#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-08
<TheMuso`> c
<quadrispro> falktx, we have a problem with zyn
<quadrispro> falktx, addsynth_voice.h misses license header
<falktx> we should contact the author
<falktx> nedko is offline, i'll check the svn...
<falktx> actually the file was removed
<falktx> http://repo.or.cz/w/zyn.git/commit/0b2094d92c29b0ef5bd3ca3265eb1e3e221085df
<alessio> falktx, have you tried to build the package without that file?
<falktx> yes
<falktx> builds fine
<falktx> i'll create a patch
<falktx> done
<falktx> i'll make a debdiff soon
<alessio> falktx, so i can get the package from git
<falktx> should we use the git?
<falktx> or the official "1" release with a patch?
<alessio> falktx, I should repack the tarball I think
<falktx> why?
<alessio> falktx, I'm asking a ftp-master for some info
<alessio> ok, i must repack the tarball
<falktx> alessio: u do it?
<falktx> alessio: or should I?
<alessio> falktx, yep, I upload the packaging to pkg-multimedia's git area
<alessio> falktx, is it ok?
<falktx> yes
<falktx> i have to handle fst
<falktx> then festige
<falktx> but fst requires lash on ia32-libs
<alessio> well, please give me some minute, I'll be back soon
<falktx> ok
<falktx> alessio: please note that the build method has changed on the latest git
<falktx> alessio: it uses waf now
<falktx> alessio: so you'll need to create a new debian/rules
<quadrispro> falktx, sorry, some problems with my 3g connection
<quadrispro> falktx, can I switch to debhelper 7? is it a problem?
<falktx> i don't think so
<falktx> i mean, i don't think there's a problem
<falktx> do as u want
<quadrispro> ok
<quadrispro> falktx, http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/zyn.git
<quadrispro> falktx, please give a
<quadrispro> echo ".pc" >> .git/info/exclude
<quadrispro> from the sources root
<quadrispro> falktx, and remember to 'quilt pop -a' before committing
<falktx> ?
<falktx> it's ready?
<quadrispro> falktx, needs work
<quadrispro> falktx, I'm just filing an ITP bug
<quadrispro> falktx, I also adjust debian/copyright according to DEP-5 proposal
<quadrispro> falktx, please ask upstream to avoid waf...
<falktx> why?
<quadrispro> falktx, http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00714.html
<falktx> done
<falktx> nedko says it's debian fault
<falktx> the devs know ohw to use waf
<falktx> *how
<falktx> debian shouldn't try to package waf
<quadrispro> falktx, I don't want to block it, it was just a suggestion :)
<falktx> yep
<falktx> he knows now
<quadrispro> falktx, I put your name+mail_address in the Uploaders field, do you have an account on alioth?
<falktx> alioth?
<quadrispro> http://alioth.debian.org/
<quadrispro> falktx, please create an account and join the team
<falktx> hehe, firefox doesn't like it
<quadrispro> really? i'm surfing with iceweasel and getting no problem.. 
<quadrispro> falktx, after getting an account, you'll be able to commit your changes
<quadrispro> sorry, after getting an account AND joining https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pkg-multimedia/
<quadrispro> falktx, now I have to leave, see you later
<falktx> ok, bye
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-09
<abogani2> Anyone know where is persia?
<astraljava> abogani2: No idea, sorry.
<ScottL> abogani2, astraljava i believe he is on vacation until 20 june
 * ScottL is leaving for work, i'll be on in thirty minutes as scott-work
<falktx> abogani2: u there?
<abogani2> falktx: yes
<falktx> abogani2: i have a special request
<falktx> abogani2: can you package kernel 2.6.34-lowlatency?
<falktx> abogani2: please?
<abogani2> falktx: https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa
<abogani2> falktx: Right now I'm working on 2.6.35-lowlatency.
<falktx> oh, nice
<abogani2> falktx: Lucid or Maverick?
<falktx> i though 35 was going to have realtime ?
<falktx> abogani2: Lucid
<abogani2> falktx: So my PPA is right. I suggest you to wait 2.6.35.
<abogani2> falktx: No abosulately.
<abogani2> The last "no" is referred to realtime.
<falktx> abogani2:  it's just that pulse doesn't work in realtime kernels properly
<falktx> abogani2: i have to use v32
<falktx> abogani2: which has some intel graph issues
<falktx> abogani2: a lowlatency v33 or v34 will be awesome
<abogani2> falktx: If you let me give a suggestion...
<falktx> ok
<abogani2> falktx: I would avoid linux-rt as possibile.
<falktx> whh?
<falktx> why?
<abogani2> falktx: Because it can create more problems than which it resolve.
<falktx> abogani2: hmm
<abogani2> When version aren't aligned it could create an infinite series of problems.
<falktx> abogani2: i only use your kernels
<abogani2> falktx: For examples: KMS, X.org, File system etc etc.
<abogani2> falktx: My time is over.
<falktx> ok
<falktx> abogani2: let me know when 35 is ready
<abogani2> falktx: Lowlatency is made to resolve all these problems and offer good low latencies.
<abogani2> anyway
<falktx> i understand
<falktx> but the v32 kernel doesnt work right for me
<falktx> abogani2: that's why i ask for 33/34/35 lowlatency
<abogani2> falktx: You could install the maverick 2.6.35-lowlatency on Lucid.
<falktx> isn't 35 unstable right now?
<falktx> phoronix reported some big performance issues some time ago
<falktx> they are fixed by now, but we never know when it could happen again
<falktx> that's why i stick with final releases only
<falktx> he, the 2.6.35-rc2 didn't build
<falktx> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v2.6.35-rc2-maverick/BUILD.LOG
<abogani2> falktx: Seems to me the best approach.
<falktx> abogani2: should i use this one:
<abogani2> falktx: That is a ubuntu problem not upstream problem.
<falktx> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v2.6.34-lucid/
<falktx> ?
<abogani2> falktx: Try 34-lowlatency first but not enable PPA simply install the appropriate deb   for your machine with GDebi
<falktx> abogani2: where is 34-lowlatency?
<abogani2> falktx: amd64 or i386?
<falktx> amd64
<abogani2> falktx: Sorry I wrong http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v2.6.34-lucid/ seems more appropriate.
<falktx> abogani2: ok, thanks
<abogani2> falktx: you are welcome
<falktx> btw, abogani2, many thanks for your work on the kernels!
<scott-work> bitmeter is no longer showing up on the "uninstallable binaries" email from coling watons :)
<scott-work> thanks quadrispro!
<quadrispro> falktx, we need to patch zyn's sources to drop addsynth_voice.h
<falktx> quadrispro: sorry i was busy
<falktx> quadrispro: shouldn't we package the git version instead?
<quadrispro> falktx, http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/zyn.git
<falktx> quadrispro: or we're going to use v1 + patch?
<quadrispro> already in progress :)
<falktx> quadrispro: i never used git before
<falktx> quadrispro: i'm not sure how this works :(
<quadrispro> falktx, I'm working on the git release, so no patch is needed
<falktx> ok, nice
<falktx> why did you remove the build options?
<quadrispro> falktx, no longer needed
<quadrispro> falktx, please take a look http://maps.remixtj.net/unstable/pool/zyn_1+git.20100609-1/
<falktx> quadrispro: nice
<falktx> quadrispro: so it's on debian now
<quadrispro> falktx, does it work fine?
<falktx> i run 64bit
<falktx> cannot test it
<quadrispro> falktx, we could upload it to a PPA
<falktx> yep
<falktx> i can do that
<quadrispro> falktx, ok, now I adjust some debian/copyright issues, the package will be ready in 10 minutes
<falktx> i'll upload it now
<falktx> done
<falktx> if it's just the copyright u adjusted, then the build process will be the same
<falktx> btw, how i do assign to be part of the debian-multimedia team?
<falktx> i cant login in https://alioth.debian.org/account/login.php
<falktx> "Your account does not exist."
<quadrispro> falktx, sure, did you create one?
<falktx> of course
<falktx> my password is right too
<quadrispro> falktx, what's your account name?
<falktx> falkTX
<quadrispro> falktx, try appending '-guest' to your account name
<falktx> he, it says my user doesn't exist
<falktx> ha!
<quadrispro> falktx, have you already tried logging in with falktx-guest?
<falktx> it complains about not activated account, just send a confirmation now to my mail
<falktx> hopefully it will work now
<falktx> damn
<falktx> "
<falktx> Access denied
<falktx> Credentials you entered do not correspond to valid account.
<falktx> "
<falktx> this is so stupid
<falktx> i try to login and get:
<falktx> "Your account is currently pending your email confirmation. Visiting the link sent to you in this email will activate your account. If you need this email resent, please click below and a confirmation email will be sent to the email address you provided in registration. [Resend Confirmation Email] "
<falktx> clicking to get a new activating, and trying to login , i get:
<falktx> "Credentials you entered do not correspond to valid account."
<falktx> i'll try this later
<falktx> quadrispro: https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/ppa/+sourcepub/1168153/+listing-archive-extra
<falktx> quadrispro: just compiled the package here
<falktx> quadrispro: works fine!
<falktx> quadrispro: good job
<quadrispro> yyy-aaah! :)
<quadrispro> just uploaded to debian
<scott-work> quadrispro: the bitmeter fix apparently is in ubuntu now and built correctly
<quadrispro> scott-work, got it, thanks!
<scott-work> quadrispro: i am qualifying this from an email from colin watson that did not include bitmeter as an uninstallable binary :)
<scott-work> thanks again
<quadrispro> you're welcome :)
<quadrispro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskLV2Inclusion needs to be updated
<scott-work> hopefully i will adjust the seeds soon that that all the lv2 stuff will be included on the next iso build
<scott-work> and adjust the menus to include some of them as well :)
<scott-work> it feels good when Stuff Gets Done
<scott-work> yes i used capitals for that
<quadrispro> :)
<quadrispro> jackmeter and jkmeter have been accepted into Debian too
<scott-work> i've been thinking (and this reinforces it) that perhaps we need a matrix just for new applications going into Debian that we might want in Ubuntu Studio
<scott-work> this way it's documented that it's available but also to make sure we get them into the seeds and set up in the menu
<scott-work> quadrispro: have you heard of quitarix ?  several ubuntu studio users are asking for it to be included
<falktx> there are a lot of new lv2 plugins that are not in that list
<scott-work> please add them falktx if you feel we need them
<scott-work> quadrispro: sorry, that was guitarix...not quitarix
<quadrispro> scott-work, you talk about this? http://guitarix.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
<quadrispro> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=543923
<ubottu> Debian bug 543923 in wnpp "RFP: guitarix -- rock guitar amplifier for jack" [Wishlist,Open]
<falktx> i have guitarix on my ppa
<falktx> i can easily push it to revu
<falktx> but i can't login to the debian multimedia now... some crazy login error
<scott-work> quadrispro: yes, i do believe that is it :)   from what i hear it is really nice, certainly better looking than rakarrack
<irvie> are there any good sites dedicated to FOSS DAWs?
<irvie> like both hardware/software?
<irvie> (besides you guys of course ;] )
<scott-work> you can check out the opensourcemusicians website and IRC channel irvie
<scott-work> lots of people on the irc channel, many of them very, very knowledgeable
<scott-work> abogani2: do you know about -rt kernel and nvidia graphics cards on 64 bit machines?  are there any problems with them?
<abogani2> scott-work:  I don't know nothing _but_ I think that these driver are updated lately. Unfortunately I don't have anymore my 64 bit system so I can't check.
<abogani2> scott-work: If someone have problems please request him to fill a bug.
<quadrispro> ok, let's start working on guitarix
<quadrispro> falktx, where is your guitarix pkg?
<falktx> lucid ppa
<falktx> the guitarix already has a debian folder on the source
<falktx> it just needs to be tweaked
<quadrispro> falktx, sources under src/faust-cc/* miss license information
<falktx> just added more lv2 plugins to the list
<falktx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskLV2Inclusion , at the end
<falktx> quadrispro: why is this so important?
<falktx> quadrispro: the license i mean
<falktx> if a project declares that it's code is GPLv2, then the files without header, shouldn't they be considered gplv2 too?
<scott-work> abogani2: thanks for the information, i will pass it on :)
<scott-work> and i'll tell him to file a bug if he runs into problems
<irvie> scott-work: thx
<quadrispro> falktx, what do you think about this? http://gabe.is-a-geek.org/composite/
<quadrispro> it would be great getting it in time for maverick
<falktx> i don't think it's worth it
<falktx> brb
<quadrispro> why?
<quadrispro> perhaps it needs some other improvements but upstream seems to be really active
<falktx> back
<quadrispro> I have to leave, see you later!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-11
<falktx> hi guiodic
<guiodic> hi
<falktx> what is the version of your openmovieeditor?
<falktx> dpkg -l openmovieeditor
<guiodic> I installet it from your ppa
<falktx> it should be:
<falktx> 0.0.20090105-0ubuntu0+ppa8 
<guiodic>  0.0.20090105-0
<guiodic> yes 0.0.20090105-0ubuntu0+ppa8
<guiodic> I installed gmerlin-dbg
<guiodic> then
<guiodic> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
<guiodic> 0x00a91274 in bg_x11_window_start_gl (win=0x99efdb8) at x11_gl.c:151
<guiodic> 151	x11_gl.c: Nessun file o directory.
<guiodic> 	in x11_gl.c
<guiodic> but
<guiodic> I use a updated version of mesa
<falktx> from the xorg-updates ppa?
<guiodic> from "X crack" ppa
<guiodic> but
<guiodic> only the mesa libs
<guiodic> not the Xorg atc
<guiodic> *etc
<guiodic> guido@guido-metamorfosi:~$ gmerlin
<guiodic> [GL] Warning: GLX version too old: requested >= 1.3 but got 1.2
<guiodic> Segmentation fault
<falktx> mixed ppas are a problem
<falktx> guiodic: u'll have to rebuild it from source
<falktx> sudo apt-get build-dep openmovieeditor
<falktx_> sorry, went offline
<falktx_> i have to reboot
<falktx_> guiodic: add this line to the software sources:
<falktx_> deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/falk-t-j/lucid/ubuntu lucid main
<falktx_> open a terminal, create a folder and "cd" to it
<falktx_> then:
<falktx_> sudo apt-get build-dep openmovieeditor
<falktx_> apt-get source openmovieeditor
<falktx_> cd openmovieeditor*
<falktx_> debuild -rfakeroot
<falktx_> (that will create a new deb for u, install it)
<falktx_> i'll be back soon
<guiodice> well, I'm trying to rebuild gmerlin against new mesa libs
<falktx> back
<falktx> guiodice: did u rebuild the package?
<guiodice> Now I'm trying to rebuild gmerlin against new mesa libs
<falktx> oh, ok
<falktx> i have to go
<guiodice> ok
<falktx> but i'll be back in a few hours
<falktx> mail me on how it goes
<guiodice> ok, I'll send you a mail
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-12
<rlameiro> jussi: ping
<jussi> rlameiro: pong
<falktx> too late
<falktx> he's on a meering
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-13
<rlameiro> ScottL: i think i cant make it to the meeting today
<rlameiro> ScottL: i have to go to the ariport and i am not sure if i get home in time
<rlameiro> jussi: are you there?
<rlameiro> I am thinking on a implementation of the UBS controls
<rlameiro> what do you think if the controls utility, could download from a server a text file with the list of PPA we determine safe for ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> this way we wouldnt need to upgrade the package each time some PPA changes, or something new is needed to be added
<rlameiro> if so, where can i put that file? some safe place, also it sgould be GPG signed, but i dont know how, maype gziped or something
<ScottL> rlameiro, i don't think we are ready for a meeting today, i know i'm not
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> ScottL: what do you thing about the file download?
<ScottL> rlameiro, hmm, i'm not sure, i'd have to think about it
<ScottL> my first thought is that i would rather we test the ppa ourselves and then copy the build into our own ppa
<ScottL> this keeps a single ppa for user's to worry about
<ScottL> but, this does not prevent us from fixing the rtprio and memlock settings, which is actually pretty important
<rlameiro> ScottL: well, but the backpots need to have its own ppa
<rlameiro> i need to look into the rtprio stuff
<rlameiro> it needs to be added to the audio.d/config isnt it
<ScottL> rlameiro, true, but we could include one other for "extended" universe ppa (or whatever name we come up with)
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> like enable backports ppa
<rlameiro> and another with enable ubuntustudio universe team ppa
<rlameiro> or something
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
<ScottL> /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf 
<ScottL> the link provides alink to mailing list discribing it, but you seee the file also below my link
<rlameiro> yes that, misspelled it
<rlameiro> i just dont get that stuff of not adding the user to the @audio group when using PA
<ScottL> i have misgivings about enabling ppa's that we do not have control over, we cannot guarentee their quality and we would receive the bugs for them
<rlameiro> ScottL: me too
<rlameiro> I was thinking on separate ppa, just that
<rlameiro> but all controlled by the team, also the list would need to be approved by the team, but maybe its better to have just one ppa with everything
<ScottL> the way i understood dtchen's explanation, is that the active user (the one at the keyboard) has rights to the /dev/snd/* which means you have access to the @audio group
<rlameiro> i wanted to put the kernel in a diferent one, because, that way, we could warn users about the rt kernel implications
<rlameiro> even with jack?
<ScottL> you are not explicitly in the group but because you are the person logged on you access to that groups rights
<rlameiro> humm
<rlameiro> ok
<ScottL> that's a good idea about the kernel
<rlameiro> ScottL: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=12
<rlameiro> ScottL: the idea was like this, the user selects the checkbox for the kernels PPA and a Warnig box appears
<ScottL> according to dtchen, this should work, even with jack...of course there may be unforseen situations
<rlameiro> saying that you may have problems with the propietary kernels etc
<rlameiro> the things abogani explained on the mailing list
<ScottL> proprietary drivers?  instead of proprietary kernels?
<rlameiro> ScottL: when you instal the rt kernel, ussually users have some problems with the nvida and ATI propietary drivers
<rlameiro> this is a defense for us, or elese we would be swamped with bugs and complains
<ScottL> i meant that you said "saying that you may have problems with the propietary kernels etc"   but i realize you meant drivers not kernels
<rlameiro> if they want rt kernels, they should know thew caveeats
<ScottL> exactly
<rlameiro> oops, sorry fail
<rlameiro> :D
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> i'm hoping this is transitory...if preempt gets in archives and can be shipped by default, many may not want to switch because performance is acceptable
<ScottL> transitory = people wanting -rt kernels
<rlameiro> yeap, but there are still situations whwere rt kernels is better, for instance with laptops
<ScottL> my understanding is that we cannot make an -rt kernel without Igno's patch, and that leaves us in a difficult position sometimes
<rlameiro> as the mobile processor have some weard differences, with the rt you can push it to the limit
<rlameiro> ScottL: no, if we tell the user :D
<rlameiro> we are not the devs, we just try to get together the best software
<rlameiro> we are not kernel devs
<ScottL> rlameiro, i fear that most users think we work in a fantasy land and we have all the knowledge, resources, and time to make things "right" and that somehow we just choose to screw things up for select peoples
<rlameiro> the problem is that most people think that ubuntustudio makes its own kernel, and all software
<ScottL> precisely
<ScottL> "omnipotent" gods thats fail
<rlameiro> so, ubuntustudio controls could be a way to WAR users about the caveats
<rlameiro> and also ask for help
<rlameiro> it can be naggy, but yes it is needed
<ScottL> a dialogue box would be nice to tell them of the dangers and a link to an informative website would be a really good thing IMO
<rlameiro> precisely my idea
<rlameiro> with a BIG warning triangle
<ScottL> english is my native tongue and my last sentence was pretty horrible :P
<rlameiro> we also should push translation
<ScottL> maybe I should have an editor and a translator :P
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> i got you :D
<ScottL> that's why i worry about abogani and the way he gets down on himself about his english
<ScottL> i really do think he types it better than a lot of native english speakers
<rlameiro> ScottL: that is normal with us, because our native language isn't english, but we do spend most of our time reading stuff in english
<ScottL> once we get an ISO build that works i should be updating the seeds to include the new lv2 stuff and hopefully moderating the menu for them as well
<rlameiro> so sometimes qe feel that we should do better at it
<ScottL> even if something is spoken (or written) not quite correctly but the intent is understood, then that is a win
<ScottL> because sometimes even for those born in US and speak english natively, it is difficult to understand some spoken dialogue because of slang and poor word choices
<ScottL> it's not what you would call "proper english" but it gets understood the same more or less
<rlameiro> yea, true, sometimes i cant get some english expressions ou there :D
<ScottL> oh, and when we get an ISO build that installs I really want to test JACK/Pulse Audio together and see what's different
<rlameiro> ScottL: do you know another ubuntu channel for developres, besides #ubuntu-dev?
<ScottL> i do not...i wasn't even directly aware of #ubuntu-dev until now
<rlameiro> ScottL: about that,, http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=12
<rlameiro> i think we could implement it on controls
<rlameiro> as enable it or disable it
<ScottL> which part?
<rlameiro> also warning that when jack is stoped pulse crash :D
<rlameiro> the pulse/jack
<ScottL> you mean the bridge?
<rlameiro> so you can get pulse audio into jack and vice versa
<rlameiro> yeap
<ScottL> i agree, but probably not this cycle
<ScottL> i am expected to have some troubles still with maverick in terms of getting jack and pulse enabled and working in a stable manner vai dbus
<rlameiro> maybe
<ScottL> not that i have great or expansive knowledge of the subject
<ScottL> but when we change infrastructure like this it seems to have "unforeseen consequences" which take a cycle to rectify
<rlameiro> it depends on how can i make it or not
<rlameiro> i have some spare time now
<ScottL> i'm not talking about -controls
<rlameiro> i am starting to reading stuff about python-apt etc
<rlameiro> i need to make a mock-up and implement it
<ScottL> but first can we fix the rtprio and memlock situation, that is clearly defined and pretty critical
<rlameiro> also i will meet in person RNCBC in 15 days so i can ask him directly about rtirq
<ScottL> hey, that's pretty cool!
<rlameiro> ScottL: AFAIK the issue is easy to fix, just changing the file path in the python script
<rlameiro> that is the first thing i will do
<rlameiro> that and remove nice
<ScottL> rlameiro,  i would even suggest that we fix that first, test it, and then push the changes now to improve usability
<rlameiro> ScottL: should i develop it on the alpha?
<ScottL> and then worry about other improvements
<rlameiro> ScottL: for lucid?
<ScottL> you could develop on lucid i think without any problems
<rlameiro> i dont know if i can
<ScottL> you don't know if you can update -controls on lucid?
<rlameiro> the problems with rtprio came because the change was made between karmic and lucid
<rlameiro> so never was detected fixed in time
<ScottL> if you can update -controls on a lucid install, it should be able to be merged into the code for maverick and then released
<rlameiro> but, of course it can be developd in lucid, but needs testing on MM
<rlameiro> yeap
<ScottL> then an SRU can be filed to get it released into lucid still during maverick's development
<rlameiro> thats tha
<rlameiro> thats it, so we can push it to lucid also :D
<rlameiro> thats what i wanted to know :D
<ScottL> oh good :)
<ScottL> hopefully you can make the rtprio, memlock, and nice changes, they get reviewed and testing in lucid, and then an MM ISO is available to test as well
<ScottL> then we can merge the code for MM
<ScottL> afk a few minutes
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> ScottL: ok, i just removed nice from UScontrols
<ScottL> rlameiro, sorry had to finish a blog post before the family woke up    http://dullass.blogspot.com/
<ScottL> good :)
<rlameiro> i changed the file were writ the memlock, but there is already info on mine
<ScottL> rlameiro, did you just remove the code or did you comment them out?  i think i would advocate commenting them out for the time being
<rlameiro> the instllation process of jack already does some stuff, so i need to make something to check for the actuall state of the file, or it will addin one more line
<rlameiro> i removed it
<ScottL> yes, that is true
<rlameiro> but its not important
<rlameiro> its only mu branch
<ScottL> we have the old code still so it's not that big of a concern
<rlameiro> after i make a diff and commnet out the original
<ScottL> rlameiro, it's time for me to go, i have to wake up son and get him ready for us to go out into town
<rlameiro> also, there is a commented line with a nice setting /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<rlameiro> go go 
<ScottL> rlameiro,  ciao, i always enjoy talking with you
<rlameiro> have a good time
<rlameiro> mee to :D
<rlameiro> hi again
<rlameiro> ScottL: i just reconfigured jack, using $dpkg-reconfigure -p high jackd and it added memlock unlimited, and rtprio 99
<rlameiro> both to @audio
<rlameiro> so, i dont know, why do need ubuntustudio controls for the moment...
<rlameiro> besides enabling firewire
<rlameiro> crimsun_: I would love if you could clarify some things avout the audio setup at the moment
<rlameiro> as i want to push ASAP a modified version of ubuntustudio controls for the 10.04.1
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-06
<ScottL> hi abogani
 * ScottL is off towork
<ailo> scott-work, I've been having some internet problems. I should be able to connect now. I'm available for discussing the documentation this week. Did you start anything yet?
 * abogani waves all
<scott-work> hi abogani !
<scott-work> which kernel should i be looking at for testing?  the latest in /broken?
<scott-work> hi ailo, we missed you yesterday at the meeting, but nevertheless i am glad you seem to have resolve your issues
<abogani> scott-work: Yeah
<ailo> scott-work, Yeah. Sorry about that. Haven't read through it yet. I'll have a look at it
<scott-work> ailo: i am looking forward to working on the documentation.  did you want to use the outline i had created before?
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<scott-work> ailo: it's not a big deal about the meeting, not much came out that (i think) we didn't already know
<scott-work> except that jorge will not be working on the website any longer on account of life
 * scott-work learned a lesson from this situation
<ailo> scott-work, jorge's dropping out completely? What about implementing his work?
<scott-work> ailo: i'm not sure how involved he would have been during implementation, but yes practically immediately he will be needed to move on
<scott-work> he took a job in japan and thought he had several months to prepare, turned out he had less than a month to move apparently
<ailo> scott-work, I need to load the IntroTutVideos into my RAM :P. Later today I can let you know what I think. Seemed like everyone were really into jorge's work, so it would be a shame if we don't use it. 
<ailo> I read from the logs that it is to be used
<scott-work> yes, he felt it was quite functional and could still be used
<scott-work> and it remains a considerable improvement from our current site
<scott-work> i will email him today or tomorrow about getting the work from him so we can implement it
<scott-work> by the way, i pulled a few strings and got some help getting my access to our website on canonical's server
<scott-work> however, this still leaves a huge bottleneck for access
<scott-work> i will be researching hosting and thinking about our hosting needs
 * scott-work was concerned about hosting user content, but if they go the vimeo or youtube route we can link those from our website
<scott-work> i feel that with the limited access [1] to the canonical servers that if we can find a comparatively inexpensive hosting resource then we should go with hosting the site our own
<scott-work> my concern is financing the hosting, i personally do not want to be liable for this cost solely out of my own pocket
<scott-work> it seems that jorge intimated that this wouldn't be a concern so i would like to get his thoughts on this 
<scott-work> cory also apparently had some ideas in this area as well, so i would like to discuss it with him as well
<scott-work> [1] while i have access, this is not enough, and given how difficult and/or time prohibitive it is to get access, i am finding this option rather difficult
<ailo> As long as one can update the main site whenever needed, I still think having it hosted under Canonical is the best alternative.
<scott-work> ailo: let me know when you are ready to talk about the documentation, both identifying the content and the order you wish to work it
<scott-work> ailo: also, we could decide on splitting the work between us
<scott-work> sadly, i don't expect anyone else to assist, but i was going to send out an email to the -users and -devel lmailing list anyways
<falktx> hey guys
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<scott-work> holstein: thanks for chairing the meeting by the way!
<holstein> scott-work: o/
<holstein> no problem
<falktx> scott-work: did my us-menu thing got commited?
<scott-work> falktx: i don't know, but i want to explain a few things to you so you have clear expectations
<scott-work> falktx: pushing to bzr doesn't get teh package built or in the repos
<scott-work> falktx: someone (i.e. persia or TheMuso or possibly someone else) has rights to do that currently
<scott-work> falktx: but also before we do purse doing this i want to make sure we are making the right changes
<falktx> scott-work: I know, we have to open a bug report first, then make a debdiff, blah ...
<falktx> scott-work: I can make a patch... ?
<scott-work> falktx:  we don't HAVE to make a bug report, etc
<scott-work> falktx: The.Muso has regularly made necessary changes, pushed to bzr, then uploaded to the repos without bug reports
<scott-work> falktx: my immediate concern is that the changes your are proposing are the correct ones
<scott-work> falktx: is there something i can use to see what is changing?
<falktx> scott-work: as I said, I can make a patch
<falktx> give me 5 mins
<scott-work> falktx: then sure :)  i would like the patch then
<scott-work> holstein: but i still ask that we use the action command when we/someone needs to do something, this way it helps coordination and remind people of tasks that need to be accomplished
<scott-work> holstein: it will especially be helpful when creating the minutes from the meeting
<holstein> scott-work: will do
<holstein> i actually used the action command for the same reason though
<falktx> scott-work: here:
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/us-menu_xfce.patch
<falktx> use wget, firefox has utf-8 issues
<scott-work> holstein: oh, sorry then ;)  i thought you used it in a few places to just announce some items, like new applications
<holstein> the way that bot works
<holstein> http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ubuntu-meeting.20110605_1202.html
<holstein> in this log (which we dont really have a policy in place yet anyways)
<holstein> but, if you dont say 'action' it doesnt show up
<holstein> i also was doing that to kinda breeze through the topics a bit, and get them counted*
<holstein> Daviey: ping
<scott-work> holstein: OOOHHHH, that's nice :)
<scott-work> holstein: in this case, i wholeheartedly apologize for my ignorance ;)
<holstein> scott-work: nah, i agree with you
<holstein> i just went with it for that reason though
<scott-work> oh falktx, we might also wait for the menu update until we see what cory has, i'm not sure it will affect this but it might
<holstein> action *should* be just for action items
<holstein> scott-work: i'll ask daivey about how to get the mootbotuk fucntionality
<scott-work> yeah, i looked for a [NOTE] command and only saw [IDEA] holstein 
<holstein> im sure its something im not familiar with*
<holstein> mootbot-uk would spit out .html, and a moin log too
<holstein> that was VERY helpful, and looked nice, and was paste-able on the wiki's
<Daviey> holstein: o./
<holstein> Daviey: COOL
<holstein> Daviey: do you have a minute?
<Daviey> I am indeed.
<scott-work> lol
<holstein> hehe
<scott-work> anythying we can do to make it easier would be great, including getting minutes into the wiki
<Daviey> holstein: For you, i have 2 mins.
<holstein> i have a question about the bot from -meeting
<holstein> http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ubuntu-meeting.20110605_1202.html
<holstein> ^ thats the log i get
<scott-work> falktx: but i will look at the patch shortly, but i'm at work right now on a windows machine :/
<holstein> and i remember from mootbot-uk i was getting some moin? right?
<holstein> thats really nice and easy
<holstein> am i just not looking in the right place?
<Daviey> holstein: yes.. only mootbot-uk has moin output
<holstein> Daviey: DOOD, thats *so* nice
<holstein> i cant believe its not in the -meeting bot :/
<Daviey> I didn't author the moin output facility, but i'll happily take the praise by proxy.
<holstein> Daviey: :)
<holstein> well, that answers my short-term question then
<Daviey> Handy, because you are out of time :)
<holstein> Daviey: thanks o/
<scott-work> holstein: i'm hoping to go ahead and implement a header like xubuntu does: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<scott-work> i had played with this before i really would like to do this, maybe make a template that we start new pages with
<scott-work> also, you notice that if you look at the code for the wiki, it's a reference, the code itself isn't listed on each page
<scott-work> <<Include(Xubuntu/Toolbox/Menu)>><<Include(Xubuntu/Toolbox/Banner)>>
<scott-work> that's two of the headers:  the larger menu and the smaller banner
<holstein> i realize that can happen*
<holstein> in practice though...
<holstein> im still learning
<scott-work> lol, why do you keep ending sentences with an asterisk?
<scott-work> i keep waiting for the explanation at the bottom of the page :)
<holstein> *reading this message may cause headaches ;)
<scott-work> LOL
<holstein> not sure...
<holstein> its a bad habit*
<scott-work> hehehe
<holstein> its part of my using enter for punctuation problem
<scott-work> i haven't done it yet because i kept thinking about trying to find all the things we might need there without showing too much and not actually doing _anything_ in the process
<scott-work> oh, that was to be *anything* because i don't think my underscores showed up :/
<scott-work> oh, there they are, my bad
<scott-work> but i realize now that if we get something up there then we can always add or take away from it :P
<scott-work> as it is, nothing has been done up till this point
<holstein> scott-work: header-wise?
<scott-work> ailo: you up to testing abogani new kernel?  I should be by this weekend
<scott-work> holstein: yes
<scott-work> although i guess that could be an apt description of many things....trying to get it set up perfectly and not actually accomplishing anything for months and months
<holstein> eh, that could be another thing i could take on though
<holstein> not too technical
<scott-work> astraljava: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
<scott-work> this is the Xubuntu testing page that i said i would link to you
<scott-work> linux outlaws published the episode with the xfce interview in it :)
<scott-work> they used a crappy old picture of me for the show notes :(
<scott-work> http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/211
<scott-work> holstein: don't feel like you have to be the one to do the header thing, i'll help as well
<falktx> scott-work: oh, US related podcast ?
<scott-work> falktx: the linux outlaw thing?  yeah, i emailed them about ubuntu studio moving over and they wanted to interview about it
<falktx> cool
<falktx> scott-work: I see you...
<scott-work> yeah, lol
<scott-work> i told fab he choose the scrariest picture i have
<scott-work> i'm totally cuddly and huggable...really ;)
<astraljava> scott-work: Thanks, I'm on it!
<scott-work> astraljava: as some point i'd like for us to put in the wiki the differences and uses of the daily images vs. the published alpha/beta/rc images
<scott-work> as well
<scott-work> and maybe even develop some levels of testing
<scott-work> i.e. level0 might be test the iso, that is, does the iso image install and work
<scott-work> level1 - system settings, that is, does jackd work because we have the user in the audio group
<scott-work> level2 - application testing, does that latest version fix a bug
<astraljava> scott-work: I agree, it should help bring in volunteers, or at the very least help understand what parts have been tested and where we stand in the devel cycle.
<scott-work> these are just some things floating in my head
<scott-work> astraljava: oh agree, the better we document how to test then we are more likely to get people who can and will test :)
<astraljava> scott-work: That's good, all help is more than welcome, as I said, not a real tester. :D
<scott-work> astraljava: i don't think anyone really is, ailo probably has dug into testing the kernel more than anyone else at this point however
<astraljava> Right. Well, I shall do some initial preparation, and then we could have some meeting of sort, to go over the stuff and hear about people's ideas for what is missing etc.
<falktx> cya
<scott-work> i interviewed with the Linux Outlaws about ubuntu studio in general, and the xfce transition in specific:  http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/211
<scott-work> i *think* it went pretty well
<astraljava> ScottL: Coolness! Will listen to the podcast tomorrow.
<ailo_> ScottL, Sorry. Been a busy day. Got my internet working well today at least. I saw abogani's build of the new kernel, so I will install and try it. Soon time to start testing it. On the documentation, I'll need another day for it. After a quick look, it looks ok to me. I think I'll be mostly interested in the audio bit concerning system setup, hardware issues and even workflow. I would like to limit the documentation so it d
<ailo_> oesn't get too specific with some things.
<ailo_> Specific things can be covered in the wiki. It would be nice to have a page with links in alphabetical order to anything related to Ubuntu Studio
<astraljava> ailo_: I would very much appreciate your advice and views on how to document some of those from testing point of view.
<astraljava> ailo_: Also a good point, will keep that in mind.
<ailo_> astraljava, Documentation on testing?
<astraljava> ailo_: We were talking about this with Scott, that we want to have quite detailed steps of what things need to be tested in order to provide a solid and functional distribution.
<astraljava> ailo_: I will be in charge of creating such documentation. Since you have quite a lot of experience in working with these kind of multimedia distributions, your opinions would be greatly valued.
<ailo_> astraljava, I suppose I do have some experience from different things that have been a problem in the past concerning multimedia distros, but I haven't worked on a testing procedure myself. I'm sure I can contribute with a few ideas on audio orientated stuff. 
<ailo_> I know holstein has experience from recording. Ralf on the mail list seems to have some experience on some specific areas like midi
<ailo_> I myself am mostly experienced in setting up a system for realtime audio, but I don't use a big variety of software normally. I do have experience with all sorts of software on other systems, like sequencers, daws and wave editors
<ailo_> So, I know my way around audio software, just not as much on Linux as on Windows for instance
<astraljava> ailo_: Sure, well, one part of the testing will be how the system settings can be set, for instance Scott mentioned jackd settings.
<ailo_> jackd I do know my way around, so no problem ther3e
<astraljava> Cool. Well, I will at some point create a base page for the testing stuff, I'll quite possibly borrow heavily from Xubuntu. When I have something in place, I'd like to have a meeting of sort to discuss about that.
<astraljava> Create test cases, see what needs to be done in order to be confident we have a solid release coming by the end of the devel cycle.
<ailo_> From my experience with Natty so far, I think doing more testing with standard stuff like jack / pulseaudio may be a good idea
<ailo_> If there is a nice, clean testing procedure that is not too hard to complete, it would be easier to try get more people to do tests
<ailo_> So, I'm all for getting some work done on that
<astraljava> ailo_: Good to hear! Thanks. :)
<rlameiro> ScottL: Going to strat listene to your interview right now :D
<rlameiro> 6 AM???????
<rlameiro> WTF???? lol
<astraljava> Fame doesn't look at the clock, you know. :D
<rlameiro> lol
<ScottL> rlameiro, 6 am was when the interview started...
<ScottL> i actually got up a bit earlier than that
<ScottL> ailo, i'll read this in a bit after i take the dogs outside for their business ;)
<rlameiro> ScottL: man, if i were a woman I would ask you to marry me :D
<astraljava> ScottL: Cool! What kind of dogs?
<astraljava> rlameiro: He's taken.
<astraljava> rlameiro: If he weren't, I would.
<astraljava> You're next in line.
<rlameiro> yeah, I know, but one can try, cant we?
<ScottL> astraljava, we have two shih tzu's
<ailo> I usually get to walk a Samojed that likes to lick female pee off the grass. He also likes used raindeer food. Dogs are wonderful animals
<ScottL> our dogs like to eat either deer or rabbit poop...strange little buggers
<ailo> ScottL, Are you available tomorrow? I'd like to drop by then.
<ScottL> ailo, i agree that an index would be nice, i think there is a way to do this if we "tag" each wiki page with a "group" or "subgroup" or we could do it the old fashion and manual way
<ScottL> ailo, yes i will be at work tomorrow and should be available at almost any time during the day
<ailo> ScottL, Tagging should be easy enough. Seems like there's a similar system to what is used in wikipedia
<ScottL> ailo, please work on any part of the documentation that moves you and I will happily work on the rest
<ailo> Wikipedia uses categories and subcategories
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-07
<ScottL> ohhhh, wiki.ubuntu.com can be so slow and then it gives you an error sometimes, drives me nuts at times
<ScottL> <<FullSearchCached(category:CategorySpec)>>
<ScottL> replace "Spec" with whatever category name we want
<ScottL> ----
<ScottL> CategorySpec
<ScottL> replace "Spec" again
<ScottL> the first line should go on the "index" page where we want the list of wiki pages that match the category
<ScottL> place the last two lines on each individual pages that we wish to include in the category
<astraljava> ScottL: I don't think eating especially rabbit poop is that unheard of.
<astraljava> Well, for dogs, anyway. :D
<rlameiro> ScottL: nice interview :D
<ScottL> rlameiro, thank you :)
<ScottL> rlameiro, in our email did you mean that you do not have an instance of ubuntu studio installed?
<rlameiro> ScottL: i have, but in 11.10 the appearence will be diferent...
<ScottL> true, but for tutorial on how to use jack, qjackctl, ardour, or qtractor i don't think it will matter too much
<ScottL> i hope
<rlameiro> Yeap. that was i thinked after reading your mail :D
<rlameiro> the rest we can leave for later :D
<iHaku> I like this idea of the new interface with AWN.   I look forward to testing it.
<holstein> yeah, im stoked about XFCE
<iHaku> If I get this right, the theme will be slightly updated with this new release.  That I look forward to as well.
<holstein> yeah, not crazy different, but different
<iHaku> Is there any way I can help?  I can test, but I would be willing to volunteer for more.
<holstein> iHaku: sure
<holstein> are you on the mailing list?
<iHaku> I'll have to sign up for it.
<holstein> iHaku: please do
<holstein> and feel free to frequent here
<holstein> iHaku: do you have coding experience?
<iHaku> Unfortunately no.
