#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-13
<Mez> o_O
<Mez> erm
<Mez> whens the next comm council
<Mez> Mon 6th or Tue 7th
<Simira> good morning, Jane
<terrex> topic should say: Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Mon 6 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
<terrex> Mon 6 or Tue 7 but not Tue 6  xDD
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:terrex] : Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Mon 6 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Tue 7 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
<Kamion> thanks, it's tomorrow
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:terrex] : :)Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Tue 7 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
<terrex> ok
<terrex> sorry
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:terrex] : Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Tue 7 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Tue 7 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
<Kamion> leave it :-)
<terrex> xD
<terrex> i didnt want to changue it
<terrex> ok.
<terrex> hehe
<terrex> why the wiki is on httpS ?? its to slow for me
<dholbach> to everybody who didn't hear it yet: 
<dholbach> Kamion CC meeting should be tomorrow, I believe; there was some date confusion
<dholbach> Kamion somebody put "Tuesday 6 June" as the date of the next meeting
<dholbach> Kamion they're generally Tuesdays, so I've changed the topic to say 7 June
<dholbach> Kamion I certainly can't be at this meeting anyway; I need to fall over soon
<mgalvin> thnx dholbach, be here tomorrow
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-14
<DanielN> CommunityCouncil meeting?
<tseng> tommorow.
<DanielN> ah
<DanielN> ok thx
<tseng> nps
<DanielN> argh
<DanielN> but in the agenda was today, right?
<DanielN> only cause i'm not sure about myself
<DanielN> :)
<Kamion> it was, it was a mistake
<DanielN> ok
<tseng> it said Tuesday the 6th
<tseng> so you were half right.
<DanielN> tseng: and i put the 6th in when (calendar) .. so it was right changed to monday ;)
<DanielN> but welll .. god night all
<DanielN> +o
<mako> greetings..
<mako> i'm gonna be offline for the next couple hours but will be back a bit before the meeting
<opi> hello :-)
<opi> g'day elmo
<elmo> hi opi
<opi> another late night CoC session :-)
<Mez> yeah - should be interesting... lol... whya re they so late anwyays?
<mdke> not late if your in australia or america i guess
<mdke> the next one will be earlier
<kassetra> It's late afternoon in the US.
<mdke> hi kassetra
<kassetra> :)
<kassetra> hiya :)
<mdke> how are you getting on with those mammoth minutes?
<kassetra> they're mammoth.
<kassetra> HUGE.
<mdke> *grins*
<kassetra> and of course, that's not including my day job.
<kassetra> :)
<opi> maybe I should put some kaffeine ;)
<mgalvin> l8r, hopefully i can make it home in time for the meeting
<nalioth> pardon my mathematical uncertainty, but when (in Texas time) is the meeting?
<opi> ummm
<opi> it's in 1h
<opi> so, now if you know the time in TX, do the math :P
<nalioth> opi: thx
<nalioth> opi: its the danged daylight savins (or giving back) time
<opi> It's too late for me to understand english :-)
<nalioth> i was thinking -6, but DST did it to me
<Seveas> nalioth, check the topic
<Seveas> use date --utc :)
<nalioth> Seveas: ok
<nalioth> thank you professor Seveas 
<Seveas> lol
* Seveas is not nearly a professor
<Seveas> have to get my MSc and phd first :)
<nalioth> Seveas: sure ya are, yer just ignorant of your main pupillary body
<mako> Mez: they are not always this late.. they move around
<mdke> hey mako 
<opi> it's 2 AM or 6 AM, pick up your posion :D
<opi> mako-san
<kassetra> hi mako  :)
<mako> greetings
<ogra> mako, didnt we have a extra meeting about op's in #ubuntu ? (a pretty lengthy late one iirc)
<Mez> lol - fair enough mako
<ogra> some weeks ago, i dont recall which week anymore.... 
<opi> ogra: and it end up at what?
<ogra> with a lst of people that can op in #ubuntu now
<mako> ogra: i don't think we had a seperate meeting
<mdke> it was in a CC i think
<mako> ogra: we talked at UDU and then it was in the context of a CC meeting
<mdke> there was a proposal that CC members would op up if necessary in the channe
<opi> ogra: but the item is about Members (all?) being able to sudo rights at #ubuntu (and #kubuntu?)
<Seveas> mdke, i like that option
<ogra> mako, it was after a CC meeting, yes
<opi> ogra: after the last one?
<ogra> opi, nope, it was about implementing the UDU spec
<opi> ogra: because I renember this item rised at the last one, just before the end
<ogra> and it was not the last one iirc
<mako> opi: we talked about local teams right before the end of the last one..
<mako> i just finished writing the summary :)
<mdke> i think it was before udu, but not sure
<ogra> i'll ask dholbach, he'll remember
<mako> mdke: every irc op meeting was post-udu
<mdke> oh ok
<dholbach> ogra: what do i remember?
<opi> mako: um... I need to take my drugs for renember things, then
<ogra> dholbach, when did we have the #ubuntu op's meeting
<dholbach> ogra: about irc ops? no i dont... there was some meeting post-udu
<ogra> dholbach, after one of the last CC meetings....
<dholbach> sorry, that i don't know
<ogra> may be two or thre ago
<ogra> dholbach, you were there.....
<dholbach> man i was in 42697649264 of meetings
<ogra> sinc youre also a op in #ubuntu now if i'm not wrong
<dholbach> i'm not
<ogra> you ere on the list
<ogra> were
<dholbach> i declined to do it, when i was asked
<ogra> me too, but i'm an op ow
<ogra> now even
<dholbach> let me crawl through some MBs of logs
<mako> dude, i wrote up summaries :)
<ogra> heh
* Seveas likes to become an op since I hang out there a lot :)
<mako> save yourself some pain
<Riddell> why would you decline the power of the op?
<ogra> mako, url ?*g*
<mako> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/cc-summary-20050510.html
<nalioth> Seveas: helps when the mentally challenged show their true light
<dholbach> Riddell: because i'm not in #ubuntu that often
<mako> fro some reason, we called ogra ograting
<Seveas> Riddell, because everybody can see you're an op and not everybody wants to be bothered by random people in case of trouble
<ogra> heh
<Seveas> or be bothered by random people who think they can ask the ops everything in private
<mdke> you would just op up if necessary
<mdke> most of the time you would be normal
<opi> yup, like mdke says
<Seveas> mdke /msg chanserv access #ubuntu list
<Seveas> most ubuntu newbies know that
<dholbach> may 10th, exactly :)
<mdke> Seveas, do they?
<ogra> dholbach, look at the list ;)
<mdke> those are some geeky n00bs
<Seveas> mdke, well, most people who know there way to #ubuntu know IRC a bit...
<ivoks> hi all
<Seveas> and than they can still be UBuntu-noobs :)
<opi> hi ivoks 
<mdke> Seveas, well xchat goes to #ubuntu automatically, but i take your point
<Seveas> hi ivoks 
<dholbach> i'm quite glad i'm not o nthere :)
<ivoks> on ubuntu, everything is automatically :)
<ogra> dholbach, err ??
<ogra> There were a number of suggestions in that document. After asking the people in attendance, the board approved the first round of additions to the IRC operators list that included these people (identified by IRC nick):
<ogra>     * crimsun
<ogra>     * tritium
<ogra>     * ajmitch
<ogra>     * carlk
<ogra>     * Amaranth
<ogra>     * dholbach
<ogra>     * ogra
<dholbach> ogra: i was talking about: /msg chanserv access #ubuntu list
<ivoks> prevod1: zdravo ;)
<p0m> It's good to see my timezone hasn't screwed me over :)
<ivoks> :)
<prevod1> ivoks: zdravo ;-)
<ivoks> prevod1: it's prijevod :)))
* p0m prods Treenaks
<prevod1> ivoks: Yes, off course...
<mgalvin> 10 min to spare :)
<opi> another beer?
<ivoks> sure :)
<ivoks> it's midnight... night is young :)
<Seveas> beer
<Seveas> beer is good
<Seveas> grolsch is better :)
<opi> that's a common marketing-lie ;)
<mgalvin> eases the stress
<opi> go, Goldman! :)
<ivoks> there's nothing like kilkenny
<opi> it costs only 0.5 euro
<Seveas> ivoks, aie!
<Seveas> you've got taste!
<ivoks> Seveas: who doesn't like kilkenny? :)
<opi> I never had it :P
<opi> so I can not judge
<opi> feel free to ship it :D
<ivoks> opi: oh, you missed so much in your life
<pschulz01> it it too early for a beer? (7:30am Australia/Adelaide)
<opi> pschulz01: that's oxymoron
<opi> to early and beer in one sentence
<pschulz01> ptscheee
<ivoks> hoegarrden is nice too
<mako> alright.. something like 10 minutes.. i'm gonna make tea and do a last pass on the agneda
<ivoks> and leffe...
<nalioth> pschulz01: its always 5pm somewhere
<pschulz01> (I don't hear anyone else opening beers)
<JanC> ivoks : I prefer non-commercial belgian white beers  :)
<Seveas> *plop*
<opi> pschulz01: mine goes: pszzzzzzz
<JanC> and real abbey beers  :)
<Seveas> Grolch beugel goes *plop* instead of *psscchhh*
<Seveas> JanC, La Chouffe!
<ivoks> JanC: :)
<ivoks> JanC: i don't have access to non-commercial beers from belgium :)
<JanC> I can get some from the night-shop now, but I think coax is too thin to transport them   ;-)
<mako> ivoks: leffe blonde is alright
<mdke> non-commercial beers?
<JanC> the only leffe that's alright (IMHO) is "Leffe La Radieuze"
<mako> westmalle tripel is one my favorites
<mdke> FOSS beers?
<ivoks> mako: leffe is great
<mako> the sarge release party for nyc is being held in a belgian beer bar
<mako> :)
<pitti> hi
<ivoks> :)) nice
<mdke> hi pitti 
<Seveas> Belgium has much better things to offer than leffe
<ivoks> pitti: hi
<Seveas> not that leffe is bad :)
<Kamion> um, so ...
<mako> right
<mako> give me a second to finish w/ agenda
<Kamion> I completely forgot about this meeting, but it's really quite awkward for me, 'cos I'm in the middle of moving a batch of stuff to the new house
<Kamion> and preparing for tomorrow's inspection of the old house
<mako> Kamion: i think sabdfl is around
<opi> Kamion: good luck :-)
<Kamion> and need to get to some shop before they close, to buy stuff for tomorrow morning
<opi> Kamion: don't miss any computer part :)
<Kamion> does anyone mind if I excuse myself from this meeting, with apologies?
<mdke> good luck with the move Kamion 
<mako> Kamion: go on :)
<ivoks> Kamion: enyoj ;)
<mako> i hate moving
<Kamion> thanks, sorry about that - it does look like you'll be quorate anyway
<Kamion> yeah, me too
<Kamion> I've managed to avoid doing it for four years
<mako> i am having spasms of fear for my move in august
<mako> the fact that i live on the 5th floor of a building with no elevator does not help things
<Nafallo> hi everyone! :-)
<opi> mako: put everything in a big box, and off you go
<mdke> mako, get debian NYC round to help
<ogra> mako, down is easier :)
<mgalvin> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-15
<mako> and the fact that did, i am a small-scale book collector :)
<mako> mdke: i fully intend to :)
<mako> mdke: party at my place!
<mako> ok.. where is mark
<elmo> mako: he's around, he just schnaked on #c
<ogra> hehe
<sabdfl> evening all
<mdke> hiya
<ogra> yay
<Amaranth> hi
<ivoks> hi
<smurfix> hi all
<mvo> hey
<\sh> *yawn* evening sabdfl 
<Nafallo> hi sabdfl! :-)
<Seveas> hi sabdfl 
<ivoks> it's morning allready :)
<mdke> smurfix, :)
<mgalvin> hi sabdfl
<Nafallo> ivoks: indeed ;-)
<dholbach> hi
<\sh> ivoks: deep night ;)
<opi> g'day sabdfl 
<DanielN_> hi all
<opi> hi smurfix 
<mako> ok
* mako just committed a "final" agenda
<Seveas> opi, what's up with the accent, ahve you ahd too many beers already?
<mako> agenda is at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<mako> smurfix: greetings
<mako> lets get started..
<mako> if peopel can state their name for the record, it helps me write things up
* mako is benjamin mako hill
* Seveas is Dennis Kaarsemaker
* sabdfl is Mark Shuttleworth
* smurfix is Matthias Urlichs
<mdke> Matthew East
* opi is Emil Oppeln-Bronikowski
* \sh is Stephan Hermann
<mgalvin> mgalvin is Matt Galvin
* ivoks is Ante Karamatic
* xuzo is Luis Lopez
* Nafallo is Christian Bjlevik
* DanielN_ is Daniel Neuenschwander
* Mez is Martin Meredith
* mvo is michael vogt
<pschulz01> pschulz is Paul Schulz
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> for the 3 people that just joined us (including sabdfl), kamion won't be here tonight
<mako> he's moving
* nalioth is Marek Spruell
<sabdfl> mako: member candidates first?
* anibal is Anibal Monsalve Salazar
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach :)
* ogra is Oliver Grawert
<mako> lets see is the one loco team person is her
<mako> here
<mako> LjubisaRadovanovic ?
<mako> anybody know his/her nick?
<ivoks> prevod1 ?
<Seveas> prevod, 
<prevod1> Yes
<sabdfl> prevod1: Ljubisa?
<prevod1> prevod - Ljubisa Radovanovic
<mako> prevod1: welcome
<prevod1> Hi
<mako> from the serbian team?
<smurfix> So what's happening in the Serbian team?
<sabdfl> welcome, tell us about your plan for a LoCo team, where, who's working on it, goals, opportunities etc
* Amaranth is Travis Watkins
<prevod1> Yes
<Amaranth> just though i'd toss that in there
<mako> most of your webpage is in cyrillic.. which is cool but a little opaque to me :)
* Riddell is Jonathan Riddell
<prevod1> Serbian team heve 5 translator
<sabdfl> readable but still a bit opaque to me :-)
<prevod1> + 2 admin for forum site
<mako> prevod1: how many people participating in the forums?
<mako> you busy with other stuff right now, prevod1?
<sabdfl> prevod1: have you guys joined this? https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators/
<mako> alright.. 
<sabdfl> guess so
<opi> looks like I ping timeout
<mako> maybe not busy.. but not quite right
<mako> yeah
<mako> alright
<mako> lets move on to members
<mako> and come back to him if he can fix his connection
<prevod1> sabdfl: No, for now
<mdke> opi, i hear ya
* mako just got confused
<prevod1> Forum http://ubuntu.fsn.org.yu/forum/ 33 members
<sabdfl> prevod1: ok, tell us about the local team, what sorts of things we can help you with to get ubuntu going in Serbia?
<opi> mako: the old session pingedout
<mako> opi: i see that.. now ;)
<prevod1> Only mail list for naw
<sabdfl> how many big cities are there in serbia?
* motaboy is Simone Gotti (and I was smoking :P )
<sabdfl> are there linux conferences we could help you arrange a presence at?
<ivoks> sabdfl: 1 bigger than 1 million
<sabdfl> which one is that?
<ivoks> belgrade
<prevod1> Beograd - 2 milions + 15 sites > 100 000 
<sabdfl> for the breezy launch, would you be able to put us in touch with the local newspapers and magazines?
<mako> now serbian can be written in either cyrillic and latin, right?
<sabdfl> translate announcements and answer questions from local journalists who want to know more about free software?
<mako> gnome has two serbian translations
* uniq is Frode Doeving (sorry for the delay)
<mako> Serbian (sr) and Serbian Jekavian (sr@ije)
<ivoks> they have http://ubuntu-cs.org/
<mako> what is the difference there?
<ivoks> i don't know how much it's related with prevod1
<ivoks> s/with/to
<mako> prevod1, is http://ubuntu-cs.org/ your loco's site?
<prevod1> Yes
<mako> great :)
<prevod1> http://prevod.org/osobe/ - Gnome translators
<mako> prevod1: so the translation is into cyrillic and the webstie is in latin?
<prevod1> On Gnome 2.10 update work  members 
<sabdfl> prevod1: are you guys also translating for kubuntu apps?
<prevod1>  cyrillic mainly
<prevod1> http://www.kde.org.yu/ 
<mako> is your loco involved with both of those projects?
<opi> hi seb128
<mdke> prevod1, out of interest, what sort of structure does your group have?
<prevod1> and we have OpenOffice group also http://sr.openoffice.org/
<mako> prevod1: sounds great
<mako> prevod1: are you limiting yourselves fully to l10n now or are you also working on other things, like conferences and such that sabdfl asked above?
<prevod1> Sorry, On Gnome 2.10 update work 2 members
<sabdfl> prevod1: so, is your focus just translation at this point?
<sabdfl> or are you interested in advocacy or education or media or other fields?
<sabdfl> ok
<prevod1> http://www.fsn.org.yu/ FSN Serbia have conferences in plan
<sabdfl> prevod1: thanks for coming to this meeting and keep us posted on your plans!
<prevod1> They have magasine http://gnuzilla.fsn.org.yu/ 
<mdke> it would be cool to have an ubuntu presence
<mako> prevod1: if you are still around at the end, we can talk more
<sabdfl> let us know if we can help you in any way, with the conference or cd's or a virtual server or anything else
<sabdfl> mako: lead on
<mako> prevod1: we should move on right now to deal with the other people :)
<mako> alright.. new members
<mako> i saw a number of people in the intro names
<mako> DanielNeuenschwander?
<DanielN_> yep, here :)
<mako> motaboy: remind me before we finish with new candidates to go over you
<mako> DanielN_: why don't you introduce yourself, give us a few sentances to describe your work on ubuntu
<motaboy> mako: ok!
<mako> what you've done and what you will be doing
<mako> or want to be doing :)
<mako> DanielN_: run with it :)
<sabdfl> your work to date, and your vision for ubuntu, and how you think you can help it attain that vision
<DanielN_> well, i'm active since ~3-4 months in the german ubuntu forums
<sabdfl> if the other guys/girls on the agenda could prepare those intros, it will speed things up too!
<mako> dholbach, ogra, tseng, etc: you guys around to vouch for motu folks?
<opi> sorry guys, I'm sick and will not make it! :-( Have a nice, productive meeting and wait for my Python surprise (if I'll manage to code it;-))
<sabdfl> DanielN_: where are you based? what's going in your local town with free software?
<tseng> mako: present.
<DanielN_> i began focus on the packaging stuff, so i joinet #u-m to look, what happens there
<ogra> mako, sure
<mdke> get better soon opi 
<ivoks> opi: :(( tak care
<Seveas> opi, get well soon
<sabdfl> opi: pitter patter :-)
<\sh> we're here
<opi> see younext meeting
<\sh> opi:go and sleep and get better
<dholbach> DanielN_ didnt let me catch my breath in the motu interview :)
<ogra> mako, DanielN_ is frequently in #ubuntu-motu 
<tseng> DanielN_ is pretty inquisitive in #u-m, asking good questions about package-fu.
<sabdfl> DanielN_: which are the packages you are most interested in?
<ivoks> DanielN_: is making his way in packaging
<mako> DanielN_: it says on your wiki page that you maintain a package in universe and have been working on the Cxx translation?
<ogra> mako, its on the review page... we are lagging with reviews....
<dholbach> he has one package in the NEWPackages-queue and started working on Cxx, right DanielN_?
<DanielN_> mako: well, it's not in universe (yet?).. i'm just working on it and it's close to be finish
<DanielN_> dholbach: right ;)
<mako> ogra, dholbach: would guys be more comfortable waiting till the next meeting to take a look at that package?
<sabdfl> DanielN_: are you interested in any other aspects of ubuntu beyond code and packaging?
<dholbach> DanielN_: you're in switzerland, right? sabdfl asked about it :)
<tseng> can I give him +1 as member?
<mako> tseng: no
<mako> tseng: yes :)
<tseng> k.
<Mez> o_o
<ogra> mako, i'm fine with DanielN_ for membership he is very interested and does valuable stuff in #ubuntu-motu
<Mez> mako = schizophrenic
<sabdfl> mako: i'm getting mixed messages from you there :-)
<\sh> I would like to see DanielN_ also as member: +1 from me
<DanielN_> sabdfl: i'm more technical interested.. so packaging and those stuff would be main focused.. and i'm not a pretty good coder at all ;)
<ivoks> +1
<DanielN_> dholbach: yes, from switzerland :)
* mako reassigns all his bugs to DanielN_ 
<ogra> hehe
<ivoks> :)
<dholbach> *snigger*
<Mez> ah I wish we could all do that
<\sh> DanielN_: more gnome or kde...i forgot
<DanielN_> \sh: more gnome
* Mez reassings bugs to DanielN_ even though danielN doesnt even know about the project
<mdke> morning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> sorry late
<jsgotangco> morning
<dholbach> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> (6:30am)
<tseng> hi jerome.
<ogra> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<\sh> DanielN_: can I bribe you to become a kde fan? so u can learn from amu, riddell and me ;)
<DanielN_> sabdfl: so, what you wna tto know about switzerland? :)
<sabdfl> DanielN_: yes, was curious about the state of free software in your local community
<DanielN_> \sh: well, i'm open to all ;) just try it 
<ogra> DanielN_, naah, join the gnome team ;)
<mako> DanielN_: it would be nicer to document the page a bit more, but i'm happy approving you for memership based on the testimonials of motu's :)
<DanielN_> sabdfl: there is of course much of free software in companies (much server side stuff) there are a fiev LUGs too
<\sh> sabdfl: switzerland is not as big as the table mountain in cape town ;)
<anibal> mako, may I be next? I'm late for work already, I'm in Melbourne, Australia
<mako> DanielN_: ion3 team gets the babes/dudes
<mako> anibal: yes.. 
<sabdfl> DanielN_: +1 to you from me, thanks for your contribution so far and looking forward to working together going forward!
<mako> elmo: feelings?
<DanielN_> mako: i'll make it fine the wiki page ;) and thanks
<mako> DanielN_: thanks! and thanks for your work so far
<elmo> mako: sure
<DanielN_> sabdfl: great thank!!
<mako> DanielN_: welcome!
<mako> DanielN_: signed coc, on my desk :)
<jsgotangco> welcome
* dholbach congratulates DanielN_ :)
<mdke> welcome DanielN_ 
<DanielN_> yeah, WOHO :))
<mako> anibal: alright, you're up
<DanielN_> thanks to all of you
<ivoks> congrats DanielN_ 
<sabdfl> next up?
<Nafallo> congrats DanielN_ :-)
<mako> anibal: do the 3 sentence contributions + vision
<DanielN_> and to my "nerving-noobie-question" repeaters (now who is mentioned, guys) :)
<\sh> welcome DanielN_ :) 
<mako> sabdfl: anibal is jumping the queue so as to not be (more) late to work
<Mez> mako, maybe you shouldnt refer it as a "signed coc"  - you dont wanna know what went thgrough my head
<anibal> I would like to maintain my debian packages in ubuntu
<jsgotangco> we used to refer it as 'mako's CoC'
<ogra> yay DanielN_ 
* DanielN_ is damn happy :)
<ivoks> Mez: :)
<anibal> I maintain 2 packages of priority important, five of priority
<anibal> standard and 2 in section base.
<anibal> Section Priority        Package
<anibal> ======= =========       ======================
<anibal> perl    important       libtext-charwidth-perl
<anibal> perl    important       libtext-wrapi18n-perl
<anibal> net     standard        bsd-finger
<anibal> net     standard        nfs-utils
<anibal> net     standard        pidentd
<anibal> net     standard        portmap
<anibal> utils   standard        bzip2
<anibal> base    optional        fdutils
<anibal> base    optional        pump
<anibal> admin   optional        rpm
<mdke> ooh
<Seveas> Mez, http://www.coc.nl/dopage.pl?thema=any&pagina=algemeen&algemeen_id=126
<sabdfl> anibal: wow, that's a lot of responsibility, thanks for your contribution to free software and debian, and now ubuntu!
<Seveas> ;)
<DanielN_> well, it's late here, i'm going to sleep now :)
<sabdfl> night DanielN_
<DanielN_> cu all guys and thanks alot one more time ;)
<dholbach> bye DanielN_ 
<jsgotangco> bye
<Mez> :p Seveas 
<mako> alright, i know anibal from a number of places.. also met up in australia and other places before that
<\sh> DanielN_: have a good night night
<mako> been communicating off and on about ubuntu in a number of contexts for a while
<sabdfl> anibal: it will take some time for you to become a developer with upload to main, you'll need to start in motu, and go through the process, is that ok?
<anibal> I'm also getting involved with the debian-kernel team, and later with the ubuntu-kernel team
<mako> anibal: great.. that's a great way to contribute :)
<tseng> I dont know anibal, but thats an impressive list.
<mdke> awesome
<sabdfl> also, because debian has the benefit of maintainer exclusivity, we count on them to inject the pride and quality, then we work across packages
<dholbach> cool, anibal :)
<\sh> quite interessting work on his debian page
<elmo> anibal: are you aware we don't have a BML in Ubuntu and anyone is free to work on any package?
<sabdfl> so that means that none of us has a veto on a given package in ubuntu
<elmo> s/aware/\& and okay with the fact that/
<anibal> elmo, yes I know
<sabdfl> we can only do that because we have a much smaller set of maintainers, and because we get the packages from debian with the quality builtin, otherwise it would be a race to gentoo-land
<ogra> sabdfl, MOTU doesnt personalize packages... so no veto ;)
<dholbach> what's a BML? a black mailing list or what?
<anibal> that's okay with me
<elmo> dholbach: big maintainer lock
<sabdfl> dholbach: big maintainer lock
<dholbach> ah ok :)
<sabdfl> it's how debian ensures the quality of its packages
<sabdfl> but it would not work with the ubuntu model
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> i wasn't aware of that abbreviation
<sabdfl> anibal: ok cool, it will be great to have someone with your experience on board. have you met any of the motu yet?
<mako> i'm a little at a loss for what the best process is in terms of membership
<tseng> mako: it will be hard since he wants to touch things in main
<tseng> he'd have to work via someone else, which might be odd as he has the BML
<mako> tseng: yeah, that's a maintainership issue.. and we trust his packaging skills (he's our upstream  for those packages)
<sabdfl> well, his debian packages that come into our main are already a way for him to have a positive impact on ubuntu
<tseng> surely.
* mako nods
<sabdfl> if anibal wants to contribute to ubuntu, then the process would be the same for him as for anyone
<tseng> i have no problem with member status for strong debian contributors with interest.
<anibal> sabdfl, I have met mako, elmo, Kamion, Keybuk and many other during debconf4 and lca2005
<Keybuk> so, a question that's worth asking, is what he hopes to do in Ubuntu that he can't do by maintaining the same packages in Debian
<sabdfl> work with motu, become a maintainer and developer there, then become an uploader to main in time
<Keybuk> anibal?
<mako> Keybuk: i have a few answers for that :)
<anibal> Keybuk, I would like to get more involved with ubuntu directly
<\sh> I would like to hear his opinions on this bl**dy thread on d-d....how can ubuntu/debian debian/ubuntu work together in a human way
<Seveas> anibal, prepare to be spammed by the MOTU :)
<ivoks> :)
<mako> \sh: that's another meeting dude
<tseng> \sh: eh we need to save that for later
<ogra> \sh, not now
<tseng> \sh smackdown!
<\sh> that was only loud thinking 
<dholbach> Seveas: spammed?
<sabdfl> \sh: relax about that, it will settle down once everyone has had a chance to vent spleen
<Mez> dholbach, when John got talking abotu backports, he got spammed by MOTU (glares at ogra) lol.. to join them too
<ogra> heh
<Seveas> dholbach, notice the --> :) <-- it's a good thing too push new members to become MOTU's
<anibal> \sh, I don't see much of a problem with the interaction between debian ans ubuntu, I think is beneficial for both debian and ubuntu
<ogra> Mez, thats not spamming :)
<\sh> anibal: forget about it right now :) 
<Mez> sorry ogra, not spamming, just being espescially persistent (aka apamming)
<sabdfl> anibal: ok, i think it';s too soon to approve membership, but i'm personally happy to have you here and hope you'll enjoy working with the motu
<Nafallo> ogra: ... that's recruiting ;-).
<ivoks> i think anibal is really eager to go to work :)
<tseng> hm there is a really long list, maybe we need to focus more.
<ogra> Mez, i never give up on fresh meat for the universe ;)
<anibal> sabdfl, okay, NP
<sabdfl> once you have done some work with them we'll confirm membership for you, and devel access would be confirmed by the tech board
<Keybuk> anibal: after speaking with you at LCA I'm a little worried that you only with to become an Ubuntu maintainer because we've patched a couple of your packages in the past; when that wouldn't change, because we don't have any kind of Maintainership or NMU policy in Ubuntu -- people would still upload changes
<sabdfl> the last step would be uploading to main
<Keybuk> otoh, you're technical skills are good, so you'd be a great asset if you want to contribute :)
<dholbach> anibal: it will be cool to have you around in MOTU world :)
<Keybuk> and as mentioned at LCA, if you could package rpm 4.4 for us, that'd be great <g>
<sabdfl> Keybuk: anibal says that's no problem, i'll take him at his word on it
<anibal> Keybuk, that was mentioned before you arrived
<sabdfl> i think we're ok on that front
<mako> well, i'm happy to recognize anibals contributions through debian
<sabdfl> anibal - welcome to ubuntu, the motu are the place to get going, then once you've made some distinct contribution there we can confirm membership, maintainership in universe, then maintainership in main
<anibal> Keybuk, I'm very grateful about the ubuntu patches for my debian packages :)
<sabdfl> cool
<sabdfl> who's up next?
<Mez> StacyWebb
<Mez> according to the agenda
<ivoks> anibal: welcome
<mgalvin> should i speak sometime ?
<sabdfl> is stacy around?
<tseng> mgalvin: when we call you :P
<Seveas> mgalvin, you're after StacyWebb
<mgalvin> stepped away for a min, must have missed it, sorry
<mako> mgalvin: in any case, go on stacy hasn't spoken up yet
<mgalvin> ok, well I live in the US
<mgalvin> I'm an enterprise java developer, db developer, and cvs admin/releaes manager
<mgalvin> been using ubuntu since warty
<mgalvin> I co-authored (ported) the Unofficial Ubuntu Guide to the PowerPC arch
<mgalvin> help out on ubuntu-users
<mgalvin> report bugs
<sabdfl> that's an awesome document
<mdke> oh hi mgalvin 
<mgalvin> write install reports for install cds/dvds
<mgalvin> hanging around on ubuntu-motu learning new stuff
<mgalvin> sabdfl, thnx :)
<sabdfl> mgalvin: what is your primary area of interest?
* mdke draws mgalvin towards #ubuntu-docs
<mgalvin> started packaging some apps, libcwd, gnome-clipboard-daemon, mmsrip, ogre, cegui, ultimatestunts, tuxtype2
<mgalvin> Started process of becoming a DD
<mgalvin> Already have packages in Debian uploaded by my sponsor madduck
<mgalvin> hope to help keep us in sync with Debian and work on educational stuff, oh and java stuff since I am a java developer ;)
<mgalvin> I am also working on packaing up some games
<sabdfl> there's a big challenge out there now to produce a top-notch set of guides for different users
<dholbach> MOTUGames!
<mgalvin> my wiki page has some more stuff
<ogra> yeah
<mdke> sabdfl, nods
<Seveas> mgalvin, with educational stuff, fo you mean edubuntu/ltsp..?
<jsgotangco> +1 on mgalvin, he contributed his ppc doc for inclusion to svn
<dholbach> yeah, he has some packages in NEWPackages-queue
<\sh> hmm...siretart is not here ;)
<mgalvin> well, at first educational games...
<ogra> mgalvin, hey, we should talk ;)
<mgalvin> but yes, i would like to help out with edubuntu
<uniq> +1 for the ppc guide from me :)
<mgalvin> as well
<sabdfl> the guide for ppc is a great contribution
<sabdfl> +1 from me
<mdke> +1
<mako> +1
<ogra> +1
<mako> elmo: ?
<elmo> ack
<sabdfl> done!
<mgalvin> :)
<mako> bam
<Seveas> mgalvin, congrats!
<sabdfl> welcome aboard mgalvin
<mako> mgalvin: welcome!
<Mez> mako - why not just say +2
<mdke> welcome mgalvin 
<ogra> applause mgalvin 
<mako> mgalvin: signed coc on my desk ;)
<dholbach> woohoo
<mgalvin> yippie thanks all :)
<Mez> nvm - I'm an idot and saw mdke and mako as same name
<mako> SvenHerzberg ?
<\sh> mgalvin: welcome :)
<dholbach> mako: herzi's not here
<mako> alright
<mdke> Mez, ;)
<mako> MarekSpruell
<mako> ?
<Mez> they're too similar... half of them is the same!
<mako> nalioth ?
<nalioth> Howdy! I live in Houston, Tx and spend a lot of time in #ubuntu helpin out brand-new, new and beginner level folks
<mako> i don't understand the difference
<mako> but i appreciate the work :)
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<sabdfl> ok, who's up now?
<mako> sabdfl: nalioth
<nalioth> i only own PPC machines and have built a few binaries for them, but i'm not really into packaging
<mako> nalioth: that's absolutely fine, packaging is only one of many ways to contribute
<tseng> not into yet, or disinterested?
<sabdfl> nalioth: do you hang out on both the channel and the forums?
<mako> tseng: packaging is for weenies :)
<ogra> mako, bah
<tseng> mako: oh man, ill get you later.
* mako makes many enemies quickly
<Mez> nice to know what you think of the MOTU mako :P
<ogra> heh
<nalioth> I would like to see ubuntu become more dominant in the linux world, and in doing so, become more user-friendly (although it is the most user-friendly distro i've used)
* jsgotangco will never package then
<nalioth> sabdfl: i've been thinking about writing a couple wiki articles, don't hang around much on the forums
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> nalioth: your page seems a little thin
<sabdfl> nalioth: to be a member, you need to be able to point to some "substantial contribution", as well as have a clear idea for where you'd like ubuntu to get to in your community
<mako> nalioth: that's not to say that your contributions aren't substantiall.. just that it's not visibly documented on your page at the moment
<jsgotangco> he's been pretty active in #ubuntu though i noticed lately
<SquishyWaffle> I hate to interject but helping new people is a big deal.
<mako> SquishyWaffle: nobody is objecting to that
<Mez> I agree with SquishyWaffle 
<mdke> there is no disagreement
<mako> Mez: everybody agrees with SquishyWaffle :)
<Mez> IMO, the "n00bs" are the people we want to be supporting the most
<Mez> and they ned more focus
<SquishyWaffle> Newcomers are impressed at our newbie friendliness and thanks to people like nalioth, we can say with confidence that we fit this description.
<sabdfl> least of all me :-)
<mako> Mez: everybody agrees with that
<mako> sabdfl: no, least of all *me*
* SquishyWaffle shuts up :)
<sabdfl> nalioth: what i'd be looking for is a plan to make your contribution somehow institutional
<elmo> mako: no, ME, damn you
<Mez> sabdfl, what do you mena by "institutional"
<elmo> (not that I have any idea what you're talking about)
<nalioth> what mez said :P
<mdke> *laughs* @elmo
<sabdfl> turn it into something that makes an ongoing difference to people
<mako> elmo: alright, you win. you are the least of all
<sabdfl> even if it's making a commitment to being in #ubuntu a few hours a week
<allee> where is the translation in xkb/symbol/* of:  key (like <i65>) to keycode (of xev) defined?  Once I knew :(
<sabdfl> or helping to structure the FAQ's
<allee> sorry wrong channel :(
<sabdfl> being a member is quite a serious responsibility
<jsgotangco> aye
<Mez> ah thanks sabdfl that's what I needed (so i cna answer that when it comes o my "questioning"
<mako> nalioth: also, providing testimonials and such is a good way to document your participation
<sabdfl> because the members select the CC, who are ultimately the group that determines policy and direction for the project
<sabdfl> the board of directors, sort of
<mako> nalioth: from current member who also hanging out on the channel
<nalioth> mako: you mean from other members?
<sabdfl> the members vote to confirm any nomination i make
<sabdfl> to the CC (elmo :-)
<mako> nalioth: sure.. operators, etc
<nalioth> there are some of them here now
<nalioth> or were
<sabdfl> developers / maintainers vote to confirm nominations to the Tech Board
<sabdfl> so when considering people for membership, i sort of like to be able to see where they want ubuntu to go
<sabdfl> because that will help us pick good CC members
<mako> nalioth: and we like to point to a pattern of specific example and concrete contributions we can point to
<nalioth> but committing time to #ubuntu is no problem, i'm there 2+ hours every day as it is
<sabdfl> that's a substantial contribution
<mako> nalioth: great, yes
<mdke> thats awesome
<sabdfl> nalioth: would you be prepared to lead a small team of "newbie gods"?
<Mez> sabdfl, if he isnt - I would be :d
<nalioth> sabdfl: ok (whatever a newbie-god is)
<tseng> yes a a group of regulars to help/police #ubuntu would be great.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<sabdfl> ops on #ubuntu, remind folks about the CoC if it gets too hot
<tseng> nalioth: do you know some other serious regulars?
<sabdfl> point people to docs
<mako> Mez: it's not a mutually exclsive group :)
<Mez> nalioth - do you think you have what it needs to "lead" them thoguh
<sabdfl> basically, take that 2 hours, and become part of the formal team with it
<Mez> true mak, but that was acually one of the things I'd like to see in ubuntu
<sabdfl> that would be a basis for membership
<Mez> mk o *
<Mez> godamnit
* Mez slaps his keybaord
<Seveas> i'd love to see nalioth a bit more in #ubuntu
<sabdfl> well, don't get hung up on leadership or authority, jsut commit to being there and helping people make it better
<Seveas> he's a good helper
<mako> Mez: nothing keeping you from taking a leadership role in thie regard to if it is line with the type of contributions you'd like to make
<nalioth> i like to teach people to fish
<sabdfl> leadership is best when it's emergent
<mako> Mez: but right, like sabdfl said
<mdke> or non existent ;)
<Mez> I agree with Seveas - he's given some good advice to me in the past - and when he hasnt been able to, pointed me in the roght direction (back when i was a complete n00b)
* mako nods at mdke 
* sabdfl thinks that's perhaps trite for a benevolent DICTATOR to be saying it :-)
<mdke> *grins*
<mako> mdke: damn anarchists
<sabdfl> ok
<ogra> lol
<mdke> LOL
<Mez> sabdfl, you're too well spoke n - reading what you wreite hurts my brains
<sabdfl> +1 to nalioth on the basis of past contribution and plans to help form a newbie help-squad
* Seveas likes the newbie-help squad
<mako> sabdfl: i'd really prefer to wait for 2 weeks
<mako> to see how it goes.. and to help build up the wiki page
* lsuactiafner would love to help also
<mako> get some testimonials, etdc
<jsgotangco> jdub: hi
<ogra> wohoo, jdub 
<tseng> pants off.
<Nafallo> jdub: morning jdub :-)
<Mez> if I could also suggest, maybe nalioth could hang around the absolute beginner forum on the forums aswell ?
<jdub> morning all
<\sh> jdub: my hero....:) nice work on planet design :) awsome
<sabdfl> ok
<jdub> \sh: all praise to steven garrity
<mdke> morning jdub 
<sabdfl> mako: it was only +1 not +100 in this case :-)
<mako> that's not a vote against, but i'd be more comfortable if we deferred until next meeting
<tseng> id like to see more testimonial/wiki stuff
<jsgotangco> who p.u.c has changed
<\sh> jdub: ok..hug this guy for me 
<Seveas> +1 on makos point
<mako> i'm happy to work with nalioth to get teh wiki page a little thicker, some testimonials and such
<sabdfl> so nalioth, is that clear? keep it up, start building a team, and come back in two weeks to revisit the membership option
<mako> yeah, i don't think it will be controverseal..
<mako> nalioth: work me directly if you are unsure about anything :)
<nalioth> mako ok
<Seveas> nalioth, can you keep me in touch about the newbie-squad idea too please
<mako> awesome
<Mez> and mako gains another acoloyte
* Seveas wants to be a part of the squad
<nalioth> Seveas: yep
<mako> Seveas: nice.. maybe we can make another meeting
<mako> i love those!!!
<mdke> *laughs*
<ogra> heh
<ivoks> :)
<mako> ok.. 
* Seveas hates meetings that start at midnight
<mdke> that mako guy is a masochist
<mako> this leads into the next item though
<tseng> mdke: dude he uses ion
<mako> no wait it doesn't
<mako> motaboy: 
<tseng> mdke: of course he is.
<ogra> Seveas, just move some TZ away ;)
<mako> motaboy: you still around?
<motaboy> mako: her I am
<Seveas> ogra, neh, I work/live/study/have a fiancee here
<sabdfl> motaboy: you have the floor
<mako> motaboy: want to do a brief intro into what you've done where you see yourself taking ubuntu?
<motaboy> Ok.
<motaboy> I love kde and I become a kde dev 3 years ago joining the kdebluetooth project
<mako> wiki page is https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SimoneGotti
<motaboy> and doing some programs related to obex and syncing stuffs.
<mako> Riddell: you around?
<mako> any other kubuntites to vouch for motaboy?
<Riddell> mako: yep, motaboy has done a great job on koffice, kdebluetooth and other packages
<\sh> motaboy: u worked with the kde herd @gentoo?
<uniq> +1 for motaboy.
<Mez> motaboy - have you ever done any work for bluetooth on the PPC arcitecture?
* ogra knows that amo worked with motaboy 
<dholbach> i reviewed some packages, they were good
<ogra> amu even
<mako> motaboy: interestd in any non-code contributions?
<mako> loco team, something?
<motaboy> Yes I was a gentoo dev until some months ago.
<sabdfl> Simone, what have you been working on in Ubuntu so far?
<\sh> motaboy: why did u leave the gentoo project?
<mdke> motaboy is often in the #ubuntu-it channel
<motaboy> Mez: I received various mails from ppc users about kdebluetooth working correctly
<ogra> \sh, why did you ?
<Mez> motaboy, ah cool - was just wondering, caus eI know the apple bluetooth developer pesonally
<\sh> ogra: i didn't cause I never was inside the hard circle ;) gentoo e.v. is germany ;)
<motaboy> \sh: because I always like debian but it was not so much updated and I liked the source compilation
<motaboy> but I found that a source based distros has tooooooo much unresolvable problems...
<\sh> motaboy: understandable
<motaboy> and then camed ubuntu :D
<sabdfl> motaboy: so are you regularly providing the MOTU with patches?
<motaboy> sabdfl: I did some packages for kdebluetooth of course, abakus, metabar, koffice
<sabdfl> can anyone on the MOTU say that motaboy has already made a substantial contribution?
<mako> Riddell already has
<dholbach> i reviewed 2-3 packages of him
<ogra> i think so, dholbach reviewed some stuff afaik
<Riddell> motaboy has my total support
* mako channels Riddell's support
<\sh> kde people will get always a +1 
<motaboy> sabdfl: Maybe in these days I'm quite busy with work, but I'm doing to make the possible contribution I can do.
<\sh> only to have a good balance between kde and ogra ;)
<mako> \sh: well, kde people who make meaningful contributuion to ubuntu, i hope :)
<sabdfl> ok, +1 on the basis of Riddell's support
<motaboy> sabdfl: to kde and ubuntu
<jsgotangco> hmm i should update my kubuntu
* mako approves
* motaboy is fixing an NTLM bug in kio_http now...
<mako> elmo: ?
<sabdfl> elmo?
<elmo> ack
* motaboy nows that is not directly related to ubuntu... :P
<motaboy> s/now/knows
<mako> motaboy: gotta do the signed code of conduct dance :)
<ogra> +1 here  only to have a good balance between kde and ogra ;)
<mdke> motaboy, auguri
<tseng> motaboy: working with your upstream is WONDERFUL.
<mako> motaboy: thanks dude! now get some sleep
<mako> welcome
<tseng> motaboy: very related.
<\sh> ogra: ahaha ;)
<ogra> \sh, *g*
<motaboy> thanks to you all! :D
<\sh> welcome motaboy 
<jsgotangco> motaboy: congrats
<mdke> motaboy, do you have 20 seconds?
<dholbach> welcome simone
<mdke> quick idea
<mako> that's it for members
<ogra> yay motaboy 
<motaboy> mdke: yes
<sabdfl> next up!
<mako> irc ops
<mako> i think there are two issues here
<mdke> motaboy, PM
<sabdfl> happy to be given that, was given a nice tutorial on the details, happy to be of service
<mako> one is that we need to delegate somebody to actually implement the big batch of ops on teh chanserv levels
<dholbach> i apologize for leaving "early", but i have to get up early tomorrow - have a nice evening you all... see you
<mako> sabdfl: yeah, we already voted to op you.. :)
<\sh> mako: please remove me from the list to be a irc policeman for #ubuntu
<Amaranth> damn internet
<ivoks> :)
<Nafallo> dholbach: take care :-)
* Seveas volunteers for that, I know how chanserv works
<mako> jdub: that's you i think
<Amaranth> is the meeting over?
<jsgotangco> oohh lag
<\sh> cu dholbach 
<tseng> Amaranth: approving irc ops.
<mako> jdub: you own #ubuntu according to chanserv, can you help us get the list of people who we voted to op into the chanserv?
<Amaranth> oh
<mako> jdub: i can send you the url
<Amaranth> is it too late to inject myself into the agenda? :)
<mako> i don't see that part as requiring any action
<mako> except to poke jdub and makes ure it happens
<Seveas> Amaranth, we just passed the member stage
<Amaranth> yeah, that's the part i meant
<mako> so everyone, if you're on that list and the chanserv disagrees, poke jdub :)
<tseng> Amaranth: at the end perhaps.
<Amaranth> ok
<mako> the next thing was two more suggestions for ops
<tseng> Amaranth: speak up again then please.
<jdub> mako: yeah, if you can get me a list (including nicks) after the meeting, i'll fix it up
<jdub> mako: oh, nicks have to be registered too
<mako> jdub: awesome
<mako> jdub: ok, sure.. i suspect most are
<mako> Seveas and Corey Burger were both suggested as additional #ubuntu ops
<mako> both are members
<mako> i know of their contributiosn through irc already and happy to trust them with ops
<mako> (we do need more)
<Amaranth> Seveas should be an op
<Seveas> ...and show a lot of activity in #ubuntu :)
<ogra> +1
<jsgotangco> +1 on Corey Burger
<sabdfl> fine by me, they have both been steady and valuable members
<mako> Seveas: right, which is the badly needed thing
<mdke> yeah corey / seveas rock
<mako> elmo: any issues?
<elmo> nope
<jsgotangco> heh
<Seveas> sabdfl, on a totally off-topic road: are you still interested in grid computing things, if so, poke me after the meeting
<mako> ok.. the #kubuntu is owned by haggai
<motaboy> Night All and thanks again!
<Seveas> g'might motaboy 
<sabdfl> Seveas: yes absolutely
<ogra> night motaboy 
<\sh> cu around motaboy 
<Riddell> mako: it's owned by daniels as far as I remember
<Amaranth> #kubuntu could use some op love, i've had people in #ubuntu tell me they don't want to go there because people are acting like jerks
<mako> Riddell: according to chanserv, the contact is haggai
<mdke> i have just thought of an irc related issue for #ubuntu-doc, the topic is locked down and the founder is no longer part of the team
<Seveas> fooishbar hass access 30 in #kubuntu
<mako> Riddell: can you sort that?
<mako> Riddell: i'm happy delegating op distribution on that channel as you see fit to you and your team unless you want to go through us
<tseng> mdke: can you try contacting him via email first?
<Amaranth> mdke: talk to a staff member
<mako> Riddell: what is average size
<Amaranth> mdke: freenode staff, i mean
<mdke> tseng, yeah i will do so
<tseng> mdke: thanks.
<tseng> freenode staff is a last resort.
<Riddell> mako: usually about 80 on the channel
<mdke> tseng, actually might be able to get hold of him in irc
<jsgotangco> mdke: who?
<tseng> mdke: k, im sure he will gladly hand it over.
<mako> Riddell: alright.. big enough that ops would be good.. small enough that you can probaboly handle it
<mdke> its chris haas
<mako> Riddell: but it's up to you guys
<Riddell> mako: ok, I'll sort it out with haggai and daniels
<mako> Riddell: excellent :)
<mako> sabdfl: sound reasonable?
<mako> Riddell: then talk to uniq :)
<mako> smurfix: you around?
<sabdfl> mako: perfectly
<smurfix> yep
* ivoks didn't sleep for 72 hours... can't stay awake a minute longer... see you
<Amaranth> bye
<Seveas> g'night ivoks, sleep well
<mako> so it sounds like your someone else was calling for a sort of LoCo HOWTO ?
<mako> ivoks: night
<Nafallo> ivoks: nightie :-P
<lsuactiafner> mako : would alos like a loco howto
<mdke> me too
<mdke> good idea
<smurfix> mako: simira, last meeting. I'll have to put some effort into that
<mdke> there is a fair amount of information already tho
<sabdfl> that's an excellent idea
<mako> mdke: is that something the docteam could help with?
<ogra> mdke, why did CHaas leave ?
<mdke> mako, we are a little understaffed, but I personally will be pleased to help, and we can ask them
<lsuactiafner> we are trying to spread open-source, if that information is easily available more ppl might join us
<mdke> ogra, before my time I'm afraid, I believe he is a debian developer
<mako> smurfix: do you know of any really well done loco's that might be able to help distill a little advice ?
<smurfix> I was hoping that there'd be a miling list *soon* so that I could get a discussion among the loco people going on what works for them
<ogra> mdke, yep, he's from debian mentors
<mdke> portugal is quite good i think
<Seveas> mako, french/spain/norwegian loco (treated last time) seem to be really good
<smurfix> Basically most of the ones in the "official" list ;-)
<mako> mdke, smurfix: would you be willing to start a wiki page and outline for brain dump and then contact those folksd
<mdke> yeah
<smurfix> already have a wiki page
<mako> smurfix: wonderful :)
<smurfix> it's a child of the agenda right now
<jdub> smurfix: will do that straight away
<smurfix> jdub: thanks
<mdke> btw make sure to link the wiki page
<mako> awesome!
<smurfix> mdke: sure
<mako> smurfix: was there more you wanted on this issue?
<mdke> who will be involved with the mailing list?
<mako> i guess that's the next item :)
<smurfix> mdke: all loco contact people will be subscribed to it
<mako> "other loco items"
<mako> right, we'd mentioned this last time.. good idea :)
<smurfix> mako: not that I know of, but then it's kindof late :-/
<mdke> ohuh
<mako> mdke: ?
* mdke smells trouble for his anarchistic teams without leaders ideas
<mako> mdke: no dude, it's CONTACTS
<mdke> yeah
<mako> not leaders
<sabdfl> absolutely - coordination
<mako> they can be rotating contacts even
* jsgotangco reminds mdke that docteam is anarchistic heh
<sabdfl> and we'll welcome multiple people from a loco to subscribe to it
<jdub> smurfix: you'll get a mail soon, you just need to set the info/description and click the list over to public
<smurfix> jdub: splendid
<mdke> the distinction between contact/leader isn't wholly clear from the wiki pages
<mdke> but i understand what you are getting at
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> mako: when we're done with the agenda, i want to gives folks a heads up on the docteam situation
<mako> mdke: that's probably because we used to have leaders and then sort of just changed it.. there is a more fundemental rewrite that probably would be good but hasn't happened yet yet
<sabdfl> give
<mako> sabdfl: yes.. we're almost there
<mako> smurfix: more loco stuff?
<smurfix> mako: nope, not from me anyway
<mako> from anybody else?
<mako> loco stuff?
<mdke> mako, as i understand it there are both contacts and leaders now
<mdke> right?
<mako> mdke: ehh.. that's a longer discussion :)
<mdke> ok
<mako> mdke: the teams have some autonomy.. and the change wasn't retroactive
<smurfix> mdke: basically, contacts are required, but whether a team has a leader or not is their decision
* mdke nods
<mako> alright, sabdfl the floor
<Amaranth> ?
<mako> it's any other business time
<mako> and sabdfl has other business
<mako> about the doc team
* Seveas has other business too
<sabdfl> ok, just a heads up for the CC members and the community
<sabdfl> the doc team has done some fantastic work, and has also struggled a little bit for direction and leadership
<sabdfl> i've been watching quietly to see how things would unfold
<sabdfl> recently they seem to be more unwinding than unfolding, so i think we should ask them to come to the CC formally
<mdke> *grins*
<sabdfl> let's try put a plan in place which gives them the direction and authority to make decisions that i think they need
* mako nods
<mdke> sabdfl, i had a good chat with jdub about this today
<sabdfl> but also makes them aware of the fact that they need to work within a framework, especially if they want stuff running on core servers
<tseng> does anyone have a summary of the issue we are trying to resolve?
<mdke> i can try
<sabdfl> i was especially concerned about the "people with email addresses @ubuntu.com" because every member is entitled to an email address @ubuntu.com (not just canonical folks)
<sabdfl> elmo is looking guilty across my dining room table at this moment :-)
<mdke> is that related to docteam?
<sabdfl> nonetheless, this is a team effort, and the doc team is very much part of that team
<sabdfl> tseng: formats, structures, goals, tools
<tseng> sabdfl: so problems coming to a concensus?
<sabdfl> i don't want to prejudge the issue, i'd like them to bring it to the CC
<sabdfl> tseng: more problems getting ideas agreed on and executed
<tseng> sure.
<mdke> i think that is slightly harsh
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: at the moment, one of our top gun just quit
<mako> tseng: there was a mini flame war about yelp that mark is probably alluded
<sabdfl> in particular, there have been some cases where they decided to use a tool, then ran into difficulty getting that tool setup on core servers
<mdke> the problem has been a lack of direction in general
<sabdfl> we can't easily support PHP stuff in our core server set, for security reasons, etc
<Seveas> wouldn't it be a good idea to have a docteam meeting to create directions for the near future?
<jsgotangco> we'll just have to do what we currently have and create  a roadmap for future releases
<tseng> what about on the virtual servers?
<sabdfl> since it is entirely a volunteer team, i don't feel that we can instruct them, only try to cooperate
<tseng> if something is already developed.
<jsgotangco> Seveas: we plan to hold a meeting this weekend or next
<sabdfl> and find a path that will give them excellent justice
<sabdfl> so to speak
<mako> jsgotangco: that sounds great
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: good idea
<sabdfl> to which i'd like to invite the CC members
<jsgotangco> at the moment, we now only have 3 active contributors to svn
<jsgotangco> that is a problem
<Seveas> jsgotangco, ah nice, please announce it in the topic here and at ubuntu-{doc,devel}@lists
<mako> sabdfl: i agree completely about the volunteer thing
<jsgotangco> Seveas: yes, i'll cross post
<mdke> i slightly disagree, we need instruction to some extent
<mako> sabdfl: i think we need to take a much bigger role in sitting down with them to set clear goals
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: can i ask you, sean wheller and others to draft up a wiki page listing the issues, as well as your preferred team plan, irrespective of issues in the past with @ubuntu.com email addresses :-)
<mako> sabdfl: and then working with them through the entire process
<mdke> because otherwise what happens is, we develop our own methodology and this then gets shot down
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: sean wheller has just quit
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: let's see if he's at least help us frame this plan, he's got a good handle on the discussion
<mako> sabdfl: the docteam is repeatedly complaining that they an island, or underappreciated, or have a strained relationship with the rest of the project
<Seveas> jsgotangco, me, nalioth probably and probably more of the soon-to-be newbie-help squad can assist too
<sabdfl> mako: the CC is the right place for them to start building that bridge and getting the support they need
<jsgotangco> i'll email sean and pick up the pieces of past conversations, its all there
<mako> sabdfl: i agree.. :)
<sabdfl> they've never interacted with us as a group
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: let's try to heal any wounds and make a real effort to get agreement on this
<mdke> that would be appreciated
<mdke> :)
<sabdfl> i read the most recent thread, and saw lots of CAN! CANNOT! CAN! CANNOT! type discussions
<jsgotangco> heh
<mako> yes
<sabdfl> and my feeling is that folks who want to do the work should be picking the tools
<sabdfl> but again, let's not prejudge the issue
* mako agrees with sabdfl 
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> that's not the message that has come down to us
<sabdfl> mdke: in what way?
<mdke> lots of tools/methodologies have been rejected
<mdke> often rightly
<sabdfl> the ubuntu project is getting big enough that there are going to be conflicting ideas
<sabdfl> so teams need to do a bit of work to win other parts of the project over to their side
<mdke> well we try
<mako> my sense is that the docteam is in a strange power situation
<sabdfl> if you want to use tools, but the sysadmins are not comfortable running them on the core network, we have a whole suite of virtual servers available for LoCo teams that can be commandeered
<mdke> but my personal view is that as far as methodology is concerned, direction from up top would work well
<tseng> i suggested that above :P
<tseng> i think it would be very easy to point a subdomain at a virtual server and enable any tools they need in a sandbox.
<mdke> mako, can you explain?
<tseng> w/o making elmo scream
<mako> i've sense this recurring theme of the docteam not being part of the core ubuntu community and running into disagreement when dealing with "the project" or "canonical"
<sabdfl> more importantly, rather than getting into a fight with one or two people, we need to help the doc team formulate their plans and communicate them clearly so we can help them make it happen
<mdke> sabdfl, ++
<sabdfl> mako: partly, i think that's because there's not been a full time person on the team
<sabdfl> not to lead, but just to be a bridge to other people in other parts of the project
<Seveas> ++ from me too, i really look forward to the docteam meeting
<mako> "we do this work, create a methodology, they say no" .. i'm not sure that's an very accurate or even useful narrative.. but it's one i've heard in the last couple weeks on that list
<mdke> the loss of enrico was a big one
<mako> mdke: yes
<jsgotangco> very
<sabdfl> i'm happy for one of the canonical guys to take a more regular role in working with the docteam
<sabdfl> anyhow
<sabdfl> let's not have the meeting now
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<mdke> sabdfl, we would be VERY happy :)
* mako nods
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: you're on the doc team, right?
<jsgotangco> at the moment, i will handle the whip
<mdke> i was delighted when henrik started getting involved
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: i handle the whip for now
<mako> jsgotangco: thanks ;)
<mako> mdke: me too
<sabdfl> could you bring everyone together? try to get sean and jdub and everyone else who's been part of the discussion
<mdke> he has lots of great ideas
<mako> sabdfl: is right.. htis is another meeting
<mako> i want to be there too
<sabdfl> ask them to do a wiki page which states - even handedly - the points that have been discussed
<mako> i can even help organize it if you want
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: will do and send the email by today
<sabdfl> let it state both sides where there are divergent views
<mako> jsgotangco: excellent
<mdke> cool
<sabdfl> and then let's get the CC to try and help give it direction
<smurfix> I can help with virtual server stuff if necessary
<mako> smurfix: excellent!
* smurfix has been doing lots of that lately
<jsgotangco> great
<mako> winner
<mako> alright
<sabdfl> ok, thanks all
<mako> enough on that?
<mako> ANY OTHE BUSINESS
<mako> ?
<sabdfl> mako: well done
<smurfix> Any progress on the Linode side, by the way?
<mdke> thanks mako
<tseng> mako: yes, Amaranth 
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: thanks
<jsgotangco> mako: thanks
<tseng> he missed the members section
<mako> smurfix: i will kick them
<Seveas> mako, yes, the list of members-that-need-to-show-up seems to be groing
<mako> tseng: i'll give him a members file if that's ok
<smurfix> mako: PLease do that, it starts getting urgent
<tseng> oh nice
<mako> tseng: it's a text file but it's, uh, er, canonical (!)
<Seveas> isn't it an idea to throw out people that don't show up multiple times?
<smurfix> more so if we set up one for the doc people
<nalioth> his puter doesnt want him to speak
<tseng> mako: i mean he was on the list
<mako> dude, 
<mako> picked a bad time to leave
<tseng> exactly.
<mako> any other business
<mako> ?
<tseng> not anymore :P
<mako> tseng: bad timing
<mdke> he was up for ops in #ubuntu right?
<mako> next meeting will be at 12UTC? in two weeks?
<mako> mdke: we can handle that later
<mako> any objections?
<mako> alright.. that's the time
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Seveas> make, are you ignoring me?
<Seveas> mako*
<mako> Seveas: no.. go ahead
<Seveas> mako, yes, the list of members-that-need-to-show-up seems to be growing
<Seveas> isn't it an idea to throw out people that don't show up multiple times?
<mako> Seveas: we move them to the bottom
<Seveas> (admitted, the list is still small now :))
<mako> Seveas: if they haven't showed up.. and if they still aren't there after some weeks, we toss em
<mako> Seveas: i might toss hiweed this week
<mako> he's welcome to come back of course
<Seveas> you can toss rave too
* mako nods
<tseng> i saw hiweed a total of once.
<mako> Seveas: was that it?
<Seveas> yes :)
<mako> nobody objected to my proposed time.. 
<ogra> mako, MatinEricRacine didn show up since months
<mdke> good time
<Seveas> and thanks for the 12am :D
<mako> my turn to get up at 6am :)
<mdke> aww
<\sh> ok..time to sleep for me now..this morning at 9am (7am utc) digital tv is waiting for me
<mako> maybe earlier :)
<nalioth> mako: by testimonials do you mean on the wiki or seveas in here tellin what a pita i am?
<mako> nalioth: we'll talk later :)
<smurfix> same here  ... smurfix => bed. :-/
<mako> let me.. END THE MEETING
<mako> BANG
* Seveas needs to be at a PHd defence in 8 hours, so i'm going to bed
<nalioth> ok
<jsgotangco> BANG
<mdke> good luck Seveas 
<mako> alright thanks everyone!
<sabdfl> mako: we can use the LP stuff for membreship from next time onwards
<\sh> good night...thx for the meeting...mako well done :)
<jsgotangco> Seveas: good luck
<mako> sabdfl: *great*
<sabdfl> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/ubuntumembers
<mako> sabdfl: is it ready already?
<sabdfl> folks, sign up there
<Nafallo> my rabbit tries to eat my carpet. is the meeting over? ;-)
<smurfix> cool
<jsgotangco> will do
<mdke> supercool
<mako> sabdfl: will require rewriting some of the process stuff
<sabdfl> it's nonobvious how to use it, so bonus points for those who figure it out :-)
<sabdfl> i'll work on the UI over the coming weeks
<mako> sabdfl: nice :)
<ogra> Nafallo, does it do that normally if meetings are over ? 
<sabdfl> mako: it will just help us keep the list of who's applied, and who's been approved, and who's declined for now
<mdke> will be cool when signed CoC capability is back in launchpad
<mako> sabdfl: cool
* mako nods
<Nafallo> ogra: naah, just me that doesn't wanna leave a meeting :-)
<sabdfl> when we have CoC stuff we can make some things automatic
<mako> alright.. my dinner is well cold by now :)
<sabdfl> er... well done dennis :-)
<sabdfl> night all
<mdke> night
<mako> good night! :)
<Seveas> thnx sabdfl :)
<ogra> night sabdfl 
<mgalvin> good nigh all
<tseng> bye sabdfl 
<Seveas> 'night all 
<jsgotangco> night
<sabdfl> night all
<nalioth> later y'all
<xuzo> night all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-16
<blahrus> date --utc
<panickedthumb> put that command in a terminal not here :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-12
<Eleaf> yar mate
<Eleaf> I shall part, mate'.
<juantao> pardon me, can you tell me when the community council meets next ?
<jenda> juantao: not announced yet. Should be this week, I think.
<jenda> I'm looking forward to that too ;)
<juantao> Hello, I've applied for Ubuntu membership and want to participate in the next meeting of the Community Council. Would someone be kind enough to email me the meeting time? Thanks: info AT computerdropoff.org
<bluekuja> juantao: see the cc meetingagenda for it, when the time will be decided that page will be updated
<juantao> got it, thank you.
<jenda> indeed :) I'm lurking and waiting for the next CC meeting as well.
<Spec> I always miss them (assuming they take place :p)
<rikai|ddr> Spec: nah, its a conspiracy to drive you mad!
<aseigo> Riddell: ping?
<Riddell> hi aseigo, 1 hour to go
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
* jenda wonders what that one hour to go is for...
<aseigo> Riddell: ok... so i'm early, good =) the reminder just popped up on my desktop and i dismissed it before checking if i set it to go off an hour early (what i usually do =) or right on time
<aseigo> Riddell: i suppose i could've just checked my calendar =P
<aseigo> jenda: the end of the world.
<aseigo> jenda: prepare now.
<jenda> Oh no!!!
<jenda> Really? Just as I was beginning to like it...
<aseigo> heh =)
<aseigo> it's ok. we're replacing it with a better model.
<aseigo> you won't notice a thing save for an uptick in contentment
<jenda> OK, but will I be implemented?
<aseigo> up to you. it's an opt-in sort of thing
<jenda> I guess the last statement implies it in a way... unless a feature is more content when obsolete...
<rikai> ...
<ervin> hello
<jenda> hello ervin
<aseigo> ervin: yo dude
<aseigo> sebas: howdy
* aseigo senses a disturbance in the force
<sebas> hidiho aseigerino
* sebas notes that he didn't forget without using korganizer.
* ervin gives sebas a cookie
* sebas accepts and bows thankfully.
<aseigo> sebas: you're a better man than i
<mornfall> EHLO mornfall.net
<mornfall> :] 
<sebas> aseigo: Good to know, based on which metrics? ;-)
<sebas> Moin mornfall 
<aseigo> sebas: remembering without reminders flashing in the middle of your screen ;)
<aseigo> sebas: and probably many others. i'm not a hard act to beat, i'm afraid.
<aseigo> it's like leaping over midgets
<sebas> pastasalad made it possible
<sebas> aseigo: Heh, I guess you'd win a karaoke match every time
* sebas has koffie
<sebas> LoL Sime|3-1 :D
<aseigo> well, there are -some- things that i'm less midgetlike in than others i suppose =)
<ogra> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<Sime> hi all
* mornfall commits
<mornfall> so, i am yours
<sebas> Moin dfaure 
<dfaure> hi
<ervin> hey dfaure 
<el> hey
<mornfall> 'lo
<Riddell> ervin, el, Sime, sebas, kwwii, aseigo and mornfall should be everyone
<sebas> el!
* ervin didn't notice el, shame on him
<el> sebas!
<el> :)
<ervin> hello el =)
<el> hehe, i've been here waiting for you for 2 hours already
<el> hi ervin :)
<sebas> Welcome to UTC el ;-)
<Riddell> mdz wanted a reminder too
* sebas admits that he had been here as well 2 hours ago, if dfaure didn't note that.
<el> not because i didn't know when it starts, sebas ;-)
<Riddell> so, has everyone booked travel?
<sebas> el: Ah, bummer. 
<el> jupp
<ervin> yep
<sebas> Positive.
<ogra> Riddell, would be nice if your meetings would show up on the fridge ...
<kwwii> I have, now we should just fight over who shares rooms :-)
<Sime> sebas: are you going to paris? and when?
<mornfall> hopefully :-) ... although i don't know where i am supposed to get tickets (agent response pending)
<ervin> how many people per room?
<aseigo> dammit.. sorry.. bRb
<sebas> Sime: On sunday prior to the meeting, via Rotterdam by Thalis
<sebas> Sime: And you?
<Riddell> mornfall: when did you talk to the travel agent?#
<Sime> sebas: thursday.
<sebas> Aye, I'll have to leave on friday around noon already, have to speak at a conference that weekend
<mornfall> Riddell: well, Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:47:11 +0100 is last echo, asking me if i can collect ticket from brno office of CSA, me acking, no response since
<Riddell> Sime: this thursday or next thursday?
* Sime has a day job.
<Sime> Riddell: next.
<mornfall> Riddell: i pinged today just in case
<jenda> @now Prague
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Prague: June 12 2006, 19:04:04 - Next meeting: Edubuntu  in 1 day
<jenda> hmm... what is going on now?
<Riddell> Sime: cool
<Riddell> mornfall: cool
<ogra> jenda, i was wondering that too
<Riddell> jenda: secret KDE meeting
<aseigo> which is -like- the end of the world
<aseigo> sorry about tha tpeople
<jenda> ah... that's it ;)
* aseigo is back in black
<sebas> *What* is like to EOW?
<mornfall> sebas: secret kde meeting
<sebas> s/to/the
<aseigo> ha
<aseigo> btw, my birthday is on the 18th
<mornfall> although secret kde meeting is better
<Riddell> so, the summit, you should all know this isn't a conference it's a developers meeting
<mornfall> ack
<Riddell> the format is mostly sitting around tables in small groups discussing the specs
<aseigo> so seeing as i will be travelling to this little ubuntu swuare (sp) instead of staying home and getting properly trashed ... 
<Riddell> it's quite strictly timetabled
<sebas> aseigo: We'll take care of that trashing then.
<aseigo> sebas: brilliant.
<mornfall> off the timetable ;-)
<ogra> aseigo, its not EOW, but if you rely on the fridge schedule that the room is free it can be a bit annoying if you want ot use the logging facilities here for a spontaneous meeting
<sebas> Riddell: Are there schedules available already?
<aseigo> Riddell: yeah, i'm quite happy about htat
<Riddell> and anyone not up at 09:00 will be in deep trouble
<Riddell> sebas: no, not until the day before usually
<sebas> And how much room for spontaneous "let's do this *now*" is there?
<ervin> Riddell: 09:00 utc or cest? :o)
<mornfall> Riddell: 8... am?
<sebas> Exactly ervin :-)
<Riddell> Paris time
<mornfall> err 8
<mornfall> 9999 i mean, 9
<mornfall> not 8, silly keyboard
<ogra> Riddell, anyone not in the room where mark talks at 9:00 will be in deep trouble ... you need to be up earlier ;)
<aseigo> Riddell: and by "up" you mean "at the table ready to work" right?
<ervin> up at 9am or ready at 9am ? (just to be sure it's clear to everyone)
<Riddell> ready at 9am as ogra says
<mdz> Riddell: morning; I'm around if I can answer any questions
<ogra> aseigo, present ... not looking like sleeping ;)
* aseigo notes that even if his body is up his mind rarely is before 10:00
<el> Riddell, where can we see the schedule? 
<sebas> What exactly is "deep trouble"?
<aseigo> sebas: wet willies
<sebas> Sent home with note to parents? 
<Riddell> el: daily schedules arn't really ready until the day before
<sebas> Ouch.
<ogra> sebas, being locked in the cellar with water and bread indeed :)
<el> Riddell, ah
<dfaure> isn't http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event the scedule?
<sebas> Hm, ok. 9 is fine then.
<Riddell> dfaure: not for the conference
<dfaure> ah ic
<ogra> dfaure, not for the paris summit
<kwwii> when will the schedule be made and who will make it?
<Riddell> don't worry about the early start, these places always have a great breakfast to get you going
<kwwii> ah...reading back, every day
<ogra> kwwii, the management usually makes the schedule for the next day in the evening
<Riddell> kwwii: the schedule is made by the patent pending BoFicator that's built into launchpad
<ogra> it gets published in the morning ...
<aseigo> Riddell: are the specs to be created from scratch there or are there a set of these we can look at before arriving from which we'll be working?
<Riddell> so... the specs
<Riddell> here's the ones I've registered https://launchpad.net/people/jr/+specs
<Riddell> the Undefined ones
<Riddell> and here's the ones everyone else has registered https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
* ervin already picked his favorites there ;)
<kwwii> tango?
<aseigo> Riddell: and these are all 3.5 based issues correct?
<Riddell> aseigo: yes
<Riddell> well, maybe not xgl
<Riddell> I've no idea what will go into that
<ervin> this one looks like the most difficult if we target 3.5 imho
* aseigo notes that pauleta of portugal's celebration thing was pretty lame
<mornfall> is the 4 month schedule plan still in effect?
<kwwii> Riddell: what about all the art and themeing? should that go in there as well?
<Riddell> you should probably get an account on launchpad and Subscribe Yourself to any specs you want so the BoFicator will timetable you for those discussions
<Riddell> kwwii: there's kubuntu-icons, general art (wallpapers etc) hasn't needed a spec before since it's just "use whatever cool stuff turns up"
<ervin> does it mean that no new specs will be created during the summit?
<aseigo> Riddell: hm... who all will be at the kubuntu tables? e.g. for the tango icon theme thing will holbach be there?
<Riddell> aseigo: if you Subscribe Yourself to the spec then the BoFicator will timetable you to be at that discussion
<ogra> ervin, specs have to be registered before 
<ervin> ok
<Riddell> otherwise you can go to whatever table you like
<aseigo> Riddell: heh. oh boy. someone's going to try and schedule me? =)
<ogra> ervin, the summit is only for discussing them in personal
<kwwii> that fact would have been nice to know in advance
<sebas> Sounds like little room for new ideas
<ervin> what's the average duration of such discussions on a spec?
<el> Riddell, i can't see the kubuntu usability spec anywhere you sent me the link to
<dfaure> sebas: why? surely one can create a spec even during the meeting
<aseigo> Riddell: are the specs usually scheduled in clusters according to topic .. e.g. "tuesday is art day"
<ervin> since it's boficated... I suppose it's not very flexible
<sebas> I understood one couldn't
<ervin> dfaure: ogra disagree with you iiuc
<Riddell> ervin: it's BoFicated every evening
<Riddell> el: that spec was considered too general, the feeling is we should only have more specific specs
<ervin> Riddell: I meant how much time a spec is discussed? 1h, 2h? more?
<ogra> ervin, well, i suppose there can be exceptions, but i havent seen that at any conf yet
<Riddell> el: so it's superceded with adept-usability, and if there's other areas we need to look at we can do that separately
<Riddell> ervin: 1 hour sessions I think
<Riddell> ervin: and if you run out time the BoFicator will schedule you another sessions for the next day
* mornfall would probably like something more spontaneous... will there be free rooms off the timetable?
<Riddell> assuming it can fit you in
<mornfall> or maybe in the evening with some beer :-)
<ervin> ok
<ogra> mornfall, evenings are all free
<Riddell> mornfall: towards the end of the week there's less discussions and more time scheduled for people to proofread and even free time
<Riddell> so spontanious ideas can happen then
<Riddell> and of course there's meal times and evening
<mornfall> how much hacking time can i expect to have there? :)
<aseigo> Riddell: i do have a question regarding target audience ... is there going to be a general "getting oriented as to what kubuntu's goals are" for those of us who may not be overly familiar with that?
<Riddell> mornfall: none
<mornfall> in an ideal world, the adept-usability bof would be early on and one near the end where i have (some of it) implemented for review :)
<mornfall> Riddell: that's not much
<ogra> mornfall, you should prepare your stuff in advance
<Riddell> mornfall: obviously uou can subscribe yourself to no BoFs and sit in a corner and hack but the idea is to discuss stuff face to face
<eln> .... sorry, kde crashed
<Riddell> eln: what did you last see?
<eln> frozen, actually
<kwwii> that's ok, america is loosing in football as well
<aseigo> s,kde,x11,
<mornfall> Riddell: well, i did great pair hacking at debconf :)
<eln> no answer to my question, Riddell 
<aseigo> kwwii: ssh ... i haven't watched that one yet =P
<mornfall> Riddell: anyhow, there aren't quite enough BoFs to fill all of the week, now, are there? i don't count those that are completely beyond me
<Riddell> eln: http://pastebin.com/704676
<aseigo> Riddell: also when would be the best time to find some f-2-f with the canonical people regarding coordination opportunities between kde e.v. and them?
<Riddell> aseigo: good question, mdz will that be possible?
<eln> Riddell: thanks
<eln> Riddell: so if i create some more specific specs, can we still add them?
<mornfall> kwwii: with czech republic, yes ;-)
<aseigo> Riddell: i'm also curious as to how meal arrangements tend to work (food is always an issue for me ;) and what our broad objectives, if any, are beyond "plan edgy"
<eln> Riddell: for example going through the initial setup and making it smooth
<Riddell> eln: initial setup of what?
<sebas> Additionally for "the Marketing Dude", specs don't seem to work.
<eln> Riddell: adept is the second on my list, 
<aseigo> el: would that be covered by the default settings spec?
<aseigo> eln: would that be covered by the default settings spec?
<sebas> I'd try to seek common ground between KDE promotion and Kubuntu promotion, how that fits in current activities ... 
* aseigo agrees with sebas
<eln> Riddell: you start kubuntu the first time, then want to configure your sound, printer, etc
<aseigo> we really do need some "business issue" time
<Riddell> sebas: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-marketing
<eln> so mostly kcontrol, but with a special regard to those first-time settings
<Riddell> eln: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-default-settings-review
<sebas> Riddell: That's merely promotion
<aseigo> Riddell: if it's just us there for that spec it won't really be accomplishing what we hope and need to
<sebas> Marketing goes far beyond that, it's about strategies, target groups, relationships 
<mornfall> sebas: fix the spec description then? :)
<Riddell> sebas: as mornfall says
<mornfall> specs can accomodate lots of things
<sebas> Riddell: I'll think about what can be added, wasn't aware of the whole setup 20 minutes ago :-)
<Riddell> aseigo: we'll poke sabdfl and management to make sure they're subscribed
<aseigo> Riddell: thanks =)
<eln> Riddell: not only defaults, also some modifications in kcontrol regarding information architecture and ui
* dfaure wonders if the BoFicator takes into account travel dates, like me being there for only 24 hours
<Sime> eln: system-settings you mean?
<mornfall> Riddell: are the non-undefined BoFs open for subscription too?
<eln> yes, Sime 
* jenda jumps in: Shouldn't marketing KDE and Kubuntu join with the marketing of Ubuntu in general? Mostly Ubuntu Morketing doesn't specialise on Gnome...
<dfaure> mornfall: yes
<Sime> eln: instead of kcontrol. 
<Riddell> mornfall: all the paris ones are https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
<eln> hehe, yes, Sime 
<aseigo> jenda: preferable, yes
<mdz> aseigo: we can schedule in a BOF session to do exactly that
<mdz> aseigo: the easiest way to get it done would be to register it as a spec in blueprint and propose it for Paris
<kwwii> there would be need of figuring out how to improve the marketing of kubuntu...in several regards it is quite unclear where it is going
<mdz> aseigo: we would write up a summary / minutes rather than a spec
<Riddell> eln: so a spec to tidy up various kcontrol modules?
* aseigo ponders if there is any desktop interop topics on the table somewhere
<ervin> aseigo: didn't see one, but I might have missed it
<Sime> aseigo: there is a wine+kde SoC project running right now.
<eln> Riddell: yes - especially the ones that are important after first startup
<Riddell> eln: sounds good, go ahead and register it
<Riddell> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+addspec
<eln> Riddell: ok
<Riddell> eln: and make sure to add to the meeting
<aseigo> mdz: ok ... i believe i have a launchpad account. but i'm nearly innocent when it comes to doing this whole spec thing ... would it make more sense to have someone closer to the marketing group already established within ubuntu to file it?
<Riddell> dfaure: it doesn't take into account travel dates, that's done manually
<dfaure> :(
<mdz> aseigo: Riddell can assist with that
<eln> Riddell: to add to which meeting?
<Riddell> eln: after you create the spec you need to Add to Meeting and select Paris Summit
<eln> ah, ok
<eln> thanks
<Riddell> any questions?
<Riddell> excellent :)
<ervin> I suppose a discussion regarding release processes of kubuntu and kde is a no-no?
<mornfall> ...
<ervin> (how to make them match better, etc.)
<ervin> (I guess dfaure would have to be here though)
<Riddell> ervin: if you think there's something we can discuss sure
<mdz> aseigo: (btw, I was responding to your earlier inquiry about coordination with kde e.v.)
<sebas> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuMarketing#preview Here's a couple of very rough additions
<dfaure> ervin: => friday
<aseigo> mdz: yes =)
<ervin> Riddell: ok
<Riddell> dfaure: what day are you coming?
<dfaure> Friday
<dfaure> (well I'll be there Thursday evening)
<mornfall> so... how can i get an overview of "things i am subscribed to" from launchpad?
<highvoltage> is there a meeting atm? i can't see anything in fridge.
<Riddell> mornfall: https://launchpad.net/people/jr/+specs?role=subscriber
<Riddell> highvoltage: yes, it's super sekret
<ervin> dfaure: well, that's just an idea, you've a better inside view than me to know if it could be useful to discuss this
<highvoltage> Riddell: oooh
<mornfall> Riddell: hmm, gives bogus list
<dfaure> ervin: historically, kde has always "released when it's ready" rather than "when it's best for distribution xyz". That's just common sense, given how many distros there are...
<mornfall> aha
<mornfall> Riddell: sry, that's your list :] 
<mornfall> Riddell: correction: it gives no list
<Riddell> mornfall: are you subscribed to any?
<sebas> dfaure: Practically, KDE has never missed the planned release date, right?
<mornfall> Riddell: sure i am
<ervin> dfaure: sure, but that maybe would make sense to go toward a time based release schedule
<sebas> OTOH, Ubuntu has fixed release schedules, and Dapper is only 2 months "behind"
<dfaure> sebas: it has - so?
<sebas> dfaure: The point being that the difference isn't all that big
<Riddell> kwwii: tango-icon-theme is an old spec from the last meeting
<sebas> And that not being able to release is often a problem of manpower, which can be fixed if there are people with resources who really want it 'ready'.
<mornfall> launchpad officially hates me
<kwwii> Riddell: I noticed that the ubuntu-artwork peeps are talking about it too, that is why I asked
<_dfaure> sebas: sorry, missed your answer if any
<kwwii> Riddell: from what I have heard until now, there is very little interest in the community in using it though
<Riddell> kwwii: as I remember that's exactly the conclusion that came out of that spec
<Riddell> mornfall: you're not subscribed to anything according to https://launchpad.net/people/mornfall/+specs
<Riddell> mornfall: you need to click "Subscribe Yourself" and the Subscribe button after that for a spec
<mornfall> Riddell: yes, but look at eg. adept-usability: i am in subscriber list there
<mornfall> ow!
<mornfall> i have two distinct launchpad users
<mornfall> with same screen name? interesting :)
<Riddell> mornfall: ah, what fun.  somewhere you can ask for those accounts to be merged then
<Riddell> aseigo: does the meeting need to talk in private about stuff?
<Riddell> hmm, no aseigo 
<Riddell> ok, meeting over I guess then
<Riddell> aseigo, eln: let me know if you need help creating those specs
<Riddell> mornfall: keep poking that travel agent
<eln> Riddell: still struggling through it all
<Riddell> eln: where are you at?
<eln> just created a wiki page based on your kubuntu-usability template
<Riddell> I should say we'll also be having short lightning talks each morning, so if you have something cool to talk about (openusability as a random example) there's a space for that
<Riddell> as, aseigo_home 
<Sime> eln: usability feedback about the extra modules in systemsettings, is also welcome :)
<Riddell> eln: do you know mpt, the canonical usability guy?
<aseigo> sorry about that. a recent ubuntu kernel update has rendered my wifi unstable. huzzah.
<eln> Riddell: that sounds good
<eln> Riddell: no, don't know him. 
<mornfall> so i have 9 subscribed specs -- which is about it
<aseigo> (which means both my ethernet (sky2) and wifi are not rock solid. though wifi is only a couple times a week)
<mornfall> Riddell: if you can think of anything besides https://launchpad.net/people/me-mornfall/+specs?role=subscriber that i should look at, please hint :)
<mornfall> -1 (8 actually, kubuntu-katapult not paris-scheduled)
<eln> Sime: yeah, see how much we get accomplished :)
<Riddell> mornfall: looks like plenty
<aseigo> Riddell: after i got dumped but before i noticed ;) i asked about whether it makes any sense to look at institutional deployment readyness of kubuntu
<aseigo> Riddell: particularly the set up of things such as kiosk profiles and printing 
<mornfall> Riddell: that's ~2h a day, using default metric
* aseigo notes that christiano ronaldo of portugal is a bit of a prima dona (aka "whiney bitch")
<Riddell> eln: ah, mpt isn't coming to the conference
<eln> Riddell: i'll try to contact him beforehand. do you have an email address?
<Riddell> eln: https://launchpad.net/people/mpt 
<eln> great, thanks
<Riddell> aseigo: that sounds quite general
<ervin> Riddell: subscribing to 9 specs is too much?
<Riddell> aseigo: I've not checked but there may well be a spec for printing
<ervin> (wondering on your reply to mornfall)
<Riddell> aseigo: shipping with default kiosk profiles would be an intesting spec to have
<Riddell> ervin: not too many, not too little
<Riddell> take as many as you want
<mornfall> so what is the programme, besides spec-based BoFs?
<ervin> Riddell: of course, but since you said it average to 1h time slots... it would average to 9h, doesn't look like lot of time for a full week
<mornfall> ervin: how long are you staying? till the end?
<ervin> yep
<ogra> mornfall, falling dead in the evening after 12h speccing discussions and having a big party at the end :)
<aseigo> Riddell: ok. more specific: examine kiosk (kiosktool and default profiles available)
<Riddell> mornfall: that's about it, if you end up with unscheduled time I'm sure you can fill it with useful stuff easily enough
<Riddell> aseigo: cool, do it
<ervin> aseigo: ping me if you create this one, I'm interested
<aseigo> Riddell: i see there's a printing spec there, though it's specifically about sharing printers ... though i suppose that's the extent of issues right now there
* Spec prints
<Riddell> aseigo: current printing problems are mostly bugs and packaging issues, you don't need a spec for that
<aseigo> Riddell: a spec needs a url?
<mornfall> okey, that could be ninth (kiosk)
<aseigo> Riddell: or is that optional?
<aseigo> Spec: lol
<Riddell> aseigo: yes, link to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuMySpec
<Spec> a spec needs a url to the wiki
<Riddell> then create a page there using the SpecTemplate
<Spec> wikipage of that spec, that is
<Riddell> hopefully everyone has found https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuDeveloperSummitParis
<Riddell> which has the directions
<aseigo> Riddell: how much info needs to be on that url?
<Riddell> aseigo: create the page with the SpecTemplate and put your notes and thoughts at the bottom
<Riddell> aseigo: and we use that page to write the spec
<Riddell> you may also want to try out gobby/mateedit, we used those a lot at the last conference
<aseigo> Riddell: definition status ... braindump or??
<Riddell> braindump for now
<aseigo> ok
<ervin> aseigo, sebas: what about the kubuntu-marketing spec I see none of you subscribed there?
<Riddell> that lets the BoFicator know it needs a slot in the timetable for discussion
<aseigo> ervin: i haven't subscribed to any specs yet.
<sebas> Hm, I still need to grok that launchpad system :-)
<kwwii> sebas: you and me both
<ervin> ok, I'm subscribing there =)
<aseigo> to be honest, i find getting up to speed with this sprocess as a non-kubuntu-developer/canonical-employ to be rather non-trivial
<sebas> kwwii: :-)
<ervin> not sure I'll be that helpful there, but that's definitely a topic I'd like to work on
<ervin> aseigo: agreed
<dfaure> aseigo: hmm I didn't really have a problem with it...
<mornfall> so what about the room allocation fight someone promised at the start of the meeting? ;-)
<ervin> aseigo: non-trivial, but not that difficult either ;)
<Riddell> aseigo: that's why you asked for the meeting :)
<aseigo> yes, not difficult. just lots of details and customs to learn
<aseigo> Riddell: indeed
* ervin wants to share his room with dfaure for the whole week =)
<sebas> Hehehe
<mornfall> ervin: dfaure is staying whole week? :)
* sebas with Sime then :>
<ervin> mornfall: nope, that's the idea ;)
<dfaure> ervin: so, like, coming to the South for most days except thursday evening? :-)
<Sime> sebas: you going back on the saturday?
<mornfall> :] 
<ervin> dfaure: well, better stay at home then :p
<sebas> Sime: On friday already
<sebas> conference in germany
<Sime> sebas: oh
<ervin> dfaure: on the other hand you'd know how bad I play ping pong this way ;)
* mornfall pings ervin 
* ervin pongs mornfall 
<mornfall> see, not that bad :-)
<aseigo> Riddell: is this https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-intelligent-menu-entries looking to extend TryExec?
<mornfall> rtt ~7 seconds
<Riddell> aseigo: I don't know what TryExec does
<aseigo> Riddell: looks for the existence of an executable file with the given name / path
<aseigo> Riddell: doesn't actually run anything (e.g. to check for return values) or anything though
<Riddell> aseigo: it's more than that
<Riddell> room allocations I think are being done by New Claire, if you have preferences please contact Claire Newman <claire.newman@canonical.com>
<Riddell> I've already confirmed that el is a female for room allocation purposes
<ervin> ok, people, who want to share his room with me?
<el> Riddell, thanks 
<mornfall> ervin: i wouldn't mind i suppose :-)
<el> sebas, still there?
<mornfall> unless you have another preference
<sebas> el: Yes
<ervin> oh no! not a goth =)
<sebas> El wants to share a room with me? :-)
<mornfall> ervin: you could try aseigo in that case ;-)
<el> sebas, i'm very interested in the user profiling things from the marketing spec, for usability purposes
<sebas> Ow, bummer ;)
<kwwii> sebas: no baby, I want you to myself
* aseigo doesnt' care who he stays with
<el> sebas, but less in the other marketing things...
<sebas> kwwii: I can do both!
<Riddell> aseigo: you may want to say if you're a smoker or not
<mornfall> it must be the weather
<sebas> el: We should split that up as separate specs then
<el> sebas, does it make sense to split that ?
<Riddell> I believe they still allow smoking in France
<aseigo> Riddell: depends how cute she is? ;)
<sebas> el: Yes!
<el> hehe, sebas :)
<dfaure> Riddell: yes
<ervin> Riddell: depends on the hostel
<el> ok, i'll do that then, sebas 
<sebas> Cool :)
<el> now that i'm back at my computer and things go faster again
<sebas> Aye, Italy suck, he? ;)
<aseigo> Riddell: ist here some place on the wiki or something that we need to register our accomodation desires? i did communicate that i am a non-smoking vegetarian to the canonical people.. is that enough then?
<Riddell> aseigo: that's all good then
<sebas> It might make sense to split the marketing stuff up even more, promo / marketing as well, thoughy
<sebas> -y
<mornfall> aseigo: we match in that two aspects ;-) (well, maybe not counting hookah on my side)
<Riddell> I need to go out now, any last questions
<aseigo> Riddell: aaaah! is there also a network management spec?
<ervin> mornfall: you're vegetarian?
<mornfall> ervin: *blink* *blink* you didn't know?
<ervin> nope...
<mornfall> whatever :-)
<mornfall> i eat some fish :-)
<sebas> How does "eats only vegetarians" influence the room choice?
<aseigo> Riddell: e.g. "making network manager useful for kubuntu"?
<sebas> So I'd love to share a room with sansiego or mornfall :>
<Riddell> aseigo: hmm, I've not seen one
<aseigo> Riddell: i don't see it, but that may not mean much ;)
<mornfall> me? why me?
<aseigo> ok.. i'll add it then
<sebas> Strict diet, mornfall. (And kidding)
<aseigo> Riddell: that's as important as power management and more important than laptop buttons imho =)
<mornfall> sebas: ah :] 
<ervin> aseigo: did you add the kiosk one already?
<aseigo> ervin: yes
<mornfall> kiosk, remind me to register there... and maybe for NM
<mornfall> (network)
<Riddell> I'm off out now, if you make specs please subscribe me to them with "Subscribe Someone" or e-mail me
<mornfall> cya Riddell 
<Riddell> thanks everyone, see you in Paris
<ervin> aseigo: what's the name?
<mornfall> brb
<kwwii> see you guys and girls in a week
<aseigo> ervin: kubuntu-kiosk-profiles
<aseigo> kwwii: see ya
<aseigo> Riddell: au revoir
<ervin> aseigo: I can't find it in the sprint
<aseigo> ervin: https://launchpad.net/people/aseigo/+specs
<sebas> Riddell: Thanks, cu
<ervin> aseigo: did you add it to the uds-paris sprint? afaik you should or it won't be picked during the summit
<aseigo> dammit
<kwwii> launchpad is your friend
<ervin> aseigo: "add to meeting" I guess
<aseigo> ervin: yeah, just did that. 
* aseigo notes this is what he meant by "details and customs"
<aseigo> kwwii: a high maintenance one that makes me wait for web pages to load ;)
<kwwii> yes!
* ervin wonders if launchpad is slow to update... aseigo spec is still not listed in the paris sprint
<mornfall> back
<kwwii> it has made me learn that every linux company has something like yast
<mornfall> ervin: i think it needs to be registered
<ervin> mornfall: gni?
<kwwii> with that, I am gone...bbl
<mornfall> ervin: for UDS
<ervin> kwwii: see you
<mornfall> ervin: registered and possibly approved
<Riddell> ervin: I think it needs to be approve
<Riddell> approved
<ervin> ok, it explains
<Spec> Where's the list of specs for the paris sprint?
<aseigo> ervin: did you find it?
<aseigo> oh.. bah
<aseigo> what does "registered" mean?
<ervin> aseigo: it seems you've done everything you could on your side
<aseigo> ok =)
<Riddell> Spec: https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
<Spec> Woohoo, my spec is in the paris sprint :p
<ervin> aseigo: are you creating one regarding networking? there's the dialup one that you could find interesting
* mornfall pondery-ponders
* mornfall is not on dialup and doesn't intend to return to one :-)
<aseigo> ervin: not quite the same i think.. let me look again
<ervin> aseigo: sure, but complementary imho
<mornfall> so i can return to java now? :] 
<ervin> mornfall: sure, go to hell =)
<mornfall> or maybe studying
<mornfall> ervin: damn :p
<ervin> erm, java I meant
<mornfall> Theorem 4. big-step and small-step structured operational semantics are equivalent
<aseigo> ervin: i think there are some network-manager related items... and it really isn't kde specific per say.
<aseigo> ervin: i think i'm just going to subscribe to those
<aseigo> e.g. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/network-manager-with-wpa-supplicant-config
<ervin> aseigo: not listed in paris sprint iiuc
* sebas goes outside
<sebas> *virtual_hug*
<ervin> aseigo: or I've been confused?
<aseigo> ervin: no, you're right
* aseigo gets tired of this web interface clicking and just skips it.
<ervin> I'll take another look during the week, and see if I find a network related spec that pleases me
<ervin> currently I've found nothing that suits me on this topic
<ervin> ok, I'm done for now
<ervin> see you later people
<mornfall> laters
* mornfall moves on to denotational semantics
<tunki> Hi everybody
<tunki> Is this a good place for answers about xubuntu?
<Seveas> no
<Seveas> #xubuntu is
<tunki> ok thanks
<tunki> bye
<spacey> boeha
<cbx33> @schedule GMT
<cbx33> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 18:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu
<HedgeMage> I'm here, but I'll be in and out... Ihave to check on TT frequently
<spacey> @schedule CEST
<spacey> :<
<spacey> @schedule Amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<HedgeMage> @schedule seattle
* HedgeMage plays with the bot
<spacey> :)
<spacey> i'm ready
<spacey> can we start :P
<HedgeMage> Ubugtu doesn't love me :P
<spacey> after that i can go to sleep =P
<spacey> i played poker till 3 last night
<cbx33> heh
<spacey> so i'm still tired =)
<HedgeMage> lol
<RobinShepheard> hiya all
<spacey> great game though
* cbx33 enjoys poker every now and then
* RobinShepheard is very bad at poker
<spacey> yeah its just fun, with a drink and friends
<cbx33> spacey, yeh
<HedgeMage> I'm either really bad at poker, or my kid brother needs to spend time at a casino...  He wipes me out very quickly, but he does that to everyone :P
<spacey> also open(source)ed someones eyes today :)
<cbx33> nice
<RobinShepheard> sad though it sounds I like monopoly, few drinks and a few mates and it is a real good laugh
<HedgeMage> spacey: nice :)
<spacey> he will probably use an opensource now
<cbx33> cool
<spacey> instead of let it be custom build :p
<spacey> why have it custom build when its already there in better form :)
<cbx33> shall we begin?
<spacey> also that cost saving of 1100 euro was quite convicing :)
<spacey> yeah sure
<HedgeMage> oh yeah, I have at least two teachers for us... but one doesn't have a 'net connection.  She lives close to my mom, though, so I think I'm going to have to buy dad a spindle of CDs and make him burn her stuff for me :)
<pygi> Ok, welcome everyone to the cookbook meeting :)
<spacey> if pygi is ready
<pygi> be shhhhhhhhhhh :)
<pygi> First of all I would like to congratulate you all, and say my personal thanks to all of you who contributed to the cookbook we made for Dapper
<spacey> are we happy with the result?
<pygi> Let's make the cookbook even more rocking for Edgy ;)
<cbx33> indeed
<pygi> Results are here, and in the given deadline, they are more then good
<spacey> so what are the plans =)
<cbx33> well it's gonna be printed this time :D
<RobinShepheard> sweet
<pygi> Ok, I hope all of you have given some thoughts about how the edgy cookbook should look like
<pygi> Lemme first say my ideas, and then all of you (one by one, in a civilised matter) can express your own ideas
<pygi> after ideas are out, we can discuss
<cbx33> shall we start alphabetically?
<cbx33> :p
<pygi> cbx33, perhaps, me first tho :P
<cbx33> of course
<pygi> Ok, so let's go with things I think should happen  for Edgy cookbook:
<pygi> 1. Contributors - we should have set of people in which we can believe they will deliver
<spacey> your building up the tension
<pygi> 2. Chapters - there will be several chapters, divided in articles
<pygi> 3. Publishing - The book will be published by a publisher, and perhaps freely available on web (my duty to take care of that stuff)
<pygi> 4. Define colaboration method - Until the thing with publisher is totally setup, access to the repository where we'll store the stuff should be limited to writers
<sivang> which meeting is on now?
<pygi> 5. If any concerns arise in whatever sense, please inform me and Hedge, and we'll decide together with you on further action
<LaserJock> sivang: edubuntu cookbook
<pygi> Ok, I have more ideas of content nature, but let's leave it for later
<pygi> now, who wanna talk? :)
<spacey> about 3.: i think freely available on the web is a must, not a perhaps
<pygi> spacey, discussion later :P
<spacey> hmm ok
<spacey> i want pictures in
<spacey> is that a valid point?
<pygi> Anyone interested in talking? :)
<sivang> LaserJock: thanks
<pygi> spacey, indeed, screenshoots
<RobinShepheard> I would suggest a reasonable number of screenshots, as it really does make it easier for people who are not sure
<spacey> yes and kids working behind a thinclient
<spacey> real life pictures as well
<spacey> just to make it more playful
<cbx33> Can I ask, without creating political problems, why were there 2 cookbooks last time?
<RobinShepheard> I would suggest a basic trouble shooting suggestions section as well
<spacey> i guess thats mostly my fault :p
<pygi> cbx33, There was one which was never finished started long time ago 
<spacey> because the first one wasn't really taking off
<cbx33> I was confused because the first one had a lot more "written" content
<spacey> yes and the content didn't make much sense
<pygi> Anyone else wanna speak out what's on his/her mind? :)
<LaserJock> I might be bold and suggest a different name
<cbx33> if this is going to be printed we need to make sure this is the one and only cookbook :p
<pygi> cbx33, it will be
<pygi> LaserJock, shoot
<cbx33> go on LaserJock 
* HedgeMage raises her hand
<pygi> HedgeMage, sec, after Laser ;)
<LaserJock> Either use "Edubuntu Cookbook" if it is a cookbook style doc (which it doesn't quite seem that way
<LaserJock> or something else
<spacey> Edubuntu Guide? :P to be orginal
<pygi> what's wrong with "How to Cook Edubuntu?" :)
<LaserJock> I was going to say that but it is prety over used
<pygi> ok, so all of you: Name suggestions?
<spacey> Edubuntu Compass
<cbx33> Using Edubuntu
<HedgeMage> "The Care and Keeping of Efts" :P
<cbx33> Edubuntu in the wild
<HedgeMage> (so we can totally mislead and confuse everyone)
<RobinShepheard> Edubuntu made easy
<spacey> Edubuntu for dummies
<LaserJock> that's a good one RobinShepheard 
<spacey> =P
* RobinShepheard blushes awwww shucks
<RobinShepheard> cheers
<pygi> Edubuntu behind myst ;)
<cbx33> Edubuntu for mere mortals :p
<RobinShepheard> edubuntu for people
<cbx33> Edubuntu IRL
<pygi> Edubuntu Eft ;)
<LaserJock> maybe it would be good to as on the ML or do an LP poll
<pygi> Anyway, we'll vote for that later
* HedgeMage nods
<cbx33> nice idea LaserJock 
<pygi> indeed LaserJock 
<pygi> HedgeMage, your wording? :)
<HedgeMage> hrm?
<LaserJock> pygi: are your items open for discussion yet? :-0
<pygi> you raised hand above, so speak :)
<LaserJock> s/:-0/:-)/
<HedgeMage> ahh
<pygi> LaserJock, wait ;)
<HedgeMage> pygi: "Your wording" to a native english speaker usually means I'm supposed to change someone's phrasing
* HedgeMage was confused
<cbx33> heh me too HedgeMage 
<spacey> ...
<HedgeMage> Anyhow, a couple of things... first, I noticed as we pieced together the Dapper cookbook, we weren't very consistent with style (What's an h1, h2, how we split chapters, etc) we need to work on consistency in those areas.
<cbx33> definitely HedgeMage 
<spacey> HedgeMage: thats also related to the document format
<spacey> wiki is not really a good place
<cbx33> it may be an idea to have someone in charge of formatting
* HedgeMage nods
<spacey> you don't make "books" in a wiki
<spacey> layout is helpless
<cbx33> pygi, are you suggesting svn?
<HedgeMage> spacey: tell me about it, drove me bonkers :)
<cbx33> and docbook?
<RobinShepheard> html is not a lot better though
<spacey> other documentation uses docbook right?
<spacey> never used that
<spacey> but its some form of xml right?
<cbx33> docbook is easy enough
<cbx33> yeh
<pygi> cbx33, perhaps, I think the publishers just ask for simple OpenOffice files and they take care of rest
<LaserJock> pygi: do you have a publisher
<spacey> i think we should use something like docbook then
<spacey> you can convert it to anything right?
<LaserJock> kinda
<cbx33> we can turn it into pdf easy enough
<spacey> and publishers understand pdf :p
<pygi> LaserJock, not yet actually, I think we need chapters layout to propose to publisher
<LaserJock> pygi: I really think you should consider lulu.com
<HedgeMage> pygi: depends on the publisher.  We may be best off using TeX/LaTeX so it can be easily styled
* cbx33 too
<spacey> latex is fine with me too
<pygi> LaserJock, we'll print current cookbook on Lulu.com indeed
<cbx33> what about the new one
<pygi> latex fine here as well, but do all know it?
<LaserJock> pygi: for edgy too
<cbx33> I don;t
<spacey> pygi: i don't really know, but it should be easy :)
<RobinShepheard> I don't know latex but I can learn
<HedgeMage> cbx33: Lyx is a great WYSIWYM editor
* LaserJock rasies his hand for a sec
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: ^^^
<pygi> LaserJock, shoot
* HedgeMage calls on LaserJock even though she's not running the meeting
<HedgeMage> :P
<LaserJock> the new help.ubuntu.com wiki (where the cookbooks are going) will have a wiki -> docbook converter
<cbx33> LaserJock, is it any good?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> there is a SoC project
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: I'm going to cry if I end up trying to work on a document this big in wiki speak again.
<LaserJock> that has already produced some awesome stuff
<spacey> i really don't want to work in wiki
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: no, I mean for getting things started, small sections, etc
<cbx33> me either
<cbx33> svn
<LaserJock> then once you get it into docbook it is good to go
<LaserJock> for people who want to contribute without having to learn docbook
<spacey> how is docbook on layout and stuff?
* HedgeMage votes for svn, or if folks really want something web-based, the "book" module on drupal
<cbx33> I suppose we should be pushing bzr
<spacey> HedgeMage: thats good
<LaserJock> bzr! ;-)
<pygi> cbx33, entire doc team uses SVN
<pygi> ok, so we don't want publisher, and we'll print on Lulu or?
<HedgeMage> I'm not familiar with Docbook, but I know that lyx is great for editing LaTeX in a WYSIWYG/WYSIWYM manner, without having to learn the markup
<HedgeMage> pygi: we're what, four months out from edgy?
<spacey> latex+svn sounds fine with me :P
<spacey> does that work with the drupal thingy as well :p
<pygi> HedgeMage, indeed
<cbx33> latex+svn is cool with me
<LaserJock> pygi: to be honest I think you would have a very difficult time getting a publisher for this, and even harder time making it open source
<cbx33> indeed
<HedgeMage> pygi: I don't know if you've dealt with publishers much before, but that's one insane crunch to try to propose a book in... we may be stuck with lulu or something similar for edgy and look into a "real" publisher for edgy+1
<RobinShepheard> you could try oreilly
<cbx33> lulu is the way to go
<spacey> i think the book should be a bit more mature before it should be published
<cbx33> HedgeMage, I agree
<spacey> lulu is quite nice
<LaserJock> lulu.com is quite awesome, it's cheaper than a publisher
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: not true, some tech-oriented publishers, such as O'Reilly, are pretty open about publishing on the web along with the book release.
<spacey> from what i have seen
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: but usually not with a good license
<HedgeMage> it's the time crunch that makes me think going to a traditional publisher is nuts
<LaserJock> I could be wrong, but the Offical Ubuntu Book was a struggle to get done in GFDL
<cbx33> HedgeMage, yeh
<spacey> i think we can use lulu for a while, and for the next enterprise release a real book :)
<cbx33> sounds good
<LaserJock> do you really want a real book?
<pygi> everyone agrees?
<LaserJock> I would really hesitate to do that
<spacey> pygi: on what?
<cbx33> possibly if we make edgy cookbook good enough, then the changes from edgy to +1 won't be that great
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: way-back-when I was talking to a publisher about "Help! The Computer Ate My Classroom!" they were going to let me do a Creative commons attribution share-alike as long as I released on the web four weeks after the book came out
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: oh, that's not bad at all
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: nope, they originally wanted 12 weeks but I talked them down :)
<LaserJock> I think using a publisher would make the cost a lot higher
<pygi> spacey, on printing on Lulu for edgy+1
<HedgeMage> oh, and the attribution line had to include the publisher's name as well as mine
<LaserJock> and I think it would make it more difficult to keep current
<spacey> i think only enterprise releases are interesting to "publish"
<HedgeMage> let's focus on edgy right now, and look at edgy +1 in another meeting, within the next week or two
<spacey> and that would be the next one
<spacey> the book will be much more mature then
<spacey> ofcourse its a bit of a longterm vision
<cbx33> indeed
<cbx33> but never hurts to ahev a long term vision
<LaserJock> ok, latex vs. docbook?
<HedgeMage> LaTeX +1
<cbx33> I'm ok with which ever
<pygi> LaTeX +1
<LaserJock> bzr vs. svn vs. drupal ?
<cbx33> I learnt docbook enough to do ESA
<kbrooks> svn +1
<cbx33> svn +1
<pygi> svn +1
<spacey> latex+1, bzr&svn +1
<kbrooks> decentralisation is overkill
<LaserJock> can latex be converted to docbook?
<HedgeMage> svn +1... drupal +.5 (ie my second choice)
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: yep, very easily
<cbx33> :D
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: there are filters out there.
<LaserJock> can latex be converted to HTML?
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: latex can be converted to ANYTHING
<spacey> i think it can be converted to many things
<cbx33> indeed it can
<cbx33> so I think we're agreed on that
<LaserJock> well, I know that, I'm just wondering how much of a pain it is going to be
<LaserJock> I'm -1 on LaTeX
<LaserJock> but I don't count ;-)
<pygi> LaserJock, bleh, why is that? :-/
<Spec> I think the Twisted group made a python module to translate latex into html
<pygi> (why don't you count)
<pygi> everyone counts
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: LaTeX was designed for publishing, so it's got many well-supporte LaTeX-to-whatever filters.
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: yes, but what is your target media
<pygi> LaserJock, do you planm on contributing to Cookbook? :)
<LaserJock> probably not
<pygi> eh :(
<LaserJock> I'd love to but I've already got a ton of Edgy projects
* kbrooks raises his hand
* cbx33 flicks LaserJock's ears
<kbrooks> two questions
<LaserJock> I wouldn't mind helping with review and stuff
<kbrooks> 1. what is this edgy cookbook?
<kbrooks> 2. what meeting is this?/
<spacey> kbrooks: an  "Edubuntu Guide"
<cbx33> edubuntu-cookbook
<LaserJock> 1. and Edubuntu guide 2. edubuntu cookbook meeting
<kbrooks> ok
<pygi> ok, so next :)
<HedgeMage> kbrooks: a guide for people with little or no linux or admin experience to set up and run Edubuntu (Ubuntu's education offshoot)
<LaserJock> I think docbook would be a more appropriate format for including in Edubuntu
<pygi> LaserJock, you wanted to discuss my points? :)
<pygi> LaserJock, that I agree, but we'll convert it anyway
<kbrooks> may i comment?
<HedgeMage> kbrooks: go for it :)
<LaserJock> but why go through the hassle of converting when docbook is already easy to use?
<LaserJock> it is *made* for this kind of stuff
<pygi> LaserJock, indeed, you are right
<kbrooks> j,,,
<kbrooks> hmmm
<kbrooks> um
<pygi> LaserJock,  convince others, I am fine with whatever we go with
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: it could go either way, really... I kind of expect the Latex people to work in latex and convert to docbook or the docbook people to work in that and convert to latex... at least if everyone is as set in their ways as I
<cbx33> sure LaserJock 
<cbx33> docbook is good with me
<spacey> i don't really care, i have no significant experience with both
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: yeah, I suppose
<RobinShepheard> I am the same as spacey, I don't know either so it is much of a muchness for me for what it is worth
<LaserJock> but it should end up as docbook in the end so however it gets there is up to you guys I guess :-)
<HedgeMage> most print publishers I've worked with (that's 2 of 2, hardly a scientific sample) favor LaTeX over docbook, though, so that might be worth considering, just to avoid excessive cleaning up for print.
<spacey> docbook has the advantage that the other doc guys use it as well
* HedgeMage listens
<cbx33> docbook ++
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: my point is that I don't think it should *ever* reach a print publisher (other than maybe lulu.com)
<LaserJock> but that is something you guys need to decide
<LaserJock> what is your target media?
<cbx33> I think it all depends on how comprehensive it is
<RobinShepheard> Daft question, how long from hetting to a print publisher to release date????
<pygi> LaserJock, yes, indeed, only lulu.com for printing
<RobinShepheard> *getting
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: I must have missed that in the scrollback.  I'll bug you about it later since I want to hear your reasoning, but don't want to make the whole chan rehash it.
<LaserJock> RobinShepheard: I'd guess close to a year
<RobinShepheard> so by the time it is printed it is 2 versions of edubuntu out of date
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: nope, nothing like that IME
<HedgeMage> (mind you, my experience is limited)
<LaserJock> I'm pretty sure that's what it took for the Ubuntu book
<RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: go on
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: wait a sec, are we talking from *approaching* a publisher, or from submitting a final draft?
* HedgeMage is confused.
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: approaching a publisher
<LaserJock> if we wanted to start today, how long would it take to get a product out?
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: ahh, then I'd agree with you... sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about final submission to print
<kbrooks> STOP
<kbrooks> WAIT
<kbrooks> FREEZE
<RobinShepheard> so the print option is a bit of a moot point at the moment don't you think
* cbx33 tries to calm down kbrooks 
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: that's why I suggested tabling it for a later meeting
<kbrooks> can't the edubuntu book be ...
<kbrooks> hmmm
* HedgeMage freezes kbrooks 
<HedgeMage> ;)
<LaserJock> I think it is, and so I think that also makes a difference as to latex vs. docbook
<kbrooks> I recommend that it be all tabled (the whole "publish as book" thing)
<LaserJock> if we are using LaTeX because that is what is use in publishing
<Riddell> docbook is always better than latex
<kbrooks> it is unnecessary to discuss this
<LaserJock> look, I'm not against LaTeX (I'm a Chemisty, I write everything in latex) but I do think that because docbook was designed for this type of writing
<RobinShepheard> given the indecision about the format, would it not be better to discuss other things like content and come back to the format later
<kbrooks> IMO, this is out of scope
<LaserJock> and it is what is used by yelp
<kbrooks> RobinShepheard: agreed
<LaserJock> probably, it really doesn't matter, we have svn for sure :-)
<RobinShepheard> lolo
<RobinShepheard> doh lol
<cbx33> lolo or lulu
<RobinShepheard> don't start that again cbx33 ;)
<pygi> Ok, so the content
<pygi> anyone has suggestions/ideas?
<cbx33> well
<cbx33> sorry
* cbx33 raises his hand
<LaserJock> pygi: fill out what you have, make it better
<pygi> oki, cbx33 shoot
<LaserJock> doh, /me forgot to raise his hand
<cbx33> I think we have to decide how comprehensive we're going to make it
<cbx33> what are we including
* RobinShepheard raises hand
<cbx33> that kind of thing
<pygi> LaserJock, no worries :0
<pygi> cbx33, I would say very comprehensive
* HedgeMage raises her hand
<cbx33> I've finished
<LaserJock> quick RobinShepheard, ask your question before more hands go up :-)
<RobinShepheard> ok, cheers. I would suggest a starting section on install with screen pics, and larger centre section with day to day running and the apps
<RobinShepheard> and a last section with trouble shooting section in
<pygi> RobinShepheard, we have that already ;) (the first suggestion)
<spacey> pygi: can i comment on your points now?
<pygi> spacey, shoot
<spacey> about 3.: i think freely available on the web is a must, not a perhaps
* RobinShepheard seconds spacey
<spacey> if anyone remembers his orginal points
<pygi> spacey, agreed
<spacey> quite a while back
<spacey> maybe repast them
<LaserJock> spacey: and should be open source as well :-)
<spacey> LaserJock: yep
<LaserJock> what license will it have? :-)
<lucasvo> what's on ?
<spacey> some CC i guess
<RobinShepheard> lucasvo: edubuntu cookbook
<LaserJock> spacey: or perhaps GFDL
<spacey> thats also a possibility yes
<LaserJock> GFDL has been recently (sort of) cleared as free by Debian
<pygi> Okay, I am very sorry, but I gotta run now
<spacey> at least it should be free
<lucasvo> didn't we already discuss the licensing of cookbook?
<pygi> Hedgemage is gonna take all over now, and I'll read on logs ;)
<HedgeMage> np pygi 
<spacey> wasnt it suppose to be CC BY SA?
<LaserJock> CC isn't considered free by Debian, I dont' think
<spacey> i recall something like that
<RobinShepheard> see you later pygi
<lucasvo> LaserJock: depends on which one, afaik
<pygi> spacey, the licence is on wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu
<pygi> laters
<cbx33> bye pygi 
<LaserJock> CC-SA and GFDL are common ones
<HedgeMage> I'd say stick with the CC license... it's workable and we need consistency.
<lucasvo> LaserJock: I think BY would be good
<spacey> pygi: that page is gone
<lucasvo> HedgeMage: and it is undrestandable
<spacey> :<
<HedgeMage> Authors, in general, are less likely to contribute if they aren't certain the license will stay as it is.
<LaserJock> lucasvo: well, CC-SA implies BY but yeah
<LaserJock> to me anyway
<lucasvo> LaserJock: oh, I didn't know that
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: so what is the license currently? CC-BY-SA?
<HedgeMage> yes, I believe so
<RobinShepheard> where can I find a copy of that??
<LaserJock> oh,  then definately go with that
<spacey> i have to leave as well
<spacey> unfortunately
<cbx33> see ya spacey 
<lucasvo> RobinShepheard: on creativecommons.org
<RobinShepheard> see you later sp
<spacey> someone will write up something about the meeting and post to list? :)
<RobinShepheard> see you later spacey
<RobinShepheard> cheers lucasvo
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: yes, just checked... see https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters
<HedgeMage> spacey: if no one else volunteers, I will
<spacey> kk:)
<spacey> gn
<RobinShepheard> I would be happy to contribute under the current license
<HedgeMage> Okay, so far we've established that we're going to collaborate via SVN, using either docbook or LaTeX, working under a CC-BY-SA license, and that Edgy will be published via lulu... did I miss anything?
<HedgeMage> I'll take that as a "no"
<lucasvo> grr
<lucasvo> why not bzr?
<HedgeMage> lucasvo: because only one person voted for it, IIRC
<lucasvo> Anybody who wants to work for Ubuntu should be carefull in voting against bzr ;)
<HedgeMage> lol :)
<lucasvo> I mean for canonical
<HedgeMage> I knew what you meant
<HedgeMage> Anyhow, still on the table:
<lucasvo> I think bzr is superior to svn because it is not serverbased. which makes it as redundant as the internet.
<HedgeMage> Content, organization, timeline, and setting our next meeting
<lucasvo> HedgeMage: Don't forget the layout design
<HedgeMage> lucasvo: both docbook and LaTeX lend themselves to being styled after the fact, so I think we'll table that for now
<HedgeMage> lucasvo: dinner before dessert as my mom used to say
<lucasvo> ok
<LaserJock> lucasvo: svn works very well for this sort of thing
<lucasvo> HedgeMage: but one should prepare the desert before dinner otherwise one have to make it after the diner which will delay the meal
<cbx33> I'm out guys
<cbx33> tired 
<cbx33> sleepy
<RobinShepheard> later cbx33
<HedgeMage> As for content, I'd like to come up with a draft outline at this meeting and post it to the mailing list for review.
<lucasvo> LaserJock: of course. the only bad thing about svn is, there is no LP support at all
<HedgeMage> cbx33: see you later... pm me your email addy please in case I don't have it so I can get you that screenie ASAP
<LaserJock> lucasvo: why do you need LP support?
<RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: would it be worth providing a brief overview of networking in general, after all some teachers may no very little about computer networks
<lucasvo> LaserJock: because it's the dev. plattform for ubuntu?
<lucasvo> RobinShepheard: yes I think so
<lucasvo> (especially because I would probably profit as well)
<lucasvo> RobinShepheard: explain how lan works
<HedgeMage> guys, let's focus on content okay? we can revisit managing the thing at the end of our meeting if there's time.
<lucasvo> and maybe even how to set up the hardware
<lucasvo> how to use a crimptool
<lucasvo> etc.
<LaserJock> lucasvo: this is documentation, and svn is still a good tool
<RobinShepheard> it is just the current one just says about thin clients and that is about it
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: content, please.
<HedgeMage> I'd reccommend that we expand the apps overview to include examples of in-classroom use
* RobinShepheard seconds that  idea
<RobinShepheard> especially keduca
<RobinShepheard>  a real life saver potentially
* HedgeMage nods
<HedgeMage> any more suggestions for additional content?  or content that should be scrubbed?
<RobinShepheard> just the intro to networking
<HedgeMage> got it on the list.
<RobinShepheard> cheers
<HedgeMage> okay, anything else regarding content, or are we ready to head on to organization?
<HedgeMage> okay, organization then...
<HedgeMage> I propose that the LTSP and standalone parts each be made into "Pre-Install" "Installation" and "Post-Install" sections, and that the post-install sections absorb stuff like the printing chapter from "shiny things"
<HedgeMage> I think that it will add clarity, and keep users of one type of set-up from being confused by settings that only effect the other.
<HedgeMage> The down side is that we may end up dublicating some work between the two post-install sections.... I do expect any duplication to be minimal
<HedgeMage> thoughts?
<RobinShepheard> I think that makes a lot of sense, then you can make sure of things like depndancies and the like
* HedgeMage nods
<HedgeMage> anybody else? or any other suggestions?
<RobinShepheard> also people will be able to see results easier
<RobinShepheard> I still reckon you should finish with a brief trouble shooting section
<RobinShepheard> if it doesn't work check this sort of thing
<HedgeMage> hmmm... might it work better to have a "troubleshooting" bit at the end of each chapter that directly addresses things done in that chapter?
<RobinShepheard> yeah, that would deffinately make more sense
<RobinShepheard> it would definately make it easier to find the troubleshooting bits for the individual app
<HedgeMage> that's what I was thinking
<RobinShepheard> I bow down to your greater wisdom
<HedgeMage> plus, it would reduce frustration, I think, because it'll take less momentum away from the process if the help is right there.
<HedgeMage> :) the troubleshooting was your idea, don't give me all the credit :D
<HedgeMage> Okay, anything else for organization?
<RobinShepheard> not from me
<HedgeMage> I think we're all that's left :/
<HedgeMage> oh, well
<RobinShepheard> looks like it
<HedgeMage> last bit: time, date, and agenda for our next meeting.
<RobinShepheard> most haven't left though
<RobinShepheard> only real day I can't do is first wednesday of the month
<RobinShepheard> it is the local linux user group :)
<HedgeMage> I'd like to see us get together early next week, as we desperately need to figure out the docbook/latex question, and I'd like to get a vote on the content/organization suggestions made today
<RobinShepheard> monday is good for me
<HedgeMage> 20:00 UTC next Tuesday sound good?  (Expecting it to last approx 30-40 minutes)
<RobinShepheard> well any day is good for me next week. yeah sounds fine
<HedgeMage> hmmm let me check, I think there's already a meeting monday
<RobinShepheard> developer summit next monday
<RobinShepheard> will that be a problem??
<RobinShepheard> ubuntu one that is
<HedgeMage> well, that's only for people lucky enough to be in Paris :P
<HedgeMage> which, admittedly, includes some of ours
<RobinShepheard> not me unforunately
<HedgeMage> what about this week thursday, 20:00 UTC... that way we don't conflict with Paris or with various other meetings on the Fridge
<HedgeMage> it's soon, but if I can get this write-up done ASAP I can give everyone some time to prep and we should be good for enough people to make a decision
<RobinShepheard> ok fine by me
<HedgeMage> cool
<HedgeMage> thursday at 20:00 UTC then, expecting 30-40 minutes in length
<RobinShepheard> I wont have a lot to offer about formats or svn vs bzr though as I have never used any of them
<HedgeMage> svn is easy, I've not yet tried bzr.
<RobinShepheard> same place for the meeting??
<HedgeMage> One of the reasons I favored LaTeX over Docbook is that I don't know of an easy WYSIWYG editor for docbook, but I do know of one for LaTeX
<HedgeMage> yep, same place.
<HedgeMage> I'm headed back to #edubuntu now
* HedgeMage waves
* RobinShepheard waves back
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-13
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 14 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 13:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu
<robitaille> @topic
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<mdz> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00: Technical Board
<Keybuk> nothing for today
<mdz> looks like it's free
<Keybuk> though where's the CC in that?
<mdz> must have already happened?
<Keybuk> oh, must have already happened
<ogra> dropped for today
<ogra> sbdfl is travelling, colin on vacation
<mdz> so, impromptu techboard meeting to discuss topics for Paris
<ogra> +a
<Keybuk> there's still 27 not yet approved or declined, shall we look at those first>?
<mdz> Keybuk: yes, I didn't have a chance on monday as planned due to being unable to stand up
<mdz> unfortunately it looks like the trivial spec tracker changes I asked for didn't make it in, so this is still a pain
<Keybuk> yeah, I was about to say ... I swear they promised that they would be hyperlinks this week
<mdz> basically what I've been doing is, for each spec in the list, searching around to find the spec page for it
* highvoltage listens in
<mdz> I check to see if anyone associated with the spec is actually attending the conference
<mdz> or if it's something we ought to talk about anyway
* ogra subscribed to all edubuntu specs ... in case you need an overview of them
<Spec> oh god, a meeting of specs.
<mdz> ogra: did you submit them all for paris last week?
<ogra> yeps
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/apparmor
<mdz> Spec: you might want to leave the channel for a bit ;-)
<ogra> lol
<Spec> it's interesting though, i got a spec submitted/approved already :p
<Keybuk> Holy bad-choice-of-nickname, Spec-man!
<mdz> Keybuk: I fear, though, that sabdfl was going over that list as well, and not using the same approach
<mdz> so there may be stuff approved where there won't be anyone to talk about it
<mdz> s/approved/accepted/
<Keybuk> at one point I was convinced that there was automatic processing going on
<Keybuk> I assigned a spec to the meeting and it was *instantly* approved
<mdz> yeah, I think that was him.  unfortunately there's no mail notification either
* mdz scribbles on his spec tracker notes some more
<mdz> there are 126 accepted and I know I didn't do more than half of that
<Keybuk> I did add a few specs to the meeting which nobody else had
<Keybuk> but only where I knew they were things other people wanted to talk about
<Keybuk> e.g. libata-for-all
<Keybuk> that was the one, in fact, that went straight to accepted without collecting 200$
<mdz> we also need to reset the status for specs which are being reproposed from an earlier cycle
<mdz> I've been doing that where I see it
<mdz> it looks like early-userspace was just edited and reproposed, though it's a different spec
<mdz> how confusing
<mdz> hmm, someone helpfully added my old grub2 spec to paris, which I had completely forgotten I'd entered
<Keybuk> I'd love an activity log for specs too
<Keybuk> can you add that to your scribbles? :)
<mdz> er, ubuntu-meta-from-bzr was proposed and accepted when it's already implemented
<mdz> (done)
<Keybuk> yes, that's because Colin had a few hours
<Keybuk> fix-mom is likely to be implemented before
<mdz> packetcd is owned by someone who isn't coming
<Keybuk> kooky
<mdz> but tollef is subscribed, ok
<lucasvo> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00: Technical Board
<mdz> I'm going to ask that the spec tracker make this a hard constraint
<Keybuk> someone attending must be attached or subscribed to the spec?
<mdz> that there must be someone subscribed or assigned who is registered to attend the meeting
<Keybuk> apparmor => not attending
<Keybuk> ethical-info => not attending
<mdz> go ahead and decline them
<Keybuk> gnome-bling-manager => not attending
<Keybuk> integrated-cdemu => not attending
<Keybuk> jhbuild->dependencies => not attending
<mdz> adept-usability is one I asked Riddell to narrow the scope on before accepting it, but someone else accepted it anyway
<Keybuk> serverland => not attending
<Keybuk> server-config-wizard => not attending
<Keybuk> synaptic-packages-descriptions-localisation => not attending (mvo isn't subscribed either)
<mdz> Keybuk: who registered it?
<Keybuk> arch-change-i386-to-i686 => not attending (also we decided not to do this yet)
<mdz> I think mvo may actually be interested in it
<Keybuk> mdz: "tenshu"
<mdz> mvo: confirm or deny?
<mvo> Keybuk: I am interessted in this, just it should be merged with apt-ddtp, no?
<Keybuk> ok, I'll mark it superceded by that spec
<mdz> Keybuk: I'm also setting the assignee to be the registrant where registrant is null
<mdz> since that's sort of the theme for edgy, and assignee shows up in the table while registrant doesn't
<Keybuk> ubuntu-directory-server => not attending
<mvo> Keybuk: is it on the paris spec table? I seem to be unable to find it
<Keybuk> mvo: it was in the proposed list
<Keybuk> hmm, usb-adsl-modems ... nobody's attending; decline, or accept anyway -- sfflaw was interested in that kind of thing?
<mvo> Keybuk: what is the url for that list?
<Keybuk> mvo: -EPERM for you I'm afraid :-/
<Keybuk> (quite why you need permission to *read* it, I've no idea, but hey)
<Keybuk> xchat-gnome-default => not attending
<mvo> Keybuk: ok, thanks. I will be around in case something more comes up for me
<mdz> mvo: if apt-ddtp covers the same stuff, the other one should be superseded by it
<mvo> mdz: it does, it even links to ddtp.debian.net :) 
<mdz> Keybuk: can you mark it superseded/
<Keybuk> mdz: done
<Keybuk> Riddell: ping
* Keybuk assigns Riddell the KDE specs he's subscribed to
<Keybuk> (where there wasn't an assignee and the assignee isn't coming)
<Keybuk> uh, registrant isn't coming
<mdz> edgy-toolchain-roadmap needs breaking down, mailed doko
<Keybuk> I'm buggered if I can find "rsync/zsync based synchronization tool for deb packages"
* mvo thinks we totally need it
<Keybuk> "succinct"
<Keybuk> how, utterly, errr succint of it
* Keybuk hugs jubany and psql
<mdz> some of these are doomed to be split up during the meeting
<Keybuk> mvo: you like the succinct spec?
<Keybuk> hmm, it's SoC 2006 allegedly, is that right?
<mvo> Keybuk: yes, its a SoC project now, I think it is cool and doable
<Keybuk> mvo: is there any point discussing it at UFK then?
<Keybuk> given the author isn't coming
<mvo> Keybuk: probably not, no - only if paul is coming 
<Keybuk> "paul" ?
<mvo> paul sladen
<Keybuk> he's listed as unlikely
<mvo> he seems to have some more generic plans for all of it I would be interessted to talk to him
<mvo> ok
<mvo> I'll ask him
<mvo> but without sladen, there is little point in scheduling the spec
<mvo> and even with him there is no need to schedule more than a single session I guess
<Keybuk> launchpad_prod=> select name from specification where title like 'Launchpad Account%';
<Keybuk>         name
<Keybuk> ---------------------
<Keybuk>  launchpad-login-app
<Keybuk> (1 row)
* Keybuk cackles, evily
<mdz> Keybuk: I need to get me one of those
<Keybuk> mdz: login to drescher, become lp_archive ... psql -h jubany -U ro launchpad_prod
* mdz invokes lp admin privileges to fix typos in spec shortnames
<mdz> Keybuk: oh, thanks
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/laptop-video-output-control
<Keybuk> ^ registrant is not coming ... sivang is subscribed
<Keybuk> accept or decline?
<Mithrandir> that's nontrivial to implement anyway. Some of it can be done using randr, but most can't.
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> nothing remaining in proposed
<mdz> I'm almost finished my pass over the accepted stuff,
<mdz> tidying it up
<mdz> Keybuk: you subscribed to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/reboot-halt-notification, but I'm not entirely clear what it's about
<mdz> is it notifying desktop users of reboots from non-desktop contexts?
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, afaik it's a graphical "wall"
<mdz> *shrug*
<Keybuk> I did subscribe to things on a "if they're on the list, I may want to listen in" basis
<mdz> Keybuk: the registrant isn't going to be there
<Keybuk> the registrant isn't coming
<Keybuk> => declined
<ogra> perople ask a lot about that, i never understood why (how can i send something like the termonals shutdown message to all desktops)
<ogra> grmbl ... i need a typing course 
<Keybuk> mdz: what's the status on "needs further discussion" specs?
<Keybuk> ie. java-roadmap where it has been explicitly unchecked
<Keybuk> uh, "does not need further discussion"
<Keybuk> is there any point having those for the meeting?
<mdz> where is the 'informational' designation hiding these days?
<Keybuk> the big (i)
<mdz> I mean where is it  changed
<Keybuk> and/or "Edit Details"
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> the "needs further discussion" flag should probably be cleared globally for paris
<Keybuk> all specs should have an assignee, yes?
<mdz> it's meant to be per-meeting state but isn't
<Keybuk> "set globally", you mean?
<mdz> Keybuk: I'm assigning where the person is a known developer
<mdz> Keybuk: right, set
<mdz> we will have some specs where we have a subject matter expert there leading the discussion, but they won't be implementing it
<mdz> I'm leaving those blank
<mdz> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/xenubuntu-livedvd is a project that someone is actually working on, but they're not attending
<mdz> ok
<mdz> I've finished my first pass
<mdz> need to go back and look at the ones you accepted since we've been talking
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/comprehensive-coherent-wireless-client
<Keybuk> (accepted simply because he's coming)
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edgy-content
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/forum-integration
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kde-kiosk-profiles
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-accessibility
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-system-settings-usability
<mdz> what  do you think about subscribing teams to specs?
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-usability
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-userprofiling
<mdz> e.g., subscribing the accessibility team to all the a11y specs
<Keybuk> mdz: does that work?
<Keybuk> I didn't think the e-mail notifier could handle that
<mdz> Keybuk: I expect it does, yes
<Keybuk> if it works, sure
<mdz> well
<mdz> do we want it to work?
<Keybuk> dunno, do we? :p
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/launchpad-login-app
<mdz> does ti make sense to notify teams of relevant spec changes?
<mdz> should probably ask some teams
<Keybuk> it makes sense to me
<mdz> I think it probably depends
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/spoken-boot
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/make-free-space-wizard
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-on-olpc
<Keybuk> those are the specs I accepted -- feel free to edit or decline them again
<Keybuk> launchpad-login-app is marked "Not for us" in priority
<mdz> ok, https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs is looking pretty good
<mdz> will need to go and hassle some folks who are short on specs
<ogra> mdz, do you have a spec for dexconf changes ? someone subscribed me to a spec that would be superseded by it (because he found my name on a bugreport)
<Riddell> Keybuk: pong
<mdz> ogra: no, I don't, what's the one you found?
<ogra> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/gene
<Riddell> mdz: you asked me to narrow kubuntu-usability, so I changed it to adept-usability
<ogra> i just found that i'm subscribed to that one 
<mdz> "gene"?
<mdz> oh, that's the name of the guy who proposed it, heh
* Keybuk wonders what happened to the "workload" thing
<mdz> Keybuk: I think it's only on the distrorelease
<ogra> the hwdb-client stuff is covered by a whishlist bugy anyway and the 3d driver stuff should be covered by a "better-x-detection" spec
<Keybuk> mdz: talking of which, should these all be targeted to edgy?
<Keybuk> or only after approval?
<Keybuk> that field seems a bit of a no-op though
<Keybuk> mdz: to be fair to "gene", he did say in the status that he was confused by the meaning of the "Name:" field
<mdz> I think maybe we should clear the priorities, since it's only set for old specs and their priority is unlikely to be the same for edgy
<mdz> Keybuk: I had planned to wait until the specs were written actually
<Keybuk> mdz: seems fair (to both)
<mdz> I don't think we have enough information yet
<mdz> ok, I'll clear the priorities
<Keybuk> if only we could clear it where it's already set (to dapper or edgy)
* mdz watches the tabs get tinier and tinier in his browser
<ogra> you need a widescreen LCD ;)
<Keybuk> this is where we need infinity :p
<Keybuk> "UPDATE specification SET..."
<mdz> Keybuk: I'm leaving the priority alone on the ones with sabdfl fingerprints on them
<mdz> e.g. the rosetta ones
<Spec> mdz: You changed Home-User-Backup to undefined?
<Keybuk> I can't even touch the rosetta ones
<Keybuk> I only have Ubuntu super-powahs, not LP ones
<LaserJock> Keybuk: hehe
<mdz> Spec: see above
<mdz> Keybuk: I'm done, the remaining priorities are OK
<Keybuk> mdz: gimme a minute, just doing a pass over them all myself
<mdz> Keybuk: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/no-more-source-packages ?
<Keybuk> mdz: aye, informational topic for discussion
<mdz> Keybuk: but the summary doesn't explain what the discussion will be about.  is it meant to be a surprise?
<Keybuk> the spec as is on the wiki is more of a debate starter than a something to write
<Keybuk> ah, sorry; the spec is actually written -- see "Read more" :p
<Spec> mdz: see above where?
<Keybuk> . o O { why am I paranoid about tabs hiding under the tab close button }
<Spec> ohh
<ajmitch> it's an interesting idea, at least
<Spec> ne'ermind *slow*
<ajmitch> mdz: not sure if network-authentication needs to be discussed at paris now, I'm doing it as SoC project
<Keybuk> ajmitch: are you coming to Paris?
<ajmitch> nope
<ogra> why ?
<ogra> ajmitch, thats not nice from you
<ajmitch> ogra: hm?
<ogra> leaving us alone there
<ajmitch> I know, but it's a little far to swim
<Keybuk> along ... with OGRA!
<ogra> heh :)
<ogra> ajmitch, hey, i even go by car ... 
<ogra> so swimming would be the least you could do for us :)
<Keybuk> mdz: should we clear the "Basic direction approved?" flag ?
<mdz> oh, hmm, I was looking at the wrong page, there are more priorities to review
<ajmitch> yeah, I would have applied/begged for sponsorship, except the timing is wrong :)
<mdz> Keybuk: not in every case, no
<mdz> ah, no, I just got lost in my tabs. priorities are ok
<Keybuk> mdz: the only spec which has it set is native-java-gcj
<mdz> Keybuk: odd, I thought that was new
<mdz> yes, that should be cleared
<Keybuk> heh, wonder whether someone was setting their own status there <g>
<Keybuk> I choose not to change the priority of "tab-consistency" :)
<mdz> smart move
<mdz> Keybuk: anything which isn't specific enough should be marked informational, with the expectation that it'll be broken down into smaller specs
<Keybuk> it's a bit hard definining specific without seeing the spec
<mdz> mailed iwj about package-dependency-fix
<mdz> the summary should be good enough to know what it is about, if not, the responsible party needs to be nagged
<Keybuk> just gonna grab some tea, brb
* ogra wonders if its not beertime in the uk yet 
<mdz> ogra: do you have a spec registered for completing the automation of the ltsp install?
<mdz> ogra: if not, please put one in.  I know you already said you had a branch but it needs to be tracked
<ogra> nope, i saw that as general improvement of the package and didnt see a need to spec that
<ogra> i havent finished the work on that branch when you said i should keep it for edgy 
<ogra> andit was only changes in the ueb, it wouldnt work from the package alone, that would probably need discussion ...
<ogra> *udeb
<Keybuk> back
* jenda wonders what is going on here.
<ogra> mdz, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ltsp-dhcpd-autogeneration
<Keybuk> jenda: Ubuntu Development Summit (Paris)  spec meeting
<Spec> jenda: it's a meeting of specs
<mdz> hmm, we should clear the release goal for those still targeting dapper
<Keybuk> mdz: oh, Colin said he wants all of his specs to be Essential again :)
<Keybuk> mdz: I tried, I can't clear it :-/
<mdz> I'm doing it
* jenda sees only one spec... but sure :)
<mdz> Keybuk: did he call you during his holiday to let you know? ;-)
<Keybuk> mdz: he told me so in London
<Keybuk> he said "I swear, if all my specs are NOT Essential this time, I'm leaving"
<Keybuk> hmm, maybe the "NOT" wasn't in there :p
<mdz> Keybuk: ugh, you're right, it seems impossible to clear
<mdz> Keybuk: could you file a bug about that?
<Keybuk> holy cow, there's a "blueprint" product
<Keybuk> mdz: what happens if you "decline" the spec for dapper, does it go away?
<mdz> mvo: isn't auto-dist-upgrade-testing already implemented?
<mdz> Keybuk: I don't know; the ones I see are Accepted, not Proposed
<Keybuk> yeah, there does not appear to be a way to un-accept them
<mdz> the drop-down for setting the release goal isn't even populated correctly; it's surely a bug
<mdz> those specs are targeted for dapper, but the box defaults to (no value), which won't even validate
<mvo> mdz: not fully/like I want it
<Keybuk> yeah, it appears that "adds another release goal"
<Keybuk> optimized-live-cd-layout-for-faster-boot => high ?
* mvo if off to bed
<mdz> Mithrandir: around?
<Mithrandir> yeah
<mdz> Mithrandir: what's the relationship between livecd-sessions and livecd-write-as-you-go?
<mdz> is write-as-you-go likely to use the same session infrastructure?
<mdz> i.e., is it a depndency?
<Mithrandir> yes, I think so.
<Mithrandir> I think I have enough parts implemented already to do l-w-a-y-g, but it should at least be thought about.
<Mithrandir> as in, -sessions and write-as-you-go will most likely share a bunch more of the code.
<mdz> Keybuk: I think we should set the tech board as approver for all specs for now
<mdz> so that we get notifications of changes
<Keybuk> ok, I'll go through them and do that now
* Keybuk hugs Linky
<mdz> linky?
<ogra> your dog ? 
<mdz> Keybuk: is that a LP screen scraper?  if so, I want a copy :-P
<Keybuk> it's a firefox extension, has an "open all links in tabs" feature :p
<Keybuk> damned handy for LP
<ogra> you could just hold down ctrl all the time  :)
<ogra> or tape it ...
<Keybuk> ogra: that gets tedious
<mdz> I just middle-click, and have firefox set to open tabs in the background
<mdz> Keybuk: isn't *all* links a bit more than you typically want?
<Keybuk> mdz: well, normally yes
<Keybuk> it pops up a dialog and you can filter it out
<Keybuk> so I go "open all links in tabs" -> "match /+spec/" -> ok
<Keybuk> mdz: I can't do rosetta-oo-import-export
<Keybuk> I like the way Mark registers specs and sets himself as the approver
<Keybuk> (tab-consistency)
<mdz> ok, first pass of prioritization is done
<ogra> meh ...
* ogra doesnt like the prios he sees
<mdz> high ~= "we should do this", medium ~= "would be cool", low ~= "other things are more important", undefined ~= undecided
<ogra> yep, grokked that ... but i dont see student control panel as high or ltsp-management-gui as low
<mdz> essential is only sab-override at this point; probably more things will become essential
<mdz> ogra: student control panel is something you told me the community wants very much, while the management gui you said was a pet project of yours
<ogra> well, yes
<sivang> topic
<ogra> but s-c-p is already existing and has some drive in the community, i can hand it to someone
<Keybuk> !?! @ font-design-toolkit
<ogra> while i wuldnt like that for ltsp-manager until the initial featureset is done ...
<Keybuk> oh, registrant is just unconfirmed as coming
<mdz> oh? I thought he was coming
<Keybuk> he's french, so probably
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+spec/gnome-mount
<Keybuk> ^^ why is that a rosetta spec?!
<ogra> and i also saw edubuntu-edgy-cd-diet as a spec what to drop and what to keep on the CD based on numbers and measurements from the BOF shrinking the edubuntu CD is also essential
<Keybuk> mdz: most edgy specs would seem to default to "medium" ?
<mdz> Keybuk: in what way do you mean?
<mdz> as in, people are expected to propose things based on coolness?
<Keybuk> well, edgy specs are developer personal itches which amounts to "would be cool" .. unless there's a particular reason that it's higher or lower
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> all specs (except ~4) are approver: techboard now
<mdz> Keybuk: priority is a distro-level concept, though, rather than the registrant's perspective
<Keybuk> true, true
<mdz> it's also one of the main scheduling constraints
<mdz> so it's also "how important is it that we spend face time on this"
<mdz> simpler stuff is likely to get done on its own without a lot of discussion, or can be discussed by mail
<Keybuk> I've done a pass over them as well
<Keybuk> build-failure-process ... that one seems useful?  high?
<mdz> Keybuk: oh, yes
<mdz> I think that's one where I needed to both set it to informational and set the priority, and forgot one
<mdz> maybe I should open two tabs in those cases :-P
<Keybuk> I open all of the change tabs at once, and then hunt around for the thing I was looking for
<ajmitch> I get worried when I see specs name 'edgy-content'
<ajmitch> that has so many meanings..
<Keybuk> ubiquity-advanced-partitioner => medium ?
<mdz> Keybuk: yeah
<Keybuk> hmm, package-dependency-fix worries me ... I have a feeling Ian wants to "change things" with Replaces
<Keybuk> live-cd-stacked-filesystems -- that will let us do other cool things like a triple-arch DVD ... medium?
<mdz> Keybuk: the idea of demanding more complexity from unionfs frightens me
<Keybuk> unionfs hasn't proved to be the brittle link in the chain though
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-14
<ogra> mdz, btw if you see any need to revisit unionfs for ltsp, feel free to drop me a spec :)
<mdz> Keybuk: it still randomly oopses sometimes
<mdz> even with our very basic configuration
<mdz> and unionfs for ltsp was a DISASTER
<mdz> it and NFS hate each other
<ogra> yep
<ogra> but that might have improved, i havent looked at unionfs' changelog since quite some time
<Keybuk> mdz: so that explains that then ... anyone in ubuntu-core-dev who proposed a spec automatically had it accepted
<mdz> Keybuk: that's odd, there were things on +settopics which were proposed by -core-dev
<mdz> Keybuk: but anyway that was OK in almost every case since most of -core-dev will be there
<Keybuk> we can't tell who proposed it though, no?
<mdz> no
<Keybuk> we can only tell who registered it
<mjg59> Argh my inbox
* ajmitch knows of core-dev proposed specs that weren't auto-accepted
* mjg59 goes back to bed
<Keybuk> mdz: so, what do do with these undefined ones?
<mdz> Keybuk: I think maybe they should be left alone for now
<mdz> Keybuk: or set them all to low
<Keybuk> undefined is better than low, it shows we haven't thought about it yet
<mdz> I don't want to futz around with the browser to set them all when it's not clear what we'll want in the end
<mdz> there could be things buried in the swamp that are on there for a reason, like someone coming in just to discuss one thing
<mdz> and those should be prioritized 
<mdz> the sab says we have too many already
<mdz> Keybuk: it also depends on how many specs each person has so far
<Keybuk> 4 Essential, 33 High, 23 Medium
<Keybuk> yeah, it's annoying we don't have a sprint workload feature
<Riddell> does assigned mean I'm expected to implement it or just to lead the BoF?
