#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-12-08
<ScottL> TheMuso, any luck on figuring how to get classic as default instead of unity?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Haven't looked at all sorry, busy with other things.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i understand, i know you have a lot to do with accessibility within unity which i expect was practically non-existant
<TheMuso> Pretty much.
<ScottL> are you aware of anyone in particular who is familiar with unity that i might bug to try to dig an answer?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-12-09
<TheMuso> Ask the desktop team when around.
<TheMuso> i.e Europe hours.
<ScottL> okay, thanks :)
<kubotu> thanks :) how are you?
<frewsxcv> who's the ubuntustudio lead nowadays?
<ScottL> frewsxcv, that is me
<ScottL> okay, thanks :)
<astraljava> wow, that was weird.
<ScottL> what is that astraljava?
<ScottL> frewsxcv, did you need something?
<astraljava> ScottL: kubotu responding to your line at the first time :)
<ScottL> yeah, it's done that a few times over several days, and it seems like it will not repeat itself though
<ScottL> abogani, i'm going to start testing the -lowlatency kernel this weekend
<ScottL> i was hoping to have done it already with the ubuntustudio alpha image, but we know where that is :(
<kubotu> anyone knows what's with the easy stuff first
<ScottL> lol, you rock, kubotu!  keep on living in the free world
<ScottL> abogani, so, i'm building a new box to give away and i'll play with it first, i'll install vanilla ubuntu (even an older image before unity was default perhaps)
<ScottL> and install the necessary apps and test the kernel
<abogani> ScottL: Ok, Thanks!
<ScottL> abogani, once we get an image that works as expected (re: unity) i was going to email and post about the new kernel, explaining that we need testing to facilitate getting it into the archives
<scott-work_> TheMuso:  after talking with didirock i think have found a way to set the default gdm session
<scott-work_> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/natty/ubuntu-netbook-default-settings/natty/annotate/head%3A/debian/postinst
<scott-work_> i'm going to dig around some more because it looks like it might dig a script our to do it
<scott-work_> but i'm sure i will need some assistance at some point
<frewsxcv> ScottL: no, i was just curious
<scott-work_> okay (this is ScottL...at work)
<scott-work_> i've talked to didirock some more and tomorrow he is going to walk me through what he did for setting gnome as the default session
<TheMuso> scott-work_: nice
<scott-work_> TheMuso:  don't get too excited :)  you should know that i'm not a programmer so i'll probably still ending up needing help
<TheMuso> heh
<TheMuso> ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-12-05
<scott-work> good morning
<scott-work> shnatsel: here is what i have so far for the artwork blueprint:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/new-images-plymouth-lightdm-wallpaper
<scott-work> it's kinda vague in some areas, but it's what i have
<scott-work> and i used the wiki for the spec
<scott-work> i know you really prefer google docs though
<shnatsel> scott-work: I know wiki is preferred in processes of official derivatives, and it's probably more pleasant to read, the only problem about it is that collaboration is a PITA
<shnatsel> scott-work: oh yeah, good morning :)
<shnatsel> scott-work: issues with plymouth-x11 but not real boot probably indicate that there's a bug in multi-monitor support
<shnatsel> scott-work: I think you should show it off in #ubuntu-design now and invite people to participate
<shnatsel> scott-work: add proposals to the specification and blueprint
<scott-work> shnatsel: show off the blueprint in #ubuntud-design?  i can do that
<scott-work> #ubuntu-design
<shnatsel> scott-work: yeah, and also contact doctormo directly I think
<shnatsel> scott-work: a post to ubuntu artwork team list might help too
<shnatsel> scott-work: though it's largely disbanded
<scott-work> shnatsel: cool, i can do that too
<shnatsel> scott-work: regarding the new xubuntu-based theme - it's so similar to elementary, and the icons are elementary set for sure
<shnatsel> scott-work: the typography still needs work, though
<shnatsel> scott-work: http://www.design-by-izo.com/2011/10/18/what-should-i-look-for-in-a-ui-typeface/
<shnatsel> scott-work: and here are elementary font defaults, they're proven to work well: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5279564/elementary-os-fonts.png
 * scott-work is looking
<scott-work> shnatsel: xubuntu uses droid as default font
<shnatsel> scott-work: even more so :)
<scott-work> shnatsel: what do you think about ubuntu mono ?
<shnatsel> scott-work: terrible
<shnatsel> scott-work: well, it takes a while to get used to it, but it still looks awkward
<shnatsel> scott-work: I like Ubuntu font for example, it's distinctive and readable and doesn't feel odd
<shnatsel> scott-work: some decisions in ubuntu-mono are reasonable and I agree with the rationale behind them, but it still has some quirks and looks odd, especially when it's surrounded by droid sans or other conventional font
<shnatsel> scott-work: g2g now. see you
<scott-work> bye
<scott-work> bam and you're gone :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-12-06
<micahg> ScottL: re updating seeds> I'd suggest updating as you go so the changes get coverage in the daily images, you can then poke for a meta upload at your leisure
<micahg> ScottL: also, not being an "Xfce Ubuntu" per se, Ubuntu Studio has more flexibility WRT default apps, you should be able to use most GTK based apps w/out issue in Xfce, the only issue might be a GTK3 theme, but you'll inherit one from Xubuntu in any case
 * micahg should probably just reply to the ML in context
<ScottL> micahg, what will (or should) happen with the setting packages that will be OEL'd
<ScottL> xubuntu includes much more setting in a single package (i.e. -default-settings) than ubuntu studio 
<micahg> OEL'd?
<micahg> ScottL: you can inherit or make your own
<ScottL> micahg, what i mean is that some of the existing ubuntu studio packages will not be necessary
<ScottL> should have said "existing ubuntu studio setting packages"
<ScottL> for example, ubuntustudio-icon-theme should no longer be necessary
<micahg> ScottL: that's fine, you can seed/unseed whatever you wish, if you need something removed from the archive, let me know
<ScottL> micahg, okay it's the 'removing from the archive' that i will need to seek...but later, let's get things built and released and see about doing the actual 'removing' next cycle
<ScottL> just being prudent
<micahg> archive removals just need sponsorship in terms of acknowledgment that it's the proper course of action, so you just file a bug with the reasoning and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors
<micahg> that's fine too, just letting you know you have some freedom here
<micahg> you are not bound by what xubuntu does (except WRT the xfce component versions :))
<ScottL> ack'd
<ScottL> so you are suggesting that i might parse out what is in the xubuntu-default-settings package into the respective ubuntustudio-* package?
<ScottL> i hadn't considered this
<ScottL> i understand what you mean now about making changes and seeing results without changing seeds
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-12-07
<ScottL> stochastic, i got your email but it didn't say anything except quoting me
<stochastic> hrrm, strange ScottL I sent it from my phone, not sure what happened
<stochastic> I'll re-send
 * stochastic just got home
<knome> i suppose some of you *could* be interested: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/precise_wall/brainstorm-20111207-01-rays.png
<stochastic> knome is there a way to get the dots on the new site to have a blue centre on the current page (i.e. if we're looking at the audio tab, the third dot would signify that)?  Also I notice the backgrounds don't load right at the start of the pageload but rather once that tab is clicked on (creating a background lag while the image loads) - can we load them all at first initial page load?
<knome> stochastic, i need to check the dots stuff, but that should be possible yeah, and yes, i need to preload the images
<falktx_> howdy
 * abogani waves all
<ScottL> hi knome , falktx_ , abogani 
<knome> hey ScottL 
<knome> i'm leaving in 15mins, but hey still :))
<ScottL> abogani, i'm going to email steve about making sure the kernel is progressing
<ScottL> abogani, even if steve has the best of intentions he might not completely appreciate our desire to get that kernel into the repos this cycle
<abogani> ScottL: Obviously.
<ScottL> abogani, this might even require skipping a few "steps" in the blueprint and pushing this to REVU very, very soon
<ScottL> abogani, but i will await his response before doing any precipitously
<ScottL> knome, :)   don't do much on the website about the dots yets, i want to talk with stochastic about that
<knome> yeah, not doing
<abogani> ScottL: It sounds reasonable.
<knome> might get to that @weekend or so
<ScottL> stochastic:  holstein and i were talking about just making the slide show automatic
<ScottL> stochastic: one part of the slide show isn't necessarily more important than another and removing the dots might save some space for more text
<ScottL> stochastic: but let me play with it tonight and we can discuss a little further
<knome> bbl ->
<ScottL> stochastic: my goal for the slide show is to give examples of use cases for potential users to show them why they should use ubuntu studio, then the feature tour can explain more about it
<ScottL> stochastic: i had what i thought was decent verbiage until holstein pointed out that it wasn't fitting on laptop screens and pushing the "See More" button into the row of white buttons
 * ScottL is heading to work
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-12-08
<stochastic> ScottL, I agree that the slideshow should be automatic, but at the same time the user should be able to move manually through it (smaller dots) if they're a slow or impatient reader
<stochastic> knome ^^
<knome> right
<knome> what should the time between transitions be?
<knome> i can set a timer the next time i work on the site
<ScottL> knome, stochastic, i would the slide show would be pretty quick per page, maybe 8 - 10 secs, as there shouldn't end up being too much on those pages
<knome> ...
<shnatsel> sorry for the flood
<astraljava> No worries. Plenty of room behind the sauna.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-12-09
<micahg> ScottL: I'll be uploading a new ubuntustudio-meta this weekend once armhf complete, is there anything you want to get it?
<jussi> I just aksed in #kubuntu-devel, but Ill repeat here because I think there is interest from both sides.
<jussi> is anyone working to package the latest version of kdenlive for precise and oneiric? 
<jussi> announcement here: http://kdenlive.org/users/j-b-m/kdenlive-0821-released
<astraljava> jussi: I could get on it, if no one is. But I'd be surprised if it isn't packaged for debian as we speak^Wtype.
<jussi> astraljava: likely. Just Ive no idea who takes care of it. 
<astraljava> jussi: debian-multimedia team. Which usually means alessio. :D
<jussi> hehe, nice
<ScottL> micahg, there are a few items i would like to address, can you give me 36 hours ?
<micahg> ScottL: sure, can you leave me a ping/e-mail when you're done?
<micahg> ScottL: you have at least 36 hours from the ping before I'll touch anything anyways :)
<micahg> scott-work: ^^
<scott-work> thanks micahg 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-12-10
<ScottL> micahg, when you are available i would like to ask you some logistic questions about transitioning the -settings files
<ScottL> heh, i suppose i could just ask now and you can answer whenever you get back actually
<ScottL> since you are going redo the meta packages i think using the same structure as xubuntu would be most advantageous for sustainaibility
<ScottL> to do this i would in essence be completely replacing the current ubuntustudio-default-settings package, replacing it with xubuntu-default-settings package, and modifying setting/replacing images
<ScottL> the question is: is there a preferred way to do this?
<ScottL> should i start with ubuntustudio-default-settings, rm everything, bzr remove everything, then add xubuntu-default-settings, and finally bzr add the new stuff?
<ScottL> another way?
<shnatsel> ScottL: metapackages are generated from seeds and seeds structure probably will be dictated by workflows
<shnatsel> ScottL: if we are going to show workflows instead of categories in the installer, of course
<ScottL> shnatsel, i know, but micah and i had a talk about how to structure the theme and settings transition
<ScottL> xubuntu uses basically two packages; -default-settings and -artwork while ubuntustudio has more parse out into multiple packages
<ScottL> if we just went with the xubuntu structure, this would require adjusting the seeds to remove the "extra" ubuntustudio packages
<ScottL> and require someone to rebuild the metas
<ScottL> micah suggested parsing the xubuntu-default-settings into the applicable ubuntu studio packages (-default-settings, -icon-theme, -look, etc)
<ScottL> which would avoid having to rebuild the metas at this time and also distribute the changes across multiple daily images
<ScottL> but since he is going to touch the meta anyway for another issue, then i wanted to do the quicker and more easily (i believe) maintained wholesale switch to the xubuntu-default-settings structure
<shnatsel> we use default-settings and artwork in elementary too
<ScottL> i presume the changes in studio were incremental and without holistic consideration and therefore fragmented packages were created as needed
<ScottL> doesn't mean this is wrong or bad, it's just how i _think_ it happened
<ScottL> but i would really prefer to keep it as close to xubuntu for easier maintainability
<knome> the good thing with one larger package is that once you get a freeze exception, you can slip in other changes more easily too
<knome> O:)
<ScottL> hehe
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-12-11
<micahg> ScottL: in theory, depending on how much you want to customize, you can depend on the xubuntu-default-settings package and override what you want to customize
<astraljava> You know, that's not a bad suggestion at all.
<astraljava> On another note, is there anyone coming for the meeting in 4 hours?
<astraljava> I'm just thinking whether I should pull out an agenda or not.
<knome> do you have an agenda somewhere?
<knome> hehe.
<astraljava> I have it where the sun doesn't shine.
<knome> urr
<astraljava> Yes, mine.
<ScottL> astraljava, yes, i would like to have a meeting
<ScottL> it's about 2.25 hours hence for me at this time
<ScottL> for an agenda, probably reviewing the current blueprints will be a good idea and maybe current or new bugs
<ScottL> here is the 'master' blueprint for all the others: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
 * ScottL is goinhg upstairs to hopefully do some bzr magic
<astraljava> ScottL: Alright, I'll start preparing the agenda.
<astraljava> ScottL: According to my specs, 1700UTC isn't until 3 hours from now.
<ScottL> 1700?  oh, this might be my mistake as i thought it was 1600
<ScottL> maybe i'm confusing the other -release meeting time with our time
<astraljava> Yeah okay.
<ScottL> but i'm good for the extra hour :)
<astraljava> Oh, I know _you_ are.
<astraljava> Damn, we have a lot of bugs.
<ScottL> i believe a majority of those might be marked as "won't fix" for the older ones
<ScottL> more specifically, i meant any new bugs that have appeared lately like the ones len mentions on the ML
<astraljava> I did find only one new bug, but we're having a complete list of all bugs on supported releases, we can prioritize in the meeting.
<astraljava> I'm already marking those that can either Invalid, Fix Released or some other clear state.
 * holstein ^5's astraljava 
<holstein> you knocked out a bunch of bugs
<astraljava> A few, yes. But there are still lots.
<astraljava> I'm going to list them as bugs to be discussed on the meeting. Obviously we don't need to go through them all, but just so that they are listed somewhere, as we seriously need to work on our bugs better.
<astraljava> Okay, agenda done from my part. Please add other topics if you feel like it.
<knome> hahah. the promotor for the finnish paul mccartney gig is called scott lavender.
<astraljava> Cool.
<ScottL> knome, there is also a pianist that does iron maiden music called scott lavender
<ScottL> i get asked somewhat often if i an _that_ scott lavender :P
<knome> hehe
<ScottL> i'll be about five minutes late for the meeting if it's now, just sitting down for breakfast
 * astraljava pings everybody for the meeting is @ #ubuntu-meeting
<scott-upstairs> i
<scott-upstairs> in for the meeting
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, is it time now?
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Yes it is.
<astraljava> Agenda updated, and so is the Meetings page.
<astraljava> Made small mods to it, so if you feel they're okay, please copy from today's page from now on (or the latest, which makes sense, really).
<micahg> scott-upstairs: is the ubuntustudio-meta ready?
<scott-upstairs> micahg, sorry, not yet, i will be tonight though
<scott-upstairs> i got sidetracked yesterday
<micahg> scott-upstairs: sure, no worries, anytime you're ready, the packages are built (armhf)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-12-03
<Len-nb> micahg, ubuntustudio-look - https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/UbuntuStudio has been updated and is ready for release.
<Len-nb> It has been decided to remove the version.
<Len-nb> micahg, this helps by giving less maintenance as well as better centering the text on the screen.
<Len-nb> micahg, sorry, I should have said "in plymouth".
<Len-nb> ScottL, FYI ^^^
<ScottL> Len-nb: do you by chance notice that it had my "artwork license update" as well?
<ScottL> i woudl like to mark that as complete rather than just "inprogress"
<Len-nb> ScottL, yes
<ScottL> awesome :)
<Len-nb> Ya, when it is released we can mark both as DONE
<ScottL> okay, leaving for the night so some video can render. i should be on in the morning
<smartboyhw> zequence, if you can: Explain how do you actually make posts in the website please///
<zequence> smartboyhw: No hurry with that. You are assigned to make posts for beta and r.c. testing only so far
<smartboyhw> zequence, gum I am worrying that when beta posts come I won't be able to make the announcements:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll show you how to make a draft
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> smartboyhw: First, head to ubuntustudio.org/wp-admin to log ing
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> smartboyhw: You should end up looking at the dashboard
<smartboyhw> zequence, ah now I get it:D
<zequence> smartboyhw: On the left view, you can see "Posts"
 * smartboyhw just doesn't know how to log in:P
<smartboyhw> Now I get it
<smartboyhw> Yeah thx zequence 
<zequence> smartboyhw: So, add a new Post. But, do not "publish" it
<zequence> You can play around with editing it, previewing it, etc
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> smartboyhw: Have a look here, to see who is doing what https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelations
 * smartboyhw is look
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK:D 
<zequence> smartboyhw: If we have anything else we'd like to test, other than beta or RC, you can post about that too, but I don't see anything happening until some time next year, the earlies
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep. 
<smartboyhw> BTW Edubuntu quit Alpha 1 too, now really only Kubuntu is playing it....
<scott-work> good morning everyone
<scott-work> interested post on g+ this morning from dick mackinnis of dream studio
<scott-work> http://www.dickmacinnis.com/dreamstudio/dream-studio-officially-launches-new-services/
<scott-work> ^^^ that's not the link to the g+ post, but to his website post which the g+ links to
<scott-work> he has done some very interesting stuff:
<scott-work> 1. he apparently has made an easy tool to "upgrade" from vanilla ubuntu to dream studio (this may interest zequence)
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work 
<scott-work> 2. he differentiates between 'dream studio OS' and 'dream studio for ubuntu' (not terribly important but i find it interesting)
<smartboyhw> Ooh
<scott-work> 3. has a number of instruction tutorial videos http://www.dickmacinnis.com/dreamstudio/dream-studio-live-instruction/
<scott-work> (these are paid content, you pay $30 an hour and he will support you through skype)
<scott-work> 4. he has a paid service for updating to the latest apps: http://www.dickmacinnis.com/dreamstudio/dream-studio-subscription/
<scott-work> the one video i found was for installation and it includes a section very much like the ubiquity plugin we have been trying to get implemented: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO99lq3slg8
<scott-work> i would say that is very ambitious of him and an interesting payment model
<scott-work> his accomplishments are inspiring me get some of the stuff i had wanted to do for ubuntu studio done
<scott-work> although i am slightly jealous of some of what he has done because we had those same ideas as well but haven't gotten them done :P
<zequence> If we can just get our thumbs out for 6 months, I don't see anyone being able to compete with what we could offer
<zequence> I think it looks interesting, but I don't understand why he doesn't work on Ubuntu Studio isntead
<scott-work> zequence: +1 your last sentence
<scott-work> zequence: look at ubuntustudio.org, tell me if you like what you see
<zequence> scott-work: I tried that yesterday, but didn't really like. I guess it could work, but it's a little rough, and looks too much like a blog to me
<zequence> I think it's actually quite optimal to only have the slideshow and a news feed, plus a menu, like now. Maybe I'd just prefer a different design
<zequence> scott-work: I see you added the about page
<zequence> Or, moved the front page there
<zequence> Would be nice to rewrite that page, I think
<zequence> scott-work: Ah, now I see. You put the news page onto the frontpage. The articles are minimized. That's good
 * smartboyhw still can't see much new things
<zequence> smartboyhw: The content of the front page was moved to "About Us" and "News" was moved to the front page
<smartboyhw> zequence, gee I thought it had been there when you taught me how to login:P
<zequence> But it's good if you didn't notice, cause that must mean it's very natural to have things this way
<zequence> Snowing. -7 C. I've ran 12km today. Will run 4 more when I head home for the second time today
<zequence> Living like a FinnoKenyan for a couple of weeks. Running between the office and home, 2 times back and forth
<zequence> Every day
<zequence> Hoping this will improve strength. Need to eat like a horse too
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<astraljava> I couldn't be bothered to consume huge amounts of hay, though.
<zequence> astraljava: I don't much hay. But, I do eat lots of oat though
<scott-work> zequence: we can always move the news stuff away from the home page again and leave the news titles on the right
<scott-work> zequence: i definitely agree that the "about us" text could be rewritten. my idea was that it would be much easier to write it when we explore the mission statement item
<scott-work> this falls into the category of "defining the problem tells you which answer you are looking for" :P
<smartboyhw> scott-work, that is better:P
<zequence> scott-work: I think we should go with this. If someone has any ideas on how to improve it, we could talk with knome about taht
<smartboyhw> Sadly knome isn't in this channel, is he in #xubuntu-devel?
<smartboyhw> Yes hmm
<scott-work> zequence: sounds good :)  i had changed it to also only show 5 items at a time (i felt that the default 10 was too much)
<zequence> scott-work: I could imagine even 3 is enough, but then one would like to have a link to a page which shows all
<zequence> Or, even 1. And have a news feed on the side
<zequence> Just thinking out loud
<zequence> There's nothing telling the visitor that there's a news feed, so a header might be nice
<zequence> Something like "Latest News"
<zequence> scott-work: How about this? only three posts, and a news feed on the side
<scott-work> zequence: that sounds good
<scott-work> one thing i don't like with the current setup is that there isn't a page with _all_ the news, but....
<scott-work> i'm not sure this is bad because links still work to whatever page, one can search in google for any article, and one can search in the website for any article
<zequence> scott-work: I think that is something we could get help with
<zequence> scott-work: I'm setting up a staging area, that we control
<zequence> scott-work: This way we can upload changes to the code, and see the results, not having to deal with rt.ubuntu.com, until we're satisfied
<smartboyhw> zequence, wow good thing.
<scott-work> sounds good to me
<holstein> !ru | smartboyhw ...you can just shoot non english speakers those links from the bot
<ubottu> smartboyhw ...you can just shoot non english speakers those links from the bot: ÐÐ¾Ð¶Ð°Ð»ÑÐ¹ÑÑÐ° Ð½Ð°Ð±ÐµÑÐ¸ÑÐµ /join #ubuntu-ru Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð»ÑÑÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¼Ð¾ÑÐ¸ Ð½Ð° ÑÑÑÑÐºÐ¾Ð¼ ÑÐ·ÑÐºÐµ. | Pozhalujsta naberite /join #ubuntu-ru dlya polucheniya pomoshi na russkom yazyke.
<holstein> !fr
<ubottu> Nous sommes dÃ©solÃ©s, mais ce canal est en anglais uniquement. Si vous avez besoin d'aide ou voulez discuter en franÃ§ais, veuillez taper /join #ubuntu-fr ou /join #ubuntu-qc. Merci.
<micahg> Len-nb: can the uploads wait until Wed evening/Thursday?
<scott-work> holstein: that is awesome about the translations!
<scott-work> how are you doing, man?
<holstein> scott-work: eh... not bad
<holstein> tired
<holstein> you gud?
<scott-work> yeah, been doing some videos, starting to move into other videos now, trying to finish my album :)
<smartboyhw> holstein, sorry don't know:P
<ttoine> hello
<zequence> ttoine: Hi
<zequence> ttoine: Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelations
<zequence> scott-work and me did some work on that yesterday
<zequence> All is set, except the plugin is not installed
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> zequence, great
<ttoine> zequence, should we post about major update of applications like gimp, ardour, etc. and how to backport it ?
<micahg> well, I think gimp is different than ardour
<ttoine> zequence, for videocast, we should define some common intro, outro, and chapter screens to use
<ttoine> maybe we can create some inkscape templates for that
<zequence> ttoine: I think we should backport stuff ourselves, but posting about major updates is ok with me. If the update is not in Ubuntu Studio, either mention it should be for next release, or we will be backporting it (if we are going to)
 * micahg doesn't care who requests a backport of a new app FWIW
<ttoine> zequence, so it is necessary to add something about that on the wiki page
<micahg> as long as people do the testing
<micahg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBackports#Requesting_a_Backport
<zequence> ttoine: backporting is a developer task, not something for our users to be reading about IMO
<ttoine> e.g. before posting about an application update, check with the Ubuntu Studio team if it is going to be backported
<zequence> I'm just thinking out loud on that, but this would make sense to me
<micahg> zequence: FWIW, requesting a backport/testing can be a user task, the actual backport is done by someone on the ubuntu-backporters team
<ttoine> zequence, I agree, but it would be interessant for our user to know if the application update is going to be bakcported or if they have to use backport until next release
<micahg> and the backporters team will help with test packages as well
<micahg> *if needed
<zequence> micahg: Yeah, but I don't think we should be asking user to backport stuff for us. If we know we want to backport something, we should just do it ourselves, is what I was thinking
<ttoine> zequence, and then, let our user know it
<micahg> zequence: oh, sure, that's fine, but it might be nice to let people know that backports of newer versions of some things are possible unless you plan on backporting whatever is available
<zequence> Better to try get more people involved in development, which is one of the big tasks for us this cycle
<micahg> I think with Studio, there are a lot of apps that get improvements that people would want to see
<micahg> *see backported
<zequence> micahg: Good point
<micahg> but if they have an itch to scratch, then can drive it
<zequence> ttoine: If we do any kind of update, that is news stuff of course
<zequence> ttoine: I think you should just find your own way with the news reporting. And if you have ideas about user involvement, that's great
<zequence> I won't be very active on anything for a couple of weeks at least, so there will be no progress on developer docs
<micahg> sorry to interrupt :)
<zequence> Perhaps I can get most of it done after Xmas
<zequence> micahg: No, it's fine :)
<ttoine> micahg, I can see that backporting is not so fast in Ubuntu: just check "sound converter". after several weeks, it is updated in Debian, but still not in Ubuntu... 
<zequence> ttoine: Debian ?. Not Stable, right?
<micahg> ttoine: no one has requested a backport yet :)
<ttoine> micahg, me
<ttoine> zequence, yes, sid
<micahg> but yeah, I haven't had so much time for backports, I hope to get back to it next week
<micahg> ttoine: I see no request in my queue :)
<zequence> ttoine: Please add any backport tasks here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/ubuntustudio-backports
<ttoine> micahg, I can find anymore the bug about that point
<zequence> ttoine: sid is their development release, so it is updated constantly
<zequence> ttoine: If there's a bug, we should fix it, and then do a SRU
<zequence> ttoine: heh, I've added it here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/ubuntustudio-sru
<micahg> ttoine: raring is ahead of sid for soundconverter
<zequence> LP #1077508
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077508 in soundconverter (Ubuntu) "2.0.1 is bugged, update to 2.0.4" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077508
<ttoine> micahg, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/soundconverter
<micahg> oh, right, that's the funny SRU one....
<ttoine> how can I ask for backport in 12.04 ?
<micahg> ttoine: that's a tricky one, it's not necessarily a backport
<micahg> did someone talk to the SRU team about whether or not they'd take the whole update wholesale?
<zequence> I haven't done anything on that yet
<micahg> ttoine: if it was a normal package, it would be 'requestbackport -d precise PKGNAME', but this is an exceptional case
<ttoine> zequence, how did you recover the bug number ? I can't find it...
<ttoine> micahg, and is there other packages like sound converter that are exceptional cases ?
<micahg> ttoine: idk, backport is normally for new features, SRU for bug fixes
<zequence> ttoine: Look at the links I posted :)
<zequence> I gotta go. bbl
<zequence> I've added it as a SRU task, so that was what I was planning for it
<zequence> I still need to SRU jackd2 as well
<zequence> Thought I'd do them both at once
<ttoine> zequence, ok
<ttoine> micahg, ok
<scott-work> ttoine: i haven't read everything above but...just filing a bug isn't quite enough, the right backports team needs to be assigned to the bug or it will not get done, see the link that micahg posted. also if anyone really wants to make sure it gets done then do the testing included in the link.
<scott-work> oops, sorry. i see that micahg and zequence cleared it up and that soundconverter isn't gonig to be a normal backport
<ttoine> scott-work, hard to read everything when working
<ttoine> I know that
<scott-work> ttoine: heh, i understand because apparently i did the same :P
<ttoine> ;-)
<scott-work> ttoine: sorry, wasn't trying to be difficult or insulting, but i know there many have misunderstandings about backporting and wanted to make sure everyone involved understood. however, i'm glad you already knew about it :)
<ttoine> scott-work, sometime developper stuff are confusing for me
<ttoine> backport and sru are quite the same problem but not the same way to solve
<scott-work> ttoine: do you feel we can mark the first task on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/ubuntustudio-public-relations as DONE ?
<scott-work> ttoine: i also started (but not published) a press page on the website to address the second item as well, the links need to be curated however
<ttoine> scott-work, It is ok
<ttoine> scott-work, we should create some guideline about posting news about backports and SRU
<zequence> ttoine: I don't think we need to have any guidelines about that. If one of us wants something backported, or sru's or anyone in the community wants it, we add it to the blueprints, and someone will do it
<zequence> ttoine: If we have backported or SRU'd something, it is good if the PR folks are notified
<zequence> So that it can be mentioned in news
<zequence> We could make it a routine, that whenever we update anything on a non development release, we notify PR team
<zequence> ttoine: Ah, perhaps that is what you meant. Whenver something is updated, the PR team should be notified?
<scott-work> i thought ttoine meant more about some guidelines for what text to use in the news post. which could be considered part of the "standard verbiage" task though
<scott-work> would someone more knowledgeable about testing than i like to write a news post for the website explaining how me aren't doing the usual milestones?
<ttoine> zequence, that's what i meant, yes
<ttoine> but the scott-work idea about guidelines is a goos idea too
<scott-work> looking at the misc blueprint. do we really want to "Make sure GRUB menu shows for 10 sec by default"?
<scott-work> if a user (such as myself :P ) only has ubuntu studio on their machine they might not really appreciate this
<ttoine> scott-work, the matter is for people with laptop
<ttoine> for batterie life time, it is better to use a generic kernel when not making music
<ttoine> so the aim was to find a way for users to have the choice
<scott-work> sorry, lost connection due to webchat
<scott-work> ttoine: this is the last thing i saw "so the aim was to find a way for users to have the choice"
<scott-work> hmmm, that is a very good point about laptops
<scott-work> i seem to recall that grub can show a menu if more than one kernel is present, i wonder if this correct?
<ttoine> scott-work, the matter is for people with laptop
<ttoine> <ttoine> for batterie life time, it is better to use a generic kernel when not making music
<ttoine> <ttoine> so the aim was to find a way for users to have the choice
<ttoine> scott-work, you can press the shift key at startup to have the menu
<ttoine> or it will show if there are an other system than ubuntu
<ttoine> but if there is only ubuntu and many kernel, it won't show
<Len-nb> micahg, no rush on the ubuntustudio-look package. Thankyou.