<holstein> iHaku: no worries
<holstein> theres wiki's and testing
<holstein> lots to do really
<holstein> iHaku: can you just idle here?
<iHaku> I can.  It's a desktop.
<holstein> ScottL is the team lead
<holstein> iHaku:  welcome :)
<holstein> iHaku: ive started idling over in #xubuntu-devel too
<holstein> charlie-tca is very involved over there
<iHaku> holstein: Thank you.  I'll idle there as well.
<iHaku> I'm familiar with charlie-tca.
<holstein> iHaku: you can always hang and answer questions in #ubuntustudio too if you want
<holstein> also, #opensourcemusicians is just a nice place to be, if you're interested
<holstein> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings
<holstein> ^ i need to update the archive there
<holstein> iHaku: im off for the nite
<holstein> GN
<iHaku> holstein: Okay, thanks for the help.
<scott-work> good morning :)
<holstein> past meeting logs https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011June5
<holstein> scott-work: HEY, i should have asked you first...
<holstein> i went ahead and reserved -meeting for us regularly
<holstein> i think that worked out well, and i agree that it gives us a presence
<scott-work> holstein: oh yeah :)
<holstein> anyways, i should have ran it by you first... i was just knocking some things out
<holstein> like logs and whatever...
<scott-work> no, no...take it and run man!
<scott-work> ;)
<holstein> im not really changing anything else much
<holstein> maybe formatting a bit
<holstein> the old agenda page will be the agenda/log page
<holstein> no reason to make a new one
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings
<holstein> ^ thats where i'll link to in the calendar for the fridge
<holstein> and try and remember to keep that area cleaned up
<holstein> i think that means its only 2 wik pages to edit per meeting
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011June5  that looks good :)
<holstein> scott-work: thanks
<holstein> i wish we had mootbot-uk though
<scott-work> i've been thinking that maybe we should have a meeting every two weeks instead of every four weeks
<holstein> the output is formatted SO nice automagically
<holstein> scott-work: we can up the meetings if you want
<holstein> i was thinking/hoping there would be unoffical meetings here and there
<holstein> as needed
<holstein> like the web guys getting together
<scott-work> that might be better
<scott-work> the xubuntu guys have a meeting every week
<holstein> yeah
<scott-work> which is good for such things as development and bugs
<holstein> scott-work: growing pains are welcome here :)
<scott-work> but we dont' really do too much with bugs at this point
<scott-work> at the other stuff could happen as needed unofficially
<holstein> keeping it loose and unofficial would mean the guys that really need to meet can just meet whenever
<holstein> if we end up finding another time though
<holstein> like a weekday evening for kokito or whatever
<holstein> AH... gotta run.. BBL
<scott-work> holstein: kokito will not be working with us anymore, he is taking a job in japan and leaving practically immediately
<scott-work> kokito = jorege
<scott-work> er, jorge
<holstein> my thing got moved..
<holstein> scott-work: that sux
<scott-work> yeah
<holstein> we had some great momentum for the site going on there
<scott-work> i said that in the meeting i thought
<scott-work> his work can be used as is
<scott-work> it's already pretty functional
<scott-work> we just need to get it in place and then add stuff to it
<holstein> i think its bumpin
<holstein> looked great
<holstein> scott-work: are you thinking about putting it up soon?
<scott-work> this week i want to flesh out more thoughts about the website...
<scott-work> what should go on there
<scott-work> do you host videos or use youtube?
<scott-work> utilize wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com for most of our information or on the website?
<scott-work> and pretty soon then we could start moving it into the right direction
<scott-work> we need to also see about getting someone else access to it
<scott-work> only me and eric is not enough in my opinion
<scott-work> and it would be nice for the other person to have drupal experience, i've got only very, very little and eric has a moderate amount i believe
<holstein> i think using youtube is fine
<holstein> theres so much related content to link to and get linked from
<scott-work> i've been thinking about how we could draw new people into ubuntu studio and i think the website should be the sharp point of that effort
<scott-work> my opinion is that the website would also be nice for experienced users for certain tasks, like getting download links
<scott-work> having youtube tutorials on the website would be good as well
<scott-work> maybe even some news posts about new applications or plugins
<scott-work> or even news posts about how to use specific plugins
<holstein> a rolling blog type area
<scott-work> right
<scott-work> even just to give hints, like...using a plugin for something not expected
<scott-work> that would be something that doesn't really fit a tutorial type situation, it's just information
<holstein> also, like the OSMP guys talked about in the beginning
<holstein> getting involved and linking to LAU or whatever
<holstein> having an ubuntustudio section at an existing forum
<holstein> i can see andvantages and disadvantages
<holstein> *linuxmusicans
<holstein> exhibit A
<holstein> http://www.linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7142
<holstein> im am messaging priavately with jaaxx
<holstein> he used to work on the RT kernel with PClinuxOS (i think)
<scott-work> oh WOW, that's pretty cool
<holstein> scott-work: we'll see
<holstein> im trying to take a very friendly 'put up or shut up' approach
<holstein> it would be nice to attract someone like that though
<holstein> that could be doing backports
<holstein> and actually code maintanence or whatever
<scott-work> but unfortunately i think that some of the things they are bitching about aren't things that you or i or he can fix, if ubuntu is dorking with moving stuff...*shrug*
<scott-work> but yes, it would be nice to encourage people to help with backports
<holstein> yeah, but as we get bigger, we can influence that
<scott-work> that would be soooo nice actually ;)
<holstein> i think
<jussi> one quick wuestion, just noted on the list people talking about gdm - we are going to still use that even though ubuntu is moving to lightdm? 
<scott-work> good point
<scott-work> jussi: no, we are moving to lightdm
<scott-work> err, "good point" was pointed at holstein 
<jussi> right, someone might want to point that out to the guy who was tlaking about gdm on the list
<jussi> oh bah
<jussi> wrong list :(
 * jussi sighs and goes back to sleep
<holstein> hehe
<jussi> seems I dont read very well today
<scott-work> mentioning the website again, it would be nice to also include a section where we can list artists who use ubuntu studio
 * scott-work works up a backstory to this....
<holstein> a 'made with ubuntustudio' kind of thing
<scott-work> i was listening to ratholeradio, which is dan lynch's (of linux outlaws fame) side thing and he interviewed a guy whose been wrirting music and selling records who did it with ubuntu studio
<scott-work> i thought that was brilliant and would be a great selling point for ubuntu studio
<scott-work> holstein: exactly, but take it a bit further
<scott-work> you can check out some of his stuff:  http://music.conniptions.org/
<scott-work> it's pretty well produced and sounds good
<scott-work> i think it relfects nicely on what ubuntu studio is capable of 
<scott-work> and i think _that_ (not him in particular, but that people can use it to do stuff well) would be a great selling point
<scott-work> "it's not a toy for your bedroom...you can really do stuff with this!"
<holstein> bandcamp is great too
<holstein> BBL..
<scott-work> i think bandcamp is great too
<scott-work> but i'm just thinking that if accumulating a portfolio of good/decent artists (from a production perspective, not if we like their music) that use ubuntu studio would be a substantive and great PR move
<ailo> scott-work, I think what I would like to do is to just start working on parts of the documentation. 
<ailo> scott-work, should we just make a list of topics that we are working on, so we can see who is working on what?
<scott-work> ailo:  we could or if you clearly have a particular field you want to attend then i can maintain a different focus
<scott-work> ailo: also i was hoping to discuss some more basic structure with you
<scott-work> namely the landing page and how to organize it from there
<scott-work> my opinion was that the landing page would be pretty general with some very large headings (scope-wise) which would then lead to dedicated pages for particulars topics
<scott-work> for example, the landing page would explain that this document is to help users learn and use ubuntu studio
<ailo> I'm not fully sure about what the material will contain at this point, and I am sure new ideas will pop up during the process
<scott-work> then list some topics with generalized descriptions of what is included wiht each topic
<scott-work> like intro to ubuntu studio, installing ubuntu studio, audio tasks, video tasks, and graphical tasks
<scott-work> my larger thought was that if we can create these first pages then we can link them properly to help organize and not "loose" any pages
<ailo> Starting from the top level first might be inspirational, but I'd like to start investigating what material we need and what it will contain. 
<scott-work> sure, sure
<scott-work> i think we basically need everything at this point, i would say that we might spend more time trying to figure out what we can reuse from previous work
<scott-work> i'm guessing that you would want to focus on the kernel and audio work?
<ailo> I think I can probably work on anything, but sure. Audio / hardware.. that sort of stuff
<ailo> I think I would like to start with the hardware bit
<ailo> And installing
<ailo> scott-work, I don't mind if you do all the top level stuff. I'm happy to give you input of course
<ailo> So, I would like to do one thing at the time. For each topic I'll look through what has already been done.
<ailo> And try to resuse stuff
<ailo> reuse*
<scott-work> that sounds good
<scott-work> hopefully i will have some pages for you to hang your stuff onto
<scott-work> by this weekend
<ailo> I'll start working on hardware compatibility, minimum requirements and that sort of thing. And I'll try to finish that by this weekend
<ailo> That should be a good start
<ailo> scott-work, Have you thought more about video tutorials? I haven't investigated what already exists
<scott-work> i think we shoudl definetely try to incorporate video tutorials
<scott-work> ailo^^^
<scott-work> rlameiro was talking about this as well, although i don't know if he wants to find them or make them
<scott-work> a hardware section could also discuss the difference between usb/pci/firewire audio interfaces
<scott-work> nothing too in depth, perhaps just some basic concepts and limitations
<scott-work> i've just come back from brainstorming for a user documentation landing page and i hope to get something to you in the next few days
<ailo> I will try to gather all relevant material on the hardware bit, both audio and video
<ailo> pci, usb and firewire
<ailo> Once I have everything, I'll try to make it as simple as possible
<scott-work> ailo: one other thing i would like for us to do is to notate any pages that might be deprecated
<scott-work> i suppose we could either just notate a certain section of the page or might even put a big note at the top of the page saying that it is deprecated
<scott-work> and if we are removing a link to that page we might even consider linking it from a deprecated link page
<scott-work> found it:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Deprecated%20Ubuntu%20Studio%20Pages
<scott-work> just for archiving and so that those pages don't get "orphaned"
<scott-work> but this may be crazy talk and unnecessary
<falktx> hi there
<scott-work> falktx: there was something super important that i wanted to tell you but i forgot :(
<scott-work> probably that i'm glad your on the team and helping :)
<falktx> scott-work: oh, that's a shame
<ailo> scott-work, Seems like a smart idea to back everything up.
<scott-work> seriously though falktx, i really am glad you are helping us :D
<falktx> scott-work: ok, I though I already did
<falktx> scott-work: did the menu thing got pushed?
<scott-work> falktx: not yet, i want to wait until we see what cory comes up with first
<falktx> scott-work: what is cory working on?
<scott-work> the xfce changes and the UI changes
<falktx> nice
<scott-work> but before we push something to the bzr branch i would like to make sure it fits with where we are going
<scott-work> and that it is the right change in that context
<scott-work> ailo: this is a very, very rough idea of what i was thinking about the user documentation landing page, it's ugly right now but shows how the form could look: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
<scott-work> forget the ugly choice of colors, i just wanted something that had contrast
<scott-work> basically there's a header at top, a main body on the left/middle, and then a side bar on the right
<scott-work> rounding corners, creating space between the sections for separation can come later
<falktx> scott-work: I did not add any of my custom stuff to it, I just adapted the old menu code to be more DE compliant, just like mine
<scott-work> falktx: oh, that patch didn't do anything about the menu structure?
<falktx> scott-work: nope
<scott-work> falktx: aw shit, then we should probably get that pushed then :)
<falktx> scott-work: the only thing it changes (fixes) is kde4-rosegarden and kde4-kdenlive
<falktx> I though we should use "kde4/app" but it's "kde4-app" after all
<scott-work> i'll see about that by this weekend then
<falktx> scott-work: please do
 * scott-work has to go and pickup kids
<ailo> scott-work, I would like to change some things. Hardware compatibility should be a subtopic of installation I think. 
<falktx> scott-work: getting this pushed means my work is actually useful and being used
<scott-work> ailo: that's cool, not a problem, just fleshing it out and playing with it
<ailo> scott-work, Sure
<scott-work> falktx: your work is already usefull and being used by loads of people with kxstudio, my man ;)
<falktx> I hope so
<scott-work> falktx: OH
<scott-work> i remember now
<falktx> maybe I should check some stats...
<falktx> ?
<scott-work> i pimped you out in my interview with the linux outlaws
<falktx> really?
<falktx> I haven't heard it yet
<falktx> I was watching some LAC videos last night instead...
<scott-work> so now i've said that kxstudio was brilliant in my letter to LInux Format magazine (which they published) and now i mentioned you on LO :)
<scott-work> i'll get you a link tomorrow or later tonight
<scott-work> but i really ahve to go
<falktx> LO ?
<astraljava> Linux Outlaws?
<falktx> oh
<falktx> damn, sometimes I feel slow...
<astraljava> falktx: Lucky for you. I feel that most all the time.
<falktx> astraljava: I don't feel slow cause I have other people to compare me too... not you, of course, other people...
<mjcpk> Hi Scott
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-08
<ScottL> holstein, do you think you could help with the team report for this (really last) month?  it would be due in seven days
<holstein> ScottL: yes
<holstein> i have a couple action items to get on
<holstein> ScottL: im off tomorrow (so far)
<holstein> i'll try and get cracking on it then
<holstein> i think i'll get back too late tonite to catch you
<ScottL> holstein, great!  thank you a lot :)  i'll help as well though
 * ScottL is happy because he got pulse to work jack tonight using pulseaudio-module-jack
<ScottL> i managed to record sound from youtube via firefox via jacksink into ardour through my delta44
<crimsun> heh
<falktx_> ScottL: pulse routed to jack ?
 * falktx_ is interested on new methods
<ScottL> eh, i'm using pulseaudio-module-jack to do it
<ScottL> tonight was the first phase, just getting it working
<ScottL> now i'll try to quantify it better and see the performance
<ScottL> i'll be honest, it is apparently unusable on the onboard audio
<ScottL> but on my delta44 is seems pretty damn good so far
<ScottL> i'm curious how many people in ubuntu studio are using two audio cards
<ScottL> maybe i shoudl just disable my onboard in bios
<falktx_> ScottL: but how do you make pulse to bridge to jack?
<falktx_> pulseaudio-module-jack is the module, but you need to do something to trigger the bridge...
<ScottL> apparently jackdbus is happening now
<ScottL> i'm not really up on all the technical aspect but i'm following what david h. said basically on the -devel mailing list
<ScottL> falktx_, 
<ScottL> ^^^^
<falktx_> ScottL: well, jackdbus does not do that
<ScottL> david had said that things should "just work" now and it seems like it is
<falktx_> jackdbus simply stops/starts jack as pulseaudio demans
<ScottL> here's what i did
<ScottL> unmuted my speakers first with enyv24control :)
<ScottL> :P
<ScottL> then i installed pulseaudio-module-jack
<ScottL> restarted machine
<ScottL> started firefox, found video, and started playing it
<ScottL> using pavucontrol i made sure it was playing through delta44
<ScottL> started qjackctl
<ScottL> set jack for delta card and started jack
<ScottL> oh, when i ran pavucontrol i think i actually set the stream to go through "jacksink"
<ScottL> jack connections now show a jacksink input, routed it into ardour and recorded it
<ScottL> falktx_, and i thought pulseaudio-module-jack _was_ the bridge
<falktx_> ScottL: yes, kinda. you still need to make pulse connect to jack manually
<ScottL> falktx_, in the qjackctl connections window i made the connection between the jacksink input and the ardour track
<ScottL> falktx_, did you see what i typed last about using qjackctl to connect from jacksink to ardour?
<ScottL> is this what you are talking about?
<falktx_> ScottL: beh, forget this
<falktx_> I'm still happy with my pulse-jack thing
<falktx_> if you use jack all the time, even if not making music, it makes sense to have pulseaudio always bridged
<ScottL> falktx_,  is there still confusion on how i made the bridge?
<falktx_> my little script makes pulseaudio do that right from the login ;)
<ScottL> is there something that i'm excluding perhaps or not explaining correctly?
<falktx_> ScottL: you made the bridge when you selected the pulseaudio output as jacksink
<falktx_> that is the key
<ScottL> okay :)  good then
<ScottL> i seem to be doing it right i assume
<holstein> ScottL: your out right?
<scott-work> buenos dias
<scott-work> ailo: i made some changes to the help.ubuntu.com page mock-up:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#help.ubuntu.com%20landing%20page
<ailo> scott-work, You're working on having the whole documentation live in the wiki, right?
<ailo> I'm assuming..
<scott-work> ailo:  i am using the sandbox just to play with it until we get the correct form then it will be put into https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<scott-work> and i think all the user documentation should be located at help.ubuntu.com
<scott-work> i also think that all the developer/contributer documentation should be in wiki.ubuntu.com
<scott-work> which means that none of this will directly be located on the website (although we may see about mirroring it there)
<scott-work> does that answer your question?
 * scott-work was unsure
<ailo> scott-work, Yeah. I think it looks good. No need to have documentation on the main site then.
<ailo> I like it
<scott-work> good :)
<ailo> Then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio should really be clean and professional, right?
<scott-work> although i still would like to make a few other aesthetic changes to make it prettier and more integrated with itself
<scott-work> i would like it to be clean and professional, yes
 * scott-work worries that he isn't the right person to make it clean and professional though
<scott-work> my primary concern is making it
<scott-work> 1. contain thorough and essentially needed information for users
<scott-work> 2. make it immediate accessible via structuring without needing to hunt through pages
<scott-work> this is why i wanted to make https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio a landing page with broad links to other categories/wikis
<scott-work> hopefully no more than three clicks will lead a user to the information they need
<ailo> It makes sense
<scott-work> i think trying to squeeze all the links, especially with the inclusion of work flows, tutorial videos, etc, into the front page would be too much
<ailo> I have this 5-categories-per-level theory
<ailo> Unless it's an index, which should be ordered alphabetically or numerally
<ailo> If you have no more than 3-7 categories to choose from, you get a very nice overview of the information
<ailo> If the frontpage has 3-7 links/categories, then each of them could have either 3-7 categories/links or a full text on a subject.
<ailo> Something like that
<ailo> But, first, you need to know what the material is about and how to cagorize it. Which is a sub-category to something else and so on
<ailo> Anyway, I don't have any clear opinions on the outlay of the front page at the moment. But, I do think it's good to do some sketches and work on what is possible graphically
<ailo> And about categories/links - I'm sure there's all kinds of science for it. I base my 3-7 category amount on human perception. When we look at something, we can easily see those amounts without needing to count. It's easy to orientate.
<ailo> As for the actual categorization - I think I would like to follow other examples, like the standard Ubuntu Documentation and whatever comes to mind. It's a little chicken and the egg, though. Do you start with the categories, or do you base the categories on the material?
<ailo> I would like to start with the material that I know for sure we need.
<ailo> This way, I know exactly what I need to work on right now :)
<ailo> So, that's why I would like to start with just gathering all the material I can find on Hardware issues and installation and try to condense that into some sort of readable text.
<scott-work> ailo:  that is why i was focusing on :  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<scott-work> i wanted to identify what material or information users might need
<scott-work> granted the introduction sections probably should be moved to the website
<scott-work> this presumes that the introduction stuff would be for people who have not already decided to use or are using ubuntu studio and therefore should be on the website as an outreach program
<scott-work> ailo: please feel free to add or rearrange https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos as needed
<scott-work> i would really like to develop an organizational chart to help us with doing the documentation
 * scott-work realizes this may be an iterative process and likely to change throughout the entire process
<ailo> What is important here, I think, is to think from a non-Linux point of view when doing the front page
<ailo> Any Linux specific issues should of course be highlighted, but they might not have the same priority for a common user as for a Linux user
<scott-work> ailo:  how inovled do you want to get with non-linux topics?
<scott-work> i'm not adverse to including some helpful tips but i really didn't want to hold user's hands that haven't used linux before too much
<ailo> scott-work, It's not that I want there to be additional topics, that are non-linux. Just that the form of the documentation can easily get unfriendly towards someone who doesn't know anything about Linux
<scott-work> i was hoping that we might condense some topics that non-linux users would need and then provide links to existing documetnation
<scott-work> oh, yeah, that makes sense ailo , i understand :)
<scott-work> right, which is why i had structured the IntroTutVideo structure like i did, but i think that it's perhaps too much for the user documenation
<scott-work> ailo: do you think we should include "what is ubuntu studio" in the user documentation?
 * scott-work is second guessing himself too much
<ailo> Absolutely
<ailo> It think the documentation should be just as readable to anyone
<scott-work> ailo:  then we will include the "what is ubuntu studio" stuff in the user documentaiton
<holstein> scott-work: team reports?
<scott-work> holstein: sure
<scott-work> ailo: i don't mind doing the intial effort but i would certainly appreciate it you would proof read it afterwards
<scott-work> holstein: what do you know about team reports
<scott-work> ?
<ailo> scott-work, Of course :). I will do my best with making it readable English. I will need someone who speaks English natively to double-check, though
<holstein> well, i helped AKgraner do ours for our loco once
<holstein> its been a LONG time though
<holstein> AND, it could be differnt for us i suppose
<holstein> they are monthly too?
<holstein> ailo: i can do that
<holstein> just hit me up
<holstein> ailo: hello by the way
<ailo> hi holstein 
<holstein> scott-work: looks like we need one for april and may right?
<scott-work> holstein: probably so and yes, they are montly
<scott-work> we will also need to update the "current" one, that is, the one with current in the link
<holstein> scott-work: im making april and may stubs
 * holstein looking for current
 * scott-work is finding his links
<scott-work> main ubuntu studio team reports page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports
<scott-work> the "current" team report:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/Current
<scott-work> this shows up on the master team report page via an <<include LINK>> on that page, this way the link is always current
<holstein> AH, of course
<holstein> i was in /11/Current looking around ;)
<scott-work> apparently, this was the last one that i had worked on or finished (don't remember):  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/March
<scott-work> it's not very formatted per their instructions, it just followed a form that i derived
<scott-work> please feel free to change forms
<holstein> scott-work: where are thier instructions?
<scott-work> our TeamReports has the only instructions we were given, so reference them 
<holstein> and do we turn it in?
<scott-work> we don't as far as i know
<holstein> OK
<scott-work> they get it from the /Current one i believe
<holstein> so, its probably cool to just follow what you had goind on
<holstein> going*
<holstein> formatting-wise
<holstein> its nice and clean
<scott-work> or change it if you think something works better :)
<scott-work> holstein: did you see what i'm dorking with for the landing page for the user documentation?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#help.ubuntu.com%20landing%20page
<scott-work> ignore the colors at this point
<holstein> looking good
<holstein> i like the 2nd header there too
<scott-work> i'm still playing with the general format, including borders or not, playing with line weights, line types,
<scott-work> i think i can include the sidebar into the main body part so it doesn't seem to be so detached, but so that it just seems to contain slightly different content
<scott-work> holstein: that header was something that i was dorking with for a while, i don't like colors anymore but it's certainly a start
<scott-work> although i think we could even make it more unobstrusive be eliminating the "ubuntu studio header" area :P
<holstein> good point
<scott-work> new iteration of help.ubuntu.com page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#help.ubuntu.com%20landing%20page
<scott-work> not only did i manage to get the sidebar into the main body section i was playing around with different types of headings in the body
<scott-work> hi falktx :)
<falktx> hey
<scott-work> you are a building guy today
<falktx> building guy?
<scott-work> you've been pushing releases for kxstudio today
<scott-work> building packages :P
<falktx> yes
<falktx> lots of errors though
<falktx> I'm trying to push the latest lilv, serd, sord, suil stuff too, so qtractor 0.4.9 can be build
<falktx> also mumble+jack, which has some issues too
<falktx> it's tricky
<falktx> scott-work: sorry about those mails...
<falktx> sorry my network is just too bad, I'll be offline
<scott-work> i don't even know what lilv, serd,sord, and suil are :(
<scott-work> but the kxstudio emails don't bother me
<astraljava> o/
<scott-work> another iteration of the user documentation landing page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
<scott-work> holstein: ailo ^^^
<scott-work> give me your honest impressions and thoughts
<scott-work> tell me it sucks if that's what you think
<ailo> scott-work, I like the colors, but I don't think it's easy to read
<scott-work> ailo: do you think it is difficult to read because of the colors?  the text size? other reasons?
<scott-work> i have trouble reading the new help.ubuntu.com pages anyways because of the font or the size or the background or the combination of all three!
<scott-work> for example, this page is difficult to read without any formatting:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox/Header
<ailo> scott-work, I agree. The new Ubuntu default style is pretty poor, even after they improved it a bit
<ailo> scott-work, On your page, I think the text is not sorted. It looks like a lot of text. I think it needs bigger headings, more space, that sort of thing
<ailo> And I wouldn't mind creating a couple of more colored boxes
<scott-work> ailo: agreed, i tried using the default spacings and it doesn't really look quite organized
<scott-work> ailo: we could totally do that!
<scott-work> i would like to do that and most people have not liked it before so i shy away from it now :/
<scott-work> i did play with underlining headings and making them bolder, which was probably the best result anyways
<ailo> I think you can skip most of the text too
<ailo> At least on the front page
<ailo> Just keep the headers as links and maybe just a one line description
<ailo> Really shorten it up. Make it more compact
<ailo> Don't think we can decide on what Headers/Links there should be yet, but you could still work on the design idea
<scott-work> try it now (but i didn't remove most of the text yet)
<scott-work> ailo: most of the links are dummy links, i just added two somewhat related capitalized words together so that it would show up as a link, if you clicked it it would take to you a blank wiki page
<scott-work> ailo: but would you object to moving forward with the headers as shown?  i understand that we probably will be changing them as we progress, but at least this gives us a place to link to and from
<ailo> scott-work, It looks better now, but I would still want to ditch most of the text in favor of just keeping Topics as links
<ailo> And maybe a one-line description for each Topic
<ailo> I don't know any good examples from the top of my head, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to look around a little
<scott-work> ailo: i agree with making the descriptions short and i will
<ailo> scott-work, I think it would be nice to be able to see most of it in one window. And different topics could have different coloring perhaps
<ailo> Maybe some topics belong together?
<ailo> And then they could be in a box of it's own
<ailo> Sort of like you have done with the misc panel
<scott-work> reading backscroll
<scott-work> ailo: sorry, had people coming to my desk for a while
<scott-work> yeah, i agree that seeing it in one window would be good
<scott-work> do you think that some of the topics would belong together?
<scott-work> i'm thinking that most of the heading would be greatly diverse, unless we backed up pretty far and used very gross categorizations
<scott-work> like Info    Usage    Support
<scott-work> if we moved hardware under installation we could also move optimization under there as well
<scott-work> or we could group them together in a colored box
<scott-work> i imagine that there will be some redundancy, not necessarily of information but possibly links to that information
<scott-work> hi thomashc :)
<thomashc> hello scott-work 
<ailo> scott-work, I really don't know about the categorization yet, but I know I'd like something simple and clean. It's a help page right? It's a portal to information. I can't think further than that right now without getting a little dizzy. That's why I want to start compiling some basic material first
<astraljava> Anyone else have problems with playing flash videos with sound after the latest update? This on AMD64.
<iHaku> Did I miss any important discussions in IRC?  My connection has been out for a little while.
<ScottL> ailo_, would you like to brainstorm which pages we think we need?  we can record them on the sandbox page
<holstein> ScottL: im tied up with a few things for a bit
<holstein> but, i still should be able to knock out the reports by the weekend :)
<ScottL> ailo_, maybe then we would be able to discren a pattern and derive some headings
<ScottL> oh good, holstein  :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-09
<astraljava> Excellent. With the latest flashplugin, it no longer is detected as an audio source, and it now still even prevents other audio sources from playing. Life is grand.
<scott-work> good mornring
<scott-work> er, morning even
<scott-work> ailo_:  one thing i realized about my current headings and outline is that it is a logical process, i.e. it start with explaining what ubuntu studio is, goes through installation, and then the usage
<scott-work> i suppose this is the evolution of transition from inexperienced, ignorant non-user to experienced, knowledgable user
<ailo_> scott-work, I feel you may be putting too much focus on details concerning the front page at the moment. I'm still not sure about the categories, until I start having an understanding of what material is needed, and how it needs to be organized
<ailo_> I guess I'm starting from ground up a little
<ailo_> But, I will also be interested in the top level categorization, once I get a feel for the material
<ailo_> I just can't have any sound opinions on it yet
<scott-work> ailo_: i probably am focusing too much on the front end, i suppose that's my top-down approach to things, i really like having a plan
<scott-work> ailo_: logistical question for you then:   how are you going to develop your understanding of the material?  are you just going to surf around the wiki, are you going to make notes on paper for yourself, or even just start making wiki pages?
<scott-work> my concern is that last portion of the question; if you are making wiki pages it would be nice to have a place to put them
<ailo_> I think both approaches are right. Starting from the top means you need to adjust the top once you get to the bottom. Starting from the bottom means you need to adjust the bottom once you get to the top.
<ailo_> I will gather all my info in my own documents to begin with. Maybe on google docs?
<scott-work> that's a really good idea!
<scott-work> i am probably being way to concerned about making random wiki pages and then abandoning them
<ailo_> I wills start with those topics I know we need and just start gathering material
<scott-work> i really like structure and organization, if you can't tell :P
<scott-work> ailo_: sounds like a good plan
<scott-work> hi quadrispro 
<scott-work> any luck on the mudita24 package yet? :P
<scott-work> ailo_:  in a one sentence answer, what do you think the function of -controls should be?
<scott-work> at least for the first revision
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<falktx> hey
<ailo_> scott-work, I would like it to administer realtime privilege for users and I would also like to include the system check on startup script. Anything on top of that is extra right now
<scott-work> quadrispro: the reason i'm bugging you about it is because i was hoping to get mudita24 into oneiric for release
<astraljava> scott-work: I'll look into it during the weekend (together with the testing documentation) if Alessio is too busy.
<scott-work> astraljava: the mudita24 package?  are you involved with the debian multimedia team?  you do packaging?
<scott-work> astraljava: i ask for several reasons, firstly i didn't know that you package applications :)
<scott-work> astraljava: but also because i was hoping to get this through the debian multimedia team because we have a good chance of getting this done before the cycle is up
<scott-work> which is in contrast to REVU which does not always seem to move with alacrity, especially with niche applications
 * scott-work admits that his perception and reality are not necessarily at unity
<falktx> scott-work: there are quite some packages today too
<falktx> svn/git packages now
<holstein> scott-work: say when you want my mumble creds to test
<scott-work> falktx:  do you mean packages that you are working on?  or the ones in REVU?  or debian multimedia?
<falktx> scott-work: the ppa ones
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah I've rolled a few, but not that many here, mostly professionally.
<astraljava> scott-work: Not in any way associated with debian multimedia, but I would assume Alessio could sponsor that package.
<rlameiro> scott-work: ping
<scott-work_> rlameiro: pong
<scott-work_> that's interesting astraljava, i didn't know you had done any packaging before
<rlameiro> scott-work: I was thinking about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<scott-work_> and i do expect that it would alleviate some load from alessio and he would be quite happy to look into sponserring
<rlameiro> maybe I could try to make an intro PDF
<rlameiro> like a starting document
<scott-work_> rlameiro: i have to apologzie for monopolizing your page and doing that outline in there, it really is almost more for docuemtnation that videos
<rlameiro> scott-work_: I do love it
<scott-work_> rlameiro: anything would be better than what we have
<rlameiro> because it is really what is needed
<rlameiro> in our effort to document stuff
<rlameiro> the videos should be a complement not the end
<scott-work> absolutely!
<scott-work> rlameiro: here is my vision of this...
<rlameiro> what should i use to do that?
<rlameiro> scribus?
<scott-work> oh
<scott-work> scribus probably would be a good choice
<rlameiro> scott-work: please state your vision
<scott-work> i've never used scribus before though, although i have read about it a bit
<scott-work> my vision
<rlameiro> scott-work: maybe I will outsource it to the Libregraphics folks :D
<scott-work> the help.ubuntu.com would be mainly a wiki with words mainly and some screenshots, although it might link to a few videos, but it would pretty much follow the outline in the link you posted
<scott-work> the wiki could be independent of anything else and quite nicely help users learning about U/S and learn to use it
<scott-work> the website would be less wordy but contain fair more videos (embedded youtube videos)
<rlameiro> humm, so, the help.ubuntu.com will be used like a "first time users" page.
<rlameiro> and then when advanced stuff goes to wiki
<scott-work> well, not completely...people who want to move into qtractor might look there also even though they know how to use jack and ardour
<scott-work> the wiki would also have workflows and links to the videos as well
<rlameiro> humm
<scott-work> but i view the website and a way to pull people into U/S
<rlameiro> ok
<scott-work> but also a quick guide via the videos to help people 
<rlameiro> How much space do we have on DVD to grow?
<scott-work> the wiki would be more of documentaiton intended to help people
<scott-work> rlameiro: i believe the current image is around 1.6 or 1.7 gigs
<rlameiro> what do you thing on KDE Libs...
<scott-work> i guess to simplify my thoughts:  the wiki would be the long version of the documentation with thext and the website would be the short version with video
<rlameiro> I know its a big stretch...
<scott-work> rlameiro: i think KDE libs are very helpful for people using KDE applicatiosn :P
<scott-work> which ones are you interesting in?
<rlameiro> scott-work: i got your idea. Stream line first impression, and give oportunity to learn more afterwards
<scott-work> you might be surprised that we already ship some
<rlameiro> we ship qt ones
<rlameiro> I was thinking on KDEnlive
<scott-work> we ship kde also though and i'm not sure wwhere they are coming from ufnortunatly
<scott-work> rlameiro: do you prefer it over openshot?
<scott-work> openshot is quite functional currently
<scott-work> look here are search for "KDE": http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/oneiric/daily-20110609.log
<rlameiro> yes i know, but Kdenlive is much more near professional editors
<rlameiro> and not everybody wants or can do it in blender
<rlameiro> it was just a thought tough
<scott-work> hehe, you knew i would say something about blender, huh ;)
<scott-work> it's not a bad thought at all...i tell you what, during this cycle i will play with kdenlive more and give it a good shake
<scott-work> i have need to make some short form videos this cycle and i'll use kdenlive
<scott-work> i need to add it to my list of things to do and probably need to reprioritize a few items
<rlameiro> that is our problem
<rlameiro> we lack people on video and graphics workflows...
<rlameiro> as you stated on the lo interview
<rlameiro> ....
<scott-work> rlameiro: it would be interesting to update the seeds and see how much more it pulls in as well, even if we don't use it, just to get a baseline of how things could change
<rlameiro> audio isnt a problem for our current team
<scott-work> rlameiro: i'm going to hit fab up because he said he would help somemore, i'll guide him through it
<scott-work> and i'll do some blogging and maybe send a few other emails out and around
<scott-work> i've got fedore design suite to play with also and see what they offer
<scott-work> and i'll probably ask the libre graphics people again
<rlameiro> Maybe hit the guy that makes TWIL
<scott-work> but i'll only ask about what tasks they routinely do
<scott-work> rlameiro: good idea
<rlameiro> do you know ?
<rlameiro> he does a lot of video
<rlameiro> maybe it could be nice :D
<scott-work> i don't know him but i'm not afraid to ask him :)
<rlameiro> I will try to hit him
<rlameiro> nice
<rlameiro> 2 better than one
<scott-work> i need to go and pick kids up...see you in about 1.5 hours as ScottL
<rlameiro> and having the project leader hit him could mean a lot :D
<scott-work> true :)
<rlameiro> cya :D
<scott-work> maybe we can get everyone to email him..that will really make an impact :P
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> good idea
<scott-work> bye
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-10
<ScottL> weee
 * TheMuso fixes studio installability issue.
<ScottL> which issues are those TheMuso ?
<TheMuso> The issue that gets emailed to the dev list daily, where ubuntustudio-generation is not installable.
 * TheMuso is about to send a message about that to the dev list.
 * holstein thanks TheMuso :)
<TheMuso> Downside is that you lose gcdmaster.
<ScottL> TheMuso, persia thought it might held up in a queue somehow
<holstein> how far gone?
<ScottL> TheMuso, can you explain why it wasn't working correctly?
<holstein> well, its been broken for a while, but we need something like that
<ScottL> gcdmaster and cdrdao are both built from the same source
<holstein> a cd architect type thing
<persia> Hrm?  I said there were lots of reasons and someone should investigate, rather than just waiting.
<ScottL> oh, i misunderstood then, my apologies
<persia> Or I was unclear.  Sorry.
<ScottL> i'm still confused why gcdmaster wouldn't be installable however and would be curious to learn how it wasn't working
<persia> Presumably it's still not working, so you could test in an oneiric chroot/vm.
<persia> `aptitude why-not ${PACKAGE}` sometimes explains.
<TheMuso> gcdmaster is not installable because gcdmaster is built from cdrdao source, and the latest cdrdao upload gets rid of the gcdmaster package, and the gcdmaster package has a hard build dependency on cdrdao.
<TheMuso> Hard runtime dependency even, requiring exact versioning.
<TheMuso> I explained in more detail in an email to the dev list.
<holstein> i would love to be able to step up and maintain it
<holstein> i bet i could talk falk into maintaining it
<TheMuso> Its written in C++.
<holstein> is that good?
<ScottL> TheMuso, i would presume that the fix is to patch the control file to remove the versioned dependency?
<TheMuso> ScottL: No, thats not correct.
<TheMuso> The fix is to fix gcdmaster to not depend on the legacy libraries.
<TheMuso> As I said in the mail.
<holstein> yeah, gnome2 is going away
<ScottL> right, i should read the email...soryy :)
<ScottL> oh, i didn't realize it was a gnome2 dependency
<ScottL> read the email now
<ScottL> falktx, say something
<falktx> hey what?
<ScottL> oh darn, this was the wrong channel, i was trying to get you to trigger thelonious in #opensourcemusicians :P
<falktx> oh
<falktx> ScottL: I replaced applications.menu with only the <remove> stuff
<falktx> ScottL: then I added a new file, ubuntustudio-multimedia.menu, which has also the <remove> stuff with <insert> apps too
<ScottL> why do we need the <remove> stuff in both .menu files?
<ScottL> and can you explain why this is better than what we have?
<ScottL> sorry, i admit that i'm actually ignorant about a lot of the menu
<ScottL> falktx, ^^^
<falktx> ScottL: we need this way in order to support all DEs
<falktx> ScottL: the current US way is wrong and was only working on Gnome
<falktx> s/was/is
<ScottL> falktx, okay, _that_ i can wrap my head around
<ScottL> lol "we're doing it wrong" ;)
<falktx> ScottL: well, the current implementation copies gnome's application.menu file and hacks it
<falktx> the proper way is to have a file in /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/
<falktx> that's how wine does and does it well
<ScottL> falktx, is there a place in the freedesktop.org website that you learned this from?  i wish to learn more about menus
<falktx> ScottL: I basically learned from a lot of testing, the freedesktop.org website is a mess... :(
<ScottL> well that's kinda sad considering they are suppossed to define the convention or standard
<ScottL> falktx, did you remove the extra applicaitons?
<falktx> anyway, my little patch creates a specific US file in /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/ (which should be enough), then add some additional <removes> in other places to handle gnome and xfce
<ScottL> sorry, cooking late dinner for me and kids
<falktx> ScottL: i hope this is clear enough
<ScottL> falktx, i'll look at it and ask more questions if necessary
<ScottL> falktx,  but i really will try to look at it tonight
<falktx> thanks
<ScottL> falktx, that patch you linked on sunday, is that against the current u/s-menu?  version 0.32 or whatever?
<falktx> ScottL: yes
<falktx> I mean, latest code
<ScottL> right, okay
<scott-upstairs> falktx, how can i tell if this menu is really installed when i still have ubuntustudi-menu still installed?
<scott-upstairs> i'm surprised you are still up, aren't you like +6 hours from me?
<scott-upstairs> you may not be anymore
<falktx> 4h15 am here
<falktx> scott-upstairs: the menu structure is not changed, so you won't notice unless you use xfce
<scott-upstairs> so if i was on xfce and installed ubuntustudio-menu it would be borked?
<scott-upstairs> but your menu would work good?
 * scott-upstairs can see that your files installed so i know it _is_ installed
<scott-upstairs> but i'm on default ubuntustudio natty at the moments as well
<falktx> hm?
<scott-upstairs> sorry, that was two thoughts across for lines of text
<scott-upstairs> i know that your menu installed because i can see the files under /usr/share/desktop-directories
<scott-upstairs> "you won't notice unless you use xfce" you said
<scott-upstairs> so, if i was running an xfce install (which i have but not on right now) and install ubuntustudio-menu it would look bad or be wrong somehow?
<scott-upstairs> but if on xfce i installed your menu then it would look or perform correctly?