<mdz> leaving what...65?
<Keybuk> yup, 65 undefined
<mdz> Riddell: it means I wanted to see your name next to it on https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
<Keybuk> unsurprisingly the most assigned are Riddell and ogra
<Keybuk> being derivative maintainers
<Keybuk> after that, it's tollef and mvo
<Riddell> Keybuk: I have a bunch of KDE people coming who can share the load
<Keybuk> NMSP is a sabdfl-desired discussion
<Keybuk> so bumped that to Essential -- should only be 1 session
<sivang> Keybuk: NMSP ?
<Keybuk> sivang: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages
<sivang> Keybuk: ah, right.
* sivang wonders what fun are we in to with the rpath guys :-)
<Keybuk> WHAT IS RPATH?
<Keybuk> err, tr [A-Z]  [a-z] 
<sivang> Keybuk: seriously asking? :)
<Keybuk> the only rpath I know about is the ld flag to hardcode a path to look for shared libraries in
<sivang> Keybuk: http://www.rpath.com/corp/
<zul> heh there is always a patch for quieten grub
<sivang> Keybuk: Keybuk http://wiki.conary.com/
<Keybuk> sivang: that doesn't seem to fit
<Keybuk> "software applicance company" ?
<Keybuk> sounds like makers of network applicances
<sivang> Keybuk: sounded the same for me
<Keybuk> oh, conary
<sivang> Keybuk: but I was interested in conary some time ago, in the "recepies" method but then forgot about it until I saw the delegates list :-)
<Keybuk> I've never really worked out what conary is supposed to be *for*
<sivang> Keybuk: also, if we have rants per autotools et al, we can direct them at Erik and Michael ;-)
* Keybuk has never found the need to rant about the autotools
<sivang> Keybuk: reading the NMSP wiki , I think there are colliding efforts to solve some of the similar issues. "the RCS approach to packaging" or so.
<Keybuk> sivang: right, except it's an RCS approach to binary packages
<Keybuk> ie. you checkout 1.0 of the udev binary
<Keybuk> and update to 1.1, etc.
<kbrooks> sivang: ? :P
<kbrooks> can i ask a questino
<kbrooks> i'm reading that spec
<kbrooks> and
<kbrooks> i simply dont get it
<kbrooks> source packages are necessary, no?
<kbrooks> it is a BIG paradigm change for EVERYONE
<kbrooks> it could be argued that the spec is technically flawed
<Riddell> kbrooks: how is it technically flawed?
<kbrooks> Riddell: well, as i said, it's a big paradigm change... and i think the spec author wants apt-get source (as a example, of course) to be changed
<Riddell> yes that's right
<Riddell> but you've not pointed out any flaw
<kbrooks> Riddell: that's the flaw. changing apt-get source is a flaw imo
<Riddell> it would help your argument if you gave a reason :)
<Riddell> this is all an evil plan from sabdfl, you can ask him about it and he'll put his pinky in his mouth and laugh manically (really)
<ajmitch> kbrooks: stating "it's flawed" isn't enough :)
<kbrooks> it's a flaw because apt-get source shouldn't be changed.
<ajmitch> but why not?
<kbrooks> because it is a big b/c (backwards compatibility) problem
<kbrooks> if we want apt-get source to be changed, then we should add "--use-bzr" and leave that off.
<Keybuk> kbrooks: why?
<Keybuk> kbrooks: you've failed to give a reason
<Keybuk> "X is flawed?"
<Keybuk> "why is X flawed?"
<Keybuk> "because X is flawed?"
<Keybuk> "but why?"
<Keybuk> kbrooks: the spec can be summed up as "make a fundamental, BIG paradigm change for everyone" ... that's kinda the point
<kbrooks> Keybuk: OK
<kbrooks> Keybuk: where can i talk about specs in?
<ogra> i'd summarize it as "drop all the middleware packaging crap between the developer and the source"
<kbrooks> ogra: wherre can I talk about specs in? ping
<ogra> kbrooks, in paris :)
<kbrooks> ogra: i'm talking about a IRC channel
<kbrooks> ogra: france is too far for me :-)
<LaserJock> maybe -offtopic ? unless -devel wants it
<ogra> the specs are the base for face to face discussions ... even though we might be available on IRC during the discussion, having a BOF meeting on IRC in parallel while speccing something doesnt work well
<Keybuk> you will be able to listen in to all of the BOFs by installing a piece of VoIP software
<Keybuk> as all BOFs will be broadcast that way
<ogra> oh, really ?
<Keybuk> if you have any particular problems with the NoMoreSourcePackages spec though, I'd be happy to discuss them with you (I'm the author of that spec)
<ogra> thats cool :)
<Keybuk> hang on, let me flip to laptop
<Keybuk> better
<Keybuk> ogra: that's why elmo asked whether anyone had a !i386 ... the software only works on i386
<Keybuk> and we all get headsets and get to pretend to be Madonna
<ogra> i think NMSP is just a logical consequence if launchpad ...
<ogra> hmm, good to know, i'll make sure to have my amd64 lappie with me ...
<Keybuk> kbrooks: so, tell me you problems
<LaserJock> Keybuk: everybody?
<kbrooks> Keybuk: well, OK. as i said, it's a big change
<zul> Keybuk: sweet!
<Keybuk> LaserJock: I'm not sure, I'm not sure I'm supposed to know the secret plan <g>
<Keybuk> kbrooks: it is a big change, yes ... it means learning a completely new way to do packaging work
<kbrooks> Keybuk: won't this change be bad?
* LaserJock thinks that only the smart people should get microphones ;-)
<Keybuk> kbrooks: why would it be "bad" ?
<Keybuk> bad would imply that a change has negative consequences
<kbrooks> Keybuk: bad as in counterproductive
<Keybuk> I would have said it would increase productivity
<kbrooks> Keybuk: how does it increase productivity?
<Keybuk> updating to new upstream releases becomes simple ... just merge from the upstream branch; no more tedious mucking around with tarballs and getting the patches right
<Keybuk> merging with Debian becomes just as simple ... just merge from the Debian branch
<Keybuk> no more mom, manual merges, etc.
<kbrooks> Keybuk: "mom"?
<Keybuk> kbrooks: merge-o-matic; the thing we spend the first two months of any release dealing with
<Keybuk> contributing changes to Ubuntu becomes simple
<Keybuk> right now you have to do something like:
<Keybuk> apt-get source foo
<kbrooks> Keybuk: what do you  mean, no more merge-o-matic? why would this supersede mom?
<Keybuk> cp foo foo~   (so you can diff later ... most people forget this)
<Keybuk> make changes to foo
<Keybuk> make a diff from foo~ to foo
<Keybuk> now that becomes just
<Keybuk> branch foo; make changes; commit; tell a developer
<LaserJock> yeah, at first I was like "woah" but now I'm like "wow"
<Keybuk> kbrooks: because anyone can just "bzr merge $debian"
<kbrooks> LaserJock: woah as in?
<LaserJock> kbrooks: woah as in, that's a big change
<kbrooks> Keybuk: stop. $debian? 
<Keybuk> kbrooks: whatever the branch URL for debian turns out to be
<Keybuk> probably just "debian"
<kbrooks> Keybuk: ummm.........
<kbrooks> Keybuk: what do you mean?
<Keybuk> Debian
<Keybuk> it's a Linux distribution
<kbrooks> Keybuk: where does this URL come from/
<Keybuk> every 6 months, we catch up with the changes they've made by merging them into Ubuntu
<Keybuk> that's our primary source of development
<Keybuk> right now that is _hard_work_
<Keybuk> kbrooks: Launchpad
<kbrooks> Keybuk: the *original* debian package?
<Keybuk> it would be the Debian package imported into bzr, in a manner that allows us to merge from it
<kbrooks> Keybuk: OK
<kbrooks> "merge from it"? don't you mean "merge TO it"?
<Keybuk> bzr diff -r tag:093-1..tag:094-1 .../udev
<Keybuk> wouldn't that be great?
<Keybuk> no, from
<Keybuk> cd ubuntu-udev
<Keybuk> bzr merge .../debian-udev
<Keybuk> take the changes made in debian-udev and merge them into the ubuntu-udev branch
<Keybuk> ("merge from debian-udev")
<kbrooks> Keybuk: yes it would be great. 
<Keybuk> hell, forget just diff'ing revisions
<kbrooks> Keybuk: "tag:" ?
<Keybuk> kbrooks: I'm making up syntax :p
<kbrooks> OK :p
<Keybuk> bzr branch .../udev
<Keybuk> # make changes you like
<Keybuk> bzr commit
<kbrooks> that's it/
<kbrooks> 3 lines?
<kbrooks> ...
<Keybuk> bzr push launchpad/~kbrooks/my-udev
<kbrooks> now i'm like "wow"
<Keybuk> yeah
<ogra> Keybuk, i'd really whish i could do that with debians ltsp (which is even in bzr) :) 
<Keybuk> now you have your own udev package
<Keybuk> Launchpad builds it for you, yadda, yadda
<Keybuk> but oh no, new ubuntu udev package *sigh*
<kbrooks> Keybuk: huh?
<Keybuk> bzr merge .../udev
<Keybuk> easy
<Keybuk> now you're up to date
<kbrooks> Keybuk: stop for a min.
<kbrooks> Keybuk: launchpad builds my new udev package?
<Keybuk> ogra: why can't you?
<Keybuk> kbrooks: sure
<kbrooks> Keybuk: so its semi automatic?
<kbrooks> Keybuk: so far i like the idea
<Keybuk> hmm, for some reason the Launchpad spec tracker has become password protected
<kbrooks> Keybuk: it's cool - revision control leveraged, that is
<LaserJock> Keybuk: do you think that is doable in Edgy?
<ogra> Keybuk, because i dont want all the skolelinux fixes and debian-edu changes we dont need in our package, but the feature i want to maerge wasnt developed ina separate branch and they merged randomly in the middle of feature development 
<Keybuk> kbrooks: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/PersonalPackageArchives
<Keybuk> can you see that?
<kbrooks> who, me?
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> LaserJock: I think there's enough time that edgy+1 could be maintained that way
<Keybuk> however it requires a lot of work by the LP guys -- who have a very full plate
<kbrooks> Keybuk: WTF?
<kbrooks> Keybuk: I can see it
<kbrooks> Keybuk: i wonder why I can.
<Keybuk> kbrooks: that's the old public wiki
<Keybuk> I don't know why the new one is private :-/  even I don't have the password to it
<ogra> Keybuk, so i have 180 changes where i want a feature that was developed in ~70 commits of these 180 changes ... but scattered in there are merges that diverge the base from ours ...
<LaserJock> Keybuk: yeah, that is what I was sort of thinking, how would you transition that? whould it have to be all or nothing?
<ogra> so i end up with tons of conflicts ...
<kbrooks> Keybuk: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/PersonalPackageArchives: HCT: define?
<Keybuk> HCT is the predecessor to NoMoreSourcePackages
<Keybuk> the idea was a tool that used revision control to maintain source packages
<Keybuk> I no longer think that's the correct approach
<kbrooks> what does HCT stand for
<Keybuk> (PPA is an old spec, written ~1 year ago)
<Keybuk> Hypothetical Changeset Tool
<Keybuk> ogra: ah, that old problem :p
* ajmitch remembers seeing HCT demoed in sydney
<Keybuk> ogra: the solution is to force better practice
<ogra> Keybuk, yes, *i* know that, *i* have a separate branch for every ltsp feature 
<Keybuk> ogra: I mean force it upon Debian -- teach them why branches is better
<kbrooks> Keybuk: how?
<ogra> the solution is to teach people to actually *use* the branching opportunities bzr gives them
<kbrooks> ogra: how?
<ogra> kbrooks, develop every single feature in a separate branch of the main app ...
<ogra> in the end you just do: cd ltsp && bzr merge ../ltsp-sound
<kbrooks> ogra: "every single feature"?
<Keybuk> branches are cheap
<kbrooks> ogra: show me a quick example?
<ogra> so everybody wanting your feature can grab it as well from there
<Keybuk> $ cp -a udev udev.fix-bug-12345
<Keybuk> $ cd udev.fix-bug-12345
<Keybuk> $ vi udevd.c
<Keybuk> $ bzr commit
<Keybuk> $ cd ../udev
<kbrooks> ogra: this reminds me of svn branches :-)
<Keybuk> $ bzr merge ../udev.fix-bug-12345
<Keybuk> (real syntax)
<ogra> kbrooks, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/ltsp/
<kbrooks> ogra: except SVN is centralized
<ogra> see the amount of branches 
<kbrooks> ogra: 8?
<Keybuk> ogra: btw, BzrMaintainerHowto ... get ltsp pushed into the supermirror so everyone can hack <g>
<ajmitch> Keybuk: so you're not going to work on hct any longer?
<kbrooks> supermirror?
<kbrooks> ummm
<kbrooks> teach me :P
<ogra> Keybuk, i havent an edgy branch yet before i decide how i merge the debian modularization of ltsp without breaking ours completely
<Keybuk> kbrooks: bazaar.launchpad.net
<Keybuk> kbrooks: basically it's a giant place anyone can host a bzr branch or mirror
<Keybuk> e.g. http://launchpad.net/products/udev/+branches
<kbrooks> Keybuk: meta mirror?
<Keybuk> there you can see the different known udev branches
<ajmitch> Keybuk: the problem I found with bzr & importing upstream tarballs what to do on new upstream releases when stuff gets moved around
<Keybuk> if you click on "Ubuntu package of udev"
<Keybuk> you can see the different revisions
<ajmitch> afaik the best option is to just copy over the .bzr dir
<Keybuk> you also get a URL ("http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/udev/ubuntu") that you can give to bzr
<Keybuk> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/udev/ubuntu
<Keybuk> will give you a directory containing the ubuntu source package of udev
<Keybuk> (today)
<Keybuk> ajmitch: -> #u-d
<kbrooks> devel?
<kbrooks> Keybuk: i get.... redirected
<kbrooks> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/ doesnt work
<kbrooks> or should it?
<Keybuk> there's nothing "interesting" at the top-level
<Keybuk> follow the chain I gave to see interesting things
<kbrooks> Keybuk: connecting
<kbrooks> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev 404
<kbrooks> weird heh
<kbrooks> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/udev/ubuntu/
<kbrooks> Keybuk: i dont see interesting things there
<Keybuk> kbrooks: add a .bzr
<Keybuk> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/udev/ubuntu/.bzr
<Keybuk> it's a bzr branch
<kbrooks> ah
<kbrooks> ty
<Ekushey> when is the next CC meeting?
<dsas> !schedule london
<robitaille> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 18:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 21:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 21:00: Technical Board
<dsas> thanks
<jenda> Ekushey: nobody knows :) I've been trying to find out for a week.
<Ekushey> jenda: ping me if u find out ;)
<jenda> Ekushey: OK
<EmxBA> hi again :)
<highvoltage> heh :)
<EmxBA> hehe :)
<cbx33> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 18:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 21:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 21:00: Technical Board
<EmxBA> @london
<cbx33> @schedule london
<EmxBA> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 18:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 21:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 21:00: Technical Board
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 18:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 21:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 21:00: Technical Board
<EmxBA> @schedule sarajevo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Sarajevo: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
<simira> when's the next CC?
<cbx33> simira: check fridge
<EmxBA> so edubuntu cookbook is tomorrow
<EmxBA> 21:00
<simira> cbx33: yes... and? There's no meeting scheduled the next month, as I can see
<cbx33> hmm
<cbx33> sorry,was just suggesting, I havn't looked either
<EmxBA> @schedule sarajevo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Sarajevo: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
<DanielC> @schedule sarajevo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Sarajevo: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
<EmxBA> ok
<EmxBA> 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<EmxBA> and "15 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu Cookbook "
<EmxBA> i'll be on cookbook
<EmxBA> today maybe not
<DanielC> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 18:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 21:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 21:00: Technical Board
<Ekushey> @schedule dhaka
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Dhaka: 14 Jun 18:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 19:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 23:00: Documentation Team | 16 Jun 02:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 21 Jun 02:00: Technical Board
<Ekushey> cool
<EmxBA> @schedule antartica
<DanielC> EmxBA: Antartica is a continent that covers every timezone on Earth because it contains a pole.
<EmxBA> @schedule south_pole
<EmxBA> :)
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Antarctica/South_Pole: 15 Jun 00:00: Edubuntu | 15 Jun 01:30: Xubuntu | 16 Jun 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 05:00: Documentation Team | 16 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 21 Jun 08:00: Technical Board
<EmxBA> danielC: i know that, just kidding
<Ekushey> lol
<Seveas> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 14 2006, 10:02:20 - Next meeting: Edubuntu  in 1 hours
<EmxBA> ok
<Seveas> meh
<Seveas> that's incorrect
<Seveas> it's in 1:58
<EmxBA> hi seveas
<highvoltage> wow that's quite cool (about antartica)
<EmxBA> lol
<Seveas> @now 
<Ubugtu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
<EmxBA> wtf?
<Seveas> @reload Webcal
<Seveas> @now 
<Ubugtu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
<Seveas> stupid bot
<EmxBA> lol
<Seveas> @reload Webcal
<EmxBA> i finally installed ethereal
<Seveas> @now 
<EmxBA> enjoy
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 14 2006, 10:07:57 - Next meeting: Edubuntu  in 1 hour 52 minutes
<highvoltage> EmxBA: please don't say 'wtf?' on #ubuntu-meeting, it's considered to be against the CoC :)
<EmxBA> ok
<EmxBA> no bad words
* EmxBA ashamed
<EmxBA> :)
<highvoltage> EmxBA: nah, it happens :)
<Seveas> there, ubugtu now is a bit more correct
<EmxBA> i know
<GNAM> @schedule Rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
<EmxBA> :)
<EmxBA> everyone, join #edubuntu-bosnia
* Ekushey is not from bosnia
<Seveas> EmxBA, please don't clutter up the logs of #ubuntu-meeting. Preferably this channel is completely silent between meetings
<EmxBA> ok
* EmxBA will be quit
<Ekushey> Seveas: EmxBA says he's 14 years old
<Seveas> Ekushey, even 14 year old people ahould be quiet ;)
<EmxBA> ok
<jenda> Seveas: very non-CoC-conformist...
<Seveas> jenda, ?
<jenda> err... never mind, I missed the 'even'... it sounded a lot worse without it. Sorry ;)
<ogra> jenda, ?
<Seveas> hahaha
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<kbrooks> meeting
<kbrooks> ogra! ping
<kbrooks> ogra! start it
<cbx33> kbrooks: you seem rather excited
<cbx33> <--------------------------------meeting notes start here--------------------------------------->
<Seveas> <------------- no, here --------------->
<kbrooks> heh Seveas 
<cbx33> damn you :p
<ogra>  <------------- no ... , here --------------->
<flint> ogra, good morning!
<kbrooks> damn you ogra :P
<ogra> hey Flik 
<JaneW> <----- here----->
<ogra> heh
<ogra> flint too
<Seveas> hi JaneW !
<ogra> sooo
<kbrooks> JaneW: you're silly. :-)
<JaneW> hi everyone
<ogra> we have some major changes i'd like to talk about in advance
<DanielC> hi everyone, first time at an Edubuntu meeting.
* Yagisan is here, but just lurking
* JaneW promises not to be disruptive
<cbx33> ogra: sounds ominous
<ogra> rodarvus, around ? 
* kbrooks waits
<rodarvus> ogra: I'm here
<ogra> yay
<ogra> ok, as you all might have seen on the mailing list, JaneW is leaving us today
<flint> JaneW, Bummer...
<DanielC> :(
<kbrooks> !!!
<kbrooks> why?
* JaneW waves
* cbx33 starts the hugs
* Seveas hugs JaneW 
<cbx33> maybe we should all go on strike
<flint> JaneW, what is it, Kids, health or new horizons?
<ogra> please giver her a long big hug if you ever meet her in person, the first edubuntu release would never have happened without her
* JaneW *hugs* everyone
* kbrooks hugs JaneW :(
<bluekuja> JaneW: thanks
<JaneW> flint: bit of everything, but mostly looking for sane hours
<kbrooks> ogra: doesnt surprise me
* rodarvus hugs JaneW
* cbx33 hugs Lara ;)
<ogra> heh
<JaneW> ogra: pah, edubuntu is all YOU
<ogra> not at all
<kbrooks> ogra: other changes?
<ogra> i wouldnt have managed any of the paperwork 
* JaneW expects everyone here to keep making edubuntu better and better
<ogra> kbrooks, patiency is golden :P
<kbrooks> ogra: OK
<ogra> JaneW, we will and if only to please you 
<LaserJock> hehe
<kbrooks> ogra: i'm interested in the changes
<ogra> soooo
<ogra> that were the negative changes ....
<ogra> without JaneW edubuntu would go down the drain, thats a known fact at canonical :)
<ogra> so the team was/will be enhanced by two people
<ogra> guys ....
* ogra *drumrolls*
* cbx33 joins in
<cbx33> as he is a drummer :p
* bluekuja too
* Seveas bangs on the table
<ogra> let me introduce you to our new star rodarvus !!
<cbx33> hi rodarvus 
* rodarvus raises his hand
<rodarvus> hi all :)
<Seveas> hi
* cbx33 slaps rodarvus 5
<DanielC> hi rodarvus
<LaserJock> hi rodarvus 
<bluekuja> hello rodarvus 
<ogra> rodarvus, you might introduce yourself and tell us about what you'll be doing ...
<rodarvus> sure
<rodarvus> briefly talking about my past:
<ogra> (i'm not sure about that myself yet ... but mark said you'll be technical lead aside from OLPC)
<rodarvus> I've been doing development on linux for the last twelve years
<rodarvus> worked at a few places such as Conectiva, Terra Lycos and Nokia Institute of Technology
<rodarvus> I've worked doing distro development for quite a few years now (first rpm based, and later, deb based distros)
<rodarvus> and in the last few years gained some expertise on the embedded/semi-embedded market too
<JaneW> welcome rodarvus and enjoy the ride
* highvoltage arrives
<rodarvus> as ogra mentioned, I'll work on OLPC, and, in theory :)
<bluekuja> welcome man
<flint> rodarvus, welcome, where you from?
<rodarvus> will be the "Edubuntu Engineering Lead" - I promise to work hard on it :)
<ogra> :)
<rodarvus> flint: I'm from Brazil
<rodarvus> JaneW, bluekuja: thanks :)
<JaneW> where the nuts come from
<flint> rodarvus, excellent. 
<JaneW> *hide*
<ogra> heh
<ogra> JaneW, nuts like kiko you mean ? 
<rodarvus> as a coincidence, Brazil is one of the countries which will very likely adopt OLPC in the very near future
<JaneW> indeed
<highvoltage> JaneW: you will be missed.
<flint> JaneW, and good tek...
<rodarvus> ogra: heh :D
<JaneW> highvoltage: *bow*
<bluekuja> rodarvus: np :)
<rodarvus> I'm quite eager to meet you guys at Paris, next week (or in the future, for the ones who won't be able to be there)
<rodarvus> specially ogra, of whom I have heard great things about :)
<cbx33> wish I was going to Paris with you guys
<flint> rodarvus, I would look forward to meeting you in Sao Paulo myself.  How close to the capitol do you live?
<highvoltage> rodarvus: you're going to paris, cool!
<ogra> cbx33, next time 
<cbx33> I hope so
<ogra> rodarvus, i'm looking forward to it too ;)
<rodarvus> in the next few hours I'll start commiting spec braindumps into Blueprint (mostly for OLPC, but also for Edubuntu and Ubuntu itself)
<rodarvus> flint: I live in Curitiba, about 600km from So Paulo
<highvoltage> :)
<rodarvus> highvoltage: indeed!
<flint> rodarvus, nice touch the tilde... 
<ogra> rodarvus, make sure to ping mdz and/or Keybuk about it they did the approval run yesterday already, so yours dont get lost
<ogra> (for the specs that is)
<cbx33> yeh I have 2 sitting in there that are awaiting approval
<cbx33> be interesting to see if they get in
<rodarvus> overall, the first days at Canonical have been great, already - I sense it will be a *magic* experience to be part of this great team! (in both meanings)
<rodarvus> ogra: that will be great!
<rodarvus> our OLPC target is not for Edgy, afaik (but I might be wrong)
<flint> rodarvus, writing code remains the process of nailing jello to a wall...
<flint> :^)
<rodarvus> we'll surely have to discuss this a lot, next week :)
<ogra> well, edgy would work if you had 10 monkeys coding for you :)
<ogra> but given that mark doesnt hire monkeys, i tend to agree :)
<rodarvus> right :)
<flint> ogra, edgy would work if you had a blue-ray to write it to...
* cbx33 could be a monkey for you guys :p
<flint> :^)
* LaserJock looks around for monkeys
<ogra> flint, we'll fix the CDs 
<cbx33> wait what am I saying I already am
<ogra> ok, next change ....
<flint> LaserJock, I would prefer that you called us primates... :^)
<ogra> we'll also get a new top level manager for edubuntu 
<cbx33> oooh?
<flint> ogra, a TLM eh?
<ogra> a so called "education program manager"
<ogra> i know there are negotiations going on with someone, but i havent heard the final outcome yet, so i cant say much more
<ogra> JaneW, do you know anything we could make public ? 
<JaneW> I think there is a signed agreement now
<ogra> YAY
<highvoltage> cool.
<cbx33> w00t
<rodarvus> great news :)
<JaneW> but that's insider trading :P
<ogra> hehe
<rodarvus> haha
<cbx33> JaneW: you naughty girl
<JaneW> start date mid-July
<highvoltage> JaneW: heh. are you giving it away there ;)
<highvoltage> ?
<LaserJock> hehe
<JaneW> I wish it was me
<JaneW> but it's not :(
<cbx33> awww
<DanielC> :(
<JaneW> but it is someone I know very well
<ogra> highvoltage, that job is up one or two levels in hirarchy (and payment i guess) compared to JaneW'S current job
<ogra> edubuntu will be its own little department inside canonical now
<flint> JaneW, I will miss you.
<highvoltage> interesting.
<cbx33> ogra: exdcellet
<LaserJock> ogra: cool
<cbx33> all the more reason to go to BETT2007 !!!
<ogra> cbx33, something to discuss with our new manager then :)
<highvoltage> ogra: i can't pretend that i understand it all 100%, but my instinct tells me that it will work out good.
<flint> cbx33, do not forget NECC in Beautiful San Diego CA...
<cbx33> indeed
<LaserJock> ogra: so you, rodarvus and the new manager?
<cbx33> flint: indeed
<ogra> LaserJock, yeps
<highvoltage> and EC?
<JaneW> so the new program manager, who will look at getting edubuntu installed around the world is RichardW
<flint> ogra, TLM == ECM?
<highvoltage> EC will still vote new members, etc?
<ogra> what about EC ?
<ogra> sure
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> ogra: so what's your position? if you don't mind me asking ;-)
<ogra> our new manager aalso is babysitter for JaneW's kids ;)
<ogra> (sometimes)
<highvoltage> also a parent of them :)
<LaserJock> lol
<bluekuja> highvoltage: :D
<ogra> LaserJock, i'll report to rodarvus 
<JaneW> and I have full whipping power with them too
<ogra> LaserJock, thats all i was told yet 
<flint> JaneW, Is your husband RichardW taking over?
<highvoltage> ogra: is rodarvus like a mdz for edubuntu?
<ogra> flint, hey, you grokked it !
<flint> JaneW, not that this is a bad thing...
<ogra> highvoltage, rather Richard ...
<rodarvus> Richard is, I think
<JaneW> flint: yes
<flint> ogra, I am slow, but i make up for it by being pretty stoopid.... :^)
<JaneW> ogra: I am not sure if he will be that *technically* involved, prolly more directional
<flint> JaneW, that is pretty romantic (awwwwwwww!).
<ogra> just on a sidenote, i'm not happy about not having mdz in the reporting chain 
<JaneW> ogra and rodarvus will be the technical gurus still
<JaneW> flint: pah! :P
<rodarvus> actually, I'm still quite new to emit opinions, but I think mdz is kind of unique
<highvoltage> ogra: i was thinking the same thing, but decided not to say anything, since it doesn't affect me personally.
<flint> ogra, mdz will be in London.  Trust me he will be in the chain big time.
<rodarvus> in terms of management & techincal skills
<ogra> rodarvus, we'll be doing a lot stuff inside the ubuntu distro team, we should talk with sabdfl in paris about the structure 
<ogra> i think distro team lead involvement is essential (but thats only me)
<rodarvus> so I believe it will require involved teamwork to reach the standard of quality mdz has on his work
<ogra> yeah
<flint> while mdz can be distant, abstract and generally annoying anywere he will be directly applied when he resides in London....
<rodarvus> ogra: sure, I agree
<flint> and I mean that in the nicest way...
<ogra> but we dont develop very much thats unique usually (OLPC might change that)
<ogra> usually we change ubuntu distro packages ...
<cbx33> ogra: indeed
<cbx33> so really big changes then
<ogra> adding a feature or two ...
<flint> ogra, what the heck is OLPC?
<rodarvus> OLPC might change that radically (but this is talk for paris ;) )
<ogra> but well, that something to discuss with sabdfl
<rodarvus> flint: http://www.laptop.org/
<JaneW> I am pretty certain mdz will stay involved
<rodarvus> its a acronym for One Laptop per Child
<flint> oh yea One Laptop Per Child...
<ogra> JaneW, not in the structure overview i got from sabdfl ... 
<flint> the MIT thang...
* pips1 waves at JaneW
<rodarvus> flint: right, it has lots of potential for students, specially in developing countries
* JaneW can almost not help trying to get involved...
<flint> I presume that a OLPC terminal will pixie boot just like anything else eh?
<ogra> flint, terminal ?
<JaneW> hi pips1 
<rodarvus> what means "pixie boot"?
<flint> rodarvus, the only problem would be the RF link.
<ogra> rodarvus, PXE
<pips1> hi JaneW
<rodarvus> ohh
<rodarvus> flint: no. the OLPC hardware has its own flash card (about 500mb large, btw)
<ogra> flint, you cant PXE boot wireless devices and i doubt the plan for OLPC is to tie the kids to a LAN wire
<pips1> JaneW, I really am a bit sad to see you go.
* pips1 hugs JaneW
<flint> ogra, I am slow this morning, the Edubuntu thing has always been a server that ties kid computers into a classrooms together
<rodarvus> the OLPC hardware quite specialized - plas for battery life are 24h, uses mesh wifi instead of normal wifi, small memory/storage
<rodarvus> s/plas/plans/
<flint> ogra, now with the big flash, shared storage could be a thing.
<ogra> flint, yes, thats one of edubuntus areas
<ogra> (ltsp)
<flint> rodarvus, I smell a fork.
<ogra> but onlya one of many you can cover with edubuntu
<rodarvus> OLPC also "includes" one (or more) server(s) on the school
<highvoltage> rodarvus: so you like franks sinatra heh? :)
<rodarvus> but students can take their notebooks home
<rodarvus> highvoltage: indeed - how do you learned that? :)
<flint> rodarvus, you have big problems running LTSP on wifi.
<ogra> i'm really looking forward in rodarvus work for ltsp, since a shrunk down system will help us a lot there
<ogra> i.e. i can use the embedded stuff for the ltsp clients and cut down a lot of ram requirement i guess
<rodarvus> exactly
<highvoltage> rodarvus: your blog page
<rodarvus> highvoltage: oh :)
<flint> ogra, if it gets faster I vote for it (if I voted...)
<flint> :^)
<ogra> highvoltage, we all need to learn brazilian now :)
<flint> ogra, Portugese...
<ogra> well
<ogra> :)
<ogra> shall we move on with the agenda ? we're at 30min
<flint> ogra np :^)
<rodarvus> actually, brazilian portuguese
<rodarvus> :)
<ogra> :)
<flint> rodarvus, never could spell anything.  
<bluekuja> ogra: well I added a point in agenda regarding the Testers Team, to discuss about membership guidelines, todo list etc 
<bluekuja> with all of you
<ogra> from the tech side there is not much i can tell yet, the archive isnt ready for uploads yet, so no packaging work is going on atm ...
<bluekuja> to decide a stable guideline for the future
<ogra> we have a bunch of approved specs for paris that are listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuEdgyIdeas
<flint> ogra, we would like to add gin.  is this the place?
<ogra> i'm subscribed to most of them in launchpad so you can find another overview that also shows the status under https://launchpad.net/people/ogra/+specs
<ogra> flint, gin ? 
<flint> gnome instant nationalization.  helps a lot when setting network xterms up.
<ogra> flint, you mean https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ltsp-login-and-session-handling
<ogra> ?
<flint> ogra, na, dclug wrote this quickie.  I started and competent folks finished it in python.
<ogra> seems mdz didnt see any urge for that, it hasnt even gotten a priority assigned
<flint> i suppose mdz does not spend too much time using edubuntu eh?
<flint> it is necessary
<ogra> flint, we wont tolerate scripts that change /etc/environment or other files that are forbidden to be touched by debian policy
<flint> ogra, how do we do this?
<ogra> its not the way to solve your prob, i told you this seberal times already
<ogra> gdm or ldm are the right place to attack it
<flint> the program is written and it works.
<ogra> (depending which one we'll use in the future)
<flint> the program is vital to multi lingual systems.  https://wiki.edubuntu.org/gin
<ogra> flint, it breaks the systems, /etc/environment *has not to be touched by anything* in a debian based system
<ogra> we discussed it before 
<flint> ok how do we gain the functionality?
<ogra> its not something to solve with a hack
<ogra> do it in the right place which is the login manager in this case
<flint> ogra, i am a hacker.  this hack is to demonstrate the requirement.
<highvoltage> sorry, had an interuption (/me catches up)
<flint> ogra, I wish I could program, but likely i am too old :^)
<ogra> flint, you apparently *can* program ;) 
<ogra> just do it in the right place ;)
<flint> ogra, I want to know how to do this.
<ogra> ldm has all functionallity to set the language since its become themed ... 
<flint> ogra, I will take a look.
<ogra> the problem is to determine the list of langs from the server, if thats solved it takes me less than a minute to enable the selection menu
<ogra> (in the code)
<ogra> aything else for the tech side ? 
<ogra> flint, btw, will we see you in paris ? 
<flint> ogra, I just bought a house in Barre Vermont. and while I would like nothing better than a ciggi break with the likes of you, I need to renovate this victorian monstrosity my wife bought.
<flint> :^)
<flint> ogra, I will get the next one, promise.
<ogra> heh, good luck :)
<ogra> seems to be the time tio change houses ...
<flint> ogra, thanks, exactly!!!
<flint> ogra, not you too?
<ogra> flint, i'm currently moving to this one http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/CIMG0517.JPG
<rodarvus> flint: I feel your pain - we moved to our new apartment two months ago
<rodarvus> its new, but many, many things had to be done to make it actually a enjoyable place to be
* cbx33 can't afford to buy :)
<cbx33> :(
<ogra> cbx33, inherit ;)
<cbx33> heh
<ogra> (best case from an unknown secret rich uncle)
<rodarvus> ogra: its a beautiful place!
<cbx33> well, what's left on the agenda?
<LaserJock> ogra: nice, much bigger then my place in the middle of the Nevada desert ;-)
<cbx33> seeing as we have 10 mins :p
<flint> you folks throw a hell of a meeting...
<ogra> rodarvus, well, i like my current place more, but thats rented, and for the new one we dont have to pay anything
<cbx33> LaserJock: is an alien
<ogra> ok, lest move on else we'll be out of time 
<ogra> do we have anything for artwork ?
<ogra> (me guesses not yet)
<cbx33> hmm
<LaserJock> cbx33: oops, I was trying to keep it a secret ;-)
<ogra> documentation ? 
<cbx33> no thought AliasVegas has said she wants piccies of you all to do the edubuntu homie lookalikes :p
* ogra kicks his lag ...
<ogra> cbx33, but thats something we still have 4 months time for :)
<ogra> any doc stuff ? 
<highvoltage> my lag is bad too :(
<LaserJock> is pygi here? the cookbook people had a meeting yesterday
<ogra> (i saw you are working with the doc team now)
<cbx33> um, I'm hoping to fix up ESA into it's printed state soon
<flint> ogra, I should have something for you doc wise by next week.
<ogra> flint, cool 
<flint> ogra, np.
<ogra> flint, i'll really miss you in my cigarette breaks in paris ...
<LaserJock> ogra: I'm not sure what cookbook people are doing exactly, but it is getting worked on, I think
<ogra> ok, i think we handled management at the beginning and community stuff during general sidetracked chatter :)
<ogra> the cookbook developed its own dynamic so i'm confident whats going on is good atm
<flint> ogra, me too.  I will get you next time.
<ogra> so we have bluekuja left, do you want to chair for your topics ? 
<ogra> 7me hands bluekuja the microphone
* cbx33 snatches it and runs away
<bluekuja> yeah, oliver
<ogra> * Edubuntu Testing Team review: membership,TODO,future (AndreaVeri)
* pips1 has finally caught up with the meeting and sends a warm welcome to rodarvus
<bluekuja> well, I want to talk with all of you about the -testing team, to create some guidelines about membership etc
<cbx33> come on bluekuja you have 5 mins
<ogra> about the future, i'd like to point the team to sfllaw, who is our QA specialist 
<JaneW> pips1: lol
<rodarvus> pips1: thanks :)
<ogra> you should work together with him on testing plans and the like
<highvoltage> ogra: you've mentioned it before, I'll get sfllaw to join our next edubuntu meeting. he'll be in paris, right?
<ogra> yep
<bluekuja> ogra: ok great, anyway do you think we need to create some guidelines about the team? creating a working TODO list 
<bluekuja> and more
<ogra> sure, go ahead :)
* cbx33 's hand is up when bluekuja is finished
<rodarvus> we can also tip him him in paris, if necessary ;)
* pips1 's hand is up next after cbx33
<ogra> rodarvus, really ? we have a budget for that ??
<cbx33> I have to go in a while :( meeting soon
<LaserJock> ogra: community donations ;-)
<cbx33> in like 3 minutes :(
<ogra> haha
<cbx33> nice idea LaserJock 
<bluekuja> ogra: well, I'll try to create some guidelines alone, so we can discuss them at the next meeting. Some ideas to start?
<ogra> as i said, sfllaw will be the best person to start with ... i dont see the need for guidelines to join the team or something ...
<LaserJock> bluekuja: I'd talk to the BugSquad (aka sfllaw and #ubuntu-bugs) and check around the wiki
<rodarvus> bluekuja: seriously, I believe approaching sfllaw (on irc) is a great start
* JaneW pops out for a sec
<bluekuja> LaserJock, ogra: perfect 
<ogra> whoops, my baker just arrived, i need to quicky get some bread
<pips1> lol
<cbx33> oooh nice
<bluekuja> yeah, i work with sfflaw with packages too, so it wouldn't be a problem for it
<cbx33> shute i gotta run peeps, meeting time is over for me
<pips1> ogra, that's a proper german. :-D
<cbx33> I'll see you back ing #edubuntu
<cbx33> pips1: feel free to take my hand
<LaserJock> cya cbx33 
<cbx33> :p
<flint> ogra, we call it liquid bread :^)
<pips1> flint hehe
<bluekuja> cbx33: soon we'll have ESA in italian too
<pips1> cbx33 ok, cu
<flint> bluekuja, what is an ESA?
<LaserJock> flint: Edubuntu School Advocacy
<bluekuja> edubuntu school advocacy document
<flint> bluekuja, got a url?
<bluekuja> yeah,http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/index.html
<flint> bluekuja, in italiano e piu bene!
<bluekuja> :D
<rodarvus> pips1: I believe ogra is away for a little while - would you like to go on?
* pips1 looks around for jsgotangco
<cbx33> ESA is also on www.edubuntu.org/UsingEdubuntu
<flint> A marketing document at last!!! bluekuja you done good!!!!!
<bluekuja> we have to say thanks to cbx33
<cbx33> I ported it to there
<bluekuja> that started it
<cbx33> and I'll be deleting it from the wiki
<bluekuja> and had this great idea
<highvoltage> sorry for my quietness the last week. it's been tough, everything seems to happen at the the same time :/
<pips1> rodarvus, well, I just want to ask all you guys who are attenting paris to try to push for another edubuntu summit, with educators, rather than developers-only :)
<bluekuja> np highvoltage 
<flint> highvoltage, Jonathan, how bad?  Death bad?
<LaserJock> pips1: what? devs don't know everything? ;-)
<rodarvus> pips1: sure, I believe we can also push this subject with RichardW, when he arrives next month
<pips1> who of you guys is going to paris?
<highvoltage> flint: no, not quite that bad :)
<flint> pips1, the educators were the meeting in london.
<ogra> re
* LaserJock raises his hand
<pips1> LaserJock :)
<bluekuja> Unfortunately I won't be there
* rodarvus raises his hand
<flint> highvoltage, Girlfriend bad (that is pretty bad...)
* ogra raises his hand as well
<cbx33> my hand 
<highvoltage> flint: slightly worse that that. but the recovery should be quicker.
<cbx33> can I grab it back
<pips1> flint starting rumors again? ;-)
<ogra> pips1, our new manager will surely care for edubuntu summits/sprints
<flint> highvoltage, Jonathan you need a trip to Sao Paulo!
<pips1> ogra right, cool
<highvoltage> flint: indeed, but let's talk about that later. we're just making noise now :)
* pips1 nudges highvoltage to raise his hand
<flint> highvoltage, sorry gotcha...
* cbx33 pushes backin line
<bluekuja> ogra: do you think would be possible to have a it.edubuntu.org pointed to edubuntu page in italian loco team page?
<ogra> i'm not sure about the naming scheme, but i guess its possible
<flint> bluekuja, you may want to talk to Kevin Cole of the dcloco team who already went through that loop sucessfully.
<ogra> highvoltage, has some experience with the webserver and dns things ...
<highvoltage> znarl could organise that, alhtough he seems to be quite busy atm.
<highvoltage> i've been trying to get hold of him for the past 3 days.
<ogra> is it very urgent ? 
<bluekuja> nope
<bluekuja> :)
<bluekuja> it would be a great thing, but I can wait
<ogra> oki, highvoltage would you poke him about that or pint bluekuja in teh right direction  ? 
<flint> bluekuja, seriously, try kcole
<ogra> *point too
<bluekuja> flint: ok, I'll try to ping him
<highvoltage> bluekuja: i'll talk to znarl about it when i get hold of him. i PM'ed him about an hour ago, when he returns he'll get back to me, he's very efficient that way.
* jsgotangco just arrived sorry
<bluekuja> ok perfect, thanks
<highvoltage> ogra: yep
<ogra> jsgotangco, you missed all the fun :P
<flint> bluekuja, kjcole@ubuntu.com
<ogra> highvoltage, thanks a lot
<highvoltage> my pleasure.
<bluekuja> filnt: thanks
<jsgotangco> ogra: sorry it was a long day for me (visa and everything else)
<bluekuja> *flint
<bluekuja> ok that's all
<LaserJock> cbx33: you had something to say?
<pips1> highvoltage, cbx33, should we try to set a time for a edubuntu website irc meet? to nudge things further along?
<ogra> jsgotangco, *you* did miss the fnu, not me ... no need to apologize :)
<ogra> the fun too
<cbx33> pips1: sure
<cbx33> LaserJock: just a little
<ogra> ok, looks like we're done with the meeting then ...
<ogra> anything urgent we missed ?
<highvoltage> pips1: yes, can we do it after paris though? i'm flooded with work atm, and my visa problems didn't help much there either, i nearly lost two days worth of work
<cbx33> nope
<pips1> cbx33 are evenings ok for you? highvoltage seems more available in evenings rather than daytime...
<pips1> highvoltage oic :-/
<cbx33> pips1: yup
<highvoltage> yes, evenings are better for me, generally.
<ogra> so i'd say: meeting adjourned, please move over to #edubuntu to make the room free for xubuntu
<ogra> thanks all
<highvoltage> at the moment my work flows over to evenings too :/
<rodarvus> thank you
* highvoltage moves to #edubuntu
<pips1> thanks
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<chombee> \quit
<scwizard> if the meeting was EST instead of GMT then it'd be in 10 minutes
<scwizard> that's why I logged on to IRC >.<
<Sionide> :)
<Sp4rKy> hi
<Sp4rKy> what's the next date for new ubuntu members candidates ?
<bluekuja> Sp4rKy, community council agenda can help you
<Sp4rKy> bluekuja, i'd just look at it , but i don't see a date for this
<bluekuja> when the cc will decide date, that page will be updated
<bluekuja> :)
<Sp4rKy> k :)
<Sp4rKy> so i just need wait :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-15
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 16 Jun 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 03:00: Documentation Team | 16 Jun 06:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 21 Jun 06:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu | 22 Jun 06:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:heno] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Seveas> heno, don't let Ubugtu bite you ;)
<heno> Seveas: is that a bot or a person?
<Seveas> a bot
* Hobbsee puts a muzzle on Ubugtu, and on second thoughts, puts one on Seveas as well.
<Hobbsee> there, neither can bite now.
<Seveas> heno, to add a meeting: poke the fridge folks
<heno> well, the dev meeting has been cancelled. It's correct on the fridge, but wrong here
<ogra> @topic
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu
<ogra> sad he missed that, else he'd know the next time :)
<Seveas> ogra, I don't want him to overload the fridge so it checks once every hour
<ogra> yep
<ogra> i meant heno with "he" above ;)
<Seveas> hehe
<sfllaw> @schedule 
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 15 Jun 17:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00: Kubuntu
<jjesse> @Agenda Detroit
<jjesse> @schedule Detroit
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 15 Jun 13:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 15 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Documentation Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu Cookbook | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<HedgeMage> hi, all :)
<RobinShepheard> hello
<jjesse> @schedule Detroit
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: Current meeting: Edubuntu Cookbook | 20 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu
<HedgeMage> hi DanielC 
<DanielC> hi :)
<RobinShepheard> hiya DanielC, see you found us okay :-)
<DanielC> Yeah.
<HedgeMage> I'm sorry that an official agenda never made it out, this meeting was a bit last-minute.
<DanielC> What are cookbook meetings anyways? I think they are "help the noob" sessions, is that right?
<RobinShepheard> DanielC: not quite, they are a set of meetings to write the help the noob book
<HedgeMage> DanielC: not quite... cookbook is a project to write the ultimate "beginner's guide" to edubuntu
<HedgeMage> LOL GMTA, RobinShepheard :D
<DanielC> ah
<RobinShepheard> guess I must be psychic :-)
<DanielC> So the purpose is to *write* a cookbook. That makes more sense now.
<HedgeMage> :) yep
<RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: GMTA ??
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: Great Minds Think Alike :)
<RobinShepheard> aahhh
<highvoltage> hi there
<HedgeMage> Anyhow, since we're agenda-less, I'll at least enumerate some talking points, if you have something to add when I'm done, please do so
<HedgeMage> hi highvoltage 
<RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: looks a little thin on the ground with the team
<RobinShepheard> hiya highvoltage
<highvoltage> i'm not part of the cookbook team, but i'll stay up to date with happenings.
<DarkElf109> Same here, heh
* DanielC is lurking
<HedgeMage> Talking points: LaTeX vs. Docbook vote (hopefully swift), discussion of potential re-naming, drafting a new document outline, and divvying up some of the beginnning work.  If we have time, we *might* touch on the edgy+1 publication debate, but that'll most likely get tabled again for later.
<HedgeMage> Anyone want to add anything?
<RobinShepheard> nope, seems to cover most things
<DanielC> DocBook
<HedgeMage> Okay, before we vote on LaTeX vs. Docbook, did anyone miss the mailing list discussion and need a recap?
<DanielC> If you were writing a math textbook I'd say LaTeX.
<DanielC> I did. But I'm not in the team anyways.
<HedgeMage> lol
<HedgeMage> :)
<HedgeMage> well, anyone can vote if they'd like
<HedgeMage> we're pretty laid-back at this point
<HedgeMage> okay... I'm voting Docbook
<DanielC> :-)
<HedgeMage> others?
<DanielC> DocBook has a much lower barrier to entry and is more apt for non-mathematical documentation.
<RobinShepheard> well I don't know much about either but following the discussion docbooks seems to make most sense
<HedgeMage> anybody else want to register a vote before it's closed?
<HedgeMage> Okay, then, we're going with docbook
<DanielC> That was easy...
<HedgeMage> yep :)
<RobinShepheard> easier than last meet
<HedgeMage> I think I was the biggest LaTeX advocate, but the discussion on the mailing list turned me around
<HedgeMage> Anyhow, on to the re-naming question... I agree with last meeting's observation that "cookbook" doesn't quite accurately describe this project any more... my recommendation is to start a wiki page for naming suggestions and vote on it at the next meeting (probably about a month from now)
<RobinShepheard> I have to say that suggestion sounds fair to me
<RobinShepheard> I obviously like my seggestion best but ... :)
<HedgeMage> hehe :)
<HedgeMage> Okay, now for the hard part, new document outline
<HedgeMage> since we have so few people here, I'd like to consider this a "working draft" of sorts... we can always modify later if needed
<RobinShepheard> makes sense
<HedgeMage> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters  <--- This is our last chapter outline, you'll probably want it open for reference.
<pygi> hey people
<pygi> sorry for being so late
<HedgeMage> np
<HedgeMage> pygi: we voted in favor of docbook, and decided to start a wiki page to suggest new titles for cookbook to be voted on at our next meeting
<HedgeMage> pygi: that's all you missed so far
<HedgeMage> that and:
<HedgeMage> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters  <--- This is our last chapter outline, you'll probably want it open for reference.
<HedgeMage> as we're about to talk about a new outline
<pygi> HedgeMage, oki, please continue
<HedgeMage> Suggestions from last meeting included: including a small "troubleshooting" section at the end of each applicable chapter, adding a hardware setup and basic networking chapter (or chapters), expanding the app descriptions to include examples of each app's use in a classroom setting, and rarranging the LTSP and stand-alone install parts into three sections each: pre-install, install, and post-install, absorbing some of the "shiny thing
<HedgeMage> hmm... that was long, did it get truncated?
<RobinShepheard> I got up to shiny thin
<DanielC> Last I saw was "shiny thing"
<HedgeMage> ...absorbing some of the "shiny things" content into the appropriate post-install sections
<devil786> yeah me too
<RobinShepheard> seems to sum up the comments last meeting fairly well
<HedgeMage> anyone have any comments on any of that? like those suggestions? dislike them? want to steal a piece of my strawberry shortcake? :P
<RobinShepheard> strawberry shortcake....mmmmmm nice
<HedgeMage> homemade :)
* RobinShepheard is getting jealous
<RobinShepheard> how do you want to create the new layout, are we going to create a new page and edit now??
<HedgeMage> IMHO, they all sound like good ideas, and the "troubleshooting" suggestion brings up something else I'd like to do: come up with some kind of working template or standard for individual chapters
* RobinShepheard trys to take mind off shortcake :)
<RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: go on, what sort of template did you have in mind
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: basically just some kind of standard way of making sure we're consistent with headings, etc, and making sure things like the troubleshooting section aren't forgotten
* drazak already stole a piece of the shortcake
<HedgeMage> hi EmxBA :)
<EmxBA> hi
<RobinShepheard> well I can't argue with that, makes sense
<EmxBA> i am a bit late
<EmxBA> :)
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: if you want an update on what you missed, /msg me or pygi
<EmxBA> what are you currently talking about, HedgeMage?
<HedgeMage> that way we won't clog the chan like I did last time
<EmxBA> ok
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: new outline and some sort of spec or template on how to put together a chapter.
<RobinShepheard> so with the apps say, start with a description of the app then what it can do and then how to do it for example??
<EmxBA> can i help on cookbook?
<EmxBA> hi, highvoltage
<EmxBA> hi, RobinShepheard, nice to see you
<RobinShepheard> hiya EmxBA
<highvoltage> hey EmxBA!
<RobinShepheard> good to see you too
<EmxBA> :)
<EmxBA> tnx
<RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: would it be worth finishing each basic chapter with a find more info here section with say links and books in
<HedgeMage> Hmmm... or maybe put them throughout the chapter and summarize in some organized manner at the end of the book?
<HedgeMage> that's a good idea
<EmxBA> all of that should be very simple and understandable, right?
* HedgeMage nods
<HedgeMage> okay, referencing the old outline...
<RobinShepheard> yeah that would make sense dotting them throughout but they might not read the entire chapter and get sidetracked and miss bits
<HedgeMage> I'd say Part 1 is pretty good as-is (outline-wise)
<HedgeMage> any comments on Part 1 ?
<RobinShepheard> none from me
<HedgeMage> okay, then, as we move on to Part 2, I'm going to reference parts and chapters as they are on the old outline... the segments inside parts and outside chapters (the pre install and post we talked about) will be referred to as "sections" for the time being, just for clarity's sake
<RobinShepheard> okay
<EmxBA> ok for me
<HedgeMage> So, Part 2 will now have 3 sections: Pre-Install, Install, and Post-Install... sound good?
<EmxBA> nice
<RobinShepheard> would you include the intro to computer networks and things in pre-install??
<EmxBA> now it has  Indroduction, requirements, installation, administration...
<RobinShepheard> or would it make sense to have that as a seperate section with just the intro to networking and thinclients in
<EmxBA> shouldn't we have administration part in new, Post-Install section
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: that's a tough one... I'd definitely put a "hardware set-up" section at the beginning of the pre-install section...
<RobinShepheard> agreed but wouldn't this be prior to that
<HedgeMage> ...but the networking basics bit might better go in a seperate part (maybe the end of part 1?) with info on how to choose LTSP vs. standalone
<RobinShepheard> I was jus ttyping much the same thing I reckon at the end of section 1
<HedgeMage> :)
<EmxBA> HedgeMage, RobinShepheard, be aware that I am leaving in about 30 minutes, but I want to contribute, I am just waiting for this conversation to ends
<HedgeMage> okay, now would "basic networking" and "chosing LTSP or standalone" be one chapter or two seperate ones?
<EmxBA> why is https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters/AboutBook locked
<EmxBA> ?
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: np, can you /msg me an email address so I can update you if we run late?
<EmxBA> Edubuntu is written lower case
<EmxBA> HedgeMage: you have my mail on my wiki page, ok
<EmxBA> can i just get yours?
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: HedgeMage@binaryredneck.net
<EmxBA> ok
<EmxBA> and your real name is?
<EmxBA> just want to know?
<HedgeMage> susan :)
<EmxBA> ok
<EmxBA> I am Emir :)
<RobinShepheard> I would think 2 chapters, depending on how long you want them
* HedgeMage nods
<HedgeMage> sounds good
<RobinShepheard> 'networking made simple' and 'computer options'
<RobinShepheard> well maybe
<HedgeMage> Maybe "Networking Basics" and "Choosing an Install Type" ??
<RobinShepheard> definately more professional
<RobinShepheard> you win
<HedgeMage> hehe
<EmxBA> in chapter two, administration and security should be merged into post-install (maybe post-install configuration and etc.)
<EmxBA> do you agree?
<HedgeMage> Okay, back to Part 2
<RobinShepheard> yeah I agree with that
<pygi> EmxBA, please be quiet
<pygi> HedgeMage is leading the meeting
<EmxBA> pygi, OK, I'll calm down :)
<HedgeMage> hehe :)
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: at least youre excited :D
<HedgeMage> intro and hardware reqs would be pre-install, install would go in install...
<EmxBA> HedgeMage: well, not really excited, I am just very interested in Edubuntu Cookbook
<HedgeMage> pretty much everything else would be "post install"
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: that's a good thing! :D
<pygi> EmxBA, just be shhh :)
* cbx33 sends his apologies
<cbx33> I'm late :(
<RobinShepheard> yeah I reckon that makes sense  (the layout that is)
<HedgeMage> cbx33: np if you need to be updated on what you miss, please grab someone via /msg :)
<EmxBA> pygi, if you are quiet, why should I be? I think you wanted to calm me down, not to be so excited :)
<HedgeMage> question: should the "security" chapter go in install or post-install?
<EmxBA> post-install, or "configuration"
<RobinShepheard> I would say post install because you don't really set any security settings during install
<DanielC> What does security cover? My first reaction is post-install.
<HedgeMage> DanielC: well, it's not written yet, but it should have things to check in LTSP.conf and so on
<DanielC> post
<EmxBA> I suggest we speak few words about Edubuntu on laptops in "Hardware requirements" or "Post-install" in part 2
<EmxBA> ok?
<HedgeMage> I'm tempted to put it in install because you really shouldn't let people on the system without reading that stuff, OTOH it probably technically belongs in "post"
* HedgeMage ponders
<RobinShepheard> difficult call
<DanielC> good point
<EmxBA> i would be glad to write a page about Edubuntu on laptops
<HedgeMage> Anyone have any thoughts either way?
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: covering what, for example?
<RobinShepheard> if you broke install up into 2 chapters physical install and polishing configuration
<RobinShepheard> that may cover it
<DanielC> Technically I'm confident it is "post". But if we put it there does that mean some people won't read it?
<RobinShepheard> maybe DanielC
<HedgeMage> that's what I'm afraid of 
<EmxBA> HedgeMage: i would like to explain how nice Edubuntu works on laptops (in my case, X, function keys, special keys, wireless , everything works), and to explain setting up some parts of these (maybe X or wireless) on laptops if it doesn't work, unlike me
* DanielC thinks
<cbx33> hmm
<cbx33> it is tricky to get the balance right
<cbx33> I suppose really it depends on how large the sections are going to be
<cbx33> in a lot of ways
<DanielC> I wish we could have two sections called "critical stuff" and "nice to do stuff"; then critical could have a "post install" sub-section.
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: interesting... we'll have to figure out where to put it
<cbx33> I mean
<HedgeMage> DanielC: That might make the organization too cluttered, though
<EmxBA> cbx33: if you were talking to me, I would really spend a lot of time for writing a text about laptop configuration
<cbx33> this book, is this time going to be much more of a book
<EmxBA> anyway, I am chatting with you right now on a laptop :)
<cbx33> in that it should be a reference
<DanielC> HedgeMage: Yes, so I wouldn't suggest it as stated. Just speaking out-loud really.
<RobinShepheard> EmxBA: so am I
<cbx33> as well as having setup
<DanielC> thinking out loud :)
* DanielC gets English expressions wrong some times ;-)
<EmxBA> RobinShepheard: what?
<RobinShepheard> could we put it under subheadings in the main installation chapter
<RobinShepheard> EmxBA: Dell latitude D600
<EmxBA> ok
<EmxBA> i have FSC Amilo 
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: could work.... but which install?  standalone probably, since 99% of laptops will be done that way.
<EmxBA> L6825
<DanielC> HedgeMage: Maybe two post-install sections: "post install (critical)" and "post install (polish)". Or something along those lines.
<RobinShepheard> yeah, that would be the most sensible HedgeMage
<EmxBA> HedgeMage: not every laptop; on my friends laptop function keys don't work, he always get resolution 640x480 and his wireless card requires recompiled kernel
<EmxBA> and in few days he fixed all of that by manually editing configuration files :)
<RobinShepheard> DanielC: you could include it in the main install by doing sub sections on physical and config
<EmxBA> HedgeMage: what do you think about that?
<HedgeMage> since hardware is already in pre-install I think that would confuse things.
<HedgeMage> for now, let's leave security in post-install and make sure to warn of its importance at the end of the install chapter
<HedgeMage> we can change that later if needed.
<EmxBA> HedgeMage: then i suggest we make special page for laptops and put it somewhere later
<EmxBA> when we find out appropriate chapter for that, OK?
<HedgeMage> ok
<HedgeMage> part 3 will largely be a mirror of part 2's organization, unless anyone has comments about why we should consider doing it differently
<EmxBA> so i wil write it, ok? any help would be nice (this counts you too, RobinShepheard ) :)
<HedgeMage> okay, on to part 4 and "shiny things"
<HedgeMage> a lot of what was in "shiny things" (printing, security updates, etc) has been moved to the two post-install sections
<HedgeMage> so, we can merge the rest into part 4
<HedgeMage> we'll need to rename part 4, however
<HedgeMage> thoughts?
<RobinShepheard> I like the using edubuntu name to be honest
<RobinShepheard> why change it
<RobinShepheard> leave it all as that in my opinion
<EmxBA> Edubuntu is really ok
<EmxBA> Schoolubuntu or studentubuntu sounds bad :)
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: we weren't talking about renaming Edubuntu, we're talking about renaming part IV (4) of the cookbook
<HedgeMage> anyhow, "using edubuntu" can stay then since I don't have a better idea either :)
<HedgeMage> Okay, I'll volunteer to have the new outline on the wiki within the next 24 hours.
<RobinShepheard> well it sums up the chapter nicely as it will go into using all the software and things
<EmxBA> HedgeMage: oh, sorry, didn't understand
<HedgeMage> so everyone can see it.
* EmxBA is ashamed :)
<HedgeMage> EmxBA: np, mistakes happen
<EmxBA> i know :)
<EmxBA> just continue
<RobinShepheard> ok, anything you would like me to do HedgeMage??
<HedgeMage> we're running out of time, so if anyone has comments on the chapter spec, please email the edubuntu-devel list and pygi and I will have it when we hack out a spec.
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: once we wrap up here, can you post meeting minutes to edubuntu-devel for me?
<RobinShepheard> ok I reckon I can manage that
<HedgeMage> awesome!
<pygi> HedgeMage, thanks for leading the meeting
<HedgeMage> pygi and I will also get with the ubuntu doc people and get ahold of an SVN repo.
<pygi> you did it even better then me :)
<RobinShepheard> the new wiki page, will that be the same address as the old one??
<HedgeMage> if you want an email when we post the SVN info to the wiki, /msg me your email address and I will send you one
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: no, but I'll link to it from https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu  (which also doesn't exist atm)
<RobinShepheard> ok
<HedgeMage> pygi: heh, thanks, you do a good job too!
<pygi> HedgeMage, nah, ofcourse I don't :P
<HedgeMage> Anyone have anything else before we close the meeting?
<RobinShepheard> I will list the link in the email minutes
<HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: thanks!
<RobinShepheard> no problem
<HedgeMage> going once
<HedgeMage> going twice...
<pygi> sold
<pygi> :)
<RobinShepheard> lol
<HedgeMage> Meeting over :D
* HedgeMage buys pygi 
* pygi escapes :P
<HedgeMage> Thanks everyone for showing up... please subscribe to edubuntu-devel if you haven't already so you can keep up on between-meeting discussions and the date of the next meeting
<RobinShepheard> thank you for the hosting of the meeting
* HedgeMage waves
<HedgeMage> np :)
* RobinShepheard waves back
<Spec> I hope they don't actually hack out a spec :-/
<pygi> Spec, heh, why is that? :P
<EmxB1> sorry
<EmxB1> my connection blew out
<EmxBA> :( what happened in last few minutes?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-16
<kbrooks> see you later
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:bhuvan_] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Docteam meeting | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
<lukketto> when the next meeting to become "member"?
<azeem> lukketto: AFAIK the next community council meeting should be soon, but no time has been set yet
<azeem> but I haven't followed closely
<lukketto> azeem: thank you! I'll be tuned ;)
<jenda> I've been following closely, but it hasn't helped much :)
<Seveas> azeem, probably in 2 weeks
<Seveas> next week is the paris conference
<azeem> was there a CC meeting this week?
<jjesse> @schedule detroit
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 20 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu
<klepas> jjesse: that's nice :)
<klepas> @schedule Sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 21 Jun 06:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu | 22 Jun 06:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 07:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu
<bhuvan> ding, time to start ?
<LaserJock> wow, punctual
<bhuvan> let's try to be punctual :)
<ogra> whats going on? there is nothing scheduled
<jjesse> doc team meeting
<bhuvan> ogra: we have scheduled doc team meeting, but it was not updated in the topic ...
<jjesse> the schedule got messed up, the channel and fridge had it for yesterday, when today is the real time
<ogra> ah
<ogra> i remember :)
<LaserJock> I thought it was yesterday too
<highvoltage> heh. they've probably said 'ubuntu' 10 times on the news tonight :)
<ogra> highvoltage, not here :/
<highvoltage> (sorry, meant for other channel)
<bhuvan> LaserJock: no
<nixternal> woo
<nixternal> almost missed it
<bhuvan> let's start. first: Has everyone merged any changes made to the branch back to trunk for their documents?
<jjesse> can we wait to make sure mdke is here?
<bhuvan> ok, np
<LaserJock> bhuvan: I'm guessing no
<jjesse> looks like he isn't goign to make it
<bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
<jjesse> bhuvan: yes i have merged some changes back into branches for the releasenotes for bug #48525
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 48525 in kubuntu-docs "Problems with Dapper Release Notes for Kubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48525
<LaserJock> bah, why can mdke never make the meetings? we need to schedule him better ;-)
<jjesse> however i'm not done making all of the changes
<bhuvan> ok
<LaserJock> packaging guide merge is ready to commit, I was just waiting for mdke to merge the common stuff
<bhuvan> ok
<jjesse> bhuvan: the changes have been both made in trunk/kubuntu and also branches/dapper/kubuntu
<bhuvan> ok, so henceforth we should make changes only in trunk?
<jjesse> bhuvan: correct
<bhuvan> cool
<LaserJock> yeah, unless we have some weird thing that should go in -updates
<jjesse> especially as we build edgy documents and then at the end of things we wil merge trunk to branches/edgy
<bhuvan> yeah ok
<jjesse> +1 LaserJock
<bhuvan> jjesse: i guess we have long way to go to creat branches/edgy?
<LaserJock> doc string freeze
<jjesse> when doc freeze comes we create branches/edgy
<jjesse> 4 months
<bhuvan> oh ok
<jjesse> actually less then that :)
<LaserJock> we'll see next week :-)
<bhuvan> when is edgy scheduled to release (if i'm ignorant) ?
<nixternal> october
<bhuvan> ok
<LaserJock> bhuvan: the release schedule will be done next week at the dev summit
<nixternal> falls in line with the every 6 months
<jjesse> gets us bac on schedule for the 6 months after the delay
<jjesse> whats' the next point in the agenda?
<LaserJock> new docs
<bhuvan> next: New documents for EdgyEft
<nixternal> NEW DOCUMENTS FOR EDGY EFT
<nixternal> hehe
<bhuvan> 1) Ubuntu Reference Manual
<bhuvan> any opinion about adding this manual for ubuntu?
<LaserJock> what does it do?
<jjesse> what exactly will this manual be?  how will it defer from the DesktopGuide?
<LaserJock> we need a spec or something?
<jjesse> i would assume?
<LaserJock> whose baby is it?
<bhuvan> LaserJock: spec is not ready. but the intention is to make sure user is able to resolve most of his issues using this manual. it covers basics
<bhuvan> LaserJock: it's (will be) mine!
<jjesse> how does that differ from the Desktop Guide?
<bhuvan> jjesse: here we may cover how to install (basics), how to upgrade, how to configure custom apt repo, some server apps. finer specifics may be covered in specialised manuals like desktop guide, server guide, etc.
<jjesse> bhuvan: seems like a lot of overlap
<LaserJock> troubleshooting?
<bhuvan> jjesse: may be how to add a cron job
<bhuvan> jjesse: overlap with existing ones?
<bhuvan> LaserJock: you want to add that section?
<jjesse> bhuvan: yes overlap with what the desktop guide can and should show
<bhuvan> jjesse: i want this manual to the superset and all other documents may be derived from it. it should be the one stop document for almost all user requirements. for finer details, the users can refere specialized documents/manuals
<bhuvan> it's just a thought. unsure how relevant/useful it will be
<jjesse> then we need to make a Kubuntu one as well
<bhuvan> jjesse: definitely :)
<nixternal> thats where i can help out if needed since i use Kubuntu and know my ways around KDE...i tend to loose it, or get lost in gnome ;)
<LaserJock> hmm, I think something more like an index of what we have
<LaserJock> ?
<jjesse> LaserJock: i wonder if that would be better on what mdke is suggesting about reording yelp
<bhuvan> i guess almost all distribution (redhat, gentoo, debian) have such kind of document. so i guess we should have one
<LaserJock> jjesse: that's what I was thiinking
<nixternal> it could be universal, as pretty much what you do with Ubuntu you can do with Kubuntu and so forth, you would have to get specific when it comes down to KDE/GTK specific apps
<jjesse> bhuvan: i think we need a more/better defined spec of it before i can figure out why i would use it as a user
<jjesse> maybe some further discussion on the mailing lists?
<jjesse> with links to other docs of similar sort
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I agree
<bhuvan> jjesse: point. it adds value only when we have defined spec. i guess, i can prepare the spec so we can discuss either in mailing list/irc
<LaserJock> I think a nice indexing type page (one for all derivatives) that makes it easy for a user to find what they want in the existing docs
<LaserJock> would be nice :-)
<jjesse> which i think mdke is aruging for
<LaserJock> kinda, yeah
<bhuvan> LaserJock: you are more refering to site map kind of document. i guess, reference manual may not be for that
<LaserJock> kind of like a site map, but a little more to it
<bhuvan> yeah
<LaserJock> bhuvan: I'd suggest making a spec with an outline and links to other like docs as jjesse has said. I'm just not clear on what you are proposing
<bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
<LaserJock> and how it integrates with our docs, etc.
<bhuvan> ok
<LaserJock> I think I like the idea, I just need to see more and we should tweak it up nice :-)
<bhuvan> yeah ok and it should be presented well :)
<jjesse> +1 laserjock
<bhuvan> ok, good plan. shall we move to next topic ?
<LaserJock> sure
<bhuvan> Kubuntu Docs ([JonathanJesse] )
<bhuvan> jjesse: do you like to propose new documents for kubuntu?
<nixternal> jjesse: this is along the lines of what kmon and Riddell referred to?
<LaserJock> jjesse: ok so what's new, the switching from windows?
<jjesse> sorry phonecall
<nixternal> my opinion, as well as many other Kubuntu'ers, is that the documentation is Ubuntu sided, and it seems as if Kubuntu is a back burner project..i think users would like to see a little more kubuntu specific documentation
<nixternal> haha jjesse me too..my sister wouldn't stop talking
<jjesse> nixternal what are you refering to riddell talkign about?
<LaserJock> nixternal: I've been hearing that kind of thing from the dev side as well
<nixternal> about the Kubuntu documentation that was brought up during the Kubuntu Meeting a week or so ago
<jjesse> nixternal:  ah yes
<jjesse> well currently the spec KubuntuDocs/Edgy refer to the current docs plus a SwitchingFromWindows
<jjesse> plus there is no guide for any of adept programs which i'm writing
<nixternal> i know kmon had proposed a kubuntu doc/wiki team at their meeting...and that is why i was here to help
<jjesse> ah
<LaserJock> bah, why do that?
<jjesse> nixternal: kmon and I spoke that we would not seperate the kubuntu users from ubuntu-doc
<nixternal> im guessing they feel left out ;)
<jjesse> we use the same tools, the same repository, the same site, help.ubuntu.com/doc.ubuntu.com etc
<nixternal> i agree jjesse..as i think that goes against the Ubuntu meaning for one...w/o Ubuntu there would be no Kubuntu
<bhuvan> nixternal: can you elaborate ?
<jjesse> bhuvan: it goes back to a lot of the documentation/work is very ubuntu specific
<LaserJock> yeah, because people work on what they use
<jjesse> for example in the Official Ubuntu Book, there is only one chapter dedicated to Kubuntu (which I wrote) but the rest of the book is dedicated to ubuntu
<bhuvan> jjesse: wont it be solved if we have enough kubuntu documenters
<nixternal> if you look at wiki documentation/howto's and what not, they all seem to lean towards Ubuntu...of course most of these articles will also work with Kubuntu
<nixternal> i would love to get involved with some Kubuntu documentation..that is why i was trying to join the DocTeam
<LaserJock> and there is no reason you can't
<jjesse> bhuvan: yes it would help, however most of the calls for help that have been placed there has been no response
<jjesse> nixternal and we would love to have you help out with thedocs
<nixternal> im not a coder..and i just want to help out..plus i have done documentation previously
<nixternal> thx jjesse
<bhuvan> jjesse: as LaserJock say they work on what they use.
<jjesse> if you want to help out with the dekstop guide, release notes, about kubuntu etc that is great
<bhuvan> nixternal: great
<jjesse> or if you want to write your document that needs help that would be perfect
<jjesse> nixternal: just add it to the spec :)
<nixternal> spec link that you are referring to
<nixternal> or link spec rather ;)
<jjesse> http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDocs/Edgy
<bhuvan> imo, if we remove gnome/kde everything is just one. so, the help system is available for all those applications in ubuntu/kubuntu form. so, why do we have hard feeling (if we have one)?
<nixternal> arg..lol...looking at it already
<nixternal> i can come up with something im sure
<jjesse> nixternal: that is awesome
<nixternal> i can work with kmon and Riddell to see what they may like to see
<jjesse> nixternal: can you CC me on emails to them :)
<nixternal> sure can
<bhuvan> nixternal: and may be to ubuntu-doc mailing list? 
<jjesse> yeah
<nixternal> no problem
<jjesse> instead of cc me just cc ubuntu-doc :)
<nixternal> got it
<LaserJock> jjesse: ok, so is this switching to windows doc Kubuntu specific? could we turn it into a generic doc?
<jjesse> LaserJock: well i think it might become like the DesktopGuide
<nixternal> switching to windows?  is that backwards?
<jjesse> one for Ubuntu and one for Kubuntu
<nixternal> don't we want switching from windows ;)
<jjesse> just because there are a lot of things that are different
<jjesse> and it should be switching from windows
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> lol, sorry
<nixternal> i think that would have been a bad marketing decision ;D
<LaserJock> hehe
<jjesse> anyways the wiki page SwitchingFrom Windows is quite big and there is a lot ubuntu specific stuff on it
<jjesse> i think someone, and maybe nixternal would like to create it :)  should take a large portion of it and kubuntuize it
<nixternal> i can take a look and come up with some Kubuntu ideas for it if you would like
<bhuvan> imo, it should be more generic (applicable to both ubuntu/kubuntu) than being specific to kubuntu :)
<LaserJock> yeah, I just wondered if it was DE specifc enough to need 2 docs
<bhuvan> 2 docs =  2 identical docs
<jjesse> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/SwitchingFromWindows
<bhuvan> imo, in long run it may be difficult to maintain and keep them up-to-date and sync with each other
<jjesse> agreed bhuvan, i think that is the problem we ran into w/ the desktop guide
<nixternal> maybe a default page "SwitchingFromWindows" with other pages linked to Ubuntu > Kubuntu  and so forth
<nixternal> or like bhuvan said, make it generic
<jjesse> if we create the document, we can get it linked off of help.ubuntu.com and also get included in the DesktopCD
<LaserJock> what I'd like to see is something where you write it as generically as possible and then have little notes or something where it is DE specifc
<nixternal> although, it could be generic...alot of it actually...with some differences when it comes to graphical software installations via synaptics or ept
<bhuvan> jjesse, imo we should have one document as we currently have (server guide, packaging guide). we can feel free to ship two copies seperately, may be one in ubuntu-docs and one in kubuntu-docs
<jjesse> ok, i'll start a thread on the mailing list where we can discuss in further detail
<LaserJock> bhuvan: yes, ideally, the point is if we can get the info to the user we need doing it generically
<bhuvan> jjesse: ok
<LaserJock> some things do depend on the DE
<bhuvan> yeah
<bhuvan> ok, now, shall we move to next topic ?
<LaserJock> I have one doc
<bhuvan> yeah?
<LaserJock> I didn't put it on the agenda
<jjesse> the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> and I don't know that I'll be doing it in edgy
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuScriptingDoc
<bhuvan> go ahead
<LaserJock> jjesse: now, that one isn't new anymore ;-)
<jjesse> grin
<LaserJock> my idea was to have a simple intro to Python/Bash scripting and with cookbook style code snippets (contributed by the community) for every day user things
<nixternal> i like that
<LaserJock> it is very brain dump at this point, but here is my rationale
<jjesse> LaserJock: that sounds pretty cool
<LaserJock> 1) Ubuntu has been called a Python-centric distro
<LaserJock> but we really don't have any docs that show it (we do ship Dive into Python)
* bhuvan is loving python these days
* nixternal is learning it ;)
<LaserJock> 2) Even fairly new users need to do automated tasks
<nixternal> i can print 5+6 to the screen ;)
<LaserJock> rename .mpg/.ogg based on id tags
<LaserJock> 3) It give a change for kids (and adults of course :-) ) to get into programming in an easy way
<jjesse> LaserJock +1 for me
<jjesse> i'd go ahead and create it
<LaserJock> so it's more of an Python/Bash evangelizing doc than a Course in Computer Science ;-)
<nixternal> +1 here big time
<nixternal> great spec imho
<bhuvan> LaserJock, but how well it is useful while tons of documents are already available for python
<Spec> indeed
<LaserJock> bhuvan: because it is Python on Ubuntu, and it isn't a Python Reference/Tutuorial
<nixternal> i could really use something like that considering im just now getting into the programming part of computers after stopping many many years ago...
<bhuvan> LaserJock: can you show an example?
<LaserJock> bhuvan: the one I gave was renaming .mp3s based on id tags
<LaserJock> it takes about 10 lines in python
<bhuvan> ok, so are we going to include the script and demonstrate the user using a document?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> the idea would be similar to Python Cookbook
<LaserJock> but more user focused
<bhuvan> LaserJock, great idea. but do you think other distro docteam prepare these kind of documents?
<LaserJock> so get little scripts from people (we can have a "call for scripts" on the forums, ML, etc.) and then explain Python by explaining what the script does
<LaserJock> bhuvan: I don't really know
<LaserJock> bhuvan: I doubt it
<bhuvan> LaserJock: good we didnt choose perl and we may end up shipping the dependent module along with the document ! 
<LaserJock> just getting people interested in Python by showing, "heah, you don't have to write a 10,000 line GUI app to use this"
<LaserJock> my main point is, Python is great, and we ship lots of Python stuff, let's show users how to use it a bit, get them interested
<bhuvan> LaserJock: definitely we have point to prove. may be, we can list of couple of frequent programming needs in day to day user/developer need and document it in a form to reach them effectively
<bhuvan> LaserJock, i'm not fully inclined including as part of document. But it is worth discussing with others through mailing list. so please ...
<jjesse> what is the next topic?
<nixternal> seems as if the next topic is mdke specific concerning his "Turn the help system upsidedown and make it more useful" proposal
<LaserJock> yeah, this is sweet
<bhuvan> nixternal, yeah thanks
<bhuvan> i have two questions from that document. 1) what does he refer as help system (d.u.c or h.u.c or w.u.c) 2) what does he refer as upstream document
<LaserJock> 1) yelp or khelpcenter? 2) gnome/kde
<jjesse> i think he referes to help.ubuntu.com
<bhuvan> 1) +1 jjesse
<nixternal> maybe we should hold this to the end just in case he makes it home and comes in here...or hold it off until we can speak with him
<DonSc> "a possible way to go might be to bin the upstream categorisation that currently forms the front page of the help system"
<LaserJock> what he's talking about it taking gnome/kde doc and melding them with our docs
<jjesse> i wish he wa here :)
<LaserJock> and then we have a listing (like he has) of areas a user would want to go to
<DonSc> I read it as reforming the Yelp front page (FWIW)
<LaserJock> yes
<bhuvan> DonSc: me too come to that conclusion after reading point 1 in advantages section
<LaserJock> I think the idea is to move away from doc specific documentation
<LaserJock> like you click on Packaging Guide or Desktop Guide
<jjesse> explain doc specific documentation?
<bhuvan> infact i never use 2nd half 
<DonSc> "Project Mallard"!!!!1111!!one1!!!(tm)
<LaserJock> so the documentation is centered around those areas
<LaserJock> so I don't write the Packaging Guide so much as add to the "Contributing to Ubuntu" section
<jjesse> intersting
<bhuvan> if we include those new sections, where does the existing ones go?
<LaserJock> "Using your desktop" would have stuff from DG but also Gnome/KDE docs, Offical book, etc
<LaserJock> bhuvan: away!
<jjesse> and how do we maintain it in svn?
<LaserJock> hehe, that's a good question :-)
<bhuvan> LaserJock: :) i'm unsure if he mean it :) :)
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> wrong button?
<bhuvan> may be
<LaserJock> bhuvan: he wan't the yelp home page to look like what he had
<nixternal> hehe
<bhuvan> LaserJock: yeah, but where do we place existing ones and how do we draw line between new and existing ones?
<LaserJock> there won't be existing ones
<LaserJock> that's the point
<DonSc> lot of work
<LaserJock> yelp will *only* have those items
<bhuvan> LaserJock, each of those topics are excellent and need to be placed but where and at the cost of what?
<LaserJock> those items are the help system
<DonSc> Really, really, look into Mallard
<LaserJock> the cost is a heck of a lot of work
<LaserJock> DonSc: I think that might be in the plan
<LaserJock> not sure though
<bhuvan> LaserJock, not just that at the cost of existing ones
<DonSc> Basically along the same lines
<LaserJock> bhuvan: no, they are a part of the new system
<bhuvan> LaserJock: you mean they will be part of new system, but they wont be placed in front page?
<LaserJock> bah, no
<LaserJock> it won't say 
<LaserJock> "Desktop Guide"
<LaserJock> the desktop guide content will be in the relevent areas
<bhuvan> oh ok
<LaserJock> along with the upstream content
<LaserJock> Offical book sections, etc.
<LaserJock> see the italicized stuff next to the items
<bhuvan> so, it will be like segregating existing ones and forming these documents. once we develop all these documents, we may remove existing ones?
<LaserJock> well, I don't know that there an plan, but I would think the existing doc contents get swallowed up into the new help system
<LaserJock> *is a plan
<LaserJock> basically, the problem is that the current yelp (and I think KDE has a similar problem) is a mess
<LaserJock> users don't know where to go
<bhuvan> ok
<DonSc> LaserJock: we're working on a new TOC for 2.16
<LaserJock> they never get to things they should, a lot of that is because we don't integrate into the upstream docs
<DonSc> As a stopgap until Mallard arives
<LaserJock> DonSc: ah, interesting
* bhuvan have added UbuntuScriptingDoc to agenda
<LaserJock> bhuvan: hehe, thanks
<LaserJock> for instance, Dive into Python
<DonSc> Need to look into new categories though
<nixternal> wb jjesse
<jjesse> sorry needed to restart
<nixternal> hehe
<jjesse> vmware locked on me
<bhuvan> LaserJock: what's your opinion about this proposal?
<bhuvan> and jjesse: your opinion?
<LaserJock> mdke's?
<jjesse> don't have one right now, but i like the way things are setup right now :)
<bhuvan> if we go ahead with this plan, how do we cater kubuntu needs? are we going to span that many kubuntu copies?
<nixternal> my opinion even though im not officially a member > i don't know about turning it upside down, however making it more useful is good, but making the entire system EASIER for a beginner is the biggest approvement I think needed
<nixternal> improvement
<jjesse> agreed with bhuvan
<bhuvan> nixternal: to give your opinion, you need not be a member. so feel free. you are doing good
<nixternal> whew..thx ;)
<LaserJock> my opinion is this, I think the idea is great and we need to head in that direction, but it will take a lot of hard work and *really* good communication with upstreams, etc.
<LaserJock> so if we can do it, wonderful
<nixternal> i see where bhuvan is coming from...  you would need 4 introductions for instance > Ubuntu / Kubuntu / Edubuntu / Xubuntu and more when new distro's come available
<jjesse> supported instances
<LaserJock> nixternal: each of those ships there own -docs anyway
<nixternal> true
<bhuvan> LaserJock: not yet i guess
<LaserJock> not yet what?
<bhuvan> i guess, each of those distro dont ship theire own -docs right now
<jjesse> just kubuntu-docs and ubuntu-docs
<jjesse> so far
<bhuvan> jjesse: yes
<bhuvan> so as mdke stated in line 2, we should do something adventurous this release. in that line it's an excellent move
<LaserJock> bhuvan: yes they do
<LaserJock> jjesse: no
<bhuvan> LaserJock: is it? where do you see?
<LaserJock> edubuntu and xubuntu shipped their own for Dapper, Edubuntu I'm sure of
<LaserJock> yeah, they are both there
<LaserJock> all the derivatives ship -docs
<bhuvan> LaserJock: yeah i see relevant launchpad projects
<LaserJock> anyway
<bhuvan> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/xubuntu-docs
<bhuvan> fine
<LaserJock> I believe users are not using the help systems effectively
<bhuvan> so, atleast we conclude we can move forward in this direction. am i right?
<LaserJock> heck, I'm not even using them effectavly
<jjesse> bhuvan: as long as we take into account the different distros
<LaserJock> bhuvan: well, there are a lot of other issues, translations, how to actually merge upstream, etc.
<bhuvan> jjesse: it has to be discussed
<bhuvan> LaserJock: it's the path right. so, we must take care
<LaserJock> I do think it is the right path
<bhuvan> see the last point. 'Some hard work required' :)
<LaserJock> the user shouldn't have to figure out what is Ubuntu and what is Upstream
<LaserJock> they should just think "What do I want help about" and that's it
<nixternal> +1 ^^
<jjesse> i would be intersted in further discussion
<bhuvan> anyhow, we still have two questions unanswered: 1) action plan and what will be the status of existing ones and how it will be organised in svn 2) for other distros
<LaserJock> existing docs are turned into the new ones
<LaserJock> we might have to ditch svn I don't know
<bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
<bhuvan> ditch svn?
* bhuvan is from collabnet -- official svn sponsor :)
<LaserJock> well, it could be that possibly it would be done via bzr
<LaserJock> using LP
<LaserJock> who know's
<LaserJock> we are discussing ditching source packages too so.... ;-)
<LaserJock> it Edgy!!!
<LaserJock> it's
<bhuvan> source package is ubuntu-docs and i assume we will place all these new documents in that.
<LaserJock> bhuvan: hehe, my point is that some people are talking about doing away with source packages in Ubuntu and using bzr/LP
<LaserJock> anyway
<bhuvan> ok
* bhuvan is in half sleep. it's already 11:55 midnight
<LaserJock> my point is, at this point we need to decide if it is worth pursuing actually figuring out an implementation plan
<bhuvan> LaserJock: i meant action plan. how do we plan to generate these docs ? what are the topics they constitute ? when we will release the first snapshot and things alike
<bhuvan> LaserJock: and importantly who is going to take the lead responsibility
<LaserJock> well, I think most of that is in mdke's spec
<bhuvan> LaserJock: nope. it's just the outline and it define what to do, but it doesnt explain howto do
<LaserJock> well, then we need to figure that out ;-)
<bhuvan> yeah, shall we move to next topic?
<LaserJock> I think mdke just wanted some feedback from the team as to if he was on crack or not ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<bhuvan> LaserJock, yeah i read it so
<LaserJock> next item
<bhuvan> w.u.c to h.u.c/community migration activity
<LaserJock> do we know if the wiki has moved yet?
<bhuvan> nope. they have set redirecting though
<LaserJock> yeah, I think people are busy getting ready for Paris
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> will there be any change in wiki clean-up activity before we do this migration?
<LaserJock> we really need to get that done though
<LaserJock> well, it should be ready to go
<LaserJock> lots of people went though and cleaned out docs they didn't want moved and added ones they did
<LaserJock> since it was supposed to happen like a week or two ago
<nixternal> we have been working on cleaning up w.u.c
<bhuvan> yeah, we seem to keep discussing about wikiteam and special privileges for them to control certain freezed pages ...
<LaserJock> next item?
<bhuvan> are we through with this?
<LaserJock> I think so, the move hasn't happened yet
<bhuvan> my doubt is, if we move are we planning to implement new policies for wiki or live with existing one?
<nixternal> any timeline on the move?
<LaserJock> nixternal: it was supposed to happen a while ago
<jjesse> are we still on the agenda or are there things we can move to #ubuntu-doc?
<LaserJock> we are on the agenda, do we need to make room for somebody else jjesse 
<nixternal> i thought so..i remember when i started working with the wiki team, corey said they were getting ready to move to h.u.c
<jjesse> nope i just don't want to get off track too far
<bhuvan> jjesse: i guess we are not getting off track
<LaserJock> bhuvan: yes, I expect there will be some new policies, not much of a change though
<bhuvan> i assumed when we migrate w.u.c to h.u.c/community, there might be a change in wiki policy, thus not all of the users can edit all pages
<bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
<LaserJock> bhuvan: only the wiki team can delete/rename and a few pages might be locked maliciousness doesn't happen 
<nixternal> so...community docs..is the entire wiki going to be transferred, or just redirects?
<bhuvan> may be none of us here are unaware of that. we can discuss it in in #ubuntu-doc or mailing list so each of us may be aware of what'd happen after the move
<bhuvan> ok, next item?
<LaserJock> nixternal: everything with CategoryDocumentation
<nixternal> ok
<bhuvan> it's mine: Define a standard for svn (ubuntu-doc repository) commit log messages
<nixternal> need to work on cleaning up more of those then
<LaserJock> nixternal: and redirects will be left on wiki.u.c
<LaserJock> bhuvan: yes?
<bhuvan> currently, we committers dont follow standard when we commit the patch
<bhuvan> it'd be great and useful if all committers follow and adhere to the standard when we record log messages
<LaserJock> is it a problem?
<bhuvan> in general, every open source project follow standard when it comes to commit
<LaserJock> well, but is it a problem for us? do you have an example?
<bhuvan> LaserJock: definitely yes. for a given document right now we dont know what was committed. the quality of log depend on committer
<LaserJock> does the log matter much?
<bhuvan> yes LaserJock
<bhuvan> when someone wish to scan through the changes made to a document over a period of time, it makes sense
<LaserJock> k, I guess
<mdke> bhuvan: are you talking about the svn commit log? 
<bhuvan> it does not require major effort to follow these simple standards, like: http://pastebin.com/713240
<bhuvan> mdke: yes
<bhuvan> mdke: last topic!
<mdke> gotcha
<mdke> I think the quality of the logs has been quite high, myself
<bhuvan> mdke: yeah true. everyone of us should follow
<mdke> they don't?
<bhuvan> ops, wrong url. it should be: http://pastebin.com/713254
<LaserJock> I'm just not seeing a problem, not that I'm against what your saying
<bhuvan> i prefer every committer to follow this standard. so the quality of log doesnt differ among committers
<mdke> I think that is a bit too detailed, it might be overkill
<bhuvan> LaserJock: ok. imo, it's good to practise these standards when we work in any open source project
<mdke> lots of times people make big changes, and detailing everything that closely would take some time
<bhuvan> mdke: ok, i guess it is required in long run. we can scan through the log messages and spell the history of document
<LaserJock> I don't know, I just try to explain what I did, if people really care they can check out the diff or -commits
<bhuvan> mdke: it can be comma seperated. for example if we add installation section for numerous sections, just include the section name seperated by comma
<bhuvan> LaserJock: to understand what has been changed, it's wise to have detailed log message than expecting the user to go through diff or -commits
<LaserJock> who's the user?
<LaserJock> I mean does anybody really care?
<bhuvan> document maintainers
<bhuvan> if someone joins our team in future and if he wish to see the history of document, log messages play vital role
<LaserJock> I'm not trying to bash the idea, it just seems a little overkill for us
<jjesse> agreed
<bhuvan> jjesse: agreed with whom :) :)
<jjesse> LaserJock
<bhuvan> yeah ok
<LaserJock> I'm pretty bad a commit/change logs but I can try to get better
<mdke> yes, I think it's a bit overkill. However we can make an effort to give a good explanation of what is done in commits
<bhuvan> ok. let me assume it's -1 :)
<mdke> I'm not -1, I just think your paste was a little too much effort
<bhuvan> mdke: ok
<LaserJock> bhuvan: what I would like to see is a good example in the style guide (if it doesn't have one already)
<mdke> good idea
<bhuvan> LaserJock: so you dont want it as mandatory. but we can let the committer take a call?
<LaserJock> "best practices"
<bhuvan> ok, sounds good
<LaserJock> and pehaps have a couple "essential elements of a good commit log"
<bhuvan> yeah ok
<LaserJock> like if you commit a patch from somebody else make sure to mention who they are ;-)
<bhuvan> yeah, we already do that
<bhuvan> fine, i guess that's it for the day. we have discussed almost 2hrs!
<bhuvan> i guess, it's one of the productive meeting we had :)
<LaserJock> yes
<mdke> nice
<LaserJock> it's because Matthew and Corey didn't show ;-)
<bhuvan> thanks to everybody, LaserJock, jjesse & nixternal
* mdke nods
<bhuvan> ha ha ha
<bhuvan> and Madpilot :)
<LaserJock> Doc Team meeting ends here ----------
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-17
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<jenda> Still no CC...
<simira> JaneW: hi, how are you?
<msikma> Ubuntu art meeting coming up soon...
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 20 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 16:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu
<Seveas> <msikma> Ubuntu art meeting coming up soon... <-- Please tell the fridge folks about meetings, otherwise #ubuntu-meeting may be occupied by others...
<sabdfl> hi all
<klepas> just a small change to the agenda
<msikma> So... this place has been taken over by the Ubuntu art team now.
<klepas> we're going to do the Goals first
<Who_> looks like it
<Who_> Thanks klepas :)
<klepas> it was the last section of the agenda
<msikma> First, off, I say we have us a little count of who's available on this meeting.
<klepas> but i agree, it's the most important
<klepas> msikma: good point
* klepas is Pascal Klein
* msikma is Michiel Sikma
<Seveas> small art team
* sabdfl is Mark Shuttleworth
* Seveas is Dennis Kaarsemaker (and only watching)
<lukacu> \me is Luka Cehovin
<lukacu> ups
* neodreams is Yan Brodeur
<Who_> *Who_ is Jonathan Austin
<msikma> As far as I know, the only people who have replied to the mail are here.
* andreasn is Andreas Nilsson
<msikma> Except Etienne, who said he couldn't come, probably.
<Who_> ahh, spot the irc newbie :P
<sabdfl> is that everybody?
<msikma> Sorry, tienne.
<msikma> I'm sure that others will join in later.
<klepas> okay
<klepas> so to get things rolling, i'll take minutes and write it up
<sabdfl> i'll chair this meeting for 45 minutes
<klepas> to begin, please check the item on the agenda marked our goals
<klepas> sabdfl: thanks :)
<sabdfl> i'd like to make sure the leadership and governance discussion is done by then
<sabdfl> at that point, i'll hand over to someone else to chair on the other issues
<sabdfl> thanks for setting up the agenda
<klepas> sure
<klepas> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-June/002108.html
<klepas> that
<klepas> is the agenda
<klepas> we'll go by you then
<sabdfl> here is a proposal on governance structure
<sabdfl>  - we have an overall art leadership team, with a chairman
<sabdfl>  - that could have 3-5 people on it
<sabdfl>  - responsible for:
* troy_s is here, but with daughter... in out.  Sorry folks.
<sabdfl>    - recognising contributions and thus membership of "formal art team" and membership in ubuntu
<sabdfl>      - settling overall art team disputes, which could still be referred up to the CC
<sabdfl>     - reporting to the CC on activity, membership changes etc
<sabdfl>   - we also want an "artist in chief" for Edgy
<sabdfl>     - this is a position-for-the-release,
<sabdfl>     - there would be a new artist-in-chief for a future release
<sabdfl>   - and then we have theme teams
<sabdfl>    - Human
<sabdfl>     - Tangerine
<sabdfl>     - Outdoors
<sabdfl> each theme should have a very clear "rationale for existence"
<sabdfl> so, i liked the analysis of folks on the list who were talking about "fast, lightweight" themes
<sabdfl> and of course palettes for different tastes
<msikma> Me too.
<sabdfl> each theme gets a core leadership
<Who_> Do your choice of themes names suggest that those are the three themes you want to continue with, or are they _just_ names?
<sabdfl> and its own part of the wiki, and its own mailing list
<klepas> just want to point out a package based off ubuntu-artwork is being made for all tango artwork, minus the icon set (as that is a separate package)
<sabdfl> Who_: Human and Tangerine are pretty settled, Outdoors is just a name, not attached to it
* cyanescent is Niel Drummond (updating Launchpad frantically)
<sabdfl> we could split the themes into their own packages
<klepas> so tango could be another "themed package"
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> ubuntu-theme-tango
<sabdfl> for example
<andreasn> metacity theme and stuff, right?
<sabdfl> so, most of the "here's a cool icon" discussion would happen in theme-specific lists
<Who_> sabdfl: And what is the definition of a theme in this context - _everything_ to do with art like the "wide theme_ proposal, or just GTK and Icons?
<troy_s> Might I propose that all themes exist below the Ubuntu 'wrapper' though -- if there is a programming implementation detail, it will need to migrate upstream accordingly.
<sabdfl> yes, overall theme: desktop, splash, icons, gtk, window decoration
<klepas> i think we all agree with this structure proposal - shall we vote on it?
<sabdfl> we can talk about implementation next week with the distro guys
<Who_> troy_s: can you explain the Ubuntu 'wrapper' - I don't know what you mean
<sabdfl> klepas: let's ask for comment first
<klepas> sure :)
<troy_s> Who_: Artwork-Team -> Themes
<Who_> troy_s: in the wiki
<Who_> ?
<klepas> comments in regard to the structural proposal now please
<sabdfl> in other words, the theme teams are subject to the art leadership?
<Who_> To structure: I like it, but I am unclear whether it would be necessary to assign ourselves to a specific team and therefore not contribute much to the other teams...
<msikma> The structural proposal sounds very good, but it makes me wonder whether there's actually an "artist-in-chief" for the entire release or whether there will be many more for each independent theme. If the former, then who has the ultimate authority?
<klepas> i think that is okay
<troy_s> sabdfl: In the interest of keeping Ubuntu on track, it would seem to make sense.  Human might be only a 'theme', but it does define Ubuntu for 99% of users.
<troy_s> Complexity is _not_ in our interest.
<sabdfl> Who_: you can contribute to any team or theme, but the main thing is to recognise that a theme is not a democracy - there are people in charge of each theme, period
<sabdfl> so you can contribute but need to go with their flow
<Who_> sabdfl: great - good to recognise
<sabdfl> if sufficient interest exists in additional theme teams, the art team leadership can create those too
<sabdfl> but not make any guarantees about what gets included
<msikma> That's fine.
<Who_> sabdfl: are teams responsible for generating (deb) packages for themes?
<sabdfl> Who_: they will be responsible for committing to a repository
<sabdfl> but the uploads will be done by developers
<cyanescent> I thought Tangerine was contracted... wouldn't it make sense that contributions get phased into one new theme, rather than spreading it thin ? 
<sabdfl> Human is contracted, and likely to remain that way for now
<sabdfl> but anybody can contribute
<sabdfl> just follow the style
<lapo> hi
<lukketto> sabdfl: please to meet you!
<msikma> Are you talking about the icon set or beyond just that, sabdfl?
<sabdfl> cyanescent: that's why I would prefer just Tangerine and a "fast, lightweight" Outdoors
<klepas> so, as we are generally in agreement with the proposal shall we move onto to considering positions for the artist-in-chief
<sabdfl> any further questions or comments?
<highvoltage> this art team covers edubuntu, kubuntu and xubuntu too, right?
<andreasn> sounds good
<Who_> yes: which themes are contracted - I.E how many will the art-team actually be responsible for
<sabdfl> highvoltage: good point!
<Who_> but yes - it also sounds good
<sabdfl> we should allow for theme teams for other flavours too
<ogra> highvoltage, the edubuntu-art team should join the ubuntu-art team imho
<highvoltage> ogra: i agree, i don't think that would be very difficult
<ogra> i think the others have art teams as well
<sabdfl> art leadership team is just responsible for basic governance, not deciding art for the individual themes
<troy_s> I love the idea of diversity, but the problem with the overarching look and feel of the Ubuntu project gets thrown into jeopardy by not having a top level sort of view.
<msikma> I have another question: as to the default theme of Ubuntu, it might be a good idea to have an intensive drafting phase before commissioning anyone to be the art leader. We have not seen all "directions" that we may take for the new theme yet, and yet appointing a leader would cause us to start following one.
<cyanescent> Who_: as I undertand, Human is still contracted, and art team gets Tangerine and lightweight Outdoors
<sabdfl> troy_s: that's the job of the artist-in-chief, and to a certain extent the art leadership team
<troy_s> sabdfl: Great.
<sabdfl> troy_s: is there a better way, perhaps?
<sabdfl> we want to give people the ability to focus on a theme they like, but still keep a strong style for the default
<troy_s> sabdfl: People can already focus on sub themes and particulars.
<sabdfl> ok
<troy_s> sabdfl: My concern is more with how Ubuntu looks to people who get a disk, from the packaging etc, right down to the 'wow' of install.
<msikma> That's my main concern as well.
<Who_> sabdfl: Is the packaging etc likely to stay contracted?
<troy_s> sabdfl: Which I guess means addressing things less in terms of themes and more in terms of 'singular os'.
<troy_s> Who_: Until someone steps up and gets the bloody work done, expect everything to remain contracted.
<ogra> Who_, shipit is no eternal thing ... it will end at some point
<lapo> sorry guys I'm late, so I missed something, can I find logs somewhere?
<sabdfl> Who_: if the chief artist is up to it, they can do packaging, subject to review by jane silber who currently handles the contracted artist for that
<troy_s> ogra:  Packaging is still relevant.
<klepas> lapo: note yet. we've just begin discussing the proposed structure
<troy_s> sabdfl: That would still require immense 'team' effort, not theme based fracturing.
<Who_> troy_s: Indeed. I can imagine that it may take a release cycle doing a great job on themes and other artwork before the team has the experience nad trust in the community to take on more of the art work...
<sabdfl> ok
<klepas> sabdfl: you only have a certain amount of time with us, shall we move on to the leadership making?
<msikma> I still have an unanswered question.
<msikma>  <msikma> I have another question: as to the default theme of Ubuntu, it might be a good idea to have an intensive drafting phase before commissioning anyone to be the art leader. We have not seen all "directions" that we may take for the new theme yet, and yet appointing a leader would cause us to start following one.
<sabdfl> msikma: the default theme stays Human until a new one has proven itself
<Who_> but I think msikma's point still stands that it would be good to be aware of the plans of any artist in chief we elect - as it could shape the ability of future themes to prove themeselves
<msikma> Yes, that's essentially what my point is.
<sabdfl> the artist-in-chief will not be elected
<Who_> when will they be chosen?
<msikma> I realize this, and know that he will be appointed rather than elected by vote.
<lapo> sabdfl: I'd like the art team to interact with desktop dev better
<troy_s> Which is exactly my point in steering away from this whole traditional notion of themes.  Human reflects ALL of Ubuntu, and that means packaging, textural references, palette considerations, etc.
<msikma> lapo: let's discuss that at a later time.
<sabdfl> over the next week - i do like the idea of candidates putting up a portfolio, or vision description
<troy_s> sabdfl: I am all for resume based approaches.
<sabdfl> troy_s: the artist-in-chief would have to oversee the default theme, and also interact with developers on everything else, like usplash etc
<lapo> sabdfl: speaking about icons for example in dapper there are 32x32 icons used all over the place, and we had no 32x32 in tango and tangerine at the time of release
<troy_s> sabdfl: Now we are speaking the same language.
<Who_> Selection on Resumes sounds great. Do we need to do any leadership selection today?
<sabdfl> ok, i have only 15 minutes left
<andreasn> sabdfl, sounds like a good idea
<msikma> I'm for full-fledged mock-ups rather than portfolio-based. Then we could actually get a good idea of how those people intend to work on Ubuntu.
<klepas> agreed
<sabdfl> is there anybody who has made a lot of contributions and discussion on the list but is NOT here?
<sabdfl> billy?
<Who_> and also Viper550 - is he here?
<klepas> sabdfl: i think it would be best to post to the ML and explain this resume-based approach that way
<sabdfl> hey kwwii
<klepas> such that we can at least cover the art leaders :)
<troy_s> msikma:  By portfolio I believe sabdfl is more speaking about how to find an artist in chief.
<kwwii> sabdfl: howdy :-)
<kwwii> sorry for bing late
<msikma> I still believe that it would be better to base the decision on visionary propositions for the future.
<troy_s> msikma:  Proofs of principle are all standard for development.
<cyanescent> what about the other positions, are they all doing resumes ?
<sabdfl> what suggestions are there for appointing the art leadership team?
<sabdfl> we want to cover timezones
<sabdfl> we need steady heads, with good artistic eyes
<msikma> Yes, but an artist-in-chief is going to strongly affect that, no doubt.
<sabdfl> and an ability to keep up with a mailing list and be on irc enough to deal with matters arising
<troy_s> msikma:  One would hope that someone with experience could show good judicial ombudsmanship.
<Who_> I'd like it to be people who have been contributing work to the team so far
<Who_> though that is a little unfair on those who have just joind :S
<kwwii> I think that the art-in-chief is definitely needed to present a common goal for everyone, so we are all working in the same direction
<troy_s> kwwii:  2nd that.
<sabdfl> kwwii: the artist in chief will also not have a free hand
<andreasn> well, we need to come up with good results in a resonable timeframe, so I think it would be best to take someone already involved
<kwwii> every project has a maintainer, and this is, in some ways, a maintership job
<sabdfl> they will have to pitch radical changes to the team, and to me
<klepas> sabdfl: move on to the art leaders, one tier below the artist in chief?
<Who_> klepas: agreed
<sabdfl> klepas: other way around, the artist-in-chief is only for a release, but the art leadership would have a longer term role
<klepas> yea
<sabdfl> someone could be part of the leadership team, and take a turn being artist-in-chief
<lukketto> but what are exactly the goals that the artist in chief have to reach?
<sabdfl>   - leadership team
<sabdfl>    - artist-in-chief
<sabdfl>     - default theme team
<sabdfl>     - other theme teams
<sabdfl> make sense?
<andreasn> yes
<lapo> yes
<klepas> sabdfl: you can describe the roal later on the ML
<sabdfl> ok
<klepas> along with the requirements for the resume-approach
<Who_> yes, but am I right in thinking that for any particular release the artisit in chief has final say and overall responsibility, not the leadership team
<Who_> ?
<klepas> in the remaining time, can we decide the art leaders?
<sabdfl> i'd like to note that the people who have take the most organised, systematic approach over the past two months have been:
<troy_s> Where is frank?
<sabdfl> troy_s, frank schoep, and cyanescent
<sabdfl> that's a very good indicator of an ability to lead, or be artist-in-chief
<klepas> would make sense to have these art leaders be the chief people working on the individual community themes?
<cyanescent> why thank you I am flattered 
<sabdfl> other strong contributors i'd like to highlight have been andreasn, kwwii
<lapo> I think some more granulatiry would make sense for each team, for example, gtk-theme coordinator, icon theme coordinator, wallpaper and so on
<sabdfl> i know i'm missing important contributors there
<Who_> cyanescent: Do you post to the mailing list under a different name?
* cyanescent is Niel Drummond
<kwwii> lapo: you'd probably have to seperate that into all the *buntu's, which would get too big
<ogra> sabdfl, yes our famous usplash designer 
<ogra> sabdfl, his nick is omeg iirc
<sabdfl> kubuntu and xubuntu and edubuntu probably need their own lead, who would basically be the lead of their default theme
<msikma> I don't count myself among the active contributors since I've only made mock-ups for usplash and nothing else at the moment, barring some tiny things here and there which I'm not sure I've even published.
<klepas> sabdfl: how shall we do this then in regards to the art leaders - cheif people working on the community themes or as lapo suggests a more granulatory approach
<Who_> I feel Billy has been very active and also has a lot of themeing experience
<sabdfl> lapo: that would become too bureaucratic
<msikma> That reminds me, it would be great if the art team leading could also make sure that projects remain consistent. Such as the usplash thing; Kubuntu has a slightly different design, and an art team leadership should be able to tell the artist of a particular part of the system to also make Kubuntu versions.
<sabdfl> i expect that the theme teams will have to look into the upstream community for the talent around gtk or qt theming
<sabdfl> just as we did with human in dapper
<sabdfl> they'll need to go and build those relationships
<andreasn> sounds good
<lapo> sabdfl: I'm not speaking of leadership, I'm speaking of someone who have the skills to coordinate the work
<troy_s> msikma:  2nd that.
<lapo> playing with gtkrcs is different then using the gimp
<kwwii> lapo: it sounds like we would end up having lots of people responsible for only one part of the artwork...this won't lead to a nice whole picture
<lapo> kwwii: yep, that's true
<troy_s> kwwii:  2nd that.
<klepas> maybe
<klepas> it would make sense to have the art leaders (the tier below the artist in chief) as the chief people working on the community themes
<Who_> While sabdfl is still around I would like to finalise the leadership team - do people see that as being possible?
<sabdfl> i really don't want too many positions
<klepas> and
<sabdfl> the theme teams are exactly that
<sabdfl> and they will need to recruit the skills they need
<sabdfl> but not get too formalistic about it
<lapo> ok, sounds fine
<sabdfl> cool
<andreasn> sounds good to me
<klepas> have a list of people who specialise such that they can be contacted accordingly if others have issues :)
<sabdfl> ok, i'm happy we are on the same page
<msikma> Yes, me too
<klepas> fair enough
<Who_> :)
<msikma> Don't we already have a list of interests?
<sabdfl> i suspect the theme teams will be small (in terms of actual decision makers, not contributors) otherwise they will drive themselves nuts
<sabdfl> i need to step away now
<klepas> yea
<klepas> thanks sabdfl 
<msikma> Thanks. See you later, sabdfl.
<andreasn> sabdfl, just one last question. Will you be at GUADEC?
<sabdfl> i will discuss art leadership team membership with a couple of people
<Who_> sabdfl: thanks - thinkgs are a lot clearer to me now
<sabdfl> andreasn: no, i don't believe i can make it this year, i am going to apachecon instead
<andreasn> sabdfl, ok, just checking
<sabdfl> i hope we can reduce the traffic on the general art list
<sabdfl> to overall strategy
<lapo> yeah!
<cyanescent> thank you sabdfl
<sabdfl> with individual themes being more collaborative and less noise
<sabdfl> thank you guys!
<andreasn> thank you
<kwwii> see you soon
<klepas> cheers
<lapo> thanks sabdfl
<sabdfl> i'll mail the list next week inviting people to apply for, or nominate for, the art leadership team
<klepas> Alright folks
<msikma> Excellent.
<klepas> let's finish the rest of the items on the agenda
<sabdfl> klepas: will you please chair the rest of the meeting?
<klepas> sure
<sabdfl> thanks
<sabdfl> cheers all
<ogra> msikma, when did you change your nick, thats confusing :) i just realized who you are now
<Who_> Ok - so those that remain here, without knowing things like the artwork leadership team and the artist in chief, what can we still effectgively discuss
<klepas> do you guys want 2 minutes break?
<msikma> ogra: sorry.
<klepas> before we reconvene?
<ogra> msikma, :)
<msikma> Are you referring to the Launchpad one or the IRC one?
<troy_s> wiki reorganization?
<ogra> msikma, IRC indeed
<msikma> Name reorganization :P
<kwwii> I would like to discuss the idea of cross-desktop themeing
<lapo> what0s the nexp point on the agenda klepas
<klepas> folks
<lapo> ?
<klepas> Alright
<lapo> kwwii: let's do the tango then :-)
<msikma> Heh
<klepas> art team leaders, as mark has pointed out will be the chief people working on the themes
<andreasn> lapo, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-June/002108.html
<Who_> kwwii: I'm interested there too - i think it's really important
<msikma> I also have something that I would like to bring up later in regard to cross-consistency.
<kwwii> well, I guess I have an opinion different than you guys :-)
<klepas> so I recommend we post to the wiki or the ML in summary who is working on what theme
<klepas> and from that see who are the chief people working on those
<troy_s> klepas:  I think his idea of leadership goes deeper than that.
<klepas> Yes, though note, we don't want too many positions as mentioned by mark
<troy_s> klepas:  Themes are only a small percent.  sabdfl was talking on a much higher level of artwork.
<kwwii> it would be nice to know what people are working on which projects
<klepas> kwwii: yes
<troy_s> kwwii:  Which was requested a good month to two months ago.
<klepas> so i propose that's it for the art leaders
<andreasn> kwwii, in regards to having all buntus using the same theme or making all apps rocking on the other buntus?
<troy_s> kwwii:  With no response.
<klepas> i'll write to the list asking for a summary from everyone
<cyanescent> I still don't understand where the art team stands on Human -- it's still contacted, so how much input do we have on the "generic" wide theme
<klepas> # Next item is the wiki
<klepas> please see the points on the agenda in regard to this
<troy_s> cyanescent:  Just think that there is _no_ art team.  Hence sabdfl has to do what needs done, that means contracting.
<troy_s> sorry klep.
<troy_s> carry on.
<klepas> Any comments or suggestions in regard to that section (the wiki)
<klepas> (please see the agenda)
<msikma> Things have been shaping up lately.
<msikma> There have been some structural changes for the better.
<troy_s> Well I tend to agree with Et on the idea that all artwork things need to root from a common page.
<msikma> We're in the right direction.
<andreasn> well, right now there are lots of "here is some wallpaper I did yesterday, vote on this"-pages
<andreasn> those should probably go
<klepas> it needs to be simplified
<troy_s> andreasn:  Yes.  Waste of time.  Who admins art.ubuntu.com -- they need to pick up some slack.
<msikma> andreasn: there needs to be a page for just those things.
<klepas> condense pages
<Who_> troy_s: yea, I'd like it to be pretty heirachical
<troy_s> klepas:  I think that's the goal.
<lapo> if there will be 3 teams I think the siki organization should follow
<klepas> good
<msikma> There needs to be a sort of basket in which people can toss random things that they don't have the time for to figure out exactly where it should go.
<kwwii> 3 teams?
<troy_s> incoming / drafts notion.
<troy_s> I think Et has that.
<msikma> So a newbie to ubuntu art or one-time contributor could just toss his brand new icon in some page and then not worry about whether or not it'll be put in the right place.
<troy_s> lapo:  I didn't read three teams.
<troy_s> msikma:  2nd that.
<klepas> we also need to note that people should not edit established guidelines and content without consulting the team first
<troy_s> msikma:  Which is what the content management system was intended for -- art.ubuntu.com, but apparently the admins gave up.
<cyanescent> No... the reason we are getting random submissions is because of a lack of documentation
<klepas> that includes massive structural changes
<troy_s> klepas:  2nd that.
<cyanescent> some newbie will always want to submit something
<klepas> Therefore
<cyanescent> but it is unclear what to submit
<troy_s> cyanescent:  2nd that.
<Who_> klepas: definitely - we had a rough structure and then it all went somewhere else! no email to the ML...
<msikma> troy_s: perhaps, although it might be nice to state such things on the wiki as clearly as possible. In the end, we would like people to know exactly how to toss their art someplace as simple as possible.
<klepas> I suggest we call for anyone who is willing to help restructure the wiki such that:
<msikma> I've never used art.ubuntu.com so I'm not sure how simple it is.
<klepas>  - it is simple to browse
<troy_s> Who_:  I'll take the fall on that one.  The original structure was complicated and loosley set forth by Henrik I believe.
<lapo> troy_s: perhaps I missed something, I thought human, tangerine and outdoors are more or less indipendent branches of the artteam
<klepas> - less pages - condense information
<troy_s> msikma:  Exactly my point ;)
<troy_s> klepas:  2nd that.
<lapo> klepas: yeah
<klepas> who is willing to help with that>
<klepas> one or two people?
<troy_s> klepas:  with existing links to mailing list howtos, irc howtos, and a special mailing list posting page guideline, page template, etc.
<klepas> i'd be happy to help in this regard
<msikma> By the way, does art.ubuntu.com cover everything art-related or just wallpapers and themes?
<kwwii> I would suggest making a system that only excepts SVGs
<Who_> I think Etienne is up for that, isn't he?
<troy_s> Et isn't here :(  -- he has been doing a TREMENDOUS amount of work on trying to get things in order.
<klepas> guys, can we stay on track
<Who_> klepas: I was proposing Et as a 'wiki organiser' along with you - as I think he is up for it...
<cyanescent> msikma: it seems just wallpapers and such
<klepas> anyone else?
<troy_s> Follow our chair please.
<klepas> okay
<cyanescent> Who_ 2nd that
<klepas> i'll contact Et and chat to him about it
<klepas> moving on
<klepas> AUC
<troy_s> I second klepas for wiki structure -- he is level headed and listens to others well.
<Who_> kelpas: can we just ask what you have in mind?
<klepas> Who_: in regards to AUC or the previous topic, the wiki?
<Who_> the wiki, sorry - didn't get in quick enough
<klepas> sure
<klepas> the idea is we want to simplify the content so far
<klepas> we have a lot of structural problems
<klepas> and we want to condense the information
<troy_s> klepas:  Et has a loose tier structure in his home wiki, you could adjust and post there as well.
<klepas> i'm going to contact Et
<klepas> and we're going to formalise something
<klepas> and make it happen
<troy_s> Can we just agree that between et and pascal, we at least have some ruling power.
<klepas> during that time, it would be wise not for others to make huge changes to the wiki
<troy_s> klepas:  2nd.
<klepas> such that we can do our work
<lapo> right
<klepas> once we're done (2 weeks)
<troy_s> klepas:  subject to leadership decisions of course... but that is our future and goes without saying.
<klepas> we'll contact you all on the ML and tell how the hierachy on the wiki is
<troy_s> klepas:  Do you think we can set a timeline for launchpad with spec
<klepas> and people can discuss it
<klepas> sure
<troy_s> klepas:  with that 2 weeks?
<klepas> within 2 and a half weeks
<klepas> i prefer 3, personally
<lapo> klepas: btw keep it as simple as possible please 
<klepas> as i have exams coming up next week
<troy_s> klepas:  so once we are past that, we can refine the spec further and upgrade to implementing.
<klepas> lapo: definitely
<lapo> cool
<troy_s> lapo:  Pretty sure he will 
<klepas> troy_s: that's the idea
<troy_s> Neil?
<klepas> Cool guys, thanks
<troy_s> Launchpad knowledge needs to increase as well folks...
<klepas> shall we move on?
<troy_s> Launchpad has a bunch of tools to handle our tracking... 
<cyanescent> yep... will work on it
<klepas> Alright
<klepas> # AUC
<cyanescent> it all needs some hierarchy
<troy_s> auc?
<klepas> as stated in the agenda, AUC has numerous problems, however I think these should be fixed/addressed at a later point in time
<troy_s> australian ubuntu conference?
<troy_s> laf.
<klepas> troy_s: art.ubuntu.com :)
<troy_s> okie.
<klepas> ;)
<klepas> i think we need to prioritise
<troy_s> klepas:  2nd.
<klepas> and AUC is not the most important
<lapo> right
<troy_s> Who has admin rights there to post?
<klepas> it important for artwork that does not make mainstream/universe
<troy_s> I have ssh, but no mysql access.
* klepas does
<lukacu> me too
<lapo> the wiki is the most important thing to fix atm in my opinion
<troy_s> klepas:  Can you update the main news to accomodate this notice?
<klepas> yes
<kwwii> klepas: so when you are done with the wiki you know what to do :-)
<troy_s> klepas:  reference folks to the wiki
<ogra> troy_s, hno, and me at least, formerly JaneW as well, but she left the company
<klepas> i don't think i have access to that
<ogra> *heno
<klepas> but i'll check
<troy_s> ogra:  I only have ssh to the sheel.
<troy_s> shell even... not to the DB ax
<klepas> sftp and admin via the CMS
<ogra> troy_s, i only have access to the gui :) but i dont even know where i got the PW
<troy_s> klepas:  Talk in asides.  My knowledge isn't great.
<klepas> pardon?
<troy_s> klepas:  You can educate me in an aside later.  Keep flowing.
<klepas> ah, sure
<klepas> sorry :)
<klepas> So, in summary, AUC is not the important priority on our list
<troy_s> No, but people who go there should know not to expect much.
<troy_s> Forums -- who actively participates in the forums?
<klepas> I'll see about mentioning this on AUC somewhere so people can read it then we can fix it later; discuss it at a later meeting.
<andreasn> I check them out on a regular basis
<andreasn> but I do not communicate there
<klepas> troy_s: shall we do that later?
<klepas> Launchpad is next on the agenda...
<klepas> :)
<troy_s> klepas:  Indeed.  Apologies!
<klepas> no worries
<klepas> # Launchpad
<Who_> it seems to me ther eis a lot more ubuntu related work on gnome-look.org
<cyanescent> So with this new leadership structure, will new memebers still be able to subscribe freely to launchpad ??
<Who_> (late again - sorry)
<ogra> cyanescent, why shouldnt they
<cyanescent> this might become an issue, if we have a bunch of great suggestions that we can't track down afterwards
<klepas> does everyone agree with the point mentioned in the agenda concerning Launchpad?
<Who_> cyanescent: I think there should be two teams - 'ubuntu-art' and ubuntu-art-core'
<lapo> klepas: yes
<troy_s> Who_:  That's sabdfl's idea.
<cyanescent> well... afaik the devel team is closed no ?
<klepas> Launchpad is great for package and bug management and general organisation for the team. We should make use of it."
<lapo> Who_: ubuntu-hard-core as well :-)
<cyanescent> ugh
<troy_s> cyanescent:  Give it week.  Mark will lead on that end.
<klepas> guys
<andreasn> have been using Launchpad a lot for bugs on tangerine and tango-icon-theme common
<klepas> troy_s: you have admin rights to the artwork team on launchpad?
<cyanescent> yes... launchpad will need a great deal of work
<troy_s> Yes, as does who_, etc.
<cyanescent> can everyone who hasn't yet subscribed, subscribe themeselves
<lapo> klepas: I have experience in launchpad bug tracking, so it is important to have the right packetization of the stuff the art team is going to produce
<troy_s> cyan:  Wiki can address that as well as mailing list.
<klepas> Good
<troy_s> lapo:  very good.
<cyanescent> I am adding all these suggestions from the mailing list archives, and can't seem to get everyone's email up
<Who_> One of the major problems I see with out existence as a Launchpad team is that people asssign bugs to us that are actually for the contractors who do human. We need to communicate better with them if we are going to keep things as they are
<klepas> i propose this then
<klepas> That those who have admin rights to Launchpad and know it, teach those who have/will get admin rights  :)
<troy_s> who_:  absolutely.
<troy_s> klepas:  working on it... you guys have seen the launchpad howto i stuffed out in a pinch?
<klepas> so people knowing bug tracking can show the chief people of the themes how to manage bugs filed agains them, for example
<troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadHowTo (or Howto)
<klepas> troy_s: yes, thanks :)
<Who_> klepas: sounds good. At the moment I believe only Mark can give (and take away) launchpad admin rights
<ogra> Who_, if you differ between ubuntu-art and ubuntu-core-art thats no problem
<troy_s> Who_:  No.  Owner can.
<ogra> Human stuff gets just assigned to ubuntu-core-art then
<Who_> troy_s: who is owner?
<troy_s> ogra:  If we are all on the same page, we follow what core dictates, then work from there.
<troy_s> Who_:  Mark switched ownership to me for some reason.
<Who_> ogra: Sounds good :). How do we let anyone who actually assigns teams to bugs know that ?
<ogra> troy_s, Who_ was concerned ybout getting Human bugs assigned to the common art team
<lapo> so what exactly we should do with launchpad considering that there's the wiki as well
<klepas> bug tracking
<klepas> package management
<klepas> calendar
<lapo> should we care most the wiki or launchpad, the functions are overlapping somewhere
<ogra> Who_, you make a default subscription of ubuntu-core-art to all packages concerning Human
<Who_> lapo: Launchpad seems designed to be used alongside  a wiki
<klepas> other organisation
<troy_s> lapo:  MOST people I think start at the wiki, so knowledge should flow from there.  For us, our mailing list and Launchpad should be our primary recourse.
<troy_s> Who_:  Exactly!
<cyanescent> lapo: I think launchpad has a wiki as well... 
<ogra> Who_, then -core-art gets notified automatiaclly
<troy_s> ogra:  You can subbranch.  art-core can have a branch that links to ubuntu-art
<Who_> I see very much the wiki to be the place for all the information. Launchpad provides us a structure and some organisational tools
<cyanescent> IMO we should put the existing wiki on the launchpad wiki
<klepas> We will work on the wiki more for the moment
<ogra> troy_s, that too
<cyanescent> would make things less confusing for casual contributors
<troy_s> cyanescent:  Launchpad wiki is solely for docs.
<cyanescent> can't it be expanded ?
<troy_s> cyanescent:  wiki.ubuntu.com is all things ubuntu -- a central repository of knowledge.
<klepas> troy_s: can you please formalise a mail to the mailing list outlining what launchpad will be used for?
<lapo> well launchpad as a lot of funtionality, and there is the wiki and th ml, I fear that he art team will spend more time writing stuff then doing art
<klepas> such that people can distinguish it's uses from the wiki
<troy_s> lapo:  Documentation is the key.  You can't make a movie without a script.  You can't make a script without a treatment. 
<cyanescent> klepas: that should go in a wiki, because all ML goes in the archives
<cyanescent> so only useful for current members
<troy_s> lapo:  Same applies for other creatives as well :)
<klepas> cyanescent: good point
<Who_> lapo: I think that the leadership team and the artist in chief will be more concerned with LP and the WIKI while the people contributing will do just that
<ogra> lapo, thats only true for initial setup, once you have all set up and specified there is not much to write
<troy_s> Nice to see this all coming together.
<klepas> Who_: about right
<klepas> shall we move on?
<troy_s> ogra:  Exactly.
<cyanescent> Shouldn't we cover some more on off-disk art
<lapo> not sure guys
<Who_> Mark seemed to want to have stuff uploaded to LP - is that right? Do we keep LP as a repository for art then?
<cyanescent> since this is what we'll be seen doing from the oustide world 
<troy_s> who_:  I think we can deal with that on mailing list.
<Who_> troy_s: okie, after the positions have ben filled, I guess...
<lapo> troy_s: but the ml must have less traffic then now
<Who_> cyanescent: You mean publicity, etc?
<troy_s> lapo:  Good point.  Can we priortize a wiki page for mailing list headings and such, and RELEVANT posts?
<cyanescent> yes... it seems we've been bunked out of human... so we should concentrate on marketting
<troy_s> who_:  Yes... paris will clear this up.
<cyanescent> CDs 
<cyanescent> box art
<klepas> move on...?
<cyanescent> etcet 
<lapo> perhaps having a different ml for art team coordination would be nice
<ogra> cyanescent, i think that will still be done by an agency 
<Who_> Mark gave us the name of someone we need to interact with about that
<Who_> if we wanted to do it
<ogra> Who_, silbs (Jane Silber) 
<troy_s> ogra:  It SHOULD be done inside.  He went outside because it was NOT getting done.
<troy_s> ogra:  Lack of formal structure once again.
<Who_> However, the way I have read the situation is that we need to prove ourselves as a team this release, before taking on more responisbilities (i.e branching out into publicity etc for the next one)
<lapo> troy_s: too work required I believe
<lapo> s/too/too much/
<troy_s> lapo:  Not really... we have a large base of artists...
<troy_s> lapo:  Docteam handles the text.
<troy_s> lapo:  It is just coordination etc.
<Who_> and also people keen to work on that kind of art
<cyanescent> too many artists with a different vision
<klepas> Folks, can we stay on track
<troy_s> cyan:  Exactly.  No structure.
<klepas> Please
<troy_s> Listen to chair.
<klepas> let's cover this later
<lapo> yep klepas, sorry, shall we move on?
<Who_> yea, we seem to be over LP
<klepas> right now we want to discuss the technologies we use, leadership and our goals
<klepas> thus, next on the list is the mailing list
<Who_> I think leadersip and goals are going to have to wait till Mark notifies the ML
<klepas> do people agree with what is written in the agenda in regard to this
<highvoltage> a l'aeroport, s'il vous plait!
<klepas> "The Mailing List is our primary method of communnication."
<kwwii> the ML should mainly be for announcements, and more major things, I think
<troy_s> PROPOSAL:  Can we clearly outline a page at the wiki for captial text SUBTITLES (for searching and such -- ask Neil) and RELEVANT posting?
<highvoltage> (sorry)
<lapo> klepas: yep, but now the ubuntu art list is very difficult too follow
<kwwii> it is not the way to carry on an art discussion
<klepas> Note though, we do not want too much activity on it!
<Who_> I think it is the best way to communicate with everyone
<klepas> So we want to tone it down
<lapo> klepas: it should be something like ddl
<Who_> ddl?
<klepas> ddl?
<andreasn> gnome desktop devel list
<lapo> sorry, desktop-devel-list
<troy_s> klepas:  Much like launchpad -- You post a NOTIFY, with a wiki link.
<Who_> and then everyone comments on the wiki?
<msikma> I'm unfortunately really too tired and hungry to keep following the discussion at this point, guys. I'm sure you'll finish it without my help just fine. I'll read the logs later. I'm gonna go make some food for myself now.
<troy_s> klepas:  Formal categories... if you can't fit it -- DONT post.
<lapo> troy_s: not sure about that, you still force people to read all the stuff there
<klepas> msikma: cheers and thanks for attending :)
<klepas> Alright
<troy_s> lapo:  I filter my [mailing list titles] , its easy and effective with heading based codes.
<lapo> ciao msikma
<troy_s> night sik!
<msikma> Yeah, see you guys later
<troy_s> take care.
<klepas> So, if I say the following will people agree:
<msikma> It's not night yet :P
<ogra> ciao msikma 
<lapo> troy_s: that's not the point, we need lesser traffic
<msikma> I'll be back later, then.
<lapo> less
<troy_s> lapo:  I disagree.  I think we need more directed traffic that accomplishes our goals.
<troy_s> lapo:  I don't mind traffic if it is on topic, scannable, and organized.
<ogra> lapo, thats very hard to achieve, we try this on ubuntu-devel since 2 years with not much success
<Who_> troy_s: agreed
<klepas> "The Mailing list should be used as our primary method of general communication, through announcements and simple, small messages with, if possible references to the wiki. We do not want too much traffic over the list."
<ogra> lapo, if the list exists, people will post
<lapo> troy_s: I have to make icons, If I spend more a lot of time on the ml, I can't do icons, simple
<cyanescent> well... an ML can always turn busy -- I think we need more than one ML
<cyanescent> maybe a discussion on, and a serious one
<lapo> cyanescent: right
<ogra> ubuntu-art-announce 
<Who_> cyanescent: great
<troy_s> lapo:  Sorry then, but we _do_ need central up to the minute communications.  And that mailing list is the ONLY way to achieve transparent democracy where it is needed.
<klepas> of course, there can be exceptions, and discussions concerning announcements
<andreasn> or we could try to have more discussion on irc perhaps?
<klepas> unless we want a separate mailing list
<klepas> but i doubt that would fix things
<troy_s> cyanescent:  Good idea.  Notifications and discussion?
<cyanescent> yep, so its decided
<troy_s> klepas:  I agree... if we just topic it.
<troy_s> cyan:  Not so fast, I think klepas has a point.
<cyanescent> ok so its not
<Who_> troy_s: I agree - how else can we involve everyondy (is that still our aim, after these leadership changes?)
<cyanescent> =)
<klepas> because then we move the current problem and create a new list for announcements
<troy_s> klepas:  Bingo.
<klepas> we still have that massively busy list
<Who_> irc is problematic because it is too easy for people to miss im,portant thinsg
<troy_s> klepas:  Can we at least _try_ the topic based approach with a _written_ guideline?
<klepas> it does not go away because of that
<troy_s> who_:  2nd that.
<troy_s> klepas:  2nd that.
<lapo> klepas: it is how it worked in gnome, do a new ml, when it get too much noise, do a new one, and so, not an elegant solution but it worked
<klepas> Therefore do people agree:?
<ogra> well, it didnt lower the traffic on ubuntu-devel when we created ubuntu-devel-announce, but people who only want relevant info only subscribe to announce 
<troy_s> klepas:  But to be fair, it has spurts of activity that are completely unrelated.  We need to cop it.
<klepas> "The Mailing list should be used as our primary method of general communication, through announcements and simple, small messages with, if possible references to the wiki. We do not want too much traffic over the list."
<cyanescent> Well... there will always be newbies who ignore the header based approach
<troy_s> lapo:  Gnome is hardly the epitome of organization :)
<kwwii> klepas: I agree with that
<lapo> uhm that's right :-)
<Who_> kelpas: yes. great.
<lapo> klepas: agreed, the point is how to reduce the traffic :-)
<troy_s> cyan:  as a fellow who has done archive work recently
<klepas> however this does not mean we stop people from having ontopic discussions concerning announcements and occasional new ideas
<troy_s> cyan:  would headings help?
<Who_> I think we need some documentation or a link to a howto about a header based approach :S
<troy_s> who_:  2nd.
<cyanescent> yes headings would help... but only for the experienced
<troy_s> cyan:  assuming that the experienced are going to sort when needed.
* kwwii has to run to the store before it closes...bye all
<klepas> ultimately we want to reduce traffic, better headings/mail subjects but not the ideas that come over the ML
<troy_s> kwwii:  adieu.
<andreasn> bye kwwii 
<cyanescent> there is a great deal of random traffic, which could really be done elsewhere I reckon
<lapo> ciao kwwii
<Who_> kelpas: absaloutrely not. Art needs to be discussed, I don't think we can get around having mail abnout it!
<troy_s> klepas:  Exactly.
<klepas> Good
<cyanescent> not every artist is a mail hacker
<troy_s> klepas:  Not so much less, but more structure.
<klepas> so we can agree with that statement in ""
<klepas> i'll make it formal
<klepas> and make sure that goes on to the wiki in our guidelines page
<troy_s> Cyanescent:  Very true. 
<Who_> people - what do we think about using art.ubuntu.com as a way of discussing ideas/work - it would move the traffic to forums, etc
<cyanescent> ciao kwii
<klepas> so, can we move on?
<troy_s> klepas:  If you can at least tackle some sort of subject that would help
<klepas> IRC is next on the list
<troy_s> klepas:  That loose draft design doc has some headings, but they are most certainly not even close to exhaustive or complete.
<lapo> Who_: it will be anouther thing people should follow, not sure about it
<klepas> this should be small to cover
<troy_s> lapo:  Yes.
<cyanescent> Who_: I get the impression most ppl on AUC don't find the artteam wiki
<klepas> Guys, IRC
<troy_s> lapo:  As it stands now, we have wiki for information -- and mailing list / launchpad stem from that effectively.
<cyanescent> there needs to be more info
<lapo> we need a way to organiza our work, w/o consuming too much artists time
<klepas> from the agenda:
<troy_s> sorry... Chair.
<klepas> > 5. IRC. #ubuntu-artwork is for helping each other out,  
<klepas> > collaboration between people working on similar/the same thing  
<klepas> > while #ubuntu-meeting will be for our meetings. Please do not make  
<klepas> > important choices that affect the team in IRC unless of course it's  
<klepas> > part of a meeting. :)
<klepas> Are we in agreement?
<andreasn> yeah
<Who_> yea.
<lapo> I think we should encourage meeting on irc istead of very long trheads on the ml
<troy_s> klepas:  Simply can't.  IMportant decisions have their place in Launchpad.
<ogra> please dont forget to mail the fridge about your meerting times btw
<andreasn> and we could all try to hang out more in #ubuntu-artwork if new people arrive
<klepas> troy_s: we're doing decision making here, now :)
<troy_s> ogra:  Good point.  Let's keep them at a minimum too.  Timezones stink for everyone.
<klepas> lapo: also a good point
<klepas> will add as well
<troy_s> klepas:  You know what I mean ;)
<cyanescent> yep .. we also need to mention our meetings on fridge -- this one wasn't and could have been booked
<klepas> :)
<klepas> cyanescent: yes
<troy_s> andreasn:  2nd that.
<ogra> troy_s, the fridge is essentialy used to "book" #ubuntu-meeting for a certain timeframe 
<andreasn> lapo, agreed
<klepas> Okay, that's IRC covered
<troy_s> ogra:  Yep.
<lapo> more meetings needed then, do you guys agree?
<troy_s> lapo:  Disagree.
<klepas> definitely
<klepas> once a month :)
<klepas> minimum
<lapo> cool
<troy_s> Eek.
<troy_s> Count me out.
<klepas> :)
<andreasn> once a month sounds sane
<cyanescent> lol
<troy_s> I think that is a grave mistake.
<troy_s> but alas, this is a democracy.
<klepas> of course, we can also call upon the chief people working on their themes to report
<klepas> and discuss that
<ogra> troy_s, how do you want to communicate then ? 
<klepas> so for example:
<cyanescent> Well at least it gets logged...
<troy_s> Ogra:   I prefer existing documented archived traceable mailing list.
<klepas> we can have one IRC meeting sometime down the track concerning the tango artwork theme
<troy_s> Ogra:  So that other's can easily trace the discourse.
<ogra> troy_s, ML is very delayed if you do work as a team
<lapo> klepas: go go go :-)
<troy_s> Ogra:  And people who aren't here get to contribute -- like key figures who couldn't show up today.
<klepas> in an IRC meeting we can get a lot done in just a few hours
<ogra> troy_s, usually all #ubuntu-* channels are logged, you can look up everything there
<cyanescent> on IRC no one is ever around... can't understand how a newbie is supposed to get help
<troy_s> Ogra:  I disagree.  Mail is primary in most businesses.
<Who_> I think, if we look how important this meeting in and how many key people are missing we can see they aren't great for letting everyone have their day
<klepas> and it's great to chat once in a while realtime :)
<cyanescent> meetings may make sense in that regard
<troy_s> Who_:  2nd!
<klepas> Which!
<ogra> troy_s, not in all other ubuntu areas ... main workplace here is IRC 
<klepas> is why we could focus meetings on specifics
<troy_s> klepas:  I am ALL for chatting, not decision making.
<klepas> such as specific updates on themes
<lapo> I have to run guys, andreasn, klepas would you pass me your notes so I can do my homework? :-)
<Who_> I think that it is true we can get a lot _done_ in irc - as far as WORK is concerned, but not as far as decisions
<andreasn> lapo, sure
<troy_s> ogra:  Well I tend to deal with things that need to make money, not for folks who have 24hr access to the net.
<troy_s> lapo:  No this is a meeting.  See my point :)
<klepas> sure
<klepas> i will put it to the mailing list after i sleep
<troy_s> who_:  And launchpad / mailing list has tools.  Launchpad in particular.
<ogra> troy_s, well, i'm a bit biased as ubuntu dev, my workplace is called #edubuntu and #ubuntu-devel
<lapo> troy_s: I can see your poin, but my gf can not :-)
<lapo> ciao ciao
<troy_s> who_:  We just need to abide by them.
<klepas> okay
<troy_s> ogra:  That works for the folks who can attend.  Not for people with families, education, children, etc.
<klepas> how about this adjustment to that statement from the agenda: (give me a minute to type)
<troy_s> ogra:  Careers away from computers.  Etc.
<troy_s> Go chair.
<ogra> troy_s, but by the looks of it, all other ubuntu areas coordinate via IRC as well, i dont understand why the art team should differ
<troy_s> you guys aren't helping my packing.
<troy_s> ogra:  Let me tell you -- if you want me to recruit real folks who make a living doing this sort of thing -- and you might not -- then IRC is not an option.
<troy_s> ogra:  But alas, that is for the democracy to decide.
<cyanescent> Because artists don't use a keyboard 24/7
<Who_> I think it is true that many artists are less able to hang out on IRC all day in the way devs are - though I may be wrong...
<ogra> troy_s, its not only about making artwork, its also about participating iun the community imho
<troy_s> Agreement 100%
<troy_s> ogra:  Agree with you.
<troy_s> ogra:  But practically speaking, as an example, I have a family 
<troy_s> ogra:  a career that i work 14-16 hours per day average.
<ogra> troy_s, but apparently you are here talking to me :)
<cyanescent> ogra: have you seen the activity in #ubuntu-artwork ?
<troy_s> ogra:  I respected klepas post.  I can't do too many.
<ogra> cyanescent, i havent looked into the artwork channel recently, no
<klepas> IRC . #ubuntu-artwork is for helping each other out, collaboration between people working on similar/the same thing and general chatting. #ubuntu-meeting is for our meetings. Please do not make important decisions that affect the entire team in IRC unless of course it is in a meeting. We encourage a call for a meeting once a month though this might be specific to just one part of the team working on something like a specific theme
<troy_s> ogra:  Perhaps you are correct.  I am merely suggesting that perhaps there are alternatives.
<klepas> there we go
<klepas> agree?
<cyanescent> ogra: it's dead.... that is why there is a little antipathy towards it
<troy_s> klepas:  Should we subject major decisions to Launchpad votes?
<andreasn> klepas, agreed
<klepas> yes
<cyanescent> klepas: 2nd that
<klepas> votes should be done using LP
<Who_> klepas: yes. we can't make decisions involving everyone in IRC every month!
<klepas> but simple decisions that can be done via IRC is good
<troy_s> klepas:  Ok so IRC is below Launch then... which means that we should at least mailing list the hot topics here and make sure EVERYONE is in the know.
<ogra> cyanescent, so bring it to life again, when i was there daily (until about 3 months ago) it started to become a bit more busy
<klepas> Who_: pray, why not?
<troy_s> Who_:  2nd that.
<cyanescent> troy_s : launchpad votes sound like a step forwards
<Madpilot> morning all - running a bit late, sorry about that
<troy_s> klepas:  I agree with Who_, but again...
<Who_> because I don't think everyone can be expected to make an IRC meeting once a month - give our timezones!
<troy_s> MAD!!!
<troy_s> Greetings mad.
<troy_s> Who_:  100% 2nd.
<klepas> Who_: other teams do it
<troy_s> klepas:  Again, I suggest that you not look to the other teams as the epitome of architecture and structure.
<klepas> and i think if we split to make it the meeting pertaining to specific part of the team (those working on X and Y) it would make it easier
<ogra> in edubuntu we have two alternating times to cover all TZs, works pretty well
<andreasn> what kinds of decitions are we talking about here?
<Who_> klepas: I think other teams are more 'computer centric'. 
<troy_s> klepas:  There are many folks who can't contribute to open source projects merely because of the methods of communication and contribution.
<klepas> okay
<troy_s> Up to this point, computer folks find IRC great.  I like IRC, but it is a _long_ way from effective.
<klepas> Monthly meetings with minimum impact decisions concerning the art team as a whole then
<klepas> such that big decisions are handled via LP
<Who_> klepas: Yeas, splitting meetinsgs down is good - so for example each contributor may be needed every 2 months...
<andreasn> hm, ok then
<troy_s> klepas:  Can we at least have them in ubuntu-artwork then?
<ogra> troy_s, well, ubuntu is built on IRC
<troy_s> ogra:  *sigh*, and look where the art is at.
<ogra> troy_s, i wouldnt say its not effective :)
<troy_s> ogra:  On the contrary, I would.
<klepas> we're here now
<troy_s> ogra:  It has worked marvels in smaller subsets, but horrible in others.
<klepas> okay, so
<troy_s> klepas:  But you are missing the point, where is frank, et, etc?
<troy_s> klepas:  And those folks are important.
<Who_> klepas: sounds good. I think IRC is great for that kind of thing, for collaboration between sub-teams etc :)
<klepas> final ammendment to the statement:
<troy_s> klepas:  100% for brainstorming it is terrific.
<ogra> troy_s, yes, back when the first artteam approach was made they didnt want to start work before a groupware server was set up... else we'd have one already 
<ogra> i dont see why the way *how* you communicate is so important for artworkers
<cyanescent> troy_s: second that -- we are missing essential contributors
<troy_s> ogra:  Let's just say that on the whole, artwork in Ubuntu is a complete dismal failure -- Mark has outsourced much of it.
<klepas> IRC . #ubuntu-artwork is for helping each other out, collaboration between people working on similar/the same thing and general chatting. #ubuntu-meeting is for our meetings. Please do not make important decisions that affect the entire team in IRC unless of course it is in a meeting. We encourage a call for a meeting once a month though this might be specific to just one part of the team working on something like a specific theme
<ogra> (or with which tool)
<klepas> this way, with only about 2-4 people meeting for specific things
<troy_s> ogra:  And I might add that Mark has outsourced a few areas outside of art, so if IRC were the end all, it would work flawlessly.  It doesn't.
<klepas> we ensure a larger chance that those can work something out
<ogra> troy_s, community artwork wasnt existent at all until recently (apart from edubuntu where the artteam is very active)
<troy_s> klepas:  Ok then repository based?
<klepas> and high impact decisions are handled via LP
<cyanescent> need to cook for a bit... will be idling
<Who_> klepas: Good - maybe just a reference that major decisions must be thorugh the ML and/or LP?
<klepas> and are announced on the ML
<troy_s> klepas:  Meaning we need to see the output on a regular posted basis... that means a secretary who can attend them :)
<klepas> does that sound okay?
<troy_s> Who_:  2nd that.  Decisions via Launch.