<zequence> scott-work: I think the answer to keeping news feeds coordinated is just to have a habit of posting about any new stuff we did on the mail list. Then anyone in the PR team can use material from there, and create official news from it
<scott-work> that sounds good
<zequence> I guess another good practice might be for PR people to subscribe to changes
<zequence> But, on what? Everything?
<scott-work> no, not everything
<scott-work> let's wait until we start the first serious backport and evaluate what we need to do
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-12-04
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> nobody ?
<holstein> ttoine: o/
<scott-work> hi ttoine 
<scott-work> can someone tell me what the menu entry is labeled for start the update manager in 12.10?
 * scott-work isn't on a linux machine at work :/
<zequence> scott-work: update-manager
<zequence> Er, or that's the command
<scott-work> i meant what is the menu entry labeled as?  i'm presuming it is under the "system" main menu entry and there is "update manager" or similar under there
<zequence> Well, the desktop file says: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1410986/
<len-dt> scott-work, wow, the name has changed. From zequence paste it is now Software Updater. My disk agrees. I guess it is easier for a clueless person to figure out what the application does.
 * len-dt thinks most clueless people never touch anything in the system menu anyway...
<zequence> len-dt: scott-work: I'm actually on 13.04, so perhaps it's called something else on 12.10
<scott-work> thank you, however i haven't had time at work today to address this issue so i'll take care of it tonight on the 12.10 install
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-12-05
<len-dt> zequence, same in 12.10
<len-dt> I'm not running 12.10, but have a disk with it on this machine.
<smartboyhw> Um now can someone tell me what that merge is for!?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Check the bug report https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-selector/+bug/1076975
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076975 in language-selector (Ubuntu) "Please port input method function to use im-config" [Undecided,In progress]
<smartboyhw> zequence, then you merge it (strangely since the Website Team is now under the Dev Team I actually get direct push access to ~ubuntustudio-dev branches)
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work 
<zequence> smartboyhw: Really? That's a mistake. I suggest you do not do any merges on your own. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, that is a mistake....
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw 
 * smartboyhw will not do any merge
<smartboyhw> scott-work, zequence please fix it then:P
<zequence> scott-work: smartboyhw says the website team gets ubuntustudio-dev team privileges
<scott-work> zequence: ooooooh. hmmmm, we need to fix that
<smartboyhw> since ubuntustudio-website is a direct subteam of ubuntustudio-dev
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yes:D
<zequence> Maybe the teams should have the opposite relationship
<zequence> Or none at all
 * smartboyhw thinks none is better
<zequence> It seems weird, how the hiearchy works
<scott-work> zequence: we could place all under ~ubuntustudio i suppose
<zequence> scott-work: Yea
<scott-work> anyone of a sub team then would also be only part of ubuntustudio
<zequence> That sounds sound to me
 * smartboyhw thinks it is great
<scott-work> we will need to get janne involved most likely. i believe he is owner of ~ubuntustudio. but i also seem to recall a team or project that is owned by luis as well
<smartboyhw> scott-work, I thought you are now the owner...
<scott-work> oh, maybe i am. i can check those out in a bit
 * smartboyhw hates the Ubuntu Forums Ops for playing jokes on the Ubuntu Studio Section on the Forums
<scott-work> smartboyhw: what did they do?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: oh, would you also like to write something up for the website (then get posted to social) about the changes in our testing for this cycle
<smartboyhw> scott-work, OK. But how do I post it to social websites eh!?
<smartboyhw> The jokes: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1412430/  (A very bad joke)
<smartboyhw> zequence, where is that "staging" area BTW? (I want to have a look
<scott-work> me or kaj can get it on to g+ and facebook
<smartboyhw> scott-work, so I can't and so social websites aren't my job:P
<scott-work> i'll probably then post it to my blog, facebook, g+, twitter, identi.ca
 * smartboyhw really needs to get membership (in January) to post more about QA)
<scott-work> not necessarily, i think that only g+ has a multi-manager feature at this point
<scott-work> and kaj has only _just_ been set up on there
<scott-work> i need to look at the facebook page and see what can be posted there as well
<smartboyhw> Hmm BTW scott-work I think for the posts we can add more "Categories"
<scott-work> and to be honest, if the plugin is installed onto the website, having multiple managers of multiple social networks is moot
<smartboyhw> scott-work, when is the plugin going in!?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: absolutely, remember, we really haven't used the website (as we probably should have been) so many things are not developed at all
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i don't know. although kaj has made an RT ticket, we really have no control past that point other than poking people from time to time
<scott-work> does anyone know who 'Gunnar Hjalmarsson' is and why he is proposed the merge?
<scott-work> is this something ubuntu vanilla is doing?
<zequence> scott-work: ubuntustudio.mousike.me
<smartboyhw> scott-work, should be. He subscribed the Ubuntu Sponsors Team for that
<zequence> scott-work: No theme loaded yet, so it's just standard WP
<zequence> scott-work: You're the owner of ~ubuntustudio
<zequence> astraljava changed that for us a while back
<zequence> smartboyhw: We're waiting for a plugin to be installed on WP, allowing us to post to multiple sites at once
 * smartboyhw goes to rt.ubuntu.com
<smartboyhw> zequence, let me leave a reply on the staging area:P
<zequence> scott-work: We should be able to post to facebook from WP later. So, it's only G+ out of the social sites that doesn't have this possibility, because of their hidden API
<zequence> smartboyhw: That will be more of a playground area. We'll have the opportunity to do changes to the theme, and see the results right away
<smartboyhw> zequence, for the first thing: Can't you just install the theme made by knome!?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I will let knome handle that. He has full access to the server. 
<smartboyhw> zequence,ooh
<smartboyhw> knome is our web mastermind...:D
<astraljava> Did we have a amd64+mac version of our image already? Someone asking on mailing list.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, NO
<astraljava> Right, thought as much.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, I don't think we have people to support and test these images anyway
<astraljava> True, I could only test the live part of it.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, what do you mean!?
<astraljava> I have (thus far) access to my work MBP, but I won't be resizing the hard drive, nor definitely be doing the whole-disk installations.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, ouch OK
<astraljava> Ahh... man. Different things altogether.
 * astraljava feels so silly.
<smartboyhw> !?
<astraljava> I should try to handle 37.4 matters at once.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, list them:P
<astraljava> It was about Windows8 machines, not Macs.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, uh hum alright
<smartboyhw> BTW guys had a question since that guy asked about Ubuntu Studio and Windows 8: Is it possible that we get a linux-lowlatency-signed image?
<zequence> I think that will be totally up to the kernel guys
<zequence> Don't know yet how that works at all
<astraljava> Talk on the support phone, answer support emails, write follow-up questions to internal support requests, code one customer project, code another customer project, code yet another customer project, code internal dev project, drink coffee, eat chocolate, solve support issues on Ubuntu Studio, read imgur, think of Grumpy Cat jokes...
<astraljava> Damn, this is exhausting.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, LOL
<zequence> Heard they are still waiting for Microsoft to respond to some stupid request from the Linux Foundation about that
<smartboyhw> holiday for me for the coming two days
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh is it?
<astraljava> zequence: Right, thanks.
<zequence> http://blog.hansenpartnership.com/adventures-in-microsoft-uefi-signing/
<zequence> "However, thatâs the status: Weâre still waiting for Microsoft to give the Linux Foundation a validly signed pre-bootloader.  When that happens, it will get uploaded to the Linux Foundation website for all to use"
<zequence> I guess that will be the same for all kernels
<smartboyhw> zequence, wow
<astraljava> I wouldn't hold my breath either.
 * smartboyhw is starting an ambitious project to try to translate most open source projects into the specific Chinese (Hong Kong) language.
<smartboyhw> My goal for 13.04 and 13.10:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: Use google translate :P
<smartboyhw> zequence, no no no:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, if that is we don't even need translators
<zequence> That does sound a little ambitious, yes. How much text is that, and how many work hours?
<smartboyhw> zequence, probably 1 million strings and 1000 work hours (one package at a time)
<zequence> If you can finish a 10th of that, I'll be impressed
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<smartboyhw> True
<zequence> And I'm not being sarcastic, when I say that
<smartboyhw> zequence, yes you are not
<zequence> astraljava: Drinking coffee, eating chocolate and reading imgur are important efficiency heightening activities!
<smartboyhw> Anyone got a Nexus 7 to play with the core images?
 * smartboyhw really hopes to have one
<zequence> I'm thinking of getting a Nokia N9
<zequence> Someone had one at UDS, and showed me a setting which allowed you to enable a linux repo, I think it was a Debian one
<astraljava> zequence: Absolutely! I brought a coffee mug here at work, in April. Loosely translated, it says:"Drink coffee, so you can do stupid things more efficiently!" When my boss saw it, she pondered whether we have company policies prohibiting the use of silly coffee mugs.
<smartboyhw> zequence, no Nokia is rubbish (after 2010)
<astraljava> zequence: When I was developing sw for MeeGo, I really wanted to get the N9, because the dev model, N950 was one of the best phones I've ever laid my hands on. But then sadly they stripped the physical qwerty, and I mourned.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Not the N9. I wouldn't have been interested in it otherwise, but since it can install GNU/Linux software directly, it's quite a machine actually
<zequence> smartboyhw: The guy was playing quake3 on it
<smartboyhw> Oh
<zequence> astraljava: The performance is bad?
 * smartboyhw has the cheapest smartphone from Samsung
<zequence> smartboyhw: Nokia wouldn't have released the N9, had they not had a contract with Intel where they were required to do so. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh?
<zequence> This is since they are now collaborating with Microsoft, and has shut the door to anything Linux
<zequence> The former Linux people have moved on. There are a couple of other projects going on, in the wake of that. Jolla, for instance
<zequence> You'll probably be seeing Jolla in China next year
<zequence> I was intending to get a Samsung SIII, but when I saw the N9, the geek inside me talked me out of it
<astraljava> zequence: No, I just really would love to have a physical qwerty.
<astraljava> S3 is awesome, though! Even without the qwerty.
<zequence> smartboyhw: It would be a terrible work situation, if no silly coffee cups were allowed. Think how stupid it would look when everyone were instead required to wear silly hats
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<astraljava> zequence: Yes, but we also (at least used to) have a "Support Duty Mask". It has eyes that bleed. Amongst other things. It never fails to get the appropriate reaction on any customer visitors we might have.
<astraljava> But I concur, it's better with the silly mugs.
<zequence> Might be terribly difficult to find a N9 though
<zequence> It seems to be out in all the stores
<zequence> Nah, it's available
<zequence> About 200 â¬. Fair price
<astraljava> Jolla, a new start-up, bought the licenses for N950, and are developing a new phone line on top of that heritage. They recently came out with a demo of the ecosystem. But I have no idea when we'll be able to see the first actual products.
<zequence> astraljava: Seems like there's a chance a product may be out next year, but they will be starting out in China, from what I understand
<astraljava> Right'o.
 * smartboyhw realizes that installing WordPress is quite easy
<zequence> smartboyhw: Same thing with most web applications
<zequence> This is an automatic install, on a web hotel, so it's even easier. I just push a button
<smartboyhw> zequence, I have even managed to get the Studio theme on it
<smartboyhw> However I
<smartboyhw> am getting something like     arning: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() in /home/a6997917/public_html/wp-content/themes/ubuntustudio-wp/tabs.php on line 26
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<smartboyhw> arning: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() in /home/a6997917/public_html/wp-content/themes/ubuntustudio-wp/tabs.php on line 26
<smartboyhw> Hmm
 * smartboyhw apologizes for copying the wrong things
<smartboyhw> Go to smartboyhw.tk
<zequence> Check what it says on the line 26 in /home/a6997917/public_html/wp-content/themes/ubuntustudio-wp/tabs.php
<zequence> there's a foreach() function there, that is not working for some reason
<zequence> Perhaps something is missing?
<smartboyhw> zequence, probably\
 * smartboyhw will go and install every plugin that is available in the main website
<smartboyhw> zequence, got rid of that error now go to smartboyhw.tk again:D
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW what's your old account doing here joining the main team?:P https://launchpad.net/~ailo
<micahg> smartboyhw: not advised, each plugin is a potential additional security hole
<scott-work> micahg: i believe he is talking about installing it on a non-canonical staging area setup by kaj
<scott-work> micahg: btw, how are you doing these days? i haven't spoken to you in a while
<micahg> scott-work: really busy, trying to stay afloat
<smartboyhw> scott-work, that is an INDEPENDENT staging area. :P
<smartboyhw> micahg, don't worry it aren't in the main sites:P
<smartboyhw> For myself only, I will use other themes soon
<zequence> smartboyhw: ~ailo is a third account, which I use for testing stuff, when I need to not be a member of some groups
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh
<smartboyhw> zequence, so many accounts;P
<zequence> I only have two now, which is the same as before I created the new one
<zequence> scott-work: So, we should probably decide a time when to talk about what we would like to try to change for the website
<scott-work> webchat dropped connection. this is the last thing i saw:
<scott-work> <zequence> scott-work: So, we should probably decide a time when to talk about what we would like to try to change for the website
<scott-work> zequence: we can talk about it now if you would like. i can only think of a small selection of changes at this point.
<zequence> scott-work: I think what we want is a good looking front, with a news feed. I'm thinking the optimal solution aught to be a page showing a short intro to Ubuntu Studio, under that a header saying "Latest News", and then a news feed with headers and short descriptions
<scott-work> does this mean removing the slide show portion?
<zequence> No
<zequence> We keep that as is. Just make the content under it be a bit more informative than now
<zequence> As for the news feed, I could imagine just showing one article is enough, if there's a link to "news" as well
<scott-work> i wonder if the short intro to ubuntu studio could be in the right column
<zequence> The right column is more auxiliary, isn't it? Like a toolbox
<zequence> Actually, it's quite easy to add hmtl content to it
<scott-work> i'm not sure to be honest, i was just thinking about ways to minimize how much vertical space we use by stacking things on top of each other
<zequence> Like embedded youtube
<zequence> It would be one page size
<scott-work> zequence: i say, if you have a vision implement it, and then we can iterate if we need to from that point
<scott-work> err "if you have a vision *then* implement it,"
<zequence> Yea. We could actually try different versions
<zequence> I'll talk with knome
<zequence> I do some php myself, so I will probably want to get under the hood a bit with this one
<zequence> scott-work: Do we have a slogan?
<zequence> I think if we had a slogan that clearly says what Ubuntu Studio is, it would be enough as informational text on the front page
<zequence> The Artistic Operative System. Somethine like that
<zequence> Well, something better than that
<zequence> Operative System for Multimedia Content Creation. A bit technical, but might work. Especially with some nice font
<zequence> We could add something like that. A slogan, or a descriptive text beneath the logo
<zequence> It would be nice if it had some energy, but still was very correct
<zequence> Ah, what does the plymoth theme say? OS for creative human beings?
<zequence> scott-work: Something like this https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12809728/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Frontpage.png
<scott-work> "create stuff...using ubuntu studio" :P
<scott-work> sorry, been busy with emergencies
<holstein> "get it together!"
<scott-work> "right now....over me"
<scott-work> errr.....
<scott-work> "riiiiiiight now.....over me"
<scott-work> zequence: it's funny you ask this because last night i found a bunch of images i had made previously and this is one: http://imagebin.org/238259
<zequence> scott-work: I like it. Linux is not the most accurate term, but from a laymans perspective, it makes things very clear
<zequence> ..and it has energy
<scott-work> sorry, more "fires" at work. i'm glad you like the concept, i was quite happy with the thought and how it turned out. not the best, but certainly pleasing. to me at least
<zequence> scott-work: I think we should go with it. We could add it to the current logo, but also make a new one.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-12-06
<ttoine> hello
<zequence> ttoine: Hello
<ttoine> zequence, I do my membership this evening !
<ttoine> I hope it will work !
<zequence> ttoine: Oh? I'll make sure to be around
<ttoine> zequence, thanks
<zequence> Finlands independence today
<zequence> And my birthday
<ttoine> today ?
<zequence> Finland 95, me, 35
<ttoine> happy birthday !
<zequence> Sorry, Finlands Independence Day. When I turn 40, Finland turns 100. Woo, there will be a party then
<ttoine> zequence, ;-)
<smartboyhw> ttoine, 12:00 UTC or 22:00 UTC????
<ttoine> smartboyhw, 22:00 UTC
<smartboyhw> ttoine, hmm I can't watch then:(
<ttoine> smartboyhw, no problem
<holstein> its ailo's birthday
<zequence> holstein: Yea, and Finlands too.
<smartboyhw> holstein, oh is it?
<smartboyhw> Congrats zequence 
<zequence> Finland is becoming an old hag. She's 95
 * smartboyhw wonders where is scott-work; he should be here congrating zequence 
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<smartboyhw> Our school is 161
<zequence> Hope it stays together ;)
<smartboyhw> :)
<holstein> my bass is older than Finland...
<smartboyhw> holstein, LOL
<holstein> sounds like the punchline to some awful musician joke.. "i got basses older than Finland"
<holstein> i played with a guitar player years ago and he said "ive got ties older than you"...
<zequence> lol
<smartboyhw> :P
<holstein> i thought that was a great line
<holstein> if his guitar playing were on par with his sense of humour, we'd probably still be working together...
<zequence> It brings many associations
<zequence> When I turn 40, Finland turns 100. That'll be the biggest party I ever organize
<holstein> Finland is one of those places like Australia.. on my short list of places i think i would really like to spend some time
<smartboyhw> zequence, :D:O
<zequence> holstein: Why Finland? There's only one city, and the rest is just forest. If you come in the wrong half of the year, all you see is snow and ice
<holstein> lol
<zequence> The food isn't exactly great, and the people not particularly friendly
<holstein> i just think id like it.. from what ive seen/read/heard
<zequence> They have loads of festivals during summer
<zequence> Weird festivals. Lot's of humor
<zequence> I'd like to visit New York sometime. Maybe live there for a while
<holstein> well... i think i need to, but i dont like it at all
<zequence> smartboyhw: Where in HK do you live?
<holstein> im not a big city guy though...
<smartboyhw> zequence, somewhere near Central
<smartboyhw> Central = the commercial centre
<smartboyhw> Hmm Kubuntu and Edubuntu Alpha 1 soon coming
<zequence> holstein: Not me typically either, but the impression I get is the culture there is something worth experiencing
<smartboyhw> I give you a challenge: Try to find your name in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseNotes/Credits/BugReporters
<smartboyhw> :P
<smartboyhw> 14373 people
 * smartboyhw finds that that doesn't include zequence 
<smartboyhw> What!?!?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Guess I didn't report any
<holstein> zequence: totally somewhere for the bucket list
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<smartboyhw> I found myself
<holstein> i though london as a little "crazier" than NYC though
<smartboyhw> Some interesting facts
<holstein> was a little*
<smartboyhw> 241 Ubuntu Developers, 41 Juju Charm Writers, 208 testers, 12 release team members, 22 contributors to Desktop User Guide, 5 to Server Guide, 26 to Release Notes, over 16 thousand translators, 223 bug analysts and 14373 bug reporters made Ubuntu 12.10 possible
<zequence> holstein: If you do come around here, do visit Gothenburg, Sweden, where I live. Not saying just cause I live here, but it's one of the nicer cities/towns in this part of Europe
<holstein> zequence: if i do, i'll come buy you a beer :)
<zequence> holstein: I'll buy you one!
<zequence> I need to visit Berlin too sometime
<holstein> zequence: we'll take turns 8D
<zequence> holstein: Might continue for a long time
<holstein> works for me...
<zequence> smartboyhw: Maybe I told you this before, but when I visited HK, I lived in a flat on a rooftop. It was a bit north from the central. Lantau Island seems like a nice place to live, especially if you build a house there, but I assume it's not cheap to do that
<smartboyhw> zequence, buying a small flat isn't cheap
<zequence> My favorite time in HK was when I visited the Buddhist monastary at the top of Lantau Island. Big buddha statue they have there
<smartboyhw> The flat that I live in now (my dad bought it of course) which is 920 square feet costs him 9.2 million
<smartboyhw> zequence, good
<zequence> yueez :P
<smartboyhw> :P
<zequence> http://richardpjohn.com/fr_blog?feature=3313756&postid=3109323
<ttoine> less than 5 hours before the membership board !
<ttoine> zequence, nice to read that from a pro !
<ttoine> if some of you can be there for my membership in #ubuntu-meeting...
<holstein> ttoine: are you ready?
<zequence> ttoine: I'll be following the meeting
<ttoine> I am ready
<ttoine> holstein, if you want you can come too in "ubuntu-meeting
<ttoine> zequence, thanks
<holstein> im there :)
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<ttoine> it is quite fast, actually
<zequence> Yea, much faster than when I was on
<ttoine> after danielmato, me...
<holstein> here you go!
<ttoine> holstein, zequence , seems not to be so easy...
<holstein> ttoine: we can talk about ways to improve your contributions. publically
<holstein> if you dont get it this time...
<holstein> ttoine: for me, this process does raise some good points and questions
<ttoine> ...
<holstein> i need to run to work.. but i'd like much to help you get on track for when you re apply
<micahg> holstein: I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have :)
<zequence> ttoine: I think if you keep being active for this cycle, like you have, you should have no problems getting membership when 13.04 is released
<zequence> ttoine: There's no hurry after all
<holstein> micahg: well.. i mean questions like "when the current leader joined, the team dispersed"
<micahg> what zequence said is definitely true
<holstein> but... thats convo for another time.. i gotta run.. and i think you'll be able to document your contributions
<micahg> (about the membership, not about the hurry)
<holstein> just a steady cycle of something in a wiki... more of what you are doing ttoine 
<ttoine> zequence, I agree
<ttoine> micahg, yes it is true. I just think that it would have helped me with the PR task, actually
<micahg> hrm, Launchpad no longer shows who created stuff
<micahg> ttoine: I think the team membership since 2007 should help you with that
<ttoine> micahg, I think that it is because the guy is not in Ubuntu Studio anymore
<ttoine> micahg, the matter is that since 2007, it is difficult to see what I have done
<micahg> ttoine: right, but as a PR person, idk if that matters as much, for Ubuntu membership it did
<ttoine> it was Cory who created the team in Launchpad, I guess
<ttoine> micahg, idk ?
<micahg> I don't know
<ttoine> micahg, for example, it will be harder to get the twitter account for me without being a member
<ttoine> It will need that somebody else do that stuff
<micahg> ttoine: why?  you're a member of Ubuntu Studio
<micahg> you're not going for an Ubuntu account, but a Studio one
<micahg> you have the Studio membership...they might want an ACK from ScottL or something...but I don't see it as being an issue
<ttoine> ok
<micahg> ttoine: I definitely encourage you to go for the membership later, but I don't think it'll hinder what you hope to accomplish
<micahg> is there a Studio domain?
<ttoine> micahg, ok
<ttoine> micahg, yes, we have ubuntustudio.org
<micahg> so, maybe a mail account on that domain would be appropriate for a PR for Studio :)
<ttoine> micahg, I don't know if it is possible
<ttoine> micahg, but to be clear, I don't want to be a member for an email address. I want to become a member because since all those years, Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio are an important part of my life
<micahg> ttoine: it should be...kubuntu has it, idk what hoops need to be jumped through for it though
<ttoine> but it is clear that an ubuntustudio.org email address is the key to claim the twitter account
<micahg> ttoine: I agree
<ttoine> astraljava could write a testimonial, but I didn't see him active for monthes
<ttoine> micahg, I will ask scott about that email point. zequence, do you know if this is possible ? maybe knome could know ?
<zequence> micahg: ttoine has full access to make posts on the website, and will have full access to all channels that we will be using
<micahg> zequence: I said nothing to the contrary :)
<ttoine> I think that zequence noticed that it will be easy to find contributions outside of launchpad and irc
<ttoine> anyway, zequence and holstein, thanks a lot for your support !
<zequence> Ah, no. I just misunderstood what you were talking about just now
<zequence> ttoine: np. Keep up the good work.
<ttoine> I will try to do my best
<ttoine> zequence, after all, we now have a good team. It has not always been like that in the past
<ttoine> Can you imagine that I am for creating a kind of PR team and a community since the early beginning ?
<zequence> ttoine: I like the team as well, and I hope we can keep expanding it by delegating responsibilities to more people. 
<zequence> We really need more people too :P
<ttoine> zequence, it will come. At first, we need a community of users. and through the users, we will find developpers.
<ttoine> think about all the developpers who worked on 64Studio, AVLinux, and so on... 
<zequence> Yea. And communication will be very important
<ttoine> We have to show that Ubuntu Studio is alive, not like all those old unmaintained projects
<zequence> Yep
<ttoine> then packagers, developpers, etc. will come before we can notice it
<zequence> If we have a decent organization, we could make sure each release is bug free, and performs really well
<zequence> Right now, it's not the case at all, I think
<ttoine> the aim should be to become the reference distribution for companies like Harrison, Lighworks, etc.
<zequence> With a good organization, we can have many people working independantly, testing, reporting bugs, fixing bugs. making adjustments to settings, choosing the right apps, etc
<ttoine> zequence, you didn't see the first rt kernel... and the early ubuntu studio releases
<micahg> maybe one day get corporate sponsorship/paid developers :)
<ttoine> from canonical, or from other companies interested with the project.
<micahg> similar to Blue Systems/Kubuntu
<ttoine> But for me, I don"t hope anything : the jobs in floss is always for programmers...
<zequence> ttoine: I've been using Ubuntu Studio off and off since 8.04
<zequence> ttoine: It was a good distro (can't remember exactly which one I liked)
<micahg> ttoine: actually, there's quite a bit more roles depending on the size/budget of the FLOSS project
<ttoine> zequence, one of the most used version in production is still 10.04 LTS or something like that
<ttoine> micahg, on very important projects, yes. But look at canonical, even community managers are programmers...
<micahg> ttoine: there's still plenty more
<ttoine> micahg, I saw last month a job like "sales representatives france"
<ttoine> it is not really my job
<micahg> there's sales, PR, support, dev
<zequence> 9.10 was my favorie, since I was also using Puredyne, which was based on Ubuntu 9.10. They were hacking on their own rt kernel, but decided to use the on in the main repo. There might have been some problems with desktop/graphic drivers. Don't remember. There's always something.
<ttoine> zequence, yes, there is always something. The work done to get "official" mainteners for the kernel will help a lot
<ttoine> but look at Ubuntu, there less and less something, but there is still something at every release
<zequence> UKT are really busy, but things are moving along. We should have control of maintenance at least before 13.04 is out
<zequence> Yea, recent Ubuntu's are starting to feel very good. It still feels like it's "under development" though, for each release. 
<zequence> I installed Ubuntu 12.04 today, on a friends machine, to show him ubuntu for the first time. We used wubi. The first app he wanted to use was Skype. Of course, installing with wubi for somer reason left out the partner and the extra archives
<zequence> Not hard for me to straighten out, but for him, that would have been impossible
<zequence> It was not just a matter of enabling the archives. I needed to add the lines to the sources.list file
<zequence> And since I don't use Software Center a lot, I haven't learned how well it works. I tried searching for Skype, after enabling the partners archive, and updating apt. Then, reopening Software Center. No Skype. I might have missed something, but that kind of thing really screws with the idea that Ubuntu is easy
<ttoine> yes
<micahg> hrm, might have been missing app-install-data-partner
<micahg> zequence: did you file a bug for WUBI?
<zequence> micahg: Yep
<ttoine> it is the same with most of workshop about producing multimedia with Linux. It is very true when the showman is using fedora + planetccrma
<ttoine> people go out thinking it is not for them and they will keep their mac / win
<ttoine> As soon than I can get some better hardware, I will try to see how I can do some howto videos
<ttoine> hum, 1am soon here
<ttoine> have a good night
<zequence> ttoine: You too. Yea, 1am here too
<zequence> Time to embrace the darkness in horizontal mode
<micahg> is that what shutdown -h is for? :)
<ttoine> I  can sleep a bit tomorrow morning, but work in the afternoon
<ttoine> zequence, still working on my next webserver...
<ttoine> micahg, nice geek command line...
<ttoine> I will have to take care that my wife don't try that on me ;-)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-12-07
<smartboyhw> ttoine, did you get your membership?
<smartboyhw> What the....Why they didn't approve it!?\
<micahg> smartboyhw: it was made very clear in the meeting why it wasn't approved
<holstein> yeah.. not a big deal... next time should be no problem
<holstein> smartboyhw: YO
<smartboyhw> holstein, YO
 * smartboyhw is trying to see whether linux-rt 3 6.9-rt21 works on quantal
<holstein> smartboyhw: nice... let us know
<smartboyhw> holstein, :D compiled the source already
<holstein> i have a PPA from the xubuntu team for some dual head stuff i want to check out on my 12.10 test partition soon
<smartboyhw> Good morning len-dt BTW:P
<Len-nb> GM how are you?
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, fine:D
 * smartboyhw is still uploading the 3.6.9-rt21 kernel to his website
<Len-nb> The 3.* series kernels seem to be poorer for low latency work. Audio is not the only use for RT and some of the other uses are throughput centric.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, I do agree
<Len-nb> In fact it may not be the kernel itself, but some of the modules.
<smartboyhw> Trying to compare the diffs
<smartboyhw> zequence, you are correct. There is a script specialized to automate the update process. It is in the git branch's ./debian.lowlatency/etc/update-from-master file.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm aware of the script, yes
<smartboyhw> Ouch
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW how are ya today?
<zequence> smartboyhw: A bit tired. Was up late last night. How are you?
<smartboyhw> zequence, good
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW you got that "Ubuntu Studio Community" invitation?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yeah. Seems like Google did an update to their services. Also, Youtube has changed
<smartboyhw> zequence, Google big change:D
<ttoine> hello
<smartboyhw> Hi ttoine 
<ttoine> zequence, is there a problem with the raringblueprintscategories page ?
<zequence> ttoine: Nope. I split the blueprints into two. One for the release, and one for non-release(permanent)
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PermanentBlueprintOverview
<ttoine> zequence, I would like to add a workitem in PR
<zequence> Things like PR, Documentation. Things that are not tested on a ISO, are not included in the approved blueprints for Ubuntu Raring
<ttoine> [ubuntustudio-dev]  create @ubuntustudio.org email adresse for the PR team. It is needed at least to catch the Twitter account.
<ttoine> but I can't, maybe I don't do it the right way
<ttoine> zequence, ok
<zequence> ttoine: What do you think? Should we only have one account, like "official@ubuntustudio.org", or individual accounts?
<zequence> We could have both of course
<zequence> An official account could then be redirected to other email adresses, if we only use one
<zequence> ttoine: I don't understand about the twitter account though. Catch what?
