots is done then we might get it done
<humphreybc> okay so, what chapters are actually _completed_
<humphreybc> ?
<godbyk> normally, I'd jump on board and try to help out more with quickshot but I have my hands full at the moment. :)
<godbyk> don't we have editors assigned to each chapter? maybe they should run through and sign off on their chapters.
<humphreybc> godbyk: that's fine, the latex is more important
<ubuntujenkins> kklimonda you wanted to help with quickshot, please  remind what skills have you got?
<humphreybc> yep we need to find jamin
<godbyk> make a list of what sections are unfinished and give a status report.
<kklimonda> ubuntujenkins: I can handle both Python and C
<ubuntujenkins> sory it too so long to get back to you but I now know where we are at again
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn are you still up?
<humphreybc> nah he's gone to sleep
<cmmtessier> Just joined on to help - don't mind to do some editing - where should I begin chapter1?
<ubuntujenkins> kklimonda have a look at bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot please and line 233 it in a mess I will tidy it up. between you and Red_HamsterX could get that functionality working that would be good
<ubuntujenkins> guys do quickly run to run it and do quickly run -r to remove the user
<humphreybc> okay, so i'm meeting with Tim in about 2 hours, give me stuff to ask him
<ubuntujenkins> who is he again?
<humphreybc> Launchpad release manager
<humphreybc> works for canonical
<humphreybc> works on bzr and launchpad
<humphreybc> i'm actually physically meeting up with him for coffee
<semioticrobotic> ta da
<humphreybc> cmmtessier: basically anything you can see that needs work
<humphreybc> hi semioticrobotic!
<humphreybc> cmmtessier: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<epkugelmass> I propose putting that in the topic
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> just about to do that :)
<ubuntujenkins> basically we could do with the authentication thing sorted. I am tinkering with tarmac I am wondering how http://doctormo.ubuntu-ma.us/2010/03/01/launchpad-moving-to-closed-source-auth/ that effects us
<epkugelmass> ok =]
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ | TODO LIST: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<humphreybc> anyone know how to make text red on a wiki?
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc what i really need to know is how to add an ssh key to launchpad through commands at a VERY quick glance tarmac deals with https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib
<ubuntujenkins> no I am afraid not
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: okay i'll ask him about how we can do stuff like that
<ubuntujenkins> thnaks I am off to bed night
<humphreybc> night
 * humphreybc is off to make some lunch
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc please ask does authorizing an app through https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib (OAuth) allow bzr branch pushes
<humphreybc> kk
 * ubuntujenkins is really of to bed now
<humphreybc> i suggest everyone bookmarks the etherpad
<ubuntujenkins> thanks night all
<godbyk> humphreybc: When you do the omg editors thing, you should establish a standard format for the bug reporting so that it's easy to see what's been reported already (so we don't have to triage a bunch of duplicates).
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> will d
<humphreybc> do*
<humphreybc> stuff like page number, revision number, all that sort of stuff.
<godbyk> The bug's subject line should be like 'ch X, p Y, "words that are wrong" -> "words that are right"
<godbyk> or something like that.
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> hopefully they'll all be on the same PDF
<godbyk> that way the page numbers are the same throughout.
<semioticrobotic> which version of the manual are we giving to omg?  Beta?  RC?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I like the google analytics report for the new site.. goes from 0 to 122 visitors in a single day.
<Red_HamsterX> There. Launchpad stuff taken care of and code of conduct signed. Yay.
<humphreybc> hehe
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Probably the latest of whatever we've got at the time.
<humphreybc> well it's on Planet Ubuntu and omgubuntu
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-03
<humphreybc> holy mackeral
<humphreybc> we have 361 fans on facebook...
<godbyk> cool
<semioticrobotic> life's tough when you're famous
<humphreybc> 13 days ago we had 169...
<humphreybc> that's nuts
<humphreybc> http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Ubuntu-Manual/266794861575?ref=ts
<humphreybc> guys check the top of the pad
<humphreybc> i'm making a top 5 list
<humphreybc> have a look, tell me what you think
<humphreybc> and when Ilya comes in, let him know about this pad
<Red_HamsterX> Having trouble thinking of a fifth point?
<kklimonda> humphreybc: any reason why quickshot doesn't use GtkAssistant to set up everything? time constraint?
<Red_HamsterX> Mmm... LaTeX...
<Red_HamsterX> Good choice.
<humphreybc> kklimonda: no idea, i started it with quickly
<humphreybc> because that seemed easiest from what i was told
<godbyk> humphreybc: re: translators. if they're translating to a new language have them email me to give me a heads-up.
<kklimonda> humphreybc: I was thinking about using GtkAssistant widget to display all pages of the setup phase (i.e. user creation etc.)
<semioticrobotic> top five list is looking good, benjamin
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: you're bryan, right?
<semioticrobotic> yep ... it's me
<humphreybc> kklimonda: okay, sounds good - you'll have to chat to TommyBrunn or Luke Jennings to sort it out. I'll put their email addresses up on the to do list
<semioticrobotic> okay folks ... gotta get my lectures ready for tomorrow's classes
<semioticrobotic> I'll check the pad in a day or two for an update on progress
<humphreybc> sweet as
<Red_HamsterX> Okay, I won't be able to get anything done tonight, but I'll dive right into the code tomorrow, at the first chance I get.
<humphreybc> hi guys, i'm back
<humphreybc> had coffee with Tim, Launchad/bzr release manager
<humphreybc> he suggested a pretty cool way to do this quickshot thing and he's going to help with the launchpad side of stuff
<Red_HamsterX> How many Canonical employees did you say there were in .nz again?
<Red_HamsterX> Also, what's his idea? I'm just starting to look at the code now.
<Red_HamsterX> (I got home an hour ago)
<Red_HamsterX> I probably should have line-broken that.
<humphreybc> um i think there are 2 or 3
<humphreybc> do you have skype?
<humphreybc> (easier to explain over skype)
<Red_HamsterX> I do not. Something about a non-free protocol and me coming from the Debian world. :(
<Red_HamsterX> So the code, at this stage, is basically "display about"?
<humphreybc> okay, that's all good
<humphreybc> basically Tim thinks we should create a new user on Launchpad for Quickshot
<humphreybc> upload an SSH key for that user
<humphreybc> then attach the SSH key to Quickshot
<humphreybc> so everyone who uses Quickshot acts as "that user"
<Red_HamsterX> And then share the private key with the users on all test systems?
<humphreybc> and they'd have full write access to the branch
<humphreybc> no we'd keep it private
<humphreybc> i guess
<Red_HamsterX> How would they push changes, then?
<humphreybc> it's attached to quickshot
<humphreybc> so quickshot *is* the user
<humphreybc> and the "quickshot launchpad user" owns the branch(es)
<humphreybc> so anyone with quickshot can push
<humphreybc> ie, write to the branch
<humphreybc> he then suggests that when someone is pushing we lock the branch until they're done - bzr automatically will wait until the branch becomes available to push - we can just display a message saying that someone else is pushing and it won't take long
<Red_HamsterX> No, I get that... but a private key is needed for the commit, unless I'm missing something about how Launchpad/BZR commits work.
<humphreybc> well i'm not sure of that detail, but he is the release manager for bzr/launchpad so it all comes under his domain
<humphreybc> i can talk to him to clarify stuff like that
<humphreybc> he says he'll do as much as he can to iron out any kinks on the launchpad end to make it easier for us
<Red_HamsterX> It's a pretty trivial detail in any case. If the ey gets compromised, the worst that can happen is that a rollback is needed.
<Red_HamsterX> key*
<humphreybc> yeah, exactly
<humphreybc> as for having multiple branches or not, it really depends how big each image will be
<humphreybc> if each image is >100kb then multiply that by 50 then by 47
<Red_HamsterX> We could do a quick test with PIL and indexed PNGs.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i suggest that we stay with branches for each language
<Red_HamsterX> (To see if they're usable when indexed)
<humphreybc> because it's already half set up
<humphreybc> and we can just set the quickshot user as the owner for the project - ie, the owner for the branches
<humphreybc> he also mentioned to use bzrlib
<humphreybc> and to talk to lifeless, who is the canonical employee who is the main developer for bzr
<humphreybc> so i'll see if i can grab him
<Red_HamsterX> bzrlib looks pretty well-documented... I could probably have that running in a couple of hours this weekend.
<Red_HamsterX> Though it probably shouldn't be a high priority... I mean, once everything else is done, it's just a matter of running the command fifty times, distributed amongst multiple users, and it's not hard to type it out.
<Red_HamsterX> It would be nice to have it ready in preparation for 10.10, though.
<humphreybc> well, we were aiming for 10.04 .... :)
<humphreybc> (yes our project is crazy)
<Red_HamsterX> I don't think it's unachievable.
<humphreybc> just tough, right?
<Red_HamsterX> I can hack code pretty fast.
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> i'll grab thumper to see if he can come in here and chat to you
<Red_HamsterX> I'll do my best to please you this weekend.
<Red_HamsterX> So is the plan, post-grabbing-of-screenshots, to apply a series of (top, left, width, height) values to each image to extract the relevant rectangles for automatic insertion into a translatable LaTeX document?
<humphreybc> ugh - i think so. Tommy's the one to talk to about that, and Luke - they know more about it than I.
<humphreybc> but they're conveniently asleep now :)
<humphreybc> http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.dev/developers/integration.html
<Red_HamsterX> I'll try to catch them earlier tomorrow, then.
<Red_HamsterX> Since I'd probably be able t help most by writing libraries while they focus on design.
<Red_HamsterX> Until I'm fully up to speed.
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> i'll ask thumper if he can join this channel too
<Red_HamsterX> I'll be going to sleep shortly, unfortunately.
<Red_HamsterX> I need to be up for 4:20 to make it to my place of workage.
<humphreybc> that's okay, i mean just for future
<humphreybc> crap!
<wolter> hi
<wolter> who is the creator of the ubuntu manual webpage/
<wolter> (report in if present)
<wolter> well, if you (creator) read this, email me at wolterh6@gmail.com
<humphreybc> hi Rudi!
<Rudi> hello humphreybc!
<humphreybc> so what would you say is your biggest skill?
<humphreybc> or what would you most like to do?
<humphreybc> if you take a look at this, it's a list of things that need to be done: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<Rudi> I'm not really sure, I looked at the blue prints and they all seemed to be going pretty well
<Rudi> I can do the screenshots, once the RC/beta is released
<Rudi> I can also edit
<humphreybc> well if you're confident in english and know about ubuntu, we really need help on two chapters
<Rudi> allrighty :)
<Rudi> which two?
<humphreybc> chapter 4 and 6 are the big ones that are lacking
<humphreybc> you know how to use bzr?
<humphreybc> on the etherpad, take a look under the heading "MANUAL"
<Rudi> ok...
<vish> godbyk: / humphreybc: what is the background color of the pdf? #000 or off white?
<Rudi> the part where i can see people writing at the moment?
<humphreybc> i thiink it's plain white but not sure
<humphreybc> actually it should be plain white
<vish> hmm..
<humphreybc> because it's to be printed, right?
<humphreybc> so we don't want to make them print full page off white
<humphreybc> :)
<vish> ;)  yeah , but still the pdf would have a background color , iirc
<vish> where is the pdf located , too many folders in the branch 0.o
<humphreybc> you have to build it :P
<vish> pff..
<humphreybc> run make
<humphreybc> it's very simple
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> do you not have latex?
<humphreybc> i'll make it for you, hold up one se
<humphreybc> sec*
<vish> i dont think so :(
<humphreybc> okay, give me two secs
<vish> ty
<Rudi> humphreybc, i have bzr installed and i'm ready to go :)
<humphreybc> cool, run "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual"
<Rudi> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<Rudi> lol
<Rudi> my bad
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> then you'll need to run the install script under /pkgs
<humphreybc> which install LaTeX 2009 I think
<humphreybc> it's a fairly big download, 2GB or so (sorry!)
<humphreybc> if you don't want to do that it's not the end of the world
<humphreybc> you can work on the chapters in the .tex files themselves in a program like gedit
<vish>  2GB for latex install! o.0 OMFG
<humphreybc> you just won't be able to compile it into a PDF to see what your work looks like, but you can push your new stuff and one of us can check it if you like. I recommend install latex anyway
<Rudi> I only have 3GB of bandwidth a month :O
<humphreybc> ah
<Rudi> bandwidth starved south africa...
<humphreybc> well, in that case, write your chapters in .text files in the correct directory
<Rudi> oki :)
<humphreybc> and one of us can take what you've written and convert it to tex files with commands and stuff
<humphreybc> :)
 * vish still waiting for pdf from humphreybc ;)
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> oops!
<humphreybc> i forgot for a sec, got distracted
<humphreybc> :P
<vish> ;)
<humphreybc> sry battery ran out
<vish> no probs , just push to bzr? /ubuntu-manual/graphics/ when you are free
 * vish bbl
<humphreybc> yep
<Rudi> humphreybc, i am now connected to the branch
<humphreybc> kk hold up one sec
<Rudi> had to add an ssh key to launchpad
<humphreybc> vish, pushing now, revision 383
<humphreybc> /graphics/main.pdf
<thorwil> good morning!
<humphreybc> morning!
<humphreybc> Rudi, cool, so you can see the files and stuff?
<ronald_> Hello, my name is Ronald an active member of the Ubuntu Zimbabwe LoCo team
<humphreybc> hi ronald!
<ronald_> I am available to invest time in writing chapters and proof reading the manual
<humphreybc> yay!
<humphreybc> have you got experience with bzr or latex?
<ronald_> unfortunately no, I am prepared to learn
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so, you'll need to do this: sudo apt-get install bzr
<ronald_> done
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> now, make a new directory in your home folder called "projects" or something
<humphreybc> then inside that folder, run "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual"
<humphreybc> you'll want to set up bzr too, use bzr whoami
<ronald_> with the quotes??
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help
<humphreybc> also check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/contributions
<ronald_> I will, its downloading something
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins, meet thumper :)
<thumper> ubuntujenkins: hi
<thumper> heh
<thumper> scared off already
<ubuntujenkins> hi thumper
<ubuntujenkins> sorry about that lucid has a very anoying enter key bug for me
<thumper> :)
<thorwil> godbyk: did you talk with Charlene already?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: thumper is the canonical project lead for launchpad/bzr integration
<ubuntujenkins> ooo nice
<humphreybc> i had coffee with him today and he has a cool idea for the quickshot bzr stuff
<thumper> I was thinking I should talk to lifeless before we charge down one track
<thumper> I have a feeling that the entire picture store could be done with a single branch
<thumper> without hitting the users too much
<ubuntujenkins> lifeless is a person right?
<thumper> ubuntujenkins: yep
<thumper> lifeless is a core bzr developer
<thumper> and a very smart guy
<ubuntujenkins> fair eonough, when I spoke to people in #bzr they said we can't do it untill nesting was implimented but it would be easyier if we could do it
<ubuntujenkins> what time zone is liffless in?
<ubuntujenkins> thumper did you have any other suggestions?
<thumper> ubuntujenkins: UTC+10
<thumper> I've just been thinking about the branch layout
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<thumper> there is nothing to say that a PGP _has_ to be private
<thumper> only that it _should_ be private
<thumper> or SSH key really
<vish> humphreybc: seems you pushed an empty commit >  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/revision/383  , the pdf isnt actually added
<thumper> by having a shared private key you open yourself up to potential abuse
<ubuntujenkins> sure I follow so far
<thumper> one thing that you'd want to do is to set append only on the branches
<thumper> that way if someone did try to remove stuff
<thumper> you can just revert their commits
<thumper> and you won't lose data
<ubuntujenkins> right i will look at that
<thumper> humphreybc: do this `bzr alias commit="commit --strict"`
<thumper> humphreybc: that way commit will fail if there are unknown files
<thumper> humphreybc: which happens when you forget to add
<humphreybc> i added a file though
<humphreybc> it *is* there
<humphreybc> i'll try again in a minute, hold up folks
<ubuntujenkins> thumper I am utc, I will just nip and have a show I have lectures in 20 mins
<ubuntujenkins> *shower
<thumper> ubuntujenkins: ETOOMUCHINFO
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<ronald_> humphreybc - I have followed your instructions, whats the next step?
<humphreybc> ronald_: sorry :)
<humphreybc> so you've pulled the branch?
<humphreybc> how much bandwidth do you get a month?
<humphreybc> ie, what's your internet plan like
<ubuntujenkins> back thumper
<ronald_> I am on a fiber network, bandwidth is not a challenge I work for an ISP, I have free Internet from 7 pm to 7 am
<humphreybc> yay!
<humphreybc> godbyk: piong
<humphreybc> ping, well, piong could work too i suppose
<ubuntujenkins> I have never seen the channel so busy
<humphreybc> oh believe me it's been busier than this!
<humphreybc> you should have seen the first meeting....
<humphreybc> wow.
<ubuntujenkins> I didn't join untill the second or third unfortunatley
<humphreybc> okay, so ronald_ you'll now have to run /pkgs/install-pkgs.sh
<humphreybc> this might take a while, as it will install LaTeX 2009 and a whole heap of fonts and dependencies, which come to about 2GB
<ronald_> it says bash: /pkgs/install-pkgs.sh: No such file or directory
<IlyaHaykinson_> ./pkgs/install-pkgs.sh from the ubuntu-manual directory
<IlyaHaykinson_> include the ./ at the beginning
<ronald_> thanks
<humphreybc> vish, the reason the branch didn't detect the pdf was because it was in .bzrignore - but i'm just going to rename it and push again. i should have realised in the first place, d'oh!
<humphreybc> vish, revision 384, /graphics/manual.pdf :)
<humphreybc> ah TommyBrunn is here now!
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn, meet thumper - Canonical launchpad/bzr release manager
<TommyBrunn> Hey there.
<thumper> humphreybc: just the release manager for 10.02 of Launchpad
<thumper> normally just called launchpad-code team lead
<humphreybc> thumper: okay :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> *sigh* the software center could be so much better....
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: i agree totally
<IlyaHaykinson_> they certainly have plans to improve it, by v4
<IlyaHaykinson_> i.e. 11.04
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> seems to be making rather slow progress?
<IlyaHaykinson_> but, well, that's a while from now. and until then, there's user confusion.
<IlyaHaykinson_> probably just not a lot of resources dedicated to it. after all, this is actually written by canonical.
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> what's it written in?
<IlyaHaykinson_> no idea, actually.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah. python + gtk
<humphreybc> that's what i guessed
<humphreybc> so for a python app that's basically just a gui front end to apt, and considering they have synaptic to take stuff from, it's taking them a long time to make any progress. oh well.
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, well, there's more to it of course
<humphreybc> what can ya do? haha
<humphreybc> well yes
<humphreybc> the whole app review system is new
<IlyaHaykinson_> indeed. plus everything simple is always more complex than it seems :)
<humphreybc> take quickshot for example...
<humphreybc> lol
<IlyaHaykinson_> so i bet just getting the UI to work right, and fast, and reliably, is a big enough challenge
<IlyaHaykinson_> for a few part-time devs
<humphreybc> or UMP - all we're doing is writing documentation, but it seems to be very hard haha
<IlyaHaykinson_> :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> maybe some day when i have a ton of free time, i'll pick a project like the software center and start hacking on it.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i love python, and would love to learn some gtk+ in the process of working on something
<IlyaHaykinson_> (but don't try to recruit me for quickly or GC, heh)
<IlyaHaykinson_> er, quickshot
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> yeah i'm the same
<humphreybc> btw, IlyaHaykinson_ http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<humphreybc> oh and ubuntujenkins: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<humphreybc> and pretty much everyone
<ubuntujenkins> yep got it already thansk
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> wasn't sure if you had or not
<IlyaHaykinson_> nod; saw it.
<humphreybc> oh btw, i cleaned up the main page of the wiki today
<humphreybc> it should now be easier for new users
<humphreybc> and i decided we're now on 64% completion :P
 * humphreybc loves the completely unscientific progress bar
<IlyaHaykinson_> :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> i dispute your finding; 63.9% would have been a lot more appropriate!
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> see i opted for 64% instead of 65% to make it look like we've got some hardout "live" thing
<humphreybc> next time i update it i'll make it something like 68.1%
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> godbyk: could you please switch the website on test.ubuntu-manual.org to wolter's one now
<humphreybc> thanks :)
<rudi> humpreybc, i got bzr to start "fetching revisions, inserting stream data"
<rudi> is that correct?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> just wait for a bit, it's downloading our project files
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: rudi and ronald_ are going to help with writing and editing
<humphreybc> guys, Ilya is basically in charge of coordinating the authors
<IlyaHaykinson_> rudi, ronald_: we need most help in chapters 4 (hardware) and 6 (system maintenance) right now.
<ronald_> noted
<rudi> aye captain!
<IlyaHaykinson_> the harware chapter is about 1/10th finished, at best.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think ubuntujenkins was going to take some portions of it
<IlyaHaykinson_> i believe printing and sound
<IlyaHaykinson_> so i would prefer if one of you can take CD/DVD burning
<IlyaHaykinson_> another can take webcams and scanning (these two should be simpler or require less text for now)
<IlyaHaykinson_> or, one of you can take Chapter 6 on and start thinking about it.
<IlyaHaykinson_> any takers?
<rudi> i'm currently looking at chapter 6 as we speak
<humphreybc> also, IlyaHaykinson_ rudi is on a 3GB bandwidth limit a month
<humphreybc> so he's not going to download latex
<humphreybc> but rather write his chapter in .txt files
<humphreybc> then someone can convert them into .tex and insert commands. thoughts?
<humphreybc> rudi, you can see the completed PDF in /graphics/manual.pdf
<rudi> humphreybc,i'll go check quickly
<humphreybc> that's what it looks like when you compile it if you had LaTeX 2009
<humphreybc> you could probably learn latex commands just by looking at the tex files and then seeing what happens in the pdf. it's not that hard, ie, \textbf{} makes the text inside the braces bold
<humphreybc> eg, \textbf{this text now becomes bold}
<humphreybc> ah, jaminday!
<humphreybc> just the person i wanted to talk to!
<jaminday> hehe heya
<IlyaHaykinson_> for chapter 4, see the proposed outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware
<humphreybc> can you sort out your editors and get them to compile a progress report of their assigned chapter?
<humphreybc> so get them to rate it out of 10, 10 being completed, 0 being not even started
<IlyaHaykinson_> note that this proposed outline is not comprehensive -- it may need to be expanded or contracted as needed
<rudi> humphreybc i can see the pdf, it looks awesome
<jaminday> yep - i just saw that on the to-do list
<rudi> i'll use the latex commands that i can see
<humphreybc> and then you'll need to tell them to chase up the authors if their chapter is anything below an 8
<rudi> whereverpossible
<IlyaHaykinson_> for example, the section on webcams doesn't need to go into  detail on ekiga
<humphreybc> we want the editors and the authors working as a team of two people
<rudi> what about cheese?
<jaminday> you want them to post the update on the whiteboard of their blueprint?
<humphreybc> that would be great
<IlyaHaykinson_> we can mention cheese, but not cover it since it's not installed by default
<jaminday> e.g. chapter currently at x out of 10 completion etc
<humphreybc> or get them to email the results to you, and you can send a summary to me or Ilya, or the list
<humphreybc> yep. so the idea is that the authors write the chapter, they report to their _editor_
<jaminday> yeah ok i'll do that, that way i can collate it better
<IlyaHaykinson_> rudi: if you send text files to me, i will incorporate them into the chapter.
<humphreybc> the editor and the author work together closely as a _team_
<IlyaHaykinson_> for Chapter 6, we don't really have a good chapter outline yet
<jaminday> i'll reiterate that - the team thing - in the email i'll send out
<humphreybc> when they are both satisfied that the chapter is a 10/10, it gets signed off and that's the end of that
<IlyaHaykinson_> and what's in the table of contents is just a hint of what could be included, not the actual outline
<humphreybc> awesome
<IlyaHaykinson_> so someone needs to think through what would make a good chapter
<humphreybc> by team i mean, they should be talking to each other in here, private emails, skype if they must
<IlyaHaykinson_> given the time constraints
<jaminday> is the 10/10 completion rating to be used for an overall completion scale for the website as per earlier discussions?
<humphreybc> also, if an editor is lucky enough to have multiple authors -  then that's their team :)
 * IlyaHaykinson_ reports his status on chapter 4: chapter is not doing well, no authors, so no editing.
<humphreybc> jamin, not really, we're just manually doing that. check out the main wiki page
<jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: hmm, that is a problem
<humphreybc> i just made a progress bar myself and we estimated the completion :D
<humphreybc> who *was* writing 4?
<jaminday> humphreybc: ah cool i like it!
<IlyaHaykinson_> jaminday: nod. hence i'm recruiting ubuntujenkins, rudi, ronald_, and possibly anyone else
<IlyaHaykinson_> oh, various people over time.
<humphreybc> jaminday, thanks :) it's also in the sidebar here: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/
<IlyaHaykinson_> the original author dropped out
<IlyaHaykinson_> i recruited four more
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> nice work
<IlyaHaykinson_> of which two submitted a bit of copy
<IlyaHaykinson_> then disappeared
<jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: excellent. Good to see we have some new people to help out as well
<humphreybc> what happened to Wendy?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think wendy never got ubuntu installed
<humphreybc> darn
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think anyone with tech writign experience should be put to editing, not writing...
 * humphreybc this room might be busier than offtopic :O
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> well we have some editors
<humphreybc> bryan is editing
<humphreybc> and he's doing a great job
<IlyaHaykinson_> right. i know.
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, ....
<humphreybc> yeah
<IlyaHaykinson_> bryan is doing mainly grammar changes
<IlyaHaykinson_> that's not editing
<humphreybc> well maybe rudi can you edit?
<humphreybc> since you don't have latex installed
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, rather, that's minor editing
<humphreybc> okay, well, perhaps ask him to do bigger edits?
<humphreybc> perhaps he doesn't know how much he's actually allowed to change
<IlyaHaykinson_> right now a lot of the changes we need are for structure, presentation order, completeness, etc.
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, have him take a cue from me. i
<IlyaHaykinson_> i'm mercilessly rewriting portions.
<jaminday> yeah Bryan is probably still getting a feel for the project so making some smaller changes initially
<IlyaHaykinson_> anyone who has a problem, can easily revert me, i won't get upset. :)
<jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: yes me too, although i've been somewhat quiet on the editing front for a while now
<IlyaHaykinson_> so Bryan should feel free to do likewise.
<humphreybc> okay, jamin, how many people are actually *actively* editing?
<IlyaHaykinson_> jaminday: yes. *glares* :)
<jaminday> hehe
<rudi> i don't mind editing
<rudi> i think i'd actually prefer it
<jaminday> humphreybc: i'd say about 3-4 *actively* editing although not much has happened for a while
 * humphreybc wonders if it's worth asking the docs team if they could spare anyone...
<jaminday> some have been waiting for more content
<jaminday> rudi: that might be good
<humphreybc> okay, rudi, you're now an editor :)
<humphreybc> jaminday, what chapters *need* editing?
<jaminday> although we do need content written pretty urgently so there is something there to edit!
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> okay, so, Ilya, how many people do we have actively writing stuff?
<rudi> well i can write content too
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, right now i think we mainly need chapter 4 and 6 written
<humphreybc> i talked to matt griffin tonight and he's going to add in his rhythmbox/music store/ubuntu one stuff soon
<IlyaHaykinson_> OR we need to decide to cut them completely
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: good. though how soon is soon? he didn't reply to a recent mail from me.
