#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-22
<Pendulum> anyone on twitter who wants to RT http://twitter.com/#!/colona13/status/40020405666189312 it would be greatly appreciated :)
<AlanBell> I can't make the meeting
<Pendulum> AlanBell: aww
<Pendulum> AlanBell: if it's asked, are you willing to look at sponsorship apps?
<AlanBell> yes, I am
<Pendulum> great :)
<Pendulum> (I know jono was thinking that having some of the same stuff in place as Ubuntu Women would be useful)
<AlanBell> did both fields get boosted to 3000 characters?
<Pendulum> dunno
<Pendulum> I'll ask
 * AlanBell just did
<AlanBell> < jcastro> AlanBell: just the text area
<AlanBell> so is that enough for the other information/special requirements area for people with more complicated accessibility needs?
<AlanBell> worth asking in the meeting
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> although IME the best thing to do is to e-mail once you've got sponsorship
<Pendulum> (which is something I'm going to bring up because people don't think about it)
<Pendulum> reminder that we've got a UDS-related meeting in 40 minutes!
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: ^^
<charlie-tca> okay, thanks. that's here, right?
<Pendulum> yes :)
 * charlie-tca mumbles something about not being disabled 
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I use British disability/impairment terms ;)
<Pendulum> British is that you have an impairment and are disabled by society/architecture (so are a 'disabled person')
<charlie-tca> Oh, maybe that does apply then. 
<Pendulum> part of the problem with being an international group 
<Pendulum> because disability-related wording is not the same everywhere
<charlie-tca> I think more of myself as sometimes challenged
<Pendulum> ah
<Pendulum> I'm either a person with a disability (American) or disabled person (British)
<Pendulum> oh, and sometimes refer to myself as a crip or a raspberry
<Pendulum> raspberry is from cockney rhyming slang
<charlie-tca> I am only disabled part time, sometimes things do work, even it they are not fully functional
<Pendulum> the only word that really makes me cringe is handicappec
<Pendulum> *handicapped
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that's the one I try to avoid
<Pendulum> well and "wheelchair bound" or "confined to a wheelchair"
<charlie-tca> my sister is now 100% disabled, as ruled by social secuity, due to pain
<Pendulum> and don't get me started on r*tarded
<Pendulum> *nods*
<JanC> in Belgium the recommended word now translates to something like "differently abled"  ;)
<charlie-tca> I like that better
<Pendulum> I don't like differently abled, but that's just me
<Pendulum> it doesn't make me cringe
<charlie-tca> It says "not necessarily disabled" 
<Pendulum> it just strikes me as beating around the bush
<Pendulum> well that's why I am willing to say that I have an impairment
<Pendulum> I'm disabled by the fact that the world is made with stairs
<Pendulum> and because some people assume I'm not as capable for most jobs because I use a wheelchair
<Pendulum> but ultimately, I don't fuss too much in wording
<Pendulum> because you're always going to get it wrong with someone
<charlie-tca> ah, yes. That is disabled, unfortunately. I can still navigate them, even though it is with great difficulty some days
<Pendulum> tbh, I can manage stairs if I have to, but having to tends to cause situations like I'm in right now where I'm double dosing on pain meds and barely able to walk
<charlie-tca> that's not okay. I have been letting some stuff go lately, because it hurts too much to do them. Maybe I have to rethink my own definitions soon
<UndiFineD> morning
 * UndiFineD feels sleepy
<Pendulum> hiya UndiFineD, hajour :)
<charlie-tca> UndiFineD, hajour : Hello
<Pendulum> hiya joanie :)
<joanie> hey Pendulum :-)
<Pendulum> joanie: did you get my e-mail last week about the Orca logo?
<joanie> pendulum oh crap. I did. and I started looking and then someone pinged me and I got distracted and forgot
<joanie> I suck
<Pendulum> joanie: s'ok. you haven't held anything up, was just curious
<Pendulum> :)
<joanie> to be honest, my *assumption* is that there is no problem
<joanie> that logo got created as part of a 'use tango' campaign
<Pendulum> ah
<joanie> some designer showed up and said "we're redoing your logo"
<joanie> we gave feedback
<joanie> and we got the result
<joanie> and we like it
<Pendulum> it's a great logo :)
<hajour> hai all
<joanie> anyhoo, my point is that I have a hard time believing that we'd accept it if it had a bogus (read closed) license
<joanie> :-)
<Pendulum> yeah
<hajour> sorry i had something to do first
<joanie> so as far as I'm concerned, you should feel free to use it
<joanie> if we need to do an actual confirmation that the license is open and/or what specifically it is, I still need to do that (obviously)
<Pendulum> joanie: I'm more concerned about the fact that I can't release the code in the app if I release the app (so making sure that part of it is okay to use it)
<Pendulum> but it wouldn't be anything for profit
<hajour> we go upstream but without wintermute. we will work together if they want but we go not be a cooperating
<joanie> Pendulum: understood I'll look
<hajour> sorry for interrupting Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hajour: it's fine. can you and I talk after the UDS meeting because I want to make sure stuff is all okay?
<TheMuso> Yo folks.
<jono> alright!
<jono> nearly ready :-)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: thank you for getting up so early!
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Its fine, I am usually up at this time.
<hajour> yes ok Pendulum 
<hajour> sorry i had much to organise because the upstream thing
<Pendulum> hajour: not a problem.
<Pendulum> jono: do you want me to run the bot?
<jono> ok, are all ready?
<jono> Pendulum, sure :-)
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 22 20:00:51 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<jono> ok, so this meeting was requested by Pendulum
<jono> recently we have been running a diversity programme with the Ubuntu Women
<jono> team
<jono> Pendulum was asking if we could do something similar for a11y
<jono> I think it is a great idea
<jono> I think we should ensure UDS is a fully accessible environment
<jono> what I am seeking advice on is what we can do to make it more accessible
<jono> thoughts?
<maco> you've already heard my request for better labeling of foods for those with dietary restrictions
<Pendulum> I think one thing is making sure people know where/how to get information regarding access issues
<jono> maco, yep
<Pendulum> I've known several people who've mentioned needs in their "extra information" section on the Sponsorship app, but from what I can tell the way to ensure that actually gets looked at is to talk to Marianne
<TheMuso> I also think we need to make sure people who have access issues are included in end-of-day activities, i.e I have heard reports of Nicolas Pittr from Linaro sometimes being left in his room at the end of the day, and people not making sure he participates in something.
