#ubuntu-meeting 2005-03-14
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ogra] : Tuesday 8 March 2005 16:00 UTC Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tuesday 1 March 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || Thursday 03 March 2005 http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ogra] : Tuesday 8 March 2005 16:00 UTC Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tuesday 1 March 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || Thursday 03 March 2005 16:30 UTC http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
<dholbach> hi everyone
<ogra> hi everybody, lets start the meeting then
<zul> hey
* pitti waves
<ogra> i would first like to do some administrativa before we come to the agenda
<dholbach> which you can read here http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting
* mvo waves too
<ogra> how often do we want to do this meeting
<ajmitch> at this hour? not too often 
<ogra> we can have a rotating timeschedule, but i meant how frequently
<pitti> just see how it goes, how much of the agenda will still be left, and decide that afterwards
<ogra> weekly, 2 weekly, monthly
<ogra> ok
<ogra> so lets go to the agenda...
<ogra> how do we handle packages in universe that are newer than in Sid or will never enter debian but ubuntu etc
<herve> we can still append ubuntu1 to the revision 
<ogra> there was something on the wiki a while back, cant look t up right now..
<herve> in case thy enter Debian some day
<pitti> you should start with ubuntu0
<ogra> ...it said something like upstream must be actively maintained
<pitti> so that the first Debian version will be never
<ajmitch> pitti: we've been doing -0ubuntu1
<pitti> -> then you can sync
<dholbach> not -0ubuntu1?
<pitti> ajmitch: argh, right
<pitti> I meant this
<pitti> sorry
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> but the problem is the interaction with debian people
<pitti> ^ a technical or a social one?
<ogra> i think its up to the DD to choose that for his pkg
<dholbach> atm i can't say anything positive about it
<dholbach> yeah... i had no reaction until this point
<herve> why Debian wouldn't do the opposite of what we do?
<herve> sync Ubuntu packages into Debian
<herve> our definition of free software is close enough
<dholbach> herve: because they don't have the syncing mechanism
<ajmitch> herve: they might, if people upload into debian by their procedures
<Kamion> it's a matter for individual maintainers
<herve> I meant manually :)
<ogra> herve, that up to them
<dholbach> it's each DD's decision
<ogra> tahts even
<ogra> argl
<herve> so we would need some mentor like new packagers :-)
<pitti> the problem is, if you have a NEW package, then there is no default DD for it
<dholbach> if people used cdbs-tarball-dpatch/simple-patchsys (ok, only in the cases where it's possible), giving back would be a lot easier
<pitti> if you want it in Debian, you have to file an RFP
<pitti> dholbach: ++
<ajmitch> dholbach: not everything fits well with cdbs :)
<ajmitch> or an ITP if you intend to maintain it
<dholbach> ajmitch: that's what i just said :-)
<pitti> ajmitch: no, but most packages do
<herve> dholbach, got the message ;)
<dholbach> but that doesnt apply to NEW packages
<pitti> ajmitch: right, if you want to maintain it in Debian yourself, there is no problem, right?
<ajmitch> pitti: yep
<pitti> I thought the problem were if you don't want/can't maintain it in Debian
<ogra> but we will have a lot MOTUs that are no DD in the future i guess
<dholbach> can't any of you ubuntu-DDs be the sync-NEW-from-ubuntu--guy? :-)
<pitti> btw, Debian can't sync pacakges because they don't want ubuntu version numbers
<ogra> they would have to take maintainership
<pitti> dholbach: no, that would be a PITA
<ajmitch> ogra: sure, you don't have to be a DD to maintain debian packages, just to upload
<dholbach> pitti: yes... i can see that
<pitti> dholbach: we can certainly sponsor uploads, though
<pitti> but not maintain
<ogra> but lets not discuss the debian part here, its up to them
<pitti> for the record, I'm fine with sponsoring Debian package uploads
<haggai> as long as it is easy for debian to use them
<pitti> as long as I don't have to review them every time
* ajmitch can also help with that if needed
<dholbach> pitti: i'll get back to you :-)
<ogra> our part shold be maintainig a list of such packages
<dholbach> ogra: which ones?
<herve> pitti, you could trust a package that was trusted to enter Ubuntu?
<haggai> good idea.  Time for a new wiki page listing new packages not in Debian?
<ogra> so if debian is interested they can request a sync
<pitti> herve: "trust" in which sense?
<ogra> dholbach: NEW
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> ubuntu-NEW :-)
<herve> pitti, uploading without reviewing
<pitti> herve: I don't speak about NEW packages
<pitti> herve: just updates
<ogra> dholbach: yeah
<ajmitch> herve: I wouldn't expect ubuntu packaging to always be perfect
<pitti> herve: I can't process NEW packages any way
<haggai> having such a wiki page would also be a reference for people wondering what additional stuff ubuntu has
<ogra> ajmitch: i would...(after some time)
<herve> pitti, ok you would prefer to review each update, ideally
<pitti> herve: I mean, the actual maintainer has to care for his bugs, I only would sponsor the upload
<ajmitch> ogra: only when someone has time to review the packages :)
<Mithrandir> sorry, was off for food.
<pitti> however, I don't think that we should automatically upload all new Ubuntu packages to Debian
<ogra> ajmitch: i hope we dont drop the crossreviewing
<ogra> pitti: never ever
<herve> could some ubuntu platform or mailing list be set as the maintainer email of such packages?
<pitti> filing RFPs with a link to the Ubuntu package is more than enough IMHO
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, but when people are MOTUs they can upload without getting reviews
<pitti> then the Debian community can decide 
<ogra> ajmitch: we will have a poicy for NEW packages....
<pitti> ++ for the wiki page with new stuff
<ogra> ok..
<ogra> noted
<ogra> ok, next point ? 
<dholbach> ubuntu-NEW packages
<dholbach> and their process
<ogra> yup
<ogra> i find the suggestion of dholbach very tempting
<dholbach> the idea is quite clear: we need to have a thorough review of those packages
<dholbach> 3 MOTUs is ok in my eyes
<pitti> what about mandating, or at least urging a sane pacakging format?
<Mithrandir> ogra: to have a couple of MOTUs reviewing packages before they are uploaded?
<ajmitch> pitti: later in the agenda :)
<pitti> I mean for new ubuntu packages
<pitti> ok
* ogra remembers metalikops first package (an gnome applet with suid binary)
<ogra> Mithrandir: yup
<pitti> ajmitch: "urge Debian people..." -> that's not my point, but nevermind
<ajmitch> pitti: ah, sorry, misread it
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: yes, any of the MOTU team, not just the leads I think
<dholbach> any other ideas, proposals?
<pitti> I'd mandate cdbs+tarball and a proper patch system (simple-patchsys, quilt, whatever); this comes close to the future dpkg format and is really good
<ogra> just to make sure 6 or more eyes have seen it
<pitti> ogra: we should collect a list of more folks who are willing to do review
<Mithrandir> pitti: I find making cdbs packages really icky when you have a bit of complexity.  It has no docs.
<pitti> i. e. I'd be willing to review packaging
<jani> pitti, so cdbs preferred over plain debhelper?
<pitti> for _some_ pacakges
<ogra> pitti: we do a lot of cross reviewing in #ubuntu-motu
<pitti> Mithrandir: right, the docs should be improved, but it rocks; however, dbs is fine, too
<pitti> jani: it's only a proposal, but cdbs really rocks and avoids many errors (and makes packaging easy, btw)
<ajmitch> perhaps jbailey or someone could actually document cdbs one day :)
<pitti> my point is, if we have one common packaging format, review is easy
<Mithrandir> pitti: we don't want to get people to use dbs.
<ogra> pitti, but we always have packages nobody feels smart enough to review, like hula
<dholbach> no other opinions on the ubuntu-NEW thing?
<pitti> :-)
<haggai> dholbach: might be worth noting it only applies to MOTUs, not maintainers?
<pitti> ogra: during my security work, I've seen so many braindead packaging formats, it really hurts
<pitti> ogra: we must not make this error again
<ogra> heh
<ogra> ok
<dholbach> haggai: this is MOTUMeeting :-)
<pitti> so enforcing a strong packaging policy would really rock
<dholbach> pitti: ++
<haggai> dholbach: I know but you're talking about documenting a process
<Mithrandir> I think that having patches in arch can also be fine, if the arch repo is mirrorer publically
<pitti> Mithrandir: you mean patches which are directly in the debian diff.gz?
<dholbach> can we please get to the patch-thing later?
<pitti> ok
<Mithrandir> yes, and {arch} directories in there too
<pitti> argh
<dholbach> haggai: you're right... there should be exceptions to it
<pitti> Mithrandir: arch dirs in diff.gz? that sucks
<dholbach> haggai: i wouldn't tell seb128 to let me review his packages :-)
<Mithrandir> t would be interesting to have a MOTU review some of my packages. :)
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: if we're up to the task :)
<ogra> haggai, i think forcing a policy that NEW packages must get reviewed is a good first set in a process
<pitti> ++
<ogra> s/reviewed/crossreviewed
<herve> by at least 3 persons?
<pitti> ogra: the lintian output should be published somewhere
<ogra> additionally i would like to have the "must actively be maintained upstream or you take it yourself" in
<mvo> yes, I think this review is good because we have much less "ownership" on packages than e.g. debian
<ajmitch> herve: yes, we've often had reviews from 2-3 people already
<ogra> s/take it/take it over
<dholbach> ogra: ++
<herve> ok so you can conclude 3 is enough?
<Mithrandir> yes, more seems a bit excessive
<ajmitch> yes, we don't want too many
<crimsun> 3's sufficient to me
<ogra> for a initila review, its ok
<herve> approved!
<ajmitch> it'd get too slow to do 4 or more reviews for each new package
<dholbach> and keeping a list of those who "signed off" is good, those 4 guys have to fix the bugs then :-)
<pitti> ogra: special exception for suid/sgid binaries
<pitti> ogra: I'd like to be notified about them
<ajmitch> pitti: we can pass those on to you
<pitti> so that I can do a more insight review
<ogra> hehe, piti, i assume one of the three will raise a hand then
<dholbach> pitti: yeah
<pitti> ogra: can we please formalize this?
<ajmitch> ogra: well it only took a couple of minutes to spot the suid applet :)
<ogra> pitti: you will get them all ;)
<pitti> ogra: no suid/sgid without approval from security@ubuntu.com
<pitti> okay, thanks
<ogra> ok, all suid binary packages go to the security team first
<dholbach> Mithrandir: about the public mirror
<dholbach> pitti: about the lintian warnings
* ajmitch will have logs of the meeting once we're finished, btw
<dholbach> we have no mechanisms at all for doing that
<pitti> dholbach: I'm more concerned about certain errors
<crimsun> ajmitch: (it's also logged concurrently by fabbione)
<pitti> dholbach: okay, forget the publishing
<ajmitch> crimsun: great
<dholbach> and doing it manually is a pain in the ass
<pitti> dholbach: but lintian finds a lot of errors, at least the packager/the reviewers should pay attention to it
<pitti> dholbach: oh, not manually
<ogra> pitti: i normally dont approove packages with linian errors/warnings....
<pitti> dholbach: I thought about integrating it into the buildd process
<Mithrandir> dholbach: public mirror and ask jblack to mirror it on the supermirror (sourcecontrol.net)
<dholbach> pitti: we will set up docs of common "pitfalls"
<pitti> okay
<pitti> dholbach: debian automatically publishes the lintian errors, we can certainly set this up, too
<dholbach> yeah... we need some architectural changes
<dholbach> because the motu crowd will grow
<jani> what about lintian warnings when sweeping across universe (i.e. python transition)
<dholbach> were what? 10 now?
<pitti> jani: in particular?
<jani> should we stop for them or postpone for separate task
<dholbach> but we'll 50-100 soon, i guess
<jani> and do just the focused changes
<ajmitch> dholbach: trying to coordinate that many will be fun
<ogra> so are we done with NEW Packages ?
<dholbach> ajmitch: that's why we have to make proper decisions now
<jani> python transition or the new .desktop file missing
<ajmitch> ogra: I think so
<dholbach> ogra: yeah
<crimsun> pitti: something equivalent to Debian's packages.qa would be wonderful, but that seems to be quite some infrastructure.
<ogra> ok, next is Teams
<pitti> jani: oh, lintian complains about old pythong versions? neat
<ajmitch> currently there are 2 teams listed
<Mithrandir> crimsun: we'll have that, it's called launchpad
<ajmitch> pitti: I don't think it does
<pitti> crimsun: no worries, that's already being worked on
<jani> pitti, no for instance unrelated warings
<crimsun> Mithrandir: / pitti: ah, excellent.
<jani> pitti, for each transitioned package say 5 warnings
<dholbach> ogra: write in CAPITAL letters
<ogra> TEAMS NOW
<pitti> jani: well, common sense applies :-)
<jani> pitti, stop and solve them or go on with transitioning packages (the current goal)
<dholbach> jani, pitti: that's something we'll discuss in "patches"
* ogra whistles....
<pitti> jani: I don't care about speling errrors, I care about broken libraries and suid files and such
<jani> dholbach,ok :)
<jani> pitti, ok then
<ogra> we currently have two active teams and a bunch of proposals
<dholbach> namely java and mono?
<ajmitch> ogra: well the zope/plone page was just put up yesterday, we've got 3 people willing to do zope stuff for now 
<dholbach> oh cool
<ogra> i personally would like to see the packaging efforts shared in a team then having individual maintainers
<dholbach> yeah
<jani> crimsun, xfce4 team?
<herve> no Python team or merged with Zope?
<ogra> but we need teamleaders.... to care for them
<crimsun> jani: sure, something of that ilk
<ajmitch> herve: separate
<ajmitch> see MOTUTeams
<ogra> herve: propse one :)
<ajmitch> noone has created the wiki page, so there's no team :)
<dholbach> we'll have more overview over the packages (with a chance of weeding out)
<ogra> crimsun: could you make a page below desktop teams...
<ogra> for xfce
<crimsun> ogra: absolutely
<ogra> great :)
<dholbach> but how do we get people in teams? you have any ideas?
<ogra> as i wrote on the agenda, i think its up to the teamleaders.....
<ajmitch> pitti: you want people in the MOTUSecurity team?
* herve would like a Python teamn (he recently gained valuable experience ;o))
<ogra> but we need these first
<pitti> ajmitch: in any case, right now we only have one person caring for universe security updates
<pitti> (Gerardo di Giacomo, Astarot)
<ajmitch> ogra: how will team leaders be elected/appointed/volunteered?
<ogra> btw: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUTeams
<ajmitch> pitti: alright
<pitti> but he's no MOTU
<ajmitch> a few more would be good then
<pitti> in any case
<dholbach> ajmitch: activity, that's what i'd say
<ogra> ajmitch: who comes first....
<ogra> ajmitch: later the team should sort it themselves
<pitti> I will coordinate vulnerabilities and I have tools to support me
<pitti> but I would appreciate a MOTU to do the uploads
<ogra> pitti: the plan was that the team is lead by a MOTU, but the members dont need to be...
<pitti> fine for me
<ogra> pitti: as a team will need at least one uploader
<ajmitch> ogra: ok, so the zope team lead would currently be doko (although he's a full maintainer, not a MOTU)
<herve> ok so I can be member of a Python team
<ajmitch> herve: you can 
<crimsun> herve: indeed
<ajmitch> I'll also be in a python team, I think
<herve> so I'll create the MotuPyton page and I myself to the members
<ogra> i'll join pygtk :)
<ogra> herve: go on
<dholbach> we need ideas what those teams have on their goal list
<ajmitch> herve: just copy the text from the other team page :)
<dholbach> so people have a clearer meaning of why joining the team
<ajmitch> dholbach: agreed
<herve> ajmitch, you read my mind :-)
<ogra> dholbach: that schould be written on every team page
<dholbach> yeah... but we have to move :-)
<ajmitch> herve: well I just copied the appropriate text from the mono team page :)
<crimsun> dholbach: true. I've forwarded jani a brief (by no means conclusive) list of goals for xfce; that will be on the wiki page for the xfce team.
<dholbach> cool
<dholbach> what should the group separation be based on? skill? "package section"? ...?
<dholbach> or whatever 2-3 people agree on? ;-)
<ogra> separation ?
<ogra> let the groups sort it themselves....
<dholbach> ok
<jani> focus on a specific software?
<ajmitch> there are going to be people in more than one group anyway
<dholbach> was just an idea to help new guys to get into it
<ogra> lets just see that we get one MTU as lead for every group
<crimsun> there's an implicit separation based on packages if you're referring to overarching themes - or do you mean within a team?
<crimsun> s/themes/teams/
<dholbach> no... not within a team
<herve> what about a team able to help and solve on porting problems
<herve> ?
<ogra> the teams should have a package list ....
<dholbach> just as proposal... i could imagine there's someone who wants to get involved and doesnt know where to start
<ogra> so every othe team can see what they are working on
<herve> Python team officialy created!
<jani> well teams should not be exhaustive
<ajmitch> herve: renaming your page, sorry :)
<jani> just specialized groups
<ogra> dholbach: he asks and gets pointed to the teamleader
<dholbach> if (s)he says: "i know a bit of perl", (s)he could get into a PerlGroup *shrug*
<herve> ajmitch, ?
<jani> other MOTU activities might go on outside of specific teams
<dholbach> i was just wondering if this was any good
<ogra> dholbach, yup, so you poing him/her to the perl team
<ajmitch> herve: hmm, I think we should probably keep the MOTU pages with the MOTU prefix consistent?
<dholbach> yeah
<crimsun> dholbach: yes, that sounds fine
<crimsun> ajmitch: agreed
<ajmitch> although the zope & mono team pages aren't..
<jani> a METAMOTUTeam
<jani> to coordinate where new people go :)
<dholbach> so a division of groups based on skill and "interest"/"package section"?
<herve> ajmitch, ok I retitle the Zope page too then
<ogra> interest and package selection
<dholbach> jani: MOTUTeams :-)
<crimsun> dholbach: moreso the latter
<ajmitch> herve: ok
<ogra> anybdy else who wants to lead/join a tema ?
<dholbach> i'd say perl/mono/java is a "skill" :-)
<ogra> man...my typing is crap
<ajmitch> ogra: I just joined python team
<jani> ogra, we got used to it, no problem :)
<herve> as a beginner, I prefer not giving myself too much burden
<ajmitch> herve: we'll soon thrash you into shape ;)
<ogra> hehe
<dholbach> ok... what did we agree on?
<ogra> we have teams
<crimsun> herve: the mentoring process is a vital part; the more experienced among us are helping each other and the less experienced; the less experienced will then become more experience and are expected to assist newer, etc.
<jani> I'd join xfce
<ogra> led by a motu
<herve> crimsun, sounds like a mailing-list and a plain wiki section for MOTUs...
<ajmitch> herve: and irc, of course :)
<herve> I can't but agree on the sharing of knowledge
<dholbach> yeah
<herve> ajmitch, yes but it's getting harder with more and more people
<dholbach> and we should have sexy RSS feeds
<dredg> damn work (specifically tomcat being on crack) has wiped out any chance of me paying attention to what's going on. where can i get logs of this for later reading?
<crimsun> ogra: teams led by a MOTU(s) with possibly major contributions from members and non-members, correct?
<dholbach> dredg: people.u.c/~fabbione/irclogs
<ajmitch> crimsun: yep
<crimsun> ajmitch: ok
<ajmitch> herve: are you a MOTU yet, or going through the process?
<dholbach> ok, is the MOTUTeam thing settled?
<Mithrandir> dredg: http://err.no/tmp/foo.txt is just today's log, very up-to-date.
<dholbach> i dont think we have to form the teams right now :-)
<dholbach> ogra: alright?
<crimsun> I'm clear wrt MOTUTeam
<dredg> cheers
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> the next point will be the most-eagerly discussed one: patches going back to debian
<ajmitch> ah yes
<ogra> sorry, got disconnected
<dholbach> as i proposed on MOTUMeeting: we need some form of easy-to-apply patches (publically, maybe with mail/rss notification), where changes are absolutely obvious
<ogra> my summary of the last topic:
<pitti> ... or documented in the changelog
<ogra> <ogra> teams are led by a motu
<ogra> <ogra> the teams are separated by interests/package selection
<ogra> <ogra> eery team needs a short description on the teams page
<ogra> <ogra> and a packagelist
<ogra> <ogra> team members dont need to be MOTU
<ajmitch> dholbach: we can't expect debian packagers to change their packaging ways, either :)
<dholbach> no we can't
<herve> ajmitch, maintaing is enough for now but being trusted a MOTU some day would be an honor
<dholbach> but we can urge them to, whenever we touch packages and submit out patches to    *.u.c/patches
<crimsun> ogra: great, agreed.
<ogra> k
<ajmitch> they're a notoriously stubborn lot, the debian maintainers ;)
<dholbach> but it's the best we can do... as i see it
<ajmitch> yes
<dholbach> any other plans? ideas?
<ogra> you wont get them doing that i suspect
<ajmitch> and sometimes they'll reject patches because they don't fit well 
<Mithrandir> we really want to get our patches back into debian, since we then don't have to maintain them ourselves.
<herve> hu... sorry I'm catching up...
<ogra> i would like (as i wrote) just make a list of changes we made
<dholbach> Mithrandir: what about the syncing aspect?
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: agreed, the less work we have to do to keep packages in sync, the better
<herve> what's the difference with patches for Ubuntu main packages from Debian?
<ogra> its the up to the DD to pick is particular ones
<pitti> as a general rule of thumb, debdiffs are the most universal form of patch submission
<pitti> they will fit everytime
<pitti> and include changelogs and such
<Mithrandir> dholbach: MOM helps a lot, but it's still a bit of manual work.
<dholbach> Mithrandir: ok... will have to learn about that at some stage
<crimsun> ogra: that should be listed in the changelog - for instance, I enumerate in debian/changelog what each thing I've added to debian/patches/ does, so one can search the hoary-changes archive
<ogra> malone should help there as well
<dholbach> pitti: yeah... but easy to "select" patches would be rocking even more
<pitti> dholbach: one debdiff per change
<pitti> dholbach: unless you changed several things in one upload
<crimsun> pitti: ah, excellent idea
<pitti> dholbach: then of course this needs to be split
<ogra> crimsun: i thougth about a more viewable thing...like a list/websearch etc
<crimsun> ogra: oh ok
<herve> crimsun, is there a policy or procedure on modifying Debian packages yet?
<dholbach> herve: it's happening now :-)
<ogra> herve: dont break it to much
<herve> yes but some draft somewhere on the wiki or the wild internet
<herve> I don't ask for the approved one :)
<ajmitch> herve: it mainly depends on the changes needed & the package, I guess
<ajmitch> there are policies for versioning & the like
<pitti> yes, you should follow the versioning policy in all cases
<Mithrandir> we also want to decide whether we should fix minor bugs or not.
<herve> ok nothing for more advanced cases
<pitti> otherwise this will become a mess
<Mithrandir> like spelling errors and such
<pitti> why not?
<pitti> if somebody wants to?
<ogra> sure
<Mithrandir> pitti: more work to maintain.
<Mithrandir> basically
* herve is picky on spelling mistakes
<dholbach> i guess this is something which would be better to decide we had a cooler architecture
<pitti> Mithrandir: MOM?
<Mithrandir> pitti: mergeomatic
<herve> I think those can wait another revision with more important patches?
<pitti> Mithrandir: if it's _only_ a speling mstake, then it might not be worth the trouble, agreed
<ogra> if i pick a package to maintain. i want it to be as clean as i can get it
<pitti> Mithrandir: but fixing it in addition is fine imho
<Mithrandir> it's just a matter of policy -- I can live with either.
<dholbach> ogra: there's nothing wrong with fixing stuff and with being nitpicking ,but how do we have to change the architecture to make it as easy as possible for debian and us?
<crimsun> Mithrandir: I think minor errors are game; in that case one dpatch in debian/patches/ fixing the like would suffice, no? (easily sent back to Debian)
<pitti> it is easiest if you don't change the architecture :-)
<Mithrandir> (but forcing them to be _clean_ would make my work easier, since I can just continue being really stict when reviewing packages)
<dholbach> pitti: <b>I</b> wouldnt dare it
<ogra> dholbach: as i said before, a list/webinterface where a DD can look for changes on his/her pkg
<ogra> and decide which to adopt
<pitti> dholbach: in some cases I successfully bitched the Debian maintainer to do it :-)
<ogra> so they dont feel we steal their work
<ogra> but rather feel we helped....
<dholbach> i think before hoary is released we should focus on getting things done, after that we need to *magically* get that architecture
<dholbach> so we can do everything as nicely as we can
<ogra> as i said before, i think malone is much of that tool
<dholbach> i heard much about keeping patches in baz
<dholbach> what do you think?
<ajmitch> dholbach: we haven't got much time to get stuff done for hoary :)
<Kamion> dholbach: won't really work until we have imports of all the packages
<ogra> that would require additional baz knowledge for new MOTUs
<Kamion> dholbach: when we do, that'll be great, but it's a dead loss until then
<dholbach> Kamion: ok
<ogra> which is an additional hurdle
<Kamion> Canonical has an employee working on a next-generation baz, which should be much less painful to use
<dholbach> ogra: right... but if it makes things <ever> most easy, that's the way to go
<ogra> dholbach: but that would lower the rate of new MOTUs a lot i guess....
<dholbach> ogra: depends on the tool :-)
<jani> ogra, if done right using it will be easier than learning debian packaging 
<dholbach> ogra: maybe there'll be some automatism
<ogra> guys, baz isnt even fully documented 
<jani> ogra,  true
<ogra> how should one that has never used a versioning tool step in there easily
<pitti> hct
<pitti> :-)
<ogra> i think the learning curve is already quite high if you never did packaging....
<jani> what I'm saying is that if the tool has a nice interface it should be less of a hurdle than dpkg :)
<jani> tla/baz is far from that :(
<pitti> ogra: cdbs is great to make the learnign curve less steep :-)
<herve> ogra, when I started, I inspected other packages and copied some stuff
<ajmitch> pitti: as long as it's documented
<herve> is cdbs documented enough? 
<ajmitch> pitti: I've had to read through the cdbs source a number of times :)
<pitti> well, enough to understand it
<pitti> but not very detailled
<pitti> ajmitch: me too :-)
<ajmitch> and I've had great success harassing jbailey on irc ;)
<ogra> pitti: i have cdbs as suggestion for NEW packages in my notes already ;)
<Mithrandir> pitti: I disagree, I think cdbs is terrible and dh_make-generated stuff is a lot easier to read and understand,.
<ajmitch> but he was also my sponsor for some debian packages
<tritium> Perhaps canonical could set up a bounty for cdbs documentation.
<Mithrandir> that is, it's terrible because you have to read through the source to figure out how it works.
<pitti> Mithrandir: I've seen too many poorly written debian/rules files which weren't more than the dh_make output :-(
* Kamion agrees with Mithrandir
<pitti> okay, but then this is a documentation problem
<tseng> dh_make makes a pretty nasty package
<herve> I lost the topic we're talking about :o
<pitti> Mithrandir: and cdbs has tarball.mk :-)
<dholbach> herve: ++
<pitti> which rocks
<ogra> herve,  The right way to handle upstream bugfixes
<ajmitch> pitti: agreed, I like using that
* pitti cries for dpkg next generation
<ogra> but its a bit offtopic indeed
<herve> ogra, rather sounds like "packaging made easy"
<ogra> heh
<jani> pitti , any link to dpkg-ng talks?
<ajmitch> herve: it is :)
<ogra> ok, did we have any consensus on the topic ?
<Mithrandir> I don't think a rules file with:
<Mithrandir>  #! /usr/bin/make -f
<Mithrandir> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/makefile.mk
<Mithrandir> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk
<Mithrandir> is very understandable either.  Unless you happen to understand cdbs.
<pitti> jani: hmm, ask Keybuk, he has a nice page about it
<dholbach> ogra: not yet
<jani> pitti, ok thanks
<Mithrandir> jani: possibly on dpkg.org
<herve> can we sum up the decisions or proposals about handling upstream bugfixes?
<tritium> But for a new packager, it's less intimidating.
<pitti> Mithrandir: but you have to understand debhelper, too
<Mithrandir> pitti: it has man pages and sensible names. :)
<ogra> i think its easier to understand the basics of packaging without cdbs....
<pitti> (okay, off-topic, agreed)
<dholbach> ogra: we won't sort it out today
<Mithrandir> yeah, off-topic. :)
<ogra> even it may be easier to maintain
<ogra> OK
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, but currently we don't have the equivalent of NM
<tseng> herve: in bugzilla, or packages?
<ogra> NEXT POINT !
* Treenaks reads backlog
<herve> tseng, I lost it long ago
<Mithrandir> can we get a summary first?
<ogra> hmm, did we have any consensus?
<ogra> i didnt see one
<ajmitch> on bugfixes/patches?
<ogra> yup
<dholbach> we want to have cool web-based/mail/rss/baz-architecture
<dholbach> i think that was all
<Mithrandir> dholbach: at some point in the future.
<ogra> which malone might do already
<Mithrandir> and we want to push as many changes back to debian as humanly possible
<ogra> (list with ubuntu changes)
<ajmitch> but for now, use debdiff to get patches to submit to debian maintainers
* tseng takes the "get to know your debian maintainer" approach
<Mithrandir> we'll do minor changes as well as larger and infrastructural stuff, but try not to rip apart the debian packages completely
<tseng> which I think everyone should strive to do, where possible
<ajmitch> tseng: either that or be the debian maintainer :)
<Mithrandir> (larger and infrastructural is like the python transition)
<tseng> hm that will be a whore to get back into debian
<ogra> ok, noted for the summary
<Kamion> like the conventions for people doing non-maintainer uploads in Debian
<Kamion> it's considered polite not to totally change the packaging in an NMU
<pitti> ++
<Kamion> in our case, it's just silly to totally change the packaging - you're making a lot of merge work for yourself in the future
<Kamion> unless you're sure that change will go back to Debian
<Treenaks> How about submitting all (useful) patches from universe to the debian bts?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: true, but we want to do stuff like correct spelling and such, which you wouldn't do in an NMU
<ogra> ok, are we done with the topic ?
<Kamion> Treenaks: it's a matter of filtering
<ogra> oh
<Kamion> Mithrandir: that's true
<Treenaks> Kamion: true, but MOTUs need to do coordinate with the debian maintainers, imho
<Kamion> Treenaks++
<Kamion> but, in the event that you simply can't, you shouldn't let that stop you
* ogra thinks its up to the DD himself....we can just offer stuff
<ajmitch> morning mdz 
<mdz> morning
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, that's all we can do really
<mdz> I had a reminder set to attend this meeting, but was distracted by kubuntu pressures
<Treenaks> ogra: yes, but talking to the d-d is not a bad thing.. knowing who he/she is, knowing a bit about the packages
<mdz> have you talked about Malone yet?
<ogra> mdz: next 
<ajmitch> no, that's next on the list I think
<dholbach> mdz: briefly in hoping it'd make patch-offers-for-debian easier
* bradb is eagerly waiting for that discussion to begin :)
<ogra> Treenaks: sure, but what i propose is just having a list, and let them pick themselves...
<ogra> ...and notify if iwe made changes
<ogra> which i would expect to be possible with malone....so lets move on now :)
<ogra> ok for everyone ?
<ajmitch> ok
<dholbach> ok for me
<ogra> Bug tracking using Malone
<bradb> yeah
<ogra> bradb, tell us about it :)
<bradb> so:
<bradb> i need to get a feel for what you guys need to get rolling with malone
<bradb> here's the goal:
<ogra> btw, thanks for coming
<mdz> you are now bradb's most important customer :-)
<bradb> get universe using Malone ASAP. it's good for you; it's good for me.
<ajmitch> it'll be great for us..
<dholbach> hi sabdfl 
<ajmitch> hi sabdfl 
<sabdfl> hi all
<ogra> yeah
<bradb> so, we have to figure out what needs to happen to get universe on malone
<ogra> hi sabdfl 
<bradb> hi sabdfl 
<bradb> so, first: how many malone users are there for universe?
<Mithrandir> as submitters or packagers?
<pitti> users in the sense of packagers?
<bradb> and from there, what kind of activity could we expect on the system?
<ogra> currently about ten, but we expect to grow a lot soon
<dholbach> bradb: 10 MOTUs + 10 not-yet-MOTUs + developers
<ogra> (MOTU)
<bradb> ok
<bradb> how many bug reports do you think we'd see per day in the system?
<bradb> ballpark
<bradb> like, way ballpark
<Riddell> is malone intended to replace bugzilla.ubuntu.com?
<ogra> yup
<dholbach> there should be some kind of a changelog-extraction to know who worked on the package
<ogra> but universe is the test iirc
<Treenaks> bradb: universe only? 20-ish?
<bradb> Riddell: for universe first, yes. it's intended to be the BTS for the MOTU.
<dholbach> that'd make things most easy
<bradb> Treenaks: ok
<bradb> next: when do you really need to get started?
<bradb> how urgent is this?
<Mithrandir> bradb: bugs.d.o seems to have about 5k bugs/month.
<ogra> as soon as we can
<dholbach> bradb: i wouldnt want to be a pain in the neck, but the current system is a bit chaotic
<ogra> bradb: its a PITA to use ubuntu-users for that
<dholbach> :-)
<Mithrandir> dholbach: what system? ;)
<ajmitch> ogra: or the wiki
<dholbach> Mithrandir: the *pointing wildly around* system
<ogra> heh
<Mithrandir> basically, we don't have any BTS atm.  It sucks, wildly.
<ogra> yup
<bradb> i ask because one of our guys told me it would take about another week to get universe packages imported into Malone.
<Mithrandir> bradb: so three months ago would be nice.
<tseng> a few bugs go through bugzilla anyway
<dholbach> bradb: what will the bug assignment be based on?
<tseng> ive done what I could with them in-place but resolved them UNIVERSE
<bradb> Mithrandir: cool, that makes it easier for you to drink the koolaid
<bradb> :P
<ogra> bradb: if next week is as soon as possible, thats ok ;)
<bradb> dholbach: distro + sourcepackagename
<dholbach> bradb: but we dont own packages in ubuntu
<Mithrandir> bradb: you know this, but running something as big as universe (heck, even just main) without a BTS is madness.  If next week is what we get, then next week is fine.
<bradb> next: how do we verify that malone is suitable for your purposes, for a first go? remember, we're not trying to knock you out in round 1.
<dholbach> bradb: so everyone who worked on a package should be possible bug fixer
<ogra> cros bug fixer
<bradb> dholbach: that's how it is right now. wiki-mode task editing.
<ogra> cross even
<bradb> (for distro side, anyway)
<tseng> re that, do we have a policy for bugs which are "upstream"
<ajmitch> bradb: universe maintainership is fairly loose, thankfully
<tseng> and there isnt an obvious fix/patch
<Mithrandir> tseng: somebody adopts the bug and talks to upstream?
<tseng> the one im refereing to isnt even reproducable afaict
<bradb> ogra: would it be you that would look at malone to see if it's sane for basic universe usage? mdz? sabdfl? all of the above?
<Treenaks> tseng: fix bug, send patch to upstream. or tell upstream there's a bug, hope they fix it
<tseng> i asked the user to work on an already open bug upstream
<tseng> in the case im refering to
<ogra> bradb: i don like to be responsible alone as long as i can have more eyes helping out....laets make it a small group ....
<dholbach> bradb: does the MOTU crew get a preview? :-)
<bradb> i just need a single point of contact between me and universe.
<ogra> ok, that would be me or dholbach, since we do the administrativa
<Mithrandir> I would be happy with ogra
<ajmitch> ogra: lucky vic^Wvolunteers :)
<bradb> dholbach: can you all access dogfood? we might need to sort out. i'd be more than happy to schedule something like that in the next day or two.
<Mithrandir> I guess we'll whine if stuff passes them but needs fixing still
<bradb> ogra: then it's you! :P
<ogra> ok
<ajmitch> great
<dredg> sorry i've missed the past er.. while.. day job got in the way ;)
<dredg> where are we?
<ajmitch> dredg: malone
<bradb> ok, so, to recap, here's what we've figured out so far:
<dredg> (i'll catch up on the older stuff in a bit)
<bradb> 1. the universe traffic should be easily manageble by malone
<bradb> 2. we have stuff to do, but we can hopefully get universe imported within a week (depending on what the gina guys can do for me)
<dredg> ajmitch: cheers
<bradb> 3. we need a session to demo malone, and ensure it's usable for a first go, for your guys' purposes.
<dholbach> cool
<bradb> 4. ogra is my point of contact for universe; dholbach is my backup contact for universe.
<tseng> can I ask a stupid question? probably already been addressed even
* dholbach is just a bit confused by gina and dogfood
* jani too
<ogra> tseng: no
<ogra> tseng: ask a wise one ;-P
<tseng> well, im wondering what malone does over bugzilla.
<dholbach> i didnt follow the development cycle of malone
<Treenaks> gina sounds like one of the ftp-admin tools
<Treenaks> dogfood is 
<Treenaks> uh
<bradb> dholbach: gina is the thing that does package imports. dogfood is app we use for internal usage only of the apps.
<tseng> im sure it does something crazy cool, its just not apperant from the web interface that I can see
<ogra> tseng: the power is under the hod ;)
<ogra> hood even
<dholbach> bradb: ok, nice to know you're working on it
<dholbach> bradb: with the gina and dogfood guys :-)
<bradb> heh
<herve> tseng, piloting a BTS-like platform from e-mails cannot be seen from a Web interface :-)
<ogra> if i understood correctly, malone will care for the flwback of bugfixes to debian
<bradb> how should we schedule the demo session then? when should it be scheduled for? who absolutely must attend?
<ajmitch> ogra: that will rock
<dholbach> bradb: we could meet on irc or mail the concrete date and time
<ogra> bradb: 1. i'm free all the time, just tell me a date 2. aks the others that want to attend then 3. as many MOTUs we can get
<bradb> I'm thinking a little lead time would be useful, so maybe we should aim for Mondayish.
<ogra> bard: ok... i'll sort it out with the others then
<crimsun> Monday, 14 March 2005?
<bradb> we need to ensure you guys can access dogfood too
<ogra> oops s/bard/bradb
<ajmitch> bradb: that would be good
<Treenaks> sounds ok
<dredg> ok, we know what to do... we can work out the finer points after the meeting
<dredg> (imo)
<ogra> crimsun: 7th ?
<bradb> crimsun: march 7th :)
<crimsun> bradb: ah, ok.
<sabdfl> just reading scrollback, i didn't see an explanation for you guys about why malone is worth doing over bugzilla
<sabdfl> should i run through that now, and bradb can correct me if i take a wrong turn?
<tseng> please.
<ogra> yay
<dredg> sabdfl: bugzilla is heinous ;)
<bradb> sabdfl: please do :)
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> I think the problems with bugzilla are widely acknowledged, but sure :-)
<sabdfl> first off, malone is brand new, minimalist, and likely to have bugs. yay
<sabdfl> you guys are the distro guinnea pigs, but i hope you will love the vision
<sabdfl> so that's what i'll pitch
<pitti> will it ease propagating patches to Debian?
<sabdfl> pitti: yes, explicitly
<pitti> that was the main concern IIRC
<sabdfl> malone is a BTS for the whole open source world, if they want it
<sabdfl> you can use it for an upstream project
<sabdfl> you can use it for ubuntu, and derivatives
<sabdfl> and you can easily keep track of the state of a bug anywhere in that system
<sabdfl> so
<sabdfl> a user files a bug on a source package in universe
<pitti> sure, I mean, does that help for the MOTUs right now? I. e. is all of this already implemented?
<herve> I guess Malone is supposed to be user-friendly too?
<pitti> if so, then it is certainly worth a try
<sabdfl> someone here looks at that and says "hey, that's upstream", so they mark it as upstream
<sabdfl> this much works already
<herve> which bugzilla hardly is with the default interface
<pitti> cool
* pitti wants it too
<ogra> herve, https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone
<sabdfl> upstream can see their bugs, and we can see bugs on source packages
<sabdfl> comments are shared between everyone who sees the bug
<pitti> sabdfl: don't you think a bunch of "real" users would be good to develop Malone further?
<dredg> sabdfl: right. the main thing here is that currently it's recommended to report bugs to ubuntu-users. that ml is already *very* high volume, and bug reporting to a mailing list is imo a bad idea
<herve> ogra, thanks
<sabdfl> there are some real users already - bazaar, and lp internal
<ogra> pitti: thats what we are starting right now
<sabdfl> dredg: once the basics are working in malone we will direct users to malone
<sabdfl> people can mark a bug fixed in *their* part of the open source world
<sabdfl> so at a glance you can see "ah, upstream have fixed this bug"
<sabdfl> similarly, if we fix a bug, and it's also been flagged as upstream, then upstream will see that we fixed it
<pitti> sabdfl: does it interact with debbugs?
<sabdfl> pitti: steady on
<dredg> sabdfl: ok, this sounds very promising
<sabdfl> the idea is to encourage people to collaborate
<sabdfl> we will sync all debbugs bugs into malone
<sabdfl> and we will keep track of them
<sabdfl> so, when debian fixes a bug, we see that it is fixed, and will show that in malone
<Treenaks> cool
<sabdfl> and we will also spec a feature to tell debian when we fix it 
<sabdfl> automatically
<dredg> nice
<sabdfl> as long as the maintainer wants that
<pitti> ^ that's what I meant
<pitti> for pushing back patches
<ajmitch> sounds useful
<pitti> that would rock
<sabdfl> yes
<dredg> ok, currently how usable is malone?
<sabdfl> further down the line, this will integrate with baz
<sabdfl> so when you make a patch, it can propagate and be tracked at a code level
<sabdfl> dredg: the basic structure is there, but there is a LOT of work to be done
<sabdfl> there's been no heavy usage, and so lots of things will irritate you
<dredg> fair enough
<sabdfl> i am confident it will be pretty polished by the time we get to hoary+1
<ogra> since we are the testers ;)
<bradb> dredg: we've just doubled the size of the development team though (2 people! :), and indeed, Real Users (TM) is the best way i've found to do the things most useful for users as early as possible.
<ogra> it has to be :)
<dholbach> i'm already excited about it
<dredg> ok. but it seems to me that having active testers doing real things would be a good thing
<pitti> but at some point real guinea^testers are just required to see how it behaves in practice
<pitti> dredg: :-)
<ogra> im excited about it since mataro....but still wait.....
<dredg> provided that it's not so young that it can kill work
* Nafallo seconds ogra :-) *
<dredg> ie there's not much point using it at all even for real-world tests if it eats the bugs/kills my cat/whatever
* ogra wanted to take part in MOTUGuineapigs anyway (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUTeams)
<dholbach> dredg: look at the current situation, how could it kill work? :-)
<sabdfl> dredg: it wont eat your bugs
<bradb> dredg: it's stable. you won't lose data. there will be some things that will annoy you though, like sabdfl said.
<dredg> dholbach: point taken :)
<sabdfl> it might just require more clicking than you'd like
<dredg> sabdfl: i can live with that
<sabdfl> s/might/will/ :-)
<ajmitch> dholbach: it leaves us stunned & amazed in awe? :)
<ajmitch> sabdfl: any BTS will be better than what we have :)
<sabdfl> ajmitch: stunned like a brick between the eyes?
<dholbach> :-)
<ogra> the current situation can only improve....
<ajmitch> there is that..
<sabdfl> ok, that's enough smileys to win any battle with
<dredg> sabdfl: the idea of tracking bugs via a ml gives me The Fear
<Treenaks> more clicking... that's not bad, as long as there's a way of reporing it :)
<Treenaks> which is probably there :)
<Mithrandir> email interface?
<sabdfl> dude, luurrve debbugs - it's a mlmgr!
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: not yet, but in the works
<bradb> Mithrandir: notifications yes, but no reporting interface yet
<herve> was there some discussion already done about not developing a user-friendly interface over BTS?
<dredg> sabdfl: the idea of tracking bugs via a ml as high volume as ubuntu-users makes me die inside
<Mithrandir> it would be _very_ useful to be able to bug manipulation through email
<sabdfl> true
<dholbach> ajmitch: we'll be rocking universe even harder... 
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: you'll have that by bendy, promise
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: yay. :)
<ajmitch> and an emacs interface as well.. 
<ogra> bendy ? is it official now ?
<sabdfl> ogra: oops. no.
<ogra> he
<ogra> h
<sabdfl> working title
<pitti> ajmitch: rather a command line tool like "bts"
<Mithrandir> pitti: both
<pitti> "bts tag 12345 pending" is really cool
<ajmitch> pitti: yes, but I like to be able to view the list of bugs in emacs when working on the changelog
<herve> pitti, rather a graphical tool for end users?
<ajmitch> that is useful, I agree
<dredg> ajmitch: bah. emacs. no matter what the users say about it i maintain that, like sendmail, lacks a decent editor and mta
<sabdfl> for example, here are the bugs in bazaar (the distributed rcs)
<sabdfl> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/products/bazaar/
<Treenaks> ajmitch: bts query 12345
<ogra> ok, there are still three topics left 
<ogra> are we done with malone ?
<ajmitch> Treenaks: I know, but I like emacs still :)
<ajmitch> ogra: three topics left & the sun is rising here
<dredg> ok, i'm happy enough with malone
<bradb> i think so. i'll get the demo sorted with you guys by later today. (i.e. a firm date/time)
<Treenaks> ogra: I think we're done with malone
<dholbach> bradb: cooool
<dredg> yes it may require more clicking but if it benefits us long term (and everyone else) then it can't be a bad thing
<ajmitch> bradb: thanks
<ogra> ok, next is: questions regarding ChanServ? and the like ??
<herve> we don't need to be so many ops
<dredg> ogra: simple. add a bunch of trusted users (5-10) to the access list who can op when needed
<Treenaks> ogra: nobody ops, MOTUs voice, MOTU Masters can get ops to get rid of abuse?
<dredg> that many ops are unneeded
<dredg> the current access policies are on crack
<ogra> Treenaks, ++
<dholbach> dredg: ++
<ajmitch> dredg: agreed
<herve> Treenaks, agree
<Treenaks> (voice is for the "visual distinction" Mithrandir asked for)
<dholbach> i dont think we need that
<ogra> how is it handled in -devel currently
<ogra> ?
<dholbach> and i dont like it, to be honest
<Mithrandir> not
<dredg> Treenaks: yeah. the key here is "can get ops"
<dredg> i'm not sure we need voice
<ajmitch> ogra: topic isn't locked in devel
<Treenaks> ajmitch: I'm for unlocking it in -motu
<ogra> is it locked in -motu ?
<dredg> motu should be a collaborative channel by MOTUs, contributers and j.random stranger
<ajmitch> if only a couple of people can get ops, then unlock topic
<Treenaks> ogra: mode -t
<ogra> ah
<sabdfl> quick question - are the MOTU the full set of people who can upload to universe? or the people who approve people to upload?
<sabdfl> are they the MMOTU?
<ogra> sabdfl: i confused that in the beginning
<ogra> sabdfl: so vurrently MOTU is every uploader to universe
<ogra> s/v/c
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> let's leave it that way
<dredg> sabdfl: for the most part everone in -motu is a contributer on some level
<ogra> and we have some motu masters
<sabdfl> and MOTUM are the people who can approve new MOTU
<sabdfl> gotcha
<dredg> ah, you mean MOTU as opposed to the channel...
<ogra> for approval and administrativa
<dholbach> i don't think we need voices, you can always look up or ask who's a MOTU
<ogra> sabdfl: it just sounds cooler to your friends to say "i became a MOTU today" 
<tseng> there need not be a distiction between members and non members
<dredg> ogra: meh
<dholbach> it's like dredg said: " everone in -motu is a contributer on some level"
<tseng> I felt none when i worked on mono stuff for hoary
<ogra> so we agree on unlocking the topic, no ops and a list off administartive ops ppl
<ajmitch> ogra: agreed, we've got to get those tshirts printed for conferences  ;)
<tseng> I was treated the same as everyone else working on ubuntu
<ogra> ajmitch: YAY !!! +++
<dredg> i don't see the need for separation or 'classes' of users in the channel
<Mithrandir> ajmitch: "I am your MASTER"?
<dholbach> yeah, dredg ++
<ogra> Mithrandir: yeah
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: sounds good
<dredg> it's pointless. anyone who contributes is doing their job
<herve> tseng, I would even think you were already a MOTU at the beginning! 
<ogra> Mithrandir: dont punish to much ;)
<dholbach> could we decide on the chanserv thing now? :-)
<dholbach> please :-)
<ogra> so we agree on unlocking the topic, no ops and a list off administartive ops ppl
<ogra> ??
<dredg> ogra: yes
<herve> agree
<ogra> ok, noted for the summary
<tseng> same as #-devel
<Mithrandir> ogra: ok
<ogra> next:  what can we do that our approval process doesnt slow down as much as debians NM process if the masses start rushing in
<dholbach> we need more reviewers
<ajmitch> reviewers of packages?
<ogra> do we want a policy that a new MOTU has to review a certain amount of pkgs ?
<dholbach> the system sabdfl appointed in last tb meeting is sufficient in my eyes
<ajmitch> dholbach: summary of that?
<ogra> 5 packages sponsored
<ogra> its not enough in my eyes
<ogra> but fine in the fast approval process we're currently in
<tseng> I would disagree with any sort of policy forcing work on volunteers
<Mithrandir> tseng: ack
<dredg> i don't think you can gauge it on number of packages..
<Mithrandir> some packages are big and hard and evil, while others are small and trivial
<sabdfl> new folks should focus on small, then grow, though
<ogra> tseng: if its a premise 
<dholbach> we should make sure, people communicate nicely, people minding only their own stuff, it's a matter of trusting
<dholbach> s/, people minding only their own stuff/
<tseng> ogra: would it make more sense to have people specifically allocated to reviewing packages?
<dholbach> tseng: anyone who finds the time
<ogra> tseng: sure, but we dont have them yet
<dholbach> you won't find anyone who is "just the review guy"
<ogra> tseng: so forcing newbies will probably help both sides
<ogra> tseng: i learned a lot more about packaging by reviewing others packages
<Treenaks> ogra: newbies will learn a lot from that, especially if they review together with some other people
<ogra> yup
<ogra> thats my point
<dholbach> furthermore we should find a way of tracking the things people do, not a documentation overhead, but something to get an impression of what people do/work on
<dholbach> then it'll be a lot easier to approve people
<ajmitch> dholbach: you've done a good start on that with the wiki
<ogra> that should be sorted in the groups stuff
<dredg> dholbach: so what you're saying is that there should be a better way of communicating with other contributers?
<herve> dholbach, their wiki homepage?
<dholbach> take wasabi for example: if you saw his plan on wiki/JavaProgress, you knew he was up for the job
<dholbach> that added to some nice packages he did should make the decision easy
<ogra> dholbach: i think currently your list is enough...
<ogra> if everybody cares to update regulary
<dholbach> yeah, but we should have an agreement for every MOTU to subscribe to it :-)
<ogra> yup
<ogra> but it will get a mess in the future
<dholbach> and an agreement to do reviews :-)
<ogra> we should keep a better system in mind
<dholbach> yeah... maybe team-based
<ajmitch> dholbach: I think most of the current MOTUs do reviews anyway
<ogra> since you dont want a wiki page with a list of 1000s of packages
<tritium> personally, I'm a private person.  I don't blog, and don't keep a homepage or wiki page.
<ajmitch> tritium: so am I, but it does make it easier to track work
<dholbach> i think we should collect ideas on this issue and the provide-patches-for-debian issue and discuss it in the next meeting
<ogra> great idea
<dholbach> these 2 points are really a lot of work
<ogra> dholbach ++
<tritium> ajmitch, yes...
<tseng> agreed
<dholbach> thanks
<dholbach> next item would be " Opportunity of a MOTU dedicated mailing-list. " :-)
* dredg waves the 'i like mailing lists' flag
<ajmitch> ah, that's another topic, next meeting time :)
<ogra> argl
<dholbach> i like the idea too
<tseng> im pondering what the usefulness is at present time
<dholbach> since the current mailing lists really are a bit crowded
<tseng> we get devel topics on -devel list
<dholbach> we already have 3-4 people not showing up in IRC often
<tseng> and we really want packages to be reviewed to go to the wiki
<ogra> i dont like it
<dholbach> well... atm it is only package reviewing
<ogra> everything can be done through -devel currently....
<herve> the idea is also to lower the traffic on -users
<dholbach> but the organisation of teams will be another issue soon
<tseng> package review should go to our wiki
<dholbach> herve: yeah
<ogra> it would fragmet the stuff
<tseng> we can make a better document on the proceedure
<dholbach> ogra: there's nothing wrong with separating things from each other
<dholbach> i think
<tseng> if it doesnt already exist in the "how to be an motu" docs
<ogra> it is, if they arerelated to the same task
<tseng> indeed
<dholbach> but we'll grow
<ogra> and MOTU is simply -devel
<tseng> hm im not sure what "simple" part you work on :P
<ogra> administrative things can be done through -users or on irc
<ajmitch> I don't think we need to separate universe development from main development
<dholbach> i think it's no problem subscribing to 2 lists
<ogra> i dont see the need for a ML yet....probably later
<dredg> er ok.
<dredg> 1. irc is not convenient for everyone
<tseng> dholbach: the problem is, everyone subscribes to 2 lists, which isnt always convenient
<tritium> dholbach, once I return to my job, IRC will not be an option for me.
<dredg> 2. users is very high volume. very very very
<tseng> and those who are unaware miss out
<herve> as for now, MOTU mails must to -devel?
<tseng> herve: thats the question.. what are MOTU mails?
<ogra> dredg: since users is dedicated to universe, we should read it anyway (at least i do that)
<ogra> herve: devel mails must to devel, yes
<dholbach> well.. ok... atm we dont seem to have the need for it... we collect pros and cons on the wiki and discuss it in two months, ok? :-)
<dredg> ogra: right. i get 500+ mails/day for mailing lists associated with my job. i killed my sub to users cos i'd end up with thousands of unread mails
<jani> dredg, consider reading though gmane
<jani> so you don;'t get you inbox flooded
<ogra> in my definition motu mails are devel mails or administartive motu stuff...
<Mithrandir> jani: the problem is the volume.
<Mithrandir> jani: and gmane doesn't solve that
<dredg> jani: oh, and i hate web interfaces :)
<tseng> I admit that ive also unsubbed from -users
<jani> mithrandir: you only pick the subjects you care about ;)
<tseng> it wasnt useful for me to have it pile up unread
<dredg> jani: especially for something that is not web based
<jani> gmane through thunderbird ;)
<ajmitch> dredg: use nntp then
<jani> of course not the web
<jani> nntp that's what I implied but not said actually
<herve_> I do read lists over gmane.org
<ajmitch> that's how I read it
<ogra> for me -users is a big pool of things that are needed....there are te suggestions what is missing, and we are the guys to solve the missing bit, since we are more free then the main crew
<jani> since I switched to nntp I can follow a lot more lists
<herve_> it's far better than regular mail or Web forums (*sigh*)
<dholbach> ok... shall we re-discuss it in 2 months?
<Mithrandir> jani: my news reader and mail reader is the same, so it doesn't matter.  -users is too high-volume for a lot of MOTU to follow it.
<herve> dholbach, in 2 month, Malone will have changed things, moreover
<dholbach> ok
<ogra> herve: and currently we are about 10 motus...so i still see no need for a own ML
<ogra> since amloe will change a lot
<dholbach> ok
<ogra> malone even
<ogra> lets reschedule the task for times we are 50 MOTUs or more 
<herve> ogra, it's also for all packagers, not just the reviewers
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> conclusion is: there are an awful LOT of things to decide now, because we will grow... i will set up wikipages soon to collect ideas and to re-discuss things. i'd appreciate it, if you'd add your ideas, too.
<herve> what topic are left? (I must go soon)
<ogra> none, 
<ajmitch> herve: that was the last on the page
<ogra> ...
<herve> good!
<herve> :-)
<ajmitch> I think we just need to argue about the next meeting time :)
<ogra> so about the next meeting
<herve> I can't leave you then
<ogra> as i asked in the beginning, how often should we hold this
<herve> I'm not very productive with my cough anyway
<ogra> monthly ? 
<tseng> monthly.
<dholbach> yeah
<jani> ok
<ogra> next time an hour later ?
<dholbach> nice :-)
<ogra> (for Treenaks )
<ajmitch> monthly
<dholbach> and poor ajmitch 
<Treenaks> ogra: uh that's OK
<ajmitch> heh
<ogra> again on Thursday ?
<ajmitch> ok
<ogra> ok, next meeting will be on march 31 2005 17:30 utc
<ogra> four weeks from now...
<dredg> cool
<dholbach> very nice
<ajmitch> just before hoary release?
<Treenaks> ajmitch: why not :)
<ogra> i'll write a summary and send it to -devel and -users
<dholbach> thanks ogra, thank you very much
<dredg> OT: does anyone know of who is in the list of 'strongly signed' keys?
<ogra> expect it in half an hour
<ajmitch> Treenaks: as long as we can have a release party as well ;)
<ogra> dredg: everyone you find on the keyservers
<dredg> i need to arrange to get my key signed, even if i have to fax my passport and drivers licence to another country
<ajmitch> dredg: most people with a GPG key who are involved in debian or ubuntu :)
<ogra> dredg: (signed that is)
<ajmitch> eg any DD
<ajmitch> nearly any
<ogra> dredg, http://keyserver.mine.nu/
<dredg> ajmitch: right. i note the lack of any strongly signed keyholders in ireland :)
* ajmitch takes a look
<dredg> though hmmm
<Treenaks> ogra: not subkeys.pgp.net?
<ogra> Treenaks: works too :)
<ajmitch> dredg: I see 5 DDs in ireland
<dredg> ajmitch: eh?
<ogra> so thank you for everybody attending here...meeting is closed
<ajmitch> dredg: see db.debian.org
<ajmitch> ogra: thanks
<dholbach> thanks ogra, again :-)
<tritium> thanks :)
<Kamion> dredg: the strong set's pretty trivial to get into
<Treenaks> yeah, ask #ubuntu-nl :P
<jani> kamion, not in romania apparently ;(
<jani> by all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ogra] : Tuesday 8 March 2005 16:00 UTC Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tuesday 1 March 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || Thursday 31 March 2005 17:30 UTC http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-03-18
* OddAbe19 is away: Gone... Like the French in a battle.
* OddAbe19 is away: Gone... Like the French in a battle.
<Mithrandir> OddAbe19: please turn off public away.
<OddAbe19> sorry
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-03-19
<fabbione> thom: ping?
<fabbione> ops
<mako> greetings everyone!
<joaocruz> hello!
<zul> hey mako
* m_tthew waves UTC
<mako> alright.. let me round up the rest of the troops
<mako> Kamion: around?
<Kamion> oh, damn, I had mail to reply to before the CC meeting ...
<Kamion> yes
<mako> quickly quickly :)
<mako> Kamion: there's still time
<pitti> Hi
<sabdfl> hello all
<sabdfl> sorry i'm late
* m_tthew waves
<amu> moins
<fabbione> hi
<mvo> hi
* Kamion sends abbreviated mail
<mako> no problem
<dholbach> hi
<mako> there's not a huge amount of new things on the agenda this week
<seb128> hey
<sabdfl> everybody here from the CC?
<sabdfl> who do we have from the TB as well?
<mako> haven't heard from elmo yet
<mako> but i just messaged him
<Mithrandir> elmo is on a plane, isn't he?
<joaocruz> ubuntu-pt here
<sabdfl> thom: could you nudge elmo please?
<mako> Mithrandir: where would he be on a plane to?
<Mithrandir> mako: London, I imagine
<sabdfl> if elmo's on a plane it's because he found my wallet in my flat an hour ago :-)
<Kamion> haha
<Kamion> ok :)
<sabdfl> BaHAmas!
<fabbione> ahahah
<Mithrandir> sabdfl :)
<sabdfl> so how does the agenda look?
<mako> shortish.. which is good because i think we're all pretty swamped at the moemnt
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> smurfix: you around?
<sabdfl>     LogiotatidisGiorgos       TimoJyrinki / FinnishTeam        KarianneGrnningster (Simira) / Ubuntu Norway Community       JoaoCruz / PortugueseTeam    
<sabdfl> any of these guys here?
<joaocruz> ubuntu-pt here
<mako> smurfix seems to be slightly allergic to this meeting time
<Mirv> I'm (timo) here again
<Mithrandir> Karianne is not a guy, but I'll wake her.
<sabdfl> :-)
<sabdfl> greetings joaocruz
<joaocruz> greetings
<fabbione> ohi joaocruz 
<joaocruz> hey
<mako> joaocruz: ola
<sabdfl> anything we can do to help your plans for portugal?
<Mithrandir> Karianne will be around in a couple of minutes
<sabdfl> big thing that's coming up on our side is a mass import of hoary PO's into Rosetta, so if you have translation-oriented mates it would be great to start getting them ready
<joaocruz> we started gathering a team, and setup up our wiki page
<joaocruz> I had asked smurfix for a server to host the wiki
<sabdfl> we will have only a short time to polish any untranslated strings - portuguese should be pretty good right out the block
<mako> Mirv: we should have removed you from the agenda
<opi> hi guys
<mako> Mirv: that that we don't like hearing from you but we don't need to have the same conversatino every two weeks :)
<sabdfl> hey opi
<sabdfl> ok, so one wiki
<mako> opi: oi!
<opi> I glad I make it, I had to run agains the wind and snow
<sabdfl> i guess that's something we need a plan for, for all the loco teams
<opi> oi makosan
<Mirv> mako: yes, I thought I'd pop up as I was still there :) and there was some talk that a correct guy (handling locoteam stuff) wasn't around the last time
<sabdfl> mako: do you think it would help if we setup a rackspace or other type server, gave some sort of admin to smurfix and a loco-coordinators team, and let the guys go wild on that?
<Simira> I'm here
<sabdfl> don't let elmo hear me say that, but since he's not here...
<opi> well, too bad smurfix is away
<mako> sabdfl: i'm not entirely clear how how smurfix is doing this now actually.. but yes. it might be good to give a dedicated space for the loco sites, etc
<sabdfl> what's that xen-based or other virtual-pc  based hosting company?
<mako> sabdfl: there are loads of them
<opi> linode.org? )
<Riddell> bytemark
<sabdfl> linode, that's the one
<mako> sabdfl: but linode is the one that does ubuntu
<mako> sabdfl: although i suspect there will be many more ubuntu uml places soon
<sabdfl> would we consider anything else? :-)
<mako> granted :)
<sabdfl> debian, of course
<opi> actualy, I was thinking about setting a Ubuntu server for Polish team members at my workplace
<sabdfl> and that should be easy to find
<sabdfl> opi - it will likely always be easier if you have total control of the box
<sabdfl> but we could maybe offer a standard low-cost low-bandwidth option to all the LoCo teams
<sabdfl> Kamion: ?
<mako> right, we don't want to keep teams from doing what they are comfortable doing.. but for people that need the help, we should offer it
<opi> sabdfl: I would. I have one Ubuntu server there, but I can't let people outside company use it
<Kamion> sabdfl: yes?
<opi> but my boss will not mind to host another ubuntu box, we have a Ubuntu mirror allready ;)
<mako> Simira: is this something that would interest you?
<mako> Simira: or the norweigan people since you're now empowered to speak for them
<sabdfl> Kamion: think it's a good idea to have a standard hosting option for the loco's that doesn't involve our admins?
<opi> Simira: claim for ubuntu-no.org :)
<Mithrandir> opi: it's already claimed.
<mako> smurfix is alread offering something like this
<Mithrandir> opi: and we have ubuntu.no
<Kamion> sabdfl: seems like that'd depend mostly on whether our admins are feeling overworked dealing with loco stuff?
<Mithrandir> which is pointing to the right place.
<mako> ideally, i'd like having the loco team coordinator handle this sort of stuff
<joaocruz> smurfix mentioned he was going to set up a server and I would admin part of it
<opi> yes, our Wiki site is hosted at Smurfix server
<sabdfl> i'm mainly thinking that this would give them the freedom to choose wiki / cms / scripting language (lua :-) etc
<mako> yeah, absolutely
<Kamion> certainly something standard that can be rolled out identically for each loco without much effort would be a good thing
<sabdfl> they might well share work between them
<opi> and this would take lots of load from admins
<Kamion> I mean identically to start with
<sabdfl> ok, i'll look into it
<mako> but the admin contact could be the loco team coordinator
<joaocruz> that freedom would be cool
<Simira> mako: might be interesting, yes
<opi> because they wouldn't have to know every solution in existance ;-)
<mako> since they'd be doing stuff that our admins might be, er.. *cough*PHP*cough*
<sabdfl> exhactly
<mako> sabdfl: yeah. lets find out exactly what smurf is doing
<mako> sabdfl: and then find out how we can do it better
<opi> Mithrandir: we have recived ubuntu.pl form a person who bought it, becuase of Ubuntu spirit :)
<mako> in terms of dedicated machines, etc. we have a few easy ideas already
<Kamion> can we have the next CC meeting at a time when smurfix can be around, so we can sync up with him?
<sabdfl> ok. joaocruz: any particular plans or projects in portugal you want to tell us about?
<mako> Kamion: yes.. UTC20 might work for him
<sabdfl> which tz is smurfix in? non-work EU?
<mako> sabdfl: i think this is commute time for him
<opi> CET I think
<sabdfl> ok
<opi> he's in London, right?
<amu> smurfix: is .de
<mako> opi: germany
<opi> normally, yes
<opi> but he left for a short period, no?
<joaocruz> sabdfl no formal plans yet, but we have team members in two big universities that are spreading the word and using ubuntu to support their projects
<opi> abelli told me that :)
<sabdfl> i'm not keen to move the CC to 20h00 every time, but we can try other times to include specific people for specific things
<mako> opi: possibly. i didn't hear about it
<mako> sabdfl: sure
<sabdfl> i have a EMARIANNE situation to contend with
<sabdfl> joaocruz: ok. if anything comes up, smurfix is your guy, or join us here to talk about it
<sabdfl> any other LoCo folks?
<Mithrandir> SOs are important, so that's understandable. :)
<joaocruz> sure
<Q-FUNK> re.  sorry I'm late.
<mako> sabdfl: i'll ask smurf what time works better.. since i think i'm the most far west of the people taht neesd to be there.. we could even goa  few hours earlier
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: welcome
<opi> sabdfl: Polish team already coworking with Smurfix, so we can handle it in sane manner 
* fabbione repropose a natural rotation for meetings to accomodate everybody
<sabdfl> next up... Member candidates:     JerryHaltom       AaronLake       HervCauwelier       Arnaud Vandyck       MartinEricRacine       HiweedLeng       MatthewWeaver   
<opi> sabdfl: and we want to do our stuff (Wiki/forum) first, then we can play with servers :)
<sabdfl> who's here?
<sabdfl> fabbione: good idea
<dholbach> jerryhaltom passed last time
<m_tthew> I am matthew weaver
<mako> soryr.. forgot to remove jerry halton
<mako> m_tthew: lets go in order
<herve> HervCauwelier here
<sabdfl> aaron lake?
* Q-FUNK is MartinEricRacine
<dholbach> just called metallikop (AaronLake)
<mako> we also handled aaron lake last time
<mako> dholbach: didn't we?
<dholbach> mako: he became member
<sabdfl> ok, mako, are you moving them to the Members list?
<sabdfl> herve: you're up
<mako> sabdfl: i did a very poor job of resetting the agenda this time around
<sabdfl> mako: np, did traffic go out though?
<smurfix> gah. Now present-
<sabdfl> hiya smurfix
<dholbach> herve should definitely become member
<opi> hi smurfix 
<smurfix> sorry about being late
<sabdfl> smurfix, could you get in touch with linode.org and ask them for a bulk price on 100 basic Ubuntu nodes?
<mako> sabdfl: a traffic went out but i'm still a couple weeks back. i sent summaries of the meetings to -news
<sabdfl> herve: what's your specialty, and what's your focus area going to be for ubuntu?
<smurfix> sabdfl: can do. I've been using my own server but if traffic increases it's going to be underpowered.
<herve> I focus on Python & Zope, and would like to take care of conglomerate
<herve> I have packages I want to enter into Ubuntu
<sabdfl> smurfix: maybe we can do a deal with linode, give them a good price on general ubuntu support in exchange for LoCo nodes?
<herve> and work in the MOTU
<smurfix> joaocruz: I'll get to setup your server tonight
<sabdfl> herve: ok, so code-oriented
<dholbach> he's python/zope specialist and integrated himself into the team VERY nicely
<dholbach> :-)
<herve> in a word, I'm a maintainer yes
<sabdfl> herve: have you worked with doko, and on the PythonTransitionMOTU-TODO?
<mako> great
<herve> sabdfl, had few times, but discussed with them
<herve> I was focusing on Debian packages for a project I'm in
<tseng> its better to get NEW packages into Debian via a sponsor if you can manage it
<dholbach> and resolved some python issues
<herve> I've just finished them this night, now I have more time for the motu
<dholbach> i'm glad he's around :-)
<sabdfl> tseng: we can take new packages immediately
<herve> tseng, that's my plan
<sabdfl> folks shoudl still upload to debian
<herve> tseng, now my packages are ready, i'll contact d.mentors
<sabdfl> but we don't have to wait, for universe
<herve> I'd like to be a DD too :-)
<doko> sabdfl: worked with him on some packages he did
<tseng> herve: great :)
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: problem is that Debian's NEW is so slow ATM.
<herve> but we need to set a plan for python & zope helper scripts with doko and the others
<sabdfl> membership is more about commitment to the overall ubuntu project, maintainership (TB) is the code angle
<jbailey> herve: If there's anything I can help with on the cdbs side, ping me.
<Kamion> herve++ for member, anyway, based on what I've seen and on dholbach's comments
<herve> Mithrandir, it's even stalled for days. a flamewar even started on their lists
* Q-FUNK loves cdbs
<seb128> jbailey: may I ping you have multi-build ? :p
<sabdfl> so herve you'll need to be back next week to get the go-ahead from the TB on the uploading front
<Mithrandir> herve: I'm a DD, I'm on debian-devel; I know. :)
<seb128> s/have/to have/
<sabdfl> first universe, then maybe main too
* mako nods at kamion
<herve> jbailey, I need to learn cdbs so I can be a tester, np
<herve> Mithrandir, oops soory :)
<sabdfl> CC guys other than Kamion, on herve for member?
<herve> there was another interesting plan for a zope script for cdbs
<opi> I would relay on dholbach comments regarding herve :-)
<jbailey> seb128: For you, I might have an anechoic coating like a submarine. =)
<mako> sabdfl: i already said yes (unclearly perhaps)
<mako> sounds great
<sabdfl> mako: ok, i see the nod now :-)
<seb128> jbailey: ah ah
<herve> note my gpg key is not yet strongly cosigned
<sabdfl> cool, welcome aboard herve
<dholbach> *rock*
<mako> herve: mail me a signed CoC
<sabdfl> herve: that's mainly an issue for the TB, we can possibly help using a notary
<herve> well, thank you all
<herve> mako, noted
<dholbach> another word on AaronLake (metalikop): i talked to him about MOTUness... it's just he "fell into miscredit" because of a package with a suid binary he proposed... his work on universepythontransitiontodo was really good, i'll talk to ogra (once he appears again) because i'd be happy with him as MOTU; although i'd have a talk to him again
<sabdfl> arnaud?
<sabdfl> is our suid policy published anywhere?
<dholbach> it's just a note that "AaronLake is not ticked off" completely from the agenda
<mako> herve: also, nice wiki page :)
<tseng> i can confirm that he did several packages for python
<mako> herve: it's easy to get an idea of what you're involved in and have done by read it
<jbailey> Arnaud isn't here, but I and wasabi_ have worked with him.  (wasabi_ more than I)
<Kamion> sabdfl: "talk to mdz and see if he vomits"
<sabdfl> :-)
<herve> mako, Debian user and home developer for 5 years ;-)
<Kamion> Arnaud's done great work on kaffe in Debian
<sabdfl> :-// more like it
<Kamion> it's in a rather saner state now that it was this time last year or so
<wasabi_> hi
<dholbach> it's just, i want to talk to ogra an metalikop before
<mdz> sabdfl: our policy is that new setuid programs are met with extreme suspicion
<sabdfl> ok, i think the metalikop issue is more maintainership than membership, he seems fully committed to ubuntu
<mdz> sabdfl: is there a specific issue?
<dholbach> mdz: it was on the list
<mako> sabdfl: absolutely
<sabdfl> mdz: 
<sabdfl> (16:28:47) dholbach: another word on AaronLake (metalikop): i talked to him about MOTUness... it's just he "fell into miscredit" because of a package with a suid binary he proposed... his work on universepythontransitiontodo was really good, i'll talk to ogra (once he appears again) because i'd be happy with him as MOTU; although i'd have a talk to him again
<mdz> doesn't sound like a community council issue
<pitti> dholbach: which package?
<mdz> oh
<dholbach> mdz, pitti: a gnome applet. dunno the name, it's not in hoary
<pitti> dholbach: ok
<sabdfl> mdz: i just felt that before people's reputations are tarnished there should be a policy published which we could point to, rather than depending on being a member of the cabal that know's how to channel you :-)
<mdz> sabdfl: unfortunately it's a very touchy-feely sort of process which requires a nausea response to code which is not written defensively
<sabdfl> ok
<dholbach> i think the new MOTUNewPackagePolicy will ensure we don't get those type of packages in "by accident"
<mdz> if we codified it, it would be something like "programs that suck may never be setuid"
<sabdfl> for UDU i think we should get a doc plan together for coding standards, doc standards, packaging standards
<Mithrandir> however, I don't think we need to throw people into miscredit for making a single mistake; I think metalikop has learnt about suid stuff now.
<sabdfl> at UDU
<mdz> dholbach: I think lintian alerts on that, too, though it isn't perfect
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: agreed exactly
<dholbach> Mithrandir: yes
<smurfix> mdz: Given the Turing-completeness of the problem we can't do any better anyway. ;-)
<sabdfl>  /var/www is on my conscience...
<sabdfl> ok, next?
<Q-FUNK> ?
<mako> wait.. did we get approval for arnaud?
<sabdfl> quick question - if we have someone doing obviously excellent work, do we need them to meet up with the CC for membership confirmation?
<jbailey> sabdfl: Youw ere starting Arnaud. =)
<mako> sabdfl: no
<sabdfl> mako: i think it's good to have everyone drop in and say "hi"
<mako> sabdfl: process stuff says it's suggested and will help
<mdz> "meet the neighbors"
<mako> sabdfl: they need to get testimonials from other team members.. so they need to meet up with at least a number of people
<sabdfl> it gives me and other CC guys, and other people who watch the CC process, a chance to read their wiki pages and get in tune
<sabdfl> right
<sabdfl> this is a good argument for rotating TZ's per fabbione's suggestion
<mako> i'm not opposed to that.. we'll move the next one it seems
<sabdfl> mako: if we did that, would you be more comfortable with requiring folks to come to the CC meeting to be approved?
<mako> yes, absolutely
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> i was most concerrned with making people get up at 3am
<sabdfl> no TZ discrimination round here!
<fabbione> mako: there will always be somebody unhappy.
<mako> fabbione: yes, unless it rotates
<fabbione> let's make a constant rotation and 3 out of 4 times people will be ok
<mako> fabbione: and then everyone is unhappy sometimes but nobody is unhappy always :)
<sabdfl> ok
<fabbione> mako: let's talk about it later
<jbailey> 3am is at least doable.  Middle of the workday is less doable for most.
<mako> yes
<sabdfl> this is going to be fun, keeping track of it :-)
<fabbione> i have some ideas
<mako> so want to make a decision about arnaud?
<mako> should we suggest he come to the next meeting? 
<sabdfl> let's stick to the "please come once" idea
<mako> jbailey: what is your feeling?
<Kamion> arnaud++ as far as I'm concerned
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: ical feed for meeting calender :)
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: you're going to *love* launchpad soon :-)
<jbailey> mako: He's a DD now and has been sponsoring a ton of people, like Michael Koch and Jerry Haltom.
* mako is willing to go on the recommendations he's had from people i trust
<mako> yeah, i know him from debian
<sabdfl> let's ask him to make the next meeting, and confirm it then
<mako> so i'm comfortable with it
<mako> alright, sounds good
<mako> MartinEricRacine ?
<jbailey> I'm willing to say spin it to the next meeting for consistancy, though.
<Q-FUNK> that's me.
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: you're up
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: just give me an emacs interface and kerberos integration and I'll be happy. ;)
<mako> Q-FUNK: your page doesn't really describe what you've been doing for ubuntu.. are there a re few projects you've been actively involved in?
<mako> Q-FUNK: or are you still ramping up?
<sabdfl> i'm sure e-lisp has xml-rpc bindings...
<Q-FUNK> I'd mostly be maintaining the same packages I have in Debian (versions in Warty have security bugs), plus possibly adopting and packaging some more as I find time.
<jbailey> Mmm..  Kerberos.
* jbailey makes Homer noises.
<mako> Q-FUNK: which are those?
<mako> and don't say "the e-lisp kerbos and and xml-rpc bindings"
<Q-FUNK> mako: my blog (as seen on planet.debian) mentions some more things I did for Ubuntu, such as trying to get the local debian mirror to also mirror ubuntu.
<mako> well we should get your blog in ubuntu planet.. but that's another issue :)
<smurfix> mako: Mine too ;-)
* mako points a finger to jdub
<Q-FUNK> mako: cups-pdf had a number of RC bugs fixed by upstream, which I later uploaded to unstable.
<opi> mako: and mine! :P
<opi> mako: pointing is so rude :P
<opi> mako: I rate you: not a team player ;-)
<Q-FUNK> mako: I would need to be able to keep that in sync in ubuntu as well.
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: so, in summary,main membership focus will be maintainership?
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: have you done any MOTU bits?
<Q-FUNK> mako: then numlockx has seen several bugxies since I adopted it.
<mako> Q-FUNK: have you worked with anyone on the MOTU or other team in ubuntu yet that can vouche for you?
<Q-FUNK> sabdfl: for now, maintainership, yes.  however, my main focus is on business and publicity issues.
<mako> Q-FUNK: ooh, that's nice :)
<mako> Q-FUNK: we tend to like to put maintainership on people with testimonials from other poeple and who can point to a big body of work in ubuntu
<Q-FUNK> mako: some of the gnome guys, like seb128, have been in contact for some time already on several gnome issues.
<dholbach> sabdfl: he's in the channel and helped out with questions, but in the last days i was very busy, so i might have missed things he worked on
<mako> Q-FUNK: would you be opposed to revisiting this in two weeks?
<Q-FUNK> seb128: any comment on my current involvement in gnome testing and bug reporting?
<Kamion> yeah, I'd also like there to be a bit more meat on the wiki page
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: any top things you think we should be working on to meet your goals for the enterprise market?
<Kamion> of the Ubuntu-specific variety :-)
<seb128> not a lot to say, out of speaking about some issues (mainly on ppc) with the packages ...
<mako> Q-FUNK: you can build up the wiki page, do a few uploads, and maybe start some of the work on the business stuff?
<seb128> I've not reviewed any package or such stuff
<Q-FUNK> seb128: anything on the gnome 28 transition testing I did on ppc?
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: check out https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WinningTheDesktop
<mako> Q-FUNK: if you're opposed to looking at this next week, it will give you a chance to build up the page and i'm sure it will not be controversial :)
<mako> sorry, in two weeks
<sabdfl> seb128: has Q-FUNK been busy in bugzilla for you?
<seb128> ubuntu bugzilla ? no
<seb128> just pinging sometimes on the debian BTS
<Q-FUNK> sabdfl: I've been approached by a few Baltic startups wanting to make their custom Debian-based distros. I suggested Ubuntu instead.
<Q-FUNK> sabdfl: but my possibilities to promote Ubuntu are limitted as I'm currently unemployed.
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: don't want to put you on the spot, i like what you've written on your wiki page, and I think given another round of clarity there and active work on bugzilla or in the community will get you there
<Q-FUNK> sabdfl: I don't do bugzilla.  I despise having to create yet another acocunt on yet another bugzilla.
<sabdfl> malone?
<sabdfl> all-your-bugzillas-are-belong-to... ?
<mdz> we don't love Bugzilla either, but it's the tool that we have today, and we work with that
<smurfix> Q-FUNK: at the moment we don't really have a choice
<mako> mdz: speak for yourself! i love.. no wait. i don't
<seb128> mdz: if you don't like bugzilla you should try the sf bug tracker :p
<mdz> seb128: I have
<pitti> seb128: argh, this sucks :-/
* smurfix hits seb128
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> alright
<Q-FUNK> I would love it if all the bugzillas in the world had a single logon and unifed user database.  creating yet another account for every single OSS project thta uses bugzilla is a pain.
<sabdfl> APPROVED!
<mdz> I didn't say bugzilla was the _worst_ bug tracker :-)
<mako> Q-FUNK: in two weeks. you can talk to me in advance if you want
<Q-FUNK> but this bugzilla discussion is besides the point.
<seb128> mdz: :)
<mako> HiweedLeng
<Kamion> hiweed is not here; has anyone worked with him?
<Kamion> the wiki page is light on contributions to date
<mdz> Q-FUNK: indeed, but please don't turn your nose up at bugzilla if you're suggesting that you're going to participate in Ubuntu development :-)
<sabdfl> Q-FUNK: chat to mako in between, and perhaps there are ways we can make the work that you are doing more tangible and more visible to the CC and your colleagues. then we're all set
<mako> i think we need to talk with and work with Hiweed a bit more
<mako> he (s)he around?
<Q-FUNK> sabdfl: fair enough :)
<sabdfl> if not... MatthewWeaver?
<m_tthew> yes
<mdz> -> m_tthew 
<Kamion> having Hiweed work with the universe guys for a while on Chinese support, and with whoever's needed to improve support in main, would be good
<mdz> I can personally attest that m_tthew is spreading the LOVE
<mako> yeah
<mako> i think we need to talk to hiweed a bit more
<mako> his wiki page details a few areas of what appears to be confusion
<Kamion> on reading his wiki page, I am now trying to remember trading double entendres with m_tthew :-)
<mako> "I have read the Debian Social Contract and the DFSG (I agree to both)"
<Q-FUNK> mdz: maintaining being only a very tiny bit of what I intend on doing at Ubuntu, let's just say that bugzilla is not gona be my main tool. :)
<sabdfl> doubled parry-entendres 'ey? sounds canadian to me
<mdz> Q-FUNK: sure, but if you refuse to even create an account, that's a problem
<m_tthew> Kamion: we debugged a d-i / grub problem on a sounder CD way way back, talked about big hammers in tight places
<sabdfl> Kamion: he says nothing about fluids in there
<mako> "Once I had an idea that MattZimmerman called 'pretty reasonable'"
<Q-FUNK> mako: anyhow, fair enough.  in 2 weeks then.
<Kamion> sabdfl: ew
<dholbach> hehe
<mako> that might be better than me
<Kamion> m_tthew: ah :-)
* Q-FUNK heads for sauna
<mako> Q-FUNK: cool, thanks for showing up
<mako> Q-FUNK: we'll talk
<Kamion> wow, nostalgia attack
<mdz> mako: have your people call his people, we'll talk
<mako> so.. strong feelings about m_tthew ?
<mako> anyone, anyone
<opi> Q-FUNK: if you refusing to get new, I'll share with you ;)
* mdz hugs m_tthew
* fabbione thumbs up
* m_tthew blushes
* opi smiles
<sabdfl> m_tthew: are you actively working on any embedded distro work?
<mako> where jdub? this is love
<Q-FUNK> sabdfl: I think my profile on LinkedIn would give you a better idea of what I do with free/OSS.  very little coding or maintaining involved. :)
<m_tthew> sabdfl: outside of helping a former employer maintain a hacked up version of pebble? no.
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> mdz's recommendation's pretty strong, the wiki page still leaves me gagging for more detail though :-)
<sabdfl> Kamion: +1
<opi> m_tthew: are you going to help us with a little Ubuntu hackin'?
<mdz> m_tthew has personally burned and mailed Hoary live CDs to people to make sure that they try Ubuntu
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> ok.. 
<mako> that's enough
<opi> m_tthew: I'm talking with Abelli (.it LoCo leader)
<mako> for me
<sabdfl> Kamion: ?
<mako> m_tthew: that rocks dude
<m_tthew> opi: I really only write code under extreme duress, but I am happy to help nail down problems I discover in code.
<opi> m_tthew: about doing a embedded Ubuntu :)
<mako> m_tthew: that makes me want to give you a hug too
* m_tthew blushes, again
<mdz> and he had better come back soon looking to become a universe maintainer
<sabdfl> we asked Q-FUNK to come back with more concrete detail on bits done
<m_tthew> opi: the magic new live CD and associated tools seem to be moving in the right direction (easier custom distributions)
<mako> m_tthew: want to fill out your page andreappear next week?
<m_tthew> mako: I can do that, sure
<Mithrandir> m_tthew: could you please turn off highlighted ":"?
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> m_tthew: that's the uncontroversial thing to do. then the next uncontroversial thing will be to approve your application for membership
<m_tthew> Mithrandir : yeah, it shows that I don't understand the 'reformatted text'
<opi> m_tthew: yeah, new LCD design is very cool 
<opi> m_tthew: too bad I can't play with it at my laptop (low at disk space;()
* m_tthew nods to mako
<Kamion> advocacy's one of the contributions that qualifies for membership, so based on testimonials I'm happy
<sabdfl> m_tthew: if you have what it takes on the maintainership side to keep mdz happy, we can probably handle membership and maintainership in one go if it's at a time good for the TB guys
<Kamion> as long as he keeps it up :-)
* mako is as well
<mdz> documentation has not been an issue in the past
<mdz> certainly not given testimonials
<sabdfl> ok, so i think that's consensus
<mako> sabdfl: did you give the nod too?
<Kamion> yep
<mako> alright then
<mako> m_tthew: congrats
<m_tthew> thanks
<herve> m_tthew, I struggled too with reST, I'm an old stx user ;-)
<sabdfl> m_tthew: if you can document actual work done already on your wiki, and flesh out those embedded and coding ideas, then at the next CC meeting we can go ahead with membership and probably maintainership too
<mdz> ReST is the awfulest wiki markup ever
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> sorry
<sabdfl> was typing
<mako> alright.. moving on
<mako> so we can all get back to work
<m_tthew> sabdfl: consider it done
<Kamion> erm, no need to go ahead with membership now?
<mako> anybody here with updates on the website
<mdz> mako: dude, this is work
<Kamion> since that's done :-)
<sabdfl> m_tthew: thanks, appreciate your patience
<sabdfl> there are no CC appointments coming up between now and then anyhow ;-)
<mako> mdz: can't be work. i'm having too much fun
<mako> mdz: there's this little thing ofa  release tomorrow. you might have heard about it :)
<sabdfl> so... website?
<mako> hmm..
<sabdfl> new look is super, can't wait to see it executed
<sabdfl> decision is taken
<mako> the masses want some information
<sabdfl> we are merging three of the best into one look
<Kamion> we have the website competition; is it Henrik who's responsible for executing the results?
<sabdfl> the look itself is done, we are now getting it turned into a plone skin
<mako> can we make some sort of update, maybe on -devel?
<sabdfl> tomorrow night we'll be discussing the state of the website, and general options there
<smurfix> sabdfl: Any preview mock-up people can look at?
<mako> i've been getting a decent amount of mail about i
<sabdfl> one suggestion is to go back to plone + moin, can we get feedback on that idea here?
* opi going for 5 minutes
<sabdfl> they would share an authentication mechanism (login once)
<Riddell> when kubuntu.org gets done it would be good to have it with the new look
* smurfix wants a wiki which locks pages
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: the current wiki is horrible, so I would be very happy with that.
<mako> i don't mind zwiki
<smurfix> Whether that's moin or *anything* is secondary to me
<Kamion> I would be so happy going back to moin
<sabdfl> we would have to use Google for searching, to get integrated search of both
<mako> and the change was more painful than using either
<m_tthew> google is pretty good at search
<mako> the migration was rough last time
<dholbach> ok... i have to leave now... see you all later
<sabdfl> mako: i wonder if we'll be able to get someone to convert ReST to moin automatically?
<Mithrandir> mako: it grabs Alt-D which really, really sucks.  Yes, it's not a zwiki thing per se, but it means I try to avoid using the wiki if possible.
<mako> i still keep finding attachements that are broken that i have to reupload
<sabdfl> cheers daniel
<dholbach> bye mark *wave*
<sabdfl> what does alt-d do ?
<mako> sabdfl: i think it could be done semi-automaticaly but it would be a lot of work
<smurfix> sabdfl: I can probably whip up something to do that conversion
<Mithrandir> go to the address bar
<Mithrandir> which I tend to do a lot
<sabdfl> ctrl-l?
<mdz> alt-d makes you wish for [D] eath
<mdz> a common feeling with zwiki
<sabdfl> down, not across
<Mithrandir> C-l could work, but C-l used to pop up a window in other browsers, si it's not in my fingers.
<sabdfl> so... general feeling is +1 on moin+plone
<mako> dude.. use mozex to edit pages
<Mithrandir> zwiki is also slooooooow
<mako> sabdfl: i'd prefer to stay
<mako> sabdfl: but i'm happy to be outvoted
<mako> sabdfl: my concern is more with the transition
<sabdfl> mako: let's see if smurfix can whip something up
<sabdfl> this would be post-hoary
<mako> sabdfl: than to using moin.. i think it's a fine wiki but things did/will break and it we're still picking up pieces from the last one
<sabdfl> any more questions on the website?
<sabdfl> mako: yes i agree
<sabdfl> renaming pages... sucks in moin
<sabdfl> attachments
<sabdfl> etc
<sabdfl> but it also has a fast lean Right Way feel in other areas
<mako> sabdfl: well the major problem is the attachments didn't get moved over
<sabdfl> we can also find out about bounties for moin improvement
<sabdfl> plone is... hard in that regard
<mako> sabdfl: yeah, i think ultimately with 20/20 foresite, i would never have switched
<sabdfl> me too
<sabdfl> ok, next
<mako> but not that we're here. i really loathe the idea of doing it all again
<sabdfl> Riddell: you're up
<mako> kubuntu
<sabdfl> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/KubuntuPublicity
<Riddell> kubuntu logo was first
<sabdfl> anybody else LOVE the three dragons in circle-of-friends pose?
<Riddell> do we need a separate one (I think so) and if so which, ideas on the page sabdfl sent
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: they need a bit more work, imho, but the idea is nice.
<Kamion> the dragons image is cute
<Mithrandir> possibly color them differently?
<sabdfl> i don't think the brown and blue merge well, am happy for kubuntu to be blue
<sabdfl> and green
<sabdfl> Riddell: have you me norm?
* pitti really likes the three green dragons
<sabdfl> met
<amu> brown one looks nice, but need some extra work
<Kamion> the blue one is a bit BRIGHT
* Simira loves dragons
<sabdfl> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/norm.jpg
<Kamion> it's like konqi descending out of angelic light or something, kinda blinding
<sabdfl> my mascot
<Riddell> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-art/
<sabdfl> he's on canonical one
<mako> i really like the dragon
<Mithrandir> Riddell: could you make an index?
<mako> (s)
* mako nods to sabdfl 
<Riddell> http://www.kulma.org/linux/kde/kone.php?categ=kubuntu
<sabdfl> i think it's more important to preserve the clean desktop philosophy than the brown
<Riddell> konqi bits
<sivang> hey all
* sivang is back
<opi> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-art/kubuntu-basse.png -- this is cute!
* amu suggests put the brown one into the first Kubuntu packages as default background and listen carefull what other say about it
<Riddell> http://jriddell.org/foo/
<smurfix> Riddell: *cool*, especially the *together* images
<Riddell> whatever else I have
<Riddell> anyway, we all know konqi is cool, it's the logo I'm worried about
<sabdfl> i like the one on the right of http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-art/kubuntu-basse.png
<opi> Riddell: basse rocks :)
<sabdfl> clean, ubuntu and kde links
<Kamion> I like the blue/green together image
<opi> I'm with sabdfl on this
<sivang> Riddell: yeah, it's cool
<Kamion> http://www.kulma.org/linux/kde/kone.php?categ=kubuntu&kuva=konqi_together_green.jpg
<mako> i like the one on the right too
<sabdfl> only question is whether those colours can work together, if not, i'd favour the KDE colours over the Ubuntu ones, since we want the Kdesktop to look and feel Just Right
<Riddell> sabdfl: with those colours?
<Riddell> maybe take the blues from the ubuntu palette and use them
<Mithrandir> it would be interesting to see that
<sabdfl> together image? which is that?
<opi> sabdfl: Kamion link
<opi> http://www.kulma.org/linux/kde/kone.php?categ=kubuntu&kuva=konqi_together_green.jpg
<sabdfl> Riddell: yes, maybe use the three-arcs, with the gear motif, in K colours, with k-bling
<Mithrandir> Riddell: what would a plain ubuntu logo with kubuntu as the text and blue/green-ish colours look like?
<sabdfl> sweet mother of... puff.
<sabdfl> it's lovely :-)
<sabdfl> i think the K artist community has a strong sense of identity, and will get this right if we give them the space to play
<Mithrandir> Riddell: the kubuntu logo with the cogwheels look a bit crowded.
<Riddell> sabdfl: by gear mofit you mean the one on the right here?  http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-art/kubuntu-basse.png
<Riddell> Mithrandir: which one?  mine of basse's?
<sabdfl> Riddell: yes
<sabdfl> but i'm very open to other ideas
<Mithrandir> Riddell: http://jriddell.org/foo/kubuntu.png , for instance.
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: agreed, that one has too many conflicting colours
<Riddell> Mithrandir: yeah, people seem to prefer basse's over mine
<mako> you guys have images at like 10 different sites
<mdz> I suggest that we first get Kubuntu to compile, then install, then we worry about the logo :-)
<sabdfl> that's because we've been crap about getting people a common place to upload - sorry
<sabdfl> we will have that fixed by the next time we meet, sooner for devs
<mako> well, you can upload into the wiki
<mako> at least until we tear it out and replace it with a new wiki ;)
<sabdfl> so Riddell - i love the ideas here, and the fact that K community artists are playing with it, let's see what comes out
<Mithrandir> Riddell: still a bit crowded.  If the wheels were retracted a bit, Basse's could work.
<opi> but I have to say: basses, esp. right one is my favorite
<sabdfl> really like the idea of having Konqi tease some of the ubuntu-calendar artwork, and think it could be done very well
<Mithrandir> and blue-ish colours
<Mithrandir> konqi-pr0n?
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: gives a whole new twist to "spank that lizard", doesn't it
<sabdfl> moving right along
<Riddell> ok, will talk with basse about playing with his logo design
<Riddell> can we get kubuntu.org to not point at 123-reg?
<sabdfl> LocoTeamLeader process
<sabdfl> Riddell: yes
<Riddell> sabdfl: should I e-mail Louise?
<sabdfl> Riddell: we might be able to theme it so that wiki.kubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com have the same content with different colour themes.
<mako> oh dude.. are we going to have suggestively posed konqi?!
<sivang> sabdfl: are we going to have seperate kubuntu disks for distribution?
<sabdfl> Riddell: elmo
<Riddell> sabdfl: right
<sabdfl> mako: there was nothing suggestive in the poses! it was the lack of clothes, apparently
<Mithrandir> mako: Daring Dragon, the first Kubuntu release.
<sabdfl> sivang: we haven't planned or budgeted for that
* m_tthew laughs
<opi> ;D
<sivang> sabdfl: ok
<Kamion> Riddell: Lu's not working for Canonical any more, she went off to other things
<sivang> (/me was curious)
<sabdfl> we can probably do a special run, and ship them to kde guys, and lug's
<sabdfl> ok, LocoTeamLeader process
<sabdfl> smurfix?
<smurfix> Right
<mako> jane and i have discussed
<mako> we didn't come to any firm conclusions
<smurfix> The recent apparent resignation of the Italian team leader has highlighted the fact that we should probably make the process a bit stricter
<smurfix> My ideas are
<mako> but thought it might be possible for a smaller one
<smurfix> - require membership
<smurfix> - require a LocalTeam page that has enough content
<smurfix>   ( >2 persons listed who actually do something ;-)
<Kamion> as I said in e-mail, I'd prefer it if we started locos up without leaders, and let the obvious leader emerge; it would be much easier to see who's doing real work that way
<opi> Kamion: a natural leader
<fabbione> Kamion: +1
<mako> smurfix, Kamion: both your suggestions sounds reasonable
<opi> same goes for exchanging leaders
<Kamion> both our suggestions are compatible, too :-)
<mako> leadership in locoteams and a revised position on them is something i want to address in the next cc meeting
<smurfix> Kamion: Yeah, as people fill up that team page something like a leader should emerge
<mako> in the next days, there will be a meeting with members of the italian team
<sabdfl> it might happen that the cc needs to suggest a leader, for clarity, if there's indecision inside the community concerned
<mako> to talk about choosing leadership for their team and processes to avoid problems in the future
<opi> if someone is more active are willing, he should replace currect leader (with team approve) without the fuss
<sabdfl> mako: would be a good time to flesh these ideas out in practice
<mako> if we have a fixed time, i'll announce it with the notes from this meeting in the next day or two
<mako> sabdfl: exactly
<mako> it would be good if people can come.. it will be post-preview release of course
<sabdfl> opi: in general, we will act to minimise the fuss
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> so we should all have a chance to catch our breath
<mako> and then we can come up with a more solid proposal we can present to the group.. maybe something for the community/processes/ section on the website
<mako> next meeting
<sabdfl> smurfix: so perhaps the answer is to try not to nominate a specific leader, but get folks to work together as a team, as Kamion suggested, till we really need a leader
<sabdfl> then get the community to discuss it and select someone
<smurfix> Self-nomination works -- except when it doesn't  :-/
<sabdfl> that's when we can gently nudge something in the right direction
<sabdfl> anything else on this?
<opi> smurfix: same goes for democracy ;)
<sabdfl> THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY
<sabdfl> :-)
<opi> maybe a review of Leader work?
<smurfix> sabdfl: Not at the moment; mroe at the next CC meeting after we've talked more with everybody concerned
<opi> I know I'm shooting in my own foot here ;-)
<Kamion> sabdfl: yeah, it's just the "leader of new team appears and asks for approval" thing that's difficult to deal with
<sabdfl> Kamion: i think we need to run with it
<Kamion> if a community already has enough people for there to be indecision, then the job is already easier than that :-)
<smurfix> opi: If you can suggest a process for that which would work in your team, by all means submit it to others
<sabdfl> deal with the stresses when they appear, as per .it
<Kamion> sabdfl: it only works that way because we've *asked* for team leaders - I honestly don't think we need to for loco teams, at the start
<opi> smurfix: I'll think on that
<opi> smurfix: and ask others
<smurfix> opi: we can put up a best-practices page or something like that
<Kamion> hm, and now I actually read more of the scrollback :-)
<sabdfl> phew, i thought opi was suggesting review of the sabdfl
<Kamion> ok, you said that
<opi> sabdfl: ;-)
<opi> sabdfl: are you afraid? :)
<sabdfl> ok, any other business?
<sabdfl> opi: i have my flaws, you know
<opi> who dosen't 
<sabdfl> AOB? I have one item
<smurfix> sabdfl: nothimg else from me
<mako> sabdfl: go ahead
<sivang> sabdfl: AOB ?
<opi> any other buissnes
<sivang> eh ;-)
<sabdfl> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DraftHoaryReleaseAnnouncement
<sabdfl> comments and brickbats?
<sabdfl> i thought we could have a similar announcement of Kubuntu, from Riddell and haggai
<sabdfl> questions
<mdz> sabdfl: on a more immediate note, do you want the preview announcement to go along the same lines?
<mako> sabdfl: i'm going to do a bit of work on it
<sabdfl>  - do we want something formal like this for preview, or informal for preview?
<mdz> we should definitely do something formal for preview
<sabdfl> mdz: :-)
<opi> you can include me for spreading the news on Polish Linux portals
<mako> oh.. this is the next month announcement
<sabdfl>  - can we get a good plan in place to cover the local media in the countries we have community members?
<mako> not the "tomorrow" announcement
<sabdfl> mako: yes
<Kamion> I like it
<mako> sabdfl: yes. lets do it
<sabdfl> mdz: i'd like to avoid having two virtually identical announcements, preview and release
<opi> will Kubuntu have more about KDE and point out Ubuntu in short
<mako> sabdfl: i was planning on writing one for the preview anyway
<sabdfl> otherwise we might not get /.'d  ENONEWINFO
<Riddell> opi: yes
<mako> sabdfl: i can do it mostly blind first
<opi> and in reverse?
<mdz> preview will get a big media splash, though, and should have a proper announcement
<sabdfl> opi: yes
<opi> superb
<mako> mdz: we can do a different and shorter announcement i think
<sivang> sabdfl: so use this announcment for the preview and the relsase?
<Kamion> Our next release, the Hoary Hedgehog, is due
<Kamion> in six months time.
<mdz> maoksure
<Kamion> might want to correct that :-)
<sabdfl> :-)
<mdz> hehe
<mdz> ECUTANDPASTE
<mako> Kamion: we're a bunch of slackers
<sabdfl> guys, it has been nearly one year! Kamion, mdz, remember easter?
<opi> Whad? Is that a Sarge Headhog? :P
<silbs> I thought we were doing ubuntu.com not ubuntulinux.org?
<Kamion> ayup
<fabbione> YEAH!
<fabbione> sabdfl: the waitress!
<fabbione> who can forget her?
<sabdfl> shhhh
<fabbione> :P
<mako> silbs: we've got a month :)
<mdz> that was April 9th and 10th
<sabdfl> wow
<mako> in any case.. i'm going to write an announcement today after i finish shipit stuff for tomorrow
<sabdfl> ok, so plan for preview announcement?
<opi> lets put it on the April the 1st
<mdz> Hoary releases April 6th
<Kamion> in fact it's now a bit over a year since you phoned me to talk about the project
<sabdfl> opi: we have a plan for april 1st
<silbs> mako: also you might want to add sometihng about the live CDs. 
<Kamion> 29/02/2004      Phone call from Mark Shuttleworth, 10pm
<opi> sabdfl: Wubuntu? Win32 Ubuntu? 
<sabdfl> Kamion: yes, we were keeping sane hours back then
* fabbione still rememeber reading sabdfl's first email and almost trashed it as spam
<sabdfl> opi: circle-of-aaarrrgghh-my-eyes
<mdz> heh
<sabdfl> fabbione: elmo did, though he won't admit it
<mdz> 2005-03-08 Phone call from Mark Shuttleworth, 4:30am
<sabdfl> ok, 'nuff history
<mako> unless there are problems, i'll drop the link to the topic of #ubuntu-devel when i'm done with the draft preview announcement
<sabdfl> :-)
<fabbione> eheheh
<mako> will be done before any of you wake up tomorrow for redrafting etc
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> i know mark will have go nuts with :)
<Kamion> wake up?
<Riddell> mako: should we have a kubuntu draft preview announcement?
<Kamion> waking up implies sleeping
<Kamion> and, as we all know, SLEEPING IS FOR SLACKERS
<sabdfl> mdz: would you prefer the preview announcement to be more technical? cover more detail of new approaches and features?
<Riddell> mako: or a paragraph in the ubuntu one
<sabdfl> listing de-rooted apps etc?
<mako> it will be done before the time when one would normally wake up if one were sleeping
<mdz> sabdfl: I think it should link to the wiki for details, and just give an overview
<smurfix> mako: define "normal"
<sivang> sabdfl: what would you like over coutnries you have community memebers in?
<mdz> sabdfl: mako and I talked about a similar outline to the release notes
<mako> i want it to be a bit shorter than the full announcement
<sabdfl> mdz: ok, cool
<sivang> sabdfl: (wrt announcements)
<mako> and slightly more geared toward people who already know about and maybe even use ubuntu
<sabdfl> sivang: could you draft a template, perhaps, for a country
<sabdfl>  - space for media contacts (name, email and telephone)
<mdz> mako: oh, let's not forget proper upgrade instructions
<sabdfl>  - contacts for lug groups (same)
<sivang> sabdfl: but that implies using the local language ?
<mako> mdz: yes
<mdz> a lot of folks will summon the courage to upgrade when preview comes
<sabdfl>  - contacts for translators in the LoCo team who can translate the announcements :-)
<opi> btw: when I raport Hoary/Kubuntu bugs, I'm using Ubuntu-product in Bugzilla
<opi> will Kubuntu get own product-item, or should I just ignore it :)
<opi> oups ;)
<sivang> sabdfl: hehe 
<sabdfl> opi: just use relevant source package name
* sabdfl wonders how long it is before Gubuntu happens...
<Riddell> opi: use ubuntu, we'll hopefully have an account to assign it to soon
<opi> sabdfl: that's what I'm doing now, it was just a minor note, since we're off the official list
<sivang> sabdfl: I don't see why my draft would be usable by other non hebrew speaking loco teams :) but I guess I am missing the point here.
<mako> sabdfl: you mean gnubuntu?
<opi> Hurbuntu?
<mako> sabdfl: rms and i exhcnage mails about it every couple weeks :)
<sabdfl> mako: no - "the gnome face of ubuntu"
<Riddell> sounds like gnoppix
<sabdfl> sivang: the idea is a template for all the pieces of info that would make it easy for us to get the announcement to the right people locally
<opi> I'm all for u(micro)buntu
<sabdfl> the announcements would be translated, but the template is to coordinate across many countries
<sabdfl> so if you draft a template, then fill it out for Israel, other LoCo teams can see what we need
<opi> sabdfl: use smurfix, he will post it on a loco-leader mailing lists
<sabdfl> for example, in south africa there are three main magazines that cover linux
<opi> sabdfl: and you're done :-)
<sabdfl> it would be nice to have those listed on an SA loco page
<mako> opi: buntu
<mdz> mako: in the upgrade instructions, we should include "now would be a good time to start using a mirror in your country"
<mdz> mako: CC.archive.ubuntu.com
<opi> mako: UTF-8 must die ;)
<opi> mako: at least at my Slackware laptop
<mako> man.. i like the idea of buntu
<mako> opi: you're in the wrong channel and talking to the wrong person to be saying things like that
<opi> mako: should I leave?
<doko> mako: for embedded?
<mako> opi: i'll fogive you ;)
<mako> doko: yes
<sabdfl> sivang: does that make sense?
<m_tthew> opi: take it back -- utf-8 makes for a better, brighter world :)
<mdz> sabdfl: do any of those magazines cover both Linux *and* your hair?
<opi> mako: I'll start a paper work to make you a god :-)
<sivang> sabdfl: yes, it does :) so for instance we can have contact section like:
<sabdfl> back off, skull boy
<opi> m_tthew: yeah, I know -- but I don't have time to hack my Slackware for that ;p
<sivang> sabdfl: 1) Community people.
<sivang> 2)
<sivang> 2) COmmunity websites and portal
<mdz> my hair is just as newsworthy as the next head-worth
<sivang> 3) Linux printed magazines contacts
<m_tthew> opi: you blame the moon for the clouds :)
<sabdfl> mdz: the news in brief today...
<sivang> 4) TV Media related (We only one, but we can try and interest them in this maybe)
<opi> m_tthew: <song>..and I feel fine..</song> ;-)
<opi> oh, oh!
<sivang> sabdfl: is that whay you mean for example?
<opi> we're going to have a big Linux fair soon
<opi> I'd like to promote Ubuntu a little
<mdz> when we reach the 2-hour mark, do we go into sudden-death overtime?
<opi> any chance on getting bigger (~150) Hoary CD?
<sabdfl> sivang: i think we may get quite a bit of interest from the bigger media if we can combine the global thing (global team, world's best developers, geek-boy cosmonaut with bad hair) with the local thing (these guys in your home town know all about it)
<mdz> opi: I'm afraid all the CDs are the same size
<sabdfl> bigger media per country
<opi> I'm going to do some posters, too, so would anyone like/have to approve it
<fabbione> opi: do you prefer hoary on LP?
<opi> mdz: pity ;-)
<Kamion> opi: we already have a lot of very hard to diagnose installer bugs open, which appear to be media problems
<mdz> opi: but you can have as many as you like :-)
<sabdfl> mdz: good point
<opi> fabbione: this is the old school sound of Linux ;)
<opi> mdz: thanks :))
<Kamion> opi: these make me pretty wary of making it harder to burn CDs
<fabbione> Kamion
<Kamion> opi: oh, you were not asking for bigger CDs
<Kamion> opi: you were asking for more CDs, sorry :-)
<fabbione> Kamion: let's put hoary on old school zx81 tapes ;)
* Kamion unjerks his knee
<sabdfl> so guys, between preview and release it is ALL about this page: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/report.cgi?x_axis_field=bug_status&y_axis_field=assigned_to&z_axis_field=&query_format=report-table&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&resolution=DUPLICATE&
<sabdfl> man, and THAT is why i dislike bugzilla
<Alessio> about Linux Magazine: some of our community members write on some famous local magazines..
<mdz> the rules of Community Council sudden-death overtime are that the next mention of Slackware results in the immediate end of the meeting, with the speaker sentenced to converting 5 new users to Ubuntu
<opi> btw: if there was a Ubuntu&Debain related Conf, would anyone of you'd like to join?
<opi> sabdfl: URI from hell!
<mako> so are we done with the discussion of tomorrow announcement (decision: i write a draft not directly based on the full release announcement and we all work on it)?
<fabbione> ETOOLONG
<mdz> mako: yes please
<mako> alright
<sabdfl> mako: thanks!
<sabdfl> are we done?
<mako> any other business?
<mako> i think so
<opi> omg, fabbione rised exception :)
<mako> going once...
<mako> going twice...
<sabdfl> thank you and good night!
<sabdfl> cheers everyone
<mako> cheers!
<m_tthew> thanks, everybody
<fabbione> cya people
<mako> i'll write this up after the release
<mako> proboably tomorrow
<opi> ok, it's almost time for a soccer :)
<mako> thanks everyone!
<fabbione> mako: should we take a look at that rotation time for the meetings
<mdz> back to the freedom mines
<mako> fabbione: sure. what was your suggestion?
<opi> bye
<sivang> sabdfl : ok, this makes sense. I think we should also include int the announcment something which lists in details the all new features and thins "you can do out of the box" in ubuntu. I think this is lacking bits from our publications and announcments
<fabbione> mako: very simple. a weekly rotation of the time
<fabbione> mako: meeting[1]  00:00 UTC
<fabbione> meeting[2]  = meeting[1]  + 6 hours
<fabbione> and so on
<fabbione> as simple as this
<fabbione> we divide a day in 4 slots
<fabbione> basically everybody in a monthly rotation gets:
<fabbione> 2 meeting during normal hours
<fabbione> 1 meeting early in the morning (not too bad)
<fabbione> 1 meeting in which you need to stay up late at night
<fabbione> in this way we never hit too badly one TZ
<fabbione> and we suffer in rotation for the meeting late at night
<fabbione> of course we can tune it a bit
<fabbione> but that's the simplest i can think of to cover everybody
<fabbione> of course this assume you have a "normal" working life
* mako shrugs
<fabbione> waking up at 7am
<fabbione> and going to sleep around 10pm
<mako> um.. ok.. i'm normal shifted 2-3 hours it seems
<fabbione> i am just guessing mako
<fabbione> 7am - 10pm is here in dk
<fabbione> but i mean.. you get the idea
<pitti> mako, mdz: btw, do you want to get the announcements translated?
<mako> pitti: full for the major release definitely
<mako> pitti: for the preview. it's a nice to have although i'm not sure there will be time
<pitti> mako: okay, just ping me if you need a .de version :-)
<fabbione> mako: and i think the same has to apply to all official meetings.. CC, TB and so on
<fabbione> mako: we never have aussies in here at this time
<mako> fabbione: so want to have the next one at UTC22
<mako> ?
<mako> lets try this out for one cycle
<fabbione> this was at 16:00.. so + 6 = 22.. yes
<mako> alright.. sounds good
<fabbione> we need to test at least 2 cycles
<fabbione> 8 weeks
<fabbione> just to let people get used to the new times
<smurfix> Tb meeting too, I presume
<fabbione> smurfix: yes.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mako] : Tuesday 22 March 2005 22:00 UTC -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tuesday 15 March 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || Thursday 31 March 2005 17:30 UTC http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
<mako> fabbione: cool
<fabbione> mako: great!
<fabbione> mako: perhaps we want to send it to news? or devel?
<fabbione> just to inform people that might not have considered joining the meetings?
<fabbione> mainly due to weird hours in their TZ?
<mako> fabbione: i will announce it when i sent the summary of this meeting to news
<mako> probably tomorrow
<fabbione> cool
<mako> after the release :)
<fabbione> i am off to help my *wife* cooking some dinner :-)
<fabbione> the preview ;)
<Riddell> mako: does kubuntu get a mention in your preview announcement?
<mako> Riddell: do you think it should or should it get a seperate announcement
<mako> Riddell: what are you guys releaseing tomorrow/today?
<Riddell> mako: we're releasing the first distro with 3.4 final in it, but it's still untidied 
<Riddell> and since KDE 3.4 hasn't been released yet I don't know if we can promote that
<Q-FUNK> Riddell: the cas eis similar to gnome 2.10, for that matter.
<Riddell> Q-FUNK: good point  "3.4 final preview"
<Q-FUNK> Riddell: and yet Hoary is already advertised as being gnome 2.10 -based already, if I'm not mistaken?
<mako> Riddell:  there is no reason we can't announce it when it a little more tidied betwen now and the full release
<mako> Riddell: and you guys might have more of the spotlight to yourself
<mako> i mean, it's really up to to you.. and mdz 
<Q-FUNK> :)
<Riddell> mako: yes, would be up for that
<Riddell> like when we have a website and things
<mako> Riddell: i think it's worth waiting then :)
<mako> lets not be premature :)
<Q-FUNK> in the words of the famous Ubuntu Kenobi: mdz be with you, always.
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-03-20
<Simira> are there going to be any representatives for Ubuntu on "The Gathering" in Norway in Easter?
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-03-13
<Spec[1] > does anyone have meeting logs for today's meeting?
<bstc_ostl> Spec[1] :I have
<Spec> bstc_ostl: any chance you can e-mail them to me at dragoncow@gmail.com ? :)
<MarioMeyer> Spec, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/CC_2006-03-07
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 10 ar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14  Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 10 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14  Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu
<ajmitch> another MOTU meeting for me to miss
* ajmitch just can't be online then
<BlueFish> hey all
<BlueFish> I have a slight problem
<BlueFish> I'm dual booting with windows XP and Ubuntu breezy
<BlueFish> now this might be a WinXP problem, but I get errors when I plays sound
<Seveas> BlueFish, this is not the support channel...
<BlueFish> oh sorry
<BlueFish> I'll come back with something more relevent.
<flint> greetings, it is early and cold in Vermont...
<JaneW> hi everyone
<JaneW> who is here
<JaneW> ?
* ogra hides
<flint> JaneW, flint is flint... good morning, my girl child is vacationing from school, life is hell
* jelkner is Jeffrey Elkner
<JaneW> ogra: get*back*here!
<ogra> heh
<ogra> but i dont have much to tell today ...
<JaneW> highvoltage: you in the house?
<JaneW> pips1_away had to leave
<jelkner> JaneW: don't let him lie to you, she dragging him to concerts and stuff... life's a *blast*!
* highvoltage is here!!!!
<JaneW> is mhz, spacey or jsgotangco here?
<JaneW> and no kjcole
<JaneW> ok let start anyway
<jelkner> kjcole was at FOSE
<jelkner> he may not make it here today
<JaneW> ogra: please start, can you do a quick 2 week summary, since I was away last week?
<flint> I did see George Clinton last night (note not the ex-president:^)
<ogra> hum ...
<ogra> i need to dig up last week then ....
<flint> JaneW, last week we ended the meeting early remember Ollie?
<JaneW> ogra: ok just this week then if it's a problem
* JaneW does not believe it!
<highvoltage> flint: uhm, your previous president was Bill Clinton, not George Clinton ;)
<ogra> this week i was mainly busy with fixing gnome-screensaver bugs ... there is not much to tell for it ... last week i built the first edubuntu-docs package with highvoltages docs and cared for the CD
<JaneW> highvoltage 's docs? what the tuXlabs troubleshoot guide?
<flint> highvoltage, jonathan it should have been George Clinton.  P-Funk would have been his cabinet.
<highvoltage> flint: :)
<ogra> over the weekend i did the last ltsp merges fro other peoples branches, this was the last merge, now ltsp wont change much apart from bugsfixing
<highvoltage> JaneW: it's pre-release updates to our howto, which included some Edubuntu stuff
<flint> ogra, you got a flight to test?
<highvoltage> JaneW: ogra cleaned it up a bit and packaged it, in order to achieve first draft status in time, iirc
<JaneW> nice, thanks
<ogra> flint, flights are announced on the mailing list 
<ogra> i doubt there will be one within this week ...
<flint> ogra, just wanted you to know I am ready.
<flint> :^)
<ogra> note that producing a flight takes two full workdays for me ...
* highvoltage apt-gets edubuntu-docs
<ogra> i cant bear to loose two days of a week currently
<ogra> highvoltage, it has a bug, i'll fix it today 
<JaneW> ogra: when do we expect the next flight? Next week possibly?
<ogra> but feel free to send me changes
<highvoltage> ogra: where can i get the ubuntu docs on my system?
<flint> excellent work you two.  my only question is does the apt-get alter the default page of the browser to show the docs?
<JaneW> how is our testing and bug fixing going this cycle?
<ogra> JaneW, likely ... i dont know what Kamion does, i guess he wants espresso in shape before the next flight
<flint> ..to reveal the docs...
<JaneW> yes espresso is his main priority, infinity may do the next flight
<ogra> highvoltage, /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ i think
<highvoltage> flint: i would suggest that the main page link to the docs
<highvoltage> ogra: ok thanks, i looked in /edubuntu-docs/
<ogra> flint, it will 
<flint> highvoltage, bingo.  I know how to do this...
<ogra> highvoltage, you asked for ubuntu-docs :)
<flint> ogra, ...and so do you... thanks.
<highvoltage> ogra: oops! ogra, I can't find the edubuntu docs :/
<ogra> apart from that i'm currently fiddling with the artwork package
* highvoltage looks inside package :)
<ogra> there must be 2 html pages 
<ogra> but they have a bug, the patch is wrong ... i havent looked into it yet 
<ogra> *path
<ogra> if you cant find them, just get the source packlage 
<highvoltage> ogra: i got it, i think i was to hasty in getting there
<ogra> apt-get source edubuntu-docs
<spacey> hi ;o
<JaneW> ogra: how is the roadmap to the release looking? Do you want to publish something on the wiki?
<JaneW> hi spacey 
<highvoltage> oosh. /me finds some old typos.
<ogra> not yet ... i'm to busy with ubuntu stuff ...
<highvoltage> ogra: can I just make changes to that html file, and send it back to you?
<ogra> the screensaver still needs a lot of love 
<ogra> yup
<ogra> thats why i picked html ...
<highvoltage> ok excellent.
<flint> ogra, I am really sorry I missed mdz's performance in London - not! :^)
<ogra> we can convert it later into something sane
<ogra> (and if we miss that we still have html :) )
<highvoltage> yep :) (i'm completely fine with html)
<ogra> oh, i'm working on a edubuntu menu logo, many people were intrested in that 
<highvoltage> ogra: about the testing, do you feel that we need more testing, and can you elaborate on where we need more testing?
<JaneW> so where does that leave us ito the cook book?
<ogra> highvoltage, all the time ...
<flint> highvoltage, I standby ready to test.
<JaneW> ogra: yay thanks - re logo, that will help
<ogra> highvoltage, major area is ltap and indeed the edu stuff that distinguishes use from ubuntu 
<highvoltage> ogra: i've been testing it quite intensely for the last week or so, and I can't find new things that's wrong with it anymore
<flint> ogra, ltap == ltsp?
<ogra> JaneW, it doesnt look much different ... i even doubt people recognize the difference at this size ...
<highvoltage> cross bewteen ldap and ltsp?"
<ogra> flint, yes
<flint> ogra, so inventing new protocols again eh? :^)
<ogra> highvoltage, the fix for the ssh-key creation sould be in the package this week ... so there will be testinstalls needed
<JaneW> ogra: I think ppl notice it's not right, but may not notice when it is...
<ogra> JaneW, yep
<jelkner> ogra: what does ltap stand for?
<ogra> for a typo
<flint> jelkner, it was a typo!!
<jelkner> sorry ;-)
<ogra> s is aside a on my keyboard ... :)
<highvoltage> JaneW: on the cookbook question, i think that dapper won't include the entire cookbook, just the software and technical module updates from tuxlab howto 2.0
<JaneW> ok, but does that mean all the other cook book effort was in vain, or will that still be used?
<highvoltage> ogra: can you confirm that i'm correct there?
<highvoltage> JaneW: it will still be used
<jelkner> JaneW: have you seen the wiki?
<ogra> highvoltage, yes
<JaneW> ok, good
* JaneW is glad
<highvoltage> JaneW: the new modules will just be swallowed by the work already done
<JaneW> jelkner: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook ?
<ogra> JaneW, its just not ready enough yet ...
<jelkner> JaneW: and it won't be by release
<JaneW> ogra: ok, so we can publish it on the wiki then etc
<jelkner> the cookbook is shaping up to be a community document
<ogra> but we wont ship without docs, thats why we coose the current path 
<highvoltage> JaneW: but we will have the basic documentation covered
<jelkner> it will evolve as users submit "recipes" on how they use Edubuntu
<JaneW> jelkner: ok, but let's not lose momentum and let it die out. It needs to be finished and used
* ogra still needs to put a day into the ltsp specifics ...
<JaneW> ok
<highvoltage> which covers installation, troubleshooting, basic tweaking, some very basic administration, etc.
<spacey> how to get online
<spacey> :P
<jelkner> JaneW: kevin and i plan to continue meeting to work on it
<spacey> to look for more docs
<ogra> hehe
<jelkner> but it will be much easier for us *after* dapper is released
<jelkner> we won't have to write about a moving target
<highvoltage> i think the edubuntu cookbook is a big job, i have confidence in flint's drive in it
<JaneW> jelkner: excellent, thank-you :))
<ogra> jelkner, but everything you wrote is obsolete then 
<highvoltage> (and jelkner and kevin, of course) :)
<ogra> since we have a new moving target
<jelkner> ogra: why?
<JaneW> jelkner: I thought you liked a challenge
<JaneW> jelkner: but point taken
<JaneW> jelkner: so you'll finish just in time to start the next version
<highvoltage> perhaps it's just a bigger challenge for ogra to keep good backward compatibility with settings :)
<JaneW> ?
* JaneW hides
<jelkner> lol
<highvoltage> this version is a bigger job than future versions,
<spacey> anyway i fill fix up the hardware requirements page of the cookbook before next meeting
<highvoltage> because the first version was based on K12-LTSP
<ogra> jelkner, 80% of the stuff i'd have written for breezy would have to be wiped for dapper the distro changes with every release
<spacey> that worksheet is completely empty btw
<JaneW> spacey: thanks
<highvoltage> once it's edubunturised, it will be easier to update
<jelkner> as it grows, it will be easier to update
<JaneW> oh and congrats to spacey
<spacey> does it correspond with the work that has been done?
<spacey> JaneW: thanks :)
<JaneW> he was granted ubuntu memebership yesterday
<highvoltage> what's currently the biggest challenge with the cookbook?
<highvoltage> spacey: cool, congrats!
<spacey> yey thanks
<spacey> :P
<jelkner> highvoltage: getting people to submit recipes
<flint> never forget the groucho marx quote "I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members." 
<flint> :^)
<highvoltage> ah, right. it's more than just a howto, right? it contains a bunch of mini-howto's too?
<jelkner> highvoltage: exactly
<highvoltage> jelkner: i could get you some tuxlab-specific recipies, which could be modified.
<jelkner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook
<spacey> well you need to cover the basics first
<mhz> spacey: wow! congrats!!
<jelkner> highvoltage: go for it
<spacey> mhz: ty:)
<highvoltage> jelkner: i'll try to have it upline before the end of the meeting
<spacey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook/Worksheet <<-- almost empty
<highvoltage> *online
<flint> spacey, congratulations on the membership btw...
<spacey> ty
<flint> ok, regarding the book, I think what you lack is an editor.
<highvoltage> flint: i thought you were the editor?
<jelkner> flint: kevin and i will do that
<JaneW> highvoltage: no jelkner and kjcole are editing
<flint> highvoltage, see what i mean?  writers love to be editors...
<spacey> jelkner: maybe add an extra column which describes the status(completed, wip, etc) for each chapter to the worksheet.
<flint> like programmers love to be developers...
<JaneW> spacey: that's a good idea
<jelkner> good idea, spacey, i'll add that presently...
<highvoltage> flint: if i love to create, what does that make me?
<JaneW> jelkner: : you can use my cool colours too
<JaneW> highvoltage: a father?
<JaneW> *duck*
<flint> jelkner, you are the writer, not the editor.  an editor manages the work.
<highvoltage> JaneW: eh.. not yet, no :)
<JaneW> highvoltage: sorry, just kidding
<highvoltage> :)
<flint> JaneW, you do as good a job of this as anyone... but I would say your plate is full.
<JaneW> I could look at *some* of it
<highvoltage> you know, when it comes to writing, there's nothing like a bit of pressure
<JaneW> but can;t volunteer for the whole job as I'd never manage to finish it
<flint> highvoltage, it makes you a jewel, a pearl of rare price...
<highvoltage> what about setting a deadline, even if it's unreasonable, for say, the end of April for a complete first draft?
<jelkner> ok, status column is there.  kjcoloe and i will update that this sunday
<spacey> maybe also add some quality control, personally i think each chapter should at least be checked twice by other persons. a tech person and a grammer nazi.
<highvoltage> and then we make someone like flint the editor and give him the whip?
<flint> highvoltage, indeed a writer needs a fixed goal. 
<flint> highvoltage, oh i so much prefer the blade...
<highvoltage> spacey: absolutely
<highvoltage> flint: that can be arranged
<flint> JaneW, or deadline is march 26 or so.  where is that url?
<JaneW> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<flint> thank you jane
<JaneW> March 23rd
<JaneW> Doc Freeze
<spacey> so
<highvoltage> i don't think it's realistic that a high-quality, finished document will be available by then :/
<flint> JaneW, indeed i misspoke from memory.
<spacey> thats hard work :P
<flint> highvoltage, you can have it good, cheap or fast.  pick two.
<highvoltage> flint: good, cheap
<highvoltage> perhaps we should arrange another meeting for docs?
<highvoltage> JaneW: time to move on?
<JaneW> highvoltage: yes
<JaneW> ok, web site?
<highvoltage> sure.
<highvoltage> the proto.edubuntu.org.za is set up
<JaneW> but we can't see it...
* flint listening to elkner whine on voice...
<highvoltage> i'll send the username and passowrd to everyone with gpg keys on launchpad soon
<JaneW> highvoltage: ok thanks :)
<highvoltage> there's not much to see at the moment, Znarl could only give me login access to the server today
<JaneW> highvoltage: so how does it look?
<highvoltage> so the theming fun will only start from now
<JaneW> oic
<highvoltage> JaneW: like a very dull plain drupal site
<JaneW> highvoltage: have you got your ideas worked out?
<highvoltage> JaneW: due to change shortly
<JaneW> great
<highvoltage> JaneW: yep, mostly.
<highvoltage> JaneW: i haven't worked out how they'll fit in with philips plans, but we'll make it work.
<JaneW> ok, are the 2 of you in contact?
<highvoltage> JaneW: yes, almost every day
<JaneW> there are only about 5 weeks to get everything sorted, with Easter in between
<JaneW> highvoltage: excellent thanks
<highvoltage> Easter is probably when I'll get the bulk of it done
<highvoltage> i'd like to get the theming and layout sorted ASAP
<JaneW> oh... yay then
<highvoltage> and then pump in content, especially over easter
<highvoltage> when people stop bothering me
<JaneW> are you wroking independently from the official 6.04 theme?
<JaneW> highvoltage: also we are thinking about using that wallpaper I showed earlier - esp if the guy tones it down a notch
<highvoltage> i looked at the style-guides, apart from that, i haven't seen a 6.04 theme yet
<JaneW> for the young version anyway
<highvoltage> JaneW: i think he'll need to tone it down quite drastically, it won't look nice in a lab if it's repeated over 20+ PC's, but i'll send him my suggestions as well
<JaneW> ogra: which one will be the dfeault again? the older one?
<highvoltage> ogra: with theming, at one stage it was discussed that debconf will ask which art set you want. is that dapper+1? (i'm thinking cd space here)
<ogra> JaneW, mid age+
<highvoltage> edubuntu girl :)
<JaneW> ogra: right
<ogra> highvoltage, nope
<ogra> we'll install mid age by default 
<JaneW> highvoltage: so that wouldn't be in a lab unless the young one is chosen
<highvoltage> ok.
<ogra> the admin can dpkg-reconfigure the edubuntu-artwork package
<JaneW> highvoltage: I expect home users are more loikely to chose the young install
<highvoltage> ogra: will all the wallpapers be installed by default, so that a user can choose another one?
<JaneW> highvoltage: but can you contact him? or should I?
<ogra> highvoltage, yep
<highvoltage> JaneW: I don't mind contacting him
<JaneW> highvoltage: cool thanks - you have a better artistic eye too :)
<highvoltage> JaneW: I think i will regardless, but you can contact him too if you want
<highvoltage> JaneW: :)
<JaneW> highvoltage: you negotiate the changes, and I'll negotioate that he's happy we ship with it (if we do). Ok?
<JaneW> flint: and you will be happy that it's diversity sensitive
<highvoltage> JaneW: yes sir!
<highvoltage> erm.. mam!
<highvoltage> JaneW: i'll check with the diversification as well ;)
<highvoltage> but we can make sure that the others are happy too
<flint> JaneW, absolutely.
<JaneW> highvoltage: we'll def get a vote on it first
<JaneW> it will NOT be on my head this time
<highvoltage> JaneW: of course
<JaneW> we are talking about a modification of this btw http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Edubuntu-Children_Of_Edubuntu_1024x768.png
<JaneW> for the Junior wallpaper
<highvoltage> i'm going to suggest that he makes the heads much smaller, put them at the left halfway in the brown part
<highvoltage> with the edubuntu logo at the right
<highvoltage> then make the hill smaller, and add some more hills
<highvoltage> and put the rainbow on the hill thats closest to the edubuntu logo.
<ogra> be carefull with the red logo on the green background
<highvoltage> something like that, and then we modify from there
<highvoltage> ogra: yeah, the edubuntu logo will have to be more or less completely in the brown
<highvoltage> ogra, JaneW: are we very strict that the edubuntu logo should keep its colours?
<ogra> or add a drop shadow if you put it on green ... just dont put it plain into the green
<highvoltage> if you look at the Ubuntu wallpaper, they modified the logo to fit in with the wallpaper
<highvoltage> ogra: ok. i agree.
* mhz silently whishes everyone uploaded SVG's + png's or jpg's
<JaneW> highvoltage: yes the logo is the logo now, we can;t tinker with it
<JaneW> highvoltage: so yo are saying he must totally change it! lol (but I agree)
<highvoltage> JaneW: no, not totally change it, just possible fade it, or make the colours more neutral
<JaneW> yup, agreed
<highvoltage> JaneW: like Ubuntu's artwork
<JaneW> the hues on the current wall paper are nice
<highvoltage> they are. they remind me of mario brothers, somehow. makes me nostalgic.
<mhz> :)
<highvoltage> it has an element of fun that other distro's don't have
<JaneW> yup
<JaneW> it's very discriminatory though
<JaneW> makes me feel marginalised
<JaneW> because they have no noses ;)
<JaneW> lol
<mhz> lol  -->  EdubuntuGirl_1024x76..> 31-Dec-1969 19:00   56K
<JaneW> mhz: oh!
<JaneW> gosh, ok edubuntu - the distro with no nose
<ogra> damned 
<ogra> we'll get tons of complaints again
<mhz> highvoltage: when I could finally upload/submit 1 wallpaper for edubuntu dapper (1 month ago or so) it was never shown. Was that too ugly? Then I tried to upload 2 more... unsuccessfully 
<highvoltage> ogra: we'll just cut off their noses, then they can't complain
<JaneW> ok, do we have anymore real topics to discuss?
<highvoltage> mhz: the people on your wallpapers had noses. this is unacceptable!
<mhz> lol
<highvoltage> mhz: where did you upload it, can we have a look again?
<mhz> highvoltage: a.u.c
<JaneW> mhz: to the artwork site?
<mhz> it took me like 10 minutes to figure out how to do it :(
<JaneW> mhz: they were prolly never processes - I will log in and look...
<mhz> JaneW: it is ok, I usually end up disliking my ideas for artwork when I look at them after 2 weeks :)
<ogra> yeah they need an admin to promote them
<JaneW> hrm, if I find my login I will do it
<ogra> just FYI:
<mhz> lol
<ogra> http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/total.html.en
<ogra> thats the download stats for the swedish mirror 
<ogra> according to it, edubuntu was downloaded 842005 times sucessfully from there between 3 NOV and today
<ogra> err yesterday
<mhz> hmm, why there are 5 wallpapers dated 1969, same person?
<ogra> they are from the early days of ubuntu ;)
<mhz> ogra: is that little or lot?\
<mhz> ogra: lol
<highvoltage> ogra: oh my word, that's a *lot* of edubuntu downloads!
<ogra> eighthundrethousand ? 
<ogra> is that little or lot ?
<ogra> :)
* highvoltage wonders if it's right
<mhz> ooohhhhhhh, times downloaded!!!!?????
<highvoltage> it's more than 9 terrabytes of download, if i read correctly
<ogra> we're still 40000 behind Kubuntu :)
* mhz is still under effects of pills so he's very sloooooowwww
<mhz> (more than usual)
<mhz> ogra: could that info be wrong?
<mhz> or not accurate?
<ogra> unlikely
<JaneW> ogra: oh we told silbs 100 000, when we should have said 1 000 000
<mhz> maybe 'tries' to be donwloaded?
<JaneW> but that sounds WAY too high to me
<ogra> thats a very big university, i think they get the stats for their servers right
<ogra> JaneW, look in #c :)
<ogra> i dont think the stats are wrong ... 
<ogra> (we might interpret them wrongly though... but i doubt that)
<highvoltage> JaneW: in this case, our estimates of a few thousand was way pesimistic this morning :)
<JaneW> ogra: what you posted here is magnitude of 10 more
<ogra> yes
* mhz whishes at least 100 of them were teachers providing feedback
<ogra> but what we looked at was a weekly stat
<JaneW> goeie genaade!
<ogra> so it sounds about right
<mhz> JaneW: will edubuntu be shipped this tiem?
* highvoltage must go now, thanks everyone
<mhz> time
<mhz> highvoltage: c ya
<ogra> yes
<flint> later jonathan!!!
<JaneW> mhz: not yet official
<ogra> only the install CD though
<JaneW> mhz: but a probable yes
<JaneW> *bounce*
<JaneW> bye highvoltage 
<ogra> (make that a *very* likely)
<JaneW> thank-you
<mhz> JaneW: what does this depend on?
<JaneW> mhz: management
<ogra> mhz, management decisions 
<mhz> again?
<mhz> hehehe
<ogra> always
<ogra> but its pretty sure already that we'll get it
<JaneW> mhz: that's how companies work :P
<mhz> will ubuntu design guys provide CD artwork?
<mhz> ubuntu = caninial
<mhz> canonical
<mhz> .oO(sloppy fingers!)
<mhz> hello?
<JaneW> mhz: I *think* so
* ogra hasnt heard anything yet
<JaneW> ok is this meeting over?
<ogra> i'd think so
<JaneW> mhz: but if the compnay ships them officially, I think the packaging will be official too
<JaneW> jsgotangco: good timing :P
<ogra> even jsgotangco comes to clean up the room ... must be over 
<ogra> :)
<JaneW> ogra: hahaha
<mhz> JaneW: then, no need to provide it via community?
<JaneW> mhz: not AFAIK
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> i just finished the day with an edubuntu talk
<ogra> cool :)
<ogra> jsgotangco, you missed the download stats look for edubuntu: http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/total.html.en
<ogra> :)
<jsgotangco> nnohting to report for me for now till i make an upload this weekend
<spacey> :)
<jsgotangco> i'll make you guys busy next week
<jsgotangco> ZOMG
<jsgotangco> Average Bytes Transmitted Daily	2,411,884,642,509
<sivang> still edubuntu? :)
<flint> sivang, we are just breaking up...
<flint> JaneW, expect an email. sksk
<JaneW> sksk?
<JaneW> thanks everyone
<jsgotangco> cheers
* highvoltage stares around in the empty meeting room.
* highvoltage decides to go to bed
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-03-14
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 10 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14  Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu
<mdz_> good morning
<mvo> hello mdz_
<ajmitch_> morning
<Kamion> morning
<mdz_> do we have everyone?
* ogra looks around
<pitti> hey everybody
* Mithrandir waves
<doko> the ui sprinters are missing
<Kinnison> blurgh
<JaneW> ping: BenC, dholbach, fabbione, infinity, iwj, jbailey, heno, Kinnison, keybuk, ogra,  seb128, sivan ,Riddell
<JaneW> hi all
<mvo> doko: not all of them
<JaneW> doko: so you are here then..? ;)
<ranf> hi
<doko> JaneW: not awake ...
* JaneW sees that Riddell is here...
<Kinnison> JaneW: pong
<mdz_> mvo: would you ring seb128/dholbach's room?
<mvo> mdz_: no answer so far
<fabbione> JanC: pong..
<mdz_> mvo: same for Riddell please
<JaneW> hi fabbione 
<JaneW> fabbione: and it's JaneW :P
<mdz_> I've sent an SMS to Keybuk
<mvo> mdz_: I don't know Riddell roomnumber, if you don't know too it I'll call the reception
<fabbione> yeah yeah.. JaneW stop pinging me on 20 channels and i wll be less confused :P
<mdz_> mvo: I don't
<JaneW> fabbione: I am covering all bases :P
<fabbione> ehhe
<JaneW> can someone in the UK call keybuk please?
<doko> fabbione confused by JaneW?
<Kinnison> JaneW: I'm on it
<ajmitch_> morning dholbach 
<JaneW> Kamion: ty
<seb128> hi
<JaneW> ok we are missing BenC, jbailey, heno & keybuk
<pitti> hey seb128 
<mvo> mdz_: Riddelli is coming
<JaneW> might be a bit early for heno
<seb128> hey pitti :)
<Kinnison> JaneW: rang out to voicemail
<mdz_> no response from BenC either
<mdz_> need to get started though
<JaneW> Kinnison: hrm. Thanks for trying.
<mdz_> dholbach: you're up first
<JaneW> mdz_: I'll mail them both.
<dholbach> mdz_: i'm not prepared yet
<dholbach> sorry
<dholbach> we were down at the conference room
<dholbach> it was closed *grrr*
<JaneW> backwards again?
<Riddell> hi all
<JaneW> hi Riddell 
<dholbach> right, here i am:
<dholbach> this week: UI sprint (worked on gdm login screen, icons, gnome-session fading)
<dholbach> this week (todo): UI sprint, more icons, little improvements here and there
<dholbach> next week: new GNOME (2.14.0), catching up with bugs
<JaneW> ty dholbach 
<JaneW> is mdz_ still with us?
<JaneW> doko: you ready?
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: gcj-4.1 final uploaded, gcc-3.4.6 final uploaded, gcc-4.0.3 release is expected today, then toolchain-roadmap can be set to implemented
<doko> - python-roadmap: only change this week an update to current CVS leading to 2.4.3, plus bug fixes
<doko> - openoffice.org: 2.0.2 release announced today, -l10n package uploaded, other packges will follow after flight-5
<doko> - openoffice.org-amd64: all ia32-libs* packages updated, spec can be set to implemented now.
<doko> - other: gcc-3.3/gcc-3.4 security updates, zope3 in main installable, other bug fixes and bug tracking work
<doko> - next week: OOo sprint, OOo fixes, OOo bug work, fixing other bugs.
<JaneW> doko: thanks, so you expect at least one goal to move to implemented this week?
<JaneW> toolchain-roadmap...?
<doko> JaneW: yes
<JaneW> and openofficeamd64 too
<doko> yes, mot "my" spec
<JaneW> how are the others looking? Still on track?
<mdz__> having connectivity problems here
<Mithrandir> JaneW: ooo-amd64 was deferred, I though?
<JaneW> hi mdz__ doko's just been
<mdz__> saw dholbach and doko's updates, but my responses were lagged apparently
<JaneW> Mithrandir: right, but it;s done anyway right, even if it's not included now
<doko> Mithrandir: it was having it built native _or_ the -amd64 packages
<Mithrandir> doko: ook
<JaneW> doko: and java roadmap? I am still bothered by the RED status
<doko> JaneW: openoffice-gnome -> OOo sprint, it's all implemnted, what can be implemented for dapper
<JaneW> doko: great, can I mark it as implemented?
<doko> JaneW: java done for the need of OOo, others not touched
<JaneW> doko: so done as required, rest deferred?
<doko> JaneW: -gnome: most things implemented , java: done as required, rest deferred
<JaneW> doko: right, thanks
<JaneW> can we move on?
<infinity> Please.
<JaneW> fabbione. 
<fabbione> * server-candy: Missing/buggy: apache2 for "central snakeoil SSL setup" and kernel -server as default from CD install.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: Waiting ocfs2-tools release for new userland to sync with the kernel that will allow (finally) full desync later.
<fabbione> * RLIMIT_PRIO: should be all in place.
<fabbione> * last week: mostly holiday. Catching up, bug fixing.
<fabbione> * next week: partman-auto/espresso (plan to review what's done with Kamion after meeting), kernel security, bug fixing.
<mdz__> are my messages getting through?
<JaneW> mdz__: no
<seb128> mdz__: this one is
<fabbione> mdz__: last one was:
<fabbione> <mdz__> saw dholbach and doko's updates, but my responses were lagged apparently
<seb128> mdz__: the previous was <mdz__> saw dholbach and doko's updates, but my responses were lagged apparently
<seb128> then <mdz__> are my messages getting through?
<mdz__> ok
<JaneW> fabbione: are you managing to help Kamion much with espresso?
<mdz__> fabbione: would you confirm with the requestor that RLIMIT_RTPRIO is working for them now?
<fabbione> JaneW: i am trying the best i can...
<fabbione> mdz__: will do
<JaneW> ok, heno isnt here. anyone know about example content?
<Kamion> JaneW: the partman-auto stuff fabbione's doing is a respectable chunk of work and it's pretty necessary
<JaneW> dholbach: ^^
<JaneW> ?
<JaneW> ok I'll mail about that
<dholbach> JaneW: it's implemented - only updates and selection of other material is needed for now
<JaneW> Kamion: ok thanks
<JaneW> dholbach: ok, how much work does that involve? Can we set it to implemented, or is that premature?
<JaneW> infinity: when you're ready
<infinity> last week buildd: Spent most of the week with soyuz/buildds, both hunting and fixing bugs, as well as getting sparc and ia64 caught up again.
<infinity> last week packaging: PHP security updates are uploaded and built, just need to release an advisory, did a bunch of work locally on Thunderbird and Thunderbird extensions.
<mdz__> dholbach: we have examples for each of the categories in the spec?
<infinity> next week buildd: hppa should come online soon, and need the same (or tougher) sort of love that sparc and ia64 have been getting, plus a vicious soyuz bug that makes mass-give-backs more painful needs to be sorted.
<dholbach> JaneW: set it to implemented - the example-content visibilification has been introduced
<infinity> next week packaging: Thunderbird, Thunderbird, Thunderbird, and more Thunderbird, I think.  Lots of bugs, and I'd like to cut them in half before release.  I also need to get some LRM upstream bumps in (pending approval).
<dholbach> mdz__: Jeff wanted to add some thing too.
<JaneW> dholbach: ok thanks, will do - who is responsible for completing the content bits?
<dholbach> JaneW: heno is working on it. he mailed the art and desktop lists about it.
<JaneW> dholbach: ok, ty
<mdz__> JaneW: heno
<JaneW> infinity: the LRM stuff going to happen in time?
<infinity> JaneW: Pending approval from mdz.
<JaneW> ah ok.
<infinity> mdz__: I need a UVF exception for fglrx (again), and avm fritz (whacky isdn thingee that doko uses), if that's cool? :)
<infinity> mdz__: doko assures me the latter is great and spiffy, the former adds more hardware support (yay), so it a bit of a must I'd think.
<JaneW> iwj: you're up
<doko> the latter is an amd64 update only, needed for sending faxes
<Mithrandir> infinity: that's the first time I've ever heard somebody refer to avm fritz as "spiffy"
<iwj> AutomatedTesting: Spent most of last week wrestling with Xen, pbuilder, etc.  There turned out to be an annoying tcp checksum bug in Xen.  I now have a working script for setting up testbeds.
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: When discussed on ubuntu-devel, no-one was clearly in favour of the new behaviour without `you have chosen to open ...', so I will revert it.
<iwj> Firefox maintenance: Not done much this last week apart from dealing with bugs and discussing the DefaultApplicationsFirefox change.  I'm halfway to preparing a new release and that will go out today.  (An assortment of minor things; I need to do a breezy->dapper test to check some of the bugs.)
<iwj> Firefox maintenance: horizontal scroll vs unwanted back problem (Malone 31827): do we have anyone who's an expert on mouse input processing in X ?  I think this bug needs looking at.
<iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: no progress this week.
<iwj> Next week: on holiday.
<iwj> Email/bugs backlog: not too bad.  I didn't fix the amd64 gs bug 29878 yet; will try to do that tomorrow.
<JaneW> iwj: those docs going to happen? ;) they are not tied to the release at all though, are they?
<iwj> No, they're not tied to the release.
<JaneW> ok, good.
<iwj> But I want to get them done.
<infinity> iwj: Are you doing de-facto gs maintenance right now?
<JaneW> agreed.
<iwj> infinity: Err, not really but I probably should be.  That is, I don't think Malone's sending me the bugs.
<mdz_> urgh
<infinity> iwj: That perl error spewed by gs when fonts are installed is a bit irritating (and I suspect right up your alley to find and fix in about 10 seconds, given your perl history)
<mdz_> iwj: which bugs?
<iwj> Bugs for gs.
<mdz_> iwj: are you set as a bug contact?
<iwj> I doubt it.  Can I do that myself ?
<mdz_> iwj: yes
<mdz_> as for any package
<Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gs/+subscribe
<iwj> OK, I'll do that.
<JaneW> jbailey is not here, I will mail him.
* pitti tried to find the 'Edit bug contacts' link and failed yesterday
<JaneW> Kamion.
<iwj> infinity: I'll take a look.  Do you have a handy ref ?  I wasn't watching my last upgrade so I didn't spot it myself ...
<mdz_> JaneW: I don't think jbailey has anything outstanding
<Kamion> ue-gnome-ui: Nearly all UE progress this week has been here; I visited the UI sprint in London on Monday, got good feedback, and have implemented about half of the necessary changes.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: Basically implemented now, although needs testing of espresso-yaboot since my powerpc system's CD drive is too broken for me to test it myself.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-copy-filesystem: Uploaded live-only package removal code; still blocked on manifest from buildds.
<Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Handed off gparted work to Daniel Silverstone; we've had a couple of long in-person discussions about where to take it for Dapper, which have resulted in a pretty clear plan of action that shouldn't take Daniel too long to do. Waiting on disk selector in partman from Fabio for most of the rest of this. Added format checkbox to mountpoint page.
<minghua> infinity: are you talking about bug #6614?
<Kamion> next-week: Planning on Flight CD 5 today if possible; Edubuntu amd64 CDs are overflowing and the live CDs need a good kicking in general (just uploaded a fix for some of the problems). Sort out the identification page's UI today. Another UI sprint visit on Friday. Probably more UI hacking for the rest of the week.
<infinity> iwj: I'll find the Debian bug later and link it in Malone or some such fanciness.
<iwj> infinity: Thanks.  Just telling me the Debian bug number will do :-).
<mdz_> infinity: livefs manifest for Kamion?
<infinity> minghua: Oh, so I am.
<ogra> Kamion, urgh
<JaneW> Kamion: are you handling flight 5?
<ogra> Kamion, today ??
<Kamion> mdz_: I just nudged him about it before the meeting
<JaneW> Kamion: I thought you were going to hand it off?
<Kamion> we'll talk about it right afterwards
<Kamion> JaneW: I never got round to talking to Adam about that
<Kamion> infinity: fancy doing Flight CD 5? :-)
<infinity> iwj: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/defoma/+bug/6614
<Riddell> hmm, I can't test any kubuntu CDs for a flight today
<JaneW> Kamion: can you give me % completes when you have a chance please - it;s helpful to track the progress
<Kamion> JaneW: sure, afterwards
<JaneW> Kamion: heh
<minghua> infinity: I am doing the inter-BTS linking now (and assign it to gs-common, I suppose)
<Mithrandir> Kamion: if I can nag you about flight stuff, I can do flight 5, sure.
<infinity> Kamion: You were planning on handing off Flight 5? :)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: feel free
<Kamion> perhaps you and infinity want to tag-team it
<JaneW> Kamion/ mdz: what's the feel about espresso for dapper, it going to make it?
<iwj> infinity: Thanks.
<mdz_> Riddell: vmware
<Mithrandir> Kamion,infinity: tag-team sounds fine to me.
* infinity agrees.
<Kamion> we'll talk elsewhere then
<Mithrandir> sure
<JaneW> infinity/ Mithrandir if you could help with flight 5 and give Kamion some slack to finish espresso that would *really* help
<mdz_> ok
<Mithrandir> JaneW: we've already agreed to do so. :-)
<JaneW> let me know if you need help coordinating
<JaneW> Mithrandir: YAY
<JaneW> ok next
<mdz_> still no Keybuk?
<JaneW> keybuk not here, so it's Kinnison ...
* Kinnison can try and call keybuk again?
<JaneW> Kinnison: you got news?
<mdz_> Kinnison: go ahead with your summary
<Kinnison>  * PowerManagementConfiguration: Mostly bugfixing. Upstream continues to take an active interest in taking on our patches and helping with our bugs.
<Kinnison>  * UbuntuExpress/GraphicalPartitioningTool: Correcting UI glitches in gparted's installer-mode patch, suppressing filesystem building and generally making it fit better with espresso.
<Kinnison>  * General: Some soyuz work, correcting bugs with ACLs on NEW etc.
<Kinnison>  * ToDo: Continue bugfixing g-p-m, acpi-support, etc. Filling out rest of gparted needs for espresso. Espresso-UI work as agreed with Colin. Interspersed with that for the next two weeks is the Launchpad/Bazaar-NG sprint which I have to attend in London. I'll be doing my best to keep up with my distro work during the sprint also.
<Kinnison>  * Bugs: No significant changes to last weeks numbers, pretty much as many opened as closed.
<dholbach> Kinnison: are you going to get the newest release of gparted in?
<dholbach> Kinnison: I already said to Kamion that I was fine with handing the package to somebody else
<Kinnison> dholbach: the installer-mode patch stands no chance of applying to it
<dholbach> hmmmmm, it has important fixes in it
<Kinnison> dholbach: so currently I'm making the outward functionality match what espresso needs in 0.1
<dholbach> Ok.
<Kinnison> dholbach: I'll then be looking at 0.2.2 but I don't know if I can reintegrate the patch in time
<dholbach> Yeah, I looked at it too and it was my feeling as well.
<Kinnison> I.E. no promises, but I'm doing my best
<mdz_> dholbach: can we work with upstream to get that patch integrated?
<mdz_> dholbach: upstream keeps breaking it
<dholbach> mdz_: upstream wants to integrate the patch, there was just little communication yet. Kamion: did I say something wrong? or do you have an update?
<mdz_> Kamion: on whose list is deferring partman commit to the final stage of espresso?
<Kamion> mdz_: mine
<mdz_> ok
<Kamion> mdz_: I've opened communication with upstream on that; mail latency is just kinda long on both sides
<mdz_> Kinnison: how much of the LP sprint are you attending?
<Kinnison> mdz_: In terms of me being in London, I am expected at the entire thing. In terms of how much I'm taking part in, I'm not sure
<Kamion> mdz_: Kinnison and I decided not to defer advanced partitioning commit to the final stage; it's too big a job for Dapper and we can have some text that says "advanced partitioning changes are applied IMMEDIATELY" or something
<Kamion> but we'll defer autopartitioning to the final stage
<mdz_> Kamion: sure, no problem with that
<Kinnison> mdz_: I'm trying to get agreement for me to drive to the sprint so that if I need to spend time with Colin or Matthew Garrett, I can just drive back for an evening
<JaneW> ok, can we move on?
<JaneW> Mithrandir.
<Mithrandir> misc: Sprint with Scott, had a sickday, been hacking on espresso.  Still goes slower than I'd like to, but getting there.  General bug triage
<mdz_> JaneW: yes
<Mithrandir> next week: espresso, get popcon.u.c working
<Mithrandir> blocked on: nothing
<JaneW> Mithrandir: you feeling better now?
<Mithrandir> yeah, fine now.  It was Tuesday, so..
<JaneW> ok, good
<mdz_> Mithrandir: which espresso bits are you working on?
<JaneW> Mithrandir: also next week: flight 5 :)
<Mithrandir> mdz_: keyboard chooser still.  Moving away from using console-data to using kbd-chooser again.
<Mithrandir> mdz_: our keyboard stuff really, really needs attention for dapper+1
<infinity> Gave up on using X keymaps?
<infinity> Or was that months ago? :)
<mdz_> Mithrandir: yes; we should be able to unify that for dapper+1
<Mithrandir> infinity: discovered that the tool which loads X keymaps was written in perl, so slightly inappropriate for d-i
<infinity> Ahh.  Ick.
<Mithrandir> infinity: started investigating how libxkb* worked and stopped just a bit short of going insane. :-)
<mdz_> Mithrandir: for now, using the same logic from d-i is fine
<Mithrandir> mdz_: yeah, that's what I'm going for
<mdz_> Mithrandir: ok, thanks
<mdz_> mvo: ?
<Mithrandir> so now I'm waiting a bit for daniels to give me the code he has on his laptop with a broken screen so I can proceed with lcxkb
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - on the UI sprint (worked on various litlle things and the notification daemon to make it look cooler)
<mvo> - dist-upgrade: worked with the lp people on getting the magic into the archive (done)
<mvo> - 3rd party apps updated and added gstreamer desktop files, uploaded new gdebi (mostly cosmetic fixes)
<mvo> Will do next week:
<mvo> - i18n sprint
<mvo> - get hold of infinity to get the auto-dist-upgrade test chroot setup
<mvo> - get the upgrade tool into the archive
<mdz_> mvo: where in the archive is the dist-upgrade stuff?
<mdz_> (the path)
<mvo> mdz_: it is ready for upload and when it is uploaded it will be in /dists/dapper/dist-upgrader-all
<infinity> mvo: Tackle me tomorrow, and I'll get you chroots on all the arches currently in the DC, and we can play.
<mvo> infinity: that sounds good
<infinity> (So, that's everything except hppa)
<mvo> mdz_: sorry, make that dists/dapper/main/dist-upgrader-all
<mdz_> mvo: next week also, backporting to breezy
<mvo> mdz_: yes
<doko> mvo, dholbach, seb128: can anybody of you ask the scim guys for a test plan, how to check for a working setup next week?
<seb128> doko: not me
<dholbach> doko: seb128 and I won't be there.
<doko> mvo: ok, it's your's
<mvo> doko: that would be me then
<pitti> I can ask freeflying and huahua for help
* seb128 hugs mvo
<dholbach> pitti: and minghua and atie
<pitti> right
<Amaranth> zzz time
<Amaranth> err, wrong channel
<minghua> I've told doko that I'll help on scim in OOo
<JaneW> minghua: thank-you :)
<mdz_> mvo: has the upload/publish cycle of the dist-upgrade tool been tested with your participation?
<doko> minghua: of course, nice!
<mvo> mdz_: no, it was only tested by the lp team so far. I provided sample data though. I plan to do a upload of the current code very soon to see where in the archive it ends up :)
<mdz_> ok
<JaneW> mvo: thanks
<mdz_> mvo: thanks
<JaneW> ogra
<ogra> first: sorry for missing last time
<ogra> * general: hunting of the "no ssh keys are generated" bug and working on a fix, branched out a new devel branch for ltsp (http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/ltsp/devel/), fixed several small ltsp bugs and cleaned up the code. fixed the last "gnome-screensaver ignores mediaplayers" bugs. worked on edubuntu-artwork ltsp enhancements (ldm theme handling, usplash theme incliusion in ltsp-client), exchanging of the vendor logo, wallpaper select
<ogra> ion etc
<ogra> next-week: more testing and digging for ltsp bugs, more edubuntu-docs work (needs to go to main) writing some ltsp documentation, getting edubuntu-artwork ready, flight5 preparation i guess (strike that if we do it today...please announce it a day in advance, its hard to coordinate with testers if it comes completely unannounced), more gnome-screensaver bughunting, play the CD space shuffling game to tame edubuntu
<mdz_> ogra: ok
<mdz_> pitti: ?
<pitti> reducing-duplication: DONE: bulk of gnutls12 migration (only buildd lag delays the actual demotion), seed changes for demoting libgd, evaluated libsqlite0->3 transition, reordered spec page for easier reading
<pitti> general stuff done this week: many bug fixes, fixed thunderbird to work with locale packages, created tbird locale packages
<pitti> next week: bug squashing
<Kamion> ogra: sorry for the short notice
<pitti> ... and heavy CD testing again
<JaneW> is it feasible to do flight 5 today?
<ogra> Kamion, its fine for now ...  :)
<mdz_> pitti: are langpack updates from rosetta happening?
<seb128> has rosetta imported dapper now?
<pitti> mdz_: still not, carlos had to rewrite the import queue and is waiting for review/rollout
<pitti> mdz_: infinity enabled the old way of publishing again so that we have a fallback
* pitti grumbles
<seb128> pitti: can people translate dapper packages using rosetta now?
<seb128> or we are still waiting on the import?
<pitti> I'm asking for a status daily, but I can only wiat so far
<mdz_> pitti: ok
<pitti> seb128: I think it's stalled on the import; some packages are imported, but not all
<seb128> urg
<seb128> k :/
<Kamion> JaneW: possibly tomorrow, depends how long livefs fixing takes really, and if testers can't be found today then pushing to tomorrow is fine
<mdz_> seb128: ?
<seb128> UI sprint: played with new icons and theme, updated gdm menu and session dialog icons sets, played with gtkrc for GDM (colors, fonts, etc)
<seb128> other: a few GNOME updates from this week, fixed some bugs on the desktop
<seb128> UI sprint to do: profiling GDM, apply gnome-panel help submenu changes decided, doing the menu items labels and tooltip changes (just got the list), doing some little UI changes to the dialog that Martin did for the sync during device ejecting 
<seb128> .
<seb128> next week: GNOME 2.14.O, catchup with bugs and mails backlog
<mdz_> seb128: ok, thanks
<mdz_> Riddell: ?
<Riddell> done: kubuntu-express: Kamion has merged and espresso-frontend-kde released, should now be on the CD
<Riddell> ui sprint: new logo, usplash, kdm theme done along with kwwii, ui tweaks done with sabdfl
<Riddell> kubuntu-system-tools: new guidance with bug fixes tested and uploaded
<Riddell> also: test and uploading various fixes people have sent me
<Riddell> TODO: kubuntu-express: better qtparted integration, location page, keyboard page
<Riddell> ui sprint: ksplash, background, window manager look, various other artwork (example content)
<mdz_> Riddell: ok
<mdz_> Riddell: kde upstream is finalized for dapper?
<mdz_> or may we see another point release?
<Riddell> mdz_: 3.5.2 due just after or beta release, I'll see at the time if it seems stable enough to go in
<mdz_> Riddell: ok
<Riddell> but my feeling is that it should
<Riddell> s/or/our/
<mdz_> JaneW: please chase BenC and Keybuk?
<Mithrandir> Riddell: having kubuntu-express as done and todo seems slightly escherisque.
<mdz_> did we skip anyone?
<Riddell> Mithrandir: done is Kamion merging and first release, todo is still a long list
<JaneW> mdz_: will do
<Kamion> yeah, I find batching per-goal rather than batching by done/todo a bit clearer personally
<Riddell> Mithrandir: that done was a header for work done this week, not that the spec is all done, if that's unclear
<JaneW> mdz_: we need to discuss next week's meeting
* Kinnison nods
<Kamion> oh, another note, removing packages in soyuz now seems to work, so let me know if you need stuff killed off (but don't bother for stuff that just isn't built from source any more, as we have a report for that)
<pitti> yay
<Kinnison> Kamion: Glad to hear it worked
<Kamion> Kinnison: not entirely sure about binary removals yet
<mdz_> right
* Kinnison should have added "Solved soyuz's hotel-california mode and gave patch to cprov" to his General section
<Kamion> I'll have to wait a day after the removals to be sure
<Kinnison> Kamion: Have you tried one so I can look at it in the tables?
<Kinnison> JaneW: if it's not too late, can you add the hotel-california to my General 'done' queue?
<Kamion> Kinnison: a bunch - let's say linux-image-2.6.15-14-386
<mdz_> I'll be travelling around the meeting next week
<doko> Kamion: openoffice.org2 openoffice.org2-l10n openoffice.org2-amd64 openoffice.org2-helpcontent openoffice.org-debian-files
* Kamion looks forward to a meeting with an orbiting mdz
<JaneW> Kinnison: sure... but what does that mean?
<mdz_> so it's unlikely that I'll be able to make it at the scheduled time
<Kamion> doko: queued, thanks
<mdz_> we can either adjust the time, or move to a different day
<Kamion> JaneW: the archive was in "you can check out any time, but you can never leave" mode - i.e. we couldn't remove packages
<JaneW> Kinnison: you can check out but you can never leave?
<JaneW> heh ok
<ogra> heh
<JaneW> good guess ;)
<doko> mdz_ we can bargain, if we change the next 3am meeting ;-)
<Kinnison> Kamion: the source for 2.6.15-14 looks like it's pendingremoval too
<Kinnison> Kamion: so things look good on that front
<JaneW> so the suggestions was to move next weeks meeting to same time same place the following day - i.e. Friday
<Kinnison> JaneW: 1400 UTC Friday?
<JaneW> yes at 14:00 UTC
<mdz_> infinity: I think you get the worst end of that; how does it work for you?
<Kamion> Kinnison: good stuff, should take effect this evening then right?
<JaneW> It's not ideal, but the alternative is Thursday night time
<Kinnison> Kamion: pretty much, yes. one day after datemadepending
* Kamion parsed that as "date-ma-depending". whose ma?
* Kinnison grins
<infinity> mdz_: Well, it puts me at Saturday morning, which kinda sucks.. :/
<sivang> I just want to let you guys know that after recovering from realizing HUB will not get included in main for dapper ;-) I continued full steam as much as time allows me with my dayjob, and it's coming nicely. Backup procedure is almost done (GUI + everything) , and Restore should come after re-using most of the already done backup bits. if it continues as it has for the last couple of days, I will have some to release soon. I apologize for the p
<infinity> Oh, no... Wait... Not Saturday morning, just 1am on Saturday.
<infinity> mdz_: I guess I can cope with that.
<Mithrandir> infinity: you'll only be slightly tipsy after a trip to the pub? :-)
<infinity> Something along those lines perhaps, yes. :)
<infinity> I'll write my summary before I go out for the evening. :)
<infinity> (Unless drunken summaries are everyone's cup of tea)
<Kinnison> this week I have been mostly drinking.....
<mdz_> sivang: is that in dapper now?
<JaneW> infinity: thanks for understanding :)
<JaneW> mdz_: ok so 14:00 UTC next friday it is?
<Kinnison> cool
<sivang> mdz_: not yet. but will get uploaded to universe, in your approval or MOTU lead, when I think it's presentable to users.
<seb128> JaneW: you just want to move to friday for next week or for "next weeks"?
<Kinnison> Are we done? (my machine is getting very militant about me taking a rest break :-)
<infinity> JaneW: Hey, if having it Friday nght / Saturday morning is a license for me to show up to a meeting drunk (for the first time in my professional career), who am I to complain? ;)
<JaneW> seb128: yes just for that one meeting, because mdz_  will be travelling at that time on Thurs
<infinity> seb128: Just for the next week.  If it was every week, I'd strike.
<seb128> oh, k
<JaneW> Kinnison: ditto
<ogra> mdz_, is it clear now that sparc will be a supported arch ? i got offered some sparc supporting patches for ltsp
<mdz_> sivang: any particular reason not to have uploaded it yet?
<mdz_> sivang: well, up to you I guess.  better to do the development in Ubuntu than in private if you expect to submit it for the desktop
<ogra> (which i would only risk to include if we officially want to support it)
<sivang> mdz_: yes, the burning to cd bit needs to be finished still, as this was one of my major goals in this project, I don't feel it's worhty to get uploaded before it provides this functionality smootly.
<mdz_> ok, I think we're wrapped then
<sivang> mdz_: all other backup solutions lack this functionality, it's important to me to have it in before a user can test it.
<mdz_> thanks, everyone
<pitti> thanks folks
* infinity calls it a day.
<fabbione> ogra: sparc is not officially supported. It is your call to accept/reject the patches
<JaneW> thanks everyone
* dholbach gets a coffee
* mvo goes for breakfirst now
<dholbach> thanks guys
<dholbach> *wave*
* pitti waves and dives back into bug triage
<sivang> mdz_: you mean, to get help from others? 
<seb128> mvo: what are you going to break? :)
<ogra> fabbione, oki ... i guess then i'll wait for dapper+1 it would get us anyway only support for sparc clients on sparc servers ;)
* mvo kicks seb128
<seb128> mvo: don't tell me you will change gtk soname without changing the package name :p
<seb128> mvo: utch!
* mvo kicks seb128 again
* iwj goes back to sleep for a bit.  See you all later ...
<sivang> seb128: hehe
* dholbach hugs mvo and seb128
<fabbione> ogra: up to you
<seb128> mvo: outside, NOW
<fabbione> ogra: as sparc ported i don't really care about LTSP on sparc.. i don't even have the hw to test it.. 
* ogra wants a webcam in the K&K
<fabbione> ogra: but you might check how intrusive the patches are
<ogra> fabbione, not much, but i cant test them either ... and i dont want them to go in untested
<infinity> mdz_: Still idling?
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-03-15
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14  Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status |
<phanatic> hi people
<licio> hi phanatic 
<sistpoty> hiho
<sistpoty> anyone present for motu-meeting?
* phanatic is here, but not (yet) a MOTU :)
<sistpoty> at least /me is not alone ;)
<sistpoty> let's wait a few minutes... hopefully some more ppl. will come in
* netzmeister is here, but not (yet) a MOTU too
<phanatic> seems to be a meeting for wannabes :)
<sistpoty> hehe
<netzmeister> *g*
<Tonio_> hello all
<netzmeister> hi
<Megant> I'm here too I think ;)
<sistpoty> ok, do we want to start with the meeting or wait a few more minutes and hope some more ppl. will drop by?
<sistpoty> let's just start with the meeting
<sistpoty> ok, everybody please state your names for the minutes
* sistpoty is StefanPotyra
* phanatic is SzilveszterFarkas
* Burgwork is Corey Burger (who will lurk)
* ogra is OliverGrawert (watching from a distance)
* Tonio_ is Anthony Mercatante
* tseng is Brandon Hale (watching less than ogra)
<sistpoty> as always the first question: anyone volunteering to do the minutes?
<sistpoty> ok, then I'll be doing the minutes...
<sistpoty> first (and only) point on the agenda: short introduction to the new workflow-tool
<sistpoty> I hope you noticed, that I hacked up the merge-list to support a list who is working on a pacakage
<sistpoty> you can find this list at http://revu.tauware.de/~sistpoty/MoM/wip.py
<sistpoty> it works pretty simple: you file a bug with a title with "accepted work" in it and assign it to universe-bugs or motu-reviewers and it should pop up in the list
<sistpoty> if you mark a bug as "fix released" or "rejected", it should vanish from the list again
<sistpoty> (and imo the title "accepted work" is pretty silly, but I didn't get better proposals *g*)
<sistpoty> any comments/questions/thoughts about this?
<sistpoty> ok, that was all from the agenda... any other business?
<Burgwork> sistpoty, UI comment. Would be nice if you list the persons IRC nick
<Burgwork> maybe link to their wiki page
<sistpoty> Burgwork: ok, will try to figure this from the bug-mails... 
<Burgwork> otherwise, very cool
<sistpoty> Burgwork: thx... seems like I need to parse the +text page to find out the LP-account and find out the nick from the account-page 
<sistpoty> ok, still anything else, that we should discuss?
<Burgwork> ouch, does LP not have an XML-RPC interface
<Burgwork> ?
<sistpoty> Burgwork: yes, but tiber isn't whitelisted (yet)... so I can't use that :(
<sistpoty> ok, if we have nothing more to discuss... what should be the date and time for the next meeting?
<sistpoty> (and did I mention, that I'm a little bit disappointed that nobody seems to be interested in a meeting?)
<raphink> wow, yet another 2-people MOTU meeting it seems
<sistpoty> raphink: yes
<raphink> (sorry I was having dinner)
<raphink> (haven't seen my parents in a long time so can't really miss such a time ;))
<sistpoty> np... 
<raphink> sistpoty: from what I see, lately there is no big big work to do in universe
<raphink> it's mostly bug fixing
<raphink> and especially focusing on main, even for MOTUs
<raphink> since it's the most important part
<raphink> so it's quite understandable that there's no big deal to discuss in a MOTU meeting
<raphink> such as merges/syncs or REVU
<raphink> which are supposed to be quite off now
<raphink> do't you think?
<sistpoty> well, yes, true in some way... but /me just remembers the "old" times, where meetings were almost always crowded ;)
<sistpoty> but OTOH since I'm writing today's minutes, I don't mind, if there is not much to discuss :)
<raphink> well it'll be crowded again in 2 months I'm sure
<sistpoty> :)
<raphink> when we'll have dapper out
<sistpoty> then I'd suggest to defer the date/time of the next meeting to ML (or another poll)... what do you think?
<raphink> and people will begin to say this app, and that other one, are missing in it
<raphink> and will get to package, etc.
<raphink> :)
<raphink> hmm sure
<sistpoty> ok :)
<raphink> I guess if the two of us agree it's a large majority?
<sistpoty> *g*
<raphink> hehe
<raphink> hehe
<sistpoty> anything else?
<sistpoty> ...3
<sistpoty> ...2
<raphink> :)
<sistpoty> ...1
<sistpoty> meeting closed... kthxbye ;)
<sistpoty> wow, I guess this was the shortest motu-meeting since I've been around *g*
<raphink> :)
<Tonio_> re
<Tonio_> sorry, I was disturb by neiborhood
<raphink> too late tonio
<Tonio_> raphink: meeting over ? 
<raphink> lol
<Tonio_> hehe, okay
<raphink> the meeting is over
<sistpoty> Tonio_: yes... was kinda short this time ;)
<raphink> well when you're two people with no agenda
<Tonio_> well sounds logic, I personnaly spend about 90% of my freetime on main
<raphink> what do you do for a meeting?
<raphink> Tonio_: exactly what I said
<raphink> Tonio_: the main work right now is bugfixing, esp. in main
<Tonio_> raphink: I know, we work together and have generally the same opinion on this :)
<raphink> so we don't have merges/syncs or REVU to deal with 
<raphink> so there's no big deal in universe
<sistpoty> seems like /me is one of the few MOTUs who don't work on main atm
<raphink> hence nothing to say in a MOTU meeting
<Tonio_> raphink: yep, and focussing on the desktop (for me)
<raphink> except : hey guys! having a good time?
<raphink> :)
<raphink> sistpoty: :)
<Tonio_> sistpoty: I must say I don't really work as a motu actually
<Tonio_> I'm focussing on the kde desktop configuration and simplification
<raphink> sistpoty: I think I'm going for main on tuesday, although I'm pretty sure to not be taken in ;)
<sistpoty> hehe
<Tonio_> not a motu job, but well, someone needed for this so :)
<raphink> Tonio_: in the upcoming days, I'll be testing Kubuntu Dapper on PPC and trying to fix things around on this arch. 
<Tonio_> raphink: "ce qui ne te tue pas te rend plus fort"
<sistpoty> well, I'm not really doing much work right now as well, since I'm moving end of next week to a new flat (which keeps me busy)
<raphink> Tonio_: hehe :)
<raphink> sistpoty: oh nice :)
<Tonio_> raphink: Ithink nobody died during a TB
<raphink> Tonio_: not yet
<Tonio_> raphink: "il y a un dbut a tout"
<Tonio_> et aussi :
<raphink> Tonio_: but nobody tried to apply with such a short history in Ubuntu as mine ;)
<Tonio_> "il faut toujours une excfeption pour confirmer la rgle"
<Tonio_> raphink: be ready ^^
<raphink> oui
<raphink> Tonio_: pour l'instant j'ai t une bonne exception aux rgles : REVU, MOTU, tiber admin...
<Tonio_> raphink: true
<raphink> je fais exception 
<raphink> alors je peux tenter ma chance
<Tonio_> evidemment
<raphink> pour continuer
<raphink> ;)
<raphink> :)
<raphink> je gagne, je rejoue
<raphink> lol
<Tonio_> hehe
<raphink> sorry, the kubuntu french team meeting just began ;)
<raphink> lol
<Tonio_> ;)
<raphink> we're almost as numerous as the MOTU meeting ;)
<Tonio_> tiens raphink je vais pitet recruter un nouveau packageur :)
<Tonio_> un bouffeur de grenouilles
<phanatic> quite understandable :)
<raphink> qui?
<Tonio_> http://www.freetux.net/
<Tonio_> phanatic: sorry :)
<phanatic> np :)
<Tonio_> raphink: regarde les commentaires concernant le post sur les repos persos
* sdquinn thought the docteam meeting was in here at 2100 UTC today
<sdquinn> or was that last week..
<raphink> Tonio_: ah non tu me voles pas mes vedettes hein?
<sdquinn> yep, last week. i apologize.
<Tonio_> raphink: t'as vu les commentaires ? apparement ca en impose grave une adresse ubuntu
<Tonio_> c'est pas bien compliqu a obtenir pourtant
<mkrufky> you werent kidding... this IS the french meeting now, isnt it?  ;-)
<minghua> hello, is the meeting over already?
<Tonio_> mkrufky: hehe
<mkrufky> oh well... maybe next time :-P
<sistpoty> minghua: yes... was very short today
<minghua> sistpoty: oh okay, sorry for missing it
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14  Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status |
<raphink> hehe clair Tonio_ :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-03-17
<jsimp2006> hello
<jsgotangco> brb
<onkarshinde> When is the meeting supposed to start?
<ajmitch> which one?
<Seveas> first meeting in the schedule is tuesday
<onkarshinde> Oops. I really missed the date
<Whatsisname> not till the 14th\
<sivang> hi all
<cusco> hi
<Seveas> test
<kbrooks> Seveas, hi,.
<Seveas> hi
<kbrooks> Seveas, whats new?
<highvoltage> Seveas: didn't work :/
<Seveas> I'm testing something - didn't work indeed
<highvoltage> :P
<Seveas> test
<Seveas> great
<kbrooks> Seveas, are you in #ubuntu-desktop 
<Seveas> yes
<Seveas> hmm
* Seveas poke
<Seveas> ok, test successful 
<highvoltage> Seveas: you're starting to sound like someone who found a new irssi theme :)
<Seveas> nope
<Seveas> I expect quite some people in the tuesday meetings and am preparing for measures in case it goes wrong
<Chousuke> hmm :)
<Mez> Seveas, how do you make that smily ?
<Seveas> Mez, x-chat autoreplace
<Mez> ah
<Mez> lol
<Mez> it doesnt do it for me
<kbrooks> Seveas, 
<kbrooks> Mez, 
<Seveas> kbrooks, ?
<kbrooks> a ubuntu faq entry recommends the marillat repo
<Seveas> hrm
<Seveas> BAD
<Mez> BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD
<Seveas> it was also present in the Ubuntu book
<kbrooks> "How can I do Flash, Java or mp3 ?"
* Mez slaps a lil
<kbrooks> this one.
<Seveas> kbrooks, URL?
<kbrooks> search for it.
<jsgotangco> Seveas, it was???
<kbrooks> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq 
<Seveas> jsgotangco, yes
<jsgotangco> crap
<Seveas> in one of jonos chapters
<jsgotangco> we have -ugly
<kbrooks>  search for that without the quotes
<jsgotangco> ah so its jono's write up
<Seveas> kbrooks, poke heno / Henrik Nilsen Omma 
<jsgotangco> i would be shocked if it was corey's
<jsgotangco> heh
<Seveas> that should be corrected asap
<kbrooks> Seveas, poke him? ... k
<kbrooks> wheres he
<jsgotangco> or send email
<jsgotangco> henrik@ubuntu.com
<kbrooks> k.
<kbrooks> i'll do.
<kbrooks> What ubuntu book?
<Seveas> official Ubuntu book currently beign written
<Seveas> my comment on the marillat thing was "NONONONONON, bad jono, no cookie!"
<kbrooks> dont understand.
<kbrooks> a ubuntu book?
<jsgotangco> kbrooks, there's an official ubuntu book coming out in time of dapper's release
<kbrooks> show me
<jsgotangco> it'll be released in a free doc license
<kbrooks> jsgotangco, show me!!!
* jsgotangco turned down the offer to be a technical reviewer citing busy schedules
<Seveas> Me is reviewing appendix A today
<jsgotangco> ah cool
<kbrooks> Seveas, show me the book.
<Seveas> it's not out yet
<kbrooks> Seveas, i'd like to preview it...
<Seveas> well, you can't 
<Seveas> I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to forward what I received and thus I won't
<kbrooks> why>
<jsgotangco> its currently being on technical review
<kbrooks> you suck. :P
<Seveas> language...
<jsgotangco> kbrooks, doing that won't help
<kbrooks> what is the ubuntu book about, anyways?
<Seveas> waht do you think?
<Seveas> Ubuntu of course..
<jsgotangco> we;re not even in the right channel to discuss this lol
<kbrooks> Seveas, and why the ubuntu bok? theres good documentation, no?
<Seveas> A book is good
<kbrooks> ok.
<kbrooks> *drops it*
<kbrooks> anyway, about those nmeetings on tuesday.
<kbrooks> why the community meeting?
<jsgotangco> email
<Seveas> because of the proposed delat
<kbrooks> jsgotangco, what?
<Seveas> delay*
<kbrooks> jsgotangco, i sent a email to him already.
<jsgotangco> kbrooks, no, the proposed delays are explained by mark on email
<kbrooks> i saw the mailing list entry for it.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 09:00 and 18:00 UTC: Community Meeting - see: http://tinyurl.com/pefoq | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<oasick> hi
<sorush20> hi
<sorush20> this is for meetings only but ask.. 
<oasick> sorry for my english.. i'm spanish
<oasick> xD
<oasick> i recently read that ubuntu dapper, probably out last six weeks..
<Seveas> oasick, please see the url in the topic
<Seveas> (the tinyurl url)
<oasick> thanxs seveas
<oasick> ;)
<sorush20> how do I find out which meetings to bring up my issues up on? 
<sorush20> bye guys
<enyc> meep moop
<Eleaf> yes
<Eleaf> Is that one meeting still planned for the 14th?
<Fujitsu> The two about the delay?
<Eleaf> yes
<Fujitsu> Check the topic.
<Eleaf> lol
<Fujitsu> 0900 and 1800.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Eleaf] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mmmhm'ar 09:00 and 18:00 UTC: Community Meeting - see: http://tinyurl.com/pefoq | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<Eleaf> what?
<Eleaf> sorry, my mouse was in the topic..
<Eleaf> ok thanks Fujitsu 
<Fujitsu> Mmmhm'ar
<Eleaf> oh lol
<Eleaf> I'll fix it
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Eleaf] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 09:00 and 18:00 UTC: Community Meeting - see: http://tinyurl.com/pefoq | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<Eleaf> ;)
<Fujitsu> Better :)
<cusco> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=143334
<cusco> god damn
<cyphase> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Administrator_root_password_readable_in_cleartext_on_Ubuntu_Breezy
<Eleaf> yes
<Eleaf> I just pointed that out to others as well
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-03-18
<Fujitsu> This is a bit not good.
<kbrooks> ?
<Fujitsu> If the media get hold of this...
<mordof> why didn't they put encryption on it??
<Fujitsu> d-i records all of the answers in the answers file. Raw.
<Fujitsu> However, fixes have been released.
<Fujitsu> 8 hours between bug report and fix. Pretty good, I think.
<Eleaf> Fujitsu, where are the fixes?
<Fujitsu> Eleaf, breezy-security, I believe.
<Eleaf> hmm
<Eleaf> I haven't noticed the update
<Fujitsu> Strange.
<FunnyLookinHat> Sure, it's good that they fixed that quickly.  But to have that at all??  wow,
<Fujitsu> It was an oversight in Breezy only that appeared in the release, and apparently wasn't in the preview... Very interesting.
<FunnyLookinHat> I think it's things such as this that make me feel the same way as mark shuttleworth on the proposed 6week extension
<Fujitsu> Yes.
<Fujitsu> Exactly.
<Fujitsu> Polish.
<Fujitsu> Breezy was rushed!
<FunnyLookinHat> I can't wait for dapper   ^_^
<Stormx2> Well you'll have to
<Stormx2> and an extra 6 weeks by the looks of things
* Kyral shrugs
<Kyral> It will be worth it :D
<Stormx2> :P ah ha
<Kyral> Oh wait...
<Kyral> my desktop already runs Dapper :P
<Eleaf> lol
<Stormx2> I say they just release dapper on 20th april as a "semi-release", then the fully fledged dapper drake 6 weeks later, if thats what mr. shuttleworth things is necessery
<Kyral> It just needs a clean reinstall from all the crap I do to it lol
<Eleaf> lol.
<Whatsisname> I just want gnome 2.14 lol
<Whatsisname> one of these days I need to plead with the ubuntu designers to include a feature I think would be really awesome
<Fujitsu> What is said feature?
<Fujitsu> I've been running Dapper here since Flight 3, and it's been absolutely stable...
<Whatsisname> modifiy the kernel to allow for dual legged machines
<Kyral> ...
<Whatsisname> two keyboards, two mice, two video cards, with one box
<Whatsisname> two workstations on a single machine
<Kyral> KVM?
<Whatsisname> no, not kvm
<Whatsisname> run two instances of X
<Fujitsu> multiseat?
<Whatsisname> one on each set of kvm
<Whatsisname> yeah multiseat i suppose is another way to describe it
<Fujitsu> It can be done pretty easily.
<Fujitsu> Using the multiseat package.
<Whatsisname> i've tried it before and it was wonky as hell
<Whatsisname> maybe they've lately fixed it but I haven't heard of it yet
<Fujitsu> OK.
<Fujitsu> I've heard of people using it, on #ubuntu./
<Whatsisname> i also know theres commercial packages
<Whatsisname> it also usually has problems when you aren't in X
<Whatsisname> there was once a kernel patch for 2.4 that worked great but nothing for 2.6
<andrewPCT> blist
<andrewPCT> arr
<andrewPCT> woops
<BlueT_> expecting the meeting tomorrow.... :)
<RAPIST> !rape
<Project318> me2
<RAPIST> no
<RAPIST> so lets talk about dapper
<RAPIST> is it filled with porn?
<Ju> ?
<RAPIST> huh
<RAPIST> what?
<dholbach> RAPIST: please find another channel to talk about that.
<RAPIST> wat u say?
<RAPIST> oh
<RAPIST> ok
<RAPIST> sorry
<dholbach> Thanks.
<cached> Will there be a meeting at a different time?
<Ju> cached: /topic
<Seveas> cached, please see the topic for meeting times
<Seveas> and please keep quiet in here when there is no meeting - it clutters up the logs
<cached> What is meant by Technical Board?
<Seveas> cached, http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard
<cached> Thank you, Seveas
<leon_b> exit
<ReadTopicForTime> "<leon_b> exit" well that was interesting
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-03-19
<enyc> meep
<enyc> ?meethings here at 0900 and 1800 GMT(utc) r.e. Potontion 6-week-delay for dapper?
<Seveas> yes - that is 2 and 11 hours from now
<nalioth> Seveas: that long?
<Seveas> nalioth, :
<enyc> 07:15 here (gmt) apparntly ;-)
<Seveas> Ubugtu, prod
<whiprush> howdy folks
<jsgotangco> hopefully my meeting ends just in time for the council meeting too
<jsgotangco> just in case im not, i'm in favor of the delay :)
<enyc> ?cauncil meeting?
<Seveas> jsgotangco, it's not a council meeting but a gemeral community meeting
<Seveas> CC meeting is next week
<jsgotangco> ahh
<enyc> ?CC meeting?
<jsgotangco> i still vote nonetheless
<jsgotangco> heh
* enyc confused!
<Seveas> please be quiet until the meetinf do we don't clutter up the logs
<lilo> better
<nalioth> lilo: dja have to adjust the cushions?
<lilo> nalioth: I ended up in a little tiny window 8)
<nicholaspaul> its ok, I'll stand.
<lilo> nalioth: had to try again 8)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+tf #ubuntu-overflow]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by Seveas
<Seveas> @config channel plugins.bugtracker.bugsnarfer False
<G0SUB> soumyadip: :)
<soumyadip> G0SUB, back
<G0SUB> good
<G0SUB> robotgeek
<G0SUB> Gloubiboulga
<Gloubiboulga> hey G0SUB 
<robotgeek> hi G0SUB 
<G0SUB> hello!
<ranf> hi
<robotgeek> poningru: in an hour? date --utc
<poningru> arr?
<Seveas> 
<poningru> yaarrrrr
<JaneW> Seveas: nice
<Frogzoo>                #
<onkarshinde> Is it 9:00 UTC?
<Seveas> no, it's 8:40 UTC
<freeflying> JaneW: hi
<EricNeon> hi all
<breizhtux> hi all
<JaneW> hi freeflying :)
<JaneW> 20 mins to go
<Seveas> please remain silent until the meeting starts so we don't clutter up the logs
<jsgotangco> let's wait for the meeting so that we wont fill up the log
<Treenaks> (let's start logging once the meeting starts)
<Frogzoo> 2nd'd
<minus273> hi all
<BlueT_> hi all :)
<Chousuke> hmm.
<atie> hi all
<cmug> all hi
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Today (Tuesday Mar. 14) 09:00 and 18:00 UTC - Meeting about the proposed delay of Dapper - see http://tinyurl.com/pefoq
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by Seveas
<cmug> i say release it earlier
<Spec> Hello.
* Seveas sets mode #ubuntu-meeting -trolls
<Seveas> this meeting is supposed to be constructive - any disruptive actions will instantly be rewarded with a ban
<onkarshinde> Seveas: :-X
<delmonico> good morning from germany btw :)
<rob> oh, just in time, lucky I checked!
* vuntz_ hugs Seveas
* vuntz_ hugs seb128 too :-)
<atie> Seveas, what is agenda?
<Seveas> atie, there's only one item
<seb128> hi
* pitti waves to the crowd
* jsgotangco waves too
<pitti> hello Ubunteros :)
<bustacap> you got the "crowd" part right..
* whiprush also waves
<Seveas> hi pitti
<pitti> bustacap: hey, wide participation is what this meeting is all about :)
<MistaED> hey this meeting starts in 7 mins right? or do i suck at working out UTC?
<dAndy> only 132 peeps, way less than #ubuntu for example
<Seveas> MistaED, correct
<pitti> MistaED: right
<MistaED> cool
<delmonico> MistaED: yeah, timezones can be bitchy ;)
<Seveas> date --utc is your friend
<jsgotangco> whiprush: go to sleep
<jsgotangco> heh
<bustacap> hehe
<whiprush> jsgotangco: I am on a plane tomorrow so had to stay up for this one. :D
<delmonico> I got a little python script for my regular timezoning needs
<jsgotangco> hopefully we don't end up in a moderated chat
<rob> delmonico, date --utc
<delmonico> date --utc is quicker for utc however ;)
<rob> heh
<rob> yep
<Seveas> jsgotangco, that may happen if it gets too noisy
* lilo waves
<jsgotangco> Seveas: i agree do as needed
<Seveas> we're prepared for everything - even lilo has been hired as security guard ;)
* HedgeMage waves to lilo, rob, nalioth, and other people she knows
<lilo> hehe
* Lappi says hi
<christel> :)
<jsgotangco> Seveas: i guess moderate it first for the first person to speak
<lilo> Seveas: assuming I can keep my eyelids propped open with toothpicks *grin*
<Spec> (www.timeanddate.com can convert from UTC to whatever)
<poningru> rofl
<HedgeMage> Seveas: nah, lilo's the mediator, I'm the bouncer... I'm meaner ;)
<Seveas> hehe
<lilo> page me if you need me, and otherwise I'll just watch whenever my eyes are open :)
<rob> lilo, I'm around :)
<lilo> yay :)
<Seveas> we should be able to handle it all ourselves
* lilo nods
<Seveas> and several others of your staff are here too ;)
* lilo bows and &
<NoOneInParticula> Greetings all
<jsgotangco> cheers
<konsu|187> good morning everybody
<onkarshinde> G0SUB: I guess you should say something on behalf of India Local team.
<G0SUB> onkarshinde: yes, I will. when needed
<zakame> hi all
<Frogzoo> okey dokey...
<Spec> so, uhh, what're we waiting on? :p
<Seveas> the person who caused all of this
<BlueT_> 30s
<enyc> Spec: Time for meeting! ;-)
<akai> i guess it'd be mark?
<EricNeon> be ready
<cmug> 20sec still
<elkbuntu> that would be logical
<enyc> sabdfl
<zakame> lol
<Spec> so you think sabdfl will log in, in exactly...10 seconds? :p
<jsgotangco> oh boy
<Seveas> please be patient
<cmug> oh lord I cant wait
<Seveas> Mark will arrive shortly
* akai taps his watch
<JaneW> sabdfl will be here in a minute
<BlueT_> lets ready for rock N roll
<akai> Frodo: You're late.
<zakame> be patient :) that's just one `i' more than `patent'
<Seveas> BlueT_, let me remind you of the mode -trolls that's in this channel
<Spec> What country has the largest presence here right now?
<jsgotangco> it doesn't matter
<Seveas> Spec, please keep irrelevant discussions out of this channel
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o JaneW]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o pitti]  by Seveas
<cmug> *trembletremble*
<Seveas> Mr. Murphy seems to like us - we need to wait a bit for sabdfl to show up - please be patient everyone
<JaneW> sorry for the delay everyone, sabdfl is just sorting out a connection problem. 
<zakame> Seveas++
<cmug> Does sabdfl run Dapper?
<fabbione> hello
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o fabbione]  by Seveas
<Seveas> welcome fabbione 
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> let's make this clear from now
<fabbione> anything that is OFFTOPIC = kick/ban from the channel
<Seveas> +1
<fabbione> it's an important discussion
<fla|office> ?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o ogra]  by Seveas
<jsgotangco> cool
<fabbione> and we need to keep it on track
<seb128> hi fabbione :)
<Mithrandir> it'd also help if people would refrain from joining and parting and joining again.
<enyc> is there a wriiten down FAQ ro agenda for this meeting other than sabdfl's original email?
<Frogzoo> plus this could get noisy enough without back chat 
<JaneW> yes, please be constructive, or rather keep quiet.
<cmug> hide parts/joins from your client
<Frogzoo> enyc: see banner
<Seveas> May I add to that: if this goes pear shaped: the channel will be set to +mi and everyone can follow it in #ubuntu-overflow
<dholbach> enyc: no
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o mdz]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o dholbach]  by Seveas
<mdz> good morning, everyone
<mdz> sabdfl is inbound
<JaneW> thanks mdz
<zakame> hi mdz , dholbach 
<mdz> some network problems here at the hotel
<robotgeek> morning mdz 
<seb128> hey mdz
<enyc> Frog/dhol: obay ;-)
<ogra> hi matt
<cmug> for irssi, /ignore #ubuntu-meeting +JOINS +PARTS
<sabdfl> sorry all
<sabdfl> my apologies, hotel network issues
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o sabdfl]  by Seveas
<jsgotangco> cheers
<Seveas> Good morning Mark
<Seveas> Everyone please be quiet, sabdfl has the stage
<sabdfl> ok, i'm sure there will be a lot of comments
<sabdfl> let's try and streamline the process as follows
<sabdfl> let's 
<sabdfl> if you have a comment on the proposal, please indicate that
<sabdfl> just by saying "/me has comment"
<sabdfl> seveas, you keep track of everyone who has given that indication
<zakame> hello sabdfl 
<sabdfl> then, if someone says basically what you intend to, please don't say "me too"
<sabdfl> we want to hear all the comments first, then discuss
<sabdfl> i'll keep a note of the new ideas
<sabdfl> and chair the discussion
<sabdfl> ok, everyone who has a distinct comment, please indicate that now
* Seveas has several comments
* G0SUB has a comment
* jsgotangco has comment
* ogra has a comment
<sabdfl> seveas, you keep track, and will give each person a turn. seveas, go last
* enyc has comment/query area
<Seveas> will do
* Frogzoo has comment
<sabdfl> ok, is that everybody?
* dholbach has a comment
<Seveas> ok, let's do this first come first serve - if anyone who has not yet spoken has a comment - pm me
* pschulz01 has comment
* poningru has a comment/query
* bustacap has comment
<sabdfl> ok, good idea seveas
<Seveas> G0SUB, please state your comment briefly
<sabdfl> those of you who have comments, please pre-type them, three lines of 100 chars max, so they can come in quickly when its your turn
<sabdfl> if you need more, that's fine, just don't flood and get yourself bounced by freenode
<G0SUB> okay, if there is a six week delay in dapper, it will help us in itegrating all the IndLinux work into Dapper, especially those OOo2 fixes, and SCIM work which is very recent
<sabdfl> gosub, go ahead
<sabdfl> when your comment is done, say "done"
<G0SUB> and we'll be able to do a good amount of testing
<Seveas> sabdfl, do you want to discuss all comments as they come up?
<G0SUB> so that will help us in getting excellent Indic support into Dapper
<G0SUB> done
<sabdfl> Seveas: no, i'm tracking issues, will chair a discussion of them once we have them on the table
<Seveas> ok, thank you G0SUB 
<Seveas> ogra, you're up
<ogra> the german linux magazine has the following headline this edition: "problem child SuSE, missing drivers, missing features, release postponed, is it much good?"
<ogra> i fear the bad press we'll get
* pitti has comment
<ogra> (additionally i'm sad because edubuntu is on schedule, but that doesnt belong here :) )
* fabbione has comment
* seb128 has comment
<ogra> done...
<sabdfl> thanks ogra
<Seveas> people with comments: please /msg me to get added to the list
<Seveas> jsgotangco, you're next
<jsgotangco> i would like to comment about the way we use terminologies in our repositories, during the g-a-i manual creation, we used several, like channel, section, category, what not, we have discussed this before in -desktop and we'd like to have a concrete title to be used all throughout. I also support the dealy for fixes to SCIM especially for CJK and we're improving at a very fast rate everyday and 6 weeks more would be helpful.
<jsgotangco> done
<Seveas> thanks Jerome
<Seveas> enyc, 
* enyc thinks that there will be persons who think/wonder why the _release_ itself needs te be delayed in order to facilitate getting a certificaton/similar... 
* enyc may be missing something important I didnt understand ;-)             
<Seveas> Please remember to say 'done' when you finished your comment
<enyc> done ;-)
<Seveas> and don't expect an 'ack' if you /msg me that you have a comment - I will see it
<Seveas> Frogzoo, you're up
<Frogzoo> just like to say that slippages are hardly unknown in this industry. Furthermore, the delay may actually help raise Ubuntu's profile with discussion on /. etc so I don't see the delay as anything but positive - provided this is a once off, and this slippage isn't seen as setting a precedent for further slippages in the future
<Frogzoo> done
<Seveas> thank you Frogzoo 
<Seveas> dholbach, poke
<dholbach> I speak as member of the Desktop team and since we're going to support the desktop VERY long, we'd be happy to get get GNOME 2.14.2 in, which is scheduled for May 29th.
<dholbach> As part of the MOTU team I thin that Universe will profit to a high extent from the delayed process, it will give us more time to fix the ~15000 packages.
<dholbach> done
<Seveas> pschulz01, you're next
<pschulz01> Re. Certification - does this include hardware vendors? I would support the delay if it ment that Dapper is supported by OEMs and would allow them to supply machines with Dapper pre-installed world wide. 
<pschulz01> done
<Seveas> thank you pschulz01 
<Seveas> poningru
<poningru> my query is is the delay simply wither this will all be polish or will it be actually work as in will the uvf be extended, will doc freeze be extended etc.?
<poningru>  comment: already stated
<Seveas> poningru, queries can be adressed later
<poningru> done
<Seveas> bustacap, you're next
<bustacap> if Dapper is going to be the first "enterprise" release of Ubuntu, will this mean that new apps and patches to existing apps will be integrated into the released version? if so, could the new features that may delay on-time release of Dapper be released as updates further down the track?
<bustacap> done
<Seveas> bustacap, that's irrelevant for this meeting
<Seveas> but thanks for the comment
<Seveas> Mithrandir, you're next
<Mithrandir> While having six more weeks available would have been a good thing, I believe we are so late in the cycle that those six weeks won't buy us very much.  We're past UVF, past FF, past UIF so there are only so many things which could be fixed in the available time.  Would we roll back freezes or what would happen?
<Mithrandir> (done)
<Seveas> thanks Tollef, pitti: you're up
<pitti> It doesn't need to be a '6 weeks or nothing' decision, right? Two weeks would help, too, and this wouldn't disturb dapper+1 so much
<pitti> done
<Seveas> delmonico, you're up
<delmonico> dholbach was faster about the universe fixing... done ;)
<Seveas> ok
<Seveas> seb128, 
<seb128> Seveas: sec, style typing 
<seb128> Usually we have a desktop rather good but lacking some polish and with some little annoyances at differences place that we don't tackle because we are too busy tackling "real" bugs. We are quite bug flooded at the moment too. Some extra delay would allow to make a much better cleanup job and ship an extra GNOME minor revision
<seb128> done
<Seveas> fabbione, you're up
<fabbione> I personally don't see the press as an issue. We did prove that we can deliver in time already 3 times and we can still do it for dapper. We are proving that we care even more about quality for a long support release. Let's rock and roll for dapper and screw slashdot.
<fabbione> My only concern is killing 2 weeks of shyness on each release after dapper to ge
<fabbione> t back on track, but i am sure we can manage that somehow, with a stronger commu
<fabbione> nity behind us, but still need to be taken into account.
<fabbione> done.
<Seveas> gaz00, you're next
<gaz00> 6 weeks is all fine and good with me, if it means that better QA can be done.  Another bug like the debconf one from the other day would be horrible for the public perception, especially after a 6 week delay on a predefined commitment.
<gaz00> You might be able to get a mulligan for the first time, but the bottom line was that it was out for 5 months before someone pointed it out.
<gaz00> done
<Seveas> thank you, JaneW you're up
<JaneW> My question is around the timings subsequent to this release. If we release late ,what happnes to the timing of the spec writing, dev cycle and release (and naming, can it still be 6.10?) of the next version?
<JaneW> also I was worried about bad press, but that's been mentioned before
<JaneW> done.
<Seveas> thanks Jane, nate_ you're next
<nate_> I'm for the delay in that it allows for the certs, which may increase the popularity of ubuntu.  My only concern is that if dapper doesn't deliver at the extended release date, that the extra publicity + failure in whatever aspects delayed the release, would = decrease in public opinion of Ubuntu and decrease it's widespread acceptance.  We must weigh this risk.
<nate_> done
<Seveas> FlannelKing, you're next
<Seveas> If I forgot anyone: pleas yell at me in a private message
<Seveas> FlannelKing, ?
<FlannelKing> Hoary's release was met with some animosity regarding whether it was 'finished' or not at the release, my concern is that if we don't delay, the same feeling of problem caused by cutting corners at the last minute will be in Breezy.  If we do delay, we have to be certain that we absolutely put out a clean product.  
<FlannelKing> With the increased coverage recently, I think getting this release to feel finished is key.
<FlannelKing> done.
<Seveas> thanks, robotgeek you're up
<robotgeek> Documentation wise, we are solid for Dapper already. But with some additional time, maybe translations of documentation could be provided at "release time". done
<Seveas> _mindspin you're up 
<_mindspin> oops, fast,
<_mindspin> for press relations, I would say that stickkoing too the truth is always the best
<_mindspin> and if the delay is for quality reasosn we only have to communicate it the right way
<_mindspin> done
<Seveas> thank you _mindspin 
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
<Seveas> dolson, you;re up
<sabdfl> for reference for newcomers
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Today (Tuesday Mar. 14) 09:00 and 18:00 UTC - Meeting about the proposed delay of Dapper - see http://tinyurl.com/pefoq and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
<Seveas> dolson, please state your comments briefly
<dolson> 6 weeks seems like an arbitrary number to me.. why exactly 6 weeks? also if there is a delay now, why not delay all future releases by 1 month, to allow a point release of GNOME X.X.1 or so? done
<Seveas> thanks Dana
<Seveas> there's no one on the list anymore except me
<sabdfl> go seveas
<whiprush> I pm
<Seveas> Postponing means losing the 6.04 name, which is already heavily used. A lot of documentation would need to be changed
<Seveas> There already are several post-release plans, I for one am having several tutorial sessions about Ubuntu planned in may, which are especially planned right after dapper release so we can hand out CD's
<Seveas> 6 weeks is almost 1/4 of the dapper+1 timeframe, not a small piece! This may lead to dapper+1 being postpned and I really don't think it's a good idea to postpone every release, keeping our release schedules close to gnome is a major benefit.