<jaminday> humphreybc: I don't think John Hart stuck around - i think he had too many bzr/LP issues so his assigned chapter probably needs an allocated editor
<humphreybc> well the writing freeze is no the 31st, you guys all know that right?
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: he knows about the writing freeze and he should have it done by next week
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, wonderful.
<humphreybc> he's been busy doing the music store testing since he's in charge of all that for canonical
<IlyaHaykinson_> understood.
<humphreybc> jaminday: who's john hart? O.o
<IlyaHaykinson_> just as long as we don't have to cut it at the end.
<humphreybc> nope, he knows it's important
<IlyaHaykinson_> rudi: i would say pick one of the things that we've mentioned, and go for it.
<humphreybc> where has joe and kelvin gone?
<humphreybc> the chapter 6 authors?
<humphreybc> chapter 6 isn't too long, just by looking at it
<humphreybc> i could probably power through that in a few hours
<jaminday> humphreybc: I met with John Hart a couple times over chat to get him set up but had some issues, then he stopped replying to my emails
<IlyaHaykinson_> there's enough work to go around -- writing, editing -- that you would be very helpful in any capacity
<IlyaHaykinson_> chapter 6 is not too long, but then again i don't think it's been thought out yet
<IlyaHaykinson_> just has a rough sketch of some must-haves in the TOC
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> okay, let's decide on a plan for chap 6
<humphreybc> then i can do that tomorrow
<jaminday> How about you both take a 'half' each (humphreybc and rudi)
<humphreybc> yeah that could work
<jaminday> ie one on updating and one on upgrading
<humphreybc> rudi, what do you feel like doing? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TableOfContents
<humphreybc> there's updating or upgrading
<rudi> i'll do updating?
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, at the very least, to me, "System Maintenance" means app updates; distro upgrades; disk space cleanup; backup
<IlyaHaykinson_> plus potentially user management
<humphreybc> i think we have those covered except backup
<humphreybc> and user management
<humphreybc> which is pretty easy
<IlyaHaykinson_> and disk space clean up
<rudi> backup: is this using something like rsync? or is it ok to get the end user to install something like grsync?
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/chap6
<humphreybc> team, GO!
<jaminday> rudi: we are trying to stick with GUI in the first 6 chapters
<jaminday> There are a number of GUI backup apps available but not sure what's in the default repos
<jaminday> Perhaps grsync is the way to go but i've never tried it
<rudi> jaminday, thanks for clearing that up
<humphreybc> jamin, you sticking around?
<jaminday> yep only for a couple of mins
<jaminday> humphreybc: sorry had to head off for dinner. I'll try and make it back tonight otherwise should be around again in the next day or two. Have allocated another couple of days to work solely on editing so hopefully we will make some more progress.
<jaminday> humphreybc: Also just email godbyk about our changes to chapter 6. Copied you into the email so you might have read it already.
<jaminday> *emailed
<ajuliano> hi, i would like to help out with the web development. What do i do?
<TommyBrunn1> ajuliano: You could try to get the countdown-timer-thingy on http://ubuntu-manual.org to work in Internet Explorer.
<TommyBrunn1> It's available in the main branch, in ubuntu-manual/website/countdown/
<humphreybc> oO and ajuliano if you could insert http://ubuntu-manual.org/progressbar.png into the countdown timer thingy somewhere too that would be cool
<humphreybc> do you know how to use bzr?
<ajuliano> never done it before
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> sudo apt-get install bzr
<humphreybc> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> website stuff is under /website
<ajuliano> ok thanks
<humphreybc> there are currently two versions of the main website, the stuff in /website and the stuff in /website/wolter-remake
<humphreybc> but the countdown stuff is /website/countdown
<ajuliano> i'm on my mac right now. Is there another way of doing it? otherwise I will try it out later today
<ajuliano> the progressbar looks cool, how does the update work?
<humphreybc> ajuliano: i can send you the files
<humphreybc> i just manually update the .psd for it hehe
<humphreybc> then i put it in the branch
<humphreybc> anything in /website/countdown goes on ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> anything in /website goes on http://test.ubuntu-manual.org
<ajuliano> ok,
<humphreybc> ajuliano: what's your email address? i can zip up the countdown stuff for you
<humphreybc> how good are you at web development?
<ajuliano> till.albert@gmail.com
<humphreybc> groovy
<ajuliano> I do it for a living.
<ajuliano> Working with both Drupal and Wordpress
<ajuliano> Can do a lot of stuffs with php/html/css
<ajuliano> I am a mix of a designer and coder
<humphreybc> Oo
<humphreybc> you're my new favourite person
<ajuliano> :9
<ajuliano> :)
<humphreybc> this is what i want our site to look like: http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/more-website-mockups-new-get-involved-page/
<humphreybc> (i did these mockups last weekend)
<ajuliano> Gotta go now, heading for a meeting
<humphreybc> okay, no probs
<ajuliano> I will check out ur site
<humphreybc> sweet as
<ajuliano> and gonna take a look at the files later today or tomorrow
<ajuliano> btw, i saw the mockups some days ago at OMG!, looks great!
<ajuliano> bye!
<humphreybc> okay well i'm going to watch a movie
<humphreybc> anyone have anything they want me to do before i depart for the evening?
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn1 ping:
<daker> hi
<ubuntujenkins> hi daker
<godbyk> I'm alive again.
<ubuntujenkins> woo!
<godbyk> Trying to rejoin my time zone. :)
<ubuntujenkins> isn't it like 6 am for you?
<godbyk> yeah.
<godbyk> I went to sleep about 10 pm last night.
<godbyk> was awesome.
<godbyk> (I'm naturally a night owl.  My schedule was so messed up, I was going to sleep around 4 pm and waking up around 2 am.  That's not good.)
<godbyk> I'm trying to reset it so I'm awake a bit more during the day.
<godbyk> (Though I'm happy to wake up around 10 a.m.)
<ubuntujenkins> I am so tired at the moment fell asleep in a law lecture
<godbyk> oops. :)
<godbyk> I'm reading irc backlogs, so I'll be posting responses to ancient questions for a couple minutes.  Feel free to ignore me.
<godbyk> vish: There is no background, it's just white/transparent (#fff).
<godbyk> vish: You can grab some compiled version of the manual from here, if you like: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
<godbyk> thorwil: No, I haven't written back to Charlene yet.  I was AFK yesterday.
<godbyk> humphreybc: poing?
<ubuntujenkins> bens in bed
<godbyk> okay, I'm caught up now.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: who let him go to sleep?!
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know :P why would he ahve to sleep?
<godbyk> sleep is a complete waste of time, imo.
<daker> :o
<thorwil> godbyk: what's the state of the internal layout?
<godbyk> thorwil: abysmal?
<godbyk> I'm going to be attacking it today -- just as soon as I'm done switching the test website around to point at wolter's.
<godbyk> asciidoc? whatever happened to good old-fashioned html?
<thorwil> godbyk: ok. slowly getting time to at least be sure about the margins
<godbyk> thorwil: if you have specific complaints or suggestions, feel free to lay 'em on me and I'll add 'em to my list.
<godbyk> yeah, margins are a big one.
<godbyk> now that we have the fonts selected (well, for the Latin alphabet, at least), we can get the line-spacing set and figure out a good block size and whatnot.
<thorwil> pdftex: define anchor at line 82: page.52
<thorwil> [52]
<thorwil> ! Misplaced alignment tab character &.
<thorwil> l.89 ...uch as ``Office'', ``Games'', or ``Sound &
<manualbot> thorwil: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<thorwil> manualbot: i know you are stupid an talking to you makes no sense
<manualbot> thorwil: Error: "i" is not a valid command.
<manualbot> thorwil: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubuntujenkins> silly bot did that to me yesterday
<godbyk> thorwil: put a backslash in front of the ampersand: \&
<godbyk> Also, if we're using American-style grammar and typography, the commas go inside the closing quotation marks:
<godbyk> ``Office,'' ``Games,'' or ``Sound \& ...
<thorwil> godbyk: avoid quotation marks by using italic?
<godbyk> thorwil: Possibly, depending on the context.
<godbyk> it may not need to be set off at all, for that matter.
<thorwil> pushed
<thorwil> and make is happy now
<godbyk> good. :)
<godbyk> the directory structure for wolter's site is weird.
<thorwil> godbyk: he's using asciidoc to define content and structure?
<godbyk> yeah.
<godbyk> I have no idea if I uploaded all the right stuff.
<godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> clicking on pages/ shows the index page
<godbyk> (it looks like I need to clean my glasses. :-))
<thorwil> ARG!
<godbyk> I'm trying to figure out if I did something wrong or if it's meant to look that way.
<godbyk> aha!
<godbyk> it doesn't look that way when I load the local copy.
<godbyk> I didn't upload the etc dir.
<godbyk> so the html pages will be an extra dir deeper, even.
<godbyk> uploading now.
<godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/
<thorwil> copyright notice is broken
<godbyk> on the web page?
<daker> yep
<daker> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/downloads.html
<daker> see the footer
<godbyk> daker: yeah, looks like the image is pushing it all down.
<godbyk> the background box isn't expanding to encompass the image and footer text.
<godbyk> oh, well, that's officially Someone Else's Problem (SEP). :)
<godbyk> some fun (but super ugly) stats: http://ubuntu-manual.org/stats/
<godbyk> I'll get a real stats program installed sometime.
<godbyk> Top 5 traffic sources:
<godbyk> omgubuntu.co.uk (referral) 763  25.85%
<godbyk> (direct) ((none)) 648  21.95%
<godbyk> planet.ubuntu.com (referral) 271  9.18%
<godbyk> google.com (referral) 225  7.62%
<godbyk> ubuntizandoelplaneta.com (referral) 131  4.44%
<godbyk> okay, so back to latex stuff. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: could you minimize the ......... in the toc?
<thorwil> as in making the whole thing as narrow as the longest heading permits?
<godbyk> hey, thorwil: is your cover page in bzr? can I swap that in to the PDFs?  (I know it's unfinished.)
<godbyk> thorwil: you mean the table of contents?
<TommyBrunn1> godbyj: What's the username and password for the statistics area?
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> I'm going to remove the leaders entirely, I think.
<godbyk> we'll have the numbers appear right after the chapter/section title.
<godbyk> (i.e., ragged right)
<godbyk> TommyBrunn1: ooh, good point. sorry. it may not be public.
<godbyk> I did'nt think about that. oops!
<godbyk> that's the crappy stats that my hosting company provides.
<godbyk> when I get a real stats program installed, I'll make it public.
<TommyBrunn1> Alright
<thorwil> godbyk: just wanted to say that ragged is an option, too. if someone complains we can say Bringhurst does it, too ;)
<godbyk> TommyBrunn1: When the site was first set up, we had 0 hits. The next day (1 March), we had 122 hits. On 2 March, we had 2830 hits.
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I prefer ragged.  I made it the default in the document class I use in LaTeX.
 * thorwil 's record is something 22000 hits
<godbyk> thorwil: I mean, it's not like you're trying to add up the page numbers in a column or something!
<godbyk> thorwil: nice!
<godbyk> I don't think my site comes close to that. I never write in my blog.
<thorwil> godbyk: it was an exception, got myself on digg
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> for what?
<thorwil> godbyk: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/popup-scrollbar-concept-demo/
<thorwil> somewhat outdated, as i tweaked the demo script later on
<godbyk> thorwil: cool!
<thorwil> godbyk: line spacing could be larger, but not much
<daker> godbyk, there is an other bugg
<daker> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/
<daker> the Download button is getting 100% of the content page
<godbyk> yeah, I noticed that, too.
<daker> ah oki
<godbyk> daker: Can you file bugs for these?
<godbyk> Wolter's the one working on the site right now.
<godbyk> I'm just hosting it.
<daker> where ?
<thorwil> godbyk: i see " " and â â in use on page ix
<TommyBrunn1> daker: The button should be replaced with a prettier one. I set it all up in a previous version, but it seems Wolter broke it, took it out, or something.
<daker> oki
<godbyk> thorwil: *sigh* yeah, that's lots of little things like that we'll need to fix.
<godbyk> we should compile a list for when the copyeditors get to it.
<thorwil> godbyk: you really want to have the preliminary title page pdf in the repo?
<godbyk> normally, I'd run a sed script through all the .tex files to fix a bunch of that stuff in one go, but that's cause lots of conflicts for people when they go to commit stuff they've been working on.
<godbyk> thorwil: sure! I like it better than the lynx page (especially how it looks right now).
<thorwil> godbyk: what path/name?
<godbyk> thorwil: you can throw it in the titlepage/ dir.
<godbyk> name it whatever you'd like.
<godbyk> do you have just the A4 size or a letter size one too?
<thorwil> just a4
<godbyk> k
<thorwil> titlepage/title_a4.pdf pushed
<godbyk> I'm famished. I'm going to find something to eat.  Will be back soon.
<godbyk> thorwil: awesome, thanks!
<thorwil> np
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn1 last time I spoke to you about quickshot you said you were looking into how to take screenshots with python how is that going?
<TommyBrunn1> ubuntujenkins: I haven't worked on Quickshot at all lately, as I haven't been feeling well (still isn't). However, I have found some information regarding taking screenshots. http://faq.pygtk.org/index.py?file=faq23.039.htp&req=edit & http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2681009#post2681009
<ubuntujenkins> ok thats cool I hope you feel better soon I will have a look at that stuff. thanks
<godbyk> okay, I'm back.  Tasty cereal.
<thorwil> godbyk: text figures for section header numbers don't do it for me. i think those should capital style figures or however you call them
<godbyk> thorwil: in the chapter headings, you mean?  (the section headings are unnumbered)
<thorwil> for example the 9 in front of Troubleshooting looks like it doesn't share the same baseline rather than being a text figure
<godbyk> I was thinking about doing something more fun with the chapter numbers.. make them more prominent.. but I'm waiting to hear back on the chapter icons situation.
<thorwil> oh right
<godbyk> do you know what the status is of the chapter icons?
<godbyk> are they a go or no-go?
<thorwil> godbyk: still unsure
<godbyk> fair enough.
<godbyk> all the section titles are fairly short until you get to the troubleshooting chapter.
<vish> thorwil: godbyk: where are the chapter icons supposed to be placed?
<vish> i see place holders for screenshots , but nothing for icons
<godbyk> vish: that hasn't been specified yet.
<godbyk> depends on the icon design and stuff.
<vish> hmm , well , we need to decide on where before the icon design ;)
<godbyk> one thought I had was to have the icons be large watermarks that are placed in the top right of the chapter opening pages.
<thorwil> vish: i think Ben once mentioned as watermarks. i think he really likes watermarks. and dropshadows
<godbyk> vish: Are you doing the icon design?
<vish> ;p
<vish> godbyk: well , anything that thorwil has still left undone ;p
<godbyk> thorwil: ?
<godbyk> :)
<vish> he hasnt done the icons :)
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> so you're it, then, vish! (you lucky guy!)
<vish> ;)
<godbyk> vish: have you seen thorwil's title page and the line art icons there?
<godbyk> I was thinking just simple flat icons that we could watermark and put in the top right cover of the chapter opening page.
<godbyk> they'd only be partially on the page and bleed to the edge.
<godbyk> then I can superimpose large chapter numbers over them.
<vish> godbyk: yup , i'v modified a bit too , we[ thorwil and i ] have been doing it off the ML
<godbyk> lemme see if I can do a mockup or something real quick.
<godbyk> (inkscape hates how many fonts I have installed and takes forever to load.)
<thorwil> tell me more about that
<godbyk> thorwil: more about what?
<thorwil> godbyk: i meant, yeah, here too, stupid inkscape
<godbyk> thorwil: ah! gotcha.
<godbyk> it should at least show a splash screen if it's gonna take 5 minutes and let me know what it's doing.
<thorwil> godbyk: we need not too silly concepts for the icons to make further thinking about them even worthwhile
<godbyk> if humphreybc ever let's us finish the visual design (instead of waiting on ubuntu/canonical's phantom announcement), we can break up the title page into its graphical and text components and piece it back together again in latex.
<thorwil> godbyk: what the heck to do for Troubleshooting, for example
<godbyk> that way the translations happen automatically.
<thorwil> coffee time, bbl
<godbyk> thorwil: I hear ya. Hmm..
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> maybe troubleshooting is just the same as the 'help!'-style icons.
<godbyk> question marks and the like.
<Red_HamsterX> If it's worth anything, I associate "help" with "help me solve this" more than I associate "help" with "walk me through this".
<Red_HamsterX> TommyBrunn1, ubuntujenkins, I should have time to whip up a take-picture-of-window library today and commit it to the tree. Any specific subdirectory in which you want it to be placed?
<ubuntujenkins> the correct one as per python terms I personaly don't mind
<ubuntujenkins> what does this libary do ?
<Red_HamsterX> Just something to take screencaps, since that's what you were talking about earlier.
<Red_HamsterX> Like a module with a couple of public functions.
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough you know what you are on about
<ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster and kklimonda we have a problem with ssh keys and bzr branches, we were going to use a shortcut and call on the configuration functionality in goundcontrol, but this is currently broken due to launchpad. any thoughs on how we can do it? A major shortcut is to copy the users .ssh folder into the quickshot user.
<BlessJah> kklimonda: ty tu?
<kklimonda> BlessJah: that's why I hate offtopic on the #ubuntu-pl - too many channels too keep track of if people don't stay on topic.
<kklimonda> ubuntujenkins: hmm.. we have to push ssh key to the launchpad so users can pull quickshot and then push changes? what exactly is broken right now? do you have a bug number?
<BlessJah> kklimonda: that's why we've created -offtopic
<ubuntujenkins> we need the user to be able to push stuff into the ubuntu-manaul-screenshots branches
<ubuntujenkins> looking for the bug now
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, humphreybc was working on that last night.
<Red_HamsterX> Do you have access to logs?
<ubuntujenkins> I will look them up
<Red_HamsterX> I noticed a potential snag in the strategy he proposed, but it didn't seem too hard to work around.
<BlessJah> kklimonda: make ops to kick for offtop, they'll learn to use -offtopic channel
<Red_HamsterX> I can paste the relevant lines if you need them.
<Red_HamsterX> Via e-mail or something.
<ubuntujenkins> Bug #527978 is what I was refering to kklimonda
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 527978 in groundcontrol "Launchpad now using openid breaks login" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527978
<Red_HamsterX> My last night, not yours.
<Red_HamsterX> ~10-11 hours ago.
<kklimonda> BlessJah: you should know that it doesn't work like that on #-pl
<ubuntujenkins> ok Red_HamsterX I am now up to date, what was the snag in bens stratergy?
<Red_HamsterX> I'm pretty sure we'd need to share the private key with all committers, which isn't really much of a problem.
<Red_HamsterX> Since we'd be trusting them to commit useful data anyway.
<ubuntujenkins> and storing the password is insecure then
<Red_HamsterX> Not necessarily the password... It could be a throwaway cert or other key.
<Red_HamsterX> If it gets compromised, it could be fixed with a revoke, rollback, and broadcast to all legitimate contributers.
<ubuntujenkins> from a chat nin #launchpad on how to add ssh keys to launchpad " if it's not in the api you'll either have to script a web browser "or do screen-scraping
<ubuntujenkins> can we not assume the user has a launchpad account and ssh key and when the log back into their normal user get them to do the upload?
<Red_HamsterX> Would that be easier or harder than, perhaps, setting up a public Subversion server and just letting them commit data at that, then export its state and commit it to bzr ourselves?
<ubuntujenkins> mmm thats an idea godbyk you deal with server stuff any thoughts ^^^^^?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: for the whole screenshot stuff:
<Red_HamsterX> Setting up public svn is pretty easy, if we've got a server to handle it. I've got two, but I'd prefer to prove my worth before offering to host something like that.
<godbyk> I think it'd be easier to just have a script on the server and the quickshot program uploads images to the server.
<Red_HamsterX> Just 'cause trusting someone new to do something crucial always worries me.
<godbyk> skip the bzr repositories and all that mess.
<Red_HamsterX> A script on which server?
<Red_HamsterX> Or something like scp?
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Why not just use a php (python or whatever) script that runs on the ubuntu-manual.org web server?
<godbyk> quickshot uploads the screenshots via http.
<Red_HamsterX> Also, what about version control, in case someone tries to upload false images over real data?
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, that could work...
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: the script could deal with that, I s'pose. But they shouldn't be taking a screenshot if it's already been taken, right?
<Red_HamsterX> POST -> if file exists, copy old file to backup location; save new file?
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: exactly.
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, that would be pretty easy.
<godbyk> then some moderator could choose the best screenshot to move to our bzr repository.
<ubuntujenkins> we currently have no means of telling which screenshots are taken
<Red_HamsterX> Actually, that's not true, ubuntujenkins.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: well, quickshot can ask ubuntu-manual.org
<Red_HamsterX> If we use a REST-based system like that, it can just query directory contents.
<godbyk> it can download a small text file/database.
<Red_HamsterX> Kinda like AJAX.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: precisely.
<ubuntujenkins> really wow this is way over my  head now I didn't think this was possible
<Red_HamsterX> Quickshot starts, user chooses language/language is inferred, quickshot sends query string, server responds with directory listing.
<godbyk> so instead of quickshot messing with launchpad, bzr, etc., etc., just use the web server.
<ubuntujenkins> makes more sense can we make the server so that users can't remove images?
<Red_HamsterX> Quickshot takes screenshot -> data is POSTed to server -> filesystem-based database is updated
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah.
<Red_HamsterX> Write-only logic.
<Red_HamsterX> If a duplicate is uploaded, the old one gets moved to somebackup location.
<ubuntujenkins> this saves us a tun of hassel
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe its filename with mtime appended.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: and the server-side script would handle naming the file with a unique name.
<godbyk> quickshot just submits a form to the server with the screenshot, language, and whatever metadata.
<Red_HamsterX> That makes more sense, actually.
<Red_HamsterX> Always write something like program_name-timestamp.png
<ubuntujenkins> I have a list of language codes that ubuntu its self uses
<godbyk> and when you start the program, it asks the web server what screenshots are still needed for whatever language.
<Red_HamsterX> And put them in directories based on language code.
<Red_HamsterX> Or prefix all of that with language code.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: or it could just give it a random garbage name and keep the metadata in a database.
<Red_HamsterX> That would also make thumbnail-based filtering a quick process, to avoid having questionable material get past early scrutiny.
<godbyk> when someone wants to move that png to the bzr repository, the web server can give it an appropriate filename on the fly.
<Red_HamsterX> It'd probably be easiest to just rely on the filesystem and avoid complicating things with a database.
<Red_HamsterX> Unless we need more meta-data than we can store in a filename.
<godbyk> we need to have a way of creating 'hey, here's a new screenshot we need for the manual' stuff.
<ubuntujenkins> language code chapter number
<ubuntujenkins> all we need in each and maybe order which it occurs in
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: nah, we don't need that.
<Red_HamsterX> Or do an scp/rsync from a committer's system and let them run a script that transforms their local copy into bzr-friendly filenames/directories.
<godbyk> from the latex side, I'd do something like:
<godbyk> \includegraphics{screenshots/LANG/short-description}
<ubuntujenkins> I am happy to do the commits as quickshot is geting beond me
<godbyk> and LANG will be filled in automatically so the translators never have to worry about that.
<ubuntujenkins> right sounds good to me what ever works
<godbyk> basically each screenshot should be independent of every other screenshot.
<Red_HamsterX> Actually, ubuntujenkins, all you'd need to know to work with this system is a simple function like 'commit_screenshot(data)'.
<godbyk> so no sequence numbers or any of that.
<godbyk> 'cause we'll end up inserting a new screenshot at the last minute or something and then everything goes out the window.
<Red_HamsterX> You shouldn't need to know anything about the webserver to script the Python stuff.
<godbyk> from the quickshot end, it'll be just like submitting a web form.
<Red_HamsterX> I can write that function pretty quickly as soon as godbyk creates the submit form, if we go with this.
<ubuntujenkins> I can create the ui if someone tells me what boxes it needs to have
<ubuntujenkins> asuming the ui is in quickshot windows
<godbyk> shouldn't need any UI.
<godbyk> well, if we're using quickshot for multiple projects, it'll need to know, say, a project url.
<ubuntujenkins> this does seam the best option
<Red_HamsterX> Nope. The webserver should just be an I/O box.
<godbyk> where it can download the metadata for the project.
<Red_HamsterX> With more I than O from Quickshot's persoective.
<godbyk> the metadata would contain the upload script URL
<Red_HamsterX> Data goes in, return code comes out.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX's got it.
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<Red_HamsterX> I do web development, Python development, and sysadmin stuff for something approximating a living, godbyk. :)
<ubuntujenkins> nice :-) if we might get this finished
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk does /menu work now?
<ubuntujenkins> in laytex
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: \menu works, yeah.
<ubuntujenkins> Thanks
<godbyk> thorwil, vish: I emailed you guys some examples of what I was thinking for the icons thing.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk and Red_HamsterX can you please explain your thoughts to huphreybc when he is on next.
<Red_HamsterX> Sure. It's pretty simple from an architectural point of view, though.
<Red_HamsterX> Very easy to diagram.
<Red_HamsterX> And simple means doable.
<ubuntujenkins> cool thats what we like
<thorwil> godbyk: kinda the wrong side of things for the numbers. icons could work, though i suspect some would be very susceptible to such treatment
<godbyk> thorwil: fair enough.
<godbyk> I figured since we reference the chapters by number, the numbers should perhaps be a bit more prominent.
<godbyk> but I'm definitely open to ideas.
<godbyk> (I don't know how best to incorporate the icons into the design, I guess.)
<vish> hmm, why is the side wrong?
<godbyk> vish: side?
<vish> for the numbers
<godbyk> ?
 * godbyk is confused.
<vish> godbyk: what thorwil said above
<godbyk> ah
<vish> i dont think it is wrong
<thorwil> vish: chapter numbers tend to be in the front, not following the title
<vish> thorwil: not necessarily , there are several books which keep the numbers on the right/left margin and the title on top
<godbyk> vish: Maybe you could mock up a better sketch to illustrate?
<godbyk> I fear my sketch sucked so bad that it's worthless. <grin>
<vish> godbyk: yeah , i was just doing that Now :)  but just throwing in random variations ;)  thorwil would kick my ass if he sees it ;p
<Red_HamsterX> Wow. quickly is not 2008-netbook-friendly, dependency-wise.
<Red_HamsterX> ...cvs as a dependency? Weird.
<Red_HamsterX> /dev/sda1             3.7G  3.5G   50M  99% /
<Red_HamsterX> Nice.
<godbyk> ouch
<godbyk> Hey, vish.. forgot the attachments?
<vish> aw crap!
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that!
<Red_HamsterX> I can reposition some stuff under /home or on the always-present SD card if I get any lower. But, still, that thing has a lot of dependencies.
<vish> godbyk: hehe , i usually have a word attached in the mail ,and evolution reminds me to attach , this time i forgot even the word attach ;p
<vish> word "attached"
<thorwil> vish, godbyk: i think the number shouldn't have more weight than the title
<thorwil> so if it's larger, it should be toned down
<godbyk> hold on, lemme open the svg.
<godbyk> (it'll only be 20 minutes before inkscape loads. :))
 * thorwil opened it in eog
<vish> thorwil: ah , right , the size of the text/number is just there , i didnt know what the actual font size was
<godbyk> if the number is larger, then yeah, it shouldn't be full black.. it'll be a dark grey.
