#ubuntu-meeting 2004-10-26
* #ubuntu-meeting  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<asw> Hi! Is there a documentation meeting today? (In a few minutes I think...) 
<hornbeck> yes you are in the right place asw
<hornbeck> I am helping the wife for a few more minutes than I will be in here
<asw> Cool...
<asw> Is there an agenda or a web-page for this meeting? 
<asw> I only saw the notice is ubuntu-users/devel... 
<hornbeck> no there is no agenda
<hornbeck> we just wanted to get some people together who has some ideas on the docs and which direction we should go with them
<hornbeck> but we will give people a few more minutes to get in here
<plovs> hi
<asw> ok. will transcripts be posted?
<asw> (I'm pretty bad at IRC so I'm happy if they are not...) 
<plovs> transcripts are good for people who couldn't make it
<hornbeck> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/DocumentationAgenda
<hornbeck> there you go
<hornbeck> I do believe that there will be transcripts
<hornbeck> mako: you really here?
<asw> transcripts are good I just hate all the spelling/grammar mistakes that are saved for posterity... =^) 
<hornbeck> well noone is perfect
<hornbeck> that is what spell check is for
<asw> I don't know how to use spell-check with irc. (I use xchat)
<hornbeck> I meant outside irc
<hornbeck> I use xchat also
<hornbeck> there will be mistakes on irc because you are typing fast and trying to keep up with conversations
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:hornbeck] : Documentation meeting Friday 15th October 2004 | Agenda on wiki.ubuntulinux.org/DocumetationAgenda
<hornbeck> well I guess others will show up
<hornbeck> a couple more about to be here
<asw> I have some particular things I'd like to work on but since I'm new I don't know what the etiquette is... 
<hornbeck> hold one sec
<plovs> will docbook be used for documentation?
<hornbeck> hold one sec
<hornbeck> other main people are on their way
<hornbeck> don't want to get in discussions and have them lost
<asw> plovs: are you Poslavsky on the wiki doc-team page?
* plovs holding his breath
<plovs> yes
<hornbeck> ok, there is about the last one I was waiting for
<enrico> Hello, and good afternoon.  Sorry for the delay, I understood it was 16.00 UTC instead of CET
<sivang> me also :)
<hornbeck> There will be a documentation meeting this friday at 1400UTC in
<hornbeck> #ubuntu-meeting on the freenode server
<hornbeck> :)
<sivang> I'd like everybody to introduce himself a bit,
<enrico> Since we're all here, we can start.  How about a round of introductions?
<sivang> Shall I start?
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> I am John Hornbeck, I worked with the Gnome doc team for awhile and have started alot of work with Ubuntu so far
<sivang> hornbeck?
<hornbeck> I live in Oklahoma
<hornbeck> is that good
<hornbeck> next?
<sivang> I'm Sivan Green, I'm from Israel. I've started the /UDP page on the wiki, with some thoughts about
<sivang> the directions of ubuntu's documentation.
<enrico> I'm Enrico Zini, Italy.  I've been working on designing a community-based approach to produce documentation
<sivang> I'm a long time Linux user, programmer and have had experience with documentation on some corporate company.
<Kamion> I'm Colin Watson, Canonical staffer, Ubuntu installer team leader, really just lurking here while doing other stuff, since I've been doing the installation manual work for warty.
<sivang> Kamion : nice to see you here :)
<asw> I'm AlexanderWait on the wiki -- http://non.fiction.org/~await -- I would like to see free software and ubuntu in particular more widely adopted in scientific applications.  I am working on a new alife project for my phd.  X3D/VRML, GNU Arch, Boinc (seti@home) are some of the technologies. I've used Linux commercially since 1993.  
<plovs> I am AlexanderPoslavsky, I'm from the Netherlands,I work as windows admin, but prefer linux :)
<hornbeck> hehe, I am a windows admin also
<sivang> anybody else?
<sivang> mako ?
<hornbeck> I guess everyone else is just watching
<hornbeck> so six of us than
<enrico> Enrico, Sivang, Hornbeck, Asw, Plovs, Kamion
<Kamion> (don't consider me part of the doc team please, as I said I'm just lurking really)
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> Doc team: Enrico, Sivang, Hornbeck, Asw, Plovs
<enrico> Goal: Total world domination
<plovs> it's a start...
<enrico> I guess we're here to discuss how to get to that
<hornbeck> yes
<sivang> yes.
<hornbeck> would you like us to discuss what we have done so far?
<asw> yes please
<enrico> hornbeck: sure!
<hornbeck> so everyone can be caught up to speed
<hornbeck> ok, I will start
<sivang> good idea, let's have an overview for what already exists.
<hornbeck> I have mainly worked on the wiki trying to get alot of it up to speed
<hornbeck> I have also worked on the start page for Warty and also working on the gnome-user-guide to go into warty
* plovs off to another meeting irl, i'll read th log and be back asap...
<hornbeck> I try to stay active on the mailing list so i get more ideas of faqs and other information that needs docs
<hornbeck> thats it for me
<enrico> asw?
<asw> I'm completely new. 
<hornbeck> sivang?
<asw> Could somebody mention JohnLevin, BenEdwards or KevinWixted (they are on the DocumentationTeam page)
<sivang> yes,
<sivang> I'd recommend everybody to take a look at the /DocumentationTeam page, see the people who are listed there to get an idea
<asw> (Also robertbrimhall)
<sivang> please see also /DocumentationArea more wiki work by interested people
<sivang> anybody correct me if I slipped away any other piece of index web, for what others have done by now.
<hornbeck> looks right to me
<enrico> As of myself, I'm less of a documentation person and more I'm more interested in user-centered design and in facilitating community creativity
<hornbeck> ok, so we know who we are now
<hornbeck> I have a few questions 
<hornbeck> enrico: Where would you like us to be as far as docs, for Hoary
<hornbeck> that is a large question I know
<enrico> That is a large question
<hornbeck> ok I will make it smaller
<sivang> Let's try and see what we can see for warty, both offline and wiki wise. We might want to concentrate on a modest milestone, and after warty to head up for the big plans for Hoary.
<hornbeck> sivang: warty is about out the door
<asw> I'm reading http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/HoaryHedgehog_2fReleaseSchedule
<hornbeck> we can do keep up docs for it, but the goal as I see it right now is Hoary
<hornbeck> enrico: a better start question would be, what areas are we looking at documenting
<enrico> sivang: yes.  It's reasonable to start some working together first, then make release-oriented plans
<asw> So there is a "seedFreeze" Nov.29 and feature freeze feb.7   when do we stop writing documentation?  I want to understand how much time we have. 
<enrico> So, ideally, there should be no documentation at all.  Programs should just work, and do what users want.
<hornbeck> asw: we are still working on docs for warty
<Kamion> you guys don't have to worry about the seed freeze very much
<hornbeck> enrico: yes
<enrico> Documentation comes in when programs are not that clear, or when the users don't know what they want
<enrico> This highlight two fields of working :)
<Kamion> the problem you'll have is that not all the documentation you'll need to write will be clear *until* feature freeze
<Kamion> but by shortly after feature freeze you'll probably want to have the guts of most of the docs and then start polishing
<hornbeck> so alot of late night before a release
<enrico> Kamion: yes.  Which brings us back to the debian categorizatin problem: how can I have a good category database without even knowing what software is in the distr?
<enrico> And, in the traditional computer-science style, what we need to do is change the nature of the problem ;)
<hornbeck> enrico: that comes back to, what all are we going to document
<hornbeck> are we going to have our own docs for everything?
<sivang> no.
<enrico> hornbeck: docs for everything?  No, please no
<enrico> That would be bad, for various things
<hornbeck> or are we going to use docs from other places and feel in the spots
<enrico>  - disrespect for all the good work that already exists
<enrico>  - lots of work to do
<hornbeck> enrico: I was just giving a example
<hornbeck> not asking to do so
<enrico>  - it would disconnect us from the rest fo the community
<pitti> Doc should handled similar to packages: keep ubuntu-specific changes, but base on upstream docs
<enrico> hornbeck: ah, ok, sorry :)
<sivang> pitti : exactly
<pitti> AFAICS you can even use the same tools (diff, etc.) for it
<hornbeck> yeah
<enrico> So, back to my original discourse, one line of working would be see what's unclear in Warty, then check if it's been either fixed in Hoary or if it needs documenting
<sivang> yes, and that would enable us to feed debian back, as our ROCK
<asw> I am interested in documenting specific subsystems (eg hardware accelerated 3D), GNU Arch for developersm, maybe TeXmacs... in general I'm interested in working on "Ubuntu for Scientists"
<enrico> Working based on what the issues are will also allow us to produce documentation which addresses what users are actually trying to do
<sivang> Ideally we should probably follow this to start up a bit:
<sivang> 1) Identify the goal our users might want to accomplish.
<enrico> I see we're having two identities here: from one side we have frenzy in the hands and we want to *write*, and from the other we are into a designing phase for the work
* sivang agrees
* hornbeck agrees also
<enrico> On these two identities, both are important, and one kills the other
<Kamion> you might find it easier to start from reviews of the existing upstream and Debian documentation and work out what needs to be added/contributed/improved
<enrico> This is a nice Hegelian dialectic
<enrico> Resolving dialectics lead to Genius, and of course Total World Domination
<sivang> 2) Investigate current works to see relevancy and suitability.
<enrico> 3) Establish channels and formats for dissemination of the documentation
<sivang> 3) See how we might carry on them, to produce ubuntu compatible education.
<sivang> oh :)
<enrico> sivang: sorry for overlapping
<sivang> sorry for taking #3
<sivang> :-)
<enrico> asw: ubuntu for scientists... noted!
<asw> I have some very basic questions about licensing too. (And yes I have strong flame-war generating opinions...) 
<asw> I have a silly IRC question. was the message "asw: ubuntuy for scientists... notes!" private? sorry for being an idiot.
<enrico> Kamion: review, yes, but starting from existing issues
<Kamion> asw: no.
<hornbeck> enrico: so let me make sure I am understanding
<hornbeck> see what existing issues there are right now.  Start with docs that will address those issues
<enrico> asw: no, I sent it into the channel: I just wanted to acknowledge your interest
<hornbeck> correct?
<asw> enrico, kamion: thanks but why is it highlighted on my xchat screen.  
<hornbeck> asw: cause it has your name on it
<enrico> hornbeck: or, given the issues, see what documentation is around and see if we need to produce something new, point to something existing, produce a short doc that points to something existing "for knowing more"
<hornbeck> enrico: Ok I understand
* enrico feel like he should present his plan to the group, for wider discussion
* enrico feels like the text he's made won't fit into a single line in IRC
<enrico> Do we have a mailing list to post things for review and have discussions?
<hornbeck> not yet
<asw> is it possible for somebody like me to work on a section of docs like "ubuntu for scientists" while keeping up with/staying out of the way of whatever the rest of you are doing? 
<enrico> I don't mind using existing mailing lists for production, but it may be useful to have one for coordination
<sivang> enrico : why don't we publish on the wiki somewhere also?
<Kamion> enrico: use ubuntu-devel@ and put [doc]  in the subject line, please
<hornbeck> enrico: please say something to mdz about our own list
<enrico> Kamion: if we fit there, ok
<Kamion> mdz already expressed an opinion on this
<Kamion> which was "use ubuntu-devel@ and put [doc]  in the subject line, please" :-)
<asw> actually I could see why coordinating with devel is a really good idea.