<Seveas> whiprush, sorry, go ahead
* whiprush has a comment, must have not gotten thru
<whiprush> When I talk about Ubuntu to people I say, "You don't get a seperate 'enterprise edition' and 'blow-up-in-your-face edition', you always get our best for every release." I am concerned that this will set a precedent for lopsidedness in future releases/expectations.
<sabdfl> anyone who did not get called by seveas and who pm's or who now has a comment, please say "i have a new comment"
<whiprush> I think in light of Fedora's move to 9 month cycles and opensuse's delays that we need to get it over with and make the case to upstream GNOME to move to a 9 month schedule and have Ubuntu just follow that. That's an extra 3 months of QA per future release, not just for Dapper. Done.
<Seveas> thanks Jorge, raphink-pbook you're up
<raphink-pbook> hmm ok
<raphink-pbook> my point is that we're very likely to integrate kde 3.5.2 in dapper
<raphink-pbook> since it'll be released probably this month
<raphink-pbook> I don't think we want it to be like kde was in breezy : too young to be stable
<raphink-pbook> on the othert hand, I think delaying by 6 weeks might be hard to get recent apps in Dapper
<raphink-pbook> unless we try and keep a very good UVF exception request policy
<raphink-pbook> I'm afraid we might get late on some major apps
<raphink-pbook> done
<sabdfl> seveas?
<Spec> i have a new comment
<Seveas> victory747, you're up
<victory747> I cannot currently recommend Ubuntu to any of my Chinese friends as Simplified Chinese is a mess in installation, font selection and substitution is ugly, and SCIM does not work out of the box.  kubuntu is a complete disaster.
<Seveas> sabdfl, several new comments waiting
<victory747> If Chinese is not fixed for Dapper, I still will not recommend it for my Chinese friends and colleagues.  China is a big enough potential market to delay to fix.  Done.
<Seveas> thank you
<Seveas> seb128, you're up
<seb128> rosetta has just imported dapper packages so we are lagging on translations at the moment, translators could probably use a delay
<seb128> done
<Seveas> robotgeek, go ahead
<robotgeek> about docus using the version, it is not a big deal as we use entities. it's ionly one change
<jordi> victory747: we're beating up abelcheung right now.
<robotgeek> done
<Seveas> jordi, please stay on topic
<Seveas> Frogzoo, you're up
<Frogzoo> I think the 6 month cycle is worth preserving - 2 releases a year will be well received in the corporate environment. As for the Dapper +1 issue, allowing the 6 weeks slip should mean a lower bar is set for the next release. Also, at this stage, new apps shouldn't be being added.
<Frogzoo> done
<Seveas> ok - according to my list these were all comments - raise your voice if you still have something to say
<sabdfl> ok, i take it that is the end of the comments?
<sabdfl> anybody who wanted to make a comment that has not been said, please speak now
<Seveas> nate_ go ahead
<sabdfl> nate_ has spoken already
<sabdfl> ok
<Seveas> he just msg'ed me that he has something else
<sabdfl> go ahead nate_, but nobody else should repeat
<nate_> Something to think about that Frogzoo just mentioned, is why are we delayed?  Have we shot too high?  Can we prevent this in the future?  Can we apply any of these lessons to the immediate release to cut down the release delay?
<nate_> done, and sorry :)
<ogra> gah
<Seveas> thanks nate_ 
<Seveas> sabdfl - the microphone is yours again
<ogra> lets wait for the sprint people to come online again
<ogra> he's off
<Seveas> hmm, right
<_mindspin> ;-)
<JaneW> oops
<enyc> hotel network problems again maybe -- how inconvinient!
<raphink-pbook> :'
* bustacap watches sabdfl bash a bellhop
<Seveas> as I said - Mr. Murphy oves us
<Frogzoo> it's a conspiracy !!
<Seveas> please stay calm everyone
<nate_> lol, don't panic
<jsgotangco> let's not disrupt our good start
<Chousuke> :)
<nate_> his dapper just took a crapper?
<zakame> hmm patience again ppl
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+m]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-m]  by Seveas
<JaneW> mvo/mdz and sabdfl are at the l10n sprint in a hotel, hence they are on a dodgy connection - sorry for the inconvenience. They will be back soon.
<Seveas> JaneW, next time pick a better hotel ;)
<zakame> awww
<dholbach> Seveas: all hotels' connections were a bit bumpy until now :)
<JaneW> Seveas: we tend to break them ;)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o mdz]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o mdz]  by dholbach
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o mvo]  by dholbach
<mdz> temporary outage on the hotel internet service here
<ogra> mdz, we're patient :)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o sabdfl]  by dholbach
<sabdfl> http://pastebin.co.uk/496
<sabdfl> sorry, hotel network was down for a while
<sabdfl> did we miss any discussion?
<nate_> sabdfl, need me to repost?
<Seveas> sabdfl, no we were quiet while you were gone
<enyc> sabdfl: not really
<raphink-pbook> sabdfl: we were waiting for you :)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> have a look at the paste
<sabdfl> i will start pulling out the major topics for discussion
<sabdfl> hmm...
<sabdfl> would it be better for me to run through and respond, and ask mdz to respond, to some of the specific questions?
<sabdfl> so we all have the same set of answers?
<Seveas> sabdfl, +1 on that
<sabdfl> then we can discuss the issues
<sabdfl> ok, briefly as i can
<sabdfl> G0SUB: +1  on IndLinux, but you will need to respect the new freeze deadlines
<sabdfl> we are working on l10n here in London with guys from China and Taiwan and Japan
<G0SUB> sabdfl: yes, I agree
<sabdfl> so it would be good to collaborate with them for any SCIM and lang-support changes you want, NOW
<sabdfl> mvo, abelcheung, jordi, daf are your contact points
<sabdfl> next
<G0SUB> sabdfl: ok, that's fine
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: agreed there are warts, happy to give direction and have you work to fix, respecting freeze deadlines
<jsgotangco> cheers we'll work on it
<sabdfl> enyc: LSB and other certifications affect kernel and libc, not possible to fix after release
<sabdfl> Mithrandir and others: your question is basically "what is slipping, just the release, or some other deadlines too?"
<sabdfl> will let mdz and tech board set new dates and deadlines, in summary, there is some room for new work, but not much
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: it's also a comment that I think it's too late in the cycle for the extension to give us the full benefit, but yes.
<enyc> sabdfl: ahh hrm... so delay needed to check the released version is certified as satisfactory...
<sabdfl> pitti: why 6 weeks? 2 weeks does not give us enough time to polish or fix bugs and get the new l10n work in, plus i'm concerned a little about installer testing feedback, and then we hit debconf
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: agreed, we have learned for the next dapper-style release, i think
<sabdfl> fabbione and others: asking what the impact on future releases will be
<sabdfl> *likely* to be some impact, spread over dapper+1 and dapper+2 to get us back to gnome dates
<sabdfl> gaz00: i hear you on the horrible root bug :-)
<sabdfl> whiprush: we have to figure out how to get the best of both six-month on-time releases, and these few long-term support releases
<gaz00> :)   Not that proper QA isn't assumed, but i just wanted to get it out there.  
<sabdfl> i agree we don't want to do fedora-style unsupported releases
<sabdfl> all our releases get support and 18 months of security, they are all deployable
<sabdfl> but it's worthus having the ability to do more stable AND less-stable releases
<sabdfl> dapper+1 will be a fun, bring-in-the-bling release, and as a result intrinsically less stable than dapper
<sabdfl> but having dapper lets us say to people who want super-stability "use dapper, we are laying the foundations for the next big wave here, and foundations are usually a bit dirty"
<Seveas> it'll be warty again ;)
<enyc> sounds sensible to me...
<sabdfl> victory747: getting chinese to work is one of the main goals of the 1l10n sprint which is a contributor to the delay, so i hope you will work with abelcheung to get it to work perfectly for you and your friends
<sabdfl> let me know in two weeks if dapper-in-chinese is not A+ grade for you, ok?
<sabdfl> alright
<sabdfl> those are the easy questions
<sabdfl> (as an aside, we are looking for input from the japanese community, so please contact jordi, daf or mvo)
<sabdfl> now we should look at the higher level issues
<abelcheung> sabdfl, victory747: looks like the chinese channel is 'activated' too, they are in #ubuntu-zh
<sabdfl> let's talk about the impact of the delay on the schedule - doc freeze, ui freeze, etc
<sabdfl> mdz, can you comment? ill chair
<mdz> do we have representatives from the doc and art teams here today?
<mdz> I'd want to confer with them about the details
* bustacap is part of doc team
* robotgeek is part of the doc team
* jsgotangco is docteam
<mdz> but the short answer is that we'll take advantage of the delay to allow additional time for dates which are scheduled relative to the final release date
<JaneW> mdz: so freezes already in place, remain so?
<mdz> JaneW: well, the localization changes require revisiting feature freeze, essentially
<jono> hey
<sabdfl> we some specific areas where we are willing to break freeze, like fontconfig (to accommodate chinese / japanese/ korean)
<mdz> but we'll treat it more as an exception than a reopening
<JaneW> mdz: oic
* jono knew he would be late
<JaneW> ok
<sabdfl> so, exceptions rather than a UVF shift
<Seveas> jono, please don't disrupt the discussions
<jono> Seveas, sorry
<mdz> bustacap,robotgeek,jsgotangco: if you have any specific feedback or needs regarding the revisions to come, please send them to me via email
<bustacap> perhaps some additions to certain pieces of doc will need to be made to detail the addition of support for chinese/japanese input..
<dholbach> I think the current UVF exception processes are nice and fast (as an answer to raphink's concern)
<bustacap> mdz: ok..
<mdz> I'll work out the details and send an announcement early next week or so
<JaneW> so will the name be 6.05/6.06 as the case my be?
<mdz> likewise for any other teams who are affected
<sabdfl> i expect some fluidity in SCIM, fontconfig, language-support etc as we push to the new l10n goals
<daf> people who want to coordinate on upcoming l10n changes are welcome to join us in #ubuntu-l10n
<sabdfl> JaneW, seveas: good point on the 6.04 name. we do need to change it, i'm leaning to 6-06.
<robotgeek> 666 :)
<Seveas> sabdfl, my concern is not just official documentation
<Seveas> '6.04' is already well-used
<mdz> the more help we can get from the community to get the localization improvements correct, the first time, the more time we will be able to spend on QA for dapper
<sabdfl> Seveas: i think we need to remain consistent in our story that the version numbers are year-and-month
<JaneW> agreed, however I don;t think the 6.04 can be a make/break decision here.
<jsgotangco> the doc strings are trivial to change on our side if ints needed
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: +1
<silbs> sabdfl: I think 6.06 is fine, but no reason to more to a "-"
<sabdfl> silbs: :-). I think the decimal interpretation of x.yy has caused some confusion, people want to know "when was 6.00 released"
<sabdfl> that's a separate discussion though
<sabdfl> the point for this discussion is the version should reflect release year and month, agreed
<Chousuke> Newcomers: http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log here is a running log of the discussion. It begins from few days prior to this meeting, when I joined this channel, so scroll down to find the actual meeting discussion. 
<sabdfl> if dates like UI freeze do get pushed back by TB, then they will not be pushed back for 6 weeks
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Today (Tuesday Mar. 14) 09:00 and 18:00 UTC - Meeting about the proposed delay of Dapper - see http://tinyurl.com/pefoq and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess - Live Log: http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log
<Whatsisname> isn't the "real deal" later today
<sabdfl> this means we will have long in-freeze time for translations, books (jono :-)) etc
<jono> :)
<Frogzoo> I'd prefer to stick with 6.04 - allowing the slippage to require extra work seems suboptimum
<sabdfl> ok, ogra and others talked about PR
<sabdfl> we certainly have a good reputation on dates, even in an industry which does not respect them
<sabdfl> and i'm unhappy that we will negatively impact on that
<ogra> yeah, the suse article is very bad
<Whatsisname> yeah, then its all the more important to stick to whats set
<ogra> suse has a good reputation too ...
<sabdfl> we generally go with time-based, where the time is the most important factor
<sabdfl> this works well for our normal releases
<ogra> as long as we dont *really rock* with everything else we'll get bad press
<sabdfl> but it's not possible to do both time-based and feature-based goals, they conflict
<Spec> In light of the debconf bug, I think a delay might be seen as good by the 'media'.
<Whatsisname> meh
<Treenaks> ogra: which means we need all the small things people whine about (WPA, for one)
<Seveas> Whatsisname, please stick to constructive commenting only
<ogra> Treenaks, exactly 
<jdub> sabdfl: disagree - structure is the key.
<sabdfl> so, in this case, i think dapper demands that we set an even high bar in quality, and i'm afraid I've introduced a new goal of l10n late
<Whatsisname> i bet the debconf thing will pretty much be forgotten soon
<ogra> or stuff like screensaver configuration ... etc
<sabdfl> jdub: elaborate?
<robotgeek> i think the pro's outweigh the cons. if we release early, with unpolished os causes more "bad press" than delaying with a polished release
<ogra> they will very closely look on missing features
<sabdfl> Whatsisname: it's a huge slip on our part, i doubt it will be forgotten soon, its rather humbling
<pitti> ogra: right, we'll have a lot of missing features
<daf> robotgeek: indeed -- short term bad press now vs. long term loss of reputation
<WildTangent> why not do as microsoft does? patch :)
<gora> sabdfl: l10n goal is good to hear. There are some Indic l10n items missing.
<bustacap> +1 WildTangent 
<ogra> pitti, thats what i mean ... we cant risk missing features if we delay 6 weeks
<Seveas> WildTangent, that's done already - and please stick to the topic - the debconf bug is a completely different discussion
<Whatsisname> it was a slip up yes but there was a response almost immediatly to it
<sabdfl> ok, so to summarize on the PR position:
* vuntz_ agrees with ogra
<jdub> sabdfl: i don't believe time-based and feature-based goals conflict, but it requires a structured approach to get right. unfortunately, time-based has often been approached in opposition to feature-based, which is counter-productive.
<Whatsisname> no sort of "wait until the third tuesday of the month" or any similar shenanigas
<mdz> Seveas: I think WildTangent was suggesting implementing our new feature goals via post-release patches as an alternative to a delay
<WildTangent> Seveas, im talking about the release in general. if its not finished, then finish it later
<sabdfl>  - we should message clearly that we are delaying to meet higher standard of quality, testing, l10n, because people want Dapper to be "exceptional"
<Seveas> WildTangent, my apologies then
<mdz> however there are good reasons why we need to do these particular changes prior to release
<bustacap> +1 mdz 
<sabdfl>  - we should work hard to make sure that Dapper is , in fact, exceptional
<robotgeek> mdz: what about people on dailup. they get 100 mb updates after 3 weeks?
<Whatsisname> WildTangent, "finish it later" is bad news
<bustacap> Whatsisname, "add it later" is the real point..
<victory747> l10n and Chinese support (and the like) won't help with press, but it will help with people in those places adopting ubuntu
<mdz> when it comes to localization, we need to tightly integrate the changes with the installer and live CD environments; that is, these are features which need to go on the final CD images
<jdub> sabdfl: furthermore, i don't think this slip should impact dapper+1. ;-) [ultimately, i think this is an exception that can prove our rule, and can be messaged positively.] 
<WildTangent> i believe it is important we stick somewhat to our 6 month release cycle
<_mindspin> finish it the best should be the approach
<ogra> jdub, how wouldnt it impact dapper+1 ?
<Seveas> post-release patches won't work for certification
<Whatsisname> bustacap, well, theres going to be "add it later" going on always, whether you delay your release date or not, a good thing in my opinion
<ogra> we cant start working on it
<mdz> post-release patches can't improve the user experience with the CD images, especially those which go out via shipit
<sabdfl> jdub: am willing to consider making dapper+1 a super-short cycle, would be.... edgy :-)
<bustacap> is 6 weeks enough time to include a solid SCIM?
<JaneW> I also obliquely alluded to the timing of the next spec writing sprint to plan and spec Dapper +1. Will we need to shift that out too?
<WildTangent> mdz: very true
<nate_> is it possible to release l10n after the release?  that would satisfy those who don't need it and wouldn't delay the receiving of it by those who do need it
<WildTangent> didnt think of that
<jdub> ogra: shouldn't impact the schedule, sorry.
<pitti> mdz: not even to mention that we don't have the manpower to develop two releases
<jsgotangco> bustacap: good enough
<sabdfl> JaneW: yes, the dapper+1 spec meeting will take place just after dapper release, not before
<JaneW> ok, thanks
<Kream> As someone who works with end users and has to choose between recommending Ubuntu to someone or (with a heavy heart) asking people that don't deal well with "newness" to stick with Windows, polish will help (U|K)buntu compete with Vista. That's very important, since the cost of Vista will be $1 here, just like it is with XP.
<mdz> pitti: we do, but not without significant compromises
<sabdfl> nate_: some translations can be updated after release, yes, that's what we have rosetta and language packs for, but some of the plumbing has to be in place at the time of release, which is what we are working on
<nate_> sabdfl, ahhh
<jono> from the perspective of someone who has worked as a journalist in the Open Source press for five years, if we release a lower quality Dapper, that will net far worse press than a delay - proposing a delay and focussing the message around 'delaying to improve the quality' will net only minor negative press
<Whatsisname> Kream, try making it clear to them that free software will always be free, Windows won't be $1 always
<mdz> nate_: translations, yes, but the localization changes we're discussing here are system-level changes, not translations
<Whatsisname> i'm sure you've tried
<sabdfl> thanks jono
<sabdfl> can we call an end to the PR discussion? any further comments on that?
<ubijtsa> the reason a lot of people have chosen Ubuntu over Debian (or other distros) in the strict 6 months release cycle. Slipping on it once and then catching up immediately won't be a problem, but slipping continously will mean lost community support - Ubuntu will be seen as 'just another Debian that takes ages to release'
<nate_> so, I'm not currently involved in helping with ubuntu, how can i get involved to help it get finished sooner?
<ogra> jono, that will only work if the release is 100% .... not one missing feature etc
<GNAM> don't you think there's a need for an official 5.10.1 version with bug fixed?
<sabdfl> nate_: check out the "participate" web page on ubuntu.com
<mdz> nate_: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate (let's try to stay on-topic here)
<Seveas> GNAM, please stick to the topic
<nate_> srry
<dholbach> ubijtsa: I daresay we've been really strict on release dates, freeze dates etc until now - I can't see it happen to change (just like that).
<pitti> GNAM: this evening's TB
<sabdfl> ok, next topic
<sabdfl> let's discuss the idea of "dapper being a different kind of release"
<ubijtsa> dholbach: point taken, just voicing concern
<Whatsisname> is this the "official community meeting?" i thought it was later
<sabdfl> higher quality, longer support
<sabdfl> how do we communicate that to users?
<mdz> Whatsisname: there are two (equal) meetings, to allow for global participation
<Whatsisname> ah ok
<sabdfl> how do we stay true to the idea that *every* release is usable, supported, high quality?
<Whatsisname> mmm timezones
<nate_> maybe integrate a codename into it that will make them ask?  like trail it with 'bedrock'
<bustacap> sabdfl, can the "enterprise" release of Dapper be released alongside Dapper+1 -> it seems there is a lot being thrown into Dapper in the final hours..
<nate_> dapper bedrock, or something
<Seveas> Whatsisname, 2nd warning: please stay on topic - the meeting is already busy as is
<Whatsisname> sorry :(
<sabdfl> but at the same time, have dapper-style releases that are long term supported and obviously higher-input
<whiprush> sabdfl: that thing you explained about the foundation and being dirty makes sense to me.
<Seveas> sabdfl, by calling them enterprise release?
<bustacap> yes, 6 months after the dirty foundations are released to clean and release as enterprise
<nate_> foundation might convey the wrong meaning and enterprise is overused in my opinion
<sabdfl> Seveas: somewhere on the website i'm quoted as saying "we don't do 'free and nasty' releases with 'pay-for enterprise' releases" :-)
<JaneW> cornerstone?
<nate_> JaneW, I like that
<Spec> Having a delay and calling it an enterprise release both mean that dapper must truley be 100% ready after the delay.
<jono> there has been lots of press about Dapper competing with Vista - to get that to users we need to (a) visually identify Dapper is unique and (b) deliver the key features that are lacking such as easily accessing windows disks
<bustacap> Spec, I don't think 6 weeks is a good enough period to "enterprise" a release
<jdub> "3 for your heart, 1 for your heavy metal - ubuntu keeps you on the edge *and* on the air"
<sabdfl> jono: the tricky bit is that for a dapper-style release we can in fact only work on fewer new features if we also want the quality standard to be high
<vuntz_> while doing an "enterprise release" is great, I don't believe everyone in the community is interested in the "enterprise" goal
<Seveas> jdub, awesome 
<sabdfl> so the cool-new-stuff needs to come in early in the meta-cycle (dapper+1, dapper+2)
<bustacap> jono, I believe Dapper+1 will be the true competitor with Vista (Xgl, etc..)
<sabdfl> vuntz_: i agree
<nate_> Ubuntu Cornerstone, or Ubuntu Bedrock, something that conveys a sort of permanance and strength
<ogra> sabdfl, what about the cool new stuff thats missing in dapper and that we wont deliver ...
<nate_> then change for subsequent releases
<sabdfl> i think the six-month "bleeding edge" releases are useful for a LOT of people who want new desktop functionality
<bustacap> vuntz, I think there is a need for Enterprise out there..
<sabdfl> and if all our releases we dapper-style, we would lose those users
<jono> sabdfl, agreed - so we need to prioritise features that users are stumped by - as an example instead of focussing on edge cases we need to look at the forums and identify common sources of confusion
<ogra> sabdfl, i'm mainly working on the screensaver fron, i get a lot of bashing for th emissing features alreaddy
<jdub> sabdfl: remember when we talked about six month release cycles and four version release cycles? i think that's worth coming back to given this experience.
<janimo> emphasize that dapper takes ubuntu to a new level
<jsgotangco> are we still in control?
<bustacap> sabdfl, that's good for home users, corporate users want an enterprise edition..
<Spec> Enterprise conveys 'server-class' to me, which has nothing to do with X..
<ogra> sabdfl, and we wont have the features people are asking for, simply because upstream isnt ready for that yet 
<bustacap> enterprise desktop edition
<vuntz_> bustacap: it's not about the need. It's about the community. The community interests might be in conflict with the enterprise goal
<Whatsisname> additionally I find giving the adjective "enterprise" to something inplies one is better than the other
<Seveas> vuntz_, since when are enterprise users not part of the community?
<vuntz_> and IMHO, community is more important than this goal in the long term
<nate_> we could use mockingly similar ones to vista?
<gaz00> if we start delaying dapper+1, the comparisons to vista will only increase ;)  
<mdz> jono: we do, and we have
<Whatsisname> and I think all users should always have the full power of free software at their disposal
<vuntz_> Seveas: since the day when the enterprise users don't even know it's called Ubuntu :-)
<bustacap> the community seem to be focussed on the home user - ubuntu is good enough quality for use in the corporate environment - where is the backup for the statements for getting it into the business environment..
<sabdfl> jdub: we can't commit to dapper+4 being another dapper, 'cause we don't know what upstream will be doing in two years
<ubijtsa> sabdfl: what about consistently make every fourth release the ultra-stable, deeply QA'd release. most corporates do not want to roll out new releases every six months, they do it every two years, fitting in with the 'every fourth release' of Ubuntu ?
<jono> mdz, exactly, so the delay can continue to refine this integration
<sabdfl> but we can commit to supporting dapper till upstream has another moment of calm
<jono> there is no way to drag Dapper up to be a dramatic competitor to Vista so close to release
<jono> users just want consistancy and better integration
<jdub> sabdfl: but we need to aim for a long-term supported release over (at the very least) two cycles
<mdz> jono: unfortunately, the broadest issues in those arenas seem to be non-technical problems (software we can't or won't include, for example)
<Spec> ubijtsa: +1
<bustacap> ubijtsa, my point exactly - 6 month updates to corporate desktops are just not going to happen - it's ludicrous
<_mindspin> yup
<jdub> even if we wanted to use the word "enterprise", we don't realistically reach those expectations anyway - dapper is going to rock as a platform for edge services, specific backend services, workstations and some desktop tasks.
<jono> mdz, sure, and this is where it is essential to hook our fine doc and community resources in
<mdz> ubijtsa: we've based the Dapper long-term decision on the convergence of solid and supportable releases coming out of the open source world
<sabdfl> ubijtsa, Spec: see my point to jdub, we cant commit to a regular corporate-style release, because it depends on what is going on with kernel, X, gcc, openoffice
<bustacap> jdub, I think there is a need for an enterprise-quality desktop - not server - to be released shortly..
<sabdfl> and gnome and kde
<mdz> ubijtsa: we don't have control over what happens there, so it's difficult for us to commit to a fixed schedule for such long-term commitments
* robotgeek is totally confused right now about all this corporate stuff
<jono> sabdfl, let me ask, how do you see Dapper different to Breezy from the user's perspective?
<FlannelKing> if, as ubijtsa suggested, every fourth release is a 'enterprise' release, we could always delay that one release a few months, .06 instead of .04, which would not only give us extra time to finish it, but also set it apart from our normal releases, so people would be able to distinguish higher quality releases, without memorizing names.
<ubijtsa> mdz, sabdfl: point taken
<jdub> bustacap: we'll ship a long-term supported desktop - but for various reasons, we should not call it 'enterprise'
<sabdfl> jono: fewer "new" features, better polish, better stability, better certifications, longer support
<Seveas> we're going a bit offtopic people - the current question is 'how to convey that dapper is different but all our releases are good'
<bustacap> jdub, however it is denoted, the long-term supported desktop needs to be supported in other ways as well, other than the current "support" offered..
<sabdfl> i'm thinking we should call it 6-06 LS (for "long support"). something in the version number to distinguish it would help
<jsgotangco> where does our server edition fall into place here???
<bustacap> sabdfl, and release the LS version at a later date
<jono> sabdfl, so Dapper is less a dramatic new release and instead more refinement, better integration and the solidification of edge services? I suspect our users expect that to - they look at the changes from warty to hoary to breezy and expect similar things for dapper
<Spec> sabdfl: -1
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: VLS :-p
<jdub> jsgotangco: same thing, different install media
<sabdfl> jono: just can't have crack and crisp in the same release
<Spec> I think the versioning should stay consistent, always. (Year.Month)
<sabdfl> Spec: yes, agree, im proposing the LS as a way of distinguishing 6-06 from 6-10 for people who are Not In The Know.
<dolson> reading on the forums, the end-user community seem to be 90% in favor of the delay - and a lot of them seem to think that it means they'll get WPA and other features added in. I think if it is delayed and the new features aren't added, they will be disenchanted with Dapper
<jono> sabdfl, exactly, and I think users are less after crack and just want better refinement and stability, which is exactly what Dapper has had so far
<poningru> I think the change in the versioning should be enough to convey the meaning of long support/stability
<bustacap> 6.06 Milestone - released 3 months after Dapper is released
<sabdfl> dolson: we could take WPA if we got community contributions of packages that Just Work and pass review
<sabdfl> soon
<gaz00> why not just use 6-00?  it's not conflicting with year.month, but does signify a big change?  
<Seveas> sabdfl, argh, please don't tempt me...
<JaneW> gaz00: that implies a 6th release
<poningru> by change I mean 6.04 -> 6.06
<mjg59> I think bikeshedding over the version number is not the best possible use of time right now
<mdz> gaz00: we've debated release numbering schemes extensively; there was a recent mailing list thread about it.  let's not rehash that here
<sabdfl> Seveas: tempt you to make high quality packages? that's *exactly* what i'm doing :-)
<gaz00> ok
<sabdfl> mjg59: point
<sabdfl> ok, any other suggestions as to how we can make the dapper release distinct?
<juliux|cebit> why we can make 2 releases? one 6.04 for the normal users and one for the enterprise version?
<whiprush> I think a key to the point that should be made is that dapper is a culmination of things learned from warty/hoary/breezy.
<dholbach> juliux|cebit: because we can't maintain <n> branches
<mdz> dolson: we have been very explicit and specific about the reasons for the delay
<whiprush> I don't think that much is obvious with dapper so far.
<jono> sabdfl, I think a visually distinct release is essential
<juliux|cebit> dholbach, the second version can be and update for the firste one
<whiprush> I think most people think it's just another cycle.
<jono> dapper needs to look different and exciting
<jdub> "3 for your heart, 1 for your heavy metal - ubuntu keeps you on the edge *and* on the air"
<jono> and this is happening
<Whatsisname> jono yeah i was thinking something visual too
<sabdfl> juliux|cebit: we did consider branching, 6.04 on time and then a later "LS" release, but we don't have the resources
<Seveas> jono, it's orange already 
<Kamion> juliux|cebit: that essentially doubles our QA effort, which is critical-path
* jsgotangco will just wait for the new freeze dates to come
<Whatsisname> like a different theme or something for one
<Frogzoo> Does the Ubuntu community have sufficient resources for an _additional_ corporate release, on top of the current 2 releases a year?
<jono> Seveas, heh
<Seveas> Frogzoo, no
<Whatsisname> I know they don't want to stray from the normal naming convention as well so thats probably out
<dolson> mdz: yes, but the community doesn't seem to listen all the time. despite me saying it a few times to them, they still say things like "I'm in favor we need WPA" and such. so.. I hear ya, but end-users don't understand this
<ogra> dolson, ++
<marty> Just as a point from being a Ubuntu user, advocate and fan for over 18 months (but not a developer) I have just found out in this meeting that the version number is year.month. my guess is that 80% also are blissfully ignorant
<jono> if dapper was to be released with a really unique and eye catching visual theme, it would automatically be seen as unique
<robotgeek> dolson: ++
<jono> that is exactly what novell have done with SLED
<juliux|cebit> Kamion, sabdfl but the problem is that every normal people think that the next version is released in april and not in june
<Spec> XGL itself is revolutionary enough to make anyone think a computer running it is 'enterprise class', but that's not ready yet.
<sabdfl> dolson: can you get working on WPA packages with seveas?
<whiprush> yes, I think it needs to be made clear that the delay doesn't mean Your Pet Feature(tm) will be in.
* ogra has ringing ears about "screensavers are not configurable"
<jsgotangco> haha
<Seveas> sabdfl, no - I have no time - my graduation is in the way of that
<dolson> sabdfl: I don't have any need of the package, I'm just speaking in interest of combatting negative word-of-mouth
<sabdfl> dolson: ok, well spread the word that a contribution will make it happen
<ogra> that will bite back if we delay and dont have it ... but upstream isnt ready to include irt
<bustacap> Spec, off-topic - but Xgl definately would not go on any of my corporate desktops
<dolson> sabdfl: I can't work on it, as I don't hav any way to test it. but I will do that
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> dolson: the process by which we set our development goals is incredibly transparent; there should be no surprises.  not sure what more we could do there, but we're straying from the topic a bit
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> I *think* that's all the major issues that were raised
<sabdfl> anybody else have a broad topic that needs discussion?
<G0SUB> the new freeze dates?
<jsgotangco> we'll just wait them
<Seveas> How/When are you/we going to decide about whether to delay or not?
<Spec> Is it definite that if a delay takes place, dapper+1's release will be early?
<jdub> Spec: it can only be on time or late. ;-)
<JaneW> will there be a vote after the meeting later, or just a general consensus feeling after both sittings?
<Seveas> Spec, that has been answered already: there might be a delay for dapper +1 and +2, but that's not sure
<Spec> err, on time = short cycle
<sabdfl> Spec: it will be less than six months after dapper, only question is how much less
<mdz> G0SUB: not finalized yet; I've solicited feedback via email
<G0SUB> ok
<jono> not broad, but one glaring problem with Dapper is that it does not seem to detect Windows partitions easily - this is a showstopper for many of clients - they don't know what an /etc/fstab is and don't want to know
<theoddone> jono +1
<sabdfl> jono: if you can get some guys from the community that you trust to put together patches on that front they will get high level review, i can promise that much
<mdz> jono: we're not here to discuss random feature ideas for Dapper; we have specific goals in mind which we feel justify a delay, no more
<jono> the installer should detect this
<Whatsisname> well someone needs to step up and develop free ntfs write support
<jono> mdz, ok
* ogra thinks thats sad, we wont build mdz's birthday present anymore ...
<Kamion> jono: I'm familiar with that problem
<jono> Kamion, :)
<sabdfl> Whatsisname: that and a pony :-)
<sabdfl> now
<Whatsisname> lol
<Kamion> jono: talk with me about it later once I'm out from under this security thing
<jono> Kamion, ok
<sabdfl> thank you all, i think that's a good discussion
<Seveas> (ntfs write support is available in dapper already)
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: ponies for the whole distro team!
<sabdfl> TB, CC, anybody care to comment now?
<ogra> Mithrandir++
<mdz> Kamion: when you're out from under this security thing, you're back under your previous workload ;-)
<jsgotangco> cool
<Whatsisname> Seveas: free write support?
<mjg59> sabdfl: Final decision still falls to the TB?
<Spec> captive?
<jdub> ogra: dude, dapper was going to be released on my birthday. this is a complete sham. ;-)
<ogra> jdub, gah
<Spec> jdub: well, in that case, i see no reason for a delay...
<sabdfl> mjg59: no, CC, but TB gets to break down the extra time on different schedule freezes
<mjg59> Ok
* vuntz_ has a last question: does it change the date of the prerelease?
<Kamion> I'm going to wait until the next round of discussion before making up my mind, I think
<Seveas> vuntz_, good point
<sabdfl> vuntz_: TB decision
<Spec> thanks for listening to the community, see ya
<sabdfl> CC, TB, done?
<Seveas> sabdfl, how about making an almost-there release apri 20 and call for wide testing?
<Kamion> I'm still rather concerned about the PR impact and loss of the reputation we've built up; think it has to be handled with considerable sensitivity
<Spec> Seveas: +1
<sabdfl> Seveas: definitely, will call for wide testing of the first Flight that has everything we want in it
<ogra> Kamion++
<JaneW> Kamion: ditto
<vuntz_> a lot of people are expecting the prerelease to be out really soon now
<bustacap> if the decision was made to delay, a well-written, well-distributed press release should follow
<jsgotangco> we made a delay before if i remember right? but its just 2 weeks i think
<_mindspin> the pr thing means, that dapper should be nearly perfect
<bustacap> haha @ _mindspin 
<sabdfl> Kamion: would it help if TB and CC all have to sign off on the communication of this?
<_mindspin> ;-)
<mdz> I've weighed in already, but for public record...I recommended a 6-week delay as the best way to achieve the new localization goals and to give us more breathing room for stabilization
<Kamion> sabdfl: certainly the more eyes on it the better
<theoddone> kamion +1
<sabdfl> ok, thanks Easterners, we'll catch the Westerners at 18:00 UTC
<jono> right, thanks for hearing my thoughts folks, I best get back to working
<mdz> vuntz_: the announcement of the proposal for a delay was widely publicized, and the final announcement of a new release date will be even more so
<Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for listening to us
<bustacap> cheers for the consultation
<JaneW> Thanks for the courtesy everyone. That was well handled for a 200-strong group.
<dolson> if the decision is made by the entire Ubuntu community, the delay can't really be too negative - everyone was invited to comment on it, and while I'm not in favor of a delay, I think the PR should mention that it was concensus
<Seveas> I've never seen a CEO take the community this serious
<sabdfl> Seveas: thank you for your huge contribution
<jsgotangco> cheers
<ogra> sabdfl++
<dolson> oh it's over
<Seveas> dolson, for now
<_mindspin> hehe
<jono> sabdfl, good job, there :)
<robotgeek> dolson: you can join again, later :)
<G0SUB> sabdfl: you rock! and Ubuntu rocks with you :)
<sabdfl> :-)
<ajmitch> dolson: next one in a few hours
<Seveas> there will be another meeting at 18:00 UTC
<sabdfl> thanks guys
* ogra gives Seveas a cookie 
<Seveas> We will be better prepared for that
<Seveas> ogra, don't
<highvoltage> i just want to say, as a community member, that I have complete confidence in the ubuntu team and that I will trust whichever conclusion you reach.
<dolson> robotgeek: it's 5:37am and I didn't sleep yet. I don't know I can be here :)
<sabdfl> cheers all, see some of you again this evening, thanks for taking the time to weigh in
* ubijtsa calls for a round of applause for sabdfl et al
<robotgeek> dolson: same here :)
<ogra> Seveas, no space cookie :)
<Seveas> I have a dentist appointment at 3:30 UTC :/
<whiprush> meetings like this is why ubuntu rocks. thanks everyone!
<Seveas> rootcanal
<_mindspin> uuuh
<gaz00> thanks everyone....   twas my first intro to the ubuntu community, and it was more than interesting and worth getting up at 2am
<sabdfl> Seveas: i would swap you if you would clear my inbox :-)
<rob> I'm amazed at how well behaved everyone has been
<Lappi> highvoltage+
<ajmitch> Seveas: someone else can be appointed as bouncer :)
<cmug> So what was the outcome
<NoOneInParticula> I am a complete and total linux newbie, and from a newbie POV, I don't see the delay as negative at all. It shows that ubuntu us concerned with turning out the best possible product. Am looking forward to the next release
<Seveas> I'll try to write a summary of this meeting before the next one takes place
* CuriousCat gives Seveas ice cream for job well done.
<sabdfl> Seveas: thanks very much
<Seveas> cmug, there's no outcome yet
<rob> hardly even a need for +m, very polite
<dolson> theoddone: is this theoddone from i.o?
<Seveas> sabdfl, you're very welome 
<theoddone> Seveas: thanks
<robotgeek> yes, i stand corrected on the +m
<cmug> what are the choices
<Seveas> Please move to other channels for further discussion
<Seveas> so I can clean out this mess ;)
<Whatsisname> sure
<cmug> k
<NoOneInParticula> bye all 
<Whatsisname> can we idle
<EricNeon> bye
<ogra> Whatsisname, sure
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Today (Tuesday Mar. 14) 18:00 UTC - 2nd Meeting about the proposed delay of Dapper
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-oooo dholbach fabbione JaneW mdz]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-ooo mvo ogra Seveas]  by Seveas
<olive``> 
<Seveas> prod
* Whatsisname falls into water
<Chousuke> Should've ignored joins and parts during the meeting.
<Chousuke> They clutter the log :/
* highvoltage logs into a remote server to log all the cool sruff in irssi while away...
<sandis> Does anybody know, what will happen to dapper +1 if dapper is delayed?
<HiddenWolf> Chousuke: what was decided?
<Chousuke> HiddenWolf: They will not decide anything yet
<HiddenWolf> Chousuke: certainly the mood of the meet pointed in some direction
<Chousuke> HiddenWolf: This is only for community input before the decision is made.
<Whatsisname> HiddenWolf, they also have another meeting later
<Chousuke> there's a link to the log in the topic. you can go read it. :)
<HiddenWolf> I figured, topic is hard to miss. :)
<HiddenWolf> actually, there is no link there.
<Chousuke> hm
<Chousuke> oh, Seveas changed the link
<Chousuke> topic*
<Seveas> Chousuke, I'm writing summary etc
<Chousuke> ok
<Chousuke> anyway, http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log
<Chousuke> it's actually my log of this channel, so it has some useless stuff from prior to the meeting as well.
<Chousuke> Also, times are UTC+2 :P
<kenweill> hows the meeting?
<Hobbsee> kenweill: it's over :P
<Hobbsee> kenweill: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
<Jack-Ho> :P
<kenweill> owh... sorry...
<kenweill> whats with 18:00 UTC?
<ubijtsa> kenweill: round two of the meeting
<ktogias> Seveas, Where will your summary be posted when done? (Reading the hole log is a little hard)
<Seveas> ktogias, I'm working on it at the wiki
<Seveas> I'll put a link in the topic when done
<ktogias> ok
<Hobbsee> ktogias: heh - i prefer reading it off the logs...
* Hobbsee is very greatful for almost real-time logs - thanks fabbione!
<tmahmood> hi.
<Hobbsee> hey tmahmood 
<tmahmood> guess i missed the whole meeting?
<ogra> tmahmood, there is another one at 18:00 UTC
<Hobbsee> yeah, you did :P
<Hobbsee> meeting logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
<tmahmood> hm...
<tmahmood> thanks :)
<Hobbsee> no problems
<AnThOnYhO> hi all  gnome2.14 have released
<tmahmood> when the second meeting starts? its already 18:00 here
<Chousuke> 18:00 UTC
<Chousuke> in six hours.
<tmahmood> ok... :)
<tmahmood> see you guys than
<tmahmood> bye
<konsu|187> bye
<pain|rm183> bye, cu hopefully later this day
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Today (Tuesday Mar. 14) 18:00 UTC - 2nd Meeting about the proposed delay of Dapper - Please read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess before commenting
<Simbioz> hello al
<Simbioz> hello all
<olive> hello alll
<Simbioz> hi
<Simbioz> olive
<Simbioz> you girl ?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+m]  by Seveas
<Seveas> this is a channel for meetings, not for general chatter
<Seveas> rem Simbioz 
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-m]  by Seveas
<rturner> 4 and a half hours to go...
<leif_dyvik> anyone know how many people where at the first meeting?
<ogra> ~200
<Klaidas> so this meeting will be the one where the desicion will be made, right?
<rturner> i assume that...
<Seveas> Klaidas, no
<Seveas> Please read the summary of the first meeting
<Seveas> (and please don't speak in here when there's no meeting)
<Klaidas> ok, sorry
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by Seveas
<Luggy> foo
<raphink> bar
<highvoltage> foobar foobar foobar!
<ubijtsa> Seveas: ?
<Seveas> ubijtsa, ?
<ubijtsa> foobar? :)
<ubijtsa> "tell them off I say!" ;-)
<Seveas> highvoltage, hasn't had his medicine yet today
<Seveas> don't worry
<highvoltage> sorry, i tend to get excited if i hear foo and bar and haven't had my medication
* highvoltage has foobartitus
<Seveas> highvoltage, please try to control yourself and not clutter up the logs
<chuckyp> ?
<Lappi>  /msg nickserv set unfiltered on
* Kyral sits around for the second meeting
<Treenaks> ktogias: 4 hours to go then
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> Kyral: 
<Kyral> Tab completion gone wrong!
<Treenaks> sshh
<Kyral> Personally I have no adverse comments except that one of my friends thought the delay was six *months* and not six *weeks*
<WebLOCH> i know i cant live without it :(
<FiNeX> Hi!
<WebLOCH> This room is not for speaking in FiNeX 
<WebLOCH> mako?
<mako> WebLOCH: yes
<WebLOCH> make = matt tamset?
<mako> mako = benjamin mako hill
<WebLOCH> mako, apologies
<Seveas> mako, hi there!
<mako> Seveas: hey there
<Seveas> mako, if you're interested: full and summarized logs of the first meeting are available via th link in the topic
<ploum> I don't know what time it is in UTC... When will the next meeting begin ?
<fooishbar> daniels@preemptive:~% date --utc
<fooishbar> Tue Mar 14 15:55:53 UTC 2006
<Kyral> so about 2 hours
<ploum> fooishbar: thanks for the tip ;-)
<jsgotangco> hey fooishbar nice seeing you again :)
<ogra> yay, daniels :)))
<WebLOCH> moogman, am sees you
<fooishbar> (i'm not dead)
<ogra> :)
<ogra> good to hear
<JanC> fooishbar: are you sure, because Xorg didn't break for a long time in Ubuntu now...  ;-)
<ubijtsa> Shush!
<ubijtsa> chit-chat not on this #, take it elsewhere
<Seveas> ubijtsa, someone just returned from the death - qualifies for an exception 
<ubijtsa> Hmmmm.. well, you the op
<barsanuphe> hi, i understand the debate around the delay issue, but who/how will the final decision be eventually taken?
<Seveas> barsanuphe, please read the wikipage mentioned in the topic
<Seveas> (and the logs it links to) 
<barsanuphe> my bad, sorry
<Frogzoo> even if Dapper's released late, it should still be 6.04 precisely because it IS late - calling it 6.06 will cause confusion down the track I think, if 6.06 is released in June, then it's not late, it's on time?! also, further down the track, Dapper will be the only release who's name is out of the series, marking it permanently as the release that came in late - people really need to rethink whether the 6.06 name is desirable
<Treenaks> Frogzoo: please keep comments until the meeting.
<Frogzoo> Treenaks: too late for me dude
<chuckyp> Mr. Poopypants?
<Ra211> is the meeting over? am I too late?
<ploum> If anyone is interested, I wrote my opinion about the 6 weeks delay here :
<ploum> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-March/016437.html
<ploum> I'm not sure I can attend the whole meeting
<Seveas> Ra211, it's in 1.5 hours
<ploum> Ra211: no, 1h30 too early
<Ra211> crap, won't be here in 1.5 hours
<Seveas> ploum, double-release is impossible
<Seveas> we don't have the manpower
<Seveas> please see the log from the first meeting
<ploum> Seveas: ok, I will read it
<ploum> will it cost so much manpower ?
<seb128> ploum: 2 branches to maintain is twice the work
<seb128> ploum: and if we roll a first set of CD, etc we have to make a total freeze for some days and proof test install and liveCD again and again
<ploum> seb128: 2 branches ? Why 2 branches ? I don't see the need for 2 branches
<seb128> ploum: ie: we create 2 CD testing efforts etc
<seb128> ploum: so we have to stop fixing any bug for a week while we try the first CD of CD
<ploum> I agree with the 2 CD testing efforts
<seb128> ploum: and we can't do the l10n changes which are one of the reason of the switch
<seb128> s/switch/shift
<seb128> ploum: making the l10n changes now and having them ready for preCD this week is not realistic ...
<seb128> ploum: or we would have to ship a less quality first CD to make the better quality with the second or something like that
<linbetwin> I think the two-release approach would send the wrong signal. People will say ubuntu has a community version and an enterprise version, like Novell, Red Had and Mandriva.
<andrewPCT> isn't it Red Hat and Fedora?
<Seveas> can we please save it for the meeting?
<ploum> Seveas: are we allowed to speak here in a "pre-meeting" ? (in order for me to be a bit less dumb at the real meeting ;-) )
<seb128> Seveas: does discussions between people on a non-used chan are an issue?
<Seveas> ploum, the logs/summary help
<dholbach> it scatters up the log
<Seveas> seb128, it clutters the logs ;)
<seb128> what log?
<Seveas> channel log...
<dholbach> which is used for summaries
<Treenaks> why do we log when there's no meeting?
<seb128> oh you guys, control freak, k, let's part your chan 
<ploum> ah, logs are already recording ?
<Seveas> Treenaks, ubuntulog always logs
<ploum> arf
* ploum smile for the logs
<Treenaks> Seveas: not an excuse :)
* ploum was not well dressed. Shame !
* cyphase is finishing up readint eh first meeting logs
<cyphase> reading the*
<Ra211> is there a summary of the 1st meeting?
<Seveas> see /topic
<Ra211> I read on the forums that they said in the 1st meeting that Xgl/compiz will be in Dapper+1; can't find much about it in the logs though
<cyphase> Ra211, a summary, and the logs
<Ra211> ? can't find much about it in the summary or the logs?
<ltibor65> Hi! When will be the meeting?
<cyphase> Ra211, it was mentioned, but it probably won't be in dapper+1
<cyphase> or at least, not by default
<ploum> Ra211: in fact, Xgl has nothing to do with the meeting, IMHO
<cyphase> it's in dapper, but in universe
<cyphase> until linux gets better graphics support, it can't be default
<ploum> ltibor65: in a bit more than one hour
<cyphase> unfourtanetly
<Ra211> thought that would be the reason
<cyphase> Ra211, of course, if an OEM made sure their cards would work well, they could enable it if they wanted too
<cyphase> but not while it's in universe
<ltibor65> ploum, comes Shuttleworth too?
<cyphase> yes
<cyphase> Ra211, hopefully in dapper+1 or dapper+2, it'll be in main at least
<ploum> ltibor65: yes but read carefully the link in the topic
<cyphase> probably +2
<cyphase> yea, don't say "woohoo! shuttleworth. was the shuttle worth it?"
<olive> (Mark S. is sabdfl)
<quidam-> here is the meeting right?
<cyphase> yes
<cyphase> at 18:00 UTC
<cyphase> 10AM on the US West Coast where I am
* cyphase was awake during the first meeting, but he forgot :(
<cyphase> i was logged on though
<chuckyp> 1800utc is 1:00pm for EST for you that can't do military time and timezones
<siretart> use 'date --utc' to learn to current time in utc
<ltibor65> Hi
<achille> hop
<soc> when will the official meeting start?
<b0rsten> 18 utc
<ogra> 18:00 UTC
<b0rsten> so in about 50min?
<andrewPCT> 48 minutes
<b0rsten> k :)
<soc> ok thx!
<soc> can we speak freely as lon as the official part hasn't started?
<Pygi> soc: yes
<Pygi> ogra: same things discussed today as yesterday?
<Seveas> soc, no
<Seveas> preferably this channel is silent between meetings
<Pygi> Seveas: ah, no ? :-/ ok then ;)
<ogra> Pygi, from my TZ same as this morning ...
<Pygi> k, thx ogra
<Stormx2> This one is going to be a little more full up than the last meeting I feel ;-)
<Seveas> Stormx2, we'll batten down the hatches (sp?)
<FunnyLookinHat> Seveas, would it be alright to send comments to you now in case we are busy or away at the beginning of meeting?
<Stormx2> Seveas: Ah ha :-) I think I'll just observe, cause I read through the points raised on the last meeting, and basicly i'd like to see a symbolic release on april 20th to say "It here but it's not finished". Still, its already been said, so I'll wait untill that gets discussed (if at all)
<Seveas> FunnyLookinHat, no - comments will only be looked at during the meeting
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<Seveas> The second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting will start in 30 minutes. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
<Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
<Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
<Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a consise way so you can easily paste them
<Seveas> * Stay on-topic and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
<Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
<Seveas> * Try to stay silent before the meeting - some chatter is ok but don't discuss the topic at hand yet
<jjesse> founders32
<jjesse> doh sorry wrong window
<ranf> hi
<lucas> ah
<Stormx2> Seveas: What does mode +mi do?
<Seveas> Stormx2, moderated+invite only
<zlatan58> moderated & invite
<Seveas> joining users will then be forwarded to the -overflow channel
<Stormx2> I see
<derrick81787> if i plan on just listening to the meeting and not speaking, would it be better for me to go to the #ubuntu-overflow channel?
<Seveas> derrick81787, it will not make much difference
<derrick81787> alright
<Aelor> Hi
<simpo> hi
<lguerra> hi
<Seveas> The second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting will start in about 15 minutes. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
<Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
<Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
<Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a concise way so you can easily paste them
<Seveas> * Stay on-topic and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
<Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
<Seveas> * Try to stay silent before the meeting - some chatter is ok but please don't discuss the topic at hand yet
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Today (Tuesday Mar. 14) 18:00 UTC - 2nd Meeting about the proposed delay of Dapper - Please read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess before commenting | Live log: http://ubuntu-nl.org/~dennis/meeting.log
<sivang> hrm, meeting 10 minutes away. better take this as a break.
<Stormx2> sivang: Agreed
* Stormx2 gets food
* Seveas just ate dinner
* chuckyp gets cheeseits
<Stormx2> Banana and some Nik Naks
<Stormx2> :D
<ogra> Seveas, already ? 
<ogra> Seveas, i thought you were at the dentist
* chuckyp puts my apple bottoms on
<Seveas> ogra, no, i've been stupid, appointment was earlier today and i messed up in my agenda
<fabbione> ok
<ogra> ok ? 
* highvoltage hoped that the dentist read the wiki page and decided to postpone the appointment to the benefit of the world
<highvoltage> (it's not often that dentists hold such power)
<Stormx2> highvoltage: haha
<Seveas> The second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting will start in about 7 minutes. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
<Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
<Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
<Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a concise way so you can easily paste them
<Seveas> * Stay on-topic and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
<Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+oo ogra fabbione]  by Seveas
<hey_DAX> is the second meeting over?
<highvoltage> hey_DAX: /topic
<ogra> hey_DAX, starts in 5 min
<cyphase> hey_DAX, it's about to start
<Amaranth> in case i'm not here, i vote for doing it :P
<Seveas> Amaranth, we don't vote
<FunnyLookinHat> lol
<Amaranth> Seveas: shh
<Amaranth> Seveas: it's already happening, why are we here?
<fabbione> NOTICE: OFFTOPIC TALK -> BAN
<fabbione> i am not as nice as Seveas 
<Amaranth> no matter what is talked about here it's going to be pushed back 6 weeks
<Stormx2> Amaranth: Not really... its up to the council and technical board
<Seveas> Amaranth, the CC and TB will decide based upon todays discussions
<jono> CC and TB?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+ooo Kamion mdz sabdfl]  by Seveas
<Aelor> And 6 weeks can't be bad for ubuntu in my opinion
<sabdfl> jono: community council and tech board
<jono> sabdfl, thanks :)
<juliux> hi
<ogra> jono, for your glossary :)
<jono> ogra, always helps :)
<ogra> your book should definately have one
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o pitti]  by Seveas
* highvoltage would think that most ubuntero's would know these acronyms by know :P
<ogra> wow, looks like we're more this time 
<pitti> hey
* Kyral returns
<Kyral> hey all
<Stormx2> Yeah... well it was mainly the people from asia/oceania who turns up to the last oen
<Stormx2> one*
<Amaranth> ogra: the last meeting was roughly 2-4am in the US
<meborc> europe here...
<FlannelKing> 1-4
<mordof> is the meeting today already over?
<sabdfl> mordof: about to begin
<mordof> ooo just in time :)
<Aelor> mordof, look the topic 
<cyphase> Anaranth, ogra, 1AM
<Seveas> Welcome to the second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
<Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
<Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
<Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a consise way so you can easily paste them
<Seveas> * STAY ON-TOPIC! and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
<Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
<Seveas> sabdfl has the stage for the introduction - all be quiet please
<FlannelKing> sabdfl: glad to finally have a definiton of why this release is special.
<mordof> Aelor, yeah i messed up on the time
<Seveas> FlannelKing, mordof - ssh
<sabdfl> TIME
<sabdfl> new balls
<mordof> ssh?
<sabdfl> seveas to serve
<Stormx2> secure shell
<Kyral> hehe
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Stormx2!*@*]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Kyral!*@*]  by Seveas
<Kamion> please be quiet and cut the off-topic chatter
<sabdfl> -ENOTWIMBLEDON
<Seveas> BE WARNED
<sabdfl> ok, let's give it a minute for the folks to arrive
<sabdfl> especially those who's alarm clocks just went off
<ogra> :)
<cyphase> :)
<Seveas> sabdfl, it's quite unusual for an Ubuntu meeting to start on time
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
<sabdfl> for those who weren't in this mornings town hall
<raphink> Seveas: it's quite unusual for sabdfl to be there at the beginning of a meeting, too :)
<sabdfl> we are tight on time, i'm afraid
<sabdfl> mdz and i need to leave for a Lp/distro leaders meeting in 1 hour
<sabdfl> so let's get going!
<raphink> and then there's TB in 2 hours
<Seveas> The ist of people who have comments is already growing
<sabdfl> first, thank you to everyone who is here
<mdz> Seveas: please filter questions/comments which are already addressed by your wiki summary
<sabdfl> second, those of you who have comments, please read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
<mdz> in the interest of time
<sabdfl> msg seveas
<sabdfl> pre-type your comments
<sabdfl> if someone says what you wanted to say, please just say so when your turn comes
<Seveas> To fulfill mdz' request: msg me your comments too!
<sabdfl> we want to find as many new arguments for or against as possible
<sabdfl> once we've had the first round of comments, i'll paste up a brief summary
<sabdfl> then we will answer any specific questions that were asked
<sabdfl> and then discuss new, high level issues
<sabdfl> after that, i'll ask TB and CC to weigh in
<sabdfl> ok?
<sabdfl> seveas, how long is that list?
<Seveas> around 10 so far
<sabdfl> ok, let's go
<Kamion> we're missing Keybuk from the TB
<Seveas> ploum, go
<ploum> Hello
<ogra> Kamion, can you call him?
<ploum> I think that a lot of communities and LUG have already scheduled an Install Party for Dapper. (My LUG, for example).
<ploum> I tought we will then only install Breezy but nobody in my LUG does agree with me !  Everyone want to, to a degree or another, allow people to install a "beta" or to dist-upgrade. (The party was originaly announced as an install/upgrade party)
<ploum> People think that it can't be that wrong but installing a non-stable release for non-geek people will, IMHO, gives a very bad opinions about Ubuntu (I just have an example in current dapper). I will do my best to convince people to not upgrade but I'm sure it will happens a lot and for a lot of beginners around the world. Even close friends with a strong Ubuntu knowledge are trying to convince me that it's better to install pre-dappe
<ploum> r than breezy because they are convinced that the 6 weeks delay is only "cosmetic things".
<Seveas> please say "done" when you finished your comment!
<ploum> I think that this problem is a serious issue and that the "symbolic beta release" suggested in the first meeting must be more than a symbolic beta release so we can install it and have a wider hardware testing field.
<ploum> If it's not possible, would it be possible to have an "official recommandation" or something that says "do not try this at home kids".
<ploum> done
<Seveas> thanks ploum
<Seveas> hardawayd, 
<Seveas> you're up
<hardawayd> First i would highly recommend the delay--dapper will be judged by my contacts--companies etc. against Novell and Redhat and it needs to be the best it can.  Also, for a year now i have been waiting for an easy interface to use with xsupplicant so wireless connections can be made at my university.  students now use windows and are willing to change but there has to be an easy interface to put in the peap-eap , mschapv2
<hardawayd>  parameters.  If the delay would mean that that could be accomplished it would be great.
<hardawayd> done
<LeonWP> hi
<frodon> hi
<Seveas> thanks hardawayd 
<Seveas> Kamion, 
<mdz> hardawayd: the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
<Kamion> I'm concerned about keeping staff in crunch mode for an extra six weeks; I think productivity is going to take a hit through sheer tiredness.
<Kamion> Pushing the release to after debconf means that either we won't be able to get any significant benefit from attending debconf, or productivity for that chunk of time will be significantly reduced.
<Kamion> Once we take the above into account, I question whether we'd get all that much more done in six weeks than we would in two.
<Seveas> Anyone who wants to comment: To fulfill mdz' request: msg me your comments too!
<mdz> debconf will be a nice opportunity to take a break
<sabdfl> mdz: for those of us going. i think kamion has a point, need to figure it out carefully
<Seveas> Kamion, was that all?
<ogra> Kamion, done ? 
<mdz> I don't think that 2 weeks would be enough to mete our goals
<Kamion> sorry, done
<mdz> s/mete/meet/
<Seveas> ok, thanks Kamion - bimberi is next
<bimberi> The aspects that are the communicated reasons for the delay become very important and will attract focus.  So, for example, localisation will become something that people will focus on because the delay was to make it better.  Hence it has to be good.
<bimberi> done
<Seveas> thank you - cyphase is up
<cyphase> While initially I didn't want the delay (I wanted Dapper now! :P), I think that the delay is a good idea, although 6 weeks seems like a lot. A month might be better.
<cyphase> Along with the proposed changes, we should use the time to make sure there are absolutely no hardware regressions. Seems several cards that used to work with ndiswrapper are having many problems now.
<cyphase> Lastly, as mentioned in the first meeting, there should be something in the releases name that indicates it's special. Maybe it could be something like "Ubuntu 6.04: A Polished Edition" :)
<cyphase> Done
<Seveas> ok, FunnyLookinHat 
<FunnyLookinHat> I think that errors/bugs found much later than releases, such as the root password flaw discovered in breezy a few days ago, are a good reason to delay the release by 6 weeks.  This release is the first "Corporate" release and should have extra care taken to make sure all is set to make a good impression and product.
<FunnyLookinHat> All of that to take into effect, into addition the fact that Supplicant needs to be supported and stable.  It's a very important feature for College users who needs wireless with WPA support as already stated.
<FunnyLookinHat> done.
<Seveas> thanks FunnyLookinHat - next up is highvoltage 
<Kamion> please skip comments that have already been raised by others
<Seveas> Kamion, I'm filtering as much as I can - it's hectic here 
<mdz> for the record, the delay is entirely unrelated to the recently-publicized security vulnerability; the proposal was made before it was known in fact
<Seveas> highvoltage, ?
<highvoltage> sure.
* sivang is here as all
<highvoltage> hi Seveas. I have one argument that counts for both against and for the postponement.
<highvoltage> I work on the tuXlabs project, where we have 200 computer labs set up in schools in south africa, we have put in a huge amount of planning to get the dapper edubuntu release rolled out in May (month after dapper release).
<highvoltage> The postponement throws us out to a large extent. On the other hand, we really *need* a very stable release, so we would rather have a later, better release and be inconvenienced, if it means that we can provide a better system to the benefactors.
<highvoltage> i think there may be other, similar projects that have planned around the date too, but quality is always a top priority.
<highvoltage> done;
<Seveas> thanks highvoltage - Tonio_ you're up
<ogra> (edubuntu could get hard frozen on time)
<Tonio_> the actual schedule for kde 3.5.2 is a few days/weeks before dapper relase, and reporting it would help for a better kde integration, cause 3.5.1 still has lots of bugs
<Tonio_> some majors like kdeprint doesn't work etc...
<Tonio_> that's why I would vote for the new release date, cause kubuntu isn't as mature as ubuntu in it's actual state
<Tonio_> done
<Seveas> thank you Tonio_ 
<Seveas> janimo, 
<janimo> delay good, more time for xfce polish for xubuntu
<janimo> done
<Seveas> ok, last on my list is raphink 
<raphink> We see on the users mailing lists that more and more users are wanting to switch to Dapper. People are eager to test it, but some don't want to take the risk to use a distro not frozen yet. I'm thinking many people might be deceived to have to wait 6 more weeks, which is about 1/5 of the total dev time. 
<raphink> I'd rather delay by a 1 or 2 weeks (and keep 6.04 which is an almost known name) if that was possible.
<Seveas> if I forgot anyone - yell in a /msg
<Seveas> raphink, was that all?
<mdz> raphink: a delay of 1 or 2 weeks is not enough time to have these new features implemented and tested
<raphink> Seveas: yes that was it, sorry
<sabdfl> ok, folks who have not yet spoken, msg seveas
<sivang> may I?
<mdz> we're still in the process of specifying the functionality
<Seveas> sivang, yes
<sivang> 1) I would like to be able to include UPBackup (Home User Backup) in ubuntu dapper and this extension might make this possible. a package will be shortly uploaded soon to universe to show where this is going.
<Seveas> (there are new /msg'es flowing in)
<sivang> 2) From the ISV certification, this extension will allow to to push the certification a bit further and do more testing / integration. as I helped with DB2 and intend to help on for dapper, I therefor support it.
<toma> Speaking on behalf a company that is working towards a POS-retail distribution with Ubuntu, we are more than comfortable with a few week delay. What is the worst case scenario, time wise?
<mdz> sivang: the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
<sabdfl> toma: 1st week of June
<toma> Thank you
<Seveas> sivang, was that all>?
<sivang> mdz: I understand, still for sake of polish and most important - bug fixing, I support it as well.
<hardawayd> i thought the wireless goals were in the dapper goals originally--am i wrong?
<Seveas> please refrain from discussing at this point
<Seveas> there are still comments comming
<NetGeek> would programs get updated during that 6 week delay?
<Seveas> ompaul, go
<sabdfl> hardawayd: we evaluated NetworkManager for Dapper, which would likely give us WPA, but it's not ready
<ompaul> Thanks Seveas Simple point, if we get all these extra l10n items into Dapper then when it becomes 6.X or 6-X the new possible long support base is going to be huge, should on the other hand this not happen then when is then l10n to get a long life version why are we restricting the Human Linux to some Humans?
<mdz> hardawayd: no, WPA was never a stated goal for Dapper, and as far as I know there were no developers working on it during the cycle
<ompaul> done
<cyphase> sabdfl, isn't it in main?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %cyphase!*@*]  by Seveas
<Seveas> thanks ompaul 
<Seveas> Xanadu, you're up
<Seveas> Xanadu, now is last on the list of *new* comments
<Xanadu> ta some comments to the Tectonic site from Ubuntu users (thought they should be heard)
<Xanadu> Posted by Ubuntu User
<Xanadu> They should stay on course with the release on April 20th!
<Xanadu> Change the dates and the support (because hey, they are going to really need another 6 months to get it up... and don't do CDs for this release (only take pre-orders for Full release when it comes out.ll in 45 days or 90 days?
<Xanadu> Call the April release " Fetal DAPPER " and when they got it ready - call it Baby Dapper , then do a bug fixed version called Dapper Flys!
<Xanadu> And print the CDs based on DapperFlys version version! That would be the supportable 5yr version and the final release target!
<Xanadu> However, all networking and basic appa (like Edubuntu default install of 2 NICs vs just 1 NIC) should be in place for April 20 "Fetal" release. All the extras Mark is taking about could come in Baby Dapper, and then declare a party for DapperFly (at last)and release a CD version based on that (hey, it could be fall before this is ready to FLY, given the historic way that some programming issues are resolved... I have seen more release d
<Xanadu> ates pushed back and push back and that is as frustrating as anything...)!
<Xanadu> Fetal Dapper
<Xanadu> Baby Dapper
<Xanadu> Sounds like a sane and not unusual approach to a rather common issue with operating systems. Hopefully the community has some sense of marketing and will appreciate his concern for delaying the Dapper release, after all this is a major release and one shouldn't start walking before a having had a good crawl around the office first.
<Xanadu> Actually, when was the last time an Os got released in time ... oh yeah, about six months ago ;-P
<Xanadu> I just keep my hopes up the debian project will benefit in full from this ubuntu thingy ...
<Xanadu> Posted by Daniel Mejia
<Xanadu> English.
<Xanadu> I think it is a good idea because not only they can polish some applications like the gdebi they can also work on somethin very innovative like an interface to make all the opion of an user avalible in only one window, like a user configuration to set everything from theme to preffered mp3 player :D
<Xanadu> RE: Shuttleworth wants six week delay for Dapper
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Xanadu!*@*]  by Seveas
<sabdfl> Seveas: easy tiger
<Seveas> Xanadu, we asked for brief comments - now is not the time for large messages
<sabdfl> he was just trying to help
<Seveas> (sabdfl: to stop the paste flood)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %Xanadu!*@*]  by Seveas
<sabdfl> Xanadu: the process did ask you to be careful not to flood
<Xanadu> soz trying to give opinion of the masses
<Xanadu> okay lots more on the site then
<sabdfl> we have 318 people here, masses enough :-)
<sabdfl> Xanadu: a url would suffice
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> anybody that msg's seveas but is feeling censored?
<sabdfl> nobody :-)
<Xanadu> done
<Seveas> siretart probably
<Seveas> he just /msg'ed
<sabdfl> siretart: go
<siretart> sabdfl: I noticed that there is a high priority spec, which has been delayed for dapper
<Seveas> siretart will be the absolute last one - there was time enough already to /msg
<siretart> network authentication
<siretart> if I remember correctly it was delayed because of lack of time
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-bbb %cyphase!*@* %Kyral!*@* %Stormx2!*@*]  by Seveas
<siretart> could that be reconsidered for dapper, given that we get additional 6 weeks?
<ogra> siretart, <mdz> : the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
<s_spiff> yello ppl
<Seveas> ok, so that was it
<mdz> please, no more proposals for new features
<Seveas> sabdfl, the stage is yours again
<sabdfl> siretart: i'd love that, but i don't think it will pass the TB
<Stormx2> what now? ;-)
<siretart> ogra: I read that. but this is a very special concern, I think
<sabdfl> i'm on thin enough ice already
<mdz> the reason we're delaying is because we already have too much to do
<NetGeek> but the feature freeze may need to be reviewed, or Dapper will leave the gate lagging behind in software
<sabdfl> and because we want to provide extra polish on the good work that has been done over 4 releases
<sabdfl> NetGeek: if we put out dapper on april 20, then on June 1st the software will be just as old
<sabdfl> but not just as polished
<hardawayd> all the polish in the world is not going to overcome the lack of wireless access
<siretart> well, basically this is a Mithrandir spec. perhaps he can comment on that?
<sabdfl> we would only gain in currency for a very short time if we released early
<sabdfl> we already have a dapper release that is well behind our normal gnome+1day release
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: ?
<sagarab> considering 18:23:13 by mdz -- and assuming 6 week delay... do u reckon 6 weeks is long enough to complete  what u've already got on your plate?
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: pong?
<mdz> hardawayd: we've heard you; please, this is not a forum for feature requests but to discuss the delay
<Kamion> I'm concerned that dapper+1 will be a pretty shoddy release given that we're going to have to shorten it a lot, BTW
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: siretart is asking re network auth
<ogra> Kamion++
<mdz> sagarab: yes, the 6 week figure was my recommendation
<Seveas> Kamion, just don't add too much new features to Edgy
<Kamion> Seveas: dapper+1 is all ABOUT new features
<Xanadu> sabdfl: who's going to decide at end of the day?
<NetGeek> sabdfl: I just don't want to see 5000 backport request the first day Dapper is out, That may be unavoidable:)
<hardawayd> i agree to delay it as long as they want--it will not have any practical effect that i can see
<ploum> Kamion++
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
<ogra> Seveas, its what all devs are waiting for, we had to keep our feet quite in dapper
<sladen> Xanadu: Community Council
<mdz> Kamion: we expect to delay dapper+1 somewhat to compensate for that (not the full 6 weeks, but some)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> let me paste up a brief summary
<subsonic_shadow> hello
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: I've estimated it at 30 days; it could be done, but I'm only one person and I'm busy trying to fix espresso keyboard handling as well as having been dragged into some korean keyboard handling lately, so I would need to drop a bit of that if we wanted it in.
<sivang> Kamion: Edgy?
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: and it would be really nice to have it in too, but there wasn't time before FF.
<ailean> in my opinion the 6 week delay is way too long. many new users to linux have been waiting for the day it's released and the delay of a month and a half stinks too much of certain other companies. I do think a shorter delay would be possible.
<tmahmood> Can ubuntu installer use graphical mode?
<Kamion> tmahmood: -> #ubuntu
<Seveas> tmahmood, this is not a support channel
<aboe> just a question maybe, if dapper is postponed 6 weeks, but dapper+1 needs the development time, isn't it possible to do both at the same time...
<sabdfl> http://pastebin.co.uk/501
<sabdfl> sorry about hte PHP syntax
<Seveas> sabdfl, paste.ubuntu-nl.org ;)
<ogra> sabdfl, LP needs a pastebot ;)
<xhaker> dapper+1 need more developers/contributers, with more people it can be done in time even with this delay, 6 weeks could be asked again if there is something like this wpa blahblah that would rather be included than delayed for next release (i really think wpa is not reason for delay, and i know it's not)
<Aelor> sabdfl, no pb i think :)
<tmahmood> oh no.. I was asking will dapper have a graphical Installer?
<mdz> ailean: while your confidence in the development team is flattering, I can't agree
<dholbach> aboe: that question was answered this morning already, no, it requires to much manpower
<Aelor> tmahmood, not the time to ask new things
<Kyral> tmahmood: -> #ubuntu+1
<sabdfl> tmahmood: 
<aboe> ok
<aboe> thanks dholbach 
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> quick answers...
<sabdfl> hardawayd: WPA is a top user request, but we have no straightforward way to implement
<sabdfl> i will review any community contributions
<sabdfl> (and ask the TB to do so)
<sabdfl> so if you can get a posse organised and get something to review, we can consider it
<sagarab> i agree to the principle of more polish is a good thing... but do we also agree what exactly and how much we want to polish... do we have any specific targets or its more like test-fix-test-fix cycle??
<Danster> since we're speaking about polishing.. what about i18n/l10n updates? are they going to be accepted during this delay? for example, russian kubuntu is in a pretty crappy state, being ~70% english
<sabdfl> in the absence of an organised community effort, it will not happen in Dapper, but is feasible in Dapper+1
<mdz> sagarab: the targets were laid out in the email proposing the delay
<sabdfl> Danster: yes, l10n is open throughout
<cmk1337> sabdfl, check this thread http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=139334&highlight=NetworkManager, nm packages that support wpa and work for me are in there
<Seveas> Danster, that is ongoing work and yes, l10n polish is high priority
<Polmac> just out of interest, which parts of dapper would be in more need of the six-week delay?
<Xanadu> sabdfl: What do your existing enterprise customers say they want ito delay vs quality?
<sabdfl> cmk1337: please mail me, mark@ubuntu.com
<sagarab> thanks mdz was aware of that. was just wondering if there was more to it
<sabdfl> Xanadu: quality
<dholbach> sagarab: apart from that http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
<sagarab> thanks dholbach
<sabdfl> Kamion: i agree on the risk of exhausting our core team and motu
<_ion> Also concerning the new network-manager: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=144081
<Seveas> sabdfl, my pm tabs are filled with request to have a sort-of baby-dapper on april 20
<sabdfl> i hope, though, that the extra time will actually make things a bit more sane
<ailean> will this delay lead to a longer development cycle in the future or is that going to remain the same?
<dholbach> _ion: we decided on a process for that already
<juliux> Seveas, +1
<Kyral> Seveas++
<sivang> can we have someone/TB/someones to review specs/ goal that missed FF, that might get completed over the delay period? or is this a no go from maturity POV?
<cyphase> Seveas, +1
<Burgwork> Seveas, if we push the beta on that day
<sabdfl> i think the team would find it requires superhuman effort to test everything to long-term-support levels by april 20
<cmk1337> sabdfl, will do, thanks
<Stormx2> sabdfl: *you're* mark?
<natroll> Seveas, ++1
<subsonic_shadow> people who want a baby dapper can download flight 5, no?
<mdz> sivang: already answered that twice
<Xanadu> sabdfl: "quality" - doesn't that answer the question then?
<sabdfl> so, while there's new work, the six week delay is time to do that gracefully, without hurting any of us
<siretart> sabdfl: re wpa: I have prepared with crimsun and kel modderman a new wpasupplicant package which integrates nicely in /etc/network/interfaces. I think it shouldn't be hard to integrate that to gnome-system-tools
<sivang> mdz: okay, sorry.
<jdub> having a super-beta on april 20 would be cool; something we can strongly recommend the community upgrade to
<sabdfl> Xanadu: prefer longer term quality than the april 20 date
<ogra> subsonic_shadow, flight 7 :)
<trappist> if i18n and l10n issues are a major reason for considering the delay, can't updates to those be pushed post-release as bugfixes?
<sabdfl> jdub: +1
<dholbach> can we agree on answering *one* questions at a time? :)
<Kyral> lol
<ruben>  jdub: +1
<jjesse> couldn't you call in it a community technology preview :)
<juliux> jdub, +1
<Seveas> it's going almost pear-shaped
<Kamion> trappist: some can, some can't; those that need to go in shipped CD images can't, for example
<ploum> jdub++  
<sabdfl> siretart: get cracking, let's focus on other issues here
<jdub> besides, i want my birthday present.
<ltibor65> sabdfl, how many people work on the developing of Dapper?
<Seveas> people, random +1 and offtopicness won't help
<ogra> jdub++
<raphink> Seveas: ++
<raphink> ;)
<olive> jdub: +1
<Rehto> *a curious pclinuxos user comes to check this out*
<sabdfl> bimberi: you're absolutely right that we will be judged against the rationale for the delay
<Stormx2> Seveas: ++
<sabdfl> we have the l10n team here working hard on Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Thai
<theoddone> more on-topic ! what about incremental but unpredictable releases of ubuntu desktop and fixed predictable releases of ubuntu server and enterprise desktop ?
<sabdfl> we will shortly call for contributions for other tricky but important languages
<Seveas> theoddone, please....
<jdub> bimberi: there is actually a really good message in the rationale for the delay, something that speaks well of ubuntu, despite the slip
<ploum> the important thing about a "super-beta" is that we can recommend it to anybody and will not "maybe destroy your computer"
<Seveas> don't make me +mi the chat
<sabdfl> we have made good progress in understanding what's needed to help make those languages work well
<bimberi> jdub: agreed!
<sabdfl> with good community support, testing, and contributions we will be able to get a LOT done with the new release date
<sabdfl> also, Rosetta now has most of dapper uploaded
<Seveas> sabdfl, yay!
<natroll> ok, what about just releasing a dist-upgrade package on the 20th, then release the cds on the release date 6 weeks off
<sabdfl> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+translations iirc
<sivang> sabdfl: you have RTL langa on your mind as well ? :)
<sivang> s/langa/languages/
<dholbach> natroll: dist-upgrade worked around 3-4 days after breezy release already :)
<tmahmood> need more better support for Bengali language. when I open a Bengali website its a complete mass
<cyphase> Seveas, "yay!" isn't much better then "+1" ;)
<sabdfl> sivang: yes, please chat with daf or mvo to make sure hebrew, arabic and others work well
<xhaker> Seveas: the question about developer number was pretty in context... with more developers dapper+1 might be release without much delay
<subsonic_shadow> imo, take the 6 weeks, I've seen to many companies rush stuff (specially game developpers) and they delivered a craptastic game
<natroll> dholbach, well, to 'publicize it' i mean then :)
<dholbach> tmahmood: this is not the time to complains about bugs.
<sivang> sabdfl: sure thing, I will see what else we can add there from IM aspect.
<sabdfl> highvoltage: good point, i will call for more discussion on large planned deployments later
<natroll> dholbach, as a consolation of sorts
<sabdfl> Tonio_: yes, we plan to integrate KDE 3.5.2 but that does depend on KDE getting it done on time
<sabdfl> ironically
<tmahmood> well this delay is for fixing some bugs right?
<Xanadu> why not release preflight on 20th and make it clear to the "community" that it's what would have been released on that date, and to expect big update if they can't wait 6 weeks. 
<Tonio_> sabdfl: sure ;) thanks for the response !
<sabdfl> janimo: im very keen to see XFCE well polished, so the slip will help us consider XFCE for main
<dholbach> tmahmood: yes, but we're not here to list our favourite bugs
<Kyral> dholbach has scheduled a HUG day for this Friday....
<mdz> tmahmood: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-March/000094.html
<raphink> sabdfl: well KDE 3.5.2 is planned for a this week or so, so it should be on time for dapper ;)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+m]  by Seveas
<Seveas> please people
<Seveas> sabdfl is answering the comments
<sabdfl> Kamion: will also call for discussion on Dapper+1
<Seveas> all the offtopicness makes it hard to follow
<sabdfl> (and BTW need animal names for E..)
<Seveas> do NOT list/repeat your favourite issues
<sabdfl> ok
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-m]  by Seveas
<sabdfl> that's quick answers to the things folks raised earlier
<natroll> Early Echidna
<sabdfl> there are some "discussion" topics that i'd like to call for comments on
<sabdfl> Early... :-)
<natroll> hehe :D
<Kyral> heheh
<sabdfl> first, highvoltage's "large scale planned deployments"
<sabdfl> is anyone here planning a large deployment of Dapper before June?
<natroll> better than Ergonomic Elephant, i suppose :D
<cyphase> Electric Eel
* Seveas raises hand
<Seveas> natroll, cyphase stop!
<sabdfl> that cannot be delayed
<Xanadu> SARS might
* sabdfl stays seveas hand...
<ailean> what is large scale??
<sabdfl> folks, i did not call for animal names HERE :-)
<Seveas> sabdfl, I have several intro-courses planned in May
<ogra> sabdfl, as i said earlier, edubuntu specifics would be in place on 20th and be ready to freeze, but that doesnt saver from changes in the ubuntu core 
* highvoltage reminds users who have recendly joined to read /topic before posting anything
<sabdfl> large-scale would be hundreds+
<Seveas> sabdfl, the were moved from april to may for dapper cd's
<ailean> then no
* Kyral highly reccommends a channel for meeting comments....
<Seveas> expecting 100+ users
<Xanadu> Sars=South African Revenue Service, out for tender at the moment
<Seveas> I'm going to look like a fool 
<Kamion> as I said to ogra in /msg earlier, I do not think it is at all practical to consider derivative releases separately
<sabdfl> Seveas: we could possible send preview CD's if that helps
<Seveas> sabdfl, oh yeah
<Seveas> sabdfl, having to burn 100cd's is just too much
* ploum also expect more than 100 people to his install party because it was the case for the breezy party
<derrick81787> other than polishing certain languages, is there anything else that couldn't be changed fairly easily in an update? if not, it could be recomended that people using the fully supported languages upgrade on the 20th, and everyone else wait the 6 weeks if they wish to have a more polished version
<aboe> would love to see preview cd's
<sabdfl> Seveas: ok, i will make a plan to help you out there
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's going to take quite a lot of resources to produce CDs of quality we think is worth spending money on pressing lots of
<sabdfl> Kamion: would find a local run of Flight or beta's for Seveas
<Seveas> sabdfl, sbartleylinux wants to say something too in this regard
<linbetwin> more than 1000 users voted on ubuntuforums in favour of the delay (91%)
<Seveas> sbartleylinux, please go ahead
<Seveas> linbetwin, irrelevant
<Seveas> the CC decides - not the forum users
<Danster> sabdfl - we're already shipping our PCs with dapper.. that's about 20-30 daily
<sbartleylinux> We are a software development organization.  We are designing our next release around Ubuntu.  The current plan is to go to Alpha with our project in June on Dapper.  A delay of 6 weeks will most likely force us to rework most of our project and remain on Breezy until Dapper +1 or later.  This is not our wish at all.
<shinmen> sabdfl: I work for an ISP that has a datacenter, and I one of our clients made the comment that they planned to build a couple of racks with dapper to test them as servers. AFAIK, they did planned it before June. Aprox 30+ machines.
<sbartleylinux>  We selected Ubuntu in part due to the regular scheduled release cycle we could map to.
<mdz> derrick81787: implementing the localization changes means less time spent on QA, so we need more time to fix existing bugs as well
<sabdfl> ploum: i hear you on the installfest. how would you feel about saying "this is beta quality, automatically upgradeable, known to work in this language, no major changes expected"
<sabdfl> sbartleylinux: ok, this is important
<sbartleylinux> very much so for us.
<sabdfl> sbartleylinux: does your product ship in many languages?
<ploum> sabdfl: it could be enough but we need some minimal guaranties
<sbartleylinux> no, just english.
<yaaar> is there a middle ground here? perhaps the delay could proceed, but shorter?
<sabdfl> ploum: i expect that dapper will be very stable (as stable as breezy) by april 20
<shinmen> (In Costa Rica, in case that's important)
<sabdfl> sbartleylinux: i expect dapper to be in very good shape in english by the dates you were expecting it
<ailean> so will there be another flight by that point even if the final release isn't ready?
<libervisco> it seems to me the best solution would be to release a stable preview in time and then a final six weeks later
<sabdfl> sbartleylinux: do you touch kernel, libc, X, or gnome?
<olive> ok, so I don't have to cancell the install party of paris 
<linbetwin> seveas: but why release "baby dapper" if the community fully understands the need for the delay? it will only confuse people
<ploum> sabdfl: then it should be enough. Thank you for your answer.  Will it be possible to have an ISO image of a "guaranteed" pre-dapper on that date ?
<sbartleylinux> sabdfl, no. 
<natroll> sabdfl, what is the issue with updating the installer after the release to include the other languages?
<mdz> ploum: what sort of guarantee are you looking for?
<sabdfl> sbartleylinux: what packages do you modify in the underlying OS of your product?
<schlurchz> sabdfl: do you expect large update volumes for such an install? I consider installing on a modem-connected machine. 
<yaaar> ploum: your use of 'guarantee' in context of OSS worries me...
<ploum> mdz: you can install this image as you would have with breezy
<ploum> nothing more than that
<sabdfl> schlurchz: possibly, because even a small oo.o change is a big download
<mdz> natroll: the installer will be included on a rather large number of CDs which can't be updated after the release
<Xanadu> sabdfl: will the Chinese and other extra language support be installed as a base package? 
<schlurchz> sabdfl: thx
<mdz> ploum: breezy is stable and will receive only critical updates; we can't say the same of dapper on 20 april
<Deb> hello
<pitti> Xanadu: we will work towards out of the box support, but probably not on the CD
<sabdfl> Xanadu: no, but they need to be installed for chinese users
<giftnudel> what reason is there not to update cd's after an inital release?
<sbartleylinux> sabdfl, We add some things to xorg for configs only.  Not really anything else that I can think of and nothing that I would say is modified.
<ploum> mdz: It's not what I'm trying to say. 
<sabdfl> so they need to be high quality on the disk
<Seveas> giftnudel, they're kind-a unchangable on disk...
<ogra> giftnudel, costs 
<sabdfl> sbartleylinux: then i think you will find that dapper by april 20 is robust for your needs, in other words, i think your alpha need not be delayed
<giftnudel> yeah, but publish an updated version?
<Kamion> natroll: also rebuilding some bits of the installer after release is non-trivial; for instance it is not susceptible to language-pack-based updates
<sabdfl> sbartleylinux: please discuss with infinity your specific case, he will know better whether you may have issues
<mdz> giftnudel: we ship large numbers of CDs worldwide
<unf> I have been using dapper since flight2, with no serious problems. So why would I need "bady dapper"? 
<sbartleylinux> sabdfl, will do. thanks.
<Kamion> giftnudel: cost, QA time
<sabdfl> Xanadu: the langpacks let us update translations after release, but not things like input methods or keyboards
<yaaar> unf; do you mean for 'baby dapper' to mean more than a flight delivered on/about 4/20?
<giftnudel> ok, I see
<sabdfl> ok, any other large-scale deployment impacts?
<jdub> unf: (it's more about satisfying other users who are expecting an ubuntu release in april, and bringing on more people for testing.)
<Aelor> Xanadu, and languages packs take much place in a CD
<Xanadu> sabdfl and pitti: then english users won't see huge downloads later if they run preview release
<sabdfl> Xanadu: they might: kernel, xorg, libc, will all be getting small fixes and stability, but that means package downloads
<Xanadu> at least for the language stuff
<pitti> Xanadu: they will, many packages will be updated until the final release
<sabdfl> it should be safe to wait till release, then update in one go
<jdub> sabdfl: perhaps, one last time, it might be worth using the word 'preview' again :-)
<trappist> sabdfl: they'll get those anyway, right?
<natroll> Kamion, I understand that issue, but I guess I fail to understand the significance of the installer supporting the different languages for those who don't require those languages.  I can understand the delay in being able to order the cds by those who require unsupported languages...i guess the logistics of selecting which cds to order would be terrible too...hmm..
<sabdfl> jdub: yes, we can discuss the full schedule
<sabdfl> ok, next big topic
<sabdfl> kamion's
<sabdfl> what will the effect of a dapper delay be on dapper+1?
<rekrutacja> sabdfl, little bit offtopic: we are starting free textbooks (http://www.wolnepodreczniki.pl/, but it's just an ugly "we will be here in the future" page) project in Poland and right now we are creating tools for community. we would like to re-use ubuntu code of conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct) but we are not sure what is legal status of this text. 
<sladen> jdub: +1  I think 'preview' makes sense;  because the feature set will change, just more things will _work_ by release
<Burgwork> rekrutacja, please ask another time
<Seveas> (household notice: more l10n discussions, offtopic talk or other rambling  ban)
<rekrutacja> Burgwork, OK
<sladen> s/will/will not/
<Aelor> rekrutacja, ask on #ubuntu maybe
<sabdfl> rekrutacja: afterwards, ok?
<rekrutacja> sabdfl, OK'
<sabdfl> current thinking on dapper+1 is we should delay 2-3 weeks
<Amaranth> sabdfl: from what i've heard the best plan would be shortening the time for dapper+1, +2, and +3 two weeks each
<ogra> sabdfl++
<sabdfl> the "action plan" for dapper+1 is that it will be bottom-up "find awesome tech and bring it in" rather than top-down "these are the things we need"
<ogra> even 4 ... 
* jdub suggests shipping edgy precisely on the six month schedule mark. reduce goals to suit. strongly demonstrate the commitment to our schedule.
<ailean> do you mean 2-3 weeks on top of the usual 6 months? or 2-3 weeks on top of the original release date (6 months from the original release date of Dapper)
<yaaar> sabdfl: what's wrong with just having dapper+1 six months after dapper? just have a one-time bump and don't try to make up the lost time
<Madpilot> jdub, ++
<Aelor> jdub, +1
<Kamion> I like jdub's plan, but we need to be absolutely brutal about goals at the next conference
<MarioMeyer> jdub, ++
<Seveas> Kamion, hire fabbione as guard
<barsanuphe> jdub++
<mwt> jdub++
<sabdfl> in other words, the team will have something of a sabbatical from the tyrrany of sabdfl-imposed specs :-)
<Kamion> yaaar: pushes it a long way after the GNOME release
<theoddone> jdub +1
<Mithrandir> Kamion: to be fair, we've gotten _much_ better wrt number of goals this time around.
<Seveas> sabdfl, +1
<Kamion> Mithrandir: you might have, mr. early-goals-achiever :-P
<Xanadu> agree with yaaar - if you go completely out of sync with 6 months enterprise guys can't plan as well  
<Mithrandir> Kamion: so it could work.
<sabdfl> yaaar: we want to be close to Gnome releases again
<sabdfl> because its nice that ubuntu is the first and best place to get new gnome goodness
<sabdfl> we want to recapture that
<pitti> ++
<sivang> sabdfl++
<jdub> sabdfl: however - fedora is shipping FC5 final very close to 2.14 release date. we ship our final one month later.
<xhaker> sabdfl: more developers.. i think that's the need
<sladen> I was hoping the dapper+1 would be straight back on track.  with Dapper out, the need for a *really* stable release should be catered for I'm expecting/hoping that dapper+1 be a scramble for features and to sync back to GNOME.  It shows that Ubuntu can stick to a predictable release cycle and only makes exceptions when /really/ require.  A delayed Edgy effectively means a year to get back on track (50% of Ubuntu's existance) which is somewhat harder to 
<ailean> so surely dapper+1 will suffer without the 6 months devel time
<Lele_ete> I would like to remember that on 20 March Fedora Core 5 will be released....this delay might not shift some user from Ubuntu to fedora ?
<Seveas> sabdfl, the way I see it: Dapper is the culmination of 2 years of hard work by a growing number of people. Dapper+1 will start a new cycle which can start 'slowly' ie with less features
<Seveas> Lele_ete, completely irrelevant
<sabdfl> Kamion: do you think its realistic to reduce features for dapper+1 substantially?
<Seveas> dapper was after that already
<yaaar> so, what's the next major gnome release date?
<sabdfl> just say to guys "pick your top 2, get them approved, and the rest is sync time"?
<Seveas> yaaar, tomorrow
<mdz> Lele_ete: we will continue to make Ubuntu the best distribution we can, and users will decide based on that
<Kamion> sabdfl: I don't see why not, if we're careful
<yaaar> Seveas: oh, i knew that...i mneant the one after that
<Amaranth> yaaar: 6 months from tomorrow is 2.16
<sabdfl> i will be on a very tight leash, promise
<jdub> *DRAFT* 2.16 release schedule: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
<sabdfl> just, maybe, one or two new architectures...
<xhaker> later
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: a problem is that we've been saying that dapper is going to be boring, while Edgy Elephant is going to be shiny&bling.
<sabdfl> mdz is rolling his eyeballs
<jdub> sabdfl: please let kamion do awesome fixage on his awesome features. :-)
<yaaar> jdub: thx
<Lele_ete> I think the same....mine was a possibility
<Seveas> sabdfl, you really need to be restrained...
<sivang> sabdfl:  should this delay have any effect on integration with launchpad infrastructure? might be good to imrpove this as well if we're at it already.  </thought>
* jdub quickly puts sivang in a box.
* Seveas locks the box
<sabdfl> sivang:  we will continue to pedal as fast as possible on that front
* natroll throws out the key
<sabdfl> ok, i'm not getting much useful vibe here on dapper+1 :-)
<yaaar> is dapper going to enable turning on metacity's compositing manager, once the X drivers get texture-from-pixmap?
<Seveas> sabdfl, general consensus seems to not delay
* sabdfl catches the key. sigh
<Seveas> lots of vibe in that direction
<sivang> sabdfl: thanks :)
<Seveas> yaaar, -ETOPIC
<dholbach> yaaar: that's not appropriate here
* sivang is out of the box again.
<yaaar> sorry
<highvoltage> sabdfl: sorry, all out of ideas :(
<sabdfl> ok, we'll ask the TB to discuss this separately
<sabdfl> next
<ltibor65> Guys, why this discussion? Let the developers make Dapper better, give them six months, and until the release of Dapper use Ubuntu 5.10 which is very stable and good. With it can one make all things.
<Xanadu> beyond Gnome for a sec - what's the Ubuntu release cycle in relationship to Kubuntu?
<Amaranth> that meeting is an hour from now, right?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %ltibor65!*@*]  by Seveas
<mdz> not at the meeting tonight, though, unfortunately (sabdfl and I will be unavailable)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Xanadu!*@*]  by Seveas
<Kamion> Xanadu: identical
<jdub> i'd just like to quickly point out that GNOME did exactly this when it slipped badly a while back
<JaneW> mdz: will TB have a quorum then though?
<Seveas> please - offtopic banning is now really in effect
<JanC> Seveas: you mean not delay dapper+1  ?
<sabdfl> jdub: did what?
<barsanuphe> xanadu++
<mdz> JaneW: if both Keybuk and mjg59 attend, yes
<JaneW> mdz: ok, thanks
<jdub> sabdfl: sucked up the shorter schedule damage and got back on track. having a shorter schedule is a good punishment. :-)
<natroll> sabdfl, something has to give, the delay will make the dapper release more stable and featured, but will make it so we have to turn down the feature-set on dapper+1, which isn't what dapper+1 was supposed to be.  maybe we have to abandon the complete 'shiny&bling' mantra
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %Xanadu!*@*]  by Seveas
<Xanadu> s/Kubuntu/KDE
<natroll> maybe somewhat-shiny&kinda-blingy
<Amaranth> Xanadu: KDE has no steady release cycle, we pull in what ever is available at the time
<sabdfl> ok, TB will discuss, we can take this up later
<jdub> natroll: there's a lot of bling waiting in the wings.
<sabdfl> ok
<Riddell> Xanadu: Tonio_ already mentioned, kde (minor) release is after current beta plan, so a delay would help make sure kde 3.5.2 was in and stable
<sabdfl> time for TB / CC commentary
<pinkisntwell> an ksekiniso na kano translate apo rosetta se breezy de tha metaferthoun kai ston dapper etsi ki allios?
<sabdfl> TB?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %pinkisntwell!*@*]  by Seveas
<natroll> jdub, if it can't be completed within the schedule we want to keep, realistically, then there isn't much choice
<sabdfl> pinkisntwell: can you google translate that and paste it here please?
<Riddell> Amaranth: we use whatever fits best
<Xanadu> any idea on KDE4 maybe making it into dapper+1? might affect d+1's release schedule
<Riddell> Xanadu: not going to happen
<Seveas> sabdfl, pinkisntwell speaks english quite well - it's not at all far-fetched to assume trolling
<sabdfl> Xanadu: please, focus on the topic
<mako> CC commentary?
<sabdfl> mako: go for it
<mako> oh, you want me to comment
<aboe> dapper+1 shouldn't be delayed, XGL already in multi/universe, Beagle, so what will be new features???
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %aboe!*@*]  by Seveas
<mdz> sabdfl: I think we're the only TB members here and we've both spoken on this already
<mako> i wasn't sure who was supposed to be comment
<mako> or be commented to
<sabdfl> aboe: i'm asking for TB and CC folks to weigh in
<sabdfl> mako: go ahead (and hi!)
<libervisco> TB = TechBoard, CC = Community Council
<mako> i think i have a little conflict of interest because i'm working on the official book.. and it would be nice to have them come out around the same time :)
<Seveas> mako, as I understood, the book deadline slides along with Dapper
<sabdfl> mako: and on the same media :-)
<Lele_ete> If during the delay you update frequently the 5.10 release....the delay will be more sweet....:-)
<mako> right, but the books could be printed and such
<Kamion> I'm worried about the repeated invocations of Parkinson's Law we're seeing ("work expands to fill the time available for its completion"), and I'm not sure if we're going to manage to keep a lid on that without locking down the archive (which is not practical for a six-week duration)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Lele_ete!*@*]  by Seveas
<Kamion> I'm somewhat mollified if we bring dapper+1 back onto schedule, though; that will reduce negative PR impact a lot
* mako nods to Kamion 
<Kamion> especially if we announce it along with announcing a delay
<ailean> agreed
<sabdfl> Kamion: so you're in favour of dapper+1 being in October, as originally planned?
<Kamion> sabdfl: yeah
<sabdfl> i think with the benefit of hindsight i would have proposed 8 months dapper, 4 months dapper+1 in Montreal
<sagarab> agree with kamion
<mako> if folks who are going to have the biggest headaches are alright with a plan to bring dapper+1 back on schedule, i think that's ideal
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> mako: any non-book comments? upstream impact?
<elmo> I'm not unhappy about dapper's delay, as I think it could definitely benefit from some more bugfix time, but like kamion, I'd like to see dapper+1 back on schedule
<ploum> elmo++
<Aelor> agree
<mako> sabdfl: i don't see a huge negative impact now that these meeting have been held and opinions voiced have been considered
<ploum> if not, I'm afraid to see a time translation
<Kamion> I'd like to make sure it actually *is* bug-fix time - maybe explicitly allocate some developers to trawling malone for fixes
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> i'm less concerned with what the decision is than how it is made
<mako> and i think this is the right way to make it
<hunger> ssshs
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %hunger!*@*]  by Seveas
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> I mean more widely that people's individual package maintenance
* ploum wishes he could, one day, says something as insightful as mako did
<sabdfl> ok, can we ask TB to discuss the full ramifications of a delay (what happens to beta, preview, freeze exceptions, art, ui, doc freezes)
<sabdfl> also, further discussion on dapper+1
<hub> elmo++
<sabdfl> my vote is for dapper+1 to catch up hard
<ailean> when will a decision be made?
<sabdfl> with the proviso that we consider the sync time and not kill everybody
<libervisco> suggestions: preview in time, final dapper in 6 weeks, dapper+1 four months later (in time)
<sabdfl> if we have to take two releases to catchup, that's better than finishing folks off
<sabdfl> libervisco: join the TB meeting
* mako nods sabdfl definitely
<libervisco> sabdfl, where?
<Seveas> libervisco, here - in an hour
<mdz> libervisco: here
<libervisco> hm I'm actually not really involved with Ubuntu, just observing :)
<libervisco> but ok :)
<Amaranth> You'd have to know the main goals for dapper+1 before knowing if chopping 6 weeks off it's schedule will kill someone. But if these goals haven't been set yet (except in broad terms) then there should be no problem, people will just have to take that into consideration when setting goals.
<sagarab> votes for 6 week delay with dapper with d+1 bang on schedule
<GFDL> what does TB mean? (sorry for the stupid question :()
<natroll> TechBoard
<GFDL> oh! thanks natroll
<natroll> np :D
<ailean> i'd vote for that too - if votes are being counted . . .
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> thank you everybody for coming along
<Kamion> Amaranth: we've yet to decide the goals, and can take schedule changes into account
<sabdfl> seveas, can i ask you to summarise?
<natroll> sabdfl, our pleasure :D
<ogra> if we really want to do that i'd vote for rather 4 weeks delay of dapper
<Seveas> sabdfl, I'll add it to the existing summary 
<roshan_> Instead of catching up, why not track Gnome 2.x.2 instead of the .0 release, since they are more stable?
<sabdfl> after the TB has dedicated some time to this, we'll have a meeting with TB and CC to take a final view on the roadmap
<mdz> roshan_: we track .1 currently
<Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for anwering all questions/responding to all comments
<sabdfl> NOW please send animal name suggestions for E to seveas' wiki page
<ogra> haha
<Seveas> http://wiki.kaarsemaker.net/UbuntuNames
<Amaranth> So I take it this extension is going to seriously overlap with debconf?
* sivang wonders when/how Edgy was coined.
<jordi> roshan: .2 doesn't add much more to .1, generally
<Seveas> PLEASE RESPECT THE EDITLOCK!
<ompaul> we did we are in trouble  Evangelising Elk
<sabdfl> sivang: not coined. minted. now shush :-)
<Kamion> Amaranth: http://debconf6.debconf.org/
<sabdfl> thank you all
<sabdfl> good night and... good luck :-)
<mdz> good night, all
<mako> is there's a very-soon meeting i should be at, someone please send me an SMS
<alex-weej> am i too late for the biscuits?
<ogra> ciao sabdfl/mdz
<Tonio_> sabdfl: pleasure !
<sabdfl> mako: it's TB
<Seveas> mako, CC next week (time to be decided)
<dippie> I wanted to comment and edited my comment but the discussion was so fast and didn't want to interrupt anyone
<sagarab> thks all and good night
<libervisco> night sabdfl, mdz 
<sabdfl> but if you can i need someone to stand in for me
<sabdfl> happy for you to
<dippie> can I still paste now?
<mako> ok, great
<Seveas> oh Kamion elmo  mako sabdfl since you're all here: decide on a time please ;)
<IceBreak> when is the 2nd meeting?
<Seveas> dippie, meeting is over, feel free to paste in my PM
<Jergar> I vote for drunken Guinea Pig :-)
<Seveas> IceBreak, this was the second
<dippie> ok
<IceBreak> in how many hours ?
<sabdfl> Seveas: we have to run, we are late
<Tonio_> IceBreak: 45 minutes
<IceBreak> oh really ? blah :(
<Amaranth> Kamion: So for the last two weeks of the extended period most of you will be at debconf?
<Kamion> Amaranth: sort of the middle two weeks
<sabdfl> Seveas: thanks very much for keeping us on track
<sabdfl> night
<Seveas> If anybody sent me a PM during the meeting and expects answers: yell now
<IceBreak> what was decided?
<Amaranth> Nothing, yet.
<yonatan> lol
<Seveas> IceBreak, nothing - TB/CC will decide
<sivang> Seveas: can you please set the exact time on the TB meeting that follows at the topic? kthx ;-)
<Amaranth> That's what the next meeting is for.
<IceBreak> and where is mark ? :)
<Amaranth> sleeping
<Amaranth> even dictators need sleep ;)
<IceBreak> what was his nick in the logs?
<Tonio_> IceBreak: mark = sabdfl
<jordi> well he's not sleeping, I can assure that. :)
<Seveas> ok, time for cleaning up in here
<JanC> Amaranth: sleeping would be early  ;)
<libervisco> IceBreak, sabdfl 
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-ooo fabbione Kamion ogra]  by Seveas
<yonatan> aw aww awww...
<Amaranth> JanC: ah, i don't know what timezone he is in
<Xanadu> ta Seveas for chairing (despite numerous bannings ;))
<IceBreak> i wanna join his company :)
<IceBreak> j/k
<yonatan> only just seen that the meeting is now, and it's just finished...
<ogra> Amaranth, london
<libervisco> hehe
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<yonatan> is it too late to butt in with my 0.02$
<yonatan> ?
<ailean> yep :)
<Amaranth> yonatan: yes
<libervisco> I really like this way of doing things.. 
<yonatan> yea, thought so...
<ogra> Xanadu, btw, what gave you the impression edubuntu had planned 2 NIC support ? it was never on the list for dapper
<JanC> Amaranth: he's in London, about 19h15 there  ;-)
<Xanadu> ogra: wasn't me
<ogra> ah, k
<Seveas> @unload ChannelRelay
<yonatan> ach well, I'll wait for the forums discussion.
<Seveas> @part #ubuntu-overflow
<Amaranth> Seveas: neat bot
<JanC> Amaranth: at least AFAIK ;)
<Amaranth> Seveas: custom job?
<Amaranth> JanC: i figured he switched a lot, like mako :)
<Seveas> Amaranth, supybot with stock and homegrown plugins
<JanC> Amaranth: mako is @ MIT...
<IceBreak> was there a poll ?
<Seveas> Amaranth, the bugtracker is largely homegrown
<IceBreak> what was the general mood ?
<IceBreak> for postponing or not ?
<JanC> (Boston)
<Seveas> IceBreak, there was no poll, neither will there be one
<highvoltage> IceBreak: wasn't a poll, more of an information gathering
<highvoltage> IceBreak: the mood was relaxed and rational
<Amaranth> JanC: yeah, but it seems like every time i talk to him he is in a different place
<highvoltage> IceBreak: most people feel positive about the meeting, i think it went very well
<Seveas> Amaranth, not at all unlikely
<Seveas> he's quite a traveller
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-n]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-t]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+n]  by Seveas
<libervisco> well it's easy to switch from place to place in a private jet ;)
<JanC> IceBreak: I think 6 weeks delay for dapper, but dapper+1 on time was the general mood
<IceBreak> and most ppl want to postpone it ?
<Xanadu> IceBreak: It will be up to the Tech Forum and Community Council
<sivang> okay, almost 45 minuts more to hack until next meeting,.
<sivang> .
<sivang> laters all
<yonatan> ciao
<highvoltage> IceBreak: i don't think anyone wants to compromise on quality for something that needs to be supported for 5 years
<libervisco> woo mass quitting :)
<Seveas> good
<roshan_> Does anybody know when the CC and TB meetings are? And are they world-readable?
<IceBreak> so why support for 5 years ? and whats wrong with patching ?
<ogra> roshan_, here 
<dip|aw> CDs are wrong with patching
<Seveas> the TB meeting is NOT meant for reiterating todays community meeting
<JanC> roshan_: they are here, but please don't interfere...
<Seveas> it is open to watch and participate - but mainly for discussions between developers
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-bbbb %hunger!*@* %Lele_ete!*@* %aboe!*@* %pinkisntwell!*@*]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %ltibor65!*@*]  by Seveas
<roshan_> Only want to observe, but when are they?
<giftnudel> look at the topic
<Amaranth> TB in 40 minutes
<enyc> Seveas: {where is the notes writen / wiki etc. based on logs/from this meeting?
<JanC> enyc: notes aren't ready yet I suppose  ;)
<Seveas> enyc, not written yet, but will be on DapperDelayMeetingProcess and pages linked from it
<Xanadu> http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log for log (includes this morning's meeting)
<Seveas> Xanadu, complete logs are linked from the wiki too
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+m]  by Seveas
<Seveas> there's no meeting now - i'd appreciate it if anyone who does not want to participate in the TB meeting later would just leave 
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+v Nafallo_away]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-v Nafallo]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-f]  by Seveas
<Seveas> The TB meeting will begin in ~18 minutes. This meeting is NOT MEANT to repeat suggestions/comments/questions about postponing Dapper Drake - DO NOT DO THAT
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : The TB meeting is NOT MEANT to repeat suggestions/comments/questions about postponing Dapper Drake - DO NOT DO THAT | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-m]  by Seveas
<fstat> ?
<Cached> Please do not speak in here. It fills up the logs. Thank you.
<fstat> and where should I speak?
<Cached> #ubuntu, #ubuntu-offtopic, anywhere but here until tb meeting begins
<ogra> Cached, that was only relevant between the twoo meetings today ... (but indeed that channel ist for general chatter)
<Cached> There is yet another meeting in four minutes, is there not?
<mjg59> Tech board
<ogra> Cached, yes, a regular TB meeting
<Keybuk> TB meeting will be in 3 minutes, take your typing/workrave breaks now :)
<Seveas> ogra, Keybuk: I expect lots of offtopicness from unknowing users who stayed after the meeting - should I play 'bad police guy' and mute them so it doesn't interfere with the meeting?
<Keybuk> Seveas: please
<GFDL> when can I send question to you seveas? after the meeting begins?
<Seveas> ok so consider yourself warned everybody - the TB meeting is not for general questions from the community
<GFDL> oh!
<GFDL> ok
<Seveas> if you interfere with the meeting you WILL be muted/banned/pitied by Mr. T
<raphink> hehe
<Seveas> general questiions can be sent to my via private message
<raphink> GFDL: this is a public meeting anyway, so you can stay and watch :)
<Cached> it is for input from the community though, is it not?
<Seveas> Cached, no
<Keybuk> Cached: if items are on the agenda, yes
<Keybuk> otherwise no
<Seveas> those meetings were earlier today
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> by my clock, it is now 8pm
<GFDL> ok
<Cached> So we just get to watch them have all the fun?
<Keybuk> sabdfl and mdz are aware today, so I'm driving
<Keybuk> mjg59 is here, so we are quorate
<mjg59> s/aware/away/
<Keybuk> uh, yes
<Keybuk> I didn't say my driving was any good :)
<raphink> yes it's o'clock now
<Keybuk> IMPORTANT NOTE
<Keybuk> THIS IS NOT A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE DAPPER DELAY
<mjg59> Ok. There's a lot on the agenda. What order are we going to take this in?
<Keybuk> If you wanted to attend those meetings, you missed them, sorry;  read the IRC logs and posted summaries to find out what happened
<Keybuk> We'll be going down the usual TB agenda, and if your hot topic isn't on there ... *now* ... please wait until the end of the meeting
<ogra> wow, sladen owns the agenda
<Keybuk> mjg59: top-down I guess
<raphink> hehe
<Keybuk> unless there is anyone here who has an agenda item and needs to make a fast exit?
<Kamion> I'd like to get away soon, but I'm early on the agenda anyway
<Keybuk> Kamion: let's do you first then, as I think we have a few candiates today
<Keybuk> floor is yours
<ogra> i think the first topic is a no brainer
<Kamion> "Should we produce new installer and CD images for this [WWW]  serious installer vulnerability? At present, users installing Breezy must make sure to upgrade from -security before adding any other local users, which I think will result in a number of vulnerable systems in practice. On the other hand, it's not as if we can rev shipit CDs at this point."
<Kamion> link being http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-262-1, in case anyone somehow managed to miss it
<GFDL> Kamion, I wanted to ask that too in todays meeting
<Kamion> so, we regained a fair bit of the enormously bad press from the vulnerability by doing a same-day fix
<Kamion> a number of people asked whether we'd be making updated images available
<Keybuk> Kamion: how much work would it be to make updated images?
<Keybuk> I guess only -install matters?
<sladen> Kamion: if the CD images are just a rebuild, yes.  If shipit CDs are going to continue being posted through the 6-week extension, yes.  And if not, other people like cheeplinux and private pressers may benefit
<Kamion> I chatted briefly to mdz about it, and he said he didn't see a great need, but didn't really clarify why
<ogra> Kamion, would be helpful for iso downloaders, dapper is still not stable, so we'd save people from the bug
<Kamion> I don't have a good reason not to other than "might be a fair bit of work", which I don't think really cuts it for a problem this serious
<mjg59_> Network problems appear at the most inopportune moments
<Kamion> frankly
<ogra> the prob i see is an out-of-sync with shipit
<Kamion> Keybuk: yes, -live isn't affected
<ogra> since we wont press new ones
<Kamion> ogra: that's a downside, but we can label it clearly
<Kamion> Keybuk: there is a certain amount of faff involved
<mjg59_> What is the shipit process? Are they actually pressed in large batches, or more on an on-demand basis?
<Kamion> if I'm going to fix it properly, we need to somehow get a rebuild of debian-installer into breezy-updates
<pitti> Kamion: can't we give the updated CD a new version number?
<sladen> Kamion: could you take the previous CD and just hack it with the fixed package, rather than building completely fresh CDs from the archive with all the other updates on them?
<minghua> I think releasing a CD with different name (5.10a?) also raise the awareness of said bug
<minghua> which is good
<Kamion> pitti: that's part of labelling
<pitti> Kamion: so that we don't change the original images?
<pitti> ah
<Kamion> sladen: that's bloody hard work in this case and I won't
<ajmitch> Kamion: would it solely be this fix included, or others from breezy-updates?
<Keybuk> my gut says that because the vulnerability is in the installer, there's more of a reason to update the CDs than the usual security reasons
<Kamion> er, breezy-security not breezy-updates I mean
<Kamion> ajmitch: breezy-security, and probably a roll-up of all fixes to date
<fooishbar> D
<fooishbar> (sorry.)
<Kamion> which may not be a bad thing anyway
<sladen> Kamion: bloody hard work --- rebuilding the whole CD, or just replacing the broken package?
<mjg59_> Kamion: I think from a PR point of view, it would be advantageous to avoid shipping CD images we know to have a major problem
<pitti> I got several mails and IRC questions about when we'll release new CDs, so users expect it
<mjg59_> The shipit problem is presumably insurmountable, so should just be ignored in this case
<Kamion> so, the hard bit is that the correct fix for this problem is spread over a lot of places
<Kamion> there are core problems in cdebconf, which I've fixed in d-i svn
<Kamion> fixing those also requires rebuilding debian-installer (to update the initrd)
<dholbach> if we (or should I say Kamion) was to do this, we could put all securityfixes in to such a release CD - but we didn't really do "security CDs" before, so I don't see the need why we should do it now
<mjg59> Keybuk: Should we do the more pressing stuff ahead of the candidate review?
<Kamion> initial-passwd-udeb should be fixed to make sure to clear out the password from the database
<ogra> dholbach, because the flaw is somewhat bigger ...
<Kamion> and prebaseconfig and installation-report need to be changed to make the logs world-unreadable
<ogra> and it might get us good press as well ...
<pitti> dholbach: well, it leaves a trivial gaping root hole for peopel who install from CDs; it's the worst hole we had so far
<Kamion> dholbach: it's harder *not* to include everything else in breezy-security than it is just to include it
<mjg59_> Kamion: Are there any especially awkward problems, or is it just something that takes time?
<Keybuk> My vote is to update the CDs, I think; it seems prudent
<Kamion> sladen: fixes in lots of places, would have to establish a well-publicised source repository somewhere to satisfy GPL etc. - less work to just punt through breezy-security frankly
<dholbach> Kamion: I see, then it'd make sense to discuss a security release.
<ogra> Keybuk++
<sladen> my worry is that the new package set will be larger than the CD size, meaning that you have to drop something and the package set != to the previous Breezy install set
<Kamion> I realise we've not done a security CD before, and we hoped we wouldn't have to
<Kamion> which is why I brought it up here
<Keybuk> Kamion: we may end up doing them for dapper, given its long support cycle; it could be a good test
<ogra> yeah
<pitti> keybuk was faster with typing, my thought
<Kamion> mjg59_: figuring out how to get debian-installer into breezy-security will be the only really hard bit; I may have to talk to cprov and Kinnison for that
<zeus> what would be involved in a security cd release ?
<Moox> Dapper desktop will be suported during 3 years. Does this mean there will be only security updates on apps and no big update ? (eq gaim 1.5->2.0)
<ogra> zeus, mainly Kamion 
<Keybuk> zeus: Kamion has just covered that
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %moox!*@*]  by Seveas
<Kamion> zeus: rebuild CDs with packages from breezy + breezy-security, test lots and lots
<Keybuk> Moox: that is off topic; please see the Ubuntu wiki for the answer to that question
<mjg59_> Kamion: Ok. If this is something that would potentially have to be done in the dapper timeframe /anyway/, it seems reasonable
<mjg59> I think security images/scheduling/candidate review/everything else might be a plan
<mjg59_> I think I'm with keybuk - it sounds like we ought to do this
<Kamion> we're putting in a number of changes now to make this whole class of vulnerability impossible in the future, but obviously I wouldn't like to entirely rule out the possibility of some other serious flaw
<Seveas> Kamion, if you need help testing the install CD - poke me
<Keybuk> Kamion: are you happy to do it?  Feel free to rope in anyone else to help (including me, given I have all three archs)
<mjg59_> Anyone have any violent objections?
<Kamion> I'm happy to do the code changes, but given my other responsibilities I will only have time for cursory testing
<pitti> I'm happy to help out with testing
<ogra> me too
<sladen> it's more than a bit embarassing that the CDs going out from the factory still have that hole on them.  We're lucky, if this was Microsoft, they would have to have destoried all the stocked CDs so far and start again
<Kamion> sladen: point taken; let me just check sizes
<kbrooks> hi.
<kbrooks> ping.
<Keybuk> sladen: I'll talk to Jane about whether we can replace the ISO images they have
<Kamion> sladen: we have between 5MB and 33MB free on CD images, varying by architecture
<mjg59_> sladen: That's not entirely true. Windows CDs with critical security flaws have been shipped before
<Kamion> in breezy
<Keybuk> iirc. ship-it operates in on-demand batches, so it may be possible to do it; I'm not sure when the breezy run stops though
<mjg59_> (known critical security flaws)
<kbrooks> can someone summarize the meeting for me?
<pitti> Kamion: I can't remember any security update that changed the size of the packages *apart* from firefox
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %kbrooks!*@*]  by Seveas
<Kamion> I think we're probably safe - it seems unlikely that we would manage to suck up 5MB
<Kamion> kbrooks: logs are available on the web, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/
<Kamion> irclogs/
<pitti> right, even ffox 1.0.7->1.0.8 had only trivial changes
<raphink> kbrooks: the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<sladen> Kamion: excellent.
<pitti> erm, -1 on both
<Kamion> pitti: ?
<mjg59_> Ok. I think we've come to a consensus here.
<sladen> pitti: -1 on which and which?
<pitti> Kamion: I meant, it was 1.0.6->1.0.7, not 1.0.8
<Kamion> ok
<pitti> sorry for the confusion
<Keybuk> Kamion: you can name the CD version how you see fit :)
<mjg59> Kamion: You here?
<Kamion> yes
<enyc> I would like to wonder the possibilities of ubuntu cds essentially being autogenerated... so they can be autogenerated with 'all secutrity updates relating to apckages in the base install CD'.... ;-)
<mjg59_> Kamion: Sorry, my other session has finally caught up
<Kamion> enyc: sorry, at present I sit with a magnet building the CD images by hand on a hard disk
<raphink> enyc: that means md5sums are not fixed with release then
<Keybuk> ok, let's move on
<Kamion> takes bloody forever, I can tell you
<mjg59_> Right. Dapper rescheduling?
<enyc> Kamion: I see I seee ;-)   skay no matter ;-)
<Keybuk> so Kamion can go play
<XderalteX> Hi, what was the result of the meeting about postponing dapper?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %XderalteX!*@*]  by Seveas
<Kamion> ok, thanks guys
<Keybuk> mjg59_: I think mdz/sabdfl want to postpone that to a combined meeting with the CC
<mjg59_> Keybuk: Ugh. Right. Any idea when?
<zeus> Keybuk, CC ??
<Kamion> enyc: (in other words, they already are autogenerated)
<Keybuk> given neither of them are here, and they haven't yet announced a decision wrt to the delay, I don't see how we can talk about it :)
<Keybuk> mjg59_: none
<mjg59_> Ok. Candidate review?
<Keybuk> "sabdfl fails to turn up for his own agenda item" :)
<Kamion> Mark would like the TB to look at freeze scheduling changes for dapper if the delay is accepted
<ogra> mjg59_, sladen ? 
<enyc> Kamion: ok ;-)
<Kamion> before the CC/TB combined discussion
<Keybuk> sladen: weren't you approved already?
<sladen> Keybuk: to the best of my memory, yes
<ogra> Keybuk, but not in LP
<ogra> it slipped through i guess ...
<Kamion> it predated ubuntu-core-dev management in LP
<sladen> "somebody dropped lost key"
<Keybuk> Kamion: ok, we'll do that after candidates then
<Keybuk> raphink: ping?
<raphink> pong
* raphink is Raphal Pinson
<raphink> I've got an introduction text on my application here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson#head-afebebcae54ad32367aef6746d6e83eb22da8218
<ogra> two liner ? 
<raphink> to make it short
<raphink> I am currently an active MOTU, particularly in Kubuntu. Lately, I have been focusing on fixing bugs and improving the Kubuntu desktop, working actively with AnthonyMercatante as the Kubuntu French MOTU Team (hehe). This implies working with packages in main, and getting them sponsored for upload afterwards.
<raphink> There are not that many Kubuntu MOTUs but in order to help the current lack of Kubuntu core-devs I would like to apply for core-dev at this time. 
<raphink> I cannot be clearer: the main reason why I'm applying is to unblock uploads to main in Kubuntu, because I want Dapper to rock hard! 
<Keybuk> Riddell: are you here?
<Riddell> I support raphink 
<raphink> :)
<Riddell> he's been forwarding me fixes to packages in main
<Riddell> and I've been blocking when I've been busy with other stuff
<ogra> raphink, are you aware that you can touch *every* package in main then, even the kernel etc ? 
<raphink> yes ogra
<ogra> and do you feel ready to do that ? 
<Riddell> his fixes rarely need any changes, he's always very thourough
<raphink> ogra: I think as the MOTU team leader you know my habbit is to aask questions before doing things I dont know 
<raphink> I will never release a fix without asking the opinion of other people and testing it
* raphink spend hours testing kde fixes before giving them up to riddell lately
<raphink> s/spend/spent/
<ogra> raphink, i trust your packaging, dont worry ... i just wanted to point out the big responsibility that comes with main rights
<Keybuk> ogra: your tone sounds like you don't support his application?
<ogra> Keybuk, i do 
<raphink> ogra: i'm totally aware of this responsability
<raphink> :)
<Keybuk> how's his work with MOTU been?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : The TB meeting is NOT MEANT to repeat suggestions/comments/questions about postponing Dapper Drake - DO NOT DO THAT - you will be muted | Logs of the dapper meeting: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
<ogra> Keybuk, raphnik has reviewed way more packages than i did before applying for main 
<raphink> I've been involved in reviewing since before being a MOTU
<Keybuk> ok
<ogra> he does good packages and givers good suggestions on REVU
<ogra> *gives
<Keybuk> your application is very thorough, I must say; I've got no questions for you :)
<dholbach> yes, he did awesome work, was proactive, helped people out.
<Keybuk> mjg59_: any questions?
<mjg59_> No, I think I'm happy
<Keybuk> ok, let's vote then
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<mjg59_> Having more work on KDE in main would be good, it's certainly lagging behind in integration
<mjg59_> +1
<ogra> welcome raphink :)
<raphink> :D :D
<raphink> tanks guys :)
<raphink> thanks
<pitti> welcome raphink 
<Keybuk> I'm assuming Joel Bryan is not here?
<Seveas> congratz raphink 
<RAPIST> so are they going to delay the release?
<dholbach> rocknroll, congratulations raphink
<sivang> whee!
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %RAPIST!*@*]  by Seveas
* sivang high fives raphink 
<dholbach> RAPIST: wrong meeting
<Surak> congrats raphink
<david`bgk> congrats raphink 
<raphink> thanks Seveas,pitti ogra sivant Surak:)
<ogra> :)
<freeflying-ibook> congrats raphink
<mjg59_> Ok.
<raphink> thanks freeflying-ibook && good luck :)
<mjg59_> Do we have Joel Bryan?
<ogra> desnt look like
<dholbach> mjg59_: I'll mail him.
<mjg59_> Ok.
<mjg59_> MOTU?
<crimsun> it doesn't look like he is
<mjg59_> Who's new since last time?
<ogra> daf ?
<mjg59_> daf appears to be missing...
<lotusleaf> hi :)
<minghua> I am new, I added myself for approval just yesterday :-)
<sladen> he was around an hour ago
* minghua is Ming Hua
<Kamion> mjg59_: you are ideally placed to hunt him down, surely
* dholbach pinged daf
<mjg59_> Kamion: He's sprinting
<sivang> launchpad sprint
<sivang> I suppose
<Keybuk> minghua: ok, tell us why you'd like to join the MOTU :)
<DapperxDrake> so are they going to delay the dapper release or what?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %*!*@c-68-39-96-226.hsd1.nj.comcast.net]  by Seveas
<jjesse> some people just don't learn  :)
<Seveas> DapperDrake, see /topic - wrong time
<minghua> okay, I have been working with other MOTUs for a few months, and I've been doing merges, transitions, bugfixes
<minghua> my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MingHua, launchpad https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
<Kamion> DapperxDrake: barging into meetings and asks off-topic questions is rude. You wouldn't do it in real life, would you?
<Keybuk> can you give some examples of the areas you've been working on, and what you'd like to work on next?
<Kamion> s/asks/asking/
<ogra> dsaa, edmota, jdong, JohnnyMast, minghua, freeflying and jjmmma are the candidates i think
<ogra> please speak up if you are here 
<Seveas> ogra, JohnnyMast - lol....
<minghua> I am applying MOTU so that I can upload my fixes directly, mostly for scim related packages
<ogra> minghua, you are a DD, right ? 
<minghua> (but scim is entering main, so I am not so sure), but I still do other bugfixes
<pitti> minghua: NB that they are in main now, so even as MOTU you can't do that (but it's the path to main upload privs, right)
<minghua> ogra: no, but I am debian (co-)maintainer of quite a few scim packages
<dholbach> and I'd be happy to sponsor minghua's uploads, as he always did good work.
<Keybuk> ogra, dholbach: do you have anything to add to minghua's application?
<minghua> I do plan to apply for DD if that's relevant
<ogra> Keybuk, only a ++
<crimsun> I've uploaded a dozen or so of minghua's scim & fonts fixes
<Amaranth> minghua is the one that got us rolling on making scim work right
<minghua> pitti: yes I am aware of that, but one step at a time, I suppose :-)
<ogra> he pushed scim forward when there was no team around CJK yet 
<dholbach> he's considerate, helped out, motivated and was an asset for MOTU wannabes, when they had questions
<ogra> mostly on his own
<mjg59_> I'm all for anyone who can improve our localisation support
<Surak> dholbach, ogra: ++
<pitti> I'd welcome minhua
<Keybuk> mjg59_: any questions for minghua ?
<minghua> and I do plan to post my patches before upload, so other people can comment
<minghua> I think that is very important for MOTU to work together
<mjg59_> minghua: Is your long term aim to apply for main privileges?
<minghua> I am currently subscribed in launchpad for all scim packages I maintain in Debian, and comments on almost every bug received
<minghua> mjg59_: now scim is in main, so yes I do plan to apply for main priviledges
<mjg59_> minghua: Ok, that's good to know
<minghua> I want to take care of scim packages (and in general other CJK l10n related packages, such as fonts) in ubuntu
<atie_> BIG support from me for Ming.
<ogra> atie_, not only from you ;)
<mjg59_> minghua: At some point it would be good to document font issues, so it's easier for people to work this stuff out
<mjg59_> But that's not a prerequisite :)
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<minghua> mjg59_: I think you are aware that bubulle is trying to form an font team in debian, and I defintely will participate in that
<minghua> (and communicate/collaborates with MOTUs)
<minghua> for the font issues
<Chousuke> Is the second meeting over already? what is this conversation about?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Chousuke!*@*]  by Seveas
<mjg59_> minghua: Excellent
<dholbach> Chousuke: read the topic
<mjg59_> +1 from me
<minghua> Chousuke: agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda, and please read topic before asking
<ogra> Chousuke,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<Keybuk> ok, welcome aboard minghua
<dholbach> welcome minghua
<ogra> welcome minghua !!
<minghua> thanks mjg59_ and Keybuk 
<ogra> :)
<dholbach> I'm happy to see you in the team!
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> me as well
<pitti> great to see you on board, minghua 
<Keybuk> are any other candidates here today?
* freeflying-ibook is freeflying
<mjg59_> freeflying-ibook: Around?
<mjg59_> Excellent
<minghua> and thanks everyone who showed up for support :-)
<mjg59_> Want to introduce yourself?
<Seveas> (dholbach and others - I'm being the bad police guy and insta-mute - I also notify in PM so no need to msg the channel more
<Seveas> )
<freeflying-ibook> I come from China ,my name is Hou ZhengPeng have worked with kubuntu-team for months , and my major work is on Input Method and make ubuntu can support chinese better . And my goal is make ubuntu more friendly to our chinese people , and spread it in china  So I hope I can be a motu , and do more and more for my goal 
<Surak> minghua: congrats
<atie_> congrats! minghua 
<freeflying-ibook> congrats minghua
<ogra> i guess Riddell worked with you on packaging ? 
<sladen> freeflying-ibook: have you talked to minghua or any of the other people working in a similar area?
<Riddell> I support freeflying-ibook, he's been a great help getting cjk support into kubuntu, and has worked on a number of packages
<minghua> sladen (and others): freeflying-ibook has been mainly working on the KDE half of the scim related stuff
<minghua> which I am not familar with
<freeflying-ibook> sladen: ya, i've talked with minghua about scim and also other people ,such as atie_
<Riddell> his packages need changed often but he's quick to make fixes and learns fast
<Riddell> s/need/needed/
<raphink> I was not too happy with freeflying-ibook lately
<ogra> Riddell, are you confident he's ready for working alone on universe packages yet 
<raphink> but I asked him to review a bit to learn more
<raphink> and he's been improving quite fast
<raphink> in the last week
<raphink> and asking good questions
<Riddell> ogra: yes, so long as he gets his changelogs proofread for english :)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> nah, we need to learn chinese ;)
<Riddell> that's the alternative
* Keybuk has always wanted to learn chinese
<Keybuk> (random)
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: I want to know your opinion on using launchpad
<atie_> he's big help for skim, I support him. :)
<Surak> ogra: china is becoming so important than in some years the rest of the world will become irrelevant (I'm studying chinese anyway :-) )
<freeflying-ibook> minghua: I'd like to use 
<ogra> heh
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: I see that most of your patches aren't posted to launchpad and no malone bugs either
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: I assume for kde packages you keep good contact with Riddell
<Riddell> he does
<freeflying-ibook> minghua: if there has bugs, i will attach my patch on
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: but for scim package I am subscribed to the packages I am interested in, and you don't send patches there
<Keybuk> ogra, dholbach: have you worked with freeflying-ibook much yet?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> i dont know KDE :)
<freeflying-ibook> minghua: for scim , there is seldom patch for it 
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: for https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/scim-pinyin/+bug/34413 you did not
<dholbach> Keybuk: I didn't work much with him, sorry.
<Amaranth> minghua: i'm not sure this is the right time
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: I got your debdiff because I asked you (as Debian upstream maintainer)
<freeflying-ibook> minghua: before this uploaded , I mail you debdiff
<ogra> Keybuk, i tend to belive Riddell and since he'll break his packages i'm fine with reputation from him :)
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: but I would appreciate you do these in a more open way, so more people can get involved
<Keybuk> my instinct suggests that freeflying is making good contributions to Ubuntu, and should continue to do so; but isn't yet well acquainted enough with our procedures and systems to formally join the team
<freeflying-ibook> minghua: about scim and relate stuff , idon't think now is good time to talk about 
<Keybuk> would anybody like to disagree with that and raise support?
<atie_> minghua, I'd like to see yours and freeflying's efforts coordinated since you need help for KDE part.
<minghua> Amaranth: I am hoping he can use launchpad more, because I don't want to read dapper-changes to see a surprise
<ogra> Riddell, ? 
<minghua> atie_: yes, I am trying to figure a way to cooperate with him
<Riddell> as I've said, I'm happy with his work for MOTU
<Keybuk> mjg59: any questions/comments?
<minghua> I am not unhappy with freeflying-ibook's changes to universe
<mjg59_> I'd agree with Scott for now. I don't want to see Kubuntu be a poor second cousin in terms of localisation support, but I have a couple of qualms right now
<minghua> but as people said, there need to be cooperations, and I currently have problems with cooperating with freeflying-ibook 
<minghua> I don't necessarily need to care, though
<Keybuk> freeflying-ibook: thanks for your contributions so far, please do continue them :)  however we're going to defer you for now.
<sladen> minghua: could you work on sponsoring more of freeflying-ibook's uploads on the packages that you look after (if they're in Universe)
<Keybuk> freeflying-ibook: please work more closely with other scim maintainers, and the other MOTU; also try to use launchpad more, especially Malone
<freeflying-ibook> minghua: actually it's you say that you don't care the main inclusion of scim , so how can i cooperate with y 
<Keybuk> not in the least because we use Launchpad to see your work
<Keybuk> and at the moment your launchpad page shows very little activity
<minghua> sladen: pitti said most scim packages are in main now
<sladen> flikkeh: you have some excellent unique skills---that few other people here know about, please stick around and keep at it
<minghua> sladen: but if he posted other CJK related patches, I would be more than happy to review and upload
<sladen> minghua: I'm sure he will be :)
<Keybuk> ok, let's move on
<Keybuk> jdong doesn't appear to be here
<Keybuk> and none of the other candidates are members yet
<Keybuk> sladen: I'm not entirely sure what your first agenda item is actually *about*
<Keybuk> could you summaries what you'd like us to discuss and decide here?
<sladen> Keybuk: first or third?
<Keybuk> first
<Keybuk> "granted main upload..."
<ogra> Keybuk, jdong didnt do *any* packaging with MOTU yet
<minghua> freeflying-ibook: also feel free to mail me if you have any patches for packages in universe that you feel not suitable for malone
<ogra> Keybuk, being added to the LP team where he was missed out :)
<freeflying-ibook> minghua: thx for your advice 
<sladen> Keybuk: it's irrelevant now, the ticky box in LP has been clicked
<mjg59_> sladen: I think that we should avoid discussing the new features stuff until the decision has been made on scheduling
<Keybuk> sladen: ok :)
<mjg59_> Would you mind if we left that until later?
<Keybuk> madwifi-ng is not being held because of lack of time
<sladen> mjg59_: it would make sense.  It's dependent on that
<Keybuk> it's being held because it flat-out doesn't work on amd64 :-)
<mjg59_> Keybuk: The plan is to add it to l-r-m for x86 in any case, but anyway
<mjg59_> (Not replacing madwifi)
<Keybuk> aye
<Keybuk> ok, let's look at that last item
<Keybuk> and then go back to Mark's
<Seveas> (from the nm-mailinglist: madwifi-ng cvs is quite crackful lately)
<Keybuk> sladen: what's the strange behaviour you have noticed?
<Keybuk> the most usual thing I notice is either an "0ubuntu1" upload to Ubuntu and a "1" to Debian that are identical
<sladen> Keybuk: *blink*?
<Keybuk> or a "1" to both with different target distros
<Keybuk> sladen: "PaulSladen: Syncs from external repositories. I've noticed a few people doing fake uploads of duplicate packages into order to speed up the development cycle."
<ogra> sladen, that was advised
<sladen> Keybuk: syching back from Debian is taking a while
<dholbach> I suppose he meant 1build1 uploads
<ogra> because the LP sync mechanism isnt in place yet
<slomo> yes, and it doesn't add a new delta as -Xbuild1 would be automatically synced and overwritten by the autosyncer with -(X+1)
<Keybuk> sladen: syncing back from Debian doesn't happen at all right now, unless you have a UVF exception, no?
<ogra> XbuildX versions are overridden by autosyncs later
<mjg59_> Keybuk: It doesn't happen at all right now
<sladen> Keybuk: see note at the end
<mjg59_> Even for UVF exceptions
<Keybuk> I must admit, I'm completely baffled here
<ogra> Keybuk, there was a backlog on elmos side 
<Keybuk> sladen: could you give us a 1-line summary of the decision required?
<sladen> mjg59_: if packages are uploaded to Debian (to save having deltas against upstream)
<sladen> s/mjg59_//
<ogra> to get that done without LP it was asked that MOTU does XbuildX uploads
<sladen> Keybuk: "what do do about syncs from Debian not happening"
<mjg59_> sladen: I think the actual problem here is "syncs are not happening", not "it needs to be easier to do syncs"
<mjg59_> And the technical board is not in a position to fix the former of these
<Keybuk> "easier to do syncs" is a firm Launchpad spec
<sladen> Keybuk: when there is a preference to send packages to Upstream---we can't do this if the system is broken
<ogra> Keybuk, "do syncs at all" 
<slomo> mjg59_: but the TB is fine with doing "fakesyncs", i.e. -Xbuild1 uploads?
<mjg59_> sladen: And the problem is "the system is broken". That's not what we can solve.
<ogra> sladen, where is the system broken ?
<Keybuk> syncs are currently somewhere between elmo, launchpad and katie as I understand it
<mjg59_> slomo: I would really prefer not to, but in the absence of anything else...
<Keybuk> none of which have TB-oversight
<ogra> Keybuk, syncs are manually done by MOTU currently ...
<ogra> and not for TB, right 
<Keybuk> sladen: where is the fixed sync system you are proposing we use?
<ogra> it was an informal advise to use XbuildX  for now 
<mjg59_> ogra: No, something that approximates syncs are manually done by MOTU currently
<sladen> mjg59_: so what I'm after is guidance about how to cope with the system being broken.  What's the offical workaround?
<dholbach> I consider this discussion to be somewhat artificial, all we seem to be doing is determining, that things could work better.
<Keybuk> sladen: the official workaround is to do an upload of "XbuildX"
<mjg59_> Anyway. I think it's clear we can't really do anything here
<Keybuk> indeed.  It's known to be broken.  It's on the list of things to fix.
<Keybuk> And there is a workaround which is being used.
<mjg59_> So. Hypothetical dapper schedule. Does someone have a link to the current schedule for reference?
<minghua> I think sladen want to ask TB to confirm that "-Xbuild1" fakesync uploads are okay for the current situation
<Keybuk> http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
<Keybuk> ^ is the GNOME 2.15 proposed schedule
<minghua> because some MOTUs are still not sure if it's correct to do so
<Seveas> mjg59, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<Keybuk> minghua: I don't think there's a TB decision there though; unless there is an argument *not* to do it that way
<minghua> Keybuk: good, I have no questions then :-)
<Keybuk> hypothetical dapper+6 weeks release would put it on June 1st
<sladen> Keybuk: groovy, ta
<mjg59_> Right.
<mjg59_> Currently we have passed every freeze except beta, string and documentation
<mjg59_> Code should only be changing to fix bugs
<Nafallo> mjg59: except kernel aswell.
<ltibor65_> Who is TB-member here?
<mjg59_> Unless there are specific feature goals, I don't think anyone is going to argue that we should lift the current freezes
<ogra> hmm, polish might also mean UI changes
<Keybuk> given the emphasis on localisation, it actually makes some sense to me to thaw the UI freeze just in case changes need to be made
<mjg59_> Keybuk: Ok. UI freeze sounds like a good exception.
<Surak> for the translators a reminder: string freeze is scheduled for the day after tomorrow
<mjg59_> As another reminder: No decision has been made on the delay as yet. Do not assume that it will happen.
<ogra> string freeze might also move i think
<mjg59_> The fact that we are discussing this now does not mean that it will happen.
<ogra> as well as doc freeze
<mjg59_> This discussion is purely to determine what schedule we will follow if the delay /does/ take place
<Keybuk> I'd push the entire March block into April
<pitti> given that rosetta doesn't yet import everything in dapper, string freeze can certainly slip for one or two weeks
<ogra> yeah
<Keybuk> so leave us in FeatureFreeze
<mjg59_> Keybuk: Keeping the weeks the same? That sounds good.
<Keybuk> with a BetaRelease on April 20th
<sivang> maybe we'd better wait for when a schedule has been decided? or , at least brought for review?
<mjg59_> sivang: We decide the schedule.
<sivang> mjg59_: now? :)
<mjg59_> Yes.
<ogra> theats what we do
<pitti> sivang: it's IF delay is done THEN this new plan becomes active, not more
<mjg59_> Or rather, we are currently deciding what the schedule will be if the delay takes place.
<sivang> pitti: thakns for the clarification.
<mjg59_> Keybuk: That's effectively a 4 week delay. Where do the other two weeks go?
<ogra> bugfixing ? 
<pitti> pure bug fixing
<ogra> testing
<Keybuk> an extra two weeks of Beta test reports
<sivang> hardware support bug fixing
<mjg59_> Keybuk: Ok. With no string changes or UI changes?
<pitti> preferably not
<sladen> two weeks -> insert an extra week between each of the last two freezes?
<Keybuk> hmm, that's an interesting point
<atie_> mjg59, do you have a list of goals for localization and how many days needed for them?
<Keybuk> the String and DocString freezes could be placed after Beta
<mjg59_> atie_: I don't, no - not really my field, I'm afraid
<sivang> sladen: you mean between FF and the UI ones?
<Surak> what are the tradeoffs of postponing the string freeze?
<ogra> atie_, #ubuntu-i10n (sprint people) might know (but they might be offline by now)
<mjg59_> Keybuk: I think we should aim to have the same amount of time between string freeze and final release as we do now
<atie_> mjg59, localization maybe factor for schedule, isn't it?
<Keybuk> mjg59_: I agree with you
<Keybuk> what about UI-freeze?
<mjg59_> Keybuk: That is, string freeze should be 6 weeks before final release
<sladen> I was thinking between RC and FR.  But actually I think that time should be used earlier so that it can actually be /used/ and not spent sitting around waiting
<Keybuk> should that be T-5 weeks or B-1 week?
<mjg59_> Keybuk: I think it should be independent of the beta. The length of time is more needed for translation time, right?
<mjg59_> Shame Jono isn't here. It would be nice to have his opinion on that.
<ogra> but mako was earlier 
<Keybuk> right
<Burgwork> is this something I can answer?
<ogra> Burgwork, do you work with them on the book ? 
<Burgwork> yes
<ogra> so give an opinion :)
<mjg59_> Ok. I propose string freeze to be April 27th.
<mjg59_> Docstringfreeze should be the week after that.
<ogra> ++
<mjg59_> Translation deadline two weeks after that.
<mjg59_> And then release two weeks after that.
<Keybuk> right
<mjg59_> That is, keep those freezes the same distance away from the release as they are currently scheduled to be.
<Keybuk> BetaRelease on April 20th?
<mjg59_> Yes, I think making a beta release on April 20th would be good.
<Seveas> it should not be called beta
<Keybuk> April	6th	
<Keybuk> 	13th	Beta Freeze
<Keybuk> 	20th	BetaRelease, UserInterfaceFreeze
<Keybuk> 	27th	StringFreeze
<Keybuk> May	4th	DocumentationStringFreeze
<Keybuk> 	11th
<robotgeek> translation of documentation can only begin after doc string freeze, how does it exactly improve document translation?
<Keybuk> 	18th	NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline, KernelFreeze
<Keybuk> 	25th	ReleaseCandidate, LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
<Keybuk> June	1st	FinalRelease
<Seveas> it should be a PR boost
<mjg59_> Seveas: Naming is not our field.
<ogra> Seveas, jdub will rename it properly
<Seveas> ogra, I'm scared....
<Burgwork> the docteam wants to be mostly frozen for the beta, due to having great testing for that release
<ogra> :)
<Keybuk> that gives us an extra 5 (not 4) weeks until Beta
<Keybuk> and an extra week between Beta and Release
<mjg59_> Ok. How many people do we have here from the doc team?
<Burgwork> so I would keep the docteam string freeze the same as the beta
* robotgeek is docteam
<mjg59_> robotgeek: How much extra time do you (and the translaters) realistically need?
<Nafallo> should we really move the kernel freeze?
<atie_> what if beta on April 20th not achieved for localization goals, do we postpone them to dapper+1?
<Keybuk> Nafallo: it makes sense for the kernel to be frozen relative to the release
<Keybuk> not relative to now
<robotgeek> mjg59_: i am quite new to the doc team, i am not sure about translation times. i was hoping someone else could enlighten me on the issue
<mjg59_> The kernel freeze is a hard freeze.
<Burgwork> mjg59, we are well on track to meeting the current string freeze
<mjg59_> Keeping it slushy for bug-fixing is sensible.
<Burgwork> even without it being bumped back
<mjg59_> Burgwork: Right. So currently we're proposing giving you an extra 4-5 weeks.
<Keybuk> Burgwork: that assumes no new input from the localisation work
<robotgeek> the only problem is with sutff changing in the UI
<mjg59_> What could you do with that time?
<Burgwork> cleanup more docs
<robotgeek> mjg59_: probably not much. cleanup 
<Keybuk> what about documentation for espresso?
<Burgwork> not yet in place
<Burgwork> that is the last major piece we need
<Keybuk> is that on track for the current string freeze?
<ogra> mjg59_, renaming 6.04 to 6-06 in the docs :)
<mjg59_> I think it would be helpful to have a proposal from the doc team on this
<Surak> what about internationalization for espresso?
<Keybuk> \o/  finally, my version numbering scheme (that I suggested back at the original "version number decision" meeting) is being adopted
<Keybuk> (ahem)
<Burgwork> mjg59, you want specific information about where we should move the freeze to?
<mjg59_> Burgwork: I think this is something that should be decided with more feedback from the doc team
<Keybuk> Burgwork: I'm trying to understand what the DocStringFreeze is nailed to
<Keybuk> is it "four weeks before Release, because that's how long we need to do it"
<mjg59_> If an earlier freeze helps translation, then that's good.
<Burgwork> Keybuk, currently the beta freeze, to allow greater testing
<Keybuk> or is it "never change Docs after Beta has released" ?
<Keybuk> testing of what?
<jjesse> and to allow translation
<mjg59_> If a later freeze helps the quality of the docs, then that's also good.
<robotgeek> Keybuk: i think it has more to do with the UI freeze, cause we have to change stuff if you do
<Burgwork> testing to see if the docs are crack and looking for typos, etc.
<jjesse> i'm not the best person, but i thought doc freeze occured after UI freeze to help with translations and make sure there aren't major changes to the docs
<sladen> Keybuk: that would leave us still in '''UserInterfaceFreeze''' ?
<Burgwork> plus allow translation
<jjesse> docs don't get uploaded into rosseta until doc freeze (correect me if i'm wrong burgwork)
<Burgwork> afaik, that is correct, but I am not the best person to ask about that
<Keybuk> Burgwork: DocStringFreeze to me suggests "no more documentation changes"
<ogra> Keybuk, oh, yes, your list above had no new date for UI freeze
<Keybuk> ogra: does, april 20th
<ogra> oh
<ogra> sorry, i'm blind 
* ogra blushes
<ogra> Keybuk, no text changes, but screenshots etc 
<Burgwork> we like to keep screenshots to the docteam freeze as well
<Keybuk> right, given the changes in localisation and stuff, it makes a bit of sense to me to actually freeze the UI/String/Docs *after* we've already released beta
<robotgeek> jjesse: that is correct, no translation before DocStringFreeze
<Keybuk> but still with a whole extra week to do the work before release
<Burgwork> let me raise the idea on the doc mailing list
<mjg59_> Keybuk: I think we should possibly get more feedback from the translators before making a firm decision on this point
<Burgwork> as jerome and matthew are the best people to ask about this
<robotgeek> mjg59_: +1
<mjg59_> Since there is a firm desire for higher quality docs, and that's going to include the translations
<ogra> i think we do a rough proposal only ...
<ogra> anyway ...
<Keybuk> right, I agree with ogra; let's put it forward as a proposal for the TB/CC super-meeting
<Keybuk> and make sure the translators and docteam have weighed in
<mjg59_> Ok. Let's go with that.
<sladen> is it worth budging the Release an extra day to fall at the start of the weekend for mirror loading et al
<Keybuk> there's a reason (that I've forgotten) that we do it on Thursday
<ogra> someones b-day ?
<atie_> most GNOME 2.14 application translations can be uploaded to rosetta independently I think.
<ogra> :)
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule/Slewed
<Keybuk> (thanks sladen)
<Keybuk> so that's our proposal for a 6-week-delayed schedule
<mjg59_> Any violent objections?
<sivang> seems sane
<ogra> since its a proposal only ...
<enyc> The weeknumbers on that schedule dont make sense ;-)
<PierPP> y
<Keybuk> enyc: "week numbers" ?  the dates should all be a Thursday
<sladen> enyc: any better?  29->33
<enyc> sladen: much better ;-)
<ogra> heh
<PierPP> sweet
<Keybuk> ah, heh
<mjg59_> Ok. Anything else to do?
<Keybuk> Any other business from the floor?
<ogra> doesnt look like 
<enyc> That.. would mean that 6.04 _would_ be there.. as a beta release!
<enyc> and 6.05 would be the final
<enyc> hrrm
<Keybuk> 6-06 as final
<enyc> well you can't please everybody _whatever_ you do!
<ogra> nope, 6-06
<enyc> oh yes
<enyc> ;-)
<Keybuk> ok, in that case
<Keybuk> meeting ajourned
<Keybuk> thanks everybody
<ogra> yay
<Keybuk> the next formal meeting will be in two weeks time (28th)
<ogra> thanks Keybuk mjg59_ 
<mjg59_> First person to post that schedule to slashdot gets sworn at
* ogra goes for a beer
<enyc> Well get on with it then ;-)   *good luck nice people* ;-)
<Keybuk> there will be an additional meeting to discuss the dapper release before then, there will be a mail (from sabdfl) to announce that
<Surak> mjg59_ : :-)
<Seveas> mjg59_, just sworn?
<atie_> thanks all, bye.
<mjg59_> Seveas: I think the CoC would be a stronger issue otherwise
<Seveas> mjg59_, do it the slashdot way: anonymous
<robotgeek> 6-06? instead of 6.06 ? 
<PierPP> Ubuntu See'o sex
<PierPP> ops =)
<mjg59_> robotgeek: Not our decision
<Keybuk> robotgeek: there's an increasing consensus to change to a "-" to avoid confusion with people calling it "point four"
<Seveas> ok, meeting over - tonight this channel will be locked
<Keybuk> it's not a TB decision
<robotgeek> i think that's slightly more works for us, lemme double check :)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+m]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-bbbb %Chousuke!*@* %*!*@c-68-39-96-226.hsd1.nj.comcast.net %RAPIST!*@* %XderalteX!*@*]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-bb %kbrooks!*@* %moox!*@*]  by Seveas
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Mar 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveaz]  by ChanServ
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-03-12
<malt^> ello from poland
<malt^> anyone from boardman?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Mar 18:00 UTC: Derivative Team | 13 Mar 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 13 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<dfarning> @schedual
<dfarning> @help
<Ubugtu> (help [<plugin>]  [<command>] ) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
<dfarning>  @help schedule
<dfarning>  @schedule
<fabbione> without the space at the beginning
<fabbione> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 18:00: Derivative Team | 13 Mar 16:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 20:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<dfarning> thanks
<dfarning> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 18:00: Derivative Team | 13 Mar 16:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 20:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<dfarning> @help schedule
<Ubugtu> schedule Retrieve the date/time of scheduled meetings in a specific timezone
<dfarning> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 12 Mar 13:00: Derivative Team | 13 Mar 11:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 15:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 15:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 14:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<asac> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 12 Mar 19:00: Derivative Team | 13 Mar 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 21:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 20:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<dfarning> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 12 Mar 13:00: Derivative Team | 13 Mar 11:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 15:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 15:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 14:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 12 Mar 14:00: Derivative Team | 13 Mar 12:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 16:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 15:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Derivative Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Mar 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 13 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<LaserJock> is the Derivative meeting on in a couple minutes?
<dfarning> LaserJock, yes will kick off soon good to have you here
* gnomefreak will have to read logs :)
<dfarning> Looks like it is time to start;)
<BackwardsDown> this is my first time, and before it goes off, may I ask you wat a "derative team meeting" is exactly?
<dfarning> I just wanted to introduce everyone to the Derivatives Team
<dfarning> the derative team is working on making is easier for distro to derive from ubuntu
<BackwardsDown> ah k
<BackwardsDown> like you are doing with linspire?
<dfarning> or mission statement can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam
<dfarning> current I am working on how linspire can work within the Ubuntu community
<dfarning> currently most of our discussion are on how linsprire and Ubuntu can work together on issues handling
<LaserJock> are you a linspire developer?
<dfarning> LaserJock, no I am a guy who wanted firefox to not crash;)
<LaserJock> maybe a little round of "who's here and from what" might be nice
<dfarning> sounds good
<dfarning> anyone?
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> my name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a MOTU and also an Ichthux developer
<LaserJock> Ichthux is a Kubuntu derivate, btw
<dfarning> LaserJock, I didn't realize you were with Ichthux
<LaserJock> *derivative
<LaserJock> I've worked with 3 different *buntu derivatives so far
<dfarning> I am interested in how you create meta packages
<LaserJock> so I'm interested in seeing how this team works ;-)
<LaserJock> well, meta packages are fairly easy, as you can look at the Ubuntu examples
<dfarning> Well the next issue I want to bring up was our roadmap
<LaserJock> we uses seeds just like Ubuntu and basically use the kubuntu-meta package as an example
<dfarning> the first order of business is talking to various distos and seeing what we can do to make it easier for them
<dfarning> to work with us
<dfarning> LaserJock, what could we do to help Ichthux?
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> we've had a lot of success with the items you've mentioned
<LaserJock> since the dev team is almost all *buntu contributors
<LaserJock> all of our packages are in Universe
<LaserJock> we used LP
<LaserJock> and we've worked with the installer people on getting customized installtion stuff into Ubuntu
<dfarning> Would you mind serving as a resource to other distros
<LaserJock> I don't think we would
<dfarning> cool
<LaserJock> we are a bit dormaint right now, due to various things
<LaserJock> but I think we'd be happy to help where we can
<dfarning> the most common request I am getting is for help from localizations teams
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> what do they need?
<LaserJock> I'd think it'd be fairly straightfoward with Reconstructor or UCK
<dfarning> do you have a preference between the two tool kits
<LaserJock> since we don't use either (and I haven'), no
<dfarning> ;(
<LaserJock> *haven't
<dfarning> I would like to invite both project to join the team
<LaserJock> that would be cool
<dfarning> they seem to have a lot to offer
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I think about the only reason we don't use them is we build our .isos on a server and we have too many customizations to do
<LaserJock> but they should be great for localization
<dfarning> the next priority is to work with Canonical and Ubuntu to set policies for distros
<dfarning> they are working on the trademark issue now
<LaserJock> what kind of policies do you imaging?
<LaserJock> *imagine
<LaserJock> my spelling it terrible today
<dfarning> mine too
<LaserJock> I think if Canonical and Ubuntu started putting a bunch of "you have to do this" or "you can't do that" it might turn a lot of people away
<LaserJock> where they have the right and obligation to do so (trademark for instance) then they should do it
<dfarning> statements on how ubuntu will retain source code in their archives
<LaserJock> yes, that'll be interesting
<LaserJock> since I'm not sure what the FSF thinks of that
<dfarning> yes is mostly legal issues
<LaserJock> but it'd be good to see that
<LaserJock> "Best Practices" would be helpful for sure
<LaserJock> I've been pushing for derivatives, as much as possible, to work within Universe
<dfarning> I am drafting a letter to the FSF to see if they will issue a statement on source code complience
<dfarning> as it affect our team
<dfarning> Yes, there are many distro who have been building knowledge and experience for several releases
<LaserJock> I think it'd be good to get ahold of as many derivative as possible
<LaserJock> see how many are interested in a closer relationship with Ubuntu and  other derivatives, etc.
<dfarning> ;)
<LaserJock> some of them will want nothing to do with it I suspect
<dfarning> that has happened all ready
<dfarning> many distros want to go their own way
<dfarning> hopefully others will see the advantage of working together
<LaserJock> well, I think it'd be good to show that it *can* be helpful
<LaserJock> I think mostly the Linux derivative model is a bit of a ineasy dislike
<dfarning> yes, I that is what got me interest in this project
<dfarning> the toss the tarball over the fence attitude
<LaserJock> but we've had really good success in Ichthux
<LaserJock> our biggest example is that we were able to get patches into the Ubuntu installer
<LaserJock> that allowed us to give added language support
<dfarning> the third issues that I would like to cover is issues handling
<LaserJock> mediation?
<dfarning> mediation?
<LaserJock> do you mean mediation between Ubuntu and derivatives?
<dfarning> sorry bug handing
<LaserJock> ah
<dfarning> Would like to work with Canoncial and Ubuntu about having use LP
<LaserJock> using Launchpad makes all of that much easier
<dfarning> having derivatives use LP
<LaserJock> well, I think it's very much in Canonical's mind to have Launchpad used by derivatives
<dfarning> I agree, but I don't want to commit their resources
<LaserJock> several do already for pretty much everything but archive/iso management
<dfarning> I believe that Canonical has commerical support agreement with some distos to use LP
<LaserJock> well, most derivatives won't need that I don't think
<dfarning> I need to follow up with Matthew Revell about that
<LaserJock> until they want to start doing a lot of soyuz stuff
<dfarning> that is one of the policy type questions
<LaserJock> but Ichthux uses Launchpad for basically everything but the website/forums
<LaserJock> specifications, bugs, potentially translations
<dfarning> yes and from what I have seen it work great for you
<dfarning> the forth issues is issue handling (the mediation type)
<LaserJock> in the future Launchpad will also have Personal Package Archives which will be handy for derivatives
<LaserJock> bazaar.launchpad.net is also very handy
<dfarning> really, what are personal package archives?
<cjwatson> PPA => "please dpkg-buildpackage this branch and stick the result in a little apt archive"
<LaserJock> exactly
<cjwatson> approximately
<LaserJock> ;-)
<cjwatson> heh
<dfarning> very helpful
<dfarning> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam/Governance
<dfarning> I just wanted to bring up a draft of our governance document
<LaserJock> ok, I have a fundamental question here
<dfarning> yes
<LaserJock> is there even enough interest to create a Derivative "team"?
<dfarning> ;(
<LaserJock> I see a lot of teams created that don't really get anywhere
<dfarning> Maybe not yet
<LaserJock> not trying to be down here
<dfarning> but I think their will be
<LaserJock> but you're talking policies, collaboration, governance
<LaserJock> and there's basically 2 of us here
<dfarning> there are a lot of derivative out there that are basically recreating the wheel
<LaserJock> right
<gnomefreak> 3
<dfarning> if will take some perservence
<LaserJock> but a team sort of implies people are going to come to the table
* gnomefreak just watching
<dfarning> The Mozilla Team was just me a few months ago
<LaserJock> I was more of a mind to start with the mailing list and wiki namespace to put "best practices" and related info
<LaserJock> the Derivative Council is a good idea
<LaserJock> but it doesn't seem plausible or potent at this time, IMO
<LaserJock> you know what I mean?
<dfarning> not yet but I am willing to give it a few months;)
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but you also have to take it one step at a time
<LaserJock> I think what you've got is a great end goal/roadmap
<dfarning> baby steps;)
<LaserJock> yes
<pochu> 4
<pochu> ;)
* pochu has just arrived
<dfarning> yes first step is to start converstions with derivatives;)
<LaserJock> ok, so how many derivatives do we know that might be interested?
<dfarning> 10 to 15
<LaserJock> are you in contact with them?
<dfarning> yes, email and phone;)
<joejaxx> i am sorry everyone :\ i am here now
<pochu> dfarning: we (spanish team) are thinking in do a Spanish localized Ubuntu :)
<LaserJock> ok, so maybe to start with there needs to be a list of member derivatives
<LaserJock> hi joejaxx
<leogg> dfarning: should also contact the loco teams
<joejaxx> hello leogg
<joejaxx> LaserJock: *
<leogg> hi joejaxx
<joejaxx> :)
<dfarning> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam/Derivatives
<dfarning> is an incomplete list
<leogg> pochu: we (ubuntu-ni) are working on a similar project
<pochu> leogg: nicaragua?
<pochu> leogg: also ubuntu-co is doing it
<pochu> leogg: I'm going to contact everyone interested, to join efforts :)
<dfarning> outstanding
<LaserJock> dfarning: interesting, 2 out of the 3 derivatives I've work with aren't on there
<leogg> pochu: great!
<pochu> leogg: please join #ubuntu-es-web ;)
<LaserJock> dfarning: what I meant though, was start a derivative membership drive
<pochu> dfarning: I'll update that page
<dfarning> I am going to have a converation with jono about how to collaborate between locos and the derivaative team
<dfarning> thanks for updating your information
<joejaxx> dfarning: did you base that list on the canonical one?
<LaserJock> joejaxx: is it still Fluxbuntu or have you changed it?
<dfarning> can you send me emails also at dfarning@gmail.com so I don't lose track
<joejaxx> LaserJock: that might be why, they are not included on it
<joejaxx> LaserJock: it is still fluxbuntu at this point
<dfarning> yes it was based on the Canonical list
<dfarning> adding distros as they introduce themselves
<LaserJock> there are many more
<LaserJock> so many Ubuntu derivatives ...
<dfarning> yes, but as you said baby steps
<LaserJock> the MOTU in me wants to cry
<dfarning> ;)
<joejaxx> :)
<dfarning> I have not been doing to much advertising
<LaserJock> ok, how about a call to derivatives to participate
<LaserJock> I think it'd be good to have a list of participating projects
<dfarning> currently, I am approaching them one at a time.
<gnomefreak> do most derivatives have mailing lists? if so easy to send them a post :)
<LaserJock> joejaxx: does fluxbuntu want to participate?
<LaserJock> :-)
<gnomefreak> joejaxx: please say yes
<dfarning> gnomefreak, some do and some don't
<joejaxx> LaserJock: yes :) i was interested the day dfarning sent the mailing list post
<dfarning> it is sad how many are orphaned
<LaserJock> joejaxx: has _MMA_ talked about it?
<joejaxx> dfarning: there is a larger list on the bottom of the ubuntu wiki page on wikipedia.org
<dfarning> _MMA_?
<joejaxx> LaserJock: not that much i am going to talk to him about it today
<joejaxx> dfarning: ubuntu studio :)
<LaserJock> dfarning: _MMA_ is the lead of Ubuntu Studio
<dfarning> joejaxx, thanks
<joejaxx> dfarning: you are most welcome
<dfarning> ah
<LaserJock> dfarning: I'll talk it over with Ichthux devs but I'm pretty sure we're interested
<gnomefreak> joejaxx: what is browser and email default in fluxbuntu?
<dfarning> guadlinux is also interested
<dfarning> they are a very well done distro!
<LaserJock> dfarning: hmmm, what about DerivativeTeam/ParticipatingProjects
<LaserJock> with a brief "This is what it means to participate" at the top
<joejaxx> gnomefreak: firefox and sylpheed
<dfarning> makes sense,  this is a work in progress;)
<joejaxx> gnomefreak: i was considering mozilla browser but that is not in the repos at this point to my understanding
<gnomefreak> joejaxx: you gonna be around in next 24-48 hours?
<joejaxx> gnomefreak: yes
<gnomefreak> joejaxx: ok ill ping you when i get caught up. do you have a page with list of contributors bychance?
<dfarning> Well it has been an hour
<joejaxx> gnomefreak: it needs updating :\
<dfarning> enough to think about for one day?
<LaserJock> probably
<LaserJock> we need that mailing list :/
<joejaxx> yeah :\
<dfarning> I agree
<gnomefreak> Ml fairly easy to get
<LaserJock> I think most people interested are pretty involved with other things
<dfarning> I'll follow up on the RT
<gnomefreak> RT?
<LaserJock> we should try to keep it fairly low-key
<dfarning> request ticket to start a ML
<LaserJock> gnomefreak: Request Ticket
<gnomefreak> ah
<dfarning> Thanks for all the good ideas
<dfarning> I think I'll set another meeting in about two week to see where we are at
<joejaxx> that sounds good
<gnomefreak> that reminds me
<pochu> LaserJock: still there?
<LaserJock> yeah
* LaserJock is always around, it seems like
<pochu> hehe
<pochu> LaserJock: do you plan to make a gnome version of Ichthux?
<LaserJock> pochu: well, there was some thought of that
<LaserJock> pochu: we've done a bit of work on making a Xfce version
<LaserJock> Ichthux-lite sort of thing
<pochu> hmm
<pochu> and what about gnome? hehe
<LaserJock> but there's really no reason why we couldn't other than willing people
<LaserJock> Kubuntu is actually a bit easier to derivatize, IMO
<pochu> LaserJock: ah, hehe
<LaserJock> becuase of how the layering of configs go
<pochu> LaserJock: maybe I can help a little
<LaserJock> I'm sure we could work something out (I'm a Gnome guy myself)
<pochu> but I'm still learning, so don't wait too much ;)
<pochu> LaserJock: so am I :)
<LaserJock> well, the other thing is that we're also a Debian-based project
<LaserJock> having a few DDs involved
<LaserJock> so Ichthux has gone from Knoppix-based -> Kubuntu-based -> in Ubuntu repos -> in Debian repos (in the guture)
<LaserJock> *future
<pochu> LaserJock: oh, I thought you were ubuntu based :)
<LaserJock> well, right now it's kinda hard to say how it exactly goes
<LaserJock> it's based off of Kubuntu but the packages are all in Universe
<LaserJock> so it's even hard to call it a real derivative since it's developed alongside
<pochu> I see
<LaserJock> and then when many of the packages get pushed to Debian it'll get even weirder
<LaserJock> since we'll actually be our own upstreams ;-)
<pochu> hehe
<pochu> that might be annoying :)
<LaserJock> pochu: anyway, if you're interested there's #ichthux and #ichthux-devel
<pochu> LaserJock: didn't know :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Mar 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 13 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 13 Mar 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 21:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 20:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 11:00: MOTU Council
<BackwardsDown> hmm
<BackwardsDown> @schedule Amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 13 Mar 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 21:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 20:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 11:00: MOTU Council
<highvoltage> 3
<sid> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 13 Mar 12:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 16:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 15:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 06:00: MOTU Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-03-13
<highvoltage> \sh_away: do you also find this sexy? http://photos.jonathancarter.co.za/misc/gates_hustler
<asac> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Mar 16:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 20:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00: MOTU Council
<asac> @schedule Berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 13 Mar 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 21:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 20:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 11:00: MOTU Council
<poningru> @schedule New_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 13 Mar 12:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 16:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 15:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 06:00: MOTU Council
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 14 Mar 03:00: Forum Council | 14 Mar 07:00: Technical Board | 15 Mar 07:00: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 06:00: Audio Team | 16 Mar 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 21:00: MOTU Council
<poningru> eek
<jsgotangco> @schedule manila
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Manila: 14 Mar 00:00: Forum Council | 14 Mar 04:00: Technical Board | 15 Mar 04:00: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 03:00: Audio Team | 16 Mar 05:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 18:00: MOTU Council
<jsgotangco> beautiful
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: good thing you never sleep.
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: heh.  i will be asleep for the FC and travelling during the TB.
<Hobbsee> + edubuntu, + audio team.  ubuntu dev and MOTU council would be the only two that i might get to
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 13 Mar 12:00: Forum Council | 13 Mar 16:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 15:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 06:00: MOTU Council
<MikeB-> morning
<SD-Plissken> morning MikeB-
<MikeB-> hope i'm not late, DST always confuses me:)
<Vorian> MikeB-, 45 more minutes
<SD-Plissken> Don't think your late. Should be starting soon..
<SD-Plissken> Vorian bet me to it..
<Vorian> SD-Plissken, :)
<Vorian> we'll be lucky to get through the agenda today
<SD-Plissken> Well what ever is not finished today I guess will have to hold over for the next meeting.
* Vorian ads a quick item to the agenda
<MikeB-> busy busy
<Vorian> MikeB-, I added meeting times to the agenda
<Vorian> if that's ok with you :)
<MikeB-> :)
<ubuntugeek> hello
<Vorian> hi ubuntugeek
<Vorian> quite the agenda today eh?
<ubuntugeek> yeah should be pretty quick :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Forum Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council
<Vorian> lol
<ubuntugeek> everyone here yet?
* PriceChild looks at agenda
<PriceChild> ubugtu's changed that early hasn't he
<SD-Plissken> Who is mia?
<SD-Plissken> *m.i.a*
<PriceChild> whoa its a forumsmatthew :)
<ubuntugeek> vorian whenever you are ready lead the way
<Vorian> where did jdong go?
<Vorian> ok
<apokryphos> PriceChild: always 10 minutes before the beginning
<Vorian> ubuntugeek, do you want to wait till 16:00?
<PriceChild> Hehe ok :)
<ubuntugeek> sure
<Vorian> jdong was just on a minute ago ....
<MikeB-> ack, starting early, was going to run and get a soda
<forumsmatthew> either way is fine for me...I'm here now
<Vorian> ok then
<Vorian> Welcome to the 3rd Forum Council meeting!
<forumsmatthew> is Kiwi coming?
<Vorian> I dont know forumsmatthew. I would assume he is asleep right now :)
<PriceChild> pathetic :P
<PriceChild> Hey GazzaK :)
<Vorian> ubuntugeek, shall we start with the jail?
<GazzaK> hey PriceChild
<Vorian> as henrik is not here atm
<ubuntugeek> sure
<Vorian> for refernce
<Vorian> for reference*
<Vorian> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<ubuntugeek> The jail agenda item was to set a final policy on a change we made to the jail about 5 months ago.
<Vorian> The jail
<Vorian> Should we split off the jail into two areas. One for spam (no reads) and one for jailing user posts and allow all users to view. Or should we leave it the way it is, one category and threads are viewable to the OP.
* Vorian was quoting u-g :)
<forumsmatthew> I'm not ofnd of that idea
<forumsmatthew> it would be a lot of extra work...all that sorting
<forumsmatthew> remembering where to put stuff
<ubuntugeek> previous to the jail change 5 months ago it was open for everyone to see, 99% of the items in the jail are spam
<ubuntugeek> 1% are users posts
<forumsmatthew> staff have an easier time remembering now
<ubuntugeek> post the change we allow only the original thread started to view the thread created
<ubuntugeek> I am in favor of leaving it the way it is and amending the guidelines to reflect the change
<ubuntugeek> that was implemented 5 months ago
<Vorian> thats a good idea
<forumsmatthew> I read one user's comment on the issue
<forumsmatthew> "I think that the elegant solution would be to keep the current system and permit people to access the jail upon request. "
<MikeB-> that is fine with me
<forumsmatthew> is that even possible?
<forumsmatthew> otherwise, I like it how it is
<Vorian> other comments about the jail?  anyone?
<SD-Plissken> I like it how it is.
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: not really easy to implement
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, fair enough.
<bapoumba> how it is +1
<forumsmatthew> I vote to keep it how it is and amend the guidelines
<ubuntugeek> we would have to put that user in another usergroup
<MikeB-> +1
<ubuntugeek> +1
* PriceChild got d/c and needs to read everything :(
<forumsmatthew> +1
<Vorian> great!
<ubuntugeek> Pricechild: we decided to leave the jail the way it is and amend the guidlines
<Vorian> ok Hardware team
<Vorian> Hardware Team
<Vorian> Lord Illian is currently busy with school etc and asked if we could elect a interm team leader for that team. Lets decide how to go about doing that.
<ubuntugeek> Who wants to amend the guidelines? any takers?
<forumsmatthew> I'll amend the guidelines
<SD-Plissken> Interm leader Vorian you have to be kidding?
<ubuntugeek> ok thanks matthew
<forumsmatthew> does LordIllidan have team members het?
<forumsmatthew> *yet
<PriceChild> Ok cool, btw my opinion is that the jail shouldn't have been closed due to it being so hidden 8-)
<Vorian> SD-Plissken, I'm just a humble secretary relaying the agenda :)
<ubuntugeek> there are 12 users in the hardware team
<forumsmatthew> I would recommend that _he_ be responsible for finding a member of his team to cover for him
<forumsmatthew> it's a sign of leadership
<ubuntugeek> I really think we need to either a) find a new team leader who has time or b) have two team leaders
<bapoumba> no posts in the forums section
* PriceChild points out randomly that there is #ubuntuforums-beginners (very active in evenings) & #ubuntuforums-unanswered (not very active)
<SD-Plissken> Vorian really if theres no one on the hardware team yet then how can an in-trim leader be chosen?
<ubuntugeek> Pricechild: re the jail, the reason it was closed is so the search engines do not index the spam
<MikeB-> The problem is the hardware team had little time to get going before this
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek, ah search engines is a good point, never thought about that :)
<forumsmatthew> MikeB-, good point...it's like starting over, isn't it?
<Vorian> SD-Plissken, ask ubuntugeek he added it to the agenda.
* PriceChild is happy
<MikeB-> forumsmatthew: yes
<Vorian> I would suggest apjone as he was a finalist for the hardware team
<ubuntugeek> Possibly we should repost a request for hardware team leaders
<SD-Plissken> MikeB then the leader  in charge should have made a thread asking for help.
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, I think that sounds better than finding an interim leader...just start fresh
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: right, i agree
<SD-Plissken> make sure they have the time..
<MikeB-> forumsmatthew: +1
<forumsmatthew> SD-Plissken, and perhaps that the candidate shows up at the meeting when he's chosen
<Vorian> I think that is a great idea
<SD-Plissken> Seems fair to me forumsmatthew.
<ubuntugeek> Sounds good, +1 i
<ubuntugeek> 'll repost about the position
<forumsmatthew> +1, just to make it official
<Vorian> yay
<ubuntugeek> +1
* Vorian pokes jdong 
* jdong didn't catch what the decision was :)
<jdong> but I'm sure I'd agree with it
<ubuntugeek> to elect a new hardware team leader
<ubuntugeek> lord Illian is pretty much going to be out until june
<jdong> like a permanently new one?
<jdong> what are we to do with Lord Illian when he gets back?
<jdong> I'd like to find some position for him....
<forumsmatthew> jdong, since nothing has happened with the current one, I will say yes...a new one to replace him
<forumsmatthew> I like Lord Illidan, he just didn't have time to do this
<ubuntugeek> agreed
<jdong> if he comes back June, would we be OK with finding something for him?
<SD-Plissken> He could be co chair on the same team.
<MikeB-> maybe he can step in as a co-leader in June. We will know better by then what the hardware team will be like
<ubuntugeek> jdong: I don't see why not, possibly the new team leader will worth along with him
<jdong> yeah, ok
<jdong> I'll +1 then :)
<Vorian> great!
<Vorian> anything else on hardware?
<ubuntugeek> not from me
<forumsmatthew> I'm in favor of new hardware for everyone...Pricey is buying, I think
<forumsmatthew> :)
<Vorian> ty PriceChild :)
<Vorian> ISO testing
<Vorian> Can we cover that without Henrik?
<PriceChild> Hehe :)
<MikeB-> forumsmatthew: I need a new motherboad and CPU:) woot
<PriceChild> @lart forumsmatthew
<ubuntugeek> It seemed like he just wanted us to promote it
<ubuntugeek> I put up the announcement this morning
<Vorian> I noticed that :P
<forumsmatthew> I hearby promote the project: everyone who can, participate!
<Vorian> no brainer really eh?
<jdong> yay go hardware!
<Vorian> FC meeting times?
<Vorian> Should we vary our meeting times to accommodate all members of the Forum Council and Forum Members?
<ubuntugeek> One thing I was just thinking is possibly a testing team for henrik's project
<Vorian> ubuntugeek, thats a great idea!
<ubuntugeek> I'll run it past henrik, if no one else has any reservations.
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, that's not a bad idea...+1
<jdong> yeah, I'm all up for it
<bapoumba> +1
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek: +1
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek, cd testing team? or general feisty?
<ubuntugeek> that way he can get a core group of testers
<ubuntugeek> testing team for cd images
<PriceChild> k
<SD-Plissken> u-g that would require user with many different platforms from ppc i386 64bit as well as different pci cards video cards other devices.
* PriceChild rubs eyes and will read more carefully next time
* Vorian hands PriceChild some glasses
<ubuntugeek> sd: well not really I dont see why someone couldnt join who was just going to test i386
<jdong> yeah, I don't think we should have affirmative action testing or anything
<ubuntugeek> its no different then how it is now, except there is a defined list of participants dedicated to helping his project
<jdong> it's far from all i386's are created equal.
<PriceChild> I think the purpose of the testing team would be more to help assist other users get started... not do all the testing themselves
<Vorian> he explains his testing very well in this announcement http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=383067
<PriceChild> not that they wouldn't test themselves
<jdong> also, the plain having a title can be a major motivation to some people
<SD-Plissken> Don't get me wrong I'm not against it. I'm simply saying that for it to beneficial users would have to bug test beyond just the simple install.
<forumsmatthew> I propose ubuntugeek contacts henrik
<forumsmatthew> (just moving us on)
<jdong> SD-Plissken: this would be a good first step towards henrik getting a tem of serious testers
<ubuntugeek> sd: henrik, details what he wants/needs here http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=383067 very well.
<jdong> s/serious/dedicated/
<ubuntugeek> next?
<forumsmatthew> meeting time?
<jdong> meeting time...
<MikeB-> I'm free other than Tuesday after 1800 UTC
<forumsmatthew> I'm very flexible
<ubuntugeek> I am flexible as well
* jdong exports public google calendar
<forumsmatthew> I prefer Tues, Wed or Thurs
<MikeB-> before 1500 UTC any day is doable, but a pain
<bapoumba> (I cannot get to IRC from work)
<Vorian> at the last meeting, someone suggested Sunday evening (US)
<jdong> http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/of4mkbspt8b9puvs651vp79nqk%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
<jdong> iCal
<jdong> ical should handle timezones....
<jdong> my W/F are pretty good....
<jdong> the whole weekend too
<ubuntugeek> Wednesdays are fine for me
<MikeB-> wednesdays work for me
<forumsmatthew> want to try 2nd Wed of April at 1800 UTC?
<Vorian> later on wednesday so kiwi can make it?
<forumsmatthew> what is a good time for him?
<jdong> 18:00UTC won't work for me...
<PriceChild> well it'd be much better for him a few hours on won't it?
<jdong> I got a class then
<Vorian> @schedule sidney
<jdong> 19:00/20:00 would be fine
<PriceChild> otherwise kiwi'd need to get up at 6am :s
<forumsmatthew> 20:00UTC would work for me
<bapoumba> fine for me
<ubuntugeek> 20:00 UTC is fine for me on wednesdays
<Vorian> cool
<MikeB-> that is fine for me
<Vorian> so the second wednesday of april then?
<Vorian> (april 11th)
<ubuntugeek> jdong?
<forumsmatthew> let's try it and see how it works... +1
<jdong> ubuntugeek: +1
<MikeB-> +1
<bapoumba> +1
<ubuntugeek> +1
<ubuntugeek> vorian: can you contact whoever does the schedule and get it changed for us?
<Vorian> yep
<SD-Plissken> sounds cool to me.
<ubuntugeek> for the second wednesday of each month at 20:00utc
<ubuntugeek> great
<Vorian> ubuntugeek, message sent :)
<ubuntugeek> lovely, i am going to add a last minute item to the agenda
<ubuntugeek> if we dont get to it today next time is fine
<Vorian> ubuntugeek, we have and hour and a half left with only 1 item remaining
<forumsmatthew> I'm hoping we can get to it...
<forumsmatthew> :0
<forumsmatthew> :)
<forumsmatthew> forgot the shift key...
<ubuntugeek> ok lets move on :)
<Vorian> Next item is
<Vorian> Ubuntu Forums Staff Hiring Procedure
<Vorian> MikeB-, want to start this one off?
<MikeB-> first off I think the current procedure is fine, but I thought it would be god idea to formalize it
<SD-Plissken> formalize it??
<jdong> SD-Plissken: it's right now "it happens when it happens", no formal guidelines
<MikeB-> and also diverse the mentions of selecting staff and get more community feeedback
<jdong> SD-Plissken: every other Ubuntu process has a formal writeup of how it's done....
<SD-Plissken> I see..
<ubuntugeek> Also remember when the FC governance negociations were taking place this is something i did not want to change.
<ubuntugeek> negotiations*
<forumsmatthew> I propose this (it's basically what we are doing...): take suggestions from staff, discuss them among the admins, hire those that look the best to us, or others that we find on own
<PriceChild> Well its not something we have to change, we just have to explain how it happens :)
<jdong> I don't feel anything against our hiring procedures, but I think it's better if we have it down on paper
<jdong> even if it just describes how it's done now
<PriceChild> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
<forumsmatthew> I can write it up so it sounds a little better
<ubuntugeek> jdong: having it down on paper is fine
<Vorian> PriceChild, good point.
<MikeB-> I think how is done is fine
<SD-Plissken> forumsmatthew,and just how well are the staff suggestions taken in to account when the final choice is made?
<forumsmatthew> SD-Plissken, we look at those suggested and sincerely consider them
<ubuntugeek> We should take the staff suggestions and discuss it at a FC meeting to determine the final applicants
<ubuntugeek> We always take the staff opinions into consideration
<Vorian> couldn't the FC just use the mailing list to make these decisions?
<MikeB-> lets break this up into parts
<PriceChild> I don't think any more than "the FC members will take current staff opinions into consideration" is needed.
<SD-Plissken> ubuntugeek I'm not saying you guys don't,however. you all have the final say  on these things,and it would be a shame to see someone added to this team only to find out they don't work well with those on staff.
<PriceChild> (for that part)
<jdong> SD-Plissken: if a staff member voices the slightest objection, we take that really seriously
<SD-Plissken> jdong I guess..
<jdong> I would go as far to say that inhibits my approval of the new candidate.
<forumsmatthew> SD-Plissken, is there some specific incident you are recalling where staff input was not considered?
<forumsmatthew> and it caused problems among the current staff?
<SD-Plissken> no I'm not recalling any problems current that have not been handle with respect. however. things have changed since the FC which has not really been tested.
<forumsmatthew> Okay. If there are no further comments on that, I propose we move on.
<forumsmatthew> I can write up the current process, send it to the admins on the mailing list for approval, and then we can get it posted.
<Vorian> last item
<Vorian> duplicate forum accounts
<Vorian> How shall we deal with users who create duplicate accounts after requestion their account be deleted or they are banned.
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: +1 sounds good
<ubuntugeek> mikeb: you ok with that? since it was your item
<jdong> +1
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek: it is fine
<ubuntugeek> k
<jdong> Vorian: I'd say merge or delete on first offense, depending on how many posts the dupe has.
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek: +1, I think improvement could be made but I dod not want to go againist previous agreements
<jdong> Vorian: and give a final warning
<jdong> Vorian: both accounts are disabled on second offense
<PriceChild> I think we should have much harsher measures when the create a new account with existing infractions.
<PriceChild> *they
<ubuntugeek> mikeb: what kinda of improvements? might as well discuss them :)
<MikeB-> I think we should not delete account at all, except for cases of hassassment
<forumsmatthew> MikeB-, +1 no account deletion
<forumsmatthew> we could remove personal data...email addresses, etc
<Vorian> If they request that their account be deleted, there should be some amount of time before they can create a new one.
<forumsmatthew> but leave the account intact
<PriceChild> e.g. Goat Spirit, Ben Sprinkle etc.
<jdong_> ow, network kicked me....
<jdong_> I'm gonna head to class and re-join the meeting from there
<ubuntugeek> I agree on the no account deletion
<jdong_> back in 10m
<ubuntugeek> because it makes all that users posts goto "unknown" and its hard to track issues
<forumsmatthew> let's all hide before he comes back...     ;)
<MikeB-> lol
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, that's exactly what I was thinking
<forumsmatthew> I still wish certain accounts existed for just that reason
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek: it can wait for comment (staff hiring)
<ubuntugeek> OK, so no account deletion period. I think if the user wants his account removed. We can change the password and set the email to something else /dev/null or something
<forumsmatthew> If their personal data, like the email address used for signing up, were removed I think that would count as us doing what is necessary if a user wants to leave
<ubuntugeek> Some of these people we really need to keep an archive of.
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, you typed faster...
<MikeB-> so no account deletion, first dup account warning/infraction, second account dup ban
<ubuntugeek> Mikeb: +1 sounds perfect
<forumsmatthew> MikeB-, +1
<MikeB-> third account dup, my foot up their %#%@
<forumsmatthew> I can add that in the Forums CoC when I add the stuff about the jail
<SD-Plissken> MikeB thats not very ubuntu.. lol
<bapoumba> MikeB-, do not circimvent the filters ^^
<forumsmatthew> bapoumba, lol!!!!!!!!!1
<bapoumba> *circumvent
<MikeB-> sorry the DST bugs have gotten to me:)
<bapoumba> ;-D
<ubuntugeek> we should add this to the guidelines as well
<forumsmatthew> I'll do it when I add the "jail" stuff
<ubuntugeek> sounds good
<Vorian> any other business?
<ubuntugeek> I would like to formalize a process for 3rd party sections and create a request forum like the loco's have. any objections?
<forumsmatthew> I think that would be helpful
<MikeB-> ubuntusounds fine
<SD-Plissken> I can hear the mythtv folks beating a path to that door.. lol
<forumsmatthew> Only if they are devs. :)
<SD-Plissken> right!!!
<ubuntugeek> because right now i just get a PM and it ends up going back and forth for a month before i get all teh info
<PriceChild> Could we also discuss a desktop-effects section if no-one has to go?
<SD-Plissken> the request method seems reasonable to me ubuntugeek.
<SD-Plissken> Pricechild you going to run it?
<PriceChild> Does it really have to be "run"? :)
<Vorian> desktop-effects is a good idea
<ubuntugeek> would this be for discussing like beryl and such?
<PriceChild> beryl, compiz, kiba-dock etc.
<SD-Plissken> Well I would think someone would have to be available to the help the endless users with wah wah my beryl broke my x wont start ect.
<forumsmatthew> I propose we change jdong's title in the forums to something more amusing than "Ultimate Coffee Grinder" since he's not here
<forumsmatthew> sorry, offtopic
<Vorian> SD-Plissken, at least there would be a place for those posts :)
<PriceChild> SD-Plissken, We get hundreds of downloads of beryl every day from our ubuntu repos. There are lots of pleas for help in the forums, and there are lots of replies. I don't think there is a lack of users ready to help.
<PriceChild> s/hundreds/thousands/
<forumsmatthew> I'm okay with making desktop-effects
<PriceChild> Compositing is only going to become a bigger "feature" with time... and I think we should embrace it.
<PriceChild> Especially with desktop-effects being installed by default in feisty
<MikeB-> Is it ok if a leave a little early, got some problems at my office that need my attention :)
<SD-Plissken> i'm ok with it as well as long as there help available to those who post there.
<forumsmatthew> see you later, MikeB-. I think we're winding up
<ubuntugeek> +1 i'll make it today
<Vorian> SD-Plissken, I'm willing to help :)
<ubuntugeek> price send me a PM with a description of it
<PriceChild> description?
<MikeB-> later all:)
<Vorian> bye MikeB-
<ubuntugeek> yeah
<PriceChild> ah... the short sentence under the title?
<ubuntugeek> yep
<PriceChild> will do :)
<ubuntugeek> cool
<ubuntugeek> great thanks everyone for another good meeting
<SD-Plissken> Vorian I'm sure mostly all of us are willing to help though it would mean having to get sorted with the workings of beryl,and compiz.
<forumsmatthew> thanks, everyone, for participating!
<SD-Plissken> your welcome...
<ubuntugeek> one thing i found is alot of times when a forum category gets popular it runs itself
<forumsmatthew> and you get people with a strong interest. Sometimes we find good mods that way
<ubuntugeek> yep
<ubuntugeek> ok gotta get going guys.. thanks again
<forumsmatthew> bye, ubuntugeek
<forumsmatthew> I'm leaving as well
<Vorian> bye ubuntugeek
<bapoumba> bye
<Vorian> see ya forumsmatthew
<PriceChild> :)
<PriceChild> jdong, too late ;)
<SD-Plissken> latter
<Vorian> wb jdong
<jdong> bleh :)
<Vorian> we decided to shut down the forums
<jdong> well A for effort
<jdong> Vorian: I was gonna propose that
<Vorian> lol
<jdong> Vorian: and move our operations to #ubuntuforums
<Vorian> thats the tiket :P
<SD-Plissken> to quote jdong: thats what she said.. lol
<PriceChild> hehe
<jdong> lol
<Vorian> lol
<jdong> SD-Plissken: you learn fast :D
<SD-Plissken> I gues so..
<SD-Plissken> *guess*
<aamachu> hi
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 13 Mar 15:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 15:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 14:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 05:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 10:00: Xubuntu
<mark007> @schedule newyork
<mark007> @schedule new york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 13 Mar 16:00: Technical Board | 14 Mar 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 15:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 06:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 11:00: Xubuntu
<AlexC_> morning?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<pitti> hi
<sistpoty> hi
<Keybuk> mdz: ping
<mdz> Keybuk: hi
<mdz> I don't think we have anything on the agenda
<Keybuk> would you like to drive? :p
<Keybuk> Nominations; but without sabdfl, I don't think there's anything we can do there?
<mdz> sabdfl said he would be by
<mdz> meanwhile, I posted a proposal to t-b that we change ubuntu-core-dev to a restricted team rather than a moderated team
<Keybuk> how would people announce their intention to become core?
<mdz> with the rationale that a great majority of the people trying to join are just having fun with launchpad rather than being serious applicants
<mdz> all of the legitimate ones know that the tech board are the folks to talk with, and I would update the wiki docs as well
<mdz> prospective core developers are expected to already know things like the fact that the tech board approves new core developers :-)
<mdz> sabdfl agreed on t-b; I'm interested in any thoughts from you or mjg59
<Keybuk> my only thought is that we'd lose the nice "Proposed Members" list, sorted by date
<Keybuk> though otoh, it would force people to actually turn up :p
<mdz> to be honest, I expect we'll want to start doing more of the process by email, assuming that works well for the MOTU council
<Keybuk> *nods*
<mdz> so there will be more communication leading up to the meeting
<Keybuk> it worked for asac
<mdz> and less administrative hassle
<Keybuk> I certainly wouldn't say no :p
<Keybuk> (to less administrivia)
<mdz> I like the idea of actually talking live to candidates, though we would supplement it with more email communications, and have the option of bypassing the meeting for fast-tracking
<mdz> or for other special cases where meeting attendance might be problematic
<Keybuk> agree
<mdz> <sabdfl> mdz: what's the meeting schedule this eve? i will grab a quick bite then be available
<Keybuk> "Mark, meet Google Calendar, I have a feeling you two may become good friends" <g>
<mdz> I'll be around for a while if he turns up, but will be on the phone
<tepsipakki> so, there will be no meeting?
<ajmitch> not if there was nothing to talk about
<tepsipakki> well, nominations..
<ajmitch> are they announced or decided yet?
<tepsipakki> I meant core-dev ;)
<ajmitch> sorry, I thought you meant tb nominations
<daviey> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: Current meeting: Technical Board | 14 Mar 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00: Xubuntu
<toma> @schedule amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Technical Board | 14 Mar 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 20:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 11:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 16:00: Xubuntu
<sabdfl> evening all
<sistpoty> hi sabdfl
<juliux> hi sabdfl
<ajmitch> hello sabdfl
<toma> Is the TB meeting already over?
<sabdfl> i don't think there was much on the agenda
<sabdfl> i got here late, too
<tepsipakki> well, I was here as a core-dev nominee, but it can wait
<toma> i was planning on lurking, so I can wait too ;-)
<StevenK> As was I, and I'm happy to wait, too
<ajmitch> seems that the meeting started about 90 minutes ago
<tepsipakki> heh
<ajmitch> or there's just timezone confusion again :)
<toma> yep
<toma> we can do an alternative meeting with this small group...
* beuno points everyone to the Firefox "FoxClocks" extension: https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1117/
<sabdfl> mdz, want to deal with -core-dev candidates?
<mdz> sabdfl: we didn't have any, nor anything else on the agenda except the ubuntu-core-dev LP change (which you and Scott ack'd, so I went ahead with it)
<StevenK> There was tepsipakki and I.
<StevenK> tepsipakki seems to have disappeared, though.
<sabdfl> StevenK: LP url?
<StevenK> launchpad.net/~stevenk
<sabdfl> StevenK: what areas of the free software stack are you most interested in?
<StevenK> I'm mostly a dabbler, so I'll touch anything, but I'm interesting in packaging, web frameworks and well, most things.
<StevenK> Sorry if I'm babbling. :-)
<sabdfl> np
<sabdfl> i see you've touched quite a diversity of packages as part of motu
<mdz> StevenK: I didn't see either of you here until an hour after the meeting was scheduled; was there confusion over the time?
<sabdfl> timezones are all over the show this week
<StevenK> mdz: No, I was trying to get here for 7am local, and didn't quite make it.
<sabdfl> StevenK: what impressions do you have of MOTU processes?
<sabdfl> StevenK: is there a focus for what you want to do in main?
<StevenK> I'm quite happy with the MOTU processes. I haven't seen much of the MOTU Council of course, but the initial indications look promising.
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: pong
<StevenK> My main focus for wanting to help with main is to provide some man-power to helping out with bug fixes and (at the start of a new cycle) merges. Sponsoring stuff in that looks sane also springs to mind.
<sabdfl> ok, how long have you been a DD?
<StevenK> Since 2001
<StevenK> Ummm. July or something
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me, i like the diversity of the things you've done in both ubuntu and debian
<daviey> What does DD stand for?
<StevenK> Debian Developer
<daviey> ah
<daviey> ty
<StevenK> As opposed to a cup size.
* StevenK ducks.
<sabdfl> or, for that matter, a disk image copier ;-)
<daviey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_(Unix)   -    confused me
<sabdfl> mdz will ack or comment in due course
<StevenK> Ahh, I keep forgetting about dd(1)
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: do you have a few sentences of introduction?
<mdz> StevenK: what do you expect to be different about your participation as a core developer rather than a motu?
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: a sec
<StevenK> mdz: Being able to help out more, without having to pay attention to where in the archive something lives. That is not to say that I'll stop paying attention to detail, though.
* sistpoty cheers for StevenK, now that he can't cheer for motu applications any longer
<sistpoty> applicants even
<mdz> StevenK: one of the most important differences is that the impact of your work on users and other developers is much greater
<StevenK> sistpoty: :-)
<tepsipakki> oh, I've forgot to update my wiki
<mdz> StevenK: and for that reason, it's important that core developers be very well informed about the policies and procedures which apply to main
<StevenK> mdz: Yes, of course. I have always been very careful with, for example, motu-sru
<StevenK> mdz: Certainly. At this point I wouldn't upload anything to main without talking to Mithrandir, being this close to beta.
<mdz> StevenK: what criteria would you consider when evaluating whether a particular issue justified an SRU in main, and if you decided it was, how would you proceed?
<StevenK> mdz: I have already filed and dealt with an SRU in main.
<mdz> StevenK: can you answer the question anyway?
<StevenK> mdz: If the problem is a serious regression from a previous release, can't be worked around, and is able to patched easily, I would subscribe ubuntu-sru to the bug, and look at creating a debdiff.
<StevenK> mdz: I was, as you can see, it took a sec to type.
<mdz> StevenK: it's a good idea to get an ack from the SRU team before spending time creating the fix, just in case they disagree on the nature of the issue, but yes, thanks
* StevenK nods.
<mdz> StevenK: in addition to the routine work you mentioned earlier, do you have any interest in starting new feature projects?
<StevenK> mdz: Indeed. The about-ubuntu spec in launchpad has my fingerprint all over it.
<StevenK> Er, fingerprints
<sabdfl> i also type with one finger, no shame there
<StevenK> I'm not certain if mpt has thrown the spec at me yet, though.
* StevenK tends to be a three finger typist.
<mdz> StevenK: ok, thanks for your time and contributions
<mdz> +1 from me as well
<sabdfl> ok, i'll mail the transcript to keybuk and mjg59 and ask them to ack, first to do so can update LP directly
<sabdfl> StevenK: they may ping you to chat on IRC, or JFDI
<mdz> StevenK: since we're doing this outside of a scheduled meeting, I'd like to run your application by the TB mailing list briefly before a final decision
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: you're up!
<StevenK> sabdfl: Aye, so noted.
<sabdfl> https://beta.launchpad.net/~tepsipakki/+packages
<StevenK> mdz: Sure
<mdz> StevenK: (since they didn't have the opportunity to speak with you)
<tepsipakki> Hi, my name is Timo Aaltonen, and I'm the one doing X lately: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
<mdz> sabdfl: perhaps Ubugtu should translate beta URLs into non-beta
<tepsipakki> ..as can be seen from the packages page
<mdz> tepsipakki: I know you've been working through a few sponsors
<sabdfl> mdz: beta should nicely redirect non-beta users to the non-beta site shortly
<mdz> tepsipakki: are any of them here to give feedback on your work?
<mdz> sabdfl: oh, that's even better I guess
<tepsipakki> mdz: and I've yet to reply to your latest post :)
<tepsipakki> yes, seb128 and kylem seem to be here?
<mdz> it's a bit late in the evening for seb
<seb128> mdz: not in a GNOME 2.18 week :p
<tepsipakki> heh
<mdz> seb128: :-)
<sabdfl> le mashine!
<mdz> seb128: thanks for fixing yelp
<seb128> mdz: np ;)
<seb128> tepsipakki has made good work on most of the xorg merges with Debian and updates
<mdz> my feisty installs and upgrades this week have been looking good
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: i see you've touched X, what's your primary interest there?
<seb128> some mistakes with the recent updates, not so much with the xorg 7.2 work
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: for feisty; to make it work right on more hardware
<mdz> tepsipakki took it upon himself to get X 7.2 merged into feisty
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: first motivation was to get my radeon work better, since it was mostly unusable on edgy with DRI
<seb128> he has been organized on that and did a good job
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: any other areas f the distro that you are interested in?
<mdz> kylem: are you here?
<mdz> tepsipakki: how long have you been a MOTU?
<tepsipakki> mdz: only for two months
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: yes, let me put them in words :)
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: in general, Ubuntu should and could support more hardware that corporate customers buy
<tepsipakki> but I know that this is mostly a kernel issue, and AIUI the backports-modules framework is going to help with that
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: are you involved in other free software projects than Ubuntu?
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: not really
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: well, I've bugged the linux-nfs guys in the past
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: what software engineering background do you have?
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: I've mostly been involved with administrative tools, so no real software projects as such
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
<tepsipakki> tools that evolve over time
<mdz> tepsipakki: I have a number of project ideas around X which I've been mulling over and discussing with folks for a while now.  mind if I ask for your input on some of them?
<tepsipakki> sure
<tepsipakki> I've seen some on the wiki
<tepsipakki> and read the Debian XSF roadmap
<mdz> tepsipakki: simple x mode selection, for example
<mdz> currently, it's quite a bit more complex than it needs to be to override the autodetected settings for a video mode
<tepsipakki> yes
<mdz> while we guess pretty well, we aren't perfect, and it's unlikely that we'll be perfect on every possible hardware combo
<mdz> if you're familiar with the approach I've proposed, what do you think of it?
<tepsipakki> upstream is raving about RandR-1.2, which should basically make it alot easier
<mdz> whether you're familiar with it or not, do you have other ideas about how to accomplish the overall goal?
<tepsipakki> do you have an URL handy?
<mdz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/simple-x-mode-selection
<mdz> but I don't expect you to digest it right now during the meeting
<tepsipakki> heh, no but I'll quickly check it out
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: how long have you been in MOTU?
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: two months now..
<StevenK> [09:26]  < mdz> tepsipakki: how long have you been a MOTU?
<StevenK> [09:26]  < tepsipakki> mdz: only for two months
<StevenK> If I can help.
<mdz> tepsipakki: is RandR 1.2 part of the 7.2 stuff in feisty, or will it arrive with the 1.3 server refresh?
<mdz> or not until 7.3?
<sabdfl> given that it's only been 2 months, what's the rationale for pushing quickly into -core-dev?
<tepsipakki> mdz: in 1.3
<sabdfl> 7.3?
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: since Mithrandir asked me to :)
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: around?
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: xorg-server-1.3, now at rc1
<mdz> sabdfl: X 7.2 is in feisty, X 7.3 is planned for after feisty's release, but in between they're putting out a new server version (decoupled from the big X releases)
<tepsipakki> yes, and I'm running that one on my home desktop
<sabdfl> oh, that's going to make things a lot more confusing for us mortals
<tepsipakki> heh
<mdz> sabdfl: it will make it easier for us to take in newer bits
<tepsipakki> mdz: to answer the question; yes, we will need a gui to make it easier to adjust some settings, but mostly I'd like it to be autoprobed as much as possible
<tepsipakki> and that seems to be the upstream goal as well
<mdz> tepsipakki: we already have a gui which is fairly nice, though the way we configure the server makes it not very useful
<tepsipakki> the monolithic xorg.conf could be split up and put it a xorg.conf.d/ directory or similar (as proposed on the XSF roadmap), and then make it very modular and flexible for the admin
<tepsipakki> s/and then/that would/
<mdz> tepsipakki: the issue is that the server selects the default mode based on configured ranges, which also affect the range of available modes
<mdz> what we want is to be able to choose a default mode which we're very confident will work, but let the user override it with a higher-spec mode if they know their hardware is capable
<tepsipakki> crt's are a problem
<mdz> they'll be with us for a long while yet :-)
<tepsipakki> since the highest mode isn't always usable..
<tepsipakki> true
<mdz> I scandalously still use a CRT myself
<mdz> tepsipakki: right, that's why I propose to put the choice in the hands of the user
<tepsipakki> I tried my desktop without a conffile, and it used a resolution I didn't know it was capable of :)
<StevenK> mdz: Ah, but what size CRT?
<mdz> Windows uses a similar scheme, and it's simple and intuitive
<mdz> StevenK: 19"
* StevenK hugs his 19" LCD
<StevenK> Well, it's more $WORK than mine, but oh well
<tepsipakki> mine too, Nokia 446Pro, normally 1600x1200 but it used some 2xxx*18xx
<mdz> tepsipakki: another area I've thought about is bullet-proof-x, which means ensuring that the user can always get to a basic, usable desktop no matter what
<mdz> even if they swap out their video card or monitor, e.g.
