#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-08
<mjg59> 4==
<mjg59> Argh.
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-13
<mdz> Keybuk: I received an SMS from a number that I don't recognize saying that they won't be able to make the tech board meeting due to being on a plane
<Keybuk> what's the country code?
<mdz> Keybuk: so shall we do this, or punt to the next meeting?
<mdz> this isn't necessarily tech board stuff, I suppose, but we do need to talk about it
<Keybuk> we can have a chat about it, sure
<Keybuk> only the one thing on the agenda?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Something which will pass for a tech board meeting
<mdz> yep
<Keybuk> suppose we better grab a couple of people
<Keybuk> I can sense this is going to be of record length
<daniels> Keybuk: er, no, hoary kickoff meeting
<mdz> elmo: the only thing we need to discuss is how to manage the ongoing merges of new packages from Debian
<Keybuk> daniels: what was last week, dude
<thom> daniels: the other direction
<elmo> mdz: ?
<mdz> elmo: Debian, big place with lots of packages
<elmo> mdz: ?
<mdz> elmo: ...
<thom> *giggle*
<mdz> Keybuk: so anyway, what kind of shape are the tools in for use on an ongoing basis?
<daniels> elmo: 
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> well, as I understand things
<Keybuk> packages we haven't modified, elmo's magic will pull from Debian
<mdz> Keybuk: is it feasible to automate at least the generation of the best-effort merges, and file bugs for their review?
<Keybuk> yeah, I think so
<Keybuk> if he can flag that a package we've modified has a new Debian version, my stuff can pull previous and current Debian, try to apply the diff to warty, and do it's dropped stuff
<Keybuk> automating a bug filing ... I have no idea about ... I imagine it's doable though
<mdz> Keybuk: there's a module in debzilla for filing bugs in bugzilla; it's dead easy
<Keybuk> should we flag them all, or just the ones which the debian patch doesn't apply to?
<mdz> based on the last round, i think at least an eyeball review is called for
<mdz> and a test build
<Keybuk> yeah, I tend to agree
<Keybuk> there were a few where patch did odd things
<mdz> though, these are much smaller
<elmo> Keybuk: how do you want me to flag that to you?
<mdz> the ones where it did truly odd things seemed to cause build failures anyway, so they'd be caught
<mdz> having elmo's stuff send notifications sounds hairy; maybe Keybuk's stuff should just pull a Sources file from Debian on its own
<Keybuk> the main issue is that I'm running on rookery
<elmo> mdz: I can ultra-trivially dump the lorraine output to a text file which keybuk can wget?
<elmo> Keybuk: why's that an issue?
<mdz> elmo: works for me
<Keybuk> just a text file of source package names elmo thinks Debian have newer than warty would be ideal
<Kamion> sorry I'm late
<mdz> Keybuk: as part of your output, can you include a debdiff from Hoary->the merged version?
<Keybuk> yeah, if elmo installs that on rookery <g>
<mdz> good point
<mdz> I've been nagging him for a week to put it on jackass :-P
<elmo> err, you so haven't
<elmo> anyway, it's on rookery
<mdz> Oct 29 12:41:07 <mdz>   elmo: debdiff on jackass, please?
<Keybuk> would you prefer debdiff from base -> {old hoary, new hoary} as well?  instead of just ordinary patch?
<elmo> mdz: ... one IRC message [that I missed]  is nagging for a week?
<mdz> elmo: I could dig up more :-)
<mdz> Oct 26 15:25:44 <mdz>   could I get debdiff+interdiff on jackass?
<Keybuk> mdz: so, this debzilla thing, what's that?
<mdz> Keybuk: that's the thing which creates bugs in bugzilla based on debbugs bugs
<elmo> do you want just main, or main +universe?
<mdz> Keybuk: matt.zimmerman@canonical.com--2004/debzilla--mainline--0
<mdz> elmo: ideally both, but filterable
<mdz> e.g., mark them as main or not in the text file
<mdz> so we could generate the output for universe, but not file bugs
<elmo> ok
<mdz> Keybuk: work for you?
<Keybuk> yup
<mdz> Keybuk: yeah, base->new hoary is good too
<mdz> I'm hoping those will be small and easily reviewable
<Kamion> has the problem that we often don't have the right base been fixed?
<Keybuk> yeah, hopefully
<Kamion> that bit me with a lot of the last round of merges
<Keybuk> Kamion: theoretically it's seen the right base now :p
<Keybuk> but yeah, I'll write some code to string ubuntu* and look on snapshot for that
<Kamion> Keybuk: certainly won't've done for some of the ones I'm doing
<Kamion> ok
<Keybuk> string? strip!
<Keybuk> that's actually easy ... the only reason I didn't do it before is because I'm fallible and didn't think of that <g>
<elmo> keybuk: jackass/lorraine/needs-merged.txt
<elmo> missing universe atm. but is that okay?
<Keybuk> cool
<Keybuk> yup
<Keybuk> I assume it'll be s/main/universe/ :p
<elmo> for universe ones, yes
<elmo> it's "%s %s" % (pkg, component)
<mdz> so I guess we'll find out in the course of doing this, how much manual work it will truly be
<mdz> I think it will be fairly reasonable
<mdz> but hopefully just enough to provide the necessary incentives to push our changes upstream :-)
<mdz> speaking of which, herbert's kernel-package stem patch needs to go upstream
<Keybuk> what are we doing wrt to the current patches, btw?
<Keybuk> have they all been pushed, or do we need to push some, etc.
<mdz> we don't have those figures
<Kamion> I've been going over d-i stuff as I upload the merges, pushing upstream as appropriate
<mdz> of course we do have a fair volume of stuff that upstream isn't going to want
<mdz> maybe after hoary when we have better tools, we can do a comprehensive review and make sure that everything has been submitted upstream
<Kamion> indeed, by far the greatest volume of the d-i patches is branding
<mdz> maybe we'll even have someplace to store that metadata :-P
<mdz> and mark patches as should-go-upstream or not
<mdz> anything else to discuss as part of the meeting?
<Kamion> seeds?
<mdz> good call
<Keybuk> I'm going to finish brutalising hct's cli today ... will work on the continual merge thing tomorrow
<Kamion> (viz., having some)
<mdz> should we temporarily use some other repository for the master seed lists until the wiki is fixed?
<Kamion> I'm happy with a world-writable text file on rookery, personally :-)
<mdz> they could be part of germinate's source tree
<Keybuk> we could always use the old wiki?
<Kamion> Keybuk: that might be a plan
<mdz> Keybuk: only if we can enable changes on a per-page basis
<mdz> what about a group-writable arch archive?
<Kamion> as long as we can get at it from {my dev boxes, little, jackass} that'd work
<Kamion> I don't think it should be part of germinate's source tree
<mdz> is the wiki really the best place for it long-term?
<mdz> maybe when we were editing it every day, it was
<mdz> we can keep proposals in the wiki, and move them into the official seeds by other means
<mdz> needs a change history -> arch
<elmo> the nice thing about the wiki is it was a http get for germinate
<elmo> or anything else that wanted to fuck around with seeds
<Kamion> elmo: we can do that with arch too
<mdz> a tla get isn't much different, no?
<Kamion> elmo: dump a checkout on rookery
<mdz> can't tla dump a file for you in one step?
<elmo> Kamion: yeah, true
<mdz> even if not, a checkout isn't a big deal, I suppose
<Kamion> fewer dependencies would be good, but I don't see a problem with having a cronned tla update on people/~cjwatson/seeds/ or whatever
<mdz> I don't see a problem with germinate doing a tla get
<Kamion> it's slow enough already :P
<mdz> yeah, exactly :-)
<mdz> what should we call the archive?
<Kamion> and where should it go? do we want non-canonical staff to be able to write to it?
<Kamion> (I assume the answer is "eventually, yes")
<mdz> right
<mdz> but it isn't a big deal if they can't quite yet
<mdz> it's not something which changes often, and we can propagate things easily enough when there's a consensus
<Kamion> so just chinstrap as before then, I guess
<mdz> yeah
<mdz> more a question of a personal archive vs. something else
<mdz> Kamion: fine with me if you want to keep them in your archive next to germinate
<Kamion> ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/seeds--warty--0 etc.?
<Kamion> mdz: that's a bit technically awkward for group-writability, because my archive on chinstrap is only a mirror
<Kamion> and y'all don't have logins on my home server
<mdz> ah, separate then, I suppose
<mdz> does anyone know if we have an official naming scheme for public archives from the arch guys?
<Keybuk> we do for imports, yes
<mdz> anything which we could apply here as well, for consistency?
<Keybuk> <product>@arch.ubuntu.com[--<source>-<year>] /<source>--<branch>--<version>
<Keybuk> Kamion's idea seemed sound to me
<mdz> the ubuntu-devel one?
<Keybuk> yeah
<mdz> works for me
<Kamion> if there are no objections, I can create that after the meeting, import warty's seeds, and tag them onto hoary
<mdz> we can always change it if the arch secret police object
<mdz> Kamion: sounds good
<mdz> we have a bunch of seed changes to review and effect
<mdz> I have a list from the kickoff meeting
<mdz> and I believe there is stuff in the wiki for hoary
<mdz> arything else to discuss?
<Keybuk> not from me
<mdz> ok, adjourned
<mdz> thanks, guys
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Community Council Meeting, 2004-11-09 1600UTC
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-14
<MarioMeyer> Seveas > on?
<desrt> is it too late? :)
<whitesoft> Hello
<whitesoft> I'm RolandoBlanco
<whitesoft> I did can't sombody know what happend:
<whitesoft> ?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 15 Nov 20:00 UTC:  TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 15 Nov 20:00 UTC:  TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 22:00 UTC:  Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 15 Nov 20:00 UTC:  TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Nov  08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 22 Nov 22:00 UTC:  Community Council
<MarioMeyer> heya Seveas 
<Seveas> oi
<MarioMeyer> posso pvt?
<Seveas> can you repeat that in english?
<MarioMeyer> can i pvt u?
<MarioMeyer> :P
<Seveas> sure
<MarioMeyer> u said "oi", i tought u knew portuguese :P
<Seveas> nope, not a word ;)
<mdke> sure it's a word!
<mdke> means "hello, how are you?"
<MarioMeyer> :P
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-15
<Simira> mako: ping
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-17
<Belutz> hi all
<highvoltage> hi Belutz 
<Belutz> hi highvoltage 
<highvoltage> meeting this morning?
<Belutz> have you seen jsgotangco?
<Belutz> i don't think there's a meeting today
<rob1> ho there isn't
<highvoltage> i just woke up.
<highvoltage> he doesn't seem  to be on-line.
<rob1> s/ho/no
<highvoltage> nope, his jabber is off too.
<Belutz> do you know any ubuntu member near indonesia?
<highvoltage> Belutz: how did you get thet ubuntu/member/belutz mask?
<Belutz> there's a debian conference in indonesia, and i thought it would be nice if someone from ubuntu could come
<rob1> highvoltage, you have to be a member
<Belutz> highvoltage, ask Seveas for the mask
<highvoltage> rob1: i am
<Belutz> rob1, highvoltage is already a member :)
<highvoltage> Belutz: ok, thanks
<rob1> cool, just ask Seveas then :)
<rob1> apparetly the next lot will be done around the 22nd
<Belutz> yup
<highvoltage> the next lot?
<rob1> he does them in batches
<highvoltage> ah, the irc masks.
<MarioMeyer> Belutz> there was a member from indonesia accepted on the last meeting
<Belutz> MarioMeyer, yes, that was me
<MarioMeyer> :P
<Belutz> :p
<MarioMeyer> my bad :P
<Belutz> np :)
<highvoltage> i think Belutz, rob1 and I were memberised at the last meeting.
<rob1> yep
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-18
<fgfg> seus bixa
<fgfg> windows rox
<fgfg> bando de gay
<fgfg> ubuntu eh no cu d vcs
<fgfg> g
<fgfg> hgh
<fgfg> fg
<fgfg> hf
<fgfg> gh
<fgfg> fgh
<fgfg> g
<fgfg> jh
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> uj
<fgfg> g
<fgfg> f
<fgfg> h
<fgfg> df
<fgfg> g
<fgfg> f
<fgfg> hg
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> h
<fgfg> gj
<fgfg> u
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> y
<fgfg> t
<fgfg> hg
<fgfg> f
<fgfg> hfg
<fgfg> h
<fgfg> fg
<fgfg> h
<fgfg> g
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> u
<fgfg> i
<fgfg> uy
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> gh
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> g
<fgfg> f
<fgfg> g
<fgfg> b
<fgfg> fg
<fgfg> h
<fgfg> y
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> u
<fgfg> y
<fgfg> j
<fgfg> gh
<fgfg> hj
<rob1> yes, your an idiot.
<MarioMeyer> lol
<rob1> who can I talk to regarding member ubuntu.com email addresses?
<Burglaptop> rob1, it already exists
<Burglaptop> rob1, on lp, look at your name, under details
<Burglaptop> then email $yourname@ubuntu.com
<rob1> with the $ sign?
<Burglaptop> no
<Burglaptop> for example, I am cburger@ubuntu.com
<rob1> can one email himself?
<Burglaptop> let me email myself
<Burglaptop> let me email you, but lets also get out of this channel
<rob1> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-20
<Keybuk> so, err, anyone here? :)
<bmonty_laptop> Hi Keybuk 
<slomo> hi Keybuk, bmonty_laptop :)
<Keybuk> is it my timezone math that's screwy, or everyone else's? :p
<slomo> probably everybody else's... maybe the didn't notice that dst is over ;)
<bmonty_laptop> my timezone math says it is 2000 UTC
<Keybuk> so hi, and welcome to the quietest and least quorate Technical Board meeting in history
<dholbach> hi :)
<slomo> hi dholbach :)
<dholbach> slomo: didn't you say you'd turn up an hour later?
<Keybuk> let me just send a few text messages :P
<slomo> dholbach: 10 minutes... yes... but i was faster :)
<dholbach> ah ok :)
<dholbach> Keybuk: how does the messaging go? :)
<ogra> heh
<Keybuk> my phone is being uncooperative
* sivang is here
<sivang> 20:00 on my UTC as well
<Keybuk> Mark is currently somewhere between Frankfurt and Tunis apparently
<Keybuk> I do hope he's not texting on his plane
<sivang> interesting :)
<Keybuk> Matthew has had a bad day and has asked to send apologies
<sivang> Keybuk: lol, what does he have in Tunis ? ;-)
<Keybuk> (Garrett, that is)
<Keybuk> sivang: Open Source conference thing coming up
<sivang> cool
<dholbach> seems like "no tb meeting" this time, hm?
<dholbach> i think we should at least decide on a new date?
<bmonty_laptop> :(
<Keybuk> I don't think mdz has long got back from Montreal, via other places, so he might be in bed
<ogra> Keybuk, did you ping mdz ?
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> ok, let's abandon for now
<Keybuk> I'll send everyone a further message asking when they think we can retry
<slomo> ok
<sivang> so we're adjonred? :-)
<sivang> (man that was faster then a speeding bullet)
<ogra> Keybuk, we have dapper dev meeting on thursday anyway
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:dholbach] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | ?? ??? ??:?? UTC:  TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Nov  08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 18 Nov 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 22 Nov 22:00 UTC:  Community Council
<pitti> hi
<Riddell> pitti: you missed the meeting
<pitti> hm?
<pitti> oh, crap
<pitti> the wiki said 2000 UTC
<Riddell> pitti: was was an hour ago.  nobody else turned up so it didn't happen
<pitti> oh, right
* pitti is still used to DST
* pitti readjusts his mind for the current UTC offset
<pitti> well, the agenda was empty anyway
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-13
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 15 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 15 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-14
<zarul> who is responsible in setting up the mailing list?
<UTENTE> hello
<Derchomat> 
<Simira> dholbach: when is lunch? now, or in an hour?
<dholbach> Simira: not sure
<licio> now is dinner.. auahauah
<dholbach> Simira: in ~1h
<Simira> dholbach: ok thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-15
<mruiz> ping Seveas 
<mruiz> Hi. Someone know when will be the next Community Council?
<dsas> !schedule UTC
<dsas> mruiz: Someone mentioned the 17th of November. I can't see it in any of the usual places though.
<dsas> it's usually at wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<mruiz> thanks dsas 
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-16
<jjesse> @schedule la
<jjesse> @schedule pacific
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Canada/Pacific: 22 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 10:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 08:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 04:00: Edubuntu
<lfittl> @schedule Vienna
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 19:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<Keyseir> @schedule est
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 22 Nov 15:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 13:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 11:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu
<Keyseir> @time
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 16 2006, 12:47:11 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 6 days
<Keyseir> @now timezone
<Keyseir> @now est
<Ubugtu> Current time in EST: November 16 2006, 07:47:29 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 6 days
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-17
<James> Hello all :)
<James> I would like to make a request for a "UK" ubuntu Loco Team
<James> Requested here : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1771033#post1771033
<Seveas> James, there already is a uk locoteam
<James> Oh is there? I didnt know that. Well, since I live in Manchester (uk) could I run a Manchester (UK) team?
<Manohulu> hello tout le monde...
<obenbohne> hi Seveas!
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 22 Nov 14:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu
<sbalneav> @schedule winnipeg
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Winnipeg: 22 Nov 14:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu
<sbalneav> Cool
<nixternal> heh
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 19:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<sbalneav> Soooo, meeting?
<Seveas> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 17 2006, 20:08:25 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 4 days
<Seveas> "Next meeting: Edubuntu in 4 days"
<sbalneav> !
<sbalneav> Heh, RichEd was saying in #edubuntu that there was a meeting now.
<sbalneav> Maybe he was talking about an allhands meeting.
<Seveas> that could be
<sbalneav> Ok, I'll shuffle off to buffalo then.
<sbalneav> Cheers!
<nixternal> you know what, i think he is referring to the allhands meeting in SF
<nixternal> they are still at Google correct?
<Seveas> no
<nixternal> wel, they are still in SF ;)
<Seveas> that is true
<obenbohne> hi Seveas
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-19
<lguerra> @schedule bogota
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Bogota: 22 Nov 15:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 13:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 11:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-14
<heno_> pedro_, bdmurray, ogasawara: ping
<bdmurray> howdy
<pedro_> heno_: pong!
 * ogasawara waves
<heno_> o/
<sourcercito> hi there
<heno_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:01. The chair is heno_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno_> welcome all!
<heno_> we have an agenda here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<liw> I have nothing to add to the agenda
<heno_> [TOPIC] Spec status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status
<heno_> is everyone who has specs comfortable with getting them written up and with the review process?
<liw> I'm new to the review process, but I'll ask questions if and when I have any
<ogasawara> is there a wiki describing the review process somewhere?
<bdmurray> With regards to an informational spec is it necessary to write up the spec?  With the QA schedule it seems a bit redundant.
<heno_> the review team is listed here https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-reviewers
<liw> my DesktopAutomatedTests is basically written, I'm just going to review it myself before submitting it for review; SelfTestingDesktop is still to be written, but since it's a corollary of the other one, it should be pretty quick to do
<heno_> you should ask one of them to review when you feel it's complete
<heno_> I don't see a wiki page
<ogasawara> heno_:  I assume we should submit for review by the end of the week?
<heno_> this should have been covered by the UDS howto I guess
<heno_> ogasawara: yes, that would be good, to allow for some ping-pong
<heno_> stgraber: did you make it to the meeting? you have several specs needing review also
<heno_> stgraber: (let me know if we should have a post-UDS conversation about this)
<heno_> ok, that seems clear; moving on
<heno_> [ACTION] everyone should complete the spec formulations and submit them for review by the end of this week
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone should complete the spec formulations and submit them for review by the end of this week
<heno_> [TOPIC] Feedback on Hardy QA schedule
<MootBot> New Topic:  Feedback on Hardy QA schedule
<heno_> Brian asked for some feedback on the QA schedule on the list
<ogasawara> the schedule looked fine to me
<heno_> me too
<pedro_> yep good for me too
<heno_> bdmurray: will you pass it on the the release team next?
<liw> good for me too, even if it doesn't have a date for when I'm allowed to report fourteen thousand bugs automatically
<bdmurray> heno_: sure - they don't have a mailing list right?
<heno_> I don't think they do, no
<bdmurray> pedro_: looking at it again I seem to have missed forwarding bugs upstream that would be until about week 8 right?
<heno_> liw: I guess that would be when we can trust it to DTRT
<liw> heno, sure, I was trying to be funny anyway
<heno_> bdmurray: you mean Gutsy bugs? I assume we forward bugs continuously in the dev release
<pedro_> i don't think so
<bdmurray> heno_: We discussed forwarding being more helpful until syncs stop
<bdmurray> s/more helpful/useful/
<bdmurray> after which we need to patch our version of the package
<heno_> bdmurray: are they considered less useful closer to release because upstream are less likely to fix or because of ubuntu-specific changes
<heno_> gnome is a special case that gets synced quite late I guess
<heno_> liw: sure. are there automated-test milestones that should go on a regular schedule though I wonder?
<heno_> it might be difficult to tell in our first cycle of doing it
<bdmurray> heno_: because after import freeze the packages become more divirgent so while upstream may have fixed the bug they may have also done a lot of other things that we can't sync after import freeze
<liw> heno, I don't think so, for the first cycle
<heno_> ok
<heno_> bdmurray: ok. I guess at that point developers will upstream individual issues they feel they need help with
<heno_> [AGREED] Everyone agreed that it was a nice schedule :)
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Everyone agreed that it was a nice schedule :)
<heno_> [TOPIC] Gutsy bug triage, looking for SRU candidates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Gutsy bug triage, looking for SRU candidates
<bdmurray> I've been doing a fair bit of SRU verification for candidates already identified
<heno_> there is only about a week and a half left of this phase. is it coordinated with the release team WRT for how long we will roll out fixes?
<stgraber> I'm here
<heno_> roughly how many bugs have we identified so far that should get gutsy SRUs?
<bdmurray> The schedule is an indication of our primary focus after this week and a half we will shift to looking more at Hardy
 * heno_ waves to stgraber
<bdmurray> ogasawara: do you have the gutsy verification needed query?
<heno_> are there any gutsy bugs that stick out as esp. high-profile?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: I'll check, just a sec
<heno_> how many are new and how many are ones we didn't mange to fix before release?
<bdmurray> I think I have verified the updates for most of the really high-profile ones
<stgraber> yes, I have 4 specs to work on, I've already talked a bit with _nand about the Tokamak one, I'll try to work on that tomorrow morning (note the "try" as I have a lot of other things to do :))
<stgraber> btw, davmor2 asked me to paste that during the meeting :
<stgraber> 14:16 < davmor2> 1/ would it be better to bug test before the end of the freeze? That way when the freeze is on everything should be stable?
<stgraber> 14:16 < davmor2> 2/ with the schedule there is iso-testing latter on but not at the beginning is that how it is meant to be?
<heno_> stgraber: indeed. let me know if you need help with those
<ogasawara> bdmurray: I don't
<bdmurray> stgraber: The schedule just indicates where our primary focus lies, iso-testing can happen as early as Alpha 1
<ogasawara> bdmurray: but it shouldn't be hard to do
 * bdmurray waits for it
<heno_> 2> by 'ISO testing' here we mean intensive testing with redundant coverage involving the dev team and others
<pedro_> shouldn't be something like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+bugs?field.tag=verification-needed ?
<heno_> whereas earlier we do more spot/sanity checks on ISOs
<bdmurray> pedro_: sure enough
<pedro_> there's also http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<ogasawara> eww, the link I've got in launchpad is long
<bdmurray> I'm working on 17595 atm
<heno_> nice page
<bdmurray> one thing about the lp query is it doesn't show the repository
<heno_> on davmor2's pt. 1, I'm not sure which freeze he is referring to. Things do change after the freeze too though and simple errors can get introduced that are not caught by regular use
<heno_> such as the late change cause the Kubuntu installer to fail
<heno_> which I think was typo-level coding error
<heno_> ok, let's move the the next topic, which is related but needs some discussion
<heno_> [TOPIC] Managing Gutsy and Dapper SRU nominees
<MootBot> New Topic:  Managing Gutsy and Dapper SRU nominees
<heno_> please look at https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+nominations
<heno_> and https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/dapper/+nominations
<bdmurray> The nominations are where anybody decides to nominate a bug for a release right?
<heno_> right
<bdmurray> How or why should they be managed?
<heno_> we need to look at that list regularly to identify good candidates and make sure those reports get triaged
<heno_> so that they can be moved forward to qualify for the SRU process
<heno_> some will be not important enough and the nominations should be rejected
<heno_> do you folks have the LP powers to accept/decline those?
<bdmurray> I think only ubuntu-drivers does
<heno_> which explains why I can
<bdmurray> I can too - for spec stuff at UDS I was added to that team
<heno_> I think the core triage team at least should have those powers
<pedro_> I can't :-(
<bdmurray> One thing about this process that bothers me is anyone can nominate
<heno_> ok, I'll ask for pedro_ and ogasawara to be granted the appropriate LP powers
<ogasawara> thanks
<bdmurray> looking at bug 109882 it is one person with the issue and they nominated the bug
<pedro_> great
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 109882 in fedora "Headphone automute not working" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/109882
<heno_> bdmurray: true, that makes it noisy. but the lists are not extremely long
<ogasawara> bdmurray: heh, was just looking at that too
<bdmurray> ogasawara: does l-b-m have the right version of alsa?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: I think the version of alsa they want might already be in lbm
<bdmurray> jinx you owe me a beer
<ogasawara> bdmurray: checking on it right now
<heno_> the advantage is that it can help bring up important issues
<heno_> provided we look at the list regularly and it doesn't get abused
<heno_> bdmurray: many of those were nominated before the gutsy release, when it made more sense, as that wouldn't be an SRU
<heno_> we should do a one-time run-through after each release to remove those that clearly don't qualify
<heno_> bdmurray: can bughelper help us identify those?
<bdmurray> heno_: I haven't looked at the nomination property of a bug before but will look into it
<heno_> thanks
<heno_> it doesn't look like the point at which it was nominated gets logged automatically
<ogasawara> bdmurray: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-gutsy-lbm.git;a=commit;h=d33c164bb93d09f21fd331a726052b66e40c26ab
<heno_> all: please look out for nominated bugs when looking at gutsy bugs these days and ask me or brian to reject obvious non-SRU candidates
<heno_> I'll do a more explicit run-through of that list next week
<pedro_> ook
<bdmurray> ogasawara: do you want to follow up on the bug and I'll rjeect the nominations?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: sure
<bdmurray> well, that's wacky
<bdmurray> then nominations show up on a per package basis
<heno_> let's revisit the status of this list next week. there are currently 358 bugs on it
<bdmurray> so declining it for gutsy did it for both packages
<bdmurray> which wasn't what I expected
<bdmurray> heno_: we are only concerned about nominations for packages in main right?
<heno_> hm, good question. it would be good to clean the list generally
<heno_> where is the MOTU policy on updates?
<heno_> is it mainly backports?
<bdmurray> I think they incorporated it into the main SRU policy
 * Hobbsee looks in
<heno_> yep, I see it now
<Hobbsee> heno_: pretty much the same as main, although a little less beaurocracy.  new features --> backports, bugfixes --> SRU
 * bdmurray waves to Hobbsee 
<heno_> Hobbsee: ok. who from MOTU could we get to go through that list regularly? the MOTU council perhaps?
<heno_> also, you shouldn't have to be a driver to accept/reject such nominations
<heno_> I'm not sure they belong on that list in the first place
<heno_> from the user's POV it makes sense to nominate packages equally though
<heno_> I'll raise that question on the MOTU list and with various ubuntu drivers
<heno_> [ACTION] mdz to evaluate list of Gutsy nominated bugs and raise questions on the MOTU and devel lists
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to evaluate list of Gutsy nominated bugs and raise questions on the MOTU and devel lists
<bdmurray> heh - 154 nominated bugs are "New"
<heno_> indeed, which is why the QA team has a role to play in an initial screening of the list
<Hobbsee> oh, thisthing doesnt flash when done backwards.
<Hobbsee> bdmurray: hiya!
<Hobbsee> heno_: erm, you only have to be in -release to accept or deny the nominations
<Hobbsee> heno_: sec, let me see the list.  i wasnt following :)
<heno_> some of them will need improving (triaging) soonish, while others are less important and should be pushed to hardy
<bdmurray> Hobbsee: was the universe report helpful at all?
<Hobbsee> bdmurray: it wasnt what i was looking for, but it looks somewhat useful.
<bdmurray> Hobbsee: okay well let me know if you need anything else
<Hobbsee> heno_: ubuntu-universe-sponsors does it usually.
<Hobbsee> bdmurray: will do.  but not at 4am :)
<heno_> Hobbsee: ok, thanks
<Hobbsee> heno_: but there may be another team starting up to do it.  unsure.  will find out in the next week or so
<heno_> [TOPIC] QA team weekly meeting times
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team weekly meeting times
<heno_> always a controversial one :)
<heno_> bdmurray: what time is 16.00 in OR?
<Hobbsee> just do away with the meetings.  problem solved :P
<heno_> we've tried that before :p
<liw> I think these meetings are useful, although they take a bit longer than I'd like
<heno_> ut that was before we had a team really ;)
<liw> it's 09:14 in Oregon (US west coast) right now
<bdmurray> right 1600 was 0800
<heno_> ok, so earlier would not be so good
<bdmurray> yes, that would be bad
<stgraber> wouldn't be good for me neither (would be at school)
<heno_> liw: I agree, we should try to limit them to 1hr.
<liw> I'm not throughly happy about 1600 UTC, but I can live with this (especially, as noted, if we can make them at most 1 hour :)
<heno_> we have alternated times on various meeting in the past, but that's not a great solution either
<liw> yeah, a constant time would be best, makes it easiest to plan ahead
<liw> for me, at least
<pedro_> indeed
<heno_> liw: and 18.00, say, would be worse I take it
<heno_> I'm an evening person, so I don't mind either way
<liw> I'm UTC+2 (UTC+3 during daylight savings time), so 18 UTC would be 20 (or 21), which would mean I won't get anything else done that evening
<stgraber> ^ Would be perfect for me :) but indeed I doubt liw would be happy with it
<liw> especially since Wednesdays are typical days for meeting people socially
<liw> so basically I'm in favor of keeping 1600 UTC
<heno_> ok, with one for and one against, we'll leave it as it is for now
<heno_> sorry stgraber :(
<liw> stgraber, indeed, sorry
<stgraber> ok, well for me as you saw the best case is 17h30 at home, usually it'll be 18h30 and then will miss the meeting
<stgraber> as I was 1minute away from missing my bus :)
<heno_> perhaps we should consider a community meeting sometimes on the weekend
<heno_> let's see how well attended the QA-related sessions are this weekend
<heno_> (arranged by the LoCo teams I think)
<heno_> [AGREED] Leave the meeting time at 16.00 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Leave the meeting time at 16.00 UTC
<heno_> can be revisited later
<heno_> ok, let's stop there
<heno_> thanks everyone for attending!
<heno_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:23.
<pedro_> thanks you!
<liw> heno, thanks for e-mailing the agenda, it was useful, at least to me
<heno_> feel free to email me agenda items during the week. Is sending it out the same morning early enough or should I try for the day before?
<heno_> team-OR ^
<ogasawara> I'd prefer the day before
<heno_> (I'm not sure I could promise that though :) )
<heno_> ok, I'll try :)
<ogasawara> eh, not a big deal ;)
<Goosemoose> Is the meeting for developers only, or can someone about to deploy to 500 computer listen in?
<ogra> Goosemoose, its all public :)
<Goosemoose> ok, thanks
<pochu> @now Madrid
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Madrid: November 14 2007, 20:52:53 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 17 hours 7 minutes
<RichEd> === edubuntu meeting ===
 * RichEd waves to see who is here ?
<stgraber> I'm
 * ogra waves
<RichEd> Just the three of us then ?
 * ajmitch is lurking as usual
<ogra> no sbalneav ...
<RichEd> or LaserJock
<RichEd> mrm ... wanted to explain a bit about the new edubuntu add-on structure ... which we all know about already from UDS
<LaserJock> sorry
<ogra> hey hey :)
<ogra> so RichEd wants to start of tech today :)
<RichEd> LaserJock: glad you are here :)
<RichEd> we need your opinions and valued wisdom (and your healthy dose of skepticism)
<LaserJock> haha
<RichEd> okay so we all know that edubuntu will be a CD2 installed on top of Ubuntu CD 1
<RichEd> so the benefit to us, is that all the "generic operating system" issues will belong to the Distro team ...
<RichEd> freeing us up to look at the education layer on top
<RichEd> what I wanted to ask was ... what are the drawbacks ?
<RichEd> what must we be careful of on the way into this process
<stgraber> testing will also be a lot easier as we'll probably simply ask people testing Ubuntu to then install Edubuntu and quickly test it
<ogra> yeah
<RichEd> ogra: did we work out all the CD issues ... server and desktop ?
<ogra> not yet, we'll do that along the way
<ogra> there are to many bits involved ...
<ogra> for now i need to finish the spec, it has to be complete by next thursday
<LaserJock> drawbacks, IMO, are going to be a bit of confusion to users, what do we do with the LiveCD?, and perhaps shipit unless that is resolved
<ogra> live will persist as iso
<LaserJock> as a Demo CD?
<ogra> well, as is
<LaserJock> is it going to be installable?
<RichEd> LaserJock that's the sort of thing I mean ... ogra needs to be able to gp into the planning with a set of requirements from our user base
<LaserJock> hmm, I really wish we could rip ubiquity out of the LiveCD
<RichEd> s/go/gp/
<ogra> LaserJock, why ?
<LaserJock> ogra: because I think it causes confusion and is another support case
<stgraber> well, I think that we should clearly explain why Edubuntu is now an Add-on to Ubuntu and why it was done that way and make clear that this way we'll be able to focus more on Edubuntu than previously (as for some people it would certainly look like we are working less on Edubuntu as we do less stuff which isn't the case)
<stgraber> argh, me and my long sentences ...
<ogra> well, indeed we need to phrase that properly to not scare off people
<RichEd> stgraber: yes ... we need to be able to get a message out about the benefits of the changes ... there is another change as well to edubuntu distro development structure which we will chat about later.
<ogra> on a sidenote all ltsp functionallity will move to the ubuntu alternate CD
<ogra> as it is in edubuntu today
<RichEd> so we can chat about those togeter later in the meeting
<LaserJock> I just want Edubuntu to be simple
<RichEd> so if we need to be able to describe the "user" requirements:
<RichEd> and make sure they can get the CDs easily and install easily.
<RichEd> so for a desktop user, they'd get Ubuntu CD1 + Edubuntu Add-on CD
<RichEd> for Edubuntu server, what CDs/images would they need oliver ?
<ogra> ubuntu alternate and edubuntu addon or ubuntu server and edubuntu addon, depending on the usecase
<RichEd> and are both of those ubuntu alternate and ubuntu server available from shipit ?
<ogra> no
<ogra> only ubuntu server is
<ogra> alternate was dropped several releases ago
<RichEd> so you're referring to the need for the LTSP packages ?
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> server is on Shipit? I don't remember seeing it
<stgraber> I just checked and wasn't able to find it on shipit
<stgraber> even if I have one of those CD just next to me :)
<ogra> alternate will have the required desktop packages needed for the ltsp desktop and the former edubuntu ltsp installer integration
<ogra> well, if it isnt, i'm sure it will be for hardy
<ogra> server would be the ground for edubuntu-content-server
<RichEd> we should check out the plan there ...
<ogra> or alter also a proxy with webfilter
<ogra> *later
<RichEd> I'll make a note to ask in the "office"
<ogra> we'll need a *lot* of documentation
<LaserJock> I'm a little worried about Edubuntu just dissolving into so many projects
<ogra> its only one project
<ogra> only one real CD
<RichEd> ogra: could you install ubuntu server + download & install LTSP + edubuntu addon to get there ?
<LaserJock> well, but parts are going on various CDs
<ogra> RichEd, rather ubuntu-desktop
<LaserJock> which requires communication with the various teams
<LaserJock> which is something we haven't been very good at in the past
<ogra> LaserJock, edu irrelevant packages like ltsp go where they belong
<LaserJock> yes, but right now Edubuntu == LTSP
<ogra> beyond that all edu related packages go on the edubuntu CD
<RichEd> LaserJock all the support burdens and development burdens move to ubuntu distro
<LaserJock> RichEd: right, that's the problem
<RichEd> that is a huge benefit in terms of where ogra can put his effort
<LaserJock> we're going to be depending a lot on other teams
<LaserJock> which means we need to have very good communication
<LaserJock> and it's more difficult to get a view of what's going on
<ogra> LaserJock, well, would you think apache would belong under edubuntu maintenance if we shipped it on todays edubuntu-server CD ?
<LaserJock> on some level yes
<RichEd> okay ... so let me introduce the "other news" then ... and you'll see the fuller picture ...
<LaserJock> if we ship it we have to make sure it's tested, works, and works the way we think it does
<RichEd> we need to talk all of this through to make sure you core guys are happy and comfortable
<LaserJock> if the server team does something to LTSP that hurts our "typical users" then it's our problem
<LaserJock> regardless of who is actually maintaining it
<RichEd> LaserJock hang on ... this is how it will work ...
<ogra> well, i think that will still largely be me in the future :)
<ogra> but lets listen to RichEd
<RichEd> our overall requirements for education related developement solutions go from education -> distro
<RichEd> and the entire team tackles the education requirement.
<RichEd> so where the need is recognised as being education ... it is allocated to ogra
<RichEd> if it is generic ubuntu related ... then it is allocated through the distro team to the right ubuntu team
<RichEd> so ogra is the Edubuntu Technical Lead
<RichEd> he will define what he needs as a spec for the requirements of the target audience ... and it is tackled as a team job
<ogra> inside the distro team ...
<RichEd> yep ...
 * ajmitch will be glad to see LTSP being used in more than just education
<LaserJock> ok, well that's all good an well from a Canonical/Manager perspective
<LaserJock> but when we're trying to build a developer community
<RichEd> right ... so that is why I started off by saying I want to hear about the drawbacks of what lies ahead ... so we can get them as criteria that need to be satisfied
<LaserJock> and somebody asks how they can help, and we point them to the server team, or desktop team, or perhaps UME even, etc.
<ogra> depends
<ogra> if what they want to do is edubuntu related we need to find the right tasks for them there
<RichEd> if someone asks how they can help through our community, we should use them for education specific work
<ogra> if they are server specialists they will be better off in the server team but still with input and requirements we bring up to them
<RichEd> LaserJock: so look at something like our education mass maintenance requirement
<RichEd> that request has come in from education before any requests from ubuntu server
<LaserJock> well look, I never said we shouldn't do this
<RichEd> so ogra defines the need, and we spec it ... and the distro team needs to find a way to resolve it ...
<LaserJock> I'm just saying we really really need to figure out the community consequences
<LaserJock> and work on the communication that we'll need to make it work
<RichEd> and ogra makes sure it fits what we need, but the work is alloctated to far more people resource than we have access to
<RichEd> so we have access in effect to the entire developer community, and not just our developer community
<RichEd> we need a core Edubuntu developer community to work on the applications / features that touch our education community
<RichEd> LaserJock: expand a bit if you can ?
<LaserJock> well, there's two "issues" I see with this
<LaserJock> 1) Edubuntu is currently primarily an LTSP distro
<ogra> LaserJock, ubuntu will become that regardless of edubuntu
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> darn it, I'm not arguing against that
<ogra> the long term goal for me for hardy is to have sbalneav in core-dev
<LaserJock> I'm trying to get us to think about what we need to do to deal with that
<ogra> so you will have an upstream maintained ltsp in ubuntu ...
<LaserJock> 2) it makes contribution to Edubuntu as a whole more difficult
<ogra> edubuntu might loose some of its shinyness here, but it will gain a huge value for spare developer time
<RichEd> 1) Edubuntu is currently primarily an LTSP distro <- that's a statement ... what's the issue ?
<LaserJock> RichEd: it will no longer be so
<ogra> RichEd, it wont be anymore
<RichEd> how not ?
<ogra> it wont be the LTSP in one go distro anymore ...
<ogra> that will be ubuntu alternate
<LaserJock> which I think everybody agrees is the proper thing to do
<ogra> edubuntu will only add the edu bits t it
<LaserJock> LTSP is much more than just classrooms
<ogra> *to
<RichEd> or as you commented above ogra: ubuntuCD1 + download & install LTSP + edubuntu AddOn
<ogra> right
<ogra> RichEd, "one go"
<LaserJock> but we can't expect that to go over well with users necessarily
<ogra> put in the CD, answer 5 questions, go for a coffee, boot your clients
<LaserJock> we have to make sure users know what's going on
<LaserJock> document it very well
<ogra> right
<ogra> the different combination options will be confusing
<ogra> we need a "what for what" doc
<RichEd> ogra: could the LTSP download & install be scripted and activiated from GUI ?
<LaserJock> now, I think my second point is similar
<ogra> RichEd, yes, we have a spec for that :)
<RichEd> how big is the download in question ?
<LaserJock> if somebody running Edubuntu has a problem with LTSP what do we do?
<ogra> and actually that app sits on my disk here, pretty much done
<ogra> ~150M
<LaserJock> if somebody wants to contribute a patch for LDAP stuff, where do we send them
<ogra> LaserJock, we support him
<ogra> we send him to the server team
<ogra> (the latter one)
<LaserJock> right
<ogra> unless its any edubuntu specific issue with LDAP
<LaserJock> so my point is that we become quite a bit more spread out
<LaserJock> we're having to depend on other teams a lot more
<ogra> say we ship edsadmin which nobody else uses for maintaining LDAP
<RichEd> so if the user could go to [system] [[admin]] [[[LTSP]]] and tick an icon and the rest is GUI driven ... that's easy enough for anyone ?
<LaserJock> that can be quite daunting to users and potential contributors
<ogra> then its an edubuntu issue
<LaserJock> so we need to be prepared for that
<RichEd> ogra: could we get a "install edubuntu" menu option in anyplace after the ubuntu install ?
<ogra> RichEd, yes, i have various GUI tools for LTSP stuff that will be in hardy, dont worry all such stuff will be there
<ogra> RichEd, we could have a task on the alternate CD but indeed that requires a beefy connection
<RichEd> one that says: insert Edubuntu AddOn CD into your CD and then holds the users hand from there ?
<ogra> surely not ....
<ogra> thats something the installer team wont llow
<ogra> (thats actually the way debian does it)
<RichEd> can you explain why in simple terms ?
<ogra> no
<ogra> else i would have done it in the sentence above already
<ogra> i'll talk to them :)
<LaserJock> we can have it on the addon cd
<RichEd> okay ... I'm thinking that once Ubuntu is installed and up and running (which is an easy process) we could have some sort of easy wizard to guide what you need to do next.
<ogra> LaserJock, well, we will
<ogra> but rich wants a hook in the ubuntu installer
<LaserJock> I dont' think we need that though
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> I think we can safely leave Ubuntu alone :-)
<RichEd> doesn't even have to be a hard hook ... it could be an html page with a few smaller pages behind it ...
<ogra> RichEd, thats windows behavior ... dont forget that *every* user and *every* admin who installs that CD has to click it away
<ogra> popping wizards in teh face of new users is unpolite to the user imho
<LaserJock> and not helping people install the OS is unpolite IMHO
<ogra> and where exactly would you put it ?
<LaserJock> we just gotta figuer out how to best do it
<LaserJock> I think the addon CD is fine
<ogra> would it pop on every ubuntu install ?
<RichEd> I'm thinking that if someone can install Ubuntu, and then find an easy guide to getting it to become edubuntu ...
<LaserJock> we have to assume that people installing Edubuntu will use the addon CD right?
<ogra> right
<ogra> RichEd wants something on the ubuntu CD though
<LaserJock> sure
<RichEd> does not have to be a wizard ... just even an get edubuntu icon on the firefox home page
<ogra> thats a good one
<ogra> i like that ... :)
<RichEd> which can take you to a page on www.ubuntu.com
<RichEd> you need an Edubuntu AddOn CD ...
<RichEd> if you have one put it in
<RichEd> else download here
<RichEd> else order here -> shipit
 * ogra makes a note to put that in the spec :)
<RichEd> so every person who gets given even an Ubuntu CD at a meeting or event can get 1 simple instruction they will remember
<RichEd> install ubuntu, open firefox
<RichEd> and take it from there
<ogra> btw ... dont you all forget to thank LaserJock, its his work the new edubuntu will be built on :)
<LaserJock> pfft
 * RichEd is not worthy ...
<LaserJock> I didn't think it was gonna turn into much
<LaserJock> glad to see we'll get some use out of it
<RichEd> which is why i wanted to hear LaserJock warnings ... to to dispell them but to make sure we satisfy them
<ogra> well, it showed the power of g-a-i with an addon CD
<LaserJock> yes indeed
<ogra> and most of the futurework will surely base on it
<RichEd> LaserJock: look at it this way ... edubuntu community is now the client of the distro team
<RichEd> and ogra is edubuntu Technical Lead inside the distro team
<ogra> LaserJock, how would you get an edubuntu contributor into packaging ?
<RichEd> so he tells the distro team what needs to be done to deliver the communities neds
<RichEd> *needs
<LaserJock> ogra: well, at this point I'd point them at MOTU and get them a mentor
<ogra> LaserJock, i vet you'd point him to motu :) where he then likely does a lot non edu related stuff as well
<LaserJock> it'd be nice if we had enough people to really sit down and focus on edu apps
<ajmitch> LaserJock: you'd throw them into the shark pond?
<RichEd> if we have a community developer volunteer, the first thing we need to do is join them up into edubuntu-developers
<LaserJock> ogra: I'd love to not
<ogra> LaserJock, but the server or desktop teams are not different here
<LaserJock> ogra: as they'd be forced to deal with ajmitch
<LaserJock> ;-)
<ajmitch> :)
<ogra> you point and edu ethusiast to the server team and both teams win
<LaserJock> ogra: but it *is* adding teams
<ajmitch> the desktop team has people who are applying for MOTU who don't do all their work in #ubuntu-motu
<LaserJock> ogra: I'm not saying it won't work
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Could we maybe try to woo a kde-edu or gnome-edu devel (or ideally one of each) to throw in their low with us?
<LaserJock> I'm simply saying that *assuming* it will work and be a glorious success is a little ... optimistic
<sbalneav> s/low/lot/
<LaserJock> we need to work hard at getting good communication with these teams so we can send people to the right place
<LaserJock> and not just dump them
<LaserJock> like having a team rep or something
<RichEd> LaserJock: yes, we join them into edubuntu developers, and all the work they do is focused on that ... if they are a developer from the education world
<RichEd> if they want to work on LTSP it's because they have a classroom to run
<ogra> LaserJock, we will always have our own server stuff
<ogra> like moodle will surely not be maintained by the server team
<ogra> bit moin will ....
<RichEd> so if they join the ubuntu-LTSP ... they will work in that team on LTSP but make damn sure the work satisfies their edubuntu LTSP server needs
<ogra> and nontheless edubuntu-content-server will depend on both and pull it on the edubuntu CD
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I think we need to attrach education-focused devs
<LaserJock> upstream developers especially
<LaserJock> send people interested in LTSP/server specifics to the Server Team (with an Edubuntu rep)
<LaserJock> send people interested in desktop features to the desktop team, etc.
<RichEd> LaserJock: *as* an Edubuntu rep
<sbalneav> Should we maybe send an email to kde-edu and gnome-edu lists, asking for them to become involved in Edubuntu?
<LaserJock> but turn our development focus on education as that is really our niche
<RichEd> sbalneav:  we met a bunch of them at UDS ... 'cept they were working in the Kubuntu camp
<ogra> there is no such thing like a gnome-edu list i think
<RichEd> now we can say we are focused on education, they write education applications, and get them to chat & work with us
<sbalneav> They are obviously misplaced :)
<ogra> or even a team ... sadly
<RichEd> LaserJock: they showed us some neat KDE4 education applications
<sbalneav> Allow me to ask one more heretical question.  I know ogra's gonna give me a dirty look. :)
<RichEd> one world globe map (like a desktop google earth) you could flatten into a map at any stage or zoom level
<sbalneav> But since most of our edu apps are kde based....
<sbalneav> ...
<sbalneav> (dot dot dot)
 * sbalneav waits for ogra to hit him on the head
<RichEd> kde imitates windows ... gnome is a way of working
<ogra> they wont be for long
<RichEd> why imitate windows ?
<ogra> we have tons of non kde apps in the archive that are not on the CD yet
<RichEd> our clients like gnome and we can run KDE applications as well ...
<ogra> kdeedu is only a subset we ship as well
<sbalneav> Ok, I just like to raise it for discussion.
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> potentially it doesn't matter
<LaserJock> since we're an addon
<ogra> right
<sbalneav> Just so no-one can say we didn't do our due-dilligence
<LaserJock> we can easily be a kubuntu adon
<LaserJock> *addon
<LaserJock> if Kubuntu implemented the same Addon detection
<LaserJock> it would be fairly easy
<ogra> if someone wants to do edubuntu-kde-artwork/-settings packages i'll happily include them
<RichEd> If someone wants to install Kubuntu CD1 and get to the Edubuntu packge under KDE would that be possible ?
<ogra> but we'll likel run into a prob here
<ogra> since we cant make sure all deps are fulfilled by a kubuntu CD
<LaserJock> right
<ogra> we only can build against one main CD
<ogra> which will be ubuntu
<LaserJock> but we can work with that
<RichEd> ogra: that may be a good target for hardy+1
<ogra> right
<Riddell> RichEd: I'd disagree with your generalisation
<RichEd> Riddell: how so ...
<ogra> RichEd, that will make colins head explode
<RichEd> :) lol
<ogra> ther is a lot math involved in even getting the first edubuntu-addon right
<LaserJock> ogra: well, it's not too hard
<RichEd> so at the moment, ogra & Riddel, can someone with Kubuntu installed add all of the edubuntu education packages
<LaserJock> ogra: we already have KDE Edu
<ogra> making it depend on kubuntu as well now will be nearly unsolvable ... like 100 comuters will have to compute for 15 years on it :)
<LaserJock> that's something
<ogra> RichEd, they can use the CD, but we cant guarantee all dependencies are there
<ogra> so pieces might need to get downloaded
<ogra> we can only guarantee that for one CD we base on
<RichEd> no i mean right now ... if Riddell has Kubuntu on his machine, can he downloard and install edubuntu-packages ?
<LaserJock> we can manually add some deps to the seeds if we need to
<ogra> RichEd, indeed he can
<LaserJock> RichEd: if he puts in the addon CD and adds it to his repos he can install anything off of there
<ogra> he can install edubuntu-desktop or any of the packages from the edubuntu addon CD
<LaserJock> the deps many not be all there depending on the package
<ogra> and as LaserJock says he can use the addon CD, but pieces might need to come from the net
<ogra> kubuntu doesnt include any gnome libs ... so if there is a program using gnome libs they will have to come from anywhere
<LaserJock> in any case
<RichEd> In effect Edubuntu becomes the "education layer" the "education package bundke" ... and the user can chose their base distribution ... KDE or Gnome
<RichEd> *bundle
<LaserJock> our move to being and Addon makes us much more DE-neutral
<RichEd> LaserJock: and isn't that the point of this community ?
<LaserJock> RichEd: I would think so
<RichEd> we are saying to the user, chose your preference from any base ... get education value from Edubuntu
<RichEd> so anyone punting Kubuntu at schools can say, and if you get this really neat Edubuntu Addon CD ... you can install all these great education packages
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> okay ... let's move on to tech from ogra ... and then revisit this after that ?
<ogra> well, i cant say much yet
<ogra> my main work is currently sorting out ltsp upstream to get my hands off it ... and then waiting what tasks colin will share out in the distro team
<RichEd> re ^ we all need to think of benifits and drawbacks, and make sure we promote the benefits (to clients and the community(s)), and make sure we plan ahead to cope with the drawbacks ^
<RichEd> ogra: when will you get the basic task split from them ? at the next distro meeting or will you & colin sit down first
<RichEd> for a more detailed look ?
<ogra> no idea i guess i'll get info during this week and surely colin wont do it over my head
<ogra> he got my list today (you were CCed)
<ogra> * Gui frontends for LTSP scripts
<ogra> * LTSP local apps (sbalneav implementing)
<ogra> * LTSP virtual hal devices (my spec, very low prio)
<ogra> * Ongoing: LTSP repackaging and package split
<ogra> * edubuntu-content-server (moodle/wiki/DB metapackage)
<ogra> * edubuntu-menu-completion if LaserJock has time ... else i'll look into it
<ogra> * edubuntu-mass-maintenance (90% server team work)
<ogra> * edubuntu-and-italc
 * ogra waves to stgraber 
<ogra> stgraber, did excellent work on that last one :)
<stgraber> well, we have working iTalc, now it's mainly about integrating it
<ogra> * edubuntu-profile-and-session-management (sabayon and pessulus fixes)
<RichEd> will we be able to do a sort of visual diagram to conceptually show the "education layer" / "ubuntu layer" ... so if a contributor / volunteer wanted to get involved, they could see what lay where ?
<ogra> * edubuntu-user-management (making gnome-users-admin LDAP aware, likely a taks for the desktop team)
<ogra> RichEd, well, actually only parts of edubuntu-content-server and the edubuntu-menu-completion and edubuntu-and-italc specs are really edu relevant
<ogra> all the reast is distro/server or desktop team related
<RichEd> but those are the specs ... we do a lot more ... like getting new applications into main etc.
<ogra> i have no list for that yet
<RichEd> so it would be good if we could have some sort of a list of the different areas that education contributors could get involved ...
<ogra> docs ... artwork ... and fixing bugs on the edu packages
<ogra> and provding new ideas :)
<RichEd> proposing new applications and assisting with the main inclusion process
<ogra> right
<RichEd> sharing of overall education solutions ... like how they chose to configure the 2,000 PC school deployment, and what other applications they use in the total management and maintenance stack
<RichEd> that is the sort of stuff that people need when they are taking a decision to "go large'
<RichEd> and we are seeing more and more people coming to Ubuntu with those sorts of requirements
<ogra> right and we'll adress it ...
<ogra> but it will take its time ... even including something like puppet isnt the 100% solution, its only a start
<RichEd> :) yep ... I was just trying to unearth some categories so we can get to that "so you want to help" guide we were talking about a way back
<ogra> there is a lot more around it
<ogra> and a lot nonexisting software yet
<RichEd> ogra: so noted, but if we can find people who work for the large schools deployments in spain or macedonia to share their solution documentation ... that is a start
<ogra> well, the thing is that there is not a universal solution yet
<ogra> it might be strange and weird hacks as well as ingenious solutions
<RichEd> but there are *working* ones
<ogra> working doesnt mean upgradeable ...
<ogra> or easily maintainable in the future etc
<ogra> i can get up a 5000 seat install in one or two days, even remotely maintainabe wit hardcoded scripts and configs
<ogra> but i couldnt guarantee you it survives the next upgarde
<ogra> the solution we will finally provide must be the 100% universal solution
<RichEd> well stgraber is now panelbeating italc into a lot better shape than it was ... so if somone shares their possibly ugly solution, it's a starting point we can refine before we bundle
<ogra> teat and guaranteed to work
 * RichEd milks the teat
<ogra> heh
<ogra> LTSP nowadays boots every thin client you can find ...
<RichEd> so italc is a useful tool for teaching ...
<ogra> that doesnt mean this thin client uses its full capabilities ...
<RichEd> we will not bundle it until it meets the main approval criteria ...
<ogra> you might want to tailor it a bit to get the last out of it
<RichEd> but hearing what teachers and schools are currently using is good for us
<ogra> if we provide a mass maintenance setup it should be like that
<ogra> very generic, fitting every purpose
<ogra> but easily tailoryble for your specific needs
<RichEd> okay ... I'll play with some sections on how to get involved / education areas / desktop / server ... and we can revise it wiith comments
<ogra> i'm donre then
<ogra> *done as well
<RichEd> --- any other issues for tonight ?
<RichEd> --- any other questions for tonight ?
<RichEd> going once ?
<ogra> twice ?
<RichEd> going 3 times ?
<RichEd> gong g g
<ogra> yay
<sbalneav> \o/
<RichEd> thanks all ...
 * ogra now has two important meetings on wed.
<RichEd> sbalneav: think from your point of view the benefits of the new structure ...
<RichEd> push LTSP into icafes on ubuntu, and suddenly you have a much broader tech community to draw on
<nixternal> holy smokes, a meeting!!!
<nixternal> howdy ogra, sbalneav, RichEd, and others who aren't talking :)
<RichEd> nixternal: just the vapour trails left
<nixternal> ahh, explains the smell :)
<ogra> heh
<sbalneav> Yep, it benefits LTSP for sure.  But wearing my Edubuntu hat, I'd also like to see more edu devel involvement.
<RichEd> so we need to hook the younger people with easier simpler ways to start helping out ... and breeds them into developers
 * RichEd needs to get to bed
<sbalneav> Night!
<RichEd> bye all
<ogra> when does your flight go ?
<ogra> tomorrow or fri ?
<RichEd> ogra: i've decided to do a web cam link up ... busy discussing with Anestis
<ogra> ah, cool
<RichEd> i would need to travel for 3 days just to be there for 1.5 dats
<RichEd> *days
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> thats what i thought
<ogra> would have been crazy to overcome your jetlag while flying
<RichEd> it's generic moodle training, and I have found him 2 local certified moodle trainers based in Greece
<ogra> :)
<RichEd> one a librarian who has worked on founding leaning and moodle project
<RichEd> *learning
<RichEd> she wants to collaborate with moodle users and schools in greece
<ogra> perfect
<RichEd> and the other is a guy who has started his own business providing commercial moodle training &* certification, while he finishes his doctorate dissertation on elearning
<RichEd> both will present and collaborate for travel & accommodation
<ogra> great !
<RichEd> :) i thought so ... they can talk learning & moodle ... and I can listen in
<ogra> yeah
<RichEd> while I work on specs and real stuff ;)
<ogra> hehe
<RichEd> g'night
<ogra> night
<Goosemoose> RichEd, ive been using moodle for a few years, not sure how much you guys have been using it but i have a 1200 student school setup with it
<RichEd> Goosemoose: excellent ... won't you pop me an email with a short paragraph saying what you do with it ?
<Goosemoose> sure, most of our teachers use it for online homework, quizzes , resources, etc
<Goosemoose> Are you planning on bundling it with edubuntu server?
<RichEd> Goosemoose: it's in main and on the Edubuntu Server CD2 for 7.10 already
<RichEd> (with postgress)
<RichEd> and specced for integration & easy one time install for 8.04
<Goosemoose> ahh i didnt see it
<Goosemoose> cool
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-15
<|Giskard|> hi :)
<|Giskard|> somebody here?
<|Giskard|> hallo?
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 22 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<kwwii> hi all
<pitti> hi
<seb128> hey pitti
<Hobbsee> argh, it's a scary people meeting!
<Keybuk> scary people?
 * Hobbsee points at Keybuk. yes.
<Hobbsee> don't you count as scary?
<kwwii> Hobbsee: stop being sKary
 * mvo waves
 * Hobbsee trouts kwwii
<kwwii> *ouch*
 * Mithrandir gives Hobbsee some fresh salmon
<Hobbsee> kwwii: would now be an appropriate tiem to mention that i'm not running kubuntu?
 * Hobbsee smacks Keybuk with the salmon, then
<kwwii> Hobbsee: don't tell me, tell Riddell
 * seb128 hugs Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> (thanks. that's useful)
 * Hobbsee hugs seb128
<seb128> ;-)
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: welcome to the dark^Wbrown side.
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: it's not brown anymore :)
<kwwii> lol, black and orange!
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: bar the panels, looks remarkably like kubuntu.
<Hobbsee> nah.  bluey-purple.  :)
<Mithrandir> orangish, then
<Keybuk> Riddell: ping
<Mithrandir> kwwii: incidentially, the default openbox theme is quite a good match for our default look.
<kwwii> Mithrandir: cool, i will check it out
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody
<Keybuk> Welcome back everybody
<Keybuk> How's everyone settling back into their own timezones?
<pitti> ~ sweet ~
 * kwwii actually slept through the whole night
<{ted}> Pretty good.
<pitti> surprisingly easy, due to not being able to sleep on planes I could actually sleep Sunda ynight
<{ted}> I had the easy one though.
<MacSlow> Keybuk, sunday and monday felt a bit odd
 * mvo is mostly good as well
<Keybuk> Better than me then!  I slept most of Sunday daytime and thus am still vaguely unsure what day it is
<MacSlow> but since tuesday everything feels solid again
<pitti> {ted}: how have your first 'remote' days been? grinded through all the NewStaffTasks?
<seb128> I was sleepy on sunday afternoon and I'm back on local time since monday ;-)
<Keybuk> First thing on the agenda, Welcome Aboard to {ted}!
<MacSlow> {ted}, official greetings!
<{ted}> pitti: I've done a bunch of them, I need to ensure that I've done them all.
<pitti> {ted}: can you consider using [ted] instead, for no-shift-love? :)
<{ted}> I'm pretty thrilled that my simple package finally built.
<mvo> {ted}: welcome!
<{ted}> Hmm, yeah, I thought for some reason the nickserv wouldnt' let me have that one.
<MacSlow> {ted}, took me a few days to make sure I did all needed pieces
<seb128> {ted}: could you use a nickname without special chat at the start? it hurts my hand to use the modifier
 * ogra would guess "ted" is taken
<seb128> [ also needs a modifier on french layout :(
<MacSlow> indeed... AltGr-7 is ugly
<{ted}> Hmm, I might have to come up with something clever ;)
<MacSlow> seb128, we should switch to US-layout
<kwwii> he is just making sure you really want to chat with him ;-)
<seb128> MacSlow: I like to give non-english testing to Ubuntu because we have non-english users apparently
<MacSlow> {ted}, what about TheTed?
<pitti> MacSlow: US layout is *so* much better for programming, vim, etc.
<pitti> tgould?
<MacSlow> pitti, hell yeah
<pitti> anyway, OT for meeting
<Keybuk> And since {ted} has joined, and is in the balmy US/Pacific timezone, this brings us onto the second agenda item ... the meeting time
<Keybuk> thanks for all not shouting at the sudden move of an hour
<MacSlow> Keybuk, afternoon for me so... no issues there
<Keybuk> {ted}: are you happy with this time?  or would you prefer a little later in the day?
<Keybuk> (obviously we now have to balance the fact the team spans nine timezones)
<MacSlow> {ted}, must be just after getting up for you over there, right?
<{ted}> This is good for me, it's when I normally wake up.
<MacSlow> oh... I though all except for Ted are located in Europe
<{ted}> It just means that i don't get to shower first.
<{ted}> But, you guys can't smell me through IRC.
<pitti> MacSlow: right, nothing in between the TZ span edges :)
<pitti> {ted}: apt-get install irc-smell-plugin is not until 8.10
<{ted}> pitti: Heh, the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised.
<MacSlow> pitti, some specs just should not be considered at all
<{ted}> But, in IRC, it'll all be encoded into your nick...  just like state.
<pitti> so, 1400 UTC then?
<Keybuk> any objections to 1400 UTC? :p
<MacSlow> nope
<Hobbsee> i object!  :P
 * Hobbsee shuts up again
<pitti> Hobbsee: you are awake 24 hours a day, what do you care? :)
<MacSlow> Hobbsee, can you be bribed with a cookie?
<{ted}> nope
<Hobbsee> pitti: not quite :)
<Hobbsee> MacSlow: depends how much chocolate it contains.
<Keybuk> mvo, kwwii, Riddell?
<MacSlow> hm... 34%
<pitti> (OT: these American cookies were sooooo yummy)
<mvo> that is fine with me
 * MacSlow misses the muffins
<ogra> s/yummy/heavy/
<Keybuk> ok, next agenda item
<Keybuk> Spec Approval
 * MacSlow is still working on them
<pitti> when can a spec go from review to pendingreview?
<pitti> erm, pendingapproval?
<pitti> when we got one or two positive feedbacks from our fellows?
<Keybuk> pitti: in theory, when a "reviewer" reads it
<Keybuk> in practice, I'll read anything >= review
<Keybuk> spec approval basically involves nagging me all of next week to read your specs
<pitti> after Sevilla we used peer review for that
<Keybuk> please feel free to message me on IRC with a list of those you want me to read
<Keybuk> and keep on doing it until I do it :)
<pitti> which worked very well IME
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I thought we still have time  until 22nd to bring them into shape before review/approval
<Keybuk> that's another good option
<Keybuk> MacSlow: indeed, which is Thursday next week
<pitti> especially feedback from upstream is helpful
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I should have done them before the weekend
<Keybuk> in practice, if you're mostly at review by Thursday, I'll be more than happy
<pitti> MacSlow: NB, bring to state review != get them approved
<MacSlow> Keybuk, the gdm dude, Jon, is pretty fast with replies... David Reveman is certainly slower with replies
<MacSlow> pitti, indeed... I was oversimplifiying
<MacSlow> the process
<Keybuk> please don't let me block you - nag and shout at me if you need me to review something
<{ted}> MacSlow: Did you ask the GDM guy about some of the power management stuff we were talking about with the logout?  Not sure that it's going to be Hardy, but I was curious what he's thinking there.
<MacSlow> {ted}, not yet
<MacSlow> but on my list
<Keybuk> does anyone have any questions about the spec process?
<pitti> I would like to defer filling out the release notes part until a beta is available
<MacSlow> I am a bit unsure about the difference between "Design" and "Implementation"
<Keybuk> MacSlow: sometimes it's often the same bit
<MacSlow> ok
<pitti> ^ I usually describe the high-level "what?" bits in design, and the actual implementation details ("how?") in implementation
<pitti> but often, the implementation is clear from reading the design, so I think it can sometimes be skipped
<MacSlow> pitti, changing that a bit as things go on is possible I would guess... as long as only one part "Release Notes" changes, or?
<Keybuk> specs can change as much as you like ;)
<Keybuk> cjwatson is a great fan of rewriting a spec after implementation so that it actually matches
<MacSlow> well :)
<Keybuk> since it can then serve as documentation
<MacSlow> ah... ok... I'll remember that one
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> pitti: PolicyKit adoption strategy?
<pitti> right; I'm a bit nervous about this
<Riddell> MacSlow: often my specs don't have a design at all (since if it's a port from ubuntu it has already been designed)
<pitti> since it's basically an on/off thing (main or not at all)
<pitti> so my current gut feeling is to do enable it in hal and put it into main, but not necessarily use it for all the things in the admin menu
<MacSlow> Riddell, you're lucky then
<pitti> but only for some small applications and new usage cases like g-p-m and network-manager access control for the current console, etc.
<pitti> for hardy I'd like to keep using gksu for gnome-system-tools, for example
<Keybuk> that sounds very reasonable
<pitti> at least until we disable ptrace() by default in the kernel
<seb128> I discussed that with pitti during allhand and I'm happy with doing it this way
<pitti> it's not so much my inconfidence in the PK implementation itself
<pitti> but more the fact that then all the admin UI will run with just user privileges
<mvo> what about the package tools (synaptic and friends)?
<pitti> and thus there is no security boundary any more to other user processes
<pitti> mvo: same argument
<mvo> gksu then
<Keybuk> what's the ptrace issue?
<pitti> I wouldn't like firefox plugins to install packages without notice
<mvo> we have no tools that install without a question
<pitti> Keybuk: e. g. if a firefox plugin ptraces users-admin or the synaptic frontend, it can use the PK privileges granted to users-admin
<pitti> if those programs run as root, user processes can't ptrace them
<pitti> I'm aware that you can still use Xevent injection, etc., but it's much harder
<Keybuk> because it can steal the PK auth token?
<pitti> whereas attaching gdb and calling system() is a trivial exploit
<pitti> Keybuk: no, not steal
<pitti> Keybuk: just execute arbitrary code in the process context of the target app
<Keybuk> ahh
<Keybuk> what did davidz have to say about that?
<pitti> that's why I prefer having admin GUIs run as root
<pitti> (a common misconception is that this is a bad thing per se)
<pitti> Keybuk: it just came to my mind after we met, unfortunately
<pitti> I'll ask him via email, but I had to catch up with too much so far
<Keybuk> it'd be worth getting some thoughts on that
<Riddell> pitti: doesn't policykit have a way to restrict which apps can run something?
<pitti> so I think that using PK for things that already run as user, like g-p-m or the netapplet tool, PK is great
<pitti> Riddell: sure it has, it assigns privileges based on process ID and executable path
<pitti> Riddell: the point is, with ptrace() that does not help you *at all*
<pitti> Kees and I talked about this, and he also would like to disable ptrace() by default
<pitti> that's a slight inconvenience for developers, since they have to enable it to use gdb, strace, etc.
<Keybuk> sadly I'm not helping that battle
<pitti> but it's well worth it, IMHO
<Keybuk> since Upstart *uses* ptrace
<pitti> Keybuk: upstart == root, isn't it?
<Keybuk> right
<pitti> (it should only be disabled for normal users)
<Keybuk> certainly user ptrace should be off by default
<pitti> no reason to disable it for root
<Keybuk> there should be a "I'm a developer" switch that enables ptrace and disables apport :)
<pitti> something like that, yeah
<seb128> and change the yelp icon to a gnome-terminal one
<Keybuk> seb128: ?
<mvo> devel mode
<seb128> Keybuk: the icons you have on the default panel, I expect developer to want a command line rather than yelp there
<pitti> once we have that, I'm fine with using PK for everything, since then it is equivalent protection like our current gksu (which is also susceptible to X event injection)
<pitti> seb128: heh :)
<pitti> so, any objection to this approach? we'll get PK for things that make good use of it, but continue to use gksudo for the main set of admin GUIs
<Keybuk> seb128: if only yelp did devhelp stuff ;)
<Keybuk> (one of my private annoyances)
 * seb128 hugs pitti, looks a good approc
<Keybuk> pitti: what kind of timeline can we disable ptrace for users?
<pitti> then we can at least drop libpam-foreground and the nasty hacks in g-v-m, g-p-m, nm-applet, etc. to only work on the currently active session
<Keybuk> pitti: absolutely no objection; it's better than pam-foreground so should immediately replace that
<pitti> Keybuk: I don't know
 * pitti makes a note to mail kernel team and Kees
<pitti> the more interesting question is probably how to enable it again
<pitti> disabling it is probably trivial
<pitti> it would become a sysctl, but that might not be the most obvious interface
<pitti> so we need to build something on top of it
<pitti> (maybe patch strace and gdb to give an explanation?)
<Keybuk> echo 1 > /proc/sys/kernel/root-me-root-me-root-me
<Keybuk> ptrace has a CAP now, doesn't it?
<pitti> "please uncomment kernel.user_ptrace in /etc/sysctl.conf" or so
<pitti> Keybuk: I think it always had it
<pitti> CAP_SYS_PTRACE
<pitti> oh, sorry
<pitti> that's only to trace processes which do not belong to you
<pitti> a sysctl and useful explanation errors in strace and gdb seems like a reasonable start?
<Keybuk> yup, very
<Keybuk>         if (((current->uid != task->euid) ||
<Keybuk>              (current->uid != task->suid) ||
<Keybuk>              (current->uid != task->uid) ||
<Keybuk>              (current->gid != task->egid) ||
<Keybuk>              (current->gid != task->sgid) ||
<Keybuk>              (current->gid != task->gid)) && !capable(CAP_SYS_PTRACE))
<Keybuk>                 return -EPERM;
<pitti> ACTION: pitti to mail kees and kernel team about disabling ptrace and re-enabling interface
<pitti> (argh, I can't do that, can I)
<Keybuk> can't do which?
<Keybuk> oh, I gave up with mootbot after about the second meeting
 * pitti adds it to his personal TODO list
<seb128> pitti: is there any bot set for the meeting?
<pitti> Keybuk: ACTION:
<pitti> nevermind
<Keybuk> the fact only the chair can do actions means I have to see, copy and paste them anyway
<Keybuk> so s/mootbot/tomboy/ :)
<siretart> sounds easy to fix, though
<pitti> so, I'm done with the topic, unless someone else has questions?
<Keybuk> ok, next topic then
<Keybuk> Patches
<Keybuk> send your patches upstream and to Debian whenever you can
<Keybuk> :-)
<pitti> ++
<Keybuk> jcastro can help you find your upstream, and find out from them how they want patches delivered and at what threshold
<Keybuk> (this is going to be the topic of the next six months)
<Keybuk> {ted}: well done for stepping up to deal with g-p-m so quickly!
<pitti> now, at merge time, this is an excellent time to do so, when we clean up our patches and adopt them to the current version
<Keybuk> exactly
<seb128> we will start using tags for desktop packages soon, I just need to mail the list to settle the tags list etc
<Keybuk> this is something we're not terrible at anyway; but we can always be brilliant
<seb128> like adding bugzilla and launchpad bug numbers and a description in the patches
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I will see to get as much as possible from my gutsy-work to Vincent
<{ted}> tags?
<seb128> and we will not accepted easily patches which are not sent upstream first
<pitti> seb128: ah, I thought you meant https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Debian/Usertagging
<seb128> {ted}: comments on the top of the patch
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I talked with Vincent already at UDS and know how he expects the stuff
<seb128> pitti: what we discussed in Sevilla
<pitti> Fedora's policy is that they do not apply and upload a patch before it is reported upstream
<pitti> quite rigid, but effective apparently
<seb128> they don't respect it apparently
<Keybuk> pitti: Fedora are upstream for almost everything in their distirbution
<Keybuk> and the things that they aren't, they certainly bloody well don't do that
<seb128> because I browse their viewcvs quite often and they do have some patches which are not upstream there
<Keybuk> look at the number of patches to things like sysvinit which they have
<Keybuk> (Debian is upstream for sysvinit)
<pitti> well, that's what Lennart told me anyway
<pitti> (and he does)
<seb128> we will try to do the same for desktop packages
<pitti> anyway, I just think it's an idea to be considered
<seb128> would probably be nice to not limit to desktop but I can't speak for other teams ;-)
<Keybuk> amusingly
<Keybuk> Fedora has patches in their RPMs for packages that they are upstream for
<jcastro> seb128: do you have it written down someplace what the desktop patch policy for gnome will be?
<pitti> heh
<pitti> "Bow to seb128, buy him a beer, give him a hug"
<seb128> jcastro: no, as said I need to mail the list, it's on my TODO for this week to discuss it, then I'll write it on the wiki and let you know
<Keybuk> but our goal here isn't to pick fault in other distributions ability to send patches back
<Keybuk> but to make sure nobody can pick fault with us :)
<Keybuk> I already think we do a better job than anybody else
 * mvo is very happy about this policy!
<Keybuk> but we can always do better
<seb128> Keybuk: depending of the "we"
<seb128> I think it's less than optimal in MOTU land
<pitti> *nod*
<Keybuk> that's possibly true
<pitti> this should probably be incorporated into the MOTU training process
<seb128> anyway that's OT for this meeting probably
<Keybuk> that's the end of my list of topics
<Keybuk> any other business?
<Hobbsee> pitti: it already is, community side.
<pitti> Hobbsee: it hasn't always been that way, though
<pitti> but good to know that it is like that now
<Hobbsee> pitti: has been emphasised in the las tcouple of releases, but perhaps not enough, making it mandatory, etc.
<Riddell> have we considered asking QA for help with New queue and archive admin?
 * MacSlow forgot lunch today
<Riddell> since New queue is essentially QA
<seb128> it should not be
<seb128> what is uploaded should have been QA reviewed first
<dholbach> we have a lot of MOTUs feeding back patches and in sponsoring bugs it is requested a lot, though the degree of feeding of course back varies
<Riddell> seb128: what should it be then?
<pitti> isn't that a classic archive-admin task?
<Hobbsee>  Riddell motu's, etc, should be doing the job of qa
<Hobbsee> as in, checking it.
<Riddell> the emphasis is different from revu et al, but it's essentially just another check
<Hobbsee> there shouldnt *be* anything in that queue that isnt fine to upload.  although i'm aware that it's not the case.
<pitti> Hobbsee: it's not that bad, though
<seb128> well, I would not trust all the QA people to accept packages in the archive
<pitti> most rejections are due to licensing issues, not due to bad packaging
<pitti> (IME anyway)
<Keybuk> (no other business? => end of meeting, to let you continue the discussion)
<seb128> Keybuk: thanks
<pitti> thanks everyone
<Keybuk> if you haven't already done so, make sure you get your performance review feedback in by tomorrow (for canonical staff except MacSlow and {ted})
<mvo> thanks
<Hobbsee> pitti: true, but motu's should be doing licencing too, no?
<Riddell> seb128: indeed, I'd be unsure if there's enough packaging experience
<pitti> Hobbsee: they should, yes
 * Hobbsee should be in bed.  night all.
<seb128> Riddell: not only packaging, I'm not sure QA people know or care about licenses
<seb128> Hobbsee: 'night
<Riddell> I include caring about licence in packaging expertese :)
<pitti> Riddell: btw, seb128 and I thought a "do three source NEWs a day" approach for the three of us would work; WDYT?
<seb128> pitti: works for me
<pitti> (until the current backlog is finished)
<seb128> should we claim the packages we review somewhere?
<pitti> then, with so many archive days we shouldn't get a big backlog anytime soon
<Riddell> that would take about 6 weeks to clear the backlog
<pitti> Riddell: no, it's only 30ish Ubuntu source NEWs
<seb128> Riddell: there is not so many source NEW, that should rather be a week
<Riddell> right, does seem like a good idea
<MacSlow> he's taking the shower now I bet
<pitti> ok, seems we are done; thanks again everyone
<seb128> thanks pitti
 * MacSlow goes for late lunch now
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-16
<kraut> moin
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-17
<Ziroda1> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 22 Nov 22:00: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 20:00: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 22:00: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-18
<kraut> moin
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-10
<ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubottu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 11 Nov 02:00: LoCo Council | 12 Nov 00:00: Server Team | 12 Nov 01:00: Kernel Team | 13 Nov 01:00: QA Team | 13 Nov 06:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 20:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 10 Nov 19:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 17:00: Server Team | 11 Nov 18:00: Kernel Team | 12 Nov 18:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 23:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<highvoltage> 09
<ogra> 10
<nuvolari> lo morgs, superfly, yusuf_
<morgs> hi nuvolari!
<superfly> hey nuvolari
<yusuf_> nuvolari: hi nuvolari
<nuvolari> will this meeting need participation from me?
<Reenen> does ubuntu need participation from you?  No, but it may be a better OS with you, than it is without you... I guess it's the same for the meeting
<morgs> I haven't been to a LoCoCouncil meeting before, but there's an agenda, and I will present our application. Not sure if there will be call for comments from the audience, but you're welcome to show your support... :)
 * Reenen is also a total n00b when it comes to LoCoCouncil meetings
<janc_EEE_900> of course, if the audience wants to help you they should have a look at your application first  ;-)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: LoCo Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 11 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<juliux> @scheudle berlin
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: Current meeting: LoCo Council 11 Nov 17:00: Server Team | 11 Nov 18:00: Kernel Team | 12 Nov 18:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 23:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<juliux> popey: boredandblogging janc_EEE_900 ping
<juliux> Rafik: ping
<juliux> highvoltage: ping
<highvoltage> juliux: pong
<juliux> morgs: ping
 * morgs pongs
<juliux> hey highvoltage just checking who is alive for loco council meeting;)
<nuvolari> lol
<juliux> so i pinged everybody from the agenda;9
<nuvolari> ooh sorry, the other pong :P
<highvoltage> juliux: heh
<morgs> nuvolari: hehe
<janc_EEE_900> I'm alive  :)
<juliux> highvoltage: who is your working?
<Rafik> juliux: pong
<Rafik> hello all
<juliux> hi Rafik
<boredandblogging> hello
<boredandblogging> i need a few minutes
<nuvolari> hey Rafik
<boredandblogging> finishing up a real life meeting
<juliux> boredandblogging: ok
<highvoltage> hey boredwithaverylongnickandblogging
<yusuf_> hehe
<juliux> popey: ? janc_EEE_900 ?
<janc_EEE_900> juliux: yep
<juliux> good
<juliux> janc_EEE_900: we are waiting for boredandblogging then we can start
<juliux> boredandblogging: ready?
<highvoltage> luisbg: heh, I thought that you already were the leader of us :)
<juliux> btw who allready has intrepid cds?
<highvoltage> I think morgs got ours
<morgs> I would have them, but I have to register with the revenue service as an importer first :(
<juliux> i am still waiting because i requested the cds but i am not the "official" team contact
<morgs> That takes forms which I have to take to the Customs department, and possibly pay 10% of the shipment value as a deposit
<morgs> The CDs are in the country though, it's just a matter of paperwork and time
<janc_EEE_900> I got my entrepid CDs today
<highvoltage> morgs: *sigh*
<janc_EEE_900> my = of the ubuntu-be team
 * superfly just downloads them from the local mirror when he's at work and  then distributes them... faster than waiting for them to be shipped
<nuvolari> brb
<yusuf_> that what I call supershipit
<highvoltage> superfly: I think that's why it's so important that we take distribution as a priority in our loco
<highvoltage> yusuf_: just don't say it too fast, it has the potential to get... ugly
<superfly> highvoltage: indeed, hence me sometimes feeling like an Ubuntu factory ;-)
<highvoltage> superfly: heh
<morgs> Maybe we should add a column to our CD distribution page for people to log how many CDs they have toasted/distributed... might be a nice way to show activity in the locoteam
<janc_EEE_900> we burned & gave away 60 or 70 CD-Rs at the computer sales fair a week ago  :)
<highvoltage> I wondered whether we were going to have any freaks from our loco joining tonight :)
<highvoltage> hey D-Arb
<janc_EEE_900> (and got > 80 euro in gifts)
<nuvolari> lo D-Arb
<D-Arb> hi
<D-Arb> loco freak reporting for duty
<nuvolari> lol
<boredandblogging> sorry, I'm back
 * nelydajo is also reporting for loco duty
 * cocooncrash too
 * yusuf_ too
 * superfly raises his hand
 * nuvolari o/
<boredandblogging> we are having CD issues?
<highvoltage> someone please hit the opening gong?
<boredandblogging> janc_EEE_900: ping
<boredandblogging> juliux: ping
 * nuvolari hits the gong *GONG*
<juliux> boredandblogging: i am not getting cds because i am not the team contact;)
<boredandblogging> lol
<juliux> boredandblogging: no joke
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: ubuntu-za is having import-issues, morgs could elaborate on that
<janc_EEE_900> boredandblogging: pong
<morgs> boredandblogging: I've received one package too many, now I have to register as an importer with a customs code...
<boredandblogging> so we have enough people for the council today?
<juliux> boredandblogging: can you run the meeting?
<boredandblogging> sure
<boredandblogging> let me pull up the agenda
 * juliux is watching some pg_recovery jobs on his other screen
<boredandblogging> apologize for being late, hate when real life gets in the way of Ubuntu!
<juliux> boredandblogging: +1
<nuvolari> yar. and noobs that do not want to try ubuntu :/
<boredandblogging> lets do ubuntu-za and then team reports
 * nuvolari was one too :P
<janc_EEE_900> and ubuntu-ro ?
<juliux> boredandblogging: i will ubntu-ro remove from the agenda tehy are allready approved at the last meeting see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda/20081007
<boredandblogging> right, romania was last meeting
<morgs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SouthAfricanTeam/ApprovalApplication
<boredandblogging> morgs: have you held the release parties for Intrepid already?
<morgs> boredandblogging: yeah, on November 1
<boredandblogging> bah, yes
<morgs> :)
<boredandblogging> I should click on the links to see myself
<morgs> We had two events, both held at school labs that run Ubuntu/Edubuntu - "tuxLabs"
<boredandblogging> cool
<highvoltage> we pushed for 4, but I think we'll get there next time
<boredandblogging> how did the leadership change go? what was the process?
<morgs> craigaa was one of the co-founders, but hardly did anything the past couple of years
<juliux> what are your plans for the future?
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: it was a smooth and simple process. craigaa willingly gave up his leadership position
<morgs> I hinted several times, and eventually called him outright about his involvement and he agreed to step down
<morgs> highvoltage was a natural candidate to step in
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: our loco team was originally registered by people who didn't even run ubuntu, that didn't do much to grow the team initially
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: as a result, or loco team was basically dead for the 1st year.
<morgs> yeah, ChanServ was the most faithful member of #ubuntu-za
<juliux> hehe
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: since morgs joined he injected a lot of enthusiasm, and then I got interested in it again. since about a year ago interest in our loco team has improved greatly
<morgs> juliux: We have some people working towards MOTU, and plan to run a packaging jam or two to get more people involved in packaging. Through this, and other means, we want to encourage more people to work towards Ubuntu membership as well.
<highvoltage> stefanlsd applied for UUC about 2 weeks ago
<morgs> We have a community project called Zabuntu, that initially seemed to be a derivative "local" distro, but we decided to make it about packaging and distributing local content
<boredandblogging> was the LoCo approval a reason to push for the leadership change?
<janc_EEE_900> to me it looks all god, including their intention to try to get their local packages "upstream"
<janc_EEE_900> s/god/good/
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: the leadership change happned before we (or at least I) knew about the loco approval
<morgs> boredandblogging: yes, it was
<highvoltage> morgs: ah, I honestly didn't know that
<morgs> highvoltage: It did prompt me to push craigaa, and it prompted him to step down because he didn't want to take on making it happen.
<boredandblogging> morgs: thats good, part of the reason we do these is to make sure LoCo get help
<highvoltage> morgs: in that case, I've very glad that our team review came up
<highvoltage> *I'm
<morgs> highvoltage: :)
<juliux> i have everything i need for vote;)
<boredandblogging> it looks like ubuntu-za is getting motivated and headed for good things
<boredandblogging> +1 from me
<janc_EEE_900> +1 from me too
<juliux> +1
<juliux> especialy because highvoltage is now in charge;)
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: our current status might seem very modest, but considering where we were roughly 18 months ago, we've made a complete turnaround and we went from a dysfunctional loco to one with lots of enthusiastic members and lots of hope
<morgs> highvoltage++
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: and thanks for your support, too
<boredandblogging> excellent, good luck with your future projects
<highvoltage> thank you, we'll keep you up to date with our progress
<morgs> Thanks!
<boredandblogging> there should be some other teams up for review
<boredandblogging> looks like they are being lazy
<boredandblogging> and not submitting applications
<boredandblogging> we will have to remedy that
<juliux> boredandblogging: i think you have to send out some mails again;)
<boredandblogging> I'll try to contact some of them this week
<boredandblogging> juliux: yeah
<boredandblogging> Rafik: are you here?
 * juliux knows one team that is missing today
<Rafik> boredandblogging: hello
<boredandblogging> Rafik: you had some things you wanted to discuss?
<Rafik> boredandblogging: yes. It's all about the ubuntu community. We want it to be a big, worldwide and unified community.
<boredandblogging> of course :-)
<Rafik> So, I've two little ideas to contribute on maintaining the community through the loco project
<Rafik> the first is about Team Reports
<Rafik> we would love to see more of them
<Rafik> I prepared some details on : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda/talk
<Rafik> any questions ? :-)
<boredandblogging> dholbach sends out reminders about Team Reports
<boredandblogging> and
<boredandblogging> I've talked to him about it
<boredandblogging> Team Reports get published in the UWN
<boredandblogging> and I'd like to publish them on Fridge and Planet
<boredandblogging> that could push more LoCos to publicize their activities to the wider community
<janc_EEE_900> Rafik: I think more team reports would be great (even if we haven't been doing it well as ubuntu-be...)
<juliux> i think we are working on a good way for team reports, every team now has to write a approval page one a year so there is some documentation
<juliux> i personal think a monthly report is too much
<Rafik> juliux: i think it's not enough to do that yearly
<boredandblogging> it should be easy, LoCos shouldn't have to spend more than 5 minutes on it
<boredandblogging> or maybe the Georgia LoCo doesn't do enough :-P
<Rafik> boredandblogging: that's also the reason. nobody want to submit an empty report, that will activate the work
<janc_EEE_900> one issue is to find a volunteer who makes sure that it actually gets done monthly   ;-)
<janc_EEE_900> and some months we actually don't have much activity
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: easy, start a topic (forum, mailing list, ..)
<Rafik> a topic per month to write the Team Report
<Rafik> it can't be hard and it -as boredandblogging said- don't take more than 5 mins
<Rafik> Think about all the advantages for better team reporting
<highvoltage> reporting twitter^widenti.ca style
<Rafik> exchanging ideas, better involvement, better knowledge of the community
<Rafik> this should be a "must" for approved locos at least
<boredandblogging> it is a requirement, but the question is how we encourage LoCos to do it
<Rafik> a mail from you, loco council, if the loco don't submit its report ?
<boredandblogging> daniel emails the loco contact list every month
<janc_EEE_900> what if a locoteam really had no loco-activity in a certain month?
<Rafik> boredandblogging: yes. but what can better than an "official reminder" :)
<janc_EEE_900> I  mean, e.g. during summer vacation
<boredandblogging> janc_EEE_900: think its ok if teams don't have anything to report
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: it will not so strict and if it occur, it will have a positive effect
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: it will encourage the loco to do more and more
<boredandblogging> think we would like teams to report things if they are doing something
<boredandblogging> to share with the rest of the communiyt
<Rafik> boredandblogging: we don't want to have sub-communities (taking independence from the community)
<janc_EEE_900> reports with "we did nothing because nobody was at home" is a bit useless  ;-)
<boredandblogging> lol
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: no matter :p
<boredandblogging> we had talked about publicizing the works of the LoCo Council a bit more...
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: I would push my loco. I don't want to send an empty report
<boredandblogging> maybe we can also list some things from various LoCo Team Reports as well
<boredandblogging> lets try that for a couple of months
<boredandblogging> and see how it goes
<Rafik> juliux: for yearly reports, it will be much easier as you have them READY.
<highvoltage> I wish inter-loco-team communication could be better though
<Rafik> highvoltage: that's the point
<highvoltage> there's some cool things happening in some lugs that others don't always know about
<highvoltage> I check the websites of the other loco teams often to keep up with what's new and interesting
<Rafik> highvoltage: thanks, you are expressing what I have in mind :)
<highvoltage> :)
<juliux> Rafik: i can only say that is a lot of work if you do them monthly
<highvoltage> juliux: well it should take long, for example, a report could simply be:
<highvoltage> * we distributed 50 ubuntu discs
<highvoltage> * we had ubuntu cake
<highvoltage> EOF
<Rafik> + some links
<highvoltage> juliux: so it shouldn't be too much effort, right?
<Rafik> boredandblogging: I also talked with dholbach about creating a team to help locos with team reports and to collect them.
<Rafik> a team to ensure a better communication between locos
<boredandblogging> a separate team?
<Rafik> a team working under the LoCo Council governance
<popey> o/
<janc_EEE_900> hello popey
<popey> i had no clue there was a meeting, sorry
<juliux> highvoltage: where is the use for the rest if it is only that short?
<Rafik> hi popey
<janc_EEE_900> juliux: people who see something interresting can ask for more info
<janc_EEE_900> or the fridge people can ask if they see something interresting
<Rafik> juliux: links are also useful (photos, materials, preparation, ..)
<boredandblogging> i know the fridge is always looking for interesting things to post
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: +1, very useful also for the UWN
<juliux> i am not sure fo the advantage about that
<highvoltage> juliux: rest of it?
<Rafik> boredandblogging: I would love to see more news in the fridge, more infos..
<highvoltage> juliux: aah, well, links are useful of course if someone wants more information. links to wiki pages and blog entries usually work well
<juliux> i have no problems doing team reports but i am not seeing the advantage atm
<highvoltage> Rafik: quite honestly the fridge sucks.
<juliux> highvoltage: most of the stuff will be not in english
<boredandblogging> Rafik: anyone can submit material to the Fridge now
<boredandblogging> highvoltage: its mostly dead nowadays
<Rafik> boredandblogging: if they know about its existence or they take it in consideration
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: and it's too formal too now. it used to be fun and interesting
<highvoltage> boredandblogging: I miss stories like these: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/300
<highvoltage> (just one link I happen to know)
<boredandblogging> highvoltage: its a lack of contributors
<janc_EEE_900> I guess it needs a team of fresh & eager reporters   ;-)
<boredandblogging> janc_EEE_900: definitely
<janc_EEE_900> who go out to find the news
<janc_EEE_900> instead of waiting for it to come
<Rafik> boredandblogging: most of loco members don't look outside the loco because they don't know the community.. for them community = the loco.. we must find solutions to this. one of them : let them know about what is happening in the world
<janc_EEE_900> that means people who don't already have 10 other responsibilities
<boredandblogging> janc_EEE_900: yeah, if you join the LP fridge team now, you can log into the fridge
<boredandblogging> and write whatever you want
<boredandblogging> but back to the initial topic
<boredandblogging> how about we publicize the loco team reports once a month
<boredandblogging> on the planet/fridge/uwn
<boredandblogging> and see what happens?
<Rafik> boredandblogging: every thing is already there : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<Rafik> we just need to push a button to activate the thing
<boredandblogging> right, so when the November one is done, we'll publish it everywhere
<Rafik> some locos are really taking care of team reports, some other should receive some "recommendations" from you
<boredandblogging> Rafik: lets see if public visibility helps first
<Rafik> boredandblogging: okay :)
<boredandblogging> the less "official" push, the better
<boredandblogging> Rafik: anything else?
<Rafik> item 2 ?
<janc_EEE_900> boredandblogging: +1 on that, people don't like being pushed  :-)
<janc_EEE_900> Rafik: I don't think item 2 is realistic
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: why ? it's just a channel switch
<janc_EEE_900> Rafik: there are > 50 approved locoteams & only 1 #ubuntu-meeting
<boredandblogging> don't think loco members should have to join a different channel for meetings
<juliux> shouldn't be #ubuntu-meeting a english speaking channel?
<janc_EEE_900> well, some locoteams have their own -meeting channels already
<Rafik> juliux: I don't think so
<janc_EEE_900> and some locoteams have weekly meetings
<juliux> hmmm
<janc_EEE_900> if all locoteams would have to use #ubuntu-meeting, that would turn into a scheduling nightmare
<juliux> +1
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: the we could make other channels ^^
<janc_EEE_900> resulting in meetings on hours that are bad to get many participants
<Rafik> much meetings = active community
<janc_EEE_900> there are probably 10 or 20 or more locoteams in some timezones...
<Rafik> janc_EEE_900: my loco will take 1h30 every month. not too much
<janc_EEE_900> Rafik: but what if somebody already took the best slot for your loco members?
<Rafik> then we will do it on our loco channel
<Rafik> All my concerns are about the community integrity, if it's the right word. splitting the community into small entities can't be good. I think we really need find ways to keep some contact between the regular loco member and the worldwide community. we need to find ways to involve him in ubuntu itself, not only in the loco.
<boredandblogging> thats understandable
<Rafik> it's also very important for the Ubuntu reputation
<boredandblogging> but having every meeting in this channel is too much
<janc_EEE_900> locoteams can help with that, by helping loco-members getting involved
<janc_EEE_900> ... involved in the worldwide community I mean
<boredandblogging> yeah
<boredandblogging> anything else we want to talk about?
<juliux> boredandblogging: december meeting?
<boredandblogging> juliux: you mean scheduling it now?
<juliux> boredandblogging: yes
<boredandblogging> any suggetsions
<juliux> 8. december?
<janc_EEE_900> *not* on December 24th...  ;-)
<juliux> janc_EEE_900: agreed;)
<boredandblogging> is 8th during UDS?
<Rafik> UDS : Monday 8th - Friday 12th December 2008
<juliux> i think it is after uds
<juliux> boredandblogging: so better one after uds?
<boredandblogging> yes, think so
 * Rafik have to go
<Rafik> Thank you all
<boredandblogging> popey, juliux, janc_EEE_900 how about 15 dec?
<juliux> boredandblogging: ok 15. december
<boredandblogging> popey, juliux, janc_EEE_900 ok, same time as today 15 dec
<janc_EEE_900> that should be okay, I think
<juliux> boredandblogging: i prefer one hour later
<juliux> but i am also fine with same time as today
<boredandblogging> ok, next meeting 15 dec, 19:00 UTC
<juliux> good
<juliux> cu you
<janc_EEE_900> okay
<boredandblogging> cool
<boredandblogging> we are done
<boredandblogging> thanks everyone!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 11 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
<luisbg> highvoltage: LOL
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-11
<aamachu> Hi
<persia> hey
<aamachu> persia: elkbuntu: lifeless: Hi
<elkbuntu> hi
<aamachu> Hi everybody
<aamachu> MaWaLe: are you there?
<aamachu> and lifeless there
<aamachu> lifeless: are you there?
<henkjan> !schedule
<ubottu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<aamachu> persia: elkbuntu: we need nod from lifeless to start
<aamachu> and theMuso?
<aamachu> persia: are you there? and elkbuntu?
<elkbuntu> themuso doesnt seem to have been online in days
<persia> I'm here.
<aamachu> elkbuntu: Oh ho!
<aamachu> we need lifeless atleast and belutz and zakame missing as usual
<elkbuntu> sigh.
<aamachu> and MaWaLe: are you there?
<elkbuntu> seemingly not, so no real loss so far
<aamachu> lets wait for both :-)
<aamachu> elkbuntu: persia: anything else interesting to share?
<aamachu> next week we will be taking this to Community Council
<persia> Not especially.  I'm starting to look forward to the new times.
<persia> (if approved)
<lifeless> hi
<lifeless> I am
<elkbuntu> aamachu, heard any from the long-lost members?
<aamachu> long-lost members? I couldn't get what you mean by that
<aamachu> hey lifeless Welcome :-)
<aamachu> persia: Ok..
<aamachu> MaWaLe: are you there?
<MaWaLe> yup
<MaWaLe> hi folks :)
<MaWaLe> yup
<persia> aamachu, Those members of the board who are rarely present.
<lifeless> if I had a long lost member, I suspect my fiance would complain
<aamachu> persia: got it.. not from zakame
 * persia is *definitely* looking forward to adjusted meeting times
<aamachu> Hi MaWaLe!
<aamachu> Glad to see you here back.
<aamachu> Please go ahead presenting yourself and your contributions to Ubuntu
<MaWaLe> yes i'm here since long time
<aamachu> Please go ahead
<elkbuntu> we do need a bit more than that.
<aamachu> elkbuntu: means?
<elkbuntu> aamachu, we need a bit more than 'here since long time'
<aamachu> elkbuntu: is puzzling me today :-)
<elkbuntu> aamachu, i puzzle myself every day.
<aamachu> MaWaLe: Can you begin
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, start off with your wiki and launchpad pages maybe?
<MaWaLe> aamachu: can u read my posts please ???
<MaWaLe> hi folks :)
<MaWaLe> thanks
<MaWaLe> okay
<MaWaLe> I'm Wajih from tunisia
<MaWaLe>    	 	 	 	 	 	   i'm an IT manager in a governmental Organism and SENIOR consultant.
<MaWaLe> I am also a manager of a start-up which works hardly to became a Canonical exclusive partner in tunisia to promote and maintain Ubuntu here.
<MaWaLe> I'm an exclusive user of Linux since 18 years, a Red Hat contributer since 6 years and ubuntu user since Breezy release.
<MaWaLe> Member of Ubuntu-tn since his approval
<MaWaLe> Member of the Web&Tech sub-team which is in charge of administrating the official site and forum of the community. In this team I actively participate in configuring and maintaining the server and in the redaction of the content of the site and its implementation.
<MaWaLe> In the last meeting of the Management committee, I was elected as a coordinator of the Redaction Group.
<MaWaLe> I actively participate in the activities of the tunisian team.
<MaWaLe> i actively participate to promote Ubuntu in the professional sector like mentioned in my WiKi page
<MaWaLe> I try to be present as more as possible in ubuntu-tn irc channel and on the ML, to assist or help Tunisian users
<MaWaLe> I contribute in writing documents and some WiKi pages
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, can you explain the management committee and redaction groups to us?
<MaWaLe> This Saturday, I plan to take part (With Rafik who's an ubuntu member) to a conf'day in some universities at Sfax. I plan to animate many workshops (Ubuntu installation and upgrading, Install-party, Virtualisation, Ubuntu ME...)
<MaWaLe> it's done :any questions
<MaWaLe> sorry but i poasted the presentation :-/
<MaWaLe> i'll repost-it
<aamachu> MaWaLe: What do you mean by professional sector?
<elkbuntu> ...
<MaWaLe> the redaction group coordinates the efforts of all the members of the team for the redaction of media and contentsactually : the redaction team focalise on the content of the site web of the Tunisian Team
<MaWaLe> actually : the redaction team focalise on the content of the site web of the Tunisian Team
<MaWaLe> sorry : i think that i have a little problem with pidgin
<MaWaLe> do you read my posts?
<persia> We do.
<persia> Do you see our questions?
<MaWaLe> thanks for the reply
<MaWaLe> yes and i reply on all of it
<MaWaLe> either for the presentation
<aamachu> MaWaLe: are the links to documents you have contributed
<aamachu> are there links to documents you have contributed
<MaWaLe> the wiki pages of the tunisian team
<MaWaLe> and the content of the site which is under construction
<MaWaLe> and some docs shared under googledoc
<MaWaLe> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam
<MaWaLe> and its sub-pages
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, so ubuntu-tn is all only in planning yet, apart from 2 installfests and sfd?
<MaWaLe> but for the docs shared with googledoc, i'm sorry but there is no links
<MaWaLe> maybe if Rafik was here he can confirm me tolds
<aamachu> MaWaLe: are you there?
<aamachu>  MaWaLe: What do you mean by professional sector?
 * elkbuntu hands aamachu a voucher for One Free Internet.
<MaWaLe> i'm an expert in Linux (a professional consultant)
<MaWaLe> so i contribute on the professionnal plan to promote the use of Ubunt
<MaWaLe> elkbuntu: i'm tryings to contribute with the french community. there is a twinning project with the ubuntu-fr
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, from what i've read, you're off to a good start. However alot of this seems to be in the planning stage still, and I'd like to see some actual results to compliment the installfests.
<aamachu> lifeless: questions?
<MaWaLe> there is a pic album on picasa
<MaWaLe> but i lost the link
<MaWaLe> if you'll be pleasant to give me one moment i'll ask for the link
<lifeless> hmm
<persia> MaWaLe, You do seem to have been doing a bit, but it's not easily trackable.  You'd probably do well to get more of what you've done complete and linked from your wiki page.
<MaWaLe> i know and i was said that by Rafik and Nizarus which is two ubuntu members of our team
<Rafik> hello all
<lifeless> I'm with persia here
<Rafik> sorry to be late
<aamachu> MaWaLe: I was asking about documents you have contributed
<elkbuntu> Rafik, am i correct in what i've deduced from the wikipages, that alot of ubuntu-tn is in early planning stages still?
<MaWaLe> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam and it's sub-pages
<MaWaLe> http://radestn.homelinux.org/ and its subpages
<aamachu> Tunisian Team is four months, since it got approved right?
<MaWaLe> and some docs shared on googledoc
<MaWaLe> since July
<Rafik> elkbuntu: the items you see are listed as examples. may be a better list of event before July 2008 is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/ApprovalApplication
<aamachu> Rafik: Hi
<Rafik> elkbuntu: and there was also 2 or 3 real-life events since the approval
<Rafik> aamachu: hello :)
<MaWaLe> can i dispose for 5 minutes please : phone?
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, sure.
<Rafik> elkbuntu: MaWale showed up after the team approval. He was a good element when preparing the very successful participation of our team at sfd'08
<nizarus> aamachu: right we have 4 monthes since approval
<MaWaLe> thanks :)
<elkbuntu> Rafik, i'm personally at a loss to what mawale has done. Does it go beyond attending events and a few documents? what did he do to help preparations for sfd?
<Rafik> elkbuntu: MaWaLe is present and participating to what we do in the team. as he said, he is a good contributor in our work groups
<elkbuntu> Rafik, what we're looking for is results. his word needs evidence.
<aamachu> // in my work, i am doing consulting task which always leads to the migration of customers to Ubuntu //
<aamachu> Is it the DevAgora that you are mentioning here?
<Rafik> elkbuntu: I know and I can't point you to an exact page saying : he wrote it.
<elkbuntu> Rafik, his wikipage? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wajih
<Rafik> elkbuntu: he is also my second in coordinating the redaction work group where we work on the wiki pages, and some articles, all in group.
<Rafik> elkbuntu: :-)
<elkbuntu> Rafik, i've read the wikipage, and it does not convince me, unfortunately
<aamachu> Rafik: but don't you thing pointing exactly to evidences of activities is only going to help MaWale
<elkbuntu> Rafik, all i can see is him saying he attended 3 events, photos at said events, and some editing of a handful of wikipages. I have nothing more to go with.
<MaWaLe> i'm back : sorry for the delay
<aamachu> // i am doing consulting task which always leads to the migration of customers to Ubuntu // --> Was searching for evidence and linked with the Testimonials at last.. MaWaLe: is it what you are referring to?
<Rafik> aamachu: elkbuntu: I can understand. His contributions are not so visible until now. It's up to you.
<MaWaLe> yes aamachu
<persia> Based on that, I'm definitely going to say I'd like to see some visible contributions.  The work to date sounds good, but it's just not in a form we can judge.
<aamachu> MaWaLe: the wiki made it a tough task..
<Rafik> persia: you are right, be sure MaWaLe will be a good member in the future. We are starting some projects in witch he will be very involved
<elkbuntu> Rafik, i'm not even seeing his wiki editing in the MoinMoin revisions. he's edited the main page 1 out of 83 edits, for example.
<aamachu> Rafik: promising start..
<aamachu> persia: elkbuntu: lifeless: shall we take voting
<elkbuntu> aamachu, +0, will review if more visible activity can be shown at a later date.
<persia> +0 from me.  Excellent start.  Needs documentation.
<elkbuntu> aamachu, did you get my email of the meeting log to fill in the gaps?
<aamachu> yes
<elkbuntu> lifeless, your vote?
<lifeless> +0
<aamachu1> Hi
<elkbuntu> aamachu, everyone else has voted.
<aamachu1> just connected back after disconnection..
<aamachu1> I too would like to say the same..
<aamachu1> +0
<aamachu1> it was a difficult decision, with good testimonials and Rafik's presence here
<Rafik> aamachu1: I would gave +0 too
<MaWaLe> Rafik: :p
<Rafik> :p
<aamachu1> MaWaLe: Best wishes. And please keep track of all that you contribute
<MaWaLe> i'll do my best and thanks for all of you
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, if you're a long time expert, helping in the answers on launchpad is always useful, too :)
<aamachu1> I feel that would have made it for you today itself
<persia> Good luck MaWaLe.  Hope to see you back soon.