<asw> maybe it's not so bad if we are exposed to their traffic? 
<enrico> Kamion: ok
<Kamion> the problem with a separate list in the beginning is that it means the doc team is likely to get disconnected too much from development activity
* enrico generally agrees with mako's idea that every time one creates a new mailing list, God kills a kitten
<hornbeck> Kamion: I see the point in that
<asw> enrico: can you put your idea on a wiki page or maybe on today's meeting page?
<enrico> Kamion: won't people bother if we'll start dumping on -devel our delirious world domination plans?
* sivang feel ths same
<enrico> asw: it'll take a while for me to do the wiki formatting, though
<hornbeck> enrico: they said if we start over crowding than we can have our own
<Kamion> enrico: well, you shouldn't be getting too delirious anyway :)
<enrico> Kamion: (this is just to get a "don't worry" from you, so that we can dodge compalints)
<enrico> Kamion: Damn!  No "don't worry"! :)
<hornbeck> enrico: put it all in a mail, and I can put on the wiki today
<Kamion> enrico: we'd like to know what you're doing; in general you should be keeping discussion fairly tightly on-topic
<sivang> Kamion : does this also applies to before release tight times? :)
<hornbeck> Kamion: you guys just want to watch over us huh?
<enrico> After the meeting I'll work on publishing my plan (with hornbeck maybe) and on summarizing recent discussion with sivang
<Kamion> hornbeck: well, new teams starting up often need some supervision in most organisations
<Kamion> sivang: yes, we can cope with a bit more mail; just don't wibble :)
<hornbeck> Kamion: right, you guys like to watch
<Kamion> hornbeck: we'll split it out if it becomes an issue
* sivang suggest the "Ubuntu Documentation Team" reality TV show. 
* hornbeck would get naked in the pool all the time
<enrico> Casually, we have pictures of ubuntu people naked in the pool already :)
<hornbeck> haha
<sivang> hahahaha
<enrico> However, back to the plans, we have:
<hornbeck> yes
<enrico>  1) Some draft long-term plans
<enrico>  2) Some titles for ubuntu-specific guides (coming from the UDP wiki page mostly, I image from sivang and hornbeck)
<hornbeck> enrico: I think we should shoot for this http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml
* enrico has a look, feels we can do better
<hornbeck> enrico: they have docs for just about all issues I ever ran into for gentoo
<enrico> Then, we'll have docs to make you run in even more issues!! ;)
* sivang nods
<enrico> Well, the idea is that you should never run into an issue with Ubuntu, and we focus on showing how to do creative things
<enrico> I wouldn't mind finally taking Linux out of the troubleshooting and customization and finally into the "how to remove the red eyes to your digital camera pictures"
<Kamion> (enrico raises a good point; please don't document workarounds for problems that you should be telling us to fix instead)
<hornbeck> that would be nice
<sivang> making the illusion we have squashed all other issues, so you wind up asking, what can I do with Ubuntu today? :)
<hornbeck> enrico, Kamion: good ideas but we are not there yet
<asw> So what about licensing (GFDL?) and style guidelines?  Somebody mentioned docbook?
<enrico> asw: good question
<sivang> Yes, I have :)
<hornbeck> docbook is nice
<enrico> Kamion: are there policies about licenses for documentation?
<sivang> GFDL would be great.
<enrico> Kamion: GFDL but without invariant sessions?
<enrico> s/session/section/
<asw> I've recently inherited the "REC.GAMES.COREWAR" faq and I will need to use something for that.  It's plaintext/html at the moment... 
<enrico> Kamion: GPL altogehter?
* enrico wouldn't mind creating GPL documentation, which would be supercool
<enrico> That is, we should distribute the source form, including, for example, spreadsheets we used to generate the graphics and so on)
<asw> Frankly I have watched the folks at MIT debate over invariant sections and if ubuntu is about freedom then political speech aka invariant sections should be permitted.  It's just complicated and maybe out of scope for this meeting... 
<asw> I think Debian has made the wrong decision with respect to invariant sections. 
<enrico> I'd honestly ask upstairs (sabdfl or something like that) for that
<asw> It's one of the reasons I'm interested in ubuntu. 
<Kamion> we don't have a hard objection to the GFDL, but since we would like to send improvements back to Debian I'd strongly recommend that you avoid the GFDL and invariant sections in documentation you write.
* sivang backs enrico with GPL altogehter?
<Kamion> it'll just create unnecessary barriers
* sivang backs enrico with GPL altogehter
<asw> kamion: this is practical... 
<hornbeck> I think GPL would be nice
<Kamion> (I'm not authoritative on this, BTW, just an opinion)
<sivang> or there's even the artistic license, if we really want to get nasty :)
<enrico> Whatever the license (we can delegate decisions on that, Italian style ;) , let's talk about formats
<hornbeck> should someone hop to ubuntu-devel and ask
<Kamion> the artistic licence is ... not ideal. clarified artistic isn't too bad.
<enrico> From one side, we are probably creating some books, so docbook qualifies
<sivang> I think docbook is preferable, and we should use debian DTD.
<asw> enrico: sabdfl?
<sivang> Kamion : agreed
<enrico> From the other side, we are probably writing items into Plone
<Kamion> asw: sabdfl is Mark Shuttleworth's IRC nick
<thom> i think most debian developers would recommend avoiding the gfdl as it stands
<enrico> It would be interesting making something to drag Plone items into Docbook, should we aggregate things from Plone into a book
<enrico> And the other way round to post the aggregation into Plone
<enrico> I'm not a Plone expert yet, but I imagine this is doable
<sivang> yes, through a plugin or some hacks
<hornbeck> I have not worked with plone yet
<enrico> I also have (as you could imagine) some funky ideas about indexing, coming from my debtags experience, but I'll save these for later :)
<enrico> I feel like we should start flooding ubuntu-devel with the material we have and start discussing, however, I wanted to present three "philosophy" items that came up in a discussion with sivang
<sivang> using debiandoc would give us the minimalistic looks debian guides have, which I guess would ease debian's use of our works
<enrico> They could be a "working method" we can share
<asw> kamion: I emailed mark at hbd com but very generically.  Irc would probably have been nice to chat about this... Is the developer meeting on the 19th a good place for that? It sounds like GFDL (without invariant sections for 99% of documents is the best way to go.) 
<Kamion> sivang: you might like to look at the way the installation manual's done; the build system is still hacky but it's basically docbook
<enrico> Ok, I'll post the three points a bit later, let's stay on docbook for a moment
<asw> At least for documents I write.
<sivang> Kamion : I'll have a look.
<Kamion> asw: dunno about the 19th, that might be release-oriented, but feel free to suggest it
<asw> enrico: one reason I'
<Kamion> asw: I really recommend against even GFDL without invariant sections if you want to have a hope of contributing anything back to Debian.
<enrico> About docbook, one good thing is that you can delegate the look to later
<Kamion> asw: the GFDL has a number of problems besides invariant sections.
<enrico> Altough I'd like to see OpenOffice.org integration with docbook getting a bit more mature
* mako waves
<enrico> (but that's because I'm a vim user, and I don't have psgml-mode in vim)
* enrico waves at mako
<mako> was sorting out an another urgent work problem
<enrico> who came in just in time to see my vim frustration wrt docbook and tease me ;)
<asw> enrico: one reason I've used plain-text is that locking yourself into one format or another seems to always cause problems for me.  (I find that much documentation doesn't get written because it would be too much of a pain to convert it into one format over another.) maybe we should not have a "fixed" standard style? 
<sivang> enrico : test emacs, it's wonderful in it
<enrico> sivang: I know
<asw> If the upstrea documentation uses tex-info use that. If it uses latex use that... 
<hornbeck> I loves me some nano
<hornbeck> asw: I don't like the idea of using multiple formats
<hornbeck> just me though
<sivang> asw : using doc book enables you to ouput different formats.
<Kamion> hornbeck: contributing changes back upstream makes dealing with multiple formats inevitable
<enrico> asw: of course if you hack on somethign upstream you respect that; however, if we produce something new, docbook can be a good default choice.  HOWEVER,
<Kamion> hornbeck: same way the distribution development team have to deal with all sorts of stuff
<enrico> if someone is confident in writing with something else, I'd like to respect that, or we're putting barriers to contrbution.
<hornbeck> Kamion: understood
<enrico> So, if someone wants to write something, but knows latex better than docbook, it's not bad to say "go on"
<hornbeck> ok
* sivang would like to see we making sure debian could use our work, however stricting this may be.
<enrico> If (s)he's interested in learning docbook later, we can offer to convert it so that (s)he can see how it works
<sivang> there's convertors from latex to docbook and vice versa also :)
* enrico loves OpenOffice.org -> DocBook
<mako> i would like to see the output from something going latex -> docbook, or either way, before i trusted it
<enrico> Also because OOo already saves in something that's soo docbook-ish
<enrico> But this is a pet technical quirk of mine
<enrico> sivang: mako's a docbook freak
<enrico> sivang: mako writes DSSSSSL: don't trust him ;)
<mako> actually, i've been writing almost entirely in restrcutred text recently
* plovs is back
<sivang> mako : my man, I didn't realize ... :))
<hornbeck> I prefer docbook also 
<mako> i find RST much cleaner, but DB is the thing that looks most like a community standard
<enrico> Cool, we have some non-normative agreement here, then
<asw> Honestly it seems more important to agree on what "final" formats we want (i.e. PDF, html) and let people use whatever they want.  Maybe somebody already has some nice writing/style guidelines we could adopt so that the -final- products were consistent. 
<plovs> sorry, to drop in, would it be possible to write documentation in the wiki and then parse it to docbook?
<sivang> plovs : see the backlog
<plovs> me reading the backlog
<asw> plovs: that's nice... 
<asw> plovs: I mean I think it's nice to draft in the wiki first.
<enrico> asw: guidelines... tricky issue
<sivang> enrico : we can stick to "standard" approches already evident on open source projects.
<enrico> asw: I think guidelines are good when they help you in making choices that you don't know much about
<mako> asw: that's fine but being able to have things in version control and being able to collaborate with people without having to learn a new a format each time is worth something
<asw> enrico: my point is that we should agree on what we consider "good enough" levels of documentation and then levels that are "ideal". 
<enrico> But they risk restricting creativity and participation in one takes them too strictly
<mako> asw: even if it means that everyone has to learn a new format once :)
<enrico> mako: Version control is very good for bigger projects, yes
<asw> would it be possible to export the wiki directly into docbook in a "nice" way?
<enrico> And I've recently discovered *meld*, which is SO COOL!
<plovs> asw: i looked today there is no moinmoin2docbook converter
<enrico> asw: it would be kind of limited, since in wikis you do lots of formatting "by hand" anyway
<enrico> While in docbook you don't do formatting at all
<sivang> we could have the docbooks compiled to XHTML, and include this server side or something by plone
<plovs> enrico: put with a good python-parser it is possible, moinmoin-raw is *very* simple
<enrico> I suggest we leave this discussion to when we see what we're about to produce/producing
<sivang> enrico : very well.