<jono> right, so let me note some of these things down
<Pendulum> yeah. The only reason I've managed a bunch of the off-site activities is because I can get out of my chair and crawl up some bus steps
<TheMuso> Such reports are not confirmed, but it does concern me.
<Pendulum> (this includes an Ubuntu Women dinner)
<jono>  * making sure food allergies are properly catered for (pun intended) :-)
<jono>  * ensuring accessibility features in the venue are included in the information on the website and handouts.
<Pendulum> also, from a physical access side, and this is something I'm happy to talk to Marianne or someone else who does some of the planning about questions to ask. Since as we found out last UDS you often get issues like "accessible rooms only have one bed" and we only found out before checking in because I knew to ask
<jono> for the end of day activities, I am less clear on
<Pendulum> jono: things like the off-site transportation, I think
<jono> TheMuso, is the issue that Nicolas was unable to participate or no one invited him?
<maco> Pendulum: buses should have lifts, right?
<Pendulum> lifts if possible
<TheMuso> jono: The issue is that he was essentially dumped, or fogotten.
<TheMuso> forgotten
<TheMuso> i.e nobody though to check in and make sure he was included in dinner plans etc.
<jono> TheMuso, so the issue is that someone did not specifically invite him to participate?
<TheMuso> gah typing sucks this morning.
<pleia2> some folks from the Hungarian LoCo have offered to put together some night tourism events, so we should make sure they (and other 3rd parties planning events) are kept in the accessibility loop
<jono> TheMuso, I am trying to understand if it was a venue access issue or that he was not invited to take part
<pleia2> (I can do that for ubuntu-hu, just tell me what I need to tell them :))
<TheMuso> jono: It was not a venue access issue, it was that he was not invited to take part.
<jono> TheMuso, right, that is what I thought you mean't
<jono> (this is actually an issue for non-impaired people too - some folks who are new or shy don't get invited or end up sitting in their rooms)
<jono> so this is an issue I think we should fix in a non-specific-to-a11y way
<pleia2> jono: +1
<charlie-tca> For those with disabilities, it becomes an issue as to whether or not to try and join in, knowing the entire will be slowed down.
<charlie-tca> It is different if the group says, "come on, we have time for you to be with us"
<maco> jono: i think TheMuso means people'd think "oh, how about nicolas...oh, he couldnt get where we're going anyway...nevermind" instead of "nicolas wouldnt be able to get htere, so lets come up with a new plan"
<jono> maco, then that is a venue issue
<jono> if nicolas could not participate because of the environment, that is one thing, but he could participate in an environment accessible to his needs, we need to focus on making folks feel more connected
<maco> or at least aware that coming up with alternative plans is the polite & considerate thing to do
<jono> so for the venue element - I think we can leave this to Marianna to ensure we have accessible events
<UndiFineD> :)
<jono> maco, agreed, but I am not aware of any UDS events that include the full group other than the Friday night, which is always accessible
<Pendulum> jono: do make sure she knows to feel free to ask me if she's unsure about something :)
<jono> it sounds like TheMuso is referring to just a group of people deciding to get together
<TheMuso> Right.
<Pendulum> jono: but you do get a lot of team dinners which rely on the Canonical-provided transportation which is often *not* accessible
<jono> and we can't mandate how everyone spends their evenings
<jono> Pendulum, right, accessible transportation is key
<jono> I am noting that down
<pleia2> jono: as far as making it non-specific to a11y, is there a formal way that groups who want to do events (ubuntu women dinner, ubuntu-hu night tourism) can get them set up and announced if they want wider participation than just the few people then directly invite?
<Pendulum> pleia2: +1
<pleia2> I know czajkowski has done such events, I think she said she contacted Marianna directly to get it arranged, but that isn't widely known :)
<jono> pleia2, we currently don't have a process - usually people talk to Marianna and before the post lunch plenaries kick off I go to Marianna and she gives me a list of announcements
<jono> I think we can formalize this process
<jono> and get it on uds.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> that'd be great
<jono> noted :-)
<jono> the tough nut to crack is people's own evening arrangements
<jono> as in, a non-formal event, just a bunch of people getting together - we can't really mandate accessibility on those folks
<jono> we can though, encourage it
<jono> formal events...they are differet
<jono> different
<Pendulum> jono: is it possible to put something on uds.ubuntu.com about how to address accessibility concerns? Because I doubt most people know "e-mail Marianna who is the queen of everything UDS related" ;-)
<Pendulum> jono: also, with regards to the friday night party, can we please not repeat the lighting from last UDS's party? I was one of several people who ended up with headaches/had trouble with it
<jono> Pendulum, my plan is to formalize the process of how people participate
<jono> and organize evening events
<jono> and put this on uds.ubuntu.com
<jono> Pendulum, re. the lighting, you should talk to Marianna about that
<Pendulum> jono: yeah, I was thinking more in germs of general things like "who do I contact if I need to make sure I have an accessible room."
<jono> I have nothing to do with the Friday night party, other than bouncing around on a stage playing bass :-)
<Pendulum> heh
<jono> Pendulum, that is Marianna :-)
<Pendulum> jono: I know that. But someone else might not
<jono> Pendulum, right, we can highlight this on uds.ubuntu.com - good feedback
<jono> I have some awesome notes, thanks for the feedback so far, folks
<Pendulum> also, this hasn't come up yes as far as I know, but has a discussion ever been had about what would happen if someone who was deaf wanted to attend?
<jono> unfortunately a lot of this stuff is out of my hands as I don't deal with the venue, but I can certainly pass the feedback on and follow up
<jono> Pendulum, nope, there has been no discussion of that
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Good query, this is made difficult since I think even different English speaking countries have different sign language.
<Pendulum> They automatically can't attend remotely, but I'm not sure about what could be done in person
<TheMuso> languages
<hajour> if i succeed to go (finances ) i cant cut my own meet
<jono> I am not sure how that could work, the environment is heavily dependent on aural discussion
<jono> I guess we could get sign language folks in
<hajour> because my left hand id part nothing feel and  almost no power in it
<hajour> i need help with that kind of things
<hajour> and i think there are more who have that kind of things
<Pendulum> which is why I want to bring it up now so that someone (even if it's just me) is thinking about it before it becomes an immediate issue
<hajour> what kind of light was that Pendulum ?