<aamachu1> MaWaLe: All the best! Keep contributing and looking forward to see you soon
<MaWaLe> but i contributed (modestly) on launchpad :)
<MaWaLe> thanks aamachu1
<aamachu1> persia: elkbuntu: lifeless: anything you wish to discuss?
<MaWaLe> it was a pleasure to be here today :)
<lifeless> aamachu1: no, I'm fine, I voted +0 above
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, it was nice meeting you, hopefully next time will be better :)
<lifeless> aamachu1: I think you were disconnected or something
<MaWaLe> thanks elkbuntu : i'll be back soon :d
<persia> I'm good for today.  See you next week.
<aamachu1> lifeless: yes. Was disconnected for few seconds
<aamachu1> fine then.. Thank you all for participating..
<aamachu1> Next meeting date and time will be announced after the Community Council meeting next week :-)
<aamachu1> Good Bye!
<Rafik> Thanks all :)
<elkbuntu> well, Amachu is all disconnected, so i guess the meeting is over :P
<nijaba> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 11 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
<nijaba> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 11 2008, 15:43:33 - Next meeting: Server Team in 16 minutes
<gravity1187> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 11 2008, 15:48:39 - Next meeting: Server Team in 11 minutes
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
<nijaba> o/
<sommer> hello everyone
 * mathiaz waves
<mathiaz> anyone else around for the server team meeting?
<gravity1187> I
<zul> hi
<mathiaz> ok - let's get this started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Today extermely important agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20081104
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server FAQ
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server FAQ
<mathiaz> nijaba: sommer: ??
<sommer> mathiaz: I made some updates last night, but there's a few left
<nijaba> mathiaz: I have not been able to work on this during the past week
<mathiaz> sommer: great.
<mathiaz> I haven't update the roadmap
<mathiaz> I'll do that later today.
<mathiaz> kirkland: did you get a chance to review the RAID section?
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
<kirkland> mathiaz: i did about a month ago, with sommer
<mathiaz> kirkland: hm - I'm refering to the Server FAQ
<kirkland> mathiaz: oh, the ServerFAQ ... no
<kirkland> mathiaz: busy week, sprinting, etc.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok
<mathiaz> sommer: how many questions are left to be reviewed?
<sommer> mathiaz: maybe 3-4, and then add the new ones... so maybe 8 totoal
<sommer> or there abouts
<mathiaz> ok - are these questions marked somehow to be reviewed?
<nijaba> mathiaz: yes, I marked them up
<mathiaz> ok
<mathiaz> anything else on the Server FAQ subject?
<sommer> don't think so
<mathiaz> ok - that's all from last week minutes.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Get rid of old libdb versions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Get rid of old libdb versions
<mathiaz> ScottK started to look into that task during hardy.
<mathiaz> It seems that there is still some work to be done, but the list of packages to be updated needs to be updated firs.t
<mathiaz> zul: do you know the status of this migration^^?
<zul> mathiaz:I think most of them are done already openldap is a different case
<mathiaz> zul: correct - openldap is trickier. I'll look into that issue once I update openldap to 2.4.12.
<zul> the list definently needs to be updated though
<mathiaz> zul: could you go over the list of packages in the roadmap and update it?
<zul> mathiaz: yep
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul to update the list of packages depending on libdb.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to update the list of packages depending on libdb.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Add augeas lenses
<MootBot> New Topic:  Add augeas lenses
<mathiaz> nxvl: ^^?
<nxvl> \o/
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> we have come to a good state of the lenses
<nxvl> we have a bunch, raphink has been closely working with upstream for this
<nxvl> also upstream is going very well
<nxvl> this summer (south american here!) i will have planty of time for doing that
<nxvl> so i hope to have the whole set of needed lenses for feature freeze
<nxvl> and as always help is really welcomed
<mathiaz> nxvl: is the list of lenses to create up-to-date on the wiki page?
<nxvl> is not hard to write those
<nxvl> yep
<nxvl> let me grab the link
<nxvl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCentralizedServiceAdministrator/Augeas
<nxvl> actually the tracking of the upstream lenses list is being done by me on tha wiki page AFAIR
<mathiaz> ok - so work to create more lenses will continue during this release cycle
<nxvl> i updates that 2 weeks ago and there are no new lenses that i'm aware of
<nxvl> mathiaz: yes
<mathiaz> nxvl: great. Thanks for tracking this task!
<nxvl> mathiaz: an hopefully finished soon
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<mathiaz> sommer: I've updated the roadmap with a link to a spec
<mathiaz> sommer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyServerGuide
<mathiaz> sommer: however that wiki page ^^ doesn't exist yet
<sommer> mathiaz: cool, I can create that based on some things that didn't get into the Intrepid guide
<mathiaz> sommer: do you have ideas/plans for the Server Guide in Jaunty?
<sommer> mathiaz: a few, and I think there are more in the server team idea pool page
<mathiaz> sommer: great - could you start to move them to the wiki page?
<sommer> mathiaz: sure will do
<mathiaz> sommer: so that we can get an overview for the work to be done for Jaunty
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to create a spec for the ServerGuide update in Jaunty
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to create a spec for the ServerGuide update in Jaunty
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> sorry
<mathiaz> sommer: any news on when the server guide for 8.10 will be put on help.u.c ?
<sommer> mathiaz: not entirely sure, but I think mdke replied to a bug saying that the files were ready and waiting to be moved to the live server
<mathiaz> sommer: ok.
<mathiaz> anything else related to the server guide in Jaunty?
<sommer> I think that's all
<mathiaz> ok.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
<MootBot> New Topic:  Merges
<mathiaz> As you may have noticed, the archive is open for jaunty
<mathiaz> so it's mergin time again
<mathiaz> I'll prepare a list of "easy" merges again
<mathiaz> as usual follow the Merging guidelines
<mathiaz> outlined on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging
<mathiaz> well - that's all I have on the Roadmap
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> anyone wants to add anything related to items on the Roadmap?
<kirkland> when doing merges, perhaps check if the package has an init script, see if it has a status action ;-)
<kirkland> and add one during the merge, if it doesn't ;-)
<mathiaz> if not - just ping kirkland - he will be glad to add one for you ;)
<mathiaz> kirkland: what's the wiki page used to track the status action?
<mathiaz> kirkland: IIRC there are some intructions there on how to add a status action to init scripts
<nxvl> i think kirkland had a wiki page were it was explained how to add one
<kirkland> mathiaz: that page needs an update for Jaunty
<nxvl> and it's really easy AFAIR
<kirkland> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InitScriptStatusActions
<kirkland> you can also run: "service --status-all" on your system
<kirkland> and see what init scripts are missing status actions
<mathiaz> kirkland: what needs to be updated?
<mathiaz> kirkland: the list of packages?
<zul> kirkland: is it just for packages in main that you are going to do the init script stuff or for universe as well?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i need to crossref that wiki page, and ensure it's accurate for Jaunty
<kirkland> zul: both;  main with more emphasis, I'd think
<zul> kirkland: ok
<kirkland> zul: but i'm happy to review/sponsor universe fixes myself
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to update the init status action wiki page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to update the init status action wiki page
<mathiaz> kirkland: I think packages marked as FIXED can be removed from the wiki page
<kirkland> mathiaz: okay
<kirkland> mathiaz: actually, it helps point to other scripts that you can emulate
<mathiaz> kirkland: good point. May be moving them a different section then
<mathiaz> kirkland: like - some examples:
<kirkland> mathiaz: sounds good!
<mathiaz> kirkland: thanks for keeping track of this!
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<mathiaz> something new and interesting to say?
<nijaba> yes, the surver survey is closing on the 15th
<nijaba> if anyone want to blog about last chance to take the survey, feel free
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm running with my entire home directory encrypted, using the same code used for Encrypted ~/Private
<kirkland> mathiaz: :-)
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm working on the bootstrapping to get this working in Jaunty
<mathiaz> the survey url is: http://survey.ubuntu.com/
<mathiaz> kirkland: awesome.
<mathiaz> kirkland: do you have a spec written for?
<nealmcb1> nijaba: how many responses on the survey now?
<mathiaz> allright - anything else?
<nijaba> mathiaz: about 4000+
<mathiaz> nealmcb1: ^^
<nealmcb1> cool
<mathiaz> allright - time to wrap up I guess
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<nijaba> nealmcb1: 6777 responses for this survey (4105 full responses, 2672 responses not completely filled out)  to be precise
<kirkland> o/
<zul> nijaba: neat
 * nijaba may not be available next week, but will try his best
<mathiaz> ok - great then.
<mathiaz> See you all next week, same place, same time
<mathiaz> and happy mergin' till then!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:48.
<nijaba> thanks a lot mathiaz
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-12
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board
<advizor> hi all
<robbiew> hi all...platform managers meeting running over a bit
 * slangasek waves and nods
<evand> hi
<liw> heippa
<cjwatson> agenda-wise, I think all that either Robbie or I have is an opportunity for people to discuss UDS planning in progress, which doesn't necessarily justify a meeting; does anyone have other business that would make it worth saying #startmeeting? :-)
<robbiew> :)
<cjwatson> merges seem to be going respectably well
<cjwatson> though if anyone feels they need help there, they should shout ...
<liw> is there anything in particular we should prepare for fosscamp?
<cjwatson> fosscamp is pretty much what you make of it
<cjwatson> if there's anything you want to discuss with the wider development community there, you'd be well advised to prepare in advance and be ready to grab timetable slots early
<cjwatson> but nothing *in particular* as such ...
 * robbiew is all for skipping unnecessary meetings
<evand> (When we're done talking about FOSSCamp, does anyone have an Intel Mac and a USB disk that they can overwrite?)
<robbiew> off the call
<robbiew> sorry...only PPC Mac here
<cjwatson> evand: yes, if I can prise it out of my wife's clutches
<liw> I have nothing further about fosscamp at this point
<evand> cjwatson: I would greatly appreciate a test of a USB creator generated image with it
<evand> just booting
<cjwatson> sure
<evand> I suspect it will fail miserably, but am writing documentation for the store and want to be sure
<evand> thanks!
<robbiew> anything else?
 * robbiew applies the 10 second rule 
<robbiew> guess not...meeting over :)
<robbiew> next time I will have a formal agenda...sorry guys
<cjwatson> yep, all sounds quiet this week; hope that just means everyone is busy with jaunty :-)
<liw> bah, now I put on a tie for this meeting, for nothing
<slangasek> :)
<robbiew> lol
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board
<ara> hello!
<pedro_> hello everybody!
<bdmurray> hi
 * cgregan waves
<heno> hey!
<heno> bdmurray, pedro_, sbeattie: around?
<pedro_> yes
<bdmurray> yep
<sbeattie> I'm here, sorry; was getting caffienated.
<heno> ara: here?
<ara> heno: here!
<heno> ogasawara will be late and schwuk is travelling
<heno> stgraber is at lunch I guess :)
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:06. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> just one item so far
<heno> [TOPIC] UDS attendees
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS attendees
<heno> There are QA members attending not in the public list yet. If you're attending the UDS, please add yourself to the public list of attendees at UDSJaunty/Attendees and LP at https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty
<pedro_> nice to see mrooney on the list of attendees ;-)
<stgraber> heno: yeah, I'll leave for lunch very soon
<ara> well, the item is self-explanatory
<heno> So if you're attending and not listed, please add yourself
<heno> [TOPIC] testing mini-sprint report
<MootBot> New Topic:  testing mini-sprint report
<heno> I can give a brief report of that
<heno> schwuk came down for two days of discussion (just left) where we had some pre-UDS talks around testing
<heno> we talked about extensions to the checkbox tool, the hardware database, ISO mirrors and such
<heno> we'll write that up and start on some spec topics
<heno> ogasawara and bdmurray: I believe you are sprinting too - how is that going?
<ogasawara> heno: we are just getting started
<cr3> heno: how will those specs concern the community?
<bdmurray> heno: it's going well
<heno> cr3: yes
<cr3> heno: when you say "hardware database", do you mean Launchpad?
<heno> cr3: right. Abel reported on progress on Monday's QA/LP call
<cr3> heno: heh, "how will those..."
<heno> cr3: anything that goes into Ubuntu affects the community ...
<heno> we are the community :)
<heno> we talked about certification too but that's a bit off-topic here
<cr3> heno: exactly, just checking
<cr3> heno: is there a roadmap for Launchpad publicly available? is the hardware database on that roadmap?
<heno> ok. any other topics?
<heno> We should go through a list of UDS topic ideas at next weeks meeting
<heno> we usually track them here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<bdmurray> where is the list of ideas again?
<ara> heno, I'll be on holiday. I will try to add ideas, before I leave, to the IdeasPool wiki page that schwuk provided
<ara> bdmurray: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/IdeaPool
<heno> thanks ara
<bdmurray> ara: thanks
<heno> any other business?
<cgregan> I have an item
<sbeattie> SRU testing; we made some progress on hardy SRUs, but there's still more that needs to be done
<sbeattie> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<sbeattie> cgregan: go ahead
<cgregan> I just posted to the QA mailing list a call for testing on Dell Mini 9. If you could help spread the word to groups outside of the QA mailing list that would be great
<bdmurray> sbeattie: is there anyway to associate pending sru's with qa-regression-test tests?
<ara> cgregan: the hw program is a great way to motivate people ;-)
<cgregan> ara: yes...that will require some resources from Dell to agree, but we are working on it
<pedro_> cgregan: perhaps, blog about it on planet? it'd have more audience
<cgregan> pedro_: yes...bdmurray just suggested that here as well.....will do
<heno> cgregan: ok, we'll see how that goes - scaling this to multiple devices will be interesting
<sbeattie> bdmurray: do you mean identifying which packages with an sru pending that also have tests in qa-regression-test or correlating srus with specific testcases in the test suite? Neither are done now (usually) but both are good ideas.
<cgregan> heno: I agree
<cgregan> heno: and a bit scary ;-)
<bdmurray> sbeattie: I was thinking about the former as a reminder to people that they exist and should be run.
<heno> on SRUs> I intended to participate more in the testing day than I managed to
<heno> sbeattie: did it pick up at all later in the day?
<sbeattie> heno: I think that's true of a lot of people.
<sbeattie> heno: not that I saw
<heno> perhaps a general call is not focused enough - perhaps we should blog about a few items that need testing
<sbeattie> though people may have been busy testing and not chattering on #ubuntu-testing; a fair number have gotten processed.
<ara> heno, sbeattie: it was announced with less than a week of advance
<ara> heno, sbeattie: and testing days are not yet popular, that people are actually waiting for them
<heno> true
<sbeattie> ara: BTW, thanks for both setting up the wiki page for it and for blogging about it.
<ara> sbeattie: np :-)
<heno> sbeattie: how was the openweek session?
<heno> any interest there?
<heno> perhaps it's worth blogging the walk-through of a few individual verifications?
<sbeattie> hard to gauge; didn't get much in the way of questions, so perhaps not.
<sbeattie> heno: yeah, either blogging it or detailing a walkthrough on a wiki page.
<sbeattie> another option would be to do it in a screencapture and then post a movie somewhere.
<bdmurray> sbeattie: maybe listing done sru's somewhere and acknowledging the verifier would help
<heno> sbeattie: ok, let's talk about those options on Friday
<heno> any other items?
<sbeattie> bdmurray: yeah! that's an excellent point, though a bit tricky to strictly identify the verifier (since it's usually just reported via a free-form comment)
<bdmurray> sbeattie: yeah, I was just thinking about how to identify verifiers
<heno> We had an LP skype call on Monday where stgraber participated - we would love to have more people from the community along next time!
<sbeattie> cgregan: one of the questions I did get after the openweek session was about a lack of progress in SRUs/updates for dell mini 9 users.
<heno> please sign up here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/LaunchpadBugsUbuntuQAMeeting
<heno> ok, let's wrap up
<cgregan> sbeattie: intersting....can you email me a synopsis?
<heno> thanks everyone!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:39.
<ara> thanks, bye!
<BB-wolf> did I miss the meeting?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
<bdmurray> BB-wolf: the qa team one yes
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
<doko> platform?
<emgent> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Platform Team 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: Current meeting: Platform Team 13 Nov 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 15:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 03:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 12:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-13
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 12:00: Mobile | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Mobile Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:02. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> StevenK, persia lool ogra everyone here?
 * persia waves
 * ogra wiggles his hand in the air
 * StevenK shores
 * persia is broken, and retreats
<davidm> Ha
<lool> hry
<davidm> OK were are all here and accounted for :-)
<davidm> Well sort of anyway, I'm on my first cup of coffee
<davidm> hi amitk
<amitk> hi davidm
<StevenK> Okay, so we have persia, me, ogra, amitk and about 1/3rd of davidm
<lool> ...
 * persia completely failed to actually edit the agenda before the meeting, but wants to talk about using a desktop manager
<davidm> There ya go
<StevenK> Oh, sorry, lool. :-(
<StevenK> I missed you in my haste to make a joke
<davidm> OK we did not have a meeting last week as most were gone holiday, meetings or something eles
<davidm> The agenda page is pretty empty today.
<jcarp> Greetings, is this the correct meeting for Ubuntu Mobile?
<persia> jcarp, It is.
<amitk> StevenK: 1/3rd of me too. The other 2/3rds is foraging for food
<davidm> So does anyone have anything status wise that is notable?  At this point we really have inports for the most part
<StevenK> Haha
<ogra> imports, merges, spec writing ...
<ogra> the usual post release - pre UDS stuff ...
 * lool was on VAC and will be away next week as well
<lool> StevenK: I'm happy to take some merges from you as I don't think I have any remaining; if you have some GNOME-ish stuff in particular
<StevenK> I've been on VAC for Monday and Tuesday, and working on non-public things for the past two days.
<StevenK> lool: I suspect most of my merges will go away.
<ogra> where will they go then ?
 * ogra is in philosophical mood ....
<StevenK> lool: I just need to look at them
<ogra> wow ... i wish mine were so easy
<ogra> but moode ist that easily scared ... i guess i have to touch it (kees asked me to merge it)
<ogra> *moodle
<davidm> Then we have merges under control.
<davidm> Lets talk about UDS then quickly, do we have all spec's in place for UDS?  amitk do you have any input for UDS for us?
 * ogra hasnt set up the blueprints yet ... will do that on the weekend
<lool> I think people have been thinking about specs, or discussions, but we need to make blueprints out of them
<amitk> davidm: i'd like to know what devices we should support out-of-the-box and what is broken in them
<ogra> blueprints and at least empty wikipages
<StevenK> I need to sort out specs
<lool> amitk: For now, I think we should revisit the jax10 and Q1U with jaunty and sum up what we miss
 * persia should write some specs as well
<amitk> davidm: eeePC, samsung Q1, jax10
<amitk> etc.
 * persia hopes the D4 can make that list
<amitk> lool: ack
<ogra> yes, we should look at eee
<ogra> but we dont have HW in the team afaik
<lool> At least the jax10 needs quite some work, not all trivial
<davidm> That is a good question we should have some review of that at UDS, with an eye to what can really be supported.
<ian_brasil> gps would be nice too
<lool> I had in mind that we could have some wiki page per device with the main status for some support
<persia> Perhaps a session "Bring your MID or UMPC for review"?
<lool> e.g. bluetooth: works, wifi: restricted etc.
<lool> ogra: You mean for the d4?
<persia> cgregan had started something like that.  I'll see if I can find it, and move it to the right place.
<davidm> persia, thanks
<amitk> lool: I did such a page for a laptop-enabling here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AmitKucheria/LaptopEnablingOnHardy
<lool> Since I'm subscribed to umpcportal, I saw a bunch of jax10 devices come out
<ogra> lool, for eeePC
<lool> amitk: Cool; also, I wonder whether we should also provision some hardware support db
<lool> ogra: Indeed
<ogra> lool, they are differing massively between the models :/
<davidm> OK who is going to run with this for a spec and blueprint?
<StevenK> persia: I like it!
<lool> Hmm I'd like to understand better how this would work as a spec or blueprint
<davidm> I like the original question, what devices are we supporting out-of-the-box
<davidm> so we can come away with a target for JJ
<ogra> yeah
<persia> Well, it make sense as a session, and we can review what works and doesn't for each candidate HW, and then decide what needs fixing.
<amitk> davidm: and a list of bugs to fix
<persia> The blueprint/spec probably has to be written post-session.
<persia> amitk, We can file the bugs in the session :)
<ogra> the "Mobile BYO HW session" ?
<lool> So, if I take that into a session description: "Discussion on hardware support status for misc devices"?
<davidm> lool, that seems to make sense to me
<lool> Or is this about allocating time to support some devices, or about ways in which we should track hardware support status?
<persia> Probably worth adding a note somewhere that people should bring hardware.
<StevenK> It isn't so much a spec, though
<lool> Ok; hardware support status/testing hackfest session so to speak
<StevenK> It's more a roundtable
 * persia thinks it's about understanding what isn't supported so sensible allocation of resources can be made for makeing more work
<amitk> lool: "misc" devices? I would like a list of "first-class" devices
<persia> amitk, "first-class" would be the most popular of those brought to the session, no?
<lool> amitk: I think your question lead to proposing a session for a similar question
<amitk> persia: no. you have obscure devices that are not available in most other parts of the world :-p
<lool> amitk: In the end, we need to decide which devices we focus our efforts on
<persia> amitk, Well, that probably means I don't get "first-class" then (as much as I wish it were otherwise)
<amitk> I am suggesting picking 3-4 of the most popular devices out there and supporting them
<davidm> [action] davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable."
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable."
<lool> Constrained with availability of the devices and time
<davidm> OK I think we can work with this off-line to develop the topic
<davidm> persia, you had a topic you wanted to cover?
<persia> Yes.
<persia> I want to switch MID to use a desktop manager for the session, rather than /etc/event.d/session
<ogra> he wants to hire a desktop manager :)
<persia> Initial fiddling about with xdm is promising, but I wondered if others felt we ought use gdm or something.
<lool> persia: a desktop or display manager?
<ogra> how well/bad supported is xdm ?
<persia> Maybe "display manager".  I'm not sure.
<ogra> the latter :)
<ogra> i dont think xdm gets much attention anywhere
<ogra> not even upstream
<persia> ogra, It's in universe, but comes from the X sources, and is part of the ubuntu-desktop task.
<ogra> but gdm is becoming a bad beast
<ogra> the new gdm will run its own user session, fire up NM and GPM
<persia> gdm just seems a little heavy for -mid, and I'm not sure if I can customise the session in a way that doesn't break anything else.
<ogra> and GSS
<ogra> in that state it wont be suitable for MID at all
<davidm> persia, for the record, why do would we want to switch from /etc/event.d/session to a  desktop manager?
<davidm> Your thoughts behind this?
<davidm> So other folks looking in can understand
<lool> persia: I think Colin mentionned a lightweight display manager used for some project; it's really a dummy one
<lool> persia: But more importantly, I'm fine with the idea but would like to document the rationale behind it
<persia> davidm, Several benefits: it allows usernames other than "ubuntu", it allows several users, it allows use of oem-setup, it reduces race conditions, and it helps reduce the number of "touching this crashed X" bugs.
<ogra> its not hard to write a display manager either
<ogra> i wrote the first iteration of ldm over a weekend for ltsp
<lool> I disagree with the first reason, find the second one not so important and think we should fix the fourth reason
<ogra> the thing is that we want the functionallity, not necessarily the display manager itself
<persia> lool, something like slim?
<lool> Could be
<lool> I can tell that it would allow switching between environments/sessions
<persia> lool, OK.  First reason is that it's a simple way to implement it :)  There are other ways.
<lool> And it would setup CK more elegantly
<lool> I'm not too motivated with the multi-user use case, but I don't mind
<StevenK> Personally, I would prefer it.
<StevenK> It would save us a bunch of headaches
 * ogra wonders if slim or any other lightweight DM would actually help with any of that
<ogra> (CK, PK etc i mean)
<ogra> i doubt they actually follow that concept closely
<ogra> it would mean much hackery on our side if they dont
<lool> ogra: I think the DM I discussed with Colin was actually a proposal to fix CK support, but I might not recall exactly the motivation
<persia> ogra, So you're suggesting writing a new one rather than extending one of those to do that?
<ogra> persia, nope
<ian_brasil> be nice to start the accessibility layer with the DM too
<ogra> i'm just pointing out that kdm and gdm are currently the only ones giving us what we want out of the box
<ogra> and that if the patching gets to much it might be easier to write our own
<ogra> that needs to be judged carefully before even starting work
<persia> Well, as previously noted, gdm is a little heavy, especially when one considers the future roadmap.
<ogra> right
<ogra> kdm would force qt in
<persia> Right, which leaves slim, xdm, wdm, etc.
<ogra> slim is likely not where we need it yet
<ogra> login.app (from windowmaker) very likely not either, nor xdm
<ogra> if you want CK and PK support you will need to patch
<ogra> and probably work against upstream
<persia> Well, is it worth trying to add CK and PK support to xdm?
<lool> persia: I really would like the reasons for using a dm to be crystal clear and solid
<lool> My concerns are that it will effectively augment used disk space and boot time
<ogra> siwthcing environments and proper session handling would be the only reasons i see ...
<lool> That's fine if we have good reasons for using one
<ogra> the latter should be fixable in the session script we use atm though
<lool> Yeah, that's the reason I would have as well
<persia> lool, I can see that.  I'm just trying to make a class of problems go away.  If you think it's really better to implement all of this in /etc/event.d/session, we can do it that way, but I feel that much of the problem is aldeady solved by a display manager.
<lool> I know using startx breaks a couple of things and bring its own issues
<lool> And switching sessions is desirable given that we have hildon and gnome based sessions
<ogra> lets put a review session on the UDS agenda
<ogra> and lets take a look at the effort involved for each solution
<ogra> and if we would work against upstream or not
<ogra> i imagine windowmaker people dont really desire PK/CK for example
<persia> OK.  I'll stop fiddlig with it and just write a spec then.
<davidm> [action] persia to write a spec for UDS on using a desktop manager for MID
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write a spec for UDS on using a desktop manager for MID
<lool> I'm fine with the move, but think it's best to have a session on using a dm and which one to use
<persia> display manager :)
<davidm> [action] persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID (correction)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID (correction)
<ogra> yeah
<lifeless> <troll> I don't know if scott would appreciate being used :>
<ogra> and review pro and con
<lool> Also, this will allow covering the two images, how the dm acts with e.g. UNR versus GNOME versus hildon, and will document why we use one
<ogra> lifeless, we're a team, he's alone ... no choice for him, muhahaha
<ogra> lool, for gnome environments we should stick with gdm
<davidm> Sounds good, OK we still have an empty agenda page so does anyone else have a topic for this meeting?  If not I'm inclined to close the meeting
<ogra> if you can run gnome on the HW gdm wont be to fat
<ogra> if you have a MID with 128M wasting 10M for an idling GDM you never use is different
<persia> That's sortable separately, and can wait on the discussion.
<ogra> yeah
<lool> Let's keep this for the session then?
<ogra> yep
<davidm> Any additional topics for this meeting?
<ogra> everyone should take a look at his favorite DM before UDS though :)
<StevenK> Haha
<lool> ogra: You don't want to know
<davidm> endmeeting going once.........................................................................................
<StevenK> My favourite DM is xterm
<ogra> thats not a DM by debian definition :P
 * persia used to use emacs as a DM
<lool> If I ever tell you what I use, you'll call me partial
<ogra> http://packages.debian.org/lenny/x-display-manager
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://packages.debian.org/lenny/x-display-manager
<davidm> endmeeting going twice.............................................
 * ogra twiddles thumbs
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:48.
<davidm> Thanks
<ogra> thanks
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team
<persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
 * persia cancels the Java meeting for lack of attendance.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-14
 * persia collects a gavel, and bangs it repeatedly
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * Hobbsee throws jelly beans at persia
<persia> NCommander has volunteered to chair the meeting.
 * NCommander nods
<persia> Do we have a volunteer to take minutes?
<persia> OK.  I'll do minutes.
 * persia hands the gavel to NCommander 
 * NCommander eats it
<NCommander> What's the first topic of discussion
 * NCommander is having trouble pulling up the wiki and the agenda
 * persia notes that the chair might find the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings useful
<NCommander> No, I know
<NCommander> the wiki was just timing out for me
<persia> Oh.  I'm up first, in association with ScottK, to talk about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Decisions
<persia> Then comes LaserJock and I to talk about wnpp for Ubuntu.
<persia> Then it's AOB.
<NCommander> [TOPIC] MOTU Decisions
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Decisions
 * NCommander gives the floor to persia 
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Decisions
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Decisions
<persia> So, we've been using a new decision system for the past couple months.
<persia> ScottK has documented it at the link above.
<persia> When we established it, we did so on a provisional basis, to determine how it worked for us.
<persia> So, the question is: how does it work for us?  Do we want to return to rule-by-those-who-attend-MOTU-Meetings?  Do we want to keep this long-term?
<persia> One item of note is that we've not had MOTU Meetings in a while.  It's probably worth discussing whether that's positive, negative, or a side effect of September and October.
<Hobbsee> well, how much success have we had with this new system?
<NCommander> My two cents on the matter is that when things go the list, it often seems to stagment
<persia> Hobbsee, We took one decision with it.
<NCommander> I thought we took more than just one.
<mok0> I think the procedure has to be faster for trivial decisions
<NCommander> Define trivial decisions
<persia> mok0, So something like taking decisions in the meeting if it seems trivial and appointing a judge for the next fortnight if it's not?
<mok0> NCommander: day-to-day decisions that everyone would agree on
<mok0> persia: yes
<NCommander> I would agree. With things like policy changes, constitution drafting, etc, we should use the current system
<NCommander> But for trival day to day matters, I think the meetings is a good place for it
<persia> And simple action items, announcements, doc changes, etc. would be decided in a MOTU Meeting?
<mok0> persia: yes
<NCommander> Sounds about right
<persia> Any dissent?
<NCommander> None here
 * Hobbsee raises hand
<Hobbsee> MOTU meetings still don't ahve high turnout at all
<Hobbsee> their frequency means that I suspect any decision for there takes even longer to make
<persia> That's true.  Do you think they'll have higher turnout if there's some discussion and decisions taken?
<mok0> Perhaps the conditions could be even tighter: only if there is not consensus at the meeting, the elaborate procedure would be used
<persia> mok0, For small attendance, I'd suggest that even in some cases where there is consensus we should use the elaborate procedure, unless we decide to not use it at all.
<NCommander> If an action from a meeting is disagreed upon, then it will get discussioned when the meeting notes are published
<mok0> persia: sounds about right.
<Hobbsee> persia: which then adds more time.
<NCommander> Generally speaking, we can decide an issue in a meeting, and if there is no dissent on the list, it should become policy
<mok0> I am concerned that meetings will be reduced to a formality, which will impede our ability to act
<persia> Hobbsee, Well, yeah.  I'm not a fan of time, but your point about attendance is a good one.
<persia> mok0, I think that's where we are now, and I think that's why nobody attends most meetings.
<NCommander> Well, it seems for me we've had less and less people showing up for these things
<mok0> Perhaps we could simply set a lower limit on acceptable attendance for the meeting to be able to decide stuff
<NCommander> When I first came, we used to have a good user base
<Hobbsee> persia: based on the recent consistently low attendance, i feel that anything along the lines of "propose something at a meeting, then do the list process" is just going to take extra time - the time in between when the issue is raised, and the meeting is held
<NCommander> mok0, we have four people active at this meeting ....
<Hobbsee> + any deferrals, due to almost no one turning up
<Hobbsee> NCommander: out of what, 80?
<persia> Hobbsee, I see what you're saying.
<sebner> NCommander: I'm now also here, finally (though I'm not a MOTU)
<Hobbsee> persia: and I don't see that as being simpler at all.
<NCommander> Hobbsee, well, we've personally discussed the issue of "active MOTU" before, but another time another place
<Hobbsee> persia: I agree with your general logic, though - if the meetings were actually better attended.
<persia> Hobbsee, How I'm understanding mok0's proposal is different: that one can raise something on the ML or the list, but that a decision is taken in the ML if trivial, or the longer procedure is continued if non-trivial.
<NCommander> Wait
<NCommander> Hold on, why don't we address the bigger problem
<mok0> I have not been good at showing up. But democracy is about participation, so I can't complain if decisions were made that I didn't like
<NCommander> Why is attendence at the meetings so poor
<sebner> NCommander: maybe a lot still think it's only for MOTUs?
<persia> Well, part of that is announcements.  We need someone who can count days to volunteer to send announcements.
 * persia is notoriously bad at that
<NCommander> sebner, I attended these before I was an MOTU, and we've had other ones do it
<NCommander> persia, we need a meeting bot :-)
<mok0> persia: a cron script?
<Hobbsee> NCommander: a lot of the time, it appears that MOTU are bad at deciding things - and often meetings such as this are filled with waffle / discussion
<sebner> NCommander: there is/was one O_o
<persia> mok0, Sure.  Do you want to implement/host it?
<Hobbsee> a lot of people seem to not care one way or the other
<NCommander> Well, we cite 80 MOTUs, but how many of those are seriously active?
<mok0> persia: yes
<persia> mok0, Thank you.
<StevenK> NCommander: Half. Ish.
<NCommander> I'd say even less
<sebner> NCommander: maybe 30
<StevenK> You can't give a hard answer.
<NCommander> RIght
<StevenK> Peoples time constraints may change on a week to week basis
<sebner> The general way is to wait until auto expire,hmm?
<NCommander> Well, maybe we need a better way to set meeting times
<persia> sebner, No.  Some people choose to leave.
<StevenK> sebner: "Now, beg"
<NCommander> I missed the last two because they are so freaking inconvenient
<StevenK> (To be extended)
<persia> NCommander, The trick is that we're all over the world.  Every time is bad for most of us.
<sebner> persia: some
<StevenK> s/most/some/
 * StevenK high fives sebner 
 * sebner high fives StevenK back =)
<NCommander> persia, right, but it just seems to me the times are a little arbitrarily
<persia> Fine.  Some.
<persia> NCommander, Oh, completely.  I picked them because they are round numbers.
<NCommander> Maybe if we regulate times to periods where a large group of MOTU is online, we'd get better turnouts
<persia> Nobody has ever made a serious effort to change them since I picked them.
<persia> (this has been a long time now, since before I was MOTU)
<NCommander> Well, looking at the MOTU map
<mok0> NCommander: good idea...
<NCommander> Its largely three chunks of time periods. THose in Austrilian/Japnese team
<NCommander> Those in European time
<NCommander> And those in American time zones
<mok0> What time is it now in Aussie?
<persia> Moderated by the fact that some people have time in the day, and some in the evenings.
<sebner> But this is something we can't change as long as we want a meeting "together"
<Hobbsee> mok0: 11:28pm
<persia> It's between 20:18 and 23:18 in Australia.
<Hobbsee> (aest, anyway)
<NCommander> sebner, and mok0 where are you based
<mok0> Europe
<NCommander> HRm
 * sebner high fives mok0 
<sebner> ^^
<NCommander> I think we need to bring this to the list, and work out periods groups of people are most online
<NCommander> And then cycle the time for the meetings
<sebner> NCommander: europe, 01:19 pm
<NCommander> One time favoring americans, then the next one, favoring Europe, and again favoring the Austraillians
<NCommander> It might help get better turnout
<Hobbsee> NCommander: meetings have to actually be a good use of time for people to come to, though.
<NCommander> Its pointless to have a meeting if no one can attend
<mok0> NCommander: you got that right
 * NCommander wonders if we're approaching a catch-22
<persia> That was loosely what I was shooting for with the three current times.
<mok0> I haven't really seen anyone complaining about the times. We all know that it is inherently difficult
<persia> Well, the Pacific is wide.  Wouldn't be bad to move 04:00 UTC to 06:00 UTC, I suspect.
<sebner> persia: would be better for europe, though I still sleep at that time :P
<mok0> The agenda is know before the meeting, so if you have something you REALLY want to say, you can do it before the meeting
<NCommander> persia, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have staff privilleges in ~motu. I would recommend creating a poll with various times in UTC, and we could work out what times are best available for people
<persia> sebner, And not terribly worse for americas I think.
<sebner> persia: yep
<persia> NCommander, That's been tried.  It was never successful.  I can do that, but I think it's better to just agree on some, using either decision process.
<mok0> NCommander: Allow me to hypothesize that the results will cluster in three groups :-)
<NCommander> mok0, no that I know, but we can use the average of those three clusters to work out the best times for the majorities
<NCommander> I know with Kubuntu
 * sebner is wondering how other world wide communities work on that problem
<NCommander> When we decide to have a meeting, we poll people who are online, and then use a website to determine the common time periods
<NCommander> We don't schedule our meeting too far in advance
<persia> I *really* don't like that suggestion.
<mok0> Most of us are awake at least 16 hours a day, so at any given time we should be able to get 2/3 of all MOTUs to participate
<persia> Last time we did that, we didn't have a MOTU Meeting for two months.
<NCommander> persia, no, I'm just saying how Kubuntu does it
<NCommander> With Xubuntu, our meetings usually decided upon happening five minutes before we did them <g>
<persia> Yes, I'm just stating opposition.
<sebner> mok0: I sleep at least 10 hours per day ^^
<mok0> sebner: you are awake now, right?
<persia> sebner, Don't worry.  There are others who make up your average.
<sebner> mok0: it's midday ;)
<sebner> persia: heh, sure
<NCommander> Now if we decide to adjust the times, we need to decide what these meetings are for
<mok0> At this meeting, we have people from Australia, Europe, and US(?)
<sebner> mok0: I think we have the same time zone \o/
<persia> mok0, Yes.
<NCommander> Its been somewhat -EUNDEFINED in purpose since the change in voting
<mok0> sebner: we are
<NCommander> mok0, its 7:26 my time EST
<sebner> cool =)
<NCommander> I think we have two distinct but overlapping issues. How to improve member meeting attendence, and futhermore, what, if anything these meetings are for if we stay with the current voting system
<mok0> So 13:UTC would make it more convenient for you, but less convenient for Hobbsee
 * Hobbsee doesnt' really mind
<Hobbsee> not like i add much to the meetings anyway :)
<persia> Well, with the current system, we're supposed to discuss issues on the ML at the meeting, and appoint judges, but we haven't done that, despite many discussions that haven't reached useful conclusion.
<mok0> Hobbsee: we like to have you around :-)
<NCommander> persia, I disagree
<NCommander> persia, the SRU policy was worked out mostly through meetings, even if we didn't completely conclude it here
<NCommander> er, keyteam
<NCommander> The biggest problem is these meetings are just a tad open ended. When we set something must be done, we made great progress during the KeyTeam discussion
<persia> NCommander, Right.  I'm talking about the debdiffs discussion, the REVU Upload permissions discussion, the upstream contributions discussion, etc.
<persia> WIth the old system, those would have been MOTU Meeting topics.  With the new system they are ML topics, but haven't been coming here to get a judge.
<mok0> The only solution is to keep discussing until consensus is reached
<persia> Well, we don't need complete consensus, just rough consensus.
<mok0> Sure
<NCommander> Personally, I think these issues should be decided and discussed here, post it to the list
<NCommander> I feel that most of us are fairly like minded on a lot of issues (i.e., 6-7 people is a good sample size for 30-40 active MOTU)
<persia> OK.  It's getting on, and I've other topics.
<NCommander> Ok, I guess we're tabling the "Do we like the new method" discussion :-P!
<mok0> Summary on this discussion?
<persia> Well, I'm not wanting to table it, so much as I think we've covered a lot of it.
<sebner> half an over is already over =)
<persia> To me it sounds like most people agree with mok0, but that attendance is a concern, and that we have to balance that when taking decisions.
<NCommander> We could comprise
<NCommander> How about MOTU meetings can decide on trival issues
<NCommander> But allow a good grace period for people to object on the list
<mok0> Look, there is no rule saying we can't revise a decision at a later time
<persia> Or just allow disputed decisions to be rediscussed.
<NCommander> If there is an objection, the change is suspended until a comprise can be made on the list, or the objection is removed.
 * NCommander thinks we all just said the same thing
<persia> Right
<persia> mok0, Would you be willing to write up your proposal and judge consensus on the ML?
<mok0> sure
<NCommander> [ACTION] mok0 to write up MOTU meeting decision policy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mok0 to write up MOTU meeting decision policy
<NCommander> [TOPIC]Discuss usefulness of a wnpp package for use with Ubuntu ITPs
<MootBot> New Topic: Discuss usefulness of a wnpp package for use with Ubuntu ITPs
 * NCommander points to persia
<persia> OK. So LaserJock suggested that Ubuntu ought have a wnpp package, but has very limited time availability, so I'm presenting.
<NCommander> I personally don't see the point
<persia> The idea would be to move all the needs-packaging bugs against wnpp as an aid to triaging, and to more closely align with Debian, who uses the fake wnpp package for such things.
<NCommander> All needs-packaging bugs submitted have the needs-packaging tag
<NCommander> Which serves the same purpose
 * Hobbsee thought the proposal was to put them on brainstorm
<sebner> persia: benefits?
 * NCommander thinks brainstorm is a worse idea
 * sebner agrees
<persia> The primary advantages are that 1) it reduces noise in the bugs-without-a-package set, which helps bugsquad, 2) it makes it easier for automated systems to link bugs between Malone and the BTS, and 3) It helps build shared terminology, which may increase packages uploaded to Debian.
<persia> As an example, it would be convenient to be able to do a quick search for "bugs not fixed upstream" on wnpp, which would show targets for adoption and introduction to Debian.
<NCommander> Are the LP developers willing to implement such a system?
<persia> Hobbsee, This was proposed, but that means *less* tracking, and less coordination.  To me it's tantamount to saying "We don't actually care about these, and are trying to ignore them".
<sebner> sounds reasonable
<persia> NCommander, Dunno.  I'm not going to ask LP about fake packages unless MOTU wants it.
<persia> That said, if LP can't do it, uploading a very small fake package isn't hard.
<NCommander> I personally don't see a lot of point in doing it.
<sebner> persia: what would happen to the existing needs-packaging bugs? deleted? moved? remain?
<NCommander> sebner, we can move them to a package easily enough
<sebner> NCommander: there are tons of them though
<NCommander> sebner, they're all tagged needs-packaging, a LP admin can kick the DB if needs be
<sebner> NCommander: ok sound good
<persia> sebner, But the bugsquad will be *very* happy to help, since they currently have to ignore them on a daily basis, and it makes it harder for them to do their work.
<NCommander> persia, can't you hid bugs tagged?
<persia> NCommander, Not easily.
<mok0> How will it work with linking to Debian ITP bugs?
<NCommander> Well, two other points
<NCommander> Why not simply have a project
<persia> mok0, bugs against package "wnpp" in Ubuntu would link against bugs against package "wnpp" in Debian.
<NCommander> i.e. like Ubuntu Backporters
<NCommander> They're out of the way for instance
<persia> Because people file bugs against "Ubuntu" for them now, and most of the needs-packaging bugs aren't filed by developers.
<mok0> persia: but that wouldn't be really useful, because both have hundreds of bugs
<NCommander> persia, I also don't know the usefulness of linking against ITPs
<NCommander> A *lot* of ITPs get filed and then just sit there
<mok0> NCommander: keeping track of information is never bad
<persia> mok0, Well, it's useful for statistical purposes, but I agree it's not as useful as it is for many packages.
<NCommander> In addition, if we're going to track against ITPs, it might be easier to just get the package to go into Debian
<NCommander> We just need a DD or two who is willing to sponsor uploads on a regular basis
<mok0> NCommander: that is not a bad idea
<persia> NCommander, The point of linking is that the bugtrackers can automatically identify when an Ubuntu bug is closed in Debian, or when a candidate package for a Debian bug is available in Ubuntu.
<persia> The problem with getting an upload monkey is that someone has to be the maintainer.
<sebner> NCommander: nice idea but you know, we have DD's around but debian mentors still show a lot packages by ubuntu that are around for months
<NCommander> sebner, unlike REVU, you actually have to kick people to look at your packages at mentors
<NCommander> persia, Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Team
<NCommander> :-P
<NCommander> The icedove and iceape packages in Debian are Maintainer: Ubuntu Mozilla Team
<sebner> NCommander: sure but in general there are also packages by MOTUs so DD that also work in Ubuntu could upload them without problems
<persia> NCommander, Well, not unless that gets organised as a Debian maintainer, which is a larger issue.
<mok0> If we were able to channel new packages via Debian it would not be a lot of extra work up front
<NCommander> persia, organized as a Debian maintainer?
<persia> NCommander, consensus in both Debian and Ubuntu that it makes sense.
<NCommander> Well, Debian has Debian Maintainer status
<persia> That's a side issue.
<NCommander> no I mean
<NCommander> It might be worth talking with the DPL if they are willing to look towards increased combilation between Ubuntu and Debian w.r.t. to new packages
<persia> Anyway, let's defer the details of how we might integrate with Debian if we adopted the use of wnpp, and talk about whether we want to adopt the use of wnpp.
<NCommander> If the packages are also listed day zero NMUable, you usually get help from the QA team
<mok0> Isn't it better to set up a specific Project on LP, call WNPP?
<mok0> called
<NCommander> I think we need to sitdown with the DPL or some one of authority on Debian and see if we can find a good common ground, since -0ubuntuX packages with no Debian version just increase our burdens
<mok0> It seems to me that "pseudopackages" are not a great thing to add to LP
<persia> mok0, There's no way to shift bugs between distrotasks and project tasks, so that ends up with lots of "Invalid" which confuses users.
<NCommander> persia, usability bug in Launchpad :-)
<NCommander> wgrant, ^
<mok0> ah. There is no such thing as a "friend" project ;-)
 * persia doesn't mind putting together a real package documenting the Ubuntu new packages procedure and calling it "wnpp" if LP doesn't already do pseudopackages
<wgrant> Long-standing bug which isn't going to be fixed for a while, yes.
<persia> NCommander, Yes, but it's not going to be fixed any time soon.
<wgrant> Wow, that synced well in the middle.
<wgrant> LP won't let you assign a bug to a package which isn't published anywhere in the distro.
<wgrant> So it needs to be a real package, or have a hack in RF.
<mok0> persia: would you be able to link from a specific ITP in the wnpp package to the equivalent one in BTS?
<persia> mok0, Yes.
<NCommander> so
<NCommander> What is our action on this one
<persia> wgrant, Thanks for the clarification.  I'll probably have to chat with some people to determine if an Ubuntu-local wnpp doc package would be acceptable then.
<NCommander> [ACTION]persia to determine if a wnpp package is acceptable
<MootBot> ACTION received: persia to determine if a wnpp package is acceptable
 * mok0 still thinks a project is the logical place to put this. If it doesn't currently allow us to exchange tasks, that shoulld be fixed., it should be made to work
<StevenK> s/package/project/ ?
<persia> Does that mean there's insufficient objection that I should proceed?
<persia> StevenK, No, package.  LP bug.
<mok0> persia: proceed
<StevenK> Right. I object to a package
<StevenK> It isn't one
<StevenK> And I've always disliked the pseduo-packages on the Debian BTS
<mok0> StevenK: would you mind if we have our options clarified?
<persia> StevenK, OK.  What do you suggest?
<StevenK> mok0: Nope.
<StevenK> persia: Further Discussion
<mok0> I suggest that persia goes ahead but we discuss again later
<persia> StevenK, Before I discuss feasability and acceptance?  What needs discussion?
 * sebner agrees
<mok0> We need some technical input from the LP guys.
<StevenK> Right, sorry, I am trying to do four things at once.
<mok0> They may have their own thoughts on the matter
 * NCommander has one final topic to bring up
<StevenK> persia: Okay, if your action is discussion, then I withdraw my objection
<mok0> Wait, we need to summarize
<persia> StevenK, OK.  Thanks.
<persia> I'll bring it back before preparing any package for REVU.
<mok0> persia: if you are going to discuss with the LP guys, can you please ask if this could be done via a project?
<persia> mok0, I'll ask, but I asked about fixing that bug about two or three weeks ago, and was definitely told it wasn't a priority.
<mok0> I think most agree that it would be good to remove ITP from the bug list, but let's not decide on the implementation
<mok0> Perhaps we can decide the former?
<NCommander> ACK
<persia> I don't want to do that.
<persia> It's precisely contrary to the item I brought to the meeting.
<persia> I like using bugs for packaging requests.
<NCommander> persia, I think he means bugs against the Ubuntu project, not removing bugs period
<mok0> persia: don't you mean: "I like using LP to track packaging requests"??
<wgrant> Ubuntu isn't a project.
<persia> Oh.  Yeah.  I'm good for that.
<persia> mok0, No.  I like using bugs.  I *really* don't care if it's LP.
<mok0> NCommander: yes that's what I meant
<NCommander> I think the issue merits more discussion
<mok0> +1
<sebner> +1
<NCommander> +1
<NCommander> So
<sebner> interesting idea but more discussion is appreciated
<persia> So I'm to talk to LP and such, or not?
<mok0> we can always agree on that, lol
<NCommander> persia, its good to know that LP can/can't do :-)
<mok0> persia: yes talk to LP, find out what options we have
<wgrant> There's a conveniently placed bigjools over there ->
<sebner> NCommander: want/don't want?  ^ ^
<NCommander> persia, so ask the LP devs, but lets not make any changes until we know specifically need
<persia> Well, OK, but it's always easier to talk to LP when there's an actual use case behind any discussion.
<sebner> persia: you can tell them if it's possible, we'll do it :P
<mok0> persia: afaiu, they need to make changes to LP no matter what
<persia> mok0, Well, there are changes, but if we go with a non-psuedopackage, it doesn't require any LP code changes.
<mok0> ok yes
<mok0> the discussion section in the bug section of that package will be *huge*
<mok0> iow unusable
<persia> Well, more usable than what we have now, but yes, far from ideal.
<mok0> I far prefer a separate LP project, but I think I'm alone with that wish
<NCommander> mok0, nope
<wgrant> If we can turn distro tasks into project tasks and vice-versa, a project would work.
<mok0> persia: will you ask about that?
<persia> mok0, I'll ask, but as I've said, I asked about that a couple weeks ago, and the response wasn't promising.
<mok0> persia: tell'em we want it
<wgrant> mok0: You forget that we're only Ubuntu.
<persia> Right.  I'm done.
<mok0> wgrant: one of the really big LP users, though...
<wgrant> mok0: One would think so, yes...
<sebner> mok0: the biggest by far?
<mok0> NCommander: last item?
<NCommander> [topic]REVU Usage Permissions
<MootBot> New Topic: REVU Usage Permissions
<NCommander> Its fairly common knowledge we have an extremely high signal to noise ratio on REVU
<Hobbsee> we do?
 * persia objects to this topic
<NCommander> Ok
 * NCommander drops the topic
<Hobbsee> then what's with all the threads saying that things should be expired, if they're all great?
<persia> It's a topic of current ML discussions.  Bringing it to the MOTU Meeting without prior notice doesn't satisfy the goals of discussion.
<NCommander> Fair enough
<NCommander> Ok, anyone else got anythign?
<persia> Adding it to the agenda for the next meeting would be good though :)
<NCommander> lol
<NCommander> any final news?
<mok0> Well we can discuss it without make decision, yes?
<NCommander> Yes, that was the point
<wgrant> NCommander: You mean low signal to noise?
<NCommander> maybe
<mok0> This is about ~6 packages about to be "expired". Those packagers probably don't care anymore
<sebner> mok0: probably? very likely I'd say
<mok0> OTOH, we can go over and comment on them right now...
<mok0> It's REVUday!!
 * persia tends to find reasons to reject packages before expiring them.  s/hardy/jaunty is always a good start
<persia> Anyway.  Is there anything else for this meeting, or shall we reconvene at 20:00 on the 28th?
<mok0> +1
 * sebner agreees
<persia> NCommander ?
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:19.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-15
<zebulon> Anyone to help me with some software testing, link: http://fisygradis.sourceforge.net
<Hobbsee> zebulon: no advertising in here, thanks.  This is a meeting channel.
<zebulon> OK my mistake ;)
<Hobbsee> zebulon: oh, and cross-posting is generally frowned upon, too :)
<zebulon> hobbsee: Oh so sorry, I am such a pain sometimes and can you believe, I am a phone interviewer!! lol
<Hobbsee> zebulon: oh dear :)
<Hobbsee> zebulon: still, what you might do is post it on the forums, in the offtopic section (or elsewhere, if you can find somewhere more relevant).  They have a lot more people, and would probably be more inclined to test for you :)
<zebulon> Ok fine I am still a bit new on irc , can you give me an example of off topic channel?
<Hobbsee> zebulon: www.ubuntuforums.org
<Hobbsee> was where i was suggesting
<zebulon> Ok this is not irc, Is it?
<zebulon> Hobbsee: Anyway thx for your advices :D
<Hobbsee> zebulon: this is irc yes.  That isn't
<zebulon> Hobbsee:Bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-09
<stochastic> Hi everyone.  Who all is here for the Ubuntu Studio Developer's meeting?
<TheMuso> Hey stochastic.
<stochastic> hey TheMuso
<stochastic> TheMuso are we the only two here?
<TheMuso> stochastic: So far.
<stochastic> Well should we proceed with discussion of the agenda?
<stochastic> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2009Nov9
<TheMuso> Since there is only the two of us atm, I don't really feel like going through it, since I've just had a day of work. If others were in attendance, I'd be ok with it however.
<jussio1> Ã¶/
<TheMuso> stochastic: However if you want to, thats fine with me.
<jussio1> stochastic: go for it
<stochastic> hi jussio1
 * jussio1 slaps whoever invented mornings...
<stochastic> well since jussi is here now, I think it's worth at least skimming through the topics
<TheMuso> ok
<stochastic> so Discussion of Karmic
<stochastic> are users happy?
<stochastic> there were lots of upgrade issues I heard about
 * TheMuso thinks so, overall. It doesn't help that we have some users giving bad information to help others out of a bind.
<jussio1> as long as the RT kernel works, most users are happy.
<stochastic> yeah, in general people like Karmic
<TheMuso> stochastic: Well since we don't have enough man power to even test fresh installs, I am not surprised users have upgade issues, since we don't really test it.
<jussio1> how is it running? whats the status?
<stochastic> jussio1, you mean the RT kernel?
<TheMuso> jussio1: Overall the RT kernel is doing very well. I think a few users are having issues with suspend/resume, but we don't promote that as something we support.
<jussio1> yeah
<jussio1> TheMuso: ok, great.
 * jussio1 is a little bit out of stuff atm. 
<stochastic> has any user reported the Swami thing?
<TheMuso> Well I made a note during karmic that swami needed updating, but never got back to doing it.
<stochastic> yeah, okay, I haven't heard anyone saying that the soundfont support is broken in any way
<stochastic> anything else to say about Karmic?
<TheMuso> not from me
<stochastic> Okay Lucid:
<stochastic> Jack into Main
<stochastic> what are we needing to do at this stage?  wait for some debian syncs?
<stochastic> TheMuso, jussio1, are you two planning on helping with this move of jack into main?
<jussio1> stochastic: not overly, there are others who are interested. Ive many many things on my plate atm. Although I may be able to do some testing if required.
<TheMuso> stochastic: Yes, I need to review all the pieces first, and take appropriate action, will take care of it once initial merges/syncs are out of the way.
<stochastic> TheMuso, okay great.  I think libffado may need a sync request.
<stochastic> TheMuso should a schedule be built for this project?
<TheMuso> stochastic: I don't think so.
<stochastic> okay, anything else need to be said about Jack in Main?
<TheMuso> nope
<stochastic> okay I put growth in Graphics and Video metas on the agenda because I'd like to see a more balanced userbase
<TheMuso> No omment, not a user of these
<TheMuso> comment
<TheMuso> I just add/remove whats asked for.
<stochastic> fair enough
<jussio1> hrm
<jussio1> I think we have to cater to the users out there.
<stochastic> I'll consult with some people on what new possible tweaks we might offer.  The Video package might see some stable and user friendly editors coming in Lucid.
<stochastic> jussio1, you mean our current userbase?
<stochastic> okay, well constant meta package consultations need to be looked into anyway
<jussio1> stochastic: I mean that we need to check that we have users actually using the features we offer. if not, we need to consider dropping some.
<stochastic> true
<TheMuso> jussio1: Agreed, disks are big as it is, if we can cut them down as much as possible, then that would be good.
<jussio1> Perhaps some sort of user survey or something is in oreder. (havent really thought it through)
<stochastic> Should we plan on sending an e-mail to the users list to gauge interest in applications?
<stochastic> I'll happily do this.
<TheMuso> sounds like a good idea
<jussio1> stochastic: email might be a bit long, given how many apps we ship
<jussio1> perhaps an email with a wiki link?
<jussio1> or somethign similar.
<stochastic> jussio1, okay that might work too
<jussio1> but yeah, some sort of user feedback is important.
<stochastic> okay anything else to say on this topic?
<TheMuso> no
<stochastic> I think we can safely skip over the next two agenda points "updated packaging whishlist" and "motin's suggestion regarding using the ubuntustudio ppa for jack package testing"
<TheMuso> right
<stochastic> anyone want to talk on those points?
<stochastic> the next item is Kernel Plan
<TheMuso> We don't know what mainline kernel will be used for lucid yet, so can't do anything else till we know that.
<TheMuso> thats pretty much it atm.
<stochastic> fair enough
<stochastic> next item is Ubuntu Studio Controls
<jussio1> is there a reason we cant stick with an older kernel?
<TheMuso> jussio1: It breaks different pieces of the userspace stack in weird and wonderful ways.
<jussio1> :(
<jussio1> hrr
<TheMuso> jussio1: We had a mis-aligned alsa stack in hardy, and it broke things in painful ways for some people.
<jussio1> right. moving n then
<stochastic> Alex has recently expressed in a need-packaging bug that he's too busy right now to devote much time to Ubuntu Studio so I don't imagine he'll be around to help with Controls updates
<TheMuso> right
<jussio1> alex?
<stochastic> rexbron
<TheMuso> s/alex/andrew/
<stochastic> whoops
<stochastic> sorry
<TheMuso> np
<stochastic> Is Luis knowledgeable in the Controls code?
<TheMuso> I believe so.
<stochastic> Cory was saying Luis and Andrew should be penned in to migrate Controls to GTKBuilder
<jussio1> its python anyway, and not too large, so if we can find a new someone they could learn reasonably quick.
<stochastic> but we also have a number of Controls bugs we need to tackle.
<stochastic> I'm partially knowledgeable with the codebase
<stochastic> a new developer would be a great thing
<TheMuso> right
<stochastic> jussio1, do you have anyone in mind?
<jussio1> no
<stochastic> okay, well in conversations with everyone keep this project in the back of your head
<stochastic> anything else to say on Controls?
<TheMuso> no
<stochastic> Next on the agenda is the artwork to be used project-wide, but Cory isn't around.  I trust he has a plan.
<stochastic> I sure am glad Cory has time to work on this
<stochastic> last Lucid-specific topic is "What elements need to be added to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/LucidTaskList "
<stochastic> I think we need to announce this page a little bit and try to get new team members to chip in a bit through those projects.
<jussio1> yes.
<TheMuso> right
<TheMuso> agreed
<jussio1> and we need to be a little more open with "team membership". it needs to be a little less "exclusive" so people feel more comfortsble contributing.
<TheMuso> The ubuntustudio-dev team? I don't agree.
<TheMuso> The team has write access to seeds and packaging branches in bzr.
<TheMuso> IMO one has to earn their access to that data.
<jussio1> TheMuso: I dont mean adding people to it, but there needs to be something further for casual contributors - similar to erics testing team
<TheMuso> jussio1: Ok thats fine then.
<stochastic> speaking of the Testing Team, that's the final agenda topic
<stochastic> Cory was the only one to speak out with any form of opposition/critique on the mailing list
<TheMuso> I am fine with it.
<jussio1> big +1 from me.
<stochastic> Okay, I'll go ahead with the plan and we can talk about how successful it is as it progresses
<TheMuso> Ok great.
<stochastic> Can I assume I should subscribe ubuntustudio-dev as members of the testing team?
<TheMuso> yup
<stochastic> great.
<stochastic> anything else to say before we ajourn the meeting?
<TheMuso> not fro me
<jussio1> nope
<stochastic> oh, we need to sort out a re-scheduling of meetings
<TheMuso> not enough of us here to make a decision on that
<stochastic> I guess the Mailing List is the best medium for that
<TheMuso> I can be flexible with those times, so I'd rather leave it up to others
<TheMuso> s/those times/times/
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> jussio1, you have any preferences?  talk was about moving the meetings to Sundays
<stochastic> Well I think we can cal the meeting over now.  Thanks for showing up TheMuso and jussio1.
<TheMuso> stochastic: np thanks guys.
<jussio1> stochastic: this is ok. euro day is generally good.
<stochastic> jussio1, okay I'm sure we can work around that.  Watch for announcements/discussions on the mailing list
<stochastic> ttyl
<dholbach> good morning
 * robbiew waves
<kees> heya
<mdeslaur> hello
<kees> oh
<kees> ok, quick weekly review then to UDS topic/session/todo items?
<kees> I've got openjdk-6 updates coming from doko, and will push for getting a kernel update rolling
<kees> I'm going to be examining our CVE tracker data and tweaking a bunch of stuff to better reflect reality so the new graphs don't make it look like we're slackers
<kees> and I'm on triage.
<kees> that's it from me.  jdstrand up next
<jdstrand> o/
 * jdstrand for some reason thought the meeting was an hour from now...
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place
<jdstrand> I plan to continue to follow-up on/file SRUs this week
<jdstrand> poke at redhat-cluster, and a couple of other security updates assigned to me
<jdstrand> I should have a firefox update again this week
<jdstrand> and then UDS preparation
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> my turn
<mdeslaur> I'm working on openldap.
<mdeslaur> that'll take a while
<mdeslaur> and will spend some time preparing for UDS topics
<mdeslaur> that's it.
<kees> ok, cool.  robbiew before we hit the UDS idea list, do you have anything to add to it, or other topics to go over?
<robbiew> nah..you're good ;)
<jdstrand> I just added a bunch of non-session/work-items for me, so be sure to refresh the page
<kees> okidoky
 * kees refreshes
<robbiew> I suppose I should work on a Security track for next UDS though :/
<kees> robbiew: we had one at the last UDS.  :)
<robbiew> hmm...let me check then on this one
<kees> "apport hooks (vs https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/+packagebugs)"
<kees> this is something that bdmurray had called attention to a while back
<kees> basically, if there is an Ubuntu team doing triage for a set of packages, it likely makes sense for those packages to have apport hooks
<kees> so, it might be worth having a session to review those package, and perhaps identify others, that we should build hooks for.
<kees> thoughts?
<mdeslaur> yeah, makes sense
<mdeslaur> not sure it's uds-session worthy though
<kees> i.e., too much time to discuss it?
<jdstrand> I'm not sure it is security team specific
<kees> right, bdmurray's call wasn't security team aimed, but I figured we could take on his call-to-action within our team
<jdstrand> ie, we are already doing that for the packages we update
<mdeslaur> kees: yeah...it's a 10 minute discussion
<kees> mdeslaur: really?  I don't think we have hooks for anything listed here except apparmor: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/+packagebugs
<jdstrand> though, that reminds me, we should generalize and improve the apparmor hook
<kees> (perhaps none are needed?)
 * jdstrand added that
<mdeslaur> kees: oh, well if you feel there's something to discuss, no problem. I thought it was more of a to-do.
<kees> how should we define the work for hooks, then "Create list of packages that have been reviewed for apport hooks, with justification for why they lack a hook"?
<jdstrand> seems fine
<kees> mdeslaur: I figure it'd be nice to review packages that get a lot security bugs, and our subscribed list
<kees> Ok, I'll draw up a session for it and dream of ways to fill 40 minutes.  ;)
<mdeslaur> kees: oh, yeah, that's a good idea
<mdeslaur> that'll fill 40 minutes
<jdstrand> kees: well, really anything that ships an AA profile could benefit from a hook
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> we started to do that, but didn't retroactively add them
<kees> "review sponsorship process and compare to security-sponsorship"
<jdstrand> seems like a good sessino
<jdstrand> session
<kees> this is a request from dholbach to try to merge our sponsorship process to standard processes.
 * jdstrand nods
<kees> I'm really not sure the right approach to take with it, so I agree, face-to-face with dholbach and others would be valuable here.
<kees> " http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LowerProcessCapabilities "
<kees> I'd like to see us do this.
<kees> I don't think it's a few subtle change...
<jdstrand> I would to, but, aren't we always going to get push back for filestystems that don't support it?
<kees> especially "the shadow file permissions have been changed to 000"
<jdstrand> oh wait
<jdstrand> that was fscaps
<jdstrand> nm
<mdeslaur> is it worth doing that, or getting apparmor profiles for those root daemons?
<mdeslaur> that could be something we discuss
<kees> I think we should pursue non-MAC methods of hardening along with MAC
<jdstrand> kees: are these patches that fedora is planning to just carry ad infinitum? or are they pushing to upstreams?
<kees> jdstrand: don't know, that would be worth investigating before the session
<kees> is this session-worthy?  I think we'd need foundations in on it.
<mdeslaur> we could have a session to determine if it's worth doing from a security point of vue
<jdstrand> 000 for /etc/shadow
<jdstrand> man, that is hardcore
<jdstrand> we'd totally need foundations in on it
<jdstrand> that could *totally* break things :P
<jdstrand> 555 for /bin
<kees> jdstrand: well, it would only break for daemons that had specifically dropped DAC_OVERRIDE
<jdstrand> "neat"
<kees> jdstrand: by default, a root-running process has DAC_OVERRIDE
<jdstrand> I'd need to review it more to have a worthwhile opinion
<mdeslaur> it seems the list of daemons that _can_ drop DAC_OVERRIDE is very limited
<kees> in the interests of terrifying the foundations team, I think I'd like to make a session for this.
<kees> mdeslaur: yeah
<mdeslaur> kees: lol :)
<jdstrand> sounds risky-- perhaps too risky for LTS, but maybe we could review the topic in general, the apps it might affect, and whether or not to pursue it  (whether for lucid or lucid+1)
<mdeslaur> "the following apps are not confinable: console-kit-daemon, cups, postfix, rsyslog, auditd, audispd"
<mdeslaur> those are the ones I _want_ to confine :(
<ScottK> Insist it's essential for LTS and then reluctantly agree to defer it.  They'll owe you then.
<kees> ScottK: heheh
<mdeslaur> ScottK: ehehe
<jdstrand> "all deps of ubuntu-desktop and applications in the server CD"\
<jdstrand> kees: I think it is worthy of a session
 * ScottK will once again opine that confining Postfix is likely more trouble than it's worth.
<kees> okay, cool.
<kees> ScottK: yeah, dovecot is proving painful too
<kees> ' figure out better "screen lock does not work" bug triage process '
<kees> our session from the last UDS on this topic, frankly, failed.
<jdstrand> yeah *sigh*
<kees> we have an ever growing number of reports about screen locking not working in a wide variety of cases
<mdeslaur> kees: we need to get gnome-screensaver maintainers in the session
<kees> we cannot fix them all, much less triage them all.
<kees> mdeslaur: yes
<jdstrand> much less reproduce them
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, true
<jdstrand> at least some seem hardware specific
<kees> yeah
<kees> so, I'd like to focus on getting the right people into that session.  I'm not sure who they are, though.
<jdstrand> though, as an aside, I noticed gnome-screensaver won't look if a virt-viewer window has focus
<mdeslaur> combination of 1- video drivers, 2- gnome-screensaver bugs
<jdstrand> probably gtkvnc related
<jdstrand> s/look/lock/
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: oh? that's interesting
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, I've seen that too.  I'd like to get bug triage involved too, as this sounds like a good candidate for a "DebuggingScreenLocking" or something
<mdeslaur> kees: excellent idea...a session to get a DebuggingScreenLocking wiki page
<mdeslaur> I suspect we can't reproduce some of the issues because people are running alternate window managers
<kees> mdeslaur: oooh, yeah, that's the best way to frame it.  It really is the output we need.
<kees> yeah
<jdstrand> we'd need screensaver devs for gnome, kde and xfce, no?
<kees> yeah
<ScottK> If it's common enough, maybe also a session with the right people in the room for people to bring borked laptops to for diagnosis?
<jdstrand> at list the first two
<nxvl> seb should know who the maintainers are
<kees> ScottK: yeah
<nxvl> so having seb on the session will be of great benefit
<nxvl> or pedro, the Desktop QA guy
<mdeslaur> ScottK: excellent idea
<ScottK> No one from KDE upstream at this UDS, so Riddell is probably your best bet.
<ScottK> (he's going to thank me for that, I'm sure)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<kees> " filesystem capabilities "   uhm, I don't have anything more specific than last UDS, so I'm not sure its worth brining this up again.  Maybe it's just a TODO to get Debian to start doing it for things that can use it immediately/
<mdeslaur> kees: can't we start it first?
<jdstrand> kees: probably-- aiui, foundations we not too excited due to some filesystems
<kees> mdeslaur: sure, though I'd like to get opinions from Debian, since it's kind of an architectural change, requires dpkg support maybe, tar patches, etc
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: kees can just upload into Debian then do a sync request
<jdstrand> kees: how does that work for you?
<jdstrand> :P
<kees> jdstrand: heh
<mdeslaur> hehe
<ScottK> I hear there are going to be a lot of Debian people at UDS.
<jdstrand> ScottK: cool
 * jdstrand was obviously kidding about the upload/sync thingie
<mdeslaur> kees: well, wouldn't wine and dosemu be ideal first candidates for this? can't we put it into postinstall scripts at first?
<mdeslaur> or initscripts
<kees> mdeslaur: no, I don't think they should get CAP_SYS_RAWIO.
<kees> mdeslaur: I'm thinking "ping" is the best
<kees> it's already setuid and already drops privs/caps
<kees> if it gets the CAP_NET_RAW it would work with no code changes
<kees> since the kernel prefers fscaps over setuid bits
<ScottK> Yokozar will be at UDS, so you can certainly talk to him about WINE.
<mdeslaur> kees: well, we'd need a better use case than ping to convince people
<ScottK> Please don't make him too sad as I'm rooming with him and I don't want to have to try to sleep while he's weeping.
<kees> ScottK: yeah, I've been talking to Yokozar at length about the mmap_min_addr stuff.  He's going to the Wine conference, where he's bringing it up.
<nxvl> mdeslaur: you need a safe sandbox to start playing with it anyway
<kees> ScottK: hah
<nxvl> mdeslaur: so first one, being a sandbox, and the second one your demo to convince people
<kees> ScottK: at present, it seems like I'll be creating a debconf question that defaults to safe for wine.  and for dosemu, it's just be safe since they're emulating low memory now.
<kees> ok, doing fscaps as a TODO, chat with Debian, PoC in Ubuntu, etc
<kees> I'll make a blueprint for it, though, since it had some prereqs (tar patch)
<ScottK> kees: You'll want to make sure that the default GUI package managers support answering debconf questions then (the Kubuntu one doesn't, although it's planned and should make Lucid)
<mdeslaur> kees: sounds good
<kees> " forwarding patches to debian BTS for security updates "  we're already doing this, iiuc.  anything more we need for UDS?
<jdstrand> kees: we sort of do this
<mdeslaur> kees: if debian people are there, it would be a good opportunity to ask what we could be doing better
<jdstrand> I think we need to have a policy about how we do it, then state it somewhere
<kees> mdeslaur: true.  how can we find out?
<kees> (the people list, I mean)
<mdeslaur> kees: #debian-security?
<jdstrand> plus it would be a good opportunity to talk with Debian, and generally let people know we want to dtrt
<jdstrand> kees: regardless of what they say in #debian-security, I personally think we should have a session, and if not a session, the 3 of us need to talk about it
<kees> alright, perhaps we can make it a large-scope session "Working with the Ubuntu Security Team" or "how can the security team serve you better?"
<robbiew> fwiw, I know Luk Claes from the debian release team will be there...don't know if anyone from debian-security
<kees> jdstrand: ok
<kees> robbiew: yeah
<mdeslaur> a generic title like that may not attract the relevant debian folk, though
<jdstrand> kees: eg, iirc, some people require a patch go to debian before they sponsor a patch
<kees> "How can the Ubuntu Security Team help Debian (or other folks) better?"
<robbiew> :)
<jdstrand> if we are tying into the regular sponsorship process, then we might get more contributors and maybe more back to debian
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, true
<jdstrand> kees: who are 'the other folks'?
 * jdstrand is slightly confused
<ScottK> You might also consider giving community people upload rights for Universe security stuff.
<nxvl> jdstrand: upstreams?
<kees> jdstrand: Ubuntu community, anyway.  I was just trying to scope the session to "more than just Debian" in case no one from Debian is there/interested.
<jdstrand> ScottK: it's been discussed, and that is the long term goal-- the infrastructure hasn't been there in LP
<kees> ScottK: we're waiting for "real" ACLs in the sourceSync API
<jdstrand> maybe that has changed, I haven't looked at it for some tme
<jdstrand> time
<kees> jdstrand: does that make sense?  (other people == anyone, Ubuntu, upstream, etc)
<jdstrand> kees: I just want to make sure the discussion will be the one we want to have
<ScottK> OK.
<jdstrand> kees: eg, my personal objective for the session is Debian-specific
<jdstrand> kees: the sponsorship session seems ubuntu-community specific
<jdstrand> or, at least, the ubuntu-community bits are part of the sponsorship session
<kees> jdstrand: true, point taken.  ok, we'll have it as Debian-specific, in the hopes that there is Debian folks, and if not, we can just brainstorm.
<jdstrand> kees: but if you want it broader, that is fine be me (I just think we can accomplish a lot even without Debian)
 * kees nods
<kees> " protecting select() users when RLIMIT_NOFILE > 1024 http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10352 "
<ubottu> sourceware.org bug 10352 in libc "no protection against using fd_set with fd>1024" [Normal,Resolved: wontfix]
<mdeslaur> kees: whoever's not attending can at least join in on irc
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: are we doing irc this time around? ;)
<kees> this is ... probably just a todo.  requires a source search and a massive bug-filing campaign.  I will do it via Debian, though it's not a high priority since most services don't run with RLIMIT_NOFILE > 1024.
<mdeslaur> jdong: sorry...I don't get it
<nxvl> mdeslaur: tab completion error?
<kees> any thoughts on this goofy select bug?
<mdeslaur> whoops
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: sorry...I don't get it
<nxvl> kees: so it will mean doing a source check for tons of packages?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: iirc, we didn't have irc input at our last UDS
<ScottK> Yes, we did.
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: perhaps I was the only slacker who didn't pay attention to it
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: oh, your internets were busted :P
<kees> nxvl: yeah, a) generate list of all sources that use select() with a listen()/accept()  b) see if they correctly deal with fd_set being >1024 fds.   c) file bugs
<jdstrand> ScottK: I don't recall it in any of the session I attended (whether I, the security team, or someone else led it)
<jdstrand> but sounds like I may have just been the only slacker
<ScottK> Some sessions used it, some didn't.
<nxvl> kees: yeah, the question is: is there anyway to check if it uses select() without actually looking at the source?
<kees> nxvl: we could look at binaries.  :P
 * nxvl smells nightmare
<mdeslaur> nxvl: magic wand? :
<kees> nxvl: indeed.  :P
<kees> ok, onward
<kees> " using lxc "
<kees> that's LinuX Containers
<nxvl> we can always get the full archive and run grep :P
<mdeslaur> nxvl: we already have a tool that does that
<nxvl> mdeslaur: yeah, that's what i was talking about :D
<kees> nxvl: right, I have tools that can do this already.  it's just that the combo of listen/accept/select is hard to search for
<kees> I have no idea what a session on Linux Containers would look like, but it seriously rocks -- chroot on crack.
<mdeslaur> kees: as in using them for what?
<kees> (without kernel patches)
<nxvl> kees: well, searching only select, build a list, then reduce the scope of the search to just those will be really helpfull
<kees> mdeslaur: yeah, brain storming, I guess.
<kees> not really sure.
<kees> nxvl: true, yeah
<kees> but if there are no idea, we need to skip it.  :)
<jdstrand> kees: I want to type something in response to 'using lxc', but don't know what
<kees> jdstrand: heh, yeah, me either.  :P
<jdstrand> well, I'll toss this out: libvirt has lxc support
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> that's all I have :)
<mdeslaur> NEXT!
<kees> " process limit unlimited (LP: #391761) "
<jdstrand> kees: were you thinking of investigating lxc and perhaps documenting it somewhere?
<kees> I think this might just be another TODO for me to poke foundations (specifically slangasek) about.  I was suggesting some ideas to slangasek about this recently
<ScottK> In other news, I noticed today that it's been over half a year since the last clamav -security upload.  Who would have thought such a thing was possible?
<kees> jdstrand: maybe, there's already plenty of docs on using it, though.  I was thinking about using it with schroot/sbuild (gains network isolation trivially)
<jdstrand> ScottK: totally! I sure didn't :)
<kees> ScottK: hah! whoa
<ScottK> We ought to (at some point, not at UDS) discuss the timing for replacing clamav 0.94 in Dapper/Hardy/Intrepid.
<kees> ScottK: will you be at UDS?
<jdstrand> yeah, we did a little the other day
<ScottK> Yes
<mdeslaur> ScottK: excellent idea
<kees> why not discuss at UDS?
<ScottK> No reason not to.
<ScottK> Just UDS tends to be busy and that doesn't really NEED a session.
<jdstrand> it certainly wouldn't require a session, afaict
<kees> ok, cool.
<kees> " readdir_r stack smashing (LP: #392501) "
<nxvl> with the previus experience, security "track" should have half-hour sessions
<nxvl> :P
<kees> this is... odd and needs investigation, not really a session.  TODO!
<mdeslaur> kees: whoa, that again :)
 * nxvl is confused
<kees> mdeslaur: yeah, still not solved.  I suspect alignment fun in the kernel.... *pokes out own eyes*
<nxvl> kees: are you talking about clamav or the proces limit thing?
<kees> nxvl: talking about 19:00 < kees> " readdir_r stack smashing (LP: #392501) "
<nxvl> ohh
<mdeslaur> nxvl: the readdir_r thing
<nxvl> i missed that one
<nxvl> thnx
<mdeslaur> kees: we should try it on karmic
<mdeslaur> maybe it got magically fixed :)
<kees> mdeslaur: that's be cool.
<kees> " upstream NX-emu patch http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/junk/linus-es.txt "
<kees> this is a TODO.  a laughable todo, as I don't think I will be even remotely successful, but I want to try.
<mdeslaur> kees: good luck
 * kees looks at his list for something that is NOT a todo...
<nxvl> kees: hope is the last thing to lose
<nxvl> :P
<kees> nxvl: heh
 * nxvl notices that it makes more sense in spanish
<jdstrand> kees: did you skip the -Wl,-z,now stuff purposefully?
<kees> ah, yes.  " grub2 + TPM "
<kees> jdstrand: I did, they're todo items
<jdstrand> k
<kees> jdstrand: and now I just skipped a bunch more that I think are all TODO
<kees> getting the TPM patches into grub might be interesting
<mdeslaur> grub2+TPM?
<kees> it could be used for people looking for an end-to-end secure system using the bios TPM bits.
<kees> right now it's not possible because it requires out-of-tree grub changes.
<kees> I look at this like SELinux -- it should be possible for people to do it, but it's not an Ubuntu default.
<mdeslaur> and the TPM patch kills some grub functionality to fit
<kees> eek!
<kees> that I didn't know about
<mdeslaur> yeah, it removes something...LBA support...or something
<kees> well, perhaps a grub-tpm package or something
<mdeslaur> would be interesting
<kees> should this get a session, or is this more a "just work on it" kind of thing?
<jdstrand> todo
<kees> ok
<kees> " http://people.canonical.com/~kees/nx-missing into pkg on server & desktop that has translations, preferably tied to x86/x86_64 arch. "
<jdstrand> I'm not sure what else there is to discuss. there's a patch, it might break something. if it does, a different package, if it doesn't, a config option
<kees> jdstrand: yeah
<jdstrand> re grub2/tpm)
<kees> so, http://people.canonical.com/~kees/nx-missing needs to actually call http://people.canonical.com/~kees/check-bios-nx as the latter is much more accurate
<mdeslaur> kees: discuss where and how to display that warning?
<jdstrand> kees: that nx-issing needs DX, now?
<jdstrand> no?
<kees> mdeslaur: basically, yes.  needs DX, and somewhere to live.  I draw a blank every time I try to pick a package to put it in.
 * mdeslaur votes for gnome-games
<kees> hah
 * jdstrand votes for openoffice.org
<mdeslaur> kees: sure, a session sounds good
<jdstrand> it'll make it easy to test then
<kees> and " should /proc/kallsyms and /boot/System.map be root-only "
<kees> jdstrand: yeah
<kees> so, this file is a map of kernel symbols.
<kees> it can be used for kerneloops debugging
<kees> and for loading kernel rootkits.  ;)
<kees> that said, an attacker can just build the Ubuntu kernel to get these offsets.
<jdstrand> yeah
<kees> or log into their own system as root to get them for any release.
<kees> I think it's not worth it.  neither TODO nor session.
<mdeslaur> kees: right...
<jdstrand> I don't see it particularly useful except where someone is using a non-default kernel
<mdeslaur> although...automated worms could be cross-distro if they could read that...
<kees> perhaps I can send a patch to the kernel and see it get NAKd, and then I'll be done with that item.  :P
<jdstrand> heh
<kees> mdeslaur: they could be cross-distro by carrying a matrix of version/symbol too.
<kees> less future-proofed though
<jdstrand> there are ways around that
<mdeslaur> makes it harder, but yeah
<kees> " Ubuntu and Debian security collaboration " -> "How can the Ubuntu Security Team help Debian better?"   yes?
<jdstrand> actually, you should refresh the page again now
<nxvl> well, at least you will be safe of dangerous script-kiddies that don't know what they are doing and can destroy your system :P
<mdeslaur> sounds good to me
<nxvl> +1
<jdstrand> kees: I removed it cause I didn't see you line item
<jdstrand> kees: so, yes
 * kees reloads ah-ha
<nxvl> jdstrand: what's the page? the roadmap?
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UDS
<mdeslaur> nxvl: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UDS
<kees> " apparmor abstractions cleanup "
<jdstrand> I think it needs a session
<nxvl> ah-ha
<kees> this is a fun one.  I think it's session-worthy
<nxvl> mdeslaur: thnx
<mdeslaur> yep, I think it's session worthy also
<kees> " apparmor usability "
<jdstrand> we could talk conceptually about what we'd like to see, then go through profiles and see what could be better
<kees> would this be a review of all the userspace tools, or a more general discussion?
<jdstrand> there is a lot there, it needs a session
<kees> ah, very wide.  excellent.
<jdstrand> well, tunables on upgrades is a big one I want to solve for UDS
<mdeslaur> yeah, I like it
<kees> oooh
<kees> " sort out apparmor upstream vs apparmor in ubuntu "
<jdstrand> but there are other things like this applet I've heard about that could be discussed
<jdstrand> kees: too fast!
<jdstrand> :)
<kees> jdstrand: sorry!  seemed like we agreed on the session.
<jdstrand> also maybe thinking about how to report denials
<jdstrand> ah
<jdstrand> ok then
<jdstrand> next!
<jdstrand> sort out apparmor upstream vs apparmor in ubuntu
<kees> jdstrand: actually, let's pass the baton... we should each drive our own lists...
<jdstrand> thanks
<kees> I think this is a TODO, we just need to merge back some changes.
<jdstrand> so, this may not be session worthy-- but we should at least sit down and define how we want development to proceed
<nxvl> unless there are apparmor upstreams at UDS, which i doubt
<jdstrand> kees: well, I started that work already
<jdstrand> nxvl: dude, there will be at least 5 upstreams
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, I saw that
<jdstrand> jj, sbeattie, kees, mdeslaur and myself :)
<nxvl> jdstrand: well..
<kees> jdstrand: let's have an "AppArmor upstream planning session" ?
<jdstrand> kees: but I was more thinking about making sure we all follow how to work on it
<jdstrand> kees: I like that
<jdstrand> kees: it's broad and we can talk about whatever
<jdstrand> kees: we may need/want a few of those
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> but maybe just schedule one then try to fit in others as we go?
<nxvl> jdstrand: i was thinking about non-ubuntu people
<jdstrand> nxvl: sure, but we have a lot of devs in one place, we need to take advantage of that
<jdstrand> ok
<jdstrand> ufw
<nxvl> agreed
<jdstrand> usability is all TODO
<jdstrand> so is upstart stuff
<jdstrand> I did want to talk to the server team about what they might want to see
<jdstrand> I'm not sure that is session worthy though
<jdstrand> I'm rooming with the virt lead, so will probably have this discussion out of band
<jdstrand> regarding features-- I know what people want, I just need to do it
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> kees: are we planning on a catchall session like the last couple of UDSs?
<kees> jdstrand: we should, yeah
<kees> jdstrand: do you want to make a blueprint for ufw features, just for tracking?
<jdstrand> we could just have it as a line item
<jdstrand> kees: maybe-- need to think about it
<kees> okay
<jdstrand> "libvirt/apparmor features, polishing and maintenance "
<jdstrand> while 9.10 is working quite well, there is stilla  surprising amount of work to be done
<jdstrand> upstream libvirt is very active
<jdstrand> almost all of this is TODO
<kees> will libvirt folks be at UDS?
<jdstrand> run qemu:///system VMs as non-root is now supported as of 0.7.0 (ie karmic)
<jdstrand> kees: I don't know
<jdstrand> however, I don't think we should diverge from Debian on qemu:///system
<jdstrand> plus, since we have AA confinement, they are likely more interested in qemu:///system as non-root, so we can hopefully get it for free
<kees> yeah, true
<jdstrand> the rest are TODO
<jdstrand> I'm not sure I can drive qemu:///system as non-root this cycle
<jdstrand> (either)
<jdstrand> that seems a big undertaking...
<kees> yeah, no worries.  I'd kind of like us to focus on bug-fixes/LTSification this cycle more than features
<kees> yeah
<jdstrand> anyway, mdeslaur-- you're next
<jdstrand> kees: totally
<mdeslaur> I'd like to have a session on smartcard/hardware token two-factor authentication
<kees> can we bring hardware for that?
<jdstrand> kees: which I think the items I added reflect that (that was my intent anyway)
<kees> jdstrand: absolutely
<mdeslaur> ie: what the current status is, what people would like to see, what needs work, enterprise demand, etc.
<kees> mdeslaur: I think it's worth it -- fingerprint reader I think should be included too
<kees> mdeslaur: RFID, smartcard, USB dongle, fingerprint reader, etc
<jdstrand> while I agree in spririt, I'm far less excited about the fingerprint reader :P
<nxvl> mdeslaur: AFAIK kirkland had that working on california
<mdeslaur> although it would be more a "discovery" and scope defining session, as I'm not up-to-speed on what we support right now
<kees> mdeslaur: yeah, same for me.  I'm not sure who can help us there, perhaps soren?
<jdstrand> I'd love a way to turn a regular ol' us key into a token for two-factor auth
<nxvl> mdeslaur: i remember him talking about having his encrypted LVM key in an external storage
<jdstrand> kees: soren probably would be very good for that
<mdeslaur> maybe the pre-sales guys can talk about customer demand also
<jdstrand> /us/usb/
 * kees ponders USB stick with eCryptfs that has the mount passphrase for an LV  and then falls over crying
<jdstrand> hehe
<kees> mdeslaur: who does this 2-factor session differ from the Cert-on-USB auth idea?
<kees> s/who/how/
<mdeslaur> kees: it doesn't. the cert-on-usb stick is just an alternative to explore.
<kees> ok, cool.
<mdeslaur> that's all I have...the other topics I wanted were already in your lists
<nxvl> so one session for your 2 items will be enough?
<mdeslaur> yes
<mdeslaur> the cert on a usb stick is more of a todo/proof of concept
<jdstrand> I think a usb-token-creator app would be awesome
<mdeslaur> (or shooting it down...)
<jdstrand> something akin to the usb creator for isos
<jdstrand> anyhoo
<jdstrand> is there anything else?
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UDS has what I collected in rough notes as session
<kees> s
<kees> if that list looks good, we should claim/assign sessions
<nxvl> oh
<jdstrand> kees: should we do that here or somewhere else?
<nxvl> kees: and ask for security tags so we don't need to biuld them again
<nxvl> :P
<kees> nxvl: what?
<jdstrand> kees: for the name tags
<mdeslaur> security badge ribbons
<nxvl> kees: those tags for the badges
<kees> nxvl, jdstrand: oh! haha
<mdeslaur> so you guys don't need to do arts and crafts
<jdstrand> that's a jono thing iirc
<mdeslaur> jono: nxvl wants security badge ribbons
<nxvl> last time rick was blamed
<nxvl> so i suspect this time robbiew will be
<kees> nxvl: email to clan sent.
<jono> nxvl, we are not doing ribbons this time
<nxvl> \o/
<jono> :)
<nxvl> that would do it
<kees> jono: ah-ha, easy fix.
<mdeslaur> jono: are we doing donuts instead? :)
 * mdeslaur likes donuts
<jdstrand> kees: you dropped lxc off the list? I was already looking forward to your demo :P
<jono> mdeslaur, lol
<kees> jdstrand: oh, er, it wasn't clear what we'd accomplish
<kees> (with a session)
 * jdstrand was kidding
<kees> oh! *whew*
<nxvl> yeah, i hope we have lot's of sugar and cokes to survive trough the week
<nxvl> :P
<jdstrand> :)
<kees> any reason not to claim/assign sessions now?  that way we'll be totally done with this stage of planning
<jono> kees, are you talking about scheduling sessions at UDS?
<jdstrand> I guess not-- though there are also blueprints that need to be discussed
<kees> jono: basically, yes.  we were reviewing ideas that we could make sessions out of.
<nxvl> mmmm
 * nxvl missed the catch-all session
<nxvl> kees: what's that one about?
<kees> I can take LowerProcessCapabilities, Notification of system BIOS failures, Catch-all, and screen lock does not work ?
<nxvl> it smells like chat & e-mail :P
<jono> kees, cool - when you are done and have registered the blueprints, let me know and I will approve them
<kees> nxvl: it's about anything in general.  random idea, anything people want to see, etc
<jono> kees, and then Robbie can schedule them for you on the foundations track
<nxvl> ohh
<jdstrand> I can take apparmor abstractions cleanup and apparmor usability in Ubuntu
<nxvl> yeah, my nose was right :P
<kees> jono: ok, excellent
 * jdstrand feels like he is missing something
<jiohdi> anyone here from the recent florida birthday bash?
<nxvl> btw, i think a couple of general "Roundtable" sessions will be a good idea
<jdstrand> jiohdi: we are in a meeting right now
<jdstrand> ubuntu-security
<nxvl> jiohdi: try #ubuntu-fl
<jiohdi> thanks
<RoAkSoAx> jiohdi, #ubuntu-us-fl
<kees> nxvl: hrm, normally we can't fill the roundtable meetings.  :P  the catch-all tends to serve that purpose
<nxvl> that reminds me
<nxvl> i haven't had lunch still
<nxvl> so, meeting adjourned?
<nxvl> (or however it's spelled)
<kees> aaah 3rd person!
<kees> yeah, meeting done, thanks everyone!
<zul> mmmm....timbits
<Pretto> emma:  :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-10
<emma> Pretto: :P
<Pretto> :>
 * persia peers about
<czajkowski> pleia2: very quiet...
<persia> czajkowski: I'm expecting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania to start soonish
<czajkowski> persia: I gathered that
<czajkowski> usually they're here before ye guys asking when does it start.
<persia> Indeed :)
<persia> Well, I don't think we'll have the meeting.  10 minutes in and the candidate isn't present (and hasn't been), and no quorum.
<persia> (or maybe we'd have quorum if people were poked, but no point without a candidate)
<czajkowski> heh
<lifeless> persia: hi, was sprinting, so tz fail.
<lifeless> but it looks like it didnt matter anyhoo
<persia> lifeless: Didn't matter at all, as it turns out.
<lifeless> :)
 * GrueMaster adjusts toothpicks in eyelids for better reading.
<dyfet> *yawn*
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> morning all
<JamieBennett> morning :)
 * NCommander pokes dyfet davidm persia ogra GrueMaster 
<GrueMaster> I'm already here.
<dyfet> pokes back
 * NCommander also pokes StevenK 
 * ogra falls over
<davidm> Hello NCommander
<NCommander> morning davidm
 * asac waves
<NCommander> hey asac
<JamieBennett> hey asX
<JamieBennett> lol
<JamieBennett> damn keyboard
<JamieBennett> hey asac
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091110
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091110
<asac> hope you don't mind if i lurk to touch base this meeting ;)
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
 * NCommander waits another minute for everyone to appear before starting
<JamieBennett> NCommander: The first spec (yours) has a dead link
<dyfet> fail
 * NCommander forgot to fix its URL when I renamed the specs ...
<JamieBennett> mobile-lucid-arm-alternate-images
<NCommander> Fixed
 * NCommander notes for the firs ttime since I attended this meeting, there are NO action items
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: properly support alternate images in addition to live (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: properly support alternate images in addition to live (NCommander)
<NCommander> Registered in Launchpad, and I wrote out a basic spec for it outlying the basic jest of it for quick completion during UDS
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: 2D launcher for UNR (JamieBennett)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: 2D launcher for UNR (JamieBennett)
<ogra_> grr
 * ogra_ wonders how his reconnct moved to that inconvenient time :/
<JamieBennett> Mostly done apart from action items
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: Device Tree support (JamieBennett)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Device Tree support (JamieBennett)
<JamieBennett> This is half done, finishing it today.
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: lightweight webkit based browser (dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: lightweight webkit based browser (dyfet)
<dyfet> This might be a firefight at UDS :)
<NCommander> dyfet, I'll bring my bunker gear
 * ogra is testing midori since a week ... 
<asac> what alternatives are currently tested for browser?
 * NCommander has been using Chrome
<ogra> could someone pick up epiphany
<asac> anyone tried to build the latest chromium dailies?
<NCommander> ogra, epiphany-webkit, or epiphany-gecko
<dyfet> I have looked at chrome.  I added to the spec what I think are the requirements for something to be selected
<asac> epiphany-webkit is the only thing that exist in karmic
<dyfet> True
<plars> I can look at epiphany
<NCommander> asac, chromimium for ARM might be a good idea, if someone is willing to sacrifice a goat to compile it.
<asac> its a bit immature with rough edges, but i think that would be sorted in lucid timeframe
<dyfet> I agree it is a possibility
<asac> NCommander: you have a native ppa, right? can you try to just copy the latest dailies there?
<ogra> NCommander, doesnt matter ... for now we should simply get an impression on the usability issues of $browser vs firefox
<NCommander> asac, won't work, the build system I believe requires cross-compilation due to a dependency on ia32-libs
<asac> NCommander: afaik we fixed that
<asac> i remember that we had that spinning in some ppa
<NCommander> asac, someone should update the wiki ;-). Poke me after the meeting, and I'll be glad to kick it into my PPA
<asac> right ... will do
<NCommander> [action] ogra to report back on midori usability
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to report back on midori usability
<ogra> in any case each of us should test one of the available briowsers for a few days
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to report back on Chromium Browser's usability
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to report back on Chromium Browser's usability
<ogra> to see the difference in handling etc
<NCommander> [action] dyfet to report back on epiphany-webkit's usability
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dyfet to report back on epiphany-webkit's usability
<NCommander> Anyone else want anything?
<plars> do we have others?
<ogra> (not on arm yet, just to see how they work differently, so we can bring impressions to the discussion)
<NCommander> plars, Internet Explorer in WINE
 * NCommander runs
<ogra> NCommander, that will only work if we have wubi for ARM :P
<plars> ok, serious options?
<ogra> dunno, dont we have a virtual package you can search for ?
<NCommander> plars, Konquerer is KHTML based
 * ogra tries x-www-browser
<NCommander> probably worth looking at
<ogra> not really as an alternative across all images though
<plars> I can look at it, but probably overkill if we are not using the kde libs for anything else
<NCommander> Or Fennec, which is what Maemo 5 uses
<ogra> nope
<NCommander> ogra, I just bring it up as a possibility due to the fact its a different rendering engine
<ogra> they use firefox with nokia hacks in maemo5
<ogra> no fennec
<ogra> and fennect is unusably slow on my n900
<NCommander> Oh, then I'm out of date
<ogra> the maemo browser is cool though
<ogra> i really like it
<asac> for fennec: i think we would need to do an up-to-date fennec to tell whats right or wrong ... the archive version is outdated, because everything newer needs not released xulrunner
<ogra> would be worth getting it into the archive imho ... but i'm nopt sure all nokia patches are  public
<NCommander> asac, I think for this, we could accept hand-compiled packages
<NCommander> asac, for purposes of evaluation
<asac> yeah. should be possible to get fennec up somewhere
<ogra> well, i tested the very latest fennec on the n900 when i got it ... which is about 4 weeks ago
<ogra> and it was compiled optimized for the platform already ... still to slow though
<asac> hmm... ok
<NCommander> The problem is gecko is a bit of a memory hog
<ogra> but we should indeed test it on *our* arches
<ogra> n900 is nothing we actually care for officially ...
<ogra> so is someone eager to try fennec for a few days ?
<NCommander> asac, would you like the action item to test fennec?
<asac> right. i think we should at least check it .... also i can ask someone who i think still works for nokia on heir browser
<asac> NCommander: i have no hardware ;) ... i can take action to check how to build the latest and make a package if thats feasible
<ogra> getting their maemo browser in would rock for handheld devices ...
<ogra> i'm not sure it provides anything we could benefit from on the desktop though
<NCommander> ogra, I'd like to know how they got Gecko to run so smoothly
<ogra> asac, usability testing to give a rundown during the BoF is the most intresting part atm
<ogra> i dont think you need to test on armel right now
<ogra> (and indeed we should get you HW ASAP)
<ogra> davidm, ^^^
<asac> ok. i can do that
<davidm> NCommander, they separated rendering from display
<ogra> right
<asac> i can also take action to talk to the nokia guy i think would know what they did to gecko ... but unlikely to test the maemo browser myself before UDS
<NCommander> Interesting
<NCommander> [action] asac to test fennec and report back
<ogra> they render the whole site in advance in ram and then have a panning window for the offscreen site
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to test fennec and report back
<NCommander> [action] asac to talk to Nokia on their optimizations to gecko
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to talk to Nokia on their optimizations to gecko
<ogra> move on ?
<NCommander> anything else on this spec?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements (ogra)
<ogra> meh
<ogra> ugly one ...
<ogra> i'll felsh it out more but there isnt much i can add yet before i get something from the vendors
<ogra> *flesh
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing (ogra/GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing (ogra/GrueMaster)
<ogra> i hope we have enough of them in place at UDS for input
 * GrueMaster follows ogra's lead.
<ogra> same thing ... we dont have armel HW with batteries at all yet
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2 (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2 (ogra)
<ogra> so resume from suspend might be tricky to test at all
<ogra> hibernate will definately work
<ogra> NCommander, that one should be removed
<GrueMaster> ogra: we don't need batteries for sleep/hibernation testing.
<ogra> its was moved to doko_ already and i think its already implemented
<NCommander> ogra, wooo, first spec implemented!
<ogra> GrueMaster, we need support for the power button to wake up the thing
<GrueMaster> yes, but that shouldn't have any thing to do with battery or not.
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Softbootloader (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Softbootloader (NCommander)
 * NCommander coughs
<GrueMaster> As long as it shows up as an acpi event.
<ogra> GrueMaster, hibernate should theoretically work though (since that resumes from a normal bootprocess) suspend needs additional kernel side support
<NCommander> GrueMaster, this is ARM, no ACPI
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> What little power management we have is APM based I believe
<persia> There's APM, which tends to work
<ogra> call it "PM" event :)
<ogra> persia, good to see you back btw :)
<GrueMaster> ok, still learning the arm stuff.
<ogra> ACPI is BIOS based ... no BIOS on arm
<NCommander> GrueMaster, ACPI braindamage was fortunately x86/amd64 specific
<ogra> NCommander, so what about softbootloader ?
<NCommander> The spec and blueprint have been recycled
<ogra> any solution in sight ?
<NCommander> But we still don't have kexec() on ARMv7 so ...
<NCommander> This spec probably will end up deferred again until theres some change on that end
<ogra> i thought it only breaks on imx51
<ogra> but works on dove
<NCommander> ogra, if it works on Dove, thats news to me.
<ogra> i thought you said that during karmic
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to investigate kexec() on ARM
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to investigate kexec() on ARM
<NCommander> ogra, based on the mailing list traffic, kexec is completely broken on armv7 SoCs.
<ogra> well, we should test it in lucid at least
<NCommander> [topic] UMR: Moblin Remix Reloaded (persia)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UMR: Moblin Remix Reloaded (persia)
<ogra> can you prepare some testing mechanism we could use to check if its working or not ?
<ogra> that could be part of the spec for lucid
<NCommander> ogra, I'm not even sure if the spec is actually needed if UEFI on ARM pops into being.
<ogra> i doubt many people on the ML have the HW we look at
<ogra> UEFIU on ARM needs vendor support
<ogra> *UEFI
<davidm> UEFI is not expected in this cycle
<persia> That's mostly a discussion item: there's a lot of stuff that still doesn't fit in the archive, and needs to have a sufficiency of interested parties.
<ogra> thats as utopic as hoping for a standardized uboot across all vendors :)
<davidm> UEFI might make it in the next cycle or the one after that, but not expected now.
<asac> ok, so the UEFI spec can be defferred and removed from the list? or do we still want to investigate proactively this cycle?
<ogra> well, would be good to have a small overview of what it is and how we can benefit from it
<davidm> I personally think we can remove it for this cycle and just talk to ARM about it since they are trying to drive it.
<ogra> but beyond that i dont expect that we implement anything
 * ogra wouldnt mind an informational spec 
<asac> ok. so make a low prio informational spec out of it ... or defer?
<NCommander> asac, the later I think
<ogra> asac, up to you :) make a decision ;)
<NCommander> We should maybe also have a spec on implementing a generic second stage bootloader (ala elilo), if UEFI isn't going to pop into existance for six months to a year ...
<asac> ok. lets defer that spec then
<davidm> Works, we can talk to Dave from ARM over beers :-)
<ogra> NCommander, i doubt that helps us much more than softbootloader
<asac> good idea ;)
<ogra> ++
<NCommander> beer++
<NCommander> [topic] Establish test procedures and documentation for new hardware (plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Establish test procedures and documentation for new hardware (plars)
<plars> This is basically initial testing of what works/doesn't for new boards, and documentation of whether each things works, any workarounds required, etc.
<plars> Mostly this would be targetted at new ARM devices where hardware is often in limited supply at first, but no reason why it couldn't be applied to other devices such as netbooks.
<NCommander> plars, we might want ot extend it to include having new SoCs in the Ubuntu installation manual ...
<ogra> NCommander, any reason you skipped persia and StevenK ?
<NCommander> ogra, I skipped over StevenK cause he's not here. I didn't skip over persia
<JamieBennett> UMR: Moblin Remix ReloadedÂ (persia)-space"
<ogra> right
<JamieBennett> (apart from the junk on the end of the line)
<ogra> :)
<NCommander> plars, so anything else on this one?
<plars> not unless somone has questions, feedback, etc
<NCommander> [topic] move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools (ogra)
<ogra> needs felshing out ... but i have a detailed plan
<ogra> *fleshing
<NCommander> A plan is good
<ogra> :)
<NCommander> [topic] clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove (NCommander)
<NCommander> This is depwait partially on ogra's spec, but I want to rip out the partitioning code from the backends and create a generic create-partition-map script
<NCommander> Or at least, have some sorta partitioning library
<ogra> its also related to the ext2/3 spec
<NCommander> yeah
<NCommander> and in addition, if we add anymore arm+uboot SoCs, the backend's code duplication problem going to simply grow
<ogra> same for other bootloaders
<ogra> i dont think thats a uboot specific issue
<NCommander> I'll probably do some work on straighting this code out before UDS, get the low hanging fruit so the speak.
<NCommander> [topic] stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely) (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely) (ogra)
<ogra> yeah !
<ogra> my favorite one :)
 * NCommander notes that if this spec gets implemented, I will love ogra long time
<ogra> needs fleshing out (as all my specs)
<ogra> and is not easy to explain in words ...
<ogra> and as well is somewhat half in the foundations team realm
<NCommander> ogra, I'm vaguely reminded of the bundles discussion at UDS jaunty
<NCommander> [topic] HDD based Recovery Images (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  HDD based Recovery Images (NCommander)
<NCommander> I spoke to davidm on this one. I'm going to kick it into foundations team realm, as its really theres, and not ours
<asac> right ... just wanted to ask. sounds like something the whole platform would benefit from
<ogra> yeah
<JamieBennett> indeed
<NCommander> [topic] extX images versus vfat (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  extX images versus vfat (NCommander)
<ogra> you truncated the title on the wikipage
<JamieBennett> ogra: refresh
<NCommander> ogra, I fixed it
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> This spec is multi-aspected, and part of it overlaps into the foundation team (specifically usb-creator, do we want to have that also move to extX images)
<ogra> not really
<NCommander> I had a thought we could do what we do for UNR, and make ARM ISO images for SoCs with sane partitioning layouts
<ogra> eeek !
<NCommander> ;-)
<ogra> please no isos on armel
<ogra> its hard enough to install them
<NCommander> The big issue with implementation is that we need a non-root replacement for mtools
<ogra> so lets not add another complex hurdle
<ogra> right
<NCommander> And I'm not even sure what options we have
<ogra> nbd can mount images in userspace
<NCommander> ogra, nbd?
<ogra> and there are surely also fuse based solutions
<ogra> yep
<ogra> you can loop mount images as nbd images
<NCommander> ogra, right, but whatever we need has to be in hardy (or backported), and then blessed by Canonical IS
<ogra> well nbd surely works for that ... for fuse we probably need something backported
<NCommander> ogra, the other headache is that we need ext2 images for Dove, but probably imx51 would want ext3/4, so we need to handle multi-filesystem support
<NCommander> (woo, fun!)
<ogra> (note that nbd is not sexy but can provide a solution here)
<ogra> we surely dont want ext2 at all
<NCommander> ogra, I plan to poke Marvell on seeing if we can figure out why u-boot won't read form an ext3 partition at all
<ogra> else you end with corrupted filesystems if you just kill your live session
<NCommander> *from
<ogra> you only need ext2 for /boot, dont you ?