<asw> people working on GNU Arch found that the wiki helped a great deal with documentation so I think if there was a way to make the wiki more compatible with docbook that would be a very good thing [tm] 
<enrico> That is, if it's a book, we may want to print it.  If it's a short thing, we post it in Plone, or in a mailing list or newsletter
<enrico> (and so on)
* enrico conceives a wiki in which people write docbook
* sivang had envisioned the same :)
* enrico thinks that would be quite a good idea, considering the metadata you can put in docbook
<plovs> maybe we should first write documentation...
<enrico> However, that would be a little bit less wiki (in the sense of fast, unless you hook psgml-mode into mozilla)
<enrico> But we're digressing
<sivang> let's concentrate on close milestones
<asw> personally I think that documentation is a major unsolved problem is Free Software projects.  So I hope it's not too much of a digression to talk about wiki->docbook...
<hornbeck> I think I am going to have to reread this whole thing
<sivang> conept wise first, and see how we carry on the make something for HOary
<enrico> I'd like to present the three philosophy mantras, and then starting posting summaries on the maling list
* enrico rolls drums
* sivang is anxiuos.
<enrico> Mantra #1: "Do things that are technically simple, and socially complex"
<enrico> (or else, when even socially simple things happen, you'll be busy working at technically complex things)
<enrico> (and we already have lots of good developers working at the technically complex anyway)
<enrico> Mantra #2: "Cool think!  Let's put it into the TODO-list for the next-to-the-upcoming release!"
<enrico> (or else, the upcoming release we're working on right now will never happen)
<enrico> Mantra #3: "First, get to do it.  Then, document how to do it.  Then, automate it."
<enrico> (changing the order produces bad result.  Of course, one can reiterate the process multiple times)
* sivang thinks that "automate it" is going to be an exciting part.
* enrico rolls drums
* enrico suddendly stops and meditates
* enrico awakes from meditation
<enrico> sivang: I'd translate "automate" with "send a wishlist bug to the developers"
<enrico> And that's how we make feedback from the community to the developers
<sivang> ok
<enrico> Then, we're of course free to take away the "documentation" hat and wear the "developers" hat
<hornbeck> enrico: so part of our job also is to let the developers know when something is to complex
<sivang> hornbeck : and is a very important one, also.
<enrico> hornbeck: yes. Absolutely.
<sivang> so not to get all busy by docs that never need be written,
<hornbeck> enrico: I guess I was blind to that part but now it makes alot of since
<enrico> hornbeck: I think that when documenting you're in an extremely critical watching point to see how things are
<sivang> actually there a point here :) .
<hornbeck> I must say that I am somewhat enlightened 
<plovs> so, what docs sgould be written is there a list somewhere of stuff that needs to be done/
* enrico cheers at hornbeck's enlightenment
<sivang> The point is , if someone want to be fiddeling with inner workings and low lever stuff, that's cool. We won't concentrate on it at first.
<hornbeck> plovs: I have just been watching the mailing list
<enrico> plovs: One thing we can do is creating a 'documentation' metapackage on bugzilla
<sivang> or make the devs improve it altogether.
<enrico> plovs: then using that as a todo-list, and to post ideas
<sivang> this would be our first doc bug ! :)
* sivang is however uncertain whe this bug would be close :)
<enrico> That could be used to collect requests, and reassign them to other documents we're writing or maintaining
<enrico> sivang: when we feel like, of course!
<plovs> in the wiki is a page about kernel compiling etc, i could write that
<hornbeck> plovs: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/KernelHowto
<hornbeck> plovs its all your
<sivang> enrico : haha, no I meant - this would serve as on ongoing list of things to do, and their status, so It might as well never close as work would always need doing :)
<plovs> ok, in the documentation should we concentrate on command-line use, apt-get or explain everything through synaptic
<enrico> Bugs that are never closed have a nice usefulness in collecting discussion
<enrico> We could collect enough discussion on a never closed topic that it becomes a book on his own
<sivang> enrico : haha, no I meant - this would serve as on ongoing list of things to do, and their status, so It might as well never close as work would always need doing :)
<enrico> (and then we publish the book and close the bug ;)
<sivang> yes!
<mako> heh
<hornbeck> plovs I have been trying to do alittle of both
<hornbeck> so a book deal is what we are really looking for out of this :)
<enrico> mako: how do we get such a virtual package for bugzilla?
<mako> enrico: ask justdave
<enrico> hornbeck: not afaik
<mako> enrico: it shouldn't be a problem
<sivang> I'll talk to justave
<enrico> hornbeck: I was just talking abstract
<plovs> until then we could just use a page in the wiki with a list of topics we want covered
<hornbeck> enrico: it was a joke
<enrico> Although maybe publishing books from free content could be nice (that is, you get the book, and even the source online, and you can buy a nice color printed copy and generate some revenue)
<enrico> But I'll keep that for discussion in the dissemination phase
<enrico> or even, when material is there, anyone can make a book out of it
<plovs> the free-bsd is nice, if i would use it, i would buy such a boo
<enrico> hornbeck: ops! Sorry for keeping it so long on a joke :(
<hornbeck> :)
<hornbeck> So goals for right now
<hornbeck> I need to go to work soon and need to know where we are
<hornbeck> can we summerize?
<asw> I could say a few things.
<enrico> asw: go on
<mako> someone should write up a summary and post it to -devel
<asw> I will: 
<mako> i will make sure it gets into traffic
<enrico> mako: you'll see our posts on -devel, you'll see them...
* enrico laughs evilly
<asw> talk "upstairs" about doc licensing. (in particular with respect to GFDL...) 
* sivang sivang joings him..moouahhha
<asw> I have offered to start a "ubuntu for scientists" section. 
<hornbeck> asw: start it up
<asw> I have suggested a wiki->docbook gateway (based on people's pref for doc book.) 
<enrico> ubuntu-devel used a a coordination mailing list, with [doc]  in the subject
<asw> I'm sorry these are all possibly far away goals...
<asw> that's all.
<asw> (for me)
<plovs> do we have some short-term goal, for say three months?
<mako> in regards to licensing, we don't need to worry so much
<enrico> we have 3 mantras that enlightened hornbeck
<hornbeck> yes very much so
<enrico> One short term goal could be a short document to get people to install ubuntu and connect with the community
<mako> we're not debian, and document licenses have an explicit exception in the philosophy document.. this team is probably empowered to deal with them on a case-by-case basis
<enrico> That's the shortest-term goal I can figure out
<enrico> With sivan we put down some more ideas on this
<asw> mako: I plan to write a real "dead-trees" book it will be part of my phd thesis and it will include an invariant section regarding why I think freesoftware is important for scientists.  I would like to see ubuntu distribute my book even if debian wont.  But this is a flame war for another day. 
<asw> I also plan to write documentation debian will distribute. 
* sivang reverts back to suggesting the artistic license, however offtopic now :)
<hornbeck> [OT]  is plone something I need to learn?
<enrico> hornbeck: not until you feel you really need to
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> I think discussion could continue with some proposals on the table
<plovs> what docbook layout do we use?
<enrico> Someone has suggestions about docbook layouts?
<plovs> we would need some sort of docbook primer like the fedora-people use (or we can use theirs)
<hornbeck> I would suggest we use the same layout that is used with gnome docs
<hornbeck> don't know what it is called
<sivang> We can end this now, and have some material sent -devel , than continue discussion their. let us raise up the [doc]  traffic! :)
<hornbeck> sivang: I agree
<plovs> sivang: would it possible to have a seperate doc-list?
<hornbeck> plovs: not right now
<plovs> too bad...
<enrico> If there are no other very short-term things to discuss, my plan would be to start wikifying the documentation proposal and posting to the list an extract of the summaries of my and sivan e-mail brainstorming and the summary of this meeting
<hornbeck> plovs: all in good time
<sivang> we would have to add some more traffic to -devel, until they can't stand us amymore and would have to set up one :)
<enrico> That's the main plan
<asw> plovs: it's not so bad to be forced to read what the developers are up to but also if you just use [doc]  in the subject line it's easy to filter the documentation messages...
<hornbeck> enrico: I will post a docbook format question to the list
<sivang> asw : exactly.
<sivang> another thing that needs be done,
<sivang> is the start orginizing all the scattered parts of documentation into one stop shop wiki page,
<sivang> that would link to everything else 
<hornbeck> sivang: I am working on this
<hornbeck> I have notes for different pages, and just need to get them together
<sivang> I'd sugges to have the /UDP Page as strting home,
<hornbeck> planned on working that tonight
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> sivang: do we want /UDP to branch off to other start pages
<sivang> and move all development and sketched to /DocumentationTeam/Development
<hornbeck> do we want /Desktop /Command than go to the correct docs
<sivang> hornbeck : it can, however this should be very inline with the goal you're trying to explain
* enrico works at wikifying the proposal and posting notes, then
<plovs> in moinmoin with category you can make easily searchable docs, like CategoryNotYetFinished etc
<sivang> yes
<sivang> that could assist us 
<enrico> I declare the meeting has finished, thank you everyone for participating, it's been a great groove!
<plovs> then make one page in the wiki with a search-string and it will give you a list of pages
<enrico> The room will be free for us to stay around
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> So don't worry about having to leave :)
<plovs> enrico: see ya!
<asw> good talking with all of you! 
<hornbeck> sivang: There are alot of random docs
<enrico> I'll be online just here, following the discussion
<sivang> hornbeck : yes I noticed :)
<hornbeck> sivang: so do we want to put them all on one page or have pages for sorting
<sivang> hornbeck : as I see it, we need organize those goal wise high level and then diverge as neccesary in referenced pages.
<enrico> Writing indexes is also a very good form of writing.  I wouldn't mind creating with composing existing text instead than creating with composing words
<sivang> the idea is to make the documenation goal oriented
<enrico> But don't talk to me about indexing (yet)
<enrico> The problem is, I have the technological solution for all indexing and cathegorization needs
<enrico> I mean, the perfect solution
<hornbeck> enrico: get to it
<hornbeck> :)
<enrico> So when I start talking about it, I don't stop
<enrico> apt-get install debtags-edit; debtags update; debtags-edit
<plovs> hornbeck: a wiki does not need to be hierarchical, just use [[PageList(regex)] ] , to make automatic indexes
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> debtags is faceted categorization applied to Debian packages.  It seems to be a good approach for sorting 15000+ different packages
<hornbeck> what is this debtags enrico?
<enrico> But here, as you see, we're digressing
<hornbeck> well the wife needs me for alittle while
<hornbeck> I will be around today
<mako> before people disband
<hornbeck> thanks for the meeting everyone
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> fine joh :)
<mako> is someone going to write this up?
<sivang> c'ya soon!
<mako> who is writing up the summary and action items?
<hornbeck> enrico?
<sivang> me and enrico , I guess
<enrico> Yes, I'd say so
<mako> sivang: please, email -devel
<hornbeck> ok, so someone's on it
<hornbeck> have fun guys
<mako> yeah, just want to make sure someone has that one :)
<sivang> mako : we will , we will .....mouhaaa
<sivang> :)))
* sivang away "be back in 15 minutes"
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-10-29
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sabdfl] : Community meeting on artowrk will be in #ubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sabdfl] : Community meeting on artwork will be in #ubuntu
<Kinnison> Okay, I guess the /topic answers my question :-)
<opi^work> morning
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-10-30
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Keybuk] : Technical Board Meeting 1600UTC Today: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<pitti> Hi sabdfl
<Keybuk> (I'll be about 2 minutes)
<fabbione> hi everybody
<sabdfl> hey everyone
<sabdfl> mdz around?
