#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-24
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarksUbuntuBook
<jsgotangco> hey all
<ajmitch> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> forking?
<jsgotangco> sean on crack
<jsgotangco> hello rob^lt 
<rob^lt> hi jsgotangco 
<rob^lt> intresting day on the mailing list :)
<jsgotangco> oh you always need a sean to stir up the natives heh
<rob^lt> heh yeah
<jsgotangco> jonathan has a valid point though, he's the only guy who was left during breezy 
<jsgotangco> so i promised jonathan i would install kubuntu after release and do it again
<rob^lt> kubuntu wise yeah
<rob^lt> well, it will be an intresting meeting, hopefully sean will be there :)
<jsgotangco> im inrested to hear out on the other people as well who expressed great interest in reviving traffic
<rob^lt> yes me too
<jsgotangco> altough its not really a documentation thing, it was interesting to know that the idea sprang up as a doc issue
<rob^lt> well if its going to happen again most likely it will be by us
<jsgotangco> we'll see, when people have nothing to write, things like this happen :-)
<rob^lt> heh
<Madpilot> hmmm... why do Stephan Hermann's blog posts always seem to re-appear on planet.u.c days after they first appeared?
<jsgotangco> oh jdub says its on \sh's rss not on planet itself
<robitaille> maybe he is playing with the setup of his blog server.  just complain to him when he gets up; should be soon :)
<Madpilot> it's especially noticable because he usually does a bunch of posts at once, then the whole chunk reappears again...
<jsgotangco> Keybuk's blog entries are few and far in between but they sure are nice
<Madpilot> heh... Corey mentioned my Scribus stuff in his blog... lucky me ;)
<rob^lt> it seems everyone but me has a blog these days
<rob^lt> I used to have one but got sick of the spam bots
<robitaille> just catching up on my blogs reading;  it's nice to see that Mako keeps himself very busy these days with these talks on short notice; I wish I was closer to Boston...
<jsgotangco> you don't have to force youself on getting one :)
<rob^lt> heh yeah
<rob^lt> I kind of figured it was a bad idea for me anyway
<jsgotangco> but the blog tools now have some authentication for blog spammers
<rob^lt> hehe theres a new chicken toy that makes choking noises when you strangle it around the neck
* robitaille only got a couple of spam comment in his blog in the last few months
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> sometimes the spam is funny
<jsgotangco> "what a wonderful and insightful blog"
<rob^lt> I kept getting texas holdem poker bots
<jsgotangco> rob^lt, what's your take on sean's suggestion
<rob^lt> well I can see the benifits in what he is saying
<rob^lt> ubuntu docs sometimes overshadow kubuntu docs
<rob^lt> hmm my spelling sucks tonight
<jsgotangco> i don't like working in different svns 
* jsgotangco already has 4 svn at the moment
<rob^lt> yes, I don't think that is a good idea though
<rob^lt> hence my suggestion of a new svn layout
<jsgotangco> a branch would probably be acceptable
<rob^lt> we could have /ubuntu and /kubuntu directories
<rob^lt> and share common things like licences in /common
<jsgotangco> yeah
* jsgotangco needs to get trunk soon
<rob^lt> having more then one svn is a stupid idea
<jsgotangco> well i think sean is concerned on granting svn rights
<rob^lt> jsgotangco, yeah but be careful its about a 200mb download due to all the upstream stuff thats in there
<rob^lt> (or in other words unorganised crap)
<jsgotangco> if the svn is elsewhere, he can easily add people on it
<rob^lt> maybe, but why should he have control of it?
<jsgotangco> yeah i was waiting for a jbailey cleanup but we'll know that this friday
<jsgotangco> oh he's pretty good at it actually he's more than capable to handle a team really
<rob^lt> although its hard to get new accounts with commit access, its probably a good thing as far as security and general wellbeing of svn is concerned
<jsgotangco> yes
<rob^lt> people can just send patches to the list, I think its a minor issue at the moment
<jsgotangco> the current svn is also pretty much limiting to him...
<jsgotangco> vendor drops, etc.
<rob^lt> I don't seem to have a problem with it, and I have used it more then him in the last few months at least
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> we don't really use more than 15% of what svn can do 
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> our needs are simple and our focus should be content :)
<rob^lt> yep
<jsgotangco> technology and infrastructure are easy to discuss when we have content :)
<jsgotangco> i think we have a good base with the starter guide :)
<rob^lt> another reason why simply changing our directory structure is a better idea, nice and simple
<rob^lt> yeah :)
<rob^lt> despite a few bugs everyone I talk to loves it
<jsgotangco> yeah
<rob^lt> it will go off when we unleash help.ubuntu.com
<rob^lt> then people on IRC/wiki/forums can link to it
<rob^lt> oh, I remember there being a pretty good userguide on the xfce website, I was thinking about asking to use it as a base for xubuntu docs
<jsgotangco> have you seen the freebsd handbook
<jsgotangco> now thats a very good book
<rob^lt> I've read a little of it
<rob^lt> I almost put freebsd on this laptop
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> ok so i see myself doing kubuntu, improve the styleguide, an upstream doc and finish up on edubuntu
<jsgotangco> not bad
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob^lt> keeping yourself busy :)
<jsgotangco> oh the upstream doc is almost done, lots of time :)
<rob^lt> well I plan on improving the ubuntu faq guide, doing the kubuntu faq guide depending on what happens there and also starting work on a xubuntu doc, maybe the userguide I mentioned before
<jsgotangco> kubuntu has this nice app called katapult
<jsgotangco> you do an alt + space and a translucent box appears and you can type the app you want
<jsgotangco> have you checked the gnome user guide?
<rob^lt> like a terminal?
<jsgotangco> no its not a terminal
<rob^lt> yeah, ubuntu has a panel applet that does that
<rob^lt> or I should say gnome
<jsgotangco> yeah but katapult is uber cool :)
<rob^lt> heh
<Madpilot> anyone want to have a look at the THREE php5 install pages we've got cluttering up the wiki? (given that php5 is now installable via repo in Breezy...)
<rob^lt> gnome user guide? yeah I've thought about it
<rob^lt> hmm, this could be bad: the faqguide on help.u.c doesn't have the licences attached
<rob^lt> due to using xinclude
<rob^lt> does anyone know if its using branch or trunk?
<Burgundavia> bloody hell
<jsgotangco> yes hell awaits
<rob^> yep
<Burgundavia> my bike just got stolen
<rob^> that sucks
<rob^> go run them over in your car :)
<Burgundavia> don't have one
<Burgundavia> the worst part is that it was off my friends porch
<jsgotangco> sucks
<jsgotangco> who's steal a bike?
<Burgundavia> it was a half decent one
<robitaille> victoria, city of bike crime. my wife lost a bike when it got stolen inside our house (it was inside the entrance lobby, and the door wasn't locked...).
<jsgotangco> i live in the carjacking capital of the philippines
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: you lost your bike?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, yep
<Madpilot> crap
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: you reported it? (not that that'll do much good, but...)
<Burgundavia> I just got home, discovered it stolen less than 1/2 hour ago
<Madpilot> the cops are up all night too
<Burgundavia> ya, I will call in a sec
<Madpilot> did you loose your lights and stuff as well?
<Burgundavia> yes, that is crappy part
<Madpilot> that expensive headlight?
<Burgundavia> because I was at John&Lindas, I didn't remove it
<Burgundavia> yep, the expensive one
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: well, at least you're employed now...
<Burgundavia> that is no consolation
<Madpilot> it means having income to replace the bike with, at least
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> but having it stolen is a major downer
<Madpilot> yeah, that sucks
<Burgundavia> I am going to call bike stores tomorrow
<Burgundavia> I might get lucky
<Madpilot> I've been lucky, being downtown a lot, I've only lost a few lights and stuff
<rob^> does yours or your friends insurance cover it?
<Burgundavia> rob^, there deductable is likely more than the bike is worth
<Burgundavia> s/there/their
<rob^> ouch
<Burgundavia> well, replacement cost is about $700. Light system is about $100
<Burgundavia> deductable is likely $500
<rob^> not that it helps, but I saw this kind on a pimped out bicycle today, it had fire painted on it and everything
<Madpilot> one minor consolation: end-of-model-year bike sales are probably starting soonish...
<rob^> s/kind/kid
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes
<Madpilot> incredibly strange bike link: http://dclxvi.org/chunk/index.html
<rob^> whatda?
<rob^> people are weard
<rob^> s/weard/weird
<Madpilot> those people are insane, which is different to weird... :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> this is like a rock band
<jsgotangco> heheh
<jsgotangco> see even spidey bikes
<rob^> any ideas on how to get help.u.c links from http://help.ubuntu.com/faqguide/C/ch03s02.html#jre to help.ubuntu.com/faqguide/jre ?
<Madpilot> my favourites, because they look so unridable: http://dclxvi.org/chunk/meet/long/index.html
<jsgotangco> Plopulator Son Of Chopulator.
<Madpilot> it is impossible to read this page through without laughing out loud: http://dclxvi.org/chunk/meet/multiwheel/index.html
<jsgotangco> Poppa Chop.
<jsgotangco> oh man
<jsgotangco> The Gynecological Station.
<jsgotangco>  It took Vog the Smeltor several nights without sleep to craft the Dog, the juggernaut of battle wagons. 
<Madpilot> The Dog of War
<Madpilot> with metal picnic tables for wheels
<jsgotangco> no brakes
<jsgotangco> heh
* Madpilot considers a trip down to Portland to drink beer with these insane people...
<jsgotangco> This ride is all about comfort and convenience. Our bi/tri-cycle technology makes worrying about how far back that wheelie can be popped nothing but a sad memory. Moreover, it also nearly eliminates the need to steer. One need only point the helm towards one's objective, pop back, and relax.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, lets go next year when I go to OSCON
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: sounds good, I'll loiter in Powell's and meet insane bike builers, and you can do geeky computer things
<Madpilot> ;)
<Madpilot> s/builers/builders
<Burgundavia> well, I just spoke to the cops
<Madpilot> hmm?
<Burgundavia> got a police file number
<Madpilot> well, that'll help w/ John's insurance, if they wind of filing, anyway
<Madpilot> *wind up, that is... bleh
<Burgundavia> ya, tomorrow morning comes the fun part, calling all the bike stores in town
<jsgotangco> weeee
<Madpilot> start with ChainChainChain - if they see it they'll call you - so will North Park, I think.
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: the real fun part is the large number of bike stores in this city - it's popular here and we're well supplied with stores...
<Burgundavia> the most bicycles and most bicycle thefts per-capita in Canada
<Madpilot> lucky us
<Madpilot> ;)
<Madpilot> anyway, I need to get off the computer and crash out. Later, everyone.
<jsgotangco> night
<Burgundavia> night all, need to work tomorrow
<WaterSevenUb> jbailey, if you need some input on http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18050 let me know...
<rob^> hi mdke 
<rob^> the licences are not showing up in the faq guide on help.u.c because of the xinclude
<jbailey> WaterSevenUb: I probably will eventually.
<jbailey> WaterSevenUb: It's not on my immediate priority list.
<WaterSevenUb> jbailey, ok :) It woud be great if could be solved through breezy-updates. 
<jbailey> Yeah.  I don't know if an upload for this will be approved or not.  Probably, I guess
<WaterSevenUb> Sometimes is worse to see the translation in Brazilian than in pure English for some Portuguese people that are not familiar with Portuguese Brazilian terms... so I hope so.
<WaterSevenUb> anyway, thx.
<jsgotangco> jbailey: awake?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Maybe. =)
<jbailey> How's it going?
<jsgotangco> not much interesting thread on the list on the trunk structure what's your take?
<jbailey> Haven't caught up on it yet.
<jsgotangco> oh
<jsgotangco> well its the time of the year where all of a sudden people who didn't write that much suddenly appear after a release and make suggestions so
<jbailey> Right.
<jbailey> And you think it's worth reading these? =)
* jbailey hides.
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> well i was expecting your reply at least since you said a while back you already have an idea how trunk be structured....
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi ppl
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Yeah.
<jbailey> I'll dive in there a bit later today.
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: hi
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<jbailey> I had some catchup stuff to do on the support side the past couple days.
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jjesse> morning
<jjesse> jbailey:  its not worth reading all of it
<jjesse> i think we should make the structure changes that were suggested early in the discussion
<jsgotangco> morning jjesse 
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> jjesse: where did kgpg go?
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<jjesse> don't know i think there is a bug w/ it ?
<jjesse> i remember some discussion on kubuntu-devel the other day
<jjesse> Riddell: can you confirm?
<Riddell> kgpg is in universe where its always been
<Riddell> kmail was compiled without gpg support which has been fixed in -updates
<jsgotangco> hrmmmm
<jsgotangco> i thought kgpg was in main in hoary...
<jsgotangco> oh well i'm beginning to like what im seeing now though...
<jsgotangco> hey mgalvin 
<mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
<mgalvin> hows it going
<jsgotangco> not bad interesting discussion on the list and you?
<mgalvin> can't complain, been busy with life, finally getting some of my free time back, hopefully I can start contributing again
<Kamping_Kaiser> im not sure what i think about the split bit :| im trying to make up my mind
<jjesse> don't want to split want to change the directory structure
<Kamping_Kaiser> i asumed that this was for ubuntu and there was a kubuntu-doc as well, as i have seen a kubuntu and ubuntu irc chans, so i asumed it went the whole way through
<jsgotangco> it shouldn't be that way for docs, kubuntu writers and ubuntu writers can examine code 
<jsgotangco> the only reason why sean would like to fork and move to another server is that it would be easier to add more svn accounts...
<jsgotangco> that's the most obvious
<jjesse> like i said in one of the emails, he seems to come out only when he wants to change everything to his way and then leaves when it doesn't go his way
<jsgotangco> plus the fact that our current svn is quite dated, some svn/docbook voodoo ain't possible
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. so is the problem with the layout? or the server having support for a limited number of users?
<Kamping_Kaiser> or other?\
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: the layout isn't a -problem, it can be easily structured accordingly
<jjesse> limited access to who can create users and give access
<jsgotangco> another svn won't answer that
<jsgotangco> a distrbuted revision system will
<Kamping_Kaiser> right, im new to the concepts regarding how doco is done (more or less), so to me its all as good as any other bit
<Kamping_Kaiser> my experiance with doco is 'i write it, tehy use it, get feed back, change it, forget it'
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: yes in my opinion infrastructure talk only hampers....
<jsgotangco> we've got an established system let's improve on it
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i totatlly agee
<jjesse> agree
<jjesse> everyone always wants to change things drastically post release
<jjesse> it happened post-hoary and now the discussion has started post-breezy
<jgotangco> bleahhh
<jgotangco> wtf my dsl died suddenly
<Kamping_Kaiser> :( wb
<jgotangco> where was i
<jgotangco> oh yes
<Kamping_Kaiser> 'improve on it' ;)
<jgotangco> right ok so...
<jgotangco> the structure isn't the problem
<jgotangco> the problem is people committing to write somethign then disappear midway
<jgotangco> even if its a volunteer project at least saying "hey sorry, i can't continue, can someone continue my work, here's what i planned, good luck" sort of thing...
<jgotangco> but nooooo
<Kamping_Kaiser> :( oh, those sort of issues
<Kamping_Kaiser> how much of the doc is in that position?
<jgotangco> well at the moment, the trunk is full of useless stuff
<jgotangco> that needs obvious cleanup
<jgotangco> it got filled up because of upstream crap we have no use at the moment
<jgotangco> its 200MB!
<Kamping_Kaiser> svn? yeh, i know :|
<Kamping_Kaiser> i downloaded it twice :S
<jgotangco> it shouldnt be like that
<Kamping_Kaiser> i downloaded it, then i did something so i had to get it again ( i forget the details)
<jgotangco> docbook is pretty simple really...
<Kamping_Kaiser> *fears*
<jgotangco> i don't understand the fuss on the contributor barrier...
<jjesse> it really is, you can follow what other people have done and then build the doc to see if it works
<jgotangco> OOo 2 can do docbook, let the docteam clean up just in case....
<jgotangco> but people who contribute in anyform is welcome
<Kamping_Kaiser> im going to learn docbook, because i despise wysiwyg editing, but its still quite a mountain (learning docbook, then offering patches)
<jgotangco> the toolchains for gnome and kde are a bit different on the presentation layer, but it shouldn't be an issue really...
<jjesse> Kamping_Kaiser:  i just use kate as my editor to change the docs
<jjesse> plus you can download the full version of the orilley guide that was written for docbook
<jjesse> instead of forking over money for the book
<Kamping_Kaiser> im going to end up using vim or gedit myself (depending where i am relative to computer), but an orilley sounds like a good idea
<jgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: use Bluefish if youre in gnome, it has docbook functionality
<Kamping_Kaiser> if i want to play with stuff, should i do that on my svn repo? or make a file somewhere else and do it there?
<jjesse> Kamping_Kaiser:  http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks jjesse
<jjesse> np
<jgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: well you can play around with your working copy actually...you still don't have commit access yet so you won't mess up the svn trunk...
<jgotangco> if it doesn't work with you, you can always revert to the lastest from the server...
<Kamping_Kaiser> and another question (sorry, i have plenty for another time ), should i officaly join the docteam?
<jgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: if its interesting enough for you, sure we need all the help we can get...
<jgotangco> submit a patch and stuff we'll eventually get you an svn account for sure
<Kamping_Kaiser> im not aiming at svn, its more a 'if i have to' atm ;)
<jgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: feel free to participate, we're an open group..eventually when you get the feel of it and it interests you, it'll be much easier to make the decision :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> :) it intrests me, its getting the hang of docbook+svn that will take time. but ill print out a bit of reading material+save a copy and se ehow i go
<jgotangco> once we create specs for docs in a few weeks you'll have a clearer view on what you want to do...
<jgotangco> as for now, assume its in flux
<jgotangco> we have a good base doc atm so its natural to build upon it
<Kamping_Kaiser> nice, im still putting off fileing a heap of bugs on the (ubuntu)faq, because its going to flood rob :( but ill do it later i suppose
<jgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: sure flood bugzilla whenever possible
<jgotangco> we can't spot stuff by ourselves
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. over the next few days your going to get hit by a wave from bugzilla :(
<jgotangco> fun :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh....
<jgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: don't limit yourself to Ubuntu/Kubuntu docs...
<jgotangco> if you see errors in other documentation you see in Yelp for example, file it too
<jgotangco> so we can tag it to upstream just in case
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. i thought id be a bit systematic, so i have a ton of bugs against the faq. when i do them, ill look elseware ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ill only be trying to offer doc for ubuntu (and maybe edubuntu) as i dont have any kubuntu paackages/machines
<jgotangco> no problem
<jgotangco> i'm going to fill up with kubuntu for dapper...
<Kamping_Kaiser> cool. if i find i have time (i have to get a real job soon, so time might get scarse, ill see) i will see about what i can do there, but it would only be reading for bugs in doc, not adding more
<jjesse> me as well
<jjesse> Kamping_Kaiser: if you find any bugs in the kubuntu docs in svn feel free to change them (typos, grammer problems, etc)
<Kamping_Kaiser> why didnt that time out and reconnect :( oh well
<jgotangco> ok good night going to sleep early
<Kamping_Kaiser> night
<Riddell> what's the subversion URL for checking out?
<Riddell> the non-annonymous one
<jjesse> you mean this?  https://docteam.ubuntu.com
<jjesse> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
<Riddell> jjesse: that's non anonymous?
<Riddell> it doesn't ask for my password
<jjesse> Riddell: i guess i don't know the difference
<jjesse> when i try and commit the first time it asked for my password, and then it hasn't since
<Riddell> clever
<jjesse> is there a .svn or something that it saves in?
<jjesse> Riddell: your commit worked btw saw it come across the commit mailing list
<Riddell> cool, I'll merge stuff in, sorry for the delay
<jjesse> Riddell: no worries i'm really busy at work today so i haven't gotten a chance to do more then just chat here
<mdke> evenin
<mdke> Madpilot, around?
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> Madpilot, any thoughts on DraftWikiGuide?
<Madpilot> mdke: looks pretty good - there should be a link to HelpOnEditing, though
<mdke> well that is linked from HelpContents
<mdke> but please add anything you think
<mdke> i was hoping you would!
<Madpilot> ah, so it is. 
<Madpilot> I'm going to add the piece of code that UserDocumentation uses to float the ToC over to the right under the Useful Tricks category, then
<mdke> okie dokie
<mdke> feel free to add guidelines
<mdke> i'm conscious the page hasn't had enough edits yet
<Madpilot> mdke: made a couple of edits and additions to DraftWikiGuide
<Madpilot> one problem is that "Editing This Wiki" is currently at the very bottom of the FrontPage; I'm inclined to move it right back up near the top, to right below the UserDocumentation section
<Madpilot> thoughts?
<jjesse> where did we leave this madnessa that was occuring on the mailing list in regards to kubuntu-docs?
<Riddell> jjesse: kubuntu-docs should be merged now
<jjesse> Riddell: thanks
<mdke> Madpilot, lemme look
<mdke> Madpilot, i think i would disagree actually
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> maybe
<Madpilot> mdke: having "Editing This Wiki" right below "Searching This Wiki" and "Using This Wiki" made some sense to me, anyway
<mdke> yeah fair enough
<mdke> the important thing is that people can see the relevant section in UserDocumentation about how to contribute
<mdke> Madpilot, so do you think DraftWikiGuide is ready for general release and linking around the wiki?
<Madpilot> mdke: pretty much, yes
<mdke> ok i'll rename it to WikiGuide
<Madpilot> I guess we should move it first
<mdke> done
<mdke> geez the wiki is so slow nowadays
<mdke> fingers crossed for the hardware upgrade
<Madpilot> editing the FrontPage now
<mdke> cool
<mdke> (gone)
<Madpilot> later, all - work...
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-25
<StormyEyes> Hello. Should I be talking here if I'm just working on the Wiki?
<Burgundavia> StormyEyes, what are you planning to do?
<StormyEyes> I added this page -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CustomXSession -- and was looking for feedback.
<Burgundavia> StormyEyes, if want to edit every page on the entire wiki, then better talk about it first
<StormyEyes> Every page? Nah; my wife would kill me for paying more attention to the wiki than to her.
<Burgundavia> StormyEyes, basically, look carefully for an existing page before you start a new one
<StormyEyes> OK, I did that. I didn't see anything in there for custom X sessions.
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> thanks for the effort
<StormyEyes> No problem.
<StormyEyes> I don't see anything in there for Openbox or other minimal environments; perhaps I should clean up my Openbox howto from the forum and post it on the Wiki.
<Burgundavia> that would be cool
<StormyEyes> Burgundavia, should I join the documentation mailing list if I'm just hacking on the Wiki?
<jsgotangco> http://trigger.cdo.linux.org.ph/2005/10/19/howto-upgrade-from-hoary-to-breezy-from-an-iso/
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, why not simply load the cd in an chose "add a cd" from synaptic?
<jsgotangco> well its fun to do something crazy once in a while
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> like fly to canada
<jsgotangco> lol
<zenrox> who has a web link to the first page of the doucmation for breezy (trying to add it to my bookmarkfile for ff
<jsgotangco>  Safe and text-oriented boot mode for better clarity and
<jsgotangco>  infinite justice on boot.
<jsgotangco> inifinte justice?
<Madpilot> huh?
<highvoltage> yeah, what is infinite justice in the context of new server setups?
<highvoltage> does it mean it will crush microsoft like the worthless worms they are?
<mdke> morning
<highvoltage> morning, mdke
<mdke> heya highvoltage 
<mdke> i saw a picture of you on flikr with Jane and realised finally who you are :)
<mdke> we met briefly at the edubuntu summit
<jsgotangco> hi mdke 
<highvoltage> yes :)
<highvoltage> good memory, there ;)
<mdke> heya jsgotangco 
<mdke> highvoltage, :) I have your goopensource stickers on my laptop
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you hear about our new server?
<jsgotangco> help.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> i mean, the machine
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> we get our own physical server?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i convinced henrik that the linode was too crap
<mdke> so he offered a pronto server
<mdke> :)
<mdke> we're setting it up at the moment
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> can you give me access if possible?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> once it is set up I'll give you a login
<jsgotangco> thanks
<jsgotangco> so we'll move everything there?
<jsgotangco> except the svn
<mdke> well there isn't a lot
<mdke> only the webserver
<mdke> gtg to work
<mdke> see ya later
<highvoltage> mdke: cool :)
<Burgundavia> bloody hell
<Burgundavia> sean just converted the quicktour to docbook
<jsgotangco> nice
* jsgotangco needs to grab trunk soon
<Burgundavia> he likely broke the css however
<jsgotangco> he removed the html?
<Burgundavia> nope, he just converted in parallel
<Madpilot> somebody remind me what the CLI command is to start Yelp w/ a specific document?
<Burgundavia> yelp blah.xml
<Madpilot> thnx
<Burgundavia> well, I need to sleep
<Madpilot> the docbook quicktour won't load for me at all - Yelp throws up a bunch of errors, then just loads the default help page...
<Burgundavia> lovely
* Burgundavia is tempted to simply delete it
<jsgotangco> sure
<Madpilot> (yelp:28423): Yelp-CRITICAL **: history_pop_back: assertion `window->priv->history_back != NULL' failed
<Madpilot> whatever that means in English...
<Burgundavia> well, I pinged Sean and the list about it
<Burgundavia> I will leave it for now
<jsgotangco> reading...
<jsgotangco> what the heck are those files he added
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> should we remove sean from the commit list?
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: what have sean done?
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, non-communication is my biggest worry
<jsgotangco> i don't mind if he's still in commit as long as he does things in a nice way
<jsgotangco> its obvious he's doing the  "see i told you so" thing...
<Burgundavia> I see big changes to our xsl, which I assume means how things look
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: XSL = CSS for XML, AFAIK
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, I assume you have/do speak with him personally?
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: i have spoken to him once when I were in Jo'burg for Linuxworld. He hasn't called / msg'd me recently, I think he's angry at me.
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, he has not spoken on the doc list for quite some time
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, nor has he appeared here
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, we can ask the CC for that i guess
<jsgotangco> and clean up the commit list as well
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> well, I really need to sleep
<Burgundavia> we can talk more tomorrow about it
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> i'll email the list about the meeting tommorow
<jsgotangco> highvoltage, angry at you?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: another 1400Z meeting, right?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, yeah, let's discuss changing that too
<jsgotangco> hi rob^ 
<highvoltage> well, i think he can be real moody
<jsgotangco> that's bad
<rob^> hi jsgotangco 
<rob^> but it comes in your choice of flavours
<rob^> (thats good)
<rob^> gotta love the simpsons
<jsgotangco> lol
<highvoltage> simpsons++
<rob^> mmm dinner
<mdke> jeez froud is a pain in the ass
<mdke> i can't help but feel this latest attempt to get kubuntu docs in a different repository is an attempt to control them
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> of course
<mdke> i agree he should be removed from the commit list unless he provides a satisfactory explanation about whether he is going to play ball
<jsgotangco> i'd kick him off the commit list as well
<mdke> yep
<mdke> we'll see how it goes, and if necessary approach the CC
<mdke> but I think this can be resolved within the group
<mdke> agenda item?
<jsgotangco> hmmm no i don't like that
<jsgotangco> ground rules on committing i guess
<mdke> it will be rare that someone needs to be removed from the list
<mdke> but it will happen I suppose
<jsgotangco> i don't like it, but if he's being a git, its justified
* mdke nods
* rob^ reads
<mdke> ok i gotta do some work
<rob^> I wonder if that will just make it worse, he would still have read-only access to it
<jsgotangco> he can fork if he wants to
<mdke> quite. So long as he doesn't release things into the ditribution
<jsgotangco> ahh its a different story :)
<jsgotangco> his beef is with kubuntu so we'll just make sure we have good content (promised jjesse will write kubuntu for dapper)
<rob^> mdke, I have an idea for the revhistory in the faq guide on help.u.c
<rob^> what if we just used css to shrink the text right down, thus taking up less screen space?
<jsgotangco> rob^, nice idea
<rob^> the change to the css file is one line
<mdke> sure go ahead
<rob^> there, I'm pretty sure that will work
<rob^> (its in branch)
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> question
<jsgotangco> do we start merging
<mdke> asap
<rob^> whats the easiest way to do it?
<jsgotangco> well not that easy really...
<jsgotangco> i can start merging some later...
<jsgotangco> and have the old hoary docs branched
<mdke> best recruit jbailey for help
<rob^> oh, umm the licences are not in the faq guide either, xincludes
<mdke> you just noticed now? :)
<rob^> no the other day
<rob^> :)
<rob^> I'm not that slow :P
<mdke> dunno if fixing that will break the translations
<rob^> yeah..
<jsgotangco> it'll be interesting tommorow :)
<jsgotangco> i should email the list
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob^> wiki still down?
<rob^> oh btw how long do you think the meeting will go tomorrow?
<rob^> it starts at midnight my time, and I now have to work at 6am..
<rob^> could be painful
<mdke> rob^, don't think that css thing has worked, better test it
<rob^> dang
<rob^> I hadn't tested it
<rob^> I just noticed that the revhistory is wrapped in a div with the revhistory class
<rob^> might have to add a class for the <p> tags
<apokryphos> guys, what has happened to the doc.ubuntu.com site then? The broken links were just removed altogether? :/
<apokryphos> a lot of documentation isn't accessible from there; that shouldn't be the case, should it?
<jjesse> no it shouldn't i thought mdke  was working on solving it?
<jjesse> he sent an email to the doc list let me look
<jjesse> problem w/ the index.html got changed according to him
<apokryphos> I know.. why weren't the URLs then just altered? :/
<jjesse> no clue
<mdke> because that site is for previews
<mdke> not docs
<mdke> and currently we have no previews because we have just released our docs
<mdke> and work has not yet started on trunk
<mdke> (for dapper)
<mdke> jjesse, apokryphos ^^
<jjesse> yes mde
<mdke> it says that on the page actually
<mdke> jjesse, we need to add the kubuntu docs to help.ubuntu.com, are they buildable in html?
<jjesse> mdke: to be hinest how would i know?
<mdke> jjesse, i was asking just in case you knew, np I'll try myself
<mdke> the answer is that they don't
<mdke> do "make kall" in branches/breezy/kde
<mdke> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/apps/ksgmltools2/customization/kde-chunk.xsl"
<mdke> cannot parse /usr/share/apps/ksgmltools2/customization/kde-chunk.xsl
<mdke> make: *** [kspec]  Error 4
<mdke> maybe I need to install some stuff
<jjesse> that's not what i get
<mdke> jjesse, it works?
<jjesse> no see http://pastebin.com/399791
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> wonder what I'm missing
<mdke> anyhow, will you see if you can sort it out?
<jjesse> sure will
<mdke> great
<mdke> jjesse, meanwhile can you post me the result of dpkg -S ksgmltools2 ?
<jjesse> mdke: sure can on phone right now
<mdke> thanks
<jjesse> mdke: it's a huge list, http://pastebin.com/399799
<jjesse> i think i got it all, but probablly not :(
<mdke> ah damn my bad
<mdke> anyhow, I got what I wanted :)
<mdke> kdelibs-data is needed to build the docs
<mdke> although I'm not sure why
<jjesse> mdke: i will look into the issues w/ the docbook formating i'm getting
<jjesse> mdke: but right shouldn't the only ones we need in html are the ones released, the kreleasenotes and about-kubuntu?
<mdke> yes i agree
<mdke> isn't the kquickguide done?
<jjesse> mdke: yes sorry
<mdke> yeah, it would be great to get those three up
<jjesse> mdke: no kquickguide actually i think there are changes that still need to be made
<jjesse> mdke: riddell and i finished the about kubuntu and kubuntu release notes
<mdke> okay
<mdke> well those two would be a great start
<jjesse> pardon the stupidity but what needs to be done to make sure they work in html?
<mdke> jjesse, you need to resolve the errors building I guess. In that case, looks like the entities point to a wrong address
<jjesse> mdke: ok added to task list
<judax> jjesse: ping
<jjesse> judax:  ponf
<jjesse> judax:  pong
<judax> jjesse: what time is the doc mtg tomorrow? 1400UTC?
<jjesse> judax: that is what i have marked down in my calendar
<jjesse> i haven't heard elsewise
<judax> jjesse: it is in my calendar and just want to make sure it is right
<judax> what timezone are you in?
<Kamping_Kaiser> judax: 1400 is what im planing for, so i hope its right :|
<jjesse> i am in eastern
<judax> Kamping_Kaiser: ok
<judax> jjesse: so, it is 10am your time tomorrow
<Kamping_Kaiser> 11.30pm for me :( oh well. i should be sleeping now i suppose, so im not useless tonight
<jjesse> correct judax 
<judax> Kamping_Kaiser: sleep? what is that?
<Kamping_Kaiser> judax: what you do to clear your caches and load a new kernel :)
<judax> jjesse: ok, I think I have it all right in calendar, thanks much
<judax> hehe
<jjesse> judax: are you in eastern time zone ?
<judax> jjesse: central
<jjesse> judax: ah so 9am for you then :)
<judax> jjesse: yup
<apokryphos> mdke: ok, so will help.ubuntu.com be the centralised location for the docs?
<mdke> apokryphos, that is correct
<Kinnison> ciao
<froud> Hello I have a rough work in progress example of two col format for pdf. Its just a sketch but would like feedback. Sample is here
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/temp/new.pdf
<froud> Still lots of format problems
<froud> and perhaps could use some col spans
<froud> to break the monotony
<froud> things like TOC can be hidden
<jjesse> froud: that pdf looks cool good job
<froud> jjesse: thanks, do you think the background color etc is a bit off?
<froud> I see the images have transparency in the back so the black above and below
<jjesse> background color is a little dark i think
<froud> I will need to make new images
<froud> dark :-) here is me thinking too light
<jjesse> wo
<froud> Ok will add more white
<froud> Obviously I need to put <?colbreak?> in the right places
<froud> What about the std fonts
<froud> I was hoping change to Verdana
<froud> And make headings a twee bit smaller?
<jjesse> hmm thinking
<jjesse> the headings could me a tad bit smaller
<froud> and body text at Verdana 10
<froud> perhaps another font altogether?
<jjesse> work calls heading into a meeting
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-26
<jsgotangco> hi
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> sean frustrates me
<jsgotangco> well....
<highvoltage> :)_
<jsgotangco> we can talk about it later on the meeting i guess if we hvae time
<Burgundavia> oh, shit the meeting
<Burgundavia> I am going to have to miss it, as I have to be at work at 7am now
<Burgundavia> I forgot to email the list about that
<jsgotangco> as long as we have 1 stand he'll never get his way
<jsgotangco> we could use an evil genius one way or another :)
<jsgotangco> of course when i say 'evil' its in jest :)
<Burgundavia> night
<jsgotangco> Riddell: any reason why i can't resize network settings window at all? I can't go into admin mode
<apokryphos> jsgotangco: network settings window *should* resize; try alt+right-click to expand
<jsgotangco> i couldn't see the Admin mode button at all
<jsgotangco> grrr
<apokryphos> jsgotangco: still can't?
<jsgotangco> yep
<apokryphos> you can't resize the window? You tried with alt, right?
<jsgotangco> i can only do 1024x768 on this laptop
<jsgotangco> yes
<apokryphos> that is more than enough
<jsgotangco> the admin mode button is way way below...