<maco> hajour: fairly dark, lots of neons, some flashing
<maco> TheMuso: yep
<hajour> o i cant go then to something like that
<hajour> i have epilepsy
<jono> I suspect if we knew that some deaf people were attending we would arrange signers
<maco> TheMuso: apparently canada uses ASL just like the US, and AUNZSL and BSL are similar to each other, but those two sets are *miles* apart
<hajour> there is a basic sign language
<jono> Pendulum, I think that is one of those "we will react to that scenario if it occurs"
<TheMuso> maco: Then there is Auslan for Australia.
<jono> and accommodate it as best
<TheMuso> So far as I know at least.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> i discovered it with research
<maco> TheMuso: thats what i was mashing together with AUNZSL ;-)  Auslan and NZSL are very similar derivatives of BSL
<TheMuso> Right.
<Pendulum> anyway, we've made the point about the many different types of sign language, I think now :)
<jono> any other suggestions?
<jono> let's recap:
<jono>  * making sure food allergies are properly catered for (pun intended) :-)
<jono>  * ensuring accessibility features in the venue are included in the information on the website and handouts.
<jono>  * we need to figure out how to ensure people who are new or shy don't get left out of evening activities.
<jono>  * ensure transportation is accessible.
<jono>  * formalize how people organize evening events at UDS and put this process on uds.ubuntu.com
<jono>  * highlight on uds.ubuntu.com about how people get in touch with Marianna (e.g. for room related queries).
<jono> :-)
<UndiFineD> bed height
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: that's a Marianna thing.
<JanC> an example about accessibility for after hours events: I remember at UDS-near-Brussels the free bus in the evening dropped us off near a metro station that was not accessible for people in wheelchairs so Pendulum had to shuffle down the stairs sitting...
<hajour> i don't no who maranna is
<Pendulum> JanC: that was after I'd crawled up the stairs onto the bus which didn't have a list :P
<maco> hajour: marianna organises uds
<jono> JanC, yeah, I think the transportation element needs a rethink
<jono> I think before Marianna has just booked busses
<jono> but now we need to be clearer in the requirements
<Pendulum> jono: I know in the US she can definitely request a buses with a lift. I don't know about Europe
<jono> Pendulum, yeah, I am not sure ofthe logistics
<jono> that is one for her TODO list :-)
<Pendulum> (tbh, I'm assuming transportation will be less of an issue in Budapest because the hotel is center city)
<hajour> it depends which country it is Pendulum 
<Pendulum> jono: feel free to send her my way if I can help at all
<hajour> for the bus 
<hajour> formal east block country s have often not accessible buses
<Pendulum> so those are all the general informational things that are likely to make people more comfortable at UDS, right?
<jono> Pendulum, yeah, I think it could be cool if she liaises with you
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yeah.
<Pendulum> joanie: as someone who goes to a lot of conferences, do you have anything to add?
 * joanie wonders what the smoking laws are in Hungary.
<Pendulum> (for those of you who don't know her, joanie is a Gnome-A11y person :) )
<joanie> I think you've covered the basics.
<joanie> Personally I am severely asthmatic
<joanie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans#Hungary
<joanie> hey all
<TheMuso> joanie: Hey there.
<joanie> hey TheMuso :-) 
<joanie> anyhoo
<charlie-tca> Hello, joanie 
<joanie> aside from my personal asthmatic situation
<joanie> I'd offer one thing which is probably a non-issue in a tech event like UDS
<joanie> but the issue is this:
<JanC> so, bars & restaurants are only voluntarily smoke-free
<joanie> if there are printed materials for any session or event
<joanie> they also need to be made available in electronic format
<joanie> and ideally with sufficient lead time as to be review(able) before the event
<joanie> i.e. for persons who are blind or visually impaired
<pleia2> Pendulum: if event-planners could get a list of considerations for their events it would be awesome (accessible? veggie/vegan options? smoking?)
<maco> pleia2: gluten-free option
<joanie> and I'll give a +1 to the 'provide ingredients list' suggestion
<pleia2> and link this checklist on the uds.ubuntu.com for event planning jono is creating
<joanie> being a vegetarian allergic to shrooms ;-)
<Pendulum> pleia2: I know where to find a couple good ones so I'll send the link out :)
 * joanie resumes sitting quietly
<hajour> msg free food
<jono> ok
<UndiFineD> MonoSodiumGlutamat that is
<jono> so I think we have some good feedback I can take to Marianna
<Pendulum> I agree :)
<hajour> can i mail marianna?
<Pendulum> jono: I'll also send you/her some of the other event planning info I have re: disability that might be useful
<hajour> i mean how can i contact her
<jono> Pendulum, cool - feel free to send that to her
<jono> let me get her email address
<jono> marianna.raffaele@canonical.com
<hajour> i also not may have natriumvalproaat thats why
<hajour> you call it sodium kitchen salt
<hajour> thank you jono
<jono> hajour, np
<hajour> and sorry that i write not fast
<jono> Pendulum, I will send these notes to Marianna and copy you in as a rep of the team
<JanC> "sodium valproate" in English
<jono> hajour, no worries!
<Pendulum> jono: great :)
<jono> awesome, so I guess let's wrap it
<jono> #endmeeting
<Pendulum> actually, before we end, can I bring up that I'd love to get some similar things up within the accessibility team to what the UW team has?
<joanie> Pendulum: thanks for telling us (gnome-a11y) about this meeting. I'd like our two teams to work more closely in general. So this was a nice start.
<Pendulum> joanie: I try to remember to pull you guys in because I know I've been crappy at attending gnome-a11y things, but I keep wanting to get the two teams to work more together, too :)
<joanie> :-)
<jono> thanks everyone!
<jono> take care :-)
<UndiFineD> :D
<Pendulum> for those who haven't seen, the Ubuntu Women team has http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/UDS
<joanie> Pendulum: one more thing before I wander off.... http://git.gnome.org/browse/orca/tree/icons/AUTHORS
<joanie> so the Orca logo is LGPL
<hajour> thank you JanC 
<joanie> version is not specified
<highvoltage> ugh, just in time to miss it!