<pitti> sabdfl: yes, in #u-devel
<sabdfl> just pinged him
<sabdfl> who else do we need? kamion?
<pitti> me too :-)
<fabbione> elmo perhaps?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: ?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: ready?
<Keybuk> yup
* Keybuk is running massively behind today; haggai popped in for half an hour and stayed for four :)
* sabdfl is running massively behind today. tla and postgres and make on macosx :-)
<sabdfl> mdz: set?
<mdz> yep
<sabdfl> ok, warty status matt?
<mdz> looks like no new critical bugs were opened while I slept, so currently we are still in release condition as far as bugs
<mdz> Kamion: the archive-copier changes went in last night as well?
<mdz> I haven't been able to check in with jdub since going to sleep last night, so I'm not sure about the status of his work
<sabdfl> from my side, waiting only for new artowrk packages from jdub
<mdz> lamont produced a working live CD at the data center
<sabdfl> working?
<mdz> I downloaded it and used it
<sabdfl> network, apps?
<pitti> mdz: I checked today's ppc image, archive-copier and stuff was okay
<fabbione> sabdfl: yeps.. tested here too
<sabdfl> great
<mdz> tested network connectivity, firefox, openoffice, etc.
<mdz> for some reason my sound came up muted
<mdz> wireless was detected and the driver loaded
<sabdfl> if we have to tweak live cd, does it involve package tweaks or is it all behind the scenes?
<mdz> fabbione: was your sound muted?
<mdz> sabdfl: in this case, we had to remove something
<Kamion> mdz: yes, today's CD seems to work with it
<fabbione> mdz: i don't have any speakers yet sorry
<fabbione> mdz: they are still packed and they will be for a long while
<mdz> sabdfl: the entire desktop set + the winfoss stuff was > 650M
<mdz> just by a hair, but still over
<sabdfl> reason for asking is if we can release tomorrow for install, and put out an rc livecd
<silbs> lamont knows 3-4 issues (including sound) w/ live cd
<mdz> sabdfl: if we could remove one of the winfoss apps, we could restore the font package we removed
<sabdfl> lamont asked and i though we should drop a windows package rather than compromise warty
<sabdfl> done
<mdz> sabdfl: agreed, but I didn't want to do that without asking you
<mdz> ok, let's drop that astronomical program
<sabdfl> agreed
<sabdfl> are the live cd issues fixable without package uploads?
<sabdfl> in other words, can we consider the packages final for release?
<sabdfl> are the fixes in the underlying layer?
<mdz> I haven't caught up with lamont yet this morning, so I'm not sure what the issues are
<mdz> I'll follow up after the meeting
<silbs> 1) artwork will change
<silbs> (16:20:56) lamont: 2) sound is busted some places (due to differences in hwdetection between morphix kernel and ubuntu...)
<silbs> 3 was the space thing and 4 is 4) other hardware detection inconsistencies between live and install CD's exist.
<mdz> 2) lamont said alex fixed
<sabdfl> don't think we can do anything further about hw detection inconsistencies
<mdz> 4) is a known issue we must live with for warty
<mdz> it's a hoary goal to make it consistent across the board
<sabdfl> we knew warty wouldn't have perfect consistency
<mdz> lamont: you said alex fixed the order of sound device detection, right?
<sabdfl> so i don't think should hold back the release
<mdz> we can't call the packages final until we have final artwork, since that's in packaged form
<lamont> mdz: he said he reveresed it, but didn't have a 2-sound system to check against.
<mdz> lamont: give me a URL and I'll start downloading now
<lamont> sound is still unhappy on my vaio
<lamont>   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386.iso.torrent
<lamont> Or, if you can't use bit torrent, the actual iso is at:
<lamont>   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386.iso
<mdz> ok, will test when I have it
<lamont> building a new CD image +ttf-baekmuk -windoze.celestia
<mdz> lamont: that still fits, right?
<sabdfl> mdz: yes, but do the live cd changes also require package changes, or is it just the autobuilder that changes?
<lamont> should.  that's what I'm verifying
<amu> looks like the problem is desktop <-> laptop systems based, i tested it today on 4 differnt systems, on laptops it fails on desktops sound works
<mdz> sabdfl: the remaining changes are artwork (which requires package changes AND build system changes, I believe) and the changes lamont is doing right now (which are purely build system changes)
<lamont> sabdfl: sorry that was to mdz. liveCD changes require (maybe) syncing the local mirror, and then turning the crank again
<lamont> mdz: artwork --> package change, sync new packages into the right place, turn crank
<mdz> lamont: you don't need to drop the splash image into place?
<mdz> or the grub image?
<Kamion> lamont: are you building locally now or in the LAN?
<lamont> that's the package that has to get sync'ed/
<sabdfl> ok, but fixing sound, hw sync etc, that's an autobuilder change, not a package change?
<lamont> Kamion: building home-edition right now, if it fits, I'll build the DC-edition
<Kamion> lamont: 'kay
<sabdfl> "ubuntu, the colorado hills edition"
<sabdfl> "live, from colorado"
<lamont> fixing sound/hw detection is possibly a major overhaul of morphix
<sabdfl> pass
<lamont> worst case, sound is a user-obvious case of the hw detection not meshing.
<mdz> unfortunately, users will judge Ubuntu hardware detection based on the live CD
<lamont> we tried the trivial workaround for that case in the current CD.
<mdz> even though they're completely different
<lamont> mdz: very true
<sabdfl> hoary will be better, right amu?
<mdz> amu: in my case, it was simply that the sound devices were found in the opposite order
<mdz> on my laptop
<mdz> since it has a modem
<sabdfl> ok, artwork
<sabdfl> did anyone hear anything from jeff today?
<lamont> for hoary, since we already have all the autodetection in our kernel/X/whatever, it probably makes sense to just roll the morphix patches over and include things that way, I would think... dunno.
<sabdfl> i saw a note about him going to a meeting
<amu> sabdfl: i'm sure, with this manpower we reach asap world domination  
<sabdfl> 9am aussie time
<sabdfl> but nothing fter that
<lamont> btw, this liveCD has the latest grub screen from jdub
<Keybuk> he was off to a presentation of some kind this morning (UK)
<amu> mdz: I didnt tested why, i tested more basic things, works/works not   
<lamont> amu: much of your list was "not for warty" stuff, sadly.
<sabdfl> we either have to build a new set of packages based on what jdub last pushed out, or wait for him, or call him at home
<amu> lamont: ... i tested it from a view a user, which is imported for a user, in order to do his dayly work with it
<sabdfl> i'd really like to have a final build tonight
<mdz> we should call him
<sabdfl> so we can get it mirrored ut
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> it's only 0230 or so, no? :-)
<Keybuk> descent scott% TZ=Australia/Sydney date
<Keybuk> Wed Oct 20 02:23:51 EST 2004
<Kamion> let's wake him up if he's asleep
<lamont> amu: understood
<Kamion> he should be awake anyway :)
<mdz> he did know that we wanted to do a build soon
<fabbione> Kamion: eheh
<Kamion> mdz: we can push stuff like jigit in post-CD-build, right?
<amu> sabdfl: should be possible
<Kamion> since it's Supported, not Base/Desktop/Ship
<mdz> Kamion: into the archive?
<sabdfl> no answer
<mdz> yes
<sabdfl> voicemail
<Kamion> mdz: yes
<sabdfl> how will we deal with the flood of "please get xyz version x..z into universe, it fixes a ton of bugs" requests?
<mdz> sabdfl: "use hoary"?
<lamont> sabdfl: will sync for hoary, I imagine...
<sabdfl> ok
<Keybuk> are we intending to update universe?  I assumed that would be frozen like supported
<mdz> Keybuk: correct
<lamont> freeze the whole thing
<Keybuk> so yeah, mdz++
<mdz> we've been very flexible with updating universe stuff up until now
<sabdfl> during hoary's freeze, can we setup a process for the community to nominate and approve syncs without affecting the core team?
<mdz> but we do have to call an end to it
<mdz> sabdfl: hmm, could work
<mdz> for universe
<sabdfl> the "universe team"
<mdz> "masters of the universe"
<sabdfl> as long as they are sane and sensible, they could, erm rule the universe
<Kamion> mdz++
<lamont> sabdfl: on the "should you care" front, much of multiverse is d-w j2sdk1.[34] 
* Keybuk mops the tea from his monitor
<fabbione> i am afraid that will give buildd (and lamont) a lot of headackes to unfuck *
<sabdfl> lamont: and in english?
<sivang> howdy folks
<lamont> lots of multiverse ain't built since we ain't got no java in multiverse
<mdz> sabdfl: lacking java
<lamont> oh wait. that was 'merican.
<sabdfl> 'k
<mdz> fabbione: build failures will be the responsibility of the universe guys
<lamont> but warty remains warty.  bug fixes for universe go into hoary.
<amu> packages: evolution, well it has some nice feature like spamchecks or groupware, outlookplugins, i think we should add those depends
<fabbione> mdz: i am more afraid of something that builds and kill the rest of universe
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> just trying jdub's mobile
<mdz> fabbione: also their problem
<mdz> this is what it means for universe to be community supported
<sabdfl> ok, let's move on
<fabbione> mdz: in theory it works perfectly.. let's see how it goes in reality :-)
<sabdfl> Hoary starter plans
<Keybuk> that was mine, I think
<mdz> I estimate we have a solid few weeks of work for the review and merge process
<Keybuk> *swaps hats*
<sabdfl> Keybuk: hct status?
<Keybuk> what I was going to offer, for the review/merge process was setting up a temporary arch repository
<Keybuk> import debian from warty freeze to current day into that
<mdz> that includes a lot of stuff that we can't really automate, even with hct
<Keybuk> import warty into that
<Keybuk> that'll give us an easy merge to create hoary
<mdz> we need to check which bugs have been fixed, even if they were done in a different way
<sabdfl> "easy merge"?
<Keybuk> sabdfl: hct is good, but without any arch imports it's not useful
<Keybuk> sabdfl: well, I can do an hct tablecloth-trick (jdub's name :p) on it
<sabdfl> how many packages did we touch for warty?
<Kamion> fwiw I'm happy to merge d-i by hand; estimate about a week ...
<Keybuk> sabdfl: many. many. many.
<sabdfl> about 340 right?
<mdz> sabdfl: at last count
<mdz> that figure has only increased since
<sabdfl> one option is to put the new things into hoary only
<sabdfl> like x.org
<sabdfl> gnome 2.9
<Keybuk> we can use hct to do the difficult bit, but as a general-use tool it's still waiting on those bloody imports :-(
<mdz> 1018 source packages
<sabdfl> stuff where we are really the head
<mdz> 356 with ubuntu version numbers
<mdz> so about 35%
<sabdfl> and the number will only go up for hoary
<Keybuk> what do we do with the rest of the packages?
<sabdfl> (btw fantastic job warty team)
<pitti> sabdfl: well, much stuff was sent upstream
<mdz> pitti: yes, but we have no record of what was merged and what was not
<elmo> I see more like 500 with ubuntu version numbers, including all components
<sabdfl> pitti: yes, but a ton of stuff wasn't
<mdz> and we have many changes which were not appropriate for upstream
<fabbione> sabdfl: for x.org i need xfree86 too. that's not really an option
<pitti> no, unfortunately not in an automated way
<mdz> elmo: I was only looking at main
<sabdfl> fabbione: so manage the transition?
