#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-15
<daker> done
<godbyk> back
<godbyk> daker: okay, let me add it to the branch here.
<godbyk> daker, I've pushed it to the branch.
<godbyk> so let's get yours cleaned up now
<godbyk> run 'bzr status' and paste the results.
<daker> oh shit i have delete the folder
<daker> i am getting back the branch
<godbyk> daker: you deleted your branch or just the daker/ site?
<godbyk> if you deleted your branch, that's okay.  you can just 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual' and you'll be fine.
<daker> i delete the forlder /home/daker/ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> daker: that's okay. just 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual' and you'll have a clean branch with your website too.
<godbyk> (easier than cleaning up what you had, even. :-))
<daker> that what i think
<daker> a clean branch comes from the source branch :)
<godbyk> daker, your site is up at: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/daker/
<godbyk> for now, you'll have to make your links relative, since your site is living in a subdirectory.
<daker> oki
<daker> my website is not there
<godbyk> So your workflow with bzr will look like this:
<godbyk> 1. run 'bzr pull' to make sure your branch is up to date.
<godbyk> 2. make changes to your website
<godbyk> 3. run 'bzr pull' again
<godbyk> 4. run 'bzr commit -m "notes about what you changed"'
<godbyk> 5. run 'bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual'
<godbyk> then start those steps over again when you want to make more changes.
<godbyk> daker: your website isn't where?
<daker> yes
<daker> hi is
<daker> i made a little changes for the links
<daker> daker@daker-laptop:~/ubuntu-manual$ bzr push --no-strict lp:ubuntu-manual
<daker> No new revisions to push.
<godbyk> daker: what does 'bzr status' return?
<godbyk> did you run 'bzr commit'?
<daker> sorry no
<daker> if i dont want to give a message for the comit ?
<godbyk> no problem. it takes a while to get used to working with bzr.
<godbyk> You have to give some sort of message. It's useful to us when we look at the logs.
<daker> oki
<godbyk> So if you fixed a spelling error, just say, 'Fixed a spelling error.'
<godbyk> It doesn't have to be a lengthy message. Just let us know what changes you made.
<daker> godbyk,  the http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/daker/ wil be up in few minutes ?
<godbyk> daker: yes. it updates every 30 minutes.
<daker> oki
<daker> i ll made the pot file for translations next times
<daker> see now
<daker> ill be back
<daker> back
<daker> godbyk, how can i run quickshot ?
<godbyk> daker: you have check it out from bzr:  'bzr branch lp:quickshot'
<godbyk> then go into the quickshot/ directory and run 'quickly run'
<godbyk> (you'll need to have quickly installed: 'sudo apt-get install quickly' before you start, though.)
<godbyk> quickshot doesn't really do anything yet, though.
<daker> oki
<daker> thanks
<daker> anthor thing
<daker> so i workin in local(php) so i need to put my work in /var/www
<godbyk> you could make /var/www a symlink that points to ~/ubuntu-manual/website/daker/
<godbyk> if the only thing in /var/www is your ubuntu-manual site, you can delete the /var/www/ dir (or rename it)
<godbyk> then cd /var
<godbyk> and: sudo ln -s /path/to/ubuntu-manual/website/daker /var/www
<daker> sudo ln -s /path/to/ubuntu-manual/website/daker /var/www/daker-remake
<godbyk> that will work, too.
<godbyk> then go to http://127.0.0.1/daker-remake/
 * ubuntujenkins can't sleep
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I've got a few quickshot bugs you can work on as long as you're awake. :-P
<ubuntujenkins> I have fixed the last one you filled :-P fire away
<godbyk> I'm going through the irc log and adding in screenshots and trying to consolidate some things into a little report for you guys.
<ubuntujenkins> wow thats extensive and very much appreciated
<daker> ubuntujenkins, http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/daker/?home
<ubuntujenkins> it works daker much eaiser that way
<daker> so we have juste to put the pot file for the translations
<ubuntujenkins> why on the download page is there 10.10 in the drop down box. 10.10 isn't avalible yet.
<daker> juste for test
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<godbyk> for the initial version of the website, we can leave out that whole dropbox (since there's only the one choice).
<godbyk> but we'll want it in the future.
<godbyk> daker: can the site detect what language my browser is using and use the appropriate translation automatically?
<daker> its can be done :)
<ubuntujenkins> that would be anoying if I wanted to look at another language for fun/ other people
<godbyk> you'll still be able to download other languages
<godbyk> it'll just default to your own language
<ubuntujenkins> i see makes sense
 * ubuntujenkins blames its late at night
<daker> godbyk, good in php ?
<godbyk> daker: used to be
<ubuntujenkins> I think TommyBrunn can do php
<daker> oki :)
<sebsebseb> Hi
<daker> so i have next time to add the pot file for translations where can i upload it ?
<ubuntujenkins> hi sebsebseb
<sebsebseb> just updated my vm,  now I get the boot up :) after plymouth update,  not that bad,  but  Mandriva's is still way better
<sebsebseb> also purple icions, well since they aren't all there places looks a bit odd
<ubuntujenkins> nice to see the ui freeze is being paid attention to
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: yeah I know what you mean
<sebsebseb> quite a few graphical changes after that
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: which is good really, since  what we saw back then, wasn't that good
<ubuntujenkins> I don't understand mandriva they make people pay i tried it for about 30mins and then realised i had to pay and then went back to ubuntu
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: no you don't have to pay at all
<sebsebseb> three versions
<sebsebseb> well four if you include Mandriva cooker the one that they keep on updating the development version
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: Mandriva Free only free software,  a 64bit and 32bit version
<ubuntujenkins> i just tried the one on linux format disc
<sebsebseb> Mandriva One 32bit and 64bit,  comes with  MP3 codec even
<sebsebseb> uh
<sebsebseb> no 64bit version for that one I mean
<sebsebseb> for some reason no 64bit version,  since to much effort for the company or whatever,  but there is or might be a community version of Mandriva One 64bit
<sebsebseb> Power Pack is paid for,  that's support and commercial apps,  plus they got  some other version now,  instant on or something, again paid for
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: Mandriva  used to have the market before Ubuntu came along
<sebsebseb> the desktop market
<sebsebseb> it was the most used distro on the desktop and lap tops
<ubuntujenkins> wow I might give it ago when i get a moment
<sebsebseb> it goes back to 1998
<sebsebseb> used to be Mandrake untill they had to change name to Mandriva, because of legal issues
<sebsebseb> plus something about the logo,  in fact I got a link to give you,  about the history and so on
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I am rather impressed with it,  I used to really like Ubuntu, but not so much anymore
<sebsebseb> so now basically if  it's a new Desktop Linux user, and they want to use Facebook and such,  i'll probably recommend Ubuntu,  because social menu that will be in 10.04
<sebsebseb> or maybe if they want to buy music since the Ubuntu One Music Store
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntu music store still isn't in
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I read that it probaby will be in the beta
<sebsebseb> so people can try it
<sebsebseb> or I should say I read that it will be in the beta,  or that was the  Ubuntu UK podcast that told me :D
<ubuntujenkins> 7digital is competative in priceing, ithink it was in ubuntu uk podcast
<sebsebseb> anyway if they don't care about those kind of features,  I might still recommend Ubuntu,  but  Mandriva is rather nice, and really since it's got a nice graphical control centre,  parentol controls and easy way to turn off  pulse audio,  it's really more user friendly than Ubuntu
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: just with the latest version I had a few little issues, nothing major though
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I am not so keen on all these changes  Ubuntu has done to Gnome, it started with 9.04
<ubuntujenkins> I love they changes except the buttons to the left thing but that can be chnaged
<sebsebseb> also  the automatic shut down counter feature, being removed, that's  a bit sad really
<ubuntujenkins> they should have an option to bring it back
<sebsebseb> indeed, just like there should be an option to  have  shut down and log out in system menu.  when  got edited fusa fast user account switcher, which is now also linked to me menu
<sebsebseb> that's something else, should be able to remove the me menu, whilst having the social features
<sebsebseb> uh I meant IM features
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: things are a lot more linked with 10.04.  sound applet as well.  know what I mean?
<ubuntujenkins> yea I do love 10.04 though it took a couple of days to get use to the me menu not doing shut down but after that it was fine
<ubuntujenkins> my parents will find it harder though
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I don't think 10.04 is good for business users from what I have seen
<sebsebseb> I don't see any new features that are  business features
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: so if I was running a business that had Ubuntu desktops I would keep them on 8.04 or start looking into using some other distro instead
<ubuntujenkins> true I think people can put custom spins in it though you have ooo and evolution.
<sebsebseb> thing is 8.04 on the desktop won't be supported all the way untill the next LTS
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: sure, but Open Office and Evolution are in  nearly all desktop Linux distro's
<sebsebseb> by default
<sebsebseb> these days
<ubuntujenkins> true
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I don't know if you know already, but they are having the Gnome 2.28  version of Evolution in Lucid, instead of 2.29
<ubuntujenkins> whats the differnce can't be much?
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: also Evolution is a bit buggy,  or at least with exchange,  I read some stuff about evolution not that long ago,  including something from someone who used to program it
<ubuntujenkins> I find evolution fine I like it alot
<sebsebseb> I have  never used it properly
<ubuntujenkins> use it all the time
<sebsebseb> I use web mail, but if I am going to use an email client, well Thunderbird :)  been quite a while since I used Thunderbird 2, and I haven't tried Thunderbird 3 yet
<ubuntujenkins> I ahve to many e-mail accounts for webmail
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: time zones and so on, I came here thinking humphreybc might be here
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: since I wanted to tell him that I had read this http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/16-things-that-could-be-improved-in.html
<ubuntujenkins> he can be it depends on what lectures he has i expect
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: yeah exactly
<sebsebseb> or if he is working or whatever
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: so Mandriva  and history of Gnome and KDE basically and peoples comments here, hence not a direct link to the article http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2010031200335OSMD
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: np
<sebsebseb> and  Mandriva is a rather nice distro,  after  using this latest release since  I think it was November some time on here,  because I wasn't impressed with Ubuntu 9.10,  and not being that impressed with  what I have seen so far of 10.04,  I am loving Mandriva more and more :)  for now at least, the other computer will still have Ubuntu,  and it will get upgraded to 10.04.
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I guess Gnome 3 will start to change things
<sebsebseb> and hopefuly properly and for the better,  when  it becomes default in Ubuntu
<ubuntujenkins> yep I am so glad lts is not gnome3 my parents would find it so hard to use. I will not mid the change but htey will find it hard
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: yeah I think it's a good thing that
<sebsebseb> 10.04 is still Gnome 2
<ubuntujenkins> thats what I ment :-P
<sebsebseb> by default, and even if Gnome 3 had been ready  by April which was the plan, I guess it will of only been in the repo as an option, which I expect is what will happen with 10.10
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I am not so keen on the two new themes, but  that black one is alright, but thing is I then open up Firefox, and I think things look odd
<sebsebseb> the other one is ok as well, but I do  actsaully prefer the black, even though I don't tend to like dark themes
<ubuntujenkins> I like the black one I haven't used firefox I use chrome
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: anyway I guess next Ubuntu Manual will have to cover both, Gnome 2 and Gnomd 3 in 10.10 :D
<ubuntujenkins> I hadn't thought of that sebsebseb gnome 3 is going to give us more work
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: well  I am not actsauly making the manual
<sebsebseb> I found out about it, told soeone about it, who is making it
<sebsebseb> and i'l give some feedback here and there
<ubuntujenkins> all help s welcome
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: oh yeah and  this is the factoid message I came up with :)  and they did
<sebsebseb> !ot
<manualbot> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: we are, but
<sebsebseb> so what :D
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: and they did, I meant and they accepted
<sebsebseb> if  we weren't chatting now in here, this channel would probably be rather dead
<ubuntujenkins> this isn't the busiest channel at the moment.
<sebsebseb> indeed
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: there will be a nice log of this offical logs :)
<sebsebseb> plain text and HTML
<ubuntujenkins> there will indead
<ubuntujenkins> in colour in html :P
<sebsebseb> indeed :)
<sebsebseb> http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2010-03-11-025-35-OS-BZ-UB
<sebsebseb> well the bot's here don't do the URL title thing, so
<sebsebseb> Time For Ubuntu to Fork Evolution
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: again no direct link, since comments
<ubuntujenkins> reading it now
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: well that was quick to go on the link
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: In a way it's kind of funny that HumphreyBC has complained about Ubuntu 10.04 here and there (such as the link I gave earlier), since he's the manual leader,  so he will be making a manual for software, that he doesn't like here and there
<ubuntujenkins> the have point about evolution I have to argue its not that unstable
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: a comment on the article, goes to a developer reply
<sebsebseb> someone who used to program it
<ubuntujenkins> sebsebseb: i hink humphreybc is picking up on minor features and it is still in devlopment it is all opinioated
<ubuntujenkins> at least most of it
<sebsebseb> when I used software above, this would be more correct, a distro
<ubuntujenkins> although choice is the advantage of linux and if humphrybc was realy unhappy he would move ot anohter distro
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: yeah I guess
<sebsebseb> thing is though
<sebsebseb> loads of people think Ubuntu is Linux
<sebsebseb> they don't know about other distros
<sebsebseb> hrm I wonder if that is really true, that loads of people think that
<sebsebseb> ,but you know what I mean, I guess
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: Read this yet? http://a-hackers-craic.blogspot.com/2010/03/forkn-evolution.html
<ubuntujenkins> not yet just fixing a bug
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: fixing a bug?
<ubuntujenkins> on quickshot
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: What's quickshot?
<sebsebseb> sounds famiular I think
<daker> ubuntujenkins, how can i write a multi lines in the commit ?
<ubuntujenkins> sebsebseb: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> daker:  i would like to know myself actually good question
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: oh
<daker> godbyk, ?
<godbyk> daker: I'm here.
<daker>  how can we write a multi lines in the commit ?
<godbyk> if you just say 'bzr commit' (without the -m "blah"), it'll load your text editor and you can write whatever you like.  when you save and exit the text editor, it'll finish committing.
<daker> oki
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: Ubuntu forking evolution they shoudn't do that
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX Do you kwon how i can list all the users using python?
<ubuntujenkins> sebsebseb: I don't mind as long as it still works it doesn't bother me
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: oh ok
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: right so, that's what quickshot is, did you program that?
<ubuntujenkins> no I haev done bits and bobs, most of it has been done by others.
<sebsebseb> The oh ok, was for  Evolution thing.  You just fixed a bug, by proggramming a fix?
<sebsebseb> for quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> I try to fix the bugs as best as I can currently they usually involve low level python which is about as far as my skill level goies
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: ah ok,  that's kind of answer I was after :)
<sebsebseb> the kind of
<ubuntujenkins> sorry sebsebseb I am making less and less sense its late for me
<sebsebseb> of answer I was after.  Sometimes when I don't type in a word to IRC, I want to correct that.
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: You are makeing sense.
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: There's nothing to appologize about :)
<ubuntujenkins> sebsebseb: I often find i don't make sense when I ma awake :-$ I tend to try to type to fast
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: oh
<ubuntujenkins> I think faster than I can type
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: I can type quickly what I am thinking :)
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: Which sometimes might be a bit bad actsualley :D
<sebsebseb> might be a bit of a bad thing sometimes,  depending on what was typed
<ubuntujenkins> right night all i am finaly tired 4 hours of sleep here i come
<humphreybc> quick, everyone tell me everything you know about data representation!
<godbyk> humphreybc: ha! you'll have to narrow it down quite a bit.
<humphreybc> i have a 10% test tomorrow on data representation....
<humphreybc> only found out about it today
<godbyk> humphreybc: it's all 1s and 0s.  Easy peasy.
<humphreybc> :S
<humphreybc> yeah, but stuff like different bases and hexadecimal stuff and IEEE?
<humphreybc> hopefully it's just converting binary to decimal.... :)
<godbyk> ah, the base conversion is easy.  you might want to read up on the IEEE floating-point representation stuff, though. It's pretty easy, but you'll have to skim through it.
<godbyk> you can promptly forget about it once the test is over.  in practice you very rarely have to concern yourself with it.
<humphreybc> i have the lecture notes for it in front of me
<humphreybc> not particularly detailed though
<godbyk> wikipedia is your friend.
<humphreybc> is there an online resource somewhere that talks about that sort of stuff?
<humphreybc> :P
<nisshh> hey guys
<nisshh> looking for some help
<nisshh> for some reason the install script in the bzr branch reckons i dont have tex live 2009 installed
<nisshh> when i actaully do...
<nisshh> ls
<humphreybc> godbyk ^^
<nisshh> cheers benjamin
<godbyk> nisshh: can you email the install-pkgs.log file to me at <kevin@ubuntu-manual.org>
<godbyk> I'll take a look at it and see what's going on.
<nisshh> thanks
<nisshh> and yes im on the latest revision
<nisshh> sure
<nisshh> when i try to compile it says error 127
<nisshh> and i did a full tex live install twice just to make sure
<godbyk> okay, it says it's not detecting texlive at all.
<nisshh> can you fix it and push the fix to the branch?
<godbyk> nisshh: what does 'which tlmgr' return?
<nisshh> nothing
<godbyk> okay.  did you accept the default paths when you installed?
<nisshh> all i did was:
<nisshh> run the install script from the archive at the link on the wiki instructions
<nisshh> and hit 'I' and enter
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> we can fix it pretty easily then
<nisshh> it said it was a full install
<godbyk> run: sudo apt-get install perl-tk
<nisshh> hang on a sec installing
<godbyk> 'kay
<godbyk> are you running 64-bit or 32-bit?
<nisshh> 32
<nisshh> old computer
<nisshh> kk done
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> nisshh: now run: /usr/local/texlive/2009/bin/*/tlmgr --gui
<godbyk> actually, run that with 'sudo'
<godbyk> so: sudo /usr/local/texlive/2009/bin/*/tlmgr --gui
<nisshh> ok its popped up
<godbyk> okay. click on the Actions menu and select "Handle symlinks in system dirs..."
<nisshh> hep ok
<nisshh> yep
<godbyk> are the directories that are listed in your PATH?
<nisshh> what do you mean?
<godbyk> are the directories there /usr/local/bin, /usr/local/info, and /usr/local/man?
<nisshh> ah yes they are there
<godbyk> okay
<godbyk> in a terminal, type: echo $PATH | grep /usr/local/bin
<godbyk> does that return anything?
<nisshh> it returns this: /usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games
<godbyk> perfect.
<nisshh> ok good
<godbyk> click on the "Update symbolic links" button.
<nisshh> yes done
<godbyk> then click OK
<godbyk> and then you can close the tlmgr program.
<nisshh> done
<godbyk> now in a terminal, does "which tlmgr" return anything?
<nisshh> yes it returns: /usr/local/bin/tlmgr
<godbyk> great
<godbyk> now you should be able to run the install-pkgs.sh script again and it'll work.
<nisshh> ok gimme a sec then
<godbyk> the problem was that, while everything was installed, the binaries (programs) were placed in a directory that isn't normally searched when you try to run a program.
<nisshh> gotcha its working so far
<godbyk> so we create links from the weird directory to one of the regular directories that is searched.
<nisshh> ah and thats what the update symlinks button did
<godbyk> there was an option during the installation to have it do that for you, but it's not turned on by default. (I'm not sure why.)
<godbyk> so it's easy to miss if you're not looking for it.
<nisshh> yea thats annoying
<nisshh> maybe you should put that on the wiki
<godbyk> yeah, it is mentioned in the installation instructions, but I will make it more prominent.
<godbyk> you're not the first who's ran into that problem. :)
<nisshh> ok sounds good
<nisshh> lol i bet
<godbyk> nisshh: let me know if you run into any more problems.
<nisshh> ok i should be ok for the moment
<nisshh> wow taking a long time to compile the manual
<humphreybc> it's cos it's so awesome
<nisshh> hehe too right
<godbyk> heh.. it's 'cause I have it compiling it probably twice as many times as is actually required (just to make sure all the index entries, glossary entries, table of contents entries, and cross-referencing works out okay).
<nisshh> heh that plus my slow computer
<thorwil> hi!
<nisshh> hi!
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> wow nice title page thorwil
<nisshh> really like ti
<nisshh> it'
<thorwil> ty
<nisshh> and the whole uk version is not even 700k
<thorwil> nisshh: you mean the one now in the pdf?
<nisshh> nice
<nisshh> yes
<nisshh> godbyk: my i just compiled the manual into the uk version and its doing something really strange
<godbyk> nisshh: what's it doing?
<nisshh> the chaplinks are displayed in some strange language
<nisshh> but everything else is fine
<godbyk> nisshh:  when you mentioned compiling the uk version.. you mean ubuntu-manual-uk.pdf?  because that's the ukrainian version.
<godbyk> for uk-english, you'll want ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf
<nisshh> oh i used ubuntu-manual-uk.pdf
<nisshh> cheers for that
 * humphreybc just posted his first article for OMG! Ubuntu! http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/unleash-your-inner-sysadmin-with.html
<nisshh> humphreybc: do you write for omgubuntu now?
<humphreybc> every now and then :)
<humphreybc> Joey made me a writer
<nisshh> oh and godbyk en_GB worked fine
<humphreybc> *yay*
<nisshh> cool
<godbyk> nisshh: great!
<humphreybc> so now I can shamelessly promote the manual project haha
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> nice article by the way
<humphreybc> you like it?
<humphreybc> it's not my best writing... lol
<nisshh> no there is some better stuff on your blog but its nicely informational
<nisshh> hehe its better than my blog atm which has had a whopping 36 visits and no comments at all
<humphreybc> haha
<nisshh> meh, hey whats that program for trying out the next version of ubuntu, i need to try out lucid
<humphreybc> testdrive
<humphreybc> !testdrive
<manualbot> Testdrive makes it simple to run any Ubuntu release in a virtual machine, safely, and without affecting your current Ubuntu installation. See: https://launchpad.net/testdrive
<nisshh> thats right cheers
<humphreybc> hey, that actually worked
<humphreybc> good work manualbot!
<nisshh> oooh cool
<nisshh> didnt know manualbot actaully did that
<nisshh> !quickly
<manualbot> Factoid 'quickly' not found
<nisshh> darn it
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> !quickshot
<manualbot> Factoid 'quickshot' not found
<humphreybc> ..
<humphreybc> !ubuntu-manual
<manualbot> Factoid 'ubuntu-manual' not found
<humphreybc> well that's just useless
<humphreybc> !software-center
<manualbot> Factoid 'software-center' not found
<humphreybc> !help
<manualbot> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<nisshh> lol
<humphreybc> !why don't you know more shit manualbot?
<manualbot> humphreybc: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<humphreybc> !sigh
<manualbot> Factoid 'sigh' not found
<nisshh> lol nope never did
<nisshh> stupid but AI
<nisshh> bot AI
<nisshh> awesome program testdrive im donloading the iso now
<humphreybc> sweet
<nisshh> darn now i have to wait a whole hour
<humphreybc> for the ISO?
<nisshh> yes
<nisshh> slow net
<humphreybc> you should totally just install it on your HDD
<humphreybc> it's very stable
<nisshh> yea but im against upgrading to the next release
<nisshh> it never works properly when i upgrade
<humphreybc> do a fresh install?
<nisshh> meh yea ok you have convinced me lol
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> do you create a separate encrypted home partition?
<nisshh> yes but not encrypted
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> so if you've got a separate home partition you should be sweet
<nisshh> tried encryption once, yuck not on a p4
<humphreybc> I usually create a new /home anyway because there is a lot of cruft that builds up in there
<nisshh> thats what scripts are for!
<humphreybc> I have this fresh install script
<nisshh> so do i
<humphreybc> it's quite handy
<nisshh> im going to try lucid in testdrive first and if all looks good ill upgrade from karmic
<humphreybc> humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ubuntu-desktop-setup.sh
<humphreybc> oops
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ubuntu-desktop-setup.sh
<humphreybc> http might help :P
<nisshh> hehe hey dude isnt this the one i gave you ages ago?
<nisshh> looks so much like mine
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> probably is!
<humphreybc> yes it is!
<humphreybc> i got it off someone and now I remember it was you :P
<humphreybc> I changed it a bit and added some more echo statements to keep finer track of what's happening
<nisshh> yea iv added stuff like libdvdcss2 now
<nisshh> yea i thought so
 * humphreybc really needs to hit the sack, early start tomorrow
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> cyas
<nisshh> humphreybc: how did you upgrade from karmic to lucid because i cant seem to
<humphreybc> i just backed everything up and then installed lucid over karmid
<humphreybc> karmic*
<nisshh> so you fresh installed?
<humphreybc> yessir
<nisshh> ah ok thanks
<humphreybc> upgrading is a bit of a pain
<humphreybc> especially now that they've changed some pretty big stuff, like moving to plymouth, removing HAL etc
<humphreybc> fresh install > upgrade
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> i didnt know they had made massive changes since its an lts lol
<humphreybc> yeah they have made some pretty big changes
<nisshh> ok yea so i guess ill still test it out in testdrive and then if all goes well i fresh install
<humphreybc> yup
<nisshh> also i cant remember but after i install lucid and then beta comes out is it possible to upgrade then?
<humphreybc> it's rather stable
<humphreybc> yep
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> ok cool
<humphreybc> if you just keep updating you'll have the final Lucid
<nisshh> yea ok
<humphreybc> (when that's out)
<nisshh> yea do you find lucid better than karmic?
<nisshh> does it boot faster?
<ubuntujenkins> the splash screen is pointless for me i see it for 2 seconds
<humphreybc> yesss
<humphreybc> and it fixed my suspend resume!
<nisshh> meh sounds like plymouth helps alot
<humphreybc> the only thing i don't like is the theme, but that's easily changed
<nisshh> yea the theme devs are apparently thinking about what they could have done better
<nisshh> holy moly my download speed just jumped from normal to 29mb/s for a whole 10 seconds there!
<humphreybc> nice
<nisshh> yea considering that speed is impossible for my connection anyway
<nisshh> iso is 24% done
<humphreybc> neato
<ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster and TommyBrunn if you see titeuf_87 around can you ask if his branch is ready to merge with main there are ui changes to make that will possible get messed up with a merge and it would be good to get testing it all.
<ubuntujenkins> Ping Red_HamsterX ^^^ miss typed your name
<humphreybc> !rev
<manualbot> Factoid 'rev' not found
<humphreybc> !rev 499
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/499 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 499
<manualbot> Factoid 'rev 499' not found
<humphreybc> only one revision away from 500! :O
<reventon_> hi folks
<reventon_> who do I talk to about joining the project?
<nisshh> hey dude
<nisshh> you can join the team whenever you like
<nisshh> its open
<nisshh> if you have any questions: fire away
<reventon_> well what do you guys need help with right now
<reventon_> like what's pressing
<reventon_> i'm good for editing or writing, i'm good with latex
<nisshh> ah if your a latex guy you should talk to godbyk, maybe you can help him out and also do some writing
<nisshh> gobyk: i found a latex guy for you
<reventon_> lol i'm no guru, i just don't have a problem working with it
<nisshh> ah ok, let me have a look at what needs some work
<nisshh> ok doke, first of all have you visited our wiki page?
<nisshh> here:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<reventon_> yes
<reventon_> i've also downloaded the latest branch through bazaar
<nisshh> ah good your ahead of me
<nisshh> ok have you joined the team yet?
<reventon_> negativ
<reventon_> e
<nisshh> ok well you dont have to but if you do you can subscribe to our mailing list which you can aslo then post on
<nisshh> here: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<nisshh> it appears that one of the chapters needs an editor
<nisshh> are you game?
<reventon_> sure
<nisshh> ok dude just add yourself to the team and ill just need your full name so i can add it to the wiki
<reventon_> JJ Laxton
<nisshh> cool
<reventon_> ok so i've subscribed
<nisshh> so iv put you as editor of the security chapter
<reventon_> right on
<nisshh> now i believe that chapter is mostly complete for lucid release but as a first thing probably just grammer and error check it
<reventon_> ok cool
<nisshh> and i can also show you how to compile the manual too if you like
<nisshh> by compile i mean into a .pdf document
<reventon_> sure
<nisshh> ok, do you know how to use bzr?
<reventon_> negative
<reventon_> i mean, i followed the wiki instructions
<nisshh> ah ok, so you dont know how bzr works at all?
<nisshh> oh ok
<reventon_> well i've picked up on a bit
<nisshh> ok if you need any help just give me a yell
<nisshh> on here
<reventon_> so to compile, is it more than just 'latex main.tex'?
<ubuntujenkins> just make sure before you do 'bzr commit -m "What you have changed"' do 'bzr pull lp:ubuntu-manual' that way you don't break the branch
<reventon_> ok no problem
<ubuntujenkins> to compile run "make"
<ubuntujenkins> when in the ubuntu-manual directory
<nisshh> thanks ubuntujenkins
<nisshh> forgot to mention that
<ubuntujenkins> no problem nisshh
<reventon_> apparently the Makefile is empty
<nisshh> huh?
<reventon_> nevermind
<reventon_> too many windows open
<nisshh> lol
<reventon_> so nisshh have you been working on this since the beginning?
<reventon_> also, is there a list of packages required to compile?
<reventon_> i'm dealing with a new install
<ubuntujenkins> reventon_: gjust looking for the page
<reventon_> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help#How to use LaTeX
<ubuntujenkins> nope
<ubuntujenkins> "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help#How to use LaTeX"
<ubuntujenkins> copy and paste the whole thing the link has gaps in it
<ubuntujenkins> reventon_: the download is about 2gb just so you know
<reventon_> yeah i'm writing a research paper right now in latex, i'm always amazed how it can be so huge
<ubuntujenkins> cool that script will download and install all you should need for the project
<reventon_> so who started the ubuntu-manual project
<reventon_> was it a canonical initiative?
<ubuntujenkins> it was started by Benjamin Humphrey (humphrybc)
<nisshh> reventon_: sorry i was doing other things and wasnt paying attention
<reventon_> no worries
<nisshh> well humphreybc posted his idea on the ubuntu forums and i was one of the first to jump on board
<nisshh> back in i think october last year
<nisshh> or november i cant quite remember
<nisshh> how long have you been an ubuntu user?
<reventon_> i've been on and off ubuntu for a while, since 7.04
<nisshh> ok, longer than me iv been around since 8.10
<reventon_> but used to be a big gentoo user
<nisshh> yea ok
<reventon_> started with linux around 2004 or so
<nisshh> kk
<nisshh> you tried 10.04?
<reventon_> yeah that's what i'm using now
<nisshh> meh ok im downloading it right now
<nisshh> humphreybc conviced  me today to always use the latest dev release
<reventon_> i think they could've done better with the new theme
<nisshh> same
<nisshh> the colors are nice
<nisshh> but the layout is terrible
<reventon_> i don't care about the button placement, i just think they should get rid of that bad gradient behind them
<nisshh> i agree that way it doesnt break when you decide you want them in a different position and order
<komsas> guys, I upgarded today to 10.04 and now GNOME is so fast.. light speed :))
<reventon_> i think ubuntu in general has a big problem looking professional, but unfortunately its ultimately a gtk issue
<nisshh> komsas: yea im about to install it
<nisshh> what do you mean by gtk issue, too clunky or something?