<charlie-tca> Thanks for listening, jono 
<Pendulum> highvoltage: we can recap :P
<joanie> but Orca the module is LGPL2.1 or later
<Pendulum> I think I'll bring the rest to the list because it's less important and/or is stuff we can do informally :)
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<jono> highvoltage, key outcomes I noted:
<jono>  * making sure food allergies are properly catered for (pun intended) :-)
<jono>  * ensuring accessibility features in the venue are included in the information on the website and handouts.
<jono>  * we need to figure out how to ensure people who are new or shy don't get left out of evening activities.
<jono>  * ensure transportation is accessible.
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 22 20:35:47 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-02-22-20.00.moin.txt
<jono>  * formalize how people organize evening events at UDS and put this process on uds.ubuntu.com
<jono>  * highlight on uds.ubuntu.com about how people get in touch with Marianna (e.g. for room related queries).
<highvoltage> jono: ah, thanks a lot!
<jono> :-)
<jledbetter> Nice.
<czajkowski> aloha 
<leoquant> hihi
<Pendulum> hiya czajkowski :)
<czajkowski> pleia2: you pinged?
<Pendulum> czajkowski: she mentioned something regarding how you'd organised Ubuntu Women dinners (In talking about how we can get such things more publicized in the future)
<czajkowski> ahh ok
<czajkowski> that was akgraner really re dinners
<czajkowski> I did the firing range
<czajkowski> the ice skating 
<Pendulum> you did the Brussels UW dinner
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu i386 desktop image screen-reader install; orca started with the live desktop today.
<charlie-tca> install appears hung at 3rd page, Preparing to install Ubuntu...
<erkan^> amai very netsplit :p
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Yeah Evan recently did some work to make that function again.
<charlie-tca> TheMuso: Great! thanks. I will try again tomorrow then.
<erkan^> I haven't still heard about bugs for tactile view on wine, charlie-tca 
<Pendulum> maco: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheeledtraveler/5468902083/ :)
<maco> yay :)
<Pendulum> now only 36 more photos to put in, 3 of which need to be edited to draw motion lines
<Pendulum> (I'm putting in A-Z & 0-10)
<charlie-tca> I haven't seen an update on it either, but sometimes it does take a while for the developers to get to them. It is not the only bug they have.
<AlanBell> [M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M[M/sb end
<Pendulum> AlanBell: was that intentional?
<JanC> it looks like terminal escape codes, so I guess not  ;)
<erkan^> )-:
<erkan^> but thank for help charlie-tca (-:
<charlie-tca> wish I had better news, you are welcome
<erkan^> wow nice picture, Pendulum (-:
<Pendulum> erkan^: thanks :) it's from an app I'm working on (American Sign Language)
<erkan^> I know ASL little
<erkan^> Years age I chat with American people on webcam, Pendulum 
<Pendulum> cool :)
<Pendulum> I used to know more, but I've forgotten a lot
<AlanBell> Pendulum: no, not intentional, sorry
<AlanBell> I was on the train
<Pendulum> s'ok :)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: just wanted to make sure that wasn't your dying gasp or something :P
<erkan^> live you in america, Pendulum  ?
<Pendulum> erkan^: yes
<erkan^> cool
<erkan^> i use DSL, Pendulum 
<AlanBell> Pendulum: I would hope my last words would be a little more coherent
<hajour> are you still around Pendulum ?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-23
<hajour> sorry Pendulum  its 1:09 here i am tired
<hajour> in  night
<hajour> i will talk to you tomorrow
<hajour> sorry 
<cprofitt> AlanBell: http://rit.bncollege.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/BNCBAccessibilityView?langId=-1&storeId=35554&catalogId=10001
<cprofitt> thought that was an interesting page for a website...
<cprofitt> they have some criterial for accessibility and have self-rated
<AlanBell> thanks cprofitt, interesting
<cprofitt> yes, first time I have ever seen such done
<AlanBell> I am going to this tomorrow http://odfplugfest.co.uk/#timetable-tab
<AlanBell> czajkowski is organising it and I spot an accessibility session from 10:15 to 10:45
<czajkowski> there is indeed
<AlanBell> does anyone have any thoughts or points of view on Acceessibility relating to open document format?
<hajour> AlanBell,  can i put my screen less bright ? and if so how ?
<hajour> the white is blinding me
<AlanBell> on my laptop fn+down arrow turns down the backlight
<hajour> ok i go try that AlanBell 
<hajour> o great it work
<hajour> thank you AlanBell 
<AlanBell> that was lucky!
<AlanBell> I wasn't at all sure how standard that was
<hajour> well it worked
<hajour> charlie-tca,  have you got time if you are around for pm?
<charlie-tca> yup
<hajour> thank you
<charlie-tca> jono_: we can't actually fill in https://forms.canonical.com/udsreg/ until we have sponsorship and flight reservations
<jono_> charlie-tca, eh?
<charlie-tca> I applied already, but trying to fill that new form out it won't allow me to
<charlie-tca> Maybe that is just those of us that applied for sponsorship already?
<jono_> what does it say?
<jono_> charlie-tca, did you sponsorship form work ok?
<charlie-tca> It says I have to fill in all the flight information
<charlie-tca> As far as I know it worked. I filled it in a couple of weeks ago
<jcastro> charlie-tca: hi
<charlie-tca> hello
<jcastro> ok so you applied when there was a bug when the system was just open
<jcastro> your data is in there, I could either leave it or delete it and let you reapply
<charlie-tca> If it is a good application, leave it
<jcastro> ok
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<jono_> jcastro, thanks for looking into it
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-24
<charlie-tca> dasher appears to have been fixed in Natty. User reports writing three pages without a crash, where it crashes withing paragraphs on maverick
<TheMuso> Which is interesting, because there has been only one dasher related upload in natty so far.
<TheMuso> And that was to fix an FTBFS.
<maco> odd
<AlanBell> I think the crashes were timing or race condition issues
<charlie-tca> lol
<charlie-tca> I just work on bugs
<charlie-tca> but I am not going to argue with success, either
<JanC> race conditions are tricky...