<sabdfl> s/so/to/
<mdz> elmo has said it is no problem to set things up so that we automatically sync stuff that doesn't have an ubuntu version number
<fabbione> sabdfl: in terms of code we have 300K lines of patches from Xfree86 that needs to be reviewed to go into X.org
<mdz> then we merge the remainder by hand
<fabbione> sabdfl: that's just "upstream" transition
<sabdfl> is that likely to lead to real breakage in dependencies?
<fabbione> sabdfl: without taking into account all the packaging part
<mdz> fabbione: daniel mentioned that 300k number as well; where does that come from?
<sabdfl> since the packages we touched hardest are probably also most central?
<mdz> there are less than 300k lines of patches in debian/patches
<mdz> about half that
<elmo> yeah, it's 492 including non-main components.. wonder why we ended up modifying so many non-main things
<fabbione> mdz: wc -l debian/patches/*
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, there will be dependency breakage
<mdz> elmo: libtiff transition in universe, etc.
<elmo> ah, right
<Keybuk> elmo: lamont had a build-dep mania one day
<mdz> fabbione: diffstat debian/patches/*
<sabdfl> ok... this isn't an area where i can lead guys, you know best
<Kamion> mdz: that will certainly result in much temporary breakage in d-i, but I think that's fine for hoary TBH
<mdz> sabdfl: the issue is that we have a ton of work to do before hoary can really start to flow
<mdz> sabdfl: which doesn't give us a break after the release at all
<Keybuk> we have a semi-automatic solution that might work for everything we're not leading
<Kamion> it'll take a few days to make d-i work for hoary anyway, for one reason or another
<sabdfl> team deserves a break
<Keybuk> things like gnome we're leading Debian anyway
* lamont must take a break post release, or find  a new wife and a way to pay for the old one.
<mdz> Keybuk: the semi-automation is not dependent on imports?
<Kamion> $ ls src/ubuntu | wc -l
<Kamion> 104
<sabdfl> Keybuk: what's the status on the imports? lifeless told me we were on our way
<Keybuk> mdz: only package imports and I can do those and throw them away afterwards
<Keybuk> sabdfl: well, arch.ubuntu.com hasn't changed in three weeks
<Kamion> guess about half of those belong to me to merge
<T-Bone> lamont: lol
<mdz> we should do a manual review up front, before trying anything fancy
<sabdfl> ok, i'll chase lifeless on the arch merge front
<mdz> we can probably eliminate 25-50% of those packages because everything has been merged upstream
<sabdfl> have mostly been focused on malone
<mdz> based on changelogs
<Kamion> mdz: hardest work will be stuff that's been branded, for sure
<fabbione> mdz:  1499 files changed, 161366 insertions(+), 67008 deletions(-)
<mdz> Kamion: agreed
<sabdfl> are our own patches clearly separated?
<Kamion> sabdfl: depends
<mdz> sabdfl: only in a subset of cases
<Kamion> sabdfl: you can't clearly separate patches to .po files and stay sane at the same time
<sabdfl> so are you guys READY for tla?
<mdz> sabdfl: no
<Keybuk> patches to .po files are evil :-(
<sabdfl> Kamion: right
<mdz> rather, tla is not ready for us
<sabdfl> rosetta :-)
<fabbione> sabdfl: no for X.org
<Kamion> sabdfl: yes, but even so
<sabdfl> tla isn't going to improve soon
<sabdfl> we have an arch team drill for two weeks before es-conf
<sabdfl> but that's jsut where we will set the goals for usability
<mdz> it would be much less work to bring the patches forward manually than to get up to speed with tla
<mdz> everyone would take 30 packages
* Kamion is happy to use tla in a subset of cases, but wants to have a Plan B
<sabdfl> the launchpad team has really battled with tla, and it's certianly not something i'm comfortable recommending for global FLOSS use
<mdz> with any luck, 10 of those would be simple changelog review and revert to Debian
<sabdfl> at the same time, it's proven fantastic when it works
<Keybuk> sabdfl: did you read mako's blog entry?
<sabdfl> nope, url?
<mdz> that's not a huge amount of work for each of us
<Kamion> (er, when I say tla I mean raw/hct/whatever)
<Kamion> mdz: I think we could crunch through nearly everything in a week, personally
<Keybuk> http://mako.yukidoke.org/copyrighteous/freesoftware/20041017-00.html
<mdz> Kamion: we need to pace ourselves :-)
<Kamion> a week of fairly solid work, but I don't think it'll be terribly *hard* work
<sabdfl> or planet.ubuntu.com
<sabdfl> yes, very well put
<fabbione> Kamion: i agree..a lot of our local patches have been included in debian
<sabdfl> the main issue is not that we can crunch through it, it's that sustaining the delta manually is just going to be "make work" without good tools
<Kamion> and the packages we've changed are all hopefully packages we've become familiar with
<sabdfl> at least that's how it seems to me, but you guys would know better
<fabbione> mdz: pace? i wake up in the middle of the night yelling X.org :)
<Keybuk> heh, I had a dream the other night in which everyone was a changeset and all trying to get through a single door
<amu> lamont: pay for the old one ? a easy solution, poison her, you go into prison and you have all day time for hacking 
<mdz> sabdfl: that is correct
<mdz> but the tools simply aren't ready yet
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's true, but at the same time our feature goals for hoary are such that we need to have a place to put interim work on them fairly soon, without losing too much time with the tools
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> seems to me bringing up the toolset would be better done in the middle of a release cycle, where it can be more easily parallelised?
<mdz> we can create a simple source-package-merge tool which can automate the cases where there are no conflicts
<mdz> that's not hard
<mdz> we can set up a notification system whenever a new merge is needed
<sabdfl> one option is just to ignore it till we freeze hoary
<sabdfl> because at least then the targete isn't moving so fast
<sabdfl> so, start work on all the new things for hoary
<sabdfl> push upstream as much as possible
<mdz> you mean, ignore merging new stuff from Debian?
<sabdfl> no, other way around
<Keybuk> mdz: Debian hasn't moved a *huge* amount yet
<sabdfl> ignore bringing forward warty stuff
<mdz> Keybuk: the RC bugs we've seen fly by say otherwise :-/
<mdz> sabdfl: I don't think we can do that
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> that would revert all of our branding, all of our bug fixes, everything we've done to make things work right
<mdz> the merge will only get more difficult as time goes on
<sabdfl> i'm just wondering whether it's more work to port it forward and then keep it merged as debian updates before we freeze
<mdz> the right time to do it is immediately when hoary opens
<sabdfl> or bring it forward when we freeze
<sabdfl> but then we have to merge every time the relevant debian package updates
<Kamion> in my experience, repeated small merges are less work
<mdz> Kamion: agreed
<pitti> Kamion: agreed
<sabdfl> oh, ok
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, but they're small, easy merges generally
<Keybuk> Kamion++, keep the merges small
<fabbione> Kamion: agreed!
<Kamion> one big merge just becomes unintelligible and you end up breaking it down into repeated small merges anyway
<thom> agreed
<sabdfl> ok
<Keybuk> elmo: ping?
<elmo> yeah
<sabdfl> well, lots of merge work for the hoary team will make them expert endusers for hct when it comes :-)
<Keybuk> elmo: is there any way you can make the warty morgue available ?
<mdz> we should schedule a Hoary kickoff meeting
<elmo> Keybuk: it already is on rookery
<mdz> that will include reviewing the list of potential feature goals, deciding what we can actually do for hoary, and breaking down tasks
<elmo> last updated a week or so ago
<Kamion> mdz: Thursday for sleep, Friday for meetings? :)
<Keybuk> elmo: rookery doesn't have much on it though (like tla :p)
<mdz> Kamion: thursday-sunday sleep, monday meeting?
<Keybuk> and is rookery caneable?
<fabbione> mdz: no later that 14:00 UTC please :-) or my future wife will hunt you down :P
<thom> mdz++
<sabdfl> mdz: i figure you and the team will make the best call on merge strategy
<sabdfl> please push the arch team to make arch suit YOU, not the other way around
<pitti> adapt the problem to the solution :-)
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, I have no problem with the strategy, only the fact that we don't have time to breathe between releasing warty and opening hoary
<mdz> because opening hoary requires the huge merge effort
<sabdfl> i think give your team the break
<pitti> but we can take our time for it, right?
<sabdfl> let's spend some time thinking about what we want in hoary
<mdz> fabbione: that's 0700 here, which causes problems for MY home life :-)
<sabdfl> the merge will go much faster if we have exciting goals for hoary
<mdz> sabdfl: so, announce that hoary will remain more or less equal to Warty for a week or so?
<sabdfl> i'm asolutely fine with that
<mdz> ok, works for me
<sabdfl> the warty team has put in a superhuman effort
<mdz> they're chomping at the bit, but they'll survive for a week I think
<pitti> I thought we sync all unmodified packages?
<sabdfl> the last few days should have been a slight break since we were in such deep freeze
<mdz> pitti: I don't think we should do that until we've reviewed the modified ones
<mdz> otherwise we're likely to break deps all over the place
<sabdfl> but everyone needs a proper release
<pitti> mdz: we could employ the sarge testing scripts to check that deps don't break
<elmo> mdz: that'll at least warn people hoary is a devel branch ;)
<sabdfl> ok, so let's talk about the non-merge challenges for hoary
<Kamion> pitti: we're already running them in report-only mode
<pitti> so much the better
<Kamion> pitti: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~cjwatson/testing/
<mdz> I'd like to discuss the feature goals at the hoary kickoff meeting when everyone is around
<pitti> Kamion: so would it be possible to sync all packages that don't conflict to anything?
<fabbione> mdz: daniels and I will be busy on the X-Man meeting from the 1st of Nov.
<sabdfl> ok, i'm more interested in discussing how we organise it than what the goals are
<fabbione> mdz: for 2 full weeks
<mdz> sabdfl: which aspects?
<Kamion> pitti: I suspect that's more trouble than it's worth; sync 'em, let the team sort out the breakage
<sabdfl> well, some of them are similar to warty
<pitti> Kamion: okay, agreed
<sabdfl> debian sid + stability and security
<sabdfl> gnome 2.x
<sabdfl> x.org
<pitti> Kamion: I don't feel that tooo much will break
<sabdfl> but some are also whole chunks of brand new work
<pitti> Kamion: (as long as we don't sync older versions)
<sabdfl> and that's something we didnt do for warty
<sabdfl> new apps and applets
<sabdfl> bootsplash
<mdz> we did some smaller chunks of new work for warty
<sabdfl> but much of that was opportunistic
<mdz> right
<sabdfl> which is easier to manage
<sabdfl> i prefer to work opportunitically, frankly
<sabdfl> but for hoary we have set some goals
<mdz> for hoary, I think we'll trim down the list of feature goals to a subset which is achievable for hoary
<mdz> and build a small team for each
<sabdfl> either way, i think we'll find that the goals will fall on the floor if we don't start early
<sabdfl> assign each goal to someone
<mdz> there are a number of community members who are interested in working on the feature goals
<Kamion> it'll be an interesting exercise in the first month or so discovering how much of what we've set ourselves is achievable; we haven't settled into time estimation yet really
<sabdfl> or put a reasonable bounty on it
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
<sabdfl> it's that new aspect of things that i'm concerned about
<sabdfl> we can do it
<mdz> Kamion: as far as I'm concerned, everything on the page now is just brainstorming
<mdz> we'll choose from that what we can actually do
<sabdfl> but it's a new management thing
<sabdfl> mdz: agreed, it's a wiki after all
<mdz> much of it will fall to grumpy
<sabdfl> estimating is very hard to do
<sabdfl> i'd like to identify the things that are absolutely core and have our team do those
<pitti> hmm, IMHO the most important Hoary goal is using the new infrastructure
<sabdfl> everything else is nice-to-have and we put a bounty on it and try to steer the community in that direction
<sabdfl> pitti: launchpad?