<apokryphos> and what.. it didn't resize?
<jsgotangco> it didn't
<jsgotangco> i was hoping an update would fix that
<apokryphos> hm, the dinwo doesn't go that small -- that's true
<jsgotangco> the other windows work fine though
<jsgotangco> except network settings
<apokryphos> try going to it through kcontrol
<apokryphos> s/dinwo/window/ (how did that come out so wrong :D)
<jsgotangco> i dont have a kcontrol
* jsgotangco kubuntu n00b
<apokryphos> you do
<apokryphos> alt+f2 -> kcontrol
<jsgotangco> ahh that's so much better
<jsgotangco> that's what i miss from 5.04
<jsgotangco> it just says 'loading'
<apokryphos> the systemsettings not going smaller, though, is really a bug; you should report it if you have time
<apokryphos> jsgotangco: another known bug :/
<jsgotangco> gahhh
<apokryphos> jsgotangco: alt+f2 -> kdesu kcontrol  ...instead
<jsgotangco> so i have to resort to ifconfig then...
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> ok let me reload kde first
<rob^> pfft weak.. I have to be at work at 6:30am and the meeting starts midnight my time!
<rob^> bbl thunder storm (and no ups
<jsgotangco> brb
<Kamping_Kaiser> 20:08. almost time for a meeting (well, less then 3 hours iirc)
<mdke> you live in a timezone with a difference of 30 minutes rather than 1 hours? I have never heard of that
<Kamping_Kaiser> +9:30
<Kamping_Kaiser> south australia, NT, japan (i think)
<Kamping_Kaiser> NT=Northern Teritory
* ajmitch knows of a timezone with 45min difference
<mdke> wow
<Kamping_Kaiser> o_0
<Kamping_Kaiser> thats unusual
<mdke> i thought it was all 1 hour difference
<ajmitch> NZ-CHAT
<mdke> that is just silly
<ajmitch> at the moment it's UTC+13:45
<ajmitch> since it's a fair way from mainland NZ
<mdke> hmm
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh. damn kiwis :P
<mdke> even so i don't see the point of complicating people's lives
<ajmitch> doesn't affect many people :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<mdke> even more reason not to do it
<Kamping_Kaiser> not our problem! stop now ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> nearly time
<Kamping_Kaiser> this time for real :|
<mdke> we'll have to see if anyone turns up
* mdke crosses fingers
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh. im wondering after reading the email today :|
<rob^> howdy
<Kamping_Kaiser> hallo rob^. you up for a lot of bug reports?
<rob^> :( no
<rob^> heh
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<rob^> why is that?
<Kamping_Kaiser> well get ready :|
* rob^ checks mail
* Kamping_Kaiser opens bugzilla
<judax> I am here
<rob^> eh looks like a few people are gonna miss the meeting
<Kamping_Kaiser> just a few :S
<rob^> dam
<rob^> soft c***s
<rob^> :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<Kamping_Kaiser> how long do you give ppl to show up in -meeting?
<rob^> I'll give them 5 more minutes
<rob^> hi mdke
<rob^> ok, shall we..
<apokryphos> are the kubuntu etc docs going to be on help.ubuntu.com too?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but they need to be buildable first
<apokryphos> ftr, I think it's a little odd to have side navigation as the only way of getting to them -- the previous way (as it was on d.u.c) was really good; with all the docs listed with brief description (and alternative languages)
<mdke> o.o
<mdke> how did you see that?
<mdke> I was thinking just now that the best thing is to put links in the main body too
<mdke> apokryphos, i'm curious as to how you saw the server tho
<jjesse> apokryphos: i'm wokring on getting the kubuntu docs to build as we speak
<apokryphos> mdke: which server? The old d.u.c?
<mdke> apokryphos, the new one
<apokryphos> aha, it's there now, so I see
<apokryphos> jjesse: nice :)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but how did you get the address goddammit
<mdke> we've been keeping it top secret
<apokryphos> we unfortunately had the wrong page in the #ubuntu topic (the d.u.c), but fixed it the other day, so it's fine now
<apokryphos> mdke: d.u.c? 
<mdke> gah
<mdke> the new server for help.u.c, which has the side navigation, how did you see it?
<apokryphos> er, it was /topic in #ubuntu for ages, and it was in your channel topic too IIRC :-O
<apokryphos> ah
<apokryphos> it took me directly to it; no idea
<mdke> oh awesome
<mdke> they changed the dns already
<mdke> not for doc.u.c though
<rob^> ooh pretty
* rob^ just checked it out
<apokryphos> yup, looks nice now
<mdke> ok doc.ubuntu.com has changed now too
<Kamping_Kaiser> apokryphos: the win/linux app comparisoins. got any around? 
<apokryphos> Kamping_Kaiser: http://kudos.berlios.de/kf/kf1.html#pkgtablestock
<apokryphos> that one's made for Kubuntu
<Kamping_Kaiser> ta. good enough ;)
<apokryphos> there's just such a serious amount of documentation there -- loaads of things (like notes on practically all kde apps)
<jsgotangco> LOTS
<apokryphos> idneed
<apokryphos> or indeed, even
<Kamping_Kaiser> finding docs on what you want in linux is the problem, not finding docs :) suppose thats what we are for
<jsgotangco> the issue on KDE imo is how to make that doc very easy to navigate...
<apokryphos> the kudos one? I'd say it was fairly accessible
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i have to split to a meeting i just sent you an email about other parts of the agenda that i might have a comment on
<Kamping_Kaiser> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=431565#post431565 < = what do ppl think ? saw it on the forums
<mdke> whiprush, ok, mailed to -users, -doc and sounder
<mdke> oh crap
<mdke> stupid evolution buggered up the address
<mdke> remailed
<whiprush> thanks
<whiprush> i'll run it in a few
<Kamping_Kaiser> gawd. 2 am :|
<jjesse> afternoon sorry i had to leave out of the meeting
<whiprush> mdke: any other docteam related stuff you want me to run?
<whiprush> (while I'm at it)
<whiprush> do you guys do meeting summaries or anything?
<jjesse> whiprush: i think meeting summaries have happened in the past
<whiprush> k
<judax> jjesse: the meeting ended right after you left
<jjesse> they always seem so long :(
<judax> nothing beyond doc.u.c was discussed
<judax> they are long, hehe
<jjesse> it's hard to take 1.5 hours of work time and devote to them, oh well
<judax> that is very true
<judax> I made some changes to the kquickguide, in connecting to the internet, still referenced Control Center, but I have been looking over the whole doc
<judax> what was the big stuff that needed to be addressed
<judax> just skimming, but but it talks about adept, katapult, system settings, etc.
<jjesse> judax:  i started to work big time on the kquickguide but then it was decided to just release kreleasenotes and about-kubuntu
<jjesse> the goal for the weekend is to get the docs to build html wise
<judax> yes, we talked about that, they build
<judax> just not the right stylesheet I guess
<judax> but they build just fine
<jjesse> hmm i tried last night and was getting docbook errors
<judax> kquickguide has been pushed
<jjesse> pushed out to the distrobution or to website?
<judax> what file?
<judax> I guess I should revise, I have not tried to build them all
<jjesse> kquickguide
<judax> you dont have kquickguide on your breezy install?
<jjesse> i didn't make it as done
<jjesse> mark it as done
<judax> hmm, it is in khelpcenter under kubuntu docs
<jjesse> my laptop is an upgrade of hoary so i'm not sure, checking other box
<judax> kk
<jjesse> yeah kubuntu quick guide is there, but the stylesheet is not applied
<judax> in khelpcenter?
<jjesse> yeah
<judax> yeah, I think that was the reason sean sent congratulations earlier this week
<jjesse> look at about kubuntu and release notes
<judax> anyway, I just built kquickguide
<judax> and it builds fine, just no stylesheet
<jjesse> i saw some commit
<judax> yes, I see the style difference
<judax> do you know where that style is at?
<jjesse> no i don't, Riddell added it
<judax> he said in the meeting that the kde-web style was in a super secret location
<judax> :)
<jjesse> grin i'll bug him
<judax> got to run for a bit
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> Riddell, do you know what sort of time frame we are talking about for sorting out those stylesheets?
<Riddell> no idea, is it urgent?
<Riddell> monday is you keep poking me hard enough
<mdke> i'm easy about it, but that is because I'm not a kubuntu user
<mdke> it would be nice to have some kubuntu stuff on help.ubuntu.com as well
<mdke> i'll keep poking
<judax> everyone should be a Kubuntu user
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> it is better than cocaine?
<mdke> judax, i like my gnome :)
<judax> mdke: I know, just ribbin ya
<jjesse> mmm kde
<judax> mdke: I have a dedicated ubuntu box that sits next to my kubuntu box
<mdke> overkill!
<judax> just have to see how the other half lives, or doesn't as the case may be :P
<mdke> heh
<judax> mdke: speaking of gnome, have you tried Newton, a personal wiki note taking-type dock app?  It is very cool
<mdke> judax, no i haven't, i'll look it up
<mdke> although I like my moin too :)
<judax> think it is newton.sf.net
<mdke> ah it's not even packaged
<mdke> goddammit
<judax> yes, but the dev is a ubuntu user so, you can get it easily
<judax> it is very cool and the html export is nice
<mdke> hmm that looks nice
<judax> work well, I am using it for note taking of all kind now, work, personal etc
<mdke> the lock isn't massively different to yelp...
<mdke> look*
<judax> yeah, very familiar look, has a brown 'ubuntu' them and a blue one
<judax> s/them/theme
<judax> they had a review in Linux Format magazine this past month, that is how I found it
<jjesse> judax:  i don't know if i told you or not but Riddell  will also be adding the style sheet to the kquickguide doc so release notes, about-kubuntu and kquickguide will all look similar
<mdke> i installed the deb and ran "newton" but nothing has happened
<judax> jjesse: great, thx for letting me know, I won't mess with it
<judax> mdke: it is a dock app
<mdke> doh
<judax> add to panel
<Riddell> Riddell will be attempting too :)
<judax> Riddell: :)
<Riddell> I've never quite got the hang of these docbook tools
<mdke> judax, it is a lot faster than help :)
<judax> mdke: I believe the dev version of newton is not restircted to the panel
<mdke> help/yelp
<judax> mdke: it is very snappy, I have been impressed..and stable
<mdke> we need something like that for docs
<judax> that html export just rocks
<judax> try that when you get a chance
<mdke> cool
<mdke> yeah that rocks
<judax> :-)
<jjesse> does it build on kubuntu?
<jjesse> or is not packaged?
<jjesse> sorry got my terms messed up?
<mdke> there is a deb you can download
<mdke> judax, who develops it?
<judax> I cant remember his name will have to check the magazine
<mdke> it says "dennis"
<mdke> on sf
<judax> jjesse: you may want to check out the development version for kde, since the deb is a gnome panel app
<jjesse> is that .9-2?
<judax> jjesse: I have not tired it on kde yet, but I think the dev talks about that on his site somewhere
<judax> jjesse: think it is the svn head
<judax> jjesse: he talks about that somewhere on his site, read it the other day
<jjesse> reading
<mdke> that is one nice program
<judax> hey, I have to run out for awhile, get the kids, blah blah, talk to you later
<mdke> cya
<jjesse> hmm latest from svn says i need gnome-common module
<jjesse> bummer
<mdke> jjesse, yes it is a gnome app right now i think
<jjesse> it looks like a sweet app
<mdke> yeah it is very nice
<mdke> i'm gonna keep it
<jjesse> ok have a good weekend, i'll be busy don't know how much i'll be on the channel but have a good one
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-27
<Madpilot> odd... Stephan Hermann's blog has just reposted the same batch of old articles to the top of planet.u.c...
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToGetAdobeAcrobatReaderWorking  <-- this doesn't appear to apply to English-language Breezy installs; I just installed Adobe Acrobat Reader last night and it worked right after Synaptic installed it...
<hyperactivecrond> guys i'll do the install guide
<hyperactivecrond> for dapper
<hyperactivecrond> seriously i will
<jabra> anyone around?
<robitaille> yes
<jabra> how is the ubuntu guide for breezy coming?
<jabra> also I wrote up a install guide step-by-step if you guys want it?
<robitaille> http://www.ubuntuguide.org/ has nothing to do with this DocTeam.  So you should talk to them directly since there is not really a collaboration between us and them
<robitaille> As for an install guide, you can send it to the mailing list, or put it on the wiki. Then we can check it out
<jabra> ok sorry for my confusion
<robitaille> no problem.  happens all the time :)
<jabra> where on the wiki should I put it?
<jabra> and which section
<robitaille> why don't you put it in a subsection of your wiki page for now.  Once you are happy with it, you can always move it into a more official location
<jabra> I put it up already online if you want to link it?
<jabra> figured it would be useful last week when breezy was released
<jabra> plus I didn't know if you guys would accept someting since I am not a "official" member of ubuntu yet
<jabra> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/jabra/breezy-docs.html
<robitaille> we access anything that's good and useful.  Why don't you join the mailing list, and then send the link there so that people can comment on it?
<robitaille> s/access/accept
<jabra> google: ubuntu breezy install (5th hit)
<jabra> ok will 
<jabra> let me find it
<robitaille> because it's pretty quiet tonight, so it's not clear how many people are around right now :)
<jabra> right
<jabra> i'll send it to the mailing list
<robitaille> the url doesn't seems to work right now from my home computer
<jabra> i'll net connection is flaky i'll have to check it tomorrow
<jabra> http://www2.shellbot.net:8080/breezy-docs.html
<jabra> if the first is down
<jabra> i'll post those tomorrow
<robitaille> jabra,  it worked.  It just took a while to connect to the server
<jabra> ya
<jabra> ok 
<jabra> wat do you think
<robitaille> looks pretty good.  nice screenshots
<jabra> thanks
<jabra> made some video's of it but that need the vmware codex to play it
<jabra> so I removed the video's
<jabra> well I removed just the link they are still there 
<jabra> tired to make it as easy as possible so anyone could install it 
<jabra> *tried
<jabra> *sent* to the mailing list
<apokryphos> I think it would be a good idea to get a mention of h.u.c on http://www.ubuntu.com/support (currently only the wiki is mentioned)
<rob^> we are
<rob^> :)
* apokryphos runs away singing
<apokryphos> damn skim-reading; ok, good to know
<rob^> xubuntu docs have arrived
<jsgotangco> hi ho
<rob^> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey rob^ 
<jsgotangco> :)
<rob^> everything goes blue :)
<jsgotangco> lol
* jsgotangco is beginning to like blue lately...
<rob^> its perrdy
<jsgotangco> konqueror doesn't seem to like gmail though...
<rob^> heh
<rob^> sometimes evo has a spit about it too
<rob^> night jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> night rob^ 
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> have a good weekend
<rob^> heh its half over
<rob^> bloody work
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:rob^] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Time to start thinking about Dapper | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<rob^> ?
<rob^> what the heck happend there?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:rob^] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Time to start thinking about Dapper | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first
<rob^> ah I get it
<hyperactivecrond> i'll do the install guide
<hyperactivecrond> for dapper
<sivang> hi all
<sivang> how do I start a page in a wiki and specify the template so the template's content will get there?
<hyperactivecrond> once again i'll do the ubuntu install guide
<hyperactivecrond> for dapper
<hyperactivecrond> i'll write it
<jsgotangco> it won't be possible till a milestone cd gets released :)
<jsgotangco> but nice to plan it early on aye
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> night
<Kamping_Kaiser> ngiht
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-28
<Belutz> hello
<Belutz> where should i write correction suggestion for the faqguide ?
<n1c0las> Hi Belutz
<Belutz> hi n1c0las 
<n1c0las> did you chech the new doc.ubuntu.com?
<Belutz> not yet
<Belutz> i was seeing help.ubuntu.com
<n1c0las> This one just went live and should contain answers to all your questions regarding helping out
<n1c0las> help.u.c. is for help about ubuntu
<n1c0las> doc.u.c is for the DocTeam
<Belutz> i see
<Belutz> ok, i'll dig it out :-)
<n1c0las> have fun
<rob^> Belutz, just file a bug report in bugzilla on the faq guide
<jsgotangco> hi all
<Madpilot> lo
<bhuvan> anybody out there from wikiteam ?
<Madpilot> bhuvan: me, I guess. What's up?
<bhuvan> oh, ok. is there any time consuming mandatory wiki re-organisation work to be done ? if yes, let me know. i can contribute my time and improve it.
<Madpilot> bhuvan: are you on the docteam mailing list? 
<bhuvan> if you mean ubuntu-doc, yes.
<Madpilot> That might be a better place to ask
<mdke> bhuvan, if you look at CategoryCleanup, you'll see some pages that need love
<mdke> that is a good place to start
<bhuvan> ok
* mdke yearns to get on planet
<bhuvan> ok, if you dont mind, could you please explain what kind of clean up work is required ? if you explain for one component, it's more than suffice
<mdke> bhuvan, basically some pages are not good guides
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> let's take an example
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> number 139
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostFix
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> that guide is totally unintelligible to normal users
<mdke> and doesn't explain any of the steps
<mdke> as well as being badly formatted
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> i understand, let me clean-up couple of pages based on my existing domain knowledge :)
<mdke> cool, thanks and good luck
<Burgundavia> mdke, freezing wiki pages is crack
<Burgundavia> and one wiki for all things is also crack
<Burgundavia> we are the only distro to do it, afaik
<mdke> as always, you are charming
<mdke> nice to see you too
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mdke> are you saying freezing documentation is crack?
<Burgundavia> yes and no
<mdke> (that IS what you're saying)
<Burgundavia> freezing docs for translation is not crack
<mdke> the point of having our own wiki would be to allow only the docteam to edit it
<Burgundavia> hmm, not what i imagined
<mdke> well that is the only possible purpose of having yet another wiki
<Burgundavia> no it isn't
<mdke> in my opinion it is
<mdke> it is intended as a dynamic website basically, we can do what we like with it
<Burgundavia> I want a seperate wiki so that people don't go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BluetoothSupport?highlight=%28CategorySpec%29 and expect to find help about bluetooth
<Burgundavia> because they would go to help.ubuntu.com/wiki/Bluetooth and KNOW that they will find help there
<mdke> Burgundavia, i don't think that that is a major problem.
<mdke> they can search
<Burgundavia> mdke, it is
<Burgundavia> mdke, search is crap
<mdke> why is it a major problem?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot and I have talked about this a fair amount
<Burgundavia> mdke, libraries put information in different sections for a reason
<Burgundavia> the current wiki is basically a non-cateogrized library
<Burgundavia> where you might find fiction is amongst the non-fiction
<Madpilot> hmmm... is someone taking my name in vain?
<Madpilot> ;)
<mdke> yes, but why is that a major problem
<Madpilot> hi all
<mdke> hi Madpilot 
<Burgundavia> mdke, because a lot of the specs are at confusing names
<mdke> so what?
<mdke> how long does it take the user to figure out that he is not going to get help at that page?
<Burgundavia> mdke, as mpt says, by the time people go looking for help, it better be there
<mdke> 10 seconds?
<mdke> ah
<Burgundavia> every barrier you put in the way is a bad thing
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> specs occupying the same space as docs is really not working
<Burgundavia> the random laptop testing/motu chatter isn't bad
<mdke> right, but don't forget that the wiki is not our primary documentation source, loads of stuff there is unreliable
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes, but better visibility would lead to better editing
<mdke> anyhow, moving the documentation section is not the only solution
<Burgundavia> "if you build it, they will come"
<mdke> but most of all, if you want to move that stuff, you better go somewhere higher than the -doc mailing list
<mdke> i think a solution would be to hive the specs off, myself
<mdke> to a subpage
<Burgundavia> yes, but the specs and the other dev chatter belongs together
<Burgundavia> it is easier to hive off the docs, at this point
<Madpilot> a thought: "dev.ubuntu.com" or something similar for the specs, BOFs and such...
<Madpilot> leave the user-side stuff at wiki.u.c
<mdke> oh well
<Burgundavia> we do need to do something
<mdke> the command to merge the specs into the main wiki came from mark
<Burgundavia> we are racing towards a brick wall fast
<mdke> so you better talk to him
<Burgundavia> mdke, hence why I sensed that it would be easier to hive off the docs
<mdke> that would still require you to talk to him
<mdke> especially since we can't just move them to help.u.c
<Burgundavia> shall I raise it at UBZ?
<mdke> the server wouldn't take it
<Burgundavia> mdke, ok
<Burgundavia> mdke,  ignoring the current technical issues, do you still oppose moving the wiki to help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> i will think about it, i'm not sure
<mdke> probably yes
<Burgundavia> what do you see as the solution to better docs from the wiki?
<mdke> i don't think there is one
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: remember how many people know the current wiki URLs - moving the non-user-side stuff would be easier
<mdke> unless the manpower increases, and we can make a team of editors
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes, but that can be solved by redirects
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: messy
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, not doing anything is going to be messier
<Burgundavia> mdke, I don't see more people emerging under the current situatin
<Madpilot> people are going to notice if, say, RestrictedFormats goes somewhere. Far fewer will be affected if the dev stuff is moved off...
* Burgundavia also wants mediawiki on help.u.c, but that is a fight for another day
<mdke> that is not going to happen
<Burgundavia> why not?
<mdke> because the idea was to use moin and apply access controls so as to create a dynamic website for us
<Burgundavia> huh?
<mdke> as a precursor to moving all the ubuntu website to moin
<mdke> a sort of test run
<Burgundavia> moving the entire site to moin?
<mdke> yep
<mdke> instead of that plone crap
<Burgundavia> right
* Burgundavia is feeling discouraged
<mdke> moin is excellent, stop whinging
<mdke> its quite good as a CMS
<Burgundavia> moin is complete and total crap from a user perspective
<Burgundavia> search is crap
<Burgundavia> presentation is crap
<mdke> presentation is 100% configurable
<Burgundavia> markup is crap
<Burgundavia> edit is crap
<mdke> jeez you don't let go do you
<Burgundavia> no, I don;t
<mdke> well let go
<mdke> it's boring
<mdke> file bugs with moin if you don't like it and try and improve it
<Burgundavia> I am not a programmer, nor will I likely ever be
<mdke> oh well
<mdke> you are good at filing bugs
<Burgundavia> from a user perspective, moin is kicked around the block by medawiki
<mdke> try installing moin and play around with things
<mdke> you will find it very configurable
<Burgundavia> now, I completely understand it has performance issues and is PHP
<Burgundavia> can I drop CamelCase?
<mdke> of course
<mdke> but you can anyway
<mdke> btw have you ever seen newton (.sf.net)
<mdke> it is a little personal note taker wiki thing
<mdke> for gnome
<mdke> it is lovely
<Burgundavia> I have played with it
<Burgundavia> I have hard time fitting something like newton or tomboy into my workflow
<mdke> ah well
<mdke> its a good way of writing webpages quickly :)
<mdke> let's sleep on this help business
<Belutz> hello all
<mdke> i was thinking I would like to get more wiki docs into the distro, I might play around with putting some in xml
<mdke> hi Belutz 
<Belutz> may I use the faqguide to train other people?
<Burgundavia> mdke, what version of moin do we run?
<Belutz> like print it, and give it away to the trainee
<mdke> Burgundavia, where?
<mdke> Belutz, course
<Burgundavia> mdke, wiki.u and help.u
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo
<mdke> there is no moin on help.u.c yet
<Belutz> mdke, and is it ok if I alter some of the faqguide ? like the dvd section?
<mdke> Belutz, i don't know about that, you'll have to read the licence I'm afraid
<mdke> probably ok
<Belutz> mdke, ok, thanks for the info :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, to be honest, one of my huge issues with the ubuntu wiki is lack of responsiveness on hendriks part
<Burgundavia> mdke, I have emailed him several times and got absolutely no response
<mdke> sorry to hear that
<Burgundavia> I intend to deal with that at UBZ
<mdke> you using henrik@u.c?
<mdke> he is good with email
<mdke> although probably not with bugzilla
<Burgundavia> to be honest, I gave up trying to contact him about 2 or 3 months ago
<mdke> unlikely that he will be at UBZ
<mdke> is there a list of attendees?
<mdke> ah i see it
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/Attendees
<Burgundavia> he won't be there
<mdke> no
<Burgundavia> I am very interested in getting together with mpt and brainstorming about the wiki and help in general
<mdke> go ahead
<mdke> i'm going for a shower
<Burgundavia> http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/Project/Wiki/MediaWikiFAQ
<mdke> Burgundavia, i've gotta go now, check out wiki.ubuntuusers.de for some nice work with moin
<Kamping_Kaiser> rob^: you about?
<jsgotangco> i doubt
<jsgotangco> heh
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol. ok
<Kamping_Kaiser> i was wondering if i should file bugs on sugestions, or (as i was going to do) ask him about it personaly
<jsgotangco> file it for personal torture :)
<jsgotangco> seriously though, you can file it as a wishlist
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. its jsut the wording sounds strange to me, but ok. ill stab myself in the face a bit more ;)
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: you're going to drive rob^ crazy heh
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol. 
<Kamping_Kaiser> why?
<jsgotangco> most of the doc bugs atm are always on him
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol. i tried to pick 'serious' ones :|
<Kamping_Kaiser> i skipped most of the spelling errors for the moment
<mdke> best thing is to wait for us/jbailey to merge the tree, then fix them yourself and send a patch
<Kamping_Kaiser> so should i bugzilla them with patch? or should i just email the list with patch?
<mdke> email the list
<mdke> but not until the merge has been done
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. ill wait :)
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, we have a wiki page which explains how to make and test patches, it is DocteamStepbyStepRepository
<mdke> that is a good page to get to know early on
<Kamping_Kaiser> i had a quick look, so i will try to find time to go more in depth tomorrow (or might wait for the merge then redownload the svn sources)
<mdke> you don't need to redownload it
<mdke> "svn up" will update the source
<mdke> do it from the top level directory
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks. should i expect the merge soon? or ask in a week or so about it? 
<mdke> yes jbailey said he would try and have a go on monday
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. so some time today :) thanks. 
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<mdke> hiya jerome
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, monday for jeff is another 24 hours away, give or take
<Kamping_Kaiser> loll. ok mdke. ill bear it on mind ;)
<jsgotangco> mdke: there's no such thing as xubuntu atm, its a universe meta-package :(
<jsgotangco> dunno why there's a need to even do stuff for it
<mdke> well presumably the meta package points at some xfce packages?
<mdke> even so, we don't need to fork their docs IMO
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> mdke: i'd really just focus on partner projects really...
<mdke> agreed
<jsgotangco> now that we have an ubuntu server, a server guide is more desired imo
<mdke> yeah that would rock
<jsgotangco> *sigh*
<mdke> ?
<jsgotangco> need focus/alignment
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> that will come
<mdke> i gtg
<jsgotangco> i got to sleep
<jsgotangco> :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> latermate :0
<hyperactivecrond> i'll do the install guide for dapper
<hyperactivecrond> s/do/write
<hyperactivecrond> ok it says that we need a install guide written, yes?
<hyperactivecrond> whoops... it would help if we did put out a milestone cd b4 i write an install guide
<N6REJ> apokryphos: I need some help
<Kinnison> Hihi
<ajmitch> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-29
<Burgundavia> ah shit
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ping
<rob^> haha
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: edit conflict there
<Madpilot> I'm reverting
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, we should be good now
<Madpilot> I think so...
<Burgundavia> who did that?
<Madpilot> did what?
<Madpilot> I was restoring RootSudo, and setting up RootPrivs as a redirect
<Burgundavia> the orginal redirect away from RootSudo?
<Madpilot> there was never a redirect from RS to RP, just a link
<Burgundavia> it ended up a circular redirect for a second there
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: OK, it's all good now, RootSudo is back and RootPrivs is a redirect to RS
* Burgundavia curses the primitive history features of moinmoin
<Madpilot> I had thought that RootPrivileges was new, but it's been around a while, lurking...
<Madpilot> AndrewZajac2 seems to have done the moving, and of course he doesn't have a wiki page or contact point...
<Burgundavia> he does actually
<Burgundavia> arzajac at yahoo dot ca
<Burgundavia> did Andrew move it from RootSudo to RootPrivs?
<Burgundavia> I am confused
<Madpilot> ... so am I, now
<Madpilot> ;)
<Burgundavia> it looks like RootSudo just got recreated
<Burgundavia> somebody must have moved it to RootPrivs a while back
<jsgotangco> whats up
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we had a minor mess with RootSudo and RootPrivs
<Madpilot> I think RootSudo was deleted, then restored by Andrew, so we may be blaming him unfairly...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, this kind of stupidity lead the mediawiki devs to put page moves in the history
<Burgundavia> a feature that should be ported to moin
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: see RecentChanges for the entertainment - Burgundavia and I were editing at cross-purposes for a minute there...
<Burgundavia> and moin does not appear to have a undelete
<jsgotangco> wiki love :)
<Burgundavia> the wiki not appearing to save edits is a major issue
<Burgundavia> ok, it does have an undelete
<Burgundavia> it is just hidden
<Madpilot> OK, here's an oddity...
<Burgundavia> hmm?
<Madpilot> how often are the Category<Whatever> pages rebuilt for addition/deletions? I thought it was instant
<Burgundavia> so did I
<Madpilot> check out CatCleanup - WikiGuide is still there - but when you check WikiGuide, the only Category it appears in is Documentation
* jsgotangco patiently downloads trunk
<rob^> have branch and trunk been resynced yet?
<jsgotangco> nope
<rob^> didn't think so
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: ping
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, pong
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I've figured out what happened to RootSudo
<Madpilot> it wasn't deleted
<Madpilot> it was renamed RootPrivs
<Burgundavia> ah
<rob^> heh
<Burgundavia> and who did that?
* Burgundavia readies his bat
<Madpilot> then AndrewZajac2 built a NEW RootSudo, as a sort of redirect
<rob^> this is the kind of page that needs to me moved to our controled wiki
<Burgundavia> hmm
<rob^> s/me/be
<Madpilot> 2005-10-23 22:51:06 Mauriciohernande -- a more general and clear name <-- looks like he renamed it
<Burgundavia> moving and deleting pages needs to removed from general users
<Burgundavia> but splitting the wikis is a bad thing, unless we move all docs
<rob^> can't we just do a redirect?
<Burgundavia> an interwiki one
<rob^> yeah
<Burgundavia> that gets nasty
<rob^> sounds like a problem with moin
<Burgundavia> "good urls never die"
<rob^> hence redirect
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> oh, nasty argument brewing over at wikipedia
<rob^> the chan?
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tools/1-Click_Answers
<Burgundavia> anyway, I disgress
<Burgundavia> I really don't like the idea of splitting the docs
<Burgundavia> it hasn't work in the past, with the freezing attempt
<Burgundavia> s/work/worked
<rob^> really the wiki team need control of the wiki, its kind of stupid otherwise
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> http://www.cafepress.com/lesbianlinux
<Burgundavia> it is dumb that anybody can delete or move
<Burgundavia> as it has been shown that people cannot be trusted with this
<Burgundavia> salut bhuvan 
<mdke> morning
<rob^> hi
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi mdke
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi rob^
<rob^> hmm operating 2 pcs, a laptop and an xbox at the same time is fun
<mdke> some crack going on with the wiki?
<rob^> apprently
<Burgundavia> mdke, both Madpilot and myself trying to fix the same issue at the same time
<mdke> ah
<mdke> well the crack must have been that there was an issue in the first place right?
<Burgundavia> yes, someone moved RootSudo
<Kamping_Kaiser> o_0
<mdke> ooh
<mdke> i mean, oof
<rob^> does one need a wireless access point to have a wireless network? or just network cards?
<Burgundavia> you can do ad-hoc with 2 wireless cards
<Kamping_Kaiser> you can have just cards
<Kamping_Kaiser> 2+ cards cant you?
<rob^> so more then 2 I need an ap
<mdke> the guy who moved RootSudo is active on the mailing list, you can tick him off
<mdke> he is often in here too, nick of mhz
<mdke> although yeah, the name RootPrivileges was better
<Burgundavia> regardless, the mover didn't put a redirect in place
<mdke> indeed
<mdke> hence the ticking off needed
<jsgotangco> hmm so mhz did something?
<mdke> on the italian wiki we disabled deletion and renaming
<mdke> except for admins
<Burgundavia> mdke, sounds sane to me
<mdke> yeah well the italian wiki does not get so much editing i guess
<mdke> if we implemented it on the ubuntu wiki we'd need to set up a deletion/renaming request system
<mdke> i'll talk to henrik about it
<jsgotangco> ACLs
<Burgundavia> that is pretty easy, we just need a page for it
<mdke> yeah
* mdke goes to work
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, how do you connect with people on linkedin?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, do you follow the method that involves you manually entering their email addy?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> its much faster to do that if you know the person
<Burgundavia> hmm
<jsgotangco> i have a contact that has like 300 people on his list
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> bob2 = Rob Wier, no?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: yes
* Madpilot has just irritated a "leet" ET player enough to get kicked from a server... ;)
<Burgundavia> http://www.happypenguin.org/show?Warsow
<jsgotangco> ahh too bad mako's not coming on UBZ
<Burgundavia> holy crap wikipedia has some good mappers --> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Karte_baikal2.png
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no, why not?
<jsgotangco> well he said on his blog he's skipping UBZ
<Burgundavia> ya, just read that
<rob^> grr why are my mp3s playing at twice the speed?
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> because you;re in the future rob^ ....
<rob^> according to the clock on the pc I'm three hours into the future too
<rob^> wf?
<rob^> s/wf?/wtf?
<rob^> grr
<jsgotangco> haha
<rob^> its only doing it in gnome apps
<mdke> Burgundavia, ping
<mdke> i have an idea
<mdke> let's start brainstorming on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWiki and see if we can make it into a decent spec for some wide-ranging wiki changes
<jsgotangco> checking...
<mdke> jsgotangco, there  is nothing there
<jsgotangco> ahhh ok
<mdke> but it is an available spec :)
<jsgotangco> wow opera just crashed on gmail
<Madpilot> could that spec include things like "move the MOTU/dev/spec pages to a seperate wiki somewhere"?
<Madpilot> dev.ubuntu.com or something
<rob^> but doesn't that still need to be a wiki
<rob^> so yet another wiki to maintain etc
<Madpilot> yeah, I know, but would get the actual user docs seperated from the dev docs
<mdke> Madpilot, the idea was possibly to separate the user docs by moving those
<mdke> corey's idea at least
<mdke> leaving the main wiki for all those development activities
<Madpilot> yikes... that's a way bigger and messier job than moving the dev stuff
<mdke> actually I'm not sure it is
<Madpilot> no?
<Madpilot> I'd assumed that the doc side of the current wiki was larger, but maybe not
<rob^> is going to take a bit of work either way
<rob^> and moving to our own wiki means we have control
<Madpilot> the other reason to leave the user docs where they are is that people know those URLs already
<mdke> Madpilot, i'm not sure, but in any case moving pages is pretty easy with moin
<mdke> there are a number of options for the URLs
<mdke> anyhow, this sort of thing is what will benefit from some brainstorming on a spec
<rob^> just point wiki.u.c to the new wiki, and dev.w.c to the dev one
<rob^> err that should be dev.u.c
<mdke> rob^, part of my reasoning for moving the docs would be to have them at the same place as the static docs (help.u.c)
<mdke> fragmented documentation is bad
<jsgotangco> aye
<rob^> but won't that mean people will just start new docs on the old wiki
<jsgotangco> no extra wikis for me
<rob^> ?