<klepas> no, those who meet can keep minutes and post the result on the ML
<ogra> troy_s, mark has outsources simply beacuse there was *nobody* wanting to do the artwork (or the ones that wanted only discussed how their groupware server had to look like)
<Who_> klepas: yes :)
<klepas> No, major decisions in launchpad
<troy_s> ogra:  There are 100000s of people who want to do the artwork.  They don't know how.  They don't know where.  They don't know.  There is no structure yet.
<klepas> decisions for example, concerning themed packages like tango-artwork are handled either via the ML or in a meeting through those 3-4 attending
<ogra> troy_s, they never showed up anywhere until mid dapper
<troy_s> ogra:  I disagree... I have been trying to figure out how the art team works since before warty :)
<troy_s> ogra:  It was SLOW going too... 
<ogra> troy_s, whom did you contact about it  ?
<klepas> Folks, there is no point breaking out skulls over how things were or weren't working
<ogra> yeah
<troy_s> klepas:  Agree.
<klepas> you can take it up later, please
<andreasn> agreed
<klepas> just one more thing and we can get some sleep (in my case)
<klepas> # Goals
<klepas> > Our primary goal is, although extremely simple and quite obvious,  
<Who_> The more the meeting progresses the more I see a need for art.ubuntu.com as a way of allowing _new_ contributors to contribute work for us to 'harvest' for potential inclusion....
<klepas> > something we have not managed to do: get our artwork, created  
<klepas> > collaboratively into mainstream!
<klepas> >
<klepas> > We can achieve this if we examine the existing artwork and their  
<klepas> > styles, locate areas that are lacking in consistent artwork, or  
<klepas> > artwork in general, prioritise and then collaboratively work to  
<klepas> > create some rocking artwork for Edgy and beyond!
<troy_s> I think that will require design docs.
<troy_s> So that we can optimize contributions.
<klepas> I think, I can say for all of us, we agree
<klepas> those guidelines will come
<troy_s> Yes.
<klepas> and will be part of the restructured wiki
<klepas> Et and I will make sure those happen :)
<Who_> kelpas: good. These will depend on the chosen artist in chief - as their resume will have many goals in it
<troy_s> We also need to agree
<troy_s> that despite our differences
<troy_s> we plan on working 100% for the Ubuntu project in whole.
<troy_s> Not subject to fracturing etc.
<troy_s> Kind of like a 1000 people pulling on a rock -- everyone needs to communicate effectively to make it move in a direction.
<klepas> of course :)
<klepas>  the results of the meeting now in terms of the use of the different developing technologies available to us will also be part of those guidelines (tech. A is used for this)
<troy_s> Perfect.
<troy_s> Phew.
<Who_> klepas: can we briefly revisit AUC when whe are done with goals?
<klepas> i think that's it Who_ 
<klepas> before you continue though
<klepas> one more notice
<troy_s> who_:  I think we agreed that AUC was basically backburnered until we sort our stuffs out.
<klepas> Thanks folks! I'll write up the minutes in summary, link to the logs and post it to the ML
<klepas> I'll contact Et
<andreasn> great
<klepas> and also mention the ML that we request a cease of major wiki edits
<klepas> as we will be working on it
<troy_s> klepas:  ONe note:
<Who_> troy_s: I was for that, but as my opinion has changed as a result of what people have said I thought others' might have done too
<klepas> we will also write up a bunch of guidelines in reference to the decisions reached this past hour
<Who_> thanks klepas for chairing!
<troy_s> klepas:  If you use headings and such for each topic, we can utilize the inherent wiki table of contents to list everything as opposed to manually having to set stuffs up.
<troy_s> WHo_:  I think a CMS is required... but now we need to get our three basic priorities sorted.  
<Who_> a CMS for AUC?
<klepas> troy_s: sounds cool. my wiki knowledge of moinmoin is limited but i think we'll figure it out :)
<troy_s> WHo_:  AUC is a CMS 
<troy_s> Who_:  ALbeit not a great one.  Diku (sp?) is better.
<klepas> So, as some might not be interested in the further AUC talks
<troy_s> klepas:  Look to your partner :)
<klepas> let me say cheers for coming
<troy_s> Ajourn?
<klepas> and thanks for everyone
<troy_s> Thanks for chairing klepas.
<Madpilot> troy_s, AFAIK a.u.c is built on the same CMS as the entire ubuntu.com main site uses
<klepas> Ajourn, essentially
<andreasn> thanks klepas 
<klepas> thank you, i'd be happy to do it again
<Who_> All I was going to say is: could it be the focus for many of the people who submit ubuntu-themed work for other sites like gnome-look.org, and then we can 'harvest' from it. It can be a way for people to get involved - whivh I think we quite unanimosly agree is difficult atm
<troy_s> Madpilot:  I heard a murmor that is was based on early art.gnome work.
<troy_s> Thanks all.
<troy_s> To the future.
<klepas> troy_s: affirmative
<troy_s> who_:  Terrific idea.
<andreasn> Who_, good idea
<troy_s> who_:  Centralize at gnome-look perhaps... I think that is a wise suggestion.  An admin would need to do this in news.
<klepas> we might want to continue further discussions back in our home channel now :)
<Who_> troy_s: can you explain that a bit more?
<troy_s> Agree... back to artwork
<andreasn> sure
<Who_> okay. see you all there
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<YannDinendal_>  /msg nickserv link YannDinendal mackay99
<YannDinendal>  /msg NickServ IDENTIFY mackay99
<ogra> ouch
<YannDinendal> lol
<YannDinendal> :(
<ogra> you should chane your PW :)
<neodreams> d'oh ;)
<ogra> *change
<YannDinendal> yes
<neodreams> encoding problem ?
<jenda> happens ;) But a publically logged channel is a good choice anyway 
<viper550> Art meeting today...
<neodreams> 4 hours ago
<neodreams> :p
<viper550> WHA?!?!?!
<neodreams> yep :P
<viper550> Oookay...what did I miss?
<neodreams> http://neodreams.ctech.ca/2006-06-17.txt log here
<ogra> neodreams, we also have the official ubuntu channel logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<ogra> in case there is nobody taking extra notes :)
<neodreams> ohhhhhhh, good to know :p
<viper550> So, the jist...
<viper550> I'll be working on some new cursors
<viper550> It's not that I hate Jimmac's cursors (although, they are nice, they even look good on Windows!)
<viper550> (can you make cursors as SVGs?)
<viper550> Wait...let's just move this to #ubuntu-artwork
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-18
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-11
<DarkSun88> Hi all
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-12
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 12 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Kernel Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<zul> do do do
<philth> do do do doooo
<philth> Smoooooke on the water..
<zul> hey
<BenC> hello
<philth> hi
<BenC> waiting for someone
<BenC> there he is :)
<BenC> Ok, agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<BenC> Team status will be short
<BenC> first I'd like to welcome amitk, just starting with us today
<BenC> amitk has a strong background in linux power savings and similar areas
* amitk waves
<BenC> kyle is currently at UME sprint, and rtg is away this week
<BenC> going to skip around in the agenda. I don't want cr3 to sit idle watching our discussions, so lets get the KVM stuff out of the way first
<BenC> I did a test logon to the KVM this morning with cr3, and it went pretty well
<BenC> so this should give us some excellent access to machines in their centre
<BenC> cr3: did you have any comments on the kvm at this point?
<dholbach> Rock On, amitk!
<BenC> Guess not, let's move on :)
<BenC> heno: I assume you are representing the debian-qa team for that agenda item?
<BenC> err, distro-qa
<heno> BenC: indeed
<zul> debian-qa?
* BenC smacks head
<heno> yes, I'm a DD now ;)
<cr3> BenC: should I mention the 3 annoyance points discussed together?
<BenC> cr3: I think they are worth mentioning, yes
<cr3> so, after testing the KVM setup with BenC this morning, these are three annoyance points which I would like to address before the next meeting:
<cr3> 1. requiring a VPN to the certification network might conflict with local addresses
<cr3> 2. list of machines in machines.txt is a pain, I really hate how machines are scattered all over the place: text file, salesforce and wiki. I really want this to all appear in the hardware certification website, if that makes sense to everyone too.
<cr3> 3. having to refer to machines by the kvm id is also a pain, might as well have a canonical id which can be used as a reference everywhere
<cr3> If there are point that should be given higher precedence, please let me know.
<BenC> the vpn is the ugliest...would be nice to have an ssh tunnel instead
<BenC> or even an stunnel with client side certs
<cr3> BenC: I had originally tried with an ssh tunnel but had problems, so vpn was the quick and dirty solution. I'll try again, I'm sure there's a way to get it working somehow
<BenC> cr3: if you need more testing, let us know
<cr3> BenC: thanks for the offer :)
<BenC> cr3: ok, thanks for dropping in and getting this setup done
<BenC> I've noted the items and the action item for working on killing vpn
<BenC> heno: so, what does distro-qa have in store? :)
<heno> Just wanted to introduce the distro-qa team. We will keep track of certain high impact bugs that originate from our HW testing, our partners of from support. My thinking is to assign hese to the kernel-team and give them a non-zero priority so they show up on everyone's radar. It's of course up to you how you divide that up within the team.
<heno> (just the kernel bugs, obviously)
<BenC> thank goodness :)
<BenC> assigning to kernel-team and giving priority is exactly how we handle bugs now...is there some way to flag the bugs that need more immediate attention?
<heno> They'll be subscribed to distro-qa and I can also tag them
<heno> I'll also feature certain bugs at the weekly distro meetings
<BenC> arbitrary tags are a complete mess we can't manage (or enforce)...so distro-qa subscribe sounds like a good filter
<heno> ok, cool. that's already in place
<BenC> ah, excellent
<heno> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~distro-qa/
<BenC> heno: would it make more sense to pull kernel related bugs into the kernel team meeting instead of distro? Only downside is we are bi-weekly
<heno> are the ones we are following so far
<cr3> heno: could HW testing or support tag the bugs for you?
<cr3> heno: reason I offer is that we already have to set milestone and perhaps priority, so setting a tag wouldn't be any more work
<heno> BenC: if I could email a list to someone to present here that might work well
<heno> cr3: right, I still have to think a bit about how best to group these
<heno> people have mixed luck with tags, as Ben says
<BenC> heno: sure, email me lists as you feel appropriate and I'll add it to the agenda for our meetings
<BenC> might be more focused than the distro meetings
<heno> so, just a heads up for now. I'll work more on this process and we'll speak in London
<BenC> sounds like a plan
<heno> right, that's true
<heno> thanks, that's it from me
<BenC> heno: I might just make it a rolling agenda item to discuss high prio distro-qa kernel bugs
<BenC> we can update the bug status based on the discussion
<BenC> add comments and such
<heno> good idea
<BenC> heno: ok, thanks for your time. In London, the kernel team will be having frequent break out sessions to handle some coordination, so we can do something with you as well
<heno> great, let's schedule a session
<heno> on this and bug workflow in general
<heno> pop quiz: how many open bugs against the kernel today? :)
<BenC> gutsy, about 25 :)
<zul> alot
<BenC> feisty is like 700-800
<heno> BenC: which is great, because that's the important number
<heno> about 3000 total
<heno> but much of that is just noise at this point
<heno> (which is an issues in itself)
<heno> we should consider some mass closings at some point, at least at EOL
<BenC> I did that for 2.6.12, IIRC
<heno> ah, right, yeah the old ones are nearly empty
<BenC> So let's move on to gutsy kernel hand-off
<zul> goodie
<BenC> amitk, pkl_: Unfortunately, it's just us 3 here. I would rather do this with all 5 of us, but I can't hold off on it, so we'll start here, and I'll bring kyle and rtg up to speed later
<BenC> The basic idea here is that gutsy kernel is where all the action should be at, but because of my initial process for "each team member is responsible for a kernel", it's become quite isolated
<BenC> I want to totally, over a period of time of course, get my hands off it, and get the rest of the team working on it
<BenC> as a group
<BenC> the only twitch to this process is git is funky when we're working with w rebased tree and > 1 developer accessing it with the intention of writing to it
<BenC> once 2.6.22 is released, this wont be much of an issue anymore, since the rebase will stop
<BenC> so we need a good process for you guys to not step on each others changes
<BenC> or at least, good communication about who is doing what, and when someone plans a rebase to linux-2.6.git
<BenC> but aside from the technical issue, the process should just be a free-for-all of everyone doing whatever needs to be done
<BenC> with normal discussion on kernel-team@ for anything that would be considered questionable
<amitk> why can't we all have our own trees, and we (individually) are responsible for rebasing to the gutsy tree?
<zul> thats what kind of happens now doesnt it?
<BenC> amitk: you can have your own tree, and you can keep it on kernel.ubuntu.com if you want
<BenC> but the lifetime of changes in that tree are going to be very very short
<zul> what I would do is send an email to kernel-team@ with a diffstat asking for a merge *shrug*
<zul> doh..
<zul> ls
<BenC> how this is all going to work will be a work in progress...there are three goals to this: 1) Get the team working on stuff, and 2) Get the team working together more closely, and 3) Give me more time to step back from day-to-day dev stuff so I can make sure the rest of the team has what it needs to get things done
<BenC> So this is a heads up of some upcoming process changes in our devel cycle, and some expectations of what you guys will need to do
<BenC> any questions? :)
<zul> nope but I guess the community people is involved with that stuff as well?
<pkl_> BenC: none at the moment...  It all sounds quite sensible, the test will come when we try to do the co-ordination in practice.
<BenC> they can be, yes...but frankly my focus is on making sure that people we hired have work to do
<amitk> who QAs the code?
<BenC> amitk: most original code we write gets sent to kernel-team@ list, and needs at least one other person to sign-off on it
<BenC> amitk: we try to mirror normal upstream kernel development as much as possible to make it easier for people to work with us who are already used to working with lkml/git/linus (and vice versa)
<BenC> but we're kind of making kernel-team == Linus in that comparison
<amitk> there is no problem till someone decides to rebase to Linus' tree, right?
<BenC> right, and that shouldn't happen often, and it only happens until our target version is released (2.6.22, right now)
<BenC> it's a quirk, but a big one...some one will have to say "heads up, I'm doing a rebase this weekend, so push all your changes if you want to make things easier"
<amitk> will a fixed rebase schedule help?
<BenC> yeah, that's what I'm thinking
<BenC> friday night rebase parties :)
<amitk> so we rebase once (or twice) a week, say, wed and fri, and deadline to get code in is previous day
<BenC> twice a week is probably good, after hours, maybe someone different can do it each time
<BenC> action item for me, create schedule for rebase during devel cycle, create upload schedule matching milestone releases
<BenC> process for rebase, process for group development on devel tree
<BenC> I think we're good for today unless anyone has any last minute issues to bring up?
<pkl_> after hours in the US for the Europe based people will be really after hours.  In practice this will probably mean early in the morning...
<BenC> pkl_: we'll make it a UTC time frame, everyone will just need to be aware of how it affects their work day
<BenC> something like 17:00 UTC
<BenC> ok, thanks everyone for joining, especially to heno and cr3 for taking time to talk with us
<BenC> adjourned
<PriceChild> mc44, smells
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team
<shawarma> @schedule copenhagen
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 13 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team
<fabbione> @schedule aalborg
<fabbione> :)
<shawarma> :)
<shawarma> ECITYTOOSMALL
<fabbione> it just doesn't know about continental dk TZ.... :)
<fabbione> shawarma: btw.. the last weekend in June i will be in rhus/Randers
<shawarma> fabbione: I'll be leaving for the server sprint that Friday, unfortunately. My girlfriend is there with her father the week leading up to it and then we have the weekend together over there.
<fabbione> shawarma: oh right.. too bad...
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-13
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team
<RichEd> hi edubunteros ... meeting delayed for a bit ... we'll probably start around :30 past the hour
<ogra> me waves
* RichEd waves back ...
<RichEd> right kicking off with TECHNICAL
<ogra> sorry, i'm a bit confused now
<ogra> weird day
<ogra> so, tech
* RichEd hands the mike to oliver ...
<ogra> we released tribe1 on last thursday
<ogra> since then i have redone much of the ltsp architecture, it doesnt ues nfs anymre but nbd and uses a squashfs image instead of a plain failesystem over the network
<ogra> all in all its booting about twice as fast now
<RichEd> ogra: for all LTSP or just the classmate
<highvoltage> ogra: that sounds weird (but extremely wonderful)
<ogra> (boottime was our biggest concdern this release)
<RichEd> good news on the half speed boot :)
<RichEd> sorry double speed / half time :)
<highvoltage> ogra: I never liked NFS
<ogra> RichEd, thats ltsp only, but much of the code i write for this overlaps with the classmate
<highvoltage> ogra: so tribe 1 already supports the nbd LTSP?
<ogra> highvoltage, sbalneav measures 73sec vs 140sec yesterday with the first implementation
<ogra> thats still not the end of speedups
<ogra> we'll get to a minute or below
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<highvoltage> can you encrypt the filesystem?
<ogra> yes
<RichEd> hi DarkSun88
<highvoltage> oh great
<ogra> but thats not supported yet
<ogra> needs initramfs support
<highvoltage> well, just that it's technically possible is great
<ogra> beyond that, we now support swapping over the network from initrmfs
<RichEd> hi Hobbsee
<ogra> it detects if you have less than 48M and automatically adds swapspace from the server
<ogra> so its actually possible to boot 28M clients
<highvoltage> geez. ltsp is maturing very fast.
<ogra> as long as you make nbdswapd create the swapfiles in a tmpfs
* highvoltage starts tribe 1 download
<ogra> i'll write a howto for that after or for the gutsy release
<ogra> all the changes are *not* in tribe 1
<ogra> they are my work of the past week ... started all right after tribe1 was out
<Hobbsee> heya RichEd
<highvoltage> aah. so best would be to update my sources.list to gutsy, install new ltsp-server, then do a ltsp-build-client?
<ogra> so make sure to haave ltsp-server and ltsp-server-standalone 5.0.16 at least
<highvoltage> righto
<ogra> (.16 is just building, but i'd suggest to wait for it)
<highvoltage> I'll test it and make some noise about it. this is fantastic progres indeed.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> together with sbalneavs rewrite of ldm we'll have the best and fastets ltsp ever :)
<ogra> did i mention that ldm can do unencrypted X transport now ?
<highvoltage> and no one will ever have to use ltsp 4.2 any more
<highvoltage> no you didn't
<highvoltage> sbalneav mentioned that he was working on it before the summit
<ogra> the password handling goes still through ssh, but all X traffic is unencrypted if you set LDM_DIRECTX=True
<ogra> nah, thats from Gadi and a totally new idea
<ogra> instead f calling ssh -X we set DISPLAY=clientip:dpy
<ogra> so all features (localdev, sound) persist, and you have soe password security bu the same speed for X as XDMCP had
<ogra> so nobody can complain or has to use XDMCP anymore
<highvoltage> uhm... what does that leave then?
<ogra> anyway, thats it so far from tech
<highvoltage> it seems that LTSP will be just about complete
<ogra> very technical today :)
* RichEd gives oliver a round of applause for all of the improvements
* highvoltage too *clap* *clap* *clap*
<ogra> highvoltage, yes, if we have the gui maintenance tools we can just lean back and tunr a screw here and there for a while
<highvoltage> then the authentication team must just get going, so that we can have local apps too.
<ogra> the nice thing is that the squashfs/unionfs/nbd setup opens a ton of new opportuities
<ogra> starting from just using a liveCD squashfs instead of the client built one ... so you have a desktop kiosk ;)
<highvoltage> yeah, you could mount over a set of applications on another nbd mount over a union based on machine
<ogra> or instead of a tmpfs you can use a second ext2 writeable image on the server and have persistent workstations
<ogra> there are millions of new options we can gnerate products on :)
<ogra> i was eager to make that switch since ages but never had the balls :)
* highvoltage advises people who have shares in disk companies to sell their stock now
<ogra> this time i did and t seems it turns out very well
<ogra> so thats it about tech ... any questions ?
<ogra> RichEd, btw, classmate is stil waiting for the wlan driver from Ben
<RichEd> ogra: has he got it working and waiting to get it to you, or still busy ?
<ogra> i had some apology mails from him and he knows its urgent but didnt send me anything yet
<ogra> i dont know to be honest
<ogra> i hope to get something soon
<RichEd> okay ... on a related note, willvdl and I met with some Intel people today in Cape Town ... they are here for the WEF
<ogra> nice
<RichEd> It was (Sir) John Davies who heads up the sales side of Willie's development.
<ogra> ah, very cool
<RichEd> He is also head of the Intel World Ahead programme that is looking at "the next billion PC users"
<RichEd> So they do the Classmate, and some other low spec, low energy rugged devices
<ogra> "canonical ... the company that does business with knights" :)
<RichEd> Another link in the Intel chain, so they will introduce me to various people on the ground.
<ogra> great
<RichEd> ...
<RichEd> finished with tech ?
<ogra> yep, unless there are open questions
* highvoltage can't think of anything
<RichEd> anyone ? questions ?
<RichEd> Move on to Artwork then ...
<ogra> do we have anything for art?
<highvoltage> ogra: I'll ask you questions when I test, there's bound to be some then
<ogra> highvoltage, right
<RichEd> Pete is not around for art ... anyone else have anthing to raise / say ?
<ogra> i also need to document the new stuff i guess :)
<highvoltage> is aliasvegas still around? I haven't heard from her in a long time
<ogra> nope, i dont think so
<RichEd> cx33 is in and out ... not as much as usual
<ogra> and pete wanted to cut his participation time a bit
<RichEd> I'll clear up his and her commitment when I see him next time in #edubuntu
<highvoltage> we didn't really have an artwork bof at the uds, did we? perhaps that is something we should re-visit at some stage.
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok
<ogra> well, we'Re supposed to get easy changeable artwork from ubuntu, dont we ?
<RichEd> ken wimer has agreed to help out ...
<RichEd> to take any suggestions or examples from us, and then make them professional for the product
<ogra> so that would be the ubuntu art stuff with changed colors and different logo
<ogra> i know ken is working on an easy procedure for derivatives here
<RichEd> ogra: yes, we can vary it, but keep it within the general flavour theme
<ogra> right
<ogra> only ldm is a bit different, but i'll care for that and do a gdm ripoff for the art
<RichEd> ogra: cool ... you can hack it if you want, and ken will polish the idea
<ogra> right
<Hobbsee> ogra: edubuntu wouldnt have use for an edubuntu-restricted-extras as ubuntu & kubuntu has, would it?  (not the manager, just a metapackage of all the extra packages for codecs, etc).   If so, the ubuntu-restricted-manager is now done sanely for multiple flavours.
* Hobbsee has only just remembered, sorry
<ogra> Hobbsee, edubuntu uses ubuntu as a base ...
<ogra> so an ubuntu-restricted-somethig will be used
<ogra> we dont need extra packages for this
<Hobbsee> ogra: fair enough.  wasnt sure if there were specific needs for edubuntu.  <goes back to lurking>
<ogra> Hobbsee, there is an edubuntu-kde metapackage planned ... that should indeed depend on the KDE variant ;)
<Hobbsee> that'd be cool
<ogra> well i'm all for it, but am waiting for someone to take up the maintenance of that
<ogra> we dont have many KDE peoplein edubuntu so it should be someone from the kubuntu crowd who maintais the seeds for it
<RichEd> anything more in art then ?
<ogra> doesnt look like
<RichEd> Moving on to Documentation ...
<RichEd> willvdl has some stuff to add here but he does not seem to be online atm ...
<RichEd> ogra: has sbalneav done any more LTSP doc stuff ?
<ogra> nope
<RichEd> and anyone else with a doc topic ?
<ogra> and i'm more happy having him coding on the new ldm than having him writing docs
<RichEd> :)
<ogra> docs are something we *can* fix out of sync ... code needs to be tested early in a release cycle
<RichEd> okay ...
<ogra> so dot drag him away from the code ;)
<ogra> *dont
<jsgotangco> +1
<RichEd> Web Sites then ...
<RichEd> again will has some updates ... but he is not here as above
<ogra> pips1 and him discussed some website stuff last week iirc
<ogra> but i wasnt following closely
<RichEd> From my side, I am working with Gerry (the new PRO & marketing guy in Canonical) to put some generic edubuntu & ubuntu education stuff on the ubuntu.com web site
<ogra> great
<RichEd> Also, sort of related, I did an interview with THE Journal last week ... Technology in Higher Education
<RichEd> Circulation of 90,000 in the US
<RichEd> And an online version.
<ogra> wow
<RichEd> Also: Hello,
<RichEd> We're reviewing Edubuntu in our next issue. So two things
<highvoltage> there's some problem with the server atm, it needs a bit of a software update for drupal 5
<RichEd> Kathy Ishizuka
<RichEd> Technology Editor
<RichEd> School Library Journal
<highvoltage> I've been meaning to ping the sysadmins about that, will do so today/tomorrow
<RichEd> and <quote>
<RichEd> . Also, our reviewer is so enthusiastic about the product that we'd like to provide CDs at the American Association of School Librarians conference this October, where he will be featuring his top tech picks.
<RichEd> <endquote>
<RichEd> So edubuntu is making some nice waves in the US ...
* ogra got  a thank you mail tday from an ubuntustudio user who runs it over ltsp :)
<ogra> "But WOW!! What a terrific system we now have, and what a terrific job
<ogra> you guys have done!!  UbuntuStudio's desktop is what win vista should
<ogra> have been - brilliant and elegant.
<ogra> "
<RichEd> cool :)
<ogra> "UbuntuStudio running
<ogra> on a dual-quad xeon (8 cpu's) Intel server motherboard with 6 gb ram, 6
<ogra> removable SATA hard disks, as an ltsp server.  The ltsp software was
<ogra> installed following the guidance in the UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall. The
<ogra> server is driving six high-res Neoware terminals, and I had the Rolling
<ogra> Stones playing on the speakers at my terminal where I took the
<ogra> screenshot. "
<ogra> :)
<RichEd> And this from a Canonical Partner:
<RichEd> >>> Right now we are looking to place a server w/20 Edubuntu (for the
<RichEd> >>> extras it provides) clients. The ultimate goal is to add 200 thin
<RichEd> >>> clients thoughout the school.
<ogra> wow
<RichEd> So a good week for PRO
<ogra> that will need a little server farm
<highvoltage> ogra: :)
* RichEd sings old macdonald
<ogra> heh
<RichEd> ogra: they do low spec devices specifically for Open Source, and want to put a sales bundle together for:
<RichEd> It looks like we could set up a fairly standard package like this for
<RichEd> schools, municipalities, internet cafes, etc.
<RichEd> We should put a bundle together!
<ogra> yeah
<RichEd> http://projects.powerdeveloper.org/project/efika/338
<ogra> well, it would be nice if i could get one of the devices in advance
<RichEd> Okay ... Community
<ogra> to find any possible drawbacks
<RichEd> (ogra: I'll ask them for one)
<ogra> great, thanlks
<RichEd> pips1 is busy with the commuity site, and has some people contributing (like David Trask)
<ogra> or at least they should tell me the specs, i have a ton of thin clients around here, its likely i have the one or a similar one they want to use
<RichEd> ogra: they build the devices ... you can see specs here:
<ogra> oh, right, i still havent pulled off the pic of my camera
<ogra> pics
<RichEd> http://www.genesippc.com/openclient.php
<ogra> urgh
<RichEd>  Specifications are as follows:
<RichEd>     * Freescale MPC5200B PowerPC SoC up to 400MHz
<RichEd>     * 128MB 266MHz DDR RAM
<RichEd>     * 10/100Mbit/s Ethernet
<RichEd>     * 2x USB ports
<RichEd>     * 1x RS232 Serial port
<ogra> we dont support ppc anymore
<RichEd>     * Stereo Audio out, Microphone and Line-input
<RichEd>     * RoHS Compliant
<RichEd> :(
<ogra> since edgy
<RichEd> they put projects together to acheive aims, so perhaps they can look at this with some partners
<ogra> we still have a ppc build but no officially supported one
<RichEd> well we can test their device and help them iron out kinks - hopefully
<ogra> the specs look great though
<ogra> would make a nice ltsp setup
<ogra> but we wouldnt be able to officially support it
<RichEd> indeed :) looks quite neat as well
<ogra> unless our marketing strategy changes
<RichEd> Well they are a partner ... so maybe we can bend over a bit
<ogra> indeed
<RichEd> Okay last topic, Management:
<ogra> but we dont give support for the pcc packages
<ogra> thats the main prob
<RichEd> From my side: I must get some projects going to help build community, as soon as I have finished the planning exercise we are busy with.
<RichEd> I've asked people to comment on the first draft of the objectives which are here:
<RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/Objectives
<RichEd> Feel free to mail me comments / suggestions.
<RichEd> Note that I will need to relate the objectives back to the company strategy (i.e. the ones that the paid people will commit to) ...
<RichEd> But ideas for community goals are welcome ...
<RichEd> back in a sec ...
<RichEd> Anything else for today ?
* ogra doesnt think so
<ogra> LaserJock old me he wanted to work on the addonCD enhancements over the weekend
<ogra> he seemed to have some concrete ideas about grouping the app istall entries
<ogra> but he hasnt come back to me yet
<RichEd> okay ... hopefully he will share them with us for comment
<RichEd> anything else ?
<ogra> nope
<RichEd> okay ... lets wrap it up ... and let ogra make plans for sweden :)
<ogra> heh
<RichEd> going once ...
<RichEd> going twice ...
<RichEd> okay ... done ...
<ogra> yay
<RichEd> Thanks all, and again thanks to ogra for the LTSP improvements
* RichEd waves goodbye ... and moves back to #edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<coreymon77> man
<coreymon77> is ther still no word about the next community council meeting?
<coreymon77> its already halfway through the month!
<juliux> coreymon77, check http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for the next date
<coreymon77> it says that it will be announced
<coreymon77> which is kinda surprising
<coreymon77> since there are supposed to be 2 a month and its already halfway through the month
<coreymon77> im just hoping that it will be soon
<dholbach> coreymon77: I asked the other CC members for a date we agree on
<dholbach> coreymon77: it will be announced as soon as we have a suitable date
<coreymon77> oh ya
<coreymon77> and im in the eastern time zone
<coreymon77> so could you possibly make it so that the time isnt rediculous for m
<coreymon77> e
<dholbach> I can't promise that
<dholbach> but we'll announce shortly
<coreymon77> could you try?
<dholbach> write to community-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<bashelier> hey dholbach
<bashelier> dholbach: do you have an aproximative idea of the date ? in one week ? :)
<dholbach> bashelier: roughly, yes
<bashelier> rock'n'roll
<dholbach> but I can't make promises, so please try to be patient and wait for the announce :)
<bashelier> dholbach: I'll do, thanks :)
<effraie> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-14
<jona_> Hi
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<calc> also notice the channel itself says 16:00 (oops) ;)
<Riddell> calc: that comes from friday, nixternal is changing it now
<Riddell> err
<Riddell> calc: that comes from fridge, nixternal is changing it now
<nixternal> it should refresh here shortly
<calc> ok
<Keybuk> in reality, the times of the meeting are 16:00 Europe/London and 21:00 Europe/London
<Keybuk> the UTC gets adjusted depending on the time of year
<Keybuk> if it could be entered into a calendar like that, it would work
<pitti> #include <hello.h>
* fabbione is here
<bryyce> heya all
<asac> HELLO_MAIN(asac, waves)
<bdmurray> here
<heno> hello
* shawarma waves
<evand> hi
<dendrobates> hey all
<mathiaz> hello
<dholbach> ({#'sprintf, "Hello %s!\n", ({#'call_other, ({#'this_player}), "query_name" }) .... or something :)
* ogra waves 
<Keybuk> sorry about the timezone confusion, everybody
<ogra> :)
<heno> erm, yeah sorry :-/
* Hobbsee waves
<BenC> cjwatson: no sign of amit on either irc server...rtg still out of town I suspect, and kyle is en route to google so can't be on
<fabbione> db_get random_greeting
<fabbione> echo $RET
<fabbione> hellp
<Keybuk> no sign of mvo?
* calc is here
<BenC> you do need help if you quote debconf syntax for psuedo code :)
<dholbach> Keybuk: he said he'd be here - I'll call him (maybe still having his birthday cake or something)
<dholbach> he might still have thought it'd be one hour later
<fabbione> BenC: that would actually work module a template and sourcing debconf library :P
<fabbione> BenC: but yes.. i agreee..
<Keybuk> yes, I noticed that
<Keybuk> I almost added a new section to the agenda
<keescook> dholbach: scheme? lisp?
<Keybuk> talking of which
<dholbach> Keybuk: line is busy - I'll retry
<Keybuk> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070614
<dholbach> keescook: LPC (I hacked in a MUD ages ago... :-))
<cjwatson> sorry I'm late; traffic sucked today
<keescook> dholbach: aaah, heh.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* bryyce waves to cjwatson
<calc> heh still showing UTC times
* cjwatson counts on fingers
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: hah.  you're close enough that you can :)
* Hobbsee uses kclock
<Keybuk> so, we have new starters today
* dendrobates yeah
<Keybuk> Amit, who most of you met at UDS, has joined the kernel team (but hasn't turned up to this meeting <g>)
<Keybuk> calc: has joined us to maintain OpenOffice.org
<Riddell> hi calc!
<shawarma> Hi, calc! Welcome to the team!
<calc> hello everyone :)
* keescook hugs calc
<mathiaz> hi calc
<asac> welcome calc!
* evand waves
<Keybuk> and dendrobates has joined as the Ubuntu Server Technical Lead
* BenC wondered why calc suddenly showed up in #kernel :)
* keescook hugs dendrobates
* dendrobates waves to everyone
<seb128> welcome calc
<shawarma> dendrobates: hi, boss! Welcome to the team. :)
<evand> welcome calc and dendrobates!
* BenC waves back
<mathiaz> welcome dendrobates
<asac> hi dendrobates
<dholbach> welcome dendrobates and calc :-)
<pitti> calc: all the best for OO.o!
<seb128> Hi dendrobates
* agoliveira waves all and apologises for being late 
<calc> pitti: thx
<Keybuk> for those keeping score, that brings the distro team up to 24 people
<Keybuk> agoliveira: that's ok, we weren't expecting you anyway
<Keybuk> agoliveira: those at conferences are excused if they can't make it ;)
<agoliveira> Thanks but I'm actually just wating in the lobby of the hotel so it made sense ;)
<Keybuk> 28 if you include mdz, cjwatson, heno and myself
<Riddell> I think you four count :)
<Keybuk> we still have quite a few more positions open
<Keybuk> so expect to grow by at least another 8 before the year is out
<iwj> We are *exploding*.
<iwj> I'm looking forward to meeting all you new guys in London.
<dholbach> yeah, me too :)
<Keybuk> Claire has reminded me to nag you all about booking your travel arrangements to London
<Keybuk> and once booked, please make sure you put them onto the wiki
<Keybuk> and if you have any particular room-mate preference, note that too
<cjwatson> we have a very short agenda this week; any more items for it?
<cjwatson> (not that I am complaining)
<agoliveira> anyone who does not snore and do not smoke is fine to me ;_
<ogra> agoliveira, not me then :)
<Riddell> no smoking in England by then
<cjwatson> agoliveira: smoking indoors will be illegal at that point
<BenC> agoliveira: very limiting choices :)
<fabbione> i snore like a tractor on steroids
<fabbione> BenC: can confirm that
<ogra> cjwatson, even outside smokers smell :)
<ogra> for people who care at least
<cjwatson> iwj: we need to play the distro team game in London; it's been some time
* Hobbsee cringes.  australian clean air is good!  :P
<cjwatson> and it's a lot harder now
<keescook> cjwatson: "the" distro team game?
<fabbione> keescook: you are too new for that :)
<cjwatson> that's "name all the members of the distro team. no notes allowed."
<fabbione> cjwatson: we did it in Oslo you and I...
<keescook> hah
<ogra> ouch
<shawarma> Ha!
<fabbione> cjwatson: including history :)
<mvo> hi
<iwj> Maybe we should have a field `snores (yes/no)' on the roommate list, to be filled in by the previous roommate :-).
<cjwatson> ok, agenda
<pitti> ugh, that really becomes tricky now
<cjwatson> (keescook) VMWare WS6 license needed
<dholbach> hi mvo
<bryyce> hehe
<ogra> iwj, i usually add it ...
<cjwatson> fabbione was chasing that up
<cjwatson> fabbione: no word, I gather?
<ogra> but then i usually add my data late :)
<Keybuk> before we move onto kees agenda
<fabbione> keescook: i mailed mdy 3 weeks ago..
<Keybuk> one other quick announcement
<fabbione> no news yet
<Keybuk> HAPPY BIRTHDAY MVO!
<fabbione> ehhe
<ogra> MVO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<keescook> \o/
* seb128 hugs mvo
* shawarma hugs mvo
<bryyce> congrats mvo
<iwj> mvo: Happy birthday!
<asac> mvo: happy birthday!!
<shawarma> Happy birthday, dude!
<evand> happy birthday
* dholbach hugs mvo too
* seb128 hugs mvo again ;)
<ogra> haha
<fabbione> cjwatson: nope.. i will try bitching^Wasking again tomorrow
<mathiaz> happy birthday !
<keescook> haha
<bdmurray> happy birthday mvo
<Hobbsee> hahaha
* agoliveira hugs mvo
<ogra> MVO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* seb128 hugs mvo_ again ;)
* dholbach hugs mvo too
<cjwatson> fabbione: ok, please mail distro-team if you hear anything useful
<dholbach> haha :)
<Hobbsee> someone paste the backscroll, if mvo_'s actually here...
<seb128> mvo_: your ISP is still loving you? ;)
<fabbione> cjwatson: will do as soon as i have info
* asac hugs mvo
<cjwatson> release readiness update
* mvo_ grumbles about his ISP
<keescook> cjwatson: I didn't intend it to be an agenda item, actually.  BenC, fabbione and mdy are all on it, afaik.  :)
* mvo_ hugs asac
<cjwatson> pitti: do you have a convenient link for tribe-2 bugs?
<cjwatson> keescook: *nod*
<Keybuk> I'll try and mail jp directly
<Keybuk> I may have more luck
<BenC> cjwatson: I got the licenses this morning from JP, mdy will add them to the wiki
<cjwatson> aha, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/tribe-2
<mvo_> thanks everybody for the happy birthday wishes!
<keescook> BenC: oh, very cool!
<pitti> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/tribe-2
<shawarma> for now we're supposed to use vmware 5.X, is that it? Becuase I'm too stupid to find a link to that anywhere on VMWare's homepage..
* mvo_ hugs Keybuk ogra shawarma seb128 dholbach
<pitti> it would be nice if everyone could take a look and check whether he can grab one of the unassigned ones
<fabbione> BenC: mail distro team directly? pointless to bounce trough me agian
<keescook> shawarma: I wasn't able to get 5.x working on 2.6.22 so I switched to ws6
<BenC> once they are on the wiki, I'll post to distro-team
<calc> query cjwatson
<Keybuk> BenC: thanks
<fabbione> BenC: ok thanks
* Keybuk cancels the e-mail
* Hobbsee hands calc a "/"
<agoliveira> Can I get one of those too? I'm doing the embedded tests on vmware as well.
<calc> Hobbsee: heh
<shawarma> keescook: Didn't BenC have a fix for that?
<pitti> Hobbsee: so you'll chase people for the copious KDE milestone bugs?
<BenC> I have a fix for 2.6.22+ws6, but nothing with 5.x
<agoliveira> BenC: Thanks.
<BenC> any-any isn't working either
<Hobbsee> any kde bugs listed on that tribe 2 list, i'm the contact for, i believe - so if anyone feels like fixing them, it might be worth checking with me if someone's already working on tehm, or has expressed interest in them
<shawarma> BenC: Ah, right. My bad.
<Hobbsee> pitti: typing, typing.  i'm a slow typer today
<cjwatson> Riddell: with regard to that kubuntu-desktop recommends bug
<cjwatson> Riddell: the general plan we had for Ubuntu was to identify the stuff that really makes up the important bits of an Ubuntu desktop - stuff like the panel, gnome-session, critical things
<pitti> BenC: there are quite a lot of kernel bugs on the tribe-2 list; anything that is particularly hard and probably won't make it for tribe-2?
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: right.
<cjwatson> but make many of the others Recommends so that they can be swapped out
<BenC> pitti: I'll review them today
<cjwatson> they will still be installed by default
<pitti> BenC: cheers
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: that was my view, but Riddell didnt really agree with me.
<cjwatson> it's one of the things that comes up in reviews quite a lot - people get confused when they have to remove the metapackages for stuff they should be able to replace
<BenC> bug #109320 is actually against evms
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 109320 in evms "evms blocks access to disk devices" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109320
<iwj> metapackages> If only we had proper implementation of Replaces ...
<BenC> Keybuk: did you do that patch and upload yet?
<Keybuk> BenC: not yet, see my update ealier
<Hobbsee> pitti: i'll be chasing people, yes.
<Keybuk> mostly waiting from upstream for comment
<iwj> I mean, we could do away with transitional packages.
<Keybuk> for comment from upstream
<Keybuk> speak like yodo, do I
<Riddell> cjwatson: if that's the policy that's fine with me, although there seems to be a higher threshold for critial things than you desribe above
<cjwatson> iwj: transitional yes, but I don't think that helps with -desktop
<BenC> pitti: they all look doable for tribe-2
<iwj> cjwatson: No, indeed.
<cjwatson> Riddell: I'm relatively easy about the precise place where the line is drawn
<keescook> *head explodey* etoomanyconversations
<iwj> cjwatson: Oh, I see what you meant now.  Yes, I agree.
<cjwatson> I've taken 120107
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: 108870 should be fix-released?
<seb128> bug #108870
<Hobbsee> bug 108870
<bdmurray> Riddell: could you look at bug 119408? it has not been confirmed yet
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 108870 in kubuntu-default-settings "[Feisty regression]  install two or more debian files with right click on them and install doesn't work" [Low,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/108870
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 119408 in kde-guidance "[gutsy]  kde-guidance power manager causes screen to turn off" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/119408
<cjwatson> pitti: I'm at debconf next week, so I might have to postpone bug 118744 to tribe-3
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 118744 in gfxboot "no gfxboot in gutsy with new syslinux" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118744
<Riddell> bdmurray: 108870 should go away with gdebi-kde
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: yes.  was going to double check it actually *fixed* the bug before i did that, though
<pitti> cjwatson: WFM, the current workaround works fine
<pitti> cjwatson: it's mainly a reminder to clean it up at some time before beta
<Riddell> bdmurray: 119408 I've heard some people say, and the other guidance developers have looked at it, but I'm not sure if we found a reason it affects some people
<cjwatson> pitti: yes
<bdmurray> Riddell: okay, if you need some testing done let me know
<cjwatson> BenC: linux-backports-modules-2.6.22?
<BenC> cjwatson: oof, yeah, need to get that out
<cjwatson> should be trivial
<BenC> empty upload, Just Do It
<BenC> get it out with next kernel upload
<fabbione> BenC: i need my toys with the next upload please...
<cjwatson> ok, I don't think there's much else to discuss here, then
<cjwatson> any other business?
<BenC> fabbione: I got something you can play with :P
<fabbione> BenC: cows?
<pitti> I did some anastacia/MIR/cruft cleanup today, will do some more in the future
<bdmurray> Hug Day schedule
<BenC> fabbione: yes, gfs1/gfs2 will be ready next upload
<pitti> s/future/next couple of days/
<fabbione> BenC: cool thanks
<BenC> fabbione: they sometimes fetch pine cones
<fabbione> ROFL
<cjwatson> bdmurray: how did the last one go? I didn't see a whole lot in #ubuntu-devel, but perhaps there was more in #ubuntu-bugs
<seb128> pitti: I'll give you an hand on that, I did some source NEW, syncs and backports cleaning this week
<bryyce> yeah I think most of the action was in #ubuntu-bugs
<bdmurray> cjwatson: it went well bryce and kees did a lot of work
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: i got the amarok upstream guys helping to triage the amarok bugs :D
<pitti> seb128: you rock
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: excellent
<seb128> pitti: you too ;)
<bdmurray> yeah, that was great too
<Hobbsee> yep
<cjwatson> bdmurray: what would you like the schedule to be?
<cjwatson> or are we talking about the developer assignments?
<seb128> there was quite some activity in #ubuntu-bugs yesterday
<dholbach> seb128 did a lot too and I managed to get a bunch of bugs tagged as 'packaging', 'needs-packaging', 'bitesize' and 'upgrade'
<bdmurray> Next one should be the 27th I think so I'm wondering who will be available then
<cjwatson> is the rota on the wiki somewhere?
<bdmurray> The one after that is a bit odd as 2 weeks would be the distro sprint
<fabbione> bdmurray: that might be more fun
<fabbione> with all of us in the same room..
<bdmurray> cjwatson: do you mean the Hug Day schedule or the volunteers?
<cjwatson> bdmurray: the latter
<fabbione> we just need to figure who cleans the blood from the walls
<bdmurray> fabbione: my concern there would be it would less talking on IRC
<bdmurray> cjwatson: no, that isn't in the wiki
<fabbione> bdmurray: you would be surprised how 10 nerds in a room spend more time talking on IRC than face to face :)
<dholbach> bdmurray: I think everybody of us is geeky enough to talk on IRC even if we are sitting in the same room ;-)
<calc> so someone needs to bring duct tape ;)
* fabbione casts his "waitress" spell
<heno> I don't think there is a rota; we should set one up
<cjwatson> I think that would help, so that we can see who's gone before
<cjwatson> heno: will you take care of that?
<bdmurray> The week before the sprint would be closer to the Tribe 2 release though.
<Hobbsee> bdmurray: i'd agree with you @ the less talking on irc - it becomes very much a canonical-only event that wya - or the feeling of it.
<heno> sure, anyone esp. interested in joining the next bug day? ...
<cjwatson> ACTION: heno to set up skeleton bug day developer rota and mail to distro-team
<cjwatson> heno: let's get it up in a form that people can add to it, and we can hassle folks later
<heno> right
<cjwatson> bdmurray: I'd be happy with the week before the sprint
<cjwatson> if you're happy to have bug days in two consecutive weeks
<bdmurray> I think that makes more sense than waiting until after Tribe 3
<cjwatson> amitk: welcome, although we're just finishing up ;-)
<bdmurray> However, there is a US holiday on July 4th which is a Wednesday
<amitk> cjwatson: sorry, I lost track of time
<agoliveira> Sorry guys, got go. Boss is calling! Bye!
<calc> bdmurray: thu should be fine at least for the US
<calc> bdmurray: but yea you probably won't find many people in the US online on july 4th ;)
<bdmurray> so 6/27 and 7/5 then?
<heno> sounds good
<bdmurray> and then 7/25
<bdmurray> which is after Tribe 3
<cjwatson> that works
<cjwatson> we should be settling down pretty well with feature development by then
<bryyce> one thing that might be worthwhile would be to define a goal, like close 300 bugs (1% of total)
<Hobbsee> there was an aim yesterday of dropping it to 30K bugs.  that seemed useful
<cjwatson> recent bug days seem to have been trying to tackle particular sets of problems, so goals in line with those would be good
<calc> looks like ~ 70 new bugs since the bug day yesterday
<heno> right, and other parts of triage than just cosing bugs are important as well
<seb128> Hobbsee: did it success to go under the 30k line? ;)
* bryyce nods to Hobbsee
<calc> seb128: hit around 30070
<calc> http://people.ubuntu-in.org/~carthik/bugstats/
<Hobbsee> seb128: i think it was down to 30080.  what calc said.
* Hobbsee went to bed.
<keescook> I love that our goal is no longer "make bugs reduce in number" but has moved on to "get below some number".  nice work.  :)
<Hobbsee> sigh.  and then it went back up again.
<heno> so when are we turning apport back on for gutsy?
<Hobbsee> what i want to know is where the heck all these bugs are.
<seb128> keescook: let's enjoy the week where apport is not running :p
<bdmurray> I think a fair number of the new ones were sync requests
<keescook> seb128: heheh
<heno> that will bring the exponential growth back ...
<pitti> I really want to wait until we get the private bug filing
<calc> Hobbsee: a huge chunk of bugs are on oo.o
<Hobbsee> ahhh
<pitti> the fix for that is in review
<pitti> also, dup detection is online now, so I hope it won't get that bad
<seb128> pitti: there is no hurry
<asac> pitti: ETA?
<zul> Hobbsee: i think there is over 700 kernel bugs as well
<pitti> asac: I don't know, next LP rollout I hope
<Hobbsee> ah, fair enough
<asac> pitti: i would prefer to get firefox crashes on asap
<heno> I wonder if there is an optimal time in the cycle to get crash reports?
* Hobbsee attempts to figure out how private bugs and apport fit together.  oh, apport being able to file private bugs?
<pitti> asac: right; but we shuold really stop people from exposing their login credentials etc. to the public
<cjwatson> heno: right after finishing whatever feature you've just been working on, IME
<shawarma> Hobbsee: Yes.
<seb128> Hobbsee: yes, for crashers
<Hobbsee> right.
<pitti> private bugs -> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CrashReporting please
<pitti> Hobbsee: ^
<asac> pitti: yes ... but we did that for a long time ... so a week or so won't hurt imo :)
<calc> hmm i only see 123 bugs on openoffice.org scribblers page but i am pretty sure there are a lot more than that
<asac> pitti: but yes, i agree that private is important
<iwj> Has the thing been fixed where you get three mails about every crash ?
<iwj> It's really only useful to get at most one.
<cjwatson> calc: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openoffice.org says 491
<iwj> Also, TBH I think it would be better not to regard apport crashes as bugs per se.
<cjwatson> 6 on -l10n
<dholbach> 4 on -amd64
<shawarma> iwj: How do you figure that?
<pitti> iwj: indeed; there are some plans, if you are interested, let's talk about it in #devel
<Hobbsee> pitti: looks sane.
<calc> cjwatson: yea i guess just 123 are assigned to the group or something to that effect
* heno agrees with iwj
<iwj> pitti: OK.
<asac> pitti: if you talk about that, summon me please :)
<calc> there are slightly over 500 bugs for all the openoffice packages scribblers maintains
<pitti> asac: noted
<iwj> shawarma: I get about one report a month of a crash or other similar malfunction in dpkg and these nowadays almost invariably turn out to be `user has completely broken computer and pureed filesystem'.
<pitti> calc: so, good luck with fixing all of them until tribe-2
* pitti ducks
<calc> pitti: lmao
<cjwatson> ok, can the rest of this go to #ubuntu-devel?
<bdmurray> calc: relatively speaking it isn't that many though
<cjwatson> it sounds like we're done here
<iwj> dpkg isn't that huge a memory user.  So extrapolating, I imagine that a fair proportion of crash reports in oo.o and firefox and the like are just bad hardware.
<shawarma> iwj: Right, but as a general rule, don't you think an apport generated bug report represents an actual bug?
<cjwatson> certainly ubiquity bugs are disproportionately bad hardware
<iwj> shawarma: In the case of dpkg clearly the answer is no.
<cjwatson> although the ones that aren't are significant
<calc> bdmurray: yea only about 1.7%
<shawarma> iwj: hence "general rule". :)
<bdmurray> so Hobbsee asking about where they all are is a good question
<bdmurray> or interesting
<iwj> `As a general rule, all X are Y'  `No, here is a big subclass of X which are usually not'.
* mvo blames bad hardware usually too when apt crashes
<iwj> What you mean is `As a general rule, most X are Y' which may be true but we don't know.
<iwj> Anyway.
<calc> bdmurray: is there a way to extract a report of bugs per package to get a top offending list?
<iwj> Are we planning to have the team dinner on the Friday night or earlier ?  I'm just thinking about people missing flights, you understand :-).
<Hobbsee> bdmurray: i'd like to see a https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-team/+packagebugs for all bugs in ubuntu, but i havent badgered the #launchpad guys as to how feasible it is, and to get an ETA on it.
<iwj> (I mean, for the London sprint.)
<cjwatson> Keybuk: do you know? I hadn't heard
<shawarma> iwj: I did not know that dpkg bugs were really a big subclass of Ubuntu bugs. I would have expected dpkg to have extraordinarily few bugs reported, actually.
<Keybuk> cjwatson: Friday, I understand
<Keybuk> I don't care, as long as it's not at Pizza Express
<Keybuk> ;)
<bdmurray> calc: bugnumbers -p --stats I think
<bryyce> mmm pizza
<keescook> iwj: I'd love the dinner to be Wed or earlier; I'm only there a half week
<bryyce> $ bugnumbers -p --stats
<bryyce> Package '--stats' not found.
<cjwatson> sprint dinner requests -> distro-team
<dholbach> bdmurray:  -p openoffice.org ?
<calc> ah bughelper
<cjwatson> sounds like we're done, then
<cjwatson> adjourned
<dendrobates> What exactly would be on a British pizza?
<dholbach> thanks
<bryyce> cya
<mvo> thanks
<shawarma> iwj: /win 55
<shawarma> whoops
<evand> thanks
<bdmurray> bryyce: it might be in the bzr tree only
<Keybuk> shawarma: /lose 60
<Riddell> dendrobates: in Edinburgh, deep fried
<dendrobates> ha
<bdmurray> dholbach: yeah ./bugnumbers -p openoffice.org --stats
<Riddell> hope to see lots of people in Edinburgh next week
<shawarma> Keybuk: No fair!
<dholbach> bugnumbers love for everybody
<cjwatson> dendrobates: smog
<mathiaz> thks. bye
<keescook> bye all
* mvo leaves to celebrate his birthday
<dendrobates> bye
<dholbach> bye mvo
<pitti> thanks all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-15
<effraie> @schedule paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
<AndyP> @schedule london
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 16 Jun 18:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 21:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 19:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 21:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
<AndyP> @now
<AndyP> !now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 15 2007, 11:32:11 - Next meeting: Xubuntu Developers in 1 day
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
* Hobbsee pokes for life
<Hobbsee> hiya persia
<lionel> Hi Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> :)
<geser> Hi Hobbsee
<shawarma> o/
<persia> Hi Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> :)
<shawarma> I'll be running off Real Soon Now[tm] , though.
<lionel> shawarma: looking at the agenda, it should be a short meeting
<shawarma> Not short enough. :)
* Hobbsee looks for the agenda and such
<Hobbsee> if we have no chair, it doenst look like much of a meeting anyway
<persia> Hobbsee: You could chair :)
<Hobbsee> persia: i could, but i dont know the agenda
<geser> Hobbsee: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings :)
<persia> Meeting Agenda is available from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings.  First item appears to be clamav.
<Hobbsee> geser: -EJUSTGOTHOMEFROMWORK
<Hobbsee> okay, anyone got any thoughts about what to do with clamav then?
<geser> is there a page (or mail) which summerizes the problems?
<geser> I remember that libclamav has over 20 rdepends
<persia> I think the agenda item was added as a prod due to the lack of a coherent plan since the last meeting.  Perhaps someone should be assigned to document a plan for review by the next meeting?
<AndyP> iirc, it was suggested when ScottK added the item that it be discussed on the mailing list when he's around to give background and drive the discussion better
* persia moves that the agenda be advanced to "other business" in the absence of a clamav advocate.
<StevenK> Seconded.
<Hobbsee> other business:  taking over the wold.
<Hobbsee> and finding mvo a better connection.
<mvo> Hobbsee: NO FUN
<mvo> :)
<Hobbsee> :P
<StevenK> I think Telstra could provide a slightly better one.
* StevenK hides.
<persia> In other business, I'd like to thank the members of the U-U-S team for following the new procedure, and keeping the queue size generally in single digits in the last week.
<Hobbsee> haha
<Hobbsee> persia: yay!
* Hobbsee is just the bad leader, and hasnt touched it.
* StevenK is the bad leader-follower and also hasn't.
<StevenK> Anyway, Hobbsee and I are now -core-devs and are above such things.
<StevenK> Ahem, or something.
<Hobbsee> hah
* Hobbsee may be core dev, but is still interested in MOTU stuff.
<StevenK> Same. :-)
* persia moves that the agenda be advanced to "agree on date and time of next meeting"
<StevenK> In two weeks?
<StevenK> Maybe a few hours earlier?
<persia> 2007/06/29:11:00?
<StevenK> Sounds fine to me.
<StevenK> Anyone else?
<AndyP> +00?
<persia> AndyP: Right.  Sorry.  Yes, that's what I meant.
<StevenK> AndyP: I was assuming UTC, given it's 13:30UTC currently
<AndyP> ok, just being pedantic :)
<Hobbsee> assuming i'm not working, that's fine.  *shrugs*
* persia pokes the chair to solicit objections and finalise the meeting time
<StevenK> There's a chair?
<Hobbsee> i'd like to see a more concrete agenda and such - poke the ML earlier about the meeting, call for topics, etc
<StevenK> Make sure that people that are responsible for agenda items actually turn up? :-)
* persia volunteers to send a "Call for topics" mail on 24 June.
<zakame> there was a meeting? :D
<StevenK> zakame: You blinked and missed it.
<Hobbsee> persia: even a week before.  *shrusg*
<StevenK> Hobbsee: That is a week before.
* persia volunteers to send a "Call for topics" mail on 22nd June instead.
<Hobbsee> 5 days, unless my maths is crap :P
<Hobbsee> heh, right.
<zakame> lol
* persia requests accession to the suggested meeting time
<Hobbsee> +1
<TheMuso> +1
<StevenK> +1
<geser> +1
<Hobbsee> done.
* persia moves that the agenda be advanced to "agree on date and time of next Universe HUG DAY"
<Hobbsee> i think that was decided in yesterdays' distro meeting, wasnt it?
<persia> I thought that was for main.  Is there not a separate special Universe HUG DAY?  If not, perhaps it doesn't need to be in the standing agenda items.
<Hobbsee> dunno.  do we want a separate one?
<Hobbsee> i guess the more hugdays we have, the more bugs we lose
<zakame> any reason why have a separate one?
<zakame> oh, that
<persia> Would anyone volunteer to run one?  If we're counting on the bugsquad, I think we're limited by their schedule.  Prep would be generating lists of interesting bugs (like for other Hug Days), and promoting it.
<Hobbsee> bugsquad does, or should contain a lot of us anyway
<zakame> which interesting bugs, in the first place?
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<zakame> heya DarkSun88
<DarkSun88> Hi zakame
<persia> Hobbsee: RIght, but if we're going to run a MOTU Universe Bug Day, we should generate the lists.  Otherwise, it's not worth being separate: we're just creating work for those who schedule the normal bug days.
<persia> zakame: drafters choice, really.  Themes are fun.
<Hobbsee> persia: what kind of lists, though?  ie, what things do we want to target?
<persia> Hobbsee: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20070530 and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20070613 are recent lists for standard bug days.  What bugs do MOTUs want fixed?
<Hobbsee> all of them!
* persia thinks unmet deps might be a good one
<Hobbsee> it's still a bit early - i'd target them later
<persia> Hobbsee: Yes, but that doesn't work well for trying to make a page green, and seeing real progress :(
<Hobbsee> unconfirmed bugs, i suspect
<pochu> What about 'packaging' and 'upgrade' ?
* pochu waves
<AndyP> bugs tagged with packaging, bitesize, upgrade, ftbfs and unmetdeps, maybe https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs
<persia> Are there any volunteers to prepare a list of bugs to target?  The specific categories could be agreed in later discussion (we only have 10 minutes left, and aren't done with the agenda)
* persia seconds AndyP
<Hobbsee> i dont see how ftbfs bugs are useful to do, before upstream version freeze and such
<persia> Hobbsee: Because then we don't have to do them later :)
<Hobbsee> +1 for mailing list.  when do we want to do a REVU day?
<persia> (usually)
<Hobbsee> persia: deps will change with package changes
<AndyP> i think those bug lists carry the ulterior motive of introducing new contributors, which is the ulterior motive of the universe hug day
<persia> I'd agree to that, and would like to see more people learning how to update dependencies, track down build failures, and investigate crash reports.
<Hobbsee> actually, bughelper's learning mroe stuff now.  so we could go thru and use that
<Hobbsee> teach everyone how to use it
<persia> So anyway, there's effort to decide how to manage Universe HUG Day.  I propose that MOTU/Bugs be used as a base, that interested parties edit this in the meantime, and that 23rd June be Universe HUG DAY.
<persia> (all 49.5 hours of 23rd June)
<zakame> interesting
<Hobbsee> cool
* persia moves that the agenda quickly be advanced to "agree on date and time of next meeting MOTU Q&A sessions" so that meeting does not run over.
<StevenK> I missed the last one, how did it go?
<persia> StevenK: I (perhaps mis-) interpreted "cool" as "proposal accepted, and so agreeed".
<StevenK> persia: I didn't say 'cool', Hobbsee did
<persia> StevenK: Right.  Hobbsee's chair :)
<AndyP> persia: i think StevenK meant how did the last Q&A session go :)
<StevenK> Right.
<persia> My apologies then.
<persia> Right.  Did anyone present attend one of the recent MOTU Q&A sessions?  If so, could you please summarise the event, and whether it seemed to work well?
<persia> OK.  I suggest that no MOTU Q&A sessions be scheduled due to lack of interest.  Interested parties should announce the intent to schedule on ubuntu-motu@l.u.c and ubuntu-mentors@l.u.c with a schedule, as they find most convenient.
<tritium> persia: it might be schedule conflicts rather than lack of interest.  At least it was in my case.
<persia> tritium: When would work for you?
<tritium> persia: as much as I work, and especially travel, I wouldn't worry about my schedule, really.
<tritium> persia: I'm at UTC - 6, though
<persia> tritium: Perhaps I was unclear above, I seek only to move the agenda: if nobody has sufficient interest in MOTU Q&A sessions to propose a time, I don't believe this meeting can establish a time for the next session.
<tritium> ah, right
<dholbach> hi, sorry for being late
<persia> Hi dholbach:  We're currently on "agree on date and time of next meeting MOTU Q&A sessions".
<dholbach> what about in two weeks same time?
<dholbach> did 0 utc and 12 utc work ok?
<dholbach> no objections :)
* persia seconds dholbach's suggestion
<dholbach> ok super - so that'd be july 28th? 0 and 12 utc?
* dholbach will announce it later
<dholbach> any other business?
<dholbach> again... sorry for being late, I'll read up on the backlog and mail if there's anything to follow up
<dholbach> thanks everybody for turning up :)
<persia> dholbach: Other business was earlier.
<persia> Anyone want to draft minutes?
* persia drafts the minutes
<dholbach> thanks a lot persia
* persia moves the meeting be concluded
<dholbach> thanks everybody
* Hobbsee drafts persia, and clones him, over and over.
<persia> Hobbsee: :)
<Hobbsee> yay, many persias running around!
* persia suggests that would be farsicial [sic] , and hides.
* Hobbsee watches to make sure they dont kill each other off
<coreymon77> wow the community council meeting still isnt announced?
<coreymon77> tis already half way thorugh the month
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<coreymon77> ?
* nixternal strangles ubotu 
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 16 Jun 12:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 14:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 13:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
<coreymon77> thats all well and good, but im talking about the communty council, you knwo, to become a member?
<coreymon77> im leaving to camp on july 3rd and i want to be able to get this done before that
<nixternal> dunno what their schedule is like..I was trying to find out meeting times coming up
<coreymon77> im still waiting on the metting announcement
<pochu> coreymon77: dholbach said it'd be announced next week, so please be patient :)
<coreymon77> okay
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-16
<mr_pouit> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 16 Jun 12:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 14:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 13:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
<DarkSun88> Hi all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
<somerville32> Cheers
<j1mc> hi all
<j1mc> sorry i'm a bit late
<j1mc> wonky hotel wifi
<j1mc> hi all
<somerville32> No problem. I'm just getting up from my nap
<j1mc> heh
<maxamillion> hello
<j1mc> hi maxamillion
<maxamillion> i can only stay for an hour, i should have left town an hour ago to go visit my father, but i didn't want to miss the meeting
<j1mc> what a guy... :)
<vidd_laptop> i thought the meeting was later....
<j1mc> hi luzi
<luzi> hi there
<vidd_laptop> @schedual New_york
<vidd_laptop> !schedual New_York
<j1mc> @schedule New_york
<maxamillion> schedule*
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 14:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team
* vidd_laptop cant spell
<maxamillion> rgr
<maxamillion> ok, we are 6 minutes past time ... shall we get started?
<somerville32> Aye.
* maxamillion worries he will have a loss of power ... the storm rumbles out side
<j1mc> sure...
<j1mc> well, shall we go according to the agenda?
<somerville32> One second, I'm going to relocate to somewhere more comfy.
<somerville32> Please begin :] 
<j1mc> ok.
<somerville32> Ok
<j1mc> first item up on the agenda ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings ) is the website
<somerville32> Aye.
<j1mc> desafortunadamente, we don't have TheSheep here to talk about it...
<j1mc> maxamillion: do you have anything you'd like to say about it?
<somerville32> I know that TheSheep mentioned that he wasn't working on it anymore because of lack of time.
* j1mc thinks "adam" is maxamillion 
<vidd_laptop> wb maxamillion
* maxamillion slaps his internet connection
<somerville32> Unfortunately, I can't make any commitments since I'll be leaving July 1st until late August
<maxamillion> thanks vidd_laptop
<maxamillion> i lagged out
<somerville32> Otherwise, I'd just hack at the template myself.
* Hobbsee wonders if xubuntu-restricted-extras is of any use to anyone
<j1mc> yeah... maxamillion we were talking about the website, and how TheSheep hasn't been working on it due to lack of time.
* vidd_laptop does not understand the deal with the website....do we acually want to clone ubuntu?
<maxamillion> Hobbsee: i've never heard of it to be truly honest
<Hobbsee> maxamillion: because it doesnt exist.
<Hobbsee> maxamillion: the resources are there that it can now
<maxamillion> Hobbsee: ah, i guess that is an idea i would have to bring up to jani
<j1mc> Hobbsee: can we come back to that a little later in the meeting?
<maxamillion> j1mc: sorry
<Hobbsee> j1mc: of course.  just giving a heads up.  i'm actually heading towards bed.  sorry to hijack.
<maxamillion> j1mc: what's the current order of business?
<j1mc> np...  :)  thanks, Hobbsee... we'll be in touch about it.
<j1mc> maxamillion: we're talking about the website
<j1mc> thesheep doesn't have much time to work on it, and cody is leaving soon.
<maxamillion> ah
<j1mc> should we just consider a .css refresh?
<vidd_laptop> is it already decided that we ARE cloning the ubuntu site or is that still in the air?
<somerville32> It would be easier to just use the new template.
<j1mc> there's a guy in chicago-ubuntu who is pretty good with drupal.
<somerville32> j1mc: Aye. TheSheep isn't the only person who has the necessary skills
<somerville32> I wonder what the other derivs. are doing.
<j1mc> yeah... i don't want to sign anybody up who isn't at the meeting, but i bet we could get the word out amongst our respective circles.
<j1mc> someone could help us...
<somerville32> Do Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. have intentions to use the new template?
<maxamillion> i thought he had already done the theme change, just needed to add a new logo icons
<j1mc> good question.
<Hobbsee> i think kubuntu is going to use the new template.  there's a spec on it
<vidd_laptop> if i had this template...i could do the design...i guess
<maxamillion> s/icons/icon
<Hobbsee> spec will tell of more details
* Hobbsee --> bed.
<maxamillion> night Hobbsee
<somerville32> maxamillion: Since you're the prime guy for the website right now, maybe you could create a specification and then we can all pitch in once you've got the framework done?
<somerville32> I think we can all agree that we want the new template
<somerville32> It is very professional, neat, clean, and lovely
<somerville32> lol
<j1mc> yes, the new template looks good. :)
<somerville32> The question is implementation and the question of content
<vidd_laptop> so then....when will ubuntu use it?
<somerville32> Pardon?
<maxamillion> somerville32: i thought we already had a spec for it? ... i could have sworn all this was said and done, there were just minor changes needing to be made to the drupal theme that radomir worked on
<j1mc> vidd_laptop: ubuntu uses it already.  ubuntu.com
<vidd_laptop> if this templete is as great as you make it out to be...then ubuntu does not have it up
<j1mc> maxamillion: you probably know better than the rest of us.
<maxamillion> i saw a screenshot of the one radomir was working on .. it looked almost finished to me, i thought he was just cleaning up some css code
<somerville32> I too saw it
<somerville32> It was looking good.
<maxamillion> somerville32: then we should get that code from him if he's not able to finish it
<somerville32> maxamillion: Do you think you could be responsible for ensuring that the new template is implemented for the release of Gutsy?
* somerville32 crosses his fingers.
<somerville32> maxamillion: aye
* j1mc waits as maxamillion types his response :)
<maxamillion> somerville32: yes, i can commit to that
<j1mc> awesome.  :)
<somerville32> Awesome indeed.
<somerville32> Thanks max
<somerville32> Lets talk about the doc-browser
<maxamillion> anytime
<somerville32> j1mc: Did you and Admiral get to talk to some people in -doc again re: doc browseR?
<j1mc> no, not really...
<j1mc> i am just not sure what all additional work is required on the spec.
<maxamillion> doc-browser, i like the idea, but we would need to get it sponsored by a core-dev in order to get it in main so we can distribute it in the release iso
<somerville32> The first step is developing it
<somerville32> They can't put it in main unless it is all packaged and in tip-top quality.
<maxamillion> somerville32: right
<somerville32> Once we get to the that point, we simply need it promoted and added to the seeds.
<j1mc> a comment was left on the spec on the wiki stating that much more work was needed in the latter section, but i am not sure what all to add.
<somerville32> j1mc: Link?
<j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Gutsy/DocumentationBrowser
<j1mc> "The following sections need extensive work"
<j1mc> not being a developer, I'm not sure what to add.
<j1mc> . . . once that is ready, though, i should put it up on launchpad, correct?
<somerville32> You can put it on now
<somerville32> I can even do it if you'd like
<j1mc> it's ok... i'll handle it...
<maxamillion> yeah, once its on there i will join it ... maybe even put together a draft of the code sometime next week
<j1mc> could either of you lend some insight as to what else would be needed in the spec, though? add a few additional comments?
<maxamillion> main issue is a proper search feature, shouldn't be too hard to code though ... but that will be the hardest part
<somerville32> We don't need search
<maxamillion> no?
<somerville32> If we use Topic Based Help, we should be A1
<somerville32> Search could be something added later
<maxamillion> doesn't yelp have a search feature?
<maxamillion> ah, ok
<somerville32> maxamillion: ie. If we can get a stable release that can go into gutsy first, then we can focus on extra stuff
<j1mc> makes sense.
<maxamillion> right
<somerville32> j1mc: Did you create the spec on lp yet? :] 
<j1mc> no, should i create it right now?  :)
* j1mc goes to create spec.  :)
<somerville32> maxamillion: The UI needs heavy specing
<maxamillion> somerville32: i agree
<maxamillion> somerville32: my honest plan is to mimic the yelp ui
* somerville32 ponders.
<somerville32> We should get TheSheep's help on the UI. He is a UI god.
<maxamillion> he's just kinda an all around god, but yes ... he has alot of insight on UI
<somerville32> Which is better then I
<somerville32> I have nonme
<somerville32> :] 
<maxamillion> i have some ... i took a course last semester on human-computer-interaction and we covered ALOT of UI stuff
<somerville32> Awesome.
<maxamillion> but anyways, that's a tad offtopic
<j1mc> ah, sorry guys... anyone have a link to set up a spec?
<maxamillion> we need to draft a UI spec and add it to jim's spec
* j1mc looking... no luck yet.
<somerville32> lol
<maxamillion> :P
<somerville32> j1mc: I'll do it real quick
<j1mc> ok... then show me how you did it.
<j1mc> sorry, all.
<somerville32> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+addspec
<j1mc> ok... .want me to do it now?
<somerville32> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-documentation-browser
<somerville32> Already done
<j1mc> thanks...
<maxamillion> heh, i'm already assined
<maxamillion> :)
<maxamillion> assigned*
<maxamillion> bleh ... i'm tired
* j1mc gives maxamillion some coffee
<maxamillion> thanks
<maxamillion> speaking of .... i should get some of that on my way out of town so i don't fall asleep on the road
<somerville32> <g>
<maxamillion> ok, we covered the website, and now the spec for the doc viewer .. next order of business?
<somerville32> j1mc: How goes actual doc writing?
<somerville32> And what was that I heard about us migrating to bzr?
<j1mc> it is going fairly well - not huge progress, but we are moving along.
* maxamillion thought the docs were already held in a bzr repo
<j1mc> migrating to bzr isn't going to happen, but i do have a question about getting our changes up...
<j1mc> maxamillion: they are in a subversion repo.
<maxamillion> huh
<j1mc> since we are changing so much of the documentation for xubuntu, i don't want to submit huuuge patches...
<luzi> can we have a look at it?
<j1mc> we're basically using current ubuntu docs as a guide...
<j1mc> luzi: yeah... how do you want us to handle submitting patches?  just submit them all to the ubuntu-doc mailing list?
<j1mc> the thing is... i don't think that we're really submitting "patches" we're basically submitting new content.
<j1mc> at least in terms of xubuntu . . .
<somerville32> Thats ok.
<luzi> that's patches too, just really big ones.
* somerville32 nods.
<luzi> i think it'd be better to work in the official doc repo
<j1mc> ok... we'll submit our first set this week, and then get feedback, i suppose.
<j1mc> luzi: i agree...
<luzi> not start your own branch, and then find out someone else has worked on the official repo.\
<j1mc> right...
<somerville32> Once you start getting a few patches in (and show that you check your work), you'll get SVN access quickly.
<j1mc> but basically we're using ubuntu docs as a base...
<somerville32> As for creating your own branch, it IS possible that you could create a product and sync the SVN branch into a bzr branch
<somerville32> Then you could use get a sponsor to upload your diffs (ie. patchs)
<somerville32> But I figure you guys will get access soon enough anyhow
<j1mc> hmmm... yeah, that sounds like a hassle, though...  :)  i think it'll work out submitting patches up through the mailing list.
<j1mc> we'll see how it goes.
<j1mc> as i said, freddy and i will start submitting what we've been working on this week.
<luzi> sounds good to me.
<j1mc> the good news is that we are meeting weekly, and we're learning docbook, and are making progress.  :)
<somerville32> Awesome! Kudos! :)
<j1mc> the patch i submitted to the mailing list a few days ago was my first patch EVAR by the way.  :)
<somerville32> :D
<maxamillion> j1mc: congrats ;)
<j1mc> hehe
<j1mc> next topic?
<maxamillion> sure
<somerville32> Keep us updated about doc status
<somerville32> It lifts morale when one knows others are accomplishing things
<j1mc> ok.  i will.
<maxamillion> thankies
<somerville32> Which motivates them to do something productive too!
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> it looks like we're missing our special guest.
<maxamillion> :(
<somerville32> Disappointing, aye.
<somerville32> Whats the other item on the list?
<somerville32> More prominent add/remove in menu?
<maxamillion> well, i need to get going ... i might be back later
<maxamillion> it will be a few hours though, i have a long drive ahead of me
<maxamillion> laters all!!
<j1mc> ok, maxamillion thanks for your help.
<j1mc> somerville32: yeah, the add-remove item was on the list...
<j1mc> i think it's ok where it is, though...
<somerville32> Who added the item?
<j1mc> VincentZekred
<somerville32> Ok
<somerville32> Well, I suppose we can discuss the items we were going to discuss with Cory
<j1mc> sure...
<j1mc> would you like to start?
<somerville32> I think there is a fundamental issue at heart
<somerville32> It feels like, at times, it is the blind leading the blind and we happen to be just going in circles.
<j1mc> i do see some of the same issues being brought up again and again...
<j1mc> and to me, it seems that items of little importance receive a good deal of attention.
<somerville32> There is a recognized lack of direction. A lot of us, such as myself, simply don't have the experience to lead the develop of a distribution by ourselves. We aren't always aware of the resources available or the best way to do things.
<somerville32> Aye.
<j1mc> yeah...
<somerville32> We all have good intentions but I think it would be hard to argue that there is more talk then actual do.
* j1mc nods
<j1mc> i don't really know who does the work for xubuntu other than jani.
<somerville32> I think it is just Jani and Lionel now
<j1mc> there seems to be a disconnect there for one thing . . .  who is Lionel?
<j1mc> it's sad that i don't know that.  :)
<lionel> mr_pouit, not me :)
<somerville32> Aye
<somerville32> lol
<mr_pouit> yes ^^
* j1mc waves at mr_pouit and asks if he is lionel.
<j1mc> :)
<mr_pouit> yes, I am Lionel :P
<somerville32> j1mc: I agree with you. There is most certainly a disconnect.
<mr_pouit> Jani has very little time, that's why he never attends the meeting iirc.
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Jani is very busy.
<j1mc> mr_pouit and jani are doing the real core work for xubuntu it seems... it would just be good to know how to support them...
<j1mc> and it seems like we have people at the high level, like jani and mr_pouit , but not many folks in between that and people at the end where there isn't much coding going on.
<j1mc> i'm not sure what all else to say on this topic.
<mr_pouit> there are many things to do : merging packages from debian (I am taking care of that since the begin of gutsy dev cycle), "degnomify"ing apps (Jani tries to do this), but also bug triaging, translations...
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Maybe we lose focus too often of what there really is to do?
<somerville32> But at the same time, I still feel like there is something missing.
<somerville32> A link along the way
<somerville32> I guess the question is, why do people not know what to do when they know what they can do?
* j1mc phone
<somerville32> or *could do
<j1mc> back...
<j1mc> that's a good question, cody...
<somerville32> It is a question I can only guess at
<j1mc> i think we could tackle it in a few ways...
<somerville32> Aye.
<mr_pouit> j1mc: I think the people "between" could be bugtriagers
* j1mc thinks aloud . . .   :)
<mr_pouit> It doesn't need coding.packaging skills, and it's very useful
<j1mc> mr_pouit: agreed.  :)
<j1mc> but how do we encourage people to triage?
<j1mc> ... through the lists...
<mr_pouit> and it doesn't seem that the bugsquad takes care of xubuntu bugs... many stays untriaged :/
<gpocentek> hug days \o/
<j1mc> ... through xubuntu bugs days...
<j1mc> hug days, yeay!
<mr_pouit> yes
<gpocentek> make people jump in and triage Xubuntu bugs during hug days
* somerville32 pushes gpocentek into the bug pool for hugs.
<j1mc> but also . . .  the mailing lists and the ubuntu planet could be used as means to give these topics some attention.
<somerville32> Aye
<somerville32> j1mc: I agree.
<j1mc> somerville32: what's with you saying "Aye" ... are you a pirate now?  :-P
<j1mc> no, i guess that would be Arrrg!
<j1mc> sorry
* j1mc was just teasing, somerville32 :)
<j1mc> mr_pouit: you think that would help - bug traige?  this is a big need for you guys?
<somerville32> mr_pouit, gpocentek: What about people on this "higher end" who want to package (can package and do), want to program (can program and do), and want to help _develop_ yet don't have the experience to do so.
<somerville32> s/./?
<somerville32> A good example is the network manager
<gpocentek> j1mc: bug triaging usually leads to have a look at the packages too
<mr_pouit> somerville32: for packaging, there is the Ubuntu-motu-mentors ML, and there's the possibility to get mentored by a MOTU
<j1mc> one thing that was helpful during the run-up to the release of feisty was jani asked certain items to be tested.
<somerville32> mr_pouit: I can already package but I'd like to go one step further and start developing and implementing specifications.
<j1mc> as cody mentioned before, knowing what others are working on would help further participation of others.
<j1mc> help build momentum...
<Toadstool> bug triaging is one of the best way in actually, if you don't stick to the click-on-LP part of the job, it gives you a chance to examine different kind of packages and gives you much more experience than just packaging some random app imho
<luzi> i've got to go. see you all!
<j1mc> take care, luzi
* somerville32 waves at luzi
* somerville32 nods at Toadstool
<gpocentek> somerville32: my first steps with coding was fixes to xfce applets
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Ok :] 
<j1mc> so, a few things we can take away from this:  bug triage is appreciated by the developers, and we need more of it.
<j1mc> ... we could use some mentoring (?) for people interested in developing more... or advancing their development skills...
<gpocentek> yes
<j1mc> what else...
<gpocentek> you can play with simple packaging tasks
<j1mc> providing a bit more prompting on what could be done may be helpful in generating more activity.
<gpocentek> packages updates for instance, not necessarily Xubuntu related
* j1mc nods
<gpocentek> if you want to develop stuff in *ubuntu, you'll *have* to be ready to touch packages
<gpocentek> this also means being around in #u-motu
<j1mc> somerville32: anything to add...  there's more, i know... these are not small issues, really...
<gpocentek> for Jani, Lionel and me, everything started with the MOTUs
* somerville32 nods
<somerville32> j1mc: I think we covered a lot of good ground today.
<j1mc> i think part of it may be that people might not think that they would be ready to be a motu.  or they don't think of it as something they could attain.  ??  or maybe we just don't have enough motu-minded people with us now.
<gpocentek> maybe
<gpocentek> there's almost nothing in universe related to xubuntu
<gpocentek> main only
<mr_pouit> 2 or 3 panel-plugins
<gpocentek> but becoming a MOTU is possible for *everyone*
<somerville32> It generally takes 2 release cycles though
<j1mc> mr_pouit: i think that a note to the list every now and then from you and jani, just letting us know what you're working on, would be good.
<gpocentek> yes, but it doesn't mean that your work is not applied
<somerville32> gpocentek: aye
<j1mc> also identifying any areas that need help, testing, review, etc...
<somerville32> Increasing xubuntu developer visibility would most certainly be helpful in regards to moral.
<j1mc> it doesn't have to be all the time... but ... like i said earlier, it is weird to not even know who the core people are.
<j1mc> and you do so much awesome work.  :)
<somerville32> I think participation in some of the discussion (either putting out unproductive ones or supporting/steering productive ones) would be a plus.
* j1mc agrees
<somerville32> I'd like there to be less of a division
<somerville32> And I think it may have been created by the unproductive discussions that occur on -devel sometimes.
<j1mc> yes...
<mr_pouit> Yes, sometimes the xubuntu-devel ml tends to become xubuntu-users :] 
<mr_pouit> j1mc: ok for the note, I'll tru to do that
<mr_pouit> *try
<somerville32> splendid
<j1mc> :)
<somerville32> mr_pouit: So, what are your feelings on the xubuntu-documentation-browser spec?
<fijam> hello
<somerville32> Hello
<fijam> it's been a while
<somerville32> I'm sure it has
<j1mc> i've got to go, everyone.  thanks for time out of your days today... i think it was a helpful discussion.
<mr_pouit> This could be useful, but it would be worth knowing if people are really bored by Firefox slowness
<somerville32> mr_pouit: I know I am.
<vidd_laptop> board??
<somerville32> j1mc: ttyl
<vidd_laptop> frustrated...but never bored =] 
<j1mc> bye!
<fijam> somerville32: a lot of things popped up and I was unable to contribute to the documentation development
<vidd_laptop> mr_pouit, are there plans to replace/trim FF in the near future?
<somerville32> fijiam: Tis is ok :)
<mr_pouit> We should see this with Jani, but I don't think so
<fijam> but now, once the exams are over I should have enough time to help
<mr_pouit> (at least not for gutsy)
<somerville32> fijam: J1mc and Admiral_Chigaco are really leading the way. They'd be super happy to get your assistance, I know they would.
<vidd_laptop> btw somerville32: i dont really have the time or know-how to work with getting the xfburn issue resolved....
* vidd_laptop has no idea where to even begin
<vidd_laptop> =\
<mr_pouit> vidd_laptop: you can speak with pygi from the ubuntu burning team
<fijam> somerville32:  I'll let them know that I am 'available'
<somerville32> awesome :)
<vidd_laptop> mr_pouit, and how would i do that...is it a mailing list....forum...???
<somerville32> a person
<mr_pouit> He should be on #ubuntu-burning, but you can also mail him (https://launchpad.net/~mario-danic)
<vidd_laptop> somerville32, i KNOW its a person...but do i contact them via telephone, e-mail, irc?
<somerville32> Ah. See above ^^
<vidd_laptop> bookmarked
<somerville32> I'd be interested in taking a look at xfburn too
<vidd_laptop> its an awesome app...clean looking....
<vidd_laptop> and LITE....
<vidd_laptop> does everything but burn ISO's
<somerville32> And hopefully we'll fix that :] 
<vidd_laptop> unfortunantly....burning ISO's is all i use a burner for
<vidd_laptop> somerville32, have you ever burned an ISO from command line? and did it work correctly?
<somerville32> No, I've never done that.
* gpocentek already did it
<vidd_laptop> cuzz if burning from command line works correctly...then it SHOULD simply be a matter of coding the UI button for "burn ISO" to call the proper CLI command
<vidd_laptop> gpocentek, what is the proper commands?
<gpocentek> that's what xfburn does
<gpocentek> cdrecord
<gpocentek> well, now it's wodim
<vidd_laptop> gpocentek, but why does it not do it correctly then?
<mr_pouit> cdrecord has many issues
<gpocentek> vidd_laptop: no idea
<vidd_laptop> gnomebaker is a front end for cdrecord....and it does not have this issue....
<vidd_laptop> or does gnomebaker use something else for ISO images?
<mr_pouit> I think all cd recording apps still use cdrecord
<mr_pouit> (except brasero in gutsy that switched to libburnia)
<fijam> brasero may use libburn afaik
<fijam> yeah
<vidd_laptop> mr_pouit, what are the requirements for brasero?
<mr_pouit> libgnome and gstreamer
<vidd_laptop> gsteamer is alot of overhead....and will take out gxine....our default media player
<mr_pouit> yes
<Burgundavia> gstreamer also gets you the autocodec stuff, however
<vidd_laptop> Burgundavia, i would rather install libxine-extracodecs
<vidd_laptop> get all the goodies without all the bloat
<Burgundavia> do we have definitive proof that gstreamer apps are more "bloated'
<vidd_laptop> just check the memory footprint
<vidd_laptop> and then we would also have to replace our media player
<vidd_laptop> gxine cant run on gstreamer
<Burgundavia> right
<mr_pouit> and find a gstreamer based player without gnome deps
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> ok, just playing devils advocate
<vidd_laptop> and i dont recall there being any app anywhere near as lite-weight as gxine that runs gstreamer
<vidd_laptop> libburnia.....
* vidd_laptop is off to see if he can fine a tiny bruner that can run it....without needing half the repository list to run
<vidd_laptop> *burner
<somerville32> Splendid
<mr_pouit> in gtk2 this is going to be hard... afaik, only brasero ans xfburn are still maintained
<mr_pouit> *and
<somerville32> Why is brasero out of the game?
<vidd_laptop> it needs gsteamer
<vidd_laptop> interesting....pygi runs the mailing list for the libburn-cutters
<vidd_laptop> is libburnia in the repo's?
<mr_pouit> yes
<mr_pouit> libburn & libisofs
<somerville32> Welp, I think this here would be perfect discussion for #xubuntu-devel
<somerville32> Now that Burgundavia is here, I'd really like to hear from him :)
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> nobody else objects?
<vidd_laptop> none here
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> well, somerville32 asked me to come and chat with you guys about community building
<somerville32> \o/
<Burgundavia> the key part of community building is basically that you need to provide things for people to do
<Burgundavia> the "if you build it, they will come" or "nothing breeds success like success"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
<Burgundavia> what you need to ask is "if I were a new contributor, how do I get involved?
<Burgundavia> "
<Burgundavia> to answer that, you need a bunch of small tasks to get people going
<Burgundavia> for instance, the bug team has got their "bitesize tasks" or KDE's Junior Jobs
<Burgundavia> in that vein, here are some concrete ideas (I have no idea if you doing any of these or not)
<Burgundavia> * tag xubuntu specific bugs as bitesized and then publish that list
<Burgundavia> * get people blogging on Planet Ubuntu about the latest Xubuntu news (new programs, new artwork, etc)
<Burgundavia> * define a few high levels goals for the next release
<Burgundavia> some people are drawn in by big ideas, others by small stuff
<Burgundavia> does any of this make sense?
<vidd_laptop> Burgundavia, now that you said it...its super obvious!
<vidd_laptop> =] 
* somerville32 nods.
<Burgundavia> now, all of this takes work, time that is not going to actual development
<Burgundavia> that might feel like a waste (I just want to fix this bug, not tell somebody else how to do it) but it well worth the effort to teach people
<vidd_laptop> Burgundavia, so true....
<Burgundavia> so, I kind of mixed in marketing xubuntu in, my 2nd point
<Burgundavia> an important thing to remember, is that whenever you promote or talk about Xubuntu, you need to talk about how people can help
<Burgundavia> for instance, when Jono is good at this
<Burgundavia> look at his blog posts about Jokosher for examples
<Burgundavia> or my blog about OpenStreetMap
<Burgundavia> for instance, you were talking about burners earlier
<Burgundavia> one of you could write a blog about how you are searching for a burner and what the pitfalls you have run into
<Burgundavia> at the end of the blog post, ask for peoples help in solving this problem
<Burgundavia> that make sense?
<fijam> certainly
<Burgundavia> another thing to realize is that you are going to loose people and gain people
<vidd_laptop> it makes sense....
<Burgundavia> being a volunteer project, the number of people you have is going to ebb and wain. The key part is that you attracting new people
<Burgundavia> from a development POV, unloading as much work on other people is also a good idea
<Burgundavia> thus working with upstream GNOME to make their apps run on stock GTK is thus a good idea
<mr_pouit> Jani has some problems to convince upstream to get his patches
<Burgundavia> some of that might require you do the hard work of integrating the patches and again, it is all about personal relationships
<Burgundavia> brb
<Burgundavia> back
<Burgundavia> any other questions?
<somerville32> Aye
<somerville32> I'd like to know how to reduce the "running around with out heads chopped off" symptom that is a result of guidance and leadership.
<somerville32> err.. lack of
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<Burgundavia> well, the best way to solve that problem is to do something :)
<Burgundavia> have a meeting wherein you define a few high level goals for the next release and then agree on them
<Burgundavia> voila! instant leadership, because you all know what you are trying to do
<Burgundavia> a goal might be: find and implement a burning app
<Burgundavia> or: improve basic documentation to make certain all major apps are documented
<vidd_laptop> somerville32, maybe we should put a "goal checklist" on the xubuntu site....
<Burgundavia> yes, that would be awesome
<Burgundavia> how many of you have blogs and are on planet ubuntu?
<vidd_laptop> complete with Task Leader column (with e-mail address)
<vidd_laptop> not i
<somerville32> I don't but I guess I should
<Burgundavia> get one and get it on planet ubuntu and start blogging
<fijam> btw is the xubuntu.wordpress.com an (at-least-partially)official blog? It seems to be somewhat abandoned.
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> no, it is not
<Burgundavia> talk about the latest development news, new deployments, etcx.
<vidd_laptop> somerville32, i will draw up a template for a "goal checklist" page....
<fijam> ah, ok. It is still a top result on google for 'xubuntu blog' query. Maybe something should be done in order to change it. The official xubuntu site is rather 'static' IMO.
<Burgundavia> ah, yep
<somerville32> I understand that certain individuals have been able to be accelerated in terms of acceptance to MOTU. Would that be available to xubuntu individuals who have demonstrated proficiencies?
<Burgundavia> a static website means nobody will visit it
<Burgundavia> for MOTU, you need to talk to the tech board
<Burgundavia> for ubuntu membership, I suggest you learn from the Brazillian team
<Burgundavia> when one of their own comes up, they all comment on that persons user page
<Burgundavia> it makes it so much easier to figure out whether or not to approve peope
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> I think getting more "xubuntu" ubuntu members would be an A1 idea
<vidd_laptop> ubuntu membership?
<Burgundavia> for that, you need a council
<vidd_laptop> what is that?
<Burgundavia> much like the Kubuntu one
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<somerville32> Hiya
<fijam> hello
<somerville32> Burgundavia: I don't think we really need a council at this time though, eh?
<somerville32> We only have a dozen or so people involved directly
<somerville32> (if that)
<Burgundavia> I would have to seriously look at how many people you have
<Burgundavia> you need a certain critical mass
<somerville32> We don't have that :/
<Burgundavia> make certain you have all your core contributors as members first
<mr_pouit> there are ~100 members in the ~xubuntu-users team
<vidd_laptop> mr_pouit, is that the mailing list?
<somerville32> No
<mr_pouit> No, this is a Launchpad team: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-users/
<vidd_laptop> hrm... i never heard of it b4....
<Burgundavia> anyway, you should probably wrap this meeting up
<Burgundavia> if you want to chat with me privately or at another meeting, I can do that
<somerville32> Alrighty. Thanks a bunch :)
<fijam> If i might suggest something at this point...
<fijam> IMO it should be taken under serious consideration how to make the xubuntu website more attractive to the visitors
<somerville32> We're implementing a new theme
<fijam> when the official website doesn't draw attention and updates every major release, there is a feeling that 'everything is happening behind the scenes'
<fijam> which may be just an antoher factor deterring people from joining the development
<fijam> s/antoher/another
* somerville32 nods.
<Burgundavia> yep
<fijam> the form is undoubtly important, but the content is what is desperately needed ;)
<fijam> maybe this is a topic for another meeting
<Burgundavia> yes :)
<Burgundavia> given you are at 3hours and counting
<somerville32> :] 
<fijam> right, thanks for the meeting, and see you later
<Burgundavia> cya
<effraie> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 19 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-17
<DarkSun88> Hi all
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-09
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 11 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team
 * Pretto is away: Estou ocupado
<Hobbsee> !away | Pretto
<ubottu> Pretto: You should avoid changing your nick in a busy channel like #ubuntu, or other Ubuntu channels - it causes unrequired scrolling which is unfair to new users.  (Please set your preferred nick in your client's settings instead.)  The same goes for using noisy away messages; use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently.  See also Â«/msg ubottu GuidelinesÂ»
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<popey> @schedule
<ubottu> popey: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 10 Jun 11:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00: QA Team
 * Pretto is back (gone 02:29:23)
<Pretto> Hobbsee, heya... sorry for the delay, lunch time here :)
<zul> @schedule portland
<ubottu> zul: Error: Unknown timezone: portland - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<zul> @schedule vancouver
<ubottu> zul: Schedule for America/Vancouver: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 10 Jun 04:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 08:00: Server Team | 10 Jun 23:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 10:00: QA Team
<hubuntu> @now
<ubottu> hubuntu: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 09 2008, 22:55:58 - Current meeting: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-10
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<nickellery> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> nickellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 10 Jun 04:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 08:00: Server Team | 10 Jun 23:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 10:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 06:00: Desktop Team
<leoquant> @schedule amsterdam
<ubottu> leoquant: Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 17:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 19:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 15:00: Desktop Team
<izamryan> hai guys
<udienz-> @now
<ubottu> udienz-: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 10 2008, 10:51:59 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
 * Belutz will be back in 15
<amachu> Belutz: elkbuntu: zakame: Hi
<lifeless> hi
<persia> Good Evening
<leoquant> good afternoon
<amachu> persia: hi
<udienz-> persia, leoquant, amachu: good afternoon
<zakame> hi
<leoquant> :)
<udienz-> @schedule Jakarta
<ubottu> udienz-: Schedule for Asia/Jakarta: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 10 Jun 18:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 22:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 13:00: Platform Team | 12 Jun 00:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 20:00: Desktop Team
 * elkbuntu looks at the clock
<elkbuntu> still two minutes!
 * persia rushes off to the green room for just one more fix
<amachu> elkbuntu: yes
<lifeless> allo allo
<lifeless> shall we start ?
<amachu> we should
 * udienz- ready
<elkbuntu> yep
<amachu> hello everybody
<Ekushey> hello amachu
<elkbuntu> who do we have?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<amachu> let me call one by one
<amachu> as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<amachu> please say hi and introduce yourself to the board, about you, your questions
<amachu> your contributions etc.,
<amachu> and then we shall have questions for you
<amachu> shall we go now
<elkbuntu> i believe we have a quorum?
<lifeless> me, amachu, persia, elkbuntu I recognize, I presume udienz is part of the board
<lifeless> 5 has to be quorate :)
<izamryan> hai guys
<persia> lifeless: udienz- is an applicant.
<lifeless> ah, k. 4 then. still good
<udienz-> persia, yup
<Ekushey> i'm an applicant too
<amachu> First, Nicholas Ng
 * persia pings missing people
<Ekushey> i'm lagging very badly, so please excuse me for the delay to reply
<lifeless> nbliang is the irc nick
 * takdir too
<lifeless> not online
<amachu> lifeless: nbliang isn't present it seems
<amachu> let me call the next, udienz
<udienz-> hi all...
<udienz-> my name is Mahyuddin Susanto but you can call me udienz
<udienz-> i'm 23 Years old, Male, currently i'm studiyng at Electrical Engineering Jember University (200KM from Surabaya or 500KM from Jakarta)
<udienz-> currently i'm member at Indonesian Ubuntu Foundation (documentation Team), administrator Ubuntu-Indonesian Translator, keynote HRP/GRP, Writer/activist at Surabaya Linux Council (KLAS/http://surabaya.linux.or.id)
<udienz-> my account at LP is http://edge.launchpad.net/~udienz,
<elkbuntu> udienz-, do you have a wiki page?
<udienz-> yup
 * Belutz is back
<lifeless> HRP/GRP?
<elkbuntu> or are they all the same ;)
<udienz-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Udienz
<Belutz> HRP is Hardy Release Party
<udienz-> lifeless: Hardy Release Party
<izamryan> what's HRP/GRP mean ? :-)
<Belutz> GRP is Gutsy Release Party
<lifeless> ah
<udienz-> :D
<izamryan> wow :-)
<udienz-> enough
<persia> udienz-: Does BlankOn coordinate with Edubuntu in any way?
<elkbuntu> are the release parties big?
<udienz-> persia: no, BlankOn based at ubuntu
<udienz-> elkbuntu: yup, 200 person
<elkbuntu> cool, that's a fairly big crowd
<udienz-> persia: BlankOn Linux is a distribution which is targetted for schools and small to medium enterprises in Indonesia.
<Belutz> udienz-, what would you do if you are approved as an ubuntu member?
<udienz-> Belutz: i wish improved my contribution better than today
<udienz-> and also distributing Ubuntu more than today
<elkbuntu> how does the membership help this?
 * udienz- proposed Ubuntu repository server at my campus
<elkbuntu> how will the membership help you contribute?
<Belutz> elkbuntu, sadly to say, but legality is very needed in our country
<udienz-> elkbuntu: because i can print my name at my bussiness, so i'm more free to be keynote
<udienz-> :D
<elkbuntu> udienz-, you mean carry business cards?
<udienz-> no..D
<elkbuntu> im not sure i understand
<udienz-> i believe if approved it can grow up more spirit
<lifeless> the wordpress theme is nice, have you considered putting it in an ubuntu package?
<udienz-> lifeless, cureently i'm studiying packaging it. but it take a long time
<udienz-> and this theme have a bug
<udienz-> lifeless, thanks
<amachu_> udienz-: Belutz know you?
<Belutz> :D
<zakame> you have a very big karma on translations, that's good :) how much of the current distro do you think is already translated to ID?
<udienz-> zakame: ubuntu
<udienz-> ubuntume
<elkbuntu> huh?
<udienz-> this is example my contributions: http://wiki.blankonlinux.or.id/wiki/Dokumentasi
<udienz-> and this is my activity http://www.ubuntu-id.org/news/hrp-jember-sukses-besar
<zakame> udienz-: yes, I mean ubuntu :)
<Belutz> if I may add, udienz- contributions has been very big for Ubuntu Indonesia, especially for distributing Ubuntu in East Java area
<lifeless> I've heard enough
<udienz-> Belutz: thanks
<udienz-> zakame: sorry :D
 * udienz- nervous
<persia> udienz-: Dod you bring anyone else to cheer for you?
<elkbuntu> sorry, i've been distracted by a problem
<udienz-> persia: RameTux please speak
<amachu__> elkbuntu: me too
<lifeless> udienz-: don't be nervious
<udienz-> persia: RameTux please...
<udienz-> Takdir
 * takdir support udienz
<takdir> :D
 * RameTux too
<RameTux> :-)
<amachu__> udienz-: you have RameTux ?
<amachu__> thats good
<lifeless> anything in particular udienz- does that stands out most ?
<udienz-> Amachu: yup, takdir
<amachu__> takdir: ok
<lifeless> RameTux: takdir: ^
<RameTux> amachu__: ;-)
<amachu__> RameTux: go ahead and can we have few words from you
<udienz-> RameTux: do you nervous too?
<amachu__> tell about yourself, and then about udienz-
 * elkbuntu listens
<amachu__> your experiences with him, may be briefly
<amachu__> if nervous
<udienz-> amachu: RameTux is my partner, maybe he nervous
<udienz-> :D
<amachu__> :D
<elkbuntu> he could be still typing too
<amachu__> thats ok
<amachu__> and takdir ?
<takdir> yup
<lifeless> takdir: anything in particular udienz- does that stands out most ?
<takdir> i'm apply for membership tii
<takdir> too
<lifeless> RameTux: anything in particular udienz- does that stands out most ?
<takdir> udienz make a documentation for ubuntu indonesia
<udienz-> :D
<RameTux> i think he is the most active person on the loco team
<RameTux> sorry, a lot of nervous :D
<lifeless> RameTux: thank you
<RameTux> as u can see his contribution that he said before ;-)
<lifeless> takdir: thanks
<Belutz> may I as the LoCo leader speak for udienz- ?
<amachu__> Belutz: hey, i asked that way back
<amachu__> :-)
<Belutz> or is it prohibited because i'm a member of the approval board?
<Belutz> :D
<elkbuntu> Belutz, please.
<Belutz> sorry, i'm still at the office
<lifeless> I don't see why it should be prohibited
<Belutz> udienz-, has been very helpful in Ubuntu-ID mailing list helping people with problems
<lifeless> but lets move along, its late here
<udienz-> thanks Belutz, Takdir, RameTux
<Belutz> he also the contact person for ubuntu-id for east java area
<Belutz> and he actively write some of his experiences using ubuntu in his blog, that can help ubuntu users in indonesia
<Belutz> I think that's all from me
<amachu__> saw all those at a short run
<udienz-> Belutz: thanks
<elkbuntu> sorry for being so distracted. he seems to have made a good effort indeed
<amachu__> elkbuntu: yes
<Belutz> for all his contributions for ubuntu-id I could give him +1
<lifeless> so, any more questions to ask ?
<lifeless> (I have none)
<elkbuntu> nor i. +1
<persia> +1 from me, although I'd like to see more of the various projects more integrated with Ubuntu
<amachu__> neither too.. thats fair enough +1
<amachu__> neither me too..
 * elkbuntu agrees with persia
<amachu__> zakame: there?
 * udienz- still waiting
<lifeless> +1
<lifeless> persia: I agree re the projects, but I think that that is largely orthogonal; he is contributing both directly and indirectly
<udienz-> lifeless: thanks...
<Belutz> the problem in our country is that we still focus in gathering more FOSS users than FOSS developers, how can they be a developer if they doesn't use it
<zakame> +1 on the translation works, keep it up :)
<persia> lifeless: Entirely.  I believe udienz- deserves membership based on the strength of LoCo work and translations.  I'd still like to see this membership used to help transition ubuntume and BlankOn into in-repo derivatives.
<amachu__> persia: i too would stress on that, overall Ok
 * Belutz congrats udienz- 
<udienz-> hihihi
 * RameTux congrats udienz- ;-)
<amachu__> udienz-: Welcome :-)
<Ekushey> congrats udienz- :)
<lifeless> congrats
<lifeless>  Russell John
<lifeless> 	
<lifeless> Ekushey
<zakame> congrats udienz-
<udienz-> awesome.... thanks all.... thanks amachu, persia, Belutz, lifeless, Ekushy
<amachu__> kudos! Keep it going
<Ekushey> present
<udienz-> thanks zakame
<lifeless> care to tell us about yourself and your Ubuntu contributions?
<Ekushey> Hello everyone, my name is Russell John, I'm the team leader of Ubuntu Bangladesh. I formed this team in 2006 and got approved in 2007. My LP page is at https://launchpad.net/~russell.john and wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Russell.
<Ekushey> I'm mainly an advocacy guy and I do Ubuntu related advocacy in my country. I speak at different occasions about Ubuntu and encourage people to use it at home and offices.
<Ekushey> I also maintaing our website, translate news items, coordinate with our team mates and volunteers, and keep in touch with universities and different organisations where we can penetrate. I help users via our mailing list, forum and also through phone.
<Ekushey> I'm an active Ubuntu advocate and I would be honoured get Ubuntu membership.
<lifeless> what sort of occasions?
<persia> That's a very new LP page :)
<Ekushey> lifeless, workshops mostly
<Ekushey> persia, i renamed it actually
<amachu__> Ekushey: what role you play with iosn?
<Belutz> Ekushey, same question, what would you do if you become an ubuntu member?
<lifeless> ubuntu specific workshops, or ??? how many folk are there...
<Ekushey> amachu__, i'm maintain the bangladesh section since 2004
<Ekushey> Belutz, i'd like to see more people from our locoteam to become ubuntu members, and being the lead contact i think it would be helpful to get the membership myself first
<Ekushey> lifeless, ubuntu/kubuntu specific programs, all under the banner of our loco team
<lifeless> Ekushey: cool
<Ekushey> *team contact
<amachu__> liason with MNC, NGO software firms?
<Ekushey> amachu__, yes ofcoarse
<Ekushey> i used to work for an internation NGO and it helped me to get in touch with others NGOs too
<amachu__> little elaborate please, thats a learning too
<Belutz> Ekushey, how many members in ubuntu-bd right now?
<Ekushey> amachu__, these NGOs are setting up telecenters all around the country, and people would learn how to use computers and internet. we're pushing them to use ubuntu/edubuntu on this machines.
<Ekushey> Belutz, around 200 on mailing list and 90 on LP
<Belutz> nice
<lifeless> I have no more questions btw, +1
<elkbuntu> +1 from me too
<Belutz> are they all active in offline activity like you do?
<Ekushey> thanks, lifeless
<amachu__> Ekushey: fine. how about contributions to translations
<Ekushey> thanks, elkbuntu
<amachu__> ubuntu bangaldesh members make contributions to Bengali?
<Ekushey> Belutz, most of them, yes. on out last meet, 70 people joined us.
<Ekushey> amachu__, yes of course!
<Belutz> great
<persia> Ekushey: Did you bring anyone to cheer for you?
<Ekushey> persia, not really
<elkbuntu> ekushey has been in the loco circle for quite a while
<Belutz> +1 from me
<lifeless> elkbuntu: feel free to cheer ;P
<Ekushey> thanks, Belutz
<amachu__> elkbuntu: yes, he has been :-)
<elkbuntu> lifeless, that is me cheering :)
<Ekushey> :)
<amachu__> +1 from me
<persia> +1 from me
 * Belutz cheer for elkbuntu 
<Ekushey> thanks amachu__ :)
<GunbladeIV> hello
<Ekushey> thank you persia!
<zakame> damn that's a lot
<zakame> +1
<amachu__> Congrats!
<Belutz> Ekushey, congrats :)
<lifeless> grats
<Ekushey> thanks zakame :)
<Belutz> Ekushey, welcome aboard
<Ekushey> thank you everyone... it's a pleasure :)
<Belutz> Ekushey, hope to see ubuntu-bd growing
<GunbladeIV> any malaysian representative here?
<Ekushey> thanks :)
<udienz-> welcome Ekushey! congrats!
<amachu__> takdir
<Belutz> GunbladeIV, not that i know of
<Ekushey> thanks udienz- mate :)
<takdir> yup
<takdir> I'm Takdir, from Indonesia, work in government.
<GunbladeIV> Belutz, udienz- : hi id members.
<takdir> I use ubuntu and i promote ubuntu with seminar and workshop
<takdir> especially in ubuntu release party.
<takdir> i'm member  ubuntu indonesian, http://groups.google.com/group/id-ubuntu
<takdir> always give support if I know how to solve the problem
<takdir> and
<takdir> now i will join again as ubuntu translator (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-id)
<takdir> because my membership expired a few month ago.
<takdir> that's my introduction. thanks
<takdir> my wiki page
<takdir> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MuhammadTakdir
<Belutz> any questions for takdir ?
<amachu__> seminar and workshops references?
<Belutz> takdir, what would you if you are an ubuntu member?
<takdir> amachu__ like this ? http://www.ubuntu-id.org/news/kpli-makassar-mengadakan-pesta-rilis-hardy-dan-blankon
<ApOgEE-> hi everyone!
<takdir> or every 2  week workshop in base camp
<GunbladeIV> hi ApOgEE-
<ApOgEE-> nice to meet all of you!
<lifeless> takdir: what would you say your largest area of contribution is (e.g. advocacy, packaging, ...) Also, you say you promote the use of ubuntu in government and elementary schools - how successful is that (are places using it ?)
<amachu__> is that sinjai that you have mentioned in your wiki?
<takdir> belutz, it will be give me spirit to contribute
<amachu__> takdir: there?
<takdir> and i can write most about ubuntu in my web blog
<takdir> yup
<takdir> http://www.sinjai.go.id
<lifeless> @schedule sydney
<ubottu> lifeless: Schedule for Australia/Sydney: Current meeting: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 01:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 16:00: Platform Team | 12 Jun 03:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 23:00: Desktop Team
<persia> takdir: Could you expand on the relation between BlankOn and Ubuntu?
<takdir> BlankOn is distribution derivate from ubuntu
<lifeless> takdir: what would you say your largest area of contribution is (e.g. advocacy, packaging, ...) Also, you say you promote the use of ubuntu in government and elementary schools - how successful is that (are places using it ?)
<zakame> why is it named such?
<Belutz> zakame, Blank then On
<takdir> there is 2 school migrate their lab in to ubuntu
<lifeless> takdir: did you help with that migration?
<takdir> yup
<takdir> yup
<takdir> i give instruction
<takdir> and keep support
<lifeless> cool
<Belutz> actually BlankOn is a colaborative project between Ubuntu Indonesia and Indonesia Linux Movement Foundation, the main goal is to provide a linux distro that is more suitable for Indonesian users
<takdir> also give edubuntu with gcompris
<takdir> in government where i work, i've been migrate internet laboratory to ubuntu
<takdir> and make local repository
<ApOgEE-> wow
<Belutz> same like udienz- , takdir have been very helpful in ubuntu-id mailing list
<takdir> Sinjai Regency, is small city in east indonesia
<amachu__> takdir: ok
 * udienz- agree with Belutz
<Belutz> he's also one of the main contact for sulawesi island
<takdir> my LP : https://launchpad.net/~muhammad-takdir
<Belutz> he's been very active maintaining some packages for BlankOn which is we hope that after that we could contribute to upstream
<takdir> thanks belutz, udienz
<takdir> :D
<amachu__> Belutz: takdir: udienz- : all three have met before? ;-)
 * RameTux too :D
<lifeless> +1 from me, it sounds like there is a lot of community (in the sense of support and advocacy) as well as code-related stuff going on
<Belutz> amachu__, i have met takdir, but i haven't met udienz-
<lifeless> while MOTU would be a good route, there is enough community stuff to convince me
<elkbuntu> i agree
<Belutz> amachu__, he did once come to my office (a government body too)
<takdir> yup, i never see udienz
<takdir> :)
<udienz-> amachu__: indonesia is great country. it's possiblity to met
<persia> +1 from me on community, the technical stuff needs to come back upstream before it becomes interesting.
<RameTux> takdir is a government ubuntu/opensource activist ;-)
 * udienz- wish takdir eillbe MOTU dev
<takdir> and in indonesian linux conference, meet with belutz
<amachu__> :-)
<Belutz> for all his contributions to ubuntu indonesia i could give him +1
<amachu__> Cheers +1
<amachu__> Keep it going
<takdir> udienz, i must learn much
<takdir> thankx persia, amachu__, belutz
<ApOgEE-> here's my humble launchpad page https://launchpad.net/~apogee
<ApOgEE-> ;D
<amachu__> zakame: ?
 * RameTux congrats takdir ;-)
<ApOgEE-> persia, are you persian?
<persia> ApOgEE-: No.
<lifeless> ApOgEE-: you are not on the list for tonight are you ?
<lifeless> only 4 names there
<ApOgEE-> is it?
<lifeless> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<persia> ApOgEE-: Please add yourself to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania and come back next week.
<lifeless> you need to put your name there
<lifeless> we are at the end of this meeting now
<amachu__> lifeless: i think we should check Nicholas is there, before we conclude
<lifeless> and it takes nearly 20 minutes to do a candidate
<lifeless> amachu__: sure
<lifeless> still no such nick
<ApOgEE-> lifeless, ok lifeless
<ApOgEE-> i'm goin home now...
<Belutz> takdir, welcome aboard (is it done yet?)
<amachu__> ApOgEE-: Suggest you to add yourself to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<ApOgEE-> lifeless, will add later... i'm in hurry
<ApOgEE-> ok amachu__
<ApOgEE-> gtg...
<amachu__> Is Nicholas there?
<lifeless> no
<lifeless> his nick is not online
<amachu__> yes..
<lifeless> nbliang is the nick
<elkbuntu> nbliang hasnt been seen by nickserv for 6 days.
<amachu__> so we have 3 members aboard
<elkbuntu> we do.
 * Belutz congrats udienz-, Ekushey- and takdir 
<Ekushey> thanks again, Belutz
<takdir> thanks Belutz
<amachu__> Welcome udienz-, Ekushey, takdir
<GunbladeIV> actually nbliang is currently busy
<Ekushey> do i need to add myself to any LP page?
<Belutz> may "ubuntu member" title could make you contribute more to ubuntu and keep spreading the ubuntu spirit
<udienz-> thnaks All
<persia> It the same time next week good for all board members?
<udienz-> thaanks All
<amachu__> persia: we shall announce that later
<amachu__> there is a clash with Community Council next with
<amachu__> at the same time
<persia> amachu__: Ah right.  OK
<amachu__> we shall take it off-line
<amachu__> So lets conclude now. shall we?
<Belutz> amachu__, ok
<amachu__> elkbuntu: lifeless: persia: there?
<persia> I'm good for conclusion.
<amachu__> thankyou everyone for participating
<elkbuntu> yes?
<lifeless> all done
<amachu__> we will keep you updated on further course of actions
<amachu__> :-)
<amachu__> Cheers
<Belutz> thanks amachu__ , elkbuntu , lifeless , zakame , persia
<takdir> thanks all
<takdir> :D
<udienz-> many thanks to all
<udienz-> i dont't believe it real, i think it dream
<elkbuntu> so um, who is doing the LP clickery?
<lukehasnoname> @schedule chicago
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Schedule for America/Chicago: Current meeting: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 10:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 01:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 12:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 08:00: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint
<izamryan> @schedule brunei
<ubottu> izamryan: Schedule for Asia/Brunei: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 10 Jun 23:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 14:00: Platform Team | 12 Jun 01:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 21:00: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 23:00: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint
<owh> @schedule perth
<ubottu> owh: Schedule for Australia/Perth: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 10 Jun 23:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 14:00: Platform Team | 12 Jun 01:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 21:00: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 23:00: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint
<lukehasnoname> perth.
<lukehasnoname> Most expensive place in Autralia, I hear.
<owh> lukehasnoname: Expensive for what? Says who?
<lukehasnoname> living
<lukehasnoname> compared to other major Autralian cities
<lukehasnoname> according to wikipedia or similar
<lukehasnoname> I was thinking about studying in Newcastle for a while, but expenses won't permit (I'm middle class trying to get through college. Cry for me.)
<owh> Well, I don't know about the accuracy of the statement, as that number changes all the time. I know that housing shortages have increased the house price in Perth dramatically and that the mining boom in the state has created employee shortages, but costs seem to be in touch with the rest of the country.
<lukehasnoname> hm
<lukehasnoname> What's an average apartment ("flat") cost, one bed, per month?
<owh> Dunno. We're paying AUD$ 330 per month for a two bedroom home 10 km from the CBD on a bus route.
<owh> s/month/week/
<owh> You're better off looking online for real answers.
<lukehasnoname> 330!
<lukehasnoname> *runs to converter*
<owh> Per week.
<lukehasnoname> oh damn
<jussi01> perth is nice
<lukehasnoname> that's about 1200 USD a month, ya, that's no shock.
<owh> It's got it's good points :)
<owh> lukehasnoname: Yeah, AUD is pretty close to USD at the moment.
<owh> lukehasnoname: It was 2 : 1 for a while a couple of years back :)
<owh> jussi01: How did you get to experience Perth?
<jussi01> owh: i was born in bunbury ;)
<lukehasnoname> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Seabrook-tx-kemah-bridge.jpg
<ogra> do they bury buns there ?
<lukehasnoname> That's the coast of my town
<owh> jussi01: Nice part of the world. Most of my wife's family lives around there, Bussleton, Dunsborough, all good :)
<jussi01> owh: :) Moved to Melbourne when I was 8
<owh> jussi01: Now that's funny. I was born in Mitcham and moved to WA when I was 3 weeks old :)
<jussi01> hehe
<owh> For those reading along, Mitcham is a suburb of Melbourne :)
<jussi01> well actuallyy moved to geelong, but no one over where I live now knows where that is
<jussi01> and perhaps we should move to one of the offtopic rooms
<lukehasnoname> psh
<owh> Nah, I'm hanging around for the ubuntu-server meeting :)
<lukehasnoname> not until 10, er, 15 minutes from now
<jussi01> theres an -au-offtopic yes?
<jussi01> owh: I now live in finland
<owh> O_o
<owh> lukehasnoname: Niice.
 * owh likes small towns.
<jussi01> owh: I married a finnish girl :D
<jussi01> I live in a town of ~120,000
<owh> jussi01: That'll teach ya :)
<jussi01> owh: I like it here
<owh> jussi01: Next you'll be teaching your kids to speak in foreign toungues :)
<jussi01> owh: Kids?... right
<jussi01> My kids are my dog and My hedgehog
<owh> Fair enough.
<owh> But look what princess Mary got herself into, marrying into the Danish Royal Family :)
<jussi01> here are some pics of Tuhina the hedgehog if you are interested: http://lifematta.com/jussi01/photos/
<owh> Nice doggie :)
<jussi01> :D :P
<lukehasnoname> seriously, why was the meeting bumped up? Was 8pm too hard for the blokes on the east side of the Atlantic?
<owh> It's coming up to 11pm, I'm normally fast asleep at this time, but someone scheduled a meeting in the middle of the night, so I'm a little delirious.
<lukehasnoname> It's 10am June 10th here in Houston
<owh> lukehasnoname: It was a consensus thing and I didn't feel that I could cause others to have a meeting in the middle of their night, this way I get to feel some of their pain :)
<owh> jussi01: Now what I really want is a webcam of your hedgehog so I can just have him/her sit on my desktop as a companion without needing to feed or clean up :)
<jussi01> LOL
<owh> lukehasnoname: Hmm, seems Seabrook isn't as small as I thought. I've been round Australia and lived in towns of 1500 people and less, very cozy :)
<sommer> hey all
<owh> o/
<lukehasnoname> Ya, Seabrook has 10k people with a lot of neighborhoods, but Todville (the street going into the distance in that pic) has the fish market and sparse coastal houses. I live just the other side of some trees in that pic
 * owh needs an anti-yawn cream.
<sommer> owh: that only comes in a spray
<owh> I wonder if talking about yawning causes people across the planet to yawn :)
<nijaba> o/
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint
<Koon> \o
<owh> sommer: Excellent, can you email me some?
<sommer> owh: I'll see what I can do, heh
 * owh wakes mathiaz up.
 * owh pulls some navel fluff.
<lukehasnoname> o_o
<owh> So, what's the protocol, do we wait or do we start?
<nijaba> looks like freenode is having issues...
<nealmcb> o/
<nijaba> owh: mathiaz is the chair usually, so as I know is is coming, let's wait for him
<owh> nijaba: Fun, we had that over the weekend also.
<mathiaz> Last meeting log: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080604
<ivoks> mathiaz: openldap was an action
<nijaba> mathiaz I believe your node on freenode was disconnected, so we did not see your intro
<owh> The first I saw was the meeting log link, no start meeting, no coffee or donuts, nothing :)
<Koon> yes, we were caught in the netsplit
<mathiaz> nijaba: mmhhh - I didn't receive any message
<nijaba> mathiaz: We did :(
<mathiaz> this is way I felt lonely - nobody seemed to be around :/
<ivoks> mathiaz: i did get message, too
<ivoks> mathiaz: i was with you, come one! :D
<ogra> so you missed all of owh's sweet navel playing
<mathiaz> ivoks: I know - I noticed that
<nijaba> ivoks: your are on clarke as well
<mathiaz> ivoks: thanks :)
<nijaba> <-- ivoks has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
<nijaba> <-- mathiaz has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
<ivoks> anytime :)
<lukehasnoname> Meeting, anyone?
<mathiaz> allright - let's get started again
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:10. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> \o/
<owh> Well, perhaps that's a whole discussion point in itself, freenode stability for meetings.
<mathiaz> today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<mathiaz> Last meeting log: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080604
<mathiaz> so there was an action about openldap 2.4.9
<mathiaz> this is has been done IIRC
<nijaba> zul did it, yes, I saw the bugmail about it
<mathiaz> nijaba: right - but I don't find the bug number anymore
<ivoks> nijaba: do you have bug number?
<nijaba> bug #237688
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 237688 in openldap2.3 "[SRU] openldap 2.4.9 from 8.04.1." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/237688
<ivoks> ok, nice...
<mathiaz> ok - so the issue is that it won't make it for 8.04.1
<nijaba> so Pitti has acepted the rationale
<mathiaz> and upstream has just released 2.4.10
<mathiaz> which has more bug fixes
<nijaba> mathiaz: really?  it is already in proposed
<mathiaz> nijaba: not in hardy-proposed
<nijaba> you may be right, must be mistaking then
<mathiaz> nijaba: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openldap2.3
<mathiaz> nijaba: zul uploaded a new package in -updates that fixes some bugs
<mathiaz> nijaba: but it's still 2.4.7
<ivoks> right, 2.4.10 is fixes-only
<nijaba> mathiaz: ok, I got it mixed up
<mathiaz> now that 8.04.1 is out-of-reach for 2.4.9
<mathiaz> it may be worth uploading 2.4.10 to hardy
<ivoks> for .2?
<mathiaz> ivoks: for whenever we want
<ivoks> oh, ok
<nealmcb> the only difference is whether it is on the iso?  when would it be in -updates?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: What do you mean ?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: .1 would be on the iso yes
<nealmcb> if it is in -updates, then everyone would get it except right on install from the 8.04.1 iso
<mathiaz> nealmcb: 2.4.10 would be in -updates when the SRU is done
<mathiaz> nealmcb: correct
<nealmcb> righe - so when would that be?
<nealmcb> long delay or pretty soon?
 * nealmcb cares less about the iso than getting a good ldap out ther
<nealmcb> *there
<mathiaz> nealmcb: it's up to us really - if we take the steps to do the SRU we can get it in quickly
<mathiaz> nealmcb: yes. first we'd had to get it into intrepid
<mathiaz> nealmcb: once it's in intrepid, we can SRU it in hardy
<nealmcb> or we could just go with 2.4.9?
<mathiaz> IMO we want 2.4.10 in hardy anyway - it has some good fixes
<nealmcb> ok
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I guess we could upload 2.4.9 to hardy
<mathiaz> nealmcb: and later do 2.4.10
<nealmcb> depends on the timing
<nealmcb> but if it fixes big bugs and is approved....
<nealmcb> but churn is also best avoided...
<mathiaz> zul is not around - but I think we should get 2.4.9 uploaded
<mathiaz> and then when 2.4.10 is in intrepid we can another SRU
<ScottK2> If 2.4.10 doesn't fix any regressions in 2.4.9, then that'd be a good sign to go ahead with 2.4.9 while we work out if we can do 2.4.10
 * mathiaz nods
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul to go ahead with 2.4.9 in hardy as an SRU
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to go ahead with 2.4.9 in hardy as an SRU
<nealmcb> ScottK2: good point
<ivoks> that was only action?
<mathiaz> ivoks: AFAICT yes
<nijaba> I had one with elmo.  I filed and RT and am waiting for the server to be setup for limeurvey
<ivoks> urgh... i have to leave, sorry... i wasn't expecting this... bbl
 * mathiaz waves at ivoks 
<mathiaz> Let's move on then
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Intrepid Specification Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Intrepid Specification Status
<mathiaz> So ScottK2 asked whether we could do a status on the specifications
<ScottK2> Yes
<mathiaz> As of now, all specifications proposed for intrepid should be in pending aproval mode with dendrobates as an aprover
 * ScottK2 is working on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerFlavorSpec
 * ScottK2 isn't sure why it didn't get done otherwise.
<ScottK2> I thought we'd agreed to it at UDS.
<ScottK2> The draft is pretty solid up through the use cases.  The rest still needs work.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: the spec relies on FAI - any reason why tasksel is not enough ?
<ScottK2> Yes.
<ScottK2> With tasksel we can install packages.
<ScottK2> With FAI we can install a set of packages and configure them for a specific use.
<nijaba> because of policy conflicts, IIRC
<ScottK2> Right.
<ScottK2> taskel is a package and can't touch other package configs
<ScottK2> FAI is part of the installer acting effectively as an agent for the user.
 * ScottK2 hopes siretart will jump in any time.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: so that would mean to bring FAI into main
 * CrummyGummy has read the spec.
<CrummyGummy> This is a good idea. I might loose my job...
<ScottK-palm> I'm having some laptop trouble right now.
<ScottK-palm> Last thing I saw was about FAI in main.
<nealmcb> ScottK I don't know much about FAI, but it looks good - makes it easy for folks to further customize the flavors
<mathiaz> Ok - so what other specs people have been working on ?
<ScottK2> He and Yes
<ScottK-palm> I think it gives us a good basis for scalability in the enterprise.
<nealmcb> We have had lots of discussion about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCentralizedServiceAdministrator
<mathiaz> I've written up 4 specs about network authentication and identity managment
<mathiaz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~mathiaz/+specs?role=drafter - in pending approval mode
<nealmcb> is this the place that should have links? https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/~dendrobates
<mathiaz> nealmcb: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~dendrobates/+specs?role=approver
<nealmcb> great - that helps
<mathiaz> kirkland: what your specs ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: what about my specs?  I have written 3
<kirkland> mathiaz: 1) Encrypted ~/Private directory
<kirkland> mathiaz: 2) Boot into Degraded Mode
<kirkland> mathiaz: 3) Swapfile in the installer
<mathiaz> kirkland: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~kirkland/+specs?role=drafter lists 5
<kirkland> mathiaz: true, the remaining 2 are documentation related, and I'm mostly working on those in my spare time
<kirkland> mathiaz: 4) is the documentation search, http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/search.html
<kirkland> mathiaz: 5) is the Ubuntu Manpage Repository, http://ubuntu.dustinkirkland.com/manpages/hardy/
<kirkland> mathiaz: as for 4), newz2000 is doing something similar, based on this for search.ubuntu.com
<mathiaz> kirkland: is your man page site ready for a wide audience /
<mathiaz> kirkland: ?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: have you written up any spec for ufw in intrepid ?
<jdstrand> sorry, I had a power 'event' here and am back online
<jdstrand> I have no backlog
<jdstrand> mathiaz: no spec for ufw as what was discussed was just refining the old spec
 * nijaba wonder if the power event is chipmunk related
<Koon> the return of the revenge of the chipmunk
<jdstrand> I think it is more lightning-related
<mathiaz> Koon: any news on the j2ee front ?
<kirkland> (sorry, I have a nasty kernel hang that has bitten me 3 times during this meeting)
<Koon> mathiaz: dendrobates was supposed to push the question up
<jdstrand> just a guess
<mathiaz> Koon: right - so your technical investigation is finished
<Koon> mathiaz: yes. The final impression is that it's a costly move, but technically (alwaysÃ  possible
<Koon> s/Ã /)
<mathiaz> Koon: ok.
<nealmcb> this one from soren looks like it is old - perhaps dendrobates should be removed as approver or something? https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-easy-business-server
<mathiaz> Anyeone else wants to add something about spec for intrepid ?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: may be - but only him can do that
<nealmcb> several others like that I guess
<ScottK-palm> I'd just like to hear from dendroabtes that mine is being  considered.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: he said he would clean up all the blueprints
<sommer> mathiaz: the intrepid-serverguide spec
<sommer> I've got a good start on the samba sections... just fyi
<nealmcb> on the spec front I'm mainly interested in the plan for gui admin - I've seen several....
<Koon> mathiaz: did Dan Shearer convert his ideas to the blueprint format somewhere ?
<Koon> forget it, I found them.
<kirkland> Koon: i got several emails from danshearer pointing to specs that he started
<lukehasnoname> nealmcb: I think the only conclusion reached is that it won't be X based
<mathiaz> nealmcb: right - have you seen http://augeas.net/ ?
<lukehasnoname> Whether it's based on ebox or written in CLI with a front end has yet to be decided
<nealmcb> ï»¿ï»¿https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/~danshearer
<mathiaz> nealmcb: that seems like a good approach on the backend side
<nealmcb> mathiaz: yeah - briefly - I linked to it from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCentralizedServiceAdministrator
<nealmcb> I wonder what ebox thinks of augeas
<nealmcb> perhaps next week we can get nvxl and the ebox guy and dan and make that an agenda item?
<nealmcb> and continue to discuss on the wiki and mail list in the meantime...
<mathiaz> nealmcb: we could - may be start a thread on the ml
<nealmcb> :)
<mathiaz> nealmcb: right - I'll add an item to the meeting agenda and make sure to invite them to the meeting
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to invite the ebox developer, nxvl and dan shearer to the meeting to discuss system adminstration framework
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to invite the ebox developer, nxvl and dan shearer to the meeting to discuss system adminstration framework
<nealmcb> ...and gui...
<mathiaz> Anything else on the spec front ?
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<mathiaz> We're still doing a lot of merges
<mathiaz> main has 299 outstanding merges
<mathiaz> http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<mathiaz> and universe has 298 outstanding merges
<mathiaz> http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
<mathiaz> anyone interested in packaging should have a look at these lists
<mathiaz> And it's time to get prepared for some iso testing
<Hobbsee> \o/ one merge on there for me
<Koon> mathiaz: I will have a look at that
<Koon> (the merges)
<mathiaz> as we're hoping for an Alpha1 release on thursday
<mathiaz> So don't forget to stop by #ubuntu-testing and the iso testing tracker to help out
<mathiaz> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<mathiaz> That's all folks
<nijaba> thanks mathiaz
<nealmcb> question
<nealmcb> with an emphasis on virtualization, what part of iso testing could/should be done with vms?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I tend to do all the software testing in vms
 * nealmcb should read that link again first :)
<nijaba> nealmcb: vm for 99% of the tests
<nealmcb> I guess I mean ubuntu-vm-builder....
<mathiaz> nealmcb: such as testing the different use cases outlined in the Server Install page
<mathiaz> nealmcb: u-v-m doesn't help
<nijaba> nealmcb: uvb does not apply as we are talking iso
<mathiaz> nealmcb: as it doesn't exercise the iso
<nealmcb> if we are pushing it, more testing of/with it might make sense
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I use vms with preseeded iso and set the vm to boot from the iso
<nealmcb> thanks
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<CrummyGummy> Is there any work being done to get vendors to support ubuntu-server?
<mathiaz> Next week, same place, same time ?
<owh> mathiaz: Earlier would be good :)
<nijaba> owh: not for mathiaz ;)
<Koon> I like that time :)
 * owh is at midnight, but I understand the pain others have gone through, so I'll tough it out if I have to.
 * owh is normally asleep by 9pm :) - awake at 5am :)
<owh> Seriously, don't change it for me alone.
<mathiaz> owh: well - as of now, this time slot suits most of the people
<mathiaz> so see you next week, same time, same place.
<mathiaz> thanks for attending and happy merging !
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later on all
<owh> Thanks all. Thanks mathiaz
<owh> o/
<Koon> o/
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:06.
<siretart> ScottK-laptop: sorry, was at work :(
<popey> @schedule
<ubottu> popey: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<stgraber> Seveas: hmm, the fridge wasn't updated this time ?
<Seveas> apparently not
<Seveas> pity
<Seveas> stgraber, meeting is in 30 minutes, right?
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, that's what I was thinking...
<stgraber> Seveas: yep
<Seveas> 2/5 candidates are here
<forumsmatthew> 3
<Seveas> 2/6, sorry
<Seveas> I only see meisok and rhkfin
<forumsmatthew> I was thinking committee members...my bad
<phanatic> i'll be able to attend the meeting only for an hour
<Seveas> phanatic, I don't think we need that much time
<Seveas> 6 candidates
<Seveas> 2 still with empty wikipages
<Seveas> 1 is kmos
<phanatic> oh, that should be enough then...
<rhkfin> Hey, has the time been changed? I read it was 1800 GMT..?
<rhkfin> I hate time zones.. but anyway, I'm ready..
<Seveas> 1800 UTC is in 24 minutes
<Seveas> @now
<ubottu> Seveas: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 10 2008, 17:37:04 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<Seveas> ubottu needs to be fixed
<ubottu> Seveas: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Myrtti> merh.
<Seveas> hey dear
<Myrtti> emea meeting?
<Seveas> yuo
<Myrtti> not in calendars.
<Myrtti> hence merh.
<Seveas> popey, phanatic: doodle please :)
<phanatic> Seveas: doodle'd already...
<Seveas> ah, sorry, mismatch between name and nick in my brain
<Seveas> PriceChild, you still need to doodle
<phanatic> no problem :)
<stgraber> Seveas: can you send me the URL to next meeting doodle again ? (it's probably lost somewhere in my mails :))
<Seveas> http://doodle.ch/participation.html?pollId=8xt3diunc9ugeaiu
<Seveas> you already doodled
<forumsmatthew> re: doodle.... I had a change of plans, but lost the link to adjust my details. I am no longer free on the 17th...
<stgraber> forumsmatthew: click "edit an entry" (top left) and change yours
<forumsmatthew> stgraber, thanks. That was easy. I need to learn to read the words on the screen, I guess. :)
<Myrtti> Seveas: may I have a word before you start?
<Seveas> Myrtti, sure
<Seveas> Myrtti, you might as well shout now, board members are here
<Myrtti> last week after the Americas membership meeting there seemed to be some misunderstanding about where the cloaks should be requested. I know this is not the case here, but I'd like to remind everyone present that the IRC cloaks are requested at #ubuntu-irc, if on any channel.
<Myrtti> thanks.
<Seveas> Myrtti, is the wikipage updated to say that, last time I looked (a while ago) -ops was the place to go
<Myrtti> Seveas: Pici checked them out IIRC and there should be -irc everywhere
<toros> hi
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, popey, PriceChild, stgraber, phanatic, available?
<forumsmatthew> ready
<phanatic> yep
<stgraber> yep
<Seveas> Daviey, could you send popey another NMI? :)
<Seveas> and if someone can send PriceChild one, that'd be appreciated
 * stgraber goes back to reading wikipages while waiting for popey and PriceChild 
<Daviey> haha
<Daviey> i'll phone him
<Seveas> Daviey, hey it worked last week :)
 * popey arrives
<popey> sorry
<popey> putting kids to bed
<forumsmatthew> that's a worthwhile reason
<Daviey> that ol' chestnut
<forumsmatthew> you are excused :)
<popey> heh
<Seveas> we're 5/7 now, good enough to approve people
<Seveas> shall we start?
<forumsmatthew> +1
<stgraber> yes
 * popey is glad that searching the wiki for emea results in only one hit - handy
<Seveas> meisok, you're the first candidate on the list who showed up. Please introduce yourself
<meisok> oks
<Seveas> ( toros, rhkfin, please prepare an introduction of ~3 lines in a text editor so you can copy-paste it when it's your turn)
<meisok>  My name is Javier Ferreiro, I'm 30 years old. I'm admin of  the ubuntu-es.org for 1 year and 2 months. 	
<meisok> my main contribution will be relations between spanish LoCo teams through the irc, artwork for ubuntu-es, and I participate in all projects that I can and that allows me time.
<meisok> my launchpad page:https://launchpad.net/~meisok
<meisok> and my wiki page:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Meisok
<popey> meisok: do you run the -es bots?
<Seveas> +1 based on long time locoteam work
<meisok> yes, witd jpatrick
<meisok> *with
<beuno> I'd like to express my support for meisok, he's been rocking the spanish community for ages
<Seveas> yeah, the wikipage shows that as well, good work
<popey> +1 based on testimonials
<beuno> I would of thought he made membership a long time ago   :)
<forumsmatthew> +1 based on testimonials and loco work
<phanatic> +1 (loco work + testimonials9
<Seveas> stgraber?
<stgraber> +1
<Seveas> excellent
<beuno> yay!  congrats meisok   :)
<Seveas> congrats meisok!
<meisok> wow thanks1!!!
<Seveas> toros, you're up
<toros> I am a Hungarian Ubuntu LoCo activist. I was born in 1982. I live in Budapest, and I work as a copywriter for an advertising agency. I am an Ubuntu user, open source enthusiast, and FSF.hu (Free Software Foundation Hungary) activist. I write all kind of stuff including news, articles, documentation, press releases, etc.
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<meisok> thanks all! ;)
<toros> I wrote the first Hungarian Ubuntu book, called Ubuntu VilÃ¡ga (The World of Ubuntu) - this is not a book about how to use Ubuntu, but a book about the history, philosophy and technical background of free software and Ubuntu.
<toros> I am the coordinator of the Hungarian Ubuntu Documentation team - now, we are working on a project, to move our documentation to launchpad, usind reStructuredText format and Bazaar VCS.
<toros> I am also active in organising release parties and other kind of Ubuntu and open source related events. Next monday we will have a meeting for open source enthusiast, called Free Software Evenings. I am a co-organiser of this meeting (together with phanatic ;) ). In july, I will travel with other LoCo activists to a local festival, called Hegyalja FesztivÃ¡l, to propagate Ubuntu.
<phanatic> toros is an essential member of the hungarian loco team. he's been helping new community members, and he is involved in all parts of the community.
<Seveas> phanatic, toros: why ubuntu.hu and not ubuntu-hu.org? :)
<toros> ubuntu.hu is more obvious for hungarian people
<phanatic> i don't really have an explanation for that. it just happened this way. the site is actually pretty old (started back in 2005)
<Seveas> you should at least get ubuntu-hu.org forwarded there
<popey> toros: how many people use the blog on the site?
<popey> http://ubuntu.hu/blog
<stgraber> as you are an approved LoCo you really should forward ubuntu-hu.org to ubuntu.hu instead of having the current placeholders
<phanatic> Seveas: we'll work on that
<toros> We have more than 5000 registered users - but only about 1 percent uses the blog
<popey> thats still pretty impressive
<popey> do they blog directly on the site or is it aggregated via rss from their own blogs?
<Tm_T> very good indeed
<Seveas> +1 based largely on phanatic's testimonial. My hungarian isn't good enough to judge ubuntu.hu content :)
<forumsmatthew> between the book, the wiki work, the loco, and the documentation work, I am definitely +1
<PriceChild> I'm here sorry, been working outside and lost track of time.
<toros> directly on the site
<popey> thats great toros
<Seveas> PriceChild, he
<Seveas> hey
<popey> +1 based on loco work
<stgraber> +1, testimonials and loco work
<toros> thanks :)
<forumsmatthew> PriceChild, lol
<phanatic> +1 from me of course :)
<PriceChild> forumsmatthew: is it that hard to believe?
<Seveas> 5 +1's
<Seveas> PriceChild, do you want to vote?
<forumsmatthew> PriceChild, outdoors? what's that?
<PriceChild> I'm a +1 for toros :)
<Seveas> k
<Seveas> +6 then, congrats!
<toros> thanks a lot! :)
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<Seveas> rhkfin, you're up
<Tm_T> welcome :)
<phanatic> congrats toros :)
<Myrtti> congrats
<rhkfin> Ok, hi there! I'm Risto Kurppa from Finland, physics & CS student at Uni Helsinki. I've been an active member of Ubuntu-fi since early 2006. You can see the stuff I've done on the wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RistoHKurppa
<rhkfin> I'm kind of bored of people sticking only to forums or irc and not actively try to spread Linux an OSS. One example of this is passiveness is that we currently have only three (great!) Ubuntu members in Finland. So I'm trying to get people to do other stuff do and see the bigger picture Linux and OS can have.
<Seveas> more finnish people?
<Seveas> Myrtti, have you been spamming again? :)
<rhkfin> Today I started to activate women in finland.. Let's see what happens..
<Tm_T> Seveas: no she hasnt ;)
<Myrtti> rhkfin: I swear to Gaia no :-D
<Tm_T> rhkfin is one of our workhorses <3
<Myrtti> rhkfin: FOUR
<rhkfin> :)
<Myrtti> rhkfin: Tm_T ^
<rhkfin> Tm_T: ah... when did it happen.. congrats..
<forumsmatthew> I love this: "Risto's picture is used as illustration to Code of Conduct"
<Seveas> Myrtti, would you vote +1 for rhkfin ?
<rhkfin> so, questions anyone?
<Tm_T> rhkfin: I was the first
<Myrtti> Seveas: I would
<rhkfin> Tm_T: oh..
<popey> rhkfin: how often would you be releasing your podcast?
<Tm_T> Seveas: 100 % sure +1 from me
<rhkfin> popey: IT's been only 4 times so far (in a year or so), next episode is about to be released. I'd wish more people participating there..
<Seveas>   +1 from me
<rhkfin> But I think once a month is a max the community can do..
<forumsmatthew> +1
<Myrtti> rhkfin: don't you even dare asking me... ;-)
<popey> ( I wont say we do two a month ;) )
<rhkfin> Myrtti: no, I'm waiting for people to let me know they want to do it :)
<Myrtti> I even took a piccie of Risto at Hardy release fest...
<rhkfin> popey: yeah, I'm jeallous..
<Tm_T> Myrtti: evidence :)
<rhkfin> Yep, the next episode will be Mirv (Timo Jyrinki) presenting Ubuntu at the release party
<Myrtti> http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/2442088341/
<rhkfin> So, more questions.. ?
<rhkfin> Myrtti: that's mean :)
<Myrtti> Mirv is in the right and rhkfin on the left
<popey> rhkfin: i see you have done some translation, is that something you plan to do more of, or is your language well covered?
<Myrtti> rhkfin: :-P
<phanatic> +1 for the huge amount of community work
<rhkfin> thanks!
<Tm_T> popey: it's not well covered yet, but we try to do as much as possible in small prints in time to time, similar to hug (bug) days, he's there atleast then I keep sure of it
<Myrtti> there he is, just in time :-P
<Mirv> yay for rhkfin from here :)
<rhkfin> :)
<popey> +1
<stgraber> +1 too
<rhkfin> popey: stgraber thank you
<PriceChild> +1
<rhkfin> PriceChild: thank you
<Seveas> +6 it is
<Seveas> congrats!
<rhkfin> Thank you! So now we're five but we'll try to multiply ourselves soon.. When was the next EMEA meeting :)   And the Finnish LoCo is relatively one of the most active in the world :) (5milj finnish speakers, about 7600 forum registrants
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<Seveas> popey, did you hear anyting from the israelians?
<rhkfin> Thank you!
<Myrtti> *hali*
<popey> Seveas: should I have?
<Seveas> popey, yes, you said you would contact them to see when they will fill their pages and come to the meeting
<popey> erk
<rhkfin> Myrtti: :)
<popey> my bad
<Seveas> ok, let's keep them on there for one more week
<popey> ok
<Seveas> kmos reappplied
<popey> will poke them
<Seveas> I'll poke him
<rhkfin> AFIK the time link on the EMEA page fails, I'd have been here 2 hours later.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA -> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=6&day=10&year=2008&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
<Seveas> rhkfin, oops, my bad
<Myrtti> would you please make sure that the meetings are in the fridge calendar too
<rhkfin> It shows Helsinki & Jerusalem 23:00 and we starter at 21:00..
<Mirv> yup, the link has hours wrontg
<Myrtti> because as the topic states, there isn't a meeting here at all
<Seveas> Myrtti, blame that on the fridge people, I sent them the info
<Mirv> rhkfin: congrats.
<Myrtti> blah
<Myrtti> I will
<rhkfin> But anyway, thanks for everybody..
<Myrtti> I'll SHUN them
<popey> Seveas: where did you send it?
<Seveas> popey, their shuny new address
<popey> i dont see it
<popey> (I am one of them)
<Seveas> hmm, strange
<Seveas> http://doodle.ch/participation.html?pollId=8xt3diunc9ugeaiu is suddenlt empty, wtf
<popey> ubuntu-news@lists.ubuntu.com should work
<stgraber> popey: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news-team/2008-June/000032.html
<Seveas> ah someone deleted it all, that serves my right for sharing the link in #ubuntu-meeting
<Seveas> whoever did that: die please
<forumsmatthew> sigh, some people
<Myrtti> ta-tah
 * Tm_T hides
<Seveas> shall we reschedule same time and day next week?