<pitti> sabdfl: yes
<mdz> current hoary feature freeze is February 7th
<pitti> sabdfl: hct, arch, and this magic
<lamont> mdz: +ttf-baekmuk - windoze.celestia ==> 329950 extents written (644 MB)
<sabdfl> we'll have soyuz up and running in a week or two in view mode
<Kamion> pitti: I tend to feel that the most important Hoary goal is to release in April :-) We need to convince the community that we can do this six-month release thing ...
<sabdfl> malone sooner
<sabdfl> Kamion: i agree
<pitti> Kamion: okay :-)
<mdz> so we will need to select goals where primary development can be complete in ~3 months
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> that's why i was relaxed about the merging
<Keybuk> Kamion++ totally
<sabdfl> i'd almost like to get everyone excited about new feature goals and give people time to explore those
<Keybuk> the most important thing for hoary is to nail the release datae
<sabdfl> i don't want to be in the same situation we were in at oxford
<pitti> Keybuk: I took this for granted 
<mdz> well, if we need to drop a new feature because it isn't ready, we can do that
<sabdfl> with exciting new features creeping in very close to final freeze
<Keybuk> sabdfl: fortunately December isn't close to freeze, it's actually a good time for development madness
<sabdfl> so, for example, bzip should go in NOW
<sabdfl> so we have time to tweak and tune
<Keybuk> sabdfl: can I clear a day for that?
<mdz> Keybuk: yes, the schedule meshes much better now
<sabdfl> Keybuk: absoloodle
<elmo> or decide that it's crack and not do it :P
<fabbione> elmo++
<sabdfl> at the hoary launch meeting we can clarify all ofthis
<sabdfl> but i wanted to describe the approach here
<mdz> sabdfl: ok, so are you proposing that we isolate the core Hoary goals at this meeting?
<sabdfl> this meeting now? no
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> just agree that we'll work hard on those new feature goals sooner rather than later
<sabdfl> otherwise they'll just fall on the floor
<sabdfl> and i agree with kamion
<mdz> of course
<sabdfl> better to set the bar lower and hit the goal
<mdz> it's juts that all of this is in direct conflict with giving the team a short break after release
<sabdfl> well, change is a holiday :-)
<sabdfl> for example, cleaning up that hoary list before the meeting will be relaxing
<sabdfl> getting people to figure out what aspects they want to make personal goals
<pitti> sounds nice
<Keybuk> sabdfl: you find playing with that database schema from hell relaxing, though :)
<sabdfl> Keybuk: i don't pretend to be normal :-)
<Keybuk> I guess we should skip Hoary Release Plans until the meeting, seeing as the release manager's in bed ? :)
<sabdfl> how effectively do you think we can get community interest in bounties up and running?
<mdz> I think it's happening already, organically
<mdz> I have several things queued up which could become hoary feature bounties
<sabdfl> for example, if we publish a list of $100k's worth of bounties for hoary, are we likely to see interest?
<Keybuk> yeah, I think the interest is ramping
<sabdfl> i think we want to make them bounties, but with drop-dead dates
<sabdfl> so people feel an urgency to actually deliver early
<lamont> and those dates are pre-freeze, yes?
<Keybuk> If they're cool things, I'd be surprised if we didn't get any interest
<sabdfl> my experience with bounties in the past is that the take-up is very haphazard
<mdz> deadlines like 2-4 weeks before feature freeze
<sabdfl> mdz: but with milestone drops sooner rather than later
<mdz> agreed
<sabdfl> so maybe we say you can "stake a claim" to a bounty
<sabdfl> but then you have to start producing code drops every two weeks
<lamont> could be first code drop is your stake?\
<sabdfl> so people don't just sit on them
<sabdfl> lamont: good idea
<sabdfl> but people don't like to start work if they think someone else is already on it
<sivang> true
<sabdfl> simultaneously they dont actually work unless they think it could go to someone else
<mdz> we have a number of projects which are bigger than one person
<sabdfl> also true
<mdz> is there a way to make team-based bounties work?
<lamont> right - just means that you have a 2 week window from ITP to first drop...
<sabdfl> mdz: yes i think so
<sabdfl> need to appoint a team leader, and have them agree the rest
<sabdfl> i'll have another person in the office here from November 8th
<sabdfl> can keep track of bounties
<sabdfl> so the admin should be straightforward
<silbs> they should name their own team leader, not us. We shouldn't care if it's 1 person or >1
<lamont> right - any bounty could subcontract parts of it.
<mdz> silbs: so our agreement would always be with one person, and if they divide things up as a team behind the scenes, that's their problem?
<sabdfl> ok, anything else on how we'll organise ourselves for hoary?
<mdz> we need to review the release schedule, but that can happen at kickoff
<thom> mdz: that seems reasonable as long as they understand that
<silbs> mdz: i think so. We don't want to be arbitrator of "X did more work than Y"
<sabdfl> jdub put a note on the wiki that he will review the hoary schedule
<sabdfl> bounties can be tricky
<sabdfl> i had two guys arguing over who's PyGTK Exim Monitor was better
<sabdfl> we'll figure that stuff out
<Keybuk> sabdfl: before he does, it's worth finding out whether we want to tie it quite as closely to GNOME's as we did this time
<Keybuk> mdz had a minor stroke when he realised seb was putting 2.8.1 on RC day
<sabdfl> Keybuk, mdz, any reason not to tie to gnome?
<sabdfl> oh
<mdz> sabdfl: we need a buffer
<sabdfl> i think we should plan to make our preview on gnome 2.10
<mdz> we can't have new upstream releases going in an hour before we roll the release
<sabdfl> and our release gnome 2.10.1 + x days
<sabdfl> mdz: we CAN, it's just not sensible ;-)
<mdz> for warty, it has actually interfered with building the CD images
<mdz> we need +1 day at least
<sabdfl> how many days are a sane pressure release?
<Keybuk> how many days of testng do we need before we're happy to begin rolling things?
<sabdfl> 3?
<fabbione> sabdfl, mdz: we also need to kill the overlap between releasing stable and the first CD of the next release
<sabdfl> fabbione: yes, agreed
<sabdfl> hmm...
<mdz> the GNOME point releases are generally very sane
<mdz> we just need to avoid having the stuff happen at exactly the same time
<sabdfl> will we start grumpy rolling when we freeze hoary?
<mdz> 3 days should be fine
<mdz> sabdfl: not unless we have automated merge capability
<mdz> we can't divert effort to manual merging at that time
<sabdfl> ok, so plan for preview on gnome 2.10, final on gnome 2.10.1+3d
<sabdfl> mdz: yes, agreed
<mdz> Keybuk: 27 December?
<sabdfl> what date is that currently?
<sabdfl> mdz: stop doing that, it freaks me out
<mdz> sabdfl: ^^
<Keybuk> mdz: what's 27th December ?
<sabdfl> :-)
<mdz> Keybuk: upstream version freeze
<pitti> feature freeze?
<Keybuk> my stuff will be ready well before then, the arch import team need a Saturn V up their arse though to get them moving :p
<sabdfl> Keybuk: incoming
<mdz> upstream freeze is probably the earliest we would want to do it
<mdz> we should "encourage" folks to stick with hoary for as long as possible, to get testing
<Keybuk> sabdfl: incoming to where?
<sabdfl> hmm... perhaps we could create a grumpy team
<sabdfl> community
<sabdfl> that uses hct to do the merging
<sabdfl> while we keep working on hoary
<fabbione> sabdfl, mdz: opening grumpy when we release RC should be ok i think..
<sabdfl> i envisage in future we'll have a "stable" team of two or three that keeps working on warty, say
<mdz> fabbione: that's far too late in my opinion
<sabdfl> so there could be an advance guard and a rearguard
<sabdfl> i wouldn't want to distract the core team with the merge issues
<sabdfl> anyhow, future problem
<sabdfl> next on the agenda
<fabbione> mdz: opening un unstable too early will take away the community from stable.
<sabdfl> policies and procedures for security
<mdz> right
<sabdfl> matt?
<mdz> for Warty
<Kamion> Keybuk: incoming> their arse, presumably? :)
<sivang> security team
<mdz> elmo has begun setting up the infrastructure side of things
<sabdfl> tks elmo
<mdz> we need a security team and associated procedures
<mdz> the folks who have volunteered are: elmo, lamont, Kamion, fabbione, daniels
<pitti> me too
<sabdfl> pitti
<mdz> , pitti
<sivang> me also
<mdz> , sivang
<mdz> the original list was from Oxford
<T-Bone> if i can help, assuming there are roles i can fit in ;)
<Keybuk> (1,492 warty patches across 459 source packages, btw)
<mdz> so of that list, who is still interested now that the time has come for hard work? :-)
<pitti> well, I did not know that there were so many interested people
<Kamion> mdz: ayup
<fabbione> mdz: yup
<pitti> Do we actually need so many sec team members?
<sivang> yeppers
<mdz> pitti: no, we do not
<lamont> mdz: mark me down
<mdz> I think we should have two people to start
<T-Bone> mdz: doesn't that lower the amount of work on the global team?
<pitti> I'm interested, but not if it gets too many
<sabdfl> with one person leading
<mdz> T-Bone: hmm?
<T-Bone> mdz: having several team members
<T-Bone> (sec team)
<Kamion> the people who've been doing security work so far should be first on the list ...
<mdz> T-Bone: I propose two
<lamont> T-Bone: with security,  not as much as you might think
<T-Bone> lamont: ok
* T-Bone bows before lamont's words ;)
<mdz> fabio has already been doing security work with me
<elmo> tbh, I don't even remember volunteering, and have more than enough to do elsewhere.  so feel free to take me off the list
<mdz> ok
<fabbione> elmo: too late for you :P
* T-Bone sees the list getting down to 'none' ;)
<lamont> mdz: how close to debian practices are you planning to be?
<sabdfl> what about pitti leading, with t-bone?
<elmo> mdz: do you want to use the same kind of advisory format as Debian, or shall I disable that feature?
<sivang> I am still interested in it, and already worked with pitti ;)
<T-Bone> sabdfl: i'd rather be "backup" than anything else. ia64 is gonna take me time i guess ;)
<mdz> elmo: in terms of the layout of the document, or having the list of packages and sums in it?
<sabdfl> i think it would be good to have a canonical person and someone from the community who's taking a more serious interest
<sabdfl> i could provide a small retainer for the volunteer
<mako> sabdfl: i think that would be ideal
<elmo> mdz: well, just having some sort of mail advisory where it'd be useful to have amber fill in the details that she can
<pitti> sabdfl: the most important thing is the team leader, to have sb who assures that things get done
* lamont has a strong interest in being actively involved on the team, at whatever level.  Unfamiliar with the internal workings of debina sec-team, though.
<mdz> sabdfl: what is the status of malone for tracking warty security issues?