<rob^> the idea is people can improve and contribute
<rob^> I think all we need to do is have normal user accounts limited moreso
<mdke> rob^, if we had a wiki at help.u.c it would not be locked down, people can improve and contribute there
<mdke> nah, there are more problems than just that
<mdke> anyhow, i'll work on the spec for a while, and see if I can convince you
<mdke> and myself
<rob^> I'll check it out
<rob^> setting up moin isn't a trivial task
<mdke> it will be set up anyhow
<mdke> Madpilot, for an option with regard to the URLs, we tried moving the Italian wiki recently, see e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItalianSudo for what we did
<rob^> and we will need ssh access to the server to properly administer it
<jsgotangco> err how do you move between channels in irssi?
<mdke> dude
<mdke> we have ssh access already
<rob^> ?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<rob^> we do?
<mdke> jsgotangco, alt + number or arrow key
<mdke> rob^, how the hell do you think all our docs are there?
<jsgotangco> well the user at least...
<rob^> some asked?
<jsgotangco> mdke: ahh nice...
<rob^> s/some/someone
<Madpilot> mdke: yeah, I saw the Italian changes to streaming past in RecentChanges
<jsgotangco> rob^: i have access but i don't use it
<mdke> Madpilot, another option would be to use "refresh"
<mdke> although that isn't currently active on our wiki
<rob^> how does one accquire access to said server?
<jsgotangco> just ask mdke  the account...
<mdke> rob^, the doc.u.c and help.u.c server is admined by me and henrik
<jsgotangco> its just one account really...
<Madpilot> mdke: either way, doing it that way puts an extra layer between people and resources...
<jsgotangco> well anyway because it was moved, its another ACL
<jsgotangco> the last one was with lindoe
<rob^> is it your own server or a shared server?
<jsgotangco> rob^: serverpronto
<mdke> Madpilot, only for the purposes of the old URLs, there is no extra layer once people get used to the new ones
<rob^> ah
<rob^> ubuntu paying for it?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> yes
<rob^> nice
<mdke> jsgotangco, actually I didn't give you a login yet iirc
<mdke> you say i did?
<jsgotangco> mdke: no the old one i meant
<jsgotangco> not the server pronto
<mdke> ah
<jsgotangco> no rush
<jsgotangco> until we have a use for such
<mdke> i'll give you logins to the new one. although please don't use em for heavy backup or anything
<mdke> what usernames do you want?
<jsgotangco> heavy backup? *shudder*
<rob^> heh
<jsgotangco> mdke: i'll create a chroot in no time :) joke
<mdke> hmm
<rob^> hmm I just realised I have an mp3 copy of the hackers movie soundtrack..
<mdke> well we have 100GB left
<rob^> how did that get there?
<jsgotangco> 100GB of storage? wow
<rob^> overkill?
<jsgotangco> well if they buy in bulk that's cheap
<rob^> yeah
<mdke> that is just the package they offered
<jsgotangco> mdke: we can try it for baz & bzr expermentation though
<jsgotangco> it won't eat up a lot of space and bandwidth
<mdke> guess so
<rob^> hey would you all prefer me to just do a one page (ie short) faq guide for xubuntu instead of the ug (as per my email)?
<mdke> yes, if that :)
<jsgotangco> dunno i don't use xfce..didn't like it
<jsgotangco> i'd rather use ion2 than that hehehe...
<rob^> its pretty nice on older hardware, gnome like environment that doesn't slow your old pc down 
<jsgotangco> yeah anything gtk runs too
<mdke> i will try it
<rob^> well its kind of gnome like, as in it uses gtk2
<mdke> but tbh xubuntu is not high priority
<rob^> no, its not
<mdke> it is not a "partner" as jerome says
<mdke> and it has its own guide
<rob^> never said it was..
<mdke> unless we see that the guide isn't valid, then i think we should concentrate elsewhere
<rob^> well I was thinking of just adding ubuntu related info to it anyway
<jsgotangco> well imo rob^ should do as he pleases on xubuntu if he wants too...we can't pin him down to do stuff that interests him :)
<jsgotangco> but he's riddled with bugzilla bugs atm :)
<mdke> sure
<rob^> umm about 10 I think
<jsgotangco> wow did trunk shrink?
<jsgotangco> its only 180MB now
<rob^> yeah either way xubuntu will be low priority, I'd rather see the kubuntu faq guide done first
<jsgotangco> compared to the previous 250+
<mdke> i think kde upstream is gone
<mdke> ok i'm gonna do some work
<Burgundavia> mdke, ok, will do
<Burgundavia> mdke, night all
<rob^> what happen to BetterWiki?
<mdke> it is now BetterWikiDocs
<rob^> ah
<mdke> jbailey, have you made any progress with the merge? can we help?
<jbailey> mdke: I didn't, sorry.  Friday got crazy on me, and I'm still settling in from the weekend.
* mdke nods
<jjesse> slow day?
<jjesse> :)
<jjesse> hiya apokryphos 
<apokryphos> hey
<apokryphos> how's it going
<jjesse> going well, getting started on KUDOS -> docbook
<apokryphos> wow, quite a mission
<apokryphos> will be real useful though =)
<jjesse> yeah right now i'm looking to see what the difference between the FAQ Guide and KUDOS is, how much we can steal :)
<jjesse> what's there something posted to the list about opening in openoffice and saving in docbook format?
<apokryphos> why use that when you have Quanta+ and Kate ;-)
<apokryphos> (good article on Quanta+ as docbook editor not too long ago: http://dot.kde.org/1124997856/ )
<jjesse> i use kate right now
<apokryphos> quanta has more features, but has quite a few UI issues
<apokryphos> quite a few anti-kde-ers pick it out as a "bloated program", but really it's just featureful, without a perfect UI :D
<jjesse> hmm i'll look into it
<apokryphos> http://quanta.kdewebdev.org/tutorials/quanta-docbook/quanta-toolbars.png pretty much sums up a lot of the problems; widgets in widgets
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-30
<DouglasBrown> Hi, what is the standard thing to do if two pages exist on the wiki that cover the same ground but need updating? Update both?
<Kinnison> ciao
<bhuvan> anybody out there from wikiteam ?
<bhuvan> knock knock .. anybody out there from wikiteam ?
<Madpilot> hi bhuvan
<bhuvan> hello
<Madpilot> what's up?
<bhuvan> i've made changes to subversion document, wiki.u.c/SubVersion
<bhuvan> it's in CategoryCleanup. can you check and let me move it off to CategoryDocumentation and UserDocumentation ?
<Madpilot> I'm reading it now; I've never really used SVN, though - except to get the Ubuntu Docs. 
<bhuvan> ok
<Madpilot> one minor point: Ubuntu and Linux should always be capitalized
<bhuvan> oh, ok
<Madpilot> under Installation, you should probably mention which repository SVN is in
<Madpilot> Universe, I assume
<bhuvan> ok
<ajmitch> main
<ajmitch> it's too important a tool to have in universe :)
<Madpilot> ajmitch: thanks
<Madpilot> bhuvan: as it's in Main, you don't even need to mention extra repos - Main is always enabled, AFAIK
<bhuvan> repos, i meant here is root directory. under this directory, we can have many projects. under projects, it may contain main, trunk, tags
<Madpilot> bhuvan: sorry, I was talking about the Installation section, not the parts about actually using SVN
<bhuvan> ok
<Madpilot> also there's no real need to mention root access - just sudo. link to RootSudo might be a good idea
<bhuvan> oh, ok
<bhuvan> Madpilot: any other corrections ?
<Madpilot> one more under Installation: if you're giving console commands like apt-get, put them inside a code box
<bhuvan> ok
<Madpilot> apt-get install subversion 
<Madpilot> apt-get install libapache2-svn
<Madpilot> gah...
<bhuvan> yeah
<Madpilot> put {{{ before that and }}} after that
<Madpilot> on seperate lines
<bhuvan> yeah, i got your point
<whiprush> ah
<Burgundavia> salut whiprush 
<ajmitch> whiprush!
<whiprush> hello corey/aj
<ajmitch> what's new on the fridge?
<whiprush> Burgundavia: in case I keep missing docteam meetings... please let the guys know that the fridge is ready to showcase their content. :D
<whiprush> ajmitch: waiting for jdub to wake up to run a universe tour I did.
<Burgundavia> whiprush, ok. The person that really needs to start writing is me, but I have been lazy
<ajmitch> ah nice
<whiprush> Burgundavia: well then, we're in the same club. :D
<ajmitch> last I heard he was in spain
<Burgundavia> whiprush, do you support full html entries>?
<whiprush> but, if someone does a really kickass wiki page or something, there's no reason why we couldn't do a feature on it.
<Burgundavia> ok
<whiprush> Burgundavia: ironically, when jdub switches my account to allow full html I lose all editing priviledges.
* Burgundavia hasn't seen any really kickass wikis yet
<whiprush> so he just has to turn it into html in the options.
<Burgundavia> hmm, that is odd
<whiprush> Burgundavia: well, I've seen some pages that are better than 90% of the existing crap out there, so it's a start
<Burgundavia> shall we start showcasing them at one per week?
<whiprush> we could.
<whiprush> jsgontanco and I talked about it briefly at udu.
<Burgundavia> you going to be at UBZ?
<whiprush> basically, follow the docteam on whatever scrub mission it's on.
<whiprush> going to try to make love day.
<Burgundavia> that would be cool
<whiprush> yeah, gonna try
<whiprush> spent all my money at the gnome summit
<whiprush> but jdub is the fridgemeister, so whatever you guys figure out will work.
<Burgundavia> luckily I just started a new job, so I have some right now
<whiprush> but anyway, if you've got someone coming to you itching to write cool stuff about ubuntu, feel free to send them my way
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> have you talked to the marketing team yet?
<whiprush> and we should definately use it as a showcase of good wiki stuff.
<whiprush> I'm on the list.
<Burgundavia> ok, I am seeing lots of hotair so far
<whiprush> well, we all have "cool ideas"
<whiprush> it's that dang implementation thing getting in the way. :D
<whiprush> Burgundavia: see jane silber at ubz wrt the marketing stuff
<whiprush> she's rocking.
<Burgundavia> I wish to could do more with marketing
<whiprush> don't we all
<Burgundavia> but I will not be doing anything with ubuntu marketing for the forseeable future
<Burgundavia> due to my current job
<Burgundavia> whiprush, I will fire you some wiki pages by tonight
<whiprush> ok rocking.
<Madpilot> decent wiki pages... I like to think that BasicCommands works
<Burgundavia> whiprush, here is an excellent one to begin the process with
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BasicCommands
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: great minds run in the same gutters ;)
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
* Burgundavia goes to town on UserDocumentation
<whiprush> Burgundavia: cool dude I'll check those tomorrow
<mdke> Madpilot, if you and corey have any thoughts on that BetterWikiDocs spec, please add em!
<rob^> hi mdke 
<mdke> hello
<mdke> rob^, any luck on fixing those xinclude errors?
<rob^> no, I haven't had time to have a look
<rob^> picked up extra shifts at work in the last week
<mdke> ah
<mdke> bummer
<Madpilot> mdke: will do; I had a look at it a few days ago, but not recently
<rob^> yeah, considering I don't get paid anymore for em
<mdke> Madpilot, we only wrote it yesterday
<mdke> and it was mainly inspired by corey's idea so make sure he looks at it
<Madpilot> mdke: I guess it was only yesterday I read it, then... it's been a long week already, and it's only (barely) Tuesday here...
<mdke> :)
<Madpilot> mdke: Corey's signed up on the BetterWikiDocs page already, so he's aware of it
<mdke> i signed him up, but yes, I think he is aware of it
<jsgotangco> hey all
<ajmitch> hi
<mdke> hi
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<jsgotangco> nice spec
<mdke> thanks, it's still early days yet
* mdke is still aching to get onto planet
* ajmitch isn't on planet either ;)
<jsgotangco> heh bug jdub
<mdke> its a crying shame
<mdke> that the two most fascinating people in the Ubuntu community don't have a voice
<jsgotangco> who?
<mdke> me and ajmitch 
<mdke> you other guys are well boring
<jsgotangco> right
<mdke> :p
<jsgotangco> at least i don't blog about useless stuff
<mdke> nice post about the accessibility thing btw
<mdke> i did it this morning
<jsgotangco> its hard
<mdke> (handsfreememail)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> especially since gok crashes on me
<jsgotangco> im pretty insterested in accessibility lately
* ajmitch is hardly interesting
<mdke> i was chatting to henrik yesterday about it
<mdke> he gave me a few cheats :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> he is the only one who can do completely hands free though
<jsgotangco> i have been busy lately :(
<jsgotangco> after i see completed specs i start working...
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> but for now i focus on adjusting to my new job
<jsgotangco> i've been reading a lot on kde docs
<jsgotangco> im in a friend's cafe that has been invaded by linspire
<jsgotangco> good thing i have a live cd
<jsgotangco> mdke, where are the translations in d.u.c?
<jsgotangco> i mean help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> jsgotangco, replace C with country code
<jsgotangco> mdke, its not linked at all :(
<mdke> correct
<mdke> henrik suggested during the meeting that we use a wiki page
<mdke> so locoteams can do it, and if they move docs to their own server, amend the links
<jsgotangco> right...
<bhuvan> hello there, i'm unable to edit wiki pages. it reports, auth database is temporarily unavailable.
<bhuvan> any maintenance work in progress ?
<mdke> yes
<bhuvan> the problem is in wiki.u.c ..
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> should be about 30 minutes
<bhuvan> oh, ok
<mdke> btw the auth database is at launchpad.net
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> ok brb
<bhuvan> in future, atleast we can set this as a channel message or wiki broadcast message :)
<mdke> it was announced on -devel and #launchpad
<bhuvan> oh, ok! so, i must join #launchpad :)
<bhuvan> how can we set TOC in moin ?
<bhuvan> TOC - table of contents
<bhuvan> in mediawiki it's set by default based on head{%d}. how about moin ?
<mdke> [[TableOfContents] ] 
<mdke> see HelpOnMacros
<bhuvan> ok, thankx
<bhuvan> what's the status of rss implementation for RecentChanges page in moin ?
<Seveas> rob^, there?
<jjesse> morning :)
<Seveas> hi jjesse 
<Seveas> thanks for your e-mail
<jjesse> morning Seveas 
<jjesse> your welcome
<Seveas> I'd like to see you and rob^ as members for all the good work, but we need a few statements from other people
<Seveas> is there anywone here who can vouvh for your work?
<Seveas> vouch*
<jjesse> Seveas: anyone here, Riddell  can as well
<Seveas> ok, nice
<Seveas> (ah, you mailed me again -- so much for my impatience :))
<jjesse> grin no worries
<Seveas> Riddell, ping?
<mdke> Seveas, sure
<mdke> rob^ and jjesse are both active and vital contributors to the docteam
<mdke> Seveas, btw are you a CC member now?
<Seveas> mdke, cool, jjesse has been trying for a while to become a member, but he's almost always unable to attend the meetings
<Riddell> hmm?
<Seveas> mdke, no I am not, I just like to reward the contributions of jjesse/rob^ :)
<Seveas> Riddell, will you be at the CC meeting tonight (22:00 UTC)
<mdke> ah ok
<Riddell> sure
<mdke> it was the "we need" thing that made me think
<Seveas> sorry for the confusion
<mdke> anyhow if I am not there, please pass on my recommendation
<Seveas> I definitely will
<Seveas> Riddell, thank you for coming tonight
<jjesse> the meetings are usually when i am traveling home from work :(
<mdke> Seveas, you are aware that rob^ produced the starter guide basically on his own?
<mdke> tell em that
<mdke> jjesse essentially is the only contributor to kde docs right now
<Seveas> mdke, I know, but he has had problems coming to the meetings too
<mdke> so they are both definitely good candidates
<mdke> Seveas, np, just giving you some more ammunition
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> jjesse, make sure you add yourself to the ubuntumembers team on launchpad and that you upload a signed code of conduct
<mdke> Seveas, well if you're not a CC member, you are certainly the CC enforcer :)
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> I'm a community-oriented guy :)
<jjesse> Seveas: i have
<Seveas> ah right, I see now
<jbailey> mdke: I need another day on the ubuntu-docs repo. =)
<mdke> jbailey, cool
<jbailey> mdke: I'd like to do an initial upload to dapper right after.
<mdke> jbailey, sure, but what about the question of moving to gnome-doc-utils build structure?
<mdke> we haven't really talked about it yet, and I don't really know what I'm doing... so I'd appreciate your thoughts
<jbailey> Have we agreed on that?  I thought we didn't get that far in the meeting last Friday.
<mdke> no, we didn't
<mdke> i meant, I'd appreciate your thoughts on whether it is desirable
<jbailey> Ah, right!
<jbailey> I'll have to look at the infrastructure.  I had been thinking more along the lines of keeping the repo similar to the installed system.
* mdke nods
<jbailey> But either should work.  If it's not the same, we just need to make entities for each of the paths, and have them change at install time.
<mdke> well the gnome-doc-utils infrastructure AFAICS is based on the idea of using the same structure as in the installed system
<jbailey> Sounds lovely.
<mdke> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeDocUtilsMigrationHowTo
<jbailey> Will that be adequate for kubuntu and xubuntu?
<mdke> no no
<mdke> that would just be for the /gnome subdirectory i think
<jbailey> Oh.
<jbailey> That sounds like more work than is probably wanted, but I'll look. =)
<mdke> but as I say, I don't understand most of that page
<mdke> on the current structure, the translations are more work than is probably wanted
<mdke> at least I think
<mdke> we can try and rely on your scripts I guess
<mdke> in any case the subdirectories (gnome/kubuntu/xubuntu) are and will be shipping as separate packages afaics, and already have different structures
<jbailey> Right, but you want to avoid having to install three sets of tools if possible.
<jbailey> The translations problem can be solved reasonably automatically, I suspect.  If just needs to get the same love that other packages with pofiles do.
<jbailey> Then have langpacks deploy the translations.
<mdke> ok well you'll have to liase with whoever does the kde packaging then I guess
<mdke> jbailey, i dunno if it will be that simple, po files are a bit more tricky with documentation I think, but anyhow, we'll do our best
<mdke> we have some time to nail it
<jbailey> mdke: Yup.  Definetly need pitti's opinion on that side of it. =)
<mdke> jbailey, i guess you can hammer it out at UBZ?
<jbailey> mdke: Yes.  Although for now I'll try to get uploads in.  Part of what I want is to find out how often the pofiles should be imported into rosetta.
<jbailey> mdke: We don't want the translators doing too much on in-progress documentation that might be completely rewritten underneath them.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> in fact the po files shouldn't go into rosetta until the string freeze
<judax> mdke: I see you like Newton
<mdke> yeah :)
<mdke> where did you see?
<judax> mailing list
<mdke> aha
<judax> newton mailing list
<mdke> it rocks
<mdke> we need a standard wiki markup though
<judax> yeah, standards are great...everybody has one :p
<mdke> it's a pain to use different ones all the time
<judax> true
<Riddell> hmm, no jjesse
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-23
<theCore> is there a plan to make the list of the changes between Dapper and Edgy?
<mdke_> morning all
<pygi> hey mdke_ 
<Madpilot> hi mdke_ 
<Burgundavia> 'ello
<mdke_> hi there jono 
<Burgundavia> jono: !
<Burgundavia> good morning
<jono> hey :)
<Burgundavia> UK people means it is time for me to sleep
<jono> hows things doc heroes?
<Burgundavia> talk to you all another time
<Burgundavia> jono: your boss keeps changing the artwork, nearly fucking the artwork for teh book
<mdke_> not bad.
* Burgundavia is unhappy at that
<mdke_> is there any news on open sourcing the book?
<Burgundavia> jono: ^
<jono> mdke_, keep mails debs, but nothing yet
<jono> which is frustrating
<mdke_> hmm.
<jono> mdke_, will ping her again and CC youy
<mdke_> that would be good. 
<jono> Burgundavia, yeah, would be nice if art freeze meant what it said :P
<jono> mdke_, will do that now :)
<mdke_> we should make book-incorporation one of the main aims for next release
<Burgundavia> jono: Ubuntu (as a project) has never made an art freeze date
<jono> Burgundavia, it has?
<mdke_> I quite liked the art we had before reverting back to Dapper, tbh. Dunno what all the fuss is about
<jono> Burgundavia, there was an art freeze for dapper
<mdke_> jono: he means "never successfully complied with"
<tonyyarusso> Is all of the old and rejected artwork available somewhere?
<jono> oh right :)
<jono> I getcha
<mdke_> tonyyarusso: I think so - you can ask on the art mailing list
<tonyyarusso> 'k
<jono> mdke_, ok mailed, there may be a delay as she has been away due to a family thing
<mdke_> jono: thanks. Do you know what the delay has been caused by up to now?
<jono> mdke_, no idea, I am sure its some internal Prentice Hall red tape
<jono> debra is pretty punctual, so I doubt its a slackness
<Burgundavia> jono: artwork has also been the only feature to have ignored their freezes
<mdke_> I understood that Canonical had the copyright
<Burgundavia> so did I
<jono> yep
<Burgundavia> and the book is technically already under the CC, by the license in the back of the book
<Burgundavia> we just want a electronic copy
<jono> but PH are the publisher, so there are issues with clearance
<jono> Burgundavia, I know, but its still a tricky process for a publisher
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> anyway, I truly need to sleep
<mdke_> Burgundavia: having an open source license without the source is not particularly helpful though
<jono> yes, they should have had it online before, but hey, people get busy and rules get made
<LaserJock> mdke_: excellent spec :-)
<ray_52> g'day all
<altereg0`> just a heads up on the front page of yelp: I don't currently have my launchpad details on this install of edgy - but the front page of the help docs has the packaging guide heading in French on an english-au install: viz: "Empaquetage de nouvelles applications pour Ubuntu"
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<mdke> LaserJock: hi
<mdke> LaserJock: which spec is that? the build system one?
<Burgwork> mdke: do you want to arrange a post-edgy meeting?
<LaserJock> mdke: yes, the one you emailed about
<mdke> Burgwork: sounds like a good idea, except the me arranging it part
<Burgwork> mdke: why so?
<mdke> well, pure laziness reasons. Sure I'll arrange it
<LaserJock> Burgwork: online or face-to-face?
<mdke> I need to spend much of my Ubuntu time on the website though for a bit
<Burgwork> LaserJock: online
<Burgwork> did you and matthew connect on a website plan?
<mdke> not yet.
<mdke> we've exchanged a few ideas
<mdke> I'd really like to merge the wiki and the official docs
<Burgwork> yes, that would be cool
<Burgwork> has that wiki<-->docbook thing been fully baked?
<mdke> I don't know. mvirkkil!!
<mdke> also, I think the "translation on help.u.c" thing hasn't worked well.
<nixternal> talk about a lazy day
<stelis> How so?
<stelis> I got up early this morning, and am slightly jealous :) 
<stelis> I've only just been been to get back to Edubuntu documentation, though
<stelis> Hacking on the Help and Support bit
<mdke> nice to hear some work on edubuntu docs
<stelis> I've only really just started
<stelis> But nixternal and co have got most of the Handbook done already
<stelis> Hopefully when it goes out it will raise awareness a bit
<mdke> great
<nixternal> my eyes are crossed..i have 10 presentations ( a couple duplicates thank god) to get complete for this week
<stelis> The frantic life of a University student :) ?
<LaserJock> nixternal: you're just getting too old for all this ;-)
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> i think i am..i have been worn down the past couple of days pretty bad
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> warn down rather
<crimsun> now juggle cousins/kids, grants proposals, committee hassles, and ALSA work!
<nixternal> no thank you..i had the nieces and nephews yesterday..that was enough
<mdke> you can have help.ubuntu.com too
<nixternal> give it to me ;)
* mdke takes it back
<nixternal> haha
<stelis> That reminds me... I saw lot of pages marked CategoryCleanup
<nixternal> shhhhh
<stelis> I was going to update some
<Burgwork> stelis: then get to work ;)
<stelis> But wasn't sure what the criteria was for making a page current if you see what I mean
<nixternal> ya, after edgy is out, im sure we will get back to cleaning up the wiki again
<Burgwork> the criteria is that they show instructions for all supported distros
<Burgwork> they also need to follow general style guidelines
<mdke> haven't we got some instructions hanging around?
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> devil if I remember now
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<mdke> stelis: look at that, especially "Style"
<mdke> obviously in terms of content, the page should be really good too
<stelis> What I wasn't sure of is who makes the call as to when the page is good enough
<Burgwork> you do
<stelis> To be taken off the hitlist
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> after you edit, just remove the CategoryCleanup from the bottom
<stelis> That saves formfilling :)
<stelis> Sure - I've worked on Wikis before
<nixternal> yes, because I used to email the list all the time with my edits, and burg and mdke responded with "please stop!"
<stelis> But each community has it's own rules
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> the Ubuntu Documentation projects number one rule is
<nixternal> you don't talk about ubuntu documentation
<nixternal> you knew that was coming i bet..no more tv for me
<stelis> Cliches are cliches because they're good
<stelis> I loved that film
<stelis> I've been making notes on setting up Vmware, and noticed that the Wiki pages for it need cleanup
<stelis> Is there a restriction/guideline on third-party apps?
<nixternal> stelis: heh, you can remove my "VMware" page that i started, as that was my task a few months back, but of course that got side tracked with other work
<mdke> stelis: that would ROCK - there are a million different VMware pages that need integrating
<stelis> mdke: That's what I noticed
<stelis> It needs some tough love to sort out :)
<mdke> stelis: yeah
<stelis> Which is why I felt I ought to check on the protocol, and not just rewrite a bunch of other people's work and maybe even start sticking in redirects  
<mdke> the redirect policy is in WikiGuide there somewhere too, I hope
<nixternal> #refresh 0 http://external.link
<nixternal> or
<nixternal> #redirect WikiPage/SubPage
<mdke> not so much how to do it, but when to do it
<nixternal> ahh, yes of course
<stelis> There's a short on how but I can't see much about the "when"
<stelis> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/DeletingAndRenaming
<stelis> But I'm speed-reading
<mdke> yeah, you're right
<stelis> I think that all that there is on redirects
<mdke> we should add some stuff
<stelis> I probably won't get round to working on this for a week or two, so I'll just ask here if/when redirects become an issue
<mdke> hmm. The official docs on help.u.c break 500MB. That's gonna take a while to upload
<stelis> Ouch
<nixternal> nah, that is about a 2 hour upload i think for me
<mdke> heh
<mdke> I am on 128kbit upload. We'll see what bzip can do
<stelis> It's my day for silly questions...
<stelis> Is there a DocBook entity for "Debian"
<stelis> I can't see one in the global.ent
<stelis> Or generic.ent
<mdke> stelis: no. Just write Debian
<mdke> we have far too many silly entities
<stelis> Thanks.
<nixternal> mdke: what should be an entity, and what shouldn't?
<nixternal> version numbers?
<nixternal> however, numbers are translatable strings in some languages
<stelis> There's entities for the Ubuntu distros, so I wondered if there was one for Debian too
<stelis> I've seen DocBook where different entity sets go with different translations
<nixternal> ya, kde does it like that
<stelis> It's a knotty problem...
<mdke> nixternal: something that will save you time when typing
<nixternal> url's are about the only thing that would save time, as doing 6.10 is quicker than doing &distro-rev;
<mdke> things like menu entries, separate files, etc
<mdke> but yeah, also things that are easier to change in one file than doing find/replace over loads
* mdke -> bed
<nixternal> g'nite
<stelis> night
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-24
<glatzor> mdke: ping
<mdke> glatzor: pong
<glatzor> mdke: hi, I have got a question concerning the start page of firefox
<glatzor> It has to be translated manually - in ducment?, right?
<mdke> glatzor: that's right
<glatzor> the German one is in a really bad state, but I haven't nticed it so far, since I used a custom start page
<glatzor> Fine, then can I just send it to you?
<mdke> glatzor: yes. It won't go in for the release of course, but it can be in an update
<glatzor> that is fine
<glatzor> cu
<mdke> bye
<crimsun> is there an Ubuntu Edgy release notes page?
<trappist> crimsun: there is in the repo, but I don't know whether it's been published
<crimsun> ok. I need to add something to it RE: asoundconf(1)  [bug 67998}
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67998 in alsa-utils "Dist-upgrades from Dapper to Edgy break on existing ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf due to missing conf parameters (e.g., Unable to find definition 'defaults.pcm.ipc_key')" [Low,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67998
<trappist> hrm.  there doesn't weem to be an errata section at the moment.
<trappist> or known-issues, I guess would be more appropriate
<nixternal> crimsun: is this just for ubuntu docs, or for kubuntu as well?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuEdgyKnownProblems
<nixternal> there is the kubuntu known probs page
<nixternal> can't find one for ubuntu
<crimsun> nixternal: it affects all Ubuntu-based projects.
<crimsun> (and in fact all distros that use asoundconf)
<crimsun> it's not an RC issue; certainly the workaround is straightforward
<nixternal> got it
<dholbach> hi
<dholbach> mdke: is there anything I can do help assisting with the book excerpt?
<mdke> dholbach: no, don't think so.
<mdke> I've built the whole website now and sent a complete tarball to newz
<dholbach> mdke: YOU ROCK :)
<mdke> you're pretty good yourself
* dholbach hugs mdke
* mdke hugs back
* dholbach rushes off to dinner - see you
<mdke> bye
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-25
<mdke> morning all.
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<mdke> all well? documentation working?
<Burgundavia> all is well
<Madpilot> very cool, despite the odd name: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KnowThyUbuntu
<newz2000> mdke: around? re help.ubuntu.com/6.10
<mdke> newz2000: just got here
<newz2000> mdke: hey
<newz2000> we had a little problem with the help.
<newz2000> There was no index.html.en
<mdke> right, it's index.html, no?
<newz2000> I copied en_GB over though and that fixed it.
<newz2000> it didn't work right.
<newz2000> It defaulted to second choice (for karl, DE) or if no second choice, downloaded a file.
<mdke> ok. It's no big deal, in theory index.html.en_GB is slightly different to index.html, but it really doesn't matter
<ToHellWithGA> do yall have any beef with me putting a repartitioning guide on the wiki?
<newz2000> I can copy index.html to index.html.en
<mdke> newz2000: that would be ideal, I think
<newz2000> mdke: also, the book toc has no header/footer. Is that expected?
<ToHellWithGA> i linked to it in here a few times and in #ubuntu-offtopic for suggestions for changes.  there's already a wiki summary of the FHS so it seems assistance in partitioning would be good
<mdke> newz2000: yes, it's just the file I got off Daniel
<mdke> ToHellWithGA: go ahead, the only rule is to build on existing documentation, if it exists, rather than starting new pages
<ToHellWithGA> mdke: so linking to it from the FHS page, for example
<mdke> ToHellWithGA: sure. Do a search for any existing material
<ToHellWithGA> will do.  thanks
<mdke> newz2000: it is still default to my second choice (IT) at the moment
<mdke> great to see its live already
<newz2000> well, its not exactly live yet
<newz2000> I just copied the 6.10 folder into the existing site.
<mdke> yes, that's what I mean.
<newz2000> Znarl wondered if there was any reason not to use the redirect to 6.10. He thought that the reason he didn't do that before was because it wouldn't work for you. He admitted that he couldn't remember exactly why it was done the way it is though.
<mdke> newz2000: the only other thing we tried was a symlink, and he removed that because it was a security risk. But I basically left the solution to him
<newz2000> ok. Well, we're going to hammer that out tomorrow.
<mdke> lovely. Thanks for taking charge
<newz2000> amazing how much last minute stuff needs done!
<mdke> so you haven't yet fixed the en thing?
<nixternal> well hello there mdke and newz2000!
<mdke> hi
<newz2000> mdke: no
<newz2000> nowdy nixternal
<mdke> newz2000: fine. Ok
<newz2000> I don't think I have an index.html
<newz2000> everything has an extension
<newz2000> mdke: confirmed. I have no 6.10/index.html
<mdke> newz2000: ah. mv index.html.C index.html
<newz2000> oh
<mdke> sorry, missed that
<newz2000> that may explain our prev problem too.
<mdke> so it does
<newz2000> mdke:  ok, replaced
<mdke> sorry bout that
<Ubugtu> New bug: #67638 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Ubuntu Book Excerpt leads to 404 not found" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67638
<LaserJock> hehe, the doc teams secret revenge ^^ ;-)
<mdke> I just closed that bug
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-26
* mdke beds
<jwhitlark> who
<jwhitlark> I was thinking of updating the serial console howto, and adding a section on client configuration.  How should I go about this?
<LaserJock> jwhitlark: on the wiki?
<jwhitlark> yes, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto
<jwhitlark> it uses 5.04, and has no client info.  Also, the settings used are very slow.
<LaserJock> well, just go for it, if you need advice ask here or the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<jwhitlark> ok.  I just didn't want to step on anyone's toes, and was not sure about editing someone else's work.
<LaserJock> jwhitlark: it's a wiki, that's the fun part :-)
<jwhitlark> Thanks.
<Burgwork> mdke: you around?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: "mdke beds" about 1.5 hrs ago
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> just restarted my client
<LaserJock> Burgwork: one minor comment on the LIfecycle page you just gave in -devel
<Burgwork> shoot
<LaserJock> should "Packages in the universe and multiverse sections are supported by the community." be at the end of that paragraph
<Burgwork> edit please
<Burgwork> I am not currently
<LaserJock> done
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> Burgwork: I'm around now
<nixternal> hiya mdke!
<mdke> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> we can almost breathe a "small" sigh of relief
<nixternal> now get ready for the bugs to start flying today
* mdke sighs
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> in relief!
<nixternal> at least we have 6 months, well a good 4 to 5 months to prepare for feisty docs
<nixternal> or complete rather
<mdke> yes, we need to do better this release
<nixternal> also, we need to get Edubuntu docs into the repos so they can get a grip on them...they have no docs, except for a firefox start page
<mdke> you did that already
<mdke> no?
<nixternal> they have a bunch of broken dreams? promises?  i would like to get them rocking
<nixternal> well, the handbook
<mdke> are there more?
<nixternal> but that needs so much work
<nixternal> well, they need an "About Edubntu", "Edubuntu Release Notes" just like the other projects do
<mdke> hmm. Ubuntu doesn't have a release notes, it's prepared by the developers on the wiki
<nixternal> RichEd and willdvl? are looking at making that all better for feisty..im trying to persuade them to go about doing documentation the same way we do..it is fairly simple and it is always maintained
<mdke> good
<nixternal> ya, i just got done doing the Kubuntu release page for the site
<FireRabbit> hey the EdgyReleaseNotes page on the wiki still has the old artwork in the login screen shots, etc.... is anyone already working on this?
<FireRabbit> is this page completely unofficial and doesnt matter?
<mdke> FireRabbit: I think it's the official one, best to ask in -devel. If you can work on it, that would be great
<FireRabbit> ok..
<Kagou> hi
<Kagou> mdke: i'v made Bug #68343
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 68343 in ubuntu-docs "French packaging guide not installed in Edgy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68343
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68343 in ubuntu-docs "French packaging guide not installed in Edgy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68343
<LinuxGuy2006> someone needs to update the Ubuntu page: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases   it does not include the Edgy release
<jsgotangco> newz2000: ^^
<newz2000> LinuxGuy2006, jsgotangco: thanks. Will do.