<ogra> the spec is for the live image partition
<NCommander> ogra, *shiver*, I was trying to avoid multi-partitoin images for Dove
<NCommander> But obviously that pipe dream just died.
<ogra> its about that darn ppp package issue actually
<dyfet> ah
<ogra> we wont need to switch to ext* if we can fix that one on vfat :)
<asac> if its just the long version string of ppp i could see if i can upload that with a more compressed version ;)
<NCommander> ogra, there are other reasons we may want ext*
<ogra> NCommander, sure, but thats the main one
<asac> whats the problem in particular with ppp?
<NCommander> ogra, specifically, hardlinks being one cited both myself for lool
<ogra> along with the ability for symlinks
<NCommander> asac, filename gets truncated by mtools
<ogra> well, it's not clear to me its mtools
<persia> The hardlink/symlink thing is usually worked around by using a union filesystem from some image-within-the-image
<ogra> might be parted and the fs we actually create with it
<NCommander> persia, ew
<NCommander> Alternate images also loose any symlinks that they might had
<ogra> it definately needs a lot of research
<persia> I thought alternate images were designed to not need symlinks or hardlinks.
<NCommander> I think we need an action item, although I'm not sure what it was
<ogra> it might even be that its an issue that only shows with the hardy tools
<ogra> NCommander, [action] find the cause for ppp packagename truncation
<NCommander> [action] ogra to find cause for ppp packagename truncation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to find cause for ppp packagename truncation
<NCommander> :-)
<ogra> should be the first forcus for that spec
<ogra> huh ?
<ogra> your spec, not mine :P
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to find cause for ppp packagename truncation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to find cause for ppp packagename truncation
<ogra> just giving you a hand :)
<NCommander> Anyway
<NCommander> [topic] rootstock gui (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  rootstock gui (ogra)
<ogra> integrate rootstock with either ubiquity or oem-config
<ogra> needs fleshing out
<NCommander> [topic] LSB Compliance testing (gruemaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  LSB Compliance testing (gruemaster)
<ogra> (part of it is also covered in the "multiarch execution environment with qemu static' spec)
<NCommander> I think we can kill this one
<GrueMaster> It's up there.
<ogra> yeah, not much point for it without moblin
<GrueMaster> Not necessarily.
<NCommander> I'll knock it down to wishlist
<GrueMaster> LSB != moblin.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, do we care without moblin?
<ogra> moblin = customer for LSB testing though
<davidm> We don't care much I think
<GrueMaster> This is for LSB Compliance, not Moblin compliance.  This is tested on desktop.
<asac> is that LSB compliance really a mobile spec?
<NCommander> asac, it was for the karmic cycle
<davidm> We should ask rickspenser or robbie if they care
<plars> Should we check with foundations first to see if it's something they need?
<persia> Rather than argue about whether anyone cares, let it be "low priority", which means that if anyone cares, they can do it.
 * NCommander already kicked it down to wishlist
<NCommander> [topic] UNE(UNR) Social Networking Applets (gruemaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNE(UNR) Social Networking Applets (gruemaster)
<GrueMaster> I wanted to bring this up at UDS.  Currently, UNR is the only netbook image w/o social networking software (twitter, facebook, etc).
<persia> Are you thinking something like libbickley integration, or just clients?
<asac> what do other netbook images ship for that?
<GrueMaster> Kubuntu netbook.  And other distros have similar things.
<dyfet> some I see do so by redefining the desktop environment
<NCommander> asac, whatever Kubuntu netbook ships, we probably odn't want it for UNR
<asac> we have https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-default-apps and https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-social-from-the-start
<JamieBennett> The n900 uses the new Microfeed framework, maybe something to look at?
<ogra> JamieBennett, on maemo5 or 6 ?
<JamieBennett> maemo5 (http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microfeed_could_be_to_status_updates_what_telepathy_is_to_instant_messaging/)
<GrueMaster> Biggest issue I see is that UNR/UNE doesn't have the framework in place for this.
<ogra> we have notify-osd though
<ogra> probably you can merge parts of both
<asac> i think desktop will built on top of gwibber
<asac> which has a dbus daemon ... and a UI ...
<GrueMaster> notify-osd is a popup message displayer.
<ogra> right, add a microfeed backend
<asac> ogra: thats gwibber-daemon most likely ... we could just reuse what desktop does there and see if we need more special UIs
<ogra> yeah
<GrueMaster> ogra: I was thinking of something more integrated into the UI.  Like Moblin and Kubuntu netbook have.
<dyfet> Well, unr is much more application-centric
<ogra> you think notify-osd isnt integrated enough in the UI ?
<asac> ogra: notify-osd just displays the notifications ;)
<JamieBennett> :)
<asac> but the social from start spec from desktop team has the following points:
<ogra> yeah, but thats the UI side
<asac> 1. Microblogging from Session menu
<asac> 2. Converge social networking accounts into "About Me", make accessible from places like Session Menu
<GrueMaster> No, it isn't.  Not or some of the other widgits I see on other systems.
<ogra> or am i missing any other UI elements but messages
<ogra> ah
<JamieBennett> We need someway of getting the messages in too - http://microfeed.org/ has a pretty diagram.
<NCommander> Not to cut you off, but these are implementation detials for UDS, and we're over time.
<ogra> sounds a bit like  overlap between mobile and DX imho
<NCommander> Anything quick before I go onto the next spec?
<NCommander> [topic] lpia versus i386 (NCommander)
<plars> we are over time, are we overlapping with another meeting right now?
<MootBot> New Topic:  lpia versus i386 (NCommander)
<NCommander> plars, not according to the calendar
<NCommander> This is pretty much our plan for the lpia port. Do we finally ax it or what not
<NCommander> [topic] Efficient testing of install images (plars)
<GrueMaster> Is there any benefit to the lpia compiler differences?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Efficient testing of install images (plars)
<plars> This is to have a good set of tests to get good coverage of install-time options, with out having an explosion in the number of test cases
<NCommander> GrueMaster, what compiler differences? (we compile for i686 versus i586)
<persia> Has anything changed since last time for lpia?  Is there new information that it certainly will or won't be different at an instruction set level?
<NCommander> [topic] UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)
<davidm> We kept the lpia alive due to potential Intel chips that might benefit from it.  None have come out so I'm thinking we drop lpia, but I'll double check that
<persia> MIssed that one.  I'll get something together for next week :)
<asac> how much resources does the lpia port consume?
<davidm> Is this a UDS topic or just better having a conversation with Neil?
<ogra> asac, if we actively maintain it its a lot
<NCommander> asac, its in maintenance mode right now, and fairly broken
<ogra> asac, if its just idling around without anyone looking (like in karmic) not much
<NCommander> It would be a ton of effort to even bring it back up to installable
<asac> ok. but with dropping we mean: make it an unsupported arch (e.g. keep the whole infrastructure in place in case we need it still)=
<persia> Although it's probably worth asking the launchpad crew to turn it off for PPAs.
<davidm> asac, we don't actively maintain lpia at all
<ogra> asac, i think we mean wipe it completely from everywhere ... including our minds and bad dreams
 * NCommander would approve of that action
 * ogra would be specifically intrested in the latter :)
<asac> hmm ... for me it feels like we shouldnt completely wipe it unless we are really sure we won't need it anymore
<plars> I think that's pretty much where we were at last cycle
<NCommander> asac, my opinion hasn't changed since last time, but if we do need lpia due to an incompatibility of i386, then we still have to rebootstrap it and everything
<GrueMaster> which is wat davidm said he'd check on.
<ogra> right
<NCommander> [topic] UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)
<persia> <persia> MIssed that one.  I'll get something together for next week :)
 * ogra guesses thats mainly discussing with upstream
<NCommander> [topic] casper cleanup/speedup (JamieBennett)
<MootBot> New Topic:  casper cleanup/speedup (JamieBennett)
<ogra> yay
<JamieBennett> needs flashing out, anyone have experience with this?
<NCommander> I think we need to bump this to Medium, as live CD boot speed can be painful
<JamieBennett> NCommander: agreed
<ogra> JamieBennett, i know casper a bit
<persia> JamieBennett: I'd be happy to help review it with you.
 * NCommander knows it well enough to hit it with a sledgehammer
<JamieBennett> great
<davidm> guys I have to drop off now
<NCommander> casper is one of the few things that really needs minimal tweaks to work for new SoCs
<NCommander> davidm, cya
<NCommander> [topic] multiarch execution environment with qemu static (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  multiarch execution environment with qemu static (ogra)
<ogra> and we should come to an end
<ogra> fleshing out ...
<NCommander> ogra, I rather finish the specs out if no one has any objections.
<ogra> sure
<NCommander> [topic] Optimizations for SSD netbooks (dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Optimizations for SSD netbooks (dyfet)
<dyfet> This spec was a result of getting a netbook with ssd.
<dyfet> I self documented which things I did and why to optimize it for unr.
<dyfet> The spec is intended to propogate this for general case users.
<ogra> but sounds like very close to foundations space
<dyfet> It may be...
<NCommander> dyfet, might want to talk to mdz, he's done a lot with SSDs and boot speed I think.
<ogra> and i think Keybuk too
 * NCommander can't think who else has done work on this
<dyfet> Okay
<dyfet> Well, I can start by subscribing them to the spec
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: kernel version (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: kernel version (NCommander)
<Keybuk> please don't just do that
<Keybuk> please actually come talk to me
<dyfet> okay :)
<ogra> make sure to tie him up to a chair and bring him to the BoF :)
<NCommander> This is an informational spec just to make sure we have a proper roadmap for handling ARM kernels for the lucid cycle, and what versions we're going to peg various SoCs for the each stage of development
<ogra> i thought that was clear already
<ogra> we stick with what we have
<NCommander> ogra, this is more for any new SoCs we get, and what plans we have for new versoins from FSL and Marvell
<ogra> 2.6.31
<ogra> no further plans to my knowledge
<NCommander> ogra, so ax this spec?
<ogra> afaik we plan to stick with .31 for all armel
<ogra> no, keep it and fill it with the actual info
<NCommander> ogra, ah
<NCommander> [topic] LXDE Community Development for Lucid (dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  LXDE Community Development for Lucid (dyfet)
<ogra> so we can point users/vendors to the info
<dyfet> This was to track lxde efforts
<dyfet> since originally we did the specs for lxde for karmic
<dyfet> but it is now community driven
<NCommander> right
<ogra> well, it was supposed to from the beginning
<NCommander> Ok, w.r.t. to items on the agenda, I have UNR status, and the status of Desktop Switcher
<dyfet> this also was to have a single slot for discussion in uds for lxde
<ogra> we should just give it a kickoff setup
<NCommander> but no StevenK and no davidm, so I think these have to be a carry over
<NCommander> so
<ogra> yeah indeed
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<JamieBennett> We skipped, UMR: Moblin Remix Reloaded, was that intentional?
<NCommander> JamieBennett, I brought it up, persia said it needed discussion with vendors
<ogra> JamieBennett, well, NCommander said he didnt miss persia when i asked :P
<NCommander> and other people.
 * JamieBennett needs more sleep
<ogra> well, i have one AOB item ...
 * NCommander needs some toast to put his marmite on
 * JamieBennett hasn't forgot
<ogra> david asks us to look over the sponsoring queue and indeed to do our merges asap
<NCommander> JamieBennett, i managed to buy five jars when I was in NYC 125g each :-)
<persia> I didn't say anything about vendors.  I said something about interested parties.
<ogra> so please everyone do some merges
<NCommander> persia, sorry, misspoke
<JamieBennett> NCommander: ah, cool
 * NCommander has only two merges, both of which require fakesyncing
<ogra> the people who are not MOTU yet, please coordinate with someone with upload privs to get sponsored uploads
<ogra> NCommander, you are free to take more :)
<NCommander> BTW, if anyone is maintaining any package in Debian which is NOT migrating to testing, please poke me or a DD so we can fix that. Being able to autosync from testing is a good thing.
<ogra> https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html has the list in case you dont know
<NCommander> ogra, I'm spending some time fixing packages in Debian so they will autosync without me having to be constantly on it
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation
<ogra> has infos on how to do it right
<NCommander> (KDE is for instance stuck in Debian sid)
<ogra> given that we are supposed to do everything in bzr if possible
<ogra> so please take a look at that wikipage and pick some merges :)
<NCommander> Anything else before I close the meeting down
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> Goodbye!
<NCommander> (sorry for the long meeting)
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:26.
<ogra> wow, that was 30 min over time
<asac> thanks
<ogra> we need to improve here :)
<NCommander> ogra, our record is one hour 20 minutes over.
<ogra> thanks
<GrueMaster> We still missed UNR status and Desktop Switcher.
<plars> ah yes
<asac> if someone needs help/sponsorship on getting started on merges, feel free to ping me ;)
<NCommander> GrueMaster, we skipped it due to ENOSTEVENK ENODAVIDM
<asac> quick question: stevenk usually does not attend this meeting, right?
<asac> i assume its the middle of the night for him
<ogra> he usually does
<asac> oh
<asac> so he works like me ;)
<plars> it's what, 1:30 AM there right now?
<GrueMaster> Actually, he does.  He just has a flight to leave for soon.
<ogra> 1:28 in sydney atm
<GrueMaster> He has a 7am flight.
<GrueMaster> And he needs all the beauty sleep he can get.  :P
<plars> we are trying to teach him to be nocturnal
<lool> ogra: We do NOT create the FS with parted...
<lool> ogra: parted might create a fs, but the real FS with actual contents is dd-ed on top of it
<lool> asac: Problem with ppp is actually a problem with images containing .debs with "~" in their version number on a vfat image
<asac> hmm ok
<asac> thanks
<lool> asac: We used to release VFAT images for UNR (.img) and we are still using VFAT for arm images; ppp used to have a ~ in its version number which meant a ~ in the .deb filename; ppp was included in the pool/ in the images; however when debian-cd created the md5 list which is put on the CD, it would output a truncated filename
<lool> asac: 360925
<lool> asac: If you download the jaunty UNR ISO, you should see that find pool -iname ppp\* lists:
<lool> pool/main/p/ppp/ppp_245~.d
<asac> ok will check that
<ogra> asac, lool, we have a good bunch of packages with ~ in their name that dont cause probs ... its the lenght of the filename in combination with ~ here
<lool> ogra, asac: Note that it's only for packages in the pool/
<lool> Not all packages in the squash
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> which is why we dont hit it on desktop images
<ogra> ppp is installed in the squashfs with karmic
<lool> Indeed, there are other packages with ~ in the pool on this image; it's likely not just the presence of ~ but that's certainly a trigger
<ogra> yeah
<lool> http://paste.ubuntu.com/315174/
<ogra> its more than one trigger ~ is one
<lool> find pool|grep \~
<ogra> yup, i did that before :)
<ogra> but i'll leave the spec to NCommander :)
<NCommander> ogra, lool w.r.t. to extX images, I thought part of the reason for doing that was also that having more robust filesystem would be a good thing, and we wanted to be able to take advantage of hardlinks and such. I'm looking into what causes the ppp bug, so hopefully can fix that even if we don't go with vfat images
<ogra> yes, that should be one of the focus points of the spec
<lool> NCommander: Hmm yes, I think it's orthogonal
<lool> I dont think the ppp bug should be part of a spec, it's just a bug
<lool> Except it's not trivial to reproduce   :-/
<NCommander> lool, I'll revise the spec. As it stands now, I'm pulling down everything to create alternates locally for i386 and armel so i should be able to start locally reproducing in a few hours
<lool> Ok; admitedly I wasn't reproducing in ideal conditions (using symlinks to the ftp mirror)
<NCommander> lool, ogra, lets move this to a more appropriate channel :-)
<ogra> -arm
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-11
<starcraft-ntbk> new doc member?
<zul> morning
<ttx> o/
<mathiaz> o/
<ttx> soren, smoser: ?
<Daviey> \o - Apologies, can't be here for the meeting - please see my comments on the ubuntu-server ml regarding spamassassin
<ttx> Daviey: will read -- see you next week ;)
<Daviey> \o
<smoser> 0/
 * stgraber waves
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:02. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> Today's agenda:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ttx> ACTION: kirkland to add a recipe covering virsh to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/VirtManager
<ttx> kirkland left a note about that on the meeting agenda
<ttx> Done -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/VirtManager and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/Virsh
<ttx> ACTION: nurmi to investigate bug 455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<ttx> I don't think nurmi is around
<ttx> I'll add two more two his list, since absents are always wrong...
<ttx> [ACTION] numri to help validation/fixing bugs 460085 and bug 461156
<MootBot> ACTION received:  numri to help validation/fixing bugs 460085 and bug 461156
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460085 in eucalyptus "memory leak; rampart_context not freed (memory leaked per connection)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460085
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461156 in euca2ools "User data is not parsed correctly by Eucalyptus in some cases" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461156
<ttx> smoser: no progress on that last one ?
<soren> o/
<smoser> no. i've not gotten around to digging there, and have sent irc pings but no response.
<ttx> ok
<ttx> ACTION: Daviey to investigate spamassassin status in lucid
<ttx> Daviey sent an update about this on ubuntu-server ML
<soren> He said he'd sent somethign to the...
<soren> right.
<ttx> ACTION: mathiaz to update the fridge
<mathiaz> ttx: sent an email to news teeam
<ttx> mathiaz: change is not effective yet ?
<mathiaz> ttx: it is actually
<ttx> good :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] UDS: server track planning
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS: server track planning
 * nijaba waves
<ttx> mdz is not around, but he should work on scheduling the server track before the end of the week.
<ttx> If you want to make sure he doesn't miss your blueprint, please name it server-lucid-* and set him as approver.
<ttx> There can be two parallel sessions in the server track (as with other tracks)
<ttx> so you should subscribe to the blueprints you are interested in to try to avoid scheduling conflicts
<ttx> Any questions ?
<zul> nope
<zul> mdz is leading the tracks?
<ttx> stgraber: some of yours are close to some others
<ttx> zul: yes
<ttx> server-lucid-desktop-cloud and server-lucid-nx
<ttx> server-lucid-contextualization and server-lucid-non-accel-virt
<ttx> Those might get scheduled on the same slot, I don't really know.
<stgraber> ttx: right, I guess some of them weren't visible on LP at the time I added mine
<ttx> stgraber: they probably were, but blueprint search is not so good :)
<ttx> ok, moving on...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Merging, merging, merging
<stgraber> well, for the NX one, I guess we can discuss the big picture at one and the specific of getting NX in at the other
<ttx> stgraber: right
<MootBot> New Topic:  Merging, merging, merging
<ttx> Lucid is open for merging, which is a great way to learn packaging for starters
<stgraber> the other doesn't mention contextualization but alternate virtualization technologies, that's quite different (at least from my point of view)
<ttx> stgraber: ok
<ttx> mathiaz: do you think we should compile a list of easy merges ?
<mathiaz> ttx: we could
<mathiaz> ttx: it seems to have helped last time
<ttx> mathiaz: do you have time to do that ?
<mathiaz> ttx: I can have a look at it
<ttx> + the relevant blogging publicity ?
<ttx> ok
<mathiaz> ttx: sure
<ttx> [ACTION] mathiaz to compile a list of easy merges for publication
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to compile a list of easy merges for publication
<ttx> mathiaz: note that there are quite a few easy Java library merges, however we are trying to commit to debian-java in parallel, so it might make sense to keep those alone
 * mathiaz oks
<ttx> Comments on the subject of merging ?
<zul> there is a couple of syncs already taken care of as well
<ttx> does the MoM output update ?
<mathiaz> ttx: it should
<ttx> It didn't reflect my merging so far
<ttx> looks stuck at Nov 9
<zul> yeah it looks like it hasnt been updated
<mathiaz> ttx: yeah - Keybuk kicked off a new instance of MoM
<mathiaz> ttx: as it used to sync from unstable
<ttx> mathiaz: ...
<mathiaz> ttx: it may take some time to do the first round of merges of testing
<ttx> ok
<ttx> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<mathiaz> ttx: so I don't know how usefull MoM is for now
<ttx> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<ttx> Nothing needs assignment, comments on other bugs ?
<zul> nope
<ttx> I'll retest the eucalyptus in -proposed sometime today
<mathiaz> ttx: great thanks
<ttx> Moving on...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review
<ttx> mathiaz: mind driving that part ?
<mathiaz> ttx: nope
<mathiaz> let's go ahead for the list review
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<zul> i have 2
<mathiaz> anything worth SRU on this list?
<zul> bug #403775
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 403775 in krb5 "passwd fails when kerberos server points to an IPv6 host" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403775
<zul> and bug #479250
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 479250 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "ORDER BY DESC in InnoDB not working" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/479250
<ttx> zul:  which series is affected ?
<zul> both are for hardy
<Keybuk> ttx: actually merges.ubuntu.com is entirely based off testing
<Keybuk> it's stuck at Nov 9 because that's when the first v3 source package hit testing ;)
<ttx> Keybuk: so the reports are not regenerated with new packages uploaded to lucid ?
<Keybuk> correct
<ttx> Keybuk: is that a bug or a feature ? :)
<Keybuk> that it can't process v3 packages?
<Keybuk> it's an RT ticket
<ttx> Keybuk: ok, thx
<mathiaz> ok - so all nomination lists are empty
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> ^^ list of accepted bugs that have an assignee
<mathiaz> the eucalyptus SRU is on its way
<ttx> zul: there is a new candidate for samba sru (again) something about winbind
<zul> ttx: yeah I saw that this morning
<zul> i wanted to talk to you about it first
<ttx> bug 479955
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 479955 in samba "winbind authentication fails after karmic upgrade" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/479955
<mathiaz> zul: how are other SRU doing for hardy?
<ttx> zul: ok, off-meeting
<zul> mathiaz: good just looking for testers as usual
<mathiaz> zul: ok
<mathiaz> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+activereviews
<mathiaz> is empty
<mathiaz> zul: are you using package branches?
<zul> mathiaz: yep just been concentrating on lucid this week
<mathiaz> zul: great.
<mathiaz> that's all for the weekly SRU review
<ttx> thanks mathiaz !
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<ttx> Who will be in not-so-sunny Dallas next week ?
 * stgraber waves
<zul> mememememme
<mathiaz> o/
<mjeanson> o/
 * zul is looking forward to wearing short
<ttx> A texan once told me that it never rained in Texas, but apparently he lied
<zul> shorts even
<ttx> http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USTX0327?from=36hr_topnav_undeclared
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USTX0327?from=36hr_topnav_undeclared
<ttx> Looks like... Dublin in summer.
 * nijaba wonders in what list should 450044 appear.  Status has not changed since last week.
<ttx> bug 450044
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 450044 in euca2ools "euca-bundle-vol does not create essential tmpfs mounts when bundling Ubuntu images" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/450044
<nijaba> ttx: you had agreed last week that it was SRU worthy
<ttx> I did ?
 * nijaba thinks so...
<ttx> note that I wasn't present at last week meeting ...
<mathiaz> euca2ools is not part of the packages to which the ubuntu-server team is a bug contact
<ttx> ah-ah
<ttx> mathiaz: it should
<mathiaz> ttx: it is now
<ttx> I admit some ignorance on how euca-bundle-vol should behave
<nijaba> ttx: it is fixed in eucalyptus, according to neil soman
<nijaba> ttx: I think it would be a good idea to allow a very common operation to work with UEC
<ttx> nijaba: ok, adding to my list, though I'm quite busy those days
<nijaba> ttx: I bet you are, but sometime is better than never :)
 * ttx wonders when was the last time he was /not/ busy
 * nijaba just wanted to make sure this bug was not forgotten
<ttx> any other subject ?
<zul> ttx: before you started working on ubuntu?
<ttx> zul: no, at the very beginning, I remember having some free time.
<ttx> [TOPIC] Next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting date and time
<ttx> We'll skip next week
<ttx> and be back on Nov 25, probably 1400 UTC again
<ttx> though we are still trying to better accomodate the west coast.
<mathiaz> works for me
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:43.
<nijaba> Thanks ttx
<mathiaz> thanks ttx
<nijaba> See you in Dalla
<nijaba> Dallas too :)
<stgraber> thx, see you all in Dallas
<ttx> o/
<davmor2> hello
<ara> hello
<cr3> ahoy, mateys
<ara> today all the US folks won't attend, so it should be a quick meeting :-)
<ara> OK, let's start
<ara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is ara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ara> Agenda:
<ara> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<ara> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<ara> # Testing Team blueprint
<ara> [TOPIC] -  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<MootBot> New Topic:  -  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<ara> sbeattie is on holiday, but he asked me to pass his SRU report here
<ara> he's very committed :-)
<ara> Stable Release Update (SRU) Acivity for the past week (since 2009-11-04):
<ara> * karmic: 40 new packages in -proposed and 46 packages pushed to -updates
<ara> * jaunty: 3 new packages in -proposed (clamav, kvm, landscape-client) and 4 packages pushed to -updates (isdnutils, kdepim, pm-utils, pythonmagick)
<ara> * intrepid: no package activity (except security updates)
<ara> * hardy: 2 new packages in -proposed (apache2, lilo-installer) and 1 package pushed to -updates (pidgin)
<ara> * dapper: no package activity (except security updates)
<ara> Thanks to Simon DÃ©ziel, Id2ndR, madbiologist, Bernhard, Kenneth PÃ¥lsson, Charles Curley, Ariel Faigon, Francis Russell, mzc, Lemmiwinks, Brian O'Keefe, fabrice_sp, sigvdr, Psycona, Luca Ferretti, Roman Fiedler, squishlikeabug, nentis, Edward, Evan Broder, Imre Gergely, Alex Muntada, Anders Virving, Neil Messenbird , cochisebt, Andreas Wenning, Rod Davison, Christophe Sauthier, Nicolas Adenis-Lamarre, Stephen Laverty, Matti Hi
<ara> ljanen, starslights, Matej Kenda, Mattias Holmlund, Paul Elliott, olive, YoBoY, prometheus, Peter Whittaker, Peter Lyons, Nathan Handler, Andrea Veria, Alessio Treglia, las, Tobias Kerzenmacher and others for testing SRUs this week.
<ara> Lots of people!
<pedro_> things are looking good there, as per http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<ara> help would be appreciated with SRUs that have been sitting in the -proposed queue for a while (http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html lists the length of time a given package has been waiting).
<pedro_> yeah, especially bug 444979 and bug 462626
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: HTTP Error 503: Service Temporarily Unavailable (https://launchpad.net/bugs/444979)
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: HTTP Error 503: Service Temporarily Unavailable (https://launchpad.net/bugs/462626)
<pedro_> thanks for nothing ubottu
<ara> nice, Launchpad :)
<ara> OK, next topic
<pedro_> well those are the oldest sru there, so might need a bit more of attention
<ara> indeed
<ara> one wonders where the original reporter is :)
<ara> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugday highlights -- pedro
<ara> pedro_ even
<pedro_> right so past week we had the Gwibber hug day https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091105
<pedro_> not a lot of people contributed though, but we managed to triage a lot of reports there
<ara> who is kamus?
<pedro_> ~48 or so
<ara> he/she did a great job there
<pedro_> ah kamus is a bugsquad member, he's always rocking on the bug days
<pedro_> yes big thank to him and to Adam
<pedro_> and tomorrow we're having a bug day based on Nautilus https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091112
<pedro_> so any help is more than welcome
<pedro_> that's all from here
<ara> OK
<ara> [TOPIC] Testing Team blueprint -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Testing Team blueprint -- ara
<ara> OK, as you may now know, we want to improve the way we test in Ubuntu for Lucid
<ara> We are working on creating a new Testing team with regular meetings, mailing list, roadmaps etc.
<ara> We are going to be discussing the topic in UDS Dallas, so if you are interested, please, subscribe to the blueprint
<ara> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-qa-testing-team
<ara> also, in the Spec, under BoF agenda, you can add the items you think are worth discussing
<ara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/TestingTeam
<pedro_> is that blueprint/discussion already scheduled?
<ara> yes, it is wednesday, in the latest slot of the day (IIRC)
<pedro_> maybe people can attend to it remotely, IRC always help
<pedro_> cool
<ara> yes, of course, remote attendees are more than welcome
<davmor2> not that late I don't think I will
<ara> davmor2, :)
<ara> OK, that's everything for me
<ara> anything else?
<davmor2> Nope
<ara> any other topics?
<davmor2> nope
<pedro_> noup just a quick question
<ara> pedro_, yes?
<pedro_> regarding the uds schedule, do you know why the sessions don't appear on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-l/track/qa/
<pedro_> but they do on the daily ones
<ara> pedro_, I think per track is broken in the summit site
<ara> jono ? ^
<pedro_> i'm a bit confuse about that
<ara> I will ask jono again and will send an email about to ubuntu-qa
<pedro_> ah might be that, not really important though just a little doubt
<pedro_> ara, awesome, thank you
<ara> OK, I think we can wrap up
<ara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:22.
<ara> Thanks guys :)
<pedro_> thanks
<davmor2> bye
<jono> ara, that is broken, known bug
<jono> jcastro ^
<jono> a fix is in the works
<jono> jcastro can follow up
<ara> thanks jono
<johnvilsack> Greetings folks!  The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team meeting will begin in about ten minutes.  I'd like to give folks a few minutes to gather and come in if they would like :)
<johnvilsack> If I'm doing this wrong, please let me know :)  This is my first time moderating such a meeting here.
<DPic> doing great johnvilsack =]
<johnvilsack> I appreciate the encouragement! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-12
<DPic> i redirected https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Reorganization to the appropriate meeting minutes page
<johnvilsack> Excellent!
<johnvilsack> Ok folks!  Welcome to the Ubuntu Community Marketing Team meeting!  My name is John Vilsack and I will be moderating tonight's entertainment. :)
<johnvilsack> Over the next hour, I'd like us to have an open discussion about the direction we'd like to take marketing as a community team, and what we can do to help provide more tools for our enthusiastic members throughout the world.
<johnvilsack> If you are a part of our mailing list, you will have seen the agenda I sent out earlier today.  I'll cover it briefly.
<johnvilsack> First, I'd like to give you all an update as to what has gone on since I became more active in trying to help us get better organized.
<johnvilsack> After that, I'd like to open the floor for three topics one after another: How to improve on being more accessible to volunteers, how to make the data and materials we make more accesible to others, and finally how to make our active projects more noticable so volunteers can join in the good fight.
<johnvilsack> After that, I failed to mention that if anyone has any other business, we should cover it then, and finally close out by discussing any points we should tackle later.
<johnvilsack> If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask away and I'll do my best to not embarass myself :)
<DPic> i'm not sure how much we can get done during this meeting since there seemed to be some conflicts so there are a number of people missing, but we should be able to sort out the major things, i think
<johnvilsack> Now as I said, my name is John and I have been a part of the Ubuntu Marketing Team for over a year.  I came on board and found a very quiet, segmented group that got some stuff done in little segments, but there didn't seem to be a lot of activity public.
<johnvilsack> In the beginning of my time, someone had tried to make the group "more active" but met with some resistance.  This happened again and when that was looking like it was going to fail, I offered to help out.
<DPic> was that person me?
<DPic> i don't remember meeting any resistance but i *did* redesign the wiki entirely
<DPic> gave it a lot of structure, etc.
<johnvilsack> A little about me:  I am the (by day) director of IT at a snowboarding company in Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA.  I've worked on several political campaigns in their grassroots movements, several other open source projects, and have a desire to basically throw myself into things against my wife's better judgement ;)
<johnvilsack> Anyway, I just wanted to give a bit of background :)
<johnvilsack> @DPic: I'm not 100% sure.  I remember the gentleman who tried back then was older, and wanted to see it but was't willing to lead the charge. :(
<johnvilsack> The first order of business:  Update
<DPic> ah, i don't remember that
<DPic> Update?
<johnvilsack> Right when I scheduled the meeting, I had posted a Google Doc Form on the mailing list to help see who all was active and what they were interested in doing.
<DPic> ah
<johnvilsack> We got a much better sample than I was honestly expecting to see!  Using a Doc Form was a bit foreign to the group (and me) but we ended up with 16 responses.
<johnvilsack> And I realized I didn't even respond and I'm the one who created it ;)
<DPic> haha
<johnvilsack> Of the responses, many of the responders were people who wanted to lead projectss which is great!
<popey> will you be publishing the results?
<popey> "Hello" btw
<DPic> popey: the results have always been public iirc
<johnvilsack> It means that those who want to be active in the vocal sense are willing to step up and take the reigns
<popey> DPic: where?
<johnvilsack> Yes sir, the doc and everything are all completely open to the world.
<johnvilsack> let me check one sec
<johnvilsack> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtL0i3WC8jUzdGhXTkRjQmJiSjVKeVZGWVo1NFpEeWc&hl=en
<johnvilsack> Those are the registrants.
<popey> oops
<popey> i didnt fill it in
<johnvilsack> I'm quite pleased to see that we have so many willing to step forward and help.  What this means is that we DEFINITELY need to start adding mechanics to the group that allow us to publish our projects, needs, and roles we want to fill.
<johnvilsack> and by roles I mean the roles in each project.
<johnvilsack> It also means almost 20 people read the walls of text we all post to the mailing list, and that has to be a good thing! :)
<johnvilsack> So that brings us to the next point.  I'd like to talk about how we can improve access to the marketing team.
<DPic> okay this is what i see:
<johnvilsack> I had an idea, and I will throw it out there and then let you all run with what you have :)
<DPic> the marketing team has always been *accessible*
<DPic> it's always been a place where people can bring their projects
<johnvilsack> agreed
<DPic> there has simply never been projects that want to for one reason or another
<Takyoji> Just needs more active members
<DPic> perhaps LoCo's are taking care of it just fine
<DPic> what advantage does being a central resource provide anyone?
<vadi2> DPic: "it's always been a place where people can bring their projects" claarif that please
<DPic> i think we need regular activities
<vadi2> *clarify
<johnvilsack> I think it serves a different purpose, to be honest.
<johnvilsack> Here's an example.
<DPic> vadi2: people have always been aple to create a project page on the wiki and announce it to the mailing list
<vadi2> about a ubuntu promotion activity?
<johnvilsack> To keep this politically agnostic, let's call my candidate "Candidate A"
<Takyoji> Because everytime I make something and ask for review, or prompt a marketing-related question. There's really nobody that answers most of the time
<DPic> vadi2: what about one?
<DPic> Takyoji: really? on the mailing list?
<Takyoji> IRC
<johnvilsack> When we organized the Meetups, Meetups acted like the LoCos do for Ubuntu.  They are completely on their own, and could choose to use ,or not use, whatever they wanted.
<DPic> Takyoji: ah, IRC isn't always very active...
<johnvilsack> What the "marketing" arm did was created materials that went to the Meetups monthly.
<vadi2> DPic: I don't think it's accessible, because I don't even know where the wiki is. I went to http://www.ubuntu.com/community, and the "Promote Ubuntu" icon is missing.
<Takyoji> Usually I prefer more in the direction of forums over mailing lists
<johnvilsack> It had flyers, info, stickers, etc. for each group.  But they didn't have to use it, but it was there
<DPic> vadi2: i think it will soon be replaced with a link to spread ubuntu
<johnvilsack> anyway, that's kind of what I see Marketing helping with.  Craft the message that people can choose to use if they want, but give them the freedom that they can use it only if they want to :)
<johnvilsack> As for improving things for us...I think the first step is helping us, the volunteers.
<DPic> johnvilsack: the spread ubuntu website makes a central effort for that on it's own
<DPic> not sure if that activity can keep this team afloat
<DPic> at the very most, it'll get us a bunch of artists
<johnvilsack> right, but not activists.
<popey> depends
<johnvilsack> the first step in my mind is to make the marketing landing page easier t access.
<Flannel> johnvilsack: Creating resources for the various other teams to use.  That's the conclusion that was arrived at 18 months ago (or whatever) as well.
<popey> if you can "communitize" the resource it can
<popey> get people to report back on events to the spread ubuntu site
<popey> spread ubuntu doesn't just have to be about downloadable leaflets
<johnvilsack> right, that's how it should be.
<popey> it can be a community of activists too
<johnvilsack> I think SpreadUbuntu can be this tool, for certain
<johnvilsack> But again, who is the target audience?
<DPic> anyone and everyone. that's project-specific
<popey> the answer to that is almost always "everyone"
<johnvilsack> remember, you have the people you want to fall in love with Ubuntu, or the people who love it already and want to spread the word
<DPic> you mean who should be a member of this team?
<johnvilsack> no no
<johnvilsack> I mean when we talk about making things accessible to folks, remember the types of people who may come across what you are doing.
<johnvilsack> My first thought is we have to improve on getting people who want to help find what they want faster.
<johnvilsack> and that's what spread ubuntu is
<johnvilsack> but even SpreadUbuntu is still scatter-shot so to speak.  it tries to be everything for everyone.
<johnvilsack> Here's a question.
<DPic> and i think it does that better than this team
<johnvilsack> This is how I think of the issue.
<johnvilsack> Right DPic, that's what I want to change :)
<DPic> johnvilsack: isn't that counter-productive?
<johnvilsack> The question is:  If I think Ubuntu is awesome, and I am a marketing person who wants to contribute, Where do I go?
<johnvilsack> and when I get there, what do I see?
<DPic> i think we need a new purpose or to disband and stop distracting people from worthy endeavors like spread ubuntu
<johnvilsack> How can I just get my hands dirty and get working?
<DPic> you go to your LoCo and/ore spreadubuntu
<johnvilsack> and what if you don't have an active loco?
<johnvilsack> because that happens.
<DPic> forums
<DPic> IRC
<johnvilsack> what if you want to start a new one?
<vadi2> or what if you got creepy linux geeks in the loco :\
<johnvilsack> The point is, there is not even a place to "Get Started"
<DPic> johnvilsack: anyone can start a new one. there's no need for a marketing team tehre
<Flannel> SpreadUbuntu isn't a project for marketing people to contribute to.  The result of the SpreadUbuntu project is a website that you can contribute to.
<DPic> johnvilsack: yes there is. the wiki
<Flannel> DPic: That's an important distinction your comment a smidge ago seemed to confuse.
<johnvilsack> The wiki isn't very helpful to a newcomer.
<johnvilsack> but I'd like it to be.
<leogg> the marketing team should be a point of support for LoCo Teams, not the other way around
<johnvilsack> I think in my perfect scenario, the Marketing page on the Wiki would have simple buttons:
<popey> the loco council is the point of support for loco teams :)
<Flannel> popey: Different kind of support
<johnvilsack> "Contribute Artwork" "View Current Marketing Projects" "Start Your Own Marketing Project", etc.
<leogg> popey:  I mean support for marketing efforts
<popey> ok
<popey> "support" as in "provide materials to locos, to support them in their advocacy efforts"?
<johnvilsack> some of those integrate in tightly with SpreadUbuntu.  but SpreadUbuntu is not the end all be all for marketing.  Its not a holy grail that people are going to flock to for all of their needs
<leogg> popey: yes
<johnvilsack> because it can't support them all, and it shouldn't
<Flannel> popey: Yes
<popey> cool
<DPic> johnvilsack: i think it can better than we can for 90% of stuff
<johnvilsack> it needs to be a tool, but it doesn't have to be the whole machine
<johnvilsack> Only because the group hasn't tried to have direction.
<johnvilsack> and it seems like we have people in place that want to help.
<Flannel> johnvilsack: Its original/full featured form can be though.  The repository of stuff was just one aspectof the whole spreadubuntu site.
 * DPic has a *new* idea for the marketing team.
<Flannel> There was an entire website surrounding it, which could also support collaboration of projects and stuff too, should we want
<johnvilsack> and yet, Get Materials, Make Materials, Translate Materials and Share Materials are the primary buttons and functions of the site that's live.
<johnvilsack> So...its a repository
<johnvilsack> which is absolutely necessary
<johnvilsack> but again, not the end all be all.
<Takyoji> Then what does it need?
<Flannel> johnvilsack: That's bcause that's *just* the repository section.
<johnvilsack> What I think is needed is something to remove the barrier of helping.
<DPic> johnvilsack: it can be expanded and be much more effective than our wiki/team can.
<DPic> How about this:
<DPic> i've been working on getting a project off the ground
<DPic> a local project
<DPic> but a big one
<popey> !enter
<ubottu> Please try to keep your questions/responses on one line - don't use the "Enter" key as punctuation!
<johnvilsack> DPic, I appreciate your zest for SpreadUbuntu, but I think they work together, not apart from one another
<DPic> i'm not going to give out the details right now, but we're goign to be setting a precedent for LoCos and FOSS groups
<DPic> because we're creating a system which will allow teams to get fiscal sponsorship for little or no cost
<DPic> i'm also compiling a list of media contacts to send out press releases to. what if the marketing team took up the responsibility of publicising advocacy projects?
<DPic> since once this system is ready, a *lot* of them could be popping up
<johnvilsack> That sounds like a great project for the group, but no one "thing" is something this team would be responsible for.
<johnvilsack> But, I'm going to close out this section with this:
<DPic> but there needs to be something
<DPic> because the teems needs some main, regular activity
<johnvilsack> This is the perfect example of the type of project you should be able to get to from the main Marketing pages so you can go and contribute.
<johnvilsack> and a Project Manager should have tasks broken up and accessible for people to do, because that would be effective.
<johnvilsack> let people choose their own level of involvement
<johnvilsack> Ok, we're 6 minutes over, so please onto the next topic.
<DPic> johnvilsack: usually agenda's allow topics to go on as long as are needed
<popey> DPic: not when there is a fixed duration
<johnvilsack> *** How can we integrate more of the work and knowledge from SpreadUbuntu and other areas into our marketing efforts?
<DPic> by working on expanding spreadubuntu?
<DPic> in the areas it's lacking
<johnvilsack> @vadi I just closed that window, sorry.  Please resend
<popey> identify the areas its lacking
<DPic> wherever johnvilsack thinks it doesn't do what is needed.
<johnvilsack> Dpic: The question isn't "how can we help SpreadUbuntu" but how to integrate in more tightly.
<johnvilsack> I think its kind of a poor question, because it really is its own source.
<johnvilsack> but there its not accessible through the marketing pages on the wiki easily.
<johnvilsack> nor can you really get to "anything" without going to SU and having to finger through it all.
<johnvilsack> So, I hate my own question :)
<Flannel> johnvilsack: File a bug against SU.  There are some problems with it's current implentation, they can be fixed.
<johnvilsack> The biggest problem only seems to be getting to it.
<johnvilsack> If I go to the main marketing page, I can't get to SpreadUbuntu nor does it even really say "go here because this is where the most activity seems to be"
<johnvilsack> But since my question sucked, I'll answer yours :)  Where is the best place for a new person to go to say "I want to hel contribute to spreadUbuntu?"
<popey> johnvilsack: thats in the process of being fixed as they get a .ubuntu.com domain sorted by Canonical IS department
<leogg> johnvilsack: add a link in the main marketing page
<DPic> why would they say that? if they're saying that, it's safe to say thay're *at* spreadubuntu
<DPic> and everything is explained there
<johnvilsack> Because I just asked the question.  We can't assume anything.
<johnvilsack> I don't know where to go.  I'm on the site right now.
<DPic> there are four big buttons
<popey> well i clicked "learn more"
<popey> and found out pretty quickly
<popey> it links to a task list, and about how to join the team
<popey> one click off the home page
<johnvilsack> I see some downloads, I can share some stuff if I want, or join a campaign.  But I don't see anywhere that says "join us in helping to develop spreadubuntu from a backend perspective" as opposed to just uploading my poster.
<popey> "Learn more about SpreadUbuntu"
<popey> "If you're thinking about actively participating, consider joining our team and the mailing l"
<popey> +ist
<johnvilsack> I see that now, thanks.
<leogg> johnvilsack:  I don't understand what's the big issue with SU... at least it's one of the components of the marketing team that actually works (not perfectly, but it can be improved)
<popey> ditto
<johnvilsack> I'm not saying its broken.
<DPic> ditto
<popey> it's a tool in the marketing team arsenal
<johnvilsack> I think its awesome.
<johnvilsack> I agree with Popey.
<leogg> johnvilsack: let's concentrate on the positive aspects of SU, and see how we can improve it
<johnvilsack> I honestly feel like the discussions about improving our Marketing Team are some sort of contest between me and everyone who supports SpreadUbuntu.
<johnvilsack> I don't see it that way, and wish people would see they are different parts of the same machine.
<leogg> johnvilsack: SU and the marketing team are not incompatible
<johnvilsack> They are when every time I say "Marketing Team" and I have to defend it against SpreadUbuntu.
<johnvilsack> I personally want to see both succeed.
<popey> possibly because you tell us what we need, and people say "we have that already" or "we can implement that easily" in SU
<popey> which seems a valid response
<popey> "lets use the tools we have and improve them"
<popey> rather than starting again
<DPic> i've just seen the marketing team be a distraction that doesn't actually get thigns done, simply because it isn't needed
<leogg> popey: +1
<DPic> popey: +1
<johnvilsack> I agree with that popey and leogg, but not Dpic.
<johnvilsack> But whatever.
<popey> ok
<DPic> forgive me for being overly cynical
<johnvilsack> I think we need to use the tools in SU.
<popey> so turn this around..
<popey> What do we _need_, What's _missing_
<popey> ?
<johnvilsack> I think SU is the major, major part of anything we do
<popey> <- not a marketing expert, so doesn't know what we need as a team to do effective marketing
<popey> so I'm just asking, what do we think we need?
<johnvilsack> but we're missing grassroots accessibility.  We're missing any sort of package of a message we're trying to get across.  We're lacking a way for projects to be accessible to newcomers who have osme time to give but don't want to dig around and find things
<popey> I think you're massively overplaying the amount of time/effort required to "dig around"
<johnvilsack> We havea  great tool for us but we don't have the mechanics to help someone tomorrow.
<popey> the information and materials can be made more accessible, sure
<popey> and we need more of it
<popey> but I dont think we're a lost cause
<popey> johnvilsack: whats the use case that would result in someone not finding what they want?
<popey> lets say someone steps up to the marketing mailing list - a new person, using ubuntu for 2 years, wants to help..
<popey> What would we do?
<johnvilsack> We, or them?
<popey> We, to support them.
<johnvilsack> good question.
<popey> What would "we" as a team do to help "them" as activists/advocates, to "enable" them.
<popey> if we dont know the answer to that question then we have a problem
<johnvilsack> I would say we have a page that offers easy pathing to get them intelligently to where they want to go.  Give them access to projects that are being run ,how to start their own if one isn't available, access to what a loco is and how they can become active in it, etc
<leogg> johnvilsack: that can be easily done in the Ubuntu wiki
<johnvilsack> if they want to design, promote, etc...give them each pathing that empowers them to find it intuitively.  We can't expect them to know our vernacular, etc.
<popey> Ok, excellent, so breaking that down.. "an easy to read web page" - DPic has done well to improve the wiki pages.. there is probably room for improvement but we're looking good already
<popey> "access to projects" - this is going to amount to SU and...?? what ever other projects we (marketing team) come up with right?
<popey> which right now amounts to.. not much, but if we want to we _can_ start additional projects to supplement/contrast with SU, right?
<johnvilsack> the next step would be to make sure we have project leaders using systems that show what projects are out there, are breaking it down into small chunks volunteers could help with, and then collaborting with other projects to make sure we are all on the same page and not doing each other's work
<popey> ok, so we need to gather information about what projects exist
<Flannel> popey: Of course.  The additional projects can be anything.
<johnvilsack> after that my friends, its all the group.  Then we start individual projects about message, etc. and people will contribute to whichever ones appeal to them most.
<popey> some of those may not fall under "marketing team", as they may be "one man band" doing his own thing, which we could pull in and bring under our banner
<johnvilsack> and democracy wins.
<popey> ..or they could be brand new ideas for projects which come from existing members of the team, such as those ideas you had in the google spreadsheet
<johnvilsack> That is really all I am saying needs to happen.  Its not more substantial than that.
<popey> I think it mostly amounts to a bit of cat herding, organisation and documenting what we've got.
<johnvilsack> There are hundreds of little projects I want to do, but they come after we have a way for newcomers to join in on the fun easily.
<popey> "build it and they will come"
<johnvilsack> precisely.
<popey> i mean the other way round :)
<popey> from the bottom, not the top
<johnvilsack> Obviously, you can see now that this by no means replaces SU but in fact heavily relies on it.
<popey> I think we could get into a beauracratic feedback loop if we build infrastructure with no projects
<johnvilsack> because all of these projects would have source code...in the form of materials, etc.
<popey> In my mind projects need to come first (chronologically)
<popey> I'd love to continue, but it's 1AM here, and my bed is calling...
<popey> thanks for coming all.. nn
<johnvilsack> No worries popey, I'll be calling the meeting in a few anyways.  Thanks
<johnvilsack> Does anyone think that this is duplicating anything or a fruitless endeavor?
<popey> Oh, and I'll be at UDS if anyone wants a chat
<johnvilsack> We don't need to tear anything down.  Its about rebuilding what isn't working and adding to the power of what already exists.
<DPic> i'm not sure exactly what's happening, but i have no objections of what i've heard
<DPic> how can we help?
<johnvilsack> Thanks for asking :)
<johnvilsack> Well, based on my selective hearing this evening, here's what I think we decided.
<johnvilsack> SpreadUbuntu works awesome.  Nobody wants to change it.  There are things that the project needs help with, but its the most positive thing this group has ever done
<johnvilsack> We want to make things easier for new people to find, and have them begin helping the groups.  This will probably come in the form of changing the wiki to point to projects and SpreadUbuntu
<DPic> pointing to spreadubuntu now
<DPic> what else?
<johnvilsack> We need to wrangle up better use of (launchpad?) in the marketing team so that we can figure out what projects there are.
<leogg> There's already a lot of things going on at the LoCo level, so it may be worth pointing people to those projects
<Flannel> johnvilsack: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Projects/
<Flannel> johnvilsack: Wiki would be best
<DPic> Flannel: was just oging to link to that  =]
<Flannel> (and it already exists, etc)
<johnvilsack> We need to support these projects first by having them break down into chunks that people can break off very easily and do themselves.
<Flannel> johnvilsack: That'll happen differently for each project though
<johnvilsack> and finally, we need to make quite certain that we add alot of linking back to the Locos and explain their role, so people know about them
<johnvilsack> Flannel: I know.  But hopefully if we start setting some examples, we can set a standard of how people want their project pages to look.
<johnvilsack> Other than that, that should help set the stage for Marketing people to contribute more.
<johnvilsack> I was disappointed when I asked if people needed help with projects.  I'm worried that like you said, DPic, there isn't alot of initiative in the group.
<DPic> this page might be useful as well https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ActivismGuide
<johnvilsack> Two things I learned about volunteers:  You can't expect them to go hunting for something to do, and you can't expect them to take it when you tell them they are doing it wrong :)
<Flannel> johnvilsack: Last time the MarketingTeam started up, I volunteered to (and never finished) coming up with a "how to start a new project" guide thing (just a few steps) for that page.  I'll see if I can find that and finish/post.
<johnvilsack> I think the first big step is getting them to the work.  The last one doesn't matter much
<johnvilsack> Flannel: That would be awesome.
<johnvilsack> I hope to see many of these "projects" that come of this going right into SpreadUbuntu and making that site more powerful.
<Flannel> johnvilsack: MarketingTeam doesn't have to be about contributing to SpreadUbuntu.  Not all of our projects will fit into that page.
<johnvilsack> I think more than anything, it's going to be the community marketing for Ubuntu that we've needed for so long.
<johnvilsack> Agreed, but I think that as a window into Marketing, its going to be the portal.
<johnvilsack> Alright, well that sums it up on my end.  Thanks for being patient.  I eventually got to my point. :)
<johnvilsack> Does anyone have anything else?
<ScottK> Does the marketing team work on just Ubuntu or other flavors too?
<DPic> Mostly ubuntu,, but i see no problem promoting other flavors
<johnvilsack> Well then, I thank you all for coming, and I'm glad we got to talk.  I think maybe it got cloudly as to how much everyone thought I wanted to see change, but I'm a firm believer in small steps to a large goal :)
<johnvilsack> and we all have the same goal :)
<johnvilsack> THANK YOU FOR COMING, AND THIS CONCLUDES OUR UBUNTU COMMUNITY MARKETING MEETING
<DPic> bang your gavel
<ScottK> johnvilsack: Thanks for asking if anyone had anything else and then ignoring questions.
<DPic> ScottK: i answered you.
<johnvilsack> Scottk: DPic answered you :)
<johnvilsack> Sorry about that.
<ScottK> Well I was typing a followup
<ScottK> Not in a particularly useful way
<johnvilsack> Wee can certainly talk about it :)
<DPic> ScottK: how could we ignore something that you haven't sent yet?
<DPic> go ahead and send it.
<ScottK> DPic: 30 seconds between an answer and closing the meeting really doesn't give one a chance
<ScottK> Nevermind.
<Flannel> ScottK: There's no reason to restrict ourselves to the Ubuntu flavor.  "Ubuntu" in this case is the distro, not the flavor.
<DPic> ScottK: if you have just gone ahead and sked we would've answered
<DPic> i'm not sure what a more useful answer would've been. instead of asking for clarifying, we're now areguing about whether we ignored you when you didn't even try asking
<johnvilsack> Trust me when I say that if you have any questions, we can answer them.  But other distros technically aren't on this evenings docket.  So we can talk about it, but this was more about the marketing team mechanics
<johnvilsack> We're all still here though
<DPic> ScottK: you have the floor.
<ScottK> In Karmic we started a new flavor, Kubuntu Netbook.
<ScottK> We have about zero marketing so far.
 * ScottK is a developer, not a marketer.
<ScottK> We have one or two people who have expressed an interest in helping with Kubuntu related marketing and I was wondering how this team's work might also help with this.
<johnvilsack> I most definitely think that people would help
<johnvilsack> Well, assuming we can get people to do anything :)
<johnvilsack> But I definitely think there is room for projects of other *buntu flavors
<johnvilsack> I took the question to mean Debian, Gentoo, etc.
<ScottK> It sounds to me like you are currently in an organizational phase?
<DPic> ScottK: been stuck here for a while =]
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> For your next meeting, you might want to also send the announcment to kubuntu-devel as I think the Kubuntu people interested in marketing are subscribed there.
<ScottK> (you  will have to subscribe to post)
<ScottK> So I guess that's my suggestion for now, given where you are, so that people working in the different *buntu flavors can work together.
<johnvilsack> I think that's something we should definitely cover.
<johnvilsack> I'll post something in the mailing list for you and see what people say.
<johnvilsack> I agree though, it seems like it would be the perfect place to combine our energies
<Flannel> Is there another meeting coming up?  Should we move this to #ubuntu-marketing?
<ScottK> That was all I had.
<DPic> Flannel: ubuntu-meeting is logged. u-marketing is not
<johnvilsack> I think I'm all done.
<johnvilsack> Thanks everyone :)
<sbalneav> Edubuntu meeting now?
<mhall119|work> is there?
<Nubae> me too
<sbalneav> Lemme check the list
<sbalneav> ah, no
<sbalneav> 19:00 utc
<sbalneav> I think it's 18:00 now.
<sbalneav> hold on, lemme verigy
<mhall119|work> yeah, it's currently 18:07
<sbalneav> ok, so another hour
<sbalneav> well, 53 minutes
<mhall119|work> 51 now
<Nubae> so what s on the agenda
<Nubae> I promised to write a guide to becoming a developer
<Nubae> or something like that
<sbalneav> Nubae: Dunno.
<sbalneav> One supposes first order of business should be EC stuff: now woth LaserJock gone, we need a "leader" :)
<Nubae> yeah, I think that kinda naturally lands on your lap unfortunately
<Nubae> or fortunately
<Nubae> depending on how u loook at it
<Nubae> but I'd like to document the experience so that when people go off into hiatus, we know what to do
<Nubae> this... ok, so long and thanks for all the fish...
<Nubae> doesnt work so well with a distro leader
<Nubae> :-)
<sbalneav> My lap?! Cripes...
<sbalneav> I'm nobody
<Nubae> past tense...
<Nubae> jeez, at least in your email you seemed to be clear headed and strong about this
<Nubae> that is the sbalneav that needs to be here
<Nubae> so, Laserjock is leaving completely or he's just passing over the wheel?
<highvoltage> Nubae: he's stepping down from his EC role, he said he'll still be around if we need him
<highvoltage> sbalneav: edubuntu meeting is in about 30 minutes
<sbalneav> Nubae: There's a bit of a difference between "Having good ideas" to being the leader :)
 * alkisg votes sbalneav for president
<Nubae> sbalneav, I think u are going to find ureself in the position if u want it or not
<sbalneav> sigh
<Nubae> anyway it must have SOME perks
<sbalneav> What must have some perks? :)
<Nubae> so... say I was just joe schmoe from the street... I found ubuntu... had some windows experience say and wanted to help out, eventually even being a dev or god help us MOTU
<Nubae> the position
<sbalneav> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAA
<sbalneav> <snort>*wheze* you're funny
<Nubae> can u explain the journey
<Nubae> I'm being totally serious now
<sbalneav> No, because I haven't quite figured it out myself.
<Nubae> thats the main reason it needs documenting
<sbalneav> Hanging out on the irc channel helps
<jbicha> sbalneav: besides the loss of even and getting blamed for failure, you can take credit when things go well :-)
<Nubae> u CAN tell me what got u this far
<cody-somerville> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition
<jbicha> *even more time
<Nubae> ok, hanging out on irc is a valid point
<Nubae> it is a requirement
<sbalneav> Nubae: I've been involved with this... this... whatever our little ecosystem is, since like, 1988
<Nubae> the mailing list too I suppose
<Nubae> try to get  mentor
<sbalneav> I've just "always been here"
<Nubae> learn bash, python, and LTSP in and out
<Nubae> hmmm..... get used to the tools devhelp
<sbalneav> The problem is, with any project like this, you get a lot of people who have a vague sense they want to "help"
<Nubae> and d-feet
<highvoltage> hi!
<Nubae> jeez u know some of these things i didnt even figure out myself till recently
<Nubae> u know how god damn useful devhelp is
<sbalneav> but end up being completely unwilling to make the time, committment, and effort necessary to effect any useful work.
<sbalneav> Without putting too fine a point on it.
<sbalneav> *chough*ace_suarez*cough*
<highvoltage> now now, be nice
<Nubae> right, but if they see the document, its size its scope and are still willing to give it a go
<Nubae> then cool
<Nubae> right but if he saw a dev manual of several 1000 pages
 * stgraber waves to everyone
<Nubae> it might have been different
<sbalneav> Do I lie?  I'm simply saying the reality.
<stgraber> going to get some water, will be there in a minute
<highvoltage> seems like everyone is here for the meeting eh?
<alkisg1> ace did give time and effort. He just didn't agree with the community on what things to do and how.
<highvoltage> I guess it's aboot time we get started by the looks of things, eh?
<alkisg1> A bulleted list of where we need help would be nice...
 * jbicha says hi
<highvoltage> (I'm probably laying on the Canadian a bit thick there)
<Nubae> we say... ok, u wanna be a dev... go read that dev manual (yez we know its 1456 pages long)
<highvoltage> Agenda is up on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<sbalneav> Translation, he didn't want to give the time and effort to either conform to the community standards, or invest the time and effort to change the community standards.
<highvoltage> anyone want to take notes for the list?
<sbalneav> I'm all in favour of a dev manual
<Nubae> after reading the manual, I think we'd have weeded out
<sbalneav> but I think these things already exist
<sbalneav> ubuntu packaging guide, etc.
<Nubae> like with ltsp
<Nubae> helps loads
<highvoltage> ok I guess it will be me then
<Nubae> as does the telepathy manual
 * highvoltage taps the mic HELLO IS THIS THING ON
<sbalneav> at any rate.
 * sbalneav yields floor
<stgraber> alright, I'm here now ;)
<Nubae> there are no questioons there about oh, should I become a dev
<Nubae> ok
<alkisg1> Hey guys let us listen to the guy with the mic :)
<highvoltage> heh
<highvoltage> ok first up, as many of you will know, next week is the UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit)
<stgraber> anyone outside of me who will be in Dallas for UDS ?
<sbalneav> Not I
<highvoltage> so far there are 2 sessions registered that directly applies to Edubuntu:
<highvoltage>  * https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-edubuntu-community
<highvoltage>  * https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-edubuntu-roadmap
<highvoltage> and then there's also one for LTSP, for those who are intersted:
<highvoltage>  * https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-ltsp
<stgraber> ok, so I'll be onsite for these sessions, I'm giving a plenary session on Wednesday and so hope to get a few more interested people there
<alkisg1> stgraber: and some answers about the things laserjock asked canonical about edubuntu...
<stgraber> I'll then be looking at IRC during the sessions and will also be on skype if sound quality isn't good enough in the room
<highvoltage> stgraber was kind enough to set them up
<Nubae> has M Shuttleworth shown any more interested in edu?
<alkisg1> (i.e. name trademark, future plans etc)
<stgraber> current plans from Canonical regarding Edubuntu is to have it handled by the community
<highvoltage> there's a schedule of when the sessions take place when you scroll down on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-l/
<stgraber> the EC has been in touch with the CC recently to prepare things like elections, team handling, ...
<stgraber> so currently, we'll continue with Edubuntu, Ubuntu for education can still be used by Canonical from time to time and we still have the same support as other derivatives (except that we have part of our packages in Main)
<alkisg> Sounds nice
<highvoltage> imho we should merge it with edubuntu, since the Ubuntu in Education list is mostly floating around with no one taking care of it
<stgraber> we had a LONG discussion with the CC about most of that and also attended a few TB meetings to deal with more technical stuff and things like commerical support
<Nubae> but from the lips of the man himself, nothing about edu then?
<highvoltage> unless it's something that we adopt
<stgraber> highvoltage: agreed, though "Ubuntu for education" is still AFAIK the commercial title on ubuntu.com
<sbalneav> With the archive re-org, once someone becomes a motu, does that mean that we can maintain our packages ourselved?
<highvoltage> Nubae: just a second... I'm just looking for a mail he sent
<stgraber> sbalneav: there shouldn't be motu actually
<stgraber> there'll be something like edubuntu-dev
<stgraber> and the members will have upload rights to packaged handled by edubuntu-dev
<stgraber> (that's how I understand it, not sure all of that is right)
<highvoltage> Nubae: we sent an update to the CC about a month ago and Mark said "Glad to see forward motion on edubuntu - thank you!"
<sbalneav> ok, so here's my question.  I'm currently planning on becoming "motu". should I bother with that then? Or just keep fixing packages and putting them in the edubuntu-dev ppa
<stgraber> Nubae: Mark is happy to see edubuntu going forward but Canonical won't put any effort in it just yet
<highvoltage> Nubae: not sure if that answers your question :)
<stgraber> sbalneav: issue is we don't have a clear deadline on that archive reorganization or how it'll exactly be handled for Edubuntu
<sbalneav> "Don't tell me what you value, show me your budget, and I'll tell YOU what you value"
<stgraber> for example, I was talking with Jordan this morning and he said, that these teams will likely have to be approved and additional conditions on their membership will be applied
<alkisg> Who's gonna take up all the seeds & DVD work that LaserJock did?
<jbicha> stgraber: but is the archive re-org actually happening any time soon, could it still be a year or so away?
<stgraber> so not everyone can join edubuntu-dev and have upload rights to package that used to be in main and universe
<highvoltage> alkisg: they shouldn't require massive changes, except for when we get rid of the alternate installation
<stgraber> jbicha: it's happening, AFAIK a few teams were already decided as well as packages list, boards are also being reorganized for that, ...
<highvoltage> alkisg: stgraber is a core-dev at least so he can make and sponsor changes
<sbalneav> Personally, archive reorg aside, I'd perfer any "edubuntu" package that's NOT part of ubuntu itself should get demoted to universe.
<sbalneav> that lowers the bar to beccoming an edubuntu dev.
<alkisg> highvoltage, ok, as long as we have the know-how to even make 1 package change :)
<highvoltage> alkisg: and we do!
<stgraber> sbalneav: that's why I'd like to have an idea of when we can expect the archive reorg to take effect, because I don't want to go through the pain of demoting packages, update seed, ...
<sbalneav> right
<stgraber> if a few weeks/months after, everything goes in main
<sbalneav> stgraber++
<Nubae> thought stgraber was motu actually
<highvoltage> I think there's too many unknowns with the package re-organisation to have to discuss it now
<sbalneav> ok, table it then.
<highvoltage> Nubae: he became core-dev recently
<stgraber> Nubae: nope, I'm a Coredev since June or some like that
<highvoltage> Nubae: I became motu recently though
<Nubae> ah ok
<Nubae> must be thinking of someone else
<Nubae> oh qfunk
<alkisg> Does waiting for the archive reorg mean that we might lose any Lucid deadlines?
<sbalneav> and I'm plannin on becoming one, or whatever
<stgraber> alkisg: I don't think so
<stgraber> alkisg: I'm still quite present around here
<stgraber> also highvoltage is now working with me at Revolution Linux
<Nubae> alllthough qfunk isnt all that vocal
<stgraber> and I'm not the only Coredev at Revolution Linux
<Nubae> could be more
<sbalneav> alkisg: no, worst case, if we fix something, we just get (stgraber|highvoltage) to sponsor it.
<stgraber> so we can easily find a coredev to sponsor something
<alkisg> Nice
<sbalneav> I'll officially put my name forward for ec
<stgraber> sbalneav: thanks for that
<Nubae> I'd really like working on getting that list of apps that I pasted a couple of times to the list
<Nubae> they are universe apps
<stgraber> I'm still not exactly sure on how the EC will handle that, but we plan to have an announcement for elections this week or early next week
<highvoltage> sbalneav: great!
<Nubae> but would quickly grow edubuntu
<stgraber> as it's something we need to address ASAP
<Nubae> give it some cred
<sbalneav> There a process for that?  Fill my name in on a wiki page?  Give a skin sample from the back of my neck?  Kiss someone's backside? etc.
<Nubae> as far as I know its create a seed
<highvoltage> ok let's move on to EC elections, it was last on our agenda
<Nubae> similar to the ones already created
<highvoltage> but we can just as well do it now
<Nubae> give it a a name
<stgraber> sbalneav: we'll announce that quite soon, that's something both the current EC members and the CC need to do
<Nubae> and add the apps
<highvoltage> (hmm, we should actually be using mootbot)
<stgraber> ok, EC elections then
<Nubae> oh... btw... can I be a member
<alkisg> (we haven't even started the meeting :))
<alkisg> (I mean through a bot command)
<highvoltage> by the discussions I assume you are all aware of the EC and that there will be elections taking place soon?
<Nubae> :-) this was never formally done
<Nubae> :-)
<highvoltage> we've been discussing it with the CC and we'll have a round of nominations for a week, and then the week after we'll have the elections
<sbalneav> Nubae: I think the "microphone" thing was it. :)
<stgraber> Nubae: we need the EC to have quorum for that, currently we aren't quite enough (though in case of emergency we can ask LaserJock to attend)
<Nubae> ok, its just getting a bit ridiculous now since I've been doing heavy lifting for 2 years now
<alkisg> highvoltage: better give a single-line-definition of EC and CC...
<highvoltage> stgraber: I think it would be nice to get the ball rolling, if we announce tomorrow we could still get it on the fridge and do the nominations next week
<jbicha> how do EC nominations work? do people have to be nominated before the elections?
<stgraber> EC (Edubuntu Council), CC (Community Council)
<Nubae> and I I only started doing heavy lifiting fo opensuse couple months ago and am a core-dev tnere
<Nubae> there
<stgraber> highvoltage: agreed
<stgraber> hang on a sec, we have a wiki document I believe
<highvoltage> Nubae: yeah laserjock told me about that
<highvoltage> Nubae: you're not a motu yet are you?
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Council
<Nubae> no, havent gotten round to applying
<Nubae> need to feel a little bit more comfortable packaging officially
<highvoltage> Nubae: that's perhaps something we should work towards
<Nubae> most of the packaging I've done was for non official distro
<Nubae> k
<highvoltage> Nubae: that's a good start at least
<sbalneav> I think that's where the edubuntu-dev ppa's would come in.
 * alkisg signs up for any packaging lessons to be given...
<highvoltage> we've drifted off the EC Elections topic again somehow
<Nubae> so for that basically, package up some things show em off to u guys
<highvoltage> but I think edubuntu-specific packaging lessons might be useful
<stgraber> let's focus a bit on EC elections, please ;)
<highvoltage> we could perhaps colaboratively fix a bug in gcompris and a few other things at some point, etc
<stgraber> that's currently the first big thing to do if we want to have a strong edubuntu community
<sbalneav> ok, so they'll be announced
<alkisg> What's to focus? sbalneav applies, we vote him, end of story :D
<sbalneav> Well, we need others as well, correct?
<stgraber> alkisg: nope, we need to have the CC organize that, it's not so simple ;)
<alkisg> Ah
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I forgot some of the details, where would nominations be sent again, to the CC?
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Council
<highvoltage> sbalneav: or would we just do that publicly on the list?
<alkisg> Does EC need 5 members? Or are 4 enough?
<stgraber> ^^ that's the current process
<highvoltage> ah yes! I actually noted it there (shew)
<sbalneav> Well, currenly, we only have 3 members
<Nubae> hmmm......so whats difference between CC and EC
<highvoltage> Nubae: EC is edubuntu-specific, it's a delegated team of the CC
<sbalneav> since LaserJock's dropping out, and I replace him, that still leaves 2 people who should apply.
<stgraber> Nubae: CC is Community Council, so for Ubuntu
<stgraber> Nubae: EC is Edubuntu Council, so for Edubuntu
<highvoltage> Nubae: although in Edubuntu, the EC also oversees technical aspects of the system and the project
<stgraber> and the CC owns the EC
<sbalneav> Personally, I'd vote for both Nubae and alkisg for long term and sustained contributions.
<stgraber> so we can't change our members without going through them for approval and organization of the elections
 * alkisg will be around in education & ubuntu for a long, long time, but I'm not actually using the edubuntu DVD in my classrooms :(
<Nubae> so for CC basically
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I think alkisg is already a member isn't he?
 * highvoltage checks
<alkisg> I'm an edubuntu member
<jbicha> so if Nubae gets elected to the EC, then he should automatically be an Edubuntu Member, right? hmm...
<sbalneav> alkisg: right, but you may at some point.
 * Nubae slaps alkisg with a fidsh
<Nubae> so for CC basically)
<alkisg> I hope so :)
<stgraber> let me have a quick look through my mails
<sbalneav> Currently, the way I see it, we've got 5 "regulars"
<Nubae> ah, hence the push for motu
<Nubae> righto
<stgraber> I know I have somewhere the exact process of who can apply and who can vote
<sbalneav> sbalneav, stgraber, highvoltage, Nubae, and alkisg
<stgraber> (as approved by the CC)
<sbalneav> with jbicha making a strong showing recently
<stgraber> "We figured that there's no harm in making nominations open to a broader
<stgraber> > group of people (~ubuntu-members), although the potential nominees would
<stgraber> > be ~edubuntu-members (which is admittedly still a relative small group)."
<stgraber> so that basically means you need to be at least an Ubuntu member to apply for EC (or be proposed), if you are only an Ubuntu member, you'll automatically be granted Edubuntu membership
<Nubae> qfunk recently became motu
 * highvoltage saw that
<Nubae> but he hasnt been so active in edubuntu
<alkisg> Is MOTUship a requirement for EC members? Why do we keep mentioning it?
<highvoltage> Nubae: yep we could perhaps try to pull him in :)
<Nubae> since his beef with arctec
<Nubae> yeah
<stgraber> alkisg: nope, but Ubuntu membership is
<highvoltage> alkisg: not at all, but at least some technical background is highly beneficial
<jbicha> ah, chicken and egg, Nubae can't be EC unless he's EM first but he can't be EM because we don't have enough in the EC unless we get LaserJock to assist
<highvoltage> alkisg: especially since some technical role will be expected
<alkisg> jbicha: ah, I got it, thanks :)
<highvoltage> jbicha: yes that's why we need to fix up the EC asap
<highvoltage> jbicha: *but*, he could still potentially become a member in time
<Nubae> I'd also push for hilton to be involved somehow
<alkisg> highvoltage: sure, I don't suppose someone will apply for EC membership and not have technical experience...
<Nubae> he's got quite a vested interest
<highvoltage> stgraber: jordan said that he's still available as EC member until the new council is elected right?
<stgraber> highvoltage: yes
<Nubae> then there's ahmuck who has been around for a while
<alkisg> I don't think Ahmuch is focuced in edubuntu
<highvoltage> stgraber: so technically we could still have an EC now or tomorrow?
<alkisg> He's looking around for alternatives...
<Nubae> ah ok
<stgraber> highvoltage: yes
<Nubae> jonny
<highvoltage> I pinged him on jabber now, although his status says away
<sbalneav> Well, if the ec can get together, and grant Nubae his edubuntu-membership
<Nubae> hes more gentoo I guess
<sbalneav> that would clear the way to alkisg and Nubae becoming ec
<highvoltage> Nubae, alkisg: I suggest you get your membership applications up to shape, we may be able to do an impromptu meeting or even do it over mailing lists
<alkisg> Maybe I could join the EC (as I'm already an edubuntu member), and then vote for nubae :)
<stgraber> right, we'll then have sbalneav, alkisg and Nubae propose themselves for EC membership, then Edubuntu members can vote and that's it
<highvoltage> alkisg: sorry, not aimed at you, you're already a member :)
<stgraber> knowing that Edubuntu members is pretty much the future EC as we discuss it at the moment ;)
<Nubae> ok ok, so practically, what needs to be done?
<stgraber> Nubae: good wikipage will help
<highvoltage> Nubae: do you have an application page on your wiki namespace?
<Nubae> ummm... wiki page?
<Nubae> I have nubae.com
<alkisg> Nubae: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlkisGeorgopoulos
<Nubae> and my launchpad page
<Nubae> my sugar memebership page....
<Nubae> ah thanks alkisg
<Nubae> I shall innovate on yours
<alkisg> Nubae: see also other people's pages, e.g. stgraber's, laserjock's etc
<highvoltage> Nubae: see Preperation on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<Nubae> kinda like a linked in page but for ubuntu
<highvoltage> yep, it's basically a page with your history and recommendations, so very much like a linkedin page
<highvoltage> Nubae: feel free to also link to your linkedin page if you want
<highvoltage> are we fine with scheduling the nomination period for next week?
 * stgraber is
<highvoltage> or do we want to allow more time to make sure that we can approve some members who want to stand for EC?
<highvoltage> s/approve/review/ :)
<stgraber> ;)
<stgraber> I'd really like to have that going for next week
<highvoltage> I guess, worst case scenario we could do it by e-mail, so we should be able to do it
<stgraber> as I'll be presenting Edubuntu at UDS
<highvoltage> I'm also in favour of getting it rolling for next week
 * alkisg thinks a week is more than enough for any preperation needed...
<stgraber> and want to show a well working community
<highvoltage> indeed, ok so that's done then, nominations will start next week
<highvoltage> shall we move on?
<Nubae> yep
<Nubae> I'll have my wiki page up in next couple days
<highvoltage> ok, Luanchpad teams...
<highvoltage> we had a whole lot of LP teams owned by lots of different people
<jbicha> Nubae: this might be helpful too: http://blogs.ubuntu-nl.org/dennis/2009/05/13/how-to-become-an-ubuntu-member-the-easy-way/
<highvoltage> one moment please... I have LaserJock on jabber
<stgraber> I'll be discussing with highvoltage for the exact course of actions for EC nominations, you'll get an e-mail about it on all edubuntu mailing lists and fridge probably tomorrow
<stgraber> (we'll need to go through the exact process we agreed on with the community council)
<stgraber> jbicha: becoming an edubuntu member or a regular member is quite different
<Nubae> sounds good
<highvoltage> ok LP teams can wait
<stgraber> I'm both a EC member and a membership approval board member and I don't really look at the same things depending on if you apply for Ubuntu or Edubuntu membership
<stgraber> usually I know Edubuntu contributors a lot better than the guys I have to review for Ubuntu membership
<Nubae> hi  LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi Nubae
<stgraber> hi Jordan !
<jbicha> stgraber: right, the path is different but the end result is similar (although with the archive reorg...)
<highvoltage> thanks for coming LaserJock
<LaserJock> you caught me at a good time, just got back from a late lunch
 * highvoltage hits the EC meeting gong *GONG*
<stgraber> yeah !! :)
<LaserJock> agenda?
<highvoltage> Nubae: you're name is up on the agenda for membership (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda)
<stgraber> Nubae is pretty much the agenda ;)
<highvoltage> stgraber: well, for membership yes
<highvoltage> LaserJock: we've been having an edubuntu meeting the last 45 minutes, we've discussed UDS Lucid and the EC elections already
<LaserJock> oh, ok
<highvoltage> Nubae: are you still here?
<sbalneav> Nubae: awake awake fire foes awake!
<Nubae> yeah sorry
<highvoltage> Nubae: tell us about yourself and your involvement with Edubuntu
<Nubae> yah hit me with your rythm stick
<highvoltage> (and links to your wiki/web/etc pages would also be nice)
<stgraber> https://edge.launchpad.net/~dvanassche
<Nubae> well, I've cleaned up the edubuntu page bit, wiriting a little about every app availble on the current distros
<Nubae> I also suggested which ones should be (universe based) on the DVD
<Nubae> helped with release (website)
<Nubae> gosh...  wrote a lot of LTSP handbook
<alkisg> I think mentioning your current occupation would also be of interest...
<sbalneav> Several chapters were Nubae's work.
<Nubae> wrote little edu app called pyqclic
<highvoltage> Nubae: I know where you work but it's best to tell us anyway, we make a formal decision based on your input so it's best to explain it to us as if we didn't know you
<Nubae> ah... wwell, was until recently working for guadalinex-edu largest edu distro in the world
<Nubae> I did leave this position willingly though
<Nubae> as it was far too beaurocratic
<Nubae>  basically, loads of paper work
 * dinda facepalms having totally forgot this meeting
<LaserJock> any bug or packaging work in Ubuntu?
<Nubae> and I would be luck if what I documentd went to the rooad
<highvoltage> Nubae: you said that you'd like to apply for EC if your ubuntu-membership is granted, you will have to deal with some beaurocracy as well then
<Nubae> well, bugs yes, packaging outside ubuntu, never officially
<dinda> highvoltage: can I catch you folks up on some news in #edubuntu after this meeting?
<highvoltage> dinda: yep
<stgraber> dinda: sure
<highvoltage> Nubae: are you fine with dealing with some beaurocracy?
<Nubae> this is a different kind of beurocrac
<LaserJock> Nubae: what are your plans for Edubuntu 10.04?
<dinda> great, give me a few minutes to read the log and will meet you folks over there in a bit
<Nubae> what I meant was that basically the great ideas we had wÃ§ere never gonna see the light
<highvoltage> Nubae: ok
<highvoltage> Nubae: if not for 10.04, what is your future plans for Edubuntu?
<Nubae> i dont mind paper work
<Nubae> no problem with it
<highvoltage> or what would you like to see happening in Edubuntu?
<Nubae> but I like to see movement
<Nubae> well, for one I think we can make great use of the underlying telepathy layer
<Nubae> the ways are too many to tell
<Nubae> but in immedidate future mkaing the meta package of universe edu apps we kinda tested would be nice
<Nubae> to grow edubuntu give it some cred
<highvoltage> Nubae: what brings you to education?
<Nubae> I believe everyone should have the same right to an education no matter their race, color, sex, or whatever
<Nubae> basically it should be free
<Nubae> and it is THE way we will make a better world
<Nubae> a laptop in ever childs hands would be a wonderful thing
<Nubae> and it may still happen in our lifetimes
<Nubae> its one thing we can dare be idealist about
<alkisg> What are you currently working on? pyclic?
<alkisg> sugar?
<LaserJock> Nubae: you sort of took a break for Karmic and were doing quite a bit of work with openSUSE Education, what do you think Edubuntu could learn from that project?
<Nubae> well, pyclic started off as a simple point and click on an image quiz
<highvoltage> Nubae: you mentioned that you have core-dev like status at opensuse, would you be interested in doing anything that could bridge our relationship with opensuse and do some possible collaboration?
<Nubae> but input from others has turned it into a quiz fora while subject with a range of different types of questions
<Nubae> I'd like to make it compatible with moodle
<Nubae> well, opensuse build service is amazing
<Nubae> and if we can somehow use that
<Nubae> and suse studio
<Nubae> to lighten our work load that would be great
<Nubae> I havent studied to what extent that is possible, but cyberorg keeps trying to convince me that its all possible
<highvoltage> yeah we probably won't ever use that, for edubuntu's purposes canonical's build servers are more than sufficient
<Nubae> u mean bulld service or suse studio?
<highvoltage> both
<LaserJock> probably either/both
<highvoltage> Nubae: if we build packages in their buildd it won't be in the ubuntu archives, that would be kind of pointless
<Nubae> ok cool, u dont want me to study the possibility?
<Nubae> well, sure, u can link it to wherever u like
<LaserJock> Nubae: if you had to be the "leader" of any area in Edubuntu (art, docs, QA, .iso building, etc.) what would you most likely be interested in
<highvoltage> Nubae: canonical won't host images that we built elsewhere, and reasonably so, so that's not really an option for us either
<Nubae> right but obs is open source
<Nubae> we can take it and stick it on uuntu servers
<LaserJock> Nubae: right, but we've already got package and .iso builders that work very well
<stgraber> everythings that's part of Edubuntu must be built on Canonical's buildds and signed by the archive gpg key that's only available on Canonical's buildds
<LaserJock> in terms of Edubuntu
<LaserJock> anyway, that's a tad off-topic I think
<stgraber> though it probably can be useful to some of our users for their own homemade distro
<Nubae> ok, how does that stop us using obs to build debs on ubuntu servers signed with ubuntu keys?
<Nubae> anyway, perhaps it deserves some research?
<Nubae> or should we disregard it
<Nubae> I'm just asking
<stgraber> because the ubuntu key is only available inside Canonical's DC, so any binary compiled outside of it can't ever enter the archive
<highvoltage> Nubae: I think it's best to make the OpenSUSE build system(s) a seperate discussion
<stgraber> highvoltage: +1
<Nubae> susestudio is totally different
<highvoltage> Nubae: the short of it is that we can't and won't use it for official builds, we can talk about the details later if you want
<Nubae> it basically allows u to create a distro by pointing and clicking
<Nubae> probably not of interest
<Nubae> outside being a curiosity
<LaserJock> susestudio might be a possibility but seems like a huge maintenance burden
<highvoltage> also, I think as stgraber said, it could perhaps be useful for custom edubuntu spins
<Nubae> oh... but ONE area where we really DO wnat collaboration is linux-for-education.org
<Nubae> in fact I've put 2 ubuntu specific moodle courses up there
<Nubae> its totally distro agnostic
<LaserJock> perhaps it would be useful to collaborate with the Ubuntu Learning Project on that
<highvoltage> Nubae: I'd like some expansion on a question I asked you earlier, do you think there's scope for collaboration between edubuntu and opensuse-edu?
<highvoltage> Nubae: and would you be willing to drive some of that?
<Nubae> and really the only way to get a place with large amounts of lesson plans i by doing this together
<Nubae> well, I already do pretty much all of linux-for-education.org sadly, though slowly people are coming on board.... but would be great to get some more courses on there... the 2 edubuntu ones we have up there are
<Nubae> the perfect edubuntu deesktop
<Nubae> and jazzing up your deesktop
<Nubae> but I duuno how to drive more people to it?
<highvoltage> Nubae: I asked about edubuntu and opensuse-edu, not linux-for-education ;)
<Nubae> there are about 8-9 sugar courses, and loads of open source stuff
<Nubae> well, that is kind of the combination of the 2 in lesson plan format
<Nubae> what do u mean more specifically?
<LaserJock> technology wise, process wise, community wise
<highvoltage> Nubae: part of edubuntu is that we want to extend to similar projects and work on common problems together
<dinda> Nubae:  the ubuntu learning project is doing similar stuff to the linux-for-education site, could your courses be housed in both places?
<Nubae> ok, tech, we spoke about... basically we wanna go our own way mostly right?
<highvoltage> Nubae: is opensuse-edu open to collaborate on common things?
<Nubae> dinda, absolutely
<highvoltage> Nubae: for build services, etc, yes.
<Nubae> highvoltage, very much so
<mhall119|work> dinda: I spoke to pleia2 about that
<mhall119|work> combining linux-for-education and ubuntu-learning
<Nubae> I think working on something that involves telepathy together would be cool
<mhall119|work> she says as long as the license is compatible, then it's golden
<Nubae> i dont know what yet, but some kinda of authentication system
<highvoltage> I have no further questions
<Nubae> something that would be like ldap, but easier
<stgraber> I'm good too, thanks highvoltage for asking all the questions ;)
<LaserJock> Nubae: so what made you come "back" to Edubuntu?
<Nubae> and involve more services
<Nubae> its not that I ever left
<Nubae> its just that I discovered build service
<Nubae> became sugar maintainer for opensuse
<Nubae> etc
<Nubae> but I've always been on this channel
<LaserJock> but your last significant technical contribution was over 6 months ago
<LaserJock> how will that change?
<mhall119|work> Nubae: ubuntu-learning wants to start producing moodle courses, so those could be included into linux-for-education
<mhall119|work> sorry if I'm interrupting
<highvoltage> apologies accepted, you can talk about that after the EC section ;)
<Nubae> LaserJock, the 2 moodle courses I made specifically for linux-for-education.org was about a month aho
<Nubae> ago
<Nubae> ok, its not direct, but its really just for edubuntu
<LaserJock> highvoltage, stgraber: you guys ready?
<Nubae> also pyqclic is being developed on ubuntu
<Nubae> i wouldnt even know if it works on suse
<stgraber> LaserJock: yes
<highvoltage> I am
<LaserJock> k, I'm ready then
<Nubae> by the way pyqclic is ready for anyone to see use at the sugar git repos, though I wanna really expand it to be the quiz tool for subjects of choice
<highvoltage> +1 on the grounds that he's been involved for so long and that he'll probably be for a long time still, and for his passion and commitment to the cause
<sbalneav> Nubae: you know git?
<Nubae> have ta.... its required for sugar
<sbalneav> good, you can help me in a bit.
<Nubae> git push git pull git
<Nubae> k
<stgraber> +1 for being around for a long time, helping with LTSP and commitment to helping education with linux
<Nubae> mhall119|work, would be good for us to just mirror whatever is on each one
<LaserJock> +1 , based on past contributions and the confidence of future ones. Please don't prove me wrong.
<highvoltage> Nubae: congrats that'
<stgraber> congrats and welcome aboard
<highvoltage> Nubae: congrats that's 3/3! Welcome!
 * Nubae goes to the corner store and gets wasted and says "suckers"
<Nubae> :-)
<dinda> Nubae: congrats!
<Nubae> that was more for LaserJock
<mhall119|work> Nubae: is there any way to automagically replicate moodle courses?
<sbalneav> \o/ Nubae
<Nubae> let me check there must be
<alkisg>  Welcome on board Nubae :) (not that you weren't already...)
<Nubae> sbalneav, what git work do u need?
<dinda> mhall119|work: yes, they're pretty easy to export/import across Moodle servers
<Nubae> kiind thanks for all the kind words
<mhall119|work> dinda: is that manual?  or is there a way to automate it?
<dinda> mhall119|work: I've done it manually as we have 2 servers; one for testing and another for production
<highvoltage> ok that concludes the EC part of the meeting
<dinda> mhall119|work: but I'd imagine some scripting could be done
<sbalneav> Nubae: in edubuntu
<highvoltage> == Launchpad Teams ==
<highvoltage> we had plenty of unmaintained LP teams
<highvoltage> today we changed most of the teams so that they belong to ~edubuntu-council
<highvoltage> and the ~edubuntu-council team now belongs to the ~community-council
<highvoltage> there are one or two teams that we're still trying to contact the owner so that they can hand it over, otherwise we'll just do it through an LP contact
<Nubae> oh thats great news
<highvoltage> the edubuntu-testers team is now disbanded- the testing effort will now be done with the ubuntu-qa team
<Nubae> thats been a pain in the backside for ever
<highvoltage> Nubae: indeed
<highvoltage> == Edubuntu-members Proposed Members List ==
<jbicha> ooh, and that has the neat advantage that all of the groups are listed on 1 page: https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-council
<highvoltage> jbicha: yes! :)
<highvoltage> on https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-members quite a long list of pending members
<highvoltage> we've had the problem that some people who really wanted to apply didn't understand the process and never added themselves to the agenda
<jbicha> what about the edubuntu-bugs team?
<highvoltage> others didn't understand and just thought it is a group they can join to show support for Edubuntu
<mhall119|work> I think I tried to join the LP group before I realized it was moderated
<highvoltage> jbicha: we'll probably get ogra to hand it to the ec group
<jbicha> & Launchpad doesn't allow you to unrequest joining :-(
<highvoltage> yes, we need to explain what Edubuntu and Ubuntu membership is more clearly
<highvoltage> post it to the list and have it somewhere easy to find on the site
<mhall119|work> you can reject my request if you can
<highvoltage> additionally, we'll have a generic group that we allow anyone to join to show that they're involved with edubuntu
<mhall119|work> I'll re-apply when I've done something
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: we'll do that for now
<highvoltage> the plan is to reject all current requests with a link to a page that explains membership and the process
<LaserJock> highvoltage: remember there is the ~edubuntu team
<mhall119|work> I'm going for my Ubuntu Membership next week
<highvoltage> LaserJock: yes that's the team that would be used
<LaserJock> my guess is that could hold everybody
<highvoltage> that's also some cause of applicants, some people apply to two councils
<highvoltage> so they get approved in one and their application to the other lingers
<mhall119|work> well I know now that I don't qualify for Edubuntu membership (yet)
<highvoltage> so by cleaning up our list we'll be more able to handle new requests better
<jbicha> I thought edubuntu-users was the generic group
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: how do you know that? :)
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: because I haven't contributed anything to Edubuntu (yet)
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: and if so, why would you then apply for ubuntu membership? the requirements are the same
<jbicha> but the confusion's part of the problem
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: I have contributed to Ubuntu and my LoCo
<mhall119|work> outside of Qimo, I've done a lot of advocacy and community work
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yep that would certainly cound, and qimo in itself as well
<highvoltage> any questions on the LP teams?
<highvoltage> (or comments, etc)
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: nhandler said that my Qimo work may not mean as much, since it's not technically Ubuntu
<LaserJock> I believe we've always used Edubuntu Membership = Ubuntu Membership + Edubuntu interest
<jbicha> mhall119|work: oh, you're the Qimo guy! well, you should definitely get an application ready
<mhall119|work> jbicha: it is ready
<mhall119|work> just waiting for the 18th to roll around
<LaserJock> highvoltage: what about LP teams that aren't "official" but are in the namespace?
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: once I have Qimo packages for Edubuntu, I'll apply here as well
<Nubae> I kinda see the qimo work as competing with edubuntu
<Nubae> it would be better to join the efforts
<mhall119|work> Nubae: not at all
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: I would recognise it, considering that you're doing something to get the ubuntu and education combination out there
<mhall119|work> Nubae: that's the plan, I just haven't been able to put Qimo into a contributable package
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: and qimo has had great publicity and reviews, I'd think it would be very unfair not to give it credit
<Nubae> yeah, we coudl call it edubuntu qimo though
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: he didn't say there wouldn't be credit, just that it wouldn't be the same as contributing directly to Ubuntu projects
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yeah once you've got either membership you can get the other for 'free'
<Nubae> like the preschool version of edubuntu or soemthing
<mhall119|work> Nubae: the goal is to provide the Qimo desktop as a profile in Edubuntu, I think
<Nubae> well not preschool
<jbicha> what's special about the 18th?
<Nubae> u know wht I mean
<highvoltage> LaserJock: stgraber and I looked at the other teams and they were mostly loco-type teams, we think it's safe to more or less let them be
<mhall119|work> jbicha: that's the next Americas board meeting
<LaserJock> and my birthday!
<mhall119|work> that too
<jbicha> haha
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yes indeed, Qimo could provide a pre-school desktop for edubuntu
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: as long as you don't mind the dependency on XFCE
<mhall119|work> though with Sabayon, we could probably re-create it with Gnome
<mhall119|work> I'm not sure exactly how that works
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: I think it will add about 200MB to the DVD, besides that I don't think there are any issues adding it as optional packages
<mhall119|work> ok
<Nubae> no, it adds to it...
<Nubae> definetly a + an lets people know
<Nubae> we work together
<Nubae> not competing distros
<mhall119|work> Nubae: I never wanted to compete
<Nubae> yeah unfortunately it kinda comes across that way like this other distro I keep forgetting the name of
<Nubae> german/austrian
<mhall119|work> Guadex or something like that?
<highvoltage> We might have to get permission from some Canonical marketing people, etc... but from my side I'm completely happy providing links to any other educational distro from the edubuntu.org site
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: Guadalinex-edu
<Nubae> hehehe, no
<mhall119|work> Nubae: the reason I didn't just use Edubuntu from the get-go was because I needed a light-weight LiveCD distro
<Nubae> preschool design
<Nubae> terrible
<highvoltage> we're actually done with the items on the agenda
<highvoltage> let's move to #edubuntu
<mhall119|work> oh, heh, I didn't realize we weren't
<Nubae> ok
<highvoltage> thanks everyone
<jbicha> haha
<highvoltage> *meeting-done-gong*
<jbicha> good night all!
<highvoltage> goodnight jbicha
<stgraber> thanks
<alkisg> Bye all
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-13
<dholbach> soren, jpds, nhandler, nixternal, persia: around?
<soren> dholbach: Honestly, yes. But very, very much on my way to bed.
<dholbach> hey geser
 * soren has been on the road for 22 hours.. Needs sleep.
<dholbach> right :)
 * ScottK needs to get to bed too, so let's make this quick ....
 * dholbach texts jpds
<soren> I haven't a coherent thought in my head, so I'll spare you all my nonsense, and go to bed. G'night, all.
<diwic> soren: Just vote "yes" for me first ;-)
<soren> What is this meeting anyway?
<soren> I thought it was a "Thursday afternoon" week.
<dholbach> MC
<maco> soren: thats 4th week
<soren> Not a "Friday morning" week.
<soren> Ah.
<dholbach> is Scott Howard here?
<dholbach> dobey does not seem to be around
<nixternal> yo yo
<dholbach> hey nixternal!
<nixternal> howdy!
<maco> hi nixternal
<dholbach> I texted jpds and he said he'd definitely be there and persia, too, said he had no trouble making the meeting
<persia> Indeed, I didn't
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> persia, nixternal, geser: anybody of you wants to drive the meeting today?
<persia> I'll drive
<persia> #startmeeting
<dholbach> super
<MootBot> Meeting started at 01:02. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
<persia> [TOPIC] MOTU Application of Mackenzie Morgan (maco)
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application of Mackenzie Morgan (maco)
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacoMorgan/MOTUApp
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacoMorgan/MOTUApp
<maco> hi
<persia> maco: So, how do you feel about your application?
<maco> Was scared a bit ago because I hadn't done a merge before and figured that was an automatic "no" but I just did one (ScottK uploaded it)
<nixternal> lol
<maco> so slightly less scared now ;)
<ScottK> (it built on all archs, btw)
<nixternal> you went from low hanging fruit right into the storm of packaging :)
<dholbach> maco seems to be a pragmatic problem solver :)
<persia> maco: Well, that's related to my first question: https://launchpad.net/~maco.m/+related-software doesn't seem to have as many entries as we sometimes see.  Have you been working more in depth in areas, or are your contributions often found elsewhere?
<dholbach> maco: which of the patches you worked on you enjoyed the most?
<maco> persia: there were a handful of patches that instead of being done as individual debdiffs, Riddell took and merged into bzr then generated uploads with them rolled in
<dholbach> (it wouldn't be the first time when the /+related-software page is lying :-))
 * ScottK can +1 maco's involvement with patches for Kubuntu.
<dholbach> maco: which of the patches you worked on you enjoyed the most?
<persia> (no +related-software lies a lot, which is why I ask)
<nixternal> maco: my question is this, how come you haven't done any merges until just now? have you done any sync requests? why did you decide to merge aoetools, and how did you fix the conflict in regards to aoetools.init?
<maco> dholbach: sorry, mouse went fubar so im navigating firefox with the tab key ;)
 * nixternal can +1 maco's Kubuntu patches as well, as well as her upstream KDE patches
<dholbach> persia: alright :)
<maco> nixternal: i was going to try a merge a couple weeks ago but i didnt claim it in advance and someone else uploaded it before me, then i got busy with school
<nixternal> persia: quite a bit of her packaging work gets merged into larger commits within Kubuntu where the ol' [Maco] tag doesn't cut it in the changelog
<maco> dholbach: oh gjiten was a fun one to figure out
<persia> nixternal: I figured: from what I can tell, quite a lot of Kubuntu work in general happens that way
<nixternal> that list should also include pretty much all of the major kde base packages
<maco> yeah kate, kdepim, -workspace....
<maco> nixternal: and why aoetools was because i was talking to stevenk and said it was my first one and he suggested that would be a not-too-evil one for a first-try
<dholbach> maco: looking back at your "motu journey", what should have been easier?
<maco> is quilt a fair answer?
<diwic> maco: +1 lol
<maco> last uds i decided "no applying to motu til i can use quilt"
<dholbach> maco: totally agreed - anything else?
<nixternal> heh, I still use my quilt cheat sheet every time I use quilt :)
<ajmitch> don't we all?
<nixternal> probably
<persia> maco: You say that you'd like to work to improve integration between gtk-based packages and KDE (or, possibly Qt-based packages and GNOME).  What specific areas do you think are in most need of improement for this integration?
<maco> persia: occasionally different services stomp on each other. the most annoying one i recall was gpg-agent and seahorse-agent getting mixed up and preventing signing emails in kmail in kde. switching from evolution to kontact could certainly be *much* easier though, so i'd kind of like to work on a script or something to make such importing easier
<nixternal> I can say that I have uploaded patches and what not for Kubuntu and I believe KDE as well for maco and have yet to have a problem...everything has been good work, though like everyone else, she could be a bit more confident in herself, but at the same time, her cautious ways have helped her create uploadable patches/packages on the first time
<maco> dholbach: documentation. i bug ScottK a *lot* with questions
<nixternal> and me :p
<nixternal> well, I have been gone a bit, so that helps :D
<dholbach> maco: then we should definitely start taking notes of what questions get asked mostly
 * dholbach doesn't have any more questions
<nixternal> dholbach: mutt and search helps with that as well :)
<persia> ScottK: You say in your endorsement that you've discussed a number of things with maco that you didn't end up sponsoring.  Were these instances of questions asked, or instances of stuff in the sponsorship queue that was not yet ready to upload?
<ScottK> persia: Questions along the way.
<nixternal> probably cuz ScottK would point then run like he does sometimes :)
<ScottK> Probably.
<ScottK> Busy doing stuff that nixternal had promised and not done.
<persia> geser: soren nixternal more questions?
 * nixternal notes "the teenager is playing with my laptop again" is getting old as an excuse :p
<nixternal> persia: I am good
<nixternal> ScottK: damn, I tried to not use that excuse :)
<geser> no questions
 * persia decides to trust soren> I haven't a coherent thought in my head, so I'll spare you all my nonsense, and go to bed. G'night, all.
<nixternal> heh, g'nite persia
<persia> [VOTE] Mackenzie Morgan to become MOTU
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Mackenzie Morgan to become MOTU.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<dholbach> congratulations maco! welcome to the team! :)
<maco> :D
<maco> yay thank you!
<ScottK> maco: Congrat
<nixternal> congrats maco and welcome! now get to merging!
<ScottK> s
<wgrant> maco: Congrats.
<maco> nixternal: hehe or sponsoring?
 * maco hugs everybody
 * persia doesn't see dobey about
<jussi01> congrats maco!
 * dholbach hugs maco back
<persia> [TOPIC] MOTU Application of Charlie Smotherman (porthose)
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application of Charlie Smotherman (porthose)
<dholbach> persia: Per-package upload, iirc
<dholbach> "I, Charlie Smotherman, apply for upload rights for packages Quickplay, Upnp-Inspector and Pylirc."
<persia> Err, right
<dholbach> but let's move on :)
<dholbach> porthose_: around? :)
<persia> [TOPIC] PPU Application of Charlie Smotherman (porthose)
<MootBot> New Topic:  PPU Application of Charlie Smotherman (porthose)
<porthose_> hello MC :)
<dholbach> hey porthose_, how are you doing?
<porthose_> great yourself
 * nixternal likes porthose_'s app, I always think of "Meet the Fockers"
<dholbach> porthose_: a bit tired to be honest :)
<dholbach> but alright
<dholbach> porthose_: don't you have upload rights for some packages already?
<porthose_> me to really late here
<porthose_> yes coherence, ampache and ampache-themes
<persia> Yeah, I'm also trying to dig up the records for the last time.
<porthose_> quickplay, upnp-inspector and pylirc are additional packages I maintain or co-maintain in debian :)
<dholbach> porthose_: this question is not meant to be super-serious but what is your threshold for applying for motu instead of getting more upload rights for specific packages? :-)
<persia> porthose_: You seem to be active with quite a number of other packagse as well, based on https://launchpad.net/~cjsmo/+related-software
 * nixternal was just wondering the same as dholbach 
<porthose_> I was going to see how thing go in lucid and then maybe apply :) Unless I should now?
<persia> porthose_: Well, tell us your reasoning, and we'll let you know :)
<persia> porthose_: To put that differently, what do you think you need to do to apply for MOTU?
<porthose_> I feel more confident with my own packages and not so much with other peoples
<persia> How do you feel about other people changing the packages you describe as "my own packages"?
<porthose_> persia, I don't mind if other improve the packages I care for
<porthose_> s/other/others
<dholbach> porthose_: do you have plans for caring for more packages? anything you're looking at right now?
<porthose_> Yes, I have been conversing with the upstream of buddi, and thinking of possible packaging it :)
<persia> porthose_: And do you expect that more packages will end up needing a bit of help in your work on the packages you pay attention to now?
<porthose_> persia, I have been taking on packages only when I am confident I have time to care for it.  I try not to let any of the other packages I care for to be neglected
<persia> Well, I'm done with questions for a PPU application.
<persia> dholbach: nixternal geser ?
<dholbach> porthose_: anything that you still find difficult or what makes you less confident with some packages?
<nixternal> I don't have any questions relating to technical stuff since I am confident porthose_ knows what he is doing, and the questions dholbach and persia asked reflected my thoughts already
<dholbach> (anything specific you can think of?)
<geser> no questions which hasn't been asked already
<porthose_> dholbach, I still find merges a bit difficult, but I am working on them
<dholbach> they can get hairy, but it's good you're pushing yourself "out there" :)
<dholbach> that's it from me, done with questions
<porthose_> :)
<persia> [VOTE] Recommend Charlie Smotherman (porthose) for PPU rights to quickplay, upnp-inspector, and pylirc
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Recommend Charlie Smotherman (porthose) for PPU rights to quickplay, upnp-inspector, and pylirc.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<dholbach> congratulations porthose_! :)
<porthose_> Thank you MC  :)
<persia> porthose_: I do hope we'll see an application with a wider scope next time :)  Just asking for uploads to stuff you maintain in Debian when you're otherwise so active in Ubuntu seems hardly worth a meeting.
<nixternal> congrats again porthose_ :)
<persia> [TOPIC] Contributing Developer application for David Henningsson (diwic)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Contributing Developer application for David Henningsson (diwic)
<porthose_> persia, My next application will be for MOTU
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Diwic/DeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Diwic/DeveloperApplication
<diwic> good morning
<dholbach> hey diwic, how are you?
<persia> diwic: Good morning.  How do you feel about your application today?
<diwic> dholbach: Compared to others in here, I'm alert, sharp, and ready for a new day :-)
<diwic> persia: It feels good
<diwic> persia: I was happy to get good sponsor comments
<dholbach> diwic: I just had a brief look at the work you've been doing - I'm happy you like messing around with the audio world... what's still the biggest problems for you personally three?
<diwic> dholbach: personally? Well, I still have things to learn to get to know the audio stack in detail, so I can fix the really hard bugs.
<dholbach> sure, so there's nothing particular you're staring at... audio-wise... now? :)
<diwic> dholbach: hmm...I have almost finished https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingSoundProblems/KarmicCaveats and in the weekend I'm planning to write an apport hook for audacity
<dholbach> diwic: nice
 * dholbach 's done with questions
<persia> diwic: Other than bug and development work, do you contribute to Ubuntu in other ways?
<nixternal> diwic: you state you have 1/2 things in fluidsynth in Debian that needs to be fixed..have you fixed them yet? if not, how long have they gone unfixed and why haven't they been fixed yet?
<diwic> nixternal: one of them will be fixed with the next release of FluidSynth, which is underway
<diwic> nixternal: the other one is a release to Debian stable so it feels a bit scary ;-)
<diwic> persia: that would be a little documentation perhaps, but mostly bug and development work
<nixternal> I have no more questions...great feedback!
<persia> geser: ?
<diwic> persia: I'm also answer contact for audacity / fluidsynth / qarecord
<nixternal> just returned from my heart attack....a damn audio file I clicked on about an hour ago started playing with the speakers cranked
<geser> still no questions
<nixternal> i love it when that happens, all troubleshooting skills go out the window as you look around dumbfounded trying to figure out what the hell to do first
<persia> [VOTE] David Henningsson [diwic] to become a Contributing Developer
<MootBot> Please vote on:  David Henningsson [diwic] to become a Contributing Developer.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nixternal> congrats diwic \o/
<dholbach> congratulations diwic! :-)
<diwic> thanks! :-)
<persia> Anyone have anything else we need to consider today?
<dholbach> Is there any Rodney Dawes or Scott Howard here?
 * diwic hugs everybody
<dholbach> then I guess we should
<dholbach>  * Decide who is going to Updating process approved applications.
<dholbach>  * Update MOTU/Headers/NextMCMeeting.
<dholbach>  * Update our team report: MOTU/Council/TeamReport
<dholbach> :-)
<nixternal> dholbach: that is under fixed items
<persia> Yes, but that's what we do at the end :)
<persia> So,
<maco> diwic: congrats :)
<persia> [TOPIC] Decide who is going to Updating process approved applications.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Decide who is going to Updating process approved applications.
<persia> Any volunteers?
 * nixternal notes it is 02:01 here and is going to go to bed
 * dholbach can do it
<persia> dholbach: Thanks!