<reventon_> yeah, the buttons are all big with weird padding
<daker> hi @all
<reventon_> don't get me wrong, i much prefer gnome to kde
<nisshh> yea right
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> hey daker
<daker> :)
<nisshh> cya later
<daker> TommyBrunn, !!!
<TommyBrunn> Hello daker
<daker> how r u ?
<TommyBrunn> I'm alright. A little frustrated, because I can't get a piece of code to do what i want it to, but other than that, I'm fine.
<daker> fine
<daker> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/daker/
<TommyBrunn> Is that button a single image?
<daker> no
<TommyBrunn> So the text can be changed and translated easily, then?
<daker> yep
<TommyBrunn> Nice!
<TommyBrunn> Good job.
<daker> tanks you
<TommyBrunn> Have you tested it in other browsers/resolutions?
<daker> it was tested on chrome, opera
<daker> FF and Arora
<daker> for resolution 1024*768
<TommyBrunn> Alright, that seems reasonable, although someone might want it to at least look acceptable in IE.
<TommyBrunn> How did you get the nice drop shadow on the button text? Javascript?
<daker> css
<daker> <a href="?download/10.04/fr/no" class="large button orange">Download now<span class="version">(v10.04)</span></a>
<daker> .button, .button:visited {
<daker> 	background: #222 url(../images/overlay.png) repeat-x;
<daker> 	display: inline-block;
<daker> 	padding: 5px 10px 6px;
<daker> 	color: #fff;
<daker> 	text-decoration: none;
<daker> 	-moz-border-radius: 6px;
<daker> 	-webkit-border-radius: 6px;
<daker> 	-moz-box-shadow: 0 1px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);
<daker> 	-webkit-box-shadow: 0 1px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);
<daker> 	text-shadow: 0 -1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.25);
<daker> 	position: relative;
<daker> 	cursor: pointer;
<daker> 	text-align:center;
<daker> }
<daker> .button:hover	{ background-color: #111; color: #fff; }
<daker> .button:active	{ top: 1px; }
<daker> .large.button, .large.button:visited {
<daker> 	font-size: 25px;
<daker>     padding: 8px 14px 9px;
<TommyBrunn> Oh, I see. CSS3 stuff. Well I guess that's alright. It'll still look fine even if you don't have a CSS3-enabled browser.
<daker>     width:250px; height:30px;
<daker> }
<daker> .orange.button, .orange.button:visited		{ background-color: #FB8B00; }
<daker> .orange.button:focus						{ background-color: #F44800; }
<daker> yep
<daker> i have to prepare the pot file for translations
<TommyBrunn> The list of features should probably be a list of a definition list, though, rather than a bunch of paragraphs.
<TommyBrunn> *or
<daker> how ?
<TommyBrunn> daker: like so:http://paste.ubuntu.com/395624/
<daker> oki
<daker> where can i upload the pot file ?
<TommyBrunn> I don't know. You'll have to talk to someone who knows about those things.
<TommyBrunn> Who that is, I don't know.
<daker> yesterday i have create a page for the project in lp
<daker> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website
<daker> what do you think ?
<TommyBrunn> Sure. That way we could purge all the website stuff from the ubuntu-manual branch.
<TommyBrunn> But again, you should probably talk to someone who knows about that stuff.
<daker> who ? :)
<daker> TommyBrunn, !
<TommyBrunn> Hello again
<daker> hi
<daker> someone has written this
<daker> Wording on site needs to be modified and edited to be awesome
<daker> what wording ?
<daker> here http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
<daker> in the website section
<TommyBrunn> They just mean the text has to be rewritten. As I understand it, the text that's currently there is pretty much just placeholder text.
<daker> oki
<ubuntujenkins> how are we all doing then?
<daker> fine ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> good good daker
 * ubuntujenkins starts to try and finish my manual writing work
<ubuntujenkins> we are on revision 500
<daker> yeah \m/
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<ubuntujenkins> I set grub to a zero second time out I could set it back to a 3 second but is there a button i can press to show grub when booting?
<ubuntujenkins> hello titeuf_87 how are you?
<titeuf_87> Hey ubuntujenkins! Pretty good, thanks. And you?
<ubuntujenkins> yea I am good. Is your branch for quickshot in a position to be merged with main?
<titeuf_87> It should be
<titeuf_87> reading the log now that got posted on the mailing list
<ubuntujenkins> I have some ui work to do after the conversation with kevin and would like to cause as few errors as possible.
<titeuf_87> two conflicts when I merge the main branch into mine, let me fix them so you can easily add it back to main
<ubuntujenkins> you can add it to main if you like
<titeuf_87> oh, that works too! Going to do that right now then
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks it means i cna do some ui work does that mean that main can upload screenshots as well now?
<titeuf_87> if nothing broke, yes
<titeuf_87> what is the time frame on this by the way?
<ubuntujenkins> needs to be done idealy by.....
<ubuntujenkins> 21st - 31st of march. on the 21st we shouldhave the final screenshots list
<titeuf_87> ah super, I work better when there are deadlines :)
<ubuntujenkins> the sonner the better
<ubuntujenkins> *sooner
 * ubuntujenkins shouts at brasero
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, I pushed my changes in, from a quick test it still works
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks titeuf_87 i will give it a test
<ubuntujenkins> brb off to the quickshot user
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, for quick testing you don't have to
<titeuf_87> you can "su quickshot -" to log in a terminal as that user and run quickshot from there. If you run it with "quickly run -n" it also will skip the changing of the resolution
<ubuntujenkins> nice I will do that next time
<ubuntujenkins> I how does the user tell if the screenshot is taken?
<titeuf_87> there's a countdown after which the screenshot is being taken and then uploaded. But it doesn't show it yet to the user. Plus the uploading blocks the ui, which is not that nice
<ubuntujenkins> cool that sounds good also  can we add the screenshots so far for chapter 1 to use as testing. Would it be possible to change the language codes to their full names?
<titeuf_87> also if the uploading fails for whatever reason then the user is stuck as the quickshot window's not visible then
<ubuntujenkins> thats not so good. does it check to see if the user is on the internet?
<titeuf_87> Should be possible, I'll have to find out how. Right now it shows only the languages you have installed on your system
<ubuntujenkins> are I have evrey language pack there is thats why the list apeard so long
<titeuf_87> sweet, then sounds like that bit works :)
<ubuntujenkins> I had no clue which was which
<titeuf_87> it's a two-letter code for every language right?
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<ubuntujenkins> thorwil I know we have had this discussion in many meetings but what resloution for the screenshots would be best in the opinion of the artwork team?
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: native resolution
<ubuntujenkins> I like 1024x768
<ubuntujenkins> but whats native? surley each user is different
<thorwil> i thought it was planned to use 800x600 with quickshot?
<godbyk> I think we decided to go with 800x600.
<ubuntujenkins> It is like that at the moment I didn't know if that was final or not
<godbyk> Since it will be scaled to fit in the PDF (and evince does a lousy job at displaying the scaled graphics).
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: to check if a user exists, you should either parse the passwd file, or better, use the 'id' command and check the exit status.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: also, you should avoid hard-coding /home as the location of the users' home directories.  on many systems the home directories have different paths.
<ubuntujenkins> this is open office impress in 800x600 http://imagebin.org/88978
<godbyk> heh.. nice.
<ubuntujenkins> I think i did use the passwd file to check if the user exists
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: well, you just checked to see if the string 'quickshot' existed in the passwd file.  but that's not a good way to go.  you need to read each line of the file, check the first column (from beginning of line to the first colon) and see if that matches 'quickshot'.
<ubuntujenkins> Ok I think i can do that.
 * ubuntujenkins adds it to the todo list
<godbyk> but the passwd file is a bad way to go in general, because it's not guaranteed to have the users on it.
<godbyk> for instance, when I log into a machine on campus, its local /etc/passwd file doesn't know about me and doesn't have my username listed.
<godbyk> Running 'id godbyk' still works, though.
<ubuntujenkins> ok i see your point
<ubuntujenkins> I will play with the id command later this week
<godbyk> it's pretty simple. :)
<ubuntujenkins> I am not convinced on the resolution size as the screenshots are going to look very much unlike the users actual computer
<ubuntujenkins> how do I add a screenshot to the manual godbyk?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I haven't written the commands for that yet.
<ubuntujenkins> ok cool np
<godbyk> I'll work on that today.
<ubuntujenkins> no rush I have loads of other things to do
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: the 800x600 happened without my input
<godbyk> I don't particularly care, but I'm not the one obsessed over the size of the file, how many screenshots there are, how many pages it is, etc. :-)
<thorwil> i think i said 1024x768 would be the minimum, below it gets hard to even get content areas in certain apps
<ubuntujenkins> I am not sure what is better. I think 1024x768 is the largest most laptops support
<godbyk> Also, since I've rebased the ubuntu-manual document class on the tufte-book document class, we can easily have the screenshots stretch across the main text block and the side notes area.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: if you take some screenshots at 1024x768 and send them to me, I'll pop 'em into the manual and see how they look.
<godbyk> grab a few screenshots that have placeholders in the manual.
<ubuntujenkins> ok I will do a few now godbyk
 * ubuntujenkins off to quickshot user
<godbyk> also, try to grab some that are cropped appropriately (just the window or just the area that we want the screenshot of).
<godbyk> then I can set up commands to handle those cases.
<godbyk> until then, I'm going to go find something for lunch.  be back in a few minutes.
<ubuntujenkins> I will try and do some
<ubuntujenkins> who is writing the around the desktop section?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I'm not sure. If you look at the blueprint in launchpad for that chapter, it should say, though.
<ubuntujenkins> how do i get out of bzr lock?
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, what's the message/error you get?
<ubuntujenkins> make
<ubuntujenkins> bzr version-info --custom --template="Revision number: {revno}\qquad Revision date: {date}\n\n" > revision.tex
<ubuntujenkins> bzr: ERROR: Could not acquire lock "/home/luke-jennings/Projects/ubuntu-manual/.bzr/checkout/dirstate": [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable
<ubuntujenkins> make: *** [main.pdf] Error 3
<ubuntujenkins> luke-jennings@luke-laptop:~/Projects
<ubuntujenkins> or
<ubuntujenkins> bzr commit
<ubuntujenkins> bzr: ERROR: Could not acquire lock "/home/luke-jennings/Projects/ubuntu-manual/.bzr/checkout/dirstate": [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable
<titeuf_87> hmm, not sure. I had a similar problem but it was access denied when I accidentally tried to use bzr as another user
<ubuntujenkins> thanks I will ask in #bzr
<titeuf_87> a quick google on the error doesn't immediately show up something either
<ubuntujenkins> meh thanks for trying I re get the branch and add the files in again
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: e-mail sent
<godbyk> k
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<ubuntujenkins> night all o/
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-16
<godbyk> Okay, I added some of ubuntujenkins' screenshots to the manuao for testing.  What do you guys think?  http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual.pdf
<godbyk> See pages 24, 70, 76, 80, 88, and 94.
<humphreybc> should we have a meeting this weekend?
<godbyk> humphreybc: what are the upcoming deadlines?
<humphreybc> content freeze this sunday
<humphreybc> writing freeze ten days after that
<godbyk> humphreybc: also, did you see the screenshots in the manual? what do you think?
<humphreybc> those screenshots look good
<humphreybc> heh
<godbyk> probably a good idea to have a meeting then.
<humphreybc> evince sucks at rendering them at 100%, better at 150%
<humphreybc> k
<humphreybc> that's an evince problem right?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I think so.  sudo apt-get install acroread and then run acroread and open the pdf.  see how it looks there.
<humphreybc> no such package?
<godbyk> it's in the partner repositories.
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> how do I enable them?
<humphreybc> i have all of them enabled in software sources
<godbyk> not sure, I've had it forever. :)
<godbyk> hold on.
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> found it
<humphreybc> "other software"
<godbyk> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acroread
<godbyk> yea
<godbyk> you can also try xpdf for another pdf viewer.
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> is the whole shithouse images a reported bug in evince?
<godbyk> I dunno
<humphreybc> darn. i was under the impression you knew everything
<humphreybc> !evince
<manualbot> Factoid 'evince' not found
<humphreybc> what can this bot do?
<humphreybc> !bug
<manualbot> If you find a bug in Ubuntu or any of its derivatives, please file a bug using the command Â« ubuntu-bug <package> Â» - See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs for other ways to report bugs - Bugs in/wishes for the IRC bots (not Ubuntu) can be filed at http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots
<humphreybc> ..
<godbyk> !help
<manualbot> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<godbyk> How is that relevant?
<humphreybc> no idea lol
<humphreybc> i've enabled partner and updates
<humphreybc> updated*
<humphreybc> but still can't see acroread.
<humphreybc> says it's build for Lucid
<humphreybc> but the package version is 9.1.0-7jaunty2
<humphreybc> and that was 20 weeks ago
<humphreybc> so i'm going to assume it's not in the lucid repos
<godbyk> the lucid version is lagging behind karmic and others. weird
<humphreybc> and adobe only support 32 bit from their website
<humphreybc> what dicks
<godbyk> yeah, it uses ia32libs to run.
<humphreybc> if i download the 32 bit .deb from adobe will it work?
 * humphreybc tries xpdf
<humphreybc> xpdf is better at images but sucks at text
<humphreybc> not to mention it's shit
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> well, it's ancient
<godbyk> humphreybc: did you see mark's response to the windows controls position 'bug'?
<humphreybc> godbyk: yep
<humphreybc> Joey covered at OMG!
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> so it looks like window controls are here to stay
<humphreybc> fun fun
<IlyaHaykinson> on the left?
<IlyaHaykinson> eek
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 532633 in metacity "[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize,maximize,close"" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<nisshh> humphreybc: im running lucid now
<IlyaHaykinson> sounds like Mark is saying "it'll stay for beta, but maybe not for the final release"
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: that's what I got out of it, too.
<IlyaHaykinson> this makes taking screenshots a very last minute thing for us, eh?
<godbyk> <sigh> Seems that way.
<humphreybc> i might have a talk to mark or the design team
<nisshh> about changing the buttons in the new theme back?
<godbyk> or at least getting some sort of hard cut-off date so we know when we can start taking screenshots.
<nisshh> yea, otherwise we are kind of screwed on that point
 * IlyaHaykinson suspects this won't work. The initiative came from Mark
 * nisshh agrees
 * godbyk suspects that nisshh and Schumbit are the same person. :-)
 * nisshh am not!
 * nisshh says that schumbit is a different person
 * nisshh says lol
<godbyk> heh.. sure, sure.. you would say that!
<IlyaHaykinson> if i were Schumbit, i would have so said "i am nisshh"
<nisshh> nope, mere coincidence
<IlyaHaykinson> and then nisshh would _never_ be able to pretend otherwise ;-)
<nisshh> haha funny
<nisshh> i really like lucid
<godbyk> heh
<nisshh> so damn fast
<thorwil> godbyk: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/ubuntu-title-page-2/
<godbyk> thorwil: I hate the dots.
<godbyk> I like A the best, but I'd prefer the icons be the same color as the CoF orange.
<thorwil> godbyk: i think A is more balanced and succeeds in friendliness, less of a contrast to the font selection
<thorwil> godbyk: i tried that. the orange is no good for the icons
<godbyk> no? bummer.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks for poping the screenshots in.
<ubuntujenkins> I like A btw thorwil
<thorwil> godbyk: so we go with A. which might mean we have to stand united against Ben ... ;)
<thorwil> this shows why some designers say you should only ever present options you are fine with, if they get picked
<godbyk> thorwil: heh.. good idea.  we'll have to remember that for next time!
<thorwil> however, if i'm asked to try something that i can't dismiss outright ...
<godbyk> what color is that with the icons? is looks odd matched with the orange CoF.
<thorwil> godbyk: it's about halfway between the orange and black
<godbyk> I loved how Ben points to Mark's post about the branding, and then proceeds to select the wrong elements to use.  The dots are meant to indicate technical/engineering-type stuff and the purple is for Canonical/corporate tsuff.
<godbyk> We should promote the community (orange) and friendly (non-technical, non-dots) stuff.
<thorwil> yes. though what they propose for the community side is on the aggressive side in my eyes
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: ping
<godbyk> thorwil: I think the more transparent orange on C looks nicer than the darker orange on A, actually.
<godbyk> thorwil: can you recommend a color palette for us to use on the interior of the manual?
<godbyk> for headings, to show internal links (cross-references), external links, important things, ... not sure what else.
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, I'm here, although only half paying attention
<ubuntujenkins> I was thinking what is the point of the language box in the screenshots window as I am unsure if we will get as far as launching programs in other languages. I think at the moment we should only let people take screenshots in the languages that they are logged in as. They can log out, change the language and log back in again if they want to do them in other languages.
<thorwil> godbyk: i think we should try headings in black, actually
<godbyk> thorwil: I'm cool with that.
<godbyk> I think the typeface and size are enough indicators that it's a heading.
<thorwil> godbyk: for links i'd say try the icon orangish-brown tone. but i'm trying something there right now
<godbyk> okay
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk is this a sutible fix for your quickshot bug http://paste.ubuntu.com/396049/
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: any thoughts on that?
<ubuntujenkins> on my previous comment to you titeuf_87
<titeuf_87> about the language box?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: you could just check the exit status of id.
<ubuntujenkins> yep titeuf_87
<ubuntujenkins> how would i go about that godbyk ?
<titeuf_87> that sounds fine to me, we'll need to retrieve the active language then
<ubuntujenkins> thats easy to do its in a file somewhere
<ubuntujenkins> *settings
<titeuf_87> ok, I'll look at that tonight then when I'm back from work
<ubuntujenkins> thanks titeuf_87 I will try to find the file to look in
<thorwil> godbyk: narrower than text block screenshots are centered to text block? how about aligning them to margin side, minimizing the gap to there caption?
<thorwil> their caption, even
<godbyk> thorwil: right now all the screenshots are centered, either in the text block or between the page margins.
<godbyk> I originally had them left-aligned, but that looked odd.
<godbyk> you think I should right-align them?
<thorwil> godbyk: yes for single-side layout. margin side. just try it
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I think you can call .wait() and it'll return the exit status: http://docs.python.org/library/subprocess.html#subprocess.Popen.returncode
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: doing "echo $LANG" in the command line returns your current language. have fun day at work :-)
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll try it real quick.. one sec.
<ubuntujenkins> moring humphreybc
<humphreybc> hey guys :)
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, thanks!
<ubuntujenkins> np
<thorwil> hi humphreybc
<humphreybc> hey thorwil!
<godbyk> thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/thorwil.pdf
<godbyk> thorwil: (see page 70)
<thorwil> godbyk: i think that's better
<godbyk> 'kay. we'll run with that for a while.
<godbyk> do you like the line widths better now?
<thorwil> godbyk: seem to be about the sweet spot now, yes
<godbyk> great!
<godbyk> Do we want to do anything more interesting with the chapter headings or leave 'em as they are (except with lining figures instead of old-style figures)?
<thorwil> godbyk: is hyphenation running with some conservative settings, is it using an insufficient rule set?
<ubuntujenkins> see you later people o/
<thorwil> hi vish
<godbyk> thorwil: Hmm.. not sure. It has an awesome rule set. Don't know what settings I'm using.  What are you seeing?
<thorwil> godbyk: word spacing seems excessive in some places. not horrible, just on a closer look
<godbyk> thorwil: if you give me some specific examples, I'll look into it.
<godbyk> the line-breaking that TeX uses is to optimize the appearance of the entire paragraph, not any particular line.
<thorwil> godbyk: page 96," îe principal paîºage managers", that and the next line
<thorwil> goes from dense to rather wide
<thorwil> godbyk: i think you should move the whole content a bit to the right. that is, increase left margin, decrease right margin
<thorwil> where a bit actually means to the margins must end up _clearly_ different, of course
<godbyk> thorwil: just guessing, but I think that if it moved "Cen-" to the next line, the first line would have wider word spaces than the second line does now. and that's probably why it hyphenated instead.
<godbyk> I can check into it, though.
<godbyk> per the margins, I generally prefer a wider right margin than left. otherwise it looks like the text is about to run off the right edge of the page. (especially when it's in a bound book)
<humphreybc> godyk, the margins on the right (last time i looked) were pretty damn big
<humphreybc> like 60:40
<humphreybc> can we have the content:notes ratio something like 70:30 at max? I would prefer 75:25 or 80:20
<godbyk> humphreybc: I don't want the lines of the main text block to be too much wider of it'll be more difficult to read.  Also, since screenshot captions, definitions, margin notes, and other random stuff are all being put in the sidenotes area, it'll need to be wider than you think, otherwise all that stuff will run out of vertical space.
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> why are screenshot captions in the margin?
<godbyk> 'Cause they look nice there? :)
<godbyk> thorwil: right now the left margin is 1" and the right margin is 5/6" (if I did my math right!).
<humphreybc> lol
<thorwil> godbyk: the right edge of the main block is very close to the larger part of a golden section of the page now. that's really nice
<godbyk> cool.
<godbyk> the page design that we have now is based on that used by Edward Tufte in his books.
<thorwil> godbyk: the right margin does not equal the left, but is not clearly different. there's just no nice proportion between the two
<godbyk> thorwil: that's true. were you guys around for the justified vs. ragged right question?
<thorwil> godbyk: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/29d721e5c9d260486c62e48668a92046
<thorwil> godbyk: no, i wasn't
<godbyk> thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-ragged.pdf or fully-justified (as now)?
<godbyk> the fully-justified version is a bit more formal-looking, which may give our manual more of a sense of authority,
<godbyk> but a ragged-right block may look more friendly.
<godbyk> ((fwiw, Tufte's books use a ragged right.)
<thorwil> ragged-right solves the density issues. like always
<godbyk> yep and gives us a little more freedom on the margins.
<godbyk> makes them less conspicuous.
<thorwil> go that way
<godbyk> thorwil: did you decide on a cover yet?
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> if you've got some graphics split out, I can set about constructing the cover in latex real quick.
<thorwil> godbyk: A. if anything, the icon color question is still open, thanks to you
<godbyk> cool.
<godbyk> thorwil: turnabout is fair play!
<thorwil> godbyk: still need to adjust the layout depending on internal margins. and build a letter version
<godbyk> thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/thorwil.pdf   ragged now.
<godbyk> definitely fixes the word-spacing issue you noticed earlier.
<godbyk> I'll run one at A4 for you, too, real quick.
<godbyk> thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/thorwil-a4.pdf
<godbyk> thorwil: the other day you said you didn't like something about the roman numerals.  what were you talking about?
<thorwil> godbyk: look at page 21 in the a4 version
<thorwil> godbyk: no wait, wrong issue
<thorwil> godbyk: i meant the page numbering for the prologue, but that is already fixed
<godbyk> thorwil: oh, you didn't like the roman numeral page numbers? gotcha.
<thorwil> godbyk: but text figures like the "1" in front of "Installation" ... that's regular weight vs bold
<godbyk> I'm okay with them.  I think they're classy.  Tufte's books don't use them, so neither does the tufte-book style (which is why they're no longer in there).
<godbyk> thorwil: yeah, that's on my list to fix.
<thorwil> godbyk: the alternative to using capital figures would be to have the whole head in regular, relying on size and placment alone
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> I think the capital figures may look better since they're always adjacent to a capital letter, though.
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> do you think urls should be in monospaced type or the regular serif?
<thorwil> godbyk: maybe sans, bot not monospaced
<godbyk> the paper size should be automatically set appropriately based on the language you're compiling now.
<godbyk> If it's US English, it'll be letter size.  If it's, well, anything else, it'll be A4.
<godbyk> Okay, I'm off to bed.  Be back in 8 hours or so.  G'night!
<godbyk> (Also, I've started the build script for the translations. so new copies of the translated manual will be up at http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ after a bit.)
<godbyk> humphreybc: you should set up a meeting for this weekend. If for no other reason than to remind everyone of the looming deadlines. :)
<godbyk> Ta!
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> will do
<humphreybc> godbyk, just doing the agenda now
<humphreybc> stuff I need to add?
<nisshh> progress report?
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i'm kinda getting worried about screenshots now
<nisshh> so am i
<humphreybc> long story short, we're a bit screwed
<nisshh> i just noticed how many we have got so far
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> we would have a lot more if the damn design team confirmed the window buttons
<humphreybc> first priority is the english manual
<nisshh> yea true
<humphreybc> actually
<humphreybc> yea
<nisshh> holy crap!
<nisshh> i just figured, do we have a FAQ in the manual yet?
<humphreybc> we've got the troubleshooting section
<nisshh> yea but thats for common problems, what if the user just wants to know something thats not an actual problem
<nisshh> but is confusing for them
<humphreybc> maybe in 10.10?
<nisshh> yes i agree maybe in 10.10
<nisshh> humphreybc: im using lucid now! its so freaking fast!
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> told ya!
<nisshh> yep
<humphreybc> i think lucid is going to be an awesome step forward for Ubuntu
<nisshh> firefox starts up at least three times faster for me
<humphreybc> the new theme and branding is really good, it may not be as good as it can be, but it's certainly a lot better than what we had. two steps forward, one step back xD
<humphreybc> that could just be fresh install syndrome though :P
<nisshh> yes too right
<humphreybc> you should try it on an SSD or from a pen drive on the LIveCD
<humphreybc> SSDs are blazingly quick, I don't have one but i've seen videos and heard from people who have SSDs
<nisshh> well unfortunantly i dont have any really expensive ssd's lying around
<nisshh> im still on IDE drives here
<nisshh> yes SCSI drives are also pretty fast
<nisshh> at 10k rpm anyway
<nisshh> when i have the cash im going to get a whole new system with RAID and a core i7
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> fun fact, it's freakin' cold outside
<nisshh> meh its warm here
<humphreybc> how warm?
<humphreybc> what time is it?
<nisshh> hehe 730pm
<humphreybc> damn
<nisshh> its still like 17 degrees outside
<nisshh> you?
<humphreybc> you're on the east coast of aussie right ryan?
<nisshh> west coast
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> oops yeah
<humphreybc> it's late :P
<nisshh> gmt +8
<humphreybc> it's like 12:40am on wednesday, google says 9 degrees but it feels like -1,000,000 C
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> yes, negative one million :P
<nisshh> woo topgears just started ill be back in an hour
<humphreybc> lol ok
 * humphreybc is doing some late night python
 * ubuntujenkins daytime python
 * humphreybc likes coding, because you can listen to music and eat chips while doing it.
<humphreybc> ie, it doesn't require all of your attention
<ubuntujenkins> Have you looked at the manual with screenshots in?
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> looking good
<humphreybc> so 1024x768 is the way to go?
<ubuntujenkins> they don't look very sharp, think they are better in 1048x768 than 800x660
<humphreybc> fair enough
 * humphreybc can't find his dang pencil sharpener 
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: http://imagebin.org/88978 is impress at 800x600
<humphreybc> LOL
<ubuntujenkins> not much better at 1048x768 but that is the largest that most laptop screens support and we don't want to stop some users taking screenshots just because they havea laptop
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> plus it's a fairly decent compromise between quality and size
<ubuntujenkins> i don't like the quality that it apears at in the manual
<ubuntujenkins> the originals are spot on
<humphreybc> are you viewing it in evince?
<ubuntujenkins> and okular
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> have you tried acroread?
<ubuntujenkins> nope i will try that
<humphreybc> don't worry, it's not just our manual that looks crap with PDF images... many other PDF books i've downloaded have the same thing
<ubuntujenkins> its just it all looks so good then the screenshots let it down. is acroread in the repos, ic an't find it
<humphreybc> hey ubuntujenkins, how can i get python to read an input from a text file?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: acroread is in the partner repositories
<ubuntujenkins> at a a guess use the subprocess module but I have no clue I am afraid my python is limited. sorry
<humphreybc> ah that's okaty
<humphreybc> okay*
<thorwil> humphreybc: textfile = open(path, "r") or something like that
<thorwil> then you can use textfile.read
<humphreybc> what's the r for?
<thorwil> i think you need import sys
<thorwil> humphreybc: r for read-only, i mean to recall
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn: have you any idea why this doesn't work http://paste.ubuntu.com/396131/ when the user doesn't exist.
<humphreybc> worked it out, text = open('file', 'r')
<humphreybc> then text.read()
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: Because if the user doesn't exist, it returns id: <name>: doesn't exist
<TommyBrunn> Sorry, it returns "no such user"
<TommyBrunn> What is it that you want it to do?
<ubuntujenkins> I need the status thing don't I, have been going in circles
 * humphreybc likes it how the manual room can double as a python chat room
<TommyBrunn> I'm not sure I'm following you, ubuntujenkins.
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, I can't try it out now, but shouldn't you use .wait() instead of .poll()?
<ubuntujenkins> I am trying to detect if the quickshot user is there in a better way than before re bug #538873
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 538873 in quickshot "checkForUser function is inaccurate" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538873
<humphreybc> aw cheers manualbot
<ubuntujenkins> thanks titeuf_87 but that didn't work
<titeuf_87> what exactly is the error you get?
<ubuntujenkins> no error it just doesn't work
<shrini> team: I am new to this project.
<ubuntujenkins> hello shrini
<shrini> guide me on how can I help?
<ubuntujenkins> what are your skills
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: hello
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: :-)
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: I am a linux admin and using ubuntu for 3 yrs
<ubuntujenkins> nice
<ubuntujenkins> can you translate?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: yes. I can do
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: My language is Tamil
<ubuntujenkins> shrini we don't have a Tamil manual at the moment, you could start one but its alot to do on your own
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: Thats great.
<ubuntujenkins> I have to dash humphreybc can you please help shrini
<ubuntujenkins> see you in a bit shrini
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: okey
<ubuntujenkins> will be back in awhile
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thats fine. I will be here.
<humphreybc> hi shrini :)
<shrini> humphreybc: hai
<humphreybc> shrini, i suggest you don't start translating on your own
<humphreybc> it will be a lot of work
<humphreybc> what are you interested in?
<shrini> humphreybc: I like to see the manual in Tamil
<humphreybc> shrini: you're more than welcome to translate it if you like
<shrini> humphreybc: I talk a lot to tamil people and they need a manual to refer
<humphreybc> but it might take a while just on your own
<humphreybc> okay, have you got any friends that could help? Or are you in a LoCo group/
<shrini> humphreybc: yes. It may be tough.
<humphreybc> ?*
<humphreybc> have you translated before?
<shrini> humphreybc: yes. we have a lug in my town
<humphreybc> awesome :)
<humphreybc> you could try to get them involved to help you
<shrini> humphreybc: they agreed to work on translation
<humphreybc> oh, excellent
<shrini> humphreybc: sure. this weekend or next weekend, decided to join in my home
<shrini> humphreybc: and work on translating
<humphreybc> you can start translating whenever you like, but the writing freeze is on the 31st march
<shrini> humphreybc: need your advice
<humphreybc> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> have you had a look there?