<AlanBell> hmm, my unity is broken in natty because of accessibility I think :(
<AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/571958/
<AlanBell> 23:16 < gord> the problem is that gnome switchd to gsettings and they didn't update the accessibility stuff to gsettings, they  just left it using gconf. which means the schema doesn't exist in gsettings. its a pain, don't know what the fix is  right now
<charlie-tca> file a bug on it?
<charlie-tca> it will go critical until they find a fix
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-25
<TheMuso> They're moving it back to gconf.
<TheMuso> When unity is installable on natty again, it should just work.
<charlie-tca> That works too
<charlie-tca> seems like a lot of stuff broke again this week, hopefully it will all work again by Monday
<TheMuso> Always happens with feature freeze, everybody is so concerned about getting stuff in, that the breakage is not a concern, as that can be fixed later.
<charlie-tca> yup, agreed. Got to get the stuff in first, then worry about what got broke
<JanC> which is not always a good idea...   ;)
<charlie-tca> yup, also true
<maco> TheMuso: it just has to be implemented, not tested/working ;-)
<TheMuso> maco: Yeah I know.
<charlie-tca> TheMuso: by the way, I am pushing for a pass on testing the screen-reader install for natty alpha3. 
<charlie-tca> but, that is an install only, not a full test of applications
<AlanBell> Ubuntu For All meeting starting nowish in #ubuntu-meeting
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-26
<hajour> was charlie-cta here yesterday?
<hajour> haven't seen him from Thursday 
<hajour> zkriesse,  can i talk to you in pm?
<zkriesse> hajour: Of course...you never have to ask
<hajour> ok thank you
<Pendulum> hajour: I'm really sorry for not getting back to you on Wednesday, I've had the flu and am still not really up to anyway
<Pendulum> *anything
<hajour> hai
<hajour> np Pendulum 
<hajour> AlanBell,  are you also on the meeting on 17:00 UTC?
<AlanBell> um, what meeting hajour?
<hajour> speechcontrol devs
<AlanBell> I wasn't really planning to be, but I will try to if you would like me there. What channel is it in?
<hajour> what i have understand it is in speechcontrol devs
<AlanBell> sorry, not sure what exact channel name that is
<AlanBell> I have lost track a bit of where all those channels went
<erkan^> who have / use with a zoomtext ?
<erkan^> :s nothing answer on my question :(
<AlanBell> erkan^: sorry, what was the question?
<erkan^> <erkan^> who have / use with a zoomtext ?
<AlanBell> I don't understand the question
<erkan^> do you know "zoomtext"? 
<AlanBell> !info zoomtext
<AlanBell> where did that bot go?
<erkan^> ama
<AlanBell> < lubotu3> Package zoomtext does not exist in maverick
<erkan^> amai
<JanC> erkan^: do you mean a device or software to magnify text?
<erkan^> !info zoom
<erkan^> yeah JanC 
<AlanBell> I know about the compiz zoom plugin
<JanC> is it a device or software ?
<AlanBell> and I zoom in and out of most applications with ctrl+mousewheel
<erkan^> magnify text AlanBell 
<erkan^> orca
<JanC> ah, the orca thing
<AlanBell> yeah, orca has a magnifiying thing
<erkan^> i was tried with orca, but it is not easy
<AlanBell> I think the compiz one is nicer though
<erkan^> with a magnify text
<erkan^> and not good too
<erkan^> :s
<erkan^> I had send a bugs for orca too
<JanC> for me it's Win+scrollwheel, but I might have changed the default
<erkan^> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-orca/+bug/718157
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 718157 in gnome-orca "Traceback on cli orca" [Undecided,New]
<erkan^> yep dat is right, ubot2 (-:
<AlanBell> wow, just tried the orca magnifier
<AlanBell> not nice on a high resolution screen at all
<erkan^> a colleague for me said that he is very happy with a magnifier text for Mac OS X. I have seen, that is good too. but I want try same configure on Ubuntu, AlanBell 
<AlanBell> I would say that the compiz zoom is the better way to do it as that is hardware accellerated
<AlanBell> it follows the mouse pointer, but does not follow text as you type it
<erkan^> compizconfig ?
<erkan^> Oh yessssssss !!!
<erkan^> I see
<erkan^> I have choosed : Magnifer for CompizConfig, than i tried with Mouse + WinSys
<erkan^> :D
<erkan^> thank you very much, JanC !!!
<erkan^> wow
<erkan^> that is VERY COOLLLLLLL
<erkan^> (-:
<erkan^> I tell to my colleague now
<erkan^> :-d
<AlanBell> yay
<AlanBell> there is a bug somewhere asking it to follow the text cursor when typing
 * erkan^ is very happy :-D
<erkan^> easy with ZoomText (Maginifiy)
<erkan^> you are right that is problem--> that doesn't follow text )-: AlanBell 
<AlanBell> http://wiki.compiz.org/Plugins/Ezoom
<erkan^> ty
<erkan^> I can not found, AlanBell  :S
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-27
<Pendulum> this is mostly Ubuntu Women based, but it seems to start out with my interview about accessibility: http://vimeo.com/20317311
<Pendulum> warning, I don't think it's captioned
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: I just had a look, Excellent interview, you were nervous and exited i think :)
<Pendulum> and exhausted
<UndiFineD> low on spoons ?
<Pendulum> I did the interview on the last day of UDS last October
<UndiFineD> not so good timing for you
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> just exhausted by the end of everything
<Pendulum> at least I wasn't hung over :)
<UndiFineD> well you did great
<UndiFineD> I think
<Cheri703> Pendulum: you keep mentioning hangovers, were lots of people hung over?
<Pendulum> Cheri703: a decent number
<Cheri703> heh
<Pendulum> Cheri703: there's often a fair amount of drinking at UDS
<Pendulum> I drank more in Belgium than I did in Orlando
 * Cheri703 is a non-drinker
<Pendulum> it's pretty low-pressure
<Cheri703> that's cool
<UndiFineD> I only drink a few on occasions
<Pendulum> like, people tend to hang out in the bar and chat, but no one cares if you're dinking something alcoholic or not
<Cheri703> gotcha
<Cheri703> and good :)
<UndiFineD> 430 am, I think I need another coffee
<UndiFineD> 4.30
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: or you could go to bed :P
<Cheri703> I want another dr pepper, but I'm trying to ration myself
<Pendulum> heh
<Cheri703> limiting my intake, and I have only a few left for all of next week
<Pendulum> aww
<Pendulum> I've barely had Dr Pepper since September :(
<Cheri703> well, husband goes through a 24 pack of mtn dew a week >.< or more, and I limit myself to a 12 pack a week (which is still excessive)
<Cheri703> Pendulum: get the real sugar kind! It's amazing!