<vish> thorwil: we can just have the same size or slightly bigger title number
<godbyk> that way the number and the text appears to be the same color.
<godbyk> thorwil: Is that what you mean?
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> 'kay. I agree with that bit, then.
 * godbyk finally got it open in inkscape.
<godbyk> We should probably avoid the rules and background colors for the chapter titles because we can't guarantee they'll fit on one line with all the translations.
<thorwil> i'm all for keeping it simple, so we won't shoot our own feet
<thorwil> vish: we will also have to face that canadian guy ;)
<vish> ')
<vish> ^thats me closing one eye ;p
<thorwil> on irc, most people have no nose!!
<vish> thorwil: safer to keep it tucked that to stick it out ;)
<vish> than*
<vish> thorwil: godbyk: we already draw a line under the title , right? thats why i tried the third variant , and just went on ;p
<ubuntu> my fail. just lost almost a page of ubuntu-manual's first strings translated into pt.
<danyR> :|
<godbyk> vish: there aren't any lines being drawn anywhere yet, I don't think.
<vish> godbyk: oh.. i think i got it mixed with the other pdf you sent
<godbyk> ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> Okay, I'm gonna head to a friend's house to hang out for a few hours.
<godbyk> I'll holler when I return.
<dutchie> did I miss anything important?
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe.
<Red_HamsterX> We've got a new plan for automatically collecting screenshots from Quickshot clients.
<Red_HamsterX> It only affects the transfer process, though.
 * dutchie is not as involved in QS as he should be
<Red_HamsterX> I just got here yesterday.
<dutchie> I've been here a while :)
<thorwil> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand
 * dutchie suspects this may annoy godbyk somewhat
<Red_HamsterX> From earth to light? Quite a shift.
<sebsebseb> Hi
<Red_HamsterX> Hi.
<sebsebseb> Red_HamsterX: Hi
<cmmtessier> Hello! Just sign up to give you hand. I can help with the editing. If someone could give some direction as  to what needs to be done, that would be great!! Thanks!
<dutchie> jaminday: ^^
<sebsebseb> dutchie: How's the manual coming along?
<godbyk> I'm back now.
<ubuntujenkins> evening all
<dutchie> sebsebseb: well-ish I think
<dutchie> lots still to do though
<godbyk> dutchie: do you know if vish and thorwil saw the new brand stuff?
<godbyk> er, thorwil did, I see. :)
<ubuntujenkins> looks soo good can't wait to see it tomorrow
<dutchie> godbyk: no idea
<dutchie> looks cool though :)
<godbyk> dutchie: is there a way I tell po4a or whatever to just not even add it to the list of things to be translated?
<sebsebseb> dutchie: ok
<Red_HamsterX> The PyGTK reference TommyBrunn linked to works fine, with a few minor catches. I'll start functionizing and optimizing it now.
<dutchie> godbyk: possibly
<Red_HamsterX> (For the actual screencapping)
<dutchie> not something I'm going to start looking into at 22:22 though
<godbyk> I've started adding "% TRANSLATORS: leave this line alone!" to a few things
<godbyk> where they keep translating, say, \coverpage or \tableofcontents.
<ubuntujenkins> sounds good Red_HamsterX
<godbyk> dutchie: fair enough! :)
<Red_HamsterX> You mean they're translating the LaTeX functions?
<ubuntujenkins> which branch is it going in?
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Occasionally, yeah.
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, I'm not sure how the branches are currently set up. My experience has, unfortunately, been with centralized VCSes. (Subversion, CVS)
<Red_HamsterX> I need to break the highlight habit.
<Red_HamsterX> This is a slow channel.
<ubuntujenkins> I suggest it goes into main https://code.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/quickshot don't worry about highlighting it draws my attention
<Red_HamsterX> I was just going to merge things into the main branch, when stable, since I'm adding new modules, rather than reworking existing ones.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't actually mind I am going to netten my stuff up when we finish the timer bit for it
<Red_HamsterX> My typical approach is to always commit to main, unless working on something experimental or possibly damaging stable code.
<Red_HamsterX> (From an SVN standpoint)
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough my branch was only made when I started tinkering and as I don't knwo much python I didn't want to mess up main
<dutchie> Red_HamsterX: tbh, we don't really use it in a very DVCS way
<Red_HamsterX> dutchie, that suits me just fine. :)
<godbyk> Well, it looks like the new Ubuntu font isn't ready for use yet.
<godbyk> According to popey: "The new logo at the top of this article has a new typeface called âUbuntuâ and whilst itâs nowhere near finished (last count I think they had about 15 characters done) it will eventually replace the old Ubuntu Title font."
<ubuntujenkins> thats usefull what letters are there?
<godbyk> He continues: "Canonical are looking to get community involvement in helping develop this font â which looks like it will become the default at some point. Clearly the first characters to be done were âubntâ for Ubuntu and âCANOILâ for the Canonical logo â which borrows a person from the Ubuntu circle of friends and sticks her in the âOâ."
<popey> :)
<godbyk> Hey, popey's here! :-)
<popey> hullo
<godbyk> popey: Is there a dev project for the font?
<popey> there's a guy working on it
<godbyk> heh.. I take it that's a 'no'? :)
<popey> i believe they are going to get people in to help
<popey> given there's a lot of characters yet to do
<godbyk> gotcha
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-04
<Red_HamsterX> It's got limitations, but a library that takes a screenshot of the active window and uploads it to a webserver, as discussed with godbyk about eight hours ago, has been committed under quickshot/lib/.
<Red_HamsterX> Window decorations are correctly handled using both Compiz and Metacity.
<godbyk> cool
<Red_HamsterX> (I'll look into breaking the active window requirement later)
<humphreybc> what's new folks?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: not that much
<humphreybc> don't be foolish, there's always something new :P
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: miss me or notice that I was gone? :D
<humphreybc> i did notice you were gone!
<humphreybc> where have you been?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: on IRC still sure, but not coming here
<humphreybc> oh right
<humphreybc> howcome?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: didn't want to.  plus I am not working on the actsual manual anyway
<humphreybc> fair nuff
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: How's it coming along anyway?
<humphreybc> busy busy busy
<humphreybc> very busy
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: differnet answet to what dutchie gave me earlier, altough similar
<humphreybc> heh what did he say?
<sebsebseb> answer above,  I don't need to correct this, but  answet  looks like a right silly typeo to me
<sebsebseb> [21:43] <sebsebseb> dutchie: How's the manual coming along?
<sebsebseb> [22:05] <dutchie> sebsebseb: well-ish I think
<sebsebseb> [22:05] <dutchie> lots still to do though
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: there you go!
<humphreybc> lol
<sebsebseb> Why lol?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: ?????
<humphreybc> sorry dude i'm pretty busy at the moment, chat in a sec
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: right ok
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: hi
<humphreybc> can talk now, what's up?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: not much,  listening to music, and reaching tech news
<humphreybc> groovy
<sebsebseb> reading not reaching above
<humphreybc> you seen all the new ubuntu branding?
<sebsebseb> yeah
<sebsebseb> jono's link
<sebsebseb> and  the other one
<humphreybc> what do you think?
<sebsebseb> a disapoitment
<sebsebseb> they could of done a nice Lucid Lynx background similar to the 8.10 one
<sebsebseb> got to wait untill later on, when  the repo's will be updated,  then I can install alpha 3 into vm and get the updates and try.   before I tried to do alpha 3 in vm, but the installer or whatever crashed
<sebsebseb> however I was also doing back and forward then
<sebsebseb> Thursday 4th user interface,  altough when they do it I guess it will already be Friday for you
<sebsebseb> user interface freeze, above
<sebsebseb> anyway yeah a nice Lucid Lynx background would be :) as a default background, but no
<humphreybc> i think they've made a huge mistake by putting the window controls on the left
<humphreybc> the purple is kinda nifty though
<godbyk> humphreybc: everyone keeps talking about the window controls on the left, but I haven't seen it yet.
<godbyk> what I have seen is the help button on the left.
<godbyk> the other buttons are on the right (hidden behind another window)
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand
<godbyk> and if I remember correctly, that's the way it's always been.
<sebsebseb> humphreybc:  godbyk There's also this link http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/03/03/refreshing-the-ubuntu-brand/
<godbyk> humphreybc: what section does it talk about the controls being on the left?
<humphreybc> scroll down to "New GtkThemes"
<godbyk> humphreybc: if you're just talking about the screenshots, look at the current appearance dialog.. help button on the left, close button on the right.
<humphreybc> no i mean the minimize, maximise and close buttons
<godbyk> aha!
<humphreybc> they've always been on the top right of windows
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: yeah well
<humphreybc> from now on, they're on the left - like OS X
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Matt Assay whatever his name is
<humphreybc> and for no apparent reason
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: he likes Mac OS X
<godbyk> those are affected by the theme, though, right? so you just pick a different theme and they're back on the right.
<humphreybc> mpt?
<humphreybc> godbyk, yes
<humphreybc> but it's the _default_ theme
<humphreybc> and loads of people don't change from default
<humphreybc> the problem i have is that there is no reason to move to the left
<godbyk> how do you know there's no reason?
<humphreybc> it actually makes it look worse, because the left is already clogged with the file, edit, view menus
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: if the controls are on the left right.  well now I am also thinking that  this purple background is  OS X like as well
<humphreybc> see in OS X it works because those menus are in the panel, not the windows
<humphreybc> so now the window title, window controls AND the application menus are ALL on the left
<humphreybc> which looks stupid
<humphreybc> there's this huge gap on the right
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: I guess with Lucid they are trying to compete against OS X a bit
<humphreybc> i don't see what it adds, and from a design point of view, it makes no sense
<humphreybc> yeah well i'm going to ask mpt myself to see if he can explain the reasoning behind the decision
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: who's mpt?
<humphreybc> if the reason isn't good, i'm going to challenge the decision
<godbyk> lol
<humphreybc> mpt is canonical's design guy
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: anyway  minimize,  maximize, and close buttons should be on the right like Windows
<godbyk> why do you think they should be on the right as opposed to the left?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: go back uhmm I guess it's about four years ago now actsually  I did OS X theme on Ubuntu,  and I had the icons on the left like OS X,  and well  I coudn't just get used to that
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: also there's a way in Gnome to change it to left or right still I guess so :D
<sebsebseb> however default should be on the right for sure
<sebsebseb> since that's what Windows has
<humphreybc> i know
<godbyk> sebsebseb: why couldn't you get used to it?  just too accustomed to them being on the right and couldn't overcome that muscle memory?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: at the time I just wanted Ubuntu to look like OS X, but  I  wanted to keep the buttons on the right, where I was used to them
<godbyk> so far, the only reason I've heard for putting the buttons on the right is "because that's what I'm used to".  are there any other reasons?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I tried on the left, and it was like no
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Ubuntu is mainly about getting Windows users not OS X users
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Windows users have it on the right
<sebsebseb> that's what they are used to
<godbyk> I think Ubuntu should stand on its own.
<sebsebseb> also trying to copy OS X is not really a good thing
<sebsebseb> just like if they try and copy Windows, that's not really a good thing
<godbyk> It doesn't exist to lure Windows or OS X users away. It exists of its own accord and users should switch to it for reasons other than where the minimize button is located. :)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I am thinking hrm at this Lucid release, from what I know about it, and have tried so far.  Thankfuly there are other good distros as well :)
<godbyk> sebsebseb: So you're negating your 'because Windows does it that way' argument?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: however Ubuntu is still the one that most newbies will go to first at the moment
<sebsebseb> and most of them will come from Windows
<godbyk> What parts of Windows should we emulate and what parts shouldn't we?  How do we decide?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: well if they end up on the right,  that's something else I'll have to use gconf editor for
<sebsebseb> to put back on left
<sebsebseb> just like I need to use it, to  put  icons back in system menu and what's missing from places, since silly upstream Gnome decission, and how they also removed the interface thing
<godbyk> Heh.
<godbyk> So you disagree with the reasoning behind the menu icons? Or just prefer it the old way because that's what you're used to?
<sebsebseb> old way since that's what I have used since 2004
<sebsebseb> since before Ubuntu
<godbyk> Unfortunately for those stuck in their ways, progress requires change. :)
<sebsebseb> From what I have seen from Lucid so far,  it's rather hrm,  but thankfuly their are other good distros out there as well,  Mandriva, Fedora, and so on.
<sebsebseb> however as someone who wants Desktop Linux to gain a more proper market share, well I'll still have to support Ubuntu,  even if I am not as keen on it as I used to be.
<sebsebseb> support Ubuntu as in, help other people with it at times,  if I want to try and make a difference, which I do,  but yeah it won't make much difference,  Windows has what a billion or so users?
<sebsebseb> plus it's a nice thing to help people with their computer,  and on the software side I am quite good at that really,  for basic stuff
<sebsebseb> godbyk: stuck with their ways blah de blah,  yeah  so now the theme gets changed, like people wanted,  except  XP,  Vista, and Windows 7  and Mandriva as well as a few other Linux distros,   probably all still look better than Ubuntu by default.   Well I don't really know yet,  I will need to try this new theme stuff properly for real,  before I can decide if I think it's good or bad.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Fedora had Plymouth for quite a while, about time Ubuntu has it really,  Mandriva has it as well.
<sebsebseb> !ot
<manualbot> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<sebsebseb> :)  That's the message I suggested for the factoid
<godbyk> lol.. nice.
<godbyk> Most of the arguments I've heard against the minimize/maximize/close button placement and the menu icons have boiled down to "we just plain like it this way and don't want to change".
<godbyk> Which is a fine argument as far as it goes.
<godbyk> But there may be good reasons to change.
<godbyk> The changes may, in fact, be an improvement to usability.
<godbyk> For example, removing superfluous menu icons means that the icons that remain attract my attention and have more meaning.
<godbyk> They serve as signposts and don't get lost in the jumble of other multicolored and mostly indecipherable (and therefore meaningless) icons.
<godbyk> As for the window controls, I haven't read any studies on that, so I'm not sure if there's an argument one way or another.
<sebsebseb> uhmm I put probably  all still look better tahn Ubuntu by default,  well that's wrong,  they do look better than Ubuntu by default
<sebsebseb> altough looks are of course opinion
<sebsebseb> some people like this, other people like that
<godbyk> I could see a hypothesis that their placement on the left is bad because it makes it too easy to accidentally close the window when you wanted to hit the File menu.
<godbyk> But perhaps it's better on the left because that's where the other common mouse targets are.
<sebsebseb> as for the buttons,  some people really want it on the right since that's what they are used to,  others want it on the left since they like how OS X does things.
<sebsebseb> others won't care if it's on the right or left
<godbyk> We'd have to experiment and see.
<sebsebseb> LTS isn't really the one to experiment in
<sebsebseb> oh on the left ah yes
<sebsebseb> Gnome 3
<godbyk> I'm less interested in how it looks (the opinion bits) and more interested in how well it functions.  (Though appearance does affect usability.)
<sebsebseb> that might be to do with it if they are putting minimize, maximize, and close buttons on the left, something to do with Gnome 3
<sebsebseb> just like their edits on the right,  well  Gnome 3  has something a bit like that on the right
<sebsebseb> !ot
<manualbot> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<sebsebseb> we are, but oh well
<godbyk> There's not much else going on at the moment, so it's okay. :)
<godbyk> (Unless you're just enjoying ordering manualbot around. ;-))
<sebsebseb> it's a bit of fun to use the factoid though, since  when the bot came.  well soon after it got my factoid suggestion
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Do you know anything about Gnome 3?
<sebsebseb> Have you seen screenshots or something
<sebsebseb> some of these features the later Ubuntu features,  are in a way preparing people for Gnome 3
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: manual will change quite a bit I think, when  Gnome 3 becomes the default
<godbyk> sebsebseb: I've seen a few screenshots here and there.
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: altough  that won't be untill 10.10 or 11.04 I guess
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: no not 10.10 I mean
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: 11.04 or 11.11
<sebsebseb> a bit to early for Ubuntu to have Gnome 3 as a default for 10.10 I think, since Gnome 3 will be released in September
 * humphreybc has just finished writing a lengthy blog article on the new branding: http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/my-thoughts-on-the-ubuntu-branding-refresh/
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: about to read that then
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: I am reading it now, and I will link to it in #ubuntu+1  as well as another channel
<humphreybc> sweet as
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: sweet as?
<humphreybc> heh, it's a kiwi thing :D
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: you used their images though, maybe you shoudn't of done that
<humphreybc> i'm allowed to
<sebsebseb> you sure?
<humphreybc> yep
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: oh so it's just as simple as changing the theme, to have the buttons on the left?
<sebsebseb> that's what I was going to do anyway, if Lucid was using the Karmic icon theme
<sebsebseb> I like the Gnome defaults :)
<humphreybc> as i understand it, the buttons are linked to the theme
<humphreybc> at least, they have been in the past. I don't know whether they're going to *force* all themes to have the buttons on the left for this release.
<humphreybc> Either way has pros and cons
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Mat asay whatever he is called
<sebsebseb> that new  Canonical employee
<humphreybc> which i can discuss later, but right now i have to head off to a computer lab
<humphreybc> new canonical employee?
<sebsebseb> he likes Mac OS X a lot,  according  to another channel I go to, people in that
<humphreybc> who's that?
<humphreybc> you sure you're not getting confused with Matthew Paul Thomas, ie, mpt?
<sebsebseb> no
<humphreybc> mpt has been around for a while
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> well the thing is, it wasn't just one person who decided on all this
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: the new employee who's doing what Shuttleworth used to do
<humphreybc> well mark used to be the CEO, and the CEO of canonical now is a lady
<humphreybc> anyway, i have to dash mate
<humphreybc> i'll talk to you later :)
<sebsebseb> humphreybc:  I guess I meant what she used to do then
<sebsebseb> Cheif Operating System Officer or whatever it is
<Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, have you had a chance to go over the screenshot-ubmission idea that was discussed about thirteen hours ago?
<Red_HamsterX> If not, I can summarize.
<humphreybc> uuhm nope i haven't seen it
<humphreybc> summarize please :)
<Red_HamsterX> One-line: submission via HTTP POST.
<humphreybc> who suggested that?
<humphreybc> and can you elaborate?
<Red_HamsterX> godbyk suggested it.
<Red_HamsterX> We bounced the idea around, with Luke in the middle, and it seemed to be viable.
<humphreybc> okay. thumper had a meeting with the LP managers this morning and he was going to discuss our stuff
<humphreybc> before we decide on anything we'll see what the outcome was
<Red_HamsterX> He'll set up a server that'll just accept and tag images with a versionable nameing scheme.
<Red_HamsterX> It's just an idea, of course.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> that could be nice and simple
<humphreybc> just using a database?
<Red_HamsterX> Filesystem, probably.
<Red_HamsterX> No database needed.
<Red_HamsterX> I've got proto-type code that takes a screenshot of the active window, corrected for decorations, and uploads it via HTTP ready for testing.
<Red_HamsterX> It's been committed under quickshot/lib.py.
<humphreybc> oO sounds very promising, nice work
<Red_HamsterX> It handles every theme I've thrown at it, as well as Compiz.
<humphreybc> fantastic!
<Red_HamsterX> Swapping HTTP for something else should be easy, though.
<humphreybc> the sweet smell of progress ;)
<Red_HamsterX> I'm hoping to help a lot this weekend.
<humphreybc> okay, i've just pinged thumper (and subsequently just did again :D ) so we'll know very soon
<Red_HamsterX> I only had an hour today.
<humphreybc> he's quite busy with the launchpad 10.02 rollout right now i believe
<Red_HamsterX> It's 10.03, isn't it?
<Red_HamsterX> Or does Launchpad not follow a YY.MM convention?
<Red_HamsterX> But, yeah, HTTP is pretty trivial to set up.
<Red_HamsterX> I've done things like that a large number of times.
<Red_HamsterX> We'd just need to agree on credentials and tagging logic.
<Red_HamsterX> And devise an export routine.
<humphreybc> not sure
<humphreybc> it's 10.02 though
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: if enough people complain about the buttons on the left,  they will probably go on the right.  Just like how they were going to remove Open Office from the net book edition, but enough people complained, so it's stilli in.
<humphreybc> okay well you guys know a lot more about this stuff than I :)
<Red_HamsterX> ...Remove OOo from UNR? That sounds stupid. :(
<Red_HamsterX> I'm glad that didn't happen.
<Red_HamsterX> Or else this netbook would be sad..
<Red_HamsterX> 'Cause I'd have to give it emotions.
<humphreybc> ubuntu/canonical folk can make some pretty dumb decisions, believe me
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: indeed @ that
<humphreybc> but the theme thing is a bit different the UNE default apps
<thumper> whazzup?
<thumper> humphreybc: whazzup?
<thumper> it is getting the kids into bed time
<humphreybc> yo
<humphreybc> kk you do that, i'll chat to you afetr
<humphreybc> after*
<humphreybc> thumper ^^
<humphreybc> godbyk, how can i see the analytics on the site?
 * IlyaHaykinson_ just asked the general council for creative commons about the license issue.
<IlyaHaykinson_> we'll see what she says
<IlyaHaykinson_> s/council/counsel
<humphreybc> okay cool :)
<wolter> well well, have the ubuntu interface designers become crazy?
<wolter> the new 'light' theme looks like a cheap mac os x mockup
<humphreybc> yes, they have.
<humphreybc> wolter, we're working on it.
<wolter> and yes humphreybc, I read your blog post :)
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/my-thoughts-on-the-ubuntu-branding-refresh/
<humphreybc> he he :)
<wolter> hahaha
<humphreybc> i'm skyping with someone about it now
<wolter> thats what informed me, to be precise
<wolter> nice
<wolter> someone important?
<wolter> tell him what people in the channels think (me ;)) haha
<wolter> and that purple thing going on... i bet its to make it a bit more similar to mac
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i agree on the button placement thing for the UI refresh
<IlyaHaykinson_> and hope that they reconsider.
<IlyaHaykinson_> on the logo colors, though, i don't mind giving them some slack.
<wolter> yeah, logo colors are ok, but the main desktop looks like hey, i'm a mac try me
<humphreybc> guys, please add your comments to the article
<humphreybc> it's going to be read by some high-up people with a bit of luck, and probably on the planet tomorrow
<humphreybc> so more feedback on the article itself is good.
<humphreybc> :)
<wolter> ok
<wolter> woow #2
<wolter> anyway, goodbye people
<humphreybc> godbyk. ping?
<rudi> I'm back!
<sebsebseb> Hi
 * sebsebseb is back
<sebsebseb> oh MenZa is in here
<MenZa> sebsebseb: Where am I not? :)
<sebsebseb> MenZa: Your new to this channel?
<MenZa> sebsebseb: Aye.
<sebsebseb> MenZa: That's a yes?
<MenZa> sebsebseb: Aye.
<MenZa> (Yes, yes it is)
<MenZa> :)
<sebsebseb> MenZa: Ok since when?
<MenZa> As of earlier today.
<sebsebseb> just found out about the manual or something?
<sebsebseb> MenZa: ????
<sebsebseb> welcome to the channel btw
<Red_HamsterX> You never welcomed me. :(
 * Red_HamsterX pouts.
<sebsebseb> Red_HamsterX: I am only back here as of yesterday
<Red_HamsterX> Fine, fine. Use logical reasoning. See if I care. =P
<sebsebseb> !welcome | MenZa Red_HamsterX
<manualbot> MenZa Red_HamsterX: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay!
<sebsebseb> Red_HamsterX: You were already in here when I joined today, and I sort of know MenZa a little bit on IRC.
<sebsebseb> MenZa: So just wondering how did you find out about the manual/channel or well both?
<ubuntujenkins> hello all, hows it going?
 * ubuntujenkins has the new lucid theme ;-)
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I have the background, but about to install the theme
<sebsebseb> now that the updates are there
<sebsebseb> into my vm
<ubuntujenkins> not a huge fan of the background I will stick with my rotatating ones, they have rearagnged the maximize, minimise, close order of the buttons
<ubuntujenkins> I am on a real machine
 * ubuntujenkins lucid has become a bit bugggy for me over the last few days
<Red_HamsterX> If it weren't bug-prone, it'd be released by now.
<Red_HamsterX> Or something.
<ubuntujenkins> I know it was a passing comment
<Red_HamsterX> No comments are allowed to pass!
<ubuntujenkins> ]But what if I know the password?
<Red_HamsterX> That's a password, not a passcomment.
<Red_HamsterX> I need to get my Lucid box up this weekend.
<Red_HamsterX> Any weird gotchas with the current build?
<ubuntujenkins> have you got an nvidia card?
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, but I don't really care about acceleration.
<Red_HamsterX> I can use nv or vesa.
<Red_HamsterX> (Unless the nvidia maintainers want help tracking down bugs)
<ubuntujenkins> well you may have to log in twice. This is solved by either removing plymoth. or clicking your user pressing enter and then x crashes and then you can login with no problem. (It may be nvidia driver only)
<ubuntujenkins> They are anoying and keep installing plymoth in updates
<ubuntujenkins> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gdm/+bug/528830 is the bug
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 528830 in gdm "Must log in twice to gdm in Lucid (dup-of: 522692)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 522692 in plymouth "Pressing <Enter> key causes gdm to restart on first boot" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Red_HamsterX> I actually encountered something similar to 522692 with 9.10 today.
<Red_HamsterX> But I haven't been able to reproduce it.
<ubuntujenkins> Weird, my bug is very anoying unless you remeber to deliberatly crass x first
<ubuntujenkins> Red
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-05
<godbyk> hey, humphreybc: did you figure out the google analytics stuff?
<humphreybc> nope, never got round to it
<godbyk> ah, just to go google.com/analytics and log in.
<godbyk> you should see the ubuntu-manual.org site there.
<humphreybc> oh okay, that's easy :)
<humphreybc> godbyk, i can see all your sites
<godbyk> oh yeah?
<godbyk> hmm
<godbyk> humphreybc: ah, it's 'cause I made you an admin. guess I'll bump you back to a normal user. :-)
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> (not that there anything exciting or secret there!)
<godbyk> I guess you could laugh at how few visitors I have to my site. :)
<humphreybc> aw it peaked at 2830
<humphreybc> you do have a lot of sties
<humphreybc> sites*
<godbyk> most of those are dead, I think.
<humphreybc> haha
<jaminday> hi all
<jaminday> humphreybc: just updating the ToC on our wiki to reflect changes to structure
<godbyk> Hey, jaminday
<jaminday> godbyk: hi!
<jaminday> i've taken out chapter 6 and moved all later chapters down a number
<jaminday> renamed chapter 9 (now 8) to Troubleshooting and System Maintenance
<godbyk> jaminday: I just created your account and emailed you the details.
<jaminday> godbyk: great thanks
<godbyk> As long as the \labels aren't changed, all the cross-references should update themselves.
<godbyk> (with the exception of the chapter you removed.. you could add that chapter's label to the new chapter for backwards compatibility, but it's probably better to update the old labels.)
<humphreybc> jaminday: awesome, thanks
<jaminday> ok. I'll be going through in a sec and updating the files in branch so will try make sure it all works
<jaminday> humphreybc: np
<jaminday> hehe just got an internal server error when trying to save changes to the wiki
<jaminday> crisis averted...
<jaminday> ok blueprints should now reflect new structure as well
<jaminday> if i didn't confuse myself too much in the process
<humphreybc> changing blueprints is so confusing!
<humphreybc> but the benefit is you'll have like a million karma now jamin, haha
<jaminday> tell me about it!