 * falktx assumes "my menu" means US menu + patch
<falktx> scott-upstairs: xfce multimedia stuff goes into the audio/video menu, but are not removed from the main multimedia menu
<scott-upstairs> yes, that is what i meant, but really i just installed using your .deb file you linked
<falktx> for example, ardour is shown in multimedia and multimedia/audio
<falktx> scott-upstairs: oh, that old deb file?
<falktx> scott-upstairs: that deb will "replace" the US-menu
<scott-upstairs> uhhh, yeah.  should i not have used it?
<scott-upstairs> oh, that's all i could find from the meeting :/
<falktx> scott-upstairs: that old deb is not working currently
<falktx> I updated my kx menu shortly to fix the xfce menu
<scott-upstairs> it looked like it did but i don't have a multimedia menu
<scott-upstairs> ack
<falktx> you should remove it...
<scott-upstairs> after installing that deb the menu looked the same but i could find installed files
<scott-upstairs> right, will do that now
<scott-upstairs> do you have a patch handy then?
<scott-upstairs> to upgrade the ubuntustudio-menu that is
<falktx> it's still the same file
<falktx> scott-upstairs: you should get the latest us-menu code, patch it and rebuild the deb
<scott-upstairs> how do i patch the us-menu source from your .deb then?
<falktx> scott-upstairs: err, forget the deb
<falktx> scott-upstairs: do you still have the link to the patch I sent you?
<scott-upstairs> sorry, i'm tired, so a little slow perhaps...when did you send me the link?  was it in email?
<falktx> no, here IRC
<falktx> let me get it again
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/us-menu_xfce.patch
<scott-upstairs> did you post in the #ubuntustudio-devel channel because i looked twice and did not see it #ubuntu-meeting :/
<falktx> scott-upstairs: that patch was not made in the meeting but after
<falktx> I did not had the code at that time, I only worked on time the next day
<falktx> scott-upstairs: I sent that link to you some days ago, I guess you forgot...
<falktx> but it's ok
<scott-upstairs> i remembered there was a link, i just thought it was the one from the meeting though
<falktx> nope
<scott-upstairs> maybe it was in -devel in the next day or whenever
<scott-upstairs> either way, i saved it and sent the link to myself in gmail
<scott-upstairs> now i defintely have it
<scott-upstairs> later (not tonight) i'll boot into xfce and build the menu with the patch and test it out
<scott-upstairs> how borked is the u/s-menu without the patch?
<scott-upstairs> is that what you meant the ardour is in two places, i.e. audio/vidoe menu and multimedia menu?
<falktx> scott-upstairs: just as I described, ^ yes
<scott-upstairs> okay, got it
<scott-upstairs> i'll test is tomorrow night and hopefully push it this weekend then
<falktx> thanks
<scott-upstairs> wife's home now, gotta go
<scott-upstairs> thanks falkx
 * ckontros waves.
 * ckontros "Pushed up to revision 78." for ubuntustudio-default-settings. Gonna try to get one of the Xubuntu guys to review this.
<ckontros> \m/
<Izo> Ola.
<ckontros> Yo.
<ckontros> ScotLt: 'round?
<ckontros> Izo: Hopefully a little real-time might help focus things a little. ;)
<ckontros> Grr... *ScottL ^^^ (i cant type)
<Izo> Indeed! Such as, what does "wallpaper feels rigid in its etched part" mean? =D
<ckontros> Izo, Well the HP walls feel like its color flowing in the wind. Over the bg.
<scott-work> hi ckontros Izo 
 * scott-work is checking irc logs see what he missed
<ckontros> Nothing really.
<Izo> Hi scott-wor =]
<scott-work> cool
<scott-work> are we talking about wallpaper?
<Izo> The problem of definition here, I feel, is that you desire something airey and light, and ALSO something etched.
<ckontros> Si
<Izo> This is tricky. 
<scott-work> using obscure words here, but can the etching be sublte?
<ckontros> Izo: Yes, and yes. Art totally sucks. :P
<scott-work> rather than a "deep" etching with lots of shadow to denote depth, can it be "shallower"
<Izo> Aaahhhh, now I'm beginning to understand. 
<Izo> Hmm...
<scott-work> again, vague, unspecific words do denote a concept
<scott-work> s/do/to
<scott-work> ckontros: if this isn't what you envisioned please tell me to shut up ;)
<ckontros> scott-work & Izo: Or, have that fine etched patter as a bg and some kinda color flowing over top?
<ckontros> I mean, I don't wanna directly copy it, but have a similar feel.
<scott-work> i had a thought....
<Izo> OK, so perhaps...
<Izo> A textured background, with freeflowing swirls.
<Izo> Perhaps. 
<scott-work> can we keep the river bit through the middle, but in the lower right corner make the ubuntu studio CoF slightly etched
<Izo> scott-work: Could do that. 
<ckontros> Izo: And really, if you wanna say: "Here, use this for a bit and I'll keep tinkering and make some killer shit later." I'm cool with that.
<scott-work> and the CoF would perhaps either be a darker or lighter color than the background
<scott-work> i wouldn't want the CoF to be obstrusive, just there if you look at it
<ckontros> Scott-work: If we use a COF it will only be in LightDM, then dissappear once the wallpaper is loaded.
<scott-work> we have had backgrounds before that were so busy that i couldn't see my icons on them and the first thing i did was change it to a dark, solid colour
<scott-work> ckontros: oh, you don't want the CoF or perhaps the works "Ubuntu Studio" somewhere on the desktop, even unobstrusively?
<scott-work> Or the letters "U" and "S" intertwined somewhow
<scott-work> _some_ branding on the wallpaper?
<Izo> I was given to understand that an US branding on the wallpaper was a no-no. 
<ckontros> I generally steer clear from it if I can. Dont wanna be "brand-heavy".
<scott-work> it's cory's call, he's art director ;)
<ckontros> But, I'm flexiable for the right look. It would have to be tasteful and fix some technical perimeters.
<scott-work> ckontros: that's why i was suggesting the lightly etched or perhaps faded is a better word...something that doesn't demand attention but you kinda "see" it
<Izo> Sure thing. 
<scott-work> and also positioned away from center focus
<scott-work> but i'm good without it all too, that was just something i envisioned
<ckontros> "technical perimeters" being: A 2560x1600 wall is 16:10. So when the wall is cropped to say 4:3 you can chop off the logo.
<Izo> I note that a lot of those HP wallpapers ckontros linked me to featured the HP logo, but largely off to the right-hand side. 
<Izo> As an example. 
<ckontros> And the composition would still have to feel natural. TV shows do this.
<ckontros> Izo: Yes.
<scott-work> ckontros: i would like to suggest that we might ship other wallpapers that Izo has done as well
<ckontros> Note that my branding use personally is contradictory though. For the distro it should be subtle. I made this for my personal use: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserContributed?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntustudio_carbon.png
<Izo> Yeah I agree that the distro default should be subtle, classy and refined, rather than "OMG YOU'RE USING UBUNTU STUDIO CHECK IT OUT DAWG!"
<ckontros> ;)
<ckontros> I just used the carbon fiber texture for GDM and the logo came in on desktop load.
<ckontros> If wanted for any references: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork
<Izo> Righto, I have a better idea of what to go for now. I have a couple of spare hours free this arvo, in between all the OTHER work I'm also doing, so should be able to knock a better proof of concept. =]
<ckontros> Izo: And we greatly appreciate it. Now we need to find someone to take over the website development. As our guy is moving to Japan and will have no time. :(
<Izo> Eeesh, major bummer. 
<ckontros> Yeah
<scott-work> lol Izo "OMG..."
<ckontros> Izo: Music-wise, this is me: http://www.last.fm/user/_MMA_ :)
<ckontros> scott-work: When does charlie usually pop in?
<Izo> ckontros: Ah-haaa, most excellent. =] This is the band I'm in -> http://stitchthread.bandcamp.com/
<scott-work> ckontros: i did an interview on Linux Outlaws and i'm getting emails about helping include at least one for website, i've already responded saying that we would like help two days ago, but no answer yet
<scott-work> ckontros: he usually gets in around nine-ish almost everyday
<ckontros> Bandcamp. Nice. I spent 8 hours on there last weekend. It was sick. So much downloading. :P Gotta love FLAC. \m/
<Izo> Pretty much all of our stuff is free to download. =]
<scott-work> Izo: i'll check that out, it is metal? or hardcore?
<ckontros> scott-work: Oh hell. I didnt see him pop in. :)
<scott-work> hah....
 * ckontros clicks Izo's link.
<Izo> scott-work: Kinda doomy, ambient post-metal with proggy twinges here and there. =]
<ckontros> charlie-tca: Is mr-pouit in xubuntu-devel atm? Or, should I just email him?
<charlie-tca> email him
 * scott-work spent yesterday listening to depeche mode on youtube
<charlie-tca> He has a really bad irc connection these days, up to 5 minutes lag time
 * scott-work will probably spend today with slipknot though
<ckontros> charlie-tca: Can you give me a preferred email addy?
<charlie-tca> let me find it
<ckontros> ty
<ckontros> Izo: What do you play?
<Izo> ckontros: Drums all the way. 
<ckontros> Nice. I plan on buying my son a set this year. :)
<Izo> Eeeeeexcellent.
<ckontros> scott-work & Izo:Check out these guys: http://cloudkicker.bandcamp.com and http://reno.bandcamp.com
<Izo> Cloudkicker is awesome, will have to check out Reno. 
<ckontros> Yeah. "Beacons" grabbed me right away.
<ckontros> Gotta buy the CDs.
<charlie-tca> ckontros: the one he gives us is mrpouit AT ubuntu.com
<ckontros> scott-work: Remember me talking about that donation to help the AWN guys get some work done?
<ckontros> charlie-tca: Thanx
<charlie-tca> no problem
<scott-work> ckontros: sort of
<scott-work> Izo: do you do any recording?  i _always_ need drums ;)
<scott-work> ckontros: i just sketched something i want to send to you...it's a branding thingie
<Izo> scott-work: Don't have any recording equipment of my own, unfortunately. 
<ckontros> scott-work: Well, we need them to sort some depends work (thought we might be able to block things with a blacklist. hows that coming?) and add support for the XFCE menu in their menu plugin. So I asked if a donation would help. Always thats a yes. The guy I talked to said things would get done this cycle anyway as things I mentioned were already in the works. But Id like it done sooner than later.
<ckontros> scott-work: Send it when you can.
<ckontros> scott-work: And if you need a drummer, I got one if you can pay for it. ;) I know a guy that was in Dying Fetus, Chimaira, Daath, Six Feet Under. He's a hired gun basically.
<scott-work> ckontros: email sent and this is me:  http://www.cirruscomms.com.au/~stuzz78/oggs/scottl-shit_for_brains.ogg
<scott-work> not me on drums, but on everything else
<ckontros> scott-work: Post the image to imageshack or something so Izo can see this here.
<ckontros> scott-work: Vocals are too hot.
<scott-work> ckontros:  two things; i've not figured out how to do my vocals yet, i'm still learning the engineering and my voice
<ckontros> I like the guitar tone.
<Izo> Pretty rocking riff. 
<scott-work> second, i'm redoing all my parts since i got decent drums done
<scott-work> ckontros:  the vocals are part of why i want mudita24 in the repos
<scott-work> i realized that i had the input quite hot in envy24control because they don't have an gradation on the meter
<ckontros> Gotcha. :)
<ckontros> scott-work: re: logo. I'd loop the last "U" through the "O".
<ckontros> And things like this I'd totally add to our wallpaper pack but not for default.
 * scott-work is still working on getting image into imagebin
<ckontros> np
<scott-work> http://imagebin.org/157679
<scott-work> sorry, had to convert pdf to png with inkscape
<scott-work> and i don't have all my usual tools on my work computer
<scott-work> which is windows....ewwww
<ckontros> :P
<scott-work> anyway, if this becomes some sort of alternate branding then we could even just us the "U" and "S" intertwined in some places as well
<scott-work> just a thought
<ckontros> "Officially" we should stick with the 2 already uploaded to the wiki.
<scott-work> that's cool, either way, as i come up with ideas i'll keep shooting them out
<scott-work> but it might inspire someone else with actual talent like Izo 
<ckontros> ;)
<scott-work> but if things lined up well between now and the end of the cycle we could even try reinventing the branding since we are basically reinventing the UI and desktop
<Izo> Hmmm... I understand the idea behind that logo, but in actuality I don't think it would work. For a start, when you overlap letters and words, scalability becomes a problem. 
<scott-work> if not, that's cool too
<scott-work> Izo: okay
<Izo> You then have to consider how it would work in monochrome. 
<Izo> You can duplicate this overlapping effect in colours absolutely fine, though it would suffer at smaller sizes. 
<scott-work> Izo: what about if it were "etched" with one of the words a "deeper" etch?
<ckontros> *New examples uploaded: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric (not that it matters. nobody looks at all the info i generate anyway) :P
<Izo> But in monochrome, unless you introduce clever spacing between the overlapped characters, you obfuscate the legibility of the logo. 
<scott-work> ckontros: i started looking at falktx's patch for the menu, he explained that our menu hack currently doesn't work properly on xfce but the patch fixes this
<scott-work> isntall
<Izo> scott-work: Again, I see what you mean, but a logo has to, right from the start, work in pure black and white. If it doesn't, know amount of colour or texture will save it. =]
<scott-work> i should test it over the weekend in an xfce instal
<ckontros> scott-work: Ill start a VM.
<scott-work> Izo: lol, okay...i didn't really know about that but it's good to know
<scott-work> Izo: i'm really not a graphic design guy and pretty ignorant about such things
<scott-work> but any rule of thumb that helps is welcome :)
<Izo> No worries. =] Please don't take my words as any kind of personal attack, btw. 
<scott-work> oh, no...i'm good
<ckontros> Ya gotta keep in mind stuff like this: http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/result/640-1.png
<scott-work> cory's told me my work has sucked before and i still like him ;)
<ckontros> :P
<ckontros> Old example but one that sticks with me: http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/result
<scott-work> and to be honest, some of it has :P  (i remember my first interation fo the website mockup)
<Izo> ckontros is on the money, the full FreeBSD logo may have glosses and shizzle all over it, but it was built originally in black and white and still works. 
<scott-work> that first bds link looks shit hot
<scott-work> i really like the one that is all black
<scott-work> very bottom, second column from the right
<ckontros> Yeah. Is how more of the free software world should work.
<Izo> The FOSS world definitely needs a better sense of design. 
<ckontros> scott-work: Izo and Troy would get along. :P
<scott-work> i think so!
<scott-work> ckontros: do you have a link to falktx's xfce menu patch?
<scott-work> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/us-menu_xfce.patch
<ckontros> 1 sec
<ckontros> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/us.tar.gz But he made a change.
<ckontros> It needs a simlink.
<ckontros> "falktx: applications.menu (which goes to /usr/share/ubuntustudio-menu/menus/), needs a symlink to xfce-applications.menu"
<Izo> Right then, I'd be get some work done. 
<ckontros> Izo: Thanx man.
<Izo> 'salright. =]
<scott-work> i guess we're done :P
<ckontros> That wasn't the minimize button. :P
<ckontros> Ok. I gotta run out for a few. BBS.
<scott-work> ckontros:  to be forthcoming, i forgot about the blacklisting in the seeds
<scott-work> do we think we are going to get help from the AWN developers for the dependencies or should i go ahead and start pursuing this?
<abogani> paultag: ping
<ckontros> scott-work: We'll wait. 1) we'll get the switch to XFCE done. 2) Set up 1-panel UI. 3) Switch to AWN UI and add AWN to seeds.
<scott-work> ckontros:  i think practically everything needs to wait until we switch to xfce
<paultag> abogani: pong
<paultag> abogani: what can I do for you?
<scott-work> hi paultag 
<paultag> heyya scott-work 
<scott-work> abogani: i should be testing your kernel this weekend (really!  i promise!)
<abogani> paultag: Where could I find ready to use packages for Flux?
<abogani> scott-work: No problem :-)
<paultag> abogani: woohoo, for what platform? What sort of goodies?
<paultag> abogani: the one in oniric should be in sync, 1.3.1~dfsg1-2 ish
<paultag> (ubuntu and debian are almost identical, save a build-time change of the default theme)
<abogani> paultag: Ok, good. Do you know something about Fluxbuntu?
<paultag> abogani: yeah, I do, what's up?
<ckontros> Wow. Im shocked its still active.
<paultag> ckontros: it's sorta kinda not
<paultag> ckontros: they're working on it, but I think it's stalled
<holstein> ckontros: i was wondering if a differnt front-end could be added to K3B?
<holstein> that answer is no?
<ckontros> Is Joe still involved/hanging around?
<paultag> ckontros: yeah
<ckontros> Ahh...
<paultag> ckontros: but he was hella idle the last few years
<ckontros> holstein: I dont think its the best idea.
<abogani> paultag: How can I install it? Website seems terribly oold...
<paultag> abogani: fluxbox?
<holstein> i was thinking of it in a duplication of efforts sense
<ckontros> abogani: I think you'd be better off just installing Fluxbox.
<abogani> paultag: Fluxbuntu
<paultag> abogani: yeah don't install that
<holstein> if we have something that pulls in KDE for the UI only
<paultag> abogani: it's way old and out of date, just install fluxbox
<paultag> abogani: combine that with fbautostart and some gnome tools, and you'll be fine
<abogani> It seems not enough for me...
<paultag> abogani: what's wrong with that?
<abogani> replace wm only don't resolve all my issues.
<paultag> abogani: then what makes you think fluxbuntu is better?
<paultag> it's just an ubuntu fork with fluxbox defaults and some deps dropped
<paultag> abogani: if you're that scrunched for cycles, install debian and work it up :)
<abogani> Exactly what I want: "ust an ubuntu fork with fluxbox defaults and some deps dropped"
 * ckontros does Ubuntu CLI installs and works up. :P
 * abogani is too lazy for do that
<ckontros> hehe
<paultag> abogani: are you that squashed for hard drive space?
<paultag> abogani: you know it won't change RAM or CPU usage
<ckontros> holstein: But really, I have to watch it because this should be Scotts call. I gotta just sop chiming in.
<ckontros> *stop
<holstein> ckontros: ?
<holstein> you mean K3B?
<ckontros> holsteYep
<ckontros> gah. I cant type
<ckontros> holstein: Correct
<holstein> well, it was hypothetical
<scott-work> ckontros: holstein: are you talking about the gcdmaster business?   can we get falktx on it, he's a -dev now ;)
<holstein> im sure its got those KDE depends for more than the UI now that i think about it
<holstein> scott-work: i asked falk, and he told me K3B was the tool for the job :/
<ckontros> scott-work: You know you cant count on that. :) Getting him to do little thinngs like the menu is the best way we can use him.
<holstein> he didnt say 'i dont want to fix that', he just said 'K3b does that'
<ckontros> holstein: Think of his POV though. He does a distro that use it. I would worry about depends and the fact that it duplicates a large part of current functionality just to get 1 feature.
<holstein> ckontros: i like the idea of a new app
 * abogani 'll try L/Xubuntu ...
<ckontros> holstein: It will need a project lead. I can help you with that. :) (but I cant be that guy)
<abogani> paultag: Thanks anyway
<holstein> ckontros: i can give it a go, but someone on the list seemed to want to take the lead right?
 * holstein looking at the thread
<holstein> i got a little distracted by Ralph again....
<ckontros> hehe
<holstein> yeah, Janne Jokitalo
<ckontros> Yeah. "astraljava"
<scott-work> i agree that k3b probably shouldn't be pursued unless other alternatives are non-viable
<holstein> astraljava: COOL
<scott-work> but let astraljava work on mudita24 first ;)   (if he is going to do it)
<ckontros> Its a shame because its a nice app.
<holstein> well, this is not a deal breaker
<holstein> we need to get it fixed or replaced in the long term though
<ckontros> We'll need to have someone grab the code to see what language it is. If its C, Luis is the only C coder I know.
<scott-work> but i don't think k3b is a 1:1 replacement for gcdmaster, didn't gcdmaster do red book masters?
<holstein> scott-work: thats what i want to know
<holstein> i dont remember k3b having that functionality
<scott-work> and has anyone tried contacting the upstream uather
<ckontros> scott-work: Yeah. CD-TEXT and all that.
<holstein> i didnt have time to get into it with falk when i was asking him
<ckontros> scott-work: We should start there. Last release was '06. :(
<scott-work> yeah, gcdmaster does red book, i found the 64studio page i was looking for:  http://www.64studio.com/manual/audio/ardour/cdmarkers
<holstein> yeah, i used it in 64studio
<scott-work> good page by the way...we should totatlly steal it
<holstein> worked great... its been broken though AFAIK
 * ckontros looks the other way...
<scott-work> lol
<ckontros> brb
<scott-work> just like i mentioned to falktx about paying a bounty for getting us the live image building script, i think i might be able to afford a bounty for fixing gcdmaster possibly
<holstein> i'll through falk some cash
<holstein> scott-work: when you get a minute, i think i have all the pages made (team reports)
<holstein> let me link what i have in the works, and tell me if im on the right track
<scott-work> ckontros: while you were gone i mentioned that i had already told falk that i would pay a bounty if we would work up a script for us to make a live image of a ubuntu studio install
<holstein> then, i'll dial in the actual info....
<scott-work> ckontros: and i mentioned that i could possibly afford another bounty if he fixes gcdmaster
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/Current of course
<scott-work> holstein: i can look at it this afternoon :)
<holstein> yeah, whenever... no hurry
<scott-work> and i'll add anything else that i can think of as well
<scott-work> i'm really interested in the script for building live images from installs
<ckontros> scott-work: Ok. You're the boss.
<scott-work> not only could this give us an "unofficial" live image for our default installation but it furthers a project that i want to follow
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/March is where we were
<holstein> theres https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/April now
<holstein> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/May
<scott-work> which is to make a cd size, jack based, no pulse audio, audio focused distro
<scott-work> cool, thanks holstein  :)   that's a huge help
<holstein> and i made https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/June to point Current at
<holstein> scott-work: thats the way it works right? or should current be point at May?
<ckontros> scott-work: Ok... But really, it should *only* be for testing. Official images should come through the normal build system.
<holstein> when 'release development' is referenced, im point at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Oneiric Ocelot (11.10) now
<holstein> pointing*
<scott-work> ckontros: right, strictly unofficial!  "community supported" as it were
<scott-work> i'm not sure, but here is my reasoning:  they ask for them by the 10th or 15th of the next month, so....
<scott-work> i view the current as the month we just completed
<holstein> im going to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports as well
<scott-work> and also because there's probably not much to show for the current
<scott-work> holstein: absolutely
<holstein> seems like <<FullSearchCached(title:UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11)>> is not picking up the ones i just made
<holstein> 11/April /May and /June :/
<scott-work> holstein: you might look at what others are doing as well to see what is "current" :  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<scott-work> holstein: also feel free to add your name or replace my name here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
<ckontros> *Totally* OT: New South Park is awesome. :P
<holstein> ckontros: hehe, i like that one with the giant router that gets reset
<scott-work> i think that a cd sized, jack based, no pulse audio, audio focused distro based on ubuntu studio using xfce with the new UI would be an aweseome calling card to new users!
<scott-work> hell, i might even set up a booth in front of the local hastings or book store and showcase ti
<scott-work> it
<holstein> yeah, i'll add my name, so folks know who to blame ;)
<scott-work> off topic: but, spain arrested some anonymous members over sony attack: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/10/spain-anonymous-idUSLDE7591P420110610
<scott-work> holstein: Mike says, "AWESOME!"    i say, "LOL"
<holstein> ;)
<falktx> hey
<scott-work> hi falktx  l0n3w0lf and dtchen  :)
<falktx> hey scott-work
<l0n3w0lf> scott-work: hey, how's it goin?
<scott-work> falktx: just to point out, gcdmaster is good for making red book masters and i don't think k3b or others can do that
<falktx> red book ?
<scott-work> it's a format with table of contents and such, even cd-text i believe
<dtchen> 'lo (all)
<scott-work> it is the format the cd's are published in from manufacturers
<holstein> orangebook right?
<falktx> scott-work: which extension ?
<holstein> some color
<scott-work> i'm doing good l0n3w0lf , how are you?
<holstein> anyways, its the tool that gets us what we want
<scott-work> falktx: extension?
<scott-work> ckontros: hi
<ckontros> hey
<scott-work> falktx: would you be interested in porting it to gtk3 or qt or whatever?
<l0n3w0lf> scott-work: doing well...  just installing Xubuntu 11.04 for testing on a desktop machine... then going to add studio apps...
<ckontros> falktx: gcdmaster is a CD authoring tool that gives options that other mastering apps dont offer.
<falktx> scott-work: i use k3b, and has got everything I need
<holstein> falktx: it might be something you would be interested in having in KXstudio, since im unsure if k3b actually has that capability
<ckontros> You can basically create a redbook standard CD with CD-TEXT as well as other options.
<falktx> holstein: scott-work: I still don't get what a red book image is...
<falktx> is it TOC? ISO? NRG? what?
<holstein> falktx: if you send a CD do manufacturing, you will
<falktx> let me try to get some info about this
<holstein> falktx: let me know if i can dig something up
<holstein> http://www.64studio.com/howto-mastering is where i first read about it
<holstein> and 64studio is where i last used it successfully
<falktx> holstein: scott-work: ckontros: please note that *all* of the cd/dvd apps I've seen for linux use cmd-line apps (wodim, cdrdao, etc), so they basically all have the same funtionality
<holstein> falktx: you would think
<ckontros> falktx: And this is not a basic tool.
<ckontros> Its very specific.
<falktx> I'm sure gcdmaster uses come cmd-line app like wodim to record these
<holstein> prolly
<ckontros> You would have to use it, or have the need for it to understand.
<holstein> falktx: if k3b does it all, then, thats the solution for you
<holstein> if not, we might be able to mutually benifit from you being potentially talked into maintaining it :)
<ckontros> As I said on the ML... Swords and all...
<holstein> ckontros: well, not that we are taking on k3b
<holstein> just that falk might not need an alternitive
<falktx> everyone please read this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_%28audio_CD_standard%29
 * ckontros doesnt need to.
 * ckontros has it bookmarked. ;)
 * l0n3w0lf has it bookmarked as well...
<holstein> hehe
<l0n3w0lf> WOW, the difference between Unity and XCFE on ubuntu 11.04 is night and day speed-wise
<falktx> from what I read -> red book = audio cd
<holstein> falktx: sure, but its a certain level of CD
<holstein> with text and track into
<holstein> stuff that a manufaturer would want
<falktx> lol, i don't think so
<ckontros> Note that this isnt a tool most people would think about. I was a audio engineer. The options in gcdmaster I have not seen in other apps.
<falktx> red book is a standard, like LV2 is a standard
<holstein> things, that if you want to be a mastering engineer, you would need to add to the project
<ckontros> In free software anyway.
<falktx> any app that supports cd-text will in turn support red book too
<ckontros> That is the reason Ubuntu Studio added it.
 * falktx tries gcdmaster
<holstein> falktx: when i wanted to have a track end, and overlap with the beginning of the next track
<ckontros> Im not gonna keep going on about it. You gotta try it. :)
<holstein> i did that in ardour
<holstein> but, GCDmaster is the tool that would read that infomation properly
<falktx> holstein: k3b does that!
<holstein> falktx: if you say k3b does that, then i need to check on it
<holstein> but, i vaugely remember trying it about 10.04, since GCD wasnt working
<holstein> and i booted back into 64studio and did the job
<holstein> BUT, thats been a while
<holstein> might have been 9.04 actually
<holstein> falktx: if k3b does it, then you are covered for KXstudio, but we'll need another option
<holstein> falktx: im just getting to that email
<holstein> i think we are talking about different things
<falktx> holstein: I still just don't get what format red book stuff is save into
<holstein> brasero did not do the trick for me at all
<falktx> I'll try ardour
<holstein> falktx: yeah, i'll have time later too
<holstein> i'll get the project i have with TOC's and all
<holstein> and try k3b
<holstein> can brasero make a disc without pauses?
<ckontros> There's also the ability to add Catalog/UPC/EAM #'s. (info that CD databases check to pull metadata.
<holstein> maybe there are plugins for brasero im unaware of
<ckontros> Its small, specific and has little depends. (though they are going away as of lately)
<falktx> wtf, TOC is just a common standard to disk burning
<falktx> I've been using that myself for years
<falktx> I opened gcdmaster and I don't see any special feature
<holstein> falktx: i'll do more testing, but brasero did *not* work for me
<falktx> lol, it even crashes a lot
<holstein> AFAIK, i cant make a CD without 2 seconds in between tracks
<falktx> let me try k3b
<holstein> falktx: its like the difference between nero and CD architect on windows
<holstein> although nero has added a lot of functionality AFAIK
<holstein> i havent seen it since v6
<falktx> k3b says this TOC file is invalid...
<holstein> :/
<dtchen> has anyone pinged seb about that gcdmaster change?
<dtchen> it seems kinda daft in retrospect, but the rationale in the changelog has good intent
<falktx> anyway, I'll be able to put gcdmaster into the PPA if someone needs it for later
<ckontros> dtchen: So its not concrete?I really dont know why the changed happened or the plan.
<falktx> but all my TOC files I generated with k3b are unreadable (binary), and ardour generates readable ones, which makes me think someone is doing something wrong
<dtchen> ckontros: I don't know; I've just read the bug history
<falktx> k3b uses wodim and the generated TOCs are unreadable, binaries
<falktx> ardour generates readable, text file, TOCs
<falktx> which one is right?
<dtchen> falktx: well, that's at least one bug; k3b should be fixed
<falktx> dtchen: not k3b, wodim. k3b is just a frontend
<falktx> and I'm not sure why an app like wodim would do things wrong
<falktx> you may not like this, but I think ardour is generating non-standard TOC files
<ckontros> "depends on deprecated gnome libraries" Will they be gone from main? Shit. I dont care about unmaintained as long as it still works. Hell, I still use grip. It was dropped so I build it myself. Works fine.
<scott-work> dtchen: i can email seb if you think it will help, but will this get around the gtk libraries that are being removed (suppossedly)?
<ckontros> falktx: With all this round and round I get that you continue to miss what this app does. It works for creating professional grade, fully compliant, RedBook standard CDs. No other app Ive tried on linux  ever created a proper CD with full working CD-TEXT and info used by the industry for cataloging.
<dtchen> ckontros: it looks like the two build-deps were already demoted to universe
<dtchen> ckontros: sorry, just one of the two, libgnomeuimm-2.6-dev
<ckontros> dtchen: Can gcdmaster be moved there?
<dtchen> ckontros: unfortunately all the build-deps must be satisfiable at build time, and cdrdao is a main source package
<dtchen> I wonder how difficult it would be to port to gtk3
<ckontros> Im guessing something important in main wants cdrdao?
 * ckontros is looking for an interim solution.
<dtchen> ckontros: yeah, k3b (and thus kubuntu-desktop)
<scott-work> i guess i should NOT email seb at this point
<ckontros> dtchen: Create a new source pkg?
<dtchen> scott-work: right, sorry, didn't mean to ignore that question
<scott-work> no, no, its okay :)
<scott-work> i'm sure everyone is looking at source or dependencies
 * scott-work can't do all that on his windows machine :(
<scott-work> well, not with the CLI tools that i'm used to using
<dtchen> ckontros: I'm pretty sure duping the source package would be a no-go
<ckontros> scott-work: SSH to a home box. :P
<ckontros> dtchen: I'm saying split them into 2 source pkgs.
<scott-work> ckontros: i have seriously considered that, but just IRC alone pulls me away from actually work at work more than i should, with an ssh available i would probably get fired ;)
<dtchen> ckontros: I'm going to investigate if we can adjust seeds (because I haven't looked in a while); it might be that we can temporarily live without gcdmaster just to keep US installable, and have people pull from a ppa during the dev cycle
<ckontros> scott-work: I totally understand.
<scott-work> i'm going email seb and ask him for options or suggestions then
<ckontros> dtchen: I believe Luke already adjusted them.
<dtchen> ckontros: ok
<dtchen> scott-work: please also Cc me on that; I'm happy to look into porting it to gtk3
<scott-work> dtchen: absolutely
<dtchen> I don't have serious audio obligations now, so I have a bit of time for actual dev work
<ckontros> dtchen: I'd like to help on that where I can. Looks like it uses some non-standard icons as well. Or, deprecated ones.
<dtchen> ckontros: absolutely, cool
<dtchen> (my frankensystem is running kubuntu atm)
<ckontros> dtchen: Thats the one thing I hate about development. My main desktop always becomes a frankenbox.
<scott-work> dtchen: shall i use one of your ubuntu addresses?
<dtchen> yeah, time to fire up a vm and install 11.10 so my current 11.10 frankeninstall doesn't pollute it
<scott-work> or THE ubuntu address?
<dtchen> scott-work: the ubuntu one is fine
<ckontros> scott-work: Try to contact the upstream author as well.
<ckontros> scott-work: See what his intentions are. If he's done with it, we can pull it to LP and get some folks tinkering.
<scott-work> ckontros: good point, i'll send one shortly
<ckontros> Sure. No hurry. Dont get fired. :P
<scott-work> one thing gcdmaster can do that others may not being to do is create a "hidden track" like we see on CD's these days
<scott-work> ckontros: lol
<ckontros> scott-work: Actually, I'll do it. dtchen you want me to CC you on that?
<scott-work> ckontros: sure
<dtchen> ckontros: yes, please
<ckontros> Also. Guys: Isnt Xubuntu staying with GTK2 or something? charlie-tca: Can you let us in on whats happening here? (i might be mistaken)
<charlie-tca> Xfce will stay at GTK2 at least until 4.10, and proabaly beyond. Since Oneiric has Xfce 4.8, we have to keep gtk2.
<charlie-tca> We will need gtk3 for the stuff Ubuntu upgrades to it, like software center
<charlie-tca> yes, gonna be a mes
<ckontros> dtchen: How is that gonna work? ^^^ (i realize that a broad question)
<dtchen> ckontros: well, if our focus is to keep gcdmaster, the Xfce bit is irrelevant - unless Xfce is also using gcdmaster.
<dtchen> err, the second Xfce should be Xubuntu
<dtchen> (AFAIK Xubuntu isn't)
<scott-work> they use xburn
<scott-work> i believe
<ckontros> dtchen: I meant the GTK thing.
<ckontros> Well, I guess its like the GTK1->2 move.
<charlie-tca> We haven't got the xubuntu session working quite right in oneiric. We made some changes to force gdm to work, and have to reverse them for lightdm
<ckontros> scott-work: ^^^
<charlie-tca> bug 795575
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 795575 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-session unavailable for Oneiric" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/795575
<charlie-tca> the workaround is not working for me
<charlie-tca> anything else I forgot to tell you ?
<scott-work> ckontros: yeah, i saw some traffic on the xubuntu-devel ML about this
<ckontros> No. Just means we might wait till LightDm hits and you guys are working before we make the change.
<scott-work> charlie-tca: want to give you a big thank you for your help and work
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
<charlie-tca> wish we had more answers sometimes, though
<charlie-tca> hit already. We shoved lightdm into the seeds this week, that's how we found the gdm workaround was still there.
<charlie-tca> On an upgrade from 11.04, I think gdm will still be there, and you can install lightdm. It then works
<ckontros> Gotcha. Last I tinkered, LightDM was a PITA. :(
<charlie-tca> I installed oneiric on this from alpha1 images, and added lightdm. It works, but it does crash every login
 * ckontros wonders what defines "unmaintained"? Last gcdmaster was '09. Not too bad.
<ckontros> dtchen: Your IRC nic AT ubuntu.com correct?
<dtchen> ckontros: crimsun at
<dtchen> bye, folks. Back later.
<ckontros> Damn. I already sent it. Ill fix it later.
<ckontros> PM if needed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-11
<ScottL> ailo_, where is the wiki page that you were recording the realtime testing?
<ScottL> i know of this one:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime
<ScottL> but i thought there was a much shorter, more condensed version that pretty much only had testing in it
<ScottL> the one i linked didn't appear to have the last test data i did as well
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> in other news, i was trying to test alessio's 2.6.39 -lowlatency kernel until i realized it was for oneiric only
<ScottL> so i'm setting up an oneiric install now
<ailo_> ScottL, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_test_results
<ailo_> That's for a specific kernel version on Natty
<ailo_> I should start working on a script soon
<ailo_> If we are to test, we should have some more machines, I think
<ailo_> Two testers is not enough
<ailo_> We need a script to make it easier
<astraljava> ailo_: ScottL: With a script, I will definitely participate in testing. Might be too busy otherwise, though.
<astraljava> Basically my machine is on always, so it has plenty of time to run tests, if automated.
<ScottL> astraljava, are you having a look at mudita24 this weekend?
<astraljava> ScottL: I plan to, tomorrow.
<ScottL> super sweet :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-12
<ScottL> i'm installing oneiric right now (was having trouble before) to test alessio's kernel
<ScottL> i think having a script for testing is a good idea for the future
<ScottL> but my goal is to get alessio's -lowlatency kernel into the repos if it continues to perform as we've tested already
<astraljava> That would be good, agreed.
<ScottL> i'm also hoping that we focus on documentation and getting ubuntustudio-controls fixed before moving onto other tasks
<astraljava> Yeah, testing documentation is another thing I planned to work on tomorrow.
<astraljava> The third is gcdmaster.
<astraljava> Err... what was the name anyway.
<astraljava> Yeah, that.
<ScottL> astraljava, would you mind working on mudita24 first?  it will need the most time to get through debian and then for us to file a sync report?
<ScottL> lol, no question mark at the end of the last sentence
<ScottL> cory has contacted the upstream gcdmaster author to get his input and i emailed the person who made the change so that gcdmaster didn't build to get his input
<ScottL> i think we are still formulating which direction we could go
<astraljava> ScottL: Sure, no prob.
<ScottL> thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-04
<micahg> falktx: I'm not understanding the issue, why won't dssi-vst work?
<falktx> micahg: because it's only available as 32bit
<falktx> 32bit plugins don't work on 64bit hosts
<micahg> if that's true, the solution for 12.04 was done wrong, the 32 bit app running on the 64 bit host can use the plugins though
 * micahg is missing info
<falktx> a 32bit app running on a 64bit _system_ can load 32bit plugins
<micahg> falktx: where do these other plugins come from?
<falktx> others?
<len-dt> micahg, The iso failed to build because the plugins were not available to the 64bit ISO.
<len-dt> or were not in the 64bit repo.
 * micahg is very confused ATM
<falktx> dssi-vst doesnt build on 64bit anymore, so it's only available as 32bit now
<falktx> if a package depends on it, it will fail to install
<micahg> right, with multiarch enabled, people thought this would be fine
<micahg> no
<falktx> not at all
<micahg> apt-get install dssi-vst on a 64 bit system works fine
<falktx> does 'sudo apt-get install qtractor:i386' works too?
<micahg> nope
<falktx> :(
<micahg> librubberband2 isn't multiarch enabled
<falktx> well, I wanted to fork dssi-vst anyway...
<micahg> we'd probably take an SRU for that
<falktx> maybe later I'll give this a fix on a new fork-code
<micahg> falktx: please don't we can fix most issues :)
<falktx> micahg: there is some missing funcionality I want to add there, but I know the author will not be 100% happy with it
<micahg> oh, hrm
<falktx> project is almost dead now anyway
<micahg> maybe work with the upstream author to a decent compromise?
<falktx> I'll see it in a few weeks
<micahg> ok
<micahg> as for the qtractor multiarch install, rubberband needs to be multiarched in Debian first
<micahg> as does libfftw3-3
<falktx> btw, I found out that most debian packages come with debug enabled
<falktx> that is just awful
<micahg> yes, but the symbols are stripped and stored in a separate package
<falktx> lol, like it matters much
<falktx> it shrinks in size a bit, but slowness will be there
<falktx> qtractor is *imensily* affected by this
<falktx> it just prints debug messages all the time...
<micahg> that's a bug I think :)
<falktx> no
<falktx> if an app is configured to run in debug mode, then it will do debug-related stuff
<micahg> right, we don't want debug mode in the build, just the debugging symbols
<falktx> hm, why do we even want that?
<falktx> it compromises speed
<falktx> (and cpu)
<micahg> well, in Ubuntu it's helpful to be able to retrace stufff
 * micahg doesn't know all the background on it
<falktx> I don't really think it's any good. users will complain about random xruns
<falktx> if an app prints stuff during process callbacks, of course it will cause xruns
 * falktx is losing hope in debian
<len-dt> micahg, on thinking a bit, it seems to me the loss of the dssi-vst happened at the time of our change from alt to live DVD. We could include the package in the alt, but the live would not build with it. We were more interested in getting the live DVD working than trying to fix what was wrong with dssi-vst
<len-dt> getting look and feel right after 11.10 (looked like xfce with some audio apps thrown at it) seemed more important.