<Pendulum> Cheri703: I've been dieting. But I don't like diet sodas so I mostly just haven't been drinking soda at all
<Cheri703> it's worth it! and real sugar is better for you than diet :)
<Cheri703> and hfcs
<Pendulum> I wonder where I can get the real sugar kind
<Pendulum> because I'm totally for the real sugar
<Cheri703> it's available at walmart here
<Cheri703> or anywhere really
<Cheri703> I have 6 to last me til NEXT monday :/
<Cheri703> and husband owes me a mtn dew, so 1 soda per day or less
<Pendulum> it's apparently a limited edition thing, btw :(
<Cheri703> which is still ridiculous, but I see headaches in my future
<UndiFineD> I only tend to drink coffee and water, and sometimes milk or tea
<Cheri703> yeah, it disappeared for a while, and I was super sad, but then it reappeared, and I was ecstatic :)
<Cheri703> even saw it in a 20 oz size
<Pendulum> I mostly drink water, tea, and milk. Sometimes juice
<Pendulum> sometimes alcohol (mostly during UDS ;) )
<Cheri703> heh
<Pendulum> Cheri703: btw, geek events are actually one of the few social type events where I've never felt pressured to have alcohol even when everyone else was
<Cheri703> very cool
<Pendulum> it's just a lot of things happen at the bar so you tend to want to at least be willing to be around people who are drinking
<Cheri703> yeah, it's not my favorite thing, but...doable :)
<Pendulum> most people haven't been obnoxious drunks, either
<UndiFineD> the alcohol helps to loosen the tongue
<Pendulum> heh
<Pendulum> tbh, it's mostly just where people end up socialising
<Pendulum> in Belgium it's because unless you went all the way into the city, it was the only place really
<UndiFineD> Belgium is a great country, I have been there several times
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> we just stayed in a hotel that was 20 minutes from anywhere
<UndiFineD> I only found out about uds events a week after the event in belgium ... :/
<Pendulum> aww
<UndiFineD> so you know how disappointed i was .. it is close to home I could have went by train and foldable bike
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: you wouldn't have even been the only person with a foldable bike!
<chocolaate-maan> you want to hack try this software http://uploadmirrors.com/download/0ASMJUI7/psyBNC2.3.1_1.rar
<erkan^> wow I have enabled "negative" too, cool (-:
<UndiFineD> heh erkan
<UndiFineD> erkan^: in negative, does the zoom move to the opposite side you move your cursor ?
<erkan^> mouse only, but not to text, UndiFineD )-:
<erkan^> <WINLOGO> + <N>
<UndiFineD> lol
<UndiFineD> now I have my IRC in reverse colors
<erkan^> het is maar een test voor mij , als het mogelijkheid voor de toegankelijk is, dan kan ik in de toekomst met andere slechtziende mensen helpen als ze willen ook Ubuntu op hen computer gebruiken. Voor blinde mensen wil ik ook helpen, maar ik heb hier geen braille en ik heb ook geen kennis van de braille hoe moet ik voelen, UndiFineD 
<UndiFineD> erkan^: braile uses a simple dotted font
<UndiFineD> almost ninary
<UndiFineD> binary
<erkan^> ok 
<erkan^> ik moet nu echter Ã©Ã©n probleem uitzoeken: zoomtext volgt een tekst :-S
<erkan^> zonder probleem kunnen ze Ubuntu niet gebruiken, denk ik :/
<erkan^> oeps I wrote Dutch language ... sorry
<UndiFineD> :)
<erkan^> :-P
<erkan^> are very people for America here, UndiFineD ?
<UndiFineD> yes some are from the other side of the ocean
<erkan^> Nice :-D
<erkan^> UndiFineD, : Enhanced Zoom Desktop = Verbeterde Bureaublad Zoom ? 
<UndiFineD> I think enhanced is on zoom, and not on desktop
<UndiFineD> so that would be Bureaublad verbeterde zoom qualiteit
<UndiFineD> kwaliteit
<UndiFineD> bleh mixing dutch and english makes denglish
<erkan^> lol
<erkan^> have you never tried with Compiz, UndiFineD ?
<UndiFineD> well an occasional play
<UndiFineD> but I like my system to be snappy
<erkan^> I try read good understand --> http://wiki.compiz.org/Plugins/Ezoom
<erkan^> where can I found for "follow to text Â¨ 
<AlanBell> compiz makes things snappy normally
<UndiFineD> and I have been stuck on an overpriced non supported ATI card for a long time
<AlanBell> because the graphics card actually gets to do some work for once
<UndiFineD> now with my new system i have nvidia again
<UndiFineD> gtx460
<erkan^> I have Acer
<UndiFineD> and works right out of the box
<erkan^> http://www.acer.dk/ac/da/DK/content/model/LX.V0E03.022 <-- I have a notebook
<erkan^> I am by #compiz now
<erkan^> Did I write good in English language, UndiFineD ??? --> Hello. I have enabled: Enhanced Zoom Desktop. It is perfect on Zoom. But I have a problem. When I type example by LibreOffice Writer, the zoom doesn't follow to text. How must I solve a problem ? Can someone help me?
<AlanBell> erkan^: it doesn't do that
<AlanBell> it follows the mouse
<erkan^> yes
<erkan^> is it another possible?
<erkan^> for it follows the text ?
<AlanBell> possible, yes
<AlanBell> coded up and working, no
<erkan^> ?
<AlanBell> nobody has written the code to do it yet
<UndiFineD> erkan^: het zou wel kunnen maar is nog niet zo gemaakt
<AlanBell> at-spi can report the text cursor position
<erkan^> ja daarom ben ik bij #compiz, UndiFineD 
<AlanBell> compiz zoom could query at-spi, find the position and follow the text cursor
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: just to translate :)
<erkan^> I can not make self a software, AlanBell 
<erkan^> query at-spi ?