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work 
<smartboyhw> scott-work, zequence and ttoine are talking about setting up e-mail accounts
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw , good morning
<scott-work> smartboyhw: what is the purpose of said e-mail accounts?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, they want to use it to catch the Twitter account
<smartboyhw> scott-work, BTW the Release Team says that it is the team we should start doing weekly reports to ubuntu-release@lists.ubuntu.com, so I will continue to send like before 12.10 released, right?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: absolutely (re: reports), i cannot tell you how big of a relief it is to me for you to do those reports :)
<scott-work> smartboyhw: (re: email account and twitter) ahhhhhh, yes. i thought ttoine was contacting elizabeth to talk about ubuntustudio getting an official email account (ala xubuntu did) for twitter, etc
<scott-work> i wonder if we should hear back from ttoine before we move forward on creating a twitter account
<smartboyhw> scott-work, /me agrees
<ttoine> zequence, an email adress @ubuntustudio.org is needed to fill the request to get the twitter account
<smartboyhw> ttoine, have you asked pleia2 yet on this?
<scott-work> ttoine: did you get a chance to talk to pleia2 (aka elizbath) about how to do this?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, LOL
<smartboyhw> 1 second delay:P
<ttoine> smartboyhw, yes, I asked her
 * smartboyhw is finding it difficult to download the 3.6.9-rt21 kernel he compiled to a Studio 12.10 VM
<ttoine> yesterday evening I tried to become a member
<smartboyhw> ttoine, and failed due to not sustained contributions
<smartboyhw> right?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, yes, that's the point. actually, if I asked for membership in 2007, I may have it...
<ttoine> the board said that it is not possible at the moment.
<smartboyhw> ttoine, that's five years late:P
<scott-work> ttoine: does being a member affect getting the @ubuntustudio.org email account?
<smartboyhw> I might even possibly get membership earlier than you then ttoine 
<ttoine> smartboyhw, yes, I know... but I was thinking that being a member was more like an award. And it is now that it would be usefull that I can't be member ;-)
<smartboyhw> ttoine, uh!?
<ttoine> scott-work, that's the point i would like to chat with you
<ttoine> is it possible for the PR team to have ubuntustudio.org email ?
<ttoine> or not at all ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, yes of course....
<smartboyhw> scott-work permitted you on that
<smartboyhw> am I wrong!?
<ttoine> I don't know
<ttoine> and I don't even know how to have such an email
<smartboyhw> ttoine, what did pleia2 tell you about the email account?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, nothing. she give me the email address of a guy working at twitter
<ttoine> this guy helped her to get the twitter account
<scott-work> ttoine: i do not understand what you are asking with regards to the pr team and the email account. i should note that you are on the pr team, however.
<ttoine> and he told me that it would be easier with an ubuntu or ubuntustudio email
<ttoine> scott-work, we chat yesterday evening with zequence and micahg 
<ttoine> micahg told that xubuntu provide some xubuntu.org email address to some of the team member
<ttoine> and that to get the email address, an ubuntustudio.org would be usefull
<smartboyhw> ttoine, the problem is that we don't know how to set it up right?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, that is why I ask scott-work about that, maybe he would know
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I think we need to find the Canonical IS, because normally we should find the hosting provider for our ubuntustudio.org website, and so that means we need to find IS
<ttoine> smartboyhw, what is the best way to contact them ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I think it means to open a ticket in rt.ubuntu.com
 * smartboyhw thinks Canonical IS will surely kill us for having so many tickets in rt:P
<scott-work> oh, i don't know how to set up that email account. i suspect that this will mean contacting the controlling canonical group via an RT ticket
<smartboyhw> ttoine, you file one then:P
<scott-work> heh, just read what smartboyhw typed
<ttoine> scott-work, may I do that ? or it is up to you ?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, LOL
<scott-work> ttoine: you can certainly do it :)
<smartboyhw> But then we need to decide also what email accounts we need
<smartboyhw> And tell them to set it up all at once;P
<ttoine> scott-work, so before opening a ticket, it would be usefull to think who whould need a ubunstudio.org email
<ttoine> so we can open only one ticket for everyone
<ttoine> smartboyhw, you where faster than me
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I am fast on typing:P
<smartboyhw> (at least faster than balloons on QA Team)
<ttoine> scott-work, smartboyhw, can one of you tell me how I can add a work item on a launchpad blueprint ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, um like this
<smartboyhw> [ttoine] the message: TODO/INPROGRESS/BLOCKED/DONE
 * smartboyhw finds the new dependency table in topic-flavor-ubuntustudio more messier than ever:(
<smartboyhw> God's sake!!!!
 * scott-work is working backwards up the backscroll ;)
<scott-work> smartboyhw: yes, i think we had too many "finely focused" blueprints and the dependencies are slightly wacky
<smartboyhw> scott-work, let us tell zequence :P
<scott-work> i think he and i already talked about it in a loosely manner (i.e. it was a secondary observation in regards to a different topic of discussion)
<smartboyhw> ttoine, well actually 1. PR team is almost = Website Team and 2. That will mean 7 accounts plus a official@ubuntustudio.org accounts or something
<ttoine> smartboyhw, thanks.
<scott-work> ttoine: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto
<smartboyhw> scott-work, :D
<scott-work> this is a really good (and official!) explanation of the work items
<smartboyhw> ttoine, um I think not only the PR guys should get one account. For example, len-dt is not on website or PR team, but then he should get an account.
<scott-work> ttoine: i presume you have a launchpad account and are logged in though ;)  and you should just click the yellow circle with the black exclamation point
<scott-work> smartboyhw: ttoine: i hadn't really considered if we are getting multiple @ubuntustudio.org accounts. my original thought was that there would be one that was shared. hmmmm, this requires reconsideration obviously on my part.
<ttoine> scott-work, I can undserstand this point of view
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yeah I didn't think about that too
<ttoine> it is quite new ;-)
<ttoine> scott-work, but it will be great, if the aim is still to create a team
<smartboyhw> ttoine, aren't we originally supposed to create a team?:P
<smartboyhw> And we created the PR team (aka website team)
<scott-work> ttoine:  instead of creating another team, we decided to use the -website team, especially since the -website team already has access to the website
<ttoine> smartboyhw, of course, PR and Website team are just a base. thats' why I think we should chat about who should have an email account
<scott-work> although i still need to fix the hierarchy of the teams so that being part of the -website team doesn't grant access to the code :P
<smartboyhw> ttoine, um that will cause people arguing about it:P
<smartboyhw> scott-work, that doesn
<smartboyhw> 't take you 5 minutes:P
<ttoine> scott-work, and if we have only one "official@ubuntustudio.org" address, how can we manage to share it ?
<zequence> ttoine: It can be redirected
<zequence> Or, what's the word?
<zequence> as was said, we only need to create a rt ticket for the emails
<smartboyhw> zequence, FORWARD:P
<zequence> I'm assuming they have simple tools for creating email accouns, so this should not be a big problem. Would be good if we first decided how many accounts, and then sent one ticket only
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yea, thanks
<ttoine> zequence, that's why we were talking about
<zequence> ttoine: I don't understand why it would be easier to have a @ubuntu account or @ubuntustudio in order to create a twitter account
<zequence> ttoine: Yes, I know. That is why I was asking you about this earlier
<zequence> Why do we need a @ubuntustudio.org email account?
<zequence> Other than it looks fancy
<ttoine> zequence, actually, I didn't know that is was possible to create ubuntustudio.org emails. but according to the contact of plei2, and ubuntustudio.org email would be better
<zequence> ttoine: Better for what?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I think it was that if we don't set that up Twitter will probably assume we are not an organization and may not permit us to set up the Twitter account
<ttoine> zequence, the other purpose is if we contact other companies than twitter. For example, to get sponsorship.
<smartboyhw> ttoine, why we need sponsorship!?
<scott-work> the xubuntu's twitter account is pretty tight looking: https://twitter.com/Xubuntu
<ttoine> zequence, to get the @ubuntustudio twitter account. 
<ttoine> it already registered by someone we don't know and don't answer.
<smartboyhw> ttoine, oh is it?
<zequence> ttoine: Ok, I see.
<ttoine> smartboyhw, it is. and there is a huge form to fill
<zequence> So, how about we ask to get email accounts for all current active members on the Ubuntu Studio team?
<smartboyhw> Nkunzimana Herve... Who is that guy?
<smartboyhw> zequence, how to define then?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, hehe, you are really fast
<scott-work> ttoine: zequence: if a @ubuntu or @ubuntustudio account is required, both zequence and i have a @ubuntu.com email account
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I am fast:P
<smartboyhw> 14-year-olds are supposed to be fast:p
<scott-work> ttoine: zequence: so, if we can clear the twitter accounts with an @ubuntu.com email address, do we still _need_ @ubuntustudio.org for other purposes?
<ttoine> scott-work, you can try with your @ubuntu email. but be sure that with a ubuntustudio.org email it will be better
<smartboyhw> If we can try to avoid setting  @ubuntustudio.org email accounts the better
<ttoine> scott-work, I think, yes, that some time it will be usefull. at least to send official emails on mailing lists
<ttoine> it will be more clear if we can have a "official@ubuntustudio.org" or a "team@ubuntustudio.org"
<ttoine> or something like that
<smartboyhw> ttoine, well that might be a good way
<ttoine> an other example :  I often contact companies like Echo, harrison, or developpers of some projects like colord, inkscape, etc. to get some news.
<ttoine> and sometime, using my own email address is not the easy way
<zequence> ttoine: In those cases it's much better to have a personal eamil
<zequence> I mean like ttoine @ubuntustudio.org
 * smartboyhw faints over this email discussion:!
<zequence> But using such an email should probably only be used for official stuff
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep
<smartboyhw> But yet again: How to define official stuff?
<zequence> smartboyhw: The kind that is defined on the PR page
<zequence> As well as what ttoine just mentioned
<smartboyhw> So like, I can't use for example smartboyhw@ubuntustudio.org (if I get one) to post to the Ubuntu QA Mailing list right? 
<smartboyhw> zequence, so only for news
<zequence> When one of us is communicating on behalf of Ubuntu Studio, and not on behalf of ourselves
<ttoine> zequence, of course, only official use
<smartboyhw> My account is going to rust then
<smartboyhw> Only two news per cycle: Beta testing and RC testing:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: At least not use it to post political opinions on diverse mail lists, and that sort of thing
<smartboyhw> zequence, sorry: How to define political opinions? (Sorry on kept asking, I just don't want to do anything wrong:P)
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i think he meant, don't offer _your_ opinion on something with official email, only opinions from the team should be posted with the @ubuntustudio.org account
<smartboyhw> scott-work, OK
<scott-work> okay: let's say smartboyhw, ttoine, zequence, len-dt , and me get "official" email accounts. is that excluding anyone who might have a _real_ need for one?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, holstein needs one
<zequence> holstein too I think
<zequence> astraljava?
 * smartboyhw agrees
<scott-work> i.e. is anyone else possibly going to be making routine or regular posts for any reason that would require the email account (this excludes the website stuff that should also post to social)
<zequence> Probably the PR team, and any leading team member might have use for it, but that covers just about everyone
<smartboyhw> Yeah zequence ttoine scott-work smartboyhw holstein len-dt astraljava 
<smartboyhw> That's the list
<smartboyhw> At least for now
<scott-work> "make it so, number two"
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ?
<scott-work> sorry, was a reference to star trek saying "do it" ;)
<zequence> I'll make a ticket then
<zequence> I'll use the launchpad id's and email adresses for everyone as contact info
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<scott-work> of course, i outed myself as a crappy star trek (the next generation) fan as i messed up the quote. it should have been "make it so, number *one*"
<zequence> :D
<scott-work> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=make%20it%20so%2C%20Number%20One
<ttoine> looks good
<ttoine> bbl
<scott-work> i like it when we discuss items, make a decision (even if it is not _perfect_), and then do it :)
<scott-work> we can always iterate and pivot if necessary
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yay
 * smartboyhw wonders has zequence got a new title: Ubuntu Studio Canonical IS contact:P
<smartboyhw> scott-work, so I will update the whiteboard on who will get accounts....
<smartboyhw> I mean on the PR blueprint
<scott-work> sure
<smartboyhw> scott-work, check your email box
<smartboyhw> Is that correct?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i haven't received anything yet. i'll keep checking, though
<smartboyhw> scott-work, eh? I got it 2 seconds after I changed it:P
<scott-work> oh, sorry. you mean for a blueprint. i have that going to a different folder in gmail. i see it now. checking....
<smartboyhw> scott-work, LOL
<scott-work> looks good. i wonder if we should also have an 'info' or 'contact' email account. not sure that we really need it.
<smartboyhw> scott-work, um let ttoine come back first
<smartboyhw> And we shall discuss it more:P
<zequence> scott-work: I'll add a contact@ubuntustudio.org and ask to have that directed to you then
<smartboyhw> zequence, let me add it to the blueprint whiteboard
<holstein> wow
<smartboyhw> holstein, wow what?:P
<holstein> do we really get ubuntustudio email addys?
<holstein> thats cool
<holstein> i get an ubuntu one, but i dont have it setup properly
<smartboyhw> holstein, don't forget: That is for OFFICIAL purposes:P
<holstein> its awesome!
<holstein> i would like to approach some folks officially.. i think this is a great idea
<smartboyhw> holstein, you are the most excited person around here;P
<smartboyhw> holstein, OFFICIAL for Ubuntu Studio.....
<smartboyhw> Gee we need some explanation
<holstein> smartboyhw: it doesnt take much to get me going
<holstein> i just mean, getting reviews, or articles or whatever.. would be nice to come from an @ubuntustudio addy :)
<smartboyhw> holstein, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1416925/ 
<smartboyhw> The official log of the birth of the emails (/me rolls his eyes)
<scott-work> zequence: that sounds good
<zequence> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=20780
<zequence> I guess everyone got an email about the ticket
<holstein> i did
<zequence> smartboyhw: Why are you wanting to SRU ubuntustudio-default-settings?
<zequence> Ah, the no help bug
<ttoine> just here for 5min
<ttoine> smartboyhw, holstein, scott-work, zequence maybe we should write somewhere simple rules about when to use @ubuntustudio.org emails, or not
<zequence> Every year it's the same thing. It starts to snow. Public transportation is in chaos. What? No one anticipated it would snow this winter too?
<holstein> how about... "ubuntustudio related"
<zequence> ttoine: I guess we could add more stuff to the PR page
<ttoine> zequence, and you are not living in france... when there is 2mm of snow, people just can't drive anymore in big cities... trucks are stopped on highways, etc.
<zequence> ttoine: Everything there applies, I think. But we could add more, like what you said about contacting vendors
<ttoine> zequence, yes, for sure.
<ttoine> I have to go and get my son at school. bbl
<zequence> ttoine: In France you don't change to winter tires, right? Here at least car traffic is not that bad. It's just the trains and trams, and buses to some extent
<zequence> This part of Sweden is just in between the pro snow, and the amateur snow
<zequence> We get a few days of bad weather each year, and there's not enough resources to handle that, since there's no need for most of the year
<holstein> yeah, thats similar to here
<holstein> a little snow knocks everything out
<smartboyhw> zequence, uh len-dt made the change in July but then it has not been fixed. This fixes Bug 1041882 you know:P
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1041882 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio 12.04.1 does not have help" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1041882
<smartboyhw> some rules about when to use the account will be good
<zequence> I'm just on my way to meet a tram, that is delayed, but I can bet it won't be in time for it's announced delay
<zequence> It'll be later then the late it was supposed to be
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll have a look at that.
<zequence> bye for now
<smartboyhw> zequence, bye
<micahg> scott-work: I said Kubuntu, not Xubuntu
<scott-work> micahg: ah
<len-dt> zequence, the settings smartboyhw was talking about are in a branch ( -settings.precise ) because the new settings 12.10 and up would not work with 12.04. (xfce 4.8 - 4.10 differences). The precise package has been built and tested against 12.04 ok. I do have a copy of it around somewhere (the *.deb).
<len-dt> But I think it would normally be rebuilt anyway for release.
 * len-dt is not worried about if he should have a US mail address.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-12-08
<zequence> len-dt: We might as well get email adresses for everyone at this point, since perhaps only one or two would have any doubts about it
<len-dt> zequence, I have nothing against it, just that I am not a PR kind of person and so don't "need" it.
<holstein> zequence: you think A3 adding midi will kill off any of the other midi sequencers?
<holstein> i dont think anyone will stop doing what they are doing. personally
<zequence> holstein: I'm sure some people will start using Ardour3 for both audio and midi, but the way it's now, I don't think everyone will find it full featured and stable enough for their needs
<zequence> Probably depends on how much one uses midi
<holstein> i mean, the little projects.. you think they will just give up?
<zequence> like muse? Don't think so
<len-dt> What little bit of midi I have done holstein, I have preferred to have separate from audio though sync-able. But then I am not really a "synth" person... or maybe I am, perhaps I should say I am not a KB replaces things person.
<holstein> len-dt: im not a synth guy either... i usually route it in ardour like an audio channel and track it live
<zequence> I do some midi sometimes. I actually don't find any of the sequencers adequate
<zequence> As soon as you start doing anything else than straight forward 4/4, you start hitting problems
<len-dt> That is, I enjoy synth as a lead synth sounding instrument.... Played by a KB player in real time :)
<zequence> The worst one was notes not being played
<zequence> It's funny that all of the sequncers were somewhat similar in the bugginess. This was alsa midi
<zequence> That may be the strenght of Ardour, namely jack midi
<len-dt> zequence, Quantitize off and ignore the bars
<zequence> len-dt: I wrote the notes. Didn't play them
<zequence> And I was doing tempo changes, etc
<zequence> Needed click for recording audio too
<len-dt> zequence, that is beyond me... or maybe just feels laborious because I don't even read music well let alone write it.
<zequence> The point is, none of the applications did what they were supposed to do
<zequence> The were supposed to play back all of the notes, not just most of them
<len-dt> Yup. I agree with that, and I would find it more frustrating because I find it hard already.
<zequence> jack midi is a lot more solid, but I'm not sure the midi implementation in Ardour, at least editing it, is either efficient or solid. I would expect playback to be though
<len-dt> The last sequencer I really used was a shareware thing on my Atari years ago. It was really solid time wise and easy to use, though it probably lacked a lot things considered normal now. None of the windows stuff at the time (pre 90s) was stable enough time wise to make music IMO
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-12-09
<len-dt> smartboyhw, You might notice that there are some "ubuntustudio" that are not included in an install.
<len-dt> Normally we don't recommend adding all of them to another install, just the needed work flows.
<len-dt> Just so you know Ubuntu or Xubuntu plus all the ubuntustudio metas does not = Ubuntustudio the way a fresh install would do.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, well then..... we never recommended installing it on a Mac anyway did we? Thx for the info though.
<len-dt> smartboyhw, Even then, I would start with the desktop of choice and add workflows.
<len-dt> I don't know that there is a lowlatency kernel for the mac.
<persia> Which mac?  Recent macs running Ubuntu use the same x86_64 lowlatency as any other recent intel chip.  Most of the same patches probably also apply for powerpc, but there may not be enough users to be worth the maintenance.  OS X kernels are just one flavour, which is reported to be sufficiently low latency when running Logic.
<len-dt> persia, Ya, I was just reviewing a converstion on #ubuntustudio
<persia> Ah, no worries then :)
<len-dt> even with a pc mapping all our metas over something else mostly doesn't do the same as an install
<persia> I think we ought consider that a bug, personally.  It used to work that way.
<len-dt> I think zequence is working on that actually as part of the controls package.
<len-dt> There are some things though that with xfce panels and such where once the user has logged in, the way they are is set and changing the system default won't change them.
<len-dt> Eye candy stuff, backgrounds and themes mostly
<zequence> I think the mac version is not very different from the regular version. Mac has some HW oddities, but CPU is the same
<persia> That probably needs lots of low-level work: I know that for the GNOME stuff, there was a lot of work done to cause the user session to be generated from a mix of system and user data.
<persia> Having just gotten a new mac, I tell you that it's not any different, aside from the hardware selection.
<zequence> I've only tried using mac with linux. Puredyne ran pretty well on a macbook
<persia> The reason for the different downloadable images is because Apple EFI and other folks UEFI are rather incredibly different.
<persia> Someone might get around to writing code that works well by default on both and lets you boot a CD/DVD/USB, but perhaps not very soon.
<len-dt> persia, nice to know. So it is the grub part of things then so a kernel should work?
<persia> Yeah, kernels are the same.  grub is even the same.
<persia> For both mac and non-mac, one can run either grub-pc (BIOS) or grub-efi (EFI/UEFI): the issues all surround the grub-install script.
<zequence> I think the main practical difference in adding all our metas, compared to a fresh studio install, is that the user will not end up in audio group after adding metas, which should not happen anyway. And, many user settings are already done, especially if you use another UI, so the experience using the desktop is not going to be identical
<persia> Needing to be in the audio group is a bug.
<persia> Certainly the desktop experience would be different, but we should be able to provide standards-compliant stuff to give a broadly similar experience.
<len-dt> it keeps the server people happy...
<persia> Mind you, environments like unity that fail to comply with XDG menu spec are probably harder to support.
<persia> Hrm?  How?
<len-dt> There are some people who do not want the user to have rt access by default so if not audio group something else to do the same thing.
<persia> But aren't we supposed to use rtkit for that?
<zequence> Not according to Paul Davis
<zequence> I'm happy with whatever works well, and is the easiest to implement
<zequence> Fromt he user point of view, I mean
<zequence> On Debian, the user is a member of audio group by default
<zequence> Probably not a good thing, but that is how it is
<zequence> pulseaudio is also a member of audio group
<persia> Used to be that way in Ubuntu as well.  Most of the things that required that stopped.
<zequence> I think different people are using the same group for different things
<len-dt> I think slackware is set up that way too
<persia> The last remaining item is limits.conf, which rtkit *should* solve.
 * len-dt remebers it used to be
<persia> but perhaps rtkit isn'T rich enough, or something.  I haven't been following the debate.
<zequence> jackd now installs /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf, which contains the two important lines
<zequence> So, on Debian, that is enough to get realtime privilege. However, there's another problem too
<zequence> firewire devices cannot be accessed without being in audio group
<zequence> udev rules
<persia> That's easy to fix.
<persia> I think pitti is part of udev upstream now, and I know he was one of the folk interested in dropping the audio group requirement.
<zequence> /lib/udev/rules.d/60-ffado.rules
<len-dt> it has to work with all the variants not just debian derivatives. As jack is developed for linux and the author is not likely to be happy doing it more than one way.
<persia> Heh, of course :)  No reason we can't ask for changes upstream.
<zequence> I don't know why one way is better than the other. I don't care. From our point of view, it's a matter of getting Debian/Ubuntu system infrastructure working to our benefit, no matter which solution, as long as it works
<len-dt> I agree, the admin should be able to chose if the user has rt or not. so long as that happens, what does it matter?
<zequence> It's too much for me personally to find out, and work on, so I'm not touching it, at least for now. But, it would be nice if a user could just install jackd, and get realtime privilege
<zequence> Without further setting up
<len-dt> yup
<persia> Hrm.  The ffado udev rules specifying the audio group don't seem to have been uploaded with a bug reference.  I wonder why they are that way.
<len-dt> That doesn't work without jack anyway.
<zequence> jack works without realtime privilege, but the firewire driver won't work without the user being a member of audio group
<persia> zequence: Because of the udev rules, or also because of something else?
<zequence> persia: I guess the udev rules are what makes it possible for users to access the firewire devices, through the group membership. 
<zequence> So, if one is member of audio group, that is enough to run jackd with firewire. To get realtime privilege, you add the two lines to /etc/security/*
<persia> Ah, OK.  I'm guessing leftovers from the every-firewire-device-is-a-hard-drive-and-must-be-restricted-to-root-access philosophy then.
<persia> Now that we have juju, we can probably relax that (but I should go verify the state of juju in our kernels before I say that)
<persia> Ah, found it: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-platform-n-pro-audio-secured
<zequence> We should probably talk with David about that then
<persia> Yep :)
<persia> From the last note at the end, I get the impression that adding the memlock support is feasible (although I don't think it's done, based on my search results).
<persia> If so, that drops the limits.d/audio.conf requirement.
<persia> Indeed, the audio group requirement for the firewire udev rules is about protecting raw1394 access to the underlying device (which could be used to compromise filesystems)
<len-dt> It looks to me like not much has moved. FW development in general seems to be quite slow. Reading about FW to ALSA it seems the idea is dead right now.
<persia> OK, 60-ffado.rules can be changed to not use the audio group: it ought use the ACL mechanism: see 70-acl.rules.
<persia> Mind you, this would only let the currently-logged-in user access the firewire devices.  Does this seem like it might be an issue?
<len-dt> We set up pulse to be user centric so it should be ok.
<persia> Cool.
<zequence> For low latency audio, I don't see much point in multiuser access to the same device
<len-dt> It should be session centric. There are some problems for people who run audio from terminal... IE sight impared.
<len-dt> Setting up a session than the same user can use from more than one VT at the saem time is "interesting"
<persia> heh. indeed :)
<len-dt> The answer that google shows ends up with a pile og dbus tasks running when really only two are needed (maybe one)
<zequence> One audio server at a time though
<len-dt> I did manage to get it to work with just the two though.
<persia> If someone else wants to investigate ffado's need for the audio group before I get to it: apparently Fedora has it working without: presumably one could install in a VM and check the file layout.
<len-dt> Yup one audio server. but a lot of the jack CLI utils use dbus.
<persia> Right: finished confirming: we are entirely using the new firewire stack, so the permissions concerns with the old one are no longer relevant.
<zequence> persia: Are you talking about the change from the old stack to the new stack in the kernel, that happened around 2010?
<zequence> I think Ubuntu moved to the new stack with 10.10
<persia> Um, it's not done yet.
<persia> it's still possible to generate raw1394 drivers (or was last I knew)
<zequence> I'm not that good with terms, but I think raw1394 is the old one, and firewire_something, is the new one
<persia> And the reports I see are that the v4l2 driver is still missing, as well as fixes to libavformat and pwlib (pwlib will likely never happen)
<persia> Right.  *1394 are the old interfaces, and firewire-* are the new ones.
<persia> (well, sbp2 was also one of the old interfaces, but that's just a detail)
<zequence> persia: Yea, so from what I understand, we've been using the new stack since 10.10. The udev rules appeared at that time too
<persia> That said, in Ubuntu, it appears our kernels don't build the old interfaces.
<persia> (which means that we just handle video cameras badly)
<zequence> The udev rules are what makes the current setup work, while for the old one, Ubuntu Studio used to grant access to all firewire devices through video
<zequence> through the video group
<zequence> There were no udev rules preinstalled in the past, as they are now, on all Debian systems (I think)
<persia> Well, a mix of the "audio" and "video" groups, but yeah.
<persia> No, it was more hardcoded, and what wasn't often used hal.
<zequence> So, I don't think Fedora is doing it differently. In fact, i think they are doing it the same way, but one would need to confirm that
<persia> According to the upstream firewire wiki, Fedora is using ACLs for some firewire device types, but I think that's just using 70-acl.rules, from what I see.
<persia> But I'd need to test to find out what is different, and whether the GROUP= entry could be dropped from 60-ffado.rules with that before being confident.
<zequence> Ah, this line: SUBSYSTEM=="firewire", ENV{ID_FFADO}=="1", TAG+="udev-acl"
<zequence> And there are a few others, concerning firewire
<persia> Right.  I believe that is supposed to interact with session management and grant the currently active user access to the device.
<persia> What I don't know is whether we have polkit configured in such a way that it just works.
<persia> Indeed, we do *not* have the necessary polkit rules to automagically do the right thing.
<persia> So, two bugs:
<persia> 1) rtkit needs to grow memlock support
<persia> 2) we need polkit rules to grant access to ffado devices
<persia> Unless someone knows another reason we need an "audio" group?
<zequence> And rtprio?
<zequence> Or, does rtkit handle that differently?
<persia> Seems it's configued in rtkit: http://git.0pointer.de/?p=rtkit.git;a=blob;f=README
<zequence> ever felt like if you didn't have so many problems to solve, you'd have more time to solve problems?
<astraljava> zequence: I can't hear you over the problems I'm trying to solve.
<zequence> astraljava: I'm sorry. Busy strangling my mouse. Get back to you when I have audio
<zequence> It's great when you google for help and find a very helpful wiki page you forgot you wrote only a week ago
<Len-nb> :)
<zequence> Interesting, though 4 years old talk about linux kernel development. Some facts about speed of changes, and who contributes https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=L2SED6sewRw#t=51s
<zequence> I wasn't aware of the fact that amateurs, at least then, where the biggest group of contributors, if you didn't count companies as one single group, but separate per company
<zequence> And, also back then, Canonical were not contributing much at all
<zequence> I think probably it might be worthwhile looking at maintaining a linux-rt 
<zequence> Or.. I don't know. I need to think more about that
<len-dt> zequence, it may be more worthwhile figuring out why new kernels have poor low latency performance.
<len-dt> Maybe there are new additions/settings that could be changed/bypassed in the low latency/rt kernel
<zequence> len-dt: I was looking at the kernel versioning, and realized the odd versions are not maintained for any long periods of time. They reach EOL pretty quickly. Yet, Ubuntu always uses whatever kernel is the latest
<zequence> the rt patch is added to all the even numbers
<zequence> Those which are maintained for a longer time
<zequence> Somehow, I would have thought it would make sense for Ubuntu to only use the even numbers, and that would also have made it practical when maintaining a -rt kernel
<zequence> Of course, one could always keep one, which was not the same version as the stock kernel
<zequence> So, if Ubuntu would go with say, 3.5, the -rt kernel could be 2.4
<zequence> 3.4*
<zequence> I haven't yet tried patching the Ubuntu kernel with the rt patch. I actually only built an rt for the first time today
<zequence> As the -rt patch is meant for the vanilla kernel, there could be problems
<len-dt> zequence, I think there is good reason for using only even numbered kernels
<len-dt> Would it be possible to set US to look at only even numbers in case generic was installed too?
<len-dt> What versions does -server use?
 * len-dt thinks he would prefer even kernels in a server for sure
<zequence> len-dt: There's no server flavor anymore
<len-dt> I thought ubuntu was trying to have a server market... something that pays.
<zequence> ..wait
<zequence> I must have misunderstood something
<zequence> It's the same versioning anyway
<len-dt> Even in LTS?
<zequence> No server flavor since 12.04
<len-dt> Or are the LTS ones always even?
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Dev/Flavours
<zequence> lucid had a preempt flavor. Didn't know that. Only mad64
<zequence> amd64*
<len-dt> what has happened with the LMMS thing? (swept under the carpet?)
<zequence> len-dt: Perhaps just that no one has taken a decision for adding it
<len-dt> But no talk either
<len-dt> I could add it to the seeds and see what happens...
<zequence> I think we covered just about everything on the mail list
<zequence> I'm for adding it
<len-dt> If I add it to the seeds now it should show tomorrow either in or broken build.