<shrini> yes. I looked there
<shrini> but, seems to tough to do translation on launchpad
<shrini> as Tamil is different then english
<humphreybc> dutchie: ping
<humphreybc> yep, but did you have a look at all the translations currently underway?
<shrini> we could not fix the text with the same english sentences
<humphreybc> there are lots of languages that are different to english, such as Chinese
<shrini> humphreybc: yes. ofcourse
<humphreybc> have a look here: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/StartingToTranslate
<shrini> sure
<shrini> thats a great link
<shrini> thanks
<humphreybc> no worries
<humphreybc> any questions just come in here
<shrini> humphreybc: sure. I will do
<humphreybc> you can also email the mailing list to get answers :)
<shrini> :-)
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net
<shrini> where can I get the current english version of the ubuntu manual in english?
<ubuntujenkins> Back
<humphreybc> hang on one second :)
<shrini> okey
<humphreybc> godbyk, on your build page, could you have the english build listed up the top?
<ubuntujenkins> can you link me the build page humphreybc
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
<ubuntujenkins> ta
<humphreybc> it'll be all nice and pretty with the new website once we get that going
<nisshh> humphreybc: when will the new website be up?
<humphreybc> nisshh: whenever someone gets around to building it properly ;)
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> check out http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/
<shrini> humphreybc: this looks great
<humphreybc> shrini: i'm just updating the project and then i'll compile the manual and upload it to launchpad for you to get
<humphreybc> shrini: have you used bzr before?
<shrini> humphreybc: bzr? no. But will learn it
<humphreybc> you don't need to if you're just doing translations, but it might be interesting for you to have a look at the source code
<humphreybc> you can go like this:
<humphreybc> sudo apt-get install bzr
<humphreybc> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<nisshh> humphreybc: need any help with the website?
<humphreybc> or, bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual ~/where-you-would-like-it-to-be-saved/here
<humphreybc> etc
<humphreybc> nisshh: yes!
<humphreybc> do you know HTML and CSS?
<humphreybc> and do you know how to do it well so it's compatible with IE, firefox, safari, chrome etc etc?
<shrini> humphreybc: great. doing
<nisshh> yes, not pro at it but yes
<humphreybc> well, go for it then
<humphreybc> everything you need is under /website in the branch
<nisshh> ok cool, though ill have to do some research to make sure my code is cross-browsser
<nisshh> gotcha cheers
<humphreybc> there are a couple of "remakes" there
<humphreybc> from daker and wolter, who wanted to do it their way
<humphreybc> wolter used ASCII for the text or something
<nisshh> right so whos should i use as a guide?
<humphreybc> but they seem to have disappeared and left their stuff half done
<nisshh> meh ok
<humphreybc> um use the stuff in the root of website as a guide
<humphreybc> don't use daker/wolter's ones which are in /website/daker and /website/wolter-remake
<nisshh> ok
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: thanks for the wait() suggestion, I had a problem with the if function not being quite right.
<humphreybc> nisshh: if you're happy working on the website then that's great :D
<humphreybc> nisshh: how is your chapter looking?
<nisshh> not too bad
<nisshh> its mostly complete i think
<humphreybc> awesome
<nisshh> just needs heaps of eyes
<humphreybc> kk
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I think this should solve your bug report http://paste.ubuntu.com/396160/
<humphreybc> so yeah, just go hard out on the website and see how much of that you can get done xD
<nisshh> it was looking pretty dire until jamin put me straight
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc:  what time is the freeze on the 21st?
<nisshh> yea, what needs attention on the website at the moment?
<humphreybc> nisshh: try to make it as close to the mockups as possible, i think they're in /website/source
<humphreybc> nisshh: um, everything?
<humphreybc> :D
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: not sure. I guess 2400 UTC or something. wasn't really planning on times... anyway, the freeze on the 21st isn't that important, it's the content one. the 31st is the writing freeze which is important
<humphreybc> shrini: sorry this is taking a while, bzr is being quite slow (8KB/s)
<nisshh> whats the difference between content and writing freeze?
<shrini> humphreybc: for me 49KB/s
<shrini> humphreybc: but still downloading
<humphreybc> it's about 30mb i think
<shrini> humphreybc: thats fine
<humphreybc> nisshh: content is like stuff that we decide to add or remove, changing of the chapter order or section order, new screenshots, that sort of thing
<humphreybc> writing freeze is actually every single character cannot change from that point on
<humphreybc> so right down to commas and things
<shrini> humphreybc: what shall I do? work on tamil translation or help to english?
<humphreybc> because if we change one comma in a string, that whole string gets reset and any work the translators have done on that string is lost. and when you've got 50 languages, that's at _least_ fifty people you've just pissed off by changing a comma :D
<humphreybc> shrini: probably best to co-ordinate the Tamil translation with your team :)
<shrini> humphreybc: thats fine
<nisshh> right got it
<shrini> humphreybc: will do
<humphreybc> shrini: you'll see the source files in your branch that you're downloading, but to compile it you'll need to install texlive 2009 which is about 2GB, plus a heap of fonts and things. You don't really need to compile it though
<humphreybc> You can just look at the builds page and download your translated manual there when godbyk gets it working properly
<ubuntujenkins> does kevin know there is a new language?
<shrini> humphreybc: sure. will get the PDFs from the link
<humphreybc> shrini: have a look in /Team images and /website/source, you'll see some cool stuff. Also, in each chapter folder is a .tex file which has the source text that gets built into the PDF when compiling
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: nope :P
<humphreybc> godbyk, there's a new language
<humphreybc> he does now!
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<humphreybc> i'm so mean
<ubuntujenkins> please let me know if any new ones appear as well
<humphreybc> will do
<humphreybc> fun times
<ubuntujenkins> ta
<shrini> humphreybc: 16 MB uploaded
<humphreybc> we must have 49 or 50 now
<ubuntujenkins> about that my list is out of date by 2 0r 3
<humphreybc> =\
<humphreybc> shrini: the branch is 48mb, sorry, a bit bigger than I thought!
<nisshh> wow it was only 15mb's a two weeks ago
<shrini> humphreybc: thats great
<humphreybc> shrini: you can download the latest revision (506) from here, I just compiled the english version and uploaded it. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> nisshh: I know... it's crazy. I haven't pulled in like two days and so much has changed! I just uploaded a new version to launchpad, and deleted the old one which was from Feb 10th, revision 300
<nisshh> humphreybc: so you want the website to end up exactly like the muckups?
<humphreybc> nisshh: that's the plan :D
<nisshh> ok got it lol
<humphreybc> godbyk: https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+question/104408
<humphreybc> nisshh: more or less, anything you think needs to be different for any reason let me know. the content and wording will change, but the design and layout should be pretty much exactly the same - including stuff like drop shadows and things :P
<shrini> humphreybc: the latest pdf is awesome
<humphreybc> shrini: thanks!
 * humphreybc hopes everyone thinks it's awesome come release day
<humphreybc> that will be an interesting day...
<nisshh> meh yep
<shrini> humphreybc: yes.
<nisshh> takes a full 40 seconds to compile on my machine
<shrini> humphreybc: any deadline for tamil translation?
<ubuntujenkins> has anyone got a manual-release party :-P
<nisshh> meh im actually going to a lucid release party
<nisshh> there will be three of us
<humphreybc> shrini: nope. If you want it ready for our release on the 29th, then that's your deadline. Otherwise there is no rush, we can release the Tamil version after the 29th. It's likely that a lot of translations won't be completed till after the 29th April.
<nisshh> wooo!
<humphreybc> nisshh: LOL
 * humphreybc should probably organize a release party in dunedin
<shrini> humphreybc: thanks
<nisshh> im going to go to one of my local pubs, stand on a table and yell "Lucid pwns!"
<humphreybc> shrini: no worries. There are, after all, 50 languages being worked on as we speak. It's highly unlikely that all of those languages will be fully translated with localized screenshots in less than two months :)
<humphreybc> but we'll still be around after we've finished this cycle, we'll be working towards the Ubuntu Lucid+1, or 10.10
<shrini> humphreybc: great
<ubuntujenkins> I worked out we have to do 44 screenshots a day to get them all done.
<humphreybc> Emphasis for the team will be on adding new formats to the manual, finishing localized screenshots, adding in new 10.10 features, improving and adding more sections, collaborating with other projects and continuing work on our own applications like Quickshot
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: god
<nisshh> wow!
<humphreybc> nisshh: the fun never stops :D
<nisshh> hehe
<ubuntujenkins> will there be a kubuntu-manual next humphreybc?
<nisshh> yea but can we get one done by 10.10?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: plans are there for that, but probably not for 10.10
<nisshh> i think not
<ubuntujenkins> good I can unistall kubuntu-dektop
<ubuntujenkins> started to use it so I could write about kubuntu
<humphreybc> yeah, there are lots of plans for the future of this team xD
<nisshh> oh yea, i nearly forgot, if anyone has any ideas for stuff to add to my chapter for the 10.10 release, let me know
<ubuntujenkins> which chapter?
<nisshh> command-line
<nisshh> or 6
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will have a look soon and let you know
 * shrini goes for a tea break. will trouble you all again after a break. :-)
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: thanks
<ubuntujenkins> np
<nisshh> humphreybc: which browsers have you tested the new website in? because the formatting is screwed up in ff 3.6.3
<humphreybc> just chrome..
<ubuntujenkins> what link nisshh ?
<humphreybc> i know that the countdown timer is screwed in IE
<ubuntujenkins> I will test in ie later
<ubuntujenkins> I THINK someone fixed the counter or was looking at it
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: im talking about the new website in the bzr branch
<ubuntujenkins> o i see
<nisshh> yea the counter is fine
<nisshh> its the stuff under the features heading
<nisshh> its all on top of each other
<nisshh> looks funny
<nisshh> and someone has made the text wrap
<nisshh> which is wrong
<nisshh> woo this is gonna take some tweaking to get right
<TommyBrunn> nisshh, which version of the website are you working on at the moment?
<TommyBrunn> There are a bunch of different ones floating around, currently.
<TommyBrunn> And there are at least three people working all in separate.
<TommyBrunn> All in complete disarray.
<nisshh> im currently working with the index.html file located in the root of the website directory in the bzr branch
<nisshh> mak sense?
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: nisshh is ignoring all the "remakes" and stuff
<humphreybc> the website stuff is in complete havoc
<nisshh> note to self: dont edit html in gedit
<nisshh> waaaay too confusing
<nisshh> x
<nisshh> oops wrong terminal
<humphreybc> gedit rocks for HTML what are you on about? :P
<nisshh> someone tabbed out the html about 15 times so its all messed up in gedit
<nisshh> so im using geany
<nisshh> meh not pretty
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> gedit has an auto-indentation option
<humphreybc> never used it, but that could fix your tabbing
<nisshh> meh fixed it i had word wrap on
<nisshh> auto indent is useful for python
<nisshh> very useful for python
<ubuntujenkins> does anyone have a networked printer I do a home but i am at uni at the moment.
<nisshh> nope
<humphreybc> nope sorry
<humphreybc> nisshh: that so? might turn it on for python then :P
<ubuntujenkins> same
<ubuntujenkins> see you in a bit people
<nisshh> cya
 * humphreybc is off to bed
<nisshh> do you know what it does?
<humphreybc> night all
<shrini> team: thanks for your information
<shrini> will work on tamil translations
<shrini> and update you the details
<shrini> is it possible to download the PO file?
<shrini> hello
<shrini> is it possible to get the po file for the manual?
<daker> shrini, yes
<shrini> daker: great
<shrini> daker: how to get it
<shrini> daker: let me tell my requirement
<shrini> I wish to translate the manual into tamil
<shrini> I have my local LUG members who can help in this
<daker> you want to translat the manual into a new language ?
<ubuntujenkins> shrini have you worked it out ?
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, did you figure out how to use id to check if an user exists?
<ubuntujenkins> I did thanks the wait() thing worked the if function was wrong
<titeuf_87> ah ok :)
<ubuntujenkins> good day at work?
<titeuf_87> I just got home a little bit ago. Was a bit of a relaxed day, can't complain!
<ubuntujenkins> good good
<ubuntujenkins> mattgriffin: how is the wrting going?
<mattgriffin> ubuntujenkins: i need to get going on it again.
<ubuntujenkins> you know the dead line ins sunday right?
<mattgriffin> ubuntujenkins: i'll spend some time on it this afternoon
<ubuntujenkins> if you upload your work so far the editors can edit what you have done
<mattgriffin> ubuntujenkins: ok
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<mattgriffin> np
<shrini> team: need help on getting the po flle for ubuntu-manual
<shrini> to translate in tamil
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: is back :P i will try and help i have to dash in 10 mins though
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: wow. thats fine
<shrini> we work as team and rely on papers to translate
<shrini> very few of us only know the typing in tamil
<shrini> we can write the text in paper and typists can type them
<ubuntujenkins> but you are able to type it in right
<shrini> then we will paste into launchpad
<ubuntujenkins> sorry you have answered that
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> i need the text to translate
<shrini> i will print
<shrini> will plan and divide to the team
<shrini> we will sit together in my home and start writing in paper
<shrini> typing team will type them
<ubuntujenkins> the only problem I can see is that the manual is still changing and printing them at the moment means that some things may have to be changed
<ubuntujenkins> it may be best to wait until the 31st for the writing freeze before you print
<shrini> oh
<shrini> thats fine
<shrini> april month is filled with exsams
<shrini> :-)
<ubuntujenkins> don't want you to translate stuff to find its no good though
<shrini> yes. ofcourse
<shrini> great
<ubuntujenkins> is Tamil registered as a launguge for the manual yet?
<shrini> is there any almost finished chapters?
<shrini> oh. how to check that?
<shrini> for registered one?
<shrini> if not, how to do?
<ubuntujenkins> erm not sure I know the people to ask but they are not around
<ubuntujenkins> ^^^ as far as the chapters that are finished
<shrini> hmmm
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie how do we go about registering Tamil as a language.
<shrini> we all are new to translation
<shrini> we may try this weekend as a pilot
<ubuntujenkins> I have done some but that was usa english to uk english
<shrini> hmmm.
<shrini> it is our long term talk to do this
<ubuntujenkins> what is your time zone?
<shrini> and we want some action on that
<shrini> GMT +5.30
<shrini> asia/kolkata
<ubuntujenkins> so 11.30 pm then?
<shrini> yes :-)
<ubuntujenkins> it looks like dut chie isn't around, stay on as long as you can and see if he comes back. If you leave i will try and get one set up.
<shrini> shall i write a mail to the list?
<ubuntujenkins> what is your launchpad id? Are you a member of the ubuntu-manual group?
<ubuntujenkins> shrini you can if you like
<shrini> how to join that group?
<shrini> https://launchpad.net/~shrini
<shrini> is my id
<ubuntujenkins> cool go to https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual and click "join team" on the right
<dutchie> shrini: you should just be able to go to http://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<dutchie> yeah, join the team too
<ubuntujenkins> I couldn't find a  add language button
<dutchie> the person who's translating should be able to just get translating
<dutchie> if they've set up their languages on their LP page
<ubuntujenkins> even if the language isn't registered then?
<ubuntujenkins> *with the manual
<ubuntujenkins> ok i will be back in bit
<ubuntujenkins> I will give you a shout when i get back shrini to see how its going
<shrini> joined https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<shrini> what is this edge?
<shrini> why the "join" link is not there in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual ?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: ?
<shrini> what is our mailing list address?
<reventon_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<reventon_> under "Contact Us"
<shrini> reventon_: thanks
<shrini> got it
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: no setting up is needed on our side, the new language springs to life when someone start translating into it
<shrini> dutchie: i think so
<shrini> http://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual this page has tamil link
<shrini> sent a mail to the list
<dutchie> shrini: just go ahead and translate then :)
<shrini>  dutchie: sure
<shrini> :-)
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: Have you go the file that you want?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: not yet
<shrini> i need a file that contains the original sentences to translate with numbers
<ubuntujenkins> I will have a go again
<shrini> so that we can split based on the numbers and have a track with the team
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot
<ubuntujenkins> go to https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ta/+translate
<ubuntujenkins> and click "Download translation"
<shrini> going
<shrini> wow
<ubuntujenkins> when you go again later in the week check the "Only strings that differ from imported versions" box.
<shrini> it will mail me that file
<shrini> oh
<ubuntujenkins> and me I gave it a try
<shrini> thats a great one
<ubuntujenkins> I have the e-mail all ready
<ubuntujenkins> just be careful because is one comma changes launchpad says the whole string has to be translated again
<shrini> :-
<shrini> )
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> will the po file contain serial numbers to track?
<ubuntujenkins> check you e-mail it gives you a link
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk where can i find the list of stuff that translators shoudl not translate?
<dutchie> the po file contains filenames and line numbers, yes
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/talks/latex-handout.pdf
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> shrini please look at the above link ^^^^
<shrini> yes
<shrini> looking
<shrini> thanks
<shrini> got the po file too
<shrini> but , it has no line numbers
<dutchie> #: installation/installation.tex :136
<dutchie> should have lines like that
<shrini> dutchie: yes. it is there
<shrini> this is enough
<shrini> thanbks
<shrini> thanks
<shrini> i am discussing about this with our team KanchiLUG
<shrini>  ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net
<shrini> http://www.freelists.org/post/kanchilug/Ubuntu-Manual-Tamil-Translation-needed
<shrini> will keep you posted the status
<ubuntujenkins> shrini I am haveing internet issues did you get this message from me? you can show file numbers in gedit by going edit > preferences display line numbers. you can print the line numbers by going file > print. click the "Text editor" tab and click the "print line numbers" option
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thats really great
<shrini> okey team
<shrini> thanks for all your support
<shrini> I will update our work soon
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: another doubt
<shrini> how can we know that any sentence is changed
<shrini> after we are done the translation
<shrini> is there any way to find the changes?
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<shrini> wow
<shrini> how?
<ubuntujenkins> go to https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ta/+export
<shrini> ya
<shrini> got your point
<shrini> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> look for an option that says "Only strings that differ from imported versions" and check it. that should
<ubuntujenkins> work
<ubuntujenkins> you will have to import work so far though
<shrini> grea
<shrini> t
<shrini> and tamil is a non latin language
<shrini> needs unicode typesetting
<shrini> hope it will work well with our system
<shrini> right?
<ubuntujenkins> you need to tell godbyk that, I have no clue on that side I am afraid I am learning about translations by helping you :-)
<shrini> hahaahahaha
<shrini> okey, will mail him
<ubuntujenkins> he should be around on here
<shrini> godbyk: hai. r u here?
<dutchie> unicode works fine
<godbyk> For just a sec.
<shrini> :-)
<dutchie> as far as my end of things go
<godbyk> Gonna head to lunch soon and then I'll be back in a few hours.
<godbyk> I'll look into the Tamil translation.
<shrini> okey
<shrini> thats fine
<shrini> will mail to the list, reply to that
<godbyk> shrini: Can you send me an email: kevin@ubuntu-manual.org
<shrini> sure
<godbyk> I may have to have you translate some LaTeX stuff, too.
<godbyk> (Don't worry, they're easy.)
<shrini> sure
<shrini> will do
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<shrini> godbyk sent a mail
<shrini> ok team
<godbyk> shrini: thanks. I'll email you back in a few hours. :)
<shrini> sure
<shrini> thanks for all your support and helping hands
<shrini> going to my dreamland
<ubuntujenkins> np
<ubuntujenkins> have fun
<shrini> meet you later with my updates from my team
<shrini> good day for all
<thorwil> godbyk: have a look at the 2 title_page SVGs at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/files/38
<thorwil> godbyk: added "layout" layers to explain how this is constructed. margins are now defined via the wave of friends, independent of whatever happens internally
<thorwil> godbyk: now it's at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/files/39
<thorwil> somehow inkscape refused to delete unused gradients, transplanting the content into new files got rid of like 200 kb per file
<dutchie> godbyk: should default-apps/microblogging.tex have disappeared?
<ubuntujenkins> nope thats me
<dutchie> you've stuffed up the build then
<ubuntujenkins> opps i will post it
<ubuntujenkins> sorry relized why now
<ubuntujenkins> done dutchie
<ubuntujenkins> I tested it and it worked for me but thats because I have the file and I forgot that.
<ubuntujenkins> should be in rev 509
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/509 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 509
<dutchie> \o/ manualbot strikes again
<ubuntujenkins> can it do quickshot rev?
<ubuntujenkins> rev 30
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/30 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 30
<ubuntujenkins> quickshot rev 30
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/30 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 30
<ubuntujenkins> nope
<dutchie> it probably could if I set it up to
<dutchie> which I have forgotten how to do
<ubuntujenkins> don't worry there is no need for it
<ubuntujenkins> i was just curious
<dutchie> anybody seen joe burgess any time vaguely recently?
<ubuntujenkins> I was also thinking that today how strange :-P
<godbyk> I'm back now.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk is this a sutible fix for you bug
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/396392/
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: that should work, assuming line 6 is return False. :)
<ubuntujenkins> it returns correctly fine I shall submit it to main
<dutchie> if it hits line 6, it just returns None, which == False
<dutchie> so it works, but it's probably worth adding the explicit return False in
<ubuntujenkins> the whole file is http://paste.ubuntu.com/396396/ I just left the rest it how it was written by Tommy
<ubuntujenkins> its called on by the main quickshot file
<daker> hi @all
<reventon_> hi
<ubuntujenkins> hello darker
<ubuntujenkins> night night all o/
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-17
<Red_HamsterX> Yay. Finally free from interviews tomorrow.
<Red_HamsterX> I can finally do things again!
<Red_HamsterX> (And try to write a todo list)
<humphreybc> woohoo!
<humphreybc> that was an odd quit message
<d0od> I want a really offensive quit message
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> "Gone to use Windows 7"
<humphreybc> or
<humphreybc> "Gone to use Windows Vista"
<humphreybc> ...
<d0od> haha
<Red_HamsterX> "Reinstalling WinME"
<humphreybc> "Gone to use some monopolistic pricey proprietary software on a Windows Vista SP1 install at a Windows songsmith release party"
<Red_HamsterX> "Patronizing global monopolies -- someone's gotta keep them in business."
<humphreybc> lol
<Red_HamsterX> Or maybe something blunt...
<Red_HamsterX> "You all suck"
<Red_HamsterX> But that's not witty in the slightest.
<humphreybc> lol
 * humphreybc cannot set his quit message in pidgin anymore... used to be able to!
 * humphreybc just got 10 karmic CDs in the post from Canonical. Yay!
<Red_HamsterX> Why didn't you just wait for Lucid?
<Red_HamsterX> Or was it becuase you think Lucid looks so ugly that it wouldn't be worth spreading the discs?
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i ordered the CDs about 2 months ago
<humphreybc> anyway, I'll try to nab some Lucid CDs at UDS
 * humphreybc doesn't know if he's going or not yet, but power of positive thought...
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> time to get some f***ing stuff done
<humphreybc> godbyk, ping
<godbyk> I'm back now
<godbyk> humphreybc: what's up?
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> could you please add the english build to the build server
<humphreybc> and give me a permanent link for the latest revision to add to the wiki
<godbyk> humphreybc: Yeah, I can do that.
<humphreybc> cheers
<godbyk> Keep in mind that they're only rebuilt when I get around to pushing a button.  I haven't completely automated it (yet).
<godbyk> Lemme finish this cover page stuff first.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> if you could completely automate it, at least for the english version i'll give you a cookie
<nisshh> humphreybc: do you build a pdf and store it on the build server for testing?
<humphreybc> nisshh: that's what godbyk does yea
<humphreybc> except he builds all the translations too
<nisshh> right ok
<nisshh> how many translations do you think will be ready for final release?
<humphreybc> no idea
<humphreybc> 20 if we're lucky
 * humphreybc room is SO dusty!
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> iv noticed some of the transaltions are now about 65% done
<nisshh> anyway iv got to go to work in a few minutes
<humphreybc> WHY IS MY ROOM SO DUSTY
<humphreybc> should I buy another Dell 24" LCD?
<godbyk> Sure!
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> see I've got one at the moment that I use for watching movies on. but I also want to use it as a dual screen thing with my laptop. To do that I have to move it, and I don't want to move it back every time I want to watch a movie
<humphreybc> so I could just buy another one
<humphreybc> i'll think about it...
<humphreybc> the one i have now is sooo nice and dell have such a good price
<humphreybc> godbyk, do you think we need the mission statement on the first page?
<godbyk> probably not anymore.
<humphreybc> kk
<godbyk> just one or two sentences explaining what the project is about.
<humphreybc> The Ubuntu Manual Team is a group of volunteers striving to improve Ubuntu education by creating quality education materials and resources.
<humphreybc> sound good
<humphreybc> ?
<godbyk> That's what the team is about.  You want text for the page about the manual, right?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> already got that though
<godbyk> ah, 'kay.
<godbyk> the description is kind of generic.
<godbyk> doesn't differentiate us from the learning team or the general docs team.
<humphreybc> what are we taking off the header?
<humphreybc> artwork, FAQ, blueprints, table of contents?
<humphreybc> and research
<godbyk> I think all those can go, yeah.
<godbyk> where's thorwil when I need him? :)
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> I'm taking his title page and reconstructing it in LaTeX.
<godbyk> But I have to generalize it so it'll work with all our translations.
<godbyk> It's awesome that we have so many translations, but it sure makes it harder to design things!
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/New
<humphreybc> I don't know why when I specify border=none for the tables it still has a 1px border
 * humphreybc is going to buy a new keyboard and mouse tomorrow
<godbyk> not bad.
<humphreybc> thanks
<humphreybc> just working on the help page now
<godbyk> We're starting to outgrow the wiki.  And since we have our own web space, we should use it. :)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> we will, in time :D
<godbyk> fair enough :)
<humphreybc> i think i'm going to have a bit of a spend up tomorrrow. I'm going to buy a nice new keyboard and a nice new mouse since I'm using dualscreen now and using my 24" as the primary instead of my laptop screen. Then maybe i'll consider buying another 24" monitor
<godbyk> humphreybc: don't forget to email the list about this weekend's meeting.
<humphreybc>  yup
<godbyk> sounds like you're spending tons of cash. did you win the lottery?  a grandparent die?  :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> neither
<humphreybc> my living costs are really low this year
<humphreybc> so i can spend stuff quite comfortably
<godbyk> nice
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: what do you need help with in quickshot?
<humphreybc> specifically
<godbyk> humphreybc: making it work. :)
<humphreybc> har har
<humphreybc> i wonder if I can have three monitors by using both VGA and HDMI out on my laptop
<humphreybc> so laptop goes to two 24" dells either side
<humphreybc> ubuntu might have a fit
<humphreybc> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/contributions
<humphreybc> what's happening to the style guide bit on the wiki?
<godbyk> it's a good start.
<godbyk> the style guide on the wiki should just be killed.
<humphreybc> heh
<godbyk> I'm trying to maintain the PDF version.
<godbyk> (the PDF version allows us to show exactly what effect various commands have.)
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> sounds good
<godbyk> humphreybc: have you seen daker's version of the website? it looks pretty nice.
<humphreybc> nope
<godbyk> I think he's got it designed to support multiple languages, too.
<humphreybc> wow cool
<humphreybc> yay!
<godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/daker/
<humphreybc> refresh the manual home page in about 5 seconds
<humphreybc> fantastic!!!
<godbyk> what?
<humphreybc> the site!
<humphreybc> that is great!
<godbyk> got that. refresh what, though?
<humphreybc> stick it as the default test.ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> refresh the wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> where is daker? we need to give him a gold medal
<godbyk> haven't seen him in here for a day or two.
<humphreybc> i think nissh was going to start work on the site from scratch
<humphreybc> but i can tell him not to worry now :)
<humphreybc> daker seems to have it looking pretty smooth
<humphreybc> have you got that permanent link to the english build for me yet?
<godbyk> what do you mean?
<humphreybc> you know on the wiki page under "Download Now!"
<humphreybc> it says "blah blah blah here"
<humphreybc> the here needs to be a hyperlink to a download location where they can get the latest revision
<humphreybc> i'll make a button in photoshop as an image and then link the image
<godbyk> oh.  use http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual.pdf for now.
<humphreybc> ah cool, thanks
<godbyk> make it clear that it's a draft.
<humphreybc> trtue
<humphreybc> true*
<humphreybc> ugh i hate this crappy keyboard
<godbyk> buy a new one. :)
<humphreybc> i keep on reaching over to use my laptop keyboard whenever i switch focus to my laptop screen where IRC is
<humphreybc> so stick the root directory of test.ubuntu-manual.org to dakers folder
<godbyk> okay.  if we're dropping the others, we should send them emails to let them know (so they don't waste time continuing to work on them).
<godbyk> you should probably also give daker a heads-up
<godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/ points to daker now.
<humphreybc> kk
<godbyk> you'll need to let him know so he can fix his links (since we just broke them)
<humphreybc> you got an email address somewhere for him?
<godbyk> yeah, hold on
<humphreybc> okay the wiki home page is pretty much sorted now, have a look
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> godbyk, lot of people on facebook seem to like thorwil's E design for the title page
<humphreybc> it's quite nice
<godbyk> which is his E design?
<humphreybc> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/ubuntu-manual-title-page/
<godbyk> did you see his latest?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> where's tat?
<godbyk> I think it looks more like A on that page.
<humphreybc> we need to develop a very simple set of instructions for authors and editors to start working on the branch from scratch
<humphreybc> so we assume all they have is ubuntu, no knowledge of latex, bzr, launchpad
<godbyk> right
<godbyk> what are the big-picture steps?
<humphreybc> and our goal is to have them able to work on the .tex files and compile the manual, push to main
<humphreybc> well
<godbyk> create launchpad account and join ubuntu-manual team
<humphreybc> they need to set up launchpad, join the team
<humphreybc> heh
<godbyk> install bzr and download branch
<humphreybc> then they need to install stuff
<humphreybc> yup
<godbyk> install texlive 2009 and run install-pkgs.sh
<humphreybc> install texlive 2009, dependencies
<godbyk> translate via launchpad
<humphreybc> translate?
<humphreybc> this is just for authors/editors
<humphreybc> translators are other stuff
<godbyk> ah, 'kay.
<godbyk> so basically: launchpad stuff, bzr stuff, tex stuff, style guide stuff.  that's it, right?
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> but this stuff needs to be super easy
<godbyk> right.. at the moment I'm just outlining to get an idea of what we need to cover.
<godbyk> are there any major things missing there?
<IlyaHaykinson> will the "OMG" in the progress bar eventually change to an OMFGWTFBBQ?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: perhaps :)
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: do you think you will get a chance to address my todos from the installation chapter?
<IlyaHaykinson> i think there are still some problems with those instructions.
<humphreybc> I've seen them, should have a minute to look at them later this week
<humphreybc> Just re-organizing the wiki page at the moment
<humphreybc> have a look at it
<IlyaHaykinson> nod, i saw your changes. thanks for making them -- the wiki pages were getting a bit confusing.
<IlyaHaykinson> new structure is easier.