<micahg> right, you could only include it on the i386 image
<len-dt> Ya
<len-dt> We have never relooked at the problem since
<len-dt> So, if we go to where we wanted, with a more minimal install and add workflows later it would probably work again.
<len-dt> micahg, not having Scott around to bounce things off of has slowed us down a bit.
<len-dt> That should change soon 
<ailo_> len-dt: I can't seem to get PA to rise above 3.5 MB in memory use. Can you reproduce?
<ailo_> Sorry, 3.2 MB
<knome> hey scott-work :)
<scott-work> hi knome, how are you today?
<knome> fine!
<knome> setting up the xubuntu community meetings
<scott-work> i'm tired
<knome> me too
<knome> i took 14h "naps"
<scott-work> my mother-in-law fell and broke her shoulder this weekend and we spent quite a bit of time at the hospital and her house over the past two days
<knome> ouch
<scott-work> yeah, it wasn't unexpected however
<knome> yup, old people
<scott-work> she's not _that_ old, however she has had chemo due to cancer, she's overweight, and not in shape (at all!)
<knome> aha
<scott-work> "fragile" comes to mind
<knome> right, well that too
<astraljava> Oh dear
<knome> hope she gets well soon
<astraljava> "No, no deer, they run too fast."
<knome> astraljava, milove!
<scott-work> thanks knome 
<scott-work> hi astraljava 
<len-dt> ailo, (to answer your question from before) PA normally takes about 6M of ram
<len-dt> when jack runs (and the pa-jack bridge loads) that goes up to about 108M
<len-dt> a2j uses 105M btw.
<ailo> That's weird
<ailo> I noticed qjackctl had been updated for Wheezy, so I expect it has been for Quantal as well
<len-dt> I think it is something to do with the jacklibs
<ailo> I also noticed the new config option "Stop JACK audio server on application exit"
<ailo> So, I assume it just makes sure to kill jackdbus if active
<ailo> Which is good
<len-dt> jack-dssi-host uses 105M
<ailo> With what?
<len-dt> hexter inside uses only 12m
<len-dt> They show up separately
<ailo> Yeah
<len-dt> It seems the lib that allows connecting to jack grabs a chunk of memory (the libs themselves are not that big)
<falktx__> len-dt: you're confusing app-memory vs shared memory
<len-dt> So even on a 2G system, pulsebridge and a2j together are already using 10% of the ram. That is ok if you are using them but not if you don't need them.
<len-dt> could be.
<falktx__> when an app uses a shared library (jack, gtk, qt, etc), it shares resources with such lib
<falktx__> I bet any jack app will show up to use ~100Mb
<len-dt> I'm looking at top I see a line like:  7951 len       20   0  131m 105m 104m S    3 10.5   0:06.59 jack-dssi-host   
<len-dt> the 104 is shared.
<len-dt> the 105 is "res"
<len-dt> the res value matches the app use pretty good. 
<len-dt> falktx__, so how do I read the output from top then to make the most sense?
<ailo> len-dt: I don't know top very well, but I assume there's a way to add more categories somehow
<ailo> I just use the system monitor
<ailo> Only use top when I need to kill stuff basically
<len-dt> res means "resident size"
<len-dt> shared memory means "memory that could be potentially shared with other processes"
<len-dt> the man page doesn't say if shared mem is included in resident size or not.
<len-dt> I don't think so as virt includes "all code, data and shared libraries  plus  pages  that
<len-dt>           have  been  swapped out and pages that have been mapped but not
<len-dt>           used"
<len-dt> On the other hand if vrt is 131m and res is 105M and shr is 104... that is confusing...
<len-dt> ailo, do you mean like "task manager"?
<ailo> len-dt: No. I use the gnome System Monitor
<len-dt> task manager shows the same numbers.
<len-dt> We don't ship that.
<ailo> len-dt: Got curious, and found a way to display and sort commands according to % memory use
<ailo> len-dt: ps -eo %mem,comm --sort %mem
<ailo> The % memory is accurate, so it's not shared memory
<len-dt> same numbers as before.
<ailo> You're right
<ailo> Damn :P
<ailo> But the gnome System Monitor is showing the right values under "Memory" anyway
<ailo> I would assume the XFCE task manager can be set to show more categories
<len-dt> "right" meaning?
<len-dt> BTW I am using the kxstudio jack and qjackctl.
<len-dt> The task manager config says I am looking at "private bytes"
<len-dt> That sounds "unshared"... but who knows I don't always know what I am talking about, so the writer of the app may be confused.
<ailo> len-dt: The amount of memory that this app is using alone
<ailo> I guess "right" is not the right term
<len-dt> So the 100M all the jack apps are using is not shared?
<ailo> Right now, Firefox is using 324,6MB of memory, 33.5MB shared memory
<ailo> jackdbus 7.5 memory, 82.5 shared memory
<len-dt> ailo, is your system 32bit or 64?
<ailo> 64 bit
<len-dt> would that be why yours is using less memory?
<ailo> 64bit usually uses more memory
 * len-dt has 32 bit systems
<ailo> If you have 32 bit and need 2 GB, for 64bit you'll need 3GB
<len-dt> for code, for storage of audio as well?
<len-dt> I guess a gb is a gb even if you use two words for everything.
<micahg> scott-work: BTW, any plans to release alpha1?
<ailo> len-dt: Also, I'm on Wheezy, so there may be some differences. But, generally, it should not be that big of a difference
<ailo> At least not what the audio apps are concerned
<ailo> len-dt: I have no idea what format "memory" really is in System Manager. I can't seem to find the same format using ps
<len-dt> ailo it is 10% to 15%, not that big. I will try on the stock US machine too.
<ailo> As for Firefox memory, it of course depends on what you are using it for. Usually, it grows with time. I often get over 1GB of memory
<ailo> Thunderbird uses up a lot too
<len-dt> my FF is 559 virt, but only 99 resident size and 28mshared
<micahg>  4231 micah     20   0 2447m 1.5g  40m R  100  6.2 602:17.86 firefox-trunk 
<micahg> that's with ~700 tabs
<micahg> Firefox 13+ will have lower memory usage in restored sessions
<ailo> micahg: Doesn't it get really slow for you?
<micahg> nope
<ailo> I find that some pages make scrolling pages really slow
<micahg> then again, I don't run on a "normal" machine
<micahg> ailo: those would either be bugs or configuration issues
<micahg> if it's reproducible, feel free to report a bug with ubuntu-bug firefox (you might want to try firefox-trunk first to see if it's been fixed already)
<SergeLion> zramswap increases the effective amount of RAM roughly by 50%, it saved me back when Firefox 4 leaked gigabytes
<ailo> micahg: Could be a driver bug
<SergeLion> nowadays lastest stable Firefox uses twice less memory than Chromium for opening Gmail
<ailo> I had an update today that fixed a problem I was having with flash (some videos were overly blue), and it does seem like behaviour has changed for firefox as well. I use auto-scrolling a lot, and usually the scrolling get's stuck periodically. And did so for other pages too, when I had heavy java or flash (one or both of them) loaded. Seems to be gone now. Only those pages are twitchy now
<ailo> Only those pages are twitchy that are "heavy"
<Len-nb> ailo, interesting, on my netbook the same apps are using 82-85M
<ailo> Len-nb: I'm reading up on Linux memory management. Shared memory is things that are shared between multiple applications, such as bash. I don't know the extent of it. I guess it would be correct to say an application is using all of that memory, but if you close the application, much of that is still used by other applications, or perhaps by the OS itself
<ailo> Also, virtual memory is not actual hardware memory
<Len-nb> ailo, ya, I figured that much.
<ailo> If you make a sum of all the virtual memory allocated, it's far larger than the RAM you have installed
<Len-nb> virtual includes swapped mem
<ailo> Or, could be far larger, but it's how it is for me right now anyway
<ailo> Firefox does not seem to share a lot with the system
<ailo> While jackdbus and other apps seem to share quite a lot
<micahg> nope, firefox uses bundled libraries for most things
<Len-nb> virt should be... swapped+res or swapped+private+shared?
<Len-nb> nope. my swap is showing 0.
<ailo> Len-nb: I'm reading this old page http://tldp.org/LDP/tlk/mm/memory.html
<Len-nb> It appears that if stuff is read off the disk that is read only, it is not swapped out, but rather just over written and reloaded from the same file if needed again.
<Len-nb> I wonder how swappiness affects that?
<Len-nb> Anyway, I'm off...
<ailo> len-dt: Virtual memory is simply specific to the application. Doesn't really matter if it's swapped or not
<ailo> len-dt: Something I conclude from watching the different categories in System Monitor. Resident Memory is roughly the sum of shared memory + writable memory. Writable memory is roughly the size of "memory". 
<ailo> It seems uncommon that any shared memory is writable by the application. 
<ailo> Or perhaps doesn't happen at all. I don't know
<ailo> The trick here is to know what the shared memory consists of. What libraries, etc
<ailo> If I start jackd, and have no other audio applications running, total hardware memory usage increases by about 8 MB
<ailo> Still, writable memory is about 30MB, and shared is about 82
<ailo> The same from a new login. So..
<ailo> At least I can conclude that starting jackd does not load very much into RAM
<ailo> Starting Hexter will make the sum rise with about 4MB, which is what the two processes have as a sum in writable memory
<ailo> So, jack + hexter (+ jack-dssi-host) makes the sum of my RAM usage grow with less than 20MB
<ailo> len-dt: This seems like an ok wiki http://linux-mm.org/
<astraljava> Hey scott-work, How ya doin'?</Joey>
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-05
<len-dt> ailo, what has changed since 2006?
<ailo> len-dt: Regarding memory management?
<len-dt> Ya, I was thinking about pae kernels for example... I am seeing some of that here so maybe not.
<ailo> I read that 2.6 introduced a couple of new things, but I don't believe memory managment has changed much overall since 2.4
<len-dt> Lots to learn... I am beginning to see where some of the odd xruns might come from.
<ailo> I had problems with threadirqs in the past. For some reason they are gone now
<len-dt> fun. will they come back?... A guy on LAU is wondering if there is a problem with a cilb that is causing jackdbus trouble.
<len-dt> s/cilb/clib
<ailo> I'm a bit baffled. I had problems on both Ubuntu 12.04 as well as Wheezy. 
<ailo> Now, both seem fine
<ailo> Both have been updated. Also, maybe it has something to do with the order the cards are loaded.
<ailo> But if I remember correctly, the card order is the same
<ailo> I need to try with the DVD tomorrow
<ailo> On the basis of my previous problems, I was getting hesitant about making threadirqs a built-in option for the lowlatency kernel, as it is now, since I don't think there's any way of turning it off
<ailo> Not when it is builtin, that is
<len-dt> Are you testing 12.04 or 12.10?
<ailo> 12.04
<ailo> Haven't got around to installing Quantal yet
<len-dt> Probably best. 12.10 runs live but doesn't install
<ailo> I often use standard Ubuntu and add packages to it. But, I don
<ailo> ...don't test the desktop much
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-06
<len-dt> Setting pci latency does help. I can get my d66 running at -p32 without xruns now.
<len-dt> (with PA-jack bridging turned off)
<len-dt> Nope. Not so good when I started putting sound through.
<len-dt> A more conservative setting than http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration suggests seems ok. This is of use only for older systems anyway. PCIe doesn't need it... and single slot pci doesn't either. Even my cheapy netbook is all PCIe internally.
<len-dt> on another note, anyone know about the differences in midi interfaces?
<len-dt> The old 401 midi boxes used their own internal clock to keep timing tight. The info sent to the computer was not just midi information, but also what time the event happened. It seems the new USB midi IFs just feed the midi info through as it comes and so the computer timing is very important.
<len-dt> Does anyone know when this switch happened?
<TheMuso> Do you mean MPU-401?
<TheMuso> No idea about the switch, but I had a mobo that had an MPU-401 compatible MIDI chip on it, the mobo was from 2002/2003.
<len-dt> Just reading about it and the 401 had two modes, normal and uart
<len-dt> a lot of 401 "compatables" only suported uart mode.
<len-dt> The story goes that modern computers can do ok with uart mode, but ailo was having timing problems with his USB IF where my old game port (ensoniq) is fine.
<len-dt> The ensoniq is 401 compatible so that may be the reason.
<len-dt> ailo, did some research on midi ports. Is your's "401 compatible"?
<len-dt> It seems there are two kinds of midi ports. Uart and smart (mpu 401). My ensoniq game port says it is mpu401 compatible.
<len-dt> They send not just the midi data but the time stamp of when it happened... actually how many clock ticks since the last event I think. So it doesn't matter if the card is serviced on time.
<len-dt> The uart type relies on alsa to know what time the event happened.
<len-dt> That may be why access to a high rez timer is important for USB/raw uart midi ports.
<len-dt> ailo, I also tried the PCI latency script from the http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration page
<ailo> len-dt: Interesting. I haven't looked into that at all, other than I know alsa midi is no fun when using my external midi gear
<len-dt> It actually makes things worse, It seemed good with just jack running, but when I started guitarix I had lots of problems.
<len-dt> ailo, what I am saying to a point is that I will not be able to test if using high rez timers actually helps midi, because mine doesn't seem to need it.
<len-dt> I have to run bye
<ailo> I've had some difficulty putting time on US this last 1-2 weeks. Been really busy. Hopefully I can spare enough time to help finish the web site this week, but that will probably be difficult
<ailo> Sunday is booked up at least. I'm cycling 170km :P
<ailo> I have Friday and Saturday to get some work done
<ailo> After that I can start working on the wiki, and help organize testing docs
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-07
<len-dt> ailo, ya I've been busy too. I need to package my mode change stuff and add a config tool. I will try to make it open and not set to specific tweaks.
<len-dt> That way a user who has special needs can still do something we haven't thought of.
<len-dt> Or it can be used for other purposes besides US.
<len-dt> If nothing else it may make testing easier.
<scott-work> sorry all, have been sick since monday but i'm feeling much better now
<ailo> scott-work: Seemed like there might have been a bit of hesitance adding -lowlatency for UKT maintenance :P
<ailo> I was just thinking about the motivation to add it
<ailo> Since we will absolutely want it in, no matter which way, and the diff is just a couple of configs, it seems like the best course of action. I guess this is what we have already formulated
<ailo> Also, the configs are not only there for improving audio performance. They are more or less absolutely needed
<ailo> I know we all know this, but I wonder what the guys at UKT are thinking about this
<scott-work> ailo: i spoke with leann late last week on irc after several emails back and forth
<scott-work> her original concern was adding back another kernel into their responsibility after they had reduced the numbers
<scott-work> her current concern is validation of usage, to which she submitted an RT ticket to get the download numbers for the studio image
<scott-work> leann mentioned that one reason the non-pae i386 kernel was dropped was because of low, and dwindling, usage numbers
<scott-work> however, if the download numbers do not justify UKT maintaining the kernel, leann was very gracious to offer help creating scripts that would minimize the work for updating the lowlatency kernel
<ailo> scott-work_: Interesting to know download numbers for sure. Has anyone had any info on this before? I can understand wanting to use that as a meter, but from my point of view, the nessecity to have it as the default kernel for Ubuntu Studio, something that other distros do not suffer from (needing a special kernel), makes it a special case. Perhaps if it doesn't end up being maintained by UKT, it will hopefully gain popularity 
<ailo> We should also do more advertising for it. Perhaps highlight it just to make it more visible
<scott-work_> ailo: i seem to remember cory or pesia had posted a link a long time ago
<scott-work_> i don't remember anything specific, other than perhaps 64bit seemed to double that of 32bit over a period of time
<ailo> An item we should add to testing is to make some sort of general comparison between -generic and -lowlatency. The cons and pros. Probably the only downside is higher use of power, and it would be good to be able to show how much.
<ailo> I should start a scratchpad for things like this. 
<ailo> Or add some items to blueprints
<ailo> Seems like the best way after all :P
<Len-nb> scott-work_, good to see you back, sorry to hear you were sick.
<scott-work_> ailo: definitely add it to the blueprint, that way it might inspire others to think of something else :)
<scott-work_> Len-nb: thanks
<Len-nb> scott-work_, do you have a midi IF? If so what kind? ( looking for non-mpu401 compatible)
<scott-work_> no, i don't have any MIDI gear
<Len-nb> Ok, there have been problems with USB MIDI IFs. I can't test it though.
<Len-nb> I wanted to see if the problem was wider than just one instance.
<Len-nb> ailo, I don't think the Low latency kernel would add much power use over the generic. On it's own the change will not make the cpu work harder. That would depend on the software running. "ondemand" still sets the cpu to half speed on idle and the RT stuff only gets used when SW that uses it runs. That SW would have the same effect on generic too.
<Len-nb> ailo, setting swappiness to 10 instead of 60 would decrease power use.
<Len-nb> speaking of swappiness, there has been a move in the linux world towards lower numbers. RH now defaults to 40.
<Len-nb> on my two machines I have swappiness set to 0 on one and 10 on the other.
<Len-nb> even though they are both low memory machines (1 G) there is no difference in swapping with normal use.
<ailo> Len-nb: I've heard that -lowlatency might require more power. Would be good to find out
<Len-nb> in both cases after a days use swap had no use.
<Len-nb> ailo, figuring a test case might not be too easy. I do have a power meter though.
<ailo> Jeez, my nvidia card fan is having a real concerto today. 
<ailo> Len-nb: If there is a way, we'll find it
<Len-nb> have to measure both low use and high use cases.
<ailo> One could ask the question why does Ubuntu not use a higher resolution by default
<ailo> For the timer
<Len-nb> ailo, I had thought of that :-) yes.
<ailo> Also, what does preempt do, that would be bad for other uses
<Len-nb> timer
<Len-nb> the high res timer is there, but not available to userland
<Len-nb> ailo, I think in due time these changes will become main steam
<Len-nb> settable on boot anyway.
<ailo> Actually, that might be something worth trying to hack
<ailo> Would mean we don't need -lowlatency. Just some boot options
<Len-nb> ailo, if there is a general trend to command line options, that could be a problem too. There used to be a limit to command line length...
<Len-nb> so what we want is the kernel config to be something like yes/no/cl
<ailo> Would be even better if those changes could be done during runtime
<ailo> I'm not about to try to code it yet anyway :P
<ailo> Ok, time to hit bed. Work to do tomorrow!
<Len-nb> ailo, the first thing to find out is if having it running all time really affects anything else.
<Len-nb> GN
<ailo> Len-nb: I guess servers like non preempt, but I don't really know why. 
<ailo> As for resolution, no idea
<ailo> Timer res, that is
<Len-nb> preempt only happens if SW uses it.
<Len-nb> timer rez probably have a cpu work load effect
<Len-nb> preempt in a server could be a security problem.
<Len-nb> A bad user program could be like a DOS.
<ailo> All of these things should be written down and confirmed/proved somehow.
<ailo> I didn't mean to do anything about this yet, since I have other tasks to do first
<ailo> But, later on..
<Len-nb> yup
<ailo> Sounds like there's some material for a comparison between the kernels anyway
<ailo> GN Len-nb :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-08
<Len-nb> ailo, astraljava just so I don't forget... ubuntustudio-default-settings has a Recommends: xfce4-utils in it. That needs to be removed as well as in the seeds whenever people get around to that.
<Len-nb> xfce4-utils is no longer there.
<Len-nb> or conflicts with the newer version of xfce4...
<astraljava> Len-nb: There is a bug about it, I think. Scott wanted to fix that but hasn't apparently gotten to that yet.
<astraljava> Len-nb: But we should probably have a meeting soon. Can you give me some possible time frames when you could be available? For me it's usually 1500-1900 UTC on work days, weekends are more free but might be away from home.
<Len-nb> astraljava, Yes, I couldn't find the bug... but not only seeds needs to be changed, I see the same package in settings as a recommends. I don't always catch Scott when hes on
<astraljava> Len-nb: I think he's aware of the issue.
<Len-nb> astraljava, I'm -0800 this time of year
<micahg> bug 1002250
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1002250 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "[quantal] xfce4-utils is deprecated in 4.10" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1002250
<Len-nb> Thanks I add it there.
<Len-nb> 1900 - 800 is 1100 here. I'm at work at that time.
<Len-nb> The 1700 on sundays was ok in the winter when I was -0900, but with the time change, I am not longer around.
<astraljava> Len-nb: Ok, so we won't schedule a regular time for meetings thus far, let's just try and catch all the topics whenever we're about at the same time.
<Len-nb> I do read the logs. and try to answer even if it seems I am talking to nobody ;-)
<Len-nb> astraljava, I see that my bug was a dup, Both packages are tagged in the original already good.
<astraljava> Len-nb: Yep. I'll send Scott email soon.
<Len-nb> thnks
<Len-nb> astraljava, I am working on a package and would like to have a working iso for fresh installs to try it against
<astraljava> Len-nb: Right, yeah it would be great to be able to test the new components of Xfce4, too. I'm a little busy for a few days, but if nothing happens by Sunday, I'll look into this issue.
<Len-nb> the latest err report was talking about a gimp issue as well
<Len-nb> gimp-resynthesizer : Depends: gimp-plugin-registry (>= 5.20120523~) but 4.20120506
<Len-nb> is to be installed
<micahg> that's because it FTBFS in quantal
<micahg> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/#ubuntustudio
<Len-nb> micahg, so we are waiting for the packages to be fixed?
<micahg> waiting?  someone has to fix it :)
<Len-nb> micahg, Ok, I thought each package had a maintainer. If the package is broken, wouldn't that maintainer fix it? Or am I reading that page wrong?
<micahg> Len-nb: in Debian they do, but it's not broke in Debian
<Len-nb> wonderful
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-09
<len-dt> question: for midi use high res clock is very important. While reading about this I am finding that there are two ways of getting a time in the future to perform a task like outputing a midi command.
<len-dt> A number of ticks into the future or at a specific time in the future.
<len-dt> the problem with the first one is that if the counter is preempted the time might be stretched, so I would expect that the second method would be preferred.
<len-dt> My question then, seeing as this is based on the RTC, what effect does a program that slowly changes the RTC to keep it locked to one of the world clock time sources.
<len-dt> IS that going to over time put midi events out of sync with the audio stream?
<len-dt> Ah, I think I answered my own question. There is a second clock (monotonic) that starts at boot and cannot be changed till next boot. Audio/midi apps probably use that.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-10
<astraljava> len-dt: ailo: I'm planning on doing the xfce4 changes tonight if Scott hasn't appeared and done them by... 1700 UTC or so.
<ailo> astraljava: Ah, great
<ailo> I finished another page for the web site feature tour https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/video/
<ailo> As video and graphics are not my thing, I might miss things
<ailo> ah, I should redo the video page
<ailo> Put the graphics related stuff for blender to the graphics page..
<ailo> Ok, gotta go. Will try to finish up the feature tour later today. After that, I'd say the web site is more or less ready for publishing. Hopefully during next week then
<len-dt> astraljava, +1
<ScottL> anybody want to have a quick meeting? i'll be around off and on for the rest of the day
<ailo> I'll be in for a few hours more
<ailo> ScottL: You know much about the ubuntustudio-font-meta?
<ailo> Should we look into if it's up to date or not?
<ailo> ScottL: I'm working on the feature tour part for the web site, but I'm not fully pleased with a lot of it.
<ailo> I'm thinking if we it's ok to be published we can pimp it up later though
<ailo> ScottL: Also, I don't know much about Blender video editing capabilities
<ailo> I suppose it is all done using Video Sequence Editor?
<ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure about it at all really
<ScottL> i think cjwatson (possibly others as well) have updated it when it broke due to someone removing a font
<ScottL> ailo, agreed on the website
<len-dt> ScottL, my question for the day is what is the normal video work flow? Record video in camera and then transfer to harddrive for editing or record video direct to disk?
<ScottL> ailo, and use the VSE (as you said) for editing video in blender
<ScottL> ailo, here are two good tutorial, if not pretty, for blender video
<ScottL> http://slackermedia.info/videoBlender/
<ScottL> http://slackermedia.info/videoBlender/export.html
<ScottL> it's for an older version but the work flow is the same
<ScottL> mainly...i think
<ScottL> len-dt, great question
<ScottL> len-dt, and what you described is basically it
<len-dt> ScottL, you seem to be the only one who has actually done video...
<ScottL> len-dt, here is pretty good tutorial for the basic work flow
<ScottL> http://monochrome.sutic.nu/2010/06/14/video-editing-with-blender.html
<ScottL> len-dt, hehe, just a little, but i'm working on more stuff
<ScottL> i even made a video, kinda of a teaser ad, with just inkscape and kdenlive
<ScottL> ..
<ScottL> by the way, i'm really liking kdenlive....a lot
<ScottL> after i complete a few other things i'm working on i would like to test it against openshot and blender again
<len-dt> Ok, I'm going to have to run, I'll look later when I get back. I may ask more questions then.
<ScottL> kdenlive has come a long way recently and it does compositing very nicely
<ScottL> len-dt, sure, i should be on irc more now that i have this computer set up
<ScottL> although kdenlive still can't do some things that blender can, but that is really high end stuff for really fancy animations and such
<ScottL> but again, kdenlive has really cut the distance between the two
<ailo> ScottL: Thanks. That'll give me some material for the feature tour
 * ScottL is away for a bit
<len-dt> Ok, I'm going to have to run, I'll look later when I get back. I may ask more questions then.
<ScottL> ailo, do you have that stuff where i can read it? maybe i can help fill in the gaps and add some stuff
<ailo> ScottL: I've been editing the staging site directly, so it's all there
<ailo> ScottL: So far I've unpublished pages and menu items to decrease the workload, and just kept the essential stuff. Download page is similar to the one in the community wiki. Now I'm just polisihing and adding
<ailo> I mean, adding to already existing pages
<ailo> Well, only the feature tour to be exact
<ailo> It would be great to have much more colorful pics showcasing the applications, so, free license type of pics are needed. I've been creating my own, and they tend to be really basic
<ailo> ScottL: I don't know. It doesn't seem to me Blender is the best program to edit videos. Sure that Openshot doesn't have all its' features?
<astraljava> ScottL! LTNC! :)
<ailo> kdenlive does look like a good video editor at a first look
<ailo> But I guess OpenShot works well enough to make home videos
<ailo> Only OpenShot doesn't seem all that stable :P
<ScottL> ailo, i don't recommend blender as a "home movie editor", it's when you want to do near professional or professional stuff
<ScottL> blender offers things for post production that others don't
<ScottL> it also offers things that others do offer, but in ways that other's don't, which sometimes makes it easier, and sometimes not :P
<ScottL> astraljava, hi!
<ScottL> ailo, the funny thing between openshot and kdenlive is that it seems 1/2 people say that kdenlive crashes on startup, the other 1/2 say openshot does
<ScottL> well, okay, not really 50-50, but many, many people do say the same thing about both of them and it doesn't seem to be the same people have trouble on both
<ScottL> but i've not done a study by any means
<ScottL> just from forum threads it seems like if someone has trouble with one then they try the other and no more complaints
<ScottL> oh, ailo, if "make home videos" = just trim film and place it in order, then almost any application can do that, including pitivi
 * ScottL is away again
<ailo> ScottL: Ok, so Blender offers post processing which is hard to get by with other editors?
<ailo> After working with Blender a bit, I just find it's not something you do unless you really need to. The Blender interface takes some time getting comfortable with
<ailo> I mean, for video editing
<astraljava> ScottL: How're you doing?
<knome> ScottL, o hai.
<astraljava> ScottL: Are you still going to do the xfce4 deprecated packages changes to our seeds?
<ailo> ScottL: I finished the feature tour https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/
<ailo> Sorry for all the revisions on the pages btw. I really need to do more previewing
<ailo> ScottL: I removed the first two front tabs on the Home page, just like I merged the two first pages in the feature tour. Polished the writing a bit on the first front tab. Right now, I can't think of anything else to change, so please review the entire site.
<ailo> And everyone else are of course welcome to have opinions and suggest addititions/changes or point out mistakes
<astraljava> ailo: Thanks, I'll try to have a go-through one of these upcoming evenings.
<astraljava> ScottL: I'm going to hit the hay now. Let me know if you don't have time to do the required seeds changes, we need to get the .iso built.
<len-dt> ScottL, having read that page (video editing, video file transferred from camera after creation) It would seem the major thing to worry about is making sure the camera looks like a storage device to linux. Generally not a problem.
<len-dt> I think I can make some video to import (might be plenty boring) and try some editing/playing and see of there are any system tweaks that would help. The use of audio might be more important... or my system may just not be able to handle it anyway ;-)
<len-dt> ScottL, in the clips you have done it looks like you have recorded the audio separately. Is that so? How do you resynchronize things? Are there sync issues over time?
<len-dt> ScottL, anything I have found on recording live video in, seem to be about recording video that is saved in a format that doesn't allow direct file transfer like video tape. So the workflow is basically the same anyway. Or for recording a webcam or a camera that acts like one.
<len-dt> ScottL, I have come across PCI (or PCIe) cards that can input 4 to 16 video channels at a time. I don't know:
<len-dt> If there is driver support in Linux
<ScottL> ailo, yes, it is difficult to work with, the latest versions (2.59 or 2.6 i think?) have improved it quite a bit, but the 2.49 was defintely horrible
<len-dt> If there is software that can deal with it by recording them all at the same time to disk or live switching to one video out.
<ScottL> ailo, but i still think blender suffers from that linux problem...too many options and choices
<ScottL> astraljava, if you want to do it or have time then certainly go ahead, otherwise i wanted to try to get to it tonight
<ScottL> astraljava, i might not have time tonight as me and wife are going to see prometheus this afternoon/evening
<ScottL> but i hope to
<ScottL> ailo, i haven't looked at the tour pages, but my thought was that it would follow similarly as the installation slide show, well, categorically i meant
<ailo> ScottL: I put graphics ahead of video, since video isn't as strong
<ailo> Otherwise the order is the same as before
<ailo> I need to see what the installation slide looks like
 * ScottL is working through the backscroll and answering in chronological order ;)
<ScottL> len-dt, what i have done is used my phone (yes, my phone!) to record 1080HD but used a separate computer with jack/ardour and my nice mic to get the audio
<ScottL> i don't demux the phone video (i.e. separate them into different files), i just mute the audio for the video in the editor
<ScottL> then i import the new audio in, however i will use the existing audio to help align the new audio
<ScottL> either visually (i.e. the waves) or by unmuting and listening, most times i use the visual method first then verify with the second
<ScottL> len-dt, so i suppose my larger point is that i've been using device (either my phone or t2i camera) that act as "mass storage devices"
<ScottL> i can easily plug them in and copy the file to the computer, although i also prefer the phone for most things because it is an mp4 format rather than the goofy apple format from my camera when it shoots video
<ScottL> that said, i know that a friendly codec is only an avcon (the 'new' ffmpeg) away
<ScottL> and when i start doing more serious work than podcasts or such i expect that i will follow a more rigid work flow and use the camera because the codec is uses is supposedly better for quality
<ScottL> then i'll use avconv (i spelled it wrong earlier) into image sequences and go from there
<ScottL> but i don't know anything about pci cards with multiple inputs, that seems a bit strange unless you are using the computer as a video desk for live broadcast stuff (i guess)
<ScottL> ailo, i wasn't really worried about the order of the feature tour as much as the parsing and level of what was presented, to be honest
<ScottL> i was hoping the slideshow at the website home page would mention the five or six different categories we address using two or three sentences (this is just guidelines stuff, mind you)
<ScottL> let's see...
<ScottL> 1. audio
<ScottL> 2. video
<ScottL> 3. graphics
<ScottL> 4. photography
<ScottL> 5. e-books ?
<ScottL> hmmmm
<ScottL> i guess four or five topics then ;)
<ailo> ScottL: Yeah, it works like that. Only, the order is different
<ailo> e-books?
<ScottL> and then the tour part would have a dedicated page for each of those topics to explain it in a slightly greater depth
<ailo> Perhaps add that to the next release blueprint
<len-dt> ScottL, so I would mostly be interested editing and presentation for video. I only mention live switching work for broadcast/recording live events because I happen to come from a broadcast background and my daily work was maintaining that stuff.
<ScottL> ailo, yeah, it was something i was exploring and it's already in one of the current blueprints, dont' remember which one
<ScottL> ailo, by the way, i made an ebook friday night while watching the movie 'john carter' with the family
<ScottL> ailo, i haven't pushed it to the android market or anythign yet, because it's kinda crap writing, graphics, and formatted kidna stupid, but i wrote it, made the graphics in inkscape, formatted it, and converted to EPUB during the movie :)
<ScottL> len-dt, oh, that's super cool! i didn't realize you had a background in that stuff
<ScottL> hold on a minute, while i find something...
<ScottL> len-dt, i learned a bit from listening to the twit stuff:  http://wiki.twit.tv/wiki/TWiT_Brick_House_Equipment
<len-dt> ScottL, I got into broadcasting because of music... then found there were no jobs in audio but a few more in TV. Then I got into industrial electronics
<ScottL> they use the tricaster 850 extreme
<len-dt> I'll look, thanks
<ScottL> and they use something like 20 or thirty cameras: Canon VIXIA HF G10 Full HD Camcorder
<ScottL> and one person behind the board, it's kinda crazy
<ScottL> i was thinking today also that i bet a linux box could even control homemade lights, say for a movie or such
<ScottL> or a concert i suppose and i think i remember reading about something for concert lighting before now that i think about audio more
<ScottL> oh, len-dt, sorry, the twit stuff really isn't going to help you with the pci card or anything, i was just mentioning it because it was what i thought about when you mentioned the card
<ScottL> ailo, i hope to flesh more of the video stuff out in several senses soon...
<ScottL> one main goal would be to get documentation and howto's worked up
<ScottL> even some video tutorial perhaps on select topics
<ScottL> i have even considered researching the whole movie thing, seeing what is available for budgeting, screenplay writing, etc
<ScottL> although this would be time consuming because basically i expect that i would have to write a movie and then make it!
<ScottL> in order to really understand the process, find the best solution(s), and then document it
<ScottL> but i also think that showing it could be done and done fairly well with only a modicum of talent (that would be me with my vast movie making experience)
<ailo> ScottL: I think the main problem is that there's no great application available right now
<ScottL> btw, that was a joke about "vast movie making expereince" because i dont' have any really
<ailo> I mean, sure, you can probably do everything with the tools at hand, but not in any easy way
<ScottL> ailo, application for which part?
<ailo> ScottL: Something like this http://www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=182
<ailo> They are planning a Linux release, but who knows when..
<ScottL> btw, klaatu works in the film industry and has a great podcast about how it works
<ScottL> http://gnuworldorder.info/ look for December 11, 2011: Episode 7x05
<ScottL> i am loading the page ailo, but i worry that people think that without final cut pro that movies can't be made, and that is obviously false
<ScottL> i'll explain in a minute after i read the web page
<ScottL> okay, this is like what i expected
<ScottL> i know that blender can do most of what that page said
<ScottL> kdenlive as well for most of it
<ScottL> trimming video isn't hard on practically any platform
<ScottL> blender has handled most formats (or codecs) for years
<ScottL> although i admit most linux applications have had their hands tied because most in linux don't care for proprietary formats, but it's a necessary evil in my opinion
<ScottL> but maybe google can help sway that with .webm, that's the format i'm going to push myself
<ScottL> timeline is handled well enough by both blender and kdenlive i believe
<ScottL> i admit that i don't know anything about multicam sync or stereoscopic stuff
<ScottL> some of that is like how some people look at audio with a spectrometer or spectrograph to see if "all" frequencies are equally represented
<ScottL> yeah, i know people do it, and it probably helps the music, but i'm not at that level, ya know? :P
<ScottL> maybe blender does some of that, maybe not...kdenlive too for that matter
<ailo> If you don't need to make pro movide, probably OpenShot is enough
<ScottL> ailo, agreed, i think the linux outlaws podcast uses openshot
<ScottL> 'project sharing' is like what novacut is trying to do
<ScottL> store you media in the web, people can use the same media and make their own edits, then you can actually watch each other make changes in real time
<ScottL> this type of stuff _could_ revolutionize the industry but probably won't because people have their ways of doing it and others (read: non-technical, big wigs who light cigars with $100 bills) who still want their work flow maintained
<ScottL> i.e. you make the rough cut film and show it to me in my private movie studio and then i tell you what to change
<ScottL> i'm serious about that last part, it's not hyperbole, i've not witnessed it but i've heard basically the same account from multiple sources
<ailo> I can only speak from my own experience. I have done a good share of audio recording/mixing and even with apps like Ardour, it's not all that confortable all of the time. What I look for is something powerful, and time efficient. Something that lets me focus on the music, and not the applications.
<ailo> I'd believe the same goes for all categories of multimedia
<ailo> You want great applications
<ScottL> and both kdenlive and blender have effects, i'm not sure what qualifies as "real-time" effects
<ScottL> ailo, i agree with your statements and i share them
<ScottL> and i think this is where blender falls down completely
<ScottL> final cut makes it stupidly simple to color grade compared to blender
<ailo> Blender is probably fantastic, once you learn to use it. And I would want to, if I was making 3D art
<ailo> If I was really into video, and determined to use Linux, and Blender was the *only* application that let me do certain things, I'd use it
<ScottL> ailo, this is why i'm really digging kdenlive now, it has most of the power of blender but makes it very, very much easier to use :P
 * ScottL is away for a bit
<ailo> kdenlive does seem like a good pro, or at least semi-pro application. I can't tell, other than it seems to have a lot more than OpenShot, which is fine for simple editing. kdenlive comes with additional 100-150MB? I think it's worth it, since the video area is as poor as it is, and there aren't all that many alternatives to pick from
<ailo> I don't think we need to document how to use all these applications. Would be better to find ready documentation on those things, and add links
<ailo> Otherwise, it's like Noahs Arc. Only, it might never get finished
<ailo> We only need to applications, and the information. We don't need to create it, only assemble it into easy read documentation
<ailo> Well, I've said all of that before. That's what I always try to aim for anyway
<ailo> I'll be away until tomorrow
<len-dt> ailo, we should only have to provide docs on how to put the apps together.
<len-dt> ScottL, when I was working in TV (1980 to 1984) one camera was about $160k. We had two studios with three each and a portable that could be used in either. So 4 cams even for a pretty complex setup like a live music video. Often a news cast was done with two. However, there were also available at the switcher at least two (normally more) tape machines (2 inch and 1 inch) and telecine. Probably minimum 10.
<len-dt> Audio (in the studios, on air was audio follows video) was done live by a sound man with completely separate routing from video. So for audio and video to match up took two people.
<len-dt> All of our audio and video was analogue. I think we had one digital frame store to sync incoming video from satellite for whatever. All of our internal video was syncs from a master clock with delay loops to match them up at the switcher. Some of these delay loops were just large coils of video cable.
<len-dt> Digital has changed a lot.
<len-dt> Mind you the place I was had old stuff even then. The ampex 1100 tape machines had germanium transistors...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-03
<OvenWerks> well i managed to built a source package and upload it to a personal PPA
<OvenWerks> it doesn't show yet
<OvenWerks> I guess it doen't show till it builds
<zequence> OvenWerks: If the upload worked, you should get a confirmation  withing a few minutes
<zequence> withing 10 or so
<zequence> and the package will appear before it's built
<zequence> you can monitor the build progress in launchpad
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+archive/ppa
<OvenWerks> its there built and everything
<zequence> great
<zequence> feel free to add it here https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/devel
<OvenWerks> Now I can try it against a fresh install
<OvenWerks> Ya, when I know it works.
<OvenWerks>  Actually I will probably just do a push when its ready
<OvenWerks> There are some things I haven't worked out yet
<zequence> I'm taking another exam today. security+. I don't understand the American fascination with abbreviations. Seems like half my studies is about learning all about them
<zequence> I mean, learning all kinds of abbreviations. but also a little bit about what they stand for
<zequence> I don't learn names and terms easily, so I don't really like this kind of education. makes me feel like a parrot
<zequence> next exam will be a little more fun though. linux+
<OvenWerks> zequence: ya, my wife is taking nursing and they have so many abbreviations... she sounds like she is spelling things out
 * OvenWerks is going to bed
<zequence> I passes my exam, all though it felt like I had studied the wrong book of abbreviations 
<astraljava> Hehe, yeah I got that every time. I hardly ever managed to participate the classes, what with living some 300 km away. So I used to just read the slides, and some odd material available in the 'net. It was usually just enough to get 51% or 52% scores.
<zequence> astraljava: Have you done any comptia certificate exams? or any other kind of American based certs?
<astraljava> zequence: No, I haven't.
<zequence> astraljava: Well, if you ever do, you'll know what it feels like to be a parrot
<astraljava> Hahah!
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-04
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think we need to consider two things when including apps for our default DE. The live ISO should have all the tools required by pro users. But, the installation could leave it up to the user what to include
<zequence> So, we could, if we want, keep a very customized version of XFCE on the live ISO, and also present that as the default Ubuntu Studio desktop during installation, while also letting users choose between the existing DE alternatives
<zequence> Or, flavor meta alternatives - lubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, etc
<zequence> also, xubuntu-desktop
<zequence> I would just use existing metas for everything, if it was not for the live ISO
<OvenWerks> My thinking in starting with a flavour and adding metas rather than adding their desktop, is that they are doing the maintenance.