<persia> [TOPIC] Update MOTU/Headers/NextMCMeeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update MOTU/Headers/NextMCMeeting.
<persia> I'll do this one
<persia> [TOPIC] Update our team report: MOTU/Council/TeamReport
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update our team report: MOTU/Council/TeamReport
<persia> anyone?
<dholbach> we should probably add "reference meeting log on MC Meeting page" to the fixed items too
 * dholbach does that
<persia> I've got the page locked :)
<dholbach> can you add it? :)
<persia> Yep, I'm also cleaning up the agenda.
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> I'll take care of the rest
<dholbach> and somebody else does it next time! :)
<persia> I'll do the team report if nobody else wants to, but I'd rather not, as it ought be done when we can link to the emails for the processing.
<persia> Cool!.
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 02:05.
<nixternal> g'nite all and congrats to all of the new members!
<dholbach> nixternal: sleep tight
<diwic> nixternal: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-14
<yamokidzu-it> please can you tell me the web-stite where get the wicd FULL installer from the web
<yamokidzu-it> *sorry the web site
<yamokidzu-it> I need a full wicd installer that doesn't propt for connection
<yamokidzu-it> help please no answer in help channell...
<yamokidzu-it> very sorry wrong channel ;-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-16
 * persia peers about
 * davidm wonders what persia is looking for?
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> bot is laggy this morning
<ogra_ac> roll call ?
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101116
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101116
<NCommander> If your not here, say I
 * ogra_ac added some topics today
<GrueMaster> I
<ogra_ac> the indentation of bullet lists is broken :'-(
<ogra_ac> with the new theme ...
<rsalveti> :-(
 * NCommander didn't notice
<davidm> I am not here
<NCommander> <- *doesn't use the standard theme :-(*
<NCommander> oh good, davidm is not here, we can skip the meeting :-)
 * NCommander runs
<ogra_ac> nah, we cant
 * NCommander pokes persia 
<NCommander> damn it, I was tlaking with him less than an hour ago
<NCommander> meh
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to track down why NCommander's specs aren't on the tracker and to have that fixed
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to track down why NCommander's specs aren't on the tracker and to have that fixed
<NCommander> Resolved. ogra told me I have to have them set for Approved
<ogra_ac> done, davidm needs to approve for natty
<ogra_ac> (i would have done it but i dont have the lever)
<rsalveti> I also have one that I just noticed that needs to be approved for natty
<ogra_ac> approver needs to do it
<rsalveti> davidm: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-arm-gles-in-ubuntu :-)
<rsalveti> didn't got on my list when i send you to approve because asac created it just before uds
<NCommander> davidm: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-userland-subarch-detection & https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-natty-improved-subarch-detection
<NCommander> :-)
<NCommander> anyway
<ogra_ac> userland is fine
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to supervise pre-installed omap4 images for Alpha 1
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to supervise pre-installed omap4 images for Alpha 1
<NCommander> We hav eimages!
 * ogra_ac did that
<NCommander> indeed
<NCommander> nice work :-)
<ogra_ac> yes, but only through an evil hack lool did
<rsalveti> heheh
<NCommander> ogra_ac: there's another type of hack?
<ogra_ac> i hope we can keep it until the bug is fixed
<NCommander> ogra_ac: what's the hack for reference sake?
<ogra_ac> Bug 674146
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 674146 in dpkg (Ubuntu Natty) "dpkg segfaults during debootstrap on natty armel" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674146
<NCommander> ugh
<NCommander> I saw that one
<ogra_ac> yes
<rsalveti> ugly one
<NCommander> that's a hack
<rsalveti> interesting compiler behavior
<ogra_ac> images build now though
<NCommander> x-loader is also FTBFS. I looked at it for a bit but didn't get anywhere
<ogra_ac> NCommander, my job
<davidm> rsajdok, NCommander BP taken care of
<rsalveti> I can help fixing x-loader too
<NCommander> Qt should get resolved sometime this week.
 * NCommander is thorugh most of his email and is just summerizing
<NCommander> so I think we're actually on track to meet alpha 1
<ogra_ac> rsalveti, would you take that, and also re-integrate lools changes to the packaging ?
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: no news from qt with full neon support
<NCommander> (that's a first)
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: sure, np
<ogra_ac> rsalveti, i'll re-upload the static no-NEON build on friday
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: nice
<ogra_ac> ScottK, ^^^^
<rsalveti> unfortunately the neon automatically detection is broken upstream
<ogra_ac> yes
<rsalveti> nobody ever tested it
<ogra_ac> and likely in natty as well
<rsalveti> so it's not something that will be easily backported
<rsalveti> sure
<NCommander> rsalveti: qt has a few growing pains when dealing with various ARM configuraitons.
<ogra_ac> though i hope upstream will have fixed it within natty timeframe
<ogra_ac> what do we do about natty though ?
<rsalveti> NCommander: interesting that nokia pays to be well supported at arm :-)
<ogra_ac> keep it broken or do the same static fix until upstream tells us its fixed ?
<NCommander> rsalveti: no comment.
<ogra_ac> davidm, ^^^ any suggestion ?
<NCommander> ogra_ac: static fix? (I'm blanking on what your referring to)
<ogra_ac> NCommander, read the bug :P
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: for natty I'd say we could go with a similar fix
<rsalveti> we don't have the post release regression on it
<ogra_ac> Bug 664431
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 664431 in qt4-x11 (Ubuntu Maverick) "QT on armel is built with NEON by default" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/664431
<NCommander> oh
<NCommander> that bug
<NCommander> ugh
<ScottK> ogra_ac: Can we publish NEON .debs somewhere for the people wher are using Qt on NEON devices?
<rsalveti> so we're ok to disable it for now, and then enable it as an additional feature
<NCommander> explains why KDE segfaulted on Dove
 * NCommander coughs
<ogra_ac> ScottK, as soon as davidm's PPA spec is implemented we can offer a PPA
<rsalveti> ScottK: I can put it on a ppa and post the link
<ogra_ac> or what rsalveti says
<rsalveti> can get that action
<ogra_ac> ScottK, plan for natty is to have public arm PPAs for everyone
<davidm> The PPA spec is in progress but it's going to take a couple of months to get the hardware all in
<ogra_ac> so you should then just be able to do it yourself
<ogra_ac> davidm, what about neon ?
<ogra_ac> (see above)
<ScottK> ogra_ac: I understand, but I'm concerned about the regression for people with NEON devices running Qt (of which I know there are some).
<ogra_ac> ScottK, yes, understood, rsalveti will do a build in our team PPA and make that public
<ogra_ac> NCommander, action ^^^
<NCommander> davidm: I looked at the spec, and I have some places where I need to make changes, but I need to talk with IS and the LP gearheads to make sure all my ducks are in a row before I'll have the implementation part finalized for you
<ScottK> BTW, my latest Qt build finished in less than 12 hours with three systems sharing the build via icecc.
<NCommander> [action] rsalveti to create NEON enabled Qt build and post it publicly
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rsalveti to create NEON enabled Qt build and post it publicly
<NCommander> ScottK: Qt works great with icecc. OO.o, not so much :-(
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: then lets push the same fix for natty, at least for now
<ogra_ac> gah, i had another point i missed to add to the meeting page
<rsalveti> we'll have more people using it as ac100 is all around
<ogra_ac> rsalveti, yes, i wanted to hear that from davidm
<ogra_ac> :)
<ogra_ac> i think we both agree, but i want some higher authority to blame ;)
<rsalveti> haha :-)
<rsalveti> fair enough
 * NCommander coughs andmoves on
<NCommander> [action] ogra_ac and rsalveti to talk to davidm on proper approach to fix Qt
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra_ac and rsalveti to talk to davidm on proper approach to fix Qt
<NCommander> [topic] Special Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Special Items
<NCommander> [topic] canonical-mobile was completely deleted and replaced by canonical-arm
<MootBot> New Topic:  canonical-mobile was completely deleted and replaced by canonical-arm
<NCommander> why is this on here?
<NCommander> This is the Ubuntu Mobile meeting, not the Canonical ARM one.
<rsalveti> well, we can change ;-)
<NCommander> (incidently, the work item tracker needs to be changed to track ubuntu-armel, and NOT canonical-arm)
<ogra_ac> NCommander, ubuntu-mobile doesnt exist anymore
<NCommander> ogra_ac: so the name of the meeting is an artifact
<NCommander> that can be fixed, its the Ubuntu ARM Meeting now :-P
<ogra_ac> the next two points would have been indended suppoints
<ogra_ac> *sub
<GrueMaster> That's how they appear here.
<ogra_ac> and are the actual bulletpoints
<ogra_ac> GrueMaster, not with the new theme
<NCommander> ogra_ac: some of us have custom themes set
<NCommander> anyway
<davidm> ogra, neon needs to be in libs not hard compiled in
<ogra_ac> davidm, thanks !
<ogra_ac> so: there might be some fallout, please everyone check if i.e. PPA access for important PPAs is missing etc.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: can you look at the bug lists, and make sure we have ubuntu-armel properly subscribed?
<davidm> until there is no hardware that does not support neon that is how it has to be
<NCommander> (it should be in all places, since that team wasn't renamed, but ...)
<ogra_ac> right
<ogra_ac> please everyone check their PPA accresses etc
<ogra_ac> since there might have been team PPAs we could access through canonical-mobile membership
<ogra_ac> if you find anything, please ping me
<ogra_ac> NCommander, action for all ^^^
<NCommander> ogra_ac: wrong venue for ~canonical-mobile/~canonica-arm stuff.
<NCommander> Seriously
<NCommander> [topic] cloosing down of the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
<MootBot> New Topic:  cloosing down of the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
<NCommander> do we have an ubuntu-arm(el) mailing list?
<ogra_ac> no
<lool> ogra_ac: [ Ain't a hack and ain't that evil! ]
<rsalveti> no yet
<ogra_ac> lool, heh
<lool> Just a taste thing
<ogra_ac> we wont have an arm ML
<ogra_ac> doesnt make sense
<ogra_ac> adn with the vanishing of ubuntu-mobile the ML needs to go
<NCommander> lool: I'm guessing evil in France is different than evil in the rest of the world ;-)
<ogra_ac> davidm wants to close it down soon
 * NCommander runs
<rsalveti> why don't we have a m-l?
<rsalveti> I mean, an arm one
<NCommander> ogra_ac: I'd like a mailing list for armel (or at least ports in general)
<davidm> there is virtually no traffic except spam on the ML
<ogra_ac> what for would we need one ?
<NCommander> davidm: well, that and the mailing annoucements
<ogra_ac> we dont have an amd64 one either
<ogra_ac> nora a sparc or hppa one
<NCommander> ogra_ac: cause amd64 is a mainline arch
<davidm> the ubuntu-devel is more then good enough
<NCommander> powerpc has one
<ogra_ac> ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-devel-discuss should serve our needs
<davidm> so?
<NCommander> fair enough
<NCommander> Who's tasked with shooting the u-mobile list dead?
<ogra_ac> davidm
<davidm> I can file the rt ticket to kill it
<ogra_ac> NCommander, just make sure to send the meeting announcements to -desvel now
<NCommander> [action] davidm to archive the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to archive the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
<NCommander> ogra_ac: will do
<ogra_ac> action ?
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to send mailing list annoucements to u-devel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to send mailing list annoucements to u-devel
<ogra_ac> :)
 * NCommander doesn't quite type that fast
<NCommander> :-P
<ogra_ac> btw, i added another bullet point after meeting time
<NCommander> [topic] New meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  New meeting time
<ogra_ac> (please reload wiki if you havent)
<NCommander> Since we've recently had some regulars in this change and/or relocated, I think we should look at moving the metting
<ogra_ac> the metting ;)
<ogra_ac> (mett is chopped meat in german ;) )
<NCommander> (plus those of us on the pacific time or further west have been shafted now for the last 6 months, someone else needs this pain)
<NCommander> I'm proposing we simply move the meeting by 12 hours
 * rsalveti doesn't like that
<ogra_ac> well, lets ask persia
<davidm> NCommander, I recomend we shelf this untl next week
<ogra_ac> 12h ?!?
<NCommander> davidm: fair enough
<ogra_ac> thats 2am in europe
<NCommander> ogra_ac: yeah, that would be 17:00 here
<davidm> And we need to look at all times not a 12 hour shift
<GrueMaster> persia is looking into available timeslots with the idea of being more TI friendly.
 * ogra_ac refuses to have two nightly meetings
<NCommander> right, so here's what we do
<ogra_ac> GrueMaster, TI is mainly Nice nowadays
<GrueMaster> We had a discussion about this last night.
<NCommander> [action] everyone to put proposals of new times (and days) on the wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone to put proposals of new times (and days) on the wiki
<ogra_ac> so it should be european workhours
<NCommander> [action] davidm + persia to get input from TI on recommended times
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm + persia to get input from TI on recommended times
<NCommander> And then next week we're determine when is the best time.
<NCommander> k?
<ogra_ac> ++
<NCommander> moving on :-)
<NCommander> [topic] the return of openoffice on arm images due to desktop team merging the seeds
<MootBot> New Topic:  the return of openoffice on arm images due to desktop team merging the seeds
<ogra_ac> just a warning ;)
 * NCommander goes to cry in the corner with this topic
<ogra_ac> for the OO.o lovers among us
<NCommander> Please, don't let Oracle touch me. It burns!
<ogra_ac> -desktop team will merge the seeds
<ogra_ac> and only build a single image
<ogra_ac> we might or might not differ in that
<NCommander> ogra_ac: sounds like we need to get spice seeds this cycle then to prevent this. OO.o + ARM sucks
<ogra_ac> i have a workitem on their spec to research that
<NCommander> or at least an architecture specific exclusion
<GrueMaster> I believe it was announced that we will be moving to LibreOffice.
<davidm> Sounds like we are going to need an ARM seed to me
<ogra_ac> NCommander, we might need to build desktop images this cycle
<NCommander> ogra_ac: well persia came up with a possible lead to find the missing notes so we might get lucky
<ogra_ac> davidm, i wouldnt like that if we can avoid it
<NCommander> ogra_ac: *wince*. Bad things happen when we try and remove OO.o from desktop
<ogra_ac> not anymore
<NCommander> ogra_ac: would or wouldn't?
<ogra_ac> wouldnt
<davidm> I don't want OO back on the build it takes to much room
<ogra_ac> i'd like to go with one seed
<NCommander> I don't want OO.o cause we're almost out of cows to sacirife to keep it going
<davidm> I'd love to go with one seed if it meets our needs, which OO does not
<ogra_ac> but the question is how technically hard that is
<NCommander> ogra_ac: I'll take this action item
<ogra_ac> davidm, on desktop images ?
<davidm> Also we don't have mono working still
<NCommander> and research if we can sanely exclude OOo if we build desktop in fair of something (anything) else
<NCommander> davidm: OOo doesn't depend on mono (yet), just java
<davidm> ogra, not at the moment
<ogra_ac> NCommander, preferably i dont want us to have the extra work to keep seeds in sync
<NCommander> though I think openjdk is kinda foobar'ed
<ogra_ac> ??
<davidm> NCommander,  but the new audio player for desktrop does I think
<ogra_ac> openjdk is fine
<NCommander> ogra_ac: what I'm hoping is we can do one seed, but get OOo off our images
<ogra_ac> we can
<ogra_ac> thats no prob
<NCommander> ogra_ac: I'll look into it, I have to touch germinate anyway for other stuff
<ogra_ac> we fixed that in lucid
<NCommander> ogra_ac: oh, is it more of a question "do we want to exclude it?"
 * GrueMaster shudders at the QA implications of OO.o on the images.
<ogra_ac> NCommander, right
<ogra_ac> NCommander, and accroding to davidm we dont want OO.o
<NCommander> GrueMaster: we'll have to sacrifice one of the bodies to keep the beast happy
<davidm> and we don't want mono apps
<ogra_ac> we need to take care for OO.o anyway
<ogra_ac> if its on the images or not
<davidm> seperate problem but a problem non the less
<ogra_ac> so i dont see the issue why it matters if we have it on the desktop images
<NCommander> If there is no contractual requirement for Canonical-provided images, and if there's no demand for it on community-provided images, then I'm happy to leave it off
<NCommander> ogra_ac: out of site, out of mind ;-)
<ogra_ac> NCommander, we still need to take care for it
<NCommander> ogra_ac: although granted, with the migration to libreoffice, at least we can drop most of the patches since we won't have issues with upstream
<ogra_ac> its a main app we are bound to make sure works
<NCommander> ogra_ac: yes, but if its on the image, we have to make sure it works well :-P
 * ogra_ac doesnt see much difference between libre and openoffice yet
<ogra_ac> i assume for natty the code wont much differ
<NCommander> ogra_ac: its more that we won't have issues with getting upstream to accept patches
<ogra_ac> we always have to make sure it works well
<NCommander> Sun's upstremaing guidelines were ... painful
<ogra_ac> ah, yeah, patching should be easier
<NCommander> ogra_ac: indeed
<NCommander> I'm of leaving it off the images
<ogra_ac> i dont really care
<NCommander> *for
<ogra_ac> i wouldnt mind having it on desktop images
<ogra_ac> not on netbook though
<NCommander> davidm: do we care about OOo being shipped? We can exclude it on a per-architecture basis and re-add it on a per image basis (if spice seeds materialize) if we need it
<davidm> Currently we are not planning on desktop images
<ogra_ac> (its not clear yet if we *will* build desktop at all)
<ogra_ac> right
<davidm> For ARM netbooks OO was overkill
<ogra_ac> yes
<NCommander> ogra_ac: I think we should stick a pin in this discussion and only revisit of desktop images materialize
<NCommander> davidm: s/was/is/g
<ogra_ac> i just would like to sick as close to the desktop seed as possible for images
<ogra_ac> NCommander, good idea
<NCommander> I think we're all agreed that we're not putting OO.o on the netbook images short of a contractual requirement to do so (or strong community demand which I consider unlikely)
<NCommander> BTW
<NCommander> In response to earlier feedback
<ogra_ac> no, no OO.o on netbook, in any case
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to eBay his soul to fix mono on ARM
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to eBay his soul to fix mono on ARM
<NCommander> :-)
<ogra_ac> heh, who would bid on that ?
<NCommander> ouch.
<rsalveti> heheh, true
<ogra_ac> or do you plan a buy now offer ?
<rsalveti> and you're brave to try to fix mono
<NCommander> With friends like you, who needs enemies?
<NCommander> :_p
<ogra_ac> heh
<ogra_ac> we love you, you know that :)
<NCommander> rsalveti: meh. mono isn't a re-implementation of Windows COM. It at least has comments in the code base
<ogra_ac> in any case rhythmbox will stay in the supported set of apps
<rsalveti> NCommander: but is a pain :-)
<NCommander> ogra_ac: all abusers say that :-P *runs*
<ogra_ac> so we can happily go on shipping it
<NCommander> rsalveti: I did some work on mono on ARM last time it blew up
<NCommander> so I have a general idea of what might be going wrong
<rsalveti> oh can, I'm happy I'm not the one to fix it
<ogra_ac> tomboy is the only mono app we currently have
<rsalveti> *oh, ok
<NCommander> oh crap
<NCommander> damn it
<ogra_ac> in our images
<ogra_ac> hmm, and gwibber possibly
<NCommander> why didn't I drink coffee earlier, I just enlisted for a world of pain :-/
<NCommander> ogra_ac: we want it fixed anyway :-/
<ogra_ac> we do
<ogra_ac> though
<NCommander> mono been mostly foobar'ed since karmic(?)
<ogra_ac> please coordinate with linaro
<NCommander> none of us could really look into it lucid
<ogra_ac> specifically with slangasek's team
<NCommander> ogra_ac: has anyone in linaro looked into it?
<ogra_ac> no, but the linaro platform team cares for such stuff
<rsalveti> no one is interested, I believe
<ogra_ac> so work together with them
<ogra_ac> i pointed slangasek to it last release, but i think nobody had time over there
<ogra_ac> so i guess they appreciate if you work on it
<NCommander> ogra_ac: where's the existing mono is broken bug
<ogra_ac> use their resources if you need to though
<ogra_ac> no idea from the top of my head
<ogra_ac> let me look that up after meeting
 * GrueMaster looks.
<ogra_ac> or that ;)
<NCommander> right
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> moving on, I don't want to run over
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<GrueMaster> (mono) Bug #561874
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 561874 in f-spot (Ubuntu) "NULL Reference exception in F-Spot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/561874
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-alpha-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-alpha-1.html
<ogra_ac> did GrueMaster take the action for fixing the assigned bugs list above ?
<ogra_ac> the WI list isnt complete yet
<ogra_ac> needs another tracker run
<GrueMaster> Will do.  Actually I need to ping marjo for this.
<ogra_ac> GrueMaster, thanks
<ogra_ac> NCommander, action ^^^
<NCommander> [action] GrueMaster to fix assigned bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster to fix assigned bugs
<GrueMaster> (mono) Bug #619981
<NCommander> hrm
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 619981 in banshee (Ubuntu Maverick) "Banshee crashed while sitting idle on omap4" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/619981
<NCommander> That action item seems like it could be worded better :-)
<ogra_ac> lol
<ogra_ac> well, i dont mind
<ogra_ac> you should say "assigned to ubuntu-armel" ;)
<GrueMaster> Yea, and you want them fixed...when?
<ogra_ac> alpha 1 please
<NCommander> GrueMaster: tonight preferable ;-)
<ogra_ac> :P
<NCommander> [topic] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<ogra_ac> that will break with the next run
<NCommander> k
 * GrueMaster increases rent, decreases heat upstairs.
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
<ogra_ac> canonical-mobile doesnt exist anymore
<ogra_ac> NCommander, that needs cleanup
<NCommander> GrueMaster: don't worry, I have all your hatred aimed at me to keep me warm
<ogra_ac> no mpoirier or lag anymore
<NCommander> yay, we fixed the issue of lag on the internet!
<ogra_ac> we moved the lag to linaro ;)
<NCommander> that explains so much
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Nothing to report.  Checkbox customization is WIP.
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<NCommander> not quite a diaster as when I left on VAC, thanks ogra
<ogra_ac> I don't have time to wait for the right point in the meeting as I'm about to leave here.  I wanted to make sure people knew that Bug #675347 is now the blocker for Qt/KDE stuff on arm and hopefully you can convince someone to fix it soon.
<NCommander> Once Qt is fixed, KDE should just build with a few minor whacks. ScottK is handling this mostly
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 675347 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu Natty) "volatile int causes inline assembly build failure" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/675347
<ogra_ac> from ScottK
<ogra_ac> (he pinged me in PM)
<NCommander> ogra_ac: thanks
<ogra_ac> so thats one biggie
<NCommander> Right, other than that, the list is pretty simple, and not too many ARM specific in main
<NCommander> Once Qt/KDE gets fixed, I'm going to ask for a universe mass-giveback as theirs a lot of breakage there that's just archive skew
<ogra_ac> nothing blocks image builds atm at least
<NCommander> indeed
<NCommander> so, moving on
<ogra_ac> we need to look into it nontheless
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_ac> we have omap4
<NCommander> WE HAVE IMAGES! (thanks ogra)
<ogra_ac> for omap3 the kernel status isnt clear yet
<ogra_ac> (see my discussion on the MLs)
<ogra_ac> someone needs to take security responsibility for omap3
<ogra_ac> then we can use linaros kernel
<ogra_ac> until thats clear we wont have omap3
<NCommander> [action] ogra to follow up on omap3 situation with Linaro's kernle team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to follow up on omap3 situation with Linaro's kernle team
<ogra_ac> (sorry for the image build mails until then)
<rsalveti> actually this needs to be followed with ubuntu's kernel and security team
<ogra_ac> NCommander, has nothing to do with linaros kernel team
<ogra_ac> please remove that action
<NCommander> striken
<ogra_ac> (and read the ML thread first :P )
<NCommander> ogra_ac: I did, I thought Linaro was saying they were going to take the kernel.
<ogra_ac> ubuntus kernel and security teams have the ball atm
<ogra_ac> as rsalveti said
<NCommander> d'oh
<NCommander> [action] ogra_ac to follow omap3 kernel situation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra_ac to follow omap3 kernel situation
<ogra_ac> and nobody but manjo answered the thread yet
<ogra_ac> (with an unrelated comment)
<ogra_ac> the kernel team is well aware
<ogra_ac> i raised it in their last meeting
<ogra_ac> but dont have a solution either yet
<ogra_ac> and no manpower
<rsalveti> probably only after getting those 2 new guys around
<ogra_ac> yes
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: and about the newer guy from our team?
<ogra_ac> no idea when he starts
<ogra_ac> davidm will know soon i guess
<ogra_ac> and tell us then ;)
<rsalveti> oh :-)
<rsalveti> and just a note, I'll be at vacation next week
<ogra_ac> k
<ogra_ac> slacker !
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<ogra_ac> everyone: finish workitems !
<ogra_ac> :)
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: haha, and you'll be forced to be out during december ;-)
<ogra_ac> yeah, i guess
<NCommander> anything else
<NCommander> will close in 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1 1/2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:53.
<ogra_ac> pfft
<davidm> Thanks NCommander
<ogra_ac> you wasterd 7 min we had
<ogra_ac> :P
 * NCommander whacks ogra_ac 
 * GrueMaster considers crawling back to bed for a few hours.
<ogra_ac> :)
<ogra_ac> damned
<ogra_ac> i forgot to mention merges
<ogra_ac> please finish them if you still have any
<kees> o/
<pitti> I sent a SMS to sabdfl, not sure whether he can make it
<pitti> so, no Keybuk, no sabdfl?
<cjwatson> I'm here
 * Chipaca waves
<cjwatson> albeit swearing at gcc
 * thisfred lurks
<cjwatson> it's not a good day when I have to grep gcc source
<kees> cjwatson: owchy
 * wendar lurks, to answer any ARB-related questions
<cjwatson> is mdz expected to be absent?
<cjwatson> sabdfl is supposed to be chairing today
<pitti> not on the holiday calendar, so I suspect meetings?
<cjwatson> or timezone confusion ...
<pitti> so, I volunteer for doing the writeups etc., but we don't think we have a quorum for decisions
<pitti> TZ> but if at all (UTC based), it would have been an hour earlier
<cjwatson> 3/6 should be quorate
<pitti> so, let's start
<pitti> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:07. The chair is pitti.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> [TOPIC] action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  action review
<pitti> Colin to ensure that documentation on nature of extras.ubuntu.com archive makes it into process docs, and ensure that ARB legality checks are synchronised with those of ubuntu-archive.
<pitti> I've seen your recent mail about license checks
<pitti> so once that gets ack'ed by ARB, it should become part of the official wiki docs
<wendar> I have a reply in the moderation queue on that
<pitti> cjwatson: is the first part ('nature of extras') something else?
<cjwatson> yes, that was an attempt to quickly clear my actions before the meeting
<cjwatson> pitti: I added a link to ArchiveAdministration to resolve that
<wendar> the intention of the ARB is to synchronize with the ubuntu-archive legality checks
<cjwatson> moderated wendar's mail
<pitti> wendar: moderated
<pitti> cjwatson: so, let's keep it on the list to check next time?
<cjwatson> I was about to say that we no longer needed to carry that action forward :)
<cjwatson> but as you like
<pitti> ok
<pitti> if the NEW checks were the main point here -> done
<pitti> Matt to write up Quarterly Brainstorm review and send to TB mailing list
<pitti> that happened
<cjwatson> it sounds like it is already essentially in hand on the ARB side
<pitti> I have to admit I didn't follow up on that yet
<pitti> [TOPIC] KDE micro version update exception
<MootBot> New Topic:  KDE micro version update exception
<pitti> ScottK: ^
<ScottK> Hello
<ScottK> Lost track of time.
<pitti> so, http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft is a tad more permissive than our SRU policy
<ScottK> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-November/000525.html is where to start on this.
<pitti> but pretty much matches what we are doing in SRUs in practice
<ScottK> It is.
<ScottK> We aren't asking to take all point releases, just ones that we can test and have some confidence are regression free.
<ScottK> We currently have KDE 4.4.5 tested and ready for Lucid if we get permission.
<pitti> FYI, in GNOME we usually deliver .1, selected stuff from .2, and further microreleases only on demand
<pitti> since the cost/benefit factor quickly gets worse
<ScottK> We have been doing these in a PPA and they are very popular.
<ScottK> Allowing this into the archive would actually reduce our workload somewhat since we'd no longer have to keep an eye on two sets of packages.
<pitti> ScottK: these updates still need to refer to at least one "representative" LP bug where the testing and progress gets documented; does that sound acceptable?
<kees> I'm fine with it; it's getting even more testing than a usual SRU too
<ScottK> pitti: Yes.  There are a lot of packages and one bug per package is just confusing to people.
<pitti> the upstream policy draft and https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy look fine to me as well, I'm just pretty adamant about the LP bug reference with ubuntu-sru@ subscription, since not doing so woudl complicate the SRU process a lot
<ScottK> I've no problem at all with that.
<pitti> ScottK: oh, you mean you don't want one bug per package?
<pitti> one bug "KDE 4.4.5 for lucid" with all the necessary bug tasks works equally well
<pitti> if you prefer that
<cjwatson> right, it just needs to be something that can be represented on pending-sru.html
<pitti> well, it's a bit harder to track for individual package verification
<ScottK> I'd prefer one bug for the set.  They'll only be moved into -updates as a set and I think it's easier to track.
<cjwatson> yeah, the tags don't work right
<pitti> ScottK: ok, then we need to track the component verification in the bug comments, and set it to v-done with the last one
<pitti> (we can do that in the description)
<ScottK> That would be my plan.
<ScottK> Since done is irrelevant until the set is done.
<cjwatson> ok
<pitti> no further questions from me, we already discussed that several times
<pitti> cjwatson, kees: further questions/discussions?
<cjwatson> no, I'm happy with ths
<ScottK> You all saw Mark's resonse on the list, right?
<cjwatson> *this
<ScottK> response ...
 * kees nods
<cjwatson> I did, he said +1
<pitti> [VOTE] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<MootBot> Please vote on:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
 * pitti brings the ballot box to kees
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pitti> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<pitti> ScottK: good end to a looong story :)
<ScottK> Yes.  Thank you everyone.
<pitti> [ACTION] pitti to link https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy from SRU page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to link https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy from SRU page
<ScottK> I'll modify the UpdatesPolicy to mention how to do the bug tracking for the SRU.
<pitti> [TOPIC] couchdb lucid backport SRU
<MootBot> New Topic:  couchdb lucid backport SRU
<Chipaca> hi
<pitti> Chipaca:
<Chipaca> i sent a second email because the first one was broken (?)
<Chipaca> but maybe you got it ok
<cjwatson> we got both :)
<pitti> first one went through, too
<Chipaca> the archive mangled the first, or my mua did :)
<pitti> I can't approve this under the normal SRU policy, so this requires an exceptio
<pitti> n
<cjwatson> where is the upgrade procedure implemented?
<pitti> Chipaca: the thing I don't understand is how the lucid version coudl suddenly get incompatible with our cloud servers?
<pitti> did we change our server API and knowingly break lucid clients?
<kees> so, just to certain, this is a one-time exception, not a standing exception?
<Keybuk> argh, sorry
<pitti> hey Keybuk, welcome
<Chipaca> kees: yes, one time
<Keybuk> my calendar is completely screwed and just gave me the alarm for the TB meeting
<Keybuk> *hate timezone issues*
<Chipaca> pitti: we had to upgrade the servers for several of the issues fixed by the newer ones
<pitti> Chipaca: so I guess by doing this you pretty much forced the upgrade on lucid
 * cjwatson looks at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntuone/+archive/stable to see if he can discover the answer to his question above
<Chipaca> pitti: without the fix, it didn't work on anything
<pitti> but 0.10->1.0 changes are very extensive, so for the same reason why we can't backport patches that version jump also has a high regression potential for current lucid users
<Chipaca> pitti: so it was either don't work on nothing, or work on only maverick
<pitti> I see that you did extensive testing, which mitigates this concern quite a bit
<cjwatson> also, is this only the couchdb package, or also the many other packages in ~ubuntuone/stable?
<ScottK> It could go in lucid-backports.
<pitti> Chipaca: it didn't work at all on lucid when we released?
<james_w> how has the problem that all your data "disappears" with the upgrade been handled?
<cjwatson> ScottK: if it's actually broken in lucid right now ("it" being U1 I suppose) then I'm not sure -backports is appropriate; seems like more than new features
<Chipaca> cjwatson: only couchdb
<cjwatson> Chipaca: and that was tested in isolation from the other stuff in the PPA?
<thisfred> pitti: It worked but not under increasing load, it just didn't scale
<ScottK> cjwatson: Agreed.  Just suggesting that as an alternative if -updates was deemed not suitable or risky.
<pitti> my main concern is here that couchdb isn't just used for U1
<Chipaca> cjwatson: yes, just the couch packages
<pitti> and we indeed promote it more and more for quickly apps, etc.
<pitti> so if it introduces any incompatibility with the unknown set of programs, we will get a very easy data loss regression
<cjwatson> ok, so I can't quickly find the answer to my question from the source - where is the data upgrade procedure implemented?  is it in a maintainer script, or is it just when you load the file in couchdb?
<Chipaca> that's a question for thisfred i think, but AFAIK the incompatibility only really affects replication
<thisfred> cjwatson: yes opening an existing db in couchdb migrates it. This is a one way process, unfortunately
<cjwatson> right, I just wanted to know that it wasn't in maintainer scripts
<cjwatson> I'm more comfortable with it in couchdb itself, since doing this in maintainer scripts can be hard to get right
 * kees nods
<thisfred> There aren't many API changes, mainly new API rather than removal or change of behavior of existing API. Replication was fixed so that it works better over SSL, but the calls are still the same.
<pitti> (or impossible, with desktopcouch and per-user instances)
<cjwatson> quite so.
<pitti> thisfred: ah, so the main trap here is shared home directories over the network, where some clients upgrade to 1.0, and some not (yet); the latter then coulnd't access the DB any more, right?
<thisfred> nope
<james_w> I think the proposed change may have a poor user experience. couchdb uses versioned directories for the databases, so on upgrade all your data appears to vanish. Anything u1 synced would then probably be re-downloaded rather than using the local version, and any local databases will be inaccessible until they are migrated manually.
<thisfred> pitti what it sends over the wire is json, not the dbs, so it would be happy to replicate against a 0.10 db locally, as long as it's not over SSL which was badly broken.
<thisfred> pitti sry misread that
<pitti> thisfred: "the wire" also includes local apps? they just talk over the localhost TCP port?
<thisfred> pitti: yes shared home directories would not work for the 0.10 clients
<thisfred> pitti: they would error until they upgraded to 1.0.x as well
<pitti> james_w: where does it appear vanished then? I thought couchdb would auto-upgrade it on demand?
<james_w> pitti, that wasn't my experience
<thisfred> once a db is in 1.0 format it can't be read by 0.10 any more, is the short of it
<james_w> pitti, see README.Debian
<thisfred> james_w: the versioned data directories is true, but not for anything synced with u1, since those dbs live in users' home directories
<cjwatson> README.Debian: http://paste.ubuntu.com/533059/
<thisfred> I wish couchdb didn't do that
<cjwatson> thisfred: ok, but we have other things using couchdb
<thisfred> right
<pitti> thisfred: we need to be concerned about general database useage here, though, not just u1
<james_w> has the server team been consulted?
<thisfred> I know
<cjwatson> is it worth considering an ubuntuone-couchdb temporary fork?
<cjwatson> just for lucid
<pitti> cjwatson: nice idea
<pitti> then we could change lucid's u1 packages to use that instead?
<cjwatson> or maybe couchdb-1.0 would be a better name
<cjwatson> YKWIM though
<Chipaca> i'd call it couchdb-ssl :)
<Chipaca> yeah
<thisfred> Should be doable
<pitti> question is what to do with desktopcouch then
<cjwatson> I'm not familiar enough with that to be able to comment
<pitti> thisfred: I take it we couldn't leave desktopcouch to use the 0.10 version?
<thisfred> pitti: I think the old desktopcouch would continue working, this was tested
<thisfred> so that doesn't need an SRU
<kees> it'd be nice to not fork, since there are outstanding CVEs in couchdb...
<thisfred> AFAIK
<pitti> thisfred: but wouldn't the per-user DBs have the same per-version directory probleM?
<kees> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/couchdb.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/couchdb.html
<cjwatson> kees: I know, but the tension seems hard to break
<thisfred> pitti: no they don't they live in userland, and don't have this issue
<pitti> thisfred: could you extend your wiki page to point out the consequences for system-wide couchdb, per-user couchdb instances, and how to retain full API compatibility with quickly apps, so that we can revisit that next time?
<thisfred> Well, we'd have to change its dependency in case of a temporary fork of course
<pitti> my feeling is that we don't yet have enough confidence in this
<thisfred> pitti: will do
<pitti> I'll keep it on the agenda for revisiting in two weeks
<pitti> thisfred: thanks
<cjwatson> I'd be grateful if somebody could at least explore the fork suggestion and see how well it works out; I expect there are a number of small issues to solve there
<thisfred> quickly uses desktopcouch btw, so since desktopcouch works, quickly apps should also
<thisfred> if they don't poke through the API
<pitti> thisfred: right, but I'm not quite clear what kind of changes we'd need to do to desktopcouch if we have a counchdb and couchdb-1.0 pacakge in lucid
<thisfred> pitti: yeah, it would be the dependency and the startup machinery, at least (and at most, I think)
<pitti> if we left desktopcouch to use 0.1, then we still wouldnt' have replication, and thus miss what you try to do for U1, or did I misunderstand?
<thisfred> that is correct
<thisfred> no replication to U1
<pitti> well, since we didn't have that ever in lucid, this doesn't seem like a pressing issue to me
<pitti> but the security issues seem more worthwhile to consider
<thisfred> we did, until the 0.10 couch on the server buckled under the load
<pitti> thisfred: this is just for contacts etc. sync, not for U1 file sync, right?
<thisfred> pitti: correct
<kees> they're low, except for 1 medium which doesn't apply to desktopcouch (just the not-installed-by-default server side)
<Chipaca> right, so no contact sync, no bookmarks sync, no notes sync
<thisfred> notes sync is special
<pitti> Chipaca: perhaps you can add some more details about the affected servicese as well, and which ones actually regressed
<thisfred> so yes notes sync
<Chipaca> thisfred: right, no notes sync *back*
<pitti> Chipaca, thisfred: so, can we reiterate that in two weeks, and extend the wiki pages with above info, and explore the feasibility of a couchdb-1.0 package? that okay for you?
<Chipaca> we can work with that
<thisfred> yep
<pitti> ok, thanks
<Chipaca> it's not *ideal*, but, yes
<pitti> [TOPIC] ARB exception proposal - Allison Randal
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARB exception proposal - Allison Randal
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/MaverickExceptionsProposal
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/MaverickExceptionsProposal
<pitti> wendar: some questions to that
<pitti> wendar: how many python libraries" do such packages actually ship?
<pitti> the odd mini application should presumably only use private libraries or just programs?
<wendar> they shouldn't ship any general-purpose libararies, only private libraries
<pitti> my main concern there would be namespace clobbering/shadowing
<pitti> wendar: private libraries coudl live in the app directory, as long as the program sets sys.path properly, couldn't they? or is that impractical for some reason?
<wendar> (on namespace clobbering) yes, the suggestion there is to require the libraries to use a subpath "extras"
<wendar> (on sys.path) the applications can run fine, but the packaging tools can't generate the .pyc files
<cjwatson> this may be bikeshedding, but the mentions of /opt/extras looked odd to me
<pitti> .pyc isnt' strictly required, though
<cjwatson> I realise it's probably because you don't know all the paths in advance
<cjwatson> there's a technique in man-db which might help - infer the paths you need from $PATH
<cjwatson> i.e. if /opt/foo/bin is on $PATH then you want /opt/foo/site-packages or whatever
<cjwatson> is that practical?  I'm not sure how you arrange for things in /opt to be executd
<cjwatson> +e
<wendar> cjwatson: the idea there is to pick some unique path under /opt for all applications, before the package name
<cjwatson> right, it's just kind of contrary to the way /opt is normally used and has essentially the same potential conflict problems as putting things in /usr
<pitti> wendar: hm, usually they should use /opt/<appname>?
<cjwatson> the idea of /opt is to have everything have a completely separate tree, and I wanted to explore whether that could be preserved
<cjwatson> for example things could iterate over all subdirectories of /opt, if inferring from $PATH isn't feasible
<pitti> I think we can probably make an exception for maverick to put desktop files under /usr/local/share/applications/
<cjwatson> I realise it's sort of nitpicking, just wanted to see if we could get this right from *cough* nearly the start
<pitti> to avoid heavy patches to many libraries to also consider /opt/*
<cjwatson> pitti: agreed
<pitti> the "python binaries" should be mostly a non-issue IMHO
<wendar> from the FHS: /opt/<provider>/<appname> is the other option (to further protect the general namespace)
<cjwatson> oh, huh
<pitti> the .desktop file will point to the right path, and that's mostly what we are interested in
<wendar> so we're looking for a unique "provider"
<pitti> so I think the main concern are the python libs here
<cjwatson> wendar obviously knows the FHS better than I do
<wendar> we first suggested "SoftwareCenter", but that doesn't seem to fit with the general naming scheme for providers
<cjwatson> well, you're supposed to register things with the LANANA, per the FHS
<cjwatson> if that's still operating ...
<cjwatson> it was H. Peter Anvin last I checked
<kees> adding the glue for things in /usr to use /opt seems silly -- just use /usr. The whole point of /opt was to keep things separate.
<pitti> wendar: for maverick, could we fix quickly to automatically add the binary's directory to sys.path, and ask app authors to do the same?
<cjwatson> LANANA provider list last changed 2010-11-05
<wendar> yes, we should register, once we settle on a name
<cjwatson> http://www.lanana.org/lsbreg/providers/providers.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.lanana.org/lsbreg/providers/providers.txt
<pitti> kees: for desktop files?
<cjwatson> examples of names
<cjwatson> how about just /opt/ubuntu then?
<kees> pitti: right, it seems like .desktop would live in /usr and the core would be in /opt
<pitti> kees: it shouldn't be the final solution of course, but I think for maverick it'd be an acceptable compromise; you don't?
<pitti> after all, these packages still get a review for sanity
<cjwatson> No other package files may exist outside the /opt, /var/opt, and /etc/opt
<kees> pitti: yeah
<cjwatson> hierarchies except for those package files that must reside in specific
<cjwatson> locations within the filesystem tree in order to function properly. For
<cjwatson> so the FHS does have a get-out clause
<cjwatson> example, device lock files must be placed in /var/lock and devices must be
<cjwatson> located in /dev.
<cjwatson> I dunno though, I feel that if we used that get-out too much there's precious little point in using /opt at all
<cjwatson> so I'd like us to have at least some glue
<pitti> I'd really avoid that for python libs
<cjwatson> yes
<wendar> cjwatson: /opt/ubuntu would work, if you're comfortable with possible namespace collisions between some other (potential future) apps using the same namespace (nothing uses it now, so it's safe)
 * SpamapS coughs and looks over at the clock
<robbiew> :)
<pitti> SpamapS: you have a meeting here now?
<SpamapS> me? no not me.
<kirkland> pitti: server team meeting
<pitti> oops
<cjwatson> wendar: you mean other apps in extras.u.c?
<SpamapS> just coughing, wondering what time it is. ;)
<robbiew> pitti: no worries...recent move ;)
<pitti> wendar: so, seems we have to move that to email
<pitti> wendar: I'll summarize the discussion here and reply to your mail
<pitti> wendar: and we can pick it up again next time if needed (or resolve by email)
<ScottK> Since these apps are specifically not part of Ubuntu, that namespace choice seems odd.
<ScottK> wendar: ^^^
 * pitti taps gavel, need to wrap up
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<pitti> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:06.
<pitti> robbiew, kirkland: sorry for running over
<robbiew> pitti: np
<kirkland> pitti: ;-)
<SpamapS> actually your discussion was probably a lot more interesting than what we're going to discuss.. ;)
<hallyn> (oh my, quitting mumble just killed my unity sidebar)
<smb> hallyn, You shall not leave unpunished
<SpamapS> lol
<hallyn> smb: for not running wmii?  :)
<smb> hallyn, Just for trying to leave that lovely mumble arena
<hallyn> yeah, i always hate to do it
<zul> have we started yet?
<hallyn> no
<SpamapS> Daviey: I think you have the honors sir.
<robbiew> no...who's chairing this week?
<hallyn> is Daviey running the show?
<JamesPage> who's up for chair this week?
<robbiew> ah
<SpamapS> robbiew: feel free to throw yourself into the chair/scribe list for great happiness.
<robbiew> SpamapS: no thanks...I have enough busy work as it is ;)
<hallyn> Daviey: around?
<smoser> so, we do have a meeting
<smoser> cool
<zul> how convient :0
<hallyn> (one last ping) Daviey ?
<hallyn> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:13. The chair is hallyn.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<hallyn> TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> #TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> mathiaz: to verify SRU bug 666028
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 666028 in openldap "apt-get install slapd => Can't locate object method "new" via package "Debconf::Element::Noninteractive::Booleam"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/666028
<hallyn> mathiaz isn't here though.  carry over?
<SpamapS> indeed
 * hallyn feels lonely
<hallyn> moving on,
<JamesPage> Not sure whether mathiaz did this but it has been verified
<hallyn> ALL: please check the SRU tracker for verification-needed bugs and help out with verification
<hallyn> JamesPage: oh, ok, thanks
<SpamapS> There are 2 bugs needing verification in the SRU tracker right now
<hallyn> so, i've personally done more to add sru requests than verify them this week, i'm afraid
<SpamapS> The unassigned list is .. crazy though
<SpamapS> Seems like we could all stand to attack the lucid ones with a vengance before 10.04.2
<hallyn> which is when exactly?
<zul> soon i think but robbiew has a probably better idea
<SpamapS> January 27
<kirkland> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<robbiew> fyi - the dates are tentative ;)
<hallyn> SpamapS: for simplicity, do you have a link to the sru tracker?
<hallyn> (simplicity, and for the logs)
<SpamapS> http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs
<hallyn> cool, so i recon' we carry that one over?
<SpamapS> Yes indeed.
<robbiew> so is this link obsolete: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam
<hallyn> [ACTION] ALL: please check the SRU tracker http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs and help out with verification
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ALL: please check the SRU tracker http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs and help out with verification
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/SRUTracker
<robbiew> the 2nd one...1st isn't...hopefully :P
<SpamapS> I've not seen that wiki page until just now.
<SpamapS> was that manually maintained?
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
<robbiew> :)
<zul> robbiew: yeah that one is *really* old
<hallyn> [ACTION] robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
<hallyn> which is really old?
<zul> the ServerTeam/SRUTracker
<hallyn> hm. ok. good to know, thx
<hallyn> any more need to be said about sru's?
<hallyn> (last week we deferred a conversation about making them a daily activity)
<hallyn> all right then, moving on
<hallyn> SpamapS: change kernel team representative from jjohansen to smb in meeting agenda going forward
<SpamapS> lets have that SRU talk during Open Discussion
<hallyn> ok
<SpamapS> hallyn: done
<hallyn> robbiew: update the fridge calendar with new ubuntu server meeting time
<hallyn> (i saw this morning that was done :)
<hallyn> (as i looked in a panick for the right time)
<hallyn> hggdh: contact Ubuntu Developers asking for packages which run test suites during build.
<hggdh> done -- I asked in devel-discuss. My track record for having emails accepted in -devel sucks
<hallyn> haha, yeah easy way to feel rejection
<hallyn> thanks
<hggdh> I got some more packages to build, and they are already on the process
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<hallyn> anything to discuss here?
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<robbiew> oh
<robbiew> so I'm reviewing/approving blueprints
<SpamapS> you said that last week. ;)
<robbiew> yep
<robbiew> it's a slow process
<hallyn> robbiew: is it safe to say that if we should be worried, you'd have talked to us by now?
<robbiew> especially when folks are missing work items and milestone targets ;)
<robbiew> nothing to worry about
<robbiew> it's a fluid process anyway
<robbiew> I could approve every single one
<robbiew> but we know they won't all be done
<robbiew> :)
<hallyn> \o/
<robbiew> my main focus is on eliminating work we KNOW we can't do
<robbiew> and prioritizing the res
<robbiew> rest
<SpamapS> its basically whether you crush our dreams now, or the work crushes them later.
<robbiew> so we know what to drop come review in Alpha 2 and Alpha 3
<robbiew> welcome to time-based releases !
<hallyn> SpamapS: except this lets us stay excited awhiel longer :)
<robbiew> SpamapS: the priority of the blueprint will indicate dream-crushing probability :P
<SpamapS> hallyn: its like wrapping up hunks of coal for christmas..
<robbiew> as I'm out next week...I hope to have it all sorted by Friday
<robbiew> especially since the 1st release mtg is quickly approaching
 * SpamapS resolves to submit his remaining 3 BP's for review today
<robbiew> and I don't want skaet to kick my ass ;)
<skaet> :)
<SpamapS> skaet: aim for the knees
<robbiew> hallyn: that's it from me
<hallyn> cool, thanks
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Maverick SRUs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick SRUs
<hallyn> Bug 661547 - Existing patch gssapi.diff makes guess_service_principal produce garbage
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661547 in openldap (Ubuntu) "Existing patch gssapi.diff makes guess_service_principal produce garbage" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661547
 * hallyn picks someone at random to point to
<hallyn> zul: ^
<JamesPage> Pending release of bug 666028 which is holding things up
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 666028 in openldap "apt-get install slapd => Can't locate object method "new" via package "Debconf::Element::Noninteractive::Booleam"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/666028
 * smoser will have BPs submitted for approval also
<hallyn> JamesPage: ah, thanks
<hallyn> JamesPage: any estimated resolution date on that?
<zul> hallyn: ack
<JamesPage> patched version had been verified so now pending release
<hallyn> <nod>  thanks
<hallyn> Bug 657149 - squid fails to upgrade (incomplete)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 657149 in squid (Ubuntu) "package squid 2.7.STABLE9-2ubuntu5 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/657149
<hallyn> uh, i'll try that again:  zul ^  :)
<zul> hallyn: *sigh*
<SpamapS> how is that an SRU for maverick at this point? It still doesn't even look Confirmed
<hallyn> so it should be taken off that list?
<zul> yes its incomplete
<hallyn> all right, will pull that from the list for next mtg
<hallyn> Bug 658227 - openldap fails to upgrade (in -proposed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 658227 in openldap (Ubuntu Natty) "upgrade process does not upgrade underlying BDB format from 4.7 to 4.8 (so slapd aborts with "Program version 4.8 doesn't match environment version 4.7" error message)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/658227
<hggdh> it should. And it has not even been nominated
<JamesPage> hallyn: 658227 released to -updates
<hallyn> anything needed for lucid on that?
<hallyn> oh no - i think coffee shop lady is about to reset my connection
<hallyn> all right so 658227 i'll take off the list too
<hallyn> Bug 660227 - php5-pgsql crash on getting an error back from postgres (in -proposed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 660227 in php5 (Ubuntu) "php5-pgsql crash on getting an error back from postgres" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/660227
<hallyn> fix released in maverick - remove from list?
<zul> yes
<hallyn> Bug 600174 - axis2c fails to build from source on maverick/i386
<hallyn> (last one)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 600174 in axis2c (Ubuntu Natty) "axis2c fails to build from source on maverick/i386" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/600174
<hallyn> not fix released in natty...
<hallyn> not viable for sru?
<SpamapS> I wonder if we need to keep handling Maverick SRU's in the meeting after this meeting?
<hallyn> SpamapS: ?
<zul> hallyn: its not a viable SRU
<hallyn> zul: thanks.  will pull that one as well
<SpamapS> I think the reason they were discussed was to handle the OMG bugs that needed fast turn around after the release. We're over a month out.. they should probably join lucid bugs in the big SRU list.
<hallyn> sounds good to me.  let's discuss in open discussion
<robbiew> SpamapS: agree...also (fwiw) skaet plans to have a bi-weekly meeting to cover SRUs
<robbiew> separate from the weekly release meeting
<hallyn> oh, that'd be good.  where will it be announced?
<SpamapS> sign me up
<skaet> yup.   email will be oming out soon...
<hallyn> ditto
<hallyn> cool, thanks
<hallyn> moving on
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> I am starting to work with zul to take over part of the SRU process
<zul> yay!
<hallyn> :)
<hggdh> apart from that, finishing up my own BPs, and starting to work on them. No news, except we will try to review the current bug management process
<hallyn> any questions for hggdh ?
<hallyn> moving on, then
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> I had prepared a list of bugs currently on our radar with comments. Since
<smb> those are a few I am wondering whether I should bore everybody by quickly
<smb> going over all of them or try to make a best of?
<SpamapS> smb: I'd be interested in any that you need feedback/testing on.
<hallyn> and i'd be interested in any you're working on, i think (might end up affecting me)
<smoser> smb, if you have prepared list, pastebin it
<hallyn> that smoser, always thinking
<smoser> and then give us the greatest-hits
<smb> Hm, there would be mostly one for ext4
<smb> ok, a second
* You're now known as ubuntulog_
 * smoser finds it almost annoying how always prepared smb is :)
<hallyn> smoser needs more annoying neighbors or something
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<smb> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/533098/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/533098/
<smb> For a lot of things I am finding myself wondering whether there could be any setup that would give us a dom0 similar to amazons
<hallyn> crimey longer list than i expected :)
<smb> hallyn, It just the many non-commiting comments
<hallyn> smb: so which ones of those did you defiantely want to discuss?
<smoser> smb, well, you can crawl logs and see reported xen versions
<smoser> somewhat consistent results can be found with centos 5.X (where X is variable)
<smb> I guess the one that might be about loosing interrupts, but iirc nobody from us could recreate the problems there
<smoser> but many of hte ones that are hitting us now are race and or new-hardware
<hallyn> smb: purely out of curiosity - for suspected kernel bugs involving bridging, who would likely end up being assigned?
<smb> hallyn, If it looks any server related I seem to be the point of dumping lately
<smb> hallyn, Though I probably try to get advice from tgardner on networking stuff
<hallyn> smb: thanks
<smoser> so, smb, my comments on above. lines 1-3, thank you thank you thank you.
<hallyn> is everyone still following the links, or does noone have further questions for smb?
<smoser> bug 614853, for 10.04, on 'linux-ec2' (which is no longer active), i really would like a solution, and am not terribly concerned about it being a hack.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 614853 in linux-ec2 (Ubuntu) "kernel panic divide error: 0000 [#1] SMP" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/614853
<smoser> maybe we should just put a BUG_ON statement there, so if we see fallout later we'll see messages in the console log that this was possibly related
<smb> smoser, i think jj wanted to look into the chance of upstream
<smb> Wanted to ask him today, but he had power issues earlier on as well
<smoser> ah. ok. we'll i'll leave you to it.
 * hallyn chuckles at the patch
<smoser> yeah
<hallyn> i wouldn't call that a hack, per se...
<hallyn> any action for that bug then?
<smb> Only because apparently those values should never be zero
<smb> So I heard the checks just avoid the problem
<smb> or hide it
<smb> personally I would not care as long as there is no real solution and the system does not crash anymore
<smb> I guess thats all so far
<hallyn> if someone cares they can trace where avg_load gets set to 0 :)
<hallyn> ok, any more q's for smb?  going once...
<smoser> smb, so i guess i should poke at the natty boot bug
<smoser> as we really really want to have that fixed by alpha1
<hallyn> smoser: which # is that?
<smoser> as we'd like to have an alpha that does more than send amazon money
<smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/669496
<smb> smoser, It feels likesomething crashes very early on. But without seing anything its hard to say
<smoser> well, yeah, other than there are messages in those logs. something goes amuck in kernel and it remounts ro
<smb> smoser, We probably should clarify when there are messages or not. The t1.micro did not produce anything for me
<smb> And the larger instance just booted fine
<smoser> well, running natty kernel on maverick user space is less an immediate concern
<smoser> than running natty kernel and natty user space
 * SpamapS coughs... and looks at the clock ... again
<smoser> in natty-natty, we get kernel messages in all cases (as far as I understood)
<hallyn> any actions?
<hallyn> [TOPIC] #
<hallyn> #
<MootBot> New Topic:  #
<SpamapS> seems like you guys should continue this discussion in #ubuntu-(devel|server|?)
<hallyn> Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<hallyn> doh
<hallyn> [TOPIC] #
<hallyn> #
<MootBot> New Topic:  #
<hallyn> Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<hallyn> grr
 * SpamapS likes # cake
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer
<smoser> thanks smoser
<smoser> thanks smb
<SpamapS> sommer's not here again
<hallyn> sommer is not here
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<smb> smoser, Damn completion. ;-)
<hallyn> kim0 is not here
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<zul> i still like turtles
<hallyn> SpamapS: you wanted to bring something up?
<SpamapS> Can we discuss doing SRU verification and/or assignment on bug triage days? Seems like we're getting *way way way* behind on the SRU list.
<Daviey> ack
<hallyn> SpamapS: in the one sru tracker list, i only saw two pending...
<SpamapS> hallyn: for verification yes
<hallyn> SpamapS: for me, what i'm behind on is actually nominating kvm bugs for lucid sru!
<hallyn> sorry to say
<Daviey> SpamapS: With much of the team being at UDS, and the event last week - i imagine many of us are behind on our duties for thaty
<SpamapS> but I mean the actual unassigned bugs accepted for a release
<zul> SpamapS: its also that way so the community can get involved that way as well
<hallyn> SpamapS: do you want to come up with a concrete proposal?
<hallyn> (since we're out of time) and email it?
<Daviey> sounds like a good starting point!!
<hallyn> [ACTION] SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<MootBot> ACTION received:  SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<SpamapS> Yeah I'll email ubuntu-server with my ideas.
<hallyn> cool, thanks
<hallyn> anything else to discuss?
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time: Tuesday 2010-11-23 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time: Tuesday 2010-11-23 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<hallyn> thanks, all
<hallyn> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<SpamapS> hallyn: thanks!!
<Daviey> \o/
<kirkland> \o/
<SpamapS> M
<skaet> thanks!
<SpamapS> C
<SpamapS> A
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<smb> \o
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<cking> o/
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<JFo> o/
<sconklin> \o/
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf> * TI - They are still stabilizing 2.6.35 based kernel for omap4. And they will probably skip 2.6.36 and move to 2.6.37 directly, but it won't happen before December.
<bjf> ..
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<smb> JFo, Long time no see :)
<JFo> :)
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (0 bugs, 12 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 1 Milestoned Bugs (14 across all packages) ====
<JFo>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (86 across all packages) ====
<JFo>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 1 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> This number is wrong. The only blueprint I see on the list is mine.
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:138 (up 14) since the last meeting 1 month ago ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> As these are now one of my main focus points. I will begin working specifically on them this week.
<JFo> The goal is to beat this number back to zero and then maintain as close to that as possible going forward.
<JFo> I'll be asking some of you to review bugs as needed to assess their viability and to improve my work on the overall
<JFo> list over time. Once I have the hang of it, I hope to submit those patches that make sense to the list for review.
<JFo> ..
<JFo> oh
<JFo> please note the blueprint note
<JFo> <JFo>  * 1 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> <JFo> This number is wrong. The only blueprint I see on the list is mine.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> nothing to report
<JFo> ..
<bjf> Is apw around? I know this is a day off for him but I'm just wondering.
<JFo> think he is gone now
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * remove need for sudo when loading ACPI tables from file (bug fix)
<cking>  * initial ACPI tables field checking - on common fields that give most issues
<cking>  * move kernel log tables into json format data
<cking>  * remove --fwts-debug
<cking>  * --stdout-summary outputs FAILED levels, e.g FAILED_HIGH, FAILED_LOW, etc
<cking>  * adjust log width to match tty width when logging to stdout
<cking>  * add aborted and skipped test to summary
<cking>  * cpufreq: make this an experimental test as it's not fully validated yet
<cking>  * check for non-compliant brightness levels
<cking>  * working on AML method sanity checking
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<smb> Small progress in the documentation
<smb> Will do the in tree doc next and try the tooling
<smb> ..
<smb> o
<smb> Forgot: for the drm33 upstream kernel I finished the scripting and have sent out the first patch queued notice
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<sconklin> We're roughly half way through the first trial of the new stable kernel process, which is outlined here;
<sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
<sconklin> Yesterday, we reverted commits for bugs without verification, and uploaded the resulting kernels this morning.
<sconklin> As soon as they are built, they will require QA and Cert testing before being released.
<sconklin> For Maverick, The following bugs had commits reverted due to lack of verification:
<sconklin> 598938   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
<sconklin> 637291   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back; no audio on laptop speakers but
<sconklin> 648871   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
<sconklin> 642892   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
<sconklin> 655386   no audio playback except with headphones but it is extremely quiet
<sconklin> 546769   no sound with Realtek ALC269 - on Sony Vaio VPCEB1S1E
<sconklin> 663642   DVI doesn't work at BeagleBoard xM rev A3
<sconklin> 580749   Pulseaudio is not running VT1708
<sconklin> For Lucid, The following bugs had commits reverted due to lack of verification:
<sconklin> 598938   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
<sconklin> 637291   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back; no audio on laptop speakers but
<sconklin> 642892   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
<sconklin> 655386   no audio playback except with headphones but it is extremely quiet
<sconklin> 546769   no sound with Realtek ALC269 - on Sony Vaio VPCEB1S1E
<sconklin> 580749   Pulseaudio is not running VT1708
<sconklin> 605047   Internal Microphone on Dell Lattitude e6410 does not work
<sconklin> 628776   HP NC511i Driver (be2net and be2scsi) is missing in kernel module udebs
<sconklin> 580749   Pulseaudio is not running VT1708
<sconklin> 465942   Hardware device disappearing from Sound Preferences on ASUS 0x104381b3
<sconklin> 587546   Pulseaudio fails after several seconds
<sconklin> General comments on the new stable cadence process:
<sconklin> * Thanks for all the help and understanding. This first test run through the process
<sconklin> steps has been very labor intensive, slow, and error prone.
<sconklin> * We are refining the process as we go. Details are being maintained on the wiki page linked above.
<sconklin> * Martin Pitt has agreed to change the verification tagging for bugs to "verification=[needed|failed|done]-<release>"
<sconklin>   in order to help us track verification in different released kernels within the same bug.
<smb> err would the alsa one not be probably be stabel?
<sconklin> ..
<smb> upstream stable I meant
<sconklin> it may be queued in upstream stable, we wouldn't know
<sconklin> (unless we looked)
<smb> I would have thought most of anything touching alsa came through a upstream stable update...
<smb> Just a feeling...
<bjf> smb, no, we've taken patches from diwic for example
<sconklin> we took some of these as prestable
<sconklin> and one caused a regression
<smb> ok, so those were just more than I could remember
<smb> I be quiet then
<JFo> will those get put back in for verification of the next kernel?
<sconklin> there are fewer patches that there are bugs listed
<JFo> of/in
<bjf> JFo, only if the request is made to do so via the bug
<JFo> ok, thanks bjf
<JFo> ..
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> JFo, it will not happen automagically
<JFo> I see
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (tgardner)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (tgardner)
<bjf> guess not
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin)
<tgardner> apw just uploaded -4.13 yesterday. the 2.6.37-rc2 is in the works.
<tgardner> ..
<sconklin> ||                         || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
<sconklin> || Dapper: Kernel          || 2.6.15-55.89  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Hardy:  Kernel          || 2.6.24-28.80  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       LRM             || 2.6.24.18-28.7||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Karmic: Kernel          || 2.6.31-22.68  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.31-214.30 || 2.6.31-214.32 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.31-307.21 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Lucid:  Kernel          || 2.6.32-25.45  || 3.6.32-26.47  || 14  ||  6 / 24     ||
<sconklin> || =       LBM             || 2.6.32-25.24  || 2.6.32-26.25  ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-209.25 || 2.6.32-211.27 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       fsl-imx51       || 2.6.31-608.19 || 2.6.31-608.20 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.32-309.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || = lts-backport-maverick || 2.6.35.22.34  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Maverick: Kernel        || 2.6.35-22.35  || 3.6.35-23.38  || 14  ||  12 / 30    ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-410.27 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ti-omap4        || 2.6.35-903.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo> 12 Natty Bugs
<JFo> 1025 Maverick Bugs (up 304 since the final maverick meeting)
<JFo> 1082 Lucid Bugs (up 68 since the final maverick meeting)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo> As this tag is deprecated, this listing is only to ensure that I keep it on my radar until
<JFo> changes to the apport hooks and my processing of the currently tagged bugs is completed.
<JFo>   * 3 natty bugs
<JFo>   * 396 maverick bugs (up 32 since the final maverick meeting)
<JFo>   * 177 lucid bugs (up 14 since the final maverick meeting)
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 20 maverick bugs
<JFo>   * 77 lucid bugs (up 13)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 147 maverick bugs
<JFo>   * 193 lucid bugs (up 16)
<JFo>   * 40 karmic bugs (up 3)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 13 maverick bugs
<JFo>   * 7 lucid bugs (up 1)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> Please note that I have removed Jaunty from the listing above.
<JFo>  
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> The next Kernel Bug Day will be next Tuesday. The focus will be on bugs with patches attached
<JFo> in order to begin the serious amount of work to be done there. I am planning to work with Andy
<JFo> and Tim this week to see how we will handle Team Bug Days since we are changing the way we do
<JFo> the Top Bugs each week. I will also begin working up a weekly report of the major bugs we are looking at.
<JFo> Chances are I will make some of that data available during this meeting going forward.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> please note that if we take any of those patches, we either need the HW to verify them or have a commitment from the community to verify them or they weill be reverted
<bjf> ..
<JFo> yep, noted..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> I talked with a number of the folks we work with to triage bugs during UDS, but, other than that,
<JFo> I have nothing to report on as far as status. I am, however, interested in your thoughts on holding
<JFo> another Kernel Triage Summit. We could do our own again, or we can make it a part of one of the
<JFo> community events such as Ubuntu Developer Week, Open Week, etc.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> based on all the effort that you've put into getting community involvement, did we get any value or would you have been better off just doing that amount of effort in triaging yourself?
<JFo> we saw some benefit, but I think it is too early to tell the impact
<JFo> I'd have to defer to those who presented and attended as to the usefulness
<JFo> I felt it was a success
<JFo> more so than I had hoped for
<JFo> ogasawara, what did you think?
<bjf> i'm asking about community triaging in general
<JFo> ah,
<JFo> we saw some improvement, but I don't know if it was commensurate with the effort involved
<JFo> in organizing our own I mean
<JFo> I think we could do one session at one of the other planned events
<JFo> and get the same level of return
<JFo> either that
<JFo> or we can generate some documentation on various areas and make it available online
<JFo> so as to limit the impact on everyones already limited free time
<JFo>  I'm open to suggestion offline
<JFo> ..
<JFo> in summary
<JFo> I think I could have just done the triage effort myself
<JFo> ..
<JFo> :)
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:27.
<JFo> thanks bjf
<kamal> thanks bjf
<sconklin> thanks bjf!
<jjohansen> thanks bjf
<smb> bjf, thanks
<SergioMeneses> hi o/
<mdeslaur> hello
<jjohansen> hi
<SergioMeneses> mdeslaur, jjohansen \o
<jdstrand> o/
 * sbeattie waves
<kees> \o
<jdstrand> kees: are you running the meeting, or shall I?
<kees> jdstrand: you can, I'm still trying to collect my status report to email out
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:16. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> welcome to the ubuntu-security team meeting, postponed from yesterday
<jdstrand> I guess I'll start, but I have several items to discuss at the end
<jdstrand> so far this week I have been finishing up things so I can focus on dbus/apparmor integration
<jdstrand> I uploaded the iptables merge and did the libnfnetlink MIR done
<jdstrand> I am reviewing some sponsored libvirt uploads as well
<jdstrand> once that is done, I will dive into dbus, and then finally be able to talk to jjohansen about it
<jjohansen> \o/
<jdstrand> later in the week I hope to finish my merges and test thunderbird for the 3.0 -> 3.1 migration on lucid
<jdstrand> I have a sneaking suspicion another firefox is coming, so I may need to do that some
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next (let's let kees go after sbeattie)
<mdeslaur> I'm going to be doing some merges this week
<mdeslaur> and I have a quagga update coming out
<jdstrand> oh, I forgot, I need to follow up on the lucid apparmor SRU
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: (sorry for interrupting)
<mdeslaur> I'll be investigating a way to test python-paste
<mdeslaur> and I have a virt-manager SRU to do
<mdeslaur> I think we're releasing flash updates today, so I have that to package
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie?
 * sbeattie is on community this week.
<sbeattie> as part of that,I'm working on sponsering a proftpd upload.
<sbeattie> I also have an openssl update to push out.
<sbeattie> beyond that, I want to poke more than the token amount that I have on the maverick apparmor sru.
<sbeattie> and will help out with the lucid one, as well.
<sbeattie> I think that's all I've got.
<sbeattie> kees?
<kees> okay, did a bunch of kernel work last week
<kees> the XD_DISABLE patches are in a tip branch for testing
<kees> I'm going to try to get them into Ubuntu too, for full happiness
<jdstrand> sbeattie: are you aware of report-todo-sponsoring from UCT and security-fake-sync from security-tools?
<kees> drosenbe's dmesg_restrict went in upstream, so I'm going to try to get that enabled by default in Ubuntu (see ubuntu-devel email)
<kees> this week, I'm on triage, and I'll be continuing to chase up upstream constification work
<sbeattie> jdstrand: not so much; I'll look at them, thanks.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: feel free to ping me when you are ready to look at them (esp security-fake-sync)
<kees> I've got lvm2 to review for mdeslaur, and a stack of PHP audits to do too.
<kees> that's it from me.
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> are there any non-status update items from anyone before I dive in?
 * jdstrand takes that as a no
<jdstrand> so first off...
<jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur, sbeattie: if you guys haven't already done so, we need to retartget any maverick (and lucid) bps to natty
<kees> jdstrand: oh, fun, yes.
<jdstrand> this needs to be done by Nov 18 (thursday), so really tomorrow eod
<sbeattie> ah, right, thanks.
<jdstrand> pitti is going to redo the reports or somethings, and I think the hard deadline for the bps is the 18th
<jdstrand> I have the list we discussed that I can provide outside of this meeting if needed
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: that would be nice, yea
<jdstrand> (and all that applies to me too-- I haven't already done any of this)
<jdstrand> k
<mdeslaur> do we need to recreate the blueprints, or can we just switch them over?
<jdstrand> also, at UDS we were asked by wendar to discuss and put in the wiki a sort of security checklist for ARB
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: there should be a way to just retarget them
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: we can talk to robbiew about it-- he indicated it should be easy
<mdeslaur> ok, I'll try
<mdeslaur> ARB?
<kees> Application Review Board, iirc?
<jdstrand> I have put our discussion (and a couple of extra things I thought of) in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/SecurityChecklist
<jdstrand> Application Review Board, yes
<robbiew> mdeslaur: jdstrand yeah...send me a list and I can do it
<mdeslaur> ETOOMANYACRONYMS
<jdstrand> if each of us could review that wiki page that would be great
<jdstrand> we can discuss in #ubuntu-hardened
<jdstrand> I'd like to get that to wendar soon since they are moving forward in various ways
<jdstrand> lastly, I'd like to encourage us to strive to be more transparent
<sbeattie> jdstrand: re ARB recommendations, what about long term suggestions to ease sandboxing mediation?
<jdstrand> eg, send activity reports to the whole team, and perhaps announce on a "dailyish" basis what we are working on
<jdstrand> sbeattie: I think that is definitely worth discussion, but not sure that document is where it should happen. perhaps talk to wendar about that
<jdstrand> sbeattie: I know some discussion is happening in ubuntu-devel@
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: sounds like a good idea
<jdstrand> we talked about being more transparent a bit last week (ad-hoc)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: do we not send our activity reports to security@ right now?
<mdeslaur> (and robbiew)
<jdstrand> I know I find it all too easy to get my nose in my work and forget to communicate what I am working on
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: not all of us (looks sternly in mirror) are strict about doing that.
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: yes, that is what we all should be doing
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: oh :)
<robbiew> well.../me stopped collating them for ubuntu-devel
<mdeslaur> ok, so how about we announce what we're going to do when we arrive in the morning?
<jdstrand> missing a week or sending it late isn't an issue. it is just nice that we know what each other is working on so we know what to help with or pick up
<jdstrand> robbiew: it seems a lot of teams are not doing that any more... I'm not sure it should go to ubuntu-devel@, but I certainly find it useful to see what the others are doing
<jjohansen> err, I would suggest checking mail before announcing what you are going to do
<kees> yeah
<robbiew> yeah...I'm a +1 on the team knowing
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I am not sure it has to be even that formalized
<robbiew> as for ubuntu-devel...seems to get lost in the noise, imo
<jdstrand> I just want to make sure we are coordinating appropriately and in general being a team
<jdstrand> I know that mdeslaur and sbeattie picked up the same update some time recently
<mdeslaur> I sure am curious what you guys are doing sometimes :P
<mdeslaur> so I'm all for it
<jdstrand> plus, you guys are so awesome I like to feel awesome by proxy by knowing what you are working on :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<jdstrand> I feel pretty strongly that we shouldn't feel like just a bunch of individuals working totally independently. we should foster a sense of team and a great way of doing that is sharing our work
<jdstrand> (ie, sharing with others what we are doing as well as workload)
<mdeslaur> that, and bringing in a box of donuts to work once in a while
<jdstrand> anyway, my two cents :)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I like chocolate with sprinkles and jelly. at least for next time :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: ugh, you can have those ones :)
<jdstrand> I might surprise you after that
<jdstrand> hehe
<jdstrand> kees, sbeattie, mdeslaur: what do you think about being more vocal with the team on what we are working on?
<jjohansen> generally I think its a good idea
<jjohansen> but its easy to over do it
<jdstrand> (some concensus would be nice and our ad-hoc discussion last week didn't really come to a conclusion)
<jdstrand> jjohansen: not suggesting twitter :)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: +1 from me, I'm just not very good at doing that.
<jdstrand> I don't think I am either
<jjohansen> jdstrand: oh, so the new fb messaging? :P
<jdstrand> but if we strive for it, I think we'll figure out the right balance
<jdstrand> it isn't about being overly chatty or unproductive... just a little sharing witht the team
<jjohansen> my only suggestion is that I think it works better if its kept informal
<jjohansen> yep
<jdstrand> jjohansen: I would agree
<kees> I'm for it; informal is good.
<sbeattie> jjohansen: I plan to broadcast updates via fingerd.
<jjohansen> awesome!
 * jdstrand is just trying to encourage a little sharing which might lead to cool/productive discussion
<mdeslaur> well, how about this: if I forget to mention what I'm working on, a simple "Hey, mdeslaur, what you up to?" to remind me would be cool
<jdstrand> that sounds good
<jdstrand> that goes for me too
<jdstrand> we can see how it goes and if we are bugging each other it is ok to say so :)
<jdstrand> alrighty, seems we've probably beat that horse enough
<jdstrand> anything else for the security team?
<jdstrand> going once
<jdstrand> going twice
<mdeslaur> sold! to the lady with the hat
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:49.
<jdstrand> :)
<jdstrand> thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<mdeslaur> thanks everyone
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<jdstrand> \o/
<huats> sorry I am late
<highvoltage> for?
<PontusOhman> huats: > The meeting will begin in +45 min
<huats> rrrggg thanks to the daylight savings...
<huats> PontusOhman, thanks
<huats> highvoltage, Loco Council meeting
<PontusOhman> huats: Check: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<huats> PontusOhman, yeah I know
<Nafallo> huats: well, to be fair, the fridge calendar and the Agenda says different times.
<huats> just my memory
<huats> :)
<PontusOhman> czajkowski: When will the meeting begin?! The agenda says 21.00 for me, that's 20 minutes ago! The fridge says 22.00 for me, thats about 40 minutes?!
<popey> ola
<PontusOhman> popey: =)
<popey> LoCo Council meeting is in 35 mins yes?
<Nafallo> popey: depends... are you following the calendar or the agenda? :-)
<PontusOhman> popey: I dunno! The agenda says it should started about 25 minutes ago, the fridge says in the next 35 minutes
<popey> ah
<popey> oops
<Nafallo> obviously it should be :30! :-D
<itnet7> I'll fix the agenda, I'm there
<highvoltage> I wish people in countries with DST would pest their government to do away with it!
<Nafallo> hi itnet7 :-)
<itnet7> highvoltage: we've tried
<itnet7> hey there Nafallo !
<huats> popey, I arrived 15 minutes ago saying "sorry I am late"
<huats> :)
<popey> haha
<popey> sorry I'm late
<huats> and hello popey and itnet7 btw :)
<Nafallo> highvoltage: but but... not being on the timeline for half a year is such fun...
<Nafallo> popey: you're late and early at the same time :-P
<PontusOhman> O_o :D
<popey> whats the plan then? shall we start at :30 ?
<popey> or bump to the next hour?
<popey> I'm happy either way
<PontusOhman> If we will start in 30 minutes, I will pass it over to my chairman Farmfield
<Nafallo> popey: we are missing people though?
<popey> who?
<popey> czajkowski is standing next to me :)
<popey> just getting her to get her laptop out
<popey> start in 2 mins huats / itnet7 ?
<Nafallo> popey: hah. fair enough. paultag and leogg then? :-)
<itnet7> fine with me
<huats> popey, euh 32 minutes I think
<PontusOhman> Can I get an answer on, why was it two diffrent times for this meeting?! The Agenda told me 20.00 UTC (For me it was 30 minutes ago) and the fridge tells me it's 21.00 CET (In about 30 minutes)
<popey> PontusOhman: daylight savings time
<huats> popey, since there is something that is not really fixed I would be in favout of the latest
<PontusOhman> popey: > That's s*cks
<popey> ok,that would suit me and czajkowski too given I'm just bringing lasagne out of the oven :)
<popey> PontusOhman: sorry, we'll fix it
<popey> it happens every 6 months unfortunately
<huats> (my meat balls are just going to the oven to be honnest :))
<PontusOhman> It's ok :)
<huats> popey, have a nice meal my friend :)
<popey> ok, so in 29 mins
<mghg__> popey: you can not blame it on daylight savings time. It is 20:00 UTC according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda, and 21:00 GMT according to http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar.
<popey> I can't ?
<itnet7> mghg__: refresh
<popey> that link shows 21:00 LoCo Council Meeting here.
<Farmfield> I think someone is missing that it's changed this year. Did UK even have daylight savings before?
<popey> yes, we've had DST for about 50 years or so
<czajkowski> well these things happens
<czajkowski> and it's only happened once
<czajkowski> and the agenda has only 2 items. so not the end of the world
<Farmfield> No prob's folks
<Farmfield> :)
<Nafallo> Farmfield: yes. we have BST every year :-)
<Farmfield> We as in we Swedes? ;)
<Farmfield> To long ago I lived in UK to remember...
<mghg__> Two different sources gives different meeting starting times. Neither UTC and GMT change depending on seasons, i.e. daylight savings do not apply
<Farmfield> There's a point where things are what they are and we passed that point a while back now, hehe... The meeting is in 20 minutes and the 'why' or 'which time is correct' isn't really important... ;)
<Nafallo> Farmfield: well said
<Farmfield> Nafallo: When you takn as much as I do you're bound to say something intelligent once and again... ;)
<Farmfield> (t a L k)
<Nafallo> heh
<PontusOhman> Will be here in a few seconds... Darn thÃ© :)
<PontusOhman> Time for GO GO GO?! It's 5 minutes late :D
<czajkowski> aloha
<czajkowski> PontusOhman: 3 mins in fact
<czajkowski> lets not get ahead of ourselves
<PontusOhman> :)
<popey> yes, lets be behind by about an hour
<Nafallo> czajkowski: 3:30 at the time he said it ;-)
<czajkowski> Nafallo: lets not be a brat shall we
<peetra> _o/
<Nafallo> heh
<PontusOhman> O_o
<czajkowski> aloha
<huats> hello
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:05. The chair is czajkowski.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<czajkowski> aloha to tonights meeting
<czajkowski> [topic] Sweden loco re approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sweden loco re approval
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwedishTeam/ReApprovalApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwedishTeam/ReApprovalApplication
<popey> Who's here form Sweden?
<czajkowski> huats: leogg itnet7 popey evening folks
 * Nafallo looks for Farmfield 
<peetra> _o/ I am a Swesish speaking Finnish girl, active in the Swedish LoCo. _o/
 * PontusOhman Is from Sweden and I'm the Team Contact for Ubuntu Sweden
<Farmfield> I'm the TeamLeader
<leogg> hi all
<Farmfield> ...for the Swedish LoCo
<czajkowski> PontusOhman: Farmfield nice arrangement
<czajkowski> Farmfield: so care to tell us a bit about your team please
<Hund> Im here to. Im one of the admins.
<amelia> I'm also from the Swedish LoCo, but i'm one of the serveradmins so i'll keep my mouth shut for most of the evening. :)
<Nafallo> IRC channel founder and ubuntu-se.org host â
<czajkowski> amelia: heh
<itnet7> Hey there!
<huats> finally itnet7 :P
<czajkowski> Farmfield: ???
<Nafallo> meh, arrow on wrong side of the text :-P
<itnet7> Sorry :-P looking at the re-approval
<Farmfield> The team. We have a TL and a TC, a quite new combo. Before that (18 months ago) there was 2TC's.  We run phpBB as forum and have 3 active admins there. We also have about 5 active moderators. Then we have HakanS - who is here - who's in charge of our Drupal Portal.
<czajkowski> Farmfield: sounds great from the admin side of things, what about your community
 * HakanS is here
<Farmfield> We have a stabile community but is lacking in growth.
<czajkowski> Farmfield: how many active members do you have
 * Nafallo shims in and says the irc channel has about 120 people most of the time
<Farmfield> We've been speculating about the 'why' but it might be Ubuntu is to good.
<Farmfield> Growth come from new visitors seeking support and then engaging as enthisiasts. That's in decline
<Farmfield> We have 200 active members.
<peetra> ppl don't need the support in the same way any  more, most stuff can be solved with google.
 * PontusOhman Is a good example, 2009 new to Ubuntu, 2010 sleeping admin and active Team Contact for Ubuntu Sweden :)
<Farmfield> 200 people is exluding 50-100 active on IRC. I'm not much of an IRC'er sÃ¥ forgot that. Sry.
<czajkowski> Farmfield: well you have 59 members on launchpad but 16000 people on forums
<czajkowski> massive difference
<czajkowski> can you perhaps tell us why there is a lack of interest in becoming part of the team
<peetra> But with an average of 3000-4000 visitors/day i think it is a very needed site, even if the community is not spamming it all the time/ every five minute.
<Farmfield> people register to ask how to change the background picture and then they don't need more support, they won't register at Launchpad
<Farmfield> ;)
<peetra> Launchpad is difficult and hard to find anything at all in especially for newbies (like me)
 * Nafallo wasn't aware we had a launchpad group...
<PontusOhman> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-se
<itnet7> Farmfield: I see you have an irc channel, do you do monthly meetings?
<Farmfield> I gotta go for 2 minutes - my son is having a breakdown.
<czajkowski> well most members sign up on lp
<peetra> No monthly meetings
<czajkowski> PontusOhman: can you tell us about events you run
<czajkowski> what do you do for face to face events
<Nafallo> now we have 60 people on LP :-P
<PontusOhman> Will try to do my best here so...
<peetra> i signed up on lp by mistake. ^^ It came with the Ubuntu One thingy?
<PontusOhman> We got some ppl on different places over Sweden that have release parties in the spring and in the autumn
<czajkowski> PontusOhman: thanks
<Farmfield> Condoms people. Use them.
<Farmfield> And yes, I'm back.
<peetra> *61
<PontusOhman> And if you ask us about monthly meetings in the LoCo, no not at this moment we have it.
<PontusOhman> But I have plans to bring it up for us in the future :)
<peetra> [IDEA] Monthly meetings at the IRC channel
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Monthly meetings at the IRC channel
<czajkowski> PontusOhman: any regular meet ups or life outside of the forums
<czajkowski> i'm not saying forums are bad
<czajkowski> just 16000 v 61 people is a massive differene
<PontusOhman> czajkowski: Yes, we have!
<peetra> The forums rules!
<PontusOhman> As a fact I'm running a GNU/LUG in my town that's meets up every month
<Nafallo> I believe part of the trouble here is awareness of the launchpad group.
<czajkowski> PontusOhman: a GNU/LUG isn't a loco
<Nafallo> I've been with the LoCo from the very very very beginning, and I didn't know about such a group.
<Farmfield>  czajkowski: The Swedish LoCo is focused on support - even though everything else is there. But focusing on support equals phpBB and that's why we're 16.000 + members in phpBB
<peetra> I can't see why we need new Ubuntu users in the lp-team? That is the problem, can czajkowski tell us why?
<leogg> peetra: for translations and bug reports?
<huats> What about Team reports ?
<huats> are you doing them ? if not do you plan to ?
<czajkowski> peetra: for being a part of the ubuntu community
<peetra> okej, so we should get all the windows emigrants directly involved with bug reports and translating? :O
<Nafallo> leogg: translations is mostly handled directly upstream. we have some great guys working on that. we tend to not use launchpad, but commit straight.
<popey> 16000 is a significant chunk of people
<itnet7> Peetra no one said to get all of them into LP, even though that would be awesome for a 16k+ team in LP
<peetra> :D
<itnet7> but as people get involved with the team, the natural thing would be to encourage them to join your LoCo and help the team contribute, even teach them how
<Nafallo> I'm not sure how bug reports would tie in to a launchpad group specifically? also, most of peoples problems can be solved in forums/on irc. it's very seldom I've seen people with genuine bugs on the IRC channel
<PontusOhman> czajkowski: If we lock beyond the the release parties... Some groups (cities / towns) from the LoCo meets up
<leogg> Nafallo: bug reporting is a nice and easy way to contribute back to the community :)
<Nafallo> leogg: yes, if the problems are genuine bugs... :-)
<Farmfield> I must ask  czajkowski and popey; What about 16.000 people? It's the abount of registered members - many of them not more than casual visitors asking 1-3 questions - generated since fall 2004. It's not a massive amount of people, it's a long time.
<Nafallo> I'm not debating the importance of bug reports here :-)
<czajkowski> Farmfield: as i said it's not a bad thing, i just wonder why they are not part of your loco
<czajkowski> being on a forum isn't the same thing
<leogg> Nafallo: me neither, I just don't understand why there are so few people on lp :)
<popey> We have plenty of documentation detailing how people can get involved in Ubuntu - I don't think this meeting should be trying to cover all of that
 * peetra helps the Swedish community with phpBB and is shore that Ubuntu will manage w/o her raporting bugs
<popey> What I would like to see is more documentation from the Swedish team of advocacy and other ubuntu community 'work' done over the last year.
<czajkowski> peetra: if everyone took that attitude we'd have no bugs reported though
<peetra> I haven't time to do everything
<Nafallo> leogg: because if me, as one of the first three loco members, doesn't know about such a group.. I can assure you Mr Member doesn't know about it either :-)
<Farmfield> itnet7: For us, joining the team doesn't involve lp, it involves projects within the LoCo. We havent been good utulizing lp for organizing the LoCo, we've used out own forum.
<popey> Whilst forum based support and discussion is fantastic (and you've clearly got a significant number of people using the forums) a LoCo team is also about advocacy, bug jams, triaging, translating.. building the community around the team and encouraging people to get involved in the project.
<czajkowski> Farmfield: do you use the loco directory ?
<popey> IMO
<popey> Farmfield: when you say 'organizing the loco' what does that mean?
<Farmfield>  czajkowski: I say as 'Bones' on TV: I don't know what that meens.
<PontusOhman> popey: > We got documentation for 8.04 LTS, 9.04, 9.10 and 10.04 LTS, and 10.10 is comming up! Both the Desktop and the server is coverd in there :)
<itnet7> Farmfield: What happens if you lose your hosting?
<czajkowski> Farmfield: you've never heard of the loco directory?
<czajkowski> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-se
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-se
<Farmfield> czajkowski: Noops. But I guess I should be really ashamed.
<itnet7> Or if you happen to burn out, does everyone in the team have all the administrative details?
<Farmfield> itnet7: Whi os 'you'?
<Nafallo> itnet7: I'm hosting them... :-)
<Farmfield> itnet7: Who is 'you' in that question?
 * peetra likes Nafallo
<itnet7> Farmfield: are you the leader?
<Farmfield> itnet7: TeamLeader, yes.
<cmpitg> A TeamLeader never heard of the Team?
<itnet7> Well, teams use launchpad to help manage their LoCo's
<itnet7> for the most part
<Farmfield> In general: We have 2 backups made daily to external servers, backup server admins a.s.o... That's not an issue at all.
<amelia> itnet7: we're hosting the server in UK (nafallo takes care of that), within the serveradmin group i can assure we could have another server up an running within a day and we also keep backups in two different locations in sweden.
<leogg> Farmfield: IMO as a team leader you should be more aware of what's going on outside the LoCo
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the re approval of the Swedish loco reapproval. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the re approval of the Swedish loco reapproval. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from czajkowski. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<MootBot> Private -1 vote received. 0 for, 2 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<huats> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from huats. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
<popey> I'd like to see more real life events, and other community contribution to the project
<popey> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from popey. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
<leogg> same here
<leogg> -1
<itnet7> +0
<Farmfield> leogg: I am, but it's all a question about the subject. Which subject are you referring to?
<MootBot> -1 received from leogg. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
<MootBot> Abstention received from itnet7. 0 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -5
<czajkowski> #endvote
<popey> Sorry guys and gals..
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 5 against. 1 abstained. Total: -5
<leogg> Farmfield: are you subscribed to the locoteams mailing list?
<czajkowski> [agreed] sweden loco un approved
<MootBot> AGREED received:  sweden loco un approved
<Farmfield> insane. Show me one loco who match us
<PontusOhman> leogg: > I am
<popey> We can certainly help to get you moving in the right direction.
<Farmfield> And we have 6 years running now
<Nafallo> Farmfield: actually no. 5 at the most.
<leogg> PontusOhman: that's great
<PontusOhman> I'm the TC for Ubuntu Sweden
<czajkowski> [topic] Vietnam  loco re approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  Vietnam  loco re approval
<czajkowski> anyone here from Vietnam
<Farmfield> Nafallo: Founded fall 2004 according to the wiki?
<czajkowski> ?
<ptkhanh> o/
<afterlastangel> yes
<afterlastangel> 1+
<CoconutCrab> I am here
<cmpitg> Me, too
<CoconutCrab> o/
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VietnameseTeam/ReApprovalApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VietnameseTeam/ReApprovalApplication
<ducgiang_8888> me
<cmpitg> I'm a new secretary for Ubuntu-VN
<czajkowski> ok welcome
<afterlastangel> Hello, everyone.
<czajkowski> so who is the team leader or point of contact for this meeting ?
<PontusOhman> We will come back :)
<afterlastangel> according wiki this is CoconutCrab
<czajkowski> [link] http://www.ubuntu-vn.org/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu-vn.org/
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: this is our portal, for news and local activity
<cmpitg> czajkowski: The portal is being very general
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> CoconutCrab: so care to tell us about your team ?
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: we also provide support for new user via web-based IRC form the portal
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: I am the team contact but currently busy with my schoolwork, so I will ask my friend to do the talking
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: afterlastangel will do it
<afterlastangel> CoconutCrab: thanks.
<CoconutCrab> and I will aid him, together with cmpitg and ptkhanh
<cmpitg> Sure
<czajkowski> ok can someone please tell the council about the team please
<cmpitg> afterlastangel represents team from the South, me from the North
<cmpitg> Okay, me first
<cmpitg> The Ubuntu-VN community has around 16,000 members, current ~50 most active members
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: did you mean how many people are their in out council?
<czajkowski> afterlastangel: no the loco council.
<cmpitg> We have 1,300 active members per months
<cmpitg> czajkowski: Okay, I see
<peetra> Okey folks, I checked some facts and over 10 000/ 16 000 users have actually logged in  to the forum the last year, I am very suprised to find such a great user rate.
<cmpitg> The local council have ~20 members
<cmpitg> 15 members active every week
<czajkowski> peetra: we've moved onto another team please
<peetra> oh, shit
<czajkowski> cmpitg: what council is this
<peetra> srry
<cmpitg> czajkowski: Ubuntu-VN Loco Administration Team
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: ptkhanh, afterlastangel, cmpitg, excrypf and me are from #ubuntu-vn
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: I will take over the talking from here
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: is that okay with you?
<popey> if it's difficult we could do the approval via email?
<popey> if the translation is difficult we can give more time
<CoconutCrab> Ubuntu-vn is around 6 years old Loco
<CoconutCrab> we have a forum, and irc channel #ubuntu-vn and a mailling list
<CoconutCrab> but the forum is the most active
<czajkowski> CoconutCrab: can you tell us why so there are activities only going back to september this year listed http://wiki.ubuntu-vn.org/index.php/LocoTeam_Activities
<CoconutCrab> because it is the most popular way of communicating on the internet
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: because before that, us student have to do the exam :), also summer vacation
<CoconutCrab> I know that isn't a good answer
<czajkowski> CoconutCrab: but you've said you're active for 6 years
<CoconutCrab> but most of ubuntu-vn members are students and pupil
<cmpitg> That's right
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: the old people has moved away, like the founder
<CoconutCrab> we haven't heard from him for more than one year
<cmpitg> Also
<CoconutCrab> like me, I have only joined ubuntu-vn for 2 years
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: the /LocoTeam_Activities are log since the first approval
<czajkowski> right but you were approved 2 years ago and only list event since september 2010
<cmpitg> Because we consist of mostly students, offline activities are prefered
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: no
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: just about months.
<czajkowski> afterlastangel: well the wiki page is then not up to date.
<CoconutCrab> another reason is that before september, we didn't have a secretary to do the reporting
<leogg> afterlastangel: you were approved a couple of months ago?
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: we were approved April this year
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: their are some misunderstanding
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: semi-approved :)
<CoconutCrab> czajkowski: with a condition to re-approve in the next few months
<leogg> CoconutCrab: yes, I remember... we asked you to come back
<cmpitg> czajkowski: As you see, the wiki page was created recently, but it already has plenty of information
<CoconutCrab> leogg: :)
<cmpitg> czajkowski: Since we now have a secrectary
<czajkowski> it's a wiki page, you don't need a secretary to update a wiki page.
<czajkowski> anyone can do it
<cmpitg> czajkowski: But we need some one who do the report and summarize them
<cmpitg> czajkowski: Make statistics, strategies, ...
<cmpitg> czajkowski: This has to be done in a centralized way
<cmpitg> czajkowski: So that the activities could be more effective
<czajkowski> cmpitg: hmm not really tbh.
<cmpitg> czajkowski: This could be improved
<cmpitg> czajkowski: In a very rapid period of time
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: we have just  run as a Approved Loco team for 7 months and had 4 activities offline
<cmpitg> Actually 4 "big" activities
<cmpitg> We have weekly and monthly meetings an AUF/CNF centers
<cmpitg> Where we provide support, trial, ... everything related to LP and Ubuntu
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: I mean we want to have more activity out the forum and the Internet, could bring ubuntu to more people in Vietnam where the Internet access maybe luxury
<cmpitg> From OOo.org training, Ubuntu tips and tricks, installing and using, ...
<cmpitg> We have constantly 2 people working on it every Saturday afternoon
<cmpitg> So every one could find us anytime
<czajkowski> ok think we're ready to vote
<cmpitg> Okay
<afterlastangel> czajkowski: we forgot adding the 10.04 Release party .. I think this is the fifth activity
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the re approval of the Vietnamese loco.  ONLY UBUNTU LOCO COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the re approval of the Vietnamese loco.  ONLY UBUNTU LOCO COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from czajkowski. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<huats> 0
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 1 for, 1 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<leogg> 0
<popey> 0
<popey> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from popey. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<leogg> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from leogg. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<huats> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from huats. 1 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
<czajkowski> itnet7: ping
<czajkowski> well 4/6 of us have voted
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 1 against. 3 abstained. Total: 0
<Nafallo> 5/6
<popey> yes, 5/6
<cmpitg> And...?
<czajkowski> [agreed] vietnamese team not approved
<MootBot> AGREED received:  vietnamese team not approved
<CoconutCrab> okay, thank you all
<afterlastangel> is this a new mechanism of voting?
<huats> I would expect a better applications that put more highlight on the great work I am sure you are doing
<popey> afterlastangel: no
<cmpitg> It's just the matter of "showing", IMO
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:59.
<czajkowski> thanks folks for coming
<huats> We would like to come back at the next meeting
<huats> with a new application
<CoconutCrab> well, we haven't created a habit of reporting everything we do yet
<cmpitg> May I have a question?
<huats> cmpitg, sure
<cmpitg> What did the meeting time change?
<leogg> i got to run... sorry :( good evening all
<cmpitg> It changed 2 minutes after the last fixed time?
<popey> it was a mistake
<popey> we had an inconsistency between the calendar and the wiki
<popey> some of us go by the wiki, some by the calendar
<cmpitg> That causes a lot of problems for us
<popey> so some turned up at 20:00 UTC and others thought it was 21:00
<popey> yeah, it should not have happened, sorry about that
<czajkowski> this is the first meeting since dst and it was just unfortunate will be fixed for next month
<cmpitg> Okay, I see
<cmpitg> So if our team is not approved, would we have a chance to do it again?
<itnet7> sorry... family issues
<popey> Absolutely
<cmpitg> Next month, right?
<czajkowski> cmpitg: i'd give it a few monthws
<czajkowski> months
<popey> We generally recommend 3 months
<cmpitg> I see
<cmpitg> Thank you
<cmpitg> Next time, we will definitely get it
<popey> awesome!
<popey> team reports would help
<cmpitg> There is a sort of reorganizing our LocoTeam
<popey> regular meetings..
<popey> if you need any help, do get in contact with the loco council
<cmpitg> So, everything is kind of a mess at the moment
<cmpitg> popey: Thank you :-). I will
<cmpitg> It's 5:05 AM our local time, probably night at your time.  Good night and see you later!
<popey> really sorry about the time mess up!
<j_baer> Hello :-)  I have a meetbot question.
<persia> #ubuntu-bots might be a good place to ask it.
<j_baer> Thanks ... I will switch.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-17
<robbiew> o/
<psurbhi> o/
<ev> hi
<azul_> lo
<cjwatson> hey
<robbiew> azul_: is this your final irc nic?
<robbiew> lol
<mvo> hello
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Foundations Team Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team Lightning Round
<robbiew> barry is sick
<robbiew> cjwatson: since I know you have an extremely interesting report...you can go first :P
<cjwatson> hah
<cjwatson> done: loads of merges, plymouth/upstart interop patches, working on new grub snapshot packaging (should help with flicker-free boot), figuring out what spec drafting I need to do
<cjwatson> todo: draft a small handful of specs, continue with new grub, polish off a few easy work items
<cjwatson> --
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> ev: anything? (know you've been hangin with the sheiks
<robbiew> lol
<cjwatson> ARGH DAMN SOYUZ
<cjwatson> (sorry)
<robbiew> turret's
<ev> very short week; on holiday in Abu Dhabi (yay Vettel and Red Bull!).  Working on ubiquity-preserve-home in partman-auto.
<ev> done
<mvo> ubiquity-perserve-home++
<robbiew> mvo: you can go next ;)
<mvo> short week: mon,tue vacation; friday afternoon sick :(
<mvo> added some workitems; work on rnr-server, work on s-c client review branch; upload new squid-deb-proxy; Support-timeframe LP branch (week 5?): finally had to setup a full LP dev environment :/ (that took a bit); unattended-upgrades: merge stuff; update-manager: bugfixes in i586 detection, upload SRU, work on better EOL presentation, enable maverick->natty
<mvo> todo: check WI/spec, work on rnr-server
<mvo> (done)
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> psurbhi: ?
<psurbhi> Nov 11th onwards: short week, was unwell half of last week
<psurbhi> btrfs - grub - testing - got a bug from a user, reproducing that.
<psurbhi> looking at mountall code, understanding dbus.
<psurbhi> todo - draft spec for event based initramfs, make a package of btrfs for grub and test more.
<psurbhi> (done)
<cjwatson> oh yeah, plymouth/upstart interop involved sucking dbus into my head too
<robbiew> thanx...glad you're feel better
<cjwatson> my sympathies
<robbiew> heh
<psurbhi> thanks :)
<psurbhi> much needed!
<robbiew> azul_: ?
<mvo> psurbhi: how is the license stuff with grub going?
<azul_> robbiew: re nick - well, maybe. "jodh" isn't exactly gr8, but jhunt, etc taken and jamesodhunt too long :)
<azul_> one sec...
<cjwatson> I liked "ifdef" :)
<psurbhi> mvo, i did not get a chance to talk to cmason, but spoke to Peter Anvin and he happens to think that the license should be resolved :)
<robbiew> how 'bout Keybuk2
<robbiew> lol
<doko> just for completeness: eglibc backports, second change in linking behaviour, spent most time with an internal project
<cjwatson> should as in ought to be in the future, or should as in believes it is now?
<azul_> hmm.
<azul_> weeks exec summary: lp:#674146 + pain
<azul_> :)
<mvo> either Keybuk++ or Keybuk-- depending on performance
<cjwatson> (silly ambiguous language)
<azul_> detail: Met up with Scott on Friday, which I found very useful.
<azul_> Re lp:#674146 - Created a patch to disable optimizations for building
<azul_> dpkg on armel for cjwatson (temporary fix). Hacking dpkg down to a basic
<azul_> testcase is proving tricky (who _wrote_ that code? :). Will persist with
<azul_> this. Currently isolating specific gcc-4.5 optimizer flag causing SEGV.
<azul_> This is hampered by speed of kakadu (and doko compiling at same time :)
<azul_> Wishing "configure" wouldn't attempt to parse CFLAGS (as it can't).
<azul_> Plan to put lp:#674146 aside to concentrate on upstart for rest of week.
<cjwatson> yeah, as I said, no rush on that bug now I think
<ev> azul_: what about jhung? ;)
<azul_> ... once I've updated lp bug with details of currently running optimizer tests.
<azul_> arf arf
<mvo> we know who wrote the code!
<robbiew> jhung...lol
<robbiew> azul_: thanks!
<robbiew> doko: ?
<doko> gahh, was wondering why kakadu was that slow ...
<azul_> doko: soz - I've been compiling like mad on that box. I asked is about any other atmel kit, but apparently that is it :(
<doko> ok, stopped my build
<azul_> doko: thx
<ScottK> robbiew should send you a http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika - They come with Karmic, but building in Natty chroots works well.
<robbiew> or ScottK could send you one...since he got 2 for free! :P
<azul_> !!
<doko> I ordered one, didn't arrive yet
<ScottK> robbiew: Mine are all busy.
<robbiew> doko: btw, that's 100% expensible
<robbiew> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> done: met up with $(get-current-irc-nick-for jamesodhunt) in London on Friday, very productive and useful, we'll be doing more of these
<Keybuk> done: planned tech talk, just got to arrange a time and date
<Keybuk> done: still figuring out how to handle "profiles" in Upstart :(
 * doko orders to one with gold plating
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty blueprints
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty blueprints
<robbiew> I'm out next week...so will plow through BPs this week
<robbiew> only a handful left that are unapproved
<robbiew> so shouldn't be an issue
<azul_> doko: what? only gold? latinum !! (Or better yet coated with printer ink? :)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty Release
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Release
<robbiew> first release meeting is this week
<robbiew> cjwatson: do we have a status page yet?  I haven't looked :/
<cjwatson> I haven't created one, so probably not
<cjwatson> will have to assemble some kind of report, but I'll probably just use people's lightning-round updates for the last couple of weeks
<cjwatson> and cull something out of that
<cjwatson> not too long before we have to start settling down a bit for alpha-1, though
 * skaet nods
<cjwatson> the archive isn't that badly out of shape, though
<robbiew> cool
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<robbiew> I haven't checked recently, but looked like folks have been signing up
<robbiew> nothing else to add here
<robbiew> [TOPIC]AOB/GoodNews?
<MootBot> New Topic: AOB/GoodNews?
<robbiew> apparently we are selling Ubuntu Cycling Kits in the store
<robbiew> wtf?
<cjwatson> not really anything to do with our team, but firefox 4 is ace
<Keybuk> I have my house keys back
<cjwatson> it's actually heard of performance
<ScottK> Competition is good for that kind of thing.
<ev> any thoughts on how it compares to Chrome?
<cjwatson> I can still use my extensions ...
<mvo> same experience here, firefox4 is just great, I swtiched to it from chrome
<cjwatson> no subjective experience of chrome performance since its UI rubbed me up really badly the wrong way
<cjwatson> mozilla's benchmarks show slightly faster js execution than chrome, but that's the only thing I've seen
<mvo> the awsome bar is awsome and noscript is great to get rid of most anoyances
<azul_> re browsers, I'm loving http://www.uzbl.org/.
<ev> it's only a matter of time before we're all using RockMelt anyway. :-P
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:30.
<robbiew> thanks all!
<ev> seeya
<mvo> thanks
<azul_> ev: jhung is taken :(
<ev> hung is free :-P
<azul_> I need someone else to misspell my name in amusing ways to inspire me!
<azul_> hungon!
<ev> according to nickserv both jhung and hung are not registered
<ev> hahaha
<ev> there you go
<Keybuk> ev: RockMelt
<Keybuk> is that the next big thing, like Flock was?
<ev> oh yeah
<ev> it's the second coming of Flock
<ev> All the success of the original, but with Chrome this time
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<HedgeMage> hi, highvoltage :)
<dinda> hi folks
<highvoltage> hi HedgeMage and dinda, good to see both of you here again
<highvoltage> not sure if everyone's here yet, but I'll kick off with the technical stuff so long
 * HedgeMage listens and eats lunch
<highvoltage> * We have daily builds again, they're a bit rough at the edges, but it's early days so that's normal
<highvoltage>  * I responded to the artwork team regarding their request for specifications: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-November/003659.html
<highvoltage> they've shown interest on working on a new wallpaper and other artwork we might want
<highvoltage> we just need to ask for it
<highvoltage> Alpha 2 is on 2011-12-02
<highvoltage> we're not shaping up too badly: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<highvoltage> [i] indicates in progress
<highvoltage> there's something I'm forgetting that I wanted to mention yesterday, but it will come to me later :)
<highvoltage> ah yes, and there's also the Faenza icon set that I suggested last time-
<highvoltage> Xubuntu is going with it, Debian is, and a few other systems. it's not really unique anymore, so I guess we'll stick with plan A then and just fix up the breathe-icon-theme
<highvoltage> dinda: any feedback from all your recent adventures?