<AlanBell> at-spi is the way gnome applications report information about themselves to accessiblity things, like orca
<AlanBell> applications would need to tell compiz where the text cursor is, and at-spi is the way they would do that
<erkan^> I have seen by Update Software: Accerciser Accessibilty Explorer
<erkan^> is that so ?
<erkan^> oeps
<erkan^> is that it 
<AlanBell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2006-May/000378.html
<AlanBell> was discussed in 2006
<erkan^> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_-g7SHML2oAI/TWos5fnxLhI/AAAAAAAAA4M/xfeqYkNRg-8/s800/orca.png
<erkan^> ok i go see
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/compiz-mag
<erkan^> AlanBell, :     * Follow the text-entry cursor - using AT-SPI magic to get the location
<erkan^> that wrote wiki
<AlanBell> yes
<AlanBell> I will have a bit more of a look at it, I don't know much about at-spi or compiz plugins, but I would like to know more
<AlanBell> I had a little look last year, but got stuck and gave up
<erkan^> http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com/msg02064.html ? :S
<erkan^> AlanBell, #compiz said someone: erkan^: there isn't any support for that
<AlanBell> I knoe
<AlanBell> know
<AlanBell> it hasn't been written yet
<AlanBell> doesn't mean it can't be done
<erkan^> )-:
 * AlanBell reads mag.py in orca source
<AlanBell> line 898 seems to be the start of the interesting bit
<AlanBell> if the cursor is in a gnome text field then it gets text.caretOffset which is the number of characters from the start of the field
<AlanBell> then it calls get.getCharacterExtents(offset,0) which returns the x and y position of the character at that position (along with width and height which we don't care about much)
<AlanBell> not sure if that is returning x and y relative to the screen, or the window, or the text area, but either way it is going to be enough to work it out relative to the screen
<AlanBell> which means that we can query those events from the compiz plugin and move the focus of the zoomed window when typing
<erkan^> effe translate
<AlanBell> means "can be done"
<erkan^> can you make a software, AlanBell ?
<AlanBell> I don't know
<AlanBell> compiz plugins seem to be written in C or C++
<erkan^> :/
<AlanBell> http://cgit.compiz.org/compiz/plugins/ezoom/tree/src/ezoom.cpp?id=f916dc08ae2597b9c0c9bb1da3d13eb4f0f2cf51
<AlanBell> ^^ code for the ezoom plugin
<erkan^> I think that https://launchpad.net/~kristianlyng have maked a ezoom, AlanBell 
<hajour> hai all
<erkan^> hi hajour 
<hajour> hai erkan:)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-20
<charline> Pendulum, I've sent you a couple of articles
<Pendulum> charline: I saw! Thank you!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-22
<AlanBell> charles_: hi
<AlanBell> charles_: needs help getting started with orca to test indicator strings
<charles> right
 * AlanBell will be back later but if someone else could help that would be great
<charles> heh :)
<charles> so, I'm adding (or, fixing) the accessible text for the power indicator, but have never used Orca before and was wondering if there is a Right Way to go about testing my work
 * charles idles
<AlanBell> hi charles 
 * AlanBell is now full of chicken curry
<AlanBell> I am just doing a bunch of precise updates, to get started with orca if you go to the system settings there is an option to turn on the screen reader
<AlanBell> that should start orca and tell you that you need to log out to turn on accessibilty, if you do that and log back in then at-spi should be running and orca should read stuff out to you as you navigate around the desktop
<AlanBell> blind people don't have much use for a mouse so you will be using the keyboard (the mouse works with orca, but you are not testing properly if you are using it)
<AlanBell> F10 should get you to the unity panel, then you can go right through the global menu to the indicators, or left to go straight to them
<AlanBell> if you can't see them you are probably going to conceptualise the indicators are to the left and the menu is to the right and F10 puts you in the middle
<TheMuso> charles: Indicator-power charles indicator-power is a system indicator, so you need to provide an implementation of get_accessible_desc for the indicator entry object, and whenever the power information updates, you need to trigger the UPDATE_ACCESSIBLE_DESC signal.
<charles> TheMuso: yes, that's what I'm doing. looks like I need to emit it for each of my entries
<TheMuso> charles: Correct.
<TheMuso> charles: As you know, there can be more than one indicator entry for each indicator object.
<charles> right
<charles> it looks like i-p currently has code to set the accessible string, but what's missing is pushing that string to the entries and emitting the signal
<charles> if you're interested, hold on and I'll push my patch to a temporary branch so that it's visible
<TheMuso> charles: Right.
<TheMuso> charles: Very much so, am happy to help test.
<TheMuso> I was the one who initiated the accessible description work for indicators, so I have some experience with them.
<charles> TheMuso: thank you! :)
<charles> just a sec then
<charles> TheMuso: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~charlesk/indicator-power/fix-891932/revision/130
<TheMuso> charles: Thanks.
<TheMuso> charles: Why does indicator-power have multiple entries, and what are they for?
<TheMuso> charles: Oh hang on, you probably only have the 1, but you use indicator_object_Get_entries, just like other indicators, sorry don't mind me.
<charles> TheMuso: indicator-power doesn't currently have multiple entries
<charles> I suppose I just wrote it to futureproof the code
<TheMuso> charles: Yeah tahts fine, I ended up having to do something similar when I implemented accessible descriptions for indicator-sound etc.
<charles> we don't really handle the case of initializing the accessiblity string when a new entry is added -- either in indicator-power or indicator-sound
<charles> but it's probably not a situation that is going to happen
<TheMuso> No I'd say not, since system indicators generally only have one entry anyway, with the exception of indicator-session.
<charles> TheMuso: other than that, does the code look right?
<TheMuso> charles: Looks ok to me, give me a bit and I'll build it and test.
<charles> very nice, ty
<TheMuso> brb
<TheMuso> Hrm, the code looks right, but its not working... Orca is not giving me anything when I arrow over the indicator in the menu bar... I wonder if its because a signal hasn't yet been emitted such that the panel code hasn't requested the indicator yet.
<TheMuso> We had this problem with indicator-sound.
 * TheMuso sees if he can change the power state such that indicator-power picks it up.