<tepsipakki> that's where autoprobing helps
<tepsipakki> but again, doesn't always work
<mdz> the proposal was for a sort of "safe mode" which would use the settings most likely to work, with an absolute minimum of autodetection
<tepsipakki> a fallback-conf
<mdz> yes
<ajmitch> not even vesa works on all hardware, I've heard
<tepsipakki> ajmitch: yep
<tepsipakki> painfully aware of that :)
<mdz> it's true, and there's no one mode which works everywhere either
<tepsipakki> besides, for some reason our vesa is dog-slow
<StevenK> X linked against libaa?
<mdz> but the current situation is rather more dire
<mdz> changing from one perfectly supported piece of hardware to another produces a non-working system
<mdz> which can only be repaired with cryptic CLI commands
<tepsipakki> that's right
<mdz> tepsipakki: I've been told by some that Fedora is now relying on the X server to do hardware probing, running without a config file.  do you know if that is true?
<mdz> I know for a fact that there are some cases our system handles which that approach doesn't (yet?), so I'm interested to know how we should approach that decision
<mdz> we eventually want to move toward something like that, but without regressing in cases where we currently do well
<tepsipakki> mdz: I burned F6.91 livecd and tried it on a Thinkpad Z61p, and that did have a configfile
<tepsipakki> they are using a rather exotic combination anyway
<mdz> interesting
<mdz> I'll have to play with it in vmware and see what they're up to
<tepsipakki> xorg-server-1.2.99.901 with libx11-1.0.3 :P
<StevenK> Fedora runs two X servers on boot from what I've seen, too. It's wacky.
<StevenK> Their splash screen is in X, from what I've heard.
<tepsipakki> they have some wacky patches as well, such that won't get upstream
<mdz> tepsipakki: I'd like to give Mithrandir and others a chance to give us feedback about your work so far, especially since you've only been involved for a relatively short time. would it be OK with you if we continued this conversation by mail and got a bit more input before deciding?
<tepsipakki> mdz: sure, no problemo
<sabdfl> i'll include this in the mail to the rest of TB
<sabdfl> thanks all
<mdz> if he encouraged you to attend the meeting, perhaps he was around earlier, but he isn't now
<mdz> any other business for the meeting?
<mdz> or post-meeting, as it were
<tepsipakki> well, maybe he just didn't want me to bug him every now and then ;)
<mdz> ok, thanks all
<mdz> good night
<ajmitch> tepsipakki: are you still wanting to do some of the ubuntu-directory stuff?
<ajmitch> night mdz
<tepsipakki> ajmitch: oh that
<tepsipakki> ajmitch: if I have the time :)
<ajmitch> hehe :)
<ajmitch> you sound like me
<shawarma> ajmitch: What's the story with that? Package fedora directory server or something more?
* ajmitch has so far managed to get some client config stuff in
<ajmitch> shawarma: yeah, I've been quietly working on that
<ajmitch> that's 1 part of it
<ajmitch> fds, samba, kerberos, etc
<tepsipakki> ajmitch: you've done the client-connector or what it is called?
<tepsipakki> I have high hopes for samba4
<ajmitch> tepsipakki: authtool, but I need to do another upload soon to fix some issues
<ajmitch> samba4 is a *long* way off
* Burgwork goes searching for authtool int eh archives
<tepsipakki> yes, unfortunately
<Burgwork> :)
<ajmitch> Burgwork: been there for weeks/months
<Burgwork> really?
<ajmitch> yep
<tepsipakki> it got in just before FF :)
<tepsipakki> IIRC
* ajmitch didn't put in the decent UI, since it was still being worked on
<ajmitch> so I need to update it asap :)
<tepsipakki> heh
<ajmitch> it's currently a bit basic
<tepsipakki> is it based on the fedora tool?
<Burgwork> ajmitch: should i bother filing bugs
<Burgwork> ?
<Burgwork> anyway, back to the directory stuff
<ajmitch> Burgwork: there are a few filed already
<ajmitch> not based on the fedora tool
<ajmitch> we should move to #ubuntu-directory
<tepsipakki> hmm, I forgot to mention installer work
<tepsipakki> oh well
* ajmitch has to leave in about 2 minutes, though
<tepsipakki> and I need to get some sleep :P
<ajmitch> :)
<tepsipakki> it's 1am here
<ajmitch> ok, see you later
<tepsipakki> yeah, bye
* ajmitch departs for awhile
<shawarma_> ajmitch: /win 3
<shawarma_> er.. no.
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-03-14
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Mar 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 19:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00: Kernel Team
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 15 Mar 07:00: Edubuntu | 16 Mar 06:00: Audio Team | 16 Mar 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 21:00: MOTU Council | 18 Mar 02:00: Xubuntu | 20 Mar 02:00: Kernel Team
<pochu> stgraber: feel free to join #ubuntu-iso :)
<wolferine> <Seveas> i try to help you, you respond with personal atacks. You get banned. Simple <-- how did I personally attack you?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b *!*@unaffiliated/wolferine]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<sid> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 14 Mar 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Mar 15:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 06:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 11:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 11:00: Kernel Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
* ogra waves
<cbx33> hey ogra
* highvoltage waves back to ogra 
<pips1> hi
<RichEd> hey ogra
<highvoltage> howdy
<Burgwork> greetings
<RichEd> pips1:
<RichEd> highvoltage
<RichEd> And mr burger
<cbx33> hey Burgwork
<pips1> :-)
<cbx33> does the chapter look ok?
<Burgwork> not looked at it yuet
<cbx33> hehe
* Burgwork points to nick
<cbx33> oh yeh
<cbx33> can /me have a copy?
<Burgwork> yep
<ogra> so lets get started
<cbx33> indeed
<RichEd> Ogra : Technical is all yours
<ogra> i did a huge amount of ltsp fixes over the last days, people watching the feisty-changes list might have noticed that we are shipping a ltsp 5.0 package now officially https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/feisty-changes/2007-March/007075.html
<cbx33> :D
<cbx33> nice one ogra
<cbx33> you rock
<ogra> (with full ltsp.org agreement)
<cbx33> that rocks
<ogra> alongside the ltsp.org guys now ship our ltsp as tarball http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Ltsp5TarballInstructions
<highvoltage> ogra: it's going to be called 5.0.1, right?
<cbx33> awesome
<ogra> which means since you dont get ltsp5 for any other distros, that all peaople will boot debian or ubuntu clients until thats changed
<ogra> ;)
<cbx33> :)
<ogra> which indeed has the ubuntu usplash and ldm ;) ;) ;)
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> did my reset button make it?
<ogra> that will either bring us a lot of artwork submissions or ltsp.org the desired implementation in other distros ;)
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> cbx33, thats the reason i pasted the changelog address, you can look up if the reset button made it ;)
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> are we in using cairo now?
<cbx33> for ldm?
<ogra> the isos look ok so far, i didnt manage to make any test install yet but plan to do so tomorrow morning
<ogra> the cairo stuff for ldm is feisty+1 material ...
<cbx33> ahh
<cbx33> cool
<ogra> i only have the engine ready, but things like menus and buttons are not in yet
<ogra> and i'm not sure i want to keep it in pygtk
* highvoltage had problems with ltsp building with a daily build last week, but that has probably been fixed
* cbx33 is looking forward to adding some cool features
<cbx33> ogra: what you wanna make it?
<ogra> highvoltage, something about /proc/fd ?
<ogra> cbx33, C probably ...
<highvoltage> ogra: yes
<ogra> no toolkit at all ...
<cbx33> I can help you a little there then i hope
<cbx33> my c has imporved since last week
<ogra> highvoltage, thats worked around in the mentioned upload, a final fix is in my next upload
<ogra> cbx33, well, it will be a lot Xlib programming ...
<ogra> Xlib is the worst C lib you can touch
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> but its fast and slim
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> I'll help anyway I can
<ogra> anyway, i plan to have a spec for ldm refurbishing for feisty, we can discuss it in sevilla
<ogra> so much about te good tech news
<cbx33> ?
<ogra> the bad news are that TCM isnt ready yet, i just got another bunch of ltsp fixes and patches i need to review
<cbx33> :(
<ogra> and that we dont have any artwork yet
<cbx33> well
<cbx33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuArtwork/Palette
<cbx33> check out the first wallpaper
<ogra> blue
<cbx33> lisa did it today
<cbx33> well you said you like the one before...
<ogra> can she change the colors ?
<cbx33> we can change hue
<ogra> something that fits the colorscheme we have
<ogra> i liked the yellow/orange we had in edgy, but it was way to saturated ... probably an adaption of this color ...
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> could someone else please alo have an opinion on that ?
<ogra> *also
<cbx33> you like the concept?
<ogra> yes
* cbx33 prefers this new concept
<ogra> i like it as is, i'm just not keen on blue
<pips1> I'm not keen on blue either
<cbx33> cool
<pips1> I think blue is the color that statistically most people like, though
<ogra> whats that text at the bottom right ?
<Burgwork> pips1: blue is also not really a colour people associate with Ubuntu/Edubuntu, and lots of other vendors use it
<cbx33> it's from the edubuntu homepage i think
<ogra> ah
<pips1> Burgwork: yeah
<ogra> i wonder if we could have something creative in there ... but i have no idea currently
<cbx33> well
<Burgwork> a muted orange and red theme? is that too overdone?
<cbx33> let's work it up and see what happens
<pips1> on my current screen (thinkpad laptop LCD) I can't read that text anyway..
<cbx33> heh
<cbx33> it was supposed to only be a hint
<ogra> Burgwork, not at all, if the orange is a decent
<ogra> one
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> Lisa is next to me
<cbx33> so she's getting all this
<ogra> the usplash we had in edgy was way to mean to your eyes many people said (i liked it though)
* cbx33 liked it
<cbx33> but understood
<pips1> cbx33: yep, the text contrast is so low, it's really subtle -D
<ogra> the wallpaper color was fine imho, but there a lot of people complained as well ...
<cbx33> is the text on that wallpaper ok ogra ?
<cbx33> lisa just asked?
<ogra> so it probably should be a softened variant of the edgy wallpaper
<ogra> cbx33, sure
<cbx33> just colours change
<cbx33> you're doing slpash?
<ogra> i'd just love to have something wittier than or website text, but it will do if we dont have anything else
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> and i dont have any ideas what else to use atm
<cbx33> I'll see what I can come up with
<cbx33> http://www.popey.com/Ubuntu_is_sexy_alright
<cbx33> are we splashing like that
<cbx33> what about a testamonial about ubuntu? for the text?
<ogra> no idea yet i'll try to make something that fits the wallpaper and gdm
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> its the interconnecting bit
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> but its small and quickly made ....
<cbx33> are you doing gdm?
<ogra> i'll try to grab kwwii's ubuntu theme and adjust the colors
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> what about a testamonial about ubuntu? for the text?
<ogra> do you have an example ?
<cbx33> no
<cbx33> but i can get the youthLUG kids to write some
<cbx33> what you think?
* highvoltage is not such a big fan of the new ubuntu gnome-splash, tbph
<ogra> sure, if you think you will get something good there ... i'm fine with the website text for now though
<ogra> highvoltage, dont like porn ?
<Burgwork> highvoltage: it doesn't fit with the rest of the theme
<cbx33> i havn't seen the new artwork
* ogra neither apart from the posted splash
<cbx33> heh
<Burgwork> that is the only piece that has changed, afaik
<cbx33> i like to wait till i first install feisty
<cbx33> ;)
<highvoltage> ogra: heh
<ogra> err, no, actually i have seen a gdm mockup ...
* ogra just remembered
<ogra> ok, so lets get that artwork done til tomorrow
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> send lisa a big hug from me :)
<cbx33> I'm hugging her right now
<cbx33> she slapped me
<highvoltage> kinky.
<cbx33> but that was apparently for me
<cbx33> not you :p
<ogra> beyond artwork, some ltsp fixes and TCM i currently think we're fine for beta ...
<cbx33> oi oi highvoltage
<ogra> any tech regarding questions ?
<cbx33> ogra: tcm?
<ogra> shoot
<cbx33> highvoltage: that was slap...not spank btw
<highvoltage> cbx33: hey, whatever does it for you!
<cbx33> do you think we should cripple the VNC stuff?
* cbx33 tapes highvoltage's mouth up
<pips1> hehe
<highvoltage> mmmm mm m mmm mm m
<pips1> lol
<Seveas> nnnn nn n nnn nn n
<ogra> cbx33, i'm still not through my TODO yet to look at the VNC stuff, but i think we should leave it in and have a popup with instructions how to get it running
<cbx33> ogra: ok
<cbx33> so let them setup a static password
<cbx33> in a file somewhere
<ogra> yes, something like that, i need to look deeper into the code ... hvent done that yet
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> well basically I just need to pass it a passwrd
<cbx33> as long as v11vnc uses it
<cbx33> it's fine
<ogra> well, basically we dont have a server
<ogra> the user needs instructions how to get it
<cbx33> can't we put x11vnc in the client root seed?
<cbx33> as it is
<ogra> no
<ogra> its not in main
<cbx33> why?
<cbx33> oh?
<cbx33> sorry
<ogra> and i dont think thats quickly doable ...
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> does it rely on a lot that is outside of main
<cbx33> or is it just security issues andMIR?
<cbx33> anyone got 404main handy?
<ogra> i dont think so, but i dont think the code/security is good
<cbx33> :(
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> http://secunia.com/search/?search=x11vnc
<ogra> there are two security entries
<cbx33> :(
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> so instructions it is
<cbx33> what about a script?
<cbx33> to do it for you?
<ogra> sure, if you get something together
<cbx33> install it and prompt for a password
<ogra> yep
<ogra> ok, any other tech bits ?
<cbx33> no
<cbx33> sorry
<ogra> any questions about tech ?
<cbx33> how do you do it ogra :p
<ogra> without sleep atm
<ogra> :)
<cbx33> :(
* highvoltage says that we need to get more members into edubuntu
<cbx33> yes
<ogra> and that wont get better until beta release /me thinks
* cbx33 is working on that
<highvoltage> (and that cbx33's recent blog entry on contributing is quite cool)
<highvoltage> cbx33++ for that :)
<cbx33> :) thanks highvoltage
<cbx33> i also posted and email to everyone in the edubutu school support team on LP
<cbx33> over 30 members
* highvoltage will also blog and scream on mailing lists and make some noise about edubuntu
<cbx33> to try to get helpers
<highvoltage> I think everyone should for the next few weeks
<cbx33> i will do more
<cbx33> sorry guys
<highvoltage> sorry?
<ogra> cbx33 the waking apology
<cbx33> yeh
<ogra> *walking
<cbx33> for not doing more
<cbx33> mmmm fondu
<ogra> cbx33, you do enough ... no need to say sorry all the time ...
<cbx33> fruit and chocolate
<cbx33> i wish i could do more
* cbx33 is hoping we will have a GSoC this year
<highvoltage> cbx33: geez, you're the top community contributer atm, as far as I can tell, how can you want to apologise?
<cbx33> I'm hoping to bring him along to the next meeting
* ogra is still not sure he wants to mentor
* cbx33 is going to mentor
<highvoltage> cbx33: and btw, everyone in this channel has limits, often beyond their control
<cbx33> it's python and gtk
<ogra> great
<cbx33> a project called Coon
<cbx33> for teachers to store and analyse student marks and results
<ogra> ok, ltes move on ...
<ogra> *lets
<cbx33> sure
<highvoltage> blah!
<ogra> blah ?
<highvoltage> HedgeMage
* pochu has an item for the end of the meeting :)
<ogra> Technical Documentation
<HedgeMage> hi highvoltage
<cbx33> cool pochu ;)
<cbx33> does the book come in here?
<ogra> i'm trying to open edubuntu-docs but somehow yelp segfaults for me :(
<RichEd> cbx33: sure
<cbx33> :(
<ogra> in tech docs ?
<cbx33> i guess not :p
<ogra> i think the book is rather documentation ...
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> (why did we do this silly split, lets merge doc stuff)
<RichEd> well it's closer to tech docs than community docs ...
<cbx33> yes please
<cbx33> otherwise we all get confused
* RichEd makes a note to sort out the agenda ... and rename the bits more clearly
<ogra> thanks
<RichEd> so any comments on "broad brush stroke" documenation
<RichEd> *documentation
<RichEd> cbx33: the book ?
* cbx33 was waiting for anything else
<cbx33> mako has edited the chapter, is now awaiting Burgwork to check it over
<ogra> the edubuntu book ?
<cbx33> the official ubuntu book edubutnu chapter
<ogra> oh, the edubuntu chapter ...
<cbx33> how could you forget :p
<ogra> sorry i did only sleep about 10h the last 4 days
<ogra> i'm a bit slow in ym brain atm
<ogra> *my
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> dude that's gotta be not good for you
<cbx33> If i could pick up and slack i would
<cbx33> any
<ogra> so can anyone tell me where in yelp i find our new docs ?
<ogra> if i just open the help it doesnt show up
<ogra> no LaserJock ...
<cbx33> no
<cbx33> he was around earlier
<ogra> hrm
<ogra> would be nice to know wher and how to find them after install
<ogra> i was somehow expecting them to show up in yelp
<highvoltage> ogra, can't you look where they are in the -doc package?
<ogra> highvoltage, yes, but i didnt plan to put time into that during a meeting, and according to Laser the package was ready
<cbx33> heh
<ogra> i just installed it before the meeting to test them
<cbx33> next?
<highvoltage> ok
* cbx33 thinks ogra just fell asleep
<cbx33> aww
<ogra> nop
<ogra> fighting to find these docs on my system
<ogra> i found them but yelp doesnt
<cbx33> :(
<ogra> anyway, moving on if there is nothing else about docs
<ogra> another thing for tonight for me :/
<RichEd> yep ... willvdl is still in Argentina ... so we will not have any report from him
<RichEd> Have we covered artwork ? cbx33 anything more to add ?
<cbx33> nope
<RichEd> Community & Documentation & Web
<ogra> yelp /usr/share/gnome/help/edubuntu-handbook/C/handbook.xml works :)
<RichEd> Just a short report from me about the new www.ubuntu.com web site due to be released soon.
<ogra> seems we're only missing entries for it in the ubuntu main menu of yelp
<cbx33> RichEd: cool
<cbx33> when will it be ready
<RichEd> Christina (Marketing) and Matt Nuzum (Webmaster) and I will be working on www.ubuntu.com/education as a landing page for people looking at Ubuntu from the top down for the education sector.
<cbx33> excellent
<RichEd> So that page will cover: Products used in Education: Edubuntu & Ubuntu & Kubuntu
<ogra> ARGH
<RichEd> ogra ?
<ogra> sorry just reading the edubuntu handbook
<RichEd> oh :) thought that was a response to my comments, or you dropped your ciggie on your lap
<ogra> i have no clue where the ltsp chapter comes from, i have never seen it and its apparently documentation for a very old ltsp release
<ogra> giving totally wrong instructions ...
<highvoltage> RichEd: how's it going with the website pips1 is working on?
<ogra> thats not the doc i proofread
<cbx33> :(
<RichEd> highvoltage: will get to that in just a bit
<highvoltage> ok
<ogra> actually it seems to be for a redhat based ltsp version
<ogra> LaserJock, where does that ltsp chapter in the edubuntu handbook come from ?
<RichEd> Contuining then: And *buntu solutions in Education : as in Ubuntu in the Education Department Server Farm all the way across to Edubuntu in the School Classroom and Ubuntu in the School Admin
<LaserJock> ogra: sbalneav
<ogra> its surely not the one i proofread
<ogra> LaserJock, thats documentation for an ltsp 3.x version
<ogra> or older
* RichEd waits for the LTSP chat to sort itself out ... back in 1 min
<LaserJock> ogra: ??
<LaserJock> that's no good
<ogra>                 If the card is supported by Xorg 6.7, the pci_scan routine
<ogra>                 will return the name of the driver module.  If it is only
<ogra>                 supported by XFree86 3.3.6,
<ogra> etc etc
<highvoltage> ouch
<LaserJock> :(
<LaserJock> nixternal: pingy pingy!!!
<ogra> i read a variant of the ltsp chapter that was completely different
<ogra> but that was months ago
<LaserJock> ogra: nixternal was the one that did the merging of the Handbook from the old svn repo
<LaserJock> it could be something got lost or something
<pips1> uh uh
<ogra> no sbalneav :/
<ogra> crap ...
* ogra mails him
<LaserJock> sbalneav did do a bunch of work and I *thought* it made it into the doc team repo
<merriam> I'm interested in contributing to documentation.  Could it be made easier?
<LaserJock> merriam: it kinda depends on what kind of documentation, but we always are trying to make it easier for people to contribute.
<merriam> An open wiki might help.
<cbx33> wiki.ubuntu.com
<merriam> I mean for edubuntu.
<pips1> merriam, what do you mean by open? open to anonymous editing?
<LaserJock> same thing
<LaserJock> cbx33: and it's help.ubuntu.com/community
<ogra> merriam, wiki.edubuntu.org :)
<cbx33> sorry
<merriam> not anonymous -- just an easy sign-up process
<pips1> merriam: wiki.ubuntu.com and wiki.edubuntu.org are in the same database
<RichEd> merriam: accounts are via launchpad.net ... give you the rights to edit the wiki
<LaserJock> and "the wiki" means "both wikis" ;-)
<cbx33> LaserJock: help.ubuntu.com/community isn't open is it?
<LaserJock> sure it is
<cbx33> cool
<RichEd> if you are keen to help merriam, please send a mail to will@canonical.com
<ogra> cbx33, you can log in with your LP account as well there
<LaserJock> I think perhaps deletion is limited
<cbx33> awesome
<merriam> I see.  Last time I looked, I got the impression that the doc pages for edubuntu were all locked.  Perhaps I was confused.  thanks
<RichEd> he is away for the next 2 weeks, but he will be able to find out your interests, and skills, and help you find a chunk to chew on with guidance
<merriam> RichEd: thanks
<cbx33> will is excellent
<LaserJock> merriam: the Ubuntu doc team is also very helpful. #ubuntu-doc
<pips1> merriam, I think you are right, many edubunt-specific pages in the wiki are locked - last time i looked too
<LaserJock> I don't think they are locked
<merriam> I see.  I should be on #ubuntu-doc.  ok
<RichEd> merriam: will's got a "docs to sort out" and "docs to do" list, and would appreciate your help
<LaserJock> but if you go in via wiki.edubuntu.org you have to relogin
<RichEd> merriam: but if you are keen on Edubuntu & Education ... please don't defect to Ubuntu ;)
* LaserJock wollops RichEd  ;-)
* cbx33 wollops RichEd 
<cbx33> sorry
* RichEd is a man, he can take puny american wollops, and even wallops
<cbx33> that was
* cbx33 wollops LaserJock 
<LaserJock> RichEd:  haha, good point
<LaserJock> cbx33: now now, no need to get violent
<merriam> RichEd: I'm especially interested in edubuntu and ltsp, but I'm helping family and friends with ubuntu, so I'll always be there too...
<cbx33> merriam: awesome
<LaserJock> merriam: the Ubuntu doc team covers all flavors
* RichEd hands LaserJock a CherryUbuntu Lite
<LaserJock> oh, that does sound good
* LaserJock hasn't eaten yet
* cbx33 passes LaserJock a pie
<cbx33> is this the food section
<LaserJock> Edubuntu has overall had a strange fascination with food ;-)
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> cakes mainly
<LaserJock> wasn't the Handbook originally the Cookbook :-)
<pips1> LaserJock: true
<RichEd> Finishing off with Web & Community then:
<RichEd> [official ubuntu education space]  will be the www.ubuntu.com/education space, where all content is contributed by the core community (that's this channel) and is verified as 100% accurate and approved according to policy
<cbx33> oooh /me likes cakes
<RichEd> [community ubuntu education space]  will be the www.ubuntueducation.org space, where all content is primarily community contributed, largely forums & discussion driven, and where topics and opinions do not need to be strictly kosher
<cbx33> cool
<pips1> kosher, another food term
<RichEd> And edubuntu.org is the product space
<RichEd> And wiki.edubuntu.org and help etc are the support spaces.
<LaserJock> and they will all be linked to each other in a clear and consistent way, right?
* cbx33 hopes so
<RichEd> LaserJock: 100 percent
<LaserJock> well, we need to work on wiki.edubuntu.org
<RichEd> LaserJock: will has the work spec under control, he just needs warm bodies to help
<LaserJock> because users shouldn't be going there if it's just wiki.ubuntu.com in disguise
<RichEd> What I need to do for pips1 is to define the exact types of content that go in each space, and provide a Sites Map showing how they fit & link.
<RichEd> Once I have established the overall descriptions, we can all bunfight about what fits best where.
<LaserJock> yeah, it would seem like they'll end up overlapping quite a bit
<ogra> LaserJock, where am i supposed to find the docs from the edubuntu-docs package in yelp ? there is no trace of them in the main menu
<cbx33> pochu: you still there?
<pochu> sure :)
<pochu> my turn?
<cbx33> soon
<RichEd> LaserJock: to some degree yes, but the idea is that info comes in from the Community space e.g My school uses Edubuntu ...
<cbx33> just checking you were still there
<RichEd> give me 1 min wrapping up
<pochu> cbx33: ok :)
<LaserJock> ogra: not yet, sorry. We just got a patch from yelp upstream but I don't think it's made it in the package yet
<LaserJock> ogra: but if you do a search for LTSP they all come up
<ogra> LaserJock, patch for yelp ?
<ogra> why are they not the default index ?
<ogra> with a link ot the ubuntu docs
<LaserJock> ogra: because the front page is hard coded
<ogra> *to
<ogra> ARGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<ogra> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<ogra> !
<ogra> !
<cbx33> ogra: dude calm down
<LaserJock> and because edubuntu-docs depends on ubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> we had to figure out a way to have the right things show up when edubuntu-docs is installed
<ogra> is there a reason for that ? apart from "its more complete then"
<LaserJock> subtracting About Ubuntu and adding in our docs
<LaserJock> reason for what? the dep on ubuntu-docs?
<ogra> yes
<LaserJock> 1) yes, it's much more complete 2) the yelp front page is actually a mixture of files from yelp and ubuntu-docs
<ogra> i mean its pointless anyway since we ship both on the CD and edubuntu-desktop depends on them, but is there a technical reason for that dep ?
<LaserJock> we'd have to seriously rework the packages because ubuntu-docs and yelp own the files we need to modify
<ogra> LaserJock, dpkg-divert the index files ?
<LaserJock> so I *think* we could have done without the dep but we'd at least have to conflict with ubuntu-docs and maybe patch yelp
<ogra> i know thats ugly and evil, but one solution
<LaserJock> well, I think this is much easier than dpkg-divert
<LaserJock> we got the patch
<LaserJock> we just need to finalize what we want on the menu
<LaserJock> so we're removing Release Notes
<LaserJock> and just having About Edubuntu, Edubuntu Handbook, and Edubuntu Advocacy
<ogra> LaserJock, so there is a chance we get it fixed somehow for release ?
<LaserJock> oh sure
<LaserJock> the patch exists
<ogra> i mean the index stuff
<LaserJock> I just have to tell Matthew East what I want
<LaserJock> yes
<ogra> well, what about the freeze ... ?
<ogra> is the patch small enough to go in still ?
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think this would be affected by a freeze
<LaserJock> it's a bug fix
<cbx33> the big freeze
<ogra> ok
<cbx33> so wer're good
<cbx33> all calm
<LaserJock> the bug is that Edubuntu items don't show in the front page
<LaserJock> the fix is a patch from Yelp upstream
<ogra> cbx33, well, no ... i cant be calm about our most dynamic doc page being hardcoded in an app ...
<LaserJock> I just have to give mdke the particular items (name and description) we want
<cbx33> sorry ogra
<LaserJock> well, it'll be hardcoded, just in a semi-dynamic way ;-)
<ogra> cbx33, i love hardcoding ...
<ogra> until i run into hardcoded stuff from others
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> i know what you mean
<LaserJock> yes, the doc team is pushing the limits of what yelp can do
<ogra> good
<LaserJock> we are just waiting for a yelp replacement .... some time
<cbx33> LaserJock: how soon can you fix?
<ogra> as long as we have it fixed for release all is fine
<LaserJock> well, again. The patch exists, I just haven't confirmed with mdke about what items we want
<ogra> yep
<LaserJock> as I wanted to discuss it here first
<LaserJock> so I don't have to do it twice
<ogra> well, the handbook in its current state isnt shippable
<ogra> at least not the ltsp part
<ogra> i'll look over the other bits during the week ...
<LaserJock> well, the new stuff is somewhere
<ogra> must be
<ogra> i know i proofread it
<cbx33> heh
<LaserJock> we just gotta kidnap nixternal and beat him until he confesses where he put it ;-)
<cbx33> heheh
* LaserJock has been watching too much 24
<cbx33> hehe
<pips1> hehe
<cbx33> me too
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I think that might be against CoC ;)
<cbx33> and Lost
<pips1> heh
<pips1> parallel lives
<ogra> i would have noticed "If Xorg is used, then the /etc/build_x4_cfg script will be called to build an XF86Config file.
<cbx33> yup LaserJock and i do tend to watch the same stuff
<pips1> same here, and don't think we're alone ;-)
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> anyway
<RichEd> Just to finish my comment to LaserJock regarding overlap: To some degree yes, but the idea is that info comes in from the Community space e.g My school uses Edubuntu ... and then we push the user (gently) to see if we can get an official case study going on the school, with facts & figures ... using the wiki.edubuntu.org ... which we then clear for content statements & permissions etc. which then moves to the www.ubuntu.com/educ
<RichEd> ation when it is cleared for accuracy etc. so it can be quoted and published & promoted etc.
<RichEd> And again, some user on the community space may comment about an education application they are using, and then if we see it is popular, we get it reviewed by an education user (for target subject, ease of use, age level etc.) and then if it passes the Open Source conditions, we start a process to move it into main (security approvals etc.) aain using the wiki, and then onto www.ubuntu.com/education if it passes all tests.
<RichEd> If it does not pass, say it is not Open Source, and may even be commercial s/w (me holds up the garlic and silver bullets for protection) we do not stop the community from sharing info and support and help, but then it has to stay i the community space as it will not be officially supported by Ubuntu.
<cbx33> are we drawing to a close.......
* cbx33 has to be off soon....
<RichEd> yep ... I'm done after that blitz
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> pochu: ?
<LaserJock> RichEd: I can see the flow of information for sure, but people often google and land in the middle of nowhere
<pochu> here :)
<cbx33> everyone ready for pochu ?
<pochu> As you can see here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Matrix actually the core-devs are testing Edubuntu releases (herd, beta, rc) candidates, to see their integrity, and possible bugs in them. We want to set up a community team to do that, as you can see here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=383067 and http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=201 . We have this ATM: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Community . And we would like also t
<pochu> o have Edubuntu in the Community Testing
<LaserJock> RichEd: let's discuss this maybe a bit more in #edubuntu after the meeting?
<RichEd> LaserJock: maps & gps ... we'll have a clear path for them
<RichEd> LaserJock: /msg
<pochu> what do you think? how could we make this successful?
<nixternal> oi
<pips1> RichEd: LaserJock: I'd happily join the conversation
<nixternal> just got out of class, chillin' in the library studying for c++ test. did I miss much?
* cbx33 pounces on nixternal 
<cbx33> get im
<LaserJock> pochu: what is the purpose of Testing/Community?
<highvoltage> goodnight edubuntuboys & edubuntugirls! (me is dozing off here)
<pochu> LaserJock: test the ISO images, so the core-devs don't have to do it, and they can focus in fixing bugs
* nixternal runs
<pochu> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Matrix
<cbx33> nn highvoltage
<pochu> that's the core-devs page (a little reduced already)
<LaserJock> pochu: but I thought it was open to the community already? I don't understand what's new about it
<cbx33> nixternal: come back
<ogra> pochu, we initially did it via a wikipage where everyone culd just comment on his installation tests in a table ... i thought we would move on with that procedure and just switch to bugs instead of a wikipage ...
<pips1> see you highvoltage!
<RichEd> bye highvoltage
<cbx33> didn't someone want nixternal ?
<ogra> i would like to see the community inut on the same bugs i work on
<pochu> ogra: we are doing it on LP
<ogra> *input
<highvoltage> goodnight pips1 and RichEd and ogra and [PUPPETS] Gonzo!
<highvoltage> oops, I mean pochu!
<ogra> pochu, thats not what i mean, why the split community vs main devs
<ogra> ?
<ogra> night highvoltage
<pochu> ogra: as you can see in henrik's post in the forum, to let core-devs focus in bug-fixing, as that testing takes a lot of time
<pochu> and more time if they have to do 5 test cases ;)
<ogra> pochu, from an edubuntu POV its useless for me ... since i usually test the milestones as the only main dev
<pochu> ogra: that's not what I'm seeing here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Matrix
<ogra> so i really appreciate to see at a glance that someone has tested stuff on the same page i just report my results
<pochu> ogra: bdmurray is testing a lot of cases
<ogra> pochu, my job is edubuntu, i will test *every* install as i always do
<pochu> ogra: you should be reporting here: https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu-iso-tests/+bugs
<pips1> ogra: I just learned about heno and pochu's new testing methodology today... basically, I gather that they want to keep track of what testing has been done on what milestone (herd, dailies) and they seem to have started creating todo lists for the volunteers
* cbx33 is beat
<ogra> pochu, but i appreciate if bdmurray takes some indeed
<pochu> ogra: as I see in Testing/Matrix, tollef, henrik, brian murray and keybuk are also testing edubuntu
<ogra> pochu, i know where i have to report
<cbx33> ogra: when are you next on tcm?
<ogra> yes, i see that
<cbx33> i have time tomorrow evening to work on it
<pochu> s/tollef/sebastien/
<ogra> pochu, still i wont get any sleep if i havent tested all installs myself, its my job
<pochu> ogra: though if you are happy testing yourself it, I'm happy too :)
<cbx33> i will be trying to find time to test too
<ogra> pochu, i appreciate every help and will be able to prioritize though ...
<pochu> ogra: ok, it was just becouse then you would be able to focus on fixing bugs, but if you are going to test them anyway...
<nixternal> ogra: the LTSP docs you read a month ago, were they on HedgeMage's server or the doc server?
<cbx33> ogra: sorry dude I'm beat...i gotta go
<ogra> i also wasnt talking about the current beta tests but the general testing you seem to split into main vs community ...
<nixternal> I can't connect to HedgeMage's server
<pips1> nn cbx33 and don't forget to tell AliasVegas that I think she rocks!
<ogra> nixternal, i cant remember anymore, i mailed sbalneav, he should know exactly where they are
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> thanks pips1
<cbx33> I'll be around for a little while longer it seems
<ogra> nixternal, all i know is that the current ones are for a very old ltsp version
<ogra> even talking about XFree 3.3.*
<cbx33> has anyone noticed the meetings used to be only and hour now they are ususally 2?
<HedgeMage> nixternal: what do you need?
<ogra> cbx33, yes
<cbx33> heh
<ogra> i even complained about it
<ogra> months ago
<cbx33> any ideas on shortening it
<ogra> i've given up to complain
<nixternal> HedgeMage: have people been uploading recently to your svn server?
<ogra> ok, where on the agenda are we
<ogra> somehow its got all messed up today
<LaserJock> if you want to shorten it have specific agenda items
<cbx33> ogra: at the end
<RichEd> ogra: we can shorten it, but we'll need to change the published times then.
<HedgeMage> nixternal: nope, not since we moved things to the doc server
<ogra> cbx33, did we have Management ?
<cbx33> poop dude I dunno
<cbx33> I'm lost
<RichEd> well management briefly:
<ogra> RichEd, where would these times be ?
<ogra> since will changed the agenda page there are not times anymore
<nixternal> then someone has been creating docs and not against what is in svn
<RichEd> ogra: fridge events & @schedule
<ogra> RichEd, well, i think its good to book the room for 2h ...
<ogra> just keep the meeting shorter
<RichEd> ogra: okay, lets try to create an agend and then stick to it ... I'll do the merge of docs we spoke about
<RichEd> *agenda
<ogra> yeah
<cbx33> sounds good
<ogra> and lets try to not get sidetracked so much and stay to the agenda
<cbx33> also will make minutes easier
<ogra> it went pretty chaotic today
<cbx33> yup
<RichEd> So getting back to Management briefly ;)
<RichEd> You should all know by now about the education summit planned for May: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UES-Sevilla
<ogra> right
<cbx33> thought I'd love to minute the ogra ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<ogra> heh
<RichEd> And also not sure if you have all seen: http://www.ubuntulive.com/
<cbx33> nope
<cbx33> so....what am I not reading
<cbx33> i never heard about UES till LaserJock said about it the other day
<RichEd> cbx33: I asked for it to be announced in the meeting while I was away. I'll also post it to the list.
* cbx33 misses stuff
<cbx33> i think I'm just slow
<LaserJock> you are
<LaserJock> :p
<LaserJock> it was on ubuntu-announce
<LaserJock> and probably fridge too
<cbx33> ahh
<cbx33> I'm not on ubuntu-announce
<RichEd> Those are two big events for us in Education ...  2 days each. The summit is purely education. Ubuntu Live is all aspects of Ubuntu, but with a specfic Education stream ... 7 slots.
<cbx33> and i don't check fridge that often
<ogra> cbx33, i announced it in the last two meetings
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> man how did i miss that
* cbx33 kicks himself in the pants
* RichEd helps cbx33 a bit
<LaserJock> RichEd: I didn't know that Ubuntu Live will have Education stuff
<LaserJock> I'm a short flight away
<RichEd> I've been getting some submissions for papers / presentations at both events. I'll add these to the UES page, and also create a UbuntuLiveEducation page.
<ogra> RichEd, do you have any idea if we both are planned to be there ?
<RichEd> Some really good topics, which will be good case study material.
<RichEd> ogra: silbs & I are talking about having an Edubuntu LTSP iCafe for the delegates, with a tutorial session on how to build one hands on. So i think you will be useful to have there.
<ogra> cool
<ogra> i'lltry to coordinate with sbalneav and jammcq, we can probably have an ltsp hackfest before or after, so i need to travel less
<ogra> *g*
<ogra> planning my moves around the world to suck least ....
<ogra> ;)
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> poor ogra
<LaserJock> Paris took me a month to recover from :-)
<cbx33> indeed
<ogra> LaserJock, poor RichEd .... i still have edubuntu development as excuse
<ogra> :)
<ogra> anyway, any other business ?
* RichEd is off to Nigeria at the end of this week ... with an armed UN escort as it is a Parliamentary Conference with 24 countries.
<ogra> phew
<ogra> armed
<RichEd> i'm done ...
<cbx33> wow
<RichEd> ogra ... do you want to bang the gong ...
<RichEd> going once ....
<ogra> going twice
<ogra> adjourned !!!
<ogra> thanks all
<cbx33> phew
* RichEd waves
<cbx33> ogra: pm
<RichEd> thanks all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Mar 19:00 UTC: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 21 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-03-15
<unstable> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 15 Mar 15:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 06:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 11:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 11:00: Kernel Team | 21 Mar 08:00: Edubuntu
<dmang> beep
<dmang> ping?
<dmang> pong!
<dmang> zooooooom!
<Klaidas[anapnea] > @schedule Vilnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 15 Mar 21:00: Audio Team | 15 Mar 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 12:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 17:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 17:00: Kernel Team | 21 Mar 14:00: Edubuntu
<tsmithe> wow that was surprisingly subconscious
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Audio Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 21 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Audio Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Mar 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 18:00 UTC: Community Council
* tsmithe waits for 8 minutes watching scrubs
<tsmithe> could someone ping me when the meeting starts; i'm going through my whore of an inbox
<crimsun> tsmithe: ping
<tsmithe> ho!
<crimsun> all right, let's get started
<TheMuso> Is it just us three?
<tsmithe> looks like it... does it really matter?
<crimsun> Bug triaging best practices (crimsun)
<bdmurray> me too!
<TheMuso> oh right
<crimsun> first, to many people there's some confusion regarding alsa
<TheMuso> Re bugs, I have seen what bdmurray, crimsun, and Andrew Ash have been doing in responding to bugs.
* tsmithe too
<crimsun> here we'll lay out guidelines to make triaging a bit less painful
<tsmithe> (*smiles*)
<crimsun> symptoms such as "sound not working", "sound muted", and anything else falling under "not being able to hear sound under Ubuntu but being able to under $another_os" should be triaged against linux-source-2.6.x, where x is the kernel version for that Ubuntu release
<tsmithe> yep
<crimsun> i.e., use linux-source-2.6.x instead of alsa-driver, generally, because we don't actively patch the alsa-source binary package (against which alsa-driver, which is in universe, is responsible), whereas we do take care of the kernel
<bdmurray> Is ubuntu-audio a subscriber to thse bugs?
* tsmithe restrains from answering in angst of getting it wrong
<crimsun> u-audio subscribes to alsa-driver but not the former, because bugs against linux-source-2.6.x aren't necessarily audio bugs
<bdmurray> right, so would it be appropriate to manually subscribe them?
<crimsun> yes, that is perfectly acceptable
<crimsun> alternately, you can, as you've been doing, triage the bug against alsa-driver, and we'll reassign as appropriate
<crimsun> this brings up another subtle point
<crimsun> there is one corner case (in terms of actual kernel sound drivers) in which one should triage bugs against alsa-driver instead of linux-source-2.6.x, and that is if alsa-source provides the actual driver instead of linux-source
<tsmithe> that's understandable
<tsmithe> how do we know that that is the case?
<crimsun> in previous Ubuntu releases, this was constrained to drivers like the EchoAudio ones
<tsmithe> (just learn?)
<TheMuso> crimsun: I guess to check that we need to check what package a driver belongs to?
<crimsun> TheMuso: because it's a corner case, modinfo on a default Ubuntu install will help there
<TheMuso> crimsun: I still don't quite understand.
<crimsun> for instance, if we can see from the bug report that the reporter is using snd-foo, then we can run ``modinfo snd-foo''
<crimsun> if nothing is returned, then instead of using linux-source-2.6.x as the triaged package, we can use alsa-driver
<TheMuso> crimsun: Right.
<tsmithe> ah clever
<crimsun> ok, that covers the kernel side ["sound inaudible"] 
<crimsun> now, the userspace portion is more mundane
<crimsun> generally speaking these bugs are pretty easy to classify: anything dealing with "volume not being restored properly on (reboot)" or the like falls under alsa-utils
<crimsun> anything dealing with "resampling sounds very bad" falls under alsa-lib
<tsmithe> right
<crimsun> now, take for example, bugs that mention volume problems like "regression from Ubuntu X: volume too low" would be linux-source-2.6.x issues, not alsa-utils
<tsmithe> uhuh... why so?
<tsmithe> does alsa-utils not regress?
<TheMuso> Alsa-utils would generally know about the mixer values already I'm guessing.
<TheMuso> So it can usually set them.
<crimsun> right, Luke's got the idea
<tsmithe> hmm ok
<crimsun> there are two classes of drivers that will have these types of regressions, the first far more common than the second
<crimsun> HDA- and AC97-based ones, respectively
<TheMuso> crimsun: Does hda stand for anything?
<tsmithe> high-definition audio
<tsmithe> :S
<crimsun> high definition audio, interestingly enough
<TheMuso> right
<crimsun> HDA regressions and fixes can be expected for quite some time; we're only beginning to get better support for these newest models
<TheMuso> Lovely
<crimsun> and as you can tell just by browsing the linux-source-2.6.20 and alsa-driver bugs, most of the audio issues have to do with HDA-based chips
<tsmithe> TheMuso, remember, cynicism is not a good path
<crimsun> the HDA ones are easier to triage, because we can narrow them to a specific file
<TheMuso> tsmithe: Cynicism was furthest from my mind.
<tsmithe> :)
<crimsun> the file that is the culprit is based on the HDA codec used, which one can get on an Ubuntu install from ``tail -2 /proc/asound/oss/sndstat''
<tsmithe> ok
<crimsun> [the proper location for HDA is /proc/asound/card0/codec*, but it's different for AC97-based ones, which use /proc/asound/cardX/*codec*/* . Because /proc/asound/oss/sndstat abstracts that difference, and because we load snd-pcm-oss by default in Ubuntu, we use /proc/asound/oss/sndstat] 
<TheMuso> Makes sense.
<crimsun> one of the more important pages that we use is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingSoundProblems
<crimsun> this generally gathers enough info for us to triage correctly
<TheMuso> I've seen that be requested many a time.
<tsmithe> yeah
<tsmithe> and people always do it wrong...
<TheMuso> tsmithe: ?
<crimsun> yeah, some people will dump it all into one comment inline, which can be painful
<tsmithe> what he said ^^
<crimsun> separate attachments are good
<TheMuso> Oh right.
<TheMuso> I thought tsmithe meant something different.
<tsmithe> no :)
<crimsun> a few of us in #alsa are working on a script to grab similar info, http://bulletproof.servebeer.com/alsa/scripts/alsa-info.sh
<crimsun> this script will find its way into the upstream project [#upstream/Freenode] , which should help us
<crimsun> the long-term intent (jumping ahead momentarily) is to tie this functionality into the hwdb-client
<TheMuso> Right.
<tsmithe> that would be very nice :)
<crimsun> therefore making it transparent to the user.
<crimsun> ok, are there any questions on triaging practices, then?
<TheMuso> Not from me, everything makes sense.
<tsmithe> yea
<aouaou> how about the professional audio devices?
<crimsun> aouaou: with respect to triaging, can you be more specific?
<aouaou> is something going to change in those devices? (sorry i am not an expert just audio professional)
<crimsun> aouaou: the scope of your question is fairly broad
<aouaou> yes u are probably right.. i should probably let you carry on
<crimsun> aouaou: if alsa already supports said pro audio device, then we can work to get it into linux-source-2.6.x if it's not already there
<aouaou> ok
<crimsun> aouaou: if there are issues other than getting support, like actually adding a driver, that's better addressed upstream [to alsa-devel@ ] 
<aouaou> from end-user's scope i think there are some problems with the audio latency
<tsmithe> if that's supposed to be @ sourceforge, then they really need to get that subscribers only
<aouaou> is there anything that can change that?
<_MMA_> aouaou: Latency where?
<crimsun> aouaou: on feisty, there're two workarounds of sorts: -lowlatency kernel and the PAM realtime access. Both of these are documented.
<aouaou> ok thank you very much. i will check them out
<crimsun> aouaou: check in #ubuntustudio
<_MMA_> crimsun: There is also a script that addresses some PCI latency issues but thats another topic.
<_MMA_> las mentioned it.
<crimsun> _MMA_: right, remind me when we get to "Looking ahead to Feisty+1"
<TheMuso> I would think that would only be a problem if your hardware was causing latency issues.
<_MMA_> k
<crimsun> ok, moving on
* TheMuso notes that he has his cards all set on a good IRQ.
<crimsun> Items remaining for the Feisty release (crimsun)
<crimsun> the first issue we have is to make sure we don't regress from Dapper and Edgy for linux-source-2.6.20
<crimsun> one area in which I know there are regressions is in the AC97-based quirks
<tsmithe> well, my diff for ac97 and intel showed only one regression
<tsmithe> but then, there are - i'm sure - unapplied patches from kernel-team@
<tsmithe> i'm going to go through and put them all (together?) this weekend some time
<crimsun> ok, great
<crimsun> for the benefit of others, these AC97-based quirks tend to show up as headphone quirks
<TheMuso> Right.
<crimsun> particularly with multimedia hotkeys, like VolUp/VolDown/Mute
<crimsun> on many of these types of laptops, you often have to bind the 'Headphone' and 'Master' elements together so that the hotkeys work properly
<TheMuso> oh fun
<tsmithe> right - how does this happen? is there a doc somewhere?
<crimsun> Brian and I started working through some of these types of bug reports, tagging them "jack sense" on Launchpad
<crimsun> (which is a bit more broad than just that issue, but it narrows things down a bit)
<tsmithe> excellent
<crimsun> we should actually make those distinct, now that I think about it
<crimsun> let's use the "headphone quirk" tag for that
<tsmithe> right - this ominously suggests that there are other jack quirks
<crimsun> tsmithe: the best documentation would be the source, (un)fortunately
<tsmithe> i'm fine with that - any particular areas?
<crimsun> http://hg.alsa-project.org/alsa-kernel/file/f8284261b2be/Documentation/
<crimsun> generally speaking, ALSA-Configuration.txt is the relevant file
<tsmithe> thanks
<crimsun> note that f8284261b2be, the changeset hash, is continually updated, so to get the latest using the Web, you'll want to follow tip
<tsmithe> "tip"? is that like "head" or "trunk"?
<crimsun> (or you can just hg clone alsa-kernel, see instructions on http://www.alsa-project.org/download.php)
<tsmithe> i think i must just do that :)
<crimsun> yes, tip is the Mercurial equivalent of head/trunk
<tsmithe> excellent. makes me wonder why there need be so many names
<crimsun> there are so many systems :)
<tsmithe> that's not an excuse  ;)
<crimsun> ok, speaking of regressions, there's a rather serious one in bug 88332
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 88332 in linux-source-2.6.20 "low volume through headphones on HP Pavilion ZT3000 (ICH4) [edgy regression] " [Medium,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88332
<tsmithe> that wouldn't happen to be a "Fujitsu Lifebook C1211D", would it?
<crimsun> this one's subtle and may require considerable git bisecting
<TheMuso> heh. I got 403 when attempting to check out alsa-driver from hg.
<crimsun> TheMuso: make sure you use hg.alsa-project instead of hg-mirror.alsa-project
<TheMuso> crimsun: right
<TheMuso> yep that works
<crimsun> with James's issue, we need to cover three areas, core, ac97, and intel8x0
<tsmithe> blimey
<crimsun> off the top of my head, I can't see why it would have regressed. It doesn't seem to be a power management issue, and there aren't many changes on top of that to those three areas
<tsmithe> ok - so how would you go about finding out?
<crimsun> via the initial steps, we've established that it's an actual kernel<->hardware issue, and since edgy works where feisty doesn't, we'll need to look specifically at sound/{core/,pci/ac97/,pci/intel8x0.c} differences in the git trees
<tsmithe> that's an awfully broad file set
<crimsun> thankfully it's smaller than it seems
<tsmithe> ah ok
<crimsun> in feisty, the header files were shuffled, so we can ignore those changes in sound/pci/ac97/
<tsmithe> mmhmm
<crimsun> I'll spend some time this evening looking at it, and we'll need to ask James to test 2.6.20-11.18
<tsmithe> who are "we"?
<crimsun> we -> ubuntu-audio
<crimsun> I'll take care of that part
<tsmithe> right :)
<crimsun> ok, second issue is to keep up with the seemingly endless flood of quirks
<crimsun> I try - and I admit I used to be much better about this - to peek into #ubuntu periodically to help with audio issues
<tsmithe> yea
<tsmithe> i try and catch them as well
<crimsun> quite a bit of the quirks gathered in previous Ubuntu releases were from #ubuntu and #alsa
<tsmithe> makes triaging much easier, when the reporter is alive
<TheMuso> Forgive me if I decide not to go in there again. That channel moves way too quickly for me to follow
<crimsun> TheMuso: sure, it's a bear
<tsmithe> well, to be honest, i try and catch them outside of there
<crimsun> there are many sources besides those two IRC channels in which to get quirks
<crimsun> I've neglected crawling through other distributions' bug databases
<crimsun> (a glaring error, really)
<tsmithe> grgh
<_MMA_> Maybe something could be done through the Ubuntu Forums. I know some feedback will come from Ubuntu Studio forums once they open.
<tsmithe> well, there has been discussion on -devel-discuss about (or maybe launchpad-users) about that kind of thing
<crimsun> _MMA_: I know quite a few sound issues are reported on the forums, but we need a mechanism for transferring those reports into Launchpad
<_MMA_> Didnt tsmithe have that covered somewhat with "Forum Ambassadors"?
<_MMA_> Thats another subject though.
<tsmithe> what was suggested was rather linking of old bugs to new posts. i think the f-a should cover vice versa
<_MMA_> Both seem good.
<crimsun> ok, that seems reasonable
<crimsun> anything else that seems critical for Feisty?
<tsmithe> not that i am aware of, certainly
<TheMuso> Not that I am aware of.
<crimsun> Cory, anything from ubuntustudio's perspective?
<_MMA_> I want to ask about freebob and firewire but they might not directly relate to whet the topic here is.
<_MMA_> I know we're going to get support questions for firewire devices.
<_MMA_> So Im guessing that if Freebob supports it the divice is good.
<crimsun> right, and likely freebob + jack alsa-plugin will be the way to go
<_MMA_> Ok.
<TheMuso> Does freebob support alsa in any way?
<_MMA_> So we will have to place an importance on the Freebob project.
<tsmithe> would it not have to?
<crimsun> currently this means that the user has to download and recompile alsa-plugins (enable the jack alsa-plugin, which is currently disabled)
<crimsun> TheMuso: not directly last I looked
<tsmithe> so it's directly a jack-only thing?
<_MMA_> And why is it disabled?
<tsmithe> i was just in the middle of typing "hmm - what's the rationale for that" :)
<crimsun> _MMA_: promotion of alsa-plugins to main for the pulseaudio plugin (for Edubuntu)
<crimsun> (jack-audio-connection-kit is in universe, which would cause the build to fail)
<TheMuso> ah yes
<tsmithe> ahh
<_MMA_> I see.
<TheMuso> If I understand correctly, this plugin makes alsa apps appear as jack apps right?
<TheMuso> If so, I've tried to use it before, with poor results.
<crimsun> it routes native alsa apps to jack
<_MMA_> So whats the way around this for a user?  Recompile alsa-plugins?
<crimsun> _MMA_: yes, as noted above
<TheMuso> And not all alsa apps allow you to easily change which device they use, especially custom asoundrc setups.
<TheMuso> So I guess we ort to move to feisty+1.
<tsmithe> yes
<tsmithe> i'm trying to find the agenda page... where was it again?
<_MMA_> Having a pre-built package for Ubuntu Studio users might have to happen somehow.
<crimsun> tsmithe: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAudio/Meetings
<tsmithe> thank you
<crimsun> _MMA_: we can discuss this post-meeting/offband in us-devel
<_MMA_> Ok.
<crimsun> ok, moving on to Looking ahead to Feisty+1
<crimsun> the first issue here is integrating the DebuggingSoundProblems request info and the alsa-info.sh script into hwdb-client
<tsmithe> yup
<tsmithe> what can we do to help with this process?
<crimsun> well, the first step is to write up a specification so it can be considered for the next development summit in Sevilla
<TheMuso> Who will be there to champion it?
<crimsun> one of you, hopefully :)
<tsmithe> hmm
<crimsun> I'm travelling during that month, so I won't be able to attend, unfortunately
<_MMA_> joejaxx and I have applied for sponsorship.
<tsmithe> hmm
* TheMuso never saw the call for it.
<TheMuso> applying for sponsorship.
<_MMA_> Whould be great if tsmight or TheMuso could be there.
* tsmithe neither
<tsmithe> _MMA_, *ahem*
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Sevilla/Attendees
* tsmithe ganders over
<_MMA_> Jane said they will look over that list.
<TheMuso> Nothing about sponsorship there.
<crimsun> integrating a script into hwdb-client shouldn't be difficult. Keep in mind we need to deal with at least three classes of devices: ISA, PCI, USB
<TheMuso> yeah
<tsmithe> isa... awh
<crimsun> pci and usb are fairly straightforward (with the latter substituting lsusb -vv in place of lspci -vvn)
<crimsun> isa's a bit more hairy, so I'll need to ask Scott and others about that
<tsmithe> do people actually want those cards supported?
<crimsun> yes
<TheMuso> Well some mobos have MIDI controllers that are ISA.
<crimsun> (and Mark would probably argue yes, too)
<TheMuso> Mine included.
<_MMA_> crimsun: Ill also get the specific script from las to see if its useful or it might be the same one. :)
<crimsun> _MMA_: different issue, but we'll get to it in a second
<crimsun> so, start throwing around ideas for hwdb-client integration, and hopefully by our next meeting we have a better idea of how things should piece together
<tsmithe> i guess i'll need to get these sources then
<tsmithe> is an apt-get source enough, or is there somewhere else i should be looking?
<crimsun> https://launchpad.net/products/hwdb-client
<tsmithe> excellent
<tsmithe> (i'm pretty sure i should be looking by myself)
<crimsun> ok, next issue for Feisty+1 is the pro audio bent
<crimsun> UbuntuStudio is going to drive a different set of requirements focused on much lower latency, jack integration, and so on
<crimsun> ALSA itself needs to be prepared for that
<tsmithe> what are the other requirements?
<crimsun> _MMA_: is there movement on realtime?
<tsmithe> (those that are different to the UbuntuStudio ones?)
<TheMuso> crimsun: What needs doing alsa wise?
<crimsun> TheMuso: the most invasive change would be a "realtime"ish kernel
<TheMuso> right
<crimsun> I have not inspected those additional changes; I know some of them are in .20
<crimsun> again, this would need a specification on Launchpad, but more importantly, it's going to require convincing BenC
<TheMuso> As far as I know, the realtime patches are for ever changing.
<TheMuso> From release to release./
<crimsun> it's going to be a hard sell, honestly, because it's so invasive and because it changes
<crimsun> right
<TheMuso> crimsun: I don't believe we will get it in.
<_MMA_> Sorry. Kids. :)
<TheMuso> When I ran Gentoo, the rt kernel did just totally crap out on me when I least expected it at times.
<_MMA_> The most we can hope for are the things Ben has enabled.
<crimsun> this is a place where UbuntuStudio can drive, since US will likely be the sole use case
<TheMuso> -lowlatency seems to work fine here, although I haven't tested it with a lot of apps at once.
<tsmithe> well, surely he's the guy that knows best?
<_MMA_> Like has been said, things like Ingos patches are simple too invasive.
<TheMuso> I believe RT will be integrated in the mainline kernel over time.
<TheMuso> And thereby stabalised.
<crimsun> I'm happy to defer it even further (or strike it completely)
<TheMuso> Me too.
<_MMA_> Ben has also mentioned that Ingo's patches are slowly making it into mainline.
<_MMA_> :)
<crimsun> right, piece-wise, as verifiable through testing
<TheMuso> Yep.
<TheMuso> SO eventually everybody will gain.
<tsmithe> that would certainly be the best approach
<_MMA_> Also some things are changing that make the patched unneeded.
<TheMuso> I'm willing to wait for that, as long as we keep -lowlatency around.
<tsmithe> i'm not for going for everything to please some people
<_MMA_> Ben mentioned a variable timer.
<pochu> hey thekorn!
<crimsun> _MMA_: likely to be default in Feisty+1, since it has already been merged
<thekorn> hi pochu !
<crimsun> unless I misparsed linux-kernel@ and LWN
<_MMA_> crimsun: Nice. Ill chat with you later about that.
<_MMA_> :)
<crimsun> (which is entirely possible, since I've been running around)
<TheMuso> So what else is there/
<crimsun> for Feisty+1, we should work on collaping deltas
<TheMuso> Where does pulseaudio stand? As far as I can see, its not enabled in feisty.
<TheMuso> crimsun: ?
<crimsun> pulseaudio's not default [yet]  in gnome
<TheMuso> Right.
<_MMA_> I was wondering about PS as well.
<_MMA_> gah
<tsmithe> will it be?
<_MMA_> *PA
<crimsun> it's seeded for Edubuntu, and we can install it, but whether it becomes the default is something that would be a good discussion topic at UDS/Sevilla
<crimsun> http://live.gnome.org/PulseAudio
<_MMA_> I would love to be in on the spec but theres no way I can impliment it. :)
<crimsun> _MMA_: likely there will be little to implement if upstream (gnome) pulls it in
<_MMA_> True.
<crimsun> ok, back to collapsing deltas. We need to ensure our changes get merged back to upstream [ALSA@] 
<TheMuso> One thing I would like to have a look at for feisty+1, is the state of portaudio 19.
<TheMuso> Yes.
<TheMuso> Mainly to work out how stable it is.
<TheMuso> I know I'm kinda scratching my own itch here, but anyway.
<crimsun> I have been woefully slack about pushing changes back, and that will change.
<_MMA_> crimsun: Kinda related. When will you be leaving us?
<crimsun> As for portaudio19, I know it's the backend for feisty's Audacity. Does anyone have experience with its stability?
<tsmithe> wired is also using portaudio19
<ogra> for usage in a default ginem you will need a bunch of patches from the old esd package
<ogra> *gnome
<ogra> i worked with the pulse package nearly the whole release for ltsp
<ogra> its great there, but not ready for gnome as is
<tsmithe> (when it gets in)
<TheMuso> crimsun: Not really. I am investigating it for espeak.
<ogra> imho gnome should be fixed to not require a sound daemon
<ogra> afaik there is even a patch to switch everyting to gstreamer
<ogra> (for events etc)
<tsmithe> ogra, but then there's the issue with initialising that. i'd prefer a simple library to do that
<crimsun> _MMA_: (I'm gradually cutting back, but I'm unlikely to disappear completely simply due to the sheer enormity of audio issues)
<ogra> tsmithe, but gstreamer is used everywhere else ...
<ogra> its silly to dupicate backends
<_MMA_> crimsun: So we need to make sure you have a good team in place with a good system to take more pressure of you.
<ogra> *duplicate
<tsmithe> yes -  but on lower end systems; at login?
<_MMA_> *off
<crimsun> _MMA_: (what we're doing here)
<_MMA_> ;)
<crimsun> anyhow, we're perilously close to the devteam meeting, so let's go ahead and close off
<tsmithe> ah yes ok
<tsmithe> next meeting?
<TheMuso> crimsun: Quickly, do we want some wiki pages?
<crimsun> TheMuso: yes, that would be useful
<tsmithe> i think we should start chucking ideas together for hwdb-client
<tsmithe> and minutes?
<ogra> tsmithe, well, a cut down gstreamer-minimal ? i'd really not just replace one sounddaemon with another ... but hey i'm not a gnome dev who decides such things :)
<tsmithe> ogra, well - i'm with you on that :)
<TheMuso> crimsun: As for next meeting, well hows every couple of weeks to make sure we're on target with bugs?
<ogra> i just worked with pulse the last months and wanted to throw in my 2cent
<tsmithe> great
<TheMuso> I'm happy to rotate times to suit other people, given enough notice.
<crimsun> if same time on the 29th works, let's shoot for it
<TheMuso> Fine by me
<tsmithe> not for me
<tsmithe> i'm going away to germany the day before, unfortunately
<crimsun> ok, how does the 27th look?
<crimsun> at possibly 1800?
<TheMuso> Fine once again.
<tsmithe> 27 is good
<TheMuso> The notice is good for me to make it
<tsmithe> if i find i have other things planned, i'll email you both
<crimsun> ok, let's set it for March 27th 1800 UTC
<crimsun> I'll work on these minutes this evening
<crimsun> thanks, everyone
<TheMuso> crimsun: You sure?
* tsmithe was gonna suggest doing it
<crimsun> oh, if someone else wants to, feel free :)
<tsmithe> i'm fine with someone else doing it, tough :P
<TheMuso> tsmithe: If you're happy to do so.
<tsmithe> *though
<tsmithe> ok - i will
<tsmithe> where shall i email
<tsmithe> ?
<tsmithe> (it'll help get things straight in my mind)
<crimsun> thanks, tsmithe. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAudio/Meetings/Minutes  (which you'll have to create)
<tsmithe> ok - that's great
<tsmithe> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 18:00: Community Council
<tsmithe> looks like ubuntu dev is soon
<tsmithe> nothing more?
<crimsun> I recommend following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meetings/Minutes as a template
<TheMuso> nope
<crimsun> nope, we're all up :) Thanks again!
<tsmithe> excellent
<TheMuso> np see you guys in other channels
<tsmithe> ok everyone - have fun!
<tsmithe> pah - too late
<mdz> good evening, folks
<tsmithe> evening
<dholbach> hiya
<Keybuk> good evening
<mdz> everyone gathering for the dev meeting?
<BenC> hey
<gouki> Hi
<rtg> yo
<mdz> cjwatson: ping
<tsmithe> crimsun, where should i email about the minutes?
<asac> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Audio Team | 15 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Mar 10:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 18:00: Community Council
<seb128> evening
<asac> hi all
<mdz> hello asac
<fabbione> evening
<asac> still audio?
* fabbione needs to run 2 minutes
<ajmitch> audio meeting just finished
<mvo> hello
<Keybuk> fabbione: for 2 minutes or in 2 minutes?
<fabbione> for 2 minutes
<Keybuk> :)
<sladen> so that /was/ the audio meeting
<asac> :)
<mdz> Keybuk: everyone here on your side?
<tsmithe> sladen, yes - it was :)
<Keybuk> mdz: nowhere near yet
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 18:00 UTC: Community Council
<pitti> hi
<Keybuk> mdz: Riddell may not make it, he was feeling unwell earlier
<mdz> just left a message for colin
* kylem curses daylight savings.
<Keybuk> colin may have died, since he was up all last night
<mdz> he wasn't dead yet a couple of hours ago
<BenC> I haven't heard from him in 2 hours
<Keybuk> that's about the last time I heard from him too :p
<iwj> Colin tells me he'll be along very shortly.
<cjwatson> pong
<Keybuk> cjwatson: morning
<mdz> bdmurray,tkamppeter: ping
<pitti> yay for Colin being alive :)
* dholbach hugs cjwatson
<bdmurray> here
<mdz> cjwatson: heard from till?
<mdz> everyone else seems to be accounted for
<Keybuk> mdz: I haven't counted Ken or Tollef yet
<mdz> doko is on holiday this week
<mdz> Keybuk: colin's team, I mean
<cjwatson> haven't heard from till aside from the update he sent
<mdz> let's get started
<mdz> any adjustments to the agenda?
<bdmurray> I made one
* Keybuk learns two new german swear words
<mdz> I'd like to add an explicit beta bug review
<bdmurray> Added it to the wiki page
<kwwii> sorry all
<mdz> ok
<mdz> (mvo) should we move the command-not-found package to main? or let it mature for one cycle in universe?
<Keybuk> Tollef has a broken net connection
<mdz> mvo: I, er, thought it was already there.  I use zsh and so I don't notice if it's installed or not ;-)
<mdz> mvo: short answer: yes, we should
<pitti> I think we shuold only move it to main once we actually want to ship it in -desktop
<mdz> mvo: in fact iirc sabdfl wanted it installed by default
<pitti> otherwise it doesn't make much sense
<mdz> agreed
<mvo> mdz: fine with me,  I will add it to the desktop-seed as recommend
<mvo> if none objects
<mdz> it's equally useful on servers
<pitti> mvo: has this exit status bug been fixed?
<mdz> but we don't have a proper server metapackage yet, eh?
<pitti> mdz: is there something like standard-recommends?
<cjwatson> the bug I filed about it has been closed, at least ...
<mdz> pitti: that would be a good classification for it
<cjwatson> pitti: should work fine in the normal way if you use that seed syntax
<mvo> pitti: yes and it will only run in non-posix and interactive shell mode
<mdz> standard-recommends would be the place for it
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, cool
<pitti> mvo: heh, would indeed be nasty in shell scripts :)
<fabbione> mdz: ubuntu-minimal basically
<mdz> at least one person will write an excited blog entry about that feature ;-)
<mdz> fabbione: standard, I think
<mvo> :)
<pitti> 'hey, I lost my command, and that thing found it'
* dholbach hugs mvo
<fabbione> ehheeh
<cjwatson> fabbione: ... I'm not sure I want to mess with Recommends in debootstrap; not offhand sure what that would do
<cjwatson> I agree with mdz, standard
<fabbione> cjwatson: my bad.. -standard
<mdz> mvo: ok, so you'll make the necessary changes?
<mvo> yes
<mdz> sounds good
<mdz> (pitti) More interested people for doing source NEW?
<mvo> ACTION-ITEM: mvo to seed command-not-found and update the database in it
<mdz> pitti: any motivational words to add? :-)
<pitti> well, so far I think seb128 does a few source NEWs, but other than that the queue doesn't really shrink except for the things I review
<pitti> mdz: yes
<iwj> I'd be quite happy to volunteer, if the contributors can stand my pickiness.
<pitti> LET'S GET MORE SHINY CRACK INTO UBUNTU!
<ogra> yay
<kylem> pitti, i'd be interested in source NEW powah.
<ogra> iwj, isnt pickiness mandatory for that job ?
<pitti> right, it takes a fair while
<mdz> iwj: all of the admins should be following the same guidelines, preferably codified
<fabbione> iwj: paranoia is mandatory for NEW
<iwj> ogra: Sure, but look at the effect on the poor sods whose MIRs I've occasionally touched ...
<pitti> reviewing all the files for redistributability, reviewing copyrights, etc.; reviewing packging, too
<mdz> I think there is at least one written document
* Mithrandir pongs
<iwj> written document> Excellent, that's what I like to hear.
<pitti> iwj: the MIR template is wonderful now
<pitti> at least for me, the policy came to me via mouth propaganda
<pitti> I'll look for a document
<mdz> there's one which comes from debian ftpmaster iirc
<cjwatson> it should be linked from ArchiveAdministration
<pitti> ah, reject FAQ or so
<mdz> which is more like a checklist
<cjwatson> (may not be right now)
<cjwatson> http://ftp-master.debian.org/REJECT-FAQ.html
<ogra> iwj, yes, and even if i will curse you loud and often for all the MIRs you will reject from mine, i love the fact that software entering main will be very well reviwed ... it makes me sleep better :) so apology in advance for the cursing and thanks as well ;)
<iwj> pitti: I'd be happy to help codify any random piles of verbiage and woolliness you come across.
<cjwatson> I'll make sure it's linked
<mdz> pitti: is queue/new visible without archive admin privileges?  that would make it easier to open up review
<pitti> mdz: not really
<mdz> pitti: I think that would be a good idea
<pitti> but it's trivial to copy the packages somewhere
<mdz> that way, a large group of reviewers could look at the packages and provide feedback
<pitti> right
<mdz> perhaps many could be rejected without archive admins having to review yet
<pitti> I could build an sftp:// deb archive from chinstrap
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: could you extend your unapproved queue mirrorer to do NEW as well?
<mdz> pitti: why not http?
<cjwatson> tollef already has code for this, might as well reuse it
<pitti> mdz: I'm reluctant to put it on a public place
<mdz> pitti: these are all signed packages from registered developers
<pitti> mdz: since if the stuff is really not redistributable, this might bite us
* pitti is just paranoid
<cjwatson> https:// from chinstrap would be fine
<mdz> pitti: things won't stay there permanently, and it's trivial to take things down if there's a problem
<pitti> ok, fine for me
<iwj> If it's public you'll start getting people referring others to packages in the NEW queue.
<cjwatson> we have other stuff there that's passworded
<mdz> it doesn't need to be passworded, imo
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: no, I would preferably not do that.  It might not be redistributable?
<cjwatson> it can be, or can be not, I don't mind
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: are you reading the discussion? :-)
<pitti> passworded from chinstrap sounds good so far
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: yes, just doing so now.
<Mithrandir> I can mirror it to chinstrap just fine.
<Mithrandir> ideally I'd like an ubuntu-archive account there too, but I guess that's doable.
<mdz> I think we only need to worry about w4r3z being redistributed, not developer mistakes
<mdz> it's a temporary holding area
<pitti> hm, right, any ubuntu-dev could in theory put w4r3z into an existing package as well
<mdz> so long as it comes from someone we know, we can publish it temporarily.  if something non-redistributable ends up there, the worst that could happen is that someone points it out and we reject the package -- which is exactly what we're hoping for! :-)
<mdz> so fewer barriers -> more review -> less archive admin work
<Mithrandir> mdz: point.  So you're fine with making it public?
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes
<Mithrandir> ok, I'll set that up.
<mdz> in the words of the sab, "I'll take the bullets"
<pitti> grat
<pitti> Mithrandir: you can use your existing code for the unapproved queue archive?
<mdz> pitti: you'll talk with iwj about policy, and get something written?
<Keybuk> mdz does his neo trick ...
<Mithrandir> pitti: it probably needs a small hammer applied to it, but yes, mostly the same code.
<pitti> mdz: yes
<cjwatson> anything that involves not having to be lp_archive@drescher to do code review is good in my book
<iwj> Since there are lots of volunteers perhaps the existing admins should conduct some kind of interview/appointment?
<BenC> "Words are like bullets, they pass right through me"
<mdz> ACTION: pitti and other archive admins, iwj to codify guidelines for acceptance of new packages
<cjwatson> full lp_archive privileges are (a) big and scary and (b) lots of work
<mdz> (heno) I'd like to confirm that people generally agree with the 'just in time' ISO testing plan. The aim is to reduce the number of tests each distro person does, though we have to be ready to help out when there are gaps (as always). I'll also do my best to get some baseline test coverage from the community.
<cjwatson> so having people come up via NEW review sounds sensible
<mdz> heno: I like it
<heno> ok, cool
<mdz> I gave more detailed feedback on the list
<iwj> This plan is what has been discussed in the emails so far, right ?  Is it currently written down in a coherent all-edits-included form ?
<mdz> heno: it's only getting better so far
<heno> iwj: it's only written in my post to -distro
<mdz> iwj: I think this is heno soliciting further feedback before doing that :-)
<iwj> mdz: Right :-).
<heno> I'm learning as I go :)
* ogra thinks heno is doing very well ...
<mdz> are folks comfortable with the workload balance?
<cjwatson> heno: I've started polishing up your descriptions of the various install methods, btw
* ogra feels the improvements :)
<heno> cjwatson: great, thanks
<mdz> we need a lot of hands to cover the testing requirements, but everyone should be able to continue fixing bugs without it interfering
<heno> please just email me with individual workload or other feedback
<mdz> the process should be mostly non-interactive
<Riddell> dfgt#
<mdz> download ISOs in the background, start a test and let it run in the background
<ogra> Riddell, really ?
<Riddell> heno: do the test plans include edg
<heno> cr3 is doing some very interesting work with automating iso testing btw
<Riddell> heno: edgy to feisty upgrades?
<mdz> everyone has at least VMWare, and preferably one machine where they can do install testing without it blocking your work
* seb128 should install vmware ;)
* ogra too
* asac too
<heno> Riddell: I've not looked enough at that, they should
<pitti> seb128: it's really great
* dholbach uses other machines - has no vmware either
<pitti> seb128, ogra, asac: module will fail to compile on 2.6.20; talk to me, I have a patch for that
* mvo uses it a lot for interactive upgrade tests - very useful
<seb128> and I've no machine where I can easily take over the disk
<mdz> someone needs to make a patch for vmware-config.pl which uses the pre-built modules from l-r-m
<BenC> you can download ws6 beta's with temp license
<Keybuk> I only have vmware, and find I can manage quite a few tests
<BenC> and test paravirt+vmi too
<heno> vmware has a bad accessibility bug though :(
<seb128> pitti: ok
<mdz> with a fast machine, it's easy to run multiple tests in parallel in vmware
<Keybuk> mdz: it can do that?  I just let it build each time
<heno> you can't escape out of a session without Ctrl+Alt
* pitti bought an extra 2 GB of RAM for that; you'll need lots
<cjwatson> heno: I thought you could tweak that in the .vmx
<mdz> Keybuk: I'm told that they work, but the perl made me choke when trying to get it to try
<mdz> BenC: can someone from the kernel team try a hand at sorting t hat out?
<heno> cjwatson: in virtualbox yes, not seen it in vmware
<cjwatson> http://www.easyvmx.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=4
<heno> (could be I missed it)
<mdz> BenC: you've put the work into getting the modules pre-built and available, we should make use of them to make our lives easier
<BenC> mdz: VMWare is working on it for me
<BenC> mdz: I'll reping them about it
<cjwatson> though that only suggests different combinations of ctrl/alt/shift; having just one of those as the release hotkey would probably be annoying
<mdz> note that a patch is required to get the workstation 5.3 modules to build with the feisty kernel
<mdz> at least, it was for me
<fabbione> mdz: same here
<mdz> the details are easily googled if your compile fails
<Keybuk> ah, my vmware machine is still on edgy :p
<BenC> mdz: Right, our modules are patched to work with 2.6.20, ws6 works out of the box
<pitti> mdz: right, I have a fixed vmmon.tar here, I'll pass it to anyone who wants it
<mdz> heno: ok, happy with the feedback about your test plan?
<cjwatson> iirc the patch is something like "vmware-any-any"
<BenC> cjwatson: that's it
<mdz> it's a one-liner
<heno> mdz: yes, just wanted a basic all clear to proceed as I have been
<mdz> ok, great
<mdz> (bdmurray - sneaking in) initial bug classification - i.e. with audio bugs crimsun said to use alsa-driver if you weren't positive of the package. What about printing bugs? What about X bugs? and others.
<pitti> yes, it's just removing an obsolete #define or so
<heno> so no one is very surprised
<mdz> really?  I thought audio bugs should move from alsa-driver to the kernel
<mdz> given that we don't use the driver in alsa-driver
<mdz> I wish alsa-driver were called something else
<cjwatson> maybe crimsun finds them easier to handle there or something?
<Keybuk> I think the rationale there is that the kernel person who fixes the bugs is subscribed to alsa-driver
<mdz> probably a little easier to work with than tags
<Keybuk> and they're at least related source
<bdmurray> He said they ideally should go to linux-source-x but alsa-driver is subscribed to by ubuntu-audio
<Keybuk> and it prevents them getting tangled in random other hardware bugs
<dholbach> subscribe the ubuntu-printing team for printer bugs - they usually sort it out
<cjwatson> perhaps we could collect names of packages which are used as general holding bins for bugs
<cjwatson> or teams
<bdmurray> cjwatson: yeah, that was my hope
<mdz> bdmurray: there's a web page about teams and bugs
<cjwatson> debian-installer, partman-base are other similar holding packages
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Teams
<mdz> dholbach: thanks, google wasn't finding it
<bdmurray> dholbach: however that isn't a package in lp per se
<bdmurray> so they still show up in bugs w/o a package which seems less useful
<dholbach> bdmurray: i know - but in tricky cases it's best to let a team deal with it, if you really don't know
<mdz> bdmurray: I don't know why there are three tables of teams on that page
<dholbach> right
<mdz> bdmurray: it would probably be a lot clearer if they were collapsed into one
<cjwatson> dholbach: there's often a suitable package to be a starting point
<dholbach> bdmurray: then I'd suggest setting at least the importance of the bug, so it doesn't show up in unconfirmed/undecided any more
<mdz> bdmurray: printing bugs can be in a variety of packages which don't relate directly to printing
<dholbach> cjwatson: right
<mdz> bdmurray: so they should be filed against whatever's appropriate for the software involved, and the printing team subscribed
<cjwatson> I mean very few installer bugs *actually* belong on debian-installer, but it's a perfectly good place to keep them anyway
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 18:00 UTC: Community Council | 21 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<dholbach> like meta-gnome or gnome-desktop, right seb128? :)
* cjwatson takes away Ubugtu's tranquillisers
<cjwatson> if somebody names a wiki page to put this stuff in, I'll happily brain-dump what I know
<bdmurray> cjwatson: right so I was wondering if there were any other perfectly good places for printing and x bugs
<cjwatson> if a few other people do that then that should clear up the guts of the problem
<mdz> cjwatson: Bugs/Teams is where similar content is; perhaps it should be renamed
<seb128> dholbach: gnome-desktop usually yeah :/
<mdz> bdmurray: how about first cleaning up Bugs/Teams, getting Colin's brain dump merged into it, and announcing it on -devel-announce to get further feedback?
<bdmurray> mdz: what about FindRightPackage?
<mdz> that's useful too
<dholbach> mvo: . o O { FindingPackages :-) }
<mdz> isn't that aimed at reporters rather than triagers though?
<bdmurray> true, but is usually reporters who assign bugs to no package
<mdz> I had an idea about bug reporting categories once...I think I even wrote it down
<cjwatson> there's also a small amount of this on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/CommonTasks
<mvo> dholbach: :)
<bdmurray> so maybe I'll take the team update and trim it down for FindRightPackage
<cjwatson> I like having it in Bugs/FindRightPackage
<mdz> I agree, those should be merged
<cjwatson> I want to be able to tell reporters where to file things in the first place too, for the small subset of them who read that ...
<mdz> though neither of the names is suitable for the merged content
<dholbach> I think Bugs/Teams is still valid, as some teams have different triaging guides/policies
<mdz> dholbach: the content on FindRightPackage isn't really about teams though
<dholbach> but let's first just see how big that merged page gets
<mdz> ACTION: bdmurray to merge Bugs/Teams and Bugs/FindRightPackage, solicit feedback from developers
<mdz> bdmurray: naming is up to you ;-)
<bdmurray> mdz: thanks, I guess
<mdz> bdmurray: thanks for bringing it up
<mdz> (mdz) Review of beta blocker status
<mdz> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/7.04-beta
<mdz> minus the bugs which are already fixed, of course
<Keybuk> 404
* mdz mumbles about bug 62495
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 62495 in malone "Milestone bug list doesn't sort properly" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/62495
<Keybuk> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/7.04-beta
<bdmurray> I got a bin file too, if we could have a survey about that later
<mdz> right
<mdz> defeated by my own error in my firefox history
* Keybuk waits for beta
* Keybuk sits down and starts singing about gold
<dholbach> https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/7.04-beta for people using beta
<seb128> I'm wondering why Mithrandir listed the xmodmap GNOME bug there
<Mithrandir> seb128: prompted by James
<seb128> dholbach: launchpad does auto redirection to beta
<dholbach> seb128: it didn't work for me, it just added beta. for me
<seb128> Mithrandir: that doesn't look a beta stopper for me, he's the only one who complained about it
<mdz> seb128: yeah, it just takes 30 seconds sometimes
<dholbach> it oopsed 3 times and told me the page didn't exist
<mdz> dholbach: the url hasn't changed; I just pasted the wrong one
<dholbach> ah
<seb128> dholbach: Keybuk copied the right one after mdz
<mdz> Mithrandir: can you do a greasemonkey script to filter out the fixed bugs from that page? ;-)
<dholbach> lalala, ok
<mdz> is someone looking into bug 86857?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 86857 in brltty "libbrlapi1 file overwrite with brltty (dup-of: 86694)" [High,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86857
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I'm intending to.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 86694 in brltty "edgy->feisty dist-upgrade stops at libbrlapi1 ("trying to overwrite /lib/brltty/libbrlttybba.so")" [High,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86694
<mdz> oh, it's fixed
<cjwatson> xmodmap so does work in feisty, my down key relies on it
<mdz> iwj is looking into bug 75681, but the milestone list doesn't show it
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 75681 in mdadm "boot-time race condition initializing md" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/75681
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: it works for me too, so it's something about the office, I believe.  James has some other bugs nobody are able to reproduce too.
<mdz> cjwatson: your lack-of-a-down-key, you mean
<Keybuk> mdz: shows it for me
<cjwatson> mdz: 75681 is on the list
<mdz> Keybuk: it doesn't show the assignment
<cjwatson> mdz: exactly
<cjwatson> ah
<Keybuk> mdz: so does <g>
<Keybuk> (though why it appears twice in the list, I've no idea)
<cjwatson> because it has multiple bug tasks and apparently somebody can't spell "SELECT DISTINCT"
<mdz> I must be crosseyed from the small fonts
<iwj> (excuse me, my network just dropped out briefly)
<Keybuk> if we're going to discuss launchpad bug list bugs, as well as our own, we'll be here all night <g>
<asac> mdz: ctrl-mousewheel :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: can you review that list and send out a mail to ubuntu-devel with the real list of beta blockers and who's working on them?
<ogra> or ctrl++
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes.
<mdz> asac: that's dangerous; things get big FAST
<mdz> ACTION: Mithrandir to mail out list of beta blockers and assignees to ubuntu-devel
<mdz> fabbione: how about certification bugs?  there seemed to be some confusion about how many issues there were
<fabbione> mdz: sorted with last Ben email
<fabbione> mdz: without info we can't reassign properly.. so they are in a limbo
<mdz> fabbione: ok, so they are new bugs without enough info yet, not known issues
<fabbione> mdz: they were known for at least 2 milestones
<mdz> in that case they are not yet our responsibility to fix
<mdz> fabbione: er
<fabbione> mdz: but we can't triage them if i don't know where the problem comes from
<BenC> fabbione: The ones still in needs info?
<fabbione> and they are stalled in needinfo
<fabbione> BenC: yes.. the last 3 i mentioned in the mail
<BenC> Ok
<mdz> fabbione: so they were found a month ago and don't have details yet?
<BenC> mdz: Right
<fabbione> mdz: yeps.. right.. not enough details to know what is at fault
<BenC> aside from that, we only have one real bug we can work on for cert
<mdz> ok, I misunderstood, I thought they were somehow new
<fabbione> nope
<fabbione> there have been no new bugs since herd-4
<fabbione> from that point of view herd-5 was really good with no regressions
<mdz> fabbione: ok, I will follow up by email about this then
<fabbione> mdz: ok
<mdz> all actions from the previous meeting were complete?
<mdz> that's great
<Keybuk> yup
<Keybuk> well done everyone
<mdz> indeed
<mdz> Mithrandir: I heard today that the ISOs have been oversized for a while; is that fixed now
<mdz> s/$/?/
<pitti> mdz: I removed all langpacks today, so that I can start from a clean slate tomorrow
<pitti> wrt. input support and such
<Mithrandir> mdz: they haven't been for a while, at least not that I've seen.  I've been waiting for pitti to do his magic wrt langpacks.
<pitti> mdz: the only problematic one is ppc/alternate, it's huge and has no langpacks
<mdz> i386 desktop is 708M
<cjwatson> Jani mailed me today about oversizing in Xubuntu
<Mithrandir> pitti: you know you can just ask me for respins too?
<pitti> Mithrandir: right
<cjwatson> haven't looked at it yet
<pitti> mdz: today's images are still too big, tomorrow's ones should fit (except for ppc, but let's not worry about that ATM)
<cjwatson> we don't have to worry about powerpc, that was kind of the point of desupporting it
<mdz> so the fact that nobody reported this during their pre-beta testing means that you're all using DVD media for your tests, right?
<mdz> pitti: indeed
<Mithrandir> mdz: I gave all my CDs away more than a year ago.
<Mithrandir> being fed up with cdrecord.
<fabbione> i still use CD's
<Mithrandir> pitti: I'm fine with just ripping random bits off the ppc alternate.  Or even dropping it and saying "desktop or -server".
<ogra> mdz, we were probably busy with fixing bugs instead of playing with little silver disks :)
<fabbione> but server images are just smaller
<kylem> mdz, er, i386-alternate was fine for me on 700M cd.
<cjwatson> mdz: or vmware pointed at a .iso ...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Mar 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Mar 23:00 UTC: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 18:00 UTC: Community Council
<mdz> kylem: ok, maybe the oversizing is more recent than I thought
<kylem> ah, alternate-i386 is only 701M
<Seveas> (i'm fixing ubugtu not to change the topic during meetings, sorry for the annoyance)
<pitti> mdz: since Tuesday's feisty langpacks probably
<mdz> ok
<mdz> any other business?
<pitti> mdz: how badly do we want hwdb-increase on the live system?
<Keybuk> just a quick SoC note from me:
<pitti> mdz: I'm still blocked on that live fs script change for that
<Keybuk> the webapp seems broken (shock) and won't show me who's applied to be a mentor yet
<Keybuk> but if you could visit the URL I sent out, and fill that in, they should turn up eventually
<mdz> pitti: important enough to escalate that to management
<pitti> Keybuk: it worked fine today
<mdz> has anyone followed up with elmo on it?
<pitti> mdz: I can mail elmo about that RT, sure
<Keybuk> pitti: yeah, it'll show you as pending -- but it  won't show you as pending to *me* :p
<pitti> aha
<mdz> Keybuk: what's the deadline?
<Keybuk> mdz: for mentor applications?  Marc 23
<Keybuk> with an "h" in there
<mdz> ok
<Keybuk> ideally way before that, since mentors need to rate applications and claim students, etc.
<mdz> maybe best to ping individually the people who volunteered on-list and confirm that they signed up
<Keybuk> (that's also the student application deadline)
<Keybuk> yes
<mdz> ok, that's everything then
<mdz> thanks, all
<mdz> and good night
<dholbach> thanks
<seb128> thanks mdz
<dholbach> to you too
<asac> thanks
<fabbione> night
<bdmurray> thanks and good night
<ogra> do we need to have a suggestions page like last year ?
<ogra> oh ... to late
<iwj> Goodnight everyone.
<Keybuk> ogra: wiki.uc/GoogleSoC2007
<ogra> Keybuk, thanks ...
<ogra> somehow life passed me the last days with beta preparation ....
<heno> ogra: I found that the quality of the applications were much better where there was already a detailed spec
<ogra> heno, well, on the other had you probably get good initial (but unusable) applications that can get picked up later by others
<ogra> but yes, we had that too last year ...
<ogra> i'm still undecided if i want to mentor
* mvo goes to bed
<Seveas> @schedule
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-03-16
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 16 Mar 21:00: MOTU Council | 18 Mar 02:00: Xubuntu | 20 Mar 02:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 10:00: IRC Operators | 21 Mar 05:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 23:00: Edubuntu
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: going to join the MC meeting?
<Hobbsee> ajmitch: hrm...i could do that
<Hobbsee> argh!  the library closes early tonight!
<ajmitch> that's silly
<Hobbsee> yes.
<ajmitch> everyone knows that the library is the most favoured place to be on a friday night
* Hobbsee grins
<Hobbsee> of course!
<imbrandon> @schedule us/chicago
<imbrandon> @schedule us\chicago
<imbrandon> @schedule chicago
<imbrandon> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 16 Mar 05:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 10:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 10:00: Kernel Team | 19 Mar 18:00: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 13:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 07:00: Edubuntu
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 16 Mar 10:00: MOTU Council | 17 Mar 15:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 15:00: Kernel Team | 19 Mar 23:00: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 18:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 12:00: Edubuntu
* ajmitch pokes Ubugtu 
<dholbach> . o O { The bell tolls 11 times in Berlin... }
<sistpoty> hi everyone
<dholbach> does that mean we start without the smokers? :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<dholbach> Let's start off then
<sistpoty> I can live suppress my addiction for some time :P
<sistpoty> s/live//
<dholbach> I added a comment on "Need some advise about becoming MOTU of the claws-mail program! (?TuxCrafter)"
<dholbach> because I think we can deal with this pretty easily
* TheMuso vaguely remembers seeing that,
<dholbach> do we have anybody who'd like to be mentor for TuxCrafter and help him with getting things done?
<sistpoty> TuxCrafter around?
<TheMuso> Actually, I do remember seeing that.
<gpocentek> dholbach: I'll take care of this
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meetings is the agenda for everybody who's around
* ajmitch reloads the agenda
<dholbach> gpocentek: thank you very much
<gpocentek> it's Xubuntu related, so...
<sistpoty> yay, thanks
<dholbach> sistpoty and siretart wanted to discuss RFP bugs
<sistpoty> well, the Candidates page is a little bit messy imo, could we use lp bugs for it?
<sistpoty> s.th. like file against ubuntu, tag with RFP?
<dholbach> sounds good to me
<TheMuso> whT is rfp?
<gpocentek> I like the idea
<dholbach> TheMuso: request for package
<TheMuso> Oh.
* TheMuso practically never looks at that page. :)
<sistpoty> (that way we could also link to debian rfps/itps)
<dholbach> once assigned, we could regularly ping the assignee and track how it's going
<ajmitch> talk to laserjock about that please
<dholbach> ok, I'm going to announce the 'rfp' tag and the idea in general and link it from the bugs page
<sistpoty> ajmitch: yep, good idea
<ajmitch> he's been talking with the LP guys about what would best be used there
* imbrandon returns
<dholbach> neat-o :)
<dholbach> move on?
<ajmitch> in his role as LP contact :)
<ajmitch> ah, the charter
<imbrandon> ajmitch, rfp/itp ?
<sistpoty> ok, I'll contact laserjock, and see what he's for us... ok?
<dholbach> imbrandon: both - once it's turned into an itp, the bug would just have an assignee
<sistpoty> he has even
<siretart> dholbach: re: 'rfp' idea: this also means that the 'Candidates' Page gets removed from the wiki, right?
<imbrandon> dholbach, great
<dholbach> I'm happy to write some documentation on it
<dholbach> siretart: after a short while, I wouldn't want it to be just purged
<dholbach> ... just purged like that
<imbrandon> siretart, well not removed, but turned more into an explination of how to file a rfp on LP ;)
<siretart> dholbach: d'accord
<dholbach> also, we'd need to update Bugs/Responses
<siretart> imbrandon: jupp
<dholbach> I'll take care of that
<dholbach> ok, moving on to the charter
<sistpoty> maybe we could move to the last point... might make sense to have crimsun around for charter?
<dholbach> ok
<sistpoty> this is really just a silly question from my side, as I get bounces quite often... can we do s.th. and what?
<dholbach> regarding ml bounces, I deactivated sending mail to doomrunner and mailed him about it (found a different address in LP)
<dholbach> usually that's only for people whose mail account is full, etc
<sistpoty> ok, great :)
<dholbach> so after a few bounces you can take action on it
* ajmitch doesn't moderate often because the mailman folder is low down in the mutt config :)
<dholbach> it's manual, but easy to deal with
<dholbach> ajmitch: pffffft :)
<sistpoty> ok... I guess I'll look at the mailman thingy a little bit more in detail :)
<ajmitch> too easy to forget about the mail piling up...
<dholbach> sistpoty: in the membership page, just click the 'nomail' thingie for that person and you're set
<sistpoty> ah... cool. thx
<dholbach> ok, let's move on to KDE4 and the charter
<sistpoty> ok
<dholbach> i personally feel that they both describe problems with "where does the MC stand"
<dholbach> ... in the MOTU world
<sistpoty> yep
<dholbach> you might have read my latest response to the kde4 thread and I think we should have been quicker about escalaiting this to the TB
<dholbach> as the TB can do an ultimate decision and they approved the kde4 spec
<dholbach> Riddell: are you there?
<imbrandon> well not exactly, this should be treated just as any other UVFe request, only in that instead of one person asking for the UVFe you have a group
<Riddell> abend
<dholbach> imbrandon: what do you mean by "not exactly"?
<dholbach> Riddell: :-)
<sistpoty> hehe, just wanted to write that I also think we need some kind of escalation path, in case such problems occur later
<imbrandon> in either case MC shouldent have a say in what is or isnt in the universe imho, only if to grant a uvfe or not
<ajmitch> though motu-uvf gets its policy set by MC, etc
<ajmitch> 3 of the team overlap with the MC anyway :)
<imbrandon> right
<dholbach> what do you all think about moving the thread to ubuntu-devel and CC the TB?
<imbrandon> well my big thing here is why is this set of packages gettign diffrent treatment than any other set of packages asking for a UVFe ?
<dholbach> I think that will resolve the issue quickly and we can all move on
<dholbach> imbrandon: why a different treatment?
<dholbach> imbrandon: it was asked for a general exception for it
<ajmitch> we have't given out any general exceptions for a set of packages
<imbrandon> well all this "todo" about it , i mean it boils down to if you need more information to grant or deny the uvfe then ask, if not move on
<imbrandon> why all the TB etc
<ajmitch> because this was initially presented as "we're doing this, unless the MC overrides"
<ajmitch> confusion as to what team does what, etc
<dholbach> until now there was no decision yet, but people voiced their concerns/approval on a general exception
<imbrandon> right, i'm not saying it was presented in the best way, but alot of things arent, just like any bug, there is a "more info" choice
<imbrandon> ;)
<ajmitch> for every other package, it's being done on a package-by-package basis, for each version
<ajmitch> rather than a blanket exception for new packages & new versions
<sistpoty> actually I'm not too happy to continue this thread... it imo caused enough harm already. and since we've been unable to come to a decision (I guess that's kinda our fault) I'd say that means we didn't object
<ajmitch> so there's no precedent, hence the slow decision
* ajmitch would think that the best way to get them useful is to stick them in universe & aggressively update in feisty-backports
<imbrandon> agrees with ajmitch
<dholbach> to resolve the issue quickly, I'd suggest to contact the TB to get a final ACK and briefly mention the pros and cons that were pointed out, so we can move on
<imbrandon> and voiced or not i know that is the intentions of those of us that work on them
<sistpoty> dholbach: ok, with me
<imbrandon> dholbach, see thats just it, can the MC not grant a UVFe? why ........ never mind, i guess only the "easy" decisions are ...... /me shushes
<dholbach> imbrandon: can you elaborate?
<imbrandon> not without being so frank that i'm affraid to offend someone
<dholbach> move on, that's what we're all here for
<ajmitch> go ahead anyway
<sistpoty> imbrandon: better break toes know than kill persons later ;)
<dholbach> I'm sure we can make a rational decision and learn from the situation
<dholbach> Riddell: I guess you're quite busy atm, but what is your view on this?
<imbrandon> ok, then imho MC should stepup and say yes or no, dont fall back to TB because its a hard decesion, if the awnser is no then we have to deal with it, if you need more info , then ask
<ajmitch> imbrandon: that's hardly offensive :)
<imbrandon> but falling to the TB i feel is a step back for the MC
<imbrandon> not just this situation
<Riddell> my view is the same as that of the kubuntu council, the packages should go in.  there's no point in having development packages any older than we have to and they have already solved some significant problems upstream by having them
<ajmitch> the reason for falling back to the TB, so to speak, is to get a clear understanding of where our reponsibilities extend to
<ajmitch> ie whether other teams would need to go through the policies set by the MC for anything in universe
<ajmitch> in this case it was a preapproved spec that we'd be blocking if we didn't let it in
<imbrandon> ajmitch, right, and as i said, the KC is asking for a UVFe , not telling since the spec went over time
<imbrandon> but imho its justified
<sistpoty> and falling back to TB is sane if we end up with conflicting interests from teams
<ajmitch> imbrandon: right, but this is a different UVFe, up until release day :)
<sistpoty> (since I guess we also need a clear escalation path)
<imbrandon> ok
<dholbach> I agree with sistpoty - it'd be nice to hear what gpocentek and crimsun have to say
<dholbach> (crimsun might be a bit late)
<gpocentek> well...
<ajmitch> hopefully crimsun gets to the office (without a speeding ticket)
<sistpoty> hehe
<gpocentek> I'd be happy to see KDE4 in universe, but not really happy to see that it won't be maintained
<gpocentek> and I really understand why the Kubuntu wants it
<imbrandon> it will be maintained, through feisty-backports
<TheMuso> c/
<TheMuso> gah
<Riddell> why does Kubuntu want to help the development of the next version of our desktop?
<Riddell> seems pretty obvious to me
<dholbach> do apps in -backports build against libs in -backports?
<ajmitch> gpocentek: do you feel happy with letting the kubuntu guys do what they will with the KDE4 stuff in feisty, given that there's already some of it there?
<imbrandon> i'm both on the KDE team and -backports and will personaly see that it is backported in a timely manner
<imbrandon> dholbach, yes
<dholbach> good to know
<sistpoty> imbrandon: that's great to hear
<gpocentek> ajmitch: I'm sure they won't do "what they want"
<crimsun> (present, sorry for tardiness)
<gpocentek> Riddell: "I really understand"
<sistpoty> wb crimsun
<ajmitch> gpocentek: that's what's being asked for - permission for new packages (kde4 apps), and updating the snapshots until release time
<Riddell> gpocentek: ooh, oops, my bad
<ajmitch> crimsun: welcome
<imbrandon> wb crimsun
<gpocentek> we've gone with svn snapshot of Xfce until the last dapper development's day
<ajmitch> that was pre-4.2?
<dholbach> shall we do a tentative vote and see where we stand? how would the result look in +1, +0,5, 0, -0,5 and -1 votes?
<ajmitch> dholbach: you forgot complex numbers
<imbrandon> you might also note too that feisty+1 will likely see a stable release of kde4 , this will GREATLY help the next version stableize
<imbrandon> as we are pretty much one of the top KDE4 development platforms for upstream KDE
<sistpoty> dholbach: sure
* ajmitch puts in a +1
<ajmitch> imbrandon: that's interesting
<ajmitch> I didn't realise kubuntu was so popular now in the developer community
<imbrandon> in the kde developer community it is , 50/50 kubuntu/suse
<ajmitch> it used to be a lot of mandrake, back in the day :)
<imbrandon> :)
<dholbach> I'd vote with: +0,5 as I think that it's vaiuable and somewhat taken care of (through backports - bear in mind that not all people have activated them), but I'm not convinced that there will be enough manpower to feed those bugs upstream, to be really useful - also I think it's not good to have old delveopment snapshots
<sistpoty> +1... because imbrandon will take care for backports (which was my main opposition), and because UVF-team seemed happy with it (at least from my memory of the thread)
<gpocentek> (sorry, boken connection)
<crimsun> RE: KDE 4 snaps in feisty, precedence definitely has been set with Xfce for the past two stable releases in _main_. I've also already mailed about my feeling that the Kubuntu community wants these snapshots, and because they exist already in edgy, we really have no reason to not have such in feisty. Ultimately, however, I honestly don't feel the MC has the "powah" here to say yay or nay.
<dholbach> gpocentek: we were just conducting a tentative vote to see where we stand -- we're at +2,5 at the moment :)
<ajmitch> crimsun: right, the kubuntu guys seem happy for now if MC approves it :)
<dholbach> crimsun: I tend to agree with your last point and we should discuss that in the next agenda point, when it comes to the charter.
<gpocentek> dholbach: thanks
<gpocentek> +1 from if the backports are available
<crimsun> I'm happy to say +1 for it based not on "geez, enough already" but on precedence.
<dholbach> imbrandon: (and I guess that's why we ultimately lagged behind on making a decision)
<imbrandon> :)
<gpocentek> (My fear what to see a development snapshot quite unusable and not updated in the repos)
<dholbach> Ok, shall we move on, announce the outcome? Any conditions?
<dholbach> I don't think we need further discussion now.
<ajmitch> imbrandon: see, that was mostly painless ;)
<imbrandon> hehe yes
<ajmitch> no throwing chairs involved
<imbrandon> i just dident wanna step on toes but knew you all could pull it off
<ajmitch> part of the problem is what we'll discuss now
<ajmitch> what responsibilities MC has
<sistpoty> yep
<dholbach> what do you all think about having a weekly update on ubuntu-motu@ about how kde4 goes? what has been updated, what blockers are currently seen, etc?
<crimsun> (apparently I've traded one unstable connection for another, great. I'll lag momentarily.)
<imbrandon> ok just to be clear , we have a UVFe for KDE4 snapshots / programs ?
<dholbach> I think that'd be only fair to know what's going on and where we might want to step in if things break to awfully
<ajmitch> imbrandon: aiui, yes, since we know there's a defined set of programs there you'll be putting in
<imbrandon> dholbach, sure, and i'll be happy to be the "contact" for that if you wish , between the MC and the KDE team
<ajmitch> thanks
<dholbach> imbrandon: thanks a lot
<dholbach> we'll announce it like that and inform the TB about the decision
<sistpoty> yay, thanks
<dholbach> moving on
<dholbach> what lessons can we learn from this? shall we do a quick brainstorming on that?
<dholbach> i'd like to hear imbrandon and Riddell on that, because their input is quite valuable as "other teams who deal with the MC"
<ajmitch> we need to move faster on making a decision
<ajmitch> while keeping everyone involved
<dholbach>  * need clearer guidelines on what needs a MC decision and what not
<sistpoty> ajmitch++
<dholbach>  * don't start voting too early
<sistpoty> (sorry for that)
<dholbach> no problem - I'm very happy we're learning that fast
<ajmitch> some MOTUs feel like they're cut out now
<imbrandon> well on this feasico i have only 2 things i would have changed, imho , 1) the initial email might not have been in the form of a question but i would have requested that it was, or treated it as such ( e.g. asked for more info to grant/deny the UVFe ) and 2) ....
<crimsun> I think ultimately we need to be careful to not appear to decide _for_ MOTU as a whole but simply decide who becomes MOTU.
<ajmitch> crimsun: right, that's a matter of whether we should be making these decisions or not, no?
<crimsun> It can be confusing as quite a few of us (MC) straddle teams.
<crimsun> ajmitch: right
<imbrandon> tream other teams that come into your "domain" as any other person, it shouldent have been any diffrent that KC was asking or joe blow
<imbrandon> yea
<sistpoty> crimsun: that will leave the following problems: who could do this decisions then? how could decision be done in a timely matter?
<dholbach> I agree with crimsun there - the MC was envisioned as somebody being responsible for decisions, not making them as a clique - up until now we didn't do that many decisions and they've always been backed up by lots of MOTUs
<dholbach> imbrandon: how do you feel were you treated differently than joe blow?
<ajmitch> even for the SRU policy vote, which was done in a MOTU meeting, some MOTUs felt like their votes wouldn't count
<dholbach> we should point that out in the charter
<sistpoty> definitely
<imbrandon> i dont think it was really, but i was just saying, you were worried weather it was KC saying yes or MC saying yes, it should have been turned arround right away in the MC's head that someone was asking for a UVFe , not someone was demanding one
<crimsun> In the future, we should move quickly to delegate to the appropriate team. It's kinda unfortunate at the present overlap, but that will change in the next release. In this instance, IMO MC should have said "oh, this is motu-uvf material, *handoff*".
<dholbach> imbrandon: I personally don't feel that it was a KC vs MC decision. I feel that the problems at hand were discussed quite rationally
<imbrandon> e.g. if i came to the MC and said "i've decided i am granting a uvfe for apt-mirror because i maintain it" you would naturaly turn and ask "why" and explain the situation, not debate weatyher i had the "powa" todoso
<ajmitch> imbrandon: I think there was confusion about whether the MC would have authority to say no
<imbrandon> dholbach, i 100% agree
<dholbach> imbrandon: ok good :)
<imbrandon> here they were , i mean leading upto here
<imbrandon> just was an observation
<imbrandon> not a ohh no, kinda thing
<dholbach> :)
<ajmitch> :)
<crimsun> personally there seemed to be a lot of "gut reaction" mixed with rational argument
* ajmitch is becoming too much like dholbach, scary
<dholbach> I propose to point out in the Charter that the MC is responsible for decisions and that anybody can track them down for deciding in a certain way, but that they're not making the decision - merely making sure that a decision is reached (if there's a dispute)
<ajmitch> so we should try & keep as many decisions in the MOTU list & meeting as possible
<dholbach> that way people won't feel there's a clique who decides over them and blocks them - does that make sense?
<ajmitch> at what point would the MC step in & make a decision?
<imbrandon> right, the MOTU's as a whole
<crimsun> I concur there (to both Daniel and Andrew)
<gpocentek> dholbach: it does make sens
<ajmitch> eg we debated the kde stuff for a week or so
<sistpoty> hm... I'm not quite sure if it works out... since motu meeting (the only instance we came to decisions before MC) are scheduled only every 3 weeks
<imbrandon> we can step those up if needed
<crimsun> we should always be able to meet more frequently as necessary and certainly in urgent cases
<imbrandon> but i dont see a whole lot of decisions needeing to be made imho
<dholbach> should we make it a MOTU meeting every 1,5 weeks and just make sure that there's a MC quorum if things really get out of hand?
<ajmitch> making everything too democratic can slow things down a bit - see how GRs work in debian :)
<dholbach> and drop MC meetings
<dholbach> and tag agenda points as (POLICY) or something
<sistpoty> no... imo we should make more clear when MC will step in/what's the place of mc
* ajmitch doesn't think that every decision needs to be put before all the MOTUs
<dholbach> ajmitch: what do you mean by that?
<ajmitch> retaining the ability to make minor decisions quickly is important
<imbrandon> sistpoty, +1 , i only think the MC should step in where the MOTU's cant decide amongst themselfs , even on policy
<dholbach> I think it's good to have a MC quorum around, so it has the "sign off" effect and can inform the TB as the MC is supposed to
<dholbach> I'm not sure we need different meetings for that
<ajmitch> in debian the DPL can make a number of decisions, delegations etc
<dholbach> and I think that future agendas will be quite short
<ajmitch> but everyone can still vote by way of GRs
<imbrandon> ok let me pint this out, the MOTU made decisions before and when a decision couldent be reached it was taken to the TB , the MC is only taking the TB spot in this senerio , not the whole of the MOTU
<dholbach> ajmitch: what do you propose?
<sistpoty> well, I see it like that: MC should step in exactly where's need. if s.th. is working out already, it should not interfere. This would then mean that Motu meeting can do decisions on its own
<ajmitch> sistpoty: agreed
<sistpoty> if these are dumb... or if a decision needs to be done very quick, MC can jump in
<dholbach> do you think we need two "different" meetings?
<ajmitch> dholbach: I mean things like team delegations can take awhile if it's put to nominations, everyone voting, etc
<imbrandon> dholbach, no imho
<crimsun> OTOH, we need to be careful to not "cut off" any MOTU, so we're walking a thin line here.
<dholbach> crimsun: can you explain?
<ajmitch> jumping into a decision too quickly, not getting input from others
<dholbach> right
* ajmitch would hope that more MOTUs could attend the MC meetings
<crimsun> as Andrew stated
<ajmitch> unless we want to scrap them & have more MOTU meetings
<imbrandon> i think only one meeting is nessesary but  a quorum of MC members is needed at any MOTU meeting incase decision pop up
<ajmitch> we do need to talk about some MC-specific things, like how we're going with the new MOTU applications :)
<dholbach> I propose: having motu meetings every two weeks, everybody can vote (also on mailing lists if that's appropriate) and if there are policy decisions together with a MC quorum we can present it to the TB
<ajmitch> dholbach: sounds good
<TheMuso> Although not MC, I like the sound of that.
<gpocentek>  /me agrees with dholbach
<ajmitch> we'll need to rotate the meeting times a bit
<ajmitch> 3 of the MC members are (nominally) in european timezones :)
<crimsun> dholbach: as a way of removing MC meetings altogether?
<fernando> moin all
<dholbach> crimsun: yes, because my impression is that the topics are roughly the same in those meetings anyway
<dholbach> "the same"
<sistpoty> well, I still don't see the need why we would need MC quorum. Imo this sounds to me like taking away decisions from motu.
<ajmitch> gets more input into MC stuff from the rest of the MOTU crowd
<dholbach> sistpoty: only in the decisions we present to the TB - like BIG changes
<crimsun> sistpoty: right, I agree there. In MOTU meetings we are not MC but simply MOTU, IMO.
<sistpoty> crimsun: exactly
<ajmitch> so in the case that all of the MC members vote one way, while the rest of the MOTUs vote another way..?
<crimsun> (not that one can "simply" be MOTU, but ... semantics)
<ajmitch> majority rules, right?
<dholbach> can we agree that there are certain decisions that need "signing off" or need somebody who's "responsible"?
<sistpoty> ajmitch: yep
<crimsun> ajmitch: right, we should still be accountable to our body, so to speak
<ajmitch> sistpoty: ok, just wanted to make that clear :)
<sistpoty> dholbach: no
<dholbach> ok, maybe I meant being "accountable to our body" :)
<sistpoty> dholbach: I'd formulate it the other way round... if big decisions are really getting to be hosed, MC should *then* intervine, but not generally be needed if things work out
<sistpoty> was that english?
<crimsun> dholbach: the one that I can think of immediately is deciding who becomes MOTU. Beyond that, I really don't see our entity "intruding."
<dholbach> when do you think there needs to be a MC quorum?
<imbrandon> sistpoty, +5
<imbrandon> crimsun, +25
<dholbach> ok, that makes sense and is fine with me
<dholbach> we're getting quite good at formulating it the right way :)
<sistpoty> hehe
<ajmitch> ok, do you think the TB will agree?
<ajmitch> or is the TB expecting the MC to make decisions?
<dholbach> can somebody try to sum up the proposal?
<crimsun> AFAIK the TB has only delegated to MC the approval of new MOTU
<imbrandon> from what i recall in UDS , the TB is only expecting the laod to be off them generaly, so if we wouldent have taken it to the TB before then the MC shouldent be there
<imbrandon> e.g. only new members
<imbrandon> or "hard decisions that the motus cant agree on after much much debate"
<imbrandon> thats it
<sistpoty> dholbach: I can try to do it
<dholbach> ok
<imbrandon> ie kinda what i was getting at a while ago that the KDE4 thing was a motu-uvf decision not a MC one
<imbrandon> just as an example
<ajmitch> proposal: that all MOTUs vote on issues, the MC members having the same status as any other MOTU, with meetings being held every two weeks, replacing the 3 weekly cycle of MOTU/MC meetings
<ajmitch> and that if decisions are not being reached, then the MC steps in & makes a decision where needed
<ajmitch> what did I miss from that? :)
<imbrandon> ajmitch, looks like you have it imho
<sistpoty> yep
<crimsun> I would amend the last bit to be "if decisions are not being reached in a timely fashion" where timely fashion is clearly stated
<dholbach> to me it sounds quite accurate
<ajmitch> days? 1 week?
<ajmitch> or within the context of an irc meeting?
<imbrandon> or s/timely fassion/MOTU's bring it to the MC/
<dholbach> that always depends on all the facts being on the table
<imbrandon> ?
<sistpoty> imbrandon: sounds sane
<crimsun> we probably need to relax it a bit over our own 48 hrs
<crimsun> and since we don't well know that all facts have been presented...
<dholbach> yeah
<crimsun> 1 week would seem to drag. Does 3 days (72 hours) sound like a reasonable compromise?
<imbrandon> that and some MOTU's arent on for days at a time, even though they may be active
<sistpoty> crimsun: 3 days is fine with me
<gpocentek> (sorry guys, I have to leave)
<crimsun> see ya gauvain
<sistpoty> cya gpocentek
<ajmitch> bye gpocentek, thanks for helping out
<dholbach> bye gpocentek
<imbrandon> if we can wait 7 days for a package in -proposed , i think we can wait 7 days for MOTU input on a topic ( givein that both are in place for the same reason, to give everyone a chance to givce input )
<dholbach> ok, let's add something like "the MC has been called for a vote and a clear proposal has been made"
<sistpoty> I thought you mean about MC decisions now?
<dholbach> that will make it a lot easier
<sistpoty> dholbach++
<imbrandon> dholbach ++
<crimsun> yes, the distinction is necessary, and I concur
<dholbach> ok, let's add that to the charter
<dholbach> I'm quite happy with how quickly we resolved that and that we could all agree on it
<imbrandon> ok guys i know i'm non-MC but i must run ( just FYI ) back in ~45 minutes
<dholbach> feel all patted on the back :)
<sistpoty> hm... I'm not sure if it works out... sorry. let's try to replay the kde4 question how it would have ideally happened with the new charter, shall we?
<imbrandon> sistpoty, motu-uvf would ahve decided and MC would have never been involved, with this charter
<crimsun> sistpoty: we probably would have called for a vote right about the 1-wk mark
<sistpoty> crimsun: so that would have been 2 days ago
<dholbach> in an ideal world uploads wouldn't just have happened
<dholbach> but that we don't have control over
<sistpoty> hm... actually I'm not quite sure who would have made what decision with the current proposal. is anyone else feeling this way?
<sistpoty> because I think we should try to make that clear
<crimsun> sistpoty: KDE 4 should have been a motu-uvf decision
<ajmitch> with the current proposal, it would have been up to motu-uvf - but there's nothing about how long a team like -uvf could take to make a decision
<dholbach> I think we all became more concious of whose responsibility what is - nobody would expect a certain team to do a decision and maybe things wouldn't be in limbo
<sistpoty> ok... so Riddell would have asked, MC would have stayed quiet and motu-uvf have come up with a decision?
<sistpoty> and in case there weren't a reaction from motu-uvf, MC would ping them, right?
<ajmitch> yep
<dholbach> that sounds good to me
<crimsun> yes
<ajmitch> that would also cover things like that xgl update
<sistpoty> and if this still won't lead to a decision in a timely manner, MC steps in and makes one. agreed?
<crimsun> that sounds sane
<ajmitch> great
<sistpoty> ok, I guess I understand the notion of it now :)
<ajmitch> ok, for other timely decisions - we have 2 weeks to make decisions on new MOTUs
<ajmitch> I think Lutin's application is almost 2 weeks old
<sistpoty> good point
<ajmitch> is the timely decision thing in the charter for that?
<sistpoty> not yet I believe...
<ajmitch> since we should really call for votes in the last 2 days or so if it stretches out that long
<dholbach> what do you think about not letting such mails unanswered for more 24h? so one of us will either a) ask a question or b) step to do a vote
<crimsun> I think I'm going in invoke (to myself) the sabdfl's sentiment here regarding MOTU approval (back when TB was still approving MOTU), and that is we should give applicants the benefit of the doubt.
<sistpoty> not quite sure actually... I didn't make up my mind on one day but also didn't have an idea on the same day what to ask
* ajmitch usually doesn't have bright ideas of what to ask & reads the conversation
<sistpoty> but I like ajmitch's proposal
* sistpoty often asks around on #ubuntu-motu what other motus think
<crimsun> dholbach: I'm a bit uncomfortable with saying someone _must_ respond to email in 24 hrs
<dholbach> I was just trying to make some sort of commitment
<dholbach> I don't think it's the best proposal we can come up with either.
<sistpoty> how about calling for votes after 1 week?
<crimsun> 12 days seems reasonable
<crimsun> it's a bit longer than 1 week and still gives MC 48 hours.
<dholbach> after the application came in?
<sistpoty> yep
<crimsun> right
<ajmitch> for most, I suspect we'd make a decision within 3-4 days
<sistpoty> of course we can always do shorter, if everybody agrees right on the application ;)
<Hobbsee> argh, MOTU meeting
<TheMuso> Hobbsee: MC meeting actually.
<Hobbsee> no, ubuntu dev
<sistpoty> hi Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> oh.  oops
* Hobbsee stays quiet then
<Hobbsee> hey sistpoty
<dholbach> Hobbsee: noooooo, no need to be quiet :)
<crimsun> does 12 days seem acceptable?
<Hobbsee> dholbach: but i'm not in MC?
<ajmitch> crimsun: yep
<sistpoty> +1
<crimsun> (I have lecture in 15 minutes, so I need to begin wrapping up here)
<dholbach> I'm happy with that too
<sistpoty> ok, fine
<dholbach> Hobbsee: that shouldn't stop you :)
<dholbach> ok, we'll add that to the charter too?
<sistpoty> sure
<dholbach> super
<dholbach> any other business?
<ajmitch> meeting times
<sistpoty> I'd also suggest to have the charter ack'd during the next motu meeting
<ajmitch> TODO lists
<dholbach> ajmitch: meetings times: go with the next motu meeting
<crimsun> sistpoty: yes, let's bring that up
<ajmitch> dholbach: ok, when is that scheduled for?
<crimsun> the 27th of this month IIRC
<dholbach> 27th, 9 utc
<ajmitch> hm
<ajmitch> Tuesday, Mar 23rd, 8:00 UTC
<ajmitch> that's what the wiki page says
<ajmitch> tuesday is the 27th
<sistpoty> ajmitch: no 23rd is wrong. I couldn't count weeks when doing the minutes (and just followed the typo in mm)
<dholbach> hum... the fridge calendar says something else
<ajmitch> 8 or 9 UTC?
<dholbach> that'd be the usual 1,5 weeks
<dholbach> todo list: ajmitch: will you file those unmetdeps bugs?
<ajmitch> yeah, ran into problems with massfile
<ajmitch> and LP ignoring bugs I filed
* ajmitch has to chase that up
<dholbach> ajmitch: let's disucss that together outside the meeting
<ajmitch> ok
<dholbach> i'd also encourage each and everyone of you to tag bugs as 'bitesize' and 'packaging'
<dholbach> to me it seems like a bunch of them got fixed already
<ajmitch> you did a great job tagging all those
<dholbach> and it's easy enough for us to do
<dholbach> thanks
<sistpoty> bitesize really rocks!
<Hobbsee> guess you could tag all the unmet deps bugs as bitesize
<dholbach> most of them probably
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: not all of them are
<dholbach> we have a unmetdeps tag as well
* ajmitch doesn't know if he can tag by email yet
<dholbach> ajmitch: heno has something figured out for that - we can include him in the discussion
<ajmitch> maybe I should just file bugs by the web UI
<ajmitch> like apport does
<dholbach> universe hug day next thursday?
<dholbach> friday will be a regular one
<crimsun> that sounds good
<dholbach> perfect - let's adjourn then?
<ajmitch> sure, how regular shall our hug days & revu days be?
* ajmitch is happy to adjourn :)
<dholbach> i made 'universe hug days' a fixed agenda item :)
<ajmitch> ok
<dholbach> maybe we can revu days once feisty+1 opens
<sistpoty> sounds sane!
<ajmitch> we need all people in motu-uvf helping out
<imbrandon> firdays are revu days once feisty opens ;)
<ajmitch> for the bugs are starting to pile up
<dholbach> super... adjourned then - thanks everybody
* dholbach will mail about universe hug day
<imbrandon> fridays*
<ajmitch> thanks!
<crimsun> thanks everyone
<sistpoty> yay... thanks everyone
<Klaidas[anapnea] > @schedule Vilnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 17 Mar 17:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 17:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 01:00: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 20:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 14:00: Edubuntu | 22 Mar 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-03-17
<j1mc> hey all, does #ubuntu-meeting take into account daylight saving time for U.S. folks
<Hobbsee> j1mc: i'ts all in UTC time.
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: There is some confusion regarding things being announced as "GMT", which as I understand it is not the same, since GMT does daylight savings, while UTC is stable.  Is that right?
<j1mc> http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx  :)
<sid> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 17 Mar 11:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 11:00: Kernel Team | 19 Mar 19:00: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 14:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 08:00: Edubuntu | 22 Mar 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<j1mc> that should answer the question . . . thx, Hobbsee
<gouki> Nice link j1mc, thanks :)
<j1mc> gouki: :)  there were three of us talking about it in #xubuntu (we have a meeting tomorrow), so . . .
<j1mc> glad i just used the interwebs
<gouki> Heheh
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: i'm presuming it's UTC.  so GMT adn all the other countries doing daylight saving just have to use the offset
<HyperDUDe> hello ppl
* Hobbsee waves
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 18 Mar 02:00: Xubuntu | 20 Mar 02:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 10:00: IRC Operators | 21 Mar 05:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 23:00: Edubuntu | 23 Mar 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<HyperDUDe> @schedule india
<emonkey-m> @schedule zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 17 Mar 16:00: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 16:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 00:00: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 19:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 13:00: Edubuntu | 22 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Hobbsee> darn, i need to move that IRC ops meeting a day later.
<HyperDUDe> @schedule Calcutta
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Calcutta: 17 Mar 20:30: Xubuntu | 19 Mar 20:30: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 04:30: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 23:30: Community Council | 21 Mar 17:30: Edubuntu | 22 Mar 21:30: Ubuntu Development Team
<HyperDUDe> @schedule dili
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Dili: 18 Mar 00:00: Xubuntu | 20 Mar 00:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 08:00: IRC Operators | 21 Mar 03:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 21:00: Edubuntu | 23 Mar 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<HyperDUDe> :/
<HyperDUDe> :S
<HyperDUDe> :|
<HyperDUDe> :O
<HyperDUDe> :@
<HyperDUDe> :D
<poningru> ok dude
<poningru> we get it
<HyperDUDe> :D
<HyperDUDe> wat?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<Hobbsee> HyperDUDe: this is a meeting channel.
<Hobbsee> HyperDUDe: why are you spamming it?
<HyperDUDe> sry
<HyperDUDe> sry
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<effie_jayx> hey'all
<Hobbsee> hiya effie_jayx
<effie_jayx> poor guy... I bet he misses the emticons on his messenger :S
<effie_jayx> hey Hobbsee  :D
<Hobbsee> heh
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 18 Mar 02:00: Xubuntu | 20 Mar 02:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 10:00: IRC Operators | 21 Mar 05:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 23:00: Edubuntu | 23 Mar 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<j1mc> any xubuntu-ites here?
<effie_jayx> j1mc,  xubunteros is the word ;)
<j1mc> i mean, xubunteros?  :)
<j1mc> hi Romaan
<Romaan> hi
<j1mc> hey Grey_Loki
<Grey_Loki> Hihi :)
<j1mc> you two here for the xubuntu meeting?
<Grey_Loki> Hrm, I see in the topic there's a MOTU council. Is this MOTU as in, Mark of the Unicorn?
<Grey_Loki> Even though I missed it >.<
<j1mc> heh . . .
* j1mc can't change the topic, but according to the fridge, this is xubuntu time
<cellofellow> Hi
<j1mc> hi cellofellow
<j1mc> thanks for stopping by
<cellofellow> Who else is here?
<j1mc> looks like it might be a short meeting, cellofellow
<effie_jayx> j1mc,  you can change it now
<Seveas> (topic is messed up, bot is broken)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:j1mc] : xubuntu meeting
<Seveas> @topic
<Seveas> hmm
<Seveas> ok, stupid bot
<Seveas> @reload Webcal
<Seveas> @topic
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Mar 23:00 UTC: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 18:00 UTC: Community Council | 21 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Mar 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<j1mc> Seveas: thanks
<Grey_Loki> Is there a log of this MOTU meeting somewhere? I'd quite like to read up on what was said, assuming that it's the sound-related MOTU...
<effie_jayx> Grey_Loki,  check #ubuntu-motu
* Grey_Loki frowns
<Grey_Loki> Damn
<Grey_Loki> Masters Of The Universe?
<effie_jayx> Grey_Loki,  aham
* Grey_Loki sighs
<effie_jayx> Xubuntu meeting here :D ?
<cellofellow> yeah, I think.
<cellofellow> supposed to be
<j1mc> hey effie_jayx yeah . . .
<j1mc> we don't have many people here right now, but . . . any of you involved with documentation or artwork?
<cellofellow> not really.
<j1mc> effie_jayx: you?
<effie_jayx> j1mc,  In spanish
<j1mc> ok
<cellofellow> sometimes I give jmak artwork tips. I support his ideas more than some of the other devs.
<Seveas> I fixed the xubuntu usplash theme, that's all art I do :)
<cellofellow> not that i'm a dev
<effie_jayx> j1mc,  I ma interested in begining xubuntu docs in spanish... I currently manage a team of spanish documentation
<j1mc> well, i guess i can provide a brief update on docs . . .
<j1mc> unlike edgy, did provide some updates to our docs
* j1mc welcomes TheSheep_ 
<j1mc> the updates primarily were to make them current, and fix glaring errors but no major overhauls
<TheSheep_> hello everyone
<j1mc> effie_jayx: do you know who you'd contact to help with translating them in spanish?
<cellofellow> I'm not exactly sure what is new in Feisty. New versions of all the bits and pieces as usual.
<effie_jayx> j1mc,  I came here hopeful that  Iwould network with someone doing some spanish doc
<cellofellow> I would if I knew a lick of spanish. :)
<j1mc> effie_jayx: ok, i'll see who i can put you in touch with.  i know one of the main kubuntu doc people.
<j1mc> can you /msg me and send me your email address?
<effie_jayx> sure
<j1mc> TheSheep_: what have you been involved in?
<cellofellow> Welcome Centre?
<j1mc> cellofellow: do you know if that made it through?
<cellofellow> not sure.
<cellofellow> TheSheep_: how is Welcome Centre going anyways? It's sort of like docs  . :)
<j1mc> cellofellow: what have you been up to, other than providing good support on #xubuntu?  :)
<cellofellow> Learning to program with Python.
<cellofellow> Adding some insights to xubuntu-devel mailing list.
<j1mc> although it wasn't listed as an agenda item, xubuntu ISO testing is getting better, with more community participation.
<cellofellow> I don't have a CD burner, and so I am limited to using QEMU.
<cellofellow> I can use QEMU to install on a normal hard drive and run from there.
<highvoltage> hey guys
<cellofellow> hi
<j1mc> ok, if you want, i can see if they have a specific spot to report QEMU tests
<j1mc> hi highvoltage
<TheSheep_> j1mc: oh, sorry, mainly welcome centre, it's not doing very well
<cellofellow> I install using qemu, but then run in the normal box.
<highvoltage> hey j1mc and cellofellow
<j1mc> highvoltage: how are things with xubuntu packages in edubuntu?
<j1mc> TheSheep_: what needs help in welcome centre?  just more manpower?  what skills are required to work on it?
<TheSheep_> j1mc: the program is more or less finished, we don't really have any content for it though
<cellofellow> highvoltage: do we NEED to compete with TuxLabs or can we just let them fill their niche?
<j1mc> in content, you mean docs?
<cellofellow> TheSheep_: where is the content wiki again?
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: welcome.sheep.art.pl
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: we can move it to regular ubuntu wiki
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: or anywhere else
<highvoltage> cellofellow: I don't think tuXlabs and Xubuntu ever competed
<highvoltage> cellofellow: I think tuxlab has done good in getting xubuntu out there, and getting it more wider testing
<cellofellow> TuxLabs is Edubuntu stuff with XFCE desktop. Designed for LTSP installations.
<cellofellow> so, why we need Edubuntu stuff in Xubuntu?
<cellofellow> tuxlabs does that.
<highvoltage> ah, I see
<j1mc> oh . . . pardon my comment, i was just going off of some notes from the last meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<j1mc> (my comment about xubuntu packages in edubuntu)
<highvoltage> cellofellow: well, Edubuntu is going to use Xubuntu packages on the edubuntu-add-on disk, so there's not any additional load on the xubuntu team has to do in terms of education at the moment
<cellofellow> ok, so an XFCE-Edubuntu option disk?
<highvoltage> something like that, yes
<highvoltage> Edubuntu will install a gnome desktop, and there will also be an Edubuntu CD 2 disk
<highvoltage> that will contain Xfce for those who would like to implement it
<cellofellow> ok then.
<highvoltage> cellofellow: but if anyone would like to get more involved with xubuntu-edubuntu collaboration, I'd urge them to join #edubuntu too
<highvoltage> (and vice-versa)
<j1mc> highvoltage: sounds good.  thanks for that tip.
<cellofellow> well, allright then. I might try that. I just installed Xubuntu on a computer that is mostly for younger kids.
<j1mc> i think both edubuntu and xubuntu struggle a bit with manpower, no?  i know nixternal was asking for edubuntu doc help.
<highvoltage> j1mc: yes, both need help
<j1mc> if we can work together on some items, maybe we can pool resources.
<highvoltage> both have strong, small cores, but I think they are at a stage where both needs to expand
<highvoltage> j1mc: sounds very good
<cellofellow> I would think Canonical would put a lot of effort behind Edubuntu, because it's a more commercial-oriented version than the otehrs.
* j1mc will look into edubuntu project.  cellofellow i agree.  esp because edubuntu is an official Canonical project.
* j1mc thinks the welcome centre looks pretty great
<highvoltage> the demand for Xfce is *definitely* growing, imho, it's just a matter of time before Canonical will have to provide for Xfce as well
<highvoltage> especially on large LTSP deployments.
<cellofellow> I think the language is a bit too technical and needs to be lively and written for the lay-man or even the semi-technophibic.
* j1mc *nods*
<j1mc> cellofellow: was the welcome centre intended to replace the "getting started guide"?
<cellofellow> It was supposed to pop up and "welcome" the user on first boot I believe.
<TheSheep_> j1mc: it was supposed to have links to the most important parts of documentation
<TheSheep_> j1mc: something like the windows' one
<j1mc> TheSheep_: ok, kind of like an introduction to the documentation - more concise
<TheSheep_> j1mc: I'm not convinced it's needed, but it was fun to write :)
* highvoltage thought that big parts of it was already written
<j1mc> :-)  yeah
<cellofellow> I think the language in it should be bright and happy. It seems technical and concise right now. Not that concise is bad, you want it in serious docs, but in a Welcome! thing it should say the basics in a nice happy way.
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: you are absolutely right
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: some dialog would be nice too
<highvoltage> been a while since I've seen Adam on IRC, anyone been in contact with him?
<cellofellow> Dialog? how do you mean.
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: unfortunately, most of it is just copied from the ubuntu docs or written by tech people
<j1mc> Adam?  you mean maxamillion?
<cellofellow> I saw him yesterday. and on jabber too.
<cellofellow> he's offline ATM.
<highvoltage> j1mc: yep
<j1mc> was he heading up the welcome centre?
<cellofellow> I thought it was Radomir here. (If we are using real names. ;) )
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: dialog like in books, you know, also some narration and maybe even plot
<highvoltage> him and cody somersville, iirc
<cellofellow> Don't know about that. Perhaps so.
<cellofellow> Cody's been in the hospital or something.
<highvoltage> oh yes, indeed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/XubuntuWelcomeCenter
<j1mc> cellofellow: yes.  :(  i hope he's ok.
<cellofellow> I think I can juice up the Welcome Centre if I find time. My family and I are going to England this week, will be gone for three.
<cellofellow> I currently have some Home LAN admin issues too.
<j1mc> i am not an expert, but it looks like the UI is off to a decent start.  i would be willing to help write for the welcome centre.
<j1mc> sounds like we're looking at feisty+1 for this?
<cellofellow> Maybe
<cellofellow> (I think Feisty+1 should be Groovy Gazelle.)
* j1mc thinks grande giraffe
<cellofellow> both cool.
<j1mc> hehe  :)
<highvoltage> geeky gazelle
<j1mc> hehehe
<cellofellow> Grande Giraffe sounds big. Groovy Gazelle sounds cool and fast.
* j1mc pings mark shuttleworth to ask which he prefers.  ;-)
<j1mc> so . . .   sounds like we need to get in touch with the welcome centre devs.
<cellofellow> hey, jmak is online
<j1mc> oh, cool...
<cellofellow> Gtalk, I just IM'd him.
<j1mc> thanks.
<j1mc> cellofellow: did he respond?
<cellofellow> not yet
<cellofellow> he must be busy.
<cellofellow> *wave*
<j1mc> hello, Jmak!
<Jmak> Hi
<j1mc> howdy.  thanks for stopping by.
<Jmak> What's going on
<cellofellow> Nothing really. Might we ask how the artwork is going?
<j1mc> so far we have briefly discussed documentation, working with edubuntu, and also spent some time talking about the welcome centre.
<j1mc> . . . so now would be a good time for artwork.  :)
<Jmak> Everything is already done
<j1mc> i must say that the default wallpaper has grown on me.
<Jmak> How so?
<j1mc> at first i thought it was a bit too dark or rich, and i thought something glass-ier might look better, but now i like it.
<j1mc> just one person's opinion.
<cellofellow> Jmak: how about my face-browser-enabled login screen idea?
<j1mc> Jmak: there are some new icon sets available in the repos.  have you given any of them a try?
<Jmak> What repos?
<j1mc> well, i'm not sure if they're "new" but they are new to being in the repos.
<j1mc> i'll check . . .
<Jmak> I am also working on an orange version of the tango
<cellofellow> Isn't that already? Tangerine?
<Jmak> Tangerein is too oragne
<Jmak> Mine is more brownish
<Jmak> And i also have an aluminium version
<j1mc> gnome-icon-theme-gartoon tangerine-icon-theme gnome-extra-icons gnome-humility-icon-theme gnome-icon-theme-blankon gnome-icon-theme-dlg-neu gnome-icon-theme-gperfection2 gnome-icon-theme-nuovo gnome-icon-theme-suede
<j1mc> those are new to me from the repos, anyway.
<j1mc> i just did an "apt-cache search icon --names-only"
<cellofellow> perhaps we can provide overall "themes". You seem to like either Blue or Gray. I like green myself.
<Jmak> I know the nuovo and the neu, i check out the rest
<Jmak> Green icons?
<j1mc> Jmak: there are a few others, too.  those are just what i picked out.
<cellofellow> never seen any, I just like green desktops.
<Jmak> Everythin is better than the blue tango
<cellofellow> someone must have packaged a bunch of icons for debian.
<j1mc> Jmak: i haven't done a thorough test, but using some of those as my icon set doesn't convert *all* of my icons to the selected settings.
<cellofellow> that means they aren't quite complete.
<Jmak> I like the green themes as well for feisty +
<j1mc> cellofellow: might it mean that xfce looks for icons to be in a specific file hierarchy, and that it doesn't always match up with gnome??
<Jmak> Most icon sets are incomplate
<cellofellow> I do like the Gcezanne icons you linked to on the mailing lists once, and they work great for ROX, but not enough icons in the right places for full XFCE.
<j1mc> Jmak: do gnome and xfce use the same file tree structure to store icons?
<cellofellow> XFCE uses the Tango standard for icon locations, I think. right?
<Jmak> There is a nice Gcezanne one of my favorite too.
<TheSheep_> xfce has some icons named differently -- there are symbolic links to amend that] 
<cellofellow> can't we all just settle on the gnome or tango standard please?
<j1mc> welcome, PuMpErNiCkLe
<PuMpErNiCkLe> yo
<TheSheep_> cellofellow: agreed :)
<j1mc> cellofellow: is that a rhetorical question?  :)
<Jmak> Blue tango is very dull
<cellofellow> I thought Tango was more than just an iconset, it was also a icon tree standard wannabe.
<cellofellow> j1mc: sort of.
* highvoltage quite likes blue tango
<cellofellow> I like Firefox themes that match or look like the native iconset. I can do that with Tango but not others.
<vinze> Hey
<cellofellow> Could we make a complementary Firefox theme too?
<cellofellow> perhaps not for Feisty, but next time.
<Jmak> There is a tango icon set for firefox
<TheSheep_> better make firefox use the system icons and theem ;)
* highvoltage agrees strongly with TheSheep_ 
<cellofellow> Trouble is Firefox doesn't acces the system icons.
<cellofellow> you have to make a firefox theme addon.
<highvoltage> can't the theme contain symlinks to the system icons?
<highvoltage> (an add-on theme, that is)
<cellofellow> themes are sort of self-contained.
<cellofellow> the default firefox theme uses the system GTK colors, it just has its own icons.
<PuMpErNiCkLe> Also, they're not just icons - themes cover other aspects of the appearance, iirc.
<cellofellow> yeah, I think we're talking about icons right now. We settled on a murrina GTK theme right?
<Jmak> Great then we have to add the murrina configurator as well
<Jmak> That will be a big success
<Jmak> Everyone is going to like it
<cellofellow> is the Murrina engine package in the repos yet?
<Jmak> I think so
<cellofellow> not here in Edgy, I have to hunt it down on the web.
<Jmak> I find the author web site for you
<PuMpErNiCkLe> It's in the Feisty repos.
<cellofellow> I use it already, it's ok jmak.
<vinze> I'll be back in a sec
<vinze> Just testing Herd 5 :P
<vinze> There was en error burning it
<_MMA_> Ubuntu Studio also uses murrine for its engine. We got it in.
<cellofellow> cool then
<j1mc> the murrine engine allows easy customization of the theme, right?
<_MMA_> .51 is in.
<j1mc> of murrine-based themes. . .
<_MMA_> With the configurator.
<j1mc> is the configurator in the repos?
<Jmak> Yes, you need the configurator
<cellofellow> haven't tried the configurator yet.
<_MMA_> I havnt messed with that much myself.
<_MMA_> I did ours by hand.
<_MMA_> I dont think thats in the repos.
<Jmak> The confugurator is not in the repo you can get it from the authour website
* j1mc answers his own question:  no.  :)
* _MMA_ looks at the new queue.
<Jmak> Thsi is the author web site
<Jmak> http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/download.php
<j1mc> Jmak: do you think it would be a good idea to include the configurator for feisty+1?
<gpocentek> _MMA_: do we have Murrine themes in the repos
<gpocentek> ?
<Jmak> In feisty
<_MMA_> gpocentek: I think there are a couple.
<TheSheep_> none
<_MMA_> Our art packages didnt make the freeze. :(
<TheSheep_> there is OranSun in feisty
<j1mc> TheSheep_ is correct, we just have the engine.
<TheSheep_> but I think it's in a separate repositorium
<j1mc> _MMA_ your art package?
<_MMA_> j1mc: This is OT but all the Ubuntu Studio art.
<_MMA_> We struggled a little with the packages.
<j1mc> _MMA_: :(
<_MMA_> We'll host it on the site.
<_MMA_> All the apps made it though.
<j1mc> well, any other art-related subjects for anyone?
<j1mc> any other topics?  :)
<j1mc> anything that anyone would like to bring up?
<TheSheep_> web site?
<j1mc> TheSheep_: yes?
<TheSheep_> j1mc: actually, no, it's good :)
<j1mc> vincent has been helpful in providing updates about my ISO tests.  :)  to me, it meeds cody's criteria that it be clean, warm, and fuzzy. :)
<j1mc> anything else?
<j1mc> i will get a few notes up on the meeting  wiki about our conversations here today.
<j1mc> anyone know how / if these meetings are logged?
* j1mc didn't log anything from irssi.
<TheSheep_> there is ubuntulog here...
<j1mc> !ubuntulog
<j1mc> TheSheep_: can you access it?  or let me know how to?
<TheSheep_> j1mc: no, no idea where it logs :/
<j1mc> hehe  ok.  hmmm...
<j1mc> i see a link up at the top here, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/
<Seveas> /msg ubotu logs
<j1mc> thanks, all.
<Seveas> :)
<TheSheep_> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<TheSheep_> :)
<cellofellow> well, gtg
<j1mc> thanks, all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Mar 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Mar 23:00 UTC: IRC Operators | 20 Mar 18:00 UTC: Community Council | 21 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Mar 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Mar 08:00 UTC: MOTU
<F0> anyone hwere
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-03-18
<DaBomb> hi RoninX341
<etank> howdy DaBomb
<RoninX341> howdy DaBomb
<RoninX341> meant to do that from this window
<DaBomb> lol
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 20 Mar 02:00: Kernel Team | 20 Mar 10:00: IRC Operators | 21 Mar 05:00: Community Council | 21 Mar 23:00: Edubuntu | 23 Mar 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Mar 18:00: MOTU
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-03-10
<mruiz> @schedule Santiago
<andrea-bs> mruiz: the bot is a bit slow at this time
<mruiz> thanks andrea-bs ;-)
<andrea-bs> mruiz: you should wait 30 minutes or use timeanddate.com
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Santiago: 12 Mar 17:00: Server Team | 19 Mar 17:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 17:00: Server Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-03-11
<emgent> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 19 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14 Mar 21:00 UTC: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team
<Keybuk> mdz: ping?
<mdz> Keybuk: I am on a conference call
<mdz> Keybuk: and I doubt we can expect sabdfl
<Keybuk> the one item to discuss today is your own, Tracker :-)
<mdz> Keybuk: there is another, actually, which is also mine
<Keybuk> I do not see that one?
<Keybuk> well, let me introduce the first item and see if anybody would like to discuss it
<Keybuk> Tracker consumes a lot of resource, it makes the system slow and unresponsive, and isn't yet useful enough to counter that
<Keybuk> the new version makes some improvement, but it's a small step across a large chasm
<Keybuk> the suggestion is to disable tracker by default for 8.04
<Keybuk> and assumedly remove the deskbar-applet by default too
<Keybuk> seb128: thoughts?
<Keybuk> ...
<seb128> Keybuk: though one, I don't use tracker a lot but I can't say how much that's true for our userbase
<seb128> I would like to get user feedback on whether the new version makes things better (it's supposed to pause when user use the keyboard or mouse)
<seb128> and maybe that's worth to change the default settings from faster indexing to low ressources use
<pochu> I've just got a mail from bug 144434 with good feedback wrt 0.6.6. Don't know whether that's a general case or not though
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 144434 in tracker "ignored paths and file patterns should not only be ignored while indexing but also when searching" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144434
<Keybuk> I don't really have any opinion there
<Keybuk> and this is going to be difficult without mdz
<mdz> I'm sorry
<mdz> I'm almost finished here
<seb128> do we have some way to do user pools to know how many of them find tracker useful for example?
<pochu> there's ubuntuforums' polls...
<mc44> you could let people vote on brainstorm.ubuntu :)
<mdz> Keybuk: I'm finished now
<mdz> I have pretty bad experiences with tracker
<stgraber> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/46/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/278/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3512/
<mdz> on my desktop, it seems to reindex continuously even when I don't do anything
<seb128> mdz: did you open bugs about that? how responsive upstream has been?
<mdz> seb128: I have talked with jaimemcc and Keybuk about the various issues I have had
<mdz> jaimemcc has been very responsive
<seb128> you still have those using 0.6.6?
<mdz> he usually says that the next version will fix everything :-)
<seb128> right
<mdz> I also see crashes from tracker-extract
<mdz> and the programs it calls
<mdz> like imagemagick
<pochu> 0.6.6 is supposed not to index when you move the mouse or type in the keyboard, isn't that working?
<Keybuk> I had a fun one where imagemagick crashed and left a gif file in my home directory
<Keybuk> which tracker promptly attempted to index, spawned imagemagick, that crashed, and updated that gif file
<Keybuk> ad infinitum
<mdz> it also seems to read very large binary files in my home directory
<mdz> which aren't useful to index
<Keybuk> pochu: hard to tell; I know that today, with latest updates, reboot, etc.
<mdz> e.g. backing up a DVD causes it to scan all 7+ GB of data, even though there aren't any keywords in it
<seb128> Keybuk: I think that's supposed to be fixed in the new version
<Keybuk> my laptop is subjectively much slower and laggy with tracker running than without
<seb128> my gut feeling was that tracker is not that useful
<Keybuk> tracker could be incredibly useful
<mdz> I think it's only useful to people who discover it and want to use it
<Keybuk> or at least, a metadata index of the filesystem
<seb128> but I changed nautilus to build without it one week ago and I got some user complains on the bug
<Keybuk> but I think that the current implementation is just too damned heavy
<mdz> which is fine, except that everyone pays a cost for it even if they don't use it
<mdz> one suggestion would be to enable indexing the first time the user tries to search
<mdz> isn't that what windows does?
<Keybuk> mdz: I think you have to explicitly turn on search in Windows
<seb128> no idea what windows does, I didn't know it was doing indexing
<jcastro> in vista the indexer is on ootb
<pochu> the tracker-extract crashes are due setrlimit, which sends signals to the process which dump the core and thus apport will pop up
<pochu> I've added a hook so that tracker tells you the reason and they aren't reported. That's not ideal though
<mdz> how about we enumerate some options
<mdz> - disable indexing by default
<mdz> - don't install tracker by default
<mdz> - leave things as they are
<Keybuk> what's the difference between disabling indexing and watching?
<pochu> watching will keep indexing after the initial index IIRC
<Keybuk> indexing can be off but watching on
<mdz> I think indexing means index on login or similar
<Keybuk> does that mean anything, or is it just a missing set_sensitive(FALSE) ?
<mdz> and watching is incremental (inotify)
<mdz> but I haven't read the code and am guessing
<seb128> Keybuk: what does watching without indexing do?
<mdz> seb128: I think that's what he's asking
<Keybuk> seb128: with Watching but not Indexing, the last thing trackerd says is "starting indexing"
<Keybuk> but admittedly doesn't seem to do much else
<mdz> I just tried disabling indexing (which caused trackerd to be restarted and the status icon to disappear) and re-enabling it (which didn't cause the icon to reappear)
<mdz> I think tracker is progressing very well, but just isn't on track to be ready for 8.04
<mdz> it will take some time to get there
<pochu> EnableIndexing=BOOLEAN
<pochu> Enable or disable the indexer.
<Keybuk> disabling indexing seems the right course to me, then it's trivial to turn back on if users want it
<pochu> EnableWatching=BOOLEAN
<pochu> Enables or disables watching of directories, i.e. re-index files when
<pochu> they change.
<Keybuk> and it might even be easy to enable it on search
<pochu> hopefully that makes things clearer :)
<pochu> (that's from tracker.cfg(5) btw)
<mdz> Keybuk: sabdfl inbound
<seb128> ok, so let's keep tracker installed but don't use it by default?
<sabdfl> 'allo 'allo, all
<mdz> seb128: if indexing is disabled and the user tries to do a search, will it let them easily enable it?
<mdz> sabdfl: topic is tracker for 8.04, go/no-go
<sabdfl> is that the only matter at hand? nothing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<seb128> hey sabdfl
<mdz> sabdfl: when we're done with that, it's time to talk about sparc
<sabdfl> mdz, could you paste me the conversation to date, or mail it?
<mdz> sabdfl: will mail
<sabdfl> thanks
<mdz> sabdfl: done
<seb128> mdz: I think it's autoactivated for the session using dbus activation but that's not a setting change, so it'll not be available after next login, should be easy to change if we want to though
<mdz> seb128: that seems like the best compromise
<mdz> we want to make it available to people who use it, but without intruding on users who don't know it exists
<seb128> how do we expect users to use it though?
<seb128> using the tracker interface from the menu?
<seb128> or do we still want to list the deskbar applet choice?
<mdz> seb128: the deskbar item is pretty unintrusive
<mdz> it's just one in a long list of search shortcuts
<mdz> (I wish it were more prominent, in fact)
<seb128> well, the issue is still that user might just try it without knowing what they do and enable tracker
<seb128> is that alright, or do we want to prevent that too?
<sabdfl> is the deskbar applet useful without tracker?
<seb128> sabdfl: I was wondering if it's really useful too, I don't use it personally
<seb128> it's impact a bit on login speed but isn't too much of a nuisance otherwise
<mdz> sabdfl: it does web searches etc.
<seb128> and there is quite some user enjoy it apparently
<seb128> enjoying
<sabdfl> i like the meme of web-search-without-web, but i don't know if we can yet do that justice
<sabdfl> what is the UI like to "turn on indexing of your files" if we disable it by default?
<Keybuk> System -> Prefs -> Search and Indexing -> Enable
<seb128> we have a system, preferences, tracker menu item
<seb128> what Keybuk wrote ;-)
<sabdfl> ok, then i'm +1 disabling tracker by default, and +1 leaving deskbar in place for the moment
<Keybuk> aol
<seb128> I'm not a firefox user but the deskbar applet changes mentioned it not being compatible with firefox 3, did anybody try using it on hardy?
<seb128> it impacts on login speed and I'm not sure how useful it is without firefox bookmarks, etc integration
<Keybuk> I'm +1 for disabling indexing by default
<Keybuk> and happy to leave deskbar-applet to seb's discretion
<mdz> I agree
<seb128> does anybody know if we got good press feedback in gutsy for using deskbar?
<mdz> I didn't read much which highlighted it
<mdz> but the functionality will still be there and easy to enable
<seb128> if it doesn't work with firefox I would disable it
<seb128> one of the top complain I read about gutsy was the login speed
<seb128> and I'm trying to reduce this one
<mdz> seb128: do you think upstream will understand why we felt this was necessary, and that we want to continue to support and work with them?
<seb128> speaking about tracker or deskbar?
<seb128> I don't think it'll be an issue in either case anyway
<seb128> I don't think deskbar is enabled on other distros and it's not upstream and they don't expect it especially
<seb128> and I don't think that we will have issues with tracker upstreams if we don't let it run by default, they might be a bit disappointed but it'll still be installed and it's true that it lacks desktop integration they can probably understand the issue
<sabdfl> we are certainly helping them progress towards ubiquity
<Keybuk> ok, I think we have a consensus here
<Keybuk> mdz: next topic?
<mdz> the sparc port
<Keybuk> continue...
<mdz> so, the sparc port to date has been maintained by Canonical as a commercial project
<mdz> which will not extend to 8.04 LTS
<mdz> as such, I propose that it transition to an unofficial port, a la powerpc
<sabdfl> +1
<Keybuk> +1
<mdz> +1
<mdz> any questions?
<mdz> any other business?
<seb128> mdz: will somebody mails the lists about those decisions?
<mdz> seb128: I will
<seb128> ok, thanks, no other question ;-)
<mdz> ok, then, thanks all
<mdz> it has been a long day :-)
<sabdfl> thanks all
<DPic> Hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-03-12
<mruiz> @schedule Santiago
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Santiago: 12 Mar 17:00: Server Team | 14 Mar 16:00: MOTU | 14 Mar 17:00: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 17:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 17:00: Server Team
<calc> hi
<ogra> yawn
<evand> hello
<TheMuso> Greetings.
 * ogra feels like sh*t
 * asac waves (in time)
<bryce> heya
<cjwatson> we are out of coffee! argh
<asac> lol
 * cjwatson attempts to survive on juice alone
 * ArneGoetje waves
<ogra> hard thing
<TheMuso> cjwatson: I've always found a morning walk gets me woken up. :)
<cjwatson> bit late :)
<TheMuso> Yeah I know, but nevertheless, its the suggestino that counts.
<TheMuso> suggestino
<TheMuso> ugh
<cjwatson> ta :)
<TheMuso> suggestion
<ogra> el suggestino ?
<cjwatson> so just waiting for doko
<ogra> he was in distro ...
<calc> evand: early enough for you? :)
<TheMuso> ogra: yeah slip of the fingers.... twice.
<cjwatson> doko: ping
<ogra> TheMuso, sounds like some kind of southamerican pimp :)
<doko> good morning
<TheMuso> ogra: I know.
<TheMuso> :)
<evand> calc: pff, a cakewalk
<cjwatson> aha, welcome
<cjwatson> right, I only have two activity reports this week; I hope that the rest are stuck in a mail queue (I think my mail reception doesn't work so well overnight for some reason)
 * cjwatson blinks and realises he clearly can't count
 * TheMuso saw a lot on the ml./
<ArneGoetje> I just submitted mine a few minutes ago... sorry for that
 * ogra just sent his ... with wrong date first place ...
<calc> cjwatson: more coffee?
<cjwatson> ah, I counted ogra twice and made it nine without bothering to check all the names :) sorry Steve
<slangasek> :-)
<cjwatson> ok, somebody else will have to say if there are agenda items in activity reports
<ogra> yeah, we're easy to mix up :P
<ArneGoetje> 2 in my one
<cjwatson> so I wanted to talk first about scim, since there has been a lot of user confusion about scim accidentally being enabled for them, and I want to make sure we have a clear plan to ensure this is fixed for beta
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: it is fixed already
<cjwatson> at the moment it looks like live CDs and fresh installs don't have it switched on, but that users sometimes get it enabled on upgrade
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: somebody reported breakage on upgrade just yesterday
<asac> i don't know if i forcefully uninstalled it, but its not enabled for me anymore. it was rather annoying a week ago.
<ArneGoetje>  * scim enabled by default for non-CJK locales: This has been resolved
<ArneGoetje> with the latest scim and scim-bridge updates. On a current Live CD the
<ArneGoetje> old behaviour, where scim is by default disabled for non-CJK locales can
<ArneGoetje> be observed. Upgrading from Gutsy to Hardy should work fine also,
<ArneGoetje> however I haven't tested it yet. For users who followed the Hardy
<ArneGoetje> development manual interaction is required though. Calling
<ArneGoetje> Language-selector, unchecking the checkbox and doing a re-login should
<ArneGoetje> be sufficient.
<calc> i had to go back to gutsy for my vmware session for other reason so i didn't see if it got fixed for my issue
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: ah, is that a change since yesterday?
<calc> but it hasn't seemed to have affect my two hardy systems
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: no, I updated the packages a few days ago.
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: there have been reports since then; the evidence suggests that upgrades are still broken
<cjwatson> somebody just yesterday reported upgrading from alpha-6 to current and having scim enabled
<ogra> i didnt have any trace of scim on yesterdays classmate image
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: for users who follow Hardy for a longer period, manual interaction is required to fix this. Language-selector -> uncek the checkbox -> re-login should fix it.
<slangasek> well, presumably neither I nor the other bug reporter followed the "calling language-selector" step?
<ogra> i mean of it getting in my way ... its installed indeed
<slangasek> OTOH, where *is* language-selector? I don't seem to have it on my system
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: Live CD from Mar 9 had it fixed already
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: OK, I'll be happy if gutsy->hardy (and ideally also dapper->hardy) are tested for this before beta
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: could you organise that?
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: System -> Administration -> Language Support
<cjwatson> slangasek: we should add Arne's comment above to the release notes
<slangasek> cjwatson: ack
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: will do.
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: is there any way to sanely spot the breakage and revert it without also overwriting user customisations?
<cjwatson> three's been a lot of noise on #ubuntu-devel, #distro, #canonical, well just about everywhere about it
<cjwatson> Scott has been taking a lot of heat for it too
<cjwatson> (since everyone assumes it's a desktop thing)
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: not really... see my comments in bug #199030
<slangasek> override the alternative on upgrade only if it's set to the expected value and we're upgrading from the problematic version?
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: short explanation:
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: some time in the past the function to enable/disable scim in language-selector broke and the link in /etc/X11/xinit/xinout.d/ for all_ALL was set by default.
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: as we cannot detect which user enabled it on purpose and who didn't, we cannot fix it by script, can we?
<ogra> you could ask
<slangasek> by "set by default", you mean "update-alternatives was misused from a maintainer script"?
<slangasek> or something else?
<ogra> like the directory conversion tool does
<ogra> its ugly but helps
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: I'm not sure what caused it actually.. I just remember that I couldn't uncheck the checkbox anymore...
<cjwatson> I'm not convinced that all these users had ever seen the language-selector UI
<slangasek> I hadn't :)
<cjwatson> it feels much more like an update-alternatives accident to me
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: as I said, I'm not sure what caused the breakage...
<calc> it affected my vmware image when i hadn't done anything with it, of course it wasn't a local fresh install (got it off the site)
<cjwatson> that means we need to be extra-careful about testing it
<calc> it was a image that was upgraded from gutsy
<cjwatson> if you aren't sure what caused it, it doesn't seem that you can say that it happened during hardy development
<cjwatson> and we should probably put some effort into tracking down what *did* cause it
<cjwatson> report is that alpha-6 -> current reproduces it, so perhaps we should start there
<ArneGoetje> the bug was triggered recently with the seeding of im-switch. when im-switch is not installed on the system, scim can't be started at all. that's why it hadn't surfaced earlier.
<cjwatson> indeed
<cjwatson> but it's a very serious problem when it does show up, so it is our responsibility to understand it as much as we can
<slangasek>   * debian/scim.postinst: disable u-a calls for all_ALL; remove the
<slangasek>     scim-bridge entries again... they should go into the scim-bridge package.
<cjwatson> while I'm happy with "hardy users have to do some magic to recover" if that's necessary, it would be better for that not to be required
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: that's from the most recent changelog on scim; what was the u-a call being disabled?
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: that was the fix, yes
<cjwatson> also, was the removal of those alternatives from postinst accompanied by a prerm change to remove existing alternatives on upgrade?
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: "what" was the u-a call being disabled? :)
<cjwatson> hmm, apparently those alternatives are unconditionally removed on upgrade
<cjwatson> slangasek: it's the one that's commented out in scim.postinst at the moment
<cjwatson>         #ua_inst all_ALL scim  0
<cjwatson>         #ua_inst all_ALL scim-immodule 0
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: before it was set to scim-bridge, as well as additiinal entries to scim and scim-immodule, but with lower priority. that was amistake
<slangasek> ok, those are just removals of calls to ua_inst(), which currently DTRT
<cjwatson> oh, no, I'm wrong
<slangasek> so it's not the culprit for the manual u-a
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: we have some empirical evidence that update-alternatives has ended up in manual mode for the xinput-all_ALL alternative
<cjwatson> in the buggy cases
<cjwatson> this class of problem is traditionally an absolute bastard to track down, but usually worth it
<cjwatson> (and sometimes is a bug in update-alternatives, which is one of the least reliable programs in the dpkg toolchain)
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: they will also be removed in prerm
<cjwatson> worst case, as ogra suggests, a debconf question on upgrade might be the least ugly solution
<slangasek> hrm, I don't remember if u-a --remove DT"R"T if called for an alternative in manual mode that's pointed at the entry you're removing
<slangasek> so the alternative was reported to be wrong in the alpha-6 liveCD?
<cjwatson>     if ($mode eq "manual" and $state ne "expected" and (map { $hits += $apath eq $_ } @versions) and $hits and $linkname eq $apath) {
<cjwatson>         &pr(_g("Removing manually selected alternative - switching to auto mode"));
<slangasek> should be traceable in that case
<cjwatson>         $mode = "auto";
<cjwatson>     }
<cjwatson> it's supposed to, at least
<cjwatson> I'm not sure if it was desktop or alternate, the report wasn't detailed enough
<slangasek> cjwatson: well, that means that every package upgrade resets the value...
<slangasek> since they're all being unregistered in prerm and reregistered in postinst
<cjwatson> hah, yes, apparently
<cjwatson> this is one of the broken modes of update-alternatives use
<slangasek> yep
<cjwatson> (which is UNDOCUMENTED, gah policy rant)
<slangasek> so I'll dig into the livefs and see if I can confirm the broken alternative there
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 199030 in scim "Can't close SCIM" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199030
<doko_> fixing bugs in update-alternatives for hardy+1 would be nice ...
 * cjwatson would just like to say http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=71621
<ubotu> Debian bug 71621 in debian-policy "No policy on calling update-alternatives (was Re: update-alternatives)" [Wishlist,Fixed]
<cjwatson> (which Manoj closed out of hand)
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> you could reopen it now that Russ is a policy maintainer :-)
<cjwatson> I think I might
<cjwatson> slangasek: could you continue to work with Arne to try to nail this down?
<slangasek> yes
<cjwatson> great, thanks
<cjwatson>  * Beta status
<cjwatson> I know we aren't quite frozen yet - anything interesting to report?
<TheMuso> Wubi installs onto FAT32 partitions are currently a non-event.
<cjwatson> I wonder if those should just plain be blacklisted
<cjwatson> "doctor, it hurts when I do this"
<slangasek> beta is the milestone where aaaaaall the bugs have landed that weren't critical for the alphas
<TheMuso> Spent time with Agostino today debugging a few things, but still an issue somewhere, where abouts I'm not sure yet.
 * ogra is heavily disappointed by ram usage of the i810 driver on the classmate ... 
<slangasek> so there's some triaging to be done, but more importantly there's plenty of bugfixing we should be doing too :)
<TheMuso> cjwatson: Sounds sane to me, since NTFs allows for much larger files, and we can now write to it anyways.
<ogra> i tried the intel driver by accident, it takes over 30M less reserved ram :(
<slangasek> (.oO wubi to umsdos...)
<TheMuso> slangasek: Yes, installing onto FAT32 bails out on first attempted boot from the loop mounted FS.
<slangasek> TheMuso: oh, sorry, I thought I was making a umsdos joke
<cjwatson> that is rather a lot of bugs
<calc> ugh no umsdos die die die
<evand> ZipSlack will make a comeback someday ;)
<ogra> yay
<calc> umsdos on fat16... really good way to eat up all clusters
<cjwatson> bug 193842 looks complex, and better sooner than later if it's going to land
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 193842 in acpi-support "Please sponsor cherrypicked fixes for acpi-support into Hardy" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193842
<ogra> are we sure these scripts are executed at all with the new power management structure ?
 * ogra knows modules he lists in /etc/default/acpi-support are definately not unloaded anymore
<slangasek> well, I know things aren't firing that I'm expecting to on my Thinkpad
<slangasek> but I'm not sure whether that's a kernel issue
<ogra> all i know is that with hardy the PM structure changed a lot leaving everything to hal, having mjg59 taking a look at that bug would be a good thing imho
<calc> btw are systems supposed to make noise now on sleep/wake?
<cjwatson> it wouldn't hurt, but since he's formally left the project we cannot rely on him to do it
<calc> i noticed my laptop started doing that a while back
<doko_> had a lot of problems with the lcd brightness not coming up again after sleeping
<doko_> but current kernel works
<ogra> calc, it does that on lid open/close as well ... gpm doesnt have a fine grained scheme for it and just makes noise for everything or nothing
<calc> ogra: ah
<slangasek> calc: there's a g-p-m change, if you look under preferences there's "Use sound to notify in event of an error"... it seems to believe that everything is an error
<dholbach> acpi-support has ~18 bugs with patches attached: http://daniel.holba.ch/really-fix-it
<ogra> i had disabled it in the past because i didnf fid it suitable without being able to tag events for noise specifically
<cjwatson> ok, we could probably keep on looking at ACPI bugs all day, but I gathered there were a few other agenda items
<calc> slangasek: yea it always claims my system doesn't suspend properly but it seems to afaict
<slangasek> who else do we have that's versed in the current power management structure then?
<slangasek> pitti?
<ogra> slangasek, ted does the frontend and matthew the acpi and parts of the kernel stuff
<cjwatson> pitti is usually a good start for matters of hardware-from-userspace
<bryce> it suddenly got awfully quiet - is this thing still on?  *pff pff*
<ogra> for hardcore kernel things amit is also a good resource
<cjwatson> and as ogra says Ted has been taking on gnome-power-manager maintenance
<cjwatson> bryce: there's been pretty steady conversation for the last 30+ minutes
<bryce> weird, irc was being hangy.  seems better now
<dholbach> g-p-m has 14 bugs open on http:/daniel.holba.ch/really-fix-it - if we can't review them, maybe we should forward them upstream and see what hughsie says
<cjwatson> could somebody volunteer to review and sponsor that acpi-support change, please?
<cjwatson> I suspect that, if it's any good, Daniel Hahler may end up as the de facto acpi-support maintainer ;-)
<slangasek> I've already followed up to an acpi-support sponsor request, because some of the proposed changes affect my hardware
<slangasek> I can follow through
<cjwatson> much appreciated
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: you said you had some other agenda items?
<ArneGoetje>  * There is a crash report for scim-bridge which has lots of duplicates
<ArneGoetje> by now. However, I cannot reliably reproduce it. People claim
<ArneGoetje> scim-bridge crashes on startup. However, on a recent Live CD and also on
<ArneGoetje> my local system, there is no crash.
<ArneGoetje> When installing the Live CD from 3 days ago, after reboot, I activated
<ArneGoetje> scim support in Language-Selector and did a reboot. After then I opened
<ArneGoetje> a terminal and toggeled scim repeatedly by pressing crtl+space multiple
<ArneGoetje> times. The crash happened once and never again. Also inputting complex
<ArneGoetje> scripts with scim worked. So, as I cannot reliably reproduce this crash,
<ArneGoetje> I'm asking for help.
<slangasek> no apport retracer data on it
<slangasek> ?
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: the bug has apport data attached.
<slangasek> bug #?
<ArneGoetje> bug #199592
 * slangasek whimpers
<slangasek> that looks like conflicting libstdc++ versions to me
<ArneGoetje> So, basically my question is, why it happens only in some situations, and whether it really is a scim-bridge bug or libscim, which is in the scim package, or somewhere else...
<ArneGoetje> I noticed there were some linstdc++ updates in the past days...
<slangasek> I'm thinking of the class of crash that's caused by having two different libstdc++ sonames loaded in memory at the same time
 * ArneGoetje has no idea about that
<slangasek> it classically affects XIM because XIM is one of the few things that's dynamically loaded by a large range of apps, *and* is written in C++
<cjwatson> this is the actual scim-bridge process though, not a random client
<doko_> but even the fglrx driver now uses libstdc++.so.6
<slangasek> right; I don't know for sure that's the same problem here, but it's the first thing I think of when I see unreproducible crashes in a C++ deconstructor
<cjwatson> could of course be a poorly-written destructor
<slangasek> true
<doko_> hmm, when was scim-bridge built the last time?
<slangasek> 6 days ago
<doko_> ok
<cjwatson> scim::Module::unload is not exactly trivial ...
<cjwatson> calls a bunch of other stuff, does dlclose, etc.
<cjwatson> but the crash doesn't always seem to be there, either
<cjwatson> it might be worth running scim-bridge under valgrind
<cjwatson> doko_: could you help Arne out with this?
<doko_> cjwatson: trying, but probably not before Tuesday
<cjwatson> ok, if the other problems with scim being started by default get fixed, then it will only affect CJK users (for whom presumably it isn't a regression)
<ArneGoetje> for CJK users it's expected behaviour
<cjwatson> a crash is not expected behaviour
<cjwatson> without loss of generality
<ArneGoetje> I mean scim being started by default :P
<cjwatson> right, but I didn't :-)
<ArneGoetje> got it
<cjwatson> I meant that the crash has presumably been around for a while
<cjwatson> I'll un-private that bug and stick it on the hardy list
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<cjwatson> any other business?
<asac> two quick questions:
<TheMuso> Yes, a quick one re minutes.
<TheMuso> asac: go
<asac> NetworkManager: does anyone experience issues since 0.6.6? i am especially interested in ipw2X00, madwifi and broadcom things.
<cjwatson> broadcom seems OK for me so far
<doko_> cjwatson: some things ...
 * ogra is very happy with it on his laptop and on the classmate
 * TheMuso hasn't used his ipw2100 for a fair while, but will try with the latest daily.
<ogra> (laptop == broadcom as well)
<asac> TheMuso: please do
<asac> i dropped a bunch of driver tweaks
<doko_> do we want to have bash-completion installed on the desktop?
<asac> and its hard to judge from bugs if that is just after-upgrade-"noise"
<asac> 2nd. did anyone retrieve my activity report last week?
 * ArneGoetje has ipw2200... will try tonight... (no wireless here right now)
<doko_> some users think so, but others disagree. if it's installed, it is enabled by default
<ogra> doko_, is it big ? does it do any harm sitting on the disk ?
<cjwatson> 3010     Mar 05 Alexander Sack  (  74) [ACTIVITY] Feb 27 - Mar 04 (asac)
<cjwatson> 3069   L Mar 12 Alexander Sack  (  59) [ACTIVITY] Mar 05 - Mar 11
<doko_> no harm on the list
<asac> ArneGoetje: highly appreciated. i have reports about it being broken
<Hobbsee> asac: wfm, ipw3945 (know it's not exactly your target group)
<slangasek> wasn't it installed by default before (as part of bash)?
<ArneGoetje> asac: orz
<doko_> 120k
<cjwatson> doko_: I never wanted it enabled by default in the first place, but considered that I'd lost that battle
 * TheMuso wondered where his useful completion went.
<TheMuso> s/his/the/
<asac> cjwatson: ok thanks. i still didn't get that. just want to be sure because it contained some valuable content about mozilla translations imo
<TheMuso> I can live with not having it by default.
<ogra> doko_, pfft
<doko_> slangasek: yes, but I got tired, never getting any replies from upstream
<ogra> thats nothing
<asac> ok if you could try all the chipsets you have around i would be happy to receive feedback
<ogra> imho we should have it ... its comfortable
<TheMuso> asac: Will keep you posted.
<asac> TheMuso: go
<cjwatson> the only thing that ever concerned me about bash-completion was shell startup time
<doko_> in the case we still want it, I'd like to seed it for desktop, so that people can uninstall it on the server
<calc> asac: not sure if this is expected but it seems nm still drops connection on upgrades
<cjwatson> mainly affecting people like us who start lots of shells
<TheMuso> Ok. re minutes, this is the 4th week I've done it. While I don't mind doing them, I wonder if people would be up for doing 4 weekly stints of minutes, and then moving onto someone else?
<asac> calc: thats expected. i will fix that for final (e.g. don't restart at all)
<calc> asac: ok
<doko_> ok, but the lots of you can then remove or disable it
<ogra> cjwatson, well, give that the terminal we use already grabs 20-25M and is slow anyway, who cares ...
<ogra> *given
<asac> not restarting is the official advice from upstream :(
<cjwatson> ogra: might be the terminal *you* use :-P
<ogra> cjwatson, i use the one *we* install by default :)
<doko_> any disagreement to seed bash-completion again?
<ogra> the one our users use :)
<cjwatson> doko_: remove/disable> indeed, I do, but still
<cjwatson> doko_: bash-completion is a Recommends at present, so it looks like it can be removed already
<doko_> we can keep it in universe as well
<cjwatson> in fact, I appear not to have it installed, presumably by accident
<cjwatson> ogra: (yeah, this is my one deviation from that rule which I normally do apply to myself)
<doko_> next thing: shorewall - do we want to have this in main?
<cjwatson> I have no objection to bash-completion either being seeded or unseeded; if it is seeded, it should be as a recommends (" * (bash-completion)")
<ogra> i use xterm on the classmate i must admit :)
<cjwatson> hang on, let's serialise these agenda items
<ogra> doko_, i thought that was gone after th discussion a month ago
<cjwatson> 07:58 <TheMuso> Ok. re minutes, this is the 4th week I've done it. While I don't mind doing them, I wonder if people would be up for doing 4 weekly stints of minutes, and then moving onto someone else?
<cjwatson> I have no objection to rotating the secretary job if there are other volunteers
<cjwatson> TheMuso: BTW, as a small tweak, it would be good to have an explicit Actions section at the end with any specific follow-on tasks that have been agreed; I find that useful when it comes to the next meeting
<TheMuso> cjwatson: Ok thanks for feedback.
<cjwatson> would anyone else like to do this after Luke, with the knowledge that it's for a bounded time?
<TheMuso> Ok, I'm quite happy to keep doing them for the time being.
<doko_> I volunteer, but not for the next two weeks
<bryce> I can take May
<cjwatson> thanks, I'm sure even a rotation of three will help; sort it out among yourselves :-)
<cjwatson> doko_: so, shorewall
<cjwatson> as contrasted with ufw, presumably
<doko_> ok, I'll re-add it to the seeds, with a comment
<cjwatson> ... (I didn't think that was a decision)
<doko_> oops
<cjwatson> shorewall was in main up to gutsy, so I certainly have no objection to it being added back
<doko_> once the bashims were fixed it looks rather stable
<cjwatson> you removed it, I see
<cjwatson>   - remove shorewall from server-ship (ufw is in main)
<slangasek> it's not the killer firewall, but ufw isn't today either; and shorewall gives users functionality that ufw doesn't
<doko_> yes, but it's still referenced in Kubuntu hardy
<cjwatson> my gut feeling is that ufw is rather new and relatively untried compared to shorewall, and, while ufw may well turn out to be the future once it's well-integrated, a lot of people will still want to use shorewall for good reasons
<cjwatson> so I think we should ship it
 * ArneGoetje is happily using shorewall on all my machines, including laptop :)
<cjwatson> technically it should be a server team decision, mind you
<doko_> I'll bring it to their attention
<doko_> next: any actions about duplicates/unnecessary files on the CDs?
<cjwatson> but I think it's fine to go for status quo (i.e. ship shorewall, as in gutsy) until they explicitly say otherwise
<cjwatson> which would correspond to "use ufw in all cases, damn your eyes"
<cjwatson> can we carry on discussing duplicates/unnecessary files on the list?
<cjwatson> or perhaps on ubuntu-devel@, since it's currently distro-team@
<cjwatson> just conscious that we're over time
<doko_> fine with me, sending then to u-d
<asac> i have another quick one about seeds: the crash reporter of mozilla upstream builds doesn't work in default installs, because we don't ship ca-certificates. any arguments against shipping them?
<asac> (or make curl depend on ca-certificates)
<cjwatson> I'm sure we used to ship ca-certificates?
<ogra> didnt we ship the before ?
<asac> i think so ... i guess one rdepends got removed from cd
<cjwatson> no objection to shipping them provided that its (crazy) debconf question doesn't get asked by default
<cjwatson> unfortunately I suspect it does get asked by default on upgrades, worth checking its priority
<asac> yes. afaik you don't get asked about that
<asac> hmm ... really? i never saw any question. but maybe thats because the packages wasn't updated for a while
<asac> i can check that
<asac> thanks
<cjwatson> I'm just going on vague memory, I'm afraid
<cjwatson> ca-certificates was in dapper/desktop
<cjwatson> dependency of libcurl3
<cjwatson> apparently it fell out in gutsy
<asac> hmmm ... libcurl3-gnutls has a recommends on it now
<cjwatson> might have to duplicate that recommendation in the seeds, then, until such time as we do recommends-by-default
<asac> yep
<asac> thanks
<cjwatson> which I think fell out of hardy because the ball was in too many people's courts
<cjwatson> ok, 15 minutes over time, so let's adjourn
<cjwatson> thanks all
<TheMuso> Thanks.
<asac> thanks all
<slangasek> thanks
<ogra> thanks
<TheMuso> Minutes will be out tomorrow.
 * asac hugs TheMuso 
<bryce> thanks
<cjwatson> great
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 199592 in scim-bridge "scim-bridge crashed with SIGSEGV in scim::Module::unload()" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199592
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<evand> thanks
<calc> goodnight :)
<cjwatson> sleep well, USians
 * bryce zzz's
<bryce> (early meeting tomorrow)
<evand> heh, thanks
<RichEd> hello ... who's here for the education meeting ?
 * stgraber waves
<RichEd> hi stgraber :)
 * ogra_cmpc waves ... very tired
<ogra_cmpc> only us three ?
<RichEd> well apart from the passive lurkers ... looks like it
<RichEd> let's whip through a tech status then ...
<ogra_cmpc> well, i somewhat lost track with edubuntu the last days, was sitting in a cave and finishing the autobuilder and writing the new installer
 * Hobbsee waves
<ogra_cmpc> on my for fixes i have the edubuntu-addon metatdata ... there is still the xfce entry in there which doesnt do anything anymore
<ogra_cmpc> and te edubuntu entry needs a proper short descritipon ...
<RichEd> ahhh ..
 * RichEd spots the delayed wave from Hobbsee all the way from oz
<Hobbsee> RichEd: :)
<ogra_cmpc> there is still some gfxboot work i didnt manage yet (adding LTSP to the modes menu and somehow find a way to prevent teh addon cd from looking like a install cd if you boot it) ... i was pondering to ask cjwatson for help here
<ogra_cmpc> gfxboot is a beast and takes more time than i want to understand it atm
<ogra_cmpc> s/want/have/
<ogra_cmpc> beyond that the cds should be pretty much in shape
<ogra_cmpc> s/cds/cd/
<ogra_cmpc> :D
<ogra_cmpc> you will have seen me throwing around classmate images ... so classmate is also starting to look pretty well ... better and better every day
<ogra_cmpc> for ltsp i plan a final upload for tonight or tommorw, there are a bunch of bugs with fixes i want to include before we freeze to deep ....
<ogra_cmpc> well, thats about it from the tech side
<ogra_cmpc> i'd like to note that artwork freeze is tomorrow
<RichEd> gimme a sec ... getting power
<ogra_cmpc> which means we'll likely not have anything new in hardy
<ogra_cmpc> and there are a bunch of edubuntu-doc bugs that need a helping hand (not sure if laserjock went over them already)
<RichEd> is that an absolute art final, or is there a sneak it in route i've heard mentioned :)
<ogra_cmpc> the artwork thing is quite bad btw ....
<ogra_cmpc> no official one
<ogra_cmpc> we have an LTS this time
<RichEd> okay  ... and what time tomorrow is the freeze ?
<ogra_cmpc> and that means the doc teams will want to have a fixed UI state for their screenshots etc
<ogra_cmpc> there is no time
<RichEd> so is the end of the day US time acceptable ?
<ogra_cmpc> slangasek is our release manager ... he will call out the freeze at will
<RichEd> i'll hav a word with him ... see how flexible he could be ...
<ogra_cmpc> not sure what time he prefers, but he sits in US westcoast ...
<ogra_cmpc> so rather late tomorrow i guess
<ogra_cmpc> (i also think he"s more concerned about teh beta freeze than about artwork :) they are the same date this time)
<RichEd> great ... even if we polish one of the alternates from the last round ... a different desktop for LTS would be good
<ogra_cmpc> well, i dont see anything i'd like to ship in the alternates
 * RichEd will drive that, and kep ogra_cmpc informed
<ogra_cmpc> else i would have added one already during the dev cycle
<ogra_cmpc> thanks :)
<RichEd> let me touch sides with ideas tomorrow
<RichEd> a couple of classmate questions for you, but i'll grab you later for that ... they are intel device specific
<ogra_cmpc> ok
<RichEd> stgraber: can you give me an update on iTalc ... with comments from ogra_cmpc about the odds of inclusion ?
<ogra_cmpc> its in sinc4e we4eks
<ogra_cmpc> oops
<ogra_cmpc> its in since weeks
<RichEd> 4sure
<RichEd> :)
<RichEd> excellemt
<ogra_cmpc> i reported that three weeks ago or so in the meeting :)
<stgraber> ogra_cmpc: is it on the add-on CD ?
<ogra_cmpc> the client is even installed in the default classmate install now
<RichEd> my head has been bent a bit of late ... may need reminders at times :)
<RichEd> w00t re classmate :)
<ogra_cmpc> stgraber, just in main yet, i havent done the last seed shuffle dance yet
 * RichEd hands an ubuntu noddy badge to stgraber and ogra 
<stgraber> btw, I pinged upstream a bit earlier and he'll see what he can do to give us a patch for the MMX and bug fixes
<ogra_cmpc> do we have a bug with the patch already ? or only the mail you sent me ?
<RichEd> stgraber: is upstream positive about our use of it and inclusion ?
<stgraber> yes and he's helped me quite a lot for it
<stgraber> ogra_cmpc: only the mail
<RichEd> great ... cc me in the next mail to him, and i will extend our thanks
<RichEd> please :)
<ogra_cmpc> ok, we need a bug for pitti/slangasek then
<stgraber> RichEd: sure
<stgraber> ogra_cmpc: ok, I'll open one with the same info has I emailed you
<ogra_cmpc> thanks a lot
<RichEd> okay stgraber / ogra_cmpc / Hobbsee ... any other urgent issues ?
 * RichEd does not have anything else to raise today ... need to get work done for meetings and freeze tomorrow
<ogra_cmpc> same here
<Hobbsee> RichEd: if you've got edubuntu-specific stuff to freeze, which doesn't affect the rest, you should be OK
<stgraber> nothing from me
<ogra_cmpc> and i had a 8am meeting already
<RichEd> ogra_cmpc: can i grab you at the top of the hour for 15 / 20 mins ?
<ogra_cmpc> (after 3h of sleep ...)
<ogra_cmpc> sure
<RichEd> anti-theft and other fiddly bits ... need an update
<ogra_cmpc> lets see how much i can squeeze out of my brain still :)
 * ogra_cmpc is curious about the fiddly bits 
<RichEd> ogra_cmpc: if we add our two brains together, we may have at least half a decent one to chat with some sense
<ogra_cmpc> heh
<RichEd> the proprietary drive issues ... them fiddly bits
<RichEd> *driver
<ogra_cmpc> there are proprietary drivers ?
<RichEd> sonic etc.
 * ogra_cmpc wasnt aware and didnt plan anything ... 
<RichEd> me repeats the call for issues ... and raises the gavel in anticipation
 * RichEd looks around 
 * RichEd counts to 10
<RichEd> going once ...
<RichEd> twice ...
<RichEd> and that's a BONG and thanks ...
<ogra_cmpc> thanks
<RichEd> will be in the channel if needed
<cjwatson> ogra_cmpc_: oh, you want LTSP on Edubuntu's modes menu?
<ogra_cmpc_> cjwatson, in alternates modes menu
<ogra_cmpc_> there is no edubuntu cd with ltsp anymore :)
<cjwatson> err, right
<cjwatson> ok, that should be easy
<ogra_cmpc_> how freeze critical is that ?
<cjwatson> it doesn't require a package upload, but we should still do it sooner rather than later
<ogra_cmpc_> i would prefer to do it myself but i'm kneedeep in classmate stuff and wouldnt like to hibernate the enthusiasm
<cjwatson> why don't I do it now and mail you the diff so that you can grok it
<cjwatson> and then you get to do the next similar change :)
<ogra_cmpc_> that would be great
<ogra_cmpc_> thanks :)
<ogra_cmpc_> another thing i thought about is the edubuntu cd ... cant we just drop the bootloader completely during build ?
<cjwatson> we could, true
<ogra_cmpc_> so the BIOS cares and we dont need to make up special artwork, translations etc
<cjwatson> it would be a bit unhelpful but possibly better than a bootloader that doesn't work
<ogra_cmpc_> right
<ogra_cmpc_> and making it pretty is a bit more work imho ...
<cjwatson> ogra_cmpc_: ok, both done
<ogra_cmpc_> thanks, that takes some pressure away
<nand> #ubuntu-testing
<nand> :}
<pedro_> hello hello
 * Iulian waves
<ogasawara> hi
<pedro_> hey Iulian, hello ogasawara
<liw_> heippa
<pedro_> hola liw_
<nand> bonjour!
<bdmurray> howdy
<pedro_> salut
<heno> hello!
<Iulian> Hiya
 * stgraber waves
<heno> My system just died a minute ago, had to reboot :(
<heno> I'll need to investigate that after the meeting
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: here?
<bdmurray> ype
<ogasawara> heno: yup
<heno> ok
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:04. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> not many agenda items today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> [TOPIC] Beta testing preparations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Beta testing preparations
<heno> davmor2 and I met on Saturday to talk about Beta+ testing
<heno> I've drawn up a proposed schedule here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Schedule
<heno> according to which testing starts tomorrow
<heno> I'll write the distro team about contributing and blog as well
<heno> I'll be asking for help mostly toward the end --  ISO validation testing - March 18-19
<heno> ok, next
<heno> [TOPIC] Testing wiki pages refreshed - please review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Testing wiki pages refreshed - please review
<heno> that's mostly done. We still need to update some test cases
<heno> I'll post to the QA list regarding new features that we should cover
<bdmurray> I've been looking at the pages a bit this morning
<liw_> the update is done, or the review is done?
<heno> update
<liw_> so it's still good to review, check
<heno> I've been looking at http://www.ubuntu.com/testing for ideas for new test cases.
<heno> But further suggestions are welcome
<bdmurray> Does the FixValidation page overlap a lot with FixesToVerify?
<heno> bdmurray: not really
<heno> FixValidation is supposed to be bugs fixed since the milestone freeze
<heno> so in the past 2-3 days at that point
<bdmurray> okay
<heno> making sure that code we _just_ touched didn't break anything
<heno> both are useful to test from in that period though
<heno> bdmurray: thanks, I should clarify that on the page
<heno> so, please look the pages over for sanity and readability
<heno> that should cover that topic
<heno> bdmurray: how has your yesterday page been working?
<bdmurray> It has been interesting to me at least.
<heno> also an interesting page is http://daniel.holba.ch/really-fix-it/
<ogasawara> I was going through the really-fix-it kernel bugs yesterday
<heno> bdmurray: perhaps you can get the progress meter from there
<bdmurray> heno: that's an interesting idea
<heno> I looked at the abiword bugs and it seems they will all stay on the list
<heno> they are fixed upstream in v. 2.6 which I don't think we'll get until intrepid
<pedro_> right, bumping to 2.6 wouldn't be nice at this stage...
<heno> There should perhaps be a way of marking such bugs as 'have-looked-at-not-for-hardy' <- dholbach
<heno> any other topics today?
<bdmurray> heno: Have you been looking at Hardy nominations at all?
<heno> bdmurray: no I haven't
<bdmurray> Maybe we should review those again.
<heno> bdmurray: do you have the URL handy?
<dholbach> heno: not very easy to do
<heno> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+nominations
<bdmurray> heno: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+nominations
<bdmurray> ;)
<heno> dholbach: with a tag perhaps and mark it on the list with an * ?
<dholbach> or milestone it as 'later'?
<heno> that'll work
<dholbach> ok, I'll document that on the page and filter them out
<heno> so the nomination list is long again :)
<bdmurray> Couldn't we get an Ibex milestone setup rather than using Later?
<heno> dholbach: cool!
<bdmurray> Because they would just need to move from later to Ibex
<liw_> Ibex?
<bdmurray> liw_: Intrepid?
<stgraber> intrepid
<liw_> ah, right
<heno> so how do we triage the nominated bugs at this stage? Milestone the serious looking ones?
<bdmurray> and the In Progress ones. ;)
<heno> that would bring it onto the lists the developers and release managers look at
<heno> my guess is there is already a fair bit of overlap
<heno> ok, let's all have a look at the list and reduce it a bit for the next meeting
<heno> then we'll have a better idea of what it contains
<heno> bdmurray: thanks for bringing that up
<bdmurray> Sounds good.  Who should we speak to about adding an Intrepid milestone?
<heno> bdmurray: any LP admin I think, so kiko or mdz for example
<heno> bdmurray: will you take that?
<heno> I'll make a start on nominations today
<bdmurray> heno: okay, I'm pretty sure we have the power I'm not certain on the procedure
<bdmurray> anyway I'll look into it
<heno> likely not documented on the LP wiki
<heno> thanks
<heno> anything else?
<heno> ok, thanks everyone!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:35.
 * heno goes digging in logs to find out why his computer crashed earlier
<liw_> heno, just in case it's memory, you may want to run memtest86+ from the grub menu, for at least 12 hours, preferably 24
<heno> liw_: that is a good candidate, yes
<keescook> @now utc
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: March 12 2008, 19:00:22 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 hour 59 minutes
<keescook> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:00. The chair is keescook.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<keescook> [topic] introductions
<MootBot> New Topic:  introductions
 * propagandist waves
<keescook> okay, are people here for the security team meeting?  :)  hi propagandist
<keescook> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<keescook> there is the agenda for today's meeting
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 12 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 14 Mar 21:00: MOTU | 14 Mar 22:00: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 22:00: Server Team
<emgent> hi keescook
<keescook> heya emgent
<keescook> looks like joejaxx isn't here, but I'd like to still cover the TODO list/Roadmap
<emgent> jdstrand, :)
<keescook> is anyone from motu-swat here to do membership stuff for that team?
 * jdstrand got confused with the recent change to EDT
<keescook> well, and I tried to trick every one by moving it an hour in UTC too.  :P
<jdstrand> very sneaky indeed
<keescook> Fujitsu: are you here?  (ScottK, Nafallo, and sistypot aren't -- the other motu-swat admins)
<keescook> okay, well, I'll mark the motu-swat agenda item as postponed for now.
<keescook> alright, moving forward...
<keescook> [topic] CVE review
<MootBot> New Topic:  CVE review
<keescook> the only item I have here is to call attention to the -proposed version of mysql that jdstrand prepared.
<jdstrand> hey I was going to do that
<keescook> have at it.  :)
<keescook> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-March/025173.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-March/025173.html
<jdstrand> the bug is #201009
<jdstrand> bug #201009
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 201009 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "[mysql-dfsg-5.0] fix for several open vulnerabilities in -proposed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201009
<jdstrand> we need testing of the -proposed packages with feedback put in that bug
<keescook> anyone running mysql that can give it a go?
<jdstrand> the summary is that there were several CVEs that are fixed, but two of them, CVE-2007-6303 and CVE-2007-2692 were fairly intrusive
<ubotu> MySQL 5.0.x before 5.0.51a, 5.1.x before 5.1.23, and 6.0.x before 6.0.4 does not update the DEFINER value of a view when the view is altered, which allows remote authenticated users to gain privileges via a sequence of statements including a CREATE SQL SECURITY DEFINER VIEW statement and an ALTER VIEW statement. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2007-6303)
<ubotu> The mysql_change_db function in MySQL 5.0.x before 5.0.40 and 5.1.x before 5.1.18 does not restore THD::db_access privileges when returning from SQL SECURITY INVOKER stored routines, which allows remote authenticated users to gain privileges. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2007-2692)
<jdstrand> you go ubotu
<jdstrand> anyhoo, the packages have gone through quite a bit of testing already and are in good shape as far as I can tell, but it be nice to get more testing
<jdstrand> dapper - feisty primarily
<sdh> oops, hi
<jdstrand> gutsy is close enough to upstream that it wasn't affected be these
<jdstrand> that came out weird
<jdstrand> gutsy isn't affected by those
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> ok, that was wrong
<keescook> heh :)
<jdstrand> gutsy is affected by 6303, but is close enough to the current upstream that its patch wasn't intrusive
 * jdstrand tried to be too brief in his summary
<keescook> cool.  so, anyone listening, please enable -proposed and give some feedback.  :)
<keescook> any other CVE issues people want to bring up?
<keescook> [topic] Contributing to ubuntu-cve-tracker
<MootBot> New Topic:  Contributing to ubuntu-cve-tracker
<keescook> okay, so, the Ubuntu CVE tracker is used to ... track CVEs
<keescook> [link] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-cve-tracker
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-cve-tracker
<keescook> we're all doing lots of CVE updates, and I'd like to have more people from motu-swat reviewing the open CVEs
<keescook> Fujitsu did a few great passes at it, but it still needs more work
<keescook> the process is fairly well documented in the README
<keescook> [link] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/ubuntu-cve-tracker/master/files
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/ubuntu-cve-tracker/master/files
<jdstrand> in addition to getting it up to date, ubuntu-cve-tracker is the main method we use to coordinate wok on the CVEs
<keescook> before the next meeting, I'll make sure we have a published "open CVE" list so it's easier for people to see the work
<keescook> [action] keescook to get HTML publication finalized
<MootBot> ACTION received:  keescook to get HTML publication finalized
<jdstrand> it is important that if we are preparing updates that we check ubuntu-cve-tracker to see if the CVE is assigned to someone, so there isn't duplicate work
<jdstrand> (this happened recently)
<keescook> emgent: have you had a chance to check out a branch of this?
<jdstrand> if it's assigned to someone, then ping that person to see what's going on
<emgent> yep
<emgent> i use this for working
<keescook> emgent: cool.  if you have any changes, please push up a branch and we can merge in your updates
<emgent> ok i will do.
<jdstrand> seems that is the best way to go
<keescook> okay... moving on
<keescook> [topic] To-Do List (Expanding our Roadmap)
<MootBot> New Topic:  To-Do List (Expanding our Roadmap)
<keescook> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap
<jdstrand> motu-swat people check out their branch, keep it up to date with master, and keescook and I will pull in the changes
<jdstrand> lp has a way to request a merge that makes it very convenient
<keescook> I'd like to see more things listed on the ST roadmap :)
<jdstrand> Fujitsu did that the other day and it worked great
<keescook> if people have ideas about stuff they want to work on, please add it to the roadmap.
<jdstrand> yikes, I didn't think we were done with u-c-t yet
<keescook> I'd love to get all the non-exec stack bugs closed, too.
<keescook> jdstrand: np, it was kind of a short topic -- not a big group today
<keescook> [action] keescook to add non-exec stack bug list to roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  keescook to add non-exec stack bug list to roadmap
<emgent> :)
<keescook> anyone have anything else they want to see on the TODO list?
<emgent> not now, for me
<jdstrand> though it overlaps with the server team
<jdstrand> I think apparmor profiles would be great
<keescook> one idea I had was to add a "wishlist" section to the roadmap, and point anyone there that had ideas they wanted to see implemented.
<keescook> ooh, yeah
<gaten> what about something like a bastille script for ubuntu??
<keescook> I don't mind having TODO items duplicated between teams -- more chance people will work on it :)
<jdstrand> while I haven't tried it, wouldn't Debian's bastille work fine on ubuntu?
<keescook> I'd also like to add "build FAQ" to the TODO list
<gaten> +1 for the wishlist
<jdstrand> I like the wishlist idea too
<emgent> +1 too
<gaten> jdstrand: quite possible. sounds like a TODO
<mathiaz> keescook: one of the problem with a whishlist section in the Roadmap is that it can become a long landry list
<keescook> mathiaz: true.  I figure if it gets that way, we can move it to another page.
<mathiaz> keescook: That's why the server Team has a IdeaPool page that is separate from the Roadmpa
<gaten> jdstrand: but i would like to see a hardened default config
<mathiaz> keescook: the desktop team has a vision wiki page for long term and todo for short trem
<keescook> gaten: "hardened" means so many things.  what parts did you have in mind?
<mathiaz> keescook: and people tend to start discussing things under the wishlist point
<keescook> mathiaz: I'm all for generating discussion.  any significantly large discussion can be turned into a Blueprint.  :)
<gaten> keescook: the basics first. umask, ulimit, read access to logs etc
<gaten> and i would like to see a firewall thats enabled and has some actual rules on by default.
<sdh> agreed on firewall
<keescook> gaten: some of that already exists -- it's be great to document a checklist.  Can you write a wiki page for that, and link to it in the Wishlist section?
<jdstrand> gaten: not sure if you are referring to ufw there, but after an install, a simple 'sudo ufw enable' and you've got a good host-based firewall
<keescook> (I've added Wishlist and FAQ to the Roadmap now)
<gaten> keescook: sure. when will this whislist be available?
<gaten> ahh, nvm
<keescook> also, I'd like to see the "KnowledgeBase" link to something useful.
<gaten> jdstrand: ahh, wasn;t aware it shipped w/ rules available. but it should still be part of the setup, like 'Do you want to enable the firewall on startup'
<keescook> I figure lists of links to other information could be handy there (oss-security link, CVE tracker link, you name it)
<gaten> another item I have brought up on the list-server but have done nothing about: chrooted packages (ie apt-get install LAMP-chroot)
<jdstrand> gaten: that is a hard problem and very site-specific
<jdstrand> however, the 'M' in LAMP is now in apparmor enforcing mode
<keescook> :)
<jdstrand> gaten: I have been thinking about how to deal with 'A'
<gaten> jdstrand: what about using bind-chroot as a stepping stone? and another thing, does chroot become moot if apparmor/selinux are implimented?
<jdstrand> gaten: re> chroot moor -- basically yes
<keescook> gaten: depends ... I'd say that might be true if kvm/xen are used too
<jdstrand> gaten: you get a lot of pain for little gain
<keescook> some people use chroots to split up service configs.  *shrug*
<gaten> well apache is the easiest to chroot of em all, and there are so many scripts out there for it. also you've got mod-chroot if you wanna take the easy way out, still don't think its as secure though
<jdstrand> gaten: and it isn't apache that is the problem, it is wirtual hosting and added packages
<jdstrand> virtual even
<gaten> yes, and updating. ive played that game before
<jdstrand> me too
<jdstrand> which is why apparmor and selinux can help quite a bit here
<gaten> which is why i have wet dreams of apt-get update lam-chroot ;)
<keescook> hehe
<emgent> hahha
<keescook> okay, move on?
<gaten> ok, so hold off on that for now then
<jdstrand> however, more thought needs to be done on the packaging of the added software and dealing with virtual hosts in a sane way that is easy to profile
<keescook> we're skipping MOTU-SWAT membership since we lack any motu-swat admins
<jdstrand> gaten: it is absolutely an idea though, feel free to add it :)
<keescook> [topic] SELinux progress
<MootBot> New Topic:  SELinux progress
<keescook> propagandist: all yours
<propagandist> hey everyone
<propagandist> A new bug fix release of SETools was released today which includes transitional packages (and should resolve the major complaint with the last FFE request).
<keescook> excellent
<keescook> oh, ubotu just left
<propagandist> An official release of SELinux was done last week as well.
<keescook> for the logs, setools FFe is bug 198391
<propagandist> I'll be integrating these into the packages and reposting to REVU.
<keescook> propagandist: ah! that's good news.  I'm glad to see that SELinux release.
<propagandist> for SETools that means updating the ffe as well
<propagandist> for the rest of them do I need to do an FFE?
<propagandist> keescook: ;o}
<keescook> propagandist: is it a new upstream version?  if so, yes.
<keescook> what do we gain by updating SELinux?
<keescook> [link] https://launchpad.net/bugs/198391
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/198391
<jdstrand> is this 3.3.4 or a more major update?
<propagandist> not too much I would think
<propagandist> its 3.3.4
<jdstrand> as this FFE isn't accepted yet, could it just be updated?
<propagandist> the upstream selinux ones would only have the advantage of using an official release (but they are basically the same as what we have now)
<keescook> propagandist: if the changelog is small, I'm for it, just to be on a "known" release version.
<propagandist> jdstrand: yes for setools, i will update the ffe
<keescook> [link] http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/code/download-trunk.cfm
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/code/download-trunk.cfm
<keescook> I see it's at 2.0.59
<propagandist> yup and we are curretly on 2.0.55
<keescook> propagandist: so, beyond those things, how is SELinux on Hardy for you guys?  Has it tested out well?
<propagandist> keescook: it looks good to me, there is still a mislabeled cups file i need to fix, and some upgrade problems with sepolgen, but in general it looks good
<propagandist> keescook: of course I will be fixing those -^
<keescook> propagandist: okay -- beta freeze starts tomorrow IIRC, so I'd recommend focusing on bug fixes first, then FFe later -- the FFes might not get through :)
<propagandist> keescook: kk
<propagandist> anyone else  had a chance to poke at it?
<keescook> I booted it once found myself in unconfined X11 session, but it all appears to be running.
<keescook> I haven't tried the relabeling since the fsck/usplash integration work was finished.
<keescook> I think it'll just look like a regular fsck
<keescook> ajmitch, siretart: you guys here?  have you played with SELinux in Hardy yet?
<keescook> propagandist: did you reproduce the unconfined X session, or do I just have a weird install?
<propagandist> keescook: I haven't been able to reproduce it :(
<keescook> heh, okay.  I'll give it another shot now that I've got kvm running sanely.
<keescook> alright, shall we move on?
<propagandist> keescook: but maybe i'm misunderstanding because you should be unconfined_t
<keescook> oh, that's what I was seeing
<propagandist> ah
<propagandist> ;o} well all is good then
<mathiaz> propagandist: keescook you may wanna ask on ubuntu-hardened for more selinux testing on hardy
<keescook> I'm still an SENewb :)
<propagandist> ;o}
<propagandist> mathiaz: will do
<keescook> mathiaz: good idea
<mathiaz> and add ubuntu-server@lists.ubuntu.com in the game also
<keescook> [action] propagandist to bring up SELinux testing on u-hardened and u-server lists
<MootBot> ACTION received:  propagandist to bring up SELinux testing on u-hardened and u-server lists
<propagandist> kk, i'm all out of status
<keescook> okay...  Selinux gui utils is skipping (joejaxx is gone)
<keescook> er, skipped
<keescook> [topic] Hardening Wrapper testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardening Wrapper testing
<keescook> so, I recompiled all of "main" will the wrappers enabled.