<dinda> hihgvoltage; lots of interest for Ubuntu in Education but things move slowly
<ScottK> highvoltage: That's Alpha 1, not Alpha 2, FYI.
<dinda> I did make some progress on the Edubuntu marketplace topic
<highvoltage> oops, yes I meant alpha 1
<highvoltage> dinda: ah, I meant to talk to you about that, stgraber talked to claire at UDS
<dinda> AFAIK it's fine if you want to create a marketplace but Legal is looking for a suitable agreement, similar to what is on the current Ubuntu marketplace
<dinda> not sure how you planned on handling those companies who request to be listed there?
<highvoltage> dinda: so the agreement is that service providers and ubuntu partners go on the canonical partner page
<highvoltage> dinda: and we keep people who sell pre-installed systems with edubuntu on the edubuntu marketplace page
<dinda> correct, marketplace has no business relationship with Canonical, asked for legal to write up a disclaimer to that affect
<dinda> did you plan on some approval process?  say through the edubuntu council?
<highvoltage> nope, they can just contact our web team via the contact form and provide details that will be listed
<highvoltage> I can't currently see a need for an approval process, but if there should be then I'd like to hear what you think
<dinda> not sure but it seems like there should be some minimal requirement
<dinda> some record of activity
<dinda> maybe at least a website and contact person
<highvoltage> that sounds very reasonable
<highvoltage> dinda: I'll add that to the marketplace page when I update it again
<dinda> the listing agreement that Canonical uses to list folks in the marketplace can be used
<dinda> once they sign, they can be listed
<dinda> I can handle that part for now
<highvoltage> is that new? I added a company there last year without signing anything
<dinda> probably, they have tons of new forms
<highvoltage> ok
<dinda> will send you a copy and the edubuntu council when I have one
<highvoltage> dinda: is the 'server in a box' part on the meeting page new or from a previous meeting? is there something left to discuss there or should I take it off?
 * mhall119 made it
<dinda> been talking to various parties about that project but nothing solid yet
<dinda> it can be taken off for edubuntu for the moment
<highvoltage> and "Official support for educational-desktop software"? I can't remember seeing that before?
<dinda> oh yes!  some good news there
<dinda> it's on the table now
<JanC> What's a "school server in a box" supposed to do?
<dinda> Canonical is willing to offer support for the educational-desktop software and help move items in Main
<highvoltage> dinda: ok. personally I was quite happy when they moved out of main :)
<highvoltage> but we have package sets now so having them in main won't be problematic anymore
<mhall119> yeah, but stuff moving out of main caused a translations issue on one game (can't remember which)
<mhall119> but it affected Qimo troo
<mhall119> too
<dinda> the issue for Canonical is that we (I) need to be able to go to large deployments and offer full support
<dinda> that can't happen without that software being in Main
<highvoltage> mhall119: yep, we'll just have to be careful with that
<dinda> all it means is that it goes into our QA process and we offer technical support for paid customers
<dinda> so either I can select just certain applications to move into Main. . .
<dinda> or I can ask for the entire educational-desktop to be included?
<mhall119> there's a lot of packages pulled in by edubuntu-desktop
<highvoltage> dinda: what effect does the archive reorganisation have on Canonical support? I thought that the split between universe and main was becomming mostly cosmetic now?
 * mhall119 assumes that's what you meant
<highvoltage> dinda: oops, and stgraber talked to jane, not claire :)
<dinda> not exactly sure highvoltage
<dinda> but I know we can't offer paid support on anything that is not in Main
<highvoltage> ok
<dinda> and right now I can't go to schools and tell them any educational software is covered by our current support offerings
<stgraber> dinda: universe/multiverse are going to disappear and the new infrastructure (planned for Natty) will let any company (with coredev) announce support to any package, be them in universe or in main
<mhall119> so we need to see what packages in ubuntu-edu-* are not currently in main?
<stgraber> dinda: so moving stuff in main just feels like additional pain (because we need MIRs for any additional dependencies). If Canonical wants to do them all, that's fine, but I'm not going to wait for a package to be in main to ship it or restrict package selection to what's in main
<stgraber> mhall119: all of them
<highvoltage> dinda: do you have any other details about this yet? I'm quite interested in who will be working on it
<stgraber> mhall119: only the package that are also shipped on ubuntu-desktop are in main
<dinda> highvoltage: that's fine it really doesn't affect what you want to do or what edubuntu needs. . .
<mhall119> ok
<dinda> it's just something I'm trying to make happen so that Canonical can offer support. . .
<dinda> highvoltage: no set plans yet, we would do the moving when needed
<JanC> I think Canonical could make contracts listing specific packages outside of main to support anyway
<JanC> maybe you need a Canonical-internal list of packages you want to (or don't want to) support if requested, even if not in main?
<dinda> JanC: think about an Ubuntu Advantage (UA) for Education, the current UA only covers the default install
<dinda> so selling support to schools really gets them nothing b/c none of the educational software is covered
<JanC> yeah, that might be useful, and if I understand stgraber correctly, the rigid supported/not supported distinction is going to be removed anyway
<dinda> I'm asking to create a way for shcools to buy low cost support that covers what they will actually be using, not just generic support
<stgraber> dinda: the issue with moving packages in main is that they won't be able to depend on packages that are in universe. That essentially means that if we want to keep our current flexibility, none of the meta packages will be moved.
<dinda> right now any company except Canonical can cover whatever they want, it's just that Canonical can't
<JanC> looking at the recent RHEL 6 release, they have RHEL Server & RHEL Desktop, plus several "plugins"
<stgraber> dinda: and that if we want any of the package moved to main to dpeend on additional packages, we'll ask them to be demoted to universe
<JanC> where the "plugins" offer support for specific use cases
<dinda> the most likely scenario is that a very large deployment will ask to have certain apps pre-installed, in which Canonical has to support them
<dinda> and that means those items will automatically get migrated to Main as part of the support & image QA process
<highvoltage> dinda: no packages ever gets automatically migrated to main
<stgraber> dinda: it really feels like we're re-discussing exactly what was discussed and agreed on at UDS. The new debtags-based support system is designed for exactly what you're describing and doesn't depend on packages being in main.
<mhall119> dinda: what if there was just a list of "educational" packages that Canonical would provide support for separate from the typical support agreements?
<mhall119> or, what stgraber said
<dinda> mhall119: that's what I asked earlier, maybe I should just ask for a select few apps to be included under an Ubuntu Advantage umbrella
<dinda> stgraber: but I'll review the UDS discussion and try to better understand how it relates
<mhall119> stgraber: so who would put the debtags on the educational packages, edubuntu or canonical?
<mhall119> or revolution linux?
<highvoltage> canonical would
<stgraber> dinda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/ImprovedSupportDeclarations
<dinda> thanks
<stgraber> mhall119: any company who has coredev and wants to support packages would be able to tag the specific set of packages they want to support
<mhall119> highvoltage: are these debtags only for paid support?
<stgraber> mhall119: there'd be 3 class of support: sru, security and helpdesk
<stgraber> mhall119: for each of them, there would be a period of validity (18 months would be the current one for ubuntu-desktop)
<highvoltage> mhall119: I guess the short answer there is "no" :)
<mhall119> ok
<mhall119> so if I wanted to advertise certain packages as being supported by Qimo, how do I go about doing that?
<stgraber> as it's based on tags, the new structure allows more than a company to offer support on a given package
<highvoltage> mhall119: the implementation of it is not yet complete (as seen in that wiki page)
<mhall119> which wiki page?
<highvoltage> mhall119: but basically, you'd have to agree to do a certain amount of work and maintenance of those packages and be responsible for them
<highvoltage> mhall119: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/ImprovedSupportDeclarations
<mhall119> thanks
<dinda> interesting, it's a high priority but not yet been assigned to anyone
<dinda> totally makes sense though
<highvoltage> mhall119: in short, you'd be able to do something like an apt-cache show packagename, and then it would show you which company(ies) are supporting the package and for how long.
<mhall119> that sounds nice
<dinda> thanks all for discussion on that topic, any suggestions most appreciated
<stgraber> dinda: this implemention would mean, no additional paperwork (as in, main) for the edubuntu community (that's, until universe is merged into main) and lets Canonical, Revolution Linux, ... do clear support declaration so users know what is REALLY supported
<stgraber> (as opposed to the general belief that all of main is supported by Canonical, which is wrong)
<mhall119> that sounds like a lot to put into package headers though....
<highvoltage> edubuntu-council renewal is up (as I sent out to the lists), I haven't heard back from nixternal yet, not sure if he's going to be available for another term
<stgraber> mhall119: debtags are already used in debian for other purposes, so we know it works and it scales
<highvoltage> mgariepy has been nominated though
<stgraber> mhall119: we just need some LP (or other script) magic to automatically tag packages based on support declarations
<mhall119> stgraber: scales how far?  What if 100 companies offer support for the same package?
<dinda> highvoltage: saw that notice, when are you planning on holding the elections?
<mhall119> stgraber: I guess having LP auto-generate them would make maintenance easier
<stgraber> mhall119: the outcome of the UDS discussion was "Companies who have Ubuntu Core developers working for them" which currently means maybe 4-5 companies
<mhall119> ok, so Qimo wouldn't be eligible
<highvoltage> dinda: I mailed the CC list about it because we don't really have a large candidate pool, and sabdfl said he's fine with a re-approval since it's a tight core
<highvoltage> mhall119: you can always become a core-dev ;)
<stgraber> mhall119: even if there was hundreds of companies in this case, I doubt they'd all support the same packages. It seems more likely to have a larger amount of supported packages (with only 1-2 companies supporting them) then having the current amount but support by hundreds of companies
<dinda> highvoltage: I was little confused on the requirement to be an edubuntu member as opposed to just an ubuntu member?
<mhall119> I need a bit more packaging knowledge before I apply for core-dev
<dinda> highvoltage: is that a different approval process?
<highvoltage> mhall119: but I do think it would be kind of weird for a non-profit to do that, unless they have sponsored employees for that or something
<highvoltage> dinda: yep
<stgraber> dinda: for an Ubuntu member, it's just a matter of putting your name on the agenda and we'll vote at the next EC meeting. It's usually quite easy for an Ubuntu member to become Edubuntu member.
 * mhall119 's name is on the list
<dinda> ok, that's kind of what I thought
 * dinda supports mhall119's edubuntu membership :)
<stgraber> dinda: currently you can become an Ubuntu member through regional boards, DMB or by becoming an Edubuntu or Kubuntu member. The first two just give you Ubuntu membership, the last two also give you Edubuntu or Kubuntu membership
<dinda> yip, that part I knew just wasn't sure the reverse was true; makes sense though
<dinda> highvoltage: can you give a quick overview of the status of the edubuntu website? and I have a request
<highvoltage> dinda: sure!
<highvoltage> I'm replacing the identica widget with twidenash
<highvoltage> it still has some css issues, I should actually poke mhall119 about it :)
<mhall119> sure
<highvoltage> dinda: since we last spoke, you probably noticed that it has a banner at the top now that explains what edubuntu is. you mentioned before that there's no explanation on the front page, that was the plan for it
<highvoltage> it's still kind of work in progress, the banners just hasn't been extremely high priority so far
<highvoltage> last week we also added a contact form to the website
<dinda> ooh, that's nice, like the banner
<highvoltage> dinda: and I guess you've also seen weblive by now? it was also added in the last month or so
<dinda> yeah, that is totally awesome!
<highvoltage> I also added some more links and documentation to the documentaiton page
<highvoltage> that's about all that I can think of for the website at this stage
<stgraber> we're close to 6400 weblive users since we launched it
<highvoltage> I'm working on a blog entry about ltsp fat clients that's turning out to be closer than documentation at this stage
<mhall119> highvoltage: where's the contact form?
<highvoltage> I'll probably blog it and then copy and paste it for our docs
<highvoltage> mhall119: last button on the top
<mhall119> Documentation?
<highvoltage> mhall119: oops, I just noticed it only displays for logged-in users *fail*
<mhall119> :)
<dinda> yes, since it's taking a very long time to get some updates the ubuntu.com education webpages
<dinda> so I might just ask to put the info on the edubuntu site - it's a page on How to run a successful ubuntu pilot in your school
<dinda> or I could just do a wiki page but a web page looks so much nicer
<dinda> I'll create the page and you can decide if it's appropriate for the edubuntu site
<dinda> also have some lessons plans almost ready so teachers can just pick up and use
<dinda> that's about all from here - any questions
<mhall119> dinda: what apps do your lesson plans utilize?
<dinda> i have a support request I want to ask you folks while I have you but will ask in #edubuntu after this meeting
<dinda> mhall119: right now just gcompris but want to expand to other apps
<dinda> mhall119: would be nice to have a few for each grade level as a hook for different teachers
<mhall119> I'd like to see topical or application specific lesson plans
<mhall119> but I have no idea how to make them
<dinda> mhall119: I'm aiming for topical and the software is just one tool they can use to teach the topic/objective
<JanC> I think lesson plans often need to be adapted to local rules anyway
<dinda> JanC: exactly , they have to be aligned with local curriculum standards
<dinda> JanC: I'm starting with Texas b/c that's where I live and where I have teachers to help me
<highvoltage> dinda: cool, we'd like to get some user stories (which are not case studies) on the website
<JanC> so it should be more like a collection of possible lessons, exercises, etc. -- something teachers can adapt to their local rules
<dinda> highvoltage: I think I can locate a few for you
<highvoltage> JanC: *nod* that would be awesome++
<dinda> JanC correct
<dinda> Janc: can't possibly hit every national and local standard but want to select a few key countries
<dinda> perhaps Ingots in the UK & India
<highvoltage> Ingots is also quite big in South Africa
 * JanC googles for "ingots"
<highvoltage> mhall119: I'll poke you a bit later about that twidenash script :)
<mhall119> ok
<JanC> it's soem on-line course program?
<mhall119> I may not be around, I have to run up to the hospital in a bit
<highvoltage> ok, I guess that's it for the meeting... *GONG*
<mhall119> no quorum for a membership vote?
<highvoltage> mhall119: I think we should try to get a specific meeting for that, I didn't get around to pinging the council members and telling them to be present today
<highvoltage> mhall119: sorry about that
<highvoltage> mhall119: I'll try to round them up and poke you tomorrow if that's ok
<JanC> if the meeting is over: <JanC> What's a "school server in a box" supposed to do?
<mhall119> okay
<highvoltage> JanC: I think it was meant to be a general school infrastructure server. I'm not sure what was discussed at that UDS session, but I think it was deemed out of the schope of Edubuntu
<highvoltage> probably more appropriate for the server team.
<JanC> I would think there is not much difference between a school server and a company server
<dinda> JanC: come over to #edubuntu and I'll tell you about it
<JanC> okay, I'm there  ;)
<highvoltage> JanC: indeed. I guess if we were talking about server-side stuff like schooltool and moodle, then that might have been something else that we might have looked into then
<highvoltage> yeah let's move over :)
<barry_> hi folks, who's around for today's udd meeting?
<barry_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is barry_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry_> thumper, poolie, james_w ping
<flacoste> me
<james_w> hi
<james_w> is it that time already?
<barry_> ajmitch: ping
<barry_> hi, yeah.  i know the usa (canada too?) went off dst so it comes even earlier for us now
 * slangasek waves
<poolie> hi
<barry_> slangasek: hi
 * ajmitch is here
<barry_> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<thumper> barry_: hi
<barry_> thumper: hi
<barry_> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<poolie> ?
<poolie> no agenda? i added something...
<barry_>    * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing)
<barry_>  
<barry_> er, yes, sorry
<ajmitch> I think the wiki formatting is a bit off
<barry_> i've been a little ill so kind of unprepared ;)
<poolie> sorry to hear that
<barry_> fixing... thanks...
<barry_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101117
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101117
<barry_> agenda: action items, udd survey results, bugs
<barry_>    * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing)
<barry_>  
<barry_> not done, but i'd like to keep it on the list
<poolie> agree
<barry_>    * poolie to start list thread to find problems which can be carried on at UDS (ongoing)
<barry_>  
<barry_> i didn't want to take this off without poolie's input
<barry_> and...
<barry_>    * barry to contact poolie about getting his UDS session notes into the blueprint
<barry_>  
<poolie> ah, i don't think we had a new thread, but i did gather stuff from old ones
<poolie> i sent a brief mail
<barry_> poolie: i know you posted to ml, but i haven't read it yet
<poolie> with a link
<poolie> should we turn them into a blueprint? it's more a bunch of ideas and issues than an actual blueprint
<barry_> poolie: thanks.  i think that covers both items
<poolie> perhaps we should capture them on a wiki page in more detail than my mail
<poolie> i'll take that on
<barry_> poolie: thanks.  i do think we should have a blueprint that we can use to track work items
<barry_> [ACTION] poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail
<MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail
<barry_> poolie: which reminds me, will jelmer be joining us here after the 1st of the year?
<poolie> from the 10th
<poolie> oh, in this meeting in particular - i hope so
<barry_> cool
<poolie> mm, but what time will that be? about 10pm?
<poolie> if so, i hope he can
<barry_> i have no problem moving the meeting earlier to accommodate, but i think that will affect you and thumper, right?
<poolie> it's currently 8am for me; 7am wouldn't be a burden; 6 would be a slight burden
<thumper> barry_: I'm ok with an hour earlier (normally)
<poolie> let's see how we go
<barry_> okay, we can take that up when jelmer's on officially
<poolie> so he'll be joining us from the start of the bzr sprint at the platform rally
<barry_> excellent.  is that happening at the same time, or a week before/after?  or maybe that's the lp sprint i'm thinking about?
<barry_> (sorry, my brain is not with me today)
<poolie> overlapping in time and space with the (canonical internal) platform rally,
<barry_> that'll be great
<poolie> and immediately prior to the lp epic, which we will also be attending
<poolie> the first week i plan for us to mostly work together as a small team, of course also talking to ubuntu people
<poolie> and the second week i want us to do lots of work crossing the lp:bzr boundary
<poolie> eg bzr people fixing things in lp and vice versa
<barry_> nice.  i won't be able to attend the lp epic
<barry_> [TOPIC] udd survey results
<MootBot> New Topic:  udd survey results
<barry_> -> poolie
<poolie> ok, we got 82 great responses to our "how is udd for you"
<poolie> mostly pretty positive: net promoter score (of people who responded) very widely distributed, but with ~60% of people voting 8, 9, or 10
<poolie> lots of textual answers
<poolie> perhaps i'll just send a dump of raw answers to the list?
<barry_> +1
<poolie> i don't think there's anything sensitive in there, but i'll check first
<poolie> or edit that out if there is
<barry_> probably best to anonymize the responses
<ajmitch> the answers which score low would be interesting to read
<barry_> ajmitch: yep.  it would be nice to see which of those map to known bugs
<poolie> so that's an action for me
<barry_> [ACTION] poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist
<MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist
<barry_> poolie: any themes that stand out?
<poolie> good qn
<poolie> people generally find the bzr interface nice
<barry_> (btw, that Bazaar/Plate page does not yet exist)
<poolie> reliability, including getting up to date imports
<poolie> error messages caan be confusing
<poolie> lp ui clunky
<poolie> it's another layer on top of a complicated stack
<poolie> when things work, it's great
<poolie> contradictory messages (i guess varying experiences) on whether git imports are good or not
<poolie> also varying opinions on whether they're glad or frustrated we don't use git
<barry_> ;)
<ScottK> barry_: I'll show you my clamav mess at bacon-pig if you want more use cases.
<poolie> perhaps not surprisingly the people with bad experiences seem to use it the least
<poolie> so, we need to look for the place to insert a wedge, where making things a bit better will make people use it more
<barry_> ScottK: sounds great
<ScottK> poolie: I gave it a try, wrote a long mail to the UDD list about issues I found.  I don't have a sense that a lot has changed.  Not sure if that's accurate or not.
<poolie> ScottK: if it's the mail i'm thinking of, i think we got through nearly half since it was sent earlier this year
 * ScottK would be glad to try it again if significant progress has been made.
<poolie> maybe half by count not size
<ScottK> poolie: OK.  That's good to know.
<poolie> the others are definitely still on the list
<poolie> one interesting thing to call out from udd, is that the general things for the bzr team are
<poolie> - network speed, holistically (including mirroring, or shallow checkouts, etc)
<ScottK> It's difficult to know the state of the project as a casual observer and has it progressed enough to be worth trying again.
<poolie> maybe we should send a better summary of what's changed since eg the last ubuntu release?
 * ajmitch will need to sort out something about REVU & branches if I'm to be of use to this meeting 
<barry_> poolie: +1
<barry_> ajmitch: yes, would you like to prepare something for 2 weeks time?
<ajmitch> barry_: OK, I'll try & come up with some questions/suggestions at least
<barry_> ajmitch: great!
<barry_> who wants to talk about bugs? :)
<barry_> [TOPIC] bugs of interest / top bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest / top bugs
<slangasek> reliability is still a big problem right now; almost 2000 failures according to http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/
<barry_> i'm a little afraid this list is getting pretty long ;)
<barry_> slangasek: agreed.  we really need to address the import failures.  can't use udd if the branches aren't there
<james_w> http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/language-pack-gnome-lo-base.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/language-pack-gnome-lo-base.html
<james_w> that's a funny failure mode
<barry_> 696 packages failed with key AssertionError:<module>:main:import_package:import_package
<ajmitch> debian unstable is hardly getting any updates at the moment, due to squeeze freezing
<ajmitch> oops, ECHAN
<poolie> so package imports in particular, as a special focus? ok
<slangasek> james_w: I see gourmet has landed back in that failure state again in spite of your efforts :(
<ScottK> ajmitch: It actually fits.
<poolie> we're still having some trouble getting enough time to work on udd things outside of bzr itself
<poolie> perhaps a big push on that specific thing will help us focus on it
<james_w> slangasek, yeah, I'm still working on it, but it's having to fit in around other things unfortunately
 * slangasek nods
<barry_> poolie: we have bug 653307 for a different failure case, i guess we should have separate bugs for each major class of import failures?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307
<james_w> slangasek, I understand why we are getting the failure though now
<slangasek> oh, good :)
<barry_> we have 10 "bugs of interest".  do we want to go through each one?  maybe take a look at the wiki page and see if there has been any progress on any of them?
<poolie> barry_: 10? i see 3 on the agenda..
<poolie> ... unless i reload
<barry_> refresh :)
<poolie> let's go, quickly
<poolie> a graph of packages is flacoste's favorite nomination
<poolie> (and he sets my bonus :-)
<ajmitch> heh
<poolie> on the grounds that you should put metrics in place early in the use of a feature
<poolie> this is mostly about inserting an X-SBC field to mark a package as having been built from a branch
<poolie> probably trivial to do; just needs figuring out what would be tasteful to put in it
<ajmitch> how much of the BFB infrastructure is in place for that so far?
<flacoste> i'd also like a graph of the package-imports and/or hottest100 results
<poolie> according to jelmer there is infrastructure to scan it out there
<flacoste> so that we assess the quality of our service
<poolie> there are graphs of them
<poolie> possibly there should be better graphs?
<poolie> if we're going to do 10 bugs, and stay roughly within our hour, i'm going to go fairly fast
<barry_> poolie: please do
<poolie> http://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it
 * barry_ remembers a uds conversation about this during a walk to/from dinner
<jam> poolie: I assume that is the point where ssh needs to renegotiate keys?
<poolie> http://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms
<poolie> jam: yes, apparently conch says "too hard, bye!"
<poolie> > bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek)
<poolie> needs to be turned into a proper bug, with a number - can you do that steve?
<poolie> (watch file support) - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n
<flacoste> poolie: couldn't we use stacked branch for that?
<poolie> rockin
<poolie> flacoste: for what?
<slangasek> poolie: ack
<flacoste> poolie: specifically, slangasek bug
<poolie> it can be part of the solution
 * flacoste trying to push Tim's bug up the chain :-)
<poolie> this is the thing from uds i described as "network performance holistically"
<barry_> on bug 295274; i need to get back to that branch
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 295274 in bzr-builddeb "merge-upstream shouldn't require --version when debian/watch is present" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/295274
<poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307 missing chk root keys
<jam> flacoste: the issue raised at UDS is that no matter how little we download, a local mirror is still a lot faster
<jam> (even if we get the download to be ~ the same size as the tarball)
<flacoste> jam: that's compared to apt-get source right
<jam> right
<poolie> right
<slangasek> right - to be productive I need a good way to have the source already be local
<jam> there was a discussion about being able to list the packages you are interested, and having a cron-ish script keep those up to date in a local mirror/shared repo
<poolie> there are a bunch of things we can usefully do - local mirrors, raw speed, etc
<poolie> let's give it a number, then split it into bugs for each step
<poolie> re the missing chk root keys
<poolie> i know spiv was working on this
<poolie> he didn't mention it recently; i'm not sure why he stopped
<poolie> james_w: do you know?
<james_w> no, I don't
<poolie> i'll ping on the bug
<james_w> I think the immediate cause was his bout of illness
<barry_> [ACTION] slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror"
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror"
<poolie> probably
<ScottK> poolie: Why does the distro packages file need to know if something was built from branch?
<poolie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395 commit in checkout doesn't propagate tags
<ScottK> (or flacoste)
<poolie> spiv is working on this and i think it should be done soon
<flacoste> ScottK: simply to allow us to track uptake of UDD across the distro
<poolie> ScottK: two things: firstly, to answer "how can i get the exact source for this"; secondly and a bit pragmatically, so we can trace how much of ubuntu is using this
<poolie> we should split it out from the 'want a graph' bug
<ScottK> Right, but making the packages file larger makes apt-get update slower for every single user of Ubuntu.
<poolie> true
<ScottK> Surely there are less invasive ways to track this.
<poolie> perhaps it should not propagate to the binary? or perhaps there's a better way?
<james_w> there probably is
<poolie> i'd love suggestions
<poolie> and that's what i meant by making sure it was tasteful
<james_w> X-C should be enough, but that might require some special-casing in LP unfortunately
<ScottK> I think that's better than adding more noise to the Packages files.
<james_w> we need to decide what data we want, and then we can come up with a way to allow us to capture it
<poolie> ok
<james_w> if only there was a forum in which we could discuss what data to capture to ensure we were tracking what we wanted
<poolie> there's a bug, let's capture the constraints/ideas there
<poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832 "trying to import version ... again"
<poolie> new to me
<james_w> that's one that I'm looking at currently
<james_w> I know the immediate cause, but I'm a bit worried about what will happen when I unclog the pipe :-)
<poolie> cool, thanks
<poolie> there's a related thing that's on my plate, which is migrating the package importer onto "proper" is-managed service
<poolie> currently in a holding pattern waiting for losa timeslices
<poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/499684 "Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented" is also new to me
<barry_> i think that's ScottK's complaint about -- (one i share :)
<poolie> it seems like a good bug report
<ajmitch> it is a bit obscure when explaining how to use the tools to newcomers
<barry_> on my changelog "bug" - i haven't hit it again yet, so i'm still waiting for a specific example before i file a bug
<poolie> i don't think it should preempt others already in train?
<barry_> i should probably remove it from top bugs since it isn't one yet
<barry_> i think that's it for bugs, unless anybody has any other comments?
<barry_> [TOPIC] * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot
<poolie> please file a bug for the changelog/merge thing when you can describe it
<poolie> nothing else from me
<barry_> poolie: yep, definitely
<barry_> so next week we start the new regime for sponsoring.  i'm up on monday and i plan to heavily encourage branches and merge proposals.  i'd like to give preferential treatment to reviews in mps.  (note though i can only review anyway)
<ajmitch> this'll be a good way to get feedback about sponsoring workflow
<barry_> yep, i'll keep copious notes :)
<poolie> that's a great idea
<barry_> i'll post my thoughts to the udd mlist afterward
<barry_> i just wanted to mention this; i don't have much else
<barry_> unless anybody has suggestions, or things to emphasize, etc... ?
<barry_> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<barry_> anything else not on the agenda?
<poolie> sorry one more
<poolie> i'd like to look for someone to do a rotation onto the bzr team, ideally from platform
<poolie> to free up some time for them to work on this
<poolie> if anyone here is interested in working on something different, that's great
<poolie> otherwise, think of someone else you might know who it would suit
<barry_> poolie: maybe a solicitation on the platform mlist?  (i don't think i can take it on until the py27 transition is done)
<poolie> maybe someone who's been working on the same group for a few years and could do with a refresher
<poolie> sure, i just thought  about it in the shower this morning
<barry_> :)
<poolie> i will get the idea out there
<james_w> good idea
<barry_> awesome
<barry_> [ACTION] poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list
<poolie> i'd like to also approach likely candidates individually, if we can get a shortlist
<barry_> cool, thanks.  any other business?
<poolie> i'll just mention https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bazaar/Plate
<poolie> (private only, sorry)
<poolie> as a view of what we're up to
<poolie> nothing else from me
<james_w> I have a merge proposal for barry_, but I think that's a bit to "Other Business"
<james_w> poolie, ubuntu.com or canonical.com?
<poolie> sorry, canonical
<poolie> https://wiki.canonical.com/Bazaar/Plate
<barry_> poolie: thanks
<barry_> okay, folks.  thanks again for another great meeting.  see you in two weeks
<barry_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:07.
<james_w> thanks all
<poolie> thanks! :)
<slangasek> thanks:)
<ScottK> barry_: That's definitely on my list.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-18
 * charlie-tca waves
<vinnl> Hey charlie-tca :)
<mr_pouit> .
<charlie-tca> Hm, anyone not here yet, please raise your hand?
 * TheSheep raises a hand
<charlie-tca> Okie dokie. Don't want to keep anyone too long, so let's go
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<charlie-tca> Since I seem to be the one that did that, I'll chair today
<charlie-tca> TOPIC agenda
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<charlie-tca> # Continue working with the new Governance structure
<charlie-tca> # Changes for Natty Narwhal
<charlie-tca> # login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable - charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> #
<charlie-tca> New icon theme, elementary vs faenza - charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> # Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<charlie-tca> Hm, not quite the order I wanted. Let's start with Team updates
<charlie-tca> developers, where we at in natty?
<mr_pouit> inclusion of Xfce 4.7.x is in progress (a bit blocked currently because of some stupid stuff done by glib developers)
<charlie-tca> Great! Are we staying with the same applications as maverick?
<mr_pouit> almost all 4.8 core libs are already there
<mr_pouit> I think so, unless someone has new things to propose to the ml
<charlie-tca> Okay. Thanks, mr_pouit
<charlie-tca> website ?
<mr_pouit> (there will probably be some issues because ubuntu is moving to gtk3 and we don't, but we'll see when they arise)
<charlie-tca> anything else, mr_pouit ?
<mr_pouit> no, that's all :p
<charlie-tca> vinnl: there was some discussion of moving the website to wordpress. Is that still on-going?
<vinnl> charlie-tca, I don't know, I believe that was knome's initiative, I have not much to do with keeping the website running
<charlie-tca> I had hopes you knew more than me... ;-)
<vinnl> Hehe, sorry to disappoint
<charlie-tca> Appears that is falling by the wayside, then.
<charlie-tca> Anyone here want to grab documentation? We really need to try and get that updated for Natty
<vinnl> Wasn't Pasi working on an updated version with the new Xubuntu style?
<mhall119> quick question, is Xfce upgrading to GTK3?
<vinnl> (@website)
<charlie-tca> As far as I know
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: what about gtk3?
<mr_pouit> mhall119: no, 4.8 will use gtk2
<mhall119> ok
<vinnl> There was a discussion on the Xfce list about this today
<vinnl> They wanted to wait until it's been released for a while so bugs have been ironed out
<mhall119> works for me
<mr_pouit> (ah, I didn't have the time to check my mails from today ;)
<mhall119> how about settings, I thought I heard a while ago plans to move to dconf/gsettings
<vinnl> They mentioned that too, same conversation
<mhall119> ok
<vinnl> They wanted to, eventually, but xfconf works fine, so they're not in a hurry
<mhall119> do you happen to hav a link to that thread vinnl ?
<vinnl> It's not the transition that's a lot of work, it's conversion of settings :)
<vinnl> Ehm, let me look
<vinnl> mhall119, here: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
<mhall119> thanks, cause that move is going to affect QImo
<charlie-tca> [LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
<charlie-tca> okay, moving on then
<charlie-tca> http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
<charlie-tca> Bugs and Testing: We are working to triage bugs as they come in. We are getting hit pretty hard on abiword right now
<charlie-tca> Got to try and upstream those
<charlie-tca> Testing will be ongoing, with the changes in Natty for Ubuntu, we need to try and test every day or two.
<charlie-tca> I am running a full upgrade maverick to natty already, on my daily use machine
<charlie-tca> Artwork: I have gotten with the community artwork team, they have drawn up a preliminary spec for us:
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7
<charlie-tca> If anyone has suggestions for that, I am open.
<charlie-tca> Also, we are looking at replacing the elementary icon theme with faenza
<charlie-tca> [LINK] http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
<charlie-tca> It looks to be a very nice theme
<charlie-tca> well, icon set
<charlie-tca> any objections to replacing elementary?
<vinnl> Ehm
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: I think that faenza has severe usability problems
<vinnl> I recall reading on the faenza page that a lot of icons were missing, recently. Is that still the case?
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: especially with the small icons
<thorwil> hi, let me catch up
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: in particular, all the icons have the same outline
<charlie-tca> You mean, the squares?
<TheSheep> yes
<mr_pouit> yeah, for the completeness, I think ochosi is working on it (but he doesn't seem to be here now)
<charlie-tca> The colors are great for visibility, though
<TheSheep> plus, the icons are different than the default icons for most applications
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7 is the work of j_baer, not the "team". well, and full of problems
<charlie-tca> Yesw, they are different
<TheSheep> I just spent a minute looking for gimp (I enabled faenza for test)
<charlie-tca> thorwil: help?
<vinnl> charlie-tca, also, about the spec - what Creative Commons license must submissions adhere to?
<vinnl> -NC is quite restrictive
<thorwil> charlie-tca: i'm Thorsten Wilms. you will remember that we talked about design and the need for differentiation and a strategy at UDS
<charlie-tca> Yup
<charlie-tca> I remember. I did not realize that spec was not good.
<thorwil> so the problem of that spec is that it is not based on any such thoughts
<charlie-tca> should I email you and Saleel for this one?
<thorwil> sure
<mhall119> vinnl: IIRC, -NC isn't allowed in universe
<charlie-tca> Glad you made it here.
<thorwil> unless you want to discuss the very definition of the project and the strategy right here :)
<vinnl> mhall119, more reason to state that in the spec :)
<charlie-tca> Okay, throw the spec page out for now. I will get the artists and get a real one drawn up. If anyone has ideas, we need them.
<mr_pouit> I can't see where -nc is writtenâ¦
<thorwil> if CC, ask for plain CC or CC-SA
<vinnl> mr_pouit, no, but no specific CC license is specified, which implies -NC is an option
<thorwil> NC and ND don't belong
<vinnl> Exactly
<mr_pouit> yeah ok
<vinnl> Ah yeah I meant ND, that's the worst clause :)
<knome> 'lo
<thorwil> hi knome
<charlie-tca> Hey , knome
<charlie-tca> We were just discussing possible specs for artwork
<knome> mm-hmm
<mr_pouit> (well, with -nc you can't even put a screenshot of the desktop in a book/magazineâ¦)
<charlie-tca> apparently, I am in a pile of straw when it comes to it. thorwil is going to help draw up specs, I think
<vinnl> mr_pouit, I suppose that would fall under Fair Use, which I think most countries have? Still, it'd definitely be undesirable
<vinnl> But okay, if a new spec is going to be written, this  can be something to keep in mind, no need to discuss it further I suppose
<thorwil> knome: where i have been gently pushing, along with Saleel, to first have a clear definition of the xubuntu project. especially how it differentiates itself from ubuntu and other. why it is worthwhile
<thorwil> knome: as these questions will lead to a message to get across via the artwork
<knome> yes..
<charlie-tca> vinnl: I think we can draw it up to give us the license we need submissions to fall under
<charlie-tca> but right now, it seems to be "guess and pray" requests
<charlie-tca> knome: thoughts on this?
<knome> not really
<knome> sounds doable
<thorwil> i'v been told that the "lightweight" aspect often makes people think xubuntu would be only for old hardware. so instead, maybe emphasize performance?
<charlie-tca> Do we need to have a separate meeting for this discussion to happen, or do it via mailing list/emails. I don't think thorwil and saleel are on the xubuntu lists
<thorwil> and it seems xubuntu will be conservative compared to ubuntu
<knome> charlie-tca, since there is not artwork team in xubuntu ATM, isn't it you who accepts or declines what thorwil and saleel have drafted?
<charlie-tca> I like the emphasize performance part
<beardygnome> i agree with thorwil, lightweight tends to give the wrong impression
<charlie-tca> I guess it is. but I kind of take everyone's word on it, since I don't know all the in's and out's
<thorwil> knome: ideally most of this would come from team members, while i just offer guidance
<knome> thorwil, there is no such 'team members'
<charlie-tca> knome: we still like to have input on it. You know more about licenses and what the artwork should represent than I do
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email
<MootBot> ACTION received:  charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email
<knome> imo if somebody wants his work in xubuntu, it should be no problem to publish the artwork in whatever license you ask for
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable
<MootBot> New Topic:  login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable
<mhall119> why?
<knome> charlie-tca, there has been talk about LightDM
<charlie-tca> why? because we keep getting issues with GDM when they change things in Gnome
<mhall119> LightDM uses webkit?
<charlie-tca> I have been following the lightDM stuff. Does it use webkit?
<highvoltage> yep, you can even try it in your web browser :)
<mr_pouit> one of the greeters uses webkit
<highvoltage> (well, the greeter, anyway)
<mhall119> oh, appears there's a separate -webkit and -gnome versions
<charlie-tca> gnome versions are what makes things difficult sometimes.
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: what about what is it ? lxdm?
<mhall119> how about LXDE's new one?
<mhall119> heh
<charlie-tca> Wouldn't it make things easier than GDM?
<cyberanger> I use SLiM myself
<mr_pouit> I don't know, didn't try since a long time. But I trust lightdm to be better written ;]
<charlie-tca> hm, it seems like lightdm is not quite ready. Can we get with Robert Ancell on it and see what is happening?
<charlie-tca> Who wants to follow that up?
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] Find out more information about LightDM
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Find out more information about LightDM
<charlie-tca> anything else on this subject?
<knome> charlie-tca, maybe consider also asking xfce devs
<knome> they could know something about that...
<charlie-tca> I like that idea, too
<mr_pouit> Robert Ancell sent a mail to xfce4-dev a few weeks ago iirc
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] follow up with xfce devs on display managers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  follow up with xfce devs on display managers
<charlie-tca> I will try to research it, then
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Continue working with the new Governance structure
<MootBot> New Topic:  Continue working with the new Governance structure
<charlie-tca> yes, this is on-going.
<charlie-tca> We are going to have to set up a vote of some kind to formalize a project lead so we can set up a governing council
<charlie-tca> Does that make sense?
<charlie-tca> suggestions for doing that?
<vinnl> How are the nominees going to be decided?
<knome> charlie-tca, the thread about lightdm @xfce4-dev ml: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html
<charlie-tca> At this point, I am an interim Project Lead. We can ask for monimees through the mailing list again, and give a time frame for submissions, like about two weeks
<charlie-tca> Thanks, knome
<charlie-tca> [LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html
<charlie-tca> two weeks appears to be the accepted time for submissions, doesn't it?
<vinnl> I suppose it's long enough
<charlie-tca> then we can ask for votes, either in a meeting like this, through the mailing list, throught the community council
<charlie-tca> I just think we need to do something
<charlie-tca> I also plan on a meeting every two weeks at this time, to keep everyone up to date on what is happening in Xubuntu
<charlie-tca> any suggestions on how to select the project lead?
<vinnl> Do you think attendance will be high enough with such frequent meetings?
<knome> just see if any volunteers step up frist
<knome> *first
<JanC> BTW: the LightDM -gnome greeter is actually a Gtk greeter
<knome> agreed with vinnl - once per two weeks is a bit too much
<mhall119> edubuntu does weekly meetings, I'm sure xubuntu can bring in at least as many people
<charlie-tca> How high does attendance need to be? If we get the team leads to give updates, that is a good meeting for updating everyone
<knome> would have been too much even when we had a more active community
<charlie-tca> um, you won't generate interest without creating something
<vinnl> mhall119, how many does Edubuntu bring?
<vinnl> Agreed
<charlie-tca> we have tried without any meetings, and it falls way short
<mhall119> vinnl: usuallly only a few
<mhall119> but it's good to keep in touch and everyone up to date
<vinnl> Yeah zero meetings is too few I suppose :P
<charlie-tca> We get about 10 in QA, less in bugsqad meetings.
<charlie-tca> Accessibility has what, about 5 or 6 regulars at the meetings?
<vinnl> Then I suppose Xubuntu would be able to pull it off as well. Still, that's a lot of meetings during the cycle. Perhaps one in three weeks would be better?
<highvoltage> even when there's only 1 or 2 people present at an edubuntu meeting I find it useful for making sure that at least *someone* knows what's been happeneing the last week :)
<vinnl> Hmm yeah, sounds reasonable
<vinnl> Would be very useful for the project lead at least, I suppose
<charlie-tca> I figured two weeks at first, then if we want to, go to monthly. It is easier with regular schedules of 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, etc
<vinnl> So if the project lead is willing to be there once every two weeks, I suppose it's fine
<mhall119> weekly meetings are easy to remember
<charlie-tca> I am thinking of every two weeks, on Thursday, 19:00 UTC
<mhall119> no "is this a meeting week or not'
<mhall119> if it's wednesday, I know there's an edubuntu meeting
<charlie-tca> mhall119: you make a really good point
<charlie-tca> I have enough people here, maybe. should we vote?
<mhall119> some edubuntu meetings don't last very long, but it's good to have them so regularly
<charlie-tca> We could have two votes, I guess. one for weekly and one for two weeks apart. a yes vote is marked by +1, a no vote is -1
<charlie-tca> everyone is allowed to vote
<charlie-tca> [VOTE] for weekly meeting
<MootBot> Please vote on:  for weekly meeting.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<vinnl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vinnl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mhall119> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mr_pouit> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mr_pouit. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<beardygnome> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from beardygnome. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<charlie-tca> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from charlie-tca. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<knome> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from knome. 3 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<charlie-tca> Any other votes?
<charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 2 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1
<charlie-tca> Now what do I do? should we vote for two weeks too?
<beardygnome> yes
<knome> vote for one month
<charlie-tca> [VOTE] for meetings every two weeks
<MootBot> Please vote on:  for meetings every two weeks.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<charlie-tca> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<beardygnome> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beardygnome. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mr_pouit> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from mr_pouit. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<vinnl> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from vinnl. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mhall119> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
<charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 2
<charlie-tca> I am not sure that did any good. If we have meetings every week, we get more attendance, it looks like.
<charlie-tca> Some people will make every other meeting, which is great!
<charlie-tca> I think the second vote was pointless. plan on meeting every week
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: if you're happy to run the meeting every week then go with every week
<charlie-tca> [AGREED] Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC
<highvoltage> if weekly meetings doesn't work you can always fall back on not doing them :)
<charlie-tca> If I miss a week, someone else should feel free to chair
<charlie-tca> And now,
<vinnl> I'm not sure if  that's going to happen :P
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<charlie-tca> going,
<mhall119> is Xubuntu going to automatically benefit from the work being done to reduce the size of the Ubuntu ISO?
<charlie-tca> Not necessarily. It depends on what they do
<charlie-tca> When they cut gimp, it did not help us
<charlie-tca> going,
<mhall119> they're dropping perl deps
<mhall119> and re-building packages to be smaller
<mhall119> optimizing images
<mhall119> etc
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: that should help, right?
<mhall119> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
<mr_pouit> yeah, for the ones that are done automatically (png optimization)
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
<mr_pouit> (and also removal of packages' changelogs)
<charlie-tca> I want to thank all of you for attending. Let's continue next week! :-)
<charlie-tca> mhall119: does that work?
<mhall119> same day/time?
<mhall119> charlie-tca: does what work?
<charlie-tca> the answer from mr_pouit
<mhall119> oh, yeah, thanks
<charlie-tca> Next meeting Thursday 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:10.
<mhall119> I'll be bugging you guys a lot more in the next 5 months, for sure
<charlie-tca> Works for us
<mhall119> should I hang out in #xubuntu or #xubuntu-devel?
<vinnl> Thanks for chairing charlie-tca
<beardygnome> thankc charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> mhall119: #xubuntu-devel
<beardygnome> *thanks
<mr_pouit> mhall119: -devel if it's for development related questions :P
<mhall119> ok, thanks
<charlie-tca> You are welcome.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-19
<pleia2> hi everyone, Americas board meeting should be starting now but it looks like neither of the folks on the list are here at the moment
<pleia2> kombuchakip? dhillonv10?
<pleia2> we'll be here for a half hour if either of them comes by, but then we'll have to call it a night
<dinda> pleia2: ok, i
<dinda> pleia2: I'm around if needed
<pleia2> ok, I'll ping you if they show up :)
 * pleia2 has an ubuntu hour to skip off to after the meeting anyway
<pleia2> ok folks, I think we're going to wrap this up
<nhandler> Sorry for anyone who showed up to support any of the applicants
<pleia2> thanks for coming anyway :)
<czajkowski> /c
<jpds>  /j
<soren> /?
<pitti> skaet: good morning! meeting is in 8 mins, right?
<tsimpson> Pici: fridge says it stars in an hour
<tsimpson> err, pitti
<tsimpson> (tab-fail)
<Pici> tsimpson: its okay, I'm used to getting pitti's hilights.
<pitti> * Time: 1500UTC - 1630UTC
<pitti> that's what the email invitation said
<pitti> (and that also was the usual time for many, many months)
<pitti> tsimpson: I guess the fridge isn't UTC based?
<tsimpson> pitti: it _should_ be, butt google has UTC fail recently
<tsimpson> I think it gets confused about DST changes
<apw> yep, 15:00 is now
<ogra> pitti, in 1h
<ogra> as usual
<pitti> ogra: depends on the definition of "as usual" :) 1500 UTC was "as usual" during summer
<pitti> and also in the previous winter
<ogra> well, i got an invitation from skaet that says 17:00 local time for me
<pitti> gcal is broken
<ogra> i usually trust evolutions TZ translation here
<pitti> ogra: the email invitation said 1500 UTC
<ogra> more than gcal
<apw> * Time: 1500UTC - 1630UTC
<pitti> but anyway, she's not here yet, so I guess we postpone it to later
<skaet> pitti,  sorry about the calendar glitch.   I was expecting it to start in an hour....
<apw>  apw@dm$ date -u
<apw> Fri Nov 19 15:08:58 UTC 2010
<apw> skaet, that is cause you believed the crap google cal tells you :)
<ScottK> o/
<apw> it has never been right since you guys moves the time of the DST transitions off the time the rest of the world does them
<skaet> apw,  indeed...   silly me,  believing the tools work.   sigh.  should know better.
<apw> :)
<ScottK> apw: Well that's over now, so I think that's not it.
<apw> ScottK, is it?  ok
<ScottK> I think.  Doesn't Europe switch first?
<ScottK> US switched last weekend.
<ScottK> (or was it two weeks, I've lost track)
<apw> yeah we switched when you used to do ... having aligned with you :)
<ScottK> Of course.
<skaet> see y'all back here in an hour, ok?
<ScottK> At least it's not like Argentina where the legistlature has to decide it every year.
<pitti> skaet: why not start now?
<skaet> don't think marjo & victorp are around...
<ogra> pitti, because i have my page not ready yet :P
<pitti> skaet: if not, do we officially move it later one hour just for today, or for subsequent meetings as well?
<victorp> skaet - hi
<skaet> pitti,  all subsequent ones.
<victorp> my calendar shows that it starts in 45min
<apw> skaet, have you checked if the hour after is empty too ?
<victorp> busy now
<apw> victorp, your calendar is wrong sadly ... google is hopeless with DST handling
<victorp> apw - yes it is
<victorp> the sad fact still remain that I am book in another meeting :)
<apw> skaet, ok on the fridge its at 16:00-17:00 UTC
 * skaet shakes head head - its showing on mine (and I set it, as 10am)...
<skaet> I'll go in, and re-create it now that all the time zones have settled down, and see if we can get it on everyone's calendar properly.
<skaet> sorry 'bout the glitch.  :(
<skaet> pitti, ScottK, ogra, victorp, apw - will see you back here in ~40 mins.    thanks for your patience.
<charlie-tca> I am starting to severely dislike these calendars. They seem to fail often
 * skaet nods
<soren> skaet: Secret trick: If the calendar you're using doesn't let you set UTC as your timezone, try setting it to Iceland. They follow UTC (and have no DST).
<soren> skaet: That's TZ="Atlantic/Reykjavik", by the way.
 * skaet hugs soren - good tip!
<soren> skaet: The problem is if it's been scheduled in a TZ that has DST. Then the UTC time of it changes as that TZ moved in and out of DST. Mass confusion ensues.
 * skaet has gone in and recreated the calendar entry - it should be showing up at 16:00 UTC ... fingers crossed.
<skaet> which should be in about 3 minutes from now.....
<ogra> 2
<ScottK> 1
 * marjo waves
<skaet> #startmeetin
<ogra> GOOOOOO ! :)
 * pitti throws a g
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:59. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * joshuahoover waves
<skaet> morning all,  sorry about the calendar glitches....
 * charlie-tca waves - observing
<skaet> welcome to kickoff for Natty release planning.
<skaet> Release Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
<robbiew> o/
<zematynnad> o/
<skaet> on the agenda,  there are a variety of actions that have caried over from the UDS BOF.
<skaet> most are for me, and are in progress ;)
<ScottK> skaet: FWIW, I'd prefer the term lessons learned over post-mortem.
<skaet> just wondering if anyone had comments about the NattyReleaseSchedule?
<skaet> ScottK,  no problem - will change it.
<marjo> skaet: another term is "retrospective"
<skaet> Thanks marjo,  will work with "lessons learned",  have heard it used a bit more in other places.  :)
<sconklin> could you post the agenda link please?
<jdstrand> o/
<skaet> is cjwatson around?
<ScottK> skaet: IIRC we were going to add the Linaro freeze to the schedule.
<marjo> sconklin: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-11-19
<skaet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-11-19
<skaet> all,  the link is in the meeting invite as well for future reference.
<cjwatson> hi
<skaet> ScottK,   Linaro invite is on the NattyReleaseInterlock page
<skaet> hi cjwatson, before natty alpha1, merge cron jobs (still limited cron jobs) - where are we with this?
 * skaet just going through the action items, before going into the round table.
<cjwatson> skaet: not sure I understand what that means.  do you remember more detail?
<ScottK> skaet: I'm reasonably certain most people will just look at the release shcedule.
<skaet> cjwatson, hmm, not handy - will take it up with you offline then.
<cjwatson> skaet: if it means cdimage cron jobs, that's all don
<cjwatson> *done
<cjwatson> but I don't know if that's what it means
<skaet> ScottK,  if so, will work with JamieBennett to get it added in
<skaet> cjwatson, thats likely it, will double check later.
<skaet> On to Team Updates Section now...
<ScottK> skaet: Is there supposed to be an A-1 work item iteration in the schedule (it seems odd to start with 2)?
<ScottK> skaet: There was an item in the overview we needed to discuss
<ScottK> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/677209
<skaet> ScottK, when I asked about that A-1 vs. A-2, was told we don't make commitments for A-1,  only going in for A-2, which is why its listed as such.
<ScottK> OK.
<pitti> we still use some a1 milestoning for stuff that really needs to land early, FWIW
<pitti> but that can be considered "team-internal planning" only
<skaet> ScottK,  re: 677290,  cjwatson is aware of it.   Not sure there's a solution known - but agree need to figure something out.
<ScottK> skaet: OK.  All the items in the related bug are about the bug tracker.  I think that have access to the Ubuntu archive is a rather more urgent and serious matter.
<skaet> cjwatson, robbiew ?
<cjwatson> aye
<cjwatson> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> Most specs are in place now.  A lot of our work is carried over from previous cycles, so we didn't have so much drafting to do this time round, although there are a few significant additions.
<cjwatson> A selection of interesting things that have been happening over the last couple of weeks in foundations, aside from the usual bringing up of the archive, CD images, merges, and the like:
<cjwatson>  * early development work on flicker-free boot
<cjwatson>  * gcc linking changes, dealing with associated build failures
<cjwatson>  * preliminary patches for notifying plymouth about upstart state changes
<cjwatson>  * primary and ports builds consolidated into single directories on cdimage
<cjwatson>  * pushing the grub/btrfs licensing question a bit further up the hill with relevant external licence holders
<cjwatson>  * python2.7 build failure work
<cjwatson>  * software-center ratings-and-reviews work
<cjwatson>  * training new team member on upstart
<cjwatson> One thing I should note is that Ubuntu 10.04.2 is not all that far away.  If you have bugs you want to get fixed there, get them into the SRU process as soon as possible!
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04.2
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04.2
<cjwatson> I think that's all
<cjwatson> 677209: I'm going to try changing the owner to ubuntu-archive today
<cjwatson> in fact, right now.  let's see what blows up.
 * skaet LOL.... wasn't quite ready to go there, but .... ok,  lets head in.
<cjwatson> oh, sorry!  I thought you were asking for the foundations update
<skaet> lol
<skaet> no worries.
<marjo> skaet: feels like a first release meeting :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Team Updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team Updates
<cjwatson> ForbiddenAttribute.  poo.
<cjwatson> I'll ask for a LOSA to do it.
<skaet> next week - concerned that Alpha1  is week after, and its also Thanksgiving weekend.
<skaet> cjwatson are we in good enough shape, we can cancel the meeting or should I hold it?
<pitti> cjwatson: I guess python2.6 is meant to disappear from a standard install by final natty? or is there a different plan for 2.6/2.7?
<skaet> Also,   just want people to know we'll be starting up a bi-weekly meeting to discuss SRU and 10.04.2 LTS next monday, and 10.04.2 won't be covered in this meeting.
<cjwatson> skaet: up to you, Thanksgiving doesn't affect me :)
<cjwatson> pitti: ScottK will know current thinking better than I.  I think we want to avoid multiple Python versions on the CDs though
<ScottK> pitti: We need to see how 2.7 goes.  Plan is to make a final decision before feature freeze.
 * jdstrand won't be here, but also won't have anything to contribute in the highest of all likelihoods
<pitti> ScottK: so it'll be one or the other?
<skaet> cjwatson,  ok.   Will cancel it formally, but if it looks like an ad-hoc is needed, we can use this slot, for those around...
<ScottK> pitti: We may have to support both, but only one needs to be on the CD (although .so duplication in extensions and such will still cost space)
<pitti> ScottK: understood, thanks
<skaet> Other piece of news,  is that we'll be opening up o-series and p-series as planning place holders in next month.
<skaet>     * These are for assigning bugs and workitems to (so they don't get lost, and can be revisited in and organized fashion at the start of each cycle).
<skaet>     * Nothing can be uploaded to o-series (or p-series for that matter) until the start of the next release cycle.
<skaet>     * More communication will be coming out.
<pitti> ScottK: at least we'll have some more potential space savings for the next cycle again :)
<ScottK> Yep
<pitti> skaet: \o/
<pitti> great help for bug targetting
<ScottK> barry has been discovering some undocumented gotchas in 2.7, but nothing that's a show stopper so far.
<skaet> pitti: indeed.   :)    Thanks to jml and launchpad team for helping with this.
<skaet> ok... moving on to the roundtable...
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA update
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA update
<marjo> hi folks!
 * skaet o/
<marjo> in case you missed the memo, Quality Is A Major Focus For Natty!
<marjo> * Blueprints Review
<marjo> All blueprints and work items approved and some already done.
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa.html
 * pitti makes a note that work item chart URLs sohuld use ~platform now
<marjo> pitti: ack
<ogra> but but ... the credits !
<marjo> * Would like to introduce Jean-Baptiste Lallement (jibel). He's taken over testing lead from ara. Thank you to ara for all her excellent work in previous releases!
<skaet> thanks ara, and welcome jibel   :)
<jibel> Hi all
<marjo> * Natty Test Plan
<marjo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-qa-n-testplan
<marjo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/NattyTestPlan
<marjo> Please review and provide feedback; it's not too late
<skaet> marjo,  will do.  thanks.
<marjo> As part of jibel's work, please take a look at the following
<marjo> * Desktop Automated Testing Results
<marjo>  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/#unity
<marjo> i think it's quite a nice format, but as usual, if you have any enhancement requests, please just ask
<pitti> that's quite impressive!
<marjo> we want the QA reports to be useful and meaningful so we can use the data for decision making
<pitti> lots of script errors, but I guess these are being worked on?
<marjo> pitti: i agree and thx on behalf of the qa team
<marjo> pitti: ack
<fader_> Minor suggestion: it might be nice to highlight failed cases a bit more (change the color of the number or the background of the table cell?)
<pitti> marjo: can we link failures with bugs?
<marjo> fader_ ack and thx
<pitti> fader_ +1
<marjo> pitti: have received similar suggestion from skaet
<marjo> will consider both to make it easy to link failed tests directly to bug reports
<skaet> marjo, is everything ready to start the testing  of the alpha1 images, the week after next?
<jibel> pitti, thats mainly scripts that are not compatible with unity (app menu, indicators, ...) they need a rewrite.
<pitti> jibel: ah, I see
<marjo> skaet: yes, will be ready, mostly setting up iso tracker (that's SOP)
<skaet> marjo, jibel:  cool.  :)
<skaet> any other questions?
<marjo> here's the QA Dashboard
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~marjomercado/qadashboard.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~marjomercado/qadashboard.html
<marjo> It's under development, so looking for feedback as always
<marjo> skaet: that's it from QA team
 * skaet looks around for hands...
<marjo> thx all!
<skaet> thanks marjo.
<apw> skaet, ? hands for ?
<charlie-tca> o/
<skaet> raising hands for questions....  ;)
 * charlie-tca raises hand
 * apw looks stupid
<skaet> charlie-tca, goahead, then we'll move on to Hardware Cert
<charlie-tca> It seems like it is going to be hard to test alpha1 for accessibilty, since I don't have a good image to even complete a test case yet
<charlie-tca> Is that something that was planned for alpha1 or 2?
<dbarth> charlie-tca: do you mean with unity or the classic desktop?
<marjo> charlie-tca: if necessary, can postpone to alpha-2
<dbarth> unity won't have a11y support until a2
<cjwatson> good image> what's the problem?
<apw> in what way is the image not good ?
<charlie-tca> either. Classic and unity are both failing right now
<marjo> if functionality not there
<charlie-tca> it doesn't install/login
<cjwatson> period, or just with a11y?
<charlie-tca> Natty won't install with nvidia at all
<cjwatson> anyone know if this is just a general problem?
<cjwatson> I can try a kvm test today
<apw> charlie-tca, bug number ?
<charlie-tca> also won't login for most of us if we do get it to install
<charlie-tca> duh
<cjwatson> if the images are just entirely broken then obviously we need to fix that for a1
<apw> cjwatson, i've booted but not installed the lives from a couple of days ago
<charlie-tca> I don't have the bug number
<pitti> cjwatson: yesterday's image just loops with X start in kvm, haven't had time to investigate yet
<pitti> and I didn't try yet on real iron
<apw> pitti, that is a kernel issue, and only affects kvm
<apw> we have the fix committed for that
<pitti> ah, cool
<charlie-tca> I can get a desktop, but can not run the install. It fails everytime. I will run it again and get a bug for it
<skaet> charlie-tca, cjwatson, apw - is Bug #661568 related?
<tgardner> apw, should we respin natty rather then wait for -rc3 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661568 in nvidia-graphics-drivers-173 (Ubuntu Natty) "nvidia-173 pulls in postfix" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661568
<charlie-tca> no
<cjwatson> fixing kvm asap would be good, I do 95% of my development testing there
<apw> tgardner, am now thinking i should yes, likely we'll get an -rc by monday
<cjwatson> (though obviously not a whole lot just recently)
<charlie-tca> My original question was a11y. Got that answer.
<tgardner> apw, I can take care of it.
<apw> tgardner, will push that today
<skaet> okie.   Looks like it surfaced a bigger problem though... so thanks for raising ;)
<skaet> moving on...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification  - victorp?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification  - victorp?
<victorp> yes
<victorp> I guess I can give you a quick summary of what our plans are
<skaet> :)
<victorp> we plan to start doing *weekly* testing for Natty starting after alpha1
<victorp> the reason for moving from daily to weekly is that we were not finding as many bugs as we should and we are going to concentrate on improving that
<victorp> we are also doing SRU testing for maintenance releases so all of that needs to be juggle on the same lab time
<victorp> we are creating a gcal to track what happens when
<victorp> also we are trying to consolidate all our reporting into a generic hw-cert account on people.c.c
<victorp> that is about it
<victorp> ah yes, we will also do boot metrics
<skaet> victorp, will you be doing a run with the candidate images, before Alpha1, - so we get a baseline with it?
<victorp> skaet: we could, although I was expecting Alpha1 to be the baseline
<victorp> we need some stability before we can do automated testing on large amount of systems
<victorp> also - on the people side of things, Ara will be the lead
<victorp> but she is travelling today
<skaet> victorp,  it would be good to do a sample of them at least - so we know where we are and can warn folks if necessary.
<victorp> skaet - everything is negotiable ;)
<victorp> ok - if you believe there is value lets work together to schedule some
<skaet> victorp,  :)    Thanks!
<skaet> any other questions?
 * skaet looks around for o/ s  ;)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security Team - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team - jdstrand
<jdstrand> o/
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> Our bps and work items should be up to date. With the exception of apparmor items, most of our work for this cycle came from bringing forward lucid and maverick bps that were postponed.
<jdstrand> though apparmor did have several brought forward too...
<jdstrand> Beyond that, there is not a lot to report. Kees is reworking the packaging on AppArmor and fixing various 2.6 bugs (this is part of our long term goal/hope to get apparmor in Debian). jjohansen and I are looking at ipc mediation and dbus confinement, and as a team we are getting to our merges and security fixes for natty.
<skaet> thanks jdstrand.  :)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel Team Update - apw
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team Update - apw
<apw> o/
<skaet> :)
<apw> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-1.html
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> The burndown is still in flux as new work items are still appearing which is affecting the overall burndown line.  This should resolve in the next week.
<apw> Of the bugs called out on the agenda the first is actually an ARM bug.  Of the remainder investigation is ongoing, fuller details are available on the status page (first link above); all seem to be limited to a small number of users.  The main distro blueprints are all at a very early stage but progress is being made, everything planned for natty-alpha-1 seems to be on track currently.
<apw> The main distro kernel is now rebased forward to mainline v2.6.37-rc2 and uploaded.  Recent updates have re-enabled aufs support and the live-cds are now booting succesfully (at least for i386 and amd64).  Which ARM kernels we will have and at which versions are still in the air at this time.
<apw> <done>
<skaet> apw,  thanks.   :)   will adjust the tracking of that first bug.
<skaet> any questions?
<ogra> that bug should also be whishlist ;)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations - cjwatson  ( see above log )
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations - cjwatson  ( see above log )
<ogra> (not a critical SRU task)
<skaet> ogra, ack.
<skaet> there were some questions on the foundation team's status already above.
<davmor2> cjwatson: just to confirm charlie-tca issues on the installs. I left a note on #ubuntu-release last night,  for me plymouth doesn't seem to stop,  All I get is the Ubuntu and the dots below cycling.  If I drop into tty I can stop plymouth and manually start gdm but gdm doesn't appear.   I then ran out of time to do anything and have been too busy today
<skaet> any other questions, comments?
<skaet> moving on then...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team update - robbiew?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - robbiew?
<robbiew> not much to update in this week
<robbiew> sorting out blueprints
<robbiew> mostly done there
<robbiew> have prioritized
<robbiew> but still need to finish up targeting to milestones
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NattyBlueprints
<skaet> thanks
<robbiew> plan to work on a REAL status page for next time
<robbiew> ;)
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any update on bug#600174?
<cjwatson> 600174 looks like a server bug?
<cjwatson> oh, sorry, we moved on to server already
<skaet> :)
<cjwatson> davmor2: thanks
<skaet> any other questions for server team?
 * skaet notes she needs to pick up pace... meeting running long.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Update  - pitti?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team Update  - pitti?
<pitti> Most blueprints are drafted, approved, and have proper WIs, except for:
<pitti> - other-desktop-n-set-default-paper-size-correctly: Needs lots of research, will probably not make natty in its entirety
<pitti> - appdevs-desktop-n-app-sandbox: Allison Randal's spec, just landed under the desktop umbrella, but not being worked on by the desktop team
<pitti> - packageselection-desktop-n-donations-for-free-software-through-software-center: Being worked on by foundations and online services
<pitti> We are on track for natty WIs so far.
<pitti> Alpha-1 chart is a bit behind, but we expect to land the WIs in time still. This particularly affects the unification of desktop and netbook seeds/CDs, and landing the new compiz-based Unity (which is happening as we speak).
<pitti> e already landed the new compiz 0.9, which broke everyone's configuration and key bindings, but will give us early feedback about hardware compatibility and performance.
<pitti> On that front, I bootcharted compiz 0.9, and it's quite a bit faster than 0.8 (maverick) indeed, mostly due to not having to parse tons of XML.
<pitti> ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus has the details about the currently tracked RC bugs.
<skaet> cool
<pitti> sorry,
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> Wrt. CD space savings, all planned package mangling stuff is in now, and reasonably working. On that front we mainly need package rebuilds now.
<pitti> Perl elimination has turned out to be much harder than anticipated; first because it's against the spirit and letter of the Debian Perl policy, and also raised some discussion with upstream. Hardest problem here is apparmor-utils, which has a very long perl lib dependency chain. So let's not count on Perl removal in Natty, but I think the current optimizations should already get us quite far.
<skaet> ok
<skaet> any update on the bugs listed in the agenda?
<pitti> skaet: they are in the wiki page
<pitti> do you want me to paste?
<pitti> there is nothing that stands out as a blocker or discussion worthy IMHO
<skaet> pitti,  no need.   Will read up after the meeting.
<skaet> just needed to know if blocker or discussion worthy ;)
<skaet> thanks pitti
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> no big news to share...details are in the link above...
<joshuahoover> work on desktopcouch, choosing which folders to sync on each computer, and integration with zeigeist is all actively in-progress
<joshuahoover> the other blueprints are either being finalized or are in queue to be worked on next
<joshuahoover> our burndown charts will be fixed after today (need to create proper source tasks)
<joshuahoover> that's about it
<joshuahoover> any questions?
<skaet> thanks joshuahoover :)
<dbarth> joshuahoover: are you guys using libzg btw? ie know that it's moving to gdbus?
<joshuahoover> dbarth: not sure, i'll have to check
<dbarth> joshuahoover: get in touch with kamstrup, he'll tell you all about it
<joshuahoover> dbarth: cool, thanks!
 * skaet looks around for more questions...
<skaet> ok, moving on...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu team update
<skaet> ScottK or Riddell - who's doing the honors?
<Riddell>  * Qt 4.7.1 and QtWebKit 2.1 in
<Riddell>  * ScottK still working on ARM workaround for Qt
<Riddell>  * Experimentally swiched to gstreamer for phonon backend
<Riddell>  * turned on Raster painting engine in Qt
<Riddell>  * KDE SC 4.6 beta 1 due next week
<Riddell>  * https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<Riddell>  we fixed one problem with Qt on ARM but now there's another it seems
<ScottK> Qt is fixed, but GCC is broken and it's Qt that suffers.
<ogra> poor gcc everyone blames it :)
<skaet> :)
<skaet> thanks Riddell.  any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience
<dbarth> hi
<skaet> hi
<dbarth> The status report is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus
<dbarth> the details are there but in general
<dbarth> blueprints and milestones set in details for the next 2 iterations
<dbarth> Unity landed today in Natty
<skaet> cool.
<dbarth> yeah :-)
<dbarth> we're on track with the feature dev. to have all of the launcher and panel again with the compiz version
<skaet> let the testing begin....
<dbarth> try it out, you'll see how faster it is
<dbarth> at the Unity Foundations level (aka Ayatana)
 * ogra would like to see if it works with GLES :)
<dbarth> the work on porting dbusmenu over to gdbus is almost finished
<dbarth> libzg is ready; dee to follow
<dbarth> ogra: yeah, again patches welcome
<dbarth> last
<dbarth> QA: we've connected the dots i think with the QA team
<dbarth> and the integration of test plans and teams is going well
 * ogra isnt a graphics developer else i would be in another team ;)
<marjo> dbarth: ack & thx
<dbarth> and on the HW front, we should do the same with victorp next week to make sure we track the compatibility of Unity on a wide range of machines
<skaet> :)
<skaet> thanks dbarth.     any questions?
<dbarth> and we have tarmac and daily builds running now
 * skaet oops...
<dbarth> that's it for DX
<dbarth> ;)
<skaet> thanks dbarth,  sorry about being too quick there...
<skaet> any questions?
<dbarth> nw
<skaet> [TOPIC] User Experience Team Update
<MootBot> New Topic:  User Experience Team Update
 * skaet looks around..  not sure we've got representation here....
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team Update - ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team Update - ogra
<ogra> wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<ogra> the team was mostly busy with spec preparation and writing
<ogra> OMAP4 daily images build again after Bug 674146 was worked around temporary
<ogra> OMAP3 kernel status is not clear yet, while we would like to use linaros kernel, we need confirmation from kernel and security teams for 18 months support
<ogra> Swork on SRU bugs has been done
<ogra> The FTBFS list on qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs is full of KDE issues caused by Bug 673085 (thanks ScottK for working on a fix)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 674146 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu Natty) "dpkg segfaults during debootstrap on natty armel" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674146
<ogra> The dove architecture has officially been dropped out of official archive builds
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 673085 in Linaro GCC "Qt/KDE fails to build on ARM without implicit-it=thumb" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/673085
<ogra> image status:
<ogra> they are building, not much QA has been done at this state of the release
<ogra> specs:
<ogra> Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<ogra> A1: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-1.html
<ogra> Bugs:
<ogra> mainly SRU bugs we are working on
<ogra> thats it :)
<skaet> thanks ogra.  :)    questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Team Update - ScottK
<ScottK> Hello
<skaet> Hello
<ScottK> Lots of enthusiasm about working on fixing stuff for the toolchain changes on Natty.
<skaet> cool
<ScottK> I think a number of people have their head around the no indirect linking changes and are helping others learn how to fix them.
<skaet> that's nice to hear.
<ScottK> I'm a bit concerned about the changes to -no-as-needed where order now matters in a way it didn't before.
<ScottK> (sorry, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details myself)
<skaet> I'm not sure I understand...
<ScottK> It would be useful if someone who really understands the issue would write up a tutorial.
<ScottK> There was another change added to linker behavior where it's pickier about the order now.
<ScottK> cjwatson: can you help me here?
<cjwatson> basically symbols are processed left-to-right
<cjwatson> (traditional unix linker semantics)
<ScottK> As is usual with gcc, it's just now enforcing what was always that "correct" way to do it, but a lot of sofware is buggy and I don't think people know how to deal with it.
<cjwatson> if you have foo.c which uses symbols from libbar, then the link line needs to be foo.c -lbar not -lbar foo.c
<ScottK> Yes.  That's the one.
<cjwatson> doko did say that he might turn it off, but I think it would be good to leave it in place for a while
<cjwatson> it's not as though the changes are making software worse
<skaet> does it make sense to ask doko to do a write up, we can point folks to?
<ScottK> It would be nice if someone who understands this well would write up a tutorial on it.
<ScottK> cjwatson: I'm not arguing to turn it off at this point, I'd like to do what we can to broaden the set of people that can help fix things.
<skaet> [ACTION] skaet - find someone to write up a tutorial on increasing strictness of linker and ways to fix it.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  skaet - find someone to write up a tutorial on increasing strictness of linker and ways to fix it.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<ScottK> That's all.
 * skaet hmm,  should probably rephrase the action a bit more, but that's the jist.  ;)
<skaet> thanks ScottK.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro Update - JamieBennett?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro Update - JamieBennett?
<JamieBennett> All it quiet in Linaro land :)
<skaet> congrats on getting the release out :)
<JamieBennett> Thanks !
<skaet> quiet is good.
<JamieBennett> No images atm and lots of work on planning
<skaet> when and where will your blueprints be available?
<JamieBennett> They are spread over several projects, not ideal
<cjwatson> skaet: http://wiki.debian.org/ToolChain/DSOLinking covers most of it, but the ordering issue needs to be added
<JamieBennett> we are writing a tool to collate and show this information
<skaet> cjwatson,  thanks!
<JamieBennett> So lots of work-item-tracker changes are planned
<cjwatson> doko: ^- could you make sure the ordering issue shows up in ToolChain/DSOLinking at some point?
<skaet> JamieBennett, cool.   Looking forward to seeing the collated info.
<JamieBennett> skaet: yeah, if the tracking stuff comes off soon, we should have some really good tools
<skaet> excellent - bounce me a link, when you've got some prototypes.   :)
<JamieBennett> will do
<skaet> thanks JamieBennett.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] open floor - new issues, questions, etc. ....
<MootBot> New Topic:  open floor - new issues, questions, etc. ....
<skaet> sorry all about the google calendar glitches.   Can anyone confirm for me, its now correct in Europe and UK?
 * skaet looks around....
<skaet> ok,   feels like this meeting should end then now.
<pitti> if 1600 UTC is supposed to be the new meeting time, it looks correct to me now
<skaet> thanks pitti.   yup,  thats what we were aiming for.
<pitti> (but please let's move it back again in March, otherwise this will go too much into Friday evening)
<skaet> pitti.   ok. will do.  :)
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<skaet> thanks everyone.
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:38.
<skaet> thanks everyone.   Sorry it ran so late today.
<marjo> thx skaet
<skaet> thanks marjo
 * skaet has put on her thinking cap, and will try to get this a little more efficient next time.
<marjo> skaet: don't let the qa guy run on and on
<skaet> lol
<marjo> skaet: he likes to ask for feedback
<skaet> :)
 * skaet heading off for some lunch now...
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-14
<amithkk> Hey cdbs
<amithkk> :)
<ara> Hello!
<jedimike> hi!
<roadmr> hola!
<ara> OK, let's get started :)
<ara> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 14 16:02:22 2011 UTC.  The chair is ara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ara> Agenda:
<ara> Moving this meeting to bi-weekly? -- ara
<ara> Checkbox Oneiric SRU -- roadmr
<ara> Ubuntu Friendly next deployment -- jedimike
<ara> AOB
 * ara have put items for other people there :D
<ara> #topic Moving this meeting to bi-weekly? -- ara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Moving this meeting to bi-weekly? -- ara
<ara> OK, so I have been wondering if it'd make sense to move this meeting to a biweekly cadence
<ara> It made sense to have them weekly when we were rushing to get the beta release out
<jedimike> o/
<brendand> o/
<ara> now that everything is moving to a more normal pace, shall we move to a biweekly one?
<ara> ..
<ara> jedimike, go ahead
<roadmr> o/
<jedimike> i agree
<jedimike> ..
<ara> brendand?
<brendand> we should, unless we find in future that we are getting to many items to discuss in one meeting. but the chances of this happening are very low
<brendand> ...
<ara> roadmr?
<roadmr> Do consider that things slowed down because of a) the release and b) UDS. I'd probably prefer to wait a couple of weeks to see what "normal" attendance looks like
<roadmr> but if we're bringing this to a vote, I'm sure the 2-weekers will prevail, and I'm not vehemently opposed, we can just as easily go 2-week and then switch back to weekly if it's too long
<roadmr> ..
<ara> It is just not a matter of attendance in my opinion, but of development pace
<ara> ..
<brendand> o/
<ara> brendand, yes
<brendand> attendance isn't really the factor so much as agenda length. apart from this item we have only two agenda items and two weeks ago we had one
<cr3> o/
<brendand> ...
<ara> cr3, go ahead, please
<cr3> won't making the meetings bi-weekly affect attendance negatively by lack of mementum?
<cr3> ..
<ara> o/
<roadmr> ara go ahead :)
<ara> I guess that's the risk, but lack of content can affect negatively as well
<ara> ..
<ara> shall we defer this to the mailing list?
<roadmr> o/
<bladernr> o/
<ara> roadmr
<roadmr> I'd like to see this discussed on the mailing list,
<roadmr> that way we also get the ML moving a bit :)
<roadmr> ..
<ara> bladernr, your turn
<cr3> roadmr: any excuse to generate traffic on the mailing list is all good :)
<bladernr> I'm just +1-ing the mailing list... I'd imagine there are more people there that may not have been able to make this meeting who'd want to have input on this
<bladernr> ..
<ara> brendand, jedimike: fine with discussing this at the ml?
<jedimike> ara: yup
 * brendand is
<ara> #action ara to send an email to the mailing list about the cadence of the meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: ara to send an email to the mailing list about the cadence of the meeting
<ara> cool! let's move on to a non meta-topic :)
<ara> #topic Checkbox Oneiric SRU -- roadmr
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Checkbox Oneiric SRU -- roadmr
<ara> roadmr, all yours :P
<roadmr> thanks!
<roadmr> In order to take care of the most painful checkbox issues in Oneiric, an SRU will be published. It's preferable to do this soon, to avoid a lot of fixes piling up, which can slow things down.
<roadmr> The list of bugs scheduled for the 0.12.9 release of checkbox is here:
<roadmr> https://launchpad.net/checkbox/+milestone/0.12.9
<roadmr> If you can take a look at the unfixed bugs and propose a solution that would be appreciated.
<ara> #link https://launchpad.net/checkbox/+milestone/0.12.9
<roadmr> Also keep in mind that per SRU procedure, the fixes have to be *published* (i.e. Fix Released) on Precise - so we need to take into account the time it takes to publish checkbox 0.13 on P and then backport the SRUable fixes to 0.12.
<roadmr> Ideally we should have a cutoff date for the 0.12.9 fixes
<roadmr> after which we'd publish 0.13 to P and get it tested
<roadmr> and then after a reasonable testing time, backport the SRUable bugs and get the SRU process rolling
<ara> o/
<brendand> o/
<roadmr> hopefully I'm not missing anything here, so any ideas or proposals on the dates, or stuff I may be missing?
<roadmr> ..
<roadmr> ara go
<ara> OK, so I think the list is complete enough for a first SRU in Oneiric
<ara> So I would go for it, and try to get as many as possible in trunk
<ara> unless you guys know any other high/critical bug that we should be adding
<ara> ..
<roadmr> brendand your turn
<brendand> strictly speaking, SRUs should be for issues which affect the stability of the application, so i'm concerned about getting some of the test wording fixes in
<brendand> i guess we can try
<brendand> as for dates
<brendand> i think in terms of adding bugs to the list, we should aim for tomorrow (i.e. i think it's complete but just incase we missed any)
<brendand> ...
<roadmr> o/
<ara> roadmr, go!
<roadmr> hehe :) well I think we could take today to ask about the string fixes
<roadmr> instead of just trying to sneak it in
<ara> o/
<roadmr> ..
<roadmr> ara, go ahead
<ara> OK, sounds good. roadmr, can you take the action of talking to the SRU team about the string changes + creating 0.12.10 milestone tomorrow? (for fixes that we might fix in the next SRU)
<roadmr> will do
<ara> #action roadmr  to talk to  the SRU team about the string changes + creating 0.12.10 milestone
<meetingology> ACTION: roadmr  to talk to  the SRU team about the string changes + creating 0.12.10 milestone
<ara> anything else on this topic?
 * roadmr has nothing more
<ara> cool! let's move on :)
<ara> #topic Ubuntu Friendly next deployment -- jedimike
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Friendly next deployment -- jedimike
<ara> jedimike, can you give us an update on what we can expect on the next deployment of UF?
<jedimike> The next deployment of UF has been given a deadline of this thursday (17th)
<jedimike> we will see updated help for the participate page to make it clearer what test we require run
<jedimike> help for people who are having trouble finding their submissions on the site
<jedimike> an updated "report a problem" page which will direct people to the right place for different types of feedback
<jedimike> a stricter policy on skipping tests, if any test we require run is skipped, we reject the submission
<brendand> o/
<jedimike> on the backend, we have a faster way of finding individual submissions to help answer bugs, some stats reporting
<jedimike> and a way to refresh all site data without taking the site down
<jedimike> brendand, go ahead
<brendand> about the 'no skipping' policy. it's a really wide misconception that you should uncheck tests in the test selection screen which you can't run. see e.g. : http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/ubuntu-friendly-usersubmitted-database-computers-work-ubuntu/
<brendand> also when helping someone at the UF session at UDS they tried to do that
<ara> o/
<brendand> ...
<jedimike> brendand: yes, those instructions have been corrected in the upcoming release
<jedimike> ara, go!
<ara> thanks!
<ara> definitely, for Precise, we should really pay attention on how we present that information
<ara> actually, we should open a bug about it and milestone it for Precise
<ara> so we keep track of it
<ara> on the client side, I mean
<ara> ..
 * brendand will take that action
<brendand> o/
<jedimike> brendand, go!
<ara> #action brendan to open a bug about the usability bug on the selection of tests (for Ubuntu Friendly, only) and milestone it for checkbox 0.13
<meetingology> ACTION: brendan to open a bug about the usability bug on the selection of tests (for Ubuntu Friendly, only) and milestone it for checkbox 0.13
<brendand> do we distinguish between not run altogether and skipped?
<brendand> if so, why?
<brendand> ...
<ara> o/
<jedimike> no, if an entire test category is unselected, it will be reported as skipped. If an individual test is skipped, that is reported as skipped to, and we check if it's a skippable test.
<jedimike> ara: go
<ara> that's a good point
<ara> jedimike, if bluetooth is unselect it at the beginning, that's reported as Untested
<ara> what would happen in that case?
<ara> ..
<ara> (obviously that would work only for categories where all tests are skippable)
<jedimike> ara: Untested in UF speak is Skipped :) we need a translator heh
<brendand> o/
<ara> brendand, go
<brendand> so maybe not too much to worry about from the technical side (deselecting bluetooth is the same as skipping every bluetooth test)
<brendand> however it's still a good idea to communicate that tests should only be skipped individually and only where you really can't run them
<brendand> so no change in the action items
<brendand> ...
<ara> cool, thanks jedimike for the clarification and brendand for taking the action item :)
<ara> anything else on the topic?
<jedimike> not from me
<ara> OK, let's move on
<ara> #topic Any Other Business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business?
<ara> anything else?
 * roadmr has nothing else :)
<alourie> may I?
<ara> alourie, sure, go ahead :)
<alourie> I find it strange that running Checkbox seemingly has nothing to do with Friendl
<alourie> y
<ara> o/
<alourie> so I think that at least at the end, where the results are being uploaded, it should be mentioned instead of Launchpad
<alourie> such as:
<alourie> "provide an email address to upload results to Ubuntu Friendly"
<alourie> or something like that
<brendand> o/
<ara> I agree that we need to give a better experience for UF users on the client side, but we have to make sure that we don't lose the "System Testing" goal of checkbox
<alourie> sure
<alourie> and what "Launchpad" has to do with it? :-)
<ara> for Precise, when building the UI, we will try to come up with something that fits both
<cr3> o/
<alourie> ok
<ara> ..
<ara> brendand, go ahead
<brendand> for alourie, the results in ubuntu friendly are taken from launchpad. this is just an architectural detail.
<brendand> as for the original comment. i don't see the harm.
<brendand> people using Checkbox for 'not Ubuntu Friendly' are already well aware of what it does
<brendand> ..
<ara> cr3, your turn
<alourie> brendand: sure, but why would I, as user, knwo that?
<bladernr> o/
<cr3> might the problem be that UF seemlingly has nothing to do with Launchpad?
 * brendand is agreeing with alourie, to be clear
<bladernr> ^^ nevermind ..
<cr3> I think Checkbox should remain agnostic of Ubuntu Friendly in order to encourage others to build services similar to UF, I don't see how Checkbox could know about every other project using results from testing in Launchpad
<alourie> bladernr: thank you
<cr3> ..
<ara> thanks cr3
<ara> anything else?
<alourie> cr3: but what if I, as user, run it as UF, and then have no mention of it in the tool? Doesn't it confuse a little?
<cr3> alourie: perhaps there should be a UF client that would Depend on Checkbox
<alourie> I'm just thinking about a clean and clear experience...
<roadmr> o/
<ara> roadmr, go ahead, please
<roadmr> first thanks to alourie for mentioning this usability problem!
<cr3> Checkbox is infinitely extensible, both good and bad, but this would be an opportunity to use this extensibility for good rather than evil
<roadmr> second, maybe we could have as cr3 says some way to parameterize checkbox so it shows customized information
<roadmr> say checkbox-gtk --for="Ubuntu Friendly" would instruct checkbox to mention UF at key points during the test run
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> and for instance checkbox-gtk --for="Desktop Application Testing" would show that instead
<roadmr> ..
<ara> cr3, your turn
<alourie> roadmr: wow
<cr3> roadmr: if someone in the community develops an Ubuntu Unfriendly program, which is perfectly possible since the information is freely available, should Checkbox know about that project as well?
<alourie> I was afraid to offer that :-)
<roadmr> o/
<cr3> roadmr: why not develop an ubuntu-friendly project with its own intro_prompt plugin, for example, that would be specifically for Ubuntu Friendly?
<cr3> it could even have an Ubuntu Friendly logo people could identify with...
<cr3> ..
<bladernr> cr3:  to avoid a rash of checkbox-* packages?
<ara> roadmr, go ahead
<cr3> bladernr: this is a ubuntu-friendly package, not a checkbox-* package :)
<ara> (and we should be wrapping up this conversation soon)
<roadmr> well it's implementation discussion at this point, my idea is very simplistic but the fact is, we can probably find a way to extend checkbox to show more customized information
<roadmr> as unobtrusively as possible (i.e. not introducing project-specific stuff in checkbox itself)
<roadmr> ..
<cr3> o/
<ara> cr3, go ahead (if it is quick) :)
<cr3> roadmr: indeed, if other projects could extend checkbox by adding files under a .d directory, like /etc/checkbox.d/ubuntu-friendly, which could be accessed from the checkbox-gtk command line, that would work
<cr3> ..
<ara> OK, I think we have been discussed this for a long time now. I guess the summary of it is: people coming to checkbox to test for UF find no relation between the two and any solution to this problem should take care of not putting checkbox too uf specific
<ara> #action ara to file a bug about the usability bug on UF + checkbox relation
<meetingology> ACTION: ara to file a bug about the usability bug on UF + checkbox relation
<cr3> ara: don't forget that people coming to UF find no relation with Launchpad
<alourie> I agree
<ara> cr3, cool, thanks for the reminder
<ara> OK, we run out of time
<ara> so...
<ara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 14 17:01:30 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-14-16.02.moin.txt
<ara> thanks all for the participation!!
<roadmr> thanks!
<alourie> great
<alourie> awesome
<alourie> I also think that #ubuntu-friendly should be in existence already
<bladernr> alourie:  +1
<roadmr> alourie: we normally hang out in #ubuntu-testing if you need to get in touch
<alourie> roadmr: oh, good to know
<alourie> :-)
<brendand> what's the reason we can't get an ubuntu-friendly channel?
<cr3> alourie: perhaps we should wait until we have more people like you actively participating :)
<alourie> cr3: I wouldn't call me active yet
<alourie> :-)
<alourie> but I do have some issues with friendly that I'd like to discuss, just not right now
<roadmr> alourie: are you subscribed to the ubuntu-friendly mailing list?
<alourie> roadmr: of course
<roadmr> alourie: awesome :)
<alourie> that's how I knew about the meeting :-)
<alourie> ok, thanks all
 * alourie has to watch the baby
<alourie> cheers
<roadmr> thanks alourie ! good luck
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> hello!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 14 18:00:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I've got an (unfortunately massive kde) update I will be testing
<jdstrand> then another update I am working on, and several more in the queue after that
<jdstrand> I plan to work with mdeslaur and the team to help get our blueprints/work items in order
<jdstrand> I also have some MIR audits to get to
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing my quagga update
<mdeslaur> should get published this afternoon
<mdeslaur> after that, I have some embargoed issues to look after
<mdeslaur> and need to play with the blueprints/work items
<mdeslaur> that's it for me this week
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week
<sbeattie> err s/triage/community/
<sbeattie> I'm also testing an openjdk update, to hopefully publish later today
<sbeattie> after that I've got more issues in the pipe
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me
<sbeattie> micahg: poke
<jdstrand> I think micahg won't be attending the meeting
<tyhicks> I'll go
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> My focus this week will be on my update queue
<tyhicks> I've got a small start on a freetype update and will then pick others after that
<tyhicks> jjohansen: You're up
<jjohansen> well, its more kernel work flow learning for me, and trying to finish up the environment variable filtering prototype for people to play with, and get more of the permission base rework done on apparmor
<jdstrand> jjohansen: I have a high priority todo item to comment on your env filtering emails
<jjohansen> jdstrand: sure /me was expecting it, but was trying to get a prototype out this weekend
 * jjohansen expects mostly minor changes, like syntax etc, the how to will remain largely the same
<jjohansen> thats it for me, so micahg your up
<jdstrand> I think he is not here
<jdstrand> let's move on
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/samhain.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/phpgroupware.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tangerine.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/php-htmlpurifier.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lft.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> This week we need to have our blueprints and work items in order. Please have them done no later than Friday. We can work together to make sure this happens
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> nope! :P
<jdstrand> Thanks mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks and jjohansen! :)
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 14 18:17:34 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-14-18.00.moin.txt
<tyhicks> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<s-fox> 4 minutes until the meeting Joeb454, bapoumba, s-fox. Anyone seen AI ? /me will get jdong
<Joeb454> not seen AI, no
<kokoye2007> s-fox: today meeting ?
<s-fox> I have AI on a different IM application Joeb454
<kokoye2007> locc meeting s-fox ?
<s-fox> kokoye2007,  No, Forum Council meeting
<kokoye2007> thz s-fox
<s-fox> o/ Artificial_Intel
<Artificial_Intel> hello
<bapoumba> Hey Artificial_Intel !
<Artificial_Intel> I got summoned :-P
<s-fox> Sorry ;)
<s-fox> Okay, shall we start ?
<bapoumba> okay
<Artificial_Intel> I'm ready
<Joeb454> I'm here, somewhere
<s-fox> Haha
<s-fox> Who is going to chair?
<Joeb454> you started it ;) Seriously though, I'd say you're probably the best person. No pressure
<bapoumba> you s-fox :)
<Artificial_Intel> aye
 * s-fox only has used Mootbot, lol
<bapoumba> s-fox, which items do we have on the list ?
<s-fox> Oh meetingology is in the room. Know how to use that
<s-fox> :)
<s-fox> #startmeeting Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 14 20:11:06 2011 UTC.  The chair is s-fox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<s-fox> #meetingtopic Current Agenda is out of date
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:
<s-fox> #topic Agenda is currently out of date
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:  Agenda is currently out of date
<s-fox> So, anyone object if we just clear it off and start afresh ?
<bapoumba> np from me s-fox
<Artificial_Intel> aye for me
<Joeb454> makes sense to me too
<s-fox> AFAIK the only current item is the psumi one, and that has been dealt with. It is now in the hands of the CC
<s-fox> Should we clear that also?
<bapoumba> +1
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<Joeb454> +1
<s-fox> +1
<s-fox> #agreed Clear old agenda items
<s-fox> Hmm.
<s-fox> Oh I know what I did wrong, silly me. Sorry guys
<s-fox> #vote clear old agenda items
<meetingology> Please vote on: clear old agenda items
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<s-fox> Joeb454,  vote :)
<Joeb454> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<Joeb454> sorry
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: clear old agenda items
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> \o/
<bapoumba> congrats s-fox :)
<s-fox> lol, thanks
<s-fox> anyone got any items they want to bring to the table?
<bapoumba> scheduled meetings ?
<s-fox> Okay, lets talk about that :)
<s-fox> I think bodhi is right in wanting to alternate friday / monday meetings so every council member can attend at least every other meeting
<bapoumba> we should set up a calendar for the FC that feeds the frige calendar
<s-fox> +1
<bapoumba> and saves the spot in #ubuntu-meeting
<bapoumba> we were lucky no meeting was scheduled tonight
 * s-fox nods
<Artificial_Intel> any day, except for Wednesday for me.
<s-fox> #vote set up FC fridge calender
<meetingology> Please vote on: set up FC fridge calender
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Joeb454> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bapoumba> alternate monday / friday works for me for now
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: set up FC fridge calender
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Joeb454> I mentioned on the FC list why I might not be able to do some Fridays, but I'll do what I can
<Joeb454> especially now it's on record
<s-fox> #vote Alternate meeting days between friday and mondays
<meetingology> Please vote on: Alternate meeting days between friday and mondays
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<Joeb454> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Alternate meeting days between friday and mondays
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> Getting into the swing of this ;)
<bapoumba> cool s-fox
<bapoumba> and thanks btw
<s-fox> How often should we meet?  Once a month?
<bapoumba> sounds good
<bapoumba> too often I might get used to IRC again
<s-fox> We have our ML too so anything urgent can go to it
<Artificial_Intel> good enough for me
<s-fox> #vote meet once per month
<meetingology> Please vote on: meet once per month
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<Joeb454> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: meet once per month
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> Um, any other items?
<Joeb454> I did think of something this morning, but it eludes me right now, annoyingly
<Artificial_Intel> We could discuss T&E?
<s-fox> Okay, post what you want to discuss Artificial_Intel
<s-fox> The floor is yours
<bapoumba> I'm not sure we have a consensus Artificial_Intel
<Artificial_Intel> We can't be happy with status quo?
<Joeb454> Artificial_Intel: you mean leave things as they are?
<Artificial_Intel> aye, we have also heard from the users, we'll soon have to take actions.
<s-fox> Remind me, did we make T&E not count as a support post ?
<bapoumba> For now, as many different views have been expressed
<bapoumba> s-fox, we all agree for not count
<Artificial_Intel> or getting a step to the next part of changing T&E
<Joeb454> perhaps we should conduct some sort of poll or survey?
<s-fox> Personally I think the T&E threads should close after the first post. It is not a place for discussion.
<s-fox> Joeb454,  Might work, willing to give it a go
<bapoumba> I'm not sure I agree
<bapoumba> users wont understand
<Artificial_Intel> I'm with s-fox on this one. Not that also can see the other way around,.
<Artificial_Intel> then we have to call it something else, bapoumba.
<Joeb454> I'd prefer to keep T&E open to discussion. It's one of those areas where the focus isn't solely support, and /can/ help it feel less like a support forum, and more where people just like to visit
<bapoumba> either we allow, in a dedicated place with clear rules, or these discussions will spill over the other categories anyway
<Joeb454> I appreciate that there's often flaming in there, but regardless, I think it does help
<s-fox> What if we let the community decide in a poll Joeb454?
<bapoumba> hmm
<s-fox> We can always undo the change if it doesn't work out so great
<Joeb454> works for me, it's their choice then
<Artificial_Intel> Can we set up a poll seen in all our forums?
<s-fox> I think if we put as global notice for a couple weeks?
<Joeb454> I can do that after I've eaten if you like?
<bapoumba> we should be careful about the wording Joeb454
<s-fox> #vote Set up poll and let community decide what to do with T&E and follow through
<meetingology> Please vote on: Set up poll and let community decide what to do with T&E and follow through
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<Joeb454> +1
<bapoumba> 0
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<meetingology> 0 received from bapoumba
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Set up poll and let community decide what to do with T&E and follow through
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> Okay, Joeb454 You going to do that?
<Joeb454> bapoumba: true, maybe we should draft something on the FC list, or the staff forum first
<bapoumba> yeah
<bapoumba> ask other Staff
 * s-fox nods
<Joeb454> s-fox: I'll do it, yes, but see above, probably worth delaying the poll by a day to make sure we're all happy with how it could be read
<bapoumba> +1
<Artificial_Intel> a poll for staff and a poll for users?
<s-fox> I agree.  Draft and post for staff review
<s-fox> Artificial_Intel,  -1, all in one big poll
<bapoumba> some Staff are very active in the category and give valuable input
<Artificial_Intel> ok, I just misunderstood the question :P
<Joeb454> one poll to rule them all Artificial_Intel ;)
<s-fox> lol
<s-fox> Any other items?
<s-fox> No?
<Artificial_Intel> any news regarding forum upgrades?
<bapoumba> I think the spam measures on usergroups are working pretty well
<s-fox> Okay, upgrade first then spam stuff.
<bapoumba> okay
<s-fox> #topic Forum upgrade
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:  Forum upgrade
<Joeb454> Artificial_Intel: T-V is working on it still. I'll email him later to see if there's an update
<s-fox> AFAIK TV is sorting it
<s-fox> Guess not much to say other than get an update from TV
<bapoumba> Joeb454, regarding statistics (remotely connected)
<Artificial_Intel> ok, it just seems we're the forums answer to Duke nuke'em :P
<bapoumba> I asked UG for the login to soogle analytics
<Joeb454> bapoumba: oh? Does he still have it?
<bapoumba> I do not know :(
<bapoumba> I asked the day the thread appeared
<s-fox> #topic Spam measures
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:  Spam measures
<s-fox> Do we think it is working
<s-fox> ??
<bapoumba> yes
<bapoumba> :Ã¾
<bapoumba> no moar profile spam
<s-fox> :)
<s-fox> Okay :) I know some are still moaning at it.
<Artificial_Intel> It's working, I actually have time to help out in the support now.
<bapoumba> I cannot imagine we were spending  a coulpe hours a day each on that
<Artificial_Intel> Instead of spam hunting and cleaning.
<Joeb454> it is working, and users are finally getting used to it
<s-fox> I know,  I now have a social life and not working on stuff behind the scenes
<bapoumba> yes
<s-fox> #vote Keep current anti-spam measures
<meetingology> Please vote on: Keep current anti-spam measures
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bapoumba> +1
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<bapoumba> Joey ?
<Artificial_Intel> he's eating spam :P
<s-fox> You're missing the vote on pink name
<s-fox> ;)
<s-fox> Joeb454 PING
<bapoumba> Joeb454, say +1 please
<Joeb454> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<s-fox> Yay
<bapoumba> \o/
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Keep current anti-spam measures
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> Okay, anything else?
<Joeb454> nothing from me
<Artificial_Intel> Will this be updated? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<bapoumba> glad you are offering to Artificial_Intel :)
<s-fox> Yes.  It needs to be when we get rid of old stuff
<s-fox> +1 bapoumba
<s-fox> #topic update wiki page
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:  update wiki page
<s-fox> #vote Update wiki
<meetingology> Please vote on: Update wiki
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<bapoumba> 'and the monthly reports ...)
<Artificial_Intel> it doesn't look good with outdated wiki :P
<Joeb454> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Update wiki
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Artificial_Intel> the monthly report usually have its own link on the forum as I recall it?
<Artificial_Intel> or sub
<bapoumba> Artificial_Intel, ?
<s-fox> I cannot recall.
<bapoumba> did not know that
<s-fox> We'll have to have a poke around and look.
<bapoumba> I was talking about team monthly report
<s-fox> Hmm.
<Artificial_Intel> I think it did, I usually clicked it to read what the previous FC was talking about
<bapoumba> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/
<Joeb454> I don't think we had a sub-forum for it...I don't remember it anyway
<bodhi_zazen> sorry to be late =)
<s-fox> Right, we done?
<Artificial_Intel> the beers is on bodhi :)
<s-fox> white wine please :)
<bodhi_zazen> whine ?
<bapoumba> s-fox, did you see the link I gave earlier ?
<s-fox> which one bapoumba, repost?
<bapoumba> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/
<s-fox> Oh okay. We need to do that
<bapoumba> I think so
<s-fox> #topic Team reports
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:  Team reports
<s-fox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/
<s-fox> hmmm
<s-fox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/
<s-fox> Oh well, it'll be in the log
<s-fox> I don't think anything to vote on, but we should do it.
<s-fox> Any volunteers?
<s-fox> I can probably help a bit
<bapoumba> So can I
<s-fox> Okay, me and you do it bapoumba?
<bapoumba> when time permits :/
<bapoumba> yes
<s-fox> Same here
<s-fox> #action s-fox and bapoumba to write forums report
<meetingology> ACTION: s-fox and bapoumba to write forums report
<s-fox> :)
<bodhi_zazen> We could rotate the person responsible for team report
<s-fox> I don't mind doing them, I like repetitive things ;)
<s-fox> Once I know exactly how they work
<bodhi_zazen> \o/
<bapoumba> eheh
<bapoumba> I get easily bored with repetitive stuff
<bapoumba> but I'll do it
<bapoumba> team work I like
<s-fox> Oh, if anyone objects I would like to chair the next meeting, where I will be more up to speed with this bot
<s-fox> sorry, doesn't object
<s-fox> ;)
<bapoumba> ok
<Joeb454> fine by me
<bodhi_zazen> OK , and did we post an agenda for this meeting ?
<bapoumba> thanks for offering s-fox
<Artificial_Intel> ok, fine with me. I'm a bigger tool to mess things up.
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, nope
<s-fox> bodhi_zazen,  We sort of winged it, but it was organised :)
<bodhi_zazen> OK, I will read the logs
<s-fox> It'll be in the logs
<bapoumba> tried to get to the fridge cal thingy but was too late bodhi_zazen
<s-fox> Okay, I am going to end the meeting. Any complaints?
<bapoumba> nope
<bodhi_zazen> Moving forward - agenda + broader community notification + ? UF Membership at meetings ?
 * bodhi_zazen goes to complain
<s-fox> Oh, that is an item we didn't cover
<s-fox> UF Membership at meetings
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, UF memberships at UF
<bodhi_zazen> yea
<s-fox> #topic UF Membership at meetings
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:  UF Membership at meetings
<Joeb454> I'm indifferent on this one
<bodhi_zazen> I would propose we cover membership at meetings
<s-fox> I am +0
<bapoumba> hmm
<s-fox> It would mean getting forum users onto irc
<s-fox> Potentially
<s-fox> Almost as bad as signing the CoC in launchpad
<bodhi_zazen> Not necessarily, but we could invite them if needed
<bapoumba> I like th epublic discussions
<bodhi_zazen> The BT would probably help get them up to speed if needed
<bapoumba> but some users may not want to come
<s-fox> We do have the public discussion board, but our voting does not go ahead in public. Is this a bad thing?
<bodhi_zazen> I would not *require* they come her
<Artificial_Intel> ...and there's the time differences to put into account.
<bapoumba> s-fox, I do not know
<s-fox> Artificial_Intel,  Good point
<bapoumba> being public is always good
<bapoumba> we have the discussion threads in the membership category
<s-fox> It would also need to tie in with our agreed monthly meetings
<bapoumba> if they cannot come due to timezones, its okay
<s-fox> Okay, I am happy with that
<s-fox> They can add themselves to the agenda if they are coming
<bapoumba> once a month is good
<Artificial_Intel> as long it isn't mandatory.
<bapoumba> and we have a time line
<s-fox> +1
<s-fox> #vote Ubuntu Membership at council meetings in public
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Membership at council meetings in public
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bapoumba> if we (FC) cannot attend, we can send our votes to the ml or the discussion category
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhi_zazen
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<Joeb454> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Joeb454
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<Artificial_Intel> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Artificial_Intel
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Membership at council meetings in public
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Joeb454> I wouldn't call that carried
<Joeb454> there's still jdong and iowan
<s-fox> We can get them to vote also and recount
<s-fox> Probably on the ml?
<bapoumba> +1
<Artificial_Intel> I don't have a problem with that.
<s-fox> #topic post all vote topics on ml and get jdong and iowan input
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Current Agenda is out of date Meeting | Current topic:  post all vote topics on ml and get jdong and iowan input
<s-fox> +1
<bapoumba> +1
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<bodhi_zazen> or in the monthly team report =)
<s-fox> #vote Repost voting on ml for others
<meetingology> Please vote on: Repost voting on ml for others
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bapoumba> s-fox is having fun ;)
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhi_zazen
<s-fox> No, just forgetful bapoumba ;)
<s-fox> Joeb454 ...
<Joeb454> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Joeb454
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Repost voting on ml for others
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> Right, we're running over. Anything else or can I end it?
<bapoumba> fine with me
<Joeb454> fine with me too
<Artificial_Intel> I have nothing more
<s-fox> +1
<s-fox> bodhi_zazen ?
<s-fox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 14 21:05:35 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-14-20.11.moin.txt
<s-fox> That was fun.
<s-fox> ;) Thanks for being put on the spot Joeb454
<Artificial_Intel> now to the after party
<bapoumba> thanks s-fox :)
<s-fox> I promise I will be more familiar with this bot for the next meeting
<bapoumba> you did wonderfully s-fox
<s-fox> I am only ever really used mootbot
<s-fox> Thanks :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-15
<jasonjang> Good morning~ Mr. Lamont
<lamont> so far
<jasonjang> ^^
<jasonjang> 11:34 am ?
<jasonjang> lamont: A day ago, I mailed U.           If U feel free, please read my mail. rt #18364. THX C ya~
<lamont> jasonjang: does this really want to be in #ubuntu-meeting, maybe you want #ubuntu-mirrors?
<jasonjang> Hmmm.. Web site DNS fixing of LoCo team, ubuntu-kr.org
<jasonjang> Oh~ Mr. LaMont jones. I realized Ur location LATEY, I'm sorry if i disturded sleep.
<jasonjang> I'm sorry if i disturbed sleep.
<lamont> I'm actually in UK this week, and focused on other things atm
<jasonjang> OK. THX.
<jasonjang> C U later all~
<smoser> o/
<smb> \o
<hallyn> \o
<hallyn> Daviey, yo
<zul> hi
<Daviey> hey hallyn
<hallyn> Daviey, ready to roll?
<hallyn> its past 1600 utc
<Daviey> hallyn: good point.. Who is chairing?
 * hallyn points at Daviey
<Daviey> hallyn: i did week before last.. Ursinha is next on the list.
<hallyn> haha, i just put her on there 2 mins ago :)
 * Daviey is to blame for not updating the wiki.
<hallyn> Ursinha, ready?
<Daviey> Sorry for being absent, on a call.