<pitti> sabdfl: he can assign tasks to members, but then the particular structure is not so important
<sabdfl> mdz: pretty good
<sabdfl> not for high volume work
<sabdfl> the ui is still crufty
<mdz> security should be a good beta
<sabdfl> but we can assign a bug to multiple source packages
<mdz> or alpha
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> it doesn't even need to be public initially
<sabdfl> it won't
<sabdfl> we haven't planned the work to have hidden bugs though, so vendor-sec should be kept out of it if it's public
<mdz> once we have a stable release to point to, I am going to petition for us to be recognized by the security community and join vendor-sec
<sabdfl> this week we are bringing up the email interface
<sabdfl> and also the ability to watch bugzilla
<lamont> would also be good to join first.org at that point
<mdz> lamont: is first relevant?
<lamont> it's more a community visibility thing with the irt's
<lamont> hence "good to", rather than "should"
<amu> wow 900$  
<sabdfl> amu?
<mdz> amu: hm?
<fabbione> ???
<amu> first.org 
<amu> first's membership fee 
<sabdfl> ok, we'll appoint a security team
<sabdfl> canonical person leading
<sabdfl> potentially a community member joining too
* fabbione votes for mdz
<mdz> someone who is not mdz
* sivang votes for pitti
<sabdfl> will require a review of credentials and community council signoff
<pitti> "credentials"?
* fabbione still votes for mdz
<thom> mdz: your hat stand full?
<mdz> thom: it's collapsing under the weight
<sabdfl> pitti: security is very sensitive, requires someone who we trust with our own reputation
<lamont> mdz: get a taller one and walk up the wall??? :-)
<sabdfl> fabbione: mdz ain't eligible
<pitti> sabdfl: I'm still interested, but I might not have earned this after 6 weeks :-)
<sabdfl> monica says
<fabbione> sabdfl: but he is the one with biggest experience in it
<sabdfl> fabbione: agreed, the security team will report to mdz
<sabdfl> and he's setup the framework under which they operate
<sabdfl> and mentor them
<pitti> mdz could lead for a few weeks, then I could take over
<mdz> the key attribute for security is meticulousness
<mdz> both with preparing updates, and with tracking open issues
<sabdfl> we'll figure this out amongst the group of people who've expressed an interest
<mdz> agreed
<sabdfl> mdz: anything else on the organisation of that team and process?
<mdz> yes
<mdz> we need an abbreviation for ubuntu security advisories :-)
<mdz> USA is a major acronym collision
<fabbione> USA :P
<sivang> USA ?
<sivang> :)
<sabdfl> usec'sy thing?
<pitti> CSA?
<sivang> Canonical Security Advisory ?
<mdz> USN = notification?
<lamont> WSA? :-)
<Keybuk> USI
<mdz> RH uses "errata"
<lamont> Ubuntu Security Bulletin also has issues.
<Keybuk> heh, USE
<mdz> lamont: yep
<thom> USE isn't a great abreviation either
<mako> beter than USA
<pitti> SAU
<pitti> nice German namecalling
<T-Bone> USW?
<amu> pitti: ;) 
<sabdfl> Ubuntu Security Notice?
<mako> quick, whats the zulu word for "security advisory"
<sivang> ahah
<T-Bone> lol
<sabdfl> "spear"
<sivang> good one mako
<mdz> ok, well, think about it, send me ideas, and we'll decide something after the meeting
<mdz> sabdfl: hah
<mdz> "tiger"
<pitti> there aren't many TLAs left
<lamont> sabdfl: that's a security response, not advisory
<mdz> pitti: even TLA itself is overloaded
<sabdfl> default to "ubuntu security defect notice" maybe
<thom> Ubuntu Errata ?
<pitti> mdz: Three Letter Acronym
<sivang> USV
<mdz> anyway, I'm going to set aside a day to draft some security policies and procedures
<thom> pitti: tom lords arch
<mdz> what we'll fix, how, why, etc.
<pitti> thom: I know :-)
<sabdfl> ok, anything else before we give t-bone the floor?
<T-Bone> lol
<sabdfl> mdz: kiss
<sabdfl> it will evolve
* thom watches T-Bone disappear under a landslide of bricks and carpet
<T-Bone> hehe
<T-Bone> so that's up to me?
<sabdfl> t-bone, go ahead
<T-Bone> i'll be pretty quick, for the sake of everyone
<T-Bone> as i reported in previous mails, the IA-64 Ubuntu port was to be presented to the Gelato Council in Beijing last week
<T-Bone> it has received a good welcome from the members, and interest was shown
<sabdfl> with or without rc artwork? <duck>
<mdz> gelato, sounds delicious
<T-Bone> lol
<T-Bone> www.gelato.org for those who don't know what this is about
<T-Bone> several members (including people from UIUC/NCSA, HP...) have offered to help the port,
<mdz> nice!
<T-Bone> and Thierry Simonnet will send a report mail soon about the gelato meeting
<fabbione> cool!
<T-Bone> so,
<mdz> what sort of help have they offered?
<T-Bone> hopefully, we are close to get a bigger team than just "me" :^)
<T-Bone> mdz: the big idea is that they might be interested in making Ubuntu the somewhat "Gelato recommended Linux distribution for IA64"
<mdz> sounds great
<T-Bone> mdz: so if you look at the Gelato members page, and at what Gelato is about (IA64 Linux use for massive calculus computing, roughly put),
<T-Bone> you'll find out that it will obviously involve "make Ubuntu the best IA-64 distribution" on the TODO list ;)
<T-Bone> and that should also be a good thing for Ubuntu as a whole
<sabdfl> yes, i'm excited at this
<T-Bone> that sounded like to good news to me, so I thought it was worth letting you guys know about it ;)
<fabbione> T-Bone: really nice :-9
<thom> T-Bone: very cool, thanks for your efforts in getting us to the attention of the gelato folk
<lamont> as for the port efforts, T-Bone has been spinlocked on my time
<T-Bone> paticipation from the members will probably involve development taks force, material, and stuff like that, but i'll leave the details of the report to Thierry
<T-Bone> lamont: yeah, got a bit swamped last week
<T-Bone> so, to get back to the port status
<T-Bone> I was a bit quick in my announcement of the end of the stage1
<T-Bone> actually, we a have a "stage1" ubuntu archive locally
<T-Bone> a b0rken one ;)
<lamont> and my list includes trying to reproduce the error locally
<T-Bone> it seems that there was some trouble in the packaging of some pieces of software (involving overlapping files)
<T-Bone> nothing really bad, but it introduced unexpected delays
<sabdfl> we have ordered some ia64 machine. elmo what's the eta on those?
<T-Bone> the next tasks are: 1) solving this packaging mess so that we can get to stage2; and 2) work on the IA64 installer
<elmo> sabdfl: they're here - I plan to install them tomorrow/thursday
* sabdfl hopes lamont will be able to contain his excitement :-)
<elmo> that's why I'm leaving for London as soon as this meeting's over ;-)
<lamont> weeehoooo!
<T-Bone> sabdfl: wow! That's great news ;^)))
<sabdfl> you're both welcome
<lamont> elmo: woody for now, I assume?
<T-Bone> actually 1) and 2) could be done in parallel, but as i'm not yet ubiquous, i have to serialize
<elmo> lamont: yep
<elmo> lamont: unless you have something for me to upgrade to ?
<Kamion> w00t
<lamont> elmo: once I get warty/main built.  not until
<T-Bone> i will most likely need help of d-i gurus (Kamion?) for 2)
<elmo> lamont: k
<Kamion> T-Bone: happy to give you time post-warty
<T-Bone> lamont: if you are ok with dpkg --force-overwrite, i have a working warty archive
<T-Bone> ;)
<lamont> feh
* fabbione wonders how that can happen
<Kamion> T-Bone: (which also means I'll have somewhere to upload source to ...)
<T-Bone> Kamion: ok
<sabdfl> elmo: we got 4 boxen, right?
<elmo> sabdfl: yeah, 3 buildd, one port
<T-Bone> Kamion: if you need access to the ia64 boxes i have, i can easily arrange that
<mdz> wow
<sabdfl> 3 buildd's and a porting box
<Kamion> can we commit (in upload-stuff-to-the-archive terms) to ia64 in hoary?
<fabbione> gra
<fabbione> geart
<elmo> btw, what are we going to do about the ia64 and warty?  add it to the archive?
<fabbione> AMEN
<mdz> don't we have only 2xbuildd for existing architectures?
<fabbione> great!
<thom> mdz: 3 for existing
<sabdfl> elmo: no, not the official one
* T-Bone currently has 7 ia64 boxes, 3 of which are currently affected to Ubuntu
<elmo> sabdfl: ok
<Kamion> T-Bone: serial console / netboot access would be ideal if possible
<sabdfl> mdz: 3
<mdz> ah
<elmo> mdz: 3 for amd64, powerpc, 5 for i386
<lamont> mdz: i386 currently has 3, ppc 3, amd64 2
<T-Bone> Kamion: that can be easily setup, i'll arrange that with you later
<Kamion> T-Bone: the sort of setup joeyh has where he can drop in a new image and reboot remotely would rock. :)
<lamont> mdz: running buildd, that is.
<sabdfl> we should get porting boxes for ppc and amd64
<Kamion> joeyh has an ia64 box crash-testing d-i out of cron
<T-Bone> Kamion: ok, that shouldn't be an issue
<elmo> sabdfl: ok, will do
<sabdfl> elmo: great, thanks
<sabdfl> t-bone, anything we can do for you now?
<T-Bone> any other questions about IA64?
<sabdfl> i'm clear
<T-Bone> sabdfl: giving me time, providing technical help, find me a job? :^)
* T-Bone ducks
<sabdfl> no word back from jdub, and i think we can assume we won't hear from him till his monring
<sabdfl> in that order? seems reasonable :-)
<mdz> sabdfl: so should we roll a build with the current stuff?
<T-Bone> sabdfl: lol
<mdz> or wait?
<sabdfl> mdz: no, let's get *something* of the new artwork in
<T-Bone> expect report mail from Thierry by tomorrow noon CEST
<mdz> sabdfl: what do we have, and where is it?
<fabbione> T-Bone: where are you located?
<sabdfl> in my homedir on chinstrap is a wartythemes.tgz which has human and humansimple
<sabdfl> that's for the gdm theme
<sabdfl> the human one will have to be renamed back to Human and Human.xml so that existing installations don't break
<sabdfl> jdub was going to do this last night
<sabdfl> so unfortunately we may be repeating work he's done and not published
<sabdfl> also, jdub published initial ubuntu-calendar packages
<sabdfl> keybuk, did you chat to him about those?
<T-Bone> fabbione: i'm in Paris
<Keybuk> the ones he forwarded me the other day looked ok
<Keybuk> structure-wise anyway
<fabbione> T-Bone: oh ok :-)
<sabdfl> ok, let's get those in
<sabdfl> they will definitely need a tweak for descirptions and his other changes
<Keybuk> but the content was just temporary
<sabdfl> mdz: it's your call whether to roll a build now
<mdz> sabdfl: the calendar stuff is not going on the CD, correct?
<sabdfl> mdz: no
<mdz> so we basically need the gdm theme and the gnome splash
<mdz> i.e., a new rev of ubuntu-artwork
<Keybuk> no it's not, or no it is?