<LinuxGuy2006> your welcome
<poningru> newz2000: yarr
<newz2000> poningru: what's up?
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68424 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Linux pronunciation guide is wrong." [Low,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68424
<Burgwork> newz2000: we need new screenshots for the /desktop page as well
<newz2000> Burgwork: are there any other editors who could put that on the todo list? I'm bogged down for a bit
<Burgwork> newz2000: also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/LifeCycle
<Burgwork> newz2000: I will do it
<newz2000> thanks
<JoseStefan> i need a second opinion revising the edgy upgrade instructions for kubuntu
<JoseStefan> is there a working pure GUI way of upgrading? the instructions were changed to aot, and were redundant
<JoseStefan> apt*
<LaserJock> update-manager
<LaserJock> oh, well I'm not sure about Kubuntu
<JoseStefan> there used to be an adept method, on the upgrade page
<JoseStefan> added on revision 11
<JoseStefan> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades?action=diff&rev2=11&rev1=10
<JoseStefan> later on was modified to apt, which was redundant with instructions already shown on other method
<JoseStefan> so question is, is this adept method reliable, and so, should it be re-added ?
<Burgwork> I would ask in #kubuntu-devel
<nixternal> Adept
<crimsun> fwiw, I dist-upgraded my parents' machine using gksu "update-manager -c" from breezy->dapper->edgy [after having them manually do hoary->breezy] , and it was a cinch
<nixternal> check out the Kubuntu Release Notes for 6.10, I wrote up a brief tutorial on a proper dist-upgrade utilizing the Adept Package Manager
<crimsun> so yes, JoseStefan, there's a "pure gui way" from at least breezy->dapper->edgy
<JoseStefan> crimsun, Kubuntu?
<JoseStefan> nixternal, will check release notes
<crimsun> yes
<nixternal> crimsun only uses Kubuntu, he just said told me an hour ago that the Edgy release of Kubuntu has caused him to renounce GNOME all together, and that he will never use GNOME again
<JoseStefan> so update-manager is effective for all *ubuntu desktop ?
<crimsun> JoseStefan: depending on which packages are installed, yes
<JoseStefan> ok
<crimsun> (and which repos are currently active when "update-manager -c" is invoked)
<crimsun> nixternal: it's the purplish. Can't... stay... away...
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> crimsun: im going to take "English as a Second Language" next semester...my writing has went to garbage here lately
<crimsun> I need to retake a journalism class or six
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> that was a cool course, but i did an "online" version of it
<nixternal> hmm..it seems it is one of my available courses according to my degree audit
<JoseStefan> for kubuntu, it wouldnt exactly be:   gksu "update-manager -c"
<JoseStefan> gksu?
<Burgwork> no gtk, no update-mager
<JoseStefan> ok, now i'm confused
<Burgwork> update-manager and gksudo are gnome technologies
<JoseStefan> so what would be the kubuntu GUI way?
<nixternal> http://kubuntu.org/announcements/6.10-release.php
<nixternal> scroll down to the "Upgrading from 6.06 LTS"
<nixternal> almost all the way down at the bottom of the page
<nixternal> arg
<nixternal> never mind..it seems they decided agains that "GUI" way I wrote i tup, and went with a "technival savvy" way instead...which is not good
<JoseStefan> take a look at this old edit: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades?action=diff&rev2=11&rev1=10
<nixternal> that sounds correct to me
<nixternal> almost what I had word for word as a matter of fact
<JoseStefan> do you have an older copy of what you wrote?
<nixternal> actually, i do
<nixternal> one sec
<nixternal> JoseStefan: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/28503/
<JoseStefan> any reason why they went for the CLI approach ?
<Burgwork> JoseStefan: there is no gui optoin
<mdke> eh, update manager doesn't work automatically?
<Burgwork> doesn't exist in kubuntu
<mdke> oh no, because of the LTS thing
<mdke> ah, my bad
<JoseStefan> Burgwork, adept?
<Burgwork> might do
<Burgwork> never used kubuntu
<JoseStefan> me neither
<pygi> JoseStefan: what do you need with adept? :P
<JoseStefan> i was revising the edgy upgrade wiki
<ragnar_123> there is a typo in http://www.ubuntu.com/products/GetUbuntu, could some admin fix it, it's located under the danish distributor, linux pusher, in the url
<Burgwork> ragnar_123: got it
<Burgwork> ragnar_123: done
<ragnar_123> nice
<mdke> Burgwork: if you're up for it, there's a second typo in bug 68388
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 68388 in ubuntu-website "Two broken links on the website" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68388
<Burgwork> and GEtUbuntu is a hedious page name
<Burgwork> we can deal with that next week
<mdke> I think it is Jane's baby, to be honest
<mdke> seems like a fairly intuitive name to me
<Burgwork> but it doesn't fit with the rest of the url scheme
<Burgwork> which is all lowercase
* Burgwork sucks down the karma from fixing a bug
<mdke> true. They are developing a new section for products, top level tag. Maybe they are gonna change the url style too
<Burgwork> I hope not
<JoseStefan> Burgwork, /download currently redirects, which is a good thing
<Burgwork> I wish they would fracking tell us when the are changing the website
* Burgwork grumbles
<JoseStefan> maybe it redirects to the wrong page, let me check
<mdke> Burgwork: the website is currently Canonical's domain, as they are doing the marketing of Ubuntu. It's quite natural I think that they plan their tactics without telling us
<Burgwork> that is utter crack and you know it
<Burgwork> it is UBUNTU's not CANONICALS
<mdke> no need for the caps. But what I say is the simple reality
<Burgwork> mostly they play nice
<Burgwork> this is one area they need to shape up
<mdke> Canonical run Ubuntu, from the business, to the development to the marketing
<mdke> and the website is both business and marketing :)
<JoseStefan> download page redirects to GetUbuntu/download    is this correct, or should it be: GetUbuntu/
<Burgwork> so
<mdke> JoseStefan: it seems to work as it is
<Burgwork> the redirect is correct
<JoseStefan> GetUbuntu/ is prettier
<Burgwork> mdke: for that matter, the new Canonical marketing director has not introducing themselves to the marketing team
<mdke> Burgwork: I didn't know that role had been filled already
<mdke> you're right of course, communication with the community is really bad.
<mdke> but that's life. Canonical so far are doing a good job
<Burgwork> I am also angry 'cause today I learned work is not letting me go to MTV
<mdke> no need for the revolution as yet
<mdke> ;)
<Burgwork> no, I am not asking for the revolution
<Burgwork> I am asking for communication
<mdke> yeah, I was joking
<LaserJock> Burgwork: you aren't coming to MTV?!?
<Burgwork> I have asked newz2000 several times for his plans for the website
<Burgwork> LaserJock: fracking work...
* Burgwork is angy
<Burgwork> angry
<LaserJock> Burgwork: want me to call Tim?
<Burgwork> nothing todo with him
<LaserJock> I can threaten to put a virus in desktop-multiplier unless they let you go ;-)
<Burgwork> I might be there Tuesday morning, if this giant project falls apart
<Burgwork> which I expect it o
<Burgwork> to
<mdke> so who is the communications manager?
<mdke> I thought the whole point of that role was to increase canonical<->community communication
<Burgwork> christine somebody
<Burgwork> she sent out the Hoary EOL
<mdke> oh right, yeah
<JoseStefan> where is the hoary EOL announcement?
<mdke> matthewrevell mentioned her
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> -security-announce
<Burgwork> it was not sent to -announce, for some insane reason
<JoseStefan> should be both, for good measure
<LaserJock> I wish we could see an outline of who does what in Canonical for the positions that directly effect the community
<Burgwork> yes, but mdz disagreed with me
<mdke> yeah. apparently she prepared the press release for edgy too
<LaserJock> as Canonical is getting bigger it's getting harder and harder to figure out who's doing what
<Burgwork> LaserJock: start a page on the wiki
<Burgwork> we can start adding names as needed
<Burgwork> CanonicalStaff or something
<LaserJock> I'm not sure Mark would appreciate that
<Burgwork> start it
<Burgwork> he doesn't want to tell us, that is fine
<mdke> i think it's a good idea
<mdke> which people to contact for which task, etc
<Burgwork> if anything, it will lower the number of people you need to contact
<mdke> and avoid time wasting when the wrong people are contacted
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> list emails?
<mdke> link to LP page, I'd say
<Burgwork> that works
<Burgwork> name and position
<mdke> get Jane to fill it in
<Burgwork> do what we can and then pass it to her
<theCore> Burgwork, why are you angry?
<Burgwork> theCore: a bunch of stuff
<Burgwork> scroll up
<theCore> communication problems?
<Burgwork> yes
<Burgwork> of all kinds
<theCore> what's wrong with the website? 
<Burgwork> lack of communication from Canonical as to roadmap
<JoseStefan> how long are repositories kept for EOL releases?
<JoseStefan> eg: warty ?
<Burgwork> indefinitely
<Burgwork> licensing
<JoseStefan> but these are basically static ?
<Burgwork> yes
* Burgwork is busy creating animated gif banner ads
<Burgwork> what has the world come to?
<JoseStefan> gif? ugh
<Burgwork> can't do animated png
<JoseStefan> hopefully soon we will
<JoseStefan> you probably can, but no one is gonna be able to see them :(
<nixternal> ya, they have been saying animated png for years now
<JoseStefan> "most" used browsers dont even support transparency correctly
<nixternal> "most" == Internet Explorer
<JoseStefan> lol
<JoseStefan> webmasters need to face reality
<JoseStefan> broken standards can be a nightmare
<nixternal> there are transparency hacks though to make them work with internet explorer
<nixternal> *html>body tags get old really quick in css files
<theCore> mng is not for soon, neither apng
<JoseStefan> you can't design a webpage only for power users...
<nixternal> i had my blog setup to block all internet explorer browsers
<JoseStefan> i try to reach as many browsers as possible
<theCore> nixternal, that's nasty :)
<nixternal> it was a wordpress plugin
<nixternal> it worked very good as well
<JoseStefan> i have a tictactoe game that even works on a Sony PSP, but has minor issues
<nixternal> it did block anything internet explorer like a champ
<JoseStefan> crossbrowser javascript is another nightmare
<JoseStefan> is there an upgrade path from debian to ubuntu? or does it require re-install ?
<JoseStefan> there used to be sarge -> warty, i wonder how that has evolved
<Burgwork> there is no debian --> ubuntu upgrade path that is supported
<Burgwork> and the old one was woody --> warty
<Burgwork> however, sarge --> breezy|dapper|edgy woudl likely work
<Burgwork> with some manual hacking
<LaserJock> just alien a checkinstalled update-manager .rpm for Debian and run it a bunch of time ;-)
<Burgwork> ugh
<LaserJock> sorry
<Burgwork> LaserJock: keep that up and I will make you package tcl ;)
<Burgwork> I have a giant steaming pile of it for anybody who wants
<crimsun> as in tcl/tk?
<pygi> crimsun: I assume so :)
<crimsun> it's not that bad
<crimsun> scons is worse
<Burgwork> crimsun: as in aolserver tcl
<pygi> whats wrong with scons? :P
<crimsun> nothing's _wrong_ with scons. It can just be a pain to package and/or use.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-27
<crimsun> (This is obviously subjective.)
<crimsun> Burgwork: oh. In that case I'm backing away slowly.
* pygi used scons with Diva, and will use it in one of his future projects
<Burgwork> crimsun: better run as I can run faster
<pygi> crimsun: but autotools are bad as well :P
<Burgwork> *grin*
<crimsun> autotools are even worse than scons.
<pygi> crimsun: signed :)
<theCore> pygi, have you packaged Diva?
<pygi> theCore: can't, it's not running on top of stable gst yet
<theCore> pygi, I tried to, but Diva required a patched version of gstreamer
<theCore> pygi, ahh
<pygi> theCore: no kidding :)
<Burgwork> what about pitivi
<Burgwork> it actually uses gnonlin
<pygi> theCore: the svn version shouldnt really need it, but there are still some problems ^_^
<pygi> which is also buggy :P
<theCore> I think there was plan to make Diva runnable on plain Gst
<theCore> a plan*
<pygi> theCore: I know, I'm one of devs =)
<pygi> theCore: that's why I'm telling you about the svn version which SHOULD work on top of plain gst
<pygi> but I think we still have some problems
<theCore> pygi, oh, I thought mdk was still alone doing his project
<pygi> theCore: nop, for some time
<pygi> theCore: Senko jumped on, and later I did
<pygi> but no much progress lately as you probably know due to that *problems*
<crimsun> hmm, why was my note on EdgyReleaseNotes regarding asoundconf removed? I was asked by fabbione to place that note.
<theCore> pygi, I would jump in, but I got no experience with C#, neither with video editing
<pygi> theCore: what about C & gst knowledge? :)
<Burgwork> hey jono
<theCore> pygi, I'm good with C, but I'm a total ignorant of gst
<crimsun> ah, I see mdz removed it. Oh well.
<pygi> theCore: oh :(
<theCore> pygi, although, it may changes
<pygi> would be nice :) You know partly diva is based on GDV, the gst engine MDK wrote?
<jono> Burgwork, howdy
<Burgwork> pygi: my question is: Why did diva use gdv and not gnonlin?
<theCore> pygi, yeah, I saw that in the source code
<pygi> Burgwork: ask MDK and ask Miguel Icaza ^_^
<pygi> Burgwork: they probably made that decision at start of SoC two years ago
<Burgwork> right
<LaserJock> hi jono 
<jono> hey LaserJock 
<nixternal> i see how it is now..during the "construction" phase everyone hides..and now that we are in the "delivery" stage everyone is back ;)
<nixternal> muhehe
<Burgwork> *grin*
<nixternal> haha, i knew you would be the first
<Burgwork> all here for the glory and none of the hard work
<nixternal> mdke gets the "Documentation Hard Work" Award for sure
<JoseStefan> who updates the source-o-matic ?
<nixternal> Seveas i believe
<nixternal> yes, that is Seveas' project
<JoseStefan> thats 2 things that point me to him :/
<JoseStefan> that and ubotu
<JoseStefan> bbl
<ceros> hello
<ceros> is there a discussion section for each article in the documentation wiki?
<Burgwork> sadly no
<ceros> ok
<ceros> will there be one soon?
<Burgwork> you can create a /Talk page
<ceros> you mean for each article?
<Burgwork> any you want to comment on
<ceros> how would i create one?
<Burgwork> go to the page and create it
<ceros> ok, finally figured out how it's done on this wiki
<ceros> well i was goint to ask about editing pages in the ubuntu documentation wiki
<ceros> we're allowed to edit them right?
<Burgwork> absolutely
<ceros> ok
<ceros> i changed the script for installing the w32codecs for i386 machines
<Burgwork> sounds good
<ceros> would there be a better way to install w32codecs?
<Burgwork> tell people to wget and then dpkg -i?
<ceros> the mirror to plf was broken
<ceros> don't know anyother place to get this package
<ceros> i was thinking there's a way to do the same thing but without creating a symlink
<Burgwork> symlink?
<ceros> symbolic link
<Burgwork> no, understand what it is
<Burgwork> I don't understand what you mean in this context
<ceros> ok
<ceros> i have the script telling me to get the package straight from mplayerhq
<ceros> it's a tar.bz2 package
<Burgwork> that is crack
<ceros> i can't just tell it to extract straight to /usr/lib/codecs because it will create a folder called all-*
<ceros> and then extract all the files
<Burgwork> lets see if we can find w32codecs from somewhere else
<Burgwork> http://www.debian-multimedia.org/pool/main/w/w32codecs/
<ceros> ok
<dthacker> hello
<ceros> thanks for your help
<dthacker_away> not much on the doc list at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects.  Where is help needed the most?
<Burgundavia> dthacker: what do you like doing?
<Burgundavia> the project list is old
<dthacker> Burgundavia: I like writing and editing.  I'm currently editing a bunch 'o pages for tikiwkiw.org at http:://doc/tikiwiki.org
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> well the wiki at help.ubuntu.com/community always needs help
<Burgundavia> my suggestion would be to write what you know quite a lot about
<dthacker> Burgundavia: How do I get there?  http://help.ubuntu.com/community doesn't seem to work
<Burgundavia> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Welcome
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, your alter-ego is back again, must have just stepped out for coffee ;)
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68521 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu release notes refer to Firefox 2.0 which isn't included" [Low,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68521
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68523 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu Desktop Guide: No default bit torrent capability is installed with Kubuntu - actually ktorrent is in default install" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68523
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68524 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu Desktop Guide: Networking section refers to ethereal, now called wireshark" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68524
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68525 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu Desktop Guide: refers to adept handbook - not included.." [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68525
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68527 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu Desktop Guide: says type "kdesu adept" this breaks" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68527
<nixternal> holy shnikeys we did a crappy job if we just got bombarded like that
<nixternal> who is Caroline Ford?  She sure can pinpoint boogs big time
<Madpilot> we should invite her into the docteam as a proofreader :)
<nixternal> no doubt
<nixternal> she is a big time bug person, and seems to always read over our work big time..i like that
<nixternal> i can fix those in the repos now can't i?
<nixternal> and when Riddell gets a chance, can recheck them out later to fix the system
<nixternal> all those bugs are due to us just writing over the old breezy and dapper docs...just goes to show that a rewrite just might be neccessary
<nixternal> oh no, staffer, watch out everyone ;)
<rob> boo!
<nixternal> 5 days away until booday
<rob> s/boo//
<nixternal> you can't take it back, to late ;)
<rob> yeah I can ^ :)
<nixternal> nope, you are still timestamped at 23:34:12 here in Chicago, and you little s/boo// didn't remove it, so no you can't take it back ;)
<nixternal> muhehe
<jroes> is there a reason behind giving users commands like "apt-get install pkg pkg pkg" when they will almost always need to drop a "sudo" in front of that?
<mdke> nixternal: before we fix those bugs we need to check that trunk is up to date with any changes that were made to the edgy branch after we branched it off
<mdke> jroes: I don't think so.
<mdke> jroes: our policy is really to tell users to "install pkg" rather than tie them down to a particular method of installation
<Ubugtu> New bug: #67586 in kubuntu-docs (main) "default homepage nonexistant" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67586
<Plug> So.
<Plug> On the subject of documentation, probably worth asking here first
<Plug> is 'gksu "update-manager -c"' acceptable for an upgrade?
<Plug> Or should I file a bug along the lines of "provide an alias for that" or "add a right-click the tray icon to do it" option?
<Plug> I guess that the update-manager method is the only one guaranteed to work for versions < feisty, even if it is made easier
<nixternal> moins
<nixternal> mdke: how do you go about updating between the branches?  do you just run diff, create a patch, and apply it to trunk?  or just copy over from edgy to trunk?
<jsgotangco> the current trunk should have been branched or it may alreayd ahve been i dunno
<nixternal> it has been
<nixternal> just for a few weeks now
<jsgotangco> why would you like to muck up with the branch?
<nixternal> [02:09:33]  <mdke> nixternal: before we fix those bugs we need to check that trunk is up to date with any changes that were made to the edgy branch after we branched it off
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<nixternal> yup
<mdke> nixternal: yeah just do a diff on the relevant document and see what's changed. Decide if it should apply to trunk, and if so, do it
<nixternal> already did it...there was only a couple small changes for the kubuntu side of things
<nixternal> already fixed teh boogs as well, and creating a new package for Riddell
<nixternal> there is a stingy bug with the firefox frontpage with kubuntu, but it is an /etc/alternatives issue
<mdke> nixternal: creating a new package?
<nixternal> debdiff rather
<mdke> for what distribution?
<nixternal> updating the current package is what i should have said
<nixternal> kubuntu
<mdke> edgy-updates?
<nixternal> yes
<mdke> ah, that was quick
<nixternal> ya, well someone found a bunch of bugs with the KDG, and then there was the standing release number issue with the release notes
<mdke_> nixternal: if changing strings in the edgy branch you need to copy the changes to trunk too
<nixternal> ya i will here in a bit
<nixternal> i had to run and take care of some stuff ;)
<mdke_> cool. It doesn't have to be done immediately
<nixternal> i have most of them copied over already
<nixternal> thanks for highlighting me with that though..i could have very well forgotten to do it, since today is super busy for me
<mdke_> :)
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68712 in ubuntu-docs "IMPORTANT bad translation in file index-fr_FR.html" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68712
<claude> hi all,
<claude> is the firefox home page in an ubuntu-doc template in Rosetta ?
<claude> at least, i found the page in the svn repos
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-28
<Ubugtu> New bug: #68731 in ubuntu-docs "broken link in file index-fr_FR.html" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68731
<Ubugtu> New bug: #65685 in kubuntu-docs ""About Kubuntu" missing "wonderful-linux.html"" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65685
<nixternal> WEKNOW!!!!
<nixternal> argh
<nixternal> oh, thought that was a duplicate
<crimsun> hey, I think kubuntu-doc has some invalid symlink
<nixternal> it is the symlink
<nixternal> the easy fix is to symlink to a .html file that will refresh redirect to /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kubuntu/about-kubuntu/index.html
<nixternal> that way there, you will get all the files with it, plus the css to go with it
<nixternal> or symlink everything into the ubuntu-art/home directory, which is stupid
<crimsun> btw, I think kubuntu-docs has a dangling symlink
<crimsun> just so you know how I feel with mass dupes!
<nixternal> well, i hate the whole symlink thing with /etc/alternatives as it was also a reason for the stupid usplash bugs where people never got the new usplash, and had the "testing" one for the entire process
<amachu> hi
<MasterNinja> hello
<Burgundavia> hey MasterNinja
<MasterNinja> im thinking of switching from xp to ubuntu
<Burgundavia> cool
<MasterNinja> but i dont like how you install stuff on linux im reading a tutorial but its talking about usingthe terminal
<MasterNinja> i really dont want to ever touch the terminal
<Burgundavia> you don't need it, provided stuff is packaged
<MasterNinja> but it dont have certain stuff i want
<MasterNinja> dont you just click a install icon when you download a program?
<MasterNinja> ...
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-29
<MasterNinja> HELP!
<mdke__> MasterNinja: can you be more specific?
<MasterNinja> i burnt the ubuntu 6.10 files on a cd but it wont but
<MasterNinja> boot*
<mdke__> MasterNinja: ah, you need #ubuntu
<MasterNinja> i downloaded the file and it was this cabinate shaped icon i extrated the files and burnt them but all it does is activate a welcome screen on XP
<MasterNinja> :(
<MasterNinja> connect #ubuntu
<penguin42> minor observation; help.ubuntu.com doesn't have a 6.10 tab
<nixternal> penguin42: it does, it is just hiddent, https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10
<nixternal> it will show up when you do that ;)
<penguin42> haha ok
<nixternal> it is supposed to be there, and i thought they worked on that the other day, but i guess i am wrong
<penguin42> in that case I'll disappear again - thanks
<ubuntu_crash> i am facing lots when attaching 2nd sata hdd  is there any bug in ubuntu ?
<ubuntu_crash> Ubuntu allways crashes
#ubuntu-doc 2007-10-22
<seisen> When does the documentation for Hardy start?
<nixternal> not for a while
<nixternal> I would say at a minimum, if a lot of stuff doesn't change and the specs have been approved at UDS, we could probably start working on documentation in 2 months
<nixternal> but we tend to wait until the last couple of months, that way there we no stuff won't change drastically...
<jjesse> hopefully at UDS Boston I can get a start on things
<nixternal> me too :)
<nixternal> schoolio time...back later
<seisen> I was just wondering so I could help with some of the little stuff
<jjesse> seisen: you can start cleanning up th wiki
<jjesse> which would be a great help
<seisen> I have been cleaning the wiki up but lately I haven't had time
<seisen> I know the wiki is a mess, but I do have two days off so maybe I can get some cleaning done this week
<jjesse> cool good luck
<seisen> I think some of the pages might just need the category cleanup tags removed because they have been cleaned up but the tags not removed
<jjesse> wouldn't be suprised if that was all it took
<seisen> some of them do need cleaned up like the one's for beryl because the repository are no longer available
<seisen> then some are just a mess
<billycina> hi there
<jjesse_> hello
<billycina> anybody know about new dtd requirements from  Gutsy
<billycina> ie as of gutsy?
<billycina> new version of docbook it seems
<jjesse_> so the dtd that all the docs are getting is wrong/
<billycina> yes
<jjesse_> intersteing was not awaare of that
<billycina> it's a real pain
<jjesse_> so all the docs don't lookright?
<billycina> errors all over the shop
<jjesse_> grumble grumble
<billycina> they can't 'make'
<jjesse_> are they built correctly on a gutsy install?
 * jjesse_ is at work and not on a gutsy box right now
<billycina> they were built on feisty
<billycina> and now we are reviewing on gutsy
<billycina> and the doc are just not happy
<jjesse_> that sucks
<billycina>  i know
<billycina> any solution you can think of?
<jjesse_> not off the top of my head
<billycina> any idea where i can look?
<jjesse_> umm give me a bit to think
<billycina> k - thanks
<jjesse_> just to make sure i understand if i run the validate.sh script in the docteam svn it will give a ton of errors?
<billycina> sounds about right - yes
<billycina> you guys must use a different way of checking
<billycina> i'm using bluefish
<jjesse_> whenever i need to validate my docbook files i run the script that is in trunk
<jjesse_> validate.sh
<billycina> i think we are doing the same but in different means
<popey> :(
<billycina> popey: this is very annoying
<TeTeT> jjesse_: I'll take a look at it
<TeTeT> jjesse: after commenting out some, but not all <figure>s it compiles again
<mdke> what's the error from validate.sh? The dtd in our documents hasn't changed, so upgrading to gutsy shouldn't change anything
<mdke> I haven't seen any errors with making or validating
<mdke> TeTeT: still around?
<TeTeT> mdke: yes, I'm there, sorry
<mdke> nothing to be sorry for :)
<TeTeT> mdke: the validate.sh points to a number of issues
<mdke> all documents?
<TeTeT> mdke: one with use of para inside of screen, the other on figure
<TeTeT> mdke: yep, maybe dblatex became more rigorous in 7.10
<TeTeT> e.g. on feisty it builds, on gutsy it stops
<mdke> TeTeT: can you give me an example of a document which gives the error with validate.sh?
<mdke> i can't see any
<TeTeT> mdke: I'm writing about the training course - basically none of the training documents validates ...
<mdke> oh. The discussion above with jjesse seems to have been on the understanding that you were talking about our documents...
<mdke> I suppose it's possible that your training documents use a different dtd declaration to ours...
<TeTeT> mdke: nope, I was referring to the one with billycina
<TeTeT> mdke: I hope not :)
<mdke> 15:41:52 < jjesse_> just to make sure i understand if i run the validate.sh script in the docteam svn it will give a ton of errors?
<mdke> 15:46:15 < billycina> sounds about right - yes
<mdke> perhaps I misunderstood. So the dtd declaration is identical?
<mdke> (to our documents)
<TeTeT> mdke: seems we're using version 4.2 instead of 4.1.2
<mdke> right
<mdke> even so, shouldn't be radically different
<TeTeT> yep
<mdke> how were the documents created originally?
<mdke> can I have a look at one?
<TeTeT> mdke: sure, it's all on launchpad
<TeTeT> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~canonical-training/ubuntu-desktop-course/ubuntu-desktop-course-beta
<TeTeT> mdke: we've advised our training partner to use the doc teams docbook tags and stay with this
<TeTeT> mdke: unfortunately it's a rough ride for everybody involved
<mdke> I wonder if the documents were created using a program or something which has made a mistake
<TeTeT> e.g. in concern to content as well as xml
<TeTeT> I'm pretty sure they have a human editing them, working from a template
<TeTeT> I'm also pretty sure that the human editor is unaware of 'validation' or xmllint or anythinbg
<mdke> I see.
<mdke> we seem to use 4.3 in our documents
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml
<TeTeT> ok
<TeTeT> grep -rh DOCTYPE * | sort | uniq
<mdke> i wonder if there is a bug in the gutsy declaration of 4.2. Try 4.3
<TeTeT> ok, most are 4.3
<TeTeT> mdke: no change
<mdke> perhaps the documents are just invalid
<mdke> maybe they built on feisty notwithstanding the errors?
<TeTeT> mdke: seems so
<mdke> you're not using xsltproc?
<TeTeT> mdke: I tend to agree, the docs were bad from the start and now gutsy has something more strict
<TeTeT> mdke: we use xsltproc for the html and dblatex for PDF
<TeTeT> http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~canonical-training/ubuntu-desktop-course/ubuntu-desktop-course-beta/annotate/training%40canonical.com-20071022180423-h3gwq5lotyxdvwgz?file_id=makefile-20070927154211-pp53f1hz3isw2jtg-1
<TeTeT> mdke: I'll probably take a look at the generated tex and see if I find the prob
<mdke> yes, was just looking at that, sorry
<mdke> xsltproc works?
<TeTeT> anyway, need to call it a day, otherwise I'll have someone unhappy at home
<TeTeT> mdke: yes, the HTML is there
<mdke> ah, ok. blame dblatex definitely then
<mdke> good night
<TeTeT> mdke: will do :)
<TeTeT> bye, and thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2007-10-23
<nixternal> ahh, should have yelled if you needed dblatex help
<nixternal> I am in the process of rewriting the kde dblatex scripts for khelpcenter 4
<tonyyarusso> erm, https://help.ubuntu.com/ still doesn't have a tab for 7.10
<sbalneav> mdke: Hey, any chance we could get you to re-run whatever magic necessary to get the new edubuntu-handbook (edubuntu-docs package) up on the web site? http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/
<ubotu> New bug: #156237 in ubuntu-docs (main) "package ubuntu-docs 7.04.4 failed to install/upgrade: " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156237
<TeTeT> what's the docbook analogue to subsection* in LaTex?
<sbalneav> sect1, sect2, sect3, etc.
<TeTeT> sbalneav: but they all appear in the TOC, the section* and subsection* don't
<sbalneav> Don't know, then.
<sbalneav> It's been years since I used TeX
<nixternal> who was having dblatex issues yesterday?
<mdke> sbalneav: fraid that we don't currently have access to that website; it used to update twice daily but I'm waiting on the sysadmins for access
#ubuntu-doc 2007-10-24
<ubotu> New bug: #156630 in ubuntu-docs (main) "typo in "hardware" template" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156630
<tuxcrafter> hello everybody
<tuxcrafter> Is it possible to get a ubuntu wiki mentor?
<seisen> Did you do all of this:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring
<tuxcrafter> seisen: ah perfect
<seisen> no problem
<tuxcrafter> seisen:  now I just have to wait until my latest HOW TO's are approved by a forum administrator.
<seisen> what are they about??
<tuxcrafter> than i can create a wiki backed for them
<tuxcrafter> seisen: pff a lot
<tuxcrafter> lets see
<seisen> you can create the wiki pages without anybody's approval
<tuxcrafter> seisen: no point for me to make wiki without a full support background :-p
<tuxcrafter> Install openchrome video drivers from cvs source
<tuxcrafter> Setting up xfce font rendering settings
<tuxcrafter> Setting up xorg monitor settings
<tuxcrafter> Installation of the SCR335 smartcard reader
<tuxcrafter> Installation of hellanzb nzb downloader
<tuxcrafter> Installation of lib-xine based multimedia codecs
<tuxcrafter> Installation of vmware server
<tuxcrafter> that are them for now I have a lot more but they are still in beta phase
<tuxcrafter> this scripts has been tested and used in production for almost a year now
<tuxcrafter> s/this/these/
<tuxcrafter> I also have a lot not so universal scripts but these are not published yet
<tuxcrafter> therefor I could use the wiki backand
<tuxcrafter> s/backand/backend/
<tuxcrafter> I also would like a mentor for ubuntu packaging
<tuxcrafter> i got a awesome set of scripts for thunar file manager that have also been tested, i am preparing a complete support system for them
<seisen> sounds to me like you have been a little busy
<tuxcrafter> seisen: yes the last years has been busy indeed
<tuxcrafter> I think i am forgetting something but i want to remove all leading spaces until the first character, what am i forgetting? (tabs are next)
<tuxcrafter> description=${description#* }
 * tuxcrafter is losing it maybe the syntax is already correct
<tuxcrafter> description=${description#*$'\t'}
<tuxcrafter> got dammit again the wrong channel
<tuxcrafter> sorry guys
<tuxcrafter> haha
<LaserJock> mdke: around?
<mdke> LaserJock: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<LaserJock> mdke: I was just thinking of a way that might make the initial branching a bit easier for people. LP allows projects to have tarballs for downloads. We could tar up the .bzr and have LP host  it.
<mdke> LaserJock: might work yeah. I don't know much about bzr. The branching is going to be substantial given that each branch (as I understand it) is going to have the whole revision history for the repository in it...
<mdke> I believe LP doesn't support shared repositories over branches
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> so if we had a tarball of the .bzr/
<LaserJock> even 1 per release
<LaserJock> it's save people downloading the vast majority of history
<mdke> how does that work? you download the .bzr then branch and it is fast?
<mdke> alternatively, cant you just avoid downloading all the history?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> although for a lot of people the history might be nice as well
<mdke> well, not much of it :)
<mdke> it's handy to have around but probably the old svn history is not very helpful
<LaserJock> all you do is tar -czf hardy_docs.tar.gz .bzr/ and there you go
<LaserJock> then people download the tarball like any normal file
<mdke> doesn't bzr compress already over the download?
<LaserJock> some
<LaserJock> but the killer is that you are downloading so many individual files
<LaserJock> with this you just download one file
<LaserJock> untar it, abd bam, you have the branch
<mdke> alright, i suggest we do both then; recommend people to branch without the history and keep the history in a tarball for those who want it
<LaserJock> *and
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but doing stuff in history I think is easier with bzr
<mdke> btw just to clarify about the different branches, the idea is to have the common and generic documents in *every* branch, are you clear on that for the purposes of creating the edubuntu ones?
<LaserJock> so we might find it useful more than the svn history
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> basically I'm just going to make the branch how I package it
<mdke> good. I'm going to try and do an xubuntu-hardy one now as an example
<mdke> does the naming scheme work for you?
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> one question I had was if you're going to keep the whole history for xubuntu, etc.
<LaserJock> we *could* make the derivative branches much smaller by starting fresh
<LaserJock> if the ubuntu branch has the complete history then if we really needed it would could use that branch
<mdke> how does one get rid of history? just by exporting and starting a new repository?
<LaserJock> I wonder if it's useful to have 4 copies of the entire svn history
<LaserJock> yeah, that's what I would do
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> I just wondered what you thought of that
<mdke> good question. I don;t know the right answer
<LaserJock> given that we've never really "gone back in history" much
<mdke> very true
<LaserJock> I wonder if it's just wasteful to have multiple copies
<LaserJock> we for sure should have at least one
<mdke> perhaps we should just have a dump of the whole svn repo somewhere and start from scratch with all the new branches
<mdke> I don't see why ubuntu should be heavy and the others not... :)
<mdke> tbh, I dont' really mind what we do about this, I don't know
<LaserJock> well, what we *could* do is have an ubuntu-archive branch
<LaserJock> and then start fresh
<LaserJock> for all
<mdke> is LP clever enough to avoid me uploading all the history 20 times if I'm just creating branches from others already present?