<keescook> I tried full, no-pie, and no-hardening.
<keescook> overall, the results were good
<keescook> [link] http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/hardening/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/hardening/
<keescook> I have all the build logs saved
<keescook> but I threw out the .debs since I didn't have space for it
<keescook> if people are interested in going through the "ok-nohardening.txt" file to figure out what's failing, and opening bugs for it, that would rock
<keescook> (same goes for ok-nopie.txt, but those are likely a bit trickier)
<jdstrand> keescook: did you get a chance to try the rebuild with the i386 personality?
<keescook> jdstrand: oh!  no, I didn't.
<keescook> I will start one up over the weekend.
<gaten> keescook: do we have a priority for certain packages in nohardening?
<keescook> I'm also considering generating a PPA that is exclusively hardened builds.
<jdstrand> <mrburns>excellent</mrburns>
<keescook> gaten: no real priority -- my goal is to have those two text files be 0 length by the end of intrepid.  :)
<keescook> but I know it's going to be a lot of work.
<gaten> heh, roger that
<keescook> I want to run the PPA idea past the soyuz folks so I don't get poked in the eye :)
<siretart> keescook: re selinux in hardy: yes, at my departmend we had a course (a week fulltime) were two students played with selinux in hardy
<keescook> a concern brought up on the Debian devel mailing list is one of performance.  All the measurements I've done show less than 1% loss for PIE
<keescook> siretart: the new stuff that tresys has worked on?
<siretart> exactly. I instructed them to use the ubuntu-hardened PPA
<keescook> PIE> I am not a statistician.  :)
<keescook> siretart: cool!
<propagandist> siretart: !!
<siretart> the objective was writing 2 policy modules: one for mt-daapd and one for boxbackup
<propagandist> siretart: awsome :o} how did it go?
<siretart> propagandist: the __sns__ guy was one of the two students, you remember? ;)
<siretart> both were successfully
<siretart> some tools behaved a bit strange compared to fedora
<propagandist> oh? which ones?
<siretart> IIRC adding new selinux users, and listing selinux users. it looked like ubuntu had a different version of the tools or something
<siretart> I have to admit that I don't remember exactly
<propagandist> ah i see
<jdstrand> siretart: how long ago was this?
<siretart> 18.2.2008-22.2.2008
<siretart> was that course
<keescook> emgent had to leave early due to stuff out of his control, so he asked that his topics be postponed
<jdstrand> well, seems the selinux reprise is over
<siretart> anyways, I had a rather good impression of selinux in ubuntu
<keescook> \o/
<propagandist> siretart: thanks for the feedback :o} its great to hear that it worked for them
<jdstrand> keescook: has there been any more discussion of enabling hardening-wrapper on specific packages
<jdstrand> ?
<siretart> what was most surprising is that the "new" unconfined module in ubuntu was behaving very differently than most documentation out there
<jdstrand> keescook: ie what I added to the Roadmap?
<jdstrand> I admit I haven't done anything with it
<siretart> e.g. we didn't manage to get the gpg module work in ubuntu at all
<keescook> jdstrand: there hasn't been -- I've been waiting to get feedback from doko about the hardened builds.
 * jdstrand nods
<keescook> for us to build stuff with hardening enabled vi Build-Deps (not the buildds) we'd need to promote hardening-wrapper to main, etc
<siretart> I think what's needed here most is more documentation/explanation how the unconfined module is supposed to work in ubuntu.
<keescook> jdstrand: so, at least we could provide PPAs for hardened builds too.
<jdstrand> keescook: that would be a good alternative.  I'm just really excited about hardening wrapper and thinking about how this is an LTS release
<NthDegree> yes indeed siretart
<propagandist> siretart: kk, i'll look at adding it to the wiki, if you can send me more information on the problems you had getting gpg working that will help
<keescook> jdstrand: yeah, I wish it could have happened earlier, but this is how it worked out.  :(
<doko> keescook: yeah ...
<keescook> doko: oh! hey there.  :)
<NthDegree> just to satisfy my curiosity:  how is unconfined going to handle mprotect ideally?
<doko> keescook: just found me doing uploads for reports assigned to some k...c...
<keescook> doko: oh?
<siretart> propagandist: well, afaiu, the gpg module is not supposed to run from the unconfined role, and a role transition was neccessary to do that. I think a small howto or example module or something how to enable the gpg module for 'normal' users would be a great example!
<propagandist> NthDegree: Can you clarify?
<NthDegree> propagandist: preventing execstack, execmem, execmod etc.
<NthDegree> Fedora prevents that in normal "unconfined".. will Ubuntu have it the reverse way?
<NthDegree> as in tagging apps gradually that can safely be restricted, and leaving the rest truly unrestricted
<keescook> say, let's move the selinux discussion to #ubuntu-hardened, and I can close up this meeting.  :)
<keescook> we've got no more topics
<propagandist> kk :o}
<keescook> [topic] schedule
<MootBot> New Topic:  schedule
<keescook> next meeting in two weeks, same time?
<jdstrand> good with me
 * jdstrand will be sure to remember his timezone next time
<keescook> heh
<keescook> okay, thanks very much everyone!  great work all around.  :)
<keescook> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:16.
<jdstrand> thanks keescook!
<gaten> thanks all
<keescook> :)
 * faulkes- whistles innocently
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 12 Mar 17:00: Server Team | 14 Mar 16:00: MOTU | 14 Mar 17:00: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 17:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 17:00: Server Team
<txwikinger> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 14 Mar 20:00: MOTU | 14 Mar 21:00: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14 Mar 21:00 UTC: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team
 * mathiaz gets ready for the server team meeting...
<ivoks> hi
<sommer> o//
<jdstrand> hi!
<owh> hiya
<soren> Hi, guys.
 * nealmcb waves
 * nijaba waves
<nealmcb> sommer: I just made some changes to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI
<owh> nijaba: Updated the launch text a few moments ago.
<mathiaz> Let's get started for this week meeting
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 21:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<sommer> nealmcb: cool
<dendrobates> o/
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080305
<mathiaz> So I've sent an email about the ServerTestingTeam
<mathiaz> And I've noticed that some new pages were created in the wiki
<mathiaz> Again - anyone that has some server hardware available is welcome to test drive hardy.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server survey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server survey
<mathiaz> The reportingpage has been updated
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReportingPage
 * soren blushes as he realises he hasn't sent anything for that page :(
<mathiaz> nijaba: any news on the hosting front ?
<owh> soren: You could have updated it and blamed it on "caching" :)
<nijaba> we are waiting for an audit from kees
<nijaba> it should be done soon
<soren> owh: Encouraging dishonesty? Tsk, tsk :)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] iSCSI support
<MootBot> New Topic:  iSCSI support
<soren> I talked to Rick.
<mathiaz> soren: did you have a change to talk with steve about root fs support ?
<soren> We decided we wanted to do it.
 * keescook ran out of time last friday.
<soren> I e-mailed slangasek asking if it was ok. I haven't heard back.
<nijaba> \o/
<faulkes-> evening
<soren> This was Friday, I believe. I should poke him some more.
<mathiaz> soren: that would be post-beta work I guess
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren to talk with slangasek about iSCSI support for root fs.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to talk with slangasek about iSCSI support for root fs.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Bacula status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bacula status
<ivoks> hi
<mathiaz> ivoks: what's the state of your work on that ?
<ivoks> it needs one day of work
<ivoks> tomorrow it will be ready for inspection
<mathiaz> ivoks: great
<mathiaz> who can do the inspection ?
<ivoks> if someone want to see debdiff, http://www.grad.hr/~ivoks/bacula.diff
<nijaba> beta freeze starts tomorrow
<sommer> so is bacula going to make it into main?
<mathiaz> probably not before beta
<ivoks> ok, then it will be finished in couple of hours
<nijaba> we have yet to file a mir, though...
<sommer> for hardy release?
<ivoks> debdiff is already over 1000 lines
 * zul cries
<sommer> either way I was just wondering if we should add a section to the docs or not?
<ivoks> zul: it's not that bad :)
<mathiaz> considering that we're changing a lot of the packaging, we should ask for FFexception
<mathiaz> or should it be considered as just bug fixes ?
<nijaba> these are mainly bug fixes to match requirements, IIRC
<ivoks> there are also new features
<ivoks> like new catalog_backup script
<mathiaz> isn't that a fix for the security issues raised ?
<ivoks> it is
<ivoks> anyway... i'll finish it in couple of hours
<nijaba> so it is a bug fix ;)
<mathiaz> anyway - since the diff seems large, it may worth asking for a FFe to the motu-release team
<mathiaz> zul: can you review the bacula diff ?
<zul> mathiaz: sure..
<mathiaz> zul: and figure out whether a FFe is needed or not
<zul> I can do it tomorrow
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to post an updated debdiff for bacula
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to post an updated debdiff for bacula
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul to review the bacula debdiff
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to review the bacula debdiff
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] mysql testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  mysql testing
<mathiaz> jdstrand: what did you do to mysql ?
<ivoks> zul: i'll be online, so contact me if you have questions
<jdstrand> I have been preparing a security update for mysql
<zul> ivoks: sure thanks
<jdstrand> there are several issues that are addressed
<jdstrand> 2 required a rather substantial patch
<jdstrand> all of this is documented in bug #201009
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 201009 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "[mysql-dfsg-5.0] fix for several open vulnerabilities in -proposed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201009
<jdstrand> the short summary is that CVE-2007-6303 and CVE-2007-2692 required quite a bit of work to fix dapper - feisty
<ubotu> MySQL 5.0.x before 5.0.51a, 5.1.x before 5.1.23, and 6.0.x before 6.0.4 does not update the DEFINER value of a view when the view is altered, which allows remote authenticated users to gain privileges via a sequence of statements including a CREATE SQL SECURITY DEFINER VIEW statement and an ALTER VIEW statement. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2007-6303)
<ubotu> The mysql_change_db function in MySQL 5.0.x before 5.0.40 and 5.1.x before 5.1.18 does not restore THD::db_access privileges when returning from SQL SECURITY INVOKER stored routines, which allows remote authenticated users to gain privileges. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2007-2692)
<jdstrand> as such, I have uploaded the packages to -proposed for wider testing
<jdstrand> they have received a good bit of testing already, and they look good here
<jdstrand> I'd really appreciate it if people could test these packages and report 'works here' in that bug report, so I can push the update out next week
<mathiaz> jdstrand: great
<nijaba> jdstrand: there is a version for dapper?
<jdstrand> because gutsy is so close to upstream, its patches weren't significant
<mathiaz> jdstrand: You've already sent a couple emails on different mailing lists
<mathiaz> jdstrand: could you post something to the forums ?
<jdstrand> really looking for dapper (and edgy and feisty if possible)
<mathiaz> jdstrand: or ask faulkes- about it ?
<jdstrand> nijaba: 5.0.22
<jdstrand> is faulkes- around?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: I think there is developer forum that is targeted at that
<jdstrand> mathiaz: but to answer your question-- sure
<mathiaz> jdstrand: altought I'm not sure if the people reading the developer forums would be able to test your updates
<jdstrand> nijaba: oh heh, I read your question to quickly-- yes dapper has updates and I'd really like testing there
<jdstrand> mathiaz: couldn't hurt
<nijaba> ok, I'll test it on my prod server
<mathiaz> jdstrand: could you coordinate with faulkes- about requesting feedback in the forums ?
<nijaba> and blame you if it blows up ;)
<jdstrand> nijaba: yes, you would be within your rights on that
<mathiaz> [ACTION] jdstrand to coordinate with faulkes- about mysql testing in the forums
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to coordinate with faulkes- about mysql testing in the forums
 * jdstrand won't mention testing updtes on a production server, as he really wants as much testing as possible
<jdstrand> ;)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] LSB compliant init script
<MootBot> New Topic:  LSB compliant init script
<mathiaz> kirkland: owh: you've started to look into that
<mathiaz> what is the outcome ?
<owh> We started creating some code to get output.
<kirkland> mathiaz: we have a list of all packages in Main, and Universe that install something in /etc/init.d
<owh> We've created an initial list of the hardy .iso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OnnoBenschop/ubuntu-server/init.d-status
<owh> Next step is testing what they output :)
<ScottK2> Is this really a project we ought to be starting a day before beta freeze?
<mathiaz> LSB compliant means a lot of things - what are you trying to fix first ?
<mathiaz> I think trying to get the status action for the daemons makes sense
<kirkland> mathiaz: a "status" action by init scripts is one of the things required for LSB
<kirkland> mathiaz: in most cases, it's a trivial patch
<mathiaz> having a fully compliant init script may require too much work though
<owh> We start small and work our way up.
<mathiaz> kirkland: well - there is also the headers for startup sequence
<kirkland> mathiaz: for services (and mainly those in ubuntu-server), i think it's important enough to have in Hardy, and minor enough code changes
<owh> We started with the packages installed by tasksel on the ubuntu-server install.
<ScottK2> Personally I think adding features to inits is adding features and should be done at the appropriate point in the development cycle for feature development.
<kirkland> mathiaz: full compliance is beyond the scope I'm suggesting
<owh> It's a fair point ScottK2
<mathiaz> ScottK2: right. OTOH not having a status action for init script is really annoying
<owh> And I figure if we're serious with ebox, it will need to know if stuff is working - no?
<mathiaz> so trying to add a status action for packages that are on the ubuntu-server iso seems to be a good compromise
<kirkland> mathiaz: i agree with that
<owh> All of them, or only the ones that are installed by a tasksel server selection?
<ScottK2> It's not nearly annoying as having a broken init script on release day.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: I'd say that testing an init script is easy.
<ScottK2> mathiaz: I think if you want to pursue this you should ask ubuntu-release for an FFe.
<owh> There's only 7 that don't have a status that are installed by a tasksel *server selection
<mathiaz> ScottK2: aggreed.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: I was about to suggest that we should talk to ubuntu-release about this.
<ScottK2> It all depends on the init.
<kirkland> ScottK2: the risk is having an init script with a broken 'status' action on release day
<ScottK2> kirkland: We have lots on unimplemented features.
<kirkland> we should not be affecting the start/stop/(other) actions
<mathiaz> kirkland: could you update the Roadmap with a clear scope on what we aim at ?
<ScottK2> kirkland: Agree with should not.
<owh> There are only 4 that have a status option so far.
<nealmcb> I'd suggest taking it one package as a time - if the patch is trivial and fixes the "non-lsb-compliant" bug, then it is worthwhile given the 5 year lifespan of hardy.  but I know it is also risky
<mathiaz> kirkland: and also list the packages targeted for hardy ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: will do
<mathiaz> kirkland: once the list is there, we can ask ubuntu-release to have a look at it and get a FFe for it.
<kirkland> nealmcb: I agree with your LTS comment, plus the fact that this is "catch-up" for many key services on ubuntu-server
<mathiaz> kirkland: however we won't have this ready by beta.
<nealmcb> at any rate, thanks for gathering the data, folks....
<mathiaz> kirkland: the archive freeze is tomorrow - and these are patches that are not show-stoppers for the beta release
<owh> That gives us 24 hours :)
<kirkland> owh: with 2/7 done
<zul> uh...no it gives you less than that
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to update the Roadmap outlining the scope of the work - just add status action
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to update the Roadmap outlining the scope of the work - just add status action
 * nealmcb would love to have status-getting documentation that doesn't have to say "except on hardy" for a long time
<owh> Seriously, the packages on the CD, there are really not that many if we limit ourselves to tasksel only stuff.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to ask ubuntu-release for a FFe for each of the packages.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to ask ubuntu-release for a FFe for each of the packages.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] libdb4.x transition
<MootBot> New Topic:  libdb4.x transition
<mathiaz> there has been some work done on this.
<mathiaz> mruiz has been working on a couple of them - and contacted some upstream about the transition. Some of the upstream added a check in the configure script for a specific version of libdb.
<mathiaz> zul: is the Roadmap updated wrt to the package you've uploaded ?
<zul> mathiaz: afaik yes
<zul> yes it is...mruiz is doing the rest of them
<mathiaz> ScottK2: is there any packages for libdb4.4 and libdb4.5 ?
<ScottK2> mathiaz: There are, but I haven't had time to look
<mathiaz> ScottK2: ok - so may be we should concentrate on libdb4.3
<ScottK2> Yes.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: and then jump to libdb4.4 and 4.5
<ScottK2> Yes
<ScottK2> lidbd4.2 will be sticking around, so no point worrying about that one right now.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server Guide documentation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Guide documentation
<mathiaz> ScottK2: yeah - related to openldap
<ScottK2> Exactly
<mathiaz> sommer: so how is the string freeze going ?
<sommer> getting there
<sommer> added an ebox section if people would like to review
<mathiaz> sommer: do you have section that needs focus for review ?
<sommer> probably the virt section... working with nijaba and soren on it
<sommer> I should have an update for it this evening... the current version isn't quite accurate
<mathiaz> sommer: ok - I'll look into also as I'm still setting up my new vm environement.
<sommer> mathiaz: cool, the more the marrier
<mathiaz> keescook and jdstrand have also migrated to kvm IIRC
<jdstrand> yep
<jdstrand> loving it
<nealmcb> :-)
<jdstrand> much less resource intensive than vmware
<sommer> other than that just working through the rest of the sections and updating minor adjustments for hardy
<nijaba> at least sommer does it in real condition: remotely
<sommer> heh... attempts to :-)
<mathiaz> sommer: could you update the Roadmap with a list of the section you'd ask for review ?
<dendrobates> sommer:  I should get the likewise-open man pages by tomorrow.
<soren> I had 10 vm's running at the same time a few days ago. Worked fine.
<mathiaz> sommer: so that we can point people to it and focus our efforts on that.
<sommer> mathiaz: sure
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] sommer to update the roadmap section with a list of section of the server guide that need reviews.
<MootBot> New Topic:  sommer to update the roadmap section with a list of section of the server guide that need reviews.
<sommer> dendrobates: that's cool, I noticed the ffe bug.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: could you update the factoids by adding a servergui entry ?
<nealmcb> I sent mail a little while ago
<mathiaz> !servergui
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about servergui - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<nealmcb> mail to the server team...
<nealmcb> if folks like what I wrote, and the servergui changes, I'll talk to the ops
<faulkes-> I now have hardware and a requirement for virtuals, so I'll be doing kvm stuff very soon
<nealmcb>  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI
<nealmcb> (that's mostly sommer's work of course - just a few edits by me)
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I think it looks good
<jdstrand> I should mention that while I have been loving kvm
<mathiaz> nealmcb: and should be added
<jdstrand> and have moved all my vmware machines to it
<nealmcb> will do
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I can't seem to find your email to the server team about the servergui entry
<jdstrand> there is some adjustments that need to be made on pre-hardy vms
<nealmcb> just half an hour ago
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nealmcb to add an entry for the servergui factoid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb to add an entry for the servergui factoid
<jdstrand> I will update the wiki accordingly (probably tomorrow)
<jdstrand> additionally, there is s script available to help migrate
<mathiaz> nealmcb: ah ok - I haven't checked my email
<jdstrand> vmware images to kvm:
<jdstrand> http://people.ubuntu.com/~soren/vmware2libvirt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~soren/vmware2libvirt
 * owh hugs jdstrand
 * owh thanks soren for the code.
<nealmcb> I did change one part of the recommend apt-get commands...
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] LTS upgrades
<MootBot> New Topic:  LTS upgrades
<mathiaz> so what are our current efforts in that area ?
<soren> owh: Oh, it's jdstrand's doing. All of it.
<soren> owh: I just stole it and threw it on people.ubuntu.com :)
<owh> ROTFL
<mathiaz> so I guess we're doing really good on LTS upgrade testing if noone has anything to report
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I would not assume that
<jdstrand> :)
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I was until a moment ago silent because I haven't done it
<ScottK2> I can unequivicably (or however that's spelled) say that I have not encountered any errors in LTS to LTS upgrade testing.
 * jdstrand could say the same
<mathiaz> well - my question then is: what was LTS-to-LTS-upgrade-tested ?
 * sommer needs to make time for testing LTS on LTS action
<nealmcb> ScottK2: but what fractions of the upgrades have been successful?  Any singularities encountered?
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> ScottK2: I guess you've tested postfix and mail daemon
<ScottK2> Actually I haven't directly, but I've tested direct upgrades of Postfix to modern versions on Dapper with no trouble for backports
<mathiaz> well - we still need to focus on LTS-to-LTS upgrades
<mathiaz> especially now that we're about to release beta
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<mathiaz> anyone wants to add something ?
<mathiaz> soren: could you update the ReportingPage with a virtualization section ?
<ScottK2> mathiaz: Any chance now for tasksel changes?
<owh> And a migration guide :)
<mathiaz> dendrobates: same thing for likewise-open ?
<mathiaz> ScottK2: you mean the dovecot+postfix integration ?
<ScottK2> mathiaz: Yes.
<soren> mathiaz: Will do.
<ScottK2> I wanted to see about integrating amavisd-new since we finally got it in Main
<mathiaz> ScottK2: I think that ivoks updated the patch for the new version of tasksel
<mathiaz> ScottK2: now it needs a FFe and then a core-dev can upload it
<soren> "unequivocably", I think, by the way.
 * kirkland quivs with soren
<ScottK2> soren: That looks right
<ScottK2> mathiaz: Do you have a bug number?  If there's a patch, I'll look into FFe.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dovecot/+bug/164837
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 164837 in dovecot "Dovecot SASL for postfix" [Low,In progress]
 * ScottK2 looks
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<mathiaz> Same time, same place, next week ?
<nealmcb> yes - utc-wise :-)
<mathiaz> well - 21:00 UTC
<nxvl> meeting is already over?
<mathiaz> the time hasn't changed - only the some part of the world decided to move forward in time
<ivoks> mathiaz: yes, i've updated it
<ivoks> ScottK2: no, i didn't put amavis in it; and i'm not big fan of doing amavis filtering by default
<ivoks> ScottK2: i think we should leave that to people who know what it is for
<ivoks> otherwise, we'll have angry users complaining that their ubuntu mail server kills mail
<ScottK2> ivoks: Fair enough
<ScottK2> It's certain not something we should shove in at the last minute if there's no consensus.
<ivoks> ScottK2: amavis bounces mail with exe attachments by default, so... i don't know...
<mathiaz> Ok - so next meeting: next week, same time same place
<ScottK2> We'd need to come up with a do no harm config
<mathiaz> Thanks all for attending ! :)
<ivoks> ScottK2: yeah... i'm still in a quest for ideal amavis config :)
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:08.
<ivoks> ScottK2: and, it would love to see mailzu integrated with amavis
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later all
<nijaba> thanks all
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14 Mar 21:00 UTC: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-03-13
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 14 Mar 21:00: MOTU | 14 Mar 22:00: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 22:00: Server Team
<spaww> hi all
<spaww> anybody have a comparation for SERVERS with red hat and ubuntu ?
<spaww> i need to justify the utilization of ubuntu on my servers
<spaww> no one ?
<Keybuk> spaww: this channel is only used for meetings
<Keybuk> spaww: try #ubuntu
<spaww> ok tkz
<pitti> hi
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 15 Mar 07:00: MOTU | 15 Mar 08:00: REVU Coordination | 20 Mar 08:00: Server Team | 27 Mar 08:00: Server Team
<Hobbsee> ouch
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 14 Mar 16:00: MOTU | 14 Mar 17:00: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 17:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 17:00: Server Team
<zul> thaaats better
 * mvo waves
<pedro_> hello hello!
<Keybuk> fridge has forgotten our meeting again
<seele> no Desktop meeting?  or did I get the time wrong?
<pitti> seele: should happen right now
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> we're just waiting for the boss
<Keybuk> oh, wait, that's me
<mvo> the boss-boss ?
<mvo> aha
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-03-13
<Keybuk> I didn't see any agenda items in the reports today
<Keybuk> did I miss any?
<kwwii> btw, I am here but I might be away shortly if my son starts puking again
<tedg> This is precisely the reason video chat should never catch on....
<kwwii> ;-)
<Keybuk> nothing added to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingPage this week either
<Keybuk> (hint) :p
<seele> if there are no agenda items can i ask a question about the Desktop Experiences Templates?
<pitti> *shrug* didn't find anything interesting to add
<Keybuk> seele: of course, what is your question?
<seele> What exactly are the goals of those pages?  i.e. what kind of content goes in to them?
<seele> when i figure heard of them, i thought it would be a collection of user research information
<seele> but they just look like use cases (not use scenarios which are tied to user research information)
<seele> *should* they contain more user research, or did i misunderstand their purpose?
<Keybuk> seele: a bit of everything at the moment; we're still working out what to put in them
<Keybuk> the person you want to talk to is mpt, he'll be owning those in a few months
<seele> ok
<seele> documenting user research is very important, and that would be the place to put it
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> feel free to start work on them if it interests you :)
<Keybuk> any contribution is valuable
<seele> to document user groups and profiles for each of the experiences would help all related applications to those experiences
<seele> ok, i just didnt want to start editing pages that dont belong to me
<Keybuk> they're on the wiki precisely so anyone can edit them :-)
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> pitti: thanks for chairing the meeting and giving out the report last week
<pitti> you're welcome
<pitti> btw, does http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/qa-hardy-list-archive/sort-by-package/desktop-buglist.html ever get updated automatically?
<pitti> it looks pretty much the same like last week
<tedg> seele: Also look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Experiences/Current
<Keybuk> and thanks for the extensive review of that URL
<pitti> and e. g. I untagged 131976 last week
<Keybuk> pedro_: do you know the answer to Martin's question?
<seele> tedg: yes, i've read the ones that exist for hardy
<Keybuk> they were certainly touched today
<kwwii> pitti: you went through that many bugs?
<pitti> it's not that many
<pedro_> pitti: AFAIK it's, will talk with ogasawara about that
<tedg> That's actually an interesting question, the out-of-diskspace thing, does the fact that it works on reboot close the bug?
<Keybuk> mvo: there's a few on that list that seem to be yours
<pitti> tedg: I'd say yes; thanks for testing
<tedg> It would be nicer if GDM handled it, but I'd say at some level it's fixed.
<mvo> Keybuk: yeah, I attacked some already, but there are still quite a few left
<seb128> doh
<mvo> Keybuk: espceially the compiz one with the screensaver is difficult, I was never able to reproduce it
<Keybuk> mvo: I mean that aren't assigned to you
<pitti> tedg: so the 1 MB /tmp tmpfs helped? it's not necessary to have free space on ~?
<seb128> nobody pinged me?
<mvo> Keybuk: oh, sorry
<Keybuk> seb128: how odd, I thought you were here :)
<seb128> sorry for being late I was working and not looking at the clock
<kwwii> seb128: must not be important enough ;-)
<Keybuk> mvo: just two, actually
<seb128> mvo: speaking about what?
<Keybuk> if we can't replicate the bugs, they should be marked Incomplete and de-tagged
<tedg> pitti: No, it wasn't.  I was surprised also, I was expecting to have to do a minimal terminal login.
 * mvo nods
<Keybuk> especially if nobody in this team can replicate them
<Keybuk> pitti & tedg: thanks for your work on gnome power manager so far
<mvo> Keybuk: I think I didn't assign myself to all compiz bugs as I had kind of hoped that macslow would be able to help here
<Keybuk> today is a *real* improvement for me
<Keybuk> mvo: sometimes they just need a quick review, and unassign/untag
<seb128> Keybuk: we got a new gpm uploaded?
<mvo> ok, I will do that today
<tedg> kwwii: I didn't follow up, are you cool with the screensaver stuff?
<Keybuk> seb128: I'm using the one out of ted's archive I think
<seb128> ah ok
<Keybuk> (which will obviously need sponsoring)
<Keybuk> and a UVF exception, I guess
<seb128> I've that on my todo since the backlight changes on ac are one of the thing really annoying on hardy
 * Keybuk tries to work out whether GNOME Power Manager comes under the GNOME UVF exception :p
<seb128> well, I'm not sure we want to change to this event based logic now and without upstream agreeing
<seb128> but that's really a meeting thing
<seb128> tedg: I need to speak to you about that ;-)
<Keybuk> ah, no, I'm actually using current hardy
<tedg> seb128: Richard has commented on the list, and he seems relatively happy with it.
<Keybuk> I was using ted's on the other laptop
<seb128> tedg: ah ok, I'm not on the list
<tedg> seb128: One change to get rid of the 5% buffer I put in.
<Keybuk> so both seem good to me
<kwwii> tedg: I haven't taken care of it yet, as I wanted to get the normal artwork in on time :-)
<seb128> I try to get a reply from him on the bugzilla bug for some weeks
<kwwii> tedg: I'll look into it and see what I can screw up on my own before annoying you with questions
<tedg> seb128: It seems you can get one reply if you post a message to the mailing list ;)
<seb128> maybe with some luck Keybuk will fix the udev dell bug too before beta *g* ;-)
<Keybuk> there's a dell bug?
<seb128> not dell, iwl3945
<Keybuk> yeah, it will be
<Keybuk> there's several degress of hackery to fix it
<seb128> the 30 seconds delay on boot thing
<Keybuk> sadly some of them break other devices
<Keybuk> ok, any other business today?
<seb128> Keybuk: do we know who is going to fosscamp? I still didn't book
<Keybuk> anyone who would like to go, can go
<seb128> I mean from upstream
<Keybuk> err, let me check
<Keybuk> UDSIntrepid/Sponsorships on s3cr3t wiki
<Keybuk> should have Accepted next to them if they've replied
<seele> you know.. the date of FOSSCamp isnt on the website
<seb128> ok, will look to that and book quickly, I don't want to get claire unhappy ;-)
<Keybuk> seele: yes it is ...
<Keybuk> http://www.fosscamp.org/
<Keybuk> Fri 16th / Sat 17th May 2008 - Corinthia Towers Hotel, Prague, Czech Republic
<seele> oh the home page
<pitti> seb128: anything we need/should discuss wrt. session startup speed?
<seb128> pitti: FIXIT
<seb128> pitti: I've talked to vuntz about it
 * seele was looking at the other three pages
<Keybuk> mdz spotted one
<ogra_cmpc> throw out all applets and autostart progs
<Keybuk> we start both gvfsd and gnome-vfs-daemon
<seb128> the best we can do probably right now is to add a StartupDelay= to the autostart desktop
<seb128> make gnome-session understand and apply the delay
<seb128> remove deskbar
<seb128> and disable tracker
<Keybuk> what about the gnome-systems-tool evil?
<seb128> mvo: how is nautilus-share going? ;-)
<ogra_cmpc> couldnt the printer applet be started by hal ?
<mvo> seb128: its fine, uploaded and ready - ftbfs because of glibc madness though
<seb128> Keybuk: I don't get the issue there and garnacho (upstream) has no real idea of what is going on there
<mvo> seb128: I will make the update-notifier change to run apt-check later today
<seb128> need debugging by somebody getting the slowness
<seb128> mvo: good
<Keybuk> ok, I'll see what's happening there
<seb128> anybody has an opinion about deskbar?
<seb128> I think we should remove it
 * Keybuk removed deskbar from his session quite a while ago
<seb128> we will stop tracker by TB decision
<kwwii> remove it
<ogra_cmpc> ++
<seb128> it doesn't understand firefox3 bookmarks
<seb128> and I think it' taking login speed for no real win without those
<pitti> seb128: deskbar seems to be quite broken ATM to me
<seb128> Keybuk: gvfs and gnome-vfs is an issue of not having the world ported to gvfs yet, not easy to fix
<pitti> I'd rather fix it, since it's cute, but people can still enable it if they want to
<seb128> pitti: ok, let's remove it from the default profiles and fix the issues
<Keybuk> ok, we seem to have reached a conclusion
<Keybuk> thanks everyone
<pitti> thanks all
<seb128> thanks
<ubuntu-geek> afternoon matthew
<forumsmatthew> hey u-g
<LaRoza> Hello everyone
<ubuntu-geek> hey laroza
<forumsmatthew> hi there
<LaRoza> Hello, it is my first time, so be gentle :)
<forumsmatthew> always
<forumsmatthew> you aren't richbarna, are you? lol
<ubuntu-geek> lol
<LaRoza> How did you know? I lied, I accepted and reported myself :)
<forumsmatthew> I think Mike is sick
<forumsmatthew> is jdong available
<ubuntu-geek> cool lets do this
<forumsmatthew> all set
<forumsmatthew> I'm pinging jdong to see if he is around
<forumsmatthew> no response
<LaRoza> Hope he's alright
<forumsmatthew> he's probably just busy
<forumsmatthew> MIT and all that
<forumsmatthew> I bet he's doing something fun like building a flying robot for class
<forumsmatthew> with laser eyes
<ubuntu-geek> Cool well our agenda is pretty light
<forumsmatthew> yeah
<forumsmatthew> two forum requests is all I see
<forumsmatthew> are
<LaRoza> Speaking of which...
<forumsmatthew> give it to us, girl!
<LaRoza> I would like to have a Web Development Forum setup in the Development and Programming section
<forumsmatthew> proposal
<LaRoza> For those who think it isn't related to Ubuntu see: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=723598
<ubuntu-geek> We've discussed that in the past and declined it. But its worth reconsidering.
<LaRoza> For server issues, or programming issues there are forums, but Web Development is more.
<LaRoza> Even me, I use Windows for web development and that is my only use of Windows, so it is specific to the OS.
<LaRoza> Some think it is art, server, programming, or other material. It would make sense to have a place for web related content. It is programming, art, and design, but there is a unique mix of elements
<LaRoza> That make the OS being used important.
<LaRoza> Development & Programming has several forums, one for generic Programming, so the specific field of web development would not be out of place, especially since there are many Ubuntu related issues and questions to be asked
 * LaRoza looks for something
<forumsmatthew> my only hesitation, and it isn't a big one, is the sheer number of forums we have, but as a subforum of Development & Programming, I might go for it
<LaRoza> Here is a part of the community opinion: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585863
<forumsmatthew> I can see the specific use case, and it would likely get more use than some of our current forums
<LaRoza> The Art and Design, Programming Talk, Cafe, General Help, and random other forums get posts that would be perfect for a Web Development forum
<LaRoza> So many begin with "I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but..."
<ubuntu-geek> Catching up reading..
<LaRoza> Plus, I am a web developer and only happen to see such threads by accident. It is difficult for me to help with my favourite aspect of computer
<forumsmatthew> I hate it when work interferes with my online life
<forumsmatthew> :)
<ubuntu-geek> my msg's arent working atm
<LaRoza> ubuntu-geek: The above poll has a joined thread, that wasn't there before. So there is a gap in time and content
<ubuntu-geek> i need to register with the nickserv :) weee
<forumsmatthew> gotcha, u-g
<LaRoza> maybe ug is nickbarna?
<LaRoza> richbarna*
<ubuntu-geek> shhh
<forumsmatthew> lol
<ubuntu-geek> well i dont remember my password
<forumsmatthew> Hey, look at me! I'm trolling myself!!!
<forumsmatthew> I think it is *******
<LaRoza> Happens to us all ubuntu-geek
<LaRoza> No, that is mine
<ubuntu-geek> anyways, matthew yes i think what you is fine
<forumsmatthew> Okay, via msg
<ubuntu-geek> Yep
<forumsmatthew> done
<ubuntu-geek> I've always kind of thought the Programming Talk forum http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=39 was a good general forum for any type of development talk. We could make it more clear. I think one we implement tags/prefixes our somewhat limited forums will blosum with new options.
<LaRoza> I did offer the solution as renaming Programming Talk to "Programming and Web Development"
<ubuntu-geek> matthew thoughts?  My first thought would be to keep the name the same but revamp the description.
<LaRoza> I think that would be slightly confusing. As most web developers don't consider themselves programmers.
<LaRoza> They seem to be either attracted to Art and Design, or Programming Talk.
<LaRoza> But writing CSS is neither "art" or "programming".
<LaRoza> He has been kidnapped!
<ubuntugeek> :) ok i had my nick wrong..
<ubuntugeek> Sorry about that
<ubuntugeek> Matthew?
<ubuntugeek> welcome back
<LaRoza> Everyone is leaving...
<forumsmatthew_> thanks, what happened?
<Technoviking> sorry
<Technoviking> just woke up
<ubuntugeek> No worries mike we started about 20 mins ago
<ubuntugeek> You should go back to bed :)
<LaRoza> Technoviking is mike?
<forumsmatthew_> are you feeling okay, Mike
<Technoviking> better
<ubuntugeek> Glad to hear it.
<ubuntugeek> We are having connection issues
<LaRoza> They are...
<Technoviking> sorry I missed the meeting
<LaRoza> you just missed the Web Development subforum proposal
<forumsmatthew_> aaagh, I can't stay logged in tonight
<forumsmatthew_> sorry if you didn't get my PMs LaRoza
<LaRoza> Use Opera...
<forumsmatthew_> now I can't send them from this nick
<forumsmatthew_> local ISP probably
<forumsmatthew_> anyone remember how to kill a zombie login?
<LaRoza> I did it once, but forget how.
<forumsmatthew_> yeah, me too. Where's pricey?
<Technoviking> forumsmatthew: you have to shoot the zombie login in the brain
<forumsmatthew_> braiiins!!
<forumsmatthew_> It's 10:40 p.m. here...
<LaRoza> 1840 here
<forumsmatthew_> did we finalize the proposal for the web development thing?
<Technoviking> +1 for me on a web development forum
<LaRoza> Yes, make it now
<ubuntugeek> OK so.. on the web development forum. My suggestion is we modify the programming description and leave the name. when we upgrade to 3.7 we can implement prefixes which will help define the area
<LaRoza> Would changing the name be too difficult?
<forumsmatthew_> I commented on that, but I don't think anyone saw it...so, again, I agree. With the new tagging feature in 3.7 this will be easier
<LaRoza> What is the "tagging" feature?
<forumsmatthew_> you can add "tags" to posts, telling people what the main idea is, then the tags are searchable as well as indexed
<forumsmatthew_> it should make stuff a lot easier to find
<ubuntugeek> CSS, php, asp, etc etc
<LaRoza> Like a title...
<forumsmatthew_> only better
<ubuntugeek> kubuntu, edubuntu, ubuntu etc etc
<LaRoza> Or is a predefined title/tag
<forumsmatthew> finally, I'm me again
<LaRoza> Prove it
<Technoviking> sounds good to me ubuntugeek
<LaRoza> About the tag thing, are they visible?
<LaRoza> Like the [SOLVED] things?
<ubuntugeek> Yes they are visable
<ubuntugeek> They will be displayed by the thread topic someplace
<forumsmatthew> I'll find the link for the vbulletin 3.7 new features for you to check out
<LaRoza> Cool, that is a good feature
<forumsmatthew> here it is, post #3 http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249460
<ubuntugeek> Yep it'll help us merge and clean up some forums
<ubuntugeek> and make it easier for users to find information
<LaRoza> That is cool. Look forward to it
<ubuntugeek> Good deal.
<LaRoza> Are the tags predefined, or user set? Or both
<ubuntugeek> predefined
<ubuntugeek> We'll probably ask for input
<LaRoza> Each forum would have their own?
<LaRoza> Cut that out Matthew.
<forumsmatthew> back again
<ubuntugeek> Yes, some might not have them it depends
<LaRoza> Cool
<LaRoza> Can't wait.
<ubuntugeek> Shall we discuss the second topic really quick? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=720483
<forumsmatthew> yeah
<ubuntugeek> I'm not really sure how this would fit in. It seems sorta general
<LaRoza> I really don't think it is needed...IMO
<forumsmatthew> I can see the benefit, but it is a small one, and I am against forum proliferation in general
<LaRoza> Are there a lot of questions on the subject?
<LaRoza> From what I followed, there isn't. (Not like Web Dev which has many such threads)
<Technoviking> in 3.7 we could have a "Enterprise" tag
<ubuntugeek> I haven't seen many.
<forumsmatthew> no, but it could be argued that is because people don't know where to ask...although I would tend not to agree with that
<LaRoza> No, they would ask
<LaRoza> Just like those lost in Web Dev
<forumsmatthew> enterprise tag: going where no tag has gone before
<LaRoza> lol
<forumsmatthew> I'm going to stick my neck out and say this was worth discussing, but I don't think it is something we need to do
<ubuntugeek> Mike, thats a good idea I would be ok with that.
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, Mike, I agree
<LaRoza> I don't, just to be difficult
<forumsmatthew> +1 on enterprise tag, -1 on new forum
<LaRoza> (actually, I do)
<ubuntugeek> But I think having a forum at this point wouldn't be beneficial the topic is pretty broad and the questions asked there would probably fit in another category.
<ubuntugeek> +1 on tag, -1 forum
<Technoviking> +1 on tag, -1 for new forum
<forumsmatthew> cool, we all agree
<ubuntugeek> Great!
<forumsmatthew> Pink forums and purple ponies for April first?
<ubuntugeek> You know it
<ubuntugeek> And maybe something extra too
<forumsmatthew> unicorns!! Please!?
<LaRoza> Cthulhu, please?
<ubuntugeek> hah
<Technoviking> Cthulhu unicorns
<forumsmatthew> with fairy wings
<ubuntugeek> Well guys I hate to wrap this up when the fun is just starting but my wife isnt feeling so well and needs me. Does anyone have anything else  to discuss?
<LaRoza> None for me
<forumsmatthew> I propose that ubuntugeek leave and take care of his wife
<Technoviking> http://sunfox.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/ubuntu-hello-cthulhu.png
<forumsmatthew> and I will go get some sleep
<ubuntugeek> Talk to you all later..
<LaRoza> I will go back on UF...
<LaRoza> See you.
<forumsmatthew> Technoviking, that is hysterical!
<Technoviking> and I will chase the nyquil dragon
<LaRoza> Did anyone actually succeed in seeing this whole room from start to finish besides me?
<forumsmatthew> not here. could you give me a log?
<Technoviking> nite
<LaRoza> How?
<LaRoza> Besides copying and pasting...
<forumsmatthew> copy/paste in the staff forum or via pm, I'll clean it up for official posting
<ubuntugeek> see you guys later
<LaRoza> Done, except for this sentence.
<LaRoza> See you
<forumsmatthew> goodnight, all!
<ubuntugeek> Mike feel better
<forumsmatthew> and thank you!
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, +1
<LaRoza> All of you get good clients and stay connected!
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-03-14
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Mar 21:00 UTC: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team
<hellboy195> hello everybody :)
 * pochu waves
<ScottK> Are starting?
<ScottK> .. we ..
<siretart_> hi folks
<hellboy195> hoi :)
<ScottK> It'd be nice if someone who has it handy would throw in the link to the agenda.
<pochu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<ScottK> Thanks
<pochu> np
<LaserJock> anybody here?
<ScottK> No
 * siretart hides
<ScottK> We haven't started yet
<hellboy195> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:07. The chair is hellboy195.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<hellboy195> ah
<hellboy195> What have I done xD
<ScottK> You're in charge now.  Lead the discussion.
<siretart> hellboy195: you volunteered to chair the meeting! thanks for that! :)
<ScottK> We aren't kidding.
<hellboy195> I'll try
<hellboy195> Welcome to the MOTU Meeting for 14th March 2008.  The agenda is available on the wiki.
<hellboy195> Already kindly posted by pochu
<hellboy195> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<hellboy195> so let's start
<hellboy195> should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship?
<hellboy195> I'm no motu. so please talk ^^
<siretart> question: is this question supposed to be decided here, or do we gather opinions from attendees?
<pochu> That's LaserJock's topic
<crimsun> keep in mind there are also edubuntu and kubuntu members  IIRC
<hellboy195> siretart: I think it should at least discussed here
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> I thought it was already kinda settled
<ScottK> I like the idea of MC being able to give out membership with becoming MOTU, but also before so that if someone meets the criteria for membership, but isn't ready to be MOTU yet.
<LaserJock> the idea is that Membership is a lower bar than MOTUship
<pochu> ScottK++
<LaserJock> so people should be becoming members before MOTUs
<LaserJock> just as a general rule of thumb
<ScottK> I'd say it might be concurrent.
<LaserJock> if somebody just hasn't gotten around to it then concurrent membership/MOTUship is fine
<ScottK> But right now MC can make a MOTU (which also makes them a member), but hasn't done just member.
<LaserJock> but this should be a way of recognizing good work in MOTU
<LaserJock> without feeling like MOTUship needs to be granted
<LaserJock> and it also allows the MC to see a candidate twice
<LaserJock> gives them a better feel for the person before the MOTU application
<ScottK> Agreed.
<siretart> Think of this case: A (more or less) known Debian Developer decides he wants to upload 'his' packages to ubuntu. so he hangs around on our mailing lists, helps out on IRC channels, does malone work etc. If he asks for upload priviledges, should we refer him to the CC first?
<ScottK> siretart: I think this is for a decision.
<LaserJock> siretart: he doesn't go to the CC, but to the MC
<ScottK> siretart: I think that what's on the table is MC also giving out the membership.  CC is trying to get out of the member business
<siretart> LaserJock: that would imply the MC is able to grant ubuntu membership status, because that is a prequisite of ubuntu developer status, right?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> which basically has been implied from the beginning of the MC
<ScottK> Agreed.
<ScottK> I believer that the CC has explicitly said this.  It's not just an inferred ability
<siretart> well, I agree that this is a good idea. I don't know if the MC is already empowered to do that, but if not, I personally think if would be a good idea to empower the MC then
<LaserJock> yes, it has recently been reaffirmed by the CC
<siretart> ok. great then!
<hellboy195> Accepted?
<LaserJock> it has alway had the power in that MOTUship automatically gains Membership
<LaserJock> but it has now been explicitly given I believe
<pochu> hellboy195: I think you can [VOTE] it when the discussion is over ;)
<ScottK> I think we ought to have a vote.  Do we need more disscussion?
<LaserJock> one sec
<hellboy195> pochu: thank you. I'm doing it the first time ^^
<LaserJock> let me find the email
<hellboy195> pochu: I think I have to set the topic first? :)
<LaserJock> this is what was OK's by the CC: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/GrantingMembership
<LaserJock> *OK'd
<pochu> hellboy195: I'm not sure, but you can set it anyway ;)
<hellboy195> pochu: ^^ k. tell me if you need a vote :)
<LaserJock> so I guess we can vote to affirm that?
<hellboy195> [TOPIC] should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship?
<MootBot> New Topic:  should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship?
<hellboy195> [VOTE] should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pochu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pochu. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<LaserJock> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<siretart> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from siretart. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<ScottK> That means that MC can grant membership separately, right?
<LaserJock> yes
<ScottK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<DktrKranz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from DktrKranz. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<hellboy195> who and how many can vote?
<pochu> I was just wondering that, but if it doesn't we need another vote ;)
<pochu> I guess any MOTUs, not sure about MOTU wannabes
<hellboy195> PLEASE VOTE IF YOU HAVEN'T!
<LaserJock> We are making Membership a requirement of MOTUship and letting MC grant Membership before and up-to MOTUship
<ScottK> Voting if for MOTUs, IIRC.  Anyone is welcome to be involved in the discussion.
<pochu> LaserJock: alright. Looks like we have an agreement ;)
<LaserJock> excellent
<ScottK> crimsun: I'm curious that you haven't voted?
<hellboy195> LAST CHANCE
<hellboy195> But I think it's clear
<hellboy195> ^^
 * ScottK would prefer we wait a moment for crimsun
<hellboy195> k
<crimsun> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from crimsun. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<crimsun> (sorry, this window's not active)
<hellboy195> OK
<hellboy195> [AGREED] Ubuntu Membership should be a general requirement for MOTUship. MC grant Membership before and up-to MOTUship.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Ubuntu Membership should be a general requirement for MOTUship. MC grant Membership before and up-to MOTUship.
<ScottK> hellboy195: You need to ENDVOTE too.
<hellboy195> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<hellboy195> ScottK: thx
<hellboy195> Next Topic
<hellboy195> [TOPIC] Should we establish some "u-u-s days" to clear u-u-s queue as much as possible before release day? LucaFalavigna
<MootBot> New Topic:  Should we establish some "u-u-s days" to clear u-u-s queue as much as possible before release day? LucaFalavigna
<hellboy195> DktrKranz: maybe you want to say something
<DktrKranz> I would like to propose a couple of days to review patches in ubuntu-universe-sponsors queue
<DktrKranz> similar to what we do for REVU days
<LaserJock> how many "Days" do we have so far?
<pochu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-universe-sponsors/
<pochu> hellboy195: ^ can you link it?
<hellboy195> pochu: sure
<pochu> LaserJock: there's none afaik
<hellboy195> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-universe-sponsors/
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-universe-sponsors/
<LaserJock> well, we have REVU Day
<pochu> It was every Monday for REVU days, we could do the same for u-u-s now that we are not doing REVU
<LaserJock> Hug Day
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, hardy release is scheduled for april 24th, so we have 3 weeks at least
<ScottK> We aren't doing review days right now, so it doesn't conflict with that.  I think that's the only one we have
<pochu> LaserJock: right, I mean there's none for u-u-s yet
<LaserJock> I'm taking about general " * Day" programs
<ScottK> You can figure on being ablet to upload for Universe up to at least Sunday before the release.
<DktrKranz> so, if we plan to have one a week, we can schedule three of them
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> an alternative would be to have more targeted days
<pochu> On the other hand, putting them on Mondays would mean it's just until Hardy is released... so a different day would be a good idea to get it continued in Intrepid
<LaserJock> rather than "clear the queue" it's "Let's hit RC bugs closed in Debian" or "FTFBS" or some such important thing that needs to be done
<pochu> well, that would be a different topic, wouldn't it? ;)
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, unluckily, we miss tools for that actually :(
<LaserJock> right, I'm just saying
<pochu> ah, ok
<DktrKranz> ubuntuwire is down
<LaserJock> that that might be a better way to figure out days
<LaserJock> well then we need to find other hosting for it
<geser> my FTBFS list is now temporarily also on another host
<LaserJock> throw it in a wiki page, I don't care :-0
<LaserJock> just get'er done!
<geser> I've added the URL already to the wiki page
<LaserJock> geser: awesome
<LaserJock> so if we had a general u-u-s clearing day to start with
<geser> if I could also remember which page it was :)
<DktrKranz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO
<LaserJock> then a couple topic days
<geser> yes, that was the page
<DktrKranz> we can restore RC bugs, we need ajmitch around for that
<LaserJock> ok so there's also "really-fix-it"
<hellboy195> hoi sistpoty
<sistpoty> hi hellboy195
<DktrKranz> really-fix-it: http://daniel.holba.ch/really-fix-it/
<LaserJock> not sure if the gfortran transition would be a candidate, but that's another idea
<hellboy195> sistpoty: I'm chairman. funny isn't it ^^
<ScottK> I just tried to call imbrandon and got no answer.
<geser> is ajmitch still around? have seen him active lately
<sistpoty> hellboy195: heh
<LaserJock> geser: he was around last night
<LaserJock> briefly
<sistpoty> (sorry, wanted to be here half an hour ago, but was on the phone, my ear is bleeding now *g*)
<DktrKranz> it's a shame we missed several QA tools for Hardy :(
<LaserJock> yes, but let's not let that stop us
<DktrKranz> of course not
<LaserJock> even a wiki page that's gets update maybe once a day or something would work
<LaserJock> so what needs to get done for Hardy?
<pochu> so we could have a few days for u-u-s queue and some more for specific topics, such as FTBFS or uninstallable packages?
<ScottK> We have the box that Dell donated running.  I'd say we ought to start using it under some temporary DNS name and quit waiting
<hellboy195> pochu: mind that too many are also not that good
<LaserJock> pochu: I think it's maybe better to define days around a specific topic rather than a process
<LaserJock> pochu: so we'll clear the queue as we're hitting a target
<pochu> LaserJock: right, the topic is "clear the u-u-s queue" :)
<LaserJock> but 1 general queue day may be needed to start with
<LaserJock> but that's not a very interesting topic
<hellboy195> lol
<LaserJock> we do need to clear the queue, but the point of all of this is to get something done
<LaserJock> FTBFS, or really-fix-it, or ...
<pochu> well IMHO 61 bugs in the queue mean 61 contributions we don't have in the archive
<geser> ScottK: isn't Fujitsu running a rebuildd already there?
<pochu> they be bug fixes, updates, merges, syncs or whatever
<LaserJock> I know I know
<ScottK> geser: I'm not sure.
<LaserJock> that's why I said the first should be a general clear the queue day
<geser> ScottK: http://builder.ubuntuwire.qeuni.net:9998/
<LaserJock> but we should frame the efforts around a topic that needs to get done
<LaserJock> because we have a lot to get done
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, currently we have the queue, FTBFS, NBS available, we can arrange to add RC bugs and debcheck
<DktrKranz> so, there will be chance to have a look at several aspects
<LaserJock> I'd say having 2 days a week might be good/possible
<DktrKranz> I think so
<LaserJock> try to get some focus around some problems before Hardy's out the door
<DktrKranz> geser, any chance to run piuparts/upgrade testing?
<LaserJock> so things we need:
<LaserJock> 1) date
<LaserJock> 2) to do list
<LaserJock> 3) MOTUs around to clear the queue
<LaserJock> 4) promotion and energy
<geser> DktrKranz: does piuparts work now in hardy? last I did a quick look at it (some months ago) I had problems get it running
<DktrKranz> geser, I merged it and it seemed functional
<hellboy195> so folks. in generel. Introduce a u-u-s day?
<hellboy195> or do we need a vote?
<ScottK> Technically we should vote.
<ScottK> And are we voting on one or two per week?
<DktrKranz> I'd say two, so we'll cover many bugs
<hellboy195> ScottK: good question
<pochu> one or two u-u-s days, or general days?
<pochu> I guess the latter
<LaserJock> pochu: I really think they are intertwined
<LaserJock> my fear would be that maybe calling it "u-u-s Day" would turn on non-MOTUs
<LaserJock> *off
<LaserJock> I think getting things done in general means also clearing the queue
<pochu> Ok, I'm concentrating a bit in the current topic
<pochu> which is "whether to schedule some days to clear the u-u-s queue"
<LaserJock> right, but my point is that maybe that's not exactly the topic that we should be discussing
<siretart> LaserJock: how can non-MOTUs help with processing the u-u-s queue?
<hellboy195> siretart: fill it
<LaserJock> siretart: they can't really, hence my objection to just calling it u-u-s day
<LaserJock> u-u-s is merely a process thing
<siretart> well, that's what we actually want to acheive, no?
<LaserJock> I say no
<ScottK> Fix it day?
<LaserJock> we want to achieve is fixing things
<siretart> hug dholbach day?
<LaserJock> u-u-s is certainly a part of that
<hellboy195> DktrKranz: any suggestion?
<LaserJock> but my concern is that if we focus too much on the process rather than the larger target
<LaserJock> to start with it'd sure be nice to have a clean queue, so spending one day on just that seems worthwhile
<LaserJock> but more broadly, we need to figure out what things *need* to be done before Hardy is out the door and make sure they get done
<LaserJock> right?
<DktrKranz> "MOTU Hug days", as we had in the past sounds good to me, but naming it is not high-prio, is what we can do that will count
<LaserJock> pochu: so what about "Sponsorship Days"?
<LaserJock> first one being general and then targeted ones thereafter?
<LaserJock> does that address your specific concern?
<pochu> I don't care for the name, but the first for u-u-s clean up sounds good, yes
<hellboy195> pochu: Sonsorship Days?
<siretart> 'reviewing days'?
<hellboy195> ok
<hellboy195> the name isn't important
<jussi01> Ubuntu love days :)
<LaserJock> I mean, most of the queue right now is python-xml
<LaserJock> and there's not that many really
<geser> siretart: wouldn't that make people exect REVU reviews?
 * persia is catching up, but worried that special days may reduce daily effort
<LaserJock> persia: do you think that's bad?
<hellboy195> persia: heya
<siretart> geser: well, we are in feature freeze, so u-u-s has clearly priority. and since chances are low to get it cleared, we won't really have time to look at REVU
<crimsun> at this point in the release cycle, I'd be more concerned about getting stuff _into_ the queue.  Is there a plan for testing dist-upgrades from dapper and gutsy?
<hellboy195> persia: I'm chairman. Would you mind helping me a little bit (First try ^^)
<siretart> so just reusing REVU days seems natural to me
 * sistpoty isn't sure in general about if special days are good or bad, but sispoty must admit to never fit his ubuntu work to current days
<persia> hellboy195: You're doing fine
<hellboy195> persia: thanks
<persia> LaserJock: Yes, I think daily effort is important to keeping the queue mananagable
<LaserJock> persia: well, I guess that's maybe my point though about not focusing on the queue but rather the target
<hellboy195> LaserJock: when did it start with python-xml remobals?
<hellboy195> *removals
<LaserJock> the queue should pretty much work itself out if we're focusing on getting things done, right?
<persia> Well, except people need to look at it :)
<LaserJock> well, they have to have a *reason* to look at it
<LaserJock> hence having targets
<crimsun> why not roll the 5-a-day?  Your 5 daily could be u-u-s targets.
<LaserJock> crimsun: nice
<persia> crimsun: That already counts
<ScottK> One question I have is are we after more sponsorship or more stuff to sponsor?
 * persia wants both
<DktrKranz> my 5-a-day is filled mostly with u-u-s bugs :)
<LaserJock> I want us sponsoring the stuff that matters
<LaserJock> I don't really care to sponsor typo fixes and let FTBFS go
<hellboy195> LaserJock: I suppose typo fixes aren't that hard to review and don't take a long time
<LaserJock> no, but it's distraction and waste
<LaserJock> and often can take just as long as a FTBFS
<hellboy195> LaserJock: I agree with you to do only stuff that matters
<persia> LaserJock: Surely that decision can be made by an individual sponsor, no?
<LaserJock> persia: but if the quest is to "clear the queue"
<ScottK> I'd say the quest is clear the queue of anything useful.
<persia> LaserJock: Sure.  I guess I'm advocating more quests, with "clear the queue" as a minor one.
<LaserJock> persia: I agree totally
<LaserJock> how many bugs are we looking at right now to clear the queue?
<LaserJock> ~30 or so?
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: REVU Coordination Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team
<ScottK> Speaking of which, I was talking with ajmitch in IRC today and he said he isn't running his RC tracker this release in part because he thinks it's redundant.  I'd appreciate a pointer on what it's redundant to so I can use that?
<DktrKranz> ScottK, I'm not aware of something similar than browsing at MoM or DaD for changelog entries
<persia> I found it immensely useful in determining which merges need focus post-feature freeze
<ScottK> His other reason was no static IP.
<LaserJock> it's a difficult list to come by
<persia> LaserJock: Currently 62.  It starts being considered large after ~30
<LaserJock> but maybe an approximation
<ScottK> Maybe someone could convince him to help set it up on our new box?
<siretart> ScottK: if the static IP was the problem, I think that could be arranged
<LaserJock> persia: but not all of those are in need of action? usually there's "cruft"
<DktrKranz> ScottK, if it's not so bandwith-consuming, I can have a static IP
<LaserJock> it takes being a DD I believe
<persia> LaserJock: Quite possibly.
<pochu> those python-xml removal shouldn't be there for example
<pochu> at least not all of them, perhaps one or two :)
<ScottK> siretart: Would you be willing to follow up with him?
<LaserJock> if we can have him run the cron and scp the results somewhere that might work
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so I think we're all agree we need a "clear the u-u-s queue" day
<siretart> ScottK: I haven't caught him for a while now, but I'll be happy to talk to him about that
<LaserJock> shall we vote real quick to get that down?
<hellboy195> I think so
<hellboy195> LaserJock: so what do you want excatly to be voted?
<ScottK> siretart: Please do.
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> pochu: what do you think?
<LaserJock> I was thinking we can just vote to have a single u-u-s day ASAP
<LaserJock> and then deal with the other targets maybe on ubuntu-motu
<hellboy195> LaserJock: single or two?
<persia> I'd be in favor of a one-off UUS day to chase things, and then going back to normal, but not a regular UUS day.
<LaserJock> I think a single would clear the current queue
<LaserJock> then have targeted days for FTBFS, etc.
<hellboy195> DktrKranz: can you live with only one day?
<LaserJock> where I think we can emphasize that we need MOTUs to clear the queues on that day
<DktrKranz> hellboy195, I think we can :)
<hellboy195> [VOTE] Do we need a (single) "clear the u-u-s queue" day?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Do we need a (single) "clear the u-u-s queue" day?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<LaserJock> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<DktrKranz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from DktrKranz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<sistpoty> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<hellboy195> crimsun: vote :)
<pochu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pochu. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<ScottK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<hellboy195> I don't think we need more?
<pochu> we are consuming persia's time as he has a REVU coordinator meeting right now :)
<hellboy195> ^^
<persia> hellboy195: Likely not, as there aren't any negative votes (and we ought start the next meeting)
<hellboy195> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7
<pochu> so we schedule a u-u-s clean up day, then we have some bug days?
<hellboy195> [AGREED] We need a single "clear the u-u-s queue" day.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  We need a single "clear the u-u-s queue" day.
<DktrKranz> For other goals, we can send out a mail as persia did at the beginning of Hardy cycle
<hellboy195> ok. what next?
<hellboy195> define the day?
<persia> We could even send separate mails for each goal.
<persia> DktrKranz: Would you be willing to schedule and announce the UUS day?
<DktrKranz> persia, I'll do
<LaserJock> I think we could use an email to ubuntu-motu just kinda kicking around idea for targets
<LaserJock> "what's important, do we have the lists we need, etc."
 * persia hears someone volunteering to send mail
<hellboy195> [ACTION] DktrKranz to schedule and announce the UUS day
<MootBot> ACTION received:  DktrKranz to schedule and announce the UUS day
<LaserJock> I'll volunteer if people think it's a good idea
<pochu> sounds good
<hellboy195> [ACTION] LaserJock to send out an mail to ubuntu-motu.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  LaserJock to send out an mail to ubuntu-motu.
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> that's kind of a general action
<hellboy195> hm?
<pochu> you send it and we answer ;)
<persia> It was a general proposal :)
 * LaserJock sends out a letter explaining the benefits of cavity ringdown spectroscopy as an effective means of determining rotational orientation in surface adsorbed molecular motors
<hellboy195> ah ^^
 * sistpoty won't review your paper, LaserJock :P
 * pochu agrees whatever that means :P
<LaserJock> sistpoty: dang
<hellboy195> so. folks. what's next
<geser> sistpoty: if you understand everything from it then LaserJock should redo it :)
<hellboy195> are we finished with this topic?
<sistpoty> geser: I understood "letter" and "explaining"
<LaserJock> hellboy195: yes and we are out of time I believe
<hellboy195> ah
<hellboy195> Agenda is empty. any new topic. FAST?
<LaserJock> let's kick some butt and make Hardy ROCK!!!
<hellboy195> ^^
<hellboy195> ok then
 * ScottK2 understood sends too.
<hellboy195> [TOPIC] Next MOTU Meeting Date
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next MOTU Meeting Date
<persia> I thought we agreed on a rotation, making the next 12:00 UTC 28th March.
<sistpoty> two weeks from now, regular rotation?
<hellboy195> persia: sry. Didn't know that
<sistpoty> oh, did we have 4.00 utc last time, persia?
<sistpoty> (or was this time dropped)
<persia> Err..  I always forget that one.  Sorry.  04:00 UTC
 * pochu out for dinner
 * RainCT is sorry for being late
<hellboy195> [AGREED] Next meeting 04:00 UTC 28th March.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting 04:00 UTC 28th March.
<hellboy195> Any last words?
<ScottK2> Thanks to hellboy195 for chairing.
 * DktrKranz must leave now. I'll read backscroll
<hellboy195> DktrKranz: bye
<hellboy195> ScottK: hmm. I hope it wasn't that bad :\
<hellboy195> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:25.
<sistpoty> thanks hellboy195!
<persia> thanks hellboy195
<hellboy195> yeah np ^^
<LaserJock> hellboy195: good job
<persia> OK.  On to the next meeting...
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 21:26. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> [TOPIC] REVU Coordinator
<MootBot> New Topic:  REVU Coordinator
<persia> There have yet to be any public applicants for the position: are there any last-minute applicants?
<LaserJock> hmm, perhaps a quick overview of what the position entails?
<siretart> stupid question: do we have a wiki page for this meeting?
<persia> LaserJock: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-February/003362.html
<persia> siretart: No.
<persia> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-February/003362.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-February/003362.html
<LaserJock> would this position perhaps be encompassed within REVU admins?
 * sistpoty would first like to announce, that revu-hackers have a new motivated member, RainCT, who has been fixing some stuff recently and will now help to keep the codebase clean and shiny :)
<LaserJock> I'm wondering if we don't get a lot of interest
<persia> Not really.  The REVU admins tend to maintain the box, but don't necessarily have time to track the status of packages in REVU.
<LaserJock> k, thanks
<RainCT> :)
 * jpatrick hugs RainCT 
 * siretart hugs RainCT 
 * RainCT hugs jpatrick and siretart back :)
<persia> RainCT: Thanks for your help.  It's getting better with every update :)
<hellboy195> RainCT: congratulations :)
<RainCT> hellboy195: thanks
 * RainCT is thinking about if the 3th point from that e-mail (archiving old stuff) could be done automatically
<persia> RainCT: certainly
<persia> Likely the fourth as well, perhaps with rmadison
<RainCT> ok, I'll look at that next week (tough removing them *completely* is afaik not possible with a script)
<persia> So, with the job now expected to be easier, who wants it?
<LaserJock> I would love to if I had time :(
<LaserJock> stupid PhD
<persia> Would anyone like to help LaserJock, making this a team effort?
<sistpoty> RainCT: 4 can't be done by the web-ui, but by a script run as root, I guess?
<sistpoty> persia: hi PhD? :P
<sistpoty> his even
<persia> sistpoty: No, REVU Coordination :p
<LaserJock> me and my PhD rocking REVU
<RainCT> lol
<LaserJock> I could use some help on my PhD though
 * persia thinks that would be a different meeting
<LaserJock> anybody good with laser spectroscopy? :-)
<RainCT> sistpoty: yes, but this would need an additional cronjob then... well, cronjobs aren't evil, and it even makes more sense to have it in a separate script :) (I was first thinking about adding it to the script that processes uploads, but I see now this wasn't anyways a very good idea)
<sistpoty> RainCT: either cronjob, or run manually
<RainCT> sistpoty: anyway, we're spamming persia's meeting ;)
<sistpoty> sorry
<persia> Does nobody want to be REVU Coordinator?  If so, do we want one?
<LaserJock> well, considering the turnout, would it be better to ask when we fire REVU back up for Intrepid?
<LaserJock> I'm wondering if people are focused enough on Hardy right now that there may be more interest then?
<sistpoty> yes, I also assume that at the beginning of intreped might be a good time to discuss revu coordination again
<persia> LaserJock: Maybe, although it might be nice for whoever gets it to have a month or so to work with the REVU hackers to make sure REVU works for their plans.
<LaserJock> true
<persia> So, due to lack of volunteers, I'll be raising the option of not having a REVU Coordinator in the next MOTU Meeting.  Anyone reading backscroll who wishes to hold the position: please make yourself known before then.
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:49.
<RainCT> perhaps if the position had less responsabilities there would be more people (or rather, someone) interested
<persia> RainCT: True.
<persia> On the other hand, the duties are mostly: talk to MOTU, talk to MOTU admins, review stuff, encourage other reviewers, and send a report of stuff that was approved.  Time consuming, but I'm not sure how to break it into smaller parts.
<RainCT> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/59624/plain
<persia> RainCT: Good points.  I'll include that in my mail reporting on the meeting.
<RainCT> (spamming the meeting again, I'm planning to redesign the table in which the comments on REVU are shown, but I'm not sure how to do it yet. if someone has any idea, drafts are welcome :))
<RainCT> (ok, I think I've an idea now :P)
 * RainCT needs the name of some small packages
<sistpoty> RainCT: on revu?
<RainCT> no, in hardy
<sistpoty> RainCT: min12xxw is small (my usual test package)
<RainCT> sistpoty: thanks
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-03-15
<andrea-bs> @schedule europe/rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 19 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 22:00: Server Team
<bmk789> @schedule EST
<ubotu> Schedule for EST: 19 Mar 16:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 16:00: Server Team
<bmk789> @schedule EDT
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-03-09
 * lamont looks around for a mootbot howto
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-03-10
<MTecknology> I'm calling a meeting
<MTecknology> Everyone, say hi
 * MTecknology says hi
<MTecknology> meeting concluded
<MTecknology> sorry, it's just been so idle in here
 * persia looks about, wondering if it's this week or next week, as the wiki page hasn't been updated.
<persia> RIght.  Next week then.
<MaWaLe> sorry for asking : next week at what time?
<leoquant> @schedule
<leoquant> ?
<leoquant> @ schedule
<MaWaLe> leoquant: not updated !!!
<leoquant> :P
<persia> MaWaLe, I'm guessing 10:00, but I'm not sure.
<MaWaLe> thx persia & leoquant
<elky> persia, oh crap. sorry :(
<persia> elky, It's the nature of things, and two of us wouldn't have been enough anyway.
<elky> persia, lifeless was kind of around, but even that would have done us no good without yet another
<persia> Right.  I suspect that there were four of us around, but without our feerless leader to organise us, we're less than coordinated.
<kirkland> o/^
 * mathiaz waves
<sommer> yo
<ScottK> o/
<cjwatson> Hmm. Did the server meeting move?
<mathiaz> allright - let's get started.
<soren> o/
<persia> Isn't it 15:00 UTC?  Isn't this the TB meeting?
<cjwatson> I was expecting a Technical Board meeting here now
<mathiaz> cjwatson: hm
<cjwatson> there has been some timezone confusion due to the US moving to DST earlier than Europe
<persia> Yes, some parts of the world chose to adjust their clocks, but that's just those parts of the world.
<cjwatson> the Fridge calendar says 3pm TB 4pm server team, which I assume is either UTC or my local timezone (currently identical)
<mathiaz> last week I checked and the TB meeting had been moved to 14:00 UTC on the calendar
<mdz> is there a conflict?
<persia> Fridge calendar should be UTC.
<cjwatson> that was an error due to Google Calendar having no idea whatsoever about DST
<cjwatson> it was fixed earlier today
<mdz> persia: what time is your meeting usually?
<persia> mdz, Not my meeting.  I'm here for the TB meeting.
<ScottK> mathiaz: How about if we move to #uubntu-server
<mathiaz> yes - let's move to #ubuntu-server
<kirkland> ScottK: +1
<mdz> persia: sorry, I see
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> Keybuk: here?
<Keybuk> present
<mdz> sabdfl will not be attending
<mdz> [TOPIC] SRU guidelines for Landscape (robbiew)
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU guidelines for Landscape (robbiew)
<mdz> cjwatson: thanks for drafting a resolution for us
<cjwatson> I believe it is just awaiting your feedback now
<cjwatson> have you had a chance to read it?
<mdz> I have only just scanned it prior to the meeting, I'm afraid, having been traveling all last week
<mdz> I think it is fine
<mdz> the rationale strikes a good balance, sufficiently explicit without being cumbersome
<mdz> we will want to iterate on it further if and when we need to apply this to other cases
<cjwatson> be it resolved, then? if so, I'll take an action to send out mail about it and update the SRU documentation
<mdz> but I am prepared to support it as is for the current case
<mdz> [VOTE] cjwatson's proposed resolution regarding Landscape, <20090302122315.GK7367@riva.ucam.org>
<MootBot> Please vote on:  cjwatson's proposed resolution regarding Landscape, <20090302122315.GK7367@riva.ucam.org>.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> sabdfl said +1 in private mail
<mdz> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<mdz> [ACTION] cjwatson to document and announce Landscape resolution
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to document and announce Landscape resolution
<mdz> [TOPIC] Upload permission for Romain Francoise for emacs-snapshot
<MootBot> New Topic:  Upload permission for Romain Francoise for emacs-snapshot
<mdz> I'm not aware of any change here; jono is on holiday today and I don't have an update from him
<mdz> though I understand that the TB voted to do something similar for mdke recently
<mdz> so maybe it is worth revisiting?
<mdz> cjwatson,Keybuk: any thoughts?
<Keybuk> mdz: I still don't think he's shown anything necessary to meet the requirements
<dholbach> mdz: I could ask him to follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#PerPackage now that we have a process for it?
<cjwatson> Is there a recent refresher of status from the candidate?
<cjwatson> (as in, last few months)
<Keybuk> in particular, the developer concerned does not seem to be actively pursuing the application
<Keybuk> which was turned in by somebody else and not by then
<cjwatson> I know this has been on our table for some time
<mdz> dholbach: can you confirm whether or not they are actually still interested?
<mdz> IIRC the request was made by someone else on their behalf
<persia> dholbach, I'll take that one, given your status for the next two days.
<dholbach> persia: that's probably a good idea
<Keybuk> if I were to review the criteria
<Keybuk> based on the current application
<dholbach> mdz: I informed Romain when were discussing the process and he thanked us for looking into it - I'd take that as a "yes"
<Keybuk> it would a very solid -1
<dholbach> in any case I feel that the process with the list of requirements clearly depicts the way ahead
<mdz> Keybuk: how so?
<Keybuk> # have sufficient technical knowledge of the package(s) in question from documented work in the package through sponsorship, work in other distributions, or work upstream.
<Keybuk> he has had one, single, upload sponsored
<Keybuk> in other distributions, ie. Debian, he is not a maintainer of emacs or emacs-snapshot
<Keybuk> and I couldn't see any work from him upstream
<Keybuk> # have an understanding that such an access grant does not permit sole-maintainership, but rather the right to participate in the maintenance of the package as part of a team.
<Keybuk> since he has not been involved in his own application, I am unconvinced from him of any understanding of what it implies
<Keybuk> # have an understanding of the broad strokes of the release schedule, relevant freezes that would affect the package in question, and appropriate means by which to handle any exceptions.
<Keybuk> since he has no other activity in Ubuntu, I do not believe he has demonstrated this
<Keybuk> # need to show advocation and support of existing developers indicating that previous work on the package demonstrated that unsupervised upload is warranted.
<cjwatson> 15:13 <Keybuk> he has had one, single, upload sponsored
<Keybuk> the only sponsored upload he did was uploaded by siretart, who hasn't spoken about him fwict
<cjwatson> I think I would have to dispute the facts there
<Keybuk> # need to have documented previous concern for the packages in question in Ubuntu, including previous uploads, effective bug management, and similar previous work.
<Keybuk> none that I can see
<Keybuk> # need to show a history of effective collaboration with other developers in Ubuntu.
<Keybuk> none that I can see
<cjwatson> 'aptitude changelog emacs-snapshot' shows a long series of uploads from him
<Keybuk> cjwatson: those are syncs from debian, no?
<cjwatson> emacs-snapshot is not in Debian
<cjwatson> so they may be syncs from somewhere, but it isn't Debian
<Keybuk> the only upload I can see where he was sponsored by the usual procedure was 13 Oct 2008 of 1:20081013-1 into intrepid
<cjwatson> at least I think it is enough to demonstrate technical knowledge of the package in question
<mdz> Keybuk: he has maintained emacs-related packages in Debian, and is a Debian maintainer in good standing afaik
<mdz> http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-newmaint@lists.debian.org/msg01266.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-newmaint@lists.debian.org/msg01266.html
<Keybuk> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=rfrancoise&comaint=yes
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=rfrancoise&comaint=yes
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I'm not necessarily disputing your other points, but your general point of "doesn't seem to work on the package" doesn't stand up to detailed examination
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I didn't say he hasn't worked on the package
<Keybuk> I've said he hasn't met our criteria
<mdz> he is listed as a maintainer of GNU emacs upstream
<cjwatson> he has 155 uploads of this package listed in the changelog
<Keybuk> cjwatson: none of which have been made to Ubuntu
<Keybuk> unless Soyuz is lying to me
<cjwatson> I think the intent of:
<cjwatson> 15:12 <Keybuk> # have sufficient technical knowledge of the package(s) in question from documented work in the package through sponsorship, work in other distributions, or work upstream.
<persia> The log of bug #252328 may be interesting in this context
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 252328 in emacs-snapshot "please sync emacs-snapshot - 1:20080723-1 from the ubuntu-elisp PPA to intrepid" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/252328
<cjwatson> is to indicate work done on the package *somewhere*, wherever it may be
<cjwatson> Keybuk: Soyuz lies about changelogs. It's a known bug
<cjwatson> and a fairly high-priority one
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I'm reading the publishing history
<Keybuk> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/emacs-snapshot/+publishinghistory
<Keybuk> there have been no uploads in jaunty
<cjwatson> Soyuz is just not a reliable means to determine this sort of information
<cjwatson> unfortunately
<Keybuk> I disagree
<Keybuk> Soyuz knows perfectly well what is published where
<Keybuk> and when
<cjwatson> I agree that there have been no uploads in Jaunty
<Keybuk> this is not an area that it is deficient in
<cjwatson> but Soyuz is very little use at telling you who was responsible for particular uploads
<Keybuk> cjwatson: the changelogs and uploads are signed by siretart
<Keybuk> except for the top-most one
<cjwatson> it appears to me that Romain is maintaining the package in the ubuntu-elisp PPA
<cjwatson> and occasionally asking for sponsorship of snapshots from siretart
<Keybuk> then I would like to see siretart speaking on his behalf
<mdz> he did
<cjwatson> I concur
<Keybuk> and, most pointledly, I'd like to see some kind of interest from Romain himself in his own application
<mdz> dholbach just addressed that
<persia> So shall I tell Romain that he should follow the new process, and restart the application?
<mdz> persia: I think that would be a good way to get things moving again.  he could review the criteria and provide us with information about how he meets hem
<mdz> s/hem$/them/
<mdz> rather than us dredging launchpad etc.
<mdz> [ACTION] persia to request a new application based on the now-established PerPackage criteria
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to request a new application based on the now-established PerPackage criteria
<persia> That seems reasonable.  I'll do that, and bring it back to the TB once he has addressed the specific criteria.
<mdz> [TOPIC] codecs in ffmpeg (Reinhard Tartler)
<MootBot> New Topic:  codecs in ffmpeg (Reinhard Tartler)
<mdz> this is with jono at the moment
<mdz> he's getting advice to help formulate a policy
<mdz> I haven't caught up with him on it in the past 2 weeks due to travel and his holiday
<mdz> so, nothing to report
<mdz> [TOPIC] Governance changes in the context of Archive Reorganisation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Governance changes in the context of Archive Reorganisation
<mdz> cjwatson?
<cjwatson> I updated http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveReorganisation to account for the changes we discussed in Berlin (i.e. splitting the work into two parts and considering permissions first, so that we can move ahead with that while we figure out how to solve problems with the component changes)
<mdz> I believe this was said to be blocked on finalizing the design
<cjwatson> ArchiveReorganisation/Permissions now contains the work I expect to be possible in the near term
<cjwatson> I have a call with dholbach and jono on Thursday to discuss it
<cjwatson> it does involve some Launchpad changes still, but I've discussed those with Muharem and Julian and they're in progress
<mdz> cjwatson: is that a discussion call, or a decision-making call?
<mdz> i.e. what do we need to do in order to move forward?
<cjwatson> the next thing we need to do is determine what we're doing with social structures that rely on the split between core and MOTU
<mdz> and that's the purpose of the Thursday discussion?
<cjwatson> yes, and to thrash out expected timeline and the bits that still need planning from the community team
<mdz> ok
<mdz> anything else on this topic?
<cjwatson> not for the present
<mdz> [ACTION] cjwatson to discuss latest ArchiveReorganisation plan with jono and dholbach and agree a plan for governance changes
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to discuss latest ArchiveReorganisation plan with jono and dholbach and agree a plan for governance changes
<mdz> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<Keybuk> meeting time wrt to DST
<persia> I'd like to raise the question of meeting times and DST, given the start of the meting.
<mdz> right
<Keybuk> usually the meeting time is in GMT, shall we stick to this?
<mdz> my expectation is that the meeting time remains the same until/unless we change it through explicit discussion
 * siretart turns up
<persia> "the same" meaning GMT or UTC?
<mdz> this was apparently foiled by Google Calendar
<mdz> persia: "the same" UTC time
<cjwatson> mdz: remains the same in UTC, or in your/our timezone?
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> UTC is the one true global meeting timezone
<mdz> the fridge calendar is set to no-DST
<mdz> and so is the calendar where the event is
<mdz> so I don't know why it changed
<mdz> Google Calendar popped up and asked me if I wanted to change my time zone to GMT (which of course it already was)
<mdz> I am open to moving the meeting once BST starts, or not, it doesn't matter too much to me
<mdz> any issues with that?
<Keybuk> other meetings nearby seem to be in a mix of US time, GMT and UTC
<Keybuk> it surprised me that the server team meeting moved an hour earlier
<cjwatson> they were previously immediately after us, IIRC
<cjwatson> so I imagine that they suffered the same problem
<cjwatson> but perhaps have more US residents
<mdz> the server team meeting is now at different times on dendrobates' calendar and the fridge
<mdz> because they were separate events rather than invites
<Keybuk> note that Google Calendar has severely confused itself
<Keybuk> mdz moved this week's meeting back to 1500UTC
<Keybuk> in two weeks time it's at 1400UTC
<Keybuk> but in four weeks time, it's at 1500 BST because that's when the time warp ends and Google goes back to its usual service
<mdz> Keybuk: or is it? once BST starts it might move
<Keybuk> mdz: I'm looking at the raw iCal feed
<Keybuk> which gives UTC times
<persia> Note that it's still a different time for some of us, who may either not have DST, or have it on the other direction.
<mdz> Keybuk: what do we need to do in order to make it sane?
<Keybuk> and this is consistent with Google Calendar's past behaviour
<Keybuk> mdz: use something that's not Google Calendar
<Keybuk> sadly
<Keybuk> it appears to simply be a bug in their software
<mdz> I mean in the short term
<mdz> how do we fix the calendar to implement what we just agreed?
<Keybuk> you can't store UTC meetings in google calendar fwict
<mdz> sounds like we may need to move one meeting
<mathiaz> we've moved the server team meeting back one hour because I based my judgement on google calendar
<Keybuk> if you drag the meeting back an hour for four weeks, it'll fix it for the next 6 months
<mdz> ok, let's do that then
<mdz> any other business?
<Keybuk> so to confirm, next TB meeting will be at 1400 UTC, and 1400 UTC thereafter?
<Keybuk> ie. we're actually rescheduling it <g>
<Keybuk> (it's currently 1500 UTC)
<mdz> done
<mdz> no, I've put it at 1500 UTC
<Keybuk> for the next meeting?
<Keybuk> and the one after that at 1400 UTC?
<mdz> wait, BST starts when?
<Keybuk> 0200 29/03
<Keybuk> so between the TB meeting in two weeks time and the TB meeting in four weeks time
<mdz> so I've moved it on 24 March to 1500
<mdz> on 7 April, it currently shows 1500 as well
<mdz> but who knows what that will actually be once google is finished with it
<mdz> Keybuk: do you think we need to move it or not?
<cjwatson> you just have to monitor week-by-week
<cjwatson> in the real world it's the only sane way to keep meetings at the intended times across DST changes
<Keybuk> mdz: if we leave it as it is, the meeting in four weeks time will be at 1500 London time
<Keybuk> (BST)
<mdz> ok
<mdz> so we'll hold the meeting at the same time in 2 weeks, and after DST, I'll look at it and see if it needs to be changed
<mdz> anything else?
<mdz> thanks, all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:42.
<smb_tp_> Time for the weekly kernel-team meeting
<lieb> tis
<smb_tp_> #startmeeting
<smb_tp_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<smb_tp_> The above link points to today's agenda.
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is smb_tp_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<manjo> waves
 * rtg waves
 * cking waves
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] New Starters
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Starters
<sconklin> hi
 * ikepanhc waves
<cooloney> hi
<smb_tp_> We have two new people that joined us last and this week: Brad Figg (bradF) and Bryan Wu (cooloney). Welcome to both of you (again)!
<cooloney> waves
<cooloney> hello guys
<smb_tp_> Ok, that being said...
 * BradFigg waves
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels
<smb_tp_> Me
 * apw looks about 10% here
<smb_tp_> There are uploads planned to -proposed for Hardy and Intrepid. I summarized the current changeset for those uploads below.
<smb_tp_> == Hardy (proposed) ==
<smb_tp_> [kernel]
<smb_tp_> â¢ rt: Updated PREEMPT_RT support to rt27
<smb_tp_> â¢ fix apparmor memory leak on deleted file ops
<smb_tp_> â¢ KVM: MMU: Add locking around kvm_mmu_slot_remove_write_access()
<smb_tp_> â¢ serial: 8250: fix shared interrupts issues with SMP and RT kernels
<smb_tp_> â¢ 8250.c: port.lock is irq-safe
<smb_tp_> â¢ ACPI: Clear WAK_STS on resume
<smb_tp_> [LBM]
<smb_tp_> â¢ [R] SAUCE: compat-wireless: Fix module load for crypto modules
<smb_tp_> The one marked with [R] was reported as regression
<apw> smb_tp_, nice summary
<smb_tp_> This I would prepare soon to be uploaded
<rtg> smb_tp_: are you ready for an Intrepid LBM update? I'vve pushed with the latest compat-wireless
<smb_tp_> == Intrepid ==
<smb_tp_> [kernel]
<smb_tp_> â¢ SAUCE: ACPI: EC: Limit workaround for ASUS notebooks even more
<smb_tp_> â¢ [R] SAUCE: report rfkill changes event if interface is down
<smb_tp_> â¢ [R] SAUCE: floppy: Provide a PnP device table in the module.
<smb_tp_> â¢ fix apparmor memory leak on deleted file ops
<smb_tp_> â¢ KVM: MMU: Add locking around kvm_mmu_slot_remove_write_access()
<smb_tp_> [LBM]
<smb_tp_> â¢ scripts: Fix typo in prepare-compat-wireless.sh
<smb_tp_> â¢ Update MUNGE script for latest wireless-testing/compat-wireless
<smb_tp_> â¢ Update compat-wireless to master-2009-03-04
<smb_tp_> rtg, Yep, noticed it
<smb_tp_> There will possibly be a few more for intrepid
<smb_tp_> which just get SRUed today
<rtg> smb_tp_: I tried both iwl 3945 and 4965, they seemed to work well.
<smb_tp_> Sound promising but as with that screen black regression (which I am also fixing by reverting the
<smb_tp_> acpi changes, you never know until the whole bunch of hw has been tried outside
<smb_tp_> So we will revert the change for acpi integers for Intrepid to be on the safe side with binary gfx drivers
<smb_tp_> I think that would be all from me
<smb_tp_> There are two minor bullets on the agenda
<smb_tp_> * Archiving the Hardy/Intrepid OEM LPIA trees
<rtg> smb_tp_: don't we have to wait until after the kernel sprint in Lexington?
<sconklin> this will be deferred until after the sprint
<smb_tp_> apw, You added that?
<apw> smb_tp_, that was a direct copy from the previous week and
<apw> and had its discussion then, can be ignored for now
<smb_tp_> Ok, so we defer that until then, sconklin would that be an action for you?
<apw> we will discuss that at the sprint i am sure
<sconklin> my action, but not for a month
<smb_tp_> Ok, I'll just add it so it is not forgotten
<smb_tp_> [ACTION] sconklin bring up archiving of Hardy/Intrepid OEM LPIA trees after the sprint
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sconklin bring up archiving of Hardy/Intrepid OEM LPIA trees after the sprint
<smb_tp_> There was also the thing of movin Jaunty LPIA into distro kernel
<smb_tp_> I believe that happened... right?
<sconklin> I thought so, too
<rtg> smb_tp_: done, but the use of it is deferred until the OEM has tested
<rtg> OEM team*
<smb_tp_> Ok. Fine with me
<smb_tp_> apw, Anything else for stable kernels I forgot?
<sconklin> I'll take an action to coordinate testing by the OEM team for both hardy and jaunty lpia
<apw> sou
<apw> sounds like its all there... handy summaries both
<smb_tp_> [ACTION] sconklin coordinate testing by the OEM team for Hardy and Jaunty lpia
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sconklin coordinate testing by the OEM team for Hardy and Jaunty lpia
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
<smb_tp_> * Jaunty Alpha 6
<smb_tp_> rtg, Its comming, right :)
<rtg> smb_tp_: I'm uploading a kernel this morning with ARM updates
<apw> i assume the kernel basically closes today
<rtg> its got the Freescale patches, and yes, this is about it before A6
<rtg> I might get some Radeon patches in later today
<rtg> smb_tp_: thats it from me
<smb_tp_> Ok
<smb_tp_> * Suspend/Resume
<smb_tp_> apw, You wanted to do some updates how we stand?
<apw> i have been working some on the test scripts which have been pushed
<apw> to the checkbox repo ready to go
<apw> we should be doing another call-for-testing for A6, i assume
<apw> ogasawara_ will handle that as normal
<ogasawara_> apw:  yep
<smb_tp_> ok, so
<apw> assuming the checkbox changes get uploaded today (and they are meant to before A6)
<smb_tp_> [ACTION] ogasawara_ handle another call for testing for A6
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogasawara_ handle another call for testing for A6
<apw> then the defautl checkbox will include it, so desktop would have the test suite already installed
<cking> apw, are we seeing any new issues, or just more of the same?
<manjo> apw, mark was doing some work on checkbox this week
<apw> we may want to check that and update instructions if so
<apw> cking, almost everything coming in is generall brokenness all different
<apw> most are still not diagnosed with any specificity
<apw> there are some 116 reports and thats a huge heap to do anything senesible with
<apw> there is a fix for the pm-utils going in which helps with the suspend/resume
<apw> marking your network disabled
<apw> on the positive side
<apw> nothing else of interest that i can think of
<smb_tp_> ok thanks
<smb_tp_> * Vanilla Kernel Builds
<apw> nothing much there, one new kernel this week.  lots of use of them reported
<smb_tp_> We now have a page that links vanilla build versions to Ubuntu versions
<apw> yes, ogasawara_'s page has been sucked into the 'official' kernel user
<apw> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/info/kernel-version-map.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/info/kernel-version-map.html
<apw> that is updated regularly and should include new Karmic kernels when they appear
<ogasawara_> I'll redirect my existing page to the official one
<smb_tp_> Ok, so I think thats all on that
<apw> yep
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] ARM Tree
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree
<smb_tp_> amitk, Whats up
<amitk> just finished uploading patches to enable the freescale SoC
<amitk> imx51
<amitk> that should be it as far as ARM features for Jaunty our concerned
<amitk> s/our/are
<rtg> we'vev also added mv78xx0 for Marvell buildds
<amitk> rtg: though that isn't too useful w/o two VFP related patches
<amitk> to fix PREEMPT and floating-point issues
<rtg> amitk: bradF has 'em, we'll get them applied
<amitk> I believe BradFigg is onto it
<BradFigg> amitk: right
<smb_tp_> Ok, anything else to note?
<amitk> nothing else
<amitk> thanks
<smb_tp_> ok, thanks
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] LPIA Tree
<MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA Tree
<sconklin> Me
<smb_tp_> sconklin yeah
<sconklin> lpia is integrated into jaunty, and intrepid (I think). Hardy has a lpia branch.
<sconklin> oem folks will test hardy and jaunty, since those are where they will work from
<cking> are we deferring the hardy LPIA lrm until the sprint?
<sconklin> I'm keeping the distro tree lpia branch up to date (more or less) with what's in the netbook oem trees, and at the sprint we'll chage over to the distro tree
<lool> Kinf of lpia related, apw: NCommander tested your kernel with that jax10 patch; it works fine in both cases, but selects a different DMA mode with your patch; I've asked for stress testing both drivers and see how they perform
<sconklin> lrm and lum are also being looked at by the oem folsk for testing, I think. We'll finalize that at sprint
<apw> lool ok... let us know the outcome
<sconklin> Unfortunately, there is at least one development project which has a schedule that precludes moving it to the hardy distro tree at the sprint, we'll deal with it later.
 * cking nods
<sconklin> So we won't be able to entirely retire and archive the netbook repo
<sconklin> that's all I have
<smb_tp_> Alright, thanks
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] Incomming Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incomming Bugs
<apw> ogasawara_, is up
<ogasawara_> just a few to mention . . .
<ogasawara_> bug 328440
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 328440 in linux "general protection fault: 0000 during resume" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/328440
<ogasawara_> ^^ regression-potential
<ogasawara_> bug 322621
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 322621 in linux "Ubuntu 8.04.2 LTS fails on Dell Optiplex 960" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/322621
<ogasawara_> ^^ noted as Critical for Hardy
<apw> appears to be fixed?
<smb_tp_> I believe we are waiting on some feedback there
<ogasawara_> apw: for jaunty
<apw> silly ubbottu
<ogasawara_> bug 339743
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 339743 in glibc "Jaunty i386 popen() misbehaves on x86_64 kernel 2.6.26" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/339743
<ogasawara_> bug 336652
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 336652 in linux "Poor system performance under I/O load" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/336652
<ogasawara_> smb_tp_: that's it for now
<apw> the popen() one is possibly ok as we run audit and you can only hit it with a debian kerenl on your ubuntu system
<smb_tp_> Ok, thanks. apw and me will have a look at those
<apw> the poor performance is a hardware specific problem with asus or somethign h/w
<apw> which we have some of in house it seeems
<apw> smb_tp_, ack
<apw> ogasawara_, how is the incoming regressions looking?
<smb_tp_> [ACTION] apw and smb look through the bugs ogasawara_ mentioned
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw and smb look through the bugs ogasawara_ mentioned
<apw> the list is growing very quick all of a sudden
<apw> is this a real increase or a change in the way we track?
<ogasawara_> apw: I added regression-potential to the weekly bug list, which explains the slight increase in #'s
<apw> it feels like we are picking up about 5 regressions a week
<ogasawara_> apw: I haven't seen a large amount of growth in regressions, but I suspect that'll change as we approach final release and get more testers/bug reporters
<apw> ogasawara_, will you be sprinting?
<ogasawara_> apw: yes
<apw> then perhaps we can have some time to think about how we track etc
<ogasawara_> sbeattie: what's your feel for the incoming linux regressions?  I try to keep track of your regression tracking page
<smb_tp_> ogasawara_, Right, we possible could improve the layout a bit and perhaps split that lists
<apw> for instance i wonder if we could have a 'just linux' version of his pages ...
<smb_tp_> But the sprint is a good place to sit together
<apw> ack
<ogasawara_> apw: I usually sort sbeattie's list
<ogasawara_> apw: to at least group linux bugs
<smb_tp_> [ACTION] apw, ogasawara_ and smb_tp discuss regression lists at the sprint
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw, ogasawara_ and smb_tp discuss regression lists at the sprint
<apw> some how you find thigns may be all we need
<smb_tp_> Ok, sounds like all for that...
<smb_tp_> Then there are some leftovers
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] Open Action Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Items
<smb_tp_> â¢ last week
<smb_tp_> â unknown, add marker to calendar to show end of outside change acceptance
<smb_tp_> Anyone volunteering for that?
<apw> this was idea of putting in a marker two days before a milestone
<smb_tp_> right
<apw> to say that the kernel froze then, to encourage contributions to make it sooner
<amitk> i thought pgraner had access to that calendar, not us
<apw> i think we may be able to add things
<smb_tp_> me too I think
<smb_tp_> oops
<apw> perhaps its something we add as me go along, not sure
<smb_tp_> So
<pgraner> amitk: I know for sure rtg does
<apw> perhaps we can discuss at sprint if we are not sure its a good thing
<smb_tp_> [ACTION] smb add marker to calendar to show kernel freezes
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smb add marker to calendar to show kernel freezes
<smb_tp_> â pgraner, sconklin, awe to discuss OEM testing of lpia trees
<smb_tp_> I think that was going on at the sprint
<smb_tp_> â sconklin to create wiki page showing lpia source structure and repos for various releases
<smb_tp_> â¢ outstanding from previous week
<smb_tp_> sconklin ?
<amitk> smb_tp_: I added something before beta freeze
<awe> smb_tp: correct; we've talked a bit and I'm going to do some testing, however we're waiting for the sprint to switchover
<sconklin> nothing done, may defer until after sprint?
<smb_tp_> Ok, I just leave it on the agenda
<sconklin> or I'll do the distro side and then we can have that at the sprint
<smb_tp_> As it is better to handle for you
<smb_tp_> This is just the nag round, so we do not drop things
<smb_tp_> â apw to confirm the ack requirements for jaunty
<apw> not done that yet.  i am assuming one ack right now, but needing that ack for jaunty
<apw> rtg, is that fair to say
<smb_tp_> Me thinks we grab all available beings at the sprint as well and then document it
<apw> and i think we will have a session at the sprint any how on it all
<apw> ack
<smb_tp_> Ok, that were all remaining ones
 * rtg is distracted. Is what fair to say?
<smb_tp_> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<apw> that we now require acks, at least one for jaunty for commits
<rtg> apw: correct
<rtg> or rather, for the most part that is true.
<smb_tp_> There seems to be always a "mostly" :)
<smb_tp_> rtg, Which would be the exceptions then?
<rtg> well, the ARM stuff hasn't required an ACK, unless you count me pushing as an ACK
<cooloney> apw, what kind of ack we need
<apw> rtg yeah i would, thats amit plus you
<amitk> apw: I shouldn't be counted
<rtg> but apw is right, after A6 we should start an SRU ACK process for all Jaunty patches.
<cking> indeed
<apw> cooloney, now that jaunty is past ff, i am assuming i need acks
<smb_tp_> cooloney, We will discuss that process on the sprint as well
<cooloney> smb_tp_,  apw, thanks
 * cking wonders if there will be enough time at the sprint. the agenda could be tight
<smb_tp_> cking, There are beer time sessions ;-)
<rtg> cking: we could stay the weekend :)
<amitk> cooloney: basically every patch now needs to be sent to the mailing list, acked by two (one?) members of the canonical kernel team before they are added to the Jaunty git tree.
<smb_tp_> Right, back to open discussion
<cooloney> amitk, thanks got it, i assume we need upstream acks, -:))
<smb_tp_> Anyone has something to bring up?
<RumbleRed> Bluetooth compatibility fix.
<apw> nothing i can think of
<RumbleRed> The thing I posted to the mailing list.
<smb_tp_> RumbleRed, right, I am looking at it
<smb_tp_> Normally we wait until it has made its way to linus tree
<cooloney> amitk, could you double check with pgraner about the arm boards?
<amitk> yes
<cooloney> amitk, thanks
<smb_tp_> RumbleRed, But I look at getting it tested before. But possible not with the next proposed upload
<smb_tp_> Anything else?
<smb_tp_> So I would wrap it up here. Thanks all
<manjo> cya
<smb_tp_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:51.
 * rtg bows out
<cooloney> thanks a lot
 * apw wanders off into the weeds, hits some quick sand ...
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-03-11
<liw> yo yo, hula ring, and other greetings
<mvo> hello
<robbiew> waaaaazzzz uuuuuup! :P
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<evand> hi
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> hi
 * robbiew waits for others
<robbiew> mvo: cjwatson: liw: Keybuk: ready to go?
<Keybuk> ready
<mvo> yes
<liw> robbiew, sure
<robbiew> james_w: are you awake...in Brisbane, right?
<Keybuk> just turn off those 5 red lights and I'm off
<robbiew> heh
 * liw censors bad joke
<TheMuso> It would actually be an hour earlier for james_w than it is for me.
<TheMuso> So 2 AM.
<robbiew> ouch
<robbiew> ok...let's get started
<robbiew> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0311#Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0311#Agenda
<robbiew> so Alpha 6 is tomorrow...whoohoo :D
<cjwatson> sorry I'm late; my stepson left his cello in school which slowed the normal flow of events
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> now worries, just started
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Jaunty Alpha 6
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Alpha 6
<robbiew> so are those 4 bugs supposed to be fixed by tomorrow?...or pushed to Beta
<slangasek> the gnome-keyring one was targeted courtesy of the mobile team, and is assigned to one of their guys; I'll follow up on that
<robbiew> ok
<slangasek> since it's only been reported on ARM, we wouldn't need any rebuilds to get it "fixed" for alpha-6
<cjwatson> I meant to put bug 337306 off until beta, since my first attempt to fix it failed and I haven't had a chance to revisit; done now
<slangasek> ok, thansk
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 337306 in oem-config "oem-config task selection doesn't work with debconf-using packages" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/337306
<robbiew> well...none of the bugs seem to bad to me...moving on
<robbiew> well...100% CPU is a little nasty :P
<robbiew> skipping Feature Status update...I think we're fine there
<robbiew> 91 bugs targeted for Jaunty
<robbiew> no critical...that's nice
<robbiew> hi doko :)
<doko> sorry, a bit late (and I have to leave in a few minutes :-/
<robbiew> anyway...wanted to highlight the bug fixes report
<robbiew> doko: no worries
<robbiew> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/jaunty-fixes-report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/jaunty-fixes-report.html
<robbiew> has everyone..or anyone...seen this?
<slangasek> yes
<Keybuk> no
<robbiew> it's interesting...even has a "scoreboard" at the bottom
<Keybuk> seb is not winning!
<robbiew> though I don't really care about who fixes the most...as there's no way to measure difficulty
<cjwatson> I'm looking through the jaunty bugs and giving some more of them priorities
<robbiew> or complexity of the resolution
<robbiew> ok
<robbiew> cjwatson: ^
<robbiew> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/ubuntu-foundations-jaunty-fixes-report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/ubuntu-foundations-jaunty-fixes-report.html
<robbiew> gives a view of the team
<doko> have to look at the ca-certificates-java bugs, but I think most of these are already fixed
<robbiew> though poor liw is not represented...more incentive for upload rights
<robbiew> ;)
 * liw hangs head in shame
<robbiew> liw: all that means is someone is stealing your thunder :P
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Team Buglist
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team Buglist
<robbiew> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/ubuntu-foundations-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/ubuntu-foundations-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<robbiew> so the QA team has taken the time to document a workflow, for handling these bugs
<robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamAssigned
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamAssigned
<robbiew> I'd like to stress the use of the "ct-rev" tag
<Keybuk> I'm a little worried about the possibility that the assignment field is going to become a firehose
<robbiew> "If the team decides that it cannot realistically take responsibility for a given bug it should be assigned to Nobody (or a suitable community team) and the 'ct-rev' tag should be added"
 * ScottK grumbles about 'assignment to a suitable community team' again.
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> I have a sort of general concern about the workflow
 * robbiew is all for "Nobody"
<cjwatson> I think once a bug is Triaged then it ought to belong to developers to organise, not QA
<Keybuk> for me, the problem is that there are a lot of bugs which I'm the best person to deal with
<Keybuk> and most of them are on packages which I'm also the best person to deal with
<cjwatson> unless it is a customer priority or other major case requiring escalation
<Keybuk> and I tend to watch those packages
<Keybuk> so I already know about the bugs
<liw> Keybuk, we need to clone you, you're a SPOF
<Keybuk> and I use the assignment field to actually note which bugs I'm actively working on
<Keybuk> if all those bugs get assigned to me, I can't do that anymore
<Keybuk> it means as a developer, there is little left in Launchpad to help *me* manage my workflow
<Keybuk> all of the Launchpad bells, whistles and nobs have been taken over by QA
<Keybuk> and sidelined us
<cjwatson> I share this concern
 * doko is leaving now (worked from Daniel's place today, broken DSL). not sure if I will be online tonight
<Keybuk> if everything is assigned to me
<robbiew> cjwatson: Keybuk: would it be easier to assign to the Foundations Team
<Keybuk> and everything is in the Triaged state
<Keybuk> and the Importance is mandated already
<Keybuk> how do I manage my own todo list in LP?
<slangasek> Keybuk: you don't use 'in progress' to denote bugs you're working on?
<cjwatson> robbiew: I'd rather it be left unassigned, and that the Triaged state should be the responsibility of developers
<mvo> post-it notes
<Keybuk> slangasek: I use In Progress to mean I have at least a partial fix
<Keybuk> but that doesn't help with sorting
<robbiew> cjwatson: which developers? those watching the package?
<cjwatson> there is a sort of general assumption here that all bugs must be on track to be fixed in some kind of reasonably near-term timescale
<cjwatson> which is entirely fair for important bugs
<cjwatson> but I'm concerned that it leaves us with a hell of a lot of paperwork to do for bugs that just aren't that important
<cjwatson> but that shouldn't be expired
<robbiew> cjwatson: understand
<cjwatson> actually, I think I can articulate this more clearly
<cjwatson> there is a state not encapsulated in that document, which is "Canonical should spend time fixing this, but not in the near future"
<robbiew> cjwatson: good point
<cjwatson> if we implement that by assigning bugs anywhere (be it the foundations team or an individual developer), then (a) that clutters our lists (b) it discourages contributors from working on it
<cjwatson> but, according to that document, ct-rev + assignment to Nobody means that we aren't interested
<cjwatson> which isn't right
<robbiew> well...I think it means we (Canonical) won't fix due to resources...but would still like it resolved
<Keybuk> right
<cjwatson> well, look at lots of the qa-jaunty-foundations bugs
<Keybuk> and what Colin's saying is that there's another state
<robbiew> got it
<robbiew> bugs we want to fix, but not right now
<Keybuk> that we (Canonical) won't fix it _right_now_ due to resources...but would still like it resolved...and may have the resources later
<cjwatson> plenty of them are really old, and for the last half-dozen releases they've been in a "Canonical would like to fix this, but not yet" state
<cjwatson> I don't think we can change this by fiat, obviously, but should raise the concern with QA
<cjwatson> also, the page indicates that Triaged bugs may be re-triaged ("Mark as invalid, wontfix, incomplete, as a dupe, etc. i.e. triage it better")
<cjwatson> I would like to strongly object to this
<cjwatson> once it is Triaged, I find that further involvement by bug triage teams tends to be a net loss for me
<cjwatson> (cf. my recent blog post)
<cjwatson> a *developer* might choose to re-triage it if the triage was wrong, but I think this should be left to developers looking at the bug
<robbiew> agreed
<cjwatson> that said, I don't object at all to the QA team having a process that helps them assess Triaged bugs and flag ones that need urgent developer attention
<robbiew> cjwatson: Keybuk: I think you raise valid points...and encourage you to feed it back to QA ;)
<robbiew> fwiw, it's nice for me to be able to have something to help me gauge workload
<Keybuk> robbiew: what is the process by which we do that?
<robbiew> they are collecting "Feature" requests at the bottom of the page
<cjwatson> robbiew: I'm guessing, but I suspect you're more interested in near-term workload than "things Colin wants to work on next year" ;-)
<robbiew> cjwatson: heh, yes
<robbiew> just for when those fire drill assignments pop up
<cjwatson> and at the same time, I want to have a way to record things that I want to look at later, without getting in *your* way
<robbiew> it's nice to know who I should and probably shouldn't ask
<robbiew> understand
 * robbiew likes mvo's post-it solution (j/k)
 * mvo is actually using it that for some (short-term) items
<Keybuk> robbiew: there isn't enough room on my desk for posties
<Keybuk> too many netbooks
<mvo> it has the nice property that you can then throw the postit away when its done, a good feeling :)
<robbiew> Keybuk has a netbook cloud, tentatively called a "puff"
<robbiew> lol
<mvo> lol
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsoring Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsoring Queue
<robbiew> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<robbiew> it's there...we all know about it...some do more than others...enough said
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Karmic UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic UDS
 * liw uses GTD for keeping track of bugs, outside LP
<robbiew> I've created a page for session suggestions
<robbiew> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/May2009
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/May2009
<Keybuk> when a developer can no longer use the bug tracking system to keep track of bugs ... an EPIC FAIL has occurred
<robbiew> Keybuk: +1
 * slangasek needs to find a way to keep track of session ideas over the course of a release cycle; I had several ideas for Karmic UDS and can't find them in my brain now
<liw> robbiew, should we add topics to that page, or discuss them with you first?
<robbiew> liw: just add them
 * liw hits slangasek with the GTD book
<robbiew> liw: I'm subscribed
<liw> robbiew, ack
<slangasek> liw: I'm alluding to a desire to have them tracked somewhere other than on my local system though :)
<robbiew> slangasek: yeah...I kept a folder where I would put emails that had potential ideas
<cjwatson> robbiew: I assume that it's unnecessary to add things for which we're having requirements calls?
<robbiew> cjwatson: correct :D
<liw> slangasek, I stick to my answer ;-) but I'll postpone GTD fanboyism until after the meeting
<robbiew> I suppose we could for public consumption
<robbiew> cjwatson: ^
<cjwatson> probably good to start pushing 'em out
 * robbiew will update 
<robbiew> the last thing on my list is travel
<robbiew> a note should be going out today or tomorrow from our lovely admin team
<robbiew> the goal is to have all travel booked by end of March
<robbiew> so just a heads up
<cjwatson> for somehands/allhands/uds?
<robbiew> yes...all three
<Keybuk> does anybody know anybody who's going to this mysterious "somehands" ?
 * robbiew is...and cjwatson
<slangasek> next thing you know they'll be adding jazzhands
<Keybuk> followed by looknohands
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> I assume I'm needed at somehands because I'm organising one of the allhands tracks
<RainCT> lol
<Keybuk> cjwatson: no, it's because you get to live after the revolution
<robbiew> heh
<Keybuk> unless somehands is some heaven's gate-like event, in which case that statement would be entirely wrong
<robbiew> somehands is just those management type topics that most others would be bored with...nothing special
<robbiew> was a way to make sure we don't have a bunch of management meetings during Allhands
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News/AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News/AOB
 * robbiew noticed Keybuk got 25sec *with* compiz
<robbiew> whoohoo!
<Keybuk> robbiew: you're spying on me! :p
<mvo> I made some progress on the aufs based upgrade branch, I will post something to ubuntu-devel about it
<cjwatson> I would say that I think we've finally fixed the installer races, except that IIRC that was my good news last week too
<robbiew> heh
<liw> I note that we must be getting close to a release. My laptop, which runs the current release, has started behaving erratically. It always does this at the end of an Ubuntu release.
 * mvo did a successful upgrade of intrepid->jaunty on a aufs overlayed system, so everything was back to intrepid after the neext reboot
<cjwatson> ooh
<evand> hot
<slangasek> informal feedback this week is that Keybuk has sped up the boot to the point where it's faster to reboot a machine than to resume from hibernation
<slangasek> oops :)
<liw> slangasek, but I've had that for years :P
<Keybuk> I've sped it up sufficiently that you stare at a blank screen and mouse cursor longer than you see usplash ;)
<Keybuk> mvo: \o/
<mvo> Keybuk: out of curisoity, how much win was the protobuf stuff on the mini9?
<Keybuk> mvo: about 3s, so a third of compiz's start time
<mvo> cool!
<Keybuk> evand: random question, and I'm sure you get this one a lot
<Keybuk> evand: but I assume you have plans to fix the city locations in the u6y timezone map?
<evand> Keybuk: yes, made some progress on that recently, but more is needed.
<evand> London is currently sitting in the English channel.
<Keybuk> oh, for me London is on an off-shore Oil Rig in the North Sea
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:49.
<Keybuk> it did briefly occur that there's a wonderful Lost-related easter egg waiting to happen with that map...
 * robbiew gives you back 10min...enjoy! :P
<TheMuso> heh
<TheMuso> and thanks
<cjwatson> it's a map projection kind of issue. evand is busy committing stuff to ubiquity full of obscure floating-point arithmetic
<liw> thanks
<evand> :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: indeed, it looked like the new map was Mercator to me?
<Keybuk> which is a bitch to project onto :p
<evand> Miller
<cjwatson> Miller, I'm told
<slangasek> thanks all :)
<liw> evand, I will be curious to see if Helsinki has moved away from the radioactive coast of the Arctic ocean
<evand> lol
<cjwatson> evand: it actually reminded me slightly of the obfuscated perl raytracer I wrote some years back ;-)
<evand> haha
<Keybuk> The Miller cylindrical projection is a modified Mercator projection, proposed by Osborn Maitland Miller (1897-1979) in 1942. The parallels of latitude are scaled by a factor of 0.8, projected according to Mercator, and then the result is divided by 0.8 to retain scale along the equator.
<Keybuk> eep
<evand> yarp
<mvo> sounds like fun :P
<Keybuk> I assume you're accounting for the variance between the WGS 84 reference ellipsoid used by the GPS systems and the ...
<evand> oh, of course!
 * Keybuk had to learn all this stuff
<Keybuk> my brain dribbled out of my ears
<evand> hahaha
<Keybuk> but it turns out that knowing that the GPS system altitude is based on a fictional reference geoid and not on the ground comes in quite useful when flying ;)
<Keybuk> (and map projections, knowing that if you fly in a straight line what shape line you draw over the map and stuff
<Keybuk>  and then knowing that flying in a straight line is never efficient, and instead you want to fly in a great circle, which may be a very funny shape on your map :p)
<evand> very cool.  How much longer until you can fly the lot of us to UDS?
<Keybuk> it's more a question of money than time at this point :-/
 * ScottK has (in ancient history) had to do great circle plotting of a trans-Atlantic voyage on paper charts before.
<bdmurray> hello
<pedro_> hello everybody
 * ogasawara_ waves
 * cgregan waves
<davmor2> hello
<jcozens> Hi
<sbeattie> hey
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is bdmurray.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bdmurray> The agenda for the meeting is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings and first up we have pedro_
<pedro_> Last Thursday we celebrated the flashplugin-nonfree hug day https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090305
<cr3> bdmurray: you'll be chairing during the testing sprint? :)
<bdmurray> cr3: yes, heno asked me to do this
<pedro_> we had a really good participation from the bugsquad again (they are rocking so hard)
<cr3> bdmurray: thanks man!
<pedro_> we had some heroes bigal50, Joel Goguen (jgoguen), Martin Mai (MrKanister) and Charlie Kravetz (charlie-tca)
<pedro_> big kudos to them ;-)
<pedro_> and specially to MrKanister for helping out to set up everything
<cr3> pedro_: why is it called a hug day rather than a bug day?
 * pedro_ hugs MrKanister
<bdmurray> cr3: that's why ^
 * MrKanister huggs pedro back
<pedro_> cr3: triage a bug, win a hug ;-)
<pedro_> tomorrow we're having a samba hug day, we have been coordinating this with the server team
<cr3> pedro_: dude, I so need to participate in those more!
<cr3> pedro_: what's the wiki page for the samba hug day?
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090312 <- people already started to work on it
<pedro_> cr3: ^
<pedro_> i know Joel is amazing
<pedro_> we're going to have people from the server team available to answers question regarding bugs on the #ubuntu-bugs channel
<bdmurray> pedro_: did bugs w/ patches get added to the template?  I stuck them in for Samba again
<cr3> pedro_: I'll invite some people from montreal, they might be interested too
<pedro_> bdmurray: it's not added, i'll do that
<pedro_> cr3: awesome!
<bdmurray> #action pedro to add patches table to bug day template
<bdmurray> hrm
<pedro_> so that's it, we'll be waiting for you to start squashing samba bugs tomorrow ;-)
 * cr3 hugs pedro_ in advance
<pedro_> talking about hug days heroes, hello charlie-tca
<pedro_> :-)
<charlie-tca> hello, sorry I am a little late
<bdmurray> This week we had a couple of new bug control members and one returning one.
<bdmurray> Julien Lavergne, gilir on freenode, was approved as a member and is interested in awn, conduit, ogmrip among other packages
<bdmurray> IstvÃ¡n Nyitrai, sianis on freenode, was also approved as a member and is interested in l10n bugs, misspellings, typos and has been working on gdebi a fair bit
<pedro_> yay for a conduit contributor :-)
<bdmurray> Third TJ, IntuitiveNipple on freenode, was a former member of Bug Control who has returned!  He has an interest in kernel bugs and received lots of positive comments from the kernel team.
<bdmurray> There is one last application, andres mujica's, still pending if any bug control members want to comment.
<bdmurray> That covers all that's going on in bug control!
<bdmurray> Is there somebody who can speak about the testing day?
<davmor2> Yo
<davmor2> Testing day was mostly me and charlie-tca this week we found a few issues that have kinda been resolved for apha6 due to it
<davmor2> ara_: is running the one on Monday which iirc is based on notify-osd and others
<ara_> yes, focus will be notify-osd and checkbox
<cr3> ara_: yay!
<bdmurray> Okay, that sounds great!
<bdmurray> Moving on - last week or the week before we talked about a bug weighting / gravity as a way to find 'important' bugs in a large collection of bugs.
<bdmurray> I've taken a stab at this using a calculation like so http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/129811/
<bdmurray> Different points are assigned to the tags that a bug report has where lots of points are given for regressions or apport reported bugs
<bdmurray> Then points are also given for duplicates, subscribers and users affected which we'd talked about.
<bdmurray> I'd also like to add in some points if the bug report is private as that is one that should be looked at soon and hopefully made public.
<sbeattie> bdmurray: should regression-update and regression-proposed get a high weighting?
<sbeattie> as they're supposed to be regressions that were introduced by a (proposed) update.
<bdmurray> sbeattie: right, and probably higher than regression-release?
<sbeattie> that's my intuition.
<bdmurray> so something like 250 and 300 for proposed then updates
<bdmurray> okay, noted
<bdmurray> Its this kind of feedback I'm looking for
<bdmurray> I've run some reports using this at http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/tmp/gravity/
<bdmurray> sorting by the gravity you can identify which bug reports probably should be looked at first
<sbeattie> bdmurray: hrm, should workflow bugs get excluded?
<sbeattie> e.g. Bug 340606	shows up on the no-package report.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 340606 in ubuntu "FeatureFreezeException: S.M.I.L.E" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340606
<bdmurray> pedro_: if you could look at rhythmbox / totem and let me know if the gravity number is useful or indicative of something useful that would be helpful
<pedro_> bdmurray: alright
<bdmurray> sbeattie: and maybe the needs-packaging ones too
<sbeattie> mmm, yeah.
<bdmurray> I'm really curious if people would find these reports useful or not
<sbeattie> bdmurray: might be useful to put the little lock marker or some other indicator for private bugs.
<bdmurray> So please test them out and let me know!
<pedro_> ok will do it
<bdmurray> In other news, compiz now has an apport hook!
<sbeattie> bdmurray: thanks for working on that, I think they could be useful.
<sbeattie> nice!
<bdmurray> It gathers hardware info, xorg log file and xsession errors
<bdmurray> The same things asked for at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingCompiz
<bdmurray> Maybe we should add compiz to the hug day targets list for after the release
<pedro_> that's a good idea, I'll add that to the Planning page
<sbeattie> bdmurray: do you have a list of packages that it would be a priority to get apport hooks added to?
<bdmurray> sbeattie: not really, if we were to make a list I think it should take into consideration bug volume and Debugging page existence
<bdmurray> sbeattie: looking around I think we are doing pretty well now
<bdmurray> gnome-power-manager might benefit from one though
<bdmurray> oh and firefox
<bdmurray> so those 2 seem like a priority
<sbeattie> for anyone who's interested, gnome-power-manager appears to include a gnome-power-bugreport.sh script that might be useful for ideas for inclusion in an apport hook
<cr3> speaking of power management, checkbox should also come with a hibernate/suspend test script in the next release which should land before beta
<bdmurray> I that back about firefox - there is one
<bdmurray> Firefox could use a package bug guideline
<bdmurray> Okay, that's all that was on the agenda.  Is there any other business?
<cr3> all good here
<pedro_> noup
<bdmurray> Okay, thanks everyone!
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:45.
<bdmurray> win 40
<pedro_> thanks you
<davmor2> ta
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-03-12
<naymyowin> hi
 * persia peers about
<persia> OK.  Time for the Mobile Team meeting
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090312
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090312
<persia> [topic] persia's action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia's action items
<persia> Erm.  I'll run through the test cases and put them up tomorrow
<persia> [topic] NCommander's action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander's action items
 * NCommander is trying to pull up the list
 * ogra is here now 
<ogra> do we have lool ? or is he travelling ?
<NCommander> I have my jax10 working again, I'll be posting the log today
<ogra> (i know davidm is)
<NCommander> No progress on anything else due to babbage enablement.
 * ogra looks around for StevenK 
<persia> NCommander, OK.  DO you want those carried over?
<NCommander> persia, I think the arm-softboot-loader spec probably should me scratched, simply because I'm not going to touch it until karmic unless my TODO flies away and I have nothing left/
<NCommander> the dmesg will be posted today, no need to carry over.
 * StevenK shores
<persia> I'll carry it anyway, as it's not done now :)
<NCommander> fair enough
<persia> But I'll drop the arm-softboot-loader stuff.
<ogra> NCommander, it would still be helpful to have a full researc on the softbootloader stuff in advance to karmic
<persia> [topic] lool's action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool's action items
<NCommander> ogra, I perfectly agree, but I don't think its worth this getting carried over constantly, I'm not touching it until karmic.
<persia> It's on the roadmap anyway.
<persia> OK.  I'll carry that over.
<persia> [topic] ogra's action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra's action items
<persia> ogra, Still three people listed on the Roadmap.  Did the less visible part get done?
<ogra> well, babbage enablement kept me from doing anytrhing else
<persia> Well, since your only action item was "take charge of Babbage enablement", I'm still curious if it got done :)
<ogra> though i think the babbage image implements a part of selection-of-arm images
<ogra> probably even the biggest part :)
<persia> That's not a bad thing.
<persia> Still, are you the reporting person, or shall this be carried over?
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/arm/babbage/ has the image ...
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/arm/babbage/ has the image ...
<persia> We're not there yet :)  That comes later.
<ogra> seems to largely work with a handfull of known bugs
<ogra> (well, thats my report on babbage enablement ... whgich is an action item ;) )
<persia> OK.  I'm claiming you're in charge, and that the action is done then.
<persia> Moving on to the roadmap
<persia> [topic] offline-installer
<MootBot> New Topic:  offline-installer
<ogra> nmo progress ... still the rootfs script is our best we have
<ogra> *no
<persia> [topic] mobile-setup-wizard
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-setup-wizard
<ogra> and i'm happy to confirm that bug 328167 isnt caused by the setup the script implements
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 328167 in gnome-keyring "gnome-keyring-daemon eating 100% CPU at login in Jaunty" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/328167
<persia> Oh, good!
<ogra> its actually a g-k-d bug
<ogra> (since it also shows up on the live image)
<ogra> any news on the setup wizard ?
<persia> I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to display the right next steps to complete the procedure with oem-config, but think I'm nearly there.  I ought to be able to report out on a procedure for an OEM install of both mobile flavours for next week.
<persia> Note that UNR can be oem installed now, if one doesn't use the launcher (or exposes the Desktop).
<persia> [topic] arm-library-optimisation
<MootBot> New Topic:  arm-library-optimisation
<persia> lool doesn't seem to be around, so we'll skip this one this week
<persia> [topic] pouslbo-packaging
<MootBot> New Topic:  pouslbo-packaging
<persia> In Progress.  The 2D stuff works great.  The 3D stuff doesn't work.  The documentation is lagging.
<persia> [topic] general-resolution-for-touchscree-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  general-resolution-for-touchscree-handling
<ogra> no progress (sadly)
<persia> [topic] arm-softboot-loader
<MootBot> New Topic:  arm-softboot-loader
<ogra> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3127852160d9e8ec0680bf3720e08e49&t=25975 the bootmenu at the bootom is very intresting
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3127852160d9e8ec0680bf3720e08e49&t=25975 the bootmenu at the bootom is very intresting
<persia> So, digging into this debate: I agree that we need to get more research and prep work done before karmic starts.
<NCommander> no progress w.r.t. to drafting the spec.
<persia> Not necessarily any code, but it would be nice to have at least some serious framework for discussion for UDS.
<ogra> right
<NCommander> No, that I agree
<ogra> the possible existing implementations should be researched (and there are plenty)
<persia> OK.  Since we're all in agreement, let's leave this on the roadmap, and keep tracking it.
<ogra> and should be listed in the spec draft
<persia> [topic] selection-of-arm-images
<MootBot> New Topic:  selection-of-arm-images
<ogra> well ...
<ogra> no gui tzool and i doubt i'll write one
<ogra> but we have a live image
<ogra> due to lack of offficially supported kernels it doesnt make real sense to add the additional tool
<persia> Should the spec be trimmed, and a follow-up spec be written for a GUI, or will a GUI not be useful in the long-term?
<NCommander> Now that the kernel has landed, we just need flash-kernel added, then a d-i port becomes fessible.
<ogra> yeah, spec trimming seems sensible
<persia> [action] ogra to trim selection-of-arm-images to a smaller scope
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to trim selection-of-arm-images to a smaller scope
<ogra> a gui tool really only makes sense if we have multiple kernels we support
<persia> [action] ogra to register a new spec for a GUI to assist with kernel addition to arm images
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to register a new spec for a GUI to assist with kernel addition to arm images
<persia> Right.  Let's just register that separately, and then discuss again once we have a better picture of the karmic kernel situation.
<ogra> jep
<persia> [topic] lpia-versus-i386
<MootBot> New Topic:  lpia-versus-i386
<ogra> really depends what platforms we'll support in KK
<persia> lool is away again, so skipping.
<persia> [topic] mobile-spec-cleanup
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-spec-cleanup
<persia> No change
<persia> [topic] bug #299847
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug #299847
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 299847 in linux "Shared memory operations on very fast ARM hardware suffer from non-atomic operations and race conditions." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/299847
<ogra> did you ever recieve the app reviews ?
 * ogra knows he didnt do one
<persia> That was mid-application-selection, and no, y'all suck :p
<NCommander> What app reviews?
<NCommander> oh
<NCommander> I sent mine!
<persia> Anyway, we're talking about a FTBFS bug.
<NCommander> Anyway, no real progress. strace has a huge signal to noise ratio due to perl, and I have yet to create  a working test case
<ogra> right, NCommander, any news ?
<persia> OK.
<persia> [topic] bug#328167
 * NCommander would like to see if a new kernel this still happens
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug#328167
<ogra> upstream acknowledged it as NEW ...
<ogra> no further response yet
<persia> Cool.  Any likelihood of a solution?
<persia> Oh well.
<ogra> i saw it working once on the live image and thought it was a clock issue
<ogra> but that was a red herring
<NCommander> As a datapoint
<NCommander> I've never had an issues with g-k-d
<ogra> now that i have a live image i can work on that to do further debugging though
 * NCommander has not been able to reproduce :-/
<ogra> NCommander, it should show up on the live image
<ogra> if it doesnt for you, please note that in the bug
<ogra> because then its somehow HW related
<ogra> i cant actually reproduce it now
<ogra> on all my setups
<ogra> it might as well be kernel related, but we need more data to actually point at a place
<NCommander> ogra, scratch that, just started up, and its happening for me
<ogra> right
 * NCommander hasn't had this issue before expect when running on the liveCD
<ogra> so everyone of us can reproduce it now
<persia> [topic] bug #280699
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug #280699
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 280699 in libcanberra "canberra-gtk-play crashed with SIGSEGV in malloc()" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/280699
<ogra> which should give us the option to nail it down more easily
<NCommander> I think that's the wrong bug number
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> 669 :)
<persia> [topic] bug #280669
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug #280669
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 280669 in linux "DMA mode and driver jax10" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/280669
<persia> Sorry.
 * ogra once had a car plate with the same issue :) was fun
<NCommander> I have my jax10 working again, and I have an lpia image, I'm going to post the dmesg and answer lool's question, hopefully today
<persia> [topic] bug #336770
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug #336770
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 336770 in flash-kernel "Problems Installing Jaunty On NSLU2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/336770
<ogra> its gotten a lot further and i think the issues the reporter sees are due to lvm or encryption
<ogra> thought its a bit odd that he hits oom while swap is mounted
<ogra> i'm running a test install today but it will still take several hours
<persia> Sounds under control then.
<ogra> i think its fixed if you go with all the standards
<NCommander> ogra, NSLU2 installation requires loads of swap, I've had it OOM with Debian with a 364M swap partition.
<persia> [topic] bug #338148
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug #338148
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 338148 in vnc4 "Needs new version from Debian: fails to build with removal of mesa-swx11-source" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/338148
<ogra> just selecting special options seems to trigger it
<ogra> that vnc bug doesnt lok any arm specific
<ogra> (the rodmap mentionjs it as armel porting specific)
<persia> Right.  I'll take a look at it in detail tomorrow, but I agree it doesn't look ARM specific.
<ogra> looks liek a simple merge bug
<ogra> *like
<persia> [action] persia to investigate 338148
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to investigate 338148
<persia> [topic] NSLU2 enablement
<MootBot> New Topic:  NSLU2 enablement
<ogra> well, its tracked on bug #336770
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 336770 in flash-kernel "Problems Installing Jaunty On NSLU2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/336770
<persia> And you said that you think it works if you use the default options, right?
<ogra> as i said above, i assume installing without extra options works
<ogra> right
<persia> If you can confirm that, would you drop it from the roadmap as complete?
<ogra> the reporter there tries to use encrypted lvm and i assume thats just not possible with the amount of ram
<ogra> but i need to confirm first
<ogra> yep
<persia> [topic] Babbage Enablement
<MootBot> New Topic:  Babbage Enablement
<ogra> first manually rolled live image is there
<NCommander> morning davidm
<davidm> NCommander, morning
<ogra> we're waiting for NCommanders redboot package and for lool's redboot partitioning scheme
<ogra> and a tool to write to the partitions
<NCommander> Well, we can build redboot from source now
<davidm> Sorry I'm late and I have to leave again in minutes
<NCommander> (and its evil toolchain)
<ogra> right, package it :)
<NCommander> I have
<NCommander> (mostly)
<NCommander> Packages still need some work, but I can get a working GCC package
 * ogra considers it done if a package shows up on jaunty-changes :P
<ogra> (so dont say "i have" ;) )
<NCommander> Well, I packaged it (which I have)
<NCommander> I just haven't submitted it :-)
<ogra> if we require a special tool to write to the redboot partitions, this tool should probably go into the package as well
<ogra> please talk to lool about that
<ogra> it might only use dd with different offests
<ogra> which could as well be a flash-kernel addition, but i'm not sure
<NCommander> ogra, well, at the moment, I'm concerned on building redboot as a package, lool is handling fis/fconfig/flash-kernel AFAIK
<ogra> right
<ogra> thats what i'm saying
<ogra> lool handles the partitioning and will tell us what we need to write to them
<ogra> if there is a special script that might be better going into the redboot package
<NCommander> ogra, well, at the moment, I only have the EVIL toolchain building
<NCommander> and I need to fix up the GCC package so its not just one major blob of files
<ogra> right, do what you need to do
<ogra> thats highest prio
<ogra> we need redboot packaged to autobuild the images
<ogra> i'm currently blocked on that with liveimage auto-creation
<ogra> a manual image is nice as a first shot, but we need dailies
<davidm> NCommander, please get the situation solved ASAP, we need to get liveimage auto-creation
<davidm> I need dailies last week!!!!
<davidm> NCommander,
<ogra> haha
<davidm> NCommander, ^^
<ogra> without kernel :P
 * NCommander would need a time machine to fix that for you :-/
<davidm> OK sorry have to run to catch shuttle to office
<ogra> even the kernel we have atm is very shaky
<ogra> it only works due to several hacks i applied
<NCommander> ogra, I still can't use a root=USB stick :-/
<ogra> (in initramfs/casper)
<davidm> understood, but lets get what we can done, done.
<ogra> right
<ogra> first step is redboot
<NCommander> davidm, its top of my priorities, but full directions on how to build RedBoot are up, so we can generate the blob by hand, but if I'm lucky, we can get a RB binary built, then I need to sitdown and make the packages not be ugly
<NCommander> (building GCC is extremely nasty ATM)
<ogra> and getting the kernel in shape, which i''m working on with amitk
<ogra> last step is to make it all work with ubiquity
<NCommander> I should have all the initial packaging done by weeks end. Probably take a few more days though to get it all through REVU, through NEW, and into the archive ...
<ogra> some issues are already on cjwatson's plate for that (partitioning and HW support in d.i for example)
<ogra> NCommander, feel free to ask StevenK, persia and me for REVU reviews ... we should get it through fast
<NCommander> ogra, oh, I plan to, but I still need to have the packages done to do that :-)
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> persia, i think thats it for babbage enablement atm
<persia> [topic] ARM benchmarking
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM benchmarking
<NCommander> Mostly completed. Two app benchmarks haven't been run, but I have a working LCD again, so I can finish those up once I write the old redboot and a 2.6.26 kernel to my SD card.
<ogra> thats only relevant for karmic, right ?
<ogra> we wont do any archive rebuild for jaunty
<NCommander> ogra, right, these have been done awhile, but blocked on my LCD going bing and dying
<ogra> so its not critical to have before beta
<ogra> babbage enablement is ...
<persia> OK.  That's it for the roadmap then.
<ogra> so please priorize babbage above benchmarks
<persia> The only other thing on the agenda is meeting times, so:
<NCommander> ogra, I know :-)
<persia> [topic] Discuss moving meeting time to be more convenient for those in UTC-5 through UTC-8
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss moving meeting time to be more convenient for those in UTC-5 through UTC-8
<ogra> well, not enought people around to discuss that imho
<persia> I submit that not enough people are around in part because of the current time of the meeting.
<ogra> not really
 * NCommander notes that most of the Americans that are regulars are MIA
<persia> Anyone else want to defer to next week?
<ogra> the US people are all in UK atm
<NCommander> ogra, I'm not :-P
<ogra> theoretically it should be a perfect time
<ogra> NCommander, well, but you are here :)
<persia> OK.  Deferred.
<NCommander> It should be noted that with the US in daylight savings, the meeting is now an hour lower for us US folks
<NCommander> (yay for 8am vs 7m)
<persia> Any other business?
 * ogra hasnt heard lower wrt to time ever :)
<ogra> looks like we're done ?
<persia> OK. Meeting adjourned.
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:52.
<persia> I'm feeling lousy today.  If someone else volunteered to write up the minutes, I'd be happy.
 * dholbach hugs persia
<persia> Oh well.  Expect them late then.
<ogra> thanks persia for chairing
<persia> dholbach, :)
 * NCommander hugs persia as well
<cjwatson> ogra: I'm interested to know what these issues that are on my plate are :-)
<ogra> cjwatson, the partitioning stuff that partman came up with
<cjwatson> ogra: err, you'll have to remind me
<ogra> cjwatson, and general HW support for babbage, we talked about both before but i'm waiting for a motre finalized kernel
<ogra> *more
<ogra> cjwatson, be sure i will, its my main work item until beta
<ogra> but atm i'm focuing mre on getting the images clean than on installability
<ogra> *focusing more
<ogra> (one step at a time)
 * persia peers about
<persia> Who's here for the Java Team Meeting?
<ttx> o/
<persia> Right.  Someone ought popularise these meetings more :)
<persia> Nothing special on the agenda.
<persia> robilad isn't here
<persia> slytherin isn't here
<persia> The only remaining obstacle to dropping sun-java5 is that there are some pending SRUs, which I'm hoping to get in process this weekend.  I do expect it can be dropped for beta.
<persia> ttx, How's progrss on the Java-Contents file?
<ttx> persia: I haven't make a lot of progress since last week, I was taken on something more urgent.
<ttx> As soon as I free one hour or two it should be completed
<ttx> and the result posted on some people.ubuntu.com location. + code to regenerate it in LP
<persia> OK.
<persia> How about plans to attract more Java packagers?
<ttx> I still have to compile a list of missing libraries that we would target and coordinate with debian-java
<ttx> so no progress here either, sorry
<persia> OK.
<persia> Anything else to add or mention?
<ttx> i had good feedback on my LibraryPackaging doc though
<persia> Cool!
<ttx> ludovicc and twerner seem to make good progress on the Maven side of things
<ttx> Checking their work out is on my TODO list... somewhere
<persia> Excellent.  You think we'll be in shape for karmic?
<ttx> We should import most of what's needed during the debian import window, yes.
<ttx> I have to look at it deeper to be sure it will be the case
<persia> That should make it easier to adopt more packages, or at least handle those who have signed on to maven completely.
<ttx> nothing else on my side
<persia> I don't have anything else either.
<persia> Meeting adjourned then.  Until next week.
<ttx> Thanks persia !
<lool> persia: Thanks for running the mobile meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-03-13
<dholbach> good morning :)
<persia> Let's get started then.
<nixternal> good morning to you
<persia> First, let's find out who's here.
<fabrice_sp> Good morning
<fabrice_sp> o/
<rgreening> morning nixternal, persia
<fabrice_sp> but I only can attend the first 15 minutes :-/
<persia> Toadstool, geser soren awen jpds nhandler ?
<soren> o/
<nixternal> \o
<persia> fabrice_sp, In that case, you go first (if we can finish in 15 minutes)
<fabrice_sp> ok
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 02:01. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<a|wen> hi everyone
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Fabrice Coutadeur
<MootBot> New Topic:  Fabrice Coutadeur
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabriceCoutadeur/UniverseContributorApplication
<dholbach> good morning fabrice_sp - how are you doing?
<fabrice_sp> good morning dholbach ! I'm doing fine, thanks :-)
<fabrice_sp> and good morning everyone
<dholbach> fabrice_sp: in your application you say that the first contact with the Ubuntu community is not as smooth as it could be - do you have an example for that?
<fabrice_sp> dholbach, I first came to the community to have dvdstyler integrated, and made the upload to REVU
<fabrice_sp> and after that, I've been lost :-)
<dholbach> because it took too long to get it reviewed?
<fabrice_sp> I didn't expect the package to take so long to be accepted
<fabrice_sp> yes
<fabrice_sp> now, I understand why (and my packaging is a lot better :-)
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> Do you think the documentation or "the path to contributing" was clear enough?
<persia> Do you have any suggestions that could either improve the experience, or better set expecations?
<fabrice_sp> also, I'm quite a hy guy, and never used irc before
<fabrice_sp> weel, the previous documentation spoke about uploading new packages to revu as the first step
<fabrice_sp> and oviously, it shouldn't be the first step
<soren> "hy"?
 * persia suspects a dropped 's'
<soren> Ah.
<fabrice_sp> yes, sorry
 * soren is still waking up :)
<fabrice_sp> my wireless keyboard drop some letters sometime
<fabrice_sp> :-)
<soren> That's ok. My brain tends to do the same. Or insert new ones at random. It's very confusing.
<dholbach> fabrice_sp: So you'd say that we could do a better job at guiding new contributors towards learning packaging and probably work on some existing packages beforehand?
<fabrice_sp> dholbach, yes. I also already helped in a non official way some people interested in packaging stuff
<fabrice_sp> in private chatrooms, but for the moment, none is still around
<fabrice_sp> I think that even with few experience, you can still help a lot
<fabrice_sp> even in REVU :-)
<persia> fabrice_sp, You seem to use your PPA for backporting.  Have you considered involvement with the backporters?
<nixternal> that is a very nice chunk of uploaded packages you have there fabrice_sp. One question, what happened with im-sdk and are you in the process of getting that fixed and reuploaded?
<fabrice_sp> persia, yes. I also receive some request directly to my mailbox, that I try to upload
<fabrice_sp> nixternal, it's failing because of debug packages
<fabrice_sp> I opened another bug report for that, and assigned it to pkg-create-dbgsym package
<fabrice_sp> in the meantime, I'm still trying to get it fixed (playing with debug compilation options)
<nixternal> fabrice_sp: groovy, great job on your packaging contributions and some really good testimonials as well
<dholbach> wow... good work
<fabrice_sp> thanks :-) I've been a lot more active since I applied to u-c-d
<dholbach> fabrice_sp: I noticed :)
<dholbach> soren, geser, nixternal, persia: any more questions?
<fabrice_sp> working also on python2.6 transition now
<nixternal> a lot more active than I have been, though dholbach has me working my fingers to the bone on other projects :p
<nixternal> dholbach: I am good
<fabrice_sp> dholbach, :-) You sponsored a lot of my uploads :-)
<soren> Nope, I'm good.
<geser> no question from me
<nixternal> persia must have gone down for more sushi
<persia> fabrice_sp, You say you plan to work on packages "better if linked to Video edition".  Could you share what that is?
<persia> I've not heard of it before.
<persia> No, I'm just a slow typist.
<fabrice_sp> I mean, my first area of interest is video edition
<fabrice_sp> so, that's why I have in my ppa dvbcut, dvdstyler, openmovieeditor, ...
<soren> Are they not in the official archives at all or do you just have fresher versions in your ppa?
<fabrice_sp> but I've touching a lot of different packages lately, so it's really my first area of interest, but not the only one :-)
<nixternal> and he lives in one of my favorite places in the world too, madrid..so now I know where I can crash next time I am out there :p
<fabrice_sp> soren, fresher versions, most of the time
<soren> fabrice_sp: Ok, cool.
<persia> I'm more curious about the nomenclature "video edition", but it's not important to my decision.
<fabrice_sp> for Openmovieeditor, it's more ocmplicated as the new version requires a lot of new packages
<dholbach> persia: "video editing" maybe
<fabrice_sp> dholbach, persia: yes
<persia> OK.
<dholbach> persia: good to go?
<fabrice_sp> I mean converting old family videos to DVD's
<persia> dholbach, Yes.
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabriceCoutadeur  <- I wish I was that organized
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Fabrice Coutadeur become Contributing Developer?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Fabrice Coutadeur become Contributing Developer?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> psst, geser, your turn
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> hehe
<dholbach> how do I end the vote again?
<dholbach> #endvote
<nixternal> #endvote
<nixternal> [endvote]
<rgreening> wonder if I can go next?
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<dholbach> congratulations fabrice_sp
<nixternal> rgreening: you are going last, we want it to be like 5am when it is your turn :p
<dholbach> :-)
<nixternal> congratulations and welcome fabrice_sp!!!
<fabrice_sp> thanks to all! :-)
<rgreening> It is 5 am
<nixternal> no, thank you
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Roderick B. Greening
<nixternal> rgreening: is it?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roderick B. Greening
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rgreening/DeveloperApplicationMOTU
<rgreening> morning all :)
 * a|wen waves at rgreening
<cody-somerville> Is this the MC meeting?
<dholbach> cody-somerville: yes
<persia> cody-somerville, Yes.
<rgreening> o/ a|wen
<cody-somerville> Can I do an impromptu application for core-dev as I don't imagine I'll generally be aware at this hour again anytime soon?
<nixternal> damn, rgreening you messaged me too to put an indorsement on your wiki page...I apologize for totally forgetting
<persia> rgreening, You say you need to read more documentation.  Could you share why you think you've read enough to be MOTU?
<dholbach> rgreening: almost every sponsor mentions the danger of over-committing - what do you think about that?
<rgreening> nixternal: thats ok, you can skip that and just + 1 me now
<persia> cody-somerville, No.  Applications need a week discussion period before discussion.  There's another meeting at 17UTC, which might work better for you?
<persia> s/discussion/consideration/2
 * Hobbsee_ cheers for rgreening 
<cody-somerville> persia, Okay, great.
<dholbach> cody-somerville: could you please follow  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers ?
<nixternal> MC: I can definitely endorse rgreening, even if he did keep me awake at UDS from snoring...totally awesome work he has done in Kubuntu and I believe some of it has gone upstream or is going upstream...
<rgreening> persia: one can NEVER read too much. I can attest that to the 100's of tech books i have
<dholbach> cody-somerville: it'll make it a bit easier for us to prepare, etc.
<cody-somerville> dholbach, I was just being facetious anyhow. No problem :)
<rgreening> dholbach: thats all in ref to UDS. I was quite the eager beaver. and that was also many months back
<nixternal> hahaha, that is funny, rgreening what did I say to you at UDS? :)
<dholbach> rgreening: ah, so you're not the eager beaver anymore? :)
<rgreening> dholbach: I now have a realistic view of things. this allows me to accept work that can be done
<rgreening> and not take on too much.
<rgreening> right nixternal
<dholbach> rgreening: how's the work on kpackagekit coming on?
<rgreening> good dholbach. I have been learning a lot on it.
<nixternal> totally awesome dholbach :)  I finally don't have that annoying other k package thingy, I already forgot its name
<rgreening> I have a couple of patches already in
<nixternal> adept, that was it
<dholbach> rgreening: I know that glatzor did some work around handling debconf stuff and questions asked by the package installation process - does that work in kpackagekit already?
<rgreening> and dholbachworking on other patches now. also the new app-install spec was initiated by me with upstream
<rgreening> dholbach: that would be a back-end. should be immediately available to kpackagekit. I can certainly check with glatzor to verify
<dholbach> rgreening: well, some parts of it should be part of the front-end too, no? :)
<rgreening> dholbach: yes. correct.
<rgreening> not sure if it was integrated yet into 0.4.
<dholbach> ok
<rgreening> but it should be easy if it's not yet there.
<rgreening> the code for kpackagekit it really clean
<persia> rgreening, Two of your endorsers comment that they'd like to see more varied work, and you mention work with the server team as a future plan.  What steps have you taken in that direction so far?
<rgreening> I have discussed woth ScottK on how to get more involved with the team. I have also jumped in the IRC channel for server to see what needs doing.
<rgreening> I have some ideas for UDS and next server release
<rgreening> to do with security packaging. thats an area I am really familiar with
<persia> And you also mention that you'd like to work more closely with the GNOME team.  How is that progressing?
<rgreening> specifically firewalls.
<rgreening> well, glatzor and I have been colaborating with packagekit ideas (for Gnome/KDE).
<rgreening> I have also worked with some packagers of Gnome apps to help reduce unnecessary deps in packages.
<rgreening> did I miss anyones questions?
<rgreening> :)
<dholbach> soren, persia, nixternal, geser: any more questions?
<rgreening> I have also worked with fixing python 2.6 transition in some packages for ScottK
<nixternal> none here
<geser> no
<soren> Nope.
<persia> all set
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Roderick Greening join the MOTU team?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Roderick Greening join the MOTU team?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<soren> 1+
<soren> Heh. Whoops
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dholbach> hehe
<nixternal> lol
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<dholbach> congratulations rgreening
<dholbach> and good night :-)
<nixternal> congrats and welcome rgreening !!! \o/
<rgreening> ty.
<rgreening> :)
<a|wen> congrats rgreening!
<nixternal> and another kubuntu suckah bites the dust
<rgreening> gl a|wen
<a|wen> thx
<dholbach> [TOPIC] JÃ©rÃ©mie Corbier
<MootBot> New Topic:  JÃ©rÃ©mie Corbier
<dholbach> hey Toadstool - how are you doing?
<dholbach> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-February/002030.html
<nixternal> woohoo Toadstool...welcome back :)
 * rgreening sleeps for 2 hrs now.. before work.
<a|wen> nn rgreening
<nixternal> g'nite rgreening
<nixternal> hrmm, where did he go?
<dholbach> Toadstool: did you find your way back into the Ubuntu Development world easily?
 * persia suspects Toadstool is otherwise occupied
<dholbach> let's wait another 2 minutes and then do a|wen first?
<a|wen> fine for me
<a|wen> :)
<dholbach> ok... Toadstool: we'll get back to you
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Andreas Wenning
<MootBot> New Topic:  Andreas Wenning
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasWenning/DeveloperApplication
<a|wen> hi! all around
<dholbach> How's Thailand? Are you in touch with any local group there? :)
<a|wen> it's good :) ... no sadly not; but i'm sure to "promoting" some (k)ubuntu whenever i can
 * a|wen found an ubuntu sticker on one of the office doors of his department the other day
<dholbach> a|wen: how has the work been with the Security team? have you had the chance to work directly with them?
<geser> how comes that so many kubuntu developers are applying? doesn't ubuntu-desktop need any more devs or is kubuntu simply better at recruiting?
<persia> a|wen, You mention work on security updates.  Have you had any involvement with MOTU SWAT?
<persia> geser, Probably just cyclical: it was the other way for quite a while.
<nixternal> geser: and lets not forget that 3 out of 7 MC members are also Kubuntu developers :)
<nixternal> it is an invasion I tell you
<a|wen> dholbach: not directly no ... until now i've simply been preparing an upload for the full stack and trying to get a sponsor
<dholbach> a|wen: I'm sure they're going to appreciate helping hands. :-)
<Stskeeps> jaunty, bzr qt3 , sourcepackage qt4=4.5.0-0maemo0mer1
<Stskeeps> er, sorry
<a|wen> but i might try to get involved with motu swat soon ... i think security updates are very important to focus at
<a|wen> geser: they (we) are good at welcoming people in the kubuntu camp ... and the kde-packaging is streamlined (thx apachelogger) to easily get people to help; that has worked really good
<nixternal> I can also provide some endorsement on a|wen...he has done a tremendous job with helping on the KDE 4.x packages and helping out others as well in regards to packaging in #kubuntu-devel...he has been around a long time and always found a way to contribute substantially
<dholbach> a|wen: you said you're maintaining packages in debian itself too?
<a|wen> thx nixternal :)
<persia> a|wen, https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cve-tracker might address part of your "What I like least in Ubuntu" concern.
<nixternal> heh, all this time I thought you were a MOTU already..then again, when you went for Kubuntu Member I thought you were already a member then as well
<a|wen> dholbach: correct ... i have python-uniconvertor (currently in ubuntu/main); and two apache modules
<dholbach> a|wen: Do you think we're doing a good job at working with Debian in general?
<a|wen> persia: uhh; i should look at that one and see, what that is
<a|wen> dholbach: in general yes, but everyone needs to be aware of it ... i'm very focused on sending patches upstream to debian, but we need all to be that
<a|wen> we'll all benefit for getting patches/changes/improvements to debian to cut down on the diff ... we also need to better to that with the current kde-packaging
<dholbach> a|wen: anything we could do to give it more visibility?
<a|wen> dholbach: adding it as part of the merge-process? (can't remember if it is already there)
<dholbach> I *think* it's mentioned there.
<dholbach> Anyway, I was just interested to hear the views from somebody who "lives in both worlds".
<dholbach> soren, geser, persia, nixternal: any more questions?
<nixternal> none here
<geser> dholbach: no, you'are doing the questioning great, you haven't unlearned anything in your MC absence time :)
<a|wen> dholbach: and as a sponsor we should remember asking if it is done ... i'm often asked by eg. ScottK if i remembered to send it upstream (luckily i often have)
<soren> dholbach: Yeah, what geser said :)
<dholbach> geser: :-)
<dholbach> a|wen: I guess you're going to bear that in mind, when doing sponsoring yourself? :)
<persia> I don't have any more questions.  I've been quite impressed with the quality of changelog entries in the patches I've seen.
<dholbach> alright.........
<a|wen> dholbach: of course :)
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Andreas Wenning join the MOTU team?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Andreas Wenning join the MOTU team?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congratulations and welcome a|wen!!! \o/
<dholbach> congratulations a|wen! :)
<soren> Yay, more Danish MOTU's!
<nixternal> another kubuntu suckah bites the dust :p
<a|wen> thx everyone :)
<persia> And has Toadstool returned?
<a|wen> soren: yay!
<dholbach> nobody expects the Danish ... err.... :)
<nixternal> mmm, a danish...I am quite hungry actually :p
<a|wen> haha
<soren> nixternal: We /are/ tasty, aren't we?
<nixternal> err, not that kind of danish your perverts!
<soren> Oh.
 * dholbach will cut that out of the meeting logs
<soren> :p
<nixternal> hahaha
<persia> Right.  We've clearly lost cohesion.  Let's call it done, and reconvene in a couple weeks.
<dholbach> I propose we do Toadstool's re-application over mail if he doesn't turn up by the end of the hour.
<nixternal> 2 minutes...
<persia> I thought we didn't want to do them over mail anymore.
<soren> persia: As a rule, we don't. Toadstool's appliaction is kind of special, though.
<persia> soren, Why is it any different than any other reapplication?
<dholbach> persia: I was thinking that it'd be nice if re-applications were unbureaucratic
<soren> persia: We've been through this :)
<soren> persia: Because it's a reapplication.
<persia> dholbach, It's not that, it's that I think we ought to do it one way or the other.  Mixing them just seems wrong.
<soren> On a whim, yes.
<soren> This is a special instance, though.
<persia> Well, it's a rare instance, but I don't know why it's special, but I think I'm looking at a narrower thing than you (see above).
<dholbach> I'm not really opposed to doing them in our meetings, I was just thinking that JÃ©rÃ©mie waited 3 weeks now and given that his skills are undoubted mail might be more convenient
<geser> did we grant the applicant the opportunity to process his application my mail if he can't make it to any meeting?
<dholbach> (or at least I don't doubt his skills given his involvement in Ubuntu before)
<dholbach> geser: yes, we said we are flexible :)
<soren> persia: Oh, right I see what you said now. I missed a "re" somewhere :)
<persia> Well, the other alternative would be to process in his absence.
<persia> I'm not that excited about that, because I think it's unfair if we have unanswered questions.
<dholbach> I agree, meeting to not ask questions is weird. :)
<geser> me too
<persia> On the other hand, I don't especially want to make him wait: I just think that if we switched from mail to meetings because we thought it was better, we should stick with that.
<persia> I also think it's unfair to expect some applicants to appear at meetings, and other applicants to be processed by mail.
<dholbach> I'm happy to make it an impromptu meeting then. I was just trying to avoid making him wait another 2 weeks.
<persia> That said, if we want to declare that reapplications only require declaration of intent and plans, and we just do it, I'm good with that, but let it be a precedent.
<soren> persia: Sounds reasonable.
<nixternal> alrighty all, I am going to bed...I shall talk to you later on today :)
<dholbach> night nixternal
<nixternal> g'nite
<dholbach> soren, geser, persia: so what's your favourite solution now?
 * persia is unsure, but wants the chosen solution to not be "special".
<soren> When Toadstool shows up next, we can see if we can make quorum for an inpromptu meeting.
<dholbach> soren: +1
<dholbach> As we've done that before, it wouldn't be a precedent. :-)
<persia> I'm not opposed.  Will we extend that to any applicant, or just for reapplicants?
<dholbach> persia: we did it for Laney (I think) because of scheduling / timing problems 4 weeks ago
<dholbach> so it's more a "be flexible when necessary" instead of a new "special rule"
<persia> We did.  Do we expect to keep doing that if there are issues with scheduling/timing?
<soren> persia: I think that's a reasonable thing to offer to others.
<soren> persia: We're all of course free to say that it's a bad time for us.
<persia> OK.  That seems reasonable.
<dholbach> OK. :)
<dholbach> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<dholbach> geser, soren, persia: anything from you?
<persia> So, if someone can't make a scheduled meeting, we will consider them for a possible ad-hoc meeting between the scheduled meeting and the next scheduled meeting.
<persia> And if any of us have dire concerns or strong praise, we'll annotate the applicant wiki page after the missed meeting.
<persia> Does that sound complete?
<soren> persia: Perfect.
<dholbach> The cases up until now were obvious: timezone confusion and dropping off the internet.
<dholbach> We didn't have the case yet where an applicant said "I flat out can't make any of those times".
<persia> Right.  I'm essentially trying to establish a guideline that lets us reasonably say "yes" or "no" rather than "come to the next one".
<dholbach> I'm happy with what you said above
<persia> OK.  That's three of us, which unfortunately isn't quorum.  I'll bring it up at the next MC call, and if we have quorum, add it to the wiki page.
<dholbach> ok great
<dholbach> Is there any other business?
<dholbach> I guess not.
<dholbach> I'm happy to do the honours and update the agenda for next time.
<dholbach> See you in two weeks! :)
<dholbach> Thanks everybody
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 03:15.
<geser> I'm happy with the proposed solution (ad-hoc meetings)
<persia> geser, Excellent.  You save me having to remember the details :)  I'll update the wiki page in a few hours.
<dholbach> thanks persia
<Toadstool> guys I'm really really sorry, stuck in traffic for 2 hours :(
<dholbach> persia, soren, geser: still there? :)
 * persia is still here
 * geser has to leave now, will be back in around 3 hours if necessary
<persia> That means no quorum for at least three hours, unless someone else appears.
<Toadstool> I'll show up next meeting then, no worries :)
<Toadstool> my fault anyways, I should have left home earlier
<Toadstool> sorry about the inconvenience
<dholbach> Toadstool: no worries - I'd be happy to make it an impromptu meeting later today if we can get quorum
<Toadstool> dholbach: fine with me, just ping me if you do, thank you for the effort
 * dholbach hugs Toadstool
 * Toadstool hugs dholbach back
<dholbach> jpds, geser, persia, Toadstool: around? :)
<geser> yes :)
<Toadstool> yep
<persia> present
 * jpds waves.
<dholbach> super
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 04:53. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> Did we lose soren in the interim?
<dholbach> This is an impromptu meeting to deal with the re-application of Toadstool aka JÃ©rÃ©mie Corbier.
<dholbach> persia: I pinged him
<Toadstool> first, I'd like to apologize and thank you all for showing up now :)
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Re-activation of JÃ©rÃ©mie Corbier
<MootBot> New Topic:  Re-activation of JÃ©rÃ©mie Corbier
<dholbach> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-February/002030.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-February/002030.html
<persia> Toadstool, You mention that you've been following process change to some degree.  What changed most while you were away?
<Toadstool> that's quite a lot of things to talk about but mainly SRUs and ways the different freezes are handled I guess
<Toadstool> I don't know the exact changes to be honest, but I know things changed and I also know where to look at on the mailing lists and on the wiki
<dholbach> Toadstool: is there anything that specifically interests you in the mobile world?
<Toadstool> low level stuff, drivers, etc. but I have recently looked at how UIs are designed (Maemo, U Mobile, etc) and I think I am going to take a deeper look at that as well
<dholbach> I'm sure the Ubuntu Mobile people will be pleased to get to know you
<Toadstool> for what is worth, I am working as a linux embedded software engineer, so I have a good understanding of how things work on a mobile device ;)
<dholbach> ah, I didn't know :)
<dholbach> jpds, geser: do you have any questions?
<persia> Toadstool, I'm also curious if you put anything in the sponsors queue while you were waiting to be MOTU again.
<Toadstool> not yet, but I am currently working on putting the qc-usb driver into shape for Jaunty or Karmic
<Toadstool> the package is ready, I just need to test it a little more
<persia> Oh, excellent!
 * soren is around-ish
<dholbach> soren: questions? :)
<soren> None :)
<jpds> None from me.
<geser> no questions from me either
<dholbach> persia: anything else from you?
<persia> Nope.
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall JÃ©rÃ©mie Corbier re-join the MOTU team?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall JÃ©rÃ©mie Corbier re-join the MOTU team?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<jpds> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<soren> +1
<soren> aw..
<dholbach> oops
<dholbach> sorry soren :)
<persia> That's +5!
<dholbach> I thought we had all already
<Toadstool> yay! \o/
<dholbach> congratulations Toadstool!
<dholbach> and welcome back!
<Toadstool> thank you guys!
<persia> Welcome back Toadstool
<geser> soren: two seconds to slow or dholbach two seconds too fast
<Toadstool> and thanks for your time, greatly appreciated
<dholbach> somebody wants to do the honours?
<Toadstool> it's good to be back :)
 * persia will do them if nobody else steps up, as dholbach already did several today
 * persia looks for someone else
<jpds> I can do it.
<persia> Excellent.
<dholbach> thanks a lot jpds
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 05:08.
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everybody!
<Toadstool> thanks again
<pitti> hello
 * lool waves
<fader> Howdy
<cjwatson> afternoon
<slangasek> morning
 * pgraner waves
<slangasek> mdz, lool, Riddell, sbeattie, Hobbsee: ping
<mdz> slangasek: emailed you earlier
<lool> slangasek: 15:00  * lool waves
<Riddell> hi
<slangasek> mdz: ah, ok
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:06. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * slangasek waves back to lool, right :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] outstanding actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding actions
<slangasek> actually only two of these carried over
<slangasek> cjwatson: have you had a chance to prod anyone about helping with the Qt powerpc ICE?
<cjwatson> unfortunately not, but I did (just today) ask IS to set up a jaunty chroot on davis, and with the aid of that I've reproduced the ICE just a few moments ago
<cjwatson> so I'll put together the usual preprocessed source, with a minimal case if I can
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> sorry I'm a bit late on that
<slangasek> it happens... :)
<slangasek> the other carry-over was bug #88746, on my list.  Still haven't had the block of time to dig through that bug and turn it into something sensible
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 88746 in linux "ehci_hcd module causes I/O errors in USB 2.0 devices" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/88746
<slangasek> since I haven't found the time for that, I'll happily give that over if someone else wants to volunteer to take it
<slangasek> otherwise I'll keep it on my list
<cjwatson> kernel perhaps?
 * rtg ducks
<cjwatson> or did they explicitly ask for others to look at it?
<slangasek> they explicitly disclaimed responsibility for that morass of a bug report :)
<rtg> cjwatson: its one of those enormous dogpile bugs.
<cjwatson> rtg: oh, I know the feeling, believe me ...
<slangasek> well, nobody jumping up and down to take it, I'll keep it in my pile
<slangasek> btw, mdz sent me a couple of other items for the agenda which I'll insert at the end
<lool> The "surprize" items
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Future issues expected to impact the release
<MootBot> New Topic:  Future issues expected to impact the release
<lool> Is that free floor?
<slangasek> i.e., anything in the pipeline from anyone's team that we need to be aware of?
<pitti> desktop team still has 4, I'm afraid
<slangasek> pitti: go ahead
<pitti> they are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus, but the most important one is the potential update of -intel
<pitti> currently we are leaning much towards "no"
<pitti> but if testing shows that it works much better than the current one, without much regressions, we might consider it
<pitti> given intel's recent problems with it's QA, we are kind of sitting between a rock and a hard place here
<cjwatson> my impression is that -intel has been flakier than desirable this cycle
<pitti> cjwatson: very much so
<lool> I'd like to mention that we're currently spending all our efforts getting imx51/babbage daily images in place; this is unfortunately bound to some problems: building RedBoot requires a cross toolchain, we'd like to avoid that in main but we need a redboot binary for the images; I'm still not done with the tool to generate RedBoot binary config partitions from scratch; VFP is blocked on having a new kernel on the buildds and porter box, but ...
<pitti> it's so ironic that ATI cards which everyone hated a year or two ago are now almost working better than intel ones :/
<lool> ... that's getting close
 * slangasek nods to pitti.
<rtg> pitti: ATI support for several Radeon controllers is still forthcoming. I'll get them done in time for Beta.
<pitti> slangasek: so, I'm very conservative about this, but we should at least keep the option on the table
<slangasek> lool: why does it require a cross-toolchain?
<slangasek> pitti: right, understood
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-03-13
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-03-13
<pitti> rtg: right, is that update (DRI for r6xx/r7xx) already committed, or are there problems with it?
<lool> slangasek: I don't have the specifics, NCommander has and I've asked him to write them down and we might get help from ARM folks who know RedBoot well to debug
 * slangasek gets the agenda up, so the topics are less of a surprise :)
<rtg> pitti: no, just couldn't get it done in time for A6.
<lool> slangasek: I wish we'd build with a native toolchain, but ECos upstream (used in RedBoot) doesn't support native builds but only arm-unknown-eabi ones
<slangasek> hrm, odd
<lool> In the meantime, NCommander proceeds to packaging a cross toolchain
<pitti> rtg: that's fine
<lool> slangasek: I didn't work directly on this, but will hand you the details when I get them from NCommander
<slangasek> lool: understood, thanks
<rtg> lool: the kernel team wouldn't mind a cross tool chain for testing kernel builds
<slangasek> rtg: it sounds like it's arm-cross-arm, not arm-cross-something-fast :)
<lool> rtg: I was working on a convenience one for this reason, but having one in main doesn't sound like a good idea
<rtg> lool: something that worked on Jaunty would be fine with me
<lool> slangasek: We can discuss this particular topic into details if you like, but NCommander proposed an i386->arm toolchain to build an arch: all binary with the redboot as "data" in it; I'm not too hot though
<slangasek> lool: ah, ok
<lool> I think we don't need to cover the details here though, and that's currently the workaround solution, my personal preference is for a native build
<slangasek> that seems unnecessary to me; but we can talk about it after the meeting
<slangasek> [TOPIC] general feature update
<MootBot> New Topic:  general feature update
<lool> It might be only needed in jaunty where we release these particular SD image with RedBoot, hopefully we wont need to include it in future images
<pitti> desktop features> all specs done \o/
<slangasek> I'm hoping there's nothing to discuss for this topic, but just in case :)  anyone have features still coming in that we need to know about?
<pitti> slangasek: Mark wants plymouth in jaunty
<lool> VFP patches
<pitti> (just kidding)
<lool> pitti: :-)
<slangasek> heh :)
<rtg> pitti: you had me going for a second
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Spot check on the status of ATI DRI patches
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spot check on the status of ATI DRI patches
<cjwatson> foundations is mostly ok, but we still have a few that need polishing
<pitti> bah, it's just not the same on IRC, without seeing slangasek's boggled face IRL
<lool> slangasek: We expect to work until the last minute on imx51/babbage bug fixes, the kernel is quite rough and we're seeing some userspace issues
<cjwatson> and there are a few extra-FF ones, like James' daily builds / dist. dev. work
<cjwatson> slangasek: I'm curious about grub2 ...
<slangasek> oh, oops, one minute is too small a window - I thought jokes meant we were done ;)
<pitti> new ATI xorg driver is in jaunty now
<rtg> slangasek: I'll get ATI kernel patches in the next upload
<slangasek> cjwatson: I have email from evand saying that grub2 is only available for preseeding; is that how we want to ship it?
<slangasek> rtg: excellent, thanks :)
<lool> Oh and I'm happy to report UNR is in a good shape
<cjwatson> slangasek: perhaps we should promote it to something you can select in expert mode
<slangasek> right, that sounds good to me
<cjwatson> slangasek: which is how it is in Debian anyway
<cjwatson> so that's just reverting a patch
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to make grub2 available in installer expert mode
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to make grub2 available in installer expert mode
<slangasek> cjwatson: besides that, I think we're already there code-wise
<cjwatson> slangasek: lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/grub-installer/ubuntu r714 FWIW
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Hardware testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware testing
<slangasek> cjwatson: ack, thanks
<cjwatson> grub-pc will have to go in main for it to work
<slangasek> ah
<cjwatson> err ... maybe
<cjwatson> try it :)
<slangasek> will do. :)
<cjwatson> hardware testing fell victim to the udev/partitioner races, I know
<cjwatson> fader: have you had a chance to retry with server CD 20090311.1 yet?
<slangasek> fader: mdz also writes that he's expecting some reporting today; is that done / linked from somewhere?
<fader> cjwatson: It was supposed to happen overnight but there was a checkbox issue that prevented it.  He's working on it now, so we should have a retest later today sometime.
<mdz> fader: expecting an up-to-date test report for all operational hardware
<cjwatson> fader: right, ok
<fader> Reporting is coming up now... schwuk was working on the report.  It should be available in ~5 minutes.
<cjwatson> fader: I started a bit late due to a doctor's appointment, so will be around a little more into the evening
<cjwatson> in case that's useful
<fader> cjwatson: Great.  I am in Montreal now and will be flying back to the US this evening but I think that's fairly late into your night anyway
<cjwatson> definitely
<fader> So I will bug you if and when I can reproduce that issue.
<slangasek> ~5min - let's move on and fader can catch us up with the report when it's available
<cjwatson> it's useful to know that you have a 50-75% reproduction rate, though; that will really speed things up
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Regressions
<slangasek> mdz asks if we know whether the regressions list is getting shorter or longer over time
<slangasek> robbiew: ISTR you had some conversations with QA about this?
<robbiew> hmmm
<cjwatson> I don't have hard numbers, but the regressions-potential list looks about the same as the last time I looked at it
<cjwatson> still only two bugs there that are obviously foundations (one of those unreproducible)
 * robbiew recalls something...but pretty sure he didn't follow through :/
 * robbiew will follow up
<slangasek> yes, the count doesn't look much different to me
<cjwatson> http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/complete-graphs/regression-potential/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/complete-graphs/regression-potential/
<robbiew> slangasek: I know mdz was interested in seeing new regressions for the week highlighted in this meeting
<cjwatson> also other directories in there with obvious names
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh hey, nice
<robbiew> slangasek: as well as any that closed...basically tracking th incoming/closure rates
<slangasek> robbiew: ah, yes - that means having state somewhere telling us when bugs are marked as regressions
<cjwatson> it's a little hard to follow the numbers there
<slangasek> which LP itself doesn't appear to give us :/
<cjwatson> since there's no "all open states" line
<slangasek> right
<cjwatson> bdmurray: ^- would be useful
<cjwatson> gut feel looks like up somewhat over the last month or two, but down from levels at the same point last release
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Beta testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Beta testing
<slangasek> mdz mentions that, as we've made some infrastructural changes this cycle, it would be useful to include a call for testing with pointers to test plans as part of the beta announcement
<slangasek> he gives hotkeys as an example
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> based on the technical overview, presumably
<slangasek> are there others calls for testing we want to include in the beta announcement?
<cjwatson> ext4 perhaps?
<cjwatson> most of the new features we've implemented are probably candidates
<slangasek> I would tend to shy away from that one because we already know what the biggest ext4 issue is
<slangasek> and having broad testing is probably not going to get us actionable feedback?
<slangasek> (just "ext4 ate my files!")
<robbiew> boot speed? :P
<mdz> "make sure your system still boots"
<mdz> suspend/resume is another
<pitti> upgrades on ATI hardware
<pitti> (for the fglrx -> ati transitioning)
<pgraner> mdz: ack we are doing a CFT for beata on suspend resume
<lool> Frequency scaling?
<pitti> lool: how is that new?
<mdz> notifications
<lool> pitti: It's in kernel and relies on particular ordering of driver init
<cjwatson> Kickstart LVM support
<pitti> lool: oh, you mean test that it still works properly?
<lool> pitti: yes
<mdz> update management
<slangasek> pgraner: is there a test plan written up in the wiki currently?  Then I can link to it in the beta announcement, in addition to any CFT you guys do
<mdz> pulse audio?
<lool> slangasek: Hey why don't you go over jaunty-changes for the last 6 months?
<cjwatson> computer-janitor
<pgraner> slangasek: yes ogasawara can work with you on that
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to get suspend/resume test plan from ogra
<slangasek> er
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to get suspend/resume test plan from ogra
<cjwatson> accessibility in installer / live CD (was busted, has been fixed)
<slangasek> will fix the action in post-production :-P
<cjwatson> LVM by default on the server
<slangasek> lool: that sounds... inefficient
<pgraner> slangasek: that should be ogasawara
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to get suspend/resume test plan from ogasawara, who is not interchangeable with ogra
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to get suspend/resume test plan from ogasawara, who is not interchangeable with ogra
<pgraner> slangasek: :-)
<ogra> well, if she takes over ARM enablement, i'm happy to write nifty plans :)
<slangasek> heh
<lool> slangasek: I was just kidding :)
 * lool should include a :-P next time
<slangasek> ok, I think that gives me a good list to work with, thanks; I'll collate those suggestions and follow up with people individually for details as necessary
<slangasek> fader: does schwuk happen to have that report ready?
<fader> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<fader> He's adding in the notes about machines that are untested (i.e. RT tickets, status of hardware with issues)
<fader> I will update the report once that data is available
<pitti> hm, details link is again needing login
<slangasek> ah, anticipating my question :)
<fader> slangasek: waiting for the right time :)
<robbiew> mine too
<fader> Details leads to the certification website; if you need a login please email me
<cjwatson> three failures, all Kubuntu; is that a specific issue with Kubuntu or coincidence?
<fader> cjwatson: It's a coincidence... the report right now is showing only the most recently tested image.  We're actually testing a *lot* more than you see here.  My plan for the next iteration of this is to show all the various images as well
<fader> It just hasn't made it in yet as I've been struggling to make sure things get tested... now that that is slowly falling into place I can focus more on improving the data that we're sharing
<fader> (Or will be able to once the obvious laptop testing break is fixed, but cr3 is working on that)
<slangasek> that's it from me - anything else before we adjourn?
<cjwatson> should a summary of the cert testing be rolled into http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/weatherreport.html now that it's more useful?
<slangasek> good idea
<fader> cjwatson: I'd be happy to work with ogasawara to get that in if you can tell me what would be useful to see there
<slangasek> fader: a pass/fail/untested count, plus a link to the full report
<fader> Are you looking for a full report on all hardware or just a simple status like pass/fail count?
<fader> slangasek: Great, I'll contact ogasawara about that and get that in there
<cjwatson> I suspect a one-line summary kind of thing would fit better
<slangasek> [ACTION] fader to follow up with ogasawara about linking the HW cert report from the weather report
<MootBot> ACTION received:  fader to follow up with ogasawara about linking the HW cert report from the weather report
<cjwatson> perhaps X failed out of Y tested
<cjwatson> ... right, as slangasek said but I was too dopey to read
<fader> Hehe
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:56.
<pitti> thanks everyone
<slangasek> thanks, all. :)
<MTecknology> eh... nvm
<MTecknology> sorry, wrong chan
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-03-15
<Guest79195> hey ubunteros
<kees> mdeslaur: quick meeting?
<mdeslaur> yep!
<mdeslaur> good morning kees!
<kees> morning!  :)
<jjohansen> morning
<kees> heya jjohansen
<mdeslaur> hi jjohansen
<kees> okay, this week will see a kernel security publication.  builds went fine over the weekend.
<mdeslaur> cool
<mdeslaur> just in time for the next one :)
<kees> after that, there are a few embargoed things to do this week.
<kees> I got a bit behind on community bits while racing the beta freeze
<mdeslaur> yeah, I'll handle the community stuff this week
<kees> beyond that, nothing jumps out at me.
<mdeslaur> there's quite a few thingies
<mdeslaur> I'm working on libpng and will probably look at samba too
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me
<kees> jjohansen: got anything?
<kees> anyone else have stuff for the security team?
<jjohansen> not really, we need to sit down and setup security tests for EC2 sometime but that isn't urgent
<kees> jjohansen: ah yeah.  just let me know when you've got an instance up, and we can poke around at it.  maybe get kirkland to help us with the screen/account sharing
<kees> alrighty then.  thanks everyone, meeting done.  :)
<jjohansen> woot, short and sweet
<kirkland> jjohansen: kees: happy to help
<jjohansen> kirkland: thanks
<Claudinux> hi
<doctormo> hey gang
 * pleia2 waves
<Pendulum> hi pleia2, doctormo
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:00. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ZachK_> Yo hommiea
<pleia2> ok folks, welcome to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project meeting :)
<pleia2> our agenda is up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
 * doctormo waves
<pleia2> we'll give people a couple minutes to arrive, first item on the agenda is nigelb's and it doesn't look like he's around yet
<Vantrax> huzzah
 * cprofitt reads the agenda
<bodhi_zazen> Why do we not skip to #2 then ?
<pleia2> well, it looks like the whole board is here so we can just start with #2
<cprofitt> just tried to raise nigel in UBT channel
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Team Structure
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure
<doctormo> pleia2: you or I?
<pleia2> doctormo: you touched base with everyone, so I think you should
<humphreybc> hi
<doctormo> OK, so we've been having a go at the learning/educational problem for ubuntu for about a year
<humphreybc> hope i be not too late
<doctormo> We set up a board which encompassed the primary go getters of the project's inception.
<pleia2> humphreybc: just getting started :)
<doctormo> In time we found that each of our goals and directions was different, complimentary, but differing.
<humphreybc> groovy
<doctormo> This lead to misunderstandings, the project moving in multiple directions and in the end a demoralising effect.
<Vantrax> yep
<doctormo> We want to fix this problem, and at it's core is this multiple goal problem.
<humphreybc> sure
<ZachK_> doctormo: Sounds like you need a common goal
<Vantrax> ZachK_, hes getting to that
<doctormo> The proposition is this: That the UCLP project move from being a project and into being a social hub. From here we have our 3 main projects.
<humphreybc> ZachK_: I think they have a common goal, but differing ways of reaching it
<Vantrax> those projects are defined as?
<doctormo> Each project should be lead and directed by the people most keen on that area, in a way and with rules that are suitable for that project.
<Vantrax> with some sort of commonality and oversight?
<bodhi_zazen> social hub , lol, no offense, but it made me laugh
<ZachK_> Agreed bodhi_zazen
<doctormo> 1. Materials for Educational establishments, published in the most compelling way for schools to adopt.
<doctormo> 2. Course materials, the writing of new material, lesson plans.
<Vantrax> Social hub might be the wrong term, but it is not a bad idea
<doctormo> 3. The organisation of teaching in the ubuntu community it's self, IRC, LoCo physical classrooms etc
<Vantrax> strike that, probably is the wrong idea
<humphreybc> I think what Martin means is to move away from the board idea
<doctormo> Vantrax: There would be no oversight, these projects would be seperate, the leadership would be accountable to their contributors only.
<humphreybc> boards, when they don't work, are as productive as a cow turd in a paddock
<cprofitt> 0/
<Vantrax> humphreybc, they work well for lighting fires tho
<pleia2> "Learning" would be a hub were people can come to seek out these materials and get in touch with each of them
<cprofitt> so we have three sep. projects... under an umbrella idea of UCLP?
<pleia2> cprofitt: *nod*
<cprofitt> each 'project' would have its own leadership
<cprofitt> and own members
<cprofitt> ?
<doctormo> Yes
<doctormo> Of course nothing is to stop people being members of all
<doctormo> But the project's rules can be different
<doctormo> For example
<doctormo> The conflict over licensing
<cprofitt> As far as resources... this might be an issue... or not...
<doctormo> The contributors project (2) needs to have strict licensing.
<ZachK_> What about documentation?
<doctormo> but the publishing project (1) and the events project (3) need not be so strict.
<pleia2> ZachK_: the project is about course development, the ubuntu-docs team is for straight documentation
<cprofitt> would both the teaching and the edu team need their own Moodle servers if they planned to use Moodle or would they still share one?
<bodhi_zazen> Which project would use Moodle ?
<doctormo> cprofitt: Volunteers aren't resources, they'll come to the thing they're most interested in or where they see a need, I see no difference in this.
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: 1
<bodhi_zazen> in terms of contributing to courses and admin a moodle site
<cprofitt> doctormo: not talking about 'people' -- the Moodle server.
<doctormo> bodhi_zazen: 1. is more likely to use moodle, 3 could possibly.
<doctormo> cprofitt: I'm sure moodle servers can be set up, we have multiple sysadmins, if ever it became an issue.
<cprofitt> in our original view Moodle courses were going to be for both Asychronous and Sychronous courses
<bodhi_zazen> I do not mean use moodle from a user perspective
<cprofitt> so a Moodle course might also have an IRC component...
<bodhi_zazen> I mean course content and organization
<nigelb> \0
<cprofitt> and an IRC course may have a Moodle component
<doctormo> Of course any of the project's can do their own writing, can get their source material from anywhere.
<cprofitt> that is why I was asking about the Moodle server
<ZachK_> nigelb: Is here!
 * pleia2 nods at doctormo 
<pleia2> so the projects will certainly collaborate a lot
<doctormo> So, it's likely that we'd fall into our perspective projects and be able to focus on them full throttle without having to throttle someone going somewhere else.
<bodhi_zazen> A server != Moodle, on a server one can use any number of methods, moodle is, IMO, a specific method of content presentation, I do not think were are talking sys admin of apache here , lol
<cprofitt> would the 3. team share the moodle server with the 1. team?
<pleia2> cprofitt: if they want, if they're unwilling or unable 3 could have the option of hosting one too
<doctormo> cprofitt: That's up to 3 and 1 projects to discuss and come to arangements about.
<doctormo> cprofitt: although I stress that no project is bound to any tech if they don't want to use it.
<cprofitt> so we gain some autonomy... but could (key word could) lose some cooperation
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: assuming #1 has a moodle server, it's up to them to decide who has duties like being the sysadmin
<doctormo> It's the leadership that is responsibile for defning that.
<cprofitt> I would not want anyone to be bound to anything
<bodhi_zazen> I think it is a good idea to split off those who wish to run Moodle from the rest
<doctormo> cprofitt: We would gain autonomy and I think we have pathways which can bind our cooperation.
<bodhi_zazen> this does not, as doctormo says, mean we can not work together
<cprofitt> one of the things that happened with UCLP is that when the UFBT (not the UBT) started developing this idea in the EDU Focus Group we saw Moodle as the primary vehicle... which as you said has changed...
<bodhi_zazen> but moodle is a very specific platform, imo, with unique requirements that do not always meet the broader goals
<cprofitt> I just want to ensure that each group has the resources to do what they need
<pleia2> cprofitt: it was never my intention as part of UBFT EDU focus group to use moodle, I was always interested in -classroom and loco
<bodhi_zazen> for example a moodle project does not need to mandate ascii docs or bzr
<cprofitt> I agree that with what the UCLP developed in to that Moodle did not meet broader goals
<doctormo> Oh humphreybc above, he's here from the Ubuntu Manual team, wants to learn and collaborate some more.
<pleia2> so it hasn't "changed" - we all started with differing goals
<humphreybc> hi everyone :)
<cprofitt> pleia2: It was the initial intention of the UFBT EDU FG to use Moodle
<humphreybc> how are you guys going for material?
<cprofitt> I know... because the EDU FG was me... and later Vantrax and I
<pleia2> cprofitt: ah, it had moved on from there by the time I joinde :)
<cprofitt> but as you said you had a different intent
<bodhi_zazen> I agree with cprofitt
<doctormo> humphreybc: We can get to that after the org stuff
<cprofitt> as did Doctormo
<humphreybc> righteo
<pleia2> I joined EDU via -classroom
<bodhi_zazen> the goals of this team were eatablished by the UBT, EDU FG
<bodhi_zazen> Other people joined the project with different goals and took the project away from the original set of goals
<bodhi_zazen> IMO at leasta
<cprofitt> ... so to be clear we would be splitting off the groups we originally brought together
<bodhi_zazen> *least
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: so would you see #1 as "Moodle" ?
<doctormo> Aye, I agree bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> I see Moodle as a separate project, call it what you will
<cprofitt> in the interest of serving the community better...
<pleia2> I was invited to EDU with my classroom work, I think it's a bit unfair to say that I "took the project away"
<cprofitt> and instead of having a tight integration it would be more loose.
<doctormo> cprofitt: We'd be making autonomous the leadership, disolving the board and basically making UCLP an umbrella.
<bodhi_zazen> but working on a moodle server has not been the priority of the UCLP
 * cprofitt nods doctormo 
<pleia2> regardless, would we agree that having one section devoted to "Moodle" is appropriate?
<cprofitt> I can see that.
<bodhi_zazen> the UCLP is interested in implementing such material, and others, to set up actual classrooms, which is related, but also different
<pleia2> maybe have the original old UBT crew run that? ( cprofitt, Vantrax and bodhi_zazen )
<doctormo> pleia2: That's really up to the leaders of that project I think.
<cprofitt> pleia2: I think a dedication to Moodle (or some other LMS) would be most appropriate
<cprofitt> I hesitate to lock us in to Moodle forever, but a great deal of time and testing was put in to choose Moodle
<Vantrax> I think the idea was, and still is, to have efforts to educate users about Ubuntu to have a common point
<cprofitt> so in a broad sense I think the titles you originally chose are acceptable...
<bodhi_zazen> There are other similar platforms to moodle, and we are not stuck on that specific platform ...
<pleia2> ok, so a group devoted to delivering course material in a format for educational institutes, for which right now the vest vehicle is Moodle
<bodhi_zazen> but the general concept ...
<pleia2> s/vest/best
<doctormo> So UCLP can retain some broad goals (sort of like the UN) and the projects have their narrow focus that they can run with.
<cprofitt> 1. = Asychronous education with a focus towards methods used by traditional educational institutions including virtual K-12 and higher ed
<pleia2> cprofitt: +1
<Vantrax> We do need come commonality in the way things are done, else it becomes confusing, especially for a new user looking for help and information
<doctormo> Vantrax: Educating ubuntu users, that's project 3.
<cprofitt> doctormo: I think 3. is not juse educating Ubuntu users
<Vantrax> doctormo, how is it just 3?
<cprofitt> or there will be a cross between 1 and 3
<pleia2> there is some cross between 1 and 3
<cprofitt> it is more a focus on sychronous learning environments
<doctormo> Vantrax: Well 2. isn't likely to interact with users directly.
<Vantrax> no, but that is still the focus of it
<cprofitt> 3 would be in-person or IRC type sychronouse education efforts
<Vantrax> that is the goal, the reason for producing the content
<cprofitt> ... to sum up if I can
<cprofitt> feel free to tear down
<bodhi_zazen> The teams as proposed will need to work together in some extent, and using this channel or others to coordinate would be fantastic
<cprofitt> after
<pleia2> cprofitt: please go ahead
<Vantrax> this distinction is largely academic, and all at the back end.
<doctormo> Vantrax: Not quite, it may be the reason of some contributors to write, but the writing is a goal unto it's self.
<cprofitt> 1.  = Asynchronous
<cprofitt> 3. = Synchronous
<bodhi_zazen> for example, if a course if developed for -classroom, they may want to use the content on the moodle server, or not
<cprofitt> 2. = overall documentation and tools on how to produce courses
<cprofitt> yes?
<bodhi_zazen> and they may have content to add to the moodle server, or not
<doctormo> cprofitt: yes
<pleia2> cprofitt: yep!
<doctormo> bodhi_zazen: Yes, and the moodle server can take material from multiple sources.
<doctormo> bodhi_zazen: Since I can forsee that course material writing won't focus on applications.
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: and I agree entirely, we'll work together a lot, the separate is exclusively to have several strong teams with clear goals, rather than one weak one fighting over primary goals
<bodhi_zazen> I would support that, as I feel a moodle server takes a fair amount of attention
<Vantrax> the key is to coordinate those three projects so they appear transparently to someone who puts in a live CD and wants information
<pleia2> Vantrax: right, which is why "Learning" as an umbrella will still exist
<bodhi_zazen> In an ideal world, let us imaging doctormo wants to run a course on Apache admin ...
<bodhi_zazen> He may start with wiki and moodle server
<Vantrax> and the point of learn.ubuntu.com
<bodhi_zazen> and may use existing docs
<bodhi_zazen> or he may make his own and contribute back in a format to either wiki or moodle
<bodhi_zazen> something like that ?
<pleia2> well, probably s/wiki/bzr+asciidoc
<doctormo> bodhi_zazen: Yes
<pleia2> but yes
<bodhi_zazen> The moodle folks can then decide if they can or want to add an apache course, and hopefully they would
<bodhi_zazen> so ...
<doctormo> Vantrax: I think learn.ubuntu.com would be a good place to put user facing, community courses, with large buttons to 'contribute to writing' and 'educational institutions go here'
<doctormo> But that's totally up for debate.
<bodhi_zazen> Next time pleia2 wants to -classroom apache she will not potentially find most of the work done and go from there ?
<Vantrax> that would be what I would think
<bodhi_zazen> s/not/now
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: yep
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<cprofitt> so... what becomes of learn.ubuntu.com?
<bodhi_zazen> I think splitting makes the most sense
<pleia2> cprofitt: I agree with doctormo's plan
<cprofitt> is it a shared site... or controlled by 1 or 3
<pleia2> shared site pointing to different sections of the project
<cprofitt> k
<Vantrax> I dont think it s a split as much as having focus groups working on specific projects as part of a broader effort
<cprofitt> what address would we give the LMS?
<bodhi_zazen> No, it is a split
<Vantrax> cprofitt, learn.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> Vantrax: it's a split because the council will dissolve
<pleia2> no oversight between teams
<bodhi_zazen> a split in leadership and specific teams
<cprofitt> Vantrax: with the exception that there is no leadership above the projects
<Vantrax> true
<cprofitt> each project would be its own
<cprofitt> so the LMS would be at learn.ubuntu.com - confirm pleia2, doctormo, bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> LMS ?
<Vantrax> learning management system
<Vantrax> ie moodle
<Vantrax> or one of a half dozen others
<bodhi_zazen> IMO we should make a front page w/ links to resouces
<bodhi_zazen> so moodle would be at
<doctormo> Vantrax: I think that course writing has no claim on the domain.
<pleia2> cprofitt: no, learn.ubuntu.com would probably be a static page saying "click here for moodle" "click here to develop courses" etc
<bodhi_zazen> learn.ubuntu.com/moodle
<pleia2> "click here to teach your loco members! :)
<pleia2> etc
<doctormo> But a contribute to writing link would be most welcome.
<bodhi_zazen> People could have learn.ubuntu.com/foo or they could have independent servers, such as wiki, which we would then linky to
<cprofitt> do we have to get approval again for the domain from Canonical since the concept has changed?
<bodhi_zazen> or irc / forums for support questions
<pleia2> cprofitt: canonical has not actually given us the domain yet, we still have to go through an approval process
<doctormo> cprofitt: possible.
<bodhi_zazen> no, we need to present a working project to Canonical for final approval
<cprofitt> it sounds like learn.ubuntu.com may not even be needed -- the wiki can serve as a sign post
<bodhi_zazen> when we are ready they will review the project
<doctormo> I think one of the projects should go after the domain and the others simply get good linking from the front page. That way the approval process doesn't need a central gov.
<Vantrax> cprofitt, the idea was to use learn.ubuntu as its a big signpost that is easy to find, and linked from the front page of the Ubuntu.com site
<cprofitt> Vantrax: ok
<pleia2> doctormo: yeah, would probably make sense for the moodle people to have it, since they'll have need for a webserver anyway
<cprofitt> I know when discussed with dinda in the past it was the Moodle site
<humphreybc> learn.ubuntu.com is good
<pleia2> but the front page must reference everyone :)
<cprofitt> but in the end it does not matter
<bodhi_zazen> IMO a front page would be best, it is most flexible
<Vantrax> and the idea pitched for that was to use it as a online learning portal for people learning to use ubuntu.
<cprofitt> in general I think a front page controlled by Canonical with links makes the most sense
<bodhi_zazen> It is trivial to update a index.html or index.php
<doctormo> OK pleia2, would you like to put in a deccission for the meeting?
<bodhi_zazen> harder to customize moodle
<doctormo> So we can talk more about the intreseting implications. :-D
<cprofitt> it allows for each project to control their server and not deal with what, I have heard, is a sometimes slow process to have Canonical make changes
<Vantrax> bodhi_zazen, moodle is index.php:P
<pleia2> ok, shall we vote to split?
<bodhi_zazen> yes =)
<doctormo> one last vote for the road.
 * cprofitt motions to vote on dissalution of the board and UCLP
<Vantrax> id rather not have canonical run the learn.ubuntu.com page
<bodhi_zazen> but that does not mean it is easy to re write the moodle front page, lol
<pleia2> [VOTE] Dissolve board and split the team into Asynchronous, Synchronous and overall documentation and tools on how to produce courses Sections
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Dissolve board and split the team into Asynchronous, Synchronous and overall documentation and tools on how to produce courses Sections.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<doctormo> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from doctormo. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<pleia2> hooray :)
<humphreybc> well, that was nice
<doctormo> OK, time to move the code branches to a new owner... ->
<pleia2> we can worry about the domain later
<pleia2> do we need to talk at all right now about who is leading up which of these new sections?
<bodhi_zazen> Vantrax: and cprofitt either of you two interested in discussing a moodle project ?
<cprofitt> so we will delete the UCLP LP team or leave it?
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<doctormo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning will have to be a signpost
<bodhi_zazen> delete it , IMO
<doctormo> So we'll get the course writing stuff moved.
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen: I think you, I and Vantrax (if he is interested) should discuss the Moodle site.
<Vantrax> yep
<bodhi_zazen> We should set a time
<cprofitt> that was our part of this baby to begin with...
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Initial "split" delegation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Initial "split" delegation
<pleia2> doctormo has primarily been in charge of course development, so I tihnk it goes without saying that he takes that
<doctormo> It's pretty much obvious that I'll be SABD for course writing. Although I'm trying to come up with a catchy name.
<Vantrax> yep
<pleia2> (I'll be involved with that too, but I'm a vollower there :))
<pleia2> follower, gah, typing
<Vantrax> pleia2, you want to update dinda on how we are going to move forward?
<bodhi_zazen> pleia2: what project are you taking ?
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: I'll gather my Classroom troops for #3
<Vantrax> so all the projects go back to how they were before we dragged em all in?
<bodhi_zazen> No, and yes
<bodhi_zazen> there should be better cooperation then there was B$
<bodhi_zazen> s/B$/B4
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen: Vantrax: https://launchpad.net/ubuntueduproject
<pleia2> [ACTION] Loose delegation: #1: bodhi_zazen, cprofitt, Vantrax; #2: doctormo; #3 pleia2
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Loose delegation: #1: bodhi_zazen, cprofitt, Vantrax; #2: doctormo; #3 pleia2
<cprofitt> that was a project I created a while back
<pleia2> doctormo: I think nigelb's topic can be bumped into your project's court
<doctormo> So this comes down to meetings
<doctormo> We'll probably be organising our own project's meetings
<cprofitt> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntueducators
<cprofitt> Vantrax: bodhi_zazen: that is the team -- that has some educators in it already
<Vantrax> cool
<Vantrax> it was fun while it lasted, lets all get back to what we do best and try and work together better
<pleia2> :)
<_marx_> +1
<pleia2> any other topics to discuss right now?
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> no...
<Vantrax> i hope that as classroom and the loco groups develop content it will filter upstream to the moodle site so we can format and add it
<cprofitt> we are good thanks pleia2
<humphreybc> well
<Vantrax> so it can be used again
<humphreybc> i'll ask again
<humphreybc> how are you guys for material?
<cprofitt> if anyone wishes to discuss some of the moodle (lms) issue please join ##ubuntu-edu
<pleia2> humphreybc: for me it's a bit early to say
<Vantrax> humphreybc, so who we talking to now
<pleia2> I have a backlog of material from Ubuntu User Days
<humphreybc> Vantrax: ?
<humphreybc> well, the manual project has a truckload of material
<Vantrax> humphreybc, materials for what, in context and purpose
<doctormo> humphreybc: please come to #ubuntu-learning-courses if you want to talk abut writing collab.
<humphreybc> Vantrax, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> or, wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<pleia2> ok, so I see the subchannels being:
<Vantrax> I think there was always an intention to repackage/rewrite materials from the ubuntu manual for an online and interactive method of learning
<humphreybc> well that's good
<duanedesign> i was gonna ask about the irc channels :) ive just seen two mentioned and neither are the one i have used in the past for UCLP
<duanedesign> will 1, 2, 3 each have a channel?
<pleia2> #1 ##ubuntu-edu; #2 #ubuntu-learning-courses
<pleia2> and #3 will probably be a mix
<_marx_> downsteam: how to get this out to LoCo's
<pleia2> -learning itself, #ubuntu-classroom-backstage
<duanedesign> thank you pleia2
<pleia2> and wherever else we spread our magic :)
<duanedesign> lol, nice
<pleia2> ok, I'll wrap this up then
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:51.
<Vantrax> so long and thanks for all the fish
<doctormo> Thanks guys!
<humphreybc> i'm pimping my server
<humphreybc> woops
<humphreybc> that was the wrong convo :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-03-16
<dholbach> pleia2, popey, nixternal: around?
<popey> dholbach: ya
<dholbach> Technoviking: still there? :)
<Technoviking> morning
<dholbach> I pinged sabdfl but he might be busy with other stuff
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda only lists "Council election process, and standardization thereof" which should be resolved with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
<dholbach> do you know of any other items we should discuss?
<persia> I'll note that some of my email regarding developer membership was discussed at last week's TB meeting : those not seeing more discussion in email who have specific interest may want to review that log.
<persia> Out of that came an action item for me to repropose something different, which I'll be sending to the CC and TB in due course.
<dholbach> thanks a bunch persia
<dholbach> pleia2, Technoviking, popey: anything else?
 * dholbach will update the agenda and the team report :)
<popey> :)
<Technoviking> nope
<dholbach> meeting adjourned - thanks :)
<czajkowski> short and sweet
<Technoviking> cheers, back to bed :)
 * dholbach hugs you all :)
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100316
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100316
<persia> Much better on that time thing this week :)
<plars> yay :)
<davidm> G'day NCommander
 * NCommander pokes GrueMaster ogra ericm_ 
 * GrueMaster pokes back with a sharper, longer stick.
<NCommander> :-P
 * ericm_ pokes back
<NCommander> [topic] Action Items from March 9th, 2010
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from March 9th, 2010
<NCommander> [topic] asac and JamieBennett to triage netbook-launcher-efl bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac and JamieBennett to triage netbook-launcher-efl bugs
<GrueMaster> they are at lean training.  C/O
<NCommander> ah, yes
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to file a bug on LP not tracking bug links to blueprints or sending emails
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to file a bug on LP not tracking bug links to blueprints or sending emails
<plars> also out, skip
<NCommander> all the other action items are ogra's
<NCommander> so
<NCommander> [topic] Current Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Current Items
<plars> so short meeting today! :)
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<NCommander> burndown chart looking happier
<StevenK> Sorry about that
<NCommander> StevenK: np
<plars> hmm, not the beta1 one
<NCommander> Anyone else have anything to say on the burndown charts, or can I move on?
<davidm> NCommander, they look better then I expected so move on
<GrueMaster> forward, hoa
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<ericm_> I guess cooloney is on his biz travel to Beijing
<ericm_> from dove POV, nothing really interested, Marvell has another several fixing patches but none of them addresses any LP bugs
<ericm_> I've sent the git pull request to apw just now, together with a workaround for the audio crash bug in mplayer
<ericm_> and hopefully we'll get a new kernel in several days
<NCommander> nice
<GrueMaster> The mplayer crash was fixed in latest kernel.
<NCommander> ericm_: can I move on?
<apw> will try and get you a test kernel today
<ericm_> NCommander, yes please
<ericm_> apw, thanks
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
<GrueMaster> I've posted some bullets on the meeting web page.
<plars> looks like someone already put some decent status there, thanks GrueMaster
<GrueMaster> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100316\
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100316\
<plars> big thing this week is beta 1
<plars> please help test images (if/when they become available)
<plars> speaking of which... is there something we need to do to get the images to show up there?
<plars> for armel that is?
<plars> oh wait
<plars> they are now it seems
<persia> plars: It's often just a matter of timing, etc.
<plars> nm... odd that I didn't get subscription notification of them
<GrueMaster> I asked yesterday, and they mentioned needing to do a respin due to an Ubiquity issue.
<plars> I am down to just my imx51 board, so anyone who has stuff to test on, would be very useful
<GrueMaster> Yes, interesting.  I didn't either.
 * GrueMaster also notices a netboot with 20081029ubuntu90?
<GrueMaster> date seems to be a bit off.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: looks like a QA tracker bug, i386/amd64 are the same
<GrueMaster> Ah
<StevenK> netboot's are built with the version number of d-i, not the date.
<StevenK> So it isn't a bug
<GrueMaster> ah, that would explain it.
<GrueMaster> In more critical news, I have narrowed down the bug on imx51 suspend.  It isn't a kernel issue.
<GrueMaster> I tested several images since Alpha 3, and found that the image dated 0303 works, but 0305 does not.  The only relevant package that I can tell that changed was pm-utils, but that was a fix for nvidia only.  Doubt that it would make a difference, but I plan on testing it anyways to see.
<GrueMaster> The interesting part is that if you start with an image from 0303 and just run updates, it will still work.
<persia> What!
<plars> GrueMaster: that's not completely true, at least in my experience
<NCommander> GrueMaster: ow
<persia> That points at some difference in how the packages are configured during image build.
<plars> GrueMaster: when I got the new kernel, it broke for me, starting at the 0303 image
<NCommander> plars: GrueMaster: are you both testing on the same hardware revisions?
<plars> reverting to the one that cooloney gave us, fixed it for me
<plars> babbage 3.0 is what I'm on
<GrueMaster> Same here.  I'll test the new kernel on 0303.  I had thought that you reported the new kernel as working, but you had only been doing updates (hence my deduction).
<plars> I reported in the bug that the rebuilt kernel that he pointed to in the previous comment worked for me
<GrueMaster> yes, that was what I thought.
<GrueMaster> I had said that the same kernel failed for me, but I was testing off a newer image.
<GrueMaster> At any rate, it is a regression that so far isn't entirely kernel based.
<plars> clearly there's some more investigation to be done here, but I think we can work on that outside the meeting
<NCommander> [action] GrueMaster & plars to investigate imx51 suspend issue offline
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster & plars to investigate imx51 suspend issue offline
<NCommander> anything else on the topic we need?
<ericm_> NCommander, just wondering why there is no recent image on cdimage?
<GrueMaster> Nothing new to report on the sound issue with dove.  More testing is needed, and the new kernel patches "may" fix it.
<ericm_> still
<GrueMaster> ericm_: 20100316 isn't recent enough?
<ericm_> GrueMaster, convince me with URL?
<plars> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/ubuntu-netbook/ports/daily-live/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/ubuntu-netbook/ports/daily-live/
<GrueMaster> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook/ports/daily-live/20100316/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook/ports/daily-live/20100316/
<plars> ericm_: could be that you are looking under the old location?
<ericm_> no more desktop? sorry I think I missed something
<plars> a few weeks back, desktop was dropped yes
<GrueMaster> Desktop builds were stopped during the sprint.
<plars> in favor of netbook 2d launcher based images
 * ericm_ oops
<plars> :)
 * ericm_ starts the downloading
<persia> Um, just as a side note, there may still be some leftover images, but they were *intended* to be dropped.