<Tm_T> ok, my internet time is up, will have my own connection next week etc, see you all later ->
<popey> sure
<stgraber> Seveas: I have it open
<Seveas> iirc only phanatic had that red (but he has most of the week red)
<forumsmatthew> I will be traveling, starting the 17th until the 24th. I trust all of you in my absence, though.
<PriceChild> I'm fine with anything apart from 18th (afaik)
<phanatic> Seveas: yes, my next week is pretty messy.
<stgraber> http://www.stgraber.org/download/doodle.png
<stgraber> that was the doodle before it was destroyed
<Seveas> stgraber, thanks
<Seveas> ok, same time&day next week it is
<forumsmatthew> that sounds fine. sorry I'll miss it. Hopefully I'll be at the one after
<Seveas> meeting ends, thanks all!
<popey> thanks
<stgraber> thanks
<rhkfin> Thank yo
<forumsmatthew> thanks, all
<phanatic> thanks all
<rhkfin> popey: you asked about the translating stuff.. Mirv (+more) has it pretty well covered and I don't feel I'm good at it but have my mission elsewhere. At some stage I just tried some lines and also started to translate KPhotoalbum but never finished - it's not my area of expertise..
<Pretto> nixternal, ping
<nixternal> Pretto: pong
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-11
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 12:00 UTC:  Bugs for Hugs Day | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint
<chattan> What ubuntu 8.04.1 ? would u tell me ?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jun 12:00 UTC:  Bugs for Hugs Day | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jun 12:00 UTC:  Bugs for Hugs Day | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<HardDisk> ubuntu membership for Africa was on the 2nd.. I missed it.
<HardDisk> I'll have to wait for the next one.
<Seveas> HardDisk, and on the 10th
<Seveas> next time will be 17th, 18:00 UTC
<HardDisk> Middle-East/Africa included on the 17th correct?
<HardDisk> I'll just have to make sure Jack_Sparrow and leftyfb are awake then :)
<HardDisk> thanks Seveas.
<HardDisk> I checked the fridge, and it wasn't mentioned anything for the 17th in regards to a EMEA membership meeting, just FYI
<Seveas> HardDisk, they don't know it yet
<Seveas> I'm one of the EMEA board members, I know :)
<HardDisk> haha :D
<HardDisk> Fair enough.
<HardDisk> Seveas, I also have some issues concerning our local LoCo who may I direct my "issues"
<Seveas> HardDisk, LoCo council
<HardDisk> Good to know.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU
 * Rafik is away: TrÃ¨s afk... j'crois que j'suis en train de rÃ©viser
 * Rafik is back (gone 00:00:36)
 * Rafik is away: Je reviens plus tard :)
<stgraber> Rafik: please don't use away message on channels with lot of people (like this one)
 * Rafik is back (gone 00:02:30)
<Rafik> i'm sorry
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team
<pedro_> hello
<mgunes> hi all
 * ogasawara waves
<davmor2_laptop> hello
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team
 * stgraber waves
<sbeattie> [Hey
<pedro_> bdmurray: around?
<bdmurray> pedro_: yep
<pedro_> great, let's get started then
<pedro_> Welcome to the QA Team Meeting
<pedro_> heno is not around today, he's at London IIRC
<pedro_> Today's agenda : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
 * mgunes missed the last meeting due to the time shift
<pedro_> we still don't have bot, right?
<stgraber> mgunes: that and we were in #ubuntu-testing as #ubuntu-meeting was used for another meeting
<stgraber> pedro_: try #startmeeting
<pedro_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:07. The chair is pedro_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pedro_> oh it's working , nice
<stgraber> so we have it :)
<mgunes> stgraber, I noticed the shift minutes to the previous start time, so I really was out of luck ;)
<mgunes> sorry about that
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Hardy 8.04.1 SRU Verifications
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardy 8.04.1 SRU Verifications
<pedro_> I've been looking to the SRU list http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<pedro_> and we have still a lot of verifications to do
<pedro_> some of them are pretty old (more than 30 days)
<pedro_> like the grub-installer ; bug 217348
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 217348 in wubi "Incorrect disk order detection generates wrong menu.lst" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/217348
<bdmurray> Are there 8.04.1 dailies now?
<mgunes> bdmurray, yes
<stgraber> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/hardy/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/hardy/
<slangasek> currently only oversized ones, and alternate-only at the moment
<nxvl> mgunes: hiQ!
<pedro_> Ok so, the process need to be speed up a bit in order to have those fixes included in 8.04.1
<sbeattie> some of the ones sitting with long times are a little more difficult to test I think
<ogasawara> does there currently exist a document instructing reporters how then can enable -proposed and test possible fixes?
<mgunes> nxvl, hello
<stgraber> we have that on the wiki IIRC, give me a second
<mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed ?
<pedro_> yeah i was blogged
<ogasawara> perfect
<pedro_> s/i/it
<stgraber> argh, mgunes was faster :)
<sbeattie> pedro_: I've been hacking on laserjock's script that he posted to give an alternate view of outstanding sru's
<sbeattie> sample output here: http://www.nxnw.org/~steve/tmp/sru_todo2.html
<pedro_> [LINK] http://www.nxnw.org/~steve/tmp/sru_todo2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.nxnw.org/~steve/tmp/sru_todo2.html
<sbeattie> I wanted to be able to see the bug descriptions all in one place, and go through and try to highlight which ones are difficult to test and get attention paid to them
<bdmurray> sbeattie: ooh, that rocks!
<pedro_> that's pretty cool ;-)
<ogasawara> very cool
<mgunes> sbeattie, any objections to publicizing this page (for testers on the forums, etc.)?
<sbeattie> that list is supposed to be what's in main, but there's some universe packages mingling there
<pedro_> sbeattie: [wishlist] could you add a sort method? like one sorting for age (oldest to newest one) :-)
<sbeattie> mgunes: hold off a bit, I'd like to get in a location other than my home server.
<mgunes> sbeattie, alright
<sbeattie> pedro_: ooh, good idea.
<pedro_> you can always move it to people.ubuntu.com ;-)
<sbeattie> Jordan/laserjock has a location on ubuntuwire that I had hoped he would integrate it into
<pedro_> rock on
<pedro_> ok let's assign to us some of the SRU's
<pedro_> any takers for bug 221501 ?
<sbeattie> pedro_: I also want to have it highlight bugs that it can't find testcases for.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 221501 in kickseed "grub-installer failing on Hardy kickseed when "bootloader --md5pass" is set" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/221501
<sbeattie> pedro_: I'll take it
<pedro_> sbeattie: great, thanks you!
<pedro_> i can take bug 217348
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 217348 in wubi "Incorrect disk order detection generates wrong menu.lst" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/217348
<mgunes> I've neglected to start a forum thread (in the development section) in which to post instructions and guide people towards doing some verification (I'm in the process of moving house so really been busy with that)
<pedro_> anybody for bug 218549 ?
<mgunes> now that I'm this late, I'll perhaps highlight the oldest pending SRUs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 218549 in rescue "Choosing "Reboot" in rescue menu jumps to main menu" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218549
<sbeattie> mgunes: oh good, I meant to do that as well, but am happy if you can do that.
<mgunes> sbeattie, I'll do it within the next few hours
<pedro_> mgunes: indeed you may also want to highlight some of the universe ones, there's a couple older than 40 days there :-(
<pedro_> that'd be neat
<mgunes> pedro_, will do
<sbeattie> mgunes: another idea heno had was to have a "Help ubuntu by playing games" post/blog to test for regressions in the gnome-games update in -proposed
<pedro_> mgunes: rock on , thanks
<sbeattie> as a way to get people interested in testing pending packages.
<mgunes> sbeattie, I wasn't aware of that one; perhaps worth doing a separate post
<sbeattie> mgunes: yeah, as a seperate item.
 * mgunes takes note
<sbeattie> pedro_: I can take bug 218549 asuming it's reproducable on the alternative isos.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 218549 in rescue "Choosing "Reboot" in rescue menu jumps to main menu" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218549
<bdmurray> I think that is alternate only actually
<bdmurray> Live CDs don't have the rescue menu
<sbeattie> okay. then I'll it.
<pedro_> sbeattie: ok thanks again
<pedro_> well everybody feel free to take any bugs also from that list and verified them
<pedro_> universe need help also so if you have a couple of free minutes a good idea is to help them also
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Intrepid QA Schedule
<MootBot> New Topic:  Intrepid QA Schedule
<pedro_> bdmurray: ^
<bdmurray> So I've fully updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/IntrepidSchedule and wanted to make sure it looks sane to everyone before e-mailing it out
<bdmurray> I also put an explanation as to waht focus areas mean at the bottom of the page
<bdmurray> Barring any objections I'll send an e-mail about it this week
<pedro_> looks good to me
<pedro_> did you introduced another change besides the 8.04.1 ISO Testing task?
<davmor2_laptop> +1
<bdmurray> The string-fix bit is new and test case review which we talked about
<mgunes> +1
<bdmurray> ogasawara: is the kernel ready for Alpha 1?
<davmor2_laptop> evolution isn't
<sbeattie> bdmurray: what's testcase review?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: I think the Intrepid kernel is still having some build issues
<bdmurray> sbeattie: finalization of ISO test cases
<bdmurray> hmm, I'll add that to the bottom
<sbeattie> thanks
<bdmurray> thank you for pointing that out
<bdmurray> ogasawara: I'll leave the solicit kernel testing for this week on there anywya
<bdmurray> Okay, well that's all I had.
<pedro_> ok, any other business ?
<stgraber> nope
<mgunes> I have a late spec that I'm not sure I can get approval for, now that I've missed the spec deadline.. but probably need heno around to discuss that
<mgunes> I'll post to the list.
<pedro_> mgunes: yep that's best
<pedro_> ok
<stgraber> mgunes: shouldn't be a problem, I still have to spec two of the QA website things. Just ping heno
<pedro_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:46.
<pedro_> thanks everybody!
<mgunes> stgraber, cool, will do :)
<mgunes> thanks, see you all
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubottu> zul: Schedule for America/Montreal: Current meeting: QA Team | 12 Jun 09:00: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 16:00: MOTU | 17 Jun 11:00:  Server Team
<slangasek> @schedule
<ubottu> slangasek: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: QA Team | 12 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00:  Server Team
<sbeattie> slangasek: is it worth putting the 8.04.1 meeting on fridge?
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> I was just checking the schedule to make sure we didn't have a room conflict :)
<sbeattie> Heh
<zul> slangasek: 0700 is when on the west coast again? :)
<slangasek> midnight on the west coast
<zul> ok I can make it then
<slangasek> ah, are you on west coast time now?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu 8.04.1 Team | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team
 * TheMuso fetches breakfast quickly.
<evand> hi
<bryce> heya
<ArneGoetje> morning
 * slangasek waves
 * cjwatson is just grabbing coffee and will be along for the meeting RSN
 * TheMuso returns with breakfast.
<calc> hi
<TheMuso> Hello all.
<doko> god morning
<doko> oo
<james_w> hi all
<asac> hi!
<cjwatson> evening all
<Rafik> midnight here :)
<cjwatson> thanks for getting by in my absence, and sorry I had to leave in a rush before last week's meeting
<cjwatson> if you are expecting a reply from me to a mail, I suggest resending so I know that it needs to go to the top of the pile
<ogra> did you get the one i forwarded today ?
<cjwatson> ogra: I did, I'm going to talk with Chris about that when I'm in the London office tomorrow
<cjwatson> anything else super-urgent that needs to be dealt with?
<ogra> nah
<doko> no
<ogra> i think rich triggered the right thing though
<cjwatson> yes
<cjwatson> ok, let's go on to the agenda then, and AOB can come up at the end
<cjwatson>  * Intrepid specs
<ogra> sorry, i'm behind on paperwork, not done with specs yet
<cjwatson> I'd like to do a quick whip-round and find out where people are with this; I have been starting to catch up on approvals
<ogra> (and i only have three this time :( *blush*)
<liw> I'm just adding blueprints to launchpad
<cjwatson> let's just step through in alphabetical order
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje:
<asac> cjwatson: i linked my blueprints to the Platform page on the wiki
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: font-selector is ready
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: translation statistics need to be reviewed by someone who knows the details about implementation and fill in the blanks
<cjwatson> with regard to linking, the easiest thing for me is if you hit "propose as goal" on the relevant Launchpad spec page and propose it for intrepid
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid/Report/Platform
<cjwatson> but adding them to the platform report page is good too
<bryce> should we be setting them as Review or Pending Approval when they're ready for you to look at (or does it matter?)
<asac> cjwatson: i also suggested as release goal iirc
<cjwatson> bryce: yes please
<cjwatson> I'm ignoring anything that's <= Drafting on the basis that it's presumably still in progress
 * bryce nods
<asac> cjwatson: when do you expect to have cleared your backlog so you have cycles to review/approve them? i would certainly clean them up before that date ;)
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: thanks
<cjwatson> asac: I got through about four or five today, I think
<cjwatson> so the sooner the better
<asac> oh ... ok
<asac> ill flip the switch tomorrow then i guess
<cjwatson> asac: am I correct in assuming that the Intel connection manager discussion is not turning into a spec for intrepid?
<cjwatson> it might be worth writing up properly anyway, just so that we have a record of the state of play
<asac> cjwatson: yes. thats given
<asac> it was more an informative session with the outcome that it wont be ready ;)
<cjwatson> aye
<cjwatson> still, I'd hate for the information to get lost in the swamp
<asac> cjwatson: ill fork the spec out of it and paste the content in that page?
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: (please set font-selector's state in LP to something better than Drafting if it's ready)
<asac> keeping it as "Discussion"? or what?
<cjwatson> Informational, perhaps
<cjwatson> that's a magic state that requires no implementation
<asac> ok. i can look what i can do
<asac> ACTION: asac to make an informational spec out of intel connection manager session notes
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: doing it now
<asac> :)
<cjwatson> bryce: I have a bunch of mail in my inbox from your LP spec actions today, so I assume you're in progress there; anything that is yet to come?
<bryce> yep, there's three that are priority for intrepid:  xorg-input-hotplug, xorg-options-editor, and the xorg testing spec
<bryce> tseliot will be doing the xorg-options-editor spec so I'll be assisting there.  The spec is ready to go.
<cjwatson> I'm still trying to decide what I think about xorg-ctrl-alt-backspace, I must admit
<cjwatson> so glad you don't consider that a priority :)
<bryce> xorg-input-hotplug you've already commented on and I imagine it's going to need some further discussion, but the spec is good to go other than that
<calc> heh my 9mo old son found the ctrl-alt-backspace by accident last week
<TheMuso> heh
<bryce> yeah, there's 2-3 pick-up specs including that one, which *might* be doable for intrepid but are low priority
<bryce> the testing spec was already approved and is sort of an ongoing process, but I've updated the spec for intrepid
<cjwatson> calc: how about you?
<calc> the only spec i know of that i have is the ooo-langpacks which you had mentioned you were going to write up after UDS
<calc> the other one being the release schedule should that have a blueprint of some sort? eg informational?
<cjwatson> ooo-langpacks> I'll dig through my notes for it, but if you have any yourself then please don't block on me
<calc> well write the notes of the meeting somewhere in any case, since you were the one taking them :)
<calc> i don't have any notes from the meeting myself
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> release schedule> yes, there should be an Informational spec coming out of that
<calc> i have the notes for the release schedule meeting though if that should be written up
<calc> ok
<calc> i'll write that up later tonight once i find my notes
<cjwatson> the "implementation" would be entries on the release schedule calendar, or a separate calendar linked from it
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> evand: how are you getting on?
<evand> dvd-performance-hacks approved, ubiquity-visual-refresh approved, and usb-installation-images approved.  Should I draft system recovery for OEMs?  Also, it looks like Ago has drafted the Wubi specification, though I imagine I'll be assigned for part of that, correct?
<cjwatson> err, I skipped doko, sorry, will come back
<cjwatson> (mutter, nick alphabetisation out of sync with real name alphabetisation ...)
<doko> calc, cjwatson: sun still wants to know about our priority reports. we should update that list
<doko> no assigned specs, maybe I should have one for openjdk in main, and probably python3. having mom doing merges from other releases than unstable (e.g. testing) would be another thing being useful for the coming debian freeze.
<cjwatson> evand: please draft oem-system-recovery, yes
<evand> cjwatson: will do
<calc> doko: ok
<cjwatson> evand: wubi> it seems probable, but I'll need to read the spec first; perhaps somebody more lightly loaded can jump in
<cjwatson> I have a suspicion that ubiquity-visual-refresh actually comes to a fair whack of time
<cjwatson> doko: I've heard that MoM can do merges from other releases on request; perhaps you could look into the deployed code and see what's involved there?
<evand> cjwatson: I have the same suspicion, but it's also quite modular.
<evand> noted though
<slangasek> doko: hrm, wouldn't the coming debian freeze suggest it's more useful to merge from /experimental/ instead of unstable?  or are you expecting that the freeze of testing will cause lots of stuff to flow into unstable that's too crazy for us? :)
<doko> slangasek: or even that; but merging from testing means to only merge the stuff which did survive the unstable->testing transition
<doko> getting more stability into our current development release
<cjwatson> mm, the trade-off is unfortunately not entirely obvious; bug fixes can end up getting delayed in that transition for Debian-specific reasons and I'd hate to have to explain that
<cjwatson> I would like to be able to control it on a package-by-package basis
<asac> maybe MoM should be able to present multiple merge options (testing/unstable/experimental) ... the merger can then take what fits best.
<doko> then at least you have to offer both merges
<cjwatson> asac: I believe unfortunately that the hosting machine runs out of disk space if you try to do that
<cjwatson> but doko has access and should be able to experiment
<doko> I do
<asac> i also retrieved a complained by debian that the patches we provide are somewhat outdated
<cjwatson> james_w: I think you just had distributed-development-importer, which is approved; anything else?
<asac> how frequently or when are those recreated?
<asac> ok ... maybe off-topic for now
<asac> lets move ahead
<james_w> cjwatson: nope, I contributed to the packagekit-intrpepid one, which mvo and glatzor are working on. I think that falls in to desktop though.
<cjwatson> asac: they're supposed to be done very frequently, but of course there are operational problems from time to time
<cjwatson> follow that up with doko (or possibly Keybuk)
<asac> cjwatson: thanks.
<cjwatson> james_w: ok, packagekit-intrepid sort of scares me but I should read it :-)
<cjwatson> TheMuso: ?
<TheMuso> I have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDesktopToolsA11yReview and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DmraidSupport.
<TheMuso> both are ready for review
<TheMuso> And have been proposed as intrepid goals.
<asac> TheMuso: will there be a spec about what will be done about the whole PA/sound complex?
<TheMuso> asac: No, its just further work to get things better really. Only thing that needs doing, other than bugfixing and tracking upstream is to get pavucontrol into main.
<TheMuso> Once glitch free lands in an upstream release, things should be much improed in terms of performance.
<asac> TheMuso: ok, idont know about current intrepid state to be honest, but i got the feeling from my last chat with crimsun that not all issues are sorted (packaging wise) and that its still completely unsure what to do in hardy (once flash 10 becomes available).
<TheMuso> asac: I'm not sure either. I would think we push flash10 into     updates...
<asac> thats why i would a short summary on what actually was done in intrepid helpful
<TheMuso> via flashplugin-nonfree.
<cjwatson> TheMuso: thanks, in my review queue now
<cjwatson> perhaps we can cover PA quickly later on, under 8.04.1
<asac> k
<cjwatson> liw: I think we've mostly covered everything of yours already by phone
<cjwatson> so happy to move on by unless you have anything more to add there
<liw> cjwatson, ack
<liw> nothing to add
<cjwatson> liw has a good stack which cover the general area of development of tools just above the packaging layer (though that's probably not the best description)
<cjwatson> oh, and has also volunteered to try to do something with gobby
<ogra> \o/
<asac> liw: great. fix gobby!
 * ogra hugs liw
<asac> brave
 * TheMuso needs to see if he can fix some a11y issues with that at some point, but its not important now. I can use it at least.
<cjwatson> I think the first step there is gluing some revision control into the backend so that we at least have a chance of recovering from failures, like the one that took out the x.org-intrepid notes
<TheMuso> heh and the dmraid notes, and likely other stuff also.
<cjwatson> ogra: I see some recent e-mail from you via Launchpad ;-)
<ogra> heh, yes, but i'm far from being done with draftin
<liw> gobby has an actual server, sobby; sobby already has automatic saving; I added a hook to commit stuff to bzr after sobby writes stuff to files, will discuss with IS about whether they'd want to deploy that
<cjwatson> local-content-filter, compcache [-> kernel team IIRC], edubuntu-menus-completion; anything else?
<ogra> local-content-filter, compcache and the eternally recurring edubuntu-menus-completion are on my list atm
<ogra> nope
<ogra> i could write up soemthing about mesh, but thats probably less of a spec
<cjwatson> I was just going to mention that
 * bryce ouches @ xorg-intrepid notes lossage
<cjwatson> I'd like to catch up with the output of that, since of everything in platform it was probably the thing I knew least about
<ogra> we just identified that none of the drivers support it anyway yet and we have to wait or do weird hacks in software
<bryce> (fortunately it was just an informational spec)
<ogra> ok, i'll sum it up but informal
<cjwatson> all right
<cjwatson> slangasek: anything from you?
<slangasek> cjwatson: no assigned specs, no
<cjwatson> I have some progress on the archive-reorg specification, which I'd like to run by you and perhaps hand over
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> from my end, I also need to follow up on the policy-and-standards session
<doko> which reminds me to start a plugin-policy draft ...
<cjwatson> and by my count there is one remaining unassigned spec, namely boot-performance, so if anyone was in that session and would like to volunteer to write it up properly I'd appreciate it
<cjwatson> the notes are in UDS-Intrepid/Report/Platform
<cjwatson> moving on:
<cjwatson>  * state of 8.04.1
<cjwatson> slangasek: can you give a quick update here?
<slangasek> I have a meeting scheduled with the team at 0700UTC tomorrow, a final push to get everything folks are working on verified and out
<slangasek> the one major unresolved issue that I'm aware of is pulseaudio interaction, which is a topic for that meeting
<slangasek> otherwise, we are on track with the kernel and as soon as we get some livecd-rootfs fixes deployed, we should be able to start rolling test images
<cjwatson> did the gvfs/samba issues get resolved?
<slangasek> not yet; upstream has been working on it but doesn't have a good patch yet, I'm planning to dive into this from the samba side more heavily tomorrow/Friday in the hopes of closing this out as well
<doko> slangasek: stuff not on the CD, but still targeted to hardy still can be updated?
<slangasek> doko: well, because of the OpenSSL issue I believe the scope of 8.04.1 is expanded to include all images (cjwatson, please correct me if I'm mistaken), which means we have to go through an ISO verification process for DVDs also
<cjwatson> yes, there was discussion of doing a quick 8.04.1 with just the OpenSSL change and renaming the July release to 8.04.2, but I think at this point time has moved on such that that would just delay the scheduled point release for not much gain
<asac> slangasek: unless mozilla defers their ffox 3.0 final release, those should definitly get on those images.
<asac> those == final images
<cjwatson> one thing I would still like to do is to move the updated openssl into hardy (release pocket)
<slangasek> asac: you'll be around tomorrow morning to discuss that in detail?
<cjwatson> just to further reduce the risk that new deployments will use it
<doko> slangasek: ok, openjdk isn't on the cd either
<slangasek> doko: s/cd/dvd/?
<asac> slangasek: depends on how long this meeting last ;) ... but yes
<doko> tomorrow morning? will be a hard time for asac ;-p
<doko> slangasek: yep
<asac> doko: today i started at 6:30 :-P
<cjwatson> openjdk-6 is in hardy/universe, so presumably not especially subject to 8.04.1 restrictions except in that the SRU team will be busy with other things
<doko> just should be in the archive when 8.04.1 is announced
<cjwatson> ok, I'll catch up in more detail following the .1 meeting; thanks for that summary
<cjwatson>  * state of Intrepid Alpha 1
<cjwatson> from what I've gathered, the state here is "you fools, you shouldn't have scheduled it during 8.04.1 madness"
<slangasek> roughly
<slangasek> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/ubuntu/20080611.1/livecd-20080611.1-amd64.out shows the packages that are still uninstallable for live CD building, there are still several
<slangasek> evolution-exchange is self-explanatory, as is the apt ABI bump
<slangasek> I don't know what the libffi4 problem is yet
<slangasek> as cjwatson will already have noticed, I'm working on doing the intrepid merges for the various installer components that need to know about intrepid
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-12
<slangasek> but the short summary is, "not happening tomorrow"
<cjwatson> libffi4 was due to gnome-python2-extras needing rebuilt; I was about to poke at that this morning and noticed that somebody else was already doing so
<slangasek> ok; still not resolved in the archive, as of my last attempt to build a livefs a couple hours ago
<cjwatson> installer components> now, cdrom-detect actually *is* almost done, so I'll get that uploaded tonight
<cjwatson> well, gnome-python2-extras and then rebuilds against it ...
<cjwatson> basically libffi4 is NBS and all dependencies on it are now bugs
<slangasek> ah
<doko> the excessive libffi4 deps should be fixed with a recent python-gobject, plus rebuilds
<cjwatson> there is still a rather vast swathe of merges to be done, for which I have no small responsibility
<cjwatson> if you're not on .1 duty or have other urgent things to do, then please do get to these as soon as you have specs written up
<cjwatson> the only other thing I have is to draw attention to Claire's mail regarding the distro sprint
 * TheMuso has started organising flights already.
<cjwatson> unfortunately holding both halves of the sprint side-by-side in London didn't work out, but we will all still be in London on the previously-mentioned dates (14-18 July)
<cjwatson> and there may be some kind of conference link to Lexington during the timezone overlap, so plan anything in advance that you need to work on with the kernel/server/mobile teams
<cjwatson> any other business? I haven't found any in activity reports yet
<cjwatson> I'll take that as a no, then
<cjwatson> adjourned, not too badly over time
<cjwatson> thanks all
<bryce> thanks!
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<slangasek> thanks
<calc> thanks
<liw> merci boucoup
<ogra> thanks
<TheMuso> thanks
<evand> thanks
<asac> thanks
<pitti> hi
<slangasek> morning
 * Hobbsee waves, throws brains around
<evand> hello
<TheMuso> Greetings.
<lool> morning
<seb128> hello
 * slangasek waves
<sbeattie> hey
<kirkland> howdy
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu 8.04.1 Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team
<slangasek> bdmurray: ogasawara: there?
<kirkland> slangasek: fwiw, ogasawara's ACTIVITY report says she's on holiday starting June 13th ...
<kirkland> slangasek: nevermind, it's the 12th today....
<slangasek> zul indicated earlier today that he would be in, but he's not on IRC now; pedro sends his regrets; let's go ahead and get started and we can bring the others up to speed as needed afterwards
<slangasek> kirkland: right :-)
<slangasek> it was fairly short notice, so I'm not terribly put out if not everyone is able to make it
<slangasek> anyway, on with the agenda
<slangasek> - talking through any issues that should be critical for the point release but haven't been addressed
<slangasek> #1) pulseaudio
<seb128> was going to mention this one
<seb128> gvfs smb issues are really annoying too
<slangasek> TheMuso: can you give us a summary of where you think things are right now with pulseaudio?
<seb128> at least for corporate use which we could expect from a lts version
<pitti> also highly popular for home users
<slangasek> yes, but that's #2, let's try to take these one at a time :)
<TheMuso> Ok. I think the biggest issues that users are facing with pulse, is general sound card + pulseaudio interractivity issues, performance/buffering issues, and flash + pulse.
<pitti> are the first two actually pulse issues, or fallout from our alsa userspace/kernel desync?
<TheMuso> The first is hard to track down as I can't reproduce it locally, and some users who have tried 1.0.16 for alsa-lib from intrepid say that it helps them, and some say it doesn't. However in general I don't know what fixes need backporting to fix the issue for those wo find using alsa-lib 1.0.16 helps.
<TheMuso> pitti: I am enclined to think that the first is certainly a fallout from our alsa-lib and kernel being out of sync.
<seb128> is there a lot of changes between 1.0.15 and 1.0.16, would an update be an option?
<pitti> well, if alsa-lib .16 is a stable microrelease with only bug fixes, and since our kernel already has .16, we should at least consider+test upgrading userspace to .16 too
<TheMuso> The second, I'm not so sure of. I/Daniel have suggested users try 1.0.16 for stuttering issues, but nobody as replied. I'll have to poke again.
<slangasek> TheMuso: how broadly reported is the first of those issues?  (Do you have a bug number?)
<TheMuso> slangasek: Give me a minute.
<TheMuso> bug 191027
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 191027 in totem ""Failed to connect stream: Invalid argument"" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191027
<TheMuso> Some users in that bug have stated that 1.0.16 of alsa-lib from intrepid helped.
<TheMuso> seb128: There are a lot of changes, yes.
<TheMuso> seb128: Symbols added/removed/renamed, mostly in the plugins I think, and interfaces depricated as they were depricated/removed in the kernel code.
<persia> FWIW, as one of the users for whom the update didn't solve the Invalid Argument issue for some hardware, it also didn't show regressions on other hardware.
<TheMuso> The third issue is an alsa-plugins/pulse issue in general, which can be partly solved by backporting code from 1.0.16 for lib/plugins.
<slangasek> TheMuso: application-facing interfaces deprecated?
<TheMuso> slangasek: No.
<slangasek> TheMuso: do we ship any alsa plugins that aren't part of the alsa-lib distribution itself?
<TheMuso> bug 221673 is one I have worked on.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 221673 in alsa-plugins "ALSA failing with PulseAudio in Hardy" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/221673
<pitti> TheMuso: that means our userspace alsa .15 is using ABIs in the kernel (.16) which don't exist any more?
<TheMuso> slangasek: Not that I know of, I'd have to check what packages depend on libasound2.
 * ogasawara waves
<TheMuso> pitti: Yes.
<pitti> TheMuso: *gulp*
<TheMuso> And it seems that pulse is hitting some of those issues.
<slangasek> TheMuso: so am I right in saying that it's your assessment that alsa-lib 1.0.16 will /probably/ fix all of the major issues that we should be trying to address for 8.04.1?
<TheMuso> slangasek: Without being able to reproduce them myself, and without having enough feedback to confirm, I would say that it might, but wouldn't want to risk it myself.
<TheMuso> All my sound hardware works here with no issues, worst luck.
<seb128> I think we should consider the update, the current situation seems to be broken anyway
<slangasek> TheMuso: you wouldn't want to risk the possibility of regressions with 1.0.16, or you just wouldn't want to bet on it fixing everyone's problems?
<pitti> TheMuso: does that include the stuttering/latency issues? or do they still need increas of the frame size?
<TheMuso> slangasek: I don't want to risk regressions.
<slangasek> hmm=
<asac> as far as i understood crimsun, we still have to take care that we run set-pulseaudio for default installs once they get the new alsa+flash
<TheMuso> pitti: The problem with stuttering is it fixes it for some, and breaks it for others. I have a range of CPU speeds here and while it works fine on faster hardware, slower hardware gets adversly affected if the frame size/fragments etc is changed.
<asac> e.g. to make alsa use the pulse plugin
<asac> and we need flash 10 to be able to use it
<TheMuso> asac: Not an option. KDE and XFCE don't use pulse.
<TheMuso> asac: Oh you don't mean by default, sorry.
<asac> then at least the flash-blocking other apps from playing sound is not going to work
<TheMuso> slangasek: However, I think there are only added symbols for 1.0.16, and none removed/changed, for interfacing apps at least.
<asac> TheMuso: well ... i ment that for systems with PA we should run it
<slangasek> TheMuso: then I am inclined to defer to you on that point, given how quickly 8.04.1 is coming up on us.  What about other options - are there any isolated fixes that it might help us to backport?
<seb128> debian and fc9 are using 1.0.16 for a while and it seems to work fine there
<slangasek> TheMuso: well, backing up then - what regressions are you concerned about?
<asac> otherwise one of the major broken use-cases will stay unfixed
<TheMuso> slangasek: Applications breaking, plugins that we don't ship in alsa-plugins breaking. As it is, we would have to update -lib and -plugins together.
<TheMuso> But I don't see what option we have at this stage, since feedback from users is mixed, and those of us close to development can't seem to reproduce the issues.
<seb128> do we have extra plugins shipped not in alsa-plugins?
<TheMuso> seb128: I don't know. It would require all packages that depend on libasound2 being checked./
<asac> fta from mozillateam complained that intrepid alsa makes flash 10 + firefox crash: too still
<asac> firefox: pcm_pulse.c:275: pulse_write: Assertion `pcm->last_size >= (size * pcm->frame_size)' failed.
<asac> TheMuso: i poke him to open a bug
<TheMuso> asac: Ok.
<slangasek> is there someone who could help TheMuso with verifying whether we have any other plugins packages that we would have to worry about updating?
<pitti> what does "other plugins packages" mean?
<slangasek> TheMuso: if applications were to break, how would you expect that to manifest, based on what you've seen of the diff?
<slangasek> pitti: packages depending on libasound2 which provide plugins for alsa itself, AIUI
<TheMuso> slangasek: Symbols not being found/calls failing and behaving oddly.
<TheMuso> slangasek: Correct re plugins.
<pitti> ah, like libasound2-plugins (which we don't even install by default)
<TheMuso> pitti: Right.
<seb128> maybe jordi has some ideas about that
<seb128> debian did the update some months ago
<seb128> I can ping him on the topic
<TheMuso> I know for a fact that the alsa devs do their best to preserve binary compatibility, so symbols have not been changed or removed, just added. THings between userspace and kernelspace are constantly changing however.
<slangasek> seb128: ok, that sounds good - if the answer is that debian didn't explicitly deal with this issue, pitti, would you be able to help with identifying the packages we need to worry about?
<pitti> slangasek: yes, I'll find all packages which provide alsa plugins
<pitti> I think we can take it for granted that the entire hardy.1 team will test 0.16 packages on their hardware
<TheMuso> I think apt-file could help here.
<slangasek> TheMuso: you talked about "symbols added/removed/renamed" earlier - does that refer only to plugin interfaces?
<pitti> TheMuso: I'll walk though the reverse build deps, I think
<TheMuso> slangasek: I'll double check, but I am pretty sure that is the case.
<TheMuso> i.e only plugin interfaces.
<TheMuso> oh...
<TheMuso> The sequencer instrument layer was removed. I think thats something to do with app interfacing, but not sure without further digging.
<slangasek> TheMuso: so as far as applications breaking, we can fairly easily establish whether symbol lookups will be a problem (indeed, you seem to have already done this with your statement that symbols have not been changed or removed)
<slangasek> TheMuso: as for calls failing, that's the general, not-easily-quantifiable risk associated with any library upgrade
<TheMuso> slangasek: This is going from the alsa 1.0.16 changelog and vcs comments.
<slangasek> TheMuso: right; given that we have 1.0.16 in intrepid, I can fairly easily inspect the binaries to confirm this
<TheMuso> The more I read into this the more I feel less sure about it.
<pitti> TheMuso: we only have some 30 reverse build depends, and http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=contents&keywords=libasound_module&mode=filename&suite=hardy&arch=any isn't that long either
<TheMuso> pitti: RIght.
<pitti> bluez-audio, bluetooth-alsa, that's it
<pitti> and we need to rebuild ia32-libs afterwards
 * TheMuso nods.
<slangasek> TheMuso: my overall conclusion is that we really should pursue 1.0.16 as a possible SRU candidate; there is some information we still need to gather as part of that process, but that's not a huge problem...
<slangasek> TheMuso: otherwise, what alternatives would you suggest?
<TheMuso> slangasek: I agree.
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> can we test hardy 0.16 packages in a PPA first?
<slangasek> TheMuso: please go ahead with preparing the SRU itself, so we can evaluate it as soon as all the information is in place
<pitti> if the packaging changes are negligible, we can also backport the intrepid version
<slangasek> preparing via SRU if appropriate
<slangasek> let's move on from here though, there are other topics to touch yet
<pitti> but if anything moved around in the packaging, we shuold rather update hardy's version to 0.16 upstream only and keep the packaging
<TheMuso> pitti: Sure. I know that the intrepid alsa-lib builds fine on hardy.
<slangasek> eh, s/SRU/PPA/, whatever :(
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> so, moving on
<TheMuso> I'll check for that sort of thing as well. I think the only change is patches that hardy's version currently has that have been dropped.
<slangasek> gvfs/samba
<slangasek> seb128: hi :)
 * TheMuso will start digging tomorrow.
<seb128> hey ;-)
<seb128> so there is several issue there for sure
<seb128> some seem to be due to libsmbclient
<seb128> some others due to gvfs-smb
<seb128> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gvfs-list/2008-May/msg00005.html summarize those
<slangasek> gvfs-smb is based on libsmbclient, though, I'm not sure what the distinction there is
<slangasek> I mean, before gvfs-smb, we didn't have these problems with smb...
<seb128> the main issues are bug #207072 which is that gvfs-smb gives to way to authentificate to browse shares
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 207072 in nautilus "nautilus does not display samba shares for machines inside an ADS network." [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/207072
<slangasek> yes
<seb128> that's purely a gvfs-smb issue
<seb128> the other one is http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529277
<ubottu> Gnome bug 529277 in smb backend "cannot mount smb share when its subdirs are accessible but its root not" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<slangasek> I think that's a much lower-priority issue though, and don't think we should be concerned about fixing that for .1
<seb128> alex who is upstream for gvfs (and on holidays but he replied to the mail on the list) stated that this one is a libsmbclient issue
<seb128> "This is really a libsmbclient problem. The stat of the root is just an
<seb128> artificial way to trigger the mount operation. The reporter seems to
<seb128> have some ideas how we could try to work around this.
<seb128> "
<seb128> the lack of testcases or way to easily set up a configuration that triggers those mounts issues doesn't make the thing easy to work on
<seb128>  
<slangasek> mm
<seb128> what issues would you consider that should be fixed in 8.04.1?
<seb128> I would say that the "fail to mount" bugs are the main problem reported
<seb128> because it means users can't access those shares at all
<slangasek> the ADS authentication issue is a big one, as is bug #209520 (it appears)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 209520 in nautilus "SMB error: Unable to mount location when server configured with security=share" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209520
<seb128> right, that's my opinion too
<seb128> the security=share bug is a mess though
<seb128> too many random comments from people having different issues there
<slangasek> configurations where you can mount the share but not access the root directory of that share, while not impossible, are certainly pathological from the POV of the current code
<slangasek> yeah, I'm well aware :/
<slangasek> I've blocked some time to go through those two bugs later this week to work on them from the samba side
<slangasek> so if test cases are what upstream needs, I should be able to cook some
<seb128> that would be great
<slangasek> ok; any other issues that aren't getting enough attention for .1?
<asac> well ... something related.
<asac> i have some hard time getting crash feedback from -proposed users
<asac> anyone working on getting dbgsym package for -proposed?
 * slangasek wrinkles his nose.  Why are you having crashes in -proposed? :)
<seb128> asac: we have dbgsym for proposed
<asac> seb128: really? then its my fault :)
<asac> or are they somewhere else?
<seb128> $ apt-cache policy xulrunner-1.9-dbgsym
<seb128> xulrunner-1.9-dbgsym:
<seb128>   InstallÃ©Â : (aucun)
<seb128>   CandidatÂ : 1.9+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.04.1
<seb128>  Table de versionÂ :
<seb128>      1.9+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.04.1 0
<seb128>         500 http://ddebs.ubuntu.com hardy-proposed/main Packages
<seb128> asac: ^
<seb128> asac: do you have an hardy-proposed ddeb source?
<pitti> asac: in general we should have the .ddebs, yes; of course they are subject to the usual brittleness of the ddeb retriever
<asac> slangasek: crashes are my daily breakfast :)
<asac> seb128: ok thanks. I'll verify that the instructions we post have the proper ddebs lines.
<asac> done on this topic i guess
<seb128> asac: the wiki stock reply probably only mention the hardy ddeb sources and not the pocket ones
<asac> yeah
<slangasek> so I guess no one else has any bugs that they think are not way off the map for .1
<slangasek> how about bugs that you guys need a hand with?
<pitti> photos were one of my pet concern, but it has sufficiently be ironed out in -updates
<slangasek> pitti: abiword 2.6 is still marked as "in progress", is that still on your radar anywhere?
<pitti> oh, hm
<pitti> it needs quite a few new build dependencies, which makes this somewhat tricky for -updates
<pitti> since we'd need to promote them to main in hardy-updates (eek)
<pitti> the package itself works quite well, no concern about that
<seb128> having 2.6 in hardy-updates would be nice to not get upstream angry against ubuntu ;-)
<pitti> and they aren't really optional
<pitti> (the new build deps)
<slangasek> seb128: well, I'm not keen on breaking the archive to keep them from being angry, either
<seb128> right
<pitti> in earlier times, -backports didn't care about components, but nowadays it does unfortunately
<pitti> otherwise -backports would be a good compromise
<slangasek> pitti: we should at least make a final decision on this from an SRU standpoint this week, deciding whether to mess with promotions or to send upstream our regrets
<pitti> TBH I only considered this at all for SRU back then because they got so mad about us
<slangasek> any others?  I have 53 milestoned bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.milestone%3Alist=1264 that are 'fix committed' or 'in progress' - anything that anyone wants a hand with, or are these mostly Not Yours? :-)
<slangasek> (lots of kernel bugs in that list, of course)
 * seb128 is looking
<slangasek> seb128: I see bug #150187 assigned to you, still at 'triaged' - IIRC we don't have a solid patch for that yet, should we defer it until .2?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 150187 in poppler "[gutsy] [regression] Evince has very bad quality when printing pdf files." [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150187
<pitti> once we get CD images for testing, we can verify all the installer related fixes
<pitti> so soon we should be able to do quite a few moves to -updates
<seb128> slangasek: yes, I've been doing some poppler backporting for this one but no luck so far, I think it's not likely to me in 8.04.1
<pitti> other than that, the things that stick out, verification-wise, are python2.5 and the -geode mess
<seb128> we got also some angry users about DVD drives not recognizing discs in hardy but those lack details for now and pitti is looking at the issue
<pitti> for the latter, I'll look on the patches that Q-FUNK sent and sponsor them
<slangasek> seb128: bug #?
<pitti> seb128: that's another messy bug :/
<seb128> bug #220957
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 220957 in nautilus-cd-burner "Fails to see blank CD/DVDs for writing" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220957
<seb128> and bug #200337
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 200337 in nautilus-cd-burner "CD/DVD burning problem in hardy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/200337
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> now, on the subject of CD testing
<slangasek> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/hardy/daily-live/current/ is up; as of today, they should be proper, CD-sized images with the right set of packages
<slangasek> so anyone who's done with their other .1 work, it would be very helpful if you could smoke test these and also help with the verification of those installer fixes that apply to the live CD
<slangasek> the alternate CDs are still not quite right in the head, but I'm working on those tonight still and will email the team when I have them sorted
<evand> yay, thanks for taking care of that
<sbeattie> that would be great. I was trying to verify a couple of installer bugs tonight, but ran into the alternative cd kernel problem
<slangasek> ... and then, because of the OpenSSL issue, we are going to have to roll new images for pretty much everything released with 8.04, which means the iso testing matrix is again pretty substantial; so we're going to have to get testing resources lined up fairly soon here... just as soon as we get some images themselves
<slangasek> and we're at time, and I have nothing left to cover; anyone else?
<sbeattie> For SRU verifications, it would be great to make sure there are testcases in the descriptions
<seb128> about updates, is that still worth to do some sru uploads now?
<seb128> or should we stop until 8.04.1?
<slangasek> sbeattie: I've noticed the biggest offenders there are the kernel team, you might want to take that up with them directly :)
<sbeattie> heh
<sbeattie> those and the generic package upgrades as well.
<seb128> I guess we can upload and things which are not suitable can stay in hardy-proposed or unaccepted until 8.04.1?
<ogasawara> sbeattie: I can help you with hassling them :)
<slangasek> seb128: that's acceptable to me, if it's acceptable to pitti as well
<asac> i might have been to busy to get the news, but which date are we now targetting for 8.04.1?
<slangasek> seb128: of course, the major issues we identified tonight are exempt and will be approved within reason :)
<pitti> slangasek: WFM
<slangasek> asac: ah, good question
<seb128> ;-)
<slangasek> so originally, .1 was scheduled for the first week in July; then the prelim intrepid schedule came out which had alpha 2 releasing the same week
<slangasek> Keybuk tentatively pushed .1 back to the second week in July as a result
<pitti> hm, then we'll have the sprint
<slangasek> but, given the current status of intrepid, I'm thinking it would be better to put .1 back on the first week and do the alpha the second week
<slangasek> so anything else that we want to get in those images needs to be in the archive by around Monday of next week in order to keep that timeline
<asac> ok that information is good enough for me to get the idea. thanks
<seb128> july 7 to 12 is GUADEC in case that's revelant to this discussion
<seb128> (ie some people will be away for the conference)
<asac> yeah, lets release and get on holiday :)
<slangasek> well, the week of the release should consist entirely of release engineering and QA, if a developer conference is interfering with that then we have problems :-)
<slangasek> so, anything else?
<slangasek> going, going...
<slangasek> adjourned
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<asac> cheers
<seb128> thanks slangasek
<sbeattie> thanks
<TheMuso> Thanks.
<pitti> thanks
<evand> thanks
<kirkland> thanks!
<seb128> slangasek: btw reading the meeting summary sent this morning, those python-gnome-extras and evolution-exchange installability issues should already be fixed no?
<seb128> slangasek: I gave a build retry yesterday to gnome-python-extras after fixing other issue and that worked and evolution-exchange built too after fixing the gtkhtml dependencies bug
<slangasek> seb128: --> #-devel
<seb128> right
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team
<pitti> hi
<\sh> mahlzeit .)
 * mvo waves
 * tedg waves back
<seb128> hey
<pedro_> hello!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team
<seb128> Keybuk: hey ;-)
<Keybuk> good afternoon
<pitti> hello Chief Engineer Mr. Scott
<Keybuk> Chief Engineer? :p
<pitti> (original Star Trek)
<Keybuk> ahh
<kwwii> you are supposed to say something in klingon to impress him
<pitti> nuQneH?
<Keybuk> tlInghan Qol ji'jatl
<kwwii> hehe
<Keybuk> anyway, meeting time
<Keybuk> I didn't see any agenda items today, does anyone have anything they'd like to discuss?
<pitti> originally I had to (gdm guest login), but I cleared it with our Gnominator already; it does mean that the spec still didn't get finished yet, though
<pitti> but I wondered about the priority of it
<Keybuk> pitti: what was the outcome?
<pitti> i. e. is it worth working with upstream gdm and find a common solution, at the expense of it taking longer
<pitti> or do we want it in intrepid, and we go for a custom solution without involving gdm?
<Keybuk> this is Mark's spec
<pitti> Keybuk: new gdm has preliminary infrastructure for guest account; I asked upstream about their plans on the ML, and pointed out our ideas
<seb128> I don't think the upstream solution is going to take that longer
<pitti> I'll wait for some answers anyway before I decide and finish the spec
<Keybuk> I think that it is very important for intrepid
<seb128> as said fedora is working on a guest account thing to and they have some infrastructure bit in gdm already for that, so we just need to discuss what they plan exactly and work with upstream and getting that
<pitti> Keybuk: ok; maybe the prio should be higher than "low" then?
<Keybuk> yes
<pitti> so I guess I'll start with the wrapper around gnome-session and create a couple of AppArmor rules to lock it down
<Keybuk> ok, cool
<Keybuk> how's everyone doing with spec writing?
<pitti> 4 review, 1 to go (guest)
<kwwii> mine are all done :p
<tedg> Well, did you get my e-mail about NAP Apps?
<seb128> 3 written, the photo review experience one to convert in upstream bugs still (lot of things listed there)
 * mvo thinks his are ok
<Keybuk> tedg: I did, I'm speaking to Jane right after this ;)
<mvo> I can not set packagekit-intrepid to review myself because I do not own it though
<Keybuk> mvo: I fixed that, you can set it again
<tedg> Keybuk: :)
<mvo> InrepidDesktopEffects and LTSUpgrades should be good too (also the later is less urgent :)
<seb128> mvo: oh, intrepid is not going to be a lts? ;-)=
<Keybuk> seb128: it might be ;)
<Keybuk> (* note: lie)
<seb128> lol
<mvo> heh :)
<mvo> thanks Keybuk
<pitti> "Lots of Trouble Software"?
<Keybuk> "Let's Troll Seb"
<Keybuk> once your specs are ready for review, and proposed for intrepid, and at review
<Keybuk> please nag me
<Keybuk> and I'll review them
 * pitti nags Keybuk
 * seb128 nags Keybuk
<tedg> ITEITMFT: It's too early in the morning for this
<Keybuk> not right _now_
<Keybuk> when I'm less in London
 * Hobbsee nags Keybuk anyway, although she has no specs.
<Keybuk> Hobbsee: would you like some? :p
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: well, you did ask :P
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: oh, i don't know.  maybe, depending on what htey are :P
 * seb128 gives the photo experience review to Hobbsee
<kwwii> Hobbsee: it is my job to make Keybuk's life hard :p
<seb128> Hobbsee: that's just a zillion f-spot bugs to file upstream and to fix then
<Hobbsee> kwwii: only yours?
<kwwii> Hobbsee: I am good at what I do ;-)
<Hobbsee> seb128: enotpublic?
<seb128> Hobbsee: the notes are on gobby.ubuntu.com
<seb128> Hobbsee: that's a list of issues noted during the review
<seb128> Hobbsee: that's to be converted in a list of bugs ;-)
<Keybuk> ok, let's keep this one short then
<Keybuk> any other business?
<Hobbsee> oh, there it is
<pitti> if anyone happens to have an hour when he doesn't feel like using his brain a lot, please help testing the 8.04.1 test CDs
<lukehasnoname> any formal process to that?
<lukehasnoname> Like a QA test?
<pitti> lukehasnoname: for now, primarily a smoke test
<pitti> it's definitively not the final image yet
<pitti> just check if all images install at all
<lukehasnoname> aka try it and report SNAFUs
<pitti> (all packages are in place, installable, right kernel, that)
<mvo> pitti: on the usual place on cdimage.ubuntu.com?
<pitti> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/hardy/
<Hobbsee> pitti: how long do you have ot test them?
<Hobbsee> seb128: now, you might get lucky, and i might end up helping out with that.  not for a copule of weeks, though
<pitti> we'll build new ones in a week or two, I'd expect
 * mvo runs rsync
<Hobbsee> shucks.  it's the 12th of june.  last i checked, it was the second of june.
 * lukehasnoname wishes my laptop had a VM capable CPU
<Hobbsee> should have done an rsync before the 7th.
<Hobbsee> lukehasnoname: ...it doesn't?
 * seb128 hugs Hobbsee
<pitti> ok, thanks everyone
 * Hobbsee hugs seb128
<lukehasnoname> T5550, I got "op not permitted" when modprobing kvm-intel
<lukehasnoname> when sudoing
<mvo> lukehasnoname: sounds like it might be disabled in the bios
<lukehasnoname> unless I was just reading something wrong
<lukehasnoname> I'll have to check when I get home
<lukehasnoname> in 13 hours
<mvo> lukehasnoname: for some reason a lot of models have it disabled in the bios
<Hobbsee> lukehasnoname: you don't have to use kvm.  you can use virtualbox and such.
<lukehasnoname> I know... but I'd like to use KVM
<lukehasnoname> I'm trying to learn virtualization setup and admin using KVM in Ubuntu
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<udienz-> @schedule Jakarta
<ubottu> udienz-: Schedule for Asia/Jakarta: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 13 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 14 Jun 03:00: MOTU | 17 Jun 22:00:  Server Team | 18 Jun 13:00: Platform Team | 19 Jun 00:00: QA Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-13
<karigor> #ubuntu
<Laney> @schedule london
<ubottu> Laney: Schedule for Europe/London: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 13 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 21:00: MOTU | 17 Jun 16:00:  Server Team | 18 Jun 07:00: Platform Team | 18 Jun 18:00: QA Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jun 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community
<lukehasnoname> motu coming up?
<siretart> I'd think so
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community
 * persia looks about for a volunteer chair
<persia> No volunteers?  Who is here for the MOTU Meeting then?
 * siretart 
<mario_limonciell> i am, but i'm also in another meeting
<siretart> ScottK: around?
<ScottK> Yes
<persia> ScottK: Willing to chair?
 * ScottK thanks persia for volunteering
 * persia has an agenda item
<siretart> ;)
<ScottK> Who else is here?
<ScottK> I'll chair if someone else agrees to do the minutes?
<persia> I'm happy to do minutes.
<ScottK> Urgh.
<ScottK> OK.  Anyone else around?
<ScottK> It's 5 after, so I guess we start.
<siretart> we
<ScottK> Does someone have a link to the agenda?
<siretart> well, there over 100 people lurking in this channel ;)
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings/
<siretart> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<ScottK> persia: Looks like you're up first.  Go.
<persia> The Ubuntu Contributing Developer team doesn't have an emblem, which was one of the things we planned to offer when discussing the team.
<persia> A couple of people have put together some possible candidates for an emblem at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Teams/Emblems
<persia> I'd like to pick one, and put it in LP to show up on all the members emblem lists.
<persia> So, there are two parts: to confirm we want an emblem, and to select one of the three on offer if we do.
<ScottK> Neither mok0 nor sebner are here.  So I guess it's fair.
<persia> So, on the first, does anyone have strong feelings that we should or should not have an emblem?
<siretart> persia: are you sure that the motu meeting is the appropriate corpus to decide on this matter? I would expect it under the motu council's competence to decide on this matter
<ScottK> siretart: I think it should come to the meeting.
<ScottK> MC can execute policy, but not decide it.
<persia> siretart: I tend to prefer things to come from MOTU Meeting unless specifically delegated to MOTU Council, but MC can do it if no decision is taken here.
<ScottK> We can always vote to let the MC decide.
<persia> Or even just get consensus without an explicit vote, although 3 is a small quorum for all of MOTU
<siretart> ScottK: ah, so the council is only doing decision if they are asked for for one?
<persia> siretart: As I read the charter, MC can take a decision if either asked or if MOTU is clearly unable to take the decision.
<ScottK> siretart: The general framework we've been operating under is that MOTU as a whole are responsible for management of Universe.
<ScottK> siretart: MC only has the power MOTU choose to delgate to it.
<ScottK> Tech Board has also delgated some stuff to them, but that's a separate issue.
<siretart> persia: okay. In this case I herby ask the council to make the decision because I don't see MOTU in general and this meeting in particular unnable to make a decision about this
<ScottK> persia: You want to second the motion?
<persia> ScottK: No, but I'll take it to MC on that basis if you don't have a specific preference.
<ScottK> Any objections to taking it to MC?
 * ScottK waits ...
<ScottK> 5
<ScottK> 4
<ScottK> 3
<ScottK> 2
<ScottK> 1
<ScottK> Without objection, so ordered.
<ScottK> Next.
<ScottK> siretart: Over to you.
<siretart> As I've already done on the mailling list, I wanted to inform MOTU in this meeting that we have a new LP liason
<siretart> I have been asked by LaserJock to take this over after some private conversations
<siretart> and since I think that I'm qualified for this job, I accepted.
<siretart> I wanted to point out in this meeting that I'm explicitly asking for help in this job
<persia> siretart: What sort of help do you need?
<siretart> I know that other people have volunteered as well, but they didn't contact me yet
<siretart> persia: keeping track of motu related bugs, discussion their relevance, prioritizing them motu wise and writing up launchpad release reports for motu
<siretart> basically what I summarized in my opening email
<ScottK> Anything else?
<siretart> well,
<siretart> there is currently a ffmpeg transition going on
<siretart> many packages in universe FTBFS because of some API changes
<siretart> I would be very grateful if someone fixed the packages and notify me to forward relevant patches to debian
<persia> How are we tracking transitions these days?  I know we've stopped using bugs, but I'm not sure what is replacing that.
<ScottK> On that note, I'd like to add that most clamav rdepends are currently FTBFS and the Debian maintainers seem to be MIA.  I'll provide pointers if someone wants to work on that.
<ScottK> I suspect mostly we aren't.
<siretart> persia: I think by compiling a list of affected packages in a text file and mail them to ubuntu-motu@l.u.c
<siretart> at least that's how we did that in the psat
<siretart> and that procedure does work in debian as well
<persia> siretart: OK.  I don't remember doing that before, but it was never clear to me how they were tracked between the wiki tracking period and the bug tracking period.
<ScottK> siretart: Perhaps you would be willing to bring a proposal to the next meeting on how we ought to be doing it.
<siretart> persia: well, I may be biased here a bit, because I actively refuse to track such things in wiki.
<ScottK> Personally, I think if people could just unubscribe from individual bugs we could use the transition bugs just fine.
<ScottK> Perhaps our LP liaison could take that up with them.
<siretart> ScottK: I'm not sure if I understand. The 'how' is rather obvious: fix the package
<ScottK> How to track it.
<siretart> hm
<ScottK> The problem with the mass affects bug is that you can't get away from the bugmail if you are subscribed to a package that was ever effected.
<persia> ScottK: In the absence of that feature, it can get annoying though.
<siretart> yes, that's rather unsuited.
<ScottK> If people could just unsub from inidividual bugs, then we could use it.
<ScottK> persia: I agree.
<siretart> we could use lp tags for tracking these bugs
<persia> siretart: Is that one already on your list?
<siretart> and have a dedicated 'transition maintainer' to enforce the correct usage of that tag
<ScottK> siretart: I think not.  Filing a pile of inidividual bugs is painful.
<persia> siretart: Having one bug per package for a transition?  That's just a lot of bug churn, and makes it hard to script a set of changes when one does 10-15 in a day.
<ScottK> With one also affects bug, it's one mail to LP and it's done.
<ScottK> Yes.
<siretart> persia: that would be bug #204980
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 204980 in malone "bug contacts should be able to unsubscribe from implicit subscriptions" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204980
<persia> Yes, precisely.
<siretart> ScottK: you can script filing individual bugs unsing the malone email interface. I imagine reviving the lpbugs.py script
<siretart> IIRC, we used individual bugs to track merges
<siretart> I don't remember why we stopped doing that
<persia> Some of us still do.
<ScottK> siretart: That's another long discussion.
<persia> And one that ought be on the agenda, rather than in AOB, as it's been a heated subject of discussion in previous MOTU Meetings.
<ScottK> Yes.
<ScottK> siretart: Did you have anything else on MOTU/LP liaison?
<siretart> ScottK: no. it was supposed to be a short informational item
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> I have one other short informational item.  Anyone else?
 * ScottK starts.
<ScottK> I just wanted to mention that motu-sru is having a meeting on Monday to integrate the new members and baseline where we are.
 * ScottK expects something to come out of that meeting to be discussed at the next MOTU meeting.
 * ScottK finishes
<persia> Do you seek external attendance at the meeting?
<ScottK> persia: We haven't sought it, but it's certainly not private.
<ScottK> Personally, I think it would be useful.
<persia> ScottK: It's at 21:00, right?
<ScottK> Yes.
 * persia will so note in the minutes
<ScottK> Anyone have anything else?
<persia> Next meeting is the 28th, 04:00 UTC
<ScottK> OK.
 * ScottK moves that the meeting adjourn.
 * persia seconds, wondering why the chair is making a motion
<ScottK> Because it's a small meeting.
<ScottK> Any objections?
<ScottK> Meeting adjourned.
<siretart> thanks for chairing, ScottK!
<ScottK> No problem.
 * siretart is pretty sad that we don't have a better way of determining the common will of the MOTU other than MOTU meetings
<persia> siretart: Any suggestions?
<ScottK> That would be another good topic for discussion.
<siretart> persia: well, my suggestion would be to elect delegates that act on behalf of MOTUs
<persia> siretart: Well, we have MOTU Leaders, who take responsibility for various areas.
<ScottK> siretart: I think we are a small enough community we can act directly on most policy decisions.
<persia> My feeling is that they ought be able to do things pretty much as they like, subject to oversight by MOTU Meeting.
<persia> (with MC as backstop if MM is unable to take a decision)
<persia> I'd hope any of our leaders would be leading in a direction others follow, or that someone would speak up.
<ScottK> siretart: My suggestion would be stuff gets announced on MOTU ML before a meeting.  Discussed at the meeting where someone gets selected to chair the discussion.  Minutes get published and the issue 'chair' askes for feedback on the ML.
<siretart> ScottK: I'm not sure if I agree. See, in this meeting exactly 3 motus showed up, and I don't think this meeting is that special
<ScottK> Then on the ML, the chair judges the rough consensus of the MOTU and declares a result.
<persia> It's the least-attended MOTU Meeting I've attended in the past year, but that's not special in a good way.
<ScottK> If someone thinks the chair is wrong they can appeal to the MC.
<ScottK> That way everything gets confirmed on the ML and everyone can have a voice.
<persia> ScottK: I'm not sure if I like pushing everything to ML, just from a time perspective.  I rather like the relative speed with which decisions can be taken at MOTU Meetings.
<siretart> my feeling is that the motu community lacks guidance. like in someone that proactively identifies problems and makes suggestions to solve them
<siretart> I currently feel that we are doing PDSD
<siretart> (panic driven software development)
<persia> With the strong precedent of discussion at two consecutive meetings for contentious issues, I think everyone has a chance to attend, if they wish.
<siretart> persia: you raise an intersting point. I have the feeling that the motu meetings continuesly fail to make decisions when they are needed
 * persia thinks motu-release is the body that ought be proactively identifying the things to be done.
<siretart> ScottK: do you agree here?
<persia> siretart: What decisions do you feel are not being made?
 * persia puts on the MC hat, to consider decisions that are otherwise not taken
<ScottK> persia: It's hard to say.  As a volunteer entity it's hard to say how overall release decisions can be made.
<ScottK> People have to want to work on stuff.
<persia> ScottK: Maybe, although I had a lot of success with my Hardy QA goals email.
<ScottK> Anyone know off the top of their head which RFC tells me how to make a DNS packet?
<persia> Things like that could provide strong hints for those who "just want to help out".
<siretart> persia: I remember quite some published meeting minutes saying 'not enough opinions could be found in the meeting, so it was defered to the next meeting'. With all sort of variants why the point has been deferred
<persia> ScottK: Isn't it 1035?
<persia> siretart: There's heaps of those, but my memory is that for most of them a decision was taken at the following meeting.
<ScottK> persia: Yes.  Thanks.
<siretart> persia: I think at this point we'd need to do some statistics
<persia> siretart: Agreed.  I'll take that possibility to the MC, and if there are things being missed, one of us will bring them back to MOTU Meeting to ensure that a decision is taken.
<persia> (of course if someone else wants to also do a MOTU Meeting minutes review to check our work, that would be appreciated)
<siretart> persia: it may perfectly be that I'm totally wrong here. it is rather a general feeling I have when rethinking the work I've done on and in ubuntu the last few years
<ScottK> I agree that that happens on contentious issues.
<siretart> and my feeling is that we are becoming more and more a medium sized group of developer, with a very silent majority that generally is not asked and does not actively participate in making decisions
<ScottK> There are never enough MOTU at any one meeting that they feel comfortable deciding for the others.
<persia> siretart: Feelings are important.  Regardless of whether you are correct, it's worth doing the statistics and publishing the results.
<ScottK> That's why I think asking for consensus on the ML can get past some of that.
<siretart> one problem is that we don't even have means to ask the whole motu community on their opinions on certain matters
<siretart> of course everyone is free to post to the mailing list, but that's not a proper vote
<persia> On the other hand, I'm against pushing things to mailing lists: I really don't like mailing lists as a means of making decisions.
<persia> I also don't like delegating to people without a means of group oversight.
<siretart> persia: no, mailing lists suck at making decisions. however they are great for soliciting and collecting opinions
<siretart> persia: I agree
<persia> Yeah.  Let's add "Making decisions in MOTU" to the next meeting agenda.
<siretart> persia: MC or MOTU Meeing?
<persia> ScottK: Would you be willing to write up something about sending to the ML before the meeting, etc.
<ScottK> persia: Yes.
<ScottK> I'm unlikely to be at the next meeting however.
<persia> siretart: MOTU Meeting.  I want to try to transition within the existing rules, rather than change because MC said so without discussion.
<ScottK> Actually me proposing it and then not being here for the decisioncould be considered a feature.
<siretart> persia: yes, we should at least try that. However I don't have high expectations in that to succeed
<persia> ScottK: OK.  I'll try based on your rough description above then.  Please update once it hits the agenda.
<ScottK> OK.
<persia> siretart: Understood.  MC will take it if the next meeting can't decide, but I don't want to grant all such decisions to MC unless we really can't do it as MOTU.
<ScottK> persia: It's the IETF consensus process in a nutshell.
 * persia has another meeting starting, so will be distracted, but will try to check backscroll frequently
 * siretart need to go afk as well
 * ScottK too.
<persia> Right then.  We'll call it done, and maybe discuss in #ubuntu-motu before the next meeting
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu-ni Translation Sprint | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<HardDisk> how does one apply on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA ?
<RainCT> HardDisk: Add yourself on the wiki page and come to the next meeting
<RainCT> (and of course prepare your wiki page, ask your "fan club" to come to the meeting and all that stuff)
<HardDisk> ah edit itself, ok I got you.
<HardDisk> :)
<HardDisk> hopefully current members will be able to attend, my timezone is very different to them
<HardDisk> as I am in Egypt and they're in the US/Canada
<HardDisk> thanks btw.
<RainCT> HardDisk: well, if they can't a testimonial on your wiki should do (although it's not that impresive :))
<RainCT> your welcome
<HardDisk> I understand.
<HardDisk> I will try.
<RainCT> good luck
<persia> HardDisk: Note that you don't have to attend the meeting in your region, if another region is more convenient time-wise for you and your sponsors.
<persia> The idea is to have meetings at different times of day, which roughly maps to location, but variance is fine.
<HardDisk> okie dokie :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-14
<Corkster> okay when do we start talking nice about the nominees :)
<bimberi> At the meeting or on their wikipage :)
<Corkster> is that the same place where we post the compromising pictures ?
<HardDisk> Corkey :)
<HardDisk> I need your support man not to have me banned
<HardDisk> on the 17th
<HardDisk> Corkster, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=6&day=17&year=2008&hour=18&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
<Corkster> heh
<Corkster> so i guess ill loose the tomatoe and pink nighty pictures
<HardDisk> this room is where all the official big guys come here to meet
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jun 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<HardDisk> thank you elkbuntu
<HardDisk> appreciate it very much
<elkbuntu> no problem
<HardDisk> and don't worry I don't abuse these things, I've been op before on other networks
<HardDisk> I'm a very tolerant person
<elkbuntu> just make sure you make #ubuntu-eg rock :)
<HardDisk> promise
<HardDisk> shukran!
<HardDisk> haha
<elkbuntu> :)
<HardDisk> btw this means I can also be part of #ubuntu-ops correct? learn some things from the experienced ubuntu ops
<HardDisk> just to join, nothing more.
<elkbuntu> HardDisk, #ubuntu-irc is best. #ubuntu-ops is mainly for the main channels. it's too much to deal with all channels there
<HardDisk> ok, I wasn't going to talk much anyway :) just mostly idle and get some pointers, but if this is better, that's fine.
<elkbuntu> things can get pretty messy when we get hit by botnets and naughty people
<HardDisk> understood.
<elkbuntu> you're actually in #ubuntu-meeting at the moment, so lets move to #ubuntu-irc now :)
<HardDisk> oops
<HardDisk> didn't notice!
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-15
<Zic> !deowner
<ubottu> Factoid deowner not found
<Zic> !deop
<ubottu> Factoid deop not found
<Zic> DÃ©solÃ© erreur d'amsg multiserveur / Error of /amsg command on multiserver, sorry
<udienz-> @now Jakarta
<ubottu> udienz-: Current time in Asia/Jakarta: June 15 2008, 20:38:17 - Next meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day in 22 hours 21 minutes
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-09
<BslBryan> Hello, everyone.
<bittin`> Hello
<VK7HSE-Eee> G'day...
<BslBryan> I hope everyone's doing all right this 10:00 UTC.
 * persia peers about
<czajkowski> persia: morning
<persia> czajkowski, Good evening
<persia> elky, lifeless, TheMuso: All about?
<elky> yep
<TheMuso> persia: Since I just joined the channel, and since I am never in here when I don't have to be...
<lifeless> hai
<lifeless> persia: lifeless: will highlight for me. lifeless, won't.
<elky> lifeless, o hai thar
<persia> Excellent.  That provides not only clear quorum, but record of quirum.
<lifeless> I hear there is a meeting robot here.
<persia> lifeless, nifty.  Is that specifically to get around the limits of my IRC client :)
<persia> Who wants to chair, as amachu can't make it?
<lifeless> persia does
<persia> #startmeeting
<lifeless> persia: its so that regular use of lifeless doesn't hightlight.
<TheMuso> I would if I didn't have my head full of stuff that I need to dump to a file after the meeting.
 * persia thinks there isn't a meeting robot around
<persia> Anyway: agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<TheMuso> Only one person to review.
<persia> First up: Bryan Basil
<elky> yay, quick meeting
<persia> BslBryan, Could you introduce yourself?
 * persia sees two applicants
<elky> that's still quick meeting. yay
<BslBryan> Hello, everyone.  :-)  My name is Bryan Basil, and I believe that the best page to introduce me is my wiki page.
<BslBryan> wiki.ubuntu.com/BslBryan
<BslBryan> It details much of the contributions I have made to the Ubuntu community
<BslBryan> as well as linking to all of them.
<BslBryan> ...Or most of them anyway. :P
<BslBryan> I have been left testimonials by ubuntu forums staff, as well as the LoCo president for US-GA.
<BslBryan> And other people who have felt the need to leave a message.
<BslBryan> I have really only been active online for a couple of months,
<BslBryan> but my contributions thus far speak louder than words,
<BslBryan> so, please, click around. :-)
<TheMuso> BslBryan: Is there anybody here to speak about your work in the community/cheer lead for you? :)
<BslBryan> Unfortunately, since it is 6 AM on a Tuesday here that no one could make it.
<persia> BslBryan, What brings you to this board?  It must be an awkward hour for you there.
<BslBryan> :-(
<BslBryan> I saw that the American board had many applicants,
<BslBryan> and still a meeting was TBD.
<BslBryan> I figured it would be easier for all ubuntu members
<BslBryan> if I just made a meeting a little shorter
<BslBryan> while making one a little longer.
<BslBryan> If it would make things easier,
<TheMuso> Thats dedication for ya. :)
<BslBryan> Haha.
<BslBryan> Thanks. :-)
<persia> BslBryan, Can you talk in a bit more detail about your work with the Marketing team?
<BslBryan> Sure.
<BslBryan> I would like to first say that the reason that I did not speak much about it in my wiki page is because I am afraid that, to the community, my contributions in that team are all ideas.
<BslBryan> I have, of course, spoken about Ubuntu to friends to switch them, but that team is more than that.
<BslBryan> My work in the marketing team will concentrate entirely on advocacy to new users.
<BslBryan> And, as I mention in my plans for the future,
<BslBryan> I will most likely speak to the IT department at University
<elky> so you've contributed these ideas somewhere like irc or mailing list?
<BslBryan> to make Linux more widely used.
<BslBryan> This is correct.
<BslBryan> I also plan on starting a university Ubuntu team,
<BslBryan> seeing as several people on campus do use Ubuntu.
<BslBryan> I would like to add, though, that I have not posted anything to their mailing list.
<BslBryan> Ideas are just ideas, and I wanted to go
<BslBryan> a little bit further with my plans to implement them before throwing them around to anyone else.
<BslBryan> Soon, however.
<elky> BslBryan, i'm confused. have you contributed to the marketing team, or just joined the team on launchpad?
<BslBryan> elky, I certainly have contributed to it,
<BslBryan> but not directly.
<BslBryan> I'm sure that sounds bad,
<elky> what did you contribute?
<BslBryan> but let me explain.
<BslBryan> I joined the Ubuntu marketing team because it explains what I have already done
<BslBryan> for Ubuntu
<BslBryan> as well as what I will do.
<BslBryan> Considering I am a public speaker,
<BslBryan> and a visual artist,
<BslBryan> I found that many of the activities
<BslBryan> done in the team is what I do today.
<BslBryan> All I have yet to do is show my ideas to the team.
<BslBryan> As well as repeat things I have already done.
<BslBryan> Since that is sort of lame... :P
<BslBryan> Or, sounding anyway,
<BslBryan> I did not mention it much in my wiki.
<BslBryan> I wanted to wait,
<BslBryan> until my contribution to that team
<BslBryan> was a little more pronounced.
<BslBryan> But I truly believe that I am a member
<BslBryan> of that team.
<persia> BslBryan, Just to make sure, Your current and planned future activities are part of the scope of the Marketing team, and you are a member of that team, but you have yet to do much interaction with other members of that team?
<lifeless> Who of the people testifiying are members, do we know?
<persia> Only Hellow
<BslBryan> persie, yes.
<BslBryan> persia,
<persia> (or at least as far as I could tell from hunting)
<BslBryan> Jon Reagan
<BslBryan> is up for
<BslBryan> membership at the America meeting, but he
<BslBryan> is the US-Georgia LoCo president,
<BslBryan> and has been for 2 years (I believe.)
<BslBryan> Also, wieman is ubuntu forums staff.
<BslBryan> And Therion has made substantial contributions in the area
<BslBryan> of support.
<TheMuso> /c/c
<BslBryan> I am certain he has a better chance of membership
<BslBryan> than I do.
<elky> i'm not convinced. 0 from me.
<BslBryan> elky,
<BslBryan> may I say something?
<BslBryan> wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<BslBryan> Membership of the Ubuntu community means recognition of a significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community. Contributions in all areas are welcome, from support to advocacy, from programming to artwork and documentation, from LoCoTeams activities to core packaging.
<BslBryan> Also, read the requirements.
<elky> yes, and i'm not convinced that your contribution is significant.
<BslBryan> I trust your decision, but
<BslBryan> have you seen my artwork?
<BslBryan> My tutorials?
<BslBryan> Read the one on merging partitions.
<BslBryan> It took me hours.
<BslBryan> I have 7000 in karma
<BslBryan> from launchpad
<BslBryan> from Spanish translations
<BslBryan> and questions.
<BslBryan> I have only been active for a little over 2 months
<BslBryan> (which is the requirement)
<BslBryan> and I believe I have
<BslBryan> really done a lot for that time.
<BslBryan> I have dedicated so much time and effort to Ubuntu.
<BslBryan> And I promise that will not stop.
<persia> BslBryan, It's best not to argue the decisions of board members: you may end up hardening opinions.
<BslBryan> Ah, sorry, that. :-)
<persia> BslBryan, In the worst case, if you're not approved today, you'll be asked to come back in a few weeks.
<BslBryan> Okay. :-)  I am still hoping, however.
<persia> BslBryan, So, you've written a bunch of HowTos.  Have you thought about joining the documentation team?
<BslBryan> Hmm.  Perhaps.  I suppose I haven't thought about it much.
<BslBryan> May I move this topic to my artwork temporarily?
<BslBryan> http://porfolio-bslbryan.webs.com/
<lifeless> I'm +0.5 because: you've been very active. Very! And this has a tendency to be a flare kindof thing.
<persia> I'm on the fence, and give +0.5.  Work on answers and in the beginner forums is *great*.  Partitipation with the art team is to be commended.  With a couple more member testimonials, some live fans, or documented work with the doc team or marketing team, I'd be +1.
<lifeless> you're doing great things. I'd like to see more follow through on teamwork with docs or marketing.
<BslBryan> Thanks, persia. :-)
<BslBryan> Lifeless. :-)
<TheMuso> I am +0.5 as well. I feel you are spreading yourself a bit too thin. I think you should focus on one area and push hard to do lots of work in that area.
<TheMuso> You will feel better knowing you are giving your best to your favourite part of the Ubuntu community.
<BslBryan> You're probably right.
<BslBryan> Thanks, everyone. :-)
<BslBryan> TheMuso, would you suggest leaving my name on the American board?
<persia> BslBryan, You're doing great, but probably just need a bit more time and coordination.  When you feel you've addressed the comments above, please apply again to any of the RMBs, and I'm sure you'll be approved.
<BslBryan> Do you believe, personally, that I would be ready
<BslBryan> by that time?
<lifeless> by what time
<BslBryan> That's the point.  The next meeting is still
<TheMuso> BslBryan: I can't really answer that, since it  comes down to when you can make their meetings. They may also look to see what our vote was, and decide based on that.
<BslBryan> TBD
<lifeless>  you said the us tz board meeting was TBD
<BslBryan> so, it would probably be at least another couple of weeks.
 * persia thinks it's better to take one's name down, and put it back up later, as the board will see this as active management of membership intention, rather than apathy.
<BslBryan> Nice status, persia. :-)
<BslBryan> Okay, then. Will do.
<persia> BslBryan, But don't expect a different set of questions or concerns from a different board.  We all read each other's meeting logs.
<BslBryan> No, of course.
<persia> Next up is Scott Evans
<persia> VK7HSE-Eee, Could you introduce yourself (again).
<VK7HSE-Eee> Hi, my name is Scott Evans, I first applied for Ubuntu Membership three months ago but I didn't have sufficient credentials to meet the requirements, I'm hoping that I do now, I'm actively involved as a moderator for the Ubuntu-au Mailing list. I've just recently introduced two friends to ubuntu although this is only a small contribution, I believe it is a start! If we all managed just one person each think of the
<VK7HSE-Eee> did all that text go through?
<Hobbsee> each think of the
<Hobbsee> hm, purple cuts off text.
<VK7HSE-Eee> where did it get cut off?
<TheMuso> Hobbsee: same cut off here.
<VK7HSE-Eee>  sorry for this
<Hobbsee> "each think of the" was the last text seen
<VK7HSE-Eee> I believe it is a start! If we all managed just one person each think of the numbers! I only have a small circle of friends and I have mention Ubuntu to those that I feel would either be interested or keen to give something new to try... (sorry the cat is of my lap! sorry if typing is slow)
<ToyKeeper> ... IRC has a maximum line length of about 400 letters.
<VK7HSE-Eee> wish pidgin recognised that I'm sorry...
<ToyKeeper> Sorry to interrupt.  :)
<lifeless> persia: we do?
<persia> lifeless, At least someone from each board admitted to doing so at the RMB review two weeks back.
<VK7HSE-Eee> I have plenty of time that I can dedicate  to the ubuntu-au loco as I'm currently not working (due to past illness)
<TheMuso> I can't remember what your wiki page looked like last time, but I don't see any testimonials.
<lifeless> hmm, I should probably join the ubuntu-au list
<TheMuso> VK7HSE-Eee: Have you done any packaging work with the MOTU community yet?
<VK7HSE-Eee> I have yet to find someone to speak on my behalf...
<lifeless> how busy is the list/
<VK7HSE-Eee> not yey no.. only or theMe TV project...
<lifeless> you say you moderate it - is that 10s/100s/.../ of mails a day that need your time?
<VK7HSE-Eee> the ubuntu-au list see's more spam than active users, but
<VK7HSE-Eee> plus I'm not the sole moderator,
<VK7HSE-Eee> but as I'm regularly close to the PC I respond to the requests quickly....
<lifeless> you've been doing this solidly for three months?
<VK7HSE-Eee> I realise that I may be recommended to pursue MOTU, but I've not made a firm decision on that just yet...
<VK7HSE-Eee> yes, since I was approved by elky
<lifeless> so, I'm +0.5. Sustained contribution, but not significant.
<VK7HSE-Eee> which was late march from memory.
<TheMuso> Agreed with lifeless, +0.5
<VK7HSE-Eee> well that better than my last application!
<VK7HSE-Eee> ;)
<persia> I'm +0 still, but for the same reasons (not significant yet).
<lifeless> VK7HSE-Eee: I suggest either diving deep into community or into tech
<elky> i'm +0 too. i'm not seeing a significant change from last time.
<persia> You can dive deeper into both, but it will take longer.
<VK7HSE-Eee> Ok well I thank you all for your time... I'll re asses and reconsider future applications...
<lifeless> VK7HSE-Eee: to be blunt, 16 bug reports touched, moderating a single list and getting two people involved is not that significant.
<VK7HSE-Eee> lifeless: That's one POV from many... ;)
<elky> VK7HSE-Eee, come and see me before you put your name down next time, please.
<VK7HSE-Eee> elky: ok...
<persia> VK7HSE-Eee, We truly would like to see you on the team, we just need more stuff.  Since your last application you've taken on moderation of a mailing list, and expanded your beta testing a bit.  That gets you from consensus -1 to consensus +0.25.  You just have a bit farther to go.
<VK7HSE-Eee> persia: that's fine, this for me is part of the experience, to learn and evolve...
<lifeless> VK7HSE-Eee: We look for 2 key things: doing stuff long term, and doing 'significant' contributions, which is admittedly vague. And yes, my POV is one of many...
<lifeless> VK7HSE-Eee: but 'many' in this case is '4'.
<lifeless> VK7HSE-Eee: Like persia, I'd like to see you graduate to full member.
<VK7HSE-Eee> well that's concluded... once again I thank you for your time...
<persia> VK7HSE-Eee, Good luck with your progress.  We'll see you back (after checking with elky) in September or so.
<VK7HSE-Eee> ok...
<persia> And that concludes our listed agenda items.
<persia> Anyone have anything else to raise?
<lifeless> nothing specific
<TheMuso> no]
<persia> elky, TheMuso If you have time to respond to the outstanding ML thread regarding the nomination, that would be great.
<TheMuso> I'll see what I can do about that either later tonight or tomorrow.
<persia> Alright then.  Meeting adjourned
<persia> #endmeeting
<JosephWHolmes> I'm here to support BslBryan.
<BslBryan> You're a little late. :-)
<JosephWHolmes> What? Why?
<soren> 10:54:26 < persia> Alright then.  Meeting adjourned
<soren> 10:54:29 < persia> #endmeeting
<BslBryan> The meeting was an hour ago, and recently adjourned, as you see.
<persia> Well, and that BslBryan was first on the agenda.
<JosephWHolmes> I'm sorry Bryan...
<BslBryan> Haha, no worries. :-)  Next time.
<zul> hello
<ttx> \o
<nijaba> o/
<sommer> yo
<alex_muntada> o/
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<mathiaz> good day folks!
<mathiaz> let's get the server team meeting started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<soren> o/
<kirkland> o/
<mathiaz> Today's crazy agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> What happened last week?? -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090602
<mathiaz> ttx: thanks for running the meeting last week
<ttx> mathiaz: my pleasure
<mathiaz> ttx: and preparing the minutes
<mathiaz> Any actions from last week meeting?
<mathiaz> I don't see any on the wiki page
<pace_t_zulu> did i miss the bugsquad meeting?
<ttx> mathiaz: did you review new members applications, if any ?
<ttx> that was an hidden implied action :)
<mathiaz> pace_t_zulu: it's in one hour according to http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<alex_muntada> ttx: sure he did, i'm in :-)
<mathiaz> ttx: new members application for the server team in LP?
<ttx> alex_muntada: heh, welcome :)
<ttx> mathiaz: yes
<mathiaz> ttx: yes - I went through most of the applicate yesterday
<mathiaz> *application*
<pace_t_zulu> mathiaz: thanks... i need to figure out UTC ;)
<mathiaz> As of today there are 173 members of the ubuntu-server team in LP
<mathiaz> pace_t_zulu: date -u will always give the UTC time
<mathiaz> Anything else from last week meeting?
<ttx> mathiaz: nothing from me
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
<mathiaz> so the development team is focusing on merging packages from debian
<mathiaz> There are 104 outstanding merges in main
<mathiaz> (https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html)
<mathiaz> and 196 outstanding merges in universe
<mathiaz> (https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html)
<mathiaz> For those of you that are interested in packageing and already have a bit of knowledge of packaging pick one package out of the list and work on a merge
<mathiaz> once you've got something file a bug in LP and ask for sponsorship
<mathiaz> I'll publish another list of packages that look easy to merge
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to update the list of easy-merges for the Server team
<mathiaz> If you have any questions about the merge process or packaging in general, stop by #ubuntu-motu or #ubuntu-devel
<mathiaz> Any questions about Merges?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, related to that, would you be able to sponsor openvpn please? bug #372358
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 372358 in openvpn "Please merge openvpn 2.1~rc15-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/372358
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: It's on my TODO list - I'll have a look at it
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, cool thank you :)
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: sorry for not processing earlier - I was busy with UDS
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, np :)
<alex_muntada> mathiaz: i'll pick one from the list once it's been updated, it'll be my first merge
<mathiaz> alex_muntada: great - I'll publish it in the Roadmap wiki page
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<alex_muntada> yeah, I'm already subscribed ;-)
<mathiaz> If there isn't anything else related to Merges, let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Karmic Alpha2
<pace_t_zulu> is there a city that is always in UTC?
<mathiaz> pace_t_zulu: no
<mathiaz> So we're gearing up for the next milestone release
<mathiaz> alpha2 is scheduled for Thursday
<mathiaz> The archive is still soft-frozen until then
<mathiaz> so hold on to your upload unless they fix a blocker for alpha2
<mathiaz> That also means iso testing will be required in the coming days
<mathiaz> as we're responsible for testing the ubuntu-server iso
<mathiaz> iso candidates will be posted to http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ once ready
<mathiaz> so if you wanna help out testing the isos, subscribe to the Server amd64 and i386 test cases
<mathiaz> and you'll get automatically notified when new candidates are available for testing
<soren> pace_t_zulu: Reykjavik, Iceland.
<mathiaz> stop by #ubuntu-testing to follow what's going on
<mathiaz> Testcases for ubuntu-server isos are described on the testcase wiki:
<mathiaz> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/ServerWhole
<mathiaz> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/
<mathiaz> Any help in conducting the test cases and reporting results to the Iso tracker is welcome
<mathiaz> Any questions wrt to Alpha2 and/or the iso testing process?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Drafting specifications
<mathiaz> According to the KarmicReleaseSchedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule
<mathiaz> Specifications should be finalized this week in time for FeatureDefinitionFreeze
<mathiaz> So how is everyone doing wrt to their specification draft?
<sommer> :-)... but mines pretty easy
<ttx> mathiaz: it will be a busy week :)
<mathiaz> I've started to write down notes on the session I lead at UDS
 * soren is doing ok
<soren> Thanks for asking :)
<mathiaz> sommer: Thanks for taking notes - they're precious while writting down things
<ttx> soren: that's because you're a born drafter.
<sommer> mathiaz: np
<soren> ttx: HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH!
<soren> ttx: Good one. I get it :)
<mathiaz> I've already written down some draft for the directory related sessions:
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkDirectoryArchitecture
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkDirectoryUserLogin
<mathiaz> Although they're not in a final state yet, feedback/comments on them is welcome :)
<mathiaz> Any questions on the specification draft process?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<mathiaz> anyone?
<ttx> mathiaz: is it where we discuss the "New members integration" topic ?
<mathiaz> ttx: sure
<mathiaz> ttx: open discussion is when there is nothing left on the agenda or on my topic to discuss list
<ttx> mathiaz: well, that topic was on the agenda ;)
<mathiaz> ttx: hm - you are right
<ttx> Last week we had so many new heads around, I thought there was a need to explain the different areas of contribution
<mathiaz> I missread the Agenda
<ttx> so taht newcomers could tell us where they think they would best fit
<mathiaz> ttx: good idea
<ttx> mathiaz: could you detail the different types of server team actions ?
<ttx> or should I ?
<mathiaz> the GettingInvolved page has a list of different roles:
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<mathiaz> Help on the mailing list and the IRC channel
<mathiaz> The helpers answers questions on the ubuntu-server mailing list, the #ubuntu-server irc channel and the server forums.
<mathiaz> Triagers dig into bugs the ubuntu-server LP team is subscribed to.
<mathiaz> Our LP team is a bug contact for a list packages, such as samba, openldap, mysql or apache2.
<mathiaz> he current list of packages can be found in Launchpad (https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+packagebugs) and is growing every release.
<ttx> hm, we lost like 75% of our new heads in one week :)
<alex_muntada> :-D
<mathiaz> Once bugs have been triaged, it's time to fix them. This is when the packagers come into the game.
<mathiaz> This role requires an interest in packaging.
<mathiaz> We maintain a list of bugs that are easy to fix: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+mentoring
<mathiaz> Fixes can make their way into the ubuntu repositories via the sponsorship process as described in the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<mathiaz> Doing work on the packaging front leads to a close a collaboration with the MOTU team and is a great way to gain experience to become a MOTU - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<mathiaz> Testing is another way to take part of the Server Team activity. This role doesn't require a lot of deep technical knowledge.
<mathiaz> Browsing the ubuntu-server mailing list archive, lurking in the #ubuntu-server irc channel or going through the forum posts shows patterns in user's questions.
<mathiaz> Recurring themes are identified and turned into documentation. A wiki page in the community section of help.ubuntu.com is first created. Once the quality has improved, a new section is added to the server guide.
<mathiaz> All this work is undertaken by the Documentors of the Server Team.
<mathiaz> Adam Sommer (sommer) leads the update and review of the Ubuntu Server guide. The source document is maintained in a bzr tree. Helping Adam will introduce you to docbook and distributed versioning with bazaar.
 * sommer \o/
<mathiaz> So these are the different roles one can take to get started with the Server team
<mathiaz> support, bug triage, packaging, documentation
<mathiaz> there are other ways to get involved but these are the main ones.
<mathiaz> Most of the information related to the ServerTeam can be found in the ServerTeam wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam.
<mathiaz> If you're overwhelmed by all the available information and you're lost, come talk to me. You can find me in #ubuntu-server amongst other channels. I'll help get out of the mist and we'll find a way you can get involved in the Server Team.
<mathiaz> Any questions?
<ttx> alex_muntada: is it clear ? do you see where you would best fit ?
<alex_muntada> ttx: I think I'll start with a bit of support, triaging and testing maybe packaging and documenting a bit later
<ttx> alex_muntada: sounds great !
<mathiaz> great
<alex_muntada> there's a lot of stuff to learn, I'll start slowly ;-)
<mathiaz> any other questions?
<RoAkSoAx> I do have something to report: Regarding to the Ubuntu-HA team... Debian has already Heartbeat 2.99.3 in experimental. That is one of the packages we want in Ubuntu, along with pacemaker and openais. However it is not a good idea to sync it from Debian yet, right?  I've uploaded it to my PPA though, so that I can start doing some testing.
<mathiaz> be it related to getting started or anything else *somehow* related to the Server team
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: which version is in unstable for now?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, same as the one in Ubuntu 2.1.4
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: why the version in experimental should be pulled in instead of unstable?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, Heartbeat from 2.99.x and up now uses Pacemaker as the Cluster Resource Manager
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: is 2.99 stable according to upstream?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, and it's recommended by upstream to use Pacemaker from now on
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: or is it just a beta that in time will become 3.0 (as the versionning seems to suggest)
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: ?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, yes it will become 3.0
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: so would you use 2.99 in a production environment?
<RoAkSoAx> in the talk I had with horms, he pretty much told me that those packages where going to debian experimental for final testing.. and if they passed the tests, they were going to sid as stable
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, they have also settled a debian-ha team to handle this packages
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: horms is the debian maintainer?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, yes
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: what's the timeline for getting 2.99 in unstable?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, I actually don't know yet. I'll talk to him about that... though he told me it was a big transition getting the code out of heartbeat and leave it in Pacemaker
<RoAkSoAx> so they were requiring testing
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: ok - it seems that the version in ubuntu doesn't have any change
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: so if hearbeat hits unstable, it will be pulled in ubuntu automatically before DebianImportFreeze
<mathiaz> (which happens end of June)
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, stable debian version and ubuntu version are the same. the Cluster Resource Manager code has been removed from Heartbeat since 2.99.x , and it now uses Pacemaker as the CRM
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: right
<mathiaz> So it seems that testing is what's required for now
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, yes, and that's on my ToDo list :)
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: Have you uploaded the experimental package to a PPA?
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, yes it is on my PPA: https://launchpad.net/~andreserl/+archive/ppa I'll start testing and provide a testing case and then call for help
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: seems like a good plan to me
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: using the ubuntu-ha team to call for testing and a blog post
<RoAkSoAx> indeed
<mathiaz> allright anything else before we wrap up?
<RoAkSoAx> not from me
<mathiaz> [ACTION] RoAkSoAx to write a test case for heartbeat
<mathiaz> [ACTION] RoAkSoAx to write a blog post for a call for testing heartbeat 2.99 from a PPA
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] # Agree on next meeting date and time.
<mathiaz> Next week, same place, same time?
<sommer> sure
<mathiaz> all right then
<mathiaz> see you all next week, same place, same time
<mathiaz> happy iso testing
<mathiaz> and merges
<mathiaz> ... and specs...
<mathiaz> see you all around
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<sommer> coolio, thanks mathiaz
<andresmujica> hey ya!
<thekorn> hi
<bcurtiswx-mini> so, who runs these meetings? :P
<andresmujica> last time was me!
 * bcurtiswx-mini sits down then
<andresmujica> so if anyone steps up, i can try it for the second time
<BUGabundo> hey everyone.
 * BUGabundo waves
<andresmujica> o/
<bdmurray> Hi
<bcurtiswx-mini> \o/ whats that supposed to be
<andresmujica> ok, let's start this
<BUGabundo> 1st time on this meeting so be gentle. thanks
<andresmujica> (i supposed me waving :)
<bcurtiswx-mini> i got yelled at when i wasn't here last time :P
<andresmujica> #startmeeting
 * charlie-tca waves
<pedro_> heya
<pace_t_zulu> o/
<andresmujica> holly gosh, shouldn't the bot respond to startmeeting?
<bcurtiswx-mini> idk, didn't for the server meeting
<bcurtiswx-mini> <shrugs>
<pace_t_zulu> mootbot is MIA
<andresmujica> ok.
<charlie-tca> it should, but maybe it is broke again
<andresmujica> ok, np. So this is our second meeting, and the proposed topic is at
<andresmujica> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting
<andresmujica> and the last minutes from the previous meeting are at
<andresmujica> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting/Minutes/2009-12-05
<andresmujica> first my apologies for emailing too late the reminder to the ML.. it didn{ t make it into the the newsletter, but anyway we're here so let's start
<andresmujica> [TOPIC] UDS BugSquad related topics -- BugSquad UDS atteendes
<andresmujica> anyone of the attendes want to share some of the highlits from UDS related to bugsquad?
 * bcurtiswx-mini pokes maco
<bcurtiswx-mini> well i know maco went to UDS.. but i think shes @ work
<BUGabundo> or school
<BUGabundo> anyone else?
<bdmurray> There were quite a few things I found interesting
<bdmurray> making the greasemonkey triaging scripts into extensions and available in a PPA
<bdmurray> a Bug Squad mentoring program
<bdmurray> an Ubuntu Reviewers team for patches attached to bug reports
<bdmurray> and some discussions about how to write apport package hooks and what packages to target
<bcurtiswx-mini> to the Bug Squad mentoring program... i think we mentor each other in the bugs channel pretty well
<bcurtiswx-mini> how would a mentoring program be different?
<bdmurray> We talked about making it a bit more structured to make it easier for people to find a mentor and to help people are who are shy.
<andresmujica> bdmurray: this is the spec right? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/SpecialisationWithinBugcontrol
<bdmurray> andresmujica: that's right
<bdmurray> pedro_: anything more to add on that?
<bcurtiswx-mini> i like the idea, i just ask a ton of questions :).  how can i help build the spec up.. i can come up with a few ideas
<pedro_> well what bdmurray said is mostly why we started to do the mentoring program
<pedro_> that's based on the experience of previous months/years
<pedro_> we clearly need a more defined and structured way to start helping new triagers who want to be involved in the bugsquad
<pedro_> doing triage, participating in our activities, meetings, decisions, etc
<bcurtiswx-mini> agreed
<bdmurray> bcurtiswx-mini: we are still drafting the spec at this point in time
<pedro_> the bugsquad is not just about doing triage and that's it, people need to get involved in the team as well
<bcurtiswx-mini> bdmurray: understood, i would love to help build this "program" up
<andresmujica> i' ve got a doubt about bugsquad membership, it would be open for everyone or it was decided to ask for some prereq ?
<bdmurray> bcurtiswx-mini: great! feel free to add any thoughts to the end of the Discussion section of the spec
<pedro_> andresmujica: IIRC we agreed on having it now as a close team and the requirements for join there would be: sign the coc and read the how to triage guide
<bdmurray> I think we should talk about that a wee bit more, the 1st item is easy to verify the second hard.
<bcurtiswx-mini> similar to bug control... they e-mail the list answering pre-made questions about the triage guide ?
<andresmujica> yeap, maybe some questions as bug-control application
<pedro_> right, maybe we could ask a few easy questions related to that guide
<charlie-tca> At least that would let them know the guides exist.
<bdmurray> I think that would add a lot overhead and might lean the other way
<bdmurray> verify coc is signed, approve and in approval notification send links to triaging documentation and mentoring program
<bcurtiswx-mini> bdmurray: ok, what about a "trial" period, like bug control
<bcurtiswx-mini> after 90 days ping a bug squad admin to update the membership
<bdmurray> sounds good to me
<andresmujica> and check bugs triaged in that period
<bdmurray> I think that'd be part of the mentoring program
<andresmujica> should a new member must have a mentor?
<bdmurray> No, I don't think so
<bcurtiswx-mini> so , by request, a mentor?
<bdmurray> If I understand correctly - new members could request a mentor yes
<bdmurray> But it would not be required
<bcurtiswx-mini> i think it may be help to have bug squad newbies build up their wiki pages and review that upon 90 days are up
<bcurtiswx-mini> put a couple triaged bugs in there?
<charlie-tca> We make them do that to join bug-control, I would think to stay in bug-squad it should not be the same.
<bdmurray> Reviewing the bug control applications takes a lot of time, but maybe we can make a streamlined simplified process for the Bug Squad
<bdmurray> charlie-tca: I agree
<andresmujica> the point is that bugsquad needs a lot of members that can do a good triage work, so with mentoring and some commitment to be members they can grow and get more involvement.
<bdmurray> Anyway, we can discuss this more in the spec / on the mailing list
<andresmujica> yeap.
<hggdh> perhaps one way is to have mentors assigned to newbies
<hggdh> b.g.o does something similar, at least with evo
<andresmujica> there were some more topics at uds that worth mentioning,  kernel bug handling, Desktop Bug workflow and Symptom based bug reporting
<micahg> I think mentoring helped me get acclimated faster
<andresmujica> as the mentoring program is so new and it's a volunteer work, i believe we can let it move and it would reacht the point were new members can be assigned to a mentor..
<andresmujica> if needed..
<bdmurray> Right, I've some concern about the quantity of mentees versus mentors
<bcurtiswx-mini> ask for volunteers in the two ML's ?  its going to be difficult to coordinate best times to meet too.. since were from all around the world
<bcurtiswx-mini> i'd recommend assigning people from the same time zones.. or close time zones
<pedro_> bcurtiswx-mini: that's the idea, yes
<hggdh> the issue is mentoring is a voluntary action, right now. We, er, mentor by answering questions on IRC. Perhaps stress IRC presence?
<andresmujica> ok, as the time moves, i'd propose to discuss that remaining points in the ML, and as the spec is being drafted it surely can be greatly improved.
<pace_t_zulu> hggdh: +1
<andresmujica> about the kernel bug handling, i believe it's important to note that a bug bankrupcy was discussed, as the high volume of kernel bugs (around 5000) is really hard to manage, and is not feasible to triage them all and solved
<BUGabundo> 5k?
<andresmujica> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/specs/KernelKarmicBugHandling
<micahg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux
<BUGabundo> that's what the kernel team gets for prefering to have all kernel bug filed in separate
<andresmujica> so the kernel team is discussing what should be the best path of action...
<micahg> well, I"m sure that at least 20% are from old kernels if not more
<andresmujica> yeap,
<hggdh> so. What can we do about that?
<micahg> I would suggest getting rid of any bug not touched before hardy was released
<bcurtiswx-mini> kernel hug day?
<micahg> just mark invalid
<andresmujica> probably be aware of the issue and check the kernel bug policies page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies
<micahg> in case someone has a real issue, they can reopend
<bdmurray> I'd rather people focus on kernel bugs coming in today, tomorrow, the next day, rather than the old crufty stuff
<charlie-tca> micahg: what would you do with dapper, which is still supported on servers for two years?
<pedro_> bcurtiswx-mini: the team is organizing kernel hug  days almost every Tuesday since a few weeks ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/BugDay
<micahg> charlie-tca: it doesn't even show up in the versions provided
<pedro_> in fact there's one today
<charlie-tca> That makes it more wrong, then
<bcurtiswx-mini> pedro_: maybe have them announced on the bug squad list?
<andresmujica> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090609.html
<bdmurray> charlie-tca: the dapper bugs are reported about linux-source-2.6.15
<ogasawara> unless a dapper bug is an omg kittens are dieing or a security fix it's likely Won't Fix
<charlie-tca> bdmurray: my point was you can't just invalid a bug because it is before hardy. It could be valid against dapper
<ogasawara> and the kernel bug day announcement was sent to ubuntu-qa, ubuntu-bugcontrol, kernel-team, and ubuntu-bugsquad
<hggdh> ogasawara, then we *could* close these as wont fix, correct?
<ogasawara> hggdh: in my opinion, yes
<hggdh> OK. Anyone against?
<charlie-tca> thanks for clearing that, ogasawara
<bdmurray> Again I think closing old bugs is less useful than triaging new bugs
<andresmujica> some magic script can do it instead of us..
<ogasawara> as for closing old stale kernel bugs, I've got some scripts I'm going to run to clear them out
<hggdh> bdmurray, I agree, but there's still the reporter needing some sort of ACK
<BUGabundo> hggdh: just one Q: how about those that remain past the old release, and are not identified as such ?
<micahg> bdmurray: I agree also, but it can be mentally disheartening to see such a large number of bugs in a package and never seem to make decent headway
<hggdh> BUGabundo, this is actually a question of quantity vs quality. There is only so much we can do
<BUGabundo> I know
<bdmurray> True but it'd be better for the release as a whole if we worked with the "live" bug reports and work on getting those fixed
<hggdh> and a nicely written automagic script can tell the reporter to reopen if needed
<BUGabundo> I guess the closing message could/will ask the subscribers to reopen if they persist
<micahg> indeed bdmurray, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that
<hggdh> +1. I understand ogasawara will run his magic on the old bugs
<micahg> btw, I just ran a search for dapper in the linux package and came up with 144 bugs
<hggdh> ogasawara, sorry. *her* magic.
<ogasawara> hggdh: :)
<ogasawara> for those interested in helping triage, I recently updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies
<micahg> OT - Just got a compliment on the apport-collect command from a user
<ogasawara> note the added importance of having bugs test with the mainline kernel build as well
<bcurtiswx-mini> ogasawara: is that in the "debugging proceedures" page?
<ogasawara> bcurtiswx-mini: I'll have to check.  if not I'll add it.
<bdmurray> The DebuggingProcedures page could use some reorganizing
<bcurtiswx-mini> yeah, and additions
<bdmurray> bcurtiswx-mini: additions as in links to existing pages or new pages added?
<andresmujica> another interesting discussion held at UDS was the Symptom Based Bug Reporting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/SymptomBasedBugReporting, that would be an extension to apport hooks that would try to get some common information about the issue by asking questions to the reporter... mr pitti is working on that ...
<bdmurray> andresmujica: he blogged about it today or yesterday
<bcurtiswx-mini> bdmurray: well, idk of all the wiki pages we have on debugging this and that.  but the list seems small from the different amount of packages we have.. so if i don't find a debugging page, i resort to finding basic triage info.. and i am afraid its not enough for devs and to mark as triaged
<bdmurray> oh, that was the interactive hook
<andresmujica> ohh, that's great!!    http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/interrogation-with-apport-hooks-qt-developer-needed/
<andresmujica> so, we've got 5 more minutes...
<bcurtiswx-mini> yay for going to the 2nd discussion topic :P, to which i have no info for anyways
<andresmujica> LP Improvements for triagers -- bcurtiswx
<andresmujica> hehe
<bcurtiswx-mini> that was more of a question, than a "i know this" thing
<bdmurray> bcurtiswx-mini: well, we did have a meeting with the launchpad bugs team at UDS
<andresmujica> there were some talks about it at UDS... duplicate bug handling, related bugs, what else?
<bdmurray> some of the things we talked about were negated tag searching, bug nominations
<bcurtiswx-mini> bdmurray: about that greasemonkey made FF extension.. sounds like a great idea
<bdmurray> searching for bugs with bzr branches, displaying patches in bug listings
<bcurtiswx-mini> what about running apport collect on all bugs reported against jaunty and karmic when reporters use the launchpad page to report
<bcurtiswx-mini> is that possible?
<hggdh> you mean forcing code on the local machine?
<bdmurray> Instead we are trying to get people to just report bugs via ubuntu-bug / Report a Problem
 * hggdh apriori is against
<bdmurray> Additionally with the symptom based bug reporting this will make much more sense
<bcurtiswx-mini> hggdh: not forcing, lol.. you'd ask first and get their permission through a form
<bdmurray> er, be much more beneficial
<andresmujica> ok, time is rover...
<hggdh> <sigh/>
<andresmujica> so, i' ll summarize to the mailing list..
<bcurtiswx-mini> well, bdmurray suggested using the ML more... maybe a good idea ;-) since we've got tons to talk about still
<andresmujica> yeap
<andresmujica> hope it was benefical to every one!
<andresmujica> thanks for the assistance
<andresmujica> #endmeeting
<apw> #startmeeting
<apw> Kernel Weekly Meeting
 * smb pops in
 * cking here
<apw> Agenda for this weeks meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<apw> roll call!
<charlie-tca> Thanks, andresmujica, for chairing again
 * jjohansen here
 * ogasawara waves
<apw> evening all
<apw> [TOPIC] Open Action -- apw,smb,ogasawara arrange phone discussions on the bugs list
<ogasawara> apw: done
<apw> we had a concall on this subject, we are going to leverage some helpers to drive triage
<smb> done \o/
<apw> and we have refocused the triage effort on getting the fixes from upstream to pushed
<apw> upstream in general
<apw> indeed :)
<apw> [TOPIC] Open Action -- smb review the policy docs w.r.t. SRU and ensure they match the updated reality
<smb> I updated the spec with my understanding of the agreed changes. If all agree I w
<smb> ould go forward and update the SRU on the wiki.
<apw> have you sent that out to the mailing list?  a reminder to read?
 * lieb here
<smb> Npe, but will do
<apw> [ACTION] smb to get feedback on the SRU updates
<apw> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<smb> Dapper  : same as last week
<smb> Hardy   : New kernel and LRM have been accepted into proposed. Currently
<smb>           checking the milestoned bugs for 8.04.3. Two of them need more
<smb>           work.
<smb> Intrepid: New kernel and LRM accepted into proposed. LBM was missed but
<smb>           uploaded today.
<smb> Jaunty  : Has been in -proposed for 7 days now. Possibly move that to updates
<smb>           to make way for the pending last stable update.
<apw> how long before jaunty moves do you think?
<apw> have we got a lot pending for jaunty after that batch?
<apw> is it slowing down there?
<smb> Yeah, I'll ask after the meeting
<smb> A bit with no more stable
<smb> But there are still a few on the mailing list i have to get to
<apw> i see we keep getting more regressions ... any feel for where they are coming from most, whcih series?
<apw> (i hate the number 18)
<smb> Probably just found under that pile
<ogasawara> smb: indeed.  likely recently tagged and fell on the radar.
<smb> And one by trying things on an UDS
<apw> we should probabally put together a breakdown of which releases are getting the regressions
<apw> if its jaunty mostly then i guess its as expected
<apw> [TOPIC] Karmic Status - Alpha-2 june 11th (apw)
<apw> karmic is at 2.6.30-rc8, the expected 2.6.30 release over the weekend did not materialise
<apw> given the dates we will keep 2.6.30-8.9 for the Alpha-2 release
<apw> starting to see the first regression-potential bugs and working those
<apw> [TOPIC] ARM Tree (bradf/amitk)
<apw> not sure if either of them are here.  the only thing of which i am aware
<amitk> brad is working on integrating patches for babbage 2
<apw> is that the arm support in karmic is still out of sync with jaunty
<amitk> apw: it is totally broken ATM
<apw> yeah it builds something, just no idea what
<amitk> brad is looking at bring the jaunty patches forward and then add the new ones
<apw> ack
<apw> anything else?
<amitk> thats about it
<apw> [TOPIC] LPIA Tree (sconklin)
<apw> not sure i've seen him today
<apw> put that on hold for this week
<apw> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs (oggasawara)
<sconklin> Nothing to report - been busy with a fire drill. I need to rebase hardy netbook-lpia on top of stefan's proposed.
<ogasawara> There were 2 regression-potential bugs for karmic and one regression-release bug for jaunty that I added to the buglist this week.
<ogasawara> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-buglist.html
<ogasawara> They've all been assigned to a kernel dev already.
<sconklin> or not.
<apw> sconklin, thanks
<apw> ogasawara, how is the bug day going
<ogasawara> today's bug day is looking good so far - http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090609.html
<ogasawara> I added delta's the the stats at the top so you can monitor progress.
<ogasawara> You've already closed over 30% of them.
<ogasawara> I also want to give a quick shout out to andresmujica who did a great job helping out the last kernel bugday and has again tackled a few from today's list.
<apw> \o/
<apw> thanks andresmujica for that!
<smb> +1
<amitk> +1
<cooloney> +1
<andresmujica> :) np glad to do it. learning a lot
<apw> we will make a community :)
<ogasawara> apw: that's it for now
<cooloney> i plan to do bug fixing tomorrow, since i spent a whole with customers
<apw> cooloney, no problem
<cooloney> today
<cooloney> apw, thanks
<apw> [TOPIC] UDS Deliverables
<apw> should we be starting to track the UDS blueprints in this meeting once they are being implemented?
<apw> i think we probabally should be tracking those which are features being added
<apw> if people agree, i think we should begin with that for 'Started' ones from next week
<apw> anyone?
<apw> i'll take that one offline then
<apw> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<apw> anything anyone wants to bring up?
<ogasawara> just fyi, I'm going to start some dry runs of the kernel arsenal triaging scripts
<apw> i guess not, we are pretty thin on the ground today
<apw> ogasawara, sounds good
<apw> got a projected live date for that lot?
<ogasawara> apw: I'm hoping in a day or so we'll start on a live small subset of bugs
<apw> sound plan
<apw> anything else?
<apw> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair Selection
<apw> whos turn is it?
<jjohansen> I could give it a try
<apw> jjohansen, you're it :)
<apw> unless anyone has anything else ... we're probabally done
<cking> sounds good to me
<apw> thanks all
<apw> #endmeeting
<amitk> thanks
 * apw slaps mootbot
<apw> useless
<lieb> bye
<cooloney> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-10
<GunbladeIV> [1;3D
<rayChang> /clear
<rayChang>  (íë)
 * mvo looks around
 * liw looks around
 * robbiew waves
<robbiew> I got 1 minute!
<slangasek> morning
<cjwatson> hi
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> hi liw: mvo: slangasek: cjwatson:
<mvo> hi
<robbiew> Keybuk: around? done crying about your iPhone :P
<Keybuk> ;)
<mvo> what happend to it?
<robbiew> Agenda: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0610#Agenda
<robbiew> james_w: awake?
<james_w> aye aye
<mterry> hi
<robbiew> mterry: howdy
<robbiew> last one in takes dmraid
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> mvo: nothing interesting, just told me it had core dumped
<james_w> heh
<robbiew> doko: you joining..or just listening :)
 * evand1 knocks over everyone in his path to the entrance
<al-maisan> robbiew: interesting management technique ;)
<robbiew> thanks for taking dmraid evand1 :P
<doko> robbiew: joining
<robbiew> okay...let's go!
<robbiew> [TOPIC] DMRaid
<MootBot> New Topic:  DMRaid
<robbiew> TheMuso can't take it to Desktop...so I need someone to take it
<mterry> Why is it so scary?  Just needs special hardware?
<cjwatson> ok, so
<robbiew> yeah
<liw> as I understand it the hardware is pretty common (part of the usual intel motherboard chipsets that lots of people have)
<cjwatson> dmraid is a system for dealing with low-end hardware raid - but it's not using a proper raid controller, it's basically done in the bios
<robbiew> well..it's software raid, so I don't think it's that special
<cjwatson> the reason it's a bit scary is that (a) the hardware is nasty (b) the software is nasty
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> TheMuso is willing to help whomever takes it over get up to speed
<doko> nasty + nasty = scary ?
 * slangasek doesn't have the hardware here
<liw> I have the chipset on my desktop machine, but I want to use that machine, and I am not sacrificing its hard disks to dmraid :P
<Keybuk> and (c) scott keeps changing things underneath you
<mterry> How do i know if I have the right hardware?
<cjwatson> it basically occupies an uncomfortable halfway house between proper hardware raid and mdadm
<liw> Keybuk, which Scott? :)
<cjwatson> however, dmraid *mostly* works now; the main thing that's missing is that IIRC the desktop installer doesn't yet deal with it
<mterry> I'm sure I could appropriate some of the OEM hardware, if we have matching stuff
<cjwatson> but of course it needs maintenance, and I understand that the userspace side is being integrated into mdadm at some point
<liw> mterry, TheMuso gave the specs in a previous meeting, but I can't find it now
<cjwatson> every bios vendor has their own flavour of it so there's a certain amount of whack-a-mole involved
<robbiew> mterry: the only issue with you taking it...is when you go back to OEM next cycle
<robbiew> unless you want to keep it :)
<cjwatson> take it, fix it, document it, leave it? :)
<mterry> robbiew: But then doko comes back for it, right?  I thought it was doko's baby.  Maybe I'm misremembering
<liw> robbiew, that's not an issue, that's "distributing knowledge around the company"
<robbiew> mterry: no..TheMuso's
<mterry> Ah
<cjwatson> certainly anyone taking it ought to have the relevant hardware, if only because that provides an incentive to make it work well
<robbiew> right
 * doko is handling over glibc to mterry
<cjwatson> but I imagine there's some company hardware somewhere with it, as you say
<robbiew> I also imagine that I could find some from the server team...since we are doing it for them in many ways
<cjwatson> IIRC there hasn't been a lot of Ubuntu community interest in it unfortunately
<cjwatson> (if I'm wrong, sorry, no slight intended)
<robbiew> maybe we try giving it back to the server team....though I don't have much hope in them taking it
<Keybuk> raid sounds very servery ;)
<mterry> Well, if I'm not suitable, maybe OEM could give up some hardware to someone else, if people are worried about frying their stuff
<liw> dmraid does not sound very servery to me ;-)
 * soren concurs with liw :)
<cjwatson> server people hate dmraid because it's cheap
<evand1> I'm slightly confused by this being driven by the server team but the last missing piece being integration in ubiquity.
<mterry> Everything we have is Intel, and we've got old netbooks
<cjwatson> it's something hot-rod machines sold to gamers use
<cjwatson> anyway, I think it'd be cool for mterry to do it personally
<robbiew> cjwatson: okay
 * liw votes for mterry
<mterry> Again, it's not clear I have the hardware.  Will have to talk to TheMuso
<robbiew> but we'll need to figure out a plan for post-mterry :)
<robbiew> ok
<robbiew> [ACTION] mterry to talk to TheMuso about dmraid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mterry to talk to TheMuso about dmraid
<mterry> I assume we're obligated to love it?
<mterry> Like, we can't just kick it to universe and wipe our hands?
<robbiew> yes...but I can't remember why....cjwatson?
<slangasek> I'd be willing to take it, but the company would need to get me a gaming rig^W^W test machine
<robbiew> heh
<evand1> heh
<cjwatson> largely because lots of real hardware uses it and people get upset when Ubuntu doesn't work right on it
 * ogra puts a "i love hot rods" sticker on mterry's back
<cjwatson> if we aren't dmraid-aware, then if you try to install Ubuntu alongside e.g. an existing Windows installation, then it trashes your Windows installation for you
<ogra> (with lots of flames)
<robbiew> ah...right
<cjwatson> since it desyncs the multiple disks
<robbiew> I recall TheMuso mentioning tht
<robbiew> that
<mterry> cjwatson: Ah.  That just needs marketing as a feature, not a bug.  But good point
 * Keybuk hides the Alienware logo on his desktop
<slangasek> "just" :)
<robbiew> mterry: I guess just chat with TheMuso later today and let me know if you can do it...thnks
<mterry> robbiew: OK
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Karmic Roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Roadmap
<robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.10
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.10
<plars> https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&zx=1bwv90j2o1its&shva=1#inbox
<robbiew> I still need to put in the Medium and Lows...and move over to ubuntu.com
<robbiew> plars: ????
<robbiew> It's becoming clear as I populate the list...that there's NO way we can deliver all this
<robbiew> at least, in my opinion
<james_w> put in the medium and lows?!
<mterry> Heh
<doko> can we add e?glibc-2.10 to the roadmap?
<robbiew> no
<robbiew> heh
<plars> robbiew: sorry, misfire
<doko> robbiew: do you want to stick with 2.9 for karmic?
<robbiew> doko: are you saying glibc or eglibc?
<slangasek> robbiew: do you want multiarch on there as a 'low'? :)
<Keybuk> robbiew: the swap file stuff has two parts
<Keybuk> a boot part and an installer part
<doko> robbiew: parse it as an extended regexp ;)
<robbiew> slangasek: whatever the blueprint says
 * robbiew forgot to put that in...like i said, it's not done
<robbiew> Keybuk: right...okay
<cjwatson> the installer part's pretty trivial - I'd be happy for us to do that bit without splitting up the blueprint
<mterry> I don't see copyright stuff on that list.  Was that not us?
<doko> slangasek: maybe delay that after debconf?
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to break apart the swapfile into boot and installer
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to break apart the swapfile into boot and installer
<Keybuk> cjwatson: the boot part is pretty trivial too ;)
<robbiew> cjwatson: okay
<slangasek> doko: delay what?  after debconf would be too late to start on a spec for karmic...
<robbiew> that works too
<robbiew> mterry: it is...just not gotten to it yet
<slangasek> doko: and I'm trying to get the spec finalized so that Guillem has something to work to
 * mterry is excited about the dep5 future
<slangasek> you're excited about 4 more months of bikeshedding? :)
 * mterry will be excited to have a bikeshed anyway
<liw> slangasek, I'm excited about four months of bikeshedding that you drive :)
<robbiew> so, I obviously need to finish this roadmap today/tomorrow, but wanted to let everyone see it now...to start the panic early ;)
<doko> slangasek: wasn't aware that you do want to finish the spec before
<cjwatson> in case people haven't noticed, BTW, this week is listed on the release schedule as the deadline for getting specs written
<evand1> robbiew: should we contact you about items that are not on that list yet, or are you aware of the missing specs?
<robbiew> I would like us to think about putting delivery milestones for our work...using the section in the blueprints
<robbiew> evand1: no...I'm still building the list
<liw> cjwatson, FeatureDefinitionFreeze? it's not june 18?
<evand1> okay
<cjwatson> liw: see the note against the previous week in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule
<cjwatson> IOW the specs need to be written up so that we have time to sift through them and agree what we're actually doing
<liw> cjwatson, bah, that should be in the .ics file too, too many places to poll :(
<robbiew> cjwatson: +1
<mvo> *ick*
 * mvo will have to focus on spec writing today then
<robbiew> if you already know of work that you simply cannot do...let me know
<robbiew> I can defer it, until next cycle...or help resolve the conflict of priorities
 * Keybuk hasn't even started writing specs yet
 * liw is still recovering from three weeks of travel
<robbiew> cry me a river
<robbiew> lol
<liw> but yeah, finishing the specs I have this week should be reasonably possible, if I stop reading e-mail
 * james_w can finish the specs this week. The work on the other hand... :-)
<robbiew> okay...moving on
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugs
<cjwatson> robbiew: there was precious little agreement on foundations-karmic-ubuntu-one-in-installer, IIRC; the gobby document ends with "we won't change the installer"
<cjwatson> so I think you can safely take that off our list
<robbiew> cjwatson: yep...good point
<robbiew> will do
 * Keybuk writes the words "See implementation" in all his specs
<Keybuk> done!
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to take off ubuntu-one-in-installer
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to take off ubuntu-one-in-installer
<robbiew> Alpha 2 is tomorrow
 * slangasek chooses Keybuk as approver for all his specs
<robbiew> heh
<slangasek> he's the OTS of spec regulation
<Keybuk> OTS?
<slangasek> Office of Thrift Supervision :)
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> not much to say about bugs for alpha2...since it's tomorrow
<robbiew> so moving on to our favorite topic:
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<cjwatson> I sucked during my scheduled timeslot yesterday, but rocked this morning to make up for it
<cjwatson> (until I remembered that we were in soft freeze and rapidly switched to universe stuff, whoops)
<robbiew> FWIW, dholbach has a little website that tries to gather sponsorship stats on each developer
<robbiew> lol
 * slangasek blames all CD problems today on cjwatson 
<robbiew> slangasek: isn't that the norm? :P
<slangasek> no, I usually blame them on Keybuk
<robbiew> somehow that doesn't surprise me
 * james_w sponsored two things this morning, with an hour scheduled on Friday for some more
<robbiew> anyway, I know you all have tons to do...but please make sure to check the queue when you can
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Activity report news
<MootBot> New Topic:  Activity report news
<robbiew> I haven't read them all...but does anyone have something they want to bring up?
<robbiew> taking the silence as a "No!"
<mvo> tomorrow is a public holiday in (my part of) germany
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
<robbiew> mvo: well, that's good news :)
<robbiew> for you
<robbiew> heh
<slangasek> still more merges to be done :)
<mvo> :)
<robbiew> I got a 73" HDTV coming today :D
<slangasek> only 15 merges left under doko's name
<Keybuk> robbiew: your performance review went well, then!
<cjwatson> lots of my specs appear to be pleasingly small
<robbiew> Keybuk: lol...no, my realtor gave me back 2% of her 3% commission ;)
<cjwatson> (couple of meaty ones, there's plenty left to do on grub2)
<robbiew> cjwatson: yeah...I was worried at first
<doko> slangasek: are there some where I should help?
<mvo> slangasek: I can help with those as well
<evand1> 73"?  I have TV envy.
<slangasek> doko, mvo: don't bother with gawk, I'm going to assert my maintainership of the package in Debian and try to get that into a sync
<mterry> 'assert my maintainership' sounds so forceful
<ogra> evand1, above 50" are only for managers :P
<evand1> apparently!
<cjwatson> mterry: this is slangasek's manly side
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:40.
<cjwatson> whoa, I had one AOB
 * mvo is pretty impressed after he calculated what 73" means in centimeter
<robbiew> heh...i see we've digressed
<robbiew> oh
<robbiew> sorry
<cjwatson> anyway, it's quick
<cjwatson> 8.04.3
<mterry> cjwatson: Just like yours is going into the woods without a patch system
<robbiew> fire away
<cjwatson> mterry: hah
<robbiew> heh...that's a significant AOB
<cjwatson> there are a few things that I think still ought to be cleared up for .3 if possible
<cjwatson> evand1: bug 219192
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 219192 in casper "[hardy] livecd: keyword "persistent" results in busybox and (initramfs)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219192
<cjwatson> doko (or somebody who can play him on TV): bug 288279
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 288279 in openjdk-6 "Wrong path for dejavu fonts" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/288279
<evand1> sure thing
<slangasek> mterry: Debian politics... the package was put up for adoption, I adopted it in agreement with the maintainer, someone else is uploading it using maintainer version numbers :)
<cjwatson> and it'd be nice if somebody could look at bug 347303 and bug 246625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 347303 in perl "ENV{TZ} and strftime in perl not working" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/347303
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 246625 in xen-3.3 "libc6-xen not used by dynamic linker" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/246625
<cjwatson> (maybe not for .3 in the latter two cases)
<doko> cjwatson: openjdk-6: I'm tempted to prepare an update for hardy based on the jaunty package
<cjwatson> I have one more of my own to take care of, namely bug 250400
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 250400 in ssl-cert "make-ssl-cert fails if HOME is unset or empty" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/250400
<robbiew> cjwatson: slangasek: anything else related to 8.04.3?
<slangasek> doko: I don't think a wholesale packaging update is appropriate, or likely to clear regression verification in time for .3
<cjwatson> that's all from me, dunno about Steve
<slangasek> nothing else from me; I'll poke people individually for anything critical
<robbiew> okay
<robbiew> #reallyendmeeting
<robbiew> :)
<robbiew> thanks all
<mvo> thanks!
<slangasek> thanks
<liw> gracias
<al-maisan> thanks!
<ara> hola!
<fader> Howdy.
<bdmurray> Hi
<pedro_> hello folks!
 * ogasawara waves
<cr3> yo homies
<heno> hey everyone!
<sbeattie> hey
<schwuk> hi
<eeejay> yo
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> We have a long agenda: UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> well there's was no hug day the last week
<pedro_> but we are having one tomorrow cof cof
<pedro_> based on update-manager and update-notifier
<heno> [TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090611
<pedro_> as always everybody is welcome to join us and clean up those products
<heno> thanks pedro_
<heno> [TOPIC] New bug control members! -- bdmurray
<MootBot> New Topic:  New bug control members! -- bdmurray
<pedro_> my pleasure
<bdmurray> Paul Larson was added as a regular bug control member this past week
<mvo> update-manager!
 * heno hugs mvo
 * mvo hugs heno and pedro_
<cr3> ara: regarding those bugs found for the update-manager, these might be good leads when writing desktop tests
 * pedro_ hugs mvo back
<ara> cr3: indeed
<heno> how many update-manager bugs are really u-m bugs and how many belong to other packages (typically)
<heno> I'm guessing the u-m GUI itself doesn't have that many real bugs
<mvo> heno: hard to say (and I'm biased of course), but I would say > 50% are not really u-m bugs. some are really hard to diagnose though
<mvo> I think one problem is that u-m excercises the system a lot during a disk-upgrade so that HW problems show up more likely
<mvo> it stresses network, mem and disk-io quite a bit
<mvo> at some point I did some statistics, might be worthwhile to redo them
<heno> We should look at doing GUI-driven upgrade testing as part of the dist upgrade spec
<cr3> mvo: would it be worthwhile to run a sanity check on hardware before running tests in order to detect those kinds of failures beforehand?
<heno> if that would help flush out such issues
<mvo> cr3: a interessting idea
<cr3> mvo: luckily, there are plenty of stress test suites out there already for hardware which could be integrated into checkbox
<mvo> heno: absolutely, I hope with "update-manager --sandbox" this is easy(ier) now
<cr3> mvo: I'm not completely convinced this would be useful so I'm just throwing the idea on the table
 * mvo nods
<heno> fortunately the dist upgrade spec is not complete yet ;) so we can consider this
<heno> we'll look at that in the last agenda item
<heno> moving on ...
<heno> [TOPIC] Fridge Calendar Entry - wrong time -- schwuk
<MootBot> New Topic:  Fridge Calendar Entry - wrong time -- schwuk
<schwuk> heno: in progress
<heno> ok
<heno> [TOPIC] Official Bug Tags - should apport- stuff be listed? -- bdmurray
<MootBot> New Topic:  Official Bug Tags - should apport- stuff be listed? -- bdmurray
<bdmurray> Launchpad now suggests the official bug tags when one is adding tags to a bug report and this is something that didn't exist when started the official tags list
<bdmurray> I don't believe it useful for tags like apport-crash and apport-bug to be suggested since they should be added automatically
<bdmurray> So I'd like to remove them from the "official" tag list
<bdmurray> And only keep ones that should be added by people
<sbeattie> does "official" status confer anything else to the tag?
<heno> does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags otherwise map to the LP official list?
<bdmurray> sbeattie: well, they show up in the official portlet vs the "other tags" portlet
<bdmurray> but that's the only other advantage I know of
<heno> bdmurray: you want to remove them from the LP list (are they there?) or just the wiki page?
<bdmurray> heno: some of the ones on the wiki page are experiments (ways to test new tags)
<bdmurray> heno: from the lp list so they aren't recommended when someone is adding tags to a bug report
<heno> bdmurray: makes sense
<bdmurray> heno: they'd stay on the wiki page as they are useful for triagers to understand when or why a tag was added
<heno> we could move them to an automatic section on the wiki page too
<heno> should we also move the experimental ones or highlight them in grey so we get a clear mapping between the two places?
<bdmurray> maybe adding a column for the "official" ones?
<heno> anyway +1 for your original suggestion, bdmurray
<heno> right, or just mark the others with a '*'
<heno> but we're bikesheding ...
<schwuk> heno: Fridge entry fixed.
<heno> [TOPIC] qa.u.c landing page. Any news? -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  qa.u.c landing page. Any news? -- ara
<ara> I just wanted to ask about how this is going
<heno> ok, how about this one :) schwuk ^
<schwuk> IS are finally moving on this (after I poked them) but now there's a permissions problem.
<cr3> how come the landing page says "ubuntu brainstorm"?
<schwuk> cr3: It won't soon :)
<cr3> schwuk: how come it did in the first place?
<schwuk> cr3: because it's currently served by brainstorm - we're switching it to static content.
<cr3> interesting... thanks for the background info
<schwuk> heno: I expect this to be complete by next weeks meeting. Hopefully by the end of this week.
<heno> the ISO tracker share code and used to share an instance, cr3
<heno> schwuk: ok, thanks
<heno> schwuk: can you blog about it when it does?
<ara> schwuk: thanks
<heno> [TOPIC] Testing Days in Karmic -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Testing Days in Karmic -- ara
<ara> I am wondering when should we start again with the testing days
<schwuk> heno: of course
<ara> do you think we are late enough in the cycle to start with them?
<heno> Might be good time for a Hardy.3 SRU testing day
<heno> or possibly Jaunty SRUs?
<sbeattie> heno: hrm, yeah, makes sense
<heno> sbeattie: which one? :)
<sbeattie> both, honestly.
<ara> :)
<heno> ara: things like grub2 and ext4 default are landing
<sbeattie> though hardy.3 should come soon, given upcoming deadline.
<heno> it's early for Gnome stuff though
<sbeattie> yes, I think there's enough stuff landing already that karmic testing days make sense.
<heno> pedro_: when should we expect the first Gnome drops?
<heno> ara: reminds us of the topic suggestion URL?
<ara> heno: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/Features
<heno> ok, let's add our ideas there
<pedro_> heno: IIRC next week we might have some new packages with Gnome 2.27 on karmic
<heno> should we aim for an SRU testing day next Monday?
<sbeattie> heno: that's reasonable.
<heno> sbeattie: which ever release is most pressing, or both
<heno> pedro_: does it make sense to get formal testing of that or is it too raw?
<pedro_> it's a bit raw now, I'd wait for 2.27.4 or .5 which is due to July for doing a more formal testing
<heno> ok
<pedro_> Jul 15 2.27.4 and Jul 29  2.27.5 for being more specific
<heno> ara: is that enough to get us started?
<ara> heno: sure, we can start with srus, then ext4 and/or grub2 and then move to gnome stuff
<heno> ok, great
<ara> sbeattie: for next monday hardy or jaunty?
<heno> there are also some new Karmic features listed here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/RegressionImmunisation
<sbeattie> Right now, hardy, but I may expand it to cover jaunty as well.
<sbeattie> ara ^
<heno> speaking of which ...
<heno> [TOPIC] SRU Verifications -- sbeattie
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU Verifications -- sbeattie
<sbeattie> First, thanks to Alexei Mokeev, ZelinskiyIS, gidantribal, medisoft, ded, and Patryk Bajer for testing SRUs and helping to get them out.
<sbeattie> And second, as mentioned above, 8.04.3 is coming (july 9th I believe).
<heno> sbeattie: do we know when the verification deadline is?
<sbeattie> Hrm, no, I'll ask slangasek.
<sbeattie> But I would expect a week or two before.
<heno> ok
<sbeattie> Sine there'll be a run up time of image testing.
<heno> right
<heno> how many images are we doing now, just Ubuntu server?
<sbeattie> hrm, once again, I don't recall if we're spinning desktop images as well.
<sbeattie> The calendar at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule doesn't say
<heno> ok
<heno> next
<heno> [TOPIC] Spec Roadmap review -- heno
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec Roadmap review -- heno
<heno> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap
<heno> it's looking better, but there are still gaps
<heno> let's go down the list of non-Approved specs and get some drafting ETAs
<heno> Specialization Within bug-control
<heno> pedro_: ^?
<pedro_> I'm a bit behind with my spec, since i wasn't around the last week but i hope to have that drafted by the end of the week
<bdmurray> What's the (i) for on that page?
<heno> pedro_: right, do you need some help drafting?
<pedro_> for hopefully having more opinions on the subject from the community team
<heno> bdmurray: informational
<heno> I should add it to the key :)
<pedro_> heno: that'd be nice :-)
<heno> ogasawara: Package Greasemonkey Scripts ?
<ogasawara> heno: hoping to get it done by end of the week since I just became the drafter yesterday
<heno> understood
<heno> ogasawara: could you also add the two kernel bug specs to that page?
<bdmurray> I'll be helping out with that one
<ogasawara> heno: will do
<heno> bdmurray: great, thanks
<heno> fader: Extended Audio Testing ?
<fader> Hoping to get it done today, but I'll promise no later than EOD tomorrow.
<fader> (i.e. you can hold me to that :) )
<heno> ok. we talked about what needs doing to it
<heno> sounds good
<heno> ogasawara: Suspend Resume Testing - same situation on that one I guess
<ogasawara> heno: yup
<heno> to be fair I made up that spec yesterday ...
<ogasawara> :)
<heno> sbeattie: Distribution Upgrade Testing ?
<heno> I think you said we should ask mvo to look at that one too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/DistributionUpgradeTesting
<sbeattie> Yep, if mvo could help flash that out, it'd be great.
<heno> same goes for james_w with the package testing spec
<cr3> sbeattie: yeah, I'd like to see mvo "flash" too!
<heno> sbeattie: can we set an ETA though?
<sbeattie> heno: otherwise, by end of the week.
<cr3> james_w: if you need help with that spec, I'm your man
<heno> ok, thanks
<maco> what a line to enter the buffer on
<schwuk> maco: you should be used to cr3 by now
<heno> I guess mgunes isn't here
<heno> Testing Weather Report still needs some drafting
<heno> like answering the python vs. ruby question :)
<heno> I can poke some more at that too
<heno> schwuk: the 2 checkbox specs?
<schwuk> heno: enhancements tomorrow, wishlist friday
<heno> again to be fair, we've regrouped those a great deal
<heno> schwuk: ok, thanks
<schwuk> yeah - there's a lot folded into those
<heno> cr3: the checkbox filters spec - draft or punt to Karmic+1?
<cr3> heno: draft, I totally forgot about that one
<heno> ok, thanks
<heno> now: who has started implementation work?
<heno> o/ :)
 * fader hides.
<cr3> o/... I couldn't help myself :(
<cr3> (note that the dots under my arm pit emoticon aren't stink waves)
<heno> that's not really expected though :)
<heno> we'll revisit the list in 3-4 weeks to look at implementation progress
<heno> did I leave any key specs off that list?
<cr3> karmic-qa-marc-needs-to-grow-up?
<schwuk> lol
<james_w> cr3: am I drafting the package testing one?
<heno> eeejay: are you planning to write a separate Ubiquity automation spec?
<heno> If so, let me know if you need a hand scoping it out
<cr3> james_w: actually, I believe fader is, so you're probably off the hook... for now
<fader> james_w: I'm drafting one but there's another as well
<james_w> excellent :-)
<eeejay> heno: sure, i could do that
<fader> james_w: I'm not sure who is drafting it though -- I thought it was you :/
<cr3> fader: could you let us know the url for the spec, I can't seem to find it
<james_w> fader: let's chat after
<heno> james_w: I understand you are involved with a related package spec on the foundation track?
<fader> james_w, cr3: Sounds good, we can straighten this out after the meeting
<cr3> james_w: heno is referring to the last session during uds
<heno> eeejay: great, we can talk later
<james_w> heno: yeah, myself and mvo are interested in much the same things as your team apparently, so we're going to combine efforts
<heno> sounds good
<heno> we are at time
<james_w> we didn't have a clear picture of what would happen this cycle and who would do what after the session though, so we agreed to discuss it after UDS
<heno> any other urgent business?
<heno> james_w: makes sense
<heno> we are just emerging from that phase ourselves ;)
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:02.
<heno> thanks everyone!
<james_w> thanks all
<pedro_> thanks you!
<ara> cheers
<sbeattie> thanks!
 * fader waves.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-11
<persia> Anyone here for the Java meeting?
<ttx> o/
<persia> RIght then.  Let's get started.
<persia> I forget to prepare an agenda for this week, but the standing agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting (but I'm not prepared to discuss the leftover items).
<persia> Anyone else have anything they'd like to raise?
<ttx> nope
<persia> Right then.  I'll try to be less surprised next week :)
<persia> meeting adjourned.
 * MenZa hugs persia 
<Crazyguy> persia, that was one interesting meeting! :)
<persia> Crazyguy, Well, that's what happens when one fails to prepare.  Always better to plan ahead.
<Crazyguy> indeed
<Laney> .sb e
<Laney> whoops
<xerox1> am I too late for the meeting? here since 1,5 hours but no discussions at all
<czajkowski> 15:09 < persia> meeting adjourned
<xerox1> czajkowski, ok thx
<xerox1> any new date for it?
<czajkowski> xerox1: no idea sorry,
<xerox1> ok
<persia> xerox1, Which meeting?
<xerox1> bug squad
<persia> I think you're about 22 hours late, but I could be mistaken.  You might be early.
<xerox1> hm, maybe i have written down a wrong date
<highvoltage> hi!
<LaserJock> everybody here?
<LaserJock> hmm
<erieslabnx> many are here :)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: if we have a very low turnout may I suggest that we do something more impromptu later on?
 * ogra pretends he's not here  .... (in a conf call but lurking from time to time)
<LaserJock> highvoltage: right
<stgraber> heya
<czajkowski> anyone knoe when the next meeting  for approval for locos is on ?
<boredandblogging> czajkowski: JanC is about post that info
<czajkowski> aye thanks asked in -locoteams
<czajkowski> we're all in pub having a meeeting
<ogra_> boo
<NCommander> #startmeetin
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:01. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra_> :P
<ogra_> anyone else here apart from us two ?
<NCommander> [topic] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<NCommander> I'm here, ogra's here
<NCommander> if your not here, say I
<dyfet> Im here...
<ogra_> lool, plars and davidm are travelling :)
<ogra_> GrueMaster, awake ?
<NCommander> do we have a quorum requirement for these meetings?
<ogra_> nope
<NCommander> no StevenK
<ogra_> lets just rush over the agenda and actions ...
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090611
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090611
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<ogra_> spec deadline is next week afaik
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<ogra_> (then they need to d)
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander's action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander's action items
<ogra_> (then they need to be approved)
<NCommander> I received no proposals for handling bugs
<ogra_> weird, this system swallows half of my typing
<NCommander> co on vnc4 and linux bug (also on roadmap)
<ogra_> well, we agreed on a single tag
<ogra_> and plars already cleaned up
<NCommander> ogra_, right, that I got, but I meant w.r.t. to subscribing teams
<NCommander> Which is what I was accepting proposals for
<ogra_> well, give it another week and probably send around another reminder mail
<NCommander> yup
<NCommander> I've been looking at the thunderbird 2 segfault. Its a bug dying deep within the depths of TB (and will be non-trivial to fix)
<ogra_> yeah
<NCommander> I've confirmed though upstream snapshots are unaffected.
<ogra_> i discussed with asac
<NCommander> ogra, seems I missed that discussion
<ogra_> we'll pull TB3 into univery case
<ogra_> tsk
<ogra_> *universe
<ogra_> in any case
<NCommander> so c/o on the thunderbird segfault, but I will talk with lool if we *really* care enough to fix this; its got a high risk of time sinkyness
<NCommander> [topic] ogra's action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra's action items
 * ogra_ sighs about his typing going nowhere
<ogra_> i havent reviewed pm-dashboard yet
<ogra_> will do so tomorrow
<NCommander> so a c/p
<NCommander> er, c/o
<ogra_> way to many calls this week
<NCommander> I'm going to skip spec review. Too few people, and only ogra put stuff on the roadmap (and I got no emails from anyone, nor time estimates as requested from David)
<ogra_> right
<NCommander> We might need to do an ad-hoc meeting this week to nail it out, as feature deadline is coming up
<ogra_> and my specs are not finished, i only put them up on the roadmap yet
<NCommander> Will discuss with David, and fire an email to the mailing list; I *really* don't want to let this slide yet another week
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> i'll be off on monday (fyi)
<NCommander> [topic] Discussion and handling of ARM bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion and handling of ARM bugs
<NCommander> that's a c/o
<ogra_> yeah
<NCommander> (ENOPEOPLE]
<NCommander> Again with Roadmap construction
<NCommander> [topic] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<ogra_> none from me
<NCommander> none here
<NCommander> I thnk we can call this meeting done
<ogra_> dyfet, anything ?
<dyfet> Nope
<dyfet> Yes...actually...
<ogra_> shoot
<NCommander> (there goes the dream of a 10 minute meeting)
<dyfet> NCommander: I do appologize for not getting back to you on specs
<ogra_> :P
<NCommander> dyfet, np on that, no one responded, so no issue
<NCommander> I'm just channeling persia's spec drum
<ogra_> heh
<NCommander> I'll be yelling at people this week on that
<NCommander> Any other business?
<GrueMaster> I'm back.  Distracted by food.
 * NCommander has none
<NCommander> GrueMaster, good, the meeting just about over
<ogra_> food is a valid reason
<GrueMaster> Glad I didn't miss anything.  :P
<persia> The spec drum is the reward for the effort of sending out meeting announcements :p
<ogra_> GrueMaster, anything you want to breing up ?
<NCommander> persia, the spec drum is a burden, not a blessing
<ogra_> *bring
<GrueMaster> nope.
<NCommander> Cool
<NCommander> I call this meeting to a close in 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:12.
<ogra_> NCommander, its a honor not a burden :)
<NCommander> ogra_, mep :-P
 * ogra_ goes back to do evening things ... well, rather late night things .... bye
<NCommander> ogra_, I highly recommend sleep
<ogra_> that too
 * NCommander is kinda expecting StevenK to pop online, and wonder why we're all quiet
<NCommander> :-)
<ogra_> but susie didnt see much of me today ... i have to commit to the social side a bit first :)
<ogra_> night all
<NCommander> ogra_, I recommend flowers and dinner. night!
<NCommander> argh
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-12
<vorian> @now
<st33med> @what?
<lool> NCommander, ogra: I think the thunderbird issue should be findable in the VCS log or a quick bisect, no?
<dholbach> hello everybody, we should have persia, soren and nixternal here
<dholbach> who's here for the MC meeting?
 * stgraber waves
 * nellery is here
<nixternal> yodle yodle yodle
<nixternal> agenda?
<dholbach> hi stgraber and nellery :)
<dholbach> nixternal, persia, soren: who wants to chair?
 * persia waves
 * persia doesn't today
<dholbach> ok, I understand - I do it :-)
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 02:02. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
<dholbach> nixternal: agenda ^ :-)
<nixternal> looking at it now :)
<dholbach> vorian, AnAnt: you guys around?
<persia> First up is AnAnt, who can't make it today.
<vorian> YUS!
<dholbach> ok great, let's take vorian first then
<persia> vorian, So, You put MOTU/Core-Dev as your application type.  Which are you seeking today?
<dholbach> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication
<vorian> persia: MOTU
<persia> OK.  So we'll ignore the application for now, and just do a MOTU renewal?
<vorian> Yes, if that's okay?
<persia> That's fine.  The other option was to do a application for core-dev recommendation :)
<nixternal> why is it everytime we do a meeting that has to do with membership lp is dead for me?
<dholbach> nixternal: what do yo umean?
<persia> So, for MOTU renewal, the thing I always want to know is: What do you plan to work on if renewed?
<nixternal> takes forever to load up, it is up now
<vorian> persia: I plan on continuing to work on KDE related packaging with the Kubuntu team, including most of the KDE stack - and several neet aps in universe.  I also would like to rejoin sponsors
<persia> All areas where you've done great work in the past :)
<nixternal> Care to explain the reasoning behind jettisoning MOTU originally, and what you plan on doing to prevent that sort of thing from happening again?
<vorian> thanks :)
 * nixternal had to be the ass :)
<vorian> nixternal: fair question
 * dholbach learned the word "jettison" today
<nixternal> plus I wanted to beat persia to the question :)
<nixternal> dholbach: I used it pretty much every day aboard ship in the navy :)
<vorian> I was extremely frustrated with the way the TB meeting went down, frustrated with my responses, the timing of it, the whole thing.  Then there were some other areas in real life that were causing me to be stressed out as well.