<hallyn> jamespage, want to take your turn?
<Daviey> jamespage is sprinting..
<Daviey> smoser: can you drive?
<hallyn> perhaps we should adjourn
<smoser> i can drive.
<smoser> although i'd jsut as well second the motion to adjourn
<smoser> :)
<smoser> #start-meeting Ubuntu Server Team
<soren> (no dash)
<hallyn> since the only action item is regarding jamespage who isn't here
<smoser> #start meeting Ubuntu Server Team
<smoser> gah
<soren> (no space either)
<smoser> #startmeeting Ubuntu Server Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 15 16:12:14 2011 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:
<jamespage> o/
<smoser> ok
<jamespage> around but am at a sprint :-)
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<smoser> #TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> ACTION: smb, jamespage, hggdh to work on triaging bug #790712 (carry over)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790712 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "20110531 i386 server ISO: order 5 allocation failure during install" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790712
<smoser> smoser, jamespage hggdh ? anything there?
<smb> hggdh has closed it after verifying it did not occur on precise
<hggdh> smoser: done, I closed the bug fixreleased on Precise, wontfix on oneiric and natty (after talking with smb)
<smoser> thank you sir.
<Daviey> smb: accidental fix, or something resolved it?
<hggdh> unknown fix
<smb> smb, magic
<hggdh> act of god?
<smb> Daviey, ^
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> It's fixed, that is the main thing. :)
<smoser> #TOPIC Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Precise Development
<Daviey> Blueprints, Blueprints, Blueprints.
<smoser> The thing to be aware of is that feature definition freeze is coming up
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule?action=show&redirect=PreciseReleaseSchedule
<Daviey> Many of the blueprints are not fully spec'd out.  They need to be final by EoW..  Please keep in mind that robbiew and myself need time to review before this.
<smoser> bad url.
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<hallyn> smoser, and what exactly does that mean?  all 'actions' must be in the blueprints?
<robbiew> All workitems need to be in the blueprints
<hallyn> k
<smoser> well, realistically it means someone (robbiew) has to end up saying "yes we're going to work on this" for this cycle
<roaksoax> o/
<robbiew> so we can effectively track our progress and workload
<Daviey> Are there any questions regarding blueprint process?
<smoser> and you have to provide him with enough info to actually make that decision
<robbiew> smoser: exactly...thx
<utlemming> as a point of clarification, are work items just little "TODO" labels in the blueprint?
<Daviey> If anyone does have any questions, please raise them in #ubuntu-server after the meeting.
<Daviey> utlemming: err, TODO is appended to the end
<smoser> utlemming, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto
<smoser> moving on
<Daviey> Next on development... zul, cobbler merge.. any progress?
<smoser> moving back
<zul> still waiting for 2.2.2 but we are closer
<Daviey> zul: can we not get a snapshot in this week?
<roaksoax> zul: did they merge your patches yet?
<zul> Daviey: yeah we can..
<zul> roaksoax: not yet
<Daviey> Really want to land Clint and rbasak's security fixes asap.
<Daviey> hallyn: libvirt merge from sid?
<zul> Daviey: will do it this afternoon
<hallyn> Daviey, haven't started it
<hallyn> should be trivial
<Daviey> bug 890036 fyi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890036 in libvirt (Ubuntu) "Please merge libvirt 0.9.7-2 from Debian unstable (main)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890036
<hallyn> yeah yeah yeah :)
<hallyn> i think we want 7-3 by now
<hallyn> they're moving fast
<Daviey> bug 607039 needs an assignee.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in autofs5 (Ubuntu) "NFS automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<Daviey> anyone keen to work with NFS, please sign up to it.
<zul> *snicker*
<hallyn> hm, well the automount part, i am going to have to look at autofs wrt namespaces real soon now
<Daviey> i think bug 888671, just needs a final review and sponsor.. smoser, i'd quite like your thoughts on that
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888671 in facter (Ubuntu) "Please merge facter 1.6.2 (main) from Debian testing (main)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888671
<smoser> i have no expertise there, but i'll take a look after meeting
<Daviey> adam_g: cobbler-enlist.. have you been able to touch it?
<Daviey> smoser: it's more that i'd like a second opinion.
<smoser> k.
<Daviey> zul: bug 871278, will land this Friday in Precise right?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 871278 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "Cannot attach volumes to instances if tgt is used" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/871278
<zul> Daviey: yeah
<Daviey> zul: can you, or walk someone through the SRU process if required?
<zul> Daviey: ack
<Daviey> mcollective.. switching to activemq.. any concerns?
<Daviey> via bug 874981
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 874981 in mcollective (Ubuntu) "Please merge/sync mcollective from debian wheezy" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/874981
<Daviey> make them known on the bug if so.
<Daviey> zul: bug 879853, missing patches still?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879853 in munin (Ubuntu) "Munin upload 1.4.6-1ubuntu1 drops fixes / sponsor debdiff instead" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879853
<zul> Daviey: yeah
<Daviey> jdstrand: would you be happy to do a MIR review of bug 889243? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889243 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "[MIR] squid3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889243
 * Daviey will follow up with koolhead regarding bug 875262
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<jdstrand> Daviey: I wasn't sure how appropriate it would be for me to do that. if you guys have dotted all the Is and crossed the Ts already, then I can talk a look
<Daviey> roaksoax: bug 880339? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880339 in mysql-5.1 (Ubuntu Precise) "AppArmor profile needs update" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880339
<Daviey> zul: Do you consider the I's and T's dotted?
<zul> Daviey: i think so
<roaksoax> Daviey: again, I tested this in two oneiric machines and didn't see any issues
<Daviey> bug 887410, needs an assignee... seemingly biteish-size if someone wants to grab it.. anyone?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887410 in apache2 (Ubuntu Precise) "plymouth ask-for-passphrase" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887410
<Daviey> roaksoax: can you mark it invalid if you believe so, and state what you did to test?
<zul> Daviey:  clint should probably look at the plymouth one
<Daviey> hallyn: Progress to get bug 876768 fixed in Debian?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876768 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] netcf" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876768
<Daviey> zul: good idea.
<hallyn> Daviey, none.
<Daviey> ok
<hallyn> Need to find a sponsor.
<Daviey> utlemming: need a hand with bug 881464?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881464 in keystone (Ubuntu) "[MIR] keystone" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881464
<hallyn> (the one i asked is too busy)
<Daviey> hallyn: Ah, if that is all you are blocked on.. we can get that fix0rd!
<hallyn> yes, that's all.
<hallyn> packaging is done from my pov
<smoser> Daviey, anything else ?
<Daviey> I don't think so
<Daviey> Anything from anyone else?
<Daviey> Any other bugs that should be tracked?
<Ursinha> (sorry guys, I forgot today would be a national holiday)
<Daviey> (please do raise them)
<Daviey> Ursinha: No problem, we'll catch up tomorrow.
<smoser> #TOPIC Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anyone ?
<smoser> #TOPIC Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> hey hallyn !
<Daviey> err, hggdh
<hggdh> heh
<smoser> hggdh, you have anything ? anyone have anything for hggdh ?
<hggdh> OK
<Daviey> hggdh / jamespage: how is the sprint going?
<Daviey> Any outcomes so far?
<hggdh> still on its infacy, I think (I am remote, due to family illness)
<hggdh> please do not forget the tests...
<jamespage> TBH first half of week is tear down and rebuild the Ubuntu QA test lab :-)
<Daviey> hggdh: The human based testing needs a serious refresh, right?
<jamespage> OpenStack testing servers are now racked - power and network in progress
<Daviey> (methodology.)
<hggdh> yes, it does, and we are looking at them
<Daviey> jamespage: That is great to hear!
<Daviey> hggdh: Okay.. are you drafting a list of areas that need fixing?
<hggdh> Daviey: and the unittests we currently have need beefing up
<hggdh> Daviey: yes, we will be doing it. Meanwhile, please remember to start adding tests to the patches
<robbiew> jamespage: \0/
<Daviey> hggdh: Okay, will you be able to report next week where we need improvement?
<hggdh> Daviey: most certainly
<Daviey> hggdh: 'tests to the patches'?
<hggdh> Daviey: well, if a patch changes something (which usually happens), then it would be nice to have an unit test for it
<Daviey> hggdh: a package derived unit test, if the package supports it's own unit testing?
<hggdh> Daviey: EVEN better!
<hggdh> then we can run it anytime
<Daviey> Hmm.. We don't yet have a framework for external unit tests, do we?
<Daviey> other than the lp:qa-regression-suite , right?
<hggdh> no, not yet. By end-of-week we should have directions
<Daviey> hggdh: great
<hggdh> and this is it from me
<hggdh> ..
<Daviey> thanks hggdh !
<smoser> #TOPIC Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
 * smb has two things...
<smb> First bug 881076: Workaround (idle=halt) proposed and smoser has build images. Upstream still discussing how to really fix this.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881076 in linux (Ubuntu) "precise kernels do not boot on ec2" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881076
<smoser> smb, well, imags have not successfully been built as a result of a perl issue at the moment.
<smb> So s/has/will/ :)
<Daviey> smoser: since when?
<smb> Anyway, the "right" fix seems to be highly debatable. I follow it upstream
<smoser> perl transition.
<smoser> so once that gets sorted out, we'll get images iwith that ahck around.
<Daviey> great
<smb> The second thing is that I have been reading my work item about openvswitch today (this time with my brains actually turned on). And somehow I remember the request a bit differently. IMO it was to bring the package into main, not the module into the kernel...
<Daviey> smb: is bug 854050 fixed in Precise?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 854050 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.38/mm/swapfile.c:255" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854050
<smoser> smb, i would think we'd need both.
<Daviey> smb: I don't see why it should be in the kernel, dkms makes more sense until it's mainline upstream, right?
<smb> Daviey, I need to check, this has been a bit of a fail on the maintainer submission
<smb> smoser, I'd be with Daviey there
<smoser> ah. yeah, dkms is fine.
<smoser> i thought you were implying it was in kernel just not enabled.
<smb> It just makes things prone to bit rot in any part
<smb> Ah k. No the package provides a dkms binary
<smb> But the package is in universe right now, so I think that need an mir
<smoser> right.
<smoser> Daviey, we want an action for mir of openvswitch?
<smoser> at least to open bug. if its agreed, then i'll take action
<smoser> smoser, just fyi, i'd like bug 890447 addressed.
<smb> Daviey, After looking quickly the patch for 854050 is not upstream yet
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890447 in linux (Ubuntu) "need to manually run depmod after installation of linux-image-extra-VERSION-virtual package" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890447
<Daviey> smoser: Hmm, are we MIR'ing NaaS componet?
<Daviey> Quantum
<smoser> i think no
<zul> no
<smb> smoser, Noted as I think you meant me :)
<zul> its not part of core project so it stays in universe
<Daviey> So what part needs openvswitch?
<smoser> smb i did indeed.
<Daviey> Don't you need Quantum for openvswitch?
<smoser> you need neither for neither explicitly
<smoser> but likely quantum would use openvswitch, at least in the open source paths.
<zul> why is openvswitch getting MIRed again?
<smoser> but anyway, it i think it is not. i'm not sure why this came up, and i responded poorly.
<Daviey> zul: that is what i am trying to find out
<smoser> anyone have a reason as to why openvswitch should be MIRd?
<Daviey> Are we MIR'ing a a non openstack option, or something to use as openstack?
<zul> i dont
<smoser> ok. unless someone provides one, we are not.
<medberry> will Quantum have any usefulness without it?
<hallyn> i thought we wanted it for openstack i think
<hallyn> lemme look over the mtg notes
<smoser> ugh.
<smoser> ok. i think this is all true:
<Daviey> medberry: Yes, but if Quantum is in universe, there is no archive requirement for openvswitch to be in main
<smoser>  * quantum can use openvswitch.
<zul> quantum is *not* going into main
<medberry> Daviey, nod.
<Daviey> Unless there is another use-case we care about?
<smoser>  * quantum can use other networking back ends
<medberry> gotcha.
<smoser>  * quantum will is not a part of openstack core (or whatever thats called) for essex
<Daviey> smoser: table this, unti we get more info.
<medberry> yep, quantum can use real hardware
<smoser>  * some parties have requested we support quantum
<smoser> moving on.
<smoser> smb, you have ability to at least assign that depmod bug to the rigth person?
<smb> smoser, Yes, or take it myself
<smoser> please do.
<Daviey> any other kernel bugs?
<smoser> other than bugs listed, the kernel has no bugs
<smoser> #TOPIC Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<smoser> NCommander, ?
<Daviey> (thanks smb)
<smoser> i'm thinking this is a no-op?
<smoser> #TOPIC Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<Daviey> NCommander: your call starts in 7 mins.
<smoser> Daviey, and this meeting is supposed to end in 7mins. so i say we move on.
<smoser> any ubuntu community related stuff?
<Daviey> Any new Ubuntu Server people here want to say hello?
<zul> any shoutouts?
<Daviey> no homie.
<Daviey> smoser: next?
<smoser> i've seen good things from a guy named Chuck Shortk
<medberry> going going ....
<smoser> #TOPIC Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<Daviey> Nothing from me.
<smoser> #TOPIC Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> rocking, thanks smoser
<smoser> next meeting is Tuesday 2011-11-22 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 15 16:57:12 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-15-16.12.moin.txt
 * smb got 3mins for a bio break...
<ogasawara> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 15 16:59:52 2011 UTC.  The chair is ogasawara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ogasawara> ##
<ogasawara> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<ogasawara> ##
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<ogasawara> # Meeting Etiquette
<ogasawara> #
<ogasawara> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<ogasawara> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Besides the usual SRU kernels, there's nothing else to report.
<ppisati> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara> ==== precise nominated bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 32 linux kernel bugs (up 12)
<ogasawara> ==== Ubuntu precise-alpha-1 bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara> ==== <series>-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 precise linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 10 oneiric linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 10 natty linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Incoming Bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 8 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 635 oneiric bugs (down 5)
<ogasawara>  * 1677 natty bugs (down 3)
<ogasawara>  * 1099 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 979 lucid bugs (down 4)
<ogasawara>  * 43 hardy bugs (down 3)
<ogasawara> === Regressions ===
<ogasawara> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 7 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 19 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 40 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 76 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 1 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 61 oneiric bugs (up 6)
<ogasawara>  * 434 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 236 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 208 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 1 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 4 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/all-precise-alpha-1.html
<ogasawara> I'll begin posting my nag table once the following url is generated and available - http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/precise/canonical-kernel-team-oneiric-alpha-1.html is not yet available.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have uploaded the 3.1.0-2.3 Ubuntu kernel which was based on the upstream v3.1 kernel. Upstream is in the early -rc releases of the v3.2 kernel, ie currently v3.2-rc1.  Given a higher likelihood for instability with an early -rc, we will hold off doing the first 3.2.0-1.1 upload until we rebase onto upstream v3.2-rc2. I would anticipate this prior to Alpha 1 (Thurs Dec 1). If there are any patches which need to land in
<ogasawara> the 12.04 kernel, submit them now so that they receive adequate testing and feedback.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||    8 (-5) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    5 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    6 (-4) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||    6 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    4 (+2) ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    4      ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    5 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    5 (-8) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    5 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    5 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    7 (-3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    6 (-3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    4 (+2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    4      ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    6 (-4) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    6 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    4      ||
<apw>  
<apw> We have had a fairly large number of new CVEs added since the last report.
<apw> Progress continues well with the overall backlog remaining pretty much
<apw> constant.  We retain a couple of stubourn CVEs which still have no fix
<apw> upstream.  Some process fixes in the security team have brought down
<apw> the number of pending fixes and produced USNs.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<ogasawara> bjf is sprinting and herton is on holiday.  We'll be updates next week.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<ogasawara> Meeting chair...I'll chair the next few meetings and then jsalisbury has graciously offered to chair indefinitely going forward.
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> awsome
<ogasawara> unless anyone has anything else, I think that's a wrap.
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 15 17:05:39 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-15-16.59.moin.txt
<czajkowski> itnet7: leogg huats
<huats> hello everyone
<czajkowski> #meeting
<leogg> hey all
<czajkowski> bah
<kokoye2007> ya huats
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 15 20:01:22 2011 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> hmm
<czajkowski> tonights agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> kokoye2007: ready ?
<kokoye2007> yeah
<bonepyaesone> :)
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MyanmarTeam/ApprovalApplication
<czajkowski> ok
<kokoye2007> we are from ubuntu-mm bonepyaesone TH_
<czajkowski> kokoye2007: so want to tell us about your team ?
<czajkowski> and what kind of things ye guys do in your loco please?
<kokoye2007> http://enblog.u4mm.com
<bonepyaesone> ok. we've done a lot of events in past 3 years
<itnet7> here, now sorry
<bonepyaesone> especially introduction ubuntu to public
<TH_> now more active than before
<czajkowski> ok, the wiki page seems a bit broken is it just my connection folks ?
<czajkowski> you mention in your road map about a local repository, can you tell us more about this ?
<czajkowski> bonepyaesone: TH_ kokoye2007 ?
<itnet7> everything is looking good from me czajkowski !
<TH_> local repository is more important for our country because our country connection
<itnet7> Approval-wise
<czajkowski> huats: leogg any other thoughts folks ?
<bonepyaesone> we'll set up a repo server and syn every 2 week. And we distribute them as offline repo
<bonepyaesone> :D
<huats> I am quite happy to see so many pics
<huats> seems like a good team actions
<itnet7> I mean... wiki page
<itnet7> but very good solid work
<czajkowski> ok my only suggestion is for team reports folks
<bonepyaesone> :D
<czajkowski> are we ready to vote so ?
<leogg> not from me, looks you guys been doing a great job
<leogg> I'm ready
<czajkowski> #voters leogg itnet7 huats czajkowski
<meetingology> Current voters: czajkowski huats itnet7 leogg
<czajkowski> #vote
<meetingology> Please vote on:
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<leogg> +1
<huats> +1
<czajkowski> +1
<AlanBell> vote needs a subject
 * AlanBell goes to file a bug
<czajkowski> itnet7: ping
<bonepyaesone> :D
<itnet7> +1
<itnet7> sorry...
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> No vote in progress
<czajkowski> clearly me and the bot are not going to see eye to eye
<AlanBell> you will learn to love each other!
<czajkowski> with 4 +1s you are now an approved loco
<czajkowski> leogg: can you add to approved teams please
<itnet7> Please, defintely share more of what your team is doing through team reports!!
<leogg> czajkowski, sure!
<czajkowski> leogg: thanks
<czajkowski> #topic UDS blueprint
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UDS blueprint
<bonepyaesone> Thank you czajkowski  AlanBell  itnet7  and leogg
<itnet7> Congrats!!
<kokoye2007> Thank czajkowski AlanBell itnet7 leogg
<czajkowski> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-lococouncil
<TH_> thank you all
<bonepyaesone> yeah!!
<leogg> kokoye2007, bonepyaesone, congrats and thank you!
<czajkowski> ok so for the remainder of the meeting we're going to look at the bp and add some of the action items to it
<czajkowski> and review some of the items that came up
<czajkowski> so twinnings idea came from popey suggestion
<czajkowski> and I think it went down well at UDS
<czajkowski> the idea being that an Approved loco would be twinned with an unapproved loco and help them in how to get started
<czajkowski> and give them ideas
<czajkowski> so we needed to come up with teams
<czajkowski> which I think we more or less have done so ?
<czajkowski> Ubuntu UK
<czajkowski> Ubuntu France
<itnet7> Ubuntu Florida
<czajkowski> aye
<czajkowski> Ubuntu Italy
<czajkowski> leogg: what team did you suggest?
<leogg> czajkowski, Ubuntu Nicaragua with Ubuntu Costa Rica
<AlanBell> Ubuntu UK is up for it (no idea who to twin with)
<AlanBell> bug 890843 has been reported
<czajkowski> ok so that's 5
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890843 in Ubuntu IRC Bots "#vote doesn't work without a subject" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890843
<czajkowski> did we habe a 6th in mind ?
<czajkowski> is there an approved team we think that has the time to help on this ?
<czajkowski> or should we stick with 5 for this cycle and see how it works out
<itnet7> I think we should stick with 5
<czajkowski> ok
<itnet7> just my opinion though
<leogg> itnet7++
<czajkowski> so we're agreed on thos teams and we need to contact their team contacts which I think we have done bar Italy to make sure they are up for it
<czajkowski> and then create the bugs so we can track this during the cycle
<itnet7> Yup
<czajkowski> I really think this could work and then expand for furture cycles
 * AlanBell wonders if itnet7++ makes itnet8
<itnet7> ;-) AlanBell !
<czajkowski> itnet7: do you have a team in mind for the Florida loco ?
<leogg> AlanBell, ;)
<itnet7> czajkowski: I was doing a bit of research, but haven't really decided
<itnet7> I would like to try and pick a newer team
<czajkowski> itnet7: ok, we'll create the bugs this week at least for those teams that are menotoring and then add the unapproved teams to it
<czajkowski> itnet7: ok
<czajkowski> need to find a team for Ubuntu UK also
<czajkowski> #topic LTP renaming the main team page for teams
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LTP renaming the main team page for teams
<czajkowski> #link http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/
<czajkowski> this topic has been bouncing around for some time
 * AlanBell wants to replace it with a second level of maps
<czajkowski> if you land here on this page  looking for a team, it's hard to find the team you are looking for as they all have their own way of naming themselves
<czajkowski> which is fine
<czajkowski> what was proposed and agreed at UDS was the *display name* on this page alone would be changed by the developers
<czajkowski> so it would read Team name loco
<czajkowski> making it easier to find your team name if you are looking for infomation on one
<czajkowski> so I think we should do a joint blog post with the LTP developers and explain in more detail the benfit of doing so
<czajkowski> and to make it clear that nothing else is changing on the team name
<itnet7> Sounds good to me
<czajkowski> just the display name on the one page
<czajkowski> itnet7: can you take an action item to work with the dev team to start that this week please
<itnet7> Sure
<czajkowski> #action itnet7  work with the dev team to start that this week please
<meetingology> ACTION: itnet7  work with the dev team to start that this week please
<czajkowski> #action itnet7  work with the dev team to start a blog post re team name display on loco.ubuntu.com/teams
<meetingology> ACTION: itnet7  work with the dev team to start a blog post re team name display on loco.ubuntu.com/teams
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> thanks
<itnet7> I will add that to the blueprint after work today
<czajkowski> #topic Larger teams to follow the example led by USA and follow state/provence break down
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Larger teams to follow the example led by USA and follow state/provence break down
<czajkowski> This was discussed again at UDS and the thought behind it was that counteries which are rather large such as Australia, Canada and possibly Brazil who have already done this should follow the example of USA
<czajkowski> one main team and sub teams can be created depending on the level of activity in an provence/state like USA
<czajkowski> It would benefit if some areas are very active so cd allocation would go to one state if they were approved rather that one country
<czajkowski> in the future as teams grow it would be harder to then do this
<czajkowski> so planning for team growth now for 2+ years and being pro active rather than being re active would make more sense
<czajkowski> huats: itnet7 leogg any comments?
<huats> I agree
<itnet7> I agree that it would be a good idea, but I think you've pretty much covered the whys
<leogg> me too, it makes perfectly sense to me
<czajkowski> ok so we need to again explain this carefuly and clearly to teams so they don't get upset or worry. the reasons for this and the benefits for doing so
<czajkowski> huats: leogg care to take an action item to draft this blog post please ?
<leogg> sure
<czajkowski> leogg: thanks
<czajkowski> #action legg to draf blog post on larger teams being broken down into smaller teams like USA
<meetingology> ACTION: legg to draf blog post on larger teams being broken down into smaller teams like USA
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> #topic loco teams reappoval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: loco teams reappoval
<czajkowski> status update on this, huats created the teams for re approval for this cycle
<czajkowski> already we have teams applying which is great to see!
<itnet7> +1
<czajkowski> and we'll keep working on that this cycle
<czajkowski> we only have 9 for re approval, but hopefully with mentoring and twining of teams we can see more approvals coming up through the ranks in the near future.
<czajkowski> anyone have anything else to comment on ?
<itnet7> I don't really have any
<czajkowski> nope ok
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 15 20:33:21 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-15-20.01.moin.txt
<czajkowski> thanks for coming folks I know some of ye are at work
<itnet7> Thanks czajkowski for running the meeting!
<leogg> thanks czajkowski
<AlanBell> thanks all, and thanks for finding that bug czajkowski :)
<czajkowski> np
<czajkowski> AlanBell: me and the bot are going to have to work togehter :)
<AlanBell> I am going to schedule a meetingology sprint
<AlanBell> please file bugs at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots/+filebug and tag them meetingology
<AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots/+bugs?field.tag=meetingology any more to add?
<popey> AlanBell: like that idea!
<czajkowski> AlanBell: you rock!
<bonepyaesone> czajkowski: AlanBell itnet7 leogg  You all rock! :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-16
 * eggonlea faints
 * slangasek waves
<ev> hiya
<cjwatson> hi
<bdmurray> hi
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 16 16:03:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> ev cjwatson barry slangasek doko jhunt stgraber bdmurray
<ev> eep
<ev> can we circle back?
<ev> still frantically typing
<slangasek> k
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> Switched over to the new cdimage master machine.  The part of image builds that it does seems about two or three times as fast as before.
<cjwatson> Drafted other-p-plusonemaint-priorities.
<cjwatson> More poking at exposing a decent Germinate API for Launchpad to use.  I'm making progress but only slowly.
<cjwatson> Finished OCaml transition.  Mostly finished Haskell transition.  Much of the way through http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/perl5.14.html.  Other odds and ends of that kind.  700 uploads this week!
<cjwatson> Caught up on some merges.
<cjwatson> Nibbled around the edges of multiarch cross-building a bit more.  I've started trying to attack the odd cross-architecture gzip mismatch bug ...
<cjwatson> ..
<barry> python-dbus porting to python 3.  many interesting decisions along the way: <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~barry/python-dbus/py3/view/head:/PY3PORT.rst>.  status: compiles, test suite runs without crashing (yay!), but does not fully pass.  todo: make the test suite pass <wink>.  once that's done, test with real-world application, upload to ppa, email to mlist, blog.  done.
<slangasek> followed through on some multiarching of libraries that was uploaded to Debian
<slangasek> reviewing blueprints
<slangasek> reviewing resumes for open positions
<slangasek> done
<slangasek> doko_: you're up
<slangasek> jhunt_: why don't you go ahead
<jhunt_> Blueprint work. Some significant Upstart Cookbook updates:
<jhunt_> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#how-to-establish-fork-count,
<jhunt_> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#implications-of-misspecifying-expect,
<jhunt_> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#recovery-on-misspecification-of-expect.
<jhunt_> fix for bug 771372. Review of code for setuid/setgid stanzas in Upstart.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771372 in procps (Ubuntu Precise) "procps runs too early in the boot process" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771372
<jhunt_> Discussions with Patrick in QA re automated Upstart testing. Upstart job
<jhunt_> logging rework still ongoing. Coding nominally complete - currently
<jhunt_> debugging a failing test and working on documenting how to logically
<jhunt_> establish the "optimal" start on condition for an Upstart job (to be
<jhunt_> used for
<jhunt_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-p-upstart-convert-main-initd-to-jobs).
<jhunt_> Patch for bug 829980 seems to be working for users, so will upstream and
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 829980 in upstart (Ubuntu) "upstart-udev-bridge eats 100% cpu calling dbus_message_iter_append_basic()" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829980
<jhunt_> re-merge into official package this week (oneiric and precise).
<jhunt_> â
<stgraber> - Testing tracker
<stgraber>  - http://91.189.93.73 is usually up to date with what's in the branch
<stgraber>  - Front page (list of builds) is done
<stgraber>  - Spent half a day working on SQL optimization, got the worst page load in less than a second now (instead of 5)
<stgraber>  - Initial work on the testcase view, should be done today
<stgraber>  - Some work on the user/admin ACLs
<stgraber> - Finished drafting all my blueprints
<stgraber> - Worked on bug 823366, got a test setup and have a patch to make ifenslave work with our event driven boot (tested on 802.3ad only)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 823366 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu) "bond_primary is ignored in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/823366
<stgraber> - Some bugfixes in Arkose, still need to run the tests and then push the new version in Precise and SRU some of the fixes to Oneiric
<stgraber> - Got upstart:i386 to install on an amd64 system with a patched apt (ppa:stgraber/experimental has the needed packages)
<stgraber> - Some LXC upstream and packaging work with Serge, all of that should be uploaded to Precise soonish
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Try to get the new ISO tracker feature-equivalent to the old one by the end of the week
<stgraber>  - Look at the new ifupdown in Debian (beta2), isolate the fix for bug 876829 and SRU to Oneiric
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>  - Still need to get my iSCSI test setup online again and then look at the merge
<stgraber> (done)
<bdmurray> I was out on the 10th and 11th
<bdmurray> tested and committed script to help manage rls-p-tracking bug tasks
<bdmurray> setup up precise bug fixing report
<bdmurray> wrote mailing list parser to determine where no package bug reports end up going and running a report for 2011
<bdmurray> review of cproffit's bug workflow diagram for loco team members (bug reporters)
<bdmurray> modification to bug bot commenting on no package bug reports routine
<bdmurray> set up new canonistack image for the ultimate debian database
<bdmurray> ubiquity bug triage (hardware errors and lack of free space)
<bdmurray> .. done ..
<slangasek> ev?
<ev>  - Got a local retracer set up after merging in pitti's fixes.
<ev>  - Researched RabbitMQ for coordinating retracing crash reports.
<ev>  - Long call with Robert Collins on the crash database work.
<ev>    - Robert is happy to help and provide guidance.
<ev>    - Plan is to use oops-repository (Cassandra) as the database layer and API
<ev>      for posting (with reply for more detail required), posting core dumps,
<ev>      getting the full data out (privileged), and update an existing crash
<ev>      (partially privileged).
<ev>    - Also agreed to use the oops-repository dictionary format for crashes.
<ev>    - This will make integrating with Launchpad's longer term plans of this as
<ev>      a service for all projects an easier challenge. This may be implemented
<ev>      as one big Cassandra cluster in a multi-tenant fashion, or on a
<ev>      per-project basis, feeding to an API.
<ev>    - Need to get something just sending crash signatures (or a likeness)
<ev>      sharpish to test the scalability.
<ev>    - Will use RabbitMQ for work queues, while still posting to a Cassandra
<ev>      ColumnFamily to have a back up queue in case Rabbit falls over.
<ev>    - Agreed to look at the existing long list of hardware databases created by
<ev>      Canonical rather than creating yet another one.
<ev>    - Came up with some plans for fractional deployment for the client.
<ev>    - And lots, lots more :)
<ev>  - Started looking into txstatsd and Graphite, per Robert's advice to measure
<ev>    everything :)
<ev>  - Proposed a branch to disable removing core files in the Launchpad retracer,
<ev>    so that we have some profiling data to work with.  Need to follow up to
<ev>    Martin's comments.
<ev>  - Ported the crash reporter to C. \o/ Still need to wire up to
<ev>    NetworkManager.
<ev>  - Wrote a C parser for the Apport (/RFC822) report format.
<ev>  - Call with David Pitkin about his plans for improving the 3rd party
<ev>    application development platform.
<ev>  - Helped Matthew understand what packages are responsible for writing to the
<ev>    screen during the boot and shutdown process in support of his work item for
<ev>    session consistency (bug 882296).
<ev>  - Background research into moving from JSON to BSON. Some serious wins to be
<ev>    had.
<ev>  - Moved from JSON to BSON using MongoDB's C BSON library for transmitting
<ev>    crash data to the server.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 882296 in gnome-session (Ubuntu) "No complete specification for how Ubuntu sessions are supposed to work" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882296
<ev>  - Chat with Rick about helping the DX team get over the testing hump.
<ev> (done, I think)
<slangasek> BSON, eh?
<slangasek> how is that different from JSON?
<ev> it's binary
<ev> therefore it's better
<slangasek> ah
 * slangasek grins
<slangasek> doko_: around at all?
<ev> (http://www.mongodb.org/display/DOCS/BSON)
<barry> ev: did you see jam's performance analysis on canonical-tech?
<ev> of BSON? I believe that's the thread I read on there about it
<ev> the one where Robert unpacked the worked involved to send JSON vs BSON over the wire
<barry> ev: i really only skimmed the message ;)
<ev> barry: :) I was thinking of a different thread, but I've seen this one too :)
<ev> I don't think it's possible to do anything but skim that thread. It put me in a coma at UDS.
<barry> :-D
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugz
<slangasek> bdmurray: what's new and buggy?
 * slangasek hmms and prods the bot (or his connection)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugz
<bdmurray> mterry brought up bug 459730 this week which cjwatson commented on at one point in time
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459730 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "rsyslog doesn't create /dev/xconsole " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459730
 * slangasek tentatively taps his connection
<cjwatson> If mterry brought it up, he can reply to my review comment :-)
<slangasek> technically it's not a device at all but a pipe... does it belong somewhere other than /dev?
<slangasek> I don't think this is a high priority bug though
<cjwatson> quite possibly; if it were somewhere other than /dev then we wouldn't have to have the debate about whether it belonged in udev.  /run would work now, perhaps
<cjwatson> (noted that in the bug)
<slangasek> not sure how many other packages regard xconsole as a "standard" interface, is the only thing that gives me pause
<jhunt_> slangasek: one day, when we have opengrok... :)
<slangasek> bdmurray: what else you got in the bug jar? :)
<bdmurray> okay then, cjwatson do you have a thought on where the _ in bug 861048 is coming from?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 861048 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "have really quick '_' on boot before first purple screen" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/861048
<ev> jhunt_: what the RT for the opengrok stuff?
<jhunt_> ev: jamespage has done some packaging work. We need to assess infrastructure requirements. I'm currently working on some changes to the OpenGrok core to improve indexing.
<cjwatson> bdmurray: I haven't had a chance to see if I can reproduce that; grub2 is supposed to turn off the cursor and then IIRC it sets a magic bit in the boot protocol to tell the kernel not to turn it on
<ev> jhunt_: don't forget about the Canonicloud
<ev> you can always prototype there
<jhunt_> ev: we're using it :)
<ev> brilliant
<cjwatson> so by design it works; it's possible that grub isn't actually setting that magic bit or that the kernel isn't honouring it, and those are the two likely points of failure
<ev> let me know if you get something I can set up an ssh tunnel to
<cjwatson> I know Matthew Garrett wrote a kernel patch to do that but right now I don't recall whether it landed
<slangasek> cjwatson: 861048 is before the first purple screen though, so before grub has rendered
<cjwatson> oh, *before* grub?
<slangasek> cjwatson: does that mean it's BIOS output that we can't control?
<cjwatson> in that case the BIOS sets it and we can't do anything about it
<cjwatson> grub turns it off as pretty much the very first thing it does
<slangasek> ok - thought so, but wanted your professional opinion
<cjwatson> sorry, hadn't read the up-to-date comments
<cjwatson> I'll double-check in the code
<bdmurray> I may have also seen an _ when resuming from hibernate - that would be a bug though correct?
<cjwatson> (because I might be misremembering)
<cjwatson> resuming from hibernate starts out from the BIOS too
<cjwatson> however it's possible that we aren't turning it off as quickly there; if so that would be a bug
<cjwatson> we may not be able to fix it completely but should do what we can
<bdmurray> A video would help I'd imagine?
<cjwatson> Hmm.  I may be misremembering about grub.  It does turn off the cursor, but not desperately early
<cjwatson> It's possible we can improve things there
<cjwatson> I've updated the bug
<bdmurray> Additionally there was a session where we discussed text free boot and I'd tested switching to a tty1 and suspending and resuming.  Should I report a bug about that?
<cjwatson> yes, I don't remember the exact behaviour but the behaviour we discovered in that session was a bug :;-)
<cjwatson> :-)
<bdmurray> okay, that answers that then
<bdmurray> stgraber you'd talked about taking a pass through casper bugs before we went to UDS.  Do you still plan on doing that? there are a few with patches etc...
<stgraber> bdmurray: yes, I actually have some local changes on casper (getting rid of gconf and converting to gsettings)
<bdmurray> that's all I've got then
<slangasek> cjwatson: related, you have a workitem on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-text-free-boot to "hunt down" a bug about grub not honouring EDID properly... bug 877278 is the right bugnum, I'm not sure if that means that workitem is done or if it just metamorphoses :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 877278 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Boot fails on T61, screen stays blank" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/877278
<slangasek> bdmurray: thanks
<cjwatson> let's metamorphose it into that bug then
<slangasek> cjwatson: and assign to you?
<cjwatson> yep
<slangasek> done
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Blueprints
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprints
<slangasek> Blueprints!  Drafting due Friday
<slangasek> from what I see we seem to be on track... just be sure to get them wrapped up by then
<slangasek> and when you're done drafting and ready for review, please be sure to mark as either 'pending approval' or 'review' so we know
<slangasek> any questions?
<ev> what time on friday? :)
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> before you leave the office is fine
<ev> cool
<slangasek> but I don't want everyone dumping them on me at 5pm pacific :)
<bdmurray> before ev leaves or I leave?
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> oh, should've said during the lightning round, but just to remind you that I'm out all next week and half of the week after... hence the deadline
<cjwatson> oh, I should book holiday before that then
<ev> attending a big data event at Millbank tonight - some Cassandra people there, probably MongoDB folks as well. Let me know if you have questions you want passed along.
<ev> oh and Hadoop
<slangasek> cool
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 16 16:53:05 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-16-16.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks guys :)
<ev> thanks!
<ogra_> ev, ask if they know about calxeda and our involvement with them
<ev> okay
<ev> will do
<ogra_> hadoop is the #1 usecase
<ogra_> for that super armed server :)
<barry> thanks!
<jhunt_> thanks
<ev> :)
<stgraber> thanks!
<nuclearbob> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 16 18:05:33 2011 UTC.  The chair is nuclearbob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Previous items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous items
<nuclearbob> the only action item last week was discuss the minimum memory requirements
<nuclearbob> we've been discussing that at the sprint this week, but we haven't reached a conclusion
<nuclearbob> moving on
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Efforts/Testing
<nuclearbob> looks like I went too fast, rolling back
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<nuclearbob> we have a url for the minimum memory requirements provided by the dev team that we'll be testing against
<nuclearbob> https://help.ubuntu.com/11.10/installation-guide/i386/minimum-hardware-reqts.html
<gema> basically, we will aim at validating whatever the minimum requirements are
<gema> so that we are sure thing work in low memory conditions
<gema> but we don't have a date yet as to when we will be able to start such testing
<gema> ..
<nuclearbob> all right
<nuclearbob> any other previous actions before we move on?
<nuclearbob> all right
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Efforts/Testing
<nuclearbob> as we're defining the preferred test case format, we'll make sure to get that published so the community can submit test cases, but we don't have the format defined yet
<nuclearbob> anybody else?
<nuclearbob> moving on
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Automated/Systems Testing
<nuclearbob> we're setting up a new lab this week for automated testing
<nuclearbob> once it's running we'll be pushing test results to the public jenkins instance
<nuclearbob> we'll have more of that available after it's setup
<nuclearbob> anything else?
<nuclearbob> all right
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status (hggdh, Ursinha, pedro_, bdmurray)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status (hggdh, Ursinha, pedro_, bdmurray)
<nuclearbob> any bug status updates this week?
<bdmurray> I've nothing special to share today just one recommendation
<bdmurray> With the recent release of 11.10 it'd be helpful if people were to go through and review bugs that've reported and ensure they are still relevant
<bdmurray> For further details see http://www.murraytwins.com/blog/?p=110
<nuclearbob> sounds good
<nuclearbob> anything else from anybody?
<nuclearbob> all right
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<gema> we are going to be improving the ubuntu QA wiki soon
<gema> there has been a lot of improvements within QA and we are changing the way we do testing so we are going to try to reflect that on the wiki
<gema> please, feel free to add/remove things as you see fit, we are going to try to get rid of obsolete info and put in the relevant information of what we are working on at the moment
<gema> basically, all the things we spoke about at UDS need to be reflected there
<gema> bdmurray: we'll need to talk about how to split the pure bug-centric info from the QA info
<gema> so that everything flows nicely
<gema> ..
<nuclearbob> all right
<nuclearbob> anyone want to chair next week?
<gema> I can do
<nuclearbob> super
<nuclearbob> [ACTION] gema to chair next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: gema to chair next meeting
<nuclearbob> thanks everybody
<nuclearbob> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 16 18:36:09 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-16-18.05.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-17
<amithkk> No actibity?
<ppisati> ogra_: you mentioned some options for squashfs, right?
<ogra_> ppisati, come over to a proper channel :)
<ogra_> *fnop*
<ppisati> o/
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 15:00:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<NCommander> Bah, 3 seconds late :-(
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20111117
<NCommander> so who's here?
 * janimo waves
 * mrjazzcat is here
 * ogra_ pretends to
 * ahs3 may or may not be here
<ogra_> cooloney, !
<ogra_> good to see you
 * rsalveti waves
<cooloney> ogra_: thx, man.
 * davidm waves
 * cooloney waves 
<NCommander> morning davidm cooloney rsalveti mrjazzcat janimo and ahs3
 * GrueMaster is propped up in a corner with a large mug of coffee.
 * cmagina waves
 * NCommander is wondering if he'll ever see the sun again
<NCommander> [topic] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<NCommander> so I grouped all the specs into two topic specs; one for ARM server, and a general one
<NCommander> But only one is showing up, anyone know who needs to be prodded?
<janimo> I have no WIs there apparently
<davidm> NCommander, talk with skate
<skaet> NCommander,  they need the blueprints accurate with WI's before they show up.
<janimo> but both infinity and Adam Conrad do
<NCommander> skaet: they're there :-/
<skaet> NCommander - all they syntax correct?
<ogra_> NCommander, action me with it
 * davidm thinks his fingers are still not working correctly
<janimo> I do not exclude the pssibility of getting the syntax of the WI entries wrong again
<ogra_> i'll take care of it with pitti on monday if all specs are 100% there
<NCommander> [action] ogra to smack status.u.c with skaet
<meetingology> ACTION: ogra to smack status.u.c with skaet
<ogra_> *everyone* spec deadline is tomorrow !!!!
<ogra_> make sure to have all your WIs in
<ogra_> and to have david approve them !!!
<NCommander> if anyone needs help drafting specs, poke me
<davidm> Anyone needs a spec approved poke me today in the next 4 hours
<ogra_> even if unfinished ?
<ogra_> well i have all my WIs but not the text complete yet
<NCommander> I find the LP depednency tree really becomes useless after a LOT ofspecsareadded
<NCommander> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-arm-server
<NCommander> (I can't turn up the zoom enough to even read the names)
<janimo> NCommander, stop reading it on your cellphone :P
<ogra_> heh
<NCommander> janimo: I can't even read it on my external monitor
<NCommander> anyway, anything else on specs/status?
<ogra_> get a projector !
 * NCommander should add a spec 'if-you-can-read-this-you-dont-need-glasses'
<ogra_> move ?
<janimo> mv
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<NCommander> Nothing to report
<NCommander> well, we did manage to build server images
<ogra_> last cycle you mean
<ogra_> :)
<NCommander> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/daily-preinstalled/current/
<ahs3> have they built recently?
<NCommander> No,this cycle
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> well, indeed, why shouldnt they build
<ogra_> how about alternate, didnt we want to do some testing with that =
<ogra_> ?
<ogra_> or did we decide that netinst suffices ?
<GrueMaster> We?  As it "Build more stuff for GrueMaster to test"?  Ok
<NCommander> I know janimo wanted some live images, but I don't think we've tried to build alternates
<GrueMaster> s/it/in
 * NCommander thinks we need to clone GrueMaster 
<ogra_> NCommander, only for servre indeed ... no deskto alternates :)
<janimo> NCommander, btw I got a live img from ogra yesterday, needs fixing but a good first step
<ogra_> but we dont need to
<GrueMaster> Bad idea.  I refuse to share my coffee mug.
<ogra_> janimo, i'll bring that up in the image topic
<NCommander> GrueMaster: we can clone the mug too. We have the technology
<ogra_> GrueMaster, two straws, come on
<ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
<GrueMaster> I did more testing on the live image.  Having a hard time getting it to be recognized on one large vfat partition by the boot firmware.
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report except for the usual SRU kernels
<ppisati> i'm preparing the first P omap4 kernle
<ppisati> *kernel
<cooloney> oh, i am working on an internal ARM project. shall i talk here?
<GrueMaster> Excellent.
<ppisati> still the same code as in O/omap4 but we a big config review/change
<cooloney> ppisati: cool
<ppisati> omap4 should be much close to master now
<janimo> new ac100 kernel uploaded to precise,  SRU with speaker fix uploaded to oneiric
<ppisati> *closer
<janimo> both 2.6.38 based still
<GrueMaster> ppisati: I also need to ping you later this morning about kernel SRU security failures I am seeing.
<ppisati> janimo: noone is working on 3.x kernels?
<ppisati> GrueMaster: impossible! our kernels are perfect! :)
<janimo> ppisati, upstream does, but does not consider it stable enough yet
<janimo> we'll get there for 12.04 though
<ppisati> janimo: i see
<ogra_> janimo, heh, high hopes
<janimo> upstream is based on chromeos tree which is 3.0 only
<janimo> not sure if we can make 3.2 this cycle, ut at least 3.0
 * ppisati would like to work on that (since i finally got the cable and the stuff to hack a serial console in(
<janimo> ppisati, #ac100 on freenode :)
<NCommander> ppisati: serial console on the ac100?
<ogra_> guys dont forget ac100 is a spare time project this cycle
<janimo> right
<ppisati> janimo: i know, but i've to finish some other stuff first... unfortunately... :(
<ogra_> we cant put much work time in
<ppisati> NCommander: yep
<ppisati> NCommander: https://picasaweb.google.com/107597647635512051759/AC100SerialPortModification?gsessionid=ot7C1HbZg5CPWzwsGXXpZw#
<ppisati> but didn't solder it yet (and my gfriend will be here this weekend too... so no spare time...)
<NCommander> I never realized how tiny the ac100 main board is
<NCommander> anyway, moving on
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra_> ppisati, if you fry your board or something, ping me, i got a free ac100 with broken kbd here
<NCommander> FTBFS list is shockingly happy for week 3(?) of archive open
<ogra_> thats good for parts :)
 * ppisati knocks wood...
<janimo> tended to a few ftbfs packages
<janimo> about 4 of them in main
<ogra_> what about chromium ... did anyone take a look at that ?
<janimo> not me, only firefox
<ogra_> i know there are linaro people looking into it too and micahg is desparate to get help
<ogra_> but there seems to be no conversation between the two
<ogra_> we should help to get that going
<janimo> maybe he should hang out on #linaro?
<janimo> chromium is a pita because its build system is very unlike others and needs quite a learning curve
<ogra_> probably
<ogra_> yeah, agreed
<NCommander> anything else?
<ogra_> mv
<infinity> I haven't tested on armel yet, but perl seems sad on armhf/smp.
<ogra_> infinity, we have an hf topic now
<ogra_> keep that for it :)
<infinity> Yes, but this isn't hf-specific, I'm sure. :P
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
<infinity> But okay.
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> so where do we stand ?
<infinity> Perl's (still) grinding through its testsuite on my mx53, but seems happier than the panda that's been stalled on one test for ~20 hours.
<ogra_> and once thats done we will have autobiuilds magically ?
<infinity> Python rdeps still need to shake out, and I have a couple of things to rebuild in Essential to move their linker ref, and then the chroot can go to the librariar.
<infinity> librarian too.
<ogra_> sounds like we're nearly there \o/
<infinity> I'd told people "Tuesday" before, but it seems I underestimated how slow my machines are (or, how nasty glib2.0 and perl are on slow hardware anyway)
<ogra_> cant you abuse some buildds in the DC ?
<GrueMaster> infinity: You mentioned perl may have issues on armel.  Give me a testcase and I can start it spinning here.
<infinity> ogra_: I can't parallelise single builds terribly well.
<ogra_> on hf/smp
<ogra_> infinity, bah, learn it :P
<ogra_> yeah, understood :)
<infinity> ogra_: hf/smp is confirmed, I'm betting sf/smp will have the same problem.
<ogra_> ah
 * ogra_ didnt catch that
<infinity> GrueMaster: debootstrap --variant=buildd precise, build perl 5.14.2 on a panda.  See if testsuite hangs indefinitely on dist/Thread-Semaphore/t/01_basic
<GrueMaster> Will add it to jenkins for logging.
<rsalveti> janimo: riku is trying to fix the ftbfs at chromium, to be able to cross build it
<ogra_> rsalveti, yeah, thats what i meant
<janimo> rsajdok, that is great
<janimo> rsalveti, :)
<ogra_> rsalveti, do you knwo if he already talked to micah?
<ogra_> (i asked him to=
<rsalveti> ogra_: not sure yet, need to ping him
<ogra_> (if i cant tab rikus nick i'm always lost)
<ogra_> (else i would have mentioned him above :) )
<rsalveti> ogra_: suihkulokki :-)
<infinity> Haha.
<rsalveti> trivial
<ogra_> yeah, indeed, i'm such a whiner :P
<ogra_> :)
<infinity> We could all name ourselves after beagle buildds.
<infinity> Or babbage, rather.
<ogra_> lol
<ogra_> anoncaeaeaeae
<cooloney> i prefer to panda then, heh
 * GrueMaster becomes gruecaeaeaeaeae
<ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> preinstalled look fine
<ogra_> live not so much :(
<ogra_> i managed to build one manually yesterday but capser is unhappy
<ogra_> janimo is still researching ... we found some missing kernel options though
<ogra_> or rather differences in squashfs options ... but that doesnt necessarily mean thay cause the issue
<GrueMaster> I took the live image and mangled it into one large vfat partition, but the panda wasn't happy (refused to find MLO).  Will retry later today.
<ogra_> so some more research is needed
<ppisati> i can hand you a new test kernel in a couple of hours
<ogra_> GrueMaster, the ext4 should actually be fine
<NCommander> probably sometime bit rotted badly since lucid
<ogra_> casper has code for handling that, we checked
<GrueMaster> Actually, both partitions are vfat.
<ogra_> NCommander, well, we are missing compression support for squashfs in the kernel
<ogra_> so that should be the first thing we eleminate
<janimo> ppisati, even if the kernel is not the issue we should still have omep4 kernel aligned with ubuntu sauce
<janimo> if that is not already I case of course
<ppisati> agreed
<janimo> that's a WI from UDS anyway so no extra work :)
<GrueMaster> Yes.  Alignment would be good.  Kernel SRU tests currently fail because of being out of alignment.
<ppisati> GrueMaster: i can beleive it
<ppisati> omap4 and master were hundreds of options away
<ogra_> ugh
 * NCommander smacks head on desk
<ppisati> since the inception of omap4 we always had a config that was closer to vanilla than to ubuntu
<GrueMaster> Actually, it dates back earlier than that.  I have found discrepancies on Dove and babbage before.
<ogra_> i remember at least two UDSes where lool and i approached the kernel team about that
<ogra_> happy it finally happens :)
<ppisati> you didn't bring enough booze with out then :)
<ogra_> lol
<ppisati> s/out/you/
<ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> wow
<ogra_> twice as many images this time :P
<ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
<ogra_> :P
 * NCommander beats ogra_ 
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<GrueMaster> Hey, that's me.
<infinity> Sure is!
<ogra_> smells like
<GrueMaster> Steady work on getting kernel-SRU test automation running in Jenkins.
<janimo> GrueMaster, is there a public url for this jenkins instance?
<GrueMaster> So far, reimaging of either Oneiric or Precise works very well.  Still some tweaks to make, but the process takes ~15-20 minutes.
<GrueMaster> I will push jenkins results to jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com in the near future.
<GrueMaster> I have also been working with the security team to get the qa-regression-testsuite running properly on arm and make it easier to automate.
<lool> GrueMaster: the OMAP ROM will insist that your partition type matches your FS type; that is, if it's FAT32, you need partition type 0xc; I don't remember offhand the FAT16 type, but you get the idea
<lool> you also want to make sure you have the bootable flag set on your FAT partition
<GrueMaster> Still need to figure out a way to auto-install Maverick and Natty on omap4 for SRU testing, but a few ideas are being explored.
<GrueMaster> lool: That may be it.  I didn't spend much time on it.  Will check after meetings.  thks.
<GrueMaster> One of many tasks for today.
<NCommander> anything else?
<ogra_> mv :)
<GrueMaster> Automating netinstall is the easiest.  Next will be to automate the server preinstalled images.
<NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
 * rsalveti waves
<rsalveti> the milestone we're closing this week: https://launchpad.net/linaro-dev-platform/+milestone/11.11
<rsalveti> a few important things we did
<rsalveti> u-boot-linaro spl usb booting for panda is finally done by jcrigby
<rsalveti> GrueMaster this will work the same way as omap4boot
<rsalveti> but using the official u-boot for it
<GrueMaster> Excellent.
<rsalveti> proper instructions and etc will be released next week, once we finish the 11.11 release
<NCommander> rsalveti: done?
<rsalveti> riku fixed a bunch of packages for multi-arch enablement, but still needs to send the changes to ubuntu
<rsalveti> he was finally able to cross build firefox with multi-arch
<ogra_> smagoun will be happy to hear that
<rsalveti> he's now looking into chromium to see if we'll be able to also cross build it
<rsalveti> next month we're planning to work pushing most of the changes, as for now it was more a experiment
<infinity> Being able to built it at all would be a start. ;)
<infinity> s/built/build/
<rsalveti> yup
<ogra_> ++
<rsalveti> other than that we're also enabling the precise images now
<rsalveti> and hope to have them also enabled at lava soon
<ogra_> intrestingly there are armel debs at google somewheer
<ogra_> of v14 or even 15
<janimo> rsalveti, is there a list of MA enabled packages being worked on?
<infinity> Yeah, jbailey builds chrome for arm.
<rsalveti> and something I'd like to talk with you guys later is how to use lava to help testing the ubuntu images
<infinity> Or chromium.  Or both.  I always forget.
<ogra_> ah
<infinity> rsalveti: You know Jeff?  Could be worth poking him.
<janimo> well those may be native builds no?
<rsalveti> janimo: sure, 1 sec
<GrueMaster> rsalveti: It would be nice if your teams could figure out a way to get u-boot into automated testing.
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: that's in progress
<infinity> janimo: I'm sure they're native, but we can't build native right now either. :P
<rsalveti> a lot of discussions with plars about it
<rsalveti> janimo: https://launchpad.net/~linaro-maintainers/+archive/staging-overlay
<janimo> infinity, well we sometimes can :)
<rsalveti> janimo: mostly the ones changed by riku
<rsalveti> janimo: also a few others at our overlay ppa
<janimo> rsalveti, these imply upstream pushing I suppose
<rsalveti> janimo: yup, work for our next cycle
<cooloney> rsalveti: is there any final release from linaro based on 3.1 kernel? i think every month you guys will release once
<janimo> Libo would be a great candidate
<cooloney> rsalveti: or will move to 3.2 sometime
<rsalveti> cooloney: yes, linux-linaro 3.1 for 11.11 was already released
<ogra_> cooloney, there are no final releases from linaro :P
<rsalveti> for now we're still on 3.1
<ogra_> its all rolling
<rsalveti> but we should be using tip soon
<cooloney> got it, thanks
 * cooloney thinks 11.11 is good name for release
<rsalveti> and marcin also pushed a few fixes for the cross toolchain packages
<rsalveti> that's all from my side
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
 * cooloney asks what's AOB for?
<infinity> All Other Business?
<infinity> Or Any.
<ogra_> any other bubblingupstuff
<davidm> yep
<plars> GrueMaster: we're looking at building some devices that would make it easier for us to do that
<infinity> But a bit of a joke with 2 minutes to go. ;)
<cooloney> infinity: got it.
<GrueMaster> plars: cool.
<plars> GrueMaster: but I thought you already had this solved for your purposes with usbboot on panda?
<GrueMaster> plars: I was mainly thinking of beaglexm.  Still have network issues there.
<NCommander> we're overtime, so if there's anything urgent, please say it now quickly, else I'll close the meeting
<GrueMaster> And I only have 1 system.
<ogra_> NCommander, close
<NCommander> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 16:00:42 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-15.00.moin.txt
<NCommander> cya
<amithkk> [topic] wait, unvoice'd users can do this?
<amithkk> #lol
<amithkk> ?
<beuno> o/
<pleia2> o/
<czajkowski> o/
<dholbach> o/
<dholbach> o//
<jono> hey all
<cjohnston> hi
<Gwaihir> hello!
<akgraner> o/
<jono> hey sabdfl
<beuno> ok, lets get this party started
<beuno> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 17:04:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is beuno. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<beuno> there's no proposed topics on the wiki
<YokoZar> I have something to report
<dholbach> and I wanted to share a quick reminder
<czajkowski> cool
<beuno> YokoZar, go for it
<YokoZar> Right, at UDS I was tasked with investigating the voting system
<YokoZar> Briefly, 1) We need to pick an actual algorithm to use, and 2) We need a tie-breaking procedure
<sabdfl> i thought (1) was condorcet
<sabdfl> and (2) was one of the CIVS options
<YokoZar> For 1), the Shulze method (first in the list on CIVS) is the clear answer: it's what Debian and Wikimedia use, amid others, and it's a sound algorithm.  You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_Method
<YokoZar> sabdfl: there are multiple condorcet methods (indeed CIVS lists 4 of them)
<sabdfl> ah, right, tiebreaking when even Condorcet-Shultze ties
<YokoZar> Right, which is indeed what happened between 2nd and 3rd place in the IRCC election
<YokoZar> As far as tie-breaking is concerned, that's actually not handled by CIVS.
<beuno> #topic voting algorithm for board elections and tie-breaking procedure
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: voting algorithm for board elections and tie-breaking procedure
<dholbach> Do we know how other projects deal with cases like this?
<czajkowski> YokoZar: so are you suggesting/recommending that going forth we use the Shulze method
<YokoZar> dholbach: I'm not sure what Debian's tie-breaking procedures are, if they even have them.  It really is a freak occurance
<YokoZar> czajkowski: Yes, I'm saying we make it official somewhere
<czajkowski> YokoZar: ok makes sense to be honest as I'
<czajkowski> m sure it gets asked the whole time
<dholbach> I'd suggest to document it on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
<dholbach> I have no objections about using it
<beuno> ey use this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloneproof_Schwartz_Sequential_Dropping
<YokoZar> beuno: it's the same
<beuno> (according to http://www.debian.org/vote/)
<YokoZar> beuno: (two names for same method)
<YokoZar> In fact that wikipedia page is a redirect ;)
<sabdfl> very simply, this is our discretion, and how we decide is up to us
<YokoZar> dholbach: I'll look into if Debian has a true tie resolution procedure
<sabdfl> i prefer consensus, but if we vote, there is a casting vote so we never get stuck
<YokoZar> sabdfl: Right, I was just going to suggest we resolve ties by just looking at your ballot and if you rank A > B and there is a tie between A and B, A now beats B
<sabdfl> remember, the mandate stems from us; we poll to get mutual buy-in on delegation, but it is in fact delegation
<sabdfl> who's ballot?
<sabdfl> i don't need or want to be the direct decider on those; we should discuss them, see if we have general agreement, and if not then just vote
<YokoZar> Ok so you would defer a true tie to the CC then
<sabdfl> yes; it's our delegation, we've polled the relevant group in the community, they've said they're equally happy with two candidates we shortlisted, we can choose
<dholbach> sabdfl's argument makes sense and it should be corner cases, I just think we should document it, so it's clear to everybody involved
<sabdfl> agreed
<YokoZar> That's fine by me.  Our other two options would be 1) Just using sabdfl's vote as a casting vote in the actual election, and 2) Doing something pseudorandom
<czajkowski> aye as dholbach said documentaion would be the key here so everyone knows and is on the same page
<sabdfl> note to ourselves, though, is that we should exercise real discretion in the shortlisting
<sabdfl> i do with TB and CC, and we should do the same in the delegation
<beuno> so we use Schwartz as an algorithm, and tie-breaks get discussed and decided upon by the CC, yes?
<sabdfl> nobody should be on the shortlist that does not have our full support
<sabdfl> otherwise we're not doing our job
<sabdfl> beuno, +1
<czajkowski> beuno: +1
<YokoZar> beuno: Yes, +1.  Though I think we should be consistent in calling it Shulze (that seems to be what Wikipedia has settled on, as well as the Elections-Methods mailing list)
<beuno> #action update wiki pages describing the algorithm and tie-breaking methods used
<meetingology> ACTION: update wiki pages describing the algorithm and tie-breaking methods used
<dholbach> +1, that works for me
<czajkowski> YokoZar: thanks for looking into this
<Gwaihir> +1 for me too, sounds fine
<akgraner> +1 from me as well
<beuno> ok, dholbach, you're up
<dholbach> This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team is aware of it.
<dholbach>  Thanks :-)
<dholbach> Ok, I just realised that we changed meeting dates, so I'll have to update the schedule.
<dholbach> I'll take that as an action and post it to the ubuntu-council-teams list.
<pleia2> thanks dholbach
<czajkowski> cheers
<akgraner> thanks dholbach
<Gwaihir> great dholbach
<beuno> #info This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC  meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team is aware o
 * beuno stares at meetingology 
<dholbach> ...f it. Thanks :-)
<sabdfl> dholbach, can we keep that schedule in the wiki, say, on CommunityCouncilAgenda?
<dholbach> I guess that was TMI
<dholbach> sabdfl, sure
<sabdfl> groovy, thanks
<Gwaihir> might also great to have it in the fridge calendar...
<pleia2> that might be tricky since it's *during* the CC meeting
<YokoZar> I suggest
<dholbach> and it's a recurring event
<czajkowski> i think on the agenda page should be fine
<YokoZar> that We start the meeting with it
<beuno> #action add the team catch-ups to CommunityCouncilAgenda
<meetingology> ACTION: add the team catch-ups to CommunityCouncilAgenda
<YokoZar> I mean as a matter of policy have other teams as guests first on the agenda so that they can leave when they done
<pleia2> YokoZar: good idea
<akgraner> YokoZar, +1
<Gwaihir> YokoZar, +1
 * YokoZar remembers an Ubuntu-California meeting that had some international 3AMers present who were made to wait through half an hour of nonsense
<dholbach> yes, sounds good to me
<pleia2> yeah, that wasn't good :(
<czajkowski> :)
<beuno> if memory serves, next up is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
<pleia2> yep
<pleia2> so I sent an email to the CC list giving us a heads up, but for the benefit of others, here's the related blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-designing-and-creating-ubuntu-experiences
<beuno> #topic https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
<pleia2> essentially the community council will be taking over most of jono's tasks here in guidance
<pleia2> that DesignTeam wiki is slowly coming together, they wrote most of it this morning during their preliminary meeting :)
<wendar> also https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-ux-participation
<pleia2> the team hasn't formally been announced, right now they're looking for some structure and guidance and after speaking with doctormo and wendar I offered that the CC would probably be in a good place to do this (since we're already committed to checking in with some other teams this cycle)
<pleia2> thanks for coming, wendar :)
<pleia2> anyone have any questions at this time?
<jono> I agree
<jono> I think the CC can offer some great guidance here
<beuno> pleia2, what would be the channel of communication?
<cjohnston> #ubuntu-design
<cjohnston> currently
<beuno> so the CC should hang out over there?
<pleia2> for actual guidance I'd suggest some CC folks hang out in #ubuntu-design, and we can welcome them to email the CC list at any time (any team can do this of course, but this can be a focus for us)
<pleia2> and maybe do a public check-in at one of our CC meetings per month, but this should all be discussed based on neds
<pleia2> needs
<dholbach> that sounds reasonable - do we have a point of contact there? or do we just "ping/email the team"?
<pleia2> currently I'd say it's doctormo and wendar
<jono> I think a public check in could be useful, make the team feel part of the CC meetings
<mhall119> the team for now, we haven't selected contacts yet
 * dholbach nods
<sabdfl> hmm
<pleia2> mhall119: ah, thanks :)
<jono> I think it could be useful to appoint a member of the design team to help coordinate with this
<jono> maybe Charline or someone
<sabdfl> it feels weird to me that the ubuntu design team doesn't include johnlea, mika, oren, calum, christian, mpt...
<sabdfl> this should all be one team
<wendar> sabdfl: they just haven't joined yet
<jono> sabdfl, absolutely
<wendar> charline is a member already
<wendar> and, yes, it is all one
<sabdfl> wendar, they are the founding members, from where i stand ;-)
<YokoZar> I like what I'm seeing so far
<sabdfl> i don't mean to offend, and i think the energy around better engagement is excellent
<sabdfl> but it's wrong to suggest that there was no engagement previously
<wendar> sabdfl: I mean they haven't joined the launchpad team yet, which was created yesterday
<sabdfl> and all is fixed because wendar and doctormo made a lp team ;-)
<dholbach> I think it's more about creating more opportunities
<wendar> would you like to hear more about the longer-term plans here?
<sabdfl> i asked today that design.canonical.com be moved to design.ubuntu.com, and we create accounts there for folk doing great work, regardless of affiliation
<mhall119> dholbach: that's correct
<dholbach> nice
<wendar> the CC feedback would be useful, but also don't want to take up too much of the meeting if this isn't the right time/place
<sabdfl> wendar, i'd like to hear that those longer term plans were agreed with the cats i listed
<wendar> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> groovy, then we're ok
<wendar> sabdfl: they're quite enthusiastic about participating
<sabdfl> let's get them all assembled in the team, let's get everyone bloggaging, let's do great work as always
<dholbach> :-)
<sabdfl> i also hope we'll have some new names on the team soon, for whom IRC and mailing lists are the normal channel, rather than a new channel
<sabdfl> sorry, new names on the canonical design team :-)
 * YokoZar this reminds me of the separation between "Ubuntu Desktop Team" and "Canonical Desktop Team" from some time ago
<wendar> pleia2: one thing we'd appreciate help with from the CC is in organizing
<czajkowski> wendar: in what way can we help there?
<wendar> particularly, perspectives on setting up our guidelines and culture
<wendar> so, any comments people have on our drafts on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
<wendar> would be welcome
<czajkowski> wendar: i'll be home later and online and happy to talk you throuigh some stuff if that would help
<czajkowski> or another time that is suitable
<wendar> czajkowski: thanks!
<pleia2> czajkowski: care to join us in #ubuntu-design?
<czajkowski> already there
<pleia2> oh good
<pleia2> :)
<czajkowski> wendar: i'll follow up after meeting with a time we can talk
<beuno> ok, so "The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design"?
<pleia2> +1
<czajkowski> +1
<akgraner> +1
<Gwaihir> +1
<sabdfl> +2 :-)
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<YokoZar> +1
<beuno> #agreed The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
<beuno> #action The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
<meetingology> ACTION: The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
<beuno> that's it for the known topics
<beuno> any unknown topics?  :)
<akgraner> LC results
<sabdfl> i think we're still discussing
<akgraner> ok
<akgraner> just 3 people expire from team on Saturday - so wanted to bring it up :-)
<sabdfl> right. hmm.
<dholbach> if everybody would have a look at the discussion again and follow up, that'd help
<sabdfl> other topics?
<akgraner> I don't have any more..
<czajkowski> nope.
<czajkowski> beuno: thanks for chairing
<beuno> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 17:45:23 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-17.04.moin.txt
<beuno> thank you everyone!
<dholbach> thanks :-)
<dholbach> oh... who will do the meeting minutes and chair next time?
<cjohnston> too late :-P
 * dholbach will do the minutes/team-report
<cjwatson> kees: are you chairing TB today?
<cjwatson> I can't remember who we agreed on last week (it wasn't in the IRC logs)
<sabdfl> thanks daniel, and akgraner will chair next CC
<sabdfl> hello TB :-)
 * pitti waves hello
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> back-to-back meetings - the TB will be moving as of next fortnight though :)
 * cjwatson gets the minutes of the last meeting out in the very nick of time, 32 seconds before the meeting
<pitti> FTR, I need to run out in about 35 mins
<cjwatson> I probably do as well - parent-teacher meeting this evening at which point I'm in charge of the other child
<cjwatson> can anyone chair?
<broder> wait, is the meeting supposed to be now or in an hour?
<pitti> so soren sent his excuses, haven't heard from kees and mdz
<cjwatson> I thought it was now
<pitti> broder: 1800 UTC, i. e. now
<broder> bah, stupid time zones. ok
<cjwatson> 15:36 <pitti> cjwatson, stgraber, mdz, kees, soren: TB is still at 1800 UTC today, i. e. an hour earlier now with winter time?
<cjwatson> 15:38 <cjwatson> yes, I guess so
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda says 18:00 UTC, so I took that as definitive place
<stgraber> #startmeeting Technical Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 18:06:41 2011 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<pitti> anyway, so next meeting will be in 11 days then, Monday evening?
<stgraber> #topic New meeting time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  New meeting time
<stgraber> let's start with that then :)
<stgraber> so based on the doodle poll, the new meeting time is now Monday at 21:00 UTC
<cjwatson> it's not ideal for me, but we knew that; I can manage it
<pitti> Monday 2100 only cuts into the first sleep hour, so that still WFM during winter time; I'd appreciate if we could move it back an hour during summer
<pitti> perhaps we can just tie it to London time instead of UTC?
<cjwatson> right, I proposed polling again at the next DST change
<cjwatson> sometimes things shift round more than that so I think it's better to repoll
<pitti> would make it easier to have a permanent definition which doesn't keep messing up personal schedules
<cjwatson> if it's done by somebody vaguely efficient rather than me then it shouldn't take too long :)
<pitti> ok
<cjwatson> actually I'd prefer to have occasional shifting around to share the pain ...
<pitti> heh, or that :)
<stgraber> I also prefer polling again in 6 months, so we can maybe find a better spot or indeed share the pain a bit :)
<pitti> so I guess that's settled
<stgraber> I'll update the wiki, anything else that needs changing?
<stgraber> #action stgraber to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda with the new meeting time
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda with the new meeting time
<cjwatson> wiki and maybe the Ubuntu engineering calendar
<stgraber> how do we update the calendar?
<cjwatson> if you don't have access, ask Michelle
<stgraber> ok, I'll have a look
<stgraber> #action stgraber to update the Ubuntu engineering calendar with the new meeting time
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to update the Ubuntu engineering calendar with the new meeting time
<stgraber> #topic Opening backports pocket pre-release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Opening backports pocket pre-release
<stgraber> so, back to backports
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001122.html
<broder> hello everyone
<pitti> points 2 and 3 seem no different to me than for "normal" backports
<pitti> and for point 4, yes, definitively source-only
<cjwatson> I'd like to dig into upload privileges a little bit
<pitti> for point 4 I think the requirements for early backport uploads should be like for regular ones, i. e. include a check-mir run perhaps?
<cjwatson> as discussed at the tail end of last meeting
<broder> i think we concluded last time that nobody was totally sure how the backports pocket worked currently, so we should probably talk about how we would *want* it to work, and adjust accordingly
<cjwatson> right
<cjwatson> originally, the TB said "only ubuntu-core-dev gets to do manual uploads to backports" (regardless of whether that's what's actually implemented in LP)
<pitti> my main point for discussion is the first bullet point
<broder> actually, i realized later that source-only copies aren't an option, because we can't have 2 different builds with the same version number in the archive
<cjwatson> I would prefer to just say that any developer with upload privileges to the package in question can upload it to -backports, and that we'd generally expect -backporters to review that
<cjwatson> that won't require adding another celebrity to LP or whatever, and it seems a reasonable policy
<stgraber> with upload privileges in the source or the target release?
<cjwatson> target I guess
<cjwatson> that's the one you're changing after all
<stgraber> right, and only core-devs could introduce a new package in -backports then?
<broder> and for pre-release backports, there is no source release, at least within ubuntu
<cjwatson> I agree that this means we might actually have to maintain the package sets for older releases
<cjwatson> stgraber: ubuntu-dev, I think
<cjwatson> if we just went with the natural LP policy
<cjwatson> sorry, n
<cjwatson> ubuntu-core-dev or motu (you have to have component upload privileges)
<stgraber> sounds good
<pitti> as all of these uploads will land in unapproved anyway, I don't see a problem with ~ubuntu-dev being technically able to upload
<micahg> should we allow new sources after feature freeze though?  IMHO, those could wait until the following release
<pitti> (as the usual script will not work, there's nothing to backport from)
<broder> micahg: i think allowing new sources is a huge benefit of this plan
<pitti> ^ agree
<cjwatson> I would like to allow ~ubuntu-backporters to be able to do queue management on the backports pocket
<broder> because previously there was an extended period where there was no way to get new sources into the archive, which is difficult for upstreams that are new to our cycle
<cjwatson> this will, I think, require some work in LP, but it seems eminently worthwhile
<cjwatson> that way we wouldn't impose much extra archive admin load
<pitti> and it would also get rid of the AA steps for the regular backports, makign the process smoother
<pitti> but it's not a blocker for this policy, anyway
<micahg> pitti: well, except for backporthelper
<pitti> micahg: do we need that?
<micahg> for no change backports?
<pitti> I thought these would be pretty much normal uploads, just with a differetn target (devrelease-backports)
<cjwatson> re pocket copies: we could simply copy source in universe and reupload things in main.  that would probably be good enough.
<pitti> cjwatson: you mean source+binaries in universe?
<cjwatson> ys
<cjwatson> *yes
<pitti> I'd prefer rebuilding it (new toolchain, FTBFS check, etc.)
<broder> allowing backporters to do queue management sounds spiffy. we already have that open request to LP to allow for separate queue privileges by packetset, right? i wonder if it's worth rolling this request into that
<pitti> or new library ABIs
<broder> cjwatson: is there a specific reason that AA need to do backports with backport-helper/mass-syncs instead of us doing them with backportpackage? i guess we bypass the new queues that way?
<cjwatson> I think it just meant we didn't have to do more checking
<cjwatson> pitti: you're probably right
 * micahg thought it was the same reason for using sync-helper and why the LP API is prefered for sync's, no round trip through dev machines
<cjwatson> once -backporters starts handling the queue admin, I wouldn't mind revisiting that
<cjwatson> I'd prefer we do that first though
<broder> ok
<cjwatson> that way -archive doesn't have to check that it's really the same package with changelog tweak
<broder> ah, right, because the queue doesn't actually give you the diff you care about. makes sense
<cjwatson> last time I raised a concern about skew in developer attention, but on reflection, I think it's mostly different developers involved
<cjwatson> and having a mechanism for people to get things into -backports early ought to take some pressure off the release team and allow us to have a higher-quality release in general
<cjwatson> as long as you folks are sensible about saying "no, this really ought to go into the release 'cos it's broken as it is"
<cjwatson> which AFAICS you're already doing with SRUs
<broder> yeah, "this should be an SRU" is one of our stock answers
<broder> i think extending that to "this should be a freeze exception" should be pretty natural
<pitti> with these, do you actually expect a huge influx of packages which are backported pre-release?
<pitti> my gut feeling is that we are talking about a magnitude of ten here
<broder> yeah, i don't think i expect it to be massive
<broder> or at least not initialy
<pitti> as for your first point, can we have a report which shows us when backports get obsoleted by release uploads?
<pitti> and/or an email notification?
<pitti> we have that in the pending-sru.html script already, should be simple to port
<micahg> well, if it
<pitti> it shows us when an SRU gets superseded by a -security upload
<pitti> in that case we need a merge or a new backport
<broder> yeah, and i've got a similar report for backports whose source was superseded by a security/SRU update
<micahg> ugh, if it's going into -proposed, we wouldn't want to remove that from -backports, right, since it'll be post release?
<pitti> something similar would also be useful for the existing backports
<broder> i can definitely do that
<pitti> e. g. you backport final version, then it gets a security update
<pitti> this should be re-backported, too
<micahg> oh, that's what you mean...
<broder> right - http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~broder/rebackporter/rebackports.json is the report i'm currently generating
<pitti> micahg: no, I mean if you upload to -backports at FF time, and the same package gets FFEd later on with a higher version
<micahg> ah, right, makes sense to remove, but would we want to do that for -proposed as well or just the release pocket?
<pitti> if that could alert the backporter team, or it auto-files bugs, or whatever, I'd be entirely happy with the proposal
<pitti> micahg: I think for -updates/-security uploads we generally want to update the backport as well
<pitti> for release, it might be a merge
<broder> i'm ok with having it auto-file bugs
<pitti> as we have both a newer version and a (potentially totally unrelated) fix to the release package
<micahg> +1 on auto-file
<cjwatson> auto-file with a tag, yes
<pitti> sorry, I need to run
<pitti> with the "superseded package" being flagged, and doing new uploads for main uploads into +1, I'm happy
<broder> thanks for your input, pitti
<stgraber> is there anything else we want to discuss on that topic? we unfortunately don't have quorum today, so I'd recommend to document the plan based on the dicussion we just had and vote on the final proposal at the next TB meeting
<cjwatson> right, we're now inquorate; I think I'm happy with this but it's significant enough that I think we should document what we have and not try to do it on a bare quorum anyway
<cjwatson> and there were enough changes suggested here that I think they deserve writing up
<broder> ok, so it sounds like (a) bot to monitor and file bugs about skew between -release and -backports, (b) modify -backports to require source-change uploads only from people with permission to upload to that package in other pockets, (c) do rebuilds of either everything or everything from main that gets copied forward to the +1, (d) possibly follow up with lp on allowing queue management granularity
<broder> by pocket?
<stgraber> yeah, even with pitti's +1, we're only at 3/6 members, so better have it well documented, letting the other TB members look at the final proposal and then vote on it in two weeks
<broder> anything i missed?
<cjwatson> that's everything I mentioned at least
<stgraber> looks good
<broder> ok. i can volunteer to write that up and update the list, then
<stgraber> broder: can you update the plan to include these few points and send an updated version to the ML (or a link to a wiki page?)?
<stgraber> sounds like a yes :)
<broder> :)
<broder> i'm also going to start working on a list of code that needs to be modified to support this
<stgraber> #action broder to update the plan for pre-release backports and send update to the TB mailing-list
<meetingology> ACTION: broder to update the plan for pre-release backports and send update to the TB mailing-list
<broder> cool. thanks for the feedback, everyone
<stgraber> broder: thanks!
<stgraber> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<stgraber> didn't find any new topic on there after a quick look. Only a discussion on upstart/lxc and a comment from Kate on bug 174375
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 174375 in Launchpad itself "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174375
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<stgraber> anything else?
<cjwatson> nothing from me
<cjwatson> and about to be called away, so :)
<stgraber> #topic Chair for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Chair for next meeting
<stgraber> I say we stick with kees as he's the next one in alphabetical order, any objection? :)
<cjwatson> wfm :)
<stgraber> perfect :)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 18:46:59 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-18.06.moin.txt
<stgraber> thanks everyone
<cjwatson> thanks for chairing
<kees> argh, stupid DST
 * inetpro so happy that we do not have DST in South Africa
<stgraber> sent the minutes for the TB meeting, currently in the moderation queue
<mdz> stgraber, hi
<mdz> what happened, no meeting?
<beuno> mdz, happened ^^^
<beuno> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-18.06.moin.txt
<mdz> hmm, the calendar says it was scheduled for 8 minutes ago :-/
<micahg> mdz: UTC + DST = uh-oh
<mdz> nobody pinged me, but I had another meeting anyway
<mdz> micahg, shared calendaring = better than nothing :-)
<micahg> heh, maybe kees can help with Google Calendar understanding UTC
<mdz> micahg, or someone can remember to update the calendar the 4x per year that this happens ;-)
<mdz> or fall back on email
<micahg> heh, that too
<mdz> anyway, rant over
<mdz> sorry I couldn't be at the meeting
<pleia2> if you set the time zone to Reykjavik, Iceland in google calendar you never have to change it (it's UTC and no DST)
<Myrtti> handy
<micahg> pleia2: is that what the fridge is set to?
<stgraber> mdz: 15:36 < pitti> cjwatson, stgraber, mdz, kees, soren: TB is still at 1800 UTC today, i. e. an hour earlier now with winter time?
<stgraber> anyway, we changed time for our next meeting, hopefully the calendar will be updated by then
<mdz> stgraber, I was still in bed at that time :-)
<mdz> and had already been scheduled into other meetings based on what was on my calendar for the past week
<mdz> for meetings during the work day, it's hard for me to attend unless the time is fixed in advance on the calendar
<pleia2> micahg: there isn't a default when you add stuff to fridge calendar (google calendar tries to help you by converting to your time zone) and when you embed a calendar in a website like on fridge it has more timezone options (it's set for GMT)
<AlanBell> beuno: czajkowski what was the problem with the #info command earlier? czajkowski said it overflowed or something??
<czajkowski> AlanBell: it didnt catch all the chars that were being copied in for an #info command
<czajkowski> it was missing the last 3 letters
<AlanBell> isn't that just an IRC/Freenode limit?
<AlanBell> long text: This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC  meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team ...
<AlanBell> ... is aware of it
<AlanBell> that was one line in irssi
<beuno> right
<beuno> it should of still captured tha amount that got through, no?
 * AlanBell goes to see what it does with #info anyway
<AlanBell> hmm, very little by the looks of things
<AlanBell> it captures it and puts it in a dictionary, but the moin output writer does not appear to use it
<AlanBell> and it doesn't echo it back to you (which I would argue is correct, I don't like echoey bots)
<beuno> right
<beuno> I thought it hadn't worked because it didn't echo anything back
<AlanBell> no, it worked, but the command doesn't do anything
<AlanBell> nothing to do with line length
<AlanBell> I am going to get it to do more echoing back privately to acknowledge it got things
<AlanBell> bug 891794
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891794 in Ubuntu IRC Bots "#info doesn't do much" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891794
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-18
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 18 00:00:16 2011 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pleia2> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for Thursday, November 17th. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<pleia2> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<pleia2> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<pleia2> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<pleia2> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<pleia2> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<pleia2> looks like kdub isn't here
<pleia2> Resistance: are you here?
<Resistance> affirmitive, standby 2 mins
<pleia2> Resistance: please go ahead and introduce yourself when you're ready :)
<marcoceppi> Hello!
<jrgifford> Hallo!
 * jrgifford is here in support of Resistance
<Oli> Wooooooo! (also here for Resistance!)
<pleia2> great :)
<Resistance> Firstly, i apologizing for holding everything up for two minutes, i happened to be in the midst of a phone call at the time.
<marcoceppi> I am also!
<mainerror> Same here!
<jrgifford> Resistance: you gambled you had a guy in front of you, didn't you? :P
<Oli> Well I'm playing SpaceChem. So there.
<marcoceppi> In support of resistance sending support via mobile phone
 * greg-g waves
<Resistance> Secondly, allow me to introduce myself.  My name, as my wiki page states (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Thomas%20Ward), is Thomas Ward.  I have been working with Ubuntu since the release of Jaunty (9.04), both receiving and providing support.  Initially starting out from the Ubuntu Forums, and providing support to users of Dell systems with Ubuntu, as I use Dell systems, I eventually began assisting with more complex
<Resistance> issues. ...
<cyphermox> yeah! /me loves Dell hardware for Ubuntu, generally
<pleia2> Resistance: oh! I didn't realize who you were, bah nick changes :)
<pleia2> (I recognised your real name, was trying to remember why)
<Resistance> pleia2:  aye, I'm a member of the PA Loco Team :P
<Resistance> I have been, as of late, working on increasing my technical knowledge of Packaging for Ubuntu, and recently gave a session to people on the AskUbuntu site regarding the basics of packaging and what is necessary to get started.
<greg-g> Resistance: could you link to that session, I'm curious!
<pleia2> wow, nice work on askubuntu
<Resistance> greg-g:  if you can give me two minutes to dig up the links, sure.
<Oli> It's in the testimonials
<pleia2> Resistance: any plans to get Pittsburgh area going with some release parties? :)
<Oli> http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/663
<Resistance> oh, Oli beat me to it :P
<greg-g> Oli: oh, thanks :)
<Resistance> pleia2:  i've actually been more active in the Harrisburg area as my studies have taken me to Penn State, Harrisburg Campus, for the Security and Risk Analysis, Cyber Security Focus, degree.
<pleia2> ah, cool
<pleia2> shame the harrisburg open source conference was canceled this year :(
<Resistance> Indeed.  If it had not been canceled, I would likely have attended.
<n0rman> great work Resistance
<Resistance> thank you, n0rman.
<n0rman> Resistance: so you are not collaborating with any LoCo Team ?
<pleia2> #voters greg-g pleia2 n0rman cyphermox
<meetingology> Current voters: cyphermox greg-g n0rman pleia2
<Resistance> n0rman:  I am still listed as a member on the Pennsylvania LoCo team, but my time schedule has not permitted me to attend any actual events.
<Resistance> I also have not actively collaborated with the Pennsylvania LoCo team due to that time schedule.
<Resistance> However, I do plan in future to participate more actively.
<pleia2> glad to hear it :)
<n0rman> cool :)
<pleia2> #vote Resistance Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Resistance Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<n0rman> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from n0rman
<pleia2> cyphermox?
<greg-g> uh oh :)
<greg-g> this happens sometimes with IRC meetings, not to worry ;)
<n0rman> +_+
<pleia2> canadian internet
<pleia2> :)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> hehe, sorry
<pleia2> yay!
<pleia2> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Resistance Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<pleia2> congrats Resistance :)
<cyphermox> indeed, canadian internet in cafÃ©s ;)
<Resistance> board members: I thank you all.  :)
<mainerror> \o/
<Resistance> and thanks pleia2!  :)
<cyphermox> thanks to you Resistance
<Oli> Congratulations Resistance
<cyphermox> also, make sure you add your blog to planet.u.c :)
<jrgifford> congrats Resistance !
<n0rman> congrats Resistance  :)
<Resistance> cyphermox:  my blog will likely change locations, but once its fully operational i'll put it there :)
<Resistance> and thanks to everyone :)
<cyphermox> awesome, congrats again!
<pleia2> and thanks to everyone who came out to support him, we really love to see tha t:)
<jrgifford> heh, it's our job. :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 18 00:20:37 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-18-00.00.moin.txt
<greg-g> belated congrats, Resistance :)
<Resistance> greg-g:  thank you :)
<amithkk>  Awesome Resistance is a member!
<nlsthzn_> Resistance is futile
 * skaet waves
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 18 16:00:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pitti> hello o/
<Daviey> \o
<scott-work> hi o/
<cjwatson> hi
<jibel> Hi
<skaet> :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Agenda can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-11-18
<skaet> .
<skaet> Welcome to first weekly release meeting for Precise Pangolin aka 12.04 LTS!
<skaet> Schedule for this release will be at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule  (some edits still need to happen, but they're later in schedule)
<skaet> Upcoming Dates:
<skaet> â¢ 11/24 - Feature Definition Freeze (aka Planning Freeze) - all blueprints should be in and approved
<skaet> â¢ 11/25 - status.ubuntu.com gets reset and tracking workitems starts.
<skaet> â¢ 12/01 - Alpha 1 release.
<skaet>  .
<skaet> New format for the meeting is to review the comments posted by other teams in ubuntu-release maillist before the meeting, and then ask questions.
<skaet> Please signal when you've finished comments/questions by ".."
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<skaet> #LINK http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, should be assigned to those teams.
<skaet> .
<skaet> questions?
<cjwatson> o/
<skaet> ..
<skaet> go ahead cjwatson
<cjwatson> I wanted to dig into the dssi-vst/multiarch thing that scott-work raised on -release (and I clarified)
<cjwatson> in particular I think the answer to this depends very much on whether there's more stuff on its way where we're going to want i386 packages on the amd64 images
<cjwatson> if it's just for a single package, then doing a lot of infra work seems a bit questionable, but if it's going to be for more than that then we should make sure it gets scheduled
<cjwatson> does anyone know of more upcoming examples of this kind of thing?
<cjwatson> ..
 * skaet not seeing any hands. 
 * stgraber checks
 * scott-work is on the phone at work
<skaet> ok,  any objection to going into the round table, and lets folks ponder,  and then get back to it at the end of the meeting?
<cjwatson> np
<cjwatson> just food for thought
<stgraber> nope, can't find any other
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team Q&A - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team Q&A - mlegris
<skaet> any questions from mlegris?  or question for him?
<mlegris> Finishing up the last of our systems this week
<mlegris> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/oneiric-testing/oneiric_final.html
<mlegris> ..
<Daviey> mlegris: Is there a list of the hardware you are cert'ing for server?
 * scott-work is back
<Daviey> (or any, i guess)
<mlegris> Daviey: Yes, its at the end of the page I posted
<skaet> mlegris,  can you post an email status to the ubuntu-release maillist going forward so folks have a chance to looking things over before the meeting next time?
<Daviey> That is what i get for typing too quickly.
<mlegris> skaet: sure thing
<skaet> thanks mlegris!
 * skaet doesn't see any more questions... so onwards
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA team Q&A -  jibel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team Q&A -  jibel
<Daviey> mlegris: hmm, can't we see bugs why it failed?
<Daviey> oh, sorry.
<skaet> Daviey, no worries,  just post it at the end after the round table.
<jibel> no question from the QA team
<jibel> Just a note about daily smoke tests. Desktop tests are failing since yesterday.
<skaet> thanks for getting the status mailed out.
<jibel> We'll investigate what's wrong first thing next week
<jibel> any question for us ?
<cjwatson> jibel: URL and I can have a quick look?
<cjwatson> on the possibility that it's not a test failure
<skaet> thanks jibel,  was going to ask about the daily smoke tests.
<skaet> where should folks go to see the result?
<jibel> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/ but the logs are empty. I need to replay the test manually
<jibel> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/oneiric-desktop-amd64_default/123/ for example
<cjwatson> er, oneiric?
<jibel> sorry https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/precise-desktop-amd64_default/134/
<cjwatson> I guess I can squeeze in a quick manual test run
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security team update - jdstrand
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> We've gotten our blueprints and work items in shape this week (which is evident from the wild ride that is our burndown atm ;). Like in previous releases, the security team gets to development work as time allows and we only commit to completing work items that have an 'Essential' priority.
<jdstrand> In that light, this cycle we have done things differently than in the past and moved all of our essential work items into their own essential blueprints. We then created the topic-precise-security-essential blueprint, that depends on our essential blueprints. This gives us and others the ability to more easily see our progress on things we are committed to implementing.
<jdstrand> (this can of course be seen in http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-security.html)
<jdstrand> We have no trend line on the burn down, so I will interpret that as us being below it. :)
<jdstrand> In terms of bugs worth highlighting:
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html#security
<jdstrand> 887332: the kernel team is handling this (patch needs to be rewritten and resubmitted upstream)
<jdstrand> 344878: plan is to make a change to ecryptfs to use pathconf, then to adjust userspace applications like evolution to properly honor pathconf. We will be adjusting ecryptfs and then filing bugs against applications that aren't honoring pathconf
<jdstrand> 800826, 872446, 851986: assigned, no progress
<jdstrand> that's it
<skaet> thanks jdstrand,  for next week, can this get mailed out to ubuntu-release mail list prior to the meeting? :)
<jdstrand> oh, has this changed? I must have missed an email
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: ^
<mdeslaur> sure
<Daviey> jdstrand: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000471.html
<skaet> thanks jdstrand, mdeslaur.  :)
<jdstrand> I should also mention that mdeslaur will be handling the release meetings from now on
<skaet> welcome mdeslaur :)
<skaet> any questions for jdstrand?
<skaet> before we move on?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
<ogasawara> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000472.html
<ogasawara> As I noted in my release meeting email, we're hoping to upload our first v3.2 based kernel today (pending some test feedback).  cjwatson also pointed out bug 888597 which I've fixed and will make sure it lands in the upload.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888597 in linux (Ubuntu) "linux-image-extra-3.1.0-2-virtual is uninstallable" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888597
<ogasawara> Also looks like our kernel speicic work item status page has recently appeared:
<ogasawara> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-kernel-essential.html
<jdstrand> Daviey: thanks
<ogasawara> ..
<skaet> thanks ogasawara,  is there going to be any issues with things stabilizing for A1?
<skaet> using the new kernel?
<ogasawara> skaet: should be shaping up.  we just tested the nvidia and fglrx drivers with the newer 3.2 kernel and seems to be working fine.
<ogasawara> skaet: also doing some smoke testing amongst the team and no major fires seen yet
<skaet> ogasawara, coolio.  just wondering about the timing of it landing,  with the thanksgiving holidays occuring.   But if the testing is looking good, we should be ok as long as it lands next week.
<skaet> any other questions for kernel team?
<gilir> o/
<skaet> gilir, go
<gilir> is there a date for the PAE no-PAE support decision ?
<ogasawara> gilir: still being discussed.  I'm going to raise it with the team next week as some of the key players are traveling this week.
 * ogra_ guesses the final decision will be posted to the kernel ML
<ogasawara> gilir: I'll give an update next week, but there will be follow up on the thread as well
<ogra_> or ubuntu-devel
<gilir> ok thanks :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team update - cjwatson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000476.html
<cjwatson> Q&A not update, right?
<skaet> yup
<skaet> sorry, missed that edit.  :P
<cjwatson> quick update on those bugs: the doc-base one is fixed although I'm waiting for the relevant Launchpad cron job to notice the latest Debian perl upload so that I can sync it, to finish fixing the upgrade path
<cjwatson> on the update-inetd one, I've sent a possible patch to Debian for review
<cjwatson> they're both facets of the same underlying problem
<cjwatson> that should all be comfortably out of the way by alpha 1
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> thanks cjwatson,  minor typo in your email status
<cjwatson> mm?
<skaet> bugs committed to being fixed are rls-p-tracking list
<cjwatson> oh, right
<skaet> bugs of interest to the release (ie. nominations to be considered) are rls-mgr-p-tracking
<cjwatson> yeah, I'll sort out my confusion over those two over time
 * skaet probably needs to make that a little clearer going forward.
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any questions for cjwatson?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - Daviey
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - Daviey
<Daviey> hullo
<Daviey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000479.html
<skaet> thanks Daviey.
 * skaet doesn't have questions
<Daviey> I noticed bug 735072 is associated to our team, and targeted to be fixed.  We didn't commit to that
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 735072 in samba (Ubuntu) "The hostname proposed by installer is too long for file sharing to work correctly." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/735072
<Daviey> Any questions?
<ogra_> are we there yet ?
<ogra_> :P
<Daviey> ogra_: I'll tell you when we do, ask again, and you'll get no cookies!
<ogra_> *sniff*
<skaet> Daviey - bug is not on the rls-p-tracking list,  just on the nominations list.   I'll look into it a bit more after this.
<Daviey> skaet: rocking
<skaet> commit (rls-p-tracking)  nominate (rls-mgr-p-tracking) ... see comments above that this needs to be clarified. :)
 * skaet not seeing any other questions... so....
<skaet> Thanks Daviey!
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A-  ogra
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team Q&A-  ogra
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000483.html
<ogra_> nothing to add from my side ...
<skaet> Thanks ogra!  :)
 * skaet looks around for questions
<ogra_> (and sorry for the late mail, next week will be better)
 * skaet happy to see images building  :) 
<ogra_> wellm live images are a desaster ...
<ogra_> but we'll get them :)
<skaet> ogra_, :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro Q&A- fabo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Q&A- fabo
<fabo> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000484.html
<skaet> thanks fabo! :)
<fabo> I forget to add that upcoming release will support PandaBoard ES
<fabo> ..
<ogra_> thast 4460 ?
<ogra_> *thats
<fabo> ogra_: yes
<ogra_> awesome
<ogra_> i thought there was support already
<ogra_> i saw oneiric booting on a 4460
<ogra_> ..
<fabo> unofficial, until now :)
<ogra_> ah
<fabo> sorry for the late mail as well, I'll do better next time
<fabo> ..
<skaet> dbarth, do you have any comments on the OpenGL ES 2 support that fabo's asking about in his status?
<dbarth> the only thing i can say is that everything is blocked due to the absence of tests
<dbarth> expect no code changes until that situation is resolved
<fabo> dbarth: missing tests where? code or something else?
<dbarth> that branch is blocked, like many others
<dbarth> yes, the code needs to come with tests
<dbarth> the type of which, and level of validation is still subject to negotiations
<fabo> hmm ok, I'll raise that to the graphics WG
<cjwatson> this is in response to the acceptance criteria stuff?
<dbarth> i can't give you a firm guideline on the kind of test(s) you need to add for that branch to be unblocked; but that definition is what i'm working on
<dbarth> yes
<skaet> thanks dbarth,  will let you and fabo discuss further outside meeting then.
<dbarth> skaet: +1
<skaet> any other questions for fabo?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
 * skaet doesn't see joshuahoover... moving on
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
<pitti> see the already mailed out report: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<skaet> :)
<pitti> I think we are in ok shape for alpha-1
<pitti> we haven't really started breaking anything yet (and don't really plan to, except for the potential switch to RB)
<Daviey> pitti: Happen t know if/when a new X will land, that might break non-free drivers?
<pitti> we are mildly oversized, but nothing we can't handle at this point
<pitti> Daviey: haven't heard imminent plans to update from bryce or Chris
<Daviey> ta
<skaet> Thanks pitti,   not worrying about size too much for A1 (nice to have, not essential).  :)
<dbarth> o/
<skaet> dbarth go
<pitti> it's just 1 or 2 MB
<dbarth> can we have the confirmation that it will *not* break the non-free drivers?
<pitti> I don't know if the next version will change ABI again; I'll ask Chris/Bryce on Monday and get back
<dbarth> said otherwise, the requirement to have a stable ubuntu, also applies to X; no 2 weeks with nvidia support is what i'm saying
<pitti> we should certainly try to avoid it at least during precise
<dbarth> without
<dbarth> thanks
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Experience Team Q&A - dbarth
<dbarth> (sorry for the late email, i hope it passe though)
<dbarth> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
<dbarth> in a nutshell we're blocked on the definition of tests; but assembled 2 tasksforce to create good reference examples and unblock the situation
<dbarth> but no bug fixes or anything else until it's done (next week hopefully)
<dbarth> the bug tags are now enforced with didrocks i think, so process wise we're getting there
<dbarth> ..
<skaet> dbarth,  no worries, we're all ramping up to get this more efficient for next time.   Looking forward to getting us unblocked.   Can we live with what we have for Alpha 1 or is the release at risk?
<dbarth> no, it's not at this point ;)
<skaet> s/release/milestone release/
<dbarth> we'll have a good unity in 12.04
<skaet> dbarth,  so no significant changes expected between now and  Dec 1?
<ogra_> dbarth, what about the gles code merge, will it be there for A1 as agreed on ?
<dbarth> we'll stay on the maintenance version, ie 4.x branch for now
<dbarth> ogra_: they're in the merge queue, we need to clarify with didrocks the level of tests he wants
<dbarth> let's take that offline
<ogra_> k
<skaet> thanks dbarth.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
 * skaet missed a s/update/Q&A/ again.... drat!
<skaet> lol
 * skaet not seeing Riddell though... or seeing anything posted,  so moving on.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000474.html
<skaet> :)
<stgraber> on my phone, expect slow answers :)
<skaet> stgraber, thanks.   :)   with edubuntu not building,  are you going to be able to release alpha 1 image?
<cjwatson> sorry about the fuse bit, I'll make sure that gets sorted out
<cjwatson> I will ensure it doesn't block you for a1
<skaet> :)
<stgraber> I dont't expect any other problem for a1
<skaet> thanks!
<skaet> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - ??
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - ??
<scott-work> should be knome but i don't know he's here
<madnick> We are just observers this tiume, I think (?) unless micahg has something to say :)
<skaet> yeah,  I
<skaet> I'll work with knome to figure something out for next time.   He said he has someone, but not sure who yet.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Q&A - scott-work
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio Q&A - scott-work
<scott-work> email  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000475.html
<scott-work> nothing really to add except for the ia32-libs which i can clarify with colin offline
<skaet> Thanks scott-work!
 * skaet didn't see any issues in the status, so moving on...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
<gilir> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000477.html
<skaet> thanks gilir,  re: powerpc,  let me know when there's testers line up for it,  and I'll put it on the manifest.
<scott-work> o/
<gilir> ok, I'll see this point next week
 * skaet has not been seeing the powerpc images get much testing love - so want to make sure that's in place before we add to builds.
<skaet> go scott-work
<skaet> thanks gilir
<scott-work> i should have mentioned earlier that we will be starting testing of the -lowlatency kernel vs. -generic next week
<scott-work> ..
<cjwatson> to clarify, it's not adding to builds - lubuntu/powerpc is already being daily-built
<cjwatson> it's adding to test manifests
<gilir> yes powerpc are build, just not tested :)
<skaet> scott-work,  thanks for adding.   Are you going to be trying to put it out with the A1 images?
<scott-work> skaet: i do not expect to, we have quite a bit of testing and evaluation i think
<scott-work> not to mention, getting the package through revu and into the archive
<scott-work> ..
<skaet> scott-work,  *whew*  ;)
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU Team update - tumbleweed or Laney
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Team update - tumbleweed or Laney
 * skaet seeing both of them marked away ... moving on
<skaet> [TOPIC] any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: any other business?
<stgraber> http://91.189.93.73
<Laney> I thought we weren't giving regular updates
<skaet> anyone have further comments or cases for: <cjwatson> I wanted to dig into the dssi-vst/multiarch thing that scott-work raised on -release (and I clarified)
<skaet> <cjwatson> in particular I think the answer to this depends very much on whether there's more stuff on its way where we're going to want i386 packages on the amd64 images
<skaet> Laney,  I should have typed Q&A - my bad
<cjwatson> there's no huge urgency on that since it won't get done before the germinate changes needed for faster publishing anyway
<pitti> as for the main Ubuntu images, I'd really like to avoid introducing such a case
<pitti> it would add quite a lot of overhead (you will at least have to install a second glibc etc. onto the images)
<scott-work> cjwatson: in the short term should we consider removing dssi-vst from the seeds?
<scott-work> i can check on the impact of that
<stgraber> above url is the work in progress iso tracker, comments and suggestions are welcome (soon to be feature-equivalent to the current one)
<pitti> it seems most use cases are related to proprietary extra stuff which we only offer to download on demand
<Daviey> stgraber: Any progress on an API?
<pitti> so I can't think of anything else
<cjwatson> scott-work: if you're willing to do that, that's a good short-term option IMO; I don't know exactly what features you lose by doing so
<cjwatson> pitti: main Ubuntu images> agreed
<stgraber> api works to add builds, api to add results should be there this afternoon
<cjwatson> scott-work: perhaps we should have that be downloaded on demand during installation, since it's proprietary?
<cjwatson> or, well, dependent on proprietary bits
<cjwatson> anyway, we can discuss by mail or whatever
<skaet> stgraber,  its looking very good!  Looking forward to it.     One issue is that Drupal7 is not deployed yet it appears,  I'll be requesting it from IS today.
<scott-work> cjwatson: i will look into it and get with you about it later
<stgraber> skaet: thanks
 * skaet sees that the threads and questions have wound down...
<Daviey> Surely we have another 20 mins? :)
<skaet> Thanks everyone for participating,  and a big THANK YOU to those who got their status in email before the meeting.  :)
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 18 17:10:46 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-18-16.00.moin.txt
<pitti> Daviey: actually the point of the new format was to make it a lot faster :)
<stgraber> thanks!
<pitti> thanks everyone, have a good weekend!
<Daviey> pitti: Yep!
<skaet> Thanks mlegris, jibel, jdstrand, ogasawara, cjwatson, Daviey, ogra, fabo, pitti, dbarth, stgraber, gilir, scott-work, Laney!
<ogra_> thanks skaet !
<jdstrand> thanks skaet!
<mlegris> Daviey: http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/oneiric_blockers.html
<mlegris> thank skaet!
<jibel> skaet, thanks !
<fabo> skaet: thanks :)
<scott-work> thanks skaet , et al
<Daviey> mlegris: How much work would it be to make a server speicifc list?
<mlegris> Daviey: not sure, brendand makes the reports
<Daviey> mlegris: If it isn't too much work, I would monitor such a report to try and make sure things make progress.
<darrenhawke12345> hiiiiii
<darrenhawke12345> girls add 26B22AED
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-20
<Guest6823> i am facing issue with user roles
<Guest6823> by default the user is getting login user rights
<ross-15d> hola
<AlanBell> hi
<ross-15d> hola
<ross-15d> de donde eres
<AlanBell> !es
<ubottu> En la mayorÃ­a de canales de Ubuntu se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol o charlar entra en el canal #ubuntu-es. Escribe "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y dale a enter.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-12
 * stgraber waves
<soren> Hello?
<cjwatson> hi
<cjwatson> last minutes I can find say pitti was due to chair, but he's not here
<cjwatson> OTOH we have no agenda
<cjwatson> the only outstanding mail I see is the one from Allison regarding ARB process changes, which it doesn't seem particularly requires meeting attention, though it wouldn't hurt for people to review by mail when they can
<soren> Well, that was easy :)
<cjwatson> so do we need a meeting?
<stgraber> I don't really have anything to discuss. I'll try to spend some time to review the ARB process change and reply on the list
<pitti> kees, soren, stgraber, cjwatson: meeting now?
<pitti> hm, seems I missed it then
<stgraber> pitti: hi! yeah, we had a very brief "meeting" an hour ago
<stgraber> pitti: basically saying that we didn't have anything on the agenda and that the only thing currently pending is the ARB policy change
<stgraber> pitti: which should be discussed on the ML instead
<ScottK> stgraber: You forgot to tell pitti he has to chair the next three because he skipped showing up when he was supposed to chair.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-13
<pitti> stgraber: ah, thanks
<pitti> ScottK: I chaired last time?
<jamespage> zul, did you run last weeks meeting?
<zul> jamespage: indeed i did
<smb> has it started already?
<zul> 2 minutes
<smb> Ah ok. Just wondered what you did as I joined just then
<smb> zul, btw, I am working on the xen update right now
<zul> smb: problems?
<smb> zul, Not because of problems but because of the things we said we would do with it at UDS
<zul> ah ok
<smb> Well not you but me while you were hiding in the front-row ;-P
<zul> smb: i have become pretty good i thought at the last uds ;)
<smb> Perfectly working OPP fields ;)
<SpamapS> people seem to not be updating the agenda.. or list of chairs..
<SpamapS> or the date o the meeting
<rbasak> Note to chairs: there's a handy checklist here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Team_policy
<smb> My chair does not seem to care...
<rbasak> Stick a note on your chair so that the next time you sit down on the chair and you are the chair you'll remember :-P
<smb> rbasak, Luckily for me this is an OPP
<jamespage> OK _ so lets work down the list
<jamespage> zul did it last week
<zul> did the meeting start?