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> nope only 1173 - still a ways to go before one million
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i've got 28,000 muahaha
 * godbyk only has 1539.
<Red_HamsterX> 28,000?
<Red_HamsterX> Wow.
<godbyk> I do need to update some of my blueprints, though. :)
<Red_HamsterX> I'm sure mine's all expired.
<godbyk> It expires?
<Red_HamsterX> The last time I contributed through LaunchPad was in 2005.
<Red_HamsterX> "Neil Tallim's karma has expired."
<Red_HamsterX> Yep
<humphreybc> yeah it does expire
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: https://launchpad.net/~humphreybc
<Red_HamsterX> Any my activity log is, like, empty. :(
<Red_HamsterX> I wonder if there was a partial wipe at some point.
<Red_HamsterX> Or if commits weren't tracked.
<Red_HamsterX> 28.5K over one year?
<Red_HamsterX> Impressive.
<Red_HamsterX> And scary.
<godbyk> 'Specification tracking' weighs too heavily, I think.
<godbyk> I have 2x as much karma for that than bzr commits.
<humphreybc> actually, 28.5k in like 2 months
<humphreybc> yeah, they have been thinking of doing something called "karma normalisation"
<humphreybc> if I had 28,000 karma from bzr pushes, then i would have fixed pretty much every bug in ubuntu in 2 months haha
<jaminday> can i clarify something...
<humphreybc> sure
<jaminday> did you definitely want chapter titles to only have capitals on first word?
<godbyk> heh.. I'm getting some translation karma for the LaTeX-related typos in the translations that I fixed.
<jaminday> so "Troubleshooting and system maintenance"
<humphreybc> dutchie has the most translation karma haha
<humphreybc> more than the translators
<godbyk> nice
<jaminday> humphreybc: *bump*
<Red_HamsterX> I prefer titlees of that form, if that means anything
<Red_HamsterX> I'm pretty sure that's how I formatted everything when I was editing the Yelp docs (that seem to have evolved into the current manual) back in 2005.
<humphreybc> jaminday: i think it looks good that way
<humphreybc> do you not like it like that?
<jaminday> i'm cool with that for all subtitles but feels strange not to capitalise chapter headings
<jaminday> but its growing on me ;-)
<humphreybc> heh
<jaminday> it's fine just wanted to doublecheck
<humphreybc> jaminday: do you want to add that to the agenda on saturday?
<jaminday> nah it sounds like everyone is ok with it. Let's leave it for now and once everything else is done we can always revisit it if necessary.
<jaminday> would only take 2 seconds to fix if we wanted to change later
<humphreybc> indeed
<jaminday> godbyk: ok main branch is updated so chapter 6 (well the old chapter 6) is no more and content moved into appropriate chapters
<jaminday> writers/editors will need to merge the content appropriately
<godbyk> jaminday: cool. I'm sure the translators will love you. :)
<jaminday> i know!
<jaminday> is there a way to check whether anyone references \label{ch:system-maintenance} anywhere?
<jaminday> as that is now no more
<godbyk> if you run 'make', you can grep the main.log file for 'Warning: Reference" to see the undefined references.
<humphreybc> oh god the translators...
<humphreybc> they're gonna be like WTF HAPPENED TO CHAP 6
<jaminday> hehe
 * humphreybc is having re-heated pizza and coke for breakfast at 2:45pm
<jaminday> godbyk: ok will do so now
<jaminday> godbyk: hmm... nothing seems to be happening when i click 'make pdf'
<humphreybc> you broke it jamin
<humphreybc> end of the world is nigh
<godbyk> if it doesn't detect any changes, it won't remake the pdf.
<godbyk> try make clean, then make pdf.
<Red_HamsterX> jaminday, short of running make, couldn't you just grep for that?
<jaminday> nope tried make clean first
<jaminday> now im getting this http://pastebin.com/ZzyPv4wD
<humphreybc> boom
<humphreybc> (that was the world exploding)
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> ah hang on
<jaminday> its ok i shouldn't have renamed the folder
<jaminday> the world is safe again
<humphreybc> yay
<jaminday> Red_HamsterX: can you grep through multiple files and folders at once?
<Red_HamsterX> jaminday, *
<Red_HamsterX> grep "string" *
<Red_HamsterX> grep "string" dir/*
<Red_HamsterX> I dunno about recursiveness, though.
<jaminday> Red_HamsterX: tried it and i get nothing, so either it searched and there are no issues or otherwise it's not searching recursiveley
<godbyk> jaminday: you can:  grep -r "ch:blah-blah" *
<jaminday> *recursively
<jaminday> ah yes the -r did it
<jaminday> looks ok, it's only finding references to \label{ch:system-maintenance} in the old maintenance folder
<Red_HamsterX> Man pages are helpful. <3
<jaminday> hehe i know - but also easier sometimes to just ask someone smarter than me!
<Red_HamsterX> Usually, yes.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm guilty of that, too.
<Red_HamsterX> (I try to atone by being one of those people whenever possible, though)
<humphreybc> jamin, that was revision 400 :P
<jaminday> awesome...
<humphreybc> 400 revisions in 2 months
<humphreybc> there is a word for that: insane.
<humphreybc> oh no it's revision 399
<humphreybc> now it's revision 400...
<humphreybc> haha
<jaminday>  well... i'm off to have some lunch
<humphreybc> holy crap our facebook page now has 467 fans. what the heck!
<humphreybc> okay, catchya later jamin :) thanks for restructuring the manual, good work!
<jaminday> no worries - before i go, does anyone know what happened to Joe Burgess?
<jaminday> is he still around?
<humphreybc> no idea
<humphreybc> i saw him in here a couple of days ago
<humphreybc> pinged him, but he didn't reply
<jaminday> hmmm... well he was allocated as writer for (old) chapter 6 but has been pretty quiet
<jaminday> not sure if he is planning to keep adding to it
<jaminday> That's right, Kelvin Gardner kinda took over
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> i'll flick him an email
<jaminday> yeah ok. Also see reply i just sent to Elan's email. We might need to discuss it further on Saturdays meeting
<humphreybc> anyone know how hard it is to set up a server to use a wireless USB thing instead of ethernet?
<Red_HamsterX> Depends on the wireless USB thing.
<Red_HamsterX> If it's supported out-of-the-box, probably pretty easy.
<jaminday> (ok off to lunch for real now)
<godbyk> so the maintenance chapter is dead now?
<humphreybc> yes
<humphreybc> most of it has been merged to troubleshooting
<godbyk> okay, I'll remove the \input line from main.tex, then.
<humphreybc> but some is going to software/packaging
<godbyk> were any other chapters rearranged or will the order stay the same?
<humphreybc> order is staying the same
<godbyk> I think I'm gonna go read a fiction book for a bit.  Feel free to ping me if you need anything. godbyk-android
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> godbyk, i'm going to be doing a fresh install of lucid either today or tomorrow, so we'll see how the latex install goes
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool. lemme know.
<humphreybc> wilco
<godbyk> humphreybc: also if you can grab a couple screenshots (a full-screen one and a window or smaller one), that'd be handy for testing.
<humphreybc> yep, that's the first thing i'll do
<Red_HamsterX> For testng what?
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> does anyone know the particulars of a fresh install with respect to stuff like SSH keys and things?
<Red_HamsterX> LaTeX?
<humphreybc> testing screenshot implementation into the document
<godbyk> so I can write some useful commands for inserting them into LaTeX, yeah.
<Red_HamsterX> Copy ~/.ssh and you should be fine as long as the hostname and username match.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> i'm backing up my home directory
<humphreybc> i'll just copy across certain things
<Red_HamsterX> Assuming you aren't trying to SSH into the server.
<Red_HamsterX> If you are, you'll also need your SSH keys from /etc/.
<humphreybc> no i just want bzr to work
<Red_HamsterX> Just the ~/. stuff, then.
<humphreybc> groovy
<humphreybc> is chromium now in the lucid repos?
<humphreybc> and does bookmark sync work in chromium, or just google chrome?
<humphreybc> this weekend, on sunday the 7th, i'm going to be having my own "sprint" for writing content
<humphreybc> basically just sitting down, turning off IRC, pidgin and gmail, and just writing and editing
<humphreybc> if anyone wants to join me and make the day just purely writing and editing, that would be awesome
<Red_HamsterX> I'll put myself at the disposal of the other hackers for the entire weekend.
<humphreybc> oresome :)
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: i was talking to thumper earlier
<humphreybc> and he thinks that we can set up one user on launchpad for quickshot
<Red_HamsterX> So keep going with the old plan?
<humphreybc> and he also reckons we could just use one branch
<humphreybc> yeah, i think that could work. but if you want to run your new plan by thumper and see what he says, that could work
<Red_HamsterX> I don't see why multiple branches would be needed, anyway.
<thumper> ?
<humphreybc> you guys know more about this sort of stuff than I
<Red_HamsterX> When's he usually active?
<humphreybc> now :)
<thumper> now
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, he's ative now.
<humphreybc> he's in the same town as me
<Red_HamsterX> godbyk suggested that we might be able to just use an HTTP server that supports upload by POST
<humphreybc> the main reason i figured we should use different branches is just for the size of the branch
<thumper> Red_HamsterX: instead of bzr branches?
<Red_HamsterX> File + auth credentals + meta-data -> file stored in server-side filesystem.
<thumper> Red_HamsterX: certainly easier to write
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah. The advantages here would be the lack of a need to have users create a new account and the lack of a need to have them know anything about bzr.
<thumper> do you have a server you have access to?
<humphreybc> godbyk has a VPS with unlimited bandwidth and unlimited space, apparently
<Red_HamsterX> I've already written and committed a prototype upload script along with a screencap routine.
<thumper> Red_HamsterX: sounds like a plan
<humphreybc> thumper, if we did it this way, it would mean less strain on bzr and launchpad, and we could keep the lp admins happy?
<Red_HamsterX> I've got a local server and a VPS of my own, but I'm too new to this project to feel comforatble with offering to host such a crucial components.
<thumper> Red_HamsterX: use the post address as the file identity
<thumper> Red_HamsterX: also it would allow you to get multiple submissions for a given picture without losing any
<Red_HamsterX> I think the plan was to add meta-data in the rest of the HTTP form fields.
<Red_HamsterX> Yes, it would. Timestamping + creedentials + meta-data.
<thumper> yeah, just as easy
<Red_HamsterX> And writing a directory list routine is trivial.
 * thumper nods
<Red_HamsterX> So we could avoid prompting users to take screencaps of anything already accepted and approved by an admin.
<humphreybc> cool, so, should i go and delete the language branches and just have one "main" branch?
<Red_HamsterX> Delete or merge?
<Red_HamsterX> Wait until godbyk gets back before doing anything.
<thumper> heh
<humphreybc> kk
<thumper> well, to be honest you'll probably want join not merge
<Red_HamsterX> It's probably best to make sure everyone's current before proceeding with anything irreversible. =P
<humphreybc> there's nothing in any of the branches at lp:ubuntu-manual-screenshots
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: good point :)
<Red_HamsterX> Er... Yeah, probably.
<Red_HamsterX> I come from the SVN world.
<Red_HamsterX> I think in slightly different terms.
<thumper> +1 on an http server accepting images
<thumper> easier to write
<thumper> less exposure to abuse
<thumper> easier to manage
<thumper> do it
<humphreybc> sweet - that's done then
<humphreybc> godbyk-android, news
<godbyk-android> ?
<humphreybc> we're going to run with the HTTP server for the images
<humphreybc> and probably just have one branch instead of multiple branches for each language
<godbyk-android> Cool. I think that'll be simpler.
<humphreybc> yup. Red_HamsterX what timezone are you in?
<Red_HamsterX> UTC-7
<Red_HamsterX> Mountain,
<thumper> Red_HamsterX: member of CoLoCo?
<humphreybc> hmm. you're probably more likely to see Tommy and Luke than I will be
<Red_HamsterX> CoLoCo?
<thumper> Colorado LoCo group
<Red_HamsterX> Nope.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm in Calgary, Alberta.
<Red_HamsterX> Way up in Canada.
<thumper> ah
<godbyk> Okay, I'm awake and in front of my computer again.
<godbyk> Did I miss anything exciting?
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know I have had lectures, this is the most people Ihave seen in the channel
<godbyk> I concur. I think this is the most people I've seen here, too.
 * ubuntujenkins thinks quickly looks so good with the new theme
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: what's quickly?
<sebsebseb> and which theme their are two new ones
<ubuntujenkins> the two new themes are Ambiance and Radiance
<ubuntujenkins> quickly is the program we are working on to make taking the screenshots easier
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: ah, you mean quickshot.
<ubuntujenkins> sorry yes quickshot i get confused between them both
<sebsebseb> !info quickshot
<Red_HamsterX> quickly is the thing that makes my Eee cry in diskspace-related pain. =P
<Red_HamsterX> So, godbyk, do you want me to cobble together an upload system using PHP or WSGI or something, or would you rather handle that?
<Red_HamsterX> (Just something primitive. No user interface at all)
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Sure, go for it!
<godbyk> It's a Linux host and runs php5.
<godbyk> It can also do some python stuff.
<godbyk> but if you use a lot of packages, I'll have to install 'em manually.
<Red_HamsterX> Nah. I'm thinking PHP will be plenty.
<Red_HamsterX> I'll develop it on my system first, then give you the code/find someplace to commit it when it's working.
<Red_HamsterX> I should have a primitive take-screenshot/prompt-user-to-validate-correctness/upload-screenshot/list-remaining-screenshots-to-be-taken routine this weekend.
<Red_HamsterX> That should be enough for us to start tying functionality to the GUI.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: sounds great!
<Red_HamsterX> (I'll then work on adding the full-screen functionality in an intuitive manner, though that will be harder to handle, unless we can enforce a consistent resolution on everyone)
<Red_HamsterX> (I'll need the GUI people for that, though)
<godbyk> I think the GUI guys have been working on setting the resolution automatically.
<godbyk> But we should provide QuickShot with as much info as possible about the screenshots it's to collect.
<godbyk> That way we can reduce the workload of the user.
<godbyk> For instance, if we want them to take a screenshot of, say, the gedit window, we should be able to tell quickshot how to start gedit, where to position it on the screen, what size to set the window to, etc.
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah.
<godbyk> then the user gets to push a 'go ahead and start gedit' button.
<godbyk> and quickshot can detect when gedit is loaded and take the screenshot automatically.
<godbyk> (ideally, that is.)
<Red_HamsterX> That's what I was going to look into after proving that "yes, a screenshot can be captured and uploaded automatically" in code.
<godbyk> cool
<Red_HamsterX> Even better, load gedit with a sample file and (maybe) jump to a certain point within it.
<godbyk> right
<Red_HamsterX> Though that depends on everything captured being GTK and responding to external hints and signals.
<godbyk> basically we want to script as much as possible so we can get as many screenshots in as little time as possible.
<godbyk> plus, the more we can script, the less chance the user has of misinterpreting what we want.
<Red_HamsterX> Yep. I'm totally with you on that.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm just not going to get too far ahead of myself yet.
<Red_HamsterX> I've learned to only take responsibility for what I can deliver by realistic deadlines.
<godbyk> I hear ya.
<godbyk> I haven't jumped into the quickshot dev stuff 'cause I've got my hands full with other aspects of the manual. :)
<Red_HamsterX> Same reason why, even though I'm pretty sure this is the same project I was with five years ago, I'm not willing to volunteer to edit yet.
<Red_HamsterX> Quickshot seems to be more needy, attention-wise.
<Red_HamsterX> (Relative to the skills I possess)
<godbyk> Getting QuickShot up and running will save a lot of time in the long term, that's for sure!
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil, are you around?
<thorwil> godbyk: yes
<godbyk> Do you think we could have icons or something nice for the part pages?
<godbyk> Having just the words is kinda boring.
<godbyk> Maybe incorporate some elements from the title page into the part pages, too.
<thorwil> godbyk: yes, perhaps. i was under the impression that we are not even sure about the margins ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: We're not. I'm playing with layout stuff today.
<godbyk> So if you've got any complaints, suggestions, etc. feel free to lay 'em on me. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: my 2 proposals for A4 (that could be translated for letter) still stand
<thorwil> godbyk: anything non-random, practical and harmonious will do ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: understood.
<godbyk> I think I'm also going to drop the TL2007 support today, too.  So even the normal English doc will require TL2009.
<thorwil> i thought that was already the case
<godbyk> it's effectively the case, yeah.
<godbyk> but I'll be clearing out the TL2007 cruft code.
<godbyk> thorwil: is your page layout sketch in bzr or just on the wiki someplace?
<thorwil> godbyk: it's in my branch
<thorwil> godbyk: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/layout_a4.svg-20100128134918-yenbpm0zvsr3vg5l-1/layout_a4.svg
<godbyk> ah, thanks
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: ping
<dutchie> pong
<ubuntujenkins> do you haev any experince changing lables in python
<dutchie> label.set_text I think
<ubuntujenkins> but how do I tell it so set a specific label? cos self.resolutionsuccess.label19.set_label("Remaining: count_down") doesn't work
<dutchie> do all of those attributes exist?
<dutchie> I think it's self.builder.get_item('label19").set_text()
<dutchie> something like that
<ubuntujenkins> AttributeError: 'gtk.Dialog' object has no attribute 'label19' is my error but that label is clearly called label 19. resolutionsuccess is that window.
<dutchie> try with self.builder.get_item
<ubuntujenkins> trying now
<dutchie> ah, self.builder.get_object
<ubuntujenkins> cool that works thanks how do I set it as a variable?
<dutchie> label19 = self.builder.get_object('label19')
<ubuntujenkins> sorry I ment how do I get set_text("Remaining: 'count_down'")) where count_down is a varable?
<dutchie> look up string interpolation
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks :-)
<dutchie> you'll have to update it whenever the count_down changes
<dutchie> although you could use a progress bar
<ubuntujenkins> a timer is fine as it is only a count down untill you are logged out in 15 seconds
<dutchie> oh, OK
<ubuntujenkins> I am going back to writing once my screen res stuff makes main
<BlessJah> 17
<ubuntujenkins> 18
<dutchie> \o/
<dutchie> josh@ubuntu-manual.org set up and ready to go
<ubuntujenkins> nice :-)
<daker> hi @all
<ubuntujenkins> hello
 * daker is working on Translations(fr)
 * dutchie pokes po4a with a "go faster" stick
<godbyk> dutchie: compiling a translation? or updating the po files?
<dutchie> updating translations
<dutchie> godbyk: why do you ask?
<godbyk> dutchie: Because if there's a LaTeX error in the untranslated stuff, then po4a-translate goes into an infinite loop while trying to translate the text.
<dutchie> oh
<dutchie> that could do with fixing
<godbyk> yeah, it could.
 * ubuntujenkins has mad an attempt to do a python countdown back to writing for me I think
<dutchie> ooh, it's done
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-06
 * daker is listening to: Stromae - Wedanceinfrance.blogspot.com - Alors on danse
 * daker is listening to: POD - Satellite - Youth of the Nation
 * humphreybc is hating on lynx
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: hating on lynx???
<humphreybc> it's pretty ugly, lots of small bugs and stuff in the UI and theme
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: so your hateing lucid
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: themewise it sucks
<humphreybc> well, not that much. for example it's faster than karmic and it fixed my suspend resume issue
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: I don't even get  the new  boot up plymouth theme, not even in the daily build
<sebsebseb> in vm
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: it's ashame that human has been removed :(
<sebsebseb> at least clearlooks is still there though :)
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: in #ubuntu+1  I was given this link earlier http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/45399/hello_kitty_3Jckg6.png
<humphreybc> lol
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: if GDM looked like that it would actsually be better.  Anyway what are they doing trying to make Ubuntu more girly?  Also  the new GDM theme and default background reminds me a bit of Hannah Montana OS based on Kubuntu.
<Red_HamsterX> Hello Kitty theme?! MUST DOWNLOAD!
<sebsebseb> Red_HamsterX: no it's a joke edit of  new GDM, you'll see if you go on the link
<Red_HamsterX> I did. I need a <sarcasm/> tag.
<sebsebseb> Red_HamsterX: oh right ok
<rudi> hey guys, the chapter on prefs-hardware
<rudi> does it still need content to be written?
<rudi> or has it been merged elsewhere?
<ubuntujenkins> hello all
<humphreybc> hi everyone, i just pushed a new revision with a few screenshots from lucid
<humphreybc> they're under lucid-screens in the root directory
<rudi> humpherybc, sweet, ill check it out
<humphreybc> rudi, i replied to your email too
<rudi> oooh, thanks, ill go check it out, humphreybc
<rudi> btw
<rudi> your internet is like greased lightning
<humphreybc> lol
<rudi> 600kB/s :O
<humphreybc> yeah it is pretty quick sometimes ;)
<humphreybc> it got up to 2500 kB/s at one stage
<humphreybc> although only for a few seconds
<rudi> :(
<rudi> here where i am, i am super stoked if it hits 140kB/s sigh
<humphreybc> bummer
<humphreybc> that sucks :(
<humphreybc> so are you going to be at the meeting tomorrow?
<humphreybc> in about 9 hours?
<rudi> aye, 20:00 UTC
<rudi> 22:00 local time
<rudi> i'll be there :)
<rudi> screenshots look good man
<ubuntujenkins> what res did you do the screenshots at humphreybc?
<ubuntujenkins> I can't look at the moment
<humphreybc> just my normal resolution, 1280x800
<humphreybc> i didn't do anything fancy sorry
<ubuntujenkins> thats no problem just wondering
<humphreybc> but i took some of different things, then cropped them so they're different sizes
<humphreybc> there are some small 40kb ones and some large ones of the desktop at about 500kb, and everything in between
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<ubuntujenkins> I am going to get the automatic log out timmer working for quickshot and then get back to writing
<rudi> i'm gonna go find some lunch, i'll be back at some stage this afternoon.
<ubuntujenkins> see you in while
<humphreybc> kk well it's midnight here so i'm going to get some sleep before the 9am meeting
<ubuntujenkins> ok see you then
<daker> hi
<ubuntujenkins> hello
<daker> how r u ?
<ubuntujenkins> good thanks u?
<daker> fine fine :)
<daker> ubuntujenkins, the problem with the countdown in IE is fixed ?
<TommyBrunn> daker - what was the problem?
<ubuntujenkins> I will have a look I am in windows doing cad at the momet. I didn'nt knwo there was a problem
<daker> i dont know, i read it in the TODO list
<daker> Countdown timer thing on ubuntu-manual.org needs to be fixed to work in IE properly
<TommyBrunn> Oh, I think I know what it is.
<TommyBrunn> CSS inconsistencies with margins in IE.
<TommyBrunn> The list probably looks weird in IE.
<ubuntujenkins> it does I am going to post a print screen
<ubuntujenkins> http://imagebin.org/87753 is what it looks like in ie daker
<ubuntujenkins> I will be back in a minute going back to ubuntu
<TommyBrunn> I would open up IE in Wine and check it out myself, but the last time I did that, IE ate up almost a gig of my ram.
<daker> TommyBrunn, hhh
<daker> so the problem is not the countdown, it's the list
<ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster I am trying to move my screenshot stuff to one file but at the moment I have self.resolutionchange.hide() how do I make it call those form the quickshot file in the bin folder?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX ping ^^
<daker> TommyBrunn, i want to give help in website dev
<TommyBrunn> daker - Feel free. It's all in the website/ directory. The countdown-page is in website/countdown/
<TommyBrunn> There are two versions of the main page
<TommyBrunn> The one directly in website/ and the one in website/wolter-remake/
<TommyBrunn> I'm not sure which one were going with, but my vote goes to the wolter-remake.
<TommyBrunn> At this time I'm not sure what needs doing, but I'm sure there's a whole lost of IE-related bugs that you could work on if you know how to.
<TommyBrunn> *host
<daker> the website/ directory http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/?
<TommyBrunn> Do you have a local copy of the bazaar branch?
<daker> no
<TommyBrunn> Do you have bazaar installed?
<daker> yep
<TommyBrunn> Alright, then run bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<TommyBrunn> That will download the ubuntu-manual branch.
<TommyBrunn> In there is the website directory
<daker> bazar is gonna make me crasy :)
<TommyBrunn> bazaar is great compared to any other version control system I've ever used. THOSE can drive you crazy.
<daker> :)
<TommyBrunn> Having problems with your connection, ubuntujenkins?
<ubuntujenkins> yes I haev no clue why i ckeep getting disconnected automatically
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn I have moved all of the screenresolution stuff to a file and imported it into the quickshot file "from quickshot import screenres" but from the screenres file how do I call gui windows?
<TommyBrunn> You can't and shouldn't.
<ubuntujenkins> I thought you would say that so should I leave it all in the maid file then?
<TommyBrunn> Have you commited it to launchpad?
<ubuntujenkins> no not yet I can add it to my branch now if you like
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, do that. I need to see what it is you're doing to be able to give any good advice.
<ubuntujenkins> once i fix the latest error :-)
<TommyBrunn> Alright
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn its in bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot It has changed so that more people can edit it
<TommyBrunn> Checking it out now
<TommyBrunn> ls
<TommyBrunn> Oops
<ubuntujenkins> I find the quickest way to test is change the user in line 127 to my user name and comment out lines 224 227
<ubuntujenkins> thnaks
<dutchie> heh, tried to click the close button in a screenshot
<dutchie> (it didn't work)
<TommyBrunn> Where's the screenres module? I can't seem to find it?
<TommyBrunn> I don't think this has been updated. Because there's no import statement either.
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/389598/ is what the screenres module contains but uploading it will break my branch
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, because it isn't indented properly.
<dutchie> actually, it could be indented properly
<dutchie> it's hard to tell
<dutchie> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/
<ubuntujenkins> I don't think there is an indentation error it works fine but stops when it reaches a window call. I am backing a broken branch so you can see the file its self
<TommyBrunn> I've spotted a bunch of indentation errors already, one of them being right next to a window call.
<TommyBrunn> Every indentation level needs to be 4 spaces.
<TommyBrunn> That's what denotes a block.
<ubuntujenkins> bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-broken
<TommyBrunn> You could indent it differently, but it has to be consistent throughout the document.
<ubuntujenkins> which lines?
<TommyBrunn> 262 and 285 are the ones I remember right now.
<TommyBrunn> And pretty much the entire on_ok_changeres method
<ubuntujenkins> don't worry once this stuff works I am stopping doing python
<daker> TommyBrunn,
<daker> daker@daker-laptop:~$ sudo bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<daker> Permission denied (publickey).
<daker> bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: Unexpected end of message. Please check connectivity and permissions, and report a bug if problems persist.
<ubuntujenkins> you need to add a key to you launchpad use dake
<ubuntujenkins> *user
<TommyBrunn> You need to be authenticated to branch it? I didn't know that.
<dutchie> bzr works over ssh, so you need a key
<TommyBrunn> Ah, of course.
<daker> here is
<daker> https://launchpad.net/~adnane002/+sshkeys
<ubuntujenkins> strange have you got the matching one in your .ssh folder?
<ubuntujenkins> of the pair that is
<daker> i dont know
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins, in the detectgraphics method, could you walk me through how the if statements are supposed to work?
<TommyBrunn> It checks for i915, nouveau and pcieport. If that's true, it opens a subprocess of xrandr. Should the following if statement only be evaluated if the former condition is true, or should it be evaluated either way?
<c7p> hello everyone i don't know if i will be present on the today's meeting so i have a question. When will the next important update be made on launchpad ?