 * len-dt is willing to take the blame
<len-dt> I'll comment the commit as "trial only"
<zequence> Nah, just add it
<len-dt> will do.
<zequence> I think it fills a workflow that other applications don't really do
<zequence> It's not like there are 5 other apps like LMMS out there
<zequence> And to those who say it's buggy. Well, so are most of the other apps as well
<Len-nb> gmorgan tries to do much the same.
<zequence> If we all had magic wands, maybe we could solve those problems pretty quick
<Len-nb> or got paid... just for this
<zequence> gmorgan was new to me, but that looks more like a tracker than a sequencer
<zequence> Ah, musical patterns
 * Len-nb is going to eat
<zequence> Never seen an interface like that one before
<zequence> the mail accounts request seems to have been accepted
<zequence> I must be doing something wrong. I can't get an rt kernel built with decent performance
<zequence> There's a new config for the rt patch though, called CONFIG_PREEMPT_LAZY
<zequence> But, disabling it doesn't help much
<zequence> I'm getting worse performance than from -lowlatency
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-12-02
<OvenWerk1> cub ping
<OvenWerk1> cub re: languages.... c c++ python  would be my guesses
<OvenWerk1> it depends on the lib the dev wishes to use
<OvenWerk1> gtk is c and qt is c++
<OvenWerk1> we were trying to avoid kde apps for a while but that was to ship less libs.
<OvenWerk1> in the end we want the best or most used apps to be included.
<cub> ah, I'm trying to convince a friend who is a developer to participate in ubuntu studio
<cub> I think he mostly work with c and c++
<OvenWerk1> we don't do that much coding ourselves.
<cub> no but it would not hurt to have someone who knows some about it?
<OvenWerk1> Most of what we do is with script like python or perl
<OvenWerk1> The big use we would have fopeople who know code is bug fixing.
<cub> yeah
<cub> but we'll see, he's quite busy with work, family and music...as most of us so he wasn't sure he would have the time
<OvenWerk1> Our direction seems to be changing some. The focus seems to be moving towards making the workflow metas really good.
<OvenWerk1> Once in a while work is good too. as you have probably seen there are no real dead lines
<zequence> cub: There's perhaps only one project that might need C/C++ coding - a workflow manager, most likely in the form of a panel. It's a loose concept that has not been deeply developed yet
<zequence> Our other applications, the installer, and ubuntustudio-controls could both be coded in any language with either GTK or QT
<zequence> currently, -installer is in perl? and -controls is python/GTK
<zequence> We do have deadlines. But, we don't get serious consequences in not making them, as we are not a business.
<cub> I was looking at the work flow page last week, but unsure on how to proceed
<cub> it feels like april 2014 is quite soon. :P
<cub> this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageListSaucy
<zequence> cub: categories needs to be established, and then, each application needs to be put into a category
<zequence> It would be good to add all that data to a searchable database
<zequence> We don't need to do it all over again for each release either
<zequence> Just update it
<zequence> The categories should follow existing freedesktop and Debian categories as much as possible
<zequence> That means, one needs to understand what those are first
<zequence> well, Debian has sections. Not sure about the details myself, actually
<zequence> Sorry, packages need to be tagges with one or more categories. Not applications, as that is not the same thing
<cub> the current list, is that everything that is available or is it what's actually included in an default installation?
<cub> hm should be all available, as I understand it
<zequence> all available under the "sound" section of Ubuntu
<zequence> not nessecarily all that should be included under the audio workflow, since there might be non-"sound" packages that belong there too
<cub> yup
<zequence> perhaps we should use a calc document for this?
<zequence> one that we can share and use as basis for a searchable database
<zequence> or what's the term, calc sheet?
<cub> spread sheet
<cub> but most people sadly call it "Excel sheet"
<cub> what's a good way to share it? Ubuntu One?
<zequence> Sure
<knome> zequence, spreadsheet
<zequence> it's nice if the data can easily be transferred to other form of databases easily. I suppose there's a way to save in a common format
<knome> well CSV usually works
<knome> oh, heh, didn't notice cub already said that ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-12-03
<stochastic> I have a quick question about the merchandise at spreadshirt.
<stochastic> Is there any way to get the same designs available from a North American distributor?  Spreadshirt does have a US based location.
<stochastic> I ask because shipping to Vancouver from Germany quickly turns the t-shirt into a $45 t-shirt when I can easily go to any store and buy $10 shirts.
<stochastic> it's probably cheaper to get a one-off made here than to buy from that store and ship it (more eco friendly too)
<zequence> stochastic: ttoine is the one who handles the shop. But, I don't think he knows too much about the shipping part though.
<stochastic> okay, i'll wait til he's around
<zequence> maybe he should open up a shop in US too?
<zequence> I don't know how that works
<zequence> stochastic: send him an email. He doesn't come here regularly
<zequence> ttoine @ ttoine.net
<stochastic> ok will do
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-12-04
<Rosco2> exit
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-12-08
<cub> zequence, OvenWerk1 how can one check what makes the daily trusty build fail, and how can one fix it?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-12-03
<DalekSec> bug 1398619
<ubottu> bug 1398619 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "No indicators displayed when systemd-sysv is installed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1398619
<DalekSec> Bah, I meant bug 1211933, it's in ubuntustudio-live too.
<ubottu> bug 1211933 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "mkinitramfs blows up on casper dependency" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1211933
<zequence> DalekSec: Thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-12-04
<zequence> A guy is maintaining a -rt kernel for Ubuntu, and would like it to be adopted to the official repos http://capocasa.net/realtime-kernels
<zequence> We should have a look at it, test it, and see how we can help out with that.
<zequence> Hmm, or he did not actually ask for it to get adopted. He just announced it.
<zequence> Anyway, here's the thread https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2014-December/038555.html
<zequence> OvenWerks: How's your progress in getting a dev machine set up?
<zequence> I might not be doing anything else then keeping track of emails for the next month. Planning to get stuff done in January. Well before FF, anyhow.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-12-06
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am at least a few weeks to go yet. Then there is the seasonal family activities :) As well as resetting the house up after flood restoration :(
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-11-30
<OvenWerk1> It will be a while before y'all wake up I would guess... booted the full dvd to look at whisker.
<OvenWerk1> that is the worst way for it to be. That is the way it is shows whisker at it's worst.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: I can probably take ~/.config/xfce4/panel/whiskermenu-1.rc and drop it in /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/whiskermenu/defaults.rc
<OvenWerk1>  to effect a change.
<OvenWerk1> I see you have that directoru file there... but it is not installed. needs to be moved into etc as above to take effect.
<OvenWerk1> hmm, the one you have looks the same as what we have it needs to be fixed.
<OvenWerk1> I have some ideas. zequence: I think I am going to set up three (maybe four) panels one right under the other. The top one will be the same as now but fixed.
<OvenWerk1> the next will be what we had before, then the old menu but with four menus... main plus Audio, Video and Graphics
<OvenWerk1> Then maybe whisker and the three subs.
<OvenWerk1> That way people can see the three or four ways and suggest what is easiest to use.
<OvenWerk1> More stuff, looking at the source on https://github.com/gottcode/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin, It appears there is a custom-menu-file=* option that could be used. But I am not seeing any way of telling whisker to use more than one.
<OvenWerk1> In the end, I think we want nothing fancy anyway. as it would be hard to transfer fancy stuff to another DE... beyond lxde/kde anyway.
<OvenWerk1> Actually zequence it looks really good so far. Make two changes to the whisker menu:
<OvenWerk1> button-icon=ubuntustudio-logo
<OvenWerk1> hover-switch-category=true
<OvenWerk1> I think you already have: load-hierarchy=true
<OvenWerk1> I think the favourites should reflect the top four apps in our old menu: browser, file manager, editor and terminal. Though to be honest I never use editor, I would be willing to drop that. settings has it's own button in whisker anyway.
<OvenWerk1> editor generally gets launched via context.
<OvenWerk1> We end up with a mail application and a few games :)
<OvenWerk1> I miss having the expanding menu to the size that fits all apps. Whisker doesn't have a scroll by mousing past the bottom action :( or an open submenu by hovering... but at least it does correctly display them \o/
<OvenWerk1> having the second panel gone seems to be a good idea.
<OvenWerk1> Ok, reboot and try some stuff. zequence I will have an upload ready later on for settings.
<OvenWerk1> we still don't ship jack.tools?
<OvenWerk1> Sorry jack-tools
<OvenWerk1> We do now.
<OvenWerk1> Why do the thunar po files not come with thunar?
<OvenWerk1> Might help if I was working on x not w :P
<OvenWerk1> Have to get x first
<OvenWerk1> zequence: I installed things. I went much better than it has in the past.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I think you are attacking the problem from the wrong angle. You are working from the perspective that we are to keep our own desktop base, but we don't really have one since no one is maintaining it.
<zequence> So, what we should do is make the Xubuntu stuff work, then find the best way to do that without including all their specifics in our seeds
<zequence> And, also all the other DEs
<zequence> If you want our own DE, I would suggest you start workin on one, from scratch
<zequence> But, then I would say you are responsible for maintaining it
<NoklaM> Is there daily build out is yesterdays fine?
<zequence> NoklaM: Yes, they should work though I don't think anything has changed since the build before
<NoklaM> ah cool
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Ok, I see. Yeah, I misplaced the whiskers configs.
<zequence> I'll put those in the right place.
<zequence> Also the terminal settings. A bit of a mess there.
<NoklaM> gtg, doctors time
<zequence> I'm commenting xubuntu-artwork from seeds, since it conflicts with our stuff
<NoklaM> argh, had to call my doctor's apointment
<zequence> Connection really sucks here. Going to relocate.
<NoklaM> I need a new pc for testing
<NoklaM> Will studio run on a Sempron 190 and 4gigs of RAM? or am I just chancing it
<zequence> 4GB is more than enough
<NoklaM> ah wicked
<NoklaM> Just got to get a case and a PSU together 
<zequence> If the computer is not more than 10 years old, it should be able to run any Ubuntu flavor
<NoklaM> beautiful 
<NoklaM> I'll make it a dedicated testing machine
<zequence> I would say it's hard to survive on less than 2GB, though with modern applications, like web browser, you will quickly use up that as well.
<zequence> So, 4GB is plenty
<NoklaM> The cpu might be a slight bottle neck
<NoklaM> no idea can i unlock the 3rd core on it
<zequence> What do you mean, unlock?
<NoklaM> it has 3rd core that's locked on it, it's a downgraded Athlone x3
<zequence> IF the CPU is slow, just takes longer time to process stuff
<zequence> Ah, don't know how that works
<NoklaM> Basicly Intel and AMD produce a batch of cpu's and then lock some features on some and sell them for less(economical reasons)
<zequence> The biggest problem may be the graphics card. It needs to have graphics acceleration support
<NoklaM> oops that could be a problem
<NoklaM> no gpu in  the house, and I'm using an outdated 4870HD
<zequence> That's why I say if it is older than 10 years.
<zequence> That's a Radeon card, right?
<NoklaM> Yup
<zequence> I'm pretty sure it'll work. If it's not more than 10 years old.
<NoklaM> Problem is I'm using it on the main pc
<NoklaM> got to find a cheap substitute
<zequence> Ah, right. But, what do you have in the PC?
<zequence> A builtin of some type?
<NoklaM> It's a integrated
<zequence> Just run the live ISO, and you'll notice pretty quickly of things work or not
<NoklaM> Yup will do that, once I get a case and psu
<NoklaM> Closest pc shop is 140km away
<NoklaM> o.O
<NoklaM> Dublin actually
<zequence> There's always mail order :)
<NoklaM> Now got a question tho, would it make sense to test mass storage on Studio?
<zequence> What kind of mass storage?
<NoklaM> 2x2Tb drives
<zequence> You mean, setting up your own raid, something like that?
<NoklaM> yes raid mirrored
<zequence> Well, it works the same on all flavors. Not sure if there are gui tools. Don't use them myself
<zequence> I'm talking about software raid, just to be clear
<NoklaM> Software yes
<NoklaM> I think Film producers use a lot of storage
<NoklaM> since the movies they do can be big in size
<zequence> Yeah, both audio and video may require a lot of space, and you don't want to loose any files
<NoklaM> true
 * NoklaM is excited about a new rig
<zequence> Sounds like a good idea to have a look at that
<zequence> If you want, you can do some research, and once you find the simplest way to set that up, document it, and we'll add support for it by including whatever we aren't already including
<zequence> Also, we should have a bit of documentation for it, or at least link to existing documentation.
<zequence> I think the average user wouldn't want to be using the terminal for setting up a RAID
<zequence> But, if there is nothing else, then I suppose that is what you will have to do
<NoklaM> <-- average user xD
<NoklaM> I'll see how it goes
<NoklaM> But defo gona check the raid options
<NoklaM> since I might need a lot of storage myself
<zequence> I'm using RAID on my server, and owncloud to sync my studio recordings with the server
<zequence> But, would be better to have RAID in the studio as well.
<NoklaM> Future proof
<zequence> Think serious movie people would use external servers for data storage though, but still, seems like something smart to have for smaller setups.
<NoklaM> a double back up can't hurt
<zequence> Ok, new -default-settings and -meta uploaded. Hopefully this time the meta binaries will be published.
<NoklaM> sudo apt-get update?
<zequence> Takes a bit of time before they are installable
<zequence> I just uploaded the source to the archive, where the binaries will be built and then published
<zequence> Takes a bit of time for those to end up on different mirrors as well
<NoklaM> ah I see, is all automated now
<NoklaM> for some reason the calendar is caled orage in my build
<zequence> No binaries are ever built locally on someones machine. They all need to be built with the same clean setup at Canonical's server famr.
<zequence> It is the XFCE calendar, yes
<NoklaM> ah thought someone forgot to translate that
<zequence> Hmm, actually the previous meta was just published. Must be one of the archive admins who did that manually.
<zequence> NoklaM: I wouldn't do a sudo apt-get update right now, cause that would install some packages that you don't want
<NoklaM> ok :)
<zequence> This is the latest upload. Building currently. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/0.144
<NoklaM> i actually did an update this morning
<NoklaM> but had an error about missing unreachable repos
<NoklaM> dunno if it was a bug since i updated for the first time since installed the daily build
<zequence> That would not be related. The ubuntustudio- packages were just published less than an hour ago
<zequence> Missing repos is something to do with your sources file /etc/apt/sources.list
<zequence> or, a PPA of some kind, which would be in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
<NoklaM> I'll check is it persisting with the next update(after it's safe to install)
<zequence> Once ubuntustudio-desktop is version 1.144 it's ok to install.
<NoklaM> Â£ to Euro conversion is killing me today
<NoklaM> still amazon.co.uk cheapest place to buy from Ireland o.O
<NoklaM> if I delete a file locally that I've previously uplodoaded to launchpad will it delete it there as well or will it be fine?
<NoklaM> bzr confuses me a lot
<zequence> NoklaM: bzr is a version control system, so each commit will be saved
<zequence> NoklaM: Whatever changes you make, and then commit, those are the changes that will be saved with that commit
<zequence> Once you push your commit(s) to the branch in launchpad, others will be able to pull your commits
<NoklaM> The problem is everytime i commit on difrent file it commits on the 1st file i created and then the 2nd and now 3rd all of them at the same time
<zequence> It's called pushing, and pulling, as opposed to uploading and downloading
<zequence> If you change two files, then commit, the actual commit will include only the changes to those two files
<zequence> Usually you always check out the latest commit of a branch, but you can check out any commit done at any time
<zequence> So, you can go backwards in history
<zequence> It's like backups. But, it's incremental. With each commit (backup), only the zeroes and ones that diff will be saved.
<NoklaM> Yesterday i was working on inkscape test and it kept pushing commits to krita file i had earlier
<NoklaM> Do i have to do bzr remove --keep file
<NoklaM> or it reset severy time i do bzr add file
<NoklaM> ?
<zequence> bzr add <file> does not commit. It only adds files for the next commit
<zequence> IF you change a file, bzr will know, so next time you commit, those changes will be committed
<zequence> If you create a new file, you need to use 'bzr add <file>' in order to be able to commit that file
<zequence> 'bzr commit -m "<message>"' saves all changes so far.
<NoklaM> but for some reason it was sending my commits on krita file + inkscape file at the same time
<zequence> 'bzr push :parent' will push all commits to the launchpad branch, that didn't already exist there
<zequence> So, if you made multiple commits, 'bzr push' will push all of them
<NoklaM> It was pushing both file although i had no changes to krita file and never commited on it
<NoklaM> So it confused me a lot
<zequence> The only way it would commit changes to krita is if you made changes to it
<zequence> That, or there was some corruption on your disk/RAM, or something, which I think can happen with bzr (though, highly unusual)
<zequence> by krita I mean the krita file
<NoklaM> yes krita testcase file
<zequence> You can review the changes for each commit
<zequence> Let's see..
<NoklaM> i can't find the commit history on launchpad
<zequence> To see the last commit number in the branch, do: bzr revno
<zequence> Then, to see what changed since last commit, do: bzr diff -r<number>
<zequence> replace <number> with the revno - 1
<zequence> What you get is some diff text. It shows you which files have changed, and what in those files has changed
<zequence> + for added lines, - for deleted lines
<NoklaM> I'm so gonna get writing right now and publish a guide to testing with bzr
<NoklaM> so much to learn for a newbie like me
<NoklaM> i need to have this written down somewhere
<zequence> http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/mini-tutorial/
<NoklaM> i was using that yesterday and i found it kinda confused me slightly in some parts
<NoklaM> maybe it's my reading comprehension
<zequence> I started something here too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Bzr
<zequence> Problem is it's written for people who already are familiar with that kind of stuff
<NoklaM> that's true, very true
<NoklaM> Yesterday was my first day using version control
<zequence> There's a problem with the wiki formatting. There's a big gap between the text and the first code example.
<NoklaM> i used git for like 5 seconds, and astana or whatever it's called for 5 minutes
<zequence> Takes a bit of time to get the logic down.
<zequence> Ah, here's how to review changes more in detail http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/user-guide/reviewing_changes.html
<zequence> Everything since revision 1000: bzr diff -r 1000
<zequence> Only changes between two revisions: bzr diff -r1000..1001
<NoklaM> I'm not a programmer(although I'd love to be one) some of those concepts are very very confusing
<NoklaM> and i bet 5/10 people who will join the testing team will run in to similar problems
<zequence> I'm sure you are right
<zequence> NoklaM: YOu should check with flocculant if there are some resources for that already
<zequence> NoklaM: Where's the code in launchpad, btw?
<NoklaM> It's merged with the ubuntu-testing branch i think
<NoklaM> flocculant reviewed it and merged it me thinks
<zequence> Well, you had your own branch, right?
<NoklaM> I don't think i used my own branch rather then submitting to the bug cases
<zequence> What branch did you push to?
<NoklaM> noklam/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug#number
<NoklaM> with number being the testcase i was working on
<zequence> Ok, well I'm here now https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-manual-tests/trunk
<zequence> Seems like you have made two commits
<zequence> 355 and 356, right?
<NoklaM> 362 is the latest
<NoklaM> o.O
<NoklaM> on my system
<zequence> Yeah, but those are commits you have done since, right?
<NoklaM> Nope those are before i pushed
<zequence> Ok, well, there are two merges anyway
<zequence> Each merge is a commit in itself
<zequence> Ah, yes. The two merges are about 6h apart
<zequence> 355 and 356
<NoklaM> sorry i can barely think with this noise, my neighbours alarm went off an hour ago
<NoklaM> all i can hear is "eueu"
<zequence> NoklaM: You can see those two revisions on this page https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-manual-tests/trunk
<zequence> :P
<zequence> That's the branch where all the merges go
<zequence> So, whatever revision numbers you have aren't going to be the same in that branch.
<NoklaM> ah yes i see them
<zequence> If you click the numbers, you will see all the changes for that revision
<NoklaM> i see those
<NoklaM> ah they're after my 362 commit was pushed
<zequence> You can also check out the two branches you created from which the merges were done, to see their specific commits, like this one https://code.launchpad.net/~noklam/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug
<zequence> All of those changes I suspect ended up as a single commit when flocculant did the merge
<zequence> ..in the ubuntu-manual-test trunk branch, that is
<NoklaM> yea i can't find those in my personal launchpad
<NoklaM> probably have to create a branch or something
<NoklaM> looking back, i have no idea how 21 lines of html took me 1hour each
<zequence> heh
<NoklaM> I did 2 test cases yesterday each took me 1h between testing and writing :P
<NoklaM> brb gonna grab a cuppa
<NoklaM> back
<NoklaM> gonna get to do some test cases, just got to find programs I have clue about
<zequence> rmadison says the latest metas are published now, but could be they are not in all mirrors yet
<NoklaM> I'll wait another 5-10 and download
<NoklaM> also do i need special codecs for .ogv on linux?
<NoklaM> It's seems i can't watch what i record on recordmydesktop
<NoklaM> unless I put in video edditing software
<zequence> Don't know much about codecs. If you want the non-free stuff, you do: sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras
<zequence> To update using the terminal, btw, do: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<NoklaM> ok
<NoklaM> Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
<zequence> Which were they?
<NoklaM> I'll paste the whole thing to pastebin
<NoklaM> http://pastebin.com/9NVcsArS
<zequence> Bunch of lines that has "True" in them, where you would have the release codename
<zequence> This is a fresh install, and you didn't mess with the apt sources file?
<NoklaM> nope installed yesterday
<NoklaM> one updat etrhough synaptic this morning that was it
<zequence> Doesn't look right to me, anyhow. If you like, see what's in /etc/apt/sources.list, and if there are any files in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
<zequence> I'll be doing my first install tomorrow, or the earliest this evening, so I can't double check.
<NoklaM> The Irish mirror for ubuntu is the only thing in apt sources.list
<NoklaM> well bunch of em
<NoklaM> no filed in list.d
<zequence> Maybe those are always there, and I never thought about it. But, as long as the xenial repos work, you'll be alright
<zequence> Ok, time to do other things for a while. Catch you later NoklaM 
<NoklaM> see you zequence :)
<OvenWerk1> zequence: I think I said something that was misunderstood. Not trying to do a new desktop at all.
<OvenWerk1> What is there now is actually very good.
<OvenWerk1> I was mostly just giving my thoughts on the run while testing.
<OvenWerk1> I do want to try something in settings for people to look at... not as a finalized thing. as it will be wrong the way I do it, but for people to compare. The change does not affect the desktop packages at all only our settings.
<OvenWerk1> Probably most of it will come out after people look at it. (some of it will come out for sure)
<OvenWerk1> zequence: note that my directory to put whiskermenu in was wrong. I found this out by doing in an install.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: please upload https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/ubuntustudio-default-settings
<NoklaM> o/
<flocculant> evening 
<NoklaM> How's it going?
<flocculant> just winding down now :)
<NoklaM> Ah nice, I just woke up xD was so tired that i decided that an afternoon nap is a must
<flocculant> heh
<NoklaM> Was on in the morning was doing a test case(forgot to save or bzr add :() but slept the whole aftrenoon
<flocculant> I saw the backlog
<NoklaM> Also I can't update the daily build
<flocculant> I saw a mail saying it had failed to build
<OvenWerks> yes.. but why doesn't make sense.
<OvenWerks> it says: The following packages have unmet dependencies: osspd : Conflicts: oss-compat
<NoklaM> Should I still do my testcase or wait for the daily build (captureMyDesktop)
<flocculant> NoklaM: just use old one - there'll be no change 
<NoklaM> ok
<NoklaM> Got to practise what i did yesterday
<NoklaM> And I'm close to the top in karma points
<NoklaM> just 30 more and I'm in tpo 5
<NoklaM> s/tpo/top
<NoklaM> also just noticed that gedit has a massive margin box filled with a grey color in the background that's sticking out about 30px, should it behave that way?
<flocculant> that's a bug - fix is in -proposed
<OvenWerks> There seem to have been no changes to these two packages for a year. They are supposed to work together.
<OvenWerks> flocculant: is the window decoration fixed as well?
<flocculant> OvenWerks: what was up with it? 
<OvenWerks> compare to any other title bar on the ISO.
<flocculant> OvenWerks: gedit? I don't have that
<OvenWerks> gedit does not use the WM title bar and istead creates it's own with a different theme.
<NoklaM> that seems fine
<flocculant> http://i.imgur.com/ExufiSd.png fileroller back to what's expected 
<OvenWerks> Ya, that looks better.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I don't understand the idea you have for customizing menu stuff in -default-settings
<OvenWerks> I expect to take most of it out, I wanted people to be able to see some ideas to choose from.
<zequence> OvenWerks: It's better you do that from a PPA
<zequence> And, what do you mean most? We shouldn't be putting anything there which is not Xubuntu synced, besides some theming since we are moving away from that
<OvenWerks> I do want people to see it
<zequence> You have the -menu package for doing menu customizaton
<OvenWerks> pannel setting are in -setting.
<zequence> If it's not multimedia specific, don't put it there
<zequence> We can't both base on Xubuntu and not at the same time
<OvenWerks> So then why have anything in /etc/xdg at all?
<zequence> The idea is we don't even have our own panel settings
<OvenWerks> Why even have xdg-ubuntustudio?
<zequence> We won't be
<zequence> Since we are going desktop agnostic
<OvenWerks> So we should take that out then.
<zequence> Not until we have found a way to do it right
<OvenWerks> Do what right?
<zequence> What we have been talking about the last year, or more
<zequence> We base on other DE's, and we stop having our own
<OvenWerks> If we are not going to add anything, then xdg-ubuntustudio can come out. There is nothing about doing it right or wrong.
<zequence> Right now, we have our own theming. That is still there
<OvenWerks> Our metas already run right on top of a xubuntu install.
<zequence> If we are too keep some things, we will probably need our own session
<zequence> There are some problems that need to be worked out
<OvenWerks> backdrop and icon for the menu only.
<OvenWerks> We already use the same theme.
<OvenWerks> (or close enough)
<zequence> Well, if you have good solutions, please present them in the mail list, or in a package in a PPA, or whatever. Or, I will, within the week.
<zequence> I will be using a PPA when doing testing
<OvenWerks> Solutions to what?
<zequence> Going desktop agnostic
<zequence> The whole shebang
<zequence> ubiquity plugin, the works
<OvenWerks> Either we use xubuntu with our metas or we don't.
<OvenWerks> I have installed our metas on top of xubuntu with the only difference being backdrop and menu icon.
<zequence> Well, one question is if we want to keep our theming, and perhaps also use it for other DEs
<OvenWerks> once we use xdg-ubuntustudio at all, we may as well make whatever look changes make sense.
<NoklaM> Sorry to interupt, but does anyone have the testcases launchpad web adress so i can get a bug number
<OvenWerks> each is DE specific.
<zequence> Yes, I know
<NoklaM> lost all of my history on irc
<flocculant> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?orderby=-id&start=0
<NoklaM> tyvm
<zequence> NoklaM: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/11/30/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<NoklaM> so just double checking : bzr push noklam/ubutu-manual-tests/bug#1184745
<OvenWerks> To go DE agnostic with theming that is our own means a desktop settings package for each DE. I would prefer to _provide_ the artwork and let the user enable it.
<zequence> Ok, well, let
<flocculant> NoklaM: for just record desktop that'd work
<zequence> let's start with that.
<NoklaM> Yup that's the one I've just now
<NoklaM> so gonna push that and /pray that i didn't do something stupid again
<zequence> I'm heading for bed here. I don't want to upload the changes to -default-settings as they are now. If you want to use them for something, I would suggest starting work on a custom DE setup entirely.
<zequence> ..and also pledge to maintain it for at least the three years xenial will be supported
<NoklaM> nope I can't push it, did : bzr push lp:noklam/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug#number , and it says there is no project noklam
<NoklaM> o.O
<flocculant> you need a ~,  bzr push lp:~noklam/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug#number
<NoklaM> ah explains it tyvm again :)
<NoklaM> and now i went to my personal launchpad and can't find it to assign it
<NoklaM> i mean to send it for review
<flocculant> NoklaM: I'm not sure what you're doing there - but you sent the old stuff again ;)
<NoklaM> argh
<NoklaM> no way
<flocculant> are you making sure the local branch is up to date when you start work on a new one? 
<NoklaM> How do i do that?
<NoklaM> Must have missed that bit
<flocculant> not sure it's written down anywhere in the QA pages 
<flocculant> run bzr pull in the local copy 
<NoklaM> bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how.  
<NoklaM> Use the merge command to reconcile them.
<NoklaM> sorry for paste
<NoklaM> i have no idea what that means
<flocculant> NoklaM: rename your local copy to something else so you don't lose it
<flocculant> then grab the branch again so you know you've a clean copy with bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
<flocculant> then copy the new test into it
<NoklaM> the whole folder?
<flocculant> I don't know what you mean :)
<flocculant> rename the copy of ubuntu-manual-tests to something else 
<NoklaM> ah ok
<flocculant> then grab it again
<flocculant> when you push, please push to lp:~noklam/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug1184745 for that record one
<flocculant> when you do the next one - make it a new one :)
<NoklaM> Eh now i forgot how to grab a whole directory
<flocculant> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
<NoklaM> ag ty
<NoklaM> ah*
<flocculant> and it will have diverged as you didn't have an up to date copy - all the things that you did yesterday were changed when I merged them with a new name :)
<flocculant> you think krita is called krita - it's not anymore, it's 1664_krita :)
<NoklaM> ok so did that branch thing then bzr add file, then bzr commit -m "blah blah" file and now I think i'm ready to push it
<NoklaM> just making sure i did all right up to now
<flocculant> sounds right
<NoklaM> i think it worked
<flocculant> it did :)
<NoklaM> ./fingerscrossed
<NoklaM> Yay! :D
<NoklaM> now please give 30 karma haha
<NoklaM> 33 :P
<flocculant> This test ill check ... 
<NoklaM> D'oh
<flocculant> fix that and push it again to the same place :)
<NoklaM> fixed :D
<NoklaM> Odd that the spell checker didn't get that
<NoklaM> wish there was a linux version of grammarly
<flocculant> why would it - ill is a word :)
<NoklaM> d'oh
<NoklaM> true
<NoklaM> was that worth 33 karma points?
<NoklaM> haha probaly not
<NoklaM> s/porbably
<flocculant> all done
<flocculant> so you can now run bzr pull and it should grab the new one
<NoklaM> But rename/delete this one so it doesn't collide
<NoklaM> ?
<flocculant> no - just bzr pull first 
<flocculant> then look in /Studio see what you've got there
<NoklaM> ah i see 1666_record*
<NoklaM> so no need to remove every time
<flocculant> nope
<flocculant> assuming you do them one at a time ofc 
<flocculant> and that someone has merged it :)
<flocculant> anyway - time for me to wander off into the night :)
<NoklaM> Ok, have a good night :)
<NoklaM> and thanks
<flocculant> welcome :)
<NoklaM> OvenWerks, you working on a custom DE theme or visuals?