<jamespage> utlemming, able to chair? you are at the head of the list
<Daviey> Hmm, meeting starts in 49 mins?
<smb> I think we still are in the land of tz confusion
<utlemming> jamespage: nope, I have a regular conflict to this meeting now
 * jamespage updates the meeting page
<smb> jamespage, Note that kernel team has 17UTC slot
<jamespage> Daviey, OK - so time zone confusion aside the meeting should be right now
<jamespage> not in 45 minutes time as smb points out
<zul> or 14 minutes ago
<jsalisbury> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/ ;-)
<jamespage> OK - lets find a chair then
<jamespage> as hallyn is not in channel
<jamespage> maybe smoser can do the honours
<smoser> oh boy.
<jamespage> smoser: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/IRCCommands
<jamespage> helpful commands
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 13 16:20:39 2012 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> no action items carried over
<smoser> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Raring Development
<smoser> Daviey, did you want to talk some here?
<smoser> blueprints should be just about settled.
<Daviey> smoser: I think you can cover it :)
<smoser> i'll take an action to review them today or tomorrow and bother anyone whose are not in good state.
<Daviey> smoser: You, jamespage and myself will be reviewing blueprints this week, right?
<smoser> #action smoser, jamespage, daviey review blueprints
<meetingology> ACTION: smoser, jamespage, daviey review blueprints
<jamespage> Daviey, smoser: lets schedule some time todo that then
<smoser> after meeting, jamespage
<smoser> other thing here is that  would like to get "milestones" in place.
<Daviey> smoser: Monthly ?
<smoser> we dont really have milestones (alpha1, alpha2...) but i thinkw e want to still target blueprints for "general finished" at given points in the cycle.
<smoser> ah. the Monthly things are in now.
<smoser> coo.
<smoser> ie, you can now target bugs to "ubuntu-13.04-month-1"
<smoser> (also 'alpha-X' which is strange)
<smoser> anyway.
<smoser> anyone have anything else for this ?
<smoser> o. moving on
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> None planned AFAIK?
<smoser> utlemming and I will be at re:invent which is the week after next.
<smoser> dr mimms and SpamapS also i think.
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<smoser> hggdh is not present...
<SpamapS> indeed
<smoser> anyone have QA like topics for disucssion ?
<SpamapS> oh sorry I forgot to pipe up in events
<SpamapS> I'll also be talking at ScaleLA next Tuesday
<SpamapS> http://www.meetup.com/scalela/
<smoser> cool.
<Daviey> Oo
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Working on on bug 1023755. Depending on io scheduler (cfq/deadline) I think I got one half down to somewhere between v3.3-rc7 and v3.3 (bug messed up the bisect), the other half may be related to cfq and seemed to exist in Quantal stiil. Beside that I am working on an update to Xen Raring to cover the things we said we would do at UDS.
<smb> ..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1023755 in linux (Ubuntu) "Precise kernel locks up while dd to /dev/mapper files > 1Gb (was: Unable to delete volume)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1023755
<smoser> smb is all over it.
<smoser> smb, also... it seemed like you had some kernel changes in the pike for 10.04
<smb> smoser, Oh yeah that. Sort of dump the special ec2 patches and just use the same codebase as for the generic kernels
<smoser> http://people.canonical.com/~smb/lucid-ec2-ng
<smb> Just slightly different options and a few other patches
<smoser> if anyone wants to give that stuff a spin on EC2 (generic xen couldn't hurt i dont think), that'd be great
<smoser> thanks smb.
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report. Any questions for me?
<smoser> rbasak, i've just uploaded to precise-proposed a cloud-init update that addresses 'ports.ubuntu.com' for arm
<smoser> SpamapS, ... your help would be appreciated on that review.
<rbasak> Awesome. Thanks!
<smoser> anything else related to the arm ?
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<smoser> our cloud iamges are currently experiencing issues for raring
<smoser> utlemming did some bisection yesterday.
<smoser> there were two issues:
<smoser> a.) we weren't finding the Ec2 Datasource on ec2 or openstack
<smoser> b.) we appear to "lose" some output that shoudl hit the console, making debugging harder. ie, cloud-init's 'log.warn' should get to/dev/console, but the messages were not getting there.
<smoser> c.) cloud-init in raring == cloud-init in quantal at the moment
<smoser> so..
<smoser> that will be fun.
<smoser> anyone else open discussion , or solutions to my problems ?
<zul> also we have an SRU for nova and quantum on quantal that seems to be stuck or not moving
<zul> (ie: uploaded but not processed)
<zul> smoser: i dont have a solution to your problem ;)
<smoser> ah. we should also welcome mikal, but since he lives in the far distant future, he is not here.
<smoser> mikal will be working on openstack for us. hooray.
<SpamapS> Hey has anyone been following debian's cloud image efforts?
<smoser> i'm on ec2debian mailing list
<smoser> but thats about it. and that is slow moving.
<smoser> was there something specifically you were interested in SpamapS  ?
<SpamapS> its not ec2debian, there's a debian-cloud now
<SpamapS> They're pushing images into Azure as well as EC2
<SpamapS> smoser: I'm just wondering if people have thoughts on how we might collaborate there.
<xnox> there was call for help maintaining cloud-init in/for debian images.
<SpamapS> As Debian users move onto the cloud, they'll likely bring new ideas that we can incorporate into Ubuntu's cloud images.
<utlemming> SpamapS: do you have a link?
<smoser> http://lists.debian.org/debian-cloud/2012/11/threads.html
 * smoser will join list.
<xnox> some of this stuff was on debian-private though (the azure bits)
<SpamapS> https://lists.debian.org/debian-cloud/
<smoser> and respond to call for cloud-init.
<SpamapS> xnox: Azure is being discussed on debian-cloud tho
<SpamapS> https://lists.debian.org/debian-cloud/2012/11/msg00039.html
<xnox> SpamapS: now it is =) good.
<SpamapS> xnox: <phew> thought I was being a real oaf there for a second.
<utlemming> SpamapS: for Azure, I probably need to spend some time with them, since I package their agent.
 * xnox was only following debian-private.
<SpamapS> utlemming: yeah, it might be good to not duplicate that effort. :)
<SpamapS> Oh there's also a #debian-cloud on OFTC
<smoser> thanks SpamapS
<smoser> anyone have anythign else ?
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> Same time, or an hour later?
<zul> same time
<smoser> this meeting has been 16:00 UTC for probably 2 years.
<smoser> but that isn't necessarily a reason that US/Pacific people should have to be online at 8:00 AM
<SpamapS> yeah, sucks for west coast US but meh
<smoser> ok. failing any other arguments...
<Daviey> smoser: and for the alst 2 years, west-coasters have complained, and sucked at turning up :)
<SpamapS> nobody on the west coast of the US uses Ubuntu server
<smoser> ok.
<SpamapS> well I mean except *all of silicon valley*, but who cares about those nerds?
<smoser> next meeting: Tuesday 2012-11-20 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<smoser> #end-meeting
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 13 16:49:12 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-13-16.20.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-13-16.20.html
<Daviey> SpamapS: exactly
<Daviey> thanks smoser
<arosales> thanks  soser
<arosales> smoser, that is
<smoser> SOSER!
<arosales> tab completion failed me
<arosales> :-)
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 13 17:00:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<herton> o/
<sforshee> o/
<henrix> o/
<rtg> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new this week
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/canonical-kernel-distro-team-ubuntu-13.04-month-1.html
<ogasawara> That link acutally displays no work items as the new tracking checkpoints have just been created.  I'll get our blueprints updated.  Expect an itemized list in next week's meeting.  For now, I'd suggest looking at:
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Last week we uploaded the first v3.7-rc4 based Raring kernel to the archive.  It is currently sitting in raring-proposed.  We have also just rebased our raring tree to upstream v3.7-rc5.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * 13.04 Month 1 Checkpoint - ??? (release schedule has not been updated)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<henrix> Currently we have 26 CVEs on our radar, with 3 CVE added and 1 CVE retired since last meeting.
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (November 13):
<henrix>  * Hardy - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; (1 commits)
<henrix>  * Lucid - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; (2 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In Testing, security signoff (from previous cycle)
<henrix>            - In Preparation (current cycle); 2 CVEs; 6 upstream stable release(s); (200 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Testing, security signoff (from previous cycle)
<henrix>            - In Preparation; 2 CVEs; 2 upstream stable release(s); (253 commits)
<henrix>  * Quantal - In Preparation; 2 CVEs; (11 commits)
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 13 17:05:21 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-13-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-13-17.00.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-14
<kokoye2007> Hello
<head_victim> Good evening
<head_victim> I'm trying to rustle up some other members for the meeting
<kokoye2007> cyphermox:
<kokoye2007> hello
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<kokoye2007> Destine:  Hello
<kokoye2007> Pendulum: I am here :D
<Destine> kokoye2007, hey
<Destine> kokoye2007, anything i can help?
<kokoye2007> micahg:  also there :D
<kokoye2007> Destine: today is meeting day 2nd Wed ?
<Destine> kokoye2007, nope, the next meeting will be Nov 21st.
<kokoye2007> @_@
<meetingology> kokoye2007: Error: "_@" is not a valid command.
<kokoye2007> opps
<kokoye2007> last meeting is 7th Nov ? Destine ?
<Destine> kokoye2007, sorry i got confused now...
<kokoye2007> i am wait at 7th Nov but say next week X_X
<Destine> kokoye2007, i was here last time...
<kokoye2007> so i am wait to next meeting ? 21 Nov Destine and head_victim
<head_victim> kokoye2007: sorry mate, we're trying to work out why the 2 statements on the wiki are conflicting. I thought it was this week but apparently others didn't.
<head_victim> Trying to see where the breakdown was.
<Destine> kokoye2007, we are figuring this out, sorry.
<kokoye2007> sorry for distribute bro, i really don't know so sorry
<kokoye2007> ok see you next wed day Destine and head_victim  thx for your reply
<Destine> kokoye2007, sorry for the inconvenience...
<head_victim> kokoye2007: we'll email all the applicants when we've sorted out what's happening so you don't keep turning up and no one is here
<sbhw> balloons stary the meeting pls
<ogra_> boo
<cjwatson> hi - do we have slangasek today?
 * barry waves
<stokachu> <('o')>
<xnox> yeah, barry =)
<barry> #endmeeting
<barry> oh darn
<xnox> this weeks kernel team meeting lasted 6 minutes.
<xnox> =))))
<ogra_> slackers !"
<barry> "<barry> #endmeeting  [11:04]"
<barry> we win
<xnox> ogra_: I think they had pre-arranged pasties ready.
 * ogra_ has that too
 * barry thought you said "rearranged pasties" which is an entirely different thing
<cjwatson> Somebody whose copy-and-paste isn't irritatingly broken please chair, then, and we'll get this over with :)
<xnox> and all took a quick 5 minute break between git-bisections
<jodh> xnox: I thought they survived on liquids?!?
 * cjwatson spies an en_GB vs. en_US difference ...
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 14 16:06:47 2012 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<barry> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<barry> i don't have the list, so how 'bouts we go alphabetical?
<xnox> go barry =)
<barry> bug 1076107 (upgrade requests to 0.14.2); reviewed ~mvo fix for bug 1071388; bug 846044 (dbus-python re-upload to quantal-proposed); bug 1029094 (replace simplejson with json in ubuntuone-control-panel); bug 1076186 (raring, and quantal sru ubuntu-release-upgrader); python-oauthlib upgrade to 0.3.2-0ubuntu1, and then to 0.3.3-0ubuntu1; debian bug 664759 (packaging for python-tox); bug 1077083 (oauth->oauthlib for piston-mini-client, in
<barry> progress); virtualenv 1.8.2 (in progress); patch piloting (see previous report); blueprints and other work items for raring; various system administration tasks (upgrades, repairs, nexus7 installation).   done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076107 in requests (Debian) "Upgrade to new upstream version 0.14.2" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076107
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1071388 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "UnicodeDecodeError in askYesNoQuestion of DistUpgradeViewText.py" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1071388
<barry> but you already knew ^^
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 846044 in dbus-python (Ubuntu Quantal) "software-center crashed with UnicodeEncodeError in get_dbus_message(): 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xfc' in position 65: ordinal not in range(128)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/846044
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1029094 in ubuntuone-control-panel (Ubuntu Raring) "Replace simplejson with json" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1029094
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076186 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "not possible to upgrade to raring" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076186
<cjwatson> https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/always-copy-packages-asynchronously-2/+merge/131928
<cjwatson> oops
<cjwatson> https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/always-copy-packages-asynchronously-2/+merge/131928
<cjwatson> ARGH
 * xnox thinks security team does a baton. Once you finish yours you get to pick who is next.
<cjwatson> Fixed crazy python-apt test failure.
<cjwatson> Made intermittent progress on Secure Boot backports for 12.04.2.  Still more to do.
<barry> no worries, i'm done :)
<cjwatson> Backported upstream fix for rare data corruption in cp/mv/install (bug 1073514).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1073514 in coreutils (Ubuntu Quantal) "cp, mv, install: data loss due to free memory read" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1073514
<cjwatson> Tweaked raring images to include only a signed kernel, and generate the unsigned kernel from it.
<cjwatson> Spent a good deal of time babysitting proposed-migration, image builds, and the like.  The initial flood of minor problems seems to be tailing off now.
<cjwatson> Working on a cross-autobuilder so that we can test armhf cross-building at scale; taking the opportunity to learn juju.  Nothing to show just yet but I think I'm fairly close to having a working wanna-build charm.
 * bdmurray waits
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> *that's* better
<cjwatson> Oh drat sorry Brian
<cjwatson> go ahead :)
<xnox> cjwatson: with or without forking/using sbuild charm?
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1067993
<bdmurray> SRU uploads (lucid and precise) for unattended-upgrades bug 936870
<bdmurray> sponsored SRU uploads for bug 1013798 (later rejected)
<bdmurray> sponsored quantal, raring, precise, oneiric fixes for bug 875435
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1067993 in vim (Ubuntu Raring) "Add 'raring' to the list of recognized Ubuntu release names" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1067993
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 936870 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Precise) "unattended upgrade failing due to incorrectly detected conffile prompt due to "newconffile" line" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/936870
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013798 in libgcrypt11 (Ubuntu Quantal) "Blink SIP client segfaults with libgcrypt11 1.5.0-3ubuntu0.1" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013798
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875435 in OEM Priority Project precise "iBus indicator does not show on the panel" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875435
<bdmurray> reported bug 1076186 regarding ubuntu-release-upgrader
<bdmurray> reported bug 1076472 regarding errors and bucket subscriptions
<bdmurray> investigation into update-manager / u-r-u crash reporting process for dist-upgrades
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076186 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "not possible to upgrade to raring" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076186
<cjwatson> xnox: currently, using it with a minor tweak
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076472 in Errors "notifications regarding current bucket counts" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076472
<bdmurray> reported apport bug 1077253 regarding ExecutableTimestamp issue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077253 in apport (Ubuntu) "possible for ExecutableTimestamp to not be for the binary in ExecutablePath" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077253
<bdmurray> modifying bug bot to comment on pending SRUs still needing verification
<bdmurray> updated SRU wiki page with self-verification information
<bdmurray> updated meta-release-development with raring information
<bdmurray> one holiday too
<bdmurray> â doneâ
<xnox> cjwatson: ack. I had minor tweaks to it locally as well.... maybe I should push them somewhere.
<barry> xnox: +1
<ogra_> *shudder* winter UTF
<cjwatson> xnox: mine is to install and configure the buildd package as well (which I haven't finished doing)
<xnox> cjwatson: mine was to use $storage_location with default to /mnt as this were one usually gets the gigleybytes of scratch space.
<cjwatson> I could use that, please pass me the patch :)
<xnox> s/this were/this is where/
<barry> i guess doko_ is up next?
<doko_> ouch
<doko_> I'll go last, lost in hacking ...
<barry> is ev around?
<barry> f...g...h...i...
<stokachu> igloo!
 * ogra_ is happy to go, but i think jodh is first
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   * Wrote user sessions spec (comments welcome):
<jodh>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions
<jodh>   * Updates to stateful re-exec branch after review comments (thanks slangasek)
<jodh>   * Final testing
<jodh>   * Preparing for 1.6 release
<jodh>   * investigating bug 1075976
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1075976 in upstart (Ubuntu) "test-suite fails in autopkgtest environment" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075976
<jodh> * TODO
<jodh> *** Upstart 1.6 release and raring upload
<jodh>   * precise SRU for bug 980917
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980917 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "Failed to create pty - disabling logging for job [SRU]" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980917
<jodh>   * start work on Enhanced User Sessions
<jodh> Â¡
<jodh>  
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * got a chromebook \o/, runs awesome with raring
<ogra_>  * blocked on linux-nexus7 being stuck in new since a week
<ogra_>  * blocked on completely missing arm livefs builder (seems to be hard to fix without taking all arm machines in the DC out of business)
<ogra_>  * extended ac100-tarball-installer to support nexus7 (i'll rename it soon as well)
<ogra_>  * fixed issues with live-build that i found with manually rolled images
<ogra_>  * looked into plymouth breakage on devices that have i.e. console= or console=none on the kernel cmdline
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * merges
<ogra_>  * flash-kernel bugfixes
<ogra_>  * finally get the nexus7 images going
<ogra_>  * set up a regular meeting for discussing the remaining WIs of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-reduced-power-ram
<ogra_> ..
<xnox> ogra_: me +1 on the meeting.
<ogra_> yeah, its a WI i have :)
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Merged iproute from experimental as some people want the new upstream to try some bufferbloat fixes.
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Rebased staging branch on upstream master.
<stgraber>   - Reviewed all outstandings merge proposals and bugs, now down to 0 MP and 0 bugs on github (sourceforge and launchpad are another story).
<stgraber>   - Fixed daily builds.
<stgraber>   - Split templates to a new lxc-templates package.
<stgraber>   - Changed lxc-create to support being given the full path to a template.
<stgraber>   - Completed switch to docbook2x for the manpage generation.
<stgraber>   - Change upstream build to use -Wall -Werror and fixed outstanding warnings so that it builds fine on all supported Ubuntu versions.
<stgraber>  - Post-UDS
<stgraber>   - Did some spec drafting and dumped some remaining work items in some existing blueprints.
<stgraber>  - QA Tracker
<stgraber>   - Finished changes to support storing the manifest in the tracker and landed the changes.
<stgraber>   - Updated ubuntu-archive-tools to use the upstream python-qatracker module, fix a bunch of bugs and be more consistent.
<stgraber>   - Updated nusakan to post the Chinese images directly to the localized ISO tracker.
<stgraber>   - Fixed the 404/403 handling that was the top crasher for the ISO tracker (though not user visible).
<stgraber>   - Fixed high priority bug in the add_build code, will land later today.
<stgraber>   - Started some optimization work for the tracker.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Doing some more optimization and bugfixes for the tracker.
<stgraber>   - Some UI improvements for series/milestone on the tracker.
<stgraber>   - Try to generate https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes from nusakan.
<stgraber>   - Look at jodh's upstart specs.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<stokachu> bug 1068723 - would like to personally have some traction on this one
<stokachu> bug 669481 - needing oneiric sponsorship
<stokachu> bug 979003 - Status on SRU verification?
<stokachu> - Dealing with issues from other channels this week, nothing else needing
<stokachu> immediate Foundations attention.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1068723 in Precise Backports "Please backport pbuilder-scripts 17 (universe) from quantal" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068723
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 669481 in grub2 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Timeout should not be -1 if $recordfail" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669481
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 979003 in eglibc (Ubuntu Oneiric) "libc incorrectly detects AVX support" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/979003
<stokachu> oh, and trying to fix this wireless issue with my laptop, posted on -tech if anyone is bored :\
<stokachu> (done)
 * xnox will take stokachu's requests. As I kind of missed my uds time pilot time.
<stokachu> the libc one is mainly for infinity, though not sure if he's doing that anymore
<xnox> ack.
<stokachu> xnox: thanks :D
<stgraber> I don't think we have anyone in the foundations team that's also in the backports team? (if we do, I wouldn't mind someone reviewing my libseccomp backport ;))
<xnox> will try to do them today.
<micahg> stgraber: I'll take a look
<xnox> stgraber: well I was told, "if you follow the procedure, launchpad allows you to upload"
<stgraber> micahg: thanks
<cjwatson> xnox: for grub2, could you please make sure it goes into lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu/oneiric/grub2/oneiric rather than lp:ubuntu/oneiric/grub2
<stgraber> micahg: it's a required build-dep for my future lxc backport
<cjwatson> ?
<xnox> cjwatson: sure.
<cjwatson> Might involve extracting the patch and applying by hand
<barry> xnox: i *think* you're up next
<cjwatson> ta
<xnox> * doko and I dropped python3.2 from the archive (remaining package rebuilds)
<xnox> * help track down ubiquity's eglibc/python3.3 breakage (thanks cjwatson & doko)
<xnox>   this also affected usb-creator (bug 1076305)
<xnox> * python3 only on cd:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076305 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "plat-x86_64-linux-gnu does not define limits.h variables any more" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076305
<xnox>   - drop ndiswrapper from seeds
<xnox>   - upload python3: pyasn1, usb-creator
<stokachu> those bugs aren't mine but if you have questions just let me know and ill talk to the right people
<xnox>   - port gnome-sudoku (bug 1078720)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1078720 in gnome-games (Ubuntu) "gnome-sudoku: port to python3" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078720
<xnox>   - concerned about python-reportlab, -imaging and hence hplip not
<xnox>     being ported.
<xnox> * Merges:
<xnox> hmm....
<xnox> * doko and I dropped python3.2 from the archive (remaining package rebuilds)
<xnox> * help track down ubiquity's eglibc/python3.3 breakage (thanks cjwatson & doko)
<xnox>   this also affected usb-creator (bug 1076305)
<xnox> * python3 only on cd:
<xnox>   - drop ndiswrapper from seeds
<xnox>   - upload python3: pyasn1, usb-creator
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076305 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "plat-x86_64-linux-gnu does not define limits.h variables any more" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076305
<xnox>   - port gnome-sudoku (bug 1078720)
<xnox>   - concerned about python-reportlab, -imaging and hence hplip not
<xnox>     being ported.
<xnox> * Merges:
<xnox>   - some (my TIL) partman-*
<xnox>   - autofs, cryptsetup, btrfs-tools, shadow (stuck in proposed on bug 1077484)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077484 in shadow (Ubuntu) "[MIR] libsemanage (shadow's rdep to continue SELinux support in shadow)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077484
<xnox> * Devices FS:
<xnox>   - include nilfs modules in the initramfs, helps with root on
<xnox>     nilfs. (bug 771736)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771736 in nilfs-tools (Ubuntu) "please include nilfs2 in hook-functions" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771736
<xnox>   - tested and uploaded android-tools-fsutils for sparse image
<xnox>     generation
<xnox>   - packaged flashbench (bug 1078488) linaro's utility that helps
<barry> xnox: wasn't there a work item to see if reportlab can be dropped from task:ubuntu-desktop?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1078488 in Ubuntu "flashbench" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078488
<xnox>     discovering flash media alignment to improve filesystem alignment
<xnox>     and I/O performance on eMMC / SD / usb-sticks.
<xnox>   - pulled f2fs patches into ubuntu-kernel fork and asked ogasawara to
<xnox>     build f2fs kernels for x86 & arm (panda, ac100, nexus7) for
<xnox>     benchmarking against nilfs. Idea is to improve boot speed &
<xnox>     performance on nexus7. (not sure if I can build it as dkms module?!)
<xnox> * Ongoing design discussions around ubiquity UX concepts
<xnox> * bug fixing from ubiquity usability mini-study (3 participants)
<xnox> * Drafting blueprints / fixing up work items.
<xnox> barry: i think it was merely a request from doko at the session. not sure if it was put down as a work-item.
 * ogra_ wonders if xnox works to close to ev recently
<doko_> Streber ;-P
<barry> xnox: nod.  i'll take a look again at the spec
<xnox> ogra_: well.... ev was missing, so I had to make up.
<ogra_> heh
<xnox> doko_: ?
<doko_> - rebuilds to drop python3.2 extensions
<doko_> - split out libstdc++-dev packages in gcc
<doko_> - let g++ search in multiarch directories
<doko_> - gcc linaro merge
<doko_> - build some x32 packages
<doko_> - merges
<doko_> - run an archive scan to search for asm files (arm64 prep work for kiko)
<doko_> - fix my desktop computer, new hard disk and additional ram
<doko_> - started working on python3-imaging
<doko_> (done)
<xnox> interesting =))))
<barry> doko_, xnox thanks for the 3.2 drop!
<xnox> doko_: sell python3-imaging port to reportlab ;-)
<barry> yes, please :)
<barry> did we miss anybody who's here today?
<doko_> not yet done, I'll wait for the pillow 1.8 release
<xnox> more rdeps?
<barry> #topic bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: bugs
<barry> bdmurray: what have you got for us today?
<bdmurray> well bug 1077267 could use a better home but I'm not sure where
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077267 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Setting language localization doesn't set system-wide" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077267
<ev> soz
<xnox> ogra_: on the https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/initramfs-tools/+bugs?orderby=-id&start=0 there are a couple of failed kernel upgrades on ac100
<barry> ev: wanna give us your update?
<ogra_> xnox, yeah, i just added a fix for that today
<ogra_> xnox, sadly it isnt backportable without respinning the images
<ogra_> (for 12.10)
<barry> bdmurray: i added a comment on the bug, but don't really know of a better place for it
<xnox> also bug 1075422... I could cherry pick the patch, but then I'll be TIL.... who is merging initramfs-tools? last one was cherry pick, not merge.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1075422 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "unable to read /tmp/mkinitramfs_*" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075422
<ev> barry: sure
<ogra_> xnox, workaround for the ac100 ones is sudo apt-get install abootimg
<ev> - Further debugging on juju rabbitmq issues:
<ev>   https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/juju/2012-November/001998.html
<ev>   Clint mentioned on IRC that he thinks it's a juju issue. Started talking
<ev>   through it with Kapil, who's kindly looking into it.
<ev> - Wrote an anatomy of a crash section to the error tracker specification as
<ev>   part of https://bugs.launchpad.net/errors/+bug/1078393.
<ev> - Looking into using LXC under juju. Unfortunately this is far too slow in my
<ev>   development VM.
<ev> - Uploaded fix for bug 993056 to Raring, working on Precise and Quantal now.
<ev> - More Ubuntu shop USB key nightmares.
<ev> (done)
<ogra_> and then re-run update-initramfs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1078393 in Errors "We could do better at the "typo test"" [Undecided,New]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 993056 in activity-log-manager (Ubuntu Quantal) ""Privacy" > "Diagnostics" > "Send error reports" can't be turned on or off" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/993056
<xnox> ogra_: hmm... can we make abootimg a pre-depend on the ac100 kernel package of something?
<ogra_> xnox, the tarball installer installs it, but it didnt mark it as manually installed until today
<cjwatson> USB key> not again.  what happened this time?
<ogra_> so update-manager removes it on release upgrades
 * xnox is sad
<ogra_> todays upload fixes that, but backporting wont help unless we would respin ac100 12.10
<xnox> no thanks.
<ogra_> since the traball installer is only used during unpacking
<ogra_> and removes itself at the end
<barry> bdmurray: any other bugs to look at?
<bdmurray> yes bug 1077551 seems rather serious
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077551 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu) "Installing Machinarium removes the desktop" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077551
<bdmurray> its not really incomplete as ted has replied
 * xnox wonders if Machinarium is something that is used in manufacturing nightmare usb sticks shipped to ev.
<bdmurray> but nothing jumped out at me
<barry> cool
<barry> #topic aob
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: aob
<ev> xnox: mostly just suppliers ignoring our instructions
<xnox> ev: *sigh*
<ev> totes
<barry> fwiw, i have one desktop on raring already, though not my main dev box yet.  upgrade went w/o a hitch and everything is running smoothly so far.  i love the new workflow.
<barry> anybody have anything today?
 * ogra_ upgraded the chromebook to raring without any flaws but known plymouth issues
<barry> can the nexus7 run raring?
<stgraber> my main machine, dev machine and pandaboards are all on raring, haven't seen anything blow up yet, though I just got a new kernel that I haven't booted yet :)
<ogra_> and i didnt notice that i'm running llvmpipe for the whole weekend !
<ogra_> it *that* powerful
<cjwatson> I think I'm one branch away from being able to remove delayed copies from LP, and then probably actually being able to understand the copy code
<ogra_> *it's
<ogra_> barry, it should if you make sure none of the PPA packages get upgraded
<xnox> ogra_: can i run llvmpipe  on panda?
<barry> ogra_: gotcha, thanks
 * xnox has some compiz/ubiquity work.
<cjwatson> oh yes, I need to get round to upgrading to raring
<cjwatson> BTW I'm on leave tomorrow
<ogra_> xnox, i thik steve tried that and was very unhappy with it
<barry> cjwatson: will that have a noticable effect for packages moving raring-proposed -> raring?
<xnox> ogra_: that means it should be ok for me. as I'm not doing the whole desktop just the ubiquity.
<ogra_> xnox, slideshow with fast moving mouse pointer or so
<cjwatson> barry: no, delayed copies aren't used there
<ogra_> xnox, why use llvmpipe for ubiquity at all ? it doesnt require 3D
<xnox> *cough*
<ogra_> that sounds like artificially slow it down on purpose
<ogra_> *slowing
<cjwatson> it'll just be ~1100 lines less code for anyone trying to work out what LP is doing there
<xnox> ogra_: well..... drop unneeded packages, plus it's targeted at devices where whe know where compiz is available and fast.
<barry> cjwatson: removed code is the best code!
<ogra_> xnox, its not
<ogra_> thats why we have llvmpipe
<stgraber> xnox: well, FWIW I intend to seed metacity on all Ubuntu installs as the fallback WM when running dist-upgrades :)
<xnox> ogra_: that.
<ogra_> you'll need to keep non 3D anyway for the flavours
<cjwatson> hm, I tend to feel ubiquity should use compiz if it's available *and fast* (maybe unity_support_test?) but should retain support for metacty
<cjwatson> *metacity
<xnox> stgraber: ogra_ : i don't know. basically ubiquity-dm does not support compiz as the window-manager. who will ship what where is not my business =) they can seed it in or out if they want to.
<ogra_> cjwatson, ++
<stgraber> cjwatson: agreed
<cjwatson> after all it has support for a zillion other things; adding compiz support won't break the bank
 * xnox was only going to add compiz as an optional backend. not dropping metacity any time soon.
<ogra_> ah
<ogra_> it sounded like
<xnox> but llvmpipe in a vm is... well not the quickest =)
<ogra_> i just think metacity > llvmpipe
<xnox> anyway.... barry #endmeeting? =)
<ogra_> we shouldnt even think about iusing it if possible :)
<barry> xnox: yeah, i was enjoying the conversation :)
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 14 16:45:08 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-14-16.06.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-14-16.06.html
<barry> thanks everyone!
<xnox> thansk.
<ogra_> thanks barry !
<stgraber> thanks!
<IdleOne> ubottu: rmb is <reply> PING! beuno, cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat, head_victim, hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, lifeless, micahg, n0rman, Pendulum, PabloRubienes. Meeting time.
<ubottu> I'll remember that, IdleOne
<hggdh> I am here
<IdleOne> hggdh: was just adding !rmb to the bot, sorry about the ping
<hggdh> IdleOne: Ah, did not read actually read it... sorry
<IdleOne> hehe no problem :)
<lifeless> IdleOne: I'm not on the rmb anymore
<lifeless> IdleOne: I declined nomination at the most recent election
<IdleOne> oh
<IdleOne> I will remove you then :)
<IdleOne> lifeless: fixed.
<lifeless> IdleOne: thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-15
<czajkowski> aloha
<dholbach> hello :)
<dholbach> beuno, pleia2, around as well?
<pleia2> only for a few minutes
<Gwaihir> o/
<dholbach> Today we're meeting with the Tech Board. :)
<czajkowski> so are any of the folks on https://launchpad.net/~techboard/+members her
<czajkowski> *here
<dholbach> cjwatson, kees, mdz, soren, stgraber: anyone of you around?
<stgraber> ah right, it's today, well, I was just about to step out to get some lunch :)
<cjwatson> oh, blast - I'm on leave today, can be around I guess but I was hoping somebody else would be
<czajkowski> have just poked pitti elsewhere also
<czajkowski> stgraber: cjwatson we'll make it quick so
<dholbach> cjwatson, I think mdz mailed us and said he could probably make it
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 15 17:05:26 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<dholbach> #topic Catch up with the TB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catch up with the TB
<dholbach> How has the last cycle worked out for the TB?
<stgraber> pretty good I think, didn't have a lot of things to discuss/review/do really
<cjwatson> We've generally had a pretty quiet cycle, yes - there've been a few things we've been asked to resolve, but fairly low on controversy
<dholbach> Wow... I read most of the reports from the TB and thought that you actually had a lot on your plate.
<cjwatson> I don't know whether I view this as a success or not
<czajkowski> team reports++
<czajkowski> will the TBs workload increase with the helping of ARB now?
<cjwatson> My perception has been that most of the things that come to us already have broad agreement, and sometimes we tweak a bit to try to ensure that precedents are set sanely and that sort of thing
<dholbach> Do you have a lot of internal discussion? Or are you mostly just consulted by other teams or parties?
<stgraber> the TB only reviews the the ARB processes when they need changes, so that's not taking a lot of time as the requested policy changes usually make sense and aren't controversial
<cjwatson> e.g. the nvidia/fglrx SRUs question, which involved quite a lot of detail but it wasn't a fundamental disagreement
<cjwatson> At the moment, the TB essentially only does anything when issues are brought to us
<stgraber> mostly just consulted by other teams/parties. The only internal discussion we have are about timezones/dst it seems :)
<dholbach> Did any of your ever the feeling the TB could have a more active role or is it not of much interest right now?
<dholbach> Sorry, not active, rather proactive. I didn't mean to say you're all lazy. :)
<cjwatson> We've talked about this several times and kicked around a number of ways in which we might be more proactive, but it never seems to come to much
<cjwatson> The brainstorm review seems to have (unfortunately?) rather fallen by the wayside
<czajkowski> nods I think ye mentioned this at the last meeting up as well
<czajkowski> cjwatson: is this something the TB would like to get back involved in,or do you see it as a role the TB can't take part in any more?
<dholbach> I feel the CC and the TB are pretty much in the same boat here. One thing we tried to do was inviting teams to our meetings to ensure that things are working seamlessly for everyone.
<cjwatson> But of course several TB members are active on their own accounts anyway
<dholbach> And that has sparked some good discussions in the past.
<cjwatson> czajkowski: I tend to feel that we may have outgrown the point where a single small board can be sufficiently on top of things everywhere to take an interventionist approach
<czajkowski> dholbach: yes our catch ups are very useful
<dholbach> cjwatson, I think I agree - we also trust that people simply bring it up with the CC if they feel it's necessary
<czajkowski> +1
<cjwatson> I'd certainly encourage folks to come to us when they're doing things that are likely to set precedent elsewhere and want a broader perspective - I think that's a valuable role the TB plays
<cjwatson> But realistically we're likely to remain mainly reactive at least for a while, I think
<dholbach> Is there anything you feel should improve generally in the world of Ubuntu development? Anything you feel should change?
<cjwatson> (Speaking only for myself though)
<cjwatson> I don't think I can answer that from a TB perspective rather than from my personal perspective
<cjwatson> Maybe stgraber can have a go :)
<dholbach> Or maybe something the TB might need help with?
<dholbach> If not, that's perfectly fine - I just thought it polite and interesting to ask. :-)
<stgraber> I can't really think of anything for either questions ;)
<cjwatson> Not really - I suspect newer folks may be afraid to ask us things when they should
<cjwatson> But I don't know if that's immediately fixable :)
<czajkowski> thanks cjwatson
<czajkowski> and stgraber
<dholbach> Again we're in the same boat with the CC, I think only personal encouragement works there. :)
<cjwatson> Yeah
<dholbach> thanks a lot for your hard work
<dholbach> I'm very pleased to hear that things work out nicely for you.
<dholbach> cjwatson, enjoy the rest of your day off :)
<cjwatson> I'm being summoned though so I'm afraid I'll have to go :)
<cjwatson> Sorry, bad leave timing
<dholbach> no, it's all good :)
<dholbach> thanks for making time
<czajkowski> Thank you
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda seems very empty.
<dholbach> so maybe we just give a quick update on the CoC v2
<czajkowski> nods
<dholbach> we did two rounds of feedback for https://code.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/v2-draft and it looks like everyone is sufficiently happy with it
<dholbach> so we're in the process of getting it into LP and on the website and will announce it once it's there
<dholbach> thanks a lot to everyone who helped put the update together!
<czajkowski> yes it's nice to see the work finally coming together
<czajkowski> we have the annoucement almost done
<czajkowski> and the bug on website update filed
<czajkowski> dholbach: what is left to get it into LP ?
<dholbach> I filed a merge proposal and it's WIP
<dholbach> https://code.launchpad.net/~dholbach/launchpad/coc-2.0/+merge/133702
<dholbach> Rick Harding had a look at it already
<dholbach> so we're slowly getting there
<czajkowski> cool
<dholbach> apart from that I'm happy to say that the community related sessions from UDS were great and that everyone seems to be busy working on the work items we agreed on there
<dholbach> it's nice to see how smoothly things are running
<dholbach> hey cprofitt
<dholbach> does anyone else have anything we should discuss here in the CC meeting now?
<cprofitt> hey dholbach and everyone... sorry for being late
<dholbach> cprofitt, don't worry - looks like we wangled it :)
<Gwaihir> nothing from my side...
<cprofitt> nothing from my side as well
<dholbach> in that case, it looks like we just need to put together the minutes and update the wiki, but we can do that outside the meeting
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone for turning up!
<czajkowski> lovely
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 15 17:23:47 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-15-17.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-15-17.05.html
<czajkowski> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> thank YOU
<cprofitt> thanks dholbach
<cielak> mfisch, mhall119: ready?
<mfisch> yep
<cielak> we'll wait some more time for Mike
<mhall119> cielak: yup
<cielak> oh, cool ;)
<cielak> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 15 18:05:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is cielak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cielak> sigh
<cielak> nevermind
<mhall119> what?
<mfisch> ?
<cielak> okay, so here is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Agenda
<mfisch> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Agenda
<cielak> first thing I'd like to consult concerns what we clarified on UDS
<mhall119> I think the chair has to do that
<mfisch> ok
<cielak> that the accomplishemnts should not be level-based
<mhall119> #topic Discussing whether general direction of project applies to the whole sysytem or just community accomplishments.
<mfisch> I think that was the direction we came back to yes
<mhall119> ^ cielak try pasting that
<cielak> #topic Discussing whether general direction of project applies to the whole sysytem or just community accomplishments.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Discussing whether general direction of project applies to the whole sysytem or just community accomplishments.
<cielak> oh, cool
<mhall119> so, just to fill me in, what is the general direction that was talked about?
<cielak> okay, so my idea is that we may do the platform support level-based accomplishments, but disable this feature for community accoms
<cielak> this way third-party collections could make use of 'dificulty' fields in .accomplishment files
<cielak> but we would leave them unused for ubuntu-community-accomplishments
<mhall119> how would that field be used in the view/gallery?
<s-fox> sorry i'm late for the meeting, bad traffic
<cielak> I think that the details page might display a number of stars (1-5) for accomplishments etc, but that's more a design question
<cielak> what I mean is that it might make sense to implement support for such thing in the daemon, but since it's not cool for community accoms, this field would be not used for them
<cielak> and in case of community accoms a 'N/A' would be displayed instead of stars
<cielak> does that make sense?
<cielak> hey s-fox :)
<mhall119> and this would be enforced just be the approval process accomplishments go through?
<cielak> I am not sure how this applies to approval process
<mfisch> I want to avoid special logic for the community apps
<mfisch> accomps I mean
<mhall119> I mean, there wouldn't be something in the code that tries to stop it from being used for community accomplishments, right?
<cielak> true
<mhall119> ok
<mfisch> the accoms themselves would just leave it out
<cielak> I'm not sure if there is any special logic, just as field 'tips' is optional, so would 'difficulty' (or whatever) be
<mfisch> right
<mhall119> makes sense
<mfisch> I'm +1 on that
<mhall119> I have no objection to this
<cielak> cool, thanks :)
<cielak> I have also recently looked in how we can make daemon a DBus service, and I have two concerns about this solution
<cielak> #topic Feedback on starting the daemon as a dbus .service, causing it to be running regardless of user will.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Feedback on starting the daemon as a dbus .service, causing it to be running regardless of user will.
<mfisch> what are the concerns?
<cielak> the point is that once we install a .service, the daemon will always be started when user logs in
<mfisch> Why?
<cielak> currently we give him a choice, and automatic startup is disablable
<mhall119> no, I think it can be only on-demand
<mfisch> yes it can be on-demand
<mfisch> when the first dbus call is made, dbus will launch it
<mfisch> and honestly that is standard operating procedure for almost everything
<mfisch> lenses and scopes for example
<cielak> hm, that's odd, from my tests it was always starting regardless of whether it was requested or not
<mhall119> so the "automatically at startup" would just call the dbus service during session startup, otherwise it waits until the user loads the viewer
<mhall119> cielak: do you have the Unity trophy lens?
<cielak> I do
<mhall119> that's probably starting it
<mfisch> thats whats launching it then
<cielak> aaah! this makes a lot of sense
<mfisch> I'm not even sure we need an automatically at startup field anymore
<cielak> so I'll be back to playing around with it, then ;)
<mhall119> it only makes sense as an option if the user doesn't have the lens
<mhall119> if you have the lens, it'll need to be running from startup
<mfisch> do we get notifications if the service is running but the app is closed?
<cielak> another thing I have notices with DBus (yet this problem was present even before I tried setting up a service) is the way the daemon is closed when user session ends
<cielak> I have discussed that with mfisch few weeks ago
<mfisch> what was the issue?
<cielak> what I ended up with, is that for some reason the daemon is killed when user logs out
<mfisch> the session is over at that point
<cielak> it does not receive a SIGTERM, it's simply killed
<mhall119> does it need to do any cleanup before it exits?
<cielak> yeah, it does
<mhall119> for what?
<cielak> removing the pidfile is a must
<mfisch> it doesn't get any signal?
<mhall119> what is the pidfile used for?
<mfisch> yeah thats a good question, I bet we dont need it anymore
<cielak> otherwise, if the pidfile is left, there is no way to distinguish if the daemon is running or not
<mfisch> sure there is
<mfisch> you query it on dbus
<mhall119> if we only start it via dbus, then dbus handles that
<cielak> what if it got stuck?
<mfisch> and "autostart" is handled by a simple dbus message too, not by manually launching it
<mhall119> dbus won't launch a new process if one is running
<cielak> ah, so again it's dbus who cares about that stuff
<mfisch> I think that the service getting stuck is another issue
<mfisch> yeah, once we let dbus launch us, we should let dbus handle everything
<mhall119> yeah, so basically what jono did with cron and pidfiles, dbus does automagically
<mfisch> having us manually start or kill a process that dbus started will lead to bad news
<mfisch> yes
<mhall119> and dbus does it better ;)
<cielak> odd that despite studying dbus for a week I have not discovered it's core goodies :)
<mhall119> you could study it for a year and still find surprises ;)
<mfisch> I've been debugging a dbus signal issue all week
<cielak> okay, so the conclusion is that I need to learn DBus more before I start playing with it at all, hehe ;)
<mhall119> playing makes you learn faster
<mhall119> breaking makes you learn faster still
<mfisch> I think it's simpler than that
<mfisch> remove all the cronjob/pid file code
<mfisch> change autostart from a launch to sending a dbus message
<mfisch> that will force dbus to start it
<mfisch> then you're done I think
<cielak> mfisch: actually, no way to remove it, as twistd relies on the file not existing
<mfisch> do we still need twistd?
<cielak> ooh, porting the code out of twistd now would be a really great deal
<cielak> I guess we do
<mfisch> what else does twistd give us?
<mhall119> what is twisted used for?
<cielak> all that @deferred stuff is twisd magic
<mhall119> I don't know enough about the daemon internals to know
<cielak> and it's meant to ensure our code is not multi-threading etc.
<cielak> don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to get rid of twistd
<mhall119> make jono re-write it in go
<mfisch> this needs more investigation
<mhall119> :)
<mfisch> I vote that we investigate more and revisit this
<cielak> mfisch: +1
<mhall119> +1
<cielak> okay, so let's move to next topic on my list
<cielak> #topic Sync up with the team on the idea of expanding the .accomplishment format to support keywords/tags.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Sync up with the team on the idea of expanding the .accomplishment format to support keywords/tags.
<cielak> have you played with my latest MP for the viewer? I know mfisch did
<mfisch> cielak: I need to respond to you, will try to do that tonight
<cielak> mfisch: cool ;)
<mhall119> I haven't, no
<cielak> mhall119: basically it implements much quickler filtering + a search feature
<cielak> and I'd like to go one step further with te search feature
<mhall119> cielak: still using iconview?
<cielak> currently it looks just in the accomplsihment title, and because of that searching for 'CC' will not find community-council accoms
<cielak> mhall119: still!
<cielak> mhall119: the magic is to use GtkTreeModelFilter and never clear the main model
<cielak> my idea is that we may want to add an optional 'keywords' field in .accomplishment files
<cielak> which would list synonyms, common typos etc. for the accomplishment
<cielak> so that the search feature could check the title and the keywords
<mhall119> +1 for keywords
<cielak> that's gonna be easy to implement, yet I think all changes to .accomplishments format are worth discussing :)
<mfisch> +1 too for keywords
<cielak> awesome, thanks for your feedback ;)
<mfisch> lets file bugs to go back and add keywords to existing accomps too
<cielak> exactly, I guess this is a cool assignment for a new contributor
<mhall119> tag the bugs with "bitesize"
<cielak> quite easy, and helps to get familiar with accoms structure
<mhall119> having bitesize bugs makes it easy to point new contributors to a list of things they can do
<cielak> and since we are speaking about new contributors...
<cielak> #topic Looking for opportunities for new contributors and discussing how we should deal with suggesting work to them.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Looking for opportunities for new contributors and discussing how we should deal with suggesting work to them.
<mfisch> so i was thinking some about this
<cielak> there is at least 3 people who are willing to contribute
<mfisch> and the current process of doing a MP and what-not may be causing people to not contribute
<cielak> some of them are not interested in comtributing accoms, and I think they are very welcome to do some hacking in the viewer etc.
<mfisch> ah I was thinking of accomps writers
<cielak> mfisch: so you have ideas on how we can improve accomps writers experience?
<mfisch> no great ideas, but I wonder if the LP merge process is stopping people
<mhall119> so in my experience, this is what I'd recommend:
<mfisch> perhaps the script writing is also a problem
<s-fox> mfisch,  the merge thing was akward to learn, but not that difficult once you get your head around it
<s-fox> that is my experience anyway :)
<mhall119> 1) Give a list of specific targets (like adding keywords to existing accoms)
<mhall119> 2) Give detailed step-by-step instructions for how to do it
<cielak> on the other hand, there was noone who contacted us in terms of not being able to send their contribution
<mhall119> 3) Give detailed step-by-step instructions for how to submit it (bzr commit, bzr push, create an MP, etc)
<mhall119> 4) Blog about it (get jono to promote your blog post)
<mhall119> 5) Mosty importantly, publicaly thank the people who do contribute, seeing others get praise motivates people to get involved too
<mfisch> I'd like a blog post to include some specific ideas for ones people can write
<mfisch> I know we have a todo list somewhere
<cielak> mhall119: agreed, except for the blog part this is what I usually do
<mfisch> I guess that's what mhall119 said in 1)
<cielak> mfisch: I have some more bitesize bugs to fill in
<mhall119> http://mhall119.com/2012/02/contributing-to-unity-for-non-developers-keywords/ is an example you can look at, I got a lot of new contributors adding keywords to .desktop files with that
<cielak> where is ours todo list so that I can add this ideas there?
<cielak> mhall119: ooh, cool guide, we surely need something like that
<mhall119> cielak: write one ;)
<mfisch> lets take a todo for that
<cielak> I surely will
<mfisch> I can help write it, just worried about over-committing to stuff right now
<mfisch> nexus7 is still crazy
<mhall119> mfisch: fix the primary-mouse-button-getting-stuck bug :P
<cielak> If I recall correctly, the accoms-writing guide had detailed instructions on how to use bzr to submit changes
<cielak> they may need refreshing, though
<cielak> any more ideas on what simple activities we may assign to newcommers?
<cielak> also, smartboyhw wanted to contribute new accoms, but we're running out of reasonable ideas
<mhall119> nope, just make sure you always give an over-abundance of information.  People don't get discouraged by being told what they already know, but they will get discouraged if they're not told something they do need to know
<cielak> yeah, totally :)
<mfisch> there's got to me hundreds of ideas for desktop
<mfisch> install ubuntu on ARM is one I'm a fan of
<mhall119> +1 for desktop, just get people to go through the apps on their Launcher and think of accomplishments they can write for each
<cielak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/AccomplishmentIdeas/LocalAccomplishments
<cielak> this may be worth refreshing too
<mhall119> One benefit of the "write something for an app on your launcher" is that they will be targetting an app they commonly use
<mfisch> cielak: lets take an action to update that wiki page with ideas
<mhall119> someone might have no interest in deja dup or gwibber, but if they have Tomboy notes stuck to their launcher, they would probably know what kind of accomplishments to write for that
<cielak> agreed
<mfisch> "Tomboy didn't erase my notes for 3 months"
<mhall119> also, we talked at UDS about getting new icon images for people to use, that would be a good way for artists to get involved
<mhall119> mfisch: oh come on now
<mhall119> we should make them something possible
<mfisch> lol
<cielak> I guess Martin took the artwork work item
 * mhall119 happens to love Tomboy and hasn't lost anything in years
<mhall119> cielak: yeah, but there are more artists than just him
<cielak> sure :)
<cielak> I thought it might be appropriate to contact him and suggest he lead the artwork update
<mhall119> is there a website other than the wiki for the Accomplishments project?
<cielak> it may be easier for him to reach for other artists and cooperate
<cielak> nope
<cielak> except for trophies.ubuntu.com
<mhall119> if he has time, he took several work items this UDS
<cielak> anyway, contacting him would be fair
<mhall119> yeah, maybe he could write a blog calling for more artist contributors
<cielak> indeed
<s-fox> you know i could ask the arty types on the ubuntu forums for help if you want.
<mhall119> s-fox: that's a good idea too
<mhall119> we might want a list of "wanted" images
<s-fox> i mean they are great for producing icons for developers
<mhall119> I'm thinking we could use a Ribbon, a medal, a certificate, etc
<mhall119> maybe a couple variations on the current trophy image
<s-fox> I know what i'd like to see, have the ask ubuntu icons match what they are on the website
<mhall119> +1
<cielak> +1!
<mhall119> all of that should go into a call for artist contributors, so they have a list of things they know we want
<mhall119> for the askubuntu ones, someone would need to check on copyright license for them
<mhall119> mfisch: ^^
<mfisch> ok
<mhall119> thanks
<mfisch> we can ask jorge
<mhall119> ok, I can do that
<s-fox> even if we can't use those exact icons it would be good to have something like a ribbon?
<mhall119> yeah
<mhall119> also, let's ask for these in SVG, so we can easily re-color them, or add to them, etc
<mfisch> +1
<cielak> svg is a must
<cielak> we might want to change icon size one day
<cielak> + it is different in the lens
<s-fox> i thought svg was just for vectors?  wouldn't we want something like a psd or whatever gimp uses?
<mfisch> we can render svg though
<s-fox> ahh :)
<mhall119> svg would be just as good, just edit it in Inkscape
<cielak> indeed ;)
<cielak> with 3 minutes left I should ask if anyone has something else to discuss?
<cielak> s-fox, any progress on forum accomplishments?
<s-fox> not touched it cielak , it looks like the ubuntu forums might actually be getting the upgrade soon so the html might change
<cielak> ooh
<cielak> ideally the accoms would be html-independent
<cielak> I am not sure how much this is doable, though
<s-fox> trying to get an idea as to when it will happen. no point spending time on making it work when the structure of the page might change
<cielak> true
<s-fox> especially if it looks like it might come in before the new year
<mfisch> speaking of that, cielak I'm going to wait on pep8 until your search stuff is done
<s-fox> i am looking forward to doing more with regex though! :D
<cielak> then again, the search stuff is waiting for your review ;) so whenever you'll have some spare time
<mhall119> s-fox: wasn't there a forums API we were going to get?
<cielak> mhall119: haha!
<cielak> mhall119: let me find you the link to the ticket
<s-fox> mhall119,  we were met with silence. twice i believe
<mhall119> ah, ok
<mhall119> nvm then
<cielak> mhall119: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=19790
<s-fox> jono even poked them for a response
<cielak> we can't wait endlessly, so we'll use a workaround
<mhall119> ok
<cielak> okay, anyone has something more to discuss?
<s-fox> maybe channel promotion ?
<cielak> what do you mean?
<s-fox> mind you , i suppose that would come with getting more people involved with the project anyway
<cielak> likely ;)
<cielak> okay, so thanks everyone for coming and your feedback, have a nice day!
<cielak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 15 19:04:57 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-15-18.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-15-18.05.html
<mfisch> thanks cielak
<mhall119> thanks cielak
<cjohnston> Zilvador: are you here
<Zilvador> cjohnston, Yes I am
<s-fox> ping Zilvador :)
<Zilvador> pong s-fox :)
<s-fox> hi, we just wanted to check you were around since you are only candidate
<s-fox> lol
<Zilvador> I see
<cjohnston> Zilvador: will be another minute or two
<Zilvador> No problem
<cjohnston> waiting on the last person to get home
<s-fox> we're all on 3g apparently. haha
<Zilvador> So high-tech :)
<s-fox> o/ PabloRubianes
<PabloRubianes> hi s-fox
<s-fox> PabloRubianes,  you at home now?
<PabloRubianes> yes
<cjohnston> PabloRubianes: are you able to chair?
<s-fox> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 15 22:07:59 2012 UTC.  The chair is s-fox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<s-fox> Mwhahaa
<s-fox> #voters s-fox cjohnston PabloRubianes micahg
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes cjohnston micahg s-fox
<s-fox> #topic Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting 22:00 UTC
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting 22:00 UTC
<s-fox> #subtopic Zilvador's application
<s-fox> *sigh*
<s-fox> #topic Zilvador application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Zilvador application
<s-fox> Zilvador,  can you please introduce yourself?
<Zilvador> Indeed
<Zilvador> I am a 26 year old Dane
<Zilvador> I am a computer science post grad student who have been using Ubuntu as a main OS since 2007
<Zilvador> I have been actually contributing since 2010
<Zilvador> When I became a member of the Danish translation team on Launchpad
<Zilvador> I was initially very active in translating the Ubuntu Manual to Danish...and was involved in other translation projects as well
<Zilvador> Since then I have also been active in bug management on Launchpad...mainly finding duplicates as well as also doing my best to report bugs on my own and offer all information possible
<Zilvador> *necessary
<s-fox> Nice work :)  Is anyone from the danish translation team here to support your application?
<Zilvador> No, I have not asked any to be here today :)
<Zilvador> Even though I did back in 2010 work quite a lot together with the members of the list, my studies took a lot of my time later. They usually work with po files, but I found it more liberating to work directly in Launchpad
<PabloRubianes> Zilvador: are you involve in the Danish LoCo team?
<s-fox> it is just that your wiki doesn't have any testimonials, sort of important thing we look for.  what about your loco team, anyone here to support you ?
<Zilvador> I am a member, but have not had the possibility to join an actual event yet. Unfortunately I live in a far end of my country
<Zilvador> I have not asked any one to be here today, no.
<Zilvador> But if testemonials are important, I can ask key persons to add some :)
<s-fox> If you could that would be super great :)
<s-fox> Zilvador,  i have been looking at your wiki page and you say you want to get involved with writing code?  perhaps you could get involved with a small project?
<Zilvador> Yes, I have in fact been considering that.
<s-fox> Zilvador,  i know a project with some nice friendly folks that need a bit of help if you are interested?  mostly python
<Zilvador> Indeed I am :)
<s-fox> Zilvador,  okay, cool.  after the meeting join #ubuntu-accomplshments and speak to myself or cielak :)
<s-fox> Zilvador,  for the next meeting do you think you could get the testimonials?
<Zilvador> I will talk to people. I guess the best would be to add me to the agenda when I believe to have enough.
<s-fox> okay, thanks.  i am really sorry we can't do the vote tonight, but next time it should be a lot easier :)
<cjohnston> Zilvador: the next meeting will probably be next month, so you have some time prior to it to find some.
<Zilvador> Don't worry :). I was first of all interested in knowing what you were looking for.
<Zilvador> Thank you. Sounds good.
<cjohnston> Zilvador: I guess maybe we need to work on getting our docs better.. I'll try to ping you in the next couple of days and see if I can get some feedback from you on the instructions for how to apply and try to make them more clear.
<s-fox> Alright, i think that is it :)
<Zilvador> cjohnston, I would appreciate any help. Thank you.
<s-fox> thanks for coming people
<cjohnston> thanks Zilvador!
<s-fox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 15 22:23:51 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-15-22.07.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-15-22.07.html
<cjohnston> thanks s-fox PabloRubianes and micahg also
<PabloRubianes> thanks you cjohnston
<IdleOne> !rmb
<ubottu> PING! beuno, cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat, head_victim, hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg, n0rman, Pendulum, PabloRubienes. Meeting time.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-16
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 16 16:00:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<dholbach> Welcome everybody to the Ubuntu on Nexus7 meeting!
<mfisch> hello
<vanhoof> o/
<dholbach> Quick show of hands - who do we all have here for the meeting? :)
<ogra-cb> moo
<MagicFab> it's been some time since I was here last! o/
<mfisch> me
 * barry waves
 * sforshee waves
<ogra-cb> MagicFab, !
<ssweeny> o/
<achiang> hi
 * jodh waves
 * barry might have to exit early though
<feasty> o/
<yofel__> o/
<victorp> \o
<victorp> o/
<MagicFab> ogra-cb, :)
<obounaim> Hello
<Riddell> hi
<victorp> \o/
<vanhoof> victorp: dancing? :)
<cwayne> o/
<victorp> vanhoof, I am
<victorp> nexus7-style!
<vanhoof> /o/
<dholbach> great to see so many people turned up here! :-)
<dholbach> As this is the first meeting of the kind, I thought we'd start with a quick round of introductions of all the people who put some work into getting Ubuntu to work on the Nexus7
<dholbach> #topic Introductions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Introductions
<dholbach> Can everyone who worked on this give a quick introduction of themselves? :)
 * ogra-cb is oliver grawert and works on image creation ... 
<achiang> ogra-cb: mfisch janimo cwayne ssweeny don't be shy
<ogra-cb> if you have issues with the bootloader or the images, i'm the guy to nag
 * cwayne is chris wayne, initially worked on documenting installing and known issues, have since been working on answering questions and triaging bugs
 * ssweeny is Scott Sweeny, working on general bug fixes and a juju charm to help people get an arm development environment set up
<ogra-cb> (and no, i dont plan to work on dual booting)
 * vanhoof is Chris Van Hoof, helped with the one-click installer, and massive amounts of flashing my devices ;)
<janimo> I worked on packaging and maintaining the kernel tree before handing it over to the ubuntu kernel team very recently
 * achiang is alex chiang, i help clear obstacles for the team and generally sit back and watch in amazement at how good they are
 * mfisch is Matt Fischer worked on the initial image.  Currently doing bug fixes, bug triage, and investigating benchmarking tools
 * victorp victor palau - mainly looking at performance testing
<janimo> also, misc bugfixes, will work on sensors most likely
<kyleN_> kyleN is Kyle Nitzsche. flashed, installer, wiki, etc.
<achiang> i think that's the core team. we of course have many other people both in canonical and the community who help as well
<ogra-cb> and there is our sound magican diwic
<diwic> hi
<dholbach> awesome - I think it's important to put names to faces and everything - so thanks everyone :)
<ogra-cb> do we have to bring a photo next week then ?
<victorp> +1^
<dholbach> that might work, yes :)
<ogra-cb> :)
<dholbach> we have many people who joined into the meeting and I thought it'd be good if we just open the floor for all questions you might have about Ubuntu on the Nexus7 - the experts are all here :)
<dholbach> #topic Questions and Answers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Questions and Answers
<dholbach> please don't be shy - just ask :)
<gema> o/
<barry> o/
<MagicFab> Hi, Fabian Rodriguez here - http://ubuntu.magicfab.ca I have one
<dholbach> gema, please :)
<gema> we are looking into doing power consumption testing on the lab, I wonder if you guys have figured out how to go about that already
<gema> fully automated, of course :)
 * MagicFab stands in line ;)
<janimo> gema, smagoun hacked a device to some meters already I think
<obounaim> Are there any plans to port Ubuntu to other devices?
<achiang> that is on our plan but i think we are still trying to figure out a way to do so, and also engage the community
<victorp> s/smagoun/sconklin
<janimo> victorp, thanks
<ogra-cb> cking might also have some insight from the kernel side about what you can do in software
<achiang> for next week, we are going to focus on memory benchmarking, but power consumption is up quickly after that
<gema> yep, I am in contact with them already, so no other insights? :D
<achiang> one issue we will have is that we do not plan on recommending people rip apart their machines and hooking up probes
<victorp> gema - I think the main concern is that measuring overall power usage is not as useful as knowing what the individual components consume
<achiang> so we will focus on *relative* measurements
<janimo> gema, apart from the fact that power savings in userland tested on x86 likely benefit the nexus too
<achiang> hopefully the community can help us gather a lot of data
<gema> victorp, janimo ack
<dholbach> achiang, but that will be announced separately, right?
<achiang> and my team is going to release a testing framework that enables the community to help us collect this data
<victorp> gema, I would also suggest to challange conventional wisdom
<dholbach> cool
<achiang> dholbach: yes, announced separately
<cking> unfortunately we  need some accurate measurements, so we need some H/W  probes do this
<ogra-cb> cking, but only once as reference
<victorp> I ran the same test twice, the second time I reduce the brightness of screen > 50% and it made little difference
<victorp> I was expecting it to make bigger...
<ijuz> does the Nexus7 has an internal way to measure the power usage?
<MagicFab> I'd like to do some testing and invite other current Android users to do that. However they (and I) use the N7 as their primary device, testing other ROMs after backing up with ClockWork recovery, same to restore. How can we do that? Current instructions assume the device is dedicated to testing Ubuntu and recovery does a *factory* restore - not good to get more geeky testers, at least not the many already with CyanogenMod etc.
<MagicFab> My question was posted on Ask Ubuntu: I posted this on Ask Ubuntu: http://askubuntu.com/questions/216977/how-can-i-install-ubuntu-on-my-nexus-7-while-being-able-to-recover-from-an-nandr
 * cking has calibrated the battery, it is effectively useless for accurate power benchmarking
<mfisch> MagicFab: I answered you on AskUbuntu I think
 * barry has an offer and a question
<cjwatson> I was talking with ogra_ earlier today about a mad idea I had of adapting Wubi to the Nexus 7
<dholbach> Can folks with questions just message me their question?
<MagicFab> mfisch, an official answer from Canonical, yes, I am expecting a bit different outcome here.
<cjwatson> Though it depends on some other stuff in progress
<dholbach> barry, obounaim: you had questions from what I could see.
<ogra-cb> yeah, i'll keep an eye on it and it will also need some testing first
<obounaim> yes
<victorp> cjwatson,  That is a mad idea
<cjwatson> (This would in theory avoid having to disturb Android at all in order to test Ubuntu - but I don't know, it's just a mad idea and it may be more trouble than it's worth)
<cjwatson> (Well, not quite, you'd have to interpose a boot loader)
<ogra-cb> if it would work it would be cool though
<barry> dholbach: yes.  first my offer: i've heard that folks are having some problems w/ python applications on the nexus7.  onboard came up at uds-r, although it seems to be working fine for me.  please, if you're having problems with python on the nexus7, contact me and i will work with you.  or file bugs and assign me and i will take a look.  i can help!
<ogra-cb> and avoid a lot of trouble we have with arm bootloaders post installation
<achiang> \m/ thanks barry !
<victorp> barry - what is your LP id?
<barry> victorp: barry (so creative :)
<dholbach> victorp, https://launchpad.net/~barry/
<victorp> lol
<achiang> everyone assign bugs to barry
<barry> did i say 'barry'?  i mean jodh
<dholbach> haha
<cjwatson> barry: The comments I'd heard were generally that it was just sluggish
<ogra-cb> barry, ddi zou trz it with the default ubuntu theme ?
<ogra-cb> *try
<barry> ogra-cb: try what?  i basically just installed the nexus7 image and began playing
<ogra-cb> barry, play with the different onboard themes in its settings, we dont use the ubuntu default because it was unusable slow
<victorp> barry,  on board
<ssweeny> there is an onboard snapshot with some performance improvements which i will be uploading to the nexus 7 ppa today
<janimo> any other questions? :) barry you had one
<achiang> ogra-cb: the upstream onboard devs have a proposed fix for performance w/default theme, we are going to test it soon
<ogra-cb> cool !
<dholbach> ok, have we talked about the power question sufficiently? I have 4 more questions lined up. (everyone else please message me their questions)
<achiang> let's get to barry's question
<dholbach> <barry> my question is about progress on making the desktop drivable by touch.  maybe my fingers are too fat but i can't seem to operate the desktop at all
<barry> awesome, i will be happy to test it
<cjwatson> bug 1075470
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1075470 in ubuntu-nexus7 "Window titlebar buttons are unusably small for tablets/touchscreens and don't scale with the fonts/titlebar" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075470
 * barry subscribes
<dholbach> barry, all set? :)
<achiang> barry: specifically not part of our plan for this cycle
<barry> achiang: nod
<ogra-cb> but generally a bug that should be fixed (teh above one)
<barry> it *is* nice to ssh into though :)
<ogra-cb> it affects everything, not just tablets :)
 * cwayne has taken to vnc'ing into his tablet
<achiang> barry: i would say that fixing touch in parts of the unity stack would be welcome, because it is still relevant on touch-screen laptops too
<victorp> ogra-cb I think touch needs a holistic approach rather than fixing one bug at the time
<victorp> much more that we can cover in the project
<achiang> so that would be a great area for motivated community members to dive in
<mfisch> there are dozens of unimplemented or non-functional gestures
<achiang> learning about our opentouch framework
<victorp> and the plan is for all of that to be done by 14.04
<ogra-cb> victorp, that bug above breaks on x86 desktop machines as well (bottom of chars gets cut off if you pick the laargest fontsize)
<barry> oh, if i might one other quick question: can the nexus7 be run in multi-user mode?
<achiang> mfisch: ^^
<ogra-cb> barry, sure
<ogra-cb> just create users
<victorp> ogra-cb, agreed , is not arch specific
<barry> ogra-cb: beautiful
 * victorp not saying the bug is not valid
<achiang> barry: you just have to turn off lightdm autologin
<mfisch> barry: yes, you probably also need to disable autologin
<barry> yep
<ogra-cb> barry, and disable autologin
<dholbach> perfect
<diwic> I guess that would require a keyboard, or does the onboard show up in lightdm/unity-greeter?
<ogra-cb> it is in the panel
<diwic> an OTG keyboard
<mfisch> diwic: I think it's loadable
<diwic> excellent
<dholbach> <MagicFab> Why is this project ignoring technical, advanced users that already use/test other ROMs? "Legal concerns" cited are a deal breaker. Ignoring as in CyanogenMod has a huge community and no mention on how to flash Ubuntu the usual, safe, roll-back available way.
<kyleN_> edit /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
<barry> i have run it with the little usb hub and keyboard/mouse.  it works great
<victorp> MagicFab, we welcome people to contribute other boot scenarios to the project
<dholbach> MagicFab adds: if at least there has been testing where recovery is kept and I can rollback to on of my backups, I'd feel safer doing it.
<victorp> canonical staff has clear objectives to scratch :)
<kyleN_> victorp has itchy objectives
<victorp> I do I do
<dholbach> MagicFab, does that answer your question? Do you have any follow-up about it?
<MagicFab> victorp, no, Canonical is citing legal concerns not to tackle the huge CyanogenMod / others community of hackers.
<mfisch> barry: in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf you need to comment out this line to disable autologin: autologin-user=ubuntu
<dholbach> if it's generally possible, we could add it as a TODO item or a FAQ item to the wiki
<janimo> MagicFab, that was so that our installer does not contain clockworkmod and similar but it can still be flashed to the recovery partition
<MagicFab> Not really, it's worse. It means to me it's up to "someone" in the community to take some legal risk that is not clear (implied in the Ask Ubuntu reply).
<victorp> MagicFab, we focused on a path that will allow us to distribute roms and to focus on the objective to trim the ubuntu desktop to be efficient on an arm device
<barry> mfisch: thanks!
<mfisch> MagicFab: personally I dont think there's a legal risk to someone in the community doing it
<barry> mfisch: btw, this seems to me to be a huge benefit of ubuntu on tablets as opposed to certain other proprietary platforms
<dholbach> MagicFab, can you provide a link to the askubuntu question - maybe somebody can look into clarifying the answer
<victorp> MagicFab,  If other people want to set up alternative installs, we are hoping all the raring packages are available soon
<mfisch> MagicFab: I think the issue was that canonical cannot ship or support tools like CWM
<MagicFab> victorp, I understand that.
<achiang> MagicFab: if you want to write instructions on how to use CWM, cyanogen, nandroid, etc. i am sure we can help you get publicity for it
<vanhoof> MagicFab: if you are familiary with CWM and nandroid (which it appears you are), its certainly do-able, but not something we're pursuing/endorsing in our installation method
<MagicFab> mfisch, then why would you answer that? http://askubuntu.com/a/217146/4601
<mfisch> dholbach: here is the U-A question: http://askubuntu.com/questions/216977/how-can-i-install-ubuntu-on-my-nexus-7-while-being-able-to-recover-from-an-nandr/217146#217146
 * MagicFab confused
<ogra-cb> note that currently the bootloader handling (and thus kernel updating etc) is not very flexible
<mfisch> MagicFab: Canonical, as a company, is not going to ship or support CWM, if the community wants to write up directions, that's fine
<ogra-cb> so the installation is required to be exactly the way the ubuntu image sets it up
<ogra-cb> even if you use CWM
<MagicFab> vanhoof, to the extent I risk bricking my only, personal device, no, I am not willing to spend time on that.
<mfisch> MagicFab: I upvoted your comment even
<MagicFab> ogra-cb, vanhoof, ok, those bits are useful.
<achiang> MagicFab: for the people that are able and willing to help now, we welcome their support. if you are not willing/able, we understand
<ogra-cb> i'm happy to answer any implementation details in #ubuntu-arm at any time
<achiang> we don't expect everyone to take on the risk
<victorp> another question?
<dholbach> <obounaim> Are there any plans to bring Ubuntu on other devices?
<MagicFab> achiang, I know - it was just a surprise being used to *any* other alternative ROM brought to the Android community using the standard "flash this zip, don'tlike it, reflash /recover". Guess I'll wait.
<achiang> no plans to bring Ubuntu to other devices. we picked a good reference platform and now we want everyone to rally around it
<ogra-cb> MagicFab, point is that we are not targeting the android community
<achiang> MagicFab: this is *not* another alternative ROM and this is Ubuntu, not android.
<ogra-cb> but the ubuntu one
<mfisch> obounaim: if you'd like to work on a port we'd all be happy to help though in #ubuntu-arm
<MagicFab> ogra-cb, ok, that's not the tone of the blog posts, etc. I get it now.
<ogra-cb> obounaim, some community people seem to work on chromebook support
<MagicFab> achiang, of course :) But you're asking Android users to test on their device. I expected being able to get back to its current state. NP, I see how I confused this.
<achiang> MagicFab: happy to discuss in #ubuntu-arm after this meeting. :)
<ogra-cb> MagicFab, well, most if not all blog posts say that we want to make the platform fit for small devices ... and platform here means mostly the plumbing layer
<achiang> let's move on
<dholbach> The next question seems to be a pressing one. cjwatson, Riddell and victorp asked the same question in different forms: <victorp> I would also like to ask about when raring images will be available and how are we doing with triaging/assigning bugs
<diwic> obounaim, this is assuming you're talking about tablets. We have a lot of x86 desktops and laptops certified and pre-installed :-) ubuntu.com/certification, and ogra-cb can fill in on other ARM projects
<dholbach> <cjwatson> question: How far are we from being able to run straight raring? I'm running mostly raring now, but still have some bits from the PPA
<MagicFab> mfisch, I am not paid for this. I am willing to test for free but my current involvement is more as a power-user/tester.
<dholbach> <Riddell> question: what's the state of daily image builds?
<ogra-cb> no focus on any desktop funtionality, endusers or android hackers atm
<MagicFab> dholbach, all, tx.
<dholbach> thanks MagicFab
<kyleN_> back up anroid > install U fro n7 > test > reset android > restore
<mfisch> dholbach et al: Raring is coming soon
<achiang> so, currently we have a few outstanding issues
<mfisch> we're blocked on a Nux problem currently
<cjwatson> FWIW I pinned the PPA and upgraded rather than worrying about daily builds
<achiang> the nux fix should land today
<cwayne> mfisch: the old drop shadow one?
<achiang> once the nux fix lands, it will be safe for people to dist-upgrade to raring
<mfisch> cwayne: no, thats not a blocker
<ogra-cb> Riddell, nonexistent until IS has set up a new builder machine for arm images
<achiang> that is different from daily images
<achiang> daily images are blocked on new hardware
<cwayne> oh right, the transparency one, duh
<cjwatson> Yeah, I know about the daily builds issue, since it affects all ARM images
<ogra-cb> cjohnston, might probablz help to addd something abotu that to the wiki
<dholbach> achiang, so apart from nux, everything in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-nexus7/+archive/ppa is in raring? do we have a bug number for the nux problem?
<ogra-cb> err cjwatson
<ogra-cb> silly tab completion
<cjwatson> dholbach: Right, that's what I was getting at
<mfisch> I think this is the nux bug: #1065638 Unity panels don't display visuals
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1065638 in ubuntu-nexus7 "Unity panels don't display visuals" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1065638
<ogra-cb> not everything, the settings arent yet (but will come soon)
<cjwatson> There are definitely still packages in the PPA that are not in raring
<ogra-cb> and i'm not sure jabout the brcm-patchram stuff
<achiang> dholbach: but we do not need to push the PPA packages into raring. the next interim phase will be: 1) install from existing installer 2) dist-upgrade to raring
<ogra-cb> as it is clearly the wrong approach for the distro
<kyleN_> action for someone to push ppa pkgs to R?
<mfisch> victorp: regarding bug triage, we've done an excellent job, I think, of getting stuff upstreamed and then diving back into some bugs to gather more info.  Some of the upstream bugs unfortunately are not getting much attention
<achiang> the final phase will be to push all the PPA bits into raring, and then we'll have daily images
<mfisch> victorp: specifically I'd love to have some unity help
<victorp> mfisch, I see lots of bugs that are unassigned can we fix that?
<victorp> like Ubuntu bugs
<mfisch> victorp: but also something interesting is that say, 80-90% of our bugs are not specific to the N7
<mfisch> victorp: I'd love to get people assigned, but how would I do that?  I'm not sure who could help (for example) with Unity bugs
<dholbach> (Everyone who's interested and has more questions, please message me and I'll queue them up. Please don't be shy. :-))
<vanhoof> ogra-cb: I'll take the patchram action
<ogra-cb> vanhoof, that will likely need patches to bluez to be done right
<vanhoof> ogra-cb: its been something that needs to be sorted out across the board
<ogra-cb> or even the kernel
<ogra-cb> iirc there are some patches that add kernel support for patchram already but not finished
<cjwatson> achiang: one certainly can already do that, just with apt pinning
<vanhoof> ogra-cb: theres been some preliminary work already which hit the kernel-team lists for quantal and precise a few weeks back
<achiang> dholbach: summary is, we hope people can be on raring as soon as the nux fix lands. we will send out an announcement when it is safe to do so, hopefully early next week, say tuesday
<vanhoof> ogra-cb: yup
<ogra-cb> the current package rather follows a broken approach
<dholbach> achiang, perfect
<achiang> cjwatson: yeah, but not everyone is good at/competent with apt-pinning
<mfisch> achiang: is the raring plan just to ask people to change sources and upgrade?
<cjwatson> Yeah, just saying, it's a kind of stage 0
<achiang> mfisch: yes, until we can produce dailies
<dholbach> In terms of getting bugs looked at - would it help to also send a quick summary of blocker bugs to one of the mailing lists?
<ogra-cb> i would say latest mid next week we should have dailies
<cjwatson> $ cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/ubuntu-nexus7-ppa
<cjwatson> Package: *
<cjwatson> Pin: release o=LP-PPA-ubuntu-nexus7
<cjwatson> Pin-Priority: 600
<achiang> cjwatson: can you post your pinning snippet? we could put it in the FAQ
<cjwatson> FWIW
<achiang> psychic! :)
<victorp> mfisch lets talk about that we need to find someone in desktop that can drive it
<mfisch> victorp: great
<ogra-cb> can someone take an action to put the pinning stuff above on the wiki for the brave ones
<dholbach> can do
<achiang> dholbach: i think we truly only have 1 blocker. but i would be happy to send a weekly "top X bugs" to ubuntu-devel or wherever is appropriate
<mfisch> dholbach: sure, we could do that, right now the only major blocker besides nux is that stuck button1 issue.
<mfisch> I'd love to do that actually if we think it will generate interest
<dholbach> achiang, that'd be awesome
<vanhoof> achiang: I can drive a report like that
<achiang> ok, consider us signed up for it
<dholbach> vanhoof, mfisch: maybe you'll find https://code.launchpad.net/~dholbach/+junk/nexus7-report interesting - it's something I quickly put together
<dholbach> fantastic
<vanhoof> preferences on where to send, ubuntu-devel@ work for everyone?
<dholbach> yes, that should be good
<achiang> also, someone from my team will also take the action to post the apt-pinning recipe
<dholbach> achiang, I was going to do it, but I won't object ;-)
 * mfisch branches dholbach's code
 * achiang adds dholbach to my team, and considers the action taken care of ;)
<dholbach> haha
<dholbach> :-)
<mfisch> so I'd like the report to be more than a buglist, and I claim that cwayne and I have the most knowledge of bug status
<vanhoof> dholbach: thanks for the pointer
<mfisch> list + some info/status/progress
<cwayne> mfisch: +1
<achiang> vanhoof: please work w/mfisch and cwayne on the report
<vanhoof> +1
<vanhoof> mfisch: cwayne: ill show you what I had in mind and we can go from there
<kyleN_> ./report (per dholbach branch)
<cwayne> vanhoof: +1
<dholbach> Riddell, victorp, cjwatson: did your questions get sufficiently answered?
<cjwatson> Yes
<Riddell> yes
<dholbach> shall we do a quick bug review after the questions?
<victorp> yes
<dholbach> cool
<kyleN_> dholbach, report output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1363002/
<dholbach> so I have one question from jcastro_ - he wanted to know if we're moving the FAQ to Ask Ubuntu
<dholbach> (If any of you have more questions, please message me. The queue is empty right now.)
<dholbach> cwayne, you might know about the AskUbuntu FAQ situation
<cwayne> dholbach: jcastro_: I'd like to eventually move it over.  Some of the questions may need to be combined or added to..
<cwayne> jcastro_: Can I ask a question and answer it myself?  How can I get it pinned to the FAQ tab?
<kyleN_> cwayne, for now, maybe add intro to wiki FAQ saying from now on use ask ubuntu (and how)
<cwayne> kyleN_: well theres nowehere else to ask questions anyway :P
<cwayne> all of the ?'s in the FAQ were from that one session
<achiang> dholbach: jcastro_: yes, as soon as we clean up the FAQ we will definitely move it to AskUbuntu. at the moment, we're just trying to unbury ourselves from incoming bugs
<achiang> so that would be a good place for folks to help
<dholbach> This seems to be all the questions we had - you can of course all ask more questions and get in touch with the team in #ubuntu-arm and get involved there. :-)
<achiang> help us get the incoming bugs linked against the proper upstreams (as many of them are not specific to the nexus7 at all) would be a huge help
<mfisch> One of the more time consuming parts of looking at our bugs is trying the issues on other devices and looking at upstream
<mfisch> and then duping back
<dholbach> This nicely leads us to our next topic... :)
<dholbach> #topic Bug review: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug review: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7
<achiang> if you see an new bug, e.g., you could try to reproduce on your x86 laptop
<jcastro_> cwayne: you can absolutely ask and answer your own, the FAQ part is autogenerated based on votes/traffic, and people linking to it
<achiang> in many cases, you will see the same issue
<cwayne> jcastro_: but I can't trick it to ensure it goes in FAQ?
<cwayne> well i guess if it doesn't get traffic, it's not really frequently asked is it :P
<jcastro_> right
 * cwayne takes an action to begin the transfer to AU today
<jcastro_> cwayne: if everyone on the team votes on stuff accordingly it'll work itself out
<mfisch> another triage note: If you find a N7 bug that has an older duplicate in another project, please dupe the new bug, then go to the older bug and mark as affecting N7.  Or just find me, achiang, and cwayne and we can help
<dholbach> awesome
<dholbach> victorp, you wanted to talk some more about bugs?
<victorp> dholbach, nope I am fine
<victorp> mfisch answered my question
<cwayne> if anyone is planning on logging bugs, this may help explain what we're looking for: http://chrismwayne.com/?p=94
<cwayne> </shamelessplug>
<dholbach> oh, I thought somebody wanted to do a review of the open bugs, blockers, status of assigned bugs and so on?
<mfisch> dholbach: I have a topic real quick
<dholbach> sure
<victorp> cwayne, that would be good to be *the wiki*
<kyleN_> cwayne, put on wiki
<mfisch> can achiang or janimo explain the plan for migrating to an official Ubuntu kernel config?
<mfisch> figure some people would like to know
<janimo> mfisch, kernel team will do it :)
<cwayne> victorp: sure
<janimo> the kernel is now maintained by the ubuntu kernel team
<mfisch> janimo: just the config or will the Ubuntu specific patches also be merged?
<janimo> mfisch, hopefully everything
<janimo> as long as they can be applied to 3.1 I guess
<mfisch> janimo: great, that should close out a bunch of bugs when it happens
<ogra-cb> well, not everything :)
<ogra-cb> we surely dont want all options an ubuntu kernel has by default
<mfisch> janimo: any ideas when this will happen?
 * ogra-cb doesnt care much about hardware raid controllers on his nexus
<mfisch> ogra-cb: but we do want more modules enabled
<achiang> mfisch: can you take us through a list of the most pressing bugs this week?
<ogra-cb> we want everything enabled you can attach
<achiang> and we can see if we need help anywhere
<janimo> mfisch, no, but it is on the kernel team's (which I am not part of) agenda
<ogra-cb> whcih largely means USB and BT
<mfisch> janimo: thanks
<mfisch> achiang: sure
<vanhoof> mfisch: that is being worked out atm as we prepare for R
<mfisch> dholbach: I'll go over the top most pressing bugs
<dholbach> thanks
<vanhoof> mfisch: as things progress, we can report back status here or in the wiki
<mfisch> vanhoof: great
<mfisch> So the top bug is the Nux issue: #1065638 Unity panels don't display visuals
<mfisch> we have a patch for Q in our PPA
<mfisch> and apparently a fix in R is landing soon
<achiang> i poked jay taoko today, and he says he's preparing a branch for landing "today"
<mfisch> great
<ogra-cb> what about the button 1 thing ?
<mfisch> the next bug is the bug where the input gets stuck, as if the left button mouse is pressed: #1068994 button1 gets stuck after a while
 * ogra-cb would actually see that as more important
<mfisch> we have no fix for this in Q or R currently
<dholbach> 1068994	dandrader      	button1 gets stuck after a while
<achiang> there is a developer working on it, but X is ... huge and hard to debug
<mfisch> achiang: any updates on this?  I know it's being worked but that's all
<mfisch> ok
<achiang> i will poke dandrader on this one
<dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1363002/ has a list of currently assigned bugs
<dholbach> (in the ubuntu-nexus7 project)
<mfisch> past those 2 bugs, we're in opinion territory for next most critical, but I'm going with this one: #1068804 sound only works after suspend/resume cycle
<ogra-cb> rotation !
 * achiang owns an action to escalate to nvidia on the sound bug, will do today
<mfisch> diwic did a lot of work on this, but at this point we're asking nVidia for help
<janimo> ogra-cb, that's a missing feature not a bug :)
<mfisch> ogra-cb: I'm smart enough to not rotate my device ;)
<ogra-cb> JanC, the feature is there but its buggy :P
<ogra-cb> bah
<ogra-cb> janimo, ^^
<mfisch> so as ogra-cb says we have several rotation bugs
<mfisch> rotation causes screen corruption
<mfisch> sometimes doesn't rotate input
<cwayne> doesn't auto-rotate
<kyleN_> (chrome doesn't rotate on Android JB)
<mfisch> and the device doesn't autorotate when you physically move it
<janimo> kyleN_, it does for me
<mfisch> is bryceh working on those?
<vanhoof> mfisch: do we have a plan on looking into the accelerometer that you know of?
<achiang> i bet bryceh is playing video games 16 hours a day right now ;)
<mfisch> I believe actually that none of them are being worked
<janimo> vanhoof, yes it's on my plate
<ogra-cb> achiang, hopefully
<mfisch> vanhoof: I think janimo was going to
<vanhoof> janimo: ah ok, please also give ming a ping, he has some background there
<janimo> vanhoof, sure
<mfisch> ogra-cb: has a good point, these bugs as a whole are likely in the top 5, so we need to get someone assigned
<vanhoof> janimo: and a device :)
<janimo> lol
<mfisch> oh, and about kernel bugs
<mfisch> we're not releasing any new Q kernels, so all the kernel fixes in progress will show up when we move to R
<janimo> there is a package in raring now, we can just file bugs on it now
<janimo> called linux-nexus7
<mfisch> any other bugs that people would consider top bugs?
<janimo> was the nautilus navigation is broken bug mentioned?
<janimo> double tap not working in nautilus
<mfisch> that's a good one
<bdmurray> Is there an apport package hook for linux-nexus7?
 * ogra-cb thinks that falls under input bugs rather than nautilus
<mfisch> nautilus double tap is broken, and single tap sometimes doesn't work either
<dholbach> alright, we have only a bit of time left - anything else important we should be covering before we adjourn and move over to #ubuntu-arm?
<janimo> ogra-cb, no, it works fine in thunar
<mfisch> bdmurray: an apport hook is on our todo list
<ogra-cb> bdmurray, kernel team maintains it, i woud expect so
<janimo> and also in the mouse settings window
<ogra-cb> janimo, oh
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everyone for turning up. This was a great first meeting. If you have more questions, please head over to #ubuntu-arm - you've seen the team here, they're all nice chaps - they'll help you get started. :-)
<kyleN_> ( janimo: you are correct. C rotation was locked in top panel for me )
<cwayne> just a heads up -- to make debugging/benchmarking easier, i've created a couple metapackages that have been uploaded to universe for R
<dholbach> And there's always https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7
<mfisch> we can do follow-ups in #ubuntu-arm also
<dholbach> cwayne, maybe we could include news like that in kind of a weekly report? I'd be happy to help getting it together and out there
<cwayne> ubuntu-benchmarking-tools, and ubuntu-remote-debug-host-tools
<cwayne> dholbach: sure
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everyone. Great work! :)
<achiang> cwayne: let's roll those up into our weekly status report which is due today. ;)
 * vanhoof waves
<dholbach> sweet
<ogra-cb> thanks dholbach !
<kyleN_> aloha
<ssweeny> thanks dholbach!
<vanhoof> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> thank you guys, you all did the hard work! :)
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 16 17:02:09 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-16-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-16-16.00.html
<cjwatson> ogra-cb,janimo: is it reasonably safe to upgrade a device to the new linux-nexus7 kernels in raring at this point?
<janimo> cjwatson, the very latest I did not yet test, was made by kernel team yesterday
<cjwatson> ok
<ogra-cb> theroetically it should work, practically you would be the first to test i think
<ogra-cb> i hope the meta has the right recommmends for the firmware .... i havent checked that
<janimo> ogra-cb, I have not added that (yet)
<ogra-cb> ah, then you will need to manually install linux-firmware-nexus7
<janimo> ogra-cb, and that conflicts with the linux-firmware that is in the ppa
<ogra-cb> janimo, werll, you probably dont need to for the raring images, but upgrades will break
<ogra-cb> i can special case it for the build for raring
<achiang> ogra-cb: upgrades only break in the case where you do not have pinning, right?
<ogra-cb> achiang, yes, but we dont want pinning :) thats just an interim solution
<achiang> ogra-cb: yes, i understand that. ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-17
<Tim> Morning!! Just making sure that I'm in the right place for 1pm GMT
<Tim> Afternoon All
<Tim> This is where the Ubuntu-TV meeting is supposed to be happening yes?
<bobweaver> Hello there due to the fact that google thinks that I live in Dubai  the meeting got all wakey on time zones so if there is anyone that shows up for the Ubuntu tv meeting in this channel please just point them to #ubuntu-tv and we can talk there sorry about the misunderstanding on my end of google calender. it was the 1st time that I used it again sorry for the trouble
<pleia2> bobweaver: pro tip: google calendar has a time zone option, iceland is UTC and doesn't get impacted by UTC so I always set meetings times to that ;)
<pleia2> s/impacted by UTC/impacted by DST
<bobweaver> yeah I just thought that it would know that I am in new york and not dubai not sure how it thinks that I am in dubai  again sorry about all that
<bobweaver> but thanks for the tip pleia2  as always. live to learn they say right :)
<pleia2> :)
<elfy> hi NikTh - I assume you've turned up for the FC meeting
<elfy> which is not looking good atm
<NikTh> Hello :-)
<NikTh> Yeap
<Iowan> o/ (practicing)
<elfy> hi Iowan
<Iowan> 'lo elfy
<Wild_Man> hi NikTh
<NikTh> hi Wild_Man
<NikTh> elfy,  Not looking good ?
<elfy> not atm - we'll wait a while see if we get 2 more admins
<elfy> sorry
<NikTh> No Problem :-)
<Iowan> CC already mentioned he'd be gone.
<elfy> yea
<elfy> s-fox said they were coming when we spoke late last night
<elfy> #startmeeting Forum Council meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Nov 17 18:18:24 2012 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Forum Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<Iowan> Hey - it works!
<elfy> #topic NikTh Ubuntu membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Forum Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:  NikTh Ubuntu membership
<elfy> NikTh: you about still
<NikTh> Begin ? :)
<Iowan> begin
<elfy> well - all we are doing is you - as we have proxy votes we can use already
<elfy> #voters elfy Iowan
<meetingology> Current voters: Iowan elfy
<Iowan> any last words?
<elfy> #vote NikTh Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: NikTh Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<NikTh> If you want to intro some things about my participation
<elfy> nope - we have all that NikTh from your forum application :)
<NikTh> Ok :-)
<Iowan> I'll pause if you want to change my mind ;)
<elfy> lol
<Iowan> otherwise:
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<elfy> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: NikTh Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elfy> ok NikTh - we have 2 otther +1's from admins that we can use
<NikTh> :) Thanks guys.. you're quick here :)
<Iowan> Congrats NikTh
<NikTh> Thank you :)
<elfy> so congratulations - one of us will deal with the forum membership for you - you can check the membership page for e-mail etc :)
<Iowan> ... and that concludes all the business we can conduct...
<elfy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Nov 17 18:24:06 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-17-18.18.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-17-18.18.html
<elfy> indeed
<elfy> thanks for coming along NikTh :)
<elfy> and Iowan
<Iowan> :)
<NikTh> :)
<pleia2> elfy: think you can start dropping a note to the ubuntu-news-team list about new members so we can include them in UWN? :)
<elfy> good job the agenda was really full up
<pleia2> would love to start highlighting mroe forums work
<elfy> pleia2: oh - good idea - don't think we've ever done that so it would be a long list lol
<elfy> yea - I'm all for that :)
<pleia2> just whatever you have after each meeting, could start now if you'd like - a list of people approved at this meeting
<pleia2> link to LP and wiki
<elfy> ok
<pleia2> thanks :D
<elfy> we sometimes remember to do a monthly report as well ...
<NikTh> Good Night from me :) Thanks again .
<elfy> night NikTh
 * pleia2 loves those monthly reports
<elfy> :)
<Iowan> sometimes we TRY to do a monthly report - dunnoo if I've succeeded yet
<elfy> pleia2: you got a link to the news team handy - save me digging :)
<pleia2> ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com
<elfy> thanks :)
<pleia2> I'll let it through if it gets stuck in the queue (running out for errands now though)
<elfy> pleia2: k - sent that - also added their forum page - if that could go in the UWN - would be even better :)
<Iowan> elfy, thanks for chairing the meeting!
<elfy> lol
<Iowan> later...
<elfy> yea - wandering off too
<elfy> pleia2: thatnks for that idea - have a good weekend :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-18
<indasky__> (:
<ibkillin> Enter text here...
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-12
<jamespage> arosales, I see you in the chair today - OK with that?
<arosales> jamespage, yes sir
<jamespage> arosales, good man!
<smoser> o/
<jamespage> \o
<arosales> startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 12 16:03:06 2013 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
 * arosales doesn't see any action items from the previous meeting
<arosales> #topic Saucy Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Saucy Development
<arosales> I guess we should update that to trusty dev
<jamespage> done
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> Looks like next milestone is the Feature Definition Freeze
<arosales> Alpha 1 on Dec 19th
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jamespage> which means feature definition freeze is at the end of vUDS
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-s-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<arosales> jamespage, ah good point
<arosales> be good to finalize those features in vUDS
<arosales> so looking @ http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-s-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<arosales> looks to have 27 bugs for ubuntu-server
<jamespage> quite a few of those are SRU tasks for juju-core
<jamespage> I got a bit carried away
<arosales> jamespage, thanks or logging them
<arosales> need to have those back into the lts
<arosales> one critical bug
<jamespage> arosales: I need to apply for a MRE for juju-core
<arosales> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1229275
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1229275 in maas (Ubuntu Saucy) "[maas] juju destroy-environment also destroys nodes that are not controlled by juju" [Critical,Triaged]
<jamespage> yah
<arosales> jamespage, +1 on MRE for juju-core, moving pretty fast am
<jamespage> so all of the fixes are avaliable in the stable juju ppa
<jamespage> but the distro package is now out-of-date
<jamespage> for saucy
<arosales> thus the SRUs
<jamespage> yup
<arosales> is 1229275 a fix in maas though?
<jamespage> roaksoax, is the maas multi-env destroy fix already in proposed?
<jamespage> that might be a dupe arosales
<roaksoax> jamespage: yes
<jamespage> roaksoax, ack
<roaksoax> jamespage: in fact, is already released
<jamespage> arosales: yes the maas tasks for that can be dropped
<arosales> roaksoax, can you update 1229275
<arosales> jamespage, ok if we hit the high unresolved bugs?
<roaksoax> sure
<arosales> roaksoax, thanks
<jamespage> good with me
<arosales> only one critical,
<arosales> next are highs
<arosales> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1208455
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1208455 in linux (Ubuntu Saucy) "general protection fault running apt-get inside double nested kvm VM" [High,In progress]
<arosales> looks like stefan bader is assigned
<arosales> in progress and confirmed . .  .
<arosales> looks like rbasak assigned this one
<arosales> but no objections by stefan
<jamespage> I'm not entirely sure why that is high
<jamespage> smb is not here to defend his position!
<arosales> looks like not action needed atm though
<jamespage> agreed
<rbasak> I think somebody probably told me to assign it when I wanted an assignment at a previous meeting.
<jamespage> its an odd edge case IMHO
<jamespage> rbasak, I remember that
<arosales> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1245251
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1245251 in libvirt (Ubuntu Saucy) "Apparmor blocks usb devices in libvirt in Saucy" [High,Confirmed]
<rbasak> IMHO, we should either stop tracking it, or assign someone
<hallyn_> that'll get fixed when we push 1.1.4 to trusty
<rbasak> Then we can focus on the stuff we intend to fix.
<arosales> hallyn_, is that for apparmor?
<hallyn_> yes
<arosales> hallyn_, thanks
<arosales> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1199791
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1199791 in nova (Ubuntu Saucy) "nova-compute-xcp misses nova-compute.conf" [High,Triaged]
<arosales> the next ones are for zul
<zul> uh?
<arosales> zul I think you are the assignee
<zul> oh wait..yeah still pending its going to be changing in the trusty cycle
<arosales> ok
<arosales> zul and for http://launchpad.net/bugs/1223010
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1223010 in keystone (Ubuntu Saucy) "Use oauthlib rather than oauth." [High,Triaged]
<zul> (damn daylight daying hours)
<zul> arosales:  i talked to upstream last week they are going to be moving to oauthlib
<arosales> zul thnks
<arosales> thanks
<arosales> https://bugs.launchpad.net/maas/+bug/1228085
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1228085 in maas (Ubuntu Saucy) "The commissioning script 00-maas-03-install-lldpd outputs to stderr." [High,Triaged]
<arosales> looks like gavin has a fix
<arosales> but needs to be worked in saucy
<arosales> roaksoax, any opinions?
<arosales> jamespage, SRU needed here?
<jamespage> the tasks are raised so most likely
<arosales> jamespage, any actions needed for the SRUs?
<arosales> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1236439
<roaksoax> arosales: that was fixed too
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1236439 in neutron "switch to use hostnames like nova breaks upgrades of l3-agent" [Critical,Triaged]
<jamespage> arosales: yes - still needed
<arosales> roaksoax, ah even better. Could you update the bug if it is indeed fixed in saucy and trusty
<jamespage> roaksoax, is it?
<jamespage> I just checked in 2.2
<roaksoax> jamespage: yeah I fixed it differently, IIRC. Gonna have a deeper look
<jamespage> arosales: that neutron bug is reference upstream inthe havana release notes
<jamespage> roaksoax, ack
<arosales> roaksoax, thanks, could you update the bug post your research?
<jamespage> I've pinged upstream to see if a helper is going to appear for upgraders
<arosales> jamespage, ack on the neutron bug
<roaksoax> arosales: yup
<arosales> roaksoax, thanks
<arosales> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1242363
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1242363 in puppet (Ubuntu Saucy) "Puppet package needs ruby-hiera (unmapped dep)" [High,Triaged]
<arosales> puppet bug
<arosales> packaging issue . .  .
<arosales> rbasak, looks to confirmed ruby-hiera  fixes it
<arosales> rbasak, next action needed to update puppet deps or add in ruby-hiera?
<rbasak> It's on my list.
<rbasak> I'm hoping to combine it with a merge when I get to it, and then SRU.
<arosales> rbasak, would you like to assign yourself?
<rbasak> Done
<arosales> rbasak, thank you sir
<arosales> thats the last high
<arosales> have a few undecided that need triaged
<arosales> I think most of them are around juju-core
 * arosales thinks those are the SRUs jamespage was referring to
<jamespage> yes
<arosales> #subtopic Blueprints
<arosales> jamespage, smoser looks like we also need a trusty topic BP
<jamespage> arosales: we do - is that something you can setup?
<arosales> jamespage, sure
<arosales> #action arosales to set up topic bp for server
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales to set up topic bp for server
<jamespage> for now - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu?searchtext=servercloud-1311
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-s-servercloud-overview.html
<jamespage> that's what we have on the list for next week
<arosales> we should postpone the rest of these though
<jamespage> arosales: I'd leave it until after next week
<jamespage> we can carry stuff over and close old bp's out
<jamespage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BlueprintSpec
<arosales> jamespage, smoser do you want to step through these and mark postponed as necessary?
<arosales> jamespage, ack
<jamespage> ^^ blueprint spec for new blueprints
<arosales> #action jamespage, smoser,  review all saucy BPs
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage, smoser,  review all saucy BPs
<smoser> deal
<arosales> where is gaughen
 * arosales wanted to put in an action item there too
<gaughen> I'm right here!
<jamespage> I see gaughen
 * jamespage waves
<arosales> #action gaughen review saucy BPs
<meetingology> ACTION: gaughen review saucy BPs
 * gaughen waves back
<arosales> ah autocomplete just failed me
<arosales> action items set ;-)
<arosales> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<gaughen> k
<jamespage> mia
<arosales> ok
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa> nothing much from us apart from the fact that our services are down at the moment
<psivaa> due to 1SS hardware move
<jamespage> psivaa, any eta on returning service?
 * jamespage hates to ask
<psivaa> jamespage: the core services should start late this evening and the rest will be tomorrow
<jamespage> ack
<arosales> psivaa, ok thanks for the update
<psivaa> yw :)
<arosales> any other questions for psivaa
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
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<jamespage> mia as well
<arosales> jamespage, thanks for letting me know :-)
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<jamespage> we had one thing we where working on with kernel team
<jamespage> openvswitch-dkms drop for 14.04
<rbasak> Nothing new to report from me. Any questions?
<jamespage> can't quite make it but all of the mainline features we need are in 3.13; only need dkms for experimental stuff
<arosales> jamespage, need a vUDS session on that or all coordination happening in a bug?
<jamespage> no
 * arosales takes it as no vuds sessions needed
<jamespage> it will be covered in other sesssions
<arosales> jamespage, ack
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> so lots of stuff wrapping up
<arosales> ODS
<arosales> RubyConf last  week
<arosales> AWS re:Invent this week
<arosales> any other events?
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<arosales> all folks in-line with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BlueprintSpec ?
<arosales> jamespage one point of feedback I got, perhaps around "user acceptance"
<arosales> is how do we know this particular feature is a "success"
<arosales> ie what is the metric to measure the bp was actually successfully
<arosales> jamespage, thoughts?
<jamespage> its quite subjective; but it could be anything from some dep-8 tests to a more detail decription on how to use a new feature in the docs
<hallyn_> or does 'feature is a success' mean that the users got what they wanted?
<jamespage> actually that's a good point - 14.04 will have associated ubuntu-server docs; so don't forget to include doc tasks in your blueprints
<arosales> sorry, its more of what the folks working on the BP define as success
<jamespage> hallyn_, I think it means that you can demonstrate how the use cases documented are fulfilled
<arosales> ie if dep-8 test pass that is a _metric_ for success
<arosales> but that is definitive, and measurable.
<arosales> it should tie directly to the goal, but be more straightforward on how the goal is going to be specifically meet.
<arosales> basically what are tangible working towards, and how do we know we are done
<arosales> thoughts?
<arosales> perhaps this is covered in an existing template point . . .
<arosales> crickets
<jamespage> those are the ones in my head doing that
<gaughen> so I'm way late here - but another event  coming up is vUDS
<jamespage> I think it comes down to how do you demonstrate that a feature is implemented
<arosales> jamespage, correct
<arosales> jamespage, basically I was looking for a way to document _when_ the feature is complete.
<hallyn_> that's the halting problem
<arosales> hallyn_, please expand
<arosales> gaughen, good point on http://uds.ubuntu.com/
<arosales> #link http://uds.ubuntu.com/
<gaughen> arosales, it's on my mind because of having to host some sessions ;-)
<hallyn_> arosales: nah, just being a wiseass
<arosales> hallyn_, jamespage so any bp work we define should have a deliverable we can measure and define as done
<gaughen> arosales, it's hallyn_'s turn today to be the wiseass
<jamespage> yup
<arosales> if we don't have that how do we know it was done and done well?
<jamespage> so when arosales comes along and say - show me - you can point and say - there!
<jamespage> and he can try it himself!
<arosales> yup, no ambiguity as to what is going to be delivered.
<hallyn_> the bp tracks the work items.  we mark them as done.  we trust that we dont' mark them as done if they're not.  you're asking for something higher level.
<arosales> ie _this_ is what we are defining for delivery of this feature and what we will call success
<arosales> success = we delivered what we set out to and meet user stories and the goal
<arosales> but needs to be tangible, and quantifiable
<hallyn_> each work item is that
<arosales> hallyn_, so those are pieces
<arosales> what are those pieces incrementally working to deliver?
<arosales> hallyn_, not high level
<hallyn_> as someone said, that's the user stories
<arosales> hallyn_, what I am looking for when all work items are done what specifically did the BP deliver?
<arosales> is it?
<hallyn_> arosales: user stories.  i know what you're getting at, but i don't think it's a good use of our time to try and build test cases - and run them - for each user story
<hallyn_> maybe it is, in which case we may have to have fewer work items so we have time for that
<hallyn_> but i think that's what uds is for each time - gauge last cycle, plan next.
<hallyn_> anyway maybe we ned to discuss elsewhere
<arosales> sure, I just don't think we are doing a great job of stating what is tangibly delivered
<arosales> hallyn_, not a test case for each user story
<arosales> just a specific deliverable stating what this BP is going to be delivered, that we can measure
<arosales> perhaps that sets better in the goal
<arosales> if the goal is written well. . .
<arosales> in any case I have beaten that to death
<arosales> I"ll try to write up something for the goal section
<hallyn_> ok
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<arosales> Tuesday 2013-11-19 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<hallyn_> let's not
<arosales> thanks for joining
<hallyn_> arosales: that's uds
<jamespage> thanks arosales
<arosales> hallyn_, ah good point
<hallyn_> nov 26?
<arosales> #action arosales send email to server list to cancel Nov 19 server meeting in liu of UDS
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales send email to server list to cancel Nov 19 server meeting in liu of UDS
<arosales> nov 26 may collide with us holidy too
<hallyn_> eeeeh, maybe.  i'll be here.  misses by 2 days.
<arosales> Thanksgiving may later in the week
<arosales> Tuesday 2013-11-26 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<arosales> thanks everyone
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 12 16:53:21 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-12-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-12-16.03.html
<hallyn_> thanks arosales
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-14
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 14 16:00:19 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> a few people missing today due to the Debian Miniconf is Cambridge... so I guess this'll be a short one :)
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> cjwatson jodh xnox stokachu stgraber doko slangasek barry bdmurray
<slangasek> jodh: you're first!
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>   - Working on overcoming ptrace limitations tests
<jodh>   - Resolving some test issues:
<jodh>     - lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/cleanup-test-xdg-dirs
<jodh>     - lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/fix-test_state-test-reprise
<jodh>   - Test micro enhancement: lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/test-upstart-name
<jodh>   - Upstart 1.11 release.
<jodh> * TODO
<jodh>   - Get upstart 1.11 into the archive.