<vorian> I almost immediatley regretted doing it, and have had a few months to ponder what I could have done differently
<nixternal> has it been that long already?
<vorian> which is just to take a step back, and chill out
<vorian> yeah :/
<dholbach> vorian: how many areas in Ubuntu do you see right now that are frustrating to you?
<nixternal> personally, since I get to work with you every day, I think that was honestly the best thing you could have done in regards to chilling out, as you have become more all around in the community as well
<vorian> dholbach: none right now.
<persia> vorian, I can't believe that.  *Something* must frustrate you.
<nixternal> he has the art of zen mastered now
<persia> Otherwise, there's no reason to make it better :)
<vorian> well, yes
<nixternal> how about the idiot from openSUSE leaving a shite comment on my blog today? that has to frustrate you :p
<vorian> Comments like a SuSE troll made on nixternals blog frustrate me
<nixternal> ghahahahah
<nixternal> holy shite
 * vorian finds a link
<dholbach> vorian: is there anything else other than chilling out that you'd recommend to other people who get into a similar position as you did?
<vorian> dholbach: yes, absolutely
<nixternal> heh, i thought i was the only one who read that :)
<vorian> take a moment and private message a good friend or two
<vorian> reach out.  It's what I really should have done.
<vorian> dholbach, persia: yes, actually there are a few Kubuntu things that frustrate me - we seem to have slipped a bit in qa
<dholbach> that makes sense, especially as we're a very distributed team and have different cultures, context goes missing on IRC, etc. etc. - it's very easy to take things wrong on a bad day
<vorian> it's a topic on out "to do" list for Karmic - and I intend to help out on the QA side of things
<nixternal> for me, getting back to the development roots has helped curve a current session of burnout I was starting to face...I still love the community, but I had to step back from being so entwined
<vorian> dholbach: agreed
<nixternal> w00t, vorian and I rocking the QA
<persia> vorian, So, to get back to the last question you were asking in confirmation procedures: can you share any details on some of the pitfalls involved in changing between different versions of libdb?
<persia> s/asking/asked/
<nixternal> I have one more apport todo first then it is off to the races with qa and hopefully talking to ara about stuff and polling them for some assistance to get everything kickstarted
 * nixternal feels good cop bad cop
<vorian> persia: if the transition is not done correctly existing data could be lost.
<persia> Or corrupted, but yes.  Thanks :)
<persia> Is there a way to check if a given package will suffer that fate?
<vorian> yes, if 'transation' is in the source code
 * persia is done with questions
<dholbach> nixternal, soren: any more questions?
<nixternal> dholbach: not from me, I have seen vorian grow since his little break, which really wasn't a break in all honestly...he has rebounded very well from the prior situation and I am so happy that he stuck around
 * dholbach is done too
<dholbach> soren? :)
<vorian> nixternal: i'm happy to have lurked around, helping too :)
<soren> Sorry, my phone rang.
 * soren catches up.
<soren> Nah, I think you guys covered it pretty well.
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Stephen Stalcup re-join the MOTU team?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Stephen Stalcup re-join the MOTU team?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<dholbach> congratulations vorian and welcome back
<vorian> thanks!
<dholbach> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NickEllery/MOTUApplication
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NickEllery/MOTUApplication
<dholbach> hiya nellery - still around?
<nellery> yup, I'm here
<dholbach> how are you doing? everything alright?
<nixternal> congrats and welcome back skooter
<nellery> I'm pretty good, a bit nervous of course
<vorian> :)
<dholbach> nellery: your application lists nhandler and me as endorsements... is there anybody else you worked primarily with?
<persia> nellery, You mention a couple things in "Things I could do better" that worry me: specifically "Ensuring that there no errors in uploads by going out of my way to double and triple check " and "Not to be too overconfident that an upload is perfect as it may blind me from errors ".  How do you intend to protect yourself against these issues without a sponsor?
<nellery> dholbach: primarily in the karmic cycle, it has been you two who have done most of my sponsorship
<nellery> I did get in touch with another sponsor, but they didn't provide any endorsements
<nellery> persia: Errors have been nearly non-existant for the past while.  I intend to keep it this way by not rushing, staying within my confidence level, asking questions when necessary, and as mentioned, double checking for small errors
<persia> nellery, So these are things you're already doing better?
<e-jat> congrate vorian
<nellery> persia: essentially, and I believe that it will only get even better
<nixternal> nellery: I was going to ask about *rushing* as it seems to be a common pitfull among many these days...one thing I would like to propose is that you do not stick within your confidence level and that you in fact step out of it from time-to-time, it will help you grow not only yourself, but also your level of confidence within yourself
<persia> nellery, One of your sponsors comments that much of your work has been with merges.  Do you have a couple examples of bugfixes you've written that you thought were good?
<nixternal> in times of going outside the box, it is fine to grab support along the way, a helping hand is always good when building up confidence
<nellery> nixternal: I absolutely agree with that, but I also believe that without a sponsor, that should not be done over extravagently
<nixternal> tis why I said a bit of hand holding is fine
<dholbach> nellery: there's nothing wrong with saying "can somebody take a look at this?" on IRC :-)
<\sh> 4 eyes are better than 2 eyes...even old maintainers do mistakes...and one reviewer more is helping you, me, everybody doing this kind of work
<vorian> i sponsored nellery on a few plasmoids, he did a very solid job
<nixternal> a lot of us MOTU ask others to look over our packages from time-to-time before uploading...it is actually a good thing to do, because after sticking your nose in the same thing all of the time, you start to become lazy or you start missing stuff, especially little thing
<nixternal> s
<dholbach> nellery: coming back to the question I asked earlier... is there many people (maybe on IRC) that you work with? is kde and science something you'd like to work on in the future or are you going stay "all over the place"? :)
<nellery> dholbach: personally I wish to stay "all over the place" within universe
<nellery> without any specific areas I restrict myself to
<dholbach>  ... and that with so many interesting packages in main! :-)
<nixternal> for instance, on bug 384331 looks like config.sub and config.guess made it into the debdiff...just to point out that even as a MOTU, stepping out and guidance are good, as nhandler did in this situation...I can't tell you how many times I have missed either this sort of thing or the big one that always hit me were translation files ending up in it...and like \sh said, 4 yes are better than 2 at time
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 384331 in klogic "Please merge klogic 1.63-5 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/384331
<nellery> persia: sorry missed your question.  Back in Jaunty I noticed that some plasmoids were not renamed during the transition, and opened bug #329627 to fix this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 329627 in plasma-widget-tvprogramme "Some unchanged plasmoid source/binary package names" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/329627
<nellery> nixternal: yes, and without a sponsor, guidance outside of bug reports is definetly something I will look to whenever necessary
<persia> nellery, Any bugfixes involving code changes?
<nixternal> groovy
<nellery> persia: for the most part I'm not much a coder
<nellery> getting better, but still not good enough to make those sort of fixes
<dholbach> persia, geser, soren, nixternal: any more questions?
<nixternal> I am good
<nixternal> I got him to say exactly what I wanted..I should be a cop or something, I am that darn good :p
<persia> nellery, What classes of differences from Debian should be preserved?
<dholbach> nixternal: you probably better shouldn't :)
<nixternal> my laptop says it is 5:52pm
<nixternal> brb
<\sh> nixternal's a Bad Boy ;)
<nixternal> had to hop on my other machine
<nixternal> laptop locked up
<soren> I'm good too.
<nellery> persia: what do you mean by "classes of differences"?
<soren> Sorry about being so slow to respond. My laptop seems to be swapping like crazy.
 * soren switches to another machine
<nixternal> hahaha, 2 machines down
<persia> nellery, You say "As a sponsor, I would ensure that everything that should be forwarded is forwarded." when talking about forwarding patches to Debian.  What types of patches should be forwarded, and what type not forwarded?
<nixternal> there we go, back to the laptp
<nellery> persia: patches which fix bugs which affect both distributions as well as those which add features such as desktop files, watch files, updated dependencies
<nellery> patches which are not Ubuntu specific
<persia> Well, some of the things you just mentioned often are Ubuntu-specific.  Any idea which might be?
<geser> nellery: how do you determine if a bug exists in Debian too and is not due to some other changes in Ubuntu?
<nixternal> persia: actually 2 of them could be :)
<persia> nixternal, No hints.  I know you are qualified to be a MOTU :)
<nixternal> lol
<nellery> persia: updated dependencies may affect only one distribution, for example if the upstream releases are different versions, or that upstream version is only one or the other distribution
<persia> nellery, Right.  Also, Ubuntu sometimes has special dependencies (like for LPintegration).
<persia> And the other one?
<nellery> a desktop file may be Ubuntu specific if it uses category not used in Debian
<nixternal> booyah
<persia> Well, no, because XDG categories are supposed to apply to both, but it was .desktop files.
<dholbach> (or different names for the app, etc. - right :-))
<nixternal> or, di...damn dholbach beat me to it
<persia> (or different defaults for where to show, or whether to show by default)
<persia> OK.  I'm done.
<nixternal> yay, one step closer to taking out the trash and going to bed :)
<dholbach> geser, soren: any more questions?
<geser> no
<soren> Nope.
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Nick Ellery join the MOTU team?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Nick Ellery join the MOTU team?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +0 : I'd like a little more variation in work done, or more clear confidence in someone seeking to be a sponsor.
<MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
 * soren apologises again... was swtiching back to the laptop
<nixternal> figured you were, I did mine as I had my desktop up as well
<dholbach> geser?
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<dholbach> congratulations nellery!
<persia> nellery, Congratulations!
<dholbach> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
<nixternal> congrats and welcome nellery...in regards to "sponsoring" I echo persia
<dholbach> stgraber: still around? :)
 * stgraber wakes up
<nellery> thanks! persia: that's absolutely something I will put much effort into, and you should expect to see change
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> stgraber: how are you doing?
<stgraber> dholbach: tired but fine :)
<persia> nellery, Take extra care, because if you're not much of a coder, it's easy to be confused when reviewing a code patch.
<soren> stgraber: Sheesh, what time is it at your place now? 4 AM or something?
<dholbach> survived UDS without Ubuflu?
<stgraber> 4am yeah
 * ogra looks up
<nellery> thank you all.. time for some sleep
<stgraber> dholbach: strangely yes :) first time it happens
<dholbach> nellery: good night!
<dholbach> great :)
<dholbach> stgraber: so what kind of packages are you interested in working on specifically?
<stgraber> well, other than the packages I already have upload right for, I'd mainly be working on education packages for edubuntu and bug fixing in the server area
<soren> \o/
<persia> stgraber, What measures do you think should be taken to make the processes clearer?
<ogra> seein soren cheer, /me sees virtualized LTSP ahead
<ogra> :)
<nixternal> oh no, who let ogra in here?
 * ogra pokes nixternal in the ribs :)
 * nixternal uploaded edubuntu-desktop with kde* only in the meta
<stgraber> persia: recently, it was the SRU process that wasn't really clear to a few of my co-workers. It was well described on the wiki but without the "nag someone from the team" part, the bug can stay on launchpad for a while :)
<ogra> heh
<nixternal> it should be KDE desktop, since all of the apps are :p
<persia> stgraber, Right.  What should be done to improve that?
<stgraber> persia: probably having more motu-sru members would help or document the steps to take if for example you don't get an answer in your sru bug report after x weeks
<persia> stgraber, How do you expect archive-reorganisation to affect Edubuntu?
<stgraber> well, I hope it'll make it a lot easier to get new contributors, though in the meantime we're looking at also having a few packages from universe in Edubuntu (that's in the TB's agenda for next meeting IIRC)
<stgraber> currently it's kind of hard to find new contributors as if they want direct upload rights they need to be core developers
<dholbach> stgraber: how many packages (roughly) are in edubuntu right now (that are not ubuntu+ltsp+friends)?
<stgraber> dholbach: ltsp is actually no longer part of edubuntu :) let me find some numbers
<dholbach> oh really?
<nixternal> enough packages to make the addon cd full :)
<nixternal> well just over half full
<stgraber> yeah, it's on Ubuntu alternate since Hardy (IIRC)
<persia> stgraber, you applied for MOTU apparently in large part towads seeking your per-package uploader permissions.  Have you found you worked in many other areas as well, or did you feel that you were mostly concentrated on the packages for which you had per-package upload rights?
<ogra> dholbach, missed the memo, eh ? :)
<stgraber> persia: mostly on the packages for which I have the ACL and for a few others but that are also in main
<dholbach> persia: good question... stgraber: I was just about to ask what kind of server stuff you'd like to work on
<dholbach> ogra: well... I can't read ALL the memos :)
<stgraber> wget http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/jaunty/release/edubuntu-9.04-addon-i386.list  -O - -q | grep deb$ | wc -l
<stgraber> 228
<stgraber> that's for the edubuntu addon cd
<ogra> LTSP relies on a good bunch of server packages ... to enhance or improve it working on these packages will be required
<ogra> (and i wasnt actually joking when i said virtualized LTSP as an option of vm builder for example ;) )
<stgraber> well, LTSP's dependencies for a start (dhcp, tftp, inetd, ...) if needed and also basically everything else as my company does infrastructure work and so we touch basically every bit of the server stuff :)
<ogra> ... or LTSP in the clouds ;)
<stgraber> currently playing with OpenVZ and libvirt for example
<soren> ogra: I was about to say just that.
<soren> ogra: (the cloud thing)
<stgraber> well, I'm currently sponsoring highvoltage to get ltsp-cluster in universe
<persia> stgraber, One of your sponsors mentions that you'll be expected to be working with the Edubuntu seeds.  How are they organised?
<ogra> soren, i know, i read your mind ... just wanted to be faster ;)
<soren> ogra: :)
<stgraber> so we'll have the loadbalancer and control center part for LTSP that could the be used for LTSP in the cloud
<dholbach> stgraber: is there anything that you'd be too scared to touch in main?
<stgraber> persia: we currently have one for each of our meta packages (preschool/primary/secondary/tertiary)  then the ones for the edu packages for both kde and gnome IIRC, also one for the edubuntu content server (moodle basically)
<stgraber> though that's on my list of stuff to do soon with the Edubuntu project becoming a lot more active recently, haven't had a chance to look at the details yet
<stgraber> dholbach: sure :) I'm not going to play with kernel, X, ... unless I get that review by someone else first as these are things I'm not used to touch (although for X I'm getting to know it quite well recently) and so don't know the details and decisions which were taken in the past
<dholbach> persia, soren, geser, nixternal: more questions?
<stgraber> there's always the difference between having the right to do something and actually doing it without asking :)
<soren> Not really.
 * soren things this is an easy one :)
<soren> thinks, even.
<persia> Nothing else from me.
<nixternal> none here
<geser> stgraber: for someone applying as core-dev I've expected to see some sponsored uploads to main, but your LP page doesn't show any. any explanations?
<ogra> geser, he already has limited main uploads rights for various packages ... i (and laserjosk) did sponsor him in intrepid
<ogra> *laserjock
<stgraber> geser: hmm, I already have the rights for most of my uploads, though I recently got libXcb uploaded and compiz (though part of another fix so not mentioned as the uploader)
<dholbach> geser: any more questions?
<geser> I assumed that extending the upload rights to full core-dev implies a broader interested in some other packages which should (hopefully) be also seen in sponsored uploads in this area
<stgraber> indeed, that'd be edubuntu in my case
<stgraber> edubuntu wasn't active until last UDS
<stgraber> well, it was but not as active as we'd like it to be
<geser> dholbach: done
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall StÃ©phane Graber be recommended for core-dev membership?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall StÃ©phane Graber be recommended for core-dev membership?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
 * nixternal can take the garbage out now and go to bed?
<soren> +11
<soren> whoops
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nixternal> lol
<dholbach> soren: bad call! :)
<ogra> good call !!
 * soren picks up a penalty card
<persia> +1.  I'd *much* rather recommend as edubuntu-dev, but I don't think we can do that yet, and I think stgraber has the wisdom to restrict himself.
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<ogra> persia, doesnt help with all the server packages :)
<nixternal> congrats and good look on the next step
 * ogra hugs stgraber 
<dholbach> weird... seems like persia's vote was not counted?
<persia> ogra, I don't see evidence of the server work.
<stgraber> thanks !
 * persia tries again
<ogra> persia, LTSP uses about 10 server packages that need to be touched often
<dholbach> persia: try again with out the '.'
<nixternal> are we done?
<persia> +1 although I'd prefer to be recommending for edubuntu-dev
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dholbach> [endvote]
 * stgraber looks at his bed and then the clock ... doh ... only 2 hours before having to wake up :)
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<persia> There we go.  '.' kills it.
<dholbach> thanks a bunch everybody and congratulations stgraber!
<stgraber> dholbach: thanks
<nixternal> alrighty!!! \o/
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
 * dholbach is happy to do the honours
<nixternal> note here
 * nixternal needs to go to bed...can barely stay awake
<persia> ogra, I don't see why that couldn't be covered by an extension of the LTSP ACL, and I think it's separate from the other documented work.
<nixternal> g'nite!
<dholbach> nixternal: sleep tight then :)
 * ogra adds topic, keeping nixternal busy 
 * nixternal hugs everyone!
<nixternal> except for ogra
<ogra> heh
<nixternal> nite nite
<persia> Who volunteers to do the admin for the meeting?
<persia> Ah.  Thanks dholbach :)
<dholbach> anything else?
<dholbach> 3
<dholbach> 2
<soren> 2
<dholbach> 1
<dholbach> Meeting adjourned.
<soren> \o/
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 03:31.
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody
<dholbach> and congratulations to nellery, stgraber and vorian again :)
<highvoltage> yay stgraber core-dev \o.
<highvoltage> yay stgraber core-dev \o/
<dholbach> highvoltage: recommended, the TB needs to approve still
<AnAnt> Hello
<AnAnt> meeting is over ?
<persia> AnAnt, Indeed.  Hours ago.
 * slangasek waves
 * ttx waves
<fader> Howdy.
 * apw zones in
<heno> hey
<pitti> hello
<superm1> hai
<sbeattie> hey
<cjwatson> afternoon
<slangasek> mdz, lool, rickspencer3, Riddell, Hobbsee, ScottK: there?
<slangasek> rickspencer3: oh, I guess you're here since you just joined :)
<slangasek> ttx: are you sitting in for dendrobates?
<ttx> slangasek: last minute replacement, yes
<slangasek> ok
<dyfet> slangasek: i am standing in for lool
<rickspencer3> slangasek: I'm lurking today, pitti si driving for desktop
<rickspencer3> (as usual :) )
 * apw is sitting in for pgraner 
<slangasek> robbiew and pgraner both send their regrets
 * pgraner is lurking due to conf call 
<robbiew> ditto
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-12 - agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-12 - agenda
<slangasek> let's get right into it, then
<slangasek> I've been asked to bump Foundations up because cjwatson has another conflict, so let's cover that first
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team
<cjwatson> right, sorry about that
<cjwatson> Robbie is working through a feature list; for Canonical folks it's at https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.10 but I think he wants to get all the specs into it before putting it on the public wiki
<cjwatson> that should happen shortly
<cjwatson> current count is 7 essential, 9 high, 14 medium, 2 low, with several low still to come; draw your own conclusions about delivery :-)
<cjwatson> regarding the bugs Steve listed in the agenda: I fixed bug 385995 today, and Michael apparently fixed bug 378997 a little while back but didn't close the bug, so I'll clean up the metadata there
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 385995 in grub-installer "sometimes tries to edit menu.lst even with GRUB 2" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/385995
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 378997 in cwidget "cwidget FTBFS with g++-4.4" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/378997
<slangasek> ah, nice :)
<cjwatson> the introduction of GRUB 2 in Alpha 2 was a bit rocky, I thought, so personally I'm going to be putting a fair bit of effort for the next milestone on making sure that's more solid
 * slangasek goes rummaging for more bugs for next week...
<cjwatson> one of our high-priority specs is the switch to building as i586
<cjwatson> IIRC we said we'd do test rebuilds after alpha 2 ...
<slangasek> infinity poked me about that yesterday in order to take a snapshot
<cjwatson> oh, he's on it already? good
<cjwatson> other than that I don't think I have anything else to report - anything from others to us?
<ttx> cjwatson: I see bug 364616 on steve's list for Server
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364616 in ubuntu-release-notes "Wrong iscsistart path in iscsi hook" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364616
<cjwatson> mm, that probably ought to become ours
<slangasek> ok
 * ttx hugs cjwatson
<apw> cjwatson, has the work to make grub 'quiet' fallen anywhere?
<cjwatson> it'll be handled as part of our installer/iscsi specification (which is part "fix all the bugs", part development)
<cjwatson> apw: part of the foundations-karmic-grub2 spec, as yet incompletely drafted
<apw> cjwatson, thanks
<slangasek> cjwatson: should I assign that bug to anyone in particular?
<cjwatson> slangasek: if you need an assignee for it right now, it's me; I'm not sure whether that spec is going to stay with me
<slangasek> don't need one per se, but it's good to have; assigned
<slangasek> is that still a realistic target for jaunty SRU, btw?
<cjwatson> I think so
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> people won't be able to do installations directly, but still
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> moving on
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<slangasek> (thanks, cjwatson)
<heno> hi
<slangasek> heno, fader, sbeattie: hello
 * fader waves.
<heno> fader: HW testing?
<fader> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<fader> Bug 384861 is interfering with testing the lab servers (it's not initializing Broadcom ethernet cards so the PXE install can't proceed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 384861 in linux "Broadcom NetXtreme II (BCM5708) not detected by installer [karmic]" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/384861
<fader> That's hitting a large number of systems so it's a fairly big blocker for us on server testing
<fader> There are a few other systems that haven't reported results that I'm looking into but that is the only big issue I've seen so far.
<slangasek> apw: can you make sure that bug gets priority attention from the kernel team?
<apw> that bug has some proposed patches, and they are out for review on the kernel list
<apw> it seems to be unassigned, so i will take it and drive those in
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> [ACTION] apw to drive bug #384861
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw to drive bug #384861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 384861 in linux "Broadcom NetXtreme II (BCM5708) not detected by installer [karmic]" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/384861
<cjwatson> should mostly be a matter of applying the patches and getting quick testing turnaround at this point
<apw> yep ... i acked them last night, will hastle others for review and get them in
<heno> sbeattie says nothing to report on regressions this week
<heno> though I will point out that we are tracking Karmic changes for high risk items: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/RegressionImmunisation
<heno> so please let us know about major upstream or local changes that can be high risk
<heno> (we'll also be asking around)
<slangasek> :)
<pitti> am I back?
<slangasek> didn't know you were gone
<pitti> I fell off the internet for a while, sorry
<heno> that's all from QA
<slangasek> heno, fader: great, thanks much!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team
<pitti> as usual, desktop status is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> TBH I didn't do much in terms of chasing bugs just yet, I just updated their status on the page above
<pitti> for alpha-3, I hope we can land the following structure changes:
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> - pidgin -> empathy
<pitti> - new gdm
<pitti> - symptom based bug reports
<pitti> - perhaps gnome-bluetooth
<slangasek> pitti: bug #341898> should the non-kernel task be closed, in that case?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 341898 in xorg-server "MythTV Frontend does not work with RADEON DRI" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/341898
<superm1> unfortunately i've got a report that the symptoms of bug 341898 have resurfaced on -vesa.  i'm doubtful it's fixed on -ati as upstream still feels that it's a bug in QT ( even though all other drivers work in jaunty ). there is a proposed patch for jaunty that I saw on the mesa mailing list for -ati that i'm going to try.
<pitti> slangasek: ideally yes, but bryce wanted to keep it open for bug reporters to find it more easily
<slangasek> pitti: ah
<slangasek> 376396> Riddell tells me this is fixed (which is why I let the alpha-2 milestone for it slide), but I don't know where or how so I haven't closed the bug report
<pitti> slangasek: ah, thanks
<slangasek> superm1: I guess you'll be following up on that then, to make sure it really gets fixed?
 * pitti isn't well prepared today admittedly, I didn't expect a meeting today
<superm1> slangasek, yeah. i'm going to look at it on -vesa first as it's more common (swrast based drivers), but then i'll be revisiting -ati
<slangasek> so all in all, the set of X reports for this cycle seem fairly mild so far; is that because KMS hasn't been turned on by default yet? :)
<pitti> slangasek: well, we are using UXA/DRI2 by default now
<slangasek> yes
<apw> the next merge, and next kernel will contain a lot of updates, so we may well see more pain after that
<pitti> I guess that already did a good job of replacing old known bugs with slightly fewer new bugs :)
<slangasek> yay, progress. :)
<pitti> but for alpha-3 I want to see KMS by default
<slangasek> agreed
<apw> pitti, ack, i think we agreed to that generally
<apw> i will get with bryce to check we have the x bits and then enable it
<apw> ( for intel )
<pitti> apw: working fine on a lot of mahcines once you add the modprobe.d blurp
<cjwatson> usplash hasn't been updated for KMS yet, I don't think
<pitti> cjwatson: I'm fine with adjusting that
<pitti> it's just moving it out of initramfs into the normal startup sequence
<cjwatson> ok, I had a patch to attempt to run it at the native resolution if KMS was available too
<pitti> (or disabling it completely for the time being, which is the final goal anyway)
<cjwatson> but I had some kind of transient trouble on my machine
<cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/194451/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/194451/
<slangasek> pitti: erm, the examples of places where usplash was to be kept includes things that run from initramfs
<slangasek> (decrypting hard drives)
<cjwatson> yes, it needs to still have the ability to run in the initramfs
<cjwatson> it may not want to do so by default for karmic, but still
<pitti> slangasek: right, but then it will disappear as soon as KMS kicks in
<slangasek> sure
<cjwatson> which means that in such cases we need to start KMS in the initramfs, IMO
<slangasek> sounds like this can probably be taken off-line if needed, though
<cjwatson> and *then* start usplash
<pitti> the details will be discussed with Scott, but for now we could just disable it
<slangasek> anything else for desktop?
<pitti> cjwatson: or that
<pitti> slangasek: not from me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile
<slangasek> dyfet: hello
<dyfet> being a late substitute, I did not come with a specific list of bugs or items in advance, however, I would be happy to cover any items others feels needs to be discussed for mobile.
<dyfet> My area is in arm development, and of course we are concerned with kernel issues there...but I see kernel is after me :)
<AnAnt> Hello
<dyfet> So if people have items related to mobile, feel free to introduce them.
<slangasek> I see armel didn't get a timely d-i build for alpha-2 because of kernel flavor changes; is that something folks knew about, that should have been escalated earlier and given priority for fixing?
<dyfet> That is part of the kernel issues I mentioned :)....
<apw> armel need love in general.  we have a drive to get karmic up to snuff wtf jaunty support right now
<cjwatson> I didn't realise until the build failure, basically - I don't know if I missed a mail about the flavour reduction
<slangasek> only somewhat kernel-y - updating d-i is Foundation's bailiwick
<apw> cjwatson, was that the reducion to one flavour?
<cjwatson> yes
<cjwatson> I don't see anything on -installer
<dyfet> yes
<slangasek> the ftbfs fix was merged into the d-i repo on the 8th, which wasn't too late for us to have had it uploaded; but the upload didn't happen and I didn't notice it myself until much later
<apw> hrm sounds like a process failure our end then.  will feed that back as we have flavour changes coming
<cjwatson> oh, meh, the lack of upload was probably my fault admittedly
<apw> as part of the blueprints implementation
<cjwatson> I think Michael said he had more ports fixing coming and I was waiting for that
<dyfet> I will bring this back for others to discuss in mobile too
<cjwatson> I'll at least arrange for an upload now, sorry about that
<dyfet> I am aware of the issue, not the resolution :)
<slangasek> ok, sounds like we have a handle on what went wrong in this case
<slangasek> everyone please be sure that issues you know of that would block arm from being in future milestones get escalated / addressed
<cjwatson> we still need to sort out the kernel issue that requires us to hardcode kernel versions in cdimage code
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> that's essentially a coordinated kernel/installer change
<cjwatson> (the problem is that the installer udebs are shipped with versions in their vmlinuz etc. filenames, rather unnecessarily
<cjwatson> )
<dyfet> do we have any other arm or mobile issues in general?
<slangasek> dyfet: that means if you guys know ARM is broken and you don't see it getting resolved by the week of the milestone, yell :)  There are a couple dozen images the release team tracks for the milestone, which means it's unfortunately easy to overlook ARM problems until it's too late given that we're also not doing the testing
<cjwatson> I'm not sure I have a bug about it, I think it's basically http://paste.ubuntu.com/194463/ with added coordination
<dyfet> slangasek: fair enough :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: ah, the armel udeb naming is inconsistent with other archs?
<cjwatson> udeb naming is consistent but not the contents
<slangasek> ah
<dyfet> oh?
<cjwatson> lp_archive@cocoplum:/tmp/cjwatson$ dpkg -c /home/lp_archive/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux/kernel-image-2.6.30-8-generic-di_2.6.30-8.9_i386.udeb | grep vmlinuz
<cjwatson> -rw-r--r-- root/root   3703120 2009-06-03 19:23 ./boot/vmlinuz
<cjwatson> is basically the root of the problem
<cjwatson> lp_archive@cocoplum:/tmp/cjwatson$ dpkg -c /home/lp_archive/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux/kernel-image-2.6.30-8-imx51-di_2.6.30-8.9_armel.udeb | grep vmlinuz
<cjwatson> -rw-r--r-- root/root   1894532 2009-06-03 17:27 ./boot/vmlinuz-2.6.30-8-imx51
<apw> cjwatson, sounds like and easy fix at least
<cjwatson> yeah, patch above should fix it if we take care to do that at the same time as installer and cdimage changes
<apw> i could test that change with your changes
<cjwatson> we noticed in jaunty but didn't have time to do anything about it
<apw> for the firmware udebs
<cjwatson> and then the release sort of took over
<slangasek> apw, cjwatson: can be followed up off-line?
<apw> ack
<cjwatson> yep
<cjwatson> I have to go now anyway
<slangasek> ok - thanks :)
<slangasek> [ACTION] apw and cjwatson to follow up on clean-up of armel vmlinuz naming
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw and cjwatson to follow up on clean-up of armel vmlinuz naming
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team
<slangasek> apw: and you're on
<apw> Features wise, the majority of the development items are proceeding well, most specs are either done or nearing completion.  The main deliverables which affect the release are proceeding well.  KMS testing is ongoing, using previews of the Intel and ATI trees, in concert with the x-swat team.  Grub2 testing is going well with almost no failures.  Testing of aufs replacements is also ongoing with test kernels available.  Apparmour development is p
<apw> roceeding with the aim of hitting the .31 merge window.  Arm am51 support is missing, this is being worked as part of the current enablement work should have a timetable by the end of next week.
<slangasek> 9dyfet: thanks)
<apw> You called out two bugs for the kernel:
<slangasek> what's am51?  different than imx51?
<apw> typeo ... amx51
<apw> imx51 jez
<dyfet> imx51? :)
<apw> lp#359338: apparmour and ecryptfs -- there is a workaround, but its not satisfactory.  No plan currently, need to review this jjohansen
<apw> lp#357768: inconsistent NETFILTER configuration -- this has been fixed already and the change is in the 2.6.30-9.10 upload which was pushed up today, i've already updated the bug to reflect reality
<slangasek> great!
<jjohansen> apw: Karmic AppArmor won't have a problem with ecryptfs
<jdstrand> \o/
<apw> excellent news, could you update the bug with that information
<jjohansen> apw: yeah
<slangasek> how soon will .31 show up in karmic?
<apw> well the merge window only opened yesterday, so two weeks before an -rc1
<apw> if it goes to -rc9 we should have a released kernel about 3 weeks before beta by my calculations
<slangasek> but we'll be switched over in karmic soon after rc1?
<apw> we are committed to .31 and will rebase to -rc1 as soon as it drops.  it will take a little longer as -rc1 is a monster
 * slangasek nods
<apw> nothing else from me
<slangasek> anything else for apw from others?
<slangasek> apw: thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team
<slangasek> ttx: heya
<ttx> slangasek: hey!
<ttx> So looking at the lists, there sin't so much bugs in the lists for us
<pitti> apw: yay for rc1 early
<ttx> We already talked about bug 364616
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364616 in ubuntu-release-notes "Wrong iscsistart path in iscsi hook" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364616
<ttx> For bug 326768 I just got a status update from mathiaz
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 326768 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "mysqld_safe thinks mysqld has crashed when it hasn't" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/326768
<ttx> Fix was uploaded for Jaunty but not yet in Karmic
<ttx> Apparently it might not make sense in the context of moving MySQl 5.1 to main
<slangasek> might not make sense, or might not be a priority?
<ttx> He needs to get some input from the debian maintainer
<ttx> might not make sense.
<slangasek> ok
<ttx> there is a comment about how the Jaunty fix is not good at the end of that bug
<ttx> mathiaz still needs to doublecheck that.
<slangasek> alright
<ttx> On the new features front...
<ttx> Specs are currently being reviewed and prioritized
<ttx> Most of them are linked to upstream work-in-progress (Eucalyptus 1.6, Likewise-Open 5.2...)
<ttx> so we expect them to hit later rather than sooner
<ttx> 3 specs are being targeted to alpha3
<slangasek> in before feature freeze?
<ttx> slangasek: sure :)
<ttx> according to Dustin server-karmic-pristine-daily-virt-builds is basically done
<ttx> server-karmic-kvm-qemu-packaging  should be doable
<kirkland> ttx: https://edge.launchpad.net/~qemu/+archive/ppa
<kirkland> ttx: daily builds of qemu and libvirt
<ttx> server-karmic-automated-kvm-testing hasn't started
<ttx> kirkland is confident on 2/3
<ttx> slangasek: which brings the question... how accurate should this blueprint targeting be ?
<ttx> slangasek: things we are reasonably sure to land ? Or that we hope to land ?
<slangasek> ttx: well, targeting them to a milestone makes them fodder for discussion at the release meetings, which is good... they can always be retargeted if necessary
<ttx> slangasek: then we are good :)
<slangasek> plenty of blueprints don't get milestone targets at all
<ttx> Nothing else from server side...
<slangasek> ttx: no other bugs that you think should be escalated/tracked from your end?
<ttx> slangasek: nothing yet.
<slangasek> I find the server team keeps a low profile when it comes to RC bugs, and I'm never sure if that means the software is bug free or if y'all are just hiding your bugs. ;)
<slangasek> anyone else have questions for ttx?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ScottK also sends his regrets, which I only noticed after the meeting had started
<slangasek> I haven't had a chance to catch up with him until now, but I'll follow up out-of-band
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Known regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Known regressions
<slangasek> this is your weekly Public Service Announcement requesting you use the regression-potential tag
<slangasek> now easier than ever to add in LP :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
<MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
<slangasek> we should be winning back some CD size soon, at least on alternates, due to OOo-l10n refactoring
<slangasek> so that should be good
<slangasek> we're pretty much langpack-less for alpha-2, however, due to sizing
<slangasek> so this will need a concerted effort over the course of the cycle to get us back down
<ttx> slangasek: note that we'll have to start playing games with the Server CD as well, if we want Eucalyptus java dependencies to fit in.
<ttx> that's the purpose of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-eucalyptus-fit-on-cd
<slangasek> I know there are some pending rosetta improvements that may help here, but as usual if anyone has any ideas for targets, please shout
<slangasek> ttx: how much space do you need to find?
<ttx> slangasek: if I manage to keep the full JDK and JRE out of the CD we are good.
<slangasek> ok :)
<ttx> slangasek: if not then we are like +40Mb above
 * slangasek nods
<pitti> slangasek: there's still some hope that we can get the soyuz support for stripping gnome help files and putting them into langpacks
<slangasek> pitti: right, that's actually what I meant by "rosetta" above
<pitti> aah
<pitti> and cjwatson has some great ideas how to refactor the language-support-* stuff
<slangasek> apparently I was thinking of the wrong component :)
<pitti> if we could get gimp-help-* off the CD, that woudl give us 20 MB
<slangasek> is that actually something we want to do?
<pitti> gimp is next on the "first against the wall" list
<slangasek> ah
<pitti> but with current l-support we'd still have the English help files by default
<pitti> so it'd only give us 6 MB
 * heno always uses web-based help for gimp
<pitti> with the task-based language-support structure we'd get 26
<pitti> heno: that's another option we took into consideration
<pitti> see this week's desktop team meeting summary
<pitti> slangasek: so in summary, we still have some options up our sleeve
<pitti> I don't want to release karmic without any langpacks at all
<slangasek> indeed
<slangasek> so we'll keep hammering at it
<slangasek> pitti: btw, are translations open for karmic yet?
<pitti> no, unfortuantely not
<slangasek> have you heard an ETA?
<pitti> rosetta is currently in sort of hibernation
<pitti> for sorting out the shared messaging stuff
<pitti> both jaunty and karmic are on ice right now
<slangasek> I remember "June"; I'd have to check my notes to see if we were given anything more exact
<pitti> slangasek: I just know "june"
<pitti> it was supposed to work already, but it broke the firefox translations
<ttx> slangasek: got to go now
<pitti> so I'm not sure there's a precise ETA right now
<slangasek> ttx: ok, thanks
<pitti> slangasek: I'll ask danilo
<slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to follow up with danilo regarding ETA of translation opening for karmic
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up with danilo regarding ETA of translation opening for karmic
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> anything else we need to get out?  floor's open
<pitti> beer for slangasek for a successful alpha-2!
<slangasek> heh :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:23.
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<apw> slangasek, thanks :)
<pitti> thanks all
<lool> slangasek: heya; just a quick note that imx51 is expected broken until we merge updated patches; that's currently targetted at A3 according to Brad; probably th eonly flavor we'll look into for armel will be versatile's netboot images for now, all the others should be dropped as the toolchain doesn't allow them anymore
<slangasek> lool: ok
<lool> slangasek: We will also add flavors in the next alphas, one I think
<slangasek> lool: does the new flavor have a name yet, and will you relay this to stgraber so we get it on the iso tracker in advance?
<lool> It's not clear when the kernel drops will appear, so I can't tell which alpha
<lool> slangasek: I should relay to stgraber; the name is still undecided yet
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-14
<Sinatra> hey people
<Sinatra> Talk!
<lukjad007> Sinatra Lalala!
<leoquant> your allright lukjad007 :P
<leoquant> to put some music in this room
<lukjad007> leoquant I try. ;)
 * leoquant is listening simeon ten holt: canto ostinato
<leoquant> amen
<lukjad007> leoquant Is he an operatic singer?
<leoquant> lol its minimal music
<leoquant> i heard it live in bergen Holland
<lukjad007> leoquant Minimal?
<lukjad007> As in, only voice?
<leoquant> yep
<leoquant> nope 2 piano's and marimba
<leoquant> :P
<lukjad007> Oh
<leoquant> who is sinatra?
<leoquant> a opera guy?
<leoquant> ã
<leoquant> n
<leoquant> ah, a glass of whiskey, a sigaret, and frank...
<lukjad007> leoquant Heehee
<leoquant> cool
<lukjad007> I did Myyyyyyyy waayyyy
<lukjad007> *it
<leoquant> sssttt
<lukjad007> Are you laughing, or hissing?
<leoquant> Watch mootbot
<leoquant> having a bad mood
<leoquant> later luk.....
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-14
<kees> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen: meetin' time?
<jjohansen> hey \o
<sbeattie> o/
<nxvl> \o/
<jdstrand> o/
<kees> woo!  :)
<kees> so, uhm, I'll be publishing a few things this week.  I think they're all embargoed, so, there's not too much to say about it. :)
<mdeslaur> hello!
<kees> oh..
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kees> [topic] stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  stand-up report
<kees> so, uhm, I'll be publishing a few things this week.  I think they're all embargoed, so, there's not too much to say about it. :)
<kees> if I get out from under those things, I'll be trying to nail down a few "high" blueprint items, but we'll see.  :)
<kees> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week, so I'm learning about that.
<kees> awesome, let us know how we can help.
<sbeattie> Beyond that, I'm still involved in interviewing my QA replacemetn, and finishing up a few related tasks around that.
<sbeattie> Otherwise, that's it for me
<kees> okay, thanks.  jdstrand was next.
<kees> (/me goes in meeting-confirmation-order)
 * sbeattie will learn not to raise his virtual hand so quickly...
<kees> hehe
<jdstrand> I will be continuing to test firefox for the upcoming 3.6.4 upgrade in hardy
<nxvl> ///o\
<nxvl> ugh
<kees> jdstrand: btw, great work with that.  the wiki page is impressive, and I've been watching all the q-r-t commits.
<jdstrand> with the latest uploads over the last few day's, hardy firefox should finally be in good shape
<kees> really cool.
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> kees: heh, thanks :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: yeah, great work!
<jdstrand> so the mozilla team is starting to focus on karmic and jaunty now
<jdstrand> now that the tests have been identified and documented, and QRT adjusted, it should be easier to verify those
<jdstrand> epiphany isn't quite as bad as I thought last week
<nxvl> oh yeah, thanks for the wikipage, is awesome
<jdstrand> it does do cert verification, it is just not very clear to the end user that a cert failed
<mdeslaur> oh
<jdstrand> ie, there is only te borken lock
<jdstrand> broken
<kees> hunh
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: we need to move their webkit backport to the latest version
<jdstrand> however, in hardy, the gecko (ie default) epiphany prompted the user with an untrusted cert, like in firefox
<nxvl> jdstrand: but that's because of webkit or independant of that?
<jdstrand> webkit epi doesn't do that, and so it is very easy to miss (I did)
<nxvl> oh gotcha
<jdstrand> however, I marked epiphany as blocked cause it is broken in many ways
<jdstrand> if we use webkit/epi from lucid, it should be adquate, but I'd like to see a patch for a prompt for untrusted certs. upstream is working on it
<jdstrand> beyond that, I need to do the libvirt merge-- it is blocking the server team, if if I can find time, I will get back to koffice
 * jdstrand is done
<kees> mdeslaur is up
<mdeslaur> so, this week I'm on community
<mdeslaur> and I have a few maverick merges to do
<mdeslaur> beyond that, I'll go down the CVE list
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<kees> oh yeah, I've got merges too.  some stuff needing a merge wasn't actually showing up in MoM for some reason (schroot).
<kees> [topic] other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  other business
<kees> okay, anyone else got stuff for the security team?
<kees> sounds like a "no" to me.  :)
<kees> alrighty, that's all then for now.  thanks everyone!
<jdstrand> thanks kees!
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:13.
<sbeattie> thanks!
<jjohansen> yeah, thanks /me loves short meetings :)
<mdeslaur> thanks kees
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-15
<dholbach> mako, Technoviking, popey, pleia2: around?
<popey> o/
<dholbach> JeffWaugh     May I add Ubuntu's Bleeding Edge to PlanetUbuntu?     11 UTC
<dholbach> is the only agenda item - I'm happy to follow up on that via email
<dholbach> hi popey - is there anything else we should talk about?
<popey> not that I can think of
<popey> kubuntu council?
<dholbach> ah yes, I need to follow up on that thread too
<dholbach> mako, Technoviking, popey, pleia2: ^ feel yourself poked about this :)
<dholbach> also I'll talk to mdke about the wiki licensing again
<dholbach> but that's all I can think is on our agenda
<dholbach> "agenda"
<popey> indeed
<dholbach> alright, I'll go and send a few mail, update the team report, etc.
<dholbach> Adjourned. :)
<jussi> wow, that was quick..
<popey> dont blink!
<popey> great, I can go to lunch now :)
<dholbach> popey: bon appetit
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> G'day NCommander
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100615
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100615
<NCommander> ogra: GrueMaster dyfet ping
<NCommander> davidm: morning
 * ogra refuses to take part in a meeting that wasnt announced :P
 * GrueMaster mumbles
<ogra> (you forgot the mail again) :)
 * NCommander coughs 
<NCommander> [topic] Action Items from June 8th, 2010
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from June 8th, 2010
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to discuss build timeout with lamont
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to discuss build timeout with lamont
<NCommander> I discussed it with him, but before we came to a conclusion, the troublesome package (qt4-x11) magically started building again ...
<NCommander> so its fixed, though we're not sure why
<ogra> well, we still need a proper solution for that
<ogra> its not only one package that times out
<NCommander> ogra: lamont has made it so its easier to update the build timeouts then before, so it can be changed with less pain
<ogra> hmm, k
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to poke Keybuk on libnih
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to poke Keybuk on libnih
<NCommander> libnih is no longer FTBFS so I'm dropping this item (I didn't get a chance to talk with him or do any FTBFS work all week)
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<ogra> err
<NCommander> ogra: ?
<ogra> libnih cant build because upstart ftbfs
<ogra> be sure it will return
<NCommander> oh, d'oh. why isn't it on the depwait list then :-/
<NCommander> c/o on that item then
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<NCommander> We're making progress
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html would be more intresting though
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html would be more intresting though
<ogra> given thats our next milestone
<ogra> if we get 4 todos done in that we'll look good for A2
<ogra> 5 would be even better :)
<NCommander> indeed
<NCommander> I refactored and cleane dup the preinstalled d-cd branch last night, so its good for initial merging
<ogra> great
<ogra> give me something to review later today
<GrueMaster> How close are we to having daily images?
<ogra> debian-cd merge, cdimage merge of the publisher scripts
<NCommander> GrueMaster: jasper needs to go in archive, we need an MIR, and I need to finish compressed image support
<ogra> and some jasper fixes
<GrueMaster> ok
<ogra> NCommander, jasper is in the archive since 2 weeks
<NCommander> ogra: d'oh
 * NCommander dons dunce cap
<ogra> but i cant test it without a working kernel
<ogra> (which brings us to next topic i guess)
<NCommander> I thought we had a working OMAP 3 kernel
<GrueMaster> Not that I have seen.
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier)
<ogra> the .34 omap3 kernels did work
<ogra> with the switch to .35 they broke
<mpoirier> i have yet to test.
<mpoirier> should get to it today.
<ogra> GrueMaster, where is the bug you wanted to file yesterday ?
<mpoirier> in any case,
<mpoirier> about SD card ?
<ogra> no
<GrueMaster> 594382
<ogra> bug 594382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 594382 in linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu) "Wake up daisy chain activation failed on omap3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594382
<mpoirier> haven't looked at it.
<mpoirier> still on SD card.
<GrueMaster> Oh, on the sd card.   I'll have to look
<GrueMaster> I don't have it up atm.
<mpoirier> fine, I'm looking at code at this time and can reproduce on my rig.
<GrueMaster> bug 592688
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 592688 in linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu Maverick) "Timing issues with certain SD cards on beagleboard" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/592688
<mpoirier> yes, that is the one.
<GrueMaster> Should I assign those to you?
 * ogra comments on the bug and adds some pointers
<ogra> (the daisy chain one)
<davidm> mpoirier, you need an OMAP3 board correct?
<mpoirier> I suppose you could.
<mpoirier> Well, I could use a bb C4.
<mpoirier> have C2 atm.
<davidm> I'll send a C4 out today
<mpoirier> very well thank you.
<ogra> DavidLevin, do we still have spare XMs ?
<ogra> err
<ogra> davidm, ^^^
<ogra> since i see massive issues there too with the curent omap3 kernel
<davidm> ogra, I have 1 unit now
<ogra> i think lag has one
<davidm> I can ship that if you need it.
<ogra> well, lag, amitk and me each have one unit, depends if mpoirier will work on XM issues too
<davidm> NCommander, give me an action to ship mpoirier a C4 this week please
<ogra> then it would make sense to ship one to him
<NCommander> [action] davidm to ship mpoirier a beagle C4
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to ship mpoirier a beagle C4
<davidm> NCommander, also add ship mpoirier a XM too
<NCommander> [action] davidm to ship mpoirier a XM board
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to ship mpoirier a XM board
<ogra> great
<davidm> I think I'll cry, every time I get hardware I have to ship it out.....
<GrueMaster> heh
<ogra> heh
<ogra> lag, any news about omap4 ?
 * NCommander gives davidm a Babbage board
<lag> News?
<ogra> well, we're waiting for a binary package in teh arm team :)
<lag> I have a working build
<ogra> do you know whats the progress there is ?
<lag> But I didn't build it
<lag> I'm afraid cooloney is your man
<ogra> yeah, i'm more intrested about something in the archive :)
<lag> Nothing as yet
<lag> AFAIK
<ogra> ok
<ogra> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> I have been doing a lot of testing and retesting of the image ogra handrolled last week on various sd cards.
<ogra> GrueMaster, could we have a list of milestoned bugs on the meeting agenda ?
<ogra> that would help a lot with the release meetign preparation and with keeping an easier overview
<GrueMaster> I can add them later today.
<ogra> only the critical and high ones that are milestoned
 * GrueMaster needs coffee still.
<GrueMaster> Ok.
<ogra> should only be a few each week
 * NCommander needs that magicial substance as well
<ogra> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
 * NCommander has nothing to report since he hasn't had time to work on this
<dyfet> Well, there are some items pending from upstream
<dyfet> (glib2.0 and gobject introspection)
<dyfet> I did work on others though as well, and did btrfs-tools
<ogra> did you tak to seb128 about glib ?
<dyfet> Yes
<ogra> *talk
<ogra> ok
<dyfet> Thats why I did not submit my patch for it
<ogra> anything NCommander or i need to sponsor ?
<dyfet> I sponsored with rainct :)
<dyfet> I may have openmpi resolved later today, but I know we need to get kde unstuck
<ogra> can you make sure your name shows up in the uploads ?
<ogra> else sponsored uploads wont help you with MOTU
<dyfet> ok
<dyfet> true :)
<dyfet> I had to pass on glib2 since there was an upstream fix being merged...
<ogra> what about compiz ?
<dyfet> I can look at that later tonight or tomorrow
<ogra> and xscreensave seems to have failed too
<ogra> the rest looks like glib or qt fallout
<dyfet> ok
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra> pretty much covered above already ...
<NCommander> indeed
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<ogra> we need functioning kernels
 * ogra has an AOB topic :)
<ogra> davidm, what do we do with the mailing list now that we're being renamed
<ogra> and also with #ubuntu-mobile
<NCommander> Well, with #ubuntu-mobile, I thinkw e can let it die, we use #ubuntu-arm mostly now
<ogra> shuld #ubuntu-mobile become a redirect to #ubuntu-arm or do we leave it idling
<ogra> NCommander, define "let it die" :)
<NCommander> let it idle
<ogra> just leaving it wont magically make it go away
<davidm> ogra, I need to talk with IS about the mailing list
<ogra> its a registered ubuntu channel
<davidm> ogra, I'd leave #ubuntu-mobile idle I think
<ogra> hmm, k
<davidm>  there is value to it, just not for us right now
<ogra> indeed, but someone needs to be the owner (and make sure to be able to OP when spamboats or trolls show up)
<davidm> hmm, I did not realize it was a registered channel, is #ubuntu-arm registered?
<ogra> i think it is
<ogra> has a chanserv
<davidm> We should likely make sure
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i think persia cared for -arm back when we got it new
<ogra> NCommander, action for me to talk to persia about IRC channels
<NCommander> [action] ogra to talk to persi about IRC channels
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to talk to persi about IRC channels
<NCommander> Can I close out the meeting?
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:35.
<davidm> NCommander, you might take a tad more time to let folks respond to closing the meeting
<NCommander> davidm: did you want to say something? (I can open it again)
<davidm> I used the going 1 - 3 before closing to allow any last minute things
<davidm> NCommander, no not worth opening again
<NCommander> sorry about it
<davidm> makes a new log
<davidm> No worries
<kees> \o
<mdz> o/
<pitti> \o
<Keybuk> o|_|/
<sabdfl> hello all
<mdz> cjwatson: ping
<cjwatson> hi, was just finishing up on the phone with lool
<cjwatson> and that's everyone
<cjwatson> Keybuk: relaxing then?
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:02. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<cjwatson> I don't see anything in the minutes from the last meeting that requires review
<cjwatson> oh, wait
<pitti> FTR, I'm in a parallel mumble OEM meeting, so I'm lagging a bit
<cjwatson>  The board resolved that the issue of ubuntu-drivers many roles should be a medium-priority bug, and should be fed back to the Launchpad team as part of the usual process
<cjwatson> mdz: did you raise that as resolved?
<mdz> cjwatson: I've passed it on to marjo for the next stakeholder meeting
<cjwatson> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Review StableReleaseUpdates policy of contacting the Technical Board regarding regressions (mdz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review StableReleaseUpdates policy of contacting the Technical Board regarding regressions (mdz)
<cjwatson> mdz: go ahead
<mdz> so, we've had a couple of regressions discovered in -proposed recently
<mdz> and the wiki page tells people to email the tech board
<mdz> this doesn't seem like the most helpful point of contact
<mdz> so I would like to suggest that we direct these reports elsewhere
<kees> seems like maybe "If you can't reach anyone else who will take responsibility, then email TB..."
<pitti> right, I usually mark them as regression-proposed/verification-failed to prevent it being copied to -updates
<mdz> for example to the QA team, or the SRU team, or someone like that
<pitti> regressions in -updates are a different story, of course, and we should rather tell more people than fewer
<cjwatson> there's also a rather out-of-date list of individuals in there somewhere
<cjwatson> so, wait
<cjwatson> I think this is actually bad wording on the page
<mdz> pitti: yes, I think the page actually only says to email the TB regarding regressions in -updates
<cjwatson> mdz: you're looking at the bit under "Procedure", right?
<mdz> but people get confused
<cjwatson> I'll take an action to reword that so that it explicitly applies to -updates
<mdz> and I don't think the TB is ideal in that case either
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to reword StableReleaseUpdates to indicate that panic button only applies to -updates
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to reword StableReleaseUpdates to indicate that panic button only applies to -updates
<cjwatson> (pending other discussion - that much is obviously sane, though)
<mdz> agreed
<mdz> does anyone else feel that the panic button could be improved as well?
<cjwatson> I share some of that feeling, just thinking
<cjwatson> the point of the panic button is to quickly escalate to people who can be effective
<cjwatson> in doing things like reverting the update if appropriate, getting IS to block it if appropriate, etc.
<mdz> I take pitti's point that we want to make sure the message gets through, but I'd rather see a clear escalation path than a scattershot approach
<cjwatson> I think it should be a set of people who have upload privileges (i.e. not in general the QA team - no disrespect intended), in order that if it's appropriate they can revert immediately with minimal fuss
<mdz> if we want is quick and accurate action, what we want to see is one person acknowledging and owning the problem and escalating it methodically
<mdz> rather than potentially several people acting at once
<cjwatson> we certainly want to end up with a single owner
<mdz> IRC is pretty good for this
<cjwatson> but it's valuable not to depend on a single person
<mdz> because everyone else can see if someone has already responded
<mdz> emailing the TB...not so much
<cjwatson> which set of people is appropriate?  I would say either ~ubuntu-archive or ~ubuntu-sru
<mdz> I think ~ubuntu-sru
<cjwatson> probably the latter except that it's kind of small.  but maybe that's ok
<cjwatson> we can delegate
<cjwatson> do you think it's appropriate for IRC to be the only method?
<pitti> ~ubuntu-archive would be appropriate, since all of them can use copy-package, lp-remove-package, etc.
<pitti> ~ubuntu-sru has a subset of archive admins
<pitti> and telling IS to block updates is easier for Canonical folks with the emergency phone numbers
<pitti> cjwatson: IRC seems fine to me; a lot of folks (slangasek, you, mdz, me) use proxies and are online 24/7
<cjwatson> so should we have an explicit list of people, rather than a complicated set union/intersection?
<cjwatson> and explain the rationale for that list, so that we can keep it up to date reasonably easily
<mdz> ideally, a bot could handle this, and look up the team membership in LP
<cjwatson> (which the current list hasn't been - AIUI Cody isn't the Xubuntu lead any more)
<pitti> I liked the copy&paste "pitti, cjwatson, slangasek, ...: PANIC" quite a lot
<mdz> so we keep it all in one place
<cjwatson> (and Hobbsee hasn't been around much for a while)
<pitti> it has few technical dependencies (bots, etc.)
<cjwatson> mdz: we can probably do that, it's analogous to !ops
<pitti> and is quick and easy to document and follow
<cjwatson> we could have !sru
<pitti> can this regularly sync team membership from LP without the need to look it up on the fly?
<pitti> I wouldn't rely on the latter
<cjwatson> seems technically possible :-)
<cjwatson> agreed
<mdz> that's all I had to say on the topic
<mdz> the main point being dropping the "email technical-board@" step, since I don't think it adds value
<mdz> there's nothing on there about creating an incident report either, and perhaps there should be
<mdz> cjwatson: since you're on the hook for editing the document anyway, could you remove the email-TB step as well if there are no objections?
<cjwatson> is somebody interested in taking an action to get the bot changes made?
<cjwatson> otherwise it'll devolve to me I guess
<cjwatson> the code appears to be in lp:ubuntu-bots
<pitti> ah, I think I can try spending some time on that
<mdz> that bit is less important, maybe we could just ask for help?
<mdz> it's a bite-sized project someone could step up and do; it doesn't have to be one of us
<cjwatson> I'd rather we get it done and close out the topic
<mdz> fair enough
<lool> (hi, joining)
<cjwatson> [ACTION] pitti to (ask for help to) get !sru added to ubuntu-bots
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to (ask for help to) get !sru added to ubuntu-bots
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to remove "mail TB" step from SRU docs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to remove "mail TB" step from SRU docs
<mdz> move on?
<cjwatson> yep
<cjwatson> doko__: are you here?
<doko__> yes
<Keybuk> doko: do you have any sheep?
<doko> Keybuk: just a robber for you
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Selection of the Linaro GCC for other architectures (doko)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Selection of the Linaro GCC for other architectures (doko)
<doko> cjwatson: how should we proceed? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda has the input about the Linaro GCC and the main question
<cjwatson> so doko brought some concerns about this up over the weekend, and was kind enough to write it up for the agenda
<cjwatson> the question for the TB is what we should be doing regarding the default Ubuntu toolchain
<cjwatson> actually, I think this is doko's decision as maintainer, but he'd like advice
<lool> I didn't have the time to prepare anything for the meeting myself, but I wanted to share that I think the concerns are valid one and that it's more important for Linaro that we take a decision one way or the other than deferring too much; we offered support on all architectures, but obivously we have to balance that against time spent on further developments
<mdz> I don't have context on this; did I miss something on the mailing list?
<lool> *ones
<Keybuk> does the CodeSourcery GCC offer advantages for non-ARM platforms?
<cjwatson> mdz: afraid not, this came up over the last couple of days and hasn't hit the list
<lool> mdz: we had an UDS session on that, but it came up recently that we had not decided on the final list of architectures and that it was starting to get late
<lool> I think the UDS session called for testing on x86 and arm, and was reserved about usage on other arches
<kees> if the linaro patchset is only applied to the armel build of gcc, it seems like that minimizes the potential "alienation".
<doko> the CS changes include some middle-end changes and changes to backends. the ones we may be interested in are the intel archs and powerpc
<cjwatson> kees: doko and lool have both indicated to me that they're reasonably content with that option, and I'm inclined to agree, although there are of course risks associated with having architectures be different from each other
<cjwatson> there are risks with every option though :-)
<doko> I do not want to touch archs which are not actively supported in the CS GCC
<lool> Yes; the smallest maintenance burden is when the toolchain is the same on all arches obviously; in any case, we can do some tests on intel even if Linaro patches aren't used on intel in Ubuntu
<kees> cjwatson: right, it just seems like that one contains the risk a bit more.  doing archive rebuilds is very expensive.
<sabdfl> us using the CS patches for all arch's would help accelerate their upstreaming
<cjwatson> lool: smallest> well, depends on how you look at it, the ability to forward patches upstream to the FSF and have them not be rejected is a maintenance win too
<lool> cjwatson: Linaro also forwards patches upstream though
<sabdfl> and if there's an easy way to get a package built on x86 without the patches, we have a good way to triage toolchain/CS issues
<doko> the non-technical question I see is, how is Ubuntu seen if it uses a toolchain not directly from upstream
<lool> cjwatson: it's our mission to upstream this stuff too, so we could in the end help upstreaming
<cjwatson> my concern about using the CS patches for all architectures is that, if push comes to shove, CS's priorities for Linaro are going to be ARM
<cjwatson> I realise that they and Linaro have offered support otherwise
<cjwatson> but I can't see how it can be top priority if there's a crunch
<sabdfl> doko: i can see it providing an easy excuse for someone to dismiss a bug report from us, but those people will likely find other reasons if we don't give them this one
<kiko> cjwatson, possibly -- but they do maintain the x86 side of the toolchain as well, just to be clear
<cjwatson> kiko: not exclusively
<cjwatson> they certainly help to do so
<lool> doko: this was brought up at the UDS session, one thing which we mentionned, albeit not a full answer, is that we should still provide FSF packages in Ubuntu (gcc-snapshot being one)
<doko> cjwatson: not exactly, having an "interest" and providing support is different
<kiko> cjwatson, no, I mean that they have x86 customers
<lool> sabdfl: we provide gcc-snapshot though
<kiko> so they do maintain it as well
<cjwatson> FAOD I am not questioning either CS's skills or good faith
<lool> it does make things harder for e.g. doko because he has to reproduce an issue with a FSF toolchain first, but he might have to do that anyway?
<sabdfl> lool: right, so it's always possible to test if the CS work is the root cause of an issue
<doko> lool: yes, we'll have a GCC version which is close to the upstream branches
<lool> doko: Do you currently test with a vanilla toolchain before reporting upstream?
<cjwatson> sabdfl: that's time-consuming work in an already time-consuming process, of course
<cjwatson> I wonder if we should take a slightly different approach
<sabdfl> we face this same story on kernel and elsewhere, anywhere we deviate from pristine upstream
<sabdfl> cjwatson: yes, i understand that
<lool> Yes, albeit the difference is substantial
<cjwatson> package both the FSF gcc and the CS branch as separate packages
<cjwatson> then, if there's a problem with one, a package can build-depend on and compile with the other
<sabdfl> how expensive are rebuilds?
<cjwatson> assuming that ABIs haven't skewed too much
<cjwatson> sabdfl: very!
<doko> lool: yes, depends on the situation. currently testing with both debian and ubuntu and trunk before reporting bugs
<cjwatson> at least in Ubuntu
<mdz> cjwatson: I guess I took that as a given
<lool> cjwatson: Yes, just like gcc-4.5/gcc-4.4, gcc-linaro-4.4/4.5
<mdz> that if we are going to use two different toolchains, we would package them separately
<cjwatson> mdz: it wasn't doko's original proposition, but I'm interested how he feels about it
<doko> cjwatson: well, there's still the problem of overlapping packages (runtime libs)
<cjwatson> sabdfl: full rebuilds in Ubuntu are significant mirror-losing events
<cjwatson> doko: mm, the runtimes concern me less really although I can see why we might want to think about them ...
<lool> mdz: the options so far was to apply a Linaro patch in the gcc-4.4 build
<sabdfl> cjwatson: sorry, i meant private rebuilds not hammering-the-archive
<lool> there were other options, but basically resulting in the same
<lool> (e.g. have gcc-4.4 on some arches, and gcc-linaro-4.4 on others)
<cjwatson> sabdfl: oh, well, they monopolise PPA builders for the best part of a week IIRC
<lool> doko: So in a way, you already have the pain of testing with a trunk toolchain, that doesn't change; it just makes it more likely that you hit branch specific bugs
<sabdfl> if it's a question of more builders, that's relatively cheap
<cjwatson> and for Linaro we're designing for them, although I imagine we still don't want to do that too often
<cjwatson> or more often than necessary
<sabdfl> doko: when you say trunk, you mean tip?
<mdz> lool: I would prefer that we package both, and let both build on both architectures, to make it easier to isolate bugs
<doko> sabdfl: yes
<cjwatson> doko: how tight is the binding between g++-4.4 and libstdc++6-4.4-dev
<cjwatson> ?
<cjwatson> mdz: doko's right though, got to pick one or the other to win libgcc1
<lool> mdz: It's possible albeit expensive, for buildd time and for the maintenance of the forked debian/
<cjwatson> and libstdc++6
<doko> cjwatson: it should be merged
<cjwatson> doko: I'm not sure what that means
<lool> mdz: but I see the value in your point
<mdz> cjwatson, doko: are the runtime libraries significantly different?
<kiko> sabdfl, cjwatson: one thing I asked yesterday, and that I'd like to reiterate, is that we at the moment we don't have the results of a test rebuild back, so we're not very well-informed as to the impact of the toolchain change
<lool> Sufficiently that we need to include the CS patchset in gcc-4.5
<mdz> lool: why buildd time? the toolchain doesn't change that much
<doko> mdz: the only concern is libstdc++6, but we already have this problem with the 4.4/4.5 overlap
<mdz> (that often, rather)
<kiko> sabdfl, cjwatson: so while we should be careful to consider things now, we could postpone making a decision until we do have a rebuild as evidence
<lool> mdz: No, but the time to deploy a fix across all toolchains is longer; toolchain build time is very long, on armel notably
<sabdfl> kiko: we could ack CS patches subject to "no disasters in the rebuild review"
<kiko> sabdfl, right
<lool> doko: The runtime opts are also very important
<cjwatson> I'd like us to explore doko's question of the community impact of using the CS patches as well, when we're ready
<mdz> lool: fair point
<doko> kiko: yes, we only have test packages since the weekend
<kiko> doko, great job getting them ready! :)
<mdz> we need to look at this as an ongoing concern, not a one-time decision
<cjwatson> I don't agree with sabdfl that people who reject bugs on those grounds would reject them anyway; I've certainly been the guy who rejects bugs on the grounds that it's really better for them to be handled somewhere else
<cjwatson> and I don't agree that that's an ipso facto unreasonable thing to do
<lool> kiko: I would be careful not deferring too much, as noted earlier, as toolchain should get early in maverick
<kiko> lool, I know, but a test rebuild is the minimal due diligence, do you not agree?
<mdz> having a current CS toolchain in the archive at all times seems like a win
<mdz> that's something of value beyond just building our packages
<lool> kiko: I tend to think we should have one for x86 but can't afford to wait for an armel one
<doko> we could have as well a decision for this cycle only (gcc-4.4) and revisit the question for mav+1 and gcc-4.5
<lool> This is compensated by the battery of test which Linaro does before releasing (which is CodeSourcery's)
<sabdfl> doko: +1
<kiko> lool, I'm not thinking of an armel rebuild! just x86
<cjwatson> so if it's for this cycle only, in Ubuntu, then my inclination is strongly in favour of saying that we have already passed the point where we should have essentially settled on our core toolchain
<lool> doko: We do want the Linaro patches in 4.5 though, especially the runtime ones; I'm happy to revisit the decision of Linaro patches in the default ubuntu-n compiler though
<sabdfl> cjwatson: there's no version change, which is the primary question
<cjwatson> at least for architectures other than armel, which I agree is special in many ways
<mdz> cjwatson++
<cjwatson> sabdfl: I think the version is misleading
<lool> kiko: We can take a decision including the outcome of the rebuild
<doko> lool: the armel decision is independent from that one; I'd like to wait until I get feedback from CS about the merged packages first
<lool> doko: (I'm not exactly sure which issue you relate to)
<cjwatson> switching from 4.4 to 4.4+CS requires just as much diligence as switching from 4.4 to 4.5, IMO - the presence of the string "4.4" in the former shouldn't distract too much from the fact that it's still a major change
<doko> lool: having the CS patchset applied for armel
<kiko> cjwatson, doko: when I spoke to mark mitchell about this, I made it clear we'd expect him to cover fallout from cross-architectural problems in using the toolchain, and I'm ready to hold him accountable
<sabdfl> another way to look at it is that having the CS folks focused on our toolchain broadens the eyeballs we have on GCC substantially
<lool> cjwatson: Yes, it's a large change, smaller than 4.4 -> 4.5, but still a large change necessiting a rebuild
<sabdfl> they are very good, by all accounts
<kiko> or, said more nicely, that I'd be sure they were plugged in and paying attention to the bugs found and provided fixes in the time we need them
<lool> doko: Sorry, I got confused in the discussion and don't understand the point  :-(
<sabdfl> it smooths the way for their work to get upstream mainline too
<cjwatson> as I said, I raise no question regarding the CS folks' skills or good faith
<mdz> can we agree to rule out changing the x86 toolchain such that a rebuild is required in maverick?
<sabdfl> we're still quite early in the cycle
<cjwatson> sabdfl: (does it really?  CS already has folks on the GCC steering committee, I'm not sure how much another customer in fact helps)
<lool> kiko: MarkM will do that as long as long as it's in the Linaro goals, and it will be time-bound, because we have other Linaro goals to achieve
<sabdfl> not many customers are as high profile or build as much
<doko> mdz: I can't think of changes that absolutely would require a rebuild
<mdz> doko: lool just said that this would necessitate a rebuild
<kiko> lool, no, he'll do it as part of the agreement to use his toolchain as default for us.
<cjwatson> mdz: test rebuild
<mdz> doko: the CS patches, that is
<lool> mdz: it is a good idea to do a test rebuild
<lool> mdz: not to rebuild the Ubuntu archives
<kiko> lool, well, that's how I've presented it, anyway
<lool> mdz: that is, I would rather do a test rebuild before uploading such a makor change
<cjwatson> kiko: what will happen if there is a time conflict between Linaro/ARM work and Ubuntu/(say)x86 work?
<lool> *major
<cjwatson> which will win?
<mdz> lool: oh, that's something different then
<doko> mdz: right, it requires a test rebuild outside the archive, before the changed GCC is a candidate for upload
<lool> mdz: No rebuild is needed, the ABI is compatible, and upwards
<mdz> doko: yes, naturally
<lool> It's a different story if we need to roll it out, that might be worth covering
<kiko> cjwatson, we'll make sure CS fixes the critical bugs
<lool> doko: Do you think we would need to rebuild binaries if we were to rollback *out* of the CS patches on x86?
<mdz> doko: but what about testing that those rebuilt packages actually work?
<kiko> cjwatson, I'm saying this because I know that they care about the state of their toolchain across architectures
<kiko> cjwatson, and they will appreciate the additional testing
<doko> kiko: yes, I may be overcautious, but there may be gap if Linaro/CS runs out of time
<kiko> doko, we'll make it work
<cjwatson> kiko: when I talked to them in person last week, they did say that there had been very little field testing of native builds on any architecture
<cjwatson> and that essentially it was just the standard test suite
<kiko> cjwatson, all the more reason for them to pay attention to problems we find
<lool> it's true, they mostly do cross-compilers and cross-compilation, but I'd be inclined to think it's less likely to break this way around
<cjwatson> agreed, but nevertheless it gives me concerns regarding a late deployment of the toolchain on Ubuntu x86
<mdz> the more I hear, the more strongly I feel that the toolchains for x86 and ARM should be decoupled
<doko> mdz: yes, we could do a test CD rebuild from the rebuilt packages
<cjwatson> and I have to stress that, this is late
<kiko> cjwatson, look, this is absolutely a bit of a leap of faith; I'd rather we had the results of a test rebuild to be talking facts instead of speculation
<cjwatson> certainly, and I think this will be an easier discussion for maverick+1 anyway
<lool> I think we could take a decision depending on how good the rebuilds are
<cjwatson> (not that I'm saying we should defer the whole discussion to then)
<cjwatson> mdz: for maverick, my leanings are also in that direction, at the moment
<cjwatson> I agree that a test rebuild will be useful information
<kiko> I can't evaluate the cost it has maintaining two separate toolchain packages in the archive for the architectures; I think it's painful but I'm not sure how much. so that needs to be balanced out with the risk of adopting something else -- and without a test rebuild we can't really say how much risk there is
<kiko> how long will it take to run a rebuild, doko? is it running already?
<mdz> kiko: my gut feel is "less painful than the tug-of-war between x86 and ARM"
<doko> I think a test rebuild for main should be doable until the next TB meeting (not sure about ARM)
<lool> kiko: Note that the pain is present in any case because I understand some Ubuntu arches will not use the Linaro patches
<lool> and in any case doko would like to keep the option open of moving out of hte patches
<lool> (finally Debian and Ubuntu patches are very similar and doko is maintaining the Debian patches, but that's another story)
<kiko> doko, I really only care about an x86 rebuild
<doko> kiko: will start this as soon as I get some feedback of some regressions in the GCC testsuite, which were seen after applying the patchset
<mdz> kiko: why?
<kiko> mdz, because it is the fastest way to obtain more information
<kiko> and I hate deciding without adequate information  :-)
<doko> I worked through all Ubuntu patches today with CS, they are mostly complementary
<kiko> doko, have they replied to you yet?
<kiko> oh, that s great to hear
<doko> kiko: had a 5h phone call today
<mdz> kiko: it would only give us information about x86, which is the least interesting bit. we already have an adequate toolchain for x86 for maverick.
<cjwatson> doko: complementary> as in, no serious conflicts?
<kiko> mdz, I don't know what adequate means, but we should have more information to decide on whether to fork the toolchain or not.
<mdz> kiko: a rebuild will not tell us what this decision will mean for the next four months
<doko> we should be able to start a test rebuild later this week.
<lool> mdz: We're not trying to get many improvements in the maverick toolchain, but using the same toolchain on x86/armel/ppc would have a benefit, especially if we drop ia64/sparc
<mdz> kiko: as I understand this discussion, forking the toolchain is inevitable. it's just a question of how we manage the fork.
<doko> cjwatson: yes, and many arm patches we applied for karmic and lucid not in the CS changes
<kiko> mdz, to me that wasn't clearly decided -- and I'd rather we didn't decide until we had more information
<mdz> kiko: if you were happy with the current toolchain, we wouldn't be here right now :-)
<kiko> but if we can't wait for a week then I guess your option is definitely the safest
<mdz> I am not opposed to waiting a week
<cjwatson> a week will put the toolchain change after alpha-2
<cjwatson> (in practice)
<mdz> but I also don't expect the result of a rebuild to have any significant impact on this decision
<kiko> even in the edge cases of zero failures or millions of failures? ;-)
<mdz> some things will build correctly, some will fail to build, and others will build but may not work
<lool> doko: 16:44 < lool> doko: Do you think we would need to rebuild binaries if we were  to rollback *out* of the CS patches on x86?
<lool> doko: I wonder if it's expensive for us to rollback to the FSF toolchain if we chose the Linaro one on x86
<mdz> kiko: I don't like the idea of pushing CS on x86 even if everything happens to build OK
<kees> me either
<mdz> this is a decision we have to live with; we can't base it only on what happens today
<mdz> (even if we could test it more thoroughly)
<doko> lool: currently I don't see why we would need to do so
<lool> Ok, so it seems we would be taking a moderate risk if we need to roolback the toolchain, that's good to know
<cjwatson> we have only a few minutes left, and we seem to have settled into fixed positions
<doko> it's a bit more expensive to backout gcc-4.5
<cjwatson> doko: do you think you have what you need here, or is there anything else you want to specifically discuss?
<sabdfl> x86 CS is not a high risk
<doko> cjwatson: I think I have the feedback I did want to have. will prepare a summary for tomorrow. and doing the test rebuild for a final decision
<sabdfl> the risks appear to be with sparc or ia64
<sabdfl> which are being deprecated
<mdz> sabdfl: you sound pretty confident in that
<sabdfl> based on comments here, yes
<doko> which we *hope* are being deprecated ;)
<lool> sabdfl: that's correct, albeit CS wants its source to be correct and I've asked them to provide support even on these arches on a best effort basis
<lool> (I'm commenting on ia64/sparc)
<cjwatson> my feeling is that x86 CS is about as high a risk as switching to 4.5 - and that feels risky at this point in the release cycle too, TBH
<doko> cjwatson: well, it should not introduce package build failures which need sourceful uploads, as 4.5 would require
<mdz> and the benefit would be negligible
<cjwatson> I'm going to have to cut us off here due to time.  I suggest that further discussion move to #ubuntu-devel or ubuntu-devel@lists
<doko> mdz: well, the benefit would be better code generation even on ix86. I'll follow up on ubuntu-devel
<cjwatson> there is one article on the mailing list which probably needs attention by somebody, namely https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-June/000281.html
<mdz> I also noticed in checking the mailing list that it is flooded with spam
<cjwatson> but we probably don't have time to look into it now, if anybody has a moment please follow it up
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to find out about spam-cleaning technical-board@ archives with IS
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to find out about spam-cleaning technical-board@ archives with IS
<mdz> the bug in that message is bug 586497
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 586497 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Lucid) "kpackagekit install security update in automatic mode without authorization" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586497
<cjwatson> I haven't been seeing the same spam by mail but I suppose spamassassin could be filtering it here
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<cjwatson> just the ubuntu-drivers bug discussed earlier
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<kees> I think I'm up next to chair, is that right?
<cjwatson> I make it kees
<kees> done and done.
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:03.
<mdz> thanks cjwatson
<cjwatson> sorry for the slight overrun, all
<kees> thanks!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<sabdfl> cheers all
<JFo> o/
<mpoirier> mpoirier \o
 * apw bounces in
<cnd> /\o/\
 * cnd turned into a spider
 * smb is there
 * apw stamps on cnd
<kamal> o/
<JFo> I thought you were doing dips cnd :)
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:59. The chair is bjf.
<jjohansen> \o
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics: (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics: (JFo)
 * cking here
<JFo> Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (1 bugs, 9 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (29 (up 24)) ====
<JFo>  * 10 linux kernel bugs (up 9)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (83 across all packages (up 33)) ====
<JFo>  * 17 linux kernel bugs (up 14)
<JFo> === Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 13 blueprints
<JFo> *** NOTE: This listing includes HWE Blueprints***
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:117 (down 5 from last week) ====
<JFo>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on
<JFo>  * Breakdown by status:
<JFo>    http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-apparmor
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-apparmor
<jjohansen> slow progress - updated compatibility code, need to do testing and send out pull request when done
<lag> Oh, I missed the hellos
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-firewire-stack (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-firewire-stack
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-firewire-stack (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-firewire-stack
<manjo> nothing to report
<manjo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-misc (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-misc
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-misc (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-misc
<apw> The debian commonisation is progressing well, both Karmic and Lucid branch sets have been converted over.  There is some resistance to applying these changes to Karmic currently as they are very hard to review and seen as perhaps outside the SRU process; discussions are ongoing but we may have to abandon doing this for Karmic.  We have also mothballed a no longer used branch in Karmic, the netbook branch.
<apw> ..
<cnd> does this lift a hold on lucid patches against mvl-dove?
<bjf> i believe that eric was waiting on this, so it should be a lift
<smb> I pulled the tree that eric gave cnd
<cnd> smb, for the LSP 5.2.1?
<smb> So the tree should be ok now but the upload is waiting
<smb> Yes
<bjf> did he send out a new one for review after I NAK'd the last one?
<smb> bjf, I thought it was a revised one
<bjf> ok, don't remember seeing it
<cnd> if not, I can rebase and find any compile failures and send a fix
<smb> bjf, But I must admit he was confusing me quite a bit with all the pull request
<cnd> ..
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<tgardner> The LTS backport kernel and meta packages at http://ppa.launchpad.net/kernel-ppa/ppa/ubuntu are up to
<tgardner> 2.6.35-3.4 (tracking the latest maverick kernel release). All appears well. In fact, its much better then
<tgardner> the previous 2.6.35-rc2 based release which had some memory corrupter bugs.
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<jjohansen> pv-on-HVM drivers don't help us out :(
<jjohansen> Karmic pv-ops kernel on EC2 is more flaky than it was in the Karmic cycle (only successfully booted in 1 of 4 availability zones)
<jjohansen> Lucid pv-ops is boot in 2 of 4 availability zones on last test
<jjohansen> Maverick wasn't booting at all under 2.6.35.2, have tried it with the latest config changes made pulled forward from Lucid and haven't tried .3 yet
<jjohansen> Current plan is revert to full Xen topic branch, and get other work items done and return to pv-ops kernel in a few weeks.
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-tracing-support (cnd)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-tracing-support
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-tracing-support (cnd)
<apw> jjohansen, wasn't there a third option?
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-tracing-support
<jjohansen> apw: yeah the third option was full xen
<apw> ok a middle option :)  the drivers only ?
<cnd> Patch sent upstream for perf probe under review. I've packaged trace-cmd and kernelshark, sent three patches upstream for them (2 trace-cmd, 1 kernel). Will work on getting them into Maverick.
<jjohansen> right the drivers are the pv-ops-HVM
<cnd> ..
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review
<ogasawara> I pushed 3 of our sauce patches upstream which just removed some
<ogasawara> duplicate device id's.  I've also dropped 2 more sauce patches which
<ogasawara> added MODULE_ALIAS for the Dell WMI module and the other which sent
<ogasawara> events on data interface as well as master interface for the hostap
<ogasawara> driver.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-union-mounts (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-union-mounts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-union-mounts (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-union-mounts
<tgardner> ogasawara, you got some pushback on one of those removals. what came of that?
<apw> Waiting on testing from Foundations from updated kernels.  Need to get the tools updated for this and uploaded to the same PPA, hoping to have those tommorrow.
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> tgardner: hrm, I didn't see any reply.
<ogasawara> tgardner: I'll have to look into it
<tgardner> ogasawara, the one with duplicate IDs
<ogasawara> tgardner: I'm not subscribed to the upstream list so I wonder if I wasn't CC'd on the reply?
<tgardner> ogasawara, likely
<tgardner> ..
<apw> google is your friend
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (jfo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (jfo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<JFo> * Conversation with the Forums people has begun, they are talking internally to gather some thoughts on our proposal concerning the discussion between us to improve the quality of the information on the forums. They will be gettting back with me late this week or next week and we will go from there.
<JFo> * I have tested the SHA1 gathering script several times now. It will likely not be as useful as i thought due to the fact that the janitor puts a comment containing the SHA1 of the fix that solves an issue in bugs that potentially have multiple tasks, thus giving us false positives. I am working to define the problem before I see if we can modify the script to react to those comments appropriately.
<JFo> * I sent out the initial e-mail to get an idea of the interest level for a Kernel Triager Summit. Based on the response, I will begin the further planning items needed to make this a reality.
<JFo> ..
<manjo> JFo, are we having community bug days ?
<JFo> that information is coming up manjo
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<apw> Waiting on testing from Foundation from updates kernels.  Expecting preliminary feedback on Wednesday.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<cking> Added the following functionality to the firmware test suite:
<cking>   Battery Test: Exercise CPU to drain quicker
<cking>   Kernel Version checking
<cking>   Include Blank Test Template
<cking>   Re-organise klog scanning, added more intelligence
<cking>   Logging: Add line numbering, test failure levels, summary of failures, improved automatic text formatting
<cking>   Add --no-s3 --no-s4 options to ignore suspend/hibernate tests
<cking>   Check for redundant _OSI(Linux)
<cking>   HPET sanity check vendor ID
<cking>   Syntax check SSDT tables
<cking>   Virtualisation extention checks
<cking>   Add in MCFG test
<cking>   General bug fixing and code tidying
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We've rebased to 2.6.35-rc3 which should be available as of
<ogasawara> linux-2.6.35-3.4.  Please test.
<ogasawara> Alpha 2 is Thurs July 1 (ie ~2weeks from today) so make sure you're on
<ogasawara> track with any work items that need doing as we're currently above the
<ogasawara> trend line in our Alpha 2 burn down chart:
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> Also keep in mind that if you have any patches which you want to land
<ogasawara> in the Alpha2 kernel, they need to be sent to the kernel-team ml and
<ogasawara> have garnered the appropriate Ack's *before* Fri Jun 25.  I'll send an
<ogasawara> email reminder this Friday.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<smb> Dapper:      2.6.15-55.84  (security)
<smb> Hardy:       2.6.24-28.70  (security)
<smb>              2.6.24-28.71  (waiting for approval)
<smb> Jaunty:      2.6.28-19.61  (security)
<smb> Karmic:      2.6.31-22.60  (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-22.61  (waiting for approval)
<smb>  - mvl-dove  2.6.31-214.28 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-214.29 (waiting for approval)
<smb>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-112.28 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-112.29 (waiting for approval)
<smb>  - ec2       2.6.31-307.15 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-307.16 (waiting for approval)
<smb> Lucid:       2.6.32-22.36  (security)
<smb>              2.6.32-23.37  (proposed)[4]  8/39 verifications done (+ 8)
<smb>  - LBM       2.6.32-23.37  (proposed)[1]  1/ 3 verifications done (+ 1)
<smb>  - mvl-dove  2.6.32-205.18 (security)
<smb>              2.6.32-206.19 (waiting for approval)
<smb>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-608.14 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-608.15 (waiting for approval)
<smb>  - ti-omap   2.6.33-501.7  (security)
<smb>              2.6.33-502.8  (waiting for approval)
<smb>  - qcm-msm   2.6.31-802.4  (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-802.5  (waiting for approval)
<smb>  - ec2       2.6.32-306.11 (security)
<smb>              2.6.32-307.12 (waiting for approval)
<smb> As we found out today there is resistance on the current changes in Karmic
<smb> which only affect the build infrastructure. This needs to be resolved
<smb> before the uploads will be accepted into proposed.
<smb> ..
<JFo> that list is getting huge
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo> 23 Maverick Bugs (up 8)
<JFo> 950 Lucid Bugs (up 4)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo>   * 8 maverick bugs (up 1)
<JFo>   * 223 lucid bugs (down 11; to be converted to regression-release)
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 30 lucid bugs (up 5)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (down 3)
<JFo>   * 4 jaunty bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 1 hardy bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 136 lucid bugs (up 8)
<JFo>   * 48 karmic bugs (down 2)
<JFo>   * 19 jaunty bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (down 1)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 1 lucid bug (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> please note that these numbers may be a bit off due to a bug we introduced in the last update of the expired script.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> I neglected to announce the Bug Day scheduled for today last week due to travel for the SELF conference. That Bug Day will be held next week. The next bug day will be next Tuesday. We will be focusing on working Confirmed bugs and getting them to either Incomplete, by way of testing or information requests, or Triaged based on the completeness of the bug. My goal is to work through all of the Confirmed bugs to get them in the correct state and work 
<JFo> ut the best method for them based on conversation with Andy last week. I am happy with the progress of the Team bug day so far. I'd like to hold this again this week. I am open to continuing the two half days on Friday and Monday again if there is no objection.
<JFo> Are you all finding the half day Kernel team days on friday and monday useful?
<JFo> rather still finding them useful
<jjohansen> well I like it
<JFo> ..glad to hear it jjohansen
<JFo> I think it is better than taking up a whole day
<apw> i've not managed to help with either of them so far, though i think the format is sane ..
 * smb unfortunately did not find time for those, yet
<JFo> I understand
<cking> JFo, not yet been able to find time for this time around
<JFo> I think i'd like for them to be set on the schedule so that everyone knows when they are and we are consistently having them
<JFo> cking, I understand :)
<tgardner> JFo, lets keep doing it in order to see of the idea gets traction.
<JFo> tgardner, will do
<tgardner> s/of/if/
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<ogasawara> o/ (I've got 2 items)
<bjf> ogasawara, go
<ogasawara> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-xorg-gpu-freeze-reports
<ogasawara> There are 3 Alpha2 work items assigned to the canonical-kernel-team in
<ogasawara> that blueprint.
<phunge0> o/
<ogasawara> sconklin, could I persuade you to own those 3 work items? It looked like
<ogasawara> you and apw attended this UDS session but apw seems to have enough
<ogasawara> Alpha2 work items on his plate.
<sconklin> looking
<ogasawara> while you're looking, the other item was https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-m-uefi-support
<ogasawara> This also has an Alpha2 work item assigned to canonical-kernel-team,
<ogasawara> "Investigate situation with Intel graphics drivers on EFI".
<ogasawara> cking or tgardner, did either of you attend this UDS session?  Can I get
<ogasawara> one of you to own this work item?
<sconklin> ogasawara: sure, I can take those
<cking> ogasawara, nope, it clashed with something else I had to attend
<ogasawara> sconklin: thanks, much appreciated.
<tgardner> ogasawara, I volunteer cking as he's already involved with EFI
<sconklin> I'll edit the blueprint now
<manjo> can we get some feed back on the firewire stack switch? I think its a matter of blacklisting old modules and whitelisting new ones
 * cking will pick it up then 
<ogasawara> cking: thanks
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> phunge0, go
<phunge0> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/585092
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 585092 in linux (Ubuntu) "tmpfs umount slowdown" [Medium,Triaged]
<phunge0> Could I get some feedback on prospects for this bug in lucid?  Upstream devs think they have a real fix to the problem (2nd try), it's been posted to lkml but won't be merged until 2.6.35-rc4 at earliest (when Linus gets back from vacation).  I'm wondering if backporting it would be considered feasible.  If not I'm hoping the workaround could be revisited, it has serious performance downsides.
<phunge0> Please let me know if there's someone specific I should be talking to.
<tgardner> phunge0, is this so critical that you can't wait 2 weeks for it to show up in due course?
<smb> I believe last time they had a fix they reverted it due to hangs in xfs
<bjf> phunge0, it looks like we are waiting to see what upstream wants to do about it
<smb> But it was one of the things I wanted to investigate
<phunge0> ok
<kamal> o/
<apw> phunge0, do we have a poninter to the outstanding conversation on that
<phunge0> it's not critical, but my firm was hoping to migrate to lucid with the SRU
<phunge0> http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/6/10/259
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/6/10/259
<apw> to the 'new' fix?  make it easier for us to track when it hits maverick so we can test
<apw> phunge0, thanks
<phunge0> and this blocks us
<apw> phunge0, us ?
<phunge0> this is the patchset http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/6/10/175
<phunge0> my firm, sorry
<tgardner> phunge0, it remains to be seen if Jens fix is gonna do the trick
<apw> phunge0, thats like 13 patches!
<tgardner> apw, maybe we can get it via stable :)
<apw> tgardner, fingers crossed :)
<phunge0> yeah, this is linus indicating that it might be acceptable for 2.6.35
<smb> We might but that will certainly take time
<apw> cirtainly we should help test it in 35
<phunge0> http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/6/10/285
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/6/10/285
<apw> ..
<phunge0> but he pushed back
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> manjo, you have the floor
<manjo> blacklist ohci1394 sbp2 eth1394 dv1394 raw1394 video1394 and whitelist firewire-ohci firewire-sbp2 firewire-core firewire-net in /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-firewire.conf. As far as I can see this is the only real change that needs to happen to make this switch.
<manjo> I emailed ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-kernel
<apw> 'this switch' ?
<manjo> and I don't have any response yet
<bjf> apw, <manjo> can we get some feed back on the firewire stack switch? I think its a matter of blacklisting old modules and whitelisting new ones
<manjo> ie switch from old firewire stack to new stack
<apw> so i'd recommend you ask on #ubuntu-devel about this as well
<tgardner> manjo, did your email include a patch?
<apw> there are some old hands there who can probabally help guide us as to the next step
<manjo> tgardner, no, I thought we talked about this a while back and
<manjo> foundations need to make that change ?
<tgardner> manjo, we can do it as well. we have before
<manjo> I am happy to send a patch
<manjo> tgardner, to ubuntu-kernel ?
<apw> manjo, do we have the alternate userspace stack available ?
<tgardner> I want some test results too.
<apw> (i thought there was one if you switched?)
<manjo> yep we have both moduels built as of now
<tgardner> manjo, yep, ubuntu-kernel list
<apw> manjo, i meant the userspace integration, does it work with both ?
<apw> s/both/either
<tgardner> apw, thats what I meant by test results
<manjo> apw, there was a bug for which the switch was tested
<manjo> but I can send a patch with test info
<tgardner> manjo, just put the results in the bug
<apw> sounds good then ...
<JFo> I think we need a gneral CFT on the new stack then
<manjo> tgardner, will do
<tgardner> JFo, good idea
 * JFo notes this
<manjo> bjf, can you action me
<manjo> so that I have this info for the next meeting
<manjo> for/before
<JFo> bjf, action me as well for the sending of the CFT
<bjf> [ACTION] manjo to send a patch with test info
<MootBot> ACTION received:  manjo to send a patch with test info
<JFo> manjo, I'll send it once you let me know it is built and where the test kernel is.
<bjf> [ACTION] jfo to put out a CFT on new firewire stack
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jfo to put out a CFT on new firewire stack
<JFo> thanks bjf
<JFo> ..
<bjf> kamal, go
<kamal> sri
<kamal> Regarding bug 553498
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553498 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "Intel Core i3/i5/i7 hang on resume from suspend (SCI_EN)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553498
<kamal> We have this marked as Fix Committed for Lucid, but the fix in Lucid (my original patch) only helps Dell Studio 155x machines, so isn't really sufficient.
<kamal> I would like to get M. Garrett's better version of the fix ("Unconditionally set SCI_EN", as it exists now in Maverick) pulled into Lucid so we can fix this for all i3/i5/i7 machines.
<kamal> What is the procedure?
<bjf> SRU
<apw> kamal, propose it as an SRU patch in the normal way
<apw> send it to the kernel-team list etc
<apw> ..
<tgardner> that one seems like a good stable update patch
<kamal> ok, will do -- can I change the bug state from "Fix Committed" back to "In Progress" or something also?
<smb> Would there be chance that GregKH accepts it into stable upstream?
<tgardner> smb reads my mind
<apw> cirtainly worth asking ...
<bjf> kamal, you can also open a new bug just for the purposes of SRU, point back at the other bug
<smb> kamal, as bjf suggest
<kamal> bjf, ok I'll open a whole new bug for this -- should I ask GregKH about this directly?
<smb> Sounds strange that the bug only closes dell but is named generically
<kamal> the bug was originally titled "Dell Studio ..." but I changed it after realizing that it affected all (?) i3/i5/i7 machines
<apw> kamal, yeah we should get the title of the dell only bug fixed to be dell only and make the new one generic
<smb> kamal, I wonder whether I have not written some notes how to do
<smb> kamal, let me dig and get back to you
<kamal> apw: ok, that makes sense re: the bug titling.
<kamal> smb: I'll wait for your notes.
<kamal> thanks folks
<kamal> ..
<bjf> anyone else have anything?
<manjo> ..
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:42.
<JFo> thanks bjf
<apw> bjf thanks
<manjo> thanks bjf
<kamal> thanks bjf
<smb> thanks bjf
<SpamapS> ~\o
<hggdh> ~o~
<ttx> o/
<mathiaz> &o/\
<ttx> SpamapS, mathiaz: time for a Java discoveraibility discussion after the meeting&call ?
<zul> gday (channeling my inner dingo)
<mathiaz> SpamapS: sure
<kirkland> o/
<mathiaz> ttx: ^^
<SpamapS> ttx: definitely
<ttx> cool.
<Daviey>  ^
<Daviey> \o
<jjohansen> o/
<jiboumans> good aftermorniving
<jiboumans> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is jiboumans.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jiboumans> thanks all for joining, today's scribe will be Daviey
<Daviey> \o
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from last meeting
<jiboumans> ttx to coordinate testing for Alpha 2
<jiboumans> for those following along at home, the agenda is up at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> when alpha2 is near.
<ttx> carryover.
<jiboumans> very well.
<jiboumans> smoser to train someone on the release team on the cloud image release
<smoser> o/
<smoser> not done.
<jiboumans> smoser: anything blocking you?
<smoser> i will contact release team to make sure someone else is able.
<jiboumans> alright, let's carry over to next week then; if for any reason there's a block, feel free to flag it early so we can help resolve it
<jiboumans> smoser to provide a more detailed work item overview for server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades
<smoser> that is done.
<jiboumans> smoser: ta
<jiboumans> all to keep their specs uptodate with workitems and update their status monday EOB
<jiboumans> seems we have nice status updates on our WI tracker, thanks all
<jiboumans> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html for those following along
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html for those following along
<jiboumans> leaving sommer's action point till his section as he'll be a bit late today
<jiboumans> moving on:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Maverick development (jib)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick development (jib)
<jiboumans> we're half way through the development cycle to the Alpha2 milestone right now
<jiboumans> most specs should be around 50% completion right now. If you're off that mark, you may want to review work items and see if any can be postponed or dropped, or ask for some support
<jiboumans> some are well ahead of that curve so we should have some slack in that area
<jiboumans> I now give you ttx to go throught he specifics:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<mathiaz> jiboumans: I've added some WI as I've refined some of the work to be done
<mathiaz> jiboumans: so the percentage completion may move around as I've recorded more accurately what needs to be done
<jiboumans> mathiaz: excellent; the WIs are meant to reflect the work you intend to do. the numbers are just there to give us a sense of of progress
<ttx> oops
<jiboumans> mathiaz: in all cases accuracy trumps number juggling :)
<ttx> missed the last 5 minutes
<jiboumans> ttx: sorry, you still have to do your bit
<jiboumans> ttx: [TOPIC] Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<ttx> About alpha2 status ?
<ttx> ok
<ttx> We are going reasonably well
<ttx> the UEC specs are slightly late but we've been addressing that
 * hggdh blushes
<ttx> jiboumans: want to do a quick oneliner on progress ?
<jiboumans> ttx: i'd like to highlight the ones that we've just reviewed and rescoped somewhat
<mathiaz> ttx: should the update section cover that?
<jiboumans> which i believe is UEC testing, qa-workflow and cloud-init right?
<mathiaz> ttx: I'll be experimenting with a new format/template for the status section of BP
<mathiaz> ttx: you should see the output of this in the coming days
<ttx> and cloud-utils and uecec2-kernel-updates
<jiboumans> ttx: can you fill us in what happened on those specs?
<ttx> mathiaz: good
<ttx> sorry, my IRc client is acting funny
 * mathiaz hands a bottle of wine to ttx 
<ttx> UEC testing was rescoped to concentrate on fixing the current issues to get to a stable situation, and engage in training new people
<ttx> qa workflow was moved to A3 to give priority to uec-testing
<ttx> cloud-init was trimmed down to move prio-3 things as targets of opportunity
<ttx> cloud-utils first work items were reassigned to clint
<ttx> and uec-ec2-kernel-updates work items were clarified
<ttx> I think we now have a stable and clear view on what's expected from everyone
<ttx> if someone thinks he cannot make it, please raise the red flag !
 * mathiaz raises a bottle of wine towards ttx 
<jiboumans> thanks for that summary ttx
<jiboumans> this segways nicely to:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Feature Definition Freeze this week (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Feature Definition Freeze this week (ttx)
<ttx> Looking at http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html gives you a clear commonly shared view on what's expected
<ttx> Right, this Thursday is FDF*
<ttx> we need to freeze the design on all specs that affect main packages
<ttx> and present those to the release team
<ttx> We should be in good shape there, with the A2+A3 planning we've done so far
<mathiaz> ttx: do you have a list of WI that are impacted by FF?
<mathiaz> ttx: is this what you're looking for?
<ttx> mathiaz: no
<mathiaz> ttx: or is it more at the BP level?
<ttx> mathiaz: I ean, no, I'm not really needing that
<ttx> I need to come up with a list of all specs that will land features in main
<SpamapS> ttx: we've had to play with libmemcached a bit and fork it into two source packages, should I add that to the spec to clarify that we only want the new one in main, not the forked lucid package?
<jiboumans> SpamapS: yes
<jiboumans> clarity++
<ttx> and the release team will look into them, so applying some polish to the spec docs can't hurt
<ttx> yes, updating the spec wikidoc with current design is necessary
 * SpamapS digs around under the kitchen sink and emerges with a bottle of windex
<mathiaz> ttx: are MIR considered new features?
<ttx> mathiaz: that's an ongoing debate.
<ttx> I'd say in that context, yes.
<ttx> They want to know what will be hitting them
<jiboumans> i'd err on the side of caution here too and highlight these
<mathiaz> ttx: ok - so what do you expect from the team members?
<ttx> even if MIRteam != ReleaseTeam it still affects the contents of main.
<ttx> take some time[tm] to review the specs and making sure they are current.
<mathiaz> ttx: should I review all my specs and flags wether they're impacted by FF?
<ttx> I'll take it from there.
<mathiaz> ttx: ok
<ttx> If I have any question, I'll ask them.
<jiboumans> mathiaz, ttx: looking at the specs and work items, it looks fairly straightforward
<ttx> jiboumans: ack, should be straightforward.
<jiboumans> but to all, please be aware yourself which items affect FDF so you can answer any questions if need be
<jiboumans> ttx: anything more on FDF?
<ttx> no.
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<ttx> Did anyone mention that Daviey was the scribe yet ?
<jiboumans> ttx: first thing, yes
<zul> ttx: off hand yes
<hggdh> on my side
<Daviey> ttx: Shh!
<ttx> I missed tat as well :)
<hggdh> rigth now testing the metadata issue fix, and preparing to get to Lexington next week
<hggdh> no real other news right now (except that the fix does not absolutely good right now)
<ttx>  does not absolutely good ?
<ttx> as in, doesn't work ?
<hggdh> ttx: sort of. I am still getting metadata failures
<mathiaz> hggdh: what's the state of the lucid ubuntuX.2 SRU
<mathiaz> hggdh: ?
<mathiaz> hggdh: has the package been pushed from -proposed to -updates?
<hggdh> mathiaz: this was tested last week, and marked verification-done. I think today they made it into -updates
<mathiaz> hggdh: indeed - thanks for testing all the bugs
<jiboumans> hggdh++ indeed
<jiboumans> any questions for the QA team?
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<jiboumans> thanks hggdh
<jjohansen> well first off some updates
 * sommer arrives
<jjohansen> the pv-ops kernel for EC2 hasn't been working out so we are shelving it for at least alpha2 and will update the Xen patches
<zul> boo!
<jiboumans> sommer: good timing, you're up after this ;)
<jjohansen> seems zul wants to volunteer to work on it
<sommer> :-)
<jjohansen> :)
<zul> NO!
<jjohansen> the kernel has some known performance regressions, that will probably be in alpha2
<smoser> boo indeed.
<jiboumans> jjohansen: as in, the alpha2 kernel will have these known regressions?
<jjohansen> smoser: well part of that is so I have time to do testing of other amazon stuff
<jjohansen> yes
<jiboumans> jjohansen: then i assume targeted for alpha3 are the fixes to those regressions?
<jiboumans> jjohansen: where can we read about these regressions btw?
<jjohansen> hopefully, the problem is known upstream
<jjohansen> and the fixes will be coming from upstream kernels in later a RC
<jjohansen> the kernel team has would like to know some more about Bug #588861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Instances block in pending state, and don't start" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<Daviey> jjohansen: hey
<jjohansen> hey Daviey
<ttx> Daviey: what's the status of your investigations there ?
<Daviey> Triaging that is somewhat blocked at the moment, as it seems there are other foundation related issues stopping us from even getting as far as that to reprdouce
<Daviey> So since, the latest kernel, we haven't had an enviroment where we can reproduce that
<ttx> Daviey: if you have bug numbers for those foundations issues, they can be raised in the release team meeting
<Daviey> Therefore, i've been unable to provide further information OR confirm if the issue is still ongoing in the latest kernel
<jjohansen> Daviey: so we know its kernel related, and not an update to something else
<ttx> as blocking us.
<Daviey> ttx: That is what i'm spending all tommorrow attempting to triage
<ttx> Daviey: ok, keep us posted if we need to escalate how blocking this is
<jjohansen> Daviey: okay, the question came up as we were considering adding to the kernel teams top 50
<Daviey> jjohansen: That bug is kernel related.. but due to other platform issues - it can't yet have an enviroment to attempt to triage/reproduce
<ttx> Daviey: alpha1 was exhibiting the bug, right ?
<jjohansen> Daviey: okay, keep me posted and I will recommend adding it to the top 50
<Daviey> jjohansen: Yes
<ttx> Daviey: so we could install alpha1 and reproduce it
<Daviey> jjohansen: I'll update the bug and EOP tommorrow, with the current status
<Daviey> ttx: yes
<jjohansen> okay, thanks Daviey
<Daviey> Hmm, alpha1 with current kernel might be an interesting experiment to see if it is fixed
<Daviey> <-- /me will do that
<ttx> Daviey: ping me if you need help -- I can spend some cycles on reproducing that
<Daviey> ttx: super, more hands the better
<ttx> jjohansen: any progress on the atop patchset ?
<jjohansen> not yeet
<jjohansen> s/yeet/yet/
<ttx> jjohansen: ok
<jjohansen> any other questions for the kernel team?
<Daviey> jjohansen: nothing server related from me, thanks!
<jiboumans> jjohansen: do you think we can get some cycles on the atop patch in the next week?
<jiboumans> we have to present our alpha3 plan at the end of next week and atop would be part of that ideally, but only if you give it the thumbs up
<jjohansen> jiboumans: yes
<jiboumans> jjohansen: thanks, let me action that
<Daviey> Do we have some ACTION's here?
<jiboumans> [ACTION] jjohansen to review atop patchset for Alpha3 planning purposes
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jjohansen to review atop patchset for Alpha3 planning purposes
<jjohansen> jiboumans: I'll see if I can't get you an answer on them by eob tomorrow
<jiboumans> [ACTION] Daviey to update #588861, if needed against alpha1
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to update #588861, if needed against alpha1
<jiboumans> jjohansen: that'd be great, but this week is good already
<jjohansen> okay
<Daviey> awesome.
<jiboumans> alright, thanks lads
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<jiboumans> sommer: first question is of course what can we help you with ?
<sommer> I added some items to the blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-serverguide-updates
<sommer> but I think the one I'll need the most help with is the UEC section
<jiboumans> alright; daviey, kirkland, who of you would be up for taking that on?
 * kirkland points at Daviey 
<Daviey> Depending on the UEC blocking stuff, i could spare some.
<sommer> for lucid I took the information from the wiki, so it would be great if someone could at least review what's  there
<kirkland> sommer: Daviey there are a couple of good resources available for this already
<ttx> sommer: deadline is ?
<kirkland> Daviey: sommer: much has been written, just needs re-publication into the Server Guide format
<sommer> ttx: september 9th
<kirkland> sommer: you can start with http://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC
<Daviey> Currently UEC /doesn't work/ on Maverick.. I need to work on that first.. but after that i can spare some.
<jiboumans> sommer: i'll edit the bp now, feel free to translate that to work items as appropriate
<Daviey> Otherwise.. /me points at kirkland :)
<kirkland> sommer: can you read through what we've written at that link above?
 * ttx would advise having those items for the beta iteration
<kirkland> sommer: come back to us in a week or so, and let us know what you need more directly?
<kirkland> sommer: based on what you need, i bet daviey and i can help
<Daviey> +1
 * kirkland agrees with Daviey, UEC is busted in Maverick; that needs fixing first
<sommer> kirkland: sure, I'd planned to, but only have two machines with the vt extensions
<kirkland> sommer: you only need 1 to do UEC ;-)
<Daviey> sommer: two is plenty! :)
<jiboumans> sommer: i see a few more items you need assistance wtih
<jiboumans> shall we add some names to that list?
<sommer> jiboumans: that'd be great, I planned on pinging ivoks about the clustering sections
<jiboumans> clustering sounds like RoAkSoAx / ivoks indeed
<jiboumans> vmbuilder?
<sommer> ttx gave me some updates for the Tomcat section a while back, but I can also test that
<jiboumans> sommer: puppet(mathiaz) and tomcat (ttx) seem straight forward too
<ttx> ufw -> jdstrand
<sommer> I'll ping soren about the vmbuilder stuff
<ttx> vmbuilder -~~> soren?
<sommer> hopefully get ahold of him at some point :)
<Daviey> sommer: Awesome, this is sounding like the best doc's yet!
<jiboumans> that leaves install tasks & opennebula
<ttx> I'd drop opennebula, it's not really in our core cloud strategy
<sommer> is opennebula widely used?
<sommer> ttx: sounds good to me
 * ttx never used it
<jiboumans> sommer: there's some people experimenting with it
<ttx> I think it's still universe ?
<jiboumans> sommer: i couldn't speak to the state of opennebula on ubuntu right nwo though
<zul> no i dont think so...afaik it still in unvierse and didnt build afaik
 * mathiaz agrees
<SpamapS> what about documentation for pending MIR's ?
<mathiaz> sommer: I'd drop opennebula for maverick
<jiboumans> it's the same as in karmic
<ttx> SpamapS: ?
<sommer> mathiaz: sounds good will do
<jiboumans> which is a minor patch on jaunty
<SpamapS> ttx: I'm not clear on what needs to be in the docs.. everything in main that is server related?
<jiboumans> ttx: are you ok with supporting sommer on documenting the new install tasks?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: not necessarly (actually not at all)
<ttx> jiboumans: sure
<SpamapS> Ok, I've filed a few mir's .. mostly developer related stuff, not operational, so I don't think its necessary to document it either.. just wanted to make sure.
<mathiaz> SpamapS: we've got to decide what is *worth* putting in the server guide
<jiboumans> sommer: could you please double check that the spec reflects the new reality? https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-serverguide-updates/+whiteboard
<sommer> SpamapS: historically the serverguide has included items that will help an admin new to ubuntu to get up and running quickly
<sommer> jiboumans: sure
<jiboumans> on that note: edge.launchpad.net++ for having wider whiteboards
 * ttx hugs Bryce for unclutterring the whiteboard
<SpamapS> ok so the monitoring framework stuff for alpha3 may need some docs (though the spec is stil "pending approval")
<jiboumans> sommer: i've added the names we just discussed; go ahead and change that to work items as appropriate. for the canonical guys, please schedule it for the beta iteration
 * kirkland high fives bryce too
<jiboumans> sommer: for the others, whenever is good for them of course
<sommer> jiboumans: will do
<jiboumans> SpamapS: that'll be true until just before Alpha3
<jiboumans> we don't 'approve' them until we've commited to work on them
<jiboumans> and we decide that on a per-iteration basis
 * SpamapS continues absorbing the process
<SpamapS> :)
<jiboumans> sommer: anything else from you?
<sommer> I think that's it... thanks everyone for your help :)
<jiboumans> sommer++ no, thank you
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Papercuts Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Papercuts Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<ttx> quick status
<ttx> https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-alpha-2
<ttx> all assigned
<ttx> 65% fixed
<ttx> Remember to nominate for the next cycle
<ttx> we have a shortage in nominations
<ttx> done.
<jiboumans> ttx++ thanks
 * SpamapS has a couple in mind but cannot nominate for milestones.. yet
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<jiboumans> SpamapS: tell ttx about 'm and he can nominate on yoru behalf
<ttx> SpamapS: you can "nominate for papercuts"
<mathiaz> zul: what's the state of the weekly nomination script?
<SpamapS> ttx: right, right. :)
<ttx> SpamapS: just mark as "Also affecting" server-papercuts
<mathiaz> zul: the WI is marked as done - I haven't seen an email going out though
<zul> so the weekly nomination stuff is a work in progress
<mathiaz> one bug nominated for lucid: bug 588293
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588293 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu) "Memory leak" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588293
<mathiaz> anything worth SRUing on http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html ?
<mathiaz> ^^?
<SpamapS> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/couchdb/+bug/419091  not on that list, but worth SRU'ing into karmic
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 419091 in couchdb (Ubuntu) "couchdb init script doesn't properly control processes" [Undecided,Fix released]
<zul> mathiaz: bug 572410
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572410 in samba (Ubuntu) "nmbd doesn't start because of missing testparm" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/572410
<Daviey> possibly 579584
<Daviey> bug 579584
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 579584 in libvirt (Ubuntu) "setgid, setuid needed by /etc/apparmor.d/abstractions/libvirt-qemu" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/579584
<ttx> SpamapS: karmic ?
<SpamapS> ttx: it was fixed in lucid, but karmic cannot stop couchdb.
<mathiaz> SpamapS: that's annoying
<mathiaz> SpamapS: if the patch is really simple it may be worth SRUing
<SpamapS> the init script was totally rewritten for lucid .. and would be a simple backport.
<mathiaz> SpamapS: hm - I've approved the nomination for now
<jiboumans> SpamapS: the only real answer is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow7iUaKrq4 #light-hearted
<jiboumans> any other nominations?
<SpamapS> jiboumans: ++
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] New SRU Tracker (zul)
<MootBot> New Topic:  New SRU Tracker (zul)
<zul> hi
<zul> so for the maverick uds we are changing the way we do nominations for SRU...
<mathiaz> Daviey: does the bug fit the SRU criteria?
<jiboumans> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
<zul> we are taking it to the ubuntu-server list to get more feedback, the email will be starting shortly after some introduction
<Daviey> mathiaz: possibly, requires more investigation
<zul> we are also monitoring the status of the SRU nominated bugs (work in progress) at http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
<jiboumans> zul++
<zul> basically its a cron job that sucks in launchpad into a sql database and displays the results
<zul> it runs nightly so the information might be out of date sometimes
<mathiaz> zul: this is great work
<ttx> The results are slightly false though
<jiboumans> i'd like to integrate this in our SRU reviews as well
<ttx> I hear you have a fix for the "all boxes are green" issue
<zul> ttx: yeah because i havent worked out all the bugs yet
<ttx> ack
<jiboumans> it's work in progress, but even the early version is helpful imho
<jiboumans> zul: moving it to an LP branch a la work-item-tracker's good i think
<zul> in the second table on that page is a list of nominated bugs that no one has worked on
<mathiaz> yes - we can already spot bugs that could handle some testing
<zul> funny that you mention that https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~zulcss/+junk/server-sru-tracker
<mathiaz> zul: of *accepted* bugs
<jiboumans> zul: minues the +junk? :)
<zul> but it has to be moved to its own project
<zul> jiboumans: ack
<jiboumans> zul: indeed
<jiboumans> [ACTION] zul to move the sru tracker code to it's own project
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to move the sru tracker code to it's own project
<jiboumans> zul++ thanks for whipping this up
<jiboumans> any more questions on the tracker?
<ttx> yay, let's branch it
<zul> ttx: and mock the code? :)
<Daviey> fork that.
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<jiboumans> going once...
<Daviey> None here.
<jiboumans> going twice...
<ttx> ...
<jiboumans> sold to the bearded lady in the back
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<jiboumans> Tuesday 2010-06-22 at 1800 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<jiboumans> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:03.
<Daviey> o/
<jiboumans> thanks all
<sommer> party! :-)
<czajkowski> Aloha folks
<popey> o/
<czajkowski> Meeting for loco council starting shortly
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is czajkowski.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<czajkowski> Aloha folks LoCo Council meeting on now
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> This evenings short agenda
<huats> hello czajkowski !
<itnet7> Hello everyone! :-)
<czajkowski> [topic] Best Guide and Practices
<MootBot> New Topic:  Best Guide and Practices
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamsBestPracticesandGuidelines
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamsBestPracticesandGuidelines
<czajkowski> so just to make teams aware of a guide we've put together to help teams
<czajkowski> The idea of this document is to help new teams set up and do some regular things that we have found work for teams
<czajkowski> It;s broken down into monthly tasks
<czajkowski> if teams do monthly reports it gives you a good idea of what you are doing and if you aren't doing anything, then maybe you need a hand in coming up with some ideas
 * popey edits it a bit
<czajkowski> Long term goals to help you plan for the future, this can consist of helping and guiding new members
<czajkowski> anyone have any questons
<czajkowski> itnet7: huats leogg care to join in
<itnet7> czajkowski: I think you've covered it pretty well
<czajkowski> THe guide has been translated but it'd be nice to see more translations
<huats> czajkowski, actually I agree with itnet7 it covers a lot of area
<czajkowski> This is the first revision of it and perhaps at the end of this cycle we can review it if anyone has other ideas on what ideas do work for teams
<huats> I'll pass the URL to the french translation team
<czajkowski> huats: thanks :)
<czajkowski> ok moving on so
<czajkowski> [topic] LoCo Team Re Approval Update
<MootBot> New Topic:  LoCo Team Re Approval Update
<itnet7> Maybe if anyone wants to suggest some ideas from the teams we can try and include them were feasible (sorry for the late feedback)
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<itnet7> s/were/where/
<czajkowski> the LoCo council has selected teams for this cycle to review.  It's random. Any team over 2 years is viewed.
<czajkowski> As we cannot do every single team in one cycle we select a number, this time 30
<czajkowski> if you team is NOT ON THE LIST - you don't need to worry.  You will be selected another time
<czajkowski> Do not panic if you receive an email from us
<czajkowski> One of the loco council members will contact you , that is your point of contact for the re approval process.
<czajkowski> If you've any questions, just ask, if you want us to review your application before the meeting, just ask, We're here to help you
<czajkowski> Does anyone have any questions regarding the process?
<czajkowski> hmm not sure the silence is good, as there does seem to be a bit of confusion regarding this on the mailing list.
<popey> I suspect not many loco team members are here
<czajkowski> popey: possibly.
<itnet7> that's what I was thinking as well
<YoBoY> i'm here ;)
<czajkowski> wonder do they know it's on
<popey> :)
<czajkowski> YoBoY: aloha!!! :)
<popey> I dont think they care :(
<YoBoY> hi :)
<czajkowski> popey: aye I think it's more of a case of they're not sure what this meeting is for, is it just for re approval meetings
<czajkowski> popey: I think this is something we should be looking into
<huats> of course you are here YoBoY :)
<popey> sure
<czajkowski> I'll move onto the next topic as that's kinda more inline with it
<czajkowski> [topic] How the LoCo Council can help you
<MootBot> New Topic:  How the LoCo Council can help you
<czajkowski> I guess the fact that there are very few team members here is something we should looking into
<czajkowski> I don't think LoCo teams know about this meeting, and if they do know it exists, they assume it's only for approval and re approval meetings
<AlanBell> do you want team members here or point of contacts?
<huats> I think both would be great :)
<czajkowski> AlanBell: it's welcome to everyone. anyone who wants to learn more about the community, or take part in discussion
<czajkowski> If the point of contacts are here, it would be great as they could/should be passing on information to their teams
<czajkowski> as I have noticed many point of contacts not explain the re approval process to their teams
<popey> we know they dont do that though
<popey> (pass information on)
<popey> from the loco-contacts list for example
<czajkowski> popey: :( aye we do now
<mhall119> do meeting minutes get sent to loco-contacts?
<czajkowski> mhall119: we started doing that last cycle
<mhall119> ok, I couldn't remember seeing any
<czajkowski> So how can we get more teams to come here and take part
<czajkowski> and
<czajkowski> how can we make sure point of contacts are in fact passing on information to their teams
<itnet7> czajkowski: you can mention it in your checkup talks, and we can blog about it
<czajkowski> which is the whole point of a point of contact
<czajkowski> itnet7: aye I think we the council should be blogging about this issue
<AlanBell> well, it being a "loco council meeting" kind of led me to believe it was for the loco council to attend (plus teams under reapproval)
<czajkowski> There are 6 of us, so I think we should be able to increase the awareness of this
<huats> czajkowski, I agree
<huats> AlanBell, it is a LoCo Council meeting. So it is a meeting where you can find the LoCo Council... and not leave them alone :)
<czajkowski> It's also a chance to raise issues and bring them to our attention
<czajkowski> folks find us on IRC the whole time, but it would be nice to have them rasied here so more input can be made
<YoBoY> i can't remember if you send an email to the loco ML to remember this meeting and invite them to come
<huats> YoBoY, no I don't think either
<czajkowski> YoBoY: that's true we should do that
<huats> czajkowski, I can blog about it
<popey> so we need to change perception of the meeting, and better communicate the purpose of it?
<czajkowski> popey: yes
<huats> popey, +1
<popey> yet more reason for us to mail all the loco teams mailing lists?
<huats> popey, indeed...
<czajkowski> So how about on the Monday before the meeting we mail the loco contacts mailing list to poke them and let them know this meeting is on and to add agenda items ??
<huats> czajkowski, you mean the day before ?
<czajkowski> huats: aye is that too short?
<popey> we already know people a) dont read the loco contacts list, and b) people dont pass it on
<AlanBell> perhaps communicate to the point of contacts that their attendance or the attendance of a representative from their loco is expected
<huats> a bit short I think
<popey> so i'm unconvinced how effective that would be
<czajkowski> perhaps we could ask jono to blog about this
<huats> I would prefer the friday before
<czajkowski> people do read his blog and his tweets
<popey> I am also unconvinced blogging is the way forward
<czajkowski> is jono around, before I action him stuff
<czajkowski> popey: ok, what would you suggest?
<mhall119> I might have some suggestings that tie into the next agenda item
<popey> i dont think we should be actioning anyone without figuring out the problem / solution first
<huats> popey, well I think it is not a big action to blog and mail
<huats> we can try out to see it there is any improvment :)
<popey> ok, here's my thoughts..
<czajkowski> popey: I think the lack of awareness is a large issue
<huats> popey, go ahead :)
<popey> do we really need people to be here to listen to us announce a wiki page?
<popey> surely this can be better communicated via other means than irc
<mhall119> I think the desire is for the LC to listen to team members, not the other way around
<popey> sure, which brings me onto my next point
<popey> they know where to find us, we have a mailing list, and people do use it
<popey> of course if they want to discuss stuff we can do so in irc
<popey> but it's not like we're inaccessible?
<popey> or are we?
<huats> popey, actually you are :P
<czajkowski> popey: thats true, however, tis kinda hard to follow up on a pm, and folks only seem to poke the same people over and over
<czajkowski> popey: not all of us are on IRC or run screen sessions so we get messages
<mhall119> itnet7 keeps spending time on someting called "work"
<itnet7> mhall119: :-p
<huats> I think the clear misunderstood of the reapproval that people had faced lately and the number of email our mailing list received is quite explicit
<czajkowski> I'd rather see teams coming here and engaging in discussion
<paultag> Hey. Sorry I'm late
<czajkowski> there seems to be a lack of discussion happening here and even on the mailing list
<huats> on the other hand I have been quite suprised to see a team asking where to find me...
<czajkowski> paultag: welcome :)
<YoBoY> hi paultag
<czajkowski> YoBoY: AlanBell mhall119 you're the only ones who are active here atm. What would you like to see happening? to get discussions going?
<mhall119> well, this kind of ties into the meeting feature we're talking about for loco-directory
<AlanBell> well I had no idea I didn't have to shut up :-)
<mhall119> since loco-council in in the directory, it will be able to add meetings there, and add other teams to those meetings
<paultag> Hey! Quiet-pants! Let's get some talk going or we might as well stop here!
<itnet7> popey: may be on to something though, maybe we can use the LoCo Health Check meetings to discuss all of the resources and keep this meeting aside for re-approvals
<paultag> duanedesign: POKE! You're quite active in the community :)
<paultag> Joeb454: Ya'here?
<itnet7> not everyone would have to attend both
<czajkowski> akgraner: where are you, you're usually a lot more active
<czajkowski> itnet7: good point
<mhall119> if we can get teams using ical feeds from LD to advertise meetings to their members, then the loco-council can get on those ical feeds for each team too
<czajkowski> itnet7: at present folks just attend here for approvals
<czajkowski> mhall119: *nods*
<mhall119> czajkowski: she said something in ubuntu-us-nc earlier about not being around as much due to surgery on her arm, but I'm not sure if that's happened yet or not
<czajkowski> mhall119: would this be also like the UWN ( akgraner ) with the icals for meetins?
<AlanBell> I just think a "who should attend" line somewhere might be useful
<YoBoY> don't know... the re approval process is in its way for our locoteam, the wiki explain a lot, i haven't questions aout it yet
<AlanBell> on the agenda
<mhall119> czajkowski: UWN has a ical feed?  or do they want an ical feed?
<akgraner> czajkowski, you are making my machine blink :-)  what's up?
<itnet7> Well I mean if one or two of the LC members can support each other for the Health Check and we can focus on having a quorom here for the re/approvals that may be a good solution
<czajkowski> they are doing them
<paultag> jacob: cjohnston, drubin, nigelb, Poke, ya'll -- We need some more talk on LoCo stuff. You guys around?
<czajkowski> akgraner: wondeing why folks we know are active are not active in this session
<cjohnston> ?
<mhall119> czajkowski: since akgraner asked me for the meeting feature, I guess it would probably replace what UWN is doing
<akgraner> ahh I am publishing the newsletter at the moment :-)
<cjohnston> me too
<popey> nice timing
<akgraner> mhall119, nope won't replace what we do in UWN but it will give me a place to point people to for LoCo information
<mhall119> ah, ok, what do you have ical feeds for now?
<drubin> paultag: yes
<czajkowski> ok so I think at least as a start we should be mailing the loco contacts mailing list the Friday before the meeting to REMIND them it's on.
<czajkowski> I'll take that on
<paultag> drubin: thanks :) -- LoCo council meeting, it's quiet. Can I convince you to stick around and throw your two cents in?
<akgraner> UWN will report the development team meetings, move the LoCo meetings off the Fridge calendar and on to a LoCo Calendar instead
<czajkowski> [action] czajkowski to mail loco contacts mailing list the Friday before the meeting to remind people this meeting is on
<MootBot> ACTION received:  czajkowski to mail loco contacts mailing list the Friday before the meeting to remind people this meeting is on
<mhall119> akgraner: okay, I understand now
<drubin> paultag: sure I need to read the scroll back quick though
<paultag> czajkowski: I should have CC'd contacts when I mailed the council ML
<paultag> drubin: quite alright
<akgraner> mhall119, awesome! :-)
<czajkowski> popey: moving forward what would you suggest? for communication methods?
<popey> I'm not sure, I wanted us to discuss it, rather than just say 'lets blog it'
<popey> figure out what the best way forward is.. if that makes sense
<huats> popey, makes sense
<itnet7> definitely popey
<AlanBell> fwiw I am unconvinced that blogging it is the solution, it won't be seen by people who are not yet involved in Ubuntu
<czajkowski> popey: well I'd love to see discussions take place on the list
<popey> AlanBell: I am not sure they are target audience anyway
<paultag> AlanBell: well we are only worried with talking with contacts
<czajkowski> I also btw tweet using #locoteams as do very few others, but it's interesting to follow and something we could push
<paultag> AlanBell: contacts talk with lay members :)
<popey> target is people who are already in loco teams, who need help, mentoring, direction etc
<paultag> czajkowski: I like that
<huats> czajkowski, good idea too
<czajkowski> popey: true
<drubin> czajkowski: Nice idea.
<czajkowski> popey: I think we need to increase the awareness of this Council also - that it's not taboo to contact us.
<huats> popey, I do beleive that people who are involved in LoCo teams are quite exposed to planet ubuntu
<paultag> Wonder if we could have a tweet version of planet ubuntu
<czajkowski> If folks know they can contact us about anything, bouce a loco idea off us or just need a hand, we're here to help
<czajkowski> paultag: no!
<huats> popey, I am not saying it is THE solution, but cool be part of it
<paultag> czajkowski: it will support identi.ca too!
<popey> sure
<huats> popey, I meant can be part of it
<mhall119> paultag: status.net
<paultag> mhall119: well it's all the same API
<popey> ok these are technical details
<paultag> aye
<AlanBell> popey: what I meant was that blogging is a point in time and the community is growing so new people won't see today's blog entries
<mhall119> paultag: but status.net can have separate domains
<popey> the main issue is getting information out to members of locos around the world
<paultag> mhall119: another issue
<paultag> +1 popey
<huats> AlanBell, of course
<czajkowski> popey: +1
<mhall119> paultag: you can ask akgraner about it
<drubin> popey: I think a biggest issue is gettting the info out to the rest of the people.
<paultag> mhall119: we'll do that after the meeting if that's the direction we go with :)
<drubin> I think ubuntu hour was one of the greatest things our loco ever did.
<czajkowski> popey: is it something we should be mandating points of contacts to pass mails from us to loco contacts list to their teams list
<paultag> drubin: Yes!!!
<czajkowski> Or
<czajkowski> something that the loco council should indeed be mailing LoCo teams mailing list wiht
<drubin> It has started up a Lug in our area to have their beer evenings again!! it was awsome
<czajkowski> *with
<czajkowski> I know this kinda topic came up at UDS
<drubin> paultag: More global jams and bug things
<popey> I still think we should mail out to all the loco mailing lists
<paultag> czajkowski: Humm. Could we set up something fancy with launchpad RE the approved team list, and CC that list ( which will send to all lists )
<czajkowski> should the loco council post to the Teams mailing list information we want teams to have for definate ie, re approval??
<paultag> popey: me too
<mhall119> czajkowski: I'm gonna need to leave in about 15 minutes, will there be time for my agenda item?
<drubin> like I know when there is a global thing my loco gets excited and wants to be involved but if it is just SA they aren't so keen
<AlanBell> do you think there should be a "who should attend" section on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<popey> yes al
<czajkowski> AlanBell: yes
<popey> +tab
<czajkowski> popey: see my comment above
<YoBoY> drubin: you can organize that without the global event thing ;)
<czajkowski> mhall119: should be
<akgraner> paultag, let me get UWN published - and I'll be happy to answer question about status.net :-)
<drubin> YoBoY: you missed my point, when it is global people are always more keen! :)
<paultag> akgraner: we'll do it after the meeting, deal?
<drubin> and yes we do.
<paultag> akgraner: :)
<akgraner> nods
<YoBoY> drubin: ok
<huats> czajkowski, I think we cannot completly rely on loco contacts
<huats> we have seen that of a few occasions lately
<drubin> ;/ that is sad
<paultag> huats: I agree
<czajkowski> huats: what about for imporatn mails, we actually mail the loco mailing list itself, ie we'd mail all the teams approved and unaproved with issues we want to bring to their attention
<czajkowski> so ireland france uk would get the mail from us
<paultag> oi oi, Ohio too!
<mhall119> everyone except Ohio ;)
<paultag> :P
<drubin> as long as it is low traffic
<czajkowski> paultag: I wasn;t going to list all of the teams out! I'd be here all evening my dear!
<paultag> drubin: +1, and major stuff :)
<paultag> czajkowski: :)
<popey> heh
<czajkowski> drubin: it'd be only for important mails
<drubin> 90% of the stuff on loco-contacts is useless for most locos
<huats> czajkowski, this is something we have envisaged : to have a direct access to loco mailing list
<drubin> czajkowski: Just making it noted but ye I assumed it would be
<czajkowski> well it'd take us the loco council being added to all of the teams
<czajkowski> drubin: :)
<paultag> czajkowski: could we sneak something with the launchpad group?
<czajkowski> paultag: leave lp alone :p
<paultag> czajkowski: we already have a list, maintaining it is hard IMHO
<drubin> also just so you know that most of the teams don't use LP for thier mailing lists
<paultag> czajkowski: well shucks, it would save us time!
<czajkowski> popey: would it take much for us to be added to all of the teams ??
<paultag> drubin: I know, but if their contact addy was the ML we would be all set
<popey> it would just take 5 mins subscribing to each mailman list
<paultag> drubin: us --> lp --> lp teams --> lists.ubuntu for each team
<popey> and set them all to nomail
<popey> so we dont get all their mail, we just send mail to their list as a subscriber
<drubin> well maybe it would be better to subscribe the council to each team.
<popey> yup
<AlanBell> agenda fixed.
<czajkowski> ok, how does that sound to the council, going forward for important mails and annoucements we send our mail directly to the teams ??
<paultag> I'll +1 it, even though it's more work :)
<popey> I'd check thats okay with jono / the cc
<popey> its not much work tbh
<paultag> I'm kidding popey :)
<huats> czajkowski, +1 for me too
<paultag> I'm all for it. I think it would help a lot
<paultag> Just worried about RE mail, but that is OK.
<itnet7> sounds good to me
<czajkowski> [action] popey to investigate The LoCo Council being added to all LoCo teams mailing list so the Council can post directly to them
<MootBot> ACTION received:  popey to investigate The LoCo Council being added to all LoCo teams mailing list so the Council can post directly to them
<huats> popey, you are right to ask for it with CC and jono
<drubin> +1 fro popey
<czajkowski> ok does anyone have any further comments as I'd like to move onto mhall119 topic please
<drubin> any thing >1 per month IMHO is to high trafficthough
<czajkowski> [topic] LoCo-Directory Meeting Feature
<MootBot> New Topic:  LoCo-Directory Meeting Feature
<czajkowski> mhall119: you're up
<mhall119> thanks czajkowski
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoDirectory/MeetingFeature
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoDirectory/MeetingFeature
<mhall119> so, after releasing the event tracking feature on loco.ubuntu.com, we've had several people ask us about using it to track IRC meetings
 * mhall119 is one of the loco-directory devs
<mhall119> the current event feature is really specific to physical meetups, so we're looking into creating an IRC meeting feature to compliment it
<mhall119> this feature would let teams schedule meetings, give the channel they will be held in, provide a structured list of agenda items, etc
<mhall119> it would largely replace the use of Wiki pages for these things
<mhall119> wiki pages would still be used to expand in detail on specific agenda items
<mhall119> once we have all this data in a structured form, we can produce ical feeds, give it to Mootbot directly, and automatically link to logs and minutes
<AlanBell> I am working on an improved mootbot framework in this cycle which would do nice automated mintues, it could integrate directly with the loco directory to read agenda items and publish minutes and action points back
<czajkowski> So I asked mhall119 to bring this up onthe list - but there was silence on it.  Just because I don't think it's very fair if one team makes a suggestion for this and then it gets implemented and all teams now have to use it. Then information is on the wiki and on the LD
<paultag> I'm here, but eating dinner. Don't mistake me for missing!
<huats> ok czajkowski
<huats> you were right to do so
<mhall119> we wouldn't force teams to use this feature instead of the wiki, but once more and more people are using it as a source of data, they will likely feel compelled to do so
<czajkowski> I also think that by adding more and more features to replace the wiki, teams may not be confortable with this and then information is all over the place
<czajkowski> mhall119: so that;s kinda forcing people by the fact that most do.
<AlanBell> the mootbot changes would have to be backwards compatible and also wiki optimised as the loco directory only does loco teams, all other teams that hold meetings would not be helped by this
<mhall119> so far the reception to the events feature has been very positive
<paultag> mhall119: can you talk with wiki?
<czajkowski> Also for the council to review teams, to have information in one place and not all over the place does help
<mhall119> paultag: not really, because wiki's aren't structured
<paultag> mhall119: perhaps we can have loco-directory write to /loco-direcotory/automated/team/event/
<paultag> mhall119: and from there include it on the page of the team
<mhall119> we could post to a wiki, I suppose, but not reliably read from it
<paultag> mhall119: all you have to work out is how to auth
<paultag> mhall119: you don't need to read
<mhall119> then yes
<mhall119> or a Moin macro can be made to retrieve data from the directory and format it for the wiki
<paultag> mhall119: perhaps move it all to loco-directory that way
<czajkowski> I think what mhall119 wanted to know and see was if teams would use this. But I don;t think there are enough people to really discuss this either
<mhall119> now, to go back to the previous discussions, since loco-council is one of the teams loco.ubuntu.com is aware of, they can post their meetings there too, and include other teams in those meetings
<paultag> czajkowski: hopefully it won't impact teams that don't use it
<mhall119> also, for reapprovals, the loco-council could schedule the meeting and include each team that is up for re-approval
<mhall119> it won't directly impact teams that don't use it, but if most teams do use it, the teams that don't may miss out on new features
<mhall119> I don't think that's really forcing them though, just offering a better option
<mhall119> as long as Mootbot can continue to take manual direction
<mhall119> it shouldn't interfere with their current methods
<czajkowski> mhall119: hmm my objection still stands though. Team members getting developers to work on this is great, but no discussion with teams and then implementing it, isn't very community driven either
<mhall119> but, it would mean akgraner would have to pull from loco-directory and the wiki for UWN
<mhall119> czajkowski: I agree, and I would like to see more discussion about it
<paultag> mhall119: well right now we have 100% of the teams on the wiki
<popey> creating it is fine, forcing it on locos isnt czajkowski, i agree
<mhall119> unfortunately there's just been a lot of silence
<paultag> mhall119: we are going to work on migrate, but it takes time, and we can't rush new things
<drubin> mhall119: btw you have made some assumptions like only using freenode. not being able to use it for physical meetings, not having a list of people present
<mhall119> we've had several requests for the feature, and one complaint
<czajkowski> popey: right, which is what is gonna happen :(
<czajkowski> mhall119: I've also seen no discssion either
<mhall119> drubin: yes, feel free to bring those up in the spec, it's still in the planning stage
<czajkowski> mhall119: my complaint is that disussion hasn't happened
<mhall119> czajkowski: understood, I'm trying to change than
<mhall119> that
<czajkowski> mhall119: I know
<huats> czajkowski, but I fear that there might have no discussion...
<mhall119> my feeling is, if there is little interest, no objection, and a lot of indifference, that's enough to justify doing it
<czajkowski> huats: so we're back at tonights earlier topic :)
<czajkowski> mhall119: :o
<AlanBell> I am unsure why there is a concern about this being forced on teams
<huats> on another hand I thik that sometimes the discussion starts once someone is trying to use it, so it needs to be done... (but I assume it is not the right way to do stuffs)
<mhall119> the biggest impact would be on akgraner and UWN, as they would have to pull from two sources if teams continued using the wiki
<paultag> that's not true mhall119
<drubin> the point about scrum and stories is developsomething small, and interate.
<drubin> if it doesn't work change it
<paultag> mhall119: you can not pull from the loco-directory, only pull from the loco directory or both
<mhall119> I don't follow
<paultag> mhall119: I like the loco-directory, but we need to work on a slow migraton. For now the Wiki is the most upto date source
<czajkowski> mhall119: fair enough but I don't think we should change based on UWN either. Some teams like wikis and tbh, most teams aren't useing the LD as much as they could
<paultag> mhall119: that's why I'm thinking a wiki bridge might aid in adoption
<czajkowski> I'd rather see more of a focus getting teams to use the LD and posting events to it
<czajkowski> before meetings
<drubin> +1 from my side
<huats> czajkowski, I agree
<mhall119> paultag: would we be allowed to add a Moin macro to the Ubuntu wiki servers?
<drubin> there seems to be an perception that it is hard to post an event
<czajkowski> huats: I think the focus for this cycle should be getting teams to use the LD, adding their events and detals on it
<drubin> or even sign up to an event
<paultag> mhall119: perhaps, but it's really easy to do it the other way -- why not just write to wiki pages
<czajkowski> and not meetings
<mhall119> drubin: how so?
<paultag> mhall119: just set up /loco-directory/automated/ blah blah
<huats> czajkowski, I agree with you
<mhall119> paultag: we would need to authenticate to the wiki
<czajkowski> huats: :)
<paultag> mhall119: trivial
<drubin> mhall119: I have no idea just does ;/
<mhall119> paultag: okay then, would you help us with that part?
<drubin> mhall119: I am not saying I feel that it is the feeling I get from other people
<huats> czajkowski, so it might be worth putting an effort on developping an early version of the meetings :) and improve it while team start using it on the next cycle
<drubin> Ok but I need to get going.. sorry I couldn't stay the full meeting, but I think emailing the loco-contacts before the meeting would help.
<czajkowski> drubin: ok we;ll be doing that in future
<paultag> ty drubin
<czajkowski> drubin: thanks for coming
<mhall119> I need to head out too, are there any questions I can answer before I go?
<mhall119> feel free to keep discussing it after I'm gone, I'll read the logs from home
<paultag> mhall119: can you work out the practical way of briding wiki and ld and get back to us?
<mhall119> paultag: as long as the intention is to move forward with this feature if such a bridge is made
<mhall119> otherwise it'd just be a waste of time
<paultag> mhall119: it is
<AlanBell> paultag: not entirely sure it needs to do that, if mootbot could publish both to the wiki and to the LD then doesn't that solve it?
<mhall119> ok, I will ask you later how to get LD authenticating to the wiki
<paultag> AlanBell: well if the events on a wiki page for a team was pulling from LD it would be more up to date then anything else
<AlanBell> and yeah, I have no idea how to do the auth bit
<czajkowski> does anyone else have any comments ?
<paultag> mhall119: thanks rockstar
<AlanBell> paultag: ah, ok for the events bridge, gotcha.
<paultag> AlanBell: aye
<mhall119> I'm in #ubuntu-locoteams or #ubuntu-us-fl all the time if anybody has other questions
<mhall119> otherwise, put your ideas/concerns on the spec page
<mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoDirectory/MeetingFeature
<czajkowski> mhall119: thanks
<mhall119> thanks everybody
<paultag> ty mhall119
<huats> thanks everyone
<czajkowski> Has anyone else got any other topics for the loco council ??
<czajkowski> [action] paultag write up mins and post to contacts mailing list and update wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  paultag write up mins and post to contacts mailing list and update wiki
<paultag> :)
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:09.
<czajkowski> paultag: in case you think I'd forgotten
<popey> blimey
<paultag> :D
<itnet7> :-)
<paultag> czajkowski: :P
<huats> :)
<popey> i expected us to be here for another hour  :)
<czajkowski> popey: I can restart meeting if you;ve other items ?
<popey> heh
<paultag> Well, I'm off to cut my lawn. Thanks, all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-16
<robbiew> o/
<psurbhi> hello \o/
 * barry waves
<Keybuk>           \o/
<cjwatson>          \o/
<doko> hi
<cjwatson> doko: are you chairing?
<doko> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is doko.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<doko> ev ?
<doko> shuffled: doko, cjwatson, Keybuk, ev, barry, surbhi, mvo
<doko> (no cheating)
<doko> # Linaro infrastructure sprint (well, the infrastructure guys did complain it was too much toolchain work).
<doko> # Merge of CS gcc-4.4 branch for Linaro.
<doko> # Review Debian/Ubuntu GCC patches for integration in Linaro.
<doko> # Look at using the CS gcc-4.4 branch on i386 and amd64 for maverick.
<doko> --
<doko> cjwatson: ?
<robbiew> mvo is on holiday
<cjwatson> done: nearly finished with foundations-m-btrfs-support; made some progress with foundations-m-uefi-support, and just in time because I just took delivery of hardware from OEM to help test it; some big merges (grub2, initramfs-tools)
<cjwatson> todo: planning to nail everything that can be nailed of foundations-m-uefi-support over the next week, and then get back to seeing how to get GRUB onto the CDs
<barry> robbiew: mvo is unavailable <wink>
<cjwatson> --
<cjwatson> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> Still not getting much done :-(
<Keybuk> Have managed a few package updates, and testing kernel update for them though.
<Keybuk> ~
<barry> foundations-m-python-versions: building out py27stack ppa; python-defaults refactoring and adding 2.7 as supported (but not yet default); rebuilt several packages; now fixing python2.7-minimal bugs.  foundations-m-python-continuous-integration: unittest2 testing, bug reporting, etc; stdeb testing, bug reporting, etc; python-mkdebian testing (not gonna work). done.
<psurbhi> finished the following:
<psurbhi> 1) Spent some time in learning about  fstest and its usage. Spent some time debugging the device geometry that  grub uses and using the same for mkfs.btrfs for a loopback device.
<psurbhi> 2)  Following works through grub-fstest: ls, ls -lh, crc of a file. This  works for a btrfs filesystem created in a image provided the mkfs is  done  on the proper offset in accordance with fdisk -ul and then  subsequently, -o offset is used for mount
<psurbhi> 3) Need to test this  thoroughly. desperately needs caching.
<psurbhi> 4) Need to test cp and hex  (and other fs-test commands) and add caching support
<psurbhi> ..
<psurbhi> <done>
<doko> ok, mvo in vacation
<doko> I don't see outstanding items from last meeting
<doko> skipping feature freeze exceptions
 * ev feels left out - has my IRC bouncer been connected to this channel and I've just missed a bunch of messages?
<Keybuk> ev: clearly you're using the wrong bouncer
<ev> I'm using the same one as you!
<cjwatson> ev: looks like doko prodded you before you /joined
<cjwatson> 16:05 <doko> ev ?
<cjwatson> ...
<cjwatson> 16:08 -!- ev [~ev@ubuntu/member/evand] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
<doko> ev: go ahead with the lighning, didn't see you join
<ev> ah
<ev> working on running two debconfcommunicators in parallel, started hacking together a server based on geonames (type some random town and get a timezone back), reviewed the design specification and added more notes for michael, chatted with michael over some of them, began implementation of some of the functionality and started a conversation with legal about the installing ubuntu-restricted-extras bit.
<ev> --
<doko> are there any other specs which need to be finalized/approved until tomorrow?
<barry> doko: i have not heard anything definitive back from ubuntu-releases, re: py27
<cjwatson> ubuntu-release is pretty undermanned at the moment
<robbiew> is this the discussion about making 2.7 default for 10.10?
<barry> cjwatson: ah
<barry> robbiew: yes
<ev> seems like there are quite a few in https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu?searchtext=foundations-m-
<doko> yes, motu/ScottK doesn't like the idea
<barry> i know.  he favors supported but not default
<cjwatson> Keybuk: no upstart specs yet, I guess?