<StevenK> Sorry, I probably should have told the kernel guys that
<StevenK> persia: Can we spend some time tomorrow going over that?
<GrueMaster> I thought they knew since they were at the sprint working with us.
<persia> NCommander: Could you action me to kill the rest of the leftover images tomorrow?
<ericm_> StevenK, that's OK - my bad - because I'm still seeing desktop images maybe a weeks ago
<NCommander> [action] persia to bring death to leftover images on antimony
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to bring death to leftover images on antimony
<persia> StevenK: Absolutely.  Sorry it slipped my mind today.
<persia> NCommander: It's beryllium/chromium/etc. I care about : more poisonous metals I leave for other folk, but sure.
<StevenK> ericm_: Where are you seeing those images?
 * persia is also curious, because a week ago there should not have been a desktop live
<StevenK> Indeed, I killed it with fire
<StevenK> persia: Currently only chromium
<ericm_> StevenK, maybe cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily-live/* - but I cannot remember the date, maybe back several weeks ago
<StevenK> ericm_: There's no armel there now :-)
<persia> StevenK: That wasn't true when I synced 12 hours ago, but sure :)
<persia> ericm_: Several weeks ago, I'd believe.
<ericm_> StevenK, persia, now I'm clear - thanks
<StevenK> persia: I just got defeated by the round-robin-dns-but-we'll-only-tell-you-one thing
<persia> Anyway, let's move on.  ericm_ will play with netbook images, and StevenK and I will fiddle scripts to make sure everything is clean.
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<persia> StevenK: Yeah.  I only see multiple names because I watch iftop during my mirror runs sometimes :)
 * NCommander pokes dyfet 
<dyfet> We have decided not to package canola2 for lucid
<persia> Considering how many freezes are in effect, that's a good thing :)
<dyfet> Well more to the point, parts of it are using entirely depreciated dependencies that we should not package either
<dyfet> So we may not be using it in lucid +1 either...
<ian_brasil> but if you have the 2D launcher you have the dependencies, no?
<persia> We did get a different enlightment media player into lucid though.
<dyfet> It also uses etk
 * persia checks
<dyfet> and epsilon
<persia> enna
<NCommander> may I move on?
<dyfet> yes
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<NCommander> OOo is almost resolved. ARM sent a revised patch which I need to test
<NCommander> chromium-browser is showing some odd platform specific behavior. Bugs filed
<NCommander> (also a general bug with it in UNE)
<NCommander> dyfet: anything else to add?
<plars> NCommander: did you file a bug on the decoration/maximus issue?
<dyfet> Yes
<dyfet> I had a small patch for squid ftbfs
<persia> You fixed squid!  Excellent!.
<dyfet> Well, I took Loic's suggestion...
<dyfet> And made it into a patch :)
<NCommander> plars: yeah, its tagged une since its not armel specific
<plars> NCommander: great, I was going to offer if you hadn't already
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<persia> Images seem to be building, but are still a bit buggy.
<persia> squid was the last big missing piece on Monday (didn't check today)
<persia> I'm having an issue that I can't boot some recent images, but I think that's just me.
<persia> Nothing else, unless someone else has something.
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<GrueMaster> Are we going to have kexec this cycle?
<GrueMaster> I believe that is what is needed for dual booting images, right?
<NCommander> GrueMaster: no
<NCommander> not unless something drastically changes between now and release
<GrueMaster> If we are not going to have a supported method for dual booting, I would like to suggest we remove the side-by-side installation option from Ubiquity.
<GrueMaster> Since the only way to dual boot currently is with a lot of magic and a serial port.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: file a bug :-)
<NCommander> anything else, or can I close out the meeting
<ian_brasil> Ubuntu Liquid Update: I spoke with the upstream author of plasma mobile @ the Bossa Conference and he is happy for us to work on making it available in ubuntu :). He said an October time frame is realistic if we help out on Kwin and other issues. There is now an official initiative to break up kde libs http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-maemo/2010-February/000059.html and we are participating on that too. We would like the standing item back and w
<ian_brasil> ant to have everything in-archive by the week of 3rd June, so we can play with Alpha 1
<NCommander> ian_brasil: woo. Sounds like we'll have a ubuntu-liquid-remix for lucid+1
<NCommander> :-)
<ian_brasil> it is not called remix now..just ubuntu liquid
<persia> Well, we'll see.
<NCommander> ian_brasil: I thought it had to be called remix unless approved by the TB
<persia> We'll try to make it not a remix, at least.
<persia> NCommander: No, it has to be called a remix unless it's a flavour.
 * NCommander notes persia would probably know the trademark policy better than I will
<ian_brasil> ok..either is fine by me
<persia> It isn't yet clear whether that needs TB approval (although I think it ought).
<NCommander> ian_brasil: we'll have something. What that something is called is $UNDEFINED
 * NCommander notices a running tread with platform related items, and names
<persia> NCommander: Not trademark, but anyway, yeah.
<NCommander> any objections if I close out the meeting?
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:00.
 * stgraber looks around for a DMB meeting (and check he isn't wrong due to the DST change last weekend)
<persia> You7re an hour early :)
 * bdrung_ is here and waits for it's beginning
<stgraber> doh, is the fridge lying ? I'm using the feed from it and it says it's time ...
<bdrung_> persia: date -u returns Di 16. MÃ¤r 15:05:01 UTC 2010
<cjwatson> here
<persia> Oh, cool!
<persia> Then it is now.
<cjwatson> the DST change was only in the US
<stgraber> great because in an hour I'll most likely not be online :)
<cjwatson> wasn't it?  at least not in Europe
<stgraber> cjwatson: and Canada ;)
<cjwatson> this week is Daylight Confusion Time
<persia> I just thought I remembered the meeting being an hour later local time, and since we don't have DST here, didn't expect any change.
<stgraber> ping nixternal, soren
<stgraber> hmm, ok, let's hope they'll show up soon (also pinged geser in -devel)
<cjwatson> I can't get the agenda wiki page to load here
<cjwatson> oh, now that I say that, there it is
<stgraber> wiki is extremely slow today (as in, worst than usual)
<stgraber> shall we start anyway and hope the others will join ? (we don't have quorum)
<cjwatson> we appointed geser as the chair, but:
<cjwatson> 15:41 <geser> I'm (if my university schedule permits it which I still have to look at)
<cjwatson> anyone contacted Cody?
<stgraber> ok, and I said by mail that I'd be fine being the chair for that meeting as well
<stgraber> cjwatson: nope, can't find him onIRC
<cjwatson> I think we need to revisit the meeting schedule.  This doesn't seem to be working out.
<cjwatson> I don't see him on irc.canonical.com either
<stgraber> looking at the agenda, we only have membership applications to discuss and we have no quorum
<persia> soren was around not too long ago.
<soren> I'm afraid I won't be able to make the meeting today. An unfortunate combination of my wife's schedule at university, DST change, and day care pick ups has rendered today a bit of a planning nightmare for me.
<stgraber> so we can either discuss them now and continue by mail or hope they'll show up
<cjwatson> soren: ah well, thanks
<cjwatson> angelabad's application has one advocate comment, but that is for membership not for MOTU
 * persia goes to deal with the *extremely belated* outstanding action item.
<cjwatson> so I'm a bit confused
<persia> I think angelabad's application isn't complete.  If nobody objects, I'll contact him with some gudeance.
<cjwatson> I'm wondering if he applied for the wrong thing by mistake
<cjwatson> I don't object, I think that would be useful
<persia> I think he's under the impression one must be accepted before one may contribute much.
<stgraber> persia: agreed
<cjwatson> I don't think that, unfortunately, we can do very much with bdrung's application without quorum; it looks well-formed (although only one advocate), and he's well-known, but for a core-dev application we should discuss it with a quorate DMB
<persia> I'll agree with that.
<cjwatson> wasn't there a web site somewhere that one could use to help arrange meeting times?
<cjwatson> I forget its name, it had some kind of whizzy UI
<persia> There was.
<stgraber> doodle.ch
<persia> http://www.doodle.com/
<stgraber> oh, they have .com now :)
<persia> Anyway, doodle :)
<persia> So, do we want to set up a doodle poll?
<stgraber> yeah
 * persia is doing so
<stgraber> great, thanks
<cjwatson> is there anything else we can realistically do?
<persia> http://www.doodle.com/hq3ysna8z3bccm7w
<cjwatson> oh, hello geser
<cjwatson> are you here or is that just your client?
 * geser is here, just arrived back home from work
<persia> Well then.
<persia> stgraber: Shall we start?
<geser> oh, the meeting didn't start yet?
<persia> No, we weren't quorate
<cjwatson> also I believe you're the chair - there was no point selecting another one until we had quorum :)
<persia> I thought stgraber volunteered for chair in an immediate reply to the minutes.
<persia> (but I don't really care who chairs as long as it's not me again)
<bdrung_> let's start
<geser> I can do it (have do it sometime anyways)
<stgraber-n900_> geser: I'd appreciate it
<geser> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:38. The chair is geser.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<stgraber-n900_> a n900 isn't exactly fast to type on
<cjwatson> I've had worse phones for that, but yes :)
<geser> [TOPIC] persia to gather votes from absent members by email
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to gather votes from absent members by email
<nixternal> hola
<geser> what's the status of this? is it done or still pending?
<persia> I fail.  Hoping to get that out *during* this meeting.
<geser> Whose application was this and whose vote is missing?
<persia> cyphermox and nixternal,soren,cjwatson
<cjwatson> oh, really?  sorry I missed that
 * nixternal looks
<cjwatson> I don't have the context right now but happy to process by mail
<persia> cjwatson: You weren't able to make that meeting, and I've been consistently failing to complain about it.
<nixternal> hehe
<geser> [ACTION] nixternal, soren and cjwatson send the missing vote per mail
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nixternal, soren and cjwatson send the missing vote per mail
<geser> is "Administrative Matters" in the agenda a real topic or only category title?
<persia> It's a category title.
<persia> Mail sent.  Sorry to not send it for so long.
<geser> [TOPIC] MOTU application: AngelAbad
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU application: AngelAbad
<geser> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad
<cjwatson> 15:16 <cjwatson> angelabad's application has one advocate comment, but that is for membership not for MOTU
<cjwatson> 15:17 <cjwatson> I'm wondering if he applied for the wrong thing by mistake
<cjwatson> 15:17 <persia> I think angelabad's application isn't complete.  If nobody objects, I'll contact him with some gudeance.
<cjwatson> 15:17 <cjwatson> I don't object, I think that would be useful
<cjwatson> 15:17 <persia> I think he's under the impression one must be accepted before one may contribute much.
<cjwatson> 15:18 <stgraber> persia: agreed
<persia> and he's also not here
<cjwatson> geser: if you also agree, let's action persia to do that
<nixternal> cjwatson: +1 here on contact
<geser> [ACTION] persia contacts angelabad about his application
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia contacts angelabad about his application
 * cjwatson removes the blinkers and notices nixternal is here too
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> w00t, my ninja skills are real!!!
<geser> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Benjamin Drung
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Benjamin Drung
<geser> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenjaminDrung/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenjaminDrung/CoreDeveloperApplication
<nixternal> bdrung_: hola
 * bdrung_ waves.
<bdrung_> my applications lacks comments from asac and pitti
<cjwatson> asac: are you here for a quick comment on bdrung's core-dev application?
<persia> I believe asac to be unavailable at this time.
<nixternal> bdrung_: how would Ubuntu benefit if you were to become a core-dev?
<bdrung_> nixternal: the sponsors queue will be shorter. working on sponsoring main packages in my intention for applying
<bdrung_> ( http://overbenny.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/empty-ubuntu-universe-sponsors-queue/ )
<cjwatson> the archive queue has a huge variance, btw, due to periodic semi-automatic processing :)
<geser> bdrung_: so the only reason why the main queue got so long is because of lacking sponsors? or do you see other reasons too?
<cjwatson> but yes, I'd definitely like to see more people working on the main queue
<cjwatson> bdrung_: I see mozilla-devscripts is in Debian; how has it been received there?
<nixternal> well, I now know what lilypond is. i borrowed some code from their kde client just recently because the code snippet i was looking for they had :)
<cjwatson> I like the look of dh_xul-ext, from a brief glance
<bdrung_> geser: yes, there are not enough sponsors. the quotient between core-devs and patch supplier is worse than the quotient between motus and patch suppliers. core-devs have probably more to do than motus and therefore not enough time for sponsoring
 * jjohansen waves
<nixternal> bdrung_: I see lucene2 FTBFS 7 weeks ago (2010-01-26), any reason why this hasn't been fixed yet in Lucid?
<persia> and we're out of time :(
<cjwatson> urgh, are we running into the server team meeting?
<persia> We are.
<cjwatson> can we extend by 5-10 minutes to get this done?
<cjwatson> jiboumans: ^
<geser> bdrung_: how do you plan to make sure your sponsoring doesn't interfere with work from other core-dev?
<bdrung_> cjwatson: mozilla-devscripts was brought to debian before i start working on it heavily. we use it for many extensions now.
<jiboumans> cjwatson: server team meeting is tomorrow, last i checked
<jiboumans> cjwatson: so please, go right ahead :)
<persia> jjohansen: Which meeting is this?
<JFo> kernel team persia
<cjwatson> oh, kernel team
<cjwatson> sorry, failed to check the calendar
<persia> pgraner: Can we have 10 minutes?
<bdrung_> nixternal: i can't reproduce the lucene2 FTBFS. it fails due to a lack of network access. i tried it with disabled network, but it still compiles. help is welcome.
<cjwatson> bdrung_: we've clashed a bit regarding parts of the units policy, I know.  how do you plan to continue with the changes there?
<bdrung_> geser: if there is a possible conflict, i'll try to contact the previous uploader
<nixternal> pesky xml test
<bdrung_> cjohnston: short: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554172
<ubottu> Gnome bug 554172 in general "g_format_size_for_display() should use correct IEC units" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<cjwatson> (please fix tab completion :-) )  yeah, am subscribed to that, it seems to be making good progress
<cjwatson> you're primarily interested in the GNOME bits then?
<bdrung_> long: i try to get a solution in glib (probably introducing a set of new functions and deprecate the old function) and then port all apps
 * persia notices the kernel team meeting is 17:00 UTC, and breathes easily
<bdrung_> cjwatson: i primarily concentrate on glib, because this library has the biggest impact and solving this lib blocks fixing the other apps.
<pgraner> persia: yea
<persia> bdrung_: To what degree do you feel that teams that focus on groups of packages (e.g. kubuntu team, server team) should be granted authority over those packages?
<bdrung_> cjwatson: i have a patch for thunar waiting for the beta release. kde uses IEC prefixes. therefore a change there isn't that urgent
<cjwatson> right - we're certainly getting to the point where I think those changes should be held off to lucid+1, but that approach makes sense in general
<bdrung_> persia: regarding sponsoring patches?
<persia> bdrung_: That would likely be an example that's closest to what you'd first encounter, given your declared future plans :)
<bdrung_> cjohnston: safe patches to fix SI prefix abuse, but targetting lucid+1 for bigger patches (probably transmission)
<nixternal> hehe, tab complete bites again
<bdrung_> damn, that tab completion mistake happens to often
 * dholbach renames cjwatson to Kamion ;-)
<nixternal> bdrung_: i think my last question is this...what is the current state of eclipse in lucid? (this might lead to another one maybe) :)
<bdrung_> nixternal: we are only a few days away from releasing eclipse 3.5.2-1 to debian. we have to fix lucene2 and someone needs to let libjasper-java pass NEW. Then we can sync (or merge [due to xulrunner-1.9.2])
<nixternal> nice
<bdrung_> persia: i rephrase your question? do you ask, if the upload right can be transferred to one team (like kubuntu team) only?
<nixternal> you think that will get down in time to make it into lucid or it looking to be a lucid+1 deal?
<persia> bdrung_: No.  I ask for your personal opinion about the level of coordination you expect to engage in when working on packages also maintained by such teams.
<bdrung_> nixternal: definitively lucid. it will fix #453036. The source is now free of .exe, .dll, .so, .so.2, *.a, .sl, .jnilib, .jar, .class, and .zip files. Removing the .class files took us some time.
 * nixternal does a bit of a happy dance :)
<bdrung_> nixternal: look at http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-java/eclipse.git;a=summary and you will see that we are actively working on eclipse
<geser> bdrung_: and you are confident that eclipse 3.5.2 won't include new bugs that short before release?
 * persia will support that contention, seeing daily activity from bdrung on eclipse
<bdrung_> persia: i have no clear image yet, but i will try to contact the teams (or asking them for doing the sponsoring themself).
<bdrung_> geser: there is one issue that is not fixed yet, but i don't worry about bugs. 3.5.2 is a bug fix release (compared to 3.5.1) and the packaging has improved.
<bdrung_> geser: the eclipse team has currently 3 active members and some more testers.
<bdrung_> everything answered or did i miss a question?
<persia> stgraber-n900_: You still about?  You said something about time limitations before.
<stgraber-n900_> yeah, I'm away from the office
<stgraber-n900_> but online on my cell :)
<stgraber-n900_> (multi-tasking quite a bit)
<geser> anyone still have questions?
<nixternal> I think I have attention defecit disorder, and because of that, I multi-task for all the wrong reasons
<nixternal> geser: no more from me, I am good
<cjwatson> shall we proceed to a vote?  we all seem to be questioned out
<stgraber-n900_> nothing that wasn't already asked
 * nixternal is ready to vote
<geser> [VOTE] bdrung_ becoming a Ubuntu Core Developer
<MootBot> Please vote on:  bdrung_ becoming a Ubuntu Core Developer.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1 : I'm happy with historical patch complexity, and suckered because bdrung is so very active in so many of my favorite areas.
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<stgraber-n900_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber-n900_. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cjwatson> persia: heh
<nixternal> persia: I agree...really liking the fact we are getting a much better eclipse than in the past
<persia> bdrung_: My the way, you failed to include all your uploads in main in your application.  I found at least a couple more during review.
<persia> nixternal: I get the triumvirate of java, media, and sponsoring though :)
<geser> we are done with voting, right? or I did I miss somebody?
<bdrung_> persia: that's a point for improving launchpad ;)
<persia> heh.
<cjwatson> geser: we're done - missing cody and soren today
<geser> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<dholbach> congratulations bdrung_! :)
<cjwatson> apologies from soren, cody absent
<bdrung_> thanks
<persia> bdrung_: Welcome!
<nixternal> bdrung_: welcome and congrats \o/
<bdrung_> \o/
<nixternal> now just wait a second, frozen main :D
<bdrung_> :D
<geser> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<geser> who volunteers?
 * nixternal 
<stgraber-n900_> I do
<nixternal> gimme next meeting date and time so I can put it in my alarm calendar
<nixternal> 2 weeks from today at 15:00 UTC right?
<geser> nixternal: right
<geser> [AGREED] nixternal to chair the next meeting (fallback: stgraber-n900_)
<MootBot> AGREED received:  nixternal to chair the next meeting (fallback: stgraber-n900_)
<persia> I won't be able to make the meeting next week at that time.
 * persia cancels the doodle poll
<geser> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<geser> Has somebody something we need to discuss?
<geser> persia: only the next meeting or all meetings after this one?
<persia> geser: Only the next meeting.  I have to go onsite for a client.
<persia> And it's in two weeks, not next week.
<geser> [ENDMEETING]
 * persia grumbles about timespans
<geser> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:36.
<nixternal> persia: when was the cyphermox app done, the last meeting?
<persia> No.  A month ago.
<nixternal> oh, ok, thanks
<bjf> Roll Call
 * cking o/
 * smb is here
<bjf> quick meeting with just the 3 of us :-)
 * kamalm o/  (Kamal Mostafa -- new guy starting next week -- I'll be sitting in today)
<bjf> kamalm, Welcome!
 * jjohansen waves
<smb> kamalm, Hi Kamal
<cking> welcome Kamal
<kamalm> thanks!  I'm very excited to be joining you.  :-)
 * ogasawara waves
 * manjo :)
 * apw waves
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<manjo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Action Item: Put out a Call For Testing for the .33 drm stack (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Item: Put out a Call For Testing for the .33 drm stack (JFo)
<bjf> JFo, ^
<JFo> Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (3 bugs, 5 blueprints)
<JFo> ===
<JFo> Beta 1 Milestoned Bugs (45 bugs against all packages (down 29))
<JFo>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (down 8)
<JFo>  * 2 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (up 1)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug (down 1)
<JFo>  * 1 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo> ===
<JFo> Release Targeted Bugs (293 bugs against all packages (up 86))
<JFo>  * 28 linux kernel bugs (up 4)
<JFo>  * 2 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (up 1)
<JFo>  * 1 linux-ec2 bug (no change)
<JFo>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo> ===
<JFo> Milestoned Features -
<JFo>  * 0 blueprints
<JFo>     
<JFo> ===
<JFo> Bugs with Patches Attached:115 (up 2)
<JFo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on
<JFo> Breakdown by status:
<JFo> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<JFo> ..
<JFo> whoops :)
<JFo> yes, I did put the call for testing out. there has been significant traffic on the issue from the X mailing list
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics: (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics: (JFo)
<bjf> already taken care of
<JFo> apologies
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<JFo> == Blueprints ==
<JFo> kernel-lucid-bug-handling:
<JFo>  * I'm almost ready to present my findings on the X wiki debug pages and how I'd like to restructure the Kernel Team pages. I hope to send something on this to the list this week
<JFo>  * I am reworking the way the arsenal scripts gather and process bugs so that I can extend the 'reach' of the script deeper into the backlog. I'll probably do a rather intense round of bug processing during the lull after release freeze.
<JFo>  * I sent out an e-mail to the c-k-t list (meant to send to the k-t list) regarding a wiki page describing the rationale for automated bug processing. Please provide some feedback. I'd like to get this URL integrated into the arsenal scripts soon.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<apw> Discussion thread started on the remaining sub-systems and PATA/SATA driver stat
<apw> us.  Should have patches for immediatly after Beta-1.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin / apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin / apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<apw> We are seeing a lot of issues with i945 and older graphics cards, which includes all the atom netbooks.  This is looking to be new occurance of the i915.powersave problems, we will disable powersaving for these 'older' cards by default.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<manjo> looks like we are getting some useful information as a result of the patch to measure suspend resume times. I am currently looking at the suspend/resume bugs filed recently and trying to get a sense of any common elements we can find.
<manjo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> well, the latest upstream push is sitting ready go out
<jjohansen> I ran git-send-email this morning but apparently my smtp is broken
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<apw> The ureadahead patches are with Foundations for testing.  Again we should have results in time for the first upload after Beta-1.
<apw> ..
<csurbhi> csurbhi ..
<csurbhi> oops ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<bjf> Nothing significantly new this week.
<bjf> I'm several days into my als-driver bug survey and have looked at almost 200 bugs. I'm
<bjf> basicly going through them one by one and adding tags onto them. If they have not had
<bjf> any action for more than a couple months I'm requesting a test of a dev image and the
<bjf> mainline kernel. I'm pretty amazed at the number of bugs that have not seen any attention
<bjf> since their initial submission.
<bjf> The biggest buckets are "no sound at all" and "internal mic not working". There are a
<bjf> few that look like upgrade isses, people running out and buying the latest HW expecting
<bjf> it to "just work", etc.
<bjf> I also see that there are a bunch of bugs that are "past expiration". I asked around
<bjf> about this and was told that the bot that ran around marking these "invalid" had to be
<bjf> turned off because it wasn't smart enought and was invalidating bugs it shouldn't. I
<bjf> was told that a new status is being created "Expired" specifically for these bugs and
<bjf> that the bot would be smartened up. This work is supposed to happen this month.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<apw> the release team has pretty much veto'd putting the pmutils functionality in as it didn't hit b-1
<apw> the rest has been postponed due to workload
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> working on Bug #527208
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 527208 in linux-ec2 "ec2 instance fails boot, no console output on c1.xlarge" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527208
<jjohansen> Have confirmed that it isn't exhibiting under similar circumstances in rackspace cloud
<jjohansen> I haven't made anymore progress on testing pv-ops
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
<apw> Lucid remains at stable v2.6.32.9, though v2.6.32.10 is now available and will be applied once Beta-1 is over.  We have commited patches to expose the DRM backports version such that when v2.6.33.1 DRM patches we can tell that that has occured in bug reports.  We have also changed the default settings for the CDROM trays to allow direct removal of disks, userspace will handle this shortly.
<apw> All of the main kernels (linux, linux-fsl-imx51, linux-mvl-dove, linux-qcm-msm, and linux-ec2) remain unchanged from last week. linux-ti-omap was just accepted into the archive.  Anything which requires a kernel change will have to wait until after beta-1 and will have to pass the abbreviated SRU process (2 acks required).
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
<smb> Dapper:      2.6.15-55.82  (security)
<smb> Hardy:       2.6.24-27.65  (security)
<smb>              2.6.24-27.67  (updates)
<smb> Intrepid:    2.6.27-17.45  (security)
<smb> Jaunty:      2.6.28-18.59  (security)
<smb> Karmic:      2.6.31-20.57  (updates)
<smb>  - LBM       2.6.31-20.22  (updates)
<smb>  - mvl-dove  2.6.31-211.22 (security)
<smb>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-108.21 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-108.23 (proposed)[12]   0/ 1 verifications done (+0)
<smb>  - ec2       2.6.31-304.11 (updates)
<smb> Security update is expected somewhen today (after some final tests)
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<apw> smb,
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<bjf> apw, go
<apw> what is unverified in fsl-imx51
<smb> apw, some build option there, lemme check
<apw> we need to slap #mobile if we're not getting feedback
<apw> ..
<smb> apw, They will get frightened by a security kernel replacing this
<smb> ..
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo> 328 Lucid Bugs (up 48)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential (up 2) ====
<JFo>   * 88 lucid bugs
<JFo> ==== regression-update (no change) ====
<JFo>   * 11 karmic bugs
<JFo>   * 5 jaunty bugs
<JFo>   * 2 intrepid bugs
<JFo>   * 1 hardy bug
<JFo> ==== regression-release (down 2) ====
<JFo>   * 54 karmic bugs
<JFo>   * 22 jaunty bugs
<JFo>   * 11 intrepid bugs
<JFo>   * 4 hardy bugs
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed (no change) ====
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> * Today is another Kernel Team 'regression-' bug day. Thanks for working on these last week. I'll be looking at the schedule for the rest of this release and proposing more bug days to work out regressions to Pete for inclusion in the schedule. I anticipate that, as we move closer to the release freeze, we will probably do more than one bug day a week, but I want to see what the timeframe looks like before I propose that.
<JFo> * I didn't get to schedule a community bug day today as I had planned. I will get things ready to hold another bug day against bugs with patches attached for next week.
<JFo> any comments?
 * apw didn't see much in the way of announcement
<apw> but then maybe he doesn't read enough of his email
<JFo> I need to do both an announcement and a wiki page
<apw> well the day is over here, so ... it needs to be yesterday
<JFo> bjf, can you make that an [Action] V
<JFo> rather
<JFo> bjf, can you make that an [Action] JFo to do both an announcement and a wiki page
<JFo> ?
<bjf> [ACTION] JFo to send out regression bug day announcements on monday
<MootBot> ACTION received:  JFo to send out regression bug day announcements on monday
<JFo> thank you sir
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [ACTION] JFo to do a wiki page on regression bug days
<MootBot> ACTION received:  JFo to do a wiki page on regression bug days
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> [ACTION] JFo to do all the work ...
<JFo> heh
<JFo> -1
<JFo> :P
<apw> ..
<kamalm> I'm starting to process the wealth of information at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase -- that'll keep me busy for awhile!
<kamalm> I look forward to meeting you all in Brussels, if not sooner at the CELF/Collaboration summit in San Francisco in April.
<kamalm> I officially start at Canonical on Monday March 22 -- can't wait!
<kamalm> ..
<JFo> ..
<bjf> apw, go
<apw> no i had nothing ..
<manjo> kamalm, if you find mistakes in the wiki please feel free to fix
<manjo> ..
 * apw notes you are required to fix them :)
<bjf> kamalm, will you be at colab summit?
<kamalm> bjf, its undecided, but I live nearby so it would be easy for me to attend.  Hugh is looking into it.
<bjf> kamalm, if so you will meet several of us, looking forward to it
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:23.
<smb> Thanks bjf
<cking> thanks bjf
<kamalm> manjo, apw: I actually did fix one "typo" in the wiki already :-)  Already mucking about.
<csurbhi> thanks bjf :)
<bjf> kamalm, cool, are you on #ubuntu-kernel as well?
 * apw wanders off to #-k
<kamalm> bjf, I am now ;-)
<Sofanya> Good evening! i'm Novosibirsk Ubuntu TeamLeader.
<czajkowski> Sofanya: you're a bit early for the LoCo council meeting
<czajkowski> Sofanya: it's not till 8pm UTC
<cjohnston> czajkowski: about 11 minutes correct?
<czajkowski> cjohnston: nope 1 hr 10 mins
<cjohnston> czajkowski: fridge says 1900 utc
<czajkowski> Fridge is wrong
<czajkowski> 3td tuesday @8pm UTC is the loco council meeting time
<davmor2> dst in the states has probably thrown it out
<czajkowski> davmor2: aye
<czajkowski> so it's gonna confuse people
 * czajkowski kicks the fridge
<AlanBell> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: March 16 2010, 18:57:10
<davmor2> fridge.....werzzk werzzzk bang smoke
<czajkowski> Grabbing dinner, back in 1 hr
<czajkowski> Ubuntu LoCo council meeting kicking off at 8pm UTC
<mhall119|work> davmor2: fridge says 7pm UTC
<mhall119|work> DST in the states doesn't even come into play
<schultmc> 2000 UTC is what the wiki said - that's 8PM
<mhall119|work> right, so fridge is wrong, but DST isn't to blame
<persia> mhall119|work: There's a bug in the implementation behind the fridge that guesses DST changes based on the timezone of the location of the person last updating that schedule item, and tries to auto-update correctly.
<mhall119|work> oh
<mhall119|work> helpful
<persia> For folk that live in timezones, this is a useful feature.  For folk that mix timezones, this is a huge headache.  For teams that span timezones, this makes the tool essentially unusable 6-8 weeks a year.
<mhall119|work> is there a paperclip that does that?
<persia> paperclip?
<mhall119|work> reference to the annoying MS Office paperclip
<mhall119|work> it was notorious for "helping" in the most detrimental ways
<johanbr> persia, most people live in timezones :)
<mhall119|work> I only live in one
<persia> johanbr: Indeed.  I think that's why it does that.
<mhall119|work> though more and more, I find myself "living" in UTC
<persia> Some people don't.  More teams don't.
<mhall119|work> I need a watch that will switch between 12hour EST and 24hour UTC
<mhall119|work> persia: people don't live in places with DST, but everywhere on earth is covered by a timezone, no?
<johanbr> except the poles, I guess
<persia> mhall119|work: But not everyone lives in a fixed location.  For some time I spent each week in a different country.
<persia> During that time, I scheduled everything in UTC, or it was impossible.
<persia> I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had a job like that.
<persia> (and I strongly disrecommend jobs like that for anyone who thinks it sounds fun)
<dantalizing> persia: lies
<persia> If you like.
<dantalizing> :)
<mhall119|work> dantalizing wants to be a jet setter
<mhall119|work> he'll fly air-dan
<dantalizing> not anymore .. but had fun while it lasted
<czajkowski> just under 25 mins to meeting
<mhall119|work> heh, now you're air-dad
<mhall119|work> with non-stop flights across the livingroom
<mhall119|work> dantalizing: did you see our testimonial?
<dantalizing> yup
<dantalizing> ubuntu needs more nali
<mhall119|work> true, we've had a nali deficiency lately
<czajkowski> popey: JanC itnet7 ping
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:01. The chair is czajkowski.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda
<czajkowski> we'll start by working our way though agenda items and then onto the Approvals/ Reapprovals
<czajkowski> [topic]Reapproval Process/Update
<MootBot> New Topic: Reapproval Process/Update
<czajkowski> just to let folks know we are working ou way through contacting the 30 named teams so far this cycle
<czajkowski> we've been mailing teams and in contact with some to schedule more to be reviewed before May and we may have an extra meeting next week to fit some teams in
<czajkowski> if you are contacted please ack the mail you've recived
<huats> sorry I am late
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> does anyone have any comments on the approval/reapproval process?
<czajkowski> [link]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<czajkowski> is the list of teams we are contacting this cycle
<SandWorm> czajkowski: Novosibirsk Team is here if needed
<czajkowski> SandWorm: just give us a few mins
<czajkowski> [topic] LoCo Contacts to update the IRC Ops page
<czajkowski> Czajkowski
<MootBot> New Topic:  LoCo Contacts to update the IRC Ops page
<czajkowski> jussi01: ping
<czajkowski> [link] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<czajkowski> the IRCC has asked us to mention this to all loco teams
<czajkowski> please ensure your ops contacts are up to date on this page please
<mhall119|work> czajkowski: is that the only place contacts are kept?
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: I'm waiting on jussi01 to arrive to comment he was the one who asked for it to be added to the agenda
<czajkowski> we shall move on and if he comes we can go back to it
<Daviey> \o
<czajkowski> [topic]LoCo Directory Access
<MootBot> New Topic: LoCo Directory Access
<czajkowski> so the love LD dev folks wated to get soe thoughts on this
<czajkowski> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-directory/+bug/526800
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-directory/+bug/526800
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 526800 in loco-directory "Allow more than team admins to manage events" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<czajkowski> Daviey: mhall119|work want to discuss
<Daviey> it's mhall119|work's agenda point :)
<Daviey> mhall119|work: did you get the emails btw?
<mhall119|work> technically it was dholbach
 * czajkowski peers are you both 
<mhall119|work> Daviey: which ones?  my old email address is having problems, I'm trying to switch everything to gmail
<Daviey> okay, this is regarding the events element mainly
<mhall119|work> PM me if it's not related to this
<Daviey> Who should have access:
<Daviey> * Add an event
<czajkowski> perhaps ye can give a bit of background to this please
<Daviey> * Perhaps approve an event
<Daviey> * perhaps veto an event
<Daviey> I'm sure everyone knows what the LoCo Directory is
<Daviey> http://loco.ubuntu.com
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://loco.ubuntu.com
<Daviey> It has the ability to add "events" for your LoCo
<mhall119|work> this originally came up when only admins could add/edit events for a team
<Daviey> Currently only the launchpad team admin can add an "event"
<Daviey> This has been a problem for some teams
<mhall119|work> recently Jono has requested a change to allow any team member to add/edit events
<Daviey> So to try and open it up, we need a method of controling and limited access - whilst still letting people do what they need to do
<huats> This  is a pb we are facing at ubuntu-fr
<czajkowski> huats: yes I believe it was YoBoY who brought this to light
 * cjohnston has to bug an admin to add his weekly ubuntu hour..
<Daviey> Well from today, andy team member can add an event regardless
<Daviey> However, long term we feel there needs to be some control
<mhall119|work> options we have discussed is using an additional launchpad group to specify a team that can manage events for a team
<czajkowski> I beleive it will effect only a few of the larger teams , but I'm not happy with it being a free for all for anyone and everyone to just create events
<JanC> it's certainly a problem if only the team owner can add events
<mhall119|work> and also an approval queue, where any member can add an event, but admins are required to approve them
<pleia2> mhall119|work: I like the approval queue idea, then I can add/update events without having to nag an admin, but there is oversight
<Daviey> Do the LoCo countil have a problem with recieveing an email when an event is added or modded?
<Daviey> This could mean a stack of emails eventually
<mhall119|work> the approval queue means possibly more work for a team's admins, but makes it easier for members to bring up events
<czajkowski> Daviey: aye it could do.
<Daviey> czajkowski: Well for the first version, can the LoCo council let us know :)
<czajkowski> I would like to see it as a small sub group with each team or a person  being able to crete events, that way the admins dont have to get involed if they already know
<cjohnston> +1 for czajkowski's idea
<czajkowski> Daviey: I can't speak for huats JanC itnet7 or popey  but I don't mind not for the begining, I can create  a rule
<Daviey> I suggested to the Local Council - http://pastebin.daviey.com/N5Eu/raw/
<YoBoY> czajkowski: calling me ? ^^
<czajkowski> [link]http://pastebin.daviey.com/N5Eu/raw/
<MootBot> LINK received: http://pastebin.daviey.com/N5Eu/raw/
<itnet7> I think for the sake of timing, it would be fine to implement the way you are suggesting
<JanC> we use LP groups to control access to certain stuff on the ubuntu-be site, so if teh LoCo-directory would do the same, that would make things easier for us too
<huats> Daviey, not a problem either
<pleia2> czajkowski: I still see that as creating a bottleneck, so instead of nagging team admins, I get to go to the event admins...
<YoBoY> hi
<mhall119|work> well it'll be open to any member until after UGJ most likely
<Daviey> JanC: that sounds like a good long term idea, but for first release i would like to try and keep it simple
<czajkowski> pleia2: thats why I would suggest only certain people being able to creae events and their events get automatically published
<Daviey> (from a coding aspect)
<itnet7> I think there should be a role added to each team though to allow the Team Contact/ and or admins flexibility to add members at their discretion
<pleia2> czajkowski: ah, then maybe for other team members they can create, but it has to be approved?
<mhall119|work> pleia2: alternately, we can have the approval queue, and allow a select group of non-admins approve them
<pleia2> sounds good :)
<itnet7> mhall119|work: that sounds good
<cjohnston> agreed
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: yes
<mhall119|work> and is the concensus that this group should be a launchpad group?
<mhall119|work> or can it be something internal to loco-directory
<cjohnston> Whatever is easiest to implement, plus easy for admins to modify... I would think
<czajkowski> so I think  moving forward the dev folks would like  to know if they go the way they've suggested here, we'd use it for our loco teams in creating events and encourage our teams to use it ?
<itnet7> I think it's the best thing since sliced bread! :-)
<ejv> hmmm
<mhall119|work> okay, so we will provide a list of users who can approve events for a team, and an approval queue
 * Daviey doesn't really mind how it should be.  I'm happy for the LC to say "we want this", and for the LD hackers to implement that if feasible.
<itnet7> +1 from me
<mhall119|work> is there any opinions on managing this sub-group through launchpad vs through LD?
<itnet7> I think that users of the sub-group should only have rights granted to the LD
<dantalizing> lp
<Daviey> LP makes more sense.. although i think it's a less clean way overall :)
<czajkowski> lets use the tools we have and use LP please
<mhall119|work> itnet7: it would just be a group in LP, so it can be used however else is desired
<czajkowski> ok are theree any other thoughts on this as I'd like to move on please
<mhall119|work> Daviey: it means more work for us, but I'm okay with that
<itnet7> sweet
<mhall119|work> that also means we can use the team's mailing list to send notices
<Daviey> so o clariffy this is a LP group of event-editors ?
<czajkowski> yes
<Daviey> so a single team for all worldwide loco's?
<mhall119|work> when we make this change, can we default the 'event-editors' team to be the loco team?
<jussi01> Im sorry, Im here now.
<mhall119|work> that way no functionality would change until the loco team decides to
<czajkowski> [agreed] LP dev folks to create a LP group for event-editors, default the event-director team to be the loco team.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  LP dev folks to create a LP group for event-editors, default the event-director team to be the loco team.
<czajkowski> right
<czajkowski> so moving on
<Daviey> thanks
<jussi01> can we jump back to my item?
<mhall119|work> thanks
<czajkowski> [topic]
<MootBot> New Topic:
<czajkowski> Request for loco ops to idle in #ubuntu-irc
<czajkowski> [topic]Request for loco ops to idle in #ubuntu-irc
<MootBot> New Topic: Request for loco ops to idle in #ubuntu-irc
<czajkowski> jussi01: you're up
<jussi01> Ok :)
<jussi01> at the ircc meeting there was a decision to ask the Loco's to try and get ops from their channels to idle in -irc. Ths improves contactability and co-ordination
<jussi01> We also would like to request the Loco's update the contact information here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList for the same reason
<czajkowski> [link]
<MootBot> LINK received:
<czajkowski> [link]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: did you have a question for jussi01 re IRC ops list ?
<jussi01> We need some help with communicating this properly to the loco's.
<mhall119|work> no
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: ok
<mhall119|work> oh, I just wanted to know if that wiki page was the only place contacts were listed
<czajkowski> jussi01: ok well mentioneding it here and we shall mail it out also
<mhall119|work> because people wanted that info in LD
<jussi01> mhall119|work: at the moment I do beleive so.
<jussi01> LD?
<mhall119|work> loco directory
<czajkowski> but I think it would be good for all LoCos to go with this suggestion from the IRCC
<czajkowski> so I'll add it to the mail I'll send out after this meeting
<czajkowski> jussi01: any other comments on this ?
<itnet7> It would be cool to have it in the LD
<jussi01> czajkowski: no, we just need to make sure it gets to all the locos, and communicate that this isnt really changing anything, just making contactability and co-ordination easier
<czajkowski> jussi01: gotcha :)
<czajkowski> [topic] Approval/Reapprovals
<MootBot> New Topic:  Approval/Reapprovals
<jussi01> Thanks!
<czajkowski> [topic] Russia Novosibirsk
<MootBot> New Topic:  Russia Novosibirsk
<SandWorm> we are here
<Sofanya> Good evening! I'm Novosibirsk Ubuntu TeamLeader, Ubuntu Wonam.
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RussianTeam/NSK/ApprovalApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RussianTeam/NSK/ApprovalApplication
<czajkowski> Sofanya: welcome
<czajkowski> anyone else here from your team
<belco> i`m here )
<SandWorm> VadimkaNSK also
<nes> me
<vadimkansk> i'm
<itnet7> http://nsk.ubuntu.ru/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://nsk.ubuntu.ru/
<itnet7> Nice Re-branding!!
<czajkowski> I do like the fact you've gotten the new colour scheme up and running on your site well done !
<nes> thanks!
<czajkowski> Sofanya: so can you tell me about your team, how you get things done, and organise events?
<SandWorm> Sofanya has some trouble with english
<SandWorm> i'm team contact
<czajkowski> SandWorm: ok I dont mind who tells us :)
<SandWorm> well. we have active jabber conference. we use it for coordination
<SandWorm> also we have weekly meetings in sibsutis
<JanC> what's sibsutis ?
<SandWorm> every wednesday in the evening
<vadimkansk> JanC, university
<SandWorm> JanC: SIBSUTIS - Siberian State University of Telecommunication and Informatics
<nes> we are workink accordint program "Fre Software in Schools", installing Ubuntu on classroom machines and teach people to use it
<SandWorm> we have some kind of a club there
<czajkowski> SandWorm: do you have any photos of your event?
<Agafonov> http://nsk.ubuntu.ru/index.php?page=fotootchet-klub-u-samovara-24-02-2010
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://nsk.ubuntu.ru/index.php?page=fotootchet-klub-u-samovara-24-02-2010
<Agafonov> my helping hand :)
<SandWorm> czajkowski: yep. we usually make photos at events
<SandWorm> recently we installed an internet cafe in SibFair
<SandWorm> and have some plans for event, based on sibfair
<JanC> yeah, that sounds like  a good idea for other teams too; provide other organisations with a cheap or free internet cafe
<czajkowski> All of you have done a great job, I think we are ready to vote. Since we are using Mootbot give a second before weighing in please!
<SandWorm> as i counted we have nearly 5 events in sibfair, where we are going to take part
<czajkowski> [vote] Approval of the Russia Novosibirsk LoCo Team
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Approval of the Russia Novosibirsk LoCo Team.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<belco> Siberian Fair is the biggest regional exhibition organizer in Russia
<itnet7> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from itnet7. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<czajkowski> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<czajkowski> I think you've done a great job so far, I think you need to work on your wiki page and add some more content to it regarding links to photos, but to come back soon
<huats> That would be my opinion too
<SandWorm> ok. we'll back
<JanC> I think there are some great things, but like czajkowski says, maybe a bit more documentation would be appropriate
<Agafonov> czajkowski: they do make many, many things offline
<JanC> +0 from me
<MootBot> Abstention received from JanC. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<czajkowski> Agafonov: thats great but we need to see this on the wiki, we're not saying you're not doing anything, we just think you need to document it more on the wiki please.
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 0
<czajkowski> [topic] El Salvador Re Approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  El Salvador Re Approval
<czajkowski> [link]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElSalvadorTeam/ReapprovalApplication2010
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElSalvadorTeam/ReapprovalApplication2010
<JanC> Agafonov: make a list of everything you do (or at least some more detail), and whenever possible add some links to photographs or such...
<itnet7> Hey there El Salvador!
<Agafonov> JanC: we do monthly reports :)
<czajkowski> so who's where from el Salvador
<czajkowski> Agafonov: we can discuss it after meeting but now we need to move on, please
<czajkowski> hmm
<itnet7> Celvin?
<czajkowski> anyone here from el salvador??
<JanC> Agafonov: then link them from the approval page next time!
<ejv> florida up yet, did i miss it?
<czajkowski> [agreed] take el salvador loco application to mailing list
<MootBot> AGREED received:  take el salvador loco application to mailing list
<czajkowski> [topic] Colorado, US LoCo Re approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  Colorado, US LoCo Re approval
<mhall119|work> ejv: not yet
<ejv> sry :)
<czajkowski> anyone from Colorado team  present??
<nerdynick> NerdyNick here for Colorado
<czajkowski> nerdynick: welcome anyone more with you?
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColoradoTeam/ReApprovelApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColoradoTeam/ReApprovelApplication
<nerdynick> Not sure as its the middle of the work day for us
<nerdynick> So where would you like me to start
<czajkowski> nerdynick: in your application, what do you mean by Lack of timely responsiveness & support from the higher ups in the Ubuntu Community
<nerdynick> During our planning of the TIE conference we kept having problems with getting response to questions we had about getting booth equiment
<nerdynick> As well as problems in attempting to get our website on the official ubuntu servers
<nerdynick> ie. colorad.ubuntu-us.org
<czajkowski> nerdynick: can you explain what you mean, what kind of equipment, who were you looking for it from ?
<czajkowski> nerdynick: did you log a ticket on RT ??
<JanC> I never had problems getting a conference pack, but that only a box with some t-shirts, ballpoints, stickers, etc. -- maybe you expected more?
<nerdynick> I personally was not the organizer of that event. So I do not know the contact. but the equipment we where looking to get is the Booth Equipment that is provided to teams as well as a batch of Pressed CD's as we where out
<nerdynick> The CD's would have been great to of at least had but where un able to get those from ShipIt
<nerdynick> So we ended up burning a few of our own. As doing a mini Edubuntu setup in a lab to at least let people experment and burn there own
<czajkowski> nerdynick: was this for Karmic ?
<nerdynick> Feisty & 1 other release
<nerdynick> We attended the conf twice
<czajkowski> waht conf was this ?
<czajkowski> *what
<JanC> TIE I suppose
<nerdynick> http://tiecolorado.org/site12.aspx
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://tiecolorado.org/site12.aspx
<nerdynick> Notes during planning
<nerdynick> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/TIEColorado
<czajkowski> nerdynick: so a question, what seperates your LoCO from a LUG ?
<czajkowski> you mention more work with LUGS ?
<huats> nerdynick, Another question : how often do you gather with your team ?
<nerdynick> As the linux community itself in Colorado isn't the greatest in size and is very spreed out. We attempt to work with the local Lug groups in hosting events or at least attend a few of these to work a bringing new users on bord with Ubuntu
<JanC> that's a good strategy IMO
<nerdynick> We end up bringing a lot of our resources and knowledge to the Install Fests to help facilitate new users intrest in Ubuntu.
<czajkowski> thats good to hear
<nerdynick> JanC we figured it would be better to work with them and at least convert people to linux then work against them
<JanC> of course
<czajkowski> I think we are ready to vote. Since we are using Mootbot give a second before weighing in please!
<czajkowski> [vote] re approval of Colarado LoCo
<MootBot> Please vote on:  re approval of Colarado LoCo.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nerdynick> huats we always have a release party and that tends to be our big group gathering and brings people from the west side of the state and the north end to denver/boulder
<MootBot> Private abstention received. 0 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Count is now 0
<huats> ok nerdynick thanks
<czajkowski> 0
<huats> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from huats. 0 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<nerdynick> but tend to meet together at Clue, Blug, NCLug meetups
<itnet7> +0
<czajkowski> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 0 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
<huats> 0 for me
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 0
<itnet7> Sorry, I accidently voted privatley
<czajkowski> nerdynick: we'd like to meet with you guys again and talk to ye about your team and review some stuff with you guys
<czajkowski> jsut at present with you only here and not seeing much other activity we'd just like to chat some more
<nerdynick> Alright, Is there anything you would like us to prep/plan and when/how would you like to do this
<czajkowski> [agreed] follow up with colarado team via email
<MootBot> AGREED received:  follow up with colarado team via email
<JanC> I think we would also like to hear more about the problems with getting support for booths (whether you were expecting too much or something went wrong etc.)
<czajkowski> nerdynick: we'll be in touch shortly ok, and we;re online a lot of the time if you need to ask us anything
<czajkowski> *nods*
<czajkowski> agreed
<czajkowski> [topic] Florida LoCo Team Re approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  Florida LoCo Team Re approval
<cjohnston> o/
<mhall119|work> o/
<MichelleQ> \o
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FloridaTeam/ReapprovalApplication2010
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FloridaTeam/ReapprovalApplication2010
<dantalizing> o/
<crashsystems> is this the part where I say I'm from the florida team?
<itnet7> :-P
<czajkowski> just to state, we will be able to vte on ye guys but are missing 2 team members and itnet7 cannot vote on ye so we are going to review and then vote here and on mailing list
<czajkowski> so who's from florida team
<mhall119|work> me
<cjohnston> me
<MichelleQ> me
<dantalizing> o/
<maxolasersquad> I am
<crashsystems> me
<itnet7> mr
<itnet7> lol
<itnet7> me
<czajkowski> right so dantalizing and itnet7 can ye exlain how ye've done stuff since your first approval and what you've learned nad done ?
<dantalizing> as the esteemed council is aware ... itnet7 is our loco contact
<czajkowski> you've a lot on your wiki page so thanks ++
<dantalizing> so i've been working with cjohnston and MichelleQ to prepare for reapproval
<czajkowski> dantalizing: we're esteemed are we, we have met :)
<dantalizing> cjohnston will be speaking for us
<czajkowski> ok cjohnston you're up
<dantalizing> czajkowski: its been awhile
<cjohnston> uh oh
<dantalizing> and i wasnt including huats
<itnet7> *shudders*
<cjohnston> itnet7: thats not nice!
<itnet7> *shudders* twice
<czajkowski> oi come on foclk focus please :) 1 more team left
<czajkowski> *folks
<czajkowski> damn lag
<cjohnston> We have obviously been involved in quite a few things.. We have members involved in the UCLP, and Ubuntu Classroom online.. Offline we have worked with the Florida Linux Fest and starting a couple of ubuntu hours
<cjohnston> For 9.10 we had a release party with about 60 people, and some really good food.. thanks mhall119|work and MichelleQ !
<mhall119|work> :)
<MichelleQ> :)
<MichelleQ> we're working on planning Ubucon for ALF this year, too.
<cjohnston> We also helped out with Atlanta Linux fest..
<cjohnston> and ^
<czajkowski> anwhat issues if any have ye run into and had to deal with
<cjohnston> dantalizing: I'll let you take that one
<dantalizing> our main issues have revolved aroujnd organization
<dantalizing> we have many active contributors
<dantalizing> and we try to make sure taht everyone can take part in creating a great ubuntu experience in their local areas
<dantalizing> while still coordinating with the team
<dantalizing> we've managed this in a couple of ways
<dantalizing> we try to encourage local activity and, as cjohnston mentioned re: 9.10 release party, we try to bring everyone together every now and then
<dantalizing> done
<dantalizing> unless you want more
<itnet7> We have developed some really good friendships along the way, despite our state being pretty stretched out
<dantalizing> very true
<MichelleQ> And I must say, the team as a whole has been incredibly supportive of my & mhall119|work's pet project and charity.
<itnet7> Oh, and Nali said we Rock! :-)
<czajkowski> I think we are ready to vote. Since we are using Mootbot give a second before weighing in please!
<mhall119|work> I'd also like to point out that our events have been gaining a good deal of gender and age diversity
<czajkowski> +1
<cjohnston> oops
<huats> +1
<czajkowski> [vote] re approval of florida LoCo
<MootBot> Please vote on:  re approval of florida LoCo.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<huats> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from huats. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<itnet7> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from itnet7. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<JanC> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from JanC. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
<czajkowski> ok we shall take the rest of the vote to the mailing list and get back to you guys as soon as we can
<czajkowski> thanks
<dantalizing> thank you all
<cjohnston> thank you
<mhall119|work> thank you
<czajkowski> is there anyone here from the Indiana LoCo team ?
<schultmc> yes - SimonAnibal and I are here for Indiana
<maxolasersquad> thanks
<czajkowski> ok we shall start your re appvoal but we may take it to our mailing list
<schultmc> ok
<czajkowski> [topic] Indiana LoCO re approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  Indiana LoCO re approval
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IndianaTeam/ReapprovalApplication2010
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IndianaTeam/ReapprovalApplication2010
<SimonAnibal> Hello!
<czajkowski> SimonAnibal: schultmc welcome
<czajkowski> SimonAnibal: schultmc can ye tell us about your team please
<czajkowski> how you organise evnets?
<czajkowski> *evnets?
<czajkowski> *events
 * czajkowski wallops her internet connection
<schultmc> events are typically organized via the mailing list or forums
<schultmc> we have some members who prefer forums and some who prefer email so we try to encompass both media to reach the broadest audience
<czajkowski> thats a good idea
<czajkowski> you don't have a website, is there a reason for this ?
<schultmc> not really, other than not having time to properly maintain a website in addition to the wiki
<itnet7> Have you participated in any events recently?
<schultmc> our most recent event was the Karmic release party
<schultmc> we're also working with the local LUGs to plan an Indiana LinuxFest but that hasn't yet occurred
<schultmc> due to geography, a lot of our non-release party potential events are centered around the various population centers where there are LUGs
<JanC> do you do anything outside the release parties?
<czajkowski> what problems if any have you encourtered and how have you delt with them ?
<schultmc> JanC: we do support and troubleshooting via our mailing list and forums and are discussing holding events such as bug fixes and training sessions
<schultmc> czajkowski: the main problem we've run into recently is lack of feedback from team members
<schultmc> the team leadership often has to make executive decisions since the members aren't saying yea or nay for a given idea
<czajkowski> schultmc: yes I can understand that, it can be very frustrating
<czajkowski> schultmc: so you have a team leadership, how does that work ?
<schultmc> SimonAnibal and I independently came up with the idea to start the team and jointly handle leadership
<schultmc> we've tried to involve other team members in leading the team but there seems to be a reluctance to actually have others wear a leadership hat
<vadimkansk> czajkowski, I'm looking at your discussion and i have no words to say! How that could be?! After an year of being registered on LaunchPad our team invited more than 100 people! We provided 5 events with regional meaning on our own initiative (and our region is NOT as small as German). And what do I see here? You talking about BALOONS, that not have been sent to the event.
<vadimkansk> Don't you think, that at the moment you discouraged young initiative people from Syberia from doing something and dealing with you, foreign mature brotherhood
<JanC> vadimkansk: can we discuss this later? (Indiana locoteam is up now)
<JanC> schultmc: leaderschip => responsibility
<czajkowski> schultmc: ys it can be hard, do you have IRC meetings, I've found people very helpful there to ake on roles,
<czajkowski> even roles such as loco team reports to share out the responsibilty of stuff within the team
<schultmc> czajkowski: yes, we have monthly irc meetings and fortunately one of our members has been leading them recently when SimonAnibal or I have been unable to attend
<czajkowski> thats great so there are others who are willing to step up, this is good to hear
<czajkowski> schultmc: is there anything that we the LoCo council can help with
<schultmc> we welcome any suggestions that may lead to more activity from our members
<czajkowski> schultmc: ok, well I can pop in and maybe help with a Q&A session and give some ideas, if that would help I can pp in at an IRC meeting or whenever you think would work best.
<schultmc> that'd be helpful
<vadimkansk> Ð Ð¿Ð¾ÑÐ¸Ðº. guys sitted in front of their computers till 3 PM to delight in this. Thank you very much. i'm go sleep
<JanC> we can do it and/or we can ask some people from other teams
<schultmc> we could also advertise our meeting some more to get better attendance
<schultmc> it could also be a communication medium preference
<czajkowski> schultmc: that might help and it helps to sometimes get more ideas from different people
<schultmc> email vs. irc vs. forums
<JanC> schultmc: maybe also communicate it to the LUGs ?
<czajkowski> I think we are ready to vote. Since we are using Mootbot give a second before weighing in please!
<schultmc> I'm president of the Central Indiana LUG and SimonAnibal is active in the FortWayne LUG
<czajkowski> [vote] Re approval of Indiana LoCo Team
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Re approval of Indiana LoCo Team.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<schultmc> I know we try and communicate LoCo events to both of those LUGs
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<itnet7> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from itnet7. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<czajkowski> I think you're making a good effort and with a few tweeks could gain more folks helping you about, and I'll log into your channel and help where I can .
<schultmc> thank you
<itnet7> I think you have done a good job schultmc We are here for you if you need us
<czajkowski> huats: JanC ^^
<huats> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from huats. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<czajkowski> ok perhaps JanC has had to head we shall vote on email
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<SimonAnibal> czajkowski, itnet7, huat, Thank you for your time  and consideration.
<czajkowski> right that is our agenda covered
<itnet7> SimonAnibal: no problem, good job!
<czajkowski> does anyone have AOB ?
<schultmc> yes, thank you and thank you in advance for helping expand our events
<SimonAnibal> JanC, too
<czajkowski> just to remind folks you can poke anyone on the LoCo council for help, run ideas by them or if you have any issues.
<czajkowski> [endmeeting]
<JanC> hm, it would be good to put a link to your forum and such on the reapproval page next time
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:46.
<czajkowski> JanC: you came back, sorry
<schultmc> JanC: sorry for the omission
<JanC> it's also not really clear from that page what you did outside the release parties & 1 other event
<nes> JanC: how can we communicate (informally) with you?
<JanC> so +0 from me
<czajkowski> nes: all of the contact details for the council are here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil
<vadimkansk> i can't sleep
<Agafonov> vadimkansk: deep night in siberia, you should!
<JanC> vadimkansk: hello
<JanC> vadimkansk: do you still want to talk to us?
<vadimkansk> JanC, sorry i'm don't speek english
<vadimkansk> JanC, yes
<vadimkansk> JanC, Yes, I want but can not
<JanC> vadimkansk: you wrote several lines in English already (with some errors, but that is okay)
<vadimkansk> JanC, I was indignant attitude on the channel. ie obtained on relnuyu work nobody cares? only would report?
<vadimkansk> *real work
<JanC> vadimkansk: about the novosibirsk team, we just want a little bit more documentation of what is done, if you did a lot, it should be easy to put that on the wiki and come back for approval next month
<vadimkansk> Ð¢.Ðµ. Ð¼Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð´ÑÐµ Ð»ÑÐ´Ð¸ Ð¿ÑÐ°ÐºÑÐ¸ÑÐµÑÐºÐ¸ ÐºÐ°Ð¶Ð´ÑÑ Ð½ÐµÐ´ÐµÐ»Ñ ÑÐ¾Ð±Ð¸ÑÐ°ÑÑÑÑÑ Ð¸ ÐºÐ°Ð¶Ð´ÑÐ¹ Ð¼ÐµÑÑÑ Ð¿ÑÐ¾Ð²Ð¾Ð´ÑÑ Ð¼ÐµÑÐ¾Ð¿ÑÐ¸ÑÑÐ¸Ñ, Ð° ÑÑ Ð¸Ð¼ Ð¿Ð¾ÐºÐ°Ð·ÑÐ²Ð°ÑÑ Ð·Ð°ÑÐµÐ¼ ÑÐ°Ð±Ð¾ÑÐ°ÑÑ, Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶Ð½Ð¾ Ð¾ÑÑÐµÑÑ Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°ÑÑ?
<vadimkansk> Ie young people almost every week and every month sobirayutsya carry out activities, and that they show what work, you can write reports?
<vadimkansk> JanC, Ie young people almost every week and every month are going to have events, and that they show why work, you can write reports?
<czajkowski> vadimkansk: every team does monthly report, it's a small action and shows what each LoCo team does
<JanC> well, not every team does, but it's useful when you want to go for (re-)approval
<vadimkansk> czajkowski, there are reports
<JanC> vadimkansk: so, put links to them on the approval wiki page
<JanC> vadimkansk: we have to decide in a short time, we can't go search for everything ourselves
<vadimkansk> Ð¥Ð¼Ð¼... Well here it is, I spend my time for nothing, you do not understand what I meant to say. you their decision now show why the guys do something, write contango! the main thing!
<JanC> "contango" ?
<vadimkansk> reports
<JanC> reports don't have to be 5 pages long  ;)
<czajkowski> vadimkansk: bullet points showin what the team does in a month
<JanC> vadimkansk: in less than 1 hour of work you could probably have an approval page for next lococouncil meeting to be approved
<vadimkansk> JanC, http://nsk.ubuntu.ru/index.php?page=bolshoj-kalendar
<vadimkansk> JanC, Well, again, wait until 3 nights so that people over here mocked
<vadimkansk> JanC, once something has got to do, a lot of work
<vadimkansk> Ð° Ð½Ñ Ð²Ð°Ñ Ð²ÑÐµÑ Ð²ÑÐµ Ð¾Ð´Ð½Ð¾ Ð³ÑÐ³Ð»Ñ ÑÑÐ°ÑÐ»Ð°ÑÐµ ÑÐ¼ÑÑÐ» Ð½Ðµ Ð¿ÐµÑÐµÐ´Ð°ÐµÑ, Ð¶Ð¸Ð»Ð¸ Ð±ÐµÐ· Ð²Ð°Ñ Ð¸ Ð´Ð°Ð»ÑÑÐµ Ð¿ÑÐ¾Ð¶Ð¸Ð²ÐµÐ¼. ÑÐ»Ð°Ð²Ð° Ð±Ð¾Ð³Ñ Ð¸ Ð±ÐµÐ· Ð²Ð°Ñ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶Ð½Ð¾ Ð¾Ð±Ð¾Ð¹ÑÐ¸ÑÑ. Ð²Ð°ÑÐ¸ÑÐµÑÑ ÑÑÑ. Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ¸ÑÐµ, ÐºÐ°Ðº ÐºÐ»Ð°ÑÑÐ½Ð¾ Ñ Ð²Ð°Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð²ÑÑÑÐ½Ð¸Ðµ Ð² Ð½Ð¾ÑÑ Ð½Ð° Ð²Ð¸ÐºÐ¸ Ð¾Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð½Ð¾. Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶ÐµÑ ÑÐµÐ±ÑÑÐ° Ð¸ ÑÐ¸ÑÐºÐ½ÑÑ ÐµÑÐµ ÑÐ°Ð· Ð¿ÑÐ¸Ð¹ÑÐ¸ Ð½Ð° Ð°Ð¿ÑÑÐ² ÐºÑÐ¾
<vadimkansk> ÐµÐ³Ð¾ Ð·Ð½Ð°ÐµÑ.
<vadimkansk> Ð¶Ð°Ð»Ñ ÑÑÐ¾ Ð´Ð¾ Ð²Ð°Ñ Ð³Ð»Ð°Ð²Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð¼ÑÑÐ»Ñ Ð½Ðµ Ð´Ð¾ÑÐ»Ð°.
<vadimkansk> good night
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-03-17
<hggdh> ~o~
<smoser> \O
<jjohansen> O/
<smoser> hggdh, jjohansen fyi, meeting is 14:00 UTC, one hour.
<jjohansen> yeah, I figured that after no one else showed up
<jjohansen> crazy U.S. dst messes everything up
<hggdh> oh boy, not again :-(
<czajkowski> is there some way we can fix the fridge so it'd stop it getting messed up with the clock changes
<hggdh> I guess the easiest way would be to cancel daylight
 * hggdh would fully support it
 * zul waves his fist at the farmers
<zul> stupid cows
<kirkland> o/
<hggdh> ~0~
<ttx> o/
<jjohansen> \o
<mathiaz>  /o
<ttx> OK, let's get started
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> Today's lucky scribe is: kirkland
<ttx> Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
 * kirkland strts typng lk a crt rprtr
<ttx> * Mathiaz to discuss with cjwatson about ubuntu-server upload team
<mathiaz> ttx: nothing new on this front
<smoser> \O
<zul> yo
<mathiaz> ttx: persia actually offered some help on this topic
<ttx> mathiaz: ok, I'll reschedult it for next week ?
<mathiaz> ttx: yes - hopefully I'll get some time by then
<ttx> [ACTION] mathiaz to discuss with cjwatson about ubuntu-server upload team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to discuss with cjwatson about ubuntu-server upload team
<ttx> * hggdh to remove mysql5.0 and question atlas in the build regression test rig
<ttx> hggdh: ?
<hggdh> mysql 5.0 has been removed, I had not time to search for the owner of atlas (but no big deal).
<ttx> ok
<ttx> * ttx to blog about the beta-1 campaign so far, to trigger new candidates
<ttx> Done at http://fnords.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/server-papercuts-beta1-round-finished/
<ttx> * ttx to bring up status of server doc in an email thread
<ttx> Done on ubuntu-server ML, will talk about status later in the meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Beta1 status review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Beta1 status review
<ttx> First, ISO testing test coverage
<ttx> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<ttx> So the current candidates are expected to be final, unless someone finds a valuable kitten killer
<ttx> Get your ISO testing engines ready
<ttx> You know your targets :)
 * hggdh would like help on testing UEC
<ttx> hggdh: maybe after meeting on #ubuntu-server
<hggdh> roj
<mathiaz> hggdh: I'll give you some help on that front
<ttx> Other questions about Beta1 ISO testing
<ttx> ?
<ttx> Now, remaining Beta1 work items
<ttx> See http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<ttx> server-lucid-ec2-ebsroot (smoser): 2 work items remaining
<ttx> are they expected to be complete by tomorrow or should they be postponed ?
<smoser> postone i guess.
<ttx> smoser: that's about release automation ?
<ttx> that doesn't change the deliverables, right
<smoser> yes for promote-daily is release automation. does not change deliverables.
<ttx> what about ebs-root daily cleaner ?
<smoser> and it actually (should) works just is less efficient than it could be
<ttx> it's a cleanup cronjob ?
<smoser> the cleaner, as it is right now, i'll just manually have to unregister things.
<ttx> ok
<smoser> yeah, the daily builds roll off
<ttx> smoser: ok, please update work items accordingly
<smoser> ok
<ttx> (mark them postponed)
<ttx> server-lucid-uec-testing (mathiaz,kirkland,hggdh): 4 work items left
<kirkland> ttx: i can handle those today/tomorrow
<mathiaz> ttx: the multi-network infra will be postponed to post-beta1 as I'm still debugging the automation
<ttx> mathiaz: ok
<hggdh> I will get help from mathiaz (thank you!) and will get the tests donew
<mathiaz> ttx: and the test rig is currently used for beta1 testing
<ttx> mathiaz: is it possible to run tests manually for multi-networ;k validation ?
<ttx> ok, I'll run those tests on my rig then.
<mathiaz> ttx: the tests can be run automatically - the problem is to *setup* the whole multi-network infrastructure
<mathiaz> ttx: on the hardware available in the test rig
<ttx> mathiaz: ack.
<ttx> server-lucid-apt-mirror-ec2 (ttx): 1 work item remaining
<ttx> That one is mostly an IS spec, now that they confirmed no change in images will be needed
<ttx> They are still testing their new infrastructure, so that should be deferred
<ttx> server-lucid-bug-zapping (kirkland): one work item remaining
<kirkland> ttx: yup, will announce eucalyptus/euca2ools for next week
<ttx> kirkland: ok.
<ttx> server-lucid-puppet-uec-ec2-integration (mathiaz): 4 work items remaining -- is it just some leftover of the -> beta2 retargeting or do you still plan to work on those by tomorrow ?
<mathiaz> ttx: planning to work on those today and tomorrow
<ttx> not 4, but 9, sorry :)
<mathiaz> ttx: it mostly is about setting up an infrastrucutre, playing with it and documenting it
<ttx> mathiaz: so only the testsuite fixes have been postponed, right ?
<mathiaz> ttx: yes - I've retargeted the whole BP to beta2
<mathiaz> ttx: which moved away the bugs from beta1
<ttx> that makes linked bugs appear to beta2
<ttx> yes
<mathiaz> ttx: (and improved the beta1 burned down chart :))
<ttx> We also have qa-lucid-cloud-test (smoser): 2 work items left
<smoser> those are definitely POSTPONE. i will update.
<ttx> Not ours, but...
<ttx> ok
<ttx> Sounds all good to me
<ttx> Comments/questions ?
<zul> i still like turtles
<mathiaz> zul: are you testing the latest beta1 candidates?
<zul> mathiaz: yep
<mathiaz> zul: great - I won't test them as I plan to do the puppet tests instead
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<ttx> hggdh: hello
<ttx> team: hggdh will take up the second Monday slot for Daily bugtriage, so give him a hug :)
<zul> yay!
<ttx> That should help zul in cleaning up the list after friday/sat/sun :)
<hggdh> heh
 * kirkland high fives hggdh 
<ttx> hggdh: any news to report ?
<hggdh> not much for today. Life is good.
<hggdh> Tests have been expanded for ISO
<hggdh> so I would like feedback; also, feedback on which tests should be required is appreciated
<ttx> hggdh: Looks like we should have EBS-root specific entries in the ISo tracker for beta2
<hggdh> note that the SAMBA test *requires* a login to the system to work. No remote ssh via preseed, please
<ttx> hggdh: currently only the 'instance' root store AMIs are exposed
<hggdh> ttx: er. Begging pardon, what is EBS-root, and the rest?
<ttx> hggdh: we now produce two types of deliverables on EC2
<ttx> But http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all only mentions one type
<ttx> see http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/lucid/20100317/ for all deliverables
<ttx> You have "ebs" and "instance" types in that last list
<ttx> the ISO tracker only has entries for the "instance" types
<hggdh> k, will look at it
<smoser> hggdh, ebs root (elastic block store) give an instance that can be powered off, and powered back on without losing data. instance-store data is lost on root partition on poweroff
<ttx> hggdh: I think ara has the keys to modify that
<smoser> ebs root is a new deliverable (as of beta1) for ubuntu.
<hggdh> ttx indeed must be done by ara
<ttx> hggdh: anything else ?
<ttx> questions for hggdh ?
<hggdh> no, I am good (and submerged in Things To Do)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<ttx> hggdh: thanks
<ttx> jjohansen: hi
<jjohansen> hi
<jjohansen> so we have a kernel that boots for Bug #527208
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 527208 in linux-ec2 "ec2 instance fails boot, no console output on c1.xlarge" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527208
<jjohansen> I still have config revisions todo, but we should have a general test kernel later today
<ttx> jjohansen: that's great news !
<ttx> jjohansen: thanks for your work on this.
<ttx> I see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu-kvm/+bug/531823 is also fixed, or at least workarounded
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 531823 in linux "[lucid] All linux guests oops in kvm_leave_lazy_mmu during boot (9.04, 9.10, 10.04)" [High,Fix released]
<jjohansen> ah, yeah smb gets all the credit there
<ttx> jjohansen: thank him for us -- that one was deadly annoying for at least my testing :)
<jjohansen> will do
<ttx> jjohansen: anything else ?
<jjohansen> I can't think of anything else atm
<ttx> team: questions for jjohansen ? any funny bug to throw at our kernel friends ?
 * mathiaz randomly picks one of the 2030092 opened bugs against linux
<ttx> ok, moving on then :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Server Papercuts (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Papercuts (ttx)
<ttx> The beta1 round is now finished
<ttx> 10 fixes, 2 postponed and 2 invalid
<ttx> beta2 only has 7 targets right now
<ttx> note that we should fix them before Beta2Freeze
 * zul goes nominate some more today
<ttx> https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/lucid-beta-2
<ttx> you can already book your favorite ones
<ttx> remember those are easy to fix bugs and a great way to get involved in Ubutu development
<ttx> since the server team will help in sponsoring your proposed branches
<ttx> Nominations review:
<ttx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=New
<ttx> Hmm, none.
<ttx> Last time I looked there was one
<ttx> anyway :)
<ttx> Please nominate some, the idea was to have between 10 and 14 targets
<ttx> Questions ?
<ttx> [TOPIC] Bugzapping status (kirkland)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugzapping status (kirkland)
<kirkland> ttx: next week will be eucalyptus and euca2ools
<kirkland> ttx: we're going to burn down as many euca bugs as possible
<ttx> last week samba was quite effective, even though it was mostly triaging
<ttx> kirkland: hopefully you will discover new bugs as well :)
<kirkland> ttx: that counts for a lot
<kirkland> ttx: dedicated triage time
<ttx> we went down from >170 to <100 samba bugs, fwiw
<ttx> with the help of the HugDay team
<kirkland> ttx: helps us sift through the data
<ttx> kirkland: do you have bugzapping targets for beta2 ?
<kirkland> ttx: nothing official yet
<ttx> ok
<mathiaz> ttx: mysql for the last week of March
<kirkland> ttx: i think we still need to spend some time on libvirt too
<mathiaz> ttx: just before Beta2 freeze
<kirkland> mathiaz volunteers!  \o/
<ttx> kirkland: yes, that would be a good idea, at least a two-day so that good triage can be done
<ttx> kirkland: I recommend combining with a BugDay, see pedro to organize that.
<ttx> Other questions for kirkland ?
<kirkland> ttx: will do
<ttx> [TOPIC] Server documentation status (ttx, sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server documentation status (ttx, sommer)
<ttx> sommer: around ?
<ttx> So I sent an email last week about the status of the server guide...
<ttx> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/
<ttx> This should be reviewed for blatant errors
<ttx> DocumentationStringFreeze is next week, unfortunately
<ttx> So the sooner the better
<ttx> Fixes can be proposed as ubuntu-doc branches, but I think they accept unformatted patches as well
<ttx> So please spend some of your limited time checking out the current doc, especially where you know things have changed
<ttx> example:  egrep '(vmx|svm)' /proc/cpuinfo --> kvm-ok
<ttx> Questions about that ?
<ttx> Moving on, then :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Server team upload rights (Daviey, mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team upload rights (Daviey, mathiaz)
<ttx> postponed to next week, I assume
<mathiaz> nothing from me
<mathiaz> Daviey: do you have specific questions you'd like to have answers for?
<ttx> Let's move on, we'll see his answer in Open Discussion :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> there aren't any bugs nominated for the previous release
<mathiaz> *releases*
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> ^^ anything worth from bugs fixed last week?
<mathiaz> ttx: zul: on the samba front?
<ttx> Nothing important enough
<ttx> (at least from me)
<mathiaz> kirkland: on the qemu-kvm front?
<zul> nothing from me
<kirkland> mathiaz: nope
<mathiaz> ok - then
<mathiaz> that's all for now
<mathiaz> I'm planning to work on improving the SRU workflow
<mathiaz> zul: I'll shoot an email to sync up with your current practice
<zul> mathiaz: ok
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<ttx> Daviey: you're back ?
<Daviey> \o
<Daviey> Is this regarding the upload priv?
<mathiaz> Daviey: yes
<mathiaz> Daviey: do you have specific questions you'd like to have answers for?
<ttx> Daviey: <mathiaz> Daviey: do you have specific questions you'd like to have answers for?
<Daviey> mathiaz: It seems to be something that should be implemented to be forward facing.  Although it doesn't concern many people, it will.  I should mention that the first team to be given upload privilidges for a package set consisted (and still does) of one person, who is already a MOTU/Core
<ttx> On another subject, UDS-M has been announced. If you want sponsorship to visit lovely Brussels, the deadline is on March 26th.
<mathiaz> Daviey: agreed. It's on my radar
<mathiaz> Daviey: I just need some time to get through it.
<ttx> And procedure is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/Sponsorship
<Daviey> okay, i'm happy to leave it with mathiaz :)
<Daviey> That is me done, thanks :)
<ttx> Anything else, anyone ?
<zul> nyet
<ttx> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<ttx> not in my power to change, so next week, same place, same UTC time.
<Daviey> super.
 * kirkland is happy the meeting was 1 hour later for him
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:53.
<soren> Whuh?
<ttx> soren: Whah ?
<Daviey> yah
<jjohansen> soren: U.S. daylight savings time
<mathiaz> well - the time hasn't changed
<mathiaz> it's still schedule at 14:00 UTC AFAICT
 * soren curses The Week of Infinite $TZ confusion
<ttx> mathiaz: I was wondering where the Canadians fell :)
<Daviey> ttx: hopefully down the gorge :)
<mathiaz> ttx: we've switch hour as well - which pushes back the meeting by an hour
<ttx> mathiaz: so it's not "US DST", but "north american DST" :)
<mathiaz> the meeting is still at 14:00 UTC though
<mathiaz> ttx: yeah - canada follows what the US does
<ttx> mathiaz: lemmings :)
<Daviey> I still think the meetings are on Tues, and have to correct myself.
<cjwatson> hi all
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<lool> Hey
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0317
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0317
<tremolux> hi folks
<ev> hiya
<cjwatson> boo, barry's python snippet is broken :-)
<barry> oh noes
<barry> cjwatson: file a bug <wink>
 * cjwatson fix0rs
 * barry wiki hacks
<cjwatson> james_w,doko,mvo,Keybuk,slangasek: here?
<Keybuk> no :)
<mvo> hi
<doko> yes
 * slangasek moans zombily
<james_w> hi
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Lightning round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning round
<Keybuk> slangasek: BRRAAAAAAAAINS
<cjwatson> >>> print ', '.join(order)
<cjwatson> slangasek, tremolux, mvo, doko, barry, Keybuk, ev, lool, cjwatson, james_w
<barry> cjwatson: dang you're fast
<slangasek> um... beta
<slangasek> (eof)
<tremolux> heh
<tremolux> Lots of work on the OEM side last week.
<tremolux> This week: Continue Software Center bug fixes and triage, other tasks as needed.
<tremolux> (done)
<cjwatson> hah
<mvo> sick for 2 days last week, but better now, software-center work, setup ec2 rnr-server instance, upgrade testing/fixing failures, apt/python-apt merges
<mvo> (done)
<doko> * two new lucid test installations
<doko> * llvm, clang, llvm-gcc-4.2 updates
<doko> * again, some toolchain updates, too many test builds
<doko> * openjdk and python updates in preparation for the release
<doko> (done)
<barry> computer-janitor dbus refactoring complete.  to be reviewed by mvo (followed
<barry> by ffe request for lucid).  python-argparse updated to 1.1 and mir approved.
<barry> fixed update-manager bug 537250.  worked on ratings and reviews server.
<barry> review pycompile patch for 2.7 and 3.2.  pep 3147 work - have simple working
<barry> implementation of __pycache__.  prep for py 2.6.5 to be released tomorrow. not
<barry> blocked.  (done)
<Keybuk> Plymouth
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 537250 in update-manager "update-manager crashed with NameError in get_bool()" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/537250
<Keybuk> --
 * slangasek grins
<cjwatson> but he's not bitter
<ev> trying to get to the bottom of the kde frontend to ubiquity consuming 100% cpu, other ubiquity fixes and bug triage, cd testing, usb-creator fixes, trying to build a test harness for ubiquity in my spare time
<ev> (done)
<lool> Touched a couple of ARM bugs, finished first pass on ports development tools on w.u.c; went to SolutionsLinux; not much Foundations work last week, pulled in other work
<lool> (done)
<cjwatson> done: console-setup -> udev/upstart, dpkg performance backports and security fix and then unbroke dpkg performance, blkid infloop fix, horrible horrible partitioning bug of death, other beta-1 firefighting
<cjwatson> todo: catch up post-beta-1 bugs, mostly this swap/lvm+encryption thing and some grub problems
<cjwatson> --
<james_w> Much Launchpad talk/hacking, some server stuff, some bug fixing, sponsoring. More of the same to come.
<james_w> (RST)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions from last meeting
<cjwatson> there were a couple
<cjwatson> cjwatson to spec out requirements for launchpadlib bug report script
<cjwatson> not done, sorry
<cjwatson> barry to implement script
<cjwatson> obviously blocked
<barry> done. <kidding>
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to spec out requirements for launchpadlib bug report script
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to spec out requirements for launchpadlib bug report script
<cjwatson> [ACTION] barry to implement script
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to implement script
<cjwatson> barry to hand over blueprint for psychic powers
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Outstanding feature freeze exceptions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding feature freeze exceptions
<cjwatson> are there any?
<mvo> python-apt was pending last I checked
<barry> cjwatson: not yet, but c-j is coming
<mvo> ratings&reviews is also still in limbo :(
<cjwatson> ntfs-3g still, I guess, need to find time to look at that
<Keybuk> cjwatson: can I have a feature freeze exception for reverting to using usplash? :p
<cjwatson> mvo: I thought we'd officially deferred it
<cjwatson> Keybuk: *cough* itoldyouso
<barry> cjwatson: well...
<mvo> bug #531518
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 531518 in python-apt "Feature Freeze exception request" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/531518
<barry> cjwatson: we haven't officially *undeferred* it yet either.  hence limbo :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: though, to be entirely fair, we'd have the exact same problems there
<mvo> I know its late but if we get it now it will save us headache on the next lts->lts upgrade
<Keybuk> these aren't plymouth problems, there are trying to do smooth transition into X problems
<cjwatson> I tend to agree on python-apt; re r&r, I thought we had server-side problems that weren't going to be resolved in tim
<cjwatson> e
<barry> cjwatson: we're trying to meet with isd to see if we can get resources to help with that
<mvo> if isd can help us and help us quickly there may be still a chance for it
<mvo> (why can't I write quickly anymore without thinking of rickspencer?)
<cjwatson> same reason I can no longer type the word precede first time
<mvo> heh :)
<slangasek> it always wants to come out 'prekickstart'?
<Keybuk> argh
<cjwatson> mvo,barry: well, it seems a bit ambitious to me, but I know there's pressure for this - can we at least ensure that we don't paint ourselves into a corner wrt client/server compatibility?  IIRC you were working on some kind of versioned interfacec
 * mvo nods
<mvo> we can arrange that
 * barry nods too
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Milestoned bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Milestoned bugs
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21446
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21446
<cjwatson> my head is full of this plymouth bug, as I'm sure Keybuk's is too
<cjwatson> there are a few others for our team still for beta-1, which I'm guessing at this point mostly have to be deferred
<slangasek> mvo: did you have any thoughts on how to resolve bug #527870? (I commented the bug, not sure you saw)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 527870 in update-manager "karmic -> lucid CDROM only upgrade fails" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527870
<mvo> slangasek: I haven't seen that yet and I haven't investigated further, sorry
<cjwatson> bug 479391, bug 506709, bug 518856, bug 518866, bug 515525 - are we going to try to get some upgrade fixes in place for immediately post-beta-1?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 479391 in update-manager "version upgrade via update-manager or do-release-upgrade does not work with proxy authentication" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/479391
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506709 in unattended-upgrades "Should inform user if running during shutdown/reboot process" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506709
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 518856 in update-manager "Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/518856
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 518866 in update-manager "Confirm dialog is confusing and too technical" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/518866
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 515525 in aptitude "aptitude assert failure: *** glibc detected *** aptitude: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x08f9d658 ***" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/515525
<mvo> 479391> is a bit uncertain, I think this should work but needs testing
<slangasek> cjwatson, Keybuk: what's your feeling on bug #539182? if there's going to be a respin anyway, I could shove in either a casper text change or a plymouth change to allow the enter key as a keiy
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 539182 in plymouth "plymouth watch-keystroke doesn't recognize the enter key (Lucid Live CD fails to reboot)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/539182
<slangasek> key
<mvo> 506709> is a plymouth integration bug, help welcome
<Keybuk> slangasek: don't really have an opinion on it
<mvo> 518856, 518866> mostly UI bugs driven by design team/mark
<Keybuk> mvo: does it need anything more than  plymouth message --text=."..." ?
<mvo> Keybuk: probably not
<slangasek> I was just gonna say
<mvo> Keybuk: when I wanted to test this on my HW I had some trouble with plymouth
<mvo> so sorry, its probalbby simple
<cjwatson> let's push those UI bugs to beta-2 then?
<mvo> (to be fair, I tried it ~2 weeks ago, I'm sure its working better now)
<mvo> yes
<cjwatson> doing
<mvo> thanks
<cjwatson> ev: have you got anywhere with bug 540275 yet?  I saw you talking with Riddell about it earlier today
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 540275 in ubiquity "Installing in French breaks the keyboard setup page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540275
<ev> cjwatson: I'm in the process of looking into it
<cjwatson> is it definitely Kubuntu-specific?
<ev> I imagine so, but I'll check now to be sure
<Riddell> I couldn't recreate it in the gtk frontend
<Riddell> and shtylman has made quite a few changes in the KDE page there
<cjwatson> 539182> if we can make Enter work, that would be better I think; "any key" is a simpler message, and the closer we can get to making that be true the better
<cjwatson> I'm less worried about Escape as fewer people are likely to think of that as an "OK, get on with it" keystroke
<ev> indeed, I cannot reproduce it in the gtk frontend either
<mvo> Keybuk: plymouth --text was remarkable simple, that should be fixed now for good
 * barry looks for the "any" key
<slangasek> cjwatson: ack, will have a look after the meeting then
 * mvo crosses fingers
<Keybuk> cjwatson: but "any key" can not be made to work
<Keybuk> some keys are special to plymouth
<Keybuk> I've already seen a bug with someone trying to press Escape there
<slangasek> this is specifically a message that says "press enter to reboot", and enter is a key that *doesn't* work
<cjwatson> Keybuk: as I said ...
<cjwatson> I realise one person did it
<Keybuk> sure
<cjwatson> oh, I hadn't realised that the message specifically said Enter.  Is it hard to make Enter work?  I'm having trouble navigating the code
<cjwatson> it seems to be about half a dozen abstraction layers down from the watch-keystroke command handling
<slangasek> cjwatson: on_enter() just needs the same else block as on_keyboard_input(), I think
<Keybuk> <terminal or X or etc.> <input source> <watch keystroke> no?
<Keybuk> it's not unreasonably abstracted
<cjwatson> ok, let's just make that work then
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Targeted bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Targeted bugs
<cjwatson> the headline number here is growing at an alarming rate
<cjwatson> I think it was 270 or so last wewek
<Keybuk> that's because all the other teams just assign bugs to us and target them instead of debugging/fixing them themselves, right? </bitter>
<Keybuk> :p
<mvo> but true
 * mvo hides
<barry> weird.  why does bug 540091 show up twice?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 540091 in plymouth "libplymouth2<->mountall circular dep prevents upgrade from karmic" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540091
<cjwatson> barry: tasks on multiple packages
<barry> oh
<cjwatson> I don't have much else to say about this - I'll try to get that behaviour spec off to barry before next week so that we can hopefully have a more useful segment here
<cjwatson> the number >=high is more like 120-odd
<cjwatson> which is less intimidating but still plenty
<cjwatson> anything there that anyone wants to discuss in particular?
<cjwatson> I'm going to skip the sponsorship queue this week as people should mostly have been dealing with beta bugs instead ...
<cjwatson> I didn't see any business in activity reports, shout in AOB if there was
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Good news
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good news
<Keybuk> debugging this plymouth problem is hard
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I'm guessing that isn't good news, but IRC lag? :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: right now, I'm not sure I'll ever know why X crashes here :-/
<Keybuk> getting into the live cd in a manner that I can actually debug it is difficult
<james_w> Launchpad will no longer tell you that you cannot upload to lp:ubuntu/* branches when you in fact can, and will soon allow you to edit merge proposals against those branches too.
<james_w> and it also puts the source branch unlinkified on the merge proposal page as well, making it much easier to copy and paste in some browsers
<james_w> or it will when my branch lands
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I have a thought.  What's the numeric representation of that Enter sequence?
<Keybuk> can't remember
<Keybuk> ^ \0x0A I think
<cjwatson> Keybuk: is it possible that it starts with C-\ ?
<Keybuk> oh
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> it does
<Keybuk> C-\ 0x0A
<cjwatson> that would be SIGQUIT then
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> everything on that row starts with that
<cjwatson> ok, so that accounts for the X crash itself, just remains to work out how the console got back to canonical mode
<Keybuk> yeah, sorry
<Keybuk> that's one of those things that I figured out weeks ago but didn't mention
<cjwatson> ah :)
<Keybuk> when in Raw Mode, key sequences include fatal control characters
<Keybuk> 2 is Ctrl+C + key I think
<Keybuk> some do Ctrl+Z
<Keybuk> and since they're on the tty, they kill the foreground process group leader - ie X
<Keybuk> or do I mean Canonical Mode?
<Keybuk> can't remember which way round
<Keybuk> anyway, plymouth resets it after X is up
<Keybuk> at least, that was the bug then
<Keybuk> the bug is that plymouth resets it at all after deactivate
<cjwatson> do we know that it's definitely on 'plymouth deactivate', rather than in ply_terminal_close?
<cjwatson> maybe we should discuss this out-of-meeting
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<cjwatson> do we think that we may need to slip beta-1 due to this bug, at present?
<slangasek> if it affects all use of the desktop CD with the text plugin, that's a pretty wide swath affected
<slangasek> so I think we need to get it fixed for beta-1; whether that means slipping probably depends on the next few hours
<cjwatson> this is unfortunately the day I need to leave early-ish, although I can be semi-around from the phone
<ev> I'm around late tonight if we need help with CD testing
<barry> i can do cd testing as well
<cjwatson> ok, any extra hands on ISO testing will definitely be appreciated at this rate
<cjwatson> thanks, everyone
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:51.
<mvo> thanks
<slangasek> thanks!
<barry> thanks! /me -> lunch
<ev> thanks!
<james_w> thanks
<tremolux> thanks all
 * marjo waves
 * sbeattie waves
 * ara waves
 * bladernr_ waves
 * fader_ waves.
<pedro_> hello folks
<marjo> #startmeeting QA Team Meeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:59. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marjo> hi folks
<marjo> welcome to the meeting!
<marjo> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo> # Bug Day status -- pvillavi
<marjo> # Ubiquity testing -- ara
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU testing - sbeattie
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing - sbeattie
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2010-03-10):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 5 new packages in -proposed (app-install-data-partner, get-iplayer, poppler, python-apt, tzdata) and 6 packages pushed to -updates (ddclient, ec2-init, logcheck, recordmydesktop, tzdata, xorg-server)
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 3 new packages in -proposed (kdepim, python-apt, tzdata) and 2 packages pushed to -updates (cups, tzdata)
<sbeattie> * intrepid: 2 new packages in -proposed (python-apt, tzdata) and 1 package pushed to -updates (tzdata)
<sbeattie> * hardy: 4 new packages in -proposed (libvirt, nfs-utils, python-apt, tzdata) and 2 package pushed to -updates (cupsys, tzdata)
<sbeattie> * dapper: 1 new package in -proposed (langpack-locales) and 1 package pushed to -updates (langpack-locales)
<sbeattie> Thanks to Chris Allen, Kamus, and pedro_ for testing SRUs this week.
<sbeattie> any questions about SRUs?
<Riddell> there are a load of package in unapproved
<Riddell> been there for over a week
<sbeattie> Riddell: you mean waiting to be accepted into -proposed?
<Riddell> yes
<sbeattie> Any idea why?
<Riddell> presumably because whoever it ment to accept them was busy on other things
<Riddell> pitti probably
<pedro_> nudge pitti? ;-)
<pedro_> heh
<sbeattie> Heh, okay. I expect he was busy with someother irrelavent thing. :-)
<marjo> sbeattie: can you please follow up w/ pitti, just to make sure?
<sbeattie> marjo: will do.
<marjo> [ACTION] sbeattie to nudge pitti re: SRU packages waiting to be accepted into -proposed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sbeattie to nudge pitti re: SRU packages waiting to be accepted into -proposed
<marjo> any other questions on SRU?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Bug Day status -- pvillavi
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Day status -- pvillavi
<marjo> aka pedro_
<pedro_> On Wednesday 10 we celebrated a Samba bug day and the next day Thursday 11 we had one based on Ubiquity: In total ~225 bugs were triaged during those days
<pedro_> \o/!
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100310 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100311
<marjo> pedro_ nice!
<sbeattie> pedro_: sweet!
<fader_> Wow, nice!
<pedro_> Thanks a lot to our hug days heroes: yofel, timofey-solomko, monkey-libre, charlie-tca, kamusin and thekorn
<bladernr_> woot
<pedro_> you guys are *amazing*
<pedro_> Tomorrow! we're having a bug day based on Gwibber
<marjo> thx folks! nice job!
<pedro_> so if you like the microblogging scene you're going to love it
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100318
<marjo> how come sometimes mootbot recognizes https, sometimes not?
<pedro_> So either you can to triage or file bugs about the application
<pedro_> anything is more than welcome
 * pedro_ kicks MootBot
<pedro_> if you have some time and want to learn a bit more about bug triage join us, we'll be glad to help you to start
<mathiaz> pedro_: hey - was planning on organizing a bug for MySQL
<mathiaz> pedro_: on Tuesday March 30th
<cr3> mathiaz: mysql has no bugs :)
<pedro_> mathiaz, sure!
<pedro_> mathiaz, i'll add it to the planning page and ping you later for a review of the hug day page
<mathiaz> cr3: hm - bug *day*
<mathiaz> pedro_: thanks!
<pedro_> mathiaz, my pleasure! ;-)
<pedro_> marjo, that's all from here
<marjo> any other questions on bug days?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Ubiquity testing -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubiquity testing -- ara
<ara> Well, that was a topic from last week meeting, but, I would use the opportunity to thank everyone who participate in this testing
<marjo> ara: anything or wait till next week?
<ara> any feedback? things that can be improved in the following weeks?
<fader_> ara: It seemed quite straightforward to me the little bit that I participated, but it may be because it's very similar to normal ISO testing
<ara> fader_, yes, it is more or less the same, but with less testcases :)
<marjo> fader_ that was the plan
<fader_> Then it worked quite well from my perspective :)
<marjo> fader_ thx!
<marjo> [TOPIC] Lucid Beta 1 Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Beta 1 Testing
<charlie-tca__> If we are going to do pairwise on OEM Xubuntu, shouldn't it be added to the iso test tracker, too?
<ara> charlie-tca__, well, the ISO tracker is a tool that the release team use to decide if a set of isos are ready for release
<ara> charlie-tca__, therefore, for a testcase to enter there, it must be approved by the release team
<charlie-tca__> Why are we doing ubiquity testing on a testcase that is never tested, then?
<ara> charlie-tca__, because the test cases were generated automatically
<charlie-tca__> Okay
<ara> charlie-tca__, and because it is a different kind of test, it can raise problems in ubiquity that affect other flavours as well
<marjo> folks: we are testing Lucid Beta 1
<marjo> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<marjo> please help out with some of those ISOs
<marjo> we'd really appreciate it for high quality Beta 1!
<marjo> any new business for today?
 * cr3 raises hand
<marjo> cr3: you have the virtual floor
<cr3> if anyone's interested, we're gathering extensive bootchart information for lots of systems in certification available here: http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/daily-bootcharts/
<marjo> cr3: yes, thanks for sharing that
<cr3> this is meant to be an extension to the work already done by keybuk: http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/
<marjo> folks: any other new business for today?
<cr3> that's it for me, anyone else?
<marjo> the gentleman yields the floor
<fader_> It looks like the boot times are dropping over the past few weeks, nice
<fader_> For the most part, anyway
<cr3> fader_: it might be nice to have a sum of all boot times
<fader_> cr3: It'd be difficult to normalize though :/
<marjo> cr3: or some kind of a trend indicator
<cr3> there are lots of tweaks that can be done, that's for sure
<fader_> Maybe on a per-machine basis... I'm not convinced averaging the time across all machines is useful (but I could be wrong)
<marjo> fader: first pass normalization would be based on system type and/or drive type?
<sbeattie> would be nice to graph rrdbtool style over time.
<cr3> fader_: the point would be to determine whether a particular build has shown any improvements across the board
<sbeattie> on a per-hardware basis.
<fader_> marjo: Yeah, I think per system would be good and then choose a representational set of systems to distill down to
<cr3> sbeattie: we'd have that if rsvg worked on lucid
<fader_> Hehe
<sbeattie> cr3: obviously, just need you to submit a patch. :-)
<marjo> any more new topics?
<marjo> if not, back to Beta1 testing!
<marjo> going once
<marjo> twice
<marjo> meeting adjourned
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:27.
<fader_> Thanks all
<marjo> thx everyone!
<pedro_> thank you!
<sbeattie> thanks!
<highvoltage> howdy
<alkisg> Hello people
<Lns> hi
<mgariepy> hi
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> tonight is also anEC meeting
<highvoltage> we're doing edubuntu-dev votes, since edubuntu-dev is now approved
<highvoltage> but let's start with technical!
<highvoltage> I'll just post some bullets from my side...
<highvoltage> * LiveCD is still without squashfs, I emailed lamont about it but haven't received a reply, I'm not sure whether he's actually around atm
<highvoltage> * GDM background is fixed, missing icons in breathe-theme isnow fixed...
<highvoltage> * LTSP live script works when an image is available
<highvoltage> (I just tested it via sshfs on the livecd)
<highvoltage> * LTSP installer script is in progress, although the current add-in script for ubiquity currently freezes it. (hoping to get that fixed this week)
<highvoltage> that's it from me
<alkisg> Wow, lots of stuff
<alkisg> Nice work highvoltage, thanks! :)
<highvoltage> I wish I could say pleasure but I'm not doing close to enough or even fast enough :(
<highvoltage> Beta is looming and I would've liked us to have more done. I still think we can make it if we can get that squashfs image in
<highvoltage> thanks for the encouragement alkisg :)
<highvoltage> alkisg, Lns, sbalneav, mgariepy: any technical updates from your side?
<alkisg> From my side, fat clients are working fine now with local disks / permissions and everything... some programs don't run with sshfs (e.g. evolution) so I implemented an NFS_HOME lts.conf variable for it
<alkisg> I also made an ltsp-build-client plugin for it (install nfs-kernel-server, add /home to exports etc), not sure if we'd want it upstream...
<highvoltage> alkisg: cool
<highvoltage> alkisg: when the new site is up, I think we should perhaps feature your implementation as an example, if you don't mind
<mgariepy> on my side there is nothing.
<Lns> I don't have anything this week :( been trying to keep up with testing out fatclients / localapps on my side since i'm an LTS follower..I've been making notes though, hopefully they'll be useful sometime soon
<highvoltage> Lns: heh, ok :)
<highvoltage> shall we move on to the EC part?
 * highvoltage highlights stgraber 
<highvoltage> we need a quorum of 4, so we have me, alkisg and stgraber. we need one more
 * Lns reaises his hand if nobody else a bit more involved would want to first
<highvoltage> oh right, we have Lns (sorry)
<Lns> =p
<stgraber> yeah, I'm around
<stgraber> kind of
<highvoltage> and nixternal should be around as well
<highvoltage> well, I happen to be first on the list, my wiki page is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JonathanCarter with my edubuntu-dev application
<highvoltage> I'm a MOTU and have worked with packaging for a while and I'm very familiar with the Edubuntu project, can't think of a reason I shouldn't be edubuntu-dev. Any questions?
 * alkisg thinks highvoltage has done enough packaging work and is one of the most involved persons in edubuntu-land, so nope, no questions at all :)
<Lns> ditto =)
<highvoltage> well, I give myself a +1 :)
<alkisg> +1 too
<stgraber> +1
<dhillon-v10> hi all :)
<highvoltage> hi vish
<highvoltage> I mean, hi dhillon-v10!
<Lns> +1
<highvoltage> yay!
<highvoltage> highvoltage: congratulations me
<Lns> woohoo =)
<highvoltage> ok next is alkisg
<alkisg> Congrats, first edubuntu-dev member!
<highvoltage> hehe
<alkisg> Here's my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlkisGeorgopoulos
<alkisg> I've made a few packages of my own, and I think I'm able to patch/modify existing packages without breaking them... I also have some experience in C/shell, so I think I could help in some edubuntu-related projects
<alkisg> I'm no MOTU, but I'm upstream for LTSP, and since I'm a teacher, I'll be around for a long time... :)
<highvoltage> +1
<Lns> +1
<stgraber> +1
<highvoltage> (especially since I'm sure alkisg will always ask before doing something he's unsure about)
<alkisg> Yup
<alkisg> Thank you guys
 * stgraber notes it's a bit silly because all of us are EC and so are already edubuntu-dev ;)
<sbalneav> here
<sbalneav> sorry, had problems with cheque printing in the acconting system :(
<alkisg> Too many zeroes?
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, probably. so technically when an EC member applies we should just be able to approve them since they're already a member?
<sbalneav> alkisg: No, no cheques printing at all :(
<stgraber> highvoltage: yeah, according to LP, there's currently a total of 7 active members in edubuntu-dev
<alkisg> Bah, I was hoping you'd mail me an 1.000.000$ cheque... :-/
<stgraber> highvoltage: only direct membership is edubuntu-ec but it basically gives us all the membership by default :)
<highvoltage> heh ok sorry for wasting a few minutes :)
<highvoltage> we do have one real application though!
 * alkisg noticed that he had upload rights for some time now...
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10's
<dhillon-v10> :)
<sbalneav> alkisg: If you think I'm mailing *YOU* a million dollar cheque before *I* get one, you got another think coming :) I mean, I like you and all, but c'mon :)
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dhillonv10
<dhillon-v10> thanks highvoltage :) yeah that's the link
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10's application is also a no-brainer to me, his enthusiasm and long packaging history would make him a good edubuntu developer, +1
<sbalneav> Yeah, I beleive I approved him for the bugsquad, no brainer here, +1
<dhillon-v10> thanks again, guys like I have on the wiki, I have screwed up so much that I no I can do a lot to help here :)
<dhillon-v10> * know
<Lns> +1, he's been in the chans for a while and has a good reputation with others
<stgraber> +1 based on the packages I saw on revu and presence in meetings
<sbalneav> Hey, fall down 99 times, get up 100.  Screw-ups are never a problem, only give-ups
 * Lns gives sbalneav the pom-poms
<dhillon-v10> sbalneav: well putt :) that's actually going on my facebook today
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: well that's it, you're now an official edubuntu developer
<dhillon-v10> yay, thanks a ton to everyone :)
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: congratulations and welcome :)
<sbalneav> Lns: Oooh, do I get a mini-skirt and a tight sweater too?
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage: thanks :) you have been a great help
<sbalneav> dhillon-v10: congrats, and wellcome to the asylum :)
<Lns> sbalneav: sure! Just be sure to wear it proudly
<Lns> congrats dhillon-v10 =)
<alkisg> +1, sorry I was afk for a minute
<dhillon-v10> thanks Lns :)
<sbalneav> Lns: I was LTSP's booth babe for years when we used to have a booth at linux world.
<dhillon-v10> alkisg: :) np thanks
<sbalneav> Shakin' what my momma gave me.  My momma's a generous woman.
<dhillon-v10> stgraber: if you don't mind, can you stay after the meeting for like 2 mins.
<Lns> hahaha
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: pleasure!
<highvoltage> any other matters?
<dhillon-v10> ooh me o/
<highvoltage> not that I want to rush things but I'm behind with some work I need to tend to :)
<dhillon-v10> alright this one's regarding idea torrent
 * highvoltage hands the mic to dhillon-v10 
<highvoltage> idea torrent?
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage: thanks :)
<dhillon-v10> yeah, oops that was for stgraber nvm :)
<dhillon-v10> sorry about that
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage: go on with the meeting
<highvoltage> heh, ok. That's rather confusing :)
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage: yeah, sorry I just forgot something
<highvoltage> I think we need to discuss some community ideas, perhaps some days where we have some events again, but let's do that next meeting. would be nice to have some events again that pulls us together
<highvoltage> besides that, if there's nothing else we can dismiss?
<dhillon-v10> thanks for the support everyone :)
<sbalneav> I've been very busy lately, my apologies.  Year end at government agencies is always very hellish.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: yep, that time of the year
<highvoltage> well, thanks everyone! it's always good to have a good turn-out for the meeting, hopefully we'll have some real good news on the technical front for the next meeting!
<highvoltage> let's move over to #edubuntu, I'll post the meeting notes to the list.
<alkisg> Thanks all :)
<Lns> thanks =)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-03-18
<slangasek> ara: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/3833/442, the test case instructions say I should see a pop-up about incomplete language support and I didn't
 * mok0 is here
<mok0> The meeting of the backporters team will be in 55 minutes
<mok0> at 19:00 UTC
<siretart`> mok0: that would be now :-)
<mok0> Yep
<mok0> Should I msg ppl?
<siretart`> good idea!
<mok0> Besides us, only 4 are on IRC atm
<ScottK> Hello
<mok0> Hi ScottK, now we are 3
<ScottK> Let's just vote NCommander will do all the work and end the meeting.
<mok0> Hehe
<mok0> Let's wait a couple of minutes to see if anyone else shows up
<mok0> atlas still compiling over here...
<mok0> OK, these are the things I'd like to discuss:
<mok0> - General review of backports status
<mok0> - Review of backports queues
<mok0> - How to do backports with the new source package format
<mok0> - LP update sometime late in the karmic cycle destroyed many components, f.ex. bzr, and fixes are still not available.
<mok0> - The required "sponsoring" from the archive-admin team destroys my workflow and is demotivating.
<mok0> -- My bzr backport is stuck at bug 533042
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 533042 in hardy-backports "Backport subvertpy_0.6.9-1 from karmic" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/533042
<mok0> ... perhaps too much for 1 meeting :-)
<mok0> Comments?
<siretart`> let's start with the first :-)
<mok0> OK, so the queue is spread over several projects in LP
<mok0> Is there any priority here?
<siretart`> may I ask first who is actually working on the backports queue?
<siretart`> I'm asking because I know that I'm not
<mok0> Well, that's where I started
<mok0> As a new member, I was looking for somewhere to start.
<mok0> Personally, I think the bzr backport is the most important one atm
<mok0> It is quite straightforward, but does require backporting som new packages
<mok0> However, I don't think the workflow of "processing backport requests" is satisfactory
<mok0> It is much too random
<mok0> We need to be quite aggressive trying to keep old distros up to date
<siretart`> I've just read the wiki page, some parts indicate that a PPA will be involved in the future, and further at the bottom, the PPA seems to be already part of the process
<mok0> link?
<siretart`> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
<mok0> Oh, yes, that's a mega-document
<mok0> Too bad jdong is not here
<siretart`> I suspect the reason for having multiple lp projects is that different members review requests for their 'pet' version only
<mok0> ok, yeah I guessed that
<mok0> I think the problem is that nobody has a pet version
<mok0> ;-)
<mok0> Which is why I sent around the email
<mok0> It seems that devs loose interest in a distro once it has been released
<mok0> that is a major problem I think
<mok0> Even hardy is poorly supported.
<siretart`> given 288 open bugs for just hardy-backports only, I think it's fairly obvious that the team currently doesn't meet its goals
<mok0> Indeed
<siretart`> well, hardy seems to be the toughest release, it has most of the reports
<siretart`> intrpid with 143, jaunty with 95, karmic 'only' 57
<mok0> I have a hardy box (virtual) and ran into the problem that it can't fetch LP branches
<siretart`> sorry? what do you mean with that?
<mok0> On my hardy box, I could not do: bzr branch lp:blahblah
<siretart`> ah, the bzr backport. I see
<mok0> I had to get the newest bzr
<mok0> Also ubuntu-dev-tools has lots of bugs, but that doesn't hit many ppl
<siretart`> well, I think a first step could be to stage all necessary packages in the PPA, and then talk to the archive admins to copy from there
<mok0> (because it uses the new launchpadlib)
<mok0> I agree.
<siretart`> but that's a specific problem which can be handled
<siretart`> we were discussing a more general one before
<siretart`> which I don't really see an approach for
<mok0> However, having to be sponsored by the archive admins is annoying
<mok0> It interrupts my workflow, and I tend to forget what I was doing
<siretart`> as said, using a PPA as staging area seems appropriate to me.
<mok0> yeah, perhaps
<siretart`> the archive admins can then batch-process accumulated packages
<mok0> Do we have a central ppa for such things?
<siretart`> perhaps we should issue a call for help in the forums and/or the fridge?
<mok0> Help for..?
<mok0> testing?
<siretart`> according to the documentation, that would be https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-backporters/+archive/ppa
<siretart`> it doesn't look very used, though
<mok0> OK, and so, as members of the team, we can all upload to that I suppose?
<siretart`> AFAIUI yes
<mok0> I'm cool with that... wonder what the archive-admins say.
<mok0> I still think it's a bit of a detour
<siretart`> well, sort-of yes. but I feel that's the easiest way to provide test packages
<mok0> It is double work
<mok0> We could just as well upload directly to the archive
<siretart`> it would be awesome to have a 'backport this' button on launchpad that creates an backport in ones private ppa
<mok0> heh yes
<siretart`> what's the problem with uploading directly to the archive?
<siretart`> I remember that I did that once or twice. but that was ages ago
<mok0> I was told it was preferred not to
<siretart`> it isn't. but in some cases inevitable
<mok0> Apparently the archive-admins have a script
<siretart`> it's mainly the same reason why syncs should be uploaded, although it's technically possible
<siretart`> the archive admin's script is way safer than manually fiddling with the changes file
<mok0> Well, yes, but then the backport archive is not as sensitive
<mok0> we have fewer "customers"
<siretart`> IIRC, the 'script' was created specifically for backporters, because at that time, jdong wasn't a motu yet, but still was proposing backports. going via bugreports and that script was perfectly adequate at that time
<mok0> I see
<mok0> Looking at bug 533042
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 533042 in hardy-backports "Backport subvertpy_0.6.9-1 from karmic" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/533042
<siretart`> as far as I understand your 'complaint' is that you feel the latency caused by the archive admins is too high?
<mok0> you can see that it's stuck
<mok0> yes exactly
<mok0> That one is trivial
<siretart`> ah, I thought you were talking about bzr for hardy
<mok0> this is a dependency, it needs to go in first
<siretart`> do we have a list of all pending packages for hady-backports?
<mok0> build-dep
<siretart`> well, but in that case, using the PPA seems ideal to me
<siretart`> there you can testbuild and stage all related package, and then ask the archive admin to batch process them
<mok0> yeah I suppose
<siretart`> so you wait only one time, not n times for n build-dependencies
<mok0> In that case, I could just point them to the bazaar team's PPA :-)
<siretart`> I think that those packages don't follow the backports package naming policy
<mok0> Probably... but the ones in the ppa wouldn't do that either
<siretart`> moreover, perhaps the bazaar folks could be integrated into the backports process? as in, they get authority to request or even upload to -backports directly ro something?
<siretart`> hm, that's a good point
<siretart`> well, removing the ~ppaN suffix seems straight forward
<mok0> What I was doing was getting the same versions from karmic, lucid... and so on, that they had in their ppa
<mok0> Then I test built them all, and tested that they worked
<mok0> Then I filed bugs
<mok0> Now I am waiting...
<mok0> And I still have to go and check once in a while to see if things went right
<mok0> That is very disruptive to my workflow, since I have other things to do than Ubuntu
<siretart`> you have my sympathy. I'm not sure what's the best way to proceed, though
<mok0> I spent half a day checking all the bzr stuff, but now I have forgotten everything I did ... :-(
<mok0> So it's extra energy needed to go back every time and check again
<mok0> I'd much rather edit the changelog and get it over with
<siretart`> I wonder why the bug you've quoted about talks about subverty only
<siretart`> and does not open task for every package involved in that backport. that would make the actual problem more visibl
<siretart`> e
<mok0> doesn't it say it's a dependency of bzr and other packages will follow?
<mok0> OK, so perhaps we should end the meeting by discussing the issue of the source pacakge format.
<siretart`> ok
<mok0> We are going to have problems backporting from lucid
<siretart`> ah, because of source format 3?
<mok0> Yes
<mok0> Packages wont build
<siretart`> in hardy, yes
<siretart`> I think in later releases, that should do, no?
<mok0> I'm not sure
<mok0> Other packages have problems b/c of debhelper
<mok0> and so, we really ought to backport the latest version of that to the whole line
<siretart`> that seems to me valid candidates for direct uploads, where those changes need to be reverted
<mok0> yes
<mok0> I've done it a few times to packages installed locally here
<mok0> It's not very difficult to change it
<mok0> It's just work
<mok0> We should be able to backport almost everything from lucid to karmic
<mok0> There are not any major transitions I am aware of
<mok0> so, my priorities are hardy and karmic
<siretart`> I may be biased because I'm familiar with debian's backports.org, but I really don't see much problems in direct uplodas
<mok0> neither do I
<siretart`> in backports.org, all uploads are direct
<mok0> I do think users are properly warned when activating backports
<mok0> And furthermore, the number of bugs against backported packages is very low
<siretart`> AFAIR, ubuntu's backports are not have NotAutomatic: yes
<mok0> If there are any at all
<siretart`> which I consider a great feature of backports.org
<mok0> I am not really familiar with it
<siretart`> perhaps we should propose it
<mok0> Sure
<siretart`> it basically prevents packages from being automatically updated to the version in backports
<siretart`> in debian, you'll have to issue 'apt-get install -t lenny-backports $foo' to install a package from bpo
<mok0> That's in apt.conf, right?
<siretart`> no, that's in the Release file on the mirrors
<mok0> I see
<siretart`> compare http://backports.org/backports.org/dists/lenny-backports/Release with http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy-backports/Release
<mok0> aha
<siretart`> however with that turned on, I fear that synaptics will be terribly confused, and so are our users
<mok0> Yeah that may be a problem
<mok0> Unless the gui knows how to deal with it
<mok0> Actually it may, I am not sure
<siretart`> ah, now  I see another problem with using the PPA: it gets only built on i386 and amd64. so our powerpc and arm users are left in the cold with that
<siretart`> which I think is fair for staging packages, but not for 'official' backports
<mok0> That another issue, yes
<siretart`> it seems we're running out of time, 7 minutes left
<mok0> Heh, yes
<siretart`> can we perhaps summarize? we badly lack manpower, our processes seem to complex for the amount of requests
<siretart`> complex in the sense: too much overhead
<mok0> We do lack manpower, and it is a bit disappointing that it wasn't possible to drum up the team
<mok0> I was thinking that perhaps we could arrange a session once a week or so, and take a look at the queues, distribute the work and get going
<mok0> but we need to be more than 2 ppl
<siretart`> perhaps some sort of motu school session or something could help with recruiting?
<mok0> Perhaps
<mok0> That would need a senior member of the team though :-)
<siretart`> indeed
<mok0> ... and perhaps we need to revise the workflow, but that also needs participation of more ppl than 2 in the discussion
<siretart`> I'd need to familarize myself with backports again, I have to admit that I havn't processed a single request since years now
<mok0> Heh
<mok0> I have been doing quite some backporting for my local machines
<siretart`> perhaps we manage to catch jdong or ScottK and ask them for their opinion on the matter
<mok0> Yes
<siretart`> ideally, we can come up on a 'backport triaging and processing howto for backport team members' or something
<mok0> I suppose they will go and read the transscript of the meeting
<mok0> good idea
<siretart`> ok. let's hope they'll read it
<mok0> In principle, jdongs wiki page has most of the information, but it is aimed at both users and developers
<siretart`> yes, that can probably be split
<mok0> I think so
<siretart`> there is really too much information there
<siretart`> do you have some time left to write some minutes of the last hour?
<mok0> Yes, it should be split in documents for 1) users 2) testers 3) developers
<siretart`> oh, that's sounds good
<siretart`> I haven't thought about testers, but they are important as well
<mok0> I guess it's basically users who want to take the trouble of reporting bugs
<mok0> I haven't seen any bug reports from testers thoug
<mok0> h
<siretart`> I think that's more a role description
<siretart`> you cannot really seperate users from testers from developers
<mok0> What did you mean, if I have some time left?
<siretart`> s/left// :-)
<mok0> Well, some ppl just want to know how to activate the archive
<siretart`> that's easy: convert bug to support request :-)
<mok0> A few of them will also want to request backports
<mok0> A few of them are willing to test and report back
<mok0> ... and a handful of devs need to know the howtos :-)
<siretart`> anyway, time's up, I need to see after my wife now :-)
<mok0> OK thanks for showing up siretart`!!
<siretart`> sure thing. thanks for your work on reviving ubuntu backports :-)
<mok0> Thanks :-) See you later!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-03-19
<asac> is it o/ ? or in 1h ?
<ttx> in 1h, slangasek said 1600 UTC
<asac> kk
<asac> time to take a break then ;)
<slangasek> yep - sorry, forgot that Google Calendars don't understand UTC
<apw> heh ...
<apw> they are useless inseed
<nigelb> someone fix that to topic? helps avoid some confusion
<persia> nigelb: You mean add "Google Calendar doesn't understand UTC : please reschedule any meetings that are wrong"?
<nigelb> persia: yeah.  something to that end
<nigelb> persia: or Google Calender doesn't understand UTC.  Please check in UTC time and confirm meeting time"
<persia> jussi01: If you have a moment? ^^
<jussi01> who what when?
<persia> If you could add a hint in the topic that Google Calendar is a little confused about UTC, and people should confirm their meeting times, it may lead to more sanity.
<nigelb> Refer to UTC time in http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
* jussi01 changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Google Calender doesn't understand UTC.  Please check in UTC time and confirm meeting times on the fridge
<jussi01> hows that?
<nigelb> jussi01: thats great :)
<nigelb> I've seen a bunch of people confused this week :)
<persia> jussi01: Thank you very much.
 * pitti waves
 * marjo waves
<Riddell> oh aye, I need to update the Kubuntu status
 * apw looks nonchalant
 * slangasek waves
<pitti> so, slangasek is still 150% involved in pushing out the beta
<pitti> so let's start
<pitti> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is pitti.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> o/
<pitti> first, thanks to everyone helping out with release, bug fixing, testing, etc!
<pitti> [TOPIC] Actions from previous meetings
<MootBot> New Topic:  Actions from previous meetings
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-03-19
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-03-19
<asac> o/
<pitti> review status of branding for Kubuntu, Edubuntu next week
<pitti> stgraber, Riddell ?
<Riddell> we got a bit further with designs from the design team, and some from Kubuntu people
<Riddell> still waiting on that crucial "k" letter
<asac> didnt get an answer on my mozilla cairo ping last friday. failed to send mail as i was gone more than half of the week - will draft that now
<asac> (for my action)
<pitti> asac: thanks, rolling over then
<slangasek> Riddell: how far is "a bit further"?
<pitti> [ACTION] asac to talk to mozilla upstream about the need for system cairo in Ubuntu
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to talk to mozilla upstream about the need for system cairo in Ubuntu
<asac> ack
<slangasek> Riddell: and more importantly, does everyone know in whose court the ball is right now?
<pitti> Riddell: is there something code/packging wise still missing aside from the artwork itself?
<pitti> Riddell: i. e. is it just updating graphics, or do we need new packages, especially wrt. plymouth etc.?
<Riddell> slangasek: they sent us some designs which aren't yet finished, we're still picking from the design choices.  so ball in both courts
<slangasek> Riddell: ok
<Riddell> pitti: new plymouth package I believe, some file changed in kubuntu-default-settings
<pitti> ok, thanks
<pitti> carrying over then
<pitti> [ACTION] review status of branding for Kubuntu, Edubuntu next week
<MootBot> ACTION received:  review status of branding for Kubuntu, Edubuntu next week
<pitti> ScottK, slangasek to review python sync/merge candidates ~Mar 12
<slangasek> pitti: not done yet, carry over
<pitti> [ACTION] ScottK, slangasek to review python sync/merge candidates
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK, slangasek to review python sync/merge candidates
<ScottK> slangasek types faster than I do ...
<pitti> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<pitti> marjo: floor is your's
<pitti> how bad is it? :-)
<marjo> pitti: let's do the good news first
<marjo> * Hardware testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Netbook:
<marjo>    passed:  13 (100%)   failed:   0 (  0%)   untested: 0 (  0%)
<marjo> Laptop:
<marjo>    passed:  32 (97%)   failed:   0 ( 0%)  untested: 1 ( 3%)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Server:
<marjo>    passed:  61 (90%)   failed:   0 ( 0%)  untested: 7 (10%)
<marjo> Desktop:
<marjo>    passed:  13 (100%)   failed:   0 (  0%)   untested: 0 (  0%)
<marjo> pitti: nice huh?
<pitti> sweet!
<pitti> 0 failures?
<pitti> I hope it's not a failure of the tests :)
<marjo> the untested systems are being brought up
<ttx> pitti: we finally fixed all the bugs !
<cjwatson> that's way better than I was expecting, given my bug mailbox
<pitti> let's go have beer
<pitti> I wonder why we have 90 pending uploads in unapproved then, and 130 RC bugs :)
<marjo> pitti: please hold
<fader_> These are the automated tests, remember :)  We've got another round of manual tests planned to run on the beta
<pitti> marjo: j/k
<marjo> fader_ is mr. realistic
<marjo> * Beta 1 Interim Test Report
<marjo> Lucid Beta 1 Interim Test Report
<marjo> 2010-03-19 0920 ET = 1320 UTC
<marjo> == Test Coverage ==
<marjo> ISO image = 100%
<marjo> === Untested test cases ===
<marjo> All mandatory test cases covered.
<marjo> Note: kubuntu i386 wubi install is currently broken (per davmor2 & slangasek)
<marjo> Interim, since final test failure analysis is in progress
<marjo> == Serious Bugs Status ==
<marjo> Sorted by status from New to Fix Released
<marjo> #541829 | Kde wubi crashes on r174
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | New
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu Lucid)                | Undecided | New
<marjo> #541029 | netboot image fails to connect to the network
<marjo> linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu)               | Undecided | New
<marjo> #541399 | netboot image fails to boot.
<marjo> linux-mvl-dove (Ubuntu)                | Undecided | New
<marjo> #541452 | ltsp on ubuntu is crashing with a sync issue stopping the kernel from booting
<marjo> ltsp (Ubuntu)                          | Undecided | New
<marjo> #539710 | OEM Lucid installation - configuring system for a new user - error occurring installing new packages
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | High      | New
<marjo> #275998 | internal mic capture very low volume when routed through pulseaudio
<marjo> Dell Ubuntu Project                    | Undecided | In Progress
<marjo> Linux                                  | Undecided | Invalid
<marjo> PulseAudio                             | Unknown   | Unknown
<marjo> alsa-lib (Ubuntu)                      | Wishlist  | Triaged
<marjo> linux (Ubuntu)                         | Undecided | New
<marjo> pulseaudio (Ubuntu)                    | Undecided | Incomplete
<marjo> alsa-lib (Fedora)                      | Unknown   | Won't Fix
<marjo> pulseaudio (openSUSE)                  | Undecided | Invalid
<marjo> #539878 | nouveau out of sync LVDS (basically card not supported)
<marjo> linux (Ubuntu)                         | Undecided | New
<marjo> #539324 | Setting up swap fails when setting lvm+encryption
<marjo> debian-installer (Ubuntu)              | High      | Confirmed
<marjo> debian-installer (Ubuntu Lucid)        | High      | Confirmed
<marjo> #528678 | kubuntu Lucid ISO test alpha3 64 bits failed
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | Confirmed
<marjo> #409819 | [regression] Built-in mic not working after pulse updates on Karmic.  Intel 82801H (ICH8 Family) sound card.
<marjo> pulseaudio (Ubuntu)                    | Undecided | Confirmed
<marjo> #519541 | Abiword 2.8.1 freezes with document lost when help is clicked or F1 is pressed
<marjo> AbiWord                                | Unknown   | Confirmed
<marjo> abiword (Ubuntu)                       | High      | Triaged
<marjo> abiword (Ubuntu Lucid)                 | High      | Triaged
<marjo> #527401 | grub-installer fails to install on a raid1 array
<marjo> grub2 (Ubuntu)                         | High      | Triaged
<marjo> grub2 (Ubuntu Lucid)                   | High      | Triaged
<marjo> #540938 | oem-config-kde does not log out after setup
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu Lucid)                | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> #540895 | Kubuntu OEM install does not install oem-config
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu Lucid)                | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> #541607 | Lucid: Wubi drops immediately into grub shell on reboot
<marjo> Wubi                                   | Undecided | Fix Committed
<marjo> #540256 | enter kills X when booting Live CD or w/cryptsetup with plymouth text plugin
<marjo> plymouth (Ubuntu)                      | Critical  | Fix Released
<marjo> upstart (Ubuntu)                       | Critical  | Fix Released
<marjo> #541607 | Lucid: Wubi drops immediately into grub shell on reboot
<marjo> Wubi                                   | Undecided | Fix Committed
<marjo> #527623 | Notification of missing language support not shown after installation
<marjo> Ubuntu Translations                    | High      | Triaged
<marjo> language-selector (Ubuntu)             | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> language-selector (Ubuntu Lucid)       | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> #541625 | [lucid] Ubuntu Studio 64bit alternate DVD as of 18 March is missing kernel packages
<marjo> base-installer (Ubuntu)                | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> #540878 | Xubuntu fails to localize the system into Spanish
<marjo> Ubuntu CD Images                       | Medium    | Fix Committed
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Medium    | Fix Committed
<marjo> #539507 | System Freeze/Pause waiting for something
<marjo> xorg (Ubuntu)                          | High      | Incomplete
<marjo> #541647 | Lucid-dvd-amd6.iso: installation via d-i shows Server selection
<marjo> debian-installer (Ubuntu)              | Critical  | Invalid
<asac> hmm. wouldnt it be better to have this long report on a weekly release status page?
<marjo> asac: sure, it's usually not this long
<asac> heh ok
<slangasek> seems about standard length to me. :)
<asac> its wiki format. is that on some wiki page we could paste instaed?
<slangasek> it's not wiki format
<marjo> asac: i can do that in the future
<marjo> if that makes more sense on an IRC meeting
<marjo> slangasek: ready for specs status?
<asac> dont do it just for me ... just thought i could better look at this on a wiki page ;)
<pitti> re (argh, X froze, sorry)
<marjo> asac: thanks for the feedback
<slangasek> marjo: I think so
<marjo> Specs Status
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests
<marjo> All work items completed; beta available
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:qa-lucid-improve-server-testcases
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<marjo> Determine which test cases are required for the ISO tracker: DONE
<marjo> Write a new test case for a non internet connection install: DONE
<marjo> Write a new test case for a Kickseed install: DONE
<marjo> Write a new test case for a repair system install: INPROGRESS
<marjo> (Target completion date: Today, 2010-03-19)
<marjo> Bug:530380: checkbox writes to .cache/checkbox/submission before submission completes
<marjo> Status: Will submit merge request today
<slangasek> marjo: (another optimization would be to not list both 'ubuntu' and 'ubuntu lucid' tasks, they're always the same thing whenever they're relevant)
<marjo> slangasek: ack
<marjo> slangasek: that's all from QA team
<pitti> any questions for QA?
<pitti> marjo: thanks
<pitti> [TOPIC] Server
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server
<pitti> ttx: hello
<marjo> I want to thank everyone who helped with ISO testing!
<ttx> pitti: hi!
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> ttx: how did the beta-1 testing look server-wise?
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> very-recently updated status ^
<ttx> pitti: quite good
<ttx> The only big issues are those that affect more than server, like RAID1 / LVM+encryption
<pitti> I saw that one in many iso test cases indeed
<ttx> The rest was quite ok.
<ttx> Beta1 postmortem:
<pitti> is that on your team's radar? or do we need to find a home for it?
<ttx> pitti: it's on Foundations radar already
<cjwatson> yes
<ttx> We had quite a few specs overflowing:
<ttx>  server-lucid-uec-testing -- 15% spillover -- Test rig handover to QA and multi-network test automation not completed
<ttx>  server-lucid-ec2-ebsroot -- 16% spillover -- Some release automation work still in progress
<ttx>  server-lucid-apt-mirror-ec2 -- 33% spillover -- Blocked on IS delivery, only validation step remaining
<ttx>  server-lucid-eucalyptus-merging-and-packaging -- 43% spillover -- Unable to solve upgrade issues in time for beta1, on site at Eucalyptus next week
<ttx>  server-lucid-puppet-uec-ec2-integration -- 45% spillover -- Most of the investigation done, documentation left
<ttx> for that last one, % spillover does not really reflect how little work is left to be done.
<ttx> On the beta2 side, we have quite a few beta2 targets
<ttx> See the report for details on targeted bugs
<ttx> i'll do a pass next week to identify some potentially overlooked targets
<pitti> that bug list looks fairly reasonable for a three week period
<ttx> pitti: yes, that's why I'll do a new pass on the bugs to try to find the hidden gem
<ttx> Bugs affecting server, in other teams:
<pitti> ttx: do you think the remaining bits of the specs fit into the next three weeks, or will you have to drop some bits?
<pitti> 76 WIs seems quite much
<ttx> pitti: all spillover has been retargeted to beta2, we might have to drop one spec: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-id-mgmt-reference-env
<pitti> ttx: that one is not even on http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-ubuntu-10.04-beta-2.html
<ttx> Also please note that ~25 of those are linked testsuite bugs on server-lucid-puppet-uec-ec2-integration
<pitti> ah, ok
<pitti> ttx: well, as long as you think that it's under control, that's fine :)
<ttx> which are not "necessary to fix" :)
<pitti> it seems quite a lot at first sight
<ttx> it's mathiaz's fault. He creates and links small bugs :P
<ttx> Bugs affecting server, in other teams:
<ttx> bug 531494: upstart does not run cloud-init job (Foundations)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 531494 in upstart "cloud-init job sometimes not running in cloud images without ramdisk" [Critical,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/531494
<ttx> apparently there is a mismatch between what smoser provided and what keybuk is expecting, trying to solve it right now
<jiboumans> pitti: it may seem a lot, but we're quite confident in our velocity. Also, we have some slack in the specs as ttx mentioned
<ttx> since we need an assignee on that one :)
<ttx> bug 527208: EC2 kernel fails to boot in c1.xlarge (Kernel)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 527208 in linux-ec2 "ec2 instance fails boot, no console output on c1.xlarge" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527208
<ttx> jjohansen reported nice progress on this one
<ttx> bug 527401: grub-installer fails to install on a raid1 array (Foundations)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 527401 in grub2 "grub-installer fails to install on a raid1 array" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527401
<ttx> a well-known work in progress
<ttx> Other Lucid-targeted bugs:
<ttx> bug 520715: eglibc / puppet issue (Foundations)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 520715 in ruby-defaults "building ruby1.8 with pthread support causes puppet hangs" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/520715
<ttx> we might need to raise priority on this one if it's indeed as blocking as it looks
<ttx> Expected Freeze exceptions requests:
<cjwatson> there's a sync waiting for that
<cjwatson> the ruby bug
<ttx> cjwatson: ok.
<cjwatson> I'll do it as soon as we unfreeze
<ttx> bug 541907: Add scripts to runcmd
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 541907 in cloud-init "cloud-config should support some method for passing scripts" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/541907
<ttx> that one would be nice to have
<ttx> We also might file Ffes for minor features hidden into globally bugfixing updates of php, munin, nut and bacula
<ttx> that's all from us.
<pitti> I recently commented on the bacula one (there's already a bug for it)
<ttx> cjwatson: by "raising priority" I meant targeting to beta2.
<pitti> ttx: thank you
<ttx> cjwatson: but I see it's under control :)
<pitti> any questions to server team?
<pitti> [TOPIC] Mobile
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile
<asac> hi
<pitti> asac: o/
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<asac> so beta went quite well --- assuming that the x server crash we had is really the one that was fixed in last round
<asac> unfortunately we couldnt verify because our QA had scheduled holiday today
<asac> its bug 540477
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 540477 in xorg-server "X restarted, but no .crash file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540477
<asac> which is probably dupe of bug 540256
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 540256 in upstart "enter kills X when booting Live CD or w/cryptsetup with plymouth text plugin" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540256
<asac> more on RC bugs
<asac> we have quite a few fixes staged as you can see in report for after beta-1
<asac> i decided to drop two bugs from RC list this week:
<asac> bug 514253: qt4-x11 "[arm] needs porting to thumb2"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 514253 in qt4-x11 "[arm] needs porting to thumb2" [High,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/514253
<asac> seems that our -marm approach is good enough for the rest of issues left
<asac> bug 457878: imx51 on board ethernet plug/unplug events not detected
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457878 in linux-fsl-imx51 "imx51 on board ethernet plug/unplug events not detected" [Medium,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457878
<asac> i know our kernel peers are working on that, but i think we can live if this is still broken
<asac> so if they get a fix i would still get that in
<pitti> asac: which means you'd need to manually click NM if you plug in a cable, as a workaround?
<asac> right
<cjwatson> asac: yes, almost certainly a dup - Xorg.0.log.old shows it getting SIGQUIT which is the same crash path
<asac> thanks!
<asac> so two bugs i would like to get help for ;)
<pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html has two WIs left, can you please carry them over to beta-2?
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html has two WIs left, can you please carry them over to beta-2?
<asac> bug 528887: maximus "maximus does not give default focus to newly started apps in combination with efl launcher"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 528887 in maximus "maximus does not give default focus to newly started apps in combination with efl launcher" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/528887
<asac> i would think dxteam or desktop team can probably help on that
<asac> bug 528524: pulseaudio "Sound not working in all apps on dove"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 528524 in pulseaudio "Sound not working in all apps on dove" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/528524
<pitti> asac: can you talk to didrocks about 528887?
<asac> basic stuff seems to work in kernel. if someone could ask questions there would be great
<asac> we would certainly give all info on the pulseaudio bug that is needed
<asac> pitti: will do
<pitti> [ACTION] pitti to get people to investigate #528524
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to get people to investigate #528524
<asac> its reprducible on i386 as the -efl launcher is there too ... so yeah
<asac> spec front is still slowly moving
<asac> i moved all items to beta-2 left
<asac> total 8
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-2.html
<asac> only relevant for archive are the webservice ones
<pitti> looks good on that front, reasonable workload and enough time for more bug fixes
<asac> yeah ;)
<asac> unfortunately our team is often out of office due to sprints customers etc.
<asac> but i think its still good workload wise
<pitti> asac: are the other thumb2 ports on track?
<asac> the 3 left one? yes, we are working on them
<pitti> great
<asac> its just 3, so that should be doable
<pitti> any other questions for mobile?
<asac> we will do a mass give back for universe
<asac> this weekend
<pitti> thanks asac!
<asac> thanks!
<pitti> [TOPIC] Kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel
<apw> here
<apw> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the first URL below, including the items called out in the agenda.  Beta-1 activity is summarised at the second URL below all now complete, a few items have been pushed out and appear under Beta-2 as At Risk.  The burndown chart for Beta-1 is at the third URL, and our burndown chart is at the fourth:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20ubuntu-10.04-beta-1
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20ubuntu-10.04-beta-1
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> Of the pushed out Alpha-3 items four have been postponed to M, two low priority items have been further pushed out to Beta-2, and two have patches in testing.  The items pushed out of Beta-1 are either investigative or basically complete and awaiting final test and upload.
<apw> On the items pulled out on the agenda, the ureadahead optimisation work remains to be tested but is a small patch kernel side and does not impact any features.  The configuration review is complete and patches are out for review and expected to hit once the freeze is lifted.  The DRM reporting is now committed and again waits on the freeze lifting.  From the bugs, the EC2 logging bug looks to be a configuration issue and we expect to have a fix fo
<apw> r it shortly, the other two bugs we have fixes commited and await the freeze to lift to upload them.
<apw> None of the uploaded kernels have changed since the last meeting due to the freeze.  The ti-omap kernel has now been approved for FFe and MIR and awaits the freeze lifting to hit the archive.
<apw> <done>
 * pitti caught up
<pitti> apw: workloads for beta-2 and final look very reasonable, great job
<apw> mostly non kernel work too
<pitti> apw: did you hear a lot of feedback about the DRM backport?
<apw> most of it has been positive.  generally less complaints
<pitti> it still seems to cause some troubles, but from my POV it seemed to have gone through quite well?
<slangasek> I fear that most drm bugs are being attributed to plymouth up to this point
<apw> we have one outstanding issue with powersave, which is looking like we have fixed and should come in soon
<slangasek> we'll probably be getting better feedback in the coming weeks
<apw> yeah until plymouth stops being the first barrier its hard to be tottally sure
<slangasek> (hi everybody, welcome to beta1 :)
<pitti> slangasek: yay! congratulations
<slangasek> apw: it has stopped being the first barrier
<pitti> that was a rather complicated birth
<apw> general wisdom is that its not perfect but much better, and we continue to work on fixing issues as we see them
<slangasek> apw: so please adjust any triaging assumptions accordingly :)
<apw> slangasek, :) indeed ... X normally blame us anyhow
<pitti> any questions for kernel?
 * ttx highfives slangasek
<pitti> thanks apw!
<pitti> [TOPIC] desktop
<MootBot> New Topic:  desktop
<pitti> pitti: hello :)
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> as usual, this has the details about weekly progress, spec status, and RC bug status
<pitti> Beta-1 WIs all done, one spillover spec: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-gdmsetup
<pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<pitti> For Beta-2 we mostly have some cleanup WIs left, plus adding some much missed options to gdmsetup (already commited)
<pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-2.html
<pitti> Biggest missing feature/bug is that Gwibber currently stores account passwords in couchdb in cleartext(!), but should use gnome-keyring.
<pitti> We got a lot of bug fixes during this week, but are struggling a bit with the RC ones mentioned here. Martin will direct more attention to them.
<pitti> ->  "here" -> in the report, sorry for the semantic cut&paste error
<pitti> Called out in release team meeting invitation:
<pitti> desktop-lucid-xorg-multitouch: This hit us 1.5 weeks ago through a SABDFL override of FF, etc., and is currently diverting away Bryce.  The really intrusive bits (kernel driver, evdev patch, etc.) are in now, but this still needs better udev rules, test plans, and testing with wacom in particular.
<pitti> given how far it has come, I'm positive that it should work well by beta-2
<pitti> bug 456468 has turned out from "apparently simple" to "almost impossible to solve cleanly"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 456468 in network-manager-applet "upgrade triggers nm-applet "resource not found" ... missing icon "nm-applet-device"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/456468
<pitti> nm-applet picks up new icons during upgrade, tries to load them, and fails because the new GTK icon loader doesn't work with the old libc6 already in memory
<pitti> and we'd need to retroactively fix the old code to make it autorestart
<pitti> best workaround would be to restart it in update-manager; second best is to not do anything about it, it does not break the upgrade itself.
<pitti> we are still pondering what to do about it, but it might take a while
<pitti> We also collected a list of bugs which are not really RC, but which we want to fix for Lucid to be appropriately polished for an LTS release:
<pitti> http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/X/Reports/desktop-bugs/milestone-bugs.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/X/Reports/desktop-bugs/milestone-bugs.html
<pitti> Riddell: would you please do the Kubuntu bits?
<Riddell>  * Beta 1 (about to be) out the door, hugs to all who helped fix the various critical bugs there
<Riddell>  * New logo still being worked on by Canonical Design Team and being pondered over by Kubuntu people
<Riddell>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo (this page needs some updating, no new features expected)
<Riddell>  * Beta testing and some thourough bug triage have increased milestoned bugs marked as kubuntu to 32 http://tinyurl.com/yjybcx9
<Riddell>  * Bugs now need categorised and squishing, only 1 worrying me Bug:448705	"akonadi server doesn't start at login" which is essentially an upstream issue
<Riddell>  * tseliot is working on plymouth to KDM smooth transition support
<Riddell>  * doko fixed Qt on ia64 so build failures there now much reduced
<Riddell> 10.04 documentation is due soon too, nixternal has been cracking the whip on that
<pitti> Riddell: so plymouth and kdm are at least on ceasefire terms now?
<Riddell> pitti: yes for beta plymouth dies before kdm starts, it's ugly but reliable
<ScottK> It's not smooth, but at least it boots.
<pitti> right, that's how it was expected to look likenow
<pitti> any questions about desktop?
<slangasek> when will my firefox fonts stop shimmering :)
<slangasek> (sorry, know that asac already addressed this)
<pitti> ah, you hit a sore point there..
<pitti> slangasek: it's as high on the radar as I can put it; cf. "We got a lot of bug fixes during this week, but are struggling a bit with the RC ones mentioned here. Martin will direct more attention to them."
<pitti> but at least we are in 100% bug fixing mood now
<pitti> (flush unapproved, and you'll get a lot of love :) )
<slangasek> pitti: do you know if ccheney has an OOo upload scheduled anytime soon?  I see a few critical bugs accumulating there, with fixes known
<pitti> I don't know, I'll ask him
<pitti> in particular the arm crash should have a working patch now, too
<pitti> we need to get that out
<pitti> (asked)
<slangasek> no other questions from me
<pitti> we ought to do that by next week, now that the freeze is behind us
<pitti> [TOPIC] DX
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX
<pitti> davidbarth: bonsoir
<davidbarth> hi
<davidbarth> so here is the short report: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<davidbarth> so on the me menu the 2 potential changes tracked from last week are now been postponed to L+1
<slangasek> davidbarth: I've been seeing a bug recently where indicator-sound tells me things are muted when they aren't; is this bug known?
<slangasek> (glad to see the mousewheel issue is tracked, I was going to be filing that one soon :)
<davidbarth> some pending fixes however are also quite invasive, so we' ve discussed filing for a proper FFE with seb128
<davidbarth> slangasek: that one is kind of known
<davidbarth> slangasek: we have an autobuild system that was producing packages with the wrong version number
<davidbarth> slangasek: and afawct it was due to an old version being build (but only in an internal ppa)
<davidbarth> slangasek: the lucid version has had a fix for that for some weeks, and ronoc uploaded a version yesterday with a version number that should prevent this packaging bug from re-appearing
<pitti> the mute bug seems to be random these days, but I still get it in 70% of the cases, too, if you need me to help with debugging
<davidbarth> hope this is the same bug, or else we have another issue
<slangasek> davidbarth: hmm, the mute bug I see is with the lucid package; do you mean that the wrong package is in lucid right now?
<davidbarth> pitti: yeah, if you can reproduce it with lucid packages, we definetly want to know
<slangasek> I'm not using the ppa
<pitti> davidbarth: ok, I'll file one then
<davidbarth> so it' s a regression and we need to fix that
<slangasek> ok
<davidbarth> pitti: yes, please
<pitti> [ACTION] pitti to file bug about sound indicator being muted
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to file bug about sound indicator being muted
<davidbarth> we' re monitoring a couple of lists of bugs triaged with the desktop team
<davidbarth> please assign to canonical-dx-team initially, and we' re then re-dispatching to individuals
<pitti> ack
<davidbarth> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.assignee=canonical-dx-team
<pitti> I guess the "disable twitter input field without configured accounts" should also be there
<davidbarth> the rest is already assigned to particular developers
<davidbarth> well, so this one is the one with the invasive code change
<davidbarth> ie, i' m now monitoring the service, so that required a g_object' ification with signal monitoring
<davidbarth> i agree it should be reviewed as an FFE maybe; we're conducting code reviews for all code that land in trunk already though
<pitti> couldn't it just update its UI when you configure accounts?
<pitti> anyway, let's discuss off-meeting
<davidbarth> we've released a couple of bug fixes also as part of our thursday uploads
<davidbarth> pitti: ok
<pitti> davidbarth: those are likely stuck in unapproved then
<pitti> so let's re-test those next week
<davidbarth> New releases for this week: see DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidWeeklyReleases
<davidbarth> Of note:
<davidbarth> indicator-me-0.2.5-0ubuntu1: bug fixes, hide missing options, show avatar in menu, fixes 525951
<davidbarth> indicator-session-0.2.5-0ubuntu2: properly lock the screen when switching to another session, also respect lockdown settings
<davidbarth> indicator-sound-0.1.3-0ubuntu1: mousewheel support fix (#521046 & #523369)
<davidbarth> libindicator-0.3.6-0ubuntu1: enforces the proper icon size
<davidbarth> yes, some are still in the queue
<davidbarth> while other have already made it to the archive
<slangasek> I'll be flushing the queue after the meeting
<davidbarth> no worries
<davidbarth> a heads up for the icon size thing too
<pitti> just wanted to point out to davidbarth that some of the fixes are not really "in" yet, and thus folks might file a lot of dupes for beta-1 installations
<davidbarth> we' ll have a patch next week to enforce the icon size in the indicator menus too, not only on the panel
<davidbarth> pitti: ok
<slangasek> ok; anything else for DX?
<pitti> any other questions to DX?
<slangasek> (pitti has to take off, so we'll switch chairs now)
<pitti> davidbarth: merci beaucoup
<pitti> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:11.
<davidbarth> pitti: thanks
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:11. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * pitti hands microphone to slangasek
<slangasek> thanks :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<slangasek> cjwatson: hi
<cjwatson> Plymouth was a bit hair-raising in the run-up to beta-1, but I think we're in much better shape now due to some incredibly tedious strace-level debugging (thanks to Keybuk).
<cjwatson> We had a substantial flow of bugs this week from ISO testing.  My general impression is that the bulk of the ones that have ended up milestoned are fairly small, relative to how things usually are ...
<cjwatson> The big ISO testing bugs were: (1) LVM+encryption failure (looks like a race, in progress); (2) Wubi dropped to GRUB shell (fixed); (3) package installation failure in oem-config (unknown); (4) GRUB failures on LVM/RAID (in progress); (5) a collection of tractable-looking Kubuntu bugs
<cjwatson> Spec overflow (all moved to beta-2):
<cjwatson>  * foundations-lucid-supportable-binaries: 100% overflow, but archive-side and shouldn't need (many) uploads
<cjwatson>  * foundations-lucid-release-collaboration-with-debian: 50% overflow, specifically Java - at this point I'm not concerned
<cjwatson>  * foundations-lucid-computer-janitor: 25% overflow, one crash bug awaiting code review
<cjwatson> Beta-2 work items: The only one I'll be at all concerned about not making it is vga16fb handling in Plymouth, which I understand to be in progress.
<cjwatson> Bug 368060 is getting very slowly pushed up the design hill.
<cjwatson> parted 2.x's new use of the BLKRRPART ioctl rather than BLKPG is causing several milestoned bugs.  Planning to unpick and revert this on a devil-you-know basis.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 368060 in ubiquity "Map of Kashmir when selecting the timezone is incorrect" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/368060
<cjwatson> Of bugs milestoned to beta-2, based on a very rough count of which ones are for the Foundations team, we have 30 <= triaged, 5 in progress, and 14 fix committed.
<cjwatson> Other than that, business as usual ...
<cjwatson> --
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> that all aligns with my own understanding of the last couple of days, so no questions :)
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<slangasek> jdstrand: hi
<cjwatson> oh, and thanks for dealing with the knock-on effects of beta-1 running late!
<slangasek> cjwatson: better to get our "exciting" milestone out of the way before release day :)
<slangasek> well, no jdstrand I guess
<slangasek> the one milestoned bug has a merge request on it, which kees reviewed but I don't think understood the implications of since that's not our typical workflow... :)  I've prodded, so I guess that'll move soon
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ScottK: around?
<ScottK> Yes.
<slangasek> hello
<ScottK> Seems like FFe's are getting reviewed.
<ScottK> I didn't see any more Ruby/Ocaml/ghc6 requests, but I'm not sure if we're done.
<slangasek> I hope to help with the FFe backlog tomorrow
<ScottK> Still nervous about Python and 2.6 compatibility, but nothing new.
 * slangasek nods
<stgraber> pitti: sorry, wasn't around. For Edubuntu, I'm still waiting for the new logo to be done by Canonical Design team. Once I have it, we'll update the relevant artwork (usplash, website, maybe ubiquity).
<slangasek> stgraber: have they given you a due date for that new logo?
<ScottK> On a more general note, it looks like Debian will move to boost 1.42 for Squeeze.  I made an executive decision not to care (and updated the notes in the debian cooperation spec)
<ScottK> That's all.
<slangasek> ScottK: yes, I saw - thanks for that
<slangasek> oh, speaking of FFes, a reminder to folks that as process bugs, FFes need to be set to "New" if you expect the release team to know they need looked at
<slangasek> I've caught sight of a couple coming over to us as 'triaged' or 'in progress', and am concerned that we may be overlooking some requests this way
<slangasek> (if the FreezeExceptionProcess page doesn't already mention this, I'll update it to do so)
<slangasek> any other questions for MOTU?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:22.
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<cjwatson> the wiki doesn't appear to say this
<stgraber> slangasek: it was supposed to be something like two weeks ago (at least for some temporary artwork) ... I've been regularly pinging iainfarrell about it ;) We basically needed the "e" and the "d" and then make a new logo out of that
<Keybuk> slangasek: aren't the .04s the release weeks that always go relatively smoothly anyway?
<iainfarrell> stgraber: We're awaiting final sign off on the font
<slangasek> iainfarrell: who are you waiting for sign-off from?
<ScottK> stgraber: Kubuntu didn't get just a "K" yet, so I wonder how long two letters takes ...
<iainfarrell> still don't have it I'm afraid but as soon as I do there will be such a cheer that you'll hear it from there
<Keybuk> stgraber: err, it probably isn't usplash artwork that needs updating ;-)
<iainfarrell> ScottK: They take a long time, type face development is both time consuming and expensive
<iainfarrell> so it's important we get it right
 * slangasek reads Keybuk's comment, finds a piece of wood, and knocks on it hard with his head
<ScottK> iainfarrell: Certainly.
<stgraber> Keybuk: doh, sorry, yeah, plymouth ;)
<iainfarrell> everything is dependant on this so keep checking in and as soon as we have it I'll be contacting the people who came in before freeze
<iainfarrell> and we'll update the guideline pages on the wiki
<iainfarrell> should be early next week at the latest but I've said that before
<iainfarrell> so please bear with us
<ScottK> iainfarrell: Which would be an indication the process was started later than it should have been.
<iainfarrell> ScottK: which is an indication that decisions by those that get to make them have taken longer than they should have
<iainfarrell> we started in good time
<iainfarrell> but have asked for more attention to be paid to certain aspects and this has caused delay
<ScottK> iainfarrell: All that's invisible to the community.
<Keybuk> stgraber: writing plymouth themes is fun
<Keybuk> I have my dancing monkey theme all ready for the next release ;-)
<stgraber> Keybuk: hehe ;)
<Keybuk> of course, I'm rather assuming that it will be "monkey" there, but I'm rooting for the monkey!
<davmor2> Keybuk: I want to see what you'll do for might midge
<davmor2> mighty even
<slangasek> iainfarrell: who are you waiting for sign-off from at this point?
<iainfarrell> slangasek: At the moment we've selected a direction and are awaiting some final amends from the developers which will then be signed off by Mark
<iainfarrell> this won't give us a complete character set
<iainfarrell> but enough for the logos
<iainfarrell> and it'll be an almost complete roman character set
<iainfarrell> once we're happy with those the other faces should come reasonably quickly but Mark is very keen not to rush this work so as I said, as soon as I have updates I'll let you know
<slangasek> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-03-20
<rudi> hello!
<Red_HamsterX> Hi.
<Daker> back
<semioticrobotic> Hi all
<rudi> semiotrobotic :P hello
<rudi> *argh
<rudi> spelt it wrong
<semioticrobotic> i really should have chosen a better nick :)
<Red_HamsterX> rudi, tab-completion. It helps. =P
<semioticrobotic> in this case, better = easier to spell
<rudi> oooh w00t, irssi has tab completion
<rudi> thanks Red_HamsterX
<dutchie> ofc it does
<rudi> :( I didn't know that...
<rudi> but now I do :D
<nisshh> irssi is awesome!
<nisshh> best irc client
<rudi> nisshh: I agree
<rudi> jaminday: w00t :)
 * humphreybc stumbles into room
<rudi> humphreybc: :) welcome welcome welcome
<humphreybc> blah
<humphreybc> i just woke up literally less than a minute ago
<humphreybc> my alarm didn't go off for some reason
<humphreybc> somehow i naturally instinctively knew to get up
<rudi> humphreybc: what dedication!
<humphreybc> who's here?
<nisshh> hey look whos up
 * dutchie is doing 3 things at once
<dutchie> (as usual)
<semioticrobotic> the project's rhythms and your circadian rhythms are merging
<humphreybc> haha
 * rudi raises hand
<humphreybc> godbyk here?
 * nisshh shakes head
<jaminday> humphreybc: welcome - i was just having a whinge about you sleeping in !
<humphreybc> everyone have a geez at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<semioticrobotic> will be late
<titeuf_87> he would get here later
<Red_HamsterX> I'm here, but I'll need to go get groceries in a few minutes.
<humphreybc> that's okay
<Red_HamsterX> (Maybe)
<humphreybc> k jamin could you kick the meeting off and start talking about freezes, i'll be back in a sec (need coffee)
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:12. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jaminday> Alright
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Freezes/Important dates upcoming
<MootBot> New Topic:  Freezes/Important dates upcoming
<jaminday> Well as everyone is aware we are almost at writing freeze
<rudi> yep
<jaminday> and still a bit of work to do
<semioticrobotic> indeed
<jaminday> humphreybc is planning to get a bunch of testers to start going over the manual
<jaminday> and reporting bugs with our new form
 * jaminday is trying to dig out the link
<jaminday> man my internet is super slow for some reason this morning
<nisshh> jaminday: how do we (as writers) know if a bug has been submitted for our chapter?
<jaminday> i think its still asleep as well
<jaminday> hmm good question
<dutchie> bug mail?
<nisshh> where does the form data go?
<jaminday> we are still working on the form (still waiting for my net)
<dutchie> it ends up in a google spreadsheet aiui
<nisshh> ok, and how can we get that spreadsheet?
<nisshh> is it on the net?
<dutchie> somewhere ;)
<nisshh> ok cool
<jaminday> yep hang on a tick
<jaminday> http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dHRrYlR0Q0RMRXRTaXJuR2w0QjFUcXc6MA
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dHRrYlR0Q0RMRXRTaXJuR2w0QjFUcXc6MA
<jaminday> So anyway, our plan is to have about 3-4 people start working through with a fine tooth comb over the next week and a bit
<rudi> hmmm
<jaminday> I will be one of those, and so will humphreybc
<rudi> sounds good
<humphreybc> okkau
<jaminday> and here's humphreybc
<humphreybc> so ya'll know about the plan for omgubuntu readers to test it?
<nisshh> sort of
<rudi> sort of too
<rudi> not clued up on exactly how its gonna work
<jaminday> http://spreadsheets.google.com/a/ubuntu-manual.org/ccc?key=0AiussLy2MfjjdHRrYlR0Q0RMRXRTaXJuR2w0QjFUcXc&hl=en@
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://spreadsheets.google.com/a/ubuntu-manual.org/ccc?key=0AiussLy2MfjjdHRrYlR0Q0RMRXRTaXJuR2w0QjFUcXc&hl=en@
<humphreybc> basically come Monday I'll write up a post on omg asking for testers, direct link will be on the blog post for them to download etc
<jaminday> that's the spreadsheet for the form
<humphreybc> i'll point them to the form
<humphreybc> testing/bug reporting by them will go on for a week (22 - 29th March) and during that time we'll try to fix bugs as they are reported
<semioticrobotic> nice ... i use Google Docs forms for a few projects, and they work quite well
<nisshh> jaminday: is my google apps login the same as my gmail account login?
<humphreybc> on Wednesday next week I'll give the manual to a few upstanding community members to test as well
<humphreybc> nisshh: yup
<semioticrobotic> nisshh: typically, yes, but not always
<jaminday> nisshh: yeah i think so
<nisshh> ok thanks
<jaminday> try it anyway
<rudi> nisshh: I would imagine so
<reventon_> i'm editing chapter 7, when should i have final changes in by
<jaminday> reventon_: the sooner the better
<humphreybc> so on the 29th we'll *close* testing and that gives us two days before the 31st to fix up anything before writing freeze
<humphreybc> the writing freeze is going to be strictly enforced, we're not going to pull a Canonical here and break it
<dutchie> ...low
<jaminday> everyone keep editing your chapters, but as our small team of 'supereditors' (as in superuser, not superman) comes through we will make the final call about what stays and what goes for this release
 * semioticrobotic laughs
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> yup
<rudi> haha nice!
<humphreybc> so that's cool
<reventon_> so the 1st is the writing freeze?
<humphreybc> 31st
<nisshh> that google apps login requires me to have a @ubuntu-manual.org email address
<semioticrobotic> jaminday: gotcha
<reventon_> right
<jaminday> reventon_: yep
<humphreybc> 1st is when we start screenshotting like crazy people
<dutchie> nisshh: ask godbyk-android about that
<nisshh> ok thanks
<humphreybc> righto
<dutchie> I understand Quickshot is nearly ready too?
<humphreybc> so that's that, any questions on the important dates?
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: Quickshot?
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: all clear
<humphreybc> (Red_HamsterX might have gone grocery shopping)
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87 is more current on what's happening with Quickshot's UI stuff than I am, and that's what will need to be worked on over the next week.
<c7p> so i guess after 1st April we won't face the problem of loss of translation, right?
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: do you think it'll be functionally ready by the 1st April?
<Red_HamsterX> Between the two of us, we have most of the process flow working. We just need to couple everything, plug a few holes, and write scripts.
<titeuf_87> quickshot should be almost ready now to be useable to take screenshots
<rudi> awesome
 * humphreybc punches the air
<jaminday> nisshh: you could at least see the form without a google apps login right
<humphreybc> yeah!
<humphreybc> c7p: that's correct
<nisshh> yes, i need a google apps login to view the spreadsheet
<nisshh> not the form
<c7p> nice
<humphreybc> how are we going to package Quickshot?
<humphreybc> can we make some nice debs?
<godbyk> Okay, I'm here.
<humphreybc> hi Kevin
<Red_HamsterX> By tomorrow, we should have a structure to let us start automating the process of launching apps and stuff.
<dutchie> humphreybc: quickly does that
<humphreybc> dutchie: oh fantastic
<dutchie> (sort of the point of quickly really)
<titeuf_87> quickly let us make a ppa for it so installation will be simple
<Red_HamsterX> I can dedicate a server to the project for the rush.
<humphreybc> fantastic
<humphreybc> a PPA sounds like a plan
<jaminday> godbyk: welcome
<Red_HamsterX> (I've got 600GB/month of traffic on it, so it should be fine)
 * semioticrobotic gapes
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX, titeuf_87, just whatever you need to do to get it ready and usable by the 1st April
<Red_HamsterX> (Not my home server, which we're using for testing)
<dutchie> Red_HamsterX: heh, that 10x my xfer allowance
<dutchie> that's*
<rudi> p.s the wiki is looking really slick
<humphreybc> rudi: thanks!
 * rudi thumbs up
<humphreybc> okay so that's cool
 * nisshh agrees with rudi
<humphreybc> oh i should probably change the topic
<nisshh> meh
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Screenshots
<MootBot> New Topic:  Screenshots
<humphreybc> Alright so Quickshot is going good
<Red_HamsterX> Probably, yeah.
<humphreybc> that's awesome
<Red_HamsterX> Yep.
<Red_HamsterX> Not usable yet, but we should be able to make the deadline with something that'll work.
<humphreybc> godbyk, the screenshots folder in the main branch, is this just a placeholder for testing english ones?
<godbyk> The server I'm hosting ubuntu-manual.org on allegedly has unlimited bandwidth.  Guess we could find out. :)
<Red_HamsterX> Well, it's usable, but it's hardcoded usable.
<Red_HamsterX> Bbreak that and we're almost done.
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, I just tossed that in there to test things.
<Red_HamsterX> Break the hardcoding, I mean.
<humphreybc> godbyk cool
<humphreybc> so Red_HamsterX is the plan to store screenshots on your server?
<Red_HamsterX> godbyk, I'll write a proper setup guide/walk you through it when we're ready, then.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: awesome.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm offering it as a backup, in case we hit the deadline and have to move forward with a development server.
<humphreybc> kk neat
<humphreybc> so we're not hosting screenshots in an lp branch anymore?
<godbyk> If we need to point to a different folder or organize the screenshots in another way, I can update the code to do that.
 * dutchie suggests screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org
<Red_HamsterX> The final screenshots will still be in Bazaar, as per ubuntujenkins' plans.
<dutchie> CNAMEd or whatever
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: cool
<Red_HamsterX> The temporary ones will be in a world-readable HTTP location.
<humphreybc> neat
<Red_HamsterX> I'll create 'ubuntu-manual.uguu.ca' this week.
<humphreybc> So from the manual side, we need to make sure we have our list ready to go with good descriptions by the 1st
<Red_HamsterX> Since that's a much cleaner name than what we're using for development now.
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, the list and descriptions are critical.
<humphreybc> okay, I think they're pretty much done
<Red_HamsterX> Working on titeuf_87's idea, I've started designing a system to store all of that on the server and let the client pull it as needed.
 * semioticrobotic nods
<humphreybc> but Jamin and I will be going through and adding more detail to descriptions and cleaning stuff up as we go
<Red_HamsterX> So we can add a last-minute screenshot easily.
<humphreybc> Bryan, can you help Jamin and I do some heavy editing?
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins had a list already, although I don't know how complete it is
<rudi> sounds good
<semioticrobotic> I forget -- what's our filesize limit?
<humphreybc> for the manual?
<semioticrobotic> yeah
<dutchie> as small as possible I think
<nisshh> yep
<humphreybc> dutchie: +1
<semioticrobotic> ok
<humphreybc> just however low we can go
<humphreybc> "how low can you go"
<Red_HamsterX> q85 JPEG looks decent in a PDF.
<humphreybc> so looking at screenshots.log, we have 43 screenshots currently?
<nisshh> looks like it
<humphreybc> I think we're doing PNGs
<godbyk> well, plus the ones that are already in there.
<humphreybc> 1024x768 PNGs right?
<Red_HamsterX> For the distributed PDFs?
<godbyk> 1024x768 PNGs, yeah.
<humphreybc> Yep
<rudi> :)
<Red_HamsterX> Wow. That'll be big.
<humphreybc> Howcome we're using PNGs again?
<Red_HamsterX> I figured it was just PNG for archival.
<Red_HamsterX> And exporting as JPEG.
<godbyk> PNGs are supposed to have a nicer compression algorithm than JPEG for the types of images we have.
<humphreybc> oh right maybe they become JPEGs when it's built?
<godbyk> Solid blocks of color get compressed big-time with PNG.
<Red_HamsterX> Indexed PNGs, yes.
<reventon_> for screenshots, are they all going to be lucid lynx?
<godbyk> With jpeg, you get nasty artifacts.
<humphreybc> reventon_: yup
<reventon_> k just checking
<humphreybc> okay so we're sticking with PNGs?
<Red_HamsterX> I suppose we could batch-index the English screencaps and see what the result looks like.
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: sure
<humphreybc> Quality > size right now
<humphreybc> size is still important
<dutchie> agreed
<godbyk> Hmm.. someone moved the website out from under me.
<humphreybc> but because we don't have to worry about getting this edition on the CD so much, size can wait till next release
<Red_HamsterX> Also agreed.
<humphreybc> godbyk that was Daker
<humphreybc> it's now in lp:ubuntu-manual-website
<humphreybc> he set up a new project for translations
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> also I was talking to Mark last night
<godbyk> Right, but since it's auto-updated on the server, it killed the countdown page and whatnot, too.
<humphreybc> godbyk oh that sucks. Oh well.
<godbyk> remind me to fix it later.
 * godbyk is back on topic now.
<humphreybc> will do
<humphreybc> kk so I was talking to Mark last night
<Red_HamsterX> And now I must be off. titeuf_87, I'll get the dictionary stuff working when I get back, so you'll have functions to play with tomorrow.
<titeuf_87> ok Red_HamsterX, take care
<humphreybc> Basically I said to him we have two options for screenshotting, 1) Wait till very late in the cycle to capture screenshots when we know where the window controls will be for final, or 2) Start screenshotting soon and just guess where they'll be
<humphreybc> I want that guess to be an educated guess
<humphreybc> so I asked him where they'll most likely be for final
<humphreybc> and he said they'll probably stay on the left
<humphreybc> so that's what we're going to do, on the 1st of April we're going to start taking screenshots of Lucid with the buttons on the left
<humphreybc> if they change back to the right for final, well... that sucks
<Daker> humphreybc, that's not me
<humphreybc> Daker: did you not move the website out of main
<humphreybc> ?
<rudi> how long will it take to capture all these screenies? estimated?
<Daker> i didn't remove anything
<jaminday> humphreybc: we could always update screenshots after release if necessary and release a revision
<humphreybc> jaminday: ah yes we could
<jaminday> as a last resort
<humphreybc> or even just replace all the english ones after RC if the buttons move back to the right
<jaminday> yep
<nisshh> but we should not have to, it may well confuse the crap out of new users trying to understand the manual
<humphreybc> at 2000 screenshots as a working target, we would need to capture 68 a day to get all of them done in time for Lucid final
<nisshh> if we release a revision half way through
<rudi> humphreybc: I see, it's quite a process :O
<humphreybc> nisshh: true, but we may have to do that. I think they'll stay on the left, so we should be okay
<humphreybc> rudi: indeed
<godbyk> I think we can safely prioritize based on the languages that have the most translations at that point.
<humphreybc> godbyk: +1
<rudi> agreed
<reventon_> he alluded to them contemplating added new features on the right, so i doubt they'll move them from the left anytime soon
<humphreybc> we'll take the top 20 translations and work down from there
<nisshh> +1 too
<humphreybc> if we get all 20 of those done, we can look at the other 30
<rudi> reventon_: I agree,
<humphreybc> if not, the other 30 get english screenshots
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> so the next two items are about cutting things and filing bugs
<rudi> ah
<humphreybc> the cutting things thing applies to myself, Jamin and Bryan, and we've pretty much already discussed that
<jaminday> yep
 * semioticrobotic nods
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> so basically as we edit the manual anything that is "beyond rescue" we cut
 * rudi nods
<jaminday> is Bryan here?
<humphreybc> yep, semioticrobotic
 * semioticrobotic raises hand
<jaminday> ah hehe sorry
<semioticrobotic> no problem :)
<humphreybc> I would rather have a quality manual with less pages than a crap manual with more pages
<jaminday> i couldn't remember your irc name
<humphreybc> so, in saying that, anything that gets cut or anything that is not there in the first place, we need to add links to the community docs
<jaminday> semioticrobotic: are you happy to help out with that?
<humphreybc> anything we can't cover on our own needs to be linked to the online wiki docs until we get round to covering it for 10.10
<rudi> humphreybc: I concur
<humphreybc> godbyk I wonder if it's worth adding in a bug type "Reference lacking"
<jaminday> semioticrobotic:  it will probably be about 3 chapters each of really ruthless culling
<semioticrobotic> no, I don't mind helping at all
<humphreybc> We want to have references and links and stuff all over the place
<jaminday> some of us may not make it out alive
<nisshh> jaminday: hehe
<godbyk> humphreybc: I could add one for 'hey, this should be in the manual and isn't'
<godbyk> we could use that to collect suggestions for the next edition, too.
<humphreybc> that way we will cover our ass if someone says "OH but you didn't talk about configuring the X server!!111!" and also we'll keep the docs team happy by sending people to their official docs
<reventon_> i hope you'll comment on whatever you're cutting
<humphreybc> godbyk, yeah that sounds good
<semioticrobotic> jaminday: I can be ruthless.  No sweat :)
<thorwil> just to be sure: screenshots will be taken in full-color, non-indexed PNG format!?
<rudi> hmmmm
<humphreybc> although we'll get some pretty outlandish suggestions if the UF thread survey was anything to go by
<jaminday> reventon_: yep we will - most of what is cut will be put in for the next release
<reventon_> ok cool
<jaminday> so it's not that the content isnt important or valuable, just that there won't be enough time to polish it
<humphreybc> thorwil: I think that's the plan, although Red_HamsterX and titeuf_87 are going to look into indexing. I don't know what indexing is in images
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> jaminday, semioticrobotic, instead of actually deleting stuff we should just comment it out
<humphreybc> then at least we have it there for the future to work off as a base
<jaminday> humphreybc: agreed
<dutchie> latex provides the comment environment
<rudi> agreed
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: okay -- actually, that was my next question: Where to put the stuff that's culled?
<thorwil> humphreybc: indexing means building a color table for a single image (or set of images). it's lossy and very bad for gradients
<dutchie> or godbyk could hack something to include it on "debug builds"
<jaminday> semioticrobotic: yeah just leave it in
<humphreybc> thorwil: do we have many gradients in our screenshots though?
<dutchie> g21
<dutchie> bah
<thorwil> humphreybc: yes. all over the place
<jaminday> you can use \begin{comment} and \end{comment} to wrap around it
<humphreybc> thorwil: okay then
<humphreybc> i guess we won't be indexing them :)
<semioticrobotic> jaminday: sounds good to me.  shoot me a message with the chapters you'd like me to tackle
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: you going to be around today?
<jaminday> semioticrobotic: ok - i will prob stick with prologue and chaps 1, 2 and 3.
<thorwil> Red_HamsterX, titeuf_87 please make sure losless PNG screenshots are taken/retained. and if do use indexed png in the manual, make sure there's no additional JPGing
<humphreybc> I was thinking I could start at chapter 9, work backwards, someone else starts at the prologue and works forwards
<godbyk> dutchie: I can.  Remind me later.
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: for another fifteen minutes, yes.  I'll be checking email later tonight (it's early evening in my part of the States)
<jaminday> semioticrobotic: would you prefer middle 3 or end 3?
<jaminday> humphreybc: ah sorry didn't see that
<humphreybc> jaminday: ah that's a good way of doing it
<semioticrobotic> jaminday: end 3, since that's where I'm allocated as ditor
<semioticrobotic> er, editor
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so jamin takes prologue/1 and 2
<jaminday> i can do 3 as well
<humphreybc> kk
<jaminday> humphreybc: you take middle 3?
<humphreybc> jamin does prologue, 1, 2 and 3
<humphreybc> I'll do 4, 5, 6
<humphreybc> Bryan can tackle 7 8 and 9
<semioticrobotic> easy peasy
<jaminday> sounds good
 * nisshh says he will supervise
<jaminday> hehe
<humphreybc> If we can get most of the editing out of the way by Tuesday then that would be awesome
<reventon_> when are guys going to start the superedit
<reventon_> ah
<humphreybc> most of the "heavy" editing
<jaminday> this is not meant to be exclusive, but we figure having a small team doing the superediting will lend itself to consistency etc
<humphreybc> yup
<rudi> agreed
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: I'll do my best to meet that deadline
<reventon_> i just want to make sure i get my edits in before you guys do
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: awesoem
<humphreybc> sweet as
<jaminday> reventon_: yeah no problem
<jaminday> which chapter you doing again?
<reventon_> 7
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: might need a chunk of Tuesday to finish
<humphreybc> okay so that's all good. now, for those of you who aren't doing anything, start reading :)
<reventon_> security
<jaminday> ok
<humphreybc> read and file bugs :P
<semioticrobotic> :)
<humphreybc> probably best to use the form
<jaminday> ill put humphreybc on a leash to give you a chance
<humphreybc> lol
<reventon_> lol
<semioticrobotic> lol
<humphreybc> and when you read, start from the prologue and put your new user shoes on
<humphreybc> so nisshh, dutchie, you guys can start reading :P
<dutchie> will do
 * dutchie puts on his pedant hat
<humphreybc> godbyk have we got a good hard link for the form yet?
<jaminday> also as i was saying earlier, if anyone notices their favourite paragraph they spent hours of writing is suddenly missing from the manual, don't fret
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual.org/bugs ?
<godbyk> humphreybc: not yet.
<godbyk> After I get the site fixed, I'll put the form there.
<jaminday> it will probably reappear for the next release
<humphreybc> godbyk cool, could you get that done in the next couple of hours? :)
<godbyk> Yep.
<humphreybc> I'm going to start drafting the OMG post
<godbyk> As soon as you stop talking so much.  ;-)
<humphreybc> then I'll run it by you guys before I post it
<humphreybc> hahaha
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> okay so that's that... last thing on the agenda
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Website
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website
<jaminday> wow fastest meeting ever
<humphreybc> Daker, you still here
<humphreybc> ?
<nisshh> meh
<humphreybc> jaminday: might be under an hour for once!
 * semioticrobotic cheers
<jaminday> hehe
<nisshh> no, never under an hour
 * godbyk marvels
<humphreybc> alright so basically the website is going pretty good
<nisshh> hehe
 * rudi gasps
<humphreybc> it needs translations at some point
<humphreybc> and also the text needs to be finalized, so i'll do that this week sometime
<dutchie> I can speak to Daker about that at some point too
<humphreybc> I suggested to Daker to have a nice javascript/flash type thing where the main image on the front page fades between about 4 images
<humphreybc> like http://www.kde.org
<godbyk> there some javascript that was used on the do.davebsd.org site (or wherever gnome do's site is) to do just that.
<godbyk> we can snag it.
<humphreybc> for this release, the four images can be the title page and then three pages from the manual to give a "preview"
<humphreybc> godbyk, awesome sounds good
<humphreybc> in the future, each image will be title pages of each different version we release
<humphreybc> ie, Kubuntu Manual, Xubuntu Manual etc etc
<semioticrobotic> neat
<humphreybc> so we'll have a super cool fading animation through our publications
<humphreybc> apart from that, I don't think anything else needs to be changed about the website from the mockups?
<humphreybc> anyone else have any suggestions for stuff to add/remove from the site for this release?
<rudi> sounds awesome
<semioticrobotic> Hate to run, everyone, but I can't be late for a dinner date quickly approaching.
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: Oooo fair enough, we won't hold you back!
<jaminday> no probs, have fun semioticrobotic
<semioticrobotic> nice to meet with you all ... looking forward to the fast-paced coming week
<humphreybc> oh btw
<semioticrobotic> take care
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> see ya!
<humphreybc> also, are we going to translate the credits?
 * semioticrobotic waves
<humphreybc> ie, the titles of people/section headers?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I don't see why not.
<humphreybc> because if we are, they'll have to be confirmed before writing freeze
<godbyk> They should be getting translated with the rest of the manual.
<humphreybc> mmk so this week I have to confirm the titles of each person basically
<godbyk> I am going to pretty up the credits section at some point, though.
<jaminday> I will be Lord Jamin
<humphreybc> we'll do the final credits around RC
<humphreybc> hahaha
<thorwil> humphreybc: if/once all else is through, i could throw in something
<nisshh> i will be overlord nisshh
<jaminday> hehe
<humphreybc> okay so I have a rough idea how the credits would work
<rudi> haha
<humphreybc> I'm thinking a section for the key people, their names and then their roles beside
<rudi> sounds like a good plan
<humphreybc> and then underneath that we have something like Special Thanks where everyone else goes, and then Translators
<humphreybc> either that or keep it similar to how it is now
<humphreybc> with sections for each "area"
<humphreybc> thoughts?
<c7p> sounds good to me
<jaminday> yep that seems fine
<godbyk> I figured we'd have the key people pulled out, if you want, then the authors, then translators, and then anyone else (not sure who else)
<humphreybc> for the Translators section I want as many full names as possible
<nisshh> cool
<humphreybc> godbyk okay
<humphreybc> yu
<humphreybc> and what about people who have done multiple stuff, should they appear in Key People as well as say, Authors?
<dutchie> godbyk: beta testers are in the "anyone else" category
<jaminday> it could get difficult naming too many people
<godbyk> I was toying with the idea of having a colophon that lists the tools used to produce the manual along with the typefaces and the translators who translated that particular version.
<rudi> hmm
<humphreybc> godbyk if it looks pretty and gives credit, I suppose that could work
<humphreybc> I want to make sure that everyone who did anything gets in the credits
<humphreybc> somewhere
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'll play with it a little bit after the meeting and send you some samples. see how it turns out
<humphreybc> obviously we'll have to draw a line
<humphreybc> ie, if you fixed one comma and then buggered off, you might not get in the credits :P
<humphreybc> godbyk sounds good
<humphreybc> but anyone who did work that helped the project deserves recognition
<jaminday> humphreybc: agreed
<humphreybc> cool well I think that's pretty much everything
<humphreybc> questions?
 * godbyk agrees
<rudi> hmmmm
<thorwil> http://www.foopics.com/showfull/b7500ad92d9d14e25695d680636198d3
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.foopics.com/showfull/b7500ad92d9d14e25695d680636198d3
<humphreybc> rudi, what are you up to? are you still writing stuff?
<humphreybc> thorwil: OOo eye candy
<jaminday> thorwil: i like
<dutchie> number 6
<nisshh> how come we need an @ubuntu-manual.org email to access the bug form spreadsheet
 * humphreybc likes 6 too
<c7p> how will you concetrate the full-names of launchpad users,as long as they have a nickname?
<jaminday> i like 6 and 1
<rudi> humphreybc: I'm still writing and editing chapter7 whenever I get the change
<rudi> I managed to update the Users and Groups stuff
<rudi> so be inline with Lucid's GUI interface
<humphreybc> rudi: cool. Leave chapter 7 to Bryan, Jamin and I, and you can start reading stuff and filing bugs when you finish writing
<humphreybc> c7p, no idea
<humphreybc> I guess we'll have to try to contact them and ask for their full name
<jaminday> rudi: finish anything you were working on though if you like
<rudi> humphreybc: Oki, cool :).
<humphreybc> and if not, we'll just have to stick in their nick
<rudi> So, I should just pitch in wherever I can from hereon out?
<jaminday> humphreybc: maybe just send an email to the mailing list, and anyone you hear back from gets their real name in
<humphreybc> k well since the logo mockups are there, I think we should decide on one now
<c7p> humphreybc, tha'ts a good idea
<humphreybc> jaminday: yeah, we'll do a combination of both
<humphreybc> we'll worry about that later
<nisshh> i like number 1
<reventon_> is there a master contact list? like of the writers/editors for each section, along with their emails, irc nicks, etc.?
<jaminday> rudi: yeah, probably best way would be to start reading and filing bugs using the form
<rudi> schweet
<humphreybc> reventon_: not really
<rudi> no prob
<c7p> have you talked about the manual's final title?
<nisshh> yes
<humphreybc> c7p yup we decided that ages ago
 * humphreybc likes # 7 too
<jaminday> reventon_: once we get these credits sorted that will probably be our list
 * humphreybc staring at the logos trying to decide
<jaminday> hehe same
<jaminday> i like 4 and 5 too
<humphreybc> 7 is nicer and more minimilist/modern, but I'm not sure people will make the connection with a book
<nisshh> i like 1, 4 and 5
<humphreybc> to me it could be a couple of colourful buildings, or two servers
<jaminday> sounds like we can safely cut 2 and 3
<humphreybc> but when you have the outline around it like number 6, it's definitely a book
<humphreybc> 1, 2 and 3 are out
<jaminday> 1 is out?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i see the same issues with 7. if the question is 6 or 7, it should be 6
<godbyk> I prefer 6 to 7.
<nisshh> yep, 6
<humphreybc> jaminday: yeah 1 was what thorwil came up with originally
<humphreybc> okay 6 it is
<thorwil> jaminday: 1 is out because humphreybc lives in fear of ninjas and sees a shuriken in it
<humphreybc> thorwil, if you could polish up #6 and then send me it in different sizes, i'll put it up on the wiki/facebook/launchpad etc etc
<nisshh> hehe
<jaminday> haha
<reventon_> really? i think 7 is so much cleaner
<nisshh> ninjaphobia
<c7p> from what i see the log is empty, can anyone tell me what's the manual title?thank you
<humphreybc> reventon_: problem with 7 is that if you didn't see the text beside it, and if you didn't know what it was.... it'd be like what
<humphreybc> c7p: "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04"
<thorwil> humphreybc: ok, will do that
<humphreybc> cheers thorwil, and good work :)
<c7p> :/
<thorwil> you're welcome
<godbyk> thorwil: Perhaps reduce the thickness of the border on 6 a bit.
<humphreybc> thorwil: if you could get that to me today, then i'll do the re-branding in time for the OMG! post
<humphreybc> also, godbyk, can we get some flashy branding on the form?
<humphreybc> godbyk +1
<humphreybc> thorwil: try reducing the border thickness by about 10%
<godbyk> humphreybc: I don't really know. I think they said I put it on our site inside a <frame> or something. I have to look at it again.
<humphreybc> godbyk okay neat
<humphreybc> that means we need to update the site header
<humphreybc> how has Daker actually done the site? HTML/CSS?
<humphreybc> simple as replacing an image?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i'll be logging out soon, so all i could give you in less than 12 hours is what i have right now
<nisshh> i saw some php in there somewhere
<humphreybc> thorwil: send me the SVG and I'll have a play with it
<godbyk> humphreybc: It's in php, html, css, .. Replacing the logo should be easy enough.
 * godbyk is relieved we went over the one hour mark.
<humphreybc> thorwil: if I get lost in the world of Inkscape then no dramas, I'll just wait 12 hours till you send me the different size versions with a smaller border
<thorwil> humphreybc: nah, i prefer to retain control ;)
<jaminday> well i've gotta be off to tidy up the house
<humphreybc> thorwil: haha okay then
<humphreybc> as long as you promise that's the first thing you do when you get up
<jaminday> humphreybc: i'll be around a bit later hopefully
 * nisshh has to get sleep or will turn into a programming zombie
<humphreybc> jaminday: okay that's all good
<jaminday> bye all
<nisshh> cya
<thorwil> humphreybc: sure
<nisshh> i need some sleep cya later
<humphreybc> see ya nisshh, thanks for coming
<nisshh> no probs
<humphreybc> I'm posting the OMG! article to coincide with Monday morning, UK time
<humphreybc> so that means I have a 12 hour advantage :)
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> I wonder if we should put the team logo somewhere in the manual itself
<godbyk> humphreybc: there are some possibilities there.
<humphreybc> where do you think would suit?
<reventon_> maybe you could put in a back page with a faux barcode and the team logo right above that
<humphreybc> title page, bottom left, beside the team name?
<humphreybc> reventon_: lol
<humphreybc> I think that one would look quite nice beside the team name on the title page
<humphreybc> in the corner
<thorwil> good night!
<godbyk> humphreybc: well, I was thinking we could use it as a publisher's colophon, for instance.
<reventon_> i'm getting a 403 error trying to download the manual pdf off the wiki
<godbyk> so if the book were ever printed, the logo would go on the spine and on a bastard title page.
<humphreybc> a bastard title page huh?
<godbyk> reventon_: yeah, the site got pulled out from under the server during the translations merge.
 * humphreybc is going to get the manual printed and bound by the University print shop for himself when it's finished
<godbyk> I'm working on it.
<reventon_> ah, ok no worries
 * godbyk thinks we should upload 'em to lulu.com so anyone can get a printed and bound copy.
<humphreybc> godbyk yep, we can do that
 * humphreybc is actually getting kinda excited to see the final product
<humphreybc> especially all the translations and screenshots, fancy website... it's going to be kickass
<humphreybc> and totally amazing for 4 months
 * humphreybc is expecting a huge amount of love from the community for our project after this
<humphreybc> make
<humphreybc> ops
<humphreybc> that was meant to go in the terminal :P
<reventon_> is there going to be an html version uploaded to the site as well?
<humphreybc> reventon_: probably not for this release
<humphreybc> but it's on the cards for 10.10
<humphreybc> godbyk, could you also fix up the title page for tomorrow so when the OMG! readers see it they don't think what
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> yeah, I'll add it to my list.
<godbyk> lemme make sure I'm not missing anything:
<godbyk> title page, credits, website, ...
<godbyk> what else?
<humphreybc> form?
<humphreybc> I think that's all
<godbyk> oh, yeah, bug form.
<humphreybc> should keep ya busy for the next few hours :P
<godbyk> do I need to do anything re: screenshots?
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:26.
<humphreybc> I don't think so
<humphreybc> okay meeting over, thanks everyone for turning up
<reventon_> i'm off to get some food, probably see you guys in the main chan later
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-03-21
<knome> okay, it's the xubuntu team meeting time
<knome> let's wait a few more minutes to allow people to show up
<knome> i'm following an another meeting at the same time, and i hope somebody else could do chairing.
<knome> volunteers please step up now
<highvoltage> hi knome
<knome> hey highvoltage
<mr_pouit> hey
<highvoltage> howdy mr_pouit and cody-somerville
<knome> hey mr_pouit ! :)
<pleia2> hi all
<cody-somerville> Howdy
 * charlie-tca waves at all
<SiDi> hi there
<Sysi> ohai
<knome> (i'm still waiting for somebody else to step up and chair... ;)
<highvoltage> I would but I'm way to out of sync with Xubuntu to do that currently, another time :)
<highvoltage> I can take notes though?
<highvoltage> is there an agenda?
<cody-somerville> Aye
<cody-somerville> The wiki seems to be timing out though
<mr_pouit> mmh, so shall we start without? ;]
<cody-somerville> Sounds good to me.
<charlie-tca> sure
<knome> yup. that's fine
<knome> i have the page open anyway
<knome> ;]
<mr_pouit> ah ok ^^
<knome> Agenda:
<knome> Who
<charlie-tca> first item on the agenda is: Continue working with the new Governance structure
<knome> yup.
<knome> second:  New Xubuntu branding
<knome> then:  Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<charlie-tca> yup
<knome> but i think most of the time will go into the governance stuff
<mr_pouit> mmh, so we start with the 'easy' topics ;>
<knome> yup! ;)
<mr_pouit> okay, let's start with the artwork
<knome> (cody-somerville, do you have a clear picture of the edubuntu approach in you mind?)
<knome> mr_pouit, shall you use mootbot?
<mr_pouit> from what I remember, we're stuck waiting for canonical art team?
<mr_pouit> knome: mmh, sure
<knome> yes, i'm waiting for vector stuff from iain farrell
<knome> the new website mockup is pretty much ready
<charlie-tca> but we need a countdown screen in about two weeks now
<knome> LINK: http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/
<mr_pouit> [TOPIC] lucid artwork
<knome> mr_pouit, #startmeeting
<cody-somerville> :)
<mr_pouit> bah
<mr_pouit> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:15. The chair is mr_pouit.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> last I heard everyone "should" have the vectors by the end of this month
<mr_pouit> [TOPIC] lucid artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  lucid artwork
<cody-somerville> [LINK] http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/
<knome> what comes about the countdown screens, we're also pending on the vector stuff
<mr_pouit> mmh, and still no eta from iain?
<mr_pouit> that's annoying :(
<knome> no, nothing we could rely on :P
<mr_pouit> because we don't even have a 'decided' logo, so the plymouth, gdm and panel themes use different ones
<knome> that's true
<knome> i don't have a collage of all the proposed logos for this meeting, but the on in the new brand wikipage is pretty much way the best
<cody-somerville> Design team was sprinting this past week
<charlie-tca> I thought we were going to use the one in plymouth
<cody-somerville> I'm sure things will pick up once they get back in the office on Monday.
<knome> i'm reluctant to work on it any further until i see how it works with the new final font/vector
<knome> cody-somerville, i so hope that.
<knome> anyway, there is not much else about artwork
<knome> [ACTION] Wait for vector stuff from Iain.
<mr_pouit> (really, their schedule sucked completely: releasing new artwork the day before the artwork freeze is plainly stupid, derivatives can't catch up...)
<knome> mr_pouit, could you add that act? :P
<highvoltage> mr_pouit: *nod*
<mr_pouit> [ACTION] Wait for vector stuff from Iain.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Wait for vector stuff from Iain.
<mr_pouit> knome: ;)
<knome> mr_pouit, also; Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.
<mr_pouit> [ACTION] Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.
<mr_pouit> right, it's also a mess in my mailbox because of that :P
<mr_pouit> anything on this topic?
<knome> hmm
<mr_pouit> will this create lots of issues?
<knome> wait a sec
<knome> will what create?
<mr_pouit> (screenshots to remake, or else?)
<knome> i'll take care of those, if we get in problems ;)
<mr_pouit> okay, let's wait then :P
<knome> one more item:
<charlie-tca> There has been some talk on Ubuntu+1 about seeing the new Xubuntu theme, too
<knome> what about the wallpaper? do we need a new one?
<charlie-tca> People are waiting to see what we do this time
<pleia2> and questions about the button placement
<knome> okay, we need a new wallpaper apparently...
<knome> buttons will stat as they are now, right?
<mr_pouit> mmh, I thought we kept the one from karmic
<charlie-tca> buttons can be easily moved in Xubuntu settings
<knome> mr_pouit, we can still change it pretty easily, right?
<mr_pouit> yeah
<knome> mr_pouit, and don't have to have exception, as it's only wall?
<mr_pouit> no no, it's only a simple upload
<knome> yup. feel free to add act item: Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.
<mr_pouit> [ACTION] Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.
<mr_pouit> riiight
<knome> new topic please
<charlie-tca> Not any darker than we have already, either, on that wallpaper, please.
<mr_pouit> [TOPIC] team updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  team updates
<pleia2> charlie-tca: +1
<knome> charlie-tca, i'll try to remember that :P
<mr_pouit> you can discuss that with knome yeah ;>
<mr_pouit> mmh, about packaging, nothing really new, it's rather calm
<knome> great. bugs, charlie?
<mr_pouit> I've been working on getting updated office software, that's all (Bug #543612)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 543612 in pyabiword "[FFe] goffice 0.8.1, abiword 2.8.2, gnumeric 1.10.1 & co" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/543612
<charlie-tca> bugs are under control now. Working with gnumeric and abiword devs is going good too
<knome> sidenote: what's goffice?
<charlie-tca> We have quite a few testers running lucid, too, which helps with that.
<mr_pouit> a lib used by abiword an gnumeric knome
<cody-somerville> I'm going to upgrade to Lucid sometime this week.
<knome> mr_pouit, okay
<charlie-tca> I did already. Problem: 64bit with nvidia is a bad upgrade
<crimsun> still have the abiword help menu blocker, correct?
<charlie-tca> right
<knome> charlie-tca, that's a GREAT heads up! :)
<mr_pouit> crimsun: apparently, although I can't reproduce it
<knome> charlie-tca, (tell me when it' fixed ;))
<charlie-tca> waht?
<charlie-tca> the upgrade, you mean?
<knome> yup.
<charlie-tca> I can try
<knome> is that a xubuntu problem or hugebuntu, btw?
<mr_pouit> and we're still affected by Bug #520118 :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 520118 in thunar "thunar select freezes after using mouse to select folders ("detailed view" mode)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/520118
<charlie-tca> don't know for sure, but it seems to be ubuntu, plymouth, nvidia and xsplash related
<mr_pouit> these are the two annoying ones for a lts
<knome> okay
<knome> yeah..
<charlie-tca> yup
<knome> i hope the two meetings would at least be both in english >__<
<Sysi> knome: nah, this isn't that bad to follow
<knome> charlie-tca, i'm told that 64nvidia works after friday's update
<knome> Sysi, it is when you are ACTIVE in both... :P
<charlie-tca> I would be very afraid of it
<Sysi> knome: still :p
<knome> Sysi, quiet. :P
<charlie-tca> It seems to work for some, but it seems to fail for many yet
<knome> okay
<knome> anyway: DEV/coding team?
<knome> mr_pouit, cody-somerville: ?
<cody-somerville> I've been pretty passive this month.
<mr_pouit> well, I've been working on porting stuff to thunar gio lately, but that's not for lucid anyway
<knome> mr_pouit, karmic? lucid+n ?
<knome> :P
<mr_pouit> knome: yeah, +N
<knome> okay
<knome> anything else from the dev front?
<cody-somerville> Yea, I have one thing.
<mr_pouit> not for me
<mr_pouit> ah
 * SiDi reports he is currently in the process of dying, thus unavailable.
<mr_pouit> huhu
<charlie-tca> SiDi going to let us know when that process completes?
<cody-somerville> This might be too late for lucid but I'm wondering if maybe we should re-evaluate the settings menu again.
<SiDi> charlie-tca: yes, of course
<cody-somerville> It is a bit complicated and I've read a blog or two that complains about it
 * knome revives SiDi 
<charlie-tca> :-)
<mr_pouit> cody-somerville: what's the problem? too many entries?
<cody-somerville> Also, I'm curious as to how well simple-scan is working in comparison to xsane.
<charlie-tca> Yes, can't we remove/leave out the xfce4 settings manager?
<knome> charlie-tca, leave it out, but leave in the various dialogs?
<charlie-tca> Everything in it is covered individually as a duplicate entry
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, Thats what most people mention, aye.
<knome> +1 for dropping the settings manager out
<knome> it's just weird, though useful if you know it.
<knome> but mostly confusing
<charlie-tca> yes, but it would be better to either throw it out, or incorporate all the settings into it.
<cody-somerville> I was pondering the latter.
<knome> how easy is it to incorporate them?
<charlie-tca> We really should not need every setting in settings manager duplicated as a separate entry
<knome> if we incorporate everything, we of course should only have one menu item for the settings manager.
<cody-somerville> aye
<cody-somerville> Anyhow, just a thought. We can discuss this more on the mailing list.
<knome> sure.
<charlie-tca> Well, I have 22 entries in settings, and 16 in settings manager
<knome> cody-somerville, will you send a preliminary mail?
<cody-somerville> I'd prefer someone else take that action.
<charlie-tca> I will initiate an email
<cody-somerville> I have one more thing I'd like to bring up for dev and I'm interested in taking the action item for that.
<cody-somerville> Okay, great.
<cody-somerville> The next thing I want to talk about is getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader permissions.
<knome> cody-somerville, maybe send the urls you've read the complaints from to charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> I have seen many of them already
<knome> charlie-tca, great! i'm waiting for the mail anxiously.
<mr_pouit> g, stupid phone
<knome> mr_pouit, no problem.
<mr_pouit> so, who will take care of the settings manager issue? charlie-tca?
<knome> mr_pouit, yes, charlie will send mail to ML
<knome> cody-somerville, i have no objections, especially if you were willing to take action on that.
<mr_pouit> [ACTION] charlie-tca to send an email about the settings menu
<charlie-tca> yup
<MootBot> ACTION received:  charlie-tca to send an email about the settings menu
<cody-somerville> knome, I appreciate you not objecting but I was actually looking for feedback from mr_pouit :P
<knome> cody-somerville, ;]
<mr_pouit> haha
<knome> cody-somerville, maybe you should have pointed him with a finger then
<mr_pouit> yeah, that's fine by me
<mr_pouit> I'm not sure what you mean by "putting seeds in order"
<mr_pouit> but the "uploader permission" stuff is part of the new archive architecture and will be needed, so that's a good idea
<knome> like, taking the poppy seeds apart from the sunflower seeds and ordering them by size.
<mr_pouit> knome: great, I'll copy that as an action for cody :P
 * charlie-tca gets seeds in order when sticking them in the dirt
<knome> mr_pouit, please do
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, I dunno but the TB mentioned it was necessary for the latter
<mr_pouit> okay
<knome> was that everything from the dev front now?
<mr_pouit> [ACTION] cody-somerville to work on getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cody-somerville to work on getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader
<mr_pouit> mmh, last topic is probably the governance structure, right?
<knome> nope
<knome> we still have teams left
<charlie-tca> Team reports are due tomorrow. Let's try to get them in
<knome> testing. charlie?
<charlie-tca> We did testing
<charlie-tca> We have many lucid testers filing bugs now.
<charlie-tca> We could use more help with the iso testing before releases, though
<knome> charlie-tca, any figures? do we have more testers than with karmic or intrepid?
<knome> umm, jaunty...
<charlie-tca> After I broke the system on the upgrade, it took me 12 hours to get it working again
<charlie-tca> Many more than ever before. I have seen at least 8 or ten filing bugs
<cody-somerville> Question: When we setup a council, will that council be responsible for approving new Xubuntu developers?
<charlie-tca> Normally we don't see anybody filing bugs before the final images
<knome> charlie-tca, great.
<mr_pouit> I did some upgrade tests (hardy -> lucid and karmic -> lucid) some weeks ago, and I encountered no xubuntu specific issues
<knome> cody-somerville, isn't that a thing for the governance topic
<mr_pouit> cody-somerville: wait for the next topic :p
<knome> cody-somerville, we're still at the team updates :)
<charlie-tca> I don't think the upgrade bug I hit was xubuntu specific
<charlie-tca> the main bugs we hit was the abiword help file, and the thunar bug
<knome> yeah
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, we are still getting hit by the bugs caused by ubuntu developers dropping packages
<mr_pouit> [ACTION] mr_pouit to perform new upgrade tests, to check for any xubuntu-specific failure
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mr_pouit to perform new upgrade tests, to check for any xubuntu-specific failure
<mr_pouit> (otherwise i'll forget)
<cody-somerville> We need to make these team updates lightning fast for next time. Its already been almost an hour since this meeting started. lol.
<charlie-tca> Is that going to include hardware tests?
<knome> cody-somerville, yes.
<knome> mr_pouit, you should control the discussion more :P
<charlie-tca> Do we have any documentation updates?
<knome> no, jim is taking a break.
<mr_pouit> knome: hehe
<knome> well, we pretty much went through where the artwork+marketing stuff is.
<knome> == pending
<mr_pouit> if we decide to hide some entries in the settings menu, we have to ensure that the docs don't refer to them
<knome> true
<knome> but if we remove the settings manager, that should be a relatively easy task
<mr_pouit> yup, we'll wait for the mail :)
<knome> okay.
<knome> let's get to the governance stuff
<mr_pouit> [TOPIC] governance structure
<MootBot> New Topic:  governance structure
<mr_pouit> ookay, so what's the current status?
<mr_pouit> stalled probably
<knome> yes. cody proposed that we take the edubuntu structure
<mr_pouit> we've the policy from edubuntu indeed
<knome> cody-somerville, can you introduce it to us briefly?
<mr_pouit> does someone have the link to it?
<knome> (or us to it)
<cody-somerville> ummm... I just suggested we do as edubuntu do and get out butt in gear :P
<cody-somerville> I'm not even sure how they set it up
 * charlie-tca agrees +1
<knome> well i talked with stgraber about it in london briefly
<charlie-tca> Welllll, I propose picking 5 Council members today and set up the first meeting
<pleia2> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Council
<knome> and i got the impression it works pretty well
<pleia2> the Delegation document is helpful too
<knome> and is pretty much the same what we actually proposed in the last meeting
<pleia2> oh wait, that's just the main one, hmm
<pleia2> the Charter is the important bit :)
<knome> will the members be nominated by ~ubuntu-members for the xubuntu council?
<cody-somerville> I doubt that'll prove to be helpful.
<knome> i think this is pretty much the biggest difference: # Have a rotating chairman for each EC meeting based alphabetically on IRC nickname, in the event of a split vote the chairman will have an additional vote.
<knome> (and i think the thing we are disagreeing about the most)
<pleia2> well, nominations in general in the community tend to be pretty wide open
<pleia2> it's voting that tends to matter
<mr_pouit> except that xubuntu-focused ubuntu members are probably less than 10 people
<knome> pleia2, "Be voted in by ~edubuntu-members with supervision by the Community Council;" as well
<mr_pouit> so I'm not sure the vote will be meaningful :(
<knome> yeah
<cody-somerville> I'd recommend that we come up with a wiki page proposal.
<pleia2> knome: *nod* that mostly meant the CC reviewed the candidates (for major problems, they were all fine really) and then set up the poll
<knome> cody-somerville, about our governance?
<cody-somerville> And then if we agree on it, take it to the CC for approval. If approved, we'll execute the proposed plan.
<knome> pleia2, ah, right. :)
<cody-somerville> Actually, I remembered something from the strategy document.
<knome> which is?
<cody-somerville> let me quote
<cody-somerville> "Initially, the Xubuntu project leader will be the sole member of this team and no launchpad group will exist. When the Xubuntu project leader requires further individuals to be a member of the council, he or she will then create a launchpad team which will contain the members of the council."
<cody-somerville> This sounds like mr_pouit has the ability to convene a council of his own devices :P
<charlie-tca> yes, it does.
<knome> cody-somerville, but the Doc doesn't really tell how to select those council members?
<charlie-tca> He can pick the initial council members
<pleia2> is this ~xubuntu-team on lp?
<cody-somerville> pleia2, No.
<mr_pouit> flip coin \o/
<pleia2> a council team above it?
<knome> mr_pouit, i'm heads and tails.
<cody-somerville> pleia2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu%20Contributors%20%28xubuntu-team%29
<knome> mr_pouit, ;)
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: however you want to do it
<pleia2> cody-somerville: thanks :)
<cody-somerville> Suggestion: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats.
<knome> 5 members?
<knome> (incl. mr_pouit )
<knome> i want to raise up the discussion about XPL veto vote
<mr_pouit> fine by me, if you agree. We can alsohave the cc review the candidates if that's really needed
<pleia2> 5 members with a deciding-vote-leader tends to work well
<knome> mr_pouit, i don't think so, really
<knome> agree with cody as well.
<knome> no problems in that
<cody-somerville> I'd like mr_pouit to make the decision on that. My suggestion is either 3 to start out with or if we go with 5 then I'd suggest making three of the five members developers and these three members have the exclusive responsibility to approve new Xubuntu developers.
<charlie-tca> That makes the most sense
<knome> cody-somerville, do you mean "at least 3 of 5" or "exactly 3 of 5" ?