<jodh>   - continue ptrace work.
<jodh> â½¶
<stgraber> xnox is in cambridge and stokachu doesn't appear to be around, so I guess that's my turn then
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> stokachu: are you not around?
<slangasek> stokachu: go ahead :)
<slangasek> stgraber: I meant stgraber, not stokachu, curse the tab completion ;)
<stgraber> :)
<stgraber> - SRU
<stgraber>   - SecureBoot SRU testing in precise, quantal, raring and saucy.
<stgraber>   - I've been going through pending-sru and the queues a couple times a day for the past few days, trying to get everything under control.
<stgraber> - Merges
<stgraber>   - Made progress on the resolvconf merge.
<stgraber>   - Working on a few others (busybox, ifupdown, installation-report, libdebian-installer, nbd and netcfg)
<stgraber> - System images
<stgraber>   - Tracked down a couple of system-images bug (related to image revert and copies)
<stgraber>   - Wrote some test code for the new generators (needed to support ports)
<stgraber> - ARM
<stgraber>   - Added support for the wandboard in our kernel, flash-kernel and d-i
<stgraber>   - Reworked the way the armhf images are generated to use devicetree, the current u-boot, use a single d-i build for all the boards using the generic image (cut build time by half) and publish the board images to a new sub-directory.
<stgraber>     Example: https://www.stgraber.org/download/d-i/
<stgraber> - LXC
<stgraber>   - Backported current saucy-updates LXC and libseccomp to all supported releases.
<stgraber>   - Code reviews and discussion in LXC upstream, postponed alpha3 a bit as I want to see a few issues with lxc-info fixed first.
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>   - Booked trip to London for the Core sprint.
<stgraber>   - Some vUDS prep
<stgraber> (DONE)
<doko> - ongoing component-mismatch work (50 perl libs)
<doko> - MIR processing, pestering
<doko> - toolchain work
<stokachu> slangasek: yep sorry finishing up juju meeting
<doko> (done)
<stokachu> no on fire issues \o/, finished python3 port of sosreport, buried in maas/juju issues (done)
<slangasek> stgraber: what's the wandboard?
<stgraber> slangasek: imx6 quadcore, 2GB of RAM, gigabit ethernet and SATA. That's my new armhf sbuild/LXC box
<slangasek> hmm, ok
<slangasek> so we have imx.6 support in the kernel?  Is that part of arm mp?
<stgraber> yep, the generic 3.12 kernel supports it
<stgraber> all I had to do was get the kernel team to turn on the generation of the dtb file and get flash-kernel and d-i to detect the board properly
<slangasek> (and the necessary hardware support is enabled in our kernel build in the archive?)
<slangasek> ah, alrighty
<stgraber> so the only difference in the published d-i tree is what dtb is appended to the kernel of each of the boards, besides that, everything is identical
<slangasek> stokachu: python3> yay!  Is that in the archive now?
 * slangasek nods to stgraber 
<stokachu> slangasek: our 3.1 milestone is set for Feb 2014 which will have that
<stokachu> but yea sosreport is in main
<slangasek> stokachu: I meant is the python3 support in the archive :)
<stokachu> ah lol sorry long nights
<stokachu> not yet
<slangasek> so we can drop python2 from main with a vengeance!
<barry> \o/
<stokachu> slangasek: definately, major motivation is to have it in the cloud images
 * slangasek wonders if we should talk to the MIR team about blocking any more python2 deps from main
<barry> slangasek: radical
<slangasek>  * very short week: public holiday Monday, jury duty Tuesday
<slangasek>  * most of the rest of the time spent catching up
<slangasek>  * internal discussions about various ongoing and upcoming projects
<slangasek>  * prep for vUDS next week
<slangasek>  * started cleaning up unverified SRUs
<slangasek>  * TODO:
<slangasek>   * upstart 1.11 into Debian unstable
<slangasek>   * finish the horrible isdnutils merge so we can drop archaic versions of automake
<stgraber> has openstack switched to python3 by default now? otherwise blocking new python2 deps in main is going to be tricky...
<slangasek> (done)
<stokachu> stgraber: still relies on python2
<stokachu> thats going to be a huge migration i think
<barry> system-image: working on 2.0, tested locally, ready to be scheduled for landing. LP: #1195057, LP: #1192717, LP: #1250181, LP: #1250553
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1195057 in Ubuntu system image "Always verify before unpacking the keyring.tar.xz files" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1195057
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1192717 in Ubuntu system image "Ensure that the client respects key expiry in all keyrings but blacklist" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1192717
<barry> other: python issue 19555 (reinstate/deprecate sysconfig $SO)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1250181 in system-image (Ubuntu) "Duplicate files in winning path should prevent updates" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1250181
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1250553 in Ubuntu system image "Tweak the candidate path scoring algorithm" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1250553
<barry> done
<slangasek> stokachu: is it a migration that's being done for 14.04?
<bdmurray> release upgrader bug triage
<bdmurray> investigation into no ubuntu-minimal upgrade found bugs
<bdmurray> tested and uploaded modifications to update-notifier's upstart crash notification job (LP: #1193509)
<bdmurray> research into dpkg already installed and configured bug reports
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1193509 in update-notifier (Ubuntu Saucy) "notified of crash reports which you do not have permission to read and submit" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1193509
<bdmurray> pushed fix for apt-clone permissions on a restored /etc/apt/sources.list
<bdmurray> test and reconfigure my lxc-errors system to work with the cassandra cluster (read only access restored)
<bdmurray> reported apport bug 1250679
<ubottu> bug 1250679 in apport (Ubuntu) "crash files from guest users considered system reports" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1250679
<bdmurray> release of verified SRUs
<bdmurray> reply to bug squad bug triage process emails
<bdmurray> â done
<stokachu> slangasek: i can find out what upstream is doing
<stokachu> i know canonical isn't doing any python3 porting atm
<barry> stokachu: let us know
<stokachu> barry: will do have it added as an action item
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> any other questions over statuseses?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] vUDS
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: vUDS
<slangasek> vUDS is next week
<slangasek> everyone ready? :)
<barry> um, kind of ;)
<stgraber> I guess so
<slangasek> formally, there are still a few slots available on the calendar... but I guess everyone's schedules are already quite full
<slangasek> but if there are any sessions that you think still need to be added, we can squeeze them in
<slangasek> I just won't move other sessions around to make room for them, so :)
<slangasek>  Cadastrar funcionÃ¡rio administrativo - hmm, I'm probably not approving that blueprint for UDS
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> so I think everybody had a chance last cycle to present on a topic during the meeting
<slangasek> should we continue that this cycle?  Does anyone have particular topics they'd like to talk about?
<stokachu> when's the kernel getting re-written in go? :X
<stgraber> I think it was a good thing, though I personally don't have any topics at this point (as I already presented the two things I'm most involved with these days)
<barry> i liked hear about other things folks were working on
<stokachu> slangasek: will there be a meeting week of thanksgiving?
<slangasek> stokachu: nope
<stokachu> slangasek: thanks
<slangasek> well, unless the non-Americans want to meet without us, but then I guess it's not a meeting you'd want to attend anyway :)
<stokachu> haha
<barry> how about during vuds?
<slangasek> the meeting time falls during the UDS block, right?
<slangasek> so I guess that's also a "no" for next week
<slangasek> so... next meeting in December :)
<barry> see you guys in december then!
<stokachu> \o/
<slangasek> anyway, sounds like no one's dying to present right now the exciting thing they're working on, but we do like having the presentations
<slangasek> I'll work on getting topics put together in time for the next meeting then
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 14 16:25:20 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-14-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-14-16.00.html
<slangasek> thanks, everyone :)
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-10
<jdstrand> hi!
<chrisccoulson> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 10 17:23:11 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I got pretty side-tracked last week with unplanned things
<jdstrand> so, I'd like to finish the click-apparmor 0.3 for vivid and finish apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu for vivid
<jdstrand> I'd also like to finish my update for click-reviewers-tools changes
<jdstrand> once again, adjusting UCT for derivative branches
<jdstrand> and then pending updates
<jdstrand> that includes the sponsored konversation and kde-workspace that should go out today
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you'r up
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: nm
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<mdeslaur> oh, I'm here now
 * sbeattie pauses
<mdeslaur> darn time zones
<jdstrand> yes, my apologies
<jdstrand> it is scheduled for ~ 1 hour ago
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> maybe next week...
<mdeslaur> And have a few updates planned
<mdeslaur> and an embargoed issue I need to look at
<mdeslaur> and pending that, I'll be going down the list again
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm working on the gcc pie-by-defaulton-x86-64 stuff; I have the patch applying cleanly again, and am currently hammering my laptop as it finishes building gcc locally.
<sbeattie> Once that finishes, I'll start doing test builds of other packages against it.
<sbeattie> I also need to do the usual apparmor stuff.
<sbeattie> that's it for me; tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm currently working a parser bug in trusty (LP: #1390592)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1390592 in linux (Ubuntu) "'ptrace peer=@{profile_name}' does not work on 14.04 (at least) with docker" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390592
<tyhicks> I've identified the bad patch and am in the process of testing a new package built with the correct upstream patch
<tyhicks> after that, I need to revisit the dbus-daemon unrequested replies bug (LP: #1362469)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1362469 in dbus (Ubuntu) "AppArmor unrequested reply protection generates unallowable denials" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362469
<jdstrand> tyhicks: oh, it was the parser after all. and this is something for trusty sru?
<sbeattie> tyhicks: oh, hunh, we have a different patch in ubuntu to add @{profile_name} from upstream?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: it is something for a trusty sru - does someone have one in progress?
<tyhicks> (I know we were talking about SRUing the python utils fixes)
<jdstrand> I think sbeattie and mdeslaur were working to prepare one
 * jdstrand isn't sure of the status
<tyhicks> sbeattie: nope, the bad patch is one that attempted to fix and cleanup escape sequence handling
<sbeattie> yeah, though I've mostly been doing prep work, I haven't got a tree in progress yep.
<sbeattie> s/yep/yet/
<sbeattie> oh, hrm.
<tyhicks> sbeattie: ubuntu patch add-decimal-interp.patch should be replaced with upstream rev 2456
<tyhicks> I have a bit more testing to do, though
<tyhicks> re dbus-daemon unrequested replies bug> folks are thinking that the newer dbus might fix an issue that dbus-daemon is hitting in rtm
<jdstrand> so, bug #1390592 is pretty important to fix
<ubottu> bug 1390592 in apparmor (Ubuntu Trusty) "'ptrace peer=@{profile_name}' does not work on 14.04 (at least) with docker" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390592
<tyhicks> jdstrand: should we do an SRU just for it?
<jdstrand> if we aren't planning to fix the python tools now, I think we should
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> I should be able to prepare an SRU for that today
<jdstrand> ok, thanks
<tyhicks> np
<sbeattie> okay, that's fine.
<tyhicks> also, I'll continue work on turning the apparmor policy cache setup and loading code into a library
<tyhicks> it has taken a little longer than expected but I finally feel like I'm making progress now
<jdstrand> oh, I forgot-- I plan on finishing my upstream patch for docker so it can apply policy based on parser capabilities
<tyhicks> (it is a little difficult to pull out the cache handling bits from the profile parser)
<tyhicks> ok, that's it for me
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: I think it is your turn
<tyhicks> skipping jjohansen and sarnold (time zone victims)
<jdstrand> jj is off today
<tyhicks> oh yes
<chrisccoulson> this week, I'm hoping to finish off the header bar controls in oxide. I'm also going to be working on several bugs that affect single-process mode
<chrisccoulson> I've just got chromium out (not for precise though)
<chrisccoulson> and I've got one embargoed update to do
<jdstrand> nice
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: any news on precise?
<mdeslaur> what's wrong with precise?
<chrisccoulson> oh, and reviewing updates to the mediahub branch when they arrive
<chrisccoulson> chad's still working on building a compiler that can actually build it
<jdstrand> good stuff
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/stunnel4.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lib3ds.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/qmail.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/c-icap.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/smokeping.html
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> sarnold: hey, can you give a quick update?
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; I have some outstanding apparmor patches to review, and I'd like to keep working on programming scopes and applications for the touch environment
<sarnold> I found david planella's Ubuntu On Air video from last week really useful to understand the otherwise baffling ubuntu sdk environment, well worth watching that if you're new to it
<sarnold> there's two more videos in the series, and even though they are ridiculously long, I found the first one worth watching, so I'll try the other two as well
<sarnold> that's me; is it back to jdstrand or chrisccoulson?
<jdstrand> me
<jdstrand> but actually, that's it
<jdstrand> sarnold: thanks :)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks,chrisccoulson, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 10 17:52:58 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-10-17.23.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<sarnold> jdstrand: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-11
<rbasak> o/
<matsubara> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 11 16:00:19 2014 UTC.  The chair is matsubara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<matsubara> hello there! let's get this started. Who's here today?
<matsubara> Apologies from our American colleagues as it's a national holiday for them.
<matsubara> jamespage took the day off too IIRC
<matsubara> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> So just us?
<rbasak> And gnuoy maybe?
<rbasak> kickinz1: ?
<matsubara> gnuoy, kickinz1, zul ?
<gnuoy> o/
<matsubara> no action points from the previous meeting.
<rbasak> Is it worth having a meeting today?
<zul> ah ues
<matsubara> we can postpone to the 25th since next week is the cloud sprint
<rbasak> Is there anything anybody would like to bring up in particular?
<rbasak> If not, +1 to postpone.
<zul> +111111 to postpone ;)
<gnuoy> nothing from me so +1 the postpone
<rbasak> Note to all: the Ubuntu Online Summit starts tomorrow.
<rbasak> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1411/ for mre
<rbasak> more
<matsubara> cool. thanks for the link rbasak
<matsubara> Anything else? I'll email the list to tell people the meeting has been postponed to the 25th due to the Cloud Sprint next week.
<matsubara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 11 16:07:47 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-11-16.00.moin.txt
<matsubara> thanks guys!
<NikTh> Register your attendance for UOS here: https://launchpad.net/sprints/uos-1411/+attend :-)
<rbasak> Thanks matsubara!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-09
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  9 16:36:28 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Klas Mattsson (klas-mattsson) provided a debdiff for precise for openafs (LP: #1513461)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1513461 in openafs (Ubuntu) "OPENAFS-SA-2015-007 "Tattletale"" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1513461
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for trusty-wily for mysqldb (LP: #1512241)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1512241 in mariadb-10.0 (Ubuntu Xenial) "USN-2781-1: MySQL vulnerabilities partially also applies to MariaDB" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512241
<tyhicks> Many thanks for your contributions and assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> so, I need to arrange travel for an upcoming sprint
<jdstrand> I'm also helping interview candidates for FIPS/CC lead (https://ldd.tbe.taleo.net/ldd03/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CANONICAL&cws=1&rid=1049)
<jdstrand> I will be picking up the snappy security policy generation work (reviewing merges to me branch, finishing up the branch)
<jdstrand> I have a number of sprint followups too
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I just released an unzip regression fix
<mdeslaur> and I have a number of embargoed issues I'm working on
<mdeslaur> tomorrow I get to do patch piloting
<mdeslaur> and if I have time, I'll pluck something off the list
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue and an openjdk-7 regression fix to do.
<sbeattie> I need to contact people to get a test archive rebuild going for the pie work
<sbeattie> and that will probably consume most of my week, which will be a bit short (holiday weds, need to swap friday off)
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week
<tyhicks> I need to book upcoming sprint travel
<tyhicks> I have Ubuntu Core Sprint followups from last week
<tyhicks> still getting to the mapplauncherd review and profile development
<tyhicks> and then I'll start working on making it easier to create AppArmor policy namespaces and to load AppArmor policy inside of user namespaces
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am mostly working on apparmor stacking/namespaces
<jjohansen> I need to finish up the experiment with the latest of the smack ns patches, and refresh to the set that was just put up
<jjohansen> I also have bug 1511791 to finish chasing down
<ubottu> bug 1511791 in apparmor (Ubuntu) "dbus rule regression with wpa supplicant profile" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511791
<tyhicks> jjohansen: that feels like a bug that I should chase down while you work on stacking
<tyhicks> jjohansen: well, unless you feel like it is a kernel issue
<jjohansen> tyhicks: feel free, specifically I am just looking at whether it is related to the signal issue I started chasing last week and haven't filed a bug on
<jjohansen> I wasn't planning on chasing it into dbus
<tyhicks> jjohansen: ok, only do as much on it as determining if it is the same bug as the signal issue
<tyhicks> jjohansen: if not, punt it to me
<jjohansen> ack
<tyhicks> thanks
<jjohansen> oh, and that means I should also finish getting together to post the code I put together for testing the signal issue
<jjohansen> that is it for /me sarnold_ you are up?
<tyhicks> haven't seen him yet
<jjohansen> yeah
<tyhicks> probably due to DST timing confusion
<jjohansen> yep
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: go ahead
<chrisccoulson> This week, I've got an embargoed update to do. And possibly also Thunderbird
<chrisccoulson> I'll also be working on camera support in the browser for the phone, tidying up the Flash support in Oxide (it works pretty well now) and getting a fork of Chromium in git up and running
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/parcimonie.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libguac.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xbindkeys-config.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gcc-4.8-ppc64el-cross.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/netty.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  9 16:57:08 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-09-16.36.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
<chiluk> o/
<chiluk> is there going to be a DMB meeting today?
<cyphermox> chiluk: hey. we may or may not have quorum yet, checking...
<chiluk> ah fantastic.  just glad to see I'm not alone.
<cyphermox> stgraber: bdmurray: infinity: hey, meeting time.
<cyphermox> micahg: xnox: ^
 * stgraber waves
<bdmurray> o/
<chiluk> I just realized that I didn't send my application out t lists devel-permissions until a few minutes ago.
<cyphermox> it's micah's turn to chair too, but he might not be there
<cyphermox> we just need one more.
<chiluk> xnox.. come on man.. throw me a bone man.
<stgraber> hmm, we do require a week between application and meeting (where application is defined as e-mail to devel-permissions).
<chiluk> yeah I just realized that.
<stgraber> oh, that's for UCD, I guess that may be fine then. I wouldn't be ready to vote on upload rights but UCD may be fine, assuming we do get quorum.
 * cyphermox activates the air-horn
<chiluk> yeah shame on me.. I'll leave that up to you guys if you want to proceed with the discussion or postpone.
<stgraber> yeah, just checked the wiki and I'm fine to vote on it myself.
<cyphermox> chiluk: I'm happy to do the discussion and vote today, we just need one more DMB person
<chiluk> stgraber... yeah it's just UCD... I have no particular packages that I want ppu rights for...
<chiluk> infinity probably just wants plausible deniability..
<cyphermox> right now is clearly outside his "timezone" :)
<chiluk> you mean 9-5 right?
<bdmurray> I think he was taking the day of due to travel etc
<chiluk> as in 9-5 in whatever timezone he's currently in.
<cyphermox> bdmurray: possibly.
<cyphermox> I don't really want to be herding cats for an hour though
<cyphermox> xnox: last call?
<chiluk> yeah that's fine.. We can postpone for another 2 weeks.
<cyphermox> I suppose that is what we'll do
<micahg_mobile> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-10
 * xnox has no internets at home, hence i was not online =(
<xnox> sorry chiluk
<chiluk> lol xnox... it's all good man.. just make the next one.  You are at intel now right?  You seem to be thriving there.
<hallyn> hey all
<arges> hey
 * hallyn not sure whether noone is around o r whether he showed up too late for everyone waving
<arges> i don't think anything has started yet
<hallyn> i'll start in 1 min i guess
<hallyn> no, i'm starting it today :)
<arges> ah
<matsubara> o/
<hallyn> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 10 16:02:55 2015 UTC.  The chair is hallyn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> no actions,
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xenial Development
<hallyn> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<hallyn> making our way toward the nov 26 feature definition freeze.
<hallyn> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<hallyn> i see 5 bugs, 1 critiical...
<hallyn> smoser: jamespage: were you wanting to go throughthe bugs?
<hallyn> (early in the cycle...)
<smoser> lets skip . unless omeon really wants to.
<hallyn> k
<smoser> well.. .why not.
<smoser> let me load
<smoser> acutally i think all those things there are "mine"
<hallyn> ok, let's move on :)
<smoser> or utlemming or cloud images team.s o... lets move on
<hallyn> thx
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Assigned bugwork (rbasak)
<hallyn> rbasak: anything you wanted to discuss?
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> I'd like to defer this to next week please. I'm still gathering what needs to be done for this cycle.
<hallyn> np, moving on
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<hallyn> no caribou here
<hallyn> so on to
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<hallyn> matsubara: \o
<matsubara> Hi there, we finally got a jenkins instance from IS. https://server-team-jenkins.canonical.com/ and I'll be populating it initially with curtin integration test jobs
<matsubara> and I'll help migrate our smoketests (iso tests) from some other jenkins instance into that one
<matsubara> also, seb128 was looking for ubuntu-devels to review test case changes
<matsubara> let me just grab the link
<matsubara> https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/lvm-grub-preseed-fix/+merge/258620 and https://code.launchpad.net/~om26er/ubuntu-test-cases/fix_minimal_image_size_test/+merge/235298
<hallyn> should that be an action for everyone to look that over, youthink?
<matsubara> I pinged rbasak earlier on to take a look and he asked me to ping again if he forgets
<matsubara> so here's a ping and action :-)
<hallyn> heh,
<hallyn> #action rbasak look at https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/lvm-grub-preseed-fix/+merge/258620 and https://code.launchpad.net/~om26er/ubuntu-test-cases/fix_minimal_image_size_test/+merge/235298
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak look at https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/lvm-grub-preseed-fix/+merge/258620 and https://code.launchpad.net/~om26er/ubuntu-test-cases/fix_minimal_image_size_test/+merge/235298
<matsubara> that's all I have for today hallyn, thanks!
<hallyn> (and presumably delegate :)
<rbasak> ack
<hallyn> thank you,
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Upcoming Call For Papers
<hallyn> fosdem's devroom cfps shoudl all be open the next few weeks,
<hallyn> (including a container one)
<hallyn> anything else?
<hallyn> ok, moving on,
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<hallyn> nothing i know of.
<hallyn> (will give it another 30 secs)
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<hallyn> i have a feeling only 4 of us made it for the time change, and we're not feeling chatty...
<hallyn> ok,
* hallyn changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<hallyn> That'll be Tuesday Nov 17, 16:00 UTC, the honorable rbasak presiding
<Beret> cool
<hallyn> thanks all
<hallyn> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 10 16:14:08 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-10-16.02.moin.txt
<rbasak> Thanks hallyn!
<Beret> hallyn, thanks
<hallyn> Announce next meeting date, time and chair \o
<hallyn> bleh
<hallyn> \o
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-12
<Celero> kien de puerto l cru
<cyphermox> o/
<pitti> \o
<sil2100> o/
 * slangasek waves
<infinity> \o
<cyphermox> should we list tasks since the last meeting or just this week?
<tdaitx> o/
<sil2100> I was just listing tasks from this week
 * bdmurray just has all of them
<infinity> Mine's like two lines long. :P
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 12 16:02:06 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<sil2100> Yay, so mine won't be the shortest one then
<sil2100> Yay for infinity
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx)
<slangasek> infinity doko slangasek bdmurray sil2100 cyphermox barry tdaitx robru pitti caribou
<cyphermox>    - been feeling like crap with a headache for a couple of days now
<cyphermox>    - shim/grub work for enforcing kernel signatures
<cyphermox>    - discussed details for shim's validation with slangasek, pjones
<cyphermox>    - teaching ubuntu-drivers, software-properties and ubiquity about mokutil.
<cyphermox>    - sponsored network-manager, modemmanager
<cyphermox>    - partman-ext3 blocking ubiquity waiting for input bug LP: #1361951
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1361951 in partman-ext3 (Ubuntu) "mke2fs asks for input when formatting over a partition table" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1361951
<cyphermox> (done)
<infinity> Very, very short week (plus sprint):
<infinity>  - s390x porting and bootstrapping
<infinity>  - emergency security kernels
<infinity>  - expedited cloud-init SRUs
<infinity> (done)
<doko> - sprint, and going back
<doko> - chasing binutils regressions
<doko> - looking at GCC 5 linaro regressions
<doko> - merges
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> slangasek: ?
<slangasek>  * short week, national holiday
<slangasek>  * merges, archive work, and +1 maintenance to try to unblock the mass library transition
<slangasek>  * secureboot policy discussions
<slangasek>  * POWER8 hardware shuffling
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<slangasek>  * zSeries bring-up discussions
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> :)
<bdmurray> discovered and fixed a bug with apport finding -dbg packages
<bdmurray> researched into how retraces would fail w/ said apport bug
<bdmurray> T, V SRU verification of apport LP: #1512902
<bdmurray> reported, fixed apport sending corrupt crash files to errors (LP: #1512902)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1512902 in apport (Ubuntu Wily) "apport will create .upload files for incomplete or corrupt crash reports" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512902
<bdmurray> modified duplicate signature for apport-package bugs to be more informative
<bdmurray> SRU verified distro-info-data for Precise, Trusty and Vivid
<bdmurray> uploaded SRU for and added a test case to whoopsie LP: #1382233
<bdmurray> confirmed UnreportableReason is being added for Xenial crashes
<bdmurray> reported and researched ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1511783
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1382233 in whoopsie (Ubuntu Precise) "whoopsie does not upload UnreportableReason field in crash reports" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382233
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1511783 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "release upgrader can create a too minimal sources.list" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511783
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for LP: #1511831 to wily
<bdmurray> worked with pitti / ccoulson re not reporting /usr/lib/firefox/plugin-container crashes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1511831 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Wily) "dist upgrade quirk for linux metapackage crashes if package is not in cache" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511831
<bdmurray> research into quantity of bug reporters using persistence
<bdmurray> â done
<sil2100> - Really short week: swap day on Monday, sick on Tuesday, national holiday on Wednesday
<slangasek> infinity: gasp, that was three lines
<sil2100> - OTA-8 coordination, landing freezes and preparations
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Fixed some issues in the image tag branch as per barry's review
<sil2100>   * Prepared quick arch addition for raspi2 and plano
<infinity> slangasek: Counting isn't my stong suit.
<sil2100>   * Additional work on the new script framework
<sil2100> - +1-maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Finished up the bug for ocaml transition finish
<sil2100>   * Look into the remaining failures on the transition list
<sil2100> (done)
<barry> recoverying from sprintitis
<barry> debian bug #804319; python3-openid 3.0.9-1; pyflakes 1.0.0-4; zope.i18n 4.1.0-1
<ubottu> Debian bug 804319 in src:pyflakes "Package split missing proper Breaks/Replaces" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/804319
<barry> reviewed various sil2100 si server branches
<barry> LP: #1512323; LP: #1386302
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1512323 in Canonical System Image "Cannot flash devices with devel-proposed/ubuntu - hangs on manufacturer's logo during flashing process" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512323
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1386302 in Ubuntu system image "Provide ability to specify a target system image revision" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386302
<barry> --done--
<tdaitx> Short week: resting on Monday
<tdaitx> Current/Past
<tdaitx> - Sprint! Yay!
<tdaitx> - Creating packages for TCK data and service setup; will complement with charms for runtime setup
<tdaitx> - Testing LP: #1512760 fix
<tdaitx> - Discussion and research into apache-commons/xalan/openjdk de-serialization vulnerabilities
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1512760 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Java applications leaks shmem chunks" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512760
<tdaitx> - Trying to reproduce LP: #1497816 (might need unity, no problem in i3)
<tdaitx> Next steps
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1497816 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "No support for HDPI/retina displays in Java 7/8" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1497816
<tdaitx> - continue working on TCK packaging and charms
<tdaitx> - figure out the right firewall settings for the porterbox charm
<tdaitx> - work on joda-time and freeipmi merges, then move to squid3
<tdaitx> - verify OpenJDK 6 TLS patch (LP: #1482924)
<tdaitx> Waiting/On hold
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1482924 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Regressions due to USN-2696-1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1482924
<tdaitx> - waiting OCA to submit webrevs for 7093640 backport (set TLS 1.1 as default for JDK 6 and TLS 1.2 as default for JDK 7); not blocking anything for now, just waiting
<tdaitx> Extra
<tdaitx> - moving to new SSD, EFI snafu required some hustling but it is working somehow; setting up stuff to look good... err... not tiny on wqhd display
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> oh, you said the three letter word
 * pitti prods robru
 * pitti declares timeout and jumps the queue
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - rework to only install selected packages from -proposed, and fix some fallout (#1503150)
<pitti>  - detect apt-get DNS/download errors and retry/tmpfail on those instead of failing the test
<pitti>  - robustify handling of tmpfails in the workers
<pitti>  - update documentation on the wiki
<pitti>  - in progress: create script to run britney locally, for robru's bileto integration
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - lots of -proposed cleanup and maintenance, catching up after sprint
<pitti>  - write https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration/TestClassesSpec for introducing testing on real hw and improving kernel testing
<pitti>  - learn about lxd, some experiments how we could set up armhf testing in scalingstack
<pitti>  - some systemd debugging and fixing
<pitti> [imagine fancy "done" UTF-8 char here]
<caribou> robru: want to recover your spot ?
<tdaitx> cyphermox, wait, was that me? what 3 letter word?
<slangasek> caribou: go ahead
<infinity> tdaitx: EFI.
<slangasek> caribou: "EFI" :)
<tdaitx> lol
<slangasek> er tdaitx, yes
<caribou> Short week due to time off & civil holiday
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou> - Precise SAN/LVM boot hang Testing Trusty's backport to Precise
<caribou> Xenial upgrade :
<caribou> - Issue caused by missing kernel-image-extra-4.2.0.18-generic package Missing package is being uploaded
<caribou> (done)
<chiluk> o/ I'll even give an update today.
<chiluk> Waiting for upload approval, and then SRU approval for trusty coreutils for (LP: 1432871)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1432871 in coreutils (Ubuntu Trusty) "`df` shows bind mounts instead of real mounts." [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1432871
<chiluk> nfsutils is in proposed and has been verified. (LP: 1509120)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1509120 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu Trusty) "Process accounting deadlock with idmapd callout when writing to NFSv4 mount" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1509120
<chiluk> Working a separate major backport for findutils (LP: 1347788)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347788 in findutils (Ubuntu) "find crashed when current working directory is not readable and -exec or -execdir used" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347788
<chiluk> Doing some snappy education.
<chiluk> Looking forward to being voted on for Contributing Dev.
<chiluk> --done--
<slangasek> robru: around?
<cyphermox> chiluk: my rubber stamp is ready.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<infinity> cyphermox: Man, you should at least hear him out before you break out the "no" stamp.
<slangasek> ok then, anything else today?
<chiluk> thank you cyphermox but I prefer gold stars
<cyphermox> chiluk: robot pieces?
<infinity> slangasek: Next sprint!
<cyphermox> slangasek: no AOB from me
<infinity> Plan early, plan often.
<slangasek> infinity: a bit of planning has begun
<infinity> slangasek: With Leann & Co, or solo?
<cyphermox> isn't the next sprint in YUL?
<slangasek> infinity: & Co
<infinity> slangasek: Shiny.
<tdaitx> slangasek, in case we are having it around here, let me know if I can help somehow
<barry> dates asap of course :)
<infinity> tdaitx: If "around here" is London, I suspect you might get your wish.
<slangasek> tdaitx: as much as I'd like to, I think I might have a mutiny on my hands if we actually did it there :)
<slangasek> but if you have a venue in mind...
<tdaitx> mutiny? from this crew?
<barry> slangasek: i hear hawaii has wifi
<pitti> slangasek: we did have UBZ there (ubuntu below zero), not much mutiny then
<pitti> barry: I don't understand
<cyphermox> pitti: different there.
<pitti> barry: who needs wifi when he's got Hawaii?
<slangasek> pitti: that was when everyone was young and the airlines hadn't found ways to claw back 3cm of legroom from all passengers
<infinity> pitti: tdaitx is in Brazil, not Montreal. :P
<slangasek> ah yes, was talking about Brazil also :)
<slangasek> (so, more like UDU)
<pitti> oh, sorry, I saw YUL, but that was cyphermox
<slangasek> alrighty
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 12 16:18:10 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-12-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks!
<caribou> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<cyphermox> thanks
<sil2100> Thanks!
<infinity> UDU was good, but I only flew 45m to get there, so my opinion might be skewed.
<tdaitx> thank you all!
<pitti> cheers
<dholbach> UDU! :)
<chiluk> thanks ;*
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-13
<dupingping> hi, popey.
<dupingping> how a u today?
<popey> hello dupingping
<dupingping> yes, i'm here.
<dupingping> kp.archive.ubuntu.com is also ubuntu mirror?
<dupingping> I could not find it from https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archivemirrors
<dupingping> popey: are you in a meeting?
<popey> i am, yes.
<popey> dupingping, kp.archive.ubuntu.com just points to the main central archive servers, it's not a local mirror, which is why it's not listed on the archive mirrors page
<dupingping> yes, i understand.
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-14
<HaikuUser> hi... i wish ubuntu was more famous
<Guest58677>  wats +5519994589853 hacking
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-14
<tyhicks> hello
<jjohansen> \o
<mdeslaur> hi tyhicks
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 14 16:41:13 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> hello
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> this week:
<jdstrand> finalize various snappy interface PR reviews (I'm waiting on feedback)
<jdstrand> address feedback in 32bit binaries on 64bit snap-confine PR
<jdstrand> various snappy policy updates
<jdstrand> pick up dbus-app PR now that the snappy team is back
<jdstrand> start poking at network-namespace interface
<jdstrand> if have time, start implementing seccomp arg filtering policy that uses the arg filtering feature we implemented a long time ago
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> looks like sbeattie isn't here, so I'll go next
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<tyhicks> you're always second :)
<mdeslaur> oh, hrm, right
<mdeslaur> off-by-one
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> and I'm still working on ImageMagick
<mdeslaur> and I'm off on friday
<mdeslaur> and...that's all folks
<mdeslaur> err...who's after sbeattie?
<tyhicks> looks like sbeattie isn't here, so I'll go next
<mdeslaur> hehehe
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I've got some SRU team followup to do on the apparmor 14.04 SRU
<tyhicks> there's an eCryptfs issue that I need to at least look into
<tyhicks> and hopefully I can get a start on seccomp logging changes for snappy
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: go ahead
<tyhicks> oh, I had one more thing for snaps on 14.04
<tyhicks> I need to backport dbus unrequested reply protections to 14.04's dbus
<tyhicks> that's really it for me this time
<jjohansen> 'm working on bugs,
<jjohansen> I have the unix domain socket cross ns issue to do more testing on,
<jjohansen> the noisy logging of apparmor/.null files,
<jjohansen> several memory leaks due to reference counting,
<jjohansen> hopefully I'll have more info on 100026726
<jjohansen> and I also have ADT test failures to look into more
<jjohansen> and if I get time, upstreaming work
<jjohansen> thats it for me
<jjohansen> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week
<sarnold> and finally things feel back to normal after travels, so I'll probably return to the backlog of MIRs
<sarnold> that ought to be enough to keep me busy until the next release or sprint, so that's it for me :)
<sarnold> chrisccoulson?
<tyhicks> good idea before the next wave come in
<chrisccoulson> I've got a firefox update this week, and I also need to do a new oxide release
<chrisccoulson> I'll hopefully be carrying on with https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oxide/+spec/ubuntu-webview-implementation, although I'm currently bogged down with investigating a crash at the moment
<chrisccoulson> I think that's pretty much me done
<tyhicks> thanks chrisccoulson
<tyhicks> sbeattie: go ahead
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week
<sbeattie> I have openjdk-7 updates to test from tdaitx, and I need to finish up the python updates I was working on
<sbeattie> I have kernel signoffs to do, and some tooling work to do around the kernel update process as well
<sbeattie> I need to get back to apparmor stuff, too
<sbeattie> that's probably more than enough for this week
<sbeattie> tyhicks: back to you
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-ws.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tomboy.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/wss4j.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/jquery-jplayer.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/flatnuke.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 14 16:56:29 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-14-16.41.moin.txt
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-15
<jgrimm> o/
<powersj> o/
<rharper> o/
<jgrimm> beisner has a conflict so i'll chair again
<rbasak> o/
<jgrimm> unless anyone else wants to volunteer?
<jgrimm> <crickets> :)
<nacc> o/
<nacc> sorry for being a bit late
<jgrimm> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 15 16:02:56 2016 UTC.  The chair is jgrimm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<jgrimm> no worries, light turnout today it looks like
<jgrimm> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jgrimm> (jgrimm) email jamepage -> checkin with old iscsitarget users on relevancy with new kernels
<jgrimm> not done. :/   will get that sent out today so this action can finally go away
<jgrimm> (jgrimm) email to ubuntu-devel about powerpc arch future.
<jgrimm> i held off on doing this ^^  as the tech board has picked this up
<smoser> o/
<jgrimm> and is in the process of talking to powerpc interested parties to see whether they'll pick up and own burden of the work (as debian is dropping the arch)
<jgrimm> so i'm going to treat that one as done, except to watch what happens at the TB
<jgrimm> #link https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/11/08/%23ubuntu-meeting-2.txt
<jgrimm> if interested ^^
<jgrimm> #topic Zesty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Zesty Development
<jgrimm> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<jgrimm> thank you for everyone that updated the blueprint and snagged workitems already
<jgrimm> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<jgrimm> is there anything anyone wants to discuss with zesty?
<rharper> jgrimm: that Zesty link doesn't get to a schedule for me
<jgrimm> oh
<powersj> don't think the page has been created yet
<rharper> yeah, odd
<powersj> most of the zesty pages were not up when I updated links
<rharper> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/DraftReleaseSchedule
<jgrimm> yeah, i assumed it would be updated by now
<jgrimm> thanks rharper
<jgrimm> anyway, back to discussion, anything?
<rharper> nothing for me
<jgrimm> a good number of merges being worked, happy to see that
<jgrimm> and i know cpaelzer has worked out plans around libvirt & qemu merges
<rharper> jgrimm: oh, the /boot work is being done by foundations (xnox has the task)  ; in particular, /boot isn't needed for lvm installs
<jgrimm> rharper, cool, we can just track it then
<rharper> bug 1639801
<ubottu> bug 1639801 in partman-auto-lvm (Ubuntu) "we should not create separate /boot partition for LVM+GRUB" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1639801
<rharper> yeah
<jgrimm> thanks!!
<xnox> rharper, done, celebrated on http://blog.surgut.co.uk/2016/11/boot-less-lvm-rootfs-in-zesty.html
<xnox> please +1 on google plus too
<rharper> xnox: \o/
<jgrimm> xnox, nice!! \o/
<xnox> rharper, info if ppc64el can boot off LVM is needed though. I am suspecting that it might be possible to enable ppc64el as well.
<xnox> i doubt that arm* with u-boot can do it, generically on all boards.
<rharper> i think if they can multipath, they should be able to lvm
<jgrimm> xnox, maybe engage folks  that hang out on #ubuntu-powerpc?
<rharper> we can certainly poke IBM for petiteboot changes if needed (it's linux anyhow)
<xnox> well, multipath is "pick any, and use readonly" they look the same.
<xnox> jgrimm, oooh, that's a thought.
<smoser> xnox, well, ppc64el boots via either grub2 or petitboot
<jgrimm> ibmers hanging out there that should know
<smoser> grub2 probably does work, id' be surprised if it had arch specific errors.
<smoser> petitboot i dont know.
<jgrimm> anything else?
<jgrimm> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jgrimm> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> a couple new ones on that list that i haven't read yet
<cpaelzer> late o/ (needed all screens for a huge three way diff - sorry)
<cpaelzer> thanks jgrimm for covering me
<jgrimm> looks like they have owners, so i'll leave them alone
<jgrimm> no worres cpaelzer
<jgrimm> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<jgrimm> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<caribou> Active SRU list :
<caribou>  LP: #1447715 - dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou>  LP: #1515278 - [SRU] rabbit queues should expire when unused
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1515278 in oslo.messaging (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] rabbit queues should expire when unused" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1515278
<caribou> LP: #1640275 - move nvme driver to linux-image
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou>  LP: #1640382 - Segfault event notifier because of race condition
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640275 in linux (Ubuntu Trusty) "move nvme driver to linux-image" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640275
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640382 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<caribou> LP: #1640676 - libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu Trusty) "libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<caribou> these are the current SRU we have ongoing
<caribou> anything from the server team we should be aware of ?
<jgrimm> thanks caribou.  i'll give a bit for folks to digest and/or ask questions
<cpaelzer> caribou: does that mean you or the STS Team in general are looking into fixing 1640676?
<caribou> cpaelzer: I would say yes, but let me confirm
<jgrimm> nacc, rbasak, cpaelzer: any SRUs in process that STS should be aware of?
<nacc> i will have one for bind9 i think
<cpaelzer> bug 1633220 in proposed waiting for the reporter to check
<ubottu> bug 1633220 in dovecot (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Dovecot panics when sieve filter outputs much data" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633220
<nacc> LP: #1536181
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1536181 in bind9 (Ubuntu Yakkety) "bind9-resolvconf service doesn't work" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1536181
<nacc> I just imported it last night to use the drive-by process
<cpaelzer> bug 1640805 waiting for spnsoring into Trusty
<ubottu> bug 1640805 in sssd (Ubuntu) "SSSD authentication fails after upgrade to 1.11.8-0ubuntu0.2" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640805
<caribou> cpaelzer: I'll come back to you on LP: #1640676
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu Trusty) "libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<jgrimm> I need to get back to this one, fixed in debian, so will see if it can be SRU'd: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/postfix/+bug/1595096
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1595096 in postfix (Ubuntu Xenial) "cannot create multi postfix instance by postmulti command" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> caribou: I might be EOD in a bit but happy to read whatever you find on it tomorrow morning in my log then - thank you
<jgrimm> anyone else?
<caribou> cpaelzer: sure, no worry
<jgrimm> moving along, thanks folks
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Continued work on cloud-init integration, have actual tests running on our jenkins. Will add more tests for more modules this week.  Otherwise a bit of work with cpaelzer on qemu/libvirt live migration and "hardening" of jenkins jobs some are a little fragile
<cpaelzer> and work on the s390x node
<jgrimm> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> ah yes cpaelzer thank you!
<powersj> although tests don't seem happy there, so we will talk thursday
<jgrimm> questions for powersj?
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<jgrimm> moving on
<jgrimm> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<jgrimm> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<jgrimm> nothing
<jgrimm> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jgrimm> #link http://summit.ubuntu.com/
<jgrimm> ^^ going on now
<jgrimm> of possible interest to folks is the git-based workflow session by nacc & rbasak
<jgrimm> #link http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1611/meeting/22710/git-based-merge-workflow/
<powersj> that is in 90mins?
<nacc> yeah
<powersj> sweet
<jgrimm> Yes, 1800 UTC
<rharper> date -d "18:00 UTC"
<jgrimm> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<jgrimm> cloud-init SRU status?
<jgrimm> smoser, ^^
<smoser> jgrimm, i pinged slangasek .. hoping to talk to him today
<jgrimm> pinged meaning its ready to go? or needing to discuss yet?
<smoser> rharper and i think that it shoudl be fine, but wanted to see what issues slangasek saw, or what he wnated me to do.
<rharper> it's ready
<jgrimm> ok good, that one's hot.
<jgrimm> other open discussion?
<smoser> i'm fairly sure we do not regress anything. the only thing would be a system with cloud-init and systemd-networkd which probably didnt work that well already.
<rharper> powersj: I propose we look at figuring out some systemcd unit ordering tests; smoser and I have a few scenarios that we can describe
<jgrimm> smoser, but that sounds like a follow-up bug then?
<rharper> jgrimm: the bug is already open
<jgrimm> ok, good.
<rharper> there is an upstream issue with networkd and dbus
<jgrimm> ack, i know that one
<rharper> we might see if pitti wants to branch that separate issue off from cloud-init related
<powersj> rharper: will you send me bug # so I can get context
<rharper> it turns out that networkd wasn't fully baked w.r.t running super early (ie before dbus.service )
<rharper> powersj: yes, on sec
<rharper> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1636912
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636912 in systemd (Ubuntu Xenial) "systemd-networkd runs too late for cloud-init.service (net)" [High,Triaged]
<smoser> http://pad.ubuntu.com/tMdgYGEvgL <-- has more ifno
<powersj> thank you
<rharper> there's quite a bit in there
<rharper> but the last update from pitti I think captures what remains
<jgrimm> thanks folks
<jgrimm> any other discussion
<jgrimm> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<jgrimm> same time/channel.  as beisner has a standing conflict will move on to next
<jgrimm> will be thedac or possibly cpaelzer
<jgrimm> as its possible thedac has the same conflict as beisner
<beisner> thanks jgrimm
<jgrimm> np sir
<jgrimm> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 15 16:37:17 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-15-16.02.moin.txt
<thedac> jgrimm: yes, I need to remove myself from that list, sorry.
<nacc> jgrimm: thanks!
<jgrimm> no worries at all!!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-17
<robru> o/
<pitti> \o
 * slangasek waves
<pitti> robru: right on time -- I *just* got your PPA britney branch working
<sil2100> o/
<robru> nice
<caribou> \o
<cyphermox> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 16:02:41 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> sil2100 robru xnox slangasek bdmurray barry tdaitx chiluk cyphermox mwhudson caribou infinity doko pitti
<slangasek> aaaand go!
<sil2100> uuuuh
<xnox> hello
<sil2100> Ok
<pitti> /o\
<robru> woohoo
<sil2100> - Had a national holiday on Friday
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Making the OTA-14 images buildable, installable and bootable
<sil2100>   * Consensus: people don't bump version dependencies
<sil2100>   * Cherry-picking and building single fixes fixes
<sil2100>   * Investigating crashes on the images, working out missing dependencies
<sil2100> - Working on ubuntu-image
<sil2100> - Preparing the dbus workaround for SRU
<sil2100> - Preparing test packages for a real-fix attempt of the dbus systemd-logind ssh issue
<sil2100> - ubuntu-touch-session merge reviews
<sil2100> - Looking into some sync-requests
<sil2100> (done)
<robru> (1/10) lp:bileto
<robru> (2/10) * snap support: linkify recipes, scan builds for built snaps
<robru> (3/10) * more ui tweaks
<robru> (4/10) * drop old v1 api
<robru> (5/10) * split qa_signoff field into two fields: one user-set and one bileto-controlled (fixes forcing "qa ready" on tickets without stupid hacky workarounds)
<robru> (6/10) lp:britney
<robru> (7/10) * finished source ppa grouping
<robru> (8/10) lp:phablet-tools
<robru> (9/10) * Fix zesty FTBFS
<robru> (10/10) (done)
<xnox> Resolved loading ibmca ecrypto engines with openssl. Bug #1605511
<xnox> Prepared and uploaded SRUs for above
<xnox> Downgraded libopkele to openssl1.0
<xnox> Given how slow 1.1 transition is going, very glad to stick to 1.0
<xnox> Finishing partman-swapfile module should hit NEW today/tomorrow
<xnox> Attended mini Debconf UK in Cambridge, was fun, Japanese ARM did not sponsor sushi.
<ubottu> bug 1605511 in openssl-ibmca (Ubuntu Yakkety) "openssl engine error if trying to exploit hw crypto on z due to library issue" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1605511
<xnox> zua rebasing.
<xnox> done.
<xnox> (minidebconf was over the weekend sat/sun)
<slangasek>  * high-priority SRU reviews: cloud-init, glibc
<slangasek>  * kernel SRU processing
<slangasek>  * discussions around subiquity for 17.04
<slangasek>  * ubuntu-image support for devmode snaps (LP: #1641132)
<slangasek>  * ubuntu-image discussion about mbr vs. gpt
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1641132 in Snappy "no way to include devmode snaps in snap prepare-image?" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641132
<slangasek>  * sorting out conference travel approvals for after the first of the year
<slangasek> (done)
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy and apport updated in staging ET
<bdmurray> verified daisy and apport updated in staging ET
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy and apport updated in production ET
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have errors code updated in staging (show zesty)
<bdmurray> merged my apport-retrace corefile change to trunk
<bdmurray> SRU verification of unattended-upgrades for X and Y
<bdmurray> backported / uploaded X, Y fix for update-notifier LP: #1640318
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640318 in update-notifier (Ubuntu Yakkety) "/usr/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloader:OSError:process_download_requests:/usr/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloader@305:process_download_requests:print_exc:print_exception" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640318
<bdmurray> research into ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1640645
<bdmurray> release upgrade bug triage
<bdmurray> more Seville travel arrangements
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640645 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "free space check doesn't take into account kernel upgrades" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640645
<bdmurray> â done
<barry> ubuntu-image: fix sbuilds; LP: #1631156 (ongoing); LP: #1640523; review sil2100 branches; LP: #1638926; LP: #1640215; LP: #1638660 (discussion); LP: #1642427
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1631156 in Ubuntu Image "flake8.extension entry point has global ramifications" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1631156
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640523 in Ubuntu Image "Parse integer-like YAML values as strings" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640523
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638926 in Ubuntu Image "Support `format` key" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640215 in Ubuntu Image "Fix Launchpad snap recipe" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640215
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638660 in Ubuntu Image "Support `role` key in gadget.yaml" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638660
<barry> debuntu: python-webencodings 0.5-1, claws-mail 3.14.1-1 & zesty failures (LP: #1640217); python-virtualenv 15.0.3+ds-3; LP: #1623856; debian bug #754248; reviews of pytest-expect & html5lib changes for detrout; html5lib  0.999999999-1; tox 2.5.0-1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640217 in claws-mail (Ubuntu) "python.so plugin fails to load under Zesty" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640217
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1623856 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu) "Scrolled Windows in update-manager are too small to read" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1623856
<ubottu> Debian bug 754248 in python-virtualenv "python-virtualenv: âValueError: zero length field name in formatâ when creating virtualenv" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/754248
<barry> other: UOS; LP: #1641976; travel & conference arrangements
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1630774 in linux (Ubuntu Yakkety) "duplicate for #1641976 kernel invalid opcode in intel_powerclamp" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1630774
<barry> --done--
<sil2100> That's a lot of bugs!
 * barry is the Bug Squashor
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<slangasek> chiluk: how about you?
<slangasek> cyphermox: you win!
<cyphermox> yay
<cyphermox> - finished debugging JFS on ppc64el
<cyphermox>  - apparently no such issues on amd64
<cyphermox> - more SRU testing for the shim update
<cyphermox> - sponsored tribaal's grub changes for initrd-less booting (LP: #1640878)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640878 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub2 cannot currently generate configuration without initrd" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640878
<cyphermox> - hacking at prep-bootdev (a utility that finds what partition is a PReP partition) to properly handle some multipath cases. (LP: #1641567)
<cyphermox>  - multipath is still a deep hole where everything is half-broken
<cyphermox>  - prep-bootdev should be split out into its own package, since we carry two diverging copies (in grub2 and grub-installer)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1641567 in grub2 (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Fail to install the proposed grub-ieee1275 package (2.02~beta2-9)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641567
<cyphermox> - cat-herding for various in-flight SRUs
<cyphermox> - subiquity discussions
<chiluk> sorry slangasek... pre-occupied / sprinting
<cyphermox> - revised and automated publishing the armhf+raspi2 preinstalled image w/ slangasek.
<cyphermox> - fixing open-iscsi tests so it eventually transitions...
<cyphermox> ^D
<caribou> Bank holiday on friday & sprinting this week, so  nothing to report
<caribou> (done)
<chiluk> slangasek check back in december.
<doko> barry: python-webencodings needs a MIR
<chiluk> november is dead to me.
<barry> doko: ack
<slangasek> chiluk: ok :)
<bdmurray> chiluk: but thanksgiving!
<cyphermox> bdmurray: thanksgiving was in october!
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - gcc-6 and gcc-7 updates
<doko> - catch up on the cross toolchain, preparing new uploads
<doko> - binutils updates, fixed regression on ARM32
<doko> - openjdk-7 PPA builds, openjdk-9 update
<doko> - merges, MIRs, NEW processing, ...
<doko> - mono transition finished, after fixing ftbfs with the Debian maintainer
<doko> - gdb update for POWER9
<doko> - bash update to fix reported regression
<doko> - intending to start a first test rebuild next week
<doko> (done)
<xnox> I got beans, greens, potatoes.... ?!
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti> - Allow specifying testname for github requests (#1641831)
<pitti> - Fix PPA addition setup command failure with bash 4.4
<pitti> - Fix patch application with unbuilt trees (Debian #844454)
<pitti> - Fix ssh runner failure with bash 4.4
<pitti> - britney: review https://code.launchpad.net/~robru/britney/+git/britney2-ubuntu/+merge/307995 and investigate race condition (ongoing)
<pitti> systemd:
<ubottu> Debian bug 844454 in autopkgtest "autopkgtest: does not apply quilt patches when running tests from source package directory" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/844454
<pitti> - Clean up duplicate ctrl-alt-del.target symlink (Debian #844039)
<pitti> - Improve disabling of persistent interface names to avoid breaking driver matching
<pitti> - Investigate running networkd early for cloud-init (#1636912)
<pitti> - Make seccomp tests stricter, now that we have it available on all architectures; provide libseccomp xenial backport to fix upstream CI
<ubottu> Debian bug 844039 in systemd "ctrl-alt-del.target symlink is shipped twice in /etc and /lib" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/844039
<pitti> netplan: Investigate moving an "up" interface into a bridge (needed by MaaS); this uncovered https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/4674 which I'm investigating
<pitti> distro:
<pitti> - libseccomp: Fix too lax dependencies (Debian #844496)
<pitti> - lightdm: Fix lingering greeter session components (#1637758), waiting for Robert to review
<pitti> - merges: gnutls28, util-linux
<ubottu> Debian bug 844496 in libseccomp "seccomp "Invalid argument" due to old library version" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/844496
<pitti> - Backport "indefinite number of loop devices" support to trusty for snappy (#1640823)
<pitti> - Investigate linux 4.9/i386 boot failure (#1642192)
<pitti> misc:
<pitti> - Prepare and hold UOS netplan talk/session
<pitti> - Teach seb128 about language pack code and operation, to bump bus factor to > 1
<pitti> (EOF)
<chiluk> bdmurray that's precisely why I'm awol for the rest of november.. then another sprint the week after thanksgiving
 * sil2100 knows langpack-o-matic too
<pitti> sil2100: indeed -- so > 2 then even! :-)
<sil2100> But not the language-pack parts, just the l-o-m mechanics
<sil2100> So I guess still > 1 ;p
<slangasek> tdaitx: here?
<slangasek> ok, any questions on status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Sprint agenda
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Sprint agenda
<slangasek> google doc, please add your topics here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kb3TJRLP8ItOE08JvtK9PQhauTX_DIVLCPgYRz2Oz7I/edit
<slangasek> and I see that people are, excellent ;)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> any other business today?
<cyphermox> caribou: will you be at Seville?
<sil2100> pitti: I'll poke you to learn about the langpack internals too in some time maybe, since because I know the l-o-m parts maybe it would be a bit less knowledge for me to learn now
<barry> short week next week w/usa thanksgiving
<caribou> cyphermox: not planned
<cyphermox> caribou: ack
<slangasek> sadly no; this sprint was a bit rough in its organization, not many "guest" attendees
<caribou> cyphermox: didn't know if it was the Foundation, security & kernel sprint
<pitti> sil2100: sure! maybe we can set aside some time in Seville for that?
<cyphermox> caribou: it's fine, I was curious so we could discuss multipath, but it's not a big deal
<bdmurray> Do we have any plans / date for a 16.04.2 release?
<slangasek> bdmurray: infinity didn't answer you on that?  I'll get that pinned down this week then
<tdaitx> slangasek, here
<tdaitx> sorry for being late
<caribou> slangasek: it's the CDO core sprint, right ? same thing as the Foundation, security & kernel one ?
<slangasek> tdaitx: hi, give us a quick status?
<tdaitx> sure
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK Updates
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 7 regression confirmed, some applets stopped working (Debian #843784)
<tdaitx>   - Packaged new IcedTea 2.6.8 released and confirmed it is not affected by the regression
<tdaitx>   - Investigate what caused it exactly, bisecting the set of patches pointed me to S8155973
<tdaitx>   - Now comparing my backport to IcedTea's to see what went wrong (ongoing)
<ubottu> Debian bug 843784 in openjdk-7-jre "openjdk-7-jre: After last security update, icedtea-plugin fails all applets" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/843784
<tdaitx> * Doko also packaged IcedTea 2.6.8 and released it for Debian (7u121-2.6.8-1)
<tdaitx>   - Dropped my package and backported doko's package to Trusty and Precise
<tdaitx> * Finished uscan/repack work for OpenJDK 7 during the weekend
<tdaitx>   - provided patches to fully enable MUT and avoid repackaging the icedtea tarball (LP: #1642420)
<slangasek> caribou: CDO core sprint is similar in structure but different set of teams attending
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1642420 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Enable OpenJDK update through uscan" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1642420
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8 test failures are due to misconfigured tests
<tdaitx>   - Tests that don't support the agentvm mode must indicate that
<tdaitx>   - Adding othervm flag fixed them
<xnox> caribou, apart from without security & kernel =) and with CPC and more cloudy folks =)
<tdaitx>   - Need to open issue upstream (ongoing)
<tdaitx> * Tested Hotspot 24 (from OpenJDK 7) on OpenJDK 6 during the weekend
<tdaitx>   - Requires quite a few changes, but works
<tdaitx>   - Rebuild quite a few OpenJDK 6 dependent packages on Precise to confirm it works; pylucene on powerpc (ie. using zero) was the single failure I got (complains about stack size)
<tdaitx> * Back working on OpenJDK 6 security backport now that regressions are dealt with (ongoing)
<tdaitx> :wq
<cyphermox> speaking of a date for 16.04.2, we still don't have a ReleaseSchedule page for Zesty.
<caribou> xnox: that's what I thought, hence why I didn't pay too much attention to it
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I think we do
<cyphermox> I wrote up a quick DraftReleaseSchedule (because I was asked about general schedule) but it's not clear to me that all the dates are correct.
<xnox> slangasek, is there more 16.04.2 planning to discuss at the sprint: w.r.t. hwe stacks
<slangasek> tdaitx: the failing openjdk 8 tests were jtreg tests?
<cyphermox> bdmurray: ah?
<bdmurray> cyphermox: yeah, its called DraftReleaseSchedule. ;-)
<slangasek> xnox: I wouldn't have thought so, but what do you have in mind?
<cyphermox> woops.
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I didn't realize you'd done that.
<cyphermox> bdmurray: then maybe we can just look at that and make sure that's not Draft anymore.
<tdaitx> slangasek, yes, same as we talked over our last meeting, tests that used to pass but then failed when I changed the way we ran jtreg
<slangasek> bdmurray, cyphermox: yes, we'll get 16.04.2 and zesty both sorted
<slangasek> tdaitx: ok
<cyphermox> cool.
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 16:27:18 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-17-16.02.moin.txt
<barry> thanks!
<caribou> thanks!
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<tdaitx> thanks!
<pitti> thanks all!
 * genii sweeps and mops the meeting hall, straightens out all the chairs and cleans the coffee machine
<sil2100> o/
<pitti> genii: what, no candy refill?
 * genii puts jellybeans in the snack dishes
<pitti> \o/
<pitti> genii: â¥
<genii> Hehe
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-18
<Kilos> ok  ty and you?
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-13
<jdstrand> slangasek: hi! I was trying to use official instructions for creating a bootable usb (desktop). from ubuntu.com I ended up here: https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-install-ubuntu-desktop (fine)
<jdstrand> slangasek: at the bottom it says: "We also have several tutorials that explain how to create an Ubuntu DVD or USB flash drive." which is a link to https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/
<jdstrand> slangasek: while https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-create-a-usb-stick-on-ubuntu is located in the middle of the tutorials url, seems like this and the others could be more easily found (as opposed to dropping to the toplevel tutorials page)
<davidcalle> jdstrand: +1
<davidcalle> (sorry for jumping in, I had a highlight)
<davidcalle> (and I can fix this quickly)
<jdstrand> davidcalle: thanks! :)
<jdstrand> I was a little surprised to see startup disk creator referenced, since I thought it wasn't maintained and that dd was the preferred way, but I'm hardly up to date on the subject
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: I fixed up startup disk creator a while ago
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: it used dd itself now
<mdeslaur> s/used/uses/
<mdeslaur> #o
<mdeslaur> whoops
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 13 16:36:01 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<leosilva> o/
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: go ahead and we'll circle back to jdstrand
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I have a bunch of security fake syncs to do from debian
<mdeslaur> and I need to release some postgresql updates
<mdeslaur> I'll pick something up from the list after that
 * jdstrand is here now
<mdeslaur> I also have to see why none of my bionic packages are migrating
<mdeslaur> autopkgdos
<mdeslaur> that's about it, jdstrand, you're up
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> This week I plan to:
<jdstrand> * perform snapd reviews. A lot came in last week and I suspect this will take most of my time. This includes, but is not limited to, reviews pertaining to layouts
<jdstrand> * pickup the ssh/gpg interfaces PR since I recently got feedback on it
<jdstrand> * investigate/implement proper fix for hotplugged devices not being added to device cgroup (mir input forum issue)
<jdstrand> * pickup uid/gid work as have time (though I don't expect to get to it)
<jdstrand> that's it from me. sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on bug triage this week
<sbeattie> I'm researching doing cve triage and notifications for snaps
<sbeattie> I have some upstream apparmor work to do
<sbeattie> I'll also have the usual kernel cve triage bits, as well as a potential openjdk-7 update to publish
<sbeattie> that's probably it for me. tyhicks?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: re dd> that is what I thought, but ps didn't show that, so, weird (maybe I did it too late and after dd was done)
<jdstrand> also, why did I bring that up in this channel?
<jdstrand> I expect answers :P
<tyhicks> I'm on CVE triage this week
<tyhicks> I have an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> I need to get final clarification on AppArmor audit even ID numbers so that chrisccoulson can begin work on that
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: oh, actually, it doesn't use dd, I reimplemented the same thing dd basically does in the dbus service
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: sorry, it was a while ago
<tyhicks> and I'll be working on squashfs reproduceability
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I totally forgot you did anything with usb creator :)
<jjohansen> I am working on getting together the 4.15 apparmor pull
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: me too :)
<jdstrand> hehe
<tyhicks> ah, I have to send the 4.15 ecryptfs pull request but the hard work is already done
 * jdstrand has a question for jjohansen when he's done
<jjohansen> I have a couple of bugs, I am looking at that I would like to get in
<jjohansen> I have to get out the policy versioning proposal
<jjohansen> I have some more LSM stacking work/replies to do
<jjohansen> and I really need to get a pass done on the mount rework, that I promised to look at more than a month ago
<jjohansen> thats is more than enough for the week
<jjohansen> jdstrand: your Q?
<jdstrand> jjohansen: I just wanted to make sure you saw https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapd-2-27-6-2-in-debian-sid-blocked-on-apparmor-in-kernel-4-13-0-1/2813. upstream 4.13 in Debian is denying something that 4.13 Ubuntu does not seem to be
<jdstrand> so, perhaps add that to your list of bugs to investigate? if you need me to help with it, let me know (we don't have to discuss here)
<jjohansen> jdstrand: ack, I haven't looked at that so it can go on the list
<jjohansen> tyhicks: back to you
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead
<sarnold> niemeyer's conclusions about what should and should not require ptrace isn't really a bug -- the kernel will call resources by whatever names it pleases.
<jdstrand> sure
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week, working on an embargoed code review; it's large enough project that it could realistically grow to consume the whole week unless there's other priorities
<sarnold> I'll alsotry to be responsive to apparmor patches
<jdstrand> my point is that there is a difference between 4.13/upstream and 4.13/ubuntu
<sarnold> and that's a fine point to make :) hehe
<jdstrand> :)
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<leosilva> I think he's on the dentist, no?
<ratliff> chrisccoulson is away for now, so I'll go ahead
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week.
<ratliff> I will be entirely consumed by internally focused work.
<ratliff> on to you, leosilva
<leosilva> I'm the happy place this week :)
<leosilva> I have perl update to finish for esm.
<leosilva> After that I will hunting again.
<leosilva> that's it for me,
<tyhicks> thanks
<leosilva> tyhicks: it's back to you
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sanlock.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/zope2.13.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/flatnuke.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnome-shell.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-moment.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 13 16:57:37 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-13-16.36.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<slangasek> jdstrand: not sure why you're asking me about the tutorials.ubuntu.com content, or on this channel... :)  I don't think I have any control over that
<slangasek> jdstrand: but it sounds like maybe you've gotten it fixed?
<jdstrand> slangasek: I saw usb creator and thought you might have ideas on what you'd like to see. as for this channel, that is an excellent question :)
<jdstrand> slangasek: and yes, davidcalle is fixing it
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-14
<powersj> o/
<nacc> o/
<slashd> o/
<ahasenack> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 14 16:00:24 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> Today is a special meeting, as we're considering whether to change the format entirely.
<rbasak> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2017-November/007621.html
<rbasak> #link https://community.ubuntu.com/t/irc-meeting-office-hours/1491
<cpaelzer> late o/
<rbasak> Does anyone here have any further comment on it?
<rbasak> If not, we can proceed to a vote.
<slashd> rbasak, I like the idea
<ahasenack> so we will essentially hang out in #ubuntu-server, where we already are
<rbasak> Right
<cpaelzer> what was sync'ed here so far works there as well - I like the chance for wider participation (if other people on #ubuntu-server) see the discussion
<ahasenack> but at this time of day we will be hosting this office-hours
<ahasenack> will we have an agenda? Maybe just something interesting that happened in the past week that we would like to highlight?
<ahasenack> no agendas I suppose
<rbasak> OK, looks like everyone is genreally in favour.
<cpaelzer> no agendas, everybody can bring his own agenda
<ahasenack> as we don't want to move the meeting to just another irc channel
<rbasak> I suggest that we vote on moving it, and if successful, we just switch to office hours in #ubuntu-server immediately to conduct any other business.
<cpaelzer> in case needed we spontanously elect one of the team to moderate
<rbasak> (so skipping the agenda)
<ahasenack> ok
<rbasak> #vote Switch IRC meeting to office hours as per dpb's proposal
<meetingology> Please vote on: Switch IRC meeting to office hours as per dpb's proposal
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<nacc> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nacc
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<smb> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from smb
<powersj> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from powersj
<cpaelzer> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cpaelzer
<ahasenack> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ahasenack
<rbasak> Looks like we're unanimous
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Switch IRC meeting to office hours as per dpb's proposal
<meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> So we're done! Let's move over to #ubuntu-server now then, and conduct office hours there.
<rbasak> Thanks all
 * rbasak ends the last ever ubuntu-server meeting
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 14 16:07:35 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-14-16.00.moin.txt
<powersj> o/
<ahasenack> bye meetingology
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-15
<elacheche> catbus: Hey!
<catbus> elacheche: Hi
<elacheche> We need 4 persons from the umb to start the meeting, nzoueidi is here
<elacheche> so we should wait for 2 otjers at least
<popey> o/
<catbus> elacheche: it's 18 minutes past the hour. I can continue to wait if there is some chance enough people from the board will join.
<nzoueidi> Hello catbus unfortunately, we didn't met the quorum to vote on your application. Thus, we will vote using the maillist of the Ubuntu Board Membership.
<catbus> nzoueidi: OK. What do I need to do?
<nzoueidi> Nothing, I will open a thread inculding your application and we will vote using the ML, you will be in the CC, so you will got the vote and if there is any questions.
<nzoueidi> Sorry for that and good luck :)
<catbus> nzoueidi: ok, thanks!
<nzoueidi> You are welcome.
 * catbus goes back to bed. it's 4:30am. 
<catbus> bye
<nzoueidi> Oups, good night o/
<elacheche>  /Q nzoueidi
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-16
<rbalint> o/
<infinity> *grunt*
<philroche> \o
<cyphermox> ãã¯ãã
<philroche> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 16 16:07:39 2017 UTC.  The chair is philroche. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<philroche> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<philroche> echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<philroche> rcj infinity doko bdmurray mwhudson xnox philroche rbalint sil2100 slangasek fginther cyphermox tribaal Odd_Bloke tdaitx
<rcj> rcj:
 * sil2100 needs time
<rcj> * took 2 days vacation and drove 1,800 miles
<rcj> * automated build work for cloud images
 * rcj stalls for time
<rcj> * meeting with partners
<rcj> (done)
<philroche> infinity:
<infinity> * Mostly sick and grumpy this week, plus VAC on Monday
<infinity>   - Examine some build failures
<infinity>   - Looking into HWE SRU reviews
<infinity>   - Getting started on glibc CI for 2.27
<infinity>   - Probably other stuff I've forgotten
<infinity> (done)
<philroche> doko:
<doko> - pythonqt bus errors on armhf
<doko> - looking at ruby-mysql2 bus errors on armhf
<doko> - xerces-c transition
<doko> - http-parser transition
<doko> - rpm transition
<doko> - armadillo transition
<doko> - fixing build failures ...
<doko> - binutils fix for haskell arm64
<doko> - gcc update
<doko> - ruby2.3 / ruby2.5 test failures, ftbfs
<doko> - samba merge
<doko> - more glibc xlocale.h ftbfs
<doko> (done)
<philroche> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> switched all LP retracers to xenial chroots
<bdmurray> updated oops-repository packaging recipe and branch for 16.04
<bdmurray> further testing, fixing of ET mojo spec (packages) for xenial
<bdmurray> irc discussion re indicator-printers SRU review and LP: #1703046
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1703046 in indicator-printers (Ubuntu) "indicator-printers-service crashed with SIGSEGV in __GI_____strtol_l_internal()" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1703046
<bdmurray> worked with security team regarding apport CVEs
<bdmurray> uploaded apport w/ CVE fix to bionic
<bdmurray> pushed apport CVE changes to trunk
<bdmurray> investigation into LTS point releases and jigdo files
<bdmurray> â done
<philroche> xnox:
<xnox> * merges
<xnox> * work on figuring out outstanding adt failures for systemd
<xnox> * nudging postgresql transition a bit; which is entangled with migration of doom (icu)
<xnox> * upstreaming NM resolved change
<xnox> * upstreaming to debian qemu building s390 firmware
<xnox> * talking about zvm cloud images, again
<xnox> * some image work for some people
<xnox> NEXT
<philroche> * Cloud images build system vanguard
<philroche> * Cloud images build system updates
<philroche> * Cloud partner image work
<philroche> (done)
<rbalint> * livecd-rootfs changes
<philroche> rbalint:
<rbalint> * taking care of MoM's merges under my name updating ldns and sudo (to be uploaded)
<rbalint> * became Core Dev :-)
<rbalint> * dmks changes to allow attaching pregenarated module signatures when they
<rbalint>   build reproducibly
<rbalint>   https://code.launchpad.net/~rbalint/ubuntu/+source/dkms/+git/dkms
<rbalint> * some things i can't list yet
<rbalint> (done)
<rbalint> --
<philroche> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Holiday-swap on Monday
<sil2100> - Regular SRU work
<sil2100> - Working on packages stuck in bionic-proposed (sqlalchemy, mysql-5.7 and others)
<sil2100> - Looking into getting rid of trust-store from pulseaudio to remove it from Ubuntu
<sil2100> - Candidate reviews
<sil2100> - Preliminary work on the mini.iso no-login-prompt thingy
<sil2100> - Shepherding the new livecd-rootfs for ubuntu-image 1.2
<sil2100> - And other stuff
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> (not enough time!)
<philroche> fginther:
<fginther> * Partner image work.
<fginther> * Image build system vanguard.
<fginther> (done)
<cyphermox> - review papi & pcp (bug LP: #1700827, bug LP: #1704130)
<cyphermox> - various discussions about netplan
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1700827 in pcp (Ubuntu) "[MIR] pcp package" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1700827
<cyphermox> - jenkins cpc code merge
<cyphermox> - klibc DOMAINSEARCH fix + SRU
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1704130 in papi (Ubuntu) "[MIR] papi" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1704130
<cyphermox> - netplan 0.32 (fix regression in UUID generation/fix autopkgtests)
<cyphermox> - systemd-networkd implementation of 'optional' keyword for wait-online
<cyphermox> - investigating d-i preseeding behavior for console-setup w/ Josh
<cyphermox> - digging into debconf/priority change between artful & bionic
<cyphermox> (done)
<Tribaal> * SRU'd livecd-rootfs changes for minimized images to  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/livecd-rootfs/+bug/1731492
<Tribaal> * Partner image work (as usual)
<Tribaal> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1731492 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Release "minimized round 2" changes to Xenial" [Undecided,New]
<philroche> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * Building OpenJDK 7 with 8u151 security backports, waiting to check build results
<tdaitx> * Rebuilding packages locally with OpenJDK 9 as default on bionic
<tdaitx> * Started working on subiquity proxy support while the other stuff builds
<tdaitx> * Looking for OpenJDK 8u151 regressions on errors.ubuntu.com, nothing new so far
<tdaitx> Other: away next Thursday/Friday for a Blues Festival
<tdaitx> (done)
<philroche> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<doko> we need to address our transition mess ...
<bdmurray> I'll miss next week's meeting
<bdmurray> because of Thanksgiving.
<doko> I don't think we get this done without freezing the archive for a while, and then people working towards this
<infinity> doko: What transitions are in flight now?
<doko> haskell and about 10-15 connected ones
<xnox> infinity, icu; postgresql; entagled with above, still.
<slangasek> wasn't libreoffice still the last big issue?
<infinity> Yeah, glad we started another icu right after finishing with icu.
<doko> hahaha
<slangasek> and there was no visible progress on that
<doko> so we wait and see more things piling up?
<doko> could the release team override the desktop team uploading the lo fix?
<slangasek> override?
<doko> afaiu it's a regression in hypenating a URL
<xnox> doko, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/1:5.4.2-0ubuntu3 ?
<xnox> doko, there seem to be an upload.... or is that still broken?
<slangasek> xnox: that's the one that's 8 days old and ftbfs on amd64
<doko> xnox: yes, just disable the tests as on other archs
 * xnox downloads the build log over shoelace connection
<doko> but with each day there are new transitions and new ftbfs ...
<Laney> that's far from being the last issue
<doko> but I can't keep up working on all new issues when new transitions arrive
<doko> slangasek, infinity, Laney: we can move that over to -release too
<sil2100> Anything else here?
<doko> should we open a bug to track issues?
<sil2100> I guess it might be an idead
<sil2100> *idea
<philroche> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 16 16:52:47 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-16-16.07.moin.txt
<elopio> flexiondotorg, elacheche, ahoneybun, jose, marcoceppi, wxl: are you going to join the meeting? It's in 5 minutes.
<flexiondotorg> o/
<wxl> i'll be late. i'm not at work until 930
<elacheche> I'll be there elopio
<elacheche> s/there/here
<elopio> alright. It's time, should we start?
<flexiondotorg> Who is here other than elopio and me?
<elacheche> Let's go
<flexiondotorg> ahoneybun jose wxl marcoceppi ?
<wxl> not til 930 for me. i'm here for a second but not much
<flexiondotorg> Well, we have three here and one on the way.
<flexiondotorg> elopio: Start the meeting I think :-)
<elopio> #startmeeting Community Council meeting: 20171116
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 16 17:02:50 2017 UTC.  The chair is elopio. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171116 | Current topic:
<popey> o/
<popey> I had a to-do to start a thread about wiki migration on the hub, but it's still on my to-do list, sorry.
<popey> Had a couple of mad weeks.
<elopio> Okay, hello! We didn't do a good use of the agenda in the hub this time, so let's start asking who has a topic to discuss
<elopio> I have two. Report of progress on my actions from last meeting, and ubuntu community appreciation day.
<elacheche> OK, let's discuss that
<elopio> Alright. Feel free to add topics as we go.
<elopio> So, thanks to wxl we started the LoCo council election. We have 7 votes already, probably missing Mark's who I'm not sure if it's going to vote or not.
<elopio> But, the deadline is tomorrow anyway. So we will end the voting and announce the new council tomorrow.
<elopio> I also had the action to convince everybody from the CC to be a mentor for code-in, but haven't done it yet.
<elopio> wxl already said he will be a mentor. What about you flexiondotorg and elacheche ?
<elacheche> I need to read more about code-in and the tasks that I should do, if my skills are good for that I will happy to be a mentor
<elacheche> The only recent informatio nI got about code-in is that Ubuntu is partof it, no further details, please share any link that can have details
 * elacheche is very sorry, was very busy lately
<elopio> elacheche: I'm sure you will be a great mentor, and you can define the tasks you want to work on. Let's talk after the meeting, when you have some time :)
<elacheche> Sure elopio
<elopio> did we lose flexiondotorg ?
<flexiondotorg> I have some tasks for GCI related to MATE Desktop and Ubuntu MATE.
<flexiondotorg> So, what about ubuntu community appreciation day?
<elacheche> It'll be for next Sunday, right?
<elopio> flexiondotorg: awesome. I didn't see you replying on the post on the hub. Maybe I missed it. I will ping ahoneybun, jose and marcoceppi to see if they become mentors too.
<elopio> wait, wait. Still on the report of the actions.
<elopio> my other action was to ping jose and marcoceppi to see why they have been missing this meetings
<elacheche> We'll celebrate the Software Freedom Day on sunday too.. I'll be part of that me and my LoCo, and we'll celebrate the Ubuntu Community Appreciation Day too + a Release Party (hopefully)
<elopio> jose said he was busy with a new job, but that he would be here today :/
<ahoneybun> elopio: ?
<elopio> marcoceppi said he has been traveling the world for a few weeks, and has weird hours
<elopio> I want to encourage everybody to use the hub more to talk council stuff, so these meetings are not so necessary in the future. Just for important things to sync.
<elopio> another action was to find artists. I talked to eylul from ubuntu studio and she liked the idea very much.
<flexiondotorg> We should promote what Ubuntu appreciation day is on the social networks so people can think about who they want to thank.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: can I put some pressure on you to make that post so we can direct the artists there?
<flexiondotorg> elopio: You mean to here - https://community.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-community-appreciation-day-nov-20th/1762
<elacheche> elopio: We can share a public announcement to spread the word about searching for artists, the news ML should be great for that
<elopio> flexiondotorg: no, I'm talking about the guerrilla marketing campaing.
<flexiondotorg> Ah, right.
<elopio> you are getting ahead, uca day was the second topic on the agenda :D
<flexiondotorg> Yes. I have started drafting something.
<flexiondotorg> Need time to finish it.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: thanks :)
<elopio> That's all I had to report, so next topic, UCA Day
<elopio> I started the post that flexiondotorg linked. If you have ideas of what else to do, please share them
<elopio> we should sync the ubuntu social network accounts to send posts on that day, on all our different time zones.
<elacheche> As I said, in Tunisia We'll celebrate the Software Freedom Day on sunday too.. I'll be part of that me and my LoCo, and we'll celebrate the Ubuntu Community Appreciation Day too + a Release Party (hopefully)
<flexiondotorg> So I think we should share that post, before Monday, so people learn that UAD is coming and think about who they might want to thank.
<elopio> elacheche: it's monday, but your celebration on sunday will be great! :D
<elacheche> Oh! Yeah I'll be the 1st to celebrate :D
<elopio> flexiondotorg: so, start making noise today or tomorrow?
<elacheche> We should share the info before Monday then, we should pick a hashtag for that too
<elacheche> #UCADay will be good I guess
<elopio> elacheche: the hashtag used for previous years was #ucaday
<flexiondotorg> I will queue some social posts for tomorrow.
<elopio> thanks flexiondotorg!
<elacheche> OK, my fault, 1st year to hear about the ucaday :(
<elopio> I also got a MR for message of the day: https://code.launchpad.net/~elopio/ubuntu-motd/appreciation/+merge/333552
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: You'll use Ubuntu official accounts?
<elopio> now I need to find Dustin to merge it, hopefully to release it tomorrow.
<elopio> alright. Something else to discuss about ucaday?
<flexiondotorg> elopio: Great idea updating motd. Very creative!
<elopio> we'll see how it goes and if we can keep using that resource
<flexiondotorg> Yeah, we should use that for future promotions.
<elopio> so, bottom line, make sure to appreciate somebody before monday ends.
<elopio> let's see what else should we discuss...
<elacheche> I'll do fir sure x) Multiple persons, not only one! :)
<elopio> elacheche: on the previous meeting we talked about starting to discuss with the wiki people. popey will set the right tone for the discussion, but I was wondering if you could help finding the right people to engage.
<elopio> it will be a post on the hub, so we need to invite people there to discuss a plan.
<elacheche> By wiki people you mean Wiki admins or wiki users? x)
<elacheche> What's the plan? To get rid of the wiki and move to the Hub?
<elopio> elacheche: I don't know. I guess both, but that's the task, find the people most interested.
<popey> It isn't a plan
<popey> It's a discussion
<elopio> elacheche: no, and that's the wrong way to phrase it :)
<popey> We _plan_ to have a _discussion_ about what to do about the wiki, open conversation.
 * elacheche likes the Wiki more than the hub :D
<popey> It's a tricky topic, because there are some people who use the wiki an awful lot.
<popey> It's possible to like both elacheche :)
<elopio> elacheche: that's why I thought you might be the right person to find the stakeholders for the discussion.
<elacheche> I agree with you popey.. I'll find some folks to add to the discussion ;)
<popey> Sweet!
<elopio> thanks elacheche! thanks popey!
<elacheche> All  LoCo "rules" are around logging things in the Wiki, by time it became a hard task, huge wiki, and fewer people to contribute..
<popey> <3
<elacheche> All MY*
<elacheche> I was talking about my LoCo not other ones x)
<elopio> okay, that's actually all I had for this meeting. On friday 24th, wxl and I will host another ubuntu hour
<elopio> you are all invited, it will be great to have you there.
<elopio> more details on the hub, probably tomorrow.
<elacheche> Thaks elopio !
<elopio> anybody else with topics to discuss? ahoneybun are you with us? I'm just seeing your ping now.
<elacheche> Not me
<elopio> we can give a few minutes to see if wxl has something to discuss
<elopio> He doesn't seem to be around. And anyway, we can discuss about everything in the async hub.
<wxl> back
<elacheche> Hey wxl :)
<elopio> hello wxl :) We were waiting to see if you had something to talk about today.
<wxl> elopio: i haven't read the backlog, but my biggest concern is the LoCo Council
<elopio> wxl: I started with that. We already have 7 votes, and the voting closes tomorrow.
<elopio> wxl: does that solve your concern, or is it about something else?
<flexiondotorg> 7 votes total?
<wxl> yeah, no, that's good
<wxl> i just want to make sure it gets DONE!
<elopio> flexiondotorg: yes. We were confused, and apparently only the community council votes in the loco election.
<flexiondotorg> So, that is all but Makr I imagine.
<flexiondotorg> *Mark
<elopio> wxl: I'll make sure to hit the end button tomorrow. Then, the announcement. Do you want to take care of announcing?
<elopio> flexiondotorg: that's my guess, but we don't have a way to see who voted.
<wxl> elopio: sure. as a current member of the council i can help with the transition, too
<elopio> wxl: great! So, at this time tomorrow is when we announced the deadline.
<wxl> ok
<wxl> elopio: so i'll come in tomorrow morning, close the poll, and make the announcement
<elopio> wxl: yes, thanks!
<wxl> elopio: i assume that announcement is only going to be on discourse?
<flexiondotorg> Great.
<elopio> wxl: in there first. But if you want to put it in the planet, in mailing lists, forums, that would be nice too
<elopio> tell flexiondotorg and popey to put it in the podcast too :D
<flexiondotorg> Noted :-)
<elopio> anything else to talk about, or should we end meeting?
<flexiondotorg> We've just recorded two episodes, so it won't go in for 2 weeks.
<wxl> elopio: um how do we put things on the planet?
<elopio> flexiondotorg: I think the term is for two years, so no hurries right? ;)
<elopio> wxl: you put it in a blog post, and syndicate the blog post in the planet.
<wxl> elopio: ah, i meant whether or nto we had a cc blog
<elopio> wxl: I don't think we have. And I don't think we should have, the category on the hub is a good amount of work already
<elacheche> Personnal blog post
<flexiondotorg> Perhaps we can investigate creating an RSS feed from the CC category on the Ubuntu Commumity Hub.
<flexiondotorg> And syndicating that to Planet.
<flexiondotorg> Then we have one place to post content.
<elopio> +1
<elacheche> +1
<flexiondotorg> OK, put that down as action for me than :-)
<flexiondotorg> *then
<wxl> i think that's a good idea
<elopio> it will be noted as such on the summary
<wxl> i don't want to litter my personal blog with cc administravata
<wxl> on the other hand, it would be nice if i actually published SOMETHING XD
<elopio> alright, if people need help with their action items, please say it and we'll share the load.
<flexiondotorg> I'll invetigate what is possible.
<flexiondotorg> We don't want to spam the planet.
<flexiondotorg> I have a question If there is nothing else.
<elopio> go for it
<flexiondotorg> I love the translation happening on the Ubuntu Community Hub.
<flexiondotorg> Why are we using shorthand country codes to designate the translation?
<flexiondotorg> Should we not use long hand language names so it is clear what they are?
<elopio> flexiondotorg: I thought they were short-hand codes for languages. Like pt-br
<flexiondotorg> Indeed. But Why not use "Portuguese (Brazilian)" instead of pt-br.
<elopio> but it's all an experiment. I searched a little on options to make discourse multi-language and they are all kind of bad. Would you prefer, for example espaÃ±ol/ instead of es/ ?
<flexiondotorg> I dout everyone know what the short hand means.
<wxl> or would it be better to say spanish?
<flexiondotorg> "Would you prefer, for example espaÃ±ol/ instead of es/?" <- Yes :-)
<wxl> ^^ not serious
<elopio> flexiondotorg: on a topic, the name of the language will take most of the space. That was my thinking, but I'm happy to try something different.
<flexiondotorg> I think localised version.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: ok, will change that in the places I can
<flexiondotorg> The language can be a sub-heading, so the length is not an issue.
<elopio> I will try that!
<elopio> flexiondotorg: one of the not so terrible ideas was to tag the posts with the name of the language. Can you grant me that? https://community.ubuntu.com/t/a-tag-for-spanish-posts/1630
<flexiondotorg> Yep, I'll do that after this meeting.
<elopio> thanks
<elopio> The translation category in the hub is open to discuss about this experiment.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: oh wait, how do I do a sub-heading?
<flexiondotorg> Using makrdown.
<flexiondotorg>  # H1
<flexiondotorg>  ## H2
<flexiondotorg>   ### H3
<flexiondotorg> etc
<elopio> Ahh, ok. I thought there was something like a subtitle textfield for posts.
<wxl> or
<wxl> H!
<wxl> oops
<wxl> H1
<wxl> ==
<wxl> H1
<wxl> argh
<wxl> H2
<wxl> --
<elopio> I guess that's ok. It doesn't make a lot of sense to tag them in the title. You either understand the language or you don't :)
<elopio> I'll start a topic to get this proposal.
<elopio> ok, we are almost out of time. Say your last words.
<flexiondotorg> I'll add the tag you've requested as well.
<flexiondotorg> I've shared my best words with you already ;-)
<elopio> and it was such an honor!
<elopio> closing in 5...
<elopio> 4...
<elopio> 3...
<elopio> 2...
<elopio> 1...
<elopio> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 16 17:59:41 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-16-17.02.moin.txt
<wxl> thanks all
<elopio> thanks everybody
<flexiondotorg> Thanks guys.
<elopio> let's appoint somebody else to chair the next meeting. flexiondotorg has 2, I have 2, sounds like a good idea to rotate them.
<elopio> elacheche or wxl, who wants to control the bot and the agenda?
<wxl> notme!
<wxl> :)
<elopio> well, it will be your turn someday :) elacheche: you have been volunteered!
<flexiondotorg> I just wxl volunteer ;-)
<wxl> i'll take next time :)
 * wxl slaps flexiondotorg 
 * flexiondotorg rubs face
<elacheche> x)
<elacheche> Yeah, one day x)
<elopio> elacheche: is that a yes for next month? Now I'm confused :)
<elacheche> Thanks folks, I need to go home.. elopio Let's move to #ubuntu-communitycouncil
<elacheche> :D
<elopio> can somebody invite me there, please?
<elopio> I had to remove my matrix bridge, it was still rought around the edges.
<flexiondotorg> elopio: Tags are now enabled on the Community Hub.
<wxl>  /msg chanserv invite #ubuntu-communitycouncil
<elopio> thanks flexiondotorg, wxl
<ahoneybun> did I miss it all?
<flexiondotorg> Just working out what Trust Level should be minimum to create tags elopio .
<elopio> ahoneybun: you did miss it all. You can add comments in the topic of the hub.
<flexiondotorg> OK, Trust Level 2 is required before you can create a tag on the Hub.
<flexiondotorg> elopio: You qualify. So you can add the tags you require :-)
<ahoneybun> but it starts at 11am for me
<ahoneybun> then the time changed
<elopio> ahoneybun: the time is 17 UTC. One thing I mentioned to marcoceppi and jose was that we can discuss about moving it to other time/day if that promotes participation.
<ahoneybun> the heck
<ahoneybun> that's 10am for me
<ahoneybun> elopio: need to update the calendar when
<elopio> ahoneybun: the announcement comes out in the hub, with date, time and agenda.
<ahoneybun> mm
<ahoneybun> update calendar please that's what I go by
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-13
<doko> o/
<cpaelzer> hi
<cpaelzer> sorry, was deep in a review
<cpaelzer> doko: oh no one else did show up either?
<doko> no
<doko> cpaelzer: ok, then let's skip it
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-15
 * vorlon waves
<rbalint> o/
<tobikoch> \o
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 15 16:01:43 2018 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<vorlon> $ echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther platonical tobikoch)
<vorlon> mwhudson cyphermox sil2100 infinity platonical tdaitx juliank fginther rbalint tobikoch rcj xnox doko bdmurray philroche vorlon Odd_Bloke
<bdmurray> I think that means platonical is first
<vorlon> hah indeed
<vorlon> platonical:
<platonical> * updates to livecd-rootfs
<platonical> * cloud partner work
<platonical> done
<platonical> tdaitx
<tdaitx> * uploaded openjdk-7 with 7u201 patches to the security team
<tdaitx> * working on jtreg testcase for SRUing openjdk-8 runtime failure
<tdaitx> * preparing upload of openjdk-8 and openjdk-lts (10, Bionic) for the security team (Debian #911847, Debian #911925, Debian #913641, LP: #1800792)
<tdaitx> * keeping track of fixed packages in debian for openjdk-11 compatibility
<tdaitx> * reviewed openjdk-8 and openjdk-11 roadmap (EOL is much later compared to late-2017 and early-2018 figures)
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Debian bug 911847 in src:openjdk-8 "openjdk-8: Backport fix to JDK-8132985: crash in freetypescaler due to double free" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/911847
<ubottu> Debian bug 911925 in openjdk-8-jdk "S8195874: Improve jar specification adherence breaks reverse depends build and runtime" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/911925
<ubottu> Debian bug 913641 in libreoffice-report-builder "libreoffice-report-builder: report builder reports fail to run after S8195874 in OpenJDK" [Grave,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/913641
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1800792 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "Update to 8u181-b13-1ubuntu0.18.04.1 breaks Maven builds" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1800792
<tdaitx> juliank: go!
<juliank> * syncs: fakeroot
<juliank> * merges: wget, packagekit, libgcrypt20, kbd
<juliank> * apt prereleases (bug 1787460, failed attempt for bug 1801338, amongst other things)
<ubottu> bug 1787460 in linux-meta-hwe (Ubuntu) "Unattended upgrades removed linux-image-generic" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1787460
<juliank> * still trying to figure out how to get aptitude to build in C++17, which it requires in 0.8.11 (so we don't get stuck on 0.8.10)
<ubottu> bug 1801338 in apt (Ubuntu Cosmic) "apt fails to properly handle server-side connection closure" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1801338
<juliank> * networkd-dispatcher new upstream release 2.0-0ubuntu1
<juliank> (done)
<xnox> fginther, ?
<vorlon> fginther:
<platonical> hes afk atm
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> rbalint:
<rbalint> (short and slow week due to minor injury)
<rbalint> * found and fixed LP: #1803391
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1803391 in systemd (Ubuntu Disco) "Systemd update installation hangs in unattended-upgrades InstallOnShutdown mode" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1803391
<rbalint> * prepared unattended-upgrade SRU for all releases starting with Xenial with a lot of regression testing and documenting the regressions
<doko> tdaitx: is there a document about the openjdk-11 compat packages?
<rbalint> * paving the way for mass bzr -> git conversion in https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+git/bzr-git-mass-convert
<rbalint> (done)
<tobikoch> * Things related to parallelized image builds
<tobikoch> * Point-in-time fixing of snap versions in image builds
<tobikoch> * Turning mfdiff into a reusable component
<tobikoch> * Pseudo vanguarding
<tobikoch> (done)
<tobikoch> rcj:
<tobikoch> sorry, rcj is presenting in another meeting.
<tobikoch> xnox:
<xnox> * subiquity s390x - it builds, it boots, it installs but only on qemu
<xnox> * preparing systemd SRU with linear history
<xnox> * boost1.67 transition started in debian
<xnox> done
<fginther> sorry
<fginther> * Cloud partner face to face
<tdaitx> doko: I have a trello card + a personal list in keep, I'll be moving those into our openjdk doc
<doko> ta
<fginther> * Manager stuff
<fginther> (done)
<doko> - just involved in merges in transitons, currently no other stuff
<doko> - and python3.7 done
<doko> (done)
<xnox> fginther, Manager's stuff?!
<rbalint> fginther, window manager stuff :-)
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> worked on modifing ET charm / spec to setup telegraf config
<bdmurray> started writing test crash verifier for Error Tracker
<bdmurray> fixed daisy bug w/ staging.launchpad.net LP: #1793735
<bdmurray> submitted RT re: updating daisy code for the above
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1793735 in Errors "create bug link uses staging.launchpad.net" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1793735
<bdmurray> special sru reviews of debootstrap, grub2
<bdmurray> package to team mapping work / nagging
<bdmurray> uploaded cosmic, bionic SRUs for LP: #1797384
<bdmurray> submitted ubuntu-archive-tools MP fixing LP: #1720249
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1797384 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Cosmic) "release upgrader has no icon in gnome-shell dock" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797384
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1720249 in ubuntu-archive-tools "sru-report: Color code Incomplete bugs differently" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1720249
<bdmurray> resolved update-notifier autopkgtest failures
<bdmurray> modified bugbot to handle ROS ppa upgrade failures
<bdmurray> performed SRU verification of grub bug LP: #1788727
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1788727 in grub2 (Ubuntu Bionic) "upgrade crashing due to unsigned kernels" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1788727
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> philroche:
<philroche> * F2F meetings with partners
<philroche> * Cloud image build system changes
<philroche> * Cloud image build system vanguard
<philroche> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * short week, was off Monday for US holiday
<vorlon>  * subiquity on z planning
<vorlon>  * disco proposed-migration transitions
<vorlon>  * lots of kernel SRU processing while others are at Plumbers
<vorlon>  * off next Thu/Fri (Thanksgiving)
<vorlon> (done)
<vorlon> Odd_Bloke:
<Odd_Bloke> * Cloud image vanguard
<Odd_Bloke> * Sorting out some issues with new CPC Jenkins slaves
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<vorlon> any questions over status?
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> no news here
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<vorlon> anything else this week?
<bdmurray> I also am out Thu Fri of next week
<gaughen> vorlon, have we sorted out the plan for systemd and u-u, xnox and rbalint?
<rbalint> is there anyone switching over to https://code.launchpad.net/~rbalint/+git/livecd-rootfs
<xnox> gaughen, i believe we have sorted the systemd patch to upload. not involved in the u-u plan of sru, etc.
<gaughen> rbalint, why would anyone switch to that?
<gaughen> xnox, do we need to expedite it?
<rbalint> gaughen, i mean to the content, not to the url
<vorlon> gaughen: I saw rbalint say he had a patch that works, so I didn't see the need to dig any deeper
<rbalint> so it would be  git+ssh://git.launchpad.net/livecd-rootfs
<gaughen> cpc-help ^^
<vorlon> fwiw we do have a variety of open MPs against several of the branches: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/livecd-rootfs/trunk/+activereviews https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/livecd-rootfs/bionic-proposed/+activereviews https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/livecd-rootfs/xenial-proposed/+activereviews
<vorlon> (16, 3, 1)
<vorlon> so per backchannel discussion :), it sounds like we are targetting Dec 12 for this bzr->git conversion
<vorlon> in order to give us time to quiesce the queue of outstanding MPs
<vorlon> [ACTION] rbalint to send mail informing everyone of the livecd-rootfs conversion timeline
<meetingology> ACTION: rbalint to send mail informing everyone of the livecd-rootfs conversion timeline
<rbalint> (we may pick several other repos to convert on 12th)
<fginther> tobikoch, ^ bzr->git for livecd-rootfs. we should work to get as much merged as possible (not that you aren't already working toward this :) )
<tobikoch> fginther: ack
<vorlon> ok, anything else?
<gaughen> not from me
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 15 16:33:49 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-15-16.01.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks, all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-11
<JHOSMAN> Hello!
<MajB> Hello
<JHOSMAN> Who will be chairing the meeting today?
<MajB> I have no idea.  I am here for the Arizona LoCo
<JHOSMAN> MajB I understand, The leaders of Ubuntu Colombia will be waiting.
<MajB> Their normal meeting start time is 2000 UTC but their agenda page indicates a 1900 start time.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<MajB> A bit confusing
<MajB> Anyone here from the Ubuntu LoCo Council
<JHOSMAN> :(
<MajB> Not sure what is going on here
<MajB> I talked to them last month
<JHOSMAN> MajB What did they tell you?
<MajB> To attend the meeting today with all of the documentation for re-verification
<JHOSMAN> With what persons?
<MajB> According to Launchpad there are no members on the LoCo council.  Interesting.  I need to talk to my team leader.
<JHOSMAN> okay
<MajB> We had the same problem back in 2015 and again in 2017.  Seems like the council cannot get their agenda together
<JHOSMAN> MajB i understand
<MajB> It would seem to me that they would attend their own scheduled meetings since there are so few verified LoCo Teams but I guess that I am wrong
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-12
<cpaelzer> o/
<cpaelzer> am I off by timezone ... ?
<cpaelzer> no I'm actually even 7 min late
<cpaelzer> doko: cyphermox: didrocks: sarnold: any MIR thoughts of the week?
<cpaelzer> topics that need the full meeting or a wider discussion?
<didrocks> cpaelzer: I don't think there is any. Slightly related, I think next week, the "daemon/service" version of zsys should be ready. Unsure if you want to have a quick review on it, I'll ping you if you want (anyway, we'll need the security team check)
<cpaelzer> didrocks: feel free to ping, not that I insist but if I can squeeze in a few minutes a review can't hurt
<cpaelzer> ack that the security review is what you really want on this
<didrocks> yes ;)
<doko> sorry, forgot about that today
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-14
<cyphermox> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 14 16:01:24 2019 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> bdmurray asked me last week to chair this meeting
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<cyphermox> vorlon bdmurray cyphermox xnox sil2100 tdaitx mwhudson waveform juliank infinity doko rbalint
<cyphermox> oh boy
<cyphermox> vorlon: around?
<cyphermox> bdmurray sent his status by email already
<cyphermox> ok; my turn then
<cyphermox> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> short week; off monday tuesday
<cyphermox> catching up with what happened in the last few days
<cyphermox> that eternal NetworkManager netplan plugin (debugging build issues)
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> xnox:
<sil2100> Ok, xnox is sprinting
<sil2100> No status report, but I guess he's busy
<sil2100> So now my turn:
<cyphermox> ok
<sil2100> - A few SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Working overnight on some image and point-release tinkery - lots of time, still not done
<sil2100> - Did a quick overview of the work needed for private PPA britney/autopkgtest runs
<sil2100> - Reviewing, sponsoring and fast-tracking the flash-kernel changes from Dave
<sil2100> - Pushed a missing change to livecd-rootfs bionic fixing core 18 builds, verified and released
<sil2100> - Some livecd-rootfs reviews (for David and Michael)
<sil2100> - Verified the ubuntu-release-upgrader SRUs, aging in -proposed
<sil2100> - Started reading up about netplan
<sil2100> (done)
<cyphermox> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> = 2019-11-14
<tdaitx> * dask autopkgtests
<tdaitx>   - backported patches for py3.8 compatibility for pandas, superseeded by new debian sync
<tdaitx>   - fixing autopkgtests superseeded by new dask upload
<tdaitx>   - now testing upstream fix for dask.multiprocessing.FileNotFoundError
<tdaitx> * jck samples testing on jenkins
<tdaitx> * looking at openjdk CVEs and collecting information on the fixes
<tdaitx> * updating apport/whoopsie repositories with latest fixes
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - tomorrow is a holiday, will be working half-day
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> mwhudson isn't here
<cyphermox> waveform: is sprinting?
<waveform> * Tested flash-kernel fixes for Pi4 USB fix (LP: #1848790); all pi models (including CMs), both archs, plus manual regression tests for u-boot and linux framebuffers, audio, and USB
<waveform> * Tested flash-kernel fix for Pi3A+ boot (LP: #1848247)
<waveform> * Worked on flash-kernel boot-script for Pi4 support on Bionic (the 2/3 boot-scripts on Bionic use different device-tree addresses; new boot script accepts this)
<waveform> * Worked on u-boot-rpi postinst for Pi4 support on Bionic (config.txt migration path)
<waveform> * Confirmed USB storage issue on Pi2/3/3+ (LP: #1852510); experimented with workarounds but no particularly useful ones available yet
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848790 in linux-raspi2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "USB not working under arm64 on Pi4" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848790
<waveform> * Worked on pi configuration tool (but not much because the home server is dying; replacement in the works)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848247 in linux-firmware-raspi2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "3A+ boot failure on Eoan" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848247
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1852510 in linux-raspi2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "IO errors when writing large amounts of data to USB storage in eoan on RPI" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852510
<waveform> (done)
<cyphermox> infinity:
<infinity>  * Short week, was off Friday and Monday.
<infinity>  * Discovered and reported on bug with ESM/ubuntu-advantage on non-x86, spent lots of time spitballing possible solutions with IS and Server team.
<infinity>  * Generic AA and SRU things.
<infinity>  * Code reviews and process discussions.
<infinity>  * Hiding in glibc land a bit.
<infinity> (done)
<cyphermox> doko said he wouldn't be here; but he didn't send his status yet
<cyphermox> rbalint:
<rbalint> * proposed-migration fixes: twisted, python-taskflow, python-motor
<rbalint> * SRU verifications: systemd
<rbalint> * bug gardening: shadow, systemd
<rbalint> * uploads via Debian: libevent, vmdk-stream-converter (delayed/10)
<rbalint> * triaging kpartx hanging in focal chroot on xenial host breaking focal image builds
<rbalint> * fixed an other livecd-rootfs issue also breaking the build, but in a vm
<rbalint> (done)
<cyphermox> thanks
<cyphermox> #topic Release incoming bugs (focal)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (focal)
<cyphermox> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1847307
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1847307 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Install in english with italian keyboard - keyboard not set during install" [High,New]
<cyphermox> I suppose I could look at it, or if someone else wants to take it since I'm supposed to just focus on netplan
<cyphermox> that will need someone to look carefully at console-setup
<cyphermox> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1845529
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1845529 in bash-completion (Ubuntu) "bash completion shows `awk: line 18: function gensub never defined` on `umount /dev/<Tab>`" [High,Triaged]
<sil2100> I could take the keyboard one if anything
<sil2100> (sorry for late reply, my head is really slow today)
<cyphermox> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1847898
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1847898 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "System doesn't boot after installation - Legacy mode / 2 disks" [High,Triaged]
<cyphermox> that one is carded; so we'll assume it's properly assigned or about to be
<cyphermox> I'll card bash-completion for myself, it seems like a jfdi
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxd/+bug/1834501
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1834501 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Eoan) "do-release-upgrade from bionic->any disables lxd without snapstore access" [Undecided,New]
<cyphermox> I think we want to relese-upgrader part of this
<cyphermox> carding for the backlog, I guess
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1848144
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848144 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Screen reader isn't enabled on login screen or user session after installation" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<cyphermox> that seems very much desktopy
<cyphermox> sil2100: to card and have a quick look
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1851346
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851346 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio 19.10 Installer Causes Wanted Programs to be Removed" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<sil2100> cyphermox: carded, will refresh my memory on the screen reader one
<cyphermox> sil2100: thanks
<cyphermox> moving on to bb
<cyphermox> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1723390
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1723390 in systemd (Ubuntu Bionic) "lxd containers have become degraded" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<cyphermox> I propose carding; letting xnox tell us more about it (since he filed the bug, and usually he palys with systemd anyway)
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjdk-lts/+bug/1838740
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1838740 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu) "libjawt.so inconsistency lets JVM crash" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<cyphermox> tdaitx: already looking into this?
<cyphermox> card I suppose?
<tdaitx> cyphermox: yeah
<tdaitx> lets card it
<cyphermox> okay
<cyphermox> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<cyphermox> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> there are quite a few things in there; but many are candidates (so more update_output than autopkgtests/build failures for now)
<cyphermox> blocked in some transition
<cyphermox> pretty much just python3-defaults
<cyphermox> (I think doko has been looking into it two weeks ago, not sure about its status now)
<cyphermox> and various other pythons
<cyphermox> please, if you have any time see how you can help with untangling thinks in proposed, especially when many are sprinting this week so maybe not looking at it as much?
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> None from me
<cyphermox> anything?
<infinity> Nein.
<sil2100> Oh, I'll be off on Monday
<cyphermox> ok
<rbalint> me too
<sil2100> And I'll be EODing like *now*
<infinity> I suppose I should note that I'll be off all Fridays from now until EOY.
<waveform> I may be disappearing sporadically tomorrow as I rebuild the home server
<infinity> And the week before the shutdown as well.
<cyphermox> Brian mentioned he'd like people to pick up the habit of sending status by email if they can't make the meeting
<cyphermox> infinity: so, same as last year?
<rbalint> +1
<infinity> cyphermox: Nah, last year I took the whole month. :P
<cyphermox> ;)
<cyphermox> okay, anything else?
<cyphermox> I'll take that as a no
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 14 16:33:44 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-11-14-16.01.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks everyone!
<sil2100> cyphermox: thanks!
<infinity> Thanks, Matt.
<tdaitx> thanks!
<rbalint> o/