<mdke> if not it will take weeks to upload all these :)
<LaserJock> I don't think so but I don't know for sure
<LaserJock> to LP they are separate branches
<mdke> mpt: got any views on all this? We could do with some advice from someone who uses bzr and knows Launchpad
<mdke> LaserJock: problem with having an ubuntu-archive branch is that we'd need one for trunk, for gutsy, for feisty, for edgy etc because I don't think it's possible (or advisable) to import the whole svn repo to a single branch
<LaserJock> true
<mdke> I might ask lifeless, he's the man for this stuff
<LaserJock> although, if we did just do the archvies as tarballs I wonder if that'd be ok
<LaserJock> mdke: that'd be a good idea, before we go and spend a week pushing branches
<LaserJock> for almost all activity I can think of we don't need the complete history around
<dsas_> I've just done a bzr branch on ubuntu-hardy and it appears bzr tries to download the branch as a tarball anyway
<dsas_> (when using bzr+ssh transport)
<dsas_> though my laptop just ran out of memory and died when attempting it.
<LaserJock> lol
<mdke> LaserJock: ok, getting solutions from #bzr
<mdke> from our side, someone will help with the uploads of the branches to LP by doing it from somewhere close (i assume inside the DC)
<mdke> for downloads, you can just download the revision history once with multiple branches by using a shared repository
<mdke> i think that gets round the problems
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, great
<nothlit> hey guys, i'm wondering what license everything in the wiki is under?
<mdke> nothlit: the help wiki is under cc-by-sa (see the footer)
<nothlit> mdke: is there a preferred method of attribution or would a commented link do?
<mdke> good question, we should add that to the License page. I'm sure a commented link will work
<mdke> ah, there is something about it on the page already :)
<mdke> nothlit: see the page, does it answer your question?
<nothlit> mdke: ahh ok, great
<LaserJock> mdke: so are we doing a shared repository then?
<mdke> LaserJock: I need to find out how it's done. then we can add it to the instructions for getting the branches
<nothlit> mdke: those small footer links are a bit misleading next to the web badge, they look like generic company stuff rather than places to look wiki-relevant info
<mdke> nothlit: I tend to agree
<mpt> mdke, did you get answers to your Bazaar questions?
<mpt> (bbiab, replacing battery)
<mdke> mpt: yes, from #bzr. However there seems to be an issue with storing so much revision history on LP; it will take up a lot of disk space and so we're considering just splitting the branches for derivatives from hardy, leaving a single branch for the previous releases
<mdke> gah
<mpt> mdke, ok
<mpt> Revision history can be useful to find out when a particular part was written/revised
<mpt> and by whom
<mpt> but I guess that needs to be weighed against download time
<mdke> the issue seems to be more about server side disk space
<mdke> users can download without history, right?
 * mdke tickles mpt
<mpt> mdke, sure, that's what lightweight checkouts are for
<mdke> mpt: right
<mdke> so the issue is more a question of space on the LP side
<mpt> How big is the history in bzr format?
<mpt> ubuntu-docs should be tiny in comparison with some projects Launchpad dreams of hosting :-)
<mdke> something like 200MB (would be 16 branches)
<mpt> wow
<mpt> Why is that? Lots of images?
<LaserJock> only 200MB?
<mdke> I suspect the revision history is text only
<LaserJock> I would have thought closer to >500MB at least
<mdke> LaserJock: per branch?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> maybe bzr is more efficient then I thought ;-)
<mdke> the ubuntu-hardy branch is 220MB
<mdke> actually proably the branches are with translations  a lot bigger
<mdke> but the ubuntu-hardy branch has all the revisions relevant to svn trunk
<mdke> LaserJock: anyway, we have an edubuntu-hardy branch now so feel free to go and clean it up, remove whatever you don't want
<LaserJock> mdke: awesome, thanks
<mdke> probably for the other previous releases we won't have separate branches for derivatives, due to this space issue
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> we mostly just need to move forward :-)
<mdke> when LP implements shared repositories, then we can do whatever we want
 * tuxcrafter is broken, see you all over 8 hours
<tonyyarusso> I know the appropriate response is "So fix it", but until I magically find time I'd like to point out that https://help.ubuntu.com/ still lacks a 7.10 tab.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-10-25
<Flannel> tonyyarusso: Report it as a bug
<nnonix> Well hopefully the delay is because they are rewriting much of it for 7.10 as so much has changed in regards to Multimedia, Server Installations, etc, etc.
<tonyyarusso> Flannel: righto
<tonyyarusso> nnonix: yeah.  Would be good to have those ready closer to the release though
<jjesse> hrmm i wonder if this what was intended
<jjesse> http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-hardy/files
<jjesse> has the entire svn of trunk in it?
<mdke> tonyyarusso: yes, we know
<mdke> tonyyarusso: there is a bug already
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Cool.  Then I don't have to go look for it after I'm done waiting for LP :)
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Any estimate on when it will be fixed?
<tonyyarusso> (The people at my LoCo team's release party pointed it out to me)
<mdke> tonyyarusso: not really, it's quite difficult
<mdke> but soon
<tonyyarusso> 'k
<ubotu> New bug: #155630 in ubuntu-docs (main) "After md5sum of a Ubuntu DVD the optical drive is unresponsive" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/155630
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4484 generic/server/C/databases.xml:
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/databases.xml
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation:  Updates for postgresql section.
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer <asommer70@gmail.com>
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4485 generic/serverguide/C/databases.xml:
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/databases.xml
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation:  Updates for postgresql section.
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer <asommer70@gmail.com>
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4486 generic/server/C/databases.xml:
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/databases.xml
<CIA-6> Ubuntu Documentation:  s/Postgresql/PostgreSQL/
<sommer> hey all, I just noticed that 7.10 isn't available as a tab at: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/.
<sommer> just wondering when that gets updated?
<jjesse> nixternal: got a second?
<nixternal> sure
<jjesse> so what directories do we need to keep in svn for the package to build correctlY?
<nixternal> common/ libs/ kubuntu/
<jjesse> not debian?
<jjesse> or generic
<jjesse> or teamstuff?
<nixternal> debian is under kubuntu/
<nixternal> we don't need any of that
<jjesse> ok cleaning up the directory
<jjesse> thanks that is it
<mdke> nixternal: you don't need generic???
<mdke> jjesse: i would think twice before removing the generic folder - unless you know otherwise. I assume kubuntu uses the serverguide?
<jjesse> mkok i won't
<jjesse> doh
<jjesse> mdke: i won't remeove generic
<nixternal> we don't use generic
<nixternal> err, he left...missed him
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> nixternal: how come?
<mdke> ok, xubuntu-hardy is done
<nixternal> mdke: there is nothing in generic for us
<jjesse> i will take care of kubuntu-hardy, keep running into problems at werk
<mdke> nixternal: I mean, how come you don't use the server material?
<nixternal> leave that for ubuntu server I guess
<mdke> alright, I assumed you did
<nixternal> if they want it, they can apt-get ubuntu-serverguide
<mdke> jjesse: I can do it, it's really quick now we have the branches all imported
<nixternal> are we going to switch 100% to bzr?
<jjesse> mdke: go ahead i'm a litle busy at work right now
<mdke> nixternal: what do you mean?
<nixternal> are we going to move away from svn and go with bzr totally, or are we going to maintain the seperate branches between them both?
<nixternal> probably if I reread the email I would find that wouldn't I?
<nixternal> mdke: I figured you went wth the decision because jjesse lost his password yet again :p
<mdke> nixternal: i think having both would be really difficult. The various threads we've had have seemed pretty much 100% consensus in favour of bzr
<mdke> but yeah, jjesse's memory was the deciding factor
<mdke> ok, kubuntu-hardy is pushed up, I moved the debian directory up one folder, right nixternal?
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> debian/ was always inside the kubuntu/ directory, but it doesn't matter...having it outside is probably just once command quicker though :)
<nixternal> sounds good to me though..thanks
<nixternal> bah, I have to do this OpenWeek talk in like 35 minutes
<mdke> nixternal: when building the package, don't you move it down a directory?I thought it was only inside the kubuntu directory because of the presence of the ubuntu debian directory
<nixternal> you are correct
<mdke> cool
<mdke> part of the reason to have separate branches for each derivative was to enable the debian directory to be in the right place now
<nixternal> works for me...actually easier that way so if we add a Kubuntu person, we don't have to worry about them snooping over to Ubuntu :)
<mdke> nixternal: well, the team with permissions to commit is the same
<nixternal> although I must say, I took a long hard look at Yelp today and the docs look great in it
<nixternal> been a while since I installed Ubuntu, so I did it today to check it out
<mdke> :)
<nixternal> popey is doing a killer talk on screencasts...maybe I will finally attempt to do one again
#ubuntu-doc 2007-10-26
<mdke> morning
<tuxcrafter> hello everybody
<tuxcrafter> I am updating my ubuntu wiki page
<tuxcrafter> And i would like some formatting help
<tuxcrafter> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TuxCrafter
<tuxcrafter> i would like to know how i can crate newlines
<tuxcrafter> so the forum links go under the descriptions
<tuxcrafter> and how to create tabs to create a lite structure
<tuxcrafter> i looked at the format help but did not find any helping info, did i overlooked it?
<tuxcrafter> somebody here that would like to help me?
<sommer> tuxcrafter: try the br macro: [[BR]] it may do the trick
<tuxcrafter> sommer: thanks lets try
<tuxcrafter> sommer: do you now were to find a list of all these markups
<tuxcrafter> sommer: [[BR]] worked btw
<tuxcrafter> [[TAB]] did not
<sommer> tuxcrafter: try this page for other macros: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnMacros
<tuxcrafter> Does somebody knows a way to create sort links to forum topics
<tuxcrafter> because i have this message
<tuxcrafter> Your signature can not be longer than 500 characters including BBCode markup.
<tuxcrafter> OpenChrome Driver -- SCR335 Smartcard -- Hellanzb Usenet -- Vmware Server -- XFCE Font Rendering -- Xorg lcd 96 dpi setup
<tuxcrafter> and that is the only visable thing
<tuxcrafter> but markup code is more
<tuxcrafter> because of the long links names
<mdke> ok, the commit email list works for bzr
<tuxcrafter> hello everybody,
<tuxcrafter> does somebody have experience with the xtoolwait tool
<tuxcrafter> how is it preforming?
 * tuxcrafter is posting to the wrong channel
 * tuxcrafter pidgin needs an extra configuration option 
#ubuntu-doc 2007-10-27
<TimBosse> ooo...
<mdke> moin
<nixternal> #ubuntu-classroom for the OpenWeek Ubuntu Documentation Talk
<TeTeT> how do I make a reference to a table in docbook, e.g. \ref{table1:comparison} in latex?
<TeTeT> nixternal: are you in Boston already?
<nixternal> TeTeT: I wish I was in Boston..won't be making it this go round :(
<TeTeT> nixternal: oh, too bad, thought I could meet you here and discuss the adoption of the Desktop Course for Kubuntu
<nixternal> dang, now that I would love to talk about...Jonathan Jesse will be there though for you to talk to about it
<TeTeT> nixternal: ok
<mdke> nixternal: how did the talk go?
<nixternal> not to shabby...got slapped with a wiki license question which I got through thanks to the /Licensing page, and localized documentation, which of course I referred you for :)
<mdke> aha
<nixternal> Saturday's aren't the best day for talks, hardly anyone shows up
<mdke> oh right
<nixternal> mdke: are we working out of the SVN or BZR repos now?
<mdke> nixternal: well, either. I'm kinda waiting for a response to my email about whether we need to do anything else before switching
<nixternal> OK...I was going to start a new document for KDE...so maybe I will just start it in SVN and move it over once we are ready
<nixternal> s/KDE/Kubuntu
<mdke> if you install bzr-svn, you can merge from svn branches just like from bzr branches, so it's easy to move
<nixternal> let me check that out...don't know if I have installed that or not
<nixternal> nope, installing it now..thanks for that one
<mdke> best to get a recent version from debian unstable
<mdke>  0.4.3-1
<nixternal> OK, if there is a difference I will merge the package then for Hardy
<nixternal> and there is a difference
<mdke> nixternal: bzr is working and ready to use, so if you are comfortable with it, you can go ahead rather than working in svn and then merging
<nixternal> great, I will start there then
<nixternal> thanks!
<mdke> if you have a look at DocumentationTeam/Bazaar, I'd appreciate it if you see anything confusing or which could be improved
<nixternal> I will do taht
<mdke> argh, we have some serious mess in Launchpad
<mdke> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs
<seisen> are you talking about the Jubuntu thing???
<nixternal> serious mess as in I can't check out from BZR because of an error
<mdke> seisen: the whole thing.
<mdke> nixternal: no. What's your error?
<nixternal> bzr: ERROR: Repository KnitRepository('file:///home/nixternal/.bzr/') is not compatible with repository KnitRepository3('http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-hardy/.bzr/')
<mdke> you're trying to download it into a shared repository which doesn't support the format used by our branch
<mdke> you have a shared repository in your home folder??
<nixternal> don't know why I would, but there is a .bzr dir
<mdke> yeah, that's what it is
<mdke> check out the DocumentationTeam/Bazaar page, it tells you how to create a compatible shared repository (if you want one)
<mdke> we have a slightly experimental format in our branches, because the svn import uses it automatically
<nixternal> nope, that wasn't it...I removed it and it is still doing it
<mdke> create a fresh directory and try
<nixternal> now it is rolling
<nixternal> that was odd
<mdke> hey mpt
<nixternal> how goeth Boston this fine fall evening?
 * nixternal loves the "Fetch phase" effect....and..on...and...on...and...on...and :)
<mdke> yeah, it will take a while
<nixternal> I could probably drive out to Boston and back by the time it is over with
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> after the initial checkout, everything is good there on after
<nixternal> lol
<mdke> I think what we need to do in terms of project structure on LP is to have a project for each of ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu and xubuntu and an umbrella project for the group as a whole ("ubuntu-docs"?)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-10-28
<mdke> or maybe we should have a single project with different release series; /me doesn't understand launchpad
<nixternal> I was just thinking the same exact thing
<nixternal> ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, edubuntu-docs, and xubuntu-docs? is that what you were thinking?
<mdke> yeah. I think I'll ask the LP list for advice, it's not clear cut. Plus it's ridiculous that you need projects for distro specific things anyway :)
<nixternal> hehe, plus it isn't like we have enough teams as it is
<nixternal> if we have kubuntu-docs, then just to add more trouble, I will add a team for each section of the docs :)
<mdke> no, i was just talking about projects; I think it's fundamental we keep a single team
<mdke> now we are using bzr it should be pretty easy to merge changes and share stuff, but we need to keep everyone working together for that
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> holy smokes. the kubuntu-docs are still downloading
<nixternal> I forgot all about them
<mdke> hah
<nixternal> 3/4 now
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Erm, I'm confused by your marking of https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/130680 as Fix Released, as https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/internet/C/web-design.html is still wrong.
<tonyyarusso> mdke: The proper text for the page would be s/NVU/KompoZer/ & s/nvu/kompozer/, and specify that the user will need to enable the universe section of the feisty *backports* repository.
<tonyyarusso> mdke: I'm not sure if gnome-app-install supports backports either...if it does it will be under Internet, not Office.  Otherwise Synaptic will be needed.
<tonyyarusso> I'm off for a bit, but will be back
<posingaspopular> hey all. I'm reading the logs for Ubuntu Open Week (I was afk for most of it) and I'm noticing some small errors in the docs, mainly artitrary stuff like Ubuntu being spelled 'ubuntu' and a missing question mark. Seeing as how it's a wiki, would it be okay for me to go in and make some trivial changes, or would someone get mad at me for it?
<posingaspopular> i'm not an offical member of the project because I haven't applied through the CC
<posingaspopular> popey: ping. i have a question about the open week logs, which i posted above.
<mdke> posingaspopular: yes, on the wiki you can just go straight ahead and edit to improve things
<mdke> posingaspopular: there is no need to be a member of the project, although if you're interested in contributing regularly you should sign up to the mailing list and maybe read the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiTeam page
<bbyman> is anyone aware of the hardware requirements to host a mirror of ubuntu?
<jpatrick> http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/mirror
<bbyman> thank you
<Sammi__> hello
<mpt> hi mdke
<posingaspopular> mdke: thanks for the response
<TeTeT> does anyone know when help.ubuntu.com will be serving the 7.10 help?
<visualdeception> exit
<TeTeT> does anyone know what this message is about:
<TeTeT> Element include in namespace 'http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude' encountered in book, but no template matches.
<TeTeT> nevermind
<mdke> TeTeT: for the first question, in the next few days.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-10-20
<lfaraone> Hey, how would I register a DocBook collection of docs for FooPackage with yelp/scrollkeeper so that they show up in yelp?  (for documentation-only packages)
<kirkland> mdke: ping
<mdke> kirkland: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<kirkland> mdke: curious if you got a chance to try the updated search
<mdke> kirkland: fraid not, I'm frantic at work this week and will have to focus any free Ubuntu time I get on getting the last ubuntu-docs upload ready before release
<mdke> kirkland: maybe later in the week though :(
<kirkland> mdke: k, no worries
<kirkland> mdke: ping me later, when you have time then
<mdke> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2008-10-21
<shirish> hi all, I'm doing some changes to the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NetworkManager , what I don't understand is why Configuration is not coming in the contents thing.
<sommer> shirish: extra white spaces at the end?
<shirish> sommer: shouldn't there be a single space between two something like this == configuration == ?
<sommer> shirish: yep, but not after the last ==
<sommer> |== configuration==|
<sommer> err |== configuration ==|
<sommer> I believe there's a check box that will remove whitespace at the end of lines
<shirish> sommer: this should ideally be in Preferences as well, specifically for newbies, what do you think?
<sommer> I'm not sure, there's probably times where you'd want spaces at the end
<shirish> sommer: ok, cool.
<shirish> sommer: thanx
<shirish> hi all, how do I tell when writing a wiki, that some documentation needs to come on the next line?
<Pici> Is there a page somewhere that explains changes in xorg.conf in Intrepid?  i.e, that things should work automagically now?
<shirish> does anybody know of any good resources for editing images?
<shirish> can somebody help me, I've upload couple of pics, I want to adjust them in the page, I'm not happy with the way they are adjusted now, can somebody help me?
<cody-somerville> Can someone do me a favour? :)
<cody-somerville> Can you take xubuntu-docs in NCommander's PPA (https://edge.launchpad.net/~sonicmctails/+archive) and ensure it validates and all that good stuff? :)
<shirish> does anybody know why I'm not able to view images in the wiki atm?
<mdke> cody-somerville: I don't have time right now, but the scripts/validate.sh file should do the trick if you run it over each of the documents
<cody-somerville> mdke, over each doc?
<mdke> cody-somerville: yes (for x in `cat libs/shipped-docs ; do scripts/validate.sh ${x}/C/${x}.xml ; done)
<mdke> whoops, missed a `, but you get the idea
<lfaraone> Anybody about?
<lfaraone> I'm playing around with the creation of a -docs packaging script I'm writing, but I seem to have found a problem...
<lfaraone> The script takes a DocBook file, some metadata, and (theoretically) outputs a working python package.
<lfaraone> My example package is "booktest-doc" at https://edge.launchpad.net/~flossmanuals/+archive, but it doesn't seem to be shoiwing up in yelp.
<mdke> "showing up" in what way?
<lfaraone> mdke: well, when you search for something in the sample DocBook, it doesn't appear in the search results.
<lfaraone> mdke: (how else does one nav to a spesific doc...)
<lfaraone> mdke: I have a feeling I'm forgetting something in my postinstall script.
<mdke> do you install an omf file?
<mdke> possibly yelp still requires an omf file, although I'm not sure. You'll have better luck asking the yelp developers
 * mdke has to go to bed now, very early flight tomorow
<mdke> see you later
<lfaraone> mdke: huh, what's an OMF file...
<lfaraone> mdke: ah...
#ubuntu-doc 2008-10-22
<cody-somerville> mdke, ping
<mdke> cody-somerville: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<cody-somerville> mdke, Can you add some branding for ~ubuntu-core-doc ?
<cody-somerville> How do I disable the draft watermark?
<mpt> cody-somerville, https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/zap.html#zap_colors
 * cody-somerville blinks.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-10-23
<DoruHush> hello
<dinda> ping jjesse
<dinda> ping nixternal
<DoruHush> I have a question regarding the Ubuntu Training Course translation into Romanian
<dinda> DoruHush:  trying to find you someone who might be able to answer your question
<DoruHush> we manage to translate the course
<dinda> jenda: ping
<DoruHush> ï»¿dinda: I hope they will read sometime today what I write, I'm not in a hurry
<dinda> I'll see if I can get nxvl over here too
<dinda> go ahead and post your question and someone will read it and respond - hopefully :)
<DoruHush> yes
<DoruHush> So, ï»¿we manage to translate the course but we have problems with
<DoruHush> with the conversion from xml to pdf
<DoruHush> with the diachritics
<jjesse> ping dinda
<DoruHush> it can't convert È È È È , they are not recognized
<DoruHush> if I use cedilla instead of comma-below alls well
<DoruHush> ï»¿jjesse: hello
<DoruHush> dinda ping you for me
<DoruHush> if you can help with my problem
<dinda> nxvl is on his way over too
<nxvl> i'm here actually
<nxvl> :D
<dinda> nxvl - meet DoruHush
<DoruHush> hello ï»¿nxvl:
<nxvl> hi!
<dinda> can you tell your problem, one more time please, DoruHush?
<nxvl> so, what am i good for?
<DoruHush> I try, is hard
<DoruHush> ï»¿I have a question regarding the Ubuntu Training Course translation into Romanian
<DoruHush> ï»¿we manage to translate the course
<DoruHush> ï»¿but we have problems with
<DoruHush> ï»¿the conversion from xml to pdf
<DoruHush> ï»¿with the diachritics
<DoruHush> ï»¿it can't convert È È È È , they are not recognized
<DoruHush> ï»¿if I use cedilla instead of comma-below alls well
<nxvl> you can actually use rosseta (launchpad translation module) for transtaling
<nxvl> i'm sure it will manage to build correct .po files
<nxvl> oh!
<nxvl> right
<nxvl> your problem is with the system building those
<nxvl> i'm not sure if xml supports that tough
<DoruHush> I use the script from the bzr repo of the course
<nxvl> it may have a notation like html's acute;
<DoruHush> no, I have po files
<nxvl> my repo
<nxvl> ?
<DoruHush> maded with xml2po
<nxvl> heh
<nxvl> yeah, that's mine
<DoruHush> and worked very well
<DoruHush> no problem there
<nxvl> i'm not sure about a solution, i'm more a developer than a translator, but yes that's an issue with unicode
<DoruHush> xml to pdf is the problem
<nxvl> in spanish we use UTF-8, that works in Romanian too?
<nxvl> DoruHush: oh, ok, the problem is with the encoding
<DoruHush> should I set an environment variable somwere?
<nxvl> maybe
<nxvl> how is that you are making the xml2pdf
<DoruHush> utf-8 is the only that work
<nxvl> mmm
<DoruHush> if have to use utf-8 what should I do?
<DoruHush> I made the xml2pdf with the sacript from the bzr repo of the course
<DoruHush> script*
<DoruHush> I use the makefile (make or make with options)
<nxvl> can i take a look at that script
<DoruHush> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~canonical-training/ubuntu-desktop-course/ubuntu-desktop-course-beta/files
<DoruHush> it is that one
<nxvl> and how did you generate the xmls from the pot files?
<nxvl> i'm sure there is a way to generate the .po's, then translate everything there
<nxvl> and then build the pdf's from the original xml's and using the .po's too
<nxvl> the problem is, how?
<DoruHush> for each xml  file I made a pot file
<DoruHush> after that I made a po file from pot
<DoruHush> after that I made the translations
<DoruHush> aftre that back to the xml
<nxvl> and you shold stop there
<nxvl> then run the makefile
<nxvl> and everything should be done automagically
<nxvl> that's the idea of the .po files
<nxvl> now, how to make that happend
<nxvl> i have no idea
<DoruHush> I don't know how to use po file to make the pdf
<DoruHush> the makefile only deals with xml files
<DoruHush> I've made the pdf, and work well if I use cedilaa instead o coma-below
<nxvl> yeah, i'm not sure how it works, really
<nxvl> i hope i can help, but i have no idea
<DoruHush> hehe
<nxvl> with TeTeT we get into this problem too, but i never got the time to solve it
<DoruHush> you said something about utf-8
<nxvl> that's why we left this just here
<nxvl> yup
<nxvl> that encoding
<DoruHush> how do I use them ?
<nxvl> you might ask in -translation if there is such a channel
<DoruHush> ok, thanks for all
<nxvl> DoruHush: run this in a terminal please:
<nxvl> echo $LANG
<DoruHush> ro_RO.UTF-8
<DoruHush> I read a lot (not understand much) about LaTex
<DoruHush> and those characters are a really problem
#ubuntu-doc 2008-10-25
<slytherin> Hi all, does anyone have any sample docbook document which uses SVG image? I am trying to verify a fix for fop but I don't have any test data.
<mdke> slytherin: we don't, no
<technomensch> good afternoon all
<technomensch> how is everyone?
<DougieRichardson> very well - you?
<technomensch> I'm good
<technomensch> Trying to make a decision though
<technomensch> and I could also use someone to help me respond to Scott Kitterman's emails to me/the mailing list.
<Rocket2DMn> technomensch, you pinged me earlier?
<DougieRichardson> what email?
<DougieRichardson> about konqueror?
<technomensch> yea rocket.  don't remember what for though
<technomensch> yes dougie
<Rocket2DMn> k
<technomensch> do you think we need to change the colors?  or any idea what he is talking about?
<DougieRichardson> we're not talking about his email on https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/259436 then?
<technomensch> I don't know if that's the same one or not.  I'm not subscribed to the bugs.  I'm talking about my correspondence with him on the mailing list.  Although, I'm betting it might be the same
<DougieRichardson> all thats on the list is about moin moin and the openid login problem, is there other stuff in his mails
<technomensch> yes.  from what I gather, he wants to know why I used "brown" as the main color for the menu bar on the community team home page.  and it looked like something else about it not showing up correctly in either older versions or konqueror
<DougieRichardson> is this reproducable?
<technomensch> not from my end.  I'm currently not home and doing wiki work on Windows machines.  I CC'ed the mailing list with hopes that someone can reproduce it
<technomensch> as for the "brown" in the menu bar, with ubuntu vs. kubuntu, I don't want to get into that argument.
<DougieRichardson> lol real men use twm
<technomensch> it doesn't "go" with the kubuntu theme
<technomensch> twm?
<DougieRichardson> when all else fails there's twm http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Twm.png
<DougieRichardson> oops gotta go pick up the missus, brb
<technomensch> mdke, you in here?
<mdke> technomensch: yes
<Atamira> :o
<Atamira> ppl are actually talking in here
<technomensch> yes.
<technomensch> we do come in to communicate with each other from time to time
<mdke> go on then!
<mdke> technomensch: was there something you were going to ask me?
<mdke> technomensch: by the way, about my email "front page for help.ubuntu.com", I think you misunderstood: it's not about the front page of help.ubuntu.com/community, it's about the main front page for help.ubuntu.com (i.e. *not* the help wiki)
<technomensch> so you mean help.ubuntu.com, not help.ubuntu.com/community??
<mdke> yes
<technomensch> I see.
<technomensch> Um....
<technomensch> I guess...ooops in order?
<technomensch> yea, that definitely needs a revamp
<mdke> no worries
<mdke> it mainly needs a revamp because of the change of theme
<technomensch> but how do we make it so it links to the "current" version
<technomensch> of the docs that is
<mdke> sorry, I don't understand the question
<mdke> it already links to the correct version of the documents
<technomensch> right, but when it gets upgrade to 8.10
<technomensch> who does that?
<mdke> me
<technomensch> and if you were talking about the theme itself, yea, let dougie do that.  I'm still learning css
<technomensch> gotcha.
<mdke> no, the theme is ok; but the contents need to change a bit
<mdke> I think Phil has some ideas about it
<technomensch> but the theme of help. doesn't match the theme on /community
<technomensch> it still looks like the old one
<mdke> i mean, the work on the theme has already been done
<mdke> you can see it here: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<DougieRichardson> hi matt, @techno i've just mailed you - i see matt is clearing it up
<technomensch> yeppers.  I see that
<technomensch> so where are the changes to the home page we are talking about being made?  on that page you just linked me?
<technomensch> nm. I see that's for the about-us
<mdke> nowhere
<technomensch> I think for this upgrade to 8.10, I'm going to stay out of this cleanup portion.
<technomensch> better to let you guys who've been doing it for a while and have a handle on it...as an annoying guy here in the states says "gettr' done"
<technomensch> and, he IS annoying :)
<mdke> ok, we'll see what Dougie comes up with, and Phil is he is around
<technomensch> do you understand the email that I recieved about the wiki.ubuntu.com home page???
<mdke> yes
<technomensch> I'll look at what you guys do and make suggestions via email.
<mdke> just click on this link to understand: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/
<DougieRichardson> mdke: What time frame are you aiming for?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: whenever possible, I guess. Ideally we'd get the site update out in time for the release, but I'm not confident from my side that I'll be able to get everything ready
<mdke> am travelling a bit on business this week and generally very busy at work
<mdke> also, I'm still waiting for the sysadmins to give me access to the server
<technomensch> AH.  I SEE
<DougieRichardson> I'm busy but not swamped, I haven't heard from Phil in a while.
<technomensch> Ok.  the problem is, I was just using the exact same colors that it was using previously
<mdke> DougieRichardson: we'll just do what we can :)
<technomensch> whomever made the release schedule table used those same colors
<mdke> technomensch: oh, that's true! I guess because that table was hidden at the bottom, he never noticed it
<DougieRichardson> mdke: that should be our mantra ;-)
<mdke> technomensch: you can refer Scott to this link then: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Home?action=recall&rev=186
<mdke> DougieRichardson: yep
<mdke> hmm, i see someone spammed that page with attachments
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home?action=AttachFile
 * mdke gets cliccking
<DougieRichardson> mdke:who was the uploader
<mdke> DougieRichardson: https://launchpad.net/~enri75ac6
<mdke> maybe a genuine mistake, hasn't hidden the email address
<technomensch> I also got an email from launchpad, someone changed my information
<DougieRichardson> mdke: consistant with the username spambot was generating, checking launchpad
<technomensch> someone called "https://launchpad.net/~myniugga"
<technomensch> "juzzmane updated your location and time zone"
<technomensch> not sure if they are related to this, or not
<mdke> no, unrelated. launchpad allows people to set your location unless you have already set it yourself
<technomensch> um, ok.  I have to go.  I'll check the mailing list later.  ta
<DougieRichardson> that user hasn't the usual one word bug answer, it may be a mistake or a new script
<little> Anybody know if Technomensch has been in here recently?
<DougieRichardson> yes
<mdke> yeah, he left a short time ago
<little> Darn. He emailed me and asked if I could meet him in here. Is he coming back>
<mdke> 22:22:38 < technomensch> um, ok.  I have to go.  I'll check the mailing list later.  ta
<DougieRichardson> dont think so
<little> We've been talking about updating https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Formatting.
<little> I have an alternative layout/design of the page here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/littlergirl
<mdke> little: you know, I don't believe you are really a little girl. You don't come across as little at all.
<jjesse> lol i agree i dont think either ;)
<little> I'm not. I'm a full grown 46 year old woman. (:
<little> It's just that I'm a former truck driver and that's been my handle forever. (:
<mdke> I knew it!
<little> LOL
<mdke> hmm.
<mdke> you drove a truck as a little girl?
<jjesse> ha
<mdke> that worries me
<little> You couldn't possibly have guessed my exact age!
<jjesse> that was your cb handle?
<little> No, as a grownup. (:
<mdke> yes, true
<little> Yeah.
<little> I'm small, so the handle fits. (:
<mdke> yeah, I had in mind that there was another meaning of "little", but it didn't fit my joke
<mdke> ok. so formatting
<little> Believe it or not, the only place anyone ever questions my username/handle is on the internet. Out in the real world it didn't bother anyone. (:
<little> Yeah, take a look at the example I've been working on. I think it's gentler and easier to understand.
<mdke> (it doesn't bother us either... I was just messing around)
<DougieRichardson> how did you see over the wheel?
<little> I used tables instead of code blocks so that I could capture {{{ and }}} properly. It was terrible on the original page.
<little> Truck seats are adjustable. (:
<mdke> so that page looks excellent. the section headings are a bit screwy but otherwise it is pretty clear in terms of structure
<little> The headings are only screwy because it's on my home page. Once it's on its own page, it should lay out nicely.
<mdke> I mean, in section number 3, you have skipped a level for the sub-sections
<mdke> I like the way the page is detailed without compromising on clarity, very good
<little> Checking...
<little> Oh yes. I did that for a reason. If you do a level two header instead of level three headers, you get a line beneath each, which makes it harder to distinguish the separate sections. Is there a way to do a level two header without a line?
<mdke> no, but that only happens with the old theme
<little> I had done them like this originally: '''Header'''<<br>>
<mdke> you need to use the sections sequentially, otherwise the table of contents doesn't work
<little> How's this? I changed the first two headers in section three now.
<little> If I use this method, there won't be a subsection in the Table of Contents under Basic Content.
<mdke> best to use the headings normally. It will look better with the new theme, don't worry
<little> Okay, let me try it and see if it still looks okay. I didn't like it. I'll let you guys decide. (:
<little> How's this?
<little> Link, just in case: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/littlergirl#preview
<little> It looks really busy with the default theme.
<mdke> that's the theme's fault though
<mdke> it's the right way to write the page :)
<little> The Table of Contents table is running off the right side of the center portion of the screen for me with the ubuntunew theme. I'll play with table width to see if I can fix that.
<mdke> yeah, that's a pain
<mdke> i think it's a moin bug myself
<little> Changing it with <tablestyle="width: 60%"> doesn't seem to do anything. Is there a new method?
<mdke> you're missing a ;
<mdke> little: there ya go :)
<little> Fixed. (:
<little> Took me a while. I couldn't figure out what to do with the ; so I just borrowed the code I used for the table that shows the Example Page.
<mdke> oh, sorry.
<little> I know there's some stuff missing from this page, but it's the basics, and I got the impression that the Formatting page is for the basics, right? And links to more involved help are at the bottom.
<mdke> in the thing you posted above, it goes after the %
<little> Yeah, I tried that and it didn't fix it. It still ran off the right side of the page. I just do not like that new theme. (:
<mdke> little: yes, that's right
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> little: sorry to hear you don't like it
<little> I think I'm just used to the old one, so I resist the change since it's so drastic.
<little> Is there any way I can grab a copy of the ubuntu theme for my personal wiki? I'm running MoinMoin in the desktop version.
<mdke> don't worry, I'm sure the Ubuntu website will get a redesign in the next 12 months or so anyway
<little> Oh good. I might join in the creative efforts. (:
<mdke> ok, keep an eye on the ubuntu-website mailing list. Canonical is recruiting designers so I guess they'll get the job, but hopefully it will be a collaborative effort
<little> If nothing else, they may ask for opinions from the community even if they don't make it a collaborative effort, right?
<little> By the way, you can edit the CategoryCategory page if you have access to the actual file on the server (to fix the reference to nonexistent macros).