<pleia2> mr_pouit: at this stage I'd say you don't need cc to review - as the council matures and perhaps someday is able to approve new xubuntu-members (as part of the ubuntu-members team) that's when the cc should get involved
<knome> cody-somerville, and what are you referring to with "developer" here :)
<mr_pouit> knome: pleia2: ok
<cody-somerville> knome, has upload permissions
<mr_pouit> cody-somerville: do we have 3 developers? :D
<mr_pouit> I think we are only 2 ^_^
<knome> cody-somerville, we don't have 3 developers then.
 * charlie-tca thinks there a many questions
<pleia2> although, a note to the CC saying xubuntu has changed leadership and now has a first council is always appreciated :)
<mr_pouit> yeah sure
<cody-somerville> Also, its of course required to be a ubuntu member to serve on the Xubuntu council.
<knome> mr_pouit, maybe write those down as [agreed]
<mr_pouit> [AGREED] Proposed process: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats, and notify the CC about the leadership change
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Proposed process: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats, and notify the CC about the leadership change
<mr_pouit> semthing like that knome?
<knome> mr_pouit, add: 5 members, members need to be ubuntu members
<knome> (or n members, i don't know if we agreed on 5)
<charlie-tca> Actually, mr_pouit can decide to have the council, and pick his members
<mr_pouit> everyone seems to be happy with 5
<knome> charlie-tca, sure, but we still want to propose it together. :)
<SiDi> I think we should reach for 42.
<cody-somerville> pleia2, To change the council from being appointed to being voted will require changing the Xubuntu strategy. This document is ratified by the CC. Will we not need permission from the CC to update it?
 * SiDi is hiding again.
<mr_pouit> *seem, bah
<pleia2> cody-somerville: it will, I see the voting step as part of the council maturing
<cody-somerville> pleia2, Okay.
<knome> also, what about deciding vote?
<knome> leader vote vs. the edubuntu way?
<knome> edubuntu way for reminder: # Have a rotating chairman for each EC meeting based alphabetically on IRC nickname, in the event of a split vote the chairman will have an additional vote.
<cody-somerville> Edubuntu doesn't seem to have a team lead role whereas Xubuntu does
<mr_pouit> [AGREED] the council will consist of 5 members, who have to belong to ~ubuntu-members
<MootBot> AGREED received:  the council will consist of 5 members, who have to belong to ~ubuntu-members
<knome> cody-somerville, they do have two leaders
<knome> cody-somerville, highvoltage and stgraber
<cody-somerville> Ah.
<knome> cody-somerville, afaik
<pleia2> if there is a real split in the project, having a rotating tie-breaker doesn't work (they can just reverse the decision at the next meeting)
 * cody-somerville nods.
<pleia2> so in the case of xubuntu where there is a respected and recognised leader, I think it makes sense for them to be the tie-breaking chair on the council
<cody-somerville> For us to revoke the XPL's ability to veto (which supersedes any authority the council has currently) will require us updating the strategy document and having the CC approve + ratify the updated document.
<mr_pouit> I'm not really happy with the "more power/veto" idea actually
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, Then its simply a power you can choose to not exercise.
<cody-somerville> We could still have a rotating chairman with casting vote
<knome> mr_pouit, "-- more power/veto for XPL --" ?
<pleia2> fwiw, going to the CC for ratification of a new strategy shouldn't be a big deal, it's easy to explain that the x-council is now being put in place and through discussion the team changed their mind about how it should be configured, the CC won't have a problem with this
<mr_pouit> I can't find any advantage in it: if there's a real split, it's a big problem as anything can be changed the next meeting
<mr_pouit> and if there's no problem and the council is okay, then this veto is useless
<mr_pouit> so in both case, it's not very good
<cody-somerville> thats only if the veto/casting vote rotates
<cody-somerville> Currently you as the XPL has the ability to veto/have casting vote.
<cody-somerville> You could in theory delegate this authority to a rotating chairman
 * pleia2 nods
<cody-somerville> then if there is a split, you can step in and exercise your authority as the XPL.
<cody-somerville> And for folks who knome who are skirmish about such a situation, its important to remember that the CC is the presiding authority over the XPL. So if the XPL were to abuse their power, anyone is free to request the CC to intervene.
<cody-somerville> *like knomw
<cody-somerville> *like knome
<knome> hah
 * charlie-tca nods
<knome> it's not about somebody abusing his/her power
<knome> if the vote is about artwork and ends 2-2, artwork leader saying yes and XPL saying no, i'm not sure if XPL is the correct person to decide.
<mr_pouit> (what is more likely to happen is that these folks will lose interest in contributing and step back rather than requesting a CC intervention imho)
<cody-somerville> I doubt it
<cody-somerville> If they're that passionate to be on the council, they're probably passionate enough to go to the CC.
<knome> unfortunately i agree with mr_pouit.
<cody-somerville> The escalation process is well defined and easy
<highvoltage> stgraber and I are the release managers, but we don't have a leader as such
<knome> that wouldn't be the case with me, but might be the case with somebody else.
<highvoltage> it sounds a bit weird but it works for us
<cody-somerville> knome, The artwork leader is only the artwork leader because the XPL has appointed that person
<cody-somerville> knome, Their authority derives from the trust and delegation the XPL has placed in that individual.
<pleia2> knome: honestly I don't know if I've ever seen a decision go like that, the chair/leaders in the community tend to respect the expertise of their key leaders
<cody-somerville> knome, So the XPL is always the final buck since he or she is the one responsible for the overall direction and success of the project
<knome> cody-somerville, yes, but the artwork lead probably is more "expertised" in artwork than the project leader, if the project leader belongs in the dev team.
<mr_pouit> and with the rotating chairman idea, if the chairman is the doc team leader, and the topic is a technical topic, how is he supposed to decide?
<knome> pleia2, we've had situations where cody disagrees with the rest of the dev team about some minor artwork detail and uses his veto.
<mr_pouit> and the cc is completely useless on technical topics also (same for artwork, doc, etc.)
<pleia2> knome: ah, ok
<cody-somerville> knome, I don't recall such a case.
<cody-somerville> knome, I recall disagreeing and as we've discussed in the pass that doesn't mean I've vetoed anything.
<knome> cody-somerville, that was with the karmic release artwork, when you didn't like how the text was aligned and was unwilling to use the version i proposed.
<highvoltage> mr_pouit: indeed, that definitely won't work for everyone. edubuntu is probably a rare exception where it could work since the whole council is technical
<cody-somerville> *past
<mr_pouit> highvoltage: ah, okay, that explains a lot ;)
<cody-somerville> knome, ultimately your subsequent revision was a million times better and I'm pretty sure you agreed as well.
<knome> cody-somerville, when a team leader is loyal to the (X)PL, he doesn't want to disobey and go on releasing with the (X)PL not agreeing
<knome> cody-somerville, i don't think it was *that* much better.
<knome> cody-somerville, the previous revision would have worked as good as the new one.
<cody-somerville> Ultimately it was better and provided the level of professional for our public image that I was looking to maintain.
<knome> that wasn't what you told then (at least not when you saw the first revision) and really, i think pretty much everybody agreed that the older revision was already awesome enough.
<cody-somerville> I can't really find much sympathy for a situation where I pushed you to do better and you did.
<charlie-tca> old and done
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, agreed.
<cody-somerville> Shall we continue? We're 20 minutes away from this meeting being two hours.
<charlie-tca> please
<knome> cody-somerville, that leaves me with the image that you don't value what i did.
<knome> cody-somerville, it was late night (probably over 1am) when you turned down my older revision.
<charlie-tca> we all know knome is not going to agree to anything that says he can be overridden, so let's move away from that for now.
<pleia2> I am inclined to suggest the team sticks to the letter of the strategy document at this time (which means XPL leads the council)
<mr_pouit> okay, I still disagree with the "overriding" partâ¦ Anyway, someone volunteers to work on the draft for the council?
<pleia2> mr_pouit: as the XPL, I'd say you have the descretion to say that you will not exercise that part
<pleia2> (actually I didn't see overriding in the strat doc)
<pleia2> just "own and lead"
<cody-somerville> "The project lead also has the casting vote/veto ability. This capacity is not used lightly. The community functions best when it can reach broad consensus about a way forward. However, it is not uncommon in the open source world for there to be multiple good arguments, no clear consensus, and for arguments to divide communities rather than enrich them. The argument absorbs the energy that might otherwise have gone towards t
<cody-somerville> he creation of a solution. In many cases, there is no one "right" answer, and what is needed is a decision more than a debate. The project lead should act to provide clear leadership on difficult issues, and set the pace for the project. It is understood that the divisive use of the project leads authority could weaken the project. For that reason the authority is used carefully, in the hope that it will create momentum in t
<cody-somerville> he best direction for the project, breaking stalemates where otherwise competing views would fail to reach consensus."
<pleia2> ah, there we go :)
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, I agree to take the action item
<mr_pouit> [ACTION] cody-somerville to work on the draft policy document for the council
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cody-somerville to work on the draft policy document for the council
<mr_pouit> and for once, let's try to discuss this topic and the ml also
<mr_pouit> otherwise we do never-ending meetings
<cody-somerville> kk
<mr_pouit> ok I think we're done then
<mr_pouit> anything left?
<cody-somerville> I don't have anything
<charlie-tca> nothing here
<mr_pouit> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:45.
<charlie-tca> Thanks to everybody for showing up
<mr_pouit> no, thank you ;)
 * charlie-tca thinks he made knome mad, though
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-03-14
<nigelb> 84
<weecol> cough cough good morning
<weecol> have we a scheduled time for the next meeting
<weecol> bots
<weecol> botshi
<weecol> hi
<weecol> do we have work we need discussed?
<weecol> i'll idle here then
 * Laney phases in
<cyphermox> Laney: my application probably can't be processed today seeing as my email made it to devel-permissions. AFAIK it's still held in the moderation queue
<Laney> hm, I thought that devel-permissions was unmoderated
<Laney> anyway... it appears we are inquorate
<RAOF> It is, as long as you've subscribed.
<cyphermox> any idea who would be able to release my message?
<RAOF> Just Laney and a hopeful RAOF :)
<Laney> bdrung is around, but two does not a quorum make
<Laney> if more appear later we can maybe have an impromptu session
<Laney> sorry all
<Laney> cyphermox: I will look into the moderation issue
<cyphermox> Laney, thanks
 * RAOF slouches off to his UTC+11 bed.
<cyphermox> worst case, I can just subscribe and re-send
<RAOF> That's what I did :)
<cyphermox> ugh, right, this is *really* early for you
<cyphermox> or really late ;)
<RAOF> Not *desperately* late.
<RAOF> 11pm.
<RAOF> (11 hours after 12pm âº)
<cyphermox> right
 * marjo waves at pitti, ara
<pitti> hey marjo, how are you?
 * ara waves
<marjo> pitti: fine thx; how are you?
<zul> hi
 * skaet waves
<skaet> looks like we're not going to have bjf or sconklin today.
 * charlie-tca waves
<skaet> do folks want to continue with the meeting,  or shoudl we reschedule?   ara, pitti, marjo?
<vanhoof> hi skaet
<ara> skaet, I would continue with the meeting, the kernel team can have a look to the meeting logs
<marjo> with bjf or sconklin, doesn't make sense
 * hggdh waits :-)
<marjo> skaet_ ^^^
<marjo> but i'll defer to ara :)
<ara> but I am easy :)
<skaet> hmm,  might be good to get any other issues out,  so,  will go ahead.  :)
<skaet> no one will object to a short meeting I suspect?
<skaet> :)
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> Reminder, please follow the convention  of using ".." on a separate line when you've finished typing.    Also, If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet> [TOPIC] End of Life - Karmic, Hardy-Desktop
<MootBot> New Topic:  End of Life - Karmic, Hardy-Desktop
<skaet> ust a reminder that April 2011 will see end of life of Karmic Koala (9.10), and Hardy Heron (8.04) Desktop.
<skaet> Dapper Drake (6.06) Server will end of life in June 2011.
<skaet> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
<skaet> ..
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] LTS - 10.04.3
<MootBot> New Topic:  LTS - 10.04.3
<skaet> milestoned bugs are in the agenda,   10.04.3 is est. July 14th
<skaet> please put in agenda if you know of any concerns,  things to avoid around that date.
<skaet> milestoned bugs can be found there as well.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel SRU status - skipping this week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel SRU status - skipping this week
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA status - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA status - marjo
<marjo> hi folks
<marjo> Lucid
<marjo> Testing done on March 9
<marjo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/KernelSRU-lucid-2.6.32-30.59
<marjo> Lucid EC2
<marjo> Testing passed on March 7
<marjo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/KernelSRU-lucid-2.6.32-314.27
<marjo> Karmic
<marjo> Testing done on March 11
<marjo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/KernelSRU-karmic-2.6.31-23.74
<marjo> Karmic EC2
<marjo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<marjo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/KernelSRU-karmic-2.6.31-308.28
<marjo> Planned for Week of March 14
<marjo> Maverick
<marjo> Testing started today March 14
<marjo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/726796
<marjo> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/linux-backports-modules-2.6.35/2.6.35-28.19
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 726796 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "linux: 2.6.35-28.49 -proposed tracker" [Medium,Fix committed]
<marjo> Hardy
<marjo> Testing starts after Maverick tests are completed
<marjo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/725138
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 725138 in linux (Ubuntu Hardy) "linux: 2.6.24-29.87 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<marjo> ..
<skaet> thanks marjo
<marjo> thx skaet
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] HW certification - ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  HW certification - ara
<ara> o/
<ara> This week we reached the coverage of 75 certified systems with 10.04LTS and 75 systems with 10.10.
<ara> The tests that failed in Maverick are due to problems with the tests themselves, and are not regressions in the kernel. From our side, Maverick kernel is ready to be uploaded to -updates, as we stated in the tracking bug.
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/maverick-proposed.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/maverick-proposed.html
<ara> From the tests that failed in Lucid, we were only suspicious of two failing systems that failed the network tests. That's why we removed the verification-done tag from the tracking bug on Lucid. We just finished investigating those right now and we will now update the tracking bug as we have confirmed that those are not regressions.
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/lucid-proposed.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/lucid-proposed.html
<ara> ..
<skaet> thanks ara!   what is the root cause of the maverick failures?   some other bugs or hardware?
<skaet> sorry
<skaet> just re-read what you said
<ara> :)
<skaet> ok,  test failures.
<skaet> anyone else have questions for ara?
<skaet> [TOPIC] general SRU status - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  general SRU status - pitti
<pitti> mostly business as usual
<pitti> note that this week I'm going to have an SRU training session with SpammapS (Clint Byrum)
<pitti> he aggreed to join the SRU team \o/
<skaet> *\o/* ;)
<pitti> so you might soon see messages and SRU processing from him as well
<zul> muhaha
<skaet> ..?
<zul> never mind me
<skaet> nah,  just wondering if pitti was still typing or if he was done?
<pitti> ..
<skaet> :)
<pitti> skaet: (sorry, have the plumber in the flat right now)
 * hggdh starts imagining a whole dialog of '..'
<ara> hehe
<skaet> thanks pitti,  no worries..
<skaet> [TOPIC] OEM bug priorities? - vanhoof
<MootBot> New Topic:  OEM bug priorities? - vanhoof
<vanhoof> skaet: o/
<skaet> :)
<vanhoof> skaet: we have an on-going issue we're debugging, which may result in a request for SRU, but we're still not close to the final root cause
<vanhoof> that's the only pressing item I have open now
<vanhoof> everything else is already verified in -proposed, or ack'd appropriately for the next SRU cycle
<skaet> ..?
<vanhoof> ..
<skaet> cool
<skaet> thanks vanhoof!
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Support team - customer bug priorities - martins
<MootBot> New Topic:  Support team - customer bug priorities - martins
 * skaet looks around though and doesn't see martins,  so we'll come back to this next time....
<skaet> [TOPIC] New business, last chance for general questions? - all
<MootBot> New Topic:  New business, last chance for general questions? - all
<zul> hi
<zul> i have one thing
<skaet> go zul :)
<zul> we have a SRU for bind for a new upstream version (9.7.0 -> 9.7.3)
<zul> its at the techboard level https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-February/000709.html
<zul> but it hasnt been looked at by the tb yet
<zul> and we have a couple of weeks before all hell breaks loose
<zul> Daviey is handing it right now
<zul> ...
<skaet> Thanks for the head's up zul.   what's the bug number?
<zul> 651875 i think
<zul> mdz just responded to it so its in the SRU team hands now
<skaet> pitti, ^^   will get with you about it then offline.
<zul> cool thanks!
<skaet> zul,  I'll keep it on the "keep close eye on it" then list,  till we know its in the flow, and add it to the agenda to track next meeting.
<Daviey> mdz, Thanks for updating that
<mdz> Daviey, np, sorry it took so long
<skaet> [ACTION] skaet work with zul, Daviey, pitti on 651875 update plans
<MootBot> ACTION received:  skaet work with zul, Daviey, pitti on 651875 update plans
<skaet> anyone else have questions? new business?
<pitti> skaet, zul: that by and large just needs an upload
<skaet> :)
<skaet> cool
<zul> pitti: right ill poke daviey to do it then
<skaet> Reminder: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-03-14-SR is where the agenda is being tracked.
<skaet> its hot linked from StableReleaseAgenda each meeting.
<skaet> let me know off line if you want some items rearranged.
<skaet> thanks ara, marjo, pitti, vanhoof, zul, Daviey
<skaet> #endmeeting.
<marjo> skaet: thx
<ara> thanks all!
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:27.
<pitti> thanks everyone
 * skaet makes note not to put . after endmeeting in future.  :P
<jdstrand> kees, sbeattie, micahg, jjohansen: meeting?
<jjohansen> \o
<kees> o/
<micahg> o/
<jdstrand> ok, let's start
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:07. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> since the security team is in north america, we decided to move the meeting to 1700UTC due to recent DST
<jdstrand> (it is a more convient time for members of the team)
 * sbeattie is here
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of any previous action items
<jdstrand> I don't see any new action items from last week. so let's move on
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I am on community
<jdstrand> last week was a short week for me, and due to several meetings, patch piloting, training and other surprises, I did very little of what I thought I was going to do last week
<jdstrand> we'll see how this week goes :)
<jdstrand> currently I have:
<jdstrand> USN publication site updates. the ISD team will be making the usn area a 'microsite', and it won't be drupal based
<jdstrand> (aiui)
<jdstrand> while they are implementing it, I said I would help with direction, feedback and testing
<jdstrand> I'd like to get to my QRT fixes/additions to libvirt and apparmor
<jdstrand> last week I started on a 'test-net' test for apparmor in QRT, but I didn't finish
<kees> For the usb microsite, it would be great if it just read directly from the usn pickle
<jdstrand> kees: yeah, I got your email and plan to bring that up with them. that is a good idea
<jdstrand> (sorry for not responding to the email)
<kees> no worries, figured this was good place to bring it up :)
<jdstrand> lots of little bugs/sponsoring accumulating (ufw, libvirt, *blacklists, etc, etc)
 * micahg would suggest a cache time of 1hr on the generated pages
<jdstrand> I have a lot of piddly stuff I'd just like to sweep away
<jdstrand> micahg: noted
<jdstrand> assuming I can get through that, I have a dbus-glib update I almost completely forgot about, and would like to see if I can pick anything else up
<jdstrand> kees: you're up
<kees> okay, I've got a few upstream kernel leaks I'm still trying to get traction on. like everything there, the only way to get some of this stuff fixed is to fix it myself. :(
<kees> there was a regression in the tiff update that I'll take
<kees> bug 731540
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 731540 in tiff (Ubuntu) "Regression when reading CCITTFAX4 files due to fix for CVE-2011-0192 (tif_fax3.h)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/731540
<kees> and then I'll just be working through my todo list
<kees> graph updates, etc
<kees> one things Ng asked about was if we could order CVEs in the USN by priority instead of my serial number.
<kees> I'm of two minds about it, but said I'd bring it up
<Ng> it was just so that I'd be able to triage USNs and see the scariest things first
<jdstrand> most of the USNs that shouldn't be a big deal
<jdstrand> the kernel, firefox, webkit, etc can have a few at a time though
<sbeattie> openjdk
<jdstrand> the kernel is hopefully going to be resolving itself as the backlog is diminishing
<jdstrand> sbeattie: true
<sbeattie> and a lot of those, we're somewhat swag'ing on the priority level as it is.
<jdstrand> hmm
<jdstrand> kees: iirc, the tools will sort them no matter what order we enter them. is that right?
<kees> the bulk of stuff is medium and its priority to the user depends on their environment
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> I'm betting Ng is thinking most about kernels
 * sbeattie agrees, our medium covers kind of a wide spectrum.
<kees> jdstrand: the tools try to produce an ordered list, yes
<jdstrand> (of the ones we just mentioned)
<kees> what shows up in the USN description, however, can be sorted differently
<Ng> jdstrand: yep
<jdstrand> kees: true. we could just take it as a TODO and a wiki edit to trye to organize them in the USN by priority, at least for the kernel
<kees> I think putting high and critical at the top would be fine. the rest aren't worth ordering, I think.
<jdstrand> tbh, I like how the top of the USN has them sorted. I think it makes it easier to see if a particular USN fixes a CVE you are interested in
<jdstrand> kees: I agree
<kees> right, in the CVE list, I would want it sorted serially
 * jdstrand nods
<kees> I'll play with having it produce the description list in priority-sorted then serial-sorted order
<jdstrand> Ng: if we put high and critical as the first USNs in the description, would that be helpful enough?
<jdstrand> err
<jdstrand> the first CVEs* in the USN description
<Ng> jdstrand: I can't speak for everyone, but I tend to go with the descriptions in the "Details follow" section rather than pull up the full CVE for everything. If you guys say it's a crash only and there's no code execution or privilege escalation I'm unlikely to read the full CVE
<Ng> (particularly when a kernel USN references 46 CVE numbers ;)
<kees> yeah
<kees> okay, i'll give it a shot. that's it from me.
<jdstrand> Ng: right. the 'Details follow' is the part I was saying we could put the High and Critical. I think that is a reasonable and doable request (esp wrt the kernel). what do others think?
<jdstrand> ok then :)
<jdstrand> kees: can you add a small wiki edit too?
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<kees> jdstrand: sure
<Ng> jdstrand: that would be perfect for me :)
<sbeattie> with mdeslaur on vacation for most of this week, I'm covering triage for him.
<sbeattie> openjdk-6 arm packages finally built, so I'll be releasing those soon.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: thanks for doing triage btw
<sbeattie> I have another embargoed issue I'm working on.
<sbeattie> And I have a bit of apparmor bugwork and documentation to do.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<jdstrand> thanks
<jdstrand> micahg: you're up
<micahg> There was a chromium chemspill release from pwn2own, so I'm finishing up testing on that
<micahg> This week I hope to at least get the webkit update staged
<micahg> I also hope to do some triage WRT the webkit CVEs
<micahg> that's it
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> I have to small items
<jdstrand> oh
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> ok, I have 2 small items
<jdstrand> watching the vsec demise conversation on oss-security, I noticed that xorg said that distros subscribe to xorg-security@lists.x.org
<jdstrand> I am not subscribed to that list personally
 * sbeattie either.
<jdstrand> we should consider subscribing an individual or the team
<jjohansen> team if they will let you
<micahg> +2
<micahg> oops
<micahg> +1
<kees> +3 :)
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> +4
<jdstrand> ok, we can look at that
<sbeattie> are there other security lists we should have a representative on?
<jdstrand> the other thing is that everone should have gotten their performance review email. nothing to discuss there, just be aware of it and if you have questions, ask
<jdstrand> sbeattie: probably. though otoh I don't know of any
<jdstrand> that is all I have
<jdstrand> does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<kees> I already did mine (usn cve priority ordering)
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> alrighty
<jdstrand> well, thanks everyone! have a great week :)
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:38.
<kees> cool, thanks jdstrand !
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<jdstrand> sure thing :)
<micahg> jdstrand: tahnks
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-03-15
 * ogitux waitting ubuntu-meeting start
<ogitux> hii persia , elky` when start ubuntu-meeting with Agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania thanks before.
<lifeless> 5 hours or something I think
<ogitux> hii persia , elky, ejat when start ubuntu-meeting with Agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania thanks before.
<elky> I'm not sure persia will be able to join us, he's in Japan. ejat, freeflying, lifeless
 * ejat here .. 
<ejat> ouch .. persia in japan ? hope he's fine :)
<czajkowski> I'm here if you need another board member for numbers - EMEA
<elky> We need another one before we meet quorum
<elky> (besides you, that is)
<czajkowski> have you poked popey or ogra
<popey> o/
<elky> Not yet, I was giving the members of this board the courtesy of reply for a few minutes.
<czajkowski> elky: fair enough thought it was due t start 8 mins ago.
<elky> Awesome, lets roll.
<elky> ogitux, do you have your pre-prepared introduction ready?
<ogitux> elky:  yes I ready
<elky> ogitux, could you please paste your introduction then?
<ejat> elky: start meeting ?
<elky> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:12. The chair is elky.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<elky> [topic] ogitux's application
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogitux's application
<ogitux> My name Adnan Kashogi , I Live in Indonesia , why I want join member ubuntu because i want study about environment operating system opensource and first in there now I am study system information faculty on indonesia budiluhur university, else I so work in shipping transportation corporat my job is IT Staff. enough
<ejat> anything else to add ..
<elky> ogitux, your introduction got cut off at "enough" ... was there more?
<ogitux> ejat: elky  enough
<elky> ogitux, what are your contributions to the Ubuntu project?
<ogitux> yes I has contribute on Ubuntu Loco Team
<elky> ogitux, what do you do for the loco team?
<elky> ogitux, are you still there?
<ogitux> elky: yes
<udienz> offline meeting
<udienz> ups, wrong channel
<elky> ogitux, what do you do for the loco team?
<ogitux> elky: manage Administration mailling list, active on irc #ubuntu-id, and offline meeting
<czajkowski> ogitux: how are you inovolved http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-id
<elky> udienz, are you here to support ogitux?
<elky> if you're coaching him on the english to use, maybe it might be worth you giving a testimonial on his behalf :)
<udienz> elky, yes. i'm here for ogitux
<elky> his english doesn't need to be perfect to be a member, but we do need to hear what he does, and we're a little under-informed at the moment I think
<udienz> well, he is a member now. usually only  folks with Membership can administrer
<elky> huh?
<udienz> but he is very active in IRC, Mailling list
<udienz> i mean administer on LP page or under loco.u.c
<udienz> sorry for delay :)
<ejat> any other thing that he work/contribute ....
<lifeless> bah, late - sorry
<elky> udienz, i find one email for him in the entire google group, is he posting under a different name?
<ogitux> elky: my name on google groups is vmlokal
<lifeless> elky: btw, lifeless doesn't grab me - lifeless: does
<czajkowski> lifeless: if you're here I can head to a meeting
<lifeless> I am here
<lifeless> its 2330 but I can stay till 2400
<popey> http://groups.google.com/group/id-ubuntu/search?group=id-ubuntu&q=vmlokal&qt_g=Search+this+group
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://groups.google.com/group/id-ubuntu/search?group=id-ubuntu&q=vmlokal&qt_g=Search+this+group
<popey> I only see one thread
<elky> udienz, what does ogitux do with the offline meetings? just attend?
<udienz> elky. actually i'm not attend while meeting because ogitux home too far from me. but i hear from others that he is not only attend
<udienz> ~500km
<elky> udienz, what do others say he does?
<udienz> elky, I hear that he come and discussing about Jakarta SubLoco
<udienz> maybe 3 times meeting. if i'm not forget
<elky> Ok, I'm ready to vote, lifeless: ejat, popey?
<lifeless> sure
<elky> [vote] ogitux for member?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ogitux for member?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<elky> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from elky. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<lifeless> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from lifeless. 0 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<ejat> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ejat. 0 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
<popey> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from popey. 0 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 0
<elky> I don't feel like enough has been done. The wiki mentions wanting to do packaging in the future, I strongly recommend going via motu
<popey> I agree, its hard to see a significant and sustained contribution
<lifeless> ack
<popey> if there's contributions we can't see then they need to be more fully documented on the wiki page
<elky> !motu
<ubottu> motu is short for Masters of the Universe. The brave souls who maintain the packages in the Universe section of Ubuntu. See  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<elky> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 0
<elky> Sorry ogitux.
<ogitux> elky: okay thanks
<udienz> afaik, to get membership via devepment through ~universe-contributor
<elky> shani, are you around?
<elky> got an away ping from shani so moving on.
<elky> stub is not in the channel?
<lifeless> let me grab hinm
<popey> just poked him in #lp
<elky> ta
<elky> [topic] stub's membership application
<MootBot> New Topic:  stub's membership application
<lifeless> I'm going to recuse myself from voting on stub unless the other board members want me to - he reports to me @work
<elky> welcome! introduce yourself :)
<elky> lifeless, that would put us below quorum unless you can re-conjour czajkowski or someone else
<stub> Hi, I'm Stuart Bishop and I'm unprepared for this meeting
<lifeless> czajkowski: persia: yo
<stub> I've worked for Canonical since pre-warty on the Launchpad project a developer and DBA
<lifeless> elky: its up to you and popey; if you are comfortable that I can be objective enough, I'm happy to vote.
<stub> Apart from Launchpad, my main contributions to Ubuntu are in beta testing and bug reporting.
<stub> I maintain the pytz Python timezone library
<popey> stub: do you do 'formal' testing or is this 'when i find a bug i report it' type testing?
<stub> I'm an expat Australian currently living in Bangkok.
<stub> When I find a bug, I report it, help diagnose and test fixes.
<popey> I can certainly see a lot of bug work
<popey> understandably a lot in launchpad
<elky> stub, how many languages do you speak/write?
<stub> English and some basic Thai.
<popey> I have no more questions and am happy to vote whenever
<stub> I can read a menu in Thai :)
<popey> hah
<ejat> stub: do u join thai loco :)
<elky> stub, this is the most important part of a language, indeed.
<ejat> i mean .. any loco activities ..
<stub> I've been involved in the local barcamps. Locos are too advanced for my Thai.
 * ejat winks :)
<elky> I do of course ask this question because I'm looking at your translations teams/etc
<ejat> c00l barcamps ..
<elky> Either way, I'm ready to vote also
<elky> [vote] stub for membership?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  stub for membership?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 * ejat too
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ejat> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ejat. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<elky> lifeless, your vote is merely a formality :)
<popey> bah, you initiated vote just as I went to get a biscuit!
<lifeless> +0 [recusing as per above]
<MootBot> Abstention received from lifeless. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stub> \o/
<popey> thanks for your great work stub, keep it up :)
<elky> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
<stub> Thanks!
<stub> I'll go get my tattoo then.
<ejat> congrate ...
<ejat> ubuntu tattoo ? wwooo :)
<elky> ubuntuku around under a different nick?
 * ejat no i dea
<elky> and sadeq doesn't seem to be either
<ejat> ubuntuku calling twice ..
<elky> We're kind of out of time to process a whole application anyway I think
<popey> also sadeq is MIA
<ejat> end meeting i guess ..
<popey> makes sense
<elky> ejat, popey, lifeless: czajkowski, thanks!
<elky> [endmeeting]
<popey> thanks for chairing elky !
<elky> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 05:56.
<ejat> thanks for chairing ..
<elky> I *always* fail that.
<lifeless> thanks all
<ejat> thanks all
<dholbach> popey, ready? :)
<popey> yup
<dholbach> I pinged Greg, but he might still be asleep :)
<dholbach> but maybe we can get his opinion or advice over email
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:02. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda still lists the ubuntu jobs page as an agenda item
<dholbach> popey, do you recall if we had an action item for it the last time?
<popey> let me check
<popey> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/01/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t21:01
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/01/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t21:01
<popey> no actions
<dholbach> ok, nothing on there
<dholbach> [action] dholbach to get more opinions on bug #605969
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to get more opinions on bug #605969
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605969 in Ubuntu Website "Redirect /employment to webapps.ubuntu.com/employment" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605969
<dholbach> ok, let's crack on
<dholbach> [topic] Ubuntu Wiki Relicensing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Wiki Relicensing
<dholbach> (this is the only agenda item I have)
<dholbach> we asked for feedback on the ubuntu wiki relicensing and established a period of 4 weeks where we wait for advice and concerns until we move on and finally get the content on the wiki a proper license
<popey> we've had a lot of good feedback
<dholbach> I'm happy to say that the vast vast majority of the comments all appreciated that we are trying to solve a problem and were delighted by the choice of license (cc-by-sa 3.0)
<dholbach> some comments were related to us not trying to get explicit approval of each and every single contributor to the wiki
<dholbach> as far as I remember there's been more than 15k contributors to the wiki
<dholbach> so it's simply not feasible to try to do that
<dholbach> what we're doing is a best efforts attempt at getting everybody's feedback
<dholbach> so we mailed every single contributor and also spread the news about it widely
<dholbach> the single piece of feedback regarding the license itself was about the "drm clause" that's in cc-by-sa 3.0
<dholbach> give me a sec to dig it ou
<dholbach> "When You Distribute or Publicly Perform the Work, You may not impose
<dholbach> any effective technological measures on the Work that restrict the
<dholbach> ability of a recipient of the Work from You to exercise the rights
<dholbach> granted to that recipient under the terms of the License."
<dholbach> AIUI the concern raised was related to limiting the choice of devices by imposing this clause on users of ubuntu wiki content
<dholbach> the solution proposed was to "dual license" the content and remove this clause from the "second license"
<dholbach> I don't speak for the CC here, but personally I can see where the concern is coming from and agree that it'd be unfortunate to limit readers of the content
<dholbach> unfortunately we don't have folks like greg-g, mdke or mako here who I'm sure would have an opinion on it
<dholbach> does anybody have any thoughts related to the point above?
<popey> I don't like the idea that we're limiting where people can use the content that community members created
<dholbach> yes, I agree
<popey> I like the idea that we could generate (for example) a pdf, ebook, epub or whatever format file and distribute that in stores (for free or fee) which have DRM on them
<popey> we will of course always make it available in non-DRM formats
<dholbach> it'd be nice to get opinions on this specific points (and other related bits) as we haven't received explicit feedback about it via mail yet
<popey> but for the widest possible flexibility I don't think we should limit ourselves
<popey> agreed
<dholbach> even if we can't make a decision about it now (no quorum, etc.), it would at least be good data points to keep the discussion going
<dholbach> yes, popey, I agree with you
<dholbach> Does anyone have feedback about this topic at all?
<elky> I like the dual-licence idea.
<dholbach> ok... it seems like there's no additional feedback on this, at least not here - if you have additional data points you want the CC to consider, please mail the CC about it
<dholbach> thanks elky
<dholbach> popey, maybe we should bring it up in the next CC meeting (with more data points) and aim to make a decision around that time
<popey> yup
<dholbach> IIRC Greg was pinged about the specific dual-license idea already, so we might have his opinion for the next meeting then
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> let's move on then
<dholbach> [topic] any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other business
<dholbach> looks like not :)
<popey> heh
<dholbach> [action] dholbach to produce team report / minutes and find chair for next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to produce team report / minutes and find chair for next meeting
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:22.
<dholbach> thanks everyone
 * dholbach hugs popey
<popey> \o/
<popey> next meeting 29th at 21:00 UTC?
<dholbach> popey, 5th Apr?
<dholbach> but, yes, 21:00
<dholbach> I don't think we have a fifth thursday of the month rule
<popey> ok, I'll chair
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> thanks popey
<dholbach> adjourned :)
<czajkowski> elky: np sorry couldnt stay meetings called
<SpamapS> Tue Mar 15 16:01:58 UTC 2011
 * smb thinks that is correct
<smoser> o/
<hallyn> \o
<SpamapS> |o|
<kirkland> o/
<ttx> \o
<SpamapS> hallyn: did you forget to update the wiki page?
<hallyn> who's up?
<hallyn> SpamapS: i didnt run the last mtg
<hallyn> SpamapS: did you forget to update the wiki page? :)
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<SpamapS> Looks like smoser o zul did..
<zul> that would be smoser
<hallyn> the action items look diff from last week's
<smoser> i updated this morning
<smoser> it is hallyn's turn to lead
<SpamapS> ahh right
<hallyn> SpamapS: so quit whining
<hallyn> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:06. The chair is hallyn.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<SpamapS> smoser: you forgot the header update.
<Daviey> (sorry i'm late, meeting overan)
<SpamapS> thats what confused me
<smoser> i did?
<hallyn> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> ah. yes.
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> Daviey to talk with wider docs team regarding translations
<hallyn> Daviey: ^ did that happen?
<Daviey> hallyn, defer
<Daviey> :(
<hallyn> [ACTION] Daviey to talk with wider docs team regarding translations (deferred)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to talk with wider docs team regarding translations (deferred)
<hallyn> thanks
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<hallyn> RoAkSoAx: around?
<hallyn> bleh
<hallyn> robbiew: around?
<robbiew> yep
<robbiew> in terms of development for Natty
<robbiew> nothing huge to bring up
<SpamapS> upstart ppa would be good
<robbiew> I need to look at the burndowns, but overall (given we're in feature freeze)...we're fine there
<robbiew> SpamapS: huh?
<SpamapS> Sorry I typed and hit enter before thinking ;)
<robbiew> there is an upstart ppa
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> bug wise...there's the eucalyptus/dhcp thing
<robbiew> and apparently lxc containers broke with latest openstack updates
<robbiew> (per zul)
<ttx> yay live migration
<robbiew> but no OMG! issues...at least not yet ;)
<zul> well i got past that part
<Daviey> Eucalyptus bug, dhcpd - is still a major concern.
<Daviey> bug #717166
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 717166 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Natty) "Broken with v4 isc-dhcp-server in Natty" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/717166
<hallyn> Daviey: is everyone who needs to be involved, involved?
<Daviey> hallyn, Upstream have been chased - but still no update.
<hallyn> no action items to be added here?
<Daviey> no.
<SpamapS> this is not related to the dhcp server starting before eth0 is up is it?
<zul> no
<hallyn> robbiew: any more?
<robbiew> oh, sorry
<robbiew> nope
<robbiew> multitasking :/
<Daviey> SpamapS, different interface to dhcpd.
<hallyn> thanks :)
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<hallyn> we're trying to decide on a location for a lxc development mini-conf
<hallyn> preferably in august (earlier I can't attend, later is... too late :)
<hallyn> any new events?
<hallyn> and, btw, should a link to the list of events be on the meeting page or something?
<SpamapS> I will be speaking at the mysql UC
<SpamapS> en.oreilly.com/mysql2011/
<hallyn> date?
<SpamapS> April 11 - 14
<hallyn> topic? :)
<SpamapS> I am speaking on the 13th and will only be ther 13th/14th
<SpamapS> "Run Drizzle on Your Narwhal"
<hallyn> cool
<SpamapS> http://en.oreilly.com/mysql2011/public/schedule/detail/17640
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://en.oreilly.com/mysql2011/public/schedule/detail/17640
<hallyn> oh, hey - ubuntu cloud days counts as an event :)
<hallyn> next week wed and thu, be there or be square
<zul> Open Stack summit next month as well
<hallyn> who all is going?
<SpamapS> Right I think thats the next week after the mysql UC
<hallyn> zul: are you going to openstack summit?
<zul> hallyn: afaik right now yes
<hallyn> ok,  anything else?
<hallyn> moving on...
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> we are still blocked on euca
<hallyn> the dhcp bug again?
<Daviey> yes
<hggdh> or still, the bug was open up to last week. I did not receive any updates on it
<hggdh> this is starting to be a real issue
<hggdh> apart from that, life is good
<hggdh> ..
<hallyn> any sort of escalation we can do?  (and action here)  or are we jsut stuck waiting?
<hggdh> Daviey: ?
<Daviey> hallyn, I will post a another follow up, raising urgency
<hallyn> [ACTION] Daviey: post another followup one euca-dhcp bug
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey: post another followup one euca-dhcp bug
<hallyn> thanks Daviey
<hallyn> any questions for hggdh ?
<hallyn> moving on,
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> \o
<smb> So last week mainly was
<smb> * working on some multipath debugging
<smb> * looking into some patches proposed for xen and finding there is much more to do (currently doing that)
<smb> smoser, btw all the requested patches are in Natty
<smoser> smb, in a archive kernel ?
<smoser> or were they already
<smb> smoser, So if it does not work there (t1.micro and java) it may be something else
<smoser> it does not work. at least last i tested.
<smoser> it is extremely easy to test
<smb> All patches seemed to be in since 2.6.37
<smoser> yeah, i commented in that bug about the version i tested
<hallyn> thanks, smb. any questions for him?
<smb> Anyway it makes (unfortunately, as it is a lot of work) sense to sync our lucid-ec2 with upstream opensuse
<smoser> i verified it was present in vmlinuz-2.6.38-2-virtual
<smb> hallyn, one thing was your backports of kvm patches too. Sent them up today and nudged for a second ack for our lucid tree
<smoser> smb, there is discussion in bug 732046
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 732046 in linux (Ubuntu) "Missing filesystem modules in -virtual package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/732046
<hallyn> smb: yup, thanks, saw that
<smoser> brought up by loic. we have a need for some -virtual module  or config work
<smb> smoser, Yeah, I should look into that probably today
<smb> I think its just missing statements in including files
<smoser> ?
<smoser> i'm confused
<smoser> the config defintely needs improving to include filesystem modules
<smoser> that is true
<hallyn> [ACTION] smb to look into kernel fs modules config for bug 732046
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smb to look into kernel fs modules config for bug 732046
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 732046 in linux (Ubuntu) "Missing filesystem modules in -virtual package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/732046
<smoser> but the larger issue is the divergence from -server, which i think is inevitable
<smb> smoser, I think the problem is that there is the config and the build modules, but I also saw some sort of use-this-for-packaging file
<smb> Maybe a bit of a leftover from having virtual not be a real falvour
<smoser> ok. well i will certainly defer to you on that.
<smoser> going forward, i would ike -vrtual to be
<hallyn> can you guys follow up on this offline then?  Sounds like there is some discussion to be had.
<smoser> a.) slimmer than -server
<smoser> b.) "just work" for as many hypervisors as possible (including built-in)
<smoser> sure.
<smoser> moving on
<hallyn> thanks.  smb, anything else, else i'll move on
<smb> I am done
<hallyn> thanks
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<hallyn> sommer is not here
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<hallyn> do we have a proxy for the community?
<ivoks> :)
<hallyn> we have a volunteer!
<kim0> hey guys
<kim0> just want to mention
<hallyn> ivoks: with natty release coming up...  anything in particular concerning you?
<kim0> that cloud days is next Wed 23-24
<kim0> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCloudDays
<ivoks> hallyn: add vlan package to CD and possibly instaled by default
<kim0> Please spread the news :)
<ttx> was wondering about the "Ubuntu Server Task Forces", should we still push that for Natty ?
<ttx> Daviey: ^ still on your radar ?
<hallyn> ivoks: wasn't there a blueprint regarding vlan?
<ivoks> s/instaled/install/
<ivoks> i'm not aware of...
<SpamapS> kim0: are there open slots for topics?
<ivoks> hallyn: i've been out of server development for some time
<kim0> SpamapS: We can always increase it
<ttx> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-server
<kim0> so yes absolutely
<Daviey> ttx, yes!
<kim0> SpamapS: what would you like to shoot
<Daviey> ttx, Will talk out of band to you.
<SpamapS> kim0: I was thinking about doing an ensemble demo.
<hallyn> SpamapS: cool!
<kim0> SpamapS: mm that would be awesome :)
<RoAkSoAx> SpamapS: indeed
<SpamapS> I'll ask the ensemble team if they'd like to be involved.
<SpamapS> kim0: will get back to you tomorrow (no need for an ACTION item ;)
<ivoks> hallyn: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-virtual-networking ?
<kim0> SpamapS: perhaps it could be two sessions .. one explaining concepts, and one a hands on demo
<ivoks> hallyn: no, that's not it... this is cloud related
<SpamapS> kim0: sure.. I like to start w/ the demo, then explain what sort of black magic we just did. ;)
 * kim0 nods
<hallyn> ivoks: but that's the one i was thinking i'm afraid
<ivoks> hallyn: issue we have is that if you install ubuntu server in an evironment where VLAN is requried to get internet access, you are in pain
<ivoks> (at least on lucid, vlan package isn't even on CD)
<SpamapS> there's a "vlan" package?
<ivoks> yes
<hallyn> ivoks: sounds like a good request for UDS-o decision?
<SpamapS> I would have thought ifconfig can handle it
<ivoks> SpamapS: vconfig
<ivoks> and ifconfig is old and obsolete
<zul> yes
<RoAkSoAx> vlan tagging is done by switches, but if you use a linux box to do vlan tagging then yes it is needed
<ivoks> hallyn: sure
<hallyn> do we have a list of server uds topics started yet, that we could add this to?
<zul> hallyn: not yet
<ivoks> we had package review every uds; i hope that didn't change :)
<zul> oh it has :)
<ivoks> it was always best fun :)
<hallyn> ok, there seems to be no good place to stash this action right now.  I'll put it in my tickler for may
 * ttx has a few ideas for universe demotin that would clear up plenty of CD space.
<hallyn> ttx: and youll be bringing those up?
<hallyn> at uds?
<ttx> hallyn: not sure that would be politically correct, but yes, I'll be there
<SpamapS> ttx: we're not getting rid of eucalyptus damnit!
<ivoks> :)
<ttx> oops.
<SpamapS> sheesh.. openstack guys think they invented post-its
 * hallyn slaps his forehead
<SpamapS> ;)
<hallyn> all right, moving on :)
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Open Discussio
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussio
<hallyn> n
<hallyn> DST is not a valid topic.  anything else?
<SpamapS> Does anyone feel that the meeting format needs some streamlining?
<hallyn> nah
<ivoks> can't tell... this is my first in a long time
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<hallyn> Tuesday, March 22 2011 16:00 UTC
<hallyn> thanks, everyone
<hallyn> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:42.
<ivoks> thank you
<SpamapS> Ok.. I hallyn nice!
<SpamapS> hahaha
<hallyn> SpamapS: ?
<SpamapS> I meant to say "I digress"
<hallyn> :)
<SpamapS> and then  hallyn: nice!
<ttx> SpamapS: your mind goes faster than your fingers.
<SpamapS> ttx: like a robot monkey w/ a new battery
<hallyn> that's bc he keeps getting marshmellows stuck in his keys
<hallyn> (sorry, got the munchies)
<kim0> SpamapS: It would be great if you can write a getting-started page describing how ensemble formulas interact, in a way a newbie can understand. I'll be happy to help with that also
<SpamapS> kim0: indeed.. thats on the list for sure. :)
<kim0> awesome :)
<JayFo> \o/
<apw> o/
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<smb> o/
<herton> o/
<JFo> o/
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>   * The Kernel team has a new ARM developer.
<bjf>   * The existing MVL Dove regression has been resolved and a new package will be uploaded.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (9 bugs, 9 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Beta 1 Milestoned Bugs (104 across all packages (down 2)) ====
<JFo>  * 8 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (293 across all packages (down 11)) ====
<JFo>  * 22 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 7 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Maverick Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 71 Linux Bugs (up 2)
<JFo> ==== Lucid Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 94 Linux Bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:80 (up 1) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> * Andy and I will review the remaining items to see if any will be postponed.
<JFo> Additionally, I will be finishing up several that have been put off of completion
<JFo> due to other priorities taking precedence.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: General Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: General Natty (apw)
<apw> The natty kernel is now at v2.6.38-6.34 (v2.6.38-rc8 based).  We have had some instability due to compiler changes from Linaro, but seem to be coming out the other side.  v2.6.38 dropped today and kernels are in test prior to upload.  We remain concentrated on bug squashing for Natty.  One area of concern is an interaction between vesafb and drmfb during boot, in some cases we are triggering gpu hangs; a prototype startup wherein we load vesafb later
<apw> is in test.  We are closing in on Beta-1 freeze which is a week on thursday.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf>  * This week is the start of yet another stable kernel release cycle. I'm in the process of getting git repos in shape and packages put together.
<bjf> .
<bjf>  * A request for feedback has gone out regarding the kernel SRU workflow. The proposal can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/kernel-sru-workflow
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || dapper   linux-source-2.6.15               || 2.6.15-55.93         || 2.6.15-57.94         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.15.56            || 2.6.15.57            ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.15    || 2.6.15-55.13         || 2.6.15-57.15         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || hardy    linux-meta                        || 2.6.24.28.30         || 2.6.24.29.31         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.24-28.86         || 2.6.24-29.87         ||    1 ||        1 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || karmic   linux-ec2                         || 2.6.31-307.27        || 2.6.31-308.28        ||    2 ||        2 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.31.22.18         || 2.6.31.23.19         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.31-22.73         || 2.6.31-23.74         ||    1 ||        1 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.31    || 2.6.31-22.24         || 2.6.31-23.25         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.31.22.35         || 2.6.31.23.36         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-ec2                    || 2.6.31.307.6         || 2.6.31.308.7         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || lucid    linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.32.29.22         || 2.6.32.30.23         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    || 2.6.32-211.27        || 2.6.32-214.30        ||   20 ||       20 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               || 2.6.32.209.12        || 2.6.32.214.15        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.32    || 2.6.32-29.28         || 2.6.32-30.29         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.34.4               || 1.34.7               ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.32-29.58         || 2.6.32-30.59         ||    3 ||        3 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-fsl-imx51                   || 2.6.31-608.22        || 2.6.31-608.25        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.32.29.35         || 2.6.32.30.36         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || maverick linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.35.27.21         || 2.6.35.28.21         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    ||                      || 2.6.32-414.30        ||    9 ||        9 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               ||                      || 2.6.32.414.4         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.38.4               || 1.38.5               ||    1 ||        1 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.35-27.48         || 2.6.35-28.49         ||    4 ||        4 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.35    || 2.6.35-27.18         || 2.6.35-28.19         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.35.27.35         || 2.6.35.28.36         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: HW Cert. Team  (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: HW Cert. Team  (ara)
<ara> Hello!
<ara> This week we finised testing both the Maverick and the Lucid kernel. Results are publicly available:
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/lucid-proposed.html
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/maverick-proposed.html
<ara> All the 75 systems passed the SRU tests (the minor errors are problems with the script themselves).
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/lucid-proposed.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/wk10_2011/maverick-proposed.html
<ara> So, from our side, they are good to go.
<ara> We updated the tracking bugs with this information as well.
<ara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo>  297 Natty Bugs (up 72)
<JFo>  1218 Maverick Bugs (up 18)
<JFo>  1034 Lucid Bugs (up 3)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 40 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 74 lucid bugs (down 2)
<JFo>   * 7 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 131 natty bugs (up 37)
<JFo>   * 240 maverick bugs (up 6)
<JFo>   * 221 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 38 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 5 natty bugs (up 4)
<JFo>   * 0 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 lucid bugs (up 1)
<JFo>   * 0 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Last week's bug day was a success. We had several individuals helping to triage
<JFo> new state bugs and we got a number of them triaged and into the proper status.
<JFo> The next bug day will be next Tuesday. The focus will be on bugs in the confirmed state.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> There is always tremendous interest in having me look at a particular bug here and there.
<JFo> I am stillworking to get these interested parties to approach me in the pulblic channel
<JFo> versus currently getting pinged in private windows.
<JFo> We have had some further interest in working bugs from individuals geared toward beginning
<JFo> device driver and module work. As much as it pains me, we had to explain that bugs were
<JFo> likely not the best way to go to get into module development. :-)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> welcome back ogasawara !!!
<ogasawara> :)
<JFo> woo hoo!!!
<JFo> :)
<cking> yay
<smb> \o/
<ara> ogasawara, welcome back!
<apw> :)
<Sarvatt> \o/ welcome back!
<apw> we can all take a vaction now
<ppisati> hi :)
<JFo> oh thank god
 * JFo passes out
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:10.
<JFo> thanks bjf
<ara> thanks bjf
<JanC> will there be a loco-council meeting?
<JanC> czajkowski: ^^^ ?
<czajkowski> JanC: on a podcast!
<czajkowski> with popey
<czajkowski> 4 others not here...
<JanC> czajkowski: let me know when the meeting gets rescheduled?  âº
<czajkowski> next month
<huats> am I late ?
<huats> I am sure I am...
<huats> sorry about that
<YoBoY> huats: seems everyone was late, meeting rescheduled next month
<huats> YoBoY, oh... thanks :)
<YoBoY> de rien prÃ©sident :)
<khrm> Good. I am going to sleep. Its 3am here
<huats> I am going to eat  then :)
<khrm> G'night.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-03-16
<mvo> hello
<robbiew> o/
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Apologies
<MootBot> New Topic:  Apologies
<robbiew> barry, ev, and doko are at PyCon
<robbiew> so "might" show up
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> jhunt_?
<jhunt_> Updated Upstart vim syntax and sent to vim.org upstream. Fixed "make
<jhunt_> distcheck" bug with upstream Upstart. Investigating D-Bus issues in
<jhunt_> chroot environments. Fixed bug 734736. Working on Upstart intro doc (not
<jhunt_> published yet). Lots of Upstart branch massaging between upstream and
<jhunt_> ubuntu branch with help from cjwatson and eventually got visualisation
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 734736 in portmap (Ubuntu) "portmap does not advertise upstart event emission" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/734736
<jhunt_> feature for Upstart pushed out (we saw a buildd failure which I'm
<jhunt_> still investigating). Investigating chroot issues (bug 728531). Working
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 728531 in upstart "chroot support is not reliable" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/728531
<jhunt_> on bug 735805.
<jhunt_> EOT
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 735805 in gdm (Ubuntu) "GDM fails to start" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/735805
<jhunt_> Think I might now have resolved 735805.
 * jhunt_ crosses everything :)
<psurbhi> jhunt: the vim support sounds cool! :)
<cjwatson> if you upgrade it's in natty :)
<jhunt_> yeah - we have the support in the natty vim-runtime now although the upstream is more up-to-date (I'm working on the apt-get source update to our pkg).
<psurbhi> nice!
<jhunt_> we also have bash completion for initctl :)
<robbiew> jhunt_: how severe is bug 728531 for Ubuntu?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 728531 in upstart "chroot support is not reliable" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/728531
<psurbhi> cool!
<robbiew> I realize it's "Low" for Upstart project
<psurbhi> heh
<psurbhi> :D
<robbiew> jhunt_: skaet was asking me yesterday, and I wasn't sure
<jhunt_> robbiew: well, it basically doesn't appear to work at all reliably. I'm unsure what sort of audience would need this facility.
<jhunt_> when I say reliably, it doesn't crash or anything - it just gives unexpected results.
<robbiew> whoops...sorry
<jhunt_> part of the problem is that working in the chroot env gives its own set of problems wrt debugging, building upstart and d-bus.
<robbiew> jhunt_: so it doesn't affect our PPAs or anything, right?
<robbiew> basically trying to determine if this is release critical...seems like it's not
<cjwatson> audience> would be nice to get rid of the gross hack in openssh
<cjwatson> (we have special arrangements there to keep the old init script around as well, so that people can run openssh in chroots, which is a fairly common use case)
<jhunt_> well, I don't know what upstart is used for in the ppas? I think that before the feature was added /sbin/initctl was just a link to /bin/true so that might be the fallback :)
<cjwatson> Launchpad build daemons won't be affected by this
<cjwatson> as you say, they stub things out to ensure that daemons are never started during build
<robbiew> ack
<robbiew> thnx
<cjwatson> I expect that would remain the case even after upstart chroot support works
<cjwatson> chroot sessions are for users trying to run server environments in chroots
<robbiew> ack...so if we get LXC solid, then who needs em!
<robbiew> j/k
<robbiew> moving on...
<robbiew> thnx jhunt_
<jhunt_> np
<robbiew> mvo?
<mvo> apt-clone: make dpkg-repack option, simplify commandline interface (argparse ftw), work on restore --simulate
<mvo> apt: debug/fix bug in mirror method when selecting the next mirror, debug/fix bug where apt prompts for the CDROM on each update, merge debian work, fix some issues in the cdrom/udev automount code
<mvo> rnr-server: bug triage/prioritizing, push lp:~mvo/rnr-server/trivial-test-fail-fix, work on the production instance testing
<mvo> Software-center: branch review, create test-case that can trigger DatabaseCorruptError, debug #731724, found in libgl1-mesa-glx, debug hang in --measure-startuptime (inconclusive), fix incorrect stats for utf-8 appnames (e.g. dejadup), fix locking issue with the threaded db query code, update rnrclient to the latest upstream revision and fix the code, upload new version
<mvo> Update-manager: fix changelog download when there is no network (#19372), work on usb-based upgrades
<mvo> update-notifier: fix upgrade from usb-sticks
<mvo> misc: release-meeting (prepared a bit too much probably :)
<mvo> (done9
<mvo> )
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> psurbhi: ?
<psurbhi> *) analysed the scripts in local-bottom/ and init-bottom/
<psurbhi> *) Added upstart scripts to execute the local-bottom scripts followed by the init-bottom for now. Added an upstart script for moving the sys and proc fs to the newly mounted rootfs after the execution of the current local-bottom. Converted the moving of devfs to new rootfs as a part of the post-stop for udevd upstart job.
<psurbhi> *) worked with RaphaÃ«l Pinson on the patch for bug 654545.
<psurbhi> *) worked on mdadm bug: wrote two patches for the same bug - one patch to stop the arrays found in /proc/mdstat beore trying the --assemble --scan --run code path. The other patch to just go ahead and start an md array when there is no member device found. Sent both the patches to Neil Brown. For now, its much safe to have the first patch (stopping arrays) as a SAUCE patch in mdadm for natty.
<psurbhi> *) worked on samba bug: 526464. went through the ntlmssp authentication code path, wireshark and log output. Waiting for the wireshark output (linux-side)
<psurbhi> (DONE)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 654545 in mountall (Ubuntu) "mountall does not honor nobootwait flag on /var/* and /usr/* filesystems" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654545
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 526464 in samba (Ubuntu) "intermittent authentication: check_ntlm_password: Authentication for user [someuser] -> [someuser] FAILED with error NT_STATUS_ACCESS_DENIED" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/526464
<robbiew> thnx psurbhi
<robbiew> cjwatson: ?
<cjwatson> done: wubi bug-fix of death, new localechooser (supports some more languages - Telugu folks were asking about it), sponsored new upstart, fixed some fatal ubiquity bugs, finished getting merges.ubuntu.com working again
<cjwatson> todo: review apw's graphics reorganisation, bigger-than-usual pass over release-meeting bugs
<cjwatson> --
<robbiew> "wubi bug-fix of death"
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty
<robbiew> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<cjwatson> we've had a fair bit of installer instability.  as of tomorrow it should at least work, but that does mean we've been light on testing for a while
<robbiew> burndown looks good...as expected
<robbiew> cjwatson: ack
<robbiew> yeah.../me is glad we don't have a bug burndown :/
<cjwatson> also http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<mvo> I'm on the dpkg ordering problem stuff currently (just fyi)
<robbiew> in terms of bugs we do have - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-03-11#Foundations
<robbiew> http://www.sadtrombone.com
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.sadtrombone.com
<doko> hi
<robbiew> doko: oh...hey
<robbiew> any status you want to relay?
<cjwatson> jhunt_: can bug 723846 be closed now?  I realise that there's more to be done, but the features have landed AIUI
<doko> @PyCon, but more working on porting issues :-/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 723846 in upstart (Ubuntu Natty) "Feature Freeze Exception request for Upstart in Natty" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/723846
<jhunt_> I think so, yes (although, we still don't have tests for some of keybuks branches).
<cjwatson> right - but that isn't feature freeze exception material
<cjwatson> (at this point)
<jhunt_> sure
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Oneiric
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric
<robbiew> I'll try to get a wiki page up for ideas
<robbiew> by next week, hopefully
<robbiew> will make another pass through N blueprints too...the ones we deferred due to lack of resources/time
<cjwatson> do we have a sense yet of what's coming down from on high
<cjwatson> ?
<cjwatson> we got off lightly last time, I'm sort of assuming it won't last
<robbiew> heh
<mvo> apt-mirror method by default would be nice
<robbiew> both jasonwarner and I are gathering internal requirements and allison is going to help lead a call for community requirements
<mvo> but yeah, next week is early enough to put ideas in
<psurbhi> can we have delta debian uploads for updates?
<psurbhi> delta.deb
<robbiew> funny you ask...mvo and I chatted about that
<robbiew> we can at least discuss it :D
<mvo> this will need some integration work with apt, but it would definitely be a good idea
<psurbhi> yeah
<cjwatson> debdelta or similar would be most excellent; we tried before and it got stalled
<jhunt_> cjwatson: +1000 !
<robbiew> would need some LP love too, right?
<cjwatson> somebody motivated to deal with the infrastructural side of things could make a seriously beneficial dent here
<cjwatson> right
<robbiew> jml and flacoste will be at UDS...we can corner them there ;)
<mvo> yeah, the server side
<cjwatson> (well, in principle you could do it with a separate server, but I suspect that wouldn't fly - it would be OK for experimentation)
<robbiew> hmm...yeah, we could at least test client-side implementation with that approach
<robbiew> anyway...definitely need to look into that
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/GoodNews?
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/GoodNews?
<cjwatson> what a depressive bunch you all are
<psurbhi> heh
<cjwatson> I haven't booted Windows for a whole four days
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> I think I've figured out how to pronounce Oneiric
<robbiew> not sure if I know how to spell it though
<robbiew> lol
 * doko is still using o-series
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> okie dokie
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:36.
<robbiew> thnx all
<mvo> thanks!
 * mvo goes back to bug triage
<psurbhi> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-03-17
<ogra> froop
<rsalveti> mooo
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110317
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110317
<janimo> hello
 * davidm waves
<NCommander> [topic] Action Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to build mono stack by hand and confirm 2.10 fixes mono regression
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to build mono stack by hand and confirm 2.10 fixes mono regression
<NCommander> Done both by builoding from source, and reusing Ubuntu binaries. Appears our regression still in 2.10
<janimo> why is it called a regression, when did it work?
<NCommander> janimo: it works on UMP machines. Its a regression in functinality :-P
<janimo> ah, a bug :)
<GrueMaster> In truth, it only recently started working on Single Core.
<janimo> that is progression then
<GrueMaster> It's only a regression if it worked before.
<janimo> anyway I was curious, it may have worked while built for armv5 or something
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra
<NCommander> damn it
<rsalveti> ops
<janimo> you scared him
 * NCommander waits to see if ogra returns
<NCommander> ogra: 11:06:05 < MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to determine if mono still crashes on  tegra
<ogra_> oh how i hate freenode
<ogra_> mono works fine
<ogra_> at least tomboy does, havent had time to test anything else yet
<NCommander> ogra_: please test with f-spot when you get a chance :-)
<ogra_> sure
<GrueMaster> Tomboy has always worked.  Not a valid test.
<ogra_> valid for the above task :P
<ogra_> mono doesnt crash :P
<GrueMaster> No it isn't.
<GrueMaster> Tomboy works on panda too.  Not a valid test.
<ogra_> the task doesnt talk about which apps :P
<ogra_> anyway, move on, i'll test f-spot
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<rsalveti> beta-1 should look better soon
<rsalveti> I moved by gles WI to beta 2, as there's nothing I can do about it
<rsalveti> need to wait linaro work and see if it'll be possible to hit the archive
<GrueMaster> Beta 2?
<rsalveti> but probably something to be postponed soon, if no good progress is made
<ogra_> yep
<GrueMaster> ENO Beta 2 on my schedule.
<ogra_> sure there is
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: beta 2 is the new RC
<ogra_> there is no milestone in the WI tracker though
<ogra_> neither a RC one
<GrueMaster> Hmmm.  Must have changed just after I posted teh schedule on my wall.
<ogra_> april 14th
<GrueMaster> Ah, ok.
<ogra_> there is a releaseCandidate milestone on the schedule
<ogra_> just no image it seems
<ogra_> (april 21st)
<ogra_> anyway, nothing to see, if the gles stuff moves we look quite fine
<ogra_> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D Status
<ogra_> weird :)
<GrueMaster> I'll add the headless images to the iso tracker during the next milestone testing (next week).
<ogra_> uploaded latest trunk this week and we found a very very strange bug
<rsalveti> number?
<rsalveti> or not reported yet?
<ogra_> not reported, upstream works on it actively
<rsalveti> oh, ok
<ogra_> if you build locally the icon backgrounds are properly colored
<ogra_> if you use the package from the archive they are grey
<rsalveti> hm, weir
<rsalveti> weird
<ogra_> the source is identical, the build deps too
<ogra_> there is no real explanation why that happens but it makes the launcher look ugly
<davidm> Are the icons actually different?
<ogra_> beyond that, we have a beta buglist from upstream
<ogra_> https://launchpad.net/unity-2d/+milestone/3.8
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 3 in Launchpad itself "Custom information for each translation team" [Low,Fix released]
<ogra_> i will add that to the weekly release status
<ogra_> silly bot :P
<ogra_> davidm, it happens on the same system if you just replace the unity-2d-panel package with a locally built one
<GrueMaster> Is there a way we could get more frequent build releases?  They have a daily ppa, but it is x86 only.
<ogra_> so the icons are identical
<rsalveti> hm, quite many high and critical bugs
<ogra_> GrueMaster, the maverick daily ppa is armel too
<ogra_> rsalveti, they say all should be fixed by beta
<rsalveti> cool
<ogra_> also note that the majority of these bugs is already fix committed
<GrueMaster> Beta is next week btw.
<ogra_> yes
<ogra_> no
<ogra_> beta freeze is
<ogra_> beta is in two
 * GrueMaster needs to clean glasses.
<ogra_> i mix them up too all the time ;)
<ogra_> we'll get a last upload right before freeze
<ogra_> then the list should only have high and critical bugs left
<ogra_> which can be fixed between the two betas
<NCommander> can I move on?
<ogra_> yes
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<rsalveti> currently for omap 4 we're already using 38, but with DVI
<rsalveti> sebjan send a branch with new DVI patches and HDMI support!
<rsalveti> \o/
 * ogra_ saw some alsa stuff pass by in his bugmail
<ogra_> GrueMaster, ^^^
<GrueMaster> Yep.
<ogra_> any comment from luke yet ?
<GrueMaster> None.
<ogra_> :(
<rsalveti> should be similar as we had for maverick, not fully functional yet, lots of conflicts but should be integrated at our tree soon
<ogra_> rsalveti, please tell me if i can drop the cmdline option
<rsalveti> so I believe that with our next upload we can switch back to hdmi as default again
<ogra_> 720p looks so odd on my monitor ;P
<rsalveti> ogra_: sure
<GrueMaster> that would be nice.
<GrueMaster> Will hdmi support have a better default resolution?
<rsalveti> and I'm working at the pvr kernel driver to have sgx again with 38
<ogra_> ++
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: will try to use the best supported one from the monitor
<rsalveti> like maverick
<GrueMaster> Maverick didn't like my HDMI switch.
<ogra_> GrueMaster, for DVI i just picked the lowest that all DVI monitors should support
<rsalveti> but I believe it should be better this time
<ogra_> it could have been 1080p
<rsalveti> that's the problem I have with EDID support at omap 3
<ogra_> but i wanted to make sure i dont trash it on cheap monitors
<rsalveti> highest and best resolution is 720p
<rsalveti> edid detection is only nice to have in case the monitor doesn't support 720p
<ogra_> yup
<GrueMaster> A lot of dvi monitors don't.
<rsalveti> cool, nice to know, never saw one
<ogra_> 1280x720 ?
 * ogra_ never saw one either
<GrueMaster> I had one that was 1024x768.
<GrueMaster> 15"
<ogra_> hmm, i would have expected if there is DVI it would do 720p
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: do you still have it?
<GrueMaster> No.
<GrueMaster> It died a while ago.
<ogra_> from using a beagle ubuntu image on it ?
<ogra_> *g*
<GrueMaster> No, it died before arm.
<ogra_> ah
 * ogra_ guesses NCommander can move
<rsalveti> yup
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<janimo> some slow progress, some package fixes. some give-backs
<janimo> nothing unusual
 * ogra_ poked on telepathy-glib, would be good if someone could identify the root cause
<janimo> the kde ones still need GL/GLES fix
<NCommander> mono remains broken. Going to take some time out and doing normal FTBFS work before returning to that
<ogra_> i only added a quick workaround
<janimo> others still waiting for a faster build machine
<NCommander> janimo: which GL/GLES fix?
<ogra_> scribus-ng looks like a finger training in qreal fixing
<janimo> NCommander, rewrites is more adequate
<janimo> Qt uses GLES on ARM
<rsalveti> NCommander: need to change the packages that uses GL
<rsalveti> janimo: I plan to work on this
<janimo> some KDE apps hardcode desktop GL API
<janimo> which is not present on GLES
<rsalveti> probably at the weekend
<rsalveti> let me know if you jump on it
<janimo> rsalveti, I also had a look. Gto intimidated by the large change that GLES 2.0 vs desktop GL 1.X (which KDE uses) is
<Riddell> janimo: you're talking about e.g. koffice?
<ScottK> There's others too.
<janimo> Riddell, yes, and screeensavers, edu (algebra), etc
<rsalveti> it shuoldn't be that big
<janimo> I know some people work on this already
<ScottK> I think avogadro too.
<rsalveti> yup
<ogra_> yep
<rsalveti> everything that uses avogadro and glew
<janimo> a proper fix is either GLES port so ifdef on GL/GLES or using entirely Qt abstractions which make things slower and probably less flexible
<janimo> same thing needed for mumble and mythtv
<rsalveti> janimo: just disable GL when available
<janimo> all upstreams I think are aware of this but it takes time
<rsalveti> proper fix should come from upstream probably next cycle
<rsalveti> linaro is working to get gles support at glew
<janimo> right
<rsalveti> kwin should support gles for kde 4.7
<rsalveti> and a few others
<janimo> right, but still non-GLEW APIs are used a lot
<rsalveti> yup
<Riddell> kunal and I are looking at packaging the kwin with gles for natty
<janimo> many apps would need to include libmatrix or a similar lib to compensate for lack of matrix operations in GLES aPI
<janimo> so not just a few ifdefs but real refactoring rewrite which upstream is more in a position to do than us
<rsalveti> yes
<rsalveti> Riddell: packaging it separately from kde?
<Riddell> rsalveti: yes
<rsalveti> Riddell: I know linaro is planning to have it at least at a ppa
<rsalveti> would be good to have it on natty
<rsalveti> but then needs a ffe
<janimo> are the pandas making it before natty in the build center or do we stick with the handful of FTBFS because of timeouts and their reverse deps
<rsalveti> davidm: ^?
<davidm> Sorry
<GrueMaster> janimo: How many packages in main are affected?
 * janimo just looked. Only 77 unity-2d bugs targeted at beta. Piece of cake
<janimo> GrueMaster, nothing in main afaik, so it is not critical
<NCommander> (to prevent going over, I think we need to take this offline and move on)
<ogra_> GrueMaster, see the ftbfs list ;)
<janimo> right, move on
<ogra_> janimo, rthe good thing is that we dont need to work on them ;)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<janimo> ogra_, we may need to if we don't want a crashy U-2d on arm :)
<ogra_> netbook looks fine again since today
<davidm> The panda buildd might make it I just got some PO's for parts but I'm not sure, I still have more to do
<davidm> weeks yet
<ogra_> headless requires more research about the oem-config bug
<ogra_> once thats done we need to find out why we edn up without user
<ogra_> beyond that all is fine atm
<ogra_> NCommander, move unless there are questions
<GrueMaster> I would switch the priority there.  Not having user is worse than not having serial oem-config.
<ogra_> well, i want to have both fixed
<GrueMaster> And the netbook images are looking good so far, except jasper doesn't transfer dvi settings past first boot.
<ogra_> both are high prio
<ogra_> oh ?
<ogra_> it should
<GrueMaster> I'm looking at a 640x480 GDM login.
<ogra_> file a bug, assign me
<GrueMaster> Yep.
<ogra_> but you had 720p on first boot ?
<GrueMaster> yes
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> is the plymouth bug fixed already ?
<GrueMaster> no.
 * ogra_ hasnt tested netbook for a while
<ogra_> bah
<GrueMaster> We haven't had netbook for a while to test plymouth.
<ogra_> works fine with the text theme
<ogra_> so i think its not our fault and not arch specific
 * NCommander moves on
<NCommander> [topic]QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic: QA Status (GrueMaster)
<ogra_> seems he drowned in bugs :)
<GrueMaster> Ooops.  Was on the panda.
<GrueMaster> Working on clearing up old bugs still.
<GrueMaster> Also working on getting command-not-found fixed for armel (and all of ports).
 * ogra_ finds it funny that he thinks he remembers it worked in maverick
<GrueMaster> Tested a UCM patch for alsa-lib yesterday.  Looks ok (doesn't break anything).
<GrueMaster> ogra_: It has never fully worked on ports.
<ogra_> yeah
<GrueMaster> The way it generates it's data is by crawling the pool of .debs.
<ogra_> thats why i find it weird
<GrueMaster> What we get is arch=all.
<GrueMaster> So some of it works.
<ogra_> i would have sworn iu saw it working but i know its impossible
<ogra_> ah
<ogra_> then i only tried on arch all packages possibly
<GrueMaster> Going forward, it looks like bugs that affect our team and that we need to take ownership will temporarily be assigned to canonical-arm.
<ogra_> as long as we dont lose the subscription :)
<GrueMaster> At least until we can figure out a better way to track bugs we need to be responsible for.
<GrueMaster> That will be added as part of my triage process.  :)
<GrueMaster> Bugs that we are interested in, but owned by other teams (linaro) will still have ubuntu-armel-porters subscribed.
<ogra_> yup, thats the point
<GrueMaster> I hope by next meeting that http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html will be accurate for us.
<GrueMaster> Right now it appears blank.
<ogra_> weird, i thought it is generated hourly
<ogra_> it should already pick up the ones you assigned
<GrueMaster> It should also have bugs assigned to individuals of that team.
<ogra_> yeah
<GrueMaster> Not sure why it is blank.  May be a glitch in the scripts or timing.
<ogra_> bdmurray might know
<GrueMaster> Yep.  Meeting with him & the rest of the possie tomorrow.
<ogra_> great
 * GrueMaster is done.
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<NCommander> if nothing else
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> three times
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:58.
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<knome> hallo!
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:02. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<charlie-tca> this is the regularly scheduled Xubuntu Community Meeting
<mr_pouit> hey
<charlie-tca> the full agenda is always available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old Business
<charlie-tca> ask knome to do some drafts with a grey background and a black background
<charlie-tca> any progress on this one?
<knome> not really, but i'll work on those today or tomorrow
<pleia2> thanks knome :)
<knome> as i've said a few times lately, i've been dead busy with commercial work
<charlie-tca> Thank you, knome
<knome> no problem
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates
<knome> pleia2, can you get back on me tomorrow @#shimmer or so?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: your turn?
<pleia2> knome: sure
<mr_pouit> * As usual, uploaded fixes for xubuntu-default-settings and xubuntu-artwork.
<mr_pouit> * Uploaded fixes to correctly display translated desktop file names in Thunar and Xfdesktop4.
<mr_pouit> * Some bugfix in garcon as well.
<knome> pleia2, thanks. i definitely hope i'll have more time tomorrow for FOSS work
<mr_pouit> * Included more mimetypes in xfburn.desktop to make lubuntu happy.
<charlie-tca> Thank you, mr_pouit. Your efforts are really appreciated!
<mr_pouit> (and I'll need the full-sized wallpapers to include them in the xubuntu-wallpapers package ;p)
<charlie-tca> We will decide that one today, and get them to you
<charlie-tca> Anything else for Packaging and Development?
<mr_pouit> nope, that's all
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca> Images were broken all week, the alternate image installs great!
<charlie-tca> Any questions?
<knome> any specific reasons for being broken?
<charlie-tca> um, something with the partitioner
<knome> rright... so were the ubuntu images broken as well?
<charlie-tca> yup
<knome> okay
<knome> good to know
<charlie-tca> sorry, all desktop images were broken this week
<Sysi> ubiquity is buggy
<charlie-tca> alternate was hit and miss, for the most part
<charlie-tca> We think it is fixed today, but will know if tomorrows images work
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca> any updates?
<pleia2> no, still waiting on canonical to set up wordpress
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
<charlie-tca> now this is harder
<charlie-tca> I made a serious mistake in not verifying the licenses of the wallpaper submissions
<charlie-tca> At this point, I have two we were supposed to vote on. One is licensed cc-by-sa, unfortunately, it contains images licensed cc-by-nc-sa
<charlie-tca> That has to carry forward to the wallpaper
<charlie-tca> We can not use that wallpaper
<beardygnome> which one was that charlie-tca?
<charlie-tca> I am declaring the wallpaper submitted by knome the winner today!
<charlie-tca> The man with umbrella is unusable because of the license
<charlie-tca> To refresh memories, the wallpaper are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Natty
<beardygnome> doesn't xubuntu count as nc?
<charlie-tca> knome did a lot of work on his, but to keep the contest fair, those changes are not reflected on that page. The final wallpaper is at:
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/nattywall/draft3e.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/nattywall/draft3e.png
<knome> (which i'm preparing for packaging right now)
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: no, we don't count as non-commercial
<Sysi> will you note the author of that wallpaper?
<beardygnome> knome: i like the new version very much!
<charlie-tca> yes, I will
<knome> beardygnome, thanks
<charlie-tca> now, also, on the artwork page is three images that took two votes each. One of those is copyrighted by the author, "all rights reserved".
<charlie-tca> That is also a complication for us, since it would then have to be reassigned to canonical
<charlie-tca> therefore, we now have three wallpapers. knome's will be the default
<charlie-tca> I can only include one more on the cd, so we will vote on earth or dolphins.
<charlie-tca> I would like to keep this simple, so I am not using VOTE
<knome> or vote and -1 is for other and +1 fo the other ?
<charlie-tca> please designate either earth or dolphins to be included as a wallpaper for Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> vote now, and we will count the votes manually.
<knome> EARTH
<charlie-tca> dolphins
 * micahg likes both :(
<charlie-tca> one vote only
<mr_pouit> earth
<beardygnome> dolphins
<drc> charlie-tca: can new-comers vote or just members?
<micahg> earth\
<charlie-tca> anyone helping with xubuntu can vote.
<charlie-tca> go ahead, Sysi and drc
<Sysi> dolphins
<drc> Dolphins
<pleia2> earth
<micahg> 4/4
<charlie-tca> I count that as 4 and 4
<charlie-tca> Is there anyone wishing to cast a vote?
<beardygnome> me too
<charlie-tca> As Project Lead, I will then break the vote and throw it to earth
<beardygnome> but micahg  likes both, so can that be 5-4 to dolphins :-)
<micahg> charlie-tca, weird, you voted for dolphins
<knome> haha
<knome> ;)
<charlie-tca> It will be EARTH, I will inform the artist we need the full size image
<knome> solidarity?
<knome> hihi
<knome> charlie-tca, are the licenses okay? :P
<charlie-tca> such things happen
<charlie-tca> yes
<knome> okay, good
<charlie-tca> It is fully public domain and cc-by-sa
<charlie-tca> I want to thank every artist for their work, apologize for the license issue
<charlie-tca> I don't have any other announcements.
<charlie-tca> I did not get any work done on the Strategy document proposal.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> go ahead, micahg
<micahg> we should be getting a new gmusicbrowser version (1.1.7) next week, if people can test, that would be great
<charlie-tca> That is great!
<beardygnome> micahg: will it be in the maverick ppa?
<micahg> beardygnome, do we have a maverick PPA?
<charlie-tca> Also, anyone that can test the installs, we really need to verify things are working, along with the applications
<pleia2> speaking of testing, the Global Jam is coming up in a couple weeks https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam - my loco team will be doing some xubuntu testing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Testing
<knome> ubiquity slideshow is coming together
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: as far as I know, yes, it will hit maverick ppa
<pleia2> charlie-tca: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing up to date?
<knome> we had a soft deadline today, but we're postponing that to sunday, so translators could start their work on monday
<charlie-tca> pleia2: I forgot
<beardygnome> i had a comment about the natty live iso
<charlie-tca> yes, beardygnome ?
<beardygnome> the menu screen where you choose to inall or run as live uses the old xubuntu logo and font
<charlie-tca> it does?
<beardygnome> *install*
<beardygnome> well, it did a week or so ago
<charlie-tca> well, yeah
<charlie-tca> I don't know if it still does, but can you file a bug for that if you get to it before me?
<beardygnome> i've been meaning to mention it on the ml
<beardygnome> so i'll do that now
<charlie-tca> the partitioner page changed again, you now have the ability to upgrade instead of doing a new installation
<mr_pouit> beardygnome: you mean, when you select the language, and whether you want to install or run without installing?
<beardygnome> yes
<beardygnome> it's the first thing you see when you boot from the cd
<mr_pouit> yeah, it's still the old pre-lucid greater
<mr_pouit> *greeter
<charlie-tca> Can we fix it ?
<mr_pouit> there's a new one for the other variant (ubuntu/kubuntu), and I don't know why xubuntu doesn't use it
<charlie-tca> or do we not have that update yet?
<mr_pouit> I filed a bug against ubiquity a few weeks ago, got no response
<charlie-tca> bug number?
<charlie-tca> I will push the installer team
<mr_pouit> let me some time to find it :p
<charlie-tca> okay. anything else we want to discuss?
<charlie-tca> anyone?
<charlie-tca> Reminder:  UDS-O is coming up
<charlie-tca> anyone can submit for sponsorship to Budapest! Applications are due in by March 29
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: Bug 720652
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 720652 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[Xubuntu] maybe-ubiquity/new greeter support" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/720652
<charlie-tca> We will have another meeting next week, March 24, at 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> Thank you, mr_pouit. I will try to get that fixed
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for participating in Xubuntu!
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> go ahead, micahg
<mr_pouit> I didn't try really hard. I filed the bug not to forget to push people about that, and I forgot =]
<micahg> oh, nm, was going to mention beta freeze next thursday, but that only applies to main
<micahg> UIF next thursday does matter though :)
<mr_pouit> micahg: I think it applies to <anything seeded or on ISOs> ;-)
<charlie-tca> We do have UserInterfaceFreeze next Thursday, too
<micahg> mr_pouit, ah, you're correct :), so it
<micahg> s worth mentioning :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks for the reminder, micahg
<charlie-tca> Let's then end this meeting, and get some work done?
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:37.
<knome> thanks everybody
 * greg-g waves
 * pleia2 waves
 * ddecator waves
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-03-18
 * Unit193 waves
<pleia2> just trying to get quorum and then we'll start the americas board meeting :)
 * ddecator crosses fingers that it happens this time
 * Amaranth looks around
 * iheartubuntu has arrived
<pleia2> just waiting for one more board member
<jcastro> DBO: woo!
<pleia2> ok, we have quorum :)
<ddecator> :)
<beuno> sorry I'm late
<beuno> (I have no good excuse!)
<nhandler> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:13. The chair is nhandler.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nhandler> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for Thursday, March 17. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<nhandler> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<nhandler> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<nhandler> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<nhandler> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<nhandler> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<nhandler> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<nhandler> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<nhandler> [TOPIC] geeknik
<MootBot> New Topic:  geeknik
<pleia2> doesn't seem to be around
<nhandler> I just sent him a PM
<nhandler> If he shows up, we can come back to him
<nhandler> [TOPIC] matthewrohaly
<MootBot> New Topic:  matthewrohaly
<nhandler> Ah, here is geeknik
<nhandler> [TOPIC] geeknik
<MootBot> New Topic:  geeknik
<nhandler> geeknik: Care to introduce yourself?
<geeknik> Hi. My name is Brian, I'm a 34 year old computer geek from Oklahoma. I just got back from San Francisco and was just hired by OpenDNS.com. I've been a Linux user since 1995.
<geeknik> I'm also an Android kernel hacker and Firefox developer.
<nhandler> geeknik: I notice you contribute to firefox, any plans to get involved with the Ubuntu mozilla team?
<DBO> im here
<geeknik> I haven't really thought about that, but I'm sure I could lend some expertise to the team. =)
<DBO> crap
<nhandler> DBO: We are not up to you yet (we started late)
<DBO> wooo
<ddecator> the mozilla team could always use extra help :)
<nhandler> :)
<nhandler> geeknik: Have you done any LoCo work?
<geeknik> No, I have not.
<greg-g> geeknik: is there one relatively near you?
<geeknik> There does seem to be an Oklahoma LoCo team, according to the website.
<geeknik> It's based in Tulsa, about 2 hours NE of where I live now.
<greg-g> yep, and a channel at #ubuntu-us-ok
<pleia2> geeknik: your wiki page doesn't have a lot of detail, are there any specific teams in ubuntu you work with?
<greg-g> geeknik: is there any direct to Ubuntu contribution you can point me toward?
<geeknik> I haven't worked directly with any teams unfortunately.
<beuno> geeknik, hi
<beuno> it looks like you're off to a good start
<geeknik> I have submitted some bugs to Launchpad, I believe a couple might still be open. Most of my work with Ubuntu has been local tech support and advocacy. =)
<greg-g> geeknik: so, I can see that you have a ton of experience in Firefox and linux in general, but I would love to see some more direct to Ubuntu contributions, say, with the Mozilla team
<geeknik> greg-g: I can do that.
<beuno> but I think you should build a bit more of a track record
<pleia2> Mozilla team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam
<beuno> geeknik, get more involved in the community in general, meet some people
<nhandler> There is also the security team if you want to put your security knoweldge to good use
<beuno> it's important to be a part of the community
 * geeknik nods.
<beuno> geeknik, so, how about you invest some time in that, and come back in a few months?
<greg-g> geeknik: really, looking at your track record, it probably wouldn't be difficult for you :)
<geeknik> beuno: Definitely. =) How about I come back around August/September and see where we stand?
<geeknik> I'll dive in headfirst and come back strong. ;)
<pleia2> geeknik: sounds great!
<beuno> geeknik, sure, whenever you feel you're ready again. Feel free to ping any of us and review a bit beforehand if unsure
<nhandler> geeknik: We look forward to seeing you then
<greg-g> geeknik: awesome!
<geeknik> Thanks guys, I appreciate your time. =)
<nhandler> [TOPIC] ddecator
<MootBot> New Topic:  ddecator
<beuno> thanks geeknik!
<nhandler> ddecator: Care to introduce yourself?
<ddecator> Right. First, wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ddecator
<greg-g> geeknik: anytime, and feel free to ping me on IRC (I'm in #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-us-mi and #ubuntu-community-team :) )
<greg-g> ah, dang, missed him
<ddecator> My name is Draycen (aka, "Dray") and I'm a college undergraduate majoring in Psychology. Ubuntu is a hobby of mine, and I really enjoy contributing in any way I can. In the past, that has mostly been with the BugSquad and Ubuntu Beginners Team.
<nhandler> ddecator: Don't forget the Ubuntu Chicago LoCo :)
<ddecator> I plan to continue working with those two teams, but also increase my involvement with the Chicago LoCo and the Mozilla Team.
<nhandler> :)
<greg-g> awesome, I've seen your name around some with the Mozilla team
<greg-g> and in -bugs, of course
<pleia2> great wiki page (and testimonials!)
<ddecator> As you may notice, I had several months where I was inactive. That was due to a scheduling conflict, which should be resolved :)
<beuno> ddecator, wow, that's quite wiki page!
<ddecator> beuno: Thanks :)
<nhandler> ddecator: Any progress on starting up the Chicago Ubuntu Hours (or whatever we are calling them) ?
<ddecator> nhandler: Not yet, I plan on working on that when I get back to the city next week
<nhandler> Awesome ddecator !
<beuno> ddecator, I think your wiki page speaks for itself. I have one question for you:   what do you think we could improve in the Ubuntu community?
<ddecator> beuno: I think we can be much more accessible and much less overwhelming/daunting to new users, especially those who aren't the most tech-savvy. Right now, there is inconsistancy in the wikis, overwhelming information on the web, and a lot of conflicting advice. For the new user, who may still think Linux is all CLI, they are less likely to switch when they encounter all of that.
<pleia2> good answer :)
 * greg-g nods
<beuno> indeed
<nhandler> [VOTE] Should ddecator become an Ubuntu Member?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should ddecator become an Ubuntu Member?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nhandler> Congratulations ddecator !
<ddecator> Thank you very much everyone :)
<sagaci> well done ddecator
<pleia2> congrats ddecator! :)
<greg-g> congratulations ddecator
<nhandler> [TOPIC] DBO
<MootBot> New Topic:  DBO
<beuno> \o/ ddecator
<DBO> congrats ddecator
<greg-g> welcome, finally, DBO :)
<DBO> :) good to be here
<pleia2> DBO: care to introduce yourself?
<DBO> sure, so I am a 23 year old programmer out of Kalamazoo, MI
<DBO> I contributed heavily to Beryl, Compiz, GNOME Do, and authored Docky in the past
<DBO> as well I have been an IRC moderator on the ubuntu channels a couple years back
<DBO> you can see my wiki page here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jassmith
<DBO> currently I am employed by Canonical as a member of the DX team working on Unity
<lifeless> he's trouble :)
 * beuno agrees
<DBO> heh
<greg-g> yeah, I remember meeting him for the first time at Penguicon, no good :P
<ddecator> it's a michigander thing ;)
<DBO> Penguicon rocked... the tron guy was classic
<greg-g> :)
<greg-g> speaking of which, why aren't you in the #ubuntu-us-mi channel anymore? :)
<pleia2> DBO: how long have you been with canonical?
<DBO> about 1.5 years now
<DBO> greg-g, because I never re-added it to my autojoin out of sheer laziness (honesty is the best policy?)
<pleia2> hehe
<DBO> fixed
<greg-g> DBO: fine with me, as long as you didn't say we bored you ;)
<jcastro> I'd like to add a few vouches for DBO. He's been working real hard on Unity
<jcastro> but has made time for forums, IRC sessions
<DBO> too late!
<greg-g> thanks much for that, jcastro
<jcastro> and answering people's questions on Reddit and Ask
<pleia2> brave soul :)
<jcastro> he missed his last membership application because he was coding and spaced out, and almost did this time too.
<DBO> oh yeah, I did a reddit AMA a couple weeks back
<jcastro> It's 8:38pm local time for him
<jcastro> which kind of speaks for itself, that's really all I have to say
 * beuno substracts 10 points for not being able to multitask
<greg-g> jcastro: thanks buddy.
<DBO> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/en0ti/i_am_an_ubuntu_unity_developer_ama/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/en0ti/i_am_an_ubuntu_unity_developer_ama/
<DBO> i guess that was more than a couple weeks back
<beuno> a month, to be exact  :)
<jcastro> Plus he's really the most approachable person on the Unity team for users, and he's been really great at communicating how it works for people, etc.
<DBO> I love me some contributors, they produce awesome code we never could dedicate resources to
<DBO> the community has been so awesome with Unity :)
<jcastro> DBO: about how many new contributors have you mentored this cycle?
<jcastro> and or reviews?
<DBO> I have done reviews for 3 or 4, and answered questions for at least that many
<DBO> not everyone who comes poking around the code always submits a merge sadly
<DBO> but we get them eventually :)
<pleia2> ok, we lost quorum for a few minutes because one of our board members had to eat (sheesh!) so we're going to hold off on the vote for a few minutes and move on to our next applicant
<pleia2> DBO: hang in there, we'll get back to you in a few minutes! :)
<DBO> righto
<pleia2> [TOPIC] iheartubuntu
<pleia2> iheartubuntu: care to introduce yourself?
<iheartubuntu> Hello! My name is Dave and I am 37 and have been using Ubuntu for 5 years now. I enjoy the OS so much I have contributed in a number of ways...
<iheartubuntu> From helping the Ubuntu booth nonstop at SCaLE9x recently, creating the first ever Ubuntu Hour in Pasadena, CA, creating artwork for the various releases and running two Ubuntu related websites.
<greg-g> I like your wallpaper submissions, iheartubuntu
<iheartubuntu> thanks
<iheartubuntu> some of them had a lot of good xcomments on OMG Ubuntu
<greg-g> question though, on flickr they are not licensed under an acceptable CC license, isn't that required for the competition?
<iheartubuntu> I did submit them and tagged them accordingly at the time
<iheartubuntu> but I must have failed at choosing the correct CC
<iheartubuntu> could have very well been why a few were not accepted
<greg-g> iheartubuntu: s'ok, I'm nitpicking, I'm a license/copyright expert, so its the kind of thing I notice ;)
<iheartubuntu> I will change them and update anything i do in ther future
<greg-g> iheartubuntu: oh, yeah, very well could have been, since the ones I saw were All Rights Reserved (ie: not ok :) )
<nhandler> Alright, sorry for having to duck out earlier. But we'll vote on DBO first and then iheartubuntu
<nhandler> [VOTE] Should DBO be an Ubuntu Member?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should DBO be an Ubuntu Member?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nhandler> Congratulations and welcome DBO
<ddecator> congrats DBO :)
<DBO> thank you gentlemen :)
<greg-g> congrats and welcome (finally), DBO !
<micahg> congrats DBO
<pleia2> hey, what about me? ;)
<pleia2> congrats DBO
<nhandler> [VOTE] Should iheartubuntu be an Ubuntu Member?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should iheartubuntu be an Ubuntu Member?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<DBO> and lady? :)
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> congrats iheartubuntu!
<nhandler> Congratulations iheartubuntu
<beuno> \o/  congrats DBO and iheartubuntu
<ddecator> and congrats to iheartubuntu :)
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, iheartubuntu
<iheartubuntu> Wow, thank you so much. I will work hard to forward Ubuntu
<nhandler> Thanks to everyone for coming tonight, and sorry for the problems achieving and maintaining quorum
<pleia2> thanks everyone!
<nhandler> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:52.
<DBO> congrats iheartubuntu :)
<greg-g> have a good night all, thanks for coming out and supporting the Membership process!
<iheartubuntu> thanks, you too DBO
 * skaet waves
<seb128> hey
<Chipaca> hi
<skaet> heya seb128,  you doing desktop today?
<Daviey> o/
<pitti> o/
<ScottK> \o
<pitti> skaet: I'm prep'ed
<seb128> skaet, desktop is going great, got a new unity with lot of bug fixes and other nice things ;-)
<skaet> lol
<skaet> ok,  lets get started.  :)
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> hi everyone
<skaet> [Topic] Natty overview - skaet_
<skaet> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Agenda is at:
<skaet> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-03-18
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty overview - skaet_
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-03-18
<skaet> .
<skaet> Seeing a nice bit of movement on the bugs last week.  Thanks to everyone involved in fixing them!   If I've still got some being tracked under the wrong team though,  please let me know, or feel free to go into the WIKI and move it to the right team ;).
<skaet> .
<skaet> As of 2011/03/17 bugs for Natty that are are targetted for fixing were broken down as follows:
<skaet>       * kernel:   linux: 9   drivers: 14  ( 3 from 2010 )
<skaet>       * foundations:  23  ( 6 from 2010)  but on the good news front 14 resolved in the last week! :)
<skaet>       * server: 6
<skaet>       * desktop: 12
<skaet>       * ubuntuone: 5 (2 from 2010 )  and 7 resolved in the last week! :)
<skaet>       * kubuntu: 4 (2 from 2010 )
<skaet>       * desktop experience: 33 (3 from 2010 )  and  13 resolved in last week!  :)
<skaet>       * arm: 8 (3 from 2010 )
<skaet> .
<skaet> This is still up from where we were with maverick, so appreciate the continued focus on it.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Milestoned bugs for beta 1 can be found:
<skaet> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone=33574.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone=33574.
<skaet> Bugs targetted for this release can be found:
<skaet> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+bugs
<skaet> .
<skaet> Note that the renaming of beta to beta-1 caused some links to become inaccurate.  If you spot any that are broken, please let me know.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming Significant Dates:
<skaet> User Interface Freeze and Beta Freeze is March 24th (at 2300 UTC )
<skaet> Beta 1 Release is March 31st.
<skaet> questions?
<skaet> ..
 * skaet looks around for questions..
<skaet> ok, moving on to to round table then.
<skaet> [Topic] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo> hi folks
<marjo>  * Natty Beta 1 Work Items
<marjo>  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<marjo>  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-qa-n-testing-different-architectures
<marjo>  jibel blocked on confirmation from skaet and persia to clean up subscribers list
<marjo>  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-uec-qa
<marjo>  hggdh still blocked due to lack of working UEC tools since after Alpha 2.
<marjo>  * Natty boot regression report
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~brian/daily-bootcharts/index.html
<marjo> bugs reported and under investigation by Foundations team.
<marjo>  bug 737152
<marjo>  bug 737143
<marjo>  bug 737154
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~brian/daily-bootcharts/index.html
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737152 in The Ubuntu Boot Speed Project "Certification System 201101-7164 boots 10.63 seconds slower" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737152
<marjo>  bug 737148
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737143 in unity "Can't open nautilus Bookmarks which connect to server from unity-place-folders" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737143
<marjo>  bug 737157
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737154 in The Ubuntu Boot Speed Project "Certification System 201101-7174 boots 20.92 seconds slower" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737154
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737148 in The Ubuntu Boot Speed Project "Certification System 201011-6750 boots 6 seconds slower" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737148
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737157 in The Ubuntu Boot Speed Project "Certification System 201101-7185 boots 15.31 seconds slower" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737157
<marjo>  bug 737156
<marjo>  bug 737155
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737156 in The Ubuntu Boot Speed Project "Certification System 201101-7184 boots 14.54 seconds slower" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737156
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737155 in The Ubuntu Boot Speed Project "Certification System 201101-7183 boots 9.95 seconds slower" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737155
<marjo>  * Natty Blocking bugs
<marjo>  bug 717166
<marjo>  bug 729827
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 717166 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Natty) "Broken with v4 isc-dhcp-server in Natty" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/717166
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 729827 in unity (Ubuntu Natty) "at-spi-registry consumes most of the CPU and make the system unusable on Natty" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/729827
<marjo> skaet: both those bugs are already marked High and are being worked on
<skaet> ok
<marjo>  * QA Dashboard
<marjo>  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> Note linux, unity, xserver-org-video-intel, ubiquity and compiz are all in both the "Last Day" and "Last 7 Days" metrics.
<marjo> skaet: Double confirmation that those are the packages to focus on!
<skaet> yup.  :)
<marjo>  * Testing status:
<marjo>  Desktop Automated Testing results
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo> Number of 2D tests: 315, 75% pass
<marjo> Number of Unity tests: 296, 69% pass
<marjo> List of bugs found is at the bottom of page.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo>  Server Automated Testing results
<marjo>  http://204.236.234.12/view/ISO-server-Natty/?
<marjo>  28 tests failed. hggdh will investigate.
<marjo>  Desktop and Alternate Image Testig results
<marjo>  http://204.236.234.12:8080/view/natty-desktop/?
<marjo>  3 failures being investigated by jibel. desktop-i386 test restarted.
<marjo>   Automatic Upgrade Testing
<marjo>  Currently down. Last result is http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/2011-03-15-15:03:02/
<marjo>  Still the sudo prompt and the openoffice.org upgrade overwrite error.
<marjo> ..
<skaet> Thanks marjo!
<marjo> thx skaet
<skaet> can you double check with me against the agenda that the blocking bugs are on it?
 * skaet wants a second set of eyes to do the correlations.
<marjo> skaet: will do on-the-side
<skaet> thanks marjo
<skaet> any other questions?
<dbarth__> o/
<skaet> go dbarth__
<dbarth__> marjo: what's making boot slower?
<dbarth__> marjo: is that a unity thing?
<dbarth__> (hope not, but need to know0
<marjo> dbarth_ still under investigation; no smoking gun yet
<dbarth__> ok
<marjo> dbarth_: X is contributing, but not by much
<skaet> any other questions?
<marjo> skaet: just confirmed that both blocking bugs are covered by desktop and server teams in your agenda; so we're ok
<skaet> cool.  :)
<skaet> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - victorp
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - victorp
 * skaet looks around and not seeing ara or victorp responding...
<skaet> moving on
<skaet> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<cjwatson> er, I didn't expect this meeting to be shifted back an hour, not ready yet, sorry
<jdstrand> Our team fixed a couple of milestoned bugs this week (see the above report). Otherwise not a lot to report here-- team has been focusing primarily on stable release updates.
<jdstrand> We are below the trend line and have no remaining milestoned bugs or features for beta.
 * jdstrand wasn't sure of the timing-- seems each meeting I had this week was handled differently :P
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet> cjwatson, np, we'll circle back to you at end.
<skaet> jdstrand thanks!
<skaet> sorry all about the daylight savings time shuffle this week.  :(
<skaet> [Topic] Kernel team update - ogasawara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - ogasawara
<ogasawara> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> We have very few specific work items in the ubuntu-11.04-beta milestone, mostly non-release related.  The natty distro kernel is now at v2.6.38-7.35, this represents v2.6.38 mainline final release!  This marks the intended upstream version for the kernel and we will now start following upstream stable v2.6.38.y.  It also marks the return of the powerpc kernels, the compiler issues seem resolved.  The main concern current
<ogasawara> ly is the vesafb interaction with the intel DRM drivers which is triggering GPU hang reports, a prototype for which is in testing.
<ogasawara> Of the bugs called out on the agenda against the kernel, status is as below:
<ogasawara> #539467 SATA alpm is now disabled in userspace, possible fix for Nvidia mcp65 controllers when in minimal power mode in testing;
<ogasawara> #542660 still present, no real progress this week;
<ogasawara> #625364 looks possible to work around using a pm-utils quirk;
<ogasawara> #630748 remains waiting on Intel for updated wireless firmware;
<ogasawara> #634487 workaround exists, but proper fix still needs investiagion.
<ogasawara> #702090 looks to be an interaction with vesafb, upstream are saying "don't do that", prototype fix in testing;
<ogasawara> #707353 workaround available, real fix needs applied to linux-firmware package.
<ogasawara> #712075 partial fix in place, testing requested with 26.38 final kernel;
<ogasawara> #717114 issue identified and possible fix now in testing.
<ogasawara> ..
<skaet> thanks ogasawara!   (and welcome back  :) )
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Server team update - Daviey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - Daviey
<Daviey> Hello!
<skaet> :)
<Daviey> Status: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<Daviey> WI tracking: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-server-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
<Daviey> We are closer to the trend line, and still have significant documentation to do.  Platform is looking good, with out most serious bug still being bug #717166.
<Daviey> Bugs:
<Daviey> Outstanding
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 717166 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Natty) "Broken with v4 isc-dhcp-server in Natty" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/717166
<Daviey>     561779 - squid - squid is not started on runlevel transition 1 -> 2.
<Daviey>     727286 - libvirt - apparmor is blocking libvirt-bin from accessing folders in "/
<Daviey>     733914 - autofs5 - autofs races network interfaces, ends up not working
<Daviey>     728088 - debian-installer - iscsi root (amd64) with or without auth fails to boot
<Daviey> In progress
<Daviey>     697753 - bittorrent recommendation prevents bittorrent demotion
<Daviey>         Fix Committed, pending upload
<Daviey>     711587 - powernap and Eucalyptus seem unable to reach an understanding
<Daviey>         Fix Committed, pending upload
<Daviey>     717166 - Eucalyptus - Broken with v4 isc-dhcp-server in Natty
<Daviey>         Upstream have proposed a fix, that is being reviewed.
<Daviey>     580319 - dhcp3-server launches before upstart brings all interface, thus failing to start
<Daviey>         Assigned to JamesHunt
<Daviey>     732759 - [FFe] [needs-packaging] python-ethtool
<Daviey>         In NEW queue, pending Accept
<Daviey>     727200 [MIR] lxcguest in main
<Daviey>         Pending MIR review
<Daviey>     727342 FFE: open-vm-tools kernel module failed to build
<Daviey>         Pending approval from ~ubuntu-release
<Daviey> cloud-server-n-ubuntu-trial - 0% - Not part of the distro release, and spec is currently being heavily modified as it isn't currently accurate.
<Daviey> cloud-server-n-automated-testing - 0% - Making progress, and should be good for concurrent beta image testing (with tradional testing).
<Daviey> packageselection-server-n-upstart-server-enhancement - 8% - Documentation remaining
<Daviey> packageselection-server-n-commandline-userfriendly - 69% - Parts will be defered, and wider input is going to be sought.
<Daviey> packageselection-server-n-cluster-stack - 31% - Will be documentation remaining.
<Daviey> All in, we are doing as expected - as explained, the most
<Daviey> concerning bug is bug #717166, which is being looked at by many people at the moment.  We have a potential fix.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 717166 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Natty) "Broken with v4 isc-dhcp-server in Natty" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/717166
<Daviey> ...
<jdstrand> Daviey: I just uploaded the fix for bug #727286 a few minutes ago
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 727286 in libvirt (Ubuntu Natty) "apparmor is blocking libvirt-bin from accessing folders in "/"" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/727286
<Daviey> jdstrand, I saw!  That is awesome :)
<jdstrand> heh
<skaet> Thanks Daviey!    Appreciate the details.  :)
<marjo> Daviey: thx for working on 717166
<Daviey> jdstrand, I meant to take it out of the list, but my list predates your fix.. dammit!
<skaet> heh
<jdstrand> :)
 * skaet knows all about that....
<Daviey> heh
<Daviey> Thank you. o/
<skaet> any other question?
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti
<pitti> Blueprint implementation:
<pitti>  * On track for entire cycle
<pitti>  * beta-1: not much progress last week, but the actual implementation bits are mostly done; remaining WIs fall into those categories:
<pitti>   * Adding unit tests, human testing, etc. (not bound by FF or other freezes; b1 milestone was used mainly for planning)
<pitti>   * Some remaining a11y work for Unity; worked on by DX, we just need to integrate once it's landing
<pitti>   * Porting remaining software to xulrunner-2.0 (not really bound by FF, but should be done soon); stragglers will be removed from the archive; the main blocker here is swt-gtk which is required by eucalyptus, as discussed last week
<pitti>   * Quickly improvements are still blocked on Launchpad improvements; postponed to oneiric now
<pitti>   * Sofware-Center UI enhancements: Some are probably done, but some implementation work left
<pitti> General status:
<pitti>  * The usual weekly unity release with tons of bug fixes; Pressing Alt now finally gets back menus
<pitti>  * Previous round of maverick-proposed langpacks broke search plugins; fixed langpack-o-matic, new packages in -proposed now; next round of natty langpacks will have this fixed, too
<pitti> RC bugs:
<pitti>  * Not much progress this week; will walk over the list in next desktop team meeting
<pitti>  * Details at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus#rcbugs
<pitti> ..
<skaet> thanks pitti!
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team - Chipaca
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - Chipaca
<Chipaca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<Chipaca> details on where we're at with our natty work and releases are in the link above
<Chipaca> FFE update... bindwood bug #648587 has a package ready to go & ubuntuone-couch in universal bug #729117 is getting uploaded by kenvandine
<Chipaca> the list of bugs we're working on currently can be found in the link i posted earlier...
<Chipaca> we have some final ui/text changes to make in the next couple days related to the control panel and banshee/libubuntuone but these should be in prior to ui freeze
<Chipaca> and that's it for this week for u1 - questions?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 648587 in bindwood (Ubuntu Natty) "[FFE] bindwood is incompatible with Firefox 4" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/648587
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 729117 in Ubuntu "[FFE] Add ubuntuone-couch to universe " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/729117
<Chipaca> ..
<skaet> thanks Chipaca!
 * Chipaca bows reverently
<skaet> lol
<skaet> not seeing any questions, so moving on.  :)
<skaet> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<skaet> :)
<Riddell>  * the world is broken due to late addition of multiarch, anything compiled with cmake now won't find multiarch libraries
<Riddell>   - I'm looking at a quick fix of hardcoding the new multiarch paths
<Riddell>  * Qt on ARM now uses OpenGLES, this breaks anything using openGL directly such as koffice, kdeedu etc (anything using glew and avogadro). rsalveti and janimo from mobile say that'll work on them and "linaro is working to get gles support at glew".  no quick fixes for this problem.
<Riddell>  * kubuntu-mobile now being generated from separate seeds and in universe.  ARM images not building - to be investigated
<Riddell>  * other CD images all good
<Riddell>  * 9 bugs milestoned for beta http://goo.gl/23eui
<Riddell> ..
<skaet> Thanks Riddell
<skaet> who are you working with on the multiarch issues?  is there a bug?
<Riddell> it's bug 737137
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737137 in cmake (Ubuntu Natty) "find_library fails to locate multiarch libraries" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737137
<skaet> thanks!
<Riddell> I've discussed it with slangasek a bit
<Riddell> it needs discussion with cmake upstream and Debian for a proper solution
<skaet> good,  that's what I was hoping to hear.    So, we should have workarounds in place for beta, but need better long term?
<Riddell> hopefully yes
<skaet> thanks!
<skaet> any other questions?
<ScottK> It makes it rather tough to make progress on the gles issue with cmake broken ...
<skaet> sigh,  understood.  :(
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth__
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth__
<dbarth__> hi
<skaet> :)
<dbarth__> the weekly report is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus as usual
<dbarth__> highglights for the week
<dbarth__> 1. FFEs
<dbarth__> Datetime menu support for browsing calendars (726531) -> Done and released
<dbarth__> ALT-F2 (580295) -> Done and released
<dbarth__> Zeitgeist-0.7.0 (732551) -> Done and released
<dbarth__> Easy application installation (670403) -> Done and released
<dbarth__> places a11y (731403) -> Blocked by regressions
<dbarth__> overlay scrollbar (730740) -> We confirm our request for an exception
<dbarth__> multi-touch support in Unity (737601) -> In progress
<dbarth__>  
<dbarth__> the last 3 are the one to notice
<dbarth__>  
 * skaet notes
<dbarth__> on the Unity front; 65 bugs fixed in a single release!
<dbarth__> including:
<dbarth__>  numerous gl & a11y crashers
<dbarth__> the alt keypress bug (689179)
<dbarth__> KDE apps can now be pinned to the launcher
<dbarth__> and a lot of UI adjustments in the dash, like the new auto-resizing layout or ALT-F2 support
<dbarth__> still no a11y for places, due to focus/grab mgmt improvements that created regressions in the a11y integration
<dbarth__> overlay scrollbar: lots of fixes to extend the list of supported applications: Ayatana/ScrollBars
<dbarth__> the places a11y FFE is still blocked, that's a worry at this stage
<dbarth__>  
<dbarth__> Foundations is trying to break records as well: 30 bugs fixed this week
<dbarth__>  highly improved latency of searches, improved relevancy ranking of searches & showcasing random apps from Software Center
<dbarth__> Zeitgeist FTS Extension got a long waited fix extending the capabilities of the event filtering mechanism which was required in order to filter out applications from searches in the files place
<dbarth__> Dee ABI+API stability since 0.5.12 (released Monday) also with a range of new functionality to help optimize the Unity shell(s) and place daemons alike
<dbarth__> More dbusmenu & indicator fixes
<dbarth__>  
<dbarth__> Last on the QA front: triaging as usual with a rise in the bug inflow
<dbarth__> Provided test cases for GL, Compiz and Ayatana Scrollbar
<dbarth__> Work on compiz automated testcases for the 3 main regressions (invisible windows, stacking order issues and decorator crashers)
<dbarth__> ..
<marjo> o/
<skaet> thanks dbarth__ !
<skaet> congrats on swatting all those bugs.  :)
<skaet> go marjo
<marjo> skaet, dbarth: ok to sneak in last-minute NVIDIA test results?
<dbarth__> yes, good news?
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/graphics_testing/natty/
<marjo> The following nVidia cards are reported to work with Unity:
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation C79 [GeForce G102M]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation Device 06c0
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G73 [GeForce 7600 GT]
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/graphics_testing/natty/
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G80 [GeForce 8800 GTS]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G84 [GeForce 8600 GTS]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G84 [GeForce 8600 GT]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G84 [GeForce 8600M GT]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G84M [Quadro NVS 320M]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G86 [GeForce 8400 GS]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G86 [GeForce 8400M GS]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G86 [GeForce 9300M G]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G92 [GeForce 9800 GT]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G94 [GeForce 9600 GT]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation G96 [GeForce GT 130M]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation GT200 [GeForce GTX 260]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation GT218 [GeForce 310M]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation GT218 [NVS 3100M]
<marjo>     * nVidia Corporation ION VGA [GeForce 9400M]
<marjo> dbarth__ yes!
<marjo> ..
<skaet> :)
<victorp> cool
<skaet> good news is always welcome.   Thanks marjo!
<dbarth__> nice coverage, but some results are worrying
<dbarth__> fallback in particular
<dbarth__> can we see that offline?
<marjo> dbarth__ ack
<skaet> any other questions for dbarth__ ?
<skaet> [Topic] ARM team update - ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra
 * skaet looks around for ogra?  
<skaet> ok, will move on, and see if we can pick him up later.
<skaet> [Topic] MOTU team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> Hello.
<skaet> :)
<ScottK> Nothing major to report.
<ScottK> NBS and FTBFS could use some work.
<ScottK> It occurs to me that we might do a global giveback during beta1 freeze to see how much gets fixed now that the DSO linking change has been reverted?
<ScottK> ..
<cjwatson> that's feasible
<ScottK> The buildd's are generally pretty idle during the freeze, so it seems a good use of the CPU cycles to me.
<cjwatson> agreed
<ScottK> Of course it depends a bit on where we are with multi-arch if that's the right time ...
<cjwatson> it shouldn't take long enough that it impedes release preparation
<skaet> will get with you both offline then on it.
<ScottK> Should there be an action?
<skaet> yup
<skaet> [ACTION] [cjwatson, skaet, ScottK] investigate feasibility of global giveback during beta1 freeze if buildd's are available.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  [cjwatson, skaet, ScottK] investigate feasibility of global giveback during beta1 freeze if buildd's are available.
<skaet> probably we can see where we are next meeting and use the weekend if things are calm?
<ScottK> Yeah.
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
<JamieBennett> hi skaet
<skaet> :)
<JamieBennett> So as you are aware, some breakage happened this week due to the multiarch work
<JamieBennett> cmake, apt, and our own tools are being worked on
<JamieBennett> Steve is confident that this will be done soon
 * skaet glad to hear
<JamieBennett> jcrigby is working on a new kernel upload to fix our Panda issues but is blocked on some lttng breakage atm
<JamieBennett> this will come soon
<JamieBennett> also a new version of our linaro build tools will be needed
<JamieBennett> ..
<skaet> thanks JamieBennett!
<skaet> I'm curious about if jcrigby's changes are being integrated what ARM team got from TI, but will get with you offline.
<skaet> any questions?
<JamieBennett> they are separate from what I understand
<skaet> ok.
<skaet> circling back now then to folks who got DLS'd
<skaet> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> Comfortably below trend line, no feature issues to speak of.
<cjwatson> We've had several regressions to handle from the transition to multiarch - ldconfig, mklibs, bootchart, etc.  So far most of the ones I've seen have been handled, but we still need to be vigilant.
<cjwatson> I haven't checked whether there's a test rebuild planned between now and release to see what build regressions we have from multiarch (other than cmake as mentioned by Riddell), but that wouldn't hurt.
<cjwatson> Bugs: fairly rapid progress this week, as seen in the meeting agenda.  Remaining issues that I think are vital for beta 1 are:
<cjwatson>  - bug 690873
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 690873 in sudo (Ubuntu Natty) "latest natty sudo upgrade prompts for conffile update and potentially removes %admin from /etc/sudoers" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690873
<cjwatson>  - plumbing side of vesafb GPU lockups, which should be landable and ought to clear up some long-standing plymouth issues along with it
<cjwatson>  - make sure that d-i still works after multiarch bootstrap (it's been variously broken and unbuildable for a couple of days)
<cjwatson>  - sync open-iscsi userspace back up with kernelspace
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> thanks cjwatson!
<skaet> congrats on all those bug fixes over the last week!
<skaet> have noted the ones you think are critical for beta 1.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - victorp
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - victorp
<victorp> o/
<victorp> Results for this week: http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current.html
<victorp> Notes:
<victorp> 1) bootchart does not create /var/log/bootchart.tgz on the 20110317 image, causing checkbox to reboot endlessly. This cased many of desktop machines not to report results.
<victorp> 2) One server (hogplum) seems to have defective hw
<victorp> 3) Systems using the 20110317 where able to report results
<victorp> 4) Several checkbox cases are giving false positives, tests are being revamped
<victorp> also bootchart results for this week
<victorp> http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/boot-metrics/natty/bootchart_week11_2011.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/boot-metrics/natty/bootchart_week11_2011.html
<victorp> ..
<skaet> thanks victorp!
<victorp> no probs
 * victorp got confused with dls
<skaet> will review through the charts offline, and follow up if I've got questions then.
 * skaet is not looking forward to europe going on DLS in a couple of weeks.  :P
<skaet> anyone have questions for victorp?
<skaet> is ogra around now?
<skaet> or someone from ARM team?
<skaet> [Topic] any other kudos/comments/questions?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other kudos/comments/questions?
<skaet> hmm,  seems quiet...
<skaet> going once
<skaet> twice
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:55.
<cjwatson> victorp: bootchart already fixed, btw
<victorp> cjwatson, fantastic
<marjo> cjwatson: thx
<skaet> thank you marjo,  jdstrand, ogasawara, cjwatson, pitti, Daviey, ScottK, joshuahoover, dbarth__, victorp
<marjo> skaet: thx!
<victorp> cjwatson, just to make sure we are talking about the same issue - what bug number?
<pitti> thansk everyone
<cjwatson> victorp: bug 737487
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737487 in bootchart (Ubuntu) "Bootchart data not generated" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737487
 * Chipaca waves
<ScottK> skaet: Riddell too.
<skaet> sorry,  Chipaca - thanks to you for covering
<Chipaca> :)
<skaet> thanks Riddell
 * skaet hangs head,  sigh.     
<victorp> cjwatson, Great
<skaet> thanks all who were participating.   :)
<victorp> skaet, thanks for hosting
<jdstrand> skaet: thanks!
<davidm> skaet, we are on our weekly call with TI, the meeting moved with DST
<skaet> davidm,  DST fun.   :P   thanks for letting me know what happened.
<rsalveti> skaet: shouldn't this meeting be in utc?
<apw> i thought it was 16:00 utc also
<rsalveti> both me and ogra were thinking that it'd start just now :-)
<skaet> it floated based on being set up from US.  :P
<skaet> rslaveti, apw, ogra - sorry about that.
 * skaet not looking forward to Europe going on DLS time, and the churn that week as well.  :P
<apw> skaet, i guess we need a reminder what time the meeting really is, ie is it 09:00 mountain time, or xxx UTC
<apw> so we can track it through the next few weeks, we change ourselves next week
<ogra> yep, that would help
<ogra> skaet, i'll add our status to the wiki before ending my day then
<ogra> gcal is evil
<skaet> apw,  my reminder from yesterday still appears to be in the outbox.   intended to send it, but am jinxed I guess.
<skaet> ogra,  thanks
<skaet> apw, ogra, rsalveti - will send out the reminders next Thursday.
<rsalveti> skaet: thanks!
<apw> skaet, i think the key is knowingt which timezone you are holding it in so we can adjust our calendars
<skaet> I'm in US Central time zone.    (CDT now :P )
<davidm> or lock the meeting to UTC and let DST times float around a hard locked meeting
<skaet> davidm,  will investigate getting it locked to UTC in future (after we all synch back up when Europe goes to DST)
<[OzzY]> ho
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-03-12
<ejat> ello ..
 * hrw -> food
<tumbleweed> ~
<tumbleweed> grr
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<bdrung> hi
<micahg> o/
<Laney> oho!
<tumbleweed> whee, we'll be quorate
 * stgraber waves
<Laney> bdrung: you are up
<bdrung> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 12 14:04:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is bdrung. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<bdrung> there is one open item: cody-somerville to write some documentation on how to endorse someone
<bdrung> cody-somerville is not here. therefore we will carry it to the next meeting
<hrw> hi
<bdrung> everything else was done
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Marcin Juszkiewicz's MOTU application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Marcin Juszkiewicz's MOTU application
<bdrung> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcinJuszkiewicz/DeveloperApplication-MOTU
<hrw> o/
<bdrung> hrw: please introduce yourself
<hrw> sure
<hrw> I work for Linaro project. Our priority is to improve Linux on ARM.
<hrw> I maintain arm(el,hf) cross compilers in Ubuntu since maverick (PPU for it got ~year ago)
<hrw> in spare time or during Linaro ARM porting jams I work on fixing ftfbs for armel/armhf packages in Ubuntu
<hrw> I worked on multiarching few packages to make cross compilation easier
<hrw> .
<hrw> list of ftfbs bugs which I fixed is in application
<hrw> I think thats all - rest is in application
<stgraber> how familiar are you with the Ubuntu release process and more specifically the various freezes?
<hrw> stgraber: did FFe for cross compiler in maverick time, had SRU for it after maverick release.
<stgraber> you mentioned multiarching packages, do you need a FFe for these if you were to do some now?
<hrw> stgraber: until final freeze universe packages are allowed to be upload unless new features are added - as for those I usually check do I need FFe for them or not
<hrw> stgraber: as multiarch is feature I would ask for FFe in such case.
<stgraber> good :)
<hrw> stgraber: maybe it will be decided that it may go as is but I prefer to be safe then sorry.
<hrw> ofcourse before asking for FFe I check rebuild of packages which b-d on it
<tumbleweed> i'd say it's more a "non-trivial packaging change" than a feature, but yes, FFe is appreciated
<hrw> otherwise it is just asking for problems
<stgraber> hrw: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce and read it at least daily?
 * tumbleweed wishes people checked reverse dependencies before filing FFes :P
<hrw> stgraber: I am subscribed there. last mail was there  at 01.03.2012
<hrw> tumbleweed: I am used to daily builds of whole distributions so 'better safe then sorry' is my second name ;F
<hrw> tumbleweed: red buildbot meant 'drop everything and fix'
<hrw> stgraber: so, yes I read it when new mails arrive
<stgraber> hrw: perfect
<hrw> stgraber: also ubuntu-devel, launchpad-announce
<micahg> hrw: is there a reason you're using your linaro address instead of your Ubuntu address for uploads as update-maintainer is set to error out on an Ubuntu address
<hrw> and few debian lists (-arm -embedded) due to work
<hrw> micahg: I do this as part of my Linaro work.
<micahg> hrw: ah, ok
<stgraber> hrw: now, let's say we are in milestone freeze (beta2) and you want to upload python-gevent which is a universe package, can you do it and if not why?
<hrw> micahg: due years of my work for different clients I always used their domain on my work
<hrw> stgraber: beta freeze means manual appoval for main/restricted so I could upload to universe. But as this is >beta I would first check is it worth and does it break something
<tumbleweed> actually, manual approval everywhere, but universe uploads are waved through
<micahg> tumbleweed: hrw: not ture :)
<stgraber> most of universe ;)
<micahg> *ture
<micahg> *true
<hrw> ops then
 * micahg needs to fix that wiki page...
<tumbleweed> micahg: right, there is some review
<stgraber> hrw: so in this case, python-gevent is covered by the freeze even though it's in universe, do you know why?
<hrw> stgraber: to not increase amount of possible rc bugs
<stgraber> hrw: well, that's indeed important but that's not the reason :)
<hrw> stgraber: nope
<tumbleweed> hrw: have you seen the seeded-in-ubuntu tool?
<stgraber> python-gevent is an rdepends of python-x2go
<stgraber> python-x2go is seeded by Edubuntu
<hrw> tumbleweed: no, I did not
<stgraber> and so is covered by the freeze
<hrw> stgraber: ah. ok, now I understand
<stgraber> anything that's in universe and seeded is covered by the freeze just as much as main is
<stgraber> seeded-in-ubuntu python-gevent would indeed let you check this
<hrw> thank you
<hrw> will make use of it for my linaro seeds
<tumbleweed> it gets its data from the most recent CD builds, so using it for linaro may be non-trivial
<tumbleweed> hrw: you've only been doing a small corner of the work MOTUs do (FTBFS and multi-arching) are you intending to broaden out? I assume you are focussing there for work reasons?
<hrw> tumbleweed: but checking how it works and wriiting similar one may be useful one day
<hrw> tumbleweed: yes, I am focusing most of my Ubuntu work on my work reasons.
<hrw> tumbleweed: will use motu rights also to upload fixes done by coworkers. but as I lurk in #ubuntu-motu I can work on sponsoring other people
<tumbleweed> great to hear
<tumbleweed> if you come across an area you aren't already familiar with, you'd ask for help?
<hrw> motu is not ppu - there are some duties attached
<hrw> tumbleweed: yes, I would
<tumbleweed> well, no duties, but we are a community
<hrw> tumbleweed: trying to find way in darkness can hurt so it is better to ask
<tumbleweed> if you are unsure, at least
<tumbleweed> I'm done here, I think
<hrw> tumbleweed: English is not my native. duties as 'will be nice to help others due to increased permissions'
<bdrung> hi, i am back. i had an issue with my internet connection.
<bdrung> sorry for that.
<micahg> hrw: how do you ensure that all changelogs between the version in the Ubuntu archive and a merge from Debian are present when uploading?
<hrw> micahg: I use debdiff + gvim(diff) when merge such ones.
<tumbleweed> micahg: I don't think hrw has uploaded a merge yet
<hrw> micahg: I know that merge-changelog exists
<hrw> tumbleweed: dpkg-cross
<tumbleweed> ah
<hrw> tumbleweed: 2.6.2 and 2.6.5
<hrw> I am also doing merges for few ppa only packages
<micahg> hrw: yes, but you didn't upload those :), sorry, I guess you probably won't be able to answer the question
<micahg> that's ok though :)
<hrw> micahg: they were sponsored from my debdiffs ;)
<micahg> hrw: right, but this is something to check with the source package before upload or during generation and not the diff
<hrw> ok
<hrw> I had issues with bzr merging of changelogs and due to that reverted to do it by hand in gvim. gcc-x.y have changelog not compatible with current Debian policies
<micahg> hrw: bzr-builddeb also has issues generating a proper source.changes file with all the changelog entries needed in it
<hrw> micahg: I am not a fan of bzr anyway. But know how to use it
<stgraber> micahg: "bzr bd -S -- -sa -v<version>" usually works fine here
<micahg> stgraber: yes, but you need the -v, not just --package-merge
<stgraber> micahg: right, I just don't trust --package-merge ;)
<micahg> hrw: BTW, it's that -v option you need when merging to generate a source.changes with all the appropriate changelog entries and then they get sent to the -changes list
<hrw> micahg: thanks
<micahg> the merge-package scripts from a merge can do this for you in most cases
<micahg> * from merges.ubuntu.com
<tumbleweed> it's also mentioned in the Merging wiki page
<hrw> used merges.ubuntu.com few times already
<hrw> mostly for dpkg-cross work but also took a look there on other packages few times
<micahg> hrw: do you have an interest in Debian?
<hrw> micahg: I used Debian since 2000 to 2010 when I switched to Ubuntu due to being hired by Canonical to work on Linaro.
<micahg> hrw: so, are you familiar with forwarding patches to their BTS?
<hrw> micahg: yes, send patch to upstream is always useful
<Laney> are Debian's arm ports much different from ours at the individual package level?
<micahg> hrw: have you looked at getting your cross compilers into Debian or is that not possible/relevant for Debian?
<hrw> Laney: Debian/armel is armv4t when Ubuntu one is armv7-a. armhf are same
<bdrung> hrw: which arm version is needed for armhf?
<hrw> micahg: I am working on it. we (Emdebian guys and me) decided that it will be more useful to get cross build-deps support and then proper multiarch buildable cross compiler instead of current ubuntu one
<hrw> bdrung: armv7-a which mean cortex-a5/7/8/9/15 and compatible cores
<hrw> bdrung: neon support is not required, vfp3d16 is what all arm7a chips have
<hrw> micahg: multiarch buildable cross is <1h of work from my packages (+build time)
<hrw> micahg: some changes will be needed in gcc-4.x probably but I had my hands there so many times...
<ScottK> FWIW, I've worked with hrw on some arm porting issues (don't recall if I ended up sponsoring the uploads or not) and I found him very pleasant to work with.
<hrw> ScottK: thanks
<bdrung> any ready to vote or are there still open questions?
<hrw> ScottK: it was soemthing with Qt problems. they got solved by ubuntu.arm and linaro teams iirc and then ubuntu/arm team did uploads
<stgraber> I'm ready to vote
<micahg> ready to vote
<tumbleweed> when can I get an arm board with >=2G of RAM?
<tumbleweed> also ready
<Laney> lets go
<hrw> tumbleweed: there are such ones already.
<tumbleweed> hrw: affordable?
<hrw> tumbleweed: depends on definition of 'affordable'
<bdrung> [VOTE] Should Marcin Juszkiewicz become MOTU?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Marcin Juszkiewicz become MOTU?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<hrw> tumbleweed: at last linaro connect I played with marvell board. quad a9, 4gb ddr3, 7xpcie x4 slots, 2 sata ports, 4x GbE - atx size beast
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<tumbleweed> hrw: nice
<micahg> +1 would have liked to see more merges, but has been very responsive to comments in bugs
<meetingology> +1 would have liked to see more merges, but has been very responsive to comments in bugs received from micahg
<hrw> tumbleweed: or rather quad 'a9 compatible cores'
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Marcin Juszkiewicz become MOTU?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> hrw: as a community (hobby) ubuntu developer, affordable means "really cheap"
<tumbleweed> hrw: congrats, welcome to MOTU
<hrw> tumbleweed: then no. ram is most expensive part usually
<dholbach> congratulations hrw!
<hrw> thanks a lot guys!
<bdrung> hrw: congrats
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Select a chair for the next meeting
<bdrung> who will be next?
<rsalveti> hrw: congrats! \o/
<hrw> rsalveti: thx boss :)\
<tumbleweed> PC RAM is crazily cheap. I guess we just need dev boards with PC DDR3 sockets
<tumbleweed> bdrung: Still cody-somerville, I think
<bdrung> k
<hrw> tumbleweed: this will increase size of board and price
<tumbleweed> sure
<bdrung> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 12 15:00:12 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-12-14.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-12-14.04.html
<hrw> tumbleweed: omap4 for example comes only with PoP module form for memory
<bdrung> hrw: how much will such an atx arm board cost?
<hrw> bdrung: no idea.
<tumbleweed> hrw: right, no wonder its expensive
<hrw> bdrung: you can ask ogra or davidm - they may know more
<hrw> bdrung: as they have access to more HW information then I do.
<hrw> bye guys - have a nice rest of day
<roadmr> hello!
<ara> hey!
<ara> welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly meeting
<ara> probably we have lost most of the people in US and Canada due to the confusion of DST :)
<ara> But, anyways, let's get started
<ara> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 12 16:01:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is ara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ara> Agenda:
<ara> Testing Checkbox 0.13.4
<ara> AOB
<ara> As usual, please, remember to add your agenda topics to the wiki page
<ara> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly/Meetings
<ara> #topic Testing Checkbox 0.13.4
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Testing Checkbox 0.13.4
<ara> We have landed a new version of Checkbox into Ubuntu Precise
<ara> As you know, the default UI interface is now checkbox-qt
<ara> This is the UI version that we are going to be promoting for Ubuntu Friendly, so testing is more than welcome
<ara> If you are running Precise, please, upgrade and run
<ara> checkbox-qt
<ara> Should you find any bugs, please, file them as usual:
<ara> $ ubuntu-bug checkbox
<ara> ..
<ara> Any questions/ comments?
<roadmr> o/
<ara> roadmr, go ahead!
<roadmr> so you said type checkbox-qt and it occurred to me
<roadmr> are we expecting people who use it in the command line to figure that out by themselves?
<roadmr> I'd say yes, but I wonder if we should maybe think about providing a "checkbox" command that symlinks to the preferred UI, maybe using the alternatives mechanism
<roadmr> for GUI users (vast majority, I guess) checkbox is still findable as system testing
<roadmr> ..
<ara> mmm, that's a good idea
<ara> is checkbox currently a binary?
<roadmr> there's no "checkbox" command right now
<roadmr> you need to explicitly use one of the frontends: checkbox-gtk, checkbox-qt or even checkbox-cli
<ara> the problem is that it would require a FFe
<ara> maybe something to think about for 0.14 ;-)
<roadmr> sure, let's see how people get by using it as it is now. Also, no point doing the work if it's not needed. Just something to consider.
<ara> maybe I should stop asking people to "run checkbox-qt" and start talking properly and say "run System Testing"
<ara> my mistake
<ara> :)
<cr3> ara: +1 :)
<cr3> besides, the command-line might give the impression that checkbox is not user friendly
<cr3> ... which would be ironic for something so closely related to Ubuntu Friendly :)
<ara> :)
<ara> OK, anything else on this topic?
<ara> OK, let's move on
<ara> #topic Any Other Business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business?
<roadmr> o/
<ara> roadmr, yes?
<roadmr> hehe :) just want to call attention to this bug
<roadmr> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/checkbox/+bug/951054
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 951054 in Ubuntu Translations "Most of the Checkbox UI is not translatable" [Critical,Triaged]
<roadmr> the new checkbox UI needs some work to make it translatable, and as you can see from the comments there's no clear-cut way to solve it
<ara> roadmr, can you give us a quick summary?
<cr3> roadmr: does this apply to the composite jobs or is there more?
<roadmr> sure: basically the Qt frontend's strings are not imported into the pot file
<roadmr> thus they can't be translated
<cr3> roadmr: isn't that trivial to fix? not that I would know, but there's plenty of precedent for C++ code to be translated
<roadmr> there have been a few suggestions on how to get the strings into the pot file and used by the frontend, but since most of our expertise seems to focus on Gtk apps, I notice a bit of uncertainty on how best to tackle it
<roadmr> some of the comments point to looking into how Unity or Ubuntu One do it.
<roadmr> cr3: yes, but there's also the issue of the .ui file. One option is to translate that to C++ and then pull the strings from that
<ara> roadmr, can you take the action item about talking to the u1 team about how they do it?
<roadmr> roadmr: sure, either I or tiago can handle that
<roadmr> er, ara ^^
<ara> hehehe
<cr3> roadmr is talking to himself again, we're fine as long as he agrees with himself
<ara> #action roadmr or tiagosh to talk to the U1 team to see how to handle translations
<meetingology> ACTION: roadmr or tiagosh to talk to the U1 team to see how to handle translations
<roadmr> cr3: and to answer your question, this is only about the checkbox-qt ui (new code), nothing else is affected (or at least wasn't reported as such)
<roadmr> so to sum up this topic, we need some work / help on translating the Qt UI, and since there's a bug filed about it (external, even, not by us) it should make it into Ubuntu, as long as we commit a fix before either feature or string freeze
<ara> OK, thanks roadmr for raising this critical issue
<roadmr> np :)
<roadmr> ..
<ara> Anything else?
<cr3> roadmr: it can also be seen as a regression, so it should be FFe worthy
<cr3> o/
<ara> cr3, go ahead
<cr3> will the comments in the frontend make it to Precise, or at least is a FFe intended to be requested?
<cr3> ..
<cr3> if we consider that a new feature, we might be able to sneak it as a regression too
<ara> cr3, I don't think it is a critical issue to request a FFe
 * cr3 is in a sneaky mood today
<ara> but that's just my opinion
<cr3> ara: it's pretty critical for the unity folks, they threatened to not use checkbox-qt because of that
<cr3> ara: would you mind if we try to request a FFe but not hold our breath?
<ara> I am fine with it, but as a separate upload, to not delay the bug fixes upload in case it is not accepted
<cr3> ara: good point! roadmr, you cool with that?
<roadmr> yes, sounds ok :)
<cr3> that's it for me then
<ara> awesome! thanks :)
<ara> any other topics?
<ara> going once
<ara> going twice...
<ara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 12 16:25:38 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-12-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-12-16.01.html
<ara> OK, thanks all!
<cr3> cheerio folks!
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello!
<jjohansen> o/
<jdstrand> o/
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 12 18:00:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Kilian Krause (kilian) provided debdiffs for oneiric for fex (DSAs 2414)
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of any previous action items
<jdstrand> ACTION: jdstrand to setup ubuntu-security-staging ppa and communicate to team: done
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> while I did make some headway on MIR audits, I have 8 left, most for the server team. I plan to work on those this week
<jdstrand> I've got an embargoed issue I am working on
<jdstrand> one of these days I hope to be done with both
<jdstrand> I've got a short week this week and am taking friday off
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> and am currently looking at an embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> I released the mysql updates this morning
<mdeslaur> and will pick something from the list once that,s done
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week
<sbeattie> Otherwise, my focus is on apparmor
<sbeattie> That's pretty much it for me.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: quick question
<sbeattie> jdstrand: ayep
<jdstrand> sbeattie: eglibc is still showing up as having 1 medium open. is that the precise CVE you just filed a bug on?
<sbeattie> yes
<jdstrand> ok good, that'll float out then
 * jdstrand is done
<sbeattie> yeah, I just posted the debdiff (packaging branch appears to be out of date)
<sbeattie> thanks.
<sbeattie> micahg: poke
<micahg> it's mozilla release week, I'll be focusing on that and the icedtea regression that I haven't pushed out yet, webkit when that's over
<micahg> tyhicks: poke
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> micahg: do you expect the fix for the icedtea regression to be done this week?
<micahg> jdstrand: yes
<jdstrand> thanks
<tyhicks> I am finally wrapping up the fix for bug 842647
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 842647 in eCryptfs "[git] file blocks duplicated at the end of the file" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/842647
<tyhicks> I've had a hard time manually reproducing it lately and failed several times at getting an automated reproducer for it, so I'm currently building precise and oneiric kernels to let the bug reporters verify the fix for me.
<tyhicks> As long as they say it is ok, all I have left to do is push it to my -next branch and wait for the 3.4 merge window to open to get it upstream
<tyhicks> In other words, I'm mostly done with it. (I'll update the bug when the kernels finish building)
<tyhicks> So my focus this week will be on freetype and gnutls updates
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: Your turn
<jjohansen> Well this week, I am fixing apparmor bugs, sending another iteration of apparmor patches upstream, and working towards closing a few more of my remaining work items.
<jjohansen> I suppose I should also push a apparmor beta3 release out towards the end of the week
<jjohansen> jdstrand: back to you
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bip.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/open-vm-tools.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mn-fit.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/opensaml2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/egroupware-egw-pear.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thanks
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 12 18:21:27 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-12-18.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-12-18.00.html
<micahg> jdstrand: thanks
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<jdstrand> sure thing :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-03-13
 * jokerdino lurks.
<head_victim> jokerdino: not too long now
<jokerdino> I am mentally counting down.
<jokerdino> i hope it doesn't end like the last meeting. :/
<head_victim> jokerdino: as do I
<elky> i'm here, that's 2
<sagaci> heh, another month to wait
<head_victim> Asia/Oceania Meeting should be on
<head_victim> Destine you there?
<elky> afk for a few though, might be back a few minutes late but i'll catch up from scrollback
<Destine> head_victim, yes
<head_victim> Ok that's 3
 * amithkk appears
<head_victim> Need one more
<head_victim> amithkk!!!
<head_victim> We have quorum!
<Destine> head_victim, good!
<jokerdino> head_victim: wait..
<amithkk> Hey head_victim  :D
<jokerdino> we need 4 council members right? :D
<amithkk> And Im not one :)
<amithkk> But I could be one ;)
<head_victim> ejat was meant to be the 4th but he just timed out
<czajkowski> head_victim: I can step in if there arent that many
<amithkk> I
<head_victim> lifeless: ping :) You're the only one else in the channel
<head_victim> czajkowski: if you could for now at least that would ensure we obtain quorum
<amithkk> *I'm Here for the joking dino :)
<czajkowski> head_victim: fine will do.
<head_victim> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 13 10:00:50 2012 UTC.  The chair is head_victim. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<head_victim> #chairs elky Destine czajkowski
<head_victim> In case one of us dc's we can all pick up the slack
<head_victim> #chair elky Destine czajkowski
<meetingology> Current chairs: Destine czajkowski elky head_victim
<amithkk> I sec
<jokerdino> hmm.
<head_victim> #voters elky Destine czajkowski head_victim
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine czajkowski elky head_victim
<head_victim> #link
<head_victim> <meetingology> Current chairs: Destine czajkowski elky head_victim
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<head_victim> That's what I meant to do, if we can all look over the applicants
<amithkk> Its open like before right?
<head_victim> I can't see bonepyaesone, chrisgagnon, oscalation or bodman456 though so I guess we should start with jokerdino
<Destine> head_victim, guess so.
 * jokerdino gets ready.
<head_victim> #topic jokerdino's membership application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: jokerdino's membership application
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jokerdino
<head_victim> jokerdino: please introduce yourself to the baord
<jokerdino> Hi, I am Barneedhar. I am a 18 years old junior college student currently studying in Singapore.
<jokerdino> I am widely known as jokerdino across the Internet. This is my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jokerdino.
<jokerdino> Most of my contributions have been in the Ask Ubuntu, where I mostly do the janitorial work like tidying up the current answers and answering some of the questions myself.
<jokerdino> When I do get bored of Ask Ubuntu, I make use of bilingual skills and translate Ubuntu into Tamil.
 * jokerdino got excited and prepped up the whole thing beforehand.
<head_victim> jokerdino: good to see,
<czajkowski> jokerdino: nice wiki page :)
<jokerdino> czajkowski: Thanks for helping me with the presentation :)
<head_victim> Preparation always makes our task easier
<czajkowski> yup
<czajkowski> it does
<Destine> indeed
<lalatenduM> #accept
<czajkowski> jokerdino: are you part of any locoteams where you could help get others invovled the way you are?
<jokerdino> I am part of the #ubuntu-tam team but since I am out of the country, I can't manually do any help right now.
<oscalation> oscalation here, hope im not late
<jokerdino> But, I do intend to help when I get back to India.
<head_victim> oscalation: we're going through jokerdino right now we'll get to you in a minutre
<Destine> oscalation, we can deal with yours later.
<oscalation> head_victim, Destine thanks
<czajkowski> jokerdino: ok, but just keep in mind things can be done over irc to help teams.
<czajkowski> you do seem to have interacted with  lots of coummities so well done for that
<jokerdino> czajkowski: i lurk on #ubuntu-tam all the time ready to help if they actually come around. :)
<Destine> jokerdino, good for you.
<amithkk> Can I ask
<jokerdino> say amithkk.
<head_victim> Nice to see some testimonials too
<amithkk> Do you blog? What do you focus on blogging
<popey> I'd like to give a cheer for jokerdino, very friendly and helpful person both on AU and outside
<czajkowski> popey: thanks
<head_victim> As someone not overly familiar with AU, is the 4600 a high score?
<jokerdino> head_victim:  i am happy to have a nice community in Ask Ubuntu
<czajkowski> head_victim: I've no other comments or question
<amithkk> head_victim: For his activity period, yes
<jokerdino> head_victim: not to boast but that score means I am in the top 75.
<head_victim> jokerdino: good to know :)
<Destine> head_victim, i have no question now.
<head_victim> I also have no other questions, just took a bit to read most of the info
<jokerdino> and thanks popey !
<popey> np
<amithkk> Somebody missed blogging :)
<head_victim> #vote board members pelase vote on jokerdino's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Please vote on: board members pelase vote on jokerdino's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<jokerdino> hah amithkk due to hectic study schedule, i haven't much time to blog much, but i do blog about Ubuntu on 2buntu.com
<czajkowski> +1 great wiki page and lots of activity
<meetingology> +1 great wiki page and lots of activity received from czajkowski
<elky> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elky
<Destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Destine
<head_victim> +1 nice documentation and interaction across a number of teams
<meetingology> +1 nice documentation and interaction across a number of teams received from head_victim
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: board members pelase vote on jokerdino's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<jokerdino> Thank you. I feel appreciated. :)
<popey> \o/ congratulations jokerdino, keep up the great work.
<benonsoftware> Well done jokerdino
<head_victim> jokerdino: Congratulations on becoming a Ubuntu Member!
<amithkk> Congratz jokerdino
<Destine> jokerdino, congrats
<amithkk> You are now part of the Ubuntu Members
<jokerdino> Thank you all. :)
<amithkk> now... back to unicorns
<jokerdino> I am going to copy this irclog and save it for future reference :)
<head_victim> jokerdino: please do :)
<head_victim> #topic oscalation 's membership application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: oscalation 's membership application
<Destine> i copied mine too. jokerdino
<jokerdino> hah, nice to know :D
<head_victim> oscalation: you have recently applied and asked to come back, to make things easier what has changed since your last application
<oscalation> hey head_victim and others. Im Oscalation. Ive been using ubuntu for many years. My launchpad profile can be found here https://launchpad.net/~nathan1465-5 and Wiki page here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/oscalation. I have a few testimonials. I have been active in Ubuntu Answers and Ubuntu Documentation.  I do some small Beta testing, been testing 12.04 for a while now. I enjoy using Ubuntu and helping other users online. Im slowly moving my
<oscalation>  launchpad karma points closer to my 10k goal. In the near future I hope to meet 10k karma and increase my involvement with documentation. Major changes was that I obtained a few testimonials and did a little work on my wiki page.
<head_victim> oscalation: bear with us, just reading over the documentation
<elky> oscalation, did you see head_victim's question?
<oscalation> no problem. take your time. Yes. Changes since last meeting was that I have corrected my wiki page, increased my activitys in Ubuntu answers, obtain some testimonials to account for my involvement's.
<elky> but you're still not using askubuntu?
<oscalation> No. I do not use AskUbuntu.
<elky> why not?
<head_victim> oscalation: is there any involvement in teams outside of Answers?
<oscalation> No. Other than updating Documentation here and there.
<jokerdino> oscalation: we are a bunch of nice guys in ask ubuntu. :)
<oscalation> i havent made the switch. isnt ask ubuntu = stack exchange?
<amithkk> oscalation: You bet on that
<jokerdino> we will be happy to have you
<amithkk> We will love you there
<Destine> oscalation, i see you participate in #ubuntu-devel, bugs and testing, do you have any involvement with these teams' activities?
<head_victim> Not to say that Answers isn't a worthy project, I'm just trying to see if there's any involvement eslewhere.
<benonsoftware> oscalation: Its like a big family on Stack Exchange :P
<elky> oscalation, yes, it's stack exchange. it's the prefered place because it's more interactive and lets good answers essentially be showcased and easier to find for the next person with the problem
<oscalation> no problem. my involvement with bugs and testing is nothing official, more so ive helped and talked on the mailing list before.
<oscalation> elky, doe ask ubuntu work with ubuntu ssi
<Destine> oscalation, i see.
<jokerdino> oscalation: we are currently working on Ubuntu SSO, but launchpad SSO is already working.
<oscalation> good enough for me
<Destine> jokerdino, advertising huh.
<elky> oscalation, openid with launchpad. it has it's own karma system though
<oscalation> ah dang
<head_victim> Ready to vote?
<elky> karma on launchpad is a huge red herring really
<jokerdino> Destine: No, lol. Just clearing up the doubts :D
<oscalation> i file some bug reports on launchpad but not enough to hit my 10k mark by the end of the year
<czajkowski> head_victim: yes
<head_victim> #vote board members please vote on oscalation 's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Please vote on: board members please vote on oscalation 's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from czajkowski
<Destine> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Destine
<head_victim> +0 I do believe your documentation has improved a little over the last application. I would like to see some involvement in other teams (loco, ask ubuntu, forums, etc) and a few more signed testimonials
<meetingology> +0 I do believe your documentation has improved a little over the last application. I would like to see some involvement in other teams (loco, ask ubuntu, forums, etc) and a few more signed testimonials received from head_victim
<elky> +0 we really would like to see significant (not token) activity outside answers
<meetingology> +0 we really would like to see significant (not token) activity outside answers received from elky
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: board members please vote on oscalation 's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<head_victim> oscalation: I'm happy to work with you on this but I really would like to see some more involvement in more than just one team. If you're only involved in one team I'd expect to see an extreme involvement backed up by a bunch of signed testimonials from the team members.
<oscalation> This is getting to be a little bit much. I am involved, with ubuntu answers, it seems this doenst count even though the application process  claims to be impartial of what form or channel users contribute from.
<Destine> AlanBell, glad to see you here.
<Destine> AlanBell, that deadlock appears again.
<AlanBell> hi, how can I help?
<elky> oscalation, you were asked last time to broaden your horizons.
<Destine> oscalation, and to improve your testimonials.
<oscalation> what your indirectly stating is that My involvement in Ubuntu Answers is hard to measure therefor not accepted. Which should be discussed and added to the application process.
<sagaci>  > #votesrequired 1
<Destine> AlanBell, when we gave 4 +0, it's deadlock...
<head_victim> I've got to be honest, I don't know who Olivier is and only have a passing reference of who Andy is. If I had signed testimonials I could look up who they are.
<head_victim> sagaci: yeah I should have made it +4 before :/
<AlanBell> sagaci is right :)
<sagaci> head_victim: shouldn't it be +1
<sagaci> you don't need everyone to be on the crazytrain :)
<Destine> sagaci, +1 is right.
<oscalation> I added a testimonial from ActionParsnip as requested before, and I got more votes then i believe.
<oscalation> ive improved the requested improvements from the last meeting and obtained less votes
<sagaci> oscalation: all involvement in ubuntu is hard to measure
<head_victim> sagaci: trying to suss that out, possible needs all 4 +1s as we only have bare minimum quorum
<oscalation> Is there a board to dispute this vote with? Im not interested in applying again.
<benonsoftware> oscalation: The Community Council, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil ?
<head_victim> oscalation: if you're unhappy with the result please contact the community council as benonsoftware has just linked
<head_victim> They are the body who oversees the board.
<Destine> oscalation, or Local Council? head_victim
<elky> I'm not at all impressed that membership is being treated as some kind of right.
<oscalation> Thanks. I'll shoo them a message. I'll save the discussion and post it on my wiki for other team involvements. Thanks alot.
<czajkowski> Destine: no not the LC!!
<Destine> czajkowski, thank you for the correction. I am not sure about that.
<czajkowski> Destine: the CC is over all governance boards
<czajkowski> Destine: the LC is over locoteams :)
 * benonsoftware thinks is czajkowski on the CC?
<czajkowski> benonsoftware: I am
 * jokerdino forgot to thank czajkowski for helping out with my wiki page.
<jokerdino> eh, a bit too late?
<czajkowski> jokerdino: thats ok any time
<Destine> jokerdino, no.
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> No vote in progress
<head_victim> Ok so no other applicants are around we'll end the meeting
<Destine> head_victim, thank you.
<sagaci> well done jokerdino
<Destine> jokerdino, congrats.
<head_victim> #Action board members to update the wiki, add jokerdino to the lp team and email results
<meetingology> ACTION: board members to update the wiki, add jokerdino to the lp team and email results
<jokerdino> thanks sagaci
<head_victim> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 13 10:39:53 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-10.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-10.00.html
<benonsoftware> Congrats again jokerdino
<jokerdino> thanks head_victim for the meeting.
<head_victim> oscalation: happy to discuss further as required, we just need to end the meeting for the meeting logs
<jokerdino> and thanks everyone for finishing the quorum.
<Destine> oscalation, you can stay and talk.
<head_victim> Basically I think we've already covered what the issues are though
<jokerdino> i was afraid this meeting wouldn't take place :S
<head_victim> czajkowski: thanks for stepping in, elky and Destine, cheers for being here :)
<oscalation> issues are you want me to be more involved with anything other than ubuntu answers, correct?
 * jokerdino sometimes talks too much.
<head_victim> oscalation: or show a very high level of involvement in ubuntu answers.
<oscalation> i have a high involvement with answers. imho
<head_victim> oscalation: ok, well it doesn't show that in the application. It shows you work on them yes, but to what degree isn't clear.
<oscalation> my  karma points is 7k, that to me is pretty high
<czajkowski> oscalation: we dont look at karma scores
<head_victim> I personally have no idea how hard karma is to achieve in answers, so that in itself isn't useful.
<czajkowski> as they vary and can go up and down very fast
<czajkowski> head_victim: https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/Karma
<oscalation> the application process states
<oscalation> The idea that only technical contributions (like patches or uploads of packages) or only contributions which give rise to karma in Launchpad is incorrect.
<oscalation> one would think this would mean that karma is accepted and used to judge ones involvement
<czajkowski> oscalation: the meeting is over, if you still wish to take this up wth the CC please feel free to do so
<head_victim> czajkowski: yeah but unless you're involved in an area it's hard to judge just how quickly and greatly it varies.
<oscalation> I cant list the thousands of quesions ive answered on my wiki page
<Destine> oscalation, but nobody really backed you up.
<oscalation> ubuntu answers, backs me up   https://answers.launchpad.net/~nathan1465-5
<elky> launchpad doesn't give points for correctness or anything like that, it's really inaccurate.
<oscalation> thats why they mark questions as solved.
<czajkowski> oscalation: no not all questions are marked solved, they are marked answered
<czajkowski> but not everyone goes back and marks them solved.
<oscalation> right, which means that when I resolve a users question they mark it as solved showing some scale in my support and effectiveness
<oscalation> There are many different ways of contributing to Ubuntu. Contributions are valued and recognized whether you contribute to artwork, any of the LoCoTeams, documentation, providing support on the forums, the answers tracker, IRC support, bug triage, translation, development and packaging, marketing and advocacy, contributing to the wiki, or anything else
<Destine> oscalation, indeed.
<oscalation> just to confirm that I understand correctly. Your stating that 7k karma on ubuntu answer is not enough, and that I should look to help in another method/channel/team correct?
<Destine> oscalation, karma is not everything.
<sagaci> try spending half the time you'd usually spend on answers on a different area
 * jokerdino has to leave for dinner. Bye all!
<oscalation> my preffered location for support is in Ubuntu Answers and the application for membership seems to address the question that your chosen method of contributions is irrelevant as ". The whole community needs each other and depends on each other. Whichever way you choose to bring benefit to Ubuntu and help others is very much appreciated."
<oscalation> Destine, karma is everything to me, and if its not good enough or excepeted then the application process page should updated to reflect that.
<head_victim> oscalation: if you had substantial signed testimonials it may be enough
<Destine> oscalation, then you can do something else to increase your karma.
<head_victim> But the testimonails on your page aren't able to be verified (no links to who wrote them) and aren't overly strong.
<sagaci> karma can be argued as a sign of red bull and determination :)
<Destine> oscalation, if you could ask recognizable people to come to meeting, that will be good, too.
<AlanBell> just doing a quick meeting test
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 13 11:19:59 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<AlanBell> #vote are deadlocks working right?
<meetingology> Please vote on: are deadlocks working right?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> +0 maybe
<meetingology> +0 maybe received from AlanBell
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: are deadlocks working right?
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<AlanBell> #votesrequired 1
<meetingology> votes now need 1 to be passed
<AlanBell> #vote are deadlocks just fine the way they are?
<meetingology> Please vote on: are deadlocks just fine the way they are?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> +0 yeah, probably
<meetingology> +0 yeah, probably received from AlanBell
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: are deadlocks just fine the way they are?
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion denied
<AlanBell> #vote so a positive totall is required now?
<meetingology> Please vote on: so a positive totall is required now?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: so a positive totall is required now?
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 13 11:21:10 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-11.19.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-11.19.html
<AlanBell> elky: ^^
<head_victim> AlanBell: yeah sorry I set the voters but forgot to set the votesrequired
<head_victim> I think the contention is if it's +0 then it should be a vote failed?
<AlanBell> well yes, if you tell it that is what you want
<AlanBell> normally if the votes sum to zero a deadlock is the desired meaning
<head_victim> AlanBell: I'll just try to remember to set votesrequired next time
<s3hh> uh, hm.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting doesn't exist?
<s3hh> and there is no meeting log page for last week's meeting?
<s3hh> Daviey: ^
<s3hh> oh wait.  utc.  meeting is in another hour isn't it
<s3hh> $(*&%*(
<justinlw> 'allo
<Daviey> hola.. currently on a call, so split attention :(
<s3hh> roaksoax: you ran the meeting last week?
<roaksoax> s3hh: yeah! Just saw too that there's no meeting page
<roaksoax> s3hh: which appears weird to me cause I'm sure I didn't delete it
<SpamapS> o/
<Daviey> the wiki seems poorly.. please use, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting?rev=601
<s3hh> roaksoax: but, are there any meeting notes?
<roaksoax> s3hh: yes, give me a sec to update... need to look for them
<s3hh> ah ok
<SpamapS> Did we start yet?
<SpamapS> I want to chair!
<SpamapS> sorry I got distracted on my way to the meeting. ;)
<m_3> o/
<arosales> SpamapS: since Daviey is split between a meeting I am sure he would be glad to hand over the chair to you :-)
 * m_3 distracting peeps on the way to the meeting
<Daviey> SpamapS: you have 6 months of chairing :)
<s3hh> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 13 16:05:17 2012 UTC.  The chair is s3hh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<SpamapS> s3hh: who are you?
<s3hh> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<s3hh> your WORST NIGHTMIGHTE
<SpamapS> lol
<s3hh> i'm in ur meetings, takin over ur agendas
<SpamapS> fine
<jamespage> o/
<adam_g> \o
<Daviey> o/
<s3hh> so, i'm looking through the irc log for the action items, hopefully i don't miss any :)
<arosales> o/
<s3hh> add subtopics for release-bugs/BP;s under precise/current development
<s3hh> (believe that's SpamapS ?)
<s3hh> guess not
<arosales> s3hh: I think rbasak and I proposed that last week
<SpamapS> huh?
<arosales> basically to add sub-topics under precise development to include bugs and blueprints we want to discuss
<s3hh> did anyone volunteer to do that?
<s3hh> (noone was assigned)_
<arosales> so going forward we may change the meeting template to have that.  Is that ok with the team going forward?
<s3hh> i think, absolutely
<SpamapS> would be nice so we can prepare for the meeting better
<s3hh> new action, assign to arosales?
<arosales> s3hh: sure, I'll take that one
<s3hh> #action arosales: add subtopics for release-bugs/BP;s under precise/current development
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales: add subtopics for release-bugs/BP;s under precise/current development
<s3hh> arosales: thanks
<s3hh> ok, that's it for actions that i can find in the irc log
<s3hh> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<s3hh> take it away, Daviey or arosales ...
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<arosales> bug 924739
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924739 in squid3 (Ubuntu Precise) "after upgrade from oneiric to precise, previous squid config unused, cannot be used when relocated" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924739
<Daviey> SpamapS: can you iterate through them, then do WI progress?
<SpamapS> sure
<adam_g> arosales: ive begun working on a patch to packaging to help make the transition more obvious to users, should have something proposed here soon
<Daviey> adam_g: great!
<SpamapS> https://launchpad.net/bugs/924739
<arosales> adam_g: Thanks for continuing to chop away on that one.
<SpamapS> bug 883988
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "db migration failing when upgrading glance - trying to create existing tables" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<SpamapS> no zul today, seems like something he'd be working on.
<adam_g> SpamapS: and for that, ive come up with a glance patch
<SpamapS> ahh sweet
<adam_g> just need to do some more thorough testing this week
<SpamapS> bug 893926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<SpamapS> Ugh, thats been open since 11.10
<Daviey> SpamapS: hoped it would be solved from a Debian sync
<SpamapS> Volunteers?
<Daviey> no progress.
<SpamapS> utlemming: I choose you!
<SpamapS> utlemming: think you could dig through and tear out the Ubuntu branding from that package?
<SpamapS> should be a quick job
<SpamapS> while we wait for utlemming's response..
<SpamapS> 925024
<SpamapS> bug 925024
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 925024 in lxc (Ubuntu) "apparmor makes it impossible to install postgresql-common on Precise" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/925024
 * utlemming consents
<SpamapS> Anybody looked at that?
<SpamapS> s3hh: got cycles to triage?
<s3hh> solved in a jjohansen kernel
<SpamapS> oh awesome ok
<SpamapS> s3hh: so perhaps the status should be In Progress ?
<s3hh> maybe - i'll change it
<s3hh> heck maybe fix committed
<SpamapS> utlemming: Thanks, please assign that bug to yourself and.. just so you know, we're all counting on you.. good luck
<SpamapS> ;)
<s3hh> i think it's in the kernel source
<s3hh> jjohansen: can you confirm?
<SpamapS> s3hh: awesome, thanks
<SpamapS> bug 850443
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850443 in python-eventlet (Ubuntu) "Nova API does not listen on IPv6" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850443
<SpamapS> Daviey: ping?
<jjohansen> s3hh: the fix isn't in precise yet, but I will be pushing out the patches today
<SpamapS> I'm going to skip the zentyal bug as its a bigger discussion
<SpamapS> bug 928990
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 928990 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "fsck / dirty filesystem on instance is death" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928990
<Daviey> SpamapS: HEY
<SpamapS> Daviey: ^^ eventlet bug?
<Daviey> STIL AWAIITNG NEWS FROM UPSTREM
<Daviey> gah
<Daviey> Might be deferred
<SpamapS> Daviey: ACK, will that be an SRU candidate?
<Daviey> maybe
<Daviey> SpamapS: it unblocks ipv6 on openstack
<SpamapS> Seems like it has to be.. IPv6 will conceivably be very important over the next 5 years
<Daviey> If it does unblock, the no, not SRU candidate
<Daviey> (ie, if it uncovers other issues)
<SpamapS> smoser: any news on that fsck bug for cloud-init ?
<SpamapS> utlemming: maybe you've been looking at it?
<smoser> SpamapS, no. i've not looked at it.
<smoser> its marked 'High', but...
<smoser> its been that way since, well, forever.
<smoser> :)
<smoser> i'd like to have it fixed though, if someone wanted to grab it
<SpamapS> It sounds like a fun problem to solve actually
<SpamapS> I have basically no time.. but I'd be happy to assist anybody who takes it up.. so .. please somebody reading this, assign that bug to yourself and ping me and/or smoser :)
<SpamapS> moving on
<SpamapS> bug 930916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 930916 in amavisd-new (Ubuntu) "amavis start-stop script fails to stop amavisd" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/930916
<SpamapS> looks like a cherry pick from Debian
<SpamapS> I'll take that.
<SpamapS> bug 880339
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880339 in mysql-5.1 (Ubuntu Precise) "AppArmor profile needs update" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880339
<SpamapS> mysql-5.1 is being removed from precise
<SpamapS> will update as such, moving on
<SpamapS> bug 907197
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907197 in nova (Ubuntu) "ip address can't be injected into the instance when using lxc " [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907197
<adam_g> i think chuck was looking at that
<SpamapS> Yeah I think we'll just defer that to next week
<SpamapS> bug 918791
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 918791 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Precise) "qemu-kvm dies when using vmvga driver and unity in the guest" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/918791
<SpamapS> s3hh: guessing thats you?
<justinlw> serge has a patch, but I'm dubious
<s3hh> justinlw: why dubious?
<s3hh> the only response on qemu m-l has been a tested-by
<s3hh> so i think it's going in upstream
<justinlw> it doesn't fix the real issue.  it prevents the crash
<SpamapS> w00t :)
<SpamapS> justinlw: this is not the segfault you're looking for..
<s3hh> the real issue is vnc can't handle negative mappings
<justinlw> curses.  overruled again. :-)
<s3hh> so we hide those.
<SpamapS> Ok sounds like you guys have that one under control
<SpamapS> bug 901881
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901881 in glance (Ubuntu) "nova and glance should depend on python-keystone" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901881
<adam_g> SpamapS: still blocked on keystone's MIR, i think
<SpamapS> roger..
<SpamapS> since we have so many MIR's filed, lets check in on them
<SpamapS> bug 912861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912861 in txaws (Ubuntu) "[MIR] juju, txaws, txzookeeper" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912861
<SpamapS> jdstrand is taking a look at that one today I believe. :)
<SpamapS> bug 913883
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913883 in zookeeper (Ubuntu) "[MIR] zookeeper, netty, log4cxx" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913883
<SpamapS> and we got a conditional ACK on that one from jdstrand as well.. need to add a bit of documentation but its just about ready (I'm working on that)
<SpamapS> bug 914164
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914164 in horizon (Ubuntu) "[MIR] horizon" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914164
<SpamapS> Bueller? Bueller?
<jdstrand> (I approved txzookeeper btw, looking at txaws now)
<SpamapS> jdstrand: excellent thanks!
<SpamapS> ok horizon was Chuck's mir so we'll skip
<SpamapS> bug 881464
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881464 in keystone (Ubuntu) "[MIR] keystone" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881464
<Daviey> in progress.
<SpamapS> anything to report?
<Daviey> no, still ongoing
<Daviey> It's not a small task
<SpamapS> Indeed!
<Daviey> Being a rewrite from scratch, all previos work was invalidated
<SpamapS> Daviey: its the spice of life baby. :)
<Daviey> \o/
<SpamapS> Ok, so, blueprints.
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-cloud-power-management
<SpamapS> I'm not familiar with that one..
<jdstrand> (keystone has a conditional ACK for main-- but there are a lot of failing tests that might be what Daviey is referring to)
<Daviey> SpamapS: that is really deferred.. but i've been unwilling to do so.
<SpamapS> Daviey: maybe take an action to reach out to Uzuul?
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-install-experience
<SpamapS> Daviey: not that any of that can be POSTPONED .. but.. any updates?
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-juju-charm-testing
<Daviey> SpamapS: they've either been done or postponed.
<Daviey> (updated)
<Daviey> where postponed == no longer relevant
<SpamapS> roger
<SpamapS> So for charm testing.. there are some merge proposals against juju that, once ACK'd , will allow moving forward with the rest of charm testing.
<SpamapS> Things to make it easier to write the test runner
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-ceph
<SpamapS> I'm afraid we may not be able to ship kvm+librados in 12.04 because ceph is not in main yet...
<s3hh> :(
<s3hh> but agreed
<SpamapS> We have juju, big chunks of openstack, and then ceph .. all stacked on top of the MIR team .. so I think the first two have to take precedence.
<s3hh> agreed
<SpamapS> jdstrand: anything we can do to ease the MIR team's burden?
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-openstack-testing
<SpamapS> Collaborate on defining charm use workflow between OpenStack and Ubuntu: TODO
<SpamapS> adam_g: whats the status of that? Can we do that de-coupled from the precise release? (as in, POSTPONED) ?
<adam_g> SpamapS: i think that will likely happen at the openstack design summit next month
<jamespage> adam_g, agreed
<SpamapS> ok, sounds like that should stay TODO and will be sorted then
<adam_g> SpamapS: but yeah, its not tied to the release schedule. so..
<SpamapS> adam_g: can you add a  "Discussion pending at ODS" note or something to explain that?
<adam_g> sure
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-automated-boot-testing
<SpamapS> I plan to work on that this week, as my reboot tests have never worked right. :(
<jamespage> SpamapS, I had a look at that yesterday - lets talk  (its not working ATM)
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-orchestra
<jamespage> (I can fix it tho)
<SpamapS> "50% of 50" ??
<SpamapS> jamespage: Oh! you have an idea? I think its probably something simple. :)
<jamespage> SpamapS, yep - I know what the issue is
<SpamapS> jamespage: its just such a monstrous thing to spin up a test env (too bad its not charmed.. ;)
<jamespage> SpamapS, meh - its not to bad
<SpamapS> jamespage: ok, post meeting then. :)
<jamespage> yep
<SpamapS> roaksoax: the orchestra blueprint.. it seems a bit behind schedule..I see a lot of "raise MIR if needed" .. whats the status there?
<roaksoax> SpamapS: waiting for MaaS to MIR the rest
<SpamapS> ok cool
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-kvm-document-suggested-changes
<s3hh> still holding off on that until bugs and features are in check
<s3hh> iow, it's not subject to any freezes, so i'm keeping it for last
<SpamapS> s3hh: roger, just poking you because it shows up on status.ubuntu.com as being a bit behind
<s3hh> aqctually i may do a first run this week or next
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-openstack-charms
<s3hh> SpamapS: i may postpone parts of it
<s3hh> and only do the io benchmarks this cycle
<SpamapS> s3hh: sooner you do that, the better we know what else we don't have to postpone. :)
<adam_g> SpamapS: the swift charm is really something i think we need done this cycle, but the rest are either nice-to-haves  or waiting on collcation/subordinates
<SpamapS> adam_g: openstack charms look like there is a lot of opportunistic work there to do if you have spare cycles ...
<s3hh> SpamapS: will do it today
<SpamapS> adam_g: hazmat/bcsaller/jimbaker are sprinting this week, I expect subordinates to land as a result. :)
<adam_g> party time
<jamespage> \o/
<SpamapS> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-juju-roadmap
<SpamapS> This one is actually looking pretty good compared to 2 weeks ago
<SpamapS> constraints has landed!!
<SpamapS> And if you look at the In Progress bugs there, those are in review actually.
<SpamapS> So, huzzah, we should have it soon. :)
<SpamapS> ok we are short on time, so I'm going to move on
<SpamapS> s3hh: thanks Mr. Chekov.. take us out.
<s3hh> thanks SpamapS
<s3hh> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<s3hh> uds coming up of course
<arosales> m_3 @ MountainWestRuby
<arosales> Mrch 15 - 17
<s3hh> minor chance that i may be going to end-user l-f summit to query end users on their usage of cgroups
<s3hh> not sure when, hoping i can trick someone else into going
<arosales> SpamapS: 2 charm schools done in the past week
<SpamapS> YES
<SpamapS> yesterday went quite well
<arosales> 1 webinar, and 1 in SF
<SpamapS> write-up to juju@l.u.c coming :)
<SpamapS> not SF
<SpamapS> Santa Clara != SF :)
<arosales> Santa Clara
<arosales> sorry
<arosales> SpamapS: glad to hear it went well
<SpamapS> its like calling New Jersey New York ;)
<arosales> :-)
<arosales> noted
<SpamapS> Santa Clara, the land of 1000 chain restaurants
<m_3> best indian food... ever
<s3hh> uh, sorry, i'm dragging
<s3hh> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<s3hh> hggdh: hi, are you around?
<s3hh> moving on,
<s3hh> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<s3hh> hey smb
<smb> Hey. I have been hacking up a few changes for xen and libvirt to avoid oddities related to pxe-boot of e1000 emulation nics and the use of any other than the default emulation through libvirt (which I could use hallyn (or s3hh or whatever he is called by then) to find out whether and how this could flow back upstream) bug 949028
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 949028 in Ubuntu "libvirt: xen: never use type=ioemu for vif definitions" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/949028
<smb> On completely unrelated topic /me just wants to express his unamusedness with ap
<smb> t-cacher-ng's performance in precise (but was the same in oneiric). A good deal
<smb> of my installs fail because it looses its mind... Nothing really that would be r
<smb> elevant here but I wanted to take the chance to rant. :)
<s3hh> (i'll be honest i still don't understand your ipxe request, but i'll re-read it all more closely)
<s3hh> interesting - i use it all over the place for lxc, and haven't really noticed any probs
<smb> s3hh, We can talk about it later too
<SpamapS> smb: bug #? I also am not super happy with it
<smb> Beside of that I got nothing else.
<SpamapS> Its fine in single threads
<smb> SpamapS, Not yet, but I really should
<SpamapS> Ok
<SpamapS> we're almost out of time.. so..
<s3hh> anyone have questions to ask smb?
<s3hh> ok,
<s3hh> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<s3hh> rbasak: anything?
<rbasak> Nothing to report.
<rbasak> Any questions for me?
<s3hh> thanks
<s3hh> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<s3hh> any?
<s3hh> 3
<s3hh> 2
<s3hh> 1
<jamespage> zentyal
<SpamapS> yes!
<SpamapS> looks like its about ready
<jamespage> I think its almost there - just need to sort out the transition from ebox packages and its ready to upload
<SpamapS> huats: nicely done
<SpamapS> jamespage: you too! my hero!
<SpamapS> FFe is granted too
<jamespage> FFe approved and archive admin found to review - thanks tumbleweed and  Riddell
<jamespage> done
<s3hh> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<s3hh> Tuesday mar 20, 16:00 UTC
<s3hh> thanks all
<s3hh> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 13 17:00:29 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-16.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-16.05.html
<arosales> s3hh: thanks for charing: SpamapS thanks for running down the bugs and blueprints
<SpamapS> s3hh: thanks.. ;)
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 13 17:00:54 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<apw> o/
<ppisati> o/
<herton> o/
<cking> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<sforshee> o/
<henrix> o/
<bjf> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> P/omap4: a new kernel (3.2.0-1408.11) is out - it contains a buch of CVE fixes and it has been rebased on Ubuntu-3.2.0-18.2 (vanilla 3.2.9).
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-distro-team-ubuntu-12.04-beta-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw        || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 1 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara  || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Beta-2 work items.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> nothing to report this week
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We uploaded the 3.2.0-18.29 kernel last Friday and we have just
<ogasawara> rebased master-next to upstream stable v3.2.10 (minus 1 patch which
<ogasawara> introduces a build failure).  Beta-2 Freeze is next Thurs, March 22.  I
<ogasawara> plan to upload this Friday and hope that this will be the kernel we use
<ogasawara> for Beta-2.  Should any additional patches land which are deemed
<ogasawara> necessary for Beta-2 we would have enough time to upload again no later
<ogasawara> than Tues, March 20.  Any uploads after that are subject to approval by
<ogasawara> the release team.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Mar 22 - Beta-2 Freeze (~1 week)
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Mar 29 - Beta-2 (~2 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> Currently we have 71 CVEs on our radar, two new CVEs were added this week.
<apw> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<apw>  
<apw> In addition to the two new CVEs one gained an additional fix which has
<apw> also been applied.  Overall the backlog is unchanged this week:
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf>  
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (Mar. 06):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy    - 2.6.24-31.100 - Regression testing; A single CVE.
<bjf>  * Lucid    - 2.6.32-40.87  - Regression testing; CVEs, eCryptfs, NFSv4, block, and other misc. fixes.
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-32.67  - Promote to -updates; A single CVE.
<bjf>  * Natty    - 2.6.38-13.57  - Security pocket review; CVEs, eCryptfs and some other fixes.
<bjf>  * Oneiric  - 3.0.0-16.29   - Verification; CVEs and 3 stable upstream releases.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 13 17:04:31 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-13-17.00.html
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<apw> jsalisbury, thanks
<lifeless> head_victim: sorry, I have been sick so far this week; just getting back to work today
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-03-14
<DreamWB> Hi
<DreamWB> How can i be one of Membership ?
<DreamWB> I've from thailand
<DreamWB> and i'm not ensure to convert the timezome
<DreamWB> of UTC into GMT
<DreamWB> Oh sorry I've see the structions
<DreamWB> Apologize for my less participate
 * slangasek waves
<infinity> o/
 * stgraber waves
 * ogra_ shores
<cjwatson> ~~~___~~~
<infinity> There seem to be some snakes on your plane.
<cjwatson> there's a complex analysis joke in there somewhere
<jodh> hi
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Mar 14 15:04:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson)
<slangasek> cjwatson ev stgraber barry ogra jodh doko slangasek infinity bdmurray
<cjwatson> Release meeting:
<cjwatson>  - Do a better job of writing hybrid MBRs on Intel Macs (bug 856826).
<cjwatson>  - Reuse existing swap partitions and EFI System Partitions rather than creating new ones (bug 311299).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 856826 in parted (Ubuntu Precise) "'guided resize' partioning leaves Mac unbootable" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/856826
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 311299 in partman-auto (Ubuntu) "automatic partitioning does not reuse existing swap / boot partitions" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/311299
<cjwatson>  - Arrange for Ubuntu Studio images to reconfigure jackd on boot (bug 923810).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923810 in casper (Ubuntu) "preseeding passwd/user-default-groups is ineffective" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923810
<cjwatson>  - Work on several EFI partitioning bugs (bug 769669, bug 811485).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 769669 in partman-efi (Ubuntu) "Installer should not format an existing EFI System Partition" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/769669
<cjwatson> Other:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 811485 in partman-efi (Ubuntu) "EFI SYSTEM PARTITION should be atleast 100 MiB size and formatted as FAT32, not FAT16" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/811485
<cjwatson>  - Planning for installer sprint.
<cjwatson>  - Some work on setting interview problems.
<cjwatson>  - Various installer translation updates.
<cjwatson>  - Multiarch fixes for pciutils (bug 948205) and libidl (bug 931388).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 948205 in pciutils (Debian) " './usr/include/pci/config.h' is different from the same file on the system" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/948205
<cjwatson>  - Improve debootstrap's handling of corrupted downloads (bug 954197).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 931388 in wine1.4 (Ubuntu Precise) "overenthusiastic adoption of "Depends: cpp:any" syntax" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/931388
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 954197 in base-installer (Ubuntu) "base system installation is not robust against transient network failures" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/954197
<cjwatson>  - Upgrade fixes for desktopcouch (bug 864328, bug 900570).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 864328 in desktopcouch (Ubuntu) "package python-desktopcouch-records 1.0.7-0ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/share/pyshared/desktopcouch/__init__.py', which is also in package python-desktopcouch 0.6.4-0ubuntu3.2" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/864328
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 900570 in desktopcouch (Ubuntu) "undeclared package conflict between python-desktopcouch-application (in precise) and python-desktopcouch (in lucid)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/900570
<cjwatson>  - Currently trying to get my head around some more Mac partitioning bugs: bug 855871 and bug 856763.  Brain hurts, send cake.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 855871 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Grub install fails after manual xfs partitioning" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855871
<cjwatson> ..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 856763 in parted (Ubuntu Precise) "Mac cannot boot after manual partitioning, unless using ext4" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/856763
<ev> - Ported the daisy code from Pika to amqplib, as that's what all other
<ev>   Canonical services are using.
<ev> - Build out a configuration for retracing machines.
<ev> - Bug fixes in the WSGI applications (crash and core file acceptance).
<ev> - Packaging oops-repository, python-pycassa, and python-thrift for IS (RT 48667)
<ev> - Refactored whoopsie and broke out some separate utility code, adding tests
<ev>   for all of it along the way.  This was in support of fixing how we determine
<ev>   whether or not to submit a crash. Previously, we were only sending them on
<ev>   the first instance. We now send it every time that crash occurs.
<ev> - Did research and performance measurements around counting the contents of
<ev>   crash buckets in Cassandra.
<ev> - Finished initial bucketing code. There may be room for improvement around
<ev>   how we're counting and recording bucket sizes, but some real idea from the
<ev>   deployment will give me a much better indication.
<ev> - Built a test harness around the WSGI applications (crash and core file
<ev>   acceptance). Already quite a few serious fixes from this. Yay.
<ev> - Started moving Cassandra-facing functionality into oops-repository, per my
<ev>   discussion with Robert last week where he made the suggestion to use it
<ev>   alone as the layer over the database.
<ev> - Meeting with Amanda to discuss keeping her in the loop with respect to
<ev>   changes to ubuntu-restricted-*
<ev> (done)
<stgraber> Bugs, bugs, bugs...
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - RELEASE: Uploaded new isc-dhcp, converting to upstart and creating separate IPv4 and IPv6 jobs
<stgraber>  - Investigated bug 919068 (bridge_ports all not working at boot time)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 919068 in bridge-utils (Ubuntu) "bridge_ports all doesn't work at boot time" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/919068
<stgraber> - Installer
<stgraber>  - RELEASE (generic): Bugfix work on ubiquity, casper and wubi
<stgraber>  - Went through wubi merge proposals, merged a lot of bugfixes from bcbc
<stgraber>  - Started going through the wubi bugs too
<stgraber>  - Spent some time implementing bluetooth support in the installer
<stgraber>  - Fixed the keyboard indicator
<stgraber>  - Fixed a few bugs in casper related to persistent usb stick
<stgraber>  - Various other ubiquity fixes and a few improvements to tests
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Worked/debugged apparmor and LXC with the security team, hoping to have an updated lxc today
<stgraber> - TPM
<stgraber>  - Started digging into opencryptoki, fixed bug 926305
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 926305 in opencryptoki (Ubuntu) "fails to load modules for pkcs11 backends" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/926305
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - RELEASE: Merged James' friendly-recovery branch adding support for LVM and APT status to the system-summary screen
<stgraber>  - Had to deal with a security issue found in LTSP, fixing upstream and in Ubuntu + CVE and other paperwork
<stgraber>  - Patch pilot on Monday
<stgraber> - TODO this week
<stgraber>  - Work on some ubiquity debugging wiki pages
<stgraber>  - Continue working on bugs
<stgraber> (DONE)
<doko> heh, barry doesn't seem to be awake
<doko> ogra: ^^^
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_> * not gotten to oem-config issues, will do so next week
<ogra_> * trying to stopwatchg the initrd made me struggle on bug 936667 (--no-log helps)
<ogra_> * did some more weeding through ubuntu-arm buglist (starts to look more sane)
<ogra_> * missed my piloting on monday, will try to do before teh weekend
<ogra_> * worked on Bug 948163 (fix in local branch, pending a push)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 936667 in upstart (Ubuntu) "Upstart early job logging causes boot failure for systems with no initramfs (error is "No available ptys")" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/936667
<ogra_> * lots of community support issues (helped RTC issues with arm devices)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 948163 in casper (Ubuntu) "System suspends upon closing the lid while installing/partitioning using a live CD" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/948163
<ogra_> * looked into a few ac100 installer bugs
<ogra_> * booked my flight to UDS
<ogra_> tod:
<ogra_> * oem-config (this week for sure)
<ogra_> * finish initrd timing
<ogra_> * lookj into fsck delay on boot issue
<ogra_> done
<jodh> Off sick Monday. Been hit by bug 751689 this week which has hampered
<jodh> efforts somewhat until I realized what was happening. Investigated
<jodh> bug 940396. Initially thought it might be multi-arch related, but
<jodh> seemingly its a subtle dependency bug: mvo has now recreated and
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 751689 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "ThinkPads overheat due to slow fans when on 'auto'" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/751689
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 940396 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "lucid -> precise main all failed to upgrade: dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of kde-runtime" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/940396
<jodh> identified fixes. Worked on bug 508083 (currently testing). Writing some
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 508083 in eglibc (Ubuntu) "cron crashed with SIGSEGV in __pthread_initialize_minimal_internal()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/508083
<jodh> new tests for Upstart as a precursor to syncing branches and updating
<jodh> Ubuntu package.
<jodh> â
<jodh>  
<doko> - PyCon week, report hopefully later ...
<doko> - GCC-4.7 release candidates
<doko> - GCC-4.4.7 release
<doko> - eglibc ARM getcontext/setcontext patch
<doko> - libgo fix for ARM
<doko> - gdb Linaro update
<doko> - went through the list of MIR's (three pending)
<doko> - update python2.7 and 3.2 to the release candidates
<doko> - package python3.3.0 alpha1 (doko/toolchain PPA)
<doko> - PyCon sprint work: namespace peps, python core cross compilation
<doko> (done)
<cjwatson> ogra_: hm, jodh was working on 936667 as well - missing coordination?
<cjwatson> ogra_: oh, sorry, never mind that, I was confused by the interleaving of your comments and ubottu's - ignore me
<ogra_> cjwatson, i wasnt working on it, i was affected by it with my other stuff :)
<ogra_> but the --no-log option seems to help so i can move forward now
<ogra_> (only saw the original bug # today adn got some help from that)
<infinity> slangasek: *nudge*
<slangasek> still reading, gimme a second ;)
<jodh> ogra_: just ping me if you see any other init oddities ;)
<ogra_> jodh, i only see serial consoles that dont start by default *g*
<infinity> jodh: I have this weird issue where, a couple of years ago, my sysvinit was replaced.  Does that count?
<jodh> infinity: :)
<slangasek>  * RELEASE: transition soprano off of iodbc (bug #901638)
<slangasek>  * acpi-support upload to support a couple more events not handled elsewhere in the system (bug #931614, #953296)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901638 in soprano (Debian) "Remove iodbc2 (causes upgrade failure from Oneiric to Precise)" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901638
<slangasek>  * add back a few dependencies to ia32-libs for compatibility (bug #946381, #953404)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 931614 in acpi-support (Ubuntu) "ASUS backlit keys buttons don't work" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/931614
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 953296 in acpi-support (Ubuntu) "Elantech touchpad cannot be toggled" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/953296
<slangasek>  * fix a multiarch issue with libvisual-plugins that was causing weird behavior on upgrade (bug #947639)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 946381 in ia32-libs (Ubuntu) "Should install libxtst6:i386" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/946381
<slangasek>  * fix a regression in python2.7, bdb support dropped in the latest merged (bug #440889)
<slangasek>  * SRU nis to lucid, fixing longstanding issues resulting from it not being converted to upstart
<slangasek>  * planning for installer sprint
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 953404 in ia32-libs (Ubuntu) "ia32-libs in precise is missing libgconf-2-4:i386" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/953404
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 947639 in apt (Ubuntu) "package libgudev-1.0-0 1:175-0ubuntu5 failed to install/upgrade: libgudev-1.0-0:amd64 1" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/947639
<slangasek>  * partner archive work
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 440889 in python2.7 (Ubuntu Precise) "software-center crashed with ImportError in /usr/lib/python2.7/bsddb/__init__.py: No module named _bsddb" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/440889
<slangasek> (done)
 * doko thanks for the bdb fix ...
<jodh> ogra_: well, technically I provided review feedback on that feature and it hasn't yet been acted on. I'll try to look at it but it's not on my priority list right now. Maybe SpamapS has some spare cycles?
<slangasek> doko: sure
<infinity> Done this week:
<infinity>  - Fixed armhf FTBFS of qtwebkit-source
<infinity>  - Worked on packaging new vmware-view-client
<infinity>  - Worked on cdimage bugs
<infinity>  - Patch piloted on Friday, including sponsoring a bunch of multi-arch build-dep chain fixes for cross-bootstrapping
<infinity>  - Started looking into grub upgrade bug (bug 759545)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 759545 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "user prompted to update unmodified grub configuration during Ubuntu server upgrade" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/759545
<infinity>  - Started working on bug 876626
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876626 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "Unlocking the second crypto disk (/home) echos password on console" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876626
<infinity>  - Reviewed armadaxp kernel mess for license sanity (3.2 should go in today)
<infinity>  - Review flash-kernel changes for calxeda support (sponsoring today)
<ogra_> jodh, well, i thought the .conf file we had was fine, isnt it just a matter of including it in the package ?
<infinity>  - Generic archive admin and other random bits
<infinity>  - Discussions with IS and webops about shuffling ARM buildds, upgrading some (or all) distro buildds to precise, and other fun projects
<infinity>  - Discovered I need to keep better track of what I've done, so these cut and paste reports are a bit more useful
<infinity>  - PS: &*^!$@ daylight savings
<infinity> (done)
<ogra_> infinity, move to russia !
<doko> infinity, does the discussion include non ARM buildds as well?
<infinity> doko: The upgrading discussion?  Yes.
<jodh> ogra_: https://code.launchpad.net/~clint-fewbar/ubuntu/natty/upstart/add-serial-console/+merge/46191/comments/104693
<slangasek> infinity: do you know if anyone has a master list of outstanding issues preventing cross-bootstrapping?
<infinity> slangasek: wookey does, but I don't have the URL off the top of my drowsy head.
<infinity> slangasek: Poke him, or poke me after caffeine. ;)
<slangasek> ok
<bdmurray> bug triage
<bdmurray> research into bug 945826 regarding sources.list on a live cd
<bdmurray> updated dash bug reporting guidelines to mention unity
<bdmurray> updated screenshots on h.u.c/community/BugReportingGuidelines
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 945826 in apt (Ubuntu) "12.04 AMD64 Beta Live CD sources.list has a bad entry" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/945826
<bdmurray> added in 'ubuntu-bug -w' at h.u.c/community/BugReportingGuidelines
<bdmurray> recorded a how to confirm a bug screencast and uploaded to ubuntucontributers youtube channel
<bdmurray> investigation into to no package bug reports (getting autoconfirmed)
<bdmurray> uploaded new version of firefox-lp-improvements after fixing karma_suffix
<ogra_> jodh, oh, i didnt see that
<bdmurray> created hottest bugs charts for package sets
<bdmurray> modified hottest and recent package bug charts to have a date updated in them
<bdmurray> made links bold if there is a spike in this week's bug reporting volume compared to last week in recent package bug tasks
<bdmurray> created a team assigned bug report using cbd / arsenal
<bdmurray> bug control application review for Vadim Rutkovsky
<bdmurray> * done *
<slangasek> cjwatson: does 945826 ring any bells with you?
<bdmurray> I'm not sure apt-cdrom knows about gz files
<cjwatson> it's not the first time this has broken, I think, but it *definitely* used to work
<cjwatson> e.g. it's faintly reminiscent of bug 924182
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924182 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "d-i images (server, alternate) failed to install: no kernels found" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924182
<cjwatson> let me just see if I can reproduce 945826 ...
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> doko: https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=50414
<cjwatson> depending on what you mean by upgrading I guess :)
<cjwatson> https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=51115 is for the software upgrade
<slangasek> [TOPIC] installer vsprint
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: installer vsprint
<slangasek> installer virtual sprint next week
<slangasek> (hmm, should that be 'virtual sprint, foundations' --> vsprintf?)
 * cjwatson awards slangasek one-third of a point
 * infinity groans.
<cjwatson> have people looked at the first-line bug lists I suggested?  do we think it should be broadened a bit?
<slangasek> please be sure to read through the wiki page that's been sent around with information on prep work to do ahead of time
<slangasek> cjwatson: :)
<cjwatson> I just wanted to get the most urgent ones down
<slangasek> in particular, you should have both an image and a machine (VM or hardware) to install it on, ready to go Monday morning, not spend the morning downloading ISOs
<slangasek> cjwatson: the bug lists looked to me like the right place to start
<cjwatson> I've spoken to Nicholas Skaggs about some testing arrangements
<cjwatson> actually I wanted to talk through that with Steve yesterday but we missed our call due to the bandwidth pixies
<doko> does kvm work as VM?
<slangasek> yes
<cjwatson> we've agreed that at least we're going to try to organise something along the lines of milestone ISO testing, only based on the daily (or more) builds we emit during the sprint
<cjwatson> and that we'll prepare a daily changelist for him so that his minions can do more focused testing work
<slangasek> ah, cool
<cjwatson> further ideas welcome
<cjwatson> yes, kvm is fine for most purposes, it's what I use.  (I haven't managed to get it to pretend to be EFI well enough to boot Linux yet though, despite some attempts today)
<stgraber> I'm running most tests in kvm too and some others (webcam, wireless, ...) in a LXC container with access to the required devices (and some hacks in ubiquity to run just the steps I need)
<ev> so I would like to suggest that we require any changes made as part of the installer mini sprint go through code review in LP
<ev> ideally, with two pairs of eyes on it
<cjwatson> normally I'd suggest avoiding a monoculture, but I don't think it's especially harmful in this case - more important for people to be able to do development efficiently
<jodh> I'm also using kvm, but doesn't that preclude Unity 3D?
<cjwatson> I think one review should be sufficient, but I agree that we should use the review system
<slangasek> jodh: I don't expect any of our installer bugs are going to be unity related
<cjwatson> jodh: yes; for some bugs it matters, for most it doesn't
<slangasek> or at least s/any/many/
<jodh> slangasek: I wasn't necessarily thinking of the installer per se, more the resultant experience. But that was another question - when does an installer test terminate? On first reboot?
<cjwatson> we aren't doing testing, we're doing developmenet
<cjwatson> -e
<jodh> or rather on first login after first reboot?
<ogra_> on first successfull boot after installation ;)
<slangasek> jodh: this isn't for installer testing, but for installer development :)
<ev> ideally, I
<cjwatson> and we're not working on the whole experience, but on the installer :)
<ev> ideally, I'd like to see us move towards doing code review across all our projects, and I think this sprint would be a good trial run of that
<ogra_> but we'll test the results of our work
<slangasek> ev: agreed, I think this is a good idea
<cjwatson> yes; but really, it's not likely that you'll need to get far enough for unity 3d to work
<ogra_> indeed
<cjwatson> flip side of course is that ev, stgraber, and I will probably be spending a lot of time doing reviews; but that's probably all to the good
<ev> well, I would hope that we all do reviews
<infinity> ev: As long as you mean "move toward a culture of code review" rather than "move to awkward processes that force busy work in the name of mandatory code review", I'm with you.
<ev> different people will approach from different angles
<ev> but yes, you're probably right :)
<cjwatson> sure, but realistically ...
<ev> absolutely
<slangasek> jodh: many of these bugs are going to be quite self-contained; we'll want end-to-end testing after the fixes have landed, but that's why we'll have community testers coordinated to stand by
<ev> but that's what I'm getting at with suggesting that two people review. This way we're all looking at each other's code, not just those of us most familiar with it.
<slangasek> but you'd be hard pressed to regress the post-install desktop by fixing a bug with manual partitioning
<cjwatson> ev: well, let's apply common sense, there's a wide range of complexity here
<ev> sure
 * infinity is glad he knows nothing about d-i and ubiquity.
<cjwatson> I'm happy for reviews of complex changes to say "oh and somebody else should look at this", although I also think it's important to keep the sprint pace moving along
 * infinity wistles nonchalantly and hides in the corner.
<ogra_> we'll teach you !
<slangasek> ev: so you're suggesting two reviewers, in addition to the author?
<stgraber> +1 on common sense ;) FWIW I've always been reviewing any commit in the ubiquity branch before uploading and I'm guessing others might have done so too, we really just need to make sure it always happens and that when uploader == author, someone else looks at it before upload at least
<slangasek> I was thinking 1 reviewer, + author, should be enough
<slangasek> and shouldn't slow us down
<stgraber> I'm not against using separate branches and doing merges and MP review on LP but we'll have to adapt our workflow a bit and make sure the commit and see how we can get CIA work with that :)
<slangasek> I do think that we should view this as an opportunity for people who haven't done a lot of installer work to learn by reviewing, too
<cjwatson> should still land trivial changes directly, as long as we have a reasonably shared understanding of that
<infinity> stgraber: To be honest, I think MPs kinda slow the whole thing down, but maybe I'm alone in that.
<cjwatson> (cf. e.g. Launchpad dev process)
<ogra_> infinity, ++
 * ogra_ prefers IRC and pastebin
<stgraber> infinity: you're not alone :) I think MPs are fine for new features, not for bugfixes
<ev> slangasek: yes. I think it solves the problem of only people who are intimately familiar with a codebase being the reviewers. I'm trying to increase our understanding of each other's silos with this.
<ev> I don't think it would slow us down, as these are bug fixes. They should be fairly isolated. Equally, I think once it becomes a reflex for us to engage in code review, the pace will pick up drastically.
<stgraber> infinity: I much prefer IRC + pastebin for trivial fixes review, just before commiting the change
<infinity> stgraber: Unless it's a complex merge/branch that should obviously not be landed without review, for fear of exploding everything everyone else is working on.
<infinity> stgraber: Yeah, agreed.  Lightweight, FTW.
<ev> But I do not pretend to know for certain how it will pan out. That's why it's an experiment :)
<slangasek> ev: well, time spent reviewing is time not spent writing your own code; so yes, I do expect there to be some slowdown no matter how we structure it
<slangasek> but this is a good opportunity to subjectively measure that slowdown
<infinity> ev: To be fair, most people who understand a programming language or two can review 75% (or more, made up statistics are fun) of proposed fixed just based on comparing the changelog's description of the change to the logical path the code takes.
<ev> sorry, I meant to imply that it wont waste time. I would argue that time spent reviewing is time spent learning.
<stgraber> if we have everyone in #ubuntu-installer, doing "bzr diff | pastebinit" before a commit and posting the URL in the channel should work fine and is really quick to do
<slangasek> since we'll have people with varying degrees of experience with the code, and we want people to learn from their peers - exactly
<stgraber> the main issue with that is tracability as we don't have a clear MP with the votes but well ... we have the IRC log :)
<ev> infinity: exactly, which is why I think it's entirely reasonable that we put two bodies on every merge.
<ev> stgraber: what's wrong with the LP code review stuff? (other than it doesn't do inline comments)
<infinity> ev: That was actually my argument for why you only need one reviewer, even if that reviewer isn't an old skool ubuntu-installer committer. :)
<infinity> ev: LP's code review stuff is just a bit heavyweight for a 3-line patch.
<ev> infinity: my thought there is that when a second person comes in to review the code, they're going to be inclined to approach the code from a different angle than the one already covered
<slangasek> ev: I don't think we should *mandate* two peers for each change, and I'm inclined to agree with cjwatson that for trivial changes we might land them with no review at all... but if any of you guys have a change that's particularly expository of an aspect of the installer code, no reason it can't be shared around
<stgraber> ev: takes longer. You need to commit, push a separate branch, send a merge proposal, wait for LP to diff the code, have people review, then merge, commit and push
<ev> and that by just reading what's already been said, they may learn something
<infinity> ev: I spend more time pushing branches around than I do creating, reviewing, and committing the fix.
<stgraber> ev: instead of doing the changes, bzr diff | pastebinit, posting to IRC, wait for a +1, commit, push
<cjwatson> having review is more important than how the review is done
 * slangasek nods
<infinity> cjwatson: Crazy talk.  Next you'll imply that a submitted patch is more important than the format, and the entire open source elite will crumble.
<cjwatson> so for complex things, sure, let's use merge proposals, otherwise, I'm easy
<slangasek> stgraber: merge proposals have an advantage too, however, in that if the reviewer is happy, there's no additional round-trip... just land the branch directly.  So there's a bit more overhead for the author and a bit less for the reviewer
<ev> sure, I agree with Colin's point on having review being more important. But I would like to see some clear structure to this. My hope is that we made code review a core part of what we do.
<infinity> cjwatson: I think that's the same opinion stgraber and I had. :P
<ev> Doesn't bzr have commands to automatically propose a branch?
<slangasek> yes
<cjwatson> structure is there to serve us, not the other way round :)
<slangasek> sometimes they work :)
<ev> lol
<ev> cjwatson: sure, I just mean, it'd be great if there was a page I could go to in order to see the list of things awaiting comment
<ev> rather than having to parse scrollback
<ev> in the general sense
<infinity> Like I said before, I want a culture of review, but I'm annoyed by attempts to force process on the whole thing.
<ev> obviously pastebin will be easy when we're in sprint mode
<infinity> MPs are awesome for complex merges/features.
<infinity> Especially things that require a lot of iteration.
<ev> mind you, I'm flexible on all of this. I am by no means saying this is the one true way to do everything.
<cjwatson> yeah, I'll be kind of annoyed if I have to run say debconf-updatepo runs through MPs :-)
<cjwatson> just want to make sure we're being sensible about it is all
<infinity> We should gate all installer commits through PQM while we're at it.  *nod*
<ev> understandable. But I'd also like to make the few lines patch fairly easy to do a MP on while still being visible in the big queue of things
<ev> hahaha, oh dear
<slangasek> so I don't think we have agreement on a single right way to handle merges
<stgraber> ev: might be just me, but I'm usually flooded by LP while trafic in #ubuntu-installer is low, so I end up checking #ubuntu-installer a lot more often and read the scrollback very carefuly, I can't always say the same for all the LP merge proposals, bugs, ... (unless they are assigned to me)
<slangasek> so let's plan to use a mix of LP MPs and pastebins (and direct commits for the trivial stuff)
<slangasek> stgraber: ah, but you'll also be on G+ the whole time, so people can nudge you to ask for reviews directly :)
<cjwatson> if people want to say "that's too hard for a paste, MP it" I think that's fine
<slangasek> agreed then?
<infinity> Works for me.
<cjwatson> FWIW I intend to make sure everything is uploaded by the end of each day, for the purpose of daily builds
<cjwatson> so please don't break the trunk or I'll be sad :P
<infinity> Keep flexible, keep lower-case agile (because upper-case Agile is anything but).
<ev> sure
<slangasek> [TOPIC] bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: sorry, I haven't left you much time
<cjwatson> fwiw I can't reproduce bug 945826
<ev> cjwatson: are you going to be the sheriff? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 945826 in apt (Ubuntu) "12.04 AMD64 Beta Live CD sources.list has a bad entry" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/945826
<ev> (context: http://www.chromium.org/developers/tree-sheriffs)
<cjwatson> ev: pass me the silver star and the six-shooter
<ev> lol
<ev> you heard it here, ladies and gentlemen
<ev> if you break trunk
<bdmurray> slangasek: is bug 953289 related to the one you mentioned?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 953289 in unixodbc (Ubuntu) "package odbcinst1debian2 2.2.14p2-5ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: dependency problems - leaving unconfigured" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/953289
<ev> cjwatson will gun you down
<infinity> I'd rather be the tree deputy. No one ever shoots that guy.
<ev> lol
<slangasek> bdmurray: looking
<bdmurray> cjwatson: what architecture did you test?
<cjwatson> i386
<cjwatson> don't have kubuntu-precise-desktop-amd64 locally
<cjwatson> (would be surprised if that mattered here?)
<bdmurray> I used ubuntu-desktop-amd64
<slangasek> bdmurray: bug #953289 is an apt bug, fixed in precise but not in oneiric
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 953289 in unixodbc (Ubuntu) "package odbcinst1debian2 2.2.14p2-5ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: dependency problems - leaving unconfigured" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/953289
<cjwatson> ok, I do have that
<slangasek> bdmurray: I see odbcinst:i386 being pulled in as a dep, and it should always have odbcinst
<cjwatson> bdmurray: and, to be clear, you could reproduce the bug there?