<humphreybc> if you have a look at the "How you can help" page
<humphreybc> I need help creating all the instructions for each role
<humphreybc> I'm currently working on the instructions for Authors/Editors
<humphreybc> how do you do code in the wiki?
<humphreybc> godbyk http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4439518005/
<godbyk> humphreybc: nice!  much cleaner than my desks!
<IlyaHaykinson> {{{
<IlyaHaykinson> some code
<IlyaHaykinson> }}}
<humphreybc> thanks
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> ground control isn't working at the moment
<humphreybc> so should we just go with CLI bzr?
<humphreybc> for now?
<godbyk> yeah, go with cli bzr.
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: we need to find some testers for the manual
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: one step ahead of you
<IlyaHaykinson> oh?
<humphreybc> the readers of omgubuntu.co.uk are going to be doing some widescale testing for us next week
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, ok, not bad!
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> so we need to make sure our bug system is all in place
<IlyaHaykinson> i would also love to have some linux beginners testing this... you know, our target audience :)
<humphreybc> yeah i know
<humphreybc> they're just testing for grammar stuff
<IlyaHaykinson> the omgubuntu folks?
<IlyaHaykinson> that's not all that helpful.
<IlyaHaykinson> grammar we can do ourselves
<humphreybc> you know, like the ground crew do every morning on an aircraft carrier
<IlyaHaykinson> it's the functional stuff that's difficult
<IlyaHaykinson> like, following all the instructions as described
<IlyaHaykinson> in every single sentence
<humphreybc> well they're testing for that too i guess. but yeah you're right about the target audience
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm very afraid that whlie we really tried, we still end up producing something that's unreadable.
<IlyaHaykinson> at that point we'll want to probably just cut that material from this branch and postpone it till the next edition
<IlyaHaykinson> but we need to know what to cut.
<humphreybc> indeed
<IlyaHaykinson> the grammar... while helpful, isn't the worst of offenses
<IlyaHaykinson> if we get it wrong
<humphreybc> I know. the first release isn't going to be perfect
<IlyaHaykinson> while bad instructions are at lot worse
<humphreybc> as much as I would like it to be
<humphreybc> if you have any ideas on how we can do widescale testing with ubuntu noobs, please, let me know :D
<IlyaHaykinson> hm. three ways. 1) we can create a survey, and encourage people to fill it out afterwards. those responses will be a lot more helpful than just free-form responses.
<humphreybc> I'd like to do that for the omgubuntu thing as well
<IlyaHaykinson> 2) create a "initiate your parent, sibling, or significant other" program for two weeks or so. encourage linux users to get a PC and con/bribe/plead with someone they know to sit down and follow the instructions
<IlyaHaykinson> 3) make a game out of it -- whoever can submit email addresses for the most non-linuxy people that they test the manual on, wins.
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> i like these ideas
<humphreybc> but we'd have to start them now
<humphreybc> because writing freeze is close
<IlyaHaykinson> exactly.
<humphreybc> okay. right now, i don't have enough time to do it myself, as much as I would like to
<humphreybc> if you want to set it up, then email me the details and i'll make sure it gets the necessary publicity
<humphreybc> godbyk, i've done the launchpad and bzr stuff. do you want to do the texlive stuff? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/authors
<godbyk> humphreybc: sure
<humphreybc> thanks :)
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: *sigh* i wish i had the time for this. in the little time i have, i'm doing editing right now.
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess we can do all this testing after the first edition is out.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: okay, no sweat
<humphreybc> Yeah, we're pretty pressed for time right now
<IlyaHaykinson> and make the second edition (or the 10.10 edition) better.
<humphreybc> indeed. I'm sure the community would understand, what we have accomplished thus far has been beyond belief anyway.
<godbyk> We could just call the whole thing off.  <grin>
<humphreybc> and hopefully the release of the first edition will bring a lot of new help our way
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: what i'll need by next week is a very short questionnaire (5 questions or less) that I can include in the omgubuntu.co.uk article
<humphreybc> (i'm a writer for omg! now btw)
<IlyaHaykinson> re omg!, i saw, nice.
<humphreybc> so basically we'll be selling it as a "preview" of the manual
<humphreybc> and we'll be asking for their help in testing instructions, grammar, spelling, sentence structure, spacing etc etc
<humphreybc> we'll give them a very clear set of instructions for how to post bugs so we don't get flooded
<IlyaHaykinson> re survey: if i have time this weekend, i'll try. my company's developers from our China office is visiting us this week, and we have to take them all over Los Angeles (and to Las Vegas) this week to show them around.
<humphreybc> in return, they'll feel like they are a part of the team. we might even get some more contributors out of it
<IlyaHaykinson> that, plus real work, plus this -- been very busy.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: heh, i know how you feel. I'm supposed to be a full time university student
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: what if we just have them email all the bugs to bugs@ubuntu-manual.org?
<humphreybc> godbyk, what instructions should i put for the designers?
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: I think they'd get lost pretty quickly
<IlyaHaykinson> then we can log in, triage the bugs, and launchpad them
<humphreybc> hmm
<IlyaHaykinson> why would it get lost?
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm saying create a separate account, called bugs
<humphreybc> because there will be a tonne of bug reports
<IlyaHaykinson> then log into it and triage after a few days
<godbyk> I think they'll get lost in the bug tracker, too.
<humphreybc> that takes time away from our people though, we want them to do the work
<godbyk> a ton of duplicates, for instance.
<humphreybc> yeah
<IlyaHaykinson> i guarantee you that the compelxity of filing launchpad bugs will prevent most people from doing this
<IlyaHaykinson> i've not filed bug reports probably a half dozen times
<IlyaHaykinson> just for that reaso
<IlyaHaykinson> reason
<humphreybc> okay, well, if you think it's the best way to go, we'll do that
<godbyk> we could have a custom bug-reporting form on the website to file errata.
<godbyk> we could ask what translation they're looking at, page numbers, etc.
<humphreybc> that could work
<IlyaHaykinson> ooh, wait
<IlyaHaykinson> Google Spreadsheets
<IlyaHaykinson> it has a form filling engine
<IlyaHaykinson> you can create an online form, point people to it.
<IlyaHaykinson> and the form just fills in a spreadsheet
<humphreybc> that sounds excellent
<IlyaHaykinson> which we can then review
<godbyk> true. we could easily sort by chapter then.
<godbyk> have each editor handle their own chapters' bugs.
<humphreybc> that sounds like a plan
<humphreybc> and we can have the form on an easy URL, preferably our one?
<humphreybc> like bugs.ubuntu-manual.org
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't remember how the form URLs work, but i think yes.
<humphreybc> excellent!
<godbyk> humphreybc: not sure. but we have own own docs.
<godbyk> http://docs.ubuntu-manual.org/
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> so, to summarize, we want bugs.ubuntu-manual.org to take you to a form
<humphreybc> the form has stuff like page number, translation, bug type (grammatical, sentence structure, spelling, logical) etc, and then a description field
<humphreybc> then the form creates a new line in a spreadsheet
<humphreybc> "bug type" would be a drop down combo box with pre-defined types
<IlyaHaykinson> i would do a "describe the problem" field, and a "suggest a solution" field
<humphreybc> that way, we can prioritize say, logical bugs above grammar
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: ah yes, that's a good idea
<godbyk> right
<humphreybc> what's a good name for a bug type that describes something that "doesn't make sense"
<IlyaHaykinson> i would unify grammar, sentence structure, spelling etc into one item... perhaps "Grammar/Spelling"
<humphreybc> or maybe something that's hard to understand for a beginner
<humphreybc> yep
<godbyk> we can ask what kind of problem with a dropdown: spelling or grammatical error, misinformation, etc.
<humphreybc> ah
<IlyaHaykinson> then another category for "Incorrect Instructions"
<humphreybc> good
<humphreybc> factual error
<IlyaHaykinson> and "Difficult to understand"
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> they're good
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> which translation they're looking at
<IlyaHaykinson> nice.
<godbyk> maybe ask for revision number (it's on the copyright page)
<IlyaHaykinson> nod.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> cool
<godbyk> formatting bugs
<humphreybc> who wants to set up the form? Ilya, since you know about this a bit? well more than me
<humphreybc> I'll probably post the omgubuntu article on Monday the 22nd, ie next week
<humphreybc> and we'll give it a week of testing till Monday the 29th
<humphreybc> our writing freeze is on the 31st
<humphreybc> during the testing week we can fix bugs as they are reported
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i'm very pressed for time. i can try, but it won't happen until Sunday (my time), which may be too late for you
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: okay that's alright. i'll see if I can look into it
<humphreybc> dutchie might do it for us :)
<humphreybc> anyone know how to make an image a link on the wiki?
<IlyaHaykinson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyntaxReference
<IlyaHaykinson> it doesn't seem like there's a way to do this, in moin moin
<humphreybc> there is, found it
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> maybe not
<humphreybc> bummer
<humphreybc> the image looks so nice on the front page
 * IlyaHaykinson thinks the manual is pretty schizophrenic right now: reads like it's been written by 20 authors
<humphreybc> might be because it has been written by 20 authors :P
<IlyaHaykinson> oh, for sure.
<IlyaHaykinson> but that means that we're failing in editing a bit
<IlyaHaykinson> some of this we'll fix for this edition
<IlyaHaykinson> but i think this should be a big push for 10.04 second edition
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> we'll probably release second edition for 10.04 sometime june/july
 * humphreybc likes having a big LCD for work while keeping IRC open on the laptop monitor
<humphreybc> oh yeah, Ilya, http://test.ubuntu-manual.org
<IlyaHaykinson> no css?
<humphreybc> the links to other pages are currently broken, but daker has actually made the other pages too
 * godbyk will never give up his dual-monitor setup.. except maybe for a tri-monitor setup. 
<humphreybc> hmm?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: See http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/daker/ for how it's meant to look/work.
<IlyaHaykinson> ah ok, that's better
<humphreybc> pretty snazzy, no?
<IlyaHaykinson> very, i like
<IlyaHaykinson> though the logo may need to change, now that i think of it.
<humphreybc> the logo is being worked on :P
<IlyaHaykinson> otherwise it looks like "Ubuntu" is the name of the manual project
<humphreybc> thorwil and I are designing a new logo
<IlyaHaykinson> okie dok
<humphreybc> anyone got IE lying around to test it on?
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll test it in the morning from IE
<humphreybc> cool :)
<humphreybc> CS2 under wine does not like dual monitors at all
<ubuntujenkins> morning everyone
<ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson: with the gwibber section, how much detail is needed? So far I am covering/ going to cover how to add/edit accounts, how to change gwibber perefernces. Describe how gwibber displays multiple account and how to post to multiple accounts. is that abut right?
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: sounds good to me.
<ubuntujenkins> cool gwibber is hard to do as its sucj a new program
<IlyaHaykinson> i know! i got confused by it at first.
<ubuntujenkins> I am going to try and finish burning and printing tonight
<IlyaHaykinson> i would also mention that the setup there affects your MeMenu
<ubuntujenkins> good point
<ubuntujenkins> I will have a look at the todos you put in the epmathy section
<IlyaHaykinson> ok. i'm about to push a bunch of wording/grammar/button action changes
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe in 5 mins
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will not be doing anything until tonight (utc)
<ubuntujenkins> I plan to finish most of my writing tonight so I can get my head down in quickshot
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, sounds good
<IlyaHaykinson> thanks!
<ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson: I spoke to matt griffin yesterday and asked him to upload what he had done and reminded him that the content frezze was 21st
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: ok.  i will drop the sections altogether on the 21st if nothing is written -- and may do so anyways, if it's not good enough when uploaded.
<IlyaHaykinson> we need high quality stuff, after all.
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough, hopefully he will upload some stuff soon
<godbyk> thorwil!
<thorwil> godbyk?
<godbyk> So I started coding your cover page in LaTeX.. just to see what issues we were going to encounter.
<thorwil> and you found some hair-ripping delicious issues?
<godbyk> Heh.. nearly.
<godbyk> Not too bad (yet), really.
<godbyk> I just saved the CoF and the five icons as individual PDFs first.
<godbyk> The placed them on the page using hard-coded values: (x, y) coordinates.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, good nite all
<godbyk> The tricker part is with the text.
<godbyk> G'night, IlyaHaykinson
<godbyk> We need to define some text blocks.
<godbyk> So we'll need to figure out the width of the text block, the font size, weight, etc. of the text, and its starting (x, y) position on the page.
<godbyk> (For the title, author, edition, and any other text we end up throwing in there.)
<godbyk> So far I just took your design and hard-coded in some (x,y) coordinates and used the font sizes and whatnot from your SVG.
<thorwil> godbyk: that should be simple, if inkscape and latex agree on how the bounding box is defined
<ubuntujenkins> night IlyaHaykinson
<godbyk> The tricky part comes in when we want to make our design look awesome with translated text.
<godbyk> Getting the translated text in is easy.. it's automatic.
<godbyk> The tricky part comes in where we want the design to look good, still.
<godbyk> So it'll depend on how much time and effort we want to spend on it.
<godbyk> LaTeX is a full-blown programming language, so we can do lots of crazy stuff.
<godbyk> But I wanted to talk to you and have you help me identified what parameters are important to your design and how they're affected by, say, longer or shorter titles, etc.
<godbyk> For instance, do we want to allow the title to wrap onto two lines if it's longer?  Or do we want to scale it down to fit into the width available?
<thorwil> godbyk: scale
<godbyk> how shall we handle right-to-left languages?
<godbyk> do we scale just the title text or the graphics, too, when the text is longer than the english version?
<thorwil> godbyk: guess right-to-left requires flipping the layout
<godbyk> there's a nice balance in your design right now.  but when we start scaling things, we'll have to figure out how to maintain that balance.
<thorwil> godbyk: yes, i actually doubt you can do that automated
<godbyk> If you can codify the ideas behind it, we can automate it. :-)
<thorwil> as in, writing a system that gets it right would be more work than doing it manually
<godbyk> btw, did you adjust the tracking/letterspacing of the title? when I used the same font size in latex, the title was much longer.
<thorwil> yes, i did
<thorwil> kerning, actually
<godbyk> figures!
<godbyk> unless you want to kern each translated title individually, we probably won't have that on our title page. :(
<godbyk> thorwil: right now everything is 'pinned' to the page at absolute (x,y) coordinates.
<godbyk> But if we have, say "Second edition" that should be positioned relative to the title's textbox.
<godbyk> Can you tell me what kind of relations there are? What values are relative, which are constant/absolute?
<thorwil> godbyk: the problem is visual alignment
<thorwil> godbyk: "Second Edition" is left aligned with the title, but actually farther right because of the G shape
<godbyk> right.. it won't be perfect, but I think we can get it pretty good by saying things like, "I want 10pt of space between the bottom of the icons row and the top of the title text," for instance.
<godbyk> I'm going to try to set up the design so that it can be tweaked on a per-language basis (for when/if we get to it).
<godbyk> but we should figure out some 'mostly okay' starting values that can work with the majority of the translations.
<thorwil> godbyk: did you have a look at the layout layers?
<humphreybc> godbyk check out the front wiki page
<godbyk> then we can tweak the english one to make sure it looks perfect and also tweak the worst-looking translations.
<godbyk> thorwil: I did, yes, but I couldn't which values you considered important.
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool
<humphreybc> looks good now :P
<thorwil> godbyk: that reminds me that i actually don't want to be listed as artwork team lead
<godbyk> thorwil: trying to escape blame?  ;-)
<humphreybc> lol
<thorwil> godbyk: kinda. i have nothing to do with the wiki header and the website. and there is not much of a team; i surely don't lead you ;)
<humphreybc> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1171112&l=48b3e56933&id=1171655966
<godbyk> thorwil: fair enough.  should we dissolve the notion of an 'artwork team' and just credit the individuals with their contributions?
<thorwil> godbyk: yes, please
<godbyk> so thorwil gets credited with the cover design and new logo
<godbyk> I'll take the blame for the interior design
<godbyk> whowever's been busy on the website gets the credit there.
<godbyk> sounds like a plan to me!
<humphreybc> and i take blame for the failure of the whole project ;P
<nisshh> yes!
<nisshh> muhahaha
<nisshh> no seriously what are you talking about
<godbyk> I'm also going to be redesigning the 'credits/contributions' chapter in the manual.  make it more of a colophon and have it look a bit more interesting.
<thorwil> godbyk: how to call mission-statement/audience/tone/message thing? design-briefing?
<godbyk> thorwil: hmm.. that sounds good to me.
<godbyk> (not coming up with anything better at the moment!)
<thorwil> godbyk: want the credit for that ;)
<godbyk> lol, nope, I'll leave that one for you. :)
<humphreybc> lol
<nisshh> humphreybc: if you test the new website in chrome, i can test it in firefox, how is that?
<thorwil> godbyk: yes, (I) want the credit for that ;)
<humphreybc> i've already tested it out in chrome and firefox :)
<humphreybc> looks good
<humphreybc> but we need testing in IE6, 7 and 8
<humphreybc> and Opera
<humphreybc> and Safari
<godbyk> isn't there a site where you can submit the url and they'll email screenshots of what it looks like in all these browsers?
<humphreybc> that sounds awesome
<thorwil> there are services like that, but a free one?
<godbyk> maybe browsershots.org?
<godbyk> (waiting for it to load)
<thorwil> godbyk: anyway, the layout. vertical golden ratio to place the middle of the CoF (need the circle, can't use bounding box with the poijnter in it)
<godbyk> okay, that one's easy.
<thorwil> godbyk: another golden section of the larger part of the previous to set the vertical center of the wave-of-friends
<godbyk> okay
<godbyk> how do you get the vertical positions of the row of icons and the title and the edition?
<thorwil> godbyk: do you happen to know the latin->english terms for the parts of a golden section?
<nisshh> humphreybc: which version of firefox have you tested it in because im using ff 3.6 and its kinda screwed up
<humphreybc> i think 3.6?
<godbyk> the parts of a golden section?  there are terms for that?  it's just a ratio or continued fraction.
<nisshh> hmmm, strange that it is fine for you but messed up for me
<godbyk> thorwil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio refers to the longer segment as 'a' and the shorter as 'b', if that helps any.
<thorwil> godbyk: in german there's Major and Minor. would think could be the same in english, but found no mention
<godbyk> Ah, you can use those terms if you like.  The exist in English, too.
<godbyk> They're the same words for Latin and English.
<nisshh> humphreybc: can you open up the file under /website/index.html and see if any of the text or border elements are messed up?
<thorwil> godbyk: vertical position of icons ... top is oriented towards top of the CoF, but with visual compensation
<godbyk> that 'visual compensation' thing is gonna be a pain. :)
<godbyk> I'll just add a variable in there that we can tweak for the compensation aspect.
<thorwil> godbyk: icon row bottom happens to be just a tad below the major of the page height
<godbyk> a feature inkscape should have: allowing me to put guidelines on a layer (so I can selectively turn them on or off easily)
<godbyk> are the icons centered vertically with respect to each other, top-aligned, bottom-aligned, or just visually aligned on an individual basis?
<thorwil> godbyk: visually aligned on an individual basis
<thorwil> on both axis
<humphreybc> for a laff, check out the latest post: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/
<godbyk> somehow I knew you were going to say that! :)
<thorwil> godbyk: btw, i messed up title_page_a4.svg a bit. height are not correct
<nisshh> hehe
<godbyk> thorwil: no worries. if you fix it in your bzr branch, I'll grab the latest updates later.
<godbyk> thorwil: can you explain the vertical spacing for the title text and edition text?
<thorwil> godbyk: you won't be happy. it's balanced with the space between title and icons, taking the descender of the g of Getting into account
<godbyk> Of course it is.  :)
<godbyk> Okay, I think the covers all the vertical positions.. how about horizontal?
<godbyk> edge of paper to the left edge (or center or whatever) of the CoF?
<thorwil> godbyk: look at the blue lines in the layout layer
<godbyk> I see them
<thorwil> godbyk: the WoF is placed such that it is cut on the edge in a nice way. then i aligned things with the dots
<thorwil> (no heads are severed)
<godbyk> heh
<godbyk> Well, I don't think I'll be able to orchestrate it based on that.
<godbyk> Is it okay if the CoF is just x pt from the left edge and everything else follows from that?
<godbyk> And we set some right margin as well?
<thorwil> godbyk: why? you do have absolute values here
<thorwil> godbyk: only on the rigth, aligning to the stem of the 4 is mean
<thorwil> godbyk: but i'm really starting to think that we would be better off working with SVGs per translation
<godbyk> Well, if the CoF band has a hard left edge that I can set at the edge of the paper and let it bleed off the right edge, then that's okay.
<godbyk> you think so?
<godbyk> all 50 of 'em?
<godbyk> I'm happy to let you do it, if you want. :-)
<thorwil> godbyk: either someone takes care of each single one, or they will look awful
<godbyk> I don't know that they'll look *awful*, but they won't look great.
<humphreybc> they have to look great ;)
<godbyk> humphreybc: you're a right bastard!  <grin>
<humphreybc> pretty much :)
<humphreybc> did you see my latest omgubuntu post? lol
<godbyk> not yet. chrome keeps freaking out on that site.
<godbyk> just spins with the site half-drawn until it times out and wants me to kill the tab.
<godbyk> lemme load firefox
<godbyk> firefox always works. :)
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> I don't have time right now to hand-tune each cover page, but if someone else wants to, I can sure write code to handle it.
<thorwil> humphreybc, godbyk: if we can get translators to copy the 2 SVGs and put in the translated strings, it would be feasible, i think
<godbyk> thorwil: how about if I just get you the translated strings?
<godbyk> (the translators have to translate them in the .tex files already)
<thorwil> godbyk: only if you can generate the SVGs via string replacement
<godbyk> and *I* get accused of being lazy!  <grin>
<thorwil> see, with such a batch, cutting out every little bit means a huge gain
<thorwil> godbyk: we should split l-to-r and r-to-l languages
<godbyk> I hear ya.
<godbyk> That's why I was hoping we could program it in LaTeX and get most of the way there for free.
<thorwil> is it common to mirror page layout for those?
<godbyk> Generally, I think that's true.
<godbyk> Though I really have no idea.  I'm have to figure that out soon, too, so I can fix the interior design to accommodate RTL languages.
<thorwil> snippet from the SVG: y="441.80502">Getting Started with Ubuntu îî.îî</tspan></text>
<thorwil> encoding="UTF-8"
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> I could probably write a script to translate that.
<godbyk> (once the translators have finished translating the strings required.)
<godbyk> I just updated the title of the manual yesterday or the day before.
<godbyk> I'm not sure if dutchie has pushed a new translation template yet.
<thorwil> godbyk: afaics the only issue with search-and-replace in the SVG would be to make sure its îî.îî and not 10.04
<thorwil> godbyk: oh, do we have languages where we need another font?
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> Yes. Yes, we do.
<godbyk> quite a few of them actually.
<thorwil> the font definitions in SVG are a bit odd
<godbyk> great.
<godbyk> also, it'll have to support opentype tags, too.
<godbyk> so we can tell it what language to use, what script to use, etc.
<godbyk> I was raked over the coals by one of the Telugu translators because nothing looked right (with the font I'd selected for Telugu).
<thorwil> godbyk: aside of font-style, font-weight and a few others, there's font-family:Linux Biolinum O;-inkscape-font-specification:Linux Biolinum O
<godbyk> Turns out that if you forget to tell the font that you're typesetting things in Telugu, it moves glyphs around on you.
<godbyk> yeah, we'll need to set the language and script, too.
<thorwil> guess i should save plain svg
<godbyk> hopefully it doesn't lose the kerning and tracking then.
 * godbyk doesn't know what features svg supports.
<humphreybc> it's really cold
<godbyk> It's warming up here, finally
<humphreybc> it's 5 degrees
<nisshh> thats damn cold
<humphreybc> i know :(
<godbyk> .That's about what it is here.
<godbyk> That's a LOT warmer than it has been.
<humphreybc> celcius?
<godbyk> yep
<nisshh> meh its like 18 degreees here
<humphreybc> shutup ryan :P
<nisshh> hehe
<godbyk> heh
<humphreybc> i'm hungry
<godbyk> It's supposed to get up to 10 degrees C tomorrow.  It's going to be awesome!
<nisshh> arrhg stop it! your making me hungry!
<godbyk> Unfortunately it's supposed to be back to 0 on Saturday.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> might get a burger..
<nisshh> wow thats alot of up and down
<humphreybc> what do i need to do?
<nisshh> godbyk = usa?
<humphreybc> i've got another hour or so before i should hit the sack
<godbyk> well, 10 is the high for the week.. it's been around 7 every other day this week so far.
<godbyk> nisshh: yeah.
<nisshh> godbyk: its winter there right?
<godbyk> nisshh: yep.. just about spring, though.  (finally!)
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> its end of summer here
<humphreybc> godbyk, pfft, like you're ever allowed outside
<nisshh> just starting to get cold
<nisshh> lol
<godbyk> humphreybc: heh.. no doubt
<godbyk> okay, well, I'm off to bed.  I'll see you guys later!
<nisshh> cya dude
<thorwil> cya
<thorwil> ouch, saving plain svg means losing layers
<humphreybc> chow kevin
<dutchie> humphreybc: what was that thing you wanted me to do?
<humphreybc> dutchie: set up a form and stuff, read the logs... i'll tell you in a sec. eating a burger :D
<dutchie> humphreybc: on ubuntu-manual.org?
<humphreybc> yeah using google spreadsheet
<dutchie> using google spreadsheet?
<dutchie> I could probably throw together a django app or some such
<humphreybc> dutchie, so here's the dela
<humphreybc> deal*
<humphreybc> next week we're going to do some wide scale testing with omgubuntu readers
<humphreybc> instead of having them report bugs on launchpad, we want to simplify stuff by having them complete a form somewhere
<dutchie> (have to go in 10 mins)
<humphreybc> then we can take the results and do our own triaging, then put them on launchpad
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> so basically we want the form to have fields for: language, page number, revision number, bug type*, description of the problem and then "Suggest a solution"
<dutchie> my instinct would be to stick the results in a sqlite table or something, not had much experience with the google docs api
<humphreybc> yeah so google spreadsheet has a form engine
<humphreybc> basically every form entry goes into a spreadsheet
<humphreybc> like, into a row
<humphreybc> godbyk enabled google apps for ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> so we should be able to use it already
<humphreybc> if you could set up the form at bugs.ubuntu-manual.org that would be cool
<humphreybc> as for the bug type, this will be a dropdown combo box with pre-defined bug types
<humphreybc> such as: Grammar/Spelling, Doesn't make sense, Factual error, Inconsistency etc as options
<humphreybc> the thing will run for a week from the 22nd to the 29th march
<humphreybc> so that's next week
<humphreybc> got all that?
<dutchie> got a linky for info on the form engine?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> yep: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=87809
<humphreybc> http://docs.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?topic=15115
<humphreybc> i'm sure you'll have it set up in like 20 minutes
<dutchie> erm, yeah ;)
<humphreybc> :)
<dutchie> I'll have another look when I've got a proper internet connection
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> so basically you've got until saturday
<humphreybc> and then you can show us at the meeting :)
<humphreybc> also dutchie
<humphreybc> i've re-done the wiki
<dutchie> I did see a bit
<humphreybc> there's now a "How you can help" page where a tonne of stuff is going to be merged
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/contributions
<dutchie> you have 30 seconds to convince me this is more important than my maths lesson
<humphreybc> the idea is that you hit the link on what you're interested in and it takes you to instructions
<humphreybc> can you please do the instructions for the translations
<dutchie> will do
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/translators
<humphreybc> there's the page
<humphreybc> thanks!
<dutchie> right, I'm off then
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> chow
<ubuntujenkins> hello again all
<daker> hi @all
<ubuntujenkins> hello daker
<daker> fine ?
<ubuntujenkins> yes I am great, yourself?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: as far as you know is everything in place for quickshot?
<daker> ubuntujenkins, fine :)
<ubuntujenkins> thats good
<daker> see you later
<daker> i'll be back
<thorwil> i guess with right-to-left languages, the mouse pointer would still be an arrow to top left?
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, no, not yet. I had nearly zero free time last week.
<Red_HamsterX> I'll be working on it today after taking a call in a few minutes.
<Red_HamsterX> +comma
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, whenever you have time, take a look at my changes in quickshot. It uses progress bars now for long operations without freezing the gui
<ubuntujenkins> thats cool Red_HamsterX, titeuf_87 I will have a look now
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, it's something simple, but at least now the gui doesn't freeze anymore
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: its just what it needs, can we add one that appears after the quickshot user presses the first next button?
<titeuf_87> what does it do then that is slow?
<ubuntujenkins> detects which graphics driver that is in use, if it finds a card that we don't support it displays a different screen
<titeuf_87> ah right, I'll add it there too
<ubuntujenkins> thanks, should quickshot detected the language in use and diplayed it in the screenshot window?
<titeuf_87> it does so now too, or at least I think it does, still need to test that with other languages
<ubuntujenkins> it doesn't work I gave it a test
<titeuf_87> does it crash there? Or you can still use it normally?
<ubuntujenkins> I logged in with english gb and it showd english gb. I logged out changed it to "south african" logged back in. and went through the motions and south africa english wasn't shown.
<ubuntujenkins> the $LANG varablie had changed though
<ubuntujenkins> you can use it normally
<titeuf_87> Ah I didn't use that but the locale module in python. I'll take a look at that too
<ubuntujenkins> Thank you, I will be in and out all evening so ping me and I will get back to you asap
<titeuf_87> ok :)
<daker> godbyk, !!
<daker> godbyk,
<daker> daker@daker-laptop:~/ubuntu-manual$ bzr pull
<daker> Using saved parent location: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/
<daker> bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how.
<daker> Use the merge command to reconcile them.
<dutchie> daker: you've made commits that haven't been pushed, while other people pushed their commits
<dutchie> lo humphreybc
<humphreybc> hiya
<humphreybc> it's freakin' early
<humphreybc> and i haven't had a shower yet because i've run out of towels
<humphreybc> godbyk why are all the chapter and section links broken?
<dutchie> I'm not sure if that Google Spreadsheet -> form thing is ideal
<humphreybc> no?
<humphreybc> howcome?
<godbyk-android> I didn't know they were broken. Can you explain more?
<dutchie> afaict, it's for emailing it to people, rather than producing web forms
<dutchie> only had a brief look at it though
<godbyk-android> I'll be back in 30 minutes...going to take a shower, too.
<humphreybc> dutchie: hmm okay. if it doesn't work you may have to work out something else
<dutchie> when did it need to be done by again?
<humphreybc> saturday?
<cjohnston> humphreybc: mind a PM?
<humphreybc> cjohnston: sure
<humphreybc> go for it
<humphreybc> hey dutchie
<humphreybc> jono was just saying to me that there is something that already exists with LP
<humphreybc> you can have a form be filled in, then get sent to LP and it does a duplicate search for you, then reports the bug
<humphreybc> godbyk, build pauses on
<humphreybc> include{installation/installation}
<humphreybc> l.181 A new \dialog will appear...