<mdke> little: hope so
<mdke> little: I don't have access, but I can edit the page I think
<mdke> what's the error?
<mdke> (for the wiki themes, see https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/helptheme and https://code.launchpad.net/~mdke/ubuntu-doc/helpwiki-newtheme)
<little> Additionally, you can add lists of all pages which are members of that particular category to the category page using macros like this:
<little> Then there'
<little> Then there's nothing beneath it, so the colon is leading in to nothing.
<mdke> I'm not sure how to fix that. Because the colon is really leading to something, what the author means is that what follows the colon uses macros...
<mdke> (the page lists are produced using macros)
<little> Ah, then you want something like this: {{{<<PageList(@PAGE@)>>}}}
<little> And this: {{{<<FullSearchCached(category:Category@PAGE@)>>}}}
<little> And this: {{{<<FullSearch(category:Category@PAGE@)>>}}}
<mdke> I don't really want to put code in the page, it will look pretty awkward. I've tried to clarify the language, see what you think
<mdke> I've changed the language again now, on reflection
<little> Checking...
<little> It looks good, although instead of "you can add" you might want to put "you can use macros to add".
<mdke> good idea, done
<little> I just took the line out entirely on my personal copy. (:
<little> Ah, excellent, with a link to help on macros!
<little> I think Technomensch still has some ideas for the Formatting page. Should we wait until we feel we have a finished product and then run it by the mailing list?
<mdke> that would be good
<little> By the way, I got three of these in email:
<little> You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on "Community Ubuntu Documentation" for change notification.
<little> Each had this reference:
<little> The following page has been changed by dtl131:
<little> http://help.ubuntu.com/community/RadeonHD?action=diff&rev1=3&rev2=4
<little> I'm not subscribed to that page...
<little> Who do I contact to fix it? Or should I maybe subscribe and unsubscribe to the page?
<mdke> that's very odd
<mdke> is it possible the page was renamed and you subscribed to the previous page?
<mdke> or that you have a subscription to a regex?
<little> Yeah. Two came on 10/24/08 at 11:57 and 11:59 PM and one came on 10/25/08 at 02:26 AM.
<little> I had done a wildcard subscription to CategoryCategory. Could that have done it?
<mdke> don't think so, no
<little> I have an NVIDIA, so I wouldn't have subscribed to anything with Radeon.
<mdke> although, the page contains the word "CategoryCategory", for some reason
<little> I also went to the page while I was logged in (like now), and it says Subscribe to this page rather than Unsubscribe to this page.
<little> Ah, that might do it. (:
<mdke> that must be it, weird though that is
<little> Ah, that's from the DocumentationTemplate page. That's the example that used to be at the bottom of it.
 * mdke nods
<little> Maybe I'll put that wildcard subscription back on and then remove those links as the emails come in notifying me of them. (:
<mdke> that would be a public service, thanks
<mdke> I'm off, thanks for the work
<little> Is this right? CategoryCategory.* I forget how I did the link. It might have been CategoryCategory/.*
<little> Any time. (:
<mdke> no idea, sorry
<little> I'll try both maybe. (:
#ubuntu-doc 2008-10-26
<little> Hi again, Dougie. (:
<DougieRichardson> hi!
<DougieRichardson> can't sleep - worried I'll forget clocks go back
<little> LOL. Why not just set them back?
<little> They don't go back until November 4!
<little> So you can sleep. (:
<DougieRichardson> they go back tonight - in the UK
<little> Ah, I didn't realize you did them on different days. Learn something new every day. (:
<DougieRichardson> in 5 minutes time... 0200 on the last Sunday in October.
<DougieRichardson> I'm sure someone asked that hardware list to come on board a while back.
<little> Will you be allowed to go to sleep once they do?
<DougieRichardson> LoL
<little> Those hardware pages need some love. If that page is well structured, then those guys would be a great addition. (:
<DougieRichardson> Never really got into the wiki to be honest.
<little> I started to, but it's overwhelmingly huge, and it seems that any change is just tiny when compared to all the attention it needs.
<little> I will continue working on it, but I won't delude myself that I can make any kind of significant change in it. (:
<DougieRichardson> I like the idea of community documentation but worry that there seems to be a drive to turn it into a comprehensive help system - which is kind of the system helps job. The community wiki is for things like "howto turn Ubuntu into a toast printing machine"
<DougieRichardson> Atleast it was, that kind of stuff you don't see so much now.
<little> LOL - have you seen the page at TLDP on how to run a coffee maker with Linux?
<little> This is where it takes a keen eye to spot pages that duplicate system pages and then link to those instead, I guess.
<DougieRichardson> I guess so. Well its after 0200 sorry 0100 now so I'm off. TTFN
<bustacap> hello - are there any ubuntu-doc team members alive in here atm?
<bustacap> OK, I am announcing that I am cleaning up the poo-fight that the EncryptedFilesystem series of pages is in at the moment on the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki - if you guys don't like what I end up doing to it, drop me an email and change it back :)
<bustacap> also, a heads-up now to show that I have identified myself as well with the NickServ :)
<bustacap> ï»¿/msg ubottu naamanc
<bustacap> ï»¿/msg ubottu member
<technomensch> I had no idea the open source community could be so brutal and defensive
<jjesse> technomensch: what are you talking about?
<technomensch> my most recent email thread regarding the wiki team home page
<Rocket2DMn> people are defensive in the real world, too, it's not just the open source community
<Rocket2DMn> its very easy to step on people's toes
<technomensch> ::nod:: which is why this is good experience :)
<Rocket2DMn> indeed
<Atamira> to what technomensch ?
<Atamira> to see how many ppl you can piss off before xmas?
<Rocket2DMn> Just apologize, mention that it wasn't your intention, and be done with it.  You dragged that email out for way too long.
<technomensch> understood.
<technomensch> now, moving on :)
<Rocket2DMn> either my imap server sucks, or some other people's smtp servers suck, b/c ive been getting some emails delayed by as much as a day or more
<technomensch> seriously?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, like Scott's email just came in with in the last few hours, and its dated yesterday evening
<jjesse> i just saw scots email as well via gmail for some reason
<technomensch> did you get the one I sent out maybe an hour ago where I did include my apology?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah
<technomensch> oodd
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, its entirely possible its my aol imap, but ive never really had problems with it, it happens with bug updates sometimes, too i think
<Rocket2DMn> spam filter grabs some legit bug updates, too.  bummer
<technomensch> wait..you're using aol imap?
<Rocket2DMn> lol yes, its a very old email address which i send all my web traffic stuff to (which is what  Ubuntu started with, then just grew...)
<DougieRichardson> me too - scott's email arrived today, weird and confusing
<Rocket2DMn> ah so its not just me, good
<DougieRichardson> its been weird, i had no idea what the fuss was.
<technomensch> which fuss?
<DougieRichardson> well not fuss, but what scott had said. I only saw what you replied.
<technomensch> I decided to just give up.  I spoke with littlegirl, who to my knowledge, has become the kubuntu go-to person, about it
<DougieRichardson> people get really touchy about colour. its interesting from a psychological point of view as to why
<technomensch> ::nod::
<DougieRichardson> i often wondered if the choice of a colour scheme, chosen to represent "earth" and ubuntu's origin was sensible
<DougieRichardson> esp when its common for people to install blubuntu
<technomensch> is that what you call kubuntu?
<technomensch> anyway, I have to be going.
<technomensch> later all
<DougieRichardson> no, blubuntu is a package for ubuntu giving a blue theme
<nellery> it's a nice theme ;) I'm using it now
<DougieRichardson> lol
#ubuntu-doc 2009-10-19
<ZachK_> nigel_nb_, is new guys....want's to get into the team
<nigel_nb_> hello guys
 * starcraftman waves hello.
<ZachK_> nigel_nb_, is new starcraftman
<ZachK_> starcraftman, nigel_nb_ is also my paddy
<starcraftman> I noticed. I'm in lots of channels :)
<ZachK_> as am i
<starcraftman> Like the omnipresent eye of mordor, except less ominous I suppose. One day I'll have an army though, hehe.
<starcraftman> So, doc, what makes ya wanna get into it nigel_nb_ ?
 * nigel_nb_ waves hello to starcraftman 
<ZachK_> starcraftman, easy boy.....
<ZachK_> starcraftman, we still have a war to wage you an i
<starcraftman> ZachK_, I'd continue, but best to keep witty retorts and random conversations to bt area, doc is a lil more official :)
<ZachK_> starcraftman, haha..i know
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: I'd like to help, and I write blogs.. so docs would be easier
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, so.... my question? Long time interest in writing? What draws ya to doc? Not grading your answers or anything, just asking.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: I tried helping live, but no so sure
<starcraftman> hehe, I got a bit impatient there.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: Docs are something I'm sure I can write properly and neatly
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, I see, any experience writing on wiki's or documentation before? And also, have ya seen the wiki fg and doc team page?
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: not yet.. ZachK_ is taking me through them
<starcraftman> both are good resources for staying to date.
<ZachK_> starcraftman, i had him join the doc contributors group on lp btw
<starcraftman> ZachK_, good, but no need to rush to contribute. The docs ain't gonna be completed tomorrow. :)
<ZachK_> starcraftman, i know....just trying to get him half way there because i'll be starting my job in the next week or so...third shift... ten pm to seven am
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, The wiki guide explaining, markup, formatting and styles to use > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, Documentation Team home page covering wiki and system doc contribution. System docs are the help files come with linux.
<ZachK_> starcraftman, i just sent him https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<starcraftman> ZachK_, aye, that is good. That's just for beginners team though, we integrate into Doc team as a sub group in a sense. That's just our lil corner.
<ZachK_> yeah i know.....
<ZachK_> starcraftman, thanks for the help...really appreciate it
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: I did stumble through the formting for my page
<starcraftman> right, k. About it then, read up and feel free to dig right in.
<starcraftman> Also sign up mail list for doc team. Just to stay in formed at least
<nigel_nb_> i thought it was only for "members"?
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, Doc team is an open team, there aren't really formal members like beginners team. More of simply a seniority thing internal to team. People contribute openly what they want.
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, course has management, mdke is the lead.
<starcraftman> darn, now I pinged him >.>
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, Mail list for doc team > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: heheh
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_, don't be shy to ask questions, here or in beginners area, someone usually answers.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: sure
<mac_v> hi , is Bug 454013 due to upstream documentation in the package or due to Ubuntu documentation
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 454013 in humanity-icon-theme "Incorrect Icon Displayed in Empathy Account Manager" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/454013
#ubuntu-doc 2009-10-20
<nigel_nb_> hey ppl
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: you there?
<mdke> mac_v: the documentation concerned is the empathy documentation, so it comes from upstream. the cause of the bug is unclear though, it might be due to inappropriate icon changing
<mac_v> mdke: ok , thanks :)
<slacker_nl> hello, does anyone approve of merging https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NetworkConfigurationCommandLine/Automatic with https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NetworkConfigurationCommandLine
<nigel_nb_> hey
<nigel_nb_> can i get some help with a style?
<nigel_nb_> is there a standard format/template to present FAQs?
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: lo, I was sleeping
<starcraftman> hmmm left.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-10-21
<Saj0577> starcraftman: good email better then mine, i spend 6hours trying to write them lol
<starcraftman> Saj0577: hehe, gotta promote meeting. Time is good yes, had to move a bit later cuz I got english writing exam saturday at my uni.
<Saj0577> argh right i will let you off i suppose :P
<Saj0577> as long as its still saturday night not sunday morning im easyy.like a sunday morninggggg.
<starcraftman> Saj0577: new time is one hour later, so after your supper I guess.
<starcraftman> 2000 UTC or 1600 EDT
<Saj0577> sweeeetttt
<starcraftman> I remembered I had exam that ends at 230 that day, so I would have to reush for 3
<Saj0577> yeah and it wil be good to have a lil chill/down time when finish exam
<starcraftman> Saj0577: oh it ain't a hard one, english writing exam. Basically, I can't fail.
<starcraftman> I have 90 minutes to write two paragraphs sumarizing a science text and interpret data from a graph. almost idiot proof.
<Saj0577> sounds good to me :P/
<Saj0577> now you do realise now you said its idiot proof if you dont pass it.....
<starcraftman> Saj0577: lol
<starcraftman> Saj0577: I don't believe in jynxes and I'm not an idiot :)
<Saj0577> hehe
<Sunday>  :)
<ZachK_> hello
<drs305> Wiki graphics question for anyone around.
<drs305> I'm working on the GRUB2 page for help.ubuntu.com   I can't get the Configuring grub-pc graphic to display normally.  It's larger than the original and the text is poorer quality.
<drs305> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/drs305/Sandbox
<mdke> drs305: not sure if you've resolved it but it's looking ok to me
<mdke> drs305: that looks like a really comprehensive page, thanks for working on it
<drs305> mdke: The letters look just as clear as on your screen? On my screen they are not nearly as crisp.
<drs305> mdke: I'm just about done.
<drs305> :-)
<drs305> The display on the page is actually larger than what shows up on my regular screen, which may be why it's distorted to me.
<mdke> drs305: seems to look fine - might depend on screen resolution I guess
<mdke> not sure
<drs305> mdke: ok, thank you. it's been driving me nuts because I couldn't seem to fix it.
<mdke> drs305: I didn't do anything :)
<drs305> mdke: You confirmed it looked ok. If it looks good enough to you, I'm more than satisfied.  :-)
<drs305> So I was able to move back to proofing and cleaning it up before posting in the help section.
<mdke> drs305: looks good on my laptop too, running Windows and Firefox
<drs305> mdke: ty
#ubuntu-doc 2009-10-22
<trijntje> how active is the kubuntu documentation team?
<trijntje> hmm, not very by the looks of it :P
<slacker_nl> hello
<slacker_nl> can someone help me with merging two pages?
<slacker_nl> on the wiki
<slacker_nl> I want to move X/Y/Z to X/Y but X/Y already exists (i've incorporated the Y/X in X/Y/Z
#ubuntu-doc 2009-10-23
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: stil here ?
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: only just, gonna turn in soon, problem?
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: wanted to ask you if there is any other task
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: lol, no shortage!
<nigel_nb_> the ones on the task list are not what I'm comfortable with
<starcraftman> what ya mean?
<nigel_nb_> wine, network,
<nigel_nb_> but wine might be okay... I'm going through it
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: ahhh.
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: there's no shortage of pages tagged for work.
<nigel_nb_> oh
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: areas of focus are the content, style, needs expansion pages I suppose.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: on it
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: thanks..
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: click the "list pages with tag" to do so, you'll see a long list of pages need working on.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: saw that
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: thats a really really long list
<starcraftman> XD
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: not gonna be running out any time now eh? :)
<starcraftman> well, I Think i'm off for night. Have fun.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: ok.. g nite...
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: btw.. wanted to ask you
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: u in montreal?
<starcraftman> lol
<starcraftman> I R :)
<starcraftman> well, close enough, don't live on Island but do most stuff there.
<nigel_nb_> ah...
<starcraftman> why?
<nigel_nb_> just asked...
<starcraftman> oh ok
<starcraftman> well there ya go.
<nigel_nb_> interesting city
<nigel_nb_> so...
<starcraftman> Et je peux parler bien le francais quand il me faut :)
<starcraftman> yup, nice place.
<nigel_nb_> J'apprends aussi
<nigel_nb_> just starting out
<starcraftman> Hehe, good for ya. Nice to know different languages.
<nigel_nb_> haha.. talk to an Indian about languages
<nigel_nb_> our country has got 1500 mother tongues :D
<nigel_nb_> i hardly know 4
<starcraftman> lol, uh, Canada's only got 2 thankfully.
<nigel_nb_> yep i know
<starcraftman> And I know 2. 100% :)
<nigel_nb_> lucky
<starcraftman> hehe
<nigel_nb_> night.. I'm going too
<starcraftman> later
<starcraftman> mdke: when ya get a moment and your around, I'd like to talk to ya. I'll be around most of the day, so ping me when your available.
<trijntje> is the kde documentation team still active?
<starcraftman> trijntje: I dunno, prolly ought look into that given how I'm a big k user now.
<starcraftman> something I can help ya with?
<jjesse> the kde-docs team is active
<jjesse> found at #kde-docs
<jjesse> nixternal and myself maintain the kubuntu-docs package from a writing and building point of view
<starcraftman> jjesse: only two of ya?
<trijntje> starcraftman, well, i'm translating the systemdoc from kubuntu, but things are slowing down because it seems quite outdated
<jjesse> yes only two
<starcraftman> jjesse: hmmm, when I get a bit more time I'll look into it. I been meaning to get learned in docs anyhow.
<starcraftman> maybe the weekend.
<jjesse> coolio, i should be around so you can ping me
<trijntje> jjesse, I see, two is very few for a doc team
<jjesse> yes it is
<trijntje> jjesse, is launchpad the proper place to file bugs about the documentation?
<jjesse> yes
<trijntje> jjesse, ill keep doing that than, good luck with the documentation. You must be working your ass off with just two members
<jjesse> we try to keep up but it isn't always successfull, i know nixternal and i are trying to meet up in the lucid cylce to completely rebuild the docs so it would be nice to have more help
<starcraftman> jjesse: meet up in person? where ya located?
<jjesse> nixternal is in chicago, IL, i'm in Grand Rapids, MI and we are trying to meet halfway
<trijntje> the dutch translation team is supposed to check all documentation it translates, so that should turn up quite some of the current errors
<starcraftman> jjesse: ah I see. Hehe, northern Canadian here in the French Province.
<adiroiban> hm
<adiroiban> this channel is only for ubuntu-doc ?
<adiroiban> and not for kubuntu and xubuntu docs?
<trijntje> adiroiban, i believe kubuntu is in #kde-docs
<adiroiban> uhh
<adiroiban> :(
<adiroiban> it would be nice to have a common channel
<adiroiban> since they are not to active anyway
<adiroiban> and some issues are common to all docs
<trijntje> I think this counts as common, but i'm only a guest here
<starcraftman> trijntje: what ya mean guest? Everyones welcome long as they doing doc work.
<starcraftman> adiroiban: problem?
<adiroiban> starcraftman: I don't know if kubuntu-docs package was updated for this release
<trijntje> starcraftman, its more like i'm just here today and know little of documentation ;)
<jjesse> it was updated, nixternal should've published a new one, mdke could create a package for kubuntu-docs as nixternal is out for the next 2 months
<adiroiban> so everything is OK with kubuntu-docs ?
<starcraftman> trijntje: ah, well don't be shy to get involved, plenty of things to help out with. You too adiroiban. :)
<adiroiban> :)
<trijntje> starcraftman, maybe, if all translations are done ;)
<dpm> is anyone familiar with kubuntu-docs here? We expose the following documents for translation in Launchpad, but they are not in the package and I believe they are obsolete, just need to double-check:
<dpm> * preface
<dpm> * basic-concepts
<dpm> * desktopguide
<dpm> * programming
<dpm> Is nixternal the only maintainer? Who writes the documentation for Kubuntu?
<trijntje> dpm, jjesse is also from kubuntu-docs
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: are you there? just a doubt
<jjesse> i wirte the docs don't build them
<jjesse> i think desktopguide and programming are a part of ubuntu-docs? but dont know for sure
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: I R
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: every time I edit a wiki, am I supposed to say that on the tasks page ?
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: you mean this one? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Development
<nigel_nb_> yep
<nigel_nb_> exactly that one starcraftman
<starcraftman> as ya like. I mean if its a big page like the swap faq or when I did drive imaging. I imagine. If ya just fixing a few typos on a page no. Generally it's for pages that'll take ya a week or so to do, tells other members what ya up to and not to edit your page unless ya say so.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: okay. I got some time tonight.  Thought of getting some wiki work done
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: I appreciate your enthusiasm :)
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: :)
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: I told ya about doc meeting right this weekend for the fg?
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: your on the list right?
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: no
<starcraftman> New beginners mail list I mean.
<nigel_nb_> wait.. where do I join that?
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: there are so many lists I'm on that its confusing nw
<starcraftman> lol, not surprising.
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-beginners
<starcraftman> Voila.
<starcraftman> Doc team one is separate, ya should be on that one too. This one just for BT business.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: where is this list posted? I do not see a link to this list anywhere
<starcraftman> well doc mailing list posted on our wiki fg page. I guess ought to edit in the new mail list to join us page.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: this is new?
<nigel_nb_> no wonder I didn't know about it earlier
<starcraftman> Indeed, an open mailing list.
<nigel_nb_> how do u guys keep track of different time zones?
<nigel_nb_> do u have a program or just calculate in your head?
<starcraftman> Last one was thru lp, required ya to be a member. Wasn't so good, no paddys were allowed.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: oh
<starcraftman> Uh, I hope for the best that my brain works it nigel_nb_ :) There are many convertors if your wondering.
<nigel_nb_> hunting for one now star
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: I can attend this one rite?
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: aw.. bad timing... Its at 1:40 AM... I'd be at work
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: attend what one?
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: the meeting
<starcraftman> oh sure, your allowed.
<starcraftman> Anyone allowed long as they have business at meeting or are part of fg team.
<nigel_nb_> ah
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: these are not on the fridge?
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: nope, doc team doesn't really meet that often, so we don't. I'll send another note to new mail list later to remind folks again.
<starcraftman> and by doc team, I mean wiki fg
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: oh ok.  Its a bit confusing coz there is the wiki fg and "the doc team" and on the wiki, its a bit confusing for new comers like me
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: INdeed, I'm rewriting the wiki fg homepage, it's not the clearest thing.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: we did get hit with a cleanup ;)
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: aye, wanna see my draft page? I'd like comments.
<nigel_nb_> sure
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox/Secret
<starcraftman> I think it's more orderly, all comments welcome.
<nigel_nb_> checkign
<nigel_nb_> nicely organized
<nigel_nb_> i was just reading last team meeting
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: its very good
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: I suggest you replace the old page as soon as possible
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: will do, I not the fastest person, will have it finished by meeting at latest so everyone can see it.
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: I hope it cleared up difference in teams yes?
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: yes
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: and the pages to visit are more clear
<nigel_nb_> but there is one thing i noticed all over
<nigel_nb_> I dont know if its my problem or something to with the wiki as such
<nigel_nb_> most often we refer the user to another link and honestly, (s)he gets lost
<nigel_nb_> is it possible to have just ONE page, probably a really big page for a new user?
<nigel_nb_> it helps to stay in focus, otherwise a new user suddenly gets overwhelmed.. I was really overwhelmed
<nigel_nb_> thats my 2 bits.. I dont know its possible
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: one really big page for the wiki fg home? egad man, have ya seen the compendium of text that is the writing/style/wiki/documentation team collection. The page would break infinity :p
<nigel_nb_> but right now, there are so many pages u want us to visit that
<nigel_nb_> if there is no one on IRC to guide, we get lost
<nigel_nb_> just coz ZachK_ and you were there on IRC.. I managed to find my way tht day
<starcraftman> That's just the nature of wikis gotta have subdivided content and link. One reason books are good, only one way to read em, front to back.
<nigel_nb_> even that would be great
<nigel_nb_> what I mean is something that is logically connecting
<nigel_nb_> some ebook?
<nigel_nb_> for the entire FG?
<starcraftman> lol
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: I think that'd be an impossible task. Theres too much content and it's always changing and evolving.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: I just realized thta
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: we'd need another FG to maintain that :D
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: just have to go one page at a time and read carefully. I try to stay on the page long as I can and when needed link off. Always keep parent wiki page open to go back to.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: thats what am doing now
<nigel_nb_> but its easy for someone new to get lost
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: indeed, and that's what we here for. Don't forget about sandbox page, can always experiment.
<nigel_nb_> thats what I'm thinkin about.. now about me exactly.. about someone who comes when no one IRC is there to help
<nigel_nb_> * not about me exactly * correction
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: well, I make it pretty clear on new page where to see on IRC for questions. Most people hang out here, I can't handle all eventualities.
<nigel_nb_> true starcraftman
<nigel_nb_> probably we'll have to leave it that way to find people who can navigate through the jungle lol :D
<starcraftman> nigel_nb_: hmmm, when ya put it that way, like an entry test just reading all the right documentation and making it to IRC.
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: yep
<nigel_nb_> starcraftman: the right channel too
<trijntje> what does FG stands for?
<nigel_nb_> Focus Group trijntje
<trijntje> oh dear..
<starcraftman> trijntje: nothing you need worry about, Doc Team isn't related. Ya know where main documentation pages are yes?
<trijntje> starcraftman, not really I'm afraid :P
<starcraftman> trijntje: lmao, page ain't gonna eat ya :p
<starcraftman> trijntje: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mdke> adiroiban: I don't think translations have been imported for kubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> yep
<mdke> dpm-afk: ^
<adiroiban> I'm building them now
<mdke> ah, cool
<adiroiban> in debian/rules all rules for copying the translations were commented
<mdke> I haven't looked at the packaging for kubuntu-docs for several releases, I doubt it is similar to ubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> is not similar
<adiroiban> :(
<adiroiban> also Kubuntu help Center is using HTML files
<adiroiban> not XML
<adiroiban> but maybe for the next release we can make them look more similar
<mdke> yes, khelpcenter doesn't read xml afaik
<adiroiban> nope
<mdke> it would be awesome for them to get a bit closer together, but I think that we will need the respective upstreams to work together a bit
<adiroiban> this is the kubuntu-docs for jaunty http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/all/kubuntu-docs/filelist
<adiroiban> I  think the only major diference is that kubuntu-docs xml files are stored in docs/ folder
<adiroiban> rather than the root folder
<mdke> yes, I think that we transitioned into the root folder and kubuntu-docs didn't follow...
<adiroiban> so maybe they will also move those files in the next release
<adiroiban> they also have libs and scripts folders
<mdke> it could do with a bit of work, definitely
<adiroiban> and basicaly similar xsl files
<adiroiban> I talked with jjesse and he was ok
<adiroiban> mdke: still up and runnig ? :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-10-24
<starcraftman> folks Beginners team wiki FG meeting in a few minutes.
<lukjad007> Hi
<PabloRubianes> hello
<jjesse> hello
<Rocket2DMn> yo
<duanedesign> better, not so many people in #ubuntu-docs
<duanedesign> :p
<starcraftman> Hey guys, hmmm, maybe wait a few more minutes for any late comers. I shall much on some fresh oatmeal cookies meanwhile.
<jjesse> ah i always get confused on the difference between #kde-docs and #ubuntu-doc :)
<Rocket2DMn> lol yeah
<drs305> I only came for the cake!
<jjesse> theres cake?
<starcraftman> drs305: what? Who said anything about cake?
<duanedesign> Kashi makes a good oatmeal raisin cookie
<drs305> starcraftman: You did, yesterday. Check the logs!
<Rocket2DMn> i heard there would be an open bar
<duanedesign> \o/
 * drs305 Admits it might have been only virtual cake ...
<starcraftman> drs305: Oh right. Lemme just go fetch it.
<PabloRubianes> drs305: any cake is good!
<Rocket2DMn> ok starcraftman , let's do this
<Rocket2DMn> want me to begin starcraftman ?
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Sure thing. Your up first on agenda. We go by list.
<Rocket2DMn> Ok guys, so we finished the Summer of Documentation a few weeks ago, you can see the results here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki/SoD2009
<Rocket2DMn> Thank you all for your efforts and excellent work!
<starcraftman> hear hear, was a good productive effort :).
<Rocket2DMn> of course, that doesn't mean that we stop doing work, which leads to the next agenda item: Fall/Winter Activities
<Rocket2DMn> As of right now there is nothing we have organized, but wiki work will continue, and anybody interested in system documentation can talk to me or any doc-team member for that matter
<Rocket2DMn> Karmic is due out in a few days, so the Wiki will have a bunch of stuff that needs to be updated
<Rocket2DMn> if you have any pages that you "maintain", have a look at them soon once you have Karmic up and running and see if anything needs to be changed
<lukjad007> o/
<Rocket2DMn> go for it lukjad007
<lukjad007> If we are not immediately upgrading to karmic, what should we do in the meantime?
<starcraftman> lukjad007: virtualbox? Clean up tags? Orphan pages? Lots of things :)
<Rocket2DMn> well lukjad007 , nobody owns wiki pages, you don't have ultimate responsibility for them since it's a community effort
<Rocket2DMn> You can install in a VM, or ask somebody to review the page for you to see if anythin actually has changed
<lukjad007> starcraftman Good points, just asking for suggestions.
<Rocket2DMn> otherwise, just wait and have a look after you do upgrade, in that time, perhaps somebody else will step forward and update the page
<drs305> o/
<Rocket2DMn> oterhwise, yes, there are other tasks :)
<Rocket2DMn> go ahead drs305
<drs305> Graphics w/ backgrounds still use LTS (Hardy)?
<Rocket2DMn> drs305, if screenshots already exist on pages and are still applicable, then you can keep the old ones.  If things have changed, then new screenshots are needed
<Rocket2DMn> that may require pages to be refactored to support older and newer versions
<Rocket2DMn> if you are doing fresh screenshots, use the latest release
<drs305> Ok, but I'm NOT using any with that yellow background!
<drs305> Ok.
<Rocket2DMn> haha, drs305 if the material is the same between Hardy and Karmic, you can use Hardy :)
<drs305> ty
<starcraftman> drs305: or just take screenshots limited to the window of the program, avoids background.
<Rocket2DMn> I think the most important thing is that you use the default theme, the background image isn't as important
<drs305> That's what I normally do starcraftman
<starcraftman> drs305: roger, just noting.
<Rocket2DMn> Any other questions?
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, next agenda item is Other doc team activities
<Rocket2DMn> I don't think anything out of the ordinary is going on
<Rocket2DMn> You can always see Doc Team wiki tasks here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
<duanedesign> we are still using https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Development ?
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, yeah, for internal usage.  At some point I need to put something together for the whole doc team to use, at mdke's request
<Rocket2DMn> at that time we'll migrate
<Rocket2DMn> System documentation also has tasks here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Sounds good. Still gonna be a system based on the wiki though?
<Rocket2DMn> so if anybody is interested in writing material from scratch, there are some options there
<Rocket2DMn> starcraftman, yes
<starcraftman> I'd just like to note, these links all listed under the Current Tasks section of the homepage :)
<Rocket2DMn> starcraftman, in fact, it may be a good idea to just give a link to the doc team list so we don't duplicate material
<lukjad007> afk, brb.
<Rocket2DMn> it would help us integrate even better with the doc team
<Rocket2DMn> If anybody has suggestions or ideas for tasks or improvements in any way, please don't hesitate to bring them forward to the doc team directly
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Sure thing. If ya need a hand on new track system, long as I'm around I'll try and help.
<Rocket2DMn> any questions about tasks?
<Rocket2DMn> sure thing starcraftman
<duanedesign> what is this doc team list?
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, the doc team mailing list is here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<starcraftman> duanedesign: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki#Joining%20the%20Teams
<Rocket2DMn> that is their primary form of communication since IRC isn't as popular as it is with the BT
<starcraftman> Ah, rats, Rocket2DMn by 5 seconds.
<duanedesign> oh ok the ,ailing list
<duanedesign> *mailing
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, well then my final announcement today is this: I am stepping down from the lead position in the Wiki FG and handing over leadership to starcraftman .  It's been a year and a half since we formed the FG, and I'd like to give somebody else a chance, as well as free up some time for myself
 * starcraftman dons requisite crown ready to become a tyrant.
<Rocket2DMn> A handful of Wiki FG members spoke a couple of weeks ago and everybody supported him for leadership
<Rocket2DMn> I believe he is looking for a co-lead as well, that is further down on the agenda
<drs305> All hail the RocketMan! Well done!
<Rocket2DMn> I'll still be around of course :)
<Rocket2DMn> thanks drs305 , i can't believe it's been as long as it has
 * PabloRubianes claps!!
<Rocket2DMn> thank you thank you, i accept donations via check or paypal
<Rocket2DMn> ;)
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: ya deserve the break, former boss. Take it easy and relax to some DT :)
<duanedesign> I have been reADINg the doc team mailing list rather religiously lately interested in any doc team activities at UDS
<drs305> Seriously.  Great job putting the team together and all the work you did.
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, are you going to UDS?
<drs305> Now The king is dead. Long live the king. All hail starcraftman
<duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: That is the plan
<duanedesign> :)
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, very cool dude, there was an email thread about UDS which I think you saw.  Pics or it didn't happen!
<starcraftman> drs305: You have a bright future. :)
<drs305> It's NEVER too early to suck up.
<Rocket2DMn> lol ok guys, let's keep moving so we don't drag this out
<Rocket2DMn> Saj0577, are you here?
<starcraftman> duanedesign: I wish I could go, they need to hold one near Montreal again.
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: nope, I was told PabloRubianes filling in for edu.
<PabloRubianes> Saj0577 won't be here... some problems with a friend... he was taking him to hospital...
<duanedesign> I am lucky it is in Dallas 4 hours from me
<starcraftman> duanedesign: rubbing it in eh? You going far, not so much...
<Rocket2DMn> ok PabloRubianes , then the floor is yours, enlighten us as to what is happening with edu FG and it's effec ton the Wiki FG
<duanedesign> I am working on a wiki page(s) for Launchpad. This is a project with me and Pablo right now
<duanedesign> sorry go ahead PabloRubianes
<PabloRubianes> duanedesign just tell everything ;-)
<duanedesign> :x
<PabloRubianes> now we are working on google docs... and we are goona use that material for launchpad wiki page, tutorials for edu FG, and for the launchpad FG
<PabloRubianes> I imagine that Saj0577 was trying to find more people to help with the job
<duanedesign> yes I just did the 'getting started' section and Bodhi is working on a packaging blog post which i am hoping to use :)
<PabloRubianes> because this topic could be a inter FG work
<duanedesign> But Launchpad is a fairly complex with a lot of tools. The result will be used between the Ubuntu wiki and the Education FG
<Rocket2DMn> Don't forget to integrate with existing resources when working on any kind of documentation.
<starcraftman> PabloRubianes: hmmm, didn't he want to talk about getting mentors from the FG to follow people after they pass through new Wiki course he was planning? I could be wrong, that's what told me I think.
<duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: good point. Their is a lot already donee on the Launchpad wiki
<duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: in a case like that is it better, in your opinion, to link to LP or duplicate the documentation w/ attribution
<PabloRubianes> starcraftman: i don't know that Saj0577 ask me in a rush to be here...
<PabloRubianes> starcraftman: he told me you could explain...
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, better to link rather than to duplicate material.  That means if the original documentaiton changes, you don' thave to keep up
<starcraftman> PabloRubianes: ah, hmmm, lemme get my logs then, think he explained it quite well on em.
<Rocket2DMn> if the exisitng documentation is incorrect, you should alert the maintainer
<Rocket2DMn> if it's a wiki page that is wrong, you can update it yourself
<duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: good point. Launchpad does have a Doc Team :)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, you can file bugs against LP itself
<duanedesign> Also Launchpad has a few screencasts up on youtube
<duanedesign> I thought these were helpfull as I like screencasts.ubuntu.comm
<duanedesign> does antone know the status of the screencast team
<duanedesign> anyone*
<duanedesign> I thought at one point it was part of the doc team
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, you should ping pleia2 , she might know
<duanedesign> kk
<starcraft-ntbk> PabloRubianes: hurrah, I have the logs.
<starcraft-ntbk> lp discussion done?