<ubuntujenkins> only if the former is true
<TommyBrunn> Ok, so the elif statement belongs to the first if statement, not the second?
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Then I understand.
<ubuntujenkins> c7p what do you mean by next important update?
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn I just need to get the silly timeout bit working so we can get people testing and then it can make main and I can go back to not writing any python
<TommyBrunn> I pushed a version with fixed indentation. I haven't tested anything though, so I have no idea if anything changed.
<TommyBrunn> Which is the silly timeout bit?
<c7p> by important update i mean the insertion of many strings and also the revision of some strings
<ronald_> hello, what time is the meeting?
<dutchie> now + 6 hours
<ubuntujenkins> sorry I have missed the last 5 minutes of caht my uni internet is failing today
<TommyBrunn> (02:56:52 PM) TommyBrunn: I pushed a version with fixed indentation. I haven't tested anything though, so I have no idea if anything changed.
<TommyBrunn> (02:57:01 PM) TommyBrunn: Which is the silly timeout bit?
<ubuntujenkins> ok which branch? The time out bit that will show in the self.resolutionsuccess.show() window label 19. counting down from 15 to 0. and if it reaches 0 before the user presses the next buton they are loged out
<TommyBrunn> luke-quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will get it now
<ubuntujenkins> some stuff is there from line 282 but I can't get it working I had allot of help from people as usua
<ronald_> dutchie confirm 10 pm Zimbabwean time
 * dutchie is unsure what zimbabwean time is
<dutchie> UTC+2?
<ronald_> GMT +2
<dutchie> yes then
<TommyBrunn> Alright, ubuntujenkins, I'll have a look at it. Is there anything I need to change in order to be able to test your branch out? Like directory names or anything?
<ronald_> thanks, looking forward to be part of the meeting
<dutchie> UTC==GMT for all intents and purposes
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn no as long as you do quickly run -r the  first tme you will be fine it is all set to point at my branch
<TommyBrunn> Alright, goodie.
<ubuntujenkins> your resolution should change btw
<daker> the website will be Multi-Languages or not ?
<godbyk> daker: Hopefully it'll be multilingual, yeah.
<daker> oki
<daker> TommyBrunn, i got the branch
<TommyBrunn> Alright, daker. What were you planning to work on: the countdown page or the main website?
<daker> the main website
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Then I think you should probably ask someone who actually knows what's going on, which one of the two versions you should be working on. Whom that would be, I can't really say. Benjamin is a safe bet, but he doesn't seem to be here (as it is currently 3am where he lives).
<TommyBrunn> What's your level of web design/development experience?
<daker> web design we can say 6/10 developement 8/10
<daker> TommyBrunn, ?
<TommyBrunn> Heh, that's not very detailed, I'm afraid. Anyway, how's your experience dealing with Internet Explorer related CSS quirks?
<TommyBrunn> Oh, and I'm going to disappear for a bit. I'm going to try Ubuntujenkins' code.
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks TommyBrunn
<daker> TommyBrunn, one question, the top image doesnt appear in FF and opera, it's work in Chrome
<TommyBrunn> Huh? What are you talking about? In which version and which page?
<daker> the countdown version
<TommyBrunn> That's very odd, because it works just fine for me in both Firefox and Epiphany.
<daker> i can give you screen
<TommyBrunn> Sure.
<komsas> godbyk: can you look to this error, I can't to make manual LT version. http://paste.ubuntu.com/389625/
<godbyk> komsas: Sure, lemme look.
<godbyk> Hmm.. weird.
<godbyk> Lemme try.
<godbyk> komsas: there's a bug in the main (English) translation.
<godbyk> lemme fix it real quick.
<komsas> godbyk: thank u :)
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins - Do you remember how to make the user log out (or if you can revert back to the old resolution, that would be best)?
<TommyBrunn> I think I've got the countdown working now.
<daker> TommyBrunn, http://imagebin.org/87766
<TommyBrunn> What is the image you can't see?
<TommyBrunn> Oh, I see!
<TommyBrunn> The top margin seems to be missing
<daker> yeah
<daker> both in FF and Opera
<godbyk> komsas: okay, a lot of bugs.  still fixing 'em..
<TommyBrunn> I suspect it has something to do with your resolution. What resolution do you currently have set?
<daker> 1024x768
<daker> screen 15'4
<daker> laptop
<komsas> godbyk: gl, say when I can push..
<TommyBrunn> Wow, that's low. But it does explain why it occurs.
 * komsas pull *
<godbyk> komsas: I just pushed.
<TommyBrunn> See, it's very difficult to align something vertically consistently over several browsers. The technique I've used is to first align it to 50% of the user's viewport, which in your case I'm guessing is around 300px. But as it aligns it by the top, that would put all the content very low. So in order to properly align it, a negative top-margin is added - about half the height of the content.
<TommyBrunn> So if the content box is 600px high, the top-margin would be set to -300
<TommyBrunn> That would effectively put the box smack dab in the middle.
<TommyBrunn> In our case the top margin is -325px
<TommyBrunn> Which puts the very top of our website slightly outside of your viewport.
<TommyBrunn> My guess is that Chrome probably auto-expands the viewport to accomodate for this content.
<daker> TommyBrunn, i'll work on the countdown
<daker> oki ?
<TommyBrunn> Sure thing. What were you planning to do?
<TommyBrunn> There is an IE bug with the list that I would very much appreciate it if you could have a look at.
<daker> oki
<TommyBrunn> Open it up in Internet Explorer 6-8 and you'll see what the problem is.
<daker> oki
<daker> second thing i'll fix the bugg with margins
<TommyBrunn> The top margin?
<daker> yea
<daker> h
<TommyBrunn> The only way to "fix" it is to set it to a static margin.
<TommyBrunn> Which is probably fine, seeing as how it takes up most of anyone's viewport (vertically) anyway.
<daker> oki
<TommyBrunn> Simply remove the top margin and change the value of "top" in the .center class (line 71) to 100px or so.
<daker> oki
<komsas> godbyk: now ok ;) do you got and read my lithuanian latex description, it fit your needs?
<godbyk> komsas: I haven't seen it. Where's it at?
<komsas> I send it to you 2 weaks ago.
<godbyk> Ah, let me look.
<godbyk> komsas: Yeah, I did get it. Let me see if I've done anything with it yet. :-)
<godbyk> (So many translations!)
<godbyk> Nope, haven't done anything with it yet.
<godbyk> Let me plug that in real quick and see what I can screw up. ;-)
<komsas> when you have a time, i see it will be required in the end of this project. :)
<TommyBrunn> Are you there, ubuntujenkins?
<TommyBrunn> Oh, it seems he isn't.
<godbyk> Hey, komsas.. are Roman numerals okay for part numbers?  (Such as: Part I: Getting Started  and  Part II: Advanced.)
<komsas> godbyk: yes, we use them :)
<godbyk> komsas: Cool. Makes my life easier. :-)
<komsas> hehe :)
<godbyk> For the "To:" translation, what does your email program use?
<godbyk> Where it has, To: godbyk, From: komsas, Subject: translations.
<komsas> when we writting leter, in field To: is written "Kam"
<godbyk> Okay.
<daker> godbyk, question
<komsas> but in that link (in letter) where is written "To", they don't translate it. I think it done with the idea.
<daker> i can make changes on the code of the countdown version or i have to correct the buggs only
<godbyk> komsas: I just emailed you a test PDF with the Lithuanian translations. Can you look over it to make sure everything's okay?
<godbyk> daker: What changes would you like to make?
 * komsas going to look..
<ubuntujenkins> hello I am back what have i missed since 14.35? I have had to go to a lab to get a connection
<daker> i would to remove the "dl" "dd" and "dt" and i want to use "div"
<godbyk> daker: Sure, go for it!  It's not a real definition list anyway.
<daker> oki
<daker> tanks
<godbyk> daker: You should test all of the countdown code locally before you push though, as that site gets updated automatically every 30 minutes. :)
<daker> oki
<dutchie> godbyk: you like living on the edge
<godbyk> dutchie: heh.. I'm just too lazy to update it manually. :)
<ubuntujenkins> If i can't make the meeting due to lack of internet can some one please send my apoligies
<komsas> godbyk: it's my mistake (sorry), first letter of all months must be lower case. Traslations okey.
<godbyk> komsas: Okay, I can fix that real quick.
<godbyk> komsas: I sent you an updated version.
<godbyk> komsas: Also, did I get your name and email address correct in the first line of the LDF file?
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn sory my internet died I have gone to a lab to get connection. To restore the users previous resolution would be way to hard but to log them out use "gnome-session-save --kill --silent" we may have to add a button to skip automatic resolution change
<komsas> godbyk: updated version - okey, my name ad email correct :)
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins the problem with the countdown seems harder than I first anticipated. I had no problem implementing it in just an interactive terminal, but it just refuses to work when I try it live in Quickshot.
<TommyBrunn> We might just have to skip displaying the seconds to the user, and simply say: "If you don't press 'next' in 15 seconds, you will be logged out" and then just log them out if they don't do anything in 15 seconds.
<TommyBrunn> My problem is getting the window to update the number.
<ubuntujenkins> we may have to.
<ubuntujenkins> I am just looking at your changes
<godbyk> komsas: I've pushed the LDF. If you compile the ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf again, it should have Lithuanian names for the table of contents, chapter cross-references, index, etc.
<godbyk> komsas: Let me know if you notice any problems.
<komsas> oh, nice I'm going to try :) thanks
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn I have spotted an error that means the quickshot user isn't automatically updating the branch
<TommyBrunn> Really? Where?
<ubuntujenkins> line 172 should read os.system('cd /home/quickshot/quickshot && bzr pull lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/quickshot/luke-quickshot')
<TommyBrunn> Oh yeah, you're right.
<daker> TommyBrunn, i solved the problem with the margin, it works on FF opera Chrome and IE
<TommyBrunn> daker; great. What did you do?
<ubuntujenkins> my fault I missed it when I made the permisson change on the branch
<daker> tested with IE8
<TommyBrunn> Do you mean the margin problem with the top not being shown at low resolutions, or the problem with the list?
<daker> the margin problem with the top not being shown at low resolutions
<TommyBrunn> And what changes did you make to the .center class?
<daker> .center {
<daker>    width: 430px;
<daker>    height: auto;
<daker>    /*position: absolute;
<daker>    left: 50%;
<daker>    top: 50%;
<daker>    margin-left: -215px;
<daker>    margin-top: -325px;*/
<daker>    margin: -100px auto;
<daker>    background-image: url(middlebg.png);
<daker> }
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins can you fix the update problem and push to your branch?
<daker> and in you should remove the comment on the top of index.html
<TommyBrunn> daker I'm afraid that's not the right way to go about it.
<ubuntujenkins> sure  will do so now
<daker> TommyBrunn, why
<TommyBrunn> Because you're just adding one margin onto another.
<TommyBrunn> daker you're right about the margin though. Geany put that in there automatically, and I didn't think of removing it.
<TommyBrunn> *comment
<TommyBrunn> Not margin
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn I have made the change
<TommyBrunn> Great.
<daker> i tested on my desktop (17')and it's work fine
<TommyBrunn> daker Try doing a bzr pull now.
<TommyBrunn> How big your screen is doesn't matter.
<TommyBrunn> It's the resolution that matters.
<TommyBrunn> Either way, I remove the top margin and changed the value of the absolute positioning instead.
<TommyBrunn> Now it should work just fine.
<daker> how can i pull it ?
<komsas> somone know where to mark mistakes in ubuntu manual content, like ``Try Ubuntu without any change to your computer' this string is changed in bootloader to "Try Ubuntu without installing" ?
<komsas> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual ?
<TommyBrunn> daker: you go to the ubuntu-manual directory and run bzr pull
<komsas> godbyk or dutchie ?
<daker> TommyBrunn, oki
<godbyk> komsas: I'm here.
<komsas> do you know something about my question?
<dutchie> komsas: change it yourself :)
<dutchie> this is open source
<godbyk> komsas: You can either edit the file yourself or file a bug.
<komsas> oh, one of best solutions :)
<daker> TommyBrunn, done
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Now try that and see how it looks.
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn if you type self.count -= 1 in line 234 instead of the line thats there, the window updates the count but it only shows when it reaches 0
<TommyBrunn> Oh f*ck, of course it should be self.count. That was dumb of me. xD
<komsas> dutchie: I will try to configure bzr, now I can't to push.
<komsas> thanks
<ubuntujenkins_la> don't worry
<TommyBrunn> But yeah, I figured it wouldn't actually update the GUI until it broke out of the loop.
<ubuntujenkins_la> which is anoying
<TommyBrunn> The only way I know you can solve it is by running a separate thread for the countdown - and I'm certainly not opening that can of worms.
<ubuntujenkins_la> rickspencer3 in #ubuntu-app-devel helped me with the original stuff that was there but he isn't arounf
<TommyBrunn> I'm off to make dinner.
<TommyBrunn> Bye all!
<ubuntujenkins_la> ok thanks for your help see you in abit
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins_la I just had an idea. You could try using a the current time, rather than time.sleep()
<TommyBrunn> Something like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/389683/
 * TommyBrunn goes back to the kitchen
 * ubuntujenkins tries Tommy's suggestion
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn no difference i am afraid the window shows at the end and says remaning 1.0728836059e-05 lol
<TommyBrunn> Haha, that's what I figured. There is a method in the time module that's called timer. I know that runs in another thread, and it might be easier to use. You might want to look into that.
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will look when I have finished desgining this frame
 * daker is listening to: David Guetta feat. Kid Kudi - Memories - Enjoystation
<ubuntujenkins_la> I am off back home apparently the internet is back
<semioticrobotic> are we meeting in here or in ubuntu-meeting?
<nisshh> in #ubuntu-meeting in one hour according to dutchie
<dutchie> no, it's in 5 minutes
<godbyk> nisshh: Actually, it'll be in just a few minutes.
<Rudi-> I thought it was at 2000 UCT?
<dutchie> #ubuntu-meeting ceases to be free in an hour
<godbyk> Rudi-: It is.
<Rudi-> which is in about 4/5 minutes
<nisshh> oh hehe you lot said an hour, got me all mixed up
<dutchie> my fault
<dutchie> sorry, I was unclear
<semioticrobotic> whew ... thought showed up an hour early!
<nisshh> hehe
<Rudi-> haha
<Rudi-> well :)
<nisshh> where the heck is benjamin
<Rudi-> it is going to be here? or over at Ubuntu-meeting?
<nisshh> it should be here
<Rudi-> is jaminday here?
 * dutchie thinks that we won't keep it to an hour
<nisshh> we will need more than an hour
 * dutchie votes in here
<nisshh> no
 * Rudi- agrees with dutchie
<semioticrobotic> here is fine with me
 * daker dutchie +1 
<nisshh> +1
<godbyk> I prefer meetings in here if possible. Means we don't have to worry about going over schedule.
 * nisshh agrees with godbyk
 * Rudi- agrees with nisshh
<nisshh> has anyone been able to get hold of benjamin
<godbyk> nisshh: Not yet; I'm trying. :)
<nisshh> ok
 * Rudi- cannots get hold of benjamin either!
<dutchie> it's only 9:00 for him too :)
<Rudi-> Seems like jaminday is on his way
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> meh its 4am here
<Rudi-> its 22:00 here
<nisshh> yaya there we go
<semioticrobotic> 3 pm here
<humphreybc> balsfhoajsf hi everyone :)
<Rudi-> nisshh, you are one committed dude
<dutchie> are we hanging around for jamin then
<thorwil> hi
<Ell> hello
 * nisshh thanks rudi
<Rudi-> hey benjamin
<humphreybc> okay should we get this party started?
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> Hey, humphreybc showed up! :)
<nisshh> yeeessss
<semioticrobotic> let's do this thing
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<Rudi-> what about jaminday?
<nisshh> good turnout this time too
<humphreybc> i think he'll show up at some point
<Rudi-> sweet
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:06. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<humphreybc> hehehe
<nisshh> hehe good timing
<humphreybc> hey jaminday1 we just started
<Rudi-> 200t
<jaminday1> excellent. Just woke up
<humphreybc> so, first thing is a progress report. this is basically "how are we doing?"
<nisshh> should we go by chapter?
<humphreybc> yep
<Rudi-> I guess
<humphreybc> that sounds like a good idea
<humphreybc> oh does anyone want to take notes?
<dutchie> humphreybc: isn't that what MootBot is for
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> okay i'll utilize him more :)
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Progress report by chapter
<MootBot> New Topic:  Progress report by chapter
<humphreybc> so, prologue
<dutchie> humphreybc: all IRC bots are female ;)
<humphreybc> oh yeah, oops, forgot :)
<dutchie> OK, let's get on with it then
<dutchie> who's on the prologue?
<humphreybc> prologue.. well, i think i've done about 90% of it. all that's missing is a key to commands
<humphreybc> yours truly :)
<dutchie> could that sort of thing be automated?
<jaminday1> And editing needs another once or twice over from me
<humphreybc> godbyk?
<dutchie> actually, it doesn't need to be
<godbyk> What key?
<humphreybc> we just need a small list of what this formatting means, what this formatting means, etc
<dutchie> "A shell prompt looks like this:"
<dutchie> etc
<godbyk> Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I can do that.
<humphreybc> neat :)
<humphreybc> probably just stick it at the end of the prologue
<godbyk> It's called 'nomenclature'. :)
<humphreybc> well well don't get all fancy on us!
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> okay so that's all good for chap 1?
<Rudi-> its late here:P please don't use too many big words!
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> prologue
 * humphreybc only woke up 8 mins ago, please be kind :)
 * semioticrobotic laughs
<humphreybc> now, chapter 1. installation. i'm writing that, got most of it finished bar the partitioning
 * nisshh says its 4am for him so dont have a sad
 * Rudi- pats humpherybc
<humphreybc> nisshh: boo!
<humphreybc> so I think Rudi is going to work on the partitioning?
<Rudi-> I think I am responsible for the partitioning
<nisshh> sorry couldnt resist
<Rudi-> yea, ok
<Rudi-> i'll write that section
<Rudi-> :)
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> it just needs to be really easy to understand so they don't go and overwrite their vista parition if they want to dual boot...
<jaminday1> Is Parry here?
<humphreybc> there are some screenshots of the partitioning bit in lucid-screens
<Ell> On chapter 1 would it be better to have the 32 bit or 64 bit section from chapter 9 into chapter 1 as new users who dont know which bit to pick at the start can be confusing and its right down at chapter 9 at the current time
<humphreybc> jaminday1: i don't think so
<Rudi-> ok cool, I'll do it basic like.
<jaminday1> Parry is allocated editor for chapter 1 but haven't heard from him for a while
<humphreybc> Ell: that's a good point
<humphreybc> what do we think?
<Rudi-> I'll add in a bit of RED DANGER! Do not edit your partitions if you are not 99% sure of what you are doing?
<humphreybc> maybe a quick margin note explaining 64/32?
<humphreybc> and then to see more go to chap 9?
<dutchie> Rudi-: 100% surely
<jaminday1> humphreybc: agreed
<dutchie> or 99%, with backups
<humphreybc> Rudi: yep, danger danger danger!
<semioticrobotic> sure, but the explanation in chapter 9 is already sparse as it is :)
<humphreybc> okay so we need to improve the explanation in chap 9
<humphreybc> btw everyone join this: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<semioticrobotic> of course, having 32/64 stuff up front might give us an excuse to add more detail in that area to chap 9
<Ell> yes agreed
<humphreybc> we need to add this stuff as we go
<Rudi-> dutchie, ok i'll make it 100%, but I was never 100% sure when I first started out, will mention backing up NB data and what not
<dutchie> definitely mention backups
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> so apart from that, anyone else have any feedback on the installation chapter?
<Rudi-> dutchie, will do so
<Rudi-> humpherybc, i had a look at it, its pretty well done
 * humphreybc 's lucid mouse pointer keeps changing back to crappy DMZ instead of whiteglass and it's so annoying
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> well, moving on?
<mattatk_> do we still need some screenshots, or are those yet to be added?
<humphreybc> chapter 2
<humphreybc> mattatk_: those are yet to be added, but there are some test shots in lucid-screens in the branch
<humphreybc> so, around your desktop
<nisshh> hey ilya
<Rudi-> Should all the screenies be the same size and resolution?
<jaminday1> IlyaHaykinson: hi
<humphreybc> i think 41 people in the room is a record!
 * semioticrobotic cheers
<humphreybc> Rudi-: yep they will be, that's the job for the quickshot peeps :)
<IlyaHaykinson> hi folks. my kid is sick, so i will be in and out of the chat.
<ubuntujenkins> Rudi- quicksshot is at the end
<Rudi-> humpherybc, ok cool
<humphreybc> ah, such a burden, them kids
<humphreybc> okay so alistair munro bailed on us, tom is still around but pretty busy with his job
<humphreybc> Ben VB is apparently editing it according to the wiki?
<jaminday1> yes I think he is still active
<humphreybc> okay
<jaminday1> sometimes i don't hear anything for a while but they are still working away
<humphreybc> so content wise, how complete do we think it is?
<Rudi-> the whole thing? or just chapter 2?
<humphreybc> chapter 2
<Rudi-> hmm
<jaminday1> sorry i'm having issues pulling the branch onto my laptop so i can't open any content at the moment
<humphreybc> yeah me too
<Ell> I think it looks pretty good, it just needs general editing though, like the recent bugs with window buttons going from right to left etc
<humphreybc> i don't think i set bzr up properly again after reinstalling lucid
<nisshh> meh ssh key?
<humphreybc> yeah i've copied that across
<humphreybc> sort of works
<Ell> and Nautilus File Browser gets called just "File Browser" in ubuntu
<nisshh> does it give an error?
<humphreybc> Ell: hmm, okay. I think the controls won't stay on the left
<ubuntujenkins> Chapter 3?
<Ell> okay good aswell then
<humphreybc> so chapter 2 just needs some touch ups
<godbyk> We should probably add a screenshot of the full desktop to show where the panels, menus, etc. are.
<Rudi-> godbyk, good idea
<jaminday1> And i need to confirm whether BenVB is still with us as editor
<mattatk_> the software center may deserve its own screenshot as well
<humphreybc> yep, it will
<godbyk> So if someone wants to, they can add more \screenshotTODO's to the chapter.
<humphreybc> so feel free to edit the to do list to add some of these things guys
<godbyk> (Or anywhere else you think one is required, for the matter.)
<humphreybc> we have a soft limit of about 50 screenshots in total for the manual
<jaminday1> humphreybc: how many we up to now?
<Rudi-> is that to keep the size down?
<semioticrobotic> probably a good idea, if we're concerned with overall size
<nisshh> i think the manual is already massive without them too
<humphreybc> for two reasons, 1. size and 2. x 47 languages = over 2000
<nisshh> around 17mb i think currently
<humphreybc> 17mb for the PDF?
<Rudi-> Agreed, 2000 different screenshots could become nightmarish
<semioticrobotic> plus, if we're serious about getting the manual included in L+1 by default, we're going to need a slim file
<dutchie> how much can the pdf be optimised for size?
<nisshh> no the bzr branch
<ubuntujenkins> pdf is at 1.1mb for me
<humphreybc> oh yeah the bzr branch is huge cos it has a whole heap of PSD files for the website and stuff
<godbyk> There are 34 \screenshotTODOs so far.
<humphreybc> nisshh: i'm getting a could not acquire lock bzr error when trying to pull
<Rudi-> Hmm, thats quite low
<godbyk> The main (English) pdf is 1.2 MB right now (sans screenshots).
<humphreybc> yeah but if we want inclusion on the CD we have to aim for <2mb
<jaminday1> godbyk: ok so there is a bit of wiggle room for adding more but not much. Someone probably needs to go through and cull some existing ones as well if they aren't necessary
<nisshh> humphreybc: thats a common error, try deleting your local branch and re-getting the branch
<godbyk> jaminday1: That's the PDF without the screenshots. Adding screenshots will increase the size a bit.
<humphreybc> kk
<jaminday1> Wow doesn't seem much chance of keeping it under 2mb then?
<humphreybc> i guess we'll just have to see how it turns out. we're going to have to be really stringent on what screenshots we decide on
<semioticrobotic> I doubt it :-/
<semioticrobotic> why the 2mb limit?  did we get that number from someone?
<Rudi-> thats what I want to know as well
<humphreybc> nope, i just made it up
<humphreybc> :)
<Rudi-> haha
<dutchie> 2.5 is the new arbritary limit then :)
<semioticrobotic> ha!  okay then.  jsut wondering
<humphreybc> pitivi is like 300kb and even that was a sell to get on the CD
<nisshh> just means we really have to keep it small for the cd
<humphreybc> i was thinking
<humphreybc> we could split up the two halves for the CF
<humphreybc> CD*
<humphreybc> and just include the first half
<Rudi-> hmmm
<humphreybc> if they get picky about size
<Rudi-> sound like a good idea
<Rudi-> *sounds
<nisshh> what and second half web based?
<ubuntu> hi there guys. I'm translating ubuntu manual, and this string just come up: https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/+pots/ubuntu-manual/pt/140/+translate
<semioticrobotic> maybe a link in the manual to download the advanced topics.
<jaminday1> humphreybc: i think let's just finish it first then see how big it is and decide from there....
<humphreybc> yeah, good idea
<ubuntu> should i translate it or pass it?
<humphreybc> just something to think about
 * nisshh agrees with jaminday
<Rudi-> [AGREED]
 * Rudi- agrees with nisshh and jaminday
<humphreybc> dutchie, could you help danyR?
<humphreybc> okay so moving on
<dutchie> danyR: we're in a meeting now, can I PM?
<humphreybc> default applications
<danyR> dutchie: yeah :)
<humphreybc> i think this chapter is rockin'
<ubuntujenkins> I have gwibber to write now it works
<jaminday1> yeah it's massive so far!
<semioticrobotic> I agree.  Great looking chapter
<ubuntujenkins> mattgriffin is doing ubuntu one and rythambox
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> so nothing wrong with it then :)
<humphreybc> chapter 4, prefs/hardware
<Rudi-> nope
<IlyaHaykinson> well on chapter 3
<ubuntujenkins> I have quickscan and Brasero to do
<dutchie> music store?
<IlyaHaykinson> we are not going to include Open Office
<Rudi-> I've started writing some stuff for it, (chap 4)
<dutchie> is that covered?
<mattgriffin_> mattgriffin has music store covered
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie mattgriffin_ is doing that I think
<IlyaHaykinson> Rudi -- one comment basd on some checkins that i've seen...
<IlyaHaykinson> you may want to dumb it down a LOT
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. somewhere you included command line stuff
<IlyaHaykinson> assume that the person is a total noob
<humphreybc> oh yeah, everyone, no command line stuff before the advanced part
<IlyaHaykinson> and even after the command line section, still very little if possible
<jaminday1> Yeah we want to stick totally GUI in first half
<Rudi-> Oki doki, I'll go through it again
<godbyk> The title for chapter 3 always seems weird to me. I don't know what 'default applications' are.  Shouldn't we just call it Applications or Pre-installed Applications?  'Default' is kinda techy.
<ubuntujenkins> I haev a bit for vatching dvds
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<mattatk_> echo 'ok'
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: good point. i would rename as well
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yes, let's change it
<IlyaHaykinson> but I wouldn't rename to "Applications"
<Ell> Yes agree
<semioticrobotic> nice point
<IlyaHaykinson> but more like "Working with Ubuntu"
<IlyaHaykinson> or soemthing more use-case driven
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, just something friendlier but that still gives someone an idea of what's in the chapter.