<sakrecoer_> Greetings NoklaM !! welcome!! what i vibbrant backlog i the IRC today! makes me happy :) 
<NoklaM> Hey hey sakrecoer_  :)
<NoklaM> thanks
<sakrecoer_> thanks right back at ya! :)
<sakrecoer_> i'm fairly new arround too..
<NoklaM> so much to learn o.O really I've learned a lot since yesterday
<NoklaM> i can uze bzr like a pro /joke
<sakrecoer_> yeah dude! you rock!
<sakrecoer_> i'm serious tho!
<NoklaM> thanks /blush /blush
<sakrecoer_> i'm probably one of the least technical in the team... 
<NoklaM> I can't decide: Do I want to make things nice looking (css/html/general frontend) or do I want to make em functional with programming
<NoklaM> I'm considering a career change
<NoklaM> Honestly probably whatever I pick will be better than a Store clerk
<sakrecoer_> maybe they go hand in hand? making things nice looking functional, to leave the store clerk?
<sakrecoer_> again.. maybe better: _functional things that also look nice_
<sakrecoer_> :)
<NoklaM> Hehe that would be actually awesome, but my time is limited to a year of self study
<sakrecoer_> i see. you have it invest it wisely then.
<sakrecoer_> your time
<NoklaM> Yup, got a year before I'm 30 
<sakrecoer_> :) i'm 35
 * sakrecoer_ is a happy robot
<NoklaM> Oh nice, not that far age wise
<sakrecoer_> ye. i like life. :)
<NoklaM> Eh life, I won't start on that one
<sakrecoer_> :)
<NoklaM> Gives you lemons, straight in the eyes, without a warning and you got 10 seconds to react or they burst
<sakrecoer_> haha!
<sakrecoer_> so these test cases, how it work?
<sakrecoer_> (^^,)
<NoklaM> There is like some programs that need testing, like a write up, Do they run and do they have basic functionality
<NoklaM> For the 16.04 release that is
<sakrecoer_> yeah! cool! you seem to have pace! and i don't realy, but i want to help. say i want to test fontforge, how do i proceed?
<NoklaM> oh my, let me find my notes :P
<sakrecoer_> i have the dev install open and stuff :)
<NoklaM> do you have launchpad account
<NoklaM> ?
<sakrecoer_> sorry
<sakrecoer_> battery died :D
<NoklaM> no worries :P
<NoklaM> happens, unless you have chromebook
<sakrecoer_> ye! launchpad check :)
<NoklaM> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?orderby=-id&start=0
<NoklaM> that's what needs testing
<NoklaM> but now comes the bzr part
<sakrecoer_> readin
<NoklaM> Do you have your identity set in bzr?
<NoklaM> and ssh key for launchpad?
<sakrecoer_> key check, bzr... unsure..
<NoklaM> ok... bzr is kinda funny
<NoklaM> let's try and guide you through it painlessly
<sakrecoer_> man:ing myself to conclusions
<sakrecoer_> yep... bzr check
<sakrecoer_> ssh key check
<NoklaM> http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/mini-tutorial/
<NoklaM> do the first two steps :)
<sakrecoer_> thanks!
<NoklaM> once you do that type:  bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
<NoklaM> ./fingerscrosseditworks and i didn't mess up
<NoklaM> that should download the branch to your local hdd
<NoklaM> also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ContributingTestcases/Manual
<sakrecoer_> ./fingerscrosseditworks executed and ran fine!
<sakrecoer_> :)
<NoklaM> now you can navigate to ubuntu-manual-tests/testcases/packages/Studio/
<NoklaM> Create your files in that folder :)
<NoklaM> Also you can check the ones that are already there
<NoklaM> + read the style guide on the offical wiki i linked :D
<sakrecoer_> great!! thanks!!
<NoklaM> when you save your work you have to commit on it with changes done
<NoklaM> it's done by bzr commit -m "Text of what you did goes here" filename
<NoklaM> where filename = the actual name of the file you created
<NoklaM> oh before you do that tho : bzr add fileyouworkingon
<NoklaM> sorry forgot about that part
<sakrecoer_> Thank you very much NoklaM !
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: just some menuing ideas.
<NoklaM> OvenWerks, I might be able to help if you need any
<OvenWerks> have you compared whisker to the panel menu?
<NoklaM> Whiskers? 
<OvenWerks> on the iso (and in xubuntu) they now use whiskermenu
<OvenWerks> There are some nice things about whiskermenu
<NoklaM> I've only ever heard whiskers used in reference to a cat o.O
<OvenWerks> However, it can be harder to use as well
<OvenWerks> Whisker is a great menu for a lite desktop, but takes more mouse clicks to handle sub menus
<OvenWerks> Studio uses a lot of submenus
<OvenWerks> Studio is not lite, but set up to be productive
<NoklaM> oh you mean the side arrows on the actual categories is that right?
<OvenWerks> by having all the tools needed close at hand. Submenus allow the menu not to get so cluttered
<NoklaM> That's true
<NoklaM> I was wondering, i seen it be done in few distros, a big whole screen transparent popup with all the app and categories on the side, search on top and all the apps in mid
<sakrecoer_> i think xfce is great. but the ideal would be to be able to pull ubuntustudio from any flavour, and have an integrated sollution for the VAST amount of software it gives :)
<sakrecoer_> integrated menu-sollution even
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: take the audio menu for example, there is a midi submenu. With the old style menu the mouse just huvering can navigate to an item in the midi submenu. With whisker that is not possible
<NoklaM> grr it badly needs a show desktop options too, just spent a minute closing all the windows
<OvenWerks> I wanted to try having the main menu, but also in the panel have the main workflow menus beside it. just to see if that was somthing that would grab people.
<OvenWerks> Also to have both kinds of menu side by side so that people can try them out at the same time and see which kind they find themselves reaching for.
<NoklaM> In all honesty, Studio is great, but... the visuals don't follow the awesome internals
<NoklaM> wb OvenWerks 
<NoklaM> In all honesty, Studio is great, but... the visuals don't follow the awesome internals
<NoklaM> I was expecting, before i even seen it, something more flashy
<sakrecoer_> it seems to be a difficult task to keep things homogenic in a free environement :)
<sakrecoer_> the landing graphics could be defenitly be streamlined. we realy should give a sweet look, its lts after all.
<sakrecoer_> but beyond having an operational desktop that looks good packaged with it, look at each software we have: blender, ardour, gimp... its unhomogenifiable :D
<NoklaM> Trying to make a mock but all my photoshop shortcuts are way difrent in gimp xD
<sakrecoer_> hehe muscle memory :)
<sakrecoer_> NoklaM: are you bart from the list?
<NoklaM> Aye :)
<sakrecoer_> :)
<sakrecoer_> cool! my name is set
<NoklaM> Nice to meet you Set :0
<NoklaM> :)
<sakrecoer_> likewise! help is needed with the graphics, so your ideas are as wanted and welcome as you :)
<NoklaM> any idea how do i resterize a layer in gimp?
<NoklaM> got it nvm
<sakrecoer_> rasterize in what sense?
<NoklaM> Was just discard text info and get it to become a normal layer :P
<sakrecoer_> in the bzr branch of ubuntu-manualtest, if there is a file, it means someone has tested it right?
<NoklaM> yup
<NoklaM> you make a new one without the number and name it after the program you're testing :)
<NoklaM> http://imgur.com/1rvSTvT <--- OvenWerks  that's something i was thinking off, that could solve a lot of problems
<NoklaM> or create a lot more i dunno
<NoklaM> don't mind the bad quality it's my first go at gimp
<NoklaM> If anything unclear I'll explain
<NoklaM> also i had one icon :(
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I am looking at the link above... what am I seeing?
<NoklaM> That's the state of the menu after pressing the current logo on the left (my imagination tho)
<NoklaM> A big search and icons in a A-Z format which can be customized to Most used and Favourited ones 1st
<NoklaM> concept basicly
<NoklaM> Scrolling could be done with a flicker of the mouse or just standard scroll 
<OvenWerks> search for what?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-12-01
<NoklaM> Programs
<OvenWerks> It would never work for me personally, but I do know it is the new thing.
<OvenWerks> I never seem to be able to use a search term that gets what I want.
<NoklaM> You just search for programs name
<OvenWerks> Or if I do, it is at the bottom of the third or fourth page of apps.
<NoklaM> or category 
<OvenWerks> just he says....  :)
<OvenWerks> Like I say, I know a lot of people like it, but a lot of time I don't remember what the actual name is, and categories get me stuff I don't want before what I do want.
<NoklaM> You could simply browse all the Porgrams with a flicker
<NoklaM> no need for scrolling
<NoklaM> people use touch devices, most graphic people have a tablet
<NoklaM> so the flicker motion is natural to them
<OvenWerks> categories do not tell me what applications I have that I don't know about yet either.
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: ya, lots of people do that, but I find it slow. A step back from command line
<OvenWerks> maybe I am just old and entrenched :)
<NoklaM> Well tbh If people ar eto get intrested in Studio a) it has to look descent(looks sell it) b) it has to step away from CLI unless nessecary
<OvenWerks> Also I don't have anyway of "flicking", just mouse and keyboard, no touch... whatever.
<NoklaM> You hold and drag
<NoklaM> and release
<sakrecoer_> cute icon tho
<OvenWerks> I was not suggesting CLI stuff, I think the menu is way ahead of any of them.
<sakrecoer_> oh. sorry.. my irssi session was scrolled way up
<OvenWerks> I use a launchbar for things I use all the time anyway. but a menu is fastest for finding occasional use stuff.
<sakrecoer_> i see a big terminal over the desktop
<NoklaM> sakrecoer_, it's just a semi transparent place to store the icons concept
<sakrecoer_> yes, the wifi winner guy is the cute icon i was refering to
<NoklaM> hehe i got of some random website
<NoklaM> Just throwing in a concept
<NoklaM> Personally i think that the menu stuff is 80s 90s thinking great times but they're far away behind us
<OvenWerks> However, having said all that. All these DE's can be set the way I want them anyway. So I don't care that much what gets used in the end. And I feel that if someone is using Studio in Unity, they don't want a menu anyway.
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: menus are for work. They were conceived when computers were work machines. Many computers are entertainment now and only use three or four applications for everything many people want to do.
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: Studio is meant to be a development platform for artistic kinds of things.
<sakrecoer_> where are all the icons stored OvenWerks ?
<OvenWerks> So the kind of naivgation that is appropriate may not be what the vaerage phone has.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: we have very few icons.
<OvenWerks> I think the menu icons are in the -menu meta.
<OvenWerks> (package)
<OvenWerks> there is an icon package, but I am not sure what is in there.
<NoklaM> I think i have it not sure where i got it from tho
<NoklaM> Going back to the topic of menus
<sakrecoer_> so, every app in the menu uses the icon their respective dev is shipping?
<NoklaM> Artistic people are usualy the ones employing new fancy technologies
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: sort of. icon themes inherit other themes.
<NoklaM> and a work environment doesn't have to be old-tested technology, look at the likes of Google their companies culture is difrent and productivity is top notch(just saying) they don't employ old buearocratic standards
<NoklaM> but then again I'm not a designer yet alone a progammer to implement this so just throwing in ideas
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: in a perfect world, I would be able to type 2 or three charactors in a search and on the screen would be the app I was looking for. So far I have not had that experience with any search based application finder.
<sakrecoer_> i like it! why not? The question is indeed, how but not only. It is also how long and buy who..
<NoklaM> I seen it work in a html5 overlay
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: The menu icons are in the -menu package.
<NoklaM> That's the idea OvenWerks type 2-3 chars and have adequate programs pop up
<sakrecoer_> technicaly, what NoklaM is showing is easy; on big terminal, with buttons on the side
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: they are like part of that application.
<sakrecoer_> xfce bar on the side of a giant terminal with a nice freefont. :)
<sakrecoer_> but then it becomes desktop design, and not studio production
<sakrecoer_> its better to put those effort in a desktop environement that you think ubuntustudio would want to use
<sakrecoer_> but then again, i'm just thinking loud..
<OvenWerks> If I am doing recording, my desktop (both monitors) is covered. I would have to minimize things to find the search entry... to start a synth for example.
<NoklaM> Not really it's a semi transparent overlay
<NoklaM> No minimizing needed 
<NoklaM> Could be done in HTML5+JS+some CSS
<sakrecoer_> ctrl+t
<OvenWerks> Whisker at least ends up on top of my work and I can type a search _or_ use a menu like system to get what I want
<sakrecoer_> ctrl+alt+t
<sakrecoer_> :)
<NoklaM> This would end up on top of your work, i think you're missing the concept
<sakrecoer_> but there is one core thing about what NoklaM says: we should make terminal sexy :)
<OvenWerks> I wuld already have semitransparent meters on top of my work.
<NoklaM> Not gonna push it but imho with the current looks and usuability  of studio is off putting
<OvenWerks> If it is on top of my work when does the search take over focus from my much more important application?
<OvenWerks> I think that is the idae behind allowing the user to choose a DE at install time.
<NoklaM> That would make the install heavy or reliant on a lot of bandwith
<NoklaM> imho
<sakrecoer_> What do you suggest NoklaM ?
<OvenWerks> For someone editing art would they not want to see the real colours and not something dimmed slightly be an overlay?
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I can agree with that.
<NoklaM> It's not a permanent overlay
<sakrecoer_> no it comes up on a keyboard short cut 
<OvenWerks> ok, hotkey?
<sakrecoer_> yeah hotkey
<sakrecoer_> right?
<NoklaM> You click the current menu button :P
<NoklaM> or use the windows key on keyboard
<sakrecoer_> ah..
<OvenWerks> ok.
<sakrecoer_> but you can put a terminal button under the menu :)
<NoklaM> I'll try and hack a html version of it just to show you lads how that works
<sakrecoer_> and maybe the terminal opens up with basic instruction as wallpaper
<OvenWerks> It is not really a terminal I think. As you type in charactors the display of icons below narrows.
<NoklaM> It's basicly just a "Big Menu of Icons"
<sakrecoer_> yeah! i like the idea! and if you can make it so it everyflavour take it i vote for you!
<NoklaM> It wouldn't really be that much tech in it, as it can be done with simple HTML5 and JS
<sakrecoer_> the ubuntustudio production menu
<OvenWerks> So when the the screen first comes up there are 20 screens of icons below with the first row or two being stuff you use all the time. As you type the icons that don't fit vanish.
<sakrecoer_> but it should really be just a superfancy terminal
<sakrecoer_> with extra sexybuttons
<NoklaM> When the first screen comes up at first use it's A-Z but then it adapts to most used
<NoklaM> Like a quick launch
<NoklaM> lunch*launch i have no ide
<NoklaM> idea
<sakrecoer_> i like everything! 
<sakrecoer_> gnome is very much like you say
<sakrecoer_> i think
<NoklaM> And it's not a giant scroll just pages of programs
<NoklaM> Like a book
<sakrecoer_> you get this overlaying frames with dials
<sakrecoer_> yeah, new scool i like!
<sakrecoer_> i have no idea how but i like
<sakrecoer_> the thing is that it is not at alla that far from what we have now
<sakrecoer_> its just a matter of tuning it right
<sakrecoer_> i seriously think i had a genious strike when i thought of instructive wallpapers in the terminal
<sakrecoer_> it must exist!
<sakrecoer_> haha
<NoklaM> It's similar navigation to a smart phone you got in the pocket you flicker through and I think Android 5.0 has a adapting menu to most used apps
<NoklaM> but not sure do people want to maintain something like that, I know the desktop is a very dodgey topic here
<OvenWerks> I think the idea is tha the DE decides things like how apps are started.
<sakrecoer_> https://www.gnome.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/activities-overview-applications-420x236.png
<OvenWerks> ya gnome and unity are both like that.
<OvenWerks> personally I don't like them at all. But as I said, I just don't think the right way for search to work for me.
<sakrecoer_> personaly, when i boil down the "search" concept, i see a terminal
<OvenWerks> In my experience, I start typing a word to search for for the first two or three letters what I want is there, but not on the home screen, I have to scroll (or flick or whatever) through some pages. By the time I get to the point what I want should be on the home screen .... it vanishes :P
<sakrecoer_> http://sakrecoer.com/Screenshot_2015-12-01_01-40-12.png
<sakrecoer_> but instead of firefox and thunderbird, its ardour and blender gimp and co
<NoklaM> For me personally I'd rather type in 3 letters than go through the same menu day after day just to start an application
<sakrecoer_>  exactly!
<sakrecoer_> ardour be ar-> tab
<NoklaM> Yup tab tab tab enter and done
<sakrecoer_> see, the overlay is just a fancy terminal
<NoklaM> It could be if you program it :P
<sakrecoer_> exactly!
<NoklaM> wish I listened when i done that JS course
<NoklaM> i could hack that in 5 minutes 
<NoklaM> but i didn't listen and it will take me whole night just to get the drop down overley xD
<NoklaM> I have very short attention span
<NoklaM> I some times get distracted mid typing oh look a squirrel 
<NoklaM> brb got to grab a smoke it's been few hours since last one ;/
<sakrecoer_> it think it would be easier to pimp XFCE4 we have, than change DE :)
<NoklaM> Most likely
<sakrecoer_> i think fantsy flashy is personal pimping story. a neutral, boring dekstop is way more average and thus accesible
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: sakrecoer_ :you heard the response already... you developit and maintain it for the next three years.
<sakrecoer_> i think ubuntustudio would be beter of brainstorming how to use the existing tools to educate the user to the terminal aka fancy terminal
<sakrecoer_> pimp the things that are there, to give it a dynamic contemporary look, but keep it neutral and standardized
<NoklaM> CLI is off putting tho i know a dozen people at least who quit Linux in general because they had to findle with CLI
<NoklaM> I don't mind it personally but if i can do something by clicking i skip the CLI stuff
<sakrecoer_> i use the desktop to launch my apps mainly
<sakrecoer_> i could launch them in many ways
<sakrecoer_> but i launch them mostly with buttons i make on the xfce bar
<sakrecoer_> the rest i launch with terminal
<sakrecoer_> filemanaging i use the one included
<sakrecoer_> don't realy know what i wanted to say :)
<NoklaM> This is been bugging me since i started using linux, the desktop distros are meant for dekstops yet they rely so much on CLI, yes powerusers use CLI but not your average Joe
<OvenWerks> just for reference: http://pasteboard.co/2xfmplmn.png
<NoklaM> Maybe that's why Windows and OS X are gaining such momentum while linux stays in  that dark server room where someone fiddles with it from time to time
<sakrecoer_> but are people clicking menus when they draw in gimp?
<OvenWerks> sak are they typing?
<NoklaM> most is done through shortcuts if you know them
<NoklaM> For efficiency 
<OvenWerks> I would not suggest CLI... but to me typing in search terms is the same thing.
<sakrecoer_> google is a fancy terminal
<NoklaM> People are used to searching google is like th emost visited website on the planet
<sakrecoer_> everybody can type
<sakrecoer_> :) best GUI ever: terminal
<OvenWerks> In my desktop image above in the middle is my vertical panel.
<sakrecoer_> haha no but i understand the idea NoklaM sorry, i'm joking a bit
<OvenWerks> Those are the apps I use most. It is also a menu on the right side.
<sakrecoer_> but seriously. lets do it!
<sakrecoer_> i want to try make fancyass terminal
<sakrecoer_> haha
<sakrecoer_> i have to sleep sorry, i get excited and tired at the same time is not good..
<NoklaM> I'm looking through Xfce manuals
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: I might have as many as 10 terminals at once on the same screen...
<OvenWerks> some with tabs.
<sakrecoer_> but imageine the one in the shortcut of ubuntustudio xfce desktop opens up a really cool one, with a nice wallpaper with some help text layedout sexy
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: what you want to do is make a panel plugin
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: what you want to do is a different style of gnome session lens (or unity lens)
<NoklaM> just looking through the documentation
<OvenWerks> Actually KDE has something similar as well
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: if you are doing something for xfce then you need to know GTK quite well.
<NoklaM> I've just noticed that, looks like engyptian hirogplyphs or whatever they are called
<OvenWerks> :)  :)  :)
<sakrecoer_> ? :)
<OvenWerks> I have just started learning FLTK but will switch to AVTK probably if I can figure it out (it is similar)
<NoklaM> I'm bad at code comprehension
<NoklaM> and the xfce wiki is short and full of code that looks like foreign symbols to me
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I found the documentation less than helpful. I had to look through the whiskermenu source code for documentation.
<OvenWerks> I had thought GTK was in c, but I am seeing most of the code for GTK is c++.
<NoklaM> https://github.com/chjj/compton
<NoklaM> could this work?
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: that is not really a graphics tool kit but the layer under it.
<sakrecoer_> i like what the archguys do i think this atracts artists. :D https://i.warosu.org/data/g/img/0439/87/1409990512059.png
<OvenWerks> you would have to make a tookkit on top.
<NoklaM> i keep browsing r/nixporn and thinking how are they doing that hehe
<sakrecoer_> i think its openbox
<sakrecoer_> i searched for battlestation openbox vm
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: May as well use fvwm
<NoklaM> a windowmanager?
<OvenWerks> openbox is yes
<sakrecoer_> nah, i just wanted a fancy pic, so i put a fancy tag, in the fancy google terminal
<sakrecoer_> :D
<sakrecoer_> if NoklaM was refering to "battlestation" ...
<NoklaM> i think it's time learn coding, brb in 5 years when i get enough knowledge to write an overlay xD
<sakrecoer_> or stay arround, plan it up, make it happen :)
<NoklaM> hehe I'll see what's doable
<sakrecoer_> But you might want to talk to the desktop/windowmanagement devlopers if you realy into user interaction. Or to the software devloper of gimp and blender etc..
<OvenWerks> Ya, pretty much. This app is 0% c++ in three or four months: http://www.ovenwerks.net/software/mcpdisp.html
<OvenWerks> it takes midi in and displays it basically
<OvenWerks> That is I started with no c++ and in three months I was able to do this much. The tool kit is FLTK
<NoklaM> hmm, could be a challenge i was looking for
<OvenWerks> I did have c knowledge and have done GUIs with Tk/tcl before
<NoklaM> but the problem is maintaining it for 3 years
<sakrecoer_> No, the problem is finding people to maintin it for 3 years :) you are not alone
<OvenWerks> Yes, it is a long time thing. Programs are like children.
<NoklaM> It's not that I'm afraid over the workload it's just my health could suffer and lets say i wouldn't be able to access or work on it
<NoklaM> In last 8 years i went from working in a shop having normal life to sitting at home wiating for another doctors visit since i got a lot of health complications 
<NoklaM> PTSD, Arthritis, Psychotic Breakdowns + some minor stuff
<NoklaM> but probably will give it a go
<OvenWerks> That is tough
<NoklaM> With arthritis I'm not sure I'll be able to use a keyboard in few years
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I would not make it ubuntustudio specific.
<NoklaM> You mean a seprate project?
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: don't stop moving yur joints... I know from experience.
<NoklaM> hard with agoraphobia but i walk around the house ;/
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: you are making a new DE or at least part of one. It would have wider use than just here.
<NoklaM> True OvenWerks, not sure where to start learning tho for this
<NoklaM> Writing a new DE, big project for a newbie
<NoklaM> expcially with KDE, GNOME and others being there already before me
<NoklaM> s/ex/es
<OvenWerks> Take it in steps.
<NoklaM> I'm looking in to GTK
<NoklaM> I didn't know it has to do anything with gimp
<OvenWerks> Thats were it was started yes.
<OvenWerks> But you see what I mean by something having wider application.
<OvenWerks> Now the linux world is sort of half GTK and half QT
<NoklaM> I just read a debate about QTvsGTK
<OvenWerks> QT is nice for cross platform work.
<NoklaM> I know bitcoin client was written in QT that's how much i know about it
<OvenWerks> QT tends to have gentler upgrade curves.
<NoklaM> So you mean like whole DE from scratch?
<NoklaM> I guess C or C++ would be the language to get to know here
<OvenWerks> What you want to do would be fine as a part of the xfce panel.
<OvenWerks> I would go c++.
<OvenWerks> c++ forces the programer to do things right :)
<NoklaM> C++ is used in genral programming for Linux right? Like the kernel
<OvenWerks> Having something not compile with a message that says line * is wrong is much easier to debug than a crash.
<OvenWerks> The kernel is c
 * OvenWerks has to cook for da kids.
<NoklaM> Have fun :)
<NoklaM> I'll look in to C++ in the mean time
<sakrecoer_> me too i'm off! read you soon!
<NoklaM> see you sakrecoer_  good night mate
<NoklaM> bbl
<NoklaM> Just had a look at KDE & Gnome both have the feature i was talking about, no need to develop :P
<zequence> Noskcaj: If you want to begin learning programming on Linux, I highly recommend starting with python
<zequence> c++ is a monster of a language, which you can do a lot of stuff with, but depending on the way you learn, you might drown in the details for the first couple of years, not really learning how to use it
<zequence> The kernel is mostly done in C
<zequence> You might be surprised though how many applications in Linux are done in python
<zequence> Sorry, NosklaM. But he's not here anymore :)
<flocculant> :D
<flocculant> he's keen though :)
<zequence> That he is!
<flocculant> I'm sure Ross is happy :)
<flocculant> bbl 
<NoklaM> o/
<NoklaM> whole night fighting with PSU noise, about 10 minutes ago I found the silicone lubricant xD
<NoklaM> btw is the test release building today?
<zequence> NoklaM: There was a dependency conflict with the last build. Something not introduced by us, but could be caused by the combination of packages in our seeds (which our meta packages are based on)
<zequence> I'll start by looking if we have any of those packages in our seeds, and which packages depend on them.
<NoklaM> ah I see, I failed(miss clicked) to report a bug on startup of the system
<zequence> Going to the "office". bbl
<NoklaM> see you zequence 
<zequence> Yeez. The ubuntustudio-default-settings branch is a mess. My fault. I always forget to push changes before I upload.
<NoklaM> I managed to get that machine i was talking about yesterday working not sure tho will the 256Mb shared memory be enough
<NoklaM> no dedicated gfx :(
<zequence> Sure. Sounds like more than you need for general use
<NoklaM> Can't wait to test it
<NoklaM> I'll be able to migrate to a stable build on the main pc
<zequence> OvenWerks: I reverted the changes on the menu. I think you are skipping many steps before doing changes like that. First, if you want to make any sort of changes, you know we need to discuss things, create a blueprint, or whatever. Then, we implement.
<zequence> Our branches are not for testing. If you want to do testing, do it locally. If you want to share your results, put it in a PPA
<zequence> When I synced us with Xubuntu, that was not testing. It was something that has been planned for at least a year.
<zequence> Just to clarify, I reverted the menu additions to -default-settings.
<NoklaM> So is studio a Xubuntu derivative?
<zequence> You could say so. Though, we use our own kernel and a couple of other settings.
<NoklaM> Ah i see
<NoklaM> Eh i just found a massive issue, no second keyboard/mouse or a PC port on TV
<zequence> Ever since we moved away from Gnome2, the desktop has been based on Xubuntu's. Just that no one has been properly maintaining it.
<NoklaM> I would do it zequence trust me, if i had the know how
<zequence> OvenWerks: Though a bit late because of all this business with PR, Project lead vote, etc, I will begin feature definition discussions this week.
<NoklaM> but I went through 10 chapters of a python book last night, at chapter 10 I was amaze/had no idea what just happened there inthat book
<zequence> NoklaM: Since we seem to be getting a bit more traffic here now, and this is supposed to be a dedicated channel for development, I would suggest using an off-topic channel for these kind of topics. #xubuntu-offtopic is nice, since you'll find our Xubuntu friends there.
<zequence> I'm there, but the others may not be
<zequence> (in the studio team, I mean)
<NoklaM> ah ok sorry about the off-topic
<zequence> No problem. It's impossible to avoid to some extent.
<zequence> We usually don't have a lot of traffic on our channels, so there has not been a need for our own off-topic channel. But, that could be arranged too.
<zequence> NoklaM: Are you on a studio system right now?
<NoklaM> yes
<zequence> NoklaM: Try this command in a terminal: dpkg -s oss-compat
<NoklaM> dpkg-query: package 'oss-compat' is not installed and no information is available
<zequence> Ok, thought so
<zequence> It's what is causing our build problem
<NoklaM> the lack of it or the need of it?
<zequence> oss-compat conflicts with osspd. We don't want oss-compat at all
<zequence> The latest build tries to add it
<NoklaM> ah i see
<NoklaM> Is the screen flicker I'm seeing when scrolling an Studio thing or LXDE?
<zequence> oss-compat however suggests osspd. Seems like a packaging problem.
<zequence> It's not studio in either case
<NoklaM> eh it's driving me nuts
<NoklaM> sorry for off-topic/ How do I revert back a driver instalation
<zequence> NoklaM: What kind of driver?
<zequence> Usually, you just uninstall the package you previously installed.
<NoklaM> I installed the ATI driver from the package manager
<NoklaM> Then unistalled but my video setting won't go back to 1920x1080 instead of 1024x768
<zequence> Perhaps you have some custom X11 settings?
<zequence> Check for /usr/etc/X11/xorg.conf, or files in a possible dir /usr/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d
<zequence> Though, no, you should have no image at all, come to think of it
<zequence> Try to use the gui in "Software Sources", the tab about additional drivers
<zequence> Ok, new meta (though oss-compat was not in it, as it seems). oss-compat is blacklisted in our seeds. Hopefully that fixes it.
<zequence> ..and that's all I have time for right now. Time for lunch, and then it's recording time!
<NoklaM> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade?
<OvenWerks> zequence: I will leave the look and feel to others. No worries. My personal opinion is that a PPA is a way of not getting things tested or looked at. However, more discussion on this channel has also pointed out to me that DE look and feel preferences are highly subjective... and what works well for me is unexpected by the new "it should work like my phone" user.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I would suggest that xubuntu is ahead of us there.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am sorry to get cross purposes with you, when I saw that you were keeping /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio I assumed that any changes in there were fair game. Once one thing is in there, it doesn't really matter how many are we are already departed from using xubuntu as a base and would have to have something in there for each DE.
<OvenWerks> zequence: That is why I suggest just removing that. It would be nice to have a custom backdrop... but in the end that is only the live ISO and first install. The user will probably change the backdrop within the first week.
<OvenWerks> The menu icon might be changed in consultation with xubuntu to distributer-logo which should not (IMO) be a part of the icon theme.
<OvenWerks> zequence: do be aware that there is some feeling in this channel at least, that the live ISO/default install should have a unique look that says this is Ubuntustudio.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am not sure I care. We are moving very quickly to Studio being an add-on to other flavours. maybe that is good or not. I really don't know.