<humphreybc> l.185 ...the new user can be changed in the \dialog{Users Settings}
<humphreybc> l.191 \item A ccount type:
<humphreybc> and l.192
<godbyk-android> Dialog isn't a command. Try \window.
<godbyk> Okay, back at my computer now.
<godbyk> dutchie: Have we updated the pot recently?
<dutchie> no
<dutchie> I was avoiding doing it until bug 535731 was fixed
<manualbot`> Launchpad bug 535731 in widelands "Masking doesn't work on Mac" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/535731
<dutchie> erm, not that one
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> bug 535371
<manualbot`> Launchpad bug 535371 in ubuntu "Translations keep disappearing" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/535371
<humphreybc> dutchie: i don't think that's going to be fixed because it's not a bug
<humphreybc> rosetta was never really designed for this sort of thing
<humphreybc> godbyk, i just pushed some changes, didn't fix the make errors. you can do that if you like :P
<dutchie> humphreybc: we can hope
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> hey, it's lucid beta today
<dutchie> also, whitespace changes should probably be dealt with better
<godbyk> yeah, it seems like it's not good at handling paragraphs.
<humphreybc> anyone know how to select all of a particular label in gmail?
<godbyk> humphreybc: just go to that label, then select all.
<humphreybc> be back in a sec, going to have a shower before the other flatmates get in and use up the hot water
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> back
<humphreybc> i'm going to whip up some buttons for the wiki help thing, so instead of having "click here" there will be a big button
<humphreybc> just trying to think of the best wording
<humphreybc> "Find out more about being an Author" is a bit too long
<humphreybc> Think I'll go with "Become an Author"
<humphreybc> woohoo! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/contributions
<humphreybc> dutchie, could you write up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/translators as soon as you have a minute?
<dutchie> oh yeah, forgot about that ;)
<humphreybc> he
<humphreybc> I've done all the other ones
<humphreybc> well, godbyk needs to do the latex section for the authors/editors
<humphreybc> i made some pretty colourful buttons
<humphreybc> don't they look nice?
<godbyk> humphreybc: not bad. though now you need to fix the formatting of the step-by-step instructions. :)
<humphreybc> what's wrong with the formatting?
<godbyk> some things are numbered lists, others are fake numbered lists, others are "Step 1".. there's no consistency.
<godbyk> where do you want me to put the latex instructions?
<humphreybc> at the bottom
<humphreybc> underneath the branch instructions. it should be in order
<humphreybc> where it says "coming soon..." at the bottom: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/authors
<dutchie> humphreybc: done
<humphreybc> mint!
<dutchie> if you'd like it longer, I can do
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> look at that link i posted just up above
<humphreybc> if you could make it more steppy and use hyperlinks instead of pasting the URLs that would be cooler
<humphreybc> make it *really* easy, assume the translator knows nothing
<humphreybc> you can copy and paste the Launchpad account stuff from the authors page
<godbyk> humphreybc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/authors I've added the TeX Live instructions
<ubuntujenkins> evening all
<titeuf_87> hey ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> hello titeuf_87
<humphreybc> godbyk, awesome
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, can you check if you have python-pybabel installed?
<ubuntujenkins> sure
 * dutchie bites the bullet and updates the translations
<dutchie> 136 translated messages, 33 fuzzy translations, 1319 untranslated messages.
<humphreybc> if you could add in something that points them to the style guide, or lets them download the style guide to read, that would be cool. by style guide I mean your PDF. I can create a button for you if you want it to stand out
<dutchie> it's not looking good so far
<humphreybc> dutchie: eek
<humphreybc> well, writing freeze is coming up..
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: it is now
<godbyk> k
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, quickshot will now crash when using Afrikaans as language normally. For whatever reason babel doesn't seem to support it (haven't looked too much into it yet)
 * humphreybc adds the tools collage image to the front page
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87:  ok I just used Afrikaans at random. does it work with other languages?
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, it does with English and Dutch, maybe some other languages that are broken too
<ubuntujenkins> ok I will have a go
<humphreybc> hmm.. "Get involved" or "How you can help us" ?
<dutchie> get involved
<dutchie> more active
<humphreybc> sweet
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: I think i need something else installed as I have tried 6 languages including Netherlands (A***)
<ubuntujenkins> I can't remember the exact name
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, yeah, I'll have to find another way to retrieve the language. I know how to get the short code (like en_US and such), but not how to get a "nice" name to show the user
<ubuntujenkins> I do like the "nice" name i was impressed. I have a list somewhere of the nice name equivilents for abotu 45 of our languages
<titeuf_87> well I guess I could include the whole list in quickshot itself, would take away some troubles then
<ubuntujenkins> i will have ahunt for it
<titeuf_87> no need for it, I have it somewhere here too
<ubuntujenkins> o well you can have what i ahve anyway :-) http://paste.ubuntu.com/396951/
 * ubuntujenkins tries to finish writing so he can do quickshot work
<ubuntujenkins> quickshot is so fun
<humphreybc> glad you enjoy it!
<ubuntujenkins> it suprising how much python I have learnt python docs now make some sense
<dutchie> best way to learn a language is to write something in it
<ubuntujenkins> I haven't written much of it but ic an fix bugs on some parts
<humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/ubuntu-manual-project-wiki-gets.html
<humphreybc> :)
<ubuntujenkins> nice
 * humphreybc needs to get going to his lecture
<ubuntujenkins> have fun :-)
<ubuntujenkins> Just finishing off the the brasero section for what legal reason would you want to copy a disc
<ubuntujenkins> days_of_ruin:just got the e-mail how would you like to help with quickshot?
<days_of_ruin> yeah
<days_of_ruin> I would like to help with OpenShot
<ubuntujenkins> what are your skills all help is welcome
<days_of_ruin> I know a lot about pyGtk
<ubuntujenkins> thats good we are not linked with openshot, it appears that is a differnet projects
<ubuntujenkins> you are welcome to help with quickshot
<days_of_ruin> errr quickshot, I always get the confused
<days_of_ruin> :P
<ubuntujenkins> no problem
<ubuntujenkins> I have just approved you, if you get the current branch and give it ago you can get it by doing bzr branch lp:quickshot
<days_of_ruin> ok, thanks
<ubuntujenkins> We are using quickly so to run the project, change to the directory and do quiclky run -r
<ubuntujenkins> *quickly run -r
<ubuntujenkins> see what you think
<ubuntujenkins> I have loads of bits to do tomorrow to bring it in with gnoem hig
 * ubuntujenkins needs to update the quickshot wiki
 * nisshh only got 4 hours sleep lsat night
<ubuntujenkins> sounds like my sunday night
<nisshh> hehe
<ubuntujenkins> I spent the night doing quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> days_of_ruin: what do you think?
<nisshh> get much hacking done?
<ubuntujenkins> some bugs fixed and a little tinkering, did more manual writing as well. Never as much as I would like.
<nisshh> no that you always dont get everything you want done
<nisshh> never happens
<ubuntujenkins> thats true I should be in bed trying to finish my manual work
<nisshh> hehe anyway iv got to go to college now cyas later
<days_of_ruin> ubuntujenkins, Indenting is supposed to be done with 4 spaces right?
<ubuntujenkins> yes which file is that mistake done in? It may have been my when i first started
<days_of_ruin> I have found a few files with tabs in them, in quickly/lib I'll fix them.
<ubuntujenkins> hang on
<ubuntujenkins> do you mean quickshot/lib?
<days_of_ruin> doh! yeah, thats what i mean
<days_of_ruin> :P
<ubuntujenkins> thats ok then feel free
<ubuntujenkins> I didn't write that bit :-)
 * ubuntujenkins is glad i din't make a mistake for a change :-)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-18
<ubuntujenkins> days_of_ruin: I started learning python at the start of quickshot  so my python knowledge is not that good. however I like to know of any mistakes I may make so I can learn from them.
<ubuntujenkins> the other main devlopers on the project are Red_HamsterX titeuf_87 TommyBrunn , humphreybc is the overall manual lead. With help form the manual team as well
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: make has failed http://paste.ubuntu.com/397001/
<ubuntujenkins> I have done an upload and forgot to check for command typos, but thus isn't caused by command typos
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: does the graphics/cover-cof.pdf file exist?
<godbyk> it should be in the repository
 * ubuntujenkins checks
<ubuntujenkins> nope not there
<godbyk> you're right. that's weird.
<godbyk> one sec, let me add them.
<ubuntujenkins> I may have broken the make I some times type \textbf{} as \textfb{}or which ever way it is
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: bzr pull and try it again.
<godbyk> there's another bug I'm trying to fix right now, too.
<ubuntujenkins> I have the files
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: are you working on the preferences/hardware/printing stuff?
<ubuntujenkins> its missing a ./  I think I have no clue wher erhe file is
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<ubuntujenkins> I made a typo?
<ubuntujenkins> I usually check but its late and i forgot.
<ubuntujenkins> at least before I uploaded
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: line 72 has an extra opening brace after \dropdown.
<ubuntujenkins> crazy feel free to remove it
<Red_HamsterX> Ooh. Someone was actually uploading screencaps to the test server.
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: I tried to yesterday but have no clue how
<Red_HamsterX> http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/data/test@en_US@1268843577.png eems to explain it.
<ubuntujenkins> It is probably days_of_ruin he is looking at the code.
<Red_HamsterX> I haven't tried using anything other than the Python interpreter.
<ubuntujenkins> days_of_ruin: met Red_HamsterX
<Red_HamsterX> That URL is where I currently have the debug code staged.
<ubuntujenkins> nope its titeuf_87
<Red_HamsterX> I'm planning to get zipfile-based extraction working in a few minutes.
<Red_HamsterX> Then basic authentication.
<Red_HamsterX> And then full details about the state of collected screenshots.
<ubuntujenkins> sweet sounds like a plan. I have  a little more manual writting to do, but i am playing with the gui as well
<Red_HamsterX> I'm still nowhere near being ready to play with the GUI.
<ubuntujenkins> kevin's log razes loads of bugs/things to change on it
<ubuntujenkins> we are aiming to have a working version between the 21st to the 31st of this month the nearer the 21t the better
<ubuntujenkins> are you able to make the manual meeting on sunday?
<ubuntujenkins> 8.00 pm utc
<Red_HamsterX> It doesn't look like PHP will let me serve a zipfile from memory... I'll probably have to generate one on disk and then link to it.
<Red_HamsterX> I should be able to be there.
<ubuntujenkins> cool screenshots is an adgenda item , we need to show that we can get it done
<Red_HamsterX> It seems titeuf figured out how to use the API, or else those images wouldn't be on my server.
<Red_HamsterX> Once I make it possible to easily get them from the server to your hands, we should have a primitive workflow model.
<Red_HamsterX> (Downloading them one at a time works, but having pre-named files in an archive would be much easier)
<Red_HamsterX> Can you link to the web interface of the bzr branch that wil actually contain the final screenshots?
<ubuntujenkins> That would be much easier.I am hoping to have a team to verify the screenshots I don't want to do all 2500 on my own
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, yes. Of course.
<ubuntujenkins> hang on
<Red_HamsterX> I'm planning to zip the latest version of each file, pre-named for simple drag-and-drop, into an archive bearing the locale's name. These archives will be generated on demand.
<ubuntujenkins> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots?field.lifecycle=ALL they will all be split in languages then merged in to main regularly or at least that was the original plan.
<Red_HamsterX> The catch is that the veriiers will need a reference image to make sure the one they're working with is appropriate.
<ubuntujenkins> I think we shall produce model ones in english
<Red_HamsterX> Which will likely be the en_US or en_UK branch.
<Red_HamsterX> Assuming they're not the same.
<ubuntujenkins> en_US to follow manual protocol
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, so it's just a subdirectory under the ubuntu-manual branch?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk I may have accidentally added english australian to the languages list, i mentioned it to a bored tranlator
<Red_HamsterX> Okay, that'll make the lookup script easy.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: no worries. I don't have to do anything special for that one, at least.
<ubuntujenkins> I have written the script to merge the branches
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: thats a good
 * ubuntujenkins the screenshot total is at 2550
<Red_HamsterX> Will they be merged periodically or is there a special holding area I should be checking?
<Red_HamsterX> (To avoid telling users to capture already-done screencaps)
<Red_HamsterX> s/periodically/regularly/
<ubuntujenkins> it would be best to check the individual language branches if possible, I hope to merge to main once/twice a week it needs 55 commits
<Red_HamsterX> It's possible, but costly, time-wise.
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87 is sorting out detecting the current language in use
<Red_HamsterX> The bzr handshake takes several seconds.
<ubuntujenkins> If you only check the laguage in use at the time that is fine surley?
<Red_HamsterX> It might be possible to detect the current language by using the Gnome API.
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, yes, that would be fine.
<ubuntujenkins> We are only letting the user take screenshots of the language that they are logged in at at the time
<Red_HamsterX> But does each one have a special branch?
<Red_HamsterX> What's the bzr branch naming convention for them?
<ubuntujenkins> typing $LANG in the terminal give the curent language
<Red_HamsterX> In that case, import locale; locale.getcurrentlocale() should work.
<ubuntujenkins> the branches are on the page i linked the naming convetion matches the launchpad translation one
<Red_HamsterX> Or not...
<Red_HamsterX> sys.env, then.
<ubuntujenkins> there are about 6 languages missing I am yet to make the branches for them
<Red_HamsterX> Can you give me an example checkout command for one of them?
<Red_HamsterX> Give titeuf 'os.environ.get('LANG')' if you see him before I do.
<ubuntujenkins> will do
<godbyk> are we still planning on having them check out the screenshots branch or were we going with the route of just having quickshot upload it to ubuntu-manual.org via http?  (or are you talking about something completely different?)
<ubuntujenkins> bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-screenshots/ar
<Red_HamsterX> Are you sure it's a good idea to subdivide things by chapter?
<ubuntujenkins> that can be chnaged Red_HamsterX
<Red_HamsterX> If chapters are rearranged or something, you'll have a lot of branches to update.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk the comfimed good ones go in the bzr branches and quickshot uploads to the server
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: I will chnage them that is a good point
<ubuntujenkins> made sense at the time
<Red_HamsterX> It might still make sense.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm just voicing a concern.
<godbyk> if you wait until after the writing freeze, the chapters should be solidified then.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't mind just having each branch as a folder thats fine
<ubuntujenkins> have we got the naming convetion finailzed?
<Red_HamsterX> I'm writing the import/export routines to be convention-agnostic on my end.
<Red_HamsterX> They'll translate as neededd.
<Red_HamsterX> -d
<ubuntujenkins> just realized i don't care either My script will still work
<ubuntujenkins> I am going off to bed night guys. Thanks for all your hard work
<Red_HamsterX> You, too.
<Red_HamsterX> Sorry i was gone all last week.
<ubuntujenkins> no problem at all
 * humphreybc just got a new keyboard and mouse
<humphreybc> it is microsoft, but it's wireless... and apart from the window switcher button, it's amazing
<humphreybc> it's so nice to tpye with
<humphreybc> i just want to tpye
<humphreybc> type*
<humphreybc> all the time
<humphreybc> type type type yay
<humphreybc> best of all, all of the media buttons and shortcut keys work in Ubuntu
<humphreybc> it's amaxing
<humphreybc> pah, it even comes with a CD for drivers. I don't need drivers, I run UBUNTU
<humphreybc> best hardware support of them all
<humphreybc> problem now is that I have three microsoft logos on my desk.
<godbyk> except for that spelling error bug in microsoft's keyboard..
<godbyk> Am I missing anything or should anything be changed? http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dHRrYlR0Q0RMRXRTaXJuR2w0QjFUcXc6MA
 * humphreybc thinks that IDE hard drives should go faster than 1.2MB/sec
<godbyk> hey, humphreybc. I'm here now.
<humphreybc> ah, godbyk, i was going to ask you about IDE drives and jumpers and stuff, but i worked it out :)
<godbyk> ah, gotcha. cool.
<humphreybc> I put another couple of drives in my server... now just have to sort stuff out, so i'm moving things around and it's taking forever
<godbyk> I'm currently rewriting my build script so that it can compile multiple translations simultaneously.
<humphreybc> currently moving 30,000 photos totally 65GB from one drive to another... 14 hours left
<godbyk> (tired of it taking half an hour to compile all the translations serially.)
<humphreybc> oO simultaneous building huh
<humphreybc> you could just write another script that runs your other script 50 times....?
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> that's kind of what's going to happen. :)
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> currently transferring stuff at 1.3MB/sec... does that sound about right for two IDE drives?
<humphreybc> I would have thought it might have been a bit faster
<godbyk> possibly. depends on the drives, the IDE bus speed, etc.
<humphreybc> WDC 500GB 7200RPM to a Seagate Barracuda 7200RM 320GB
<humphreybc> no idea about bus speed
<godbyk> humphreybc: did you see bug 540722?
<manualbot`> Launchpad bug 540722 in ubuntu-manual "Wrong link address on translators wiki page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540722
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> dutchie, good one
<humphreybc> fixed
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> i really really really like using this monitor as a monitor
<humphreybc> i need to buy another one
<humphreybc> godbyk, that form is choice
<humphreybc> i just tested it out
<humphreybc> I think that's pretty satisfactory, will do the trick well.
<humphreybc> can we stick it at bugs.ubuntu-manual.org ?
<godbyk> yeah, though I think I'll put it at ubuntu-manual.org/bugs or ubuntu-manual.org/errata instead
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> probably /bugs is best
<godbyk> (that way we can save b.u-m.o in case we ever decide to use our own bug tracker or something.)
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> good forward thinking :)
<godbyk> btw, I think we should adopt daker's site, put some effort into making sure it's all working well, and then put our temporary page as the main page on that site until we fill in the rest.
<godbyk> also, you and thorwil should settle on a new logo soon. :)
<humphreybc> wait hang on, so have daker's site at ubuntu-manual.org?
<humphreybc> get rid of the countdown?
<godbyk> put daker's site at ubuntu-manual.org, but we can change the front page to show the countdown and other stuff until we're ready to switch to daker's current front page.
<humphreybc> kk
<godbyk> 'cause then we can start integrating all our other stuff into the site instead of maintaining two or more sites.
<humphreybc> k sounds good
<humphreybc> Jackie Chan tweets a lot
<humphreybc> i might make something to eat now
<humphreybc> right, two pies in the oven :)
<humphreybc> godbyk, if you're interested, i got a power meter today and hooked it up with the server. Says the server uses about 52W at idle when I had just one HDD, 66W idle with all three HDDs and currently at 79W while it's copying stuff between two HDDs
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool
<godbyk> what'd the power meter cost?
<humphreybc> like $20
<humphreybc> you can also put in how much your power is per watt
<humphreybc> and then it'll tell you how much it's costing to run whatever you've got plugged in
<humphreybc> is there anything I need to do asap for UMP?
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> hmm.. probably. :)
<humphreybc> well dont just say that, what needs to be done? :P
<godbyk> Lemme look, hold on.
<godbyk> humphreybc: have you written instructions for editing the .tex files, compiling, and committing/pushing the changes back to the branch yet?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> kinda was hoping you'd do that .... :P
<godbyk> heh.. nice try!
<humphreybc> wow, mark is right on time for work
<godbyk> ?
<humphreybc> "sabdfl signed in"
<godbyk> ah
<humphreybc> and it's 9:03pm my time, which means it's 9:03am in london
<godbyk> right
<humphreybc> 3 minutes past nine and he's already at his desk and logged into IRC :P
<thorwil> i was under the impression it's 8:04 in london
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> so it is!
<humphreybc> well, he's really early then xD
<humphreybc> hey so thorwil, we need to talk logos :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: everyone but you seems to be fine with the star-like approach
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> there's the surprise of the century :P
 * thorwil notices referrer links from facebook 
<humphreybc> heh, yep, i linked our facebook fans to your page
<humphreybc> okay, let's decide on a title page and a logo now
<thorwil> humphreybc: title page A
<humphreybc> I was going to say b :P
<humphreybc> I'd like to get dots in there somewhere
<godbyk> humphreybc: you and your dots fetish..
<thorwil> humphreybc: won't happen
<humphreybc> thorwil: why not?
<godbyk> I vetoed it. :-P
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> the dots are supposed to be for techie/engineering stuff, right?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> close dots are for enterprise
<humphreybc> wide spaced dots are for community
<godbyk> ah
<thorwil> humphreybc: "When you see widely spaced patterns of dots, or outline images and figures, thatâs signalling that the content is more engineering-oriented than end-user oriented."
<thorwil> i see not a word that would associate dots with the community side
<thorwil> aside of that, the dot grid gives a technical feel and stands in contrast to our title font
<humphreybc> ah, sorry. I was under the impression that wide dots meant community. not sure where I got that from.
<godbyk> also, I don't want to program latex to print all those dots. ;-)
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> (though I'm hoping that inkscape can handle the translations and save me some effort)
<humphreybc> okay fine, fine, title page A it is
<humphreybc> now, logo. *deep breath*
<thorwil> humphreybc: well, Mark's post sucks regarding that point, because you can read it several times and still be unsure what is for what
<humphreybc> thorwil, do you want me to get confirmation of dots?
<thorwil> humphreybc: no. title page A is ready for use now
<humphreybc> Could you change the colour of the icons to Aubergine like title page b?
<thorwil> no
<thorwil> i found no way to balance aubergine icons with the wave of friends, without the later looking sexually frustrated
<humphreybc> sexually frustrated title page huh? that's a new one!
<godbyk> lol
<humphreybc> okay. I'm just trying to minimize brown.
<humphreybc> seeing as brown is now goneburger
<thorwil> humphreybc: the icons are no longer brown, but light orange
<humphreybc> oh, well that's okay then
<humphreybc> :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: see attachment to post regarding RTL
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> brb have to get pies
<godbyk> hey, thorwil, you don't happen to be a bash shell scripting expert by any chance, do you?
<thorwil> godbyk: no, so far i was happy with simple for loops
<godbyk> rats.
<humphreybc> back, haz pies
<thorwil> humphreybc: so you was like *deep breath*, logo
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> yes
<humphreybc> let's decide on a logo
<humphreybc> i don't like the star thing
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: what's wrong with the 'star' thing?
<humphreybc> it scares me
<godbyk> ?!
<humphreybc> when i see it, i think i'm going to be hit by a ninja's throwing star
<godbyk> The others look like all the pages are coming from a single place.  the 'star' one looks more like they're coming from all over.  I like the star one better.
<humphreybc> it's too edgy, sharp and cold... not welcoming or community or anything
<humphreybc> apart from the multiple sources thing
<thorwil> well, i could try something else
<humphreybc> thorwil, that would be good :)
<humphreybc> no offence or anything, but i just don't think it encapsulates what we're all about
<thorwil> godbyk: for warning/advanced, you prefer the road sign approach for both, right?
<godbyk> thorwil: I think so.. I think it was the second column I liked.
<godbyk> with the dark outlines.
<godbyk> (they don't have to be full black; it'll depend on how thick the outlines actually are.
<thorwil> http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/ump_icons.png?w=326&h=238
<godbyk> but I think the black will be good for printing.  I fear the yellow alone may be too light when printed in greyscale.
<godbyk> yeah, the second column.
<thorwil> ok
<humphreybc> thorwil
<humphreybc> "Hi Mark, quick question - wide-spaced dots stand for community, close-spaced dots stand for enterprise? Is that right?"
<humphreybc> "sabdfl: yes. think graph paper in the one case, and server rack cabinet grille in the other"
<thorwil> yeah right, graph paper for community
<humphreybc> sabdfl: if you could pass this on to the folks who are doing that work, i'd appreciate it
<humphreybc> sabdfl: the dot pattern in both reads as "developer orientation"
<humphreybc> sabdfl: the dots are small and widely spaced relative to their diameters
<humphreybc> humphreybc: We haven't "met" before either Mark - I'm Benjamin, leader of the manual project, you may have heard about it :)
<humphreybc> sabdfl: i have heard of it, it rocks, thank you :-)
<humphreybc> sabdfl: the outline pictograms also hint at developer orientation
<humphreybc> sabdfl: so both of these say "i'm aimed at technical people", which you might want to change
<humphreybc> humphreybc: both of the ones with the dots?
<humphreybc> sabdfl: yes
<humphreybc> sabdfl: the one which uses aubergine more heavily is saying "this is produced by a company", or "aimed at companies"
<humphreybc> sabdfl: it's using quite a light shade of aubergine, which signals "consumer focus"
<humphreybc> sabdfl: yes, i think the dotless one is best
<humphreybc> sabdfl: some suggestions
<humphreybc> sabdfl: try the warm grey for the pictograms
<humphreybc> sabdfl: rather than the odd orange/brown
<humphreybc> sabdfl: and maybe also for the nice wave-of-people motif
<humphreybc> sabdfl: looks fantastic!
<humphreybc> sabdfl: cheers
<thorwil> cool
<humphreybc> :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: and no fair, when i tried contacting him via irc, it took 10 hours for a reply that only said he was busy otherwise :}
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> cool.  so did we get the title page stuff settled then?
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> do want: http://www.trademe.co.nz/277005283
<titeuf_87> this actually work?
<humphreybc> absolutely no doubt about it in my mind that it works
<titeuf_87> good luck sleeping with that on your head though
<humphreybc> haha too true
<godbyk> whee! the parallelized build script works.
<godbyk> that'll save some time.
<humphreybc> haha yess!
<humphreybc> I did some cool stuff in my python lab today that I thought was pretty neat...
<godbyk> okay. I'm off to bed.
<humphreybc> kk, night godbyk!
<humphreybc> funny how i should be going to bed too
<humphreybc> what time is it there?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Updated build page: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
<godbyk> American English 'translation' is there at the top.
<humphreybc> awesome :)
<godbyk> you may have to update some links.. I'm not sure.
<godbyk> let me create a symlink.
<godbyk> that should fix it all
<humphreybc> is this stuff in the branch?
<godbyk> it's 5:14 a.m. here.
<humphreybc> i like it how your sleep patterns basically mean you're in the same timezone as me
<godbyk> symlinks created.
<godbyk> yeah, I'm a total night owl.
<humphreybc> sorry, what am I doing with symlinks?
<godbyk> I'll probably be awake for a bit longer.. just lying in bed reading or somethign.
<godbyk> humphreybc: nothing. I've taken care of it.
<godbyk> no worries.
<humphreybc> lol ok cool :)
<godbyk> IGNORE ME!
<godbyk> :)
<humphreybc> wilco
<humphreybc> go read your book
<humphreybc> i bet it's about something silly
<humphreybc> like frilly pink pillow covers
 * godbyk just realized that I doubt anyone in this room knows the reference, but he amuses himself nevertheless.
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGbPs5y3oz8
 * humphreybc looks at the link
<humphreybc> lol
 * humphreybc is still trying to decide whether to buy another 24" monitor
 * humphreybc just bought another 24" Dell LCD
<dutchie> evening folks
<godbyk> hey, dutchie .
<Daker> hi @all
<godbyk> Daker: dutchie is the guy who handles the translation stuff for the ubuntu manual. he may be able to help you with your pot file.
<thorwil> word
<Daker> godbyk oki
<Daker> dutchie !!!
<godbyk> hey, thorwil.
<dutchie> Daker: o/
<Daker> dutchie i don't know if i use https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website for handling the website
<dutchie> :( PHP
<dutchie> PHP makes me cry
<Daker> dutchie why ?
<dutchie> because it's horrible
<dutchie> but never mind that, did you have a translation-related question?
<thorwil> i'd like to make PHP cry
<Daker> I don't know if upload the file here lp ubuntu-manual-website or where
<Daker> HEEEEELLLLLLLPPPPPP
<Daker> :s
<godbyk> Daker: we may also want to hold off on the translations until we've edited the text.  I think the text that's there is just semi-boilerplate text that humpreybc put in.
<godbyk> brb. going to fix a sandwich.
<Daker> godbyk ok
<Daker> @all see you later
<manualbot`> Daker: Error: "all" is not a valid command.
<godbyk> back
<thorwil> godbyk: in graphics/, warning.pdf and advanced.pdf are generated or explicitly saved?
<godbyk> thorwil: right now they're explicitly saved.
<thorwil> godbyk: i have 2 SVGs ready. both with 64x64 px canvas
<thorwil> godbyk: should i just replace what's there with them and their PDF exports?
<godbyk> thorwil: sure!
<thorwil> godbyk: pushed. had a conflict to resolve (maintenance.moved). no clue what that was about
<thorwil> godbyk: SVG with colors, contains a red that could be used for link: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/t_w_%40freenet.de-20100318130523-o2k0cv6tfl1rf893/palette.svg-20100318121658-3ezpc5eiih67vu2p-1/palette.svg
<godbyk> thorwil: nice! I'll give it a shot.
<thorwil> godbyk: our traffic signs are neither all european or usa/nz/aus-ian, but i wanted to have different shapes. considered switching to european triangle with red frame and white fill, but that would lessen the likeness with the Humanity icon and looks harsher somehow
<godbyk> true
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX and titeuf_87 can you please check the todo list http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F I have put coments by the stuff i think has been done, If I am right can you strike though it.
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, what do you mean with check the user is online?
<titeuf_87> just that he can connect on the net?
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: yes just that he is on the internet
<Red_HamsterX> That's probably a good thing to test.
<ubuntujenkins> I know ground control does it
<titeuf_87> Should be easy enough to implement. When the user is not online show a warning when you start quickshot?
<ubuntujenkins> yes I think that would be the best way to do it.
<Red_HamsterX> Try pinging the server?
<Red_HamsterX> Or, actually...
<ubuntujenkins> I did some of the ui chnages to day I will finish it tonight/tomorrow
<ubuntujenkins> well ping may work
<Red_HamsterX> Sine the server will be necesary for determining what needs to be done, just fail it the screenshot list can't be retrieved.
<Red_HamsterX> Since*
<Red_HamsterX> necessary*
<Red_HamsterX> if*
<Red_HamsterX> I need to learn how to type.
<ubuntujenkins> It would be good if it was done at launch as there is no point the user going through every thing to find out that they can't do it becasue they are not online
<ubuntujenkins> also is it possible to change the label on the very first window when it launches in the quickshot user?
<ubuntujenkins> I know how to chnage labels
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-19
<godbyk> humphreybc: I just installed Lucid on my laptop.
<humphreybc> oh yeah?
<godbyk> I'm walking through the ubuntu-manual contributors instructions right now to test 'em.
<humphreybc> awesome
<godbyk> it's installing tex live right now.
<humphreybc> like the window buttons?
<godbyk> haven't really used 'em yet.
<godbyk> (I live in terminals, mostly, and generally use the keyboard for everything.)
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> I'll let you know as I use it a bit more, though.
<humphreybc> righto
<godbyk> right now I'm more frustrated because my dot files aren't there. :)
<godbyk> (downloading them from my svn repository as we speak)
 * godbyk really should move his font collection out of his dotfiles repository.
<godbyk> they're taking forever to download.
<godbyk> the quickshot guys have been jamming today!
<humphreybc> they have?
<humphreybc> is progress being made?!
<humphreybc> I need to talk with Red_HamsterX and ubuntujenkins so they can tell me what the new way of doing stuff is, then i can update the quickshot wiki
<humphreybc> mattgriffin: ping
<jaminday> godbyk: you around?