<zequence> I'm not following
<OvenWerks> The user can go to the *ubuntu irc and get help for their install
<zequence> The idea all along has been that we do as little maintenance as possible
<zequence> But, there's a difference between installing the OS, and using the live OS, is what I mean
<zequence> the live OS needs to include good pro tools for live use
<OvenWerks> So if a user starts with kubuntu and adds ourt metas, they can still get help at kubuntu, but if we add their desktop the people at kubuntu may not want to
<zequence> it's not only for trying stuff out. it's a tool to be used - the live OS
<OvenWerks> I agree
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, that has been the idea all along
<zequence> So, what we can't do is use Xubuntu as base for the live OS.
<OvenWerks> From the conversation about video players they want to include "them all"
<zequence> We still need our own customized OS
<OvenWerks> Yes, I agree.
<OvenWerks> I Have not given up on a good quality live ISO or the install it provides
<OvenWerks> I know I have been working hard on adding studio to other installs, but I do not think that is our main focus. Just an addition.
<zequence> Well, it was my idea to do that in the first place
<zequence> But the reason for it is multifacetted
<OvenWerks> Thats were I got it from :) In fact I was pretty much against when it was first brought up :P
<zequence> one of my main goals have always been to make pro audio possible on any DE
<OvenWerks> I seem to have changed my mind.
<zequence> once starting to work at it, we find ourselves exploring what Ubuntu Studio really is
<OvenWerks> Yes.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I have family stuff to do for a bit. Will talk later.
<zequence> later
<zequence> ah, I was just about to PM him
<zequence> OvenWerks: Gnome3 is functional on saucy now, so you could give it a try if you want
<zequence> OvenWerks: There is an extension for the menu
<zequence> OvenWerks: But, not installed by default. Might be included with gnome-shell-extensions
<zequence> not all extensions are supported by all version of gnome, so not sure what is available right now
<zequence> oh, let me look, btw
<zequence> well, the tweak tool with which to configure extensions is not working right now, at least for me
<zequence> OvenWerks: extensions are avilable at http://extensions.gnome.org
<zequence> the menu is avilable there
<zequence> The dash for gnome-shell has dropped support for application categories it seems
<zequence> "classic" mode of course still uses it
<zequence> When you look for apps in the gnome-shell dash, you just search by tag, and you'll find whatever you are looking for, like "audio", "video", "internet", or if we add new ones, "daw", "sequencer", etc
<zequence> so, for pure gnome-shell, the custom menu isn't particularly needed
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-05
<OvenWerks> zequence: I will try gnome3. Is it an ISO or from mini.iso?
<zequence> OvenWerks: Either use the Ubuntu Gnome installer, or the mini.iso
<OvenWerks> I understand That there are many places a menu is not used. KDE also has modes that don't use a menu.
<zequence> But it needs to be a current one, if you want to get Gnome 3.8
<OvenWerks> That shouldn't be a problem as I have to download anyway.
<OvenWerks> I am finding out why the menuediting tools don't work.
<OvenWerks> There is a bug in the default xfce menu style (ours included)
<OvenWerks> The merge is done at the top of the file and should be done at the bottom.
<OvenWerks> Makes a big difference.
<OvenWerks> The bug seems to be in Xubuntu, xfce and lubuntu.
<OvenWerks> As well as studio...
<OvenWerks> KDE seems to be ok, I am not sure if it is because the menu file is right or they just use a different parser.
<zequence> OvenWerks: So, you know of a workaround?
<OvenWerks> Ya, just move one line from the top of the file to the bottom
<OvenWerks> As it is in the KDE file (just looked)
<zequence> OvenWerks: So this will make the menu work for all DEs?
<OvenWerks> The problem is the DE file is what is broken. So I have to do a bug report for all of the broken ones.
<OvenWerks> It is not just our menu, but the menu editors need it to work right
<zequence> Question is, which way should it be?
<zequence> top or bottom
<zequence> And maybe both should work?
<OvenWerks> Bottom acording to opendesktop
<zequence> ok
<OvenWerks> The merge should go below the stock one because the lowset setting is the one that works.
<zequence> The bug should go to the DE itself. XFCE and LXDE in this case
<OvenWerks> I read the XDG page on merges a few times to figure out what was going on
<zequence> The bug report, I mean
<OvenWerks> Yup, Studio too.
<zequence> And, it would be good to do it both in Ubuntu and with the upstream developers
<zequence> Well, Studio is not a DE
<zequence> But if you mean, you need to fix a setting file, well ok
<OvenWerks>  no but we use our own menu file. So it has to be right
<OvenWerks> Same with xubuntu
<OvenWerks> I think lubuntu as well, but I will have to check
<OvenWerks> I am not sure but I think lxde uses the xfce pannel, so fixing xfce may fix that
<zequence> In either case, the most important fix is upstream
<OvenWerks> Yes.
<OvenWerks> I will have to check cinnamon and gnome3 classic
<OvenWerks> I need to find out which file in the xfce DE contains the stock menu file.
<OvenWerks> Which package.
<zequence> I've started a discussion on pkg-multimedia-maintainers list about separating jackd from jackdbus, but is seems someone is of the opinion they should not conflict with each other
<zequence> at least, I'm going to try separate them into different packages this cycle
<zequence> It's really wrong to have three versions of the same thing, with no real upside to it
<OvenWerks> Aren't they buiolt from the same src?
<zequence> Yes, jack2 source
<OvenWerks> Can you set the target for just one?
<zequence> You can build one source into multiple packages
<zequence> jack2 is actually in multiple packages
<zequence> jackd2 jackd2-firewire, etc
<zequence> but not jackdbus
<zequence> Another thing that bugs me is that from a user point of view, you don't see why you need three kinds of jacks. I mean, you know why you need jackdbus, but not why you need the others
<zequence> So, the arguments are on such a technical level, that it has nothing to do with users
<OvenWerks> Right
<OvenWerks> For studio, dbus is best
<zequence> some apps require it
<zequence> and from what I understand, all jack apps support it
<OvenWerks> but if you are going to unload pulse or the bridge, then jackd might be fine
<OvenWerks> But to work right with pulse requires dbus
<zequence> Actually, not sure if you can do everything with jackd2 as you can with jackdbus
<zequence> other than getting the PA module auto create sink and source
<OvenWerks> The more important thing is getting pulse to release the port
<OvenWerks> Without that pule and jack on the same system is broken
<OvenWerks> *pulse
<zequence> Well, that does happen with both jackd(2) and jackdbus
<OvenWerks> I was pretty sure it was a dbus function
<zequence> No, it's something that works for jack2 in general
<zequence> jack1 doesn't have that code though
<zequence> for jack1, we'd need to add a wrapper script. Maybe one that looks for if pulse is using the same card, suspend it, then start jackd
<zequence> it is a dbus thing
<zequence> but jackd(2) does dbus too
<OvenWerks> Ah
<zequence> But, I'm not sure at this point if some apps require jackdbus, like ladish
<OvenWerks> Ok, then why jackd? Or is jackd the same code as jackdbus called different?
<OvenWerks> Or does jackdbus control jackd?
<zequence> This is the problem. It's on a technical level, that requires one to understand the application quite well in order to make an opinion of why one should be used over the other
<OvenWerks> Do any of the jackd2 devs use jackd over jackdbus?
<zequence> I just know that from a user point of view, it's stupid
<zequence> I know that las has very strong opinions about certain things
<zequence> and it seems different people are controlling different sources
<OvenWerks> Or is it just there to satisfy old scripts?
<zequence> no, I think some people prefer jackd over jackdbus
<OvenWerks> Yikes!
<OvenWerks> Jack3 anyone?
<zequence> or just jack
<OvenWerks> Ya.
<OvenWerks> I wish gcdmaster had such supporters.
<zequence> So far I had one response, from Rogin Gareus, who likes to use both during development, so that in my view is not something we need to support in packaging - since a developer could just build one of them locally
<zequence> But, he also mentioned he likes to use many instances of jack with separate cards
<zequence> however, I just think that why not just use jackd when doing multiple
<zequence> but, also, I need to look more into what you can do with jack. which apps support what, and so on
<OvenWerks> I think that is for testing
<zequence> running multiple instances can be good sometimes. but it should be easy to overlook, and control from a user point of view
<zequence> I never have the need for multiple jacks myself though
<OvenWerks> Ya.
<zequence> I can see the point in running jack with one card, and PA with another
<zequence> and even ALSA with a third
<zequence> And sure, being able to run more than one jackd won't harm anyone
<zequence> but, why running both jackdbus and jackd?
<OvenWerks> I don't know if it is possible to run two jackdbus servers
<zequence> me neither. I suspect not
<OvenWerks> so that would be the point of jackd then?
<zequence> Well, actually, I wasn't able to run two jackd's just now
<zequence> so, not sure how Gareus does it
<OvenWerks> You have to give each server a unique name.
<zequence> "`default' server already active
<zequence> Failed to open server"
<OvenWerks> Ya default is the default server name
<zequence> ah
<OvenWerks> I learned that running netjack
<zequence> yeah, now it worked
<OvenWerks> Netjack works as jackdbus too BTW
<OvenWerks> Easier too.
<OvenWerks> zequence: OK now you have two jacks, how does the application decide which to graph to?
<zequence> OvenWerks: No idea :)
<zequence> I was also able to run both jackd and jackdbus, but I think that's a bug
<OvenWerks> If they are both unique names it should be ok.
<zequence> OvenWerks: start patchage - it'll start jackd automatically. start qjackct - jack is running. stop jack with qjackctl - appears to be stopped, but isn't. start jack with qjackctl - now both jackd and jackdbus are running
<zequence> when restarting jack with qjackctl, it appears it starts jackdbus, but shows connections for jack, and probably, jackdbus is only running in the background, not dealing with audio at all
<OvenWerks> Fun fun.
<zequence> another round of kernels about to be released soon
<zequence> this time, one of my builds was corrupted
<zequence> probably due to faulty RAM
<zequence> the error didn't appear until LP tried to build the package
<cub> zequence, in the video player conversation you mentioned that there are blueprints for each workflow, are they available online?
<zequence> cub: Yeah, just a sec
<zequence> cub: Here's an overview of all of them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Blueprints
<zequence> The actual blueprints exist at Launchpad https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-saucy-flavor-ubuntustudio
<zequence> if you scroll down, you'll see a tree of bubbles
<zequence> each "bubble" is a blueprint
<zequence> hover your mouse over them, and you'll see what they are for
<zequence> This is the meta blueprints, which contains all the workflows https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-s-meta
<cub> Ah they are clickable. :)
<cub> thanks
<zequence> cub: Yes, each blueprint includes workitems. That's the actual work that we do
<zequence> anyone could basically just grab a workitem and start working on it
<zequence> but, we prefer that people first go through a bit of a process with setting up their machines for development, and get an overview of how things work first
<cub> Yes, right now I'm trying to learn the process, what is workflow what does it look like and so on
<zequence> just becoming aware of the blueprints is a major step into the right direction
<zequence> well, workflows aren't really that specific
<zequence> I mean, it's just a way to split things up
<zequence> from a use case point of view that is
<cub> yes I thought it would be more like a user story
<zequence> the idea came from our previous project lead, Scott Lavender. He really wanted to push for simplifying user interaction
<zequence> And to do that, you'd categorize things according to use cases, instead of according to more technical terms
<zequence> So, workflows are basically that. From the user point of view
<cub> makes sense
<zequence> There's been talk of creating a workflow application. A side bar that would enable you to keep track of all the stuff you need for your workflow. And who knows, but we don't have any developers working on that. And not really anyone designing it either
<zequence> So, for now, workflows are more about the metas that we have: ubuntustudio-audio, -video, etc. And our custom menu, which uses the same logic
<zequence> If we could get more people working on things, they could work on one area alone, and not mind so much about what someone else was doing
<zequence> So, if one works on video, they don't need to worry about audio
<zequence> That's another reason to split things up
<zequence> right now, the few people we have do a bit of this and that
<zequence> there's no time to go into detail
<zequence> at least not with everything
<cub> Quite interesting. I have been using US for so long but never had any thought I could actually help out in some way until now
<zequence> doesn't need to be a big deal either. Some people of course needs to get deep into it, as the whole thing is quite a lot to keep track of. but, you can also just pick something that interests you, anything, and work at it for a couple of weeks, and then leave it
<zequence> I'm here cause I hate when things don't work, and realized I could do something about it
<cfhowlett> zequence, is the new art head still on the team?  I sent an email yesterday but no reply ....
<zequence> cfhowlett: He is. What about? I'm sure he's just busy
<cfhowlett> I offered some suggestions and contact info for the 14.04 wallpaper.  
<zequence> ok. I'm sure he'll get back to you
<cfhowlett> zequence, fair enough.  thank.
<cfhowlett> thanks.
<zequence> I'm getting some resistance in making jackdbus and jackd conflict
<zequence> but, should be no problem separating them into their own packages
<OvenWerks> zequence: there may be some use caes where you might run both at once. (d and dbus)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-06
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm going to repackge jack2 to separate jackdbus and jackd, and add a postinstall script asking the user if wanting to keep the other one, if installed
<OvenWerks> ok
<zequence> great, PA was just updated for 12.04 and 12.10
<OvenWerks> I would suggest a tutorial on starting jackdbus and inputting it's settings from command line :)
<zequence> you can still use qjackctl to control it
<zequence> and a bunch of other apps
<zequence> it would be good to do video tutorials on jack usage
<OvenWerks> zequence: I understand qjackctl can be used, but there are people who use jackd because all the CL instructions are based on jackd not jackdbus.
<OvenWerks> So if someone is getting help, they will most likely be told how to start jack from the command line.
<OvenWerks> This is another way of saying we have  to retrain holstein ;)
<zequence> hehe
<OvenWerks> But seriously, almost all the trouble shooting tips on LAU are commandline... what did you get kinds of things
<zequence> If the user does a jackd command, he will notice quickly it is not installed
<zequence> and when installing, he'll come to the point where the post install script tells him to choose between the two
<zequence> or, pre install might be better even
<zequence> one which also includes a cancel option
<zequence> we just need to make sure our users know that things have changed after 13.10
<zequence> and in any Debian derived distro
<OvenWerks> How about a wrapper script called jackd that translates a jackd CL into jack_control commands
<zequence> I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve
<zequence> jackdbus is not jackd
<OvenWerks> all the documentation deals with jackd
<zequence> The whole purpose of separating them is to make it so people only use one of them at the time
<OvenWerks> Yes
<zequence> Making them think they are using jackd would only confuse the situation even more
<zequence> for most users, using the command line is not needed. or, it should not be
<OvenWerks> So because all I have read is about jackd that is what I install, now pa - jack bridging doesn't work.
<OvenWerks> This is why documentation is important
<zequence> the second step I'm taking is to make sure any jack app could potentially start jack, if not already running
<zequence> the default setup should be easy as pie
<zequence> then, if someone wants to get advanced, they can
<zequence> I think probably there is need for a toggle option for starting jack by default. Have to look more into that
<zequence> but, by default, I think jack apps should always start jack
<zequence> and PA should autoconnect to it seemlessly
<zequence> then, if people don't like that, they can unset stuff like that
<OvenWerks> Try KDE. the way they have the sound server is more seemless
<zequence> it's pulseaudio, is it not?
<zequence> is't the same module, is it not?
<zequence> what is more seemless?
<OvenWerks> Yes but plus kmix
<zequence> a popup?
<OvenWerks> No, it auto changes the default device to jacksink
<zequence> they all do
<zequence> but, not if the stream is already running
<OvenWerks> Then that is new
<OvenWerks> I'll have to try that
<zequence> I mean, what are you suggesting is controlling things besides PA itself, and the module?
<zequence> are you suggesting KDE adds a way to change stuff for the jack module specifically, that no other DE does?
<zequence> weird grammar there, sorry
<OvenWerks> kmix is a replacement for pavucontrol. It also runs as a pannel or tray app
<OvenWerks> It seems to monitor changes in pa and adapt
<zequence> it's a software mixer. are you suggesting it has a mind of its own? Isn't it just a control interface for PA, like all other mixers?
<OvenWerks> it is not like the other alsa mixers, it is a PA interface like pavucontrol
<zequence> I didn't say ALSA mixers
<OvenWerks> It has all the same controls as pavucontrol plus some
<zequence> why don't you find out first what really is going on, and then decide if kmix actually has anything to do with it
<zequence> from what it seems to me, something in KDE, maybe kmix is sending messages to the notify thing
<zequence> so, you get popups
<OvenWerks> It is not notify only, it chna
<OvenWerks> changes the connections
<zequence> what does?
<OvenWerks> if not kmix then something else in kde
<OvenWerks> outputs get switched from the device to jack on the fly
<OvenWerks> even though jack has not been set as default and does not show up as default in the settings
<OvenWerks> pavucontrol _could_ do the same thing, but leaves that as a manual change
<zequence> AFAIK, pavucontrol is not a process running in the packground. It's a software mixer interface, that doesn't have any automatic functions in itself
<zequence> you just set PA options and levels with it
<zequence> So, I'm not sure what you mean really
<zequence> that's why I'm asking, why don't you find out what is really causing that effect, and whether kmix has anything to do with it
<OvenWerks> but it is aware when jack is started and shows it rightaway. there is no reason it could not also switch routing at that time
<zequence> what is aware?
<zequence> It might be a module that does that
<zequence> OvenWerks: Probably phonon stuff
<zequence> Well, it seems that what can do that are applets
<zequence> pavumixer is not an applet, so it doesn't count
<zequence> it's not a process running all the time
<zequence> but, the volume applet is
<zequence> KDE probably has more stuff going on there, compared to XFCE
<zequence> as might other DEs
<zequence> or the applets used
<zequence> ..with those DEs
<OvenWerks> yup, 
<zequence> I think Gnome probably does that too
<zequence> or, the applet used with gnome-shell
<zequence> might be the same thing with Unity
<OvenWerks> could be.
<OvenWerks> It is on the wish list to be included in PA itself
<zequence> according to a person in #pulseaudio, it's not something that pulseaudio does by itself. maybe they prefer a separate process to do that, all though, it wouldn't hurt to create a module that did that
<zequence> but, then, it would need to cooperate with the applet
<zequence> would be bad if two processes were doing the same thing, and in some cases, in conflict with each other
<zequence> would be simplest if it was a configurable option in PA, and all PA controlling processes were adapted to support that feature
<OvenWerks> yes, what I suggested was that if module-jackdbus-detect was loaded, then jacksink/source should appear just like a device to PA. To be configed to mono, stereo or surround or off. To be made default even when jack is not running, but with a fall over to another device
<OvenWerks> I guess KDE had the same idea...
<zequence> DarkEra: did you try the latest Gnome on saucy?
<zequence> seems to work ok now
<zequence> Not sure how we'll deal with multiple DE support right now. I think maybe we need to reconsider how we support them with our installer
<zequence> ah, wonder if what I wrote appeared or not
<DarkEra> zequence, hi. No, i didn't try it yet
<DarkEra> i'll have another look at it this evening
<zequence> I'm thinking if it might be enough we are able to add our default settings to existing DEs, and artwork
<zequence> but, I need to have a closer look at how that would work first
<zequence> a bit busy atm
<zequence> but, I'll do something about that this week
<zequence> OvenWerks has done some work on getting the menu working on all DEs
<DarkEra> no problem, i'm busy myself too with some other things :)
<DarkEra> oh, that's cool
<DarkEra> the guy i a machine, always busy working on things
<DarkEra> i/is
<zequence> OvenWerks: Does the menu work on non Ubuntu Studio sessions, or how does that work? Just installing the files makes it avilable?
<zequence> available*
<DarkEra> zequence, the package, is it still in your testing ppa?
<DarkEra> just asking because you wanted to move it if i remember correct
<DarkEra> welcome NickG 
<zequence> Hi NickG 
<zequence> Well, there might be stuff that you could do for the website, sure
<zequence> Especially for the 14.04 release
<zequence> which is almost a year away now
<NickG> Yah
<NickG> I like the release schedule of Ubuntu lol
<DarkEra> i so want to Fast Forward to 14.04
<NickG> Whats big with 14.04?
<zequence> I have a staging site, where it is meant we do changes before release, at http://ubuntustudio.mousike.me
<zequence> It's the next LTS release
<NickG> ooo
<DarkEra> exactly :)
<NickG> so that site is a blank template kind of thing where you work in and then update the main site?
<holstein> NickG: AFAIK, its a testing ground
<NickG> good stuff
<zequence> NickG: my connection is a bit bad, so I might have missed if you said something before
<zequence> I was asking you if you had done any Wordpress theming before :)
<NickG> Yeah, actually I've been doing PHP5 and MySQL (the foundation of wordpress) for about a year, and had played around with Wordpress a few times
<NickG> Right now I'm working on a portfolio/blog/multi purpose website that I'm actually building in Wordpress: http://nickgermaine.ca
<holstein> zequence: you gotta get a shell account
<holstein> zequence: i have a free VPS.. you want me to set you up a user?
<holstein> the one i mostly use is nicnac project freeshell
<zequence> that's ok. I really don't understand why I'm having such a problem right now
<holstein> i put thelonius the bot over on this freeVPS when i noticed the terms of nic nac were "no bots"
<zequence> I probably just need to do a renew on my IP or something
<zequence> just been to lazy to fix it, plus I'm always interrupting someones internet connection, if I start messing with it
<zequence> only with irc that I notice it
<holstein> zequence: i just keep IRC in screen/irssi on there. if you are interested in trying that... let me know
<zequence> every 15 min or so
<holstein> zequence: im not doing anything but the bot on the server im talking about
<zequence> holstein: Thanks. If this thing doesn't get sorted out, I might take you up on that offer :)
<zequence> but, I'm sure it'll go away soon
<zequence> NickG: Here's the wordpress theme https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website-wordpress
<zequence> NickG: in order to get it, install bzr
<zequence> sudo apt-get install bzr
<zequence> then, to get the source
<zequence> bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website-wordpress
<zequence> or, if you want..
<zequence> bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website-wordpress ubuntustudio-wp
<zequence> NickG: Feel free to mess around with it
<NickG> Yeah if you could set me up as a user that would be good, sorry I got up to make a coffee and have a smoke
<NickG> I have hosting
<NickG> Can I just do an additional wordpress isntallation and then install the theme?
<zequence> NickG: I think to begin with, if you just want to play around yourself, maybe you only need a local WP instalation to mess around with the theme
<NickG> I haven't managed to get apache working correctly.  I mean I can set it up and isntall webmin (the control panel) but PHP doesn't work even after I install it.  I can't figure that one out.
<DarkEra> zequence, i was able to log in on the VB install but that's about it
<DarkEra> zequence, i guess i'm going to try and install it on another partition. VB just doesn't load the desktops
<OvenWerks> You missed him :)
<OvenWerks> I am going to have to download the ISO and try that too.
<DarkEra> his internet started to play up again
<OvenWerks> I've had that from time to time as well though not since I started using screen on my server.
<DarkEra> OvenWerks, you mean the mini iso?
<OvenWerks> Not the ubuntu gnome
<OvenWerks> s/not.no
 * OvenWerks can't type today
<DarkEra> and my brain is trying to wake up
<DarkEra> :)
<DarkEra> that's what i'm planning to do though cli install and then add the package from zequence's testing repo
<OvenWerks> I'm working from the other end
<DarkEra> need to wake up first, i fell asleep on the sofa earlier... LOL
<DarkEra> so you're going for a full install first and then rip out and add parts?
<OvenWerks> I do the install then add our menu, kernel and some metas.
<DarkEra> i see :)
<OvenWerks> We will see if that is easier and works or if it is better adding a DE meta.
<DarkEra> brb, i need a coffee
<DarkEra> right, got ya
<OvenWerks> Everything is experimental just now.
<NickG> So, developmental question here.  I program in PHP and I'm learning Ruby.  What are Ubuntu programs written in?  If I program something in Ruby, will Ubuntu be able to launch it?  Or is it a different language?
<holstein> NickG: nothing about ubuntu is preventing you from writing an application it can "run"
<holstein> NickG: programs are written in what they are written in, and to over simplify things.. the packages get put in the repos, and they pull in what they need
<OvenWerks> NickG: if you are looking to learn a scripting language, most scripts are writen in python these days
<OvenWerks> Python has libs that will do a GUI in either GTK or QT.
<OvenWerks> We already pull in both libs as far as I know
<holstein> yup. should just work
<OvenWerks> I have not Looked up if we have ruby installed or not. I am not on the right partition just now :)
<holstein> its in the repos for sure
<holstein> !info ruby
<ubottu> ruby (source: ruby-defaults): Interpreter of object-oriented scripting language Ruby (default version). In component main, is optional. Version 4.9 (raring), package size 4 kB, installed size 31 kB
<OvenWerks> But the ruby libs are available in ubuntu
<NickG> Ok
<NickG> I was just wondering.
<NickG> I got caught up trying to help someone in #ubuntu it is crazy over there
<NickG> I did install a QT maker program, but it doesn't show me the code or anything.  I will learn python then
<OvenWerks> There are some good tutorials available if you look around.
<NickG> Good stuff
<NickG> I'll put off Ruby then
<NickG> Thanks
<OvenWerks> I am just starting on that myself, I have been using tk/tcl for years.
<holstein> python is a decent place to start
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-07
<OvenWerks> zequence: downloaded ubuntu-gnome. Can't run the live ISO.
<OvenWerks> So I am missed :(
<OvenWerks> missed again.
<OvenWerks> zequence: downloaded ubuntu-gnome. Can't run the live ISO.
<OvenWerks> Typing from a VT
<OvenWerks> wILL try up stairs on an intel video chip
<OvenWerks> Ya, works up here
<OvenWerks> Ga!, seems so disorganized
<OvenWerks> I guess I still need an app menu :)
<OvenWerks> As happens, I just had to turn it on
<OvenWerks> The gnome menu seems to be buggy too, but I will have to try over riding it to be sure
<OvenWerks> My menu package seems to work in gnome shell too
<OvenWerks> fixing bug...
<OvenWerks> Hmm, still there...
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if that is because I am on the live ISO or if the menu file is not the one I am tweeking. It may be there is another. gnome shell is ok
<OvenWerks> so long as the menu can be turned on. I have found the app search works well though, once I know what app I am looking for. 
<OvenWerks> I am not used to the way workspaces are accessed either. ut maybe that is just another setting too.
<OvenWerks> ust figgered out workspaces.
<OvenWerks> Nice
<OvenWerks> I could use gnome shell... as well as anthing else. (except unity, though I hear that is getting better)
<zequence> seems like I finally got my connection fixed
<OvenWerks> KDE works best for my desktop though.
<zequence> I had to change the MAC adress on my router to be able to change my IP
<OvenWerks> Ah.
<zequence> I get so weird IP adresses each time I get a new one too
<zequence> they have nothing in common at all
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I would guess our little menu would work with gnome classic too.
<OvenWerks> I have a static
<OvenWerks> scott.cbbs.org, aka www.ovenwerks.net
<OvenWerks> It means wecan have our own web mail set up
<OvenWerks> No adds
<OvenWerks> (ads?)
<OvenWerks> Anyway my wife would like her computer back :)
<zequence> Unity seems to be using their own set of categories, for application search
<zequence> not sure, but it seems that way
<zequence> gnome-shell is not a problem for us anyway
<zequence> I was not able to load Gnome classic just now
<OvenWerks> zequence: The desktop files (at least the ubuntu ones) have tags as well as categories.
<OvenWerks> Take a look at the USC one for an example.
<cub> Hi zequence , I saw in the logs that you and NickG talked about Wordpress. I've been fiddling with sites based on Wordpress as well if I can be to any help
<zequence> cub: How advanced would you say you are at php coding?
<cub> Not much. I can make wordpress and phpbb look like I want them too, but I'm not a coder
<zequence> Well, let's see if Nick can be of some help first. He seems to be fairly advanced. Also, we always have knome, the Xubuntu lead, the author of the theme
<zequence> cub: What do you usually use Ubuntu Studio for?
<cub> Yes, I was going to ask Nick about his issues with local set up with Apache. I run a couple of local development sites with nginx without any issues
<cub> My main reason was for audio recording. But I use it as my main laptop which means gimp work, web design, video editing, libre office and paying bills
<zequence> cub: If you'd like to help, getting a closer look at our applications, and whether they are well configured and built is something none of us really have the time to do
<zequence> I posted a mail about that on the mail list
<zequence> audio is a big workflow
<zequence> I suppose there's plenty of stuff in graphics and video too
<cub> The one about "Contributors needed to define our workflows"?
<zequence> Yeah
<cub> yeah, that's why I asked about the blueprints earlier. I'm trying to figure out what the workflows actually are
<cub> I was also thinking about the youtube tutorials. Is there a graphic profile available for ubuntu studio, or should I ask the art work team directly?
<zequence> What do you mean by graphic profile?
<zequence> We really only have one guy doing art right now
<zequence> that's our art lead, madeinkobaia
<cub> :)
<zequence> I have a hand in everything, all though, not in producing art so much
<cub> Graphic profile that states what logos to use, font, sizes, colors and so on.
<cub> I suppose we should use a title page before all tutorials as well as an end page for credits and information on where to find more info
<cub> and that they all look the same in terms of logo, colors and fonts
<zequence> That's something we can do afterwards
<cub> Yup
<zequence> After a few tutorials have been made
<zequence> plus, we can re-edit them
<zequence> I think it's just up to anyone who wants to make a tutorial, to set the tone
<zequence> on artwork, best to talk with madeinkobaia
<cub> I figure we might start out with a tutorial on how to make tutorials. :D
<cub> will do
<zequence> simple is best
<zequence> all we need is a intro page, and as you suggested, a outro page
<zequence> and subs
<zequence> the best place to start would be to create the actual tutorial first
<cub> yes, but some guidelines and perhaps a template would be nice to have
<cub> so we don't end up with Comic Sansâ¦..
<zequence> sure, but first we need a tutorial to work on
<zequence> the person who start working on it, will most likely be the person who decides the style
<zequence> with feedback from the community
<cub> I'd better hurry up then
<zequence> there's a nice word that I picked up from some Debian text, describing the organization
<zequence> do-ocracy
<cub> heh
<zequence> Doesn't mean everyone's free to do whatever they want, but as long as no one is having any problems with something, I think it's up to the person who does the work
<zequence> often only one or two people will be even interested in a certain aspect of things
<zequence> which makes the chain of decision making pretty simple
<cub> sry, gotta focus on some work stuff
<cub> Is the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/ discontinued?
<OvenWerks> I haven't looked at it, but we have not had a meeting in a long time.
<OvenWerks> Like maybe a year and a half or more.
<OvenWerks> I'll be back in a while... gotta pick my son up.
<cub> last meeting minutes on the page was from 2012 so it seems about right.
<zequence> There aren't enough active devs in order for there to be a reason to have meetings
<zequence> besides, we know pretty well what we need to do
<cub> Aha, I
<cub> 'm just looking around reading different areas to get a grip on things
<OvenWerks> zequence: the applications menu in gnome shell.. from shell extensions doesn't seem to understand submenus.
<OvenWerks> I'm running ubuntu gnome. and have found that the gnome classic login doesn't work either
<OvenWerks> That may be as a result of a gnome 3 upgrade where gnome classic doesn't exist any more.
<NickG> I'd reinstall gnome classic if possible.
<NickG> I tried to install gnome, but it gave me this terrible gnome 3 :(
<NickG> is mate a possibility?
<OvenWerks> I am not sure what is up with mate or cinnamon
<OvenWerks> Mint is the iso to try it with
<OvenWerks> I think one is based on forked gnome2 libs and the other gnome3 libs
<DarkEra> cinnamon will become a more or less independent DE in the near future afaik
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-08
<DarkEra> still didn't get the desktop loaded in VB by the way, i guess i'll be installing a cli tomorrow on another partition when i find some time
<OvenWerks> The gnome menu file is broken in the same way as the xfce menu file :P
<OvenWerks> but fixing the file while letting us do menu layout still doesn't fix the no submenu problem
<OvenWerks> zequence: my opinion is that it is not worth adding our menu to the gnomeshell menu extension.
<OvenWerks> At least not till it gets fixed.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Gnome might not be worth the trouble, but if you like, have a look at cinnamon
<zequence> There was news about Cinnamon going to drop Gnome3 dependency all together and become a full standalone desktop system, so it'll probably change in the future some
<OvenWerks> Just looking at the web page, The version of the menuin ubuntu gnome seems a ways behind. 
<OvenWerks> I tried to install cinnamon, but was unable to login to the de even with the intel graphics chip
<zequence> Seems like my patch may have caused a regression. bug #1188881
<ubottu> bug 1188881 in jackd2 (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/jackd:8:__udivdi3:Jack::JackFrameTimer::ResetFrameTime:Jack::JackEngineControl::NotifyXRun:Jack::JackEngine::NotifyXRun:Jack::JackDriver::NotifyXRun" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1188881
<OvenWerks> It may be because I tried to install it on the same machine as ubuntu gnome and there was a lib conflict
<zequence> Well, I don't think there should be any lib conflict because of it. Dependencies are the same
<zequence> ..as before. The patch only adds a few lines of code here and there to the pre-existing package
<OvenWerks> Someone says your chnage and the problem do not seem connected
<zequence> One needs to be accepted to Ubuntu's error tracker in order to see the whole story
<zequence> That guy Langasek believes it might be compiler related
<OvenWerks> should be easy to test
<zequence> DarkEra: What's the story behind your nickname anyway?
<zequence> Sounds like a great old death metal band
<zequence> or the name of one
<zequence> Makes me nostalgic almost
<DarkEra> nothing special, when i joined in on the dutch ubuntu forums and irc back in 2007/2008 i just came up with it and used it since then
<zequence> NickG: I did a few small changes to the website yesterday, I think it was. Added some links to the side panel http://ubuntustudio.org/
<NickG> good stuff
<NickG> I haven't looked at it enough yet to know what is new there lol
<zequence> I think what we should focus on with the website is really just make it as accessible as possible
<NickG> I got a day planned with my wife today but tomorrow I'm going to go in through ftp and download the wp-content and make a new installation on my server and put it in there
<NickG> I like accessibility
<NickG> What we run into eventually is accessibility < clutter
<NickG> I've seen a lot of websites, and a lot of them are just... heavy
<NickG> I like the layout, its all logical too
<zequence> One thing that I might like to change is how the text is displayed
<NickG> font/color?
<zequence> Size does never need to be particularly small, unless we're talking about footnotes
<zequence> Some of the text is hard to see, it's a bit too grey
<zequence> Or not enough black
<NickG> I notice that when I click the links on the right hand side (facebook profile, G+, etc) it opens in the same tab, taking people away from the site.  we should add target="_blank" to each link to make it open in a new tab
<zequence> That's a good thing to do, yeah
<NickG> personally, black on white is VERY contrasting, usually a dark grey over lighter grey or white ends up looking more polished
<NickG> any text in specific you're referring to?
<zequence> As long as it's easy to read
<zequence> I just want the text to be instantly readable
<NickG> I find it is already
<zequence> Really? I feel there are a few things that could be improved
<NickG> where exactly?
<zequence> Are you saying you can't think of anything that could make the text look better?
<NickG> I did notice when I go to the articles page, the date/category font is extremely light
<NickG> considering it's on a white background
<zequence> I also think the text size is a bit small
<zequence> this may depend a bit on browser, screen, etc
<NickG> it could for sure
<zequence> but, overall, I think it's too small
<NickG> It looks about 11 or 12 px
<zequence> The synopsis of the news on the first page could be improved as well
<zequence> Right now, it doesn't include line breaks
<NickG> Yeah
<NickG> I notice that flaw in wordpress
<zequence> And it would be nice if it also included a thumbnail of either artwork or a video
<NickG> the php script telling it how/where to display content can be changed to include line breaks
<NickG> for each article?
<zequence> Sure
<NickG> do-able for sure
<zequence> We only show 4 posts at the front page right now
<zequence> I've set the amount so that the vertical size works
<zequence> We don't need to show more than 5 posts anyway
<NickG> Another thing... this might be crazy but it seems like it's using a generic font.  What about using the ubuntu type-font for the content?  or one similar?
<NickG> yah
<zequence> I'm up for anything, so if you think it'll look nice, try it
<NickG> users can access all of the articles, so it makes sense to have 4 or 5 latest posts on front page
<NickG> And the text in the main banner area is definitely small
<NickG> it should draw more attention because it is the first thing people see, so it needs to capture their attention
<zequence> you mean "ubuntu studio"?
<NickG> no
<NickG> where it has the "Welcome to ubuntu studio" 
<NickG> "Ubuntu Studio is a free and open operating system for creative people.
<NickG> We provide the full range of multimedia content creation applications for each of our workflows: audio, graphics, video, photography and publishing." could be a bit bigger
<zequence> Ok, in the program they are called fron tabs
<NickG> ok
<zequence> front tabs
<NickG> Good stuff.  tonight I'll make an installation and play around with these things
<NickG> I gotta run to get groceries now, though
<zequence> No hurry. We don't really need to make any changes until 14.04, so you have lots of time to play around with it
<NickG> ok
<NickG> I'll be on later
<zequence> See you later
<NickG> have a good day
<zequence> I'll be away, btw
<zequence> You too
<NickG> ok
<OvenWerks> Server crashed :P  moved PS and Drive to older machine... works.. sort of
<OvenWerks> I have eth0 and eth2 instead of 0 and 1
<OvenWerks> It seems the os has remembered the internel eth1 if from the other mb.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-09
<cub> Hi NickG, I put up my tutorial on installing a local LEMP server yesterday
<cub> zequence: are you around?
<zequence> cub: Yeah
<cub> hi, I was just playing around with recordmydesktop to do tutorials
<cub> and installed the gtk-recordmydesktop as well, and it was placed in the menus under "Media Playback"
<cub> perhaps it should be moved to Video Production?
<zequence> cub: Len does the menu customization mostly
<zequence> OvenWerk1: ^
<cub> aha. Perhaps that's changed in 13.04 though?
<cub> since it's installed by default then I think?
<zequence> haven't checked
<cub> strange, it will not capture my whole screen. A small bit on the left and right of screen is cut
<cub> ok that's just how it works. 1366x768 will be recorded at 1354x768.
<zequence> cub: If you want jack support, you need a patched version of the program I think
<zequence> I have built one for raring here https://launchpad.net/~zequence/+archive/testing?field.series_filter=raring
<cub> To start out I'm not going to do any voice over so I record with no sound
<OvenWerk1> zequence: we lost two computers yesterday...
<OvenWerk1> 10 hours apart.
<OvenWerk1> My server has been downgraded to a 300mhz pentium :P
<OvenWerk1> It looks like I will have to go through all my service startup scripts and add 120 second delays so that the if is actually running
<OvenWerk1> zequence: You have probably seen this.. but: http://git.kernel.org/linus/e194401783
<OvenWerk1> zequence: sent a note to the qjackctl author. Asking if it is possible for qjackctl before starting jackdbus, to check for a running jackd server.
<OvenWerk1> If found, qjackctl could either just run jackd mode till next jackd stop or stop that instance and restart. It could put up a dialog to ask which to do or be a setting.
<OvenWerk1> It should look to see that the running jackd has the same sever name as what it wants to start... just in case someone is trying to run two jack servers :)
<NickG> In regards to Cubs statement: I installed Kazaam (a screenshot tool) and it too defaulted to the media playback submenu.  I was looking everywhere for it.
<OvenWerk1> NickG: Kazam was not something I thought of I will probably have to change that. I have to install both of them to make sure I get the right desktop file name.
<NickG> Right on.  It's easy enough for me to change what menu that appears in, it just kinda threw me off there for a few minutes.
<OvenWerk1> I guess I had better do "recorditnow" (for KDE while I am at it.
<OvenWerk1> NickG: recordmydesktop is already moved to video. I will do kazam and recorditnow as well.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I had a talk with Rui about qjackctl
<zequence> according to him, qjackctl was never featured to stop jack, if not started by qjackctl
<zequence> I made a case about why it should
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I'll have a look at if that patch got through to our kernel, or not
<OvenWerk1> zequence: Ya, but even if qjackctl alerted the user there was another one running it would be helpful. Also, I have found that not true :) It will always stop a jackdbus version started by jack_control for example. (at least it has for me) I think if qjackctl is in jackd mode it does too, but I would have to look.
<OvenWerk1> I think people just don't expect something to be running if they didn't start it.
<zequence> it doesn't
<zequence> It only stops jackd that it started itself
<zequence> it appears to stop jackd, but it doesn't
<zequence> jack is often started by jack applications
<OvenWerk1> dbus is probably what I was thinking of then.