<barry> which is not as mavericky as i'd like, but his reasoning is sound and i could support that approach
<cjwatson> I do have the code to get them into the WI tracker (more or less), just need test cases for it :-)
<doko> barry: I'll try to ping him, maybe we can find the time to chat together late tonight
<cjwatson> of the foundations-m- ones, the ones that jump out as possible maverick candidates are foundations-m-usb-creator-bugfixer and foundations-m-software-center-backend?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: it's one of the things I appear to be unable to do, yes
<cjwatson> I don't know either of those well so maybe they're inappropriate
<barry> doko: +1
 * cjwatson fedexes Keybuk some davidm-strength coffee
<Keybuk> coffee wouldn't help, some prozac maybe? :p
<ev> whoops, missed that - usb-creator-bugfixer is now proposed for maverick
<cjwatson> ugh
<cjwatson> ev: and accepted
<ev> cjwatson: cheers
<cjwatson> Keybuk: let me know if you need assistance of the potted-plant variety
<Keybuk> potted plant?
<cjwatson> something inanimate to talk at
<robbiew> Keybuk: speaking of FedEx...what's up with those Dell Minis :)
<Keybuk> ahh
<doko> ok, any other spec business?
<Keybuk> robbiew: yet another thing I haven't done, sorry
<robbiew> moving on?
<doko> alpha2 bugs: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+bugs?field.milestone:list=27560
<cjwatson> I only saw two for us there, the silly version bugs
<cjwatson> Dylan's aware of the slideshow one, it'll be done as part of a more general update I think
<cjwatson> Keybuk: is it OK to just do the obvious 10.04 -> 10.10 change in plymouth, or do you want to do something more complete than that?
<cjwatson> like lsb_release at build time or something
<Keybuk> cjwatson: go ahead, I don't have any plymouth-related plans this cycle
<doko> and maybe one MIR. looking at this one
<cjwatson> Keybuk: ok
<doko> cjwatson: I might pester you with an archive rebuild (main) withe the CS GCC next week (and maybe a request trying to build a CD image)
<cjwatson> np
<robbiew> awlright then....
<doko> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/
<cjwatson> I did a rather measly one today
<dholbach> thanks doko :)
<doko> honestly, I don't know how to interpret the table now in the meeting. just looking at the "last commenters" isn't enough
<cjwatson> "last commenters" is a weird column because what I find I need to do with it is to *skip* the rows with names I recognise
<barry> if we do not have upload privs, is there anything we can still do with sponsoring?
<cjwatson> not a lot, realistically
<barry> cjwatson: what do the bold and italics mean in last comment column?
<cjwatson> there's a key at the bottoom
<cjwatson> *bottom
 * barry scrolls
<barry> ah, thanks
<cjwatson> anyway, not much more to discuss here, I think we should move on?
<robbiew> yes
<doko> don't see any business from activity reports
<doko> good news / bad news ?
 * robbiew was able to get approval for another headcount :)
<barry> yay!
<ev> hooray
<doko> so how many are now pending?
<ev> is it the secretary I've been clamoring for since I joined?
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> doko: what do you mean by pending?
<robbiew> we have one opening now
<Keybuk> ev: you don't need a secretary if you work from the office, you can have the design team do things for you
<ev> haha, somehow I doubt they'll fetch me coffee from Starbucks
<doko> robbiew: how many heads do we expect? one or more?
<doko> anyway, AOB?
<Keybuk> ev: I don't even know where there is a Starbucks anywhere near Millbank
<robbiew> doko: ah..expect one
<ev> Keybuk: vauxhall
 * robbiew played with burg this week...pretty cool
<cjwatson> damnit, shiny new test hardware requires US->UK converter and I don't have one
<Keybuk> robbiew: burg?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: converter or plug?
 * barry just saw a very close and very loud lightning strike
<robbiew> BURG stands for Brand-new Universal loadeR from GRUB.
<cjwatson> well, either, but the end for my own laptop doesn't fit the brick
<robbiew> Keybuk: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Burg
<robbiew> has some REALLY nice graphics support
<cjwatson> thankfully, mostly obsoleted by grub2 ;-)
<cjwatson> just need to put the themes together
<robbiew> yeah
<robbiew> if we could get the themes down...it would rock
<robbiew> http://code.google.com/p/burg/wiki/Screenshots
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://code.google.com/p/burg/wiki/Screenshots
<cjwatson> yup, will likely be working on at least some of that as part of foundations-m-cd-boot
<robbiew> the burg themes are slick
<robbiew> cjwatson: cool
<ev> wow, lets go with that first one and switch the desktop environment to twm
<cjwatson> there are a few basic widgets we don't have yet, some debate as to the best way to represent them so that things still work well with things like serial consoles
<robbiew> yeah...i figured there were corner cases not considered with it
<barry> ev: twm ftw!  (who remembers wool?)
<robbiew> the overall effect is very clean...with the subtle animations as you scroll though the OSes
<robbiew> anyway...that's all I had
<ev> barry: wool?
<robbiew> oh...and we are close to naming a release manager
<ev> yay
<robbiew> down to 2 candidates
<robbiew> "yay" indeed
<cjwatson> robbiew: wanna help design grub2 themes for the package?  there's only one person doing grub2 theming work at the moment (directhex)
<Keybuk> robbiew: did they not have a name before they applied?
<barry> ev: well, actually gwm.  wool was the lisp dialect that the wm ran
<ev> cjwatson: otto?
<robbiew> cjwatson: hmm...I'll take a look at it, sure
<robbiew> Keybuk: /very/ funny
<doko> ok, are we funished?
<robbiew> ev: yeah..that makes more sense
<cjwatson> ev: directhex => jo shields
<cjwatson> ev: or are you saying otto has been doing some?
<cjwatson> if so he hasn't told anyone :-)
<ev> robbiew: well that's not to say he has time to do it
<robbiew> sure
<ev> cjwatson: no, not at all
<ev> I just figured it was his realm more than anyone else's
<robbiew> but probably not worth waisting time on designing themes we know won't get used
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> ah, right.  I don't think it needs to bump out other design team things at the moment
<ev> but I am fully aware that getting some of his time is not the easiest task on the planet
<robbiew> anyway...I'll take a stab at it
<robbiew> I got a lot more time on my hands these days
<robbiew> ;)
 * cjwatson ponders an lplib script to reassign all his bugs to robbiew
<robbiew> heh
<ev> barry: ah, unfamiliar with that.  I was only just getting started when I used twm.
<doko> next chair?
<barry> ev: teh googles says the last update to its web page was mid 90's ;)
<ev> hahaha, awesome
<cjwatson> doko: rule from last meeting would make it you again ;-)
<cjwatson> so I guess obvious sanity check means we use the second from the shuffle list in that case, i.e. me
<Keybuk> I used to like olvwm
<ev> are we playing roulette with the chair now as well?
<doko> cjwatson: ok ... :-/
<doko> 3
<doko> 2
<barry> Keybuk: i remember that one
<doko> 1
<doko> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:53.
<robbiew> thanks doko
<psurbhi> doko, thanks
<doko> will shuffle better next time
<psurbhi> :)
<barry> doko: hack the script! :)
<cjwatson> doko: it's fine for it to be me :)
<barry> thanks doko
 * barry -> reboot intarwebs
<ev> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-17
<mpt> Noooooo, come back vish
<mpt> Hello godbyk and thorwil
<thorwil> hi mpt, godbyk
<mpt> [godbyk] idle 15:02:01, signon: Wed Jun 16 22:01:16
<mpt> hmm :-)
<mpt> So, this team seems to be shrinking
<mpt> Ivanka, Charline, and David are all busy with Canonical stuff today
<mpt> hi vish
<thorwil> hello vish. seems it's just mpt, you and i
<vish> hi
<vish> yay , meeting cancel then ;p
<thorwil> would we had a topic, even? besides the ux-pattern thing being a total fail?
<mpt> Well, I had two things in mind
<mpt> One was vish's situation with papercuts
<mpt> And the other was heuristic bug tagging
<mpt> But now maybe we have a more important one, how to increase team participation :-)
<thorwil> i though vish eats papercuts for breakfast?
<vish> mpt: ah yeah , i went through the papercuts and most of them seem to not require the gtk3 , so it shouldnt hurt us much
<mpt> Yes, he does, but Ubuntu 10.10 will be shipping the same version of Gnome as 10.04 did
<vish> mpt: + we can use your FTDAU , if you already have them sorted out
<mpt> vish, what sorting out are you looking for?
<vish> mpt: seemed like you already had a few FTDAU in your mind :)
<vish> so we could address those
<thorwil> what's FTDAU?
<mpt> Fails To Do Anything Useful
<mpt> a counterpart to the existing ftbfs = Fails To Build From Source
 * thorwil knows DAU as DÃ¼mmster Anzunehmender User = dumbest user to be expected
<mpt> ha
<vish> mpt: and david mentioned we can be clear about the gnome situation, we have nearly 200 confirmed+triaged papercuts..
<vish> we need people fixing them :s
<mpt> vish, the only ones I know of at the moment are the various prism-* apps, which don't lanch because they "Could not find compatible GRE between version 1.9.2 and 1.9.2.*." But every so often I install an application from Universe and it does nothing, or crashes on startup, or shows an empty window, or whatever.
<mpt> I haven't made a list.
<thorwil> simply broken packages are papercuts. too?
<mpt> thorwil, so the idea is that they're an important set of bugs to fix, even if they're not bugs that someone might experience in their first day using Ubuntu
<vish> mpt: ah cool,we can just add the FTDAU to a milestone ? once you can get a clearer definition of what it can cover?
<mpt> vish, I'm not sure what you mean by "add the FTDAU to a milestone"
<vish> have all those similar FTDAU bugs in one milestone , you mentioned prism-*  do we deal with each package as a bug?
<mpt> I was thinking more, announce the tag, talk to whoever we need to talk to to make it an "official tag" for Ubuntu, campaign for people to fix them
<vish> wfm :)
<mpt> thorwil, what did you mean by "the ux-pattern thing being a total fail"?
<vish> mpt: we can have a milestone for "improving software center experience" , we encourage user to find all such packages? and try to sort them out?
<thorwil> mpt: a bit of editing by aday, nobody else picking it up: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ui-patterns
<thorwil> mpt: so it's either i continue all by myself, or nothing happens. it will be nothing happens, actually as i have more rewarding activities
<mpt> vish, oh, you mean a milestone within the Papercuts project? That's an interesting idea. I was thinking of it as more of a long-term thing, like FTBFS is.
<vish> mpt: yeah , people already like tagging bugs as papercuts , once this becomes more familiar , we can continue FTDAU long-term too
<djsiegel> (Sorry I'm late, guys!)
<mpt> thorwil, it's a success if subsequent revisions to interface guidelines take those patterns into account. It's a failure if subsequent revisions don't take those patterns into account. If there haven't been any revisions yet, it might be too early to declare failure. :-)
<mpt> vish, ok. I've already started using a "metadata" tag for bad package descriptions that show up in USC, too.
<mpt> hi djsiegel
<thorwil> mpt: the idea was to get people from the ayatana list working on that. after a week without response, i'm sure nothing will happen from that side
<mpt> ah, ok
<djsiegel> I have a few things to mention during the meeting about UX Advocates if we have time at the end.
<mpt> thorwil, compiling design guidelines is a highly unsexy task, so I wouldn't be too disappointed about that.
<mpt> djsiegel, UX advocates, go
<djsiegel> ok, awesome!
<mpt> Keeping in mind there's just ~5 of us here :-)
<djsiegel> Ok, who is here btw?
<thorwil> djsiegel: vish mpt thorwil
<vish> mpt: yeah , papercuts had a lot of bugs filed for bad "metadata" , we can polish them as well , people are very excited about the software store now. we can just use the momentum.
<djsiegel> So, OpenUsability.org is creating a project called Summer of Usability
<mpt> 4 â 5
<vish> err, S *center
<djsiegel> they want to pay a bunch of HCI students $1000 to work on a well defined usability task in an open source project
<mpt> I think they did this last year too
<djsiegel> cool
<djsiegel> so we need to channel this energy into UX Advocates
<djsiegel> I am speaking to the guy organizing the project
<djsiegel> would be awesome to get 10 paid UX Advocates grouped with various OSS projects
<mpt> hm
<mpt> So would they be short-term UX advocates?
<djsiegel> historically 50% of their sponsored students stick with the OSS project they work with during the summer
<mpt> ah, cool
<djsiegel> so if you guys could check out openusability.org and just be aware for now, that would be excellent
<djsiegel> and be aware of http://openetherpad.org/uxadvocates1
<mpt> There is no EtherPad document here.
<thorwil> http://openetherpad.org/uxadvocates
<mpt> ok
<djsiegel> oops
<mpt> Thanks djsiegel
<mpt> So, before next week's meeting, I will:
<mpt> * arrange an agenda in advance
<mpt> * e-mail a reminder to everyone
<djsiegel> mpt: Jan-Christoph Borchard wants to work on USC and Update Manager
<djsiegel> sorry for interrupting
<mpt> * invite a couple more people to join the team. :-)
<mpt> no worries
<mpt> Thank you thorwil and vish for turning up despite my neglect
<vish> ;)
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> mpt: i'm not surprised, either. although, personally, i don' consider compiling guidelines that unsexy. it's just too expensive in time and though for me, currently
<mpt> thorwil, oh sure, it's fascinating for me too, but we're weird
<thorwil> yeah
<wers> oops i'm late
<thorwil> wers: it's ok, mpt didn't close the meeting, yet :)
<mpt> haha
<wers> hahaha
<mpt> Somebody e-mail me a gavel
<thorwil> not email, but this will do: http://www.canyon-news.com/artman2/uploads/2/gavel.gif
<thorwil> wers: so mpt and vish talked about papercuts and tagging bugs. i pointed out the trying to get ayatana list dwellers to work on ux patterns failed.
<thorwil> wers: djsiegel brought up http://openusability.org/, who will do another Summer of Usability, paying a few students to work on OSS projects
<thorwil> arg
<thorwil> wers: so mpt and vish talked about papercuts and tagging bugs. i pointed out the trying to get ayatana list dwellers to work on ux patterns failed.
<thorwil> wers: so mpt and vish talked about papercuts and tagging bugs. i pointed out the trying to get ayatana list dwellers to work on ux patterns failed.
<thorwil> wers: djsiegel brought up http://openusability.org/, who will do another Summer of Usability, paying a few students to work on OSS projects
<wers> got dc
<wers> cool thorwil . i got your two messages after reconnecting
<thorwil> np. so meeting closed for real, i'd say, if further discussion -> #ayatana
 * thorwil -> coffee
<wers> thorwil, thanks man!
<vish> thorwil confirms he is Brad Pitt Of ubuntu ;)
<IdleOne> membership meeting tonight?
<easter_egg> IdleOne, yes
<IdleOne> easter_egg: thank you
<easter_egg> IdleOne, in one hour
<IdleOne> I'll be here with bells and whistles on :)
<Ursinha> :)
<easter_egg> IdleOne, haha
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-18
<dinda> meeting time right?
<pleia2> yep
<jiboumans> o/
<easter_egg> yes o/
<dinda> woohoo, I got the time/date right this time
<rww> \o
<IdleOne> o/
<dudanogueira> hi there!
<IdleOne> dinda: me too :)
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:01. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for Thursday, June 17 @ 23:59 UTC.  The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<pleia2> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<pleia2> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<pleia2> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<pleia2> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<pleia2> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<pleia2> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<pleia2> [TOPIC] IdleOne Membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  IdleOne Membership
<pleia2> IdleOne: please introduce yourself and provide a link to your wiki :)
<IdleOne> Hello everybody. My name is IdleOne aka John (in the Matrix) you can see my wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/idleone not sure what else I can besides I love ubuntu. I am Ubuntu and try to live Ubuntu.
<IdleOne> I can say*
<dudanogueira> IdleOne: are you form Montreal?
<IdleOne> I am yes
<IdleOne> boen and raised
<pleia2> IdleOne: can you discuss the main places where you're involved?
<IdleOne> born*
<dudanogueira> been there on 8.10 release, I think
<IdleOne> pleia2: I recently got ops status in #ubuntu and I also do some translation for the Ubuntu Women Project wiki. I admit I have been slacking lately on that :/
<IdleOne> I also do testing for +1
<IdleOne> bug reporting and such
<Pendulum> IdleOne is being a bit modest there he started the translations for the Ubuntu Women wiki
<IdleOne> :) thank you Pendulum
<Pendulum> and got that part of the project organized
<dinda> IdleOne: wiki page is very well done and that pic!  kind of says it all :)
<IdleOne> dinda: yeah it is a nice touch huh :)
<pleia2> IdleOne: the translation of the code of conduct had sorta fallen off my radar, was there any progress made with that?
<IdleOne> pleia2: right now it is in the hands of Canonical and I am not certain at what stage it is. I am hoping to get some more time and get back on the ball with that soon
<pleia2> great
<IdleOne> Mark did unofficially approve the idea though
<dinda> IdleOne: who did it get sent to?
 * pleia2 nods
<IdleOne> dinda: I sent it to the IRCC
<pleia2> er, CC?
<IdleOne> yes CC
<IdleOne> sorry
<pleia2> it was agreed that having it in multiple languages was good, I just wasn't sure where it went from there
<dinda> hmm possible it got buried in emails, might want to add it to the next CC meeting agenda??
<IdleOne> So yeah I really hope that we can get the CoC translated into as many languages as possible
<IdleOne> dinda: I can do that
<pleia2> IdleOne: or feel free to reply to the thread you sent a few months back, I really was just asking about status because I was curious :) wasn't sure where the action items left off
<dinda> IdleOne: it might help move it forward
<IdleOne> pleia2: will do
<dudanogueira> IdleOne: looks like you are together with the folks at Ubuntu-QC, right?
<IdleOne> pleia2: I think the issue was making sure the translation team could take over the effort and organize the translations
<maco2> hi i'm here now. my quassel is syncing right now. will catch backscroll in a minute
<IdleOne> dinda: yes, I am
<IdleOne> attended a couple of meetings
<IdleOne> errr events that is
<IdleOne> also elected my self the unofficial welcome wagon in #ubuntu-qc
<IdleOne> it's a small channel so whenever I can I try to welcome the new people in the channel
<dudanogueira> that's good :) Just saw on my records, I was on the saint sulpice bar for the 8.04 release. were you there?
<IdleOne> dudanogueira: at the time I lived in Pennsylvania
<IdleOne> so no I was not
<pleia2> [VOTE] IdleOne membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  IdleOne membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dudanogueira> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<maco2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
 * IdleOne +1's himself :)
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> #endvote
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> congrats and welcome IdleOne :)
 * IdleOne stops sweating :)
<dudanogueira> welcome :)
<pleia2> ZandreBran: are you here?
<IdleOne> Thank you!
<ZandreBran> yes
<Pendulum> Congrats IdleOne!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] ZandreBran membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  ZandreBran membership
<ZandreBran> Hi Everyone, my name is AndrÃ© BrandÃ£o IÂ´m 38 years old, IÂ´m a programmer and have been using ubuntu since 2006; my nick name is the Brazillian community is Zandre Bran (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZandreBran).
<ZandreBran> In 2007, I signed the Ubuntu Code of Conduct and since then I have been helping and supporting the usersin the brazillian discussion list by the ubuntu-br@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list. I develoiped a plugin for firefox and on my website you can find a direct search for the list.
<ZandreBran> Currently, with the help of Alysson Neto we are reactivating the documentation team of Brazil, and are in the process of distrubuting the work more organised way because the team is formed. This is my second job today:)
<ZandreBran> i am also working with Fabiano Fonseca, we are making a remix of ubunto named linuxacessivel.org it is like "VINUX" linuxacessivel.org is for people having dificiency visua, the "ORCA" cofigures from the start of instalation for the Portugese language.
<dudanogueira> Ursinha: :)
<ZandreBran> This is it, a resume of my work in the Ubuntu brasillian community, any questions?
<pleia2> lots of great testimonials :)
 * pleia2 likes to see!
<Ursinha> I have no questions, but if you allow me I'd like to point the great work ZandreBran does for the Brazilian community
<ZandreBran> pleia2, thank toy
<ZandreBran> you
<dudanogueira> ZandreBran: I took a close look on your mailinglist answers. I really liked it. It's an example of who it should be done.
<pleia2> Ursinha: oh certainly
<dudanogueira> Precise, polite, with good informations and pointing to the right resources. Congrats :)
<Ursinha> what dudanogueira said
<Ursinha> I wish we had more of those :)
<dudanogueira> Ursinha: just said hi :) Need to talk with you later :)
<easter_egg> ZandreBran is a good guy :)
<ZandreBran> :)
<Ursinha> dudanogueira, sure, ping pvt later :)
<dudanogueira> ZandreBran: are you willing to help the ubuntu-br on the "administrative" matters?
<maco2> wow yeah your testimonials rock :)
<Ursinha> ZandreBran, you won't be forced to, we just need reinforcements :)
<ZandreBran> dudanogueira, yes, or not. this is one of my goals when I entered.
<dinda> ZandreBran: wow, that sounds like a great project, linuxacessivel.org - great work there
<ZandreBran> dinda, thank you
<maco2> ZandreBran: are you involved with the ubuntu accessibility team at all?
<maco2> ZandreBran: or for that matter... are you aware that its starting back up after a couple years of being in a coma?
<ZandreBran> maco2, no not yet the project is very young
<Pendulum> ZandreBran: come join us in #ubuntu-accessibility
<maco2> ZandreBran: you should join #ubuntu-accessibility and talk to Pendulum. she seems to be running the show as regards getting a11y working decently in ubuntu
<maco2> wahh im too slow!
<pleia2> [VOTE] ZandreBran membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ZandreBran membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<maco2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<ZandreBran> maco2, thanks for the tip
<Pendulum> maco2: no, I was being slow, I meant to say it earlier. (and I am aware of ZandreBran's project, just not of the details)
<dudanogueira> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> congrats and welcome dudanogueira! :)
<dudanogueira> thank you :)
<dudanogueira> hehehe
<pleia2> err haha
<pleia2> ZandreBran!!
<pleia2> congrats :)
<Pendulum> ZandreBran: congrats!
<IdleOne> Congrats ZandreBran
<dudanogueira> ZandreBran: welcome!!!!!! Crontags!
<dinda> congratulations ZandreBran!
<ZandreBran> thanks all
<dudanogueira> ops, Congrats :)
<pleia2> ScottL: are you here?
<ScottL> pleia2, yes
<IdleOne> dudanogueira: Crontags!! I love it!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] ScottL Membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  ScottL Membership
<ScottL> Hi, Scott Lavender here.  My wiki is at:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender
<maco2> ScottL: how did you get the pretty little icons? i'm jealous of your wiki page
<ScottL> Mainly I attend to Ubuntu Studio matters and work with Debian Multimedia Team as well
<ScottL> maco, in the open source tradition, i used someone else's work of course :)
<ScottL> errr maco2 ^^^
<IdleOne> ScottK: wow at the wiki
<dudanogueira> IdleOne: hehehe, quick typing, little keyboard :)
<pleia2> ScottL: always love seeing ubuntu and debian projects working together, thank you for that :)
<ScottL> pleia2, thank you, persia has taught me well that we should push bug reports and patches back to Debian
<dinda> ScottL: are you a musician? is that why so much work on the Studio project?
<pleia2> hooray persia
<ScottL> dinda, yes
<ScottL> pleia2, i think persia is still on vacation
 * pleia2 nods
<dinda> ScottL: nice, great project work
<maco> ooh JACK MIR? crimsun must love you...
<ScottL> thank you dinda
<ScottL> lol maco
<pleia2> we did an ubuntu studio install at a recent lucid installfest, the woman whose computer had been usin it for quite some time and just having trouble with "weirdness" in 64-bit (ended up being bad ram, we got it sorted :))
<pleia2> great little spinoff
<pleia2> [VOTE] ScottL membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ScottL membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dudanogueira> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> congrats and welcome ScottL! :)
<maco> ScottL: thank you for making this so easy with that incredibly thorough wiki page
<dudanogueira> welcome aboard!
<pleia2> easter_egg: are you here?
 * TheMuso sees he is too late, but congratulates ScottL.
<ScottL> thank you pleia2 , maco , dudanogueira  :)
<maco> TheMuso: hi :)
<dudanogueira> ScottL: congrats for your job :)
<ScottL> thank you as well TheMuso
<IdleOne> Congrats ScottK
<easter_egg> yes =]
<IdleOne> !!
<IdleOne> err ScottL
<jiboumans> I think ScottK's been here for a while :)
<jiboumans> but congrats ScottL!
<Ursinha> haha
<maco> jiboumans: they are a perpetual source of confusion. StevenK as well
<pleia2> [TOPIC] easter_egg membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  easter_egg membership
<ScottL> thanks IdleOne , jiboumans
 * IdleOne hands easter_egg the bells and whistles :)
 * Ursinha cheers for easter_egg 
<easter_egg> Good night everyone. Glad to see the concil again.
<easter_egg> As you already know me, I will dispense with some details and I'll go straight to the point.
<easter_egg> I'm keeping the same job with hackfests, here are some pictures about:
<easter_egg> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajqueiroz/sets/72157624156545676/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajqueiroz/sets/72157624156545676/
<easter_egg> The next event will happen on this Saturday and it will be open to all Brazillian people, using Lernid. The brazilian teams of documentation, that ZandreBran is member, and translation were invited.
<easter_egg> I still verbally helping people to find a short path with bugreport and with their own focus, through hackfests and irc. An example of this would be gbrandao, which has become a machine for making quality documentation.
<pleia2> thank you for coming back with pictures and testimonials :)
<easter_egg> Whell, questions?
<Ursinha> I'm pleased to see the great work people are doing reactivating docs team in Brazil
<easter_egg> Someone like that I repeat something that I say in last meeting?
<easter_egg> said*
<Ursinha> I "met" easter_egg in last FISL here in Brazil, and he's very passionate what he does
<Ursinha> that's important to make things work, imo
<easter_egg> ahh!
<easter_egg> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajqueiroz/4648663494/in/set-72157624156545676/
<easter_egg> thats me
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajqueiroz/4648663494/in/set-72157624156545676/
<pleia2> thanks Ursinha :)
<easter_egg> for know
<dudanogueira> easter_egg: were you on last year's FISL?
<easter_egg> dudanogueira, yes =]
<dudanogueira> easter_egg: Oh, did we meet?
<Ursinha> dudanogueira, he was hidden :P
<easter_egg> hmmm...
<easter_egg> I think not
<dudanogueira> hehehe, we'll surely have a next opportunity :)
<pleia2> [VOTE] easter_egg membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  easter_egg membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<easter_egg> Ursinha, my nick is easter_egg
<easter_egg> you know now
<dudanogueira> +1
<Ursinha> easter_egg, I knew before :P
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<easter_egg> why
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> congrats easter_egg :)
<Ursinha> weee
<jiboumans> Congratulations easter_egg
<dinda> congrats easter_egg!
<IdleOne> congrats easter_egg :)
<easter_egg> thanks
<dudanogueira> One more!! That's good!!! Congrats :)
 * Ursinha hugs easter_egg 
<easter_egg> o/
<pleia2> [TOPIC] jiboumans membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  jiboumans membership
<jiboumans> Greetings, my name is Jos Boumans and I've been the Ubuntu Server manager now since November last year. As such, I've participated in 2 UDS' and guided the server team through the delivery of 10.04 and now the planning and delivery of 10.10.
<easter_egg> thanks everyone
<jiboumans> In a previous life I've contributed significantly to the Perl programming language (about 2% of the core code), set up automated packaging of Perl modules for Debian, run the CPAN.org DNS and contributed to such applications as Memcached, Gearman and Varnish.
<jiboumans> More Ubuntu information about me at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JosBoumans and https://launchpad.net/~jib and I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
<IdleOne> jiboumans: Thank you for the awesome work you folks do :)
<jiboumans> IdleOne: it's our pleasure, and I mean that :)
<IdleOne> jiboumans: server team doesn't get enough praise imo
<pleia2> jiboumans: outside the scope of your job within server, is there other involvement within the community, participating with a loco perhaps? :)
<jiboumans> IdleOne: we're seeing some strong pickup in the media now and it's great to see the positivity that's coming from outside the community now too
<jiboumans> pleia2: I've just moved to San Francisco a few weeks ago
<maco> ah so you should be at the geeknic that pleia2 is attending soon?
<jiboumans> but I was lucky to be here when 10.04 was released, so i managed to attend the release party at the thirsty bear with Jono
<pleia2> jiboumans: great, it's beautiful here :)
<pleia2> ah, I was there too
<jiboumans> i'm still getting my footing on the west coast, but i'm looking forward to it
<pleia2> I'm holding an Ubuntu Hour on Tuesday evening over at The Roastery, about a block from Thirsty Bear
<pleia2> please feel free to join us in #ubuntu-california :)
<jiboumans> pleia2: is that a recurring thing? I'm down the vally next week unfortunately, but it sounds like great fun!
<pleia2> jiboumans: yep, 4th tuesday of the month :)
<dinda> jiboumans: I'm trying to determine which of your work with Ubuntu is simply b/c it's your job and what part is b/c you want to contribute to Ubuntu aside from your primary paying job
 * jiboumans goes to add to his calendar
<jiboumans> dinda: running the server team is of course part of my job. i think the bit outside ubuntu that got me the job is my involvement in Perl/Perl for debian and a lot of the web technologies
<jiboumans> you'll see from the Maverick blueprints that we're bringing a lot of those to Ubuntu
<dinda> jiboumans: I meant trying to determine if your work in Ubuntu and wanting to be a member are just b/c of your day job
<maco> so before moving to SF, were you at all involved with the loco in your old area (if there was one) ?
<jiboumans> maco: there was none, I was living in a small town in Poland, believe it or not
<dinda> jiboumans: I'm looking for a track record of community and volunteer in addition to your paid work
<maco> O_O quite the move
<jiboumans> before that, I worked mostly on and in Debian professionally
<dinda> jiboumans: did you volunteer with the server team before taking your current role?
<jiboumans> dinda: like I mentioned in my application, most of my contributions have been upstream while working on Debian & Ubuntu. I've had less involvement with Ubuntu before then
<jiboumans> dinda: mostly for bug fixing on apps on Ubuntu
<jiboumans> my previous company had an extensive cloud deployment based on Ubuntu
<jiboumans> nowadays, i spend about 12 hours/day working and hacking on ubuntu
<pleia2> nice :)
<jiboumans> some work related, some because it's fun and interesting :)
<dinda> jiboumans: I work for Canonical too but my day job has nothing to do with community, so my volunteer time, like now is separate from that role
<dinda> jiboumans: do you hack on any pet projects?
<jiboumans> dinda: yup, like i mentioned before, i run the perl to debian autopackaging project for example
<jiboumans> other than that, it's contributions to upstream
<pleia2> [VOTE] jiboumans membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  jiboumans membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dudanogueira> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dudanogueira. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<maco> +1 (but go hang out with your new loco!)
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> jiboumans: yes, looking forward to meeting you! :)
<IdleOne> Congrats jiboumans !
<jiboumans> pleia2: likewise - i'm at velocity next week if you happen to be there. otherwise, next time!
<jiboumans> thanks all
<plars> grats jiboumans :)
<pleia2> [TOPIC] plars membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  plars membership
<plars> Hi
<plars> I'm Paul Larson.  I'm from Texas.  I've been a long time user of Ubuntu, and started actively contributing sometime around April of 2009.
<plars> Mostly in QA related things.  I'm a member of bugcontrol, have participated in 5-a-day when time allows, done a lot of iso testing, improved tests, etc.
<plars> In general, I've been using Linux since 1993
<plars> I've done a lot of kernel testing in the past, was a maintainer of LTP for a long while, setup a fair number of Linux clusters (including some that have been on the Top500), and even done some IO device driver work on ppc
<plars> oh
<plars> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulLarson
<plars> forgot :)
<dudanogueira> sorry people, gotta go! THank you! And congratulations for the new members :)
<maco> uh oh
<pleia2> no worries, we still have quorum
<pleia2> plars: are you involved with the texas loco?
<nhandler> Hello
<maco> nhandler to the rescue!
<plars> pleia2: well, the Texas loco has been starting to be a little more active lately, but as far as I can tell, hasn't been terribly active as a whole group
<plars> pleia2: I tried to encourage the ones local to me to start doing more
<pleia2> plars: they actually had a few release events, and a booth at texas linux fest :)
<plars> pleia2: but so far not a whole lot has come of it... we did have some participation by a few at txlf
<plars> right, was just mentioning that :)
<maco> pleia2: texas is a big place!
<plars> was good to meet thebwt there
<nhandler> plars: I didn't see any testimonials on your wiki. Is anyone here to chear for you?
<pleia2> thebwt is great, were you at the canonical or loco booth?
<plars> nhandler: I didn't actively seek them out, I was unclear on whether that was a real requirement
<nhandler> plars: It isn't necessarily a requirement, but it is useful, as it allows us to see what some of the people who have worked with you have to say
<plars> pleia2: I hung around both since they were right next to one another and tried to answer questions as I could, but I wasn't actively manning either (I had my 9 yr. old son with me)
<plars> gotta start 'em early right? :)
<dinda> plars: what part of the state are you in?
<pleia2> hooray for kids at linux fests! :)
<plars> dinda: Austin area... Round Rock specifically
<pleia2> plars: outside the scope of what you would call your "day job" - what portions of the community are you involved in, if any?
<plars> hmm, I try to maintain my connections with LTP, occasionally answering some questions or doing patches there
<plars> general evangelism.. etc to friends/family
<plars> txlf as mentioned earlier
<plars> some of the things that I've done, with the excuse of being related to my day job have more personal reasons as well
<maco> pl<tab> (one of you!) when are you gonna stop being as confusing as ScottK and ScottL?
<plars> for instance, some of the packaging I've done, like with moserial... was mainly to learn packaging because it's an area where I'd like to do more
<plars> was not really something I needed to do for my job
<plars> but it helped there too, turned out to be something useful for me
<plars> also the 5-a-day stuff that I did was not a requirement
<pleia2> cool
<plars> maco: yeah, I get pings intended for pleia2 late at night a lot :)
<IdleOne> hahaha
<nhandler> plars: I know you said that you chose not to ask for testimonials, but if you wanted to, do you feel there are people outside of Canonical who you could go to?
<plars> nhandler: I hadn't given it much thought actually, but I think there would be some, yes
<IdleOne> plars: Seems you are more a behind the scenes contributor, any irc channels we can find you in where you do some support?
<plars> on freenode, I mostly hang out in #ubuntu-arm
<plars> also #ltp, but not much normally goes on there
<plars> and not specifically ubuntu related
<dinda> plars: what's your favorite area to contribute in Ubuntu?
<plars> dinda: probably testing right now, I've always enjoyed finding problems before they become worse, helping to narrow them down to a solution
<nhandler> plars: I notice most of your future plans are QA related. Do you plan to continue bug triage / packaging ?
<plars> although I'm trying to expand that, as mentioned earlier
<plars> triaging is interesting, but I would much rather learn more about packaging and do some more exploration in that area
<plars> sometimes it seems like the archives must have everything, but there are plenty of neat new things every day that we don't have yet :)
<dinda> plars: ok, sounds like you've got a good track record of behind the scenes work and good future plans
<pleia2> [VOTE] plars membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  plars membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> [endvote]
<maco> plars: my email archives of bugsquad & bugcontrol mailing lists just made up for your lack of testimonials in my head ;-)
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> congrats and welcome plars :)
<IdleOne> Congrats plars!
<plars> thanks :)
<dinda> congrats plars!
<maco> or rather served as testimonials i guess :)
<maco> congrats and welcome :)
 * maco glares at pleia2 for having already used that phrasing
<pleia2> maco: it's a script
<pleia2> (just kidding)
<nhandler> Congratulations to all of the new members
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:24.
<IdleOne> yay \o/
<easter_egg> =]
<ZandreBran> :)
<pleia2> members will be added to the team soon,and announcement sent out
<IdleOne> pleia2:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda has a link to the CC website but it leads to http://www.ubuhntu.com/community/processes/council
<pleia2> argh, again, this website restructuring is making me crazy
<IdleOne> hehe
<IdleOne> btw the page it would/should lead to does not seem to exist
<elky> someone can't spell, that's why.
<pleia2> elky: even ubuntu.com one doesn't exist anymore, we all now link to /governance
<ajmitch> rather amusing misspelling there
<elky> ah
<pleia2> IdleOne: can you cancel your edit?
<pleia2> or make your change :)
<IdleOne> just did
<IdleOne> sorry
<IdleOne> cancel the edit that is
<maco> ajmitch: its misspelled like how akgraner pronounces it
<elky> meanie.
<IdleOne> Nelson Mandela pronounces it ooboontoo, that is good enough for me :)
<ajmitch> maco: it seems to be a common thing
<elky> aubergine on the other hand...
<pleia2> IdleOne: sorted, thanks :) and it really is best to follow up with the existing thread for the CoC translations thing, that way we have all context
<maco> ajmitch: yeah the entire ubuntu-uk podcast team seems to pronounce it that way
<maco> i go by what IdleOne just said... the mandela video that was on the dapper cd
<IdleOne> pleia2: seems I have been removed from ML or google is treating it as spam
<IdleOne> not sure
<pleia2> IdleOne: can you forward me the error you're getting? the list should be open (I get TOOOOOONS of spam from it)
<IdleOne> pleia2: not getting any errors, just not getting any mail from it
<pleia2> IdleOne: wait, what list?
<IdleOne> CC
<pleia2> there hasn't been any discussion on the topic since the last time you were Cced on a message
<IdleOne> let me check my archives
<pleia2> (and we should take this dicussion elsewhere ;))
<IdleOne> indeed
<seb128> hey
<robbiew> Luuuuuueeeeeeeeeeeeeet's get ready to ruuumble! (ding ding ding ding)
<kirkland> o/
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra> moo+
 * kirkland is covering for ttx
<robbiew> kirkland: ack
 * fader_ is covering for marjo.
<robbiew> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/Agenda
<robbiew> So looking at the burn-downs
<robbiew>    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/FeatureStatus
<robbiew> the individual TEAM ones for A2 aren't that bad
<robbiew> the ALL alpha 2 gives me nightmares
<robbiew> but I suspect it's because the trend line started before we had all work items scoped out
<robbiew> and it's also grabbing work items from folks not in any of the teams
<robbiew> plus Jono has his A2 chart a little "off"
<robbiew> lol
<ogra> yeah,. definately something wrong with the trend line, pitti can adjust that
<robbiew> yeah...so I'm not too worries
 * ogra was about to ask him for arm 
<robbiew> worried
<robbiew> okay...so let's jump to it
<Riddell> hi
<robbiew> [TOPIC] QA
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA
<robbiew> Riddell: hi
 * fader_ waves.
<fader_> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<fader_> Laptops/Netbooks:
<fader_>     Passed:   18 (28%)    Failed:    0 ( 0%)    Untested: 46 (72%)
<fader_> Servers:
<fader_>     Passed:   48 (79%)    Failed:    0 ( 0%)    Untested: 13 (21%)
<fader_> Desktops:
<fader_>     Passed:   8 (73%)    Failed:   0 ( 0%)    Untested: 3 (27%)
<fader_> The Broadcom NIC issue on servers we had last week has been fixed.  A few servers are installing but not returning results, which I am looking into now.
<fader_> The lack of laptop results is due to a proxy issue in the lab.  cyphermox is working on this and will get it fixed ASAP.
<fader_> Alpha 2 Status:
<fader_> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-platform-qa-maverick-alpha-2.html
<fader_> qa-maverick-automated-server-testing pushed out to alpha-3 due to higher priority UEC testing work items
<fader_> all other specs are on track for alpha2 or completed
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-platform-qa-maverick-alpha-2.html
<fader_> That's all I've got today, modulo any questions
<robbiew> you answered mine (about the low laptop results)
<robbiew> questions?
<fader_> Yeah, that's environmental... something has broken in the setup in the lab and cyphermox is pulling his hair out trying to get it fixed
<robbiew> thanks fader_
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Security
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security
<robbiew> jdstrand: around?  anything to report
<jdstrand> o/
<robbiew> beyond the usual...kick ass work on CVEs and such :P
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> While we are still working through updates, our team did get to some dev work this week. Highlights include openssl and libvirt merges along with upstreaming of kees' kernel delta for maverick.
<jdstrand> We have no milestoned bugs, and we followed up on our release-targeted bugs and are either waiting on feedback from reporters/upstream or time to fix them.
<jdstrand> that's pretty much it
 * robbiew is still trying to make use of http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/graphs/
<robbiew> I'm determined to come up with the perfect chart!!!!
<robbiew> lol
<jdstrand> hehe
<robbiew> any questions for Security?
<robbiew> thnks jdstrand
<jdstrand> sure, np
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel
<ogasawara> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the first URL below,
<ogasawara> including the item(s) called out in the agenda.  Our burndown chart for
<ogasawara> Alpha2 is at the third URL, and our overall burndown chart is at the fourth:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone maverick-alpha-2
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone maverick-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<robbiew> ogasawara type SO fast
<ogasawara> heh
<ogasawara> On the items noted in the agenda, the status is as follows:
<ogasawara> * Bug 591707
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 591707 in openoffice.org (Ubuntu) "Buttons don't work on presenter screen" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/591707
<ogasawara>  - Tim is currently assigned to this bug.  We're still waiting for
<ogasawara>    feedback from the bug reporter as to whether the BIOS upgrade that
<ogasawara>    was suggested by Intel made any difference.  We'll likely have to
<ogasawara>    re-target this to an Alpha3 milestone if we don't hear back soon.
<ogasawara> Uhh, that's not the right bug
<robbiew> whoops...my fault on the agenda
<robbiew> oh wait...that's just weird
<ogasawara> wow, something is weird there
<robbiew> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/591707
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/591707
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 591707 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "After upgrade lucid -> maverick eth0 interface is gone" [High,In progress]
<seb128> yeah, ubottu seems to be buggy for some days
<seb128> it's mixing bugs titles sometime
<robbiew> nice
<ogasawara> ok, I'll move along
<ogasawara> * Bug 564559
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 564559 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "URGENT for upcoming release: Resolutions requiring dual link DVI on radeon result in no display" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/564559
<ogasawara>  - It looks like this was for a Lucid SRU and the Maverick nomination
<ogasawara>    was added just a few days ago for some reason.  I've confirmed that
<ogasawara>    the Maverick kernel already contains the necessary patch, see comment
<ogasawara>    #24, and so have closed the Maverick task as Fix Released.
<robbiew> ack
<ogasawara> * Bug 591941
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/591941)
<ogasawara> nice
<ogasawara>  - Mathieu is assigned to this bug.  He's currently working with the TI
<ogasawara>    developers and they've narrowed it down to a DMA related issue, see
<ogasawara>    comment #1.  It's unknown if a fix will land in time for Alpha2 so
<ogasawara>    we've bumped the milestone out to Alpha3 as it does not appear to be
<ogasawara>    an Alpha2 release blocker.
<robbiew> http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/591941
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/591941
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 591941 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "SDHC card not recognized" [High,In progress]
<ogasawara> As a general status, we have rebased with the upstream 2.6.35-rc3
<ogasawara> kernel.  This is available for testing in the latest linux 2.6.35-4.5
<ogasawara> maverick upload.  We are also below the burdown chart overall but above
<ogasawara> our Alpha2 burdown chart with 46% work items complete.
<ogasawara> Questions?
<robbiew> \o/
<robbiew> thanks ogasawara
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Foundations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations
<cjwatson> Colourised work item status: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<cjwatson> We're more or less on the trend line for alpha-2, but rather more by postponement than implementation, so alpha-3 is going to be fairly full.  We're noticeably above our overall trend line.
<cjwatson> The three GSoC usb-creator blueprints have been pushed out to alpha-3.
<cjwatson> foundations-m-686-compile still needs investigation of the libc regression on Geodes (at least originally due to NOPL instructions being emitted incorrectly), and of course needs a write-up (I've been bugging doko about this).  The core change is done though.
<cjwatson> barry is well underway with foundations-m-robust-python-packaging, now that we've AIUI agreed to support 2.6 and 2.7 but to keep 2.6 as the default.  Several work items have been pushed to alpha-3.
<cjwatson> (2.6 as the default - "probably", anyway)
<barry> yep
<cjwatson> foundations-m-uefi-support is almost all done, with the exception of a few work items that really depend on foundations-m-cd-boot (it's all intertwined) and so have been pushed out to alpha-3.
<cjwatson> That's just in time for Manoj Iyer to show it off at the UEFI Plugfest next week :-)
<cjwatson> also, while it's not on the agenda, foundations-m-btrfs-support is now done to the point of being able to do a manual install with btrfs / and ext[234] /boot (with tomorrow's CD images).  There are a lot of optional work items in that spec, and Surbhi Palande is still working on making btrfs / with no separate /boot possible.
<robbiew> cool
<cjwatson> I think that's all
 * robbiew will try it out on his Dell Mini 9 test box
<robbiew> questions for Foundations?
<robbiew> thanks cjwatson
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Server
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server
 * kirkland is covering for ttx
<kirkland> Our updated release status is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<kirkland> 6 Alpha2-milestoned bugs there
<kirkland> mostly UEC-related
<kirkland> Alpha2 Specs at http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html
<kirkland> Critical/High Specs at < 70% completion
<kirkland> server-maverick-uec-testing 20% Blocked by rig availability, not affected by freeze though
<kirkland> server-maverick-cloud-init 33% Spec is late, might have to drop less-important features
<kirkland> server-maverick-uec-eucalyptus-next 40% Representing Alpha2-milestoned bugs to solve (should move along a bit better now)
<kirkland> server-maverick-hypervisor 53% Mostly triage tasks left, not affected by freeze
<kirkland> and 3 more at 67%
<kirkland> Medium/Low Specs < 50% completion include:
<kirkland> server-maverick-cloud-utils 0% Was transfered to new assignee, should still be completed on time
<kirkland> server-maverick-uec-provisioning 15% Mostly docs tasks, can be completed during freeze
<kirkland> server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades 29% Mostly a few investigation tasks, can be completed during freeze
<kirkland> server-maverick-new-stacks 33% Items left about sponsoring new packages to universe
<kirkland> there is one bug that we need kernel help on
<kirkland> Bug 588861 is certainly a kernel issue. We hope to be able to bisect the version that regressed and have a reproducer script.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "SDHC card not recognized" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<kirkland> (description is not correct, ubottu)
<ogasawara> kirkland: keep me posted on the bisect outcome
<kirkland> ccheney is working on it today, ogasawara
<ogasawara> thanks
<kirkland> "pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel
<kirkland> ^ is the correct description
<kirkland> robbiew: questions?
<robbiew> nope...everything I had a question about got bumped to a3 :)
<kirkland> robbiew: thx
<robbiew> kirkland: no...thank you ;)
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Desktop
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop
<seb128> hi
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team.html
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<seb128> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128>  
<seb128> * on track for alpha2: UNE using unity now, dx indicator-appmenu working now and will be added to UNE rsn, we got firefox security updates mostly sorted, new software-center version uploaded to maverick yesterday
<seb128>  
<seb128> Items listed on the agenda:
<seb128> * desktop-maverick-easy-wayland-testing: no items done yet on that spec but it's ppa work and not required for alpha2, can we moved to alpha3 if required
<seb128> * desktop-maverick-video-bugs-in-the-kms-world and desktop-maverick-xorg-in-mm: still some items but on track for alpha2
<seb128>  * bug 578281 has not been started yet, chrisccoulson has been busy full time on firefox security updates since UDS but the bug should be on track for the point release
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 578281 in ubufox (Ubuntu Maverick) "Add search plugin for Baidu" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/578281
<seb128>  
<seb128> GNOME 2.30.2 coming next week
<seb128> we will upload some of the bug fix updates to lucid
<seb128>  
<seb128> that's it from
<seb128> that's it from me (ups)
<seb128> kenvandine, dx updates maybe?
<ccheney> ogasawara, yea working on it :)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] DX
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX
<seb128> well there was Riddell for kubuntu as well still
<davidbarth> hi all
<seb128> but we do dx
<seb128> davidbarth, hey ;-)
<robbiew> ah...sorry
<robbiew> Riddel: will get you after DX ;)
<Riddell> thanks robbiew
<davidbarth> so the weekly report is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-app-menubar|dx-m-app-menubar]]
<davidbarth>   * new release with transient menus support and a nasty lock issue fixed; more apps supported: please keep on testing the new versions
<davidbarth>   * see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationMenu for how you can help
<davidbarth>   * tight, but on track for A2
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-gtk-enhancements|dx-m-gtk-enhancements]]
<davidbarth>   * csd not in scope for maverick anymore (more on that later); basically we're reconsidering the integration issues with the rest of the community
<davidbarth>   * argb has been taken out as well; we plan to re-introduce it after a2, once more bug fixes can be confirmed; still in scope for Maverick
<davidbarth>   * will update the BP work-items to reflect that
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-sound-menu-v2|dx-m-sound-menu-v2]]
<davidbarth>   * new release with registration + a new set of controls in the menu
<davidbarth>   * RB & Amarok enabled to support the new menu features
<davidbarth>   * on track for A2
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-indicator-me|dx-m-indicator-me]]
<davidbarth>   * will be re-targeted for A3
<davidbarth> that was for the "desktop" part of DX
<davidbarth> UNE was also covered by seb128
<davidbarth> unity is well on track for a2
<davidbarth> a nice new release this week; test the new menubar, it's cool
<davidbarth> ;)
<davidbarth> less cool:
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-indicator-network|dx-m-indicator-network]]
<davidbarth>   * Minor changes released this week
<davidbarth>   * Still more backend bugfixes
<davidbarth>   * *Not* on track for A2 for the UI part - we'll continue releasing engineering prototype interfaces to exercise the backend
<davidbarth> robbiew: and i've updated my blueprints targets only this morning (apologies again) to be assigned to the a2 and up (instead of a1)
<robbiew> so all 4 A2 blueprints you just mentioned have A3 work items...so how can they be targeted to A2?
<davidbarth> uh?
<robbiew> I went through them and retargeted them to a3
<robbiew> so for example
<robbiew> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-app-menubar
<robbiew> Work items for maverick-alpha-2:
<robbiew> fix totem argb bug: DONE
<robbiew> land argb patch back into gtk: DONE
<robbiew> land csd patch back into gtk: DONE
<robbiew> add blacklist support: INPROGRESS
<robbiew> write test plan for csd-argb: TODO
<robbiew> Land compiz patches to deal with frozen windows: TODO
<robbiew> Develop mutter patches: TODO
<robbiew> Develop metacity patches: TODO
<robbiew> Review apps to blacklist: TODO
<robbiew> [bratsche] The triangle in the messaging menu: TODO
<robbiew> [bratsche] Including the window buttons for csd directly in the theme engine: TODO
<robbiew> Work items for maverick-alpha-3:
<robbiew> [bratsche] Changing GTK to allow for a rounded stepper: TODO
<davidbarth> right, this started for a1; it should read a2, not a3
<robbiew> if there are work items for maverick-alpha-3
<robbiew> it can't be targeted to alpha 2
<davidbarth> generally we can have wi planned from a1 to a3
<davidbarth> we're splitting the load between iterations
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> that's fine
<robbiew> but the Milestone Target is for when ALL work items will be complete
<seb128> davidbarth, I think the suggestion is that those should be targetted for later not a2 if they will still require work
<davidbarth> but so the 4 here should be back on a2, shouldn't they?
<davidbarth> ahhh
<seb128> davidbarth, ie you can have a2 work items to land things in the ditro
<seb128> distro
<davidbarth> but will you still list them in your meeting agenda?
<seb128> but the specs should be ie for maverick beta
<davidbarth> robbiew: ^^
<davidbarth> because that was the issue initially, wasn't it?
<ogra> items that are for past milestones wont be listed
<davidbarth> anyway, we can see that offline; happy to re-target to whatever makes sense for tracking
<ogra> only the ones ahead
<robbiew> davidbarth: no worries...I've fixed ;)
<davidbarth> robbiew: thanks ;)
<seb128> well, the issue is that davidbarth wants to get progresses tracked for those and regular updates I guess
<davidbarth> other questions?
<seb128> and if specs are not targetted for a2 they will not be covered in the agenda
<robbiew> seb128: right...but he can certainly report on them if he wants
<seb128> agreed
<robbiew> anyway...moving on :)
<robbiew> thanks davidbarth
<davidbarth> that's fine, i'll put them on the report nonetheless; this is what we're focused on, so i can't put them under the rug
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Desktop...again
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop...again
<seb128> davidbarth, seems good to me ;-)
<robbiew> Riddell: ?
<Riddell>  * Compiles on ARM progressing but still some sticking areas (kdebindings, kdebase-workspace)
<Riddell>  * pulseaudio in Kubuntu by default
<Riddell>  * knetworkmanager replaced by plasma-widget-networkmanagement
<Riddell>  * waiting on MIRs for rekonq, koffice, kdeedu, kdenetwork
<Riddell>  * ubuntu one summer of code project making good progress, files all syncing
<Riddell>  * {k,}packagekit updated to 0.6
<Riddell>  * https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<robbiew> [LINK] http://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<seb128> we have a mir review team issue
<seb128> rickspencer3 took an action on that dunno if he did anything about it yet though
<Riddell> it needs more members for sure
<asac> seb128: thought we solved the current blockage
<ogra> or more bribes
<seb128> ie, all the mir team members have no time for mir reviews now and things are blocking on review
<robbiew> :/
<seb128> asac, we solved the unity one, Kubuntu has issues as well
<asac> same rules apply there
 * robbiew will talk to rickspencer3
 * ogra has jasper-initramfs pending for MIR
<Riddell> asac: so i should just promote them now?
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to talk to rickspencer3 about mir team issue
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to talk to rickspencer3 about mir team issue
<asac> Riddell: promote + file beta bugs
<Riddell> ok
<asac> Riddell: you know the important parts (like libs need ABI tracking etc.)
<robbiew> anything else before we move on to ARM?
<Riddell> actually that could do with being clarified in the MIR requirements (but that's outside the scope of this meeting)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] ARM
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM
<robbiew> ogra:?
 * ogra waves
<ogra> Detailed status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Short summary:
<ogra> * We're blocked by the non booting or non existing omap 3 and 4 kernels atm
<ogra> * jasper (partition resizer) showed some smaller issues with resizing partitions on the fly that need fixing before images can work.
<ogra> * FTBFS focus is on gobject-introspection since that breaks the netbook deps
<ogra> ...
<ogra> A2 status:
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogra> (a bit behind here but should be fine by monday, debian-cd merge will happen today, jasper MIR pending)
<ogra> ...
<ogra> A2 targeted specs:
<ogra> still only https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/preinstalled-sd-card-images-for-omap
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Blocking bugs:
<ogra> bug 595947
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 595947 in jasper-initramfs (Ubuntu) "MIR for jasper-initramfs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/595947
<ogra> bug 589624
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589624 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Maverick] omap flavour does not work on beagle XM board" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589624
<ogra> bug 594382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 594382 in linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu Maverick) "Wake up daisy chain activation failed on omap3" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594382
<ogra> bug 595949
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 595949 in linux-meta-ti-omap (Ubuntu Maverick) "linux-meta-ti-omap depends on the wrong binary kernel in maverick" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/595949
<ogra> ...
 * ogra sends congratulations to the US btw :)
<ogra> General:
<ogra> Team renaming minly done (modulo some cleanup)
<ogra> questions ?
<robbiew> \o/
<robbiew> thanks ogra
<robbiew> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<robbiew> nothing on the agenda
<robbiew> but always want to be sure ;)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Downstreams
<MootBot> New Topic:  Downstreams
<robbiew> Linaro has one feature
<robbiew> I think asac is covering for them
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinaroTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<asac> yeah. we only have one spec for alpha-2
<asac> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/arm-m-tool-chain-selection
<robbiew> and looks like it's waiting on doko
<asac> which is covered by doko afaiu
<asac> we have no real blockers atm, besides ourselves
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> okay cool
<robbiew> if folks have questions, jump into #linaro ;)
<asac> one question: we have the infrastructure team that does most of their work outside the archive
<asac> do you want those to be tracked here too?
<robbiew> hmm
<robbiew> nah
<asac> good. makes sense imo
<robbiew> :)
<robbiew> thnx asac
<asac> thanks
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Maverick regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick regressions
<robbiew> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
<robbiew> nothing critical
<robbiew> though the bluetooth one needs some lovin ;)
<robbiew> bug 594214
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 594214 in gnome-bluetooth (Ubuntu Maverick) ""Preferences" and "Setup new device..." options are broken in bluetooth-applet " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594214
<robbiew> and I'm not saying that just because I opened it ;)
<asac> haha
<seb128> robbiew, I will check on this one
<robbiew> seb128: thanks!
<robbiew> [TOPIC] 10.04.1 LTS
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.04.1 LTS
<robbiew> there's one blueprint..which is pretty straightforward
<robbiew> no need to discuss
<ScottK> Fix for Bug #586497 was just uploaded and is waiting for ubuntu-sru to accept.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 586497 in kpackagekit (Ubuntu Maverick) "kpackagekit install security update in automatic mode without authorization" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586497
<robbiew> cool
<robbiew> I think I missed bug 525807
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 525807 in openoffice.org (Ubuntu) "[upstream] [3.2.1] OOo Slide Show and Fullscreen modes - not full screen under compiz" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/525807
<robbiew> good move seb128 ;)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> any other business?
<robbiew> thanks all
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:50.
<ogra> thanks
<robbiew> go USA!!!!!!
<robbiew> lol
<ogra> ++
<seb128> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-13
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 40 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-14
<lifeless> persia: are we meeting tonight?
<persia> I hadn't announced such a thing, but I suppose we could.
<persia> Main bit to sort being to make sure that this is a good time, since it hadn't been in the past (based on attendance).
<czajkowski> if yer stuck send a mail to the board and see if any of us can stand in nhandler steped in last week for EMEA
<czajkowski> aloha btw :)
<persia> We're stuck on a more fundamental level, really, but thanks :)
 * persia has an action item from UDS to sort, but it's not yet floated to the top in the priority stack.
<czajkowski> persia: no worries, well if you need at least for today as we've had people coming to EMEA to get approved
<persia> Are there any candidates who showed up despite there being no meeting announcement?
<lifeless> persia: not that I know of; its more that I didn't recall an announce, so assumed I'd missed it
<persia> No, I've just been digging at a morass of other things, and didn't get to "[persia] become secretary for APAC membership board to take ownership over meeting time issue" yet.
<czajkowski> c
<jpds> py
<jpds> czajkowski: Again?
<czajkowski> indeed :(
<nijaba> o/
<ttx> \o
<sommer> o//
<ttx> smells like 2008.
<sommer> ah the smell of victory!
<Daviey> o/
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<Daviey> (/me mentions that he is on the phone conucrrently, so might be a little quiet in this meeting)
<smb> o/
<SpamapS> \_o
<RoAkSoAx> alright I guess we should get this started
<RoAkSoAx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is RoAkSoAx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<RoAkSoAx> The only action from previouys meeting was:
<RoAkSoAx> sommer and j1mc to look at doc presentation
<sommer> j1mc told me that he already started some stuff with the presentation
<sommer> he said he'd let me know when he had something tangible
<Daviey> sommer: is j1mc likely to be here later?
<sommer> might be another week since I haven't heard anything... I'll also start working on getting something mocked together
<sommer> Daviey: not sure, maybe
<Daviey> okay, sounds like it needs defering.
<Daviey> sommer: thanks :)
<sommer> np
<RoAkSoAx> [ACTION] deferring sommer and j1mc to look at doc presentation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  deferring sommer and j1mc to look at doc presentation
<RoAkSoAx> ok so there's no other action
<RoAkSoAx> let's move on
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Oneiric Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Development
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> Since the last meeting we have a funky new work item tracker:
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/ubuntu-server.html
<Daviey> It's well worth having a look around there, to see how we are doing.
<Daviey> We do have some skew, due to a bug in the WI tracker vs Launchpad teams. :/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/ubuntu-server.html
<Daviey> We do seem to be pretty well on track.  Incomming bug count is low (as expected).
<Daviey> Merges of packages pertinent to Server are looking minimal now.  (Thanks everyone for watching that)
<Daviey> We really need to put extended focus on feature work.
<Daviey> But generally, things are looking rosey.  Nice job.
<Daviey> ..
<SpamapS> purty colors
<RoAkSoAx> indeed
<SpamapS> seems we should raise the WI number to 660
<Daviey> SpamapS: yeah...
<Daviey> Oh, the other thing to add.. is TOPICS
<Daviey> This is something quite new.
<Daviey> one moment
<RoAkSoAx> ok...
<Daviey> See the server pertinent topics, http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/
<Daviey> This allows more finegrain tracking of topics / features.
<Daviey> ... done. Thanks.
<RoAkSoAx> awesome
<RoAkSoAx> if there's noone else who wants to raise something
<RoAkSoAx> let's move on
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<RoAkSoAx> are there any events of interest that someone's is participating in?
<RoAkSoAx> i guess not
<RoAkSoAx> so let's move on
<Daviey> Most of Canonical Server team will be in Dublin week of 27th
<RoAkSoAx> ahh the Rally
<RoAkSoAx> indeed
<smoser> ...
<Daviey> So any Dublin peeps want to meet for a beer... do speak up.
<SpamapS> I will be at CloudCamp tonight in San diego
<smoser> i will be giving a 5 minute blurb on Ubuntu one at a local event next friday
<SpamapS> http://cloudcamp-sandiego-2011.eventbrite.com/
<Daviey> smoser: I'll book my flight now to that...
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cloudcamp-sandiego-2011.eventbrite.com/
<smoser> and am talking tonight at Mug.org meeting about Ubuntu Server Oneiric
<smoser> Daviey, right.
<smoser> its good.
<Daviey> smoser: (you need to comment where it is)
 * Daviey mentions https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-o-ensemble-conference-talks
<RoAkSoAx> quite a few events
<RoAkSoAx> so I guess there's nothing else
<RoAkSoAx> i'll move on
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: o/
<zul> oh and im at OLS right now
<zul> sorry carry on :)
<RoAkSoAx> hehe
<Daviey> hggdh: Hello sir!
<smoser> hggdh, so could you please update me on where we stand on hardy kernels in ec2 ?
<smoser> ...
<smoser> i guess i will bother him later.
<RoAkSoAx> seems that hggdh  is not around
<RoAkSoAx> we'll have to come back to him later
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> smoser, I can
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Various little things done last week as well as changing hardy-xen to conform to qa-regression-testing and putting together a iscsitarget package proposal which I sent out to a few people that potentially can help me with some packaging stuff.
<smb> smoser, So basically the config option is turned off now (COMPAT_VDSO)
<smb> It was not really a regression though
<smb> So it should not prevent releasing the kernel as it is now
<smoser> so theres a kernel in -proposed ?
<smoser> that we think might be good
<Daviey> smb: Now the kernel is a major version higher, what exciting things are exciting to us?
<smb> The kernel currently in proposed has the problem with compat_vdso
<smb> but its not new. There will be the next one after that without
<smb> Daviey, beside of new things outside the kernel breaking? :)
<Daviey> smb: we love that.
<hggdh> RoAkSoAx: in a sprint right now, with James
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: alrighty ;)
<RoAkSoAx> smb: anything else you'd like to add?
<smb> Oh, and I tried to boot a 2.6.39 as dom0 which went surprisingly well
<smb> Well beside of some crashes the way down
<zul> sweet
<smb> I hope I can sort those out.
<smb> Otherwise nothing else here
<RoAkSoAx> alrighty then
<RoAkSoAx> moving on
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<RoAkSoAx> NCommand1r:
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<Daviey> smb: that is great news!
<Daviey> NCommand1r: is currently on a call.. suspect he'll have to /pass
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: alright
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<RoAkSoAx> anyone from the Community has anything that they would like to bring into our attention?
<RoAkSoAx> seems noone
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<RoAkSoAx> everybody seems bussy latelty :)
<Daviey> :(
<SpamapS> So..
<SpamapS> MySQL 5.5 ..
<zul> please say its done
<SpamapS> We really need to start by getting it into Debian, but Norbert seems very busy.
<Daviey> heck, there is an outstanding merge for mysql 5.1 that is getting larger.
<SpamapS> I am thinking that we, the ubuntu server team, should step up and 1) gain DD access (at least 2 of us) and 2) offer to help maintain MySQL in Debian.
<zul> agreed
<SpamapS> Daviey: indeed, we've been holding off since 5.5 is a target for oneiric and 5.1 will be demoted.
<Daviey> SpamapS: Who is talking to Norbert atm?
<SpamapS> me
<SpamapS> and he's been swamped.. he's had the 5.5 packages I prepared for 2 weeks now
<Daviey> SpamapS: How is that going?  Is he eager for help?
<SpamapS> Yes
<Daviey> oh splendid
<Daviey> SpamapS: Is he looking to sponsor your packages?
<SpamapS> I think we should offer it more clearly.. right now its just patches and little bits of help here and there.
<SpamapS> MySQL is maintained by a "team" in Debian, but that team only has one DD.. Norbert
<Daviey> Well we should certainly look to be more visable contributors to the team
<SpamapS> I think I have enough cred now to ask Norbert to support me for DD
<SpamapS> But I think we should have another server team member seek DD status.
<Daviey> dandy.
<zul> i would volunteer
<Daviey> I think most of the team would quite like that.
<Daviey> So i'm not sure there needs to be a specific volunteer, most of us that i know of are striving for it.
<SpamapS> zul: ok, I'll draft an email for the pkg-mysql-maint mailing list and send it to you for review.
<Daviey> You don't need to be a DD to be a contributor, or even a maintainer :)
<SpamapS> Daviey: thats just the thing, you need to be a DD to help with this situation. :-/
<zul> SpamapS, cool beans
<Daviey> SpamapS: ah?
<SpamapS> Because after MySQL 5.5 is uploaded.. *all* of the rdepends need to be rebuilt
<Daviey> How so?
<SpamapS> $ apt-cache rdepends libmysqlclient16|wc -l
<SpamapS> 174
<Daviey> Well that is a transition.. not sure it needs NMU's for that..
<Daviey> Surely it would hit experiemental first?
<SpamapS> Daviey: I think you're missing the point.. that w/o DD all we can do is file bugs and beg.
<SpamapS> I'm a little worried we're too late for the transition to be successful in Oneiric. :(
<Daviey> Hmm.
<Daviey> Lets take this out of meeting and draft a plan.
<SpamapS> Yes good idea, I just wanted to bring up the situation.
<RoAkSoAx> alright
<Daviey> good stuff
<RoAkSoAx> since NCommand1r and hggdh and in call/sprint respectively, let's end this
<RoAkSoAx> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<RoAkSoAx> Tuesday, June 21st 2011 16:00 UTC
<RoAkSoAx> thanks all
<Daviey> Thanks RoAkSoAx o/
<RoAkSoAx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:31.
<sommer> thx all
<ppisati> o/
<sconklin> \o
<kamal> o/
<smb> o/
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is ogasawara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cking> p/
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jjohansen> \o
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> CVE fixes for all the branches (lucid/imx51 and [maverick|natty]/ti-omap4), plus lucid/mvl-dove got a rebase too.
<ppisati> Still tracking down a usb problem we have with gcc 4.6 that is now affecting both omap3 and omap4 (lp#796892 and lp#791552).
<ppisati> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kt-meeting.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara> ==== oneiric nominated bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 26 linux kernel bugs (up 6)
<ogasawara> ==== Ubuntu oneiric-alpha-2 bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara> ==== oneiric-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== natty-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 25 linux kernel bugs (down 1)
<ogasawara> ==== maverick-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== lucid-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 8 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== hardy-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Incoming Bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 19 oneiric bugs (up 4)
<ogasawara>  * 1312 natty bugs (up 58)
<ogasawara>  * 1127 maverick bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 1037 lucid bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara>  * 38 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Regressions ===
<ogasawara> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 4 natty bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara>  * 42 maverick bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 75 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 453 natty bugs (down 3)
<ogasawara>  * 248 maverick bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 224 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 natty bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 2 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<ogasawara> apw, jjohansen, lag, manjo, ralveti, rtg: you have Alpha-2 work items to review your set of Ubuntu patches.  Please take a moment to review when you have a chance. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KernelOneiricUbuntuDeltaReview for your specific set of patches.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Server Requirements (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Server Requirements (smb)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-server-requirements
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-server-requirements
<smb> Started to play with dom0 and it worked surprisingly well for a first attempt
<Daviey> \o/
<smb> But there are some workings on the way up and more serious fails on the way down to look at
<smb> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
 * smb meant warnings not workings...
<ogasawara> Thanks to apw's efforts, fallout from changing to a v3.0 kernel should be resolved.  We've gone ahead and uploaded a v3.0 kernel and meta package to the archive.  Previous issues noted with the i915 driver as well as running an early 3.0-rc on atom processors should be resolved.  For anyone not yet running a 3.0 kernel, please install and help with some early testing.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Stable Kernel Team (bjf/sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Stable Kernel Team (bjf/sconklin)
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || The stable kernel team has had multiple delays in getting a start to the current
<sconklin> || cycle due to several regressions that were due to upstream stable updates.
<sconklin> || Status now is:
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Hardy: kernel has released
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Lucid: Currently in verification. We have a regression that looks like it will be resolved
<sconklin> || by reverting an upstream patch. If that's true, we will revert this at the end of
<sconklin> || verification and proceed with QA and/or Certification
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Maverick: Currently in verification. No regressions so far. Only two bugs remaining to
<sconklin> || be verified.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Natty: Currently in verification, with two possible regressions reported. The root cause
<sconklin> || of the regressions isn't known, and bisecting will be done to attempt to find them.
<sconklin> || It's not known whether they will be found before completion of the verification time.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Current SRU status is here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
<sconklin> || Current versions can always be found here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/versions.html
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || lucid    linux-meta-lts-backport-natty     ||                      || 2.6.38.10.20         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-ec2                         || 2.6.32-316.31        || 2.6.32-317.34        ||    3 ||        1 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-lts-backport-natty          ||                      || 2.6.38-10.44~lucid1  ||    1 ||        1 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               || 2.6.32.216.18        || 2.6.32.217.19        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.32.32.24         || 2.6.32.33.25         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    || 2.6.32-216.33        || 2.6.32-217.34        ||    8 ||        6 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-lts-backport-maverick  || 2.6.35.25.36         || 2.6.35.30.38         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-lts-backport-maverick       || 2.6.35-25.44~lucid1  || 2.6.35-30.54~lucid1  ||   21 ||       21 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.32.32.38         || 2.6.32.33.39         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.34.7               || 1.34.10              ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.32-32.62         || 2.6.32-33.66         ||    3 ||        1 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-fsl-imx51                   || 2.6.31-608.25        || 2.6.31-609.26        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-fsl-imx51              || 2.6.31.608.9         || 2.6.31.609.10        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.32    || 2.6.32-32.32         || 2.6.32-33.33         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-ec2                    || 2.6.32.316.17        || 2.6.32.317.18        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || maverick linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.35.28.21         || 2.6.35.30.23         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    || 2.6.32-416.33        || 2.6.32-417.34        ||    6 ||        5 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               || 2.6.32.416.6         || 2.6.32.417.7         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.38.6               || 1.38.8               ||    1 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.35-28.50         || 2.6.35-30.54         ||   14 ||       12 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.35    || 2.6.35-28.20         || 2.6.35-30.22         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.35.28.36         || 2.6.35.30.38         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || natty    linux-ti-omap4                    ||                      || 2.6.38-1209.13       ||   10 ||       10 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.38    ||                      || 2.6.38-10.6          ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-ti-omap4               ||                      || 2.6.38.1209.7        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        ||                      || 2.6.38.10.25         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             ||                      || 2.6.38-10.44         ||   15 ||       15 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> thanks everyone
<ogasawara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:06.
<kamal> thanks ogasawara
<cking> nice one
<sconklin> thanks!
<Daviey> Wow, is that the shortest meeting ever?
<apw> Daviey, not close
 * smb just has not looked for a second
<Daviey> :o
 * Daviey notes that the server team needs to take some lessons from the kernel team.
<ogra_> Daviey, i hope you dont ... to read statistics i can use libO calc better than wasting time for a meeting :P
<Daviey> heh
<Lcawte> Anyone here for the Gaming team meeting, head over to #ubuntu-gaming, we're due to start in a minute
 * Lcawte wonders how many new folks are here
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-15
<MrChrisDruif> Sorry I'm late
<PabloRubianes> is the ubuntu beginners team here right now?
<MrChrisDruif> I don't know PabloRubianes
<PabloRubianes> weird
<coalwater> hi
<coalwater> hm exciting meeting :D
<MrChrisDruif> coalwater; meeting in 45 mins.
<coalwater> o
<coalwater> hm
<coalwater> so i messed up the time zones?
<MrChrisDruif> Nope, google did
<coalwater> how?
<coalwater> o btw, forgot to tell u good job on webupd8 workspaces thing :P
<coalwater> i should sleep, it's 2:20 am here :D im sacrificing my nice sleep for this meeting , hope i's worth it :P
<MrChrisDruif> Meeting?
<nlsthzn> Objection!
<MrChrisDruif> Overruled?
<nlsthzn> :p
<cprofitt> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:12. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cprofitt> hello all
<cprofitt> Will all Ubuntu Beginners Team members please say her
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha oukou
<cprofitt> here
<PabloRubianes> here
<MrChrisDruif> here
<MrChrisDruif> I think this is it
<zkriesse> I'm here
 * cprofitt nods
<zkriesse> :) hey cprofitt how you doing sir
<pleia2> here
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] re-structure of UBT
<MootBot> New Topic:  re-structure of UBT
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<cprofitt> those ideas are some rough ideas that will be discussed by the current council next week.
<cprofitt> the suggestions come as a result of the meeting about the UBT at UDS-O
<cprofitt> the goal (which may or may not be clear from the document linked) is to reduce redtape
<cprofitt> and make the team more open and friendly to new folks.
<cprofitt> at the same time there is a desire to ensure that mentors are well qualified to give people advice and guidance
<cprofitt> I will be honest -- I think the current team is mired in muck right now
<cprofitt> and less functional and effective than it could be.
 * zkriesse nods
<cprofitt> That, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the general membership, but the structure and lack of effective leadership
<zkriesse> There's definitely a lack of activity and cohesive "administration"
<cprofitt> no offense to those that are not here, but it bothers me that I am the only 'council' member here
<hakimsheriff> sorry im late
<cprofitt> and I was late due to a child falling out of bed
<cprofitt> I apologize
<cprofitt> for my tardiness
<zkriesse> cprofitt: is your child oK/
<cprofitt> yes, the bed is not to high
<zkriesse> That kind of thing isn't exactly something you need to apologize for
<cprofitt> but they are always a bit shaken
<PabloRubianes> zkriesse, +1
<zkriesse> And glad kiddie is ok :)
<MrChrisDruif> Children before UBT, I like that :)
<cprofitt> so...
<cprofitt> there are really two things...
<cprofitt> 1)  Jono and the community team would like the UBT to become an effective part in the community on-boarding process
 * hakimsheriff thought the meeting wasnt happeing
<cprofitt> 2)  That process should be as red-tape free as possible while maintaining quality
<cprofitt> is there anyone that has any objection to those two items?
<MrChrisDruif> The red-tape was put up to ensure quality right?
<zkriesse> I have no objection
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, I think one thing is to welcome people inside the community and other is to let people easily in the team
<MrChrisDruif> Or was it just for laughs?
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: the red-tape was the result of a poorly executed attempt to ensure quality
<zkriesse> If you make it too hard to contribute to a supposedly OPEN community there will be a lack of desire to contribute
<cprofitt> I will not go any further in to detail other than to say it was due to a non-functional council and a great deal of compromise
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: yes
<zkriesse> Not saying I feel we should just go away with the red tape it's just it needs to be as minimalistic as possible
<cprofitt> one of the items listed on the link
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<cprofitt> is to open the FGs up
<cprofitt> and allow anyone to join them to receive guidance
<cprofitt> being an FG member means you want help in that area
<cprofitt> to learn more and potentially contribute to the community in that area
<zkriesse> It's a group with a focus, not a hard core team that only experts can join, am I correct cprofitt ?
<cprofitt> there should be no hoops or jumps to get to that
<MrChrisDruif> And you also go "upstream" sorta say..
<cprofitt> +1 zkriesse
<MrChrisDruif> Like joining the Contributor FG
<zkriesse> In that case I say +1 to making them open
<cprofitt> yes... that is the intent
<PabloRubianes> zkriesse, +1
<cprofitt> then the core team -- will be those of us that are making the UBT run
<zkriesse> There would still have to be some sort or leadership over them to ensure non-rampant craziness for lack of a better word
<pleia2> yeah, I agree that they should be open
<cprofitt> there may even be mentors who are not UBT members
<cprofitt> if a Bug-Control member wants to mentor -- I see no reason to make them join the UBT
 * nlsthzn gets shoved into the room
<cprofitt> but if you want to work on the UBT core, work with teams, etc... that is the core UBT team
<hakimsheriff> cprofitt, so to join the core team, you still need to go throught the long process?
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, but if mentor arent from the UBT what's the importance to have the team
<cprofitt> you need to go through a process...
<cprofitt> I would hope to not make it a long one
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: its to help organize the process - to make a single point of entry for new contributors
<cprofitt> for new users
 * zkriesse will return in a minute or two
<cprofitt> many teams have no mentorship process
<cprofitt> so for those teams we can help them develop one
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, sure but if mentors aren't part of the team I think the spirit will be lost with the time
<cprofitt> for the teams that do have a mentorship process we can be a portal
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: perhaps
<PabloRubianes> having people involve and contributing will lead to more members
<MrChrisDruif> So in this new structure, being in the FG means that you'll get helped by a mentor if you want to...or that you mentor others?
<cprofitt> I would actually hope that mentors that are not UBT members will see the value in the UBT and join, but to restrict a qualified mentor from helping because they are not a UBT member seems a bit foolish
<cprofitt> being in a FG means you are either getting help or being a mentor
<cprofitt> FGs will contain both
<cprofitt> they would be open teams
<cprofitt> to be a mentor will require membership in another team you are mentoring for... or approval to be a mentor by the UBT leadership
<hakimsheriff> cprofitt, and if you want to be in the support fg than you dont really need to go through any process?
<cprofitt> that process to become a mentor will not be a three month circus though
<cprofitt> hakimsheriff: no FG will have a process
<hakimsheriff> cprofitt, Great! :)
<cprofitt> if you want to offer support to people you will not need to be a mentor though
<cprofitt> you can just offer help
<hakimsheriff> great!
<cprofitt> if you want to mentor for bugs in the Contributor FG you would need to be a member of bug-control or approved by UBT leadership
<cprofitt> some control on quality, but not some official process that takes weeks or months
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, maybe a good idea, but in my experience the richest part of joining the Ubuntu community was the "membership circus to UBT"
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: I hope that we can replace that 'richness' with the same feeling of accomplishment, but w/o the red tape and frustration some have felt
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, sure
 * zkriesse is ack
<cprofitt> the goal is to become a more integrated part of the greater community
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: what FGs did you become a part of?
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, LP and wiki on those days
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> so... to take your use case
<cprofitt> under the potential structure
<cprofitt> you would join the contributor FG
<cprofitt> learn how to contribute to the LP and Wiki teams
<cprofitt> potentially get membership in the documentation team
<cprofitt> become approved to be a mentor for the Contributor FG
<cprofitt> and if you felt motivated and had time to devote join the UBT Core
<MrChrisDruif> And for questions and mentoring you also join wiki FG?
<cprofitt> the difference is you would not have to go through a 1-3 month process for joining the UBT before you could work on the documentation stuff
<cprofitt> and join the FG
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, yes is a good idea
<pleia2> sounds good
<hakimsheriff> Great! ;)
<cprofitt> pleia2: thanks....
<cprofitt> I just hope it works...
<cprofitt> the team has incredible potential
<cprofitt> and some very energetic members
<pleia2> it's the right direction based on feedback from folks I've spoken to
<pleia2> as always we can adjust as needed :)
<cprofitt> as always... we need to be agile :-)
<cprofitt> so I will know more next week after the council meeting
<cprofitt> and will post to the email list about that
<cprofitt> the next topic is a tough one
<cprofitt> one I would prefer not to be brining up, but I feel I must
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] UBT leadership
<MootBot> New Topic:  UBT leadership
<cprofitt> I do not feel the council (regardless of membership or time) has been an effective leadership structure for the UBT
<zkriesse> It sounds quite good
<nlsthzn> how many people in the core UBT and how many people present in this meeting?
<cprofitt> I think that primarily it is because the council was originally not given any real power and at many times council members were away for extended periods of time
<cprofitt> nlsthzn: the UBT core does not exist yet
<cprofitt> in the future the UBT core would likely be fairly small
<cprofitt> and highly motivated
<nlsthzn> cprofitt: sorry, then what I mean how many in the council and how many present in the meeting(s)?
<cprofitt> there is no issue with people not being able to give lots of their time
<pleia2> cprofitt: I think it's worth visiting what the team expects out of a leadership council/person/ewok, the role has changed significantly over the years
<cprofitt> I am the only current council member that I am aware is at their keyboard
<cprofitt> pleia2: I agree
<zkriesse> +1 @ pleia2
<cprofitt> others may be here via bouncers
<zkriesse> I know for a fact that DarkwingDuck is almost never on IRC or anything else
<MrChrisDruif> I've seen him from time to time zkriesse
<cprofitt> the first real question -- is how do you feel about the leadership participation over the last 12-18 months
<cprofitt> DarkWingDuck is currently busy for good reason
<zkriesse> MrChrisDruif: meaning he's "on" but inactive IE bouncer or the similar
<MrChrisDruif> I've only been around since December or something...
<cprofitt> I will not fault him for that.
<cprofitt> Duane as well
<zkriesse> cprofitt: Oh I know he is I'm just commenting on active/non-active council members regardless of the reason
 * cprofitt nods
<pleia2> I think the members of the council have done the best they can, I think it's the expectations that need changing
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
<pleia2> almost by definition members of leadership councils tend to be the busiest people around
<MrChrisDruif> I think the most important thing is that at least one council member should be contactable....via IRC, email or pidgin-carrier
 * nlsthzn was just curious as he doesn't know the team/council/set up but wants to learn / help / assist
<cprofitt> I agree... I think there was an expectation that the council was going to provide a huge amount of hands-on activity
<PabloRubianes> and we all here have a real life out there
<pleia2> (really, you should see the CC try to arrange a conference call for when none of us are traveling, it's literally not possible)
<MrChrisDruif> For when you've got issues with something, or questions
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: I think at that the council has been very good
<cprofitt> we have had several full-scale rather involved issues the past 18 months that we have handled
<cprofitt> and tried to keep negative side effects away from the team in general
<MrChrisDruif> I know, I was just pointing out my number one for the council
<zkriesse> I agree with pleia2 you guys have done a spot on job with all that you do,
<cprofitt> pleia2: would it be fair to say that the team still bears the burden of providing direction and effort?
<cprofitt> or is there some expected from the council on that?
<pleia2> cprofitt: I feel that the leadership bears the burden of making sure the team feels empowered to pour effort and direction into their interests and goals
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
<pleia2> I think there has been a lot of waiting around to see what we "should" be doing rather than just moving foward
<zkriesse> +1 plars
<zkriesse> argh tab fail, I meant pleia2
<cprofitt> so the council should set the direction, clarify it when needed, resolve disputes and empower people to go!
<pleia2> it should shift to leadership empowering and checking in to make sure FG leads and others are doing ok, not being the ones doing all the driving
 * cprofitt nods
<nlsthzn> we often mistake leaderhip for managment...
<pleia2> nlsthzn: indeed
<zkriesse> indeed
<MrChrisDruif> +1 pleia2
<cprofitt> alright...
<cprofitt> it sounds as though we have a fairly good picture of what the council is expected to do from you guys
<cprofitt> I will work to try to make that a reality
 * pleia2 hugs cprofitt 
<cprofitt> I do think, as pleia2 pointed out, that the true key to the UBT is going to be the FG leaders
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<cprofitt> they and their teams will be critical to success
<pleia2> I'll be honest, the support team does a great job and I don't even know who their leaders are (are there leaders? I just give support when I'm around and give an answer)
<pleia2> that's probably the way it should be
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
<cprofitt> last topic
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] Monthly meetings
<MootBot> New Topic:  Monthly meetings
<cprofitt> there is a suggestion to end monthly meetings of the general team...
<MrChrisDruif> What about those meetings?
<cprofitt> I am not sure about that, at least until the structure is set
<cprofitt> and FGs are up and running
<cprofitt> I can see it being a case of each FG having its own meetings
<cprofitt> and FG leaders working with the council
<cprofitt> -- do you guys think that would work
<zkriesse> Well I did run weekly/bi-weekly wiki meetings and it seemed to work fairly well
<pleia2> I still find them valuable for now (I don't think we should expect everyone to attend though, that's just setting us up for disappointment)
<cprofitt> or would you prefer to have a FG meeting and a General Team meeting?
<zkriesse> People showed up, we discussed wiki happenings/new stuff we could do, I posted results etc
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
<cprofitt> +1 zkriesse
<cprofitt> pleia2: I think a general team meeting is a must until the FG teams are established
<cprofitt> after that -- I might consider not having a general team meeting...
<pleia2> yeah, it can be talked about after that
<cprofitt> but I still think a general team meeting has usefulness
<cprofitt> that is just me
<cprofitt> I also am sensitive to having too many meetings
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, true
 * cprofitt nods
<MrChrisDruif> Holland is famous for it...afaik
<zkriesse> lol
<cprofitt> I want to thank each of you for coming. Making the time to be present. For all the efforts you have put in to making Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community better.
<MrChrisDruif> But I'm with the rest; general meetings until FG's are properly running
<zkriesse> Hey, thanks to you man cprofitt
<cprofitt> I hope that we all move this team forward and help it grow to its potential.
<cprofitt> Thank You!!
 * nlsthzn is happy to have seen the UBT in action...
<MrChrisDruif> That would be awesome cprofitt :)
<hakimsheriff> Goodbye everyone
<zkriesse> bye hakimsheriff !
<cprofitt> Please feel free to make comments too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<pleia2> thanks cprofitt! :)
<cprofitt> have a great night all
<zkriesse> Great meeting cprofitt spot-on job
 * hakimsheriff did nothing this meeting
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:55.
<cprofitt> hakimsheriff: showing up is something
<cprofitt> trust me
 * MrChrisDruif is off to bed; sleep well everyone
<zkriesse> bye  MrChrisDruif 1
 * Unit193 gets one point for showing up
<hakimsheriff> cprofitt, you are right, hehe
<nlsthzn> Unit193: looses his point for showing up after the meeting has ended (or at the very least staying silent until then) ;)
<Unit193> I never think I should speak at the first team meeting I attend
<nlsthzn> Unit193: I noramlly only get to speak at the first one :p
<MooDoo> hello all
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's udd steering meeting.  who's here today?
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
<jam> hello all
<barry> jam: hi.  any sign of jelmer or poolie?
<jam> jelmer was around earlier
<jam> and poolie is at velocity conf
<jam> so won't be here
 * jelmer waves
<barry> jelmer: hi!
<barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
<barry> i guess we should start
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>    * jelmer to study the feasibility of merge helper ([[https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr-builddeb/+bug/608675|bug 608675]]) as an intermediate step for quilt support
<barry>  
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 608675 in bzr-builddeb "merge-package should have support for manipulating quilt v3 patch stacks" [High,In progress]
<jam> jelmer and I still have it in the queue, but he got pre-empted with getting Launchpad using bzr-2.3.3
<barry> that's a good thing :)  np, we'll just carry it over
<jam> so I would say, still in progress
<jelmer> what John said :)
<barry> fwiw, we had a lot of buzz about udd+quilt these past two weeks.  getting a good story here will go a long way toward satisfying experienced packagers
<barry>    * poolie to send condensed summary of uds sessions
<barry>  
<barry> i'm not sure if this is still relevant, but we'll leave it on here until poolie gets back
<barry>    * jelmer to look into [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/udd/+bug/609187|bug 609187]] (warn when package import is out of date)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 609187 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "users are not warned when branching ubuntu:foo (or lp:ubuntu/foo) and the package import of foo is out of date" [High,Triaged]
<jam> barry: same as above, I believe
<barry> sure thing, np
<jelmer> yep, both are in progress.. moving along slowly
<barry> jelmer: no worries
<barry> [TOPIC]  * How can we better handle "native" packages, e.g. lp:software-center vs. ubuntu:software-center?
<MootBot> New Topic:   * How can we better handle "native" packages, e.g. lp:software-center vs. ubuntu:software-center?
<jam> barry: this is, getting the package importer to play nicely when we also have upstream source?
<barry> mvo brought this up, and i just wanted to put it on the agenda.  i think jelmer is familiar with the issue.
<jam> or just packaging in general?
<barry> the former
<barry> the problem is that mvo gets lots of bogus merge proposals because they're against the wrong branch
<jelmer> jam: in its simplest form, contributors sending in patches against the UDD branches while upstream uses a different branch
<barry> this could be a launchpad issue, in that perhaps we need a way to say "don't mp against the source branch, use the upstream branch over here"
<barry> but i'm not sure, so i'd love to get your thoughts!
<jelmer> I think there's two sides to this - in the short term, we should make sure users get warned about not proposing mps against the udd branch
<jam> jelmer: ah, that one
<jelmer> perhaps that's related to bug 609187
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 609187 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "users are not warned when branching ubuntu:foo (or lp:ubuntu/foo) and the package import of foo is out of date" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/609187
<jam> jelmer: is this to make 'lp-propose' determine the right target?
<jelmer> jam: that's already happening afaik (proposing a packaging branch now goes against ubuntu:<package>)
<barry> jam: well, i think there's also a bug out there that lp-propose doesn't work with source branches
<jelmer> barry: it does, but that requires bzr 2.4
<barry> jelmer: on the client side, or is server side support required?
<jam> jelmer: what you brought up above, is that lp-propse should propose towards lp:package
<jelmer> barry, client side
<jam> (1:11:40 PM) jelmer: jam: in its simplest form, contributors sending in patches against the UDD branches while upstream uses a different branch
<barry> jelmer: awesome!
<jelmer> jam: I think the issue at heart is that there are two histories when really there should just be one
<jelmer> the UDD branch is pointless if everybody should be using the upstream branch
<barry> except that the upstream branch may have unreleased changes, and the packaging branch only has released changes, right?  but i guess the upstream branch can just be further along in that case
<barry> (i.e. they'd share history)
<jelmer> barry: Hmm, yeah
<jelmer> barry, So I guess you'd want two branches but have related history
<barry> and the packaging branches would be differenter for older distro versions
<barry> jelmer: i think so
<jam> barry, jelmer: that would be my understanding. The real trick is figuring out where the seams are
<jam> what lp:package revision matches ubuntu:package @ rev-1.2.2
<jelmer> jam: as the package is native, the upstream branch should have the correct tags already
<jam> jelmer: if upstream does the tagging
<jam> bzr does, but it doesn't use the debian syntax, AFAIK (maybe we do)
<jam> I know some of the bzr plugins use "release-XXX"
<jelmer> so we should have sufficient information to match things up, and there is a link in Launchpad from the packaging to the upstream branch
<jam> and certainly, there is still the fact that *packaging artifacts* are in the packaging branch
<jam> like "Makefile" vs "Makefile.in" changes
<jam> (in bzr's case, bzr-2.3.3 won't have foo_pyx.c versioned, but it *is* in the tarball)
<jelmer> jam: We'll likely still need the pristine tar revisions that add files like that, but they could have the upstream revision as one of their parents
<jam> jelmer: sure. So at that point you just hope syntax matches?
<jelmer> jam: that's how bzr-builddeb already works if you have an upstream branch specified - e.g. see one of the branches maintained by the pkg-bazaar team (http://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-bazaar/bzr-svn/unstable)
<barry> anyway, we don't have to solve it today, but i think it would be a useful thing to keep on the radar (not as critical as the other issues we've identified)
<Riddell> for the immediate problem doesn't launchpad just need clearer wording on the packaging branch page to say that isn't where primary development happens?
<Riddell> the general problem of matching upstream branch history and tags to packaging ones seems very hard to solve but not necessarily specific to software that happens to be developed in launchpad
<barry> Riddell: i think part of the problem is that once you've done `bzr branch ubuntu:foo` you'll be working on the packaging branch, when upstream really wants to work against the upstream branch
<barry> at least for the currently in-dev version of ubuntu
<Riddell> barry: right, so launchpad needs clearer lableing there
<jelmer> jam: upstream is on Launchpad in this case, so I think it's reasonable to ask them to use a particular syntax if they want related history in the UDD branch
<barry> (e.g. `bzr branch ubuntu:natty/foo` still needs to give you the packaging branch)
<barry> Riddell, jelmer agreed
<jelmer> jam: It would be nice to create related history for arbitrary packages too (e.g. where upstream is in git), and the tag scheme can be pretty weird in some of those cases; I think we can leave that for another day
<jam> Riddell: going further, the parallel import file-id issue means that patches against the packaging branch can't be merged into the upstream branch.
<jam> jelmer: I was wondering if a 'similarity' metric would be reasonable (all files that are present have the same contents)
<jam> it might be a bit expensive to compute across history, though
<Riddell> I would propose filing a bug saying that packaging branch pages on code.lp.net should be better labeled
<barry> Riddell: would you like to file that bug? :)
<Riddell> can do
<barry> Riddell: thanks
<barry> [ACTION] Riddell to file bug saying that packaging branch pages on code.lp.net should be better labeled
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to file bug saying that packaging branch pages on code.lp.net should be better labeled
<barry> this leads me to the next topic:
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Topics for Dublin
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Topics for Dublin
<barry> you guys will be in dublin right? (fsvo "you guys")
<Riddell> my train is booked
<jam> I'm scheduled
<barry> nice.  i think it'll be a good opportunity to get the bzr+lp and platform guys together to discuss issues.  i'll send an email about it, but i wanted you to think of useful topics we might discuss or look into together
<barry> [ACTION] barry to send email on dublin topics to platform and bazaar/lp mlists
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to send email on dublin topics to platform and bazaar/lp mlists
<barry> if you have anything in particular you'd like to get input on from platform folks, please send me email
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Package importer progress
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Package importer progress
<barry> btw, thanks for fixing sysvinit!
<barry> anything new on importer progress?
<jam> barry: big kick in the crotch from launchpad removing ~ubuntu-branches support
<jam> but I think there are workarounds for some patches now
<jam> *for some projects*
<barry> jam: yeah
<jam> package-importer super-user status got revoked, but nobody supplied another way in
<jam> that + planned downtime meant a rough week
<jam> I think we are at 525 failures, which is up from 485 last week
<barry> jam: is that the aftermath of the big backlog or are there new failures now?
<jam> I'm guessing it is the ~ubuntu-branches thing, but I haven't followed it closely to know what 40 packages are now failing
<jam> that weren't before
<barry> jam: what's the longer term solution?
<jam> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088/comments/1
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088/comments/1
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 797088 in Launchpad itself "Launchpad has removed privileges that UDD importer requires to function" [Critical,In progress]
<jam> just says there may be a code solution
<jam> which sounds like "don't create old branches if the series is now frozen"
<jam> "<flacoste> obsolete is obsolete"
<jam> though IMO, if we import them to get good history, we might as well publish that history
<barry> jam: thanks.  i've subscribed
<jelmer> jam: yeah, they're particularly useful when e.g. creating SRUs for older distroseries
<barry> jelmer: which, imo, is a very important use case to preserve
<jam> I'm not sure how obsolete things have to be for it to fail
<jam> It seems to need to be a new package with old history
<jam> though fixing bugs in the importer allowing it to import something that used to fail
<jam> would suck to trip over this
<jam> from what I understand, flacoste wants to strictly have the importer use the Ubuntu upload rights
<jam> (so the importer can publish a branch, if an equivalent developer could upload a .deb )
<jam> but that doesn't seem to account for the fact that a developer *did* upload .deb or the importer wouldn't have anything to do.
<jelmer> jam: I think the UDD branches should reflect what's in the archive as much as possible; only allowing updates where an ubuntu developer would be able to do an upload means we'll have more out of date branches.
<barry> jelmer: i completely agree
<jam> jelmer: it sounds like the failure isn't as much about updating a branch, as *creating* one.
<jam> but I don't understand everything being said, either
<jam> and I'm proxying flacoste from about 20 lines of text :)
<barry> cool, let's move on
<barry> [TOPIC] bugs of interest
<MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest
<jam> barry: see above
<barry> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/canonical-bazaar-kanban.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/canonical-bazaar-kanban.html
<jam> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 797088 in Launchpad itself "Launchpad has removed privileges that UDD importer requires to function" [Critical,In progress]
<barry> jam: yep, thanks
<barry> anything in the kanban that folks want to point out?
<jam> there were 2 new bugs in bzr from maxb
<jam> let me check
<jam> bug #796751
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 796751 in Bazaar "TreeTransform _override_conflicts checking is not sensitive to symlinks" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/796751
<jam> bug #796748
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 796748 in Bazaar "TreeTransform canonicalises symlink-containing paths wrongly" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/796748
<jam> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/796748
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/796748
<jam> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/796751
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/796751
<jam> That was failing "live-build" to be imported
<barry> i remember seeing that one float by
<barry> [TOPIC] any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other business?
<maxb> To confirm the speculation from earlier: Yes, the jump in the failure count is the fault of the LP permissions shenanigans
<barry> maxb: thanks.  i hope that gets resolved soon
<maxb> On the plus side, flacoste did imply he was going to be fixing it somewhat todayy
<barry> okay then, on that note, i think we're done
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:51.
<barry> thanks everyone and see you in dublin
<jam> thanks, have a good day barry
<barry> jam: you too!
 * slangasek waves
 * ScottK stares
 * slangasek flinches
 * ScottK takes a break.
 * MooDoo has a kitkat
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> PEACE AND LOVE
 * bdmurray waves
<cjwatson> (um, I wonder if that's UK specific)
<mvo> hello
<jhunt_> o/
<barry> howdy
<slangasek> cjwatson: I think so, the closest I come is Trigun which inverts it :)
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> there was a KitKat ad in the UK which included Daleks wandering around a shopping centre shouting PEACE AND LOVE
<slangasek> hah
<cjwatson> also GIVE US A CUDDLE
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko csurbhi stgraber jhunt mvo ev vorlon bdmurray)
<slangasek> barry ev vorlon csurbhi cjwatson stgraber jhunt doko mvo bdmurray
<barry> bug 659738 (double motd banner sru); bug 791221 (and upstream 12248) though __dir__ change won't be reverted or fixed for 2.7.2; foundations-o-dhpython-transitions: verified wiki docs and converted some packages, emailed ubuntu-devel, planning bug jam with dholbach; foundations-o-python-versions: py3 cd size calculations; review and comment on email6 design docs; had a chat w/mvo and bzr guys about upstream vs. packaging branchs; py3.3
<barry> packaging tests re: debian-python discussions; planning namespace packages sprint; udd stakeholders meeting.  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 659738 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Lucid) "Duplicate welcome message in motd (caused by postinst script creating motd.tail file)" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/659738
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791221 in python-mox (Ubuntu) "Nova's test suite fails with python 2.7.2rc1" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791221
<slangasek> barry: what do you find as a rough number for python 3 CD consumption?
<barry> slangasek: did you see my email of a little while ago?
<slangasek> ev: hi, you're next :)
<slangasek> barry: when I look at my mailbox, yes!
<slangasek> :)
<barry> :-D
<slangasek> ev: ?
<ev> yikes, apols
<ev> went to make tea
<ev> - At the QA Test Automation sprint all week.  Lots of good discussion around
<ev>   how we're going to bring all of our disparate test systems under one roof
<ev>   and getting fed into one place that can data mined (with plans for a fancy
<ev>   PHB-friendly web frontend in +1).  If you're doing any kind of automated
<ev>   testing that we don't already know about, please do let Pete Graner know.
<ev>   He'll be asking again at the sprint.
<ev> - Started to get the installer netbook test farm up and running with Oneiric.
<ev>   AT-SPI2 or LTP seem to be broken right now. Yay.
<ev> - Working with Christian to define the new Wubi experience.  He's now provided
<ev>   some wireframes and we're waiting on pixel-perfect mockups from Otto.
<ev> - Worked with Christian to get a HTML5 animation to potentially replace the
<ev>   slideshow defined and quoted.  Meeting with Iain to talk about a similar
<ev>   project that he's involved with.  Doesn't appear to be immediate overlap,
<ev>   but we'll need to work closely for a consistent experience.
<ev> - Looked into how we can wedge WebKit into Wubi for the slideshow.  Talked it
<ev>   over with the U1 guys while they were here.  They suggested Qt, which might
<ev>   also help us with the styling, though I'll have to see how well the Python
<ev>   bindings are working in Windows, and if it's very invasive or balloons the
<ev>   size.  The other option is to use chromiumembedded.
<ev> - Currently looking at the Jolicloud Express installer with Christian.  This
<ev>   appears to be based off Wubi, but I can't find the source code anywhere.
<ev>   Will probably have to contact them.
<ev> - Writing a wireless network connection page for Ubiquity using the new
<ev>   NetworkManager 0.7 DBus API.  Happy to get back to bindings that actually
<ev>   work. :)
<ev> - Presented a modified installation success and failure measurement proposal
<ev>   to the Technical Board.
<ev> - Did some requirements gathering around the DX team moving their Jenkins
<ev>   stuff running on Neil's hardware into the QA datacenter we're building.
<ev>   Entertained the idea of building a CD out of the resulting DEBs for Unity
<ev>   and friends, then doing testing with it, so that we can catch more problems
<ev>   before things hit cdimage.
<ev> - Looked into WebKitGtk DOM support, in the hopes of putting the
<ev>   success/failure recording checkbox inside the slideshow, and personally to
<ev>   investigate the current feasibility of moving away from the GTK+ nightmare.
<ev> - Looked into alternatives to kvm-autotest, found none (well, VirtualBox has
<ev>   a COM API, but yeah, COM). Found a half-decent writeup on trying
<ev>   kvm-autotest in Ubuntu, will have to give that a go.
<ev> TODO:
<ev> - Need to get quotes for mini-itx hardware for moving the installer testing
<ev>   into the QA datacenter.  Need to then modify the existing framework to use
<ev>   remote power (yay) instead of its suspend/resume bodge.
<ev> - Try to get Robert's oops-repository up and running as a quick first cut of
<ev>   an automatic crash database. Learn Cassandra and Solr in the process.
<ev> - Finish hacking on local Mozilla Input (reporter).
<ev> (done)
<jhunt_> ev: wow - you must drink strong tea! :)
<ev> oh, I type those up while you're all yammering in the mumble thing ;)
<ev> but yes, Petra has kindly stocked every tea imaginable
<ev> and we have honey now
<ev> I might just start sleeping here
<barry> hey mvo, maybe it's time to move to london for the tea? :)
<slangasek> heh
<mvo> ev: woah, impressive list! what is the result of the gtk / webkit inverstigations
<mvo> barry: heh :) indeed
<slangasek> what's "Mozilla Input (reporter)"?
<ev> mvo: it definitely supports it now, but the GIR bindings don't expose it (though that seems to be a bug - surprise, surprise)
<ev> I was investigating further, but then I ran out of disk space and time, thanks to the webkit build process
<slangasek> ah, I'm sure that won't give any problems at all including it in wubi ;)
<ev> slangasek: http://input.mozilla.com/en-US/ - so the idea is that we'd use that as a basis for the "why are you quitting ubiquity" and success/failure tracking
<mvo> ev: heh, ok :) keep me updated on this, I'm also interessted in this problem space!
<ev> mvo: definitely will do
<ev> slangasek: ;)
<slangasek> ev: ok, cool
<ev> oh, and I'll need visual studio if we end up having to go the chromiumembedded route
<ev> so I'm also keen to hear what Pete says there :)
<slangasek> ok, me next
<slangasek> merging dpkg 1.16.0.3 into oneiric (one heckuva merge!); will follow after with an SRU
<slangasek> trying to keep pace with all the library merges turning into syncs because of multiarch landing in Debian (thanks doko for getting us bootstrapped!)
<slangasek> updates needed for the natty multiarch ppa to keep pace with security updates
<slangasek> preparations for rally plenaries
<slangasek> doing some work on archive NEW processing, as we have a bit of a backlog
<slangasek> EOF
<slangasek> questions?
<slangasek> psurbhi:
<psurbhi> *) Changed code for the initctl "pivot" command according to the review received from Scott. Tested and debugged this on the pilot event based initramfs. Sent out the updated diff for the same on upstart-devel ml.
<psurbhi> *) done.
<slangasek> whee
<slangasek> psurbhi: will there be test packages in a ppa that make use of this?
<psurbhi> yes, if and when this gets accepted, i will make a ppa with this
<psurbhi> for testing
<psurbhi> hopefully that should be soon enough
<slangasek> ok, cool
<jhunt_> psurbhi: once I've merged Upstart 1.3 into Ubuntu, that will make the ppa work a lot easier :)
<psurbhi> jhunt_, yes! thats true
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> Done:
<cjwatson>  * Landed live-build for all architectures and flavours.  Still working through a handful of build failures / misbuilds caused by it.  Nobody else has dared to touch it yet. :-)
<cjwatson>  * Started work on converting to hybrid ISO/USB images.  Trying to figure out why they're coming out 5MB bigger - xorriso upstream thinks it's partly their bug, but a lot of it may be intrinsic.
<cjwatson>  * Started work on enabling Lubuntu; landed LP change, but awaiting deployment of that plus more disk space on antimony.
<cjwatson>  * Fixing bug 796865 (parted breakage from Linux 3.0).
<cjwatson>  * Some sorting out of the canonical-foundations bug queue.  More to do - expect assignments ...
<cjwatson> --
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 796865 in parted (Ubuntu) "alt installer asks ??? ??? <go back> <continue>" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/796865
<cjwatson> I think that 5MB figure scales according to the number of files in the image; I was testing on server, so I expect it'll be less bad on desktop but haven't tried yet
<stgraber> ok, now that MootBot is back :)
<stgraber> Mostly spent the week working on Arkose.
<stgraber> Finished the rewrite to python, ported to LXC, ported the existing tools to the new backend, implemented X, dbus and pulseaudio support.
<stgraber> Released 1.0 yesterday: http://www.stgraber.org/2011/06/14/app-containing-on-the-modern-linux-desktop/
<stgraber> Now getting some feedback and working on a todolist (mostly bugfixes) for 1.1.
<stgraber> Did some python3 conversion (arkose and one ltsp script)
<stgraber> Documented the pre-upload process (just a final checklist) for extras.ubuntu.com.
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber> Going to do another batch of IPv6 tests this week (DHCPv6 + NetworkManager didn't work too well last time)
<stgraber> I also have the new sssd to upload to the archive now that ding-libs is there.
<stgraber> Some merges to do.
<stgraber> (done)
<jhunt_> Discussion and thought on Upstart job "aliases" (currently being worked
<jhunt_> on by Marc Dahlhaus). Design work on disabling Upstart jobs +
<jhunt_> "chkconfig-like" tool (ongoing - quite intractable). Cookbook updates.
<jhunt_> Looked at bug 27520 briefly (need to look further). Wrote
<jhunt_> "shutdown.conf" for handling stopping of Upstart jobs at system shutdown
<jhunt_> (needs testing). Worked with Keybuk last night to release Upstart 1.3.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 27520 in cron (Debian) "cron daemon caches user-non-existent lookup results, causing "ORPHAN" message and skipping jobs for all LDAP/NIS-defined users" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27520
<jhunt_> Merging Upstart 1.3 into Ubuntu (in progress). TODO: ongoing blueprint
<jhunt_> work + merge (new) outstanding branches into lp:upstart.
<jhunt_> â
<slangasek> I don't know if I'm the only one, but "chkconfig-like" just gets under my skin... I hate the name chkconfig :-)
<slangasek> jhunt_: you left "released upstart 1.3" off that list!  Congratulations :)
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - long weekend
<doko> - some more multiarch GCC fixes
<doko> - prepare packages for the Linaro 2011-06 releases
<doko> - investigate libnih test failures on ARM (thumb/armv7/-Os issues)
<doko> - evaluate JamVM test rebuild failures
<doko> - some JamVM "spec" upates
<doko> - found some packages never built in natty and oneiric
<doko> - python updates
<doko> - convert lsb to Python3 to get it on the images
<doko> - merges
<doko> - will be offline this Friday (travelling to London, not for tea, just for the Google GCC gathering)
<doko> - will work from the London office on Monday
<jhunt_> slangasek: +1. name is silly :)
<doko> - slacking on mir's component-mismatches, nbs, and build failures
<jhunt_> slangasek: 1.3 is in the list, but thanks :)
<doko> done
<slangasek> jhunt_: oh, my speed reading skills are failing
<mvo> shorter week, loooong weekend (mon, tue off)
<mvo> software-center: lots of software-center 5.0 planning calls/mails with the design team, review/merge lp:~osomon/software-center/qml, lp:~aaronp/software-center/tests,  lp:~aaronp/software-center/fix-794060-for-4.0 and upload SRU
<mvo> unattended-upgrades: move to dh7, ove to dh_python2, build unified package for both debian and ubuntu, request sync, debug incorrect/missing use of ddtp translations (#434601)
<mvo> command-not-found: work on lp:~mvo/command-not-found/py3
<mvo> misc: review/merge lp:~j-johan-edwards/archive-crawler/misc_bugs
<mvo> update-manager: add unity progress support basic on the work of cdbs (thanks!)
<mvo> python: move a bunch of packages to dh_python2
<mvo> oem: debug synpatic crash on arm system
<mvo> squid-deb-proxy: improve debconf handling, upload new 0.5 version
<mvo> apt: work on debian-experimental code (preparing tihs for oneiric), work on lp:~mvo/apt/add-lib-pkg
<mvo> (done)
<bdmurray> wrote an apport package hook for software-center
<bdmurray> adding in more information to pkg status pages on qa.ubuntu.com (fixing LP: #794256, #794260)
<bdmurray> apport branch to include /var in generic.py free disk checks
<barry> mvo: dhpy2 ftw!
<slangasek> doko: have you seen pitti's new thing that notifies ubuntu-release as soon as new component-mismatches happen?  Do you know if that's having an effect?
<mvo> barry++
<bdmurray> prepared a debdiff and test case for SRU of fix for LP: #346386 for natty - apt and broken packages index file
<bdmurray> modification of ml-important-bugs to take a number of days so I can have a good dashboard over a weekend
<bdmurray> updated my launchpad development virtual machine so I could start working on a Launchpad bug
<bdmurray> working on fixing Launchpad bug LP: #787294 regarding searchTasks and structural subscribers
<bdmurray> fixed team-assigned-bug-tasks in ubuntu-qa-tools
<doko> slangasek: no, didn't see it
<bdmurray> (done)
<slangasek> doko: and are you publishing a list of these packages never built in natty or oneiric?
<mvo> bdmurray: \o/ for #346386
<doko> component-mismatches, on irc or ml?
<cjwatson> ml
<doko> slangasek: no, didn't plan to. just while looking at the JamVM build failures
<doko> hmm, I'm not subscribed to the ml
<slangasek> I'm happy to see that there does seem to be a consensus now in Debian about using dh_python2 as The Helper
<barry> slangasek: indeed.  i think we're actually not far from deprecating pysupport
<slangasek> doko: might as well publish the list of non-built packages, even if it's just a quick email to ubuntu-devel: "Here are these things that are broken, maybe we should do something with them"
<doko> well, I don't care how many helpers we have, if somebody would state what is wanted about public modules, e.g. one site dir, no file creation on install time, working debug packages,etc
<doko> slangasek: ok, have to find out how to get this list
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.html first cut, probably horrendously wrong
<slangasek> doko: I still care how many helpers we have, because it makes our packaging documentation worse... but yes, the policy regarding behavior is fundamentally more important
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.html first cut, probably horrendously wrong
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.txt should be parseable, more or less
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.txt should be parseable, more or less
<barry> wasn't ScottK working on an update to the debian python policy?
<barry> cjwatson: thanks!
<slangasek> "Dependency level 31", heh
<slangasek> barry: certainly - but the policy has always trailed consensus
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Rally planning
<MootBot> New Topic:  Rally planning
<barry> yep
<barry> cjwatson: i'll review after lunch
<ScottK> barry: On my TODO.
<slangasek> only a week and $twiddle to the Dublin Rally
<cjwatson> yeah, shouldn't expect the dep levels are relevant in this case
<barry> ScottK: thanks.  would love to talk about it later (or on the ml)
<slangasek> if there are topics you want to cover that week with the group, or with folks from other teams, please document them on https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuEngineering/Rally/Oneiric/Foundations
<slangasek> (and say who it is you need, if it's someone on another team)
<slangasek> also, the URL has changed, so hmph
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> Also also: I expect everyone on the team to be able to come up with at least one agenda item for the rally to be added to that page, since none of you is working in a vacuum :P
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> what else is new and hoopy?
<slangasek> who has invented a new compression algorithm that will let us fit our images on CDs again?
<ScottK> The component mismatch mails are very nice.
<ev> I've got a good one if you don't care about data integrity
 * slangasek xors packages together and stores the result
<jhunt_> I've got a good one too, but it relies on being able to factorize large primes... :)
<ScottK> python-defaults with 2.7 as default is in Debian Experimental.  Our Oneiric package is based on that.
<cjwatson> oh, I ported ubiquity to dh_python2, forgot to mention
<cjwatson> except for the build failure which is fixed in bzr
<barry> when porting to dhpy2, are you guys submittodebian the changes?
<cjwatson> I didn't since ubiquity is Ubuntu-specific :)
<slangasek> yep
<barry> cjwatson: right :)
<mvo> I do
<slangasek> I submitted mine, whichever one it was (I forget now)
<slangasek> there was already an open bug; now it has a patch
<barry> slangasek: \o/
<slangasek> gwibber or pitivi, I think it was
<cjwatson> http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi stats on submittodebian (or equivalent) contributions, for those who don't know about them
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi stats on submittodebian (or equivalent) contributions, for those who don't know about them
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Usertagging
<slangasek> is that open bugs only?
<slangasek> wow, I've submitted a lot of those
<cjwatson> I think that's all bugs, not certain
<slangasek> the sums don't work out with the last table, must be open bugs only
<cjwatson> hm, ok (though the last table's only for those with >5 bugs)
<slangasek> right, but the last table shows at least 4000 bugs :)
<slangasek> ok... anything else?
 * slangasek raises the gavel ponderously
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:50.
<cjwatson> http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/collab-qa/udd/web/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi?view=markup
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<mvo> thanks
<stgraber> thanks!
<jhunt_> thanks!
<ev> thanks
<barry> thanks!
<slangasek> cjwatson: huh, that code seems to contradict my claim
<psurbhi> thanks all! :)
 * pedro_ waves
<pedro_> anybody around for the qa meeting? :-)
<pedro_> hggdh, jibel, bdmurray ?
<bdmurray> pedro_: I'm here
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<hggdh> :-)
<jibel> aloha
<pedro_> alright lets start
<pedro_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is pedro_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pedro_> As always the agenda is available at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Previous Actions
<pedro_> there's only 1 action:
<pedro_> * bdmurray further research into the quantity of bug reports containing workarounds
<pedro_> bdmurray, do you have any news on that?
<bdmurray> pedro_: oops, no I don't
<pedro_> ok lets keep it there for the next meeting
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Community Efforts/Testing
<pedro_> jibel, hggdh any news on that topic?
<hggdh> pedro_: not from here (apart from triaging community bugs ;-)
<jibel> business as usual on the sru side, apart from that not much from me
<pedro_> ah on the sru side, there's a firefox 5 upgrade for Natty so if you guys can test that and provide feedback that'd be great
<pedro_> bug for that is bug 294187
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 294187 in language-pack-de-base (Ubuntu) "Firefox Locales should install locale specific search plugins" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/294187
<pedro_> and new lang pack is around as well
<pedro_> testing is always appreciated for the SRU so if you have some time have a look to  : http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html and help us with that queue
<pedro_> any questions?
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Automated/Systems Testing
<pedro_> looks like patrick is not around, jibel hggdh do you know anything on the topic?
<hggdh> patrick *is* around...
<hggdh> he is logging in now
<hggdh> (sitting two chairs to my right, in fact)
<pedro_> ok
<pedro_> patrickmw, hello , anything new to share on the  Automated/Systems Testing side?
<patrickmw> not really.  this week has been mostly planning
<pedro_> alright
<pedro_> lets go for the next topic
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Engineering Team Bug Status
<pedro_> bdmurray anything to share?
<hggdh> not from here, yet -- just planning, and testing oneiric
<bdmurray> I've written an apport package hook for software-center
<bdmurray> added in more information to pkg status pages on qa.ubuntu.com (fixing LP: #794256, #794260)
<bdmurray> apport has been updated to also check /var for free space before reporting package installation failures
<bdmurray> I'm also working on an SRU for bug 346386
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 346386 in apt (Ubuntu Natty) "[MASTER] Update fails with invalid package files with "Encountered a section with no Package: header"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346386
<bdmurray> that's the most interesting stuff
<bdmurray> ...
<pedro_> cool! thanks
<pedro_> bdmurray, talking about qa.ubuntu.com , do you know what happened with status.qa.ubuntu.com? kamusin ping me the other day and he noticed it's missing some packages
<bdmurray> pedro_: do you have a specific package?  a merge might have gone awry
<pedro_> for example if you click on Gnome you'll see empathy in the list
<pedro_> where in the previous version more packages like evolution where there
<pedro_> s/where/were
<bdmurray> heh
<bdmurray> if you click on bugpattern-needed you'll see a bunch more
<bdmurray> I'll sort it out but for future reference bugs about ubuntu-qa-website would help
<pedro_> bdmurray,  ok will recommend that , thanks!
<pedro_> You might have noticed that tomorrow we're having a bug day for Totem, so if you use it or you just want to learn a bit more , please join us https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20110616
<pedro_> there's plenty of bugs waiting to be triaged and yes you can even watch a movie while doing the triage work
<pedro_> so remember, tomorrow the *whole* day your timezone, we use the  #ubuntu-bugs  channel to discuss the triage so be around
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Other Topics
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Topics
<pedro_> anything else to announce, discuss, etc ?
<pedro_> seems not , ok
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
<MootBot> New Topic:  Chair Selection
<pedro_> looks like patrickmw already volunteered ?
<patrickmw> yes
<pedro_> patrickmw, ok thanks !
<pedro_> alright folks, thanks for attending
<pedro_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:24.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-16
<NCommand1r> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:59. The chair is NCommand1r.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommand1r> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110616#preview
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110616#preview
<ogra_> plop
<janimo> hello
<NCommand1r> morning all
<NCommand1r> who's here?
<ppisati> o/
 * GrueMaster is not here.
<infinity> \o
 * davidm thinks he is in London
<NCommand1r> k, good enough
 * davidm is sure he is not in the Freenode servers
<NCommand1r> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommand1r> [topic] NCommander/ogra to review janimo SD alignment branch
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander/ogra to review janimo SD alignment branch
<ogra_> reviwed, fine for merging
<NCommand1r> ogra_: are oytugoing to handle actually merging it?
<ogra_> i just didnt get to it yet (and was secretly hoping NCommand1r finds spare time :P)
<ogra_> if you dont do it before i'll try to get to it tomorrow after the release team meeting
 * NCommand1r just realized he was NCommand1r ...
<GrueMaster> I assume it has been tested?
<GrueMaster> who did you think you were?
<NCommand1r> NCommander :-P
<NCommand1r> [topic] NCommander to get Documentation spec approved
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to get Documentation spec approved
<NCommand1r> co
<NCommand1r> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommand1r> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommand1r> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<ogra_> GrueMaster, hasnt been tested in real environment yet ... but we'll have to shake out bugs anyway :)
<NCommand1r> trendline doesn't look so good ...
<GrueMaster> Several of mine are done or in progress but not indicated.
<ogra_> NCommand1r, i know, waiting for the last spec to land
 * GrueMaster hates the syntax parser for the wi tracker.
<ogra_> NCommand1r, i dont want to set the trendline twice
<GrueMaster> Do you need to set the trendline for it to see that I have stuff done?
<ogra_> GrueMaster, no
<ogra_> its just a helpful diagonal line, thats all :)
<ogra_> but the start value for it has to be set manually in the code
<GrueMaster> So why aren't my tasks showing as done?
<ogra_> so until NCommand1r#s doc spec is approved i wont set it
<ogra_> GrueMaster, when did you change the WIs ?
<ogra_> the tracker runs once a day iirc
<GrueMaster> last week.
<GrueMaster> for a couple.  two days ago for some others.
<GrueMaster> >24hrs ago.
<ogra_> weird
<ogra_> lets look after the meeting
<NCommand1r> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<NCommand1r> So I've discovered that my panda apparantly dislikes USB/ethernet when running with an oneiric userland  on the d-i netboot image. This incidently become a bit of a blocker w.r.t. to continuing to work on it
<ppisati> NCommand1r: didn't you find anyone with a panda a2?
<ogra_> when are you back in portland ?
<ogra_> so you can use another panda
<GrueMaster> Mine are tied up until I return.
<ogra_> well, PXE booting will also have to wait until at least next week
<NCommand1r> ogra_: I'm basically depwait GrueMaster until next week
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> so no more server netbooting this week then
<GrueMaster> NCommand1r: I tested it here this morning and had networking through the eth0 port.
<NCommand1r> ogra_: well, I still have a base-installer branch that needs review
<ogra_> GrueMaster, A2 board too ?
<NCommand1r> ogra_: mine is an A1
<GrueMaster> He "shouldn't" have an A2.
<NCommand1r> according to the panda I was pointed to
<ogra_> didnt you say revision 0020 ?
 * ogra_ thought that indicated A2
<GrueMaster> his is oneof davidm's batch.
<davidm> Anything that came from me is a A1
<GrueMaster> and it booted maverick & natty before I gave it to him.
<ppisati> so it's an a2, it's the same batch that had the bootloader problem with maverick
<davidm> IT's all I have
<ppisati> ah
<ogra_> how did that A2 stuff come up then ?
<ogra_> hmpf
<ppisati> http://www.omappedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard_Revisions
<NCommand1r> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti, ppisati)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti, ppisati)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.omappedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard_Revisions
<GrueMaster> The cpuid changed between EA1 & A1.
<ppisati> devmem2 0x4A002204
<ppisati> to get the board revision
<ppisati> as we discussed this morning, oneiric/ti-omap4 is still MIA
<ogra_> well, there is the natty kernel which we will use until we have something new that works
<ppisati> the usb issue turned out to be an upstream kernel bug revealed with tghe switch to gcc 4.6
<ppisati> yep
<ogra_> thats usually how we do it anyway
<ogra_> i see that toolchain played back the ball to the kernel team court for the USB bug ?
<ppisati> lp#791552
<ppisati> yep
<ogra_> bug 791552
 * ogra_ pokes the bot
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791552 in linux (Ubuntu Oneiric) "No USB support on beagle/beagleXM" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791552
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> helps
<infinity> Bot needs coffee.
<ppisati> anyway, it seems it's *arm related, so as soon as distro start switching to 4.6
<ppisati> it'll be an high priority for everyone
<ppisati> right now i'm looking at
<ogra_> right, but michaelh said there its an issue to solve in the kernel code
<ppisati> bug 608312
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 608312 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "USB host mode on OTG doesn't work on Maverick with BeagleBoard" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/608312
<ppisati> ogra_: yes, the issue is in the kernel
<ogra_> you think they are related ?
<ppisati> ogra_: but the known workaround don't work for us
<ogra_> yeah
<ppisati> ogra_: nope, i was just taking a break from CVE :)
<GrueMaster> yea, thanks for that.
<ppisati> besides this, nothing new
<ppisati> GrueMaster: but it seems i've no OTG hw here
 * GrueMaster grumbles about pending propossed kernel testin to do.
<ppisati> yep, there's a pending kernel for every distro/flavour
<ppisati> have fun :)
<GrueMaster> ppisati: Just get gadget working for now.
<GrueMaster> I'll give to an OTG cable at the rally.
<ppisati> GrueMaster: i think i bought OTG cables but whatever i attach them
<GrueMaster> keyboard, mouse, etc.
<ppisati> GrueMaster: the status in musb_hdrc/mode doesn't work
<ppisati> doesn't change
<GrueMaster> It puts the otg port into host mode.
<GrueMaster> well, fix it.
<ppisati> GrueMaster: is it a micro -> normal usb female?
<GrueMaster> (hence the bug)
<GrueMaster> micro b.  Wiring change.
<ppisati> GrueMaster: actually it was supposed to work on lucid, but it doesn't work there neither
<GrueMaster> iirc it worked in maverick on omap.
<ogra_> how about we keep a TODO to look into that in dublin ?
<ppisati> k
<GrueMaster> yep.  next
<ogra_> where we have HW and cables
 * ppisati agrees
 * GrueMaster shakes the NCommand1r bot.
 * ogra_ hears the rattling 
<NCommand1r> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<janimo> some progress yesterday, during the porting jam
<ogra_> threee hoorays from everyone to hrw ... he attacks chromium atm :)
<janimo> but not very noticable if you look at the QA webpage, is still read
<ogra_> well, doko fixed libnih
<ogra_> that should give us upstart soon
<janimo> nice - although I was under the impression that was a binutils issue
<janimo> chromium I mean
<NCommand1r> A wild chromium attacks
<ogra_> well, he was testbuilding a fix last i saw him in #ubuntu-arm
<ogra_> anyway, we're not massively worse than other arches on the ftbfs page
<ogra_> which is pretty cool for that state of the cycle :)
<ogra_> move ?
<infinity> tp-glib is dying on a test failure?  I might have to look at why that is.
<ogra_> infinity, i think there are (closed) bugs from the last three cycles
<ogra_> look through launchpad, iirc one had a papertrail of tracking down the issue
<infinity> *nod*
<infinity> ogra_: Hrm, the old bug was a SEGV in the tests, this just lookg like a timeout, but I'll have to reproduce locally and see.
<ogra_> hmm, k
<ogra_> then it might be different this time
<janimo> infinity, the old one was a gcc miscompilation when passed -fshrink-wrap which is now disabled. Could be another one though
<janimo> I was under the impression it was ld this time
<ogra_> there were older ones
<janimo> the most recent one then :)
<ogra_> we had the same segfault every release in the past
<ogra_> and worked around it with -O1
<infinity> janimo: I was led to believe it was ld exploding too, but I just looked at the build log, and all I see is a test timing out.  Anyhow, can take this out-of-band and test more later.
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> NCommand1r, move ...
 * GrueMaster listens to the silence.  somewhere in the distance, a wolf howls.
<NCommand1r> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
 * davidm thinks NCommand1r is stick in a loop 
<NCommand1r> sorry, suffering from serious lag issues
 * ogra_ points to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/current/
<infinity> Isn't that always true?
<NCommand1r> infinity: ouch
<ogra_> we have desktop images
<NCommand1r> ogra_: \o/
<ogra_> (with 1G of crap on them though, and no manifest files yet)
<ogra_> maniofest is fixed now and should show up with next build
<ogra_> i'll put in some time tomorrow to see how we can clean up and get smaller images
<davidm> that works
<ogra_> beyond that i did soem work on a headless natty ac100 image ... server and kernel people asked for it
<ogra_> thats all for images from my side
<GrueMaster> erm, how will that work?  ENOSERIAL
<ogra_> heh
<NCommand1r> ogra_: link would be nice, might be able to get my AC100 to do something
<ogra_> indeed as framebuffer console image
<GrueMaster> same here.
<ogra_> i'm not done yet
<persia> Consoles are for folks that don't trust their headless images.
<ogra_> i update the netbook image at the same time to the latest kernel
 * ppisati awaits impatiently for a headless AC100 image
<infinity> Consoles are for people who can't pre-generate an sshd key.
<infinity> It's all the rage.
<NCommand1r> consoles are what I play games on :-P
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> well, i usally announce new images on the ac100 ML
<NCommand1r> anything on the image issue, or can I move on?
<ogra_> i should have the headless one by tomorrow evening, latest mid weekend
<ogra_> NCommand1r, move :)
<NCommand1r> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Currently attending QA Automation sprint.
<GrueMaster> Learning about Jenkins and discussing various automation tools & techniques that I can apply to arm.
<GrueMaster> I've also started FS benchmarking on home systems.
<ogra_> so we can forward our java quesions to you in the future ?
<ogra_> now that you know jenkins
<GrueMaster> Actually, it will work w/o java on the test system, using ssh & serial console.
<GrueMaster> (although java is better)
<ogra_> heh, depends :)
<GrueMaster> Will work to setup a jenkins environment when I return home.
<NCommand1r> anyting else?
<GrueMaster> I'm good.
<ogra_> noting else
<ogra_> :)
<GrueMaster> NCommand1r: Moving right along....
<NCommand1r> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<NCommand1r> If nothing else
<NCommand1r> closing in 3
<NCommand1r> 2
<NCommand1r> 1
<NCommand1r> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:48.
<pitti> kees, cjwatson: hello
<pitti> I pinged Keybuk an sabdfl in #u-devel, and mdz is on holiday
<pitti> hm, *tock tock*, is this thing on?
 * broder waves at pitti
<micahg> pitti: and here too :)
<pitti> ooh, I'm not alone!
<pitti> is 1/6 quorum?
<broder> i just saw Keybuk show up, so you're up to 2 :-P
<pitti> Keybuk: aah, hey Scott! how are you?
<pitti> broder: I googled him :)
<nigelb> haha
<charlie-tca> I will show up if it makes anyone feel better ;)
<Keybuk> pitti: hey, good thanks, you?
<pitti> charlie-tca: I feel better, but not the quorum :)
<pitti> Keybuk: pretty well, thanks
<nigelb> So, googling Keybuk now summons him? :)
<Keybuk> nigelb: just talking about me anywhere on the Internet
<nigelb> heh
 * persia fears the return of kirby
<Keybuk> you mean kibo
<pitti> Keybuk: so, that's our chance to turn the whole ubuntu policy upside down!
<Keybuk> yes!
<pitti> [agreed] devs get a beer for every upload
<Keybuk> [agreed] switch to systemd
<Keybuk> [agreed] switch to chrome
<pitti> [agreed] posting to mailing lists costs karma
<Keybuk> [agreed] switch to gnome shell
<pitti> [agreed] sync-source.py -f -F -a
<maco> rebase on centos instead of debian?
<maco> port yast?
<Keybuk> [agreed] rename to GNU/Debian/Ubuntu Linux
<broder> devs get a beer for every upload> +eleventy
<pitti> aaanyway
<Keybuk> oh, I forgot
<Keybuk> [agreed] rewrite Unity in C#
<Keybuk> (yes, BoycottNovell, you can have that one for free :p)
<nigelb> [agreed] 2 is quorum?
<pitti> I think we have to postpone this; most of the stuff on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda can be discussed on the ML as well
 * pitti volunteers himself for being the next chair
<pitti> ugh, what a hard meeting
<cjwatson> oh, hell, I'm sorry, I missed this
<cjwatson> was cooking
<maco> hopefully something tasty?
<cjwatson> nowt special
 * cjwatson is not normally the cook of the household
<Keybuk> cjwatson: that's ok, it was a productive meeting - we agreed many things
<pitti> cjwatson: hello Colin
 * pitti just back from typing replies to the agenda items via email
<pitti> I think the banshee, partner policy, and install success measuring are adequate for email discussion/voting, and the ubuntun series owner is not that urgent
<sbeattie> pitti: sorry, kees is also on holiday this week.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-17
 * pleia2 waves
 * greg-g waves!
<maco> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:00. The chair is maco.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<maco> ello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for 16 June 2011. he wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<maco> nerf. that'd be "Hello"
<maco> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<maco> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<maco> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<maco> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<maco> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<maco> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<greg-g> Matthew, are you here today?
<maco> his nick doesn't appear to be joined
<greg-g> nope
<pleia2> I'll send him an email and remove him from the list
<greg-g> iamfuzz/Brian?
<dindatx> Has Matthew really been signed up since February?
<pleia2> dindatx: yeah
<greg-g> tenach / Thomas?
<maco> ChrisGagnon looks like the only nick that's actually here
<greg-g> yep.
<ChrisGagnon> :)
<greg-g> ChrisGagnon: you ready?
<maco> well this'll be quick
<maco> ChrisGagnon: please introduce yourself
<maco> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisGagnon
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisGagnon
<ChrisGagnon> I am ready.
<maco> [topic] Chris's application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Chris's application
<pleia2> ChrisGagnon: please go ahead and introduce yourself :)
<greg-g> ChrisGagnon: if you could introduce yourself, that'd be great
<greg-g> :)
<ChrisGagnon> Hi I work for canonical in the OEM service department
<ChrisGagnon> I have been using ubuntu since Feisty fawn
<ChrisGagnon> hmm I don't know what you want to know about me
<greg-g> ChrisGagnon: what kind of involvement do you have with the Ubuntu Community, generally?
<dindatx> and why are you applying for membership?
<ChrisGagnon> I answer questions when in IRC when I see them in #kubuntu and #ubuntu
<ChrisGagnon> I also promote Ubuntu at my local LUG
<greg-g> oh good, what is the LUG's name?
<nhandler> ChrisGagnon: Are you involved with a LoCo?
<dindatx> nice - which LUG?  is there a Loco team near you?
<ChrisGagnon> GNHLUG
<ChrisGagnon> I would start at LoCo, but Maddog attends the local LUG groups and I don't feel like a loco could compete.
<maco> yikes, looks like NH LoCo is deaded
<greg-g> ahh :)
<Pendulum> most of the NE LoCos are pretty dead
<maco> last post a year ago from a guy i *know* doesn't even live in NH
<maco> (by which i mean, he was my neighbor when i lived 2 miles south of here :P)
<Pendulum> MA is the only one with any sort of activity and it's so low it lost 'approved' status last cycle
<Pendulum> maybe 2 cycles ago
<pleia2> ChrisGagnon: have you done presentations or events at the LUG?
<ChrisGagnon> No. I plan on doing a presentation on an automation robot I am building, when it's finished.
<greg-g> interesting
<nhandler> ChrisGagnon: I see you are a member of the kubuntu bug team, have you done any triage work there?
<maco> and in the same vein:  i was surprised to see your wiki page say you're a QA Canonifolk who uses Kubuntu when ive never seen you talk in #kubuntu-devel ... are we doing that great a job?!
<ChrisGagnon> I've looked at a couple of bugs there
<ChrisGagnon> I work in QA, on hardware enablement most of my work is covered by NDAs
<ChrisGagnon> because I work on hardware before it's released to the public
<greg-g> very interesting
<dindatx> ChrisGagnon:  why are you applying for membership now?
<ChrisGagnon> Because I want to become more involved in the community.
<ChrisGagnon> I figured that becoming a member would be a good start.
<dindatx> ChrisGagnon: we'd like that too!  but. . .
<dindatx> ChrisGagnon:  generally membership is gained after a record of community involvement
<greg-g> ChrisGagnon: have you thought about giving an Ubuntu related preso at the LUG? Things like that look good for membership
<dindatx> ChrisGagnon: what sort of involvement are you planning in the next few months?
<ChrisGagnon> I plan on giving an Ubuntu related talk on my automation robot next month...
<ChrisGagnon> I plan on giving an Ubuntu related talk on my automation robot next month...
<ChrisGagnon> lag sorry
<pleia2> oh nice, you're doing it with ubuntu (that was unclear)
<ChrisGagnon> That's been taking up most of my free time, I'd also like to blog about it on the planet ubuntu feed
<ChrisGagnon> I'd also like to blog about my hardware enablement work when that work is no longer covered under NDA
<greg-g> that'd be great
<nhandler> ChrisGagnon: If you are trying to get the word out, you can always send a link to ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com . It might end up in an issue of UWN
<ChrisGagnon> After the hardware has been release and can be purchased preloaded with Ubuntu
<maco> ChrisGagnon: We'd like to see more involvement on the community side of things before you make another application, but please do make one!
<ChrisGagnon> nhandler: I'll send things thanks
<pleia2> yeah, build up a solid base of community work, and the blog posts about hardware stuff would be great and come apply again, right now I don't really see enough work to +1 for membership yet
<ChrisGagnon> ok
<greg-g> but, you're close, and I think your plans for what you want to do are perfect for that
<Pendulum> ChrisGagnon: also, I don't know how far you are from Boston, but that's where the MA LoCo events usually happen
<Pendulum> (and they take all-comers)
<ChrisGagnon> I live too far from boston to make it to their meetings.
<maco> by the way, what you said about the LoCo v. LUG thing:  is the LUG just presentations?
<ChrisGagnon> maco: it's drinking beer and then presentations  :)
<maco> I don't think most LoCos function in a "let's have someone do a presentation each month" way like most LUGs do
<maco> so there may actually be room for a LoCo to hit the streets
<maco> my LoCo has a table at a folk festival each year, and Vancouver's has a table at a farmers' market
<maco> instead of preaching to the choir, they go out and try to spread the word about this "linux for human beings" to the rest of the human beings
<ChrisGagnon> I did pass out ubuntu CDs in hungary's first beer fest at the end of UDS-O :)
<maco> Well, if you get the organizing bug, think of a LoCo being like a street team for a band :)
<greg-g> awesome
<dindatx> ChrisGagnon:  just remember to document everything in your wiki and you'll have no problems next time
<maco> Hmm, looks like the others haven't shown up, so I guess that's it
<maco> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:32.
<ChrisGagnon> dindatx: sounds good
<dindatx> thanks everyone!
<pleia2> thanks everyone
<cyphermox> hmm. anybody actually pinged tenach?
<cyphermox> oh.
<maco> doh
<cyphermox> iamfuzz: you're late!
<cyphermox> ;)
<iamfuzz> cyphermox, sorry, got hung up in personal life
<maco> is there a #restartmeeting command?
<iamfuzz> strange hour this is at!
<cyphermox> all good :)
 * iamfuzz apologizes profusely
<greg-g> hmmm
<iamfuzz> if you guys wanna wait till the next one that's fine
<maco> or maybe #unendmeeting? :P
<maco> do we still have quorum?
<greg-g> lets see if we still have.. yeah, quorum
<maco> pleia2, dindatx, Pendulum: still here?
 * dindatx waves
<iamfuzz> what's quorum
<maco> iamfuzz: enough people to vote
<Pendulum> i'm here
<iamfuzz> maco, no I meant he number for this grp
<iamfuzz> the*
<maco> oh heh sorry
<iamfuzz> ;-)
<greg-g> iamfuzz: are you MOTU already?
<iamfuzz> greg-g, nope, i got rejected for "lack of involvement in the breadth of the community"
<iamfuzz> hence trying to be more involved with the breadth of the community :-)
<greg-g> ahhh, gotcha
<greg-g> iamfuzz: rock, we like that! :)
<iamfuzz> so wanted to be an ubuntu member, shoulda done it 2 years ago
<iamfuzz> wanna start a blog mainly, and join the bug control team
<iamfuzz> often need to edit partner bugs and can't
<maco> mmk
<maco> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:37. The chair is maco.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<maco> [topic] Application of Brian Thomason
<MootBot> New Topic:  Application of Brian Thomason
<dindatx> iamfuzz: interesting that they'd give you the feedback
<greg-g> so, iamfuzz what have you done since the MOTU application?
<greg-g> :)
<iamfuzz> greg-g, quite a bit
<dindatx> iamfuzz: I've seen your name and work around for awhile
<iamfuzz> for MOTU I mainly did security fixes and some merges and SRUs
 * greg-g nods
<iamfuzz> dindatx, indeed, they make it a little harder on us Canonical folk as they don't want it to lok like they rubber stamp us, which is a good thing IMHO
<maco> when was that, BTW?
<iamfuzz> I tried to dabble in a bit of everything, joined a LoCo, threw a release part for Natty for the guys there, got a few packages in universe
<maco> (i dont remember your MOTU application, so i assume "before my time")
<iamfuzz> maco, wanna say almost a year ago now
<maco> ah ok
<cyphermox> oh
<greg-g> how was the release party?
<iamfuzz> I also do a (mostly) weekly post on OMG about cool new apps in software center
<iamfuzz> greg-g, small but fun
<iamfuzz> bout a dozen linux geeks from Ga Tech here
<iamfuzz> we went and had some pizza and I handed out CDs and schwag
<greg-g> aweosme, not a bad turn out really
<iamfuzz> eh, I like big ;-) Was shooting for 30-35
<maco> takes repeat attempts and knowing the address for all the local tech mailing lists to get that ;)
<greg-g> yeah, we usually get around 25ish for the Michigan LoCo release parties. Though, we do have two of them, on both sides of the state, one gets 25ish, the other 15-25
<iamfuzz> thats a good turnout
<iamfuzz> even the "official" montreal one only drew 25
<iamfuzz> geeks don't always get out ;-)
<greg-g> ;)
<dindatx> pleia2: how many did we have at the CA one?
<maco> for DC's we get about 30-ish people, but that includes me emailing all 3 LUGs in the area
<dindatx> lots of surprise guests showed up :)
<greg-g> not sure if pleia2 is still here, actually, she may have ran after the first half of the meeting ended :)
<maco> it's alright, Pendulum's here
<iamfuzz> fair enough, i was extraordinarily late
<maco> she's just stealthy
<iamfuzz> after 7:30 my brain takes a cooldown period
<iamfuzz> my wife said "didn't you have an Ubuntu meeting"
<dindatx> iamfuzz: okay, so sounds like you've become more publically active since last year, that's good
<iamfuzz> tried to, and tried not to do it for the sake of doing it; searched for things I was actually interested in
<greg-g> yeah, looks like your bug list is pretty varied, https://bugs.launchpad.net/~brian-thomason
<dindatx> iamfuzz: are you going back for MOTU approval soon?
<iamfuzz> I'm also now working with nigelb on packaging training starting next week.  We just went through the 500+ FTBFS in Oneiric Universe and will be doing a packaging training/bug squashing session with those
 * maco winces
<iamfuzz> dindatx, yes, probably in 1-2 months
<maco> 500?
<iamfuzz> maco, I scripted it ;-)
<maco> ah
<iamfuzz> he wanted to do it manually as he must enjoy the pain
<maco> are those the ones that are ending up on LP?
<maco> there were 160-ish targetted at alpha 2 last i looked
<iamfuzz> dindatx, I want some of my cloud foundry packages to get into oneiric before I apply again, which should be in ~1 month
<micahg> I think the universe ones were pushed back to alpha3
<maco> ahh
<iamfuzz> maco, not sure, he's targetting these specifically due to a linker issue that raised its ugly head in Oneiric
<maco> micahg: wait so theres 160 ftbfs in *main* then? O_O
<iamfuzz> maco, indeed
<iamfuzz> or at least there were
<maco> criminey
<iamfuzz> 509 last count in Uni
<micahg> 38 packages in main currently on http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/oneiric.html
<maco> i knew we were understaffed but sheesh
<iamfuzz> micahg, theyre knocking them down then
<iamfuzz> 89 last I looked a few days ago
<maco> [vote] Brian Thomason for membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Brian Thomason for membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Pendulum> +1
<dindatx> +1
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pendulum. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from dindatx. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cyphermox> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cyphermox. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<maco> that's everyone?
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<greg-g> yep
<iamfuzz> \o/
<maco> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, iamfuzz !
<cyphermox> congrats iamfuzz
<maco> congrats on membership!
<dindatx> iamfuzz:  congratulations!
<iamfuzz> thanks guys, good to finally be officially ubuntu rather than just canonical
<Pendulum> iamfuzz: congrats!
<iamfuzz> it gets lonely in commercial software land
<maco> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:49.
<greg-g> I bet!
<cyphermox> please don't hesitate to add your blog to planet and let everyone know the cool stuff you add to softwarecenter and all ;)
<pleia2> dindatx: probably at least 35, lucid had over 60!
<iamfuzz> cyphermox, exactly what I had in mind!
<iamfuzz> cyphermox, OMG gets tired of me whoring the commercial stuff and I don't blamem
<micahg> maco: a lot of the main ones remaining could be from the rebuild test and the packages haven't seen new versions yet in oneiric
<iamfuzz> a blog seems the more sensible route
<cyphermox> iamfuzz: but OMG is still a nice place too
<iamfuzz> cyphermox, I love those guys, especially ben
<iamfuzz> I meant their userbase, Ben couldn't care less
<cyphermox> heh.
<iamfuzz> we've just had such an influx lately and noone buying!
<cyphermox> blogging about MOTU or pre-motu stuff is good too :)
<iamfuzz> of course, Cloud Foundry
<iamfuzz> If I can ever wrestle it into submission
<iamfuzz> got the client packaged but the server is a beast
<iamfuzz> and waiting on chrisccoulson to fix a bug in mongodb for me :-)
<iamfuzz> maco, anything I need to do on my end, or will you guys do all the LP/blog magic on yours?
<maco> iamfuzz: you get to do that "add yourself to planet" thing...after we do the rest
<iamfuzz> cool
<greg-g> iamfuzz: you are now in the LP ~ubuntumembers team, so you can do the planet ading part now
<iamfuzz> :-)
 * greg-g waves and leaves -meeting
<MooDoo> hello all
 * pitti waves
 * skaet waves back at pitti
 * NCommander waves
 * ogra_ strands
<skaet> ogra_, strands??