<godbyk> jaminday: yep
<cjohnston> humphreybc: im working on a blog post for ou
<jaminday> how do i do an in-text reference to a section or subsection? ie equivalent of \chaplink command
<humphreybc> cjohnston: oh gnarly, sorry i haven't got around to doing it yet - but if you write one that would be awesome, and i'll post it for ya :)
<godbyk> jaminday: \seclink
<humphreybc> good timing too, Joey is sick so we're lacking on posts at the moment
<jaminday> ah ok. and do i label the section with \label{sec:blahblah} ??
<godbyk> jaminday: yep! exactly right.
<jaminday> godbyk: great, thanks!
<godbyk> \section{My section}\label{sec:my-section}   ...    See \seclink{sec:my-section} for more info.
<cjohnston> humphreybc: http://chrisjohnston.org/2010/no-more-battery-status-tooltip-in-lucid
<jaminday> fantastic
<humphreybc> cjohnston: oh I thought you were writing up a post about the classroom/classbot and such?
<cjohnston> nope
<cjohnston> a gripe of mine that i want on there
<cjohnston> lol
<humphreybc> lol
<cjohnston> ill write this one for you if you like
<humphreybc> it might not be substantial enough for an entire post, but i'll see what I can do :P
<cjohnston> ok
<cjohnston> ill be looking to see what happens
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> I might talk to Joey about doing something like "Cool dude of the week"
<humphreybc> where we can have a post that features this particular person etc
<cjohnston> k
<humphreybc> so I'll talk to Joey about it and then if he likes the idea you can be this weeks' "Cool dude" or whatever we end up calling it :P
<cjohnston> okie
<humphreybc> hey chris, I saw your bug entry and message to the ayatana team. I don't think they're going to be changing it back any time soon as the whole "no rollover" thing is a big regression in the new indicator-applet
<doctormo> humphreybc: Do you have any screenshots of compiz in all it's glory?
<doctormo> humphreybc: I'm on a bit of tight deadline and I can't find any
<humphreybc> doctormo: uhm... not really. It's a bit hard to screenshot compiz, but what are you after specifically?
<doctormo> http://jano-ab.deviantart.com/art/desktop-8-10-09-146090758
<doctormo> something like that but licensed in a friendly way
<humphreybc> nope I don't have any lying around, and I don't use desktop wall or anything that fancy
<humphreybc> what do you need them for?
<humphreybc> desktop cube*
<doctormo> http://doctormo.deviantart.com/art/DRAFT-Ubuntu-AnimeBos-Flyer-2-156028757
<doctormo> leftyfb is helping me, I wonder why I didn't think of him first
<humphreybc> must be in a hurry heh
<jaminday> humphreybc: heya, how you doin? Have you ever used the 'Test memory' option on the live cd?
<jaminday> godbyk: btw -- great idea to use a form for errata found in the manual.
<jaminday> rather than reporting bugs to LP
<godbyk> jaminday: yeah, I think it'll simplify things for our readers quite a bit.
<jaminday> most definitely
<godbyk> 1. doesn't require a launchpad account
<godbyk> 2. the 'bug report' is designed specifically for our manual, so the fields/questions are more relevant.
<godbyk> in general, I think it'll be a better experience.
<jaminday> i agree. I had a quick look at it and couldn't immediately think of anything needing to be added
<jaminday> i guess as reports start coming in we will work out whether another field is needed etc
<jaminday> Is the plan to have a link on ubuntu-manual.org ?
<godbyk> jaminday: I'm sure we'll find the bugs in our form when people start using it. :)
<godbyk> yeah, I'm going to put it on ubuntu-manual.org soon.
<jaminday> great
<godbyk> I'd like to get daker's site moved over to ubuntu-manual.org
<jaminday> daker's site?
<godbyk> and them take the current countdown page and integrate the countdown and contact stuff into a page on daker's site (until we're ready to go live with the rest of it)
<godbyk> jaminday: yeah, see http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/daker/
<jaminday> ah yeah nice
<jaminday> yeah consolidating the two would be good
<godbyk> daker's site is translatable, too, which will be nice.
<Red_HamsterX> Quickshot update: zipfile exports, Bazaar-querying, error-reporting, and other refinements now stable and documented in the EtherPad. (The interfaces are still primitive, but they're workable to the point that they should save a lot of time)
<humphreybc> jaminday: yeah i have
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: awesome!
<humphreybc> we probably won't start taking translated screenshots till beta2, so you've got another 3 weeks or so to keep playing with it
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: pong
<humphreybc> hey matt
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: hey
<humphreybc> just wondering what's happening with the stuff you're writing for the manual?
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: finishing up https://code.launchpad.net/~mattgriffin/ubuntu-manual/rbox-documentation tomorrow. then i'll write the content for Ubuntu One (mostly going to re-use stuff that we've already written for other places)
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> our content freeze is sunday, complete writing freeze is on the 31st
<humphreybc> if it's not in the manual by then, it won't be in it at all - we have to have a strict freeze on everything to allow translations to catch up
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: cool.
<humphreybc> thanks :)
<mattgriffin> np
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: sorry for the delay
<humphreybc> no worries
<humphreybc> as long as you get it in in the next few days everything should be okay
<humphreybc> otherwise the world might implode O.o
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: what about screenshots?
<humphreybc> mattgriffin: not sure. we're a bit screwed because Canonical have decided to leave the buttons on the left through beta1
<humphreybc> we can't take any shots until we know for sure what side the window controls will be on for final
<humphreybc> it's a pain in the butt
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: heh... those crazy designers can't make up their minds
<humphreybc> yeah, so much for User Interface freeze...
<mattgriffin> :)
<humphreybc> I'm not entirely sure why we have them if Canonical don't stick to them themselves
<humphreybc> oh yeah, meeting event on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=103894842975687
<humphreybc> RSVP!
<jaminday> humphreybc: you still here?
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I am going to send an e-mail around reminding people to make sure they add screenshots by the 21st. I plan to do all the american english ones as exaples to compare against
<nisshh> hey, anyone who uses vim (the text editor) i just found a package called vim-latexsuite in the lucid repos, ill try it out and let you guys know how it goes.
<nisshh> http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=475
<nisshh> lets you compile a latex file from within vim apparently
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87 and Red_HamsterX does the line self.screenshottreeview = get("screenshottreeview") a window for the user to check the screenshot is ok? or is it something else?
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, the screenshottreeview is in the screenshotinfo window, it displays the list of screenshots
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, we don't have a window that is diplayed after the screenshot is taken to preview it before uploading yet I think
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks I am adding in a window for the user to comapre the screenshot they have just taken with a sample screenshot, hopefully this will reduce errors
<titeuf_87> where will you get that sample screenshot from?
<ubuntujenkins> I will take them all and check them with the authors of the section, we might include them with the program they will be done in english us
<ubuntujenkins> that was my thinking
<ubuntujenkins> we need some for the people who are checking and adding to bzr to compare against any way
<titeuf_87> sounds good to me
<titeuf_87> although be careful as you work on a small resolution, you can't just show the two screenshots next to each other
<ubuntujenkins> I have added scroll able windows but i just thought of tabs
<titeuf_87> hmm, this will immediately solve the problem too of having to need a list of screenshots to take
<ubuntujenkins> well the list means the user can choose what to take, the instalation ones are going to be much harder than the one of firefox say
<ubuntujenkins> it does mean a description might not be so nessicary
<titeuf_87> installation screenshots won't be able to be taken with quickshot really
<ubuntujenkins> they can be boot a live cd install quickshot then run the installer, the user will somehow have to get them on the server otherwise
<humphreybc> mattgriffin: is this your doing? http://isthemusicstorereadyyet.com/
<humphreybc> :P
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: nah. that's stuart langridge's work
<humphreybc> haha actually?
 * ubuntujenkins wants the music store to hurry up
<humphreybc> i just did possibly the shortest post ever about it
<humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/is-music-store-ready-yet.html
<mattgriffin> ubuntujenkins: me too :) ... but i guess i have something to do with that
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: If you want it to hurry up, Matt is the guy to sweet talk :)
<ubuntujenkins> I just want to have fun and seven digitals prices are good on most songs
<mattgriffin> :)
<humphreybc> mattgriffin: Hear that Matt? He just wants to have FUN. And you're ruining that Matt, you're ruining Luke's fun by not releasing it already. How does it feel to ruin someone's fun? Not nice, huh. Not nice Matt, no it's not nice at all.
<humphreybc> :P
<mattgriffin> sorry :(
 * humphreybc in the style of the complaint letter sent to Richard Branson: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/4344890/Virgin-the-worlds-best-passenger-complaint-letter.html
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, I didn't know you could install stuff while running from the livecd, that solves that problem too then :)
<ubuntujenkins> I will upload the new stuff this afternoon so that it can be hooked into the upload sequence when you have time, also are you able to make the meeting on sunday at 8.00 utc. second item is screenshots
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, I'll try, if I'm not around it means I couldn't get out of my bed. Remind me on Saturday though about it
<humphreybc> titeuf_87: what time do you have to get up to make the meeting?
<titeuf_87> 9am, so it shouldn't be a problem. I just have to discipline myself and get in bed on time Saturdaynight
<humphreybc> hey i have to get up at 9am too
<humphreybc> what timezone are you in?
<humphreybc> well, meeting starts at 9am
<titeuf_87> I'm at UTC+1
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> wouldn't that be 9pm that you have to get up?
<humphreybc> I'm at UTC +13 and the meeting is at 9am for me, on Sunday.
<titeuf_87> meeting is at 8am UTC on Sunday right?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> 8pm UTC on Saturday
<humphreybc> 2000 UTC, Saturday 20th 2010
<titeuf_87> ooh, yeah, I can make that without any problem
<humphreybc> neat
<daker> hi
<nisshh> hey
<ubuntujenkins> hello daker
<daker> some new problems :s
<nisshh> yep?
<ubuntujenkins> with what?
<daker> daker@daker-laptop:~/ubuntu-manual$ bzr push
<daker> bzr: ERROR: No push location known or specified.
<ubuntujenkins> do bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual
<nisshh> +1
<nisshh> you have nothing in your bzr history for that branch
<ubuntujenkins> you have to specifiy where you want to push to
<daker> :)
<nisshh> ok now?
<daker> that's work now
<nisshh> cool nice one
<nisshh> how are you guys going with your parts of the manual?
<nisshh> nice work on the website btw daker
<ubuntujenkins> I have gwibber to finish tonight and I am going some quickshot ui stuff
<nisshh> cool
<daker> nisshh, tanks u
<ubuntujenkins> does the main login screen look different in different languages?
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: i dont think so, just the language itself is different
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: thats what i was thinking if you haven't clicked the user is there any thing visable that is different
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: I am looking at making a coustom ubuntu disk with quickshot as user instead of the dafault ubuntu
<titeuf_87> oo, that sounds interesting
<titeuf_87> any luck with it?
<ubuntujenkins> I think it will be possible and I will try and add quickshot the program to it
<titeuf_87> after dinner I'm going to work more on quickshot, fix the few issues we talked about yesterday and earlier
<ubuntujenkins> cool that sounds good
<ubuntujenkins> I have uploaded the ui chnages
<titeuf_87> you already made the screenshot preview right?
<ubuntujenkins> I havn't done the samples but i have done the window
<titeuf_87> sweet :)
<titeuf_87> For taking screenshots, should there be a different screenshot taken for English and American English?
<titeuf_87> I guess that in most of the cases they'll be the same.
<sebsebseb> Hi
<godbyk> Hey, sebsebseb.  How goes it?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: ok, you?
<godbyk> not too bad.
<Daker> back :)
<Daker> godbyk i think we should add screenshots in the website
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: in response to your question about 5 hours ago between the differences in english screen shots I am un sure if there are any. sorry for the late reply but i screwed up my install trying to move partitions and then got distracted before i could fix it
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, that's what I thought, and it'll be the same between nl_NL and nl_BE for Dutch. Not sure about other languages though
<ubuntujenkins> well we have two variations of french I am unsure about those. I know for arabic it doesn't matter which language of arabic they are taken in I contacted the head of arbic on launchapd
<titeuf_87> Belgian and French French are similar enough too that it won't give a problem with screenshots
<ubuntujenkins> cool we do have a few screenshots that might be hard, is it possible to set it to capture a certain area?
<ubuntujenkins> I think three of the screenshots are the same for all languages
<titeuf_87> a certain area of the screen? Or just part of the window?
<ubuntujenkins> certain area of the screen top right for the networking stuff
<titeuf_87> I think it's possible in code, just not interface wise
<ubuntujenkins> cool we will have to see
<titeuf_87> I think for that it would be easiest if we take a full screenshot and let the user "draw" what part they want to keep
<ubuntujenkins> will we not end up with those screenshot being odd sizes?
<titeuf_87> we have that problem now too: whenever the user opens a program to take a screenshot of it, if it's not maximized they will all have different sizes.
<ubuntujenkins> we will just have to ask for it to be maximised in the description i guess, this is hard
<titeuf_87> and if we present a sample screenshot and the user crops what they need from a full screen screenshot, they will be more or less the same size
<titeuf_87> will it give problems if all the screenshots aren't pixel-perfect the same size?
<ubuntujenkins> but how will the user upload it manualy? as they should need the program to do it. well if they are the same it makes the manual easier to arange but otherwise no
<ubuntujenkins> brb just rebooting
<godbyk> titeuf_87: if the resolutions are consistent, and everyone's using a fresh install, it'd be easiest if quickshot knew what area of the screen should be captured instead of having the user draw the box.  That way, it's the same area regardless of the language.
<godbyk> can we programmatically maximize, resize, or move a window around?
<ubuntujenkins> back
<titeuf_87> godbyk, right, I didn't think about the fact that it'll all look similar cause it runs under a new/fresh user all under the same resolution
<titeuf_87> and that should be possible, not sure how yet but I'm sure it is
<godbyk> I know we may not have time to get it all coded up for this first edition of the manual, but in the end, it'd be awesome of quickshot were almost entirely scripted: after the initial setup, you push a button and walk away for a while and let quickshot start programs and move windows about and take whatever screenshots it likes and upload them when it's done.
<titeuf_87> that'll be great for the next version :)
<ubuntujenkins> That would be amazing
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, you wanted to add the sample screenshots in quickshot itself right?
<ubuntujenkins> that was my thought I started them today but forgot to change the reolution
<titeuf_87> if we go this route, we could add in the screenshot info in quickshot itself too instead of storing that server side. And only use the server to upload screenshots and know which ones have been made already
<ubuntujenkins> I thought that was the pervious thought?
 * ubuntujenkins thinks its geeky when you read shh as "ssh" on facebook
<ubuntujenkins> *previous
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, I'm not sure anymore, asking cause right now the server does give out a list of screenshot that needs to be taken
<ubuntujenkins> wow does it show in quickshot if we keep the descriptions on the server it does mean its easyier to change them if needed also other people wanting to use the program will have to remove/adjust that code
<titeuf_87> easier to change when we keep it server side?
<ubuntujenkins> well the person owning the server can change it and it will be changed in every users version of quickshot otherwise you have to rely on that they keep it uptodate
<titeuf_87> and keep the sample screenshots on there too instead of bundling them with quickshot?
<ubuntujenkins> yep I suppose that makes more sense. I may have just changed my mind in about 25 line :-)
<ubuntujenkins> and only pull the one the user is comapring against
<titeuf_87> yeah, when the user selects a screenshot to take it should retrieve some information from the server about it: a sample screenshot to compare to and some extra info like the app to run (if any), screen coordinates to grab and maybe a short description text
<ubuntujenkins> sounds right to me
<ubuntujenkins> I have realized that the meeting is on saturday and not sunday as normal and I am unfortunaley not able to make it. I have let humphreybc know
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, if you're listening, would this be a lot of work to add?
<dutchie> do we still need the form feedback thing, or is it all sorted (godbyk)?
<titeuf_87> and ubuntujenkins, not sure if you checked the latest version, but I've added in support for previewing of screenshots
<ubuntujenkins> I think the more we discuss quickshot the more complex it gets, can we make the first screen skip to a "congratulations screen" when in the quickshot user
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: doing pull now
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-20
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: that rules
<ubuntujenkins> we are making good progress
<ubuntujenkins> Really like seeing the screenshot list
<titeuf_87> right now the loading of the screenshot list is too slow as it queries bzr every time to see which screenshots are final
<titeuf_87> this should be fixed too, cause it'll be annoying to take a lot of screenshots if you always have to wait that long
<ubuntujenkins> mmm
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, no, it wouldn't be hard at all. You'd just need to account for the possibility of no screensho exsting.
<Red_HamsterX> screenshot*
<ubuntujenkins> hello Red_HamsterX
<Red_HamsterX> I could probably even give you a gdk Pixbuf to render directly to a Drawable, to avoid having to add another temporary file.
<Red_HamsterX> Hi, ubuntujenkins.
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, that would be awesome :)
<titeuf_87> that and a dictionary of extra info where you could store the program to run, the coordinates to grab from the screen for full screen screenshots, a small descriptions, etc...
<titeuf_87> putting that in a dictionary should make it easy to add extra information should we need it later
<Red_HamsterX> Adding a dictionary of information would be simple, too.
<titeuf_87> sweet!
<ubuntujenkins> thats good!
<Red_HamsterX> get_info({'language': 'en', 'name': 'gedit-hello'}) -> raw text or text intelligently parsed/structured in some way
<Red_HamsterX> Depending on what you need.
<Red_HamsterX> So why is there concern about windows being of the wrong size?
<Red_HamsterX> The new Quickshot user should have default everything.
<Red_HamsterX> And we could just nuke all .* files in their home directory (after presenting a prompt) if not...
<Red_HamsterX> To force everything back to its default state.
<ubuntujenkins> I would hope that that will not be needed
<ubuntujenkins> good idea though
<titeuf_87> when a new user is made, and you launch an app as that user, can you always be sure the window will be the same size?
<godbyk> I'm back now. Lemme read the backlog real quick.
<Red_HamsterX> The application won't have any local data to read from, so it'll have to use system/hardcoded defaults.
<godbyk> dutchie: So far everyone seems happy with the feedback form I emailed around.
<godbyk> It's tied into a google docs spreadsheet, too, so it's pretty easy to access the data (and can be shared with anyone)
<Red_HamsterX> The only thing that should be about to mess that up is a language issue.
<Red_HamsterX> Like text that forces a size change.
<Red_HamsterX> But there's nothing we could do about that.
<ubuntujenkins> I haven't noticed a problem with that yet
<titeuf_87> for applications we can run them maximized so that won't be an issue as they'll all be taken at the same screen resolution
<Red_HamsterX> True, but that'll come at the cost of clarity.
<godbyk> dutchie: have you seen the feedback form and the spreadsheet? what'd you think of it?
<Red_HamsterX> PDFs can be resized on a monitor, but printed copies are pretty much stuck.
<dutchie> godbyk: seems fine
<dutchie> just wanted to check that I didn't have to write an HTML form :)
<ubuntujenkins> the larger the screenshots appear in the manual the better
<ubuntujenkins> for clarity, may be not for fiel size
<godbyk> In the manual, all of the screenshots will be scaled by the same factor.
<ubuntujenkins> that makes sense, the one that appears the largest being the main desktop one
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> Basically, I take the full-desktop screenshot and scale it to fit the page.  Then calculate the scaling factor I used to make it fit and scale all the other screenshots by that same amount.
<ubuntujenkins> nice
<Red_HamsterX> Oh. In that case, my concern is moot.
<titeuf_87> sorry, I kind of zoned away as I'm getting really tired. This means that the apps can be maximized when we take the screenshots right and it'll look fine in the manual?
<Red_HamsterX> Yes.
<Red_HamsterX> I figured smaller images would have more room.
<Red_HamsterX> I was wrong.
<ubuntujenkins> Have we a naming code?
<titeuf_87> ok, I'll look if we can automatically maximize apps then tomorrow
<ubuntujenkins> alt+f10 is the keyboard shotcut
<titeuf_87> alright, bed time for me. Night all
<ubuntujenkins> night titeuf_87
<Red_HamsterX> Metacity (and Compiz) support freedesktop.org hints. We should be able to just send messages to the active window, talling it to zoom.
<Red_HamsterX> telling*
<ubuntujenkins> sorry i don't get what you mean
<Red_HamsterX> http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gdkwindow.html#method-gdkwindow--maximize
<Red_HamsterX> The code that captures the active window has to get a reference to a gdk.Window instance.
<Red_HamsterX> By invoking this function on the object (I can refactor to make that easy), we can send a zoom hint to the window, telling the WM to maximize it.
<ubuntujenkins> the only thing is that we may not want to maximise
<ubuntujenkins> some windows
<Red_HamsterX> (zoom and iconify being names for maximize and minimize in the pre-Microsoft world)
<Red_HamsterX> Which is fine.
<Red_HamsterX> It could be a flag in the screencap dictionary entry.
<ubuntujenkins> cool this is getting very indepth, whilst i remember the meeting is on saturday  I may have said sunday perviously
<ubuntujenkins> I can't make it I thought it was on saturday Ihave told ben i will not be there
<Red_HamsterX> You've now confused me.
<Red_HamsterX> Which day is it?
<ubuntujenkins> Its on saturday
<ubuntujenkins> 8pm utc
<ubuntujenkins> I THOUGHT IT was sunday
<ubuntujenkins> its getting late trying to finish writing before the freeze
<Red_HamsterX> Focus on that, then.
<ubuntujenkins> I only have one littlee bit to go
<ubuntujenkins> right done, night all o/
 * humphreybc likes it how the title page repeats the title twice
<humphreybc> GETTING STARTED WITH UBUNTU 10.04 GETTING STARTED WITH UBUNTU 10.04 DAMNIT
<godbyk> humphreybc: lol.. yeah, I wanted to make sure the title wrapping was working okay.
<godbyk> haven't got back to working on the cover page yet. :)
<humphreybc> godbyk, that's all good
<godbyk> humphreybc: did you see the buzz that Bryan posted to the mailing list?
<jaminday> Hey godbyk, I just read Bryan's email then and the articles.
<godbyk> hey, jaminday. kind of nice mentions, no?
<humphreybc> godbyk, yeah i did
<humphreybc> they're awesome!
<humphreybc> I forwarded it to Jono
<jaminday> yeah - we made it to no. 1 most liked feature in one of them!
<humphreybc> see, we ARE an important project :)
<jaminday> hehe -- no pressure or anything though...
<humphreybc> there's always pressure
<godbyk> "Sexy? No."  Damn.. gonna have to sex up the manual, I guess. :-/
<humphreybc> godbyk I saw that and laughed!!
<jaminday> You want a photo of me on the cover?
<humphreybc> we have to make it sexier
<humphreybc> jaminday: LOL
<godbyk> time to make more interesting use of the \screenshot command?  ;-)
<humphreybc> hahaha
<jaminday> hehe
<godbyk> jaminday: somehow I think thorwil would veto that one! :)
<jaminday> yeah, i guess we do actually want people to read this thing don't we!
<jaminday> humphreybc: how final is the writing freeze?
<humphreybc> jaminday: you know when you die, and you can't do anything after that?
<humphreybc> it's that final
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> fair enough
<godbyk> ...unless we pull a Canonical.  ;-)
<godbyk> In which case all bets are off and I may make a last-minute decision to typeset the manual in mirror-image.
<godbyk> Just to mix things up a bit.
<jaminday> lol
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> "Pull a Canonical" -- to break a freeze.
<humphreybc> I like it
<jaminday> humphreybc: i was thinking earlier that we really need some kind of graphical depiction of the file system structure in Ubuntu - and how it differs to the file system structure in windows
<jaminday> it was one of the things i found most confusing when i started - ie where is my c drive? etc
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> that's a fantastic idea
<humphreybc> I wonder if thorwil could whip up a nice tree structure image
<godbyk> if you give him specs on what you want it to show.
<jaminday> and how when you mount a disk it doesn't become e drive or f drive, it joins into the existing directort structure sort of
<godbyk> (not necessarily *how* to show it, but what info you want to get across)
<humphreybc> true. we also need to add more links to community docs
<humphreybc> at the moment we have hardly any
<humphreybc> stuff that we can't cover we need to link to the online/wiki docs
<godbyk> at the meeting tomorrow we should also ask those who aren't busy writing to start reading through the manual.
<humphreybc> indeed
<godbyk> just to see if there are major gaps or other big issues we need to address ASAP.
<jaminday> yeah - i think there will be a lot of stuff needing to be held over till next release, so for now we need to flesh out what we can and refer the reader elsewhere for the rest
<jaminday> ie community docs
<godbyk> I know I need to set aside some time to read through it so I can make a fresh set of notes on design-related stuff I need to fix or address.
<godbyk> I agree.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> how's the form coming along for omgubuntu thing?
<godbyk> When do you want to do the omgubuntu thing?
<humphreybc> Monday
<godbyk> And you tell me---what do you think of it? Anything missing or need to be changed?
<humphreybc> nope, I think it's good
<humphreybc> you've covered pretty much everything quite nicely and it's fairly straight forward. I don't see any problems with it. What's the back-end look like?
<godbyk> 'kay. I'll work on getting that moved over to the site then.
<godbyk> The backend?
<humphreybc> ie, the spreadsheet
<humphreybc> what we see when we go to analyze all the form entries
<godbyk> oh, it's shared.  click through and see.
<humphreybc> how easy is it for us to triage?
<humphreybc> link?
<godbyk> in the email I sent.
<godbyk> (I'm digging for it...)
<humphreybc> kk :)
<humphreybc> far out it's 5pm
<humphreybc> i start work in like an hour
<godbyk> humphreybc: http://spreadsheets.google.com/a/ubuntu-manual.org/ccc?key=0AiussLy2MfjjdHRrYlR0Q0RMRXRTaXJuR2w0QjFUcXc&hl=en
<godbyk> I might add a field to ask for their email address (optional) so we can talk to them to get more details if necessary.
<humphreybc> that's a good idea
<humphreybc> that is awesome
<humphreybc> good work Kevin!
<godbyk> I just added the optional email address field.  Does the help text look okay?
<jaminday> By help text do you mean the text on the actual form -- "You can find the revision number on the copyright page at the front of the manual"? If so looks fine to me.
<godbyk> yeah.  how about the text for the email address?
<jaminday> yep it looks fine to me
<godbyk> 'kay.
<jaminday> godbyk: is there any way to make the section and subsection headings more distinct from each other?
<godbyk> jaminday: Probably.
<godbyk> Ideas?
<jaminday> hmm .. hang on a tick
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> okay I have to head off, i'll see you tomorrow in the meeting
<godbyk> No rush. I'm working on coding up the Bengali calendar at the moment. :)
<godbyk> See ya, humphreybc.
<humphreybc> oh godbyk, where are you going to put the form?
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual.org/bugs
<nisshh> hey all
<humphreybc> ?
<jaminday> humphreybc: see ya
<godbyk> humphreybc: probably, but don't post anything until I let you know it's up and running.
<jaminday> nisshh: hello
<humphreybc> godbyk oh no I'm not, but I just wanted to make sure you stick it in the right place :P
<nisshh> lucid beta1 broke my gnome-panel dammit
<humphreybc>  /bugs is better than /errata
<godbyk> heh, noted.
<humphreybc> nisshh: ha! you should follow @ubuntustatus on twitter
<humphreybc> then you'll know about the problems and not upgrade those packages till their fixed :P
<nisshh> humphreybc: dont use twitter
<humphreybc> that sucks
<humphreybc> kk, see ya all
<humphreybc> meeting tomorrow, don't forget!
<nisshh> nah its cool i just had to specify gnome-panel in startup apps
<humphreybc> and jaminday, don't sleep in!
<nisshh> hehe
<jaminday> hehe i won't!
<nisshh> ill be there
<jaminday> or will i ... mwahahaha
<nisshh> meh
<jaminday> godbyk: see what i mean RE headings : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/716997/headings.png
<jaminday> to me they all look pretty much the same
<godbyk> yeah, the original typeface the doc was designed for looked a bit more distinguished at different font sizes.  the current font doesn't so much.
<godbyk> I'll play with the spacing and font size stuff a bit.
<jaminday> ah ok. \subsub is easiest to distinguish but the other two are harder
<godbyk> I may have to kill the bold on the headings, too, since the font doesn't have bold characters for all the languages we're using it for.
<godbyk> (so greek, for instance looks weird, because the latin-like letters are bold and the greek letters aren't.)
<jaminday> hmmm... what about going back to coloured headings?
<jaminday> or was that decided against
<godbyk> I think we dropped the colored headings because the color didn't add any information and didn't serve any real purpose.
<jaminday> godbyk: The other thing (and I don't know if this is fixable or not) is that screenshots aren't sticking to where they are placed in the text
<godbyk> jaminday: right. they're not intended to.
<jaminday> ah righto
<godbyk> it's a tricky concept to get used to and probably one of the more difficult ones for newcomers to latex.
<godbyk> most people are accustomed to dropping in a graphic and it stays right there. if there's no enough space on the page, it gets bumped to the next page and the remainder of the first page is just blank.
<godbyk> unfortunately, that makes for bad-looking books.
<godbyk> latex knows this.
<jaminday> yeah i see your point
<godbyk> so it has an algorithm for placing floats so that pages are always full.
<godbyk> generally it does an okay job of it.
<godbyk> but sometimes it just sucks at it and you have to slap it around a bit to get it to do the sensible thing. :)
<jaminday> hehe
<godbyk> that slapping around will be one of the very last things we do before publishing the final PDF.
<jaminday> right
<jaminday> i've never slapped a line of code before
<jaminday> :P
<godbyk> it's an enlightening experience, let me tell ya! :)
 * jaminday tries to slap his \subsection into place
 * godbyk wonders if it worked
<jaminday> nope, but now i have a sore hand. Obviously i am yet to master the art.
<jaminday> Well I'm off to take a break and rest my brain for a bit.
<godbyk> jaminday: 'kay.  see ya!
<nisshh> yay, my broken desktop is fixed
<jaminday> humphreybc: how was work
<humphreybc> not bad, shitload of drunk students around though
<humphreybc> big keg street party today on Hyde Street
<jaminday> you work in a bar?
<humphreybc> the theme was superheroes, so if you can imagine a few hundred drunk students wearing their interpretations of "superhero" costuments.... ie, mankinis
<humphreybc> nah, I work in a video store in the middle of a heap of bars and fast food places
<humphreybc> mcdonalds next door had people queing up all the way out the door for the entire duration of my shift haha
<humphreybc> dunedin becomes a bit of a warzone on saturday nights... fast food staff vs. drunk and hungry students
<jaminday> hehe nice. Maybe you could have taken some mankini photos for the manual to help sex it up a bit.
<humphreybc> i've already been working on sexing it up
<humphreybc> have a look at the prologue...
<jaminday> haha!!
<humphreybc> ;)
<jaminday> that's hilarious
<jaminday> i'm sensing a bit of a megan fox theme in your artwork...
<humphreybc> so howcome you're not gigging or getting drunk or both?