<bdmurray> cjwatson: yes apt-get update printed errors and using apt-cdrom failed too
<cjwatson> bdmurray: hm, yes
<slangasek> bdmurray: oh, backing up a bit, maybe there are two different issues in this log... either way, no, it's not the same bug I was talking about
 * infinity looks at the clock.
<bdmurray> cjwatson: I was using the apt-cdrom comand from 41apt-cdrom
<cjwatson> bdmurray: oho, it's the *i386* entries on amd64, now I understand
<infinity> Oh, some confusion about how multiarch should or shouldn't work WRT apt-cdrom?
<cjwatson> running apt-cdrom is more likely to confuse than help, I think
<slangasek> cjwatson: can I assign the bug to you for follow-through?
<cjwatson> infinity: there's some care to try to make i386 index files available on the live CD, yes
<cjwatson> slangasek: yep
<slangasek> done
<slangasek> bdmurray: any others?
<cjwatson> looks to me like I just forgot to do it for restricted
<infinity> cjwatson: Yeah, but having two entries seems wrong, shouldn't it just transparently DTRT if binary-i386 exists, like a file:/ or http:// URI does?
<cjwatson> infinity: true, there's something odd there
<bdmurray> bug 946663 - but I haven't looked into it much
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 946663 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer stuck at "Removing conflicting operating system files..."" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/946663
<slangasek> can we put that one in the hopper for the sprint?
 * slangasek gives it a rls-mgr-p-tracking
<infinity> The apt-cdrom/casper one seems vaguely installer sprinty too.
<cjwatson> I'll fix that today, I think
<infinity> Or that. :P
 * cjwatson isn't planning to slow down to leave more for the installer sprint, sorry :)
<cjwatson> running out of days ...
<infinity> cjwatson: I'm kinda curious if the one non-arch-specified line (ie: the second line listed) is the only one present, if it DTRT WRT multi-arch.
<cjwatson> well I was going to fix the obvious bug I see in the CD layout first
<infinity> cjwatson: Cause if so, it's probably just a casper bug that it's adding the i386 one.
<infinity> cjwatson: Oh, is the archive layout also not sane? :)
<cjwatson> yep, it's entirely missing restricted/binary-i386
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else, or shall we adjourn? :)
<infinity> *crickets*
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Mar 14 16:07:48 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-14-15.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-14-15.04.html
<slangasek> done
<slangasek> thanks :)
<ev> thanks
<jodh> ta
<stgraber> thanks
<balloons> meeting time!
<Effenberg0x0> Lag... :(
<Effenberg0x0> Yey
<balloons> #startmeeting ubuntu QA community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Mar 14 17:03:47 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu QA community meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<balloons> who all is awake and ready to roll?
<lag> Effenberg0x0: :( yourself ;)
<phillw> o/
<balloons> I must say the daylight savings changeover had me confused on the timeslot for this meeting
<balloons> :-)
<balloons> Ok, so we also have a pretty open agenda today.. no previous action
<balloons> However, I have an open question about the wiki before we dive in... Does anyone know why the meeting log regex isn't working anymore? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<balloons> or seemingly isn't working? I don't see any of the march logs
<balloons> lol.. I see why now :-)
<phillw> balloons: I commented it out, I put the logs in oppostite order & it couldn't handle the two part meeting
<balloons> hmm.. so what do we think we should do then? update manually  or ?
<phillw> sorry, I did mean to say. I left a comment as to my update.
<balloons> could we link part 2 of the feb 29th log to part one?
<balloons> and leave the regex alone?
<phillw> should be able to manually merge them,.... I'll have a look as to how it would affect the auto generated headings.
<phillw> that meetingology uses for minutes taking.
<balloons> ok, well I'm open to trying, but I'll open the floor for volunteers.. anyone wish to get the meeting logs sorted out?
<balloons> you'll get a super cool action assigned to you!
<balloons> :-)
<phillw> h eh, as I edited it - I'll go look into it
<balloons> thanks phillw :-)
<balloons> [ACTION] phillw to fix feb 29th log, merge them, and make the regex for meetings page display all the logs again
<meetingology> ACTION: phillw to fix feb 29th log, merge them, and make the regex for meetings page display all the logs again
<balloons> ^^ see how cool that is/
<balloons> ?
<balloons> ok, let's move on then ;-)
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu QA community meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Updates
<balloons> jibel, are you around?
<balloons> hmm.. well.. I can give the updates I know about htne
<balloons> So a couple of interesting things coming up for qa.. beta2 is happening at the end of the month as you all know.. And the team behind ubiquity and casper are having an installer sprint next week.. Mon-Weds
<balloons> I was curious if we as a community would be interested in helping them test, report bugs, and fix critical issues that remain with the installer so it's in good shape for beta2, and of course the final release
<phillw> balloons: I'm only aware of a few gremlins with macs still, but I'll certainly ask all lubuntu to test as soon as a daily is available
<balloons> My idea was to have the team release an iso each day, along with a changelog of what has been fixed and we can test the following day.. So for example, after there work Monday, we would grab the iso and test during Tues and give feedback.. Repeat for Weds and thursday
<phillw> sounds good :)
<balloons> I don't want to add needless work to everyone's plate.. but i was thinking specific targetted testing once a day would be helpful and mostly painless :-)
<balloons> on that note.. if you have any bugs you feel are indeed critical, let me know and I will pass them along
<balloons> the team has a healthly list, but if the bug you have is critical and not on that list, it would be good to let them know about it
<balloons> alrighty, I will send out an annoucement with the plan as I explained it.. and we'll do our best
<balloons> ok, let's talk about the flavors
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu QA community meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Flavor updates
<balloons> phillw, care to start us off with lubuntu?
<phillw> we have the theme released and it seems to have resolved well over 90% of issues :)
<balloons> ^^ awesome!
<phillw> one of the others is a mac one re:ubiquity, which we hope from what you have just said to get nailed next week. That would be pretty awesome from the lubuntu point of view :)
<phillw> that's all from lubuntu.
<balloons> phillw, mac's do have some issues
<balloons> we need some more people with that specific hardware to help out..
<phillw> yeah... but progress is being made,
<balloons> I think your spot on about focusing it a bit
<phillw> balloons: I'm more than happy to ask our lubuntu mac people to assist.
<balloons> thank you much phillw !
<balloons> ok, let's move on to xubuntu
<balloons> I'm not sure anyone else from the flavors is here today :-(
<balloons> edubuntu, kubuntu, ubuntu studio? anyone about?
<balloons> ok, well.. let's move on then
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu QA community meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other topics
<balloons> So, I have 2 things to share.. Before I delve in, does anyone else have anything to add?
<balloons> Ok, first I was hoping to discuss a bit about this meeting day/time. It's become difficult for some people to make it at this day and time.. What does everyone think about possibly moving the meeting time?
<phillw> I'm flexible as long as not at 20:00 UTC on Wednesdays!
<balloons> do you think it's worth maybe doing a poll to see what works for everyone?
<phillw> balloons: I think that is the method used for meeting times :)
<balloons> [ACTION] balloons to poll community members on preferred meeting day and time
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to poll community members on preferred meeting day and time
<balloons> ok, my second item is an idea I've been working on
<balloons> having a smaller audience isn't bad for it's premiere ;-)
<balloons> first some background
<balloons> when i started getting more involved in QA in ubuntu, i had to learn the ropes of who was doing what, what teams existed, etc.. As part of that fact finding mission, I ended up creating a list of teams
<balloons> http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2012/03/whos-who-on-quality-in-ubuntu.html
<balloons> You can see my attempt to list out all the people doing QA stuff inside the ubuntu community
<balloons> i'm sure it's missing some things/people (and if so I apologize!).. however, putting together that list made me realize how difficult it was to understand and get started in qa
<balloons> So, I decided to think about ways we might be able to communicate better and coordinate our activities and teams
<balloons> as well as make it easier for new community members to join us in our work
<phillw> balloons: it looks good, Alan is pretty quick to mention accessbility is an important part of *buntu :)
<balloons> phillw, :-)
<balloons> So, with all that background in mind, I created this proposal.. I'll link you
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ProposedTeamStructure
<balloons> The goals of the proposal are similar to what i just stayed.. we want to be able to communicate, recruit and retain community members, and grow.. and we want to do these things of course as effectively as we can :-)
<phillw> an excellent idea, the easier it is for people to find about testing; the more testers we get :) Excellent work balloons
<balloons> Now, this idea is of course simply that, an idea.. and I was wondering what everyone thought of the issues I mentioned, ways they might be solved, etc..
<balloons> phillw, thanks.. I'm glad you like it and you want testing to grow :-)
<balloons> Since not alot of folks where able to join today, I will of course also be sending this out to the mailing list.. It's on the wiki and people should feel free to discuss and edit it
<phillw> balloons: whilst we are this matter, Im always open to suggestions to improve  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing which is the link for our Lubuntu testers.
<balloons> phillw, perfect example.. I see us being able to collaborate on common things like testing infrastructure and process..
<phillw> I, also, am still learning this stuff!
<balloons> ok, great.. Well I'm happy to field any questions you have on the document or my thoughts.. If no one has anything else then we may be done early :-)
<balloons> [ACTION] balloons to share qa team proposal to mailing list
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to share qa team proposal to mailing list
<balloons> phillw, I am also still learning this stuff. I am experimenting with different ideas this cycle for testing to see what works and what doesn't.. so we might be able to move forward next cycle with more structure and knowledge behind us
<phillw> +1, the mac testers are all completely new - it has given me an excellent insight into what newcomers need to support them.
<balloons> awesome.. that's the stuff we can all learn from and share..
<balloons> ok, I'll end us for this week.. thanks for coming everyone
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Mar 14 17:48:14 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-14-17.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-14-17.03.html
<bdmurray> time for the bug squad meeting!
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Mar 14 18:02:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdmurray> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<bdmurray> ACTION: put list of dbus no reply bugs into a wiki page and email bugsquad regarding list: bdmurray
<bdmurray> so I ended up just taking care of the dbus no reply bugs myself
<bdmurray> so we can consider that done
<bdmurray> that was the only action item from last week
<bdmurray> #topic Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> next week the foundations team is having an installer virtual sprint so that should be exciting
<bdmurray> this past week I made a very short how to confirm a bug task video
<bdmurray> http://youtu.be/Vl-cQDAlPFc
<bdmurray> I plan on making some oethers but if you want to help let me know
<bdmurray> I also updated screenshots and some documentation at help.ubuntu.com/community/BugReportingGuidelines
<bdmurray> and I've uploaded a new version of firefox-lp-improvements which fixed a bug in the gmane link to a users bug activity
<bdmurray> Ursinha: do you have anything?
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: anything interesting happening in kernel land?
<jsalisbury> There is an increase of bugs related to Lenovo ThinkPads overheating.
<jsalisbury> However, it doesn't seem to be a regression, since I was able to reproduce the issue in Oneiric and Natty.
<bdmurray> I've a thinkpad! what do I need to know
<jsalisbury> If you run a very hight load, basically keeping the cpu at 100% utilized, the laptop may hit 100C and crash.
<jsalisbury> It appears to be BIOS related, but the kernel team is getting in touch with Lenovo to see if we can overide the fan control in the thinkpad_acpi driver
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: thanks, that is good to know
<jsalisbury> The bug is bug 751689
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 751689 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "ThinkPads overheat due to slow fans when on 'auto'" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/751689
<jsalisbury> I can only reproduce it by running multiple kernel compiles at the same time.
<jsalisbury> An partially blocking the fan exhaust, which may happen if you use the laptop "On your lap"
<jsalisbury> :-)
<bdmurray> heh
<jsalisbury> We are also still keeping an eye out for any new RC6 related bugs.
<jsalisbury> ..
<Ursinha> I have nothing specific to report
<Ursinha> unity related bugs stopped showing
<Ursinha> rephrasing: unity bugs similar to what we had after beta 1 stopped showing
<Ursinha> that must mean situation is under control now :)
<bdmurray> I also made some more changes to the recent package bug graphs
<bdmurray> for example http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-desktop/desktop-packages-recent-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> labels now say this week and last week
<bdmurray> the this week link becomes bold if this week > last week
<Ursinha> I like it bdmurray
<bdmurray> and there's a bit that says when the json file was updated
<bdmurray> thanks Ursinha
<bdmurray> moving on
<bdmurray> #topic Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
<wagafo> Somebody found a workaround to bug 527157  and bug 839281 that suggests adding a parameter at boot for the kernel. Could these bugs be in the kernel instead of gnome-power-manager and friends (the bug has been around for 2 years...).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 527157 in gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Brightness controls skips Levels." [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527157
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 839281 in gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Double brightness events after logging in." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/839281
<bdmurray> wagafo: what comment has the workaround?
<wagafo> Sorry if this is not "high or critical" and does not belong. The workaround is adding a paramter for the kernel at boot.
<bdmurray> oh maybe its the one that starts "Happy Birthday Bug ..."
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: can you look at these?
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, wagafo, sure I'll take a look and move them over to the kernel package if needed.
<bdmurray> wagafo: while it isn't a high or critical bug thanks for bringing it up
<wagafo> bdmurray: I have a couple more, should I also mention them?
<bdmurray> wagafo: if a couple really means 2 sure. ;-)
<wagafo> Bug 807259 seems to have all information and seems to me be easy to decide to weather fix or won't fix.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 807259 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "MetaRelease.download() Issue after Captive Portal" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/807259
<bdmurray> okay, I'll take that one
<wagafo> And the last one: Bug 872207. Can it be marked as triaged?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 872207 in Compiz "When Firefox is running in Unity, drop-down menus sometime close when opened" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/872207
<bdmurray> Ursinha: can you look at that one?
<bdmurray> wagafo: it looks like 872207 is incomplete and looking for some feedback
<wagafo> bdmurray: OK, let me then go back to it and see if I can more info from the reporters
<bdmurray> wagafo: also the description could use a better test case / steps to recreate the bug
<wagafo> bdmurray: Ok, we'll try to improve the info there
<bdmurray> wagafo: okay great thanks!
<bdmurray> any other bugs we should be aware of?
<bdmurray> #topic any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: any other business
<bdmurray> anything else worth discussing?
<bdmurray> wagafo: if you run into other bugs you are concerned about feel free to use the bugsquad mailing list too
<wagafo> bdmurray: OK
<bdmurray> okay thanks everyone
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Mar 14 18:35:56 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-14-18.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-14-18.02.html
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, Thanks!
 * oCean jumps
<topyli> how high?
<oCean> oh, only a little bit.. don't want to worry the neighbours
<topyli> ok :(
<Pici> I will be driving for a little bit, so I may be a little late...
<topyli> don't irc and drive!
<oCean> drive only between the lines
<jalcine> heh
<oCean> quite a turnout for the team meeting..
<Unit193> I'm here, but that doesn't count. :/
<moergaes> So, is there a meeting after all?
<oCean> Sure it does!
<Unit193> moergaes: Lubuntu meeting is in #lubuntu-offtopic
<moergaes> I didn't know we had an offtopic...
<topyli> hm, i even have my timezones right this time
<topyli> AlanBell, tsimpson?
<oCean> (-:
 * tsimpson is not on the council :)
<topyli> the standard academic fifteen is almost gone
<topyli> tsimpson: oh, you're not :)
<oCean> FUNKEH!?
<topyli> i don't see funky hats either :(
<oCean> Oh boy, what should we do now!!
<tsimpson> give it until :30 and then just postpone, I guess
<topyli> yeah
<tsimpson> if people get here around :30, you guys can pick a day/time and then postpone. probably not going to get much done in 30 mins anyway
<tsimpson> though it's not like we don't usually overrun :)
<oCean> well, there is not much on the agenda
<topyli> AlanBell is a pretty good chair though
<oCean> sure
<topyli> nothing on the agenda is super urgent. no member prospects sweating here or anything like that
<oCean> if we go quickly through the more-or-less-fixed items, we can make it in half an hour I guess
<topyli> i don't mind if we go overtime, it's late in the evening so it's not like i'm going anywhere
<topyli> alright. i think we'll just postpone due to lack of quorum. we'll send mail some time tomorrow and see what sort of time we've managed to come up with
<jussi> you all suck! down with the IRCC!! :P :P  (heckling anyone?) :P :P
<topyli> thanks and apologies to those who came
<topyli> not jussi though, of course :)
 * jussi hugs topyli
<jussi> and then throws eggs
<oCean> :)
<topyli> mmm, eggs
 * topyli rubs yolk in hair
<Unit193> Nice, now you don't need a shower! :D
<topyli> exactly. what a time saver!
<AlanBell> erk
<AlanBell> hi all, sorry
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-03-15
<vibhav> The Americas board meeting is tomorrow , right?
<vibhav> just wait
<vibhav> nevermind
<Gwaihir> #startmeeting Community Council meeting, agenda available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 15 17:01:01 2012 UTC.  The chair is Gwaihir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, agenda available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda Meeting | Current topic:
<czajkowski> aloha
 * pleia2 waves
<cprofitt> hello
<Gwaihir> #topic Community Council meeting, Agenda available here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, agenda available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda Meeting | Current topic:  Community Council meeting, Agenda available here:  https://wiki.ubun
<Gwaihir> hello everyone!
<pleia2> welcome to your first meeting as a CC member, cprofitt!
<cprofitt> thanks pleia2
<Gwaihir> thanks all for being here
<Gwaihir> so, today we have on the agenda the Americas Regional Board meet-up
<Gwaihir> who do we have here from the RMB?
<pleia2> o/
<Gwaihir> ok, nobody else?
<czajkowski> Pendulum: ??
<pleia2> cyphermox?
<dholbach> hiya
<pleia2> greg-g also said he'd make it, but may be a few minutes late
<Gwaihir> well, pleia2, floor is yours, do you have something in particular you would like to say?
<YokoZar> Well, greetings pleia2 ;)
<Gwaihir> #subtopic America Regional Membership Board meet-up
<pleia2> in general I think things are going well, terms of severl of our board members expire in May so I think we're seeing some of the fatigue related to that
<greg-g> hi there
<YokoZar> Has the rate of apps changed during your tour?
<pleia2> we now have a channel where members from all boards hang out, which has been super helpful in improving cohesion between the boards and recruiting volunteers from other boards as needed
<YokoZar> It'd be interesting if we were getting more or fewer membership applications, for instance
<Pendulum> Sorry, I'm here.
<cprofitt> +1 YokoZar
<greg-g> the rate of new member apps seems about consistent, during my term
<pleia2> I've been on the board since they were created 4 years ago, if anything it's gone down some, but I think part of that is we've moved off some approvals to IRC and Forums in that time
<pleia2> and developer membership board
<cyphermox> I'm there, sorry, had wifi issues
<Pendulum> I've only been on for just under a year, but I'd say they've generally been consistant in that time.
<cprofitt> Have you have had any issues with verifying potential members work in certain areas of the community such as askubuntu
<pleia2> cprofitt: we rely heavily upon testimonials for sections of the community or work that we may have trouble personally verifying
<Gwaihir> is the IRC process for membership approval an issue, or is it easy to reach quorum?
<pleia2> so we do sometimes have to ask people to come back with testimonials
<pleia2> Gwaihir: it works fine for us
<czajkowski> pleia2: does your board ever not meet quorum or do ye have enough members?
<pleia2> last meeting we borrowed someone from the Asia/Oceania board
<pleia2> but that's pretty rare
<cyphermox> Gwaihir: quorum does not appear to be an issue, especially now that we notify across boards via the mailing list
<cprofitt> What is the biggest challenge facing the RMB in the next cycle?
<pleia2> again, with a bunch of terms expiring in May I think a couple people have kind of checked out early
<pleia2> cprofitt: I don't really see any
<cyphermox> making sure it remains clear what the expectations are for membership? but that's hardly a problem right now
<Pendulum> For the board itself, the only thing I can think of is transition with the new members, but I don't see that being a problem either.
<Gwaihir> cool to hear
<dholbach> was missing testimonials the only problem which led to asking people to reapply?
<pleia2> with my CC hat on, the Americas board is never wanting for applicants to be on the board, unlike the other two boards, so I think Americas is fortunate there
<cprofitt> goog to hear pleia2
<pleia2> (I think we had something like 10 applicants for the free spots last time!)
<dholbach> nice
<czajkowski> pleia2: nice to hear
<greg-g> (sorry, had to  hold a fussy baby for s econd) re: verifying: I think the separate boards for IRC/Forum helps with that but for AskUbuntu, given the highly badge-centric model, it works OK, as long as there is evidence of good interaction with the wider community as well
<Pendulum> I'd say missing testimonials is the most common reason for asking people to reapply, but we have also asked people to do more work or spend more time in the community, among other things.
<greg-g> +1 to what Pendulum said
<Pendulum> And then there are people that we suggest should apply through a different board
<pleia2> g/ 51
<pleia2> oops
<cyphermox> Pendulum: +1
<dholbach> what about people who just focus on one task and are less interest in joining LoCo teams for example? is that a concern?
<YokoZar> I'd like to minimize instances of "wrong board" sorry...just makes us seem a bit bureaucratic
<czajkowski> Pendulum: on those cases when they came back have they done the extra stuff that was needed or shown great collaboration with teams and gotten testimonals ?
<cprofitt> How flexible has the RMB been in evaluating contributions in new areas of the community? Is there anything you can think of that can be done better in regards to incorporating new areas of community contribution?
<pleia2> dholbach: not really, we tend to recommend joining locos when they are having trouble finding a community ("I can't get testimonials because I work by myself on $thing" for instance)
 * dholbach nods
<Gwaihir> YokoZar, might be an idea to have just one "board" visible to the users, but internally structured in a different way, by timezones
<czajkowski> nods
<pleia2> well, we always *recommend* joining locos because they are fun :) but we only recommend it as a way to help membership in the above case
<greg-g> cprofitt: we've been pretty flixible, I'd say, but I'm biased, of course :)
<czajkowski> YokoZar: in what case would you have a wrong board?
<dholbach> I personally agree - LoCos *are* great :)
 * cprofitt nods to greg-g 
<cyphermox> cprofitt: we've granted membership on one or two cases based largely on AskUbuntu contributions, IIRC
<Pendulum> pleia2: +1
<YokoZar> czajkowski: Pendulum: And then there are people that we suggest should apply through a different board
<pleia2> I think more generally the only major hurdle in the past year regarding "new areas" is our uncertainty over whether Unity is Ubuntu, or upstream
<pleia2> but I think that was resolved in a satisfactory manner (and Unity does count)
<greg-g> YokoZar: well, we don't want to make a determination on a person who does development only, that is better taken up by the dev board
<pleia2> Upstart, Launchpad and others also fell in to the "upstream or not?" category
<pleia2> but it's not hugely about "upstream or not" it's about "ubuntu community interaction or not"
<cprofitt> cyphermox: good to hear
<Pendulum> czajkowski: Generally they either come back the next month with testimonials and/or cheerleaders or take a few more months to do more work. We do get the occasional person who doesn't understand and reapplies without doing anything more, but it's not common.
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> thanks
<cprofitt> pleia2: I think upstream or not may be an issue for new people coming in to the community too... it is not often easy for new folks to know that difference
<YokoZar> Especially in the developer case, the question of what's Ubuntu vs what's upstream sounds like it could get quite dicey
 * greg-g nods
<Gwaihir> well, everything seems to work pretty nicely here :)
<Gwaihir> does anybody have other questions?
<dholbach> I'm all set - I'm quite happy with what I've heard
<czajkowski> nope am good thanks
<cprofitt> I am good as well
<Gwaihir> sweet!
<cprofitt> It sounds as though things are running smoothly
<greg-g> thanks all!
<pleia2> thanks :)
<cprofitt> thanks to everyone taking on the RMB role!!
<Gwaihir> pleia2, greg-g Pendulum, thanks for being here today!
<Pendulum> thanks
<YokoZar> Indeed, membership is a fantastic part of Ubuntu
<Gwaihir> lovely chat :)
<Gwaihir> moving one, our agenda is quite empty, do we have any outstanding issue to discuss?
<czajkowski> Gwaihir: we need to reply to the LC
<dholbach> yes, we need to review the CoC changes
<czajkowski> dholbach: did you reply to the membership mail?
<cprofitt> +1 czajkowski
<Gwaihir> ok, start with the reply to the LC
<dholbach> czajkowski, erm which?
<Gwaihir> #subtopic Reply to the Loco Council
<Gwaihir> mail is about the rewrite of the LoCo approval page
<Gwaihir> now, only cprofitt replied internally to the CC
<Gwaihir> we need to review the edited page, and provide an answer
<czajkowski> I'm also good with it helped to write it and am happy with the edits in it
<dholbach> (ahhh ok, now - no, czajkowski, I didn't)
<pleia2> the only real change from the CC perspective is the recommendation being changed from 4 months to 8 months
 * cprofitt nods
<pleia2> I think this is fine, when this was written 4 months was a much greater percentage of the life of Ubuntu
<czajkowski> nods and locoteams were rather new then
 * pleia2 nods
<czajkowski> and we have more activities
 * Gwaihir nods
<cprofitt> everything else is a clean up -- and two pages will be replaced with one to avoid confusion
<Gwaihir> #action CC needs to review the the LoCo approval wiki page and provide an answer to the LC
<meetingology> ACTION: CC needs to review the the LoCo approval wiki page and provide an answer to the LC
<Gwaihir> can we do it by tomorrow?
<pleia2> I'll give my +1 now
<czajkowski> I'm +1 also
<cprofitt> I am also a +1
<YokoZar> We have 3 members mia
<YokoZar> we might want to wait a day
<Gwaihir> I will read it tonight and reply to the mailing list
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> that is fair
<dholbach> if possible I'd like to read it first - I'm not quite sure what exactly changed and for which reason
<Gwaihir> but from a fast view at the page, looks good
<dholbach> I'll also do it tonight
<dholbach> and reply to the mail czajkowski mentioned
<pleia2> thanks guys
<Gwaihir> cool
<dholbach> sweet
<Gwaihir> can we move to the next topic?
<cprofitt> yes
<czajkowski> sure
<Gwaihir> #subtopic Review merge proposal to the CoC
<dholbach> https://code.launchpad.net/~akgraner/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposedv2coc/+merge/97139
<Gwaihir> has anybody had the chance to look at it?
<Gwaihir> unfortunately, I hadn't yet
<cprofitt> I did... it looked good to me.
<dholbach> Amber's revision had a change missing which Matt Z put in some time ago, so I added that in my own branch
<czajkowski> looks fine, although it's a bit long.
<czajkowski> ahh shall review that
<czajkowski> didnt see it missing thanks dholbach
<Gwaihir> czajkowski, yeah, it is a bit long now
<dholbach> in the merge proposal I added links to wdiffs, so you can see which words changed as opposed to seeing line changes (if that's helpful)
<Gwaihir> wondering if people will really read it all...
<czajkowski> I do think that's a bit of an issue as for starters the CoC isn't translated and I for one would love to see this happen somewhere
<czajkowski> even on a wiki page so people could reference it
<Gwaihir> dholbach, has a branch for that I think
 * czajkowski hugs dholbach 
<dholbach> but on the other hand many won't have to read the LCoC in their first days yet, but now that it exists
<Gwaihir> at one UDS we were talking with david about that
<dholbach> Gwaihir, yes, but dpm and I never finished it I think
<dholbach> I can't remember what exactly the issue was with it though
<YokoZar> Honestly I feel like I might still be able to cull it for wordiness
<Gwaihir> dholbach, do not remember either
<dholbach> maybe we should first concern ourselves with getting 2.0 out, then do the i18n bits :)
<Gwaihir> might take a look for this UDS
<YokoZar> when I write essays I come back to them 4 or 5 times over the course of many weeks and still find things to shorten them
<Gwaihir> yeah, better
<dholbach> YokoZar, if you could add a few ideas to the merge proposal that'd be nice
<czajkowski> dholbach: aye my only conern with 2.0 is it's a tad long
<YokoZar> Yeah, agreed
<YokoZar> Will do dholbach
<cprofitt> so I am clear this is in relation to this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392976
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 392976 in ubuntu-community "Launchpad only supports one CoC - the Ubuntu Leadership CoC is not supported." [Medium,In progress]
<dholbach> so it'd be good if we could all have a look over it again
<dholbach> (myself included :-))
 * cprofitt nods
 * Gwaihir nods
 * pleia2 nods
<dholbach> that I think is all I had to discuss
<Gwaihir> #action CC review merge proposal of the new CoC â https://code.launchpad.net/~akgraner/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposedv2coc/+merge/97139
<meetingology> ACTION: CC review merge proposal of the new CoC â https://code.launchpad.net/~akgraner/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposedv2coc/+merge/97139
<Gwaihir> hmmm... was there something else we need to discuss?
<pleia2> from me, just a quick additional thanks to akgraner for serving on the council, wrapping up her outstanding tasks and setting a good example by stepping down when she realized she didn't have the time for it
<cprofitt> +1
<czajkowski> reply to RMB candiate
<cprofitt> great example of following the LCoC!
<Gwaihir> +1 for akgraner
<dholbach> yes, thanks alot for your work on akgraner!
<Gwaihir> o/
<Gwaihir> czajkowski, yep
<pleia2> czajkowski: good catch, we discussed that all privately
<czajkowski> Gwaihir: think that's it all tbh
<Gwaihir> #subtopic Reply to RMB candidate
<pleia2> I think the mailing list thread summed up our expectations well, we just need to draft a reply
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
 * Gwaihir nods
<Gwaihir> who would like to write the reply?
<Gwaihir> at least draft it
<pleia2> I'd rather it come from a CC member who is not also a membership board member (not me :))
<Gwaihir> ;)
<cprofitt> I can take that on
<Gwaihir> awesome cprofitt
<Gwaihir> thanks
<czajkowski> pleia2: :)
<Gwaihir> #action cprofitt to reply to the RMB email
<meetingology> ACTION: cprofitt to reply to the RMB email
<Gwaihir> if this is the last topic, and nobody would like to discuss about something else
<czajkowski> all good thanks
<cprofitt> I am set; thanks.
<czajkowski> excellent chairing Gwaihir :)
<Gwaihir> we just need to take care of the bureaucratic stuff
<Gwaihir> thanks czajkowski
<Gwaihir> who is going to chair next meeting?
<czajkowski> ar we gonna try this rotation again this time properly :)
<Gwaihir> why not :)
<czajkowski> cool
<czajkowski> so who's next after you
<Gwaihir> maybe better set up a wiki page with the rotation thing
<Gwaihir> by nick name, should be pleia2
<czajkowski> sounds good, but with the exception of sabdfl as at uds he said he wouldn't be able to do it due to work
<czajkowski> which is fine
<Gwaihir> yeah, np
<pleia2> Gwaihir: I can't chair
<pleia2> (this meeting is during work for me, I can get pulled away at any time)
<Gwaihir> pleia2, no worries
<Gwaihir> we get back to this one later...
<Gwaihir> who can update the wiki pages then?
<pleia2> I can do it
<Gwaihir> thanks pleia
<Gwaihir> #action pleia2 to update wiki pages and reference links
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to update wiki pages and reference links
<Gwaihir> for the chair, I might to it again as well
<Gwaihir> s/to it/do it
<Gwaihir> if somebody else would like to do it at the last minute, I wouldn't block him/her :)
<Gwaihir> so, be it
<Gwaihir> #action Gwaihir to chair next time
<meetingology> ACTION: Gwaihir to chair next time
<Gwaihir> ok, that should be all folks
<dholbach> awesome
<cprofitt> thanks everyone!
<Gwaihir> next meeting will be on 29th March, same time, same place as the last one :)
<pleia2> thanks all
<Gwaihir> thanks all!
<Gwaihir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 15 17:49:33 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-15-17.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-15-17.01.html
<dholbach> thanks everyone
<pleia2> Gwaihir: we only have IRC meetings 1st and 3rd Thursdays
<pleia2> no meeting on the 29th
<Gwaihir> oh... right
<Gwaihir> I have to updated my calendar then
<pleia2> we get a day off on 5 Thursday months :D
<Gwaihir> sweet :)
<Gwaihir> see you all in April then :)
<czajkowski> :D
 * vibhav waits
 * skellat waits
<jrgifford> skellat: howdy
<jrgifford> what, four minutes until it starts?
<skellat> jrgifford: Howdy
<skellat> jrgifford: NTP claims 11 minutes on my end
 * vibhav pokes meetingology 
<vibhav> 6 minutes left
 * utlemming waits
<vibhav> It is 5:29 here
<stringedluthier> here
<wendar> o/
<vibhav> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-03-16
<cyphermox> welcome all; we're just about ready to start I think
 * vibhav hands everybody popcorn
 * hggdh waits for bladernr_ presentation
<cyphermox> wendar: hey. wow, I thought you already had membership.
<ajmitch> chrisccoulson: that's what I thought as well
<cyphermox> ajmitch: oops?
<ajmitch> bah, s/chriscoulson/cyphermox/
<ajmitch> yeah, oops
<wendar> cyphermox: :)
<chrisccoulson> ajmitch, YOU WOKE ME UP!!!!!!!!
<ajmitch> need more caffeine, I was here to support wendar's application :)
<chrisccoulson> :-)
<ajmitch> chrisccoulson: like you ever sleep :)
<chrisccoulson> heh
<vibhav> I need coffee too
<ChrisGagnon> o!
 * bladernr_ waves
<jrgifford> ajmitch: you're a horrible person for waking up someone. ;)
<ajmitch> jrgifford: I know
<Pendulum> Sorry, we're just having an administrative moment ;-)
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Mar 16 00:05:24 2012 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Pendulum> #voters pleia2 greg-g Pendulum beuno cyphermox
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum beuno cyphermox greg-g pleia2
<Pendulum> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for March 15, 2012. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<Pendulum> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<Pendulum> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<Pendulum> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<Pendulum> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<Pendulum> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<Pendulum> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<Pendulum> It looks like caravena isn't here
<Pendulum> bladernr_: are you here?
<bladernr_> Yep
<Pendulum> great!
<bladernr_> Hi :)
 * hggdh cheers for bladernr_
<bladernr_> ready?
<Pendulum> #topic Application of bladernr_ for Membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Application of bladernr_ for Membership
<greg-g> please introduce yourself :)
<bladernr_> Hi, I'm Jeff.  I've been a linux user since the mid-90s, and ubuntu since 8.04.  I currently do a lot of filing, triaging and resolving bugs that involve Checkbox and subsequently the Ubuntu Friendly program.  I'm also one of the Checkbox developers and write patches and test scripts for that. I focus a lot on testing Ubuntu on server hardware and writing test cases for servers.  I've led several sessions and UDS over
<bladernr_> the last couple years relating to certificaiton and server interests.  I also like to help out with QA, especially with ISO testing, filing bugs related to that effort and trying to make Ubuntu better for users.  I try to view things from the viewpoint of the first time Linux user when I test.  I tend to stick more to mailing lists than forums just because keeping up with forums can quickly get out of control! I  previ
<bladernr_> ously taught Intro to Linux at the local Community College as a way to give back to the community, and I always gave my students Ubuntu CDs to use.o/ I'm also a Ham and a member of Ubuntu Hams and doing testing and such with Ubuntu on ARM.
<bladernr_> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JeffLaneyes
<bladernr_> :)
<pleia2> "That Guy Who Forced a Respin of Lucid on Release Day" hah! :D
<bladernr_> that should have been https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JeffLane sorry for the borked link
 * hggdh remembers this episode
<pleia2> this past weekend I did my first iso testing *and* bought a laptop partially based off a good score on Ubuntu Friendly :)
<bladernr_> yay!
<bladernr_> I like community review sites like that.  I used to live off linux-laptops.net when it was regularly updated.
<bladernr_> I'm glad people find UF useful
 * skaet appreciates his ISO testing work too. :)
<bladernr_> skaet, thanks :) it's fun... I like breaking things
<pleia2> thanks for having such a thorough wiki page!
<pleia2> I don't really have any questions
<greg-g> me neither, good wiki page :)
<greg-g> took me a while to scan it all :)
<bladernr_> Thangs pleia2, greg-g I usually worry about being too verbose
<bladernr_> I tend to be set on -vvv
<pleia2> hehe
<greg-g> bladernr_: I'm a fan of verbose, I was an Anthropology undergrad ;)
<greg-g> (which means I read way too many overly verbose explanations of things)
<Pendulum> okay, I think we're ready to vote now
<Pendulum> #voters elky greg-g pleia2 Pendulum cyphermox
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum beuno cyphermox elky greg-g pleia2
<pleia2> +1
<pleia2> oh
<pleia2> hehe
<Pendulum> pleia2: haven't started the vote yet :P
<Pendulum> #vote Vote on Membership for Jeff Lane
<meetingology> Please vote on: Vote on Membership for Jeff Lane
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<elky> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elky
<elky> ooh i wonder what pleia2 will choose
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<elky> :P
<pleia2> I got excited
<pleia2> hehe
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Pendulum> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Vote on Membership for Jeff Lane
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Pendulum> Congratulations bladernr_!
<hggdh> GO bladernr_ !!!
<bladernr_> woot!  Thanks everyone! I don't remember being this nervous, at least not in a long time
<bladernr_> :)
<cyphermox> bladernr_: there was no reason for it :)
<cyphermox> bladernr_: don't forget to add your blog to planet if you have one :)
<Pendulum> okay, moving on since we have quite a few applicants
<pleia2> welcome bladernr_ :)
<Pendulum> It looks like fitoschido isn't here
<Pendulum> skellat: are you here?
<skellat> Here
<Pendulum> #topic Stephen Kellat for Membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Stephen Kellat for Membership
<jrgifford> YAY SKELLAT! :D
<skellat> Hello, my name is Stephen Michael Kellat and I am the Head Writer at Erie Looking Productions.
<skellat> I produce the weekly podcast for the Ohio LoCo and try to serve as a resource within the LoCo for experience with more exotic architectures like the SheevaPlug and BeagleBoard.
<skellat> I am also fairly active on my LoCo's e-mail list and have not had luck with efforts to reinvigorate our forum presence.
<skellat> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/skellat
<jrgifford> And he's a active Ohio LoCo guy. :)
<Unit193> Harder for him as well since he's out in the middle of nowhere.
<pleia2> skellat: ooh, can I lure you over to doing some Xubuntu ISO testing before our beta2? :)
<skellat> pleia2: Quite possibly now that I've got a chip I can swap for the current one.  My BeagleBoard is on Xubuntu 11.10 as is.
<skellat> Unit193: Ashtabula isn't the middle of nowhere.  It's just the extreme outer fringe geographically of the State of Ohio. :-)
<jrgifford> skellat, Unit193: Same difference ;)
<skellat> jrgifford: What can I say?  We've got a big state and LoCo members who are very far flung throughout it.
<Unit193> (Going off member placement map)
<greg-g> skellat: just wondering why there aren't any testimonials on your wiki? I know Ohio is hard place for people, but.. ;)
<jrgifford> OH dangit, did I forget to write mine in?! crap.
<skellat> greg-g: jrgifford and unit193 chose to attend in-person tonight
 * greg-g nods
<Unit193> Yes it did.
<Pendulum> skellat: How often does the podcast come out? (there aren't dates on the episodes)
<skellat> Normally weekly.  There was a death in the family Sunday and my day job had an all-night work event so there isn't an episode for the 12th.
<jrgifford> consider my presence a testimonial please. :) He's been doing stuff in the loco, is active on the mailing list and is a friendly guy.
<greg-g> thanks jrgifford :)
<skellat> When paultag and I first set up the podcast posting form on the team's drupal site we didn't choose to go with dates but instead episode numbers.
<skellat> Unlike Ubuntu UK's program, we don't have it divided into seasons
 * greg-g nods
<skellat> Pendulum: We've had multiple calls for feedback from around the state to air.  If I get it, it airs.  With everybody spread out so much it gets a bit hard planning out shows.
 * jokerdino joins the meeting, without much purpose and reason though.
<Pendulum> okay, we're ready to vote
<Pendulum> #vote Vote on Stephen Kellat for Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Vote on Stephen Kellat for Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<elky> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elky
<pleia2> +`
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<pleia2> phone :)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Pendulum> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Vote on Stephen Kellat for Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<jokerdino> congrats skellat !
<Pendulum> Congratulations and welcome, skellat!
<jrgifford> congrats skellat !
<skellat> I thank the board for their vote in favor tonight.
<Unit193> Congrats, skellat!!
<skellat> Pendulum jrgifford Unit193 jokerdino Thank you for the congratulations
<Pendulum> Next up is wendar
<wendar> here
<Pendulum> #topic Allison Rnadal for Membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Allison Rnadal for Membership
<Pendulum> wendar: please introduce yourself
<wendar> Hi, Allison here. I'm a C and dynamic language (Python, Perl, Ruby, etc) developer. I've been involved in Ubuntu since 2005, and my first UDS was 2006 in Mountain View. I work on packaging, architecture, and healthy relations between volunteers, employees, upstreams, and downstreams.
<wendar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AllisonRandal
<greg-g> wendar: as a side note: Thanks for your cat herding with the Harmony Agreements drafting process :)
<Pendulum> wendar: I apologize for misspelling your name in the topic just now.
<ajmitch> it seems to be a common theme that people are surprised that wendar isn't a member already
<wendar> greg-g: glad to help :)
<wendar> Pendulum: no worries
<greg-g> wendar: I don't really have any substantial questions un/fortunately
<greg-g> :)
 * stgraber waves and highly recommends a +1 for wendar 
<Pendulum> wendar: What's your favourite thing to do outside of your tech work?
 * skaet waves and echoes stgraber's +1  ;)
<wendar> Pendulum: Hmmm... it's a toss up between watching English mysteries, baking gluten-free tasty treats, and astrophysics.
 * ajmitch has already put his +1 on the wiki :)
<elky> Baking and astrophysics. I think you just won The Internet.
<greg-g> hah
<wendar> elky: heh :)
<Pendulum> #vote Vote on Allison Randal for Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Vote on Allison Randal for Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<elky> +1
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elky
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Pendulum> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Vote on Allison Randal for Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elky> yay!
<Pendulum> wendar: Congratualtions and welcome!
<wendar> thanks all! :)
<jokerdino> congrats wendar !
<cyphermox> congrats wendar
<ajmitch> wendar: congratulations
 * jokerdino goes off to grab something for breakfast.
<Pendulum> vibhav: are you here?
<vibhav> yes
<JoseeAntonioR> Congratularions, wendar!
<skaet> wendar, congratulations!  :)
<greg-g> congrats indeed!
<Pendulum> #topic Membership for Vibhav Pant
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Membership for Vibhav Pant
<greg-g> (and sorry for the delay)
<Pendulum> vibhav: please introduce yourself
<vibhav> ok
<vibhav> Hi everybody, I am Vibhav Pant, a 14 year old padwan living in Dehradun, India
<vibhav> I have been using Ubuntu since 6.10, but got the hang of Ubuntu from 7.04
<stgraber> wendar: congrats
<vibhav> I have been translating Ubuntu to Hindi for the past 6 months and have recently started traanslation for en_GB
<vibhav> (but thats simply cupy paste)
<vibhav> copy*
<vibhav> I have collaborated with fellow Hindi Translators to start a translation Drive to rectify common translation errors and got massive response
<vibhav> We are also working on improving the Wiki page and creating a list of replacemnet words for Hindi
<vibhav> Which can be seen on my Wiki Page
<vibhav> Apart from Translation
<vibhav> I fix small few bugs (typos and bugs fixed upstream but not brought into Ubuntu)
<vibhav> I also work on "Needs Packaging" and RFP bugs in Ubuntu\Debian and often package software that seems interesting to me
<vibhav> I have converted 6 friends to Ubuntu
<vibhav> and 1 of them uses it exclusively
<pangolin> Is this translation drive documented anywhere?
<vibhav> Mailing List
<pangolin> Could you link to it please?
<vibhav> sure
<vibhav> lemme see
<vibhav> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-l10n-hi/msg0003
<elky> Well, en -> en translations are more than copy/paste. Trash/Garbage, Color/Colour, etc...
<vibhav> yes
<vibhav> I forgot to mention that though
<greg-g> hmmm, that link doesn't work for me
<vibhav> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-l10n-hi/msg00031.html
<vibhav> I also test pre-release ISOs on Ubuntu for Papercuts and bugs
<vibhav> And try to fix them if they are easy
<vibhav> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14jM_vGDcBbio7ITwY_Q7JNW15eO5vrzjDWafnjehDns/edit
<vibhav> ^ are replacement words
<vibhav> I am currently learning python, which I would use for Ubuntu Development sooner
<vibhav> I am also working to be a MOTU
<cyphermox> vibhav: can you tell me more about what you've done for that?
<cyphermox> for instance, who you've worked with, packages you've touched; very briefly, since we're not really here to give membership based on development work :)
<vibhav> I know
<vibhav> I have packaged shc, unity-lens-bliss and indicators which are waiting approval in Debian\REVU
<vibhav> I am currently working on packaging ecere and sending it to Debian
<cyphermox> have you worked with anybody on this so far or has it been mostly on your own?
<vibhav> dholbach
<vibhav> and tumbleweed
<cyphermox> good
<vibhav> But I am focusing more on fixing bugs than translating softwareb :)
<vibhav> I meant packaging software and not translating it
<pangolin> vibhav, Why do you want to be an Ubuntu member?
<vibhav> It feels nice to be recognized memeber of the community
<Pendulum> vibhav: While we recognize that you've done quite a bit of translations work, if you can wait a little longer, a few months maybe to build up your experience and community work, please come back then. And, of course, if you're planning on going for MOTU that may be a more appropriate path to membership.
<vibhav> experience in terms of?
<greg-g> vibhav: if you have any questions about this, please feel free to email Ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com
<elky> Knowing your limits is kind of important, too. Needing to keep a member banned from #ubuntu to stop them trying to give tech support is really not something we want to have to do.
<greg-g> that goes to all membership review board members for all regions, just fyi
<vibhav> But didn't I collaborate (As I was said to do earlier)?
<greg-g> vibhav: thank you for listening to our advice, but we feel you should wait a while longer and work with people a little more closely. Again, if you have any questions, feel free to email us after the meeting
<Pendulum> okay, moving on
<Pendulum> ChrisGagnon: are you here?
<ChrisGagnon> Pendulum: hi
<pangolin> vibhav, I am encouraged by your interest in packaging and bug fixing, you sought out the help of great people like dholbach and tumbleweed. i still believe you need to work longer. this is my personal opinion, but I do look forwrd to the day I can attend a meeting and give the board my +1 for your membership. Please keep up the good work.
<Pendulum> #topic Chris Gagnon for Membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Chris Gagnon for Membership
<Pendulum> ChrisGagnon: Please introduce yourself
<ChrisGagnon> ork for Canonical as a QA engineer in the mainstream group.
<ChrisGagnon> oops
<ChrisGagnon> I work for Canonical as a QA engineer in the mainstream group.
<ChrisGagnon> Started using Linux in 1998. My linux progression went from Redhat -> Mandrake -> Gentoo -> Ubuntu. I started using Kubuntu in 2006 and regular Ubuntu starting with 11.04, because I like unity-2d.
<greg-g> "mainstream"?
<ChrisGagnon> It's part of the professional services engineering group
<greg-g> gotcha
<greg-g> I just thought Ubuntu was already "mainstream" :)
<ChrisGagnon> hah it is
<ChrisGagnon> :)
<greg-g> so, the only one in your loco's irc channel, eh?
<ChrisGagnon> I don't know how they came up with the name
<ChrisGagnon> right now, I have people drop by every now and then, but no one is on every day.
 * greg-g nods
<ChrisGagnon> irc is not popular in NH I think
<greg-g> is the NH team more active in other venues? (I hope) :)
<ChrisGagnon> It's been dead for a while and I am trying to revive it
<greg-g> cool, thanks for doing that
<ChrisGagnon> I had 8 people at the global jam last month
<ChrisGagnon> I think I will have more during the precise release party.
<greg-g> awesome, 8 ain't bad, really
<ChrisGagnon> my wiki link is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisGagnon
<Pendulum> okay, I think we're ready to vote
<Pendulum> #vote Chris Gagnon for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Chris Gagnon for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<elky> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elky
<elky> and i have to go, bye
<greg-g> We're waiting for one other board member to vote, but they wen't AFK for a minute
<greg-g> Unfortunately, that means this is the end of the meeting, sorry utlemming
<greg-g> "wen't"? I must be hungry.
 * jokerdino is back
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Pendulum> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Chris Gagnon for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Pendulum> ChrisGagnon: Congratulations and Welcome!
<ChrisGagnon> \o/
<greg-g> congrats ChrisGagnon !
<ChrisGagnon> thanks!
<jokerdino> congrats ChrisGagnon
<cyphermox> my sincerest apologies to everyone for dragging this on
<utlemming> greg-g: ack
<Pendulum> utlemming: We're verry sorry that we can't get to your application tonight, unfortunately you happened to be at a meeting with quite a few applicants
<Pendulum> #end meeting
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Mar 16 01:21:41 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-16-00.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-16-00.05.html
 * skaet waves
<ScottK> \o
<skaet> hiya ScottK.  :)
<ScottK> Hello.
<mdeslaur> \o
<brendand> \o
<skaet> good to see you brendand,  mdeslaur  :)
<mdeslaur> hi skaet
 * skaet hoping we get quorum at 1500 ;)
 * pitti waves hello
 * stgraber waves
<skaet> :)
<apw> o/
 * slangasek waves
<skaet> #startmeeting
 * Daviey does a little dance o/
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Mar 16 15:01:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Riddell> hi
 * skaet is suffering paste failure into the window... sorry for the delay
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Please remember to .. when you're done, and o/ if you want us to pause. :)
<skaet> Agenda can be found:
<skaet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-03-16
<skaet>  Individual team status links will be added to it from:
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - skaet
<skaet>  #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/thread.html
<skaet> .
<skaet>  Schedule is at:
<skaet>  #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<skaet>  #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/
<skaet>  .
<skaet> Upcoming Dates:
<skaet> â¢ 2012/03/22 - Beta Freeze at 2100 UTC
<skaet> â¢ 2012/03/22 - DocumentationStringFreeze at 2100 UTC
<skaet> â¢ 2012/03/29 - Beta 2
<skaet> .
<skaet>  Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<skaet>  #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, should be assigned to specific teams, so they can be found.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Individual Team Statuses Received by 1500 UTC:
<skaet> Hardware Certification -https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000947.html - brendand
<skaet> Quality Assurance - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000965.html  - jibel
<skaet> Security team  - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000963.html - mdeslaur
<skaet> Kernel team - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000945.html- apw
<skaet> Foundations - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000949.html-  slangasek
<skaet> Server -https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000967.html - Daviey
<skaet> Linaro - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000957.html - fabo
<skaet> Ubuntu One - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000951.html -  joshuahoover
<skaet> Desktop Team - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000958.html  - pitti
<skaet> Unity Framework Team - no update received - dbarth
<skaet> Unity Services and Settings -  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000962.html- Cimi
<skaet> Kubuntu -https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000961.html -  Riddell
<skaet> Edubuntu - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000953.html- stgraber or highvoltage
<skaet> Xubuntu - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000946.html - madnick or knome
<skaet> Ubuntu Studio - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000966.html - scott-work (use mail)
<skaet> Lubuntu  - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-March/000952.html - gilir (use mail)
<skaet> Mythbuntu - no update received - superm1
<skaet> .
<skaet> [TOPIC] Question and Answer Session
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Question and Answer Session
<skaet> .
<skaet> to get things started...
<skaet> Anyone against moving the meeting from 1600 to 1500 UTC for the remainder of the DST period (summer basically)?   For the skew period, we'll have it at 1500 UTC at a minimum, so not to be too obnoxious to the Europeans
<skaet> ?
 * skaet reminds folks to show hands now if they have questions, they can be queued up.  :)
<ScottK> Fine with me.
<pitti> +1 for 1500 UTC during summer
<ScottK> \o
<tumbleweed> doesn't affect me at all (we don't do DST)
<brendand> -1 (clash with scrum)
<mdeslaur> +1 1500UTC
<Riddell> +1
<stgraber> +1
<apw> +0 makes little difference to me
<skaet> brendand,  just during the transition skew or through entire period?
<Daviey> +0 slightly harder for me, but not the end of the world.
<slangasek> +0, dunno which cjwatson would prefer :)
<brendand> skaet, having trouble doing the numbers in my head :P
<brendand> skaet, i'll manage
<skaet> brendand,  great.  thanks.
<jibel> +1
<skaet> ok,   I'll move it on the schedule going forward,   we'll go back to 1600 after the summer ends.
<apw> skaet, i assume you mean "US summer" there
<pitti> just FTR, mvoing to 1500 UTC should mean that the local time doesn't change at all
<pitti> (since I noticed some people seem to have meeting conflcits)
<skaet> ScottK,  go ahead now,  I've got a bunch of questions lined up,  but you had your hand up first.
<skaet> :)
<ScottK> I'd like to discuss last night's archive breakage,  bug 934593, and wouldn't this better just wait until next cycle given where libpython/python are on multiarch?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 934593 in python-defaults (Ubuntu) "python-all-dev, python-dev must be Arch: any for multiarch" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934593
<apw> pitti, in this two week period (each end) when the US moves before/after us there might be
<ScottK> slangasek: ^^^
<skaet> apw,  daylight savings time (europe + US)  over wider skew period.  ;)
<pitti> I think this change would work if all buildds start building the package at the same time, but indeed it seems that it doesn't gain us much at this point?
<ScottK> Given doko's comments on the bug, I'm not sure what the benefit is of this?
<ScottK> pitti: I agree.
<slangasek> ScottK: it was clearly a case for an FFe from my POV, the upload took me by surprise
<slangasek> but the benefit is that it enables cross-installation of build-deps for a large swath of core packages
<ScottK> Even with the libpython issue?
<slangasek> I'm not sure
<slangasek> but that's why it's *theoretically* worth pursuing an FFe for
<ScottK> If the change is timed for when the bulidd's are idle, I think it's low risk, but the benefit ought to be sorted out before we try it again.
<slangasek> agreed
<ScottK> OK.  Would you please work with doko on sorting this out?
<skaet> slangasek,  if things are quiet towards the end of the Beta2 - try then?  or before?
<pitti> yes, that, or set one per arch on manual and do the build score bump dance
<slangasek> ScottK, skaet: it won't be for at least another week; we have the installer sprint next week mon-wed, then doko is off thu-fri.  So we can look at it after beta-2
<Daviey> So.. does it add enough benefit for release, or is it a distraction ?
<slangasek> (or the week of beta-2 if someone thinks that's a good idea)
<slangasek> having the core of Ubuntu cross-buildable is not a distraction for those who need Ubuntu cross-buildable
<Daviey> slangasek: Can you state a use-case?
<slangasek> but I'm not arguing per se for an exception - I need to talk to doko about this
<Daviey> slangasek: The way it seems to me is that this allows people to build any packages in amd64, easier?
<skaet> Daviey,  in particular it opens up some options for arm - linaro is cross building, btw.
<Daviey> ahh
<pitti> if you need me to do the buildd dance, can do; but I'm on a sick day on Monday, so better doing it Tuesday (or ask infinity to do the handholding)
<Daviey> ok, i can see reasoning :)
<slangasek> pitti: ack, thanks
<Daviey> pitti: you pre-plan your sick days?
<pitti> Daviey: getting my remaining two wisdom teeth pulled out, yes
<Daviey> ah :)
<pitti> I'll do stuff in the morning for sponsoring
<pitti> so if you are up for an early (EU) morning buildd dance, can do :)
<skaet> slangasek,  ok,  I'll ping you next week after your sprint.   let me know the FFe bug number when its opened,  so we can track this.
<slangasek> skaet: I would expect the already-opened bug to be used for the FFe, bug #934593
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 934593 in python-defaults (Ubuntu) "python-all-dev, python-dev must be Arch: any for multiarch" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934593
<skaet> slangasek,  ok - should probably be a different priority than is indicated, but we can clean it up, etc.
<skaet> assuming .. on this topic now.
<skaet> Jibel, is bug 950676 lucid->precise upgrade failure due to gir1.0->gir1.2 conflicts, the only remaining blocker you're aware of for us to start recommending people with lucid systems try the upgrade to 12.04?
 * skaet would like to be able to start to get wider feedback/testing on lucid -> precise upgrades with Beta 2.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 950676 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "lucid->precise upgrade failure due to gir1.0->gir1.2 conflicts" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/950676
<stgraber> I'm also happy to help with the buildd dance, just ping me when needed
<skaet> jibel, ^
<skaet> ok,  while waiting for jibel,  a couple of other ones to ask... ;)
<skaet> slangasek, https://bugs.launchpad.net/hw-labs/+bug/834731 is on Cert's list as a blocker,  is it on your radar for next week?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 834731 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Dell PowerEdge R810 fails to mount file system at /dev/sda1" [Medium,Incomplete]
<pitti> skaet: there are some more upgrade bugs to shake out first
<slangasek> skaet: no, and they've wiped the drive, it should be removed from the blocker list
<skaet> brendand, ^
<skaet> pitti,  thanks - is there a good summary somewhere?
<brendand> skaet, i think we'll remove the tag soon
<pitti> skaet: jibel's mail report summarized it quite well
<slangasek> they applied my suggested workaround, but without capturing the debug information we needed to be able to fix it
<brendand> skaet, that system boots fine now
<pitti> skaet: how about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=lucid2precise ?
 * skaet hugs pitti - didn't know about that tag.  :D
<skaet> yup, that will work.  thanks
<pitti> skaet: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=qa-daily-testing is also interesting, bugs discovered by the auto jenkins tests
<slangasek> I think the mono prerm bug would probably be good to fix before having people do lots of lucid->precise upgrades
<skaet> pitti,  indeed,  thanks.  :)
<skaet> thanks slangasek.
<skaet> apw,  how many of Cert's blockers are likely to be fixed with B2 drop?   Are there some its clear we won't get with the release?
<apw> skaet, i don't think i can give you a clear answer, there are a number which appear to have fixes nearly ready
<apw> skaet, what i propose to do, is complete my overview review, and email all of the assignees and get more concrete updates
<apw> skaet, and email the summary out early next week
<skaet> apw,  that works.  thanks.  :)
<brendand> apw, thanks
<skaet> ..  (and thanks brendand, pitti, slangasek, apw)
<skaet> any one else have questions or should I go on?
<pitti> ..
<skaet> dbarth or pitti - do either of you know if compiz will be picking up the OpenGLES in next week's drop?  or is compiz still planned to be bug fix only?
<pitti> I don't know, I'm afraid
<skaet> pitti,  ok,   I'm not seeing dbarth in the channel either.   Will follow up offline then.
<skaet> fabo, ^
<skaet> by the way,  before I forget,   Riddell,  congrats on getting Kubuntu active "activated" ;)
<Riddell> thanks :)
<skaet> tumbleweed, how is progress going on the FTBFS in universe?
<Riddell> still various bits to tweak but it's nice to have an ubuntu flavour for tablet at last
<skaet> :)
<tumbleweed> skaet: I'm not working on them atm, but other people are
<dbarth> i'm there
<tumbleweed> I don't have a handle on the progress, either
<tumbleweed> we're getting another rebuild soon, right?
<dbarth> skaet: compiz openGLES is in the hands of ogra; he is still working AFAIK on getting a good distro-patch for ARM only; GLES is not for Intel
<skaet> ogra_, ^ any updates?
<ogra_> nope
<ogra_> will update you once i have something
<fabo> we're still waiting
<ogra_> (we dont have a working 3D driver atm, waiting for kernel fixes etc)
<skaet> tumbleweed,  rebuilds need to be figured out.    Will work with you off line.
<ogra_> (its all in the works though)
<skaet> ogra_,  are there some bug numbers for those dependent kernel fixes?
<skaet> or a tag ;)
<ogra_> skaet, not to my knowledge, its all in ppisati's and rsalveti's hands
<fabo> skaet: dependency chain is compiz patch -> armhf driver -> kernel fixes
<ogra_> i'm just waiting for the go from them to then start on compiz
<apw> skaet, i will check with ppisati
<skaet> thanks fabo,  ogra_ - would like to get the specific bug numbers figured out so we can keep an eye on when its all landing.
<skaet> thanks apw
<ogra_> apw, i think he still waits for rsalveti to be done
<apw> ogra_, possible indeed ... will ask anyhow ..
<ogra_> skaet, well, then we need to file any bugs, i dont hink there are any since it was planned in a regular kernel update
<fabo> I'll look into bug numbers to better track ETA
<ogra_> (omap4 hasnt had the last merge yet)
<skaet> thanks fabo.  :)
<fabo> ogra_: I don't have any bugs reported either
<ogra_> right, i thought so
<skaet> .. I think on this topic.
<ogra_> ..
<fabo> ..
<skaet> anyone else have comments/questions before we end?
 * JackyAlcine walks in.
<skaet> Thanks for your participation, brendand, jibel, mdeslaur, slangasek, dbarth, Daviey, apw, fabo, pitti, Cimi, Riddell, stgraber, ogra_, tumbleweed
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Mar 16 15:41:10 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-16-15.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-16-15.01.html
<ogra_> thanks skaet
<skaet> have a good weekend all.
<mdeslaur> thanks skaet!
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<slangasek> thanks
<skaet> thanks ScottK (sorry missed you in the earlier thanks)
<ScottK> No problem.
<pitti> +1 on meeting format again; much more interesting that way
 * skaet wants others asking questions too though,   was feeling like a bit of a question hog :/
<pitti> well, they were some on the mailing lists
<slangasek> fwiw I didn't have a chance to read all the reports beforehand, or I probably would've had more questions :)
<skaet> pitti,  yup,  we'll keep up the experiment and discuss at UDS if we make it permanent.
<slangasek> (not a complaint about the format though, just a whine about being on the west coast)
<skaet> slangasek,  yeah,  if folks had them in the night before it would mean a bit more prep could occur.
<apw> skaet, you should set a deadline for 'em and official one
 * skaet thanks those who had them submitted on Thursday very much. 
<skaet> apw,  yes,   UDS discussion topic I think.  Was supposed to be Thursday night.
<rsalveti> skaet: ogra_: sorry, once the new kernel lands, we can push the sgx driver, I'm just cleaning the packaging bits now
<rsalveti> otherwise it'll freeze 4430 completely while booting
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> rsalveti, but there is no bug or anything about it, right
<rsalveti> ogra_: yes we have
<ogra_> (and i dont think we need one since the kernel was already uploaded)
<ogra_> ah
<ogra_> you are such a bureaucrat !
 * ogra_ hugs rsalveti 
<rsalveti> ogra_: bug 956672
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 956672 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu) "Broken support for SGX with Ubuntu-3.2.0-1408.11" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/956672
<ogra_> great, will add the right tags for kate :)
<rsalveti> perfect :-)
<rsalveti> thanks
<skaet> rsalveti, ogra_ :)  thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-03-11
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<bdrung> meeting in 10 minutes
<tumbleweed> hi
<stgraber> hmm, we should change !dmb-ping
<tumbleweed> action: stgraber?
<stgraber> tumbleweed: fine, I'll do it
<Laney> hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
<Laney> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 11 14:00:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is Laney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<darkxst> Hi
 * stgraber waves
<Laney> !dmb-ping is bdrung, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, ScottK, stgraber: DMB ping
<ScottK> \o
<bdrung> o/
<Laney> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<Laney> #subtopic Micah to send summary of PPU decoupling discuss to the DMB list
 * Laney looks for it
<bdrung> i can't remember reading one
<Laney> bad micahg
<Laney> so, carried I suppose ... This discussion drags on
<Laney> what about The Feedback? I still haven't seen that
<bdrung> me neither
<Laney> #action Micah to send summary of PPU decoupling discuss to the DMB list
<meetingology> ACTION: Micah to send summary of PPU decoupling discuss to the DMB list
<Laney> #action Micah to urgently send feedback on Bjorn's PPU application
<meetingology> ACTION: Micah to urgently send feedback on Bjorn's PPU application
<Laney> let's move on
<Laney> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PerPackageUploader Applications
<Laney> erm
<Laney> #topic Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
<Pici> Laney: factoid updated
<Laney> #subtopic Tim Lunn (darkxst)
<Laney> Pici: merci
<Laney> darkxst: you're up - howdy
<Laney> can you introduce yourself?
<darkxst> I am one of the main developers working on Ubuntu GNOME, and more generally just trying to make GNOME work great on Ubuntu
<Laney> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimLunn/DeveloperApplication
<Laney> anyone got a question to start us off?
<ScottK> darkxst: Have you been following Bug 1153224 and do you have an opinion on it?
<ubottu> bug 1153224 in systemd (Ubuntu) "[FFE] Move to logind for session tracking" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1153224
<Laney> darkxst: so - a lot of the GNOME remix work is done in the team's PPAs. Do you have any plans / ideas about how to do more of it in the archive? (ah, answer ScottK first)
<darkxst> ScottK, yes I think that will actually help us, but probably there will be some fall out with systemd checks getting confused
<darkxst> Generally consolekit support is entirely untested right now
<ScottK> If I read the bug right, you guys prety much NEED it?
<darkxst> ScottK, yes, however I don't think ConsoleKit has actually been dropped yet
<ScottK> No.  We're discussing it.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<darkxst> ScottK, I meant from the gnome side
<ScottK> Ah.  Right.
<Laney> I don't understand that dropping CK is a necessary part of the logind work
<jbicha> darkxst: do we need to move to logind for 13.04 or can that wait until 13.10?
<Laney> let's keep this on topic though
<Laney> excuse me for one minute - wind has just knocked a load of stuff over ...
<stgraber> Laney: you can technically run both (I'm doing that here), however you get into trouble if your session is registered only in CK and the rest of the desktop uses the logind API. That's why I don't think we'd release with both but would rather just ship one and make sure everything uses it.
<darkxst> jbicha, I suspect it can wait until 13.10, but who knows what gnome will drop after freeze
 * Laney 's bathroom has a nice layer of snow
<tumbleweed> it's a stunning warm, sunny day here :P
<Laney> stgraber: you're saying that "logind and ConsoleKit work fine side by side" is inaccurate?
 * ogra_ sends some grumbling tumbleweed's way 
<Laney> darkxst: you can answer my previous question now :)
<bdrung> we have snow _outside_
<Laney> we'll move that other conversation to #-devel ...
<ogra_> same here
<darkxst> Laney, that is kinda of hard, we already push as much as we can straight to the ubuntu archive, but the split in versions means much is stuck in the ppa
<ogra_> we had a temp. drop of 15 deg, C
<ogra_> over two days
<ScottK> darkxst: What split in versions (for those of us not familiar)?
<ogra_> (oops, sorry, missed whch channel i'm in)
<darkxst> Ok so Ubuntu sticking mostly with gnome 3.6 for Raring
<Laney> Do you think the current situation with the level of patching Ubuntu has in the system components (gsd/gcc/other) is sustainable? Or will we see forks? Would that be good or bad from a GNOME remix POV?
<tumbleweed> ScottK: I'm assuming the latest GNOME vs what the ubuntu-desktop team want?
<darkxst> and the ppa packaging is mostly gnome 3.8
<darkxst> Laney, the level of patching is insane
<darkxst> I can't see how that is sustainable in the long run
<barry> darkxst: that might be a good topic for the next vUDS
<bdrung> do you think that getting the amount of patches down to a maintainable amount?
<darkxst> I think to some extent forks would help, but also perhaps more effort to upstream patches
<bdrung> darkxst: you mentioned in your application that it takes too long to get patches reviewed. have you used the sponsoring queue? have you ping the patch pilots?
<darkxst> bdrung, yeh I ping the patch pilots, its more the SRU's etc that take forever
<tumbleweed> yeah, SRU review seems quite backlogged atm
<bdrung> darkxst: there are many steps in the SRU process. which steps took forever?
 * Laney nods
<bdrung> the waiting to get approved in -proposed?
<tumbleweed> yup
<darkxst> bdrung, yeh
<bdrung> that should be fixed.
<Laney> darkxst: I'd appreciate seeing you more in #ubuntu-desktop btw - with some direct contributions you could get desktop team membership like jbicha did
<bdrung> darkxst: my next question is: do you collaborate with Debian?
<Laney> s/some/some more/ - not minimising the work you already did :P
<darkxst> bdrung, not really so far, mostly just upstream gnome
 * Laney is ready to vote once bdrung is done
 * stgraber too
<bdrung> darkxst: i think that it would make sense to collaborate with Debian to not duplicate packaging work.
<bdrung> Laney: i am done.
<Laney> right
<darkxst> bdrung, yes, I agree, however they are well behind in gnome packages for the most part
<Laney> #vote Should Tim Lunn (darkxst) become an Ubuntu Contributing Developer?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Tim Lunn (darkxst) become an Ubuntu Contributing Developer?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<ScottK> +1
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<Laney> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Tim Lunn (darkxst) become an Ubuntu Contributing Developer?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> darkxst: welcome \o/
<bdrung> darkxst: debian experimental would be currently a good target.
<bdrung> congrats, darkxst
<Laney> They're doing 3.7.x in experimental ATM
<darkxst> Thanks!
<Laney> but spend your time however you see it being most profitable
<Laney> #topic Chair for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Chair for next meeting
 * tumbleweed looks forward to Ubuntu GNOME 's first official release
<Laney> that's stgraber!
<Laney> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<Laney> ?
<tumbleweed> DST? barry was saying something about US having DST change
 * barry sends his apologies for 25-march meeting
<Laney> oh, yes, I'll be on holiday in 2 weeks
<tumbleweed> \o/
<barry> tumbleweed: right, us went into dst this past weekend, i think eu goes into dst on 31-march
<Laney> yeah
<Laney> what's the problem?
<bdrung> there is no - just that the local time of the meeting will shift by one hour
<barry> only that there may be some confusion about start time until the tz shuffle quiets down.  i don't personally mind that the meeting is 1 hour later for me now
<ScottK> It doesn't matter either way for me either.
<stgraber> I'm perfectly happy with the current meeting time personally, 10am is much better than 9am for me :)
<Laney> heh
<Laney> For some reason this calculation always breaks my brain
 * bdrung prefers the time shift
<Laney> It becomes an hour later after this change, right?
<barry> i can't complain about 10am rather than 9am either :)
<bdrung> Laney: i can do the dmb-ping before the meeting if that will help you
<bdrung> Laney: yes
<Laney> so for me 1400 -> 1500, 1900 -> 2000
<bdrung> yes
<Laney> righto
<Laney> anyway, if that's it
<Laney> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 11 14:38:49 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-11-14.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-11-14.00.html
<barry> Laney: well, it's all relative.  i think we're saying we'll keep 1400utc and 1900utc, and just let you adjust your local start time based on dst
<Laney> yeah
<barry> cool. and thanks for running today's meeting!
<mdeslaur> \o
<mdeslaur> o/
<mdeslaur> \o
 * sbeattie waves
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 11 18:17:19 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> UDS was last week. We should now have our blueprints in order with what we want to work on for March all in place. Thanks for all your hard work on this!
<jdstrand> Thanks to Luke Faraone (lfaraone) who provided debdiffs for lucid for openafs (LP: #1145560). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1145560 in openafs (Ubuntu Quantal) "OpenAFS Security Advisories 2013-001 and 2013-002" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1145560
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> this is a short week for me-- I'll be off friday
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place
<jdstrand> I'm working on chromium-browser and thunderbird testing
<jdstrand> I've also got 2 embargoed items
<ScottK> jdstrand: BTW, the openafs SRU is released now, so there's no concern about what the security update should be based on.
<jdstrand> and patch piloting (should be finished soon)
<jdstrand> ScottK: ack, thanks :)
<jdstrand> sarnold is on community this week, so I'll pass that along
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> the nist website is down at the moment, so I can't pull fresh CVE info....I'll try again tomorrow and will work around it if their problem persists
<mdeslaur> I'm working on php5 and apache2 updates
<mdeslaur> I also have an embargoed issue i'm working on
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm dedicated again to apparmor stuff this week.
<sbeattie> I'll be continuing the work on the display manager prototype, and the work items related to that.
<sbeattie> And that's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up.
<tyhicks> I'll be working on the following work items:
<tyhicks> [tyhicks] library label permission query api (high) (2): INPROGRESS
<tyhicks> [tyhicks] dbus daemon, use library label permission query api (high) (1): TODO
<tyhicks> [tyhicks] dbus daemon, use aa_getpeercon - dbus (high) (1): TODO
<tyhicks> I'll also need to tend to some eCryptfs maintenance work
<tyhicks> There's renewed interest in an old patch that improves performance on newer hardware (mainly with SSDs and AES-NI support)
<tyhicks> cking has nicely done some indepth benchmarking and I'll need to give the patch one more review
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> so I am working on apparmor as well this week
<jjohansen> I have some more work on socket labeling and also on fixing stacking issues when the stack is split across a namespace
<jjohansen> and I will probably drop another present or 10 for sarnold to look at
<jjohansen> thats it, sarnold your up
<sarnold> I'm starting this week with the logind MIR; pitti decided to ask for a review of a newer package over the weekend rather than the version in raring, so I'll wind up taking longer than usual for this MIR as I'm duplicating some work already done...
<sarnold> after the MIR is done I'm liable to work on objectives this week, perhaps finally giving juju the time it deserves :)
<sarnold> I also understand jjohansen has a present for me! Woot. :)
<sarnold> jdstrand: back to you
<jdstrand> sarnold: from earlier in the meeting-- since you're on community, if the updated openafs debdiffs come in this week, apparently the version in -proposed has been accepted into updates (you'll see discussion of that in the bug)
<sarnold> jdstrand: thanks for the heads-up :)
<jdstrand> mp
<jdstrand> np even
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libjboss-cache2-java.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tinyproxy.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-parser.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pyfribidi.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/isync.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 11 18:38:13 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-11-18.17.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-11-18.17.html
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<tyhicks> thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<jdstrand> sure thing :)
<dark01_> hello every budy
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-03-12
<jamespage> o/
<roaksoax> o/
<smb> \o
<rbasak> o/
<arosales> hello o/
<plars> o/
<roaksoax> I'll give a couple more minutes before getting started
<roaksoax> alright so lets get started
<roaksoax> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 12 16:03:19 2013 UTC.  The chair is roaksoax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<roaksoax> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<roaksoax> Daviey send call for alpha-2-ish testing
<roaksoax> Daviey: ^^
<Daviey> that was canned
<roaksoax> alright let's move on then
<roaksoax> jamespage to milesone documentation updates [carryover]
<jamespage> no progress
<jamespage> sorry
<roaksoax> ok
<roaksoax> moving on
<roaksoax> jamespage discuss QA representation at Server TeamMeeting
<jamespage> done
<jamespage> plars attends now
<plars> we did that last time I believe, I'm here now :)
<roaksoax> awesome then
<roaksoax> [ACTION] jamespage to milesone documentation updates [carryover]
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage to milesone documentation updates [carryover]
<roaksoax> alright let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Raring Development
<roaksoax> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<roaksoax> we currently are past feature freeze
<roaksoax> Release Tracking Bug Tasks - http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<roaksoax> bug #1044503
<roaksoax> fixed
<ubottu> bug 1044503 in maas (Ubuntu Raring) "kernel command line is not easily customizable" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1044503
<roaksoax> bug #1064527 still unsure
<ubottu> bug 1064527 in maas (Ubuntu Raring) "detect_ipmi needs improvement. detects non-existant device in nested kvm" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1064527
<roaksoax> bug #1073463 i'm gonna look into it since maas trunk just hit archives last week
<ubottu> bug 1073463 in maas (Ubuntu Raring) "User-configurable files are not installed in /etc" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1073463
<roaksoax> bug 1092715
<ubottu> bug 1092715 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Raring) "udevadm trigger --action=change not working in quantal and raring" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1092715
<roaksoax> serge doesn't seem to be around
<roaksoax> anyone have any info of the above?
<Daviey> I suspect hallyn will be here shorty, lets circle back
<roaksoax> ok
<roaksoax> bug #1133608
<ubottu> bug 1133608 in keystone (Ubuntu Raring) "Duplicate entry '9fe2ff9ee4384b1894a90878d3e92bab' on db_sync" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1133608
<roaksoax> zuk is not arround
<roaksoax> jamespage: adam_g ^^?
<jamespage> roaksoax, I'll take that but I think its fixed upstream
<roaksoax> ok good!
<roaksoax> jamespage: this is yours bug #1153066
<ubottu> bug 1153066 in quantum (Ubuntu Raring) "L3 Agent Failed sending gratuitous ARP" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1153066
<jamespage> will land in distro this week with rc1
<roaksoax> awesome!
<roaksoax> finally bug #1100920
<ubottu> bug 1100920 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Raring) "In Ubuntu 12.10, the legacy 'user' cloud-config option is not handled properly" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100920
<roaksoax> smoser: ^^
<smoser> looking. i think maybe fixed.
<smoser> yeah, i'll fix that.
<roaksoax> \ok cool
<roaksoax> Blueprints - http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html
<roaksoax> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-ha
<roaksoax> so most of the stuff charm wise is done, or almost done and undergoing testing
<roaksoax> jamespage: anything to add^?
<jamespage> last few charm bits are landing this week
<jamespage> but all-in-all looking pretty good!Â¬
<Daviey> roaksoax: hallyn here
<roaksoax> jamespage: cool. I also need to finish the filesync with mysql
<hallyn> \o
<jamespage> roaksoax, yeah - its all bug fixing from here on in IMHO
<jamespage> I expect to find races
<roaksoax> jamespage: cool! so lots of tests to come (in real HW) right :)
<jamespage> no comment
<roaksoax> ok let's get back to hallyn for a bit. bug #1092715
<ubottu> bug 1092715 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Raring) "udevadm trigger --action=change not working in quantal and raring" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1092715
<roaksoax> hallyn: ^^
<hallyn> roaksoax: right - afaik that should now be being worked around ok
<hallyn> qemu-system-x86 is manually forcing the user/perms on that twice
<hallyn> if that's still a problem, please shout.  otherwise i'm going to wait for consolekit to be burned at the stake, and let that solve it
<jamespage> hallyn, I think it might be
<hallyn> jamespage: still a problem, or solved?
<jamespage> (but I've been testing on precise for the last couple of days)
<jamespage> hallyn, no - still a problem
<jamespage> hallyn, what should /dev/kvm look like when 'correct'?
<jamespage> in terms of permissions
<hallyn> jamespage: ok, if it is, then please shout, and be very detailed about which of the meany situations you're seeing :)
<hallyn> root:kvm 660
<jamespage> I see root:root 660 I think
<jamespage> let me spin up a raring deployment and I'll let you know
<hallyn> thx
<hallyn> jamespage:
<hallyn> qemu-system-common.postinst manually does chgrp kvm /dev/kvm, so i sure do hope not
<hallyn> (though then udev gets pinged, so it might be UN-doing that...  grrr)
<hallyn> anyway, we can discuss elsewhere - thx roaksoax  :)
<roaksoax> alright
<roaksoax> let's continue with BP's
<roaksoax> hallyn: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-lxc :)
<hallyn> roaksoax: yes?
<roaksoax> hallyn: any updates?
<roaksoax> hallyn: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-lxc :)
<hallyn> roaksoax: i suspect that dlezcano's items will be postponed...
<hallyn> i'm working on unprivileged container creation+use, but otherwise userns is postponed till past raring
<hallyn> (except in ppa, where it works just fine :)
<roaksoax> ok! sounds goot then
<roaksoax> good*
<roaksoax> then moving on, zul is not here, so let's skip https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-grizzly
<roaksoax> unless someone has info
<roaksoax> seems not
<roaksoax> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-maas-next-steps
<roaksoax> so last week I uploaded maas to -proposed for both precise and quantal, so it is up to the SRU team to accept it and I'll do a call for testing
<roaksoax> smoser: any updates? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-image-access
<smoser> :-( not many
<roaksoax> :( alright! i'll move on then
<roaksoax> jamespage: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-ceph
<roaksoax> any updates ?
<jamespage> we should get another bobtail point release before raring releases
<jamespage> need to get the testing setup to support MRE's but aside from that all good
<roaksoax> awesome
<roaksoax> ok so if there's no other BP we should be discussing
<roaksoax> i'll move on
<roaksoax> or unless someone has something else to talk about raring Development
<roaksoax> Daviey: ?
<roaksoax> I guess not
<roaksoax> let's move on then
<roaksoax> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<roaksoax> any event's comming up?
<arosales> Pycon coming up
<arosales> hazmant and mramm will be their giving talks
<jamespage> \o/
<arosales> https://us.pycon.org/2013/
<jamespage> ODS +1 month
<roaksoax> awesome
<roaksoax> ok it seems there're no more events coming soon, so lets move on
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<roaksoax> plars: howdy!
<plars> hi
<plars> one quick thing today
<plars> The LXC tests still seem to be failing even after the update to lxc 0.9.0~alpha3-0ubuntu3 (see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxc/+bug/1144873)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1144873 in lxc (Ubuntu) ""lxc-execute: Failed to find an lxc-init" Error during lxc smoke tests" [High,Fix released]
<plars> Here are the details from the latest run log: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Raring/view/Smoke%20Testing/job/raring-server-i386-smoke-lxc/125/artifact/clientlogs/utah-6020-raring-server-i386_lxc.run_2013-03-12_15-03-42.yaml/*view*/
<roaksoax> hallyn: ^^
<plars> amd64 runs are still going after the latest respin, the results above are from the latest completed i386 run.
<hallyn> hm
<hallyn> "dunno"
<hallyn> added to my list
<hallyn> thx
<plars> thanks
<hallyn> plars: note i never was able to reproduce any of those
<hallyn> but it seems you're really hammering that box :)  making things very slow inside the vm
<hallyn> so i perhaps need to reproduce that
<hallyn> run 4 utah runs at once
<plars> hallyn: we can try it when the system is a bit more quiet, see if it changes anything
<plars> but typically when we see failures due to too many VMs simultaneously, they look different
<plars> VMs fail to start, libvirt timeout errors, etc
<hallyn> plars: hah, well if there's a race there's a race, no sense 'wrking around it' by giving an ideal env :)
<hallyn> no no, i believe it's an lxc bug, just haven't reproduced it myself
<plars> no, I wasn't suggesting that, just that if you wanted us to, we could see if that changes things
<hallyn> i don't think it's libvirt/qemu's fault
<hallyn> plars: that could be informative
<hallyn> just so i know that's not what i need to be trying to reproduce
<plars> nothing else from me at the moment
<roaksoax> alright
<roaksoax> let's move on then
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<roaksoax> smb: howdy!
<smb> I have been preparing a Xen 4.2.1 update for Raring (Debian has not
<smb> made one yet). Even though not in sync with Debian this is released
<smb> by Xen upstream as stable updates. If someone is willing to look/
<smb> sponsor its at chinstrap:~smb/4review).
<smb> I was generally wondering whether this (given some recent statements
<smb> about LTS point releases) would be a worthwhile option for previous
<smb> releases, too. Not completely upgrading but pull in Xen stable (eg.
<smb> update 4.1.x to 4.1.4 in Q and P at least). This is not expected to
<smb> be decided here. Just throwing the idea into the air.
<smb> Daviey, arosales, on a related matter ogasaware sent you email. It
<smb> would be awsome if there would be a reply. ;)
<smb> That would be all from my side. If there are no questions that is.
<smb> ..
<smb> and howdy. :)
<arosales> smb: will take a look
<arosales> smb: ah re oprofile
<smb> arosales, yup
<arosales> smb: ok, will get with Daviey and respond
<arosales> smb: sorry for the delay
<smb> arosales, looking into the xen features. at least compile for now
<smb> arosales, Cheers. :)
<roaksoax> alright, so if noone else has something to discuss with smb
<roaksoax> lets move on
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report. Any questions for me?
<Daviey> smb: yeah, got the mail - wasn't ignoring it :)
<smb> Daviey, nor replying either (as far as I was able to see) ;)
<roaksoax> ok since it seems there's no questions for rbasak , let's open the floor for:
<Daviey> smb: generally, the longer the original mail - the longer in time it takes to reply. :)
<roaksoax> err
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<roaksoax> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<roaksoax> there we go, anyone have anything to discuss today?
<roaksoax> or would like to share with us?
<Daviey> thanks all for vUDS being successful !
<Daviey> make sure BP's are in all inorder
<arosales> +1 on vUDS
<arosales> roaksoax: I have one
<roaksoax> arosales: shoot :)
<arosales> if folks are interested in giving Go Juju a try 1.9.11 is out, and feedback and testing would be appreciated.
<roaksoax> awesome!!
<roaksoax> GoJuJu!!
<arosales> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/juju/2013-March/002172.html
<arosales> roaksoax: thanks
<arosales> ..
<roaksoax> arosales: thank you fgor letting us know
 * roaksoax is meeting up with zul in St. Pete this weekend
<arosales> roaksoax: sure, np.
<roaksoax> anyway. let's get this to an end
<arosales> ah so that is where chuck is at :-)
<roaksoax> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<roaksoax> arosales: yeah that's were he is... tanning at the beach in FL!
<roaksoax> alright, next meeting
<roaksoax> same place, time (Note the Timezone change)
<roaksoax> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 12 16:48:54 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-12-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-12-16.03.html
<roaksoax> thank you all for coming
<Daviey> Thanks roaksoax !
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 12 17:00:08 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<bjf> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<smb> \o
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> R/master: nothing new this week.
<ppisati> R/omap4: verified that pvr-omap4 doesn't work with our multiplatform 3.8 kernel,
<ppisati> i'm waiting input if we can drop the omap4 dekstop image.
<ppisati> R/nexus7: ported overlayfs from P (lp1076317) - awaiting testing from a
<ppisati> brave soul since my nexus7 is borked ATM (lp1126836).
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-delta-review               || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-r-secure-boot             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-r-aarch64                 || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-arm-kernel-maintenance     || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-kernel-misc                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || rtg       || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> The above summarizes the remaining work items owned by individuals on
<ogasawara> our team for the rest of the 13.04 cycle.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Since our last meeting 2 weeks ago, we have rebased to the latest v3.8.2
<ogasawara> upstream stable kernel.  We've also added Haswell ULT NFC, I2C, SPI, and
<ogasawara> SATA RTD3 support, USB3 port power off capability, prime support for
<ogasawara> nouveau and radeon, and other misc config updates and bug fixes.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Raring:
<ogasawara>   * Thurs Mar 21 - 13.04 Final Beta Freeze (~2 weeks)
<ogasawara>   * Thurs Mar 28 - 13.04 Final Beta Release (~3 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin> == 2013-03-12 (weekly) ==
<sconklin> Currently we have 46 CVEs on our radar, with 10 CVEs added and 1 CVE retired this week.
<sconklin> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/henrix)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until tiday (Feb. 26):
<bjf>   *   Hardy - Nothing this cycle
<bjf>   *   Lucid - In Prep; (2 commits)
<bjf>   * Oneiric - In Prep; 4 upstream releases; (68 commits)
<bjf>   * Precise - In Prep; 2 upstream releases; (197 commits)
<bjf>   * Quantal - In Prep; 2 upstream releases; (175 commits)
<bjf> Due to a regression, the Quantal kernel and it's derivatives have been
<bjf> respun.
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>   * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> >>
<bjf> >> Note: The week of March 21 is the week the last Hardy and Oneiric kernels may be built.
<bjf> >>
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> ogasawara, go
<ogasawara> I just wanted to formally welcome kamal back to the team
<ogasawara> ..
<kamal> ogasawara: thanks!  happy to be here!  :-)
<jsalisbury> kamal \o/
<kamal> ..
<kamal> \o/
<apw> welcome
<rtg_> dude, welcome back
<cking> ditto
<smb> yup
<kamal> thanks all!
<jsalisbury> Any other open discussion or questions?
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 12 17:05:28 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-12-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-12-17.00.html
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-03-13
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Mar 13 15:03:31 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round$ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round$ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> barry ogra jodh ev doko bdmurray cjwatson stgraber xnox stokachu slangasek
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> barry ogra jodh ev doko bdmurray cjwatson stgraber xnox stokachu slangasek
<slangasek> :-)
<slangasek> barry's not here - ogra?
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * discussions, discussions, discussions about phablet ...
<ogra_>  * vUDS ...: foundations-1303-cdimage-android-builds
<ogra_>  * helped the community guys to get WIFI running on samsung phones
<ogra_>  * started looking into x86 android for qemu supporting images (sadly not a CM10.1 variant so it will need quite some changes)
<ogra_>  * debugging a boot issue when ubuntu phablet was used on an nx7 a subsequent desktop install starts with a black screen
<ogra_>  * tested nx7 image installation
<ogra_>  * added manifest syncing to the cdimage phablet-sync script
<ogra_>  * started work on getting an ubuntu-phablet seed into our branch (though that might be moot before 13.04 since many conflicting packages (NM, ofono ...) wont be ready i was told, so we cant build images)
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * move nx7 desktop image to pxz ... the debian bug was fixed, we just need a merge of busybox now (xnox is on it)
<ogra_>  * finish the ubuntu-phablet seed (only 65 packages on top of ubuntu-minimal)
<ogra_>  * test ac100 lubuntu image for beta1 (and fix possible issues)
<ogra_>  * go on working on x86 android base for phablet qemu images
<ogra_>  * meeting on friday about how to handle raring images even with conflicting packages (see above)
<ogra_> ..
<xnox> ogra_: any news on dropping panda-desktop? or not yet final?
<ogra_> oh, right
<ogra_> we will drop it
<ogra_> i need to write a nice note to ubuntu-devel :)
<jodh> * blueprints:
<jodh>   - foundations-q-upstart-stateful-re-exec:
<jodh>     - Updated Upstart Cookbook for Upstart 1.7 and publicised.
<jodh>     - Finished file bridge and raised MP on lp:upstart. Awaiting feedback:
<jodh>       https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/file-bridge-MP/+merge/152767
<jodh>     - Wrote apport hook for upstart - needs review and ideally a fix for
<jodh>       bug 1154536 before it's added to the package.
<jodh>   - foundations-r-upstart-roadmap: no progress.
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>   - on holiday yesterday.
<jodh> ð¯
<ubottu> bug 1154536 in Apport "provide ability for apport to detect modified conffiles reliably when not running as root" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1154536
<cjwatson> ogra_: I read that as "get UEFI running on samsung phones" and was scared
<ogra_> lol
<ogra_> yeah, UEFI and grub :)
<ev> pass (still typing)
<xnox> #action xnox to merge busybox
<meetingology> ACTION: xnox to merge busybox
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> stealing power from slangasek ?
<xnox> #action ogra_ to email u-d about panda desktop EOL
<meetingology> ACTION: ogra_ to email u-d about panda desktop EOL
<ogra_> ++
<xnox> ogra_: AlanBell taught me tricks on #ubuntu-irc ;-)
<slangasek> ogra_: ubuntu-phablet seed> even if the image builds don't move to nusakan before 13.04, I think it's important to get any phablet builds that *are* being done to use the shared view of the package list... jenkins should be pulling from the seed + livecd-rootfs config, not using its own definition
<ogra_> slangasek, thats why it is on my TODO for next week :)
<bdmurray> oh, is it my turn since ev passed and doko is not here?
<slangasek> ogra_: ok :)
<ogra_> will also help users that want to run live-build at home
<ogra_> (linke the one who just asks in #ubuntu-touch)
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes
<bdmurray> patch-pilot
<bdmurray> virtual UDS
<bdmurray> uds lightning talk on new errors features
<bdmurray> code reviews for evan
<bdmurray> tested user parameter on errors.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> speed and logic improvements to the most common problems table in resources.py for teams
<bdmurray> modified most_common_problems.js to be better when switching from packages to users and back
<bdmurray> updated most_common_problem.js to update UI based on url parameters (package, user and period)
<bdmurray> wrote a pycassa query to discover regressions using bucket systems
<bdmurray> wrote a pycassa query regarding package crash rate
<bdmurray> worked on and merge proposal for errors API feature for rate of crashes
<bdmurray> modifications to rate of crashes branch based of ev's feedback
<bdmurray> submitted rt 59711 regarding updating error-tracker-dependencies
<bdmurray> reporting, research into and fixing of bug 1148015
<bdmurray> reporting, and research into bug 1148116
<bdmurray> updated error-tracker-dependencies for python-lazr.restfulclient related to the move of launchpad.py
<ubottu> bug 1148015 in Daisy "launchpad.py says a PPA package is a source package but tells you it has no binaries" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1148015
<ubottu> bug 1148116 in apport (Ubuntu) "not all packages from PPAs have '[origin: ' in Package section" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1148116
<bdmurray> research into bug 1056061 regarding FirstSeen being wrong
<ubottu> bug 1056061 in Errors ""First seen" version is wrong in release-specific table" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1056061
<bdmurray> worked with webops regarding the import user packages cronjob
<bdmurray> research into gap in release:src_pkg counter
<bdmurray> debugged an issue with first seen and last seen being null in the most-common-problems table
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal for less than 5 bucketids branch of errors
<bdmurray> reported errors bug 1154275 regarding empty failed buckets
<ubottu> bug 1154275 in Errors "bucket page for failed retraces empty" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1154275
<bdmurray> reported bug 1154356 regarding release package counter ttl
<ubottu> bug 1154356 in Daisy "release package counter's ttl does not work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1154356
<bdmurray> investigation into quantity of bugs being tagged regression-update
<bdmurray> looked for packages to be removed from -proposed that are removal candidates
<bdmurray> research into session installer bug 1056545
<ubottu> bug 1056545 in sessioninstaller (Ubuntu) "session-installer crashed with AlreadyCalledDeferred in callback()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1056545
<bdmurray> testing of bug 967229
<ubottu> bug 967229 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "Text mode shown briefly with various "cryptic" texts when logging out or shutting down" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967229
<bdmurray> consolekit upload for bug 1130923
<ubottu> bug 1130923 in consolekit (Ubuntu Quantal) "consolekit: ck-get-x11-display-device segmentation fault" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1130923
<bdmurray> blogged about using launchpad users at errors.ubuntu.com
<ev> wooooooooooo! Thanks for all the awesome investigative work this past week
<bdmurray> â done
<cjwatson> Release process discussions.
<cjwatson> Fixed the notorious LP override-copying bug 1152149.
<cjwatson> Fixed the cause of LP bug 1152669.  Some DB cleanup still needed.
<cjwatson> Set up image building for new UbuntuKylin and Ubuntu GNOME flavours.
<cjwatson> Cleaned up problems caused by LibreOffice help conflicts, with Bjoern.
<cjwatson> Fixed a lurking bug in grub2's kernel hook that broke Edubuntu image builds.
<ubottu> bug 1152149 in Launchpad itself "Combining async copying and deletion loses overrides" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1152149
<cjwatson> Expanded grub2's ACPI halt handling to cope with current seabios.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1152669 in Launchpad itself "Soyuz allows me to delete packages from a RELEASE pocket of a CURRENT series" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1152669
<cjwatson> Currently working on bug 869825 (trying to figure out how to fix it without breaking translations), and probably diving into +1 maintenance shortly thereafter.
<ubottu> bug 869825 in console-setup (Ubuntu Raring) "French (Switzerland) is no longer a layout choice in the installer" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/869825
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> Incidentally I need brain bleach to cope with having spent a day with the ACPI spec.
<ogra_> beer might help
<ogra_> lots ...
<xnox> cjwatson: intersting about ACPI halt, would that also fix not being able to reboot VirtualBox after installation finishes?!
<slangasek> bdmurray: what was the outcome of your investigation into the regression-update bugs?  Will there be a wording change in the dialog that's been prompting users about whether the bug showed up after an update?
<cjwatson> xnox: No
<cjwatson> Unrelated I'm afraid
<xnox> ack.
<stgraber> Feature work:
<stgraber>  - Upstart (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements)
<stgraber>   - Fixed upstart user session re-exec.
<stgraber>   - Some more rework of Xsession/user jobs in the PPA.
<stgraber>   - Pushed upstart 1.7 to the archive.
<stgraber>   - Pushed user jobs to dbus, gnome-session and gnome-settings-daemon.
<stgraber>  - Container (BLUEPRINT: servercloud-r-lxc)
<slangasek> hmm why is update-manager crashing and burning here all of a sudden
<stgraber>   - Usual code review.
<bdmurray> slangasek: that was removed from xdiagnose which was the bulk of them,  I've subscribed to the tag now (-linux) and it is relatively quiet.
<stgraber>   - Plumbers planning.
<stgraber>   - Backport to precise.
<stgraber>   - Call on moving phablet to LXC.
<stgraber>   - Various fixed to the UTAH tests.
<stgraber>   - Implemented nesting support in lxc-ls
<stgraber>   - Preparing 0.9~rc1 (pull request due later today)
<slangasek> bdmurray: ok, great
<stgraber>  - Networking (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-networking)
<stgraber>   - isc-dhcp quantal SRU
<stgraber>   - Looking into MAAS/isc-dhcp bug.
<stgraber>   - General follow-up triage of networking bugs.
<stgraber>   - Got feedback from IS wrt IPv6. archive.u.c and security.u.c are now dual-stack.
<stgraber>   - Got new SIM cards to test dual-stack 3G (multiple PDP contexts)
<stgraber> New work:
<stgraber>  - Plenty of vUDS sessions.
<stgraber>  - Work on plan for device updates. Spent most of yesterday in calls, have a pretty good plan now that needs to be written down.
<stgraber>  - Get NM integrated with ofono. The work has been split in more WI and I'm now rebasing my work on current NM and sending it to Mathieu for further work.
<stgraber> Other work:
<stgraber>  - Installer: bug 944614
<ubottu> bug 944614 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with AttributeError in keyboard_variant_timeout(): 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'apply_keyboard'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944614
<stgraber>  - Some queuebot fixes.
<stgraber>  - Tested grub2 UEFI PXE.
<stgraber>  - Found and help debugging a libssl/libgnutls regression
<stgraber>  - Release
<stgraber>   - UDS/release cadence discussions
<cjwatson> stgraber: grub2 UEFI PXE> and?
<stgraber>   - Preparing beta1 for participating flavours
<stgraber>   - Helped setup UbuntuKylin and Ubuntu GNOME
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - LXC 0.9~rc1 release
<stgraber>  - Some isc-dhcp bugs
<stgraber>  - ifupdown SRU
<stgraber>  - Continue planning the mobile update process
<stgraber>  - Rebase NM-ofono patch and send to cyphermox
<stgraber> (DONE)
<stgraber> cjwatson: that was for the time I tried before you had a look. So it was starting fine but failing to retrieve anything over tftp.
<cjwatson> OK
<cjwatson> Huh, everyone else seems to be reporting two weeks of work; oh well
<xnox> * uds - todo mobile updates & packaging follow ups.
<xnox> * before and a bit after a quick guile 1.6->1.8 transition done,
<xnox>   please remove guile1.6 bug #1154491
<xnox> * u1 ubiquity plugin is complete, pending one.ubuntu.com deployment,
<xnox>   final testing, FFe approval, and merge/upload. bug #1153731
<xnox>   lp:~xnox/ubiquity/main-u1
<stgraber> right, I had a stack of notes for the pre-UDS week that I bundled in there
<ubottu> bug 1154491 in guile-pg (Ubuntu) "Please remove guile-1.6 from the archive" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1154491
<xnox> * uploaded ubiquity FF release with fix ups afterwards
<ubottu> bug 1153731 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "[FFe] Ubuntu One sing in or up or skip plugin" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1153731
<xnox> * patch pilot / mostly mutliarchifying
<xnox> * Prepated and uploaded openssl SRUs for bug #1083498 bug #1066032 bug
<xnox>   #1018522 (pending infinity / doko to review that it does not explode
<xnox>   the world).
<ubottu> bug 1083498 in openssl (Ubuntu Quantal) "please enable arm assembler code in openssl" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1083498
<xnox> * Merged up some patches for lvm2 thin_provision support
<ubottu> bug 1066032 in openssl (Ubuntu Quantal) "Deadlock when reading a public key" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066032
<xnox> * My shiny new Gigabyte motherboard needs a older family cpu to upgrade
<xnox>   bios to support the cpu I bought *sigh* =(
<xnox> * Requested overlayfs support for nexus7, and ppisati implemented
<xnox>   that. Tested his hand compiled kernel, works great. Should be
<xnox>   landing in the archive soonish.
<xnox> ..
<stokachu> Jury duty Mon/Tuesday, catching up on emails and bugs
<stokachu> Currently working bug 1121874, bug 859600 (getting sru's in shape).
<stokachu> xnox, bug 778627 - just so im clear on this status with an updated sru template are we still considering fixing this for precise?
<stokachu> (done)
<ubottu> bug 1121874 in mysql-5.5 (Ubuntu) "MySQL launch fails silently if < 4MB of disk space is available" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1121874
<ubottu> bug 859600 in gnome-keyring (Ubuntu Precise) "Please convert gnome-keyring to multiarch" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/859600
<ubottu> bug 778627 in bash (Ubuntu Precise) "In natty, bash completion now quotes shell variable references rather than expanding them" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/778627
<slangasek> xnox: RMA the motherboard and make them send you one with a current firmware? :)
<slangasek>  * vUDS - great discussions, everyone!
<slangasek>  * post-UDS blueprint rastling
<slangasek>  * discussions with pitti about systemd uplift for logind support; this is going ahead, libudev has an ABI transition now in -proposed
<slangasek>  * patch pilot day Monday
<slangasek>  * libnih,upstart reviews for the file bridge
<slangasek>  * fighting a swap death issue with the raring kernel (bug #1152736)
<ubottu> bug 1152736 in linux (Ubuntu) "system swapping itself to death in raring for no good reason" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1152736
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> ev:
<cjwatson> overlayfs> oh, great, I asked for that a couple of months ago too
<ev> - Working with jjo to get daisy writing a percentage of the core files to
<ev>   Swift, with the rest still on NFS. Lots of code review and iteration, but
<ev>   we've finally deployed \o/. We're running 1% on Swift for now, but we're
<ev>   about to jump up to 10%. After this we'll get started on putting some
<ev>   retracers on prodstack, talking to Swift and the Rabbit queue.
<ev> - Working on code to properly remove items from the retracer queue. Long story
<ev>   short (iknowright?), we've got a lot of "problems" that we've never retraced
<ev>   because we deleted their core files and message off the Rabbit queue, but
<ev>   they're still sitting in a Cassandra column family.
<ev> - Code review for Brian as part of his phased updates work.
<ev> - Fixed all our cron jobs (importing bug data, creating the unique systems over
<cjwatson> (bug 1076317)
<ubottu> bug 1076317 in ubuntu-nexus7 "please add aufs/overlayfs/unionfs support to android based kernels" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076317
<ev>   90 days running counts, etc) when they broke with the path reorg. Re-ran the
<ev>   import scripts manually over the missing days.
<ev> - Set up Google Anayltics for errors.u.c.
<ev> - Fixed our SSO integration so that users not in an approved group get knocked
<ev>   back to the front page with a helpful error message, rather than just looping
<ev>   on the SSO login page.
<ev> - Finally got libcassandra-dpkgversiontype-java deployed to the production
<ev>   Cassandra cluster. Started reworking the code to rebuild the BucketVersions
<ev>   CF (mapping of problems to the Ubuntu releases and versions they occur in,
<ev>   with counters for the latter), only to have a brainwave that we've been using
<ev>   counters all wrong. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and instead of
<ev>   pretending like over/undercounting isn't a problem, we'll write wide rows as
<ev>   well, using these to repair the counts in cron jobs overnight. Started
<ev>   writing some code to do exactly this:
<ev>   http://paste.ubuntu.com/5608424/
<ev> - Investigated why we weren't getting whitelisted in SSO, and fixed. This had
<ev>   to do with the way we were handing off from Apache frontends to HAProxy to
<ev>   Apache WSGI runners. You'll now no longer get prompted with a page where you
<xnox> stokachu: it's marked incomplete by me. If someone steps up to write an extended / complete SRU template, with procedures how to enable direxpand, i'll be happy to sponsor that SRU. Otherwise it will just fall off the radar.
<ev>   can select what Launchpad user data (your teams, email address, etc) to
<ev>   Errors - we'll get it automatically and there's nothing you can do about it
<ev>   (bwahaha).
<ev> - Fixed some bugs in lp:daisy and lp:errors found via
<ev>   http://errors.ubuntu.com/oops-local.
<ev> - Meeting with Amrit, Matthew, and Luca to discuss the navigation structure for
<ev>   errors.ubuntu.com and other Ubuntu project sites.
<ev> - Came up with a plan for fixing the average errors per calendar day graph,
<ev>   adjusting for population growth:
<ev>   http://paste.ubuntu.com/5608021/
<ev> (done!)
<stokachu> xnox: cool ill follow up with a more proper sru and procedure
<ev> slangasek: where do we stand on that NDA?
<ev> ps anyone else completely locked out of lcy02?
<ev> I get 403 forbidden if I try to do anything with it
<xnox> cjwatson: yeap, that's the bug for nexus7. Pull request is up already, so should land soon =)
<cjwatson> 'juju status' seems to work for me on lcy02
<cjwatson> if that helps ...
<ev> cjwatson: weird. I'll call support and whinge.
<xnox> slangasek: instead of doing RMA, I ordered a 25 GBP cpu (1.6GHz single core, non-threaded, celeron) and will use it to upgrade my motherboard and then return this baby cpu back where it's comming from =))))
<slangasek> ev: no progress on the NDA question; I need to circle around on that, sorry
<slangasek> xnox: heh, ok
<ev> slangasek: no worries, just keep me posted :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Blueprints
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprints
<slangasek> so there are relatively few blueprints coming out of vUDS that are in need of drafting, since we have quite a bit of carry-over work that we're still going on with
<slangasek> but for any new blueprints that did come out of vUDS, please make sure you get your drafting done by EOB tomorrow
<slangasek> also, we have a new set of milestones in launchpad, to be able to track work on a per-month basis for UE's internal management purposes
<slangasek> please use these for targeting of all phone-related work items / blueprints
<slangasek> (so for stuff that's happening in march, use ubuntu-13.04-month-5, not ubuntu-13.04-beta-2)
<slangasek> also, for your previously-blueprinted workitems from Copenhagen, please review and check if the monthly milestone would be a more appropriate target for that work
<slangasek> this will help with internal planning, to be able to see "work being done in March" in one place (ish)
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs/errors/defects
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs/errors/defects
<slangasek> bdmurray: so aside from teamviewer8 being insane and breaking the fabric of space-time... what should we be paying attention to?
<bdmurray> I ran across bug 1143359 and while it is assigned to the hwe team wondered if we had any insight for them
<ubottu> bug 1143359 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Dell Latittude 6340u - Systems will not boot in uEFI mode" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1143359
<slangasek> bdmurray: I've seen other bug reports that booting under uefi boot to black; let me look those up
<slangasek> bug #1129524
<ubottu> bug 1129524 in linux (Ubuntu) "Precise & Quantal won't boot in UEFI" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1129524
<slangasek> but, 1143359 doesn't give a very clear description of what "Doesn't boot" means
<slangasek> oh; "both systems were installed via PXE using legacy PXE boot mode."
<slangasek> so why would that be expected to give you a useful UEFI-enabled result?
<slangasek> cjwatson: ^^?
<cjwatson> Er, yes, I missed that
<cjwatson> It wouldn't
<cjwatson> I've left a comment
<cjwatson> Does sound like tester error
<slangasek> cjwatson: ta
<bdmurray> thanks, okay then we have bug 120689 regarding update-manager partial upgrades.
<ubottu> bug 120689 in update-manager (Ubuntu) ""Not all updates can be installed" dialog has unclear buttons & unselectable text" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120689
<bdmurray> It seems that at least there should be a cancel option but I seem to recall large discussions about partial upgrade being terrible
<bdmurray> or a bad idea
<cjwatson> Well, it is, it's just terrible in both directions
<cjwatson> As I think I said in that bug
<slangasek> I thought there was a "cancel" option, which takes you into something that doesn't look much like cancelling
<slangasek> but, I think the more serious issue is that "partial upgrade" doesn't make any sense, and the explanatory text explains nothing about what your choices are
<cjwatson> I definitely agree the path should be towards getting rid of the partial-upgrade case, but I'd like to have some experience with how things do with my recent update-manager changes first
<slangasek> well, my experience is that I've gotten the dialog again this week as a result of two separate packages
<slangasek> (libreoffice, foomatic-db)
<slangasek> bdmurray: so, I think it would be worth us taking a pass at wordsmithing the dialog
<xnox> cjwatson: ubuntu-distro-info --help
<slangasek> bdmurray: interested in tackling this yourself?  if not I can take a look
<bdmurray> slangasek: I'm still pretty busy with errors and phased updates work
<slangasek> ok - please assign it to me
<bdmurray> then there is bug 1130284
<ubottu> bug 1130284 in icu (Ubuntu) "Libreoffice crash when typing some Malayalam text using ibus" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1130284
<slangasek> (would assign it myself, but my browser is currently putting my processor in a headlock)
<xnox> #action disable -proposed in the upgrader, and for existing pre-release users who have it enabled.
<meetingology> ACTION: disable -proposed in the upgrader, and for existing pre-release users who have it enabled.
<cjwatson> icu> that's just a backport, right?
<cjwatson> or cherry-pick I suppose
<slangasek> xnox: I hope you don't expect me to send out meeting minutes with these actions for you ;)
<xnox> slangasek: meetinology will give me a url at the end of the meeting ;-)
<cjwatson> Oh, and a trivial one at that
<cjwatson> I'll take the icu bug
<bdmurray> thanks, then bug 1056545 which is similar to or the same as bug 848605 which was "fixed" some time ago
<ubottu> bug 1056545 in sessioninstaller (Ubuntu) "session-installer crashed with AlreadyCalledDeferred in callback()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1056545
<ubottu> bug 848605 in sessioninstaller (Ubuntu Precise) "session-installer crashed with AlreadyCalledDeferred in callback()" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/848605
<bdmurray> errors is showing it still occurring with the fixed versions of the package
<bdmurray> anybody?
<cjwatson> Might be best to try to get hold of Sebastian Heinlein for that one?
<cjwatson> Oh, or maybe Julian Andres Klode, I think I misremembered the maintainer
<bdmurray> okay, I'll try that and try creating a test case for it since the previous bug didn't have a great one
<bdmurray> bug 1152222 seems to be a regression in pycurl
<ubottu> bug 1152222 in pycurl (Ubuntu) "pycurl fails with TypeError: string argument expected, got 'bytes' " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1152222
 * stgraber has to run to another meeting (in 2min)
<slangasek> whee, GPU hang.
 * xnox can look into pycurl.
<ogra_> slangasek, Mir will fix that :P
<bdmurray> xnox: thanks
<bdmurray> then with bug 1152254 the webcam step is just going away right?
<ubottu> bug 1152254 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Webcam is not capturing the image during raring desktop installations" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1152254
<slangasek> ogra_: I disbelieve :)
<ogra_> heh
<xnox> ogra_: the one that crashed, the one that needs  approval, or the not yet finished one?
<ogra_> the GPU hangs of this world
<xnox> bdmurray: me and Laney fixed regression in gstreamer. Webcam should be working again.
 * xnox will ask for that user retest, once I retest with my webcam (which also was affected)
<bdmurray> xnox: ah okay
<bdmurray> that's about it from me
<slangasek> bdmurray: thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> I do have one other minitopic
<slangasek> (if I can find the blueprint amid the mess of my desktop on the floor)
<slangasek> there's a blueprint out of vUDS on the client track covering getting Ubuntu Touch merged into the archive
<cjwatson> For that icu bug, does anyone know how to get Ctrl-Shift-u to work for Unicode input?  Doesn't seem to for me
<slangasek> I volunteered us to help, and seb128 has assigned a set of work items to me - I need volunteers for them :)
<slangasek> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1303-delivering-touch-apps-to-raring
<slangasek> does someone want to take the lead on these packages: platform-api, qtubuntu, qtubuntu-sensors?
<xnox> slangasek: do you know what those actually mean?
<slangasek> xnox: those are the names of packages from the Ubuntu Touch preview
<slangasek> xnox: for more details, talk to didrocks :)
<xnox> oh, ok.
<xnox> I can take one, qtubuntu-sensors sounds fun.
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> it's not urgent anyway, so we can continue picking them off later
<slangasek> and I think that's it unless anyone else has something
<xnox> it's an oportunity to learn integration with jenkins and daily auto landing black magic =)
<slangasek> yep :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Mar 13 16:06:45 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-13-15.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-13-15.03.html
<slangasek> ok, thanks everyone!
<xnox> cheers
<ogra_> thanks !
<baba> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-03-14
<JackYu> stgraber: the announcement of ubuntukylin could be set to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuKylin/1304-beta-1-ReleaseNote
<tette> ola
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-03-10
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<Laney> last time that one gets used :(
<barry> :( - but it has been fun!
<Laney> \o/
<stgraber> #startmeeting Ubuntu DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 10 15:03:53 2014 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> apparently I'm the chair, though I just realized it so give me a minute to actually go look at the agenda :)
<tumbleweed> o/
<stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<stgraber> Add Daniel Pocock's upload rights, waiting on reply from Daniel (stgraber).
<stgraber> done
<stgraber> #topic Confirm election results (Laney)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu DMB Meeting | Current topic: Confirm election results (Laney)
<stgraber> Laney: you're up
<Laney> ok
<Laney> thanks to all the candidates and outgoing board members :-)
 * Laney goes to press the big butan
<Laney> Ok, there we go
<Laney> prospective new members are micahg, xnox and bdmurray
<Laney> congratulations!
<tumbleweed> indeed
<barry> congrats!
<Laney> #vote Confirm the nominations of micahg, xnox and bdmurray to the DMB
<Laney> stgraber: do that please
<stgraber> #vote Confirm the nominations of micahg, xnox and bdmurray to the DMB
<meetingology> Please vote on: Confirm the nominations of micahg, xnox and bdmurray to the DMB
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Laney> +1
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<stgraber> is that everyone?
<Laney> everyone who is here, anyway
<micahg-work> wait, should I abstain?
<stgraber> good enough
<Laney> and it seems to be beyond doubt
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Confirm the nominations of micahg, xnox and bdmurray to the DMB
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> welcome
<stgraber> micahg-work: wouldn't make a difference really ;)
<Laney> So the new terms start tomorrow
<micahg-work> congrats bdmurray and xnox
<Laney> stgraber: can you take an action to add them then?
<Laney> or in 8 hours when the current ones expire
<stgraber> #action stgraber to add the new DMB members, update the IRC bot, wiki, mailing-list subscriptions, IRC ACLs, ...
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to add the new DMB members, update the IRC bot, wiki, mailing-list subscriptions, IRC ACLs, ...
<Laney> I have been planning to send some kind of update of things we should do and think about
<Laney> to start the new term off
<Laney> Will try to do it tomorrow, but I'm off the rest of the week after today so we'll see
<Laney> anyway, that's that
 * xnox yeah, thanks =)
<stgraber> Laney: I'll send an e-mail to the list once the new members have been added, the old ones removed, ... feel free to reply to that one
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Core dev application: Adam Stokes
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu DMB Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core dev application: Adam Stokes
<Laney> ok
<stgraber> stokachu: around?
<micahg-work> I think he said he'd have trouble making this meeting
<stgraber> ah, ok, then we can start with hallyn and see if he shows up later
<hallyn> hi
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Core dev application: Serge Hallyn
<stgraber> hallyn: hey there
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu DMB Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core dev application: Serge Hallyn
<stgraber> sorry, IRC was a bit laggy here, apparently I'm back :)
<stgraber> hallyn: can you introduce yourself, your work and your application please?
<hallyn> Sure,
<hallyn> I'm a member of the ubuntu server team.  I generally babysit the virt stack - lxc, qemu, libvirt, netcf ,and the like.
<hallyn> my application is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SergeHallyn/CoreDevApplication
<hallyn> I've been generally happy with the package upload rights that I have,
<hallyn> but am applying for coredev in the hopes of being more generally helpful.
<hallyn> (without always being a burden to someone to sponsor)
<barry> hallyn: how's qemu 2.0 looking? :)
<hallyn> it's looking good!
<hallyn> now we have to hope upstream sticks to its schedule
 * barry has been meaning to try it to see if it fixes the crashes with certain builds
<hallyn> the new trusty kernel also may fix some crashs fwiw
<stgraber> since nobody's asking questions, let's start with the usual ones
<tumbleweed> hallyn: so, what are you wanting to maintain in Debian?
<stgraber> are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce@lists.ubuntu.com?
<hallyn> stgraber: I am
<hallyn> tumbleweed: I currently maintain netcf.  would like to have upload rights for that. want to ITP vimprobable2;
<hallyn> would like to help out eventually with shadow, libcap2, lxc,
<hallyn> i'm on the maint team for qemu
<stgraber> probably get cgmanager into Debian too?
<tumbleweed> I would hope DM is only going to be a stepping stone towards DD, then
<tumbleweed> :)
<hallyn> that too :)
<hallyn> tumbleweed: yup
<stgraber> (the lack of both cgroup-lite and cgmanager in Debian and the usually broken state of LXC in there is really annoying...)
<hallyn> stgraber: that will of course force the systemd+cgmanager issue, but yes.
<hallyn> it needs to be addressed anyway :)
<stgraber> yep
<barry> hallyn: i'm glad to see LP: #1284793.  in the packages you maintain, do you have any other FFes?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1284793 in qemu (Ubuntu) "[FFE] Merge qemu 2.0" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1284793
<hallyn> barry: I don't.  zul has an FFE for libvirt for 1.2.0.
<hallyn> (I had an ffe for cgmanger, but it is fix released now)
<hallyn> oh wait,
<hallyn> there may be one for lxc for stacked apparmor profiles, if the core support goes into kernel int ime
<barry> hallyn: k, thanks
 * Laney needs to bug you both about lxc /dev/{console,tty*} handling that he noticed breaks user switching today :-)
<Laney> about your UDD complaints in the "What I like least" section --- do you see anything that can be done about it?
<hallyn> Laney: well on a project by  project basis, simply agreeing on whether to use the bzr tree for staging fixes in advance;
<hallyn> i'd personally prefer it if dput refused if the lp tree had changes
<Laney> One of the main benefits was having a standard way to work with source package
<Laney> but given that there's no engineering happening on UDD it's hard to see any of the wishlist items being addressed
<hallyn> right, and right now there are two standard ways (or more)
<Laney> or even any of the bugs
<hallyn> yeah :(
<Laney> so, short of someone free software-ing up a fix, I wonder what can be done
<hallyn> for my own side, i may just need to whip up a script that does that checking for me
<hallyn> in lxc, i always fear i'll wipe a change by stgraber;  in vmguider, it goes the other way bc i work from lp:vmbuilder, but for isntance xnox had recently made a package-onlychange
<Laney> yeah
<Laney> the importer certainly used to propose back merge proposals if the archive overwrote something
<Laney> I'm not sure if that still works
<hallyn> that *would* be neat.
<Laney> xnox might know
<stgraber> yeah, for LXC I always stage and keep lp:~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/lxc/trusty in sync but the importer is just completely broken, ubuntu:lxc doesn't work and auto-imports don't either...
<barry> at least bzr branch ubuntu:foo complains if the source branch is out of date now.  when i see that, i fallback to apt-get source
<hallyn> for years, qemu and libvirt would fail to auto-import every time.
<barry> (then import the .dsc an viola! a bzr branch)
<hallyn> in my ideal world, we could tag a bzr ttree to say "publish this as pkg" :)
<Laney> It's a bit sad that we've not gotten over the line with UDD
<hallyn> but i know that won't happen at this point
<stgraber> barry: sort of, try branching ubuntu:lxc for fun ;)
<Laney> ScottK was quite prescient when we started writing the 'packaging guide' a couple of years ago
<stgraber> barry: we have a UDD branch, but the ubuntu:lxc alias is broken for whatever reason
<Laney> he pushed back on it being as UDD-heavy as it is
<barry> stgraber: yay
<Laney> but sadly wasn't listened to so it's turned out to be a bit split brained
<hallyn> stgraber: oh i thought i was misuing the ubuntu: shortcut :)
<stgraber> hallyn: nope, it's just UDD being horribly broken with LXC, you need to use the full path (lp:~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/lxc/trusty)
<xnox> Laney: hallyn: since importer doesn't look at "trunk" branches, e.g. lp:vmbuilder, it wouldn't help in the case hallyn mentioned.
 * barry cries a little inside
<micahg-work> hallyn, I notice that most of your endorsements come from teammates or former teammates, I know that you're engaged with other developers in the community as well, I was wondering if you approached anyone else for testimonials outside of that list (no need to name names) and if you got any other feedback
<Laney> I'm asking about the merge-backfeature
<hallyn> xnox: yes.
<Laney> s/back/back /
<Laney> I don't remember seeing that stuff in the queue, but it could just be because nobody pushes to UDD any more
<xnox> Laney: it generates some branches still, but i don't think it proposed to merge them any more.
<stgraber> micahg-work: he did approach me (we're not on the same team technically) but I sort of forgot to write a testimonial ;)
<hallyn> micahg-work: hm, i'd have to look at the list;  there was one, who said he only saw one pkg he had sponsored for me so felt he could only do a personal endorsement
<micahg-work> ok, right :), that probably would've preempted by question :)
<micahg-work> s/by/my/
<stgraber> so btw, I've been working with hallyn a long time, been reviewing quite a lot of his packaging changes (he always asks when unsure), been sponsoring quite a few of his changes and they're usually of great quality. It'd be nice having him be able to touch the rest of the archive (outside of the ubuntuserver package set) especially given his interest in +1 maintenance.
<stgraber> ^ there you go :) sorry for being late
<micahg-work> wfm
 * Laney is all outta Qs
<stgraber> #vote Serge Hallyn for Ubuntu Coredev
<meetingology> Please vote on: Serge Hallyn for Ubuntu Coredev
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Serge Hallyn for Ubuntu Coredev
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> hallyn: congrats!
<Laney> w00t
<hallyn> thanks :)
<stgraber> added to ~ubuntu-core-dev
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<tumbleweed> yeah, one thing
<tumbleweed> who wants to take over the membership-monitor cronjob?
<tumbleweed> I can give you a tarball of the current state
<stgraber> tumbleweed: send it to me, I'll get it running somewhere
<tumbleweed> cool
<tumbleweed> ah, I see the bzr repo already belongs to be board
<Laney> oh god, I really ought to figure out that packageset script
<Laney> I re-ran it the other day and it confused me even more by giving mozjs24 to edubuntu
<micahg-work> I've been wanting to poke at that for a couple years now
<stgraber> blame cjwatson ;)
<Laney> :P
<stgraber> so before we wrap, I'd just like to say a big thank you to barry and tumbleweed for serving on the DMB for so long (2 years and 2 years and 2 months respectively), all the best!
 * cjwatson hides
<tumbleweed> thanks, it's been a pleasure
<stgraber> and again congratulations to the new members, xnox and bdmurray. And to micahg-work for sticking with us for another term!
<barry> stgraber: thanks!  it's been a great experience, thanks largely to the other fantastic members on the board.  congrats to the new members.
<Laney> \o/
<Laney> thanks chaps
 * Laney goes to hassle stgraber and hallyn in another channel
<stgraber> :)
<stgraber> ok, so I think that's a wrap. It'll take me a while to do all the paperwork (picked the wrong meeting to chair...) but I'll send an e-mail to the private list once it's all done and the announcements to u-d-a as I'm done with the changes.
<stgraber> thanks everyone!
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 10 15:48:49 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-03-10-15.03.moin.txt
<barry> thanks!
<micahg-work> thanks stgraber
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello
 * sbeattie waves
<jjohansen1> o/
 * mdeslaur waits for chrisccoulson
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: ready?
<chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, not quite. feel free to start without me :)
<mdeslaur> o
<mdeslaur> ok
<mdeslaur> I'll wait a few minutes and then will start
<mdeslaur> ok. ,starting
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 10 16:41:23 2014 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> This week is UDS! Please take a look at the schedule and subscribe yourselves to anything that looks security relevant
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of any previous action items
<mdeslaur> hrm
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: did you send oxide and qtwebkit benchmark results to mailing list?
<mdeslaur> ok, let's get back to him later
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<chrisccoulson> just need to hit the send button ;)
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: oh, cool, so I won't add it as an action then, thanks
<chrisccoulson> ok, i'm done with my other meeting now
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> and, as usual, am going down the CVE list
<mdeslaur> it's UDS, so i'll be spending some time attending sessions
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm focused on apparmor again this week
<sbeattie> I think the packaging bits on my end are mostly resolved, waiting for sarnold's testing results
<sbeattie> I'll be focusing on jjohansen1's ipc patchset this week
<sbeattie> and keeping an eye on UDS as well.
<sbeattie> That's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: tag, you're it.
<tyhicks> I'm still trying to wrap up dbus and move to apparmor
<tyhicks> my dbus-daemon v2 patches are done (along with 3 new patches for a bug fix and a missing feature)
<tyhicks> I'm testing them now and will have them submitted this afternoon
<tyhicks> then the rest of the week is kdbus and helping out with apparmor work items
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen1: you're up
<jjohansen1> so I am working on apparmor again this week, there is some more revision to the ipc work to be done, and also work on stacking for lxc
<jjohansen1> there are also some open bugs that need tracked down, that I am hoping to get to or delegate this week
<jjohansen1> And of course following UDS as well, coordinating with sbeattie, and tyhicks
 * sbeattie senses a target on his back
<mdeslaur> hehe
<jjohansen1> oh and sarnold on the 2.95 snapshot he is prepping
<jjohansen1> sbeattie: you mean I have to actually hit, I was hoping this was more like hand grenades and could just lob stuff in your general direction, and get sarnold and tyhicks at the same time
 * sarnold falls over
<mdeslaur> lol
 * mdeslaur loads paintball gun with apparmor bugs
<jjohansen1> I think that is it from me, sarnold you are up
<sarnold> I'm on triage this week
<sarnold> sbeattie, jjohansen1, and i have finally gotten an apparmor package that passes QRT! I haven't done much use-testing with it yet, just simple "oh hey look is does kinda work" runs
<sarnold> big thanks to john and steve for fixing the worst of the problems
<tyhicks> nice!
<tyhicks> sarnold: just to make sure that I didn't miss a memo, this will be versioned as 2.8.95, correct? (jj said 2.95 above)
<sarnold> yeah, it's definitely nice to say "it passes our test suite", which feels like a nice minimum to stick with before uploading to trusty. :)
<sarnold> tyhicks: right 2.8.95.
<tyhicks> thanks
<sarnold> so, jjohansen1 sent out another huge patchset that I suspect we'll need for trusty; we should see how the packages do against the tests with those patches integrated
<sarnold> there were enough of them that I don't think I can give a realistic review of them all in the time we have available to us, certainly not while still doing triage and MIR audits
<sarnold> I skimmed the first patch and it looked familiar and it looked fine, so I hope that trend continues through the other patches
<mdeslaur> sarnold: are you making any progress in the MIRs?
<sarnold> but there is the chance that one or another of them would introduce something that'd break QRT again
<sarnold> mdeslaur: I ACKed thermald last week and filed a CVE request for a minor issue in the codebase..
<mdeslaur> cool
<sarnold> mdeslaur: so one down N to go :) heh
<mdeslaur> (literallty)
<sarnold> lol
<mdeslaur> sarnold: are you done?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: not yet..
<sarnold> so, I think I'll give the patches from john a very fast read, probably too fast, but I' really like all those checked into trunk, so we can keep moving forward with the 2.8.95 release
<sarnold> I could handle them all as individual patches in debian/patches/series but it'd triple the patches i the package, and I'd really like to avoid that..
<sarnold> anyway, I guess that's me done.
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: you're up
<chrisccoulson> this week, i'm finishing off my network delegate work for oxide (which is what will enable the browser to override the user-agent string for each HTTP request). i was hoping to finish that last week, but hit an issue with my original plan
<chrisccoulson> (this is complicated by the fact that it all happens on chrome's IO thread, and code execution in qml can only happen on a single thread)
<chrisccoulson> once that's done, I've got another bug i need to get done to unblock olivier with some geolocation work
<chrisccoulson> and then I'm going to spend time reviewing merge proposals, which have been neglected a bit for the last couple of weeks
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: you had "reimplemented the script messaging API on the renderer side" last week
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: is that done, or is it still to do?
<chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, oh, that's done: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~oxide-developers/oxide/oxide.trunk/revision/395
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: cool
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mc.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnucash.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/filezilla.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xmonad-contrib.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mplayer.html
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 10 17:09:25 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-03-10-16.41.moin.txt
<jjohansen1> thanks mdeslaur
<sarnold> thanks mdeslaur
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: thanks!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<stokachu> stgraber: sorry was traveling for a sprint today
<stokachu> ill make the next one
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-03-09
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
<jjohansen> o/
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar  9 16:35:27 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> today I am working on finishing up the review tools tests for snappy with what is currently defined in the packaging yaml
<jdstrand> I made a lot of progress last week and my changes introduced no regression with click reviews
<jdstrand> I have some finetuning to do for snappy
<jdstrand> I'll be doing uploads and syncing with the store team
<jdstrand> I have performance reviews to do
<jdstrand> that will be my main focus for the rest of today and coming days
<jdstrand> I hope to pickup the frameworks and hw access topics for snappy later in the week
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> my turn I guess
<jdstrand> ah yes, sorry
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up :)
<mdeslaur> I'm working on fixing the ABI break that broke the icu update last week
<jdstrand> was that only on precise?
<mdeslaur> and after that, I have php5 and apache CVEs to fix
<mdeslaur> yeah, only precise
<mdeslaur> I reverted the fix for now, so no rush
<mdeslaur> but I think I've got it now
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it for me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week
<sbeattie> I managed to get snappy set up, and am seeing the same dhclient profile issue that jdstrand saw.
<sbeattie> I need to get back to gcc testing
<sbeattie> Sorry, I plan to dig into the systemd/dhclient issue a bit more.
<sbeattie> I also need to review some apparmor patches and prepare for our monthly meeting.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm on the bug triage role this week
<tyhicks> I am running an ecryptfs-update through some automated tests that I wrote last week and kirkland is doing manual testing
<tyhicks> that means that the ecryptfs-utils fix will land upstream and in ubuntu today if testing all goes as planned
<tyhicks> (stable releases and vivid)
<tyhicks> I expect to spend some time addressing feedback from the libapparmor cache loading patches that I sent to the list last week
<tyhicks> hopefully we can get all of those reviewed and landed upstream this week with a landing in vivid happening shortly after
<tyhicks> and I'll be working on AppArmor kernel keyring mediation for user data encryption
<tyhicks> jjohansen and I need to do one last sync regarding the apparmor and overlayfs issues and then pass some info around that back to jdstrand
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am on apparmor again this week. I have some stuff to prepare for tomorrows apparmor meeting. I am going to finish up the patch review I started last week, I expect discuss the libapparmor policy api some more. Possibly file some bugs for the vivid issues that are annoying me the most.
<jjohansen> I need to follow-up with the kernel team on where Bug 1423810 and 1408833 are at (not applied yet).
<jjohansen> there will be some discussion around the overlayfs issue with tyhicks and jdstrand
<jjohansen> And of course do some more upstream cleanup, and submit a small set of patches upstream.
<ubottu> bug 1408833 in AppArmor "broken postinst test for uvtool-libvirt on utopic" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408833
<ubottu> bug 1423810 in linux-manta (Ubuntu) "apparmor fd_inheritance regression test causes kernel to crash on touch kernel backports" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1423810
<jjohansen> I think that is it from me, sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm one cve triage this week, it's another short week for me; I'm also working on MIR audits, and will switch over to openstack work wheh the server team has precise-essex work finished. I could do the TestungOpenstack stuff with locasl vms, but I'm feeling mighty behind on MIRs
<sarnold> I thihnk that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> This week, I shall be continuing work on 2 Meizu bugs. Hopefully will have those done this week
<chrisccoulson> I still also need to get oxide out (that will probably be tomorrow)
<chrisccoulson> I've just got Chromium and Firefox updates out
<chrisccoulson> And I plan to work on my review queue as well
<chrisccoulson> I think that's about it
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: by "get oxide out", do you mean an upstream release?
<tyhicks> (and if so, what will that version number be?)
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, yeah - that's the version in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-security/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> sarnold: re precise-essex openstack work> is there progress on that? (ie, is the server team actively working on making it happen)?
<tyhicks> sarnold: I think you should only use TestingOpenstack for precise testing
<tyhicks> sarnold: and serverstack for everything else
<jdstrand> sarnold and I discussed that a bit before
<jdstrand> there is a vm I uploaded that is TestingOpenstack, TestingOpenstack is up to date for precise and QRT test-openstack.py has a --setup-something that should mostly work for openstack
<tyhicks> jdstrand: there was an update on the serverstack precise-essex status last week: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-charm-testing/+bug/1423579/comments/2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1423579 in OpenStack Charm Testing "essex bundle needed for testing as it is in-support for +3yrs" [High,New]
<tyhicks> jdstrand: we'll need to follow up to see what their current feeling is regarding precise-essex support
<tyhicks> sarnold: can you do that follow up? ^
<jdstrand> tyhicks: yeah-- that is what prompted my question. I wasn't sure if there was more beyond that
<tyhicks> sarnold: 2 or 3 weeks back, we decided to shift focus to a few urgent MIRs and then last week we decided to continue MIR work while waiting one more week for serverstack to gain precise-essex support
<tyhicks> sarnold: I don't think we should push the updates back any more unless there are MIRs that are very urgent
<tyhicks> we can discuss this more offline
<tyhicks> jjohansen: the kernel is at 4.0-rc3
<jjohansen> tyhicks: yep
<tyhicks> jjohansen: that only gives you 2 or 3 weeks to prepare a pull request in order to land patches in 4.1
<jjohansen> tyhicks: right, I need to get the first small series up this week
<tyhicks> jjohansen: cool - I think libapparmor patch review and preparing a kernel patch series for upstreaming are the two biggest items for you this week
<jjohansen> right
<tyhicks> (and it already sounds like those are the biggest items that you're thinking about)
<tyhicks> cool
<sarnold> tyhicks: okay; I st5ill need to finish the actual MIR bits of python-saml2 and python-repoze.who; 1381450 and 1427852 and 1427861 are still not yet started
<tyhicks> sarnold: ok, lets discuss more after the meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xpdf.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/exactimage.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/zookeeper.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libuser.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/jquery-jplayer.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar  9 17:08:44 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-09-16.35.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-03-10
<arosales> Hello
<matsubara> o/
<beisner> o/
<arosales> I'll be chairing this week as I was didn't get minutes out last week #fail
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 10 16:04:42 2015 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<arosales> smoser follow up on #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server not working
<arosales> looks to be working for ubuntu server now, at least there are bugs there
<smoser> horay. thanks.
<arosales> not sure if they are the correct ones, but there are bug there
<arosales> arosales update QA Team rep to matsubara
<arosales> this has been updated in the IRC meeting commands
<arosales> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> #info User Interface Freeze this week
<arosales> #info Final Beta Freeze on March 26
<arosales> right around the corner
<arosales> How are FFE that have been filled going?
<arosales> hmm . .  . I hope well, please ping here if there are any that folks are blocked on or that could use some help.
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<arosales> got a few highs and criticals listed here
<arosales> critical: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-5.6/+bug/1427406
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1427406 in mysql-5.6 (Ubuntu Vivid) "data corruption on arm64" [Critical,Confirmed]
<arosales> sorry,
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-5.6/+bug/1427406
<arosales> mariadb and mysql issues here
<arosales> data corruption :-/
<arosales> smoser: jamespage you guys seen this one?
<smoser> oh joy.
<arosales> arm64 confirmed, uncertain on other archs such as ppc64el
<smoser> well, it looks like dannf is looking into it.
<smoser> or ate least was.
<smoser> but i'll follow up
<arosales> smoser: thank you
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/neutron/+bug/1429739
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1429739 in neutron (Ubuntu Vivid) "neutron-server does not start: OperationalError: (OperationalError) no such table: ml2_vlan_allocations" [High,New]
<dannf> smoser: yeah, haven't made any more progress since i found the upstream regression
<arosales> this one was assigned to james page.
<arosales> jamespage, that is
<arosales> coreycb: fyi ^
<jamespage> I know will look at it next week
<arosales> jamespage: thanks
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/landscape-client/+bug/1427275
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1427275 in landscape-client (Ubuntu Vivid) "clean cloud images of python2" [High,Confirmed]
<arosales> smoser: is this one with you?
<arosales> I see a branch out there by ~strikov
<smoser> its with me, yeah.
<arosales> smoser: thanks
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1409639
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1409639 in juju-core "juju needs to support systemd for >= vivid" [High,In progress]
<arosales> looks like a patch was landed on March 2, I'll comment on what release this is targetted for.
<arosales> rbask ^ (for the logs)
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pacemaker/+bug/1427408
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1427408 in pacemaker (Ubuntu Vivid) "pacemaker init.d script lacks runlevel definition" [High,In progress]
<arosales> also with jamespage, looks like it is pending release time and patch is identified -- just a reminder for jamespage next week to check with the release team
<jamespage> arosales, waiting on the release team for the ack on the FFe for that one
<arosales> that covers the critical and highs, please try to get this bugs in before we get too close to beta freeze
<arosales> jamespage: thanks for the update.
<arosales> #subtopic Blueprints
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<arosales> 3 BPs
<arosales> all 3 in red atm
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-server-core
<arosales> this one is with rbask, not online atm
<arosales> look like some have been postponed but need to see how the other 3 in todo are progressing
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-openstack-kilo
<arosales> zul: this one is with you
<zul> *sigh* keep forgetting
<arosales> needs updating, or are some of these items going to be postponed?
<zul> ill have a look
<arosales> zul: thanks
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-openstack-charms
<arosales> with gnuoy
<arosales> I think some of these are going to be postponed and gnuoy was working to find out which was were the heaviest hitters
<arosales> other BPs not on the tracking:
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-cloud-init  - smoser
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-osci -- beisner
<beisner> ahh, updating that as we speak ;-)
<arosales> as we approach beta freeze be sure to have BPs updated and/or talk to release team on which ones are going to make it
<arosales> beisner: thanks
<arosales> for ref the other BPS @
<arosales> #link #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-server
<arosales> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
 * arosales doesn't see caribou here atm
<arosales> any reps for Server & Cloud bugs?
<arosales>  .
<arosales> .
<arosales> .
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> We have some smoke test failures from jenkins
<matsubara> which are being tracked as bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1427821
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1427821 in Ubuntu "server iso install fails during grub install" [Critical,Confirmed]
<matsubara> No assignee though.
<matsubara> an example of such failure: http://d-jenkins.ubuntu-ci:8080/job/vivid-server-amd64-smoke-multi-lvm/105/
<arosales> smoser: matsubara: do we need to reach out to the founations team?
<matsubara> Not sure who should fix that.
<smoser> we need to poke. i'll poke.
<smb> If it is the same as I saw it seems installer... I had a different bug report too
<smb> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/1429849
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1429849 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "server-installer: grub installed to wrong target" [Undecided,New]
<arosales> smoser: thanks for following, smb thanks for the related info.
<arosales> any othe items matsubara ?
<matsubara> looks like the same bug. I'll dupe 1427821 against that
<matsubara> arosales, that's all from me
<arosales> matsubara: thanks
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> I don't have much. Just as a kind of reminder, there have been questions/reports about bcache which are (as far as I can tell) all waiting on feedback/info from someone who can reproduce things. I cannot do much before or without as I am not sure what to look for or how to reproduce.
<arosales> smb:  I think jamespage has been looking at some bcache stuff, he is sprinting this week, but maybe able to get you some data soon-ish
<smb> ack. thanks
<arosales> smb, any other topics?
<jamespage> smb, yeah sorry - I'll ask kickinz1 to try as I think he and smoser are looking at that now
<arosales> jamespage: thanks
<jamespage> smb, they are working on reproducing the issues virtually
<smb> arosales, Nothing else. thanks
<arosales> smb: thanks
<smb> jamespage, Ok, cool. Just did not see any updates so I thought to bring it up
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> http://ocpussummit2015.sched.org/ this week. I think Mark Shuttleworth has a keynote there
<arosales> #link http://ocpussummit2015.sched.org/event/842f924b7cac2668e652715c79778ee9#.VP8dboHF8h4
<arosales> #link http://ocpussummit2015.sched.org/
<arosales> #link http://openpowerfoundation.org/2015-summit/
<arosales> OpenPOWER summit next week
<arosales> any others ?
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<arosales> Any other topics?
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<arosales> NEXT MEETING: Tuesday 2015-03-17 at 1600 UTC
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 10 16:37:51 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-10-16.04.moin.txt
<beisner> thanks arosales
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 10 17:00:19 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<bjf> o/
<smb> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased our Vivid kernel to the first upstream stable v3.19.1
<ogasawara> release and uploaded, ie. 3.19.0-8.8.  Please test and let us know your
<ogasawara> results once it's available.
<ogasawara> This is also a reminder that kernel freeze for Vivid is ~4wks away, Thurs
<ogasawara> Apr 9.  If you have any patches which need to land for 15.04's release,
<ogasawara> please make sure to submit those sooner rather than later.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Mar 26 - Final Beta (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Apr 09 - Kernel Freeze (~4 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Apr 23 - 15.04 Release (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - None (no update)
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification and Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification and Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification and Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current cycle: 27-Feb through 21-Mar
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          27-Feb   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 01-Mar - 07-Mar   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 08-Mar - 21-Mar   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<cking> oops, forgot to o/ earlier
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> cking, now we have to start all over
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 10 17:03:32 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-10-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<cking> ditto
<ppisati> o/
<ppisati> doh!
<karl1969> hello all
<karl1969> is there a channel where I can ask for help on ubuntu issues?
<elfy> karl1969: support?
<elfy> if so - join #ubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-03-12
 * mvo_ waves
<sil2100> o/
<robru> hola
 * slangasek waves
<infinity> o/
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 12 15:02:14 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<cyphermox> o/
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lighting round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lighting round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)
<slangasek> sil2100 jodh doko caribou robru bdmurray stgraber mvo barry infinity cyphermox slangasek
<sil2100> I win again?!
<sil2100> slangasek: your script is broken
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> sil2100: I published the source
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Attending meetings related to new smoketesting/testing concepts
<sil2100> - Qt 5.4.1 testing after recent fixes - OSK still broken
<sil2100> - Experimenting with the new mako ubuntu-rtm tarball * Caches still have permission problems, in the middle of resolving those
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Discussions regarding RTM milestone handling for future OTA's
<sil2100> - Resolving train spreadsheet issues
<sil2100> - Filling in MIR for qtquickcontrols-opensource-src
<sil2100> - Fighting the HR system
<sil2100> - Cleaning up milestone and landing-team tracked bugs
<sil2100> - Preparations for the April's Open Source conference
<sil2100> - Work on the ww11-ota milestone
<sil2100> (done)
<jodh> * snappy:
<jodh>   - worked on privileged operations branch (ongoing).
<jodh>   - logging investigations.
<jodh>   - investigations into systemctl "is-active" behaviour for kickin.
<jodh>   - Discussion on how to avoid future flags days.
<jodh>     (Wrote a draft document to summarise the discussions).
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   - Investigating bug 1429756 where an upstart test fails sometimes on a
<ubottu> bug 1429756 in upstart (Ubuntu Vivid) "FTBFS: test_job_process fails in majority of cases" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1429756
<jodh>     3.19 kernel (but apparently never fails under a 3.18 one).
<jodh>     Discussing with kernel team and trying to find a minimal recreator.
<jodh>   - Investigated bug 1430403 and prepared a precise SRU to fix it.
<ubottu> bug 1430403 in upstart (Ubuntu) "[SRU] ubuntu-touch livefs builds kill upstart in host" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1430403
<jodh> ðª
<slangasek> doko_: your turn
<doko_> urgh, already daylight saving time?
<doko_> I'll go last
<slangasek> yes :)
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> CarlosNeyPastorR:
<slangasek> no
<slangasek> carib
<slangasek> ok fail
<slangasek> robru: :)
<robru> * CI Train
<robru>   - refactoring continues: got test coverage up from 82% to 86%
<robru>   - new reverter tool with 100% test coverage brought up to speed with latest refactorings (old one was getting bit-rotty due to lack of tests and lack of use). shrank from 220 lines to 126 with no feature regressions
<robru>   - fixed a bug that prevented jobs from stopping when cancelled in jenkins
<robru>   - implemented a new fix to fail loudly when version number not newer than the silo version (which was only a problem for rare packages that decline the train's auto-version-mangling that would avoid this anyway)
<robru> * CI Engine
<robru>   - still floundering around with deployment issues.
<robru>   - working with francis to get that off the ground. largely blocked on him writing enough documentation for me to know what to try next.
<robru> * Landings have slown a bit with the feature freeze but still shepherding important fixes through
<robru> (done)
<bdmurray> investigation into daisy OOPS with core file submission
<bdmurray> emailed evan about too many interim responses messages in canonistack
<bdmurray> wrote cassandra database query to find crash reports w/o a package or version
<bdmurray> searched for data on quantity of crashes from -proposed users
<bdmurray> reported dkms apport hook bug LP: #1429967
<bdmurray> reported bug LP: #1430557 regarding home directory unmounting
<bdmurray> uploaded Trusty and Utopic bug fixes for dkms bug LP: #1429967
<bdmurray> recreated and documented apport bug LP: #1419061
<bdmurray> pinged pitti regarding apport bug LP: #1419061
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1429967 in dkms (Ubuntu Utopic) "dkms apport package hook doesn't write package version to apport Package key" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1429967
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1430557 in schroot (Ubuntu) "sbuild / schroot unmounted encrypted home directory" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1430557
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1419061 in ubuntukylin-default-settings (Ubuntu) "On Ubuntu Kylin detect all packages as not genuine" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1419061
<bdmurray> uploaded vivid fix for u-r-u bug LP: #1399836
<bdmurray> uploaded unattended-upgrades improved fix for bug LP: #1422345
<bdmurray> sponsored patch for trusty fix of bug LP: #44533
<bdmurray> sponsored patch for V, T fix for bug LP: #778054
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1399836 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Vivid) "RELEASE_UPRADER_NO_APPORT seems to have no effect" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1399836
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1422345 in unattended-upgrades (Debian) "stop being nice does not work" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1422345
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 44533 in mailgraph (Ubuntu) "does not work on Breezy" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/44533
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 778054 in zeitgeist (Ubuntu Trusty) "Packages shouldn't depend on the transitional package python-gobject" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/778054
<bdmurray> more patch piloting
<bdmurray> emailed ubuntu-devel regarding ease of enabling -proposed
<bdmurray> investigation into imporving MIR assignments
<bdmurray> short week due to the crud
<bdmurray> â done
<stgraber>  - LXC/LXD
<stgraber>    - Various bugfixes and feature work
<stgraber>    - Release LXD 0.3
<stgraber>    - Code reviews, bug triaging, other admin paperwork
<stgraber>    - Now working on 0.4, due Tuesday
<stgraber>    - Followed up on LXC-related MIRs
<stgraber>    - Still waiting on LXD-related FFes (archive is currently on barely usable LXD 0.1)
<stgraber>  - System image
<stgraber>    - Looked at Steve's proposal
<stgraber>    - Fixed some code styling issues in the system-image server code
<stgraber>    - Code reviews of pending branches
<stgraber> (done)
<mvo_> apt:
<mvo_> - Debug/fix/SRU auto-mark bug (thanks to infinity) in precise #1429041
<mvo_> click:
<mvo_> - Review/approve lp:~seb128/click/initctl-not-there (chroot create failure)
<mvo_> - address review comments for lp:~mvo/click/lp1358294 (remove userdata)
<mvo_> misc:
<mvo_> - performance review stuff
<mvo_> snappy:
<mvo_> - snappy-go can do all that snappy-python can (and more)!
<mvo_> - new features: native build, native unpack, oauth, native systemd support
<mvo_> - bufixes
<mvo_> - code reviews
<mvo_> - package golang-ar-dev, updated golang-pb packaging
<mvo_> - removed python2 from the snappy image
<mvo_> update-manager:
<mvo_> - Review/merge lp:~laney/update-manager/testfixes
<mvo_> (done)
<infinity> barry: ?
<barry> qa sprint ongoing
<barry> still battling ppas to get si 3.0 beta built
<barry> --done--
<infinity> - Short week due to dealing with a death in the family
<infinity> - Continued work on glibc, should be uploading soon
<infinity> - Wrangled an emergency security kernel across all releases
<infinity> - General SRU/AA work, FFEs, MIRs, etc
<infinity> - Massaged some transitions through in vivid
<infinity> - Debugged an upstart->systemd upgrade reexec issue with pitti
<slangasek> the ppas need battling?
<infinity> - Fixed livefs builds with systemd
<infinity> - Discovered and discussed bug #1429041 with mvo
<infinity> (done)
<ubottu> bug 1429041 in apt (Ubuntu Utopic) "Autoremoval not working reliably" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1429041
<cyphermox>  * updated my todo list of bugs
<cyphermox>  * more discussion with smoser about how the server install gets done
<cyphermox>  * merge netcfg to sync with debian (bugfix only) and get GCC 5 fix.
<cyphermox>  * responded to a support request by email on automating OEM installs
<cyphermox>  * started looking into bug 1066480; showing encrypted partitions in ubiquity
<ubottu> bug 1066480 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Vivid) "Installer doesn't show encrypted partitions" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066480
<cyphermox>  * Monday: sick.
<cyphermox>  * reviewed one more MP for usb-creator from Yu Ning
<cyphermox>  * help tsdgeos with wifi mac address issue on mako.
<cyphermox>  * testing/fix for bug 1427821
<ubottu> bug 1427821 in grub-installer (Ubuntu) "server iso install fails during grub install" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1427821
<cyphermox>    - this reverts bug 1354730
<ubottu> bug 1354730 in grub-installer (Ubuntu) "14.04 grub-install failed: Wrong number of args: mapdevfs <path>" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1354730
<cyphermox>  * asked kernel team to look into bug 1359689 again, now that we have 3.19.
<ubottu> bug 1359689 in linux (Ubuntu Vivid) "cryptsetup password prompt not shown" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1359689
<cyphermox>    - test mainline 3.19-rc1 vs. mainline 3.19 vs. our 3.19 with debug from ply
<cyphermox>  * complete Trusty SRUd for bugs 1386131 and 1386113.
<ubottu> bug 1386131 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Trusty) "Preseeding encrypted lvm fails instead of asking for password" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386131
<cyphermox>  * reviewing/testing installer multipath patches in bug 1430074
<ubottu> bug 1386113 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Trusty) "Preseeding encrypted lvm fails with "An error occurred while creating the keyfile"" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386113
<cyphermox> </summary>
<ubottu> bug 1430074 in partman-multipath (Ubuntu) "d-i multipath disk-partition separator overhaul" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1430074
<slangasek> sil2100: what were the train spreadsheet issues you mentioned?  I hadn't heard we were having spreadsheet problems again
<sil2100> slangasek: there were some, for unknown reasons to me the spreadsheet started overwriting cells for 2 days
<sil2100> Not even sure what was the cause, probably some out-of-sync again
<robru> sil2100: hm I never noticed that during my shifts
<sil2100> But the end result was that there were rows that had 2 changes merged
<sil2100> I had to correct like 3-4 landings, good thing I do backups every 15 minutes
<slangasek>  * reviews: if you haven't done your self review, or if you have outstanding 360 reviews, please take care of these *today*.  We need to close out the review process this week.
<sil2100> People were really puzzled why suddenly their silos have different descriptions and additional fields
<slangasek>  * hiring:
<slangasek>   * tech lead position is settled and now working on getting an engineer backfill role opened
<slangasek>   * plan to start interviewing for java role next week
<slangasek>  * worked on cleanup of the phone
<slangasek>  * discussed with bdmurray how to streamline the MIR filing process
<slangasek>  * tracked down a regression in kernels not being autoremoved in vivid due to dkms
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> any other questions on status?
<slangasek> sil2100: hmm ok
<infinity> slangasek: What was the autoremove/dkms thing?  Reintroducing my delta to drop headers deps?
<slangasek> infinity: correct
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> Anything else to discuss today?
<doko> ?
<slangasek> doko: ?
<doko> - prepare gccgo for vivid, now usable on all architectures
<doko> - build golang packages on arm64, ppc64el and powerpc
<doko> - most golang packges just did built on these architectures now.
<doko> - update gcc-4.8 packages for kernel backports
<doko> - build MPX in GCC 5, update and fix gcc-5 packages
<doko> - prepare one more openjdk-7 update
<doko> - fix build failures everywhere ...
<doko> - messed up the test rebuild archive, rebuilt stuff with the default GCC :-/
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> oh right you were going last, sorry
<slangasek> doko: thanks
<slangasek> /now/ any questions? :)
<mvo_> doko: amazing work on gccgo! if stuff (like snappy-go) does not build quite yet, whats the best approach to debug?
<doko> mvo_, I don't see it in the archive ... can't say
<sil2100> Sprint questions!
<sil2100> Any news on the sprint?
<slangasek> sil2100: so there's a bit of news on the sprint
<slangasek> the sprint is definitely the week of April 13 (week before release)
<slangasek> and it is probably /not/ in Austin
<sil2100> Oh
<robru> montreal??? ;-)
<slangasek> so we are looking at other places we can have it
<sil2100> Canada? Or maybe somewhere in Europe..? ;)
<slangasek> Montreal is on the list, I'm hoping we'll know by end of week so we can figure out visas etc
 * doko will hide in Montreal 
<cyphermox> doko does not like Montreal :P
<bdmurray> slangasek: how about honolulu?
<mvo_> or iceland
<mvo_> right in hte middle
 * bdmurray will be close already
<cyphermox> yeah, go for Groenland
<slangasek> mvo_: it's not really in the middle anymore, we have too many South Americans on the team for that ;)
<doko> no, I'm in Montreal during this time for PyCon, don't intend to attend the sprint ;)
<slangasek> I suggested the Azores
<ogra_> do a cruise ;)
<robru> why not Cancun? ;-)
<mvo_> slangasek: meh, makes sense
<slangasek> so anyway
<cyphermox> ogra_: cruise if you can get proper interwebz.
<slangasek> location still being settled, I'll let you all know ASAP
<ogra_> cyphermox, great opportunity to test our sattelite support in NM
<mvo_> haha
<cyphermox> indeed... :/
<cyphermox> there's great sattewhat support.
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 12 15:26:37 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-12-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<jodh> thanks!
<mvo_> thanks
<barry> thanks!
<sil2100> o/
<mvo_> doko: not sure if thats helpful, I get test failures like ... Panic: reflect.Value.Interface: cannot return value obtained from unexported field or method (PC=0x3FFF85DB1803) in https://launchpadlibrarian.net/200040789/buildlog_ubuntu-vivid-ppc64el.ubuntu-snappy_0.1.2-0%2B228~ubuntu15.04.1_BUILDING.txt.gz. it builds fine though. probably something in my code I will check
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-03-14
<Mirv> quick, assemble a 5 member board to have a meeting in 4 mins!
<micahg> haha
<micahg> trying to get the DMB reactivated so we can conduct business
<tyhicks`> hello
 * sbeattie wabes
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 14 16:32:47 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<sbeattie> waves, even
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Nick Bryda (futurepilot) provided debdiff for plasma-workspace for wily (LP: #1554656)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1554656 in plasma-workspace (Ubuntu) "plasma-workspace CVE-2016-2312" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1554656
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hello
<jdstrand> keep snappy interfaces going (ie, discussions and MP reviews)
<jdstrand> continue snappy policy for snappy on classic
<jdstrand> start looking at snappy developer mode
<jdstrand> I have 2 embargoed issues
<jdstrand> that's it from me, mdeslaur you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I have patch piloting tomorrow
<mdeslaur> I just published a graphite2 update
<mdeslaur> and I'm working on exim2 updates
<mdeslaur> I have a short week too, I'm off thursday afternoon and friday
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm on security bug triage this week
<sbeattie> I'm in the middle of spamming the world about kernel USNs
<sbeattie> I'm also reviewing pie test rebuild failures and preparing packages for sponsoring so that we're ready to land when 16.10 opens
<sbeattie> I also need to look at jjohansen and tyhicks apparmor stacking work
<sbeattie> I'm off next week.
<sbeattie> That'll pretty much eat my brain for this. tyhicks, you're up.
<sbeattie> s/this/this week/
<tyhicks> sbeattie: I think we may ask you to cut an upstream apparmor release tomorrow
<tyhicks> sbeattie: jj prefers a new release over me backporting the ns and stacking patches to what's currently in xenial
 * tyhicks goes
<tyhicks> I'm working on AppArmor stacking
<sbeattie> tyhicks: okay; fair warning, 2.11 will require some packaging work to handle the binutils/ directory.
<tyhicks> sbeattie: ack - thanks for the reminder
<tyhicks> I have a few more things that I want to write tests for
<tyhicks> I also have a few small parser fixups to write
<tyhicks> I still haven't gotten to my pending eCryptfs work
<tyhicks> maybe that can happen towards the end of the week
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jj isn't attending the meeting today but he's focused on AppArmor stacking
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week; it's a short week for me, I'm off monday.
<tyhicks> today?
<sarnold> I'm working on MIRs, I hope to finish the fwupd package today or tomorrow, then the golang-websocket
<sarnold> wow
<sarnold> off friday :)
<tyhicks> :)
<sarnold> though if that's how my brain's going to run today, maybe today'd be smarted. sheesh.
<sbeattie> time change makes every day feel like monday
<sarnold> lets blame day light saving
 * sarnold ^5 sbeattie
<sarnold> "smarted".
<sarnold> I'd like to help do apparmor reviews too, but we'll see.
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I'm still expecting to sponsor a Chromium update this week, and I'm also awaiting a Thunderbird update (not sure if that will happen this week)
<chrisccoulson> But no other updates planned, so I should be able to crack on with my list of convergence fixes (unless bug 1550371 ends up back with me)
<ubottu> bug 1550371 in Canonical System Image "Webbrowser slow scroll and artifact rendering on freiza" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1550371
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sssd.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/firebird2.1.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pam-pgsql.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mathopd.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/canto.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 14 16:47:31 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-03-14-16.32.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-03-15
<kickinz1> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<matsubara> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 15 16:00:02 2016 UTC.  The chair is matsubara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<matsubara> Hi there! Welcome to the server meeting!
<matsubara> who's here today?
<cpaelzer> Hi matsubara - o/
<matsubara> rharper and jgrimm-vac are off on holidays
<caribou> o/
<arges> o/
 * jgrimm-vac lurks  
<matsubara> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<matsubara> I found only two actions from last week's meeting.
<matsubara> ACTION: jgrimm to update/clean up blueprint
<matsubara> ACTION: smb to clarify if kernel team handles kerneloops package
<matsubara> I also take the opportunity to thank jgrimm-vac for running last week's meeting. It was my turn but I got disconnected by ISP
<jgrimm-vac> no worries!
<jgrimm-vac> i've made some cleanups in the blueprint, but keep it as action for me
<matsubara> Ok, thanks
<matsubara> #action: jgrimm to update/clean up blueprint
<meetingology> ACTION: : jgrimm to update/clean up blueprint
<matsubara> smb, hi there, just in time. We had an action for you from last week's meeting.
<matsubara> ACTION: smb to clarify if kernel team handles kerneloops package
<smb> matsubara, so while not clear its synced now
<matsubara> smb, great. thanks!
<matsubara> so, no more actions, let's move on
<matsubara> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<matsubara> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<matsubara> Docstring freeze this week and next week final beta freeze
<matsubara> #subtopic Release Bugs
<matsubara> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<matsubara> ok, we have a couple of bugs there in new state
<matsubara> one is high
<matsubara> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1508874
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1508874 in nova-lxd (Ubuntu Xenial) "Please disable cpu resource configuration" [High,New]
<matsubara> but that's likely to be under the openstack team turf
<matsubara> and a new one for the lxc team which has been triaged as medium: http://launchpad.net/bugs/1533833
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1533833 in lxc (Ubuntu Wily) "unprivileged lxc containers won't start, need to put sessions into "pids" cgroup controller" [Medium,New]
<matsubara> looks like everything is under control there.
<matsubara> let's move on
<matsubara> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> matsubara: nothing particular to bring up
<matsubara> thanks caribou
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> I'm working on dep8 tests for open-iscsi to avoid regressions such as https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/open-iscsi/+bug/1553017
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1553017 in open-iscsi (Ubuntu) "Unable to deploy xenial on MAAS / resolv.conf not populated" [High,Fix released]
<matsubara> other than that, nothing else to report.
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> No news for kernel I believe. Still hoping to help lamont to fix bind/dhcp otherwise
<matsubara> thanks smb
<matsubara> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<matsubara> any events that we should be aware and perhaps submit papers?
<matsubara> I guess not
<matsubara> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<matsubara> No events that I'm aware of soon
<matsubara> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<matsubara> Further discussion? anyone?
<matsubara> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<matsubara> Ok, so next meeting in the same time and same channel, next week. That will be the 22nd at 1600UTC. Chaired by the gaughen
<cpaelzer> thanks matsubara
<cpaelzer> \o
<matsubara> thank you all!
<matsubara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 15 16:17:31 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-03-15-16.00.moin.txt
<kickinz1> thanks!
<caribou> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-03-16
<lamont> go ubuntu-dev
<lamont> bah
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-03-17
<pitti> o/
<barry> \o
<tdaitx> o/
 * slangasek waves
<cyphermox> o/
<pitti> and the boss breaks the Laola wave again
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 17 15:03:12 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> pitti: you know you missed me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<xnox> bah
<slangasek> xnox: ... humbug?
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> sil2100 pitti infinity caribou cyphermox chiluk doko slangasek robru barry tdaitx xnox bdmurray
<slangasek> no sil2100 on IRC at the moment
<slangasek> pitti:
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Fix fallback handling of build profiles on trusty
<pitti>  - Fix selftest regressions
<pitti>  - britney: Fix crash when processing broken results
<pitti> distro:
<pitti>  - docker: Fix service file for self-managed cgroup hierarchies (#1546214)
<pitti>  - ecryptfs: Try to reproduce swap regression, WFM (#1447282)
<pitti>  - linux: Investigate overlayfs permission regression (#1555997)
<pitti>  - lxd: Fix autopkgtest regression
<pitti>  - merges: puppet, util-linux (to fix upgrade failure #1556539)
<pitti>  - lots of archive admin to get rid of some cruft, run process-removeals
<pitti>  - wxbanker: Update to new upstream version to work with wx 3.0 (#1544170)
<pitti>  - Debug shutdown hang, due to bind9 library regression (#1556175)
<pitti>  - Discuss cloud-init network configuration with smoser
<pitti> error-tracker vsprint since Tuesday:
<pitti>  - got the beast set up at last, documented steps and workarounds on the etherpad for now
<pitti>  - landed to small improvements, a tricky encoding fix causing crashes, and improvement of Python crash detection so far
<pitti> (done)
<infinity>  - Random SRU, AA, and release things
<infinity>  - glibc 2.23 -- currently hunting test failures in PPA
<infinity>  - linux-lts-xenial reviewed (and reviewed and reviewed) and landed
<infinity>  - Training Andy to do AA and SRU tasks
<infinity>  - tzdata updates
<infinity>  - git updates
<infinity>  - Found and fixed kernel bug blocking powerpc scalingstack
<infinity> (done)
<slangasek> infinity: test failures is build-time test failures?
<infinity> slangasek: Yes.
<bdmurray> caribou: ?
<tdaitx> cyphermox: lead the way, caribou is away now
<cyphermox>  - NetworkManager dnsmasq patch porting
<cyphermox> - debootstrap InRelease file support (bug LP: #1485511)
<cyphermox> - debugging netcfg ipv4 missing (bug LP: #1556177)
<cyphermox> - debugging oem install network setup
<cyphermox> - fighting Secure Boot Mok variables/mokutil
<cyphermox>   - uploaded dkms 2.2.0.3-2ubuntu10 and grub2 2.02~beta2-36ubuntu1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1485511 in debootstrap (Ubuntu) "ISST-KVM:CTE:R3-0:raing12: Base system install fails with "Debootstrap Error :Invalid Release signature (key id 40976EAF437D05B5) " using Ubuntu 15.10 latest daily build (20150805)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1485511
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1556177 in netcfg (Ubuntu) "After Ubuntu16.04 VM installation on brazos LPAR, Network does not come up" [Critical,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1556177
<cyphermox>  - get mokutil building on other architectures
<cyphermox> - hw-detect multipath fixes from mauricfo
<cyphermox> - investigate minimum ESP size
<cyphermox> - investigating missing daily images
<cyphermox>  - more libcxl review
<slangasek> chiluk asked to skip him
<cyphermox> - review & upload ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<cyphermox> - reviewed EFI timer patches for dannf
<cyphermox> - sponsoring os-prober fix from smb (bug LP: #1374759)
<slangasek> oh, still more text, sorry :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1374759 in os-prober (Ubuntu) ">>>WARNING<<< Wrong ufstype may corrupt your filesystem, default is ufstype=old" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1374759
<cyphermox> - updating NetworkManager to 1.2
<cyphermox> - upgrades, upgrades, upgrades
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> yeah, sorry, I paste a few lines at once only, to not get killed for flooding
<cyphermox> (and also because Cisco FWSM taught me pasting is evil)
<cyphermox> doko?
<pitti> cyphermox: do you have a rough eta for landing NM?
<pitti> we should give that a few weeks testing in devel at least
<cyphermox> not really. I'm fighting gdbus, and I think other things have priority than updating software, like fixing big bad ugly bugs.
<pitti> bdmurray?
<cyphermox> NM is my off-hours work late at night
<slangasek> doko said he would miss this meeting
<slangasek> (said he would send status by email, though I don't see it yet)
<infinity> Is he still waffling on if he's VAC or not?
<bdmurray> pitti: ? I'm last I think
<cyphermox> slangasek: you're next :)
<slangasek> cyphermox: is there an FFe for updating NM?
<pitti> bdmurray: oh sorry, read the wrong line
<slangasek> or, what's driving the update to 1.2?
<cyphermox> yes, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager-openconnect/+bug/1552424
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1552424 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "[FFE] NetworkManager 1.2-beta" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<cyphermox> ^ for all the NMs
<cyphermox> incomplete, because stuff needed porting and thus couldn't be built yet
<slangasek> infinity: he is not on vacation but he has some evening time-of-day constraints currently
<infinity> slangasek: *nod*
<infinity> Square dancing is important.
<slangasek>  * short week, due to paternity leave
<slangasek>   * feedings
<slangasek>   * changings
<slangasek>   * php7.0 transition sponsorship
<slangasek>  * lots of email catch-up
<slangasek>  * reviewing https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/germinate/+git/germinate/+merge/285180 to try to move the archive reorg story forward for 16.04
<slangasek>  * working through performance reviews for the team, to be completed this week to keep everything on schedule
<slangasek> (done)
<robru> * work on ephemeral ppas / jenkins replacement continues (mostly test-writing this week)
<robru> * error tracker sprint: got a successfull error tracker deployment in canonistack
<robru> * missed a day due to illness
<robru> (done)
<barry> pycurl 7.43.0-1, 7.43.0-1ubuntu1, zope.event 4.2.0-1, libpeas discussions in debian (debian bug #806824 w/follow up bug & blocks), pyflakes 1.1.0-1, pep8 1.7.0-2 (w/ git-dpm-ifying & bug triaging), flake8 2.5.4-2, LP: #1555723, nose2 0.6.4-1, pip 8.1.1-1
<ubottu> Debian bug 806824 in src:libpeas "libpeas: Split Python 2 and 3 support" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/806824
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1555723 in python-cryptography (Ubuntu) "pip is breaking in ppc64el" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1555723
<barry> error tracking sprint (well, trying and succeeding to repair my vpn settings, trying to and failing miserably to find my mojo).  LP: #1543350
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1543350 in Errors "Examples Table has a misleading name" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1543350
<barry> LP: #1558190
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1558190 in Ubuntu system image "config.d directory and .ini files have zero mtime" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1558190
<barry> --done--
<tdaitx> pitti: whats the etherpad for the current vsprint? was the hangouts from tuesday recorded?
<tdaitx> * TCK 8:
<tdaitx> - Improved Runtime test results from last week: only 431 failures, no errors (from 3539 failures and 883 errors)
<tdaitx> - Fixed classpath for the JCK agent
<tdaitx> - Got JCK to run on remote agent (instead of running locally, might be needed for arm64/ppc64el)
<tdaitx> - Now iterating to fix the pending failures (sound, rmi, kerberos, etc)
<tdaitx> * TCK 7:
<tdaitx> - Rerunning with a few TCK 8 fixes
<tdaitx> * Checked packages that (build) depend on OpenJDK 7 on Xenial: 4 waiting migration, 1 required merge, 1 unknown
<tdaitx> * Pending:
<tdaitx> - Complete interactive JCK tests
<tdaitx> - Test JCK on i386 after runtime is OK for AMD64
<tdaitx> (done)
<pitti> tdaitx: http://pad.ubuntu.com/errorttracker-sprint
<bdmurray> tdaitx: not recorded
<xnox> me?
<xnox> Fix fuse failing to upgrade in lxd
<xnox> Fixes to s390-tools, libseccomp
<xnox> Deployed openstack in juju2/lxd, filed loads of bugs
<xnox> Apperantly I used a little of electricity whilst doing above
<xnox> Ported spl/zfs to z
<xnox> Worked with apw on failing to load in-kernel 509 certs
<xnox> Preparing for Beta
<xnox> Off next week - skiing on Avoriaz / Portes du Soleil and there is bank holiday, so back on 29th
<xnox> done.
<xnox> s/on/in/
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding rescuing arm64 core files
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding updating PS4.5 retracers to daisy r693
<bdmurray> submitted RT re PS4.5 OOPSes not showing up at oops.canonical.com
<bdmurray> submitted LP: #1556248 re DistUpgradeQuirk for fglrx and 16.04
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1556248 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "dist upgrade quirk needed for fglrx and 16.04" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1556248
<bdmurray> testing error tracker setup for the sprint
<bdmurray> fixed extract-changelogs project in Launchpad
<bdmurray> pushed changelog extractor code to an LP core-dev branch
<bdmurray> properly set bzr branch for changelog extractor on bignay
<bdmurray> final prep for Error Tracker sprint
<bdmurray> Error Tracker sprint!
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> xnox: your search and replace could apply to done
<xnox> bdmurray, =)
<slangasek> xnox: "a little electricity"? did IS send you a bill for the DC?
<bdmurray> where'd that meeting leader go?
<slangasek> ok, any other questions?
<slangasek> bdmurray: single threaded blocked waiting to hear about electric bills
<xnox> slangasek, i was told i was using 80% of electric for a week or so.
<slangasek> blink
<xnox> slangasek, openstack crashed, and kept crashing =)
<slangasek> well then
<xnox> lxd is good to provide load =)
<xnox> i surprised it all kept going to be honest.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Schprint
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Schprint
<slangasek> we have a core sprint scheduled in June :)
<xnox> ÏÏÎ­ÏÏ ?
<slangasek> you should have all received email telling you to book travel
<slangasek> xnox: nice
<robru> yay!
<cyphermox> xnox: wha? tpexw?
<slangasek> so, please book your travel :)
<infinity> cyphermox: That's Greek for ":)))))"
<infinity> Or =)))))
<infinity> Yes, that one.
<cyphermox> yeah, that one
<pitti> done
<xnox> =)))))
 * infinity is waiting for xnox to go on an IRC diet and drop some of those chins.
<slangasek> ÏÎ·Î³Î¿ÏÎ½Î¹Î±
<slangasek> not to be confused with begonia
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<slangasek> xnox: at least we didn't decide that holding it in Greece means it needs to be a marathon instead of a sprint
<xnox> infinity, actually i have lost 5kg since new years.
<bdmurray> slangasek: slashd emailed the SRU team about an openipmi SRU that nobody has comment on. Maybe some SRU team member here could?
<xnox> slangasek, awwww
<slangasek> bdmurray: it's currently in my backlog, fwiw; I noticed he mentioned it was a private bug, so not a proper SRU bug...
<infinity> xnox: Your emoticon hasn't.
<bdmurray> slangasek: there is a corresponding public one
<slangasek> ah ok
<bdmurray> bug 1546735
<ubottu> bug 1546735 in openipmi (Ubuntu) "openipmi package compile without SSL" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1546735
<slangasek> bdmurray: pretty sure the short answer is going to be "no", anyway
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay
<infinity> The answer was already no.
<infinity> 16 days ago.
<slangasek> infinity: oh, did someone already nack this once? ok
<infinity> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openipmi/+bug/1546735/comments/4
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1546735 in openipmi (Ubuntu) "openipmi package compile without SSL" [Undecided,Fix released]
<bdmurray> "is probably unsuitable" doesn't sound like no to me
<infinity> well, it also came with him denying the SRU tasks.
<slashd> infinity, slangasek, bmurray, after this comment, RAOF suggest to filed the private bug with compelling argument
<infinity> Is the compelling argument "someone's paying us"?
<slangasek> slashd: well, the arguments need to be made in public
<infinity> ie: why is this private?
<slangasek> any argument that can't be made in public is not compelling for an SRU, as infinity's question suggests
<slashd> it is private, because I wanted to hide the UA customer from the public bug
<slashd> UA customer identity
<infinity> So, that becomes more interesting, certainly.
<slangasek> the SRU team probably doesn't need to know that at all, but the justification for the SRU does need to be public
<infinity> But "I pay for a support contract" doesn't get you carte blanche to dictate the distro either.
<infinity> If it did, we'd never get anything done.
<infinity> So, yeah.  We need reasonable technical arguments and test plans to prove nothing regresses, yada yada.
<ogra_> but we would be immensely rich !
<slangasek> anyway, seems like something we can follow up on via the bug
<slangasek> bug(s)
<slangasek> anything else?
<xnox> ogra_, i don't think so. mark would be rich, maybe, or like break even.
<slashd> infinity, slangasek, bmurray thanks for your feedbacks on this bug
<slashd> much appreciated
<xnox> huh.
<xnox> slangasek, infinity - why would we not backport something from xenial to trusty?
<xnox> slashd, there is commercial product listed in the original bug report as it is.
<infinity> xnox: Because it's a stable release?
<xnox> slashd, upgrade to xenial is the answer? =)
<bdmurray> xnox: the debian bug report has a good test case w/o a commercial product iirc
<bdmurray> "solterm is basically useless" seemed like something worth fixing to me
<infinity> Not disagreeing, but the SRU bug is more than lacking the usual justification and test bits.
<slangasek> ok - further discussion to the bug, then?
 * infinity nods.
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 17 15:46:25 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-03-17-15.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<barry> thanks!
<pitti> thanks all
<cyphermox> thanks!
<caribou> crap, got hit by the tz change again :-/
 * belkinsa had a feeling that someone did
<belkinsa> #startmeeting CC meeting Check-In with IRC Council 17:00UTC - Canonical Community Team 17:30UTC
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 17 17:00:03 2016 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC meeting Check-In with IRC Council 17:00UTC - Canonical Community Team 17:30UTC | Current topic:
<belkinsa> Who is all here for the meeting?
<belkinsa> #chair mhall119 dholbach
<meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa dholbach mhall119
<belkinsa> Anyone?
<mhall119> o/
<sgclark> here
<mhall119> do we have anyone from the IRC council here?
<belkinsa> #chair sgclark
<meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa dholbach mhall119 sgclark
<belkinsa> mhall119, I pinged them on their channel but no one has answered my call.
<belkinsa> I also heard nothing from Canonical Community Team too.
<mhall119> it looks like they're down to just 3 members after expirations
<czajkowski> aloha
<mhall119> hggdh: are you around?
<belkinsa> Well, dpm thanked me.
<belkinsa> #chair czajkowski
<meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa czajkowski dholbach mhall119 sgclark
<dpm> belkinsa, it's in our calendar and we'll be attending
 * belkinsa has a feeling that her e-mail to the IRC Council didn't go through
<belkinsa> dpm, I'm aware of that.
<dpm> I didn't realise you wanted explicit confirmation, apologies
<belkinsa> Maybe we could start with Canonical Community Team since you guys are here?
<mhall119> IIRC, hggdh has setup a poll for voting on new IRCC members
<belkinsa> dpm, not really.
<dholbach> sorry I'm late
<belkinsa> #chair dholbach
<meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa czajkowski dholbach mhall119 sgclark
<belkinsa> It's cool.
<belkinsa> #chair hggdh
<meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa czajkowski dholbach hggdh mhall119 sgclark
<dholbach> ok... shall we start with the Community team then? or mhall119: did you want to talk with just hggdh about IRC things now?
<mhall119> so it doesn't seem we have any current IRCC members here, nor hggdh, so let's move on to the community team for now
<belkinsa> Let's give a few more minutes to see if someone from IRC Council comes.
<dholbach> ok
<belkinsa> Alright.
<belkinsa> #subtopic Canonical Community Team
<mhall119> dholbach: hggdh doesn't seem to be around atm (he'll have lots of nick highlights when he get back now :) )
<belkinsa> What are your updates?
<mhall119> are we starting with the Community Team now?
<belkinsa> Yes.
<mhall119> dpm: popey: davidcalle: balloons: our turn
 * mhall119 trades hats
<davidcalle> o/
<davidcalle> Hi everyone
<mhall119> ok, so we have a few topics we wanted to talk to the CC about
<belkinsa> o/ davidcalle
<belkinsa> mhall119, the mic's yours.
<mhall119> #1 We want to focus more on LoCo Teams than we have in the recent past, and we really need active help from the LoCo Council on this
<mhall119> things like planning global jams and promoting release parties are things that, in our view, the LC can be taking a lead on, rather than us
<popey> sorry, am on a hangout
<dholbach> I generally like the idea... what kind of things would the LC do then?
<hggdh> I am now in, had a conflicting meeting
<mhall119> in my mind, they would handle the regular events like Global Jam, Release Parties, etc. Setup the event in LTP every cycle, contact loco teams to encourage them to participate, promote loco activities when they do participate, etc
<mhall119> we've also got a global Meetup.com account now that loco teams can use, and the LC has been given the authority to grant access to that for teams, so we would like to see that promoted among them
<dholbach> maybe we could start collecting ideas among all LoCo teams and start discussing them at UOS, so we could see which of them are doable - maybe the LC could then help tracking this?
<dholbach> maybe there could be some LTP <-> meetup integration as well
<belkinsa> +1
<mhall119> so, to bring it back to action items, is the CC generally in favor of the LC becoming more proactive in growing the LoCo community, and will you help us encourage them to do so?
<belkinsa> We can do this.
<dholbach> one approach to this could be to have a conversation with the LC and see if we can update their charter together
<mhall119> +1
<belkinsa> +1
<dpm> o/
<dholbach> and review the current expectations
<dpm> sorry, had to go afk
<mhall119> is that charter somewhere online that prospective new LC members can see?
<czajkowski> mhall119: so one thing I think would benfit some locos who've had it hard is to ope up meetup to them for new blood
<sgclark> not sure who is asking form whom here, but seems to be a good plan forward to me. +1
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil could be a good start
<mhall119> czajkowski: yup, and we have that option now, we just need to get the news out to those teams
<mhall119> sgclark: I'm asking on behalf of the canonical team
<belkinsa> Oh.  I was lost too.
<mhall119> sorry, many hats gets confusing :)
<dholbach> it's a bit confusing as mhall119 and myself are both on the CC and the Canonical Community team :)
<belkinsa> It's cool.
<sgclark> ok
<mhall119_canonic> there we go :)
<dholbach> nice one
<dpm> yes, I also feel the LC focusing more on these activities might also be more rewarding work for them than doing team verifications
<mhall119_canonic> only it truncated it
<czajkowski> mhall119_canonic: fantastic news
<dholbach> dpm, and it would probably make it easier to get others involved who are willing to help
<mhall119_canonic> in that case I will take an action item to arrange a call between the canonical community team and the LC
<dholbach> mhall119_cct, maybe see if some CC members are interested too
<dholbach> all won't be able to make it anyway
<mhall119_cct> ack, I will email the LC and CC lists together
<dholbach> but it might be good to look at the charter and the general list of ideas together and see what's doable and what might be too much
<dpm> I sent an e-mail with the instructions to manage the global meetup account and add new teams to the LC in private (it included password info) a while ago, but I can put that on the wiki or somewhere else too if it makes more sense
<mhall119_cct> #action mhall119 to schedule meeting between the Canonical Community Team and LoCo Council, with Community Council invited if desired
<meetingology> ACTION: mhall119 to schedule meeting between the Canonical Community Team and LoCo Council, with Community Council invited if desired
<dholbach> dpm, do you feel there was a bottleneck in getting the meetup accounts set up?
<mhall119_cct> well, the meetup.com interface and process was....not fantastic
<dpm> mhall119_cct, totally agreed
<dholbach> ok, if that helps - sure
<mhall119_cct> but I think with documentation and the LC's help, there's nothing preventing teams from signing up
<dpm> dholbach, it's a bit cumbersome, but just another mechanical process, not intuitive, but easy to grasp once you've done it a couple of times
<dholbach> ok
<mhall119_cct> ok, we need to move on to our other topics if the IRCC is going to have any time this hour
<mhall119_cct> dpm: did you want to talk about the doc team?
<dholbach> sure
 * mhall119_CC changes hats again
<dpm> sure
<dpm> I have mostly a short update
<dpm> we proposed some dates for a meeting
<dpm> and looking at doodle, it's most likely to be next Thursday
<dholbach> background for this is https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2016-March/001104.html (for those who are not on the community team list)
<dholbach> just to give some context
<dpm> as it's the date all interested participants so far seem to be available
<dpm> thanks Daniel
<mhall119_CC> for context, this is about the docs team's request to find someone to step to into a leadership role to help them made decisions
<mhall119_CC> heh, dholbach beat me to it
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> I think having a meeting together is going to be a good start
<mhall119_CC> +1
<hggdh> +1
<dpm> we'd be happy to help, and we have some suggestions, but we'd like to better understand their needs from the team first-hand to see where we can contribute
<dpm> rather than coming up with a grand plan upfront
<hggdh> I think this is a sane approach
<dholbach> thanks a lot for looking into this
<dholbach> are these all of the topic you wanted to bring up?
<mhall119_CC> nope, one more
<mhall119_CCT> more of an update really
<dholbach> because I think it'd be nice if you could give an update of what the Canonical Community team is currently looking at, at least what the big blocks are and what's coming up in the future
<mhall119_CCT> so the wiki had been the target of spam starting a couple months ago
<dholbach> and if we don't have enough time, we should probably make some - even if we schedule another meeting
<dholbach> ok
<mhall119_CCT> and as a result IS locked it down so it oculdn't be edited
<dpm> sounds good, I can do that after mhall119_CCT's update
<mhall119_CCT> same with help.ubtunu.com/community
<dholbach> thanks dpm
<popey> mhall119_CCT: fyi, you're spamming every channel you're in with these nick changes
<mhall119_CCT> the docs team asked for help unblocking them on this
<popey> just put CC: or CCT: in front of your text
<mhall119_CCT> ok
<mhall119_CCT> so after a few failed attempts to get the wikis back to normal editing mode, we ultimately ended up with a solution where edit access is restricted only to a specific Launchpad team
<popey> We also discovered two more wikis which were spammed
<popey> ubuntu-women and upstart
<mhall119_CCT> ~ubuntu-etherpad was chosed because (A) it's already used for spam-control on the etherpad, (2) so many people are already a member of it and (3) we've been good at quickly adding new members when they request is
<dholbach> do you still know where this was announced?
<mhall119_CCT> so IS had made the changes to wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community to implement this change,and it seems to be working for the most part (login is still slow)
<popey> dholbach: announcing anti-spam methods tends towards spammers working around them.
<mhall119_CCT> popey: are those wikis changed to use ~ubuntu-etherpad now, or are they still open?
<popey> mhall119_CCT: they are now
<mhall119_CCT> we let the docs team know about the change, and I believe they've been letting others know when needed
<dholbach> popey, right... I just started thinking about how many people we might probably lock out
<popey> well, u-w is, i think upstart was just frozen initially given nobody really needed to edit it
<dpm> just a minor detail, but would it make sense to rename ~ubuntu-etherpad to something more generic?
<popey> not if the long term goal is to replace the wiki
<mhall119_CCT> it might make sense, but it would require some investigation into the impact a rename would have
<mhall119_CCT> and, as popey said, this isn't hte long term fix, we still need to do something else
<sgclark> yes
<popey> this was just a short term fix to ensure people could get on and use the wiki as it was designed
<mhall119_CCT> but, I wanted to give the CC and update on the status of that, as it was brought up in the checkin with the docs team
<dholbach> do we know IS' stance on a long term plan?
<popey> we don't have a plan yet :)
<mhall119_CCT> no, I think pleia emailed them asking about some options, but I don't think she's heard  back yet
<mhall119_CCT> ok, that's all I had
<mhall119> last nick change, I promise popey :)
<popey> :)
 * mhall119 forgets not everybody has those messages hidden by their IRC client
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> I think using u-etherpad was a good idea and it's probably not many who are locked out of the wiki today
<popey> we have had people drop by #is and ask why they can't edit
<popey> but not many people
<popey> and we fixed it promptly by telling them what team to join
<dholbach> <3
<mhall119> there were also some cases where people's accounts were flagged as spammers during the incidents, and IS had to do something extra to allow them to edit again, but it wasn't many that I've seen
<popey> Also, note that -etherpad team contains others which makes the impact lower
<dpm> ok, if it hadn't been obvious enough, I think we need to pull all the threads together and come up with a plan
<popey> so if you're in ~ubuntumembers you're already good
<mhall119> or locoteams
<mhall119> or, several other temas
<popey> more people have been inconvenienced by the "logout/login / refresh / refresh" dance in my opinion
<mhall119> yay cache
<jose> just a heads up, I sent an email to elmo several days ago to ask about some wiki stuff, and the plan I had to try and migrate it to mediawiki or something else is still running
 * jose hides again
<popey> we should co-ordinate that jose
<dpm> jose, it might be worth putting the plan (ironically) in the wiki
<mhall119> the long term plan is also going to  be dependent on getting a leader on the docs team to make final decisions around it
<dpm> hm
<jose> hehe, sure. I wanted to work on a timeline but until we don't get that reply back from elmo we're basically locked
<dpm> I wouldn't say it's the whole responsibility of the docs team
<mhall119> because right now the docs team can't come to an agreement on what to move to
<dpm> sorry, *sole
<mhall119> dpm: no, but for help.ubuntu.com/community at least it's primarily them
<dholbach> is there a mailing list where we could involve more IS people?
<dpm> I agree, but that's a subsection of the wiki
<dholbach> I'm sure some of them will have looked at other wikis
<mhall119> I think it's a completely separate wiki, actually
<dholbach> looks like moin's last release was in 2014
<dpm> mhall119, ah, that might well be
<mhall119> ok, any other topics from or for the canonical community team?
<dpm> ok, what action do we take from that topic?
<popey> * Poke IS
<popey> * Come up with a high level plan
<popey> * Make sure community people aren't blocked from editing current wiki ?
<mhall119> I think the meeting with the docs team is a good next step
<dholbach> I was expecting some "??? PROFIT" in there, but yeah - sounds like a good plan
<sgclark> Docs team and IS I think are top priority
<dpm> but I think we need to start working on the plan regardless
<dpm> I think growing leadership will be something that we can fix, but it will be a matter of weeks/months
<popey> dholbach: I prefer  ð  ð  ð  PARTY!
<dpm> :-)
<dholbach> :-)
<mhall119> is there a doc anywhere listing the various options and their pros/cons?
<dpm> I'm happy to start pulling the threads together and work with jose, IS and other folks who have looked at this before and document it
<sgclark> probably should be, there are about 100+ threads on the subject scattered about
<mhall119> +1
<dholbach> awesome
<popey> yay, thanks dpm
<mhall119> #action dpm to pull the various discussion threads about the long-term wiki fix into one place
<meetingology> ACTION: dpm to pull the various discussion threads about the long-term wiki fix into one place
<dpm> ok
<mhall119> \o/ action items!
<dholbach> great, thanks a lot
<dpm> I've got a topic I didn't add to the agenda, but just been reminded about it from jose. Shall I go for it, or is there anything else someone wants to talk about before?
 * mhall119 is done 
<dholbach> feel free
<dpm> ok
<dpm> so just an update that thanks to the good work jose has been doing, Ubuntu will have a booth at OSCON
<mhall119> woohoo!
<dholbach> nice one
<popey> oooh
<dpm> related to that, the community leadership summit
<popey> ð
<mhall119> reminder: OSCON is in Austin Tx this year, not Portland Or
<sgclark> boooo
<dpm> :-)
<mhall119> evidently Portland was too hot :)
<sgclark> lol wut?!
<hggdh> so, IRCC still in?
<dpm> I've talked to some of you before, but I've been looking to send most of the community team to the event this year, and I think we should have funds in the community donations to sponsor interested members of the CC
<mhall119> sgclark: oh right, you were in Europe I think, there was a heatwave during CLS/OSCON, it was actually hotter there than in Florida
<sgclark> oh ouch.
<dpm> I'll follow up with an e-mail to the CC with the details, but that's the gist of it
<dholbach> very nice :-)
<dpm> sorry, to clarify "to send most of the *Canonical* community team this year", as last year it was mhall119 and I
<popey> Yeeeee-hawwwwww!
<sgclark> ok thank you
<sgclark> have fun :)
<mhall119> sgclark: can you not make it?
<sgclark> I am poor :)
<hggdh> alright. An update on the IRCC: elections were planned for after end of Feb; Flannel requested to run them (I was originally going to)
<mhall119> sgclark: that's what community donations fund is for :)
<popey> "we should have funds in the community donations to sponsor interested members of the CC"
<popey> thats you sgclark :)
<mhall119> #topic IRC Council Checking
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC meeting Check-In with IRC Council 17:00UTC - Canonical Community Team 17:30UTC | Current topic: IRC Council Checking
<dholbach> dpm, do you (or anyone else from the Canonical Community team) still have a quick update on what the current big blocks and what the upcoming big blocks are going to be? :)
<dpm> I can have a go at it
<dholbach> I think that'd be nice for folks reading the log afterwards
<mhall119> hggdh: has the poll been created and sent out?
<dholbach> because that's what's usually part of our catchups :)
<dax> mhall119: nope, current plan is on/before this Saturday, I believe
<hggdh> mhall119: no. Flannel told us he has been buried, and that he should be setting Condorcet this weekend
<mhall119> is it the full council up for election, or just some open seats (and if so, how many?)
<hggdh> there are 3 open slots: Pici, Tm_T, and myself are ending our run.
<dpm> The Canonical community team will start laying out the next cycle in the next few weeks, also to align with what other Canonical Ubuntu teams are working on, so while this is not set in stone, I'm thinking of these big blocks for the team to focus on next cycle:
<dpm> - UbuCons and LoCo teams
<dpm> - Snappy developer growth
<Pici> (I'm slightly here, going into another work meeting in 5 minutes)
<dpm> - Unity8/convergence outreach
<hggdh> offifially Tm_T and myself has already have our memberships in the IRCC team expired
<dholbach> hggdh, should we extend the term lenghts by a few weeks to make the transition smoother?
<hggdh> dholbach: I think it would make sense. I did that for us once, and so did Pici. But now I am expired, and cannot change it anymore
<dpm> and of course we'll continue working on phone app/scope development outreach, but as more and more of the different technologies are starting to converge (pun intended), all these threads will be coming together
<dholbach> I'll do it
<dholbach> done - that should give you enough room to organise things now
<hggdh> on other news: the IRCC has have a series of ops candidates to review and ack/nak.
<dholbach> dpm, thanks a lot for the update
<hggdh> no results have been posted out yet.
<dholbach> if nobody has any other questions for the Canonical Community team, I think we can let them go now - sorry for the somewhat confused meeting and waiting time today.
<sgclark> none here
<dholbach> hggdh, is this part of a regular check or did this have any other reasons?
 * mhall119 has nothing more
<elky> we were scheduled for a checkin if that's what you're asking
<dax> elky: i think he means the ops appt thing
<hggdh> dholbach: I am not sure this would be a regular check; I am just writing out what I had
<dholbach> ah ok... now I understand - thanks hggdh
<mhall119> welcome elky :)
<elky> we hi
<elky> hi
<dholbach> I thought this was something like ops' membership expiring which triggered a review
<dholbach> but this is actually for new ops, right?
<dholbach> hi elky
<dpm> ok, thanks everyone!
 * dpm calls it a day today
<Pici> yep, new ops
<elky> yes we are reviewing the backlog of "can i be an op" requests from launchpad.
<dholbach> thanks dpm, popey, davidcalle, mhall119 and balloons :)
<dholbach> ok, got it
<dholbach> how are thing apart from that in IRC land? :)
<davidcalle> Thanks all :)
<dpm> o/
<elky> quiet mostly which is nice.
<dholbach> that sounds good :)
<popey> Now everyone moved to Slack ã
<dholbach> haha
<mhall119> thanks dholbach too :)
<dholbach> and the new ops have all been contributing for a while, so they're known faces?
<elky> biggest drama is probably the bit where we had to set registration restrictions on offtopic to stop an inappropriate user
<elky> other than that it's been quiet and calm
<mhall119> that's good to hear
<mhall119> other than the council elections, is there anything the Community Council can do to assist you?
<hggdh> the candidates list has the usual mix of long-term users, new users, and power-seeking ones
<dholbach> I really like how professional things are, like channels for upcoming events like UOS or the release party or whatever - it all works and things are just seamless
<dholbach> so big thanks for all that
<dholbach> ah... one question I always have: did you approve some new "ubuntu irc members" recently?
<dholbach> or are new contributors encouraged to apply for membership at all?
<Pici> They are encouraged, but we haven't had anyone new lately.
<dholbach> ok
<Pici> (also no one showed up to my work meeting, so here I am)
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> and how's the atmosphere among the ops and helpers generally? are things quiet and relaxed there too?
<IdleOne> it's us against them
<IdleOne> according to them
<dholbach> who against whom?
<dholbach> and why?
<Pici> We had once... incident... recently, (and by recently I mean the last few days), so we're still working on triage and cleanup from that.
<IdleOne> dholbach: the "good" users never see us
<Pici> But otherwise things have been quiet (imo)
<IdleOne> the other users they fight
<dholbach> I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand
<dholbach> who feels they fight whom and why?
<IdleOne> dholbach: the atmosphere is good except for the few problem users.
<IdleOne> I should have been more clear, sorry :)
<elky> he's saying that the users who we interact with with ops hats are usually people who misbehave.
<dholbach> ok... and they are the regular trolls in high-volume channels or somebody else?
<elky> the users who behave well don't even know we exist for the most part
<dholbach> ah ok, now it makes more sense :)
<dholbach> *phew*
<dholbach> ok... do you have any big things still on your TODO list?
<dholbach> or stuff which still needs to be decided?
<elky> other than those things already discussed, nope
<elky> at least not that i've been made aware of
<Pici> ditto
<hggdh> +1
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> that all sounds good - thanks a lot everyone for your hard work
<dholbach> sgclark, mhall119, belkinsa, czajkowski: did you have any more questions?
<sgclark> not I
<dholbach> or hggdh (with some head swapping)? :)
<dholbach> sorry, HAT swapping
<hggdh> heh
<hggdh> no, I am good
 * sgclark giggles
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> in that case: thanks a lot everyone for coming
<sgclark> thanks everyone
<dholbach> and thanks everyone for making Ubuntu a better place :)
<IdleOne> thank you.
<dholbach> we're slightly over time already, but does anyone have any other business they urgently wanted to bring up?
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC meeting Check-In with IRC Council 17:00UTC - Canonical Community Team 17:30UTC | Current topic: Any other business
<dholbach> (and thanks for the bots!)
<Pici> :)
<dholbach> All rightie... looks like we're all done!
<dholbach> thanks everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 17 18:17:02 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-03-17-17.00.moin.txt
<hggdh> dholbach: thankk you
<IdleOne> dholbach: BTW, none of the ops team has received a pay check in 9 YEARS!
<Kilos> does anyone here know how to contact ruben romero of spreadubuntu please
<IdleOne> heh :P
<mhall119> sorry, had to step away, thanks everyone
<hggdh> Kilos: probably Canonical would know
<Kilos> ty hggdh ill try rope in belkinsa to ask them
<hggdh> Kilos: if you go to the #canonical-sysadmin and explain there what you want they may be able to help
<Kilos> oh ty ill do that
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-03-13
<slashd> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> o/
<ddstreet> o/
<micahg> o/
<sil2100> We need one more for quorum
<sil2100> Who's turn is it for chairing? Is the agenda up-to-date with that?
<rbasak> The chair rotation doesn't really work at all since some DMB members rarely manage to make a meeting.
<rbasak> I'm supposed to be on vacation this week though, so I'd appreciate if somebody else could take care of chairing/actions.
<micahg> I have a meeting at 15:30, so unless we want to race through the meeting, I can't do it
<micahg> sil2100: ?
<sil2100> Let's see if anyone else will appear, I can chair if needed but I already chaired a few times as a substitute
<sil2100> Not a big thing though
<sil2100> Still, I'd appreciate if we'd have quorum
 * micahg wonders what happened with the election
<rbasak> I thought we had an action for that. Did it not get carried forward?
<sil2100> I don't think the agenda got properly updated
<micahg> I didn't see a call for nomincations
<sil2100> I saw something in the meeting logs, but not on the agenda
<micahg> s/nomications/nominations/
<sil2100> ACTION: bdmurray to sort out votes and related items in respect of the two upcoming expiring DMB memberships (rbasak, 20:41)
<sil2100> This was from the last meeting, but not present on the agenda
<sil2100> Ok, I'll chair today and try to get it up to date after the meeting
<rbasak> Thanks!
<sil2100> We need one more member for quorum though - should we start without 4 people now anyway?
<rbasak> I'm getting pretty fed up with this tbh.
<rbasak> IMHO, the DMB members who repeatedly can't make it either need to sort out changing the meeting times, or step down and be replaced.
<sil2100> Yeah, I'm a bit annoyed too, although I must admit that I had some missed meetings myself
<rbasak> Trying to work around it by having a non-quorate meeting and then catching up on the ML doesn't seem to work effectively either. Whichever way applications get dragged out for far too long.
<sil2100> Let's start, maybe people will appear during the meeting, since if micahg will be away in 20 minutes than it's good if we get his votes at least
<micahg> I'll still be here, just a little distracted ;)
<sil2100> Ah, ok
<rbasak> And it creates work for those who *do* make it.
<rbasak> So IMHO, we should just not have a non-quorate meeting and instead spend that time larting those who don't show up and fix the problem properly in whatever form that needs to take.
<bdmurray> I'm hear but may need to leave suddenly.
<sil2100> \o/
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 13 15:12:24 2017 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> Ok, checking previous action items from the logs
<bdmurray> my item is not done
<bdmurray> Do I need to contact the whole TB or just a member regarding the extension?
<sil2100> Has the addition of rosco2 to the contributing developer team been made and announced?
<jbicha> one more unfinished item (not on the agenda) is handling fossfreedom's application for upload rights for budgie pkgs
<sil2100> jbicha: ok, we'll discuss that during AOB, since I guess this one was very tricky
<micahg> wasn't fossfreedom supposed to come back with endorsements after a period of time
<sil2100> I think it was hard since he was applying for a non-existing packageset too
<sil2100> Since the packageset wasn't created yet
<sil2100> Anyway, we'll get back to it
<micahg> ok
<sil2100> rbasak: did you add and announce Rosco2?
<sil2100> I see that was set for you
<rbasak> I don't recall.
<sil2100> ACTION: rbasak to add Rosco2 to the contributing developer team (rbasak, 19:32)
 * rbasak works off the agenda page
<sil2100> ACTION: rbasak to announce Rosco2's new contributing developer team membership (rbasak, 19:32)
<sil2100> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-02-27-19.15.html
<rbasak> OK give those actions to me again please.
<sil2100> Ok
<sil2100> #action rbasak to add Rosco2 to the contributing developer team (carried-over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add Rosco2 to the contributing developer team (carried-over)
<sil2100> #action rbasak to announce Rosco2's new contributing developer team membership (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to announce Rosco2's new contributing developer team membership (carried over)
<sil2100> bdmurray: as for your thing, I think DMB memberships are handled by the DMB, right?
<rbasak> Thanks! Sorry, I checked only the agenda page earlier today, and assumed I had no actions.
<micahg> DMB memberships are handled by the TB
<sil2100> I'll fix that up today
<sil2100> micahg: ah, hm, ok
<micahg> oh, membership in DMB owned teams, yeah, we can do those
<micahg> I thought you meant actually DMB team membership
<sil2100> It's about DMB membership extension
<micahg> yeah, TB then
<sil2100> ACTION: bdmurray to sort out votes and related items in respect of the two upcoming expiring DMB memberships (rbasak, 20:41)
<sil2100> micahg: do you know if one TB member is enough?
<sil2100> Or does it have to involve a vote?
<micahg> in the past 1 person has just done it I think
<bdmurray> I'll start with one then.
<sil2100> micahg: thanks!
<sil2100> bdmurray: ok, I'll carry it over then as well
<sil2100> #action bdmurray to sort out votes and related items in respect of the two upcoming expiring DMB memberships (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to sort out votes and related items in respect of the two upcoming expiring DMB memberships (carried over)
<sil2100> ACTION: rbasak to sort out the SRU uploaders team (rbasak, 20:41)
<sil2100> rbasak: that's done I think? ^
<rbasak> I think so. I deferred actually creating the team in Launchpad until we had one member.
<sil2100> Makes sense, we might have one today!
<rbasak> I did announce it.