<ogra_> well, you wave i strand :)
<skaet> :)
<skaet> ok,  time to start - welcome all
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> [Topic] Oneiric Release Meeting overview - skaet_
<skaet> .
<skaet> Agenda is at:
<skaet> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-06-17
<skaet> Here is the new proposed regular agenda order.
<skaet> - QA team update -  pgraner or jibel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Release Meeting overview - skaet_
<skaet> - Hardware Certification team update - ara or brendand
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-06-17
<skaet> - Security team update - jdstrand
<skaet> - Kernel team update - ogasawara
<skaet> - Foundations team update - cjwatson
<skaet> - Server team update - Daviey
<skaet> - ARM team update - ogra
<skaet> - Linaro update - fabo
<skaet> - Ubuntu One Team -  Chickapa
<skaet> - Desktop Team update - pitti
<skaet> - Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<skaet> - Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<skaet> - Edubuntu Team update -
<skaet> - Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<skaet> - Any other teams?
<skaet> - Toolchain update - slangasek
<skaet> - MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<skaet> It is in the team agenda.  There's been one special request to shift around for today only from Server team.  ;)
<skaet> If there's no further feedback,  I'll update the calendar invite with the above order.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Events Approaching:
<skaet> - Debian Import Freeze: June 30, 2011
<skaet> - 10.04.3 Freeze: June 30, 2011
<skaet> - Oneiric Alpha 2: July 7, 2011
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs targetted for this release can be found:
<skaet> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs
<skaet> Bugs milestoned for oneiric alpha 2 are at:
<skaet> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/oneiric-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/oneiric-alpha-2
<skaet> .
<skaet> New status site is now up,  and final tweaking of the configs is in progress.
<skaet> [LINK]http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/
<MootBot> LINK received: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/
<skaet> Documentation on how to set up a "topic-" page is available at:
<skaet> [LINK]http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicHowTo/
<MootBot> LINK received: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicHowTo/
<skaet> .
<skaet> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet> questions?
<skaet> ..
<skaet> ok, lets move into round table then....
<skaet> [Topic] QA team update -  pgraner
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update -  pgraner
 * skaet looks around for pgraner or jibel...  hmm?
<skaet> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - brendand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - brendand
<brendand> All I can report is that we've started testing the proposed Maverick kernel
<brendand> ...
<skaet> thanks brendand.   Which oneiric daily do you intend to start testing next week?
<brendand> tbh, i don't know
<brendand> i believe we always use current
<brendand> so it will depend on which day we start
<skaet> do you know which day is likely?
<brendand> i don't
<skaet> brendand,  no worries, I'll follow up with you and ara then offline,  and we'll move on for now.
<skaet> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<skaet> hi  :)
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> We are currently under the trend line for our blueprints. We've had a skeleton crew this week, and our team is mostly concentrating on updates atm, and getting to work items as we can fit them in. I fixed a milestoned libvirt regression (bug #795800) and my patch was accepted upstream. Looking at the (rather long) list of oneiric bugs, I don't see anything else worth highlighting.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 795800 in libvirt (Ubuntu Oneiric) "virsh save fails on oneiric when the apparmor security driver is enabled" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/795800
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet> thanks jdstrand
<skaet> we're talking about getting the list cleaned up a bit off line.
<jdstrand> cool
<skaet> any questions for jdstrand
<skaet> ?
<skaet> [Topic] Kernel team update - ogasawara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - ogasawara
 * skaet looks around for ogasawara or apw?
 * apw is here
<skaet> apw,  any update from kernel team prep'd?
<apw> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> We are making solid if slow progress on our Alpha-2 work items.  Those items which are slipping are non-release critical related to upstreaming older patches.  The oneiric kernel is now at v3.0-1.2 which is based on the v3.0-rc3 upstream snapshot.  We continue to track a small number of version number related issues, the latest in nfs-utils.
<apw> Of the bugs called out on the agenda against the kernel, status is as below:
<apw> #754711 investigation continues, upstream not currently responding,
<apw> #542660 seems that the issue is triggered by bugs in the EFI boot some fixes may be in 3.0 needs testing,
<apw> #760131 local testing looks good with newer 3.0 kernels, some fixes expected via stable for 2.6.38,
<apw> #791552 appears to be fallout from the switch to newer gcc versions where 'undefined behaviour' has changed, upstream still discussing resolutions, and
<apw> #796892 likely this is due to an out of date Oneiric ti-omap4 kernel, test kernels being prepared.
<apw> ..
<skaet> thanks apw! :)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
 * skaet looks around for cjwatson?
<tumbleweed> he was around in #ubuntu-motu 5 mins ago
<cjwatson> sorry, one moment
<cjwatson> Feature progress this week:
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-dhpython-transitions: We have good wiki documentation on doing conversions now.  dh_python2 migration underway and making steady progress (bug 788514, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.html); bug jam planned.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788514 in Ubuntu Oneiric "python packages on the CDs not using dh_python2" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788514
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-live-build: Landed.  A few regressions, but mostly sorted out now.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-great-cd-debate: Switched to hybrid CD/USB images.  amd64 builds regressed but are fixed now.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-python-versions: Discussing Python 3 CD size issues.  It looks as though removing .pyc files from the livefs will offset the extra size of Python 3, although this will need some care.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-wubi: Doing design work and planning slideshow changes.  Removed Windows entries from the Wubi boot menu (which is already chainloaded from Windows).
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-multiarch-next-steps: Trying to keep up with syncs from Debian as they land multiarch patches.  Some GCC fixes.
<cjwatson>  * packageselection-foundations-n-event-based-initramfs: Continuing work on initctl pivot command.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-application-sandboxing: Arkose 1.0 released (http://www.stgraber.org/2011/06/14/app-containing-on-the-modern-linux-desktop/); implemented X, dbus, and pulseaudio sandboxing support.
<cjwatson>  * upstart: Upstart 1.3 released (Ubuntu merge in progress).  Discussion on job aliases and "chkconfig-like" tool.  Working on shutdown improvements.
<cjwatson>  * java: Evaluating JamVM test rebuild failures.
<cjwatson>  * software-center: Lots of planning with design team.
<cjwatson>  * apport: Hook for software-center; include /var in disk checks.
<cjwatson> Bugs:
<cjwatson>  * bug 597673, bug 644198, bug 791883: We'll look at these next week (Evan has been at the QA sprint all week so the installer's been a bit short-staffed).
<cjwatson>  * bug 774999: Michael is on this as of today.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 597673 in console-cyrillic (Ubuntu Oneiric) "console-cyrillic changes settings on consoles it doesn't own, causing crashes with plymouth + X" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/597673
<cjwatson>  * bug 797555: Not actually ours to fix, just requested by us.  Incidentally, I'm told that Canonical folks would be better off requesting manual bootstrap builds like this through RT rather than Launchpad.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 644198 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Ubuntu LIve Cd does not enable bluetooth before choice menu in live-cd" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/644198
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791883 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "ubi-console-setup.py:set_keyboard() gets error 141 (crashes) in Kubuntu" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791883
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 774999 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "[i865G] Upgrade should warn user about lack of support for old 8xx intel hardware" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/774999
<cjwatson> ..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 797555 in libjboss-buildmagic-java (Ubuntu Oneiric) "libjboss-buildmagic-java needs a manual build using the unstable binaries" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/797555
<skaet> Thanks cjwatson!  :)
<mvo> I'm on #774999
<skaet> Thanks for the bug updates,  looks like we should be good going into the rally then.   :)
<skaet> any questions for cjwatson?
<skaet> (and thanks mvo, :) )
<skaet> ok,  skipping server for now,  per request,  will pick it up at end.
<skaet> [Topic] ARM team update - ogra_
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra_
<ogra_> oh, thats me :)
<skaet> :)
<ogra_> Detatiled Status is at:
<ogra_>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> Summary:
<ogra_>  * QA from Ubuntu ARM attended the QA sprint in London last week.
<ogra_>  * Additionally to the normal netinstall images, work on mini isos for netinstall has happened, also omap4 support was merged into debian-installer now
<ogra_>  * Further netboot work is waiting for some linaro u-boot ode to land in the archive.
<ogra_>  * Work on adding the ship seed (preinstall pool) to preinstalled images has been started
<ogra_>  * SD speed optimizations are being merged right now.
<ogra_>  * A lot research of the broken USB support with gcc 4.6 has been done by ppisati but is still unfruitful yet.
<ogra_>  * Work on fixing the kernel/bootloader postinst handling has started.
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> Image Status
<ogra_>  * Desktop images are currently at 1G which is slightly to big and being investigated
<ogra_>  * Headless/serial images build fine.
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> Specs
<ogra_>  * Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<ogra_>  * A2 http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> Bugs:
<ogra_>  * bug 791552 is slowly getting critical
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791552 in linux (Ubuntu Oneiric) "No USB support on beagle/beagleXM" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791552
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> for the question about armhf from last week i just talked to the guys in #linaro-armhf ...
<ogra_> seems the hope is to have a minimal armhf image for oneiric if time permits ... but at least to try to get something bootstrappable ready
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> Thanks ogra_ !  :)
<skaet> I'll mark that action item done then.   And not look at modifying the image testing list for this release.
<ogra_> yeah, i dont think we will se anything that we can call official
<ogra_> but something for the curious to test :)
 * skaet nods 
<skaet> something for the curious is always good though :)
<ogra_> :)
<skaet> any questions for ogra_ ?
<skaet> [Topic] Linaro update - fabo
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - fabo
<fabo> Linaro GCC 4.6 and 4.5 2011.06 released.
<fabo> [LINK] http://launchpad.net/gcc-linaro/4.5/4.5-2011.06-0/+download/gcc-linaro-4.5-2011.06-0.tar.bz2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/gcc-linaro/4.5/4.5-2011.06-0/+download/gcc-linaro-4.5-2011.06-0.tar.bz2
<fabo> [LINK] http://launchpad.net/gcc-linaro/4.6/4.6-2011.06-0/+download/gcc-linaro-4.6-2011.06-0.tar.bz2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/gcc-linaro/4.6/4.6-2011.06-0/+download/gcc-linaro-4.6-2011.06-0.tar.bz2
<fabo> Linaro QEMU 2011.06 released.
<fabo> [LINK] http://launchpad.net/qemu-linaro/trunk/2011.06/+download/qemu-linaro-0.14.50-2011.06-0.tar.gz
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/qemu-linaro/trunk/2011.06/+download/qemu-linaro-0.14.50-2011.06-0.tar.gz
<fabo> Linaro Kernel is freezed on June 23rd for the 11.06 release.
<fabo> it's based on 2.6.39
<fabo> Linaro 11.06 release is planned on June 30th.
<fabo> any questions?
<skaet> Thanks fabo!   good data.  :)
<skaet> you answered mine ;)
<fabo> :)
<skaet> anyone else?
<skaet> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team -  Chipaca
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team -  Chipaca
<Chipaca> Hi
<skaet> :)
<Chipaca> The Ubuntu One installer is currently going through design; engineering work hasn't started yet. Very early days.
<Chipaca> (it's a 'shim' that'll enable us to do the rapid updates we need, plus some text as to why using u1 is a good idea, etc)
<pitti> Chipaca: U1 installer> is that for the external PPA? I thought the agreement was to provide updates as SRUs, possibly with bundled libraries and translations?
<Chipaca> this'll be a step back in how close we've worked (similar to how we worked in 8.04 iirc), while we work out something better in the long term
<Chipaca> pitti: this is an external ppa. we will be providing updates via SRUs and backports and etc, but none of the solutions gets us all the way
<Chipaca> so we have to do them all
<Chipaca> the code itself is not that much, and should be ready in a couple of weeks
<Chipaca> (but, this is not an estimate)
<pitti> for the record, I don't approve this with either my desktop TL nor SRU hat on; if we can't provide it with an SRU with bundled libs and translations, we mustn't provide it at all
<Chipaca> i think that is all
<wendar> pitti: let's wait and see the full details of their plan
<skaet> Thanks for the update Chipaca.  :)   Sounds like there will be more discussion going forward.
<Chipaca> i can get into some details (not sure if this is the venue), not all of them have been worked out, but it seems pitti's objection is deeper
<Chipaca> pitti: you want to talk after the meeting?
<pitti> we can also do that by mail, easier
<wendar> Chipaca: yes, let's continue discussing in email
 * skaet nods
<Chipaca> ok
<Chipaca> ..
<skaet> any other questions for Chipaca?
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop Team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team update - pitti
<pitti> Landed new X.org versions
<pitti> Landed the first bits of GNOME 3.1.x, starting with the lower-level libraries (GTK, etc.); we expect to start with, the UI bits in the next two weeks, now that we have a resonably stable GNOME 3.0 in oneiric.
<pitti> CD space situation: We are 5 (amd64) / 9 (i386 MB oversized again, due to the new Mono transition, new mesa GLES support, and an extra 1 MB due to the new CD format; we expect 4.5 MB growth from new X.org gallium drivers with LLVM, and potential growth of ~ 6 to 10 MB for thunderbird (not firmly decided yet). We already implemented many of the biggest space savings (removing icons, removing less
<pitti> important software), though. Completing the Mono transition will give us back some 2 MB, and we just discovered that we can free some 12 MB by dropping *.pyc files from the squashfs and regenerate them at install time.
<pitti> Slow progress on RC bugs, as we are concentrating on updating the platform and getting work items done in this period, and there are no real showstopper bugs right now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus#rcbugs
<pitti> The most tricky bugs right now are:
<pitti> - bug 772873: Not really something new, but seems to have aggravated; we don't have someone who knows enough about compositing and VNC to do much about it, so we can only wait for upstream there.
<pitti> - bug 787694: This is a prerequisite for a tight integration of the Ubuntu settings panels into the GNOME control center; however, this is still being discussed, it could also be that we drop the control center shell and provide a unity lens for it, in which case this wouldn't be needed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772873 in vino (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Vino does not work with compositing" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772873
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 787694 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu Oneiric) "GNOME 3 System Settings: Allow Python Programs (or general programs) as embedded capplet" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/787694
<skaet> ..?
<pitti> ..
<pitti> sorry
 * pitti should add that to his c&p report
<skaet> pitti, does it make sense to leave 772873 milestoned at A2,  since we're waiting on upstream.
<skaet> :)
<pitti> it's not
<pitti> it doesn't make sense, no; it's by far not a milestone blocker
<pitti> we do have one milestone blocker which causes empathy and deja-dup to get unusably slow, but it's not reported as a bug yet (fix is being worked on upstream)
<skaet> thanks for the heads up.
<pitti> we had several bugs which are true milestone blockers, but we usually get them fixed within days anyway
 * skaet nods
<skaet> any other questions for pitti?
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hi
<skaet> hi :)
<dbarth> report as usual at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/OneiricReleaseStatus
<dbarth> in short, we're finally making tarballs and releasing parts into oneiric
<dbarth> new unity-2d https://launchpad.net/unity-2d/+milestone/3.8.8
<dbarth> new unity-gl
<dbarth> new overlay scrollbar https://launchpad.net/ayatana-scrollbar/0.2/0.2.1
<dbarth> New sound API update, with accompanying sound indicator: https://launchpad.net/indicator-sound/fourth/0.7.1
<dbarth> also a couple of touch libs updates: utouch-grail 2.0.0 and utouch-geis 2.1.0 to Oneiric
<dbarth> see the report for further details
<dbarth> there are a couple FTBS and issues that are being worked on by chase and cjwatson i think
<dbarth> a few thngs are late however
<dbarth> libgrip, gtk23shim; we'll do better next week
<dbarth> also, at last we landed the natty SRUs for unity
<dbarth> and the cert team has been able to confirm the changes do fix a good part of the garbled screen bug
<dbarth> the multi-monitor part is still being investigated, but it's at the driver level now, we're almost sure
<dbarth> ..
<cjwatson> there was a dpkg bug which broke a load of stuff (much broader than only DX), fixed an hour or so ago
<dbarth> ok thanks, cnd will retry uploads soon
<skaet> Thank dbarth.  :)  any update on the bugs - will the new drops fix some of them?
<dbarth> the bugs fixed are attached in the release notes of the upload (SRUs)
<dbarth> and for oneiric, there are also quite a few that are fixed
<dbarth> in unity-2d i have the link handy
<dbarth> for unity-gl i'm still waiting for the actual upload to have the full list
<dbarth> but it will come as a set of milestoned bugs as well
<ogra_> i noticed that we default to have composite on in metacity for unity-2d, that breaks a lot of apps that use fake transparency (i.e. gksudo has a black background instead of a transparent one)
<ogra_> do you plan to keep that on ?
<ogra_> if so, such apps will likely need to be touched
<dbarth> ogra_: ah ok
<dbarth> ogra_: hmm
<dbarth> if there are loads of them, adding unity-2d tasks may be a bit difficult to deal with
<dbarth> ogra_: can we see the list offline with Kaleo?
<ogra_> i dont think there are loads
<dbarth> to assess whether we can fix the apps, or need to revert to non-composite by default
<ogra_> for now i noticed gksu only, but i guess you will see it with other apps that dont use proper compositing
<ogra_> xchat might be affected
<ogra_> (havent tested that)
<ogra_> but yeah, lets take that offline
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> thanks dbarth, ogra_   :)
<dbarth> ok
<skaet> any other questions for dbarth ?
<skaet> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
 * skaet lookin around, but sees ScottK's marked away
<tumbleweed> last I saw, he said he was in an airport, with spotty wifi
<tumbleweed> presumably gone
<skaet> thanks tumbleweed,  guess we'll move on.
<skaet> [Topic] Edubuntu Team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Edubuntu Team update
<skaet> [Topic] Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<MootBot> New Topic:  Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu goals for Oneiric are defined at
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Oneiric/DeltaReviewAndCleanup
<charlie-tca> This is what we will use instead of blueprints.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is trying to cut as many gnome dependencies as we can for Oneiric, since Xfce will stay at GTK2.
<charlie-tca> We don't have any bugs to add at this time, since we haven't any images to determine if bugs are valid.
<charlie-tca> ..
<skaet> Thanks charlie-tca!  :)
<skaet> Any specific blockers on why you don't have images?
<charlie-tca> no, just the change to the builds, I believe.
<charlie-tca> cjwatson has been working on the images.
<ogra_> that should have settled by now ...
<charlie-tca> some of the fixes just got finished today
<cjwatson> you got an i386 image yesterday
<cjwatson> but yeah, there've been a few problems, I don't have any open ones at the moment
<charlie-tca> It still had the partitioning error. You respun Ubuntu, but not ours
<charlie-tca> The only image today was the 386 alternate
<cjwatson> true
<cjwatson> today's was bitten by the dpkg multiarch/triggers failure
<cjwatson> not actually a cdimage problem as such
<charlie-tca> Then I have no images
<cjwatson> such is life in a development cycle
<charlie-tca> agreed
<charlie-tca> I am patient. Hopefully, monday will be better
<cjwatson> you just have to keep squashing build problems with alacrity
<skaet> thanks charlie-tca, cjwatson - fingers crossed for better images next week.
<skaet> any other questions for charlie-tca?
<skaet> [Topic] Toolchain update - slangasek
<MootBot> New Topic:  Toolchain update - slangasek
<slangasek> hi there
<skaet> :)
<slangasek> the big thing in the pipe right now is that doko is evaluating eglibc 2.14
<slangasek> the known breakage this will bring is that rpc support is disabled by default in 2.14, so anything that needs rpc headers would need to start build-depending on libtirpc instead
<slangasek> otherwise, not much movement this week; I don't have an eta on when we'll be starting full-archive rebuild tests
<slangasek> ..
<skaet> Thanks slangasek! :)
<skaet> appreciate the head's up on eglibc 2.14 breakage.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> hi
<tumbleweed> Universe plods along, as ever.
<tumbleweed> Toyed with some approaches to monitor FTBFSs. skaet suggested linking FTBFS bugs to a blueprint for a burndown table, but the LP API doesn't permit that.
<tumbleweed> (And we need some automated cleanup of bugs tagged ftbfs when a build succeeds before that would be accurate)
<tumbleweed> I've started collecting the csv files qa.ubuntuwire spits out, and will do some historical graphing from them.
<tumbleweed> Getting that on ubuntuwire would be nice, anyone know if the source is public?
<tumbleweed> nigelb and iamfuzz have a preliminary list of linker-related issuse suitable for a fixing-jam announc
<tumbleweed> ement.
<tumbleweed> ..
<skaet> Thanks tumbleweed! :)
<skaet> Looking forward to seeing what the graphing looks like from the csv files.
<skaet> any questions for tumbleweed ?
<tumbleweed> it'll take a few weeks before they are interesting
 * skaet nods
<skaet> am not sure who can help on the ubuntuwire side, but will poke around
<nigelb> tumbleweed: there's #ubuntuwire for talking to ubuntuwire folks
<skaet> thanks nigelb :)
<tumbleweed> nigelb: yeah, and I think /ftbfs/ is james_ws
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Community input on Q/R dates - wendar
<MootBot> New Topic:  Community input on Q/R dates - wendar
 * skaet looks around for wendar?
<wendar> Summary:
<wendar>  * Feature Freeze date more relevant than release date for most development, but some upstreams align with our cycle and make bug fix releases after FF.
<wendar>  * End of the month better for likely KDE upstream schedule, for bug fix releases.
<wendar>  * Halloween gets +2 for being home, no votes for being at UDS that week.
<wendar> Are there other points people would like to add to that list?
<skaet> ..?
<wendar> Then I'll hand the input off to our Release Manager for consideration.
<skaet> Thanks wendar
<Daviey> ... /me is checking the dates for the next Openstack Design Summit, last UDS caused issues with that.
<cjwatson> wendar: too close to end of the month for final releases causes high bandwidth costs because the payment stretches across two calendar months, I'm told
<skaet> will check in with a few of the other stakeholders,  and then make some revisions.   Appreciate your gathering and summarizing of the input :)
<cjwatson> so it would be best not right at the end if possible
<skaet> good point cjwatson.
<cjwatson> (that's just final release, FF obviously doesn't matter in that way)
<skaet> anyone else have comments?
<skaet> [Topic] Server team update - Daviey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - Daviey
<Daviey> o/
<skaet> :)
<Daviey> Hello!
<Daviey> == Feature Work: == * To enable tracking, for the core server deliverables we have added a topic:
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<Daviey> We do need to reset the trend line and this is still WIP to fully give a rounded overview.
<Daviey> Generally, progress on the feature work has been quite good.  It feels it has slowed this week, as we have hit a few walls.  However, we are bouncing onwards and upwards.
<Daviey> * server-o-cobbler-next-steps - Most of the A2 commitments are DONE * server-o-drop-vmbuilder - Blocked on direction * server-o-ensemble - Most of declared commitments are either DONE or well under way INPROGRESS (awaiting zookeeper related work in Debian) * server-o-ubuntu-orchestra-server - largely meta blueprint, but making OK progress.
<Daviey>  * server-o-arm-erver - NCommander is driving this.  Not beent able to sync since last meeting. Will follow up on. * server-o-openstack - Heavy burden on MIR's.  Oh joy. * server-o-boot-experience - My understanding that this is make slow progress, need evaluate. * server-o-puppet-integration - adam_g spent a while onsite with puppet, and is collecting the achieved work; and hoping to showcase it soon.
<Daviey> == Bugs: == - Comment: Incoming bug count for Oneirc is low. Natty incoming is higher. :(
<Daviey> Bug 791454 - Needs to be reproduced.. not yet been looked at.  Will be a priority first part of next week.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791454 in mdadm (Ubuntu) "Oneiric Alpha1 Server x86 and x86_64 RAID1 Test Failed: Device need to be readded manually" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791454
<Daviey> ..
<skaet> Thanks Daviey !  :)
<Daviey> pah, line break fail.
<skaet> heh,  it was readable
<skaet> which is appreciated
<skaet> looks pretty good for this point in the cycle.
<skaet> any questions?
<Daviey> none from me.
<Daviey> any to me? :)
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any questions for Daviey ?
<skaet> lol
<skaet> [TOPIC] any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other business?
<skaet> I'm going to be on vacation next week.
<skaet> wendar has kindly agreed to host this meeting.
<skaet> any agenda changes,  etc.  please address to her next week.
<skaet> ..
<Daviey> skaet: have fun!
<skaet> Daviey, :)  yup will do.
<skaet> anything else?
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:30.
<skaet> whewh... snuck it in right under the wire....
<skaet> thank you   brendand, jdstrand, apw, cjwatson,  ogra_, Chipaca, pitti, dbarth, charlie_tca, wendar, tumbleweed, Daviey
<jdstrand> thanks skaet
<pitti> thanks everyone! have a nice weekend
<charlie-tca> now to the weekly Q&A which is accessibility this week
<apw> skaet, thanks
<skaet> have fun with that charlie-tca :)
<charlie-tca> thanks
<Chipaca> cheers
<Daviey> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-19
<BlouBlou> I can't loggin in ubuntu wiki with OpenID (it just doesn't work, no errors, no anything), can I create my personal page with anonymous IP, adding a link to my personal launchpad?
<laoshi> seems that there is a problem - I'm trying to log in to edit an existing page, but it is no-go. at login the page continues to be 'waiting for wiki.ubuntu.com' - and reloading doesn't help, either.
<czajkowski> well there is no message in canonical-sysadmin
<czajkowski> perhaps asking but note people may not be around as it is the weekend ?
<laoshi> after several minutes I get this error message: 'Proxy Error The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.The proxy server could not handle the request GET /.Reason: Error reading from remote server'
<laoshi> is the error message I get after several minutes
<elky> there appear to be other services also down. one assumes the sysadmins will have noticed
<tumbleweed> also, #ubuntu-meeting isn't a support channel, it's just a place where people hold meetings :)
<czajkowski> laoshi: as I said #canonical-sysadmin is the channel to ask in. but there may not be people there
<laoshi> ok - thanks
<ruralhack> Hi guys and gals, I made a site so more people adopt Open Source and Ubuntu...
<ruralhack> www.ruralmethod.com
<ruralhack> I don't know if this is the right place to share.
<ruralhack> please forgive me if I've done something wrong. my intentions are honorable
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-11
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<jjohansen> o/
<mdeslaur> sbeattie, micahg: wake up
<micahg> o/
<sbeattie> hey
<mdeslaur> hehe
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 11 18:02:01 2012 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
<mdeslaur> No announcements!
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
<mdeslaur> No previous action items.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of any previous action items
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week. I'm off on thursday and friday
<mdeslaur> I'm currently working on mysql updates which should be out today
<mdeslaur> and have some other stuff queued up behind that
<mdeslaur> and wednesday I'm on patch piloting duty
<mdeslaur> that's it for me. sbeattie
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up!
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week
<sbeattie> I'll also be working on synchronizing the versions of openjdk 6 for the older releases
<mdeslaur> buildd DoS :)
<sbeattie> heh, yeah
<sbeattie> I need to get the apparmor SRU for precise back on the front burner, it keeps falling behind the stove.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: you're up
<micahg> sbeattie: you don't want to look behind my stove ;)
<micahg> anyways, looking into potential regressions in the pending thunderbird 13 update, then back to webkit, with a side of chromium hopefully if my fix for the translations issue works
<micahg> I was asked by the Thunderbird QA team if we can get some Ubuntu folk helping with Thunderbird QA test days, next one is here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:QA_TestDay:2012-06-14
<micahg> Knowing that our builds work up front helps us push out the release faster as we shouldn't be running into show stoppers after the final builds are spun
<micahg> people can use the ppa:mozillateam/thunderbird-next builds for the Thunderbird QA test day
<micahg> if there are no questions, I'll pass the baton to tyhicks
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I am still trying to get all of my ecryptfs patches out to the list. The number of patches grew last week because a fuzzer keeps hitting a BUG() in the /dev/ecryptfs code. I've got that fixed now, too.
<tyhicks> The LUKS work item is still next on my list
<tyhicks> then I'll get back to updates
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> okay, I need to finish up some last minute testing on an embargoed issue, and then I need to get back to my essential work items
 * jjohansen was thinking of working on set perm tracking
<jjohansen> oh and I suppose I need to update work items, /me hasn't been doing that for the last couple of weeks
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: that would be nice, yeah :)
<jjohansen> I think that is it from /me back to you mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/putty.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dropbear.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/smsclient.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/netsurf.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libphp-adodb.html
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> ok, that's it
<mdeslaur> thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> <thank all participants>
<mdeslaur> whoops :)
<jjohansen> thanks mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 11 18:16:26 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-11-18.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-11-18.02.html
<sbeattie> thanks mdeslaur!
<mdz> cjwatson, please tell me the TB meeting is nowish, and not an hour ago or an hour hence :-)
 * kees hopes it's now too
<soren> o/
<soren> mdz: It's supposed to be now, at least.
<kees> there's nothing on the agenda from what I can see. meet again in two weeks then?
<mdz> fine by me
<stgraber> mdz, kees, soren: sorry for missing the TB meeting, in the middle of a (virtual) sprint and didn't see my phone meeting notification until now...
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-12
<Rellis> Hi
<cjwatson> mdz: urgh, sorry, I completely missed this last night (same virtual sprint as stgraber, and so for once I finished work more or less on time)
<jamespage> o/
<arosales> Hello
<smoser> o/
<m_3> hola
<rbasak> \o
<arosales> Its top of the hour so lets get started. I am going to give chairing the meeting a whack. So please bear with me and correct me where needed :-)
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 12 16:00:52 2012 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<arosales> rbasak: how is the migration to ubuntuserver.org going?
<rbasak> I had assumed that was a joke action. I have no knowledge of ubuntuserver.org or anything surrounding it whatsoever.
<arosales> I think that was in reference to our server team blog, correct
<smoser> hm.. funny. it probably was a joke action and then got carried over too.
<smoser> nice. for shame on whoever chaired last week.
<arosales> If so, are there any objections about where the blog current lives?
<rbasak> I would just like to see the typo fixed, which is how I ended up with the joke action
<m_3> rbasak: I think you were dissing the site and got volunteered by the meeting chair :)
<arosales> rbasak: where is that typo again?
<rbasak> In the headline
<rbasak> peices
<arosales> ah ok, here https://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/
<arosales> rbasak:  did you want to follow up with jamespage and see who has access and get that corrected?
<arosales> rbask, if not I can.
<jamespage> arosales, rbasak: I think I might have access
<rbasak> I don't think it's worth me being involved. I know nothing about it, and am not sure what I can add
<rbasak> (apart from another cook for the broth)
<arosales> ok, I will follow up
<SpamapS> o/
<arosales> #action arosales to correct "pieces" on ubuntu server blog
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales to correct "pieces" on ubuntu server blog
<arosales> smoser:  did you have a chance to follow up with rbasak on bug 972077
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972077 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt repository disk format has race conditions" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972077
<smoser> rbasak, ping, re 972077
<smoser> (no, i didn't. but i will)
<arosales> ok thanks smoser
<arosales> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Precise Development
<arosales> bugs
<arosales> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<arosales> bug https://launchpad.net/bugs/974584
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 974584 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Quantal) "Semaphores cannot be created in lxc container" [High,Triaged]
<arosales> hallyn: were you taking a look at this one ^
<arosales> bug 920197
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 920197 in python-webob (Ubuntu Quantal) "[SRU] webob last stable version 1.1.1 response header bug" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/920197
<arosales> zul: and jamespage this one queued up correctly for SRU in 12.04.1?
<jamespage> yep
<zul> yep
<arosales> cool thanks zul and jamespage
<arosales> bug 1001846
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1001846 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "cobbler fails to install with error code 1" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1001846
<hallyn> hm, yeah, i dropped the fix for bug 974584 both in debian and ubuntu bugs, i don't have upload rights...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 974584 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Quantal) "Semaphores cannot be created in lxc container" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/974584
<arosales> smoser: I think you were looking for more info on this one did airtonix give what was needed?
<hallyn> think the debian maintainer got sick of me
<arosales> hallyn: thanks for the update on 974584
 * smoser re-looks
<arosales> hallyn: let us know if you don't get a response soon
<arosales> smoser: thanks
<arosales> bug https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009294
<smoser> hm... roaksoax is not around. i think there is enough info in that bug to move forward.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009294 in Ubuntu Precise "Grub update breaks automated dist-upgrade scripts on AMI images" [High,Fix committed]
<arosales> smoser: looks like you had the todo here to get the fix commited. Is that now in the ubuntu cloud images?
<arosales> well catch roaksoax later on the cobbler bug
<arosales> bug 880339
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880339 in mysql-5.5 (Ubuntu Precise) "AppArmor profile needs update" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880339
<smoser> someone should verify images are fixed for that cloud image bug
<smoser> and we need to refresh the 12.04 images.
<utlemming> smoser: I can do that...
<SpamapS> arosales: that one is a dupe of one that I'm working on
<arosales> jamespage:  I think you were tracking bug 880339, is that now fixed?
<utlemming> smoser: and I plan on re-spinning precise ASAP
<SpamapS> arosales: I think we can drop it from the list, having been incomplete without a response for so long
<arosales> utlemming: could you help with verifying the fix smoser commited?
<utlemming> arosales: yup
<arosales> utlemming: thanks
<hallyn> arosales: i've got a note in my tickler to bug ubuntu-devel on thu if no action from maintainer
<jamespage> arosales, yes - SpamapS please could you ensure the bug that you are working on has a task for precise and is targetted to 12.04.1
<arosales> #action drop 880339 from bug list â no response
<meetingology> ACTION: drop 880339 from bug list â no response
<SpamapS> arosales: no action needed
<arosales> thanks SpamapS
<arosales> ah, ok :-)
<SpamapS> arosales: its already closed as Invalid actually
<SpamapS> there was a recent response.. that the user had screwed it up themselves
<arosales> I'll make sure to remove the subscription of ubuntu server team too
<Daviey> (sorry for speaking out of turn.. but the ubuntuserver.org blog transition wasn't a joke action.. it needs to happen, and rbask wanted to see it improved.)
<arosales> bug 993291
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 993291 in nis (Ubuntu Quantal) "[SRU] package nis 3.17-32ubuntu1.2 failed to install/upgrade: invoke-rc.d: unknown initscript, /etc/init.d/nis not found." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/993291
<arosales> jamespage: looks like 993291 is tracking ok, correct?
<jamespage> arosales, yeah - I just picked that up
<arosales> jamespage: ok, thanks
<arosales> bug 1009553
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009553 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "jeos install oversized" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009553
 * jamespage is unsurprised
<arosales> jamespage:  is this one a result of just droping -virtual kernel?
<arosales> any fix needed?
<jamespage> well its always close to the line - but yes that does seem to be the problem this release
<Daviey> Well, we should dive for extra opportunities to reduce it's size
<Daviey> but growth is expected.
<jamespage> I'm not sure TBH - I though the -virtual piece was going to be managed with additional module packages
<jamespage> which is the bulk of the oversize ATM
<jamespage> ~60MB I think
<jamespage> smb`, any opinion on ^^
 * smb` tries to catch up
<utlemming> jamespage: -virtual did indeed get dropped...and the kernel bloat in the AMI's is ~200M as a result
<jamespage> utlemming, sounds about right :-)
<arosales> in parallel for bug 920197, zul is that progressing as expected?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 920197 in python-webob (Ubuntu Quantal) "[SRU] webob last stable version 1.1.1 response header bug" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/920197
<zul> arosales: no it needs some work still which im doing this afternoon
<smb`> utlemming, Why there would be a virtual meta which only consists of the smaller part
<utlemming> smb: is there a -virtual meta then?
<arosales> zul: ok thanks. Make sure to ping smoser or jamespage both on the 12.04.1 team if any assistance is needed.
<smb`> utlemming, linux-generic-meta -> linxu-image-generic + linux-image-extra-generic   vs. linux-virtual-meta -> linux-image-generic
<zul> arosales: ack
<jamespage> smb`, utlemming: sounds like we are bloating out to much
<jamespage> arosales, please action smb, utlemming and I to discuss offline
<jamespage> well online but not in this meeting :-)
<utlemming> +1, we'll discuss this right after
<smb`> jamespage, At least that is the theory, we need to reality check but, yes put up an action
<arosales> #action jamespage and utlemming to discuss dropping -virtual kernel; re bug 1009553
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage and utlemming to discuss dropping -virtual kernel; re bug 1009553
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009553 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "jeos install oversized" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009553
<arosales> utlemming: jamespage and smb thanks
<jamespage> ta
<arosales> bug 1008537
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008537 in webkit (Ubuntu) "[FTBFS] Segmentation fault during tests" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1008537
<arosales> failed to build
<arosales> may be similar to bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/968308
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 968308 in openjdk-6 (Ubuntu) "Opening Eclipse workbench causes SIGSEGV" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<arosales> anyone interested in taking a look ?
<arosales> webkit and sphinx
<arosales> any interested folks?
<Daviey> i'll investigate it.
<arosales> Daviey: thanks
<arosales> moving onto blueprints http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/ubuntu-server.html
<arosales> so we got some good work items documented, and dependencies liked to topics.
<arosales> please take a look if the dependency linkage looks correct for your blueprint
<arosales> also be sure to be implementing the blueprint spec into blueprints, jamespage do you have a link handy?
<jamespage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BlueprintSpec
<arosales> jamespage: thanks
<jamespage> I do - thanks skaet!
<arosales> Any other items on blueprints?
 * arosales forgot the two topics under quantal dev
<hallyn> hm, in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-server-iso-tests-review, i hope someone will explain to me what that action item assigned to me is
<arosales> jamespage:  can you assist hallyn with work items on the ISO tesing?
<jamespage> hallyn, arosales: yep
<arosales> #action jamespage to follow up with hallyn on servercloud-q-server-iso-tests-review
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage to follow up with hallyn on servercloud-q-server-iso-tests-review
<arosales> jamespage: thanks
<hallyn> thx
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> jim is at  http://static.usenix.org/events/config10/index.html
<arosales> this week
<arosales> Velocity coming up in a couple of weeks.
<arosales> any other events?
<jamespage> I pretending to be hazmat at EuroPycon at the start of July
<arosales> cool, should be fun pretending to be hazmat :-)
<SpamapS> jamespage: I can't wait to see your beard :)
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<arosales> hggdh: Any updates from QA?
<jamespage> SpamapS, I'm working on that :-)
<jamespage> hggdh, whats the current status on UTAH?
<arosales> perhaps hggdh isn't around at the moment. hggdh please feel free to comment if you return.
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<arosales> smb`:  how is the kernel looking?
<smb`> Mostly harmless...
<arosales> any questions for smb` ?
<arosales> thanks smb`
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Calxeda's Highbank machine is now enabled in Quantal! We're planning a more detailed announcement on this soon, including installation instructions. MAAS support for this machine is now the next step.
<rbasak> Any questions for me?
<arosales> woot :-)
<arosales> no other questions for rbasak
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<utlemming> rbasak: so we need to get together
<utlemming> and get the armhf images using the Highbank then
<arosales> Daviey: I'll follow up with rbasak on seeing how we can get our server team blog moved to the correct home. I have an action items to correct the spelling so I'll investigate the move with rbask.
 * rbasak just wanted the typo fixed!
<rbasak> That'll be <5 minutes for someone with access, right?
<Daviey> rbasak: we need to move it regardless
<Daviey> rbasak: You volunteered AIUI.
<rbasak> Where should it go?
<arosales> #action utlemming to follow up with rbasak on getting armhf images using highbank.
<meetingology> ACTION: utlemming to follow up with rbasak on getting armhf images using highbank.
 * rbasak didn't volunteer. He just asked for the typo to be fixed.
<Daviey> rbasak: canonical hosted.. under that domain (owned by canonical)
<m_3> prob a good idea to talk to jcastro about it
<Daviey> rbasak: just need to raise an RT and get IS to setup wordpress under that domain.
<Daviey> and migrate content... can you take that?
<rbasak> Who has access to the current wordpress?
<rbasak> To migrate content I'll want access
<Daviey> rbasak: it's wordpress.org.. so all of us.
<Daviey> err, .com
<rbasak> Credentials?
<Daviey> rbasak: anyone on the team can have an account
<rbasak> Who has admin access?
<Daviey> rbasak: If you don't have one, i can add you.
<rbasak> Please
<Daviey> rbasak: lets take this offline.
<arosales> ok, thanks Daviey
<arosales> Any other topics to discuss?
<arosales> ok, thanks for everyone's time
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<jamespage> o/
<jamespage> I had one actually
<arosales> Tuesday 2012-06-19 at 1600 UTC
<arosales> jamespage:  go
<jamespage> OK - so smoser and I and representing the server team for the 12.04.1 release
<Daviey> so don't mess it up.
<jamespage> we have a regular catchup with all of the other 12.04.1 folk every 2 weeks
<jamespage> I spent some time updating zul's reports - http://people.canonical.com/~jamespage/server-sru/precise-sru.html
<jamespage> it you come across any bugs that should be SRU'ed please raise tasks for precise and target them to 12.04.1 - that way they will appear in the report
<jamespage> assigning someone or an upload being accepted into -proposed results in them moving to 'inflight'
<jamespage> I'd also like to have a regular slot in the meeting as well
<jamespage> not to review the entire report but to focus on any problematic bugs...
<jamespage> oh - http://people.canonical.com/~jamespage/server-sru/ contains series based reports for all supported releases as well
<arosales> perhaps after the quantal development section
<jamespage> that would make sense to me
<arosales> #action arosales to add 12.04.1 Development section
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales to add 12.04.1 Development section
<arosales> jamespage: and smoser 	thanks for rep'ing server in the 12.04.01 team
<arosales> any other items to discuss
<arosales> Next meeting is Tuesday 2012-06-19 at 1600 UTC. Thanks for attending, and bearing with me ;-)
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 12 16:45:55 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-12-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-12-16.00.html
<jamespage> thanks arosales - great first chair!
<hggdh> for the record -- UTAH is getting ready to have some tests ported
<arosales> thanks hggdh
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 12 17:00:05 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<herton> o/
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> -\o/-
<henrix> o/
<cking> \o
<kamal> o/
<BenC> o/
<sconklin_> o/
<arges> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Q/omap4: no new code was committed since last week, kept working on the configuration (delta reduction against master).
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> yeek, just a sec
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/canonical-kernel-distro-team-quantal-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 4 work item   ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 3 work items  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || cking       || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || cooloney    || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || jjohansen   || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || jk-         || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || cyphermox   || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee    || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || smb         || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner    || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || tlei        || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || kernel-team || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-2 work
<ogasawara> items.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have recently rebased the Quantal kernel to the latest v3.5-rc2
<ogasawara> upstream kernel.  I'd like to see a little more smoke testing before
<ogasawara> uploading.
<ogasawara> We've also began providing the 12.10 kernel for 12.04.  We welcome any
<ogasawara> early adopters to please install, test, and let us know your feedback.
<ogasawara> It is available from the following PPA:
<ogasawara> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/q-lts-backport
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Jun 28 - Alpha 2 (~2 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (June  05):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy    - 2.6.24-31.102 - Being prepared; 2 CVEs
<bjf>  * Lucid    - 2.6.32-41.91  - Being prepared; 2 CVEs
<bjf>  * Natty    - 2.6.38-15.61  - Being prepared; 3 CVEs
<bjf>  * Oneiric  - 3.0.0-22.36   - Being prepared; 1 upstream stable release (approx. 60 commits), 1 CVE
<bjf>  * Precise  - 3.2.0-26.41   - Being prepared; 1 upstream stable release (approx. 137 commits)
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin_> == 2012-06-12 (weekly) ==
<sconklin_> Currently we have 89 CVEs on our radar, with 0 new CVEs added this week.
<sconklin_> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin_> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin_> There is no change in the backlog this week:
<sconklin_> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin_> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin_> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<kamal> o/
<jsalisbury> kamal, go
<BenC> o/
<kamal> I've recently been working with the upstream Bufferbloat group: http://www.bufferbloat.net ...
<kamal> They have implemented new network scheduler algorithms designed to address the performance drag induced by large unmanaged network buffers.  The new stuff ("fq_codel" and "codel") just landed in linux 3.5.
<kamal> A good article about the bufferbloat problem and the new scheduling algo's is here: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2209336
<kamal> The result is *very* impressive:  I see a 30X reduction in ping latency on a fully saturated 10Mbps network, just by switching on the new fq_codel scheduler.
<kamal> For an interactive ssh session over that same saturated 10Mbps network, fq_codel totally eliminates the laggy keyboard response -- it feels like there's no other network traffic at all!
<kamal> I have produced a Bufferbloat PPA to allow us to experiment with this stuff now in Precise and Quantal:
<kamal> https://launchpad.net/~kamalmostafa/+archive/bufferbloat
<kamal> The PPA includes a "quantal-3.4-plus-bufferbloat" kernel for precise and quantal.  (The new schedulers won't work on pre-3.3 kernels).  The PPA page links to a quick how-to-smoke-test-it guide and more info.
<kamal> The Bufferbloat group is eager for testing and feedback and general eyeball time from the Ubuntu kernel team and the Ubuntu community.  Their channel is #bufferbloat on freenode.
<kamal> Please give my PPA a whirl, and get a taste of the new cutting-edge network goodness.  Any questions about it -- I'll at least know who to direct you to, so feel free to ask me.
<kamal> ..
<jsalisbury> BenC, go
<BenC> I had this on the meeting agenda, but don't see it above.
<BenC> Trying to get some feedback for the patches I sent to kernel-team@, hoping to get it merged for next kernel upload
<BenC> Re: PowerPC e500mc
<BenC> ..
<apw> BenC, i think that are being reviewed at the moment arn't they ?
<BenC> If so, I'm unaware :)
<BenC> Also, if there are any suggestions on changes to my workflow for getting powerpc stuff merged, let me know
<bjf> we are looking at them and seeing if they scare us or not
<BenC> bjf: The only scary one(s) are the mdio phy changes, but I have tested them extensively on non-ppc
<tgardner> BenC: just got back after 5 days off. they are on my todo list.
<BenC> Everything else is either nop or segmented on non-ppc
<BenC> tgardner: thanks
<bjf> a lot of the patches are sauce, are those also heading upstream ?
<BenC> All of them have been pushed upstream
<BenC> 2 have been accepted
<tgardner> BenC: I should have some comments by tomorrow. got a huge pile of email to deal with...
<BenC> Oh wait, not the SAUCE, not yet
<BenC> freescale had 360+ patches last year, so they've done a lot to get this merged upstream
<BenC> These are the last few, and are being dealt with in the coming months
<BenC> tgardner: ok, please email, ping me if any questions come upâ¦
<tgardner> will do
<tgardner> ..
<BenC> ..
<jsalisbury> Anything else for open discussion?
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 12 17:12:39 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-12-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-12-17.00.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-13
<MetrosenRJ> Hey guys
<MetrosenRJ> I have a laptop with sis chipset vieo mirage 3672, I installed ubuntu 12, 04 and downloaded the driver sis 672 and installed it, got a resolution of 1280 x 800 but I can not run videos in any player or the VLC, the time that the video is loaded it gives log out. I can not also change the theme options, someone knows a solution?
<MetrosenRJ> ??
<micahg> MetrosenRJ: try #ubuntu, this is a meeting channel
<MetrosenRJ> como Ã© um canal de reuniÃ£o do ubuntu, eu achei que poderia encontrar ajuda referente aoubuntu aqui. Que tipo de assuntos sÃ£o tratados nesta reuniao senÃ£o problemas do sistema operacional?
<MetrosenRJ> as a channel meeting of ubuntu, I thought you might find help for aoubuntu here. What kind of issues are addressed in this meeting only operating system problems?
<MetrosenRJ> micahg : if I can not get help in the ubuntu channel where I can get?
<balloons> aloha everyone!
<balloons> shall we begin?
<phillw> yup:)
<balloons> #startmeeting QA Community IRC Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 13 14:01:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Community IRC Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<balloons> who's all about?
<phillw> o/
<gema> o/
<balloons> awesome, we have gema today :-)
<balloons> alrighty anyway.. let's dive in
<balloons> no previous actions again, so we can go straight to topic
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Community IRC Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Updates
<balloons> gema, I'll let you give an update of what your team is doing
<gema> balloons: hi, thanks
<gema> so we are working on moving iso testing into utah, which is ready to start producing results
<gema> we are also trying to add coverage to kernel sru testing, in particular to lts backports
<gema> and we are working on a dashboard to extract all teh results from jenkins and present them in a better way
<gema> I think that is all from us, really, we started to have public team meetings on monday
<gema> so if anyone wants to follow more closely what we are doing
<gema> they are welcome to watch them either live of after the event
 * astraljava apologizes for being late
<gema> that's all from me
 * astraljava also apologizes for stepping in between gema's update
<gema> astraljava: no worries, I was just finishing, welcome :D
<astraljava> Danke. :)
<balloons> thanks gema.. The first of such videos is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ED30JebT4
<balloons> I can assume the rest wil show up on that channel right?
<gema> yes, I will be uploading them weekly
<gema> in any case, if you guys use g+, just add me and it will appear on your stream
<balloons> alright, any questions for gema?
<astraljava> gema: Your real name isn't visible with nickserv. How can we find you on G+?
<gema> gema.gomez-solano@canonical.com should do the trick
<astraljava> Thanks!
<gema> if you find two gema gomezs just pick the one with the ubuntu logo
<balloons> hehe
<gema> I will add you guys back
<astraljava> Excellent, thanks! :)
<balloons> Alright, so I'll give a quick update myself then from the community side
<balloons> Since alpha 1 released after the meeting last week, I don't think we had a chance to cover it yet :-) So in short, I think the pre-testing focus week was successful, even though we announced late and only had a few days instead of the whole week. Many thanks to those of you who ran the daily in advance. At least 4 bugs were found and fixed, preventing respins which is good news
<balloons> jibel's full report can be seen here; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/QuantalAlpha1TestReport. However I would like to point out that we hit 100% mandatory coverage on the ubuntu desktop iso's which is awesome.
<balloons> So currently, we have a call for kernel testing the 12.10 kernel on 12.04, and we're using a new build of qatracker to do it
<balloons> Any feedback on how the tracker is working would be most welcome.
<balloons> As far as what's coming up, the first roundtable with the community team leads will be happening in a couple weeks. I'm excitied about all of us getting together and be able to collaborate and help each other
<balloons> Additionally, work will be on-going to migrate the manual testcases over to the qatracker, and I'll be updating and ensuring the tests are in good shape and make sense for what's needed
<balloons> Lastly, as you may have seen, read or heard about on this blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-q-friendly-integration
<balloons> plans are being made this cycle to bring the community hardware database to life. I am doing some technical work this week with the HEXR team to plan i
<balloons> fingers crossed, it's something we may see this cycle, which would be a nice surprise :-0
<balloons> any questions for me?
<balloons> k, if not then, let's move on
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Community IRC Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Flavor Updates
<balloons> phillw, would you like to kick us off with lubuntu?
<phillw> all is suspiciously quiet with lubuntu. No major issues
<balloons> hehe.. fair enough
<balloons> alright, astraljava care to go next?
<astraljava> I can, for sure.
<astraljava> On the Xubuntu side, we updated to Xfce 4.10 for quantal. I haven't heard of any big issues, but quite frankly, I don't think that many people are testing it ATM.
<astraljava> I haven't, which is baaad.
<astraljava> But I will try to pick up that soonish, it's been a tough spring/early summer.
<astraljava> On the Studio side, the change with Xfce caused our images not to build. This has just recently been addressed, so no testing on this has happened either.
<astraljava> We're waiting on first images in the next couple of following days.
<astraljava> ..
<balloons> astraljava, so you'll be all set for alpha 2?
<astraljava> We're gonna have to go through a lot for that to happen, but we're having a Xubuntu QA meeting this Sunday, so let me get back to you on that one. :)
<astraljava> On Studio, I'm not too sure.
<astraljava> Things sadly fell apart for Studio after the release of precise.
<astraljava> We've been trying to get things going again, but it's been a slow progress.
<astraljava> ..
<astraljava> Oh, one more thing.
<astraljava> We're having a Xubuntu Team meeting right after this one, so I'll know more in 2 hours.
<astraljava> .. (now for realsies)
<balloons> astraljava, alright thank you for the update
<balloons> anyone from kubuntu about?
<balloons> alright, how about edubuntu?
<balloons> ok, let's move on then
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Community IRC Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other topics
<phillw> o/
<balloons> last but not least.. anything else you guys want to chat about?
<balloons> phillw, go ahead
<phillw> One more (did I say this earlier?): apport now tells me when I try to
<phillw> report a bug that is already known, but fails to provide me a link to
<phillw> the Laundpad bug report concerned... can we please make it let me click
<phillw> through to view that bug, or at least display the bug number for me?
<phillw> from one of our testers
<balloons> phillw, right now, if you hit details you can see the bug number, I do know that
<balloons> it's the "duplicateof" tag
<balloons> however, the point is still well taken
<balloons> is there an enhancement request opened under apport? if you file one, I'll bring it up directly
<balloons> apport is getting changes as usual over the course of the cycle
<balloons> I think how it handles dupes could be improved.. and your suggestion is a step towards that
<phillw> I'll ask JM to raise a bug.
<astraljava> o/
<balloons> astraljava, shoot
<balloons> phillw, yes and then just pass the number to me if you would. thanks!
<astraljava> One particular question about the roundtable meeting, and one general one for handling the meeting requests/invitations.
<astraljava> First, what's the correct time for the roundtable meeting?
<astraljava> I was told the link has a different time than what's actually in the email.
 * balloons goes to look
<balloons> I have it at 1700 UC
<astraljava> The second has to do with the google calendar links. As my email that I use for ubuntu-related work isn't a google one, is there a way to make it work with the calendar invitations automagically? I do have a google account, but can it make use other emails so that invitations to that other email are identified with my google account as well?
<balloons> i said we'd be meeting at 1600 UTC looks like in the email
<balloons> google calendar doesn't do daylight savings, and it makes scheduling this stuff an epic fail, since it shows on my personal calendar incorrectly
<astraljava> Yeah. :)
<balloons> so I believe I adjusted the meeting manually so it popped at the proper local time
<balloons> this meeting is notoriously bad for that as well.. :-)
 * astraljava recalls it as such, yes... :)
<balloons> I never know when it is, until I simply scheduled it at the wrong time in google calendar
<balloons> which of course, is actually the proper time in EDT, not ESt
<balloons> anyways, I digress
<astraljava> So, on UTC, it is...?
<balloons> 1600 UTC
<astraljava> Ok, thanks.
<balloons> pencil that in however you must
<balloons> :-)
<astraljava> If anyone has info on my second question, it'd be greatly appreciated.
<astraljava> Sure. :)
<balloons> on the google calendar thing.. umm, you can import events to your google calendar
<balloons> or try forwarding the email as is to your google account
<astraljava> Ok, I'll try that, thanks.
<balloons> alrighty, anything else?
<balloons> if not, you know what that means
 * gema runs to her next meeting..
<balloons> :-)
<astraljava> PAH-TEE?!
 * balloons feels like we need a closing theme music
<balloons> yes, the end.
<balloons> thanks for coming everyone!
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 13 14:47:46 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-14.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-14.01.html
<gema> thank you for chairing and cheering us up :D
<astraljava> Thanks all, Nick for chairing!
<phillw> +1
<balloons> happy to.. if anyone ever wants to guest chair btw, don't feel like it's not an option :-)
<astraljava> I'm available if I'm available, I could need some practice. :)
<balloons> astraljava, send me a mail whenever you'd like. we can make it happen
<astraljava> Sure thing.
<kanliot> hi
<jmarsden|work> #startmeeting Lubuntu Weekly Meeting 2012-06-13
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 13 20:02:57 2012 UTC.  The chair is jmarsden|work. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting 2012-06-13 Meeting | Current topic:
<rafaellaguna> hiya
<jmarsden|work> o/
<phillw> o/
<kanliot> o/
<jmarsden|work> Is that all we've got? :)
<rafaellaguna> we're in family :D
<jmarsden|work> OK.
<jmarsden|work> #topic Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting 2012-06-13 Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
<jmarsden|work> We had two actions last time I think...
<jmarsden|work> phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
<jmarsden|work> phillw: did that happen?
<phillw> i have a draft :)
<jmarsden|work> OK, that's progress... we'll make it an action again this week...
<jmarsden|work> #action phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
<meetingology> ACTION: phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
<jmarsden|work> The other one was:
<jmarsden|work> jmarsden to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview with the main changes that have occured,  and any significant bugs
<jmarsden|work> I didn't do that but phillw did, and I then made a minor edit... so that one is done, and Julien will try to kepe us updated as things progress.
<jmarsden|work> OK... oh...
<jmarsden|work> #action jmarsden to provide pretty wiki pages for meetings of 6/5 and 6/13
<meetingology> ACTION: jmarsden to provide pretty wiki pages for meetings of 6/5 and 6/13
<jmarsden|work> Since I forgot about that last week!
<phillw> easily forgotten
<jmarsden|work> So... only real item this week is...
<jmarsden|work> #topic rafaellaguna - web (or whatever) team assignment
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting 2012-06-13 Meeting | Current topic:  rafaellaguna - web (or whatever) team assignment
<jmarsden|work> rafaellaguna: you have the floor
<rafaellaguna> yep, artwork here
<rafaellaguna> this is more a question, than other thing
<rafaellaguna> I was speaking with some Canonical design board crew
<rafaellaguna> ...also I'm in contact with Rick Spencer, Artwork leader for Ubuntu (and flavours). He did the guidelines
<rafaellaguna> The question is... now we're an official flavour (a bit late to ask about this) must we follow the Ubuntu procedures? Xubuntu and Kubuntu did
<jmarsden|work> Procedures for what?  and where are they documented?
<rafaellaguna> I mean, the project leader assigns a Tem for a task (just like us) but once assigned this team is responsible for the final decision. Is this too SABDFL / Maritocratic?
<rafaellaguna> You saw what happened with the web issue. I don't really know who's the decision to make one or other thing
<jmarsden|work> He who owns a domain name and pays for bandwidth and server space gets to decide what happens on that server/site.  No procedure in the world can change that, as far as I know.
<rafaellaguna> Rick and Iain, from  Canonical, recommended some type of vote selection and decision polithics
<rafaellaguna> @jmarsden: right
<meetingology> rafaellaguna: Error: "jmarsden:" is not a valid command.
<rafaellaguna> jmarsden: right
<rafaellaguna> But excuse me for saying this, but I see a bit disorder right now, maybe it's because we're a bit un-headed
<jmarsden|work> So currently lubuntu.net is owned by and registered to Mario, and he arranged for bandwidth and server space for it.  So what happens on it is his baby, unless he chooses to grant priviledges on it to others.
<rafaellaguna> So, the artwork decision should be responsability only for Artwork Team, after mailing lists voting?
<rafaellaguna> And, in this case, for Mario, of course
<rafaellaguna> Easier: who's my (and frankbooth) boss?
<jmarsden|work> For artwork that ends up within the Lubuntu software project itself, yes, I would say we should let the Artwork team decide, subject to appropriate following of whatever rules Ubuntu as a whole imposes for artwork.
<rafaellaguna> ok
<jmarsden|work> Obviously all artwork that ends up in the project needs to be packaged and uploaded by someone with upload rights, which at the moment in practice means Julien, but I'd be surprised if he "betoed" artwork choices the artwork team makes.
<jmarsden|work> *vetoed
<rafaellaguna> no, usually is the "normal" people who wants to make veto :)
<jmarsden|work> They can try all they like, it's just noise :)
<rafaellaguna> But in the mailing lists, I should listen to them
<jmarsden|work> Of course, it's wise to listen to others, we are a community.
<rafaellaguna> even with those "bad words" and stupid suggestions
<rafaellaguna> As far as we are a community we should listen to them, but you confirmed that the Team rules
<jmarsden|work> But you are not under an obligation to accept or follow specific directions from random people on the mailing list.  In the end artwork choices are made by the artwork team, yes.  That makes sense to me.
<jmarsden|work> Anyone else have a different viewpoint on this?
<rafaellaguna> clear o_O
<jmarsden|work> OK, good.
<jmarsden|work> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting 2012-06-13 Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<kanliot> no business
<rafaellaguna> :D
<rafaellaguna> third time, beer!
<jmarsden|work> OK... sorry, i was in a conversation here locally...
<jmarsden|work> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 13 20:30:14 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-20.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-20.02.html
<jmarsden|work> Thanks everyone!
<rafaellaguna> cheers!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-14
 * xnox 0/
<stgraber> xnox: you're a bit early ;)
 * xnox got a google calendar pop-up ;-)
<vibhav> Did I miss the MOTU meeting?
<vibhav> The MOTU meeting is today, right?
<vibhav> Oh wait, I didnt miss it ^_^
 * skaet  waves
<stokachu> o/
<xnox> vibhav: http://www.threadless.com/product/1466/Now_Panic_and_Freak_Out
<seb128> skaet, hey
<stgraber> #startmeeting Ubuntu 12.04.1 team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 14 14:00:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:
 * jibel waves
<stgraber> #topic Action items review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Action items review
<stgraber> "stgraber to setup wiki page for the team, send initial meeting notes, update calendar entry"
<stgraber> DONE and spammed everyone about it :)
<stgraber> "xnox to prepare a target list for fs stack for 12.04.1"
<stgraber> "xnox to liase with ballons, gema and jibel w.r.t. fs/storage testing"
<stgraber> xnox: ^
<xnox> I have a list of things for 12.04.1 to discuss (typing it up now)
<xnox> liasing with QA people, postponed due to python sprint. Still a todo.
 * xnox carry on, while I'm preparing a short paragraph about fs stuff
<stokachu> stgraber: i dont see that email about wiki page
<stgraber> stokachu: it was sent to ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-release
<stgraber> The wiki page is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/12.04.1
<stgraber> "skaet to get an update on the status of daily QA testing of whether these are all being run still in jenkins, and where to find the results."
<stgraber> skaet: ^
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-May/001276.html
<stokachu> thanks
<skaet> yes they are being run in jenkin
<skaet> talked to jibel about it after the meeting.
<skaet> continue on and I'll paste the link
<skaet> ..
<stgraber> ok, thanks
<stgraber> #topic Review of upcoming deadlines
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review of upcoming deadlines
<stgraber> The first deadline listed for 12.04.1 is on the 2nd of August, so nothing to be extremely worried about just yet.
<seb128> do we need to get the channel topic changed this way? it's taking 5 lines of backlog every time and making the meeting log hard to follow
<arges> o/  what would be the timeframe to get things uploaded into -proposed for it to land in main by then
<stgraber> seb128: I don't particularly like it, but I kind of like meetingology doing the meeting notes, so I have to live with it ;)
<seb128> arges, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule has the schedule
<seb128> arges, early august
<arges> seb128, gotcha
<stgraber> arges: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PointReleaseProcess gives some more details on that but assuming you can make sure the SRU gets verified as soon as it lands, anything that lands before August should be good, after that, it's going to get trickier
<arges> ok thanks
<stgraber> #topic Quick look through the current bug lists, checking for progress
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Quick look through the current bug lists, checking for progress
<stokachu> == Are definitely ready for 12.04.1 ==
<stokachu> ----
<stokachu> || '''bug''' || '''summary''' || '''notes''' ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/922514|922514]] || convert package to multiarch || Verify package is in 12.04 ||
<stokachu> == Needs love ==
<stokachu> ----
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/977952|977952]] || multiarch libonoboui  || Needs SRU ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/977959|977959]] || multiarch libgnome    || Upstream work started, needs more tlc ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/977940|977940]] || multiarch gnome-vfs   || Needs SRU, acceptance for Precise series ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/977964|977964]] || multiarch libart-lgpl || Upstream work complete, needs SRU ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/977966|977966]] || multiarch orbit2      || This is in -proposed, setting 12.04.1 milestone for tracking ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/890928|890828]] || multiarch libxkbfile  || Needs completed SRU (test case, regression potential) ||
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922514 in libgnomeui (Ubuntu) "<libglade> libgnome.so: cannot open shared object file" [High,Fix released]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977952 in libbonoboui (Ubuntu Precise) "Please transition libbonoboui to multi-arch" [Medium,Triaged]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977959 in libgnome (Ubuntu) "Please transition libgnome to multi-arch" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977940 in gnome-vfs (Ubuntu) "Please transition gnome-vfs to multi-arch" [Undecided,In progress]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977964 in libart-lgpl (Ubuntu) "Please transition libart-lgpl to multi-arch" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977966 in orbit2 (Debian) "Please transition orbit2 to multi-arch " [Unknown,New]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890928 in libxkbfile (Ubuntu Precise) "When trying to install libxkbfile1:i386 the pkg manager asks to remove too many important packages [Multi-arch]" [Low,Fix committed]
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/859512|859512]] || multiarch libdbusmenu || This is released, however, bug indicates it is incomplete ||
<stokachu> == Incomplete but needs consideration ==
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/977947|977947]] || multiarch libbonobo   || Needs update ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/932860|932860]] || multiarch appmenu-gtk || Still contains packaging issues, needs more time to investigate ||
<stokachu> || [[http://pad.lv/919298|919298]] || unity-greeter crashes if no user account shown || Partial fix applied to quantal, needs precise nomination and a completed fix ||
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 859512 in libdbusmenu (Ubuntu) "Please convert libdbusmenu to multiarch" [Medium,Fix released]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977947 in libbonobo (Ubuntu Quantal) "Please transition libbonobo to multi-arch" [Medium,Triaged]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932860 in AppMenu GTK+ "Broken (or missing) multiarch support" [Low,Confirmed]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 919298 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Crashes if no user account shown" [Low,Fix released]
<stokachu> i've set some bugs to be nominated for precise, when that happens ill target 12.04.1 milestone
<stgraber> ok, let me quickly accept the nomination then
<stokachu> the last 3 need more work than the rest and could possibly be rejected for 12.04.1
<skaet> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise/view/All%20Precise/  <-- link to precise daily run results.
 * xnox 0/ ready with the fs plan for a discussion on how sensible it is, probably towards the end of the meeting, before AOB
<stgraber> stokachu: nominations accepted
<stokachu> stgraber: thanks, ill go through and target milestones after meeting
<arges> stgraber, stokachu : i can help with the targeting too
<seb128> stokachu, you probably want appmenu-gtk multiarched, that's an issue coming frequently in user comments and bugs
<seb128> stokachu, i.e better to not reject it if possible
<stokachu> seb128: ok, ill add that to my priority list to get fixed
<stokachu> i think its *half* complete
<stgraber> any other bugs that aren't on the current lists and should be worked on for 12.04.1?
<seb128> stokachu, thanks
<seb128> stgraber, stokachu: on multiarch issue I think somebody should check on bug #885492, gnome-keyring
<stokachu> yes ive got three more
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885492 in gnome-keyring (Ubuntu) "p11-kit: couldn't load module: /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/pkcs11/gnome-keyring-pkcs11.so" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885492
<stokachu> just came in
<seb128> that seems to come often as well
<stokachu> seb128: ill get that added to list
<seb128> thanks
<stokachu> im supposed to be finishing up the multiarch stuff
<stokachu> So i havent actually reviewed these ones yet, they just came in
<stokachu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/972537
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972537 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "lightdm doesn't allow expired passwords" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<stokachu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/226780
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 226780 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt-key net-update does not obey APT::Acquire::http::Proxy" [Medium,Triaged]
<stokachu> the second one i need to backport the timeout in apt-key
<stgraber> stokachu: let me know if you need review and sponsoring to quantal and precise-proposed
<stokachu> oh wait different bug
<stokachu> stgraber: this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/226780 needs nomination approval
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 226780 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt-key net-update does not obey APT::Acquire::http::Proxy" [Medium,Triaged]
<arges> stgraber, for these bugs, whats the best way to get your attention for review/sponsoring?
<stgraber> stokachu: that lightdm seems pretty annoying for corporate deployments, sounds like a good candidate for the point release indeed
<stgraber> arges: easiest way is to ping me on IRC, you can also go through the official sponsoring process but as I'm interested in these bugs anyway, I'm happy to do the review directly
<stokachu> stgraber: could you approve the lightdm for precise as well?
<arges> stgraber, ok thanks.
<seb128> stokachu, I approved it
<stokachu> thanks seb128
<stgraber> I'm guessing seb128, smoser, NCommander and jamespage can also help with the uploads
<jamespage> stgraber, yep
<seb128> what uploads?
<seb128> sponsoring you mean?
<stokachu> yea me and arges would need sponsors
<stgraber> seb128: yes, review + sponsoring of the changes stokachu and arges are working on
<seb128> oh
<seb128> yeah, feel free to ping me for any desktop upload
<stokachu> could i kindly ask sponsors to monitor the 12.04.1 milestone :D
<seb128> or just subscribe ubuntu-sponsors, I review the queue regularly for desktop uploads
<stokachu> seb128: ok ill have 2 bugs for you soon as I talk to a coworker
<seb128> stokachu, great
<stgraber> would probably be nice if we could have a report of the 12.04.1 milestone listing all the bugs that have one of "patch attached", "branch linked", "fixed in development release"
<stokachu> arges: ^
<stokachu> :D
<stgraber> that'd basically list most "easy" bugs that are just waiting for someone to cherry-pick and upload (or just sponsor if it's a debdiff/packaging branch)
<stokachu> agreed
<jamespage> stgraber, we've been using a SRU report for the server team packages that could be extended todo that
<jamespage> http://people.canonical.com/~jamespage/server-sru/precise-sru.html
<arges> stokachu, ack
<jamespage> ATM its just used for assessing candidates and monitoring SRU progress
<xnox> sponsorship page has (sru) tags, but not sure if it lists 12.04.1 explicitly
<stgraber> xnox: right, and it assumes that someone subscribed sponsor to it, which isn't always the case when the bug is fixed in quantal but not in precise-updates
<xnox> i see
<stokachu> i wish we had 1 application to generate all these reports :D
<stgraber> so can anyone take an action of getting some basic report for 12.04.1 online?
<stokachu> xmarks laughs at me during bookmark s yncs
<stokachu> stgraber: i think arges agreed to do it
<arges> stokachu, ssh don't tell everybody....  ok i'll do it
<xnox> stokachu: ultimate-debian-database has a lot of queriable bugs. maybe ubuntuwire can be consulted in those.
<stokachu> xnox: sounds good to me :D
<stgraber> #action arges to work on a 12.04.1 bug report, showing targeted bugs and information on status in development release, patches attached and branches linked
<meetingology> ACTION: arges to work on a 12.04.1 bug report, showing targeted bugs and information on status in development release, patches attached and branches linked
<skaet> :)
<xnox> arges: now even google will now you are doing this =) by scaping meetingology logs
<arges> oh noes
<arges> yea, i have some scripts / pages i can adapt to do this
<stgraber> #topic Round table
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Round table
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~$ echo $(shuf -e NCommander seb128 stgraber stokachu arges jibel skaet smoser jamespage xnox)
<stgraber> stokachu smoser jibel seb128 NCommander arges jamespage xnox skaet stgraber
<stgraber> stokachu: you win!
<stokachu> yay!
 * xnox is confused what is round table?
<stokachu> xnox: was gonna ask the same thing LOL
<xnox> stokachu: apparently it's like spin the wheel, cause you won!
<seb128> stokachu, you are first, you figure it out!
<stgraber> hehe, right. skaet suggested we have a quick roundtable to know what people have been up to regarding 12.04.1/SRU work for the past two weeks
<seb128> stokachu, make something good from it ;-)
 * xnox shall talk about fs stuff then?!
<stokachu> ha.. first things first.. i wore pants today
<seb128> is that unusual? don't feel like you have to get overdressed for those meetings :p
<stgraber> so if you need help with somehting you're working on for 12.04.1, it's the right time to ask ;)
<stgraber> xnox: yep, that'd be the right time to mention that
<stokachu> We (SEG) have a pretty good idea of what needs SRU's and those that need more attention to get into SRU state. Once we have a compiled list for target milestone we will triage out the work to rest of team to get handled
<stokachu> Right now multi-arch is our biggest workload for 12.04.1
<stokachu> done
<stgraber> smoser:
<stgraber> hmm, haven't seen him in the meeting actually
<stgraber> jibel:
<jibel> hi
<jibel> watching daily jobs, no failure with the images itselfs
<jibel> re-ran failed jobs for i386 and they passed. connection to bazaar failed.
<jibel> there is an issue on universe upgrade that will need to investigate. It fails from time to time and saw the same failure reported by the community
<jibel> that's all from me
<jibel> ..
<stgraber> seb128:
<seb128> we are looking at the user feedback and trying to address top issues from bugs reports and whoopsie
<seb128> GNOME 3.4.2 updates are mostly in, there is no formal 3.4.3 planned so at this point we mostly cherry pick fixes
<seb128> if you have any bugs that we should look at which is not milestoned let me know
<seb128> otherwise we have steady flow on fixes uploaded, SRU team is having an hard time to review things in time
<seb128> they had a meeting this week and say they should address that though so let's see
<seb128> ..
<stgraber> NCommander:
<stgraber> arges:
<arges> Working with SEG/stokachu to identify relevant bugs for 12.04.1, helping target bugs.
<arges> ..
 * xnox wonders if stgraber is running a timeout stopwatch
<stgraber> jamespage:
<jamespage> Refactored the Server SRU reporting to be series centric - http://people.canonical.com/~jamespage/server-sru/precise-sru.html
<jamespage> 12.04.1 progress will also be discussed at the weekly server team meeting to monitor progress and discuss anything thats stuck.
<arges> las
<arges> whoops
<jamespage> zul has been working on the first set of SRU's for openstack components
<jamespage> and I've been nudging through a few SRU's myself...
<jamespage> ..
<stgraber> xnox:
<xnox> I have been pondering what to do with various fs packages to make
<xnox> 12.04.1 more stable/supportable release for the next 5 years.
<xnox> FS updates plan for 12.04.1
<xnox> * e2fsprogs 1.42-1ubuntu2 -> 1.42.4-3ubuntu1 (same as quantal)
<xnox> ** http://pad.lv/978012
<xnox> Stable SRUable micro point release, fixing importnant bugs and regressions
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 978012 in e2fsprogs (Ubuntu Quantal) "Please merge now available e2fsprogs 1.42.4-2 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [High,In progress]
<xnox> * mdadm 3.2.3-2ubuntu1 -> 3.2.5-1ubuntu1 (not done yet)
<xnox> ** no bug number yet
<xnox> Stable SRUable micro point release, fixing regressions.
<xnox> Fixing packaging mistakes which left out: allowing to use
<xnox> isw (intel martrix raid) and ddf (standard raid) in udev rules,
<xnox> shipping required mdmon unitility for isw, settling events to
<xnox> prevent boot timeouts and droping into initramfs.
<xnox> * btrfs-progs
<xnox> Will *not* get an SRU all the way from 20100601->20120328
<xnox> I do want to provide a backport.
<xnox> Will fix SRU like bugs which prevent booting without dropping
<xnox> into initramfs shell.
<xnox> * lvm2
<xnox> May need SRU to fix some bugs, didn't check the list of open bugs yet.
<xnox> Any others, that I am missing which potentially have 12.04.1
<xnox> worthly stuff? Let me know, by subscribing me to the bugs on
<xnox> launchpad. Is this minimal enough for SRU? I do not want this to
<xnox> be treated as MRE or anything on-going.
<xnox> discuss =)
<xnox> ..
<xnox> any questions?!
<xnox> =)
<stokachu> xnox: in 20 words or less can you describe the increasing velocity of a flying elephant against highwinds and in the winter?!?
<xnox> stokachu: it's fairly constant
<stokachu> nice!
<skaet> :)
<stgraber> xnox: I'll need to look, but I believe the new iscsi stack fixes some pretty nasty bugs we had in oneiric and precise (when your root fs is on iscsi)
 * xnox takes a note to look into iscsi stack
<stgraber> xnox: I worked around these in oneiric (by not starting the iscsi client daemon when / is on iscsi) but remember seeing bug activity that the new upstream fixes that and we should now be able to start the daemon without lossing access to /
<xnox> well fedora shipped the 'new' scsi / kernel stack
 * xnox wonders if iscsi is server's team responsibility or the foundations. me knows little about iscsi, unless I have to dive into that....
<stgraber> xnox: the workaround was for bug 838809 and that caused bug 961114
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 838809 in open-iscsi (Ubuntu Oneiric) "authenticated and unauthenicated iscsi clients fails to complete boot" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/838809
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 961114 in open-iscsi (Ubuntu) "iscsid fails to reopen a connection established by iscsistart" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/961114
<xnox> stgraber: thanks.
<stgraber> xnox: it's kind of blurry, IIRC server is doing the testing but for these bugs at least, I ended up being the one to work on them (so foundations)
<stgraber> ..
<stgraber> skaet:
<jamespage> stgraber, I think I worked with you on that one
<skaet> grouped all the 12.04.1 blueprints I could find together at:
<skaet> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/group/topic-quantal-release-sru-and-12.04.1.html
<skaet> so we can monitor as we approach this point release.  If you know of one missed, not on the list, please let me know (or add it directly ;) ).
<skaet> Started discussions off with stable release team on ways we can start to tame the backlog on the SRU pe
<skaet> nding,  which overlaps with this a bit, but is solving a bigger problem.
<skaet> ..
<jamespage> xnox, I have some scripts that might help with testing
<stgraber> stgraber:
 * xnox jamespage:  yes please
<stgraber> I've mostly been helping doing sru verification, looking at any >= 7 days item in the queue and trying to follow the testcases to get the in -updates
<stgraber> that's been working quite well, unblocking quite a few SRUs. It's really painful for these that were pushed before the test case became a requirement though
<stokachu> could we get help from QA on the SRU test cases portion?
<xnox> stokachu: as far as I know QA does QA of the development release / automatation. not SRUs.
<stgraber> there are also a few that seem to be stuck as nobody can actually confirm that they work. IIRC one is a bug that pretty much never happens (weird race condition) and another bug requires a new build of gfxboot + media in a weird language to check that the fix works (problem being, the language in question was never mentioned in the bug)
<stokachu> xnox: that makes me sad
<seb128> whoever fixed the bug probably has that info?
<stgraber> jibel: can you maybe comment on what QA is doing/planning to do for 12.04.1?
<seb128> well I don't think we have so many SRUS that we need QA help
<seb128> it usually takes 5 minutes to follow the verification steps
<stgraber> seb128: in gfxboot's case, no, because the "fix" is a LP translation refresh done by cjwatson, we need the reporter to re-test in their environment
<seb128> I tend to do the desktop ones and we never got blocked so far
<xnox> well precise daily images are being spinned and tested, as far as I know.
<stgraber> xnox: not with -proposed
<stokachu> tested as far as just installation and booting?
<jibel> we do install testing of dailies, daily upgrade testing, we will do milestone testing for Ubuntu and can help with SRU verification on demand.
<stokachu> sweet thanks jibel
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<stgraber> First thing, does this meeting format work for you?
<stokachu> works4me
<xnox> needs more funny jokes
<stokachu> lol
<stgraber> xnox: well, you have two weeks to write some down ;)
<seb128> stgraber, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2012-April/005367.html
<skaet> fine for me.
<seb128> stgraber, that's the gfxboot bug
<seb128> stgraber, we should probably apply the "diff looks sane, no visible regression" rule for it
<stgraber> seb128: cool! with that it should be pretty easy to test. Yeah, that was my fallback option, just ensure that the diff is indeed just a translation refresh and mark it verification-done
<seb128> stgraber, the meeting format works for me as well
<arges> yes
<stokachu> anyone considered transifex.net for localization on Ubuntu?
<seb128> stokachu, do you keep the list of bugs you want to see fixed somewhere? or do you just milestone them the standard way?
<stokachu> seb128: so far we've milestoned them
<seb128> stokachu, no, we have launchpad translations
<seb128> stokachu, why would we change for something less integrated to ubuntu?
<xnox> stokachu: we have launchpad rossetta translations which are shared translations from all open-source projects with compatible licenses
<stokachu> seb128: arges will have a report generated of the ones that need to be completed and those waiting on sponsorship etc
<seb128> stokachu, ok
<stgraber> I'll update the wiki and send the minutes to ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-release. If you have anything else to discuss before our next meeting, use the ubuntu-release mailing list.
<xnox> stokachu: but launchpad generates languages statistics like that
<stokachu> ah cool
<arges> yup,
<xnox> and it's not sponsorship, but approval needed, updated translations, released
<stokachu> cool, simple enough :D
 * arges writes that in his copy book.
<xnox> stokachu: launchpad is the only thing that suggest translations from other packages such that you get a consistent translation across the whole desktop.
<xnox> ..
<xnox> AAOB?
<stgraber> well, we're out of time. Thanks everyone for attending and see you all in two weeks!
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 14 15:00:01 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-14-14.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-14-14.00.html
<stokachu> see ya!
 * xnox thank you all
<cjwatson> stgraber: Oh, I can do the gfxboot case, I've just been meaning to get around to sorting out images suitably built from -proposed
<stgraber> cjwatson: that'd be great
<seb128> thanks
<seb128> stokachu, what's the issue with libdbusmenu multiarching?
<seb128> i.e why bug #859512 just won a precise line?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 859512 in libdbusmenu (Ubuntu Precise) "Please convert libdbusmenu to multiarch" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/859512
<seb128> stgraber, ^
<stokachu> seb128: i think this is just being marked to make sure its included with point release
<stokachu> in addition to appmenu-gtk multiarch fixes
<seb128> stokachu, I though libdusmenu was multiarched before precise?
<seb128> stokachu, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libdbusmenu/0.5.0-1ubuntu1
<stokachu> seb128: does this bug need to be closed then?
<seb128> stokachu, well, I'm asking why it just got reopen, it was closed
<seb128> stgraber, just opened a precise component for it follow what you said in the meeting I guess?
<stgraber> seb128: yeah, I just accepted the nomination for all the bugs stokachu listed
<stokachu> seb128: maybe i messed up somewhere
<stokachu> seb128: can you re-close that bug then and we can remove it from sru list?
<seb128> stokachu, where is the SRU list?
<stokachu> seb128: sorry i meant the 12.04.1 milestone list on LP
<seb128> stokachu, url?
<seb128> stokachu, the milestones list should only list open bugs
<seb128> stokachu, i.e that bug is closed it shouldn't have ever been on the list?
<stokachu> seb128: ok we're good then
<stokachu> seb128: i double checked and its not listed
<stokachu> seb128: sorry my multitasking is sub par atm
<seb128> stokachu, no worry
<dholbach> o/
<coolbhavi> hi dholbach
<dholbach> anybody here for the MOTU meeting? :)
<on3_g> <o/ dholbach
<Riddell> Kubuntu meeting in #kubuntu-devel if anyone is here for it
<dholbach> Riddell, oh sorry - is #ubuntu-meeting usually booked for the Kubuntu meeting at this time?
<Riddell> dholbach: no I failed to do any booking
<dholbach> yeah, we haven't finally agreed on meeting times which is why it's not on the Fridge yet, but it looked empty, so we went ahead :)
<dholbach> coolbhavi, on3_g: maybe we just start and see who else hops in
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 14 16:02:47 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<dholbach> it seems the agenda is pretty much the same as last time: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<dholbach> but we can use that to catch up on the things we talked last time
<dholbach> #topic meeting times
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: meeting times
<dholbach> so the last time we said this:
<dholbach> Proposals: either keep time 16 UTC (every 2nd/4th Thursday), or use old
<dholbach> MOTU meeting times: alternate between 4 UTC, 12 UTC and 20 UTC, or use
<dholbach> the RMB meeting times: alternate between 12 UTC and 22 UTC.
<dholbach> I started a separate thread on the motu mailing list and it'd be good if everybody weighed in with their personal preference
<dholbach> coolbhavi, particularly for you I could imagine that other times than 16 UTC might work better :)
<dholbach> I guess I'll send a reminder to the list about it again
<dholbach> Ok, let's move on - the list will probably the best place to discuss it
<dholbach> #topic MOTU School (Bhavani Shankar)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU School (Bhavani Shankar)
<coolbhavi> dholbach, this time works for me most times except few times :) 16 UTC or earlier :)
<Laney> I'd try to turn up at any reasonable UK time
<Laney> but wouldn't get out of bed :P
<dholbach> coolbhavi, ^ do you have updates on the MOTU school sessions?
<dholbach> Laney, that's always a good place for meetings ;-)
<coolbhavi> dholbach, sent out a doodle poll
<dholbach> coolbhavi, did you send it to the motu list as well?
<coolbhavi> on the proposed number and the sessions... Will post it to the list today got stuck
<coolbhavi> with other work
<coolbhavi> sorry for that
<dholbach> coolbhavi, don't worry - if you send it to the list we should be fine :)
<coolbhavi> sure dholbach
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> coolbhavi, did you have a chat with bobweaver or did he get in touch with you?
<dholbach> he wanted to give a session already
<statik> o/ sorry i'm late
<dholbach> hey statik
<dholbach> coolbhavi, also it might be worth writing up some kind of quick announcement text we can reuse for these sessions - I can help with getting it on the fridge or the ubuntu classroom blog
<coolbhavi> dholbach, no but a member called joseph got in touch with me sure ll do that
<dholbach> ah yes
<dholbach> perfect
<dholbach> if anyone has any suggestions or would like to volunteer for a motu school session, please get in touch with coolbhavi
<coolbhavi> ll mail bob today btw
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> alright, let's move on to the next point :)
<dholbach> #topic Review MOTU/FAQ/New_Draft (Bhavani Shankar)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review MOTU/FAQ/New_Draft (Bhavani Shankar)
<dholbach> coolbhavi is definitely dominating the agenda today :)
<dholbach> coolbhavi, did anyone get in touch with you about the draft?
<coolbhavi> dholbach, :-) unfortunately on list I got no response
<coolbhavi> so I wanted to mail again this weekend
<dholbach> perfect
<dholbach> I think if we can mix and match old and new content it should be fine
<dholbach> there are surely some parts which can be borrowed from the old page :)
<coolbhavi> dholbach, yes a bit of editing would do good most of old page still has valuable content
<dholbach> perfect
<dholbach> alright
<dholbach> it seems like the rest of the agenda is only 'fixed' agenda items - does anyone have anything else they wanted to bring up?
<vibhav> umm
<vibhav> About the MOTU school
<dholbach> hi vibhav
<coolbhavi> vibhav, hey
<vibhav> I think it might be better if the MOTU who is taking the school seesion conducts a poll on which topic should be covered
<vibhav> hi dholbach
<Laney> \o
<dholbach> vibhav, we have in the past conducted a couple of these polls
<vibhav> dholbach: How were the results?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Requests might be useful content to review
<vibhav> I mean ah, didn't know that
<dholbach> no worries - these wiki page are not exactly easy to find :)
<vibhav> That is the point
<vibhav> We should make the wiki pages more easy to find
<dholbach> but yeah, it's not exactly front-facing content :)
<dholbach> but it might help making decision which sessions to give
<vibhav> yup
<vibhav> Social Networks, at this point, might be usefull
<dholbach> vibhav, but if you want, you could maybe write an email or microblog about it and solicit some feedback on packaging training sessions
<vibhav> sure
<dholbach> that'd be awesome
<coolbhavi> dholbach, two days back  in d-a-t meeting we discussed about g+ hangouts
<coolbhavi> :)
<vibhav> Ill ask jono about integrating some MOTU stuff in Ubuntu Acomplishments
<vibhav> Encouraging new Developers
<dholbach> ah yes, that's nice ideas
<dholbach> so with some additional mailing list posts and some microblogging I hope we can get some more ideas, so we can probably just leave the item on the agenda page for next time
<dholbach> Laney, you had something to discuss as well?
<Laney> I just thought I would mention that Kubuntu is going to Universe imminently
<Laney> and they have some particular conventions that they would like people to follow
<Laney> mainly pushing to some special branches
<Laney> should we let people know?
<vibhav> yup
<coolbhavi> dholbach, do u think d-a-t might help in providing pointers in here as in encouraging new developers?
<dholbach> Laney, do you know if that's documented or mentioned somewhere?
<Laney> perhaps Riddell or ScottK know more
<ScottK> Kubuntu is going to Universe.
<vibhav> Though it might be bit offtopic, but I think that a
<vibhav> MOTU mascot is needed
<ScottK> People just need to pay attention to the VCS info in the packages.
<coolbhavi> vibhav, mascot as in?
<vibhav> (But that would make it a bit childish, so never mind :) )
<Riddell> Laney: the vcs lines are in debian/control
<dholbach> coolbhavi, vibhav: can we talk about this in a bit?
<vibhav> sure
<dholbach> let's talk about Kubuntu first
<dholbach> thanks
<Riddell> another kubuntu convention is not to make upstream changes unless there's a clear route to it getting upstream
<Laney> there are a lot of Vcs lines in debian/control that Ubuntu developers ignore
<vibhav> yes
<dholbach> Riddell, have you considered bringing this up on a mailing list or blog post somewhere?
<dholbach> u-d-a might be even a good place for this
<Riddell> dholbach: not thought about it no
 * ScottK would have thought it was reasonably obvious.
 * ScottK doesn't touch Xubuntu stuff without talking to Xuubntu people first.
<vibhav> Ive observed some ubuntu-deltas with the vcs links still of debain instead of the bazaar vcs links
<dholbach> I think it's important enough - and would provide everybody with an update of what's going on in Kubuntu
<vibhav> I agree with dholbach
<vibhav> Explaining what universe actaully is might be the first step towards this
<dholbach> are any other big changes with regard to Kubuntu en route?
<Riddell> dholbach: not currently, the business side is waiting on canonical to sort out the trademark agreement
 * dholbach nods
<Riddell> otherwise it's business as usual
<dholbach> but the universe move is already happening?
<ScottK> Yes.
<Riddell> dholbach: I believe cjwatson is on the case as we type
<ScottK> Imminent.
<dholbach> ok, cool
<ScottK> It depends on if his coffee is large enoug.
<dholbach> I hope this will play out posivitely for Kubuntu.
<vibhav> We will also need to assure people that Kubuntu has not been discontinued
<vibhav> or is dead
<cjwatson> I think I may need a second coffee for it.
<micahg> I don't think anyone has that opinion
<dholbach> Ok, if that's all in terms of Kubuntu, I guess we can move on. Thanks a lot for the update in any case.
<Laney> I think it's interesting for MOTU, and that there are also things that people need to be aware of.
<Laney> That's all I wanted to raise.
<Riddell> dholbach: if you see any powerful canonical people do get them to nudge steve george into doing the agreement
<dholbach> Yes, thanks for that - I knew that the change was about to happen, but didn't know when.
<cjwatson> I've checked that the CD images seem to be building with universe now, and I've checked all the archive scripts I can think of to make sure they won't explode
<cjwatson> Then component-mismatches looks like it'll do this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1041070/
<vibhav> Does this mean, one can no longer install commercial apps in Kubuntu?
<cjwatson> So I need to sit and think about how sane all that is
<cjwatson> vibhav: Totally unrelated
<vibhav> excuse me, I got a bit confused
<Laney> let's keep it related to MOTU.
<vibhav> yeah sure
<vibhav> sorry :(
<dholbach> ok, in that case - let's move on
<dholbach> vibhav, you wanted to bring up the idea of a mascot - as I know this has been talked about in the past a couple of times, I would suggest you flesh out a concrete idea and submit it to the mailing list first - because we spent a lot of IRC hours on the topic already :)
<AnAnt_> Hello
<vibhav> yup
<dholbach> hi AnAnt_
<AnAnt_> sory for being late
<dholbach> AnAnt_, no worries - maybe somebody can give you the logs of what we talked about up until now
<dholbach> Looking at the agenda, I don't have much from the Developer Advisory Team to report, but the next agenda item might be good to talk about
<AnAnt_> ok
<dholbach> #topic https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative
<dholbach> Andrew Starr-Bochicchio and I had a stab at updating it for the bug fixing initiative for the next two weeks
<dholbach> so I'd appreciate if you could take a look at it and say what you think about it
<dholbach> or if you have suggestions for new small tasks we could offer to new contributors
<vibhav> hmm...let me see
<dholbach> I was quite happy with the typo-in-package-description-in-ubuntu-packages one, as some came up with fixes very quickly and for some it was their first interaction with the ubuntu development process and the ones I talked to enjoyed it
<dholbach> I plan to announce the initiative on monday and also blog about the contributors from the fixes which already went in
<vibhav> "Correcting VCS links for Ubuntu Deltas"
<ScottK> Is that really worth the trouble?
<vibhav> nope, but still baby steps for new contributors
 * coolbhavi just mailed doodle poll on MOTU school to the list
<ScottK> Part of motivating new people is that their contributions feel useful.
<ScottK> Don't make the stuff too obviously make work.
 * vibhav slaps forhead
<dholbach> ScottK, is there anything you'd suggest?
<dholbach> or any feedback on the page? :)
 * ScottK looks
<vibhav> The page looks perfect to me
<vibhav> It includes all the ways I started with MOTU contribution
<ScottK> Missing man pages?
<dholbach> ah yes, that might work
<dholbach> we'd need to point to some good documentation
<Laney> http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org/quantal/tags.html
<Laney> there must be some stuff in there
<dholbach> and how to get them included in the top-most upstream project :)
<micahg> vibhav: in most cases, the Vcs links don't need correcting, it's either lp:ubuntu/foo or specified, and certainly isn't worth an upload to add XS-Debian-*
<dholbach> maybe we could check if there's "home-grown" packages where we could add man pages and add these as a task for new contributors
<AnAnt_> ah, tags !
<dholbach> and for more experienced contributors add the step of forwarding the manpages to an upstream project?
<AnAnt_> I mean adding deb tags
<AnAnt_> I mean adding deb tags to packages
<ScottK> http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org/quantal/tags/debhelper-but-no-misc-depends.html for packages that have an Ubuntu diff might be good.
<ScottK> They can submit the diff to Debian too for those that are in Debian.
<AnAnt_> adding deb tags is maybe not packaging work, but it is a good contribution I think
<vibhav> fixing lintian errors is one of the best ways to get started with MOTU imho
<Laney> http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org/quantal/tags/brace-expansion-in-debhelper-config-file.html
<AnAnt_> debtags.alioth.debian.org/
<dholbach> ScottK, Laney: both good ideas - would you mind adding them to the page? I then could try to find a way to easily filter out packages which are only in Ubuntu, so we could separate the two groups of packages
<dholbach> AnAnt_, are there good instructions for debtags at the page or is there a list for tags which are currently requested or wanted?
<ScottK> dholbach: I'm multitasking about three ways right now, so no.
<dholbach> ScottK, I know the feeling
<AnAnt_> dholbach: yes, it can be done on the website itself, one selects from a list of existing tabs for each package
<dholbach> AnAnt_, I think it's a nice idea - could you imagine adding a couple of sentences to the wiki page about the effort?
<AnAnt_> dholbach: this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings ?
<dholbach> ah no, sorry
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative
<AnAnt_> ok
<AnAnt_> hmmm, it isn't really related to BugFixing
<dholbach> great - this should give us heaps of tasks for new contributors in the next two weeks :)
<Laney> I added something
<dholbach> thanks a lot Laney
<dholbach> ScottK, I noted down your idea, so I'll see if I can do about it tomorrow
<Laney> it might not be very new-contributor friendly, so somebody should proof read
<dholbach> I have another meeting after this one and then need to head out
<dholbach> Laney, if it's too hard, we could just move it to the "intermediate" section or however we want to call it :)
<Laney> ok
<Laney> I meant my wording :P
<dholbach> AnAnt_, it might still be a nice introduction - even if it's a tiny little bit unrelated - it's still worthwhile :)
<Laney> but I see your point also
<dholbach> haha ok
<dholbach> I'll take a look at it tomorrow
<AnAnt_> ok
<dholbach> ok, we have 5 minutes left - is there anything else we should talk about?
<dholbach> I don't mind doing the minutes, but I'll do them tomorrow, and for the next meeting and meeting chair we'll wait on the results of the discussion on the mailing list
<dholbach> If there's nothing more, I'd like to thank all of you for coming - keep up the good work! :-)
<AnAnt_> thanks
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 14 16:57:09 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-14-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-14-16.02.html
<vibhav> good night!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-15
 * skaet_ waves
<arosales> hello
<jibel> hi
 * stgraber waves
<brendand> hi
<Daviey> hola!
<skaet_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jun 15 15:00:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Laney> SHIP IT
<skaet_> lo
<skaet_> lol even.
<skaet_> Upcoming dates:
<skaet_> 2012/06/25 - Alpha 2 candidate images
<skaet_> 2012/06/28 - Alpha 2
<skaet_> 2012/07/05 - DebianImportFreeze
<skaet_> Work Items:
<skaet_> 2012/06/15 - 2627 : trending above burndown line.
<skaet_> Weekly Status:
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001354.html - brendand
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001359.html - ScottL
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001360.html - joshuahoover
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001361.html - gilir
<skaet_> ** 2100 UTC - due time
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001362.html - ogasawara
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001363.html - stgraber
<skaet_> ** 2300 UTC - late but could still prep from.
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001364.html - jdstrand
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001365.html - fabo
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001366.html - astrajava
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001367.html - seb128
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001368.html - Riddell
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001369.html - ogra_
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001370.html - jibel
<skaet_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001375.html - arosales
<skaet_> Thank you to those teams who got the status in before 2100 UTC.  :)    It helps keep the meeting short, as more discussion can happen on email.
<skaet_> #topic Questions and Comments
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Questions and Comments
<skaet_> Workitems are currently at 2627,  at FPF was 2282, so we had some teams that missed the freeze.  We're also starting to trend above burndown line - teams,  please review and update as needed.
<skaet_> Any teams want to request their workitem burndown trend lines reset?   otherwise will go with what was set on on FPF.
<jibel> QA
<skaet_> jibel,  will do.
<Riddell> what is FPF?
<skaet_> Feature Planning Freeze
<Daviey> skaet_: I suspect we'll want us adjusted next week.
<skaet_> Daviey,  will synch with you early next week then.
<ogasawara> skaet, I wouldn't mind seeing ours reset as well
<arosales> +1 Daviey on reset
<skaet_> ogasawara, arosales,  noted.
<skaet_> :)
<arosales> thanks skaet_
<seb128> skaet_, can you reset the desktop one as well?
<skaet_> seb128,  ok,  you're on the list for a reset too.
<seb128> thanks
<Daviey> skaet_: Hmm, maybe reset them all? :)
<skaet_> Daviey,  nah,  only those who are paying attention ;)
<stgraber> skaet_: looks like edubuntu would need a reset as well (was it actually reset after FPF, the graph suggests otherwise?)
<jdstrand> security's is fine
<seb128> jdstrand, you are not a team player! :p
<skaet_> stgraber,  ok,  edubuntu's on the list now as well.
<jdstrand> I'm trying, I promise! :)
 * skaet_ hugs jdstrand
<skaet_> any one else who notices,  please chime in before meeting ends.
<skaet_> I'll head on to other questions now
<skaet_> ..
 * skaet_ reminds folks to o/ if they want to get on the question queue
<skaet_> seb128 - mail list is inconclusive as to how we'll be handling the c++98 and c++0x/c++11 incompatibility.   what's the recommendation?
<skaet_> is there a plan to get this closed?  or do we need to have a meeting?
<seb128> skaet_, that would be a question for foundation,doko, that's a gcc,toolchain issue, I don't have good answers
<skaet_> ogra_, ^ cjwatson ^ ??
<cjwatson> I'm not up to date on this, sorry.  It's not a shallow issue.
<seb128> skaet_, Didier has been trying to discuss it with some other gcc upstream people and they acknowledge some issues that they might fix in 4.7.2 ... but they don't have any fixed schedule for that and it's not really sorted out
<cjwatson> I'm not entirely sure how a meeting would help, though ...
<skaet_> seb128,  is there evidence its impacting more than unity?  (ie.  dependency on c++11 features?)
<seb128> skaet_, yes
<seb128> skaet_, other softwares using c++11 features have been mentioned in that discussion
<skaet_> seb128,  ok,  will fine tooth that thread a little closer then.    didn't have as much time on it as would be good this morning.
<skaet_> cjwatson,  if right folk are talking, and there's no cross team discussions about workarounds needed, then meeting may not be appropriate.   Just couldn't tell from thread.
<seb128> skaet_, the utouch stack was listed as well as potentially problematic on that thread and I think somebody mentioned something else but I don't find it now
<cjwatson> What I mean is that the level of thought required is unlikely to be assisted by a meeting.
<Daviey> I am also not as close to this issue as i'd like.. but is this something that would manifest itself when packages are rebuilt ?
<skaet_> ok,  Will move this back to the thread for now then.
<ogra_> sorry, i'm late
<seb128> Daviey, yes, it's not happening until you rebuild with gcc-4.7
<Daviey> Ie, is it that our toolchain has changed this cycle, and might negatively affect packages which havne't been built this cycle.. particularly risky with SRU's
 * skaet_ nods
<seb128> Daviey, the issue is specific to q so it shouldn't impact SRUs
<Daviey> seb128: i mean Q SRU's.
<Daviey> ie, we don't catch it pre-release.
<seb128> right
 * skaet_ wondering if a transition plan is going to be needed then...
<Daviey> perhaps no-change rebuilds soon might help flush this out?
<Daviey> is doko present ?
<skaet_> worth discussing with doko,  definitely.    He doesn't seem to be around right now.
 * ogra_ will carry it forward to him if he isnt 
<Daviey> super
<seb128> Daviey, upstream is discussing bumping the soname today: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2012-06/msg00223.html
<ubottu> gcc.gnu.org bug 2012 in c "ICE when compiling the current cvs gcc as cross-compiler to mingw32" [Critical,Resolved: duplicate]
<seb128> Daviey, so I guess we need to see what that goes
<seb128> what->where
<Daviey> sounds good.
<skaet_> I think we've got some actions on this topic now,  so moving on.
<skaet_> ..
<doko> see http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2012-06/msg00201.html
<ubottu> gcc.gnu.org bug 2012 in c "ICE when compiling the current cvs gcc as cross-compiler to mingw32" [Critical,Resolved: duplicate]
<doko> soname bump won't happen
<skaet_> doko,  thanks for joining.
<doko> it's a major pita ...
<skaet_> doko,  does it make sense to prioritize doing a no-change rebuild, so we can get the scope of this figured out?
<doko> skaet_, what for?
<skaet_> how much upstream c++11 use there is...
<skaet_> scope of problem
<Daviey> doko: Sorry, that was my suggestion.. And i admit i don't fully grok the issue at hand.  But i wondered if building this not yet built against 4.7 will help identify problematic packages
<doko> right, it would be nice if somebody could analyze the build logs for c++11/c++0x usage
<Daviey> doko: is there an easy metric in buildlogs?
<doko> Daviey, it's only in c++11 mode,
<Daviey> doko: You are far more experienced in this than anyone.. So really.. What do you suggest as a path forward?
<doko> you should search for -std={c,gnu}++{0x,11}
<doko> Daviey, well, first find out which packages are involved. that would be searching the build logs
<Daviey> I have a script that pulls down build logs for a given package.. If that is of use, i'll certainly help.
<doko> then, if library packages do export symbols from the stl, and especiall std::list symbols
<doko> but skaet_, Daviey: the real issue is here mixing c++98/c++11 code, which we should avoid anyway
<doko> the recent change for c++11 mode broke things evidently, but there were more issues in earlier gcc versions
<doko> but I don't want to delay the meeting now
<skaet_> yup.  ABI changes happen when standards change, so shouldn't be mixed.   Challenge is managing the transition, and libraries.
<skaet_> ok lets take this to the other channels.
<skaet_> ..
<doko> and we don't want a second stack of c++ libs ...
<skaet_> seb128, From A1 discussions, Ubuntu DVD isn't going to be part of manifest,  any objections to turning it off in the dailies, and removing from the iso tracker.
<skaet_> ?
<seb128> skaet_, +1
<seb128> i.e: do it, no objection
<skaet_> :)
<skaet_> #action remove Ubuntu DVD from daily images and ISO tracker for quantal.
<meetingology> ACTION: remove Ubuntu DVD from daily images and ISO tracker for quantal.
<skaet_> thanks seb128
<seb128> yw ;-)
<skaet_> seb128,   is it known which images we'll be putting out for 12.04.1?
<Riddell> skaet_: Kubuntu dvd can go too
<skaet_> (ie, sometimes we do DVD and sometimes not,  just wondering about it for that manifest as well).
<skaet_> thanks Riddell,  was going to ask you next.  :)
<skaet_> Riddell,  just to be clear,  no Kubuntu DVD for 12.10?
<Riddell> skaet_: right
<skaet_> #ACTION: remove Kubuntu DVD from daily images and ISO tracker for quantal.
<meetingology> ACTION: : remove Kubuntu DVD from daily images and ISO tracker for quantal.
<seb128> skaet_, good question, I'm not sure, I assuming we would ship the same set as for 12.04 for 12.04.1 but I need to check
<seb128> assuming->assumed
<seb128> skaet_, I will not get a reply for you before the end of the meeting but it's on my list, I will get back to you about that ;-)
<skaet_> seb128,  ok,  will you take an action to summarize on ubuntu-release what you want for 12.04.1 for next week?  :)
<seb128> #ACTION: summarize on ubuntu-release what desktop want for 12.04.1
<meetingology> ACTION: : summarize on ubuntu-release what desktop want for 12.04.1
<skaet_> Riddell,  will you follow up with the images you want for Kubuntu for 12.04.1 as well?
<seb128> skaet_, ^
<skaet_> thanks seb128  :)
<seb128> yw ;-)
<Riddell> skaet_: ok
<skaet_> ..
<Daviey> o/
<skaet_> go Daviey
<Daviey> seb128: Are you currently working on bug 1008537 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008537 in webkit (Ubuntu) "[FTBFS] Segmentation fault during tests" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1008537
<Daviey> (it's impacting us aswell)
<seb128> Daviey, no, it's the first time I read about it, looking
<seb128> Daviey, is that a precise or quantal or both issue?
<Daviey> seb128: quantal... michag mentioned that it was hitting firefox builds?
<seb128> Daviey, that seems a xvfb issue, I know that others mentioned that as well before
<Daviey> yeah
<seb128> Daviey, I will check out with some people, but probably an out of meeting topic
<Daviey> seb128: sure, thanks.
<Daviey> ...
<seb128> thank you for pointing it
<seb128> ..
<skaet_> superm1, Anyone looking into the Mythbuntu failures?  does it make sense to keep it in the dailies?
<skaet_> hmm... superm1 isn't around, so anyone else know about plans with this image set?
<Daviey> skaet_: II'm on that team, but not been able to commit any time this week.  I will either make time, or coordinate a plan
<skaet_> Thanks Daviey.
<skaet_> ..
<skaet_> anyone else have questions?
<skaet_> Thanks seb128, arosales, Daviey, cjwatson, ogra_, doko, ogasawara, jibel, stgraber, jdstrand, roadmr, brendand, Laney
<skaet_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jun 15 15:41:30 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-15-15.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-15-15.00.html
<stgraber> thanks!
<ogra_> wow, that was a short one
<arosales> thanks for chairing skaet_ :-)
<ogasawara> thanks skaet_
<ogra_> thanks !
<jibel> skaet_, thanks
<Daviey> thanks skaet_
 * balloons just arrives
<Daviey> short meetings means we can release soon, right?
<skaet_> thanks again for getting the statuses in.  I'll follow up with questions on the mail list for the rest.  :)
<cjwatson> skaet_: Mythbuntu is blocked on bug 1001740, which is blocked on some bugs listed therein.  I think we should keep it in the dailies, though, otherwise the hump to get over for the next LTS will be too high.  We don't have to worry overly about failures.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1001740 in xfce4-utils (Ubuntu) "[quantal] Please remove xfce4-utils from the archive" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1001740
<cjwatson> (At least one of those bugs is for mythbuntu-something, which is probably the true blocker here, actually.)
<skaet_> cjwatson,  if you recommend,  ok.   Just was worrying about it being broken and making sure it wasn't orphaned.
<cjwatson> Bug 1002248
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1002248 in mythbuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "[quantal] xfce4-utils is deprecated in 4.10" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1002248
<skaet_> yeah,  probably we should take this to #ubuntu-release
<seb128> skaet_, thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-10
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 10 16:33:03 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) provided debdiffs for lucid-precise for xml-light (LP: #1186860). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1186860 in xml-light (Ubuntu Precise) "Hash collision vulnerability in xml-light" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1186860
<chrisccoulson> hi!
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> apparently I am in the happy place this week, which I am grateful for :)
<mdeslaur> :)
<jdstrand> I'm catching up from being off last week
<jdstrand> I've got patch piloting to do
<jdstrand> an embargoed update
<jdstrand> various reviews and coordination surrounding application isolation, scopes and click packages
<jdstrand> and I plan to do a preliminary install audit of the phablet image
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I have an openchrome update I'll be releasing this afternoon
<mdeslaur> and after that, I've got a bunch of stuff ready for testing in the secppa
<mdeslaur> I'm also on triage duty this week
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it...updates as usual :)
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm again on apparmor this week
<sbeattie> I'm currently working on the apparmor/sdk work in the https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-s-appisolation-sdk
<jdstrand> sbeattie: how is that going?
<sbeattie> I've uploaded some of the easyprof policy group stuff to the dbus-dev ppa, along with versions of the calculator and calendar app that make use of them
<jdstrand> ah, cool
<mdeslaur> oh, cool
 * jdstrand makes note to play with that this week
<sbeattie> I'm still working on getting json input to easyprof going and am continuing to look at what the click package emits
<sbeattie> I think there's an apparmor upstream meeting this week that I need to prep for
<sbeattie> oh, I should note that after this week, I'm off for two weeks
<sbeattie> That's it for me.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: wrt click> maybe ask beuno/cjwatson?
<sbeattie> jdstrand: sure, I've been playing around with the source a bit
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<jdstrand> sbeattie: also, for clarity (since I've been off a week and still catching up), you're still going to work with debhelper correct?
<tyhicks> I'm (finally) finishing my email to the apparmor list to compare the various dbus syntax proposals
<sbeattie> jdstrand: yes. I didn't do that in the bits I uploaded.
<tyhicks> I got sidetracked last week while chasing down some odd things I came across while preparing a profile for that email
<jdstrand> sbeattie: ok, thanks. I think that shouldn't be too bad. we (you, me, mdeslaur) can talk more if anything is unclear
<jdstrand> tyhicks: please continue (sorry to interrupt)
<mdeslaur> oh! forgot to mention I also plan on installing ubuntu on my nexus 4 this week
<tyhicks> later today, I'll start prepping for my work items in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1305-content-mgmt-picking
<tyhicks> I'll begin work on that blueprint this week
<tyhicks> and will continue working on the parser changes in the background
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: fyi, tvoss mentioned possibly having a command line first draft of that api this week
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: ok, that would be good
<jdstrand> tyhicks: also note, that the meeting is early tomorrow
<jdstrand> tyhicks: did anything happen with rescheduling that
<mdeslaur> I guess we'll find out more at tomorrow's meeting
<tyhicks> jdstrand: no, I'm going to give it a shot for a week or two
<tyhicks> if it kills me, I'll push for a reschedule
<tyhicks> I think I'll be fine
<jdstrand> tyhicks: sorry about that, but I appreciate it
<tyhicks> no problem
<jdstrand> I think jjohansen is afk atm
<tyhicks> oh, yes
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: please don't die
<jdstrand> sarnold: you're up
<tyhicks> :)
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; I'll also be reviewing some patches I expect from jjohansen soon. I'd like jdstrand or mdeslaur's help in pushing the openssl zlib environment variable to a -proposed for wider testing before pushing to the archive
<mdeslaur> sarnold: ah! yes, cool
<mdeslaur> sarnold: can I try and push what's in the ppa now?
<sarnold> my bouncycastle test suite is starting to feel like there's something to it :) I've got symmetric ciphers and their modes of operations working; I can see adding assymetric ciphers and then finally some high level TLS servers/clients
<jdstrand> sarnold: just put it in the ubuntu-security-proposed ppa and ping me to push it to -proposed when ready
<sarnold> mdeslaur: yes
<sarnold> jdstrand: it's already in the security ppa; would it need to be rebuilt in ubuntu-security-proposed before it could be pushed?
<mdeslaur> sarnold: nope
<jdstrand> sarnold: no, I can do it from there too
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: let me try first
<sarnold> ah, cool :)
 * jdstrand defers to mdeslaur 
<sarnold> okay, I think that's me, chrisccoulson, you're up :)
<chrisccoulson> thanks sarnold
<chrisccoulson> so, last week, i pretty much finished off fleshing out the architecture for our chromium embedding api (tentatively named "oxide", thanks to mdeslaur) ;)
<chrisccoulson> i have a pretty good idea of how much work is involved now
<jdstrand> tyhicks: (fyi, please feel free to poke me if I don't respond to your apparmor policy email-- I'd like to get those discussions moving and completed)
<tyhicks> jdstrand: ack - same here
<chrisccoulson> and i've actually created a project branch locally to start some hacking on it :)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: nice!
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: oh, cool...looking forward to discussion that with you
<chrisccoulson> this week, i've got an embargoed update to do
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me (other than that update, i'll be continuing work on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1303-webkit-maintenance/)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/boinc.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/iscsitarget.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-openid.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/charybdis.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bcron.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 10 16:57:21 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-10-16.33.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-10-16.33.html
<tyhicks> thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<kees> \o
<cjwatson> hi
<kees> looks like a short meeting
<kees> mdz, soren, stgraber: ready for (quick) tb meeting?
<kees> pitti has sent his apologies on the list
<soren> o/
<kees> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 10 20:01:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is kees. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<kees> [topic] Action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Action review
<kees> Martin to mail SRU team members about inordinate SRU waiting times in proposed queue
<kees> did this happen?
<cjwatson> There's been a fairly decent thread, and I understand Brian's new sru-review tool is starting to gain traction
<kees> yeah, the thread has been moving along. it wasn't clear to me if this action is considered "done". I guess so, since the thread is started.
<kees> so, moving on:
<kees> Jorge to check whether brainstorm.ubuntu.com could be kept as a read-only archive, and otherwise shut it down.
<cjwatson> There's been internal RT traffic about this
<kees> okay, cool.
<cjwatson> RT#61484 for those with access
 * stgraber waves
<kees> [topic] Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<cjwatson> IS have said they'll do the dump, although need to check it for personally-identifying information
<kees> all I see on the ML is the SRU thread, so nothing extra in there.
<kees> [topic] Check up on community bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Check up on community bugs
<kees> 0 boogs found
<kees> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<kees> anything not in bugs or ML or wiki we need to take care of?
<jcastro> kees: any questions for me wrt brainstorm?
<kees> jcastro: I was just checking on the status of the brainstorm request, cjwatson found the RT. we're all good. :) thanks!
<stgraber> kees: so we had a discussion a couple meetings back about the openssl exceptions for squid and mongodb but deferred as we felt cjwatson really should be present for that discussion
<kees> stgraber: ah yes!
<cjwatson> The mongodb discussion appears to be moot since upstream are (AIUI) adding the exception
<kees> excellent.
<kees> seems like the same should be possible for squid too, I would hope.
<soren> Nope.
<cjwatson> squid have had problems tracking down copyright holders I think
<soren> Many, many contributors and copyright holders.
<stgraber> squid doesn't use copyright assignment, so getting all copyright holders to agree is a bit trickier
<ScottK> And we should have a clear policy on this in any case since it comes up routinely.
<soren> It's amazingly difficult to get them all to agree to such an exception (even though they probably pretty much all would, it's nearly impossible to track them down and get their sign off).
<kees> "please send patches to remove your code if you don't agree". :P but yeah, I know I'm a crazy person.
<cjwatson> So, I stand by my plain reading of the licences.  I would be happy to defer to the opinion of the licensors, but if they can't all be found then that's hard to achieve.
<ScottK> It seems to me that given the history of the system library exception, it's pretty clear what the intent is in the GPL text.
<kees> so do we have a specific thing about this that we need to discuss at this time?
<kees> that sounds like "no", so I guess we're done here. :)
<cjwatson> (I do recognise that this position is inconvenient, but I can't in good conscience sign off on a reading that looks like a violation based on the plain reading.)
<cjwatson> Or something better phrased.
<kees> cjwatson: so you don't agree that the system library exception matches these cases?
<cjwatson> I do not.
<cjwatson> I believe I laid out my position in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-May/001603.html
<cjwatson> (I certainly believe that the licensors are entitled to jointly select a different reading)
<kees> okay. but I don't think the TB needs to make a unified decision on this at this point.
<ScottK> As an archive admin, leaving it ambiguous is bothersome.
<cjwatson> Do we have archive admins who disagree?
<ScottK> I thought we had a clear policy along the lines of what cjwatson suggests and I'd like to not leave it at DUNNO.
<cjwatson> Oh, Dave is an archive admin, isn't he
<ScottK> Yes.
<stgraber> I certainly agree with cjwatson on this and would be happy to make it policy if that makes things simpler for everyone (and we have consensus on this, at least for the TB if not TB+archive-admin)
<kees> ScottK: since several TB folks are missing currently, can you take this to the mailing list and rephrase it from the perspective of needing an official stance for archive-admin purposes?
<cjwatson> If people disagree, I would appreciate it if they actually went to the trouble to refute my analysis ...
<ScottK> kees: I can do that.
<kees> cjwatson: I'll see if I can refute it. you make it hard, though. :)
<kees> okay, so anything else? otherwise, I think it's to mdz next meeting to chair (nick-alpha order)?
<soren> I have nothing else.
<kees> okay, thanks!
<kees> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 10 20:20:45 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-10-20.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-10-20.01.html
<ScottK> kees: My action is complete (sent the mail)
<bkerensa> hmm hmm hmm
<bkerensa> Who is here for the Ubuntu Documentation Team Meeting?
<pleia2> o/
<dsmythies> Doug Smythies is here for doc meeting.
 * godbyk is here for the ubuntu-docs meeting
<bkerensa> GunnarHj and kotux too? :)
<bkerensa> #startmeeting Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 10 22:00:03 2013 UTC.  The chair is bkerensa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Current topic:
<bkerensa> #chair bkerensa
<meetingology> Current chairs: bkerensa
<bkerensa> Hello everyone and welcome to the Ubuntu Doc Team Meeting for June 2013 :)
<GunnarHj> I'm here.
<bkerensa> Our agenda is in the topic if you have not had a chance to read it yet
<kotux> hey bkerensa
<bkerensa> #topic UDS Work Items Health Check
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Current topic: UDS Work Items Health Check
<bkerensa> So the first thing on our agenda is to check on the progress of UDS 13.05 work items
<bkerensa> I'm seeing right now we have only one done https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1305-doc-planning
<bkerensa> any updates from those who have taken items?
<pleia2> I sent the previous feedback emails to the list a couple weeks ago, hopefully that was helpful
<bkerensa> My "Review and update current documented processes" work item is nearly finished and I'm about half way done on a rough draft of "Update Getting Started Page"
<bkerensa> pleia2: excellent
<godbyk> My item is dependent upon bkerensa's items.
<bkerensa> :)
<dsmythies> this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/BuildingDocumentation is reasobaly up to dete
<bkerensa> So it looks like I need to bang out my work by the end of the weekend
<bkerensa> :)
<bkerensa> In regards to the getting started revamp
<GunnarHj> Is everything "getting started related" included in the first item?
<bkerensa> do you think its important that we write out entire tutorials on DocBook or try and rely on a third party source for that?
<godbyk> bkerensa: I'd rely on a third party for the bulk of it, but if you're restricting the docs team to a subset of docbook, I'd note what that subset is.
<bkerensa> GunnarHj: not really I think that covers some but does not give a A to Z of everything people will need to know to get started and feel somewhat comfortable with the process
<godbyk> Templates, tips, etc. wouldn't be amiss either.
<dsmythies> No, 90% of what I have learned is from example of stuff already done. Use 3rd party for anything else.
<bkerensa> kk
<GunnarHj> I for one think it's not important to go too deep into DocBook or Mallard. To modify pages you can start with just looking at what the page looks like.
<bkerensa> I was planning on deferring for example to developer.ubuntu.com for bzr configuration versus re-writing
<bkerensa> GunnarHj: +1
<bkerensa> I just think a simple one page getting started with links to relevant tidbits is the best
<bkerensa> I also think once we get this going we should offer mentoring
<godbyk> Sort of..
<kotux> same here, it should be in order too.
<godbyk> You don't want a getting started page that just links everywhere, though.
<dsmythies> Yes, suggest you use the serverguide single page as an example.
<godbyk> Because as a new contributor, I don't want to read reference manuals for bzr, launchpad, docbook, mallard, etc.
<kotux> godbyk, I'm in a similar situation actually
<bkerensa> Ok so since this is our next item
<godbyk> I want some step-by-step guides to get up and running quickly so I can fix the bug or make the improvement that I'm interested in making.
<bkerensa> #topic  Discuss Collaboration on Final Draft Ubuntu Documentation Getting Started Wiki
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Current topic: Discuss Collaboration on Final Draft Ubuntu Documentation Getting Started Wiki
<bkerensa> Why don't we have a etherpad up
<bkerensa> and I will drop my rough draft in this weekend
<bkerensa> and then we can polish it off as a team
<bkerensa> to the point we are all satisfied?
<godbyk> Sure.
<dsmythies> O.K.
<kotux> no prob
<bkerensa> #action bkerensa to push his rough draft to etherpad this weekend for final team polish effort
<meetingology> ACTION: bkerensa to push his rough draft to etherpad this weekend for final team polish effort
<bkerensa> So I also want to have a hard deadline on which we can have it polished and on the wiki
<bkerensa> can we say deadline being the 30th?
<GunnarHj> Sounds as a good idea. And I like the idea by godbyk with something that can make people get started quickly.
<kotux> GunnarHj, so do I.  All those readings are secondary to getting things done.
<GunnarHj> Feel like you are switching topic a little too fast. ;-)
<dsmythies> Please refer to the serverguide single page. It allows one to start in minutes. It is really good.
<kotux> bkerensa, it's a good date. Between 2 weeks to a month is ample time.
<bkerensa> dsmythies: will do
<bkerensa> dsmythies: and your input will be appreciated along the way
<dsmythies> O.K.
<kotux> dsmythies, the single page is not easy to find through navigation alone. But it's really handy.
<bkerensa> any more concerns regarding getting started content?
<GunnarHj> Nope. An etherpad with what you got sounds fine.
<dsmythies> just for reference for the minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: tnx
<kotux> It needs a place somewhere in the wiki SOON.
<dsmythies> Yes it does.
<bkerensa> ok ready to move to the next item?
<kotux> ok
<godbyk> yep
<dsmythies> yes
<bkerensa> #topic Ubuntu 13.10 Doc TODO List: What do we want to accomplish in regards to the actual docs we ship
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Current topic: Ubuntu 13.10 Doc TODO List: What do we want to accomplish in regards to the actual docs we ship
<bkerensa> ok
<bkerensa> So what do we want to and need to accomplish this cycle in regards to documentation we ship?
<bkerensa> What do you consider essential?
<GunnarHj> Starting working on it in good time before the release is the key point, I think.
<godbyk> I think it's important that we have up-to-date documentation.
<kotux> More pictures
<bkerensa> I think one of my biggest concerns is the screenshots
<GunnarHj> Another thing is that the GNOME docs must be imported in good time. It looks like we are moving to 3.8...
<kotux> help.ubuntu.com could be made compatible with mobile.
<godbyk> GunnarHj: Do we have instructions for importing the Gnome docs?
<dsmythies> As you know, I work mostly on serverguide, which doesn't actually ship. However, we are considering to post all languages to help.ubuntu.com, just like desktop docs.
<GunnarHj> I haven't. jbicha did it last time (far too late).
<godbyk> GunnarHj: Okay. We'll have to figure out how to do that, then.
<pleia2> I'm inclined to keep our goals for this cycle as minimal as possible as I expect core members of the team will be spending their time onboarding new people
<GunnarHj> godbyk: right
<godbyk> pleia2: I agree.
<dsmythies> there is already a bug report requesting epub format be available. I am not on board, becuase it is another thing to check that it compiles O.K.
<kotux> dsmythies, ok.  It is a good idea.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Is it really a good idea to mess with yet another XML format?
<dsmythies> Currently there issues for some langauges. I hope to spend time on the issues.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I'm not against it per se, but I don't think it should be a high priority at the moment.
<bkerensa> exactly
<dsmythies> Gunnar: It already happens, we just don't post it.
<bkerensa> So
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Can you elaborate on that?
<bkerensa> Do we have someone who can make the screenshot script work?
<bkerensa> godbyk: would you be willing to ping jbicha and find out about Gnome Doc Imports? Since thats like a majority of where our doc comes from
<godbyk> bkerensa: Sure.
<bkerensa> #action godbyk to contact Jeremy Bicha to find out how Gnome-Doc Imports to Ubuntu-Doc works
<meetingology> ACTION: godbyk to contact Jeremy Bicha to find out how Gnome-Doc Imports to Ubuntu-Doc works
<phillw> bkerensa: if you use quickshot, it is being worked upon as we speak.
<dsmythies> The .pot and .po tranlsation cycle already exists for serverguide. We just seem to leave it to the regions to deal with. We have had requests to post the other lanagusges. Desktop already does this
<godbyk> phillw: I suspect it'll be a while before Quickshot is up and running again, though.
<bkerensa> phillw: we have in the past used a script but its broken... It would take vanilla screenshots
<dsmythies> My paln was to post the prelim version of help.ubuntu.com for 13.10 much earlier than I did for 13.04 and provide examples. Without committing the required script changes to the main branch.
<bkerensa> Well lets re-visit the screenshot issue at another time as I plan for us to have more meetings in advance of release
<phillw> godbyk: we'll see how Thomas gets on, I have offered an additional python programmer to assist.
<kotux> I think someone should report on launchpad the non-working script and its current problems.
<godbyk> kotux: I agree. Filing bugs for our own scripts and other to do items sounds like a good idea.
<GunnarHj> How do we identify new Ubuntu specific areas for the docs?
<GunnarHj> (Ubuntu specific = not GNOME)
<kotux> Organization from the start goes a long way. ;)  That's how I felt while I was sifting through the launchpad bugs the past few days; so many of them (pretty old) did not get the attention they deserved.
<bkerensa> Shall we move on to the next item?
<bkerensa> which is bugs
<bkerensa> :)
<GunnarHj> I think the question I just asked is important...
<kotux> can anyone answer GunnarHj?
<dsmythies> earlier Kevin said: "I think it's important that we have up-to-date documentation." I could not agree more. It is becoming difficult to call help.ubuntu.com the "official documentation".
<bkerensa> GunnarHj: Well most of Ubuntu uses Gnome system apps
<dsmythies> ... sorry for my chime in on that one...
<bkerensa> GunnarHj: if you look at the doc files they have authors and such and most of the gnome doc has gnome authors
<bkerensa> where the Ubuntu specific is Jeremy or someone else with an @ubuntu.com e-mail
<GunnarHj> Yes, but Ubuntu is not only GNOME admin tools.
<bkerensa> but there is not a specific tag necessarily that I know of
<GunnarHj> If nobody knows a good answer, maybe there is another task that should be put on the blueprint?
<godbyk> GunnarHj: I'll ask Jeremy about that, too. When we do the import from Gnome, we can probably get the list of files at the same time.
<kotux> I second that.
<bkerensa> #action godbyk to check with jbicha to see about identifying Ubuntu specific doc
<meetingology> ACTION: godbyk to check with jbicha to see about identifying Ubuntu specific doc
<GunnarHj> godbyk: May be a good start.
<bkerensa> Ok we have to move along as other people will need this channel ;)
<bkerensa> #topic Addressing Bug Triage Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Current topic: Addressing Bug Triage Questions
<bkerensa> So godbyk wanted to have Ubuntu Doc Bug Triage up for discussion since kotux has been doing an epic amount of tidying of Ubuntu Doc bugs
<bkerensa> godbyk I will let you start this discussion off
<godbyk> bkerensa: Thanks.
<godbyk> kotux and I have been working on the ubuntu-doc bugs lately.
<godbyk> (Though it's been mostly kotux -- thanks!)
<godbyk> We just wanted to check in and see if we've been handling them correctly.
<godbyk> A few questions:
<kotux> yup.  Yeah, more tidying left to go.
<godbyk> 1. If a bug is misfiled under ubuntu-doc, and we're not sure where it should be reassigned, how do we handle it?  Assign it to ubuntu generally?
<godbyk> 2. Are there and project-wide tags or project names that we should use for the various projects that reside under the ubuntu-docs umbrella?
<godbyk> For example, docs for other *buntu flavors.. do they have different projects or tags?
<godbyk> I know the serverguide project is separate.
<bkerensa> jbicha: Quick Q: How did you import gnome doc into ubuntu doc?
<godbyk> And we've been trying to switch from ubuntu-doc to serverguide as appropriate.
<godbyk> kotux: Feel free to jump in with other questions you have or issues you've come across.
<jbicha> bkerensa: sudo apt-get install meld http://meldmerge.org/
 * kotux nods.
<GunnarHj> As regards the first question: Yes, reassign to Ubuntu if you can't figure out anything more specific.
<dsmythies> Yes, thanks... for the serverguide added tags. Many bug reports never get seen by serverguide contributors, yet would be easy to fix.
<jbicha> bkerensa: and then just line up your git checkout of gnome-user-docs with your ubuntu branch
<bkerensa> jbicha: is there any tagging in docs to let us know what is upstream doc and what is Ubuntu Doc?
<godbyk> jbicha: Okay, thanks. I may ping you about it again in the future if I run into problems or have more questions about it.
<kotux> I've seen some bugs reported in non-English languages
<kotux> Should the descriptions be updated in English?  Google translate comes in quite handy.
<GunnarHj> kotux: I would ask the bug reporter to add an English description.
<bkerensa> kotux: so for the bugs your triaging those are being reported on ubuntu-docs because help.ubuntu.com has ambigious footer
<jbicha> bkerensa: no, meld is really the only clue as to original source
<bkerensa> ok
<dsmythies> had an ambigious footer. It has been updated, for 13.04. Both serverguide and desktop.
<kotux> Right. I've noticed mostly bugs on wiki or system doc.  But some have been reported via apport, which was weird.
<bkerensa> hmm
<kotux> well, a handful
<GunnarHj> As a general approach: As long as you understand what the bug reporter is saying, don't put too much effort on the triaging process. Better to just fix it. ;-)
<bkerensa> I'm unsure why apport would send to ubuntu-doc
<kotux> bkerensa, It's a point to ponder.
<bkerensa> indeeed
<kotux> GunnarHj, when it comes to fixing, sometimes, I have the impulse to test them.
<GunnarHj> kotux: That's good, of course. So do I.
<kotux> But I can't at times.  For instance, I don't have any Ubuntu server in my home to run from.
<GunnarHj> Aha, you are talking server... I think it's possible to set up a virtual thing for testing, but I'm not able to tell how.
<bkerensa> If the bugs are erroneously filed on ubuntu-docs they should be flagged incomplete and ubuntu-docs should be dropped and they should be moved to whatever they really effect
<bkerensa> ideally Ubuntu Bug Squad should be doing this work
<bkerensa> ;)
 * bkerensa pokes bdmurray 
<bkerensa> but anyways lets get this last item discussed
<bkerensa> the next team will need the channel
<kotux> k, thanks for bringing that up bkerensa
<bkerensa> #topic Discussion surrounding requests to join team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Current topic: Discussion surrounding requests to join team
<bkerensa> So
<GunnarHj> bkerensa: Uhm.. I don't think that's a good way to use "incomplete".
<bkerensa> I wanted to quickly discuss how we will continue to direct people in regards to joining the team
<bkerensa> right now the process is   1. Get some commits in to show your contributions 2. Mail the list 3. Wait for mdke to add you
<kotux> This is where marketing and publicity come into play.
<kotux> mdke?
<godbyk> bkerensa: I think that process is okay for now except step 3 should be replaced with more people having rights to add people to the team.
<bkerensa> I think having mdke be the gate keeper for that is akward since he is not officially involved in any part of Ubuntu anymore and has not been for some time
<pleia2> godbyk: +1
<godbyk> And I'm guessing that the CC doesn't want to keep their role in step 3 either. :)
<bkerensa> so my thoughts on that are that we could create subteam
<bkerensa> like
<pleia2> godbyk: yeah, we want to get off the team asap ;)
<bkerensa> "Ubuntu Doc Leaders"
<bkerensa> or something
<bkerensa> and that team could add Ubuntu Doc Committers
<godbyk> bkerensa: Well, that's what the committers team is for, right?
<pleia2> bkerensa: couldn't we just make 3 people admins and be done with it?
<jbicha> bkerensa: you don't need a subteam to add people, just make people admins
<godbyk> pleia2: +1
<dsmythies> As I have mentioned before, do not confuse administrsation with team leader.
<bkerensa> pleia2: +1
<bkerensa> jbicha: +1
<pleia2> I really don't want to see another lp team :)
<kotux> pleia2: +1
<bkerensa> pleia2: +1
<pleia2> good, #agreed!
<bkerensa> so pleia2 would the CC ideally be ok with Dough Smythies, Kevin and myself to start and see how that goes?
<kotux> Is there a certain threshold for commits to be eligible?
<pleia2> bkerensa: let's vote on that now, CC will respect the team's vote
<godbyk> kotux: There's no hard number at the moment.
<bkerensa> kotux: not currently
<godbyk> kotux: The idea is that we just want to know that the person requesting commit rights won't break everything. :)
<bkerensa> ok
<bkerensa> so lets get a vote started
<kotux> godbyk, right.
<bkerensa> #voters godbyk kotux bkerensa dsmythies pleia2 GunnarHj
<meetingology> Current voters: GunnarHj bkerensa dsmythies godbyk kotux pleia2
<GunnarHj> +1
<kotux> :D
<dsmythies> Sorry, I am IRC challenged and do not know how to vote. Sounds O.K. to me.
<godbyk> What are we voting on?
<bkerensa> #vote Remove mdke and add dsmythies, godbyk and bkerensa to admin for onboarding
<meetingology> Please vote on: Remove mdke and add dsmythies, godbyk and bkerensa to admin for onboarding
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bkerensa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bkerensa
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<kotux> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kotux
<godbyk> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from godbyk
<dsmythies> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dsmythies
<GunnarHj> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GunnarHj
<bkerensa> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Remove mdke and add dsmythies, godbyk and bkerensa to admin for onboarding
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bkerensa> ok
<bkerensa> well that concludes the agenda
<dsmythies> Thanks everyone...
 * kotux takes a stretch. 
<bkerensa> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 10 22:58:35 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-10-22.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-10-22.00.html
<kotux> Yes, thank you everyone!
<bkerensa> :s
<GunnarHj> Thanks all!
<bkerensa> I have thee more meetings today
<bkerensa> ;P
<bkerensa> it never ends
<kotux> haha
<kotux> glad I'm not THAT busy. :P
<godbyk> Thanks, everyone, for coming.
<godbyk> We can continue discussing things in #ubuntu-doc if you like.
<godbyk> But we should probably get out of #ubuntu-meeting to free it up for the next meeting.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-11
<jamespage> o/
<roaksoax> o/
<zul> hola
<marcoceppi> o/
<hallyn> \o
<arosales> hello
<smb> \o
<hallyn> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 11 16:01:05 2013 UTC.  The chair is hallyn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<hallyn> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<adam_g_> o/
<Daviey> \o
<hallyn> (carried forward) arosales to follow up with Norvald regarding SRU
<arosales> hallyn, I still have to todo to create a server cloud burndown.  I am working on it now. should have an a topic by eod.
<arosales> hallyn, that one can be removed
<hallyn> cool, thanks
<Daviey> arosales: thanks
<hallyn> arosales create a overview topic bp for servercloud
<hallyn> oh that's that
<hallyn> arosales: the bp one can be removed, wht about the SRU item?
<arosales> hallyn, reverse
 * hallyn confused
<hallyn> ok
<arosales> sru can be removed
<arosales> topic can stay
<arosales> to ensure I get it done :-)
<hallyn> but you intend to get that done today
<arosales> hallyn, correct
<hallyn> #action (carried over) arosales: create a overview topic bp for servercloud
<meetingology> ACTION: (carried over) arosales: create a overview topic bp for servercloud
<hallyn> #topic Saucy Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Saucy Development
<hallyn> Release Tracking Bug Tasks - http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-s-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<hallyn> there are 4 critical bugs in that link
<hallyn> bug 1175028
<ubottu> bug 1175028 in mongodb (Ubuntu Saucy) "Mongodb links GPL code with SSL" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1175028
<Daviey> defer
<Daviey> currently being discussed by TB
<hallyn> ok, bug 1176686
<ubottu> bug 1176686 in qtchooser (Ubuntu Raring) "qtchooser does not properly work with multiarch" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1176686
<hallyn> is that server?
<Daviey> hallyn: nah
<hallyn> ok, bug 969733
<ubottu> bug 969733 in oss4 (Ubuntu Precise) "oss4-dkms 4.2-build2005-2ubuntu1: oss4 kernel module failed to build (cp: cannot stat `/lib/modules/3.2.0-23-generic/source/include/linux/limits.h': No such file or directory)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/969733
<hallyn> also not server i'm guessing
<hallyn> ok, so nm the critical ones - anything you wanted to bring up here, Daviey?
<Daviey> Nope. :)
<Daviey> Things seem to be progressing well.
<Daviey> Just really, make sure bluepritns are totally nailed. :)
<hallyn> are there any that are worrying you?
<Daviey> And do add WI's as more stuff appears
<Daviey> hallyn: not specifically
<hallyn> hm, yeah i might have some WIs to add...
<hallyn> ok, do you want an action to do one more once-over on all our blueprints,?
<hallyn> #action everyone look over blueprints one more time
<meetingology> ACTION: everyone look over blueprints one more time
<hallyn> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<hallyn> anything coming up?
<Daviey> Nothing I can think of..
<Daviey> arosales: know of anything?
<hallyn> ok, moving on
<hallyn> #tpic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<hallyn> bleh
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<hallyn> plars: all well?
<plars> nothing big from me at the moment, there were some failures late last week with the server image
<plars> but all is well now
<plars> except the floodlight test still of course
<arosales> Daviey, for events just oscon coming up
<hallyn> awesome.  questions for plars?
<plars> kernel team has a kernel to bisect for that
<plars> going to try to get to it this week if I can, but the other guy that does production qa (psivaa) is out right now
<plars> so I'm covering a lot at the moment
<plars> will get to it as soon as I can
<hallyn> thanks, plars
<Daviey> plars: Thanks for the update
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Kernel is good (until we slap in 3.10 at least). Questions?
<hallyn> your irc comment pasting reflex time may be better than the brake reflex time of most drivers around here
<Daviey> smb: Are kernel uploads being regression tested against dkms packages yet?
<smb> Daviey, Have you told us which?
<smb> Officially I mean
<smb> Or better plars
<Daviey> smb: When this was last discussed, i suggetsed all dkms packages
<hallyn> *
<plars> smb: jibel mentioned yesterday that he has a prototype of this, not sure on the details other than that
<Daviey> At least having a documented history of when the regression was introduced has value.
<smb> This would be a few and maybe not all with a naming scheme to detect and not necessarily server related
<Daviey> plars: Oh splendid.  Can you find out the details for next weeks meeting please?
<plars> Daviey: why wait a week? I'll either send smb an email, or have jibel do it since he's closer to the action on that piece
<Daviey> smb: Right, it's not actually that many.  Listing the reverse dependencies of dkms itself should suffice
<smb> plars, Sounds good
<hallyn> no action needed for that?
<hallyn> ok, moving on
<Daviey> plars: pls keep me in the loop
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report. Any questions for me?
<hallyn> hi rbasak
<jamespage> rbasak, is the go 1.1 issue in saucy resolved now?
 * jamespage is being lazy
<rbasak> Oh, good question. I don't think there's been any progress on it. I need to follow up.
<Daviey> rbasak: How are the arm saucy images looking?
 * rbasak makes a note
<hallyn> #action rbasak to follow up on go 1.1. saucy arm issue
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to follow up on go 1.1. saucy arm issue
<hallyn> thanks, moving on in 3,
<hallyn> 2, 1,
<hallyn> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<hallyn> anything?
<rbasak> \o
<rbasak> Just a note for meeting chairs, while they're all here.
<rbasak> There's been some confusion lately about what needs to be done after a meeting.
<Daviey> good thinking
<hallyn> There's a good list in the Knowledgebase
<rbasak> I just wanted to point out that the steps are enumerated at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase
<rbasak> Right.
<hallyn> yes, everyeone please follow that and fill in if anything is missing
<hallyn> I think we've done a good job of keepign it uptodate
<hallyn> thanks rbasak.  is there anything in particular that isn't being done?
<hallyn> (regularly)
<Daviey> specifically, "move yourself to the back" hasn't been done for a while it seems
<rbasak> Sometimes minutes aren't being done also.
<rbasak> It causes confusion in subsequent meetings, since action items go missing or are from older meetings that have already been resolved.
<hallyn> i think it might help if we say it should be done by either thu or friday
<rbasak> I think it's just due to all chairs not knowing that the process is documented.
<rbasak> So now it's documented :)
<hallyn> once it gets into monday, i think ppl feel that it's too late
<hallyn> but i'll wait for someone else to recommend that :)  moving on?
<Daviey> +1
<rbasak> I think part of the problem is that individually we chair quite infrequently
<hallyn> feels frequent to me :)
<rbasak> A reminder at the end of the meeting might help. Perhaps we could add it as a standing action item in the agenda?
<Daviey> rbasak: Fancy being the resident chair? :)
 * hallyn takes a step back and admires rbasak's team spirit
<hallyn> :)
<rbasak> As resident chair, I delegate the task of doing this week's minutes to hallyn :-P
<hallyn> rbasak: a remidner at most should consist of a pointer to the wiki page
<Daviey> +1, super
<Daviey> remember, moin minutes are generated courtesy of meetingology.
<hallyn> yeah but i prefer manually generated, actually meaningful notes
<hallyn> moin generated ones aren't actually helpful imo.  just to fill in a chekcmark in your todo list
<Daviey> True.
<rbasak> I use the moin notes as a starting point
<rbasak> But one step at a time. Step 1: do something for the minutes. Anything.
<Daviey> The chair can take care to word their action points suitably to make a more useful autogenerated moin output
<hallyn> #action rbasak consider telling hallyn to add a todo item to meeting checklist to remind meeting chair about the wiki page checklist.
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak consider telling hallyn to add a todo item to meeting checklist to remind meeting chair about the wiki page checklist.
<rbasak> I'll do it now :)
<hallyn> INVALID
<hallyn> all right, moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<Daviey> same time, same place?
<hallyn> That'll be next tuesday, June 18 at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting.
<hallyn> thanks, everyone.
<arosales> thanks for charing hallyn :-)
<Daviey> thanks for chairing hallyn
<hallyn> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 16:24:32 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-11-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-11-16.01.html
<rbasak> Thanks hallyn!
<jsalisbury_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 11 17:00:48 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury_> ##
<jsalisbury_> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury_> ##
<jsalisbury_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Saucy
<jsalisbury_> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury_> #
<jsalisbury_> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury_> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury_> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<apw> o/
<rtg_> o/
<henrix> o/
<kamal> o/
<sforshee> o/
<sconklin> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury_> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Q/master: lp1176977 ("XFS instability on armhf under load") - turned out some
<ppisati> xfs tests failure that i was experiencing were already present in 3.5.y
<ppisati> vanilla for arm, so none of the backported patches were responsible for it.
<ppisati> On the other hand, there's a new 100% reproducible hang while running
<ppisati> tests/generic/0368. Still working on it, collecting patches, pinging upstream,
<ppisati> etcetc.
<ppisati> */highbank: lp1182637("cpu_offlining fails to run on ARM") - according to
<ppisati> robherr this is due to a different u-boot that we are using, waiting for an
<ppisati> update.
<ppisati> S/master: did some testing of 3.10-rcX for omap[34], imx6 and vexpress, so
<ppisati> far so good.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury_> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury_> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury_> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury_> ..
<jsalisbury_> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || foundations-1305-kernel || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ||           || mobile-power-management || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee  || foundations-1303-phablet-kernel-maintenance || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || servercloud-s-virtstack || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury_> [TOPIC] Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Our Saucy unstable branch has been rebased to the latest v3.10-rc5
<ogasawara> upstream kernel.  We are still holding off on a v3.10 based upload due
<ogasawara> to missing AUFS support as well as some DKMS package failures we would
<ogasawara> like to resolve.  We have however gone ahead and rebased our Saucy master
<ogasawara> branch to the recent v3.9.5 upstream stable and plan to upload that
<ogasawara> today.