<OvenWerks> zequence: There is a feeling in the audio community that ubuntustudio is just xubuntu with added applications.
<OvenWerks> I have heard the comment that there are no settings changes to make audio work right.
<OvenWerks> This is of course not true, but having no unique look and feel adds to that perception. -controls on the other hand helps people know there is more to the distro.
<OvenWerks> I would suggest that there be more emphasis in our PR to the settings changes that make Studio better than other ubuntu flavours for audio use.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-12-02
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: interesting thoughts. i think it would be awsome if ubuntustudio could become an add on for any falvour. But it is good to ship a DE that is a bit customized. Telling a noob, to install a new OS and then install an add on to get started being creative, is much more complicated then telling the n00b to install the OS and get started creating...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: Ah, I this stuff is more complex than it seems. :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: Installing and go can happen too. The install of a flavour + Studio need not be any harder than just installing a flavour. We have already proved that.
<sakrecoer_> that is excellent! and int that case, i agree, emphasis on PR will be required...
<OvenWerks> The difference between xubuntu + Studio metas and ubuntustudio install is actually very small.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: the differences of opinion you have seen are how much the DE should be customized to make creation easier. The result of our exploration of people's opinions just in the small number of people who have been "vocal" has been that different people find different uses.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: the PR thing is different again. It is a problem regardless of how we set the DE up.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: we do need to deal with the perception that Studio is just a buntu with extra packages.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: I think we could also go farther semi-automatically setting more of the system setting for people.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: In general, I do not like USB as a transport for low latency audio. It is full of pit falls that OSx avoids with proper HW design and M$ hides by not telling you how bad the latency is. (or when you have xruns)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: but... it is what most audio interfaces are right now.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: It would be worth while keeping track of which irqs are being used for audio devices... how many USB devices are on each USB bus... and having user feedback suggesting that moving a USB interface to another usb plug, not using a hub, moving the mouse... etc. etc. would improve things.
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: the PR teams needs to be synchronised and briefed about these topics...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: if we are starting jack at session start, we know which interface is the main one and can set rtirq's priorities line up to favour that interface... as an example
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: yes.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: and we should be keeping a list of system settings we do to optimize things so pr can include them every time.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: just as an interesting side topic... it is interesting that the odroid chooses ubuntumate to pre install. http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G143703355573 They just call it "Ubuntu", but on a screen shot: http://dn.odroid.com/homebackup/201511/VU7inchwXU4.jpg
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: nope one of the other screen shots looks Lubuntu: http://dn.odroid.com/homebackup/201511/7inchMTdisplaym.jpg
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: my point being that both are very conservative DEs. Mate is the old gnome DE.
<sakrecoer_> it looks like one is xfce and the other lxe
<sakrecoer_> lxde even
<sakrecoer_> I think conservative is good, ok, it will not look amazing to fancy artist, but it will be intuitive enough for beginner.
<OvenWerks> xfce was modeled after gnome2, Mate is a fork of gnome2.
<OvenWerks> so they both look the same
<sakrecoer_> mate, is that the same as LXDE?
<OvenWerks> no
<sakrecoer_> ok.. i see now
<sakrecoer_> is it what mint uses?
<OvenWerks> lxde is based on openbox with a lower cpu/memory footprint.
<sakrecoer_> it looks very much like a merge of XFCE and unity, but simplified
<OvenWerks> Mint is a different animal again.
<OvenWerks> mint was based on gnome 2 moved to mate and then to a modified gnome3.
<sakrecoer_> ok. sorry, help me focus.... are we still thinking about using something else than XFCE?
<sakrecoer_> i have a hard time understanding why it is important to do more customization to the DE than wallpaper and the icon-set...
<sakrecoer_> and color code
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: I think that because we have interested parties that work on both xubuntu as well as Studio and because xfce gives a polished yet understandable interface we will stay there
<sakrecoer_> i think XFCE is the perfect compromise between modern and old
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: also we know that xfce works well with audio stuff... that is it doesn't interfere as much as some other DEs do.
<sakrecoer_> i'd rather see ubuntustduio have a customized theme, than having a custom DE...
<sakrecoer_> sorry OvenWerks , i'm reading :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: we don't have the personel for a custom DE
<sakrecoer_> exactly!
<sakrecoer_> eventualy, helping the XFCE, LXDE, or mate devs push the envelope of their product will be more productive for us, than taking on the task to maintain our own...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: it will be interest to see where the qt version od lxde goes (qxde?)
<sakrecoer_> yeah... i have a good feeling about qt...
<OvenWerks> No, I have pulse set up so it sees no alsa devices at all. pulse can only see what jack sees.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: so with the same setup in 16.04 you would see 6 sets of ports at boot instead of only 4.
<sakrecoer_> ok... thats sounds excellent!
<OvenWerks> That seems like a waste of resources if they could be shown if they are connected to jack or not then that would be better. In the AoIP world, this kind of thinking is already there.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: in the AoIP world, all possible audio connections on the local network would show up in the connection dialog, but the actual network connect only takes place if the user wants to use it.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: this does not have a need for changing jack, but rather creating a new connection application.
<sakrecoer_> AoIP... audio over IP right?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: yes
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: AVB, AES67, etc.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: even AoIP that is at the other end of a sound card (PCIe or USB)
<sakrecoer_> hm... you are approaching the limits of my ignorant savant audio knowledge base :D
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: both OSx and Win have that... though it is unique to the transport not generic... there is such a thing for AVB on Linux, but it is CLI (and experimental)
<sakrecoer_> ok... 
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: it should be transpart=ent to the user anyway.
 * OvenWerks wanders off to spend time with Yf.
<sakrecoer_> enjoy OvenWerks read you later!
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think you missed this image of my system after boot with auto jack as it sits so far: http://picpaste.com/pics/qjackctl-multicards-tiw1pKQd.1449073497.png
<NoklaM> Is there a virtualbox image of the 16.04 or do i have to install it manualy on to vbox?
<flocculant> install it onto vbox 
<NoklaM> Lost all files, was working on one, decided to install ATI drivers to get rid of flicker/screen tearing /fail
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-12-03
<zequence> OvenWerks: Sorry, was away for most of the last day.
<zequence> OvenWerks: On audio community and their views on Ubuntu Studio - you know as well as I do, that most of it is just ignorant talk. Even many who should know better tend to repeat incorrect information.
<zequence> OvenWerks: You are right, we should emphasize what makes Ubuntu Studio unique, to enlighten our users.
<zequence> I'm going to announce the candidate procedure
<zequence> January may be too soon for a vote, but I'm setting the month January as a preliminary period for the vote
<OvenWerks> zequence: I agree about the ignorant talk. Much of it is based on vanilla with a generic kernel.
 * OvenWerks wonders if blacklisting oss-compat will stop osspd from fully installing.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Hmm, well, that would be anti-climatic.
<zequence> I will remove it from blacklists after the build, which should be any moment now.
<zequence> Ok, worked.
<zequence> actually, the meta refused to build, so not sure what's going on. Will check again tomorrow.
<OvenWerks> zequence: yup new build, zsync - ing.
<OvenWerks> says 81.3% done.
<zequence> I haven't updated -default-settings with the icon change, but will do tomorrow
<zequence> Think the kernel version for the next LTS coincides with a realtime patch, so that would be an opportuntiy to add one to the main archive, and keep it updated in the same way as with -lowlatency
<zequence> Though, I doubt Canonical devs are as thrilled about that as some of us would be :)
<zequence> Also, we would need to make sure it was really worth it
<zequence> krytarik: I noticed when I updated the meta last, that ubuntustudio-desktop-core was added to a few arches, but it was strange, since they seemed to have been already before
<zequence> So, your observation seemed to be correct
<flocculant> OvenWerks: basically - someone did the testcase bugs a long long time ago - if you seen one that studio really doesn't use - untag studio and it'll get missed
<flocculant> and 1 less from the list makes life easier
<OvenWerks> flocculant: I thought it was on the Studio list Sorry. But as I noticed it was a different package I was thinking of with a slightly different name. Tyhe one pointed at looks useful.... if I knew what to do with it. One of our graphic artists will do better. (The other one was audio based)
<flocculant> aah ok
<flocculant> OvenWerks: I'm subscribed to the manual test project bugs :)
<flocculant> and I'm susbcribed to the studio dev list too - no worries, just explaining the enormous list of bugs there :p
<OvenWerks> flocculant: Ya, I understand... there are only so many hours in the day too :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-12-04
<OvenWerks> I had to pre-format my partition again to install.
<OvenWerks> There is an error messgae that gets repeated a bunch of times at session start too. I will have to reboot to see it.
<OvenWerks> ... ok reboot
<OvenWerks> zequence: xsession errors (.xsession-errors) has:
<OvenWerks> openConnection: connect: No such file or directory
<OvenWerks> cannot connect to brltty at :0
<OvenWerks> Service 'org.kde.kaccessibleapp' does not exist.
<OvenWerks>  then the next two lines about 10 times:upstart: upstart-event-bridge main process (1358) terminated with status 1
<OvenWerks> upstart: upstart-event-bridge main process ended, respawning
<OvenWerks> followed by :upstart: upstart-event-bridge respawning too fast, stopped
<OvenWerks> (which makes sense)
<OvenWerks> zequence: I would suggest kaccessibleapp is a part/dependency of krita maybe? One of the kde apps anyway.
<OvenWerks> brltty I think is a device. Someone last cycle was talking about adding accessable options. maybe it was not finished right or is still missing something.
<OvenWerks> /var/log/syslog looks sick. Tons of:
<OvenWerks> Dec  3 17:06:34 studio1604 ureadahead[250]: ureadahead:..: Ignored relative path
<OvenWerks> Dec  3 17:06:34 studio1604 ureadahead[250]: ureadahead:m_can: Ignored relative p
<OvenWerks> ath
<OvenWerks> replace the m_cn with many other things. I have screens and screens of it
<OvenWerks> zeq after all those screens I have 4 (one per core) "Cut here" sections with:
<OvenWerks> Dec  3 17:07:08 studio1604 kernel: [   93.468330] WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 904 at /build/linux-26_gwp/linux-4.2.0/drivers/gpu/drm/i915/intel_display.c:12328 check_crtc_state+0x2c5/0x440 [i915]()
<OvenWerks> Dec  3 17:07:08 studio1604 kernel: [   93.468332] pipe state doesn't match!
<OvenWerks> Ah, there it is... on the vterms I see a lot of lines like:
<OvenWerks>  [drm:intel_pipe_config_compare [i915]] *ERROR* mismatch in dpll_hw_state.wrpll (expected 0xb018080f, found 0x00000000)
<OvenWerks> no not quite the same, but very similar. If I log out then in I get more of them. I think it is mess from upstart to systemd, but not sure.
<OvenWerks> everything still seems to work though.
<OvenWerks> There does seem to be no specimen-gnome in our iso
<zequence> ubuntustudio-meta did not build for arch s390x. Not sure anyone with that arch will miss it, but it's happening at least once a day.
<zequence> Besides, the arch is not enabled in the meta. I'll let it be until monday. If the problem persists, I'll ask Ubuntu devs for some clues.
<flocculant> OvenWerks: I invalid'd that testcase bug btw
<zequence> I'm adding a new project for us. Calling it ubuntustudio-dev-tools with a repo with the same name
<zequence> Going to use git instead of bzr for this one
<zequence> Going to put a toolin there, which is not finished yet, which lets you search for packages from any Ubuntu or Debian release, and outputting the information in either standard, moin or html format
<zequence> Adding markdown later too
<zequence> Calling it apt-search
<zequence> It has some ugly code in it, and is far from efficient, but I'm already using it for some things, so might as well put it out there for others to take a look at
<OvenWerks> flocculant: I think that is best.
<OvenWerks> zequence: On github then?
<OvenWerks> zequence: found it.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yeah, LP has git support, and I'm pretty sure a lot of folks will want to move to it later on.
<OvenWerks> zequence: remembering the different commands from one to the other makes for mistakes. But my IDE has git tools so it is easy to commit.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm really more used to git myself. It is what the Canonical kernel devs use, since Linux is all administrered in git. Also, I use it for all of my own projects, and let's face it, it's everywhere these days.
<OvenWerks> I use git for all my own stuff as well.
<zequence> Ok, then I know exactly what you mean by confusing the commands :)
<zequence> There are some big file applications with git as well. Haven't yet learned to use any of them, but thinking it might be a good thing to have for any kind of big size media production, like movies and recordings
<OvenWerks> There are some DAWs that use git for snapshots (I am thinking nama is one)
<OvenWerks> zequence: I did some nondaw testing a few days ago. They have an import from Ardour project function, so I just used that for speed.
<OvenWerks> I would not recommend it at all. On import it does not resample if required. But beyond that setting up two applications and manually connecting them via qjackctl (only 11 tracks) was a pain. What was even more painful was to do a save/quit/reopen and find out that the connections are not saved... One has to set up yet another application to do that. I guess once one has set up templates the workflow would improve.
<zequence> I have yet to try any of the non stuff
<zequence> I'm using ardour currently to record. Finding the calf plugins very useful. Haven't really started to look what else I can use yet
<OvenWerks> To be honest, non has been well done and does work. It could use a lot more love though. only one developer so far as I know.
<zequence> That guy male, isn't it?
<zequence> It's incredible what one person can achieve. I find it hard to even get small details done
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have found the calf plugins to be less than reliable (at least in 1404)
<OvenWerks> The reverb can have 1000/1 gain and some of the controls can't be automated on the eq
<zequence> I'm using 15.10. No automation at all. Haven't really gotten to mixing yet. Just worked on a preliminary mix for the drums
<OvenWerks> q10eq is nice, but the x42 fil4 is better again.
<zequence> EQ, compressors and limiters all work well
<zequence> Oh?
<zequence> I will need to try it
<OvenWerks> x42 fil4 is based on fons ladspa fil4 but has added high and low shlves
<zequence> Ah
<zequence> NoklaM: Nice to see you are still with us. It really is rare for anyone to show up the way you did.
<zequence> Also for someone to get things done as quickly as you did. Really, really rare :)
<OvenWerks> I am still looking for a good SW guitar amp. Guitarix is nice but the gui in the plugin affects the host's colours too making them unusable
<OvenWerks> (this may be fixed by now)
<zequence> Last time I tested rackarakk, I was having problems finding the actual amp
<zequence> I've tried both, and they do work, but I always prefer a real amp
<zequence> I only have about 9 square meters in my studio, and not much of it is isolated, so I have a lot of bad resonance, especially in the low frequencies, which makes it difficult with the real amp sound.
<OvenWerks> I don't really have one right now. Best I could do is use my sans amp through a clean amp to a 12inch speaker
<zequence> But, I'm going to insulate the room next year. Found some really nice tips on youtube
<zequence> If only there had been youtube when I greq up
<zequence> I have two. One cheap Peavy Supreme amp. It works, but it's not the best.
<zequence> It's extremely versitile. So, you can do almost anything with it.
<zequence> Even has a builtin compressor
<zequence> The other is a bit of a Rolls Royce. A Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier.
<zequence> Just bought new rectifier tubes. Think that's why the fuse blew :P.
<zequence> Still learning about tubes
<OvenWerks> I am hoping to build one of these: http://ax84.com/4-4-0.html
<zequence> Nice
<zequence> I'm really into building my own stuff too. Started collecting schematics a few years ago, and even bought parts for a simple beginner project, but haven't really gotten anywhere since.
<zequence> But, I'm guessing you already have a bit of experience in that kind of thing?
<OvenWerks> I have not done much with tubes yet. BUt have done video, digital and audio circuitry
<zequence> The only thing I've done when it comes to electronics is soldering a bunch of cables, pretty much. Got some ok tools for that a few years back, and did some work on a studio we used to have.
<OvenWerks> In the 90s I built a midi filter and a midi switcher.
<zequence> That's very cool :)
<OvenWerks> I've put together a few mixers (generally passive) as well.
<OvenWerks> I needed the filter for my drum pads because it came with synth sounds on the non-drum channels.
<OvenWerks> bad synth sounds...
<OvenWerks> these days I wouldn't use the drum sounds either.
<OvenWerks> But back then the computer was only good for sequencing so all my sounds came from some kind of HW synth.
<zequence> Ataris are still pretty decent sequencers, compared to a lot of PCs
<OvenWerks> Yes I have an old megaST.
<OvenWerks> I also have a QX7
<zequence> I have a hybrid. Think it's 1024 + 2048, or 512 + 1024. Haven't used it much. But, my cousins father who gave it to me was using it as his PC back in the late 90s.
<zequence> He was surfing the internet with it. Can you imagine?
<OvenWerks> I used one track of my Fostex r8 for sync to run the sequencer. I set the R8 channel 8 about 10db down just for that.
<OvenWerks> The ST was a quite a good machine.
<OvenWerks> I learned c on it.
<zequence> Is that an ADAT? The Fostex?
<OvenWerks> Use the zosobon compiler with was mostly K&R.
<OvenWerks> The R8 is a 1/4 inch open real 8 track.
<zequence> This is the youtube channel I was talking about. A very generous person, as far as informing people on his skills https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-f76NUQN5M-Z0cd0MOP5xw
<zequence> Ah
<zequence> I've never used one of those. Only recorded on one, once. An 8-track, that is.
<OvenWerks> I never use it. The tape costs too much and goes bad too fast.
<OvenWerks> I did a few projects on it back then, but I would choose digital by choice now.
<OvenWerks> Nice link, I'll have to spend some time watching.
<zequence> Sometime around 1996 our band had the opportunity to record at this great studio. We had one hour to lay three tracks, and mix them down. During the mix, the mixer guy and his assisten were standing over the mute buttons, and levelers at the mixer, making sure everything went right.
<OvenWerks> mixing is a talent too.
<zequence> They probably had automation, but it took time to program that
<zequence> So, they did that manually
<zequence> We got the master on a DAT tape
<OvenWerks> My masters all ended up on cassete back then.
<zequence> It's hard to imagine doing that now :D
<zequence> Today you can do better almost, just recoring in your bedroom
<zequence> Virtual amps, drum samplers, and all those soft FX
<OvenWerks> I think I remastered the demo I did for a friend from 8 track to CD pretty early on.
<zequence> Before personal CD burners?
<OvenWerks> I would do the whole thing differently now even with the same equipment. I have learned a lot since.
<OvenWerks> it would have been a computer based burner.
<zequence> Dinner time here. The chicken is ready. Suitable friday meal.
<OvenWerks> Timne for breakfast here
<zequence> Haha
<NoklaM> Hey o/ sorry was away for a minute
<NoklaM> or actually half a day and forgot to log out ;/
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: no problem, Someof us just leave ourselves on all the time.
<OvenWerks> Then look at the backlog.
 * OvenWerks is at UTC -0700
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: it is not uncommon to leave a comment where the person I am talking to is asleep... they may answer while I am gone too.
<NoklaM> Ah the time diference
<NoklaM> It can be annoying
<NoklaM> is the latest build compiling?
<OvenWerks> It did yesterday, I installed the ISO here.
<NoklaM> Ah wicked I'll be Installing shortly(after i find a second mouse and keyboard)
<NoklaM> Unless a find a way to install studio and run it headless 
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I have a 2TB drive, I made a pile of 20G partitions just for test installs.
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: ssh -Y
<NoklaM> does the -Y give audio and video?
<OvenWerks> Not sure if that will work from an ISO boot.
<OvenWerks> Audio would still be on the machine. But video can be on the machine you are logging from.
<NoklaM> Bought a used WD mycloud 2TB for backups of files I'm working on after the "i broke it" moment
<OvenWerks> For remote login with ssh -Y, I like to run xfce4-pannel with dbuslaunch.
<OvenWerks> That way I have a menu on the remote machine.
<NoklaM> I was thinking i could also do Virtualization 
<NoklaM> But ESXi does not want to work with a Sempton CPU
<OvenWerks> I always install to HW
<NoklaM> OvenWerks: i got a dedicated pc for it the testing of Studio, just no way of actually accessing it
<NoklaM> aka i have no second mouse ;/
<OvenWerks> that why I put more partitions on my main machine.
<OvenWerks> The last batch of mice I bought were $3 each at my local dollar store. I think I paid $3 each for my keyboards too.
<NoklaM> hmm, could do that, but it's only a 120GB SSD and it's 60% full
<NoklaM> Yea i know hehe they're dirt cheap but it's also a space on desk issue
<NoklaM> between a graphics tablet a keyboard and a mice there is not much space left 
<OvenWerks> SWitch box
<NoklaM> I'll google that
<OvenWerks> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVM_switch
<NoklaM> ah yes, thanks
<NoklaM> that would solve the problem
<OvenWerks> I have an old mechanical one, but most now have logic in them.
<OvenWerks> Wow, some of the new ones include audio too.
<NoklaM> yea was just looking at one with that feature
<OvenWerks> Anyway they start at about $12 and go up.
<NoklaM> I'm looking at amazon now
<NoklaM> some nice belkin ones but 31GBP
<NoklaM> i think I'll pay that for the switch on desk alone
 * OvenWerks is realizing he hasn't used a kvm since the switch from ps/2 to USB for mouse/kbd.
<OvenWerks> I actually picked my new MB to allow the continued use of ps/2 mouse/kbd to keep that junk off my USB lines :)
<OvenWerks> Also my keyboard is old enough to have a switch on the bottom for A or X. (late 80s)
<OvenWerks> It needs an adapter to even work with ps/2
<NoklaM> oh wow
<OvenWerks> It has a nice feel though... real switches.
<OvenWerks> It was a "cheap" $60 KB at the time.
<NoklaM> I got a Logitech keyboard with a LCD that's programmable, it conflicts with my motherboard and i can't boot with it hooked up
<NoklaM> Mobo so picky on hardware i plug in
<NoklaM> You get a mechanical "beast" for that price noe o.O
<NoklaM> now*
<OvenWerks> Ya, I will probably get another when this gives up.
<NoklaM> I might never xD it's pre 1990 technology, it's made to last not to brake :P
<NoklaM> s/I/It
<OvenWerks> My space bar is going funny. Maybe I just need to take it apart and reassemble it.
<NoklaM> Probably just dirt stuck there
<NoklaM> ok ordering a kvm has to wait(30Â£ minimum order for Ireland)
<OvenWerks> What part of Ireland?
<NoklaM> South :P
<NoklaM> Connacht
<OvenWerks> My family name is from Kilkenny and my Mother is from Dunegal
<OvenWerks> Not sure of spelling...
<OvenWerks> But I was born in Canada
<NoklaM> Donegal is miles away, but i used to have girlfriend in Carlow which is just 10km of Kilkenny and used to go there a lot
<NoklaM> (because they brew beer there)
<OvenWerks> I have never been
<NoklaM> Beautiful city
<NoklaM> especially the city center
<OvenWerks> I like Irish beer... dark in general
<NoklaM> My favourite Smithick's is brewed there
<NoklaM> w*
<NoklaM> i eat letter like food
 * OvenWerks likes some taste along with the achohol
<NoklaM> s
<NoklaM> But defo if you have time visit kilkenny 
<NoklaM> worth it
<OvenWerks> Time is not the problem so much as cost.
<NoklaM> Hehe was about to say that the cost could be big
<NoklaM> A pint is nearly 5euro in a pub these days
<OvenWerks> My wife wants me to visit manilla first
<NoklaM> Philipines?
<OvenWerks> Ya
<NoklaM> I have a friend who's a doctor, phatologist, he's working there for WHO
<OvenWerks> Some parts are ok, but where my sister in law lives they seem to be afraid to go out the door almost.
<NoklaM> Wow, seem rough
<NoklaM> seems*
<NoklaM> Got to make a offtopic channel
<NoklaM> so much to talk to not related to Ubuntu STudio xD
<OvenWerks> Hardware is
<NoklaM> true
<NoklaM> Have to find a way to do this without a KVM
<NoklaM> for untill Wednesday
<OvenWerks> I have also installed ISOs on a USB drive, even a second thumb drive.
<OvenWerks> 16Gb thumb drive works ok.
<OvenWerks> (slow though)
<NoklaM> Unless I just switch the OS to the testing iso
<NoklaM> and not mess with ATI drivers this time
<OvenWerks> I don't, I tend to loose too much.
<NoklaM> Got a backup NAS now so should be ok
<OvenWerks> Can you run off of it?
<NoklaM> Nope it has a proprietery system on it
<OvenWerks> You could have the /boot/ on a USB stick
<flocculant> NoklaM: for the record I've been using the dev release since the day after 15.10 was released and it's not any less stable than 15.10 imo (xubuntu) just have a small other install just in case
<NoklaM> ah cool flocculant, i might just switch 
<OvenWerks> flocculant: I agree, I have done some dev work in 1604 and everything has worked well
<flocculant> obviously it could all go horribly wrong tomorrow - but I suspect not
<NoklaM> I had it before you see and messed with ATI drivers, that didn't go well, actually I had to format and reinstall the only system i had on hand
<OvenWerks> flocculant: if you switch to vterm 1 do you see a bunch of error messages in xubuntu?
<flocculant> NoklaM: just don't run with -proposed enabled 
<OvenWerks>  :)
<NoklaM> I kinda backup a clean 15.10 image incase i have to dd a new usb
<flocculant> OvenWerks: having trouble logging into vt ... 
<OvenWerks> ctl/alt/F1 shouldn't have to even log in.
<OvenWerks> With my 1604 install I have 8 to 10 lines of errors.
<OvenWerks> (all the same)
<flocculant> OvenWerks: no errors
<flocculant> so this is bizarre
<flocculant> password has numbers in it - keypad numbers not being accepted in vt
<OvenWerks> Could be HW, it is DRM related.
<OvenWerks> shouldn't be
<OvenWerks> keypad numbers _are_ different
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> so had to numlock off and on then they work
<flocculant> OvenWerks: anyway ... no errors there at all 
<NoklaM> shouldn't that be the oposite? Numlock turning on numbers?
<flocculant> OvenWerks: see some on .xsession-errors though
<flocculant> http://pastebin.com/KRx2rsbb
<flocculant> OvenWerks: I think I saw you talking about similar
<OvenWerks> flocculant: Ya.
<flocculant> pretty much seen those in xsession errors for ages - back in 15.10 at least
<OvenWerks> Those are different. They are to do with asseccability I think we are missing a package
<flocculant> looking back you were talking about br1tty 
<OvenWerks> Ya
<flocculant> maybe krita ~*shrug* 
<OvenWerks> I can't rememebr if we install krita or it gets pulled in by something else
<OvenWerks> But we have krita in 1404 and I don't have those messages.
<flocculant> no idea - I have enough trouble trying to understand xubuntu :p
<flocculant> right 
<OvenWerks> Someone was adding accessable stuff 1504 or 1510, it maybe that is missing something.
<flocculant> install kaccessible ... After this operation, 293 MB of additional disk space will be used 
<flocculant> got to love using kde outside kde :p
<NoklaM> I'm back, now the menu changed, it's the standard XFCE thing, can't find the resolution settings :(
<NoklaM> found it, wasn't to obvious, that icon either needs to be a sub menu or literally 2x the size
<OvenWerks> It isn't obvious no.
<NoklaM> I was looking in, System menu
<OvenWerks> I have to use it every time because mirrored displays are not much use.
<OvenWerks> settings
<OvenWerks> The way xubuntu has done the settings menu, it pulls in anything with category setting and system.
<OvenWerks>  Some I agree with and some not.
<NoklaM> The mnu it self is fine i guess, but the icon, even at 1368xWhatever  i missed it completely
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I prefer the standard menu myself, but if we want to do less work we just use what xubuntu has.
<OvenWerks> It is real easy to switch anyway.
<NoklaM> Is it possible to merge the Icon functionality in to the System section of the menu?
<NoklaM> Or do i have to go to xfce guys to fix it?
<OvenWerks> Like KDE? Not really unless someone wants to write a plugin.
<NoklaM> That is gonna spark a lot of google searches like "Where are setting in Ubuntu Studio"
 * OvenWerks installs a whiskermenu to look at :)
<OvenWerks> We could add a setting menu item to system submenu.
<NoklaM> \o/
<OvenWerks> I think that xubuntu has a settings menu item, but we decided to just have a settings icon, which works fine in the old menu.
<OvenWerks> I could also add settings to favourites.
<NoklaM> That would be awesome, since 1st thing people do after install is adjust their settings like resolution 
<OvenWerks> Ya, I am trying to think what would be the least "disturbing" to the xubuntu base.
<NoklaM> so whit this vote for project lead, is it always been like that? People are picked every 2 years?
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I am not sure. I started with 1204 ish just doing testing. I think Scott was there longer than two years.
<OvenWerks> I think zequence has been modeling things after xubuntu which seems to work really well. I think there has not really been much organization in place and that putting that there will help ghive Studio new life... which it really needs.
<OvenWerks> I think we need someone who has a good overall vision of what will atract new people to use and contribute to Studio.
<OvenWerks> More of an artist than a coder in my opinion.
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I have been seeing all the things I am missing for the job as we have discussed DE use, backdrop etc. I am somewhat stuck back in fvwm land where so long as it is easy to use I don't care what it looks like.
<OvenWerks> I don't know that I am even able to see what looks good or what is easy for todays people to use.
<OvenWerks> So someone who is willing to learn the tools for uploading etc. even they don't know how to code, but who has a good vision of what will make Studio look "fantastic"... That is what we need.
<OvenWerks> (maybe that should be "Fantastic!")
<NoklaM> Is there like statistic on how many people actually use Studio?
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I do not know.
<OvenWerks> We may have somewhere the possibility to know DL numbers, but those would not say much.
<NoklaM> Ah I see
<NoklaM> was just wondering
<OvenWerks> There are a lot of people who try to run audio applications on Ubuntu vanilla... and fail :) I see them here as well as #ardour
<NoklaM> It's nice to have all th programs at hand, I have no idea about audio but that will probably change once i start messing with the DAW's and learning to sing
<NoklaM> Got to use that AKG michrophone + mixer
<OvenWerks> mixers ae nice to have. Then latency becomes a non-issue
<OvenWerks> Which akg?
<NoklaM> Perception Live p3
<NoklaM> or p3 could be the connectors name
 * OvenWerks has an AT2020, peavey 520TN (2), a realistic cheap sure knock off, a PZM and a hand built something :)
<OvenWerks> p3 is a dynamic then. Should be easy to deal with.
<NoklaM> I seen the AT2020, I had a plan to but it before when contemplated streaming games
<NoklaM> but /buy
<OvenWerks> The at2020 is sort of the bottom of worth buying condensers
<OvenWerks> It is better than most other cheap condensers.
<OvenWerks>  I would really like to get a ribbon mic though.
<NoklaM> The oldschool radio ones?
<OvenWerks> I heard a sax recorded with a cheap $100 MXR ribbon that made it sound like the sax was in the same room.