<zequence> which I think is how it should work anyway
<OvenWerk1> In any case, I think qjackctl should detect that jack is running as a d even if it is set up for dbus. Give a dialog offering to just use the one that is running, or not and fail in an obvious manner if the user asks to start anyway and the device is being used by the first jack already running.
<OvenWerk1> The dialog should tell the user that qjackctl settings will not affect an already running jack as well.
<zequence> That I believe it does. If you change a setting, and click OK, it let's you know that
<OvenWerk1> I don't know if the non-dbus jack has a way for a process to tell it to exit
<OvenWerk1> Ya but there is no dialog that says "there is already a jackd running, I may not be able to start a new server, <connect to the running jack> <start a new jack server> <Cancel>"
<zequence> when you start qjackctl, and jack is already running, qjackctl is in active mode
<zequence> you can make conections and everything
<zequence> when you click stop, it looks like you stopped jack
<zequence> but you didn't
<zequence> when you click start, you just make qjackctl active with jack again
<OvenWerk1> Only if qjackctl is in non-dbus mode and the one already started is also jackd. If jackd is running and qjackctl is set to jackdbus, it doesn't seem to know there is one running.
<OvenWerk1> If qjackctl has dbus turned off, it will find a running jackd or running jackdbus
<zequence> That's not how it works for me
<zequence> the only difference is, when you stop and then start, starting again will start jackdbus
<zequence> So, you end up having both jackd and jackdbus running
<OvenWerk1> Not here. I started jackd with jackd -d  alsa -d hw:1 in a terminal.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Which release is that?
<zequence> or, which version of qjackctl
<OvenWerk1> Then I started qjackctl. Nope maybe he has already fixed that.
<zequence> he didn't say he had to me
<OvenWerk1> That should fix our problem then
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Could you please let me know which qjackctl version you are running before stating problem fixed
<OvenWerk1> You are right it doesn't stop the server though
<OvenWerk1> .3.10
<zequence> ok. I'll try it soon too
<zequence> though, if jack is running, a jack control application should always show it
<zequence> and be able to stop it, no matter which kind of jack it is
<OvenWerk1> Also, if I tell qjackctl to stop jackd, it says it does... which as you say it shouldn't... but if I restart qjackctl it again shows jackd running.
<zequence> yes, as I just said
<OvenWerk1> So yes qjackctl should confirm that jackd has gone away. And it should be able to force it to go away
<zequence> it appears to be stopping jack, when it in fact qjackctl is just being deactivated
<OvenWerk1> qjackctl does stop a jackdbus started by jack_control though.
 * OvenWerk1 wanders off for lunch
<zequence> jackdbus is designed for a single instance only, so that makes sense
<cub> I couldn't find the background image for the web site in the ubuntustudio-art, could I get a copy somewhere?
<zequence> cub: it's in the website source
<zequence> just a minute
<zequence> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website-wordpress
<zequence> cub: ^
<zequence> It's not a background image though
<zequence> there's at least two graphical elements
<cub> Excellent, thanks
<cub> Hmm I see that now
<cub> I thought it would look good as a background for the intro of tutorial videos
<cub> to get some familiarity
<zequence> cub: if you need to use a background image, use the G+ cover
<cub> There's not much space for the information about the video, such as title
<cub> I'll see what I can come up with..gotta go
<holstein> OvenWerk1: im just getting back.. but i think i missed what you pinged /me about
<OvenWerk1> holstein: Ya, it was a firewire issue, but turned out to be just jackd already running.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-06-02
<zequence_> Last week wasn't that fruitful for me. Let's hope this one is better.
<zequence> I'd roll upp my sleeves, had it not been too damn hot for them.
<zequence> Funny that Xubuntu would introduce a new -core meta. 
<zequence> It's not as barebone as the lubuntu core. Seems to have most of what we need, so I'm thinking it would be good for our smaller ISO.
<OvenWerks> zequence: welcome back.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Thanks
<zequence> So far, from what I understand, the control option REPLACES is only useful when making a package conflict with another
<zequence> Haven't read much about it, tbh.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think it matters what order packages are installed too. For example we have to have the ISO creator see the av extra packages before it gets to the packages that depend on the the non-extra packages.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure that apt-get is so picky... or at least it is possible to have it defer looking at depends untill it has looked at all the packages in it's install list... or even not at all.
<OvenWerks> Systray is acting up. The system tray icon for qjackctl is only showing up sometimes in the past few days.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, seems to be something to do with rebooting VS. logout/in. Works fine on reboot.
<OvenWerks> That probably means timing as the machine is bussier at boot, I would think.
<OvenWerks> As a note I have it starting as a session service at session start. It seems to be fine if started sometime after a login.
<OvenWerks> I have been working with jackdbus as my session soundserver by default which seems very solid. Pulse still takes care of desktop sound but has been set not to see any audio interfaces so that when jack is not there it defaults to dummy sink.
<OvenWerks> I was thinking of suggesting this as the default setup for Studio, but wanted to live with it for sometime first. I am using qjackctl to start jack and a2jmidid, but a script may be better, It can be tuned to work with other things such as pulse. Right now I have to get qjackctl to start jackdbus in a similar time as apulseaudio -k. A script could be named such that jack was already up and running before pulse tried to start.
<OvenWerks> (or delayed till pulse is fully functional)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-06-03
<zequence> OvenWerks: It's best we make all of that configurable, in -controls, I think. Right now, i want to solve the bigger issues first - how we setup our DE.
<zequence> I created a ubuntustudio-core seed
<zequence> Ah, need to change the structure for our ISO too
<zequence> Also, going to try get upload rights so we don't need sponsors for these uploads
<zequence> We can continue to talk about what -core should contain. Right now, I simply moved all core type components from audio into a new seed file
<zequence> Applying 16th of June.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I agree about making it configurable and also about it not being something that should be added right now.
<OvenWerks> I am experimenting just to see what works.
<OvenWerks> I will have to start working with 14.10 directly though. The problem is that pulse (and some other things) are started before the xfce session manager by upstart. Upstart will not ship with 14.10 and I do not know if pulse will be started by systemd or something else.
<OvenWerks> I did make a simple script that starts jackdbus, a2jmidid and then respawns pulse with some sleeps to make things work. I made everything I could think of a variable so that instead of setting it in the same script, it can be read in from a config file.
<OvenWerks> Soon as the new ISO is up I will play with that though. I will look at the seeds after work.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Sure. My plan is, ubuntustudio-controls is set to autostart, and will check what configs the user chose, then start processes from there
<zequence> OvenWerks: I managed to cause mayhem in the Ubuntu germinate process for building the ISOs :P
<zequence> last two commits to seeds were reverted
<zequence> Seems like I need to dive my head into that again
<OvenWerks>  :)
<OvenWerks> Ah, so everything ends up in one seed file. What does germinate do? I would guess it creates a list of packages/subseed files
<OvenWerks> So germinate would have to be run twice?
<OvenWerks> (once for each ISO)
<OvenWerks> zequence: From what I can see I think the build script has to be changed along with the seeds. The script in the build package seems to have each ISO that may be built listed... or at least it looked that way.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think in this case it had to do with inheritance - the failure. I decided to do changes first, then ask someone to make sure we get an ISO
<zequence> I need to learn how it all happens, so that one can test changes locally first
<zequence> docs are pretty bad, of course
<zequence> There is a bunch of info in ubuntu-cdimage, if I remember correctly
<zequence> lp:ubuntu-cdimage
<zequence> OvenWerks: Seems the big problem came down to me not declaring the new desktop-minimal in STRUCTURE. Will try again tomorrow
<zequence> The seeds can be tested locally with germinate
<zequence> Might be good to do that, especially when creating new seed files like I did
<OvenWerks> zequence: from http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/ubuntu-cdimage/mainline/view/head:/README
<DalekSec> zequence: Do you need any help?
<OvenWerks> As you can see, it is possible to publish two sets of images into the same
<OvenWerks> release directory, provided that they have different types (the "install"
<OvenWerks> and "live" arguments).
<OvenWerks> DalekSec: Ya, we want to create two versiohns of a live ISO
 * OvenWerks must be using sausages for typing
<OvenWerks> It seems the README is quite old (2005), I am not sure that things actually still work the same way.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-06-04
<zequence> OvenWerks: To test locally, one needs to have platform.utopic in the same dir as ubuntustudio.utopic. Found at lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/platform.utopic
<zequence> Then: germinate -S file:///home/me/repos/ -s ubuntustudio.utopic
<zequence> ..assuming both seeds are in the /home/me/repos/ dir
<zequence> Oh, and do the germination in any temporary dir, since it will be filled with a bunch of files
<zequence> I'll update our docs on that
<zequence> I was able to readd a new cd-live and desktop-minimal, without having them crash
<OvenWerks> zequence: good to know about platform. Makes sense as soon as you said it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-06-05
<OvenWerks> zequence: about running jackdbus the whole session, qjackctl by default stops jack on exit. I know we are not worrying about this right now, but wanted to mention it so maybe one of us remembers at the time. In the long run it may be better to concider qjackctl replaced by -controls and patchage.
<OvenWerks> qjackctl is a great jack starter and patchbay, but we would no longer need a jack starter.
<OvenWerks> Another thought for -controls is something that displays any jack servers that are running and provides a way of killing unwanted jackd processes, though starting jackbus at session start should stop second jackds from starting.
 * OvenWerks is off to work
<OvenWerks> zequence: further to my earlier musings... I am guessing the -controls might turn jack as session audio server off and on and so it would be reasonable to change the users qjackctl config at that time. In fact there could be a button for "update qjackctl" that would set device, rate, latency as well.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it is interesting that qjackctl defaults to 44.1k and jackdbus itself defaults to 48k
<OvenWerks> however, I think I found qjackctl defaults to 48k at home and is set to 44.1k for debian/ubuntu packages.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-06-06
<zequence> OvenWerks: The Ubuntu version of qjackctl has a patch that sets rate to 44.1 by default
<zequence> Been away for a couple of days. Sort of a long weekend here for us.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-06-08
<OvenWerks> zequence: I see you have added cd-live back in, but there does not seem to be a build (ISO) yet. What still needs to be done?
<zequence> OvenWerks: Probably a change in the build scripts. I was asking about that a couple of days ago on -release, but didn't get any assistance. Will look into it when I have time
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-06-02
<OvenWerks> zequence: just looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudioMenu again. I think we can filter AudioVideoEditing to be either Audio or Video so long as only one of Audio or Video is also included as a category. For example Ardour which ships (from ardour.org) with AudioEditing, Could work with AudioVideoEditing so long as it also had Audio but not Video. When Debian packages it they just delete any catego
<OvenWerks> zequence: Are the sub-categories/submenus in the order they should be in the menu? They are alpha right now... I am going to assume we will leave things this way and try some things out.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it looks like we are going to remove the media playback menu and wrap the items into Audio and video menus. If we do so, we may want more submenus :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: another thing missing is things that are both Audio and Settings. In the settings manager I have put an Audio Production section (probably so I could use the same *.directory file) That has LADI Control Center and LADI Log File Viewer in it. Should there be a video section?
<OvenWerks> ls
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-06-03
<OvenWerks> zequence: Inlining menus does not seem to work on xfce
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have also been unable to change a separator from ____ to some text.
<zequence> OvenWerks: We might not be able to do all changes to the desktop files by the time for next release, so the menu may need to be as is until then.
<zequence> We should aim at making the meny work with the future desktop files, not the ones we have now
<zequence> I forgot about the custom freedesktop categories, that just begin with X-. Should not be too hard to get X-DAW accepted upstream
<holstein> we should be able to get what we need up there
<holstein> with the freedesktop folk
<holstein> im sure others are having the same issue.. and then, the dev's can just put them where they want them, and we can respect that..
<holstein> rather than having all the audio folk deal with it on their own
<holstein> not that there are that many.. or that many complaining about a menu..
<holstein> well, i joined the email list, and posted... i'll let you know if i hear anything
<holstein> i just cant imagine this being exclusive to our community.. its gotta be a linux-wide issue that we may be able to address upstream
<zequence> holstein: We're not really at the point where we are proposing any changes upstream yet, since we do not have a definitive list of stuff to recommend to be changed
<zequence> But, of course, if you can get some answers on how we can do that, that would be great
<holstein> i think *everyone*, including the creators of the  applications can agree, there are no catagories for the applications
<zequence> We should first finish the categorization of all packages that have desktop files in the Debian sections sound, graphics and video
<holstein> sure.. but that would take care of that
<zequence> There are some categories that are not being used
<zequence> What would take care of that?
<holstein> the creators can catagorize the packages, in compliance with freedesktop standards, that would just work for everyone
<holstein> rather than, our "band-aid" for ubuntustudio
<zequence> IT's not band-aid
<holstein> its specific to just our repos
<zequence> It's us doing what the upstream devs have not done properly first
<holstein> yup
<zequence> It's for all Debian, and then for all Linux
<holstein> and, it may be a similar amount of effort to just do it up there
<zequence> We don't do the changes in Ubuntu. We do them in Debian
<zequence> Where?
<holstein> upstream
<zequence> Someone needs to change the desktop files
<holstein> right
<zequence> And, that's what we are doing
<holstein> the creators of them can, if there are appropriate catagories
<zequence> There are already a lot of them, that aren't being used
<holstein> yup.. OvenWerks and i looked at them
<zequence> Then, we need to figure out, while we do the categorization, what else we need to add
<holstein> i dont think it would be much effort to clean them up
<holstein> add/remove
<zequence> You're welcome to participate in that
<holstein> thanks
<holstein> i am participating right now, by joining that mailing list, and asking about the categorization there
<zequence> Yes, of course, but I meant to do the actual categorization work
<zequence> There's one example for ardour3 on how it's done https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications
<holstein> right.. but, i think we have been batting around categories for a while
<zequence> Ross Gammon made some suggestions on the mail list on how to find which package has a desktop file
<holstein> i think, we just need to nail something down, and then, someone/s can just implent the changes
<zequence> That's exactly what that page is about
<holstein> there are *many* suggestions
<zequence> No, there aren't
<holstein> zequence: cool
<holstein> im going out now.. just let me know when its all settled, and i'll let you or OvenWerks know what i hear on that list
<zequence> Sure
<holstein> im sure theres a wiki page about it..
<zequence> About what?
<holstein> the proposed menu structure..
<holstein> what goes where, and why
<holstein> and, who decides.. and then, we just make the chagnes
<zequence> Yes, and you can read all about it on the mail list. But, we are not there yet where we can start working on the menu properly
<zequence> Since the categories haven't been dealt with in the actual desktop files
<holstein> yes.. "properly"
<holstein> so, outline that, and we'll have at it..
<holstein> or, OvenWerks can?
<zequence> This is the order in which we need to do stuff, ok..
<zequence> 1. we do the categorization for all desktop files in the Debian/Ubuntu repos in these three pages:
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/GraphicsApplications
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/VideoApplications
<zequence> Once we are done, we make changes to desktop files upstream
<zequence> Then, or at the same time, we recommend changes in freedesktop categories
<holstein> sounds great
<zequence> Finally, we are able to make the menu auto-populate from the existing desktop files
<zequence> We can draft the menu now, but we can't make it work until the desktop files have been changed
<holstein> having the sections, and knowing what goes where..
<zequence> Yeah
<holstein> seems as simple as "ardour - audio - DAW" or whatever.. and someone just has to be in charge of that categorization.. and i dont have any preference, personally
<holstein> i dont use a menu, so, it doesnt bother me.. but, at some point, someone just has to make the call.. and i was just saying *if* the categories were decided, then, that categorization could be done, in many cases, by the creators of the applications
<holstein> i have run into the issue with trying to burn a data iso with brasero, and having to find it in an audio menu.. but, its got to go somewhere
<zequence> Well, if that were true, they would make use of the ones that already exist
<holstein> zequence: i dont think anyone has offered to address it up there
<zequence> Freedesktop is not the main problem. The actual desktop files are
<holstein> zequence: the ones that already exisit actually look like maybe someone from myth, etc, has been there
<holstein> well, i think we could get into a chicken or egg things, here. but, im not suggesting no one edit a desktop file
<zequence> It's not like that, once you realize which is the front and back of the horse
<zequence> WHich, I'm not sure you are doing yet
<holstein> all im saying is, the categories we, ubuntustudio, and the actual creators of many of these applications, dont have a suitable menu item in freedesktop
<holstein> so, they dont catagorize them, as such
<zequence> I have already stated many times, that there are suitable freedesktop categories that aren't being used
<zequence> Also, devs upstream are probably not putting a lot of focus on this
<zequence> This is why we have to do the work, since no one else will
<holstein> if there are suitable ones, then, there shouldnt be any problem..
<zequence> The problem is in that they aren't being used properly in the desktop files
<zequence> Also, we may need a few additional ones
<holstein> additional what?
<zequence> Freedesktop categories
<holstein> you mean, additional ones that are *not* in the suitable set you mention?
<zequence> ones that don't exist yet
<holstein> becuase *thats* what im talking about
<zequence> But, only a very few
<zequence> And, those aren't the main problem, as I've been trying to convey here
<zequence> The main problem is that the ones that exist aren't being used
<zequence> Get it?
<holstein> who's not using them?
<holstein> debian? ubuntu?
<zequence> The original devs for each piece of software that has a desktop files
<zequence> file*
<holstein> i think the entire issue is going to be more and more challenging as things just move away from a menu.. a traditional menu
<holstein> anyways, im sure its more challenging than i understand
<zequence> At first glance putting a category on something may seem trivial, but the more you categorize, the trickier it gets
<holstein> i mean, if we are talking about just you and OvenWerks editing a couple thousand desktop files in the debian repos. thats not cool
<holstein> i dont edit those.. i dont know that i can, or should
<zequence> I'm not sure OvenWerks is about to change any desktop files-
<holstein> if its something we can file bugs about, and get someone else to address, easily, maybe thats the way
<zequence> But, I can do that in Debian
<zequence> The big work is in drafting the suggested changes, which is what the wiki pages are about
<holstein> im not following
<zequence> I have access to the Debian multimedia sources
<holstein> as i read above, the suggested change is "fix what isnt implemented"
<zequence> So, I can make changes there in desktop files
<holstein> the broken-ness..
<holstein> if they are already categorized.. and those desktop files are just "bad".. 
<zequence> holstein: Take a look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications
<zequence> There are two columns of real importance
<zequence> FDC (Freedekstop categories)
<zequence> and "Suggested FDC"
<zequence> We first need to check which freedesktop categories are being used for each package
<zequence> Then, we suggest additions/changes for each of those
<zequence> Once we have made suggestions for each, and feel ok with them, we do the changes upstream in Debian
<zequence> I will need to talk with them about it, and as long as no one there disagrees..
<holstein> sure. i'll add a "leave it as-is, only working" column
<zequence> That will make our menu work
<zequence> Right, they were "Current FCD", and "Suggested FDC". Anyway
<zequence> holstein: Don't add columns to the wiki
<zequence> I've made that list with a script
<zequence> "leave as is" can be written under "Suggested FDC"
<zequence> holstein: If you want to help, you can help by researching which categories are used in the existing desktop files
<zequence> That's where we need to start
<holstein> zequence: well, i was joking
<holstein> zequence: they are publically editable
<holstein> what i have time for, right now, is to see where that email goes.. and, i'll check back in
<zequence> I'm going to script the process of listing existing freedesktop categories
<zequence> Would reduce the work load a lot
<elfy> zequence: I see that I'm still listed on release team - going to remove myself from that now, was only needed for the tracker. If in future you want any help with that just shout. 
<zequence> Ok, elfy. Thanks a lot for all the help.
<OvenWerks> zequence: our graphics/publishing/photographics menus already use categories quite heavily. I am not so sure about the 2d/3d categories though. I will try adding them on my own machine to see where things go. It seems that the audio area is the worst one.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think we have time to renew the menu. I can at least put all the existing categories in there and whatever apps we have to place by hand is ok. Then we have a list of apps that need work.
<OvenWerks> zequence: debian changes the catagories when they package anyway. Perhaps we can get them to correct categories rather than deleting wrong ones.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think we should remove all the extra software desktop files. We will no longer really have room for them
<OvenWerks> zequence: also in menuless systems they all show up in a clump which is confusing. One installer is all we need.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-06-04
<zequence> OvenWerks: I suppose we should implement the "extra" feature into ubuntustudio-installer instead.
<zequence> Right, I think you said that.
<zequence> You are free to try things out, of course.
<zequence> There may be a lot less .desktop files for us to handle than I'm figuring, but would be nice to have a scope of the whole thing when working with the menu
<zequence> Well, downloading and installing the entire sound section in the repo now :)
<zequence> Only 2GB of added space on top of the existing Ubuntu Studio installation
<OvenWerks> zequence: most of it must be rosegarden... or it's manual
<zequence> OvenWerks: lol
<zequence> The graphics section was a bit larger. Perhaps 3GB of added space
<zequence> Video, by far the smallest
<zequence> Might have been around 300MB
<zequence> The whole amount of desktop files will still be above 500 I think
<zequence> Or, maybe not. But around that figure
<OvenWerks> Thats a lot. Are all of them usable applications?
<OvenWerks> Have you taken out oss only apps?
 * OvenWerks is off to work
<zequence> I'm only looking at the desktop files atm.
<zequence> Don't know how I could make a script know if it was oss only
<OvenWerks> zequence: probably depends of the src would tell you if it was oss only. (shouldn't need to download even)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-06-06
<holstein> zequence: oh, we're doing 15.10 iso testing?
<zequence> holstein: It's up to anyone who wants to. There's no limmit to when you are allowed to test it.
<zequence> But, that's Grants problem.
<zequence> He's trying to install a development version of Ubuntu Studio in order to do development work
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-06
<krytarik> trebmuh: That's just the verify token though.
<geirdal> how?
<geirdal> do it again?
<geirdal> yes it is not my password
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-07
<sakrecoer> brainstorm request: what happens with motion in the second part here? http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/graphics0001-0120.avi
<sakrecoer> likr.. different spin?,  bouncing icon? :D
<sakrecoer> likr.. different spin?,  bouncing icon? :D â
<sakrecoer> argh... tried to make a ping to geirdal and automna with a utf8 arrow upward :D
<sakrecoer> wb back cub! :)
<cub> hi sakrecoer 
<sakrecoer> cub: can i borrow some of your brain power? :) what happens to the second part in here? sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/graphics0001-0120.avi how should the workflow logo and text be animated?
<sakrecoer> now clickable: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/graphics0001-0120.avi
<cub> sakrecoer: not sure what you mean? I think it looks very good as it is
<sakrecoer> cub: i'm not sure either :D i feel like there could be something sexier going on... just not sure what.. i've made it slower tho, 8 seconds instead of 4
<sakrecoer> greidal (aka Guest45743 ) OvenWerks autumna, what do you think about this theme? http://killhellokitty.deviantart.com/art/DeLorean-Dark-1-55-318612217 maybe too dark? it works with everything as far as i can see...
<cub> yeah it was quite fast the one I saw
<sakrecoer> so you don't need to install the theme: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_13-39-35.png the sliders aren't the best i think... but i like it overall..
<sakrecoer> qt looks nice too... but.. maybe that is normal :D
<sakrecoer> oh... but kdenlive looks really bad in it...
<sakrecoer> no, actauly, when kdenlive is set to its dark theme it works very well...
<sakrecoer> but its sometimes too hard to find the border of a window, i think that breaks it for us... check this out, kdenlive on the left and 2 gnome apps on the right, try to figure out where gnome software ends and where fontmanager starts... http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_13-48-12.png
<sakrecoer> yeah... gnome windows have now shadow beneath...
<sakrecoer> *no shadow
<sakrecoer> fixed in a later version apparently.. i like this, but it's risky... http://killhellokitty.deviantart.com/art/DeLoreanDark3-10-8-05232014-408652063
<sakrecoer> this killhellokitty person is good at dark themes.. http://killhellokitty.deviantart.com/gallery/
<autumna> sakrecoer: I like the image
<autumna> I would need to try it out through
<autumna> question when we package things, can we create defaults for the software? e.g. have the kdenlive be using the dark theme when ubuntustudio is installed?
<autumna> sakrecoer: re the titlecard  I don't think you need any more motion, I would slow down a bit the ubuntu studio and the title scenes in all your title cards through, just to give a moment for the watcher to read
<sakrecoer> cool! i'll upload it slowed-down. i also added a sample from the ubuntu-sound pack.
<sakrecoer> autumna: i wish to know that too, that would be awsome! (kdenlive defaults)
<sakrecoer> i settled for this one: http://thearakattack.deviantart.com/art/Unite-the-3rd-Release-539669420
<sakrecoer> but i use "daloa" for the window style. it's blue very close to ubuntstudio blue. makes it easier to know what window is in focus
<sakrecoer> i think i'm going to reach out to the author
<autumna> sakrecoer: personally I like the square style
<sakrecoer> autumna: you mean the window style?
<sakrecoer> if yes: its nice, but so big!
<autumna> window style of the theme yes
<autumna> heh
<sakrecoer> autumna: also, its one of those where it almost impossible to grab the edge
<autumna> ugh
<sakrecoer> almost all window style i find are like that... but daloa works fine
<autumna> I have my custom window style for xfce
<autumna> which I adjusted to be easier to grab, but then again it isn't exactly for public consumption
<autumna> (too decorated)
<autumna> I am not sure how to theme the gtk through
<sakrecoer> autumna: nice! something you have done yourself?
<autumna> yeah, I just used one of the default window themes as template, and worked up from it
<sakrecoer> care for a screenshot share? :)
<autumna> doing so. one sec
<autumna> (this would go easier if I hadn't misplaced my ftp password *sighs* one sec)
<sakrecoer> hehe :)
<sakrecoer> so the resolution is still crap, and the sampling of the ray tracer is low, hence very dirty... but it gives the idea.. http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/graphics0001-0240.avi
<sakrecoer> (just a sketch render basicaly)
<autumna> http://autumnus.net/temp/windowstyle.png
<autumna> that looks good, if I wanted to nitpick, the ubuntustudio bit can go a tiny tiny bit faster
<autumna> whoops forgot to tag sakrecoer
<autumna> ;D
<sakrecoer> interesting style autumna ... it's like mix between old and nu-school
<sakrecoer> i kindof like it...
<autumna> if I wanted to make this for other people I would probably make the inner bit pure black so that it fit with a variety of color setups
<sakrecoer> or transaparent :p
<sakrecoer> (if by "inner bit" you mean the green and the brown line)
<autumna> it works for me, but probably not for everyone ;D (and as I said, no gtk (I think) window styling, because I need to sit down and figure out how
<autumna> not transparent. if you make it transparent then you run into the "cannot grab the edge" problem. 
<autumna> yes that is what I mean
<sakrecoer> transparency becomes a hole?
<autumna> (it also doesn't have a distinction between active and inactive windows which I don't mind, but then again, can bother people)
<autumna> yes
<sakrecoer> the color has no alpha-channel?
<sakrecoer> :'(
<autumna> yeah, same reason as far as I could tell, you cannot do partial transparency
<sakrecoer> hmm... i'm pretty sure gtk3 has partial transparency, but it seems to be a jungle... like, to create theme that makes a desktop uniform, you pretty much have to lern 345196k different themes layout syntax :D
<autumna> yeah
<autumna> it is one of those "I have been meaning to finish this one day" projects (You can tell by now that I have many of them)
<autumna> I might however actually finish this one, because gtk default window style really looks strange when put together with this
<sakrecoer> (^^,)
<autumna> :)
<sakrecoer> what i struggle to find is a monochrome icon theme that i like...
<sakrecoer> that ghost.icon thing is nice, but so many are missing, and its a bit... fat...
<autumna> *nods*
<sakrecoer> http://www.noobslab.com/2013/07/nouvegnome-color-and-gray-icon-sets-for.html but again... so many missing, the point is lost :D
<sakrecoer> also kindof... fat 
<autumna> I try to not do too much customization of that sort. 
<sakrecoer> interesting: http://pobtott.deviantart.com/art/Any-Color-You-Like-175624910
<autumna> there will always be a program that is missing its icon
<sakrecoer> this program applies filters to any icon-set
<autumna> nice
<sakrecoer> last commen was 4h ago and well... it says a lot :D
<sakrecoer> no source... wtf... :D
<sakrecoer> oh.. but... doesnt' look like it has binaries...
<sakrecoer> well.. it says "gnome-panel: no process found" but it works...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: Re: theme... which window is in focus?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: sorry, i moved forward to this one http://thearakattack.deviantart.com/art/Unite-the-3rd-Release-539669420
<sakrecoer> but i use daloa so the focused window becomes visible
<sakrecoer> just a sec, i'll show you..
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_16-06-09.png
<sakrecoer> now... never mind them orange icons :D
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: looks ok, how easy is it to grab a side or a corner for resize?
<sakrecoer> with daloa: super easy
<sakrecoer> much easier then our current default actualy
<OvenWerks> Then I am fine with it.
<OvenWerks> For me the two usability things are easy to tell focus and window handle access.
<sakrecoer> \(^^,)/ and i agree! anyways, we still have little time to fiddle arround and try stuff. i will try reach out to the author of that theme... see what can happen :)
<OvenWerks> How do the dialog windows in Ardour look? (and the meter bridge?)
<sakrecoer> they look good...
<sakrecoer> as far as i have tried...
 * OvenWerks is trying to remember any ardour complaints that were solved by changing theme.
<sakrecoer> import, plugins, atc...
<sakrecoer> *etc...
<OvenWerks> Those ones if one works they all will. Meter bridge is important as many people want to be able to see that from some distance.
<OvenWerks> Ardour 5.* will have themes again.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: meterbridge...?
<sakrecoer> you mean... the mixers... ehm... VU bars? :D
<OvenWerks> window->meterbridge
<sakrecoer> yeah, looks good
<OvenWerks> it uses a different set of colours than the mixer strips.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_16-17-14.png
<OvenWerks> :) :) that is the tiniest meter bridge I have ever seen...
<OvenWerks> (but it does work fine)
<sakrecoer> :) i haven't enabled my monster card, nor my MB 8 outputs :D
<sakrecoer> most of all,, its an empty project :D
<sakrecoer> (i've never seen it before, this meterbridge :D)
<sakrecoer> will sure take advantage of it in the future <3
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I rarely use more than two Audio inputs. But even for something with no drums or keyboard I use 9 to 15 tracks.
<sakrecoer> ya.. i saw later that it displays the tracks :)
<OvenWerks> my standard test session is three audio tracks, 3 midi tracks, one audio bus, one midi bus and one VCA. these days.
<OvenWerks> The other application to try is qtracktor.
<sakrecoer> hm... plugin window is empty...
<sakrecoer> ... in qtractor
<sakrecoer> anyways, here is how it looks: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_16-24-00.png
<OvenWerks> try it with View->Options->Display->Color Theme Wonton Soup and Motif
<OvenWerks> If that is without any internal changes that is fine.
<sakrecoer> doesn' look as good (more win95)
<sakrecoer> but it seems to work
<sakrecoer> here is the mixer (with defult theme)  http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_16-25-10.png
<OvenWerks> If the default picks up the system that is fine.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: here with wonton...
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_16-28-37.png
<sakrecoer> oh... but that is not what you asked for... wait a sec
<sakrecoer> that is not wonton.. its motif.. the theme. not the colors...
 * OvenWerks likes motif window handles :)
<OvenWerks> (if nothing else)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: this time with wonton colors: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-06-07_16-32-11.png
<sakrecoer> (default theme tho :D)
<OvenWerks> either way... the more I see the more I think I am not so picky as other people about colours.
<sakrecoer> is qtractor non-destructive?
<OvenWerks> I don't really know. It is not my favourite tool, so I don't use it much. I am more of a tape recorder person.
<sakrecoer> hm... with wonton colors, the text in the labels when hovering over a button disapears... in default colors its is fine tho...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: no one will go changing colours if the default looks right.
<sakrecoer> :)
<Guest45743> hi :) why am I Guest43
<geirdal> Hi again
<OvenWerks> geirdal: I think your irc client needs to know how to log in...
<geirdal> ?
<geirdal> Ilogged out and back in
<OvenWerks> seems to have worked.
<geirdal> know  Im geirdal again
<geirdal> :)
<geirdal> Sacrecoer: I like the theme this is something that I was takling about. Ilike ghost icons because theyare flat and simple ofcourse it can be better.
<geirdal> it does not even need to be that dark, just darker than what is by default!
<geirdal> I will do some mockups of icons
<geirdal> And yes I will draw all of them by hand If there is no better way!
<geirdal> Dont like NOX theme makes me sleepy, looks like it is in fog and has light (main areas?)
<geirdal> What is the most complete icon them for ubuntustudio? Do you know?
<geirdal> theme
<OvenWerks> geirdal: there really isn't one.
<OvenWerks> geirdal: the icons for the menu are in -menu
<OvenWerks> geirdal: the rest (maybe three) are in -icon-theme
<geirdal> Inkscape do not have dark theme, but a global theme makes it dark!ok. But the icons look like something from my little pony, it almost got all the colors that is available it looks like a toy! It is not possible to take it serious.I take Inkscapes icons and open them with Inkscape, put them to grayscale and save them. Only this is so much better.
<OvenWerks> geirdal: the icon theme has the distro icon and a couple of application icons that are missing (hexter and hdspmixer maybe?)
<OvenWerks> geirdal: the menu icons are in the menu package because the icones have to be there even if the user chooses another icon theme.
<geirdal> ok thanks
<OvenWerks> geirdal: the menu icons can be replaced inside the menu package... or if different (light and dark) Studio icon themes are envisioned, they can be put in the theme package and they will override the ones in the menu package
<geirdal> ok
<geirdal> Can you post the directions? Iam looking here /usr/share/menu no luck :/
<geirdal> but I finde icons there
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> you want to find the icons in an istalled system? or in the package?
<geirdal> I have installed system? yes
<OvenWerks> I guess same place anyway. /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/categories
<geirdal> installed system
<OvenWerks> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-menu/trunk/files/head:/usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/categories/
<OvenWerks> Hmm, also: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-menu/trunk/files/head:/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/categories/
<OvenWerks> The thing to remember is that all icons themes are supposed to inherit the hicolor theme at some point... it may be a theme inherits hicolor which is then inherited by another. etc.
<geirdal> ok this is some point to start with :) thanks
<OvenWerks> So, most applications install their icons to hicolour.
<OvenWerks> Then the theme can inherit and override.
<OvenWerks> Any icons that you don't redo just show from hicolor.
<OvenWerks> As a last resort... pixmaps is checked. (some applications still put stuff in there :P  )
<geirdal> ok hehe this is alot but I will start frome here :)
<OvenWerks> geirdal: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/icon-theme-spec/0.6/
<OvenWerks> there is a Directory Layout.
<geirdal> Iam reading this https://specifications.freedesktop.org/icon-theme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.html
<OvenWerks> That should be the same
<OvenWerks> Oh maybe not. yes that is the better one.
<geirdal> :)
<OvenWerks> It is funny there is both a .11 and a .12, both say .11 inside
<OvenWerks> However .12, even though it says it is .11, does have .12 in the change log.
<geirdal> I have to start somewhere! Right?
<geirdal> Also category Graphic design should be visual Production! makes more sence, graphic artist are not all graphic designers!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-08
<OvenWerks> I don't think there would be a problem with a change like that, just ask sakrecoer 
<geirdal> a little thing thats is bothering me, hehe not a big deal!
<geirdal> but it still bothers me!
<OvenWerks> geirdal: the file to change would be in -menu /usr/share/desktop-directories/
<geirdal> thank i have done it, it looks better :)
<geirdal> looks more welcoming
<sakrecoer> geirdal: "graphic artist are not all graphic designers" the artist and the designer both do graphics, right? :D I'm not against your idea, but i feel "Visual Production" realy means "Graphics". TBH i never realized the menu says "Design" since we mostly talk about the "graphics workflow" :)
<sakrecoer> However, since we include photography in that menu, your proposal makes a lot of sense.
<sakrecoer> But it makes me wonder if just "Graphics" would be enough? OvenWerks, as a native english speaking cyberking, what do you think? :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: I prefer that too (only graphics)
<zequence> In fact, I put some effort in making the menu as standardized as possible
<zequence> This is the reason for the freedesktop file blueprint
<zequence> Ross did some work on that some time ago. But, now it's a bit dead in the water, until someone (like me) picks it up.
<autumna> sakrecoer: not all artists do "graphics" exactly. visual technically also includes video but I guess it is an improvement. 
<autumna> graphics tends to mean design
<zequence> The reason for the initial names I think was due to Scotts idea to make the menu workflow based, which is something I was always against
<zequence> Scott was the project lead before me
<zequence> The menu is for categorizing tools, not workflows
<zequence> I think it's important to not get confused about this
<sakrecoer> autumna: sure, but all "graphic artists" do graphics :D
<zequence> And, there is a standard for these categories, which we should follow
<zequence> We can't fully yet, because so much is not following the freedesktop categories
<zequence> https://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
<zequence> But, if we choose to use the menu for advanced categorization, we need to make sure everything works with it
<zequence> So, it's a huge task
<zequence> Anything else to me is just weird
<autumna> I do like that we do have some specific menus, although I can see the workload
<autumna> sakrecoer: not all artists or visual artists are "graphic artists" :D
<sakrecoer> "visual production" could include video in this sense... i had a similar thing on my mind when i first got involved here :) 2 workflows a) audio 2) visual, but soon i understood it wasn't very apropriate, mainly for the reasons zequence just described..
<sakrecoer> autumna: yeah, sorry i was just playing with the simantics of how geirdal put it :)
<sakrecoer> *semantics
<zequence> sakrecoer: Video and audio have a common category in the standard, but not video and graphics
<autumna> this is where I can go into how splitting art by medium is a modern construct, and that post-modern art doesn't follow these rigid structures, but I won't. mostly I don't want to be getting hit with tomatoes and small objects
<autumna> :D
<zequence> Again, there is a standard. Let's follow that. And, if you want to change it, do it where it is decided, not here
<autumna> a solution I imagine could be interesting is to have everything in default categories, but have the ubuntu specific menus somewhere anyway. not as an exhaustive structure, but additional organization. since tags came to be, it is not that weird to have a software in 2 menus
<zequence> The title for the menu items is not standardized, just to be clear - we can choose any titles we want
<zequence> But, the actual categories are standardized. And, applications follow those with their desktop files
<sakrecoer> then again, visual artist who doesn't do anything "graphics" related rarly use the computer as a tool to craft their art. i consider prints, picture files and 3d prints to be "graphicaly produced"...
<zequence> It's not a matter for us to reinvent how to categorize tools
<sakrecoer> this discussion has emerged at about this time into the cycle every cycle i have been involved in :)
<zequence> We just need to make sure we follow the standard
<sakrecoer> i'm with you zequence.
<sakrecoer> but i think the word "design" could be dropped...
<sakrecoer> keeping just "graphics"
<zequence> I'm for that
<autumna> *ahem*
<autumna> sakrecoer I am offended. on behalf of a lot of electronic artists. thank you very much
<sakrecoer> "Visual Production" could work too.. or even "Graphic Production"... it would align well with "Audio Production" and "Video Production"
<zequence> sakrecoer: About package selection. I have a suggestion about that. How about we do that until feature freeze, then make the changes, and after that we only add packages if that fixes something for us (like syncing with Xubuntu)
<sakrecoer> electronic artists, that is? musicians and hackers?
<autumna> ;P
<zequence> I think it's important to use words that people know, and that are not too far from the actual category
<autumna> even contemporary arts using traditional media uses more and more photography and digital techniques at times in their work process. and as for electronic artists, installation artists, people doing net art. 
<autumna> zequence I agree with you (and generally I am ok with whatever we decide in terms of naming. I do like the extra menus but I am happy to be overruled on that point *shrugs*)
<sakrecoer> electronic artists(what ever that is), installation artists, people doing net art, their final medium is a mix of everything... so we could just have no categories if we wanted to suit them :D
<zequence> If the tool maniuplates graphics, it's a graphics tool
<zequence> The workflow is not interesting for the menu at all. Just the tool type
<sakrecoer> its pretty obvious that gimp, blener, darktable etc are graphic tools. The form of your final product after using them is up to each one to define i think...
<sakrecoer> word zequence 
<autumna> sakrecoer: I am most definitely not suggesting we have a category for electronic artists that would be very impractical.  :)  
<autumna> ok I am convinced by the argument about using graphics :)
<sakrecoer> :) also, to be clear, i reach you on your points autumna, but yeah, it has to be a little arbitrary unless we want to have some entries repeat themselves all over the menu..
<sakrecoer> or reinvent the desktop categorization wheel :D ...anyways. maybe if there was a new way to open up apps, it could become relevant.
<sakrecoer> i mean, i don't think the desktop is in its final form... :)
<sakrecoer> as an interface...
<autumna> sakrecoer I agree with that. and yes definitely need to consider if it is worth the effort. 