<ogasawara> On the mobile front I'm hearing news that the container flip should
<ogasawara> hopefully be happening this week.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> Thurs June 20 - Alpha 1 (opt in)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury_> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin> == 2013-06-11 (7 days) ==
<sconklin> Currently we have 68 CVEs on our radar, with 9 CVEs added and 0 CVEs retired in the last week.
<sconklin> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury_> TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<sconklin> Status for the main kernels, until today (Jun. 11):
<sconklin> *   Lucid - Awaiting Certification Testing;
<sconklin> * Precise - Awaiting Certification Testing and Regression testing;
<sconklin> * Quantal - Awaiting Certification Testing;
<sconklin> * Raring  - Awaiting Certification Testing and Regression testing;
<sconklin> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<sconklin> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<sconklin> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<sconklin> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<sconklin> Future stable cadence cycles:
<sconklin> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury_> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury_> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 17:05:35 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-11-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-11-17.00.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-12
 * slangasek waves
<ev> herrow
<doko> hi
<stokachu> oh harooooo
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 12 15:02:24 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> stokachu slangasek bdmurray doko stgraber ev barry jodh cjwatson xnox
<ev> wooo, time
<bdmurray> I will type slowly to bide you time
<stokachu> i just got one bug on the list bug 962046
<ubottu> bug 962046 in python-boto (Ubuntu Quantal) "EC2 metadata retrieval fails with spaces in a resource name" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/962046
<stokachu> the sru template is in the comment but ill move it to the description in a min
 * xnox quickly runs to generate a cup of coffee
<stokachu> done.
<slangasek> stokachu: is the bug still applicable to saucy?  It's marked 'triaged'
<stokachu> dosaboy: ^
<slangasek> stokachu: and this is at the "Needs upload sponsorship" stage for the SRUs?
<ev> bdmurray: :D
<stokachu> slangasek: as far as im told they are waiting on upload as well
<stokachu> if i dont hear from dosaboy in the next hour ill double check saucy status
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anyone here want to pick those up for SRU sponsorship?
<xnox> i can
<stgraber> slangasek: I'll do it once we know that it's indeed fixed in saucy
<slangasek> xnox got there first :)
<slangasek> xnox: thanks :)
<slangasek>  * seem to have fixed my kernel swap death issue now by disabling /tmp on tmpfs - thanks, xnox!
<slangasek>  * working with Phonedations team on the container flip - udev vs. ueventd, partitioning questions
<slangasek>  * established a regular biweekly sync with the QA team to keep aligned on priorities
<slangasek>  * prep for Plumbers and for the upcoming client sprint
<slangasek> (done)
<stokachu> slangasek: is that ods in nov?
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager to S after making it no longer check for auto-launch
<bdmurray> uploaded update-notifier to S removing auto-launch key again
<bdmurray> searched ubuntu archive using ubuntu-security-tools for update-notifier auto-launch usage
<bdmurray> tested bug 981461 regarding WoL
<ubottu> bug 981461 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Network interfaces are not correctly brought down on halt, disrupting Wake-on-LAN" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/981461
<bdmurray> research into ubuntu-drivers-common / nvidia problem seen on errors
<bdmurray> errors - redesign of bucketsystems column family
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposals for daisy, oops-repository, errors
<bdmurray> fixed 'All versions' being missing from the versions table in errors
<bdmurray> fixed an OOPS with errors
<slangasek> stokachu: Plumbers is in September; the client sprint is a tech-lead-y, manager-y meeting at the end of July
<stokachu> ah
<bdmurray> fixed a unicode issue with errors
<bdmurray> email to ubuntu bug control regarding error tracker
<bdmurray> merge proposal for change-override to set the phased_update_percentage
<bdmurray> tested Phased-Update-Percentage=0 and Always-Install-Phased-Updates apt option
<bdmurray> improvements to my phased-updater code
<bdmurray> irc discussion and investigation into bug 982082 with barry
<ubottu> bug 982082 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "do-release-upgrade crashed with IOError in init_proxy(): [Errno 5] Input/output error" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/982082
<bdmurray> doneâ¼
<doko> - updated cross compilers
<doko> - fixed cross build of native compiler
<doko> - binutils update to the trunk, updated cross binutils
<doko> - preparing gcc upload using new binutils
<doko> - preparing first test rebuild of saucy
<doko> - arm64 stage0 bringup, together with cjwatson
<doko> (done)
<stgraber> slangasek: I hope to find some time this week to look at the container flip again, last week I was mostly stuck on issues related to read-only / and the Android container behind a bit unhappy about this (ueventd wouldn't start, so SF would fail to start and the container would die taking the system with it)
<xnox> doko: when will that rebuild start? weekend?
<doko> I hope so. need to upload that gcc
<dosaboy> stokachu: bug just says precise and quantal but is quite old so maybe we should apply to saucy too?
<stgraber> Blueprint-related work:
<stgraber>  - Image based updates (BLUEPRINT: foundations-1305-image-based-updates)
<stgraber>   - Waiting on review of the GPG implementation plan, need to get the keys generated and signed after that.
<stgraber>   - Waiting for IS to setup the image based update server.
<stgraber>   - Implemented xz compression/decompression functions in the server code
<stgraber>   - Implemented GPG keys generation, keyring generation and file signature functions in the server code
<stgraber>   - Good progress on the publishing code (generation of channels.json, index.json and individual update publication)
<stgraber>   - Registered a new LP project (ubuntu-system-image) and team to store all the code related to image based upgrades
<stgraber>   - Clarified some details in the specs
<stgraber>   - Discussed OEM/carrier customizations and how that'll work with image based updates
<xnox> dosaboy: how does one exactly test this? should I start an instance in ec2? cause just running the testcase script here locally, simply hangs indefinately.
<stgraber> Other work:
<stgraber>  - release/cdimage
<stgraber>   - Some follow-up e-mails on ~ubuntu-sru expiration of some current members
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>   - Some more discussions on partitioning and containers
<stgraber>   - Discussed OMA with asac and lool
<stgraber>  - LXC
<stgraber>   - Usual code reviews
<stgraber>  - Got bored of my laptop wasting a lot of CPU keeping thunderbird happy, so switched back to offlineimap+mutt, still tweaking the configs so poke me if you see something that doesn't look right (encoding, gpg signature, source address, ...)
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - Try and get the rest of the image updates server tools implemented and tested so they are ready to be used once we have the server online and the keys generated
<stgraber>  - Follow-up with the phonedation team on getting the container fliped images to use a read-only rootfs and use the planned partition layout
<stgraber>  - Finish self-rebuilds feature implementation on nusakan
<stgraber>  - Process some pending merges (ifupdown and resolvconf)
<stgraber> (DONE)
<ev> - Small bug fixes to our back population jobs (that are still falling over -
<ev>   working with gnuoy to find out what is sending them SIGKILL).
<ev> - Investigating the retracers all falling over because all the Cassandra
<ev>   connections went away. Discussed with Tom and decided to increase the timeout
<ev>   for individual connections (it was silly-low) and provide better metrics on
<ev>   connection failures.
<ev> - Fixed our usage on txstatsd reporting into Graphite, with help from sidnei.
<ev>   We now have graphs of pycassa connection creations, failures, and disposals.
<ev>   This should really help debug some of the "OMG every node is telling us to
<ev>   go away" problems we see from time to time, especially on the retracers:
<ev>   https://graphite.engineering.canonical.com/render/?width=1129&height=614&_salt=1371049545&target=statsd.whoopsie-daisy.daisy.cassandra_connection_failures.rate&from=-48hours
<ev> - More discussion with the server team on error reporting. Making the case for
<ev>   a default option in the d-i module of, "Yes, I'd like to help make Ubuntu
<ev>   better by turning on automatic error reporting."
<ev> - Lots of investigation around why Keystone is *still* throwing 403s at us
<ev>   throughout the day when writing core dumps into Swift. We've got myself, the
<ev>   GSAs, webops, and U1 looking into it now, so hopefully we'll have a solution
<ev>   soon.
<ev> - Made my biggest changes to lp:canonical-memento yet, removing HAProxy from in
<ev>   front of the Cassandra nodes:
<ev>   https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=62027
<ev> - Discussions with legal on giving Kees access to the error reporting data for
<ev>   the purposes of hunting security vulnerabilities. Now have an amended
<ev>   document written, just waiting for the signatories to return from events.
<ev> - Code review for Brian.
<ev> - Our usual review process failed quite spectacularly for some changes in
<ev>   support of phased updates. Shepherded some quick fixes through with the help
<ev>   of webops, but there was a deeper problem.
<ev> - In investigating what was going wrong with the above, finally hooked the unit
<ev>   tests for oops-repository up to Tarmac (so we have a safety net for human
<ev>   error in the merge review process). I also fixed the bug.
<ev> (done!)
<barry> image based upgrades - the gpg regime is almost complete (one last pathological case to handle).  should be merged into the main trunk today or tomorrow.
<barry> LP: #1058884 - all SRUs uploaded, awaiting approval
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1058884 in python3.3 (Ubuntu Raring) "Race condition in py_compile corrupts pyc files" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1058884
<barry> LP: #982082, LP: #1094218 - thought i had sru'd the fix, but maybe i didn't?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 982082 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "do-release-upgrade crashed with IOError in init_proxy(): [Errno 5] Input/output error" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/982082
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1094218 in lsb (Ubuntu) "lsb_release crashed with IOError in getstatusoutput(): [Errno 10] No child processes (called by teamviewerd)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094218
<barry> done
<stokachu> stgraber: are you a fan of teh docker.io?
<stgraber> stokachu: I haven't used it myself, but we are in touch with the guys behind it and try to improve the upstream LXC library to better fit their need and reduce the code duplication (they currently wrap our binaries which isn't really ideal)
<stokachu> nice!
<xnox> stgraber: if you have any offlineimap patches, feel free to poke me and include them upstream/debian/ubuntu.
<dosaboy> xnox: i did not personally do the test, let me find out
 * xnox really should resurrect my offlineimap setup.
<slangasek> stgraber: resolvconf> so I know Thomas wanted us to drop some of our delta around the maintainer scripts... have you worked through whether that's the right thing to do / safe?
<stgraber> slangasek: no. I haven't actually looked at the new resolvconf yet but I remember Thomas' e-mail. My guess is that I'll start with a simple merge, then we can look at reducing the delta after that (should reduce the number of regressions vs doing all of that at once)
<xnox> dosaboy: yeah, at the moment I feel like setting the bug to incomplete because it's not possible to follow the test case steps to reproduce the problem. I am guessing it assumes some kind of special environment where that python snippet should be executed.
<slangasek> stgraber: ok.  I think the "simple merge" is going to have to deal with this issue, because of how much the code has changed on the Debian side.
<stgraber> slangasek: ah, is it that bad? as I said, I haven't looked at the new version yet, but if he did some major changes to the maintainer scripts, then I guess we won't have much choice indeed...
<slangasek> cjwatson: no jodh today, you're up
<cjwatson> Usual round of syncs, merges, transition management, and pushing NBS up the hill.
<cjwatson> Fixed udev-udeb startup script regression that broke d-i (bug 1188864).
<ubottu> bug 1188864 in systemd (Ubuntu) "/dev/pts not getting mounted before install" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1188864
<cjwatson> foundations-1305-arm64-bringup: Assembled stage0 for new arm64 port, with doko.  Lots of cross-builds, and some fixes pushed to saucy and forwarded to Debian.  debootstrap --variant=buildd now works under emulation, plus apt and debhelper.
<cjwatson> foundations-1305-click-package: Added buildsource subcommand to click-package.
<cjwatson> Worked on autopkgtest integration in proposed-migration.  I have the general shape of this now and am debugging it into existence.
<cjwatson> Debugged a crash in proposed-migration, caused by incorrect undo handling for overlapping virtual packages in different sources involved in the same hint.  Several hours for a one-line fix.
<cjwatson> ..
<xnox> * Upstart: Uploaded full serialisation cherrypick into saucy, with
<xnox>   additional postinst checks as per slangasek's comments. Waiting on
<xnox>   smoser to test. And will upload into raring-proposed this week.
<xnox> * Helped out hunting down why ecryptfs-tools moved into minimal, and
<xnox>   moved it back by uploading adduser.
<xnox> * gcc-bionic toolchain: gitified using repo tool, dropped java
<xnox>   build-dep, enabled parallel build, pushed to github, send email to
<xnox>   doko & phonedations.
<xnox> * cryptsetup: changed to conditionally include cryptsetup tools and
<xnox>   modules only when required. Tested all cross-combinations of common
<xnox>   setups and uploaded. Wrote a blog post to ubuntu planet about the
<xnox>   changes.
<xnox> * Generated some more overall copyright documents.
<xnox> * Upstart Jobs: util-linux: forwarded hwclock upstart jobs to
<xnox>   debian. (adjusted to suit debian)
<xnox> * Installer: have a patch to drop pkexec (testing remaining flavours),
<xnox>   todo fix up logind integration, todo investigate why U1 page hangs.
<xnox> ..
<slangasek> xnox: cryptsetup++
<slangasek> now we get to wait for all the bug reports to trickle in against plymouth from the users who were using ecryptfs and now only see the Ubuntu splash screen for a second at boot ;)
<xnox> slangasek: still needs a forward to debian, as it does a lot to determine whether it's needed or not, only to say "setup="yes"" and include it unconditionally anyway.
<slangasek> xnox: hwclock> interesting... considering Debian has (incorrectly) opted to use /etc/adjtime instead of a simple config file listing UTC=yes/no, how did that forwarding go?
<xnox> slangasek: it's a "port"
<slangasek> hmmmm, ok. :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<xnox> slangasek: i have a few questions about their "integration" basically the package was moved to use /etc/adjtime because of systemd-timedated blindly ignoring existing hwclock.sh settings or actually changing all other packages that read & use UTC option.
<slangasek> this is probably a short topic today, stokachu gave his 1 bug earlier and bdmurray seems to have been flagging attention to stuff on the list
<slangasek> xnox: hmm, I don't think that was the reason for changing the package
<bdmurray> I agree with slangasek as I don't have anything else
<slangasek> xnox: mostly it was the sysvinit maintainer wanting to pare down /etc/default/rcS to be able to make it a conffile
<xnox> slangasek: well it was consolidating two settings into one setting in one location, but chose the wrong file yet the stated claim is that "it's all universal now"
<slangasek> heh, ok
<cjwatson> slangasek: did you find time for those clock-setup/ubiquity changes, or do I need to?
<xnox> slangasek: hmm.... do you have a pointer/URL about this: "wanting to pare down /etc/default/rcS to be able to make it a conffile"
<xnox> slangasek: ?
<slangasek> xnox: the historical assertion by Keybuk is that we don't need adjtime /at all/.  I haven't proven this to myself however, so I haven't tried to argue it to the util-linux Debian maintainers... maybe you could dig into this and get it sorted?  It's not too late to reverse the /etc/adjtime usage in Debian
<slangasek> xnox: um, the pointer is in my brain, it references IRC conversations with rleigh
<slangasek> cjwatson: haven't done so yet, but I will this week
<cjwatson> ok
<xnox> slangasek: systemd uses /etc/adjtime
<xnox> slangasek: already as integrated in util-linux package in debian.
<slangasek> xnox: this is no proof that it's correct :P
<xnox> slangasek: correct, I do not state that.
<slangasek> xnox: the changes to util-linux were *not* driven by systemd, they were driven by the sysvinit maintainer
<xnox> slangasek: ok. i shall reconcile all of those things in my ahead at one point.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> rants about bugs?  movie reviews?
<bdmurray> no spoilers though!
<barry> kaiser soze
<cjwatson> the titanic sinks at the end
<xnox> is the new superman any good / worth going to? (man of steel.... such a pun on 'iron man')
<bdmurray> Of course it is worth going to
<bdmurray> Its Superman!
 * xnox is going to see Swan Lake this evening at Royal Albert Hall
<cjwatson> I'd be surprised if the nickname "Man of Steel" didn't predate the Iron Man comics by a couple of decades :)
<cjwatson> first Superman comic 1938, first Iron Man comic 1963
<slangasek> nonsense, all media was invented in 1998
<cjwatson> films I'm watching lately aren't new - taking the kids through Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter
<xnox> i'm yet to see the first/old star wars episodes.....
 * bdmurray walks away
<slangasek> :D
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 12 15:36:14 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-12-15.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-12-15.02.html
<slangasek> Peter Mayhew was detained by the TSA
<slangasek> for a lightsaber walking stick
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<cjwatson> headdesk
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-15
<phillw> Hi, anyone from -meeting about?
<JoseeAntonioR> phillw: what's the matter?
<TheLordOfTime> i think phillw wants to book meetings on the fridge calendar
<JoseeAntonioR> that's done at #ubuntu-news.
<TheLordOfTime> phillw:  ^
<phillw> JoseeAntonioR:  I would lime to book the following.....
<phillw> They will still be at 20:00 UTC / GMT
<phillw> Tue 25th June (pre Alpha 1)Tue 23rd July (pre Alpha 2)Tue 27th August (Pre Beta 1)Tue 24th September (Pre Final Beta)Tue 15th October (Final push for the release of 13.10).
<JoseeAntonioR> phillw: I said, #ubuntu-news :)
 * phillw goes and moves :)
<TheLordOfTime> lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-16
 * nlsthzn lurks in the shadows
 * s-fox is a shadow ;)
 * elfy is definitely not a beacon of light
<s-fox> coffeecat elfy cariboo907  sefsef you here?
<sefsef> yes
<coffeecat> here
<cariboo907> here
<s-fox> alright, lets get going...
<s-fox> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jun 16 17:59:44 2013 UTC.  The chair is s-fox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<s-fox> #voters sefsef coffeecat cariboo907 elfy
<meetingology> Current voters: cariboo907 coffeecat elfy sefsef
<s-fox> oh and #voters s-fox
<s-fox> #voters s-fox
<meetingology> Current voters: cariboo907 coffeecat elfy s-fox sefsef
<s-fox> first item on the agenda is the new COC
<s-fox> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2146904
<s-fox> Basically we're looking to split it up into manageable sections. We have a draft, but it really needs all of the admins to have a proper look at it
<s-fox> here is the discussion in the admin thread - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2153266&p=12692534&viewfull=1
<s-fox> so, it isn't something to vote on but i'd like us all to have looked at it properly and make it live on july 1st
<s-fox> any comments?
<sefsef> I agree. Would like to have a look at it before voting on it
<elfy> only that, that suits me
<s-fox> coffeecat and cariboo907  ?
<coffeecat> I think we're almost there. Just a few details to check imo
<elfy> agreed - but I want all of us to have done so
<s-fox> so would you agree it isn't unreasonable to have it checked out and live by july 1st?
<cariboo907> I agree with coffeecat
<cariboo907> +1 to that
<s-fox> okay, good :)
<coffeecat> +1 to check it out and go live by 1st July.
<s-fox> #agreed Have ALL admins look at the new COC and make it live by July 1st
<s-fox> hmm, lol
<s-fox> anyway, next item is the UWN stuff for pleia2
<s-fox> She wants us to contribute to it with forums related information.
<s-fox> We've talked about it, but cannot do it until Canonical actively start looking at the vBulletin API.
<elfy> not want so much as made the offer
<s-fox> She volunteered us?
<s-fox> hmm
<sefsef> so this is more for the future?
<s-fox> Anyway, we can't do anything until canonical look at the api.  sort of out of our hands.
<elfy> no - s-fox - she asked if we wanted to
<cariboo907> that's my impression
<s-fox> Okay :)
<s-fox> So after some discussion we're going to shelve it for the time being and pick it up in future
<elfy> yep
<sefsef> +1
<cariboo907> yep2
<coffeecat> agreed
<s-fox> Well that is all the items.  anything else anyone wants to bring up while we are here?
<s-fox> or can i beat my own record of shortest meeting ever? :)
<sefsef> new record has been set
<elfy> just the tasks
<cariboo907> what about division  of tasks?
<s-fox> oh yes,  are we happy to keep them as they are, or do we want to mix it up again?
<s-fox> what do you guys want to do?
<sefsef> keep them for now...maybe change every year or six months.
<coffeecat> I'm happy with keeping mine for now.
<elfy> sefsef: really? no thanks
<s-fox> sefsef:  forgive me, but have you done one the reports yet?
<sefsef> yes with elfy
<elfy> someone else can get the mails
<sefsef> a bit of a pain to do
<elfy> please
<s-fox> i can do the emails elfy
<elfy> ok
<s-fox> who wants to do the report, coffeecat or cariboo907  maybe?
<s-fox> or i can help you guys if you're not sure
<cariboo907> I'll do the report
<s-fox> cool. thanks cariboo907
<s-fox> do you need any help?
<cariboo907> I've done it several times before, but thanks
<s-fox> okay, thats good to know.  if you do need help then holler ;)
<elfy> I think we need to look at how we do it at some point - lot of silly steps
<cariboo907> I will :)
<s-fox> right, i think that is the tasks done so going to end the meeting unless anyone objects
<elfy> fine with me
<cariboo907> +1 to end the meeting
<sefsef> +1
<coffeecat> +1
<s-fox> oh yeah, minor announcement - We've got new mods. Watch out ;) haha
<sefsef> haha
<s-fox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Jun 16 18:13:41 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-16-17.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-16-17.59.html
<s-fox> thanks for coming.
<s-fox> nice and short and quite relaxed meeting
<s-fox> :)
 * nlsthzn lurks further away
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-09
<jjohansen> \o
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<chrisccoulson> o/
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  9 16:35:13 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for precise-trusty for mod-wsgi (LP: #1322338). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1322338 in mod-wsgi (Ubuntu Utopic) "CVE 2014-0240 and CVE 2014-0242" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1322338
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> short week this week. I am off Wednesday
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> I need to send my ofono hardening work to the phonedations team (ie, where only certain applications can communicate to ofono)
<jdstrand> there is a bit more work to do there, but I have it working on my phone, so that is good
<jdstrand> I have been doing phablet kernel testing for jjohansen-- mako looks good so far, still need to do flo and goldfish, but I imagine jjohansen has those tested already
<jdstrand> I am working on several different openstack updates
<jdstrand> and have various sprint outcomes to still go through
<jjohansen> sure I've run those, there are some basic policy updates, but jdstrand has seen those already
<jjohansen> jdstrand: you pulled in the new apparmor package correct?
<jdstrand> jjohansen: yes
<jjohansen> okay good
<jdstrand> we need to get this into utopic so our delta is as small as possible when we update for abstract, but we can talk about that in jjohansen's time
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have some json-c packages to test, and am currently working on dpkg updates
<mdeslaur> also have to do the non-trivial libtasn backports
<mdeslaur> tomorrow, I'm doing a Q&A for UDS^H^H^Hwhatever replaces UDS
<jdstrand> oh, I guess there is UOS too
<jdstrand> (jeez, busy week)
 * sbeattie collects rotten tomatoes for that
<mdeslaur> and I need to look at an updated apparmor package for U
<mdeslaur> jjohansen's packages is missing a couple of the latest commits, which I guess we're going to want
<mdeslaur> so I'll remerge from trunk I guess
<mdeslaur> and, yeah, attend UOS
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: O_o I pulled that fresh on friday
<jjohansen> not that the debian packaging side doesn't need some fixing :)
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: oh, the two missing commits are freom friday
<mdeslaur> d'oh
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: yeah, I'll take a look and see if everything's good with the packaging
<jjohansen> haha, nice
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm focusing again on getting pie by default for amd64 in gcc this week
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: what's the current status?
<sbeattie> I have a test compiler that bootstraps and does the right for common cases.
<sbeattie> There's a couple of situations that the gcc testsuite where it's not compiling the .o with -fPIE when it needs to, but tries to link with -pie, which fails, so I'm tracking down why that fails.
<sbeattie> I'm in the middle of setting up a ppa with that compiler as the default, to enable wider testing/benchmarking.
<mdeslaur> cool
<sbeattie> I have some apparmor patches to review and submit.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: oh, are those good for U too?
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: cboltz's patch is, yes, though I need to dig in to why I can't reproduce his failure in U.
<mdeslaur> ok
<sbeattie> I may try to take a swap day off on friday...
<sbeattie> And I'll be attending UOS.
<sbeattie> That's it for me, I think. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm focusing on my kdbus work item this week
<tyhicks> I keep letting myself get distracted by other work, so I'm only going to plan on that one work item
<tyhicks> I'll sync up w/ everyone once it is done for what I should focus on next
<tyhicks> (Some UOS for me this week, as well)
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> So I've got UOS to distract me this week, and a couple of bugs to poke at and at least triage
<jjohansen> We have the utopic touch device kernels in testing, and I think ready to be pulled
<jjohansen> so I will send that request out as soon as its dependencies fall into place (maybe this week)
<mdeslaur> is anything there waiting on a new userspace?
<jjohansen> This basically falls out as: more testing, policy updates, and the new apparmor userspace in U
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: yep, the kernel won't go until that is updated, reason: userspace fixes a compiler issue that results in policy that causes failures under the new kernel
<mdeslaur> hrm
<mdeslaur> ok
<mdeslaur> guess I'll work on that tomorrow or wed then
<jjohansen> Besides testing/collaborating with jdstrand on the policy updates, I'll be working on the apparmor kernel module
 * mdeslaur still needs to figure out how he got volunteered to do the U update
<jjohansen> to finish up the missing pieces
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: well it was one of those quick mdeslaur isn't paying attention get him to agree while he is distracted
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: we sent you out to collect beer and cheetos while we decided, to help the volunteering process along.
<sarnold> I'm wondering when we're goign to tell mdeslaur he also volunteered for the T update...
<jdstrand> jjohansen: policy updates should all be in place
 * mdeslaur shakes fist at team
<jjohansen> jdstrand: when will they hit the images?
<jdstrand> they are there
<jdstrand> check that off your list :)
<jjohansen> okay, I'll update and see how it goes, and then check it off the list :P
<jjohansen> I think that is it for me, sarnold your up
<jdstrand> on mako I have no denials except with media-hub, but that is unrelated
<jdstrand> (it also works fine and I've pinged jhodapp about it)
<jjohansen> jdstrand: I expect everything will be fine, I just want to run it through the 4 devices to make sure
<jdstrand> sure
 * jjohansen wants to avoid the whole your new kernel broke, ... mess
<sarnold> I'm on triage this week; I'm also reading some angry tweets for UOS, investigating click packaging to see how authenticity checks are being performed, and if there's any time left returning to the interminable mod_wsgi fixes for django
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> this week, it's mozilla updates for me
<chrisccoulson> plus one other update
<chrisccoulson> my other main task is fixing bug 1312082, which I hope to have done this week
<ubottu> bug 1312082 in Oxide "Stop using deprecated compositing paths" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1312082
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: so will the new paths be next on the deprecated list, or are they the current ones? :)
<chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, no, we'll be using the same path as all other platforms :)
<mdeslaur> oh cool :)
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: moving away from the deprecated paths is required for the media-hub work to really start, correct?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, there's parts of that which can be started without it
<jdstrand> sure, but this has to be done for it
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: the others are starting on the parts that can be done now, no?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, yeah, I think so
 * jdstrand saw various bug assignments, etc last week
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libapache2-mod-nss.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dolibarr.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnumeric.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ircd-ratbox.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ngircd.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  9 17:15:37 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-09-16.35.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-10
<kees> o/
<mdeslaur> hi kees
<mdeslaur> there was a conflicting meeting in here last week, we may need to move to #ubuntu-meeting-2
<kees> ok
<mdeslaur> s/last week/last time/
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-12
<fedora> ï¼¸
<fedora> æäººä¹
<fedora> welcome
 * slangasek waves
<mvo> hi
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 12 15:01:22 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> not sure who all is around given UOS, but let's see :)
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> bdmurray doko stgraber jodh slangasek mvo sil2100 cjwatson caribou robru bhuey infinity barry xnox
<sil2100> I'm around if anything ;)
<xnox> \o/ win
<mvo> lol
<bdmurray> so we've moved to another cassandra database for errors.ubuntu.com and I've been working on that a bunch
<bdmurray> phone call regarding cassandra database for errors
<bdmurray> research into dpkg custom comparator for cassandra
<bdmurray> testing of temp DSE ring with whoopsie and errors
<bdmurray> many a conversation with thedac regarding the DSE temp ring
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding errors.staging.ubuntu.com cert and login failure
<bdmurray> email to ubuntu sru team regarding new cassandra database
<bdmurray> fixed an error with daisy not returning the OOPSID in some cases
<bdmurray> updated errors to return more information for the phased updater
<bdmurray> updated daisy to log more information when writing to swift
<bdmurray> crash reporting hangout with the phonedations team
<bdmurray> built sleep from coreutils on nexus4 (killing it does not cause a corrupt stack)
<bdmurray> uploaded whoopsie to utopic fixing bug 1326000
<ubottu> bug 1326000 in whoopsie (Ubuntu Trusty) "whoopsie should record OOPS ID for an uploaded crash" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1326000
<bdmurray> created a test case and uploaded T SRU for bug 1326000
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1326000 for trusty
<bdmurray> worked with popey regarding an issue with whoopsie on his phone
<bdmurray> reported whoopsie bug 1328285
<bdmurray> reported errors bug 1328180 regarding stacktrace different from LP and errors
<ubottu> bug 1328285 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "can not find hardware address" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1328285
<ubottu> bug 1328180 in Errors "retraces of unity missing information" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1328180
<bdmurray> modified phased-updater to deal for errors change regarding count
<bdmurray> â done
<doko> - GCC updates
<doko> - cross toolchain updates
<doko> - GCC bug triage
<doko> - openjdk-8 packaging, now building everywhere, still no ppc64el hotspot
<doko> - start packaging ibm-java
<doko> - uploaded GCC and binutils SRU's to the ubuntu-toolchain-r/ppa PPA
<doko> - GCC default change, and reversion, currently trying to figure out the breakage
<doko> (done)
<stgraber> UOS sessions:
<stgraber>  - LXC demo
<stgraber>  - LXC planning
<stgraber>  - system-image for servers
<stgraber>  - LXC demo prep (unpriv containers)
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> LXC:
<stgraber>  - Bunch more bugfixes in preparation for 1.0.4 (hopefully later today or early tomorrow)
<stgraber>  - A lot of side discussions about LXC, libct, libcontainer, docker, ...
<stgraber>    Spending time with the major LXC users and LXC developers to figure out what's
<stgraber>    critical to them, what needs improving to develop a clear plan for LXC 2.0.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Other:
<stgraber>  - Landing team training and landing work on Wednesday
<stgraber>  - Queue reviews
<stgraber> (DONE)
<jodh> * foundations-1305-upstart-work-items:
<jodh>   - cgroup+async support:
<jodh>     - Identified a issue where we were not freeing memory early enough
<jodh>       (working on fix).
<jodh>     - testing on devices.
<jodh>     - Working on lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1302117.
<jodh> â
<slangasek> that 'done' marker looks like a bullet point ;)
<slangasek>  * UOS
<slangasek>  * attended HSA Foundation face-to-face meeting on behalf of Canonical
<slangasek>  * worked on rolling back default gcc/g++ to 4.8, due to not-yet-understood ABI incompatibilities for C++ libraries built with 4.8 vs. 4.9
<slangasek>  * landing team ramp-up
<slangasek>  * reviews of various new partner packages
<slangasek>  * continued discussions about juju in LTS, coming soon to the TB
<slangasek>  * discussions around the cassandra migration
<slangasek> (done)
<mvo> HWE:
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/update-manager/hwe-support-status-ui
<mvo>   add UI for the HWE Stack transition
<mvo> - hangout status meeting
<mvo> - Add --show-replacement-options to hwe-support-status
<mvo> - Upload precise-proposed candidates to ppa:mvo/hwe-eol
<mvo> - work on update-motd
<mvo> apt:
<mvo> - CVE-2014-0478
<mvo> - Bugfix/lp1324399-pty-stdin
<mvo> - Feature/drop-rights
<mvo> - Feature/enum-srcrec allow iterating over all SourceRecords
<mvo> - Fix apt-helper download-file short-description/description
<mvo> - Fix autopkgtest failure in utopic
<mvo> - backport apt-ftparchive srccachedb feature to trusty (in git)
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2014-0478)
<mvo> - backport fixes for #1274466 (ftparchive on disk format changed), #1324399 (apt-get stdin redirect problem)
<mvo> - new utopic upload
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/apt-clone/lp1309447
<mvo> python-apt:
<mvo> - Add config.h style feature test (feature/pyconfigure)
<mvo> - Patch review, ML
<mvo> - Work on feedback from didrocks feature/didrocks
<mvo> aptdaemon:
<mvo> - SRU for #1324833
<mvo> - Upload new version (bzr snapshot)
<mvo> - Debug/fix autopkgtest failure
<mvo> click:
<mvo> - Address review comments from colin
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/fix-jenkins
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/more-integration-tests2
<mvo> misc:
<mvo> - UOS
<mvo> - Lp:~mvo/update-notifier/use-apt-helper  to ensure package-data-downloader uses
<mvo>  the same network settings (proxy etc) as apt
<mvo> - debconf travel preparing
<mvo> (done)
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> (sorry, I had to host a hangout)
<sil2100> - Preparing for UOS
<sil2100> - Help with CI Train bootcamp
<sil2100> - Discussing QA procedures for autopilot failures in smoketesting
<sil2100> - Finishing some unfinished ubuntu-keyboard work (enhance autocomplete, sound setting)
<sil2100> - Working on CI Train bot enhancements
<sil2100> - Preparing commit-log auto generation (discussions and filling in RT)
<sil2100> - Participating in UOS!
<sil2100> - Work on improvements for CI Train (still in progress): auto-m&c, changelog formatting, c
<sil2100> hangelog modifications
<sil2100> - Analyzing test failures visible in smoketesting: assessing actions needed
<sil2100> - Preparation for lucene++ push to Debian
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> cjohnston:
<slangasek> eh
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjohnston> eh
<xnox> blame canada!
<caribou> xnox: don't touch Canada, we're everywhere ;-)
<robru> wow I have 10 million pings this morning. sorry I'm late
<slangasek> caribou: ok, cjwatson isn't here, you're up
<caribou> tried to keep up with UOS : failed
<slangasek> robru!  welcome
<caribou> mostly busy with Qemu/kvm Core dump from custom built sources that causes problem
<caribou> & building a test system
<caribou> (done)
<robru> one sec
<xnox> weekly progress check on the DM
<slangasek> the DM?
<xnox> caribou: hm, did you do step 4 account creation? -> filing the bug report with doing "jetring changeset" the one thing I'm glad I'll never have to do again =)
<caribou> slangasek: Debian Maintainer application
<slangasek> caribou: oh, so xnox is poking you about your DM application? :)
<xnox> aka Debian Maintainer that have PPU =)
<caribou> xnox: I was hoping to, but got sidetrack by *important* things
<caribou> I'm also waiting for some more endorsements for my PPU application
<robru> alright, my turn?
<xnox> caribou: i'm not endorsing your PPU, as I'm one of the people who will be voting on it... =)
<caribou> xnox: yeah, I know, I wasn't waiting for your
<caribou> s
<xnox> caribou: would be cheating to +1 ahead of call for voting
<slangasek> robru: yes, your turn
<robru> * led CI Train bootcamp for barry & stgraber
<robru> * UOS of course
<robru> * been working on a web frontend for a new CI Airline component with fginther and thomi
<robru>  - evaluating JS frameworks
<robru>  - decided tentitively on angular & d3.
<robru> * helping webapps people with some packaging issues
<robru> done
<slangasek> xnox: who says the DMB can't write endorsements?
<slangasek> that's not a conflict of interest
<xnox> slangasek: who says DMB members can't make up the rules they want? e.g. Laney doesn't vote on applications from colleagues on his team at $work =)
<slangasek> robru: thanks
<Laney> what?
<slangasek> bhuey not here
<slangasek> infinity not here
<Laney> I've definitely written endorsements before
<slangasek> barry:
<barry> phone: LP: #1324241.  py3 autopilot ports/updates: dialer-app, mediaplayer-app, messaging-app.  review/discuss with janimo for system-image contribution.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324241 in Ubuntu system image "Collect code coverage" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324241
<barry> debuntu: virtualenv 1.11.6-1, 1.11.6-2. pip 1.5.6-2. flufl.enum 4.0.1-1.  looked at python3.4.1-6 utopic-proposed blockage.
<barry> other: UOS.  discussions w/qa team regarding code coverage collection.  reviewed lp:~xnox/lazr.restfulclient/py3.  reviewed mp for LP: 1170063.  monkeytraining for the ci-train landing team - there's a new banana-eating sheriff in town.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1170063 in Storm "Storm crashes on recent psycopg2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1170063
<xnox> Laney: sure, I'd vote on anyone, but I'd rather not endorse.
<barry> done
<xnox> barry: banana! =)
<mvo> banana?!?
 * xnox loves Despicable Me
<barry> monkey push buttons, monkey get banana
<slangasek> xnox: well, that represents a genuine conflict of interest (though I don't necessarily agree with that method of resolving it); whereas not voting for someone's application just because you also have enough information about their work to endorse them... :)
<mvo> lol
 * mvo hugs barry
<slangasek> xnox: also, you're up :)
<xnox> * Ubuntu Emulator:
<xnox>   - proposed patch for ubuntu-emulator to offer "--recovery" option
<xnox>     for the run command (merged)
<xnox>   - proposed patch to get generic/generic_x86 recovery initramfs
<xnox>     actually bootable (not merged yet)
<barry> mvo: oo oo ah ah
<xnox>   - have a prototype that allows emulator to communicate with the host
<xnox>     and thus trigger shutdown, reboot, reboot recovery.
<xnox>   - proposed a patch to feed IMEI numbers into the emulator's sim
<xnox>     modem
<xnox> * Cross-building:
<xnox>   - succumbed golang to cross-build things that use cgo extensions to
<xnox>     call into c/c++ code
<xnox>   - blog about the same
<xnox>   - submitted patch to upstream to honor PKG_CONFIG environmental
<xnox>     variable
<xnox> * UOS:
<xnox>   - Presented at two sessions. One about getting into Ubuntu
<xnox>     development and the other one about systemd. systemd was really
<xnox>     good one =) long time, no chat with the server team.
<slangasek> barry: what came of the discussions with qa about code coverage collection?  is the path forward understood?
<xnox> * Timeoff:
<xnox>   - I'll be away most of next week. Flying out to Portland on Monday,
<xnox>     returning on Thursday. Working on Friday. I should have
<xnox>     intermittent internet connectivity throughout.
<xnox> ..
<xnox> barry: i wonna hear your stories about being python release manager =)
<xnox> barry: should be more entertaining than landings, no?
<barry> xnox: oh do i have stories
<slangasek> barry: (I saw that the QA weekly report slanderously claims that there's been no progress on system-image QA for 7 weeks, even though they only first talked to us 2 weeks ago ;)
<doko> xnox, he only can apply for 3.6 ...
<barry> slangasek: there have been discussions on the qa list, and i've given my feedback, but i've not seen any definitive decisions, but i suspect i'm not being cc'd on every response.  i am going to help those guys land dependent packages in debian and ubuntu once they identify them, file bugs, and write the blueprint, so they can make progress on writing the prototype
<slangasek> ok
<barry> slangasek: i have no idea why they would say that.  in any case, i do plan on returning to the coverage branch today.  subprocs started through dbus-launch make things interesting
<mvo> barry: yeah, we had similar issues with click
<mvo> barry: not sure if our branch is helpful for you or if its too different in the approaches taken
<barry> mvo: interesting!  let's talk after the meeting
<mvo> barry: yeah, happy to have a look and discuss this
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> any other questions over status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> or anything else, at all? :)
<slangasek> bueller
<slangasek> bueller
<slangasek> (xnox: do you know this reference!)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 12 15:32:51 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-12-15.01.moin.txt
 * bdmurray does
<caribou> slangasek: I do "Life goes so fast, if you don't stop and look around, you may miss it"
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<caribou> slangasek: tahnks
<mvo> thanks
<barry> thanks
<jodh> thanks
<xnox> slangasek: anyone?
<xnox> slangasek: anyone?
<caribou> xnox: "Ferris Bueller's Day off"
<mvo> slangasek: hahaha - you expanded my pop-culture knowledge today
 * mvo just watched the youtube clip
<slangasek> :-)
<mvo> (while waiting for a build to finish of course!)
<xnox> caribou: yeah, "anyone, anyone" is a better clip from that.
 * mvo just typed apt-get install bueller - guess its time to take a break 
<sil2100> Thanks o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-08
<micahg> anyone here for the DMB meeting?
<bdmurray> \o
<micahg> ok, let's start the meeting
<micahg> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  8 15:15:08 2015 UTC.  The chair is micahg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<xnox> si
<xnox> #topic resignation and re-election
<xnox> we have one member of DMB that wants to resign, shall we call a new election to replace one member?
<micahg> #info Welcome to the DMB meeting, this should be a relatively short meeting
<micahg> xnox: we'll get there :)
<micahg> #topic review previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: review previous action items
<xnox> what would the schedule look like for nomintations? and end date of the position? (standard term, or shorter / aligned with normal end date of the member to replace)?
 * xnox jumps the gun, ok, me goes away from keyboard to chill
<micahg> #subtopic Laney get with CC to get the voting rules documented
<micahg> I think we got feedback, but not documented yet
<micahg> so, carried
<micahg> #subtopic cyphermox review Noskcaj application and history and determine his vote
<micahg> this was done
<micahg> I still didn't follow up wtih Noskcaj on his feeedback, so I'll give myself an official action to do so
<micahg> #action micahg to gather feedback on Noskcaj's application
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to gather feedback on Noskcaj's application
<micahg> so, no applications still, I think we'll move to AOB
<micahg> #topic resignation and re-election
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: resignation and re-election
<micahg> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-May/000780.html
<micahg> So, I believe that we'll need a new election to fill ScottK's seat on the DMB, he's agreed to remain on the board until a replacement is found and agrees to serve
<micahg> I believe the election would be for the remainder of Scott's term as he was just elected again 3 months ago
<micahg> would anyone care to volunteer to run the election?
<micahg> ok, then, we'll sort that out later :)
<micahg> #info I think we'll have a 3 week period for nominations, through June 29, and then 2 weeks for the election, through approximately July 13, final details TBD
<micahg> this would be to avoid conflict with various national holiday weekends (at least US) in the coming weeks
<micahg> xnox: ^^ did I miss anything?
<bdmurray> Could we reuse the previous nominees or results?
<micahg> there was only 1 more person before, I think we should try to get at least 2
<bdmurray> Okay
<xnox> bdmurray: if by the end of nomintations we only have one nomination, that person will get appointed without further voting, no?!
<micahg> xnox: I would say that depends on who it is...if it was the last nominee, I would say yes, otherwise, I would think that we'd still run a poll against NOTB
<xnox> ack.
<micahg> ok, I'll send out the call for nominees, if someone else wants to volunteer to run the poll, I'd gladly let them
<micahg> #action micahg to send out call for DMB nominations
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to send out call for DMB nominations
<micahg> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<Laney> I think the CC should document the rules for all teams that haven't decided to deviate themselves
<Laney> can follow up again
<micahg> ok, then, next meeting should be Mon Jun 22 at 19:00 UTC
<micahg> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  8 15:40:20 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-08-15.15.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks all
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> hi!
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  8 16:59:51 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> sorry
<jdstrand> this week I am working on an embargoed issue
<jdstrand> I'm also finishing up the review tools upload that was postponed last week
<jdstrand> tyhicks and I are going to hopefully finish up work planning
<jdstrand> and if it doesn't get bumped again, I'll work on seccomp on upgrades on snappy
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm publishing strongswan as we speak
<mdeslaur> I'm working on more embargoed issues this week
<mdeslaur> and if I have time, I'll pick something else up from the CVE list
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week.
<sbeattie> I'm still hip deep in reviewing apparmor patches trying to get to a point to release 2.10
<sbeattie> I need to push on getting the trusty apparmor SRU through, and will probably be preparing another SRU for bug 1460152
<ubottu> bug 1460152 in Snappy "apparmor cache not updated when apparmor.d rules change (breaks 15.04/stable -> 15.04/edge updates)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1460152
<sbeattie> That'll probably consume most of my time this week
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up.
<tyhicks> sbeattie: what's the hold up on the trusty SRU?
<tyhicks> testing?
<sbeattie> yeah, verifying some of the bug reports
<sbeattie> I need to report on the testing that I've done as well.
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> I'm in the community role this week
<tyhicks> my plans are:
<tyhicks> ubuntu-core-launcher merge proposal reviews
<tyhicks> return to the patch updates
<tyhicks> add kernel keyring mediation support to !AppArmor parser
<tyhicks> AppArmor patch review and revise one of my patches so we can wrap up the 2.10 release
<tyhicks> embargoed items
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> finish up anything needed around bug 1460152, currently the patch is untested against the 2.9 code base.
<jjohansen> prepare for the apparmor monthly meeting, well and a couple of other meetings this week
<ubottu> bug 1460152 in Snappy "apparmor cache not updated when apparmor.d rules change (breaks 15.04/stable -> 15.04/edge updates)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1460152
<jjohansen> prepare for the apparmor monthly meeting, well and a couple of other meetings this week
<jjohansen> I've got to finish up patch review around the latest dconf patches
<jjohansen> finish getting together the pull requests for bug 1430546
<ubottu> bug 1430546 in linux (Ubuntu) "apparmor kernel BUG kills firefox" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1430546
<jjohansen> hopefully get another round of review on the policy cache loading patchset
<jjohansen> that would be for 2.10
<jjohansen> and get back to upstream cleanup work
<jjohansen> oh and the next round of kernels should hit this week, so the USNs around that
<jjohansen> thats it for me sarnold, you're up
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week, I'll return to focussing on openstack updates, and might do some apparmor patch reviews or sru testing for a change of scenery
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson ?
<chrisccoulson> I'll hopefully be testing chromium this week and getting that out
<chrisccoulson> I've got a bunch of branches to review for Oxide too
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I intend to get bug 1428754 finished (I landed a bunch of changes last week in preparation for this)
<ubottu> bug 1428754 in Oxide "Persist permission request decisions for a session" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1428754
<chrisccoulson> And then I'll be picking off more bugs from https://launchpad.net/oxide/+milestone/branch-1.9
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bozohttpd.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/passenger.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ufraw.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ipsec-tools.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/unrtf.html
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  8 17:23:56 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-08-16.59.moin.txt
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-09
<elacheche> o/
<zul> i guess im running the meeting right?
<arosales> Hello
 * arosales looks @ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<arges> o/
<kickinz1> o/
<arosales> zul, and looks like I am up next
<matsubara> o/
<coreycb> o./
<zul> ugh
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  9 16:01:30 2015 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<zul> #topic  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> whoot it works
<zul> nothing in the agenda
<zul> #topic W Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: W Development
<zul> smoser are you heere?
<smoser> here.
<smoser> hm..
<zul> do you want to take this one?
<smoser> surel
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> it appears that we are actually nearing Alpha-1.
<smoser> please take a gander at blueprints. / get  blueprints in shape
<smoser> and please be using wily.
<zul> yeah maybe i should be upgrading
<smoser> expect that it works. file bugs if it does not, throw tomatos in zul's direction
<rharper> \o
<zul> no...melons better
<zul> smoser: anything else?
<smoser> lets move on.
<zul> favorite words
<zul> #topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: : Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<zul> caribou around?
<caribou> zul: nothing on my side for this week
<zul> beisner: any bugs to raise?
<zul> any questions for caribou?
<zul> ...
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<zul> hi matsubara any updates?
<matsubara> Hey there, I followed up with fginther on #ci about some of the trusty smoke tests failing
<matsubara> He's going to check that and have it fixed
<matsubara> I'll keep on it until that's fixed. That's all from me.
<matsubara> thanks zul
<zul> ok cool...any questions for matsubara
<zul> ...
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<zul> smb around?
<smb> An additional note for smoser on bug 1462530. So I cannot really
<smb> make out anything going wrong at the time of boot for which you
<smb> had the console log. There is a fs corruption but that may exist
<smb> from the provisioning run. Would it be possible to go back to a
<smb> log from that if you encounter the boot hang?
<ubottu> bug 1462530 in linux (Ubuntu) "multipath errors on vivid and wily kernel?" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462530
<zul> smoser: ^^^
<smb> We could move on and just leave it in the records
<zul> any questions for smb?
<zul> ...
<zul> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> linuxcon and plumbers in august
<zul> anything else on the horizon?
<zul> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> floor is yours for discussion
<zul> anything to bring up?
<zul> ok then..
<zul> same time next week
<zul> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  9 16:13:13 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-09-16.01.moin.txt
<kickinz1> Thanks Zul!
<matsubara> Thanks zul
<caribou> thanks zul
<rbasak> Thank you zul!
<arosales> thanks zul for chairing
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  9 17:00:11 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Wily
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<kamal> o/
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<henrix> o/
<smb> o\
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased wily to 4.0.5 and have uploaded to the archive.  We are
<ogasawara> investigating a build failure for ppc64el, but the other arch's appear
<ogasawara> to be building cleanly.  Please test and let us know your results.  We
<ogasawara> will move to start tracking 4.1 on our master-next branch.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs June 25 - Alpha 1 (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs July 30 - Alpha 2 (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-cves.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Vivid  - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 23-May through 13-Jun
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          22-May   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 24-May - 30-May   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 31-May - 13-Jun   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  9 17:03:20 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-09-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<cking> ditto
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-11
<infinity> o/
<barry> \o
<pitti> o/
<caribou> o/
 * stgraber waves
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> \o
<sil2100> o/
<robru> ahoihoi
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 11 15:01:59 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
 * sil2100 still prepares his notes
 * jodh feels the irony of mumble choosing to play up today of all days.
<pitti> I greeted in mumble, but I've never heard anyone else speak
<pitti> admittedly I just dusted it off after not using it for a year or more
<slangasek> welcome, pitti :)
 * pitti waves to his new team mates
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
 * slangasek fixes up his shuf command
<doko> hopefully pitti remembers short status updates, and doesn't compete with jodh ;p
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti)
<slangasek> doko barry stgraber pitti cyphermox infinity sil2100 caribou jodh bdmurray slangasek robru
<pitti> TBH I haven't prepared anything, I don't know yet how your meeting looks like
<slangasek> doko: you can show him how it's done
<sil2100> Phew, still some time...
<slangasek> pitti: summarize the past week's work (and upcoming week's plans) in the channel; ask questions about others' activity as appropriate; then any other discussion topics
<doko> - verified SRU's for trusty, gcc-4.8 and binutils
<doko> - investigate ARM gcc ICE
<doko> - looking at binutils issue building the kernel on ppc64el
<doko> - look into building GCC binaries and libraries with -z relro
<doko> - fix cantor build failures, autopkg test fixes
<doko> - installing a new toy, which arrived today (tp x250, 16gb ram, two ssd's)
<doko> (done)
<infinity> Yay, toys.
<barry> debuntu: boatloads of uploads: nose2_0.5.0-2, flufl.bounce_2.3-2, flufl.lock_2.3.1-2, lazr.config_2.1-1 (and debian bug #786516), python-daemon_2.0.5-1 (review & sponsored), zope.schema_4.4.2-2, cov-core_1.15.0-1, python-iso8601_0.1.10-2, lazr.delegates_2.0.2-1, lazr.smtptest_2.0.3-1, pytest-instafail_0.3.0-1, zope.contenttype_4.1.0-1, zope.browser_2.1.0-1, zope.exceptions_4.0.7-2, zope.component_4.2.2-1, zope.event_4.0.3-3,
<barry> zope.testing_4.2.0-1, zope.hookable_4.0.4-4, zope.deprecation_4.1.2-1, zope.configuration_4.0.3-3, zope.location_4.0.3-2, zope.i18nmessageid_4.0.3-2, debian bug #776026 (reproducible wheel files; mp upstream, needs refinement), debian bug #788383 (better devendorization for requests - tested upstream patch in debian package), singledispatch_3.4.0.3-2, gtimelog_0.9.2-1, LP: #1324391.  also, dist-upgrade bisected wily regression and
<barry> reported LP: #1462398
<ubottu> Debian bug 786516 in python-lazr.config-doc "python-lazr.config-doc contains pybuild files" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/786516
<ubottu> Debian bug 776026 in src:wheel "wheel: please make whl files reproducible" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/776026
<ubottu> Debian bug 788383 in python-requests "python-requests: Better devendorization" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/788383
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324391 in python-pip (Ubuntu Trusty) "pip 1.5.4 import an invalid dependencies " [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324391
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1462398 in xorg-server (Ubuntu) "wily boot is completely frozen" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462398
<barry> si: LP: #1463061.  also reviewed and landed s-i server branch for sil2100 (LP: #1459371).  general s-i server work and start of documentation.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1463061 in Ubuntu system image "Please report errors via --progress as well" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1463061
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1459371 in Canonical System Image "The channel ubuntu-touch/rc/bq-aquaris.en for device vegetahd appears to have no delta images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1459371
<barry> other: python issue #24351 (string.Template)
<barry> upcoming: among other things, i'll be starting to work on the python3.5 transition plan
<barry> --done--
<stgraber>  - Was out Friday and Wednesday, will be out tomorrow too. Back to normal on Monday.
<stgraber>  - LXC/LXD
<stgraber>    - Released LXD 0.11 on Tuesday, uploaded to archive, PPAs, ...
<stgraber>    - Tracking down what looks like a regression in Go 1.4 (breaks LXD over unix socket)
<stgraber>    - Code reviews, bug triaging, other admin paperwork
<stgraber> (done)
<pitti> (just scribbled together in a hurry, not that much detail)
<pitti> DONE: land systemd 220, fix umockdev and python-dbusmock to work with it, fix some fallout bugs and reverse test regressions
<pitti> DONE: new psql microreleases for all supported releases
<pitti> DONE: boot related bug triage/fixes
<pitti> DONE: research/refine proposal for persistant network interface names, send to (u|d)-devel
<pitti> PLAN: want to land ^ (ifnames) next week
<pitti> PLAN: start integration of ifup.d scripts into networkd (core-1505-networkd-vs-ifupdown)
<pitti> [done]
<slangasek> cyphermox is off this week
<slangasek> infinity:
<infinity> - Kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity> - General SRU/AA stuff
<infinity> - Reviewed and accepted the X HWE stack
<infinity> - Started looking into 14.04->14.04 upgrade bug (LP: #1452238)
<infinity> - Looking at weird tzdata/tzcode bug with Marc (LP: #1462052)
<infinity> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1452238 in apt (Ubuntu) "Failed to upgrade system from 14.04" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452238
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1462052 in glibc (Ubuntu) "timezone handling regression in glibc 2.21" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462052
<sil2100> uh, me I guess?
<sil2100> - Shorter week due to holidays on Tue/Fri
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Short Patch Pilot session:
<sil2100>   * libg15, uploading new version with a patch for suspend/resume
<sil2100>   * Looking into the udisks2 SRU request - confusing
<sil2100>   * libusb - reviewing a patch, preparing for upload (waiting for a test case)
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings and discussions
<sil2100> - Quickfix - preparing the snapshot PPA for OTA-4 due to missing auto-PPA-snapshotting
<sil2100> - Quickfix - helping out with langpack manual updates
<sil2100> - Preparing an OTA-4 exclusive image in 14.09-factory-proposed (with issues)
<sil2100> - CI Train fix for no syncs for non-train packages
<sil2100> - A quick style-fix for S-I server branch for delta generation
<sil2100> - Work on re-writing commitlog code to work with new channels
<sil2100>   * Re-writing everything, making it better and independent of any external scripts
<sil2100> - Documentation changes and updates
<sil2100> - Starting the discussion related to overlay vs. derived-distro once again
<sil2100> - Helping out upstreams with packaging issues and FTBFS
<sil2100> (done)
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou>   - Ceph interference during kdump-tools execution (Bug: 1461429)
<ubottu> bug 1461429 in ceph (Ubuntu Trusty) "ceph-osd early start interferes with kdump-tools during kernel dump" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1461429
<caribou>     * Uploaded upstart job for kdump-tools to Debian/Sid
<caribou>     * Will SRU to Trusty once in Wily
<caribou>   - rsyslog merge
<caribou>   - Identified spotify-client bug on Wily
<caribou> (done)
<jodh> * snappy - selftests.
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>   - Out Wednesday PM.
<jodh>   - My last meeting evar today :(
<jodh> ???
 * pitti hugs jodh
<bdmurray> continued to work on improvements to apport-retrace to check launchpad for packages not available in archive or on ddebs.u.c
<bdmurray> testing of apport-retrace which uses LP with sample crashes
<bdmurray> testing apport-retrace with an overlay-ppa package crash
<bdmurray> daisy r646 - Move package origin check into daisy/utils.py and set packages from the ci-train-ppa-service to retraceable.
<bdmurray> fixed a daisy crash when writing retrace failure reasons
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have staging / production versions of daisy updated
<bdmurray> updated fetch-crashes to delete existing crash files before getting new ones to submit
<bdmurray> reported apport bug (LP: #1462469) regarding sandboxutil.py exiting 0 instead of 1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1462469 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-retrace strangely exits with 0 return code" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462469
<bdmurray> reported apport bug LP: #1462491 (stacktrace source often has errors)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1462491 in apport (Ubuntu) "StacktraceSource contains errors instead of source code" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462491
<bdmurray> sorted out issues with my canonistack setup (downed hosts)
<bdmurray> â done
<infinity> jodh: I like your optimism, but I suspect you have many meetings in your future, just not with us. :P
<slangasek> infinity: bug #1452238 - are you on top of this, then?  jdstrand escalated it to me this morning, should I assign to you?
<ubottu> bug 1452238 in apt (Ubuntu) "Failed to upgrade system from 14.04" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452238
<slangasek> sil2100: has the delta generation branch landed on nusakan?
<sil2100> slangasek: not sure, it got merged I think but not sure if anyone bzr pulled it in yet
<infinity> slangasek: Yeah, assign it to me, I'll spend some time today experimenting.
<slangasek> sil2100: ok; can you remind me the bug number?
<slangasek> infinity: ok, thanks
<barry> it did get merged
<barry> sil2100, slangasek trunk should have the fix now
 * barry does not have access to nusakan
<sil2100> slangasek: LP: #1459371
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1459371 in Canonical System Image "The channel ubuntu-touch/rc/bq-aquaris.en for device vegetahd appears to have no delta images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1459371
<sil2100> I can bzr pull it
<sil2100> The importer is off so it should be safe
<slangasek>  * various system-image server management tasks; first ubuntu-personal channel is now being set up
<slangasek>  * planning team conference attendance for the summer
<slangasek>  * discussions around juju go requirements
<slangasek>  * discussions about python3.5 as default for 15.10
<slangasek>  * uploads of some python3 transitions that were fix-committed (update-notifier, xdiagnose, gconf)
<slangasek>  * new version of SecureBoot shim signed and uploaded to wily; will be SRUed back to all releases once it's gotten some burn-in testing
<slangasek>  * various bits of work related to team changes
<slangasek> (done)
<barry> sil2100: once you pull it, can you close the Canonical System Image bug task and fix release the Ubuntu system image one?
<robru> * CI Train Mojo Spec:
<robru>  - defined new postgres instance for bileto
<robru>  - various iterations integrating postgres into train spec.
<robru> * Bileto:
<robru>  - added postgres support, several iterations thereof
<robru>  - added API token support so jenkins can push status updates in
<robru> * Bileto charm:
<robru>  - generate API token at deploy time
<robru>  - change bileto from running as root to running as www-data
<slangasek> sil2100: well the importer needs to not be off for very long, so I'm not sure that matters to safety ;)
<robru>  - Implement db-relation-changed hook so bileto can connect to postgres, and several iterations to get that working
<robru> * CI Train:
<robru>  - coordinated with #webops on emergency production redeployment in ps4.5, verified various deployment details before approving DNS cutover; identified various firewall issues and reported them to #webops for fixing.
<robru>  - fixed charm to correctly report rsyncd port opening so #webops won't need to cowboy the firewall in the future.
<robru> * systemd-shim:
<slangasek> sil2100: did you pull it just now?  the branch is currently up to date
<sil2100> slangasek: yes
<sil2100> slangasek: I didn't enable the importer yet as I asked a question on -ci-eng ;)
<pitti> robru: oh, are you now working on systemd-shim?
<sil2100> e.g. if I enable the importer now and make the channel automatic, it will probably pull in the snapshot rootfs, right?
<robru> pitti: no, it was just a one-off thing.
<slangasek> sil2100: let's leave it disabled for now until we can discuss it after the meeting
<sil2100> ACK
<pitti> robru: (you might have missed to c&p a line or two); thanks, I was just curious
<slangasek> robru: was '* systemd-shim:' the end?
<robru> slangasek: no I pasted more than that, I don't know why it didn't come through, hang on
<robru> 08:16:37 <robru> * systemd-shim:
<robru> 08:16:37 <robru>  - fixed version conflict between vivid stable-phone-overlay and wily archive due to buggy train sync
<robru> 08:16:37 <robru> (done)
<robru> pitti: the systemd-shim thing was just me cleaning up a broken version number caused by the train
<slangasek> ok
<bdmurray> robru: was a search done for other issues like that?
<robru> bdmurray: not by me. presumably slangasek did since he found this issue in the first place
<slangasek> robru: no, I found it because bdmurray told me about it ;)
<bdmurray> lol
<robru> awesome
<slangasek> a search, by someone who can manipulate the launchpad api better than me, would be: look at all packages in the stable-phone-overlay ppa; find packages of the same name and version in the main archive; check if they're the same
<slangasek> robru: do you want to take a shot at doing that search?
<slangasek> (after the train has been fixed to disable any further broken syncs)
<sil2100> The fix is approved
<robru> slangasek: I guess I could poke at that
<robru> slangasek: yeah sil2100's fix is good
<slangasek> robru: thanks
<slangasek> any other questions re: status this week?
<sil2100> I still want to give it a spin in the staging maybe, and maybe some small style changes as per robru's comments (didn't have time for those yet)
<robru> sil2100: I don't think it really needs staging, your test coverage was so thorough I'm quite confident in it
<robru> also it's a simple change
<sil2100> Yeah, ok, then maybe just those small changes, I'll be done in a minute, just need to finish up all the other strange things
<slangasek> [TOPIC] conferences
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: conferences
<slangasek> as I mentioned, I'm in the process of sorting out conference travel for the next few months
<slangasek> if you're expecting to attend a conference this summer and I haven't already talked to you about it, you might want to ping me to make sure it's on my radar
<pitti> slangasek: FTR, I told msm that I don't go to plumber's (i. e. cancel/transfer my registration), and attend debconf instead (already self-registered)
<slangasek> pitti: ok - I'll double-check that this is reflected in the SpreadSheetsOfTravel
<slangasek> [TOPIC] team changes
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: team changes
<pitti> slangasek: I updated the debconf spreadsheet, I didn't see the plumbers one
<slangasek> you may have noticed a few changes in the meeting attendance (current and impending)
<infinity> slangasek: It was suggested by the powers that be in glibc that I should be at GNU Tools Cauldron, but no idea if it's full already.
<slangasek> we bid a fond farewell to jodh today
<slangasek> we wish him well in his next endeavors
<barry> jodh: good luck and keep in touch!
<slangasek> there will be a brief reception in the lobby outside the IRC channel after this meeting
<slangasek> cookies and punch etc
 * pitti orders a virtual beer for jodh and everyone else
<slangasek> also, you may have noticed that mvo is changing roles within Canonical
<infinity> pitti's buying for everyone?  I like this guy.
<doko> virtually ...
<infinity> doko: Shh, don't ruin the fantasy.  In my mind, I'm already drunk.
<jodh> slangasek: thanks steve! I've enjoyed my time in the team enormously, and will truly miss infinity's jokes :)
<slangasek> with the recent reorg, there's now a Snappy team being stood up formally, and mvo has a role to play on that team
<barry> infinity: that explains a lot
<slangasek> jodh: he tells jokes!?
<jodh> slangasek: buy him a beer and he does anything... I heard...
<infinity> jodh: Just remember: never try on pants when doko's in the same city.
<ogra_> *anything* !
<doko> ogra hears beer and wakes up ...
<ogra_> +1
<ogra_> i highlight on "beer" (and double highlight on "free beer" )
<slangasek> so unfortunately this means mvo will not be with us in Foundations anymore, since being the Snappy team tech lead is a full-time gig - this is basically formalization of the role he's already been playing on the Snappy side for the past few months
<jodh> infinity: I will pass on this good advice down the generations.
<infinity> jodh: Good man.
<slangasek> on the other hand, we have a pitti!
<doko> ohh, does pitti join MIR again then? ;-P
<infinity> Yeah, and pitti showed up to the meeting.  mvo didn't even come to let us say goodbye.  Boo.
<slangasek> the https://launchpad.net/~we-love-pitti and https://launchpad.net/~canonical-foundations will be officially merged, more details to follow
<slangasek> oh wait, that part may not be exactly true
<pitti> I tried to forget about w-l-p..
<stgraber> :)
<slangasek> what's with the team icon? I don't remember that picture being there :)
<infinity> pitti: They have meetings every fortnight, with candles and chanting.
<barry> https://youtu.be/FsTalWYX0t8?t=38s
 * jodh hands the flaming unicode batton to pitti and hopes he'll keep the tradition alive!
<doko> ugh, does everybody have to have groopies to work in foundations?
<pitti> slangasek: ah, I think that was from the party night in Kopenhagen, no?
<infinity> doko: Clearly not, since you work here.
<slangasek> pitti: it looks like it - I just don't remember that picture being on there and it's too small to get a good look :)
<pitti> jodh: you still need to reveal that secret to me, barry was already pointing that out!
<slangasek> anyway
<slangasek> lots of changes to the team, all at a sudden!
<sil2100> Oh, I wasn't aware of the we-love-pitti team!
 * sil2100 needs to subscribe
 * jodh grabs a fresh batch of rubber chickens and sharpens his leatherman in preparation...
<slangasek> if anyone has questions about these changes, "my door is open"
<robru> sil2100: I've been in that one for a while, lol
<pitti> jodh: I'll get the hemp and cauldron
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> not your usual quiet Foundations meeting today ;)
<sil2100> Indeed ;)
<slangasek> but is there anything else anyone wants to cover?
<slangasek> going...
<slangasek> going...
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 11 15:42:20 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-11-15.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> gnoe
<slangasek> eh
<slangasek> gone
<barry> thanks!
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<caribou> thanks!
<sil2100> o/
<pitti> vbeer waiting!
<jodh> thanks all!!!!!!!
<stgraber> thanks!
<fernando28> hola
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-12
<howefield_afk> [3~
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-14
<Mikaela> I think the calendar link is missing s from the end in /topic
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-14
<jgrimm> o/
<rharper> \o
<rbasak> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<zul> heylo
<jgrimm> howdy zul
<nacc> o/
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 14 16:01:13 2016 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<zul> so lets get on with it
<zul> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> any action points from the previous meeting?
<rbasak> None were minuted.
<zul> if not moving on
<zul> #topic Development Release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Development Release
<zul> so yakkety is on going, does someone want to take this topic?
<rbasak> Sync and merge time. I think that's all, unless anyone else has anything to discuss on this topic?
<jgrimm> i'd like to get an update on the importer at some point in the meeting
<zul> well now would be a good time then;)
<rbasak> It probably fits this topic the best I think.
<jgrimm> perfect. nacc, rbasak^^
<nacc> sure
 * rbasak defers to nacc
<nacc> not too many updates to the importer itself in the past week
<nacc> I found one bug with the resuming of interrupted imports
<smoser> o/
<nacc> (which happens with launchpad timeouts periodically in my experience)
<nacc> otherwise, it seems to be mostly working for the import case
<nacc> rbasak and I have been discussing how best to get the tooling to do what we want for the git workflow at this point
<nacc> barry from foundations did find one issue with gitpython that exists upstream due to a non-UTF8 in a historical changelog
<rbasak> I think from an importer perspective we're doing very well.
<nacc> he's planning on sending a patch to catch that and a few other things he's found
<nacc> otherwise, the importer is stable as of right now
<rbasak> A final piece is to make sure the importer works well against a branch an uploader pushes, to close the loop.
<jgrimm> ok, its safe to use?
<rbasak> LP MPs seem to work well too.
<nacc> i'm still working on the wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging/GitWorkflow)
<jgrimm> that is for real work, or still consider it testing phase?
<rbasak> From what I've seen it's good for real work, though I have a pretty small sample size so far.
<nacc> same here
<rbasak> Closing the loop isn't necessary - if the importer doesn't pick up the tree from an upload, no big deal IMHO.
<nacc> if we never push the upload/ tags to usdi for now, then the importer will just import the new publish later
<rbasak> That shouldn't block progress.
<nacc> right
<jgrimm> ok, yes.. we know we'll still hit corner cases.
<jgrimm> thanks!
<zul> ok anything else?
<rbasak> So, I guess that means that we'd like everyone to continue asking us for imports as needed.
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, dpdk update?
<jgrimm> rbasak, i'll send a few import requests later today
<nacc> ask on the ubuntu-server list, please :)
<jgrimm> nacc, ack
<zul> ok moving on
<jgrimm> k
<zul> #topic  Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<rbasak> I would like to bring up bug 1560939.
<ubottu> bug 1560939 in libvirt (Ubuntu) "libvirt-bin fails to install on a fresh xenial server" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1560939
<cpaelzer> sorry busy with rharper and smoser at the same time
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, no worries.
<cpaelzer> dpdk TL;DR update - we have sane libraries now
<rbasak> I marked it Critical because if it is a regression as was suggested in the bug, then it's important.
<cpaelzer> we have a dpdk 16.04 ppa at https://launchpad.net/~paelzer/+archive/ubuntu/dpdk-merge-16.04/+packages now
 * jgrimm looks at rbasak bug
<rbasak> But it isn't clear to me if it is valid or not, especially given the most recent comments.
<cpaelzer> next dpdk related steps are around getting OpenvSwitch work with it
<rbasak> smb (not here) did ask me by email about the "-d" switch.
<nacc> rbasak: seems like a nova-compute bug (implicitly)
<rbasak> jamespage: any opinion please?
<nacc> rbasak: in that nova-compute modified the libvirt-bin defaults, and then ... the user never noticed/knew to revert it, unsure
<rbasak> I'd like to get this triaged at least, to eliminate it looking so dire if it isn't.
<jamespage> that was related to an older charm version - that has been fixed
<jamespage> the original bug was charm related - not sure about the most recent comments
<zul> so anything ele?
<rbasak> jamespage: so what should the status of the bug be?
<nacc> rbasak: it feels like two independent bugs on my re-read; the first was the locales issue
<jamespage> invalid imho
<nacc> then other users got bit by this libvirt-bin default issue, that was unrelated to the locales one, but had the same effect
<zul> ...
<rbasak> nacc: are any of your two independent bugs valid, in your opinion? Or would they both be Invalid?
<nacc> i think the first is fix-release (via locales update)
<nacc> based also upon rharper's comments
<nacc> the second is invalid based upon jamespage's comments (aiui)
<rbasak> OK, thanks. If everyone's happy with that, I'll update the bug.
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (tbd)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (tbd)
<zul> hi tbd
<zul> oh wait..
<powersj> o/
<jgrimm> nice! hi powersj
<powersj> howdy
<cpaelzer> hi++ powersj
<jgrimm> powersj, will be starting the first week of july.
<jgrimm> zul, nothing else for now on QA
<rbasak> powersj: welcome!
<powersj> thx
<zul> ok cool
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<jgrimm> sprinting i believe
<cpaelzer> they should have entered social time already or soon
<zul> bunch of drunks
<zul> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Upcoming Call For Papers
<nacc> heh
<zul> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jgrimm> not seeing anything interesting on lwn CFP page
<jgrimm> ditto
<zul> any upcoming events?
<zul> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> chat amongst yourselves
<cpaelzer> CFP related - https://www.opnfv.org/news-faq/events/2016-06-20/2016-opnfv-summit anybody ?
<cpaelzer> deadlines passed, but I'd be interested if anybody will be there
<zul> i guess not
<zul> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 14 16:21:45 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-14-16.01.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> rbasak: bug talk ?
<jgrimm> doh
<rbasak> Yeah, I was waiting for that.
<rbasak> zul: there are a couple more topics in the agenda.
<rbasak> Never mind, we'll just do that here now.
<jgrimm> yeah, no worries.  thanks zul
<rbasak> OK, so let's pretend #topic Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)
<rbasak> Can I get progress updates first please, and then I'll assign new bugs?
<rbasak> cpaelzer: bug 1507681, bug 1495988, bug 1581839, bug 1524526
<ubottu> bug 1507681 in psmisc (Ubuntu Precise) "killall with 65 arguments kills more than expected" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507681
<ubottu> bug 1495988 in apache2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "ProxyErrorOverride leads to slow 404 responses" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495988
<ubottu> bug 1581839 in clamav (Ubuntu Xenial) "package clamdscan 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu4 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man1/clamdscan.1.gz', which is also in package clamav-daemon 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu0.14.04.1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1581839
<ubottu> bug 1524526 in dovecot (Ubuntu Xenial) "Crashes with undefined symbol" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524526
<rbasak> jgrimm: bug 1397250
<ubottu> bug 1397250 in libnss-ldap (Ubuntu) "SIGPIPE not caught in do_atfork_child()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397250
<rbasak> nacc: bug 1524635, bug 1570472, bug 1553563, bug 1570923
<ubottu> bug 1524635 in haproxy (Ubuntu Trusty) "haproxy syslog configuration causes double logging" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524635
<ubottu> bug 1570472 in puppet (Ubuntu) "Set systemd as default service provider" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570472
<ubottu> bug 1553563 in bacula (Ubuntu) "bconsole to Bacula Director fails with authorization problem message" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1553563
<ubottu> bug 1570923 in bacula (Ubuntu Xenial) "bacula-dir won't start with "undefined symbol: mysql_init"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570923
<rbasak> rharper: bug 1384503, bug 1491406, bug 1472639
<ubottu> bug 1384503 in rsync (Ubuntu Trusty) "rsync fails on large files with compression" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384503
<ubottu> bug 1491406 in augeas (Ubuntu Trusty) "augeas-lenses-1.2.0 - NagiosCfg lens broken for /etc/nagios.cfg due to spaces" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491406
<ubottu> bug 1472639 in openldap (Ubuntu) "apparmor profile denied for kerberos: /run/.heim_org.h5l.kcm-socket" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472639
<rbasak> magicalChicken isn't here, so I'll ask him for an update in #ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> rbasak, i started looking at it.   unfortunately the upstream bugzilla is down.. need some test recreate info from there.
<rbasak> jgrimm: OK, thanks
<rharper> bug 1384503 , updated description with current status, including statement on request for reproducing data from affected users.
<jgrimm> rbasak, i sent the upstream an email to let them know their bugzilla was down
<nacc> rbasak: re: 1524635, can be taken off the list, waiting for a response from submitter for testing via ppa
<nacc> rbasak: re: 1570472, i've sort of handed-off to sdeziel, who is working on getting yakkety fixed, so we can properly SRU
<rbasak> nacc: 635> OK, thanks. I suggest that you unassign yourself, mark back as Triaged or Incomplete or something with a comment.
<nacc> rbasak: re: 1553563 1570923, i've prioritized php over bacula to get 16.10 cleaned up. So i'd recommend reassignment for now
<nacc> rbasak: will do
<rharper> bug 1491406 is fixed release on devel, SRU pending on trusty, sponsors subscribed, uploaded to proposed queue,
<ubottu> bug 1491406 in augeas (Ubuntu Trusty) "augeas-lenses-1.2.0 - NagiosCfg lens broken for /etc/nagios.cfg due to spaces" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491406
<rharper> bug 1472639, untouched, will poke at it this week.
<ubottu> bug 1472639 in openldap (Ubuntu) "apparmor profile denied for kerberos: /run/.heim_org.h5l.kcm-socket" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472639
<rbasak> nacc: 472> same - please unassign so it's clear
<nacc> rbasak: ack
<cpaelzer> 1581839 Waiting for Review/Sponsoring
<cpaelzer> 1495988 Waiting for Review/Sponsoring
<cpaelzer> 1524526 will be a merge + dropping the failing plugin (my first shot at the importer)
<cpaelzer> 1507681 Waiting in proposed for the reporter to verify
<cpaelzer> 1588690 I mentioned last week turned out to be tar now behaving as it should since 1.22 (no bug other than if you use it wrong as dpdk did)
<cpaelzer> am I dead or netsplit or something - you see me?
<rbasak> rharper: 406> what's the plan with SRU verification? Will you do that or should we just leave it to the reporter?
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, i see you
<rbasak> rharper: 503> I've marked as cleared. Thanks!
<rbasak> cpaelzer: I see you. Sorry, just working my way down so I don't miss updates.
<cpaelzer> rbasak: totally fine and a good approach - just wondered as I saw no update at all
<rharper> rbasak: 406, I can verify; added to my list
 * rbasak is still catching up on cpaelzer's updates, sorry
<rbasak> cpaelzer: that all looks good, thanks. I take it bug 1588690 I can treat as cleared?
<ubottu> bug 1588690 in tar (Debian) "Tar fails to --exclude files" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588690
<cpaelzer> we need a spinning wheel or hourglass symbol for you :-)
<cpaelzer> yes 690 is cleared
<cpaelzer> even in dpdk packaging, related debian bug and upstream with tar mailing list
<rbasak> OK, thank you all for the updates.
<cpaelzer> thanks you for all the hoursekeeping on them
<rbasak> Good news - nothing in the my list has been dormant for over week. That's notable progress for the process - thank you all.
<jgrimm> \o/
<rbasak> Next, new assignments
<rbasak> These are all higher priority than the "ramping up" bugs. I think they generally impact (or may impact) Xenial.
<rbasak> There are nacc's unassigned bacula bugs due to his PHP priority, and few new ones.
<rbasak> Five in all.
<rbasak> bug 1585771, bug 1519120, bug 1590688, bug 1553563, bug 1570923.
<ubottu> bug 1585771 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "Automatic security upgrades are always enabled" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1585771
<ubottu> bug 1519120 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Xenial: VLAN interfaces don't work until after a reboot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1519120
<ubottu> bug 1590688 in clamav (Ubuntu) "clamav-daemon doesn't start after installation" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1590688
<ubottu> bug 1553563 in bacula (Ubuntu) "bconsole to Bacula Director fails with authorization problem message" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1553563
<ubottu> bug 1570923 in bacula (Ubuntu Xenial) "bacula-dir won't start with "undefined symbol: mysql_init"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570923
<cpaelzer> rbasak: as I just was at clamav I'd take this one
<rbasak> cpaelzer: thanks!
<cpaelzer> rbasak: but this time really don't expect me to work on it before next week - just as heads up
<rbasak> OK
<rbasak> For 771, cyphermox assigned himself but I'd like someone to drive from the server end - just coordinating to make sure it doesn't get lost.
<rbasak> rharper: any capacity? I'd prefer you looked at any of these new ones over bug 1472639
<ubottu> bug 1472639 in openldap (Ubuntu) "apparmor profile denied for kerberos: /run/.heim_org.h5l.kcm-socket" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472639
<rbasak> jgrimm: this may be our first overflow - stuff that I think need looking at very soon, but no capacity available.
<nacc> rbasak: depending on how much of the php stuff goes through now that i've unstuck phpunit, i might be able to get to bacula
<nacc> rbasak: i'll try and let you know by EOD (and i'll make sure the bug assignments reflect htat)
<rbasak> nacc: thanks
<jgrimm> rbasak, yup
<rbasak> I think for these maybe leave them unassigned (both in LP and my spreadsheet) so that the first available person can take them?
<rbasak> If anyone has capacity open up, please let me know.
<rbasak> I guess that's all from me then. Thanks all!
<jgrimm> rbasak, thanks
<nacc> thank you rbasak !
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-15
<jamespage> o/
<tinwood> \o
<jamespage> hmm so
<jamespage> lets see I'm chair
<gnuoy> \o
<thedac> o/
<jamespage> why can't I find the instructions?
<gnuoy> jamespage, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/OpenStackCharmsMeeting
<jamespage> gnuoy, ta
<gnuoy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/OSIRCCommands
<gnuoy> as well
<jamespage> #startmeeting OpenStack Charms
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 15 17:01:54 2016 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | OpenStack Charms Meeting | Current topic:
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | OpenStack Charms Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<coreycb> o/
<jamespage> gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<gnuoy> err yes, well we're still here
<gnuoy> defer, defer !
<jamespage> lol - carried
 * tinwood lol
<thedac> :)
<jamespage> #action gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<meetingology> ACTION: gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<jamespage> #topic State of Development for next Charm Release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | OpenStack Charms Meeting | Current topic: State of Development for next Charm Release
<gnuoy> HA support in layers landed, SSL support iminent
<jamespage> \o/
<jamespage> and CI is coming along as well thanks to beisner
<gnuoy> Workload status has also landed
<tinwood> :)
<jamespage> gnuoy, do you think its time we moved the layers, interfaces and charms out of openstack-charmers and under /openstack?
<thedac> DNS HA with MAAS 2.0 is landing
<jamespage> \o/
<gnuoy> yes, sod the unit tests as tinwood likes to say
<tinwood> \o/
<jamespage> external-networking-redux is also landing
<tinwood> hmm, which other tinwood is that.
<jamespage> ed
 * gnuoy is joking about tinwood ever saying that
<tinwood> ;)
<coreycb> deploy from source fixups are moving along a little, hoping to have the default options landed this week or early next week
<gnuoy> argh, we need to get that into the layers too
<gnuoy> deploy from src that is
<gnuoy> Congress want/need it
<coreycb> gnuoy, hmm
<jamespage> gnuoy, sure - but we can add that in a later cycle if need be
<gnuoy> ack
<coreycb> I like that idea
<thedac> Yeah, don't slow down landing what you have
<jamespage> ok so sounds like we have good stuff arriving for 16.07 and progress is going well
<gnuoy> nope warp speed ahead
<jamespage> I hope to work on the sriov stuff next week based on tims existing reviews, although I lack infra to test it
 * jamespage ho hum
<jamespage> #topic Release Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | OpenStack Charms Meeting | Current topic: Release Bugs
<jamespage> #link https://goo.gl/HJjORI
<jamespage> 34 new bugs; I'd encourage everyone to take a morning to review NEW bugs; I suspect alot just need housekeeping
<jamespage> include myself in that comment.
<gnuoy> Yeah, I bet those oslo.messaging.rpc.dispatcher AttributeError:* ones are sstale
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | OpenStack Charms Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<jamespage> I'm still pshing on re-licensing of the charms; I have +1's from most corporate contributors; have 5 or so independents I'm chasing
<jamespage> then I can start pushing that into the charms as well
<jamespage> anyone got anything else?
<gnuoy> I don't have much other than to reiterate we need to test multi-release upgrades
<gnuoy> jamespage, can I have an action for that ^ ?
<jamespage> #action gnuoy to update testing for multi-release upgrade testing...
<meetingology> ACTION: gnuoy to update testing for multi-release upgrade testing...
<jamespage> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | OpenStack Charms Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<gnuoy> jamespage, etiquete guide!
<jamespage> +7 days hopefully in #openstack-meeting-whatever
 * jamespage stops trolling gnuoy
<jamespage> ;-)
<gnuoy> :)
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 15 17:11:27 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-15-17.01.moin.txt
 * tinwood chuckles
<gnuoy> thanks jamespage
<jamespage> good -oh - same time next week
<thedac> thanks jamespage
<tinwood> thanks jamespage
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-16
<dholbach> hello
<dholbach> anyone here from the QA team?
<dholbach> does anyone have other business to be discussed in the CC meeting?
<dholbach> czajkowski, ^ looks like meeting the QA team needs to be rescheduled
<dholbach> ok, let's call it a meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-12
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
 * sbeattie waves
<chrisccoulson> hi
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 12 16:36:38 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Balint Reczey (rbalint) provided debdiffs for xenial-zesty for kodi (LP: #1694249)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1694249 in kodi (Ubuntu) "CVE-2017-8314: malicious subtitle zip files vulnerability" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1694249
<tyhicks> Balint Reczey (rbalint) provided debdiffs for trusty-zesty for wireshark (LP: #1397091)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1397091 in wireshark (Ubuntu) "[Security] Update Wireshark in Precise, Trusty, and Utopic to include relevant security patches." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397091
<tyhicks> Gianfranco Costamagna (LocutusOfBorg) provided debdiffs for trusty-zesty for ettercap (LP: #1695722)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1695722 in ettercap (Ubuntu) "ettercap security vulnerabilities" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1695722
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security Team is excited to announce that leosilva has joined the team!
<jdstrand> welcome leosilva! :)
<leosilva> o/ Hello there!
<sbeattie> woot! welcome leosilva!
<ratliff> :-) welcome!
<tyhicks> leosilva: we've very happy to have you :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<leosilva> tks ppl, hope to keep the high standars on our team :)
<jdstrand> I was out last Monday so giving two weeks status. I worked with the snappy team quite a bit on:
<jdstrand> - 2.25 revert issues surrounding racy profile generation
<jdstrand> - workarounds for gadget snap not influencing interface auto-connections
<jdstrand> - various snappy PR reviews
<jdstrand> I also worked on:
<jdstrand> - lots of store reviews and forum requests for store actions
<jdstrand> - greengrass-support interface (lots of investigations, apparmor namespaces/stacking documentation, various upstream apparmor discussions/bug reports, implement the interface
<jdstrand> - updating click-apparmor and apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu projects to reflect new support status (ie, same as unity8). sync with others
<jdstrand> - planning security team's snappy work for this cycle with ratliff and tyhicks
<jdstrand> This week I plan to work on
<jdstrand> - various PR reviews for fixing racy profile generation (at least bpf caching
<jdstrand>   and system-key PRs)
<jdstrand> - respond to greengrass-support feedback and/or iterate on the policy if receive functional devmode snap
<jdstrand> - password-manager-service PR
<jdstrand> - file various overlay/apparmor bugs as a result of my investigation
<jdstrand> As have time:
<jdstrand> - finish snappy-debug changes for journald/lack of syslog
<jdstrand> - miscellaneous policy updates
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> guess it's my turn
<jdstrand> ah yes
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up :)
<mdeslaur> I just published some irssi updates
<mdeslaur> and am working on gnutls and libiberty updates
<mdeslaur> If I have time, I'll pick something else off the list
<mdeslaur> that's about it.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on bug triage this week
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue
<sbeattie> I need to pick back up the sudo update I was also working on
<sbeattie> I have some UCT tracking stuff to do, with the kernel team adding a few new kernels.
<sbeattie> That's probably it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: over to you
<tyhicks> I'm on cve triage this week
<tyhicks> I've got two remaining ecryptfs patches to review (1 kernel, 1 userspace)
<tyhicks> then I expect to make some progress on fscrypto evaluation for home dir encryption
<tyhicks> I also want to sync up with kees and finalize one last design detail for the seccomp logging changes
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I need to catch up on upstream review, Casey has posted a new revision of his stacking patches, their is the review for Tetsuo I need to do as well
<jjohansen> I need to poke at some bugs that I left to languish that last couple of weeks 1696552, 1696552, 1696547, 1696544, 1676565, ...
<jjohansen> There might be a few more LSS duties to do. And I need to register, and book travel
<jjohansen> I need to do some updating of Fate and on suse to support the snappy request
<jjohansen> And maybe, just maybe get back to the next round of patches for upstream
<jjohansen> I think that is it for me sarnold you back yet?
<jjohansen> I guess not tyhicks back to you
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: go ahea
<tyhicks> ahead
<chrisccoulson> heh
<chrisccoulson> I've got a firefox update to publish (and test again as well, as it was respun at the end of last week)
<chrisccoulson> Hopefully Chromium as well - the build I tested last week has a couple of serious bugs, so hoping for a new one this week
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, a couple of embargoed issues
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<ratliff> sarnold: are you back? if so, you go next
<sarnold> I'm back, drink in hand! :)
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week; finishing off xdelta3 mir today, I figured I'd re-start gdm3 mir this afternoon
<sarnold> and apparmor patch reviews if those would be useful to jj
<sarnold> that's it for me, ratliff?
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week.
<ratliff> my internally focused work is tapering off for the moment
<ratliff> that should give me some time to work on Ubuntu Core 15 updates and reports
<ratliff> that's it for me
<ratliff> back to you, tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/transifex-client.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-moment.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/insighttoolkit4.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gradle.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-qs.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> leosilva: starting next week, you'd mention what you're working on after ratliff states her work
<leosilva> ok!
<tyhicks> we all know that you'll be busy setting up your work machine and the proper build/test environment this week :)
<sarnold> and fixing the documentation as you go :D
<leosilva> tyhicks: yep, but feel free to send me anything I should to read , pleaseeeee
<tyhicks> will do!
<tyhicks> leosilva: don't hesitate to ask for help if you hit problems in the documentation (as sarnold alluded to)
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 12 16:57:17 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-12-16.36.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sarnold> welcome leosilva :)
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<leosilva> sarnold: :) tks, let's rock!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-13
<smoser> o/
<powersj> o/
<ahasenack> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 13 16:01:18 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> o/
<nacc> o/
<rbasak> Who's here?
<smb> o/
<dpb1> o/
<ahasenack> o/
<slashd> o/
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> ACTION: rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<rbasak> Carry over.
<rbasak> #action rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<rbasak> ACTION: rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<rbasak> ACTION: rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<rbasak> ACTION: teward to add release notes blurb for nginx (1.10.x -> 1.12.x) (carried over)
<rharper> carry
<rbasak> ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<rbasak> #action rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<rharper> I failed to write those during the sprint last week =(  despite the agenda item to do so
<rbasak> #action rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
 * rharper puts on the cone of shame 
<nacc> rbasak: carry over
 * nacc tries to fit into the same cone of shame as rharper 
<rbasak> #action nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<rharper> lol
<nacc> squirrel!
<rharper> hehe
<rbasak> #action nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<rbasak> That's all the actions I think.
<rbasak> #topic Development Release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Development Release
<rbasak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
<rbasak> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-aa-server-core
<rbasak> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> Any comments on current development status?
<rbasak> #info No comments on current development status.
<rbasak> Any active work that may need wider communication?
<rbasak> #info No active work that may need wider communication.
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd/ddstreet)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd/ddstreet)
<slashd> Business as usual for STS, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/24849801/
<slashd> #info SRU pending for : sosreport, cinder, neutron, keystone, autofs5, nfs-utils, percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5, swift
<rbasak> #info SRU pending for : sosreport, cinder, neutron, keystone, autofs5, nfs-utils, percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5, swift
<rbasak> Thanks slashd!
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Last week at the sprint we spent time on cloud-init and COPR build and testing. As of last night we are successfully building in COPR nightly and running tests against the built RPMs.
<powersj> This week I am back to working on the proposed testing, additional metric generation, and if I have time, adding additional features (e.g. email notification, reporting) to the ISO tests.
<powersj> questions?
<rbasak> #info Back to working on the proposed testing, additional metric generation, and if Josh has time, adding additional features (e.g. email notification, reporting) to the ISO tests.
<rbasak> Thanks powersj!
<rbasak> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<rbasak> Any upcoming CfPs?
<rbasak> #info No upcoming CfPs noted.
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rbasak> Any upcoming events?
 * smb wonders whether he missed his ping
<rbasak> I did, sorry. I'll go back.
<rbasak> #info No upcoming events noted.
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Nothing to report but a question: I noticed when doing installs with artful-server daily images, that the installed system (VM) takes a long time to come up due to waiting until timeout for systemd-networkd-wait-online.service. The VM is already pingable at that stage, so it is more likely a missing event (and maybe related to trying to move to netplan). Is that known already?
<rbasak> #info Nothing to report.
<ahasenack> I haven't seen that yet
<rbasak> smb: can you file a bug on that please?
<smb> rbasak, ok, will do
<rbasak> Thanks smb!
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> AOB?
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<rbasak> gaughen: you're still in the rota. Chairing next please?
<rbasak> The next meeting will be at Tue 20 Jun 16:00:00 UTC 2017. gaughen will chair.
<rbasak> Thanks all!
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 13 16:12:40 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-13-16.01.moin.txt
<gaughen> I've been meaning to bug dpb1 to get out of the rotation. I can't even edit the doc!
<gaughen> rbasak, ^^
<rbasak> In that case, dpb1 is next :-P
<rbasak> gaughen: the wiki logs you out sometimes and it isn't obvious. Do you have a Login button at the top?
<dpb1> rbasak: sure, I can do that
<rbasak> Thanks!
<cpaelzer> thanks rbasak
<nacc> rbasak: thanks
<slashd> rbasak, thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-15
 * slangasek waves
<Odd_Bloke> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<tdaitx> are we doing mumble or hangouts? can't find the hangouts link in the cellphone's calendar
<xnox> https://hangouts.google.com/hangouts/_/canonical.com/mumblymumble
<xnox> but it's not working for a few of us today =(
<cyphermox> wfm
<xnox> philroche, works now
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 15 15:08:07 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> bdmurray infinity chiluk cyphermox caribou robru sil2100 slangasek pitti mwhudson doko xnox barry tdaitx
<slangasek> oops
<slangasek> please hold
 * infinity holds.
<gaughen> holding
<Odd_Bloke> Should have run it through Mumble first.
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e doko bdmurray slangasek infinity sil2100 cyphermox tdaitx xnox mwhudson rbalint)
<slangasek> slangasek doko infinity xnox cyphermox rbalint tdaitx mwhudson bdmurray sil2100
<rcj> Vote passes: meeting held
<slangasek> is that better?  it looks better
<cyphermox> missing rcj, Odd_Bloke, philroche, fginther?
<cyphermox> ;D
<slangasek> cyphermox: by manager order for this week
<tdaitx> I wouldn't say better, just more up to date
<philroche> and tribaal
<slangasek>  * discussions about custom server image deployment for a customer
<slangasek>  * discussions about ruby in main for 18.04
<slangasek>  * hitting the python3 migration with sticks
<slangasek>  * NEW processing for Kubuntu, OpenStack packages
<slangasek>  * a bit of process-removals
<slangasek>  * on PTO tomorrow
<cyphermox> I knew I was frogetting someone
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - sprint, traveling back
<doko> - two swap days
<doko> - investigate binutils issues on AArch64
<doko> - backport binutils issues for xenial
<doko> - GCC updates
<doko> (done)
<infinity> Two-day week due to sprint and swap day:
<infinity>  - Worked/working on reviewing X HWE stack for the next xenial point release
<infinity>  - A bit more work on glibc
<infinity>  - AA and SRU reviews and general AA tasks
<infinity> (done)
<slangasek> xnox:
<xnox> Prepare WSL submission
<xnox> Upload xe-guest-utilities into artful; requested customer feedback
<xnox> systemd sru validation
<xnox> systemd merge from debian + more bugfixes
<xnox> s390x bug triange
<xnox> Prepare spec to remove resolvconf from default install
<xnox> ..
<cyphermox> is that a .. meaning you're done?
<cyphermox> old syntax...
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox>  - next week is my last week before vacation...
<cyphermox> netplan:
<cyphermox>  - HIGHLIGHT: netplan SRU of 0.23 to X, Y, Z + SRU verification in progress
<cyphermox>  - HIGHLIGHT: netplan is now used by default to configure networks when installing server via d-i.
<xnox> yes.
<cyphermox> grub2:
<cyphermox>  - Fixed up internal license checking bug in grub2's fdt for SB on arm64
<cyphermox>  - HIGHLIGHT: revised SecureBoot patches everywhere:
<cyphermox>    - improved Secure Boot, improved chainloading (booting Windows from Grub)
<cyphermox>    - fixes for incorrect prompting to disable Secure Boot when using DKMS modules
<cyphermox> artful:
<cyphermox>  - helped lubuntu update their seed and metapackage for lubuntu-next
<cyphermox>  - fix broken NSS certdb for evolution I noticed in a passing upload
<cyphermox>  - fix system-config-printer python module paths
<cyphermox> SRUs:
<cyphermox>  - verifying multipath-tools bug on ppc64el (missing dm- modules) (LP: #1673350)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1673350 in hw-detect (Ubuntu Yakkety) "dm-queue-length module is not included in installer/initramfs" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1673350
<cyphermox>  - in the above, noticed some more cases of prep-bootdev issues (LP: #1681932)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1681932 in grub2 (Ubuntu Artful) "fails on multipath: cannot find /dev/sda1" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1681932
<cyphermox>  - verifying SRU fbx64.efi removal from /EFI/ubuntu (LP: #1684341)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1684341 in grub2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "EFI fallback binary should not be installed in --removable mode" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1684341
<cyphermox> waiting for review in unapproved:
<cyphermox>  - netcfg: xenial, yakkety, zesty
<cyphermox>  - hw-detect: xenial, yakkety
<cyphermox>  - grub2/grub2-signed: xenial, yakkety, zesty
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> no rbalint?
<cyphermox> he's rebuilding.
<cyphermox> I mean, rebalinting.
<tdaitx> HIGHLIGHT
<tdaitx> * new apport hook for openjdk-8 to capture hs_err log files on crashes and modified conffiles on all reports (LP:#1696886)
<tdaitx> MIDLIGHT
<tdaitx> * checked openjdk-9 freetype error: 1.2k reports last month
<tdaitx> * +1 maintenance: set schedule+plans with Luckas, reviewed documentation, setup+checked new environment (why isn't there a LXC-based "sbuild"?)
<tdaitx> * small reproducer for LP: #1647638
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647638 in apt (Ubuntu) "W: APT had planned for dpkg to do more than it reported back" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647638
<tdaitx> * working on and testing required dependencies for SRU LP: #1694358
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1694358 in jtreg (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] update jtreg in 14.04 LTS to 4.2-b05" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1694358
<tdaitx> * putting apport merge-proposal for adding a _PID key under test
<tdaitx> LOWLIGHT
<tdaitx> * struggling with the wifi
<tdaitx> * finding out on a day-to-day basis what else I didn't reinstall/reconfigure/re-something in my enviroment after a clean Zesty install + Artful upgrade
<tdaitx> * keeping up with my Portland coffee addiction
<tdaitx> (done)
<philroche> slangasek: Balint is on swap day
<slangasek> ack
<slangasek> mwhudson:
<slangasek> oh wait, not that guy ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<slangasek> .. and he's off this morning!
<tdaitx> hmm, on second thought... maybe the coffee addiction should have gone into the highlights
<slangasek> sil2100 not here
<cyphermox> tdaitx: did you manage to fix your wifi troubles?
<tdaitx> sil2100 is also off today and tomorrow
<slangasek> tdaitx: for future greppability please put 'HIGHLIGHT' on the same line with the highlight
<tdaitx> slangasek, ok
<slangasek> any of the cloudy folks want to add their $.02 today?
<gaughen> maybe we should include in our dev summary a review of the coffee shops in downtown pdx
<tdaitx> I will copy cyphermox next time ;-)
<rcj>  * livecd-rootfs and live-build were accepted into trusty-proposed to bring cloud image builds into livecd-rootfs for all supported releases
<rcj>  * Starting a discussion of moving to netplan in cloud-images for 17.10 and later
<slangasek> rbalint: hi! just in time to give your status :)
<tdaitx> cyphermox, fix the wifi? not yet it seems, still got some lockups with the external adapter, even with a strong signal, wpasupplicant wouldn't do any auth after that =/
<cyphermox> :/
<rbalint> * sudo merge and SRUs: LP: #1686803, LP: #1697587
<rbalint> * fixed crash autopkgtest to let sudo migrate LP: #1693387
<rbalint> * convert dash to use debhelper sequencer #864660
<rbalint> * final PIE rebuild ordering in PPAs: ppa:rbalint/pie-arm64-{0,1,2}, Steve performed the no-change uploads
<rbalint> * convert reiser4progs to debhelper 10 sequencer to fix last PIE FTBFS #864794
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686803 in sudo (Ubuntu Artful) "sudo returns exit code 0 if child is killed with SIGTERM" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686803
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1697587 in sudo (Ubuntu) " Please merge sudo (main) 1.8.20p2-1 from Debian unstable (main)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1697587
<rbalint> eof
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1693387 in crash (Ubuntu) "crash's autopkg tests fail without -updates and -security pockets" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1693387
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else this week?
<infinity> Nein.
<gaughen> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bug triage
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug triage
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<gaughen> any bugs on this list that we need to discuss?
<gaughen> I see the first bug on the list isn't assigned to an individual
<slangasek> yes, I triaged it to the team
<slangasek> maybe we want to look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/~canonical-foundations/+assignedbugs instead? :)
<cyphermox> there's something else too, related to that rls-aa-*
<gaughen> OMG slangasek that list is scary!
<gaughen> 7 year old bugs!
<gaughen> are we really going to fix those issues? or should we close some of this cruft as won't fix?
<cyphermox> fyi, we've been discussing the tem used for the desktop team to track MIRs (team subscription), this may mess up the reports a bit until it's all fixed up
<cyphermox> mostly a matter of desktop-bugs vs. desktop-packages.
<slangasek> some should be unassigned, some should be closed
<slangasek> but I'm not sure it makes sense for us to go through that in realtime right now
<gaughen> agreed, slangasek
<gaughen> but definitely a list we should walk through
<slangasek> although, I did think LP: #1696970 should be assigned to xnox
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1696970 in systemd (Ubuntu Artful) "softlockup DoS causes systemd-journald.service to abort with SIGABORT" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1696970
<slangasek> neither gaughen nor xnox objects
<xnox> sure
<gaughen> sure
<gaughen> assign it to rbalint
<slangasek> xnox: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1624317
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1624317 in systemd (Ubuntu Artful) "systemd-resolved breaks VPN with split-horizon DNS" [High,Confirmed]
<slangasek> and I think that's it for today
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 15 15:38:29 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-15-15.08.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<gaughen> thanks slangasek!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-17
<Hankbonk> Hi everyone ...
<Hankbonk> I am from Belgium, 51 year old programmer
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-06-11
<ratliff> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 11 16:30:14 2018 UTC.  The chair is ratliff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ratliff> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<ratliff> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<ratliff> Thanks to Corey Bryant (coreycb) for providing a debdiff for bionic for python-oslo.middleware (LP: #1628031).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1628031 in OpenStack Security Advisory "[OSSA-2017-001] CatchErrors leaks sensitive values in oslo.middleware (CVE-2017-2592)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1628031
<ratliff> Thanks to Simon Deziel (sdezial) for provided debdiffs for artful and bionic for unbound (LP: #1773720).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1773720 in unbound (Ubuntu Bionic) "CVE-2017-15105" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1773720
<ratliff> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Thank you!
<ratliff> The Ubuntu Security team is hiring. See https://grnh.se/8c0a6c1f1 for more details.
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<ratliff> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> This is a short week for me (off friday and all next week). This week I plan to work on:
<jdstrand> * snapd PR reviews
<jdstrand> * go through the anbox design and think through what proper confinement might look like
<jdstrand> * iterate on last open PR (udev trigger)
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<jdstrand> * adjust snap-confine to always use a device cgroup
<jdstrand> * pick up review-tools snap USNs phase1/part ii work as have time
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently working on a massive imagemagick update
<mdeslaur> if anyone wants to help test, packages are building in the security team proposed PPA
<mdeslaur> I'm also working on en embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> and I'll pick something else from the list after that
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I'm currently working on gnupg/gnupg2 updates
<sbeattie> (they're also available in the security team proposed PPA for testing)
<sbeattie> kernel updates are in the process of being published, will be publishing USNs for those
<sbeattie> I also have amd64-microcode updates to publish once the kernel is out the door
<sbeattie> after that, I have a couple of internal tasks to taek on.
<sbeattie> That will probably consume my week.
<sbeattie> jjohansen: over to you
<jjohansen> I need to get my upstream kernel apparmor pull request out this morning, it was delayed last week because of the idr patch
<jjohansen> and then I really need to focus on apparmor 3, specifically the feature subsetting so that we correctly compile versioned policy to what the kernel supports
<jjohansen> if I get that done, I will move on to what ever other misc apparmor 3 issues need addressed so we can kick it out next week
<jjohansen> sarnold: you are up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week
<sarnold> working down the list of MIRs, fprintd and .. related package .. and need to submit presentation topic to debconf
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<sarnold> (oh yes, reviewing john's patches if he feels it useful)
<chrisccoulson> I'm currently working on a firefox update
<chrisccoulson> the thunderbird update I was expecting still hasn't happened, so I'll have to do that if it does
<chrisccoulson> I triaged all of the spidermonkey CVEs at the end of last week, and I'll probably do an update for that this week
<chrisccoulson> other than that, I'm still working on getting thunderbird 60 packages building
<chrisccoulson> I hope I'll have enough time after that to do something else, as it's .... *drum roll* .... rust updates next week
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week.
<ratliff> This week will be dedicated to internal work. When I get a few spare minutes I will work on triaging wireshark CVEs to ensure they show the actual state.
<ratliff> leosilva: on to you
<leosilva> I'm bug-triage this week.
<leosilva> I'm working on ruby updates.
<leosilva> I'll also do some cve- searching after ruby to pick other updates
<leosilva> ratliff: it's back to you.
<ratliff> thanks, leosilva!
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<ratliff> The Ubuntu Security team suggests that contributors look into merging Debian security updates in community-supported packages. If you would like to help Ubuntu but are not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<ratliff> See http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/ for available merges and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details on preparing Ubuntu security updates. If you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-hardened. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<ratliff> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<ratliff> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson, leosilva: Thanks!
<ratliff> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 11 16:46:21 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-06-11-16.30.moin.txt
<leosilva> tks ratliff!
<sbeattie> ratliff: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks ratliff
<sarnold> thanks ratliff!
<jdstrand> thanks ratliff :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-06-14
<sil2100> o/
<rbalint> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 14 15:01:30 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<gaughen> \o
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther)
<slangasek> rbalint cyphermox bdmurray fginther philroche doko juliank tdaitx infinity mwhudson sil2100 slangasek Odd_Bloke xnox rcj
<slangasek> rbalint: hullo
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * updated gce-compute-image-packages in trusty-proposed
<rbalint> * verified LP: #1771823 on my hw
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1771823 in linux (Ubuntu Cosmic) "Please include ax88179_178a and r8152 modules in d-i udeb" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1771823
<rbalint> * multiple unattended-upgrades fixes
<rbalint> (done)
<cyphermox> - shim-review: Isoo (Deepin?), Oracle Solaris.
<cyphermox> - initramfs-tools SRUs to x, a, b for netplan support & remote root
<cyphermox> - finishing shim/shim-signed SRU to trusty for shim-13
<cyphermox> - still fighting haskell transition (cryptonite, cipher-aes) to unblock pandoc
<cyphermox> - debugging possible tg3 / bonding issue in netplan
<cyphermox> - really fix update-manager's 100% cpu bug (bug LP: #1637180)
<cyphermox> - SRU shim-signed fixes for password, debconf capb (bug LP: #1770579, bug LP: #1767091)
<cyphermox> - investigate ENOSPC errors for efiboomgr + detecting BootOrderLock issues
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1637180 in update-manager (Ubuntu Artful) ""The computer needs to restart" dialog constantly eats CPU" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1637180
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1770579 in shim-signed (Ubuntu Bionic) "Failure to quote variable containing secureboot password (errors out with whitespace) package shim-signed 1.34.9+13-0ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: installed shim-signed package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 2" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1770579
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1767091 in shim-signed (Ubuntu) "package shim-signed 1.34.9+13-0ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: installed shim-signed package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 30" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1767091
<cyphermox> (done)
<bdmurray> submitted test crash reports to devops ET env with different Cassandra server
<bdmurray> reviewed testing of devops ET env with different Cassandra server (good)
<bdmurray> tested removing cassandra application from devops ET env (good)
<bdmurray> updated mojo spec to utilize new DSE version string, 5.1, so there is thrift support
<bdmurray> investigation into hung retracers
<bdmurray> modified daisy to kick kodi and mysql-workbench crashes to the end of line
<bdmurray> duplicate consolidation of LP: #1768379 (py3clean not found)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1768379 in python3-defaults (Ubuntu) "python3-minimal should depend on versioned version of python3-minimal" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1768379
<bdmurray> notified derivatives regarding fixing LP: #1750465
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1750465 in ubuntu-mate-artwork (Ubuntu Xenial) "upgrade attempting to process triggers out of order (package plymouth-theme-ubuntu-text 0.9.2-3ubuntu17 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving triggers unprocessed)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1750465
<bdmurray> talked to slangasek about slow boot bugs again
<bdmurray> review of package to team mapping and unowned packages / teams
<bdmurray> reviewed trigger changes between xenial and bionic created list to fix
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> uploaded lsvpd for 18.04 fixing lsmcode (LP: #1751986)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1751986 in lsvpd (Ubuntu Bionic) "[LTCTest][OPAL][OP920] lsmcode -A is not showing any output" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1751986
<fginther> * Build system vanguard
<fginther> * Pushing latest releases out the door
<fginther> * Minor fixes to build and publish tools
<fginther> * Minimal image KVM testing
<fginther> â done
<fginther> philroche:
<philroche> * Team sprint last week
<philroche> * Monday OoO
<philroche> * gce-compute-image-packages verification
<philroche> * Minimal image simplestreams
<philroche> * CPC build system vanguard
<philroche> (done)
<philroche> doko:
<doko> - reduce gcc ICE found in chromium build
<doko> - gcc-7 / gcc-8 uploads
<doko> - python 3.6.6 and 3.7.0 release candidates
<doko> - some transition rebuilds
<doko> - proposed is still a mess
<doko> - binutils trunk builds, prepare for release in late June
<doko> (done)
<juliank> verified an upgrade trigger bug, fixing locking issues in python-apt, fixed locking issue in apt, toying with new apt solvers
<juliank> no time for newlines :/
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> (might have missed something, too jetlagged past days to remember it all)
<sil2100> No infinity I guess?
<sil2100> tdaitx: your turn!
<tdaitx> short week: out on Monday
<tdaitx> * JCK 8:
<tdaitx>   - reviewing the old code & alternatives
<tdaitx>   - doing jck-sample runs in lxc in the same jenkins slave
<tdaitx> * Quick review and sorting out pending tasks from the sprint (ca-certificates sru, scaling, debug symbols for error tracker)
<tdaitx> * Other:
<tdaitx>   - still working mostly under PDT
<tdaitx> (done)
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Releasing previous kernel cycle, starting the review of a new cycle
<sil2100> - security-britney:
<sil2100>   * Follow up on mojo spec review, prepare fixes
<sil2100>   * Get stuff deployed, iterate on things not working on wendigo
<sil2100> - core18:
<sil2100>   * Various PR reviews
<sil2100>   * Adding systemd-sysv for reboot/shutdown support
<sil2100>   * Preparing console-conf changes to not hard-code the '16' core version number (to support core18)
<sil2100>   * Testing to make sure console-conf works as expected
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image classic raspi3:
<sil2100>   * Work on fixing some of the broken cosmic autopkgtests
<sil2100>   * Preparing a new haschangelog test-case that would work-around the github API rate limit
<sil2100>   * Preparing a trimmed down livecd-rootfs package for just the raspi3 rootfs prep
<sil2100> - Investigating cosmic ubuntu images falling back to grub prompt after d-i based installations
<sil2100> - NEW reviews of ndctl and pmdk
<sil2100> - Kicking Bileto to not 401 on swift uploads once again
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek>  * team sprint last week in Portland, lots of things done
<slangasek>  * looking at openssh added to the server seed, to merge server and cloud seeds
<slangasek>  * looking at cloud-init warnings about locales now that we're C.UTF-8 only
<slangasek>  * writing a systemd unit to create a container to install a package
<slangasek>  * fixed initramfs-tools generating wrong resume lines for random-crypt swap
<slangasek>  * misc SRU work
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> Odd_Bloke:
<Odd_Bloke> * Sprint last week, swap day Monday
<Odd_Bloke> * Out tomorrow
<Odd_Bloke> * Minimal image debugging and fixing
<Odd_Bloke> * Working on moving GCE promotion to new build system
<Odd_Bloke> * Worked on reintroducing the root tarball to streams (for cosmic) (LP: #1585233)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1585233 in cloud-images "Provide -root.tar.xz for bionic and later" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1585233
<Odd_Bloke> * Bunch o' meetings
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<xnox> Fighting jetlag
<xnox> Following up on actions from sprint
<xnox> Upgrading crypto stacks for power/s390x
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libica/+bug/1776194
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/opencryptoki/+bug/1776210
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1776194 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[18.10 FEAT] Upgrade libica >=3.3.3" [High,Fix released]
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssl-ibmca/+bug/1776209
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1776210 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[18.10 FEAT] Upgrade opencryptoki >=3.10.0" [High,Fix released]
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libocxl/+bug/1771813
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1776209 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[18.10 FEAT] Upgrade openssl-ibmca >=2.0.0" [High,Fix committed]
<xnox> ð
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1771813 in libocxl (Ubuntu Bionic) "[Ubuntu 18.10 FEAT] new libocxl library" [Medium,In progress]
<bdmurray> rcj: ?
<rcj> * Published Ubuntu Node OS images for Amazon EKS https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/docs/aws/eks/
<rcj> * Enabled snap pre-seeding for livecd-rootfs in xenial  2.408.33
<rcj> (done)
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<gaughen> slangasek, one comment
<gaughen> I love the rainbow.
<gaughen> that is all.
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything that warrants discussing here?
<bdmurray> jibel brought up bug 1768230
<ubottu> bug 1768230 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "Long time booting : Failed to connect to lvmetad. Falling back to device scanning." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1768230
<xnox> the answer is switch to dracut, use systemd in initrd, such that we can launch lvmetad daemon
<xnox> i'm sure slangasek is down with that
<slangasek> I'm sorry I wasn't listening I was sharpening this shiv
<slangasek> bdmurray: how about if I take that one to look at
<bdmurray> slangasek: sounds good, that might be my issue if that helps
<slangasek> ok
<bdmurray> slangasek: that's it from me
<slangasek> alright
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<doko> proposed ...
<doko> ... is a mess
<slangasek> yes
<doko> should we disable autosyncs for a while? only makes sense if people are committing to clean up things
<xnox> doko, true that
<xnox> doko, hold hostage, until bonuses are done.
<slangasek> doko: any pointers regarding what needs looked at currently?
<cyphermox> haskell
<cyphermox> ?
<doko> it's r-base, openmpi, haskell
<doko> and probably more
<slangasek> ugh
<slangasek> can we remove haskell?
<cyphermox> if anyone has more knowledge of {haskell U crypto U alignment}
<doko> isn't the transition tracker wirtten in hascall?
<doko> or was that ocaml
<slangasek> ocaml
<slangasek> but I'm ok with removing that too ;)
<slangasek> so it sounds like I'll plan to do some digging into haskell crypto armhf today
<cyphermox> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=901406
<ubottu> Debian bug 901406 in src:haskell-cipher-aes "haskell-cipher-aes: unaligned access on arm64 kernel (armhf binary) segfauts during testsuite" [Serious,Open]
<doko> and ginggs already requested to remove some openmpi stuff for armhf
<xnox> slangasek, https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/arm/mem_alignment i thought /proc/cpu/alignment should work, no?
<slangasek> last call
<slangasek> vorlon@rugby:~$ cat /proc/cpu/alignment
<slangasek> cat: /proc/cpu/alignment: No such file or directory
<slangasek> xnox: ^^ :P
<slangasek> not present on our arm64 kernels
<slangasek> which is where the SIGBUS happens
<cjwatson> yeah that's a 32-bit-only thing
<cjwatson> compare https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-buildd/+bug/1516331
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1516331 in launchpad-buildd "please set /proc/cpu/alignment=4 on Launchpad ARM buildd kernels" [Undecided,Fix released]
<slangasek> the problem is the chips really don't want to help you with this given that 32-bit is a compatibility mode
<xnox> slangasek, and i guess kernel cmdline alignment= wouldn't work either?!
<rbalint>  r-cran-memoise may crash in autopkgtest for the same reason
<rbalint> on armhf
<slangasek> and thus the kernel doesn't have an implementation for trapping+fixup either AFAIK
<slangasek> anyway, to be investigated
<slangasek> rbalint: R is on its own
<slangasek> :)
<cyphermox> slangasek: fwiw, both cryptonite and cipher-aes are in my homedir, if you want to have a look
<slangasek> cyphermox: ack, thanks
<cyphermox> (and built/building so we can just run tests)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 14 15:35:37 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-06-14-15.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<sil2100> Thanks o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-06-11
<cyphermox> doko: didrocks: jdstrand: MIR team meeting now?
<cyphermox> there were two unclaimed MIRs, I took them
<cyphermox> it's too bad cpaelzer doesn't seem to be around, he expressed concerns about the amount of work he was doing on MIRs, I think he wants help (not sure if it's mailman or something else, and I have to talk to him about it)
<cyphermox> I don't know if there's anything else to be discussed?
<doko> I think it's mailman, otoh I don't have a good overview what else is pending
<ahasenack> cpaelzer's internet is down for the moment
<ahasenack> s/for/at/
<ahasenack> we have a kronosnet mir too
<ahasenack> (sorry, I was just lurking here)
<ahasenack> but it's with the secteam iiuc
<ahasenack> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1811139
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1811139 in kronosnet (Ubuntu) "[MIR] kronosnet" [Undecided,New]
<jdstrand> cyphermox: sorry at a conference this week
<didrocks> cyphermox: sorry, was in another meeting
<cyphermox> ack
<cyphermox> well, all is well I guess
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-06-13
<cyphermox> o/
<tdaitx> \o
<juliank> o/
<juliank> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 13 15:03:51 2019 UTC.  The chair is juliank. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<juliank> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<juliank> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<juliank> rbalint tdaitx juliank xnox bdmurray doko infinity waveform mwhudson cyphermox vorlon sil2100
<juliank> rbalint:
<juliank> rbalint seems afk
<juliank> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> rbalint: was out for food, I will go
<tdaitx> * reviewed, merged, and uploaded 2 livecd-rootfs changes
<tdaitx> * updated bugs and uploaded bionic/cosmic/disco -proposed fixes for tomcat8, netbeans, and scilab (LP: #1825604, LP: #1828427, LP: #1825037, LP: #1827090)
<tdaitx> * investigating openjdk 8u222-b04 failure to build on armhf
<tdaitx>   - got a hs_err_log from a ppa (for some reason the eoan build didn't output it)
<tdaitx>   - our patches do not seem to be the cause
<tdaitx>   - looking at upstream changes to the hotspot for possible causes
<tdaitx>   - writing email to aarch32-port for some help on sorting this out
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825604 in netbeans (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Netbeans 10 should depend on java11-sdk" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825604
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1828427 in netbeans (Debian) "[SRU] Netbeans fails to create a java project with NoSuchMethodError" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1828427
<tdaitx> Other:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825037 in scilab (Ubuntu) "[SRU] scilab-cli and scilab-adv-cli does not start on bionic, cosmic, disco and eoan" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825037
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1827090 in tomcat8 (Ubuntu) "[SRU] tomcat8-instance-create fails to update connector and control ports" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1827090
<tdaitx> - I can run again
<tdaitx> (done)
<tdaitx> juliank: go!
<juliank>  * aptdaemon: fixed test suite and implemented frontend locking for bb, cc, dd, ee (LP: #1831981)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1831981 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Disco) "aptdaemon frontend locking, locking fixes" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831981
<juliank>  * verified LP: #1754075
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1754075 in apt-setup (Debian) "apt-setup uses apt-key but probably should not anymore" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1754075
<juliank>  * checked that release upgrader can not be MITMed with meta release files anymore (re LP: #807259)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 807259 in update-manager (Ubuntu Eoan) "MetaRelease.download() Issue after Captive Portal" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/807259
<juliank>  * apt hacking
<juliank>  * got yellow fever vaccination for debconf in brazil
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> xnox:
<xnox> * OpenSSL SRU is out, and uploading regression fixes
<xnox> * Fixing up apache2 adt tests
<xnox> * Fixing up networking in initrd
<xnox>   - fixing broken static ip from initrd to netplan
<xnox>   - fixing broken dns in ipconfig
<xnox>   - adding support for vlans
<xnox> * Prepared s390-tools uploads opal->sipl signing rename
<xnox>   - awaiting lp deployment to upload
<xnox> * Registered for Debconf, All Systems Go
<xnox> * Travel booked for Debconf, Toronto, All Systems Go
<xnox> * Todo travel to Paris, trains are not bookable yet
<xnox> Done
<cyphermox> xnox: some trains may be bookable now, I booked some today
<bdmurray> merged MP from IS regarding cleaning up saved crash files more frequently
<juliank> bdmurray: your turn!
<bdmurray> reviewed / merged retracer-app charm change re telegraf configuration file
<bdmurray> investigation into retracing queue backlog
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for apport autopkgtest bug LP: #1832120
<bdmurray> submitted apt PR regarding df output and snaps (LP: #1756595)
<bdmurray> created, submitted tar xattrs patches to upstream developers
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1832120 in apport (Ubuntu) "i386 - Test fails 'test_get_file_package_uninstalled_multiarch'" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1832120
<bdmurray> updated apport on Launchpad retracers
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1756595 in apt (Ubuntu Bionic) "disk space info inadvertently provides all installed snaps" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1756595
<bdmurray> started work on motd bug LP: #1829968
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1829968 in base-files (Ubuntu Eoan) "motd [on at least some instances] does not auto-update daily" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1829968
<bdmurray> looked into mlocate and command-not-found, sent team an email about it
<bdmurray> short week due to multiple days off
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> - GCC 8 and GCC 9 updates
<doko> - looking at the OpenJDK 8 ftbfs on armhf
<doko> - binutils update, and testing. Will arrive in eoan shortly
<doko> - meetings about GCC offloading support
<doko> - GCC clash protection and cet updates, together with amurray, continued
<doko> - Monday was bank holiday
<doko> (done)
<juliank> no infinity
<juliank> waveform_:
<waveform_> * Investigated compressed kernels on arm64: they don't and won't support self-compression for various sensible reasons (LP: #1808056)
<waveform_> * Wrote new u-boot bootscript for pi; handling all formats (uncompressed, self-compressed, externally-compressed) on all (supported) pis (2, 3, 3+, CM3, CM3+)
<waveform_> * Tested bootscript on all (supported) pis, for cases of existing installs and potential future upgrades to compressed kernel on 64-bit versions (all working)
<waveform_> * Updated flash-kernel with new bootscript, removing all the hacks for the pi2 (uboot.env stuff), and using same boot-script for all archs; will submit MP after this
<waveform_> * Working on updating pi3-gadget to obtain u-boot script from a staged flash-kernel (currently it's just a static file in the gadget repo - not ideal)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1808056 in linux-raspi2 (Ubuntu) "vmlinuz is very large in arm64 -raspi2" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1808056
<waveform_> * Not much time for bluetooth investigations on core; will get to that tomorrow
<waveform_> (done)
<cyphermox> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> shim reviews
<cyphermox> MIR reviews: ec2-hibinit-agent, probert
<cyphermox> multiple meetings about netplan
<cyphermox> grub2 merge (omg)
<cyphermox> dealing with selling a house and whatnot
<cyphermox> (done)
<xnox> cyphermox:  the one with pretty wooden floorboards and all that?!
<cyphermox> oh, I forgot some partner work I can't give more details
<cyphermox> yes
<juliank> vorlon:
<xnox> awww ;`(
<vorlon>  * SRUs:
<vorlon>   * openssl 1.1.1 release, and a second round of openssl
<vorlon>   * various SRU reviews
<vorlon>  * digging into the story of non-lts hwe kernels on 14.04 desktops to understand what's gone wrong for some users
<vorlon>  * nvidia driver stack refinements
<vorlon>   * supporting CPC team in the GKE nvidia drivers
<vorlon>  * discussions around solutions for automated installs in the subiquity world
<cyphermox> xnox: there will be other wooden floorboards.
<vorlon>  * discussions around OVS support in netplan
<vorlon> (done)
<doko> openssl -updates or just -proposed?
<xnox> vorlon:  this round of openssl srus is ready to release; and security commented on it.
<sil2100> - Was out-of-office on Wednesday (waterpark)
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Add pandas to big_packages since the ADT tests were OOMing
<sil2100> - Respin some packages for the toolchains rebuilds
<sil2100>   * Iterate on those and release
<sil2100> - Poking around new core18 promotion being blocked - some TPM failures due to new openssl
<sil2100> - Finishing up cpc_jenkins changes for the new core18 auto-promotion schema, submitting MP
<xnox> doko:  we have it in updates, we have better in -proposed, and one more not uploaded yet.
<sil2100> - Some nusakan tweaks
<sil2100> - Testing the prepared /boot/grub u-i classic image upgrade bugfixes
<sil2100> - Some other stuff I forgot
<bdmurray> vorlon: Do we need to talk about hwe and 14.04?
<sil2100> (done)
<rbalint> (short week due to national holiday)
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * fixed unattended-upgrades' autopkgtest in Debian in 1.11.2
<rbalint> * fixed d3-format reusing existing non-epoched version in Debian
<rbalint> * WSL testing
<rbalint> (done)
<juliank> any questions?
<vorlon> bdmurray: yes probably
<juliank> #topic Release incoming bugs (eoan)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (eoan)
<vorlon> (though not necessarily here)
<juliank> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1798369 got carded but not targetted?
<ubottu> bug 1798369 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Reinstall Ubuntu (with preserving existing data) shows error message due to "Could not get lock /target/var/cache/apt/archives/lock"" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798369
<bdmurray> Was that an oversight?
<rbalint> i think we agreed to remove this feature
<vorlon> no, we didn't
<bdmurray> I don't recall that but the point is if it has a card then we should target it.
<vorlon> yes, we should target
<bdmurray> Right?
<bdmurray> Okay, doing so.
<bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssl/+bug/1832370 is undecided
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1832370 in openssl (Ubuntu) "Unable to configure or disable TLS 1.3 via openssl.cnf" [Undecided,New]
<bdmurray> and new
<xnox> that needs to be investigated to confirm if it's real or not.
<xnox> i guess i should take, unless someone else wants to play with openssl.cnf?
<bdmurray> cyphermox: we'd talked about meeting re more rls-ee- bugs but haven't done it yet - lets schedule something
<cyphermox> yep
<vorlon> looks like it should be taken (and also targeted to bionic, not just eoan)
<cyphermox> bdmurray: anytime but next Tuesday please.
<juliank> Regarding sdeziel's comment on nginx, that still requires a rebuild of nginx against openssl 1.1.1, right?
<vorlon> juliank: the point there is that there should already be support for limiting the protocol to the set that older openssl knows about, without having to rebuild anything; but doing so still shows TLSv1.3 being used
<xnox> juliank:  where?
<xnox> juliank:  where is that comment?
<bdmurray> targetting
<juliank> xnox: in the bug
<juliank> "My main goal is to have TLS 1.3 and 1.2 enabled with this ciphers list"
<vorlon> he probably misspoke somewhere along there
<juliank> ah
<vorlon> the config shows him pinning 1.1 + 1.2, not 1.3
<bdmurray> vorlon, xnox: Have you created a card?
<juliank> Now I understand
<juliank> very confusing
<xnox> juliank:  yes and no. the bug is that he can't disable particular chipersuites of 1.3, and then he also discovered he can't disable 1.3 at all it seems - using system configs.
<vorlon> bdmurray, xnox: doing
<juliank> That's annyoing
<juliank> Rebuilding nginx should allow him to do it in nginx.conf, though, afaiui
<juliank> I wanted to test that but have not gotten around to it yet
<vorlon> xnox: and dumping this straight into committed lane for you
<xnox> vorlon:  tah
<vorlon> sure, rebuilding all the openssl-using things would let them work around openssl.cnf not working correctly
<juliank> I gotta create those ecc keys for my server and setup TLS 1.3 to see if I need nginx rebuild or not; but I think I do to get it working correctly
<juliank> Anyhow, let's move on I guess, any other bugs?
<bdmurray> Okay, moving on bug 1756595 has been fixed upstream afaik. Is it worth SRU'ing?
<ubottu> bug 1756595 in apt (Ubuntu Bionic) "disk space info inadvertently provides all installed snaps" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1756595
<bdmurray> Not many people have used the affects me too feature
<juliank> bdmurray: Only merged it in git so far.
<bdmurray> But its a trivial SRU
<bdmurray> juliank: Fix Committed then? ;-)
<juliank> Will add it to future SRUs, but not SRU by itself
<bdmurray> juliank: Alright, cool. Unless this would be a good -proposed test vorlon...
<vorlon> bdmurray: let's write up more of a policy before we start doing that :)
<juliank> there's already a 1.8.2 I have to push to disco
<bdmurray> okay, that's it for High bugs then
<vorlon> are we on some page other than rls-ee now?
<bdmurray> vorlon: no
<juliank> no, still on rls-ee
<vorlon> ah ok
<juliank> #topic Release incoming bugs (bionic)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (bionic)
<juliank> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<juliank> Let's move to bb
<juliank> No bugs!
<bdmurray> Could bug 1726930 be about the wrong package?
<ubottu> bug 1726930 in laptop-mode-tools (Ubuntu Bionic) "System fails to start (boot) on battery due to read-only root file-system" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1726930
<juliank> not sure
<vorlon> they were mucking with acpi_os settings? pass
<juliank> vorlon: "previously"
<juliank> that sounds fine to me
<vorlon> it's a low-signal bug report
<vorlon> let's not spend time on it here
<juliank> In any case l-m-t upstream is on the bug, so let him deal with it
<bdmurray> got it
<juliank> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<juliank> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<xnox> i uploaded new apache2
<xnox> it should be better
<juliank> ok
<juliank> the rest seems boring
<juliank> #topic IKEA (chair selection)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: IKEA (chair selection)
<sil2100> ;D
<bdmurray> Goldilocks should select the chair
<juliank> game of throne
<cyphermox> random?
<cyphermox> or I'll do it
<juliank> I think everyone happily accepts your sacrifice
<cyphermox> joy!
<juliank> I'll take that as no objections
<juliank> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<juliank> Anything else?
<vorlon> nothing from me
<gaughen> juliank, nothing from me
<gaughen> thank you juliank!
<bdmurray> me!
<bdmurray> What about mlocate and command-not-found?
<juliank> bdmurray: Was that about hiding one of the locates?
<bdmurray> juliank: yeah
<juliank> bdmurray: I did not follow that closely, where was that discussed?
<bdmurray> juliank: our internal mailing list
<juliank> Ah
<juliank> So, yes, mlocate should probably the only thing shown by c-n-f
<bdmurray> juliank: I didn't see an easy way to do that
<juliank> Could just hack that into the cnf update thingy to ignore locate
<bdmurray> Yeah, that's the only idea I had.
<juliank> Modifying c-n-f at least means that we don't have a delta
<juliank> So, anything else?
<bdmurray> It'll just be hard to locate the change!
<bdmurray> Nope, that's it.
<juliank> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 13 15:48:13 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-06-13-15.03.moin.txt
<juliank> thanks everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-09
<cpaelzer_> doko: ddstreet: sarnold: jamespage: joeubuntu: didrocks: pre-warming the campfire
<ddstreet> o/
<didrocks> itâs raining outside, needs a lot of heat for the fire to not extinguish itself :)
<sarnold> good morning
<sarnold> aye, raining here too
<cpaelzer_> let's get this party started
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  9 14:31:14 2020 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic:
<cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cpaelzer> well, we had none - that was quick
<cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: current component mismatches
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
<cpaelzer> libnma is filed (we get to that later)
<cpaelzer> kazoo was on jamespage so we wait until he tells us what to do
<cpaelzer> jeepney is open and processed as well
<cpaelzer> nothing new to dicuss in here today (IMHO)
<cpaelzer> speak up if you disagree
<cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: New MIRs
<cpaelzer> this has some content today
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-secretstorage/+bug/1861268
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1861268 in jeepney (Ubuntu) "[MIR] jeepney" [Medium,New]
<cpaelzer> known and active, the change was that we have a packe in propsoed affected by it
<cpaelzer> this way update-excuses will know about it
<cpaelzer> nothing changed - still on seucrity atm
<cpaelzer> real new one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libnma/+bug/1881906
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1881906 in libnma (Ubuntu) "[MIR] libnma" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> filed by seb128
<didrocks> desktop-related, Iâm taking it
<cpaelzer> thanks didrocks
<cpaelzer> thre is some disambiguation needed, I just made a small update
<cpaelzer> but knowing it is with you is nice
<cpaelzer> thanks
<cpaelzer> #topic Incomplete bugs / questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Incomplete bugs / questions
<cpaelzer> the list had no bumps since last week
<cpaelzer> skipping ...
<cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Any other business?
<cpaelzer> ok, in case there is anything else or if I've run over (trying to give you back some time) anything let me know
<sarnold> python-rtslib-fb ..
<cpaelzer> you did ack it with some minor todos
<sarnold> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ceph-iscsi/+bug/1854362 -- I thought I set the fields correctly when done with security review
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1854362 in urwid (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ceph-iscsi, tcmu, python-configshell-fb, python-rtslib-fb, urwid, targetcli-fb" [Undecided,In progress]
<cpaelzer> sarnold: I have already shoved the todos to rafaeldtinoco
<cpaelzer> who is interested in the overall LIO stack
<sarnold> aha :) you're just ahead of me then :)
<cpaelzer> no you are good, we could update the bug to reflect that
<sarnold> I just wanted to double-check I got the metadata fields set correctly
<cpaelzer> it would be correct to be "ok to pass"
<cpaelzer> if your requested tasks are optional the states are correct
<sarnold> they didn't feel worth blocking, but they would be nice..
<cpaelzer> yep that is how understdood them
<sarnold> thanks
<cpaelzer> ok anything else?
<didrocks> nothing for me
<cpaelzer> ok counting out, we stop at 107 today - if anyone recognizes the sequence you get a remote hug for free
<cpaelzer> 1
<cpaelzer> 6
<cpaelzer> 21
<cpaelzer> 107
<cpaelzer> that's it
<cpaelzer> see you
<sarnold> tschuess :)
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  9 14:39:46 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-09-14.31.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all :)
<didrocks> thx all!
<sarnold> cpaelzer: wow. I've never heard of this one before. let's just hope the next meeting doesn't end only when you say the next number in the sequence :)
<didrocks> 107 is puzzling indeedâ¦ :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-11
<bdmurray> o/
<waveform> o/
<rbalint> o/
<juliank> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 11 15:01:41 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
 * vorlon waves
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform slyon)
<bdmurray> waveform vorlon bdmurray slyon sil2100 mwhudson tdaitx xnox doko infinity juliank rbalint
<bdmurray> waveform: !
<waveform> * Finished camera support packaging (LP: #1883111)
<waveform> * Bumped firmware package (LP: #1883109)
<waveform> * Redesigned pibootctl parser...
<waveform> - handle 2nd-stage firmware selection in config.txt only
<waveform> - remember filters applied to each setting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1883111 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] raspberrypi-userland" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1883111
<waveform> * Working on new configuration writer for pibootctl which re-applies remembered filters
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1883109 in linux-firmware-raspi2 (Ubuntu) "Merge firmware 20200601 from raspbian" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1883109
<waveform> * Worked on uc20 boot design
<waveform> * Clarified camera tasks
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * was out last week and on Tuesday
<vorlon>  * archive work: removal processing, including for unblocking +1 maintenance
<vorlon>  * email catchup
<vorlon>  * meetings, meetings
<vorlon>  * various merges
<vorlon> (done)
<bdmurray> updated retracer services to have a MemoryLimit set
<bdmurray> tested / verified the fix in staging & production
<bdmurray> review / merge of apport MP regarding ubuntu-bug $snapname
<bdmurray> fixed some issues (pep8, build-deps) with the above
<bdmurray> review of ubuntu-release-notes project bugs
<bdmurray> wrote a fix for update-manager bug LP: #1878500
<bdmurray> worked on fixing u-s-s bug LP: #1878694
<bdmurray> reported systemd documentation bug LP: #1882596
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1878500 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "ValueError: package does not exist when using ubuntu-bug update-manager" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1878500
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1878694 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-security-status checks esm-infra for ESM Apps" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1878694
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1882596 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd.unit(5) incorrectly refers to systemd.syntax(5)" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1882596
<bdmurray> some work on ubuntu-security-status
<bdmurray> SRU verification of LP: #1427600, LP: #1774843, LP: #1826213
<bdmurray> SRU special reviews of netplan, cloudinit, alsa-ucm-conf
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1427600 in apport (Ubuntu Xenial) "apport-unpack: ValueError: ['UserGroups'] has no binary content" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1427600
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1774843 in Apport "apport python exception for python versions which python-apt is not built on" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774843
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1826213 in update-manager (Ubuntu Focal) "/usr/bin/update-manager:AttributeError:/usr/bin/update-manager@118:start_update:start_available:refresh_cache:update" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826213
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> slyon is out
<bdmurray> sil2100 is out
<bdmurray> tdaitx is out
<bdmurray> xnox: its you then
<xnox> sent +1 maintenance report
<xnox> progress on cd-boot-images split into arch;all images
<xnox> progress on https uefi boot (meetings / edk2 upload)
<xnox> progress on dropping d-i dependencies from debian-cd & ubiquity
<xnox> working with doko on missing CET features
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko>  - start working on CET issues
<doko>  - uploaded glibc with CET backport
<doko>  - looking at interaction of -flto and -fcf-protection (unfinished)
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * off tomorrow, swapping for today's holiday
<juliank> * grub (LP: #1878541, LP: #1878705, LP: #1882663)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1878541 in snapd "Grub fails to load kernel from squashfs if mem < 1500mb" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1878541
<juliank> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1878705 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Fix multiple initrds support in grub.conf" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1878705
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1882663 in grub2 (Ubuntu Focal) "Specify flavour ordering" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1882663
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * merged systemd with a few extra fixes
<rbalint> * answered LP: #1882596 :-)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1882596 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd.unit(5) incorrectly refers to systemd.syntax(5)" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1882596
<rbalint> * merged gzip
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * LP: #1883082
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1883082 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "Crash when using Package-Whitelist-Strict" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1883082
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-gg-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> I wanted to bring up bug 1883103
<ubottu> bug 1883103 in Ubuntu CD Images "Switch to xorriso causes failure in ppc64 image generation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1883103
<bdmurray> xnox: are you working on this?
<xnox> yes
<bdmurray> so, I'll set it to in progress then
<bdmurray> bug 1881632
<ubottu> bug 1881632 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "esm security updates not reported by apt update-notifier" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1881632
<xnox> we did discuss it last time too, no?
<bdmurray> I'm not sure if there is anything for us to do here.
<bdmurray> bug 1879092
<ubottu> bug 1879092 in glibc (Ubuntu Focal) "gfortran can't use vectorized functions." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1879092
<doko> that's fixed in groovy, and going to focal with the glibc CET update
<juliank> eww
<vorlon> there's a glibc CET update happening?
<bdmurray> So can somebody close the groovy task
<vorlon> (bug #?)
<rbalint> doko, let's collect the sru fixes for glibc
<bdmurray> I think he said that in his status
<doko> bdmurray: no, it's done by migration
<bdmurray> doko: oh so its fix committed then and not fix relesed
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> (but no bug number :)
<bdmurray> should we card the focal work if there are multiple things to SRU?
<doko> bdmurray: it's in -proposed. if you want a status change for that, it should be tooled ;p
<rbalint> bdmurray, absolutely
<bdmurray> bug 1831789
<ubottu> bug 1831789 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Add "dis_ucode_ldr" to linux boot options for Recovery Mode" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831789
<bdmurray> let's go ahead and card that
<bdmurray> dbus is not ours
<mclemenceau> got it
<bdmurray> bug 1883040
<ubottu> bug 1883040 in syslinux (Ubuntu) "groovy daily won't boot anymore on some older BIOS boxes" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1883040
<bdmurray> So let's target and card that
<rbalint> +1
<bdmurray> moving on to rls ff
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1865515
<ubottu> bug 1865515 in shim-signed (Ubuntu) "Chainbooting from grub over the network to local shim breaks chain of trust" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1865515
<bdmurray> vorlon: have you looked at this?
<vorlon> bdmurray: somewhat
<bdmurray> Is there anything for Foundations here?
<vorlon> but I think I was passing the buck to other people
<vorlon> we do need to keep on top of this until it's resolved
<vorlon> and there's probably a bug in shim/grub
<vorlon> but also I think MAAS is still chainloading the wrong thing
<bdmurray> Okay, let's target and card this
<mclemenceau> ok
<bdmurray> bug 1879305 needs carding
<ubottu> bug 1879305 in subiquity (Ubuntu) "[UBUNTU 20.04] Subiquity installer cannot find dasd device" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1879305
<bdmurray> bug 1867675
<ubottu> bug 1867675 in glibc (Ubuntu) "Install failure for libc6 2.31-0ubuntu6 on armhf" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1867675
<mclemenceau> carded for subiquity
<bdmurray> thanks
<bdmurray> bug 1867424
<ubottu> bug 1867424 in base-files (Ubuntu) "motd-news transmitting private hardware data without consent or knowledge in background" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1867424
<bdmurray> we'll let vorlon handle this
<bdmurray> Okay, I think that's all we have time for this week
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<vorlon> [LINK] https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/groovy/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> some stuff hanging here for quite a while
<vorlon> golang-defaults, was anyone on this?
<bdmurray> you were on the 28th
<vorlon> hah
<bdmurray> "probably a false-positive on autopkgtests since this is a minor package change only; I'll investigate"
<vorlon> yeah a simple retry didn't fix it
<vorlon> so I'm going to have to punt on this and let someone else take it
<vorlon> maybe mwhudson
<vorlon> util-linux is still a riscv64 build failure
<vorlon> bdmurray: you have this one still?
<bdmurray> I'm back on +1 so sure
<vorlon> hmph
<vorlon> +1 maint is not for your own team's stuff :
<vorlon> :)
<vorlon> python-secretstorage is an MIR, known, skipping
<vorlon> vim is another riscv64 failure and is mine
<vorlon> fonts-dejavu needs revdeps to stop using the transitional package
<vorlon> that was xnox's, he gets to keep it
<xnox> vorlon:  still not done? i thought there is _everything_ for it in the sponsorship queue
<vorlon>     * s390x: blobandconquer, mytharchive, mythbrowser, mythexport, mythgame, mythimport, mythmusic, mythnews, mythtv-backend, mythtv-common, mythtv-dbg, mythtv-frontend, mythtv-transcode-utils, mythweather, mythzoneminder
<vorlon> xnox: ^^ those are the uninstallabilities with new fonts-dejavu
<vorlon> xnox: you had taken bzip2 last time, you ok to keep working on that?
<rbalint> lambda-align2 needs bin package removals LP: #1882832
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1882832 in lambda-align2 (Ubuntu) "Please remove !amd64 binaries of 2.0.0-2build1 from groovy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1882832
<xnox> yes
<vorlon> no one appears to have been assigned to gzip yet but rbalint mentions having merged it
<vorlon> rbalint: will you follow through?
<rbalint> it is mine, on it
<rbalint> needs the removal ^^
 * vorlon nods
<vorlon> numpy, waiting on some new tests from a few revdeps; should migrate soon \o/
<mclemenceau> yay!
<vorlon> autopkgtest has LP: #1881504 open as an excuses bug but that is entirely unrelated to the autopkgtest package
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1881504 in gzip (Ubuntu) "cross-testing essential packages fails" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1881504
<rbalint> vorlon, it is related to gzip
<vorlon> rbalint: yeah and it's wontfix, I'm already hinting the gzip failure :)
<rbalint> vorlon, :-\, but ok
<vorlon> I'll look at gscan2pdf/arm64, it's a flaky test at best
<vorlon> so that's me for autopkgtest
<vorlon> man-db + ubuntu-image/s390x
<vorlon> who can take?
<vorlon> juliank: ?
<juliank> I'm still doing the dpkg + make-dfsg stuff and also need to sort out apt
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> tdaitx: ?
<vorlon> ah tdaitx isn't here today
<vorlon> mclemenceau: you can have it
<mclemenceau> will do!
<vorlon> then there's some perl stuff just waiting to migrate
<vorlon> apt, juliank you say you're on this?
<juliank> yep
<vorlon> libarchive vs genext2fs/s390x
<vorlon> doko: can you take this one?
<doko> vorlon: if that takes priority over the CET issues, ok
<vorlon> doko: I don't believe we have a due date for CET
<vorlon> but proposed-migration is supposed to be zeroed weekly ;)
<doko> ok
<vorlon> patchutils vs devscripts, probably trivial, I'll take
<vorlon> dpkg is juliank
<juliank> note that this also has a failing devscripts, so we might overlap
<vorlon> python-attrs vs python-canmatrix/s390x, I'll look
<vorlon> and juliank also said he's got make-dfsg
<juliank> yup
<vorlon> and then we get into things waiting for autopkgtests
<vorlon> so let's stop there
<juliank> python3.8 and sqlite3 don't wait
<juliank> um
<juliank> systemd not sqlite3
<vorlon> regardless
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> It looks like some people will be out tomorrow
<bdmurray> anything else?
<vorlon> not from me
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 11 15:59:49 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-11-15.01.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks!
<rbalint> i'll be out tomorrow and on Monday