<OvenWerks> http://www.amazon.com/MXL-R144-Ribbon-Microphone-Shockmount/dp/B002LASBRG
<NoklaM> Something similar i picked in the Music shop, but the guy who operates it said i want the AKG
<NoklaM> I didn't argue
<NoklaM> but if i see him in town I'll tell him few words for the stand he sold me
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: The only hint for the AKG (really recording with almost any mic) is use more distance than live and do not hand hold.
<NoklaM> That's sound advice, maybe I'll sound better if i won't do the oposite
<NoklaM> but i doubt my vocal range is squick or squick
 * OvenWerks is cooking rice in a cup in the Uwave
<OvenWerks> I don't think it is vocal range that matters. It is getting an open natural sound.
<OvenWerks> listen to Balckmore's Night (or is it Knight?). The lady has not much range, but it sounds fine anyway.
<NoklaM> night i sright
<OvenWerks> I prefer that to ladies with tons of range that spend more time showing off than singing.
<NoklaM> She's good, and got a nice natural smile
<OvenWerks> put tape over the switch in the on position (of your mic)  :)
<OvenWerks> As a sound man I never buy mics with switches.
<NoklaM> the microphone feels nice and solid, but the switch is like made out of the cheapest plastic
<OvenWerks> Spending time trouble shooting a mic just to find out it has been turned off is frustrating
<OvenWerks> (when the stage is 50 feet away)
<flocculant> :D
<OvenWerks> Doing the best take of the day after switching off is not much fun either.
<OvenWerks> I got my Yf one of these: https://www.long-mcquade.com/61269/Pro_Audio_Recording/Microphones/Sennheiser/epack_e_835_S_w_20_Mic_Cable_and_Boom_Stand.htm
<OvenWerks> for recording/performance.
<NoklaM> hmm odd it's not working
<OvenWerks> ?
<NoklaM> the microphone
<NoklaM> And also my system just crashed
<NoklaM> got to check the logs
<NoklaM> ./src/common/menucmn.cpp(310): assert "wxIsStockID(GetId())" failed in SetItemLabel(): A non-stock menu item with an empty label?
<NoklaM> That's what i get when trying to run Audacity
<OvenWerks> what do you get if you just type audacity in a terminal?
<NoklaM> same
<flocculant> bug 1487811
<ubottu> bug 1487811 in audacity (Ubuntu) "assert wxIsStockId(GetId()) failed in SetItemLabel()" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1487811
<OvenWerks> audacity problem
<OvenWerks> :)
<NoklaM> d'oh
<OvenWerks> I use MHWaveEdit
<flocculant> bug appears to give a ppa with a working version
<OvenWerks> (Cause it works with ajck)
<OvenWerks> *jack
<NoklaM> hmm I think i should invest in studio speakers
<NoklaM> why is Alsa saying my audio channel is not valid
<NoklaM> argh
<NoklaM> I swear i listened to a Youtube vid a second ago and sound was fine
<NoklaM> Now Ardour is acting up
<NoklaM> and Jackd
<NoklaM> just sent a crash report to canonical
<NoklaM> how do i report a bug again?
<NoklaM> forgot sorry
<OvenWerks> ubuntu-bug packagename
<NoklaM> ah thanks
<NoklaM> I don't get it, when I set the audio device in Ardour4 to my audio card to HDA ATI SB and use Alsa in Audio System it says no device present, 2sec before that i used alsamixer and everything is in there alright
<NoklaM> so I'm not sure Ardour or Alsa
<NoklaM> Audio device not valid
<zequence> NoklaM: Could be you are still running jack
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: So you are using the alsa back end for Ardour then?
<NoklaM> Just killed jack, still persists
<NoklaM> Yes OvenWerks 
<OvenWerks> both jackd and jackdbus?
<OvenWerks> In that case, while Ardour is running nothing else will be able to see the audio device.
<OvenWerks> Ardour will not grab a pulse port, but the HW port. Then pulse can't see it.
<zequence> ps -eo comm | grep jack
<NoklaM> Nope jackdbus is not even running
<NoklaM> zequence: empty
<zequence> Usually I think using alsa will override pulseaudio
<zequence> But, you could try making sure pulseaudio is not using that card
<zequence> Or, use jack
<zequence> alsa is not wrong, but it is not what most people use directly these days
<zequence> Both jack and pulseaudio are using it as a backend different ways
<zequence> Also, jack and pulseaudio are friends in some respect
<OvenWerks> jackd is still the recomended way to run ardour. There tend to be less probelms.
<OvenWerks> The problems are not ardour's backend, but the other things like blocked ports tha people are no longer used to.
<zequence> flocculant: But, you did have the problem with GTK3 shadows, right?
<zequence> Not saying that makes the system prone to crashes, just that it's not production ready, and that could be regarded as not stable
<flocculant> zequence: yea ofc - not saying it's perfect :)
<flocculant> stable to me means it works all day :D
<zequence> Yeah, that it usually does
<NoklaM> Nope not working with jack either
<zequence> NoklaM: Try killing pulseaudio as well
<zequence> Or, if you want to do it the Windows way, which is ok in my book, reboot
<NoklaM> rebooting
<NoklaM> jackd crashed with SIGABRT in _gnu_cxx::_versbose_terminate_handler()
<NoklaM> ^had to type that manualy
<zequence> I haven't tried jack on the last release, so I have no idea of the state of it
<OvenWerks> it was working for me.
<zequence> Wait, of course I have
<NoklaM> I sent that to canonical
<zequence> I'm using it in my studio come to think of it. I even upgraded to it, to see how that worked.
<zequence> NoklaM: Do you have other audio devices?
<NoklaM> 2x USB mic and internal audio card
<OvenWerks> I had jack running with two sets zita bridges and three pa-jack bridges.
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: you will have to use zita-a2j for both mics
<NoklaM> 1 runnig ould be fine :P
<OvenWerks> run jack on the the internal device.
<zequence> Friday evening here, so I'm not going to be around all the time
<zequence> Or, however one would put it
<OvenWerks> zita-a2j -j Mic-in -d hw:<what is the HW name?> -r 4800 -p 256 -n 2
<zequence> Anyway, I'd like to help figuring out this problem. But, I'll leave it to you guys for now :)
<flocculant> night zequence 
<OvenWerks> o/
<zequence> night all
<NoklaM> o/
<NoklaM> http://pastebin.com/Gs6dv6wn  ->> error i get inside ardour
<OvenWerks> Ya, it looks jackish all right. There is a wonderful script I am trying to remember where you can DL it from... 
<OvenWerks> cd /tmp && wget http://jackaudio.org/downloads/adevices.sh && bash ./adevices.sh
<NoklaM> what does it do?
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: the output of that will give you some ideas about what apps are using what what alsa ports
<OvenWerks> It does not change the system
<zequence> That command tells you to change dir to /tmp, download the file in the url, and the run it
<zequence> It's a bash script
<OvenWerks> Right
<OvenWerks> It tells you all of you sound devices and who is using them when it is run.
<NoklaM> ah thanks both :)
<OvenWerks> It tells you how jack is set up to some extent to
<zequence> && means the logical AND
<zequence> wget is a tool to download things. bash is what you see when you open a terminal
<zequence> Usually, the first part of a bash command is some sort of cli application
<zequence> But, not always
<NoklaM> Eh it says all my channels are closed
<OvenWerks> I keep the adevices.sh in my home directory so it is handy and I don't have to keep downloading it
<OvenWerks> good
<zequence> What follows the bash application is a list of arguments.
<OvenWerks> None are being used.
<OvenWerks> how do you set up jack or ardour?
<OvenWerks> You will have to use the Jack back end on ardour to be able to use the mic _and_ the internal output
<zequence> when I say bash command, I mean what command you write in your terminal. You can run other text based shells, but bash is the default
<NoklaM> OvenWerks: so i have to run jack first, from the menu?
<zequence> You mean qjackctl?
<OvenWerks> use qjackctl
<OvenWerks> zequence: this is why I want autojack...
<zequence> OvenWerks: If it works, and doesn't crash, or is able to recover from that
<zequence> I would like that too
<OvenWerks> Ya, so far it works. It is run by default on two computers in daily use here
<zequence> Just the other day, it all went havoc when I exported a file in ardour from a 88.2kHz to 44.1kHz, while having the pa bridge one
<OvenWerks> One with three internal PCI devices and one with internal plus USB
<zequence> I had to reboot. Tried resetting everything.
<OvenWerks> Yes, I want to have a jack client that looks for freerun mode and unloads the pa-jack bridges.
<OvenWerks> zita-ajbridge already handles freerun mode.
<zequence> why not make the pa-bridge smarter?
<OvenWerks> I don't know if I am that smart(er) yet :P
<OvenWerks> NoklaM: I would suggest setting qjackctl to 48000 not 44100. Most IFs are built for 48000 (analog side) and some will not work at all at 44100.
<OvenWerks> (there are also a few that will only work at 44100)
<NoklaM> ardour works :D
<NoklaM> That's enough audio troubleshooting for one day o.O thanks guys :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: I will take a look at the jacksink/source code in PA when I get that far. I am still a newby coder in many ways.
<NoklaM> I'm off, good night
<OvenWerks> l8r.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-12-05
<sakrecoer_> howdi! couldn't make it thursday and friday..
<sakrecoer_> testing the software, but i can't find the magic number that has to be put in the filename...
<sakrecoer_> well.. typical.. i have searched and searchm and finaly when i ask i find it...
<sakrecoer_> :)
<sakrecoer_> hi Rosco2 :)
<sakrecoer_> working on those manualtests...
<sakrecoer_> how detialed do they need to be?
<sakrecoer_> the existing manualtests are fairly basic, open, save, minimal editing.... i'm thinking blender and scribus have quite a bit of depth to be tested :D
<sakrecoer_> but maybe that is something that the dev for blender scribus and those kindof package do...? and we just make sure it works in our environement?
<Rosco2> Just made a further comment on the bug, and will write to the list
<Rosco2> Go as dep as you like
<Rosco2> The more we test the more bugs we have a chance of fixing
<Rosco2> But 30 minutes to run the test will be too long
<Rosco2> Aim for 15-20 minutes
<Rosco2> You can always do a short one first and add to it in the future
<flocculant> hey Rosco2 :)
<flocculant> hi sakrecoer_ 
<Rosco2> sakrecoer_: Thanks for having a go at it :-)
<Rosco2> Hi
<Rosco2> Another weekend - some more test cases :-)
<flocculant> :D
<flocculant> I'll keep a watch out :D
<sakrecoer_> cool! :) thanks Rosco2 flocculant :)
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: are you Set on the m/l? 
<sakrecoer_> so do i just push the manual test files to my own launchpad?
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: yes :)
<flocculant> http://pastebin.com/9HuqWjwr
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: aah cool - nice to meet you :p
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: see the paste - that's a bit of the xubuntu qa docs that'll be going live soonish
<sakrecoer_> likewise :)
<flocculant> :)
<sakrecoer_> ok! :) how do i find which bug i have to assign myself to?
<sakrecoer_> this one for exemaple? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1183096
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1183096 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Test Needed: Scribus" [Undecided,New]
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntu-studio 
<flocculant> that's all of the studio testcase bugs :)
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: well how I would do it is pick one from the list of bugs then assign to it
<flocculant> then no-one else should happen to start the same one
<sakrecoer_> ok! :)
<sakrecoer_> can't find how to assign myself on the page tho...
<sakrecoer_> i input "affects me" those that assign it to me?
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: 
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: nope - just below that - the headings Affects Status etc - under assigned to it says unassigned
<flocculant> click the ! in the yellow circle 
<sakrecoer_> yay!!! (^^,)
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> then when you push and do the merge proposal, link the code to the bug report and then some randomly tame testcase admin will have a look :)
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: like it says in that pastebin tutorial? Commit the changes: bzr commit -m "Fix LP bug #BUGNO." 
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> then you push it to your  branch 
<flocculant> then MP - add me as reviewer
<sakrecoer_> MP? Merge Push? how do i add you?
<sakrecoer_> flocculant
<flocculant> merge push yea - when you've pushed it go to https://code.launchpad.net/~sakrecoer
<sakrecoer_> ok! :D awesome! i'll push all that stuff on sunday! :) tahnks for the hand flocculant and Rosco2! going offline for now,  read you soon!
<flocculant> see ya
<Rosco2> Yeah thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-12-06
<NoklaM> o/
<sakrecoer_> hi !
<NoklaM> o/
<sakrecoer_> i think i just assigned flocculant as reviewer for bug-1183096
<sakrecoer_> hi NoklaM :)
<NoklaM> How's it going sakrecoer_ 
<NoklaM> ?
<OvenWerks> bug #1183096
<ubottu> bug 1183096 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Test Needed: Scribus" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1183096
<NoklaM> Spent half a night figuring out why the microphone wasn't working
<OvenWerks> Hmm there is no link from the bug to the testcase.
<NoklaM> Wasn't studios fault although before I realised what was wrong(loose cable) i reinstalled the system temporarly
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: https://code.launchpad.net/~sakrecoer/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug-1183096/+linkbug
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: where do i find the link to that page...
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: "Link a bug report" on: https://code.launchpad.net/~sakrecoer/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug-1183096
<NoklaM> sakrecoer_:  if you check your personal launchpad it's there also
<NoklaM> linked in i think Code tab
<sakrecoer_> ah :) of course :) :faceplaming myself:
<sakrecoer_> thanks!
<krytarik> Sure.
<sakrecoer_> i followed this template to bzr prush: bzr push lp:~username/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug-BUGNO
<NoklaM> yup that should do it
<sakrecoer_> if i would do that again, but with a different /bug-BUGNO, will it create a new branch? or does bzr... understand the bugnumber?
<sakrecoer_> since i had to link the bug from the testcase, i assume it will create a new branch if i change the bug-BUGNO?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: the bugnumber becomes the name of your personal package
<OvenWerks> or directory in this case
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: Funny commit log, btw. :P
<sakrecoer_> why? :)
<sakrecoer_> it is my first ever so i expect it to be funky :D
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: Generally you'd want the commit messages to reflect the actual changes - and having them all the same doesn't particularly help. :P
<OvenWerks> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sakrecoer/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug-1183096/files/head:/testcases/packages/Studio/ lists four test cases. scribuse is the only one with no number.
<OvenWerks> Is that assigned later?
<NoklaM> Yup after review OvenWerks 
 * OvenWerks thought that might be the case
<NoklaM> OvenWerks:  mind if i pm you about silly stuff I meant to ask you the other day?
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: ok, i'll keep it in mind for next one :)
<OvenWerks> ok
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: if i make a new manual testcase, should i push it to the same branch althought the LP bug has a different number?
<sakrecoer_> or does it matter if i have one brnach for each manual testcase?
<NoklaM> I'd work on one file at a time sakrecoer_  , personal experience with bzr, if you work on more then one it gets messy 
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: Well, since you follow "bzr push lp:~username/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug-BUGNO", it'll be a different one, of course.
<sakrecoer_> ok... i feel like i missing some part of the required informartion...
<krytarik> NoklaM: That's not true though.
<sakrecoer_> NoklaM: that is confusing,... i need to make one file for each testcase... and if i have to wait for reviewm i will never get them done..
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: That's why you push to different branches.
<NoklaM> Last time i worked on 2 files with bzr it kept pushing commits to the 1st file where's the commit was 2nd file
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: ok... i think i get it :)
<krytarik> NoklaM: Because I think you did something wrong there. :P
<NoklaM> krytarik: ofc i did something wrong hehe :P
<sakrecoer_> butso its perfectly fine to have one new branch for each manual testcase, althought they all are going to end up in the same branch?
<NoklaM> branch will be same ubuntu-manual-tests, but each one will have a seprate case
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+code?field.lifecycle=MERGED&field.lifecycle-empty-marker=1&field.sort_by=by+most+interesting&field.sort_by-empty-marker=1
<krytarik> Illustrates it very well.
<sakrecoer_> ok :) now i feel my infor is integer again thanks! :)
<krytarik> NoklaM: For example, this isn't right either: '<NoklaM> it's done by bzr commit -m "Text of what you did goes here" filename'.
<NoklaM> Isn't it?
<NoklaM> krytarik: I'm preaty sure i got it of one of the ubuntu websites
<krytarik> NoklaM: In fact, that's how you messed it up. :D
<NoklaM> D'oh
<krytarik> â http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/user-reference/commit-help.html
<NoklaM> cheers
<sakrecoer_> hmm... i also did bzr commit -m "lazytext of what i did"
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: what should be done instead? 
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: No, that's the right, more usual way.
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: hmm... i can't see the difference with what NoklaM wrote...
<krytarik> The file name specified.
<krytarik> That limits the commit to just that one file.
<sakrecoer_> aah! of course hah :) tahnks for your patience krytarik :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: You're welcome, of course. :)
<sakrecoer_> while writing a testcase for blender, some stuff didn't work...
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: what should i do then? file a bug?
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: Of course.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: best to do a bit of checking first. does ubuntu have the latest that debian has?
<sakrecoer_> blender is crashing when choosing jack as sound engine...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: that is: should bug report be the bug itself or pulling in the newer blender
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: jack is running?
<sakrecoer_> yes
<OvenWerks> That should not be new code...
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: jack is running, touching any of the options in audio makes blender freeze-
<OvenWerks> The jack API has not changed for a long time.
<sakrecoer_> so what do you suggest i do? 
 * OvenWerks open blender
 * OvenWerks is now lost :P
<OvenWerks> I don't have a clue how to even find how to set audio in blender
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: file>user preferences> system tab
<NoklaM> i didn't even know blender had audio settings i always thought it only did 3d modeling and such
<sakrecoer_> blender is the perfect "blend" between 3d studio max, finalcut, after effects, z-brush, and photoshop
<NoklaM> Didn't know that wow
<NoklaM> I used it once tho and got lost in the UI
<OvenWerks> Ya the learning curve is high
<sakrecoer_> check out this short made with it :) https://youtu.be/41hv2tW5Lc4
<OvenWerks> I don't have enough of a use for it to go there.
<NoklaM> Are those actors or CGI?
<sakrecoer_> the difficult part is to learn to 3d terminology, and the 3d "thinking" the UI is very unique and scary at first, but very soon it becomes just aweseom
<sakrecoer_> the actors are humans..
<sakrecoer_> its the first openmovie whree they mix 3d with real images... its gotten even better now, that was back in 2012 and lots has happened...
<sakrecoer_> did i mention how much i love blender ? :D
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: it works! but you have to set blender to use JACK before jack is started :)
<sakrecoer_> then save user settings, quit blender, start jack, open blender and set AV-sync
<sakrecoer_> so feature, not bug :D
<sakrecoer_> i wish all blender build would come with jack, turns blender into a great VSE with ardour for the audio part :)
<NoklaM> sakrecoer_:  that was one weird short, i have no idea what I've just watched, but it looks like blender capabilities are just wow
<sakrecoer_> NoklaM: yeah... the scenarios of the openmovies are not always very good... i think they work on it collectively a bit like surrealist used to do: cadaver exquis :)
<sakrecoer_> wb NoklaM :)
<sakrecoer_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse this is what the openmovie scenario remind me of... sorry for OT..
<krytarik> zequence: So, let's have an offtopic channel, too! :P
 * sakrecoer_ puts on shamehat and walks over to corner
<sakrecoer_> :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: Like I indicated, no need to feel bad here. :)
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: (^^,) thanks! 
<krytarik> zequence: Ftm, is there a particular reason why this one has the 's' mode?  ("This channel will not appear on channel lists or WHO or WHOIS output unless you are on it.")
<OvenWerks> krytarik: becasue that way we don't get #ubuntustudio types of questions here
<OvenWerks> or at least as many
<krytarik> Heh.
<krytarik> Ftm, we don't have so many in #xubuntu-devel and #lubuntu-devel either.
<krytarik> (And they aren't set to be secret.)
<OvenWerks> not my decision, Just a guess on my part as to why.
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: thanks - seen your MPs - need a little bit of fixing then push again and I'll be happy
<flocculant> as I say in comments any action is <dt> and the reaction <dd> :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: Also, the Scribus file shouldn't be in your Blender branch.
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: ok :) cool! so... if the scribus file shouldn't be in the blender branch, should i pull a new clone of ubuntu.manual-tests for each testcase?
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: 
<sakrecoer_> how do i push the branch while ommitting all the other testcase files?
<sakrecoer_> hmm... "bzr: ERROR: Permission denied: "~sakrecoer/ubuntu.manual/tests/bug-1183096/": : Cannot create branch at '/~sakrecoer/ubuntu.manual/tests/bug-1183096'
<sakrecoer_> ah... osrry.. of course...
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: i pushed the fixes, i hope that will make it... cant seem propose a merge, because the old one is still active..
<sakrecoer_> (for scirbus) need to sleep, will look into the blender branche tomorrow...
<sakrecoer_> thaks for your patience guys! read you soon!
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: "should i pull a new clone of ubuntu.manual-tests for each testcase?" - Yes, but in this case, it's better to just remove the Scribus file and commit that.
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: And with your latest push to the Scribus branch, you now mixed it up with Blender, too. :P
<krytarik> Nvm, I see you reverted that.
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: You didn't have to do a new MP either, btw.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-12-05
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I am not sure on this. But if I need to add a file to /etc/default/ to make -controls work right, It may be the best thing to actually add it to -controls rather than -settings
<krytarik> Sounds proper to me, yep.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I am working on controls again...
<krytarik> :D
<OvenWerks> Hmm, it seems for setting performance on an intel (newer) CPU I also need to disable turbo.
<OvenWerks> yes, I actually mean slow the machine down...
<OvenWerks> So performance for Audio work and for graphics/video work may be different.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-12-06
<studio-devel391> hi
<studio-devel391> in any one here?
<cfhowlett> don't waste time asking that, just ask your support question.
<studio-devel391> ok
<studio-devel391> I am a windows 10 user but tired of it's problems. so I want to use linux .I have 2 computers .An Asus laptop which is core i7 . 4gb RAM and 1gb graphic and a PC which has core 2 quad cpu. Gigabyte mother board,  2gb of ram and 1 gb Nvidia graphic card 
<studio-devel391> I am photographer and I need to professionally edit softwares like photoshop 
<studio-devel391> and Web confrencing
<studio-devel391> and movie making
<studio-devel391> I am confused choosing Ubuntu studio or Fedora.. 
<studio-devel391> Thanks
<cfhowlett> fair question!
<studio-devel391> Thank you
<studio-devel391> What is The Answer.. 
<studio-devel391> Let me add
<cfhowlett> The Fedora Design Spin is my second choice should Ubuntu Studio cease operations.  Both can do what you describe.  It really comes down to your preferences.  
<cfhowlett> I suggest you download both and either ..
<studio-devel391> I teach photography online using skype .. May concider thet 
<cfhowlett> install virtualbox to windows, install Fedora and UStudio to vbox. test both.  
<studio-devel391> Wbhat is the  difference?
<cfhowlett> or get 2 USB's, make 2 bootable USB's, and test that way.
<studio-devel391> would you pls explain?
<studio-devel391> and
<studio-devel391> which one is faster?
<cfhowlett> !usb
<ubottu> For information about installing Ubuntu from USB flash drives, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick - For a persistent live USB install, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent
<studio-devel391> ok
<studio-devel391> I saw that
<cfhowlett> no notable difference in speed as both use a light desktop environment
<studio-devel391> So in what are they different?
<cfhowlett> look and feel
<studio-devel391> may add using android simulators.. 
<studio-devel391> only look and feels.. ?
<cfhowlett> both can do android.  in fact you can install the vital apps to most linux distros.
<studio-devel391> concider an artist taste
<cfhowlett> :_
<cfhowlett> not sure how I would address that, but I have done all the things you described as well as recording podcasts. US did it all with no problem. 
<studio-devel391> where can I see more pictures about design and feutures? 
<cfhowlett> But I do give full props to Fedora Design for an excellent product.
<cfhowlett> honestly, as you have narrowed your focus to the two "best" options, you really should and test them both for yourself.  YOUR sensibilities mean much more than random internet opinions.
<studio-devel391> Thank you so much.. 
<studio-devel391> My problem is my limitted download
<studio-devel391> Would be better If I couls choose one.. 
<cfhowlett> torrents!
<studio-devel391> Really
<cfhowlett> !torrents
<ubottu> Yakkety can be torrented from http://torrent.ubuntu.com/simple/yakkety/desktop/ubuntu-16.10-desktop-amd64.iso.torrent or http://torrent.ubuntu.com/simple/yakkety/server/ubuntu-16.10-server-amd64.iso.torrent depending on your needs. Other flavors can be found at http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969
<studio-devel391> I did never use that 
<cfhowlett> it makes downloading .iso's practically painless
<studio-devel391> What torrent does?  Download size is the same right>?
<studio-devel391> Only it's a manager I think 
<studio-devel391> Ok 
<studio-devel391> I use IDM usually
<studio-devel391> May I ask final question
<studio-devel391> I am using a mini linux software mounted on a bootable CD. 
<studio-devel391> Do u Think I nned to Install Windows any way?
<studio-devel391> I have it on an Disk Image.. 
<studio-devel391> not dificult 
<studio-devel391> But I prefer not to waste hard disk capacity
<cfhowlett> studio-devel391, if you are truly done with windows, make a bootable windows USB and save it or install virtualbox to linux > windows.
<cfhowlett> I still have win7 but I only fire it up once or twice a year
<studio-devel391> Is there any thing that make me go to windows?
<studio-devel391> And
<cfhowlett> I can't answer that for you.  
<studio-devel391> Is this possible to install photoshop on ubunto?
<cfhowlett> photoshop 2.0 yes.  newer PS, no.  thus: GIMP.  
<cfhowlett> if you need PS, keep windows
<studio-devel391> I mean.. Are windows apps usable ?
<cfhowlett> no
<cfhowlett> well
<cfhowlett> not 100%  with the wine emulator, SOME apps run to SOME degree
<cfhowlett> !wine
<ubottu> WINE is a compatibility layer for running Windows programs on GNU/Linux - More information: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wine - Search the !AppDB for application compatibility ratings - Join #winehq for application help - See !virtualizers for running Windows (or another OS) inside Ubuntu
<studio-devel391> And may I use Photoshop using Wine?
<studio-devel391> Ok 
<studio-devel391> Thanks a lot
<cfhowlett> happy2help!  hope you come through again!
<studio-devel391> Sure.. 
<studio-devel391> i am a new user.. 
<studio-devel391> Glad to have a good friens here.. 
<studio-devel391> :)
<cfhowlett> !fcm | studio-devel391 
<ubottu> studio-devel391: fcm is THE Ubuntu Community Magazine - find it at www.fullcirclemagazine.org, or #fullcirclemagazine
<studio-devel391> Sure 
<studio-devel391> Thanks again
<OvenWerks> from last meeting logs: "but see you next week"
<OvenWerks> this be next week, there a meeting or was that eylul being away for a while?
<eylul> I am here. I kind of got buried and didn't send the message, but I figured we will have a check-in with whoever is around
<eylul> Ovenwerks ^ 
<OvenWerks> Right.
<eylul> I know Krytarik asked if we can do this an hour later through. so that's something to think about. 
<OvenWerks> I have been working on -controls. 
<eylul> I saw!!!
<OvenWerks> I will still be around in a half...
<OvenWerks> Performance can be set, so far.
<OvenWerks> in my copy performance can be set at boot as well.
<eylul> I like that we will have the option on profile regardless of the default debacle, that.. from your emails, seems to have gotten more complicated?
<eylul> (I like btw having the option to set up the boot default) 
<OvenWerks> I am now setting up a button to turn "Boost" off
<OvenWerks> Setting up boost off or on at boot is a bit harder.
<eylul> Sakrecoer, Kryten feel free to join in if you are around (and astraljava too! *checks who else is on the log*)
<OvenWerks> It will require creating a script in /etc/init.d/
<OvenWerks> Intel Pstate does not guarentee a solid cpu speed if boost in on.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> if boost is on then performance acts like ondemand with a minimum speed of full speed but may increase to boost level and back.
<OvenWerks> For graphic work boost is probably a good thing
<OvenWerks> For low latency audio not.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> So anyway, my current bit of -controls work sees up to getting performance and boost working.
<OvenWerks> I do not know visually, if the GUI should separate options that are after boot or new login from those that happen on the fly or not.
<eylul> I would assume that once we have all the additions to controls we are planning (there are several) at some point we will review the UI
<eylul> it can be easier to figure it out once we have everything piled up in there, if that makes any sense
<eylul> (is somewhat semi afk until meeting time)
<eylul> Ok it looks like it might be only 2 of us today
<eylul> Current status of projects: 
<eylul> Controls (OvenWerks)
<eylul> Bug hunt (Rosco)
<eylul> Wallpaper contest (Cfhowlett)
<eylul> Website (Sakrecoer)
<eylul> Krita/Godot (Eylul)
<eylul> I don't have any updates. I don't think anything happened about website so we can scratch those off the list. 
<OvenWerks> I am just looking at the BP for -controls
<OvenWerks> the desktop for controls has aleady been changed to pkexec.
<eylul> ok can you explain a bit what that means?
 * eylul is still very new at this
<eylul> Ovenwerks ^ ) (I really need to remember to tag when talking on IRC)
<OvenWerks> -controls runs as root, gksu used to be the way to allow someone to do that. However, Ubuntu (and maybe debian) have been using policykit for years now and this keeps all security stuff in one place and up to date
<eylul> ah ok
<OvenWerks> in a meeting all comments are normally to everyone :)
 * OvenWerks types slow
<eylul> I know but it is 2 of us so I figured you might be back to work in between replying to me
<OvenWerks> nope, I am sitting in oour room to keep my Yf company
<eylul> ah ok. 
<eylul> alright I did have one question for you
<eylul> like i am very curious about all of this, but before I completely forget. What do you need from rest of us? is there anything we can do to help you work on this?
<OvenWerks> testing and coments on gui.
<OvenWerks> I have only two machines to test this on and in this case the physical machine matters.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> I have nothing with an MAD cpu in it for example.
<OvenWerks> s/MAD/AMD/
<eylul> I was going to ask :D
<OvenWerks> dyslexia strikes...
<eylul> do you use a particular tool to benchmark?
<eylul> :D it was a funny typo
<OvenWerks> jack and Ardour or gutarix
<OvenWerks> guitarix
<eylul> *blinks*
<OvenWerks> I basically look for xruns at various latencies.
<eylul> xruns?
<OvenWerks> Ardour does not have to run at low latency, but guitarix does.
<OvenWerks> xrun means under/overfill on the buffer. That is some audio information is lost or there is an audible click
<eylul> so basically trying your settings and seeing if there are more or less clicks when recording?
<OvenWerks> Both jack and Ardour count xruns.
<eylul> ah ok
<OvenWerks> It is much easier than listening for some click somewhere.
<eylul> :)
<eylul> yeah
<eylul> is the code on the nightly? 