<autumna> also it is not like we can't change our mind 2 years down the line *shrugs*
<sakrecoer> hehe :)
<autumna> we can revisit the issue if it looks like the normal categorizations really aren't granular/accurate enough
<autumna> (but I think they are)
<autumna> I do want us to feature and highlight software, beyond what is on documentation, but I am not sure what the right format for it is. its something to think about down the line. 
<autumna> now onto an unrelated topic
<autumna> what happened to the wiki this time?
<autumna> *is facing an immutable page*
<sakrecoer> oh no....
<sakrecoer> autumna: tried reloading the page after login?
<sakrecoer> sometimes it does that...
<autumna> I am looking logged in. I'll logout and log back in
<sakrecoer> try that, and also try just to reload the page once you are logged in
<autumna> logging out and back in helped. (reloading wasn't)
<autumna> strange
<autumna> ..... and "you are not allowed to edit this page"
<sakrecoer> yeah, the wiki is certainly not a very friendly robot...
<autumna> logs in again* 
<sakrecoer> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/, not help.ubuntu , right?
<autumna> yeah *sighs* sorry for the extra verbose feedback. lol
<autumna> wiki.ubuntu
<autumna> (It might very well be a temporary hiccup, it is also taking forever to login)
<sakrecoer> hm... i have no problems loging in
<autumna> I login, then it forgets I am logged in
<sakrecoer> yeah... that happens to me sometimes as well, but, well... reloading a few times sorts it out...
<autumna> yeah it works now
<sakrecoer> if it doesn't now, i'm not sure what it is... you are in the document group and all...
<sakrecoer> \(^^,)/
<autumna> oh no I can see that. it was keeping logging me out. 
<autumna> sakrecoer what is your time availability like this week?
<autumna> the only reason I am asking this is would you by any chance have time to help me with the website content update so that we can finally move this thing. (of course anyone else who wants to join in can)
<sakrecoer> autumna: day time, preferably mornings before noon.
<autumna> *hug*
<autumna> and sounds good
<autumna> I am somewhat bad at being around in mornings but at least I can leave information for you to keep going, then take over
<autumna> in the afternoon to work. 
<sakrecoer> \o/ hug party!!!
<sakrecoer> ok, sounds like a good plan!
<autumna> heh sorry. I tend to do random hugs a lot. *must be more serious*
<sakrecoer> the world *seriously* needs more hugs. those who disagree, are IMHO just, sadly, not used to it :D
<autumna> :D
<autumna> I like that
<autumna> ok re website. sakrecoer can I assume that you and zequence will mostly take the lead on the coordination of documentation creation?
<autumna> as in feature tours and highlights of various software as short videos. I mean we will all pitch in but..
<autumna> I mean my assumption still is that we will create a bare bone of documentation, then regularly add, or this website will not be done in 2 years ;D
 * autumna is disconcertingly rambly today 
<sakrecoer> zequence: well, you can count on me. anything zequence is bonus power input. i mean he did express a desire to step down a bit on duties ;)
<sakrecoer> that was for autumna
<sakrecoer> as in, " autumna: you can count on me. but zequence input is bonus, because he needs to make music :)
<autumna> *nods* that's fair. I just don't want to accidentally be shoving people out of work they want to have a say in that's all. (the more the merrier ;D) 
<autumna> ;) 
<autumna> and that's fair. 
<sakrecoer> :)
<autumna> :)
<autumna>  why can't I keep a sentence straight today!!!!!
<autumna> *sighs*
<autumna> but yeah I am not sure what to do with the feature tour/discover sections at ALL
<autumna> I mean in terms of structure. I'll be happy to contribute text, ideas etc to graphics section when we get to details
<sakrecoer> i don't think we need to over think it.. if that makes sense :)
<sakrecoer> i think it should look good and the description be well formulated.
<sakrecoer> if thats is in it i think we winn.
<sakrecoer> now i'm talking feature tour.
<sakrecoer> for the rest we already have knome's excellent blogroll
<sakrecoer> so we need to look at sweat graphics for the feature tour, possibly some illsutration for the static pages such as "community" "download" etc...
<autumna> illustration?
<sakrecoer> and then write some kickass sexy text for cool robots like us AND their entire family
<autumna> I am fleshing out quite a bit support section
<autumna> because I think that's a crucial one, that is returning back to us as confused users
<sakrecoer> good point
<autumna> and yes
<autumna> I have thoughts oh so many thoughts on blog posts
<sakrecoer> cool!
<autumna> basically I want to see the blog turn into the resource base, with proper tagging
<autumna> I mean having a more wiki based approach is also possible, but idk. I am a bit worried about the curse of stale information
<sakrecoer> not sure a blog would save us from the "curse of stale information" but i think posting tutorials there would bring more traffic to it...
<sakrecoer> the wiki, being quite restrictive these days, still has more editors then the website has...
<autumna> *Nods*
<autumna> I see it more as at least the content on blog is dated
<autumna> :P
<autumna> so you know it is stale
<autumna> but eh it might be habit. I am constantly worried about how small a team we are
<autumna> btw I am jumping from topic to topic, but while I am happy to contribute some photos etc, (and I do have a specific idea for the backgrounds of feature tour in front page, geirdal perhaps might be interested in pitching in there?
<autumna> if he has time obviously
<sakrecoer> i hope geirdal will, yes, re: worrying, it can be a good thrive to do something about something. but if you put energy on just worrying you lose its meaning :) we are small but strong, yet, we do need to find more people. so focus on finding people whenever you worry about too little people :D
<sakrecoer> or write the mountain of stuff down on a piece of paper/txt-file to make surmountable.
<autumna> heheheh
<sakrecoer> "stuff *to do" and "make *the mountain surmountable :)
<autumna> well worrying as in. trying to be mindful that we have limited manpower
<autumna> and not getting carried away with too much grandiose ideas. which is so easy to do
<sakrecoer> :) that is what i wanted to read <3
<autumna> <3
<autumna> we have tons of work to do, and 6 months really isn't a lot of time
<sakrecoer> well, we don't have to be ground breaking for next release.
<sakrecoer> not that we shouldn't, but i think the website is very important atm
<sakrecoer> i mean, on that part we are way over due actualy lol
<sakrecoer> but hey, it's good to have reminders! missunderstand me right :D
<autumna> :) heh, this is me counting myself on the reminder as well
<sakrecoer> it sure is good to have you have you in the watchtower lurking at the horizon, autumna.
<autumna> *hug* thanks
<autumna> ok almost done with my first drap of content and site map sections, as uneven as it currently is
<sakrecoer> &=(^^,)  <--- it's a guy holding the thumb up
<autumna> lol
<autumna> sakrecoer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WebsiteXenial#preview
<autumna> my suggestion is to seriously focus on most basic feature, support and download information, then put everything into a priority list to be tackled. 
<sakrecoer> cool! i will have to dig into it a little later tho :) but thanks a lot!
<autumna> no worries. *goes away to take a break*
<OvenWerks> autumna: user D already bought a "Mac" because that is the logo they see on stage with any profesional.  :P
<autumna> OvenWerks in USA and even parts of europe maybe
<autumna> ... wait
<autumna> sorry User D?
<autumna> the musician?
<OvenWerks> yes
<autumna> o.O
<OvenWerks> User D: Expert musician with no interest to computers and twiddling about with the Operating System, who just want to record and distribute their music. 
<autumna> I didn't realize that music field was that overtaken with macs
<autumna> I would expect there are more low budget freelance musicians who are looking for an alternative..
<OvenWerks> This person finds the Mac is hard to use in any case because they expect it to have as many controls as a guitar only.
<autumna> than say for designers who often work for corporate and end up with macs by default. (mostly because you need to collaborate with each other, and cool factor)
<autumna> I had a mac once
<autumna> briefly
<OvenWerks> You are confusing User D with another who has some interest in computers.
<autumna> well
<autumna> I think I was thinking people who live outside high income countries
<autumna> but then again, 
<autumna> I don't know
<OvenWerks> Also the Mac stads out because of the lighted apple on the back.
<autumna> I wish there were more linux hardware out there (and no I don't mean servers!)
<autumna> (Or rasberri pi)
<autumna> Macs are VERY expensive
<OvenWerks> That is why people buy them.
<autumna> and that is why people don't buy them, it goes both ways you know :P
<autumna> you can change the description of the user or remove it if you like. 
<autumna> but I would say there are people who would switch over if convinced that linux is easier to use, and has better or equal features
<autumna> :D
<autumna> (I am more familiar with user C)
<autumna> (for which one thing that keeps coming up often is, how do you move files back and forth) 
 * OvenWerks personally knows both people who buy a Mac because they are more expensive (have more "status") and people who buy them because they are the easiest thing to use (they think)
<OvenWerks> Having said all that, mostly in jest BTW, I think it is good to keep such a user in mind.
<sakrecoer> no more lid apple in the back OvenWerks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZ8ek-6ccc
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: User D obviously wants to learn computer music, but is a lazy one.
<sakrecoer> or, it is the user from mac, who refound it's sense of ethics in abox in the atic
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: yes
<OvenWerks> All kidding aside, core audio is the best audio design out there right now.
<sakrecoer> says who? :D
<sakrecoer> put JACK in the hands of a superstar and see what happens to that status :D
<OvenWerks> One of the things linux is missing right now are people who are interested in making the audio infra struture in Linux really work.
<OvenWerks> Take Jack, add all the autodetect, sharing, etc. of pulse, add rtpmidi and linux could have a better audio system than core audio.
<OvenWerks> There are a number of things that core audio has that are impossible in linux right now.
<OvenWerks> solid over the net MIDI out of the box. for one.
<OvenWerks> AVB audio transport out of the box.
<autumna> (back from afk, OvenWerks I definitely do see your point, and am familiar with that type of user as well) 
<OvenWerks> (that last is a HW implementation BTW... coice of eithernet chip)
<OvenWerks> dealing with more than one application on the same device with different latencies.
<OvenWerks> (and without loosing audio somewhere like pulse does)
<autumna> *listens*
<sakrecoer> i agree, at the same time there are many thigns that linux has that core audio hasn't...
<sakrecoer> or maybe i missed something... but last i checked i couldn't route firefox or itunes into logic...
<sakrecoer> i could eventualy use some software called "hijack" :D
<sakrecoer> to, well, as they put it: "hijack" the signal...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: yes but... the ootb experience in linux is not very nice.
<sakrecoer> i agree, but if even we doubt our power, not only do we give power to our doubts, we stop being productive.
<OvenWerks> pulse does a great job for desktop audio and comes close.
<sakrecoer> i mean sure, there is a lot to do, but i'd rather focus on what we have while i try to gather the collectivity to improve it.
<sakrecoer> anyways, i hope you misunderstand me right. i'm not interested in how mac is better, but i am for sure interested in what we shold improve
<sakrecoer> when it comes to userD, what we need to do to that user is empower them and sucite curiosity.
<autumna> sakrecoer you sort of can? (using pulseaudio through it probably doesn't count)
<OvenWerks> yes. I think we could improve audio.
<sakrecoer> more than that we simply cant atm
<sakrecoer> autumna: on linux you can record firefox sure!
<sakrecoer> or what are you refering to?
<autumna> that... what you just said
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: we could also improve how we promote linux audio
<sakrecoer> this is why i react to what you stated previously about core being the best atm... i mean, if the king developer of ubuntustudio thinks coreaudio is better, who is going to believe otherwise? :D
<sakrecoer> tbh, the biggest lack i found when moving to linux audio was getting a grip of how things work, because it was different from what i had learned on mac. now that i've done the switch, sure i can miss some software synth. but that is realy not a linux audio issue, it's a copyright issue
<autumna> sakrecoer:  http://download.blender.org/documentation/pdf/LXF204.feat_3d.5cjt.pdf this is about blender but is kind of relevant in our case too
<autumna> the secret in some ways is having education. (both as tutorials, but also eventually having options classes etc that teaches this)
<sakrecoer> i think so too, autumna :) 
<autumna> I would also argue through that having professional work made in Ubuntu Studio (and featured) would help too. because what OvenWerks has said about people choosing more expensive item is true a lot, at least in graphics, seeing nice works done in a tool, brings more people in as user, because they want to do nice things too
<autumna> that was terrible english.. but you know what I mean
<autumna> :P
<autumna> just to clarify. professional work is being done. it is just not obvious to people.
<autumna> that it is out there
<sakrecoer> yes, i agree, that is why i say core audio is "the best atm" purely because those who are considered the best are using that...
<sakrecoer> it makes no sense copmaring, at best we just hurt FOSS community morale, at worst we lose a new user.
<sakrecoer> but what we can do, is galantly steal what is good from the others. like OvenWerks said: better OTOB experience would be awsome...
<sakrecoer> (that best/worst was supposed to be the other way arround btw)
<autumna> I am not sure I agree with that definition of best. I would call that the "in" tool
<autumna> best to me has always more to do with which one is more stable, has more features... and to a point has a sane workflow
<autumna> but that's me ;D
<autumna> (mind you I am not arguing as to which one is best between coreaudio and jack etc ) 
<autumna> industry standard usually overlaps with best but not always
<autumna> OTOB? 
<autumna> (I guess I also don't see our situation as morale destroying. open source tools are in pretty amazing state, but then again maybe I am in serious minority ;D)
<sakrecoer> yes, well, i don't see no point in saying "best". to me best is always equal to "in"
<sakrecoer> at the end of the day, audio, even radio-audio has good portion of quality ideals, that is: very subjective.
<sakrecoer> same goes with pictures. try to say what is "the best camera" :D at.. well.. best, you can say which one the most famous camera man is using.
<sakrecoer> where's i think the "best" camera, is the one i have at hand.
<sakrecoer> and, yeah, thing is i have a huge respect for OvenWerks knowledge, so i got a bit triggered, i appologize for that :D
<OvenWerks> The problem with the "PC" is that it is made for windows. Linux takes that hw platform and makes it do things it was never designed for.
<OvenWerks> Audio is one place where the HW is designed so badly it is harder to fix.
<autumna> OvenWerks in one hand it is the point of a PC (do everything somewhat well with one device, rather than needing 50 specific tools) on other hand, I hear what you are saying
<OvenWerks> Apple internal audio HW/ethernet and maybe video have been designed with an eye to make profesional audio/video possible.
<sakrecoer> very true.
<OvenWerks> The standard internal Audio in a PC is not bad on the output end... normally not usable on the input end :)
<autumna> I wonder how gaming PCs fare in this category compared to regular ones
<OvenWerks> Does not give real low latency in my experience. It is only almost there.
<sakrecoer> in terms of gaming machine, i'm pretty blown away by my MSI mb audio... but then again, i have no means to measure and can only speak annecdotaly. bought gaming machine for blender production...
<OvenWerks> gaming is audio output. gaming audio is what the PC audio is based on and the PC is adiquate for that.
<OvenWerks> As I said, audio output is just fine. Once audio is in the machine, using internal audio for mixdown, internal synth additions to the mix, etc are fine.
<autumna> (sakrecoer: I have similar feeling with my asus rog, but then again, I don't probably need the level of audio recording required to notice something is amiss)
<autumna> OvenWerks, what about external soundcards?
<OvenWerks> The biggest problem in my experience with helping people, is the use of more than one audio interface.
<autumna> I see
<OvenWerks> autumna: external AIs are generally quite good. USB is as always problematic.
<autumna> OvenWerks: :D I see. 
<autumna> what would be interesting
<autumna> is to see a hardware that is for audio recording
<autumna> that is done with linux
<autumna> like audio production version of steambox
<OvenWerks> However, if you look at most people getting into audio, they can tell that onboard audio input sounds less than good. So they get a USB mic or other audio AI for their mic/guitars or whatever.
<autumna> *nods*
<OvenWerks> These same people have all their "nice" audio HW attached to the internal audio already and so what they want to do is use the external AI for input and the internal for output.
<OvenWerks> In general this is just bad :) but it still makes the most sense to people and so win/OSx make it possible and seamless.
<OvenWerks> They do that by resampling everything but the internal audio without telling anyone.
<OvenWerks> In the situation above this is not the best thing to do :) really, the input audio should be the master sync and the output should be what is resampled.
<autumna> *listens*
<OvenWerks> I have actually been playing with this... my startup script gives: http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/pulse-jack-3devices.png
<OvenWerks> Normally, the PCH would be turned off in bios :)  but I turned it on to work with this.
<OvenWerks> The script unloads the three modules from pulse that do autojack detection, autoalsa detection and alsa loading. Then it start jackdbus with the users "best" audio IF. Then it creates zita_a2j/j2a bridges for whatever other audio devices it can find and finally it creates pa-jack bridges for each device connected to jack.
<OvenWerks> effectively, this uses pulse as jack's front end.
<OvenWerks> The advantage of this over current OOTB Studio is that even though I have three audio IFs that are not in sync (the AudioPCI is quite bad actually), I can still use jackdbus in freewheel mode (for things like Ardour exports) with no xrun/crash as other users have experienced with the pulse-jack bridge.
<OvenWerks> There is still one problem :) jack forces pulse to use the same latency as jack has. This is ok for most desktop audio uses, but there are a few where this totally fails like skype which runs at 30ms latency (about).
<OvenWerks> The fix for this is to spend more time on development on the pulse/jack bridge.
<OvenWerks> pa-jack is really a sample module, not finished or polished.
<OvenWerks> pa-jack should use the same parts of pulse that the pulse alsa drivers use to give applications varying latency from the same device.
<OvenWerks> That way jack could be running at 3 to 5 ms and skype could use 30ms on the same device at the same time.
<OvenWerks> There are some problems with my script  :)  and so I don't feel it is the right thing to use it or something similar in a STudio release.
<OvenWerks> 1) it only scans hw:*,0 of the devices. So output to HDMI would not be detected for example.
<OvenWerks> 2) zita alsa jack bridging though much better than alsa_in/out still uses cpu all the time if you are using that device or not.
<OvenWerks> 3) USB devices plugged in after boot are not detected.
<OvenWerks> So, I started work on an audio patch applet similar to the "Connections" part of qjackctl.
<OvenWerks> This applet:
<OvenWerks> 1) shows all possible audio devices.
<OvenWerks> 2) allows the user at any time to change the master device.
<OvenWerks> 3) does not start any zita alsa bridge untill the user tries to connect it.
<OvenWerks> 4) when the user selects an un connected device and tries to connect it to an application port, it first starts a zita bridge and then connects it.
<OvenWerks> That is the end point any way... so far I have got to the select any device to be master part :)
 * OvenWerks seems to have lost everyone :)
<OvenWerks> In my opinion, jack itself should do all of these things in one program. pulse/jack/autodetect/show unconnected ports as part of its graph...
<OvenWerks> Assuming the right hardware is installed in a PC, that combination could beat coreaudio.
<OvenWerks> In my dreams, AVB/AES67 devices connected only by ethernet would show up as well.
<OvenWerks> I forgot to add, the applet I am (slowly) working on would also allow the user to set a default prefered AI. If it was not there at boot, it would pick a backup (internal?) and if/when the prefered device was plugged in would switch jack master device to that device... all without stopping jack or pulse.
<sakrecoer> sorry OvenWerks, i got attacked by dinner and was forced to surrender :) might be away for the night, but i'll read first thing when i get back! :) 
<OvenWerks> no problem
 * OvenWerks is finding his lack of experience with GUI toolkits is a blocker (QT, GTK, etc.).
 * autumna gets back also from a not-expected dinner
<autumna> OvenWerks: I have a setup somewhat similar to yours, after your recs (although I think my latency setup is mostly default.. )  skype works, it could be an interim solution. and re QT/GTK it shouldn't be too hard to learn them? from what I can see there are some gui based interface developing toolkits. 
<autumna> so hopefully it is a question of tying the backend to the gui
<autumna> ovenWerks: how is zita alsa jack bridging better than alsa_in/out? 
<autumna> installation could possibly offer the option of setting up an audio default script in a certain way. (I want to use this PC only for audio, I want to use it for audio and everyday use, Skype etc) so that people can choose? 
<OvenWerks> autumna: zita_ajbridge is both better quality resample as well as less CPU use.
<autumna> oh ok
<zequence> sakrecoer: autumna: I will only be doing videos for the time being. Just got done with my education and will have some time now, so will hopefully get something done within a week
<zequence> Don't know how much of that I will be doing, but I do want to establish at least some basic styff
<autumna> alright. :) when you say videos, do you mean the "feature overview" videos or tutorials? or both?
<autumna> ("not sure yet" is also a valid answer :D) 
<zequence> autumna: Tutorials, which will be a part of the documentation project
<zequence> Almost forgot about the feature tour thing
<zequence> I could provide some material for that, surely. But, someone else should edit and create the final video
<autumna> zequence: no problem. :D just clarifying so that we don't end up in a deadlock of everybody waiting for each other. :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-09
<geirdal> Autumna;"geirdal perhaps might be interested in pitching in there?". sakrecoer:" i hope geirdal will" Hi I will just tell me what I can do :)
<sakrecoer> autumna: feature tour "video"...? thats.... new to me :D
<sakrecoer> i just read the wiki
<sakrecoer> autumna: so, do i understand it right: feature tour is now called "Discover", and it is a taxonomic category?
<sakrecoer> and you want 3 different videos; one per workflow highlighted?
<sakrecoer> my spontaneous reaction is: this is going to take a looooooong time to do :D
<sakrecoer> my second thought is: how do we integrate the video smoothly in wordpress.
<sakrecoer> i'm going to edit out "Category: Discover" for "Feature tour" and put the "Content: Video on <workflow> highlights" into brackets in the bottom of the list. Unless you already working on those videos and have a clear vision of how they will be presented on the page of course
<sakrecoer> s/brackets/paranthesis
<sakrecoer> i can see video for the feature tour, thats about how sexy it could be, but given our time and resource, i think one covering all workflows is enough
<sakrecoer> or... are you thinking: front-page=feature tour?
<sakrecoer> and: highlights=tutorials ?
<sakrecoer> ^autumna
<sakrecoer> i wont edit anything until you answer.
<sakrecoer> geirdal__: what we need is background images illsutrating the 3 workflows, "graphics, audio, video" i remember autumna saying she had a few ideas, so make sure you synchronize with each other properly, or you guys might end-up doing double work.
<sakrecoer> hehe
<sakrecoer> autumna: i think i understand now. its pretty neat. i just think 1 video per workflow highlight is a bit overkill atm.
<sakrecoer> but i can see a video in the feature-tour. (i am assuming that you think of the feature tour as the front page, which makes much sense [at least to me])
<sakrecoer> i'd be willing to create comething for that, but i will need you guys help with narative...
<sakrecoer> unless you want a very crazy robot with many arms doing something insane, just like a creative robot wants creative humans to do :D
<sakrecoer> you know... sort of like a story-board.
<sakrecoer> if we have a voice-over, i think it would be good to record that first, to set the length...
<geirdal> do you have some image that I can refer to? so  Iam understanding you correctly?
<geirdal> and where will this go?
<geirdal> Autumna we need to talk about this!
<geirdal> if it is ok :)
<sakrecoer> geirdal: this is the staging site: http://autumna.zequence.net/
<sakrecoer> as far as ai remember, it was supposed to go towards something like this: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/tour/
<sakrecoer> (it's just a draft... but there you can get a glimpse of he kindof background... preferable less noise then the ones i picked [older default wallpaper])
<sakrecoer> and yeah... as you can see, i didn't even manage to find a dummy picture for graphics :D
<geirdal> is it a new website?
<geirdal> ok
<sakrecoer> yes, we've been working on it for sometime, but also, we are way over due, so it would be nice to have that done with soon :)
<sakrecoer> geirdal: take a moment to read this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WebsiteXenial :)
<sakrecoer> when ever you have some time for that :)
<geirdal> ok
<geirdal> asap
<sakrecoer> \(^^,)/ so glad you popped in geirdal!
<geirdal> im going to work so i will not be here to talk ;)
<sakrecoer> ok :)
<geirdal> thanks
<sakrecoer> here is a HD version of the tutorial title card: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/graphicsintro.mp4 i'm rendering a loss less version to use when we add it to our tutorials.
<sakrecoer> (the one above  being quite compressed)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Looks a lot better now. I still don't particilarly like the font on the second part.
<zequence> Also, wondering if Upper Case is better
<zequence> Not sure why I wrote with upper case U and C there
<zequence> Looks really good, other than that. Very nice.
<zequence> sakrecoer: Maybe enough to just write "Graphics Tutorials"?
<zequence> The less, the better
<zequence> Would be nice to also incude the title for the tutorial
<zequence> The second slide or a third one could do that
<zequence> Like "AUDIO TUTORIALS" - "The Basics of the Sound System"
<zequence> If adding that to the second slide, there is a matter of redispositioning, which I'm sure you are aware of.
<zequence> Three slides has a different rhythm. So, I would try using the same theming for it, but might also be useful to have an entirely different theme for it.
<zequence> The sound should stop at the second slide in either case
<zequence> That's a definite transition point for me
<zequence> We're of course going to use a different sound (but it's nice to have something there, just to get an idea)
<autumna> sakrecoer: I don't want anything, its more I assumed that's what you were doing, since you had 3 title cards?
<autumna> geirdal: I think sakrecoer was mentioning it would be good to have some illustrations to some of the pages and I was wondering if you would be interested in that. 
<zequence> autumna: Those are for the tutorials. The feature tour thing is just a show case for Ubuntu Studio itself
<autumna> ah
<autumna> whooops
<autumna> :D
<autumna> thanks for clarifying that zequence
<autumna> ok no video for each section *chuckles*
<zequence> Right. I do think the first slide could be used for that (the same as for the tutorials)
<autumna> yup
<zequence> However, no jingle at the beginning. It needs music and a voice would be good.
<zequence> None of us are native English speakers, except for Ross
<autumna> yeah
<autumna> that is not a huge problem through
<zequence> No, you are right. 
<zequence> Though, the quality of the voice and the recording does matter.
<autumna> of course
<autumna> well I am here if you guys decide you want a female voice. 
<autumna> ;D
<zequence> Why not. We should try that. sakrecoer ^
<autumna> btw sakrecoer: geirdal: small correction. the stage is at: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/
<zequence> autumna: Do you have a decent microphone, or do you know someone who has one?
<autumna> define decent microphone? I have a zoom H1.
<zequence> Let me check that one
<autumna> which can both be categorized as a decent microphone and not decent microphone based on what level of decent
<autumna> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/699403-REG/Zoom_H1_H1_Ultra_Portable_Digital_Audio.html?_escaped_fragment_=#!
<autumna> zequence its this
<zequence> autumna: That one is more for recording live sessions, in general. Stereo small diafragm.
<zequence> It might work, but it would be better to have a single large diafragm mic.
<autumna> *nods*
<zequence> diaphragm*
<autumna> I use to record vocals etc. but yeah I know it sounds a bit.. flat for the lack of better term
<autumna> only other mic I have is your garden variety mono voice mic. 
<sakrecoer> yeah, so the individual title of each tutorial will be done in inkscape. i plan to push a inkscape template for that to the doc repo.
<autumna> as in, you know the one you would use in stage? (except it is very cheap and probably has much worse sound quality)
<zequence> sakrecoer: ok
<sakrecoer> to add the title in the animation, would take rerendering the animation each time, if the title gets too long for example
<autumna> (oh btw geirdal thanks for helping out.)
<sakrecoer> autumna: the title cards are for tutoirals, not the website
<zequence> sakrecoer: Shouldn't be necessary. Too much work, yes.
<zequence> sakrecoer: I think autumna was referring to the feature tour video we talked about some while ago
<sakrecoer> zequence, autumna: ok, i missed that discussion about a feature tour video
<autumna> yup saw your explanation. sakrecoer. I just misunderstood what you were doing. as for the "discover" section. I thought we had discussed to have more detailed information on each workflow (as sections of feature tour) so as not to clutter the webpage too much? depending on how much information we can all squeze it in into the front page, have multiple or single "discover" or "feature tour" page?
<autumna> we can always do the feature tour video later, but I think having a small commercial like video (as zequence put it back when we discussed this) could be useful
<autumna> people like to see what they are downloading. 
<autumna> but then again
<autumna> at this point we can delay it, and aim to do it for yakkety
<sakrecoer> (zoom h1 is awesome stuff! i wouldn't buy an expensive mic just for this)
<sakrecoer> i think a smaill video "commercial" would be awesome... we just need to find a good "scenario" for it :D
<sakrecoer> re: audio quality, the quality of the sound in my video tutorials is awfull. it's the video cam mic. 100times worse than a h1
<sakrecoer> but i think it is ok... maybe audio tutoirals need a real nice audio, since those who watch that probably mind it a lot more
<autumna> don't get me wrong I love my h1 zoom. it just is a jack of all trades that does 50 things reasonably ok, rather than one-two things amazingly well
<zequence> sakrecoer: The audio was not great, but it works on your video. I have a headset you could borrow, if you want, though.
<autumna> which for my level of dealing with audio, is plenty
<sakrecoer> i wish i had one! i would bootleg so many concerts, log my friends drunken bullshit (while loggin my own of course)
<zequence> The headset is more for live use. It's Shure
<sakrecoer> oh man.. so many possiblities :D
<autumna> :D
<zequence> sakrecoer: I don't use the headset ever, so you could borrow it indefinitely
<sakrecoer> zequence: ..? headset..? i microphone?
<sakrecoer> *a microphone
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yes, one of those that artists use who dance while singing
<autumna> sakrecoer re commercial btw. I would think it is less like. here use this. more like a video feature tour.
<sakrecoer> right! *autofacepalm*. well... why not? :D
<sakrecoer> autumna: yes, but we still need some sort of script, like voice-over and order of presentation.. you know
<autumna> yup
<sakrecoer> zequence: re: headset.. maybe i should just get myself a proper micstand. that would improve the sound a lot..
<zequence> sakrecoer: But, do you have a proper mic?
<sakrecoer> not that my mics are super (sm58) but they are probably better then the one on my old camcorder
<zequence> Well, a dynamic will for tutorials, no problem
<zequence> will <work>
<zequence> Would sound the best if you had it to your mouth at all times, of course
<zequence> You need three arms
<sakrecoer> i know :D
<zequence> Or, someone hiding under your desk, holding the mic for you
<autumna> you can make a stand from legos. 
 * autumna is only half joking
 * sakrecoer added 8 arms, 3 helping elves and a pair wings to xmas list
<zequence> sakrecoer: Don't forget the lego kit
<sakrecoer> right!!! :D
<autumna> :D
<sakrecoer> ok, i'll be back in a moment. gotta eat!
<sakrecoer> zequence: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/audiocard.png
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/videocard.png
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/graphicscard.png
<geirdal> Autumna: Just tell me what to do!
<geirdal> this is not easy task the audience are very demanding ;)
<geirdal> I will start with something crasy ;)
<geirdal> and let you guys tone it down :)
<autumna> geirdal let me get back to you on that? 
<geirdal> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-10
<zequence> sakrecoer: Very nice. I like it.
<sakrecoer> :) cool!
<sakrecoer> then i'll  go ahead and render them in lossless
<sakrecoer> this i pretty neat: http://www.thregr.org/~wavexx/software/fgallery/index.html
<sakrecoer> next release maybe? :) it seems to be packaged in debian: https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=fgallery
<sakrecoer> next as in 17.04, since feature freeze is way past...
<sakrecoer> been in touch with darktable guys to improve the "export to webgallery" function anyways.
<autumna> nice
<autumna> sakrecoer: I'd say we have enough work to do for 16.10. is it too early to begin planning for 17.04 through? like can we begin listing package wishlist for 17.04 so that we don't forget as we find things?
<autumna> re gallery thing: it looks nice. my only concern is if this thing works with search engines, since the whole navigation seems to rely on javascript
<sakrecoer> autumna: no idea about the SEO of that script..
<sakrecoer> check this one out tho: https://github.com/Jack000/Expose
<sakrecoer> autumna: well... of course, you are welcome to keep wishlists, as long as it doesn't interfer with the current process i'd say.
 * autumna bookmarks the gallery script for further investigation
<sakrecoer> i mean, discussing things is a good thing always :) discussing things while other things should be discussed is less good maybe :D
<autumna> sakrecoer: I highly doubt that keeping a wiki page somewhere would do any harm. ;)
<autumna> so that people can braindump, that way when the time comes for discussion, we don't realize 2 days before the feature freeze: oh wait, we were also discussing doing x y and z last december.
<autumna> which sort of what happened this time around :D
<autumna> (not that it was a disaster, since it was before the deadline and not after) 
<autumna> its up to you *shrugs*
<sakrecoer> not sure what you refering to autumna ?
<sakrecoer> nor what is up to me, neither what happened this time around...
<autumna> huh?
<autumna> the request for writing meta?
<autumna> plume creator etc
<sakrecoer> autumna: still don't get it.
<autumna> also the discussion about the adding of the audio setup to controls. - hmm
<autumna> sakrecoer: what do you mean?
<sakrecoer> i mean: what are you talking about?
<sakrecoer> the writing meta request came in before deadline, right?
<autumna> yes. 
<sakrecoer> so, what are you suggesting is up to me to do?
<autumna> I am.. not suggestion something that is up to you to do. 
<sakrecoer> "17:01 < autumna> its up to you *shrugs*"
<autumna> I am saying a page or a list somewhere to keep track of this ideas might be a good idea if we aren't doing it already, rather than relying to remember it when time comes to put up feature requests
<autumna> oh I meant, the decision is yours
<autumna> :D
<sakrecoer> :D haha
<autumna> what did YOU think I was saying? or shall I not ask
<autumna> :P
<sakrecoer> well, i had no idea :D
<autumna> lol
<sakrecoer> well, atm we should focus on what has to be done for this release, according to what was agreed in the feature definition process.
<autumna> ok
<autumna> by the way when you said we needed illustration for website pages
<sakrecoer> but its a good question you ask autumna 
<autumna> what were you meaning?
<sakrecoer> images for the feature tour
<autumna> (heh, process review is always an ongoing thing)
<autumna> OK
<autumna> oh so background images, and icons etc?
<sakrecoer> exactly :)
<autumna> gotcha
<autumna> geirdal was asking me what was needed, last night at which point I realized I had no idea if we had an immediate illustration request
<sakrecoer> yeah, i saw that. i guess this discussion would be way better suited in an email thread...
<autumna> good point
<autumna> you want to start the thread or should I?
<autumna> I know what I am doing, I am going to get the support page text done since that is one of the critical items. are we still drafting content in stage?
<sakrecoer> yes, i think you can go ahead and do it in stage
<sakrecoer> re: email, i can do it unless you realy want to :) but i'm kindof writing something else atm so it will come later tonight.
<autumna> I think it might be better for you to do it when you get the chance.
<sakrecoer> ok :)
<geirdal> I dont need to do anything :) but if I can help I will!
<geirdal> If there is nothing for me to do! THats also ok ;)
<geirdal> but Im here to help :)
<sakrecoer> geirdal: i guess i have to write it in a mail, i get the feeling i don't come through very clear about those graphics here in IRC.
<geirdal> ok
<sakrecoer> i mean, i am putting in it in a mail.. :)
<geirdal> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-11
<sakrecoer> autumna (and everybody really): here you can write down any ideas or other relevant insights, addition, potential changes that strikes your powerfull mind after feature freeze, so that we remember them for next one. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox/YakketyYak
<autumna> yay!
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: we need to remove menulibre from ubuntustudio. It comes in through the import of xubuntu's desktop meta. menulibre just does things wrong.
<OvenWerks> I can not suggest a replacement as alacart has it's own troubles
<autumna> fyi the related bug is already filed with menulibre
<autumna> and I though alacarte also used to break things
<autumna> not sure in 16.04
 * autumna needs to finish reading before replying
<OvenWerks> alacart does things correctly for what it knows... what it knows is to expect a broken system menu file so it puts new application launchers into "other".
<OvenWerks> The menu hierarchy is not easy to understand... it is complex, which is why so many people get it wrong :P
<OvenWerks> The main thing gnome/xfce/lxde seem to have forgotten... is that the user should be able to change/override anything. KDE gets this one thing right... but has problems with other things.
<OvenWerks> Right now our menu bundle works against kde, xubuntu (not xfce), studio (of course).
<autumna> yeah I am just not sure not having any menu editor is the right solution, because then, we get "I can't edit the menu" problems
<OvenWerks> I did file bugs with everyone else and they were rejected.
<OvenWerks> better an uneditable menu than a broken one.
<OvenWerks> Maybe we should try kmenuedit :)
 * autumna stays quiet
<autumna> :D
<autumna> jokes aside I don't have a brilliant idea or strong opinion on this
<OvenWerks> I am installing kmenuedit and menu I will create a new user and play. I do not trust any menu editor at this point with my own home.
 * autumna waits curiously the results
<OvenWerks> It may be a while I have to close a lot of applications... and maybe finish some started work first.
<autumna> no worries
<autumna> oh dear somebody actually tried my old workaround
<autumna> that was for 14.04 
<autumna> easiest way to restore the menu back 16.04 is to remove the menu file created from .config/menus (if I remember correctly) (not a workaround though)
<autumna> created in*
<OvenWerks> Well, that was an adverture.
<OvenWerks> the application menu is for things that do not work with xdg... i suspect for pre xdg stuff.
<OvenWerks> kmenuedit, is as bad as menulibre. It does not check what the structure is that the system is using, but uses it's own idea of what it thinks it should be.
<OvenWerks> alacart seems to be the best, least wrong, menu editor out there.
<OvenWerks> It seems to have gotten better since last I looked.
<OvenWerks> Our menu shows in the right order.
<autumna> oh?
<autumna> what happens when you edit?
<OvenWerks> I didn't play that far.
<autumna> :D
<autumna> oh well (also I am off to sleep)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-12
<sakrecoer> i don't feel it is particularily important to ship a menu editor. Installing one is a matter of clicking in gnome software or edit the file manualy. it's not like we break user space by not providing a tool for editing the menu, shipping a menu editor that breaks the menu is breaking userspace...
<sakrecoer> but since whisker was integrated i rarly use the menu tbh, so i don't know. on the other hand i sort of feel that if one is unhappy with the way the ubuntustudio is made, they should edit it of course, but i find it hard to see where our responsability is for that. then again, it becomes our responsability if the editor we provide is broken...
<sakrecoer> i would think of it differently, if not shipping a menu editor would render the menu uneditable.
<sakrecoer> ^ OvenWerks autumna 
<sakrecoer> at the end of the day, we are supposed to provide a multimedia produciton tool. we do not specialize in desktop environement production so to speak...
<sakrecoer> so i'd rather see us focusing on our menu, than on tools to change the menu we focused on doing :D
<sakrecoer> so unless menulibre is being fixed in time for next release, i'm in favour of removing it. spending time on finding an alternative is imho a waste of our time.
<autumna> sakrecoer (and OvenWerks) my main concern was the fact that we will get help requests either way, but I definitely agree thinking over. (menulibre is badly breaking the menu as it stands) and I think OvenWerks totally did look for all possible alternatives, there currently isn't any
<sakrecoer> autumna: i think we would get way less helprequest about the menu if we don't ship an editor. if we don't we can link to documentation about how to do it, and recommend/warn about existing apps for the purpose.
<sakrecoer> if we ship a menu editor, the users will rightfully think we _should_ support them for the troubles they get with it
<sakrecoer> not that i have been here very very long, but i never saw a techsupport request for menu editing until that bug surfaced...
<sakrecoer> a few suggestions and requests about how the menu should be organized are probably more of a regular thing.
<sakrecoer> obviousy, having an editor would remove those, but yeah, seems we all agree having a broken editor is just bad :D
<sakrecoer> and removing it from our distro isn't going to stop people from installing one or edit manualy..
<autumna> sakrecoer: believe me I know. :D and as for support requests, back when I was a boring old user, and trying to edit my menu, I remember there was other people asking the same question. but was this in ubuntu studio package or elsewhere? who knows, but anyway. as I said I agree with both of you that removing it is probably the best solution right now
<autumna> unless it gets fixed. :D
<OvenWerks> I would suggest it will never be fixed.
<OvenWerks> It would be possible to fix alacart. Alacart really only lacks some functionallity. menulibre on the other hand is based (in my opinion) on a wrong way of doing things in the first place. Menu libre would require A total rewrite.
<OvenWerks> In other words, even if menulibre was to fix the starting point of where it got it's menu spec from... basically redoing the whole menu in user space means that new changes to the system menu will not show up as they should.
<OvenWerks> really, writing a menu editor is far from trivial.
<geirdal> I will need some specs for background images!
<OvenWerks> geirdal: there are two kinds of backdrops: 1) Default ISO, Needs to neutral enough that a business (like a portait shop) can use it where customers can see it. 2) Included extra choices, no sex based or copyrighted material... pretty much anything else is fine.
<sakrecoer> geirdal: you mean for the website right? 
<sakrecoer> anyways, like OvenWerks says: "no sex based or copyrighted material" 
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: Ahh, I hadn't thought about the website :)
<sakrecoer> then, like the emails says: "something that illustrates the workflow, while it lets the text-content
<sakrecoer> be easily readable"
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i think it was easy to get confused there.