<ubuntujenkins> I have a command line part for watching dvds to install libdvdcss or what ever it is
<IlyaHaykinson> people don't care that there's firefox and there's gwibber. they care that they can browse the web and update their twitter status
<godbyk> "Working with Ubuntu" may be too generic.
<humphreybc> totally
<humphreybc> well we don't want it sounding too cheesy
<IlyaHaykinson> well, i really don't think that anyone cares even a little bit that there are such things as applications in the world
<jaminday1> What abouyt "Using PRograms"
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: don't want what sounding cheesy?  I just joined
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't know if people even think there's a common name for programs
<semioticrobotic> "Using Ubuntu Applications"?
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: title for chapter 3
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: the manual should mention how to get the icons back on the right
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: lol, don't worry
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: maybe even how to enable the icons that are missing in system menu as well :)
<godbyk> sebsebseb: I think the icons default to the right, still.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: no
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk they are not
<humphreybc> godbyk, nah they don't but they're not going to keep it that way
<humphreybc> !ot
<semioticrobotic> icons are going back to the right?
<manualbot> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<semioticrobotic> oops
<IlyaHaykinson> hang on, let me check how Windows handled this.
<godbyk> Fair enough. Fill me in afterward. :)
 * semioticrobotic blushes
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: You can complain as much as you like and other people, but they willl probably still keep them on the left, and in an odd order.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: totally go and check out the windows 98 manual :D
<IlyaHaykinson> Windows 95 :)
<humphreybc> haha
<Rudi-> windows 3.1
<humphreybc> even worse xD
<Rudi-> :D
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: If your going to complain make sure it's on Launchpad and the correct place.
<nisshh> hehe
<semioticrobotic> I have a Win 3.1 manual right here
<humphreybc> i like it how we're going off a windows 95 manual
<IlyaHaykinson> chapter titles are: "Welcome", "The Basics", "Beyond the Basics", "Introducing Networks", "The Possibilities", "Appendixes"
<humphreybc> cos that's the way to do it...
<Rudi-> awesome :)
<nisshh> dont make me puke with disgust on my win 3.1 cd...please
<IlyaHaykinson> well, MS certainly did a lot more research on good tech writing than we did :)
 * semioticrobotic laughs
<dutchie> "Appendixes"?
<IlyaHaykinson> even in those days
<IlyaHaykinson> yup.
<jaminday1> hehe
<IlyaHaykinson> so, er, i would still go for "Working with Ubuntu"
<godbyk> dutchie: No one uses proper Latin endings anymore. :(
<humphreybc> okay okay
<Rudi-> Why don't we use "The Basics"? as a title/
<Rudi-> ?
<dutchie> godbyk: :(
<mattatk_> or how about just "Ubuntu Applications"?
<humphreybc> well the basics would really be chapter 2
<godbyk> As long as I'm complaining about titles, I think Part 1 (Start Here) should be renamed to "Getting Started".
<humphreybc> and then "beyond the basics" would be chapter 3
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: The channel number has gone up quite a bit since I was last in here, why because there's some sort of meeting going on at the moment?
<jaminday1> I like "Working with Ubuntu"
<godbyk> So that's it's not an imperative statement.
<ubuntujenkins> sebsebseb yes
<humphreybc> godbyk yeah you can just go and change that now
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: yes, there is a meeting
<dutchie> no, don't change anything, it'll screw up my commits
<dutchie> :(
<humphreybc> hahah
<semioticrobotic> hahaha
<godbyk> dutchie: no worries. I'll do it later.
<humphreybc> okay well, wait for josh, and then change it
<jaminday1> godbyk: yeah i agree
<humphreybc> alright we're going to have to move on
<Rudi-> chap4?
<humphreybc> because we're 40 mins through the meeting and still on the first damn agenda thing
<humphreybc> stick the names on the to do list, we'll have a think about them and change them later today or tomorrow
<godbyk> did we settle on a title for chap3 or deal with it later?
<godbyk> okay
<jaminday1> godbyk: decide later
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins:  humphreybc ok
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: meeting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<humphreybc> okay so chap 4
<humphreybc> who's writing this now?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: hrm ok
<nisshh> no idea
<Rudi-> I don't know?
<humphreybc> cute
<Rudi-> I had a look at it earlier today
<godbyk> I'm not sure who's been writing chapter 4 lately, but they should brush up on some LaTeX.  They can email me if they need a tutorial.
<Rudi-> and its empty
<Rudi-> godbyk
<humphreybc> wiki says deon spengler but he disappeared ages ago
<Rudi-> its prob me
<godbyk> (I had to edit a bunch of LateX-related bugs in ch4 earlier today).
<Rudi-> i dont have latex
<humphreybc> godbyk, yeah i saw that
<Rudi-> just gedit
<humphreybc> Rudi-: i have gedit too
<ubuntujenkins> I am doing some chapter 4
<Rudi-> and I don't have the bandwidth to download it
<godbyk> Rudi-: Ah, 'kay. Hit me up after the meeting. I'll fill you in. :)
<humphreybc> you just need to know the list of commands to use :)
<ubuntujenkins> I have no latex problems I check before up load
<Rudi-> godbyk, sorry man. Yes please, some commnands would ben nice :)
<godbyk> Rudi-:  no worries. I've got a tutorial around I'll give to ya.
<jaminday1> Also see here for list of commands: http://etherpad.com/JqY9NtbB7b
<IlyaHaykinson> also, Rudi, instead of Xscan there's a new scanning app in Lucid
<humphreybc> "Simple Scan"
<humphreybc> it's really quite simple
<ubuntujenkins> I was going to write that
<nisshh> hehe
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: i thought you were going to do printing?
<ubuntujenkins> feel free to write it Rudi-
<Rudi-> write what?
<ubuntujenkins> I can do printing
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: i think this would be the highest priority
<humphreybc> so the first bit in chapter four with the list of commands, that has to go
<godbyk> The hardware identification section may need to be moved or rewritten to use GUI alternatives (if available). We're trying to avoid command-line stuff this early, aren't we?
<ubuntujenkins> ok I will do prining thats cool
<humphreybc> it can be moved to troubleshooting
<Rudi-> Ok, godbyk
<humphreybc> something like "how do i know what my hardware is?" etc
<Rudi-> is there even a decent GUI app for that stuff?
<humphreybc> nah
<godbyk> Rudi-: I think there's a GUI for lshw, but I don't recall.
<humphreybc> so preferences and hardware is 4 (four!) pages long
<Rudi-> I couldn't find one on my default Lucid install
<ubuntujenkins> I will get some done this week
<dutchie> !info lshw-gtk
<humphreybc> we need some manpower for chap 4
<IlyaHaykinson> i think that the most important hardware parts are 1) printing, 2) displays, 3) sound, 4) CDs/DVDs, 5) scanning, 6) other topics
 * dutchie pokes manualbot 
<humphreybc> !manualbotwakup
<manualbot> Factoid 'manualbotwakup' not found
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we have a start on the displays bit already
<IlyaHaykinson> and the other things that ubuntujenkins and Rudi- are working on
<dutchie> well, that's the package anyway
<humphreybc> okay so chap 4 will make it, just
<Ell> I will help out in chapter 4 if any help is needed
<ubuntujenkins> I will get printing and brasero done this week
<Rudi-> So, what are we going to RE: identifying hardware section?
<humphreybc> jaminday1 and IlyaHaykinson: you'll have to keep an eye on it
<jaminday1> humphreybc: no problem.
<IlyaHaykinson> I recommend that anything that isn't well on its way to completion by end of next week is getting cut
<IlyaHaykinson> for this edition
<Rudi-> is the content freeze still set for the 21st?
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yeah that's a good idea. we don't want stuff in there that's low quality if it hasn't been edited
<humphreybc> Rudi-: yep
<jaminday1> IlyaHaykinson: agreed - we can't keep adding new content right up until writing freeze or we will never get there.
<IlyaHaykinson> what i recommend is that after the translation freeze we branch
<IlyaHaykinson> and start working on the second edition
<IlyaHaykinson> that way we keep the momentum going for the english language writers
<IlyaHaykinson> even while the manual itself is getting translated and finalized
<humphreybc> Rudi-: get rid of the identifying your hardware commands. copy and paste it into a new txt document somewhere and we might put it into the troubleshooting chapter
<humphreybc> and IlyaHaykinson that's the best damn idea i've heard
<nisshh> ilya: normally the release gets branched from trunk
<jaminday1> IlyaHaykinson: yeah that's a great idea
<nisshh> not the other way around
<godbyk> the section headings in ch4 should be made more consistent.
<humphreybc> nisshh: oh well, we're different
<Red_HamsterX> So, nisshh, keep everything running in trunk concurrent with all new development, then branch prior to freezing with each future release?
<nisshh> hehe, its just easier
<godbyk> either a list of hardware devices (singular or plural) or actions (e.g., Burning CDs and DVDs)
<Rudi-> humphreybc, oki doki thats fine
 * humphreybc has a feeling this is gonna be a long meeting
<godbyk> humphreybc: they always are. :)
 * ubuntujenkins ditto
 * Rudi- agrees
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: actually, that's true.
<semioticrobotic> always long meetings on IRC ... just the nature of the beast
<jaminday1> Should we keep moving...
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> um add the bzr branch stuff to the to do list
<nisshh> branch after translation freeze and the then final touches can be made on that branched branch
<humphreybc> we'll think about how to work it
<nisshh> that way the trunk stays pristine
<humphreybc> nisshh: that could work yeah
<Rudi-> sounds good to me
<dutchie> todo list updated
<humphreybc> okay chapter 5. my understanding is that the content is all there, it just needs a bit of a shuffle
<nisshh> yea, that way it doesnt get mixed with some 10.04 and some 10.10
<humphreybc> nisshh: we'll probably release a second edition for 10.04, or a second impression
<nisshh> who is on ch5
<humphreybc> wolter wrote most of it but he's buggered off
<Rudi-> Offtopic: is gnome 3 scheduled for release in 10.10? or is that still speculation?
<jaminday1> humphreybc: permanently?
<humphreybc> Rudi-: the ubuntu guys don't want to use gnome 3 if it's going to have gnome shell
<nisshh> correct gnome3 is supposed to be in 10.10
<humphreybc> jaminday1: not permanently, he's still working on the website now... i think he's just sick of writing
<jaminday1> ah ok fair enough
<Rudi-> cool, thanks
<jaminday1> I can have a crack at adding the upgrading/updating stuff if you like
<humphreybc> he's done a good job with chap 5, like all the latex commands are there and stuff
<humphreybc> yeah that would be good
 * humphreybc is hungry
 * Rudi- wants to sleep
<humphreybc> lol
<jaminday1> fingers crossed i can find the time ;-)
 * nisshh is excited
<humphreybc> nisshh: ?
<IlyaHaykinson> which one is 5?
<humphreybc> lol
<IlyaHaykinson> installation?
<humphreybc> 5 is software/packaging
<IlyaHaykinson> packaging?
<Rudi-> that is 4
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, it needs a good bit of work
<IlyaHaykinson> i've been touching it up
<IlyaHaykinson> but it needs a lot of TLC still
<humphreybc> okay i'll have a look at it today
<IlyaHaykinson> i would estimate 4-5 hrs of writing.
<godbyk> what's with the 'and packaging' part of the title?
<jaminday1> IlyaHaykinson: ok i'll go through and add any content i can
<humphreybc> godbyk, true, what on earth is packaging? :{
<godbyk> Maybe "Installing and Updating Software" or something?
<humphreybc> we need to change that for a new user
<nisshh> that should be changed in the title
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: i like this title
<humphreybc> okay so add to the to do list practically change every single title :P
<jaminday1> godbyk: yeah
<nisshh> hehe
<Rudi-> har har har
<humphreybc> also, now that i look at "The Command Line" i see it's fairly daunting
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe someone could find a non-technical user (parent?) to screen the ToC.
<jaminday1> Yep command line needs a lot of work
<Red_HamsterX> Parent/liberal arts major.
<humphreybc> nisshh: aren't you on command line?
<jaminday1> i've been adding a bit as i've been editing but haven't gotten around to finishing
 * nisshh reaslises that and is working on it tommorrow morning first thing
<humphreybc>  Red_HamsterX haha
<humphreybc> cool
<jaminday1> nisshh: check out the edits i made as well
<humphreybc> we'll leave it in your capable hands then!
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> chapter 7?
<humphreybc> security
<jaminday1> i saved your original file in the folder then made my changes so we can revert if necessary
<humphreybc> content wise, is not looking too bad
<KelvinGardiner> needs review by editor
<Rudi-> who is the editor for chap 7?
<KelvinGardiner> no idea
<jaminday1> Rudi-: are you still interested?
<humphreybc> no one
<humphreybc> ronald_: want to edit a chapter?
<Rudi-> what would be required of me?
<IlyaHaykinson> i added a lot of edits to the command line chapter recently
<IlyaHaykinson> an intro, basically.
<nisshh> ilya: iv seen them
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: nice.
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe you can expand the other sections in a similar way?
<humphreybc> Rudi you'd just have to go through and fix anything that's too complicated sounding, re word stuff that doesn't make sense, fix spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, punctuation, latex commands and the like
<nisshh> yes, ill follow your example
<IlyaHaykinson> sweet
<Rudi-> humphreybc, ok I'm keen to do it then
<jaminday1> humphreybc: thanks you beat me to it -)
<jaminday1> ;-)
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> chapter 8 troubleshooting
<epkugelmass> hi
<humphreybc> ah so Elan is on this one
<nisshh> hey dude
<epkugelmass> so, i'm looking at the sections toward the beginning of the chapter
<epkugelmass> which just got moved from old-6
<godbyk> I'd put the troubleshooting stuff before the sys maintenance stuff.
 * humphreybc just saw the title of that chapter, puke
<godbyk> 1. it matches the chapter title
<jaminday1> I'm responsible for editing but haven't even really looked at it yet. I'm planning on doing that today though
<epkugelmass> thanks
<godbyk> 2. it's more likely I'm going to want troubleshooting stuff in a hurry. :-)
<jaminday1> Yeah title probably needs a revisit also
<humphreybc> "Troubleshooting and system maintenance" that word wraps!
<humphreybc> okay so we've decided all the titles need a re think
<epkugelmass> what i need to work on is fixing the bug associated with the reinstalling grub section
<semioticrobotic> just remove the word "system"?
<godbyk> the purging and whatnot may belong in the software chapter anyway.
<epkugelmass> and also gui-fying the cleanup my hard drive section
<jaminday1> semioticrobotic: yeah that could work
<epkugelmass> i dont think computer janitor does that
<epkugelmass> at least, it doesnt do that for me
<Rudi-> screenie of "computer janitor?"
<humphreybc> computer janitor sucks
<IlyaHaykinson> is there a good alternative to the computer janitor?
<Rudi-> doesn't it just clean packages?
<IlyaHaykinson> installable from the software center?
<Ell> yes computer jaintor is awful
<epkugelmass> i have no idea what it does
<humphreybc> yeah and it removes dependencies and .debs too
<dutchie> computer janitor definitely needs some love
<Rudi-> Sweeper?
<epkugelmass> i always use ubuntu tweak to clean my hard drive
<danyR> computer janitor as alternatives like bleachbit
<humphreybc> ugh!
<danyR> and a nice script called ubuncleaner
<humphreybc> not bleachbit!
<humphreybc> i tried bleachbit once
<danyR> ubucleaner*
<humphreybc> destroyed my computer
<nisshh> *cough*command line*cough*
 * Rudi- agrees with nisshh
<humphreybc> yeah probably easiest just to chuck them some sudo apt-get clean and autoremove commands
<nisshh> hehe
<Rudi-> i have a great idea:
<Rudi-> sudo rm -rf
<Rudi-> :) nice clean pc
<humphreybc> sudo rm -rf /
<humphreybc> O.o
<dutchie> that doesn't actually work
<danyR> computer-janitor also does that. removes every .deb package you've installed by yourself
<dutchie> try it
<jaminday1> cool i'll try that now...
<humphreybc> dutchie: after you
<nisshh> wow, really? holy moly
<dutchie> josh@rigel:~$ sudo rm -rf /
<dutchie> [sudo] password for josh:
<dutchie> rm: cannot remove root directory `/'
<nisshh> that is terrible
<IlyaHaykinson> oh, wait, synaptic has a view by status
<dutchie> that took some bravery ;)
<jaminday1> hehe
<humphreybc> wow
<humphreybc> that's cool
<nisshh> damn i love kde 4.4.1
<IlyaHaykinson> one of those statuses is "installed (autoremovable)" which i think is the same thing as what gets removed with autoremove
<epkugelmass> ok, so it's a agreed that i'll get rid of the computer janitor stuff
<tacantara> Sorry I'm late.  Did I miss anything?  ;)
<danyR> what i was talking about: http://opendesktop.org/content/show.php/Ubucleaner?content=71529
<humphreybc> yeah computer janitor is a pain in the butt
<jaminday1> tacantara: heya
<humphreybc> tacantara: heh, we're still on the first thing in the agenda
<humphreybc> just going over the chapters
<humphreybc> danyR: in the repos?
<jaminday1> check out todo list for things we've added http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F!
<epkugelmass> besides that, i just need to fix that bug and rearrange the chapte
<epkugelmass> any other thoughts?
<humphreybc> if it's not in the repos then we can't use it
<humphreybc> epkugelmass: nah it looks good. you might have some stuff coming your way from other chapters
<danyR> humphreybc: it's a 25 line shell script
<jaminday1> yeah do we need another writer to help out with the new stuff in that chapter?
<humphreybc> "Remove every kernel except the one you are using"
<epkugelmass> humphreybc,  thanks. just let me know what you need
<humphreybc> that sucks!
<humphreybc> jaminday1: if we've got one to spare, sure
<jaminday1> anyone want to put up their hand?
<danyR> humphreybc: you can edit it. but it really works well, and has a *nice* interface (don't know if nice is possible to use when talking about command line interfaces)
<humphreybc> yeah
<Rudi-> cli is sexy!
<humphreybc> i think by the time we tell them to go download it and run it we could just tell them a few commands ourselves?
<jaminday1> epkugelmass: how are you feeling with your chapter - do you want someone to help out with the new stuff we moved into it or are you okay?
<humphreybc> and besides, we don't really want to be reliant on an external application/script
<humphreybc> danyR: thanks for the suggestion though :)
<danyR> yeah. sudo apt-get autoremove --purge && sudo apt-get autoclean
<epkugelmass> jaminday1, I would appreciate help
<danyR> it's quite a good cleaning, in fact
<epkugelmass> I had planned to finish the chapter last week
<jaminday1> ok guys can we stay on topic
<IlyaHaykinson> alright, i've gotta go. some quick things before i go idle for a while:  a) i'm going through and trying to expand some people's chapters. please don't take offense -- if you disagree, feel free to revert or edit my changes.  2) i will be going through and fixing up all the GUI usage terms soon, as per the writing presentation and the GNOME guidelines.
<epkugelmass> b/c I'm dealing with midterms now
<epkugelmass> but it looks like my work is not yet done...
<IlyaHaykinson> c) would prefer if godbyk can add some spacing between paragraphs. they're too close together now.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, l8r folks.
<semioticrobotic> later!
<Rudi-> bye bye
<ubuntujenkins> later
<jaminday1> IlyaHaykinson: see ya
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: The whole line spacing will be increased a titch.
<humphreybc> godbyk are you playing around with the book format atm?
<jaminday1> epkugelmass: if we can't get anyone else i'll try and jump in to help write a bit
<epkugelmass> jaminday1, I appreciate it.
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'm starting to, yeah. Though I keep getting distracted. :)
<jaminday1> so... Chapter 9?
<semioticrobotic> okay
<semioticrobotic> I have a few items
<humphreybc> and just lastly, chapter 9: first half is pretty sweet, might need some TLC, second half needs to be finished but i'll do that today. actually, i was thinking we could drop the extra applications bit. for a few reasons, 1) software center now has a "featured" section and star ratings, 2) each app will require a screenshot which takes up space, 3) it's personal opinion what apps we like and 4) it takes up some more space
<jaminday1> humphreybc: yep agreed with all of the above
<humphreybc> okay, extra apps: bye bye
<Ell> yes I agree
<Rudi-> [AGREED]
<ubuntujenkins> fine with me
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: Okay, well, that saves me a bit of time during tomorow's "writing push"
<semioticrobotic> ha!
<Rudi-> !agreed
<manualbot> Factoid 'agreed' not found
<humphreybc> heh
<semioticrobotic> I can make those changes this evening
<epkugelmass> godbyk, can i pm you with a latex question?
<humphreybc> okay finally, moving on!
<godbyk> epkugelmass: sure!
<humphreybc> catching up on written content, well, we've already covered that
<danyR> humphreybc: at least refer to that featured section in USC
<semioticrobotic> Id say so!
<jaminday1> humphreybc: can we jump to anything really important cos i'll have to go soon as well!
<humphreybc> danyR: yeah we will
<humphreybc> kk
<jaminday1> New dates for freezes?
<nisshh> yes, i need to get some sleep too, so maybe we prioritize the agenda
<humphreybc> most important things are probably final title page / new freeze dates
<semioticrobotic> agreed ... I'll need to leave in about five minutes, too
<humphreybc> the new freeze dates are 21st march for content, 31st march for writing
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<humphreybc> content - ie, new sections and stuff
<humphreybc> the writing freeze will have NO exceptions
<semioticrobotic> ...then all fleshed out by 31
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Title page.  thorwil is working on one that incorporates the new Ubuntu design (such that it is). And we'll write it up in LaTeX, so the title pages get translated automagically.
<nisshh> ok got it
<semioticrobotic> nice
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> title page looks good
<humphreybc> and will look better with the new branding stuff
<humphreybc> as for new branding, godbyk, colours in the manual?
<humphreybc> jaminday1 semioticrobotic you guys can head off now if you like
<semioticrobotic> okay, chief
<Red_HamsterX> godbyk, why was I highlighted?
<semioticrobotic> drop me a line if you need anything ... I'll be working on the manual tonight
<jaminday1> humphreybc: ok cheers - will keep track of todo list and will be coming back later today to do some more writing
<humphreybc> awesome :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: thorwil's been in contact with the ubuntu design folks. they're still finalizing the color choices.
<jaminday1> bye all
<semioticrobotic> by jamin
<ubuntujenkins> bye
<humphreybc> sweet as
<nisshh> cya dude
<thorwil> have to go, too! cya
<humphreybc> chow
<semioticrobotic> bye everyone
<ubuntujenkins> bye
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: not sure.
<Rudi-> bye bye
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> so i'm just gonna whizz through this stuff now
<nisshh> heh well who is left
<humphreybc> if you want to say anything, just interrupt :)
<nisshh> dont rush
<nisshh> i can stay another 30-40 mins
 * Rudi- jumps up and down excitedly!
<Rudi-> me me me
<nisshh> lol
<humphreybc> new website is up at http://test.ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> not finished yet
<humphreybc> the mockups are under /website/source
<humphreybc> in the branch
<humphreybc> take a look at it and let me know what you think
<Rudi-> oki
<humphreybc> you don't have to now, but just at some point
<epkugelmass> i like it
<epkugelmass> been watching the development
<nisshh> its awesome
<humphreybc> cool :)
<nisshh> simple yet elegant
<epkugelmass> i think it should incorporate the ubuntu brown color a little more though
<humphreybc> epkugelmass: the brown is no longer :)
<nisshh> yucky!
<nisshh> death to the brown!!
<humphreybc> lol
<Rudi-> i like the white
<dutchie> I liked the brown
<tacantara> Purple is the new brown
<dutchie> it was a bit of a shame to see it go
<nisshh> i didnt mind it in the logos
<Rudi-> i still have a brown theme going... :)
<nisshh> but as the theme it was terrible
<nisshh> die hard fan huh?
<humphreybc> okay so that's cool, re-arrangement - i'm sure you all get this, but chap 6 is now gone and merged with software/packaging and troubleshooting
<Rudi-> yep
<nisshh> wait what?
<nisshh> ch6 is cmd
<humphreybc> nah old chapter 6
<humphreybc> used to just be "system maintenance"
<Rudi-> now there are only 9 chapters
<humphreybc> but we removed it, because there wasn't enough stuff to write on
<danyR> hey, check out this post from shuttleworth about ubuntu new colors: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/308
<nisshh> ooooh you mean the sixth iteration of the 9th quadrant of the 3 circlet
<humphreybc> lolwut
<humphreybc> um editing review, jamin is going to do that this week
<nisshh> nuthin just saying im confused in a cool way
<humphreybc> what we need to have done asap - basically everything on here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<nisshh> ok
<danyR> may be important to integrate core values in ubuntu manual: "And on the end-user / engineer spectrum, we took inspiration from graph paper and engineering blue prints. When you see widely spaced patterns of dots, or outline images and figures, thatâs signalling that the content is more engineering-oriented than end-user oriented."
<humphreybc> any new people who come along wanting to help out, point them at the to do list
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> danyR: how would we do that?
<humphreybc> i wonder if thorwil should put dots on the title page..
<dutchie> there was a scale thingy
<humphreybc> yeah i've read mark's post
<dutchie> I was about to link it
<danyR> maybe using the community/user elements
<Rudi-> i got distracted reading about it now...
<dutchie> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/308
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/308
<danyR> "The use of Aubergine indicates Commercial involvement of one form or another, while Orange is a signal of community engagement."
<humphreybc> yep well thorwil is pretty involved in the artwork thing, so i'm sure he knows what he's doing
<godbyk> I'd think we'd want avoid the engineering end of the spectrum for the getting started guide.
<humphreybc> godbyk lol
<humphreybc> so orange colours
<humphreybc> and stuff
<Rudi-> and stuff ;)
<Ell> bye all
<nisshh> unless an engineer reads the manual
<godbyk> humphreybc: As soon as Canonical get their color proofs back and pick one! :)
<Rudi-> :O
<humphreybc> lol
<nisshh> hehe
<Rudi-> i am an engineering student...
<humphreybc> see ya Ell
<Rudi-> watch what ye all say in here :P
<nisshh> cool so is my bro
<ubuntujenkins> so am i
<nisshh> hehehe
<humphreybc> okay so i think we've covered pretty much everything
<godbyk> So am I. :)
<Rudi-> nice :P what field is he in?
<humphreybc> cough !ot
<nisshh> oh cmon lol
<Rudi-> sorry humphreybc
<humphreybc> but we need to chat about quickshot
<nisshh> and i built a particle accelerator
<nisshh> what about quickshot
<humphreybc> nisshh: oh was it you that build the LHC?
<nisshh> no lol
<humphreybc> what _not_ about quickshot?!
<Rudi-> that was me
<nisshh> ok back on topic now thanks
<nisshh> so about quickshot?
<humphreybc> quickshot team... assemble!
<ubuntujenkins> here
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: ping
<humphreybc> so since i'm not really doing a whole heap except watching and designing the UI
<ubuntujenkins> I am going to ask for help in #ubuntu-app-devel to see if people want to help
<humphreybc> ok cool
<humphreybc> anyone know of any python developers?
<Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, hi.
<nisshh> im one
<nisshh> but not a pro
<nisshh> i wrote pytask
<humphreybc> turns out my post on omgubuntu.co.uk for python devs ended up attracting more questions about what theme i was using
<dutchie> I should definitely be more involved in quickshot
<nisshh> just search it lp
<Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, my job failed to pay on time, so I've got a lot of freedom ahead of me to focus on things.