<PabloRubianes> that's great
<starcraft-ntbk> well from silence, I assume convo done, so back on topic.
<starcraft-ntbk> Saj0577's proposal > http://pastebin.com/m521f705a
<starcraft-ntbk> Not too much reading.
 * starcraftman waits for people to read and turns futurama on.
<Rocket2DMn> It sounds like not much is needed from our end in this.
<Rocket2DMn> If the Edu FG ends up with users who are interested in documentation, they get sent our way
<Rocket2DMn> we're more or less a back door direct to the ubuntu doc team
<Rocket2DMn> We are happy to help people learn how to write documentation
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: aye, from my understand intention was to set up some sort of course they give to new prospects and then we can look over em. Saves us some question answering I suppose.
<Rocket2DMn> starcraft-ntbk, I think your rewrite of the Wiki FG page handles that pretty well, there is a section specifically for new users which includes links to getting started with the wiki
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: hehe, thanks. I tried to make it simple. I'm with ya on your points, I don't mind answering questions, and if others wanna answer too, all the better :).
<Rocket2DMn> We have found in the past that having a prolonged mentor/mentee system doesn't work that well in a distributed development environment - it is really up to the new person to ask questions and have others review their work
<Rocket2DMn> that means that the user needs to be active in seeking advice and getting involved.  However, that's not to say that providing valuable information up front is not important.  One of the biggest problems some users have is knowing WHERE to get help/support
<Rocket2DMn> It sounds like the Edu FG's goal is to make it easier for people to get involved in different areas by knowing where the knowledge base is
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: indeed, I guess so. In any event, what Saj0577 is asking isn't too different from way we operate now with new folks I suppose so no problem.
<starcraftman> Maybe once he flushes it out a bit more we'll get better idea.
<starcraftman> I'm not privy to all his ideas, so maybe he had more than what was in my logs.
<Rocket2DMn> starcraft-ntbk, it sounds like they act as traffic cops and a GPS - they can direct users in where to go in order to get involved, and where to get the initial information from
<Rocket2DMn> perhaps they also help those seeking to contribute in finding what they are actually interested in doing
<Rocket2DMn> in any case, i think we need more information, so let's move on and we can discuss it more later when Saj0577 gets back
<starcraftman> indeed, before we move on, we still got other folks right? Us two been only ones talking!
 * starcraftman pokes drs305 and nhasian who been particularly quiet.
<drs305> I'm reading, but no inputs.
<Rocket2DMn> lukjad007, duanedesign , you still with us, too?
<duanedesign> My understanding of the Edu FG was that it was to handle..
<starcraftman> Well you guys say something once and a while, just so we know ya there. :)
<duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning    How to Develop    How to spread
<lukjad007> yes
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, i think that is part of what they were doing, but they are trying to let that be a separate project now
<Rocket2DMn> let's move on with our agenda
<duanedesign> ohhhh,ok
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: roger, ok, all mine.
<starcraftman> Well first thing is new page as was already mentioned and linky > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<starcraftman> Just wanted some feedback on new layout, and people might wanna look over it again much improved organization wise. :)
<drs305> I think I've already said I like it.  ... repeats himself.
<drs305> Very nice look.
<Rocket2DMn> I think it looks good, definitely more user friendly than it was before
<starcraftman> K, well moving on. I was wanting to be sure everyones on the new BT mail list, uptake was a little slow (per nhandlers numbers), and I was thinking of maybe having a lil informal newletter once in a while.
<starcraftman> Newletter go out by email to bounce off our bt list and it'd maybe detail certain projects to work on for a period, stuff folks could pick up. Just a thought, we don't seem to use the bt list so often.
<Rocket2DMn> I like that idea, it's a good way to keep an open dialog between meetings (which only happen a few times a year)
<duanedesign> starcraftman: good idea. I have implemented a newsletter awhile back with OKlahoma LoCo and it helps with momentum, keeping people excited about projects and they are informative
<ZachK_> hello?
<starcraftman> duanedesign: thanks. I'll look into it, that was about what I hoped. Probably not too much, just to keep people working on pages. Maybe have some special weeks where we do one task or other. Also, not too often, maybe every 2nd week or 3rd, depending how much going on.
<ZachK_> hi team
<Rocket2DMn> hey ZachK_ , we're finishing up a Wiki FG meeting - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<starcraftman> Well, I guess that's about it for that topic, I'll either write it up or co-lead which leads to last topic!
<duanedesign> starcraftman: just an idea we might think about all the FG pitching in on one every so often.
<ZachK_> Rocket2DMn, starcraftman just linked me the pages
<starcraftman> duanedesign: one page?
<duanedesign> starcraftman: i would hate for it to get to long and discourage people from reading it is the major drawback. I guess that would depend on the amount of info thought necessary by each group
<ZachK_> Rocket2DMn, you're stepping down?!?!!?
<duanedesign> and not every group would have something to contribute every few weeks
<Rocket2DMn> ZachK_, yes
<duanedesign> starcraftman: I always like reading the team reports from all the different teams to see what is going on
<duanedesign> something like that from the FG would be neat
<starcraftman> duanedesign: ahhhh, I see, a unified newsletter ya mean. I gotcha, sounds good, and your right, could be a sort of rolling thing since not everyone has something going on every week.
<Rocket2DMn> ok, well let's start with an email for ourselves, and if other FGs want to try something similar, that is fine.  Discussion about implementing a unified email between FGs is material for a BT meeting discussion
<starcraftman> Will have to bring it up at our regular team meeting on 4TH.
<Rocket2DMn> ^5 starcraftman , we're on the same page
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Roger, just what I was saying. An intriguing idea. I Shall put it on docket.
<starcraftman> So moving to last topic!
 * ZachK_ claps
<starcraftman> I'm thinking on a co-lead and I want to know who would be interested in assisting with whatever (probably most often when I'm not available or other tasks to assist). Nothing too glorious. So volunteers?
<Rocket2DMn> i would nominate drs305 and lukjad007 as candidates
 * ZachK_ volunteers of course
<lukjad007> Heehee
<drs305> Just got called to work. lukjad007 would be my recommendation. Talk to you all later. Bye.
<lukjad007> Later drs305
<ZachK_> he left pretty fast
<starcraftman> and that was a quick departure.
<Rocket2DMn> work on a saturday, what a pity
<lukjad007> Yeahh
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Worse than exams on Saturday!
<ZachK_> haha
<starcraftman> lukjad007: So you'd be interested? I put ya and zack down for consideration.
<ZachK_> So.......
<lukjad007> I would be interested, yes
<starcraftman> duanedesign: No thoughts?
<ZachK_> nice
<duanedesign> lol
<ZachK_> be back gents...gotta eat my chicken/bacon/and ranch sandwhich
<duanedesign> I think lukjad007 has shown a definite amount of dedication over time making hima good candidate
<duanedesign> ZachK_: me hungry too
<starcraftman> ZachK_: later, enjoy.
<ZachK_> k
<ZachK_> starcraftman, i expect to hear results? when i get back
<starcraftman> Well I guess I only got two candidates atm, unless maybe I pull someone unexpected out of hat. I shall deliberate!
 * ZachK_ crosses fingers
<starcraftman> Shouldn't be too long, I guess that's end of meeting unless anyone have any last minute items?
<ZachK_> ok i'm on lunch
<starcraftman> K, well I guess /endmeeting
<starcraftman> Thanks a bunch folks for showing up.
<Rocket2DMn> cool
<starcraftman> Oh and the cake I promised > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI
<starcraftman> :D
<duanedesign> nice
<starcraftman> Too bad drs left before.
 * lukjad007 secretly bribes starcraftman 
<starcraftman> lukjad007: lol
<starcraftman> I'll have ya know I have high standads lukjad007.
<Rocket2DMn> that was a long meeting
<starcraftman> i.e. better be a good bribe!
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: indeed, 70 minutes.
<duanedesign> :) good meeting all
<lukjad007> :D
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: now, how do we make the log? I can't just copy this all right? Some means of formatting right?
<Rocket2DMn> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<Rocket2DMn> files get updated every hour, so you will need to wait a bit
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: ah right, thanks, that's going in bookmarks.
<Rocket2DMn> it's not the end of the world if sometimes oy have to use logs straight from your irc client
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: k.
<ZachK_> so...
<ZachK_> who's the co-lead?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-10-25
<lukjad007> Anyone here know how to make a picture in the wiki grow and shrink with the page?
<j1mc> lukjad007: i'm not sure if that's possible.  if it is possible, you'd have to use an svg as the graphic (no jpg or png)
<lukjad007> j1mc Okay, I'll just resize it manually then
<lukjad007> Someone posted a screenshot that was too big
<j1mc> lukjad007: sounds good.
<lukjad007> Does anyone see anything inherently wrong in this sentence:
<lukjad007> Since you will be running several commands as root it is suggested that for simplicity's sake you first run ''sudo -i'' to get a root shell and run each command without using the ''sudo'' prefix on each of them.
<adiroiban> mdke: do you know what should be done so that khelpcenter could load the translated kubuntu-docs files?
<Rocket2DMn> we have a lot of bugs open for openldap documentation
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn, hi what's up
#ubuntu-doc 2010-10-25
<geekosopher> good evening everyone!
#ubuntu-doc 2010-10-26
<j1mc> hi all
<j1mc> anyone around?
<j1mc> hi all - basically, i'm thinking that the move to unity makes it pretty pointless to ship most of the gnome user guide / gnome help
<j1mc> the app help can stay, of course.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-10-27
<Naeddyr> hello, I would like to make a change in a wiki-article, and I'm wondering on whose toes I should stomp on?
<Naeddyr> should I*
<Naeddyr> eh, i'll just leave a message.
<Naeddyr> Based on this forum trouble-shooting thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1607134 I would like to change the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AiptekTablet/ so that instead of suggesting that the user creates a usr/share/X11/xorg-conf.d/10-aiptek.conf file, the conf file be named 50-aiptek.conf instead. i'm not sure whether i should make the change, though, because, for all I know (though it seems implausible), it
<Naeddyr>  might break something on someone's computer. should I just add an alternative suggestion?
<Naeddyr> there, alternative suggestion added. :)
<Naeddyr> have a good night!
#ubuntu-doc 2010-10-29
<j1mc> hi all
#ubuntu-doc 2010-10-30
<Judax> Greets
#ubuntu-doc 2010-10-31
<geekosopher> good morning all!
<Atamira> evening
<geekosopher> Atamira: :) hi... good evening then
<Atamira> :)
<lea123> Just needed an opinion - Shouldn't the download button always give the stablest version of Ubuntu to download ? There are a lot of newbies wanting to try Ubuntu , I just realised that 10.10 isn't the stablest version and its 10.04.  Should the download page caution all these nuances ?
<geekosopher> lea123: 'stablest' is a subjective term... some might find 8.04 to be the most stable. The fact is that 10.10 is the latest stable release while 8.04 and 10.04 are LTS and 9.10 still being supported
<lea123> geekosopher : Why does it say 10.10 is a beta version then ? http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/maverick/beta
<Atamira> lea123, its not beta anymore
<Atamira> http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download
<Atamira> it was beta till it was released
<benjaoming> hey everybody! i have a question about the Ubuntu wikis: Has anybody heard about anyone doing static snapshots of the wiki data (help/community etc) ?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-10-26
<j1mc> jbicha: are you going to UDS?
<jbicha> j1mc: yes
<j1mc> cool - i hope it goes well.
<jbicha> I wasn't aware of any other docs people going so I didn't propose any topics
<j1mc> ah, ok
<YoBoY> hi
<YoBoY> I'm trying (again) to build the html system doc in my language, and don't where is the command to translate de .pages files. someone can give me a hint on that ?
<jbicha> YoBoY: I'd try cd html, edit the LN= line in the Makefile and run make
<YoBoY> Yes, i have already done that. But i Just saw Ã  Ã©trange thing, lot of others languages have their .pages translated... can you try with the fr?
<jbicha> YoBoY: French isn't enabled in ubuntu-help/Makefile.am HELP_LINGUAS you can try activating it before you build
<jbicha> mdke: did you check to see if any more languages should be built for ubuntu-docs?
<jbicha> YoBoY: I believe some languages were incomplete and there was a build problem with enabling too many languages anyway
<YoBoY> jbicha: thanks, it was this Makefile.am HELP_LINGUAS. I can now build my "translated" (T_T) online system documentation. (lot of work for the translators yet)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-10-27
<mdke> YoBoY: I didn't include french in the upload yesterday because there are hardly any translations in launchpad
<YoBoY> mdke: I can understand, you are right there is lot of work to do on it.
<mdke> jbicha: yes, I added languages which had translations of a certain level
<mdke> jbicha: for example the help is now incredibly good if you speak Asturian
<mdke> jbicha: but not if you speak French
#ubuntu-doc 2011-10-28
<FeliXbEk> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2011-10-30
<semitones> hello! i'm looking for a page on wiki.ubuntu.com that i can't seem to find -- a list of hardware vendors that come with ubuntu
<semitones> i know the big two, but there was another vendor that had laptops like the "Be" and the "Do" that looked pretty interesting, which I can't remember
<mdke> semitones: you will probably be interested in http://friendly.ubuntu.com/
<semitones> mdke: unfortunately friendly doens't have a list of hardware vendors with ubuntu preinstalled
<mdke> semitones: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuPre-installed ?
<semitones> Thank you :D :D -- why couldn't I find it by searching (which keywords or method did you use?)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, did you mean to commit the build directory of html in the natty branch?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: or rather, no
<mdke> damn
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> semitones: "ubuntu preinstall" on google
<semitones> ah thanks
<DarkwingUDS> mdke: Did we want to do something for Ubuntu Docs at UDS?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-10-23
<alo21> hi all... can I create a personal subpage with a name like 'Packaging'?
<alo21> head_victim: hi... can I ask you?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-10-24
<head_victim> Surely can but you've gone....
#ubuntu-doc 2013-10-21
<eagles0513875> hey all :)
<pleia2> meeting over in #ubuntu-meeting in 18 minutes
<godbyk> We're just starting an ubuntu-docs meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now.
<eagles0513875_> hey bkerensa  and pleia2
<bkerensa> hello
<eagles0513875_> bkerensa: is there an official doc's team?
<bkerensa> yes
<godbyk> eagles0513875: You can join the ubuntu-doc-contributors team: <https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors>
<eagles0513875_> ok perfect :)
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: ^ you might be interested in that link too
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: that's for folks who control the release process, not regular contributors
<pleia2> regular contributors join subteams
<eagles0513875_> talk about confusing
<pleia2> it is
<bkerensa> ttyl folks :)
<pleia2> I didn't bother joining anything :)
<pleia2> team structure is a discussion that should be had, but it's really not on my priority list since it's not blocking anything right now
<godbyk> pleia2: Agreed.
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: i think it coudl potentially cause issues or slow down the work flow
<godbyk> Having all these subteams is quite confusing, but not something that we can fix easily at the moment.
<godbyk> Let's wait to get 14.04 under our belts and then we can explore restructuring. :)
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: yeah, if it does slow down the workflow it will become more of a priority (it hasn't yet)
<pleia2> godbyk: +1
<godbyk> eagles0513875: For the system documentation (which is different from the community wiki documentation), there are only a handful of people who can actually commit code to the bzr repository.
<godbyk> eagles0513875: Everyone else needs to email patches, file bug reports, or submit merge proposals for review.
<eagles0513875_> that is an issue of having two different sets of documentation
<eagles0513875_> tbh one woudl be better and that is the official and have it where people can post comments or questions about the documentation
<eagles0513875_> such as stack exchange
<pleia2> we have askubuntu.com on stack exchange
<pleia2> reactive documentation :)
<eagles0513875_> i think official documentation shoudl go to a format like that
<eagles0513875_> that is the top notch way to do things
<pleia2> unless you don't have internet access
<godbyk> pleia2: Then you hope you have a printed copy of the Ubuntu manual handy. ;-)
<pleia2> godbyk: as I tend to!
<eagles0513875_> you woudl still have the pdf version
<pleia2> of ask ubuntu? :)
<eagles0513875_> no of the official documentation
<eagles0513875_> then people with questions about it can post on ask
<pleia2> oh, you're saying the wiki should be replaced with askubuntu?
<pleia2> not the official docs?
<eagles0513875_> no no
<eagles0513875_> if people dont have an internet connection they can still download the pdf's of official docs and post questions on the page of the official doc they have a question on
<eagles0513875_> even post if they found an issue with something work arounds etc and all the posts are visible to everyone work arounds and all
<eagles0513875_> saves people time
<eagles0513875_> and money so to speka they just have to read through the comments
<godbyk> Ideally, the official docs would cover most of the needs of the Ubuntu users.
<godbyk> Then the community wiki docs would just fill in the gaps a bit.
<eagles0513875_> why  not fill in the gaps with questions posted below the official documentation and answers
<godbyk> eagles0513875: Well, it would be better to take the questions and update the documentation to answer them.
<eagles0513875_> what w eneed to do seeing the limited man power is consolidate
<godbyk> So, for example, we should explore the top questions on AskUbuntu and the top wiki pages to ensure that the official docs address thise issues.
<godbyk> those issues, rather.
<eagles0513875_> agreed but why create more work
<eagles0513875_> why not simplify things
<eagles0513875_> cut out a step so to speak
<godbyk> You mean just have people modify the docs directly?  (Just like the community wiki works currently?)
<eagles0513875_> godbyk: no. comment below them and people respond there and point out errors if any etc there
<eagles0513875_> my idea is based off stack exchange but responses below the official documentation pages.
<godbyk> Then if we updated the documentation to remove the error, we would need to delete the comment/question pertaining to it, right?
<eagles0513875_> correct. but at least its on the same page
<eagles0513875_> you dont need to open another page in a new tab
<godbyk> Kind of like this: <http://us3.php.net/preg_match>?
<godbyk> Where you have official documentation at the top and comments below it?
<eagles0513875_> exactly
<godbyk> My experience with that sort of system is that often many of the comments are outdated or incorrect. So someone has to moderate that somehow.
<godbyk> And at the moment, the docs team doesn't have the manpower to do that.
<eagles0513875_> neither do we have the power to manage god knows how many resources either
<godbyk> It may be something we can explore in the future though.
<eagles0513875_> godbyk: sry for talking up a storm im so full of ideas
<godbyk> That's true. That's why we have a small set of official documentation and leave the community wiki as a 'wild west' area where almost anything goes.
<godbyk> eagles0513875: No problem! I'm glad to see you're excited about helping out the documentation teams!
<eagles0513875_> and last week and week before i was going through hell to complete a multiple domain mail setup postfix + dovecot + mysql for virtual users and domains turns out that in the community docs there was no mention of postfix-mysql package and dovecot-mysql package
<eagles0513875_> took me a damn week to figure out those are what were causing this server not to work right
<godbyk> Yeah, that can be a problem.
<eagles0513875_> i cna contribute some new documentation too on the front of dovecot + postfix multiple domain setup
<godbyk> Oftentimes, a great wiki page is written and then abandoned. No one comes along to update it for newer versions of Ubuntu.
<eagles0513875_> :) can also contribute some other documentation I have up on my site as well which i need to get back online
<eagles0513875_> god im in love with alfresco the little that i tested out with it
<godbyk> To contribute directly on that topic, you can (1) edit the wiki pages yourself to fix the errors, and (2) file bugs and help update the server guide.
<eagles0513875_> well ironically postfix + dovecot on the commuinty site works still but lots of warnings in the logs
<godbyk> We're a bit stuck in our ways with the system documentation for the time being as we're riding on GNOME's coattails there.
<eagles0513875_> we shouldnt
<eagles0513875_> why should the community docs for server ride on the tail end of gnome
<eagles0513875_>  for me my focus would be server side documentation on the community side of thigns
<godbyk> Since Ubuntu uses so much GNOME software, we can just copy over the GNOME documentation for the most part
<godbyk> Then we just add some extra bits about Unity and tweak a few things that are specific to Ubuntu/Unity.
<eagles0513875_> godbyk: i doubt that applies for server
<godbyk> The server does don't, that's true.
<godbyk> The server docs don't rely on the GNOME docs at all.
<eagles0513875_> that is where i woudl like to focus my efforts
<godbyk> I was speaking to the desktop docs. Sorry.
<godbyk> Ah, okay.
<eagles0513875_> as i use the LTS releases for my vps's that i have for my business
<godbyk> For the server guide, they're using the Docbook markup language.
<eagles0513875_> godbyk: right now im very tempted to roll my own distro
<godbyk> I *think* the server guide may have been based on some Debian docs at one point, but don't quite me on that. I don't now much about the server guide.
<godbyk> That's quite an undertaking!
<balloons> ohh, did I miss the meeting?
<eagles0513875_> agreed i already have a desktop in mind. which i need to port apps from kde to it and remove the qt from them so to speak
<balloons> please say no!
<eagles0513875_> yes sadly :(
<mhall119> no
 * mhall119 lies
<eagles0513875_> haha
<balloons> argh... sorry everyone ;-(
<eagles0513875_> its ok balloons i was in an dout as im at work
<eagles0513875_> godbyk have you heard of enlightenment
<eagles0513875_> its one zippy DE
<pleia2> it was the first one I ever used when I started using linux in 2001
<godbyk> balloons: I'm afraid so. You can read the minutes at <http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-19.01.html> and the transcript at <http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/10/21/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:00>, however.
<godbyk> eagles0513875: Yeah, I used E back in the late 90s for a while.
<eagles0513875_> well im planning on rolling my own distro with that as the primary DE
<godbyk> Cool.
<eagles0513875_> but its lacking apps hence my work to port apps from kde
<eagles0513875_> as well working on a super low cost post of sales system on ARM with just the software embedded on it
<godbyk> Sounds like you're quite busy!
<eagles0513875_> yep work part time like i am right now + freelance work as well
<eagles0513875_> and looking for a full time job
<eagles0513875_> which is proving a big challenge
<godbyk> I'm hiding in grad school until the economy comes back. ;-)
<eagles0513875_> well im goign to start a masters next october
<eagles0513875_> right now im takign some certification courses
<eagles0513875_> php 2nd half of the course plus starting a web dev course to beef up my skills
<eagles0513875_> have another job interview tomorrow and had one today
<pleia2> godbyk: hehe
<eagles0513875_> have a sample site to design
<eagles0513875_> for this itnerview i had today and have to have it ready by next week
<eagles0513875_> or before and im setting myself a deadline of friday
<eagles0513875_> mhamhall119 hey are you there
<eagles0513875_> mhall119: are you there ?
<eagles0513875_> balloons you around?
<shaunm> godbyk: have you ever chatted with Jorge Castro?
<shaunm> he has some strong opinions on the interaction between askubuntu and the system docs
<shaunm> some day I might manage to get his Open Help presentation online
<littlegirl> Did I miss the Ubuntu doc meeting?
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: yes
<eagles0513875_> about two hrs late
<littlegirl> Blast.
<eagles0513875_> hehe im sure pleia2  has the minutes somewhere handy
<littlegirl> Oh, cool!
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl:  you need to ask her
<littlegirl> Did you attend?
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Will do, thanks. (:
<eagles0513875_> yes granted i am at work
<eagles0513875_> and runnign a bit behind
<littlegirl> Oh, sorry!
<eagles0513875_> but i have a nice short 5 day vacation in 2 weeks time :)
<littlegirl> Well, that's good. (:
<slickymaster> littlegirl, here you go http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/10/21/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:00
<eagles0513875_> suprise trip to ireland with my gf's family for my gf's bday
<littlegirl> I wish they didn't do UTC. It's very confusing. My UTC doesn't use the 24 hour clock. (:
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Oh, that sounds wonderful!
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Thanks! I'll grab them. (:
<slickymaster> littlegirl, np
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: planning on taking my camera and taking lots of pics
<littlegirl> I was so caught up in learning Python that I didn't even remember there was a meeting. Then I took a break and checked my email and there was the message saying there was a meeting, so I immediately came in here. (:
<eagles0513875_> hey slickymaster
<slickymaster> eagles0513875, yes?
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: I would, too. (:
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: better late then never
<eagles0513875_> slickymaster: just saying hey :)
<slickymaster> eagles0513875, ok ;)
<littlegirl> Yeah, but darn, I wanted to actually attend - especially since I said I could.
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Oh, pretty - it's in color! (:
<eagles0513875_> hehe
<littlegirl> Will that stay up for a while?
<slickymaster> littlegirl, we do need plenty of colors these days
<eagles0513875_> now  at midnight i need to figure out how to integrate this form with some modified programming to get it to do what i need it to do.
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Oh, I'm all about colors. (:
<slickymaster> littlegirl, :)
<eagles0513875_> which i think is a bad idea
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: That sounds like it may or may not be worse than the floating points we were just learning. (:
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: floating points arent that bad
<eagles0513875_> if it means breaking an entire website or the plugin that is worse
<eagles0513875_> as i really need to get this site completed.
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Oh, well I'll cross my fingers for you that you get it done. (:
<slickymaster> littlegirl, as I have you here, in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsSw0cKYcffNdFlFakF5M0VjR002UEVvakVPZGpydHc#gid=0
<eagles0513875_> thanks littlegirl  i hav ebene dragging it on a bit too long
<slickymaster> the pages mentioned on the first column, how do we manage to get their url?
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Oh, hang on a sec... I can find that. They're on Launchpad. Getting the main link...
<slickymaster> littlegirl, take your time, please
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Here is the main Launchpad link for the Saucy ones: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/saucy
<littlegirl> slickymaster: You click the "Browse the code" link partway down the page to navigate through the directory.
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Here is the Launchpad link for the Trusty ones: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty
<slickymaster> littlegirl, thank you so much, you spare me a few hours searching it
<littlegirl> slickymaster: No problem - I'm glad to help! (:
<littlegirl> slickymaster: If you want to change them, you don't do it there, though. Do you have them downloaded with Bazaar?
<slickymaster> littlegirl, yeah, I know. Not yet, I'm going to branch it in a moment
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Another couple I find useful are Ubuntu branches of documentation (EVERYthing): https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc-project
<slickymaster> littlegirl, thanks for the heads-up
<littlegirl> slickymaster: And this one is Ubuntu branches owned by Ubuntu documentation committers: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Any time. I just discovered the last two yesterday when I looked all over to try to edit the help.ubuntu.com pages and couldn't find it. (:
<littlegirl> With those last two there shouldn't be any of the Ubuntu code that can hide from you... I think. (:
<slickymaster> littlegirl, I can see how these last two can become handy
<slickymaster> littlegirl, there's enough for starters
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Yeah, I find the whole thing very confusing and I don't know why it's not all in one place or all done the same way, but at least we can find it all, and usually find someone in here to ask if we can't figure it out. (:
<littlegirl> My approach is to walk up to leaky walls and stick bubblegum in them and then walk away. I don't always stick around, but I keep coming back to check on the wall from time to time. (:
<eagles0513875_> ya littlegirl  its somethign i brought up earlier with godbyk
<eagles0513875_> about having everythign in one place
<eagles0513875_> i did bring up at the meeting of using a custom developed version of alfresco which is a proper document management system
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: It would be nice. I don't know why they don't do it.
<eagles0513875_> the problem is 14.04 is an LTS
<slickymaster> littlegirl, I think the reason relates to the difference between official documentation and wiki documentation
<eagles0513875_> it would need time to be modified etc
<eagles0513875_> and adapted to the needs of the projects but i twill make managing and versioning the documentation and even Images so muc heasier
<littlegirl> slickymaster: Yeah, that's one of my pet peeves right there. I don't think they should be named that way. It's very confusing - especially for newbies, but even for those of us who have been using the 'buntus for quite some time. (:
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: What's wrong with Bazaar?
 * littlegirl loooooves Bazaar
 * slickymaster also enjoy working with bzr
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: nothing but i understand version control such as bzr mercurial svn and git to be more for programming code then documentation etc
<eagles0513875_> hence why im makign a push for alfresco
<eagles0513875_> or if need be code somethign from scratch using libCMIS
<eagles0513875_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Management_Interoperability_Services
<eagles0513875_> preferably i would rather fork if need be alfresco and modify it for the needs of the ubuntu community and the projects as needed
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Oh, not at all. I version control all my documents and I'm a writer, so there are lots of words on this computer. (:
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: think of it this way
<eagles0513875_> do you want to have the hassle of having to pull massive amounts of data to your computer
<eagles0513875_> with alfresco it can be versioned and managed all on a web interface
<eagles0513875_> no repositories no nothing
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Ah, well then you've made my mind up. I'm anti-cloud and all about keeping local copies of stuff, so I definitely want to pull the code. (:
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: This is an example of why there are so many different ways of doing things in Ubuntu. We all like different stuff, and somebody on one team probably said, "Hey, why don't we do things THIS way?" and somebody else said, "Good idea!" and maybe the other teams didn't want to, so that team went in a different direction. (:
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: also its very feature packed
<eagles0513875_> has individual bug trackers for each project
<eagles0513875_> easy to manage tasks and delegate tasks
<eagles0513875_> i think a working prototype should be setup first and tried out
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: I'm sure it's very nice, but if it's online only and they used it, they would literally lose me as a contributor because that sort of thing isn't for me. (:
<eagles0513875_> you can download the files obviously
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: wouldnt you have a piece of mind knowing your work is being backed up as well on the server in otherwords the document management system
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Sure, that part is very nice, although if I'm a good girl and push my local changes with Bazaar, it gets backed up as well. I just like the freedom I have when I grab the code and work with it locally, and it's especially useful for people who travel and aren't at a reliable WiFi connection, but have a local copy of the code they can work on. (:
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl:  you can still do so with alfresco
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: If it offers both, then it maybe definitely be a candidate. Then everyone can pick whether they want to work with local or remote copies of the files. (:
<eagles0513875_> you can download individual files
<eagles0513875_> i dunno fi something like bzr could be integrated into it
<slickymaster> eagles0513875, littlegirl, have a good morning, day, night (according to your timezone)
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Then you definitely might want to set up an example server and see if you can whet everyone's appetites.
<littlegirl> slickymaster: You too, slickymaster!
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: ya im planning on it
<eagles0513875_> was told by mhall i would need to create a juju charm to have it deployed.
<littlegirl> I've used Subversion and Bazaar and would be willing to try out something new just for fun, and you never know - you might make a convert. (:
<eagles0513875_> so i need to get that sorted out and then he can setup a test server on canonical cloud hardware
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl:  :D
<eagles0513875_> im thinking though might take advantage of the api and highly modify alfresco to meet everyones needs.
<eagles0513875_> i potentially need as well to create a custom plugin which strips the mallard xml down to the text for the desktop docs
<littlegirl> Can you use it as a personal versioning system on your computer independent of the internet if you want?
<eagles0513875_> yes
<eagles0513875_> the core of it is java so if you are going ot be the only one using it you can run it on your system locally
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Any script could probably do that - Bash or Python or whatever. (:
<eagles0513875_> it uses tomcat and they have a binary installer for download on their site
<littlegirl> You have to install Java to use it?
<eagles0513875_> yes
<eagles0513875_> the core is written in java
<eagles0513875_> im still debating if i should fork it and migrate it away from java
<eagles0513875_> but then i would need to setup cross compilation to get it to work on windows and mac
<eagles0513875_> http://www.alfresco.com/products/community if you are interested
<littlegirl> Thanks, but since it's Java I wouldn't want it anyway, but if you fork it, you never know where it might go. (:
<eagles0513875_> agreed.
<eagles0513875_> the problem is time for me i have so many projects already
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: would love to fork launchpad
<eagles0513875_> lol
<eagles0513875_> and improve on it as a bug tracker
<littlegirl> I know the feeling. I'm learning Python, playing with a new program I discovered and will eventually be contributing to, occasionally contributing to Kubuntu and Ubuntu, and doing some crocheting and knitting on the side. (:
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: i really want to finish this embedded system low cost point of sales concept that I haver
<eagles0513875_> i almost have a fully fledged working prototype.
<eagles0513875_> i need to find funding.
<littlegirl> Then you'll probably do it! (:
<eagles0513875_> i hope so cuz i could start really bringing in the clients and really cause my business to take off
<eagles0513875_> sigh
<eagles0513875_> i could get or try to get EU funding for the project
<eagles0513875_> the thing is i need to do a business plan
<littlegirl> Heh, I've been reading the meeting minutes and only just realized that the first meeting isn't it. Apparently the doc team meeting is part-way down that page. (:
<eagles0513875_> well im so bhored here at work im adding new potential connections on linked in
<eagles0513875_> lol thank god littlegirl  you are around to keep me company
<littlegirl> Aw, I'm sorry it's so boring there! I'm not bored because I'm finally "at" the meeting. (:
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: nah i have lots of work other then the sitting around i have to do for this work but i dont feel like doing it
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: You just showed up at the meeting. (:
<eagles0513875_> hehe
<eagles0513875_> :D
<eagles0513875_> and i wouldnt shut up
<eagles0513875_> at the end of it
<littlegirl> What's an SRU?
<eagles0513875_> good question
<eagles0513875_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates littlegirl
<eagles0513875_> SRU stable release updates
<littlegirl> eagles0513875_: Ah, thanks! (:
 * littlegirl thinks all abbreviations should be done away with
<eagles0513875_> littlegirl: googled it :p
<littlegirl> I like bkerensas idea of a weekly status message being sent out on the mailing list so everyone knows what's going on and what needs to be done. Very nice organization technique that would really work. (:
<eagles0513875_> i agree there
<littlegirl> I'm wondering why everyone uses Google docs or the Ubuntu wiki to keep track of work when Launchpad offers such a nice Blueprint system.
<eagles0513875_> im moving away from google in general
<eagles0513875_> emails are going to start going to my business email accouhnt
<belkinsa> littlegirl, do you have the link to the logs of the meeting?
<belkinsa> Never mind, phillw passed me thelink
 * eagles0513875_ pokes littlegirl  with some balloons 
<littlegirl> Whoops, sorry - I was away from keys: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/10/21/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:00
<littlegirl> belkinsa: It's about a third of the way down. (:
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<littlegirl> Well, it's feeding time here, so I'm off. I converted the meeting minutes into a PDF so I can finish reading them later. See you later and have fun! (:
#ubuntu-doc 2013-10-22
<littlegirl> I'm sorry I missed the meeting, pleia2.
<pleia2> littlegirl: no problem
<littlegirl> pleia2: My brain and UTC don't go together. (:
<pleia2> meetings tend to be just sync up times anyway, we can always discuss any of the topics on the mailing list
<pleia2> haha, I use Xubuntu and have UTC time in one of my panels :)
<pleia2> humans are terrible at timezones
<littlegirl> My Kubuntu has it when I hover over the time in my panel, but it's not in 24 hour mode. I'm better with words than numbers. (:
<pleia2> and I make use of my calendar, so for important meetings it emails me 10 minutes before
<pleia2> ah yeah, I moved to 24-hour time a few years back almost exclusively because of open source meetings
<pleia2> my brain is so conditioned now that I have to convert 24 to 12 hour time these days (was funny when I realized that)
<pleia2> 7pm... what is that, 1900!
<littlegirl> Yeah, I used to be in the military. You'd think I'd remember it, but I happily forgot it and went on to pursue other (more interesting to me) things. (: (: (:
<pleia2> hehe
<littlegirl> I'd like to comment on some of the stuff that was discussed in the meeting if it's not too late. I read the minutes.