<sakrecoer> geirdal: 3 images. 1 for graphics workflow, 1 for audio workflow, 1 for video workflow.
<sakrecoer> geirdal: if you have more questions about that, you are very welcome to ask on the mailing list, so we can all be on the same page.
<sakrecoer> geirdal: don't worry if you don't feel inspired. as long as you let us know in good time that you're not feeling it. i'd like to have the content ready for week 9 in this schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule
<sakrecoer> (that is june 23rd)
<sakrecoer> g'night y'all! read you tomorrow :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-06-05
<Magomed-Kei> hello everyone
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-06
<preppert> Hi.
<preppert> I have been working on a documentation project and have quite a few questions. 
<preppert> Anyone out there who can help? 
<OvenWerks> Ask the questions, everyone has different hours, someone may know the answer...
<preppert> This is a series of chapters that are being converted into HTML.  I have no clue how to upload them.  I'm just posting to Google drive and sending that to the doc team discussion forum. 
<preppert> I didn't get any clear idea on how this will be incorporated into the existing site.  So far just "a wiki".  Does that mean I would somehow start a wiki?  On what server with what account?  I think someone suggested putting it on GitHub, which I think is a non-starter. 
<preppert> It seems there's a fairly large number of people on the documentation team, yet I am not finding a lot of documentation. I wonder where it is? 
<preppert> Is someone the point person for organizing the documentation?  If not, how does it eventually get where it needs to go? 
<preppert> I am making a bunch of raw HTML files, keeping tagging at a minimum.  Is there a style sheet?  Can someone help put it into proper shape, make it responsive, etc.? 
<preppert> Can I use a server-side include statement? 
<preppert> Must go.  Will try again later. 
<OvenWerks> Anyone else know how to do such conversions? And the other things? If they are here, I can repaste them if preppert shows up again.
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn is on the Ubuntu Wiki Team and would know what to do, but I haven't seen him for a while.
<ErichEickmeyer> tsimonq2: Any ideas?
<ErichEickmeyer> Wimpress: ?
<OvenWerks> if preppert is on the mailing list, an answer there may be worth while. I am not good about keeping track of nick to name things :P
<ErichEickmeyer> He's on the mailing list and has posted the PDF to his book there.
<OvenWerks> Ok thought so, but I wasn't sure :)
 * ErichEickmeyer adds himself to the documentation team... to see if there's any way to do this
 * ErichEickmeyer was able to edit some outdated JUNK!
<ErichEickmeyer> Mostly just a version refresh. Looking into other things.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, I think I have an answer, and I'll make a specific part of the wiki for the handbook. Right now, I'm out of time, so if he shows up again, OvenWerks, let him know I'm working on it.
<preppert> Anyone from the documentation team there? 
<studio-devel759> New to the service! Havent used IRC in years!
<studio-devel759> Wanted to contribute! I am a college grad in Physics (Celestial Mechanics) and am experienced in Computer Repair and programming science. I've ghostwritten many technical papers, and to be honest, I am interested in working with Linux source code. Your distro is the one I love the most, due to the UI and setup for audio, as well as the comnpatibility with FLS and Native/Serrato
<studio-devel759> Any instruction in how to contribute to this build and progress it's adaptivenesss and branding would be greatly appreciated. MorpheusAdvocate@hotmail.com
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-07
<OvenWerks> eylul: where does our web page reside? and why does https://ubuntustudio.org/tour/graphics/ have a link to a fcaebook page that is private (I get asked for an account) instead of mypaint.org?
<OvenWerks> See comment in #ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> should point to mypaint.org I would think.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Fixed.
<OvenWerks> TY
<aleb> OvenWerks: good point about github
<ErichEickmeyer> tbh, I think it was Github's goal to be acquired by somebody all along. Just happens to be MS.
<ErichEickmeyer> I think condemning MS for it is misdirected anger.
<ErichEickmeyer> But, that's off-topic. We have an -offtopic channel for these kinds of discussions.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-08
<WMRamadan> Hello
<WMRamadan> Iâm interested in contributing to Packaging and Testing.
<WMRamadan> Do I just join the mailing list for this or is there another process involved?
<OvenWerks> WMRamadan: That is a great start. We have also been having meetings on Saturdays. I don't remember the UTC time, but it works out to 1200PDT
<WMRamadan> OvenWerks: So the meetings are on Saturday 1200PDT here?
<OvenWerks> yes
<WMRamadan> Great so tomorrow at 1200PDT is the meeting!
<OvenWerks> Yes, I haven't heard any notice to cancel
<tsimonq2> WMRamadan: Do you have any packaging experience?
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: ^ ?
<WMRamadan> Where would you get this notice or info for the meetings?
<OvenWerks> mailing list
<WMRamadan> I have joined the mailing list on Ubuntu Studio contributors 
<WMRamadan> I have experience with System Administration, DevOps work abd Programming in PHP/Python/Javascript
<WMRamadan> Linux Operating Systems is a primary focus for me
<WMRamadan> tsimonq2: What would you recommend I look at first?
<tsimonq2> WMRamadan: Try looking through the Debian Policy Manual
<WMRamadan> tsimonq2: Thanks will definitely check it out.
<tsimonq2> WMRamadan: No problem, let me know.
 * OvenWerks has stayed away from packaging because it seems more political than anything else.
<tsimonq2> Not really.
<OvenWerks> I guess it depends on the package :)  try Carla.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-09
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sorry, my chat windows were closed yesterday.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes, meeting. Today. Working on agenda. Very tired, had a long week.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ruh roh. Getting "fail to build" for the -controls daily.
<OvenWerks> yes... I am sure it is my mistake :P
<ErichEickmeyer> No worries. I was just shocked to get the email!
<OvenWerks> for some reason my git upload ended up belonging to core rather than devel
<ErichEickmeyer> Strange.
<ErichEickmeyer> I just did a whole bunch of restructuring at https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio to get it up-to-date (was running a good 4 years behind), so I'm not sure if that affected it or not.
<OvenWerks> trying again
<ErichEickmeyer> Looks like it wants your launchpad ID in bzr.
<OvenWerks> this is git?
<OvenWerks> anyway I have to go...
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: This is what I'm seeing: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/x52pG2zB7t/
<ErichEickmeyer> See ya later.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: per krytarik: s/bzr-builder/git-build-recipe/
<OvenWerks> thats what it said...
<OvenWerks> I can no longer find the recipe I created... but it is there somewhere so I can't create a new one
<krytarik> OvenWerks: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+recipe/ubuntustudio-controls-daily - and you know, you could have just edited it instead.
<OvenWerks> so it changed it on me... 
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: edit does not chnge it.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm clueless on this one. That was krytarik's suggestion.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I edit the recipe to make it git, I update the recipe, then I go back to edit and it is as if I had never changed it.... no error message or anything
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, that's weird.
<krytarik> And you know, setting the last used Bazaar branch to both "old" and 'abandoned' is rather fun when there are still all these: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls
<OvenWerks> So how do I get rid of it?
<OvenWerks> if everything is to be switched to git... where is a detailed path to do so?
<OvenWerks> Launchpad still for the most part, thinks in BZR
 * OvenWerks finds this very frustrating
<OvenWerks> I am thinking to just change everything back... pull a bzr branch, drop all files from my git brinch into it... and push
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm not sure if the path to switching to git has been solidified yet. tsimonq2 would have more details on that.
<ErichEickmeyer> But yes, I get the frustration. :/
<krytarik> https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls/+configure-code - either of you should be able to switch the default VCS of the project to Git here.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Should we do it?
<OvenWerks> I am on that page as happens :)
<ErichEickmeyer> haha
<OvenWerks> there is no help here what is the Banch Name to use? Truck? master?
<ErichEickmeyer> I'd use trunk or master for now.
<ErichEickmeyer> The main project page was a mess, so I hope I didn't bork anything with the cleanup.
<OvenWerks> it is just getting messier with me doing this :(
<OvenWerks> well I don't know what I did... but my recipe saved right this time.
<OvenWerks> ga!, got my versioning wrong.
<OvenWerks> builds ok at least
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild
<OvenWerks> There it is.
<OvenWerks> There is the latest snapshot of -controls and it appears I have successfully switched it to git.
<OvenWerks> known issues: any config change does a restart. Some config changes will always do a restart anway, but some don't need to
<ErichEickmeyer> Yay!
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: The changes doing restart: is that a jackdbus thing?
<OvenWerks> no, just unfinished work :)
<OvenWerks> However any jack config change will always restart
<ErichEickmeyer> That makes sense. Would suck for someone that didn't know that when all the sudden Ardour gripes.
<OvenWerks> but things like pulse bridging and what ports it connects to. extra device bridging and a2j midi bridging will be able to be changed on the fly... soon.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sweet. Pulse bridging and what ports it connects to can usually be done with any patchbay, unless I'm misunderstanding you.
<WMRamadan> Hey guys so when is the meeting?
<OvenWerks> pulse bridging itself can't, but where they hook could be yes.
<OvenWerks> 28 minutes
<WMRamadan> great
<ErichEickmeyer> WMRamadan: Welcome! We need all the packaging and testing we can get! Do you have a launchpad account?
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: the user can choose which device pulse applications should use for output and which ports. input ports will default 1+2 on the same device or on system if that device has no inputs.
<WMRamadan> ErichEickmeyer: Yes I have setup launchpad account and joined the mailing list, checking out the meeting agenda now!
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Cool. That makes it a one-stop shop for audio config, rather than setting the default for the pulse bridge prior to starting jack, which is what I do.
<ErichEickmeyer> WMRamadan: What's your launchpad account?
<WMRamadan> ErichEickmeyer: https://launchpad.net/~wmramadan
<ErichEickmeyer> WMRamadan: Sweet.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: For packaging, should I add him to the Developers or Contributors group (or both)?
<OvenWerks> development for sure
<OvenWerks> I don't remember what contributors is for to be honest.
<ErichEickmeyer> haha, ok
<ErichEickmeyer> Done. Welcome aboard, WMRamadan!
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: contrib does have one code branch.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, the multiple DE Metas, an abandoned project that we're inadvertently reviving with -plasma. XD
<OvenWerks> except it seems to want to load evrything onto the iso :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Eeek.  Maybe worth keeping abandoned.
<OvenWerks> it is often easier to start fresh rather than try to figure out someone elses start.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> A lot of the thing desktop-gnome pulls in would have been pulled in by desktop anyway.
<WMRamadan> ErichEickmeyer: Thanks
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. It's clearly outdated.
<OvenWerks> xfce and gnome share a lot of things too... more than xfce and plasma I think.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, GTK for one...
<OvenWerks> we will need three metas, desktop-core, desktop-xfce and desktop-plasma (and maybe a desktop-default)
<OvenWerks> gtk gets pulled in anyway
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah.
<OvenWerks> lots of applications require it.
<ErichEickmeyer> I think if we reverse-engineer kubuntu-desktop we might get some clues.
<OvenWerks> yup
<WMRamadan> Anyone her work for Canonical?
<ErichEickmeyer> Nobody on the Ubuntu Studio team works for Canonical.
<ErichEickmeyer> We're 100% volunteer.
<ErichEickmeyer> That said, we have connections.
<WMRamadan> Yea, I understand that I was just wondering if anyone happens to be from Canonical
<ErichEickmeyer> Wimpress is, but you won't see him talk in here very often. He mostly lurks.
<ErichEickmeyer> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jun  9 19:01:28 2018 UTC.  The chair is ErichEickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair ErichEickmeyer eylul krytarik OvenWerks
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks eylul krytarik
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, anyone here?
<WMRamadan> Yup
<ErichEickmeyer> Sweet. We could wait for everyone else to show up.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-controls
<ErichEickmeyer> Hey OvenWerks, how's the progress?
<OvenWerks> I think it is about usable now.
<ErichEickmeyer> Sweet. I'm assuming the latest build was successful?
<OvenWerks> there is a build in: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild
<OvenWerks> it can be tested in 18.04 and .10
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. I'll download and install it sometime later today to help in the testing.
<ErichEickmeyer> Next step would be to get it in the cosmic repo.
<OvenWerks> yes
<ErichEickmeyer> That might have to be a ross or tsimonq2 thing.
<OvenWerks> I think so.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay.
<OvenWerks> -controls is a little less disruptive than cadence
<OvenWerks> also cadence and -controls do not work together
<ErichEickmeyer> cadence and qjackctl don't work together either. :P
<OvenWerks> cadence is quite intrusive
<ErichEickmeyer> #done initial builds of new ubuntustudio-controls available for testing.
<OvenWerks> we should probably add a breaks cadence or something
<ErichEickmeyer> #info ubuntustudio-controls breaks cadence
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Would we add that to the package?
<OvenWerks> I think so
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<OvenWerks> The only problem is that there is no cadence package
<OvenWerks> so knowing the exact name is hard :(
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, then it'll have to be part of the release notes.
<ErichEickmeyer> Usually it's cadence, at least in the kxstudio ppa it is.
<OvenWerks> I'll add that
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<ErichEickmeyer> #agreed "add cadence to package breaks for ubuntustudio-controls"
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. On to the next topic
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-welcome and -boutique
<ErichEickmeyer> No real progress to report. It's been a busy week. Though, if anybody wants to contribute in the rebranding process, it's at https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-welcome and https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-boutique.
<ErichEickmeyer> #link https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-welcome
<ErichEickmeyer> #link https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-boutique
<ErichEickmeyer> Any questions or comments?
<OvenWerks> was going to ask if we need welcome too... but think it is probably good to have.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, from looking at the code, they kinda depend on each other.
<OvenWerks> if we can pack then as a deb would be nice too.
<ErichEickmeyer> iirc they're available as deb.
<ErichEickmeyer> At least, the budgie and mate versions are.
<OvenWerks> cool
<ErichEickmeyer> The mate version is only installed as a snap by default.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's all I've got. Still working on the rebranding. This past week was crazy for me.
<ErichEickmeyer> On to next topic
<OvenWerks> k
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Documentation
<ErichEickmeyer> #subtopic Cleanup
<ErichEickmeyer> The documentation is a mess, and I added myself to try to see what I could do about changing some outdated documentation. Haven't seen SlidingHorn around for a while, but I was hoping he'd lead the charge on this.
<ErichEickmeyer> There's also a "setup" section that has a lot of things that -controls does for you without having to touch the command line (add user to audio, rt memory unlock, etc.).
<ErichEickmeyer> So, that needs to be modified to talk more about -controls than any manual changes to config files.
<OvenWerks> ya, thats old
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I'll be going through that as I have time and clean it up and make some revisions. Already changed the references to the current versions which were about 2 years outdated.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, next topic.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Wallpapers
<ErichEickmeyer> I don't know why I put this on the agenda since I have nothing. Though, we did run into a bit of a tabled topic last time. Is eylul available?
<OvenWerks> I think we are still stuck
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. We'll keep it tabled. :/
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic New Website Theme
<ErichEickmeyer> Not seeing Ross or eylul, so we'll have to move on. We need to get that theme uploaded.
<OvenWerks> right
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Musician's Handbook
<ErichEickmeyer> First of all, big welcome and thank you to preppert who is not here right now for that amazing handbook. I had the privilege of reading it.
<WMRamadan> Where is this Musicianâs Handbook?
<ErichEickmeyer> WMRamadan: It's still work-in-progress, but he linked it on the mailing list and you can find the thread in the archives.
<ErichEickmeyer> I plan on making a spot on the User Wiki for it to live as a living document, and that can be used to make official releases likely following every release as proposed by eylul.
<ErichEickmeyer> Should be mostly a copy-paste operation.
<ErichEickmeyer> My question is if preppert was planning on publishing it as a physical or ebook?
<ErichEickmeyer> Because that would be amazing.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anything to add? Anyone?
 * OvenWerks can't find the mail list archive...
<WMRamadan> yea I canât find it either
<ErichEickmeyer> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/
<ErichEickmeyer> Specifically https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2018-June/subject.html
<WMRamadan> Much better it was hard searching the archive
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, I guess we'll get the answer. Anyhow, let's move on.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-icon-theme: change disto icon
<ErichEickmeyer> So, the thing I was thinking is that the distributor-loco icon is a bit dated, and not uniform with the blue circle enclosing the logo on the other flavors, so I thought it would be a good idea to fix that. I'm all for doing it myself using the svgs avalable.
 * OvenWerks is obtuse and wonders what is wrong with the old one or what is the new thing
<OvenWerks> Ya sure, go ahead.
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<ErichEickmeyer> Can't find it right now, but I'll link it if I can.
<ErichEickmeyer> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserShowcase?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=White-on-Blue_circle.svg
<ErichEickmeyer> That.
<OvenWerks> There do seem to be more than one, the one on our launchpad page is different than on my menu
<OvenWerks> That is the one in Launchpad
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Seems that both are official, but the circled one seems to be more uniform with the rest of the flavors.
<OvenWerks> The one on my menu is negative to that
<ErichEickmeyer> You mean this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserShowcase?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Blue-on-White_circle.svg
<OvenWerks> It is trying to look like and open reel tape reel
<OvenWerks> yes
<ErichEickmeyer> We can still have that for wallpapers, but I was thinking about uniformity with the rest of the flavors.
<OvenWerks> for example?
<OvenWerks> square?
<OvenWerks> (ish)
<ErichEickmeyer> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ubuntu-official-flavors.jpg
<ErichEickmeyer> Just an example.
<OvenWerks> ok
<ErichEickmeyer> That's a bunch of flavors and the official "circle of friends". I guess ours is the "circle of reel?" XD
<OvenWerks> reely reely
<ErichEickmeyer> haha
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, so I guess I'll go ahead and play around with it. Might be a good first package for me to modify.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, on to the next topic...
<OvenWerks> ok, the reel thing just happens to be round like most buntu things but otherwise does not even start to cover all Studio does.
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed. Though, I don't think completely revising the logo is a good thing to do right now.
<OvenWerks> no
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm just talking about the one icon package.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow...
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic hangar18 stepping down
<OvenWerks> go ahead with next
<ErichEickmeyer> Charlie wanted to contribute, but realized it wasn't a good time for him citing family issues. I just wanted to let everyone know in case weird rumors fly around.
<ErichEickmeyer> The timing with the Github post on the ML was what prompted me to try to kill the rumors.
<OvenWerks> no problem, people are here as they can be.
<ErichEickmeyer> And next topic...
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Changing meetings from weekly to semi-weekly
<ErichEickmeyer> I think it'd be healthy at this point in the development process to meet every other week.
<OvenWerks> concidering how many people are here today and the amount of changes since last time...
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I think, especially considering the time of year, we should do that. People want to spend time with their families, and I'm no exception.
<ErichEickmeyer> Perhaps as the release gets closer we can up the frequency, but for now, and to keep from stretching too thin, I think semi-weekly is good.
<ErichEickmeyer> Thoughts?
<OvenWerks> ok, I'll second if needed
<ErichEickmeyer> Sweet.
<ErichEickmeyer> #vote Change Meetings from Weekly to Semi-Weekly
<meetingology> Please vote on: Change Meetings from Weekly to Semi-Weekly
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<ErichEickmeyer> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ErichEickmeyer
<OvenWerks> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
<krytarik> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from krytarik
<WMRamadan> Can I vote?
<ErichEickmeyer> Sure!
<OvenWerks> yes
<WMRamadan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from WMRamadan
<OvenWerks> I think that is everyone actually here
<ErichEickmeyer> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Change Meetings from Weekly to Semi-Weekly
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ErichEickmeyer> Unanimous.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. That's all I've got for this week. I'd like to officially welcome WMRamadan to our packaging & development team!
<ErichEickmeyer> Anything else to discuss?
<WMRamadan> Thanks, looking forward to making some contributions.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic packaging
<ErichEickmeyer> We would really like to get Carla packaged if you're up for the challenge, WMRamadan.
<ErichEickmeyer> Also, we will definitely need packaging help with -welcome, -boutique, and -plasma.
<WMRamadan> Ok, how do I get started?
<WMRamadan> Also, we are talking about Carla the autonomous driving simulator?
<ErichEickmeyer> No, talking about Carla the plugin host.
<ErichEickmeyer> audio plugin host, that is.
<WMRamadan> Haha, ok sorry
<ErichEickmeyer> #link https://github.com/falkTX/Carla
<OvenWerks> http://kxstudio.linuxaudio.org/Applications:Carla
<WMRamadan> Yea, got it
<WMRamadan> So how do I get started with this?
<ErichEickmeyer> WMRamadan: Any .deb packaging experience?
<OvenWerks> The big thing to remember when packaging is that not everything needs to be included.
<WMRamadan> So all that is needed is to create a .deb package?
<OvenWerks> For example linux sampler can't be
<OvenWerks> the build pocess is a little different that the normal ./configure
<OvenWerks> make does not fail if things are missing it just buuilds without that funtionallity
<WMRamadan> Once I get this to work is this submitted on launchpad?
<ErichEickmeyer> I believe so, but OvenWerks, Ross, and tsimonq2 have more insight on that.
<OvenWerks> Launchpad can be used to store it, but ultimately it needs to be included in debian.
 * ErichEickmeyer is still learning packaging and launchpad himself.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Unless it's in the universe or multiverse repos.
<OvenWerks> I have just learned that I am not very good at it.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. OvenWerks, you okay getting him started?
 * ErichEickmeyer wishes Ross were here
<OvenWerks> I have yet to package anything :)
<ErichEickmeyer> WMRamadan: you okay to lurk here? tsimonq2 is a good resource for packaging.
<WMRamadan> ok no problem
<WMRamadan> would it go something like thisâ¦.
<WMRamadan> 1 - Build binaries for Ubuntu Studio 18.04
<ErichEickmeyer> He's just not available. Something, something, Southeast Linux Fest.
<WMRamadan> 2 - Creat .deb package
<WMRamadan> 3 - Submitte to launchpad for review
<WMRamadan> ?
<ErichEickmeyer> Kindof. More like build, create .deb with source, upload to personal PPA, test .deb, then ???.
<OvenWerks> getting a package to a private ppa is first I think. I don't know who reviews things for inclusion
<ErichEickmeyer> We lost most of our packagers over the past couple years.
<WMRamadan> Who maintains what goes in the repo?
<ErichEickmeyer> That would be the ubuntu release team.
<WMRamadan> Do we meet with the release team?
<ErichEickmeyer> No, but we can tell them we have a package we'd like to include. They have a mailing list and an IRC channel. #ubuntu-release
<ErichEickmeyer> That's usually where I come in as release manager.
<WMRamadan> How can I join that mailing list?
<ErichEickmeyer> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-release
<ErichEickmeyer> We should probably end this meeting and finish up outside of the meeting.
<OvenWerks> ok
<ErichEickmeyer> Can I get a second?
<OvenWerks> seconded
<ErichEickmeyer> Alright.
<ErichEickmeyer> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Jun  9 20:13:27 2018 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntustudio-devel/2018/ubuntustudio-devel.2018-06-09-19.01.moin.txt
<ErichEickmeyer> I'll get the notes out when I can, but I have to go for now.
<OvenWerks> have a great day
<ErichEickmeyer> You too!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-10
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I have done everything I can think of for -controls for now. It need a good burnout test other than just running for months on my system... which is quite static. I have tried throwing whatever I could think of at it... plug and unplug USB ports, changes of configuration, using USB device as jack master. Asking pulse to be connected to a device jack can't see etc. It does pretty good.
<OvenWerks> There are two or maybe three commits that are not included in the build on the PPA yet. These commits are quite important as they include the whole config call which allows the "apply" button to change some things without restarting the world...
<OvenWerks> A session restart should pick up where things were left off.
<OvenWerks> Well with jack state, not with all jack apps running and such.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Cool. I can get to testing that sometime tomorrow as I'm pretty much out of the house all day today. Also, I'll give it a real test on Wednesday by testing how it responds with a Behringer X32 console.
<OvenWerks> The build hasn't caught up with the commits yet. Another 8 hours
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: a few things. Once -controls has been installed, -controls should be run once if you are not using Studio as your base. Then you need to logout and back in to get the back running.
<OvenWerks> So assuming you want the x32 as your master device, install and run -controls. Select the X32 as your USB master (it does have to be plugged in before you run -controls for that) and set any other settings that make sense. The jack master sould be set to an internal audio device that will be your fallback audio when the x32 is unplugged. Apply the setting, logout and back in.
<OvenWerks> That should do it.
<OvenWerks> The weaknesses I see are that I haven't figured out how to have the daemon start at install or via the gui, it needs at least one session restart.
<OvenWerks> The gui does not refresh when the audio devices are changed (plugged in or out).
<OvenWerks> However, these are a one time problem for the user.
<OvenWerks> Right now, I need to know how things work day to day. 
<OvenWerks> The first problem will not exist if -controls is installed from the iso.
<OvenWerks> The second I will work on... but maybe not right away as I do have other things i need to get to.
<OvenWerks> in thge mean time...
 * OvenWerks has figgured out how to fix both of these things
<WMRamadan> Would something like a 14â Laptop with 2GB RAM and an Intel Atom be good as a test machine?
<OvenWerks> is the atom 64 bit?
<OvenWerks> I guess that doesn't matter
<OvenWerks> to try the script
<OvenWerks> so long as it is ubuntu-oid 18.04 or later
<OvenWerks> Even earlier will probably work somewhat. I don't know if the cpu governor will still work over boots is all.
<WMRamadan> OvenWerks: Yea Atom is 64bit.
<WMRamadan> I was gonna use VMs for testing but I thought maybe that wouldnât be the best option since I need to test Carla with Midi Keyboards and external hardware!
<preppert>  Hello.
<preppert> Is this where the meeting is?
<preppert> Anyone from the documentation team there?
<preppert> Will sign off shortly. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-06-05
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Think this might be of any use to us (or our people)? https://github.com/stuartlangridge/magnus
<OvenWerks> does it do more than alt scroll?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: where would that be used? If the text size is too small, then the default can be set higher or the application has a bug. most applications where zooming in already have internal zoom functions like graphics or even firefox
<Eickmeyer> Wimpress: ^
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Accessibility, I would think.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so does alt scroll not already fill that need?
<Eickmeyer> Never tried it. Is that UI-wide or just in certain applications?
<OvenWerks> part of xfce
<Wimpress> Yes, it is primarily a a11y tool.
<Wimpress> But also of use to designers who want to close inspect images etc.
<Eickmeyer> So, more like a magnifying glass less like a UI magnifier.
<Wimpress> Exactly light a magnifying glass. You have a window in which the area around the mouse is magnified and displayed.
<Wimpress> *like
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: probably I am not the one to ask. eylul or others who do mostly graphics would know better.
<Eickmeyer> Personally, I think it would be a welcome addition to the graphic design aspect.
<Eickmeyer> Even as a photographer this could be useful.
<OvenWerks> I can think there may be an advantage to only magnifying a portion of the screen over the whole screen.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu ^ Any thoughts?
<Eickmeyer> We'll see what she thinks.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am sure the utility is small enough that it will not make much of a dent in the iso size. :)
<Eickmeyer> Agreed.
<Eickmeyer> Wimpress: if you get that included in the archive, we'll add it to our seed.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: do check the depends
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: that's all in the archive. Wimpress already has a PPA made for it. We use some of those already.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I guess I should have asked if it works in plasma too :) or if kde already has a similar utility. If so then it should be added to DE specific packages.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It would be added to the -desktop seed. Plasma already has something.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: you are way ahead of me then
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Might need your help in #ubuntustudio. Gone through the usual audio troubleshooting steps, might need something deeper.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-06-06
<len_o> Eickmeyercan you hit that again? I'll try pidgen
<Eickmeyer> To help us further assess your audio problem, please type this into a terminal (minus the quotes): "cd /tmp && wget http://jackaudio.org/downloads/adevices.sh && bash ./adevices.sh | pastebinit"
<Eickmeyer> It hasn't been implemented yet.
<len_o> http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/PGnSN45wSM/
<Eickmeyer> Yep. Worked.
<len_o> Ya but I can do one copy paste anyway. I joined the wrong place is all.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Heh, ran it inside Windows Subsystem for Linux: http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9JntcX73rS/
<OvenWerks> That is a valid reply
<OvenWerks> no alsa no jack
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-06-09
<OvenWerks> It seems kernel version 5.* handles firewire devices better.
<OvenWerks> (at least digi003 based devices)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-06-01
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Just got the fix for the lack of Konsole in the favorites. Looks like some stuff got mixed-up there. :P
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: I'm going to start pushing some plugin packages soon. Any chance we can get a new upload of dragonfly-reverb? It didn't make it into focal (RAOF wasn't sure about something), and needs a new upload for groovy for consideration.
<Eickmeyer> lp:dragonfly-reverb
<Eickmeyer> That would cross one off my list.
 * Eickmeyer has about 53 plugin packages to do
<studiobot> <teward001> i'll add it to my list
<RikMills> how is calamares looking?
<OvenWerks> seems to be pretty good
<OvenWerks> my only complaint is that the keyboard it defaults to (for me) doesn't make sense... but the devs seem to be responsive about it.
<Eickmeyer> I just ironed out the final bugs I had with it yesterady, so it's doing pretty good, RikMills.
<Eickmeyer> Configuration bugs, that is.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Along with dragonfly-reverb, I have lp:add64 for you. Lintian clean, copyright checks out, easy one.
<studiobot> <teward001> added to my list
<studiobot> <teward001> i have a long list of tasks heh
<Eickmeyer> I believe it.
<Eickmeyer> I'm down to 52.
<Eickmeyer> That was an easy one because it's part of my maintianer list on Fedora.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-06-02
<Eickmeyer> Down to 50. Dunno why some developers insist on using git submodules that contain binaries.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ardour 6.0 landed in Debian. I just ran the syncpackage script, should be in Ubuntu soon. \o/
<Eickmeyer> We *might* have a migration blocker, but I'm going to try to get the release team to push it on through. It won't build for ppc64el.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: notes that Ardour 7 will drop PPC/winxp as well
<OvenWerks> ie will go full c++11
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, I'll let the release team know.
<OvenWerks> Ardour up to this point has been c++99 + boost. I do not know if c++11 will keep boost or not
<Eickmeyer> teward: Another one for your long list: lp:artyfx
<Eickmeyer> Lintian-clean, copyright checks out.
 * Eickmeyer just cleaned out all of the old Ardour bug reports. \o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-06-03
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Can you take a look at https://askubuntu.com/questions/1246298/problem-with-setting-performance-mode? Not sure what's going on here.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: "Ask Ubuntu" doesn't seem to accept my Ubuntu access creds
<OvenWerks> it sends me to yet another Sign up page.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, someone else has asked the right question. I would add the output of uname -a would be nice.
<OvenWerks> It is possible installing cpufrequtils loads another module... we don't install that
<OvenWerks> that other module may block what we have set up from working. they may be using a generic kernel which may not come with performance built in
<OvenWerks> the governor list used to be different for generic and lowlatency
<OvenWerks> "I've installed Ubuntu Studio 20.04" I would like to know if that means: A) upgraded to, B) installed Studio on top of
<OvenWerks> because ubuntustudio ISO install on an i5 should have no difficulty
<Eickmeyer> Ask Ubuntu should be able to use your launchpad creds.
<Eickmeyer> It does for me.
<Eickmeyer> Anyhow, they said in the comments that they're using Kubuntu + installer. I had to correct them that they misled the entire conversation.
<OvenWerks> (even a "mobile i5" 2 cores/4 threads)
<Eickmeyer> Looks like someone else is trying to figure it out with them.
<OvenWerks> That was my guess
<Eickmeyer> Oh, the Kubuntu + Installer was a separate issue.
<OvenWerks> cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_governors might help
<OvenWerks> on an reasonably modern intel cpu ondemand should not even be an option
<Eickmeyer> I agree.
<OvenWerks> (ondemand uses more power than perforance in most cases)
<Eickmeyer> The one nasty thing I keep seeing is that someone thinks they have to follow some outdated guide after installing Studio and they tend to mess-up their system causing problems like this.
<OvenWerks> yes, that was my thought too
<OvenWerks> In this case (studio on top of) I think install, add studio, update and reboot should be what happens
<Eickmeyer> I agree.
<OvenWerks> I think we should maybe change -installer to request a reboot
<Eickmeyer> Maybe a dialog that says "Reboot Now" or "Reboot Later".
<Eickmeyer> With buttons for those, of course.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: also see: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1090380/cpufreq-only-ondemand-and-powersave-governors-work-when-laptops-running-on?rq=1
<OvenWerks> The bios may be set to not allow performance in certain cases
<OvenWerks> (or all)
<Eickmeyer> Very true. I didn't think of that for some reason.
<OvenWerks> and: https://askubuntu.com/questions/249867/how-do-you-prevent-cpus-from-being-throttled-when-battery-is-taken-out-of-laptop?rq=1
<OvenWerks> I had not thought of that one... the ac not being powerful enough on it's own without battery help.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, it's kinda weird. You'd think that would destroy the battery pretty quick.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Re not being able to get qjackctl to work with pt_BR... the same person will soon be back with the same problem with -controls.
<OvenWerks> :)
<Eickmeyer> True, it's a language issue. We simply don't have translations.
<OvenWerks> I suspect qjackctl does not have pt_BR so mupstream issue anyway.
<Eickmeyer> Probably.
<Eickmeyer> @teward: Another one for you, this time it's a GUI toolkit: lp:redkite
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: Another one for you, this time it's a GUI toolkit: lp:redkite
<Eickmeyer> It's a prereq for another audio plugin.
 * OvenWerks notes that his laptop in performance mode at 1.6Ghz drops to 797Mhz when the adaptor is removed. It doesn't chnage the governor but changes the ragnge the governor can work with in.
<OvenWerks> "current policy: frequency should be within 800 MHz and 800 MHz. The governor "performance" may decide which speed to use within this range."
<OvenWerks> plugged in: current policy: frequency should be within 800 MHz and 1.60 GHz.
<Eickmeyer> That kinda makes sense considering.
<Eickmeyer> Welp, launchpad builders are offline. RIP my day.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-06-04
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer if the LP builders are down I can't upload them :P
<studiobot> <teward001> so :P
<studiobot> <teward001> make a complete list of what you need me to poke
<studiobot> <teward001> i'll get to them probably by end of week
<studiobot> <teward001> because at this time you've got like 8 things you need me to push
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 More like 4...
<Eickmeyer> Did I not warn you about the incoming flood of packages I'm working on?
<studiobot> <teward001> you did.
<studiobot> <teward001> but i have no central tracker anymore :P
<Eickmeyer> Gotcha.
<studiobot> <teward001> and you don't have bugs etc assigned to me for it XD
<Eickmeyer> I was considering spinning-up a card system on my nextcloud.
<studiobot> <teward001> *cough*trello*cough*
<Eickmeyer> *cough*money*cough*
<studiobot> <teward001> trello is free?
<studiobot> <teward001> not hosted on prem it's in the could but still
<studiobot> <teward001> https://trello.com/pricing 10 team boards free.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, I guess I thought we would need Business Class.
<studiobot> <teward001> nope
<studiobot> <teward001> *smacks you for failing to read the pricing docs*
<studiobot> <teward001> if you have different teams with different visibility you simply define different team boards
<Eickmeyer> I read the price docs a while ago, I just failed to evaluate our exact needs I guess.
<studiobot> <teward001> for different visibilities
<studiobot> <teward001> if you just need cards and assignment tracking free works pretty well
<Eickmeyer> Ok.
<Eickmeyer> I mean, I have a DO droplet nextcloud that I could easily give everyone an account to. There is a task card app plugin for it.
<studiobot> <teward001> heh
<Eickmeyer> OK @teward001: Just assigned a bunch of bug reports for the new packages to you. I've got more coming, but at least you can keep track of them this way for the time being. There's only 4 so far.
<Eickmeyer> Make that 5, forgot about dragonfly-reverb.
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer yep i see the assigns, thanks.
<studiobot> <teward001> i'll poke these tomorrow after I get an on-prem Landscape working for my one employer
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: Cool. The simplest ones are Add64 and redkite by far.
<Eickmeyer> I'm down to about 30 only because one contains something like 12, but that one is on hold because upstream wants to port the build system to meson from prebuild.
<Eickmeyer> Also eliminated a couple due to FTBFS/dep hell.
 * Eickmeyer goes to bed
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: I see more being assigned to me lol.
<studiobot> <teward001> check your trello, i sent you a link
<studiobot> <teward001> look @ my trello board for tracking my tasks heh
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 Yep, I'm knocking quite a few out of these left and right. Just want to get them in before Feature Freeze, which I concede is a couple months out, but I'd rather have them ready.
<Eickmeyer> I don't want history repeating itself with dragonfly-reverb.
<Eickmeyer> These are all audio plugins, or dependencies for them.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1246566/ubuntu-studio-default-pulseaudio-output-device
<Eickmeyer> I didn't realize we removed the ability to select the device for the pulseaudio bridge.
<Eickmeyer> Rather, default connection.
 * OvenWerks reminds Eickmeyer that he was instrumental in the decision...
<Eickmeyer> Oof, you're right. :P
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: that will change in the next version of -controls as already discused
<Eickmeyer> Alright, cool.
<OvenWerks> I actually think it is possible to hand edit the config file for other than system:* ports now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-06-05
<OvenWerks> you may need to keep an unactive one tied up... that sounded like a threat
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It's not really possible, but I did it anyways just in case.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: re:telegram/matrix, etc. I am not sure how they are viewed as better than IRC. What do they offer? do they have backscroll even when not online?
 * OvenWerks thinks that would just be a webpage addition to IRC.
<Eickmeyer> So, Telegram and Matrix are always connected and can simply bridge to IRC. Matrix's bridge is more robust.
<Eickmeyer> Telegram is more like an instant messenger, Matrix is a whole chat protocol.
<OvenWerks> so backscroll during offline time
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<Eickmeyer> That, and you can actually post images (screenshots, etc). directly to the chat.
<Eickmeyer> No need to go through imgur or something else.
<Eickmeyer> Same with video, if needed.
<Eickmeyer> Audio too, as a matter of fact.
<OvenWerks> ok. sort of makes sense I guess
<Eickmeyer> I prefer Matrix to Telegram, especially since the bridge is more robust.
<OvenWerks> to be honest, I would not liked being pinged via either audio or video (assuming that is live)
<Eickmeyer> No, it just posts as a message that you'd have to click on to see/hear.
<Eickmeyer> It's not like people can just call you.
<Eickmeyer> Well, they can, but that doesn't happen.
<Eickmeyer> Like, eylul[m] asks before she calls me.
<OvenWerks> from a support pov, some of the people who come to IRC seem like they would just expect to make a call to you if they didn't get an answer fast enough
<Eickmeyer> Heh, if they do, 1) decline, 2) block, 3) ban.
<Eickmeyer> Have yet to see anyone on Matrix attempt to call me.
<OvenWerks> I know I ignore PMs and only answer comments in the channel
<Eickmeyer> Also, Matrix forces people to register before joining a channel.
<Eickmeyer> Cuts down on spam.
<eylul[m]> @eickmeyer Ovenwerks it is usually a good idea to poke before calling someone, or.. well, there is also the issue of giving people time to setup their headsets etc
<eylul[m]> :)
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<eylul[m]> also I believe you can limit private calls, or even DMs to only people in your friends list
<eylul[m]> anyhow I am heading to sleep, dropped in because I saw my name
<eylul[m]> gnight.
<Eickmeyer> Good night!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-06-06
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: i had zero sleep last night so I had to call off work today (even though it's remote work).  I slept most of the day away sorry.  Tomorrow i'll push all these things up
<studiobot> <teward001> sorry about the incessant delays
<studiobot> <teward001> but two days of insomnia made me hit absolutely unusable energy levels this morning
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It's ok. Take care of yourself. :)
<kubustuu> Just wanted to say it's a great move to switch to plasma desktop, this was the main thing holding me back using u.s. on my production machines. 
<kubustuu> Thank you and looking forward to horny gorilla. Bye
<RikMills> Eickmeyer et al. Plasma 5.19 is being prepared in ppa:kubuntu-ppa/staging-plasma for testing
<RikMills> may be a while before it gets in the archive as needs 2 new source packages
<RikMills> oh, and these are pre-release tars, so if you test do not advertise the PPA availability before Tuesday 
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Is this for focal or groovy? I'd assume Groovy, I guess, since focal doesn't really affect us.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-06-07
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: groovy
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Thanks
<Eickmeyer> teward: Not the first time we've had people that paranoid coming in there complaining about the images. It's so annoying.
<teward> Eickmeyer: truth.  We wee it on Ask Ubuntu regularly
<teward> it comes down to logistics
<teward> and really Canonical needing to get up and do it
<Eickmeyer> And then he complains that his own network has been compromised? I'm pretty sure that the download of an iso or checksum is not going to matter. smh
<studiobot> <teward001> if his own net is compromised he has bigger problems
<studiobot> <teward001> but that's a different issue :P
<Eickmeyer> Right. At no point is that our fault, and no amount of https is going to make that any better.