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: ha! okay then that sounds good, well, good for us
<humphreybc> launchpad.net/quickshot
<humphreybc> wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<humphreybc> go nuts
<humphreybc> :)
<Red_HamsterX> I'd rather contribute to something that helps people more than something that helps a private enterprise anyway.
 * humphreybc is definitely ready for a coffee and breakfast
<ubuntujenkins> please help Toomy and I did some work on the time out stiff to day but with on avail. FO my writing python taakes days and isn't an effective use of my time. I will quite happyly continue to help
<nisshh> so do we all
 * Rudi- is definitely ready for bed...
<humphreybc> yeah Tommy needs some help
 * ubuntujenkins can't type fast at all
<Red_HamsterX> I was speaking with Tommy for a while this morning.
 * humphreybc computer is going to run out of juice
<humphreybc> oka
<Red_HamsterX> He gave me a pretty good idea of where he wants to see things go.
<Red_HamsterX> I think I can help us get there.
<ubuntujenkins> huphreybc did Red_HamsterX and godbyk tell you their idea
<nisshh> ok if theres nothing important left to discuss i need to go to bed
<Red_HamsterX> The HTTP thing?
 * Rudi- agrees with nisshh, me too!
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, that's been explained.
<Red_HamsterX> Tommy agrees, too.
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<humphreybc> okay
<Red_HamsterX> I'm going to push forward on getting a complete prototype ready today (my time).
<humphreybc> so quickshot guys, feel free to ping thumper or doctormo to ask questions
<Red_HamsterX> For the upload/status-check/authentication model.
<ubuntujenkins> sweet sounds good
<humphreybc> t humper works for canonical, team-lead for launchpad
<humphreybc> doctormo is martin owens who developed ground control. he knows python and also how to work with bzr and launchpad
<Red_HamsterX> I'm kinda wondering why my last bzr commit doesn't seem to be in the main branch, though. But I'm sure I'll figure it out.
<ubuntujenkins> I havee a question about screenshots, what are we going to do about apps that people have installed and appear in the mnues?
<humphreybc> just tell them what you're working on and that i sent you and they'll be all good :)
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: avoid screenshotting the menus?
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, wouldn't we want everyone to be using fresh installs of Lucid anyway?
<nisshh> yes
<danyR> Red_HamsterX: maybe a guest-session, not a fresh install
<humphreybc> yeah
<ubuntujenkins> I am not at the moment and we can't garantee they are freesh
<nisshh> ok iv gotta go now, cyas
<humphreybc> but don't guest sessions still have access to all the apps?
<Red_HamsterX> Guest session works, too.
<humphreybc> chow nissh, thanks for staying up
<Rudi-> bye bye nisshh
<danyR> humphreybc: yeah, they have
<nisshh> no prob cya
<humphreybc> well
<ubuntujenkins> I would like the screen resolution change stuff sorted so it can be tested by lots of people.
<humphreybc> we're hardly ever going to have the menus in the screenshot
<Rudi-> cheers guys :) i'm out
<ubuntujenkins> I think we can say no to menu screenshots
<humphreybc> okay bye Rudi- thanks for coming!
<Red_HamsterX> If we do, it'll probably be in a later version. This isn't a walkthrough so much as it is a tour, correct?
<humphreybc> yeah that makes sense
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: i guess you could say that
<humphreybc> although we do go into quite a bit of detail on a lot of stuff
<humphreybc> just look at chap 3! :)
<humphreybc> right well i think that's pretty much everything
<humphreybc> questions?
<Red_HamsterX> Would having new menu entries unrelated to the task the user wants to accomplish really be that confusing?
<Red_HamsterX> I mean, the goal would be highlighted in their language...
<Red_HamsterX> Just in case we do get a screencapper with a non-clean system.
<humphreybc> it probably doesn't matter than much
<humphreybc> but it could get a bit annoying if there are a tonne of kde apps
<humphreybc> amongst like one gnome app
<ubuntujenkins> we will be adding them to the branch our sevels so a quick check over can be done
<humphreybc> we aren't going to be screenshotting the menus anyway
<danyR> "he desktop itself will have a wallpaper that is part of the default Ubuntu theme, known as the Human theme. The desktop is highly customizable". just found this while translating. guess it's wrong now :P
<humphreybc> yeah, lots of stuff is wrong courtesy of the new design changes
<ubuntujenkins> Radiance is the new theme or Ambiance
<tacantara> I'm going to work on that, now that I have the new themes installed and I've had a chance to play around with them.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: not sure yet
<ubuntujenkins> which one is default?
<ubuntujenkins> ok
<humphreybc> i think radience will be
<humphreybc> but when i installed lucid yesterday, ambience was
<tacantara> That is my understanding too, Ben
<danyR> heard that ambience is going to be default
<ubuntujenkins> I set it to ambiance when i got the update
<danyR> and it's damn more sexy than radiance!
<ubuntujenkins> it is better
<humphreybc> i can't imagine them choosing a dark theme by default
<ubuntujenkins> true thats a point and gdm is light
 * humphreybc mutters something about canonical not sticking to the UI freeze
<danyR> gdm *has* to suffer changes until final release
<ubuntujenkins> thats going to cause us a pain
<tacantara> A lot changed with the new theme.  No more launchers for Firefox, et.al. on the top panel
 * epkugelmass is going to stick to shiki-colors
 * humphreybc is going to stick to homosapien :)
<humphreybc> oh well
<humphreybc> not much we can do but wait
 * danyR is going to stick with Elementary :D
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> meeting over?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Got someplace better to be? ;-)
<ubuntujenkins> I think so
<humphreybc> godbyk nope i'm just hungry and tired
<humphreybc> 9am sunday morning meetings aren't cool :P
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:44.
<epkugelmass> it's 5PM saturday in ny
<danyR> 9am?
<epkugelmass> =]
<ubuntujenkins> 8.44pm
<ubuntujenkins> *9.44
<humphreybc> yep, 9am sunday morning
<humphreybc> okay i'm gonna go and have something to eat, coffee, shower etc then i'll be back soon
<danyR> well, around here it's 21:44
<humphreybc> to start writing and editing :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: 'kay. see ya after a bit.
<humphreybc> argh
<humphreybc> could not acquire lock when pulling
<ubuntujenkins> are you using ground control?
<humphreybc> i have it installed but i'm using the CLI
<ubuntujenkins> I had ground control lock the branch some how I had to delete the branch and try again with the CLI
<humphreybc> wow, awesome, we're already up to rev 428
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/428 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 428
<humphreybc> thanks manualbox
<humphreybc> manualbot*
<humphreybc> yesterday we got up to 400, 28 revisions in about 20 hours, nice!
<ubuntujenkins> i was rev 300 :-)
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/300 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 300
<godbyk> I keep uploading little bug fixes for the various translations when a build fails.
<humphreybc> that's all good
<humphreybc> there's no rule on how much you have to change before pushin
<Red_HamsterX> godbyk, every try building a webapp purely on a remote host using a VCS? Nice way to rack up thousands of revisions very quickly.
<ubuntujenkins> being a python noob and trying to wrtie a program is another way to do it :-)
<Red_HamsterX> Don't commit until it's working locally. =P
<Red_HamsterX> Wow. IT's getting late and I'm still assembling proof of billable work...
<Red_HamsterX> It's*
<Red_HamsterX> My schedule may be off by a few hours.
<Red_HamsterX> I should probably stop fielding questions in #ubuntu.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: heh.. I can imagine!
 * ubuntujenkins has a timer nearly working at last except it goes up not down :-)
<ubuntujenkins> with allot of help as usual
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, has it been committed?
<Red_HamsterX> If so, I'll takje a look at it.
<Red_HamsterX> take*
<ubuntujenkins> not yet i will do now i suggets you comment out lines 225 and 228 adn change quickshot in line 127 to your user name
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot
 * ubuntujenkins has a bad feeling internet problems are about to happen
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: "has a timer nearly working at last except it goes up not down" hahahaha!
<Red_HamsterX> How can I actually push my local bzr changes back to a central location?
<Red_HamsterX> I'm far too used to the svn/cvs model.
<godbyk> holy cow! I'm gonna have to take a few minutes and read through the TODO list.
<godbyk> see which bits are on my side of the fence.
<ubuntujenkins> sorry my guys uni internet has been playing up all day I missed anything you said after 23.10
<Red_HamsterX> We didn't say anything meaningful.
<godbyk> We rarely do. :)
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<ubuntujenkins> you never know
<humphreybc> anyone know where i can report bugs on the new notification system?
<ubuntujenkins> on launchpad bugs under ubuntu :P
<humphreybc> lol
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, that's why I couldn't upload my changes. 'Cause I already did and I was just looking at the wrong branch.
 * Red_HamsterX duhs.
<humphreybc> launchpad is slow
<ubuntujenkins> we have a countdown
 * ubuntujenkins jumps up and doen
<Red_HamsterX> So which files am I looking at, ubuntujenkins?
<humphreybc> guys, give me some more things that tell you information in your notification tray
<humphreybc> there's the battery indicator, wireless indicator, volume indicator
<humphreybc> crash report?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX the timer is in bin/quickshot line 232 with some help I have it working now i will just make the changes
<humphreybc> updates available?
<Red_HamsterX> bin/? That seems like an odd place to put source, but okay.
<Red_HamsterX> By default or what we use, humphreybc?
<humphreybc> anything
<humphreybc> doesn't have to be by default
<Red_HamsterX> I also use the CPU monitor and system monitor.
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, except those aren't Notification Tray-bound.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> oh CPU scaling
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah. I like knowing, at a glance, whether I've written a busy loop or not.
<Red_HamsterX> And I like knowing just how much RAM my AI projects are eating.
<humphreybc> i'm just submitting bugs on launchpad complaining about a heap of stuff :)
<Red_HamsterX> Ah. I figured this was for things to document for the manual.
<humphreybc> hehe nope, i just asked here because that window was open
<humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/533544
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 533544 in ubuntu "New notification area problems" [Undecided,New]
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc its effects me :-)
<humphreybc> yeah, mark it as affecting you if it does please team :)
<ubuntujenkins> what I would like to know why is't network manager in there but evreything else is
<humphreybc> yeah, it's rubbish
 * ubuntujenkins is trying to recruit a python coder
<ubuntujenkins> *another
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX did you say you were adding the screenshot module to quickshot?
<ubuntujenkins> guys meet titeuf_87 he helped me get the timer working, humphreybc is the project lead
<godbyk> humphreybc: for the nomenclature stuff, what do you think needs to be explained?
<titeuf_87> hey everyone
<godbyk> I think the buttons and menu stuff are usually written right next to the word 'button' or 'menu'.
<godbyk> Hey, titeuf_87.
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn is also working on it he is utc +1 and not here right now
<ubuntujenkins> will be back in a moment just going to do a test
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87 this is the main branch :
<ubuntujenkins> bzr branch lp:quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot is the branch that has the stuff we were working on I will add it to main tomorow
<titeuf_87> this is where you added in that counter?
<ubuntujenkins> in y branch yes
<ubuntujenkins> if you join https://edge.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs I will authorize it so that you can upload changes
<ubuntujenkins> there is some bugs in my branch only minor that are fixed in main. window sizes and some text not showing
<titeuf_87> ok, just tried to join, need approval first though
<ubuntujenkins> I have just approved you don't test my branch yet I have just made a mistake in testing
<titeuf_87> I'm just looking around at the code to get an idea of how it works now
<ubuntujenkins> we use quickly, quickly run runs it and quickly run -r removes the user and runs it
<titeuf_87> basically, making an user works, logging in as it works, and further than that it's not implemented yet?
<ubuntujenkins> and the resolution is changed if we can
<ubuntujenkins> we only support some drivers at the moment
<ubuntujenkins> the reolution change is only in my branch, I have my own branch as I am not a python coder and don't want to break main
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-07
<titeuf_87> code looks fairly simple to understand. What's currently being worked on and what could you use help with?
<ubuntujenkins> currently we could do with help on the actual taking screenshots bit Red_HamsterX has had a look at is so best to ask him, not sure if he is here right now
<ubuntujenkins> I am being stupid and I think it is because it it to late at night but I can't get the command os.system("gnome-session-save --kill --silent") to run when the countdown hits 0
<ubuntujenkins> should be very easy but apparently not
<titeuf_87> you would do something like if counter == 0: os.system("...") else: self.builder.get_object("...
<titeuf_87> split over four lines
<Red_HamsterX> I'm here. Just a bit busy.
<Red_HamsterX> A primitive screenshot module has been added. I'll flesh it out tomorrow.
<titeuf_87> ah ok
<ubuntujenkins> sorry could you please explain the server stuff very quickly
<Red_HamsterX> Sure.
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87 has joined us if you hadn't gathered
<titeuf_87> I think I got it: quickshot uses bzr to get the latest screenshots, looks what's missing, present those to the user, and uses bzr again to add those missing screenshots
<Red_HamsterX> That was the old model.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm working on implementing something HTTP-based.
<titeuf_87> oh ok
<ubuntujenkins> the varification of the user for bzr was to complex
<Red_HamsterX> It'll use POST + meta-data + credentials to submit screenshots and GET to find out what needs to be screencapps and any parameters about what need to be collected.
<Red_HamsterX> This decouples it from bzr and launchpad, which reduces the complexity of setup and deployment.
<Red_HamsterX> It technically makes the quickshot user optional, too, but that may stick around since it's easier to do things liek change resolution and configuration settings in a throwaway account.
<ubuntujenkins> also the quickshot user has the default lucid setup
<Red_HamsterX> I'll be exposing a Python API for the HTTP stuff later tonight/early tomorrow, once I finish other obligations that have recently arisen.
<Red_HamsterX> Yes, that, too.
<Red_HamsterX> No weird themes.
<Red_HamsterX> Nothing that might intimidate a user looking for colours and icons that are still alien.
<Red_HamsterX> I just joined the project this week, so I haven't actually contributed much more than ideas yet.
<Red_HamsterX> My one-hour screencap-and-upload hack is in quickshot/lib.
<ubuntujenkins> which branch?
<Red_HamsterX> Yours.
<Red_HamsterX> I made a mistake when checking it out on my netbook.
<Red_HamsterX> And then saved to the wrong place.
<ubuntujenkins> i can't see it.
<Red_HamsterX> Odd...
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe it's in some sort of freakish limbo.
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, well. It'll get to main somehow.
<ubuntujenkins> I always check before i push branches as mine is low traffic I just check the web interface
<Red_HamsterX> Worst-case, I just diff against a prior revision and patch.
<Red_HamsterX> Got a link to this interface?
<ubuntujenkins> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot/changes
<ubuntujenkins> is where i check
<ubuntujenkins> its only be open to all in the last 2 days
<ubuntujenkins> since revison 40
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah... I don't see it. Yet it--
<Red_HamsterX> Oh...
<Red_HamsterX> No, it's not in yours.
<Red_HamsterX> I was sshed into my netbook when I thought I mangically found it.
<Red_HamsterX> bzr is confusing. :(
<ubuntujenkins> lol that makes sense
<ubuntujenkins> add it to main if you can I am going to merge mine into main now
<Red_HamsterX> Merge yours first. I'll just scp and add it.
<Red_HamsterX> Like, here.
<Red_HamsterX> I know my desktop is running main.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: is there an inline comment?
<IlyaHaykinson> something like \comment{foo}
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: nope.
<godbyk> well, lemme check.. the comment package may have one.
<IlyaHaykinson> it may help to have these inline comments that we can insert in places, and make them show up in some prominent color
<IlyaHaykinson> during development
<IlyaHaykinson> but then turn them off toward production.
<ubuntujenkins> silly question but how do i merge it correctly? I only started using bzr at the start of this project
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm thinking like the little [fact?] or [neutrality violation] supertitles in Wikipedia
<Red_HamsterX> Wanna create a global 'settings.py' module with things like 'DEBUG = True'?
<Red_HamsterX> Or do you mean for developers only?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Nope. Just \begin{comment}...\end{comment} (which you can use inline, even though it's a bit bulky)
<Red_HamsterX> If it's just for developers, #FIXME and #TODO usually get special treatment from editors.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Ah, you want to insert comments that appear in the PDF?
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, for the manual proper.
<Red_HamsterX> Ignore me.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: yeah, that could be useful
<IlyaHaykinson> that way it'll be very obvious in the compiled version
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: yeah, I can do that. give me just a sec.
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, bzr push lp:quickshot ? Haven't used bazaar much yet myself so not sure if that's correct
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, I have no idea for sure, but I think it's either join or push.
<godbyk> there's a really nice pkg for doing just that.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm trying to push from my netbook.
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will wait a moment
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, push seemed to work.
<Red_HamsterX> I added rev 32 and my "dunno, lawl" rev 33.
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/32 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 32
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/33 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 33
<Red_HamsterX> The bot needs to be just a little less aggressive...
<ubuntujenkins> it is in main now https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/quickshot
<Red_HamsterX> Using 'bzr merge' now.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: does 'kpsewhich todonotes.sty' return anythingn for you?
<Red_HamsterX> I got my changes...
<Red_HamsterX> Hmmm...
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I'm going to finish updating the install-pkgs.sh script, then I'll push the changes and tell you how to do the notes.
<Red_HamsterX> I don't see yours, ubuntujenkins.
<ubuntujenkins> not merged yet
<Red_HamsterX> Ah.
<ubuntujenkins> trying now
<Red_HamsterX> I should grab the Lucid ISO so I can do stuff in a real environment.
<ubuntujenkins> how do I fix conflicts?
<Red_HamsterX> bzr resolve <file>
<Red_HamsterX> That part's the same as SVN.
<ubuntujenkins> well I have pushed rev 34 lets hope I didn't break it
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/34 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 34
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I just pushed rev 431.
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/431 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 431
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It uses the todonotes package.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Run the install-pkgs.sh script to make sure you have it installed.
<Red_HamsterX> If you broke it, we can just roll back.
<ubuntujenkins> it appears to work
<ubuntujenkins> looks like it any way
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Then you can type \todo{Hey, someone fix this!} in the doc and it'll show up in the PDF as a margin note.
<Red_HamsterX> bzr pull seems to have grabbed all of your new stuff.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: If you think we should have different classes of TODO notes, make a list and let me know and I can write some custom commands for them.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: (Give 'em different colors, etc.)
<titeuf_87> same here, I got both of all your changes
<ubuntujenkins> so titeuf_87 now main is up to date if you can get it actually caputing screenshots that would be great. the list of screen shots is  http://paste.ubuntu.com/389962/
<Red_HamsterX> We are learning. :)
<ubuntujenkins> I have a list of language codes somewhere that we haev to look for in the users setting I will look for it in the morning
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, while you could get it capturing screenshots, I know how to do that and should have a fairly robust collection of easy-to-use functions tomorrow/Monday.
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX if you can find something for titeuf_87 to do I am going to go to bed as I have loads of uni work to do tomorrow
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<Red_HamsterX> Though you could like the timer and my grab-active-window function right now to make sure it wirtes a screenshot file to disk.
<titeuf_87> night ubuntujenkins
<Red_HamsterX> link*
<ubuntujenkins> thanks all
<Red_HamsterX> G'night and good luck~
<titeuf_87> I can look into that :)
<Red_HamsterX> What's your background with Python?
<titeuf_87> ummm...been using it for a couple of years now for hobby stuff, although never really anything big as I never get motivated to finish my projects
<Red_HamsterX> I've got some projects listed at http://uguu.ca/ and I contribute patches against open issues when I can.
<ubuntujenkins> well main is broken I am actually off to bed now night :-)
<Red_HamsterX> Broken's fine.
<Red_HamsterX> It means titeuf_87 can fix bugs and make it un-broken.
<titeuf_87> hehe
<Red_HamsterX> (While I work on the non-GUI stuff)
<titeuf_87> ok, I'll see what all works/doesn't work
<Red_HamsterX> (After finally finishing these invoices)
<Red_HamsterX> I'm still quite new to the project.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm confident in my skills, but I'm not fully aware of the scope of what needs to be done.
<Red_HamsterX> So I can't really delegate effectively.
<Red_HamsterX> I've taken responsibility for the server communication and actual screencapping routines for now, though.
<Red_HamsterX> With intent to deliver ASAP.
<Red_HamsterX> I'll be coding in accordance with PEP-8, but I don't think the project's mature enough to require a convention from everyone. Just make sure your code, and any code you hack against, is consistent, I suppose.
<titeuf_87> it's a bit of a mix already in there :)
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah.
<Red_HamsterX> I think the current goal is "make it work", not "make it publication-worthy".
<Red_HamsterX> Which is fine.
<Red_HamsterX> Things are more fun that way.
<titeuf_87> yeah
 * Red_HamsterX stops distracting himself and finishes invoicing people so he can get to work on what actually matters: this.
<titeuf_87> heh, have fun!
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: thx for the \todo command
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: np. If you want, I can set up different types of \todo commands that have different colors.
<IlyaHaykinson> let me try it out
<godbyk> 'kay.
<IlyaHaykinson> looks really good. thanks again! will make editing and review easier.
<IlyaHaykinson> instead of just using %comments, this todo command will make it very obvious to every reader, instead of just people pulling up the latex source
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: That's true. Just depends on who you want to see the comment. :)
<IlyaHaykinson> yes. though at the moment i would say _everyone_.
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> and it's a one-line edit to disable all the \todos.
<godbyk> there's also a \listoftodos command I can add that'll give an index to the TODOs (say, after the table of contents)
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, let's leave as-is for now.
<IlyaHaykinson> alright, gotta go. l8r
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> see ya
<semioticrobotic> Some folders in my music library have little "lock" icons in the upper righthand corner.  What does that mean?
<Red_HamsterX> It means they're read-only.
<semioticrobotic> ...and more importantly, how do I get rid of them?
<semioticrobotic> ah
<semioticrobotic> okay
<Red_HamsterX> Are you comfortable with terminals?
<semioticrobotic> well, that makes sense, since I last used the drive on a Mac
<semioticrobotic> permissions are probably all messed up
<semioticrobotic> I'm a novice with the terminal
<semioticrobotic> getting more comfortable
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, probably.
<Red_HamsterX> Chances are they belong to another user.
<Red_HamsterX> OS X likes to start numbering users at 500.
<semioticrobotic> makes total sense
<Red_HamsterX> Ubuntu likes 1000.
<semioticrobotic> oh, lovely
<semioticrobotic> ok
<Red_HamsterX> It's easy to fix by command-line, though.
<semioticrobotic> alrighty
<semioticrobotic> is it difficult to explain?
<titeuf_87> you could right-click on it, open the properties and look at the permissions tab, can change owner/perms there too
<Red_HamsterX> Open a terminal and move to the directory containing the files.
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, that'll probably fail without super-user access.
<titeuf_87> ah good point!
<Red_HamsterX> I'd be amazed (in horror) if you could say you're the owner of files without such access.
<semioticrobotic> Looks like Red_HamsterX is right
<semioticrobotic> :-/
<Red_HamsterX> It's fine.
<Red_HamsterX> Changing permissions is easy.
<Red_HamsterX> Like, one-command easy.
<semioticrobotic> okay
<semioticrobotic> let me get my tea off the stove ... I'll be right back
<semioticrobotic> okay, back
<semioticrobotic> sorry to keep you waiting
<semioticrobotic> i'll load a terminal
<semioticrobotic> Red_HamsterX: Okay, I'm at a terminal
<semioticrobotic> why are some folders highlighted green in the terminal?
<Red_HamsterX> They should all be highlighted.
<Red_HamsterX> It's just a niceity to make it more obvious what types of files you're dealing with.
<Red_HamsterX> ls is aliased to 'ls --color' by default.
<semioticrobotic> in the terminal, some folders are green, others aren't
<semioticrobotic> ah, okay
<semioticrobotic> well, then that's odd
<semioticrobotic> because all the folders with music should be green ... but they're not
<semioticrobotic> oh well
<semioticrobotic> save that problem for later
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe it's related to permissions...
<semioticrobotic> could be
<Red_HamsterX> Can you use 'ls -l' to see if anything's weird about them?
<Red_HamsterX> By 'weird', I mean 'different from those you created youself'.
<semioticrobotic> it's permissions
<semioticrobotic> :)
<semioticrobotic> you were right
<Red_HamsterX> Ownership or access?
<semioticrobotic> how can I tell?
<semioticrobotic> all I can see is that the combinations of wxr stuff is different for different colors
<Red_HamsterX> drwxr-xr-x 2 flan flan 4096 2010-03-06 16:25 lib
<Red_HamsterX> Owner: user flan, group flan
<Red_HamsterX> That's probably what we'll have to fix with the music files themselves.
<semioticrobotic> drwxr-xr-x 1 99 99  4 2010-02-07 17:20 The Mighty Mighty Bosstones
<semioticrobotic> drwxrwxrwx 1 99 99  5 2009-12-31 14:21 The Postal Service
<Red_HamsterX> I think we just found the problem.
<semioticrobotic> you can see the differences there
<Red_HamsterX> '99 99'
<semioticrobotic> okay
<semioticrobotic> yeah
<Red_HamsterX> 99 is Apple's generic "I dunno who you are" number.
<semioticrobotic> ha!
<semioticrobotic> every folder has 99 99
<Red_HamsterX> You have nothing with uid or gid 99 on your Ubuntu system.
<Red_HamsterX> So let's change that.
<semioticrobotic> okay
<Red_HamsterX> sudo chown -R flan:flan *
<Red_HamsterX> Where 'flan' is your name.
<Red_HamsterX> It's really mine.
<Red_HamsterX> You can't have it.
<semioticrobotic> will these changes prohibit me from using this disk on my Mac?
<semioticrobotic> all my music is on an external drive that I swap between machines
<Red_HamsterX> It'll flip the lock.
<Red_HamsterX> Ooh...
<Red_HamsterX> Okay, in that case, the problem may well be different.
<semioticrobotic> okay
<semioticrobotic> glad I mentioned that then!
<semioticrobotic> :)
<Red_HamsterX> I was under the impression that this was an HFS+ partition.
<Red_HamsterX> Not FAT32.
<Red_HamsterX> Which is likely the case if you carry it everywhere.
<semioticrobotic> Actually, it's HFS
<semioticrobotic> (non-jounaled, I believe)
<Red_HamsterX> Oh. Then this change would flip the lock.
<semioticrobotic> I just move the drive between Macs in the house, my Ubuntu machine, and my television
<Red_HamsterX> The files would still be readable, but not writeable.
<Red_HamsterX> ...You have a TV that understands HFS?
<semioticrobotic> I have a Western Digital Media Center, which reads the HFS drive and sends files to the TV
<semioticrobotic> :)
<semioticrobotic> So now, the TV isn't doing the work
<Red_HamsterX> Ah.
<semioticrobotic> er, no
<Red_HamsterX> Okay, then, I dunno what you should do...
<Red_HamsterX> If you change ownership, it'll just go the other way.
<semioticrobotic> I see
<Red_HamsterX> The Macs will say "I can't write to this".
<Red_HamsterX> But Ubuntu will be happy.
<semioticrobotic> there isn't a way to make all the folders read/write from any platform?
<semioticrobotic> ha!
<Red_HamsterX> Probably best to leave ownership alone if the Macs are where your music comes from.
<semioticrobotic> or, the other way around
<semioticrobotic> okay, I gotcha
<semioticrobotic> sounds fine
<Red_HamsterX> There is a way, but it's implicitly insecure.
<semioticrobotic> can I ask you another question?