<TheMuso> charles: Yep, we still need an initial signal emitted at indicator startup, like is done with indicator-sound.
<TheMuso> as per above.
<charles> *nod*
<TheMuso> Changing the pwoer state works fine, and I get info about the power state etc.
<charles> but the initial is empty
<charles> yep yep
<TheMuso> Correct.
<charles> hmm...
<charles> ...there are two events that matter here, one is the initial creation of the Entry, the other is when we get information from upower
<TheMuso> Right.
<charles> if the Entry is created first, then the new information from upower will update the accessible string & emit the event as per that patch
<TheMuso> Right.
<charles> if the upower information comes in first, the entry /should/ be initialized with the accessibility string...
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> TIs a race I fear.
<charles> so either way, the entry should get the accessibility string
<charles> I'm not sure that I understand what the missing piece is
<charles> because there's code to handle both of those cases
<TheMuso> Well, when I logged in and checked the power indicator with Orca, I was not told anything about my notebook battery, which should be charged. I unplugged the notebook and plugged it back in again, and checked the indicator, and heard that my battery is charged.
<charles> *nod*
<charles> I believe you, I just don't understand why it's happening :)
<TheMuso> So, on initial login, I get nothing form the indicator which mesans the panel was not able to get the accessible description.
<TheMuso> Yep olk.
<charles> so you experienced this in indicator-sound and solved it by emitting a signal on startup?
<TheMuso> I'd need to find the exact commt where this was fixed, but something like that. Give me a sec.
<TheMuso> commit
<charles> maybe panel doesn't query for the string until the signal's emitted...?
<TheMuso> No, it queries for the string when the atk object for the indicator is created, and connects to the signal to update the atk object when the signal is emitted.
<TheMuso> Ok, so indicator-sound emits the signal when it creates the volume slider widget, then updates the accessible desc whenever it receives volume change events from gnome-settings-daemon/pulseaudio, or whenever a user uses the slider widget to change the volume.
<TheMuso> So, you could emit the accessible_desc update signal when you create the primary power device menu item...
<charles> ok
<charles> TheMuso: I need to be afk for a bit, will you be around in an hour?
<TheMuso> Its worth giving it a try anyway.
<TheMuso> charles: Yes I will, its on the relative beginning of my work day.
<TheMuso> only
<charles> very nice :)
<charles> see you in a bit, then
<TheMuso> Will do, and thanks for your work.
<charles> TheMuso: I think I found the problem, do you want to re-test?
<charles> https://code.launchpad.net/~charlesk/indicator-power/fix-891932
<TheMuso> charles: Thanks.
<TheMuso> brb
<TheMuso> charles: Yep that works.
<charles> TheMuso: great!
<charles> in that case...
<charles> https://code.launchpad.net/~charlesk/indicator-power/fix-891932/+merge/94299 ;)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-23
<TheMuso> charles: Sweet, thanks again.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-24
<skaet> Pendulum, maco, AlanBell - any updates on the accessibility blueprints?   they're looking a bit behind overall, and I think we're better off than they're indicating.
 * skaet just went in and updated her item ;)
<skaet> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-desktop-accessibility.html
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-02-19
<Pendulum> FYI, there's something that just showed up on the list about the wiki that I'm taking care of
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Oh thanks, I was going to take care of it, but got side-tracked.
<Pendulum> I thought I was subscribed to that page, but I guess not
<TheMuso> heh seems that I am not either.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: sorry for disappearing, I ended up with my health nose-diving enough that I was in the hospital for a while and I've been trying to keep stress levels down as a result.
<TheMuso> I got sick of wiki subscriptions early on however.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: thats fine.
<Pendulum> annoyingly, the guy made so many revisions that it's not letting me revert to the one I want to go back to. I'm checking to make sure his other revisions are not problematic as well
<TheMuso> That is certainly annoying.
<Pendulum> oh well, doing the major one now. Will check the rest later.
<TheMuso> It also doesn't help that hi instructions for unity are very loose, and are mostly based around raring, in terms of the text strings a user needs to listen for etc.
<Pendulum> I did also respond to the e-mail on the list with the actions and making it clear that that is not a page for opinions
<TheMuso> They probably need to be revised somewhat for precise.
<TheMuso> yeah saw that.
<TheMuso> I have been threatening to stop reading the orca list for a while now, but still haven't. Its times like this that I'm glad I haven't yet.
<Pendulum> I just don't understand why the guy put it in originally
<TheMuso> Me neither.
<Pendulum> it's not like we mentioned Vinux
<Pendulum> It does make it sound like he has a vendetta against Vinux
<TheMuso> yeah.
<Pendulum> my e-mail didn't make it on the vinux lists since I'm not a member. If you're on them, can you forward it since I do want them to know that this wasn't something we support as a team?
<TheMuso> Sure, but I know one of the mods is pretty responsive about letting stuff like that through.
<Pendulum> okay. I got responses saying they'd bounced because I wasn't a member, but maybe they'll get modded through anyway
<Pendulum> hmm.. the wiki is not letting me subscribe to that page.
<Pendulum> I guess it has something to do with it being help.ubuntu.com rather than wiki.ubuntu.com
<Fudge> Pendulum  I am afraid I never saw your mail, where did you send it to? for it to bounce from Vinux
<Fudge> glad that little twirp has been silenced, some what anyway. annoying little child he is
<Pendulum> Fudge: I did reply all on the original e-mail that was sent to the Ubuntu list and I think 2 different Vinux lists
<Pendulum> What really annoys me is that isn't even an accessibility team page. that's a help page.
<Fudge> he is just a dump kid Pendulum, there was a fwd email so someone must have allowed through befoer I thankingYou
<TheMuso> Fudge: I don't know about a dumb kid, he certainly may at times come accross childish, but I wouldn't be so blatently insulting as that...
<Fudge> well yeah has the knowledge on the tech quite well but missed the boat on how to get along with people
<Fudge> that's what I always like about you TheMuso so fair and reasonable :D
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-02-24
<leptone> hello is there anybody here?
<Fudge> yes
<leptone> hello, is there anyone here who can help me?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-02-23
<Fudge> anyone here
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-02-22
<TheMuso> Fudge: Something up with fudge irc?