<eylul> or how do we get it on our testing setups (for those of us still new at this)
<OvenWerks> basically jack has to service every client during every period, if jack gets an irq saying the buffer is ready to be read/written, and has not yet serviced all clients that is an xrun.
<OvenWerks> it is in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild/+packages
<OvenWerks> you can either enable the PPA or download the *deb file and apt install it
<eylul> ok
<OvenWerks> (I do the download and install)
<eylul> alright.
<eylul> I'll summarize all of this and add it to the meeting email so that everybody sees it
<OvenWerks> So far I have just added performance
<eylul> and I'll try to get to it this week. 
<OvenWerks> I have more working here but it is not ready to upload.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> I will probably upload when I have boost control working but before I have boost on/off at boot.
<OvenWerks> I get a message when I start it that I should use "requires gtk3" I don't know if it will just work that way or not. I don't know if glade deals with gtk3 yet.
<eylul> if you mean console errors... 
<eylul> I have been seeing them all over the place. it.. probably is ok?
<eylul> if not I have no idea. 
<OvenWerks> Whatever script I use in /etc/init.d/ will be generic to ubuntustudio.
<OvenWerks> i don't know either.
<OvenWerks> I just wondr if that means what we have will already work with gtk3 and not 2
<OvenWerks> One of the BP items is converting to gtk3
<eylul> BP?
<OvenWerks> blue print
<eylul> oooh
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls/+spec/ubuntustudio-controls-u
<OvenWerks> Looking at that I am thi nking a tabbed layout would be better.
<eylul> on blueprint there seems to be a discussion about switching guis
<OvenWerks> Yes, qt4 is now old too.
<eylul> do you have screenshot?
<eylul> (there is qt5. *ducks the incoming object*)
<OvenWerks> http://i.imgur.com/dxyzZC3.png
<eylul> *patiently waits for imgur to cooperate*
 * OvenWerks does not enjoy using a laptop with only one screen...
<eylul> :D
<eylul> yeah sorry imgur is not cooperating
<eylul> I can't see the image but email? 
<OvenWerks> it just has another checkbox below Realtime Audio that says "CPU Governor in Performance mode
<eylul> ok
<OvenWerks> So it looks the same as what you have now. I am not on my dev machine so I can't get anything more.
<eylul> ah alright
<eylul> yes I was curious about what you had that you didn't upload yet
<eylul> I assume that frankly whatever we decide down the line, it will be first profiles, and one profile will be set as default for boot
<eylul> if that makes sense?
<OvenWerks> another checkbox below with Set CPU governor to performance at boot
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> I am thinking to take system setting and divide it into current and boot.
<OvenWerks> I have started adding boost on off, but it is not runable yet.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> I have not started adding bosst /on/off at boot because I have to think how I will do that first... That is I have to make the script for it to enable first.
<OvenWerks> so three tabs (for now) would be "system setup" for boot time stuff (includes user setup) system switches for on the fly changes and AUdio for audio setup. 
<OvenWerks> Ausio setup should have it's own page for sure.
<OvenWerks> *audio
<eylul> ok
<OvenWerks> krytarik: o/
<krytarik> OvenWerks, eylul: Evening.
<OvenWerks> good morning ;)
<krytarik> :D
<eylul> hi krytarik
<OvenWerks> krytarik: so far we have only talked about -controls
<OvenWerks> krytarik: at home (not uploade) I have pstate detection in so that with pstate we choose performance or powersave and with out we replace powersave with ondemand
<OvenWerks> I have default cpu governor at bootitme figured out
<OvenWerks> I am putting a switch in for boost on off... audio needs boost off.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: the need I have will be for people testing... I have tested on intel with and without pstate works. But I have no AMD hw
<eylul> 1) Controls: 
<eylul>  Len has been doing a lot of work on this (as everybody probably  already knows :) ) but can use more devices to test it on. (especially  AMD chips but more devices in general). You can download the packages a  the dev archive. Some of the updates are not in yet, but will be soon.
<eylul>                 https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild/+packages  Also will need more feedback on GUI. 
<eylul>  2) Bug triage (no update) 
<eylul>  3) Wallpaper contest (no update)
<eylul>  4) Website (no update) 5) Krita package status (no update) 
<eylul> OvenWerks: this looks like a good summary for email?
<eylul> (the item 1 I mean)
<OvenWerks> Ya.
<eylul> ok
<OvenWerks> I would also like one of our graphic people to commant on how the gui should be setup
<OvenWerks> Mockups would be great.
<OvenWerks> I think I will add some auto audio setup one way or the other.
<eylul> I will probably have more thoughts on that Ovenwerks. basically I really think we should have some basic system profiles with one default to set as boot setup than having  2 sets of checklists. I am not sure how much overhead that would be through
<OvenWerks> The system will assume that if a USB interface is plugged mid-session that it should be jack master.
<OvenWerks> eylul: so templates
<eylul> exactly
<OvenWerks> back in a minute
<eylul> and ideally we would have a couple there by default, like one "performance" one "audio" (because most people will not know things like: I must turn off boost")
<OvenWerks> right
<eylul> :)
<eylul> *Is doing a VERY rough mockup
<OvenWerks> eylul: the tookit will determine a lot of the finer points
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> do you want the mockup directly in the gui toolkit?
<eylul> I was drawing in inkscape but.. 
<OvenWerks> just a drawing is fine. The toolkits are similar
<eylul> (also lets wrap this up slowly. I'd rather have us get in the habit of really finishing the meetings on time)
<eylul> *ok
<eylul> so you are using glade currently?
<OvenWerks> yes
<eylul> (btw glade description says GTK3)
<OvenWerks> I am just following what was stgarted and adding.
<eylul> (I am just downloading it from ubuntu repo at the moment)
<OvenWerks> so glade has been upgraded since I last looked at it. So we have majically upgraded to gkt3
<eylul> :D
<eylul> I guess that solves the whole issue of what toolkit to use?
<OvenWerks> Yes
<OvenWerks> glade is easy enough to figure out. I am not sure how to do systray stuff though
<OvenWerks> I think systray was why I suggested qt4 at the time, because I had figgured out systray... but that has all changed anyway
<eylul> systray I know is possible in python
<OvenWerks> i was using python woth qt4 at the time
<eylul> I assume it is possible in GTK just not sure how
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> google might tell us
<eylul> yup
 * eylul is meanwhile trying to get glade to place items in correct places
 * OvenWerks had a personal version of -controls http://www.ovenwerks.net/software/audsysmode.html
<OvenWerks> eylul: everything needs to be in a container. The container does the placement.
<OvenWerks> box grid whatever
<OvenWerks> try loading /usr/share/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls.glade
<eylul> wow
 * OvenWerks assumes you are already in ubuntustudio...
<eylul> I am 
<eylul> sorry temporarily distracted by this
<eylul> I assume this is more or less what you are aiming for, except the system settings like CPU profiles will be split off from audio specific settings
<OvenWerks> ya
<eylul> got it
<eylul> do you mind if I add that to the email to the ML?
<OvenWerks> not at all
<OvenWerks> go right ahead
<eylul> alright
<eylul> hi Chamois. We are REALLY wrapping up but any updates?
<OvenWerks> for development, I edit the glade file as me and cp to system as root but edit /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-controls as root in a termonal.
<OvenWerks> *terminal
 * OvenWerks does not type as well on a laptop as his mechanic kb
<eylul> it really is ok
<eylul> and this helps. 
<eylul> ok I declare this meeting completed
<eylul> let me first email the notes.
<eylul> then I'll try to make a quick .glade of what I was trying explain in words
<OvenWerks> cool, I will be gone for a few hours,then I will start working again.
<eylul> awesome! Thanks for your hard work on this OvenWerks
<OvenWerks> if you move the meeting time an hour later this may be about the tim I say good bye
<OvenWerks> (bye all)
<eylul> that's completely alright
<eylul> I assume that we will have people who can make some part of meeting
<eylul> but right now I am thinking maybe half an hour of shift? (if at all)
<eylul> and wrap this thing in an hour next time
<krytarik> I agree on half an hour later.
<eylul> Krytarik I know you need some extra time. so I hope that will help?
<krytarik> And it should really be wrapable in an hour.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> we are new at this, so I am ok with it running overtime but yes!
<krytarik> Yeah, helps me a bit.
<eylul> the goal is to get status update
<chamois> Hi everyone, well as I said, I wasn't at home the last week so I couldn't do anything.. I'll work on a new version for the logo boot
<chamois> eylul^
<eylul> awesome
<eylul> *adds it to the meeting minutes*
<eylul> and welcome back from travelling chamois
<eylul> thanksgiving?
<chamois> no, Just a simple vacation eylul
<eylul> ah ok
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> eylul: this is latest working: http://i.imgur.com/KvxzXTI.png
<eylul> ovenwerks: imgur hates me
<OvenWerks> http://imgur.com/X2lLHujl.png is where my glade is at.
<OvenWerks> sorry
<eylul> heheh
<eylul> Ovenwerks: could you attach these images to an email as reply to the minutes I sent?
<OvenWerks> I had the boot time offset from on the fly but moved it back in line because of the way I have the text worded.
<OvenWerks> eylul: I have not seen your message... or mine with attachments.
<eylul> let me check
<eylul> OvenWerks: I see both of them
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-12-07
<OvenWerks> eylul: I did a quick idea sketch of what I have in mind. The preset part would basically use what you showed with the tabs below. The display of what the preset includes may be best as more than one line and I am guessing the preset should not get loaded until the OK is save and exit gets hit or we add a "load preset" button
<OvenWerks> eylul: see mailing list ^^^
<eylul> Ovenwerks: see mailing list back. :D I do apologize for the long email
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-12-08
<OvenWerks> eylul: no worries I took as long answering. I think most of your concerns are minor. I am not sure what you mean by profile and how it is different from preset. I am not attached to one word or the other.
<eylul> hey
<eylul> profile and preset are same thing
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> eylul: by minor, I mean in general I don't care onbe way or the other
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> so changes are welcome.
<eylul> :)
<eylul> usability is something I care about :D
<OvenWerks> Basically if a widget remains the same name and uses the same callback name they cam be changed quite easily
<OvenWerks> my own sw is always easy to use ;)
<eylul> I.. might need to shuffle it around a bit more than that
<eylul> *sheepish smile* but I'll try to stick to what you have sent. (You did send a .glade file over email right? I wasn't dreaming that part)
 * eylul has had interesting few days
<OvenWerks> eylul: right now I am most interested on getting the behind the scenes how do I do this figgured out. for example I can change governor by opening the file in w and dropping the governor in, but with boost I have to pipe the value through tee to get it to work ??!!??
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> I seem to be getting email from the list hours later and out of order.
<eylul> odd...
<eylul> :/
<eylul> is it possible your email is filtering them?
<eylul> although this time I did have a small hiccup as well
<OvenWerks> I don't filter anything. Maybe up stream, but they do eventually show up
<eylul> I mean on server side. 
<eylul> but ok
<eylul> OvenWerks: I am off to sleep tonight but I will read this more carefully tomorrow, and send you the UI sketch. (it should be easier, now that I am not struggling with glade anymore)
<OvenWerks> Ok, I think tabs are easier to do than popups
<OvenWerks> I think a dropdown like you have could control the tabs if it would be better... and not show the tab labels
<eylul> err
<eylul> you mean control of the tabs?
<OvenWerks> Having everything on one page will be too much.
<OvenWerks> yes.
<OvenWerks> Ardour uses buttons to control the tab with tabs turned off.
<eylul> oh
<OvenWerks> I personally like the tabs
<eylul> so what it looks like to the user is that the content of the box changes from say: showing the status to editing it
<eylul> although behind the scenes it is a secret tab switch?
<OvenWerks> something like that. for switching from editor to perferences to mixer
<eylul> I am not against the tabs, but I still think for editing and adding new presets pop-up might be less confusing, but let me see - wait
<eylul> mixer?
<OvenWerks> Ardour has a mixer yes.
<OvenWerks> It seems the question is what is in the tabs.
<eylul> oh you are talking about ardour
<OvenWerks> was
<eylul> I agree with having different settings on different tabs and not having a giant wall of of setups and drop downs. 
<eylul> I am a bit less sure in terms of if we can fit the editing of presets into chosing a preset to use
<eylul> I'll really say preset editing should be its own window
<OvenWerks> eylul: I originally had governor set right together with use this setting for boot indented.
<eylul> although
<eylul> hmmm
<eylul> Ovenwerks, I need you rephrase that last bit :)
<OvenWerks> I just figure save what is there as a preset
<OvenWerks>  everything is editing... any change is an edit.
<eylul> then how does the user know if their change saved. and to which preset did it save to
<OvenWerks>  some of them are boot time only, but many of them may be right now settings.
<OvenWerks> they hit the save button and a dialog asks for a name
<eylul> I know a lot of programs uses that paradigm (and especially if pop-ups are hard to do that makes sense) but it is important that we make a UI that clarifies when is something edited, when is something saved, and what is differing from the current saved state of a preset
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> ok hang on let me sketch some of this stuff, so that I remember it in the morning
<OvenWerks> there could be a load preset button too. I have already put a current preset label in and the preset drop down might have something else in it till the user hits load, then it becomes current
<eylul> ok I think I understand what you are saying. 
<OvenWerks> But normally when the user selects from the drop down that becomes cureent without a load button.
<eylul> that MIGHT not be a problem
<eylul> its more the issue of: they load a preset and modify it..
<eylul> then it becomes visually confusing
<OvenWerks> However, the tings have been setup so far, boot preferences are set on exit, on the fly setting happen at button click.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> as soon as one thing is changed the current preset becomes "USER"
<eylul> ummhmm
<eylul> that works
<eylul> OR 
<eylul> <Preset Name>(modified)
<OvenWerks> Maybe the text space that shows the current preset should be editable so the name can be changed there... but if the user hits save they are asked for a name.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> we do want them able to modify an existing preset too through
<OvenWerks> Sure (modified) works better
<eylul> ok so what I have so far is
<OvenWerks> yes then they save as the same name.
<OvenWerks> so we read system profiles first, then user profiles and use the last read of any two with the same name
<eylul> main tab, with boot options and current presets, then tabs where you can edit each preset
<eylul> well ideally 2 profiles shouldn't have same name, program shouldn't allow
<OvenWerks> So you are taking the top part and making it a tab too?
<eylul> I am thinking tabs should be on top
<eylul> oh goodness, hang on
<OvenWerks> eylul: if there are any preshipped presets the only way for a user to over write them is if there is two with the same name.
<eylul> ahh I see
<OvenWerks> this is the way system menu editing is done BTW
<eylul> that's not encouraging :D
<eylul> (I am jesting, that makes sense actually
<OvenWerks> SO you are thinking the tabs should be at the top and file stuff at the bottom?
<eylul> let me just draw this 
<eylul> and I crashed inkscape :D
<OvenWerks> In many ways it would be nice (from my POV) to get things working first. That is to be able to control all the things we need to. I am adding just basic separation so far. After it is working then shuffle things around. I am going to at least finish the boost stuff at this point... Setting it at boot. Then if style is more organized I can switch looks before continuing.
<OvenWerks> I am thinking that you may be saying that the user expects things to be where they left them on reboot. So it would not be needed to have two buttons for each thing.
<OvenWerks> for example cpu governor might show:
<OvenWerks> CPU Governor |dropdown showing current governor|[X] keep this setting
<OvenWerks> All in one line
<OvenWerks> eylul: so after some thinking... I think one tab should be "Basic UbuntuStudio setup" This should include things that we normally set up as default but which someone installing our metas will not have. This basically includes the two original items, in audio group and able to use RT.
<OvenWerks> Then system tweaks (or settings) would have things like CPU governor and Boost that may not only be useful to audio but other things as well.
<OvenWerks> then an Audio tab, a graphics tab and a video tab? or does it need to be more specific
<eylul> I think what I have is similar
<eylul> but not quitte same
<eylul> I am still not sure 100% tablet stuff should be even in same controls, but yeah.. sorry
<eylul> this takes forever to draw. 
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> The tablet shouod have an applet in the settings menu.... on the other hand I would prefer to see this one in settings rather than system too.
<eylul> OvenWerks: http://ubuntustudio.azbulutlu.org/wp-content/uploads/controlUI.png
<eylul> on one hand wacom tablet tray applet is a sorely needed feature, and on one hand having it as part of ubuntustudio controls: it is a control, and integral one (its more than just settings because having presets again is useful in this case) on other hand its complicated
<eylul> anyhow it is 5am here
<eylul> I should go to sleep
<OvenWerks> Yikes!
<eylul> yeah I was heading to sleep when you caught me
<eylul> but this was a useful discussion!
<OvenWerks> ping whenever. I will change some things and get boost to work on boot
<eylul> awesome
<OvenWerks> later...  o/
<eylul> will ping you tomorrow and mail this image etc to ML too so that people can follow. gnight!!! o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-12-10
<studio-devel126> ji\\
<OvenWerks> Hmm, changing check boxen to combo dropdowns takes a bit more time. Test versions may be a bit longer in appearing  :P
<OvenWerks> I have got the governor switching with a combobox though. This allows the user to see which governor they are choosing, However I still give them only two choices.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-12-11
<OvenWerks> OK all, there is a new test version of controls available. Lots of stuff in the GUI doesn't work (or at least it doesn't do anything).
<OvenWerks> I will probably be removing the presets and tablet tabs before release as I don't see myself getting there.
<OvenWerks> I took a look at wacom tablet setup... I am confused :P
<OvenWerks> About the only thing I found that _I_ understood, was that it is indeed a /dev/input device, the same as keyboards mice and joysticks (and wiimotes).
<OvenWerks> (create a painting by waving a wiimote around in the air)
<OvenWerks> krytarik: What I have done so far with -controls is up and a package is available. I have left the whole GUI in for now even though most of it doesn't work.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I have moved the preset/profile box onto a tab, but it does nothing... and will for a while. Audio is working it's way towards working on my system, but not the upload yet. tablets I can't even start on because I don't know where to start. :)
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Any chance to drop the previously mentioned excess changelog entry too then? :P  (As well as fix the changelog of -default-settings.)
<OvenWerks> but that is ok, because I think the audio page will be a while anyway.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: what would you like it to say? Just back to where it was?
<OvenWerks> Some one had put a release note in it when it had not been released.
<krytarik> Yeah, that was Ross, this time.
 * OvenWerks has been running with turbo turned on and the CPU speed changes even more than ondemand ever did.
<OvenWerks> ok, will put it back.
<krytarik> No, merging the two sections was right - just separate the changes per author then - and drop any excess ones.
<OvenWerks> 0.64 UNRELEASED just Ross' last fix
<OvenWerks> I will commit as a change log fix, but not in the changelog itself.
<krytarik> Like referring to intermediate changes within the same version, or to ones that have even been uncommitted.
<krytarik> And particularly when it pertains the changelog itself.
<OvenWerks> revision 303 look ok?
<krytarik> Yeah - but well, now it's back to a single, last author - so could as well drop Ross' name at the top there.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: wrt -controls. I have a tab for basic ubuntustudio setup. This is for those who install our metas rather than our iso. It just completes the process. I am hoping to detect if it needs to be set and have -controls open with the tab active in that case but not normally.
<OvenWerks>  :)
<OvenWerks> krytarik: would you like another commit?
<krytarik> Well, I guess it depends on if there are any changes from anyone more than him foreseeable until the next release.
<OvenWerks> I have a tab for system tweaks that is sort of universal with the cpu governor and boost off/on. Theses are now dropdowns with the name of the governor on them and boost of and on.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, install -controls and see what it does now and looking at the audio part will show where it is going
<krytarik> Otherwise, could also dial back the both last commits completely and force-push it - then it's like before indeed.
<krytarik> (And this time autobuild wouldn't fail on that even.)
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I am not sure I want to add jackd to the depends.
<krytarik> Uh, I'm referring to what we were just talking about, -default-settings.
<OvenWerks> ya, i've kind of gone beyond that
<krytarik> On -controls, you just need to drop the "* Fix changelog version." entry.
<krytarik> Whichever way, before release.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: next commit I will fix that
<OvenWerks> It is already fixed on my system.
<OvenWerks> I will probably add something to -settings too when I get -controls done. SO it will take care of itself.
<krytarik> Also, since neither of us is expected to be the uploader too, it's fine like that anyway - and I used to do it that way for my own changes.
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild says -settings was successfully built.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: FYI, my plan just now for controls is to get the audio tab working and remove the tabs for presets and tablet for this release. I think that may be as far as I get. The best thing would be for me to actually have a tablet and work with it... but the cheapest I can find just now locally is $100... for something I don't really need.
<krytarik> Yeah, just read that in the log - just leave that to eylul then! :P
<eylul> huh?
<eylul> hi Krytarik and OvenWerks
<krytarik> Hiii. :D
<OvenWerks> o/
<eylul> leaving what to me? 
<OvenWerks> tablet settings design
<krytarik> All the fancy and tablet stuff.
<eylul> oh dear god. hahaha. sorry ovenwerks, I didn't expect you to go this fast :D
<eylul> (not a bad thing!)
<OvenWerks> Audio will take a while I think... or at least be more lines than the whole file so far :P
<eylul> heheh
 * OvenWerks should be doing the easy parts first...
<eylul> in terms of wacom tablet, the main issue is that button setup changes based on every single tablet, based on what version it is and what size it is. (larger tablets have more buttons on them.. or none at all.. in some cases :D)
<OvenWerks> eylul: how many people use more than one tablet?
 * eylul has an intuos, a cintiq companion and a bamboo. (although she doesn't really use the bamboo)
<OvenWerks> eylul: that is, would this be a set once or all the time.
 * eylul ducks the incoming object
<eylul> its actually pretty common for people to have 2 tablets: one with a screen, another one an intuos/intuos pro it seems
<OvenWerks> eylul: have you looked at the /dev/input/directory?
<OvenWerks> are there any subdirectories that start with by-*?
<eylul> nope?
<eylul> I do see a list of items that says "event" 
<eylul> by-id    event1   event12  event15  event2  event5  event8  mice    mouse2
<eylul> by-path  event10  event13  event16  event3  event6  event9  mouse0  mouse3
<eylul> event0   event11  event14  event17  event4  event7  js0     mouse1
<OvenWerks> the by-id subdir could be useful
<eylul> actually
<OvenWerks> by-path should have links that are solid
<eylul> we should be using libwacom I think?
<OvenWerks> that is the event 6 might point at a different device every time, but the by-path may be able to always point to the save device when it shows up.
<eylul> let me check
<OvenWerks> probably. I don't know how it works.
<eylul> actually
<eylul> I think for wacom we might go through by-iD
<OvenWerks> At least it has enough info to figure ut which event* is which.
<OvenWerks> by-id is easiest, that is what I use for dual keyboards
<eylul> actually OvenWerks hang on a sec
 * eylul digs through script folder to find the wacom script
<eylul> I would expect we would use xsetwacom to set up the wacom
<eylul> not go through dev/input
<eylul> unless there is a reason for going much lower level. 
<eylul> which is entirely possible
<eylul> http://linuxwacom.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Xsetwacom
<OvenWerks> eylul: the very small amount of stuff I read on it suggested that because the event* changes things could not be setup static. but if the is an automatic way that works that is great.
<eylul> I expect we would not be going through events at all
<OvenWerks> so the idea is to have a script/device and be able to set that up?
<eylul> ok so there are different levels of how we can handle this.. and I think it will take a while to get all the way through with some 
<eylul> 1) implement basic wacom settings. there is currently no solutions out there that has a GUI, that can set up a wacom tablet. That is: map keys of the tablet to a bunch of buttons, set pressure curve, and map the area of the tablet to an area of the screen. There is a commandline utility: xsetwacom
<eylul> (there is a couple of GUI solutions but one: doesn't QUITE work and requires building it, other sort of rigs gnome wacom settings back into XFCE at the moment
<OvenWerks> So existing solutions are DE dependant?
<OvenWerks>  :P
<eylul> 2) deal with actual button mapping for intuos and cintiq tablets (problem: every single model has different buttons and they are mapped in different ways to the xsetwacom button list. I saw one of the GUI solutions have a database of this, but it deals with it)
<eylul> yup, and they still aren't really amazing
<OvenWerks> The DEs are broken... there are standards.
<eylul> :D
<eylul> 3) there is currently NO solution, that allows presets that maps settings by software. (this is a feature that exists when you use the drivers on windows and mac, and is pretty much required feature)
 * OvenWerks went through too much with DEs and "standard" menu files
<eylul> so.. long story short: this is complicated
<eylul> :D
<eylul> hahah
<OvenWerks> So you want to have both a map editor and a map installer utility.
<eylul> we should probably look into the 2 gui options that are out there, before starting to code this thing.. but yeah.. I am not entirely sure if we can fork them.. or we are better off starting from scratch
<eylul> eventually
<OvenWerks> The map installer/loader would be the easier part.
<eylul> yes
<OvenWerks> udev should handle that behind the scenes
<eylul> how so?
<OvenWerks> you plug the tablet in, udev sees it and loads the right map...
<eylul> right
<eylul> well it already loads something
<eylul> but having it run a custom command would be nice
<OvenWerks> That is how pulseaudio does things with new audio devices
<OvenWerks> (and what we want to do too)
<eylul> *nods* essentially
<OvenWerks> eylul: what udev runs right now has to be something that is ok to run before login.
<eylul> ok
 * eylul is trying to get to ubuntu docs
<OvenWerks> What we would need to do is to look at what is there at login and run any needed "custom" commands and then get udev to run them for us or at least signal it needs to be done as the user.
 * OvenWerks is seeing why you want presets.
<eylul> :D
<eylul> I already have a document somewhere in the wiki about this
<eylul> I am trying to find them
<OvenWerks> Getting something to run at session start should be quite easy.
<OvenWerks> look for file exists in /dev/inputs/by-id to tell if things are plugged in then run the mapping commands.
<OvenWerks> The mapping commands would be the high level ones
<OvenWerks> Do those commands have to be removed when the device disappears?
<OvenWerks> Can two units run at the smae time?
<eylul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WacomScripts
<eylul> good question
<eylul> *goes to try
<OvenWerks> Can you choose from between two or more units that are currently plugged in?
<eylul> actually I don't need to try this
<eylul> yes
<eylul> because when you send a command to xsetwacom, one of the parameters is the device you are setting
<eylul> its like having 2 mouses
<OvenWerks> so using two at the same time could be confusing.
<eylul> I don't think anybody would do it, (unless they accidentally forgot something plugged in) but theorically it is possible
<OvenWerks> what I am asking is if it would be worthwhile having something that disables one of them, leaving only one active.
<eylul> I don't think it is a problem we need to urgently deal with, although really, its a question of having a drop down of: choose the device you are setting
<eylul> I wouldn't bother
<OvenWerks> Ok, as happens it s not too hard :)
<eylul> I would rather not disable anything
<OvenWerks> it is just a matter of setting up something that "grabs" the input so that x can't use it.
<eylul> OvenWerks I really am not sure we are supposed to do that
<eylul> there is a wacom driver already. 
<eylul> and a lot of the low level issues are already handled
<eylul> what we need is a gui to interface with it
<eylul> so there is something already listening for all tablets, and listing them, and knowing if there is a tablet
<OvenWerks> a GUI editor that made a script that it then ran would not be too hard. Editing in real time might be harder.
<eylul> I think a gui editor that under the hood creates a script gets a lot of the work done
<eylul> after all those of us who use wacom create a script manually
<OvenWerks> It would be nice to have one script and a set of config files.
<OvenWerks> config=map file maybe?
<eylul> there is a script with a lot of hardcoding in the page I linked to you
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> that actually makes sense
<eylul> eventually we can have preset files
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-12-07
<studio-devel141> join
<studio-devel141> help
<studio-devel141> !help
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-12-06
<tarzeau> any wishes for unpackaged software to have packaged?
<OvenWerks> I am sure there are... but I just started on my morning coffee so I don't remember right now. nonmixer etc. would be nice to have... nicer if it supported LV2.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-12-07
<tarzeau> i just packaged shotcut (video editor, qt-based)
<tarzeau> this? http://non.tuxfamily.org/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-12-02
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think I have solved both the hanging zita-ajbridge and the left over defunkt zita processes (zombies)
<OvenWerks> I have been playing with two USB devices just plugging and unplugging them in various orders without oddities.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-12-04
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Awesome. Still having the CPU governor isssue.
<OvenWerks> I haven't looked at that and there is some other work that needs to be completed before I chase it. I expect this is something that is 19.10 ish as it works fine in 18.04. (some systemd change?)
<OvenWerks> Or it could be an intel vs. AMD thing too.
<Eickmeyer> Possible, but the version included in 19.10 doesn't have this problem. I'm running from autobuild.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: if you run controls from a terminal (commandline) do you see errors?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I don't, but there's no output when changing governors. Any time I open it, it's showing OnDemand.
<OvenWerks> (this is one thing I liked about tcl/tk it pops up a dialog on all errors.)
<studiobot> <Duke> Hi all.  Are there daily builds of Ubuntu Studio 20.04?  I' m asking because I like DVDStyleras a DVD authoring application.  It runs on 1US19.04, but not 19.10.  I'd like to test in on 20.04, to see if it runs okay.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-12-05
<OvenWerks> @Duke could you file a bug report against the DVDStylers package if it still doesn't work?
<OvenWerks>  So far as I know 20.04 pre alpha is what dailies are
<Eickmeyer> @Duke Anything outside of the Ubuntu archives isn't supported. Definitely a place where you'd have to file a bug with the authors of DVDStyler. If it doesn't work in 19.10 it certainly won't work in 20.04 at this stage. https://sourceforge.net/projects/dvdstyler/files/dvdstyler/
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I thought we used to ship it... must have been some time ago. I don't have it in 18.04 either.
<OvenWerks> I guess we ended up with devedeng
<OvenWerks> I think we lost it due to bit rot.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Perhaps, but it's in active development. Must have been dropped by Debian for whatever reason.
<studiobot> <teward001> *coughs* https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dvdstyler/+publishinghistory
<studiobot> <teward001> was deleted in 2015.
<studiobot> <teward001> and apparently deleted in Debian too
<studiobot> <teward001> but I can't find the removal bug
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 I'm not in any hurry to get it back, but seems odd considering it's not a dead project. That said, the amount of DVDs being produced anymore is nil in comparison to online video.
<OvenWerks> And we do have a dvd authering tool.
<studiobot> <teward001> that's why i'm looking for the debian removal bug and I can't find it
<studiobot> <teward001> it could be an issue with dependencies, looks like there've been some dep crashes among other things
<OvenWerks> Yahoo!, my sons HUION drawing tablet just works with 19.10.
 * OvenWerks finally got him his own system...
<OvenWerks> I used to have to install another kernel module and scripts to get it to work.
<Eickmeyer> Nice!
<OvenWerks> Maybe I will feel like adding some basic tablet support now...