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> I love Megan Fox and Elisha Cuthbert
<humphreybc> they make up the majority of my Wallpapers folder, which changes wallpaper every 10 minutes
<humphreybc> When I screenshot stuff I have to watch that I don't have some naughty background :P
<jaminday> no gigs this weekend
<jaminday> haha
 * humphreybc tries to keep it mostly PG though as he's often in public places with his laptop
<jaminday> yeah probably wouldn't be ideal especially for an omg! post
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> omg! look at his background!
<jaminday> hehe
<humphreybc> so no gigs, how about getting drunk? it *is* Saturday night after all
<humphreybc> :P
<jaminday> nah i'm having a quiet weekend a) because i've been having crazy busy weeks and b) because there is so much work still needing to be done on the manual
<humphreybc> good man
<humphreybc> I approve
<humphreybc> I've been considering pulling an all nighter till the meeting tomorrow
<humphreybc> but then realized I could just pull an all-dayer tomorrow..
<jaminday> wow that's dedication
<humphreybc> lol
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> yeah i really want to make some headway with ch 2 tonight
<jaminday> basically culling and reshuffling
<humphreybc> we need to start reading stuff in depth and working out a) what we are missing that's urgent, b) what sections are so badly written that they're not able to be rescued in time so they get cut and also c) where we can stick links to the community docs
<humphreybc> anything we can't cover ourselves in enough depth needs to have a reference to the community wiki docs
<jaminday> yeah i agree
<jaminday> ive been pretty ruthless with it lately
<humphreybc> so next week this will be one of the key focuses
<jaminday> chopping out big chunks, rewriting sections
<jaminday> it's just so time consuming
<humphreybc> ruthless is good. I'd much rather have a smaller amount of quality stuff than a large amount of crap
<jaminday> exactly
<humphreybc> we won't get as much flaming for missing out stuff as we will if we produce a pile of junk
<jaminday> i spent about 3 hrs this morning on ch 2 and when i looked at the end result of my work it was one page long in total.
<humphreybc> overall, I'm quite pleased with the writing and the effort the authors have put in - what we are lacking however is consistency
<jaminday> crazy!
<humphreybc> there's shit all consistency across chapters, be it everything from tone to word choice to some people using tonnes of formatting and others using nil
<humphreybc> (and I'm one of these people!)
<jaminday> yep totally agree (me too)
<humphreybc> so we need to go through, maybe three or four of us, and make sure we clean everything up
<humphreybc> so each chapter has similar style, tone, word choice, margin note frequency, formatting etc
<jaminday> agreed
<humphreybc> it needs to look like it's written by one person
<humphreybc> even if we don't get it perfect this time, I'm sure everyone will be understanding
<humphreybc> hell we haven't even had a full cycle to do this, we've only had 4 months... and had to start everything from scratch
<jaminday> yep. Given another six months our next release will be 100 times better
<humphreybc> totally
<jaminday> Is it worth putting a disclaimer near the start or something?
<humphreybc> and I think we should keep the errata form available for people to submit stuff even after release
<humphreybc> I might add in a sentence in the introduction
<jaminday> Like a short paragraph saying that this manual will be added to and improved for each release or something
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> i'll add that into the "Welcome" section of the prologue tomorrow
<humphreybc> remind me :)
<jaminday> You need to add a short sentence into the prologue tomorrow.
<jaminday> :P
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> also it sounds like Quickshot might be usable very shortly
<jaminday> fantastic
<humphreybc> that's the good news
<humphreybc> bad news is that Mark has decided to keep the window buttons on the left through beta1, but hasn't said where they'll be for final release
<jaminday> hmm, that makes it hard for us
<humphreybc> which means: a) we can wait till the very last minute to try and get as many screenshots as we can using Quickshot, or b) we can start screenshotting now and guess which side the buttons will be on for final... 50/50 change.
<humphreybc> chance*
<humphreybc> so that's something we'll have to discuss tomorrow
<jaminday> yep.
<jaminday> is the notification area in mac osx really called "menu extras" ?
<humphreybc> I just talked to Mark
<humphreybc> "yes, i think it's likely they stay there"
<jaminday> about the buttons?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> sabdfl: i think they are in the correct position now, on the left
<humphreybc> abdfl: but we need to gather feedback based on beta1
<humphreybc> We'll raise this in the meeting tomorrow
<humphreybc> but I say we start screenshots after the writing freeze with the buttons on the left
<humphreybc> That will give the Quickshot guys one more week to get something usable
<jaminday> yeah - its probably our safest bet
<humphreybc> We will miss the global jam, but that's okay
<humphreybc> that gives us 29 days to get 2000 screenshots in 50 languages.
<humphreybc> that's 68 screenshots a day.
<humphreybc> We can't afford to push it any later than starting on the 1st April.
<humphreybc> 68 a day will be a big ask
<humphreybc> but I think we can do it.
<humphreybc> If we do get all the screenshots, and we get all the translations complete, and the buttons stay on the left so our screenshots are correct, we'll be possibly the most awesome project ever
<jaminday> hehe. I'm still worried about getting content down.
<humphreybc> we'll make it :)
<jaminday> I'll rest easy after next weekend.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> once the writing freeze is done, it's the translators time to shine
<humphreybc> then we can move all of our resources into screenshotting... fun
<jaminday> yep, i think i'll take that opportunity to sleep until lucid release
<jaminday> hehe
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> you'd be so lucky :P
<jaminday> yeah i don't think i'll get off that easy somehow
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: Hear that? You've got until March 31st to make Quickshot usable for hundreds of people :)
<jaminday> You know it's funny, i'm pretty used to the buttons on the left already after a couple of days.
<humphreybc> heh
 * humphreybc might try them on the left...
<jaminday> Yeah i'm still on karmic but moved them over to see what it's like
<humphreybc> okay no scratch that, it doesn't work with my nice theme
<humphreybc> I'm not a huge fan of the default themes
<jaminday> Hehe well that is most important
<jaminday> yeah i'm using elementary
<humphreybc> yeah, I'm using Humanity which is oh so lovely
<jaminday> hmmm don't think ive got humanity
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> that's an icon theme
<doctormo> humphreybc: Your going to have to give me the details of what you want in the diagram, how much detail
<humphreybc> sorry it's Homosapien
<jaminday> ah yeah that's nice too
<humphreybc> jaminday: doctormo is going to make us a file system diagram
<humphreybc> doctormo: well
<jaminday> fantastic
<jaminday> he took off quick
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> he just said to me in a PM to email him details
<humphreybc> he's gone to bed
<humphreybc> so, what do we want?
<jaminday> Well, i don't know graphically how to depict it, but
<jaminday> basically we need to explain the difference between the c drive, d drive thing (ie windows) and the linux file structure
<jaminday> ie root /
<humphreybc> with a diagram thought
<humphreybc> ?
<humphreybc> though*
<jaminday> yep
<humphreybc> how with a diagram?
<humphreybc> I'm thinking something like a tree thing
<jaminday> hehe i have no idea
<jaminday> yeah that's what i was thinking
<humphreybc> so on the left, you have maybe 6 folder icons with their names beside them
<humphreybc> like /etc /var /dev /home /usr etc
<humphreybc> and beside them, a short bit of text that explains what each folder is for
<humphreybc> so we'd take maybe the 8 most important folders... which would be:
<jaminday> yep...
<humphreybc> bin, boot, dev, etc, home, mnt, usr, var
<humphreybc> do we need lib? or media?
<jaminday> yes for media
<jaminday> as it's where usb sticks etc are mounted
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> do we need boot? or bin?
<jaminday> cos we should explain that
<jaminday> maybe bin
<jaminday> because people always ask "where are the .exe files"
<humphreybc> i spose boot aint so important
<humphreybc> gmail is being a cock
<jaminday> yeah, and dev?
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> i dunno maybe it's gonna be too complicated
<jaminday> just thought it could be something useful for newbies that they won't find anywhere else on the net
<humphreybc> what do pen drives get called by default in /media when they're auto mounted?
<jaminday> hmm... i dunno. I labelled mine in palimpsest as usb4gig so it comes up as /media/usb4gig
<jaminday> i'd say it would be whatever the factory label on the stick is
<humphreybc>  k
<humphreybc> I just emailed Martin with the spec
<jaminday> cool. I'll be interested to see what he comes up with. I'm not good at design so it's beyond me.
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> I could probably do something in photoshop but don't have the time. I'm sure Martin will do it nice
<jaminday> cool
<humphreybc> I asked if he could do two diagrams, one explaining the stuff at / and the other explaining the stuff at /media
<humphreybc> jamin, you going to be around tomorrow?
<humphreybc> for most of tomorrow, after the meeting?
<jaminday> well... i might have an hour or so after the meeting, but then my wife is getting home from being away for the weekend, so if i don't give her some attention i'll be shot
<humphreybc> give her some attention for like an hour and then get back to work :)
<jaminday> hehe i'm sure she will LOVE that
<humphreybc> i was thinking, i'll start at chapter 9 and work backwards, you start at the prologue and work forwards
<humphreybc> we meet in the middle
<jaminday> yeah that's a great idea
<humphreybc> And if anyone else is around they can help too
<jaminday> yep, but i think we should be a little selective as well
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> by anyone else I mean Ilya or Kevin
<jaminday> we need it to be quality now
<jaminday> hehe yep agreed
<jaminday> I think Bryan has a good eye for it as well
<humphreybc> and also at the meeting tomorrow we need to nominate half a dozen people from the community or Canonical to test us for it
<humphreybc> oh yeah and Bryan
<humphreybc> so I was thinking asking popey, jono, pleia2, doctormo, elky
<humphreybc> and maybe Dustin
<jaminday> ok cool. You know better than i.
<humphreybc> k i'll find some people
<jaminday> when will you get them to start testing? Can you give it another couple of days till we have gone through like you suggested and really tidied up?
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> i'll get them to have a read through on Wednesday - Monday
<jaminday> That will save a lot of unnecessary feedback that we will probably fix anyway
<jaminday> yeah ok cool
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> hey, it's Daker!
 * humphreybc pats Daker on the back
<Daker> hi humphreybc :)
<humphreybc> awesome work on the website man
<humphreybc> everyone, give Daker a +1
<Daker> thanks u :)
<humphreybc> don't thank me! you did all the work!
 * jaminday gives Daker +1
<Daker> hhh
<jaminday> hehe yeah godbyk showed me the test site
<jaminday> it's looking good
<humphreybc> absolutely
<humphreybc> I especially love the translation support
<Daker> yeah
<humphreybc> keep it up Daker, it's looking awesome. Does it work well across all browsers? I've only had a chance to test it in Chrome and FF
<jaminday> ah yeah i didn't notice the language drop down before
<jaminday> nice
<Daker> yeah Chrome, IE7,  FF, Opera
<humphreybc> woohoo!
<humphreybc> IE8?
<Daker> i don't have IE8, i'll upgrade my IE7 to 8
<humphreybc> Daker, could you have a fancy flash image that changes the main image on the front page every 10 seconds or so?
<humphreybc> :P
<humphreybc> just to like different pages of the completed manual, but you could use placeholders for now
<humphreybc> actually it might work better in javascript
<Daker> yeah possible
<humphreybc> :D
<Daker> godbyk, tells me that the text in the website will be changed
<humphreybc> yup, that's correct
<humphreybc> it's not final just yet
<humphreybc> is it easy to change the text?
<Daker> yeah
<humphreybc> cool :)
<Daker> when you can change it ?
<humphreybc> the text?
<humphreybc> i'll probably finalize it next week sometime
<Daker> oki
<humphreybc> KDE
<humphreybc> oop
<humphreybc> that was meant to go in the web browser :)
 * humphreybc is looking for an example of a changing image
<humphreybc> http://www.kde.org/
<humphreybc> so you can see up the top every 5 seconds or so that thing changes with a quick fade?
<humphreybc> can we have the main image on our front page cycle through maybe 4 images every 10 seconds with a nice fade like that?
 * jaminday thinks humphreybc was lucky he didn't accidentally type something naughty into IRC instead of the web browser
<humphreybc> the four images will eventually be pages in the manual as examples, and then later on the screenshots will be of different manual versions for Kubuntu etc
<Daker> we can do more
<humphreybc> the first image in the cycle should be thorwils cover page
<humphreybc> Daker, yup I know, for now I think 4 is enough
<humphreybc> doesn't have to be anything too fancy, but more of a small showcase/preview of what the PDF looks like, and to add some animation to an otherwise fairly static website
<Daker> oki
<humphreybc> awesome :)
<humphreybc> Have you got any suggestions for improvements to the website?
<humphreybc> Since you're building it, you're more than welcome to have an input
 * Daker is thinking
<humphreybc> :)
<Daker_> back
 * Daker_ is thinking
<Daker> humphreybc, since we have no place to put the translation i have created this
<Daker> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/
<humphreybc> it's loading... everything is really slow at the moment for some reason
<humphreybc> Daker: nice
<humphreybc> that's a good idea
<Daker> so i'll push my work there ?, or i have to push it twice
<humphreybc> push it there
<humphreybc> we'll remove the stuff from the main manual branch :)
<jaminday> Don't remove anything yet!
<Daker> jaminday, +1
<jaminday> Wait till I push this stuff
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> kk
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> sorry overreacted a little there
 * Daker is on WinToZ
<humphreybc> lol
 * humphreybc is off to sleep
 * Daker is downloading the lucid beta1
<dutchie> o/
<Daker> godbyk, there is some problems here http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
<dutchie> godbyk: also, your ErrorDocument 404s
<Daker> he can't read styles.css, builds.css a 403 Forbidden
 * dutchie realises the UMP meeting clashes with the England rugby :(
<Daker> dutchie, i changed the buttons  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/contributions
<dutchie> nice
<Daker> dutchie, what's the # between GNU GPL v2 and v3 ?
<dutchie> dunno
<dutchie> ISTR something to do with patents
<Daker> oki
<dutchie> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/rms-why-gplv3.html
<dutchie> Daker: is the up-to-date website/ directory the one with index.html in the top level?
<Daker> no
<Daker> website/daker
<dutchie> $ ls website.moved/
<dutchie> countdown  favicon.ico  index.html  source      wolter-remake
<dutchie> daker      images       js          styles.css
<dutchie> so that one's wrong?
<Daker> $cd daker
<Daker> then
<Daker> $ls
<dutchie> just includes/
<dutchie> (in website/ not website.moved/)
<Daker> what ?????!!!!!!!!
<dutchie> josh@rigel:~/ubuntu-manual$ ls website.moved/daker/
<dutchie> core.php  favicon.ico  includes   INSTALL  manuals  robots.txt
<dutchie> css       images       index.php  js       pages
<dutchie> josh@rigel:~/ubuntu-manual$ ls website/daker/
<dutchie> includes
<Daker> yes that one website.moved/daker/
<Daker> bzr in WinToz doesn't want to work for me :s
<dutchie> god bzr is a pain
<Daker> yeah :D
<dutchie> 28 conflicts encountered.
<dutchie> afaict, there is no good way to resolve them all
 * dutchie tries other merge algorithms
<Daker> #ubuntu-metting
<Daker> sorry
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/get_reference.php?name=gedit-welcome
<Red_HamsterX> We can now pull reference screenshots from the server, in PNG or JPEG form. (So we can make them tiny to reduce loadtimes)
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, nice! This is implemented in the python side too?
<Red_HamsterX> There are (untested) functions to automatically pull the data.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm about to test them now.
<titeuf_87> ok
<Red_HamsterX> $ python -i quickshot/lib/__init__.py
<Red_HamsterX> >>> get_screencap_reference('http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/', {'name': 'gedit-welcome'})
<Red_HamsterX> '/home/flan/quickshot_temporary_reference.png'
<Red_HamsterX> Works perfectly.
<Red_HamsterX> :)
<titeuf_87> ah going with the temp file route?
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah. I couldn't find a way to get GTK to build a pixbuf from a file-like object.
<Red_HamsterX> Path or graphics context only.
<Red_HamsterX> I know how to convert formats using PIL, but that would impose an additional dependency.
<titeuf_87> You can use a pixbufloader I think for that. But a temp file works just fine too
<Red_HamsterX> Got a link to the API?
<Red_HamsterX> I'd prefer to work that way.
<titeuf_87> http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gdkpixbufloader.html
<titeuf_87> basically whenever you read some data from the server, you write it to the pixbufloader
<Red_HamsterX> Seems like exactly what we need. Thanks.
<Red_HamsterX> urllib2 blocks until the entire file is read, so the progressive feature is kinda wasted... but these things will be pretty small.
<Red_HamsterX> PNGs shouldn't be more than about 150k, and if we batch-convert everything to JPEG, it'll be, like, 25k.
<titeuf_87> yeah, no need to add support for displaying those images progressively while loading with such small sizes
<Red_HamsterX> $ python -i quickshot/lib/__init__.py
<Red_HamsterX> >>> get_screencap_reference('http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/', {'name': 'gedit-welcome'})
<Red_HamsterX> <gtk.gdk.Pixbuf object at 0x9f7d784 (GdkPixbuf at 0x9f22170)>
<Red_HamsterX> Seems to work fine.
<Red_HamsterX> Of course, I don't have a canvas on to which to render it.
<Red_HamsterX> onto*
<nisshh> REMINDER: UMP meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 45 minutes!
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, I'm going to add that to the ui now
<Red_HamsterX> It returns a 'No image found' thing if an unknown name is specified.
<Red_HamsterX> So you don't need to worry about broken content.
<titeuf_87> ah ok :)
<Red_HamsterX> The next thing to do is to get a dictionary-thing working... I'm thinking query-by-name -> dict response with ('text', 'sub-rect', 'maximized') values as keys.
<Red_HamsterX> And other things, as we find need for them.
<titeuf_87> the application to launch too
<Red_HamsterX> Client asks server for details about named screencap; server responds with content; library spits out a dictionary.
<Red_HamsterX> You mean the command?
<Red_HamsterX> Or the way too launch it by hand?
<Red_HamsterX> to*
<titeuf_87> the command: it'll be simple enough to add and it will be useful for most of the screenshots
<Red_HamsterX> Optional value?
<Red_HamsterX> (Like sub-rect)
<titeuf_87> yes
<Red_HamsterX> (Since sub-rect will probably only matter for a few edge cases where we want part of the panel or toolbar)
<titeuf_87> this has to be optional as screenshots for things like the gnome menu and panel won't have a command to launch
<Red_HamsterX> How does the following strike you for a human-manageable entry format...
<Red_HamsterX> [gedit-welcome]
<Red_HamsterX> I am summary text. I can span multiple lines.
<Red_HamsterX> To end me, use five dashes.
<Red_HamsterX> -----
<Red_HamsterX> command: /usr/bin/gedit ~/hello_world.txt
<Red_HamsterX> maximized: true
<Red_HamsterX> [other-screencap]
<titeuf_87> Looks good, but I wouldn't add in the line with five dashes. When a line starts with "command:" or "maximized:" or something similar you know already that the description is done
<Red_HamsterX> <reserved word>: <value> as teminator? Works for me.
<titeuf_87> yeah, I think that would be the easiest
<Red_HamsterX> Will the text need to be localized, or can we assume that the screencaps will be taken by people with enough knowledge of English to figure out that the picture should match what they see?
<Red_HamsterX> (With a few hints about what to click)
<Red_HamsterX> I missed any discussions on that subject.
<Red_HamsterX> I'd expect the text to be something simple like "Click File, then hover over 'Recent documents'."
<titeuf_87> I'm not sure about that myself, only thing I know is that now quickshot is English only
<titeuf_87> So my guess would be: not right now, but for the future it'll be probably needed.
<Red_HamsterX> Okay. The I won't worry about a translation structure for noww.
<Red_HamsterX> It wouldn't be hard to add one, but it's probably best not to waste time.
<bvb> is anyone running the beta ... I haven't finished the torrent yet (just started) and was wondering if the lucid power icon on the top panel includes the 'sleep' option
<Red_HamsterX> I can go boot it, if it's urgent.
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, also, I'm not sure anymore if I said that last night or not, but could you cache the results of bzr when you look up the final screenshots? Those won't change as fast and right now that is the slowest part when retrieving the screenshot list
<titeuf_87> and refresh that like once an hour or so
<Red_HamsterX> I can build a system like that...
<dutchie> bvb: (#ubuntu+1 would be a better channel)  yes
<Red_HamsterX> I kina imagined the client only reading it once on startup, though.
<Red_HamsterX> Read it, build todo list, never query again unless a reload button is clicked.
<titeuf_87> ah I can change it to work like that too. Hmm, that would probably be better, just have to make sure that new screenshots the user just made gets shown as such and doesn't show up as still to do
<Red_HamsterX> Well, either way works.
<Red_HamsterX> Writing a cache would be quite easy on my end.
<Red_HamsterX> Of course, a fe users would still get hit by the lag.
<Red_HamsterX> Since I'm using PHP on demand.
<Red_HamsterX> So it'd check mtime on the cache and determne whether it needs to be rebuilt or not.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm also checking it by branch.
<Red_HamsterX> So there'd be multiple caches, each of which would only really be used by one user.
<titeuf_87> hmm, probably easiest if I implement this client-side to only retrieve the list once
<titeuf_87> which will be really easy to do too
<titeuf_87> >>> get_screencap_status("http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/", {"language": "en_GB"})
<titeuf_87> (('gedit-welcome',), ('gedit-welcome',), ())
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, that's normal it shows the same screenshot both in the first and the second tuple?
<godbyk-android> I may be a little late to the meeting, but I'll be there eventually.
<nisshh> thats cool, benjamin hasnt turned up yet either
<dutchie> he does have a very silly time zone
<titeuf_87> the meeting's supposed to start in five minutes right?
<Daker> titeuf_87, right
<dutchie> ruining my rugby experience :(
<nisshh> titeuf_87: yes its starts in 5 minutes
<nisshh> in #ubuntu-meeting though not here
<titeuf_87> ah ok!
<nisshh> meh
<nisshh> hey rudi
<Red_HamsterX> How long do the meeting usually last?
<Rudi_ZA> hey nisshh
<dutchie> ~90 mins
<nisshh> sometimes longer lol
<rudi> how you doin nisshh
<nisshh> rudi: good you?
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, yes, it's normal. I changed the rules a little a few hours ago.
<Red_HamsterX> The three tuples still represent the same things, but the first one, which I've tentatively termed manifest, will always list every screenshot known to the system.
<nisshh> rudi: the meeting is in #ubuntu-meeting, you should head over there too
<Red_HamsterX> It's the master list.
<rudi> oki :)
<rudi> heading htere now
<nisshh> cool
<Daker> 2001
<titeuf_87> Red_HamsterX, ah ok, that makes sense
<Red_HamsterX> The other two, the pending-approval list and accepted list, are now subsets of the first.
<Red_HamsterX> They will never overlap.
<nisshh> anyone know where benjamin is as of yet?
<Red_HamsterX> Accepted takes precedence over pending.
<dutchie> nisshh: asleep probably
<nisshh> dutchie: hehe
<dutchie> OK, I'm going to have to attempt to eat supper, watch england play rugby and participate in the meeting all at the same time
<nisshh> dutchie: good luck with that...
<Red_HamsterX> You'll be fine.
<dutchie> is the wiki really slow for anyone else?
<nisshh> nope
<nisshh> you editing?
<dutchie> no, just trying to load the agenda
<semioticrobotic> dutchie: it was responding slowly for me earlier today
<dutchie> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/wiki.ubuntu.com
<nisshh> nope, up for me
<dutchie> ooh, up now
<dutchie> ooh, down again
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> whos your isp?
<nisshh> hey jaminday
<dutchie> failfail
<jaminday> nisshh: mornin
<nisshh> benjamins snoring as usual
<jaminday> no way. He made me promise i wouldn't sleep in
<nisshh> hehe
<jaminday> and it's 2 hours later for him over there!
<nisshh> yea, kinda sad isnt it
<nisshh> iv been coding since 1am
<dutchie> http://twitter.com/jshholland/status/10788015062 ;)
<nisshh> hehe
<jaminday> so where we at then for this meeting
<Red_HamsterX> #ubuntu-meeting; hasn't started yet.
<Red_HamsterX> Or it's just starting now.
<godbyk-android> Be with you in just a moment.
<Red_HamsterX> titeuf_87, did you get the locale snippet I gave to ubuntujenkins earlier this week?
<Red_HamsterX> Er...
<Red_HamsterX> os.environ.get('LANG')*
<Red_HamsterX> Assuming you still need it.
<Red_HamsterX> Also, I
<Red_HamsterX> I'll give you a function to maximize the active window.
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, wait...
<Red_HamsterX> That won't work...
<Red_HamsterX> I'll try to write a function to find the jst-launched window and maximize it automatically.
<titeuf_87> for the locale stuff I use the python locale module, which gives the same results
 * Red_HamsterX flees.
<godbyk> hey, dutchie. so what's up with the website?
<dutchie> it's not working
<dutchie> 403
<godbyk> I know, you broke it. :)
<dutchie> and there's a 403 on the ErrorDocument
<dutchie> godbyk: i didn't do anything :P
<godbyk> It automatically pulls the bzr branch every 30 minutes.
<godbyk> So when the website dir was renamed to website.moved, that took down the site.
<dutchie> bloody bzr
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> So what's the aim with the website and website.moved dirs?
<dutchie> it's from when I merged in the translations
<dutchie> bzr helpfully moved the website directories
<godbyk> What I'd like to do is get Daker's site running live, but just remove the nav temporarily and put the countdown stuff on the homepage.
<godbyk> that way we can start building the other stuff using the same template (like the bugs form)
 * dutchie aimlessly says lp:ubuntu-manual-website
<godbyk> did Daker disappear on me again?
<dutchie> looks that way
 * godbyk doesn't want to venture into php code alone without a flashlight.  <shudders>
<dutchie> 21:02:11 -!- Daker [~Daker@wana-191-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<godbyk> all right, guess I'll have to start poking around then.
<godbyk> is daker making his changes to the ubuntu-manual/website/daker dir or the ubuntu-manual-website repository?
<dutchie> I assume ubuntu-manual-website
<humphreybc> godbyk, move to here
<godbyk> here
<humphreybc> I think screenshots are okay
<humphreybc> we'll work on that as we go along
<godbyk> k
 * dutchie thinks the rugby has slipped away
<humphreybc> dutchie: ?
<dutchie> humphreybc: 6 nations
<dutchie> your meeting ruined it :(
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> yep, it's gone
<dutchie> bloody frogs
<dutchie>  12-10
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> nothing funny about it :(
<godbyk> hmm.. it appears that the ubuntu-manual/website/daker stuff has been updated more recently than the ubuntu-manual-website repository.
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> I think the plan is to eventually move stuff over to ubuntu-manual-website
<godbyk> dutchie: will I break any of the translation stuff if I move everything from website.moved/* to website/?
<dutchie> no
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> bzr is being all whiney.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> hate it when that happens
<humphreybc> okay what do I need to do now?
<humphreybc> (today)
<humphreybc> write draft of blog post, start editing middle chapters, add a bit to the prologue to explain that the manual is always under development
<humphreybc> what else?
 * Red_HamsterX returns.
 * Red_HamsterX hax code.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> 8 seconds after returning he gets straight into work, good one!
<dutchie> humphreybc: I'm sure there are lots of mythtv setting up guides on the web
<humphreybc> dutchie: probabl
<humphreybc> probably*
 * godbyk is pushing the huge website fix. taking forever.
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> rev 536 finally done pushing.
<godbyk> what? no manualbot?
 * godbyk is disappointed
<dutchie> hmm
 * dutchie definitely should get round to setting the reverse dns
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> manualbot: finally!
<manualbot> godbyk: Error: "finally!" is not a valid command.
<manualbot> Factoid 'finally!' not found
<godbyk> heh
<godbyk> manualbot, get me a hammer!
<manualbot> godbyk: Error: "get" is not a valid command.
<manualbot> godbyk: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<godbyk> useless!
<godbyk> dutchie: manualbot should respond with "Que?" when he doesn't understand something. :)
<humphreybc> hahah
<humphreybc> totally
<godbyk> okay, http://ubuntu-manual.org/ is back up now.
<humphreybc> schwing!
<godbyk> humphreybc: btw, I expect the progress bar was failing while the site was down, too.
<humphreybc> oh true
<humphreybc> oh well
<humphreybc> hey
<dutchie> hmm
<humphreybc> the language selection thing is now awesome
<godbyk> okay, I'm starving. I'm gonna grab something to eat real quick and be right back.
<humphreybc> kk
<godbyk> then I'm probably going to try to jam the countdown page into daker's site, comment out the nav stuff to the pages people shouldn't see yet and just make it the main site.
<godbyk> then I can start integrating everything else in.
<godbyk> dutchie: should I kill the website stuff under ubuntu-manual and just move all daker's stuff to ubuntu-manual-website instead?
<dutchie> yeah, probably
<dutchie> as long as it's all in there
<godbyk> it will be when I'm done with it, I guess.
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> brb
<dutchie> right
<dutchie> grep -r "is not a valid command" /
<dutchie> grep: warning: /usr/X11R6/bin/X11: recursive directory loop
<dutchie> hmm
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> back now
<godbyk> shite.. dutchie!  did I do something back re: translations?
<godbyk> I just saw an email from rosetta that it snagged a pot file. was that my commit?
<dutchie> it auto-snags pot files, nothing to worry about
<godbyk> okay.. just checking.
<humphreybc> godbyk how much did you add to the branch?
<humphreybc> it's still downloading new stuff, up to 7mb!
<godbyk> yeah, I had to move all the website stuff around and bzr was being a pain.
<godbyk> but it took forever to upload
<humphreybc> ahk
<humphreybc> it's going at 6KB/s
<dutchie> night everyone
<humphreybc> night!
<humphreybc> I have a cool idea
<humphreybc> it would require mugshots of everyone in the team
<humphreybc> so, mugshots pl0x
<godbyk> I wish launchpad were faster on its bzr updates.
<humphreybc> i wish that too
<humphreybc> godbyk, get my email to the list just now?
<godbyk> humphreybc: about the mugshots? yeah
<humphreybc> cool
<godbyk> whatcha plannin'?
<humphreybc> it's a surprise :P
<godbyk> uh huh.
<humphreybc> where is the description of the linux file system going to go?
<humphreybc> anyone?
<godbyk> I know nothing about it.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> there doesn't seem to be a good place
<humphreybc> maybe troubleshooting
<humphreybc> ?
<humphreybc> or learning more
<godbyk> it's not a troubleshooting thing
<godbyk> or a learning more thing
<humphreybc> security? prologue?
<humphreybc> around desktop?
<humphreybc> installation perhaps
<humphreybc> mebbe that's the best location
<godbyk> what about the file system?
<humphreybc> it explains the core folders and stuff
<humphreybc> where things are mounted
<humphreybc> it should probably go in the advanced half, but for now it's going at the end of installation
<godbyk> if you're talking about it from the terminal angle, I'd put it in the advanced stuff.
<godbyk> if you're talking about it from, say, the nautilus view, then put it in the non-advanced stuff.