<rbasak> (and invite applications)
<rbasak> Yes :)
<sil2100> Ok, so one action item finished, woot!
<sil2100> There are also two other action items from cyphermox regarding chiluk's application - I added him to the team and announced in cyphermox's stead
<sil2100> Since he was busy
<sil2100> So this is done as well
<sil2100> Ok, let's move on
<sil2100> #topic Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
<sil2100> #subtopic Dan Streetman (ddstreet)
<ddstreet> o/
<sil2100> ddstreet: please introduce yourself o/
<ddstreet> hi guys, I'm Dan
<ddstreet> I'm applying for contributing developer
<ddstreet> my application page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ddstreet/UbuntuContributingDeveloperApplication
<sil2100> Any questions?
<rbasak> I reviewed ddstreet's application when he asked me to endorse him. I have no questions.
<cyphermox> no questions
<micahg> I have a question
<micahg> what happened this cycle
<ddstreet> what do you mean?
<ddstreet> or is that q not for me?
<micahg> I see uploads through the end of yakkety
<ddstreet> ah ok
<ddstreet> a lot of the work i do is in the kernel
<ddstreet> so, for the last several months i've been doing kernel work
<ddstreet> and haven't had any userspace package uploads
<micahg> is there a reason there's no endorseement from kernel devs?
<ddstreet> oversight by me...i can ask them
<ddstreet> i thought the endorsements needed to be from userspace pkg uploaders
<micahg> any around that can vouch in IRC for you?
<rbasak> userspace pkg uploaders> I think any and all Ubuntu development work qualifies :)
<micahg> well, contributing dev is a little different, it's overall dev effort that is reflected in the archive (and I assume your work makes it in eventually)
<ddstreet> sure kamal probably can
<sil2100> Not sure if he's around yet though
<sil2100> (it's around 8:30 am at his place I think)
<micahg> I'm seeing if I can see what I want to see in LP
 * bdmurray place too
<sil2100> micahg: ok, give me a sign once your doubts are cleared
<micahg> ddstreet: are those private repos?
<ddstreet> are which private repos?
<ddstreet> my lp git repos?
<micahg> the kernel work
<micahg> yeah
<ddstreet> those are for customer kernel bugs i've worked
<micahg> oh, sorry, I think I see it now
<rbasak> While he's doing that, I have a policy question. I consider ddstreet's work "significant and sustained" as it was in October 2016 - sustained until then. So I was a +1 on that basis, regardless of whether he's "sustained" since or not.
<rbasak> If an applicant reached "signifiant and sustained" in the past in our view, but applies after further contributions are no longer "sustained", should that still be a +1. I had assumed yes, but I'm curious what others think.
<micahg> ok, I think I'm good, I assume this work was merged in
<micahg> or most of it at least
<micahg> sil2100: I'm good
<rbasak> I guess my question is moot then. Feel free to skip it and move on :)
<sil2100> rbasak: I personally like to think sustained means 'sustained and still continuing', but in this case it doesn't only mean archive uploads
<micahg> yeah, I agree with sil2100
<sil2100> So it's good
<sil2100> Ok then, let's vote!
<rbasak> Interesting, thanks.
<ddstreet> kamal is here if you guys want to ask him
<sil2100> (it's not my main language so remember it's just my intepretation)
<ddstreet> about my kernel work
<ddstreet> kamal o/
<kamal> hi o/
<sil2100> micahg: want to ask about kernel work still, or should we start voting?
<bdmurray> rbasak: I think it depends on the period of time between last upload and application.
<micahg> oh, if kamal wants to endorse, by all means :0
<micahg> :)
<ddstreet> kamal have i done some satisfactory kernel work in the past?
<kamal> I'm happy to endorse ddstreet ...  he has certainly contributed to the Ubuntu kernel (and our in-the-works custom kernels for clouds) ...
<ddstreet> in your experience? :)
<ddstreet> thnx
<kamal> I've found ddstreet to be easy to work with, and his work is of high quality.
<kamal> from the Ubuntu Kernel team's perspective, ddstreet is a good kernel contributor and a quality developer.
<kamal> ..
<sil2100> kamal: thanks!
<sil2100> Ok, I think we're good to start the vote
<sil2100> #vote Grant ddstreet Contributing Developer
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant ddstreet Contributing Developer
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<sil2100> #endvote
<kamal> +1
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant ddstreet Contributing Developer
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ddstreet> \o/
<sil2100> ddstreet: congratulations!
<kamal> ddstreet, congrats!
<sil2100> Who wants to take care of adding and announcing?
<sil2100> I'll assign it to me
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to add ddstreet to the contributing developer team
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to add ddstreet to the contributing developer team
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to announce ddstreet's new membership
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to announce ddstreet's new membership
<sil2100> Ok, moving on
<sil2100> #topic SRU-UPLOADER Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: SRU-UPLOADER Applications
<sil2100> #subtopic Eric Desrochers (slashd)
<sil2100> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slashd/sru-uploader
<sil2100> slashd: hello! Please introduce yourself :)
<slashd> My name is Eric (Ubuntu Member/Contributing Developer) working for Canonical for about 3 years now. I'm a Software Engineer in the Sustaining Engineering Group (Canonical STS) help in driving Ubuntu Advantage customer and community bugs into resolution by troubleshooting, fixing bugs, providing guidance & workarounds, for different areas of expertise which may cover areas such as: kernel, drivers, virtualization, network,
<slashd> cloud, storage setups, ... I'm working on various packaging aspects including hotfix/testfix and of course : SRU, ...
<slashd> Wiki SRU Uploader Application : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slashd/sru-uploader
<slashd> LP : https://launchpad.net/~slashd
<slashd> Sponsored Uploads : http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=Eric+Desrochers&sponsoree_search=name
<sil2100> Questions please
 * rbasak is reading
<sil2100> hm, you have a strange (interesting?) style of formatting changelog entries I noticed
<bdmurray> Can you talk about bug 1579609? It looks like it took a couple of uploads to fix it.
<ubottu> bug 1579609 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579609
<slashd> bdmurray, yeah, I was working with cyphermox on this (joint work) and cjwatson was also working on his side separately, so we did a few upload in -proposed but decided to set them verification-failed as we found new bugs, and new thing to add based on the joint effort
<slashd> but we have now a release that addresses everything in -update now
<slashd> version 3.3 IIRC
<slashd> ...3.3
<bdmurray> Did all those changes also make it into zesty?
<cjwatson> I don't think anyone can be blamed for it taking a few goes to get os-prober stuff right at the moment FWIW
<cjwatson> there's a different and much more invasive approach in zesty
<slashd> bdmurray, there is some bit missing in zesty still, cyphermox prefer to keep the re-work form cjwatson for Zesty only.
<cjwatson> (er, sorry, I just saw the highlight of my name, since this is a DMB meeting I should probably butt out)
<cyphermox> cjwatson: nah, it's good your input is welcome
<slashd> cjwatson, thanks for jumping on the discussion ;)
<bdmurray> Okay, that's all I had.
<rbasak> slashd: can you tell me what sort of things you expect to put in the "Regression Potential" section of the SRU paperwork?
<slashd> rbasak, just to make sure we are on the same page, are you referring to the SRU justification ?
<slashd> template
<rbasak> Right
<bdmurray> slashd: Do you envision yourself sponsoring other SRU uploads?
<slashd> I'm expecting someone doing the SRU or myself, to evaluate all possible scenarios of failure, or note any potential risk (major or minor) or behavoural changes (if any)
<slashd> bdmurray, I'm expecting to do it yes for help other in my team eventually
<sil2100> slashd: for the SRU uploads you prepared so far, were you also preparing all the SRU paperwork (the SRU template in the description)?
<slashd> or wider (depending on the needs and how I can help)
<slashd> sil21000, yes + debdiff for all affected releases
 * rbasak puts on his ~ubuntu-sru hat for a moment
<bdmurray> slashd: Not specifically related to your application but why is bug 1670696 worth fixing?
<ubottu> bug 1670696 in makedumpfile (Ubuntu Zesty) "Typo in error msg when no crashkernel memory reservation is set" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1670696
<bdmurray> s/fixing/SRUing/
<slashd> bdmurray, in a specific release or in general ?
<rbasak> Looking at the paperwork in 1593378, 1452202, 1648901, 1579609 and 1579609, I think the regression potential sections are all missing the "it's important to make the effort to think about what could happen in the event of a regression" part.
<rbasak> I'm relatively new on ~ubuntu-sru and I understand that I push harder on this than the others.
<bdmurray> slashd: Why is there a xenial task?
<rbasak> And this is the first SRU uploader application, so I'm not sure it's right to hold you to a higher standard than others, for example existing core devs.
<micahg> I'd say yes
<slashd> rbasak, I see it in #1593378, havent' check them all, but I normally pay really good attention to it, by reading one than once and updating several time until I find the justification good enought in my point of view
<micahg> (not because of him specifically)
<micahg> but in general, we should push for what's best for the archive/distro, not necessarily based on what's happened before
<micahg> IMHO of course
<rbasak> So I think I'm +1 on this currently, but I also think it's appropriate to call out.
<rbasak> And I think that future applicants for this new team would be the ones who should hold the standard up for SRU process quality.
<bdmurray> looking at 1593378 it might help to also say how long the patch has been in place e.g. 10 months or whatever
<sil2100> Any other questions?
<rbasak> I hope this application is being watched closely by potential future applicants.
<tinoco> rbasak: yep
<bdmurray> slashd: I'm still curious about the X task for 1670696...
<rbasak> So I'd like to say that I'll expect the SRUs provided as examples against future applications to only increase in quality to the (new) higher standard I'd like to see.
<rbasak> But for slashd, I appreciate that he's the first and that he's only what existing uploaders do, so I don't think it'd productive to decline this application.
<rbasak> Thank you for reading. I have no further questions.
<sil2100> bdmurray: are you still waiting for an answer?
<slashd> bdmurray, sure well I agree that it's not affecting the functionnality of the software, but this is a typo that can confuse ppl ("kenrel" instead of "kernel") not technical enough with kernel term
<bdmurray> Its not relevant to my vote, but I'd reject that SRU unless it was bundled with other real fixes.
<slashd> bdmurray noted
<sil2100> Ok, let's vote
<bdmurray> Its some amount of work to update the archive etc.. and it doesn't seem warranted in the case of a typo.
<slashd> bdmurray, ack
<rbasak> Also, there's *always* a regression risk.
<rbasak> That patch itself may not introduce a regression.
<sil2100> #vote Grant slashd SRU-UPLOADER
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant slashd SRU-UPLOADER
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> But a rebuild might if the build is accidentally non-deterministic, or if dependencies have changed.
<slashd> make sense
<rbasak> Or a user could be parsing error messages in some script somewhere.
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant slashd SRU-UPLOADER
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> slashd: congratulations as well! \o/
<rbasak> Congratulations on the first member of a team that hasn't been created yet :-)
<slashd> \o/ thanks guys
<sil2100> rbasak: will you take care of this?
<sil2100> Since this requires creation of the team as well
<rbasak> Yes, but as I'm on vacation I'd like to do it when I'm back on Monday, if that's OK slashd?
<slashd> rbasak, sure
<sil2100> #action rbasak to create and add slashd to the new SRU-UPLOADERS team
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to create and add slashd to the new SRU-UPLOADERS team
 * rbasak will not be using all-caps :-P
<sil2100> #action rbasak to announce slashd's new SRU-UPLOADERS team membership
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to announce slashd's new SRU-UPLOADERS team membership
<sil2100> Hey, I'm just using what's in the agenda!
<rbasak> I realise that ;)
<sil2100> I thought that was official or something ;p
<bdmurray> It should be SRU-uploaders though!
<sil2100> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<sil2100> Ok, final topic
<rbasak> When we rename to ~ubuntu-SRU perhaps? :-P
<sil2100> fossfreedom's budgie application
<bdmurray> don't tempt me
<sil2100> So it seems his application is stalled with not everyone voting yet
<sil2100> But his case is a very difficult one
<bdmurray> I think I did vote, did that get lost like chiluks?
<jbicha> micahg: late comment: fossfreedom wasn't told that he needed to come back with more endorsements on the mailing list or at the December meeting
<sil2100> We need to resolve it and inform him of our decision
<sil2100> Ah
<sil2100> bdmurray: indeed I see your vote in my inbox, why didn't I see it before?
<sil2100> Magic
<sil2100> Ok, so I think during the IRC meeting we had: Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1
<sil2100> And then bdmurray's -1
<sil2100> So his application has been rejected
<sil2100> I think we need to just announce that properly, this has somehow been very troublesome
<rbasak> So it stands at 3:2:1?
<sil2100> Yeah, not sure if we'll ever get infinity's vote
<rbasak> If so, then theoretically if he received a +1 from infinity then he could still be approved.
<rbasak> Right
<rbasak> Technically he is so far "not carried" rather then "rejected" then.
<sil2100> Ok, I'll put this on my plate then, I'll poke infinity directly and if not, just send out the current result
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to finalize fossfreedom's application vote situation
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to finalize fossfreedom's application vote situation
<rbasak> Sounds good. Thanks sil2100
<jbicha> thanks
<sil2100> Ok, I think we're a bit overdue already
<sil2100> Anything else?
<sil2100> I'll update the agenda in a bit with all what happened today
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 13 16:18:18 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-03-13-15.12.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks everyone o/
<slashd> o/
<rbasak> Thank you for chairing!
 * rbasak gets back to his vacation :-)
<sil2100> rbasak: have a nice rest! Thanks for appearing anyway :)
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 13 16:31:17 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have a bunch of updates that I'll be publishing in a few minutes
<mdeslaur> after that, I'll work on more updates
<mdeslaur> lather, rinse, repeat
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm also in the happy place
<sbeattie> I have glibc updates to finish testing and publish
<sbeattie> I need to investigate some qa-r-t regressions/issues for the kernel team, around some of the new kernels they're publishing, as well as for arm64/trusty, which I don't think they'd been testing consistently in the past.
<sbeattie> after that, I'll look for more updates to pick up.
<sbeattie> that's it for me, tyhicks?
<tyhicks> i'm on community this week
<tyhicks> I'm also working on an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> I am still trying to get back to my seccomp development work
<tyhicks> that should happen early this week
<tyhicks> and I see that I still have a design review on my todo list
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> ah, I also have a snapd PR to review
<jjohansen> I'll be continuinng work on apparmor upstreaming, dconf/gsettings FFE, and fixing bugs eg. I still have to figure out the regression that resulted in a couple of patches being reverted from  the sru kernel
<jjohansen> hrmm, I think that is it for me sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week; I'm still working on shadow and the mellon MIR; /me is dreaming of a bug-free week.. ;)
<tyhicks> just a sec
<tyhicks> jjohansen: what's still needed for the FFE?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: mostly doing the paper work, putting the lastest stuff in the ppa for people to use
<jjohansen> oh and I was adding a couple more regression tests
<tyhicks> jjohansen: are there any more revisions for you to work on?
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> sarnold: sorry; go ahead
<sarnold> tyhicks: heh, afaik that's the entire report :)
<tyhicks> no worries :)
<sarnold> daylight saving time is a hell of a thing
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: you're up
<chrisccoulson> Sorry, was afk briefly
<chrisccoulson> I need to do a firefox update this week to fix a regression. I've also got thunderbird to update
<chrisccoulson> There was a Chromium release next week, so I'll be preparing the corresponding Oxide release
<chrisccoulson> I've also got an embargoed update
<chrisccoulson> Fingers crossed I'll be able to get firefox building with rustc / cargo this week - all of the bits are in place now
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be catching up on Oxide work / reviews this week
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<ratliff> I'm on CVE triage this week
<ratliff> I'm still poking at the notification script and other CVE tools
<ratliff> I have to prep for a webinar and do other internal work items
<ratliff> If I have additional time, I'll work on updates for vivid for core and touch
<ratliff> back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/citadel.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/undertow.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/duck.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lshell.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libemail-address-perl.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 13 16:48:16 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-03-13-16.31.moin.txt
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-03-14
<szilard> tinoco,
 * nacc is a little early, but o/
<cpaelzer> you are not alone
<cpaelzer> o/
<nacc> yay
<cpaelzer> I'm early while you all still sleep :-P
 * smb is not sleeping
<powersj> o/
<cpaelzer> no more smb
<nacc> heh, it's an hour later than normal because Daylight Savings kicked in, in the US
<nacc> but now we're prone to accidents and anger
<nacc> err, more prone? :)
<powersj> lol
<powersj> and happy pi for those of us who put the month before the day
<powersj> pi day*
<rharper> o/
<nacc> i know rbasak and jgrimm may be otherwise occupied
<nacc> i think we can get started
<nacc> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 14 16:02:02 2017 UTC.  The chair is nacc. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<nacc> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<nacc> "rbasak, powersj, cpaelzer to draft mysql triage response page like nginx has"
 * cpaelzer <- not yet
<powersj> I started the page
<cpaelzer> yay
<nacc> link?
<powersj> lots' of todo
<powersj> let me see
<nacc> i'm assuming we'll need to carry it forward as an action for next meeting (and for the next few)?
<powersj> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/mysql
<rharper>  someone # link that
<nacc> #info MySQL triage response page started at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/mysql
<powersj> (literally copied the nginx one and cleaned it out and put todo's in it)
<nacc> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/mysql
<nacc> #action rbasak, powersj, cpaelzer to continue drafting mysql triage response page like nginx has
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak, powersj, cpaelzer to continue drafting mysql triage response page like nginx has
<nacc> moving on
<nacc> #topic Zesty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Zesty Development
<nacc> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<nacc> #subtopic blueprints
<nacc> #https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<cpaelzer> Just to get more eyes
<nacc> #info blueprint looks fairly clean for zesty
<cpaelzer> if any of you sees "new" issues around /etc/qemu-ifup pelase let me know
<cpaelzer> I work on a bug, but I'm somewhat leaning towards special/broken config
<cpaelzer> no need to info that
<cpaelzer> but those of you reading, if you see seomthing let me know
<cpaelzer> one more zesty-dev thing
<cpaelzer> usually around this time we start to poll for release notes
<cpaelzer> start to make your thoughts
<cpaelzer> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseNotes
<nacc> i'm assuming at some point we'll want to consider migrating INPROGRESS / BLOCKED to AA
<cpaelzer> you have to link that nacc
<cpaelzer> you are the commander :-)
<nacc> #info cpaelzer noted that we should start considering any server release notes for 17.04
<cpaelzer> I added qemu/dpdk/libvirt
<nacc> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseNotes
<cpaelzer> feel free to look at yakkety what we usually do
<cpaelzer> but especially if anything changed
<cpaelzer> smoser: ds-identiy here as well maybe?
<nacc> #action everyone to review Release Notes for server items
<meetingology> ACTION: everyone to review Release Notes for server items
<nacc> i think we can move on meanwhile
<nacc> #subtopic Release Bugs
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> #info no change in release bugs
<nacc> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> caribou: around?
<caribou> yep, but forgot to prepare, give me a minute
<nacc> np
<cpaelzer> all ongoing still: keepalived (X, unapproved), libvirt (T, proposed), qemu (X, unapproved), libvirt (Y, testing)
<cpaelzer> that is my list of this week
<caribou> here is mine :
<caribou> #info SRU are pending for : nfs-utils, sssd, multipath-tools, sosreport
<cpaelzer> caribou: which one is multipath?
<caribou> cpaelzer: LP: #1621340
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621340 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Yakkety) "[SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621340
<cpaelzer> ah, ok I know that one - thanks caribou
<caribou> always the same one :)
<nacc> caribou: thank you!
<cpaelzer> I'd expect this one passed somewhen
<nacc> ok to move on?
<cpaelzer> ack
<nacc> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<nacc> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> Last week looked at a few of backlog bugs: closed some, took some. Got my tomcat[7,8] SRU proposed thanks to nacc and rbasak. Monitored the cloud-init CI process and got the curtin CI process on the same system, which found and fixed a bug in jenkins-launchpad-plugin to. And the zesty ISO tests are green across the board!
<powersj> This week upgraded the LXD on the test systems to 2.11 to help with the locking issues (I hope), 4 days of bug triage, hope to sync on cloud-init kvm testing with Wes, and more bug work.
<nacc> #info powersj provided QA status, including zesty ISO tests are green
<cpaelzer> thanks for fighting bugs powersj
<powersj> cpaelzer: btw reran the tests only one failure
<powersj> the qemu ones that is, legit failure
<powersj> and np
<cpaelzer> double thanks then
<nacc> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Kernel side not much new: Zesty has 4.10. Related to that just as info that 4.10 based kernel might experience hangs when booted as HVM guests under Xen (Intel hosts). Reason is a bug in the TSC_ADJUST MSR support which I am currently working on to fix (bug 1671760). Any questions or kernel bugs anybody wants to mention?
<ubottu> bug 1671760 in xen (Ubuntu Zesty) "Xen HVM guests running linux 4.10 fail to boot on Intel hosts" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1671760
<nacc> #info zesty will ship 4.10, there is a bug in HVM guests under xen
<nacc> #link https://launchpad.net/bugs/1671760
<nacc> smb: nothing else, it seems, thanks!
<nacc> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<nacc> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<nacc> nothing I am aware of
<nacc> #info no upcoming CFP
<nacc> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<nacc> #info next Wednesday (22/3/2017) will be the first Ubuntu Server Bug Squashing Day
<nacc> #info following Wednesday (29/3/2017) will be the first Sponsorship Queue Squashing Party
<nacc> anything else?
<nacc> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<nacc> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<nacc> #info smoser to chair, 1600 UTC  on 21.3.17
<nacc> smoser: ok with you?
<cpaelzer> thanks nacc
 * nacc presumes it is :)
<nacc> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 14 16:20:17 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-03-14-16.02.moin.txt
<rharper> hehe
<nacc> thanks everyone
<powersj> nacc: thanks!
<rharper> nacc: thanks
<smoser> nacc, ack. i will chair next week.
<nacc> smoser: thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-03-16
<jgrimm> nacc, fyi I reset bug 1668940 to 'new'.. otherwise release team will never notice its FFe (according to FFe protocol)
<ubottu> bug 1668940 in samba (Ubuntu) "[FFe] samba-vfs-modules misses ceph vfs module" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1668940
<jgrimm> so sayeth the wiki
<jgrimm> oops, helps to get the right channel
<barry> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 16 15:01:07 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<cyphermox> hellO!
<barry> heLlo!
<bdmurray> hEllo!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> mwhudson barry xnox tdaitx bdmurray caribou sil2100 infinity robru doko cyphermox chiluk slangasek
<slangasek> barry:
<barry> ubuntu-image: LP: #1638645; released 1.0; SRU verifications done (LP: #1672755)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638645 in Ubuntu Image "Make ubuntu-image a classic snap" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638645
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1672755 in ubuntu-image (Ubuntu Yakkety) "SRU 1.0 tracking bug" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1672755
<barry> other: reviewed subiquity PR#204; reviewed cpython PR#659 (PEP 538); PR#473 ($PYTHONHISTORY); aptdaemon promotion hurty pain; LP: #1673258
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1673258 in zeroinstall-injector (Ubuntu Aa-series) "Remove aptdaemon and drop or port its reverse-dependencies" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1673258
<barry> --done--
<slangasek> xnox:
<xnox> Submitted final https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/5545 to address https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1668347
<xnox> Uploaded SRUs to address https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/s390-tools/+bug/1618463
<xnox> Working on cloudimages for rackspace onmetal
<xnox> Working on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mdadm/+bug/1608495 which affects above (800GB raid rebuild takes an hour, timing out reboots, thus unable to reboot, since there is no serial access)
<xnox> Working on apport adt test failures; which may be apt/apt-key failure.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1668347 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Unable to set bridge_portpriority with networkd" [Medium,In progress]
<xnox> ..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1618463 in s390-tools (Ubuntu Yakkety) "udev race condition with qeth device and bridge_role" [Undecided,In progress]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1608495 in mdadm (Ubuntu Zesty) "IMSM fakeraid handled by mdadm: unclean mounted volumes on shutdown/reboot" [Critical,Confirmed]
<xnox> prepared s390-tools v1.37.1 update (awaiting to be public)
<xnox> done
<tdaitx> = FTBFS
<tdaitx>   * cups-pdf (Debian: #857500, LP: #1672101)
<tdaitx>   * orthanc-dicomweb (Debian: #857424, LP: #1671959)
<tdaitx>   * orthanc-webviewer (Debian: #857355, LP: #1671955)
<tdaitx>   * location-service (LP: #1640320)
<tdaitx> = JCK
<ubottu> Debian bug 857500 in cups-pdf "cups-pdf: cups library should be set last" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/857500
<bdmurray> xnox: you are still working on the apport adt failure?
<tdaitx>   * requested firewall exception to run interactive tests (ongoing)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1672101 in cups-pdf (Ubuntu) "FTBFS: undefined reference (cups-pdf-3.0.1-2) [zesty/all arches]" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1672101
<tdaitx>   * requested reinstall of jenkins plugin (done)
<ubottu> Debian bug 857424 in orthanc-dicomweb "orthanc-dicomweb: Libraries manually set in wrong order" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/857424
<tdaitx>   * [low priority] follow up - after 4+ months - solutions on accessing arm64/ppc64el for jck: move amd64 to same region, add lower spec amd64 on same region, or get an firewall exception for a vpn (ongoing)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1671959 in orthanc-dicomweb (Debian) "FTBFS: undefined references - affects zesty/all arches (orthanc-dicomweb 0.3+dfsg-1)" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1671959
<ubottu> Debian bug 857355 in orthanc-webviewer "orthanc-webviewer: Libraries manually set in wrong order" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/857355
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1671955 in orthanc-webviewer (Debian) "FTBFS: undefined references - affects zesty/all arches (orthanc-webviewer 2.2-1)" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1671955
<tdaitx>   * executing full tests
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640320 in location-service (Ubuntu) "FTBFS in zesty" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640320
<tdaitx> = AOB
<tdaitx>   * Going to MiniDebConf in Curitiba tonight, will be working from coffee shops and university tomorrow (ie. can't guarantee I will be online)
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> worked with vanguard in webops regarding hung retrace-amd64 processes
<bdmurray> discovered retracer-amd64 processes are all stuck retracing vim crashes from 16.10
<xnox> bdmurray, i did some work on it; but need to come back to it; to drive it to completion. The rackspace / raid bug is also as urgent.
<bdmurray> submitted RT re increasing frequency of retracers-cache-restart cron job
<bdmurray> investigation into apport-retrace / gdb failure with vim crashes
<bdmurray> submitted RT re swift download of vim core files
<bdmurray> modified daisy's retracer.py to put vim 16.10 crashes at the end of the queue
<bdmurray> tested apport solib path changes with test-crashes
<bdmurray> xnox: you physically see me though and I'm a terminator
<bdmurray> uploaded update-notifier / update-manager fix for LP: #1654008
<bdmurray> irc discussion with xnox regarding apport test issue
<bdmurray> irc discussion with nacc regarding extract-changelogs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1654008 in update-notifier (Ubuntu Yakkety) "/usr/bin/update-manager:OverflowError:/usr/bin/update-manager@117" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1654008
<bdmurray> approved SRU special case of gce-compute-image-packages
<bdmurray> dmb work regarding open positions
<bdmurray> â done
<caribou>  LP #1654600 : unattended-upgrades breaks shutdown when /var is FS
<caribou>  - Identified root cause; waiting for Foundation review of the fix
<caribou>  LP: #1176046 : Reviewing proposed solution
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1654600 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "unattended-upgrade-shutdown hangs when /var is a separate filesystem" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1654600
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1176046 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu Trusty) "isc-dhcp dhclient listens on extra random ports" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1176046
<caribou>  LP: #1342580 - tftp does not start if NIC is down
<caribou>  - Uploaded Uploaded for SRU to T, X & Y
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1342580 in tftp-hpa (Ubuntu Yakkety) "tftpd-hpa doesn't start on boot" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1342580
<caribou> Meetings
<caribou> â Done
<infinity> I came in after the shuffle, when am I in?
<robru> infinity: it's sil2100 then you then me
<gaughen> o/
<xnox> gaughen, mumble?
<robru> no sil apparently
<infinity>  - Reverted a snapd update that caused fresh installs to break
<infinity>  - Helping mvo investigate and deal with fallout from snapd SRU revert
<infinity>  - Worked on glibc some more, will land by the weekend or not at all
<infinity>  - General AA/SRU work
<infinity>  - Fixed a bug in unity-control-center with applets not showing up
<infinity>  - Discussions with Lubuntu people about PPAs and lubuntu-next
<infinity>  - Discussions around release sprint stuff
<infinity> (done)
<robru> britney:
<robru> * email policy actually rolled to production
<robru> * source ppa grouping fix live in production (LP: #1648000)
<robru> bileto:
<robru> * fixed for SRU tickets to not include overlay PPA during britney runs (LP: #1665180)
<robru> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648000 in Launchpad itself "need API to discover where a given package is copied from" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648000
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1665180 in Bileto "Britney always included overlay PPA even when ticket does not." [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1665180
<cyphermox> doko: ?
<bdmurray> I didn't get any emails and now I want something to be stuck in -proposed to see what happens!
<slangasek> bdmurray: a SCSI terminator?
<cyphermox> ok, no doko
<cyphermox> zesty:
<cyphermox>  - fixing netplan autopkgtests
<cyphermox>  - preparing another netplan release with the last few bits for MAAS: setting MTU, setting custom MAC addresses...
<cyphermox> subiquity:
<cyphermox>  - preparing an nicer image for people to test
<cyphermox>  - getting snapd to seed snaps in a classic model
<cyphermox> shim:
<cyphermox>  - we're still waiting on it to be signed.
<cyphermox> NM:
<cyphermox>  - some discussions about connectivity-checking
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> infinity: FFe bug for glibc?
<chiluk> * Mostly worked on cloudy/ceph stuff, and then some kernel stuff this week.  Not much foundations work.
<chiluk> - done -
<slangasek>  * cloud images
<slangasek>  * image minimization
<slangasek>  * ubuntu-core image builds
<slangasek>  * discussions around 12.04 ESM
<slangasek>  * taking a half day this morning (after the meeting)
<slangasek> (done)
<infinity> slangasek: You'll get one if I decide it should be uploaded.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> any other questions on status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<cyphermox> yeah
<bdmurray> bug 1639374 any status update?
<ubottu> bug 1639374 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub-pc fails to remove, rendering lubuntu uninstallable on EFI machines" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1639374
<cyphermox> bdmurray: I was very much under the impression that this was in fact fixed
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I just ask as the duplicate is kinda crazy.
<cyphermox> ie. it was broken because grub-$something was missing from the image, and now it's there.
<bdmurray> so the yakkety image is bad, but zesty should be good now?
<cyphermox> it looked like straight fallback from the grub removal
<cyphermox> I'll have to look again, yakkety should not have been affected.
<cyphermox> OTOH, to fix this we'd need to spin up a new yakkety image for lubuntu.
<sil2100> Wow, ok, didn't notice the timezone change
<slangasek> sil2100: hi! do you want to give a status update?
<sil2100> I didn't write it down yet, but I guess I can summarize my status quick:
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews, SRU reviews, walinuxagent preparation and testing, finalizing ubuntu-image stuff
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100: thanks :)
<slangasek> anything else, then?
<sil2100> Oh, and I prepped a cleanup branch for kernel-sru-review that I wanted to propose for merging
<sil2100> But I keep forgetting that
<sil2100> (for the cleanup of the temporary files)
<slangasek> sil2100: ooh
<slangasek> yes please :)
<slangasek> sil2100: apw had some further feedback on the tool which I hadn't had a chance to follow up on... including letting the tool not fall on its face if 1 of 3 source packages get accepted
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 16 15:25:23 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-03-16-15.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> I guess we're done!
<slangasek> thanks
<barry> thanks!
<caribou> thanks!
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> is that a raised hand or a wave goodbye?
<sil2100> slangasek: yeah, I guess I had that happening once already
<sil2100> bdmurray: wave goodbye
<sil2100> o/ o\ o/
<sil2100> You know, like this
<infinity> in kill
<nacc> sil2100: i'm pretty sure that's a dance move
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-03-19
<cariboo> I see most of us are here, are we ready to start the meeting?
<oldos2er> ready if you are, cariboo
<cariboo> or should we wait a few minutes for the laggards
<slickymaster> I'm here
<cariboo> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Mar 19 20:06:29 2017 UTC.  The chair is cariboo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<cariboo> #chair slickymaster oldos2er howefield cariboo
<meetingology> Current chairs: cariboo howefield oldos2er slickymaster
<cariboo> Do we have anything that needs dissuasion here, such as our twoo missing forum staff?
<oldos2er> We know why one's gone. Not sure abt the other
<cariboo> MAFoElffen is gone because of school and work commitments, but we left things open in case he found the time for the Forum
<oldos2er> Ah, I misunderstood, sorry
<howefield> both genuine RL commitments, as I undersand.
<cariboo> I guess this should be a topic
<cariboo> #topic
* Topic unset by meetingology on #ubuntu-meeting
<cariboo> missing forum staff members
<cariboo> oops that should be
<cariboo> #topic missing staff members
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: missing staff members
<oldos2er> Has anyone tried to email MAFoElffen?
<howefield> I'd suggest moving to former staff and rolling out the welcome mat for both as and when/if they are able to return.
<cariboo> that was my thought
<slickymaster> +1 from me to that
<oldos2er> fine by me
<cariboo> Do we need to vote on the matter?
<howefield> it was left to MAFoElffen to keep us in the loop
<oldos2er> I see
<howefield> as to how things were going for him, but no, for my part I haven't emailed.
<slickymaster> we can vote cariboo
<cariboo> #vote
<meetingology> Please vote on:
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<oldos2er> I'll try to do that in the near future
<oldos2er> +1
<slickymaster> +1
<cariboo> +1
<slickymaster> you forget to add what we are voting on, cariboo
<cariboo> I see that, I try again
<cariboo> #endvote
<meetingology> No vote in progress
<cariboo> #vote to move the two missing members to former staff
<meetingology> Please vote on: to move the two missing members to former staff
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<howefield> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from howefield
<slickymaster> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slickymaster
<cariboo> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo
<oldos2er> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from oldos2er
<cariboo> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: to move the two missing members to former staff
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cariboo> Anything else?
<slickymaster> baps?
<oldos2er> Same action?
<cariboo> Much as I hate to do it yes.
<oldos2er> Agree with your sentiment, but I think it's something we can't ignore.
<slickymaster> exactly
<cariboo> #vote move bapoumba to former staff
<meetingology> Please vote on: move bapoumba to former staff
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cariboo> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo
<slickymaster> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slickymaster
<oldos2er> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from oldos2er
<howefield> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from howefield
<cariboo> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: move bapoumba to former staff
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<slickymaster> I think one of us should mail her in the name of the FC explaining it to her
<cariboo> I emailed her about 6 months ago, and never got an answer
<oldos2er> Nevertheless, we should. I will if need be.
<slickymaster> thanks oldos2er
<oldos2er> Sure
<cariboo> Thanks oldos2er
<oldos2er> No problem
<slickymaster> think that's pretty much what we had to discuss
<cariboo> The only other thin I've got is that QIII has to buy the doughnuts, as he missed his FC meeting as an FC member :)
<oldos2er> lol
<oldos2er> And coffeecat can bring, obviously, the coffee
<oldos2er> Any other concerns?
<slickymaster> no here
<slickymaster> s/no/not
<oldos2er> ok
<cariboo> So if that's it, I'm going to end the meeting.
<oldos2er> Someone just made an appearance
<slickymaster> cooffecat just arrived
<coffeecat> sorry about that - something unavoidable came up
<cariboo> no problem, I was just about to end the meeting
<cariboo> we can bring you up to date in the other channel.
<cariboo> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Mar 19 20:34:04 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-03-19-20.06.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-03-12
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> o/
<micahg> o/
<sil2100> I heard something about daylight saving time in the US again, so I assume it might get things a bit complicated
<nacc> sil2100: yeah, we sprang forward an hour this weekend
<bdmurray> o/
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 12 15:05:19 2018 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<bdmurray> There was that one about mapreri which was done.
<sil2100> Ok
<sil2100> I don't think we had anything else from the previous meeting?
<sil2100> I didn't see anything
<sil2100> (I cleaned up the agenda already)
<sil2100> So, we basically don't have anything really on our agenda, there's the still-standing application of Simon for Qt uploaders
<sil2100> Do we want to handle it today, or should we continue through e-mail?
<sil2100> If by e-mail, I would say we should start asking questions and move on to voting this week
<sil2100> Not sure if tsimonq2 is even around to answer our questions here (if we decide to do it of course)
<bdmurray> He's updated his wiki page correct?
<rbasak> Yes - I can see what he has been sponsored for clearly now.
<sil2100> Yes, that is my understanding
<rbasak> If he's here, I'm happy to proceed in this meeting.
<tsimonq2> Barely. ;)
<tsimonq2> Ask questions if you have them but reception isn't good here.
<sil2100> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<sil2100> #subtopic Qt Uploaders for tsimonq2
<sil2100> The application, as a reminider: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tsimonq2/Applications/Qt5Uploader
<sil2100> Questions?
<rbasak> I have none. I'm ready to vote.
<bdmurray> I'm still looking at the updated app.
 * sil2100 needs to go AFK for 5 mins
<tsimonq2> I need to go without a phone for ~ an hour starting in ~ 5 mins. Then it's my lunch hour, so I can answer questions over IRC if there any at that time.
<sil2100> Back
<bdmurray> I'm ready
<cyphermox> ready to vote as well
<sil2100> Ok
<sil2100> micahg: you good to vote as well?
<micahg> sure
<tsimonq2> Ahh, just when I need to go AFK. Sorry :(
<tsimonq2> ttfn
<sil2100> #vote Grant Qt Uploader PPU access to tsimonq2
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant Qt Uploader PPU access to tsimonq2
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<rbasak> (now that I understand the application :-)
<sil2100> +1 (I have seen some of the work of Simon's on Qt transitions through Bileto and was happy with what was going on)
<meetingology> +1 (I have seen some of the work of Simon's on Qt transitions through Bileto and was happy with what was going on) received from sil2100
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant Qt Uploader PPU access to tsimonq2
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: congrats
<sil2100> tsimonq2: congratulations!
<sil2100> Making someone click a button in Bileto seems like not a big deal, but that also doesn't mean someone shouldn't get upload rights for the packages he/she is working on
<sil2100> I'll add tsimonq2 to the right team in that case
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to add tsimonq2 to the Ubuntu Qt5 Uploaders team
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to add tsimonq2 to the Ubuntu Qt5 Uploaders team
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<rbasak> I see an email to devel-permission@ from darkxst.
<rbasak> I think cyphermox was going to look into that?
<rbasak> I don't see any other ML activity needing action; that's the only one.
<sil2100> cyphermox: are you working on that?
 * sil2100 can't seem to find that e-mail
<jbicha> the desktop-extra seed is poorly defined. I wonder if we should just encourage darkxst to apply for MOTU?
<rbasak> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 10:59:36 +1100
<rbasak> Subject: Loosing upload rights to some GNOME components
<jbicha> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/bionic/desktop-extra
<micahg> shouldn't desktop-extra seed the packages in SUPPORTED that they want to maintain?
<jbicha> we could try using the supported seed in ubuntu-gnome-meta and then kill desktop-extra
<cyphermox> rbasak: there is extra work needed, as mentioned by jbicha
<micahg> well, IIRC, desktop-extra was to give upload rights to ubuntu-desktop folks so they could also upload universe GNOME packages, if we wanted to extend ubuntu-gnome rights to them (or already are?) then there would be no need for the duplicate
<jbicha> it looks like ubuntu-desktop is already a member of ubuntu-gnome
<cyphermox> I think it will require a bit more investigation to figure out exactly what the best way to fix this is
<cyphermox> especially given that tasksel needs a task to deal with too if you're indeed supposed to be able to install vanilla separately.
<rbasak> Does darkxst know the reason for the delay?
<jbicha> I chatted with him then. His list isn't complete and there was the desktop-extra question
<jbicha> let's follow up on the list then?
<rbasak> Please
<jbicha> ok, I'm replying there. End of meeting?
<sil2100> What about the budgie packageset?
<sil2100> Did that get solved?
<jbicha> sil2100: yes: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/bionic/ubuntu-budgie
<sil2100> Excellent! I missed that completely
<sil2100> Should we reach out to fossfreedom to move him to the packageset uploaders?
<rbasak> Have we voted to make him an uploader of the packageset specifically?
<jbicha> sil2100: we said before that we'd need to have a separate vote for that :(
<cyphermox> that's the process
<rbasak> IIRC some board members had doubts about the whole packageset, but were OK with a subset.
<jbicha> micahg: sorry, I was looking at the wrong page. ubuntu-desktop doesn't have upload rights for ubuntugnome but I don't object to that happening
<rbasak> Unless I'm thinking of some other case.
<rbasak> But if so, then it's exactly what we wanted, rather than an unfortunate consequence of the process.
<sil2100> Separate vote is fine
<cyphermox> well, it's only an issue in the process because this is specifically a packageset made from a seed
<cyphermox> so there's some variation in what might be in the seed, leading to someone applying having more generic upload rights than if it was a packageset for just some tighly-defined set of packages
<cyphermox> ie. budgie is not "qt5 only", it's anything that is needed for budgie minus what's in some other seeds such that it lands in core.
<sil2100> I would have to compare the packageset and what PPU rights were actually given
<cyphermox> maybe we can be nice to fossfreedom and start voting on an hypothetical application against the packageset as it is now?
<cyphermox> (on the ML I mean)
<sil2100> I wouldn't mind, seems a bit informal but sounds ok
<sil2100> cyphermox: would you maybe send out an e-mail to the ML about this?
<cyphermox> well, if we're to think it's not ready yet, then we can tell him what we expect.
<sil2100> Ok, let's maybe finish the meeting
<rbasak> Does anyone have a link to his original application handy? I'd like to see the original endorsements etc.
 * sil2100 needs to AFK for some minutes again
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> (you can continue here though!)
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 12 15:48:48 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-03-12-15.05.moin.txt
<jbicha> rbasak: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/fossfreedom/UbuntuBudgieDevApplication
<rbasak> Thanks!
<jbicha> rbasak: also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/fossfreedom/budgie-extrasPPUApplication (which copies the previous endorsements and adds Simon)
<tsimonq2> \o/
<tsimonq2> Thank you sil2100 rbasak et. al!
<kokoye2007> Hi
<kyrofa> Hey there :)
<kokoye2007> Nice to meet ya again
<kyrofa> Letozaf_, kenvandine you two around?
<kyrofa> Sounds like we're operating under capacity today
<kenvandine> hey
<kenvandine> i'm here ;)
<kenvandine> just trying to get caught up, still recovering from jet lag
<kyrofa> Haha, yeah I bet
<Letozaf_> here I am :)
<kyrofa> So there are only three of us today, but as long as we're unanimous we still represent the majority of the council
<kenvandine> so that's a good question, you have a good point about if we are unanimous we are the majority
<kenvandine> but
<kenvandine> having more input is good
<kyrofa> Of course
<kenvandine> so the questions raised by others could be good
<kyrofa> Are you saying you'd like to wait until the others are available? Note that we have kokoye2007 from myanmar here today
<kenvandine> ok, maybe we should just go for it
<kyrofa> Seems a tad unfair to push dates around because some of the council can't make it unless we can give a pretty decent heads up to folks on the agenda
<kenvandine> yeah
<kenvandine> agreed
<kenvandine> and if we have representation here from the loco, we should make our best effort
<kyrofa> Letozaf_, agreed?
<Letozaf_> yes agreed
<kyrofa> Excellent. kenvandine, feel like imposing your will on the bot today?
<kenvandine> yes
<kenvandine> let me find my notes, 2 minutes
<kyrofa> Sure thing
<kenvandine> #startmeeting LoCoCouncil 2018-03-12
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 12 20:12:37 2018 UTC.  The chair is kenvandine. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2018-03-12 Meeting | Current topic:
<kenvandine> roll call
<kenvandine> let's note that gsilvapt and nhaines are not able to make the meeting this week
<kenvandine> council members please wave to record attendance
 * kyrofa waves
 * kenvandine waves
<Letozaf_> carla waves
<Letozaf_> he he sorry...
<kenvandine> #topic MyanmarTeam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2018-03-12 Meeting | Current topic: MyanmarTeam
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MyanmarTeam/VerificationApplication2018
<kenvandine> kokoye2007, you are here to represent Myanmar?
<kyrofa> Uh oh :P
<thohi> me and kokoye here
<kyrofa> Hey there thohi
<Letozaf_> o/
<thohi> Hi
<kyrofa> Things seem much improved in the application this time around, thank you for updating it
<thohi> Thanks
<kyrofa> thohi, it claims your home page is ubuntu-mm.net, but that's a 404. Are you aware of this?
<kokoye2007>  == You are banned from this server- You have a host listed in the DroneBL. For more information, visit http://dronebl.org/lookup?ip=121.54.164.11  Please contact proxyscan@freenode.net with questions. (2018/3/12 20.14) [02:44] == ERROR: Closing Link: ubuntu/member/kokoye2007 (K-Lined) [02:44] == Disconnected from server: Connection to IRC server lost.
<kokoye2007> :3
<kokoye2007> sorry for dc
<kokoye2007> our ip is blacklist again
<kyrofa> Ouch
<thohi> still Ok from local
<kenvandine> 4 events already this year, that's great
<kyrofa> And 2017 very nicely filled in
<kokoye2007> sir @kenvandine
<kokoye2007> 5 event ;)
<kokoye2007> 2 Meeting
<kokoye2007> i just add
<kyrofa> My only comment is the 404 homepage. I really have no questions, things look good from my perspective
<kokoye2007> opps
<kokoye2007> i upgrade SSL
<kenvandine> ah
<kenvandine> https works :)
<kyrofa> Well, without the www
<kyrofa> Make the link https://ubuntu-mm.net and you're good
<kyrofa> Otherwise you'll need to add www to the cert
<kokoye2007> thanks
<kenvandine> anyone else have questions for kokoye2007 or thohi?
<kokoye2007> i forget www to ssl redir
<kyrofa> No more questions from me
<Letozaf_> I have no questions
<kenvandine> #vote MyanmarTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Please vote on: MyanmarTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<kenvandine> #voters Letozaf_ kenvandine kyrofa
<meetingology> Current voters: Letozaf_ kenvandine kyrofa
<kenvandine> #votesrequired 3
<meetingology> votes now need 3 to be passed
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<kenvandine> excellent!
<kenvandine> thanks kokoye2007 and thohi!
<kyrofa> Thank you kokoye2007 and thohi for updating your application, and for being present today
<kokoye2007> now also done www redirect
<kokoye2007> thanks you so much
<thohi> Thanks to Council members
<kyrofa> #endvote
<kyrofa> :(
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: MyanmarTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<kenvandine> sorry :)
<kenvandine> i missed that part
<kyrofa> Haha, no problem, I guess that only works if you're a chair
<kenvandine> yeah
<kenvandine> i thought since i added required votes it was automatic
<kenvandine> i've updated MyanmarTeam's status in LP already
<kyrofa> Yeah you'd think so
<kokoye2007> Thank sir
<kokoye2007> any suggestion for ubuntu-mm ?
<kyrofa> We technically have SwissTeam on our agenda as well, shall we discuss them quickly just for the meeting minutes?
<kenvandine> kyrofa, yes
<kenvandine> so the bug has enough +1s to pass
<kyrofa> kokoye2007, only one: if you work to keep your pages up-to-date as you go, the re-verification app will be much easier
<kyrofa> kenvandine, want to update the topic for the minutes?
<kenvandine> sure
<kenvandine> #topic Re-verification, ubuntu-ch
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2018-03-12 Meeting | Current topic: Re-verification, ubuntu-ch
<kenvandine> There was a bug filed to track getting some questions answered
<kenvandine> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-locoteams/+bug/1750544
<ubottu> Error: launchpad bug 1750544 not found
<kenvandine> that private though :)
<kyrofa> Yeah, timezones are different enough asynchronous seemed to be best
<kyrofa> Long story short: the council voted to re-verify SwissTeam
<kenvandine> 3 votes in favor
<kenvandine> kyrofa, did you vote?  maybe i missed your's in the comments
<kyrofa> kenvandine, I voted first! Haha
<kyrofa> Four votes
<kenvandine> 4 :)
<kenvandine> so it passes
<kenvandine> congratulations to the SwissTeam!
<kenvandine> i guess that's it for this month
<kyrofa> Indeed, if no one has any other business, that's it for our agenda
<kenvandine> thanks everyone!
<kenvandine> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 12 20:35:38 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-03-12-20.12.moin.txt
<Letozaf_> bye
<Letozaf_> o/
<kyrofa> kenvandine, mind updating SwissTeam's status while you're in there?
<kyrofa> Perhaps you already did?
<kenvandine> done :)
<kenvandine> looking at the meeting logs now
<kyrofa> So fast
<kyrofa> Thanks kenvandine, Letozaf_
<Letozaf_> yw
<kenvandine> You did not change the page content, not saved!
<kenvandine> creating the wiki page with the minutes
<kyrofa> Hmm...
 * kyrofa throws wiki out the window
<kenvandine> ok... starting from scratch fixed it
<kenvandine> Updated the wiki for next month's meeting
<kenvandine> thanks all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-03-15
 * slangasek waves
<philroche> \o
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 15 15:03:15 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning Round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther juliank)
<slangasek> xnox Odd_Bloke tdaitx bdmurray cyphermox sil2100 rbalint mwhudson fginther slangasek philroche infinity rcj tribaal juliank doko
<slangasek> xnox: HELLO
<juliank> meeting moved up one hour in europe I think
<juliank> IIRC
<juliank> maybe we're all confused :D
<slangasek> sure, per the calendar :)
<bdmurray> I'm not confused about the meeting time, lots of other things though.
<slangasek> Odd_Bloke is out today
<slangasek> tdaitx said he might miss the meeting
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 9 as default JDK
<tdaitx>   - ongoing fixes and rebuilds
<tdaitx>   - syncing & waiting updates from debian
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> discussion with webops regarding retracer nagios alerts
<bdmurray> uploaded software-properties fix for LP: #1693032
<bdmurray> uploaded Artful SRUs for (LP: #1690541, LP: #1689668)
<bdmurray> developed test case, uploaded fix for LP: #1693038
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1693032 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "missing dependency on gnome-session-bin" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1693032
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1690541 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Artful) "Scrolled windows in update-manager are too small to read" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1690541
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1689668 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Artful) "dialog to resolve config file conflicts can be only one line high" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1689668
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1693038 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "needs to support restart on Lubuntu and Xubuntu" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1693038
<bdmurray> RU verification of aptdaemon (LP: #1690541, LP: #1689668)
<bdmurray> investigation into retracer hangs (LP and ET)
<bdmurray> discovered cause of retrace hangs (sandbox & glibc issue)
<bdmurray> removed a bunch of core files from swift
<bdmurray> updated retracer process clean up job for gdb call
<bdmurray> investigation into rsyslog log rotation bug (LP: #940030)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 940030 in rsyslog (Ubuntu Bionic) "rsyslog stops working after logrotate until restarted" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/940030
<bdmurray> research into how plymouth --ping works (LP: #1705345)
<bdmurray> found a way to make plymouth --ping hang
<bdmurray> wrote a couple of tools to clean up unnecessary core files
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1705345 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "Installing packages hangs on plymouth --ping" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1705345
<bdmurray> review of https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/ubuntu-release-upgrader/lp1749199/+merge/341342
<bdmurray> commented on LP: #1725359 again
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1725359 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "release detection relies on lsb-release" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1725359
<bdmurray> manual retracing / review of some Launchpad retracer failures
<bdmurray> done
<bdmurray> email discussion regarding snap errors at errors.u.c
<cyphermox> uh, out of order done marker confused me
<cyphermox> - MIR reviews
<cyphermox> - doc/website/blog writing for netplan
<cyphermox> - grub2 review for initramfs-less fallback
<cyphermox> - [HIGHLIGHT] netplan.io 0.34 release
<cyphermox> - preparing netplan.io 0.34.1: small bugfixes, build easier on other distros
<cyphermox> - [HIGHLIGHT] made ubuntu-archive-assistant its own project
<cyphermox> - investigating lubuntu ubiquity issues
<cyphermox> - investigating casper netboot issues
<cyphermox> (done)
<sil2100> Argh, timezone madness
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> sil2100: good timing, you're up :)
<cyphermox> sil2100: your turn
<sil2100> I'm... I'm not ready!
<juliank> At least you're here :)
<sil2100> (please skip me for now, I'll go last)
<slangasek> rbalint:
<slangasek> ok; and no fginther?
<juliank> hmm, ok, me then
<juliank> um no
<philroche> fginther is on site today
<doko> surprise meeting ...
 * juliank looked at unshuffled list...
<slangasek>  * sprint last week; off Monday
<slangasek>  * shepherding cloud kernels into bionic
<slangasek>  * discussions around archive rebuild with retpoline; ultimately decided against based on most current information
<slangasek>  * continued work on +1 maintenance (e.g. ruby), to clear the backlog for 18.04 release
<slangasek>  * worked with tribaal to prepare an MP to grub2 to let systems do opportunistic initramfsless boot with fallback https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/grub/+git/ubuntu/+merge/341272
<slangasek> (done)
<philroche> * Canonical sprint last week in Budapest
<philroche> * Release review-gator snap https://dashboard.snapcraft.io/snaps/review-gator/
<philroche> * Monday swap day
<philroche> * Cloud image build system maintenance and feature development
<philroche> * Cloud image build system vanguard this week
<philroche> * Worked on providing 18.04 preview to cloud partners. Users can grap a daily from http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/bionic/current/ for testing.
<philroche> (done)
 * sil2100 is ready
<slangasek> sil2100: go ahead
<sil2100> - Last week: sprinting
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Kernel reviews and releases
<sil2100> - FFe reviews
<sil2100> - Publishing the new google-cloud-sdk
<sil2100> - Working on and testing of proof-of-concepts for grub2 --auto-nvram
<sil2100> - Minor archive cleanups (stale/failed SRUs, removal of nplan)
<sil2100> - Trying to reproduce ubuntu-image issues with system-data + content: syntax
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> rcj:
<rcj> * Engineering sprint in Budapest last week
<rcj>  * Discussed tweaks to improve to cloud-image CVE process
<rcj>  * Worked on image publication improvements to improve error handling
<rcj> * Added squashfs image to final Precise MAAS serial to enable re-installs for ESM (amd64)
<rcj> * Reviewing netplan.io site documentation
<rcj> * Vacation day on Monday
<rcj> (done)
<doko> tribaal:
<philroche> tribaal is OoO
<juliank> oh, tribaal is not here
<juliank> - gnutls28 3.5.18 merge
<juliank> - zstd emails
<juliank> - got IS to enable https for changelogs.ubuntu.com (for meta-release files), changed update-manager and u-r-u to use that (bug 1744318), made apt(-get) changelog use it too ;)
<juliank> - finding bugs on my newly setup bionic on my new laptop :)
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> oh, he is
<juliank> well he's in the channel, how did I miss that
<ubottu> bug 1744318 in update-manager (Ubuntu Bionic) "changelogs.ubuntu.com should be using HTTPS" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1744318
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - GCC 7 & GCC 8 updates, including cross compilers
<doko> - enabled the sanitzer in GCC on s390x (nobody noticed before ...)
<doko> - cross-toolchain-base updates, built from glibc-2.27
<doko> - forwarded three GCC & binutils issues upstream
<doko> - python 3.7 beta2
<doko> - python 3.6 release candidate 1
<doko> - updated openjdk-10 package
<doko> - new openjdk-11 package \o/
<doko> - made LLVM 6.0 the default LLVM
<doko> - processed around 10 MIRs
<doko> - fixing autopkg test failures ... ongoing saga
<doko> (done)
 * xnox is very confused
<juliank> xnox: do as the calendar says :)
<slangasek> xnox: daylight shreddings time
<slangasek> xnox: are you ready to give status?
<xnox> â¢ finished fixing keyring/invocation_id in containers both in systemd & kernel
<xnox> â¢ moving ruby transition along
<xnox> â¢ working on fixing network-manager <-> resolved integration
<xnox> â¢ fixing minimal image builds (in progress
<xnox> â¢ MIR/components missmatches zstd done
<xnox> â¢ done
 * juliank is lucky gnome-online-account calendar stuff is broken so he looked at calendar a lot
<slangasek> xnox: "finished fixing" - oooh?
<slangasek> juliank: haha
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<xnox> slangasek, yes; will resend kernel patch & will upload systemd patch. Basically i can make it work either way now. so to be fair kernel patch is redundant, but i know a lot more about keyrings now....
<slangasek> xnox: but can you attach gif keychains to your keyrings
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<slangasek> LP: #1753361 - xnox that looks like a straightforward request?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1753361 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Please set a maximum size for the sytemd journal" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1753361
<juliank> huh?
<juliank> it does have one
<doko> I'll take #1751011
<xnox> slangasek, it's already set
<juliank> It's use up to 10%, and keep 15% free
<xnox> there is a hard cap of 4GB as well
<slangasek> ok. should we take it for more investigation?
<juliank> Well, 4.5G is about 4
<slangasek> doko: to do what with it?
<slangasek> doko: we discussed this bug previously and we had nacked changing bash to make qemu-user happy
<slangasek> in fact, I'm going to take that off the incoming list
<xnox> slangasek, set that bug to invalid.
<slangasek> xnox: ok
<doko> slangasek: hmm
<juliank> JFTR: I installed my T480s yesterday evening, and now at 4pm, journal is already using 4GB
<doko> slangasek: that's not recorded in the bug report ...
<juliank> but might have been broken chrome :)
<bdmurray> doko: I thought I commented on the bug
<slangasek> doko: but you also shouldn't be grabbing things from the rls-bb-incoming queue and committing to them individually, as that's an untriaged incoming queue that anyone can throw bugs into
<doko> or I could merge bash ...
<xnox> juliank, good! please read your journal to figure out if it is gnome-shell spamming it!
<xnox> to me it pukes stacktraces into journal all the time....
<juliank> I had a broken .cache/google-chrome and chrome was logging that multiple times a second :)
<xnox> charming
<slangasek> xnox: is LP: #1662137 still present?  you claimed it a year ago, now someone has tagged it for 18.04
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1662137 in systemd (Ubuntu) "16.04 recovery shell works only for two minutes" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1662137
<juliank> (it's a symlink to /run/user/1000/google-chrome which I create with systemd-tmpfiles)
<xnox> slangasek, we outht to fix that yes....
<slangasek> xnox: ok, claiming/tagging
<xnox> slangasek, i believe this is friendly-recovery vs systemd issue, e.g. friedly-recovery should conflict / pause the emmergency shell; or for example, use the emergency shell things
<slangasek> LP: #1750403 - I think this is already in progress and probably not actually a casper issue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1750403 in casper (Ubuntu) "Live Session - Increased memory usage with preinstalled snap (fails to start with - gnome-session timeout)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1750403
<slangasek> (will punt that for now, so we keep tabs on it)
<slangasek> LP: #1592405 definitely needs fixing; claiming
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1592405 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "plymouth hook in initramfs needs font but doesn't Depend on it" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1592405
<slangasek> LP: #1601997 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1601997 in e2fsprogs (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 16.10+ installer uses ext4 feature 'metadata_csum' which is incompatible with older (LTS) e2fsprogs" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1601997
<xnox> slangasek, my opinion is that there are no actions to take.
<juliank> +1
<slangasek> I agree
<cyphermox> +1
<cyphermox> the only place where this is an issue is dual-boot
<nacc> someone did bring up the idea of an iscsi disk hosted on 16.04 serving out as a target to 18.04
<juliank> I don't see how dual boot is an issue. It's -new- filesystems, not old ones suddenly changing :D
<nacc> the 18.04 would add a filesystem flag that the 16.04 host wouldn't be able to handle
<nacc> dunno if that's a realistic case or not, but it's something i hadn't considered before
<slangasek> nacc: so that falls on its face, and the user remakes the fs with -O -metadata_csum; done?
<xnox> nacc, why would iscsi disk server; touch the exported disks? surely what filesystems client puts on iscsi disk, is none of the iscsi disk server problems...?!
<nacc> slangasek: yes, that's probably true
<nacc> xnox: fair response; I believe NAS-like devices do fs consistency checks periodically, but I might be wrong
<slangasek> it also wouldn't fail an fsck
<nacc> xnox: it was simply a thought that was brought up by a responsive community member
<xnox> nacc, no no no no =) that would be bad
<xnox> sure.
<slangasek> it's not like new e2fsprogs can't understand filesystems made with old options
<cyphermox> I think we all agree it's an "expert" use case, and those who do something affected should know to disable metadata_csum
<juliank> I think you can even r/o mount it on an older _kernel_ release that does not understand metadata_csum, or am I wrong?
<xnox> and 16.04 will get bionic's kernel
<juliank> and that, yes
<xnox> via hwe
<cyphermox> discussed to death yet?
<juliank> but there are people not using hwe :D
<slangasek> I've marked the bug wontfix
<slangasek> LP: #1682637
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1682637 in friendly-recovery (Ubuntu) "during recovery mode, enable network failed due to /etc/resolv.conf not being present" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1682637
<slangasek> xnox probably wants this one too :)
<xnox> sure
<slangasek> ok there are still a few more in the queue but I think that's enough time spent on these for now
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> Nope
<sil2100> Nope
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 15 15:49:54 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-03-15-15.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> Thanks!
<elopio2> wxl, flexiondotorg, elacheche, jose, ahoneybun, marcoceppi: we have a meeting today. I might not have access to my computer on the next 30 minutes, so can one.of you please send an email to the list with a reminder?
<elopio2> also, I will be able to lead only the first 30 minutes, then somebody else will have to do it. I'm running to get my machine ready, sorry.
<elacheche> elopio2: Roger that! :)
<elopio-webchat> nop, my machine is still very unhappy
<elopio-webchat> any takers for leading today?
<elacheche> We'll figure that out elopio-webchat :)
<flexiondotorg> elacheche: I think you agreed to run this one, right? :-)
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: OK
<elopio-webchat> meeting time :)
<elacheche> marcoceppi, jose, wxl, flexiondotorg, ahoneybun and elopio-webchat all here?
<flexiondotorg> o/
<wxl> yep
<elacheche> #startmeeting Community Council meeting, 20180315
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 15 17:04:04 2018 UTC.  The chair is elacheche. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, 20180315 | Current topic:
<elacheche> We start the meeting, in the meanwhile I am sure the marcoceppi and ahoneybun and jose will show up :)
<elacheche> #topic report since last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, 20180315 | Current topic: report since last meeting
<elacheche> Do we have any news about things we discussted last time?
<ahoneybun> I'm around
<elacheche> Hey ahoneybun
<elopio-webchat> I didn't finish my task.
<elopio-webchat> Sorry, lots of things moving here.
<elopio-webchat> But I should be home for next meeting, so I'll take the same action item again, review the CC meetig pages
<elopio-webchat> s/meeting/wiki
<flexiondotorg> elopio-webchat: IS that the actual wiki or wiki posts on the Hub?
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: The actual wiki
<elacheche> I didn't advanced on defining what we use each ressource for, I will send a mail about that so you can help me instead of waiting for having some spare time to talk to you via IRC
<elopio-webchat> flexiondotorg: elacheche made a list of pages on the wiki. We need to review them, and see what can be moved, droped, updated...
<flexiondotorg> Understood. Was just confirming.
<elacheche> #action elacheche will email the list of ressources to discuss/debate the need of each via the ML
<meetingology> ACTION: elacheche will email the list of ressources to discuss/debate the need of each via the ML
<elopio-webchat> oh, the other thing was that I sent an email to the list, mentioning our decision from the last meeting about missing this meeting without an excuse
<elacheche> #action elopio still reviewing the wiki pages
<meetingology> ACTION: elopio still reviewing the wiki pages
<elopio-webchat> we start counting today, looking at the summary posts.
<elacheche> elopio-webchat I confirm we got that :) I hope that everyone noticed that while readingthe email
<elopio-webchat> I think that not attending, and not even reading the summaries makes it twice as bad :D
<elacheche> Do we have other news?
<elopio-webchat> not here
<elacheche> OK, should we move then?
<flexiondotorg> Yep
 * elacheche like to add 2 more subjects later, one about taking decisions (as example the case of the Ubuntu Europe Federation thread), and the other about the news team
<elacheche> I just shar ed that now because I know I will forget it later..
<elopio-webchat> ok
<elacheche> Next topic
<elacheche> #topic Bold bug triaging - issues with contacting a LP user Community Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, 20180315 | Current topic: Bold bug triaging - issues with contacting a LP user Community Council
<elopio-webchat> I sent an email to him/her last week
<elacheche> Let's start by sharing the HUB thread again  â https://community.ubuntu.com/t/bold-bug-triaging-issues-with-contacting-a-lp-user/4334
<wxl> dino99 right?
<elopio-webchat> one week without a reply is more than enough time. So next action for me will be to contact the launchpad team to deactivate the account.
<flexiondotorg> And Mark had this to say: "Yes, I think we can be firm about an expectation of engagement if folks are active."
<wxl> they recently just did another round of their thing
<elacheche> wxl: yes
<elopio-webchat> yes. It could be that the email is wrong, or anything. The idea is that deactivating the account should prompt them to talk to us, and then we figure out if it was a misunderstanding or a CoC violation.
<flexiondotorg> YOu can't properly participate on LP with broken email.
<flexiondotorg> So deactivating for that alone is reasonable.
<elacheche> +1
<elopio-webchat> if they just disappear, then the problem is solved too. If they make another acccount and continue, then it's a clear violations and we follow that other path.
<elacheche> Who'll contact the LP team?
<wxl> i think we should just send this to canonical sysadmin
<wxl> no?
<jose> hmm
<elacheche> Hey jose
<wxl> acting as the community council, they should be able to just follow suit
<jose> LP Owner can deactivate the team
<elacheche> It depends on who's administrating the LP.. a LP team or just canonicals sysadmins
<jose> however, they need proof of the discussion/matter in order to do that
<jose> there is a launchpad owner team in launchpad who has the current launchpad admin
<jose> and we can send them an email if it's a private matter
<elacheche> great then, jose I think the HUB link and the log of this current session can be that proof
<elopio-webchat> I'll take care of finding the right person, contacting them with links, and follow up
<elopio-webchat> and documenting on the hub for future reference.
<elacheche> Sorry elopio-webchat I don't agree with that..
<jose> actually, gimme a sec and I'll give you a link to the team
<elopio-webchat> elacheche: tell me more :)
<elacheche> I think someone else should do the task, we should share the tasks, you already take care of other tasks
<elopio-webchat> ah, I was taking it because I started
<jose> I'm happy to do it, I'm already halfway there anyways
<elopio-webchat> I have no particular interest in doing it myself. Anybody, feel free to take it.
<elacheche> Great! elopio-webchat share what you have with jose :) I don't want any of use to have too much tasks, because we can't blame hime later if there is no progress on multiple tasks :)
<flexiondotorg> Looks like jose has grabbed that action :-)
<elopio-webchat> I have contacted them with no reply. That's what I have. The discussion is on the hub, and the summary of this meeting.
<jose> yep, will share progress when I have it!
<elopio-webchat> jose: just please make sure to make a post on the hub explaining how to deactivate a user.
<elacheche> #action jose will find the good person to deactivate the LP user account, this log can be the proof with the HUB URL
<meetingology> ACTION: jose will find the good person to deactivate the LP user account, this log can be the proof with the HUB URL
<flexiondotorg> And Marks reply on the ML.
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: That was a surprise x)
<elacheche> Do you have any other comments about this topic or should we move to the next one ?
<flexiondotorg> Move on.
<elacheche> #topic Review, triage, and fix Code of Conduct bugs - @wxl
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, 20180315 | Current topic: Review, triage, and fix Code of Conduct bugs - @wxl
<elacheche> ping wxl
<wxl> oh hey sorry :)
<elacheche> No problem, I know you're @work
<wxl> so during GCI i made a task to have students sign and file bugs on the CoC
<wxl> it was actually very successful, even with the fact that many of them were using GPG for the very first time
<wxl> i could probably fix the directions a bit to make it a little bit easier, but that's not my point for this topic
<wxl> the topic is we now have a lot of bugs and we should go through them and see where we can improve the CoC
<wxl> that's not going to be a five minute thing, i don't think
<wxl> so i was going to suggest perhaps we schedule a time to get together expressly for that purpose
<wxl> thoughts?
<elacheche> wxl: I am sorry, can you please explain more the task? Or share a bug link
<flexiondotorg> I don't think all the bugs need to be actioned.
<jose> not actioned, but at least triaged, I'd say
<flexiondotorg> So just need review and explaination as to why we aren't incorporating the changes.
<elopio-webchat> how many bugs?
<wxl> elacheche: the task is irrelevant. what came out of it-- bugs against the CoC-- is what we need to worry about
<wxl> we currently have 23 new bugs
<wxl> i think some of them are actually valid, so saying we're not going to incorporate the change may not be appropriate for all of them
<elacheche> ok
<elacheche> I think we can meet again and triage those together as jose & wxl suggested
<wxl> so do we want to schedule a time now to do that?
<jose> I'd prefer a weekend, but not sure if you can do that
<jose> I'm travelling around the US right now for work, so my schedule is a bit hectic
<wxl> i'm fine with that
<elacheche> Emm.. What about starting a ML thrread about this.. So we don't have to be all online in the same time and we can discuss those
<wxl> i don't love that idea as it will take us much longer
<jose> maybe we can meet up with those who are available, and then send a summary to the ML for commenting, for those who weren't available?
<wxl> that seems reasonable. or we could just all take it upon ourselves to have the discussion within the bug reports themselves
<elacheche> wxl: OK, as you lead the task you pick the time and others will try to join you (remeber we have different TZs ;-) )
<elopio-webchat> yes, except hub instead of mailing list please.
<wxl> if we're just going to make it a non-realtime public chat, let's just do it on the bug reports themselves
<wxl> which means that everyone has an action to go get on that
<elacheche> OK wxl that seems the good choice
<elopio-webchat> +1
<jose> agree
<wxl> there ya go then :)
<elopio-webchat> wxl: can you share the url please?
<elacheche> So, is the action: Triage CoC bugs and discuss them on LP?
<wxl> yep
<wxl> elopio-webchat: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-codeofconduct
<elopio-webchat> thanks
<elacheche> #action ALL CC will Triage CoC bugs and discuss them on LP? â https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-codeofconduct
<meetingology> ACTION: ALL CC will Triage CoC bugs and discuss them on LP? â https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-codeofconduct
<elacheche> Any other thoughts?
<elacheche> We still have 20 min before ending the meeting
<elacheche> We move on then..
<elacheche> #topic Clearly define governance seats, terms, and quorum - @wxl
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, 20180315 | Current topic: Clearly define governance seats, terms, and quorum - @wxl
<elacheche> I think you're talking about the UMB quorum?
<wxl> i mean for all the governance boards, but especially the umb and lc which have faced issues over time of understanding what's what
<wxl> robert's rules don't really help in re: quorum as it's basically like "the maximum number of people you'd expect might show up given the weather" or something ridiculous like that :)
<wxl> is we have x number of seats, we should be able to define y number of people to make quorum
<wxl> but that's the other problem: we don't even knwo what x number of seats is sometimes :)
<elacheche> Afaik, the quorum was always 4 members, I remember that I read it somewhere + some old UMB announced it during meetings when I was joining the meetings before I become a Ubuntu Member, later when I joined the UMB we used that too
<elacheche> I may dig the old wikis again to try to find it (reading some diffs can helo I guess)
<wxl> so that would be 4/10 which is not a majority
<wxl> i've never seen any of that documented anywhere for anyone
<jose> hmm. in general, I'd say quorum for meetings should be 1/2, and for voting 2/3, but that's just me
<elacheche> wxl: Let's don't forget that not all the 10 members  should be present at the same timen that's why the UMB have multiple slots.. not only for candidates, but for board members too
<wxl> so you're saying a majority then, jose?
<jose> yes. but now, the UMB is a special case...
<wxl> elacheche: true. we'd need to define it based on that, i.e. there would have to be a minimum number of folks at each slot
<jose> I remember beforehand there used to be two UMB teams
<wxl> s/at/signed up for/
<jose> one for the 10 and another for the 22 UMBs. then, both teams in a general UMB team for lp admin purposes
<wxl> also i'll add if "4" is the magic number then that means that most of the LC needs to be there: 4/5
<wxl> and for us that's not a majority either: 4/8
<elacheche> wxl: True, when I signed up for the UMB seat I signed up for all the slots, same for multiple others, because we are near the  UTC TZ
<wxl> that might be a good reason to suggest more than one team
<wxl> let's imagine the situation where you leave-- that means both boards are affected, but we might get a replacement that can only do one
<wxl> so then we need to add another person
<wxl> i think it would be better to have two teams but either team can participate in the other one
<elacheche> Just a side note.. I think that I read in one of the meetings (yeeaaaaaaaaaaaars ago, I don't know what/when) that CC members can help if the quorum is not enough, like if the UBM need 1 more person, and there is a CC around he can vote
<elacheche> I am note sure if that's documented somewhere or not too
<wxl> right. and i've seen that happen... and i've seen it not work because they're not around
<wxl> my understanding of it was that the cc as a whole was entitled to one vote
<wxl> so if you were down 2, even with two cc members, that wouldn't get you there
<wxl> but again, this all needs to be defined and most importantly, documented
<elacheche> OK, we should document all that somewhere for future CC
<elopio-webchat> it sounds to me that the first step is to dig out the current rules. Then, figure out if we need to add rules or modify the process entirely.
<flexiondotorg> That ^
<flexiondotorg> Which I was just hunting for.
<wxl> i've never seen the rules but elacheche seems to think he has
<wxl> so maybe next action, elacheche goes hunting?
<elacheche> wxl: I think I saw them in here during some meetings before I become a Ubuntu member, and saw some on the wiki.. That's why digging the wikis will be a good start
<elacheche> OK, I will do that..
<elacheche> #action Get in touch with current and former board members, ask about seats, terms, and quorum, and try to find writen evidence on the Wiki or IRC/MLs logs
<meetingology> ACTION: Get in touch with current and former board members, ask about seats, terms, and quorum, and try to find writen evidence on the Wiki or IRC/MLs logs
<elacheche> #action elacheche will get in touch with current and former board members, ask about seats, terms, and quorum, and try to find writen evidence on the Wiki or IRC/MLs logs
<meetingology> ACTION: elacheche will get in touch with current and former board members, ask about seats, terms, and quorum, and try to find writen evidence on the Wiki or IRC/MLs logs
<elacheche> We're late.. Any other suggestions, or should we move?
<elacheche> Next..
<elacheche> #topic Bootstrap new, official, Ubuntu flavours - @Wimpress aka flexiondotorg
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, 20180315 | Current topic: Bootstrap new, official, Ubuntu flavours - @Wimpress aka flexiondotorg
<flexiondotorg> So, I mentioned this before.
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: can you resume that, and what actions are needed in this stage?
<flexiondotorg> The idea is this, the CC activly engages with desktop environment communities or application communities to encourage them to create an Ubuntu flavour.
<flexiondotorg> Example of a desktop environment community could be Liri.
<flexiondotorg> Example of application community could be Kodi.
<wxl> i like the idea
<wxl> fresh blood is always a nice thing
<flexiondotorg> I'd like to propose that each dev cycle the CC reach out to an agreed number of projects to invite them in.
<wxl> it might be especially good to find projects that don't have packaging or have outdated packaging
<elacheche> I do too.. But we should have some good arguments to convince them to do so
<flexiondotorg> Question is, how many projects (should they all accept) is a managable number for us to steward?
<flexiondotorg> elacheche: Yes, we need material to support this.
<wxl> i think the number should be kept small
<wxl> actually maybe just start with one
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: We probably should get in touch with someone from the technical board as well to help us answer your questions
<wxl> do it as a trial and then decide from there
<wxl> these are not necessarily technical issues, elacheche
<elacheche> OK, your idea seems fair wxl.. We can start with 1
<flexiondotorg> Working with the TB is essential, since they have to approve/deny applications to become a flavour.
<elacheche> We are out of time here.. As there is no other meetings planned for today, we can extend our meeting?
<elacheche> You can check that here â http://ubuntu-news.org/calendars/
<flexiondotorg> So part of our role would be making sure they are ready to apply before contacting the TB.
<wxl> ^^ that's what i meant
<flexiondotorg> I think deciding on a contacting 2 projects per cycle is ample.
<flexiondotorg> And may end promptly if they are not interested.
<flexiondotorg> We have one in flight right now, Ubuntu Unity.
<flexiondotorg> I suppose the first thing to agree, is that we agree this is something we will do.
<flexiondotorg> Do we agree?
<wxl> yes
<flexiondotorg> I think we had consensus last time I proposed this.
<elacheche> YES.. We should work on getting new people involved
 * flexiondotorg waits for others to comment
<ahoneybun> yep
<flexiondotorg> OK, that is enough.
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: So, what's the next action?
<flexiondotorg> Next question, is contacting 2 projects per cycle sufficient?
<elacheche> I think that's enough for a trial as wxl said.. So we can manage that and have a feedback to improve, if we find the good path we can increase that the next cycle.. What do you think
<flexiondotorg> I think if 2 both agree it would generate quite some work and more than 2 would be unmanagable.
<flexiondotorg> I also forsee projects declining, but that fine too. At least we extended and invitation.
<flexiondotorg> So, here is the action I would like to request.
<elopio-webchat> sorry, I agree
<flexiondotorg> Every CC member should find one desktop environment or set top application and add that to a topic I will start in the Hub.
<flexiondotorg> Next meeting we can decide which is those 7 project we contact.
<flexiondotorg> Which 2 of the 7.
<wxl> +1
<flexiondotorg> I wrote up some of the process of becoming a flavour for Ubuntu Unity.
<elacheche> +1
<flexiondotorg> We should use that as a starting point.
 * elacheche can't wait to seem the "Ubuntu AweomeWM" flavor :D :p
<flexiondotorg> Yes, significant Window Managers count as DE :-)
<flexiondotorg> I think we can all find something, and duplication of suggestions is fine.
<wxl> YESS
 * wxl is an awesome user
<wxl> actually there's a couple tiling wayland wms out now........
<elacheche> wxl: AWESOME people uses awesomewm :p
<flexiondotorg> Right, I'll take the action to start to topic.
<flexiondotorg> Everyone else get the action to bring their suggestions.
<elacheche> OK then flexiondotorg
<elacheche> #action flexiondotorg start a HUB thread about Bootstrap new, official, Ubuntu flavours
<meetingology> ACTION: flexiondotorg start a HUB thread about Bootstrap new, official, Ubuntu flavours
<flexiondotorg> wxl: Save it for the Hub :-D
<elacheche> #action ALL CC members suggest a Desktop or and Application then we will vote about 2
<meetingology> ACTION: ALL CC members suggest a Desktop or and Application then we will vote about 2
<elacheche> Any other suggestion, or should we move on?
<flexiondotorg> Move on.
<elacheche> #topic Ubuntu guerrilla marketing campaign - @Wimpress aka flexiondotorg
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting, 20180315 | Current topic: Ubuntu guerrilla marketing campaign - @Wimpress aka flexiondotorg
<flexiondotorg> So, something else I've mentioned before.
<flexiondotorg> I thought this might be something we could steward in the absence of GSoC.
<flexiondotorg> Basic idea is get the LoCos and community making fun, interesting and quality Ubuntu "marketing" material.
<flexiondotorg> Then get the community sharing these "adverts" for Ubuntu in creative ways to reach people's attention who are outside the FOSS bubble.
<elacheche> Good idea.. We can ask the LC to announce it so LoCo contacts can share
<flexiondotorg> This probably needs seeding with some initial examples.
<flexiondotorg> Which would also be made available in such as way that they can be translated.
<flexiondotorg> I'm not so interested in seeing a load of tweets.
<flexiondotorg> I want to see posters, cards in libraries, adverts in shops, banners at sports events.
<flexiondotorg> The French LoCo are really creative in how they "market" Ubuntu.
<flexiondotorg> I'd like to see more LoCos being active in fun, interesting ways.
<flexiondotorg> Release parties are OK, but are rarely attended by new members.
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: The good thing about Ubuntu-fr is that they are a legal association in France (afaik), so they have some financials to do that..
<flexiondotorg> The French LoCo rent a tent a music festivals with Ubuntu flags, computers of pedestals and Ubuntu water applied tatoos.
<elacheche> And they have the legal authority to put posters and banners in public
<elacheche>  agree with the idea.. who have comments?
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: what action do you think is needed for this topic
<wxl> maybe we provide all the materials and info and documentation for locos and offer them funds to make it happen?
<flexiondotorg> I think "materials" is the key things there.
<flexiondotorg> We need to outlines what we are hoping to see, how people can get involved and some example "adverts".
<flexiondotorg> I don't think we can pitch the idea with out some structure.
<flexiondotorg> Perhaps a wiki post on the Hub we can all contribute to?
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: +1 I was about to suggest that too
<flexiondotorg> To outline the idea and things we need.
<flexiondotorg> Action me with that then.
<wxl[m]> Sounds good
<elacheche> #action flexiondotorg start a HUB post to discuss this topic
<meetingology> ACTION: flexiondotorg start a HUB post to discuss this topic
<elacheche> Anything else we should discuss today?
<elacheche> If not we should end the meeting..
<elacheche> in 10..
<elacheche> 9..
<elacheche> 8..
<elacheche> 7..
<elacheche> 6..
<elacheche> 5..
<elacheche> 4..
<elacheche> 3..
<elacheche> 2..
<elacheche> 1..
<elacheche> 0.
<elacheche> Thank you everyone for being here.. I will make sure to send the report link asap and start the action assigned to me asap too.
<elacheche> In the meanwhile, don't hesitate to share progress via IRC, HUB and/or ML.
<elacheche> Have a good night/day for all of you
<wxl> on that subject
<elacheche> Yes!
<wxl> jose: sysadmins say the process for dealingw ith an lp user would be to file an rt with as much info as possible
<jose> sorry, had to jump on a work meeting
<jose> will get back shortly
<wxl[m]> End it
<flexiondotorg> #endmeeting
<wxl> ooh nice delay matrix
<elacheche> OK, we can move to #ubuntu-communitycouncil to discuss this? I think we should free the meeting channel :D We already extended the meeting by 30min :D
<elacheche> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 15 18:33:11 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-03-15-17.04.moin.txt
<flexiondotorg> :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-03-16
<trimaler> Hello
<trimaler> Happy Friday everyone.
<trimaler> tdaitx how r u
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-03-11
<slashd> o/
<tsimonq2> o/
<Eickmeyer> o/
<sil2100> o/
<Rosco2> o/
<tsimonq2> I can't chair today.
<rbasak> o/
<Eickmeyer> hbd tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> Volunteers for chair?
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Huh?
<Eickmeyer> Happy Birthday? Do I have the date wrong?
<tsimonq2> Ah yes, thanks. :)
<Eickmeyer> yw
<tsimonq2> Wasn't familiar with the acronym.
<Eickmeyer> Now you are. :)
<tsimonq2> :)
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 11 15:05:11 2019 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> Hey all; just give me a second to look up the agenda please :)
<cyphermox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<cyphermox> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> Oh, cyphermox took it over, thanks o/
<cyphermox> so; mine is done (recent packageset requests)
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: you had "better document what we expect applicants to know"
<tsimonq2> Mine is not quite done yet, I'll have it done for next meeting.
<cyphermox> ack
<cyphermox> let's get to the meat of this meeting then
<cyphermox> #topic Package Set / Per Package Uploader applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Package Set / Per Package Uploader applications
<cyphermox> Today we look at Rosco2 's and Eickmeyer's applications
<cyphermox> who wants to go first?
<cyphermox> actually
 * Rosco2 nervously puts up hand
<cyphermox> Rosco2: if you're around, you name is up first in the wiki page
<cyphermox> cool :)
<cyphermox> so; link to the application is here:
<cyphermox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RossGammon/PPUApplication
<cyphermox> Rosco2: would you like to tell us a little more about what you're applying for and all?
<Rosco2> Yes
<Rosco2> I have been working on Ubuntu Studio packages for a while
<Rosco2> I would like to have permission to upload these and a few of my Debian packages
<cyphermox> the list as written on your wiki page?
<Rosco2> Mainly ones from the Debian Multimedia Team
<Rosco2> Yes
<Rosco2> Eventually I would like the US package set, but that is a good astart
<cyphermox> ah, I was going to ask about that
<cyphermox> do you have a timeline?
<Rosco2> Not really,
<cyphermox> my understanding is that the Technical Board's requirement for official flavours be that at least one developer has packageset access
<Rosco2> Just want to be able to help out as much as possible
<Rosco2> Then if granted I would be happy with that :-)
<cyphermox> vorlon: ^ perhaps you're interested in this meeting as you've been in these discussions before
<tsimonq2> Could you speak to your recent activity level in Ubuntu?
<sil2100> Well
<sil2100> cyphermox: we already have the same situation for Ubuntu Budgie
<vorlon> cyphermox: yes, hi
<cyphermox> sil2100: yes, I'm aware :/
<sil2100> But I guess it's up to the TB to decide, maybe we should push the budgie guys as well
<cyphermox> I want to avoid derailing the meeting and distracting from an already stressful situation for applicants, maybe we can cover that in AOB?
<Rosco2> tsimonq2, The workload on pure US packages is normally 4/5 uploads per cycle
<sil2100> Sure
<Rosco2> But the team has been much more active this cycle
<tsimonq2> Rosco2: How many uploads have you personally driven for Cosmic and Disco?
<Rosco2> So there has been a lot more to review and test
<Rosco2> Just counting
<Rosco2> 6?
<Eickmeyer> The total packages should be 8 including 2 new.
<Rosco2> Quite a few more have been tidyups after reviewing Erich's ^& Lens work in the team
<Rosco2> Erich, 2 cycles includes more :-)
<Eickmeyer> Ah, yes.
<tsimonq2> I understand those were also driven by others, my point is to gauge your personal involvement with those uploads.
<Rosco2> Well - mainly reviewing the package to get it ready for upload.
<Rosco2> Committing changes (lintian etc) and triaging bugs that might be fixable at the same time
<rbasak> When you're done, I have questions please
<Rosco2> tsimonq2, more?
<tsimonq2> I'm satisfied, thabks.
<rbasak> Rosco2: how familiar would you say you are with respect to Ubuntu-specific development processes that don't apply to Debian?
<Rosco2> T think I have tackled most of the possible types of uploads in Ubuntu
<Rosco2> Mainly merges & syncs in the development release
<rbasak> Do you know where to look to find the freeze timetable, documentation on when you may upload what, and how to get an exception?
<Rosco2> I have done an SRU or 3, but there hasn't been a US package needing one recently
<Rosco2> Yes - for a while I was the Test Manager / Release Manager in US, and was sending regular reminders to the team
<Rosco2> We followed the FFE procedure last week with the 2 new packages
<rbasak> Do you know about proposed migration?
<rbasak> (in Ubuntu)
<Rosco2> Yes
 * sil2100 has a question as well
<sil2100> (related)
<Rosco2> Lmms had some problems migrating
<rbasak> OK, I'm done with quesetions - thanks!
<Rosco2> Failed to build on one architecture, then was stuck due to libc transition
<rbasak> (but don't let me stop you expanding - that's useful to hear)
<Rosco2> I normally check my Debian packages have moved out of proposed and try and help using execuse.tx and the new tool in archive-tools
<sil2100> Rosco2: so a follow up question to the one by rbasak: from the upload miner I see you had 3 SRUs in the past, but none of them seem to be 'well prepared' from the SRU POV - if you would have to prepare an SRU to a stable series for one of the US packages, what steps would you need to perform?
<Rosco2> Well step 1 - reread the wiki :-)
<sil2100> Which page would that be? ;)
<Rosco2> From memory it needs to be tested, the bug description contain the test case
<rbasak> Are those upload miner entries correctly categorized? They don't look like SRUs to me.
<Rosco2> and justification (targeted changes) and discussion of regression risk
<Rosco2> Then there is normally a requirmeent for verification of the fix before it is released
<Rosco2> rbasak, As I said. It has been a while - I can't actually remebr which was a real SRU
<acheronuk> rbasak: udd.debian.org? it wrongly categorises some of my uploads :/
<Rosco2> But I do remember doing it at least once or following along in the process.
<sil2100> rbasak: indeed, the dates do not match
<sil2100> Rosco2: thanks!
 * sil2100 has no more questions
<rbasak> If everyone's done, ready for voting?
<rbasak> cyphermox?
<cyphermox> sorry, yeah, no questions from me
<cyphermox> let's deal with these separately; first the PPU for debian packages maintained
<cyphermox> (and look at my bad grammar)
<cyphermox> #vote Rosco2 PPU for the packages he maintains in Debian
<meetingology> Please vote on: Rosco2 PPU for the packages he maintains in Debian
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> jbicha sent a +1 as well.
<cyphermox> slashd: ?
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<rbasak> tsimonq2?
<cyphermox> I think this is clearly a successful application anyway.
<tsimonq2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> :)
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Rosco2 PPU for the packages he maintains in Debian
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> that's a motion carried indeed.
<sil2100> Now for the US ones?
<cyphermox> ok; second thing to vote for: PPU for the ubuntustudio-* packages and carla, grub2-theme-ubuntustudio
<vorlon> point of order, please
<rbasak> Technically we can't grant carla yet
<cyphermox> vorlon: yes?
<vorlon> I understand the application was for the list of individually named packages
<cyphermox> yes
<vorlon> and I understand there are more packages than that in the ubuntustudio packageset
<cyphermox> yep
<sil2100> Yes
<vorlon> is the DMB intending to only vote on PPU for the individually named packages, because that is what Rosco2 asked for?
<cyphermox> I am aware of that, mentioned it earlier -- my plan, if people agree, would be to first vote for the stuff as it is in his wiki application, and then separately vote for the packageset request despite it not being on the request
<vorlon> ok
<sil2100> hm, ok
<vorlon> that sounds fine, I just wasn't sure the latter was also on the agenda, carry on thanks :)
<cyphermox> that way if PPU are an easy motion carried, we don't avoid going over it discussing other things.
<cyphermox> sil2100: rbasak: slashd: objections?
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: ^
<tsimonq2> Not from me.
<slashd> no objections
<rbasak> I think that's a good plan.
<cyphermox> I'm free for a little while meetingwise; so we could either immediately vote for packageset after or defer until after we've also looked at Erich's application (as per the agenda)
<sil2100> No objections
<Rosco2> I am Ok with waiting - I am sure Erich is gewtting impatient :-)
<cyphermox> #vote rosco2 to gain PPU rights to carla (when NEW processed), grub2-theme-ubuntustudio, and ubuntustudio-* packages listed in his wiki page
<meetingology> Please vote on: rosco2 to gain PPU rights to carla (when NEW processed), grub2-theme-ubuntustudio, and ubuntustudio-* packages listed in his wiki page
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> However we won't get a proxy vote from jbicha since he's absent and we can't consider him to be able to send a vote in advance for motions not planned in advance.
<cyphermox> rbasak: I understand
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> (again, jbicha sent a +1)
<tsimonq2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tsimonq2
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: rosco2 to gain PPU rights to carla (when NEW processed), grub2-theme-ubuntustudio, and ubuntustudio-* packages listed in his wiki page
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> congrats Rosco2
<Rosco2> Thanks very much everyone
<rbasak> I know Eickmeyer's waiting.
<Rosco2> ANd thanks for all the sponsorship upto now
<cyphermox> please stay around; let's review Eickmeyer's application right away :)
<rbasak> But I think Rosco2's packageset vote might eliminate the current need for urgency
<Eickmeyer> I'm here.
<cyphermox> let me take an action to set up the accesses
<Eickmeyer> I agree with rbasak.
<cyphermox> #action cyphermox to give PPU rights to rosco2
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to give PPU rights to rosco2
<tsimonq2> To be clear, my +0s are due to not enough recent activity level in my opinion.
<cyphermox> Eickmeyer: so; your application is here:
<tsimonq2> Otherwise I'm satisfied with Rosco2's packaging skills.
<cyphermox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Eickmeyer/PPUApplication
<rbasak> cyphermox: I think Eickmeyer wants to defer to Rosco2's third vote first?
<cyphermox> oh, is that so?
<cyphermox> sorry I misread
<cyphermox> okay then;
<Eickmeyer> Yes. That's the more urgent matter. AFAIK, the TB needs one person on the team to have the package set, correct?
<rbasak> I'm not sure how well defined the requirement is against the packageset specifically, but being able to upload the packageset will surely resolve the TB's concern.
<cyphermox> #vote to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the ubuntustudio packageset
<meetingology> Please vote on: to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the ubuntustudio packageset
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<tsimonq2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tsimonq2
<cyphermox> rbasak: only being able to upload themed packages is not super useful tbh
<tsimonq2> Same reasons as stated.
<rbasak> For reference, here is the current packageset: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/disco/ubuntustudio
<rbasak> However the vote is for the packageset including all future changes to it.
<Rosco2> Yes - the package set is way out of date ATM
<rbasak> I'm not sure debian-archive-keyring should be in there for example.
<rbasak> That seems really wrong.
<rbasak> But I think fixing that is independent of Rosco2 being able to upload to the list.
<sil2100> So, I know we didn't want to touch this topic here right now but it might affect my vote
<cyphermox> +1; I see evidence of good work on packageing; the applicant is already a Debian Developer, etc. No issues.
<meetingology> +1; I see evidence of good work on packageing; the applicant is already a Debian Developer, etc. No issues. received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> rbasak: debian-archive-keyring is certainly depended on by something to make it in the packageset
<sil2100> vorlon: from the TB POV, for ubuntu-studio to still stay as a recognized supported flavor, do they need to have people with upload rights to the whole packageset?
<rbasak> cyphermox: sure, that's probably how it's brought in, but it's wrong and the automatic generation should blacklist it IMHO.
<vorlon> sil2100: from my perspective, it needs to be "the whole packageset" as an abstraction, but I agree that the current packageset contents look odd
<cyphermox> rbasak: (it's via apt-offline, which is a direct recommend)
<tsimonq2> Ubuntu Studio's flavor status should not affect our vote on an independent applicant's application.
<vorlon> sil2100: i.e.: I'd be looking for the TB to sign off that there is an uploader trusted to upload all the packages that need to be maintained for the ubuntustudio flavor to be successful
<cyphermox> rbasak: I disagree. Seed might want to handle the package slightly differently, but I definitely don't see this as a blocker
<vorlon> and the details of what's actually in that packageset can be refined
<rbasak> cyphermox: not a blocker for this vote, but we (the DMB) should fix it.
<cyphermox> *no*
<cyphermox> ubuntustudio should fix their seed.
<Rosco2> An upload of us-meta is pending. Will look into it
<cyphermox> Rosco2: it's a bit more involved than uploading us-meta, but I can help you with this
<Rosco2> Thnks
<rbasak> vorlon: what would your (TB hat) view be on packages like gimp? Do you think the flavor developer should be able to upload that?
<rbasak> (as a requirement)
<cyphermox> err, why did you pick gimp in particular as your example?
<rbasak> Because it's very not-flavor-specific.
<cyphermox> ubuntustudio is a flavour that is meant to let people to artsy stuff
<rbasak> (but clearly important to the flavor)
<vorlon> rbasak: it doesn't match my understanding of how it's meant to work for a common package like gimp to be something we grant upload rights on for a community flavor given that it should already be well-maintained as part of flavors in main
<rbasak> I concur
<vorlon> rbasak: however, I also think that's something that can be mediated between the flavors in case of conflict and I don't care much if that mediation takes place through the packagesets or in person-to-person discussions
<Rosco2> There are also kubuntu packages that we tend to leave to kubuntu unless they need help
<cyphermox> in main?
<rbasak> But I'm not sure that cyphermox does, for what this packageset should include.
<vorlon> /except/ that if there are particular packages in the packageset whose presence gives the DMB pause in +1ing, in which case we should deal with that with priority ;)
<rbasak> I am experiencing pause for this reason.
<rbasak> I am confident to +1 Rosco2 for packages in universe not maintained as part of any other flavor
<rbasak> I'm not sure if that currently means I'm a +1 for the packageset or not.
<vorlon> right, in my mind the ideal is that "Rosco2 should be trusted as an US uploader" should be severable from "US uploaders should be able to upload package $foo that is shared with other flavors"
<sil2100> It's a pretty huge packageset, which is why I asked the question of US maintenance requirement
<cyphermox> I'm not sure everyone is on the same page as how flavour packagesets work.
<rbasak> cyphermox: agreed
<tsimonq2> ^
<rbasak> In my view, flavour packageset automatic generation is secondary to what we intend them to be, and where there's a mismatch, we whitelist/blacklist packages to make it so.
<rbasak> AFAICT (please correct me if I'm wrong), cyphermox sees it the other way round?
<cyphermox> these are not random lists of packages; they are an output of the seed going through germinate. Some of the packages are directly listed in the seeds, others are recommends and whatnot; and there already is some amounts of set generation that ensures common packages land expliclity in core
<tsimonq2> What's the advantage to blacklisting packages if other flavor packagesets can upload to it?
<cyphermox> my point is we should not blacklist or whitelist things
<rbasak> So why isn't gimp in core?
<tsimonq2> +1 cyphermox
<meetingology> +1 cyphermox received from tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> wait
<tsimonq2> no
<tsimonq2> XD
<cyphermox> because it's not in any other flavour
<cyphermox> ok, I stand correctly
<cyphermox> *corrected
<tsimonq2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tsimonq2
<cyphermox> it's also in xubuntu
<tsimonq2> there
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: yup
<cyphermox> let me kill that off, we'll start over
<cyphermox> #envote
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the ubuntustudio packageset
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> Oh, sorry. I had assumed it was in main.
<cyphermox> ^disregard
<cyphermox> rbasak: that's precisely the problem with reviewing packagesets like these
<cyphermox> we get to recognize some packages and think they ought to be in main or elsewhere.
<cyphermox> anything that would be in main and shared would end up in core; anything else is currently free game; and I for one agree with teh current state of things
<cyphermox> we're all adults and presumably able to handle conflicts and exercise judgement as to whether what we upload is sane and okay for other users of the packages
<rbasak> I have too many memories of packageset conflicts doing unexpected things. In particular with the server seed.
<rbasak> cyphermox: by that logic the only upload status should be core dev.
<tsimonq2> rbasak: Do you have an example?
<cyphermox> rbasak: what?
<rbasak> tsimonq2: of packageset conflicts doing unexpected things? Let's not digress.
<cyphermox> rbasak: precisely not: what I'm saying is if xubuntu and ubuntustudio have gimp in their packagesets, they're all old enough to know how to not upload things that will break stuff for one another.
<cyphermox> ie. what we expect of an developer by way of the CoC
<rbasak> cyphermox: sure, but that's not a reason to eliminate the question of whether a packageset has too wide covefrage.
<tsimonq2> rbasak: It'll add to the general argument for whitelisting/blacklisting packagesm
<rbasak> coverage
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: we can discuss further elsewhere, I think I know exactly what rbasak is talking about,and it's vastly different than Packageset upload rights
<tsimonq2> s/packagesm/packages./
<tsimonq2> Alright, sounds good.
<cyphermox> rbasak: we ask that question (too wide coverage) when we review the packageset update report.
<cyphermox> I mean, I understand the question, but I have no issue with the packageset as it currently is
<rbasak> I'm comfortable with a +1 to Rosco2 for narrow coverage.
<rbasak> I'm not currently comfortable with giving Rosco2 wide coverage, because of his relatively little involvement recently.
<cyphermox> are we all ready to vote?
<rbasak> So in deciding whether to +1 the packageset, I need to know what the packageset is intended to cover.
<cyphermox> or do we need to further discuss this?
<Eickmeyer> Really, the only thing that Ubuntu Studio really touches are the ubuntustudio-* packages and Carla at present time. Everything else is pretty much upstream.
<Eickmeyer> I understand the concern, but I'm hoping we get the benefit of the doubt.
<rbasak> Where does everyone else stand currently?
<tsimonq2> I'm still at +0.
<slashd> rbasak, I'm with you w/ narrow coverage
<rbasak> Or sure, run the vote and we can find out if you prefer.
<vorlon> Eickmeyer: ("pretty much upstream" - yes, but if you need to fix something for a release or in SRU, you can't rely on the Debian maintainers to fix it)
<cyphermox> #vote to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the ubuntustudio packageset (take 2)
<meetingology> Please vote on: to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the ubuntustudio packageset (take 2)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Eickmeyer> vorlon: I understand.
<rbasak> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from rbasak
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<slashd> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from slashd
<tsimonq2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tsimonq2
<vorlon> fwiw I see packages listed in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/disco/ubuntustudio that definitely *are* in main (gnome-software, langpacks) so I'm not sure how that squares with cyphermox's comments about "everything common is in core"
<sil2100> I'm still not entirely sure about my vote here
<cyphermox> vorlon: I simplified it quite a bit; the exact code is at https://code.launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+junk/packageset
<cyphermox> sure, there can be improvements; but I don't see it as wrong per se.
<rbasak> I feel that we're stuck on a technicality, but in general our sentiment does actually resolve the TB's concern.
<sil2100> I have some conflicting feelings: on one hand I suppose flavor maintainers *should* have upload rights to all of the components in their packageset, but the current packageset is quite big and I suppose it'll be like that because of what ubuntustudio actually is
<cyphermox> sil2100: so +0?
<rbasak> What if we passed a motion agreeing that Rosco2 can upload, more narrowly, ubuntustudio-specific fixes that aren't covered by an existing flavor?
<rbasak> That would resolve the TB's concern I think.
<sil2100> Like, US will always have a lot of apps and packages in the packageset as the images come pre-installed with many many tools
<rbasak> And we could grant PPU as needed, which sounds unlikely anyway.
<cyphermox> rbasak: that would require a specific list of packages
<rbasak> We could agree to leave that at one DMB member's discretion.
<cyphermox> in that sense, why not bring up by ourselves a list of the packages we feel *shouldn't* be in the pacakgeset and address that?
<rbasak> Feels like a lot of unnecessary work for something that seems unlikely to be needed.
<cyphermox> I don't follow
<cyphermox> you will eventually have uploaders for the ubutnustudio pacakgeset
<rbasak> We'd need to find consensus on that list and that'll take considerable time.
<cyphermox> and if you feel ubuntustudio is wrong; then you should also look at xubuntu, lubuntu, etc.
<rbasak> Instead, if we all trust each other to be agreed on what "narrow" means, then we could just leave it at that, and approve PPU for those things using only one DMB member, like we do for existing DD uploaders.
<vorlon> otoh, having to round-trip to (a member of) the DMB for each package a US developer needs to upload is onerous, and scarcely better than going through the sponsorship queue
<rbasak> I'm just proposing a way forward to resolve this quickly.
<cyphermox> his current PPU request will already cover 90%
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the ubuntustudio packageset (take 2)
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:3
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> meetingology: that's not a motion carried.
<vorlon> :)
<rbasak> Much quicker than going through the sponsorship queue IMHO, as a review would be unnecessary. Sponsorship in this case would be merely agreeing the PPU in principle, rather than having to round trip the TB, instead of actually having to review.
<cyphermox> sil2100: I considered you a +0 fwiw; being unsure.
<cyphermox> can we move on to Erich's application?
<vorlon> i.e. if it's not maintainable as a packageset, then there's a round trip for each package that has to be added to PPU, at exactly the time when this would cause friction for development
<rbasak> cyphermox: I think we should find a way forward for Rosco2 first as the urgent matter.
<rbasak> I believe that's what Eickmeyer wants too?
<sil2100> cyphermox: too bad this was introduced into the agenda so late, since I was actually starting on leaning towards +1'ing
<sil2100> But well
<cyphermox> did we not already arrive at a resolution, given that he already has access to ubuntustudio-* as per earlier votes?
<Eickmeyer> Yes. We need something that will satisfy the TB's requirement, otherwise 19.04 will likely get denied.
<rbasak> I am assuming that, given the reasons the last motion didn't carry, an equivalent motion for Eickmeyer also won't carry.
<rbasak> So we should spend our time trying to resolve the current flavor situation as requested by the TB as a priority
<Rosco2> I can be back at the next meeting with a defined package set?
<vorlon> can I ask what the point of a packageset is that the DMB doesn't think anyone should be granted upload rights to?  My understanding of packagesets is that they exist purely as objects to attach permissions to
<cyphermox> vorlon: +1
<rbasak> I don't think "anyone should be" is fair here.
<rbasak> This is a special case. In the usual case there would be an established set of developers already able to upload the packageset.
<rbasak> And we would only be considering whether somebody should be added to that set.
<vorlon> so unless the DMB's intent is to say that US is not releasable because there are no developers qualified to have upload rights on the packageset, IMHO far better to change the contents of the packageset to match what you think the US devs should be uploading
<rbasak> Sure
<rbasak> How should we resolve that list?
<rbasak> The TB has some idea since that set must be sufficient to meet their requiremnts.
<Laney> Is this the DMB challenging the concept of flavour packagesets as has existed up until now, or the particular (apparently) buggy entries in ubuntustudio?
<rbasak> I'm not sure we have any idea right now, tbh.
<rbasak> We seem to differ on what a packageset even means.
<vorlon> rbasak: speaking as a single member of the TB, I think a packageset that is the disjunction of the contents of the US image, and all other flavor images, is sufficient for the requirement
<sil2100> cyphermox: anyway, for the last vote count me as a +1 actually
<cyphermox> sil2100: thanks.
<vorlon> (but also, as noted above, the current packageset definitely looks buggy wrt including packages from main)
<sil2100> Anyway, seeing the results of the vote, the motion can still pass by votes of absent members
<rbasak> OK, so there are two paths forward right now that I can see.
<rbasak> I'm +1 to give Rosco2 upload to the set that vorlon defines above. If others agree, then that is a path to resolving the current issue.
<rbasak> Or, we can wait to see if the absent members will pass the previous motion.
<cyphermox> I think first and foremost people who are in disagreement with the contents of the packageset as it currently is should have a look at the packageset update script and propose fixes; or agree to give upload rights as it is with the modulo that the contents will change a bit after a review.
<rbasak> I don't agree. You're the one trying to pass a motion with a broken packageset.
<rbasak> (and ill-defined proposed correctoins to that packageset)
<Laney> The bugs pointed out are likely because the script isn't handling the desktop-minimal seed, FWIW
<Laney> seed*s*
<cyphermox> possibly
<cyphermox> rbasak: it's fine not to agree, I'm trying to point out that I'm not sure that's a way forward. your "set vorlon defines above" doesn't currently exist and isn't all that better defined.
<rbasak> What if we just created a secondary manual packageset so we don't need to fix the script to resolve the current situation?
<cyphermox> rbasak: what would be the contents of it?
<Laney> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/mWwQFjzPQ3/
<Laney> With that, gnome-software ends up in ubuntu-desktop
<rbasak> If that fixes it, then great, thanks :)
<cyphermox> Laney: solid.
<cyphermox> that does sound like it would fix it.
<Laney> Of course you might want to make the real patch use globs or something
<cyphermox> yup yup
<cyphermox> I'll take care of that
<cyphermox> #action cyphermox to fix the packageset-report script
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to fix the packageset-report script
<rbasak> By "fix", do you mean that the packageset will be intended to meet vorlon's definition above?
<cyphermox> rbasak: let me answer you a different way
<rbasak> (because if so, then +1 to grant Rosco2 to that set - no need to block on that)
<rbasak> My issue is with how we define the packageset, rather than what it's implementation (and/or bugs) happen to be right now.
<cyphermox> can we have a vote on granting Rosco2  packageset rights conditional on my fixing the script to everyone's satisfaction?
 * Eickmeyer is going mobile
<rbasak> cyphermox: depends on how you/we define "fixed"
<cyphermox> ie; we all mostly agree on the view behind the packageset, I'll fix the script, then we can review the packageset contents to make sure everyone's fine with it's new contents, and then grant access?
<cyphermox> oh ffs
<rbasak> I'm not trying to be difficult!
<rbasak> When we grant upload to a packageset, we also grant upload to all future versions of that packageset too.
<cyphermox> yes, I am well aware of that
<rbasak> What matters is what we _mean_ by allowing a packageset, not its current contents.
<rbasak> What I want to resolve is what we _mean_ right now.
<vorlon> cyphermox: there are two definitions of "fix" here.  One is fixing it to not be pulling in things that are supposed to be in core; the other is that plus not pulling in things that are in other flavor packagesets
<rbasak> I don't care about when its implemented, and if there's a delay in implementation, I don't care, because I assume good faith.
<cyphermox> vorlon: disagree here.
<Laney> It's not exactly what vorlon said. It's { ubuntustudio } - { ubuntu U ubuntu-server U kubuntu }
<vorlon> and it sounds to me like there's not consensus about which of these two fixes suffices for the DMB to grant rights
<cyphermox> I think for example, display manager bits are absolutely fine to be in the flavours that make use of them
<Laney> sorry, couldn't be bothered to find the right union symbol
<cyphermox> Laney: yes
<cyphermox> that I fully agree with
<vorlon> cyphermox: yes, that you subscribe to *one* of these definitions of "fix" doesn't mean there aren't two definitions the DMB has to decide between
<cyphermox> and tbh, you fix will likely do exactly that.
<cyphermox> vorlon: fair enough
<cyphermox> vote on this then?
<rbasak> In the general case I don't object to cyphermox's definition either.
<cyphermox> let's try the following proposition
<rbasak> Just that in this particular case, I'm not confident in +1'ing right now. I expect that will change in the future after Rosco2 is more active.
<cyphermox> "on flavour packagesets to be explicilty defined as { ubuntustudio } - { ubuntu U  ubuntu-server U kubuntu }
<cyphermox> is that acceptable enough for people to vote on?
<cyphermox> well
<cyphermox> argh
<cyphermox> "on flavour packagesets to be explicilty defined as { $flavour_seed } - { ubuntu U  ubuntu-server U kubuntu }
<vorlon> (and fwiw with my earlier comment I'm only saying that { ubuntustudio } - { all other flavors } is the MINIMUM that meets my standard; I have no opinion on whether I think that's how the DMB should define the set)
<cyphermox> vorlon: it's okay
<rbasak> cyphermox: well I was going for { ubuntustudio } - { all other flavors }
<rbasak> cyphermox: for Rosco2 right now, rather than necessarily redefining the ubuntustudio packageset.
<cyphermox> what about what I mentioned earlier?
<cyphermox> what happens for seeds that share a dm?
<rbasak> I'm not trying to solve the general case here.
<rbasak> Just Rosco2 for right now.
<cyphermox> typically they are free to maintain it; everyone has their upload rights
<rbasak> As a stop gap to help the flavour outl
<rbasak> out
<rbasak> The plan being that the need for this will go away as soon as Rosco2 is given further rights in the future
<sil2100> We can vote for that indeed
<cyphermox> if you want to create that manual set, feel free.
<cyphermox> can somebody else chair from now on please?
<rbasak> Look, I'm just one person trying to find a way forward.
<cyphermox> I understand that
<cyphermox> but I can't follow the meeting, so I'm asking for help
<rbasak> AFAICT, nobody objects to what I'm proposing.
<sil2100> Ok, I can pick it up
<Laney> It would be possible to restructure the script to implement that concept. Make ~flavour-dev teams have upload rights to <flavours-common> and <flavour>, and then you can grant upload rights to <flavour> indpendently of ~flavour-dev membership.
<rbasak> Except that you don't like it in the general case.
<cyphermox> #chair sil2100
<meetingology> Current chairs: cyphermox sil2100
<sil2100> cyphermox: o/
<sil2100> Ok everyone, this meeting is long overdue already
<rbasak> Thanks sil2100, and cyphermox for bearing with it thus far.
<slashd> I'm still there too, keeping an eye on the discussion.
<sil2100> I'm personally fine myself with granting Rosco2 upload rights to the packageset as per previous definition (although it seemed to have a bit more packages than needed), but I suppose we could vote for the 'smaller set' now
<cyphermox> Laney: sure, but I don't see why suddently packagesets can't remain what they have always been; and we can't just fix the obvious current bug vs. ubuntu/desktop-minimal
<Laney> Vote on both things and see what passes?
<rbasak> I think perhaps we should disentangle what we want Rosco2 to be able to upload with technical implementation.
<sil2100> Should we start a vote?
<cyphermox> sil2100: "previous definition" is too vague
<Laney> ("Fix the script" needs to happen regardless)
<cyphermox> rbasak: I don't think we should. if we can just immediately fix the packageset, why should we not just do that and give rosco2 upload rights to it (if we think he should) and be done with it
<sil2100> #vote to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the packageset of { ubuntustudio } - { other flavors }
<meetingology> Please vote on: to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the packageset of { ubuntustudio } - { other flavors }
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<tsimonq2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tsimonq2
<cyphermox> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from cyphermox
<rbasak> cyphermox: we tried that and the motion didn't pass!
<cyphermox> rbasak: that wasn't my understanding
<cyphermox> we tried { give access to the packageset }
<rbasak> cyphermox: OK so now you're voting not give Rosco2 upload to a subset, but are +1 on the superset? How is that productive?
<cyphermox> this needs an explanation
<cyphermox> I'm -1 because I disagree with teh definition of that packageset.
<cyphermox> it's vastly different than others, it's not fair for Rosco2 or other applicants.
<cyphermox> if we redefine what a flavour packageset is, we should make it on the general case.
<sil2100> So personally, completely personally (and this can be *wrong*), I currently don't really care what's in the packageset currently
<rbasak> We grant PPU to people, which is vastly different from flavor packagesets, but we consider that acceptable.
<sil2100> I want to *assume* that the packageset has all the right packages for the existance of a flavor, as per vorlon's and the TB's POV
<cyphermox> sil2100: I wholeheartedly agree. It's not *perfect* but packagesets have had small bugs from time to time and we can fix this out of band
<rbasak> cyphermox: I think you misunderstand my view at the moment.
<rbasak> Let me to make it clear.
<cyphermox> rbasak: however PPUs are based on discreet lists of packages, not abstract sets
<sil2100> WHich is why I voted previously +1 on he 'previous definition' because I think Rosco2 should have access to all packages needed by Ubuntu Studio - right now it might be a too big of a set, sure, but I want him to have upload rights to the right set
<cyphermox> we've already had to turn people away because they didn't have a list.
<sil2100> And to me those are two different things that I *personally* want to keep separate
<rbasak> The reason I am unwilling to grant the packageset, like other flavors, is that I don't think I've seen evidence of involvement at the same level as our usual norms in this particular case.
<cyphermox> sil2100: +1
<sil2100> rbasak: that is a valid concern, yes
<rbasak> However, I am willing to grant a subset, distinct from the packageset, for now, as a stop gap to help the flavor.
<cyphermox> rbasak: then perhaps we should process the request as any other PPU request and review a discreet list rather than voting on the abstract
 * Eickmeyer is no longer mobile
<sil2100> rbasak: I also had the same concern but in the end I leaned towards thinking that Rosco2 has demonstrated enough to maintain studio
<sil2100> rbasak: but what I'm trying to say is: I understand your concern, yes
<rbasak> cyphermox: I'm quite happy to vote on the abstract, just as you do on abstract packagesets which is the norm.
<rbasak> cyphermox: if you're unwilling to vote on the abstract, then sure, generate the list and we can vote on that.
<rbasak> cyphermox: it just feels like extra hassle though. We can vote on abstract packagesets. Why not on a well defined subset of such a thing?
<cyphermox> rbasak: abstract packageset which is the norm? sorry I don't understand what you mean?
<cyphermox> when you are reviewing request for a packageset, you know what the packageset contains
<rbasak> you don't, because there are bugs
<rbasak> and the packageset changes
<cyphermox> yes, bugs are fixable
<cyphermox> and there will be other bugs
<rbasak> You know what it _currently_ contains, but that isn't the same as what you're agreeing to
<cyphermox> any changes are reviewed by the DMB
<cyphermox> and if we see things we don't agree with, we can always defer updating the packagesets until we've resolved the situation
<cyphermox> ergo; I always know what is in a pacakgeset, or what is about to be.
<vorlon> I also don't think voting on a list of packages is an adequate compromise, because it's static and not guaranteed to give Rosco2 what he needs to maintain the image over time
<cyphermox> and sure, there may be bugs in; but I also know what applicants won't immediately upload everything in the packageset 100 times a second
<rbasak> The motion above is still open.
<cyphermox> my overarching point is: bugs are fixable, and we shouldn't block an application because there is a bug
<sil2100> We're in a bit of a pickle here hen
<rbasak> Is it just cyphermox who disagrees?
<rbasak> sil2100, slashd?
<vorlon> which is why I asked w/ TB hat for a vote on the packageset, and gave a minimum definition of a packageset that I think would satisfy the requirement
<cyphermox> we can say: oh look, we're generally okay, but this here is going to change
<cyphermox> vorlon: I'm happy you did
<cyphermox> I disagreed on the exact definition, but you did say it was a minimum?
<rbasak> cyphermox: I'm not blocking the application on any current bug.
<rbasak> If you think I am, please re-read my position above.
<rbasak> It feels to me that you're blocking the current motion on an implementation detail.
<cyphermox> sil2100: you want to close the vote? I'm not going to change mine.
<slashd> rbasak, if we vote for Rosco2, I'm +1 to unblock him, but I totally understand rbasak's concern
<cyphermox> or make sure everyone who should had voted.
<sil2100> Ok, so I can vote +1 on the current one
<sil2100> But of course personally I'd prefer the previous one to pass instead
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<sil2100> I treat the current vote as a 'fallback' to get things moving
<sil2100> But actually
<sil2100> This will not get us moving
<sil2100> Since this one won't pass today as well
<cyphermox> that's why I was saying that we should tentatively say it's ok or not, based on the seed-generated pacakgeset, provided it is fixed to everyone's satisfaction; at least to solve the obvious bugs in
<cyphermox> perhaps it would be best to table this particular part and go on to vote for Eickmeyer's PPU?
<rbasak> cyphermox: no, I still don't think you understand my position if you believe that your proposal will work.
<sil2100> +1 (but I prefer the previous vote to pass)
<meetingology> +1 (but I prefer the previous vote to pass) received from sil2100
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: to grant Rosco2 upload rights to the packageset of { ubuntustudio } - { other flavors }
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> Motion is not carried yet ^
<sil2100> Anyway, I think we won't solve this today
<sil2100> vorlon: ^ as you can see this is a very heated discussion, can we get an 'extension' for dealing with teh ubuntustudio situation?
<sil2100> Possibly till the nearest DMB meeting
<cyphermox> we still have two meetings
<cyphermox> (before release)
<cyphermox> wait, was it two?
<sil2100> Yes
<rbasak> I don't think my position is worth blocking Ubuntu Studio over.
<cyphermox> personally I think that's plenty to resolve the situation
<sil2100> I think the next action is to actually inform the absent DMB members of the current situation and the current votes open
<vorlon> sil2100: I would like to see this resolved before beta; I don't know how those dates line up
<sil2100> e.g. the vote for granting Rosco2 upload rights for the ubuntustudio packageset
<vorlon> beta is March 28, when is next DMB meeting?
<rbasak> So I'll switch my vote to +1 to give Rosco2 to the full packageset.
<sil2100> vorlon: 25th
<rbasak> If that changes anything.
<sil2100> So we should be good
<Eickmeyer> 25th is also beta freeze.
<cyphermox> rbasak: I wouldn't want you to change your vote because I disagree with the other option
<sil2100> rbasak: I think we still miss 1 +1 in that case, so we'd have to reach out to absent members
<sil2100> Let's sort this out till next meeting
<sil2100> Not much we can do now since we're still missing one +1
<cyphermox> I think we'll be just fine to sort it out completely before next meeting
<sil2100> +1
<slashd> sil2100, I'm okay to give +1 based on my belief for rosco2 to do a good job
<sil2100> It was a very long and heated meeting
<sil2100> hmmm
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> Ok, so I could propose re-opening the previous vote, but what I would not want is for people to change their votes just for the sake of getting things moving
<cyphermox> can we move forward instead and continue over email?
<sil2100> Like, I would like every DMB member to vote for what they think is correct, always
<cyphermox> sil2100: +1
<sil2100> Let's move on as cyphermox proposes, we can deal with this later or through e-mail
<sil2100> Ok
<slashd> sound good to me
<cyphermox> you know how much I dislike the email threads for voting; but I would like for Erich's to have his PPU even if he can't have packageset yet because we can't agree
<Rosco2> No problems - thanks all
<sil2100> #subtopic Eickmeyer for PPU permissions
<sil2100> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Eickmeyer/PPUApplication
<sil2100> (the packages are defined in the application)
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: apologies for the long wait!
<Eickmeyer> sil2100: No worries. I ran my son to school and back watching on Quasseldroid. :)
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: could you introduce yourself?
<Eickmeyer> I'm Erich Eickmeyer, current council chair and de-facto project lead for Ubuntu Studio. I've been driving the project for the past year, but have been oblivious to the fact that nobody had upload permissions for the two years prior.
<Eickmeyer> I had previous experience with RPM packaging and have been working on Debian packaging for said past year.
<Eickmeyer> Jumped from Fedora to Ubuntu Studio when I saw the need for leadership.
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: \o/
<sil2100> ;)
<rbasak> Eickmeyer: welcome, and thank you for sitting through all of this
<Eickmeyer> Had previously used Ubuntu for the majority of my distro-hoppig time. :)
<Eickmeyer> rbasak: Thank you.
<rbasak> Eickmeyer: how familiar would you say you are with respect to Ubuntu-specific development processes that don't apply to Debian?
<sil2100> (question time o/)
 * sil2100 pokes Eickmeyer 
<Eickmeyer> My concern is for the Ubuntu Studio project to keep moving forward.
<Eickmeyer> [end intro]
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: there was a question from rbasak above ^
<sil2100> ;)
<Eickmeyer> rbasak: Very famililar, as I'm much more keen on Ubuntu's process than Debian's process. While managing the project, I was always keeping my eye out for the feature/UI/Beta/RC freezes to make sure that we weren't going to have unfinished business before then.
<rbasak> Oh sorry, I had thought you were done.
<rbasak> Eickmeyer: OK, thanks. Do you know about proposed migration in Ubuntu?
<Eickmeyer> rbasak: Vaguely. As I understand it, when a package gets uploaded it goes into proposed and then through a series of tests before landing in the archive. For new packages, that also requires a manual review.
<sil2100> Any other questions?
<rbasak> Eickmeyer: it's documented at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration. The general rule is to make sure that packages you upload do migrate.
<slashd> Eickmeyer, talking about proposed, what can influence/impact the release of a package in -proposed ?
<rbasak> (I'm done with questions - thanks)
<cyphermox> no questions; but I do have a comment. I was asked by Erich to provide an endorsement, unfortunately I was unable to do so on time; but I do fully endorse Eickmeyer for upload rights. I haven't reviewed much, but it's consistent with the requested PPU upload rights and I am happy with the packaging quality
<slashd> cyphermox, but you never sponsored him ? at least I don't see it in sponsorship miner
<cyphermox> I have sponsored him, package is still in NEW
<slashd> cyphermox, ack
<cyphermox> I have reviewed the other packages uploaded.
<Eickmeyer> slashd: From what I understand, if that package affects other packages, or has other errors, that can affect it from being migrated.
<Eickmeyer> By affects I mean negatively.
<slashd> Eickmeyer, how this package affect other package is reported ? and where would you look at to see it ?
<Eickmeyer> slashd: The textual output of the proposed-migration scripts, correct?
<slashd> ok, no more question for me
<tsimonq2> No questions for me.
<Eickmeyer> Running Britney locally is a good idea too.
<tsimonq2> ^ unrelated, I recently wrote some code making thst easy.
<tsimonq2> :P
<slashd> vote ?
<Eickmeyer> Whoops, tsimonq2 did it again.
<sil2100> Ok, I think it's time to vote
<sil2100> #vote for granting Eickmeyer PPU rights to packages as per his application
<meetingology> Please vote on: for granting Eickmeyer PPU rights to packages as per his application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<slashd> +0 not much uploads yet and very recent uploads (2-3 weeks old). I was about to say that he has only 1 endorsement, but he has 2 including cyphermox. I would say too early for me.
<meetingology> +0 not much uploads yet and very recent uploads (2-3 weeks old). I was about to say that he has only 1 endorsement, but he has 2 including cyphermox. I would say too early for me. received from slashd
<tsimonq2> -1 I'd like to see more experience with a wider variety of packages
<meetingology> -1 I'd like to see more experience with a wider variety of packages received from tsimonq2
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<rbasak> I'm heavily weight Rosco2's endorsement as someone who is on his team and already uploads these packages.
<rbasak> I heavily weight
<rbasak> Sorry typing ahead of thinking today
<sil2100> +0 I appreciate your involvement and I really think that in the nearest future you should really just have upload rights, but 5 packages are a bit not enough for me to have a good understanding of your skills
<meetingology> +0 I appreciate your involvement and I really think that in the nearest future you should really just have upload rights, but 5 packages are a bit not enough for me to have a good understanding of your skills received from sil2100
<sil2100> Oh, endorsement from cyphermox I missed
<sil2100> uh
<sil2100> Well
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for granting Eickmeyer PPU rights to packages as per his application
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:1 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> Another vote undecided it seems ^
<sil2100> Actually
<sil2100> hm, Eickmeyer's PPU packagelist seems odd
<sil2100> This is what made me confused, I guess I'm tired
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: so I see on your wiki application page you seem to mention the list of packages and 'Ubuntu Studio Package Set'
<rbasak> Oh
<Eickmeyer> sil2100: Yes, the "Ubuntu Studio Package Set" is really a "hail mary" to save Ubuntu Studio.
<sil2100> I don't think this is supposed to be there
<rbasak> -1 on that, sorry.
<Eickmeyer> I can remove it.
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: yes, please
<Eickmeyer> Done
<sil2100> Since if we remove that, then I can be +1 on the PPU list
<sil2100> (with cyphermox's endorsement)
<sil2100> Ok, let's just re-do the vote to be sure:
<cyphermox> my vote counted it out
<cyphermox> (since it was obvious from before that was undecided etc etc)
<sil2100> #vote for granting Eickmeyer PPU rights to packages: carla, grub2-themes-ubuntustudio and ubuntustudio-*
<meetingology> Please vote on: for granting Eickmeyer PPU rights to packages: carla, grub2-themes-ubuntustudio and ubuntustudio-*
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<slashd> +0 for the same reason
<meetingology> +0 for the same reason received from slashd
<sil2100> +1 you're new but with the endorsements so far, and also a +1 from Rosco, I think it's safe to say you should just be able to 'do it'
<meetingology> +1 you're new but with the endorsements so far, and also a +1 from Rosco, I think it's safe to say you should just be able to 'do it' received from sil2100
<sil2100> (since it's just a small subset of packages that you acually work on)
<sil2100> tsimonq2: ^
<tsimonq2> +0 for the same reason
<meetingology> +0 for the same reason received from tsimonq2
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for granting Eickmeyer PPU rights to packages: carla, grub2-themes-ubuntustudio and ubuntustudio-*
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> Ok, still undecided, but at least it's clear
<cyphermox> that's still not a carried; yep
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: I think this will also have to wait till next meeting (or e-mail)
<Eickmeyer> Okay.
<rbasak> Hang on
<sil2100> Ok, I think we need some action items for those
<rbasak> I think it is carried
<sil2100> rbasak: it's not
<cyphermox> rbasak: oh?
<sil2100> rbasak: oh
<rbasak> The absentees cannot cause the motion to fail
<sil2100> rbasak: wait
<rbasak> If they both voted -1, it'd be 3-2
<cyphermox> actually
<sil2100> rbasak: you are right I think!
<cyphermox> yes
<sil2100> Yaay
<Eickmeyer> \o/
<sil2100> yay for math \o/
<sil2100> ;)
<cyphermox> well
<cyphermox> it's iffy, but sure ;)
<sil2100> Eickmeyer: congratulations anyway o/
<Eickmeyer> Thanks!
<Rosco2> \o/
<slashd> Congrats to both of you Rosco2 Eickmeyer
<sil2100> Now, we need action items for both Rosco2 and Eickmeyer
<Eickmeyer> Now I'm just hoping for Rosco2 to get the packageset. Any chance we can be cc'd on the emails?
<rbasak> Reminder: action items for the announcements too, please
<sil2100> They have similar sets of packages, but I think we'd need 2 separate packagesets anyway
<sil2100> Any volunteers?
<rbasak> Eickmeyer: subscribe to devel-permissions@ please!
<Eickmeyer> rbasak: Already subscribed. :)
<cyphermox> sil2100: I don't think this needs separate packagesets
<rbasak> No packagesets - just PPU?
<sil2100> I mean, PPU's
<cyphermox> if the list is the same; it can be just one especially since it's quite likely to be temporary
<sil2100> cyphermox: well, Rosco2 has some more
<cyphermox> oh
<cyphermox> in that case two yeah
<sil2100> cyphermox: since he has the US ones + his Debian packages
<cyphermox> well
<cyphermox> this is where it's a little complicated
<cyphermox> it really should be one PPU list for debian packages
<cyphermox> and one separate PPU list for anything else.
<sil2100> Could be that
<sil2100> cyphermox: on the other hand
<cyphermox> (so both Erich and Ross can share that)
<rbasak> Huh?
<rbasak> What's a PPU list?
<sil2100> cyphermox: I see that previously we had all those personal- packagesets, so I just assumed for such custom PPUs we go the personal-* way
<rbasak> It's an edit-acl command per entry
<cyphermox> rbasak: packageset
<cyphermox> sil2100: well, we can also share such packagesets if we create one
<rbasak> "Where an individual has a special reason for upload rights to a large number of packages that the DMB expects to need to manage frequently, we can create a "personal packageset" for this person, named "personal-<lpid>"."
<rbasak> I'm not sure that applies here.
<sil2100> cyphermox: yeah, but how would you call it? ;)
<cyphermox> *shrugs*
<sil2100> cyphermox: I guess it's a bikesheding thing
<cyphermox> ubuntustudio-tehming?
<cyphermox> it doesn't matter much
<sil2100> Ah, right, we do have input-methods already
<cyphermox> my point was the Debian packages as separate than the ubuntusutdio-
<sil2100> Makes sense
<sil2100> rbasak: ah, right
<rbasak> We did it for GunnarHj because of fonts-*
<sil2100> rbasak: you are correct, we might not even have to do that
<cyphermox> it's only because DD PPU won't change, whereas ubuntustudio-* won't be necessary as soon as they have full flavour packageset rights
<rbasak> I'm not sure why fossfreedom needed it. I wasn't present at that meeting.
<sil2100> Anyone want to take the action for that?
<cyphermox> creating any packageset will require TB action
<sil2100> cyphermox: as mentioned by rbasak, we might not need that
<rbasak> cyphermox: but so does adding PPU entries
<cyphermox> rbasak: no
<sil2100> cyphermox: like, we can just assign PPU rights manually without a packageset
<cyphermox> yup
<rbasak> cyphermox: OK. Well you should take the action to add the PPU entries without help from the TB then :-P
<cyphermox> I was thinking ahead in terms of maintainability
<sil2100> So we should be good without the TB
<sil2100> (or at least that was my understanding?)
<cyphermox> ie. so we don't have to do as much cleanup later, but sure, I'll take the actions
<sil2100> #action cyphermox to deal with PPU rights for Rosco2 and Eickmeyer
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to deal with PPU rights for Rosco2 and Eickmeyer
<sil2100> cyphermox: thanks! ;)
<rbasak> "PPU changes or the creation of a new packageset must be done by the TB." but I was the one who wrote that documentation.
<sil2100> phew
<cyphermox> thanks to you sil2100
<rbasak> sil2100: actions for the announcements please
<sil2100> rbasak: ah, indeed!
<rbasak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_a_successful_applications
<cyphermox> rbasak: IIRC we can add single PPUs just fine; I remember doing so before
<cyphermox> we just can't create the packageset
<sil2100> cyphermox: do you want to do the announcements as well or should I do those to save you time?
<cyphermox> sil2100: if you can please do the announcements?
<cyphermox> I've been working on updating the packageset
<cyphermox> +s
<sil2100> cyphermox: ok!
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to send out announcements for Rosco2 and Eickmeyer
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to send out announcements for Rosco2 and Eickmeyer
<sil2100> OK!
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> ...it's not over YET!
<sil2100> Time for other business, and I think teward wanted to bring something up?
<teward> I know there's already an AOB on the agenda but... *raises hand*
<teward> yeah just a suggestion/comment if I may
<tsimonq2> I understand teward has some AOB
<tsimonq2> yeah
<teward> In personal grilling by tsimonq2 to test breadth-of-knowledge ahead of a Core Dev application that I intend to file in a few weeks, it became more and more clear to me that the definition of breadth-of-knowledge requirements varies between DMB members, and is not defined for any of the upload tiers
<sil2100> teward: maybe you start, we'll move on to the other one afterwards
<teward> it is implied that CoreDev with full upload access would have the largest breadth of knowledge, however I would like to request that the DMB come up with more clear requirements for the varying 'tiers' of upload rights access
<teward> as there is no clear documentation, and as has been stated to me multiple times, each DMB member has their own general 'opinions' on the various requirements for the various upload tiers.
<cyphermox> teward: that's why tsimonq2 has an action to add that to the wiki and clarify it :)
<teward> cyphermox: indeed, but I also suggest perhaps *not* giving that to Simon
<teward> Simon is currently... *looks* ... fifty documentation tasks behind due to classes/work/otherObligations
<tsimonq2> I will admit to grilling teward in a personal capacity before I advocate for him :P
<tsimonq2> hah
<cyphermox> teward: ok; we're talking about just a single person responsible for the action though; I'm sure tsimonq2 will ask for questions when it gets to points he's not sure about :)
<teward> ack
<tsimonq2> Yup.
<teward> cyphermox: i assume then that this is a discussion point internally as well :)
<sil2100> teward: well, it wouldn't be just Simon doing the documentation, but we wanted him to start it off
<teward> indeed.
<sil2100> And then work together on the final form
<teward> As long as it's on the radar, and the breadth of knowledge is considered based on what each upload tier requires, all's good :)
<cyphermox> teward: perhaps we hadn't made that explicit; but yeah, as per what sil2100  is saying
<teward> just wanted to get that clarification in there.
<cyphermox> teward: thanks :)
<teward> cyphermox: indeed, the quick AOB discussion helps :)
<teward> </done>  *lurks*
<cyphermox> yup
<sil2100> teward: \o/
<sil2100> Ok, now slashd's topic
<sil2100> "DMB meeting doesn't have a good time coverage for APAC Ubuntu community. Should we add a meeting time or implicitly just process by email ?"
<teward> (it's nice when some AOB discussions're just short and easy xD)
<sil2100> I think we're all tired and worn off already
<cyphermox> sil2100: I liked the suggestion of asking by email for a time that would work for them
<slashd> sil2100, seyeong (my APAC colleague) will send an official request to the ML.
<tsimonq2> I'm open to showing up in the evening US time.
<sil2100> cyphermox, slashd: excellent
<tsimonq2> That's the middle of the night for Europe though.
<sil2100> I guess it's decided: we wait for an e-mail to the ML and resolve that there
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: we'll figure something out :)
<tsimonq2> ok
<slashd> sil2100, lgtm
<sil2100> slashd: would that be fine? Let's add an action item to check on this for next meeting
<tsimonq2> Nothing elsw from me. Who doesn't love a three hour DMB meeting? :)
<slashd> sil2100, yep
<tsimonq2> *else
<sil2100> #action slashd to follow up on the APAC Ubuntu community coverage
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to follow up on the APAC Ubuntu community coverage
<sil2100> Ok, I think it's time
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar 11 17:54:32 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-03-11-15.05.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks everyone!
<slashd> take care guys !
<sil2100> cyphermox: thanks for chairing for the first part of the meeting!
<tsimonq2> Thanks!
<Eickmeyer> Thanks everyone! Looking forward to the packageset decision.
<sil2100> This was a very intense DMB meeting, phew
<cyphermox> thanks for taking over
<teward> sil2100: drinks are on me then for everyone to relax after that intense meeting :P
<teward> never seen one so intense and I've lurked many :P
<tsimonq2> I'll take a drink :P
<teward> you get water
<teward> you aren't of age yet.
<tsimonq2> Come find me at LFNW or SELF
<Rosco2> Cheers everyone! Now, wheres the fridge.
<tsimonq2> hah
<tsimonq2> no
<tsimonq2> Coffee
<tsimonq2> Rosco2: *points at teward*
<Eickmeyer> Same. Coffee (It's 11 am here post DST change)
<teward> coffee is easy.
<Rosco2> European time :-)
<tsimonq2> Bad DST is bad.
<teward> i have unlimited here :P
<tsimonq2> teward: Especially when you've had six cups today. :P
<teward> seven*
<tsimonq2> aXd
<teward> i had another cup since i mentioned 6
<tsimonq2> *XD
<acheronuk> from another flavour, I appreciate the time put into this :)
<tsimonq2> np :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-03-14
 * vorlon waves
 * cyphermox waves
<tdaitx> o/
<waveform> o/
<sil2100> o/
<juliank> \o
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 14 15:02:22 2019 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<rbalint> o/
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<vorlon> $ echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<vorlon> juliank cyphermox bdmurray xnox waveform mwhudson tdaitx infinity sil2100 rbalint vorlon doko
<juliank> one sec
<juliank> Let's do the daily version:
<juliank> Fri:
<juliank>  * apt:
<juliank>   * 1.8.0 release
<juliank>   * cherry-picking of the new fixes from 1.8.0 to stable branches
<juliank>   * merging translations down the branches (1.8->1.7->1.6->1.2->trusty)
<juliank>     - probably should do 1.6->1.4 then 1.4->1.2, though.
<juliank> Mon:
<juliank>  * apt 1.7.4 and 1.6.30 stable release updates
<juliank>  * python-apt 1.8.4 release, fixing a few locking bugs
<juliank> Tue:
<juliank>  * apt 1.2.31 and 1.0.1ubuntu2.22 stable release updates
<juliank> Wed:
<juliank>  * Updated socket-activated debconf client helper for PackageKit (https://github.com/hughsie/PackageKit/pull/289)
<juliank>  * some trello card splitting
<juliank> Thu:
<juliank>  * Investigated ubuntu-drivers for aptdaemon usage -> only in tests
<juliank>  * Merged minimize-manual for live-cdrootfs/bionic
<juliank>  * Discussed private ppa support for add-apt-repository with ddstreet and cjwatson (bug 645404)
<ubottu> bug 645404 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "Support Private PPAs" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/645404
<juliank>  * More work on ESM UX
<juliank> (done)
<cyphermox> grub2 uploaded for adding the http module to EFI binary + plymouth fixes
<cyphermox> preparing grub2 SRUs for http module, debconf prompts
<cyphermox> cleaning up / revising the packageset update script for the DMB
<cyphermox> debugging netplan.io autopkgtests: wifi tests failing on some architectures (on purpose), etc.
<cyphermox> prepared and uploaded netplan.io SRUs for bionic, cosmic (now in queue)
<cyphermox> (done)
<bdmurray> research into how to use prometheus client for the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> discussed with IS using a script to convert json instead
<bdmurray> worked on conversion of an ET cronjob from pycassa to python cassandra
<bdmurray> searched for a gdb patch for bug LP: #1818918
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1818918 in gdb (Ubuntu) "gdb doesn't search in debug-file-directory for .gnu_debugaltlink" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1818918
<bdmurray> reported ET bug re long LP bug titles (LP: #1819199)
<bdmurray> reported apport bug re gdbsandbox and libc6 (LP: #1819230)
<bdmurray> review and merge of azzar1's fix for LP: #1816423
<bdmurray> worked on lintian issues with ubuntu-release-upgrader
<bdmurray> reuploaded distro-info for C and T with proper deps
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1819199 in Errors "bug creator can create very long bug titles" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1819199
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1819230 in Apport "gdb sandbox creation should use report's libc6 version" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1819230
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1816423 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Tells you that livepatch will be disabled when it wasn't enabled before" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1816423
<bdmurray> done
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> * Fix up LP: #1805841
<xnox> * Completed LP: #1766865 for LUKS2/partman-crypto
<xnox> * Fixing up MAAS images for LUKS2 LP: #1818876
<xnox> * Upstreaming s390-tools fixes for zkey LUKS2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805841 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "CPI information about kvm usage is lost during apt upgrade" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805841
<xnox> * Worked on
<xnox>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/atlas/+bug/1814796 to get
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1766865 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[19.04 FEAT] Installer support for protected key dm-crypt" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766865
<xnox>   to incomplete state, the provided patches FTBFS
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1818876 in maas-images "maas images lack enough of crypto for cryptsetup in the ephemeral images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1818876
<xnox> * Worked on
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1814796 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[19.04 FEAT] Provide optimized libatlas libraries for different types of z Systems" [Medium,Incomplete]
<xnox>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lvm2/+bug/1817097 to
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1817097 in lvm2 "pvmove causes file system corruption without notice upon move from 512 -> 4096 logical block size devices" [Medium,Confirmed]
<xnox>   incomplete state, actually not critical, well-known, provided
<xnox>   workaround
<xnox> * There are no outstanding foundations actionable items requested by
<xnox>   IBM for s390x for disco
<xnox> = Blocked =
<xnox> * Responded to the OpenSSL SRU questions, awaiting for openssl to be accepted
<xnox>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssl/+bug/1797386
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1797386 in openssl (Ubuntu) "[SRU] OpenSSL 1.1.1 to 18.04 LTS" [Undecided,In progress]
<xnox> * Parter upload in unapproved
<xnox> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=ibm-java80
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibm-java71/+bug/1818799
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1818799 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[Comm] IBM JDK 8.0.5.30 integration into Ubuntu" [High,In progress]
<xnox> = Bugs to review =
<xnox> * multipath bug (out of my breadth, maybe cpa)
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/multipath-tools/+bug/1815599
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1815599 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "multipath shows '#:#:#:#' for iscsi device after error injection" [Undecided,New]
<xnox> * cryptsetup decrease memory requirement from 1GB to something tolarable
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cryptsetup/+bug/1820049
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1820049 in cryptsetup (Ubuntu) "cryptsetup 2.1.0 requires excessive amount of RAM ( 1GB ) to luksOpen encrypted drives" [Undecided,New]
<xnox> done
 * sil2100 pokes waveform 
<waveform> * Finished pi "amazing" spec; in for review
<waveform> * Moving RPi patches from livecd-rootfs to linux-firmware-raspi2 (needs review)
<waveform> * SRU for RPi.GPIO to bionic / cosmic
<waveform> * Upgraded wiringPi package to 2.50 version
<gaughen> waveform, it's Pi day!
<waveform> * Testing of pi-bluetooth package on Pi3B, 3B+, (need to do 3A+) under arm64 (need to verify armhf)
<waveform> * Investigating integration of pi-bluetooth fixes into ubuntu core
<waveform> * More reading on ARM trustzone
<waveform> (done)
<tdaitx> * openjdk-11 bionic security transition
<tdaitx>   - reviewed & uploaded packages
<tdaitx>   - bumped & rebuild arch specific packages for cosmic
<tdaitx>   - prepared openjdk-11 upload for cosmic
<tdaitx> * ant fix for mrjar LP: #1808383
<tdaitx> * unable to reproduce sweethome3d menu bug (chroot & qemu) LP: #1816791
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1808383 in ant (Ubuntu Disco) "Java 9+ multi-release jars are not supported in ant tasks" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1808383
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1816791 in sweethome3d (Ubuntu) "18.04 backport doesn't properly display menu entries" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1816791
<sil2100> - Friday: out-of-office
<sil2100> - A very long and busy DMB meeting
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - New kernel cycle starting
<sil2100> - Help with package copies for OpenJDK-11 bionic/cosmic
<sil2100> - Reviewing Steve's ubuntu-cdimage clean-up branch (first step)
<sil2100> - core18
<sil2100>   * Started cleanup in gadget branch permissions (again)
<sil2100>   * Released new core18
<sil2100>   * Prepared updates for gadgets
<sil2100> - Packaging the WALA security fix and testing the packages + coordination
<sil2100> - Booking for the release sprint
<sil2100> - Addressing Laney's review concerns in the ADT-regression bug notifier
<sil2100> (done)
<rbalint> * added detecting wsl to systemd-detect-virt https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/11932
<rbalint> * fixed libcec ftbfs with 4.0.4+dfsg1-2 via Debian
<rbalint> * uploaded wireshark 3.0.0 to experimental (in NEW now)
<rbalint> * tested reboot speed cycles on an old laptop
<rbalint>   - suggested using dbus for reboot since sudo reboot bypasses inhibitor locks
<rbalint> * verified many SRU-d unattended-upgrades bugs for Xenial
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * reverting resolvconf SRU due to regressions (LP: #1819625)
<vorlon>  * TB work
<vorlon>  * more trusty ESM transition discussions
<vorlon>  * plotting around secureboot policy transition and FIPS kernels
<vorlon>  * looking at a possible regression in trusty that may be the kernel refusing to load kernel modules signed with a key it doesn't know, while loading completely unsigned kernels (LP: #1818134)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1819625 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "Package resolvconf=1.79ubuntu10.18.04.1 broken" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1819625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1818134 in bcmwl (Ubuntu) "modprobe: ERROR: could not insert 'wl': Package not installed ubuntu14.04.5LTS kernel 3.13.0-165-generic" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1818134
<vorlon>  * debian-cd, cdimage MPs for the desktop team (multilayer squashfs and canary image)
<vorlon> (done)
<vorlon> doko:
<bdmurray> vorlon: so no doko?
<vorlon> guess not
<vorlon> any questions over status?
 * juliank has gone sightly mad
<vorlon> xnox: on openssl, did you put your response in the SRU bug template?
<bdmurray> vorlon: none here
<doko> ohh, US summer time?
<bdmurray> doko: yeah
<doko> sorry, didn't prepare. but still doing openjdk-11 backports
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> #topic Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1818953 was assigned to our team
<ubottu> bug 1818953 in perl (Ubuntu Disco) "mblen() failing in Perl / Perl core dumping core on UBUNTU 19.04 by executing perl script, multiple architectures" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1818953
<vorlon> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<xnox> there is a patch proposed by debina developer
 * vorlon nods
<xnox> if no traction there, will upload into ubuntu
<bdmurray> xnox: so should you be the assignee?
<xnox> sure
<vorlon> there is a trello card as well for it
<vorlon> I don't know if infinity took it, we discussed it this week
<bdmurray> the card has his symbol
<vorlon> xnox: ^^
<vorlon> bdmurray: other bugs?
<bdmurray> bug 1819427
<ubottu> bug 1819427 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Disco daily install doens't include the snaps" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1819427
<xnox> i am sure both infinity and I would love to just sync it, out of debian
<vorlon> xnox: that's fine, but whoever does it, please close out the card so I don't have to look at it again ;)
<xnox> bdmurray, i thought some desktopy people mentioned that they are working on it.
<seb128> that snap/daily install has been actively looked at by Ken/Will with the snap team and has been handed to the snapd team for investigation now since it looks like a bug on their side
<xnox> bdmurray, and strictly not a regression, rather never enabled.
<xnox> seb128, oh, ok, thanks.
<bdmurray> seb128: should there be another task then?
<seb128> xnox, that bug is not about the manifest, it's about the target system missing the seeded snap
<seb128> snaps
<vorlon> doko: what was never enabled?
<vorlon> indeed
<xnox> interesting
<vorlon> and anyway it doesn't look like a ubiquity bug based on the discussion
<seb128> bdmurray, probably, I was waiting for them to figure out the details to triage/Reassign as appropriate
<xnox> vorlon, listing snaps in desktop.iso's manifest
<seb128> xnox, that's bug #1819287 and didrocks is looking at it
<ubottu> bug 1819287 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "snaps missing from manifests of daily desktop images" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1819287
<bdmurray> other than ogra's comment its not clear its been handed off
<vorlon> it's being worked through the forum currently
<vorlon> I don't believe it's for Foundations to drive
<vorlon> maybe assign the bug to chipaca
<seb128> (+1 for that)
<vorlon> it should be targeted to disco for sure, but unless snap team identifies something in livecd-rootfs, it's not-for-us
<gaughen> vorlon, sounds like we should raise it to the snapd team
<seb128> it's being discussed atm on #snappy, I don't believe there is action needed on those issues
<bdmurray> Okay should we move on then?
<vorlon> yes please
<bdmurray> Does bug 1396160 seem worth fixing for disco?
<ubottu> bug 1396160 in apport (Ubuntu) "/usr/share/apport/recoverable_problem:PermissionError:/usr/share/apport/recoverable_problem@75:main:add_proc_info" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1396160
<bdmurray> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/72c621876cfe04b51b37f8f3ef08c3da0460b462 is the most recent errors bucket
<vorlon> bdmurray: are you proposing it because it's currently the spammiest crash for us?
<vorlon> if so then +1
<bdmurray> Well, that and its a bad user experience getting the crash dialog for no reason. It came up because I hit it too.
<bdmurray> Last one, bug 1816812. What is this even about? It doesn't seem very helpful.
<ubottu> bug 1816812 in systemd (Ubuntu Disco) "pull seb patch" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1816812
<vorlon> bdmurray: right, but we know how many users the spurious dialog is affecting by how many reports we get :)
<seb128> all gnome-classic and unity users have their logout not working
<seb128> or rather timeouting and taking ages
<xnox> sigh
<seb128> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/11697 has the details
<xnox> ack
<seb128> and it's a pretty simple patch
<seb128> please just backport it :)
<xnox> i think the solution is to merge the bugfix release v241 into disco
<vorlon> what could go wrong
<xnox> cause our disco systemd is now v240,71
<xnox> given the number of patches we have
<vorlon> xnox: I don't think we need to micromanage the resolution :) do you agree that we need to get this bug fixed for disco?
<xnox> yeah
<vorlon> ok. it's targeted, and I'll create a card for it that you can mangle to taste after
<seb128> can I ask a rls-bug question/raise a point before you guys move to another topic? or is this meeting not the right venue? (I'm happy to email or go the appropriate way)
<vorlon> seb128: go ahead
<seb128> my understand of the process was that rls-<nn>-incoming list should be regularly reviewed and driven to 0 by acception or -notfixing things
<seb128> but the foundations list has items sitting in place for months
<seb128> so I'm unsure if it means we should escalade problems by some other mean?
<seb128> e.g bug #1817453 is concerning desktop for the incoming release
<ubottu> bug 1817453 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "19.04 installer displays keyboard layouts in the wrong language" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1817453
<seb128> but doesn't seem to get reviewed
 * xnox doesn't desktop own ubiquity?!
 * seb128 slaps xnox
<vorlon>  /kick xnox
<sil2100> ;)
<vorlon> bdmurray: have you triaged this bug in some other manner?
<seb128> that's recent-ish
<seb128> bug things like bug #1802337 are on the list since novembre
<ubottu> bug 1802337 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Please apply security updates during Ubuntu install" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1802337
<bdmurray> vorlon: no
<vorlon> seb128: I think in general the volume is such that we don't get through the ones of medium or lower importance
<seb128> k, good to know
<vorlon> but of course one of these you point out is high
<seb128> right
<vorlon> bdmurray: should we take LP: #1817453 now?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1817453 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "19.04 installer displays keyboard layouts in the wrong language" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1817453
<cyphermox> seb128: keyboard layouts one is a regression, I'm reasonably sure
<bdmurray> vorlon: I think so
<seb128> vorlon, well, looking at the report you have 1 critical and 6 high on the list
<cyphermox> heh, well, as per the bug obviously
<bdmurray> seb128: some of those are tagged and targetted so on both lists
<seb128> the process is to tag -notfixing or target/untag though
<seb128> items should never stay on -incoming if you respect that
<seb128> (we drive our list for desktop to 0 every week and it works)
<juliank> the keyboard stuff sounds like an off-by-1 or something bug
<vorlon> bdmurray: so do we agree to drive this to 0 in the future, for crit+high?
<seb128> vorlon, anyway, I didn't want to derail your meeting too long, I think it would have value to have the list driven to 0, but I also note that usually it would happen for items > medium
<bdmurray> vorlon: sure
<vorlon> ok
<seb128> thx!
<vorlon> seb128: thanks for raising
<vorlon> [TOPIC] proposed-migration
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: proposed-migration
<seb128> np, thx for listening :)
<vorlon> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/disco/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> this is looking busier again
<vorlon> cyphermox: you have netplan.io in progress, right?
<cyphermox> yes
<vorlon> xnox: you took fuse-zip last week; any progress?
<cyphermox> finally figured a way to fix at least wifis
<xnox> vorlon, no progress, no
<gaughen> cyphermox, vorlon can we add that to the wiki page for running the meeting - regarding driving crit+high on incoming to zero
<gaughen> cyphermox, vorlon and can we start using that wiki page to run the meetings?
<vorlon> if the wiki page is linked from an entry point ;)
<juliank> um, rbalint, there are a lot of "apt_pkg.pkgsystem_unlock() failed due to not holding the lock but trying to continue" in the u-u test log
<vorlon> xnox: are you going to work on it this week?
<xnox> yes
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> doko: you had claimed epsilon, I think?
<cjwatson> 
<rbalint> juliank, yes, this is a workaround for the lock being lost
<vorlon> (python-scipy is no longer blocking things except for python-numpy, hurray for regressions in release)
<juliank> rbalint: but i thought we fixed it so we don't lose it anymore
<gaughen> vorlon, yes, we'll make that so #1
<doko> vorlon: yes, still on my list, didn't find the time yet
<vorlon> ok
<rbalint> juliank, i hoped, but then python-apt/apt still looses it
<rbalint> juliank, it seems
<rbalint> juliank, it think it became better
<vorlon> e2fsprogs is blocked by initramfs-tools, which is a false-positive, just needs rerun now that mwhudson and I have fixed busybox vs isc-dhcp client (have clicked the button now)
<vorlon> but also blocked by systemd/arm64
<vorlon> xnox: ^^ ?
<rbalint> juliank, is it in disco?
<juliank> yeah
<xnox> vorlon, lovely
<vorlon> xnox: not lovely, racy
<xnox> vorlon, i had analysis pinged to me about arm64 from Laney, need to upload that.
<vorlon> I've clicked that button now too
<vorlon> ok
<rbalint> juliank, at least if you see that now often it became more reproducible :-)
<vorlon> python-numpy + python-scipy, I don't know if we have a path forward on resolving that
<juliank> rbalint: it's in the most recent autopkgtest logs where I see it
<vorlon> we've badtest'ed python-scipy in release, so maybe we should just do the same for the proposed version
<juliank> 657 messages like that in the latest
 * Laney fluffles xnox 
<vorlon> fwiw Debian isn't shipping the new scipy or the new numpy yet
<juliank> rbalint: this should not happen at all, it should be calling apt_pkg.pkgsystem_unlock_inner
<vorlon> and lintian is the same issue as last time
<vorlon> so I think that covers the p-m stuff that currently needs attention
<juliank> so, somehow, u-u ends up getting an AttributeError on apt_pkg.pkgsystem_unlock_inner()
<rbalint> juliank, it used to work
<vorlon> and juliank and rbalint are getting ahead on u-u + python-apt before the report marks it as 'late', +1
<vorlon> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<vorlon> anything else?
<cjwatson> (sorry for the noise, dodgy connection)
<juliank> ah, no, it's upgrading debian testing, that's not going to help :)
<juliank> um, stable
<juliank> debian stable never got any of the frontend locking stuff or the locking fixes
<rbalint> juliank, it is upgrading snapshots, i'll move to newer snapshot points
<juliank> well, that won't help, as there are no fixes in later snapshots either :)
<rbalint> juliank, no fix in sid?
<juliank> Well, yes, in sid
<juliank> but that looks like a install security updates in stable test?
<juliank> maybe I'm wrong
<rbalint> which log are you looking at?
<juliank> the latest
<vorlon> you two can have the side conversation post-meeting ;)
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 14 15:55:10 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-03-14-15.02.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks, all
 * juliank -> #ubuntu-devel
<sil2100> vorlon: thanks o/
<xnox> vorlon, updated the regression potential section of the openssl sru bug report.
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-03-09
<rbasak> o/
<sil2100> o/
<slashd> o/
<rafaeldtinoco> o/
<ddstreet> o/
<sil2100> Do we have a selected chair for today?
<rafaeldtinoco> dont think so
 * gaughen watches
<sil2100> Should I start then? Or are there any other volunteers?
 * rcj watches
 * rbasak is in a concurrent meeting, so would prefer not to chair
 * rafaeldtinoco in the same meeting
<ddstreet> I'm on vacation on my phone so I will mostly watch/listen
<sil2100> Let me start then
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar  9 15:05:50 2020 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic:
<teward> o/
<teward> sorry network issues
<teward> (just fixed them heh)
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> I think the only sensible action item from previous meetings is the fact that the vote announcement has finished and we have new DMB members o/
<rbasak> We need to ratify/select our ongoing meeting schedule
<teward> indeed we do (thank you to all who gave me a vote of confidence!)
<rbasak> And welcome to the new DMB members :)
<sil2100> Welcome o/
<rafaeldtinoco> thank you!
<rafaeldtinoco> =)
<ddstreet> Thnx o/
<sil2100> Let's get to the meeting schedule during AOB
<teward> agreed
<sil2100> Anyway, I'll clean up the agenda page to clean up those items that make no longer sense (from Review of previous action items)
<sil2100> Let's move on for now
<sil2100> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<sil2100> We have two applicants today
<sil2100> I see rcj is here already, cascardo are you also here?
<cascardo> I am around for any questions
<sil2100> Ok, so let's proceed in order per the agenda page then
<sil2100> #subtopic Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo for makedumpfile, kexec-tools, crash PPU
<sil2100> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThadeuCascardo/KdumpUploadApplication
<sil2100> cascardo: hello! Could you briefly introduce yourself?
<cascardo> hello, I work on the kernel team, have been a DD for a while, and have been maintaining kdump-tools/makedumpfile for a couple of years, IIRC
<rbasak> cascardo: do you have upload access to anything in Ubuntu right now, or would this be the first time you can upload to Ubuntu without sponsorship?
<cascardo> rbasak: I can upload the linux set of packages
<rbasak> Ah - granted by the kernel team DMB delegation presumably? When were you given access to that?
<rbasak> And do you have any other upload access apart from the linux set?
<sil2100> DMB members: please proceed with questions, if you have any
 * rafaeldtinoco looks at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kexec-tools/1:2.0.16-1ubuntu1
<cascardo> around early 2018
<cascardo> rbasak: only the linux set
<rbasak> OK, thanks
<slashd> I don't have questions, I've worked closely with cascardo in a couple of occasions.
 * rbasak is still looking
 * teward is still looking as well
<teward> cascardo: this may sound like an obvious question since you're on the server team, but I notice in your application you indicate that you need to be more concervative on uploads to stable releases.  You also indicate more testing should be done.  ...
<bdmurray> teward: he said he's on the kernel team
<teward> ... do you have any intention of spearheading the 'additional testing' you indicate should be done?  And how would PPU rights faciliate that testing compared to what you currently have access to?
<teward> bdmurray: the ... indicated a truncation, please permit me to finish my sentences ;)
<teward> s/server team/kernel team/
<teward> E:NeedThirdCoffee :)
<teward> (sorry for the mistype_
<cascardo> teward: yeah, I would like to spearhead that, add additional testing to those packages so we can find out when they stop working for new kernels, and be more active in backporting new versions
<rbasak> cascardo: at the moment, would any regular upload to Ubuntu for your requested PPU packages be acceptable, or are there any restrictions?
<cascardo> the PPU rights would not facilitate working on that additional testing, but would allow me to more quickly get those fixes in Ubuntu
<cascardo> rbasak: sorry, I didn't understand the question, what do you mean by regular uploads? sponsored uploads?
<rafaeldtinoco> cascardo: he means today I suppose .. would exist any blocker if you wanted to upload it today ?
<rafaeldtinoco> (he is talking in a meeting I'm listening to, trying to help)
<cascardo> I am supposing you mean someone else doing the uploads, I haven't had issues with that, so, in principle, no restrictions
<rafaeldtinoco> cascardo: let's say you want to do a upload to kdump-tools in focal today
<rafaeldtinoco> what are the things you would not be able to do ? are you aware ?
<cascardo> well, since we are at feature freeze, I would need to get it past the SRU queue to get it into focal-proposed
<rafaeldtinoco> yep =)
<rafaeldtinoco> i dont have any questions, i was just finishing rbasak's question
<ddstreet> cascardo are you subscribed, directly or indirectly, to all new bugs for these packages?  If not, are you willing to subscribe yourself and triage and/or own new bugs?
<cascardo> and by feature freeze, it means I should not introduce new features, but mostly fixes, closing bugs
<cascardo> ddstreet: I am currently subscribed to makedumpfile, and I have no problems being subscribed to the other two (if I am not already)
<ddstreet> Thanks, no more q from me
<sil2100> Any other questions?
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> cascardo: I was asking about Focal, which isn't a stable release yet.
<rbasak> So no SRU queue involvement?
<teward> i was about to ask that myself heh
<cascardo> rbasak: there is SRU queue involvement right now because of Feature Freeze, if I understand correctly
<rbasak> cascardo: my question is about making sure you understand Ubuntu development process
<cascardo> before feature freeze, I could just upload to focal-proposed
<cascardo> that is my understanding
<rbasak> cascardo: do you know where to go if you need a feature freeze exception, and where that process is documented?
<teward> but that's not the SRU queue
<sil2100> cascardo: yeah, so it's just a naming thing, the SRU queue is how we specifically call the queue for stable series - there is a focal queue but we don't name it like that
<cascardo> it's an upload queue
<sil2100> cascardo: exactly
<cascardo> and are they reviewed by a different team?
<sil2100> cascardo: and for Feature Freeze it's just a 'soft lock', so things do not go to the upload queue just yet
<cascardo> from what I can read, the feature freeze exception would involve an ACK on a bug by the release team, by CCing ubuntu-release
<cascardo> and I would follow that for minor version releases that include only bug fixes just to be on the safe side
<cascardo> at least until I build enough confidence that my judgement on those is aligned with the release team
<rbasak> I think it might be better for you to continue checking with your current sponsors for these kinds of exceptional cases, whether your application today is approved or not.
<rbasak> Waiting for the release team will take a much longer time I expect.
<cascardo> that makes sense
<sil2100> Any other questions?
<rbasak> cascardo: let's move on from feature freeze. Can you tell me about proposed migration? If you do an upload and you see that it is stuck in the proposed pocket and not moving to the release pocket, what would you do?
<cascardo> I would go through the excuses update page, find out what is the problem for migration
<cascardo> sometimes it happens because bugs are not verified, so I would request for verification once more, or do them by myself
<rbasak> To be clear, my question is about the development release again, not the stable release.
<cascardo> sometimes it happens because of test failures on ADT, so I would investigate those, and try to fix them
<rbasak> OK, thanks. No more questions.
<teward> i have one question following rbasak's.
<teward> and your response.
<teward> other than the excuses page, where else can you get information about what may be holding up a package or might be affecting proposed migration?
<cascardo> I am not familiar with other tools, though I looked it up and just found out about the proposed-migration script, though I don't know where to find it
<teward> no more questions on my end.
<rafaeldtinoco> cascardo: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kexec-tools/+publishinghistory
<rafaeldtinoco> just 1 example
<rafaeldtinoco> on where to get current migration status
<rafaeldtinoco> and publishing history
<sil2100> Ok, I think we're done with questions then?
<cascardo> okay, I used it before to get hold of older versions not in the archive anymore
<sil2100> Let's vote in this case o/
<rafaeldtinoco> yep
<sil2100> #vote Granting cascardo PPU rights for makedumpfile, kexec-tools and crash
<meetingology> Please vote on: Granting cascardo PPU rights for makedumpfile, kexec-tools and crash
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rafaeldtinoco> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rafaeldtinoco
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<sil2100> +0 (I am confident in cascardo's packaging skills, but the answers to archive/release related questions made me feel a bit worried, so for now my vote will be abstaining)
<meetingology> +0 (I am confident in cascardo's packaging skills, but the answers to archive/release related questions made me feel a bit worried, so for now my vote will be abstaining) received from sil2100
<rbasak> -1 reasons to follow
<meetingology> -1 reasons to follow received from rbasak
<teward> -1 also reasons to folow
<meetingology> -1 also reasons to folow received from teward
<rbasak> I have no concerns about the quality of your work in itself, but do think your understanding of processes in the Ubuntu development release is quite muddled. I think you'd benefit from the continued supervision of a sponsor for the time being. Some of my questions covered more exceptional circumstances that you might not have encountered yet, so this might seem a little unfair, but it seems to me
<rbasak> that with a muddled understanding you are likely to unwittingly walk into a conflict with expectations from others when they will inevitably arise, and so remaining under the guidance of a sponsor makes sense. I hope that with some more experience or reading through various bits of documentation you will be ready to reapply soon.
<sil2100> ddstreet: are you still around to vote?
<ddstreet> +0 as I'm traveling and my vote would not change the outcome
<meetingology> +0 as I'm traveling and my vote would not change the outcome received from ddstreet
<teward> I do not question your work quality, however like rbasak says, I think your understanding of the processes in the current dev release are incomplete or confused.  I also believe that some of your statements and understanding of the tools is concerning, and additional guidance in those tools is warranted.  To that end, the confused understanding of the tools and the processes are likely to make you run into provlems as they arise...
<sil2100> Ok, I think we will need tsimonq2's vote in this case
<sil2100> Who does not seem to be present today
<teward> ... especially with the expectations of others or the Release/dev teams, and continued ongoing guidance from a sponsor is warranted.  I also encourage you to inquire with your sponsors about things that you may or may not be sure about even if you are almost certain you are correct, to act as a sounding board to point out any mistakes in processes, etc. you have.
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Granting cascardo PPU rights for makedumpfile, kexec-tools and crash
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:2 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<sil2100> Cliffhanger! Guess we'll have to contact tsimonq2 somehow and make him vote, or carry this over to the next meeting
<teward> sil2100: i propose we bring that vote to email and ask the non-present DMB members (tsimonq2 specifically) to cast their vote.
<teward> since it can be... difficult... to get hold of tsimonq2 sometimes
<RikMills> sil2100: I will ping him on telegram
<bdmurray> Could ddstreet vote after his travels?
<RikMills> yes, circumstances mean tsimonq2 is not always instantly available at the moment
<teward> (he's available in talking to me right now on telegram, as an aside)
<sil2100> cascardo: sorry that we couldn't get your application resolved today - we'll try to do that ASAP and let you know the outcome
<sil2100> This shouldn't take longer than till the next meeting
<cascardo> sil2100: no problems, thanks everyone for reviewing the application
<teward> sil2100: given info in the other channel, and tsimonq2's statement to me, we will have SImon's vote within the hour, but for now I say we move this one along in the "follow up" items to check up with next meeting.
<tsimonq2> Hi.
<teward> oh wait there's the SImon :P
<sil2100> \o/
<cascardo> I find out that the questions were fairly raised, and, in the meantime, I hope I can get better graps of the exceptional processes
<tsimonq2> I will have my vote within the hour.
<tsimonq2> I hate DST.
<sil2100> Ok, let's move on in the meantime so that rcj doesn't have to wait
<sil2100> #subtopic Robert Jennings applying for livecd-rootfs PPU
<sil2100> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rcj/PerPackageUploadLivecdRootfs
<sil2100> rcj: o/
<rcj> Hi, I work on a team developing and delivering Ubuntu images to public clouds.
<rcj> These Ubuntu images are built using livecd-rootfs (ubuntu-cpc project) and I have been contributing to the package through sponsored uploads for several years.  This would be my first upload access in Ubuntu.
<sil2100> Questions please o/
<rbasak> bdmurray: as you're here and you have previously sponsored livecd-rootfs for rcj, any comment please?
<rbasak> rcj: similar questions to you then I guess. What would you do if you want to make a feature change to livecd-rootfs in Focal at this point in the cycle?
<bdmurray> I didn't get a chance to write an endorsement with travel, sprints and stuff like that. But I do endorse rcj's application. livecd-rootfs is kind of special as it isn't really used like a normal package but the cpc team does extensive testing of it.
<tsimonq2> Alright, my vote on cascardo is -1 because I agree with rbasak that more thorough process knowledge would be beneficial.
<tsimonq2> Apologies for being so brief.
<rbasak> bdmurray: thanks!
<tsimonq2> Thanks for attending cascardo, I'd love to see you apply again soon.
<sil2100> tsimonq2: thanks for the vote!
<tsimonq2> Now on to the current topic...
<teward> rcj: I have one question, and this is probably a stupid one, but to confirm: this application is for *you yourself* and not your team, correct?
<teward> there were a couple times you referenced "me and my team" so I want to clarify this point
<sil2100> cascardo: be sure to re-apply soon though!
<rcj> rbasak: If I needed to make a feature change in livecd-rootfs at this stage I would create a bug with MP outlining rationale for the change and risk subscribing ubuntu-release per FFE
<rcj> teward: this is just for me.
<rbasak> rcj: OK, thanks. What about if you wanted to make that change for Bionic?
<tsimonq2> rcj: What's your favorite part about working with livecd-rootfs?
<tsimonq2> I'm going somewhere with this. :P
<rcj> rbasak: I'd SRU with the bug template to highlight testing requirements, impact, and regression potentials
<tsimonq2> (after rbasak of course)
<rcj> rbasak: that was a bit of a mess of an answer as I was reading the next question.  ...
<tsimonq2> Apologies.
<teward> rcj: thank you for clarifying, that was the first question and I wanted to make sure that we were on the same page (I had assumed it was just for you, but I needed that confirmed thanks!)
<rcj> Once I had the SRU template in the bug and the MP I'd upload and get subscribe the sru team for r3eview
<rcj> teward: np
<rbasak> rcj: anything special for it being a feature change in the SRU, which is normally not permitted?
<rcj> rbasak: yeah, so livecd-rootfs is an outlier here in that feature changes do get SRU'd back frequently unlike other packages in the archive which is documented on the SRU wiki for this package
<rbasak> rcj: thanks. Do you have a link to that page please? I just looked and can't find one!
<rcj> rbasak: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#livecd-rootfs
<rbasak> Ah, gotcha, thanks.
<sil2100> Ok, any other questions?
<tsimonq2> See my above question.
<sil2100> Ah, there is one indeed!
<tsimonq2> rcj: What's your favorite part about working with livecd-rootfs?
<sil2100> rcj: did you see tsimonq2's earlier question?
<tsimonq2> That :)
<teward> sorry i got a call for work, reading back and then seeing if I have any other questions.
<tsimonq2> I have to make a small commute quickly.
<rcj> tsimonq2: Favorite part of working on livecd-rootfs?  Well, it's fundamental to the work I do so anything I can do to make it better is a win.  The support for parallel, consistent LP image builds is fantastic.
<tsimonq2> Thanks.
 * rbasak has no more questions
<tsimonq2> I'm ready to vote.
<teward> no more questions from me, also ready to vote
<rafaeldtinoco> im ready as well
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> ddstreet: any questions? I guess you're travelling now, so maybe we'll just proceed if you don't mind
<sil2100> Ok, let's vote
<sil2100> #vote Granting rcj PPU rights for livecd-rootfs
<meetingology> Please vote on: Granting rcj PPU rights for livecd-rootfs
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<tsimonq2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tsimonq2
<teward> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from teward
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<gaughen> query rcj
<gaughen> bah
<sil2100> HAH
<sil2100> ;)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<rafaeldtinoco> +1 for being a ppu application and a *special* pkg - sru wise - that rcj is already familiar with based on merges pointed in his application wiki page. I see he seeks coredev in the future, but he also says "Make time for general distro work". I would encourage rcj to start doing this distro work sooner than later.
<meetingology> +1 for being a ppu application and a *special* pkg - sru wise - that rcj is already familiar with based on merges pointed in his application wiki page. I see he seeks coredev in the future, but he also says "Make time for general distro work". I would encourage rcj to start doing this distro work sooner than later. received from rafaeldtinoco
<gaughen> shush
<teward> gaughen: i guess your / key is broken :P
<tsimonq2> Agreed rafaeldtinoco.
<sil2100> rafaeldtinoco: agreed!
<teward> also agree with rafaeldtinoco
<gaughen> :-)
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Granting rcj PPU rights for livecd-rootfs
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tsimonq2> gaughen: I assume it's to give rcj a congrats. ;)
<sil2100> (ended vote already since +5 can not be overriden)
<gaughen> you know it!
<rcj> thank you everyone
<sil2100> rcj: congratulations!
<gaughen> and to tell him I was impressed with his answer on "favorite part"
<tsimonq2> Congrats!
<sil2100> Yeah, I guess my answer to the 'favorite part' would be "nothing"
<rbasak> So the next steps are https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_a_successful_application
<sil2100> j/k of course, I love livecd-rootfs myself
<gaughen> sil2100, lol
<sil2100> rbasak: maybe someone
<sil2100> uh
<sil2100> rbasak: maybe someone from the new members could sign up for that?
<sil2100> As a learning exercise?
<rbasak> Sure. Any volunteers?
<tsimonq2> sil2100: I wasn't looking for a valid answer as much as I was looking for an answer from someone who has thought about it. :P
<rbasak> We'll then give that person two meeting actions (as per the docs)
<teward> i'll be happy to announce the successful applicants
 * tsimonq2 voluntells teward.
<sil2100> #action teward to e-mail the relevant ML after the successful application
<meetingology> ACTION: teward to e-mail the relevant ML after the successful application
<rbasak> We still need to discuss the meeting schedule going forwards
<sil2100> teward: will you also deal with granting the PPU?
<teward> sil2100: not without guidance from an incumbent on what to send to whom, because I'm new to the board (the announcement email is the easy part)
<rbasak> teward: it's all documented I hope!
<rbasak> teward: where it isn't, feel free to ask me.
<teward> ack
<teward> rbasak: prepare for inbound question stream
<rbasak> The announcement email also needs to go to a list of prescribed places
<sil2100> Ok, assigning to teward then! Remember: feel free to ask whenever in doubt
<sil2100> #action teward to adjust the ACLs for rcj's new PPU
<meetingology> ACTION: teward to adjust the ACLs for rcj's new PPU
<sil2100> Ok, moving on!
<teward> yep, that's the plan.  gotta fix a switch that just died though here at work first, so 30-min break then lunch :P
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> rbasak: can you lead the meeting schedule discussion?
<rbasak> Sure
<rbasak> So we've had problems with DMB member attendence in the past.
<rbasak> It might be different with the new DMB.
<rbasak> One suggestion is to ask all DMB members immediately after an election if they are happy with the current schedule, or if they'd like to change the schedule so they can attend.
<rbasak> We do also have to consider the needs of applicants, of course, but if DMB members cannot attend then that clearly cannot work.
<rbasak> So I'd like to have a vote to ratify the current schedule, which is every two weeks on a Monday, alternating between 1500 UTC and 1900 UTC, phasing set by today's meeting.
<rbasak> If you expect to be able to make these meetings, please vote yes. Otherwise, please vote no, and we'll then discuss what we can do about changing the schedule.
<rbasak> Ultimately it's down to us as a group. We can change our own schedule as we wish. Under the current rules, that means that if four of us vote +1 to change the schedule, it will change.
<rbasak> Does this approach sound OK to everyone? Any questions?
<rafaeldtinoco> sgtm
<teward> yes for teh most part - there's a meeting in a month and a half I will be out that time for, details to folow because it could get canceled due to 'concerns' in the world.
<sil2100> All good here, should I start the vote then?
<teward> otherwise sounds good to me
<rbasak> I think it's fine to miss the occasional meeting. We all have lives.
<rbasak> But the expectation IMHO should be that we all expect to attend the majority of meetings.
<rbasak> sil2100: please do
<tsimonq2> +1
<rafaeldtinoco> +1
<teward> +1
<sil2100> #vote Current DMB schedule to remain as-is
<meetingology> Please vote on: Current DMB schedule to remain as-is
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<teward> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from teward
<tsimonq2> +1
<sil2100> (please vote now ;) had issues with WORDS)
<meetingology> +1 received from tsimonq2
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<rafaeldtinoco> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rafaeldtinoco
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<rbasak> OK so the current schedule is staying, but for the record it's probably useful to get everyone's votes.
<sil2100> ddstreet: are you still aroundish to cast your vote? I guess we can query you for it later
<rbasak> I guess we'll have to wait.
<rbasak> But that's already helpful. Thanks everyone!
<sil2100> Let's get in touch with him later, but yes, the timing will stay it seems
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Current DMB schedule to remain as-is
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> Do we have anything else for today?
<rbasak> If ddstreet can't make the current schedule, or if anyone's circumstances change, we can still the schedule.
<rbasak> still *change* the schedule
<rbasak> Nobody should feel that the current schedule is set in stone
<sil2100> rbasak: exactly
<sil2100> +1 to that
<rbasak> And even if I can make the current schedule, if someone cannot, I'm still in favour of exploring changing it.
<rbasak> That's all from me. Thanks!
<sil2100> I think we're good then
<sil2100> Since this meeting already took longer than expected, let's finish
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Mar  9 16:34:02 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-03-09-15.05.moin.txt
<rbasak> sil2100: thank you for chairing!
<sil2100> Thanks everyone! This was a very productive meeting
<sil2100> I'll clean up the agenda page
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-03-10
<cpaelzer> hiho
<sarnold> huhu
<doko> o/
<cpaelzer> giving everyone 3 min to show up
<cpaelzer> didrocks: jamespage: ddstreet:
<cpaelzer> who else did I miss?
<jamespage> o/
<jamespage> hello
<cpaelzer> ok lets get this officially started
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 10 14:02:57 2020 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic:
<cpaelzer> hiho, here are doko jamespage and sarnold o/ we are missing didrocks and ddstreet atm
<cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cpaelzer> Well, doko ddstreet and myself have met at the sprint
<cpaelzer> I have an action item to restructure the wiki pages a bit
<cpaelzer> and to add some of my templates for filing/reviewing there
<cpaelzer> but I didn't get to it yet
<cpaelzer> still an open action
<didrocks> hey
<cpaelzer> was there anything else open by you?
<cpaelzer> actions I mean
<didrocks> sorry, busy discussing on #u-desktop
<cpaelzer> np didrocks, glad to have you here
<didrocks> I have alsa-* that I will tackle tomorrow morning as a FYI
<cpaelzer> ok no further actions it seems - lets check new and incomplete MIRs next then
<cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: New MIRs
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> and
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
<cpaelzer> jamespage: masakari is in there still?
<cpaelzer> I thought that was ready to move
<cpaelzer> jamespage: you fixed all that was asked for right?
 * cpaelzer is re-rading that case
<jamespage> lemme check - I thought I had done - might just not have the right final status for promotion
<cpaelzer> yep, but we have doko here who can do it right away
<cpaelzer> jamespage: subscribed to masakari-monitors as well?
<cpaelzer> oh I see there is a dependency from masakari
<cpaelzer> jamespage: https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
<cpaelzer> did you see python-sqlalchemy-utils and python-arrow
<jamespage> hmm
<jamespage> lemme dig into that the world must have moved since i raised the MIR
<cpaelzer> python-arrow has an existign and ready to promote MIR bug
<cpaelzer> from our old mailman3 efforts
<cpaelzer> all you need to do there is subscribe the openstack Team
<cpaelzer> but python-sqlalchemy-utils I have no idea yet
<cpaelzer> jamespage: could you subscribe openstack to python-arrow then we can set all but the alchemy to the right state at least
<jamespage> yep
<cpaelzer> I updated the bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/masakari/+bug/1815991/comments/10
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1815991 in masakari-monitors (Ubuntu) "[MIR] masakari and masakari-monitors" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<jamespage> added ubuntu-openstack as subscriber for masakari-* and python-arrow
<jamespage> sqla-utils looks needed
<cpaelzer> and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-arrow/+bug/1820213/comments/3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1820213 in python-arrow (Ubuntu) "[MIR] python-arrow as dependency of mailman3" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<cpaelzer> ok, jamespage you will get back to us once you know what the python alchemy is really about then ok?
<cpaelzer> moving on to the next in the list
<jamespage> yes
<cpaelzer> staying with the openstack Team for now
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/neutron/+bug/1864667
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1864667 in neutron (Ubuntu) "[MIR] neutron-ovn-metadata-agent" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> netron is in main
<cpaelzer> jamespage: you have to tach coreycb on MIR bugs a bit it seems :-)
<cpaelzer> s/tach/teach
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-octavia-lib/+bug/1864666 seems similar
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1864666 in python-octavia-lib (Ubuntu) "[MIR] python-octavia-lib, ovn-octavia-provider" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> both need to change the bug tasks to be correctly spotted
<jamespage> cpaelzer: binary only promotion
<cpaelzer> are these 20.04 material or for >=20.10?
<jamespage> ovn-metadata-agent I'd like to get for 20.04
<cpaelzer> sry, can you explain what you mean by " binary only promotion" ?
<jamespage> neutron-ovn-metadata-agent is
<jamespage> as it comes from neutron right?
<cpaelzer> it is only in proposed atm
<cpaelzer> neutron-ovn-metadata-agent | 2:16.0.0~b2~git2020020712.d5b33ffc77-0ubuntu2 | focal-proposed | all
<cpaelzer> yes
<cpaelzer> Source: neutron
<cpaelzer> there would be no need for a new MIR on this IMHO
<cpaelzer> it will show up in https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.html like it does in https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.html now
<cpaelzer> jamespage: as it is listed as "Binary only movements to universe" is there no dependency holding it in?
<cpaelzer> if so you'd need a seed change but no new MIR
<cpaelzer> doko: if src packages in main build new binaries they usually go to main automatically right?
<cpaelzer> and later get listed as "Binary only movements to universe" if there is no dep holding them in
<jamespage> cpaelzer: no I think it still needs seeding for that
<cpaelzer> that might be true
<jamespage> I'll get that sorted
<cpaelzer> but you can kill the MIR bug
<doko> cpaelzer: no, manually, but they don't require a MIR
<cpaelzer> is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-octavia-lib/+bug/1864666 the same case?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1864666 in python-octavia-lib (Ubuntu) "[MIR] python-octavia-lib, ovn-octavia-provider" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> no that is a new source in universe
<cpaelzer>  ovn-octavia-provider | 0.0.1~git2020022414.000049c-0ubuntu1 | focal/universe | source
<cpaelzer>  python-octavia-lib | 1.5.0-0ubuntu1 | focal/universe | source
<cpaelzer> as well
<cpaelzer> I added the bug task
<cpaelzer> jamespage: will you review those to keep the loop with corey on needed fixes close?
<jamespage> yes
<cpaelzer> ok assigned
<jamespage> I've pushed the seed change for neutron-ovn-metadata-agent but its stuck in proposed atm
<cpaelzer> ok
<cpaelzer> is python-octavia-lib, ovn-octavia-provider at least >=20.10 then?
<cpaelzer> security Team will explode due to review pressure :-)
<cpaelzer> ok I thnik we are good on this one
<cpaelzer> next and last in the list is
<didrocks> that hasnât happened yet? :)
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-ucm-conf/+bug/1862776
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1862776 in alsa-ucm-conf (Ubuntu) "[MIR] alsa-ucm-conf & alsa-topology-conf (b-d of alsa-lib)" [High,New]
<didrocks> thatâs the alsa things I will do tomorrow morning
<cpaelzer> filed by doko as it shows up https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<cpaelzer> didrocks: will you do a MIR review or will this go another path to resolve?
<didrocks> cpaelzer: MIR review and fix if necessary
<didrocks> if all ok, just promote to unblock proposed
<cpaelzer> if you expect to need security review let them know early
<cpaelzer> I have assigned you on the bug for now
<cpaelzer> thanks didrocks
<didrocks> yw
<cpaelzer> wow a lot of new things, lets check the incomplete list for new entries
<cpaelzer> #topic Incomplete bugs / questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Incomplete bugs / questions
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> the only one updated since we spoke the last time is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ec2-instance-connect/+bug/1835114
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1835114 in ec2-instance-connect (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ec2-instance-connect" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<cpaelzer> things are going on between rbalint and sarnold
<cpaelzer> sarnold:  in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ec2-instance-connect/+bug/1835114/comments/29 you acked for security right
<sarnold> cpaelzer: yes
<cpaelzer> hmm, so they got you and by that the security ack
<cpaelzer> it still is one of the cases that every engineer looking at raises more eyebrows than he should have
<cpaelzer> is anyone willing and has the time to re-check this from the MIR POV?
<cpaelzer> I've opened quite some "please fix" in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ec2-instance-connect/+bug/1835114/comments/5
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1835114 in ec2-instance-connect (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ec2-instance-connect" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<cpaelzer> but a lot of things changed
<cpaelzer> and it might be time to have a fresh look at it
<cpaelzer> so I'd appreciate if it would not be me
<cpaelzer> as I'm infected by my past on this
<cpaelzer> doko: do you think you could do that
<cpaelzer> you are closest to rbalint (team wise) to make him pay if things are not right ...
<cpaelzer> we lost doko :-/
<cpaelzer> anyone else up to re-review this?
<doko> sorry
<doko> cpaelzer: 1835114?
<cpaelzer> yes
<doko> I can do that
<cpaelzer> thank you a lot
<cpaelzer> I'll be assigning you
<cpaelzer> ok last entry on the agenda
<cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Any other business?
<cpaelzer> I guess we all got and siad engouh today :-)
<cpaelzer> missing ddstreet is the only topic for me :-/
<cpaelzer> next time then ...
<cpaelzer> ok I'll close in 10 then
<rbalint> cpaelzer, sarnold  acked the mir
<cpaelzer> he acked the security review
<rbalint> cpaelzer, yes
<cpaelzer> the MIR Teams ack was still open
<cpaelzer> as I said above this needs a fresh view and doko was so kind to agree to re-look at it
<cpaelzer> if all the fixes and discussions that I saw flying by really resolved it you'll get that ack as well soon and can go on
<cpaelzer> otherwise doko will let you know
<cpaelzer> ok closing for today then ...
<rbalint> cpaelzer, thanks, i tried to address rharper's commets and i'm waiting for feedback from him and from cpc to commit to implement tests in some form
<cpaelzer> ok good to know thanks rbalint
<cpaelzer> rbalint: if you happen to have the chance to summarize the "still open parts" of it on the bug that would be helpful to everyone
<doko> thanks, and bye
<cpaelzer> cu
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 10 14:37:32 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-03-10-14.02.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all
<didrocks> thx cpaelzer and everyone!
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-03-12
<bdmurray> o/
<bdmurray> Is there an emoji for elbow bumps yet?
<rbalint> o/
<rbalint> o>
<rbalint> bdmurray, keep being oldscool :-)
<waveform> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 12 15:01:37 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform)
<juliank> *
<bdmurray> mwhudson rbalint vorlon bdmurray doko waveform xnox sil2100 tdaitx infinity juliank
<juliank> :(
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> rbalint: its you
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * got kodi 18.5 migrated to release
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * unattended-upgrade fixes
<rbalint> * systemd 245 for Debian
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * glibc 2.31 migration:
<vorlon>   * worked through all the possible options for libc6 vs libxcrypt1, found a solution
<vorlon>   * working through autopkgtest regressions, so far nothing pointing to glibc bugs
<vorlon>   * will probably migrate today
<vorlon> (done)
<bdmurray> writing / discussing ubuntu-security-status specification
<bdmurray> uploaded apport fix to Focal, Eoan for LP: #1848064
<bdmurray> submitted RT re adding more retracers to the production ET
<bdmurray> uploaded apport to Focal with a fix for new glibc output
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848064 in apport (Ubuntu Eoan) "/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all:PermissionError:/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all@168:collect_info:process_report" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848064
<bdmurray> merged tdaitx's fix for LP: #1853383
<bdmurray> investigated, worked around apport bug LP: #1866347
<bdmurray> investigated issue with ddeb-retriever
<bdmurray> submitted ddeb-retriever MP re Disco
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853383 in apport (Ubuntu Eoan) "autopkgtest regression in test_add_proc_info" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853383
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1866347 in apport (Ubuntu) "/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all:AssertionError:/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all@168:collect_info:process_report:add_gdb_info:crash_signature_addresses:_address_to_offset:_build_proc_maps_cache" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1866347
<bdmurray> tested 802.11ac wireless with 20.04, 19.10 and new firmware
<bdmurray> worked with waveform to put raspi json data in meta-release branch
<bdmurray> updated changelogs.ubuntu.com for the above
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> doko:
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Working on uc20 boot sequence
<waveform> * Updated linux-firmware-raspi2 for sponsorship (LP: #1862760, LP: #1862146)
<waveform> * Investigating 802.11ac issue (LP: #1862760)
<waveform> * Worked on JSON for raspi imager (now sent to foundation for activation)
<waveform> * Finished pictl (full test suite and docs now complete, just packaging)
<waveform> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1862760 in linux-raspi2-5.3 (Ubuntu Focal) "Unreliable 802.11ac connection on our raspi images" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1862760
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1862146 in linux-firmware-raspi2 (Ubuntu Focal) "Duplicate file in linux-firmware-raspi2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1862146
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> Glibc fun discussions
<xnox> UC20 pi discussions
<xnox> S390x FFe for secure execution fun
<xnox> Fixing command-not-found for python
<xnox> Sprint last week
<xnox> Unbroke debian-installer / classic server d-i iso
<xnox> Started TLS v1.2 technical content for the Ubuntu Blog
<xnox> Done
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Back from travel
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Kernel SRUs
<sil2100> - Made a quick change to ubuntu-image to disable console-conf on images
<sil2100> - netplan:
<sil2100>   * Rebased the manual configuration branch for networkd, fixed per review comments
<doko> argh, tz diff again
<sil2100>   * Updated the NetworkManager read-write spec, working on it a bit
<sil2100>   * Prepared initial version of the SR-IOV spec, reading up on teh technology and tools
<sil2100>   * Worked more on the read-write plugin, some testing done on KVM
<sil2100> - HWE sync up meeting, poking MAAS people about stuff
<sil2100> - Off tomorrow
<sil2100> (done)
<tdaitx> * apport security backports for xenial, bionic, eoan (LP: #1853383, LP: #1851806, LP: #1854237) updated and send to the security team
<tdaitx> * running jck tests on jenkins, investigating javatest plugin failure to process test results, testing automated runs
<tdaitx> * testing how to better black/whitelist jtreg tests to split stable/flaky openjdk tests
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - will be taking a couple days off next (or the other) week as I'll be finally moving to the new apartment
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853383 in apport (Ubuntu Eoan) "autopkgtest regression in test_add_proc_info" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853383
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1854237 in apport (Ubuntu Disco) "autopkgtests fail after security fixes" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1854237
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * apt 2.0
<juliank> * sponsored maas 1:0.6
<juliank> * uploaded grub with
<juliank>   - smbios --linux change (https://code.launchpad.net/~juliank/grub/+git/ubuntu/+merge/380548)
<juliank>   - always try EFI handover change (LP: #1864533)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1864533 in grub2 (Ubuntu Bionic) "grub wrongly booting via bios entry point instead of efi when secureboot disabled" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1864533
<juliank> * SRU grub/bionic with the second change, still gotta upload eoan I guess :/
<juliank> * finalized the logic in debian-cd to generate the logic in grub.cfg to pick the oem kernel on oem devices
<juliank> * sponsored linux-firmware-raspi2 for waveform
<bdmurray> juliank: all done?
<juliank> yes, sorry
 * juliank is doing expenses as well
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<doko> bdmurray: you were ignoring me ...
<doko>  - packaging glibc-2.31, uploading, rinsing, ...
<doko>  - new GCC releases
<doko>  - fixing autopkg test failures for various migrations
<doko>  - Made LLVM 10 the default, problems on s390x.
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> doko: I pinged you earlier
<bdmurray> but sorry
<xnox> doko:  llvm problems on s390x?
<bdmurray> okay, sorting by date then
<bdmurray> bug 1866841 seems like a desktop team one
<ubottu> bug 1866841 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Add chrome-gnome-shell to ubuntu-desktop recommends" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1866841
<vorlon> xnox: something something kernel test suite
<xnox> vorlon:  ah, don't care =0
<doko> xnox: yes, linux autopkg tests and postgres. communicated upstream
<bdmurray> bug 1866413
<ubottu> bug 1866413 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "bgrt ubuntu-logo watermark is too low-res" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1866413
<xnox> i think that's desktop team, but this morning they claim that they don't have time to work on the new theme that regresses a lot
<vorlon> should we revert it all?
<xnox> vorlon:  need seb128 / Wimpress
<Laney> I don't think that's an accurate reflection of what seb128 said tbh
<xnox> Laney:  hello =)
<Laney> hello
<xnox> Laney:  there was newer artwork too, right?
<juliank> I'll have a look later
<xnox> was juliank using the old or new artwork?
<juliank> I didn't see seb's response
<Laney> Looks like it's waiting for a reply from the reporter to me
<Laney> :)
<juliank> It's not terribly bad, but it's a bit fuzzyy on the edges
<bdmurray> okay lets move on and julian will double check
<bdmurray> or provide evidence
<xnox> juliank:  i think it is meant to have "glow"
<bdmurray> bug 1866055
<ubottu> bug 1866055 in fwupd (Ubuntu) "Firmware updates aren't being applied on reboot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1866055
<bdmurray> this is tagged champagne
<xnox> juliank:  ^ ?
<xnox> is that the same as the shim regression for fwupd?
<juliank> yes!
<vorlon> yes
<xnox> close as duplicate?
<vorlon> juliank: AIUI this regression was still being tracked as part of an existing card for the shim update
<vorlon> juliank: is that correct?  are you working on this?
<juliank> Working is a strong word
<juliank> I submitted it to shim upstream
<bdmurray> Contemplating?
<vorlon> hmm :)
<vorlon> ok
<juliank> https://github.com/rhboot/shim/issues/194
<bdmurray> okay so juliank will look for a shim bug which we can make this a duplicate of
<bdmurray> bug 1865436
<ubottu> bug 1865436 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Locked splash screen prevents boot every other time" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1865436
<vorlon> ... filed on grub?
<bdmurray> This seems important
<vorlon> the splash screen described is plymouth
<vorlon> I'll reassign
<bdmurray> Shoudl we card this?
<vorlon> probably
<Laney> I'll stop interrupting your meeting if you want, but that sounds like bug #1865959 to me
<ubottu> bug 1865959 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "plymouth hook hangs waiting for input" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1865959
<Laney> think you should ask him if it is fixed after updates
<vorlon> the "every other time" behavior probably relates to the fact that grub falls back to different settings on failed boot
<vorlon> Laney: the hook is at runtime, this bug is at boot time?
<bdmurray> Laney: We are happy to have you here
<Laney> vorlon: Right, the theme didn't get installed correctly or something
<vorlon> ok
<seb128> vorlon, maybe it was the 'passphrase entry doesn't display because initramfs lacks the needed assets"
<vorlon> then yes it could be that
<seb128> would match on the report date at least
<Laney> Given the date the bug was filed is before those fixes, I think this is probably the likely answer
<bdmurray> Okay, I'll ping cody
<vorlon> I've followed up on the bug
<bdmurray> seb128, Laney: is bugt 1866841 something y'all can look at?
<vorlon> and I'll card it so we follow throug
<bdmurray> thanks vorlon
<seb128> bug #1866841
<ubottu> bug 1866841 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Add chrome-gnome-shell to ubuntu-desktop recommends" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1866841
<Laney> bdmurray: sure
<seb128> bdmurray, yes, but that's a nack
<Laney> I dunno how to flag that onto our list though, maybe we should subscribe to ubuntu-meta or something
<seb128> security team doesn't like that feature iirc
<Laney> sorry, don't want to interrupt, you can carry on
<bdmurray> that's fine, I just want it to go away. ;-)
<bdmurray> Laney: yes, subscribe to ubuntu-meta
<Laney> same for server too probably
<bdmurray> bug 1865309
<ubottu> bug 1865309 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "openssh-server removed during bionic->focal upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1865309
<vorlon> carded
<vorlon> next?
<xnox> i nominate newemployee2
<bdmurray> bug 1865161
<ubottu> bug 1865161 in casper (Ubuntu) "Written "press return to shutdown the computer" does not appear." [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1865161
<xnox> also regression with new spinner theme
<bdmurray> Is that related to this bug?
<bdmurray> We'll target and card that.
<bdmurray> bug 1864644
<ubottu> bug 1864644 in systemd (Ubuntu) "I get logged out immediately after login to an X session (QXL Xorg driver on kernel 5.4)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1864644
<bdmurray> let's target and card that
<vorlon> done
<bdmurray> bug 1864433
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1864433 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1864433). The error has been logged
<bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/boost1.71/+bug/1864433
<rbalint> we could pick LP: #1865209, too with the fix
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1865209 in boost1.71 (Ubuntu) "Boost 1.71 missing python3/numpy3 symlinks" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1865209
<rbalint> xnox, ^
<xnox> rbalint:  i think i want to cherrypick with the other boost fix
<xnox> yeap, agree
<bdmurray> bug 1864191
<ubottu> bug 1864191 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "focal-server d-i image doesn't detect network hardware" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1864191
<vorlon> that's the one that should have been fixed by xnox's work
<vorlon> xnox: you'll close the bug?
<bdmurray> bug 1863414
<ubottu> bug 1863414 in python3-defaults (Ubuntu) "Have many "/usr/lib/python3.8/subprocess.py:838: RuntimeWarning: line buffering (buffering=1) isn't supported in binary mode, the default buffer size will be used" on simple APT usage" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1863414
<doko> there's a patch in Debian
<bdmurray> doko will upload and fix this
<bdmurray> bug 1862503
<ubottu> bug 1862503 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer crashed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1862503
<bdmurray> okay, I think that's good for bugs
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon> [LINK] https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/focal/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> libyaml-libyaml-perl, already turfed
<vorlon> pastedeploy: waveform: this was assigned to you, do you need help?
<waveform> vorlon, no - should be okay
<vorlon> ok, will it be fixed this week?
<waveform> should have more time now the imager stuff is done
<waveform> so, yes
<vorlon> licensecheck: tdaitx this is yours; status?
<tdaitx> vorlon: only looked at test back at last meeting, forgot to card it and didn't look at it later
<vorlon> tdaitx: ok, but you'll get it before next meeting?
<tdaitx> vorlon: yeah, I am carding it
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> libhtml-form-perl: doko this is yours, are you still on it?
<vorlon> openssh is blocked on MIR, nothing for us
<vorlon> libselinux, just blocked on ruby transition, server team's not us
<vorlon> libsemanage, the same
<tdaitx> btw, we should update update_excuses_by_team.html to add id elements in the html so we can use a #fragment link
<vorlon> python-apt is the apt transition; juliank was there anything still missing there?
<juliank> vorlon: waiting on ruby
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> ok, now we're to the new ones since last meeting
<vorlon> lintian
<vorlon> xnox: can you take lintian?
<vorlon> packagekit, libapt-pkg-perl are apt
<vorlon> I'll take python3-defaults
<vorlon> icu
<rbalint> i can take lintian
<vorlon> who is driving this transition to completion?  doko?
<vorlon> rbalint: ok
<juliank> vorlon: FWIW, I uploaded ruby-debian now to rebuild against new apt
<vorlon> juliank: thanks
<vorlon> doko is on icu
<vorlon> boost1.71, brltty, pyicu, xfsprogs are the icu transition
<vorlon> autodep8, I'll take a look
<vorlon> libnss-db, gcc-9 just wait for glibc, which is going in today
<vorlon> perl was the no-change rebuild that wasn't critical, but I'll follow through on these
<bdmurray> we are running over
<vorlon> base-files only blocked on libxcrypt, which will go today
<vorlon> ok, autodep8 moved to xnox
<vorlon> and gcc-10, shadow only blocked on glibc, libxcrypt
<vorlon> so we're done
<sil2100> \o/
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> I'm gonna be out a couple of days next week
<juliank> I'm out the next days, back on Wed
<bdmurray> Mon, Tue
<juliank> mee too
<juliank> also Fri (tomorrow) for me
<Laney> jibel's been flagging https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/livecd-rootfs/+bug/1864252 as not-really-fixed, can someone check again perhaps?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1864252 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu Focal) "preseeded snap installs fail in images" [High,Fix released]
<vorlon> I'm out next Tuesday
<sil2100> I'm out tomorrow
<juliank> I'm hungry
<sil2100> Laney: hm
<bdmurray> sil2100: Can you test it?
<xnox> Laney:  we had a new livecd-rootfs uploads
<vorlon> Laney: I think when mwhudson comes online he will look at that again, given the followup
<xnox> Laney:  i can test things
<xnox> Laney:  and ping with mwhudson
<rbalint> i may be out for a few days, too
<bdmurray> Be sure to send email regarding days out and update the team calendar.
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 12 16:06:48 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-03-12-15.01.moin.txt
<Laney> ok thanks!
<juliank> o/
<rbalint>  o/
<mwhudson> Laney: well my breakage and fix definitely only affected the server iso\
<mwhudson> it's possible desktop has been broken again by something else
<Laney> mwhudson: I guess, didn't look into it myself tbh
<mwhudson> argl i very cleverly zsyncing current and not pending
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-03-13
<kokoye2007> Hola
<kokoye2007> next meeting at 13 April ?