<pleia2> sure
<littlegirl> I worry when I often see so many people recommending adding things, like more wiki pages or new software to manage what already seems to be overwhelming at times because of the shortage of people or what's already working just fine. Hopefully this happens from time to time and just passes on its own. If not, I'd like to find a diplomatic way of discouraging it. (:
<pleia2> I tend to agree, I don't want to discourage too strongly and drive folks away from good solutions, but where we stand now leveraging our existing team members to manage our existing tools more efficiently is where I'm leaning
<littlegirl> Yeah. I think you and bkerensa were doing well with that by keeping to the topics at hand and focusing on working with what is already there, and bkerensa's idea of sending out a status message weekly (a brilliant idea, in my opinion!). (:
<pleia2> thanks, and yeah I do love the status message idea
<pleia2> I think a lot of people want to contribute but don't have the time to wade through lots of history or instructions, a weekly email of status and small tasks would rock
<pleia2> "this week, we're doing grammar review, here's how: ..."
<littlegirl> Most people (myself included) like some sort of direction rather than to be just turned loose and allowed to do whatever we like, and the status message is a great way for someone to say this, this, and this need doing. (:
<pleia2> yeah, totally
<littlegirl> Agreed, and the mailing list is great because we can all read it at our convenience. (:
<littlegirl> And yeah, the explanation of how to do something that needs to be done is an awesome addition, especially since you could template grammar review instructions and use them again in future when grammar review comes up again. (:
 * pleia2 nods
<littlegirl> Also, and this wasn't mentioned at the meeting (but might have been if I had attended it), I'm curious why the Launchpad blueprints aren't used by all the teams? The Kubuntu documentation team uses Trello and the Ubuntu documentation team uses a Google document. Is there a flaw or flaws to the Launchpad blueprints?
<pleia2> launchpad blueprints are good for specific tasks like "open documentation for 14.04" "put out call for contributing to 14.04 docs" and similar, less so for going through something page by page
<pleia2> not sure why kubuntu uses trello, blueprints can be used for that, maybe it's just what their contributors prefer
<littlegirl> I supppose that makes sense. (:
<littlegirl> Last, but not least, I hope you guys don't mind that my contributions are a bit sporadic. Even though I sometimes am off doing other things, I will always come back and see if there's anything that needs doing. (:
<belkinsa> Just a though, can anyone "bug" a community wiki page if they don't know how to edit it?
<pleia2> I don't think it has a bug tracker, people typically just email the list if they want to fix something but can't log in
<pleia2> mostly people just edit themselves though
<belkinsa> True, true.  I don't know why this came up in my mind.
<pleia2> looks like people do sometimes submit bugs here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bugs
<pleia2> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/876113 for instance
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 876113 in Ubuntu Documentation "bug reporting wiki page says run "ubuntu-bug" with no arg, but it fails" [Undecided,New]
<pleia2> I agree that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs#Filing_a_general_bug_against_no_particular_package should be fixed if you're looking for something to do ;)
 * pleia2 updates the bug
<belkinsa> I can take this job
<pleia2> there, updated bug with a text proposal
<pleia2> might want to doublecheck the behavior though so we make sure it's accurate :)
<belkinsa> Okay, I will
<pleia2> you rock \o/
<belkinsa> And thank you for pointing that bug out
<pleia2> honestly all these bugs could use going through
<belkinsa> I agree, some are outdated.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-10-23
<phillw> belkinsa: Brian Murray did an excellent classroom session explaining some of the abilities of ubuntu-bug over at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/06/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t21:30
<belkinsa> Thanks, I will look at it
<phillw> it was a short session, but packed to bursting with information!
<eagles0513875> hey phillw pleia2 mhall119 balloons
<phillw> hi eagles0513875, just had dog walking and feeding time here! I trust you are well :)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-10-24
<littlegirl> Hey there, godbyk, are you at your keyboard?
<ahoneybun> hello all
<belkinsa> Troll/bot alert?
<belkinsa> Guess not, sorry about that ahoneybun.
<ahoneybun> belkinsa: not a troll lol
 * belkinsa forgot what channel she was in
<phillw> belkinsa: stand down you rotweiller :D
#ubuntu-doc 2013-10-25
<eagles0513875> hey all
<eagles0513875> hey belkinsa
<eagles0513875> hey phillw
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: are you around as I am responding to your emails lol
<belkinsa> Not really, but I will in 5 minutes.
<eagles0513875> ok lol belkinsa ping me when you are available
<belkinsa> Okay, ready to help you.
<belkinsa> eagles0513875: Do you have a LP account set up?
<eagles0513875> yes already logged in with the single sign on :)
<eagles0513875> logged in on both wiki and lp
<belkinsa> Okay.
<belkinsa> Go to this page wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875
<belkinsa> What does it give you?
<eagles0513875> hold on
<eagles0513875> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles051387 it gives me template options
<belkinsa> Do create new page for that  one.
<eagles0513875> waht do i call it
<belkinsa> It's already named http://spacepestremoval.com/comic/hurry/
<belkinsa> eagles0513875*
<eagles0513875> ?
<belkinsa> I forgot what was last copied
<eagles0513875> lol
<eagles0513875> not sure what that comic has to do with anythign but lol
<eagles0513875> hey mhall119 :)
<belkinsa> When you create a new page, you specify the name of the page via url of the page and then you make a new page that way.
<belkinsa> You can do this for the sandbox wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875/sandbox
<belkinsa> But for the user info page , you can use this template: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
<belkinsa> And an example of one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/belkinsa
<eagles0513875> ok i create a new template page?
<belkinsa> No.
<eagles0513875> im lost
<eagles0513875> so i am already in my sandbox page?
<belkinsa> Give me a minute
<belkinsa> No really, you need to finish creating it
<belkinsa> It says this, "This page does not exist yet. You can create a new empty page, or use one of the page templates" and under that it has a link "create a new page" <--- click that and it will take you the editor.
<eagles0513875> ok then what?
<belkinsa> Do you get this message in  the editor text box, "Describe eagles0513875/sandbox here."?
<eagles0513875> yes
<eagles0513875> Describe eagles051387 here.
<belkinsa> Now it's up to you if you want to edit the page now or you can just save it and edit it later.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: if you are up for it it would be great to have a page on the wiki about how to do this cuz im sure that would be great for others who want to contribute to have available
<belkinsa> That's what I will do.
<belkinsa> Also, I think that topic on having a final draft of the guide for us wasn't talked about in the meeting.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: how do i edit it now?
<eagles0513875> what wiki infrastructure are they using in terms of software?
<belkinsa> Under the "Ubuntu Wiki" banner, there is a white banner that says, " Edit|Info|Subscribe|Attachments|<username>|Logout|Help".
<belkinsa> MoinMoin wiki.
<belkinsa> http://moinmo.in/
<belkinsa> Do you see that white banner?
<eagles0513875> ;interesting :)
<eagles0513875> i managed to figure out the title :)
<belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpContents This could help but I agree, it would be better if there was user friendly guide.
<belkinsa> This is for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnPageCreation
<eagles0513875> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles051387 :D
<eagles0513875> thats a start
<belkinsa> It is.  But are you planning to make a about you wiki page if you aiming for a Ubuntu Membership?
<eagles0513875> oh
<eagles0513875> wait im confused
<eagles0513875> lol
<eagles0513875> where do we start doing the documentation  work for the community wiki
<eagles0513875> that is what im after
<eagles0513875> or would you recommend I create an about me wiki page?
<belkinsa> It's up to you though if you want an Ubuntu Membership.  Info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<belkinsa> It's not really but it's sometimes useful.
<eagles0513875> ok
 * belkinsa is planning to get mine
<belkinsa> Also, I feel like your work will be a great help for the community if it all works out.
<eagles0513875> ok I will work on my about me :)
<belkinsa> It's up to you though, I'm not making you to do it.
<belkinsa> But if you need a sandbox page you can always do wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875/sandbox
<eagles0513875> ty :)
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> I started work on a wiki page called "SandboxPages" and it will act like the guide for this topic.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: its not linking my wiki page to my launchpad profile
<eagles0513875> should it?
<belkinsa> It can, if you add the link to the page itself but usually this tells you it SandboxPages (last edited 2013-10-25 08:31:40 by belkinsa) and this on the bottom of the page.  But if you want your wiki page to true to your username on LP, you should do so.
<belkinsa> That was an example about the last edited message.
<eagles0513875> im talking about the about me wiki page
<belkinsa> Add the LP account (page) link to the page yourself.
<eagles0513875> add it in launch pad or the other way round
<belkinsa> [[https://launchpad.net/~eagles051387|My LP Page]]
<belkinsa> No, on wiki page
<belkinsa> Something like that.
<eagles0513875> ahh ok
<belkinsa> There is a temple (showed you the link already) to follow.
<eagles0513875> the membership link
<belkinsa> No
<belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
<belkinsa> You can do edit, copy and paste that on your page, and cancel the editing of THAT page.
<belkinsa> That = as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: you know what i am noticing that we have no documentation on how to setup and configure launch pad now that
<belkinsa> What?  Creating a user info page?
<eagles0513875> no
<eagles0513875> community page
<belkinsa> As in a new page for a new topic?
<eagles0513875> yes
<eagles0513875> i can take that up if need be
<eagles0513875> one step at a time
<eagles0513875> does the community doc's have same deadlines as official docs
<belkinsa> Good point.  I was thinking about writing that page myself, but if you want to start, you can.
<belkinsa> I think not, but I'm not sure.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: reason i can take it up as my main focus is ubuntu server
<eagles0513875> and i have a server to test on
<belkinsa> That cool.
<belkinsa> Anyways, I need to go.  When you have that page done, want to send it off to me so i can look at it?
<eagles0513875> sure thing ill link you to the about me wiki page :)
<belkinsa> Thanks.  You can do it via e-mail or PM.
<belkinsa> See ya!
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: ill see what i do
<bkerensa> belkinsa: ello
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: i will work on the wiki once i get to work
<belkinsa> bkerensa: Hey there, you missed me though, I had to go class.  Did you me need me?
<eagles0513875> hey littlegirl belkinsa pleia2
<eagles0513875> mhall119:  as well :D and balloons
<littlegirl> Hey there. (:
<pleia2> morning
<eagles0513875> how ar eyou littlegirl :)
<eagles0513875> night here :D
<balloons> howdy eagles0513875
<littlegirl> Pretty good. You?
<eagles0513875> not bad here at work after a web development course :D
<eagles0513875> and im loving web development atm
<eagles0513875> starting to work on a site for my gf's father even though he has not approved the quote yet im getting a jump start on it
<eagles0513875> how are you pleia2
<eagles0513875> balloons: :) how are things in the land of canonical administration
<eagles0513875> server admin that is
<balloons> eagles0513875, ?
<eagles0513875> arent you a canonical server admin
<balloons> eagles0513875, no
<eagles0513875> oh my bad
<balloons> :-) I work with the quality community
<eagles0513875> ahh
<eagles0513875> ok sry for the confusion
<balloons> we do fun stuff like testing
<eagles0513875> im getting my hands dirty starting to document some things that i have setup in community documentation
<eagles0513875> with postfix + dovecot single domain setup as well as postfix dovecot mysql with virtual users and domain setup and postfix admin
<pleia2> eagles0513875: good good, busy friday :)
<eagles0513875> ya same here pleia2
<eagles0513875> went from web development course came stright to work
<eagles0513875> 6 more days until i go on a short vacation
<eagles0513875> im getting excited pleia2
<pleia2> I'm going to Hong Kong in a week, but it's not a vacation
<eagles0513875> pleia2: im off to dublin for a short suprise vacation with my gf and her family for her bday
<pleia2> eagles0513875: very nice, I love dublin :)
<eagles0513875> will be my first time to go
<eagles0513875> and im taking my camera :)
 * pleia2 took lots of pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/sets/72157625081321357/
<eagles0513875> lol
<pleia2> pro tip: don't do the guinness and the jameson tour right after each other :)
<eagles0513875> pleia2: seeing your pics is making me more excited
<eagles0513875> and why not
<pleia2> drunk
<pleia2> hehe
<eagles0513875> haha how many did you drink
<pleia2> well I had a couple guinesses on the guinness tour, then I got to be one of the lucky three selected for a tasting on the jameson tour
<pleia2> so 4 shots there
<pleia2> I also didn't eat much that day, so that doesn't help
<eagles0513875> no it doesnt lol
<eagles0513875> now back to web programming i go
<eagles0513875> started a web development course and its really kool tbh
<eagles0513875> pleia2: is tom davies in here?
<eagles0513875> d smythies i mean
<pleia2> eagles0513875: when he is here, he's dsmythies, but I think he reads the logs
<eagles0513875> gotcha :)
<eagles0513875> thanks for the heads up
<eagles0513875> im working on a wiki page so i can become a member.
<littlegirl> Hey there, godbyk, are you at your keyboard?
<eagles0513875> littlegirl: hes a godbyk hes everywhere
<littlegirl> hehe
<littlegirl> I'm kind of stuck. I'm really motivated to do the docs right now (and that's not always the case) and I'm waiting to hear from him whether he's okay with the reformatting I'm doing of the layout of the docs before I continue doing more of them. I hope he's like Doug and comes in here and reads the logs. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: I'm here now.
<godbyk> Just getting caught up on reading the channel backlog..
<godbyk> Let me pull down your latest changes and take a look real quick.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, cool. Listen, can you grab any of the .page files that start with the letter a and see if you're cool with what I did to them - especially if you compare them with the GNOME versions of them in whatever you're using to diff them?
<godbyk> littlegirl: Have you been using xmllint or some other tool to do the indentation and wrapping?
<godbyk> Will do!
<littlegirl> godbyk: Nope - my fingers are doing all the work. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Wow!
<littlegirl> godbyk: I can undo anything I did, and I'd rather know from you before I keep going. Right now I've got the pages that say, "Merge GNOME updates" in the spreadsheet marked in red in my personal file to let me know that I shouldn't do those yet until you've got them merged (because you'll probably have an easier time comparing them before I change their layout). The rest I intend to do, if that's okay with you. (:
 * littlegirl types like the wind.
<littlegirl> I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the fastest typist in the world. (:
<eagles0513875> littlegirl: how many words per min
<eagles0513875> i do about 60 if not faster now since the last time i checked
 * eagles0513875 stays swearing at this web coding im doing
<littlegirl> 130
<eagles0513875> damn girl
<eagles0513875> might wanna stock up on some shoes you probably burn through that rubber so fast at the speeds you travel :p
<littlegirl> Yeah, and that's with proper punctuation, spelling, and (hopefully) grammar, and it's also removing any errors as they happen by quickly backspacing. (:
<eagles0513875> littlegirl: what documentation are you working on the community stuff?
<littlegirl> eagles0513875: The core documentation: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty
<eagles0513875> kool :)
<eagles0513875> im probably going to join the server guide team
<godbyk> littlegirl: Did you rearrange the credit, link, desc, and revision tags?
<eagles0513875> seeing as I am doign alot of technical setups :) would be great im sure to expand the documentation
<littlegirl> I was working on the Kubuntu documentation, but they got away from bzr and Launchpad and are doing stuff in Trello and the wiki, which isn't really my type of thing, so I came over here to the Ubuntu team to see what needed doing. (:
<eagles0513875> me im a kde user
<eagles0513875> i cant stand unity or gnome for that matter :X
 * eagles0513875 goes to run and hide
<littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, I alphabetized them (except for link tags, which need to be in the order given, because they are generally alphabetized when viewed in Yelp or whatever).
<littlegirl> eagles0513875: Me neither. I use Kubuntu. But you can still help Ubuntu and maybe run it in a VM. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: It looks like the GNOME docs use the order (link, revision, desc, credit) fairly consistently.
<littlegirl> godbyk: I checked with the Mallard documentation and it says the info element can contain the other elements in any order, so I hope that was okay.
<godbyk> So we should probably use that order, too, so it's easier to compare them and merge them.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, would you rather I use that instead? I can fix the ones I did. (:
<godbyk> They can be in any order. It's not a problem for Mallard per se. It just makes it more difficult to compare GNOME and Ubuntu Docs line-by-line when some of the lines are shuffled in a different order.
<eagles0513875> littlegirl: agreed speaking of i need to install kvm on here
<eagles0513875> going to use that as my virtualization platform of choice :)
<godbyk> Also, I think the only lines that get wrapped in the <info> block are long <desc> paragraphs.
<godbyk> It appears all the others are kept on a one-tag-per-line basis.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, not a problem. I copied and pasted the order you just listed into my little personal file and will change the ones I did to that and do the rest in that order from now on. (:
<littlegirl> godbyk: Sometimes the revision elements are long, too.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Do you know who adds the revision pkversion elements? Those seem to use a different version number (like 0.1 or 0.2 or 0.3) instead of the Ubuntu release version numbers.
<godbyk> littlegirl: I just grepped all the <revision> tags in the GNOME docs and they're all one-liners.  One <revision> per line.
<godbyk> littlegirl: I suspect we inherited most of those from the GNOME docs.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, they're one line, but they're longer than 80 characters, and I'm hard-wrapping the text, and some of them have to be hard-wrapped. (:
<littlegirl> godbyk: Not all of them - just some. (:
<godbyk> Ah, well, we'll have to break the 80-column limit, then, I guess.
<godbyk> (I've never much cared for the 80-column limit, but that's just my personal preference.)
<littlegirl> godbyk: Do you have a number in mind?
<littlegirl> godbyk: It's what the GNOME docs seem to use (except when someone edited a file and added some text and didn't wrap it), so I started using it. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Well, they are wrapping paragraphs. I'll see if they have a consistent line limit there. But the revision tags are never wrapped (in the GNOME docs, at least).
 * littlegirl thinks the GNOME team needs to let her at their documentation. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Ha! They might just let you!
<littlegirl> godbyk: My personal preference would be to not hard-wrap anything, but different diff programs (and emails, if you have yourself set to be notified of changes) wrap at seventy some-odd characters per line, so even eighty is breaking that limit.
<godbyk> littlegirl: You might look at the xmllint and xmlindent programs. The benefit of using those (with decent settings) is that it (1) automates most of the work so you don't have to hand-edit all the files, and (2) means I can run the GNOME docs through the same program with the same settings to make it easy to compare Ubuntu and GNOME docs.
<littlegirl> godbyk: The problem is that the layout of the docs isn't consistent throughout. Sometimes everything is nicely indented and wrapped, and other times multiple tags will be on one line (like </p></item><item><p>, and I'm not sure xmllint could look for those and fix them, could it?
<littlegirl> I'm thinking some of this stuff needs literal surgery, and it's only going to be possible to do it manually. The rest could probably be automated. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: xmllint can do things like ensure one tag per line with nested indentation and the like.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Ooooh, nice! Do you know how to do it?
<godbyk> But you're right that those programs can't do everything automatically.
<godbyk> So we'll still have to do some things by hand.
<littlegirl> Maybe we could run it and then babysit it afterward to make sure it got everything right, and fix anything it didn't. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: You could try "xmllint --format mypage.page"
<godbyk> xmllint has a ton of options you can play with.
<godbyk> I'd probably try to find some that are relatively close to those used in the GNOME docs.
<godbyk> And if none of the built-in style features work, we could always whip up our own formatting script to do things just the way we like. :-)
<littlegirl> If we find one that works well, can't we run it on both to make them the same, for comparison's sake?
<godbyk> littlegirl: Yeah, that's my thinking.
<godbyk> littlegirl: Then even if the Ubuntu and GNOME docs are formatted slightly differently, we can just run the GNOME docs through our formatter to make them look like ours and then do the comparison after that.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, I'll read up on xmllint and play around with it and see what I can come up with. (:
<littlegirl> godbyk:
<godbyk> There's also xmlindent. I'm not sure if it has more or fewer formatting options.
<littlegirl> Great! Then even if there's a new version later, the same thing can be done. (:
<godbyk> Yep!
<littlegirl> I don't have that. It's not a default program?
<godbyk> And I can easily update my crosscheck.sh script to format the Ubuntu and GNOME docs through xmllint or whatever before loading the results into meld for comparison.
 * godbyk likes shell scripts
 * godbyk is lazy
<littlegirl> Same here, but not the lazy part. I just love scripts. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Looks like there's an xmlindent package that I have installed.
<littlegirl> Now would this be a formal script that gets added to the repository so anyone can run it, or is this something you and I are working on unofficially?
 * littlegirl always likes to know her parameters (:
<littlegirl> I'll have to install it and check it out if xmllint doesn't do what I want. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: I can certainly add it to the repository.
<godbyk> Right now it's just a one-line script.
<godbyk> It just runs this:  meld $1 ~/git/gnome-user-docs/gnome-help/C/$1
<littlegirl> I have yet to try it. (:
<godbyk> where $1 is the filename I want to compare.
<godbyk> Saves me from typing the the path to the gnome docs all the time.
 * littlegirl immediately steals the meld command
<littlegirl> I had no idea you could run Meld from the command line. (:
<godbyk> meld is great for diffing files. I recommend it.
<littlegirl> Oh, I use it, but I use the GUI and browse to the files manually. I had no idea I could type them in (which I much prefer). (:
<godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
<belkinsa> All, was the draft of how to contribute talked about during the meeting?
<godbyk> belkinsa: Not in any detail. Only that we should create one.
<pleia2> I owe an email to the list about basic contributing to trusty
<belkinsa> or any release.
<littlegirl> Are you guys talking about contributing to the wiki?
<pleia2> well, the idea is for every release and call for participation we send out an email with the basics
<pleia2> so my email will specificially reference trusty in this case
<belkinsa> Because I feel like we talked about many ways to use resources to write and check wiki pages on the list.
<belkinsa> Oh, right, duh.
<pleia2> that way we don't have people reading an "it's open!" and then have to dig through docs to figure out how to do something
<belkinsa> Wiki pages and official docs.
<pleia2> I'm referring to the shipped documentation, not wiki
<littlegirl> godbyk: I ran the xmllint --format pagename.page command and am not completely satisfied with the results. I'll have to look whether there's a way to tweak it. (:
<belkinsa> Oh, then never mind.
<littlegirl> pleia2: Ah, okay. Well, if you need any help with the How To Use Bazaar or make changes to the repository files or commit and push them, I'd be happy to collaborate. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: There are a bunch of command-line options you can explore. See xmlline --help.
<belkinsa> pleia2, mind if I work on  a guide for the wiki?
<godbyk> littlegirl: xmlindent --help has some options, too.
<belkinsa> Or at least to add to the one we have.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, I'm already in the man page and will check the --help afterward. If I can "bully" it into behaving the way I like, I'll be one happy camper. (:
<pleia2> belkinsa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
<pleia2> belkinsa: if there are docs missing from those pages, please do work to improve them :)
<godbyk> littlegirl: But if none of those work the way we want, we can whip up our own script to do the formatting the way we want. XML is pretty easy to work with.
<belkinsa> Gotcha.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Yeah, that's true. Okay, I'm game. (:
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide should have most details though
<godbyk> littlegirl: I think those existing scripts may not work quite like we want because they probably don't have a way to say 'wrap <p> tags but not <revision> tags', for instance.
<belkinsa> It's more of how one can contribute to the wiki that is missing.
<belkinsa> Oh, there's the guide that I needed!
<littlegirl> godbyk: Well, it's occurring to me that even if they don't, at least if we ran that one simple command (without even inventing another) on all the files, at least they'd all be consistent in their presentation (unless it screws up something in any of them, but we'll be babysitting). (:
<littlegirl> I wrote this a while ago, and although it's for Kubuntu, it gives an idea of the kind of stuff I can write: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/SystemDocumentation
<pleia2> belkinsa: that WikiGuide page is linked twice on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki - maybe you can figure out a way to improve its visiblity on that page?
<pleia2> belkinsa: I've seen these pages way, way too many times, my brain is useless :)
<belkinsa> I can and there is also some other things I want to bring up.  For example Sandbox pages is one.
<littlegirl> Sorry, that should have been directed to pleia2.
<pleia2> "of course the link is there and there, it's always been there!"
<godbyk> littlegirl: True. As long as the elements stay in the same order, the indentation and wrapping and whatnot don't matter too much.
<pleia2> littlegirl: yeah, we re-wrote this last cycle: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
<littlegirl> godbyk: And even if we don't love it, it's a baseline from which everything else can fall into place. (:
<belkinsa> pleia2: Couldn't there be a ref to the guide right on the home page of wiki.ubuntu.com?
<godbyk> littlegirl: Yeah. :)
<littlegirl> pleia2: Ah, so you already have it in Ubuntu. (:
<pleia2> belkinsa: no, wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community/ are different things
<belkinsa> No- as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/.
<pleia2> belkinsa: we don't want references to how to get involved with help.ubuntu.com/community/ on the main wiki.ubuntu.com page, it would confuse people :\
<littlegirl> godbyk: Well, let me have a bit of a play with xmllint and see if I can't make it dance. If not, then we can go ahead and use the basic command as our baseline for everything, and just have that as a very small script that we let users know about in the repository for any future edits or additions. (:
<belkinsa> I was thinking under Get Involved heading.
<belkinsa> But you maybe right.
<littlegirl> pleia2: I feel very strongly that wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com are badly named and really, really, really should be renamed.
<pleia2> belkinsa: I don't think it's fair to give a link to the docs team stuff there, there are dozens of teams within ubuntu
 * littlegirl throws another really onto the pile for good measure
<pleia2> littlegirl: indeed, it confuses everyone, but it's a bit too late to change things
<littlegirl> pleia2: Hopefully it's not too late. I've been using Kubuntu for years, and I'm still confused to this day and have to look it up because I can't remember it. It's even worse for newbies. (:
<pleia2> help.ubuntu.com/community should probably be docs.ubuntu.com as it's own wiki
<belkinsa> +1
<pleia2> but changing that now would be super painful, and I don't think we have the resources to do it (community + canonical IS resources)
<littlegirl> pleia2: That's a shame. Hopefully they're at least talking about it and dusting it off at meetings from time to time so that maybe at some point it will get done. (:
<shaunm> littlegirl: I guarantee the gnome docs team would let you at their documentation
<shaunm> (responding to stuff said earlier)
<littlegirl> shaunm: They might hesitate if they knew I use KDE, though. (:
<shaunm> to clarify things: the order of any child elements of info, including link elements, does not matter (except in very rare corner cases that you should strive to avoid)
<godbyk> shaunm: They only matter to me when I'm comparing the Ubuntu docs that we've inherited from the GNOME docs.
<littlegirl> shaunm: I'm under the impression, though, that link elements display in the order they're placed in the document, though, right? In which case, if it's a matter of whether they display in alphabetical order in the raw document or whether they do so in the displayed document, the displayed document would trump, I think). (:
<littlegirl> Yeah, and I'm trying not to make the comparisons too rough for godbyk when I do all this "violent" stuff to the docs. (:
<shaunm> they are displayed alphabetical by their title. the order the link elements come in doesn't affect anything
<littlegirl> If you look at all the .page files that start with a, they're all very pretty in their raw state, now. (:
<littlegirl> shaunm: Oh, you just made me very happy. Then I could go through and alphabetize them in their raw state, too. (:
<littlegirl> I literally like Mallard and Bzr so much that I'm thinking of using Mallard for my personal documents since I already use Bzr, and they fit so nicely together. (:
<shaunm> I suppose the order of the link elements might make a difference if you link to two pages that have the same title. that's one of those very rare corner cases I mentioned that you should strive to avoid :)
<shaunm> \o/
<littlegirl> shaunm: True. (:
<littlegirl> LOL, let me guess. You're a Mallard developer?
<shaunm> yes, guilty
<littlegirl> shaunm: Nice work! I like it better than DocBook! (:
<shaunm> get KDE to switch ;)
<godbyk> shaunm: I skimmed through your MEP about the <info> element the other day. I don't have any objections to it. Have there been a lot of requests for that sort of extension?
<littlegirl> I wish I could. They've gone off of the repository entirely with the main body of the documentation and have it on the wiki. I'm *not* a wiki person, so I've kind of stopped helping out for the most part, although I still contribute sometimes. (:
<shaunm> godbyk: it comes up occasionally
<shaunm> or rather, something comes up that would be handled by it, like doing alt titles on expanders on figures
<godbyk> shaunm: One idea that I had that would be helpful is to be able to add a package attribute to the revision element so you could specify that a page/section/whatever of documentation corresponds to a particular version of a package/application.
<godbyk> Then I could run a script to find outdated documentation by comparing the documented package versions against the current package version.
<godbyk> shaunm: Oh, and on another topic.. my earlier question about the comment block placement (i.e., it doesn't work at the end of a page). Is there anything in the documentation that explains why it's currently disallowed?
<shaunm> godbyk: that's what pkgversion is for. 'yelp-check status' even lets you filter based on it
<shaunm> as for comment blocks, basically you can't put any blocks after sections, mostly because it's difficult to come up with a sensible rendering for it. the same limitation exists in docbook
<littlegirl> shaunm: There are many documents that have two revision elements inside the info element. I realize you can have as many as you like. What I'm wondering, though, is that some are revision version and others are revision pkgversion version, and the ones with pkgversion version have a different version number in them. Do you know who adds that element and whether it's important to preserve or update those versions?
<shaunm> and not being able to put blocks in general (e.g. paragraphs) after sections never seems to bother people, but there have been a surprisingly large number of requests for comments after sections
<littlegirl> shaunm: To embellish that a bit, the ones with revision version use the Ubuntu release number as their version. The ones with revision pkgversion version use 0.1 or 0.2 or 0.3 and I'm not sure what those represent.
<godbyk> shaunm: Yeah, I found a few GNOME docs that had comments after sections. I may submit an MEP for that since it shouldn't impact rendering adversely.
<shaunm> my guess is you're seeing version numbers inherited from gnome
<shaunm> and gnome earlier on was very sloppy about how it used them
<godbyk> shaunm: Per the pkgversion attribute, while it specifies the version, it doesn't specify the package *name*.
<godbyk> Though I suppose if pkgversion is never used by yelp, etc., then I could use a packagename-version string for the pkgversion attribute.
<littlegirl> So godbyk, can we get rid of those versions from the docs and just add the pkgversion attribute to the revision element and only have one revision element per document?
<littlegirl> Some developer might want to know which package version a document is for, so keeping those is probably a good idea even if Yelp doesn't use them.
<godbyk> littlegirl: Well, having the GNOME revision elements is handy as we don't always want the latest GNOME docs (since Ubuntu lags behind a bit).
<littlegirl> godbyk: Ah, okay, that makes sense. (:
<littlegirl> godbyk: I don't see any way to customize what xmllint does to a file, so we can just decide to use it as is or get people to install something else (not recommended) or write something ourselves. Which is most appealing to you?
<godbyk> Hmm.. well, writing something ourselves shouldn't be too onerous. I could probably whip up a Python script pretty quickly.
<godbyk> The benefit of having our own script is that we can customize the formatting to our exacting standards. :)
<littlegirl> We should be able to help with it. My son and I are learning Python, and we're newbs, but already know a surprising amount. (:
<godbyk> Ah, cool. We'll you're welcome to take first crack at it if you like.
 * littlegirl can be kind of exacting at times (:
<godbyk> You could also have the script handle the updating of the version numbers and status info.
<godbyk> Might save you even more typing!
<littlegirl> LOL
<littlegirl> Anything we write might be a bit clunky and need some polishing, though, since we're still very definitely newbs. (:
<godbyk> No problem. I don't write enough Python to be particularly good at it, either.
<littlegirl> godbyk: If there's one that does version number and status updates, it should probably be a separate script full of sternly worded warnings. (:
<littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, cool, then we can stumble through it together. (:
<godbyk> That's true.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-10-26
<shaunm> godbyk: hmm, that's true. I could see it being useful to be able to record what version of ubuntu a page was last checked for, as well as the last time it was checked against the corresponding gnome package
<shaunm> that's tricky
<godbyk> shaunm: yeah
<godbyk> shaunm: Are there any constraints on the pkgversion attribute?  Can I use it to store a string like mypackage-1.2.3?
<shaunm> no constraints
<shaunm> it's possible some tool somewhere might try to (for example) sort with the assumption of dotted tuples
<shaunm> that does give me an idea though
#ubuntu-doc 2014-10-24
<pajusmar> hi, i want to report that there is error in 14.10 release notes
<pajusmar> chromium browser is still ver 37 not ver 38
<pajusmar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseNotes Desktop section
#ubuntu-doc 2015-10-21
<ccope> images in this section aren't loading anymore: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#job-states
<ccope> looks like maybe jhunt's directory is gone? http://people.canonical.com/~jhunt/upstart/upstart-states.png
<dsmythies> pmatulis: The updated overalll index.html for ubuntu.help.com is on my test web site now. Have a look.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: looking...
<pmatulis> dsmythies: looks great!
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Just double checking: Are you O.K. with where I moved "Cloud documentation developed and maintained by Canonical and the Ubuntu Community." to? the only other place would be before everything, so I tought after was better.
<pmatulis> ccope: looking
<pmatulis> dsmythies: reading...
<pmatulis> dsmythies: yeah, that really applies to all 4 cloud links
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Yes.
<dsmythies> pmatulis: so you think it should go before the big header "Cloud Tools Documentation"? Or are you O.K. with the way I have it?
<pmatulis> dsmythies: i wonder if we could have one Cloud header and then put the sentence. followed by 2 sub-headers
<pmatulis> (tools, installers)
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Yes, I was thinking that earlier also. I'll do it and we cam compare. Leave a broswer open with what I have and then start a new one to show the new one that I will put there in a few minutes. ... I'll ping you when ...
<pmatulis> or...
<pmatulis> simply put this after each of the existing headers:
<pmatulis> "Developed and maintained by Canonical and the Ubuntu Community."
<pmatulis> dsmythies: as you wish. i don't want to make too much work for you at this time
<dsmythies> pmatulis: O.K. I have it now, but don't see enough difference between h1 and h2 header, Will try h3.
<dsmythies> pmatulis: O.K. with h3 headers is there now. I like it.
<pmatulis> looking...
<pmatulis> dsmythies: wondering if we need the "Documentation" in each of the sub-headers
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Very good point. Wait a minute...
<dsmythies> pmatulis: O.K. look again (refresh).
<pmatulis> dsmythies: yeah, looks good to me
<dsmythies> pmatulis: O.K. I will commit and push.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: acknowledged
<pmatulis> dsmythies: thanks for helping with my addition
<dsmythies> pmatulis: You are welcome. It was not much work, and we got it right with this. Overall, new release stuff is a bit easier with the changes you suggested a few months ago.
#ubuntu-doc 2015-10-23
<ccope> pmatulis, was this the correct place to report the image loading issues in the upstart job states doc?
<pmatulis> ccope: the community documentation team is not responsible for that site but it was a good guess. probably the best avenue would have been the community request tracker (which i can never find). i alerted the canonical sysadmin team about the issue you found
<pmatulis> might be rt@ubuntu.com
<pmatulis> ccope: actually, the #canonical-sysadmin channel is a goodie and its topic contains rt@ubuntu.com
<ccope> pmatulis, ok cool, i'll ping there. thanks for the tip!
#ubuntu-doc 2016-10-26
<CliveGerard> Is this the place for UbuntuOne questions?
<pmatulis> no
#ubuntu-doc 2016-10-27
<daftykins> hey folks, how does one get permitted to edit the wiki pages?
#ubuntu-doc 2016-10-28
<pmatulis> daft...