<semioticrobotic> okay
<Red_HamsterX> From the current location, 'sudo chmod o=rwx *'
<Red_HamsterX> If your directories are one layer deep, you'll then be able to write to them from anywhere.
<semioticrobotic> I see
<semioticrobotic> but it's my understanding that Ubuntu does not support HFS very well
<semioticrobotic> is that true?
<Red_HamsterX> The insecurity comes from the fact that, when the thing is connected, any user ont he system can write to them, too.
<Red_HamsterX> I don't know.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm not a Mac person.
<semioticrobotic> ah, I see how that can be insecure, yes
<semioticrobotic> well, I'm hoping the current Macbook will be my last Mac
<semioticrobotic> my next primary computer will be running Ubuntu
<semioticrobotic> and at that point
<semioticrobotic> I'll probably reformat my media drive to something more universally acceptable
 * Red_HamsterX sets up his Lucid system with only one partition.
<Red_HamsterX> Stupidity, thy manifestation be me!
<semioticrobotic> ha!
<semioticrobotic> speaking of which
<semioticrobotic> what do you recommend for backup software on Ubuntu?
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, and automatic login, too.
<Red_HamsterX> Dunno.
<semioticrobotic> you don't make backups either?
<Red_HamsterX> I have RAID-1 on everything and ten-minute rsync.
<semioticrobotic> ah
<semioticrobotic> well then
 * semioticrobotic laughs
<Red_HamsterX> All code is managed by subversion, with off-site backups.
<semioticrobotic> don't see much need for a backup solution, then!
<Red_HamsterX> Nope.
<Red_HamsterX> I burn DVDs sometimes, but only for content that's archive-only.
<semioticrobotic> makes sense
<semioticrobotic> I am running Ubuntu on my ultraportable
<semioticrobotic> and using that system to test various applications
<Red_HamsterX> Oh. Well, I suppose my Eee isn't RAIDed.
<Red_HamsterX> But it rsyncs locally to an SD card.
<Red_HamsterX> And this system.
<semioticrobotic> so I can make a smooth transition from my Mac when I finally ditch it for a new machine
<semioticrobotic> rsyncing to an SD card is a great idea
<Red_HamsterX> It's the offline fallback.
<Red_HamsterX> If it can't connect to this thing, it goes there.
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<semioticrobotic> well, the software center offers several solutions, so I'll just play with those
<semioticrobotic> I think BackInTime is an rsync GUI.  I'll start with that.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm primarily a Debian user, so I'm still kinda old-school in terms of scripting things.
<semioticrobotic> thanks for your help Red_HamsterX
<Red_HamsterX> Welcome.
<semioticrobotic> I appreciate it
<semioticrobotic> I'm off to make some manual edits now
<semioticrobotic> thanks for helping a n00b with some pretty basic stuff :)
<Red_HamsterX> Everyone has to start learning somewhere.
<Red_HamsterX> And you've already got enoughe nthusiasm for the technology to compensate for any n00bish mistakes. :)
<semioticrobotic> I try to learn one or two new Ubuntu things each day
<semioticrobotic> ha!  well, that's true
<semioticrobotic> I'm very willing to learn
<semioticrobotic> just need some help along the way
<Red_HamsterX> And to teach.
<Red_HamsterX> Else you wouldn't be there.
<Red_HamsterX> be here*
<semioticrobotic> well, that's true, too
<semioticrobotic> :)
<semioticrobotic> take care
<Red_HamsterX> You, too.
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, the list of screenshots that still needs to be taken is something you'll take care of?
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, no, it is not. I am not sure who is co-ordinating that, but godbyk may know.
<Red_HamsterX> That's something you could probably look into, though.
<Red_HamsterX> Planning how to prompt users for that stuff/building a workflow outline for each one.
<godbyk> I don't know that anyone's really coordinating it yet.
<godbyk> In the manual, we write \screenshotTODO{Description of screenshot.}
<Red_HamsterX> I'm just focusing on the libraries that will manage the actual actions, not the actual business logic.
<Red_HamsterX> Do we have a lit of programs?
<Red_HamsterX> list*
<godbyk> The descriptions of all the screenshots get added to a screenshots.log file when you compile the manual.
<godbyk> But something more formal should be done with the descriptions, probably.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: The list looks like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/389997/
<Red_HamsterX> I hope Lucid's login screen won't stay so barren...
<Red_HamsterX> I like the session/language/action prompts.
<Red_HamsterX> Wait... We're going into Launchpad?
<Red_HamsterX> Why?
<Red_HamsterX> (Line 28)
<Red_HamsterX> I think I have another thing for humphrybc to complain about.
<Red_HamsterX> Two, actually.
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, I've pushed my changes to a new branch on launchpad
<titeuf_87> I'm going to work more on it tomorrow, bed time now. Night all
<ubuntujenkins> hello everyone
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn the countdown now works thanks to titeuf_87 who has joined the team, main is broken but has been fixed in titeuf_87's branch.
<TommyBrunn> Oh, nice!
<TommyBrunn> He should really speak to Neil before starting hacking on taking screenshots, though.
<TommyBrunn> He already has a lib ready for that.
<TommyBrunn> brb
<ubuntujenkins> thats cool neil and simon spoke last night
<ubuntujenkins> brb just rebooting
<ubuntujenkins> back
<rudi> hey guys
<rudi> re: the chapter on hardware-prefs etc
<rudi> i've found a gui app to replace all the cli commands i wrote up yesterday and it is the repos
<rudi> and seems  to work allright
<ubuntujenkins> how is everyone at the moment?
<titeuf_87> pretty good! And you?
<ubuntujenkins> I am good thinking i shoudl do some coursework
<ubuntujenkins> and not be on irc
<vish> thorwil: i think we should stay away from using purple , since it is reserved for canonical
<thorwil> vish: added manual title page tests to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork (look for 2010-03-07 a to e)
<vish> we can use the orange shades
<thorwil> vish: right. that's why the mockup wallpaper is full of it ;p
<vish> thorwil: heh , it is a flaw it their standards.. or they could just say "Canonical did it" ;p
<thorwil> vish: too much of that orange is just agressive, so we need something else
<vish> thorwil: that was the first thing that struck me as very odd... but it might be the argument i assumed
<vish>  true..
<ubuntujenkins> I like option e, how is purple reserved for conical you can't patent a colour
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: vish thinks that because the ubuntu has orange and the canonical logo uses aubergine
<vish> ubuntujenkins: not patent .. the purpose of the branding is anything having lot of purple means canonical
<vish> thorwil: not me thinks.. that was what sabdfl blogged
<vish> thorwil: but personally i like e :)
<ubuntujenkins> I think that the fact that so much purple is in the theme and boot splash means we cn still use it I see vish's point though
<thorwil> Mark wrote: "The use of Aubergine indicates Commercial involvement of one form or another, while Orange is a signal of community engagement", so based on that vish is right
<vish> ubuntujenkins: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/308
<thorwil> it really sucks hard that it's exactly the reverse of how i feel the colors :/
<vish> :)
<vish> thorwil: i was thinking we could incorporate the dots
<ubuntujenkins> I think overall that vish is right but I like the desgins :-), keep up the good work.
<ubuntujenkins> both of you
<thorwil> ty
<thorwil> vish: we could, but weren't the examples on dark ground, indicating corporate, too? should not force it anyway and i don't feel like trying, actually
<vish> oh , was it.. i didnt understand the dots fully..
<vish> thorwil: i think sabdfl missed a paragraph that was given to him ;p
<thorwil> vish: why, where?
<vish> thorwil: it just seemed the dots wasnt fully explained , or i didnt understand it fully.. anyways , just kidding ;)
<vish> i got the engineered part.. but then it went over my head
<vish> ah righto.. more space == user
<vish> oops other way ;p
<vish> thorwil: IMO , we use "e" without the top curve but with the band?
<vish> or we can do the curve in dots with orange[which we have to make sure doesnt get too much]
<thorwil> vish: dot grid emphasizes technical character, something i wanted to stay clear of
<vish> ah ok, good..
<thorwil> vish: also shouldn't be seen to enthusiastic about this new visual identity stuff ;)
<vish> lol ;p
<thorwil> vish: "e" with band but no top doesn't doi it for me
<vish> hmm..
<vish> thorwil: how about using orange for the curve and the logo , but we use grey for the icons?
<thorwil> vish: added "f", just other color
<thorwil> vish: trying
<vish> hehe , i was doing the same.. /me lets you have the fun
<thorwil> nah, too hard/dry
<thorwil> gotta love inkscape: remove 664 unused definitions
<vish> thorwil: after you mentioned the camera flash being close , i think we can use the fill for it and drop the stroke , looks good that way too
<thorwil> vish: yes, the same thought occurred to me. otherwise the stroke would need to fixed, it's too thin
<vish> yup
<thorwil> vish: svg current state in https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/ubuntu_manual_cover
<thorwil> lp doesn't let me get to the file online
<vish> neat , ty
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, automated capture-and-upload test successful. :)
<Red_HamsterX> I need to refactor, but it's simple and it works well.
<Red_HamsterX> http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/data/
<ubuntujenkins> sweet thats so cool thanks for sorting that.
<ubuntujenkins> did it automatialy choos the window?
<ubuntujenkins> *choose
<Red_HamsterX> IT just grabs the active one right now.
<Red_HamsterX> So the logical workflow is to set a timer.
<titeuf_87> timer is in my branch, it waits three seconds, hides the window and take a screenshot
<Red_HamsterX> Start timer; give user n seconds to give focus to the right window; capture; let user say "yes, this is what I want", then upload.
<ubuntujenkins> cool sound good, is there a logical naming system in the upload? how does the focuse thing work when the user has focus follow mouse set?
<titeuf_87> quickshot makes a new user, so the focus follow mouse won't be a problem there as that's not the default
<Red_HamsterX> Nothing too logical right now. Just 'program-name@language@timestamp.png' for debugging purposes.
<ubuntujenkins> good point silly me
<Red_HamsterX> (Which will make it pretty easy to use thumbnail previews)
<ubuntujenkins> that is a good naming system could be program-name-chapter at the start instead
<Red_HamsterX> A simple script could be used to arrange these things into directories.
<ubuntujenkins> sorry I am a slow at typing
<ubuntujenkins> that good I have the driectories set up in this branch
<Red_HamsterX> I'll need to discuss tagging meta-data with the writers when I have more of the API defined.
 * ubuntujenkins looks for link
<Red_HamsterX> It's easy to add stuff now, though.
<Red_HamsterX> Just populate a dictionary and deconstruct an associative array.
<Red_HamsterX> To go backwards, we should just need a regular expression and os.rename().
<ubuntujenkins> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-screenshots has a folder for each language as of 28/2/2010
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<Red_HamsterX> I'm going to focus on functionality before form. Once all the workflow logic is done, writing another layer to convert to the logical structure will be easy.
<ubuntujenkins> functionality is definatley key
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk I noticed on the to do list you are to be e-mailed on the addition of more language please can you let me know when we get more?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Sure, if I hear anything, I'll pass it along.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<godbyk> Generally, they just show up.
<godbyk> I think another was added in the last update.
<ubuntujenkins> good to see more but hard to keep track, I will have a look for the missing one
<godbyk> There are now 48 .po files.
<ubuntujenkins> definalty one missing
<godbyk> I think it was one of the Ms, but I don't recally.
<godbyk> recall, rather.
<ubuntujenkins> quickshot has come along so quickly in the last few days, how long untill we might have a fully functioning program titeuf_87 and Read_HamsterX?
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks godbyk have you got the link to the compiled manuals on your server?
<titeuf_87> right now the next biggest missing feature is for it to get what screenshots still needs to be done in what languages
<ubuntujenkins> every screen shot will be done in every language the list stands at ....
 * ubuntujenkins finds it
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/390593/ is the screenshots list
<ubuntujenkins> I will put an e-mail out to the list asking for people to add more screenshots in if they need them
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87 are you member of https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual its an open team but its the project that we are doing quickshot for
<Red_HamsterX> Everyone in Quickshot is part of that team.
<Red_HamsterX> It's a sub-team.
<titeuf_87> I am, cause I joined the quickshot dev team I'm in that one too
<ubuntujenkins> cool I wasnt aware I joined quickshot later than the manual
<titeuf_87> would using bzr to retrieve the already made screenshots be a good option to see what still needs to be done?
<ubuntujenkins> there are no offically done screen shots already.
<ubuntujenkins> The aim is to do them all with quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> there are few very rough ones done by ben in lp:ubuntu-manual these were more to see what lucid looked like
<titeuf_87> hmm, quickshot uses bzr to get the screenshots, see what's missing (for now that would be everything), propose those to the user. When the user takes the screenshot and uploads it, I guess they still need to be approved beforehand then? Whoever approves them could put them bazaar then
<Red_HamsterX> The plan I'm working under transfers that responsibility to the upload-target server.
<ubuntujenkins> It then relies on the manual to approve them and pop them in bzr.
<Red_HamsterX> The client queries it for a list of yet-to-be finalized (and waiting-for-approval) screenshots.
<titeuf_87> ah ok, I didn't know you would take care of that too
<Red_HamsterX> Dunno.
<Red_HamsterX> It's tentative.
<ubuntujenkins> I plan to try and spend an hour a night approving
<Red_HamsterX> It's just a couple of lists on my end.
<Red_HamsterX> I could have it grab a signoff list from bzr.
<Red_HamsterX> By using the web interface,
<Red_HamsterX> Or by spidering the directories.
<ubuntujenkins> but you haev to have an ssh key to get stuff from bzr so it would have to be done in the user and not the quickshot user
<Red_HamsterX> If any images were moved there by someone, then it'll consider them final.
<Red_HamsterX> Not quite.
<Red_HamsterX> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/quickshot/files
<Red_HamsterX> I was thinking of spidering this view.
<Red_HamsterX> Or grabing an individual file through it.
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, you don't need an ssh key if you just want to retrieve stuff from launchpad, but only when you want to upload anything I thought?
<ubuntujenkins> If you can do it a long as it works I don't mind how you do it all the branches for the screenshots are here https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots?field.lifecycle=ALL -: Red_HamsterX
<godbyk> are you guys going with bzr for the screenshot stuff or the http/web route?  (or is it still undecided?)
<Red_HamsterX> That's ocrrect. bzr export or bzr ls would be sufficient.
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87 I think yesterday in the meeting we worked out that you do need an ssh key i wasn't 100% sure
<Red_HamsterX> I've got the HTTP POST stuff working, godbyk.
<Red_HamsterX> I think what we're working out now is how to migrate data.
<godbyk> Oh, how to get it into the manual?
<Red_HamsterX> How to get it into the hands of writers and keep track of which screenshots are done, yes.
<godbyk> Gotcha.
<ubuntujenkins> mmm... I see the problem
<ubuntujenkins> if we can't get anything from bzr can we not have the server automatically update its self with the bzr branches?
<ubuntujenkins> then they would be jsut like folders
<godbyk> The server could periodically commit to the bzr branch.
<Red_HamsterX> It could, yes. That's not a problem.
<godbyk> I can have it log in as me, for instance and set a cronjob to run every so often to upload new screenshots.
<Red_HamsterX> The problem is choosing images as 'final'.
<Red_HamsterX> to mark as*
<godbyk> Aha.
<Red_HamsterX> Making it query bzr as the authoritative source would be easy, though.
<Red_HamsterX> bzr ls <path>; don't ever ask users for any files already committed.
<Red_HamsterX> (Or use the bzr-Python API)
<Red_HamsterX> (Or something)
<Red_HamsterX> Exporting files would also be quite easy.
<Red_HamsterX> Writing an automated tar-and-serve script is simple.
<ubuntujenkins> we will jsut have to aporve them as quickly as possible
<Red_HamsterX> Well, there's no reason why the server can't consider itself half-authoritative.
<Red_HamsterX> Prompting users only for files that have never been uploaded.
<Red_HamsterX> But allowing re-uploads of anything at the user's request.
<ubuntujenkins> we can tell the user which ones to re do right?
<ubuntujenkins> through the server?
<Red_HamsterX> Just take them out of bzr and remov ethem from the server and the client would start asking for the screenshot again.
<ubuntujenkins> cool that would probably be the best way. I have a bash script to merge all 47 language branches into the main screenshots branch
<Red_HamsterX> The logical flow would be 'client starts up and asks the server for a worklist', 'server queries bzr and determines what has already been approved', 'server queries local filesystem to determine what appears to have been completed', 'server sends client list of needed files and list of pending files'.
<Red_HamsterX> pending-approval*
<ubuntujenkins> that sounds good to me, I assume it is possible.
<Red_HamsterX> The GUI would them step through the needed files automatically. Some option to let the user explicitly say "I need to redo this other screenshot!" would need to be provided, too.
<Red_HamsterX> Perhaps a checklist or report view.
<Red_HamsterX> Double-click anything to launch its prompt-and-grab script again.
<Red_HamsterX> Or something.
<Red_HamsterX> That's for the GUI people.
<titeuf_87> that does sound good to me, and not too complicated either
<ubuntujenkins> I can do gui, not sure i understand what bit needs to be clicked, do we need an extra window or just a button?
<Red_HamsterX> Probably just a listbox or report view.
<Red_HamsterX> With three states for each program/screenshot.
<Red_HamsterX> "incomplete", "pending approval", and "complete".
<ubuntujenkins> my programming before this was the odd bit of bash /sh scripting so the tecnical stuff goes over my head at times. I only joined as a tester but this is fun
<ubuntujenkins> could it be added to the current screenshot window?
<ubuntujenkins> *description window
<titeuf_87> I would have a combobox to select the language, and when you select a language show that listbox correctly filled in
<titeuf_87> yeah, I would remove the second combobox from there and put in that listbox instead
<titeuf_87> then the user can click on a screenshot in the list and click on next to take it
<Red_HamsterX> Either that or prompt the user for a language and access credentials (to avoid exposing the upload-server) on startup.
<ubuntujenkins> the language can only be set for windows only the user has to log out and back in to do screenshots in other languages
<Red_HamsterX> Users would only be capping a single language at a time, right?
<Red_HamsterX> Language could probably be gathered from locale settings.
<ubuntujenkins> yes but it is possible to launch windows in other langauges i used firefox in german the other day
<Red_HamsterX> That sounds error-prone...
<ubuntujenkins> it can be gatthered from local settings I have a list of language coes but I haev misplaced it
<godbyk> EmperorDutchie?
<godbyk> How do I get a promotion like that?
<EmperorDutchie> godbyk: small joke in #ubuntu-uk :)
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> I thought you lot had kings and queens.
 * ubuntujenkins looks
<ubuntujenkins> we could if we had time get quickshot to launch a program in another language this " LANG=fr_CA.utf8 cheese"  is an example of how to do it
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah. Just export over the environment variables.
<Red_HamsterX> But the problem is that X, and everything dependent on it, runs in a higher-level process.
<ubuntujenkins> It would be safer to get the user to change their language themselves, the original thinking was that doing LANG=fr_CA.utf8 cheese menat the user could still log out easily. I struggled to log out in arabic the other day :-)
<Red_HamsterX> So it'd fail for full-screen things and things that makes calls to non-child processes.
<ubuntujenkins> yea it would fail for full screens but I am not sure there are many of them
<titeuf_87> maybe best then to keep it simple and before making the new user ask for the language to use?
<ubuntujenkins> I do agree it only there if we have time.
<Red_HamsterX> Wow. ReactOS still isn't dead.
<ubuntujenkins> Ok I will change the combobox to a list box sometime this week
<komsas> who is responsible for writing manual in single style?
<dutchie> komsas: the editors
<ubuntujenkins> Is react os linux with a lot of wine use Red_HamsterX?
<komsas> mm.. where I can find there names (nicks) ?
<Red_HamsterX> No, it is not.
<dutchie> in the editors section of the credits
<Red_HamsterX> It's an attempt at reimplementing all of Windows natively.
<Red_HamsterX> I figured it died, though.
<Red_HamsterX> 'Cause I hadn't heard anything in years.
<ubuntujenkins> wow I will have a look out of interest
<titeuf_87> looking at their screenshots, they seem to have made a lot of progress since last time I checked
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah.
<Red_HamsterX> Of course, I have no reason ot use Windows, so I don't really care, but it's impressive all the same.
<ubuntujenkins> Its always interesting none the less
<komsas> dutchie: so if someone ask who is responsible for lithuanian translation you will show credits? Translators section is big in credits.
<dutchie> you mean listing translators by language?
<komsas> why not ;)
<dutchie> it'd take up a lot of room
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, once your server implements the retrieving of screenshot lists, you'll let me know? I'll add it to quickshot's interface then together with the uploading of new ones
<ubuntujenkins> but can't we have it in the langauage of that manual anyway dutchie? A page will not do much harm
<dutchie> that'd be something for godbyk
 * godbyk looks up
<komsas> dutchie: so throw out all lisence ;))
<dutchie> komsas: legal obligations :/
<godbyk> One of the things I was thinking about doing was adding a colophon at the end of the manual.
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, of course. I'll be working on that next.
<godbyk> I have thought it through completely yet, so I don't know if it'd work well, ...
<godbyk> ... but it would contain the typefaces used and the translators who contributed to that particular translation.
<titeuf_87> ok, thanks! I'm off to sleep, night all
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, I'll probably be implementing a stub for now, though. It won't actually query anything; it'll just return data in a likely-to-never-be-changed manner so you can start parsing it.
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, sure that works :)
<ubuntujenkins> night I am off to I am so tired
<dutchie> godbyk: cool idea
<ubuntujenkins> thanks as always people
<dutchie> although I should imagine your todo list is quite long ;)
<godbyk> yeah.  I think I can do the typeface part automatically. I'd have to have the translators translate the paragraph and give me a list of translator names, of course.
<godbyk> dutchie: Yeah.. I'm making progress though.  I just pushed some code to handle the glossary.
<dutchie> cool
<dutchie> it works too :)
<godbyk> There are a ton of commands/variations that can be used for the glossary.
<komsas> how you will know who contributed translating manual?
<godbyk> It's gonna be interesting to see how it work in practice.
<dutchie> perhaps don't reference the glossary words in the glossary
<godbyk> The translators will hate me. :-)
<komsas> Yeee we will ! :D
<dutchie> komsas: I think the idea is the translators provide a list
<godbyk> Yeah, I'll probably take those out.  They were there for testing purposes before I added entries from the manual proper. :)
<godbyk> komsas: The translators will have to add their names to a list or something.
<komsas> who will check that this name did something? :)
<godbyk> I'll leave that up to the translation teams to figure out.
<komsas> I found that some buttons in the content began with the capital letters others are lowercase, do you know what is main style of buttons?
<godbyk> Usually the first letter is capitalized.
<komsas> on my keyboard all letters ar lowercase.
<godbyk> Really? What kind of keyboard?
<komsas> HP laptop
<godbyk> Interesting. All the keyboards I've seen have uppercase letters.
<komsas> take a look to content there are a lot of buttons with lowercase.
<godbyk> komsas: yeah, I've noticed that. I think it should be \keystroke{Enter}, not \keystroke{enter}.
<godbyk> Similarly, the \keystroke{down arrows} should just be "down arrows" (without the quotes).
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: hm, i think \keystroke{Down Arrow} is fine.
<komsas> so you prefer uppercase?
<IlyaHaykinson> i would also agree with \keystroke{Enter}
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: should we use the \glspl{} for every term?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sorry.. brain fart.. the example from the manual was \keystroke{arrow keys}, which should just be 'arrow keys' (no \keystroke).
<IlyaHaykinson> i use \emph{term} for various terms here and there
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: \keystroke{Down arrow} is fine.
 * IlyaHaykinson just checked the GNOME documentation help. should be down arrow, all lowercase
<c7p> hello
<c7p> i have to translate a string like "click \button{forward} to continue"
<c7p> should i translate forward or not
<dutchie> yes
<c7p> ok thx
<dutchie> but not button
<komsas> forward in uppercase?
<c7p> no
<c7p> i copy n paste the string above
<c7p> another question
<IlyaHaykinson> if it's translated in the interface
<IlyaHaykinson> (it may be, right?)
<c7p> i have the "\screenshotTODO{Installation: first installation screen}" string, i have to translate the period inside the '{ }' ?
<dutchie> dunno, ask godbyk
<c7p> i think this have to with quickshot (?)
<dutchie> that command is just to fill in the space and flag that we need one
<c7p> nice :)
<godbyk> c7p: You don't have to translate the \screenshotTODO stuff at the moment.
<godbyk> That's just to give us an idea of what screenshots we'll need.
<godbyk> (We may have you translate the screenshot descriptions at some point a bit later, though.)
<c7p> thx for the information
<Red_HamsterX> Anyone have any experience traversing a bzr branch using bzrlib?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-03-01
<ChrisWoollard> Thanks for that
#ubuntu-manual 2011-03-04
<zkriesse> Guys need help bad eh?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-03-06
<issyl0> 2
<issyl0> Argh.
<leighman> found a missing space on learning-more.tex line 29
<leighman> what should I do?
<nisshh> leighman, branch it, fix it, commit it :)
<nisshh> or i can do it if you dont know how
<leighman> I'll give it a try :P
<nisshh> go for it, let me know if you need any help
<nisshh> leighman, ^^^
<leighman> hmm, do you see a missing space on page 142 of trunk?
<leighman> maybe I just built it wrong or something :/
<leighman> at îese
<leighman> systems are called âpaîºage management systems.â Debian soî¹ware paîºages
<leighman> are îîî files, while Red Hat soî¹ware paîºages are î¢î î files.
<leighman> man Evince copy-paste fail
<nisshh> one sec
<nisshh> leighman, where is the missing space exactly, im looking at line 29 and i dont see it
<nisshh> i see a space before and after the word These on line 29
<nisshh> in the source, anway
<nisshh> anyway
<leighman> it appears for me in the pdf
<leighman> between the "package management systems" and Debian
<leighman> putting a space before the above  \marginnote in source solved it but maybe, as I say, I just have something misconfigured which gives this problem
<nisshh> let me compile, give me a minute
<nisshh> damn this machine is slow
<nisshh> still compiling
<nisshh> leighman, oh i see, there is actually a missing space there, would you like to fix it or shall i?
<leighman> there seem to be a few around there
<leighman> wouldn't mind if I could give it a try
<nisshh> no, no, go ahead :)
<leighman> okay, I uploaded to https://code.launchpad.net/~leighman/ubuntu-manual/fix-missing-spaces, is that right?
<leighman> what is the actual required texlive package?
<nisshh> leighman, no, dont upload a seperate branch, commit and push the same one :)
<nisshh> trunk is public, anyone can make changes
<leighman> ah, okay, thanks, pushed
#ubuntu-manual 2013-02-28
<root_> Hi, I'm Russell, I'd like to join the ubuntu-manual team! I have experience with both Python and Tex/Latex. Email is russellatwork@yahoo.com.
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<hannie> hey carsten, I am currently attending #ubuntu-meeting (docs team)
<CarstenG> Ah, ok. I just joined :-)
<hannie> saw you come in ;)
<redtape-renegade> CarstenG: What was the Ubuntu page for ther Chinese translation of the manual again ???
<CarstenG> Hi redtape-renegade: You find the translation page here: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/
<CarstenG> There you see the links to the different releases and a link to all available languages
<redtape-renegade> I found a guy on fiverr.com that can translate the Manual into Mandarin for Â£185 http://goo.gl/2eJpU  .. I'm looking into it, but I think 1345 Million people may benefit from it. So I'll contact him in the morning .. thanks.