<godbyk> humphreybc: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> humphreybc: What else needs to be done to that site before I can switch it over to ubuntu-manual.org?
<humphreybc> Ooo I love the bug form
<humphreybc> could you make the countdown timer more prominent?
<humphreybc> maybe insert an image of a clock beside it or something
<humphreybc> and then in about 10 hours we'll have to change the banner to the new logo
<godbyk> Find me an image of a clock and sure. :)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-21
<godbyk> crap.  I think the auto-update overwrote the changes I was working on.
<godbyk> Today I'm totally kicking myself for setting that up! :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> what do you think about this as the main text on the front page
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/398529/
<godbyk> sounds too technical-oriented for the audience we're after.
<humphreybc> and this is the feature text: http://paste.ubuntu.com/398530/
<humphreybc> oh yeah?
<humphreybc> hm
<godbyk> My mom isn't going to care about the license, the page count, or any of that.
<godbyk> Talk about what the manual will help the user do.
<godbyk> No one cares that it's in 534 languages.. they only care that it's in their own language.
<godbyk> They don't care about the license.
<godbyk> Tell them what they'll be able to do after they've read the manual.
<godbyk> How will it help them?
<humphreybc> "The manual will help you become familiar with everyday
<humphreybc> tasks such as surfing the web, listening to music and
<humphreybc> scanning documents."
<humphreybc> "With an emphasis on easy to follow
<humphreybc> instructions, it is suitable for all levels of experience."
<humphreybc> how's that?
<humphreybc> I'm going to keep the bit about the license because I think that's important
<godbyk> what does this mean?
<godbyk> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock): Transport operation not possible: http does not support mkdir()
<humphreybc> lol no idea
<humphreybc> google it
<humphreybc> "http does not support mkdir()"
<humphreybc> hmm
<Red_HamsterX> "It is written for the community, by the community." as an alternative to using scary terms like "open source" and "license"?
<godbyk> humphreybc: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/ better?
<godbyk> I'm going to move daker's stuff over to the live site now.
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: Hmm. I really really want to emphasize the open source bit, because it's important that people know about open source
<godbyk> so uh.. no one should screw up the things in website/daker (or move them).  :-)
<godbyk> humphreybc: emphasize it at the right moment, though.
<humphreybc> yeah that's good
<Red_HamsterX> I agree that it's important, but it should be mentioned once they're comfortable.
<godbyk> when they're visiting your website, looking for help and answers, they don't care at all about open source and it'll just get in their way.
<godbyk> you really don't have to beat people over the head with things, they'll generally pick up on it over time.
<godbyk> we explain open source in the manual anyway, don't we?
<Red_HamsterX> And disambiguate it from Free software to keep Stallman happy?
<Red_HamsterX> =P
<godbyk> WE'LL DO IT LIVE!  http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<Red_HamsterX> ONOZ!
<humphreybc> well, that was weird
 * humphreybc is beginning to reconsider whether running photoshop under Wine is really worth it when it destroys your compuer
<humphreybc> godbyk, heh, i knew all that stuff already
<humphreybc> tried restarted X and stuff
<humphreybc> i just did another reboot and it worked okay
<humphreybc> be back in a sec
<godbyk> weird
<godbyk> Okay, that does it. I'm going to read a fiction book.
<godbyk> I fixed the title for the manual.
<godbyk> In the process of setting up the new site, I whacked the builds dir and lost the css and icons and stuff.  whatever
<godbyk> will fix it later
<godbyk> new builds things are here: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> I also set up screenshots.ubuntu-maunal.org, but will have to chat with the quickshot guys later to put the code there.
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> is the branch broken?
<humphreybc> ssh: Could not resolve hostname bazaar.launchpad.net: Name or service not known
<humphreybc> bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: Unexpected end of message. Please check connectivity and permissions, and report a bug if problems persist.
<humphreybc> oh nope it worked okay the second time
<humphreybc> weird
<humphreybc> If anyone sees Daker, tell him I've mocked up a Contributors page
<humphreybc> and finalized the text for the website
<godbyk> humphreybc: don't break my website or I will hurt you. :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i'm trying to push some stuff in ubuntu-manual-website
<humphreybc> but it looks like daker has locked the branch
<godbyk-android> Don't use that branch anyway. It's out of date.
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> so we're not using that?
<humphreybc> it needs to become up to date at some point
<godbyk-android> Not sure  I'm not because those files were polder than the ones in ubuntu-manual/website
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> we'll sort it out later
<humphreybc> go back to your novel :)
<Red_HamsterX> With a PPA, can we set dependencies on other (already-in-main) packages?
<Red_HamsterX> I've never worked directly with one before.
<Red_HamsterX> I've added a dependence on python-wnck, but everything titeuf wanted works now.
<Red_HamsterX> The dependence is easy to sever if we want to let the user click maximize themselves.
<Red_HamsterX> (It's a tiny set of bindings against an always-present Gnome library. It's Canonical-supported)
<shrini> team:
<shrini> need help
<shrini> can not download latest build
<shrini> it shows 404 error
<shrini> humphreybc: you there?
<shrini> http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual.pdf
<shrini> is not there
<shrini> 404 error
<humphreybc> so, where are the mugshots? hmm?
<godbyk> apparently, no one wants to play.
<godbyk> humphreybc: do you have any sort of estimate as to the number of contributors we'll have listed in the credits section?  translators, authors, editors, team leads, designers, website, blah blah blah...
<humphreybc> godbyk, have a look in /website/source
<humphreybc> contributors.png
<humphreybc> something like that perhaps
<humphreybc> and if no one sends me mugshots i'll resort to googling your names and finding photos off launchpad
<godbyk> lol
<humphreybc> godbyk did you get my android gtalk message?
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, I just noticed it.
<godbyk> hadn't turned on the sound yet.
<humphreybc> ah right
<humphreybc> i want to see how latitude works
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> howcome i can't see you in my friends list
<humphreybc> ?
<humphreybc> do I have to do something special?
<humphreybc> ahh
<humphreybc> i have to add you
<humphreybc> godbyk, I added you, you probably have to accept
<godbyk> yay, thorwil's here!
<thorwil> morning! :)
<godbyk> I just woke up from a four-hour nap.  Didn't get much reading done!
<humphreybc> hey thorwil
<humphreybc> remember the first thing you were going to do? :P
<godbyk> okay, 'bzr status' says I haven't modified anything, but when I do a bzr pull, it says the branches have diverged and I have to merge 'em.  what's up with that?
<humphreybc> no idea lol
<humphreybc> bzr is weird
<godbyk> crap.
<godbyk> I think I committed something but didn't push it.
<thorwil> awesome. an unfilled rectangle in my svg becomes a filled one in pdf
<godbyk> thorwil: nice.  so are the problems with the PDF format itself or with inkscape's export function?
<thorwil> godbyk: no idea and doesn't really matter
<thorwil> godbyk: turning the stroke into a path makes this work. gonna try a minimal case and report that bug
<godbyk> 'kay
<thorwil> so that was my x-session suddenly disappearing
<humphreybc1> happened to me too!
<humphreybc1> on lucid?
<thorwil> no, still karmic
<humphreybc1> hm
<thorwil> humphreybc1: work on logo takes a bit longer as i'm trying to make it pdf-compatible
<humphreybc1> thorwil: that's okay
<thorwil> humphreybc1, godbyk: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/ba2ef5cd976bd1d63992669bc9f84f5d
<godbyk> thorwil: I think the bottom one with the lighter border color looks better.
<humphreybc1> yep
<humphreybc1> I agree with Kevin
<humphreybc1> I wonder what it would look like with a small drop shadow underneat?
 * humphreybc1 loves drop shadows
<godbyk> humphreybc1: is obsessed with drop shadows.
<godbyk> I think a drop shadow would just muddy up the image.
<humphreybc1> it might do
<humphreybc1> just below the book
<humphreybc1> not around it
<humphreybc1> like a blog
<humphreybc1> blob*
<humphreybc1> actually
<humphreybc1> it probably would mess it up a bit
<godbyk> we're using flat glyphs everywhere else, why would we want the logo to be 3d?
<humphreybc1> godbyk, don't make me suggest we change everything else to 3D with drop shadows
<humphreybc1> ;)
<humphreybc1> okay fair enough
<humphreybc1> no drop shadow
<godbyk> never fear.  I have a strong suspicion that thorwil would reject that notion out of hand. :)
<humphreybc1> of course he would
 * humphreybc1 <3 thorwil 
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> humphreybc1: you wanted different sizes?
<humphreybc1> Red_HamsterX, TommyBrunn, Jono keeps harassing me about python snippets
<humphreybc1> thorwil: yeah that would be nice. i suppose i could work out how to change the size in Inkscape though
<humphreybc1> I might be capable of that
<humphreybc1> :P
<godbyk> well it's not always a matter of just scaling the image up or down.
<godbyk> the larger images can afford more detail than the smaller version.
<godbyk> versions.
<godbyk> and the line thicknesses may need to be adjusted, too.
<humphreybc1> thorwil, just if you could do small/medium and large versions of both the logo + wording and then just the logo
<humphreybc1> true
<thorwil> humphreybc1: this is all aligned to the pixel grid. if you choose a size where things don't end up on the grid again, things get blurry
<humphreybc1> so the largest would be about the size of the one on the website/wiki ... before I made it smaller, if you remember that
<humphreybc1> smallest would be about 20x20
<humphreybc1> I'm sure you know what I mean
<humphreybc1> we need to cover launchpad, wiki, website, facebook, twitter, identi.ca, that other thing that godbyk set up which has kudos and also in the manual
<godbyk> most of those are using nice binary multiples.. 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, 128x128, etc.
<thorwil> humphreybc1: i actually think the current size might be just fine for wiki and website. this graphic doesn't gain anything by growing larger, there's no detail to add
<humphreybc1> okay
<humphreybc1> binary sizes are good
<humphreybc1> what godbyk said
<godbyk> I'm going to a TeX conference at the beginning of July. Just looking over the presentations they've accepted so far, and some will be handy to see.
 * godbyk is excited about the conference even though normal people would find it terribly dull.
<humphreybc1> hahaha
<humphreybc1> YAY!
<humphreybc1> Tex!
<thorwil> humphreybc1: favicon 16x16. launchpad uses 14x14?
<humphreybc1> yeah launchpad are weird
<humphreybc1> they have three different sizes
<godbyk> 14x14? seriously?
<humphreybc1> 14x14, 64x64 and 192x192
<humphreybc1> I think
<humphreybc1> 14x14 is for the little teeny icon
<godbyk> wtf is that about.  that's just wrong.
<humphreybc1> lol
<godbyk> humphreybc1: This TeX talk sounds insane! http://tug.org/tug2010/abstracts/verna.txt  (I can't wait to hear it!)
<humphreybc1> lolwut
<humphreybc1> Latex and biology?
<humphreybc1> stranger things have happened I guess
<godbyk> evolving macros sound scary to me. :)
<godbyk> Okay, I'm off to read some more and then get some real sleep.
<godbyk> G'night!
<humphreybc1> night!
<dutchie> night godbyk
<dutchie> morning everyone else
<dutchie> did Red_HamsterX get his dependencies sorted?
<humphreybc1>    hi dutche
<humphreybc1> blah
<humphreybc1> dutchie, email your mugshot please :)
<dutchie> will http://media.joshh.co.uk/~jrh/me.jpg do?
<humphreybc1> yea that'll work
<humphreybc1> :)
<humphreybc1> awesome, you can drag images from chrome to a folder and it downloads the image/sticks it in the folder
<humphreybc1> I didn't know that
<humphreybc1> might hit the sack soon too
<humphreybc1> dutchie, if you see daker could you tell him:
<humphreybc1> 1) I've finalized the text for the website
<humphreybc1> and 2) I've added a mockup of what the contributors page should look like
<dutchie> will do
<humphreybc1> both the text and the new mockup are under website/source in the main manual branch
<humphreybc1> and the text is actually in the mockups, not in text files or anything
<humphreybc1> thanks
<humphreybc1> and with that, i'm off to bed
<humphreybc1> night!
<humphreybc1> before I forget
<humphreybc1> thorwil, i'll need the new logo in different sizes in my inbox by 0400 UTC on Monday
<humphreybc1> godbyk, can you make sure that the download link for the english manual is working and the bug form is working before 0800 UTC on Monday
<humphreybc1> I'm going to post the OMG! Ubuntu! article at about 0900 UTC on Monday
<thorwil> humphreybc1: any other sizes than given, 14, 16, 64 and 192 px?
<humphreybc1> dutchie, if you have time, go through the current bugs and triage them so they're completely up to date, remove any that have been fixed. We need a clean slate to work from for this week
<dutchie> ok
<humphreybc1> thorwil: You could do a really nice high res one :)
<humphreybc1> and you're including the text as well?
<thorwil> humphreybc1: only with currents size was the plan
<humphreybc1> cool
<humphreybc1> I can just crop the logo out when I need to use it without the text
<godbyk-android> Make sure daker pulls my updates before changing things. (He's new to bzr.)
<humphreybc1> sweet
<humphreybc1> right, everyone got all that? I'll be back in about 16 hours.
 * humphreybc1 has to sleep, then has uni
<godbyk-android> ditto.
<humphreybc1> sweet. dutchie, because you're going to be up for the better part of the next 16 hours, you're in charge. If daker comes, make sure he knows what's going on.
<dutchie> ok
<humphreybc1> sweet :)
<humphreybc1> night!
<komsas> cat /home/komsas/.irssi/nicklistfifo
<shrini> team:
<shrini> today we had a good time
<shrini> with translating ubuntu manual into tamil
<shrini> thanks all for your support
<shrini> we did some 20% of work
<ubuntujenkins> hows everyone doing?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: hai
<shrini> we did some translation in tamil
<shrini> some 20-30% of job is done
<ubuntujenkins> Thats realy good news shrini
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: we had a lot of fun here
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: translation is a great job
<ubuntujenkins> glad you like it
<ubuntujenkins> does any one know where i can find the minutes to yesterdays meeting? I can't find them in the logs and they are not on the wiki
<shrini> i too want it
<shrini> thanks a lot for all your support and encouragement
<shrini> we will keep on doing in this week days, if possible
<shrini> if not, we will gathewr in the weekend and do it
<shrini> 12 people of our kanchilug came here and do it
<ubuntujenkins> good to see you are making progress and haveing fun whilst doing it :-)
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> we all gathered in my home
<shrini> mom and dad keep on giving tea,busicuts, snacks etc
<shrini> hahaha
<ubuntujenkins> haha sounds fun
<shrini> we kept on discussing, writing, kidding on our tamil knowledge
<shrini> today only we know that how we are lack in tamil
<shrini> hahhaa
<shrini> but still the group activity gave us the
<shrini> enthuasism to do it
<shrini> now 2 guys are uploading their work in LP
<ubuntujenkins> nice
<shrini> thanks a lot
<shrini> now going for dinner
<shrini> will update the status as we do
<ubuntujenkins> hope the food is good
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<shrini> true
<shrini> okey
<shrini> catch you later
<ubuntujenkins> bye o/
<Daker> hi!!!
<Daker> anyone here ?
<ubuntujenkins> hello Daker
<Daker> how are u @all ?
<ubuntujenkins> I am a little tired but good. you?
<Daker> fine, with some DNS problem yesterday :)
<ubuntujenkins> I guess its all sorted now then
<Daker> yeah
<ubuntujenkins> good good
<dutchie> ooh, Daker
<Daker> hi dutchie
<ubuntujenkins> are dutchie do we have minutes for the meeting yet?
<dutchie> 11:13:50 < humphreybc1> dutchie, if you see daker could you tell him:
<dutchie> 11:13:57 < humphreybc1> 1) I've finalized the text for the website
<dutchie> 11:14:07 < humphreybc1> and 2) I've added a mockup of what the contributors page should look like
<dutchie> 11:14:24 < dutchie> will do
<dutchie> 11:14:32 < humphreybc1> both the text and the new mockup are under website/source in the main manual branch
<dutchie> 11:14:40 < humphreybc1> and the text is actually in the mockups, not in text files or anything
<dutchie> 11:15:03 < humphreybc1> thanks
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: don't think so
<ubuntujenkins> ok did i miss much?
<dutchie> we had it in #ubuntu-meeting, that could be why you can't find it in the logs
<ubuntujenkins> I looked in #ubuntu-meeting but still couldn't find them i will doubel check
<dutchie> Daker: got all that?
<Daker> yeah got it
<ubuntujenkins> there is no log http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/03/20/%23launchpad-meeting.html
<Daker> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/03/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<Daker> ubuntujenkins, :)
<ubuntujenkins> i was loking at lanchpad meeting thanks Daker I have only had 8 hours sleep since friday
<Daker> http://ubuntu-manual.org/ is it godbyk how made this ?
<Daker> be back taler
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87 and Red_HamsterX it looks like the meeting went well yesterday. Thanks for all your work so far, is there anything i can do at the moment to help?
<titeuf_87> looks like Red_HamsterX implemented a lot of the stuff already we talked about yesterday
<ubuntujenkins> I am so pleased with how quickly it is coming along
<ubuntujenkins> I can give you the latest screenshot list
<titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, can you take a look at server/screencaps/config/dictionary and see if that's simple enough?
<titeuf_87> this is where the list of screenshots that needs to be taken will be stored
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/398864/, it the list I think the quickshot live cd will be easy i am having compliing issues at the moment though
 * ubuntujenkins looks
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: it looks good to me, will it contain all of the screenshots or will there be a file for each screenshot, what is the #=sub-rect= line and the one below mean?
<ubuntujenkins> currently commented out
<titeuf_87> that is if we only need a small part of a screenshot and not the whole window
<titeuf_87> or in case of fullscreen windows to just grab the network list for instance
<ubuntujenkins> i see how does the cordiates work? point to start from then size of box?
<titeuf_87> I guess top-left corner and bottom-right corner, but I haven't played with it yet
<ubuntujenkins> thats great
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, it's top-left and dimensions.
<Red_HamsterX> A negative value for top or left will make it relative ot the opposite side.
<Red_HamsterX> I can change anything quite easily, if needed.
<Red_HamsterX> (Especially since I'm no longer bound to my netbook, so I can actually code things quickly)
<shrini> http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual.pdf
<shrini> is not working
<godbyk-android> shrini: try builds.ubuntu-manual.org.
<shrini> great
<shrini> but
<shrini> this link is not in wiki page
<shrini> that non working link only given there
<shrini> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<godbyk-android> We'll need to fix the wiki page then.
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> last week it worked well
<ubuntujenkins> ok that sounds good Red_HamsterX
<godbyk-android> It's a completely different website as of yesterday, though.
 * ubuntujenkins edits wiki
<godbyk-android> Thanks, ubuntujenkins!
<ubuntujenkins> no problem its being slow today
<ubuntujenkins> will be done when it loads
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-android: You are aware you can't download the any pdfs or text files from builds.ubuntu-manual.org?
<godbyk-android> That may be true. I'm still getting it setup.
<ubuntujenkins> thats ok I have pointed the wiki at the uk version like before
<ubuntujenkins> *us english
<godbyk-android> Okay. I'll get things updated in just a but.
<godbyk-android> Bit.
<ubuntujenkins> no problem just wanted to make sure you were aware
<shrini> team: here is our fun day. http://kanchilug.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/translating-ubuntu-manual-into-tamil/
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: already reading it :-)
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: in the picture below "My mom and dad made us tireless with their snacks, tea, juice and sweet words. They are so proud of the team on this work." what is the guy in the picture holding? is it a cd?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: yes.
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: ubuntu CD
<shrini> custom made cover to distribute locally
<ubuntujenkins> I like the case design
<shrini> :-)
<godbyk> Okay, I'm back at my computer again. Let me look at the build site stuff.
<godbyk> Hey, vish, are you around?
<vish> godbyk: yup
<godbyk> vish: What icons would you suggest I use to link to the manual PDFs and log files on the ubuntu-manual build page?
<godbyk> http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> I had some ugly ones before, but I accidentally deleted them when I moved the builds page.
<godbyk> (Along with the .css file.)
<vish> godbyk: you can use the same icons used in lp
<godbyk> where are they?
<vish> hmm.. lemme check
<vish> godbyk: https://launchpad.net/+icing/rev9091/icon-sprites
<vish> godbyk: save that as a png , it has several icons
<vish> godbyk: also > https://launchpad.net/@@/build-success
<godbyk> ooh.. nice checkbox.  is there a build-failure, too?
<godbyk> there is!
<godbyk> vish: I didn't see a pdf or log file icon in the sprites.
<vish> godbyk: hmm , i dont think we have a pdf , the icon-sprites have several icons.. there is one with "files" and a file too
<vish> godbyk: or you can just grab the pdf icon from the humanity theme , there is a 16px icon and a 16px log icon
<vish> godbyk: pdf > /usr/share/icons/Humanity/mimes/16/gnome-mime-application-pdf.svg
<vish> godbyk: for logfile > /usr/share/icons/Humanity/apps/16/accessories-text-editor.svg
<godbyk> I think I may use launchpad's file icon for the log files and their download icon for the pdf. let me try that real quick and see if it makes sense.
<vish> yeah..
<vish> godbyk: for log file you can use the dots with lines like the one used for changelog here > https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/gtk2-engines-murrine
 * vish ZZzzz...
 * ubuntujenkins is going to restart and try the first every ubuntu manual quickshot live cd
<dutchie> ooh, nice idea
<godbyk> wow! that sounds impressive!
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: does it work?
<ubuntujenkins> erm no I think i forgot to change something I got ditracted whilst making it I am wrting a script to do it as i think I will be trying to do this a few times.
<ubuntujenkins> also I have onlly had 8 hours sleep since friday
<ubuntujenkins> and my typing is awful
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: where was the bad wiki link (to the PDF)?
<ubuntujenkins> erm it was on the download buttonon the home page I can't use the internet to check it i acedently removed my resolve.conf
<godbyk> k
<ubuntujenkins> but irc still works
<godbyk> vish: Looking a little better?  http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> I'm still fiddling with the css to format the table (adjusting the spacing, mostly).
<godbyk> brb. need food. starving.
<godbyk> back
<godbyk> I just printed the whole manual, so I'll sit down and start reading through it and marking it up soon.
#ubuntu-manual 2011-03-14
<jenkins> evening all
#ubuntu-manual 2011-03-15
<jenkins> godbyk: ping
#ubuntu-manual 2011-03-18
<Andre_Gondim> How do I generate a pdf from my translations?
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Which edition?
<Andre_Gondim> e1
<Andre_Gondim> lucid-e1
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: You should be able to run 'make ubuntu-manual-LANGUAGECODE.pdf' where LANGUAGECODE is the language code (like en-US or fr or es or whatever you want).
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, but, what I need to do, before do this, I was translating at rosetta
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Ah, in that case, you'll need to download the .po file from Launchpad (Rosetta).
<godbyk> Place that .po file in the po/ subdirectory.
<godbyk> Then you can run "make ubuntu-manual-LANGCODE.pdf"
<godbyk> Make sure the .po file is named LANGCODE.po, too.  (I think Launchpad/Rosetta names them differently sometimes.)
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, can you give me tip for this "We highly recommend enabling the "create symlinks to standard directories" option."
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Yes. When you run the install-tl.sh script, make sure you go to the options menu (O) and enable the symbolic links.
<godbyk> (Sorry for the late reply. xchat hasn't been beeping at me lately.)
<c7p> hey godbyk
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.  Sorry for the late reply. I had to snag a book from the library before it closed.
<c7p> no problem
<c7p> godbyk: do we have new responses from advs ?
<godbyk> I think we only had one more so far.
<c7p> oh :)
<godbyk> Yeah, I received one on the 15th.
<c7p> i guess on this meeting we will elect leader and editor, right ?
<godbyk> Yep.
<godbyk> Not sure what the process will be exactly.
<godbyk> I guess just have everyone read the responses we got from the applicants and then vote?
<c7p> that's why i mentioned it
<c7p> yeah that sounds good
<godbyk> I don't know what voting method we'll use.  Guess we'll figure that out when the time comes.
<c7p> should we give time to candidates for talk or we will get this beyond the limits of the meeting ?
<godbyk> Good question.
<c7p> regarding the voting method, we used a bot for voting if my memory presents my right for paddings etc
<c7p> maybe we can use the same method
<godbyk> Well, I meant do we only allow each person to vote for one applicant per role?  Or do we use some sort of run-off voting system where each voter votes for all the applicants they like?
 * c7p thinking
<zkriesse> HI all
<c7p> i zkriesse
<godbyk> Hey, zkriesse.
<zkriesse> :)
<zkriesse> Long time no talk eh?
<c7p> Kevin the latter sounds better to me
<c7p> zkriesse something like this :)
<zkriesse> lol
<c7p> maybe we can separate the election process, in the first part of it all candidates can be voted (each one of us can have 2 or 3 maximum 3 votes) and the two most voted will have the right to participate in the "final election", this is the second part where everyone has the one vote
<godbyk> Something like that could work, too.
<godbyk> I think we'll probably just have to wait and see how it goes.
<godbyk> It'll depend on how many applicants we have and how many voters we have, I thin.
<godbyk> think, rather.
<c7p> yes you are right
<zkriesse> applicants for what?
<godbyk> zkriesse: http://ubuntu-manual.org/jobs
<zkriesse> hmm good luck with that
<godbyk> zkriesse: Thanks.  We've had a few applicants for each position, but not too many.  I think ~3 per position so far.
<c7p> good night all :)
#ubuntu-manual 2011-03-19
<c7p> godbyk: ping
<c7p> never mind i just wanted to tell you that i sent the mail to the candidates, see you later :)
#ubuntu-manual 2013-03-15
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<hannie> hey CarstenG
<hannie> CarstenG, would you like me to test your new script or is the Greek test sufficient?
<CarstenG> I just saw your email about Natilus / Files.
<hannie> CarstenG, yes, I was just going to answer vibhav on Nautilus 3.6
<hannie> What do you think of Nautilus 3.6?
<CarstenG> I think, you can drop a marginnote about this change, but I would not write a whole section for downgrading to 3.4. I think we should describe the current situation...
<godbyk> hannie: Since the manual is primarily for people just starting to use Ubuntu, I think it'd be too confusing to say, 'Here's how the file manager works. But this one stinks and you should install this other one instead.'  I think we're better off just documenting the default file manager.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Your script is pretty awesome. Nicely done!
<CarstenG> Kevin, this is also my point.
<hannie> hi godbyk
<hannie> I am chewing on your comment right now
<CarstenG> Thanks, :-) I will improve it further, I just know about some minor bugs...
<godbyk> Also, sabdfl just approved this feature-freeze exception: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1154229
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 1154229 in unity-scope-gdrive "[FFE] New Unity stack" [Undecided,Triaged]
<godbyk> So we'll have to keep an eye on that.It looks like it'll be landing quite late, unfortunately.
<CarstenG> grml... I thought is was set to "wont fix"...
<godbyk> CarstenG: Me, too. I'm getting a bit irked about this huge features that are shoehorned in at the last moment.
<godbyk> It makes our job quite difficult.
<godbyk> It takes us time to learn how these new features work so we can document and describe them.
<godbyk> And then we have to wait even longer for them to finish fiddling with the UI so we can take screenshots.
<godbyk> With this one, they say the *goal* is to have everything ready by 25 March.
<godbyk> Whether it'll actually be ready by then is anyone's guess.
<godbyk> I'll be back in a bit.
<CarstenG> Hannie: To your first question. Yes, it would be nice, if you could test the script.
<hannie> CarstenG, ok I will test and let you know the results
<CarstenG> Gret :-)
<CarstenG> Great. :-)
<hannie> ....and, I have some rewriting for Nautilus to do
<CarstenG> my script has lower priority, so don't feel constrained to test it.
<hannie> oh, no, I am reading the script email right now
<hannie> I will use 12.04, which is fully translated
<hannie> CarstenG, I do not see any \input{} command in ubuntu-manual.tex. I do see \include{frontmatter/copyright} etc.
<hannie> You write: Move any \input command after the \begin{document}, e.g. the
<hannie> \input{frontmatter/glossary-entries}.
<hannie> oops, I was wrong (didn't wear my glasses :))
<CarstenG> mmmh, in my ubuntu-manual.tex from precise-e2 I have a \input{}
<CarstenG> :-D
<hannie> And of course I should use find
<godbyk> I'm back now.
<hannie> CarstenG, one remark though: the \input is not after, but BEFORE the \begin{document} command. But the replacement should be AFTER the \begin{document} I suppose.
<CarstenG> Yes, you are right.
<hannie> oki, I am going to test it now.
<hannie> CarstenG, executing ./update_po_files_with_LP_links.sh en.po > output = "grep: en.po : file or folder does not exist.
<hannie> Should I use nl.po instead of en.po?
<CarstenG> sure
<CarstenG> this was only as example :-)
<hannie> ah, I am a dummy ;)
<CarstenG> I should mention it :-)
<hannie> I have back-uped nl.po, just in case
<CarstenG> good.
<CarstenG> The script will also create a backup called "nl.po-backup"
<hannie> yes, I read that. Good precaution
<hannie> Ha, it works!
<hannie> All index enties in nl.po > should be "entries"?
<CarstenG> yes.
<hannie> Go out of the /po directory and do a
<hannie>   $ make ubuntu-manual-en.pdf > not from the /po, but from /Projects/precise-e2 (in my case anyhow)
<hannie> sorry, it was ok
<CarstenG> yes, this I mean with "go out of the /po directory"
<hannie> glasses, Hannie, wear your glasses ):
<CarstenG> means "cd .."
<hannie> CarstenG, the links are ok, but some of them show on top of the text
<hannie> [îîîî]Een gebruiker aanpassen
<hannie> [îîîî]Klik op een naam
<CarstenG> Yes, this is because I write the links "to the left"... They should not influence the layout...
<hannie> Most of the links show "to the left", but others show over the existing text in the pdf
<CarstenG> Well, the links do not know, if there is some other text...
<hannie> Also, over bullets, instead of to the left of bullets
<CarstenG> one moment, I test something
<hannie> I see the same in the German example. But as a whole it is a pretty piece of work. Well done!
<CarstenG> Thanks.
<hannie> It really works! I will surely use it for the next Dutch translation.
<CarstenG> You should keep in mind, that this is for proofreading, not for printing the document :-)
<hannie> CarstenG, I was just a bit picky. It is (almost) perfect ;)
<CarstenG> picky comments are always welcome, Iâm also picky.
<CarstenG> sometimes :-)
<hannie> I think you can consider it ready for use.
<hannie> For stupid readers like me, the instructions can do with a bit of clarifying.
<CarstenG> Ok, I will keep it in mind for an update. :-)
<hannie> e.g.: Go out of the /po directory and do a
<hannie>   $ make ubuntu-manual-en.pdf
<hannie> > en = your own language
<hannie> And thanks for the work you did. See you.
<CarstenG> If you want you can remove the optional arguments Â»[0cm][r]Â«of \makebox in the \newcommand ...
<CarstenG> ... then you will get no links over the other text...