<sabdfl> no it's not going on the cd
<Kamion> #include <english-sucks.h>
<fabbione> ok guys.. i am off for today
<sabdfl> Kamion: no
<Keybuk> mdz: make it ubuntu-artwork_4.10
<sabdfl> :-)
<fabbione> cya tomorrow and thanks!
<Kamion> :)
<sabdfl> -0.1
<sabdfl> so final can be -1
<T-Bone> am i clear to go? I have a dinner outside, and i'm already late ;^)
<Kamion> that's always a risky game :)
<mdz> sabdfl: are we replacing the existing gdm theme + gnomesplash, or renaming them?
* lamont needs to understand what more besides ubuntu-artwork he needs to drop on the liveCD to get the non-default gnome-splash
<sabdfl> mdz: the humansimple one has to become Human
<sabdfl> because existing gm installations will be looking for /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human/Human.xml
<mdz> what will we name the current one?
<sabdfl> and we want them all to become the one that is humansimple in that
<sabdfl> HumanCircle
<mdz> humancomplex?
<amu> lamont: /usr/share/pixmaps/splash/
<mdz> ah
<sabdfl> Circle of Friends is in the description
<mdz> who can take care of the ubuntu-artwork update?
<Keybuk> if I've got the artwork, I can do that
<mdz> Keybuk: it's on chinstrap
* T-Bone is off
<lamont> hrm.. what's the image viewer in main?
<sabdfl> eog
<mdz> lamont: testing warty-live-i386.iso
<mdz> 688,748,544 bytes
<sabdfl> isn't that too big?
<mdz> yes
<mdz> thaht's 656M
<dieman_> iiiiinteresting.  gdm sucked in their own Xsession file now
<amu> lamont: gnome-splash.png is default gnome,  ubuntu-splash.png it should be 
<dieman_> thats what 700MB cdrs are for :)
<mako> is this after ttf-baekmuk was cut?
<mdz> lamont: do you have a newer one?
<mdz> I think this was supposed to be +ttf-baekmuk -celestia
<lamont> 20041019-03/warty-live-i386.iso should be what is on cdimage...
<mako> right
<dieman_> heh, missed the board meeting, hmmm
<lamont> 20041019-18 is +ttf-baekmuk -celestia
<mdz> lamont: can you name the files with version numbers in them, please?
<lamont> certainly
<Keybuk> sabdfl: "human" becomes "HumanCircle" and "humansimple" becomes "Human", yes?
<mako> koreans rejoice
<sabdfl> mako, will you post the transcript somewhere for dieman_ and other?
<mdz> lamont: so there is a newer build to be tested, but it isn't on cdimage yet?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: yes
<sabdfl> jdub had additional tweaks planned, but that was the main thing
<mako> sabdfl: a summary or the full transcript?
<mako> i'll do the transcript now
<Keybuk> sabdfl: leaving the Name=Human (Simple) and Name=Human Circle of Friends ?
<sabdfl> mako: full transcript. have you been doing summaries of tb / cc meetings?
<mdz> lamont: my sound devices are still reversed
<sabdfl> Keybuk: i'd prefer something better than human (Simple) but i'm out of entropy :-)(
<mako> sabdfl: i have not yet done a TB summary.. i'm one meting behind on CC meetings but i'm also behind on traffic in general due to the shipping stuff taking priority
* lamont double checks
<dieman_> sabdfl: ive got scrollback like ma
<dieman_> sabdfl: mad
<mdz> lamont: indeed, it seems very much the same experience as the last one
<sabdfl> mako: summary of tb would be very useful but i understand shipit take precedence now
<sabdfl> mdz: would you consider an rc of the live cd tomorrow, rather than a final release?
<mdz> sabdfl: I'd much rather go out all at once
<mdz> what's the hard deadline for shipit?
<sabdfl> ok, your call
<sabdfl> silbs?
<mako> sabdfl: i think it will be reasonable once i can fall back into a routine.. i think all community/technical governnace meetings really need to be summarized
<silbs> db frozen today.  No hard deadline but every day delay past tomorrow = day delay in shipping.
<sabdfl> mako: agreed
<sabdfl> hold on, i think we're going to see a ton of shipit requests when the announcement goes out
<mdz> I think the live CD can be there for tomorrow
<mdz> sabdfl: agreed
<mdz> we should let those queue up a bit
<silbs> sorry - frozen in terms of first 170K orders. Will collect new orders, do second batch
<sabdfl> ok
<lamont> mdz: that's the latest kernel on alextreme.org
<mako> plan is to wait until post announcement to finalize the second batch :)
<silbs> already requests outnumber cds
<mdz> ok, can we close the meeting and take the rest of this to other channels?
<sabdfl> done
<mdz> ok, thanks everyone
<sabdfl> i'd like to say something though
<sabdfl> mdz, you and your team have done a fantastic job on warty
<sabdfl> far exceeded our Easter expectations
<sabdfl> and set a hell of pace for every other distro
<sabdfl> thank you
<mako> amen
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> the community response has been very encouraging; I think we're doing the right things
<sabdfl> Kamion, fabbione, thom, the whole team have been exceptional
<sivang> amen to that , mdz the man :)
<sabdfl> yes, i think this will be a shared load for hoary
<sabdfl> and that has it's own coordination issues :)
<sabdfl> anyhow, well done
<sabdfl> looking forward to the reviews
<mdz> indeed
<pitti> amu: hopefully www.heise.de finally writes about it
<sabdfl> cheers everyone
* sivang thinks this distro is going to have some pretty excellent ones.
<pitti> oh, another thing
<amu> pitti: should be no problem ;) 
<pitti> will it be possible in any way to have a bunch of CDs here in GErmany before Oct 30th?
<pitti> I will be at a Linux fair and like to distribute some CDs :-)
<silbs> pitti: will be very close. Can't promise but we are keeping "high priority" list for immediate shipment. Send details to Mako.
<silbs> pitt: must have commercial mailing address
<pitti> silbs: oh, I don't have
<pitti> silbs: it's not that crucial, though
<amu> pitti: you'll go to Dresden ? 
<pitti> the thing is, if it is not possible to get them by the 30th, I don't really need them
<pitti> amu: I live in Dresden :-)
<pitti> http://2004.linuxinfotag.de/
<mako> pitti: coordinate with me if you want to try :)
<pitti> silbs: I did not order them before because sb told me that the CDs can't be shipped before mid November
<pitti> mako: okay
<pitti> mako: shall I add an extra item in shipit?
<mako> pitti: if you want to order them now it's not too late
<mako> pitti: 1 hour it might be :)
<pitti> mako: shipit or mail?
<mako> pitti: i am finalizing the db output scripts now :)
<mako> pitti: shipit
<mako> pitti: then too me what address you did it under, irc is fine
<pitti> mako: so I just raise my 10 personal CDs to 110 :-)
<mako> pitti: right :)
<pitti> mako: done, martin.pitt@canonical.com
<mako> pitti: sounds good
<pitti> this information day is a nice opportunity to promote and distribute Ubuntu
<amu> pitti: hehe, i think you'll meet peter_e there, just say a hi from me ;) 
<pitti> I'll be there and can show off on my laptop
<pitti> amu: I know him, I was his application manager :-)
<pitti> amu: and we already agreed to meet 
<pitti> amu: I'll forward your greetings
<amu> pitti: ;) cool  
<Keybuk> sabdfl: do the calendar images need to be removed from this ubuntu-artwork package?
<sivang> ahh...don't take the calander images down...;)
<Keybuk> sivang: is ending up in another package
<sivang> Keybuk : ok..
<sabdfl> Keybuk: erm.. YES!
<Keybuk> ok, then I got it right :p
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-31
<bhuvan> sabdfl is there in #launchpad ?
<Seveas> ogra, ack
<sabdfl> evening all
<Seveas> hi sabdfl 
<zakame> hey sabdfl 
<ajmitch> hi
<spayne> there you go
<ogra> yay sabdfl 
<spayne> hey sabdfl 
<ivoks> hi sabdfl 
<panickedthumb> ello
<dholbach> hi sabdfl :)
<Seveas> the boss is here, all behave now...
<sabdfl> mdz and i have a call in 30 mins
<neuro|laptop> ah, the lesser known "hi flood"
<ivoks> i can imagine his screen blinking :)
<BayR00t> ivoks & edgar: ciao
<sabdfl> elmo? Kamion?
<zakame> neuro|laptop: haha
<ogra> sabdfl, elmo is here, Kamion didnt speak up yet
<smurf> sabdfl: elmo just joined, so unless he does that by cronjob I assume he's here ;-)
<Kamion> hi, sorry, had totally forgotten about the meeting
<spayne> Kamion: lol
<Seveas> Kamion, welcome anyway :)
<panickedthumb> kamion: woops
<ogra> Kamion, hey, but you made it ;)
<Kamion> elmo: thanks for the sms
<panickedthumb> :)
<Seveas> looks like we have 3 CC members so we can almost start
<Seveas> Hello everybody, welcome to the Community Council Meeting. The agenda for today can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda. All member candidates, make sure your wikipage is up-to-date and prepare a 3 line introduction (which you will have to give in this channel) describing your past contributions to Ubuntu, your plans and your vision of the Ubuntu feature.
<Seveas> Everybody who has an item on the agenda please prepare a few lines describing it. LocoTeam leaders on the agenda, prepare a few lines in which you describe the status of your team, what your team is currently doing and what the plans are.
<keyes_PLF> Can we speak about PLF (a repository for illegal and litigious stuff like w32codecs or libdvdcss) now?
<Seveas> keyes_PLF, no
<ogra> is the agenda still from last meeting ? 
<Seveas> ogra, no it's updated
<keyes_PLF> thanks ...
<ogra> really, looks the same somehow
<ogra> modulo one or two items
<Seveas> ogra, last week lots of people did not show up
<vuntz> keyes_PLF: it needs to be in the agenda
<sabdfl> keyes_PLF: could you add that to the next agenda?
<keyes_PLF> ... agenda?
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<keyes_PLF> when?
<panickedthumb> yeah that
<zakame> indeed, last was a passover for NMs...
<Seveas> Let's all state our name for the record
<ogra> lest go on, sabdfl has to leave soon
* Seveas === Dennis Kaarsemaker
* ivoks is Ante Karamatic
* Yann2 Yann Hamon
* nalioth is Marek Spruell
<sabdfl> in two weeks time, though i will be in montreal with the launchpad team
* panickedthumb is Travis Newman
* ogra is OliverGrawert
* david`l is David Larlet
* selinium James Thomas
<Riddell> Jonathan Riddell
* mvo is michael vogt
* sabdfl is MarkShuttleworth
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
* jbailey is JeffBailey
* neuro|laptop is William Anderson
* smurf is Matthias Urllichs
* spayne is Seb Payne
* zakame is Zak Elep
* edgar is Edgar Bursic
* Kamion is Colin Watson
* BayR00t is IvicaPetrinic
<Seveas> Since sabdfl has to leave soon, shall we start with member candidates?
* doko is Matthias Klose
* deresh is Kreso Kunjas
<sabdfl> perhaps we should rather handle the other business?
* vuntz == Vincent Untz
<Yann2> mrf
<Seveas> fine by me too, that means first up is the forums complaint
<Yann2> quite late here, but if you wish ^ ^
<ompaul> ompaul Paul O'Malley
<bhuvan> bhuvan = Bhuvaneswaran
* mdz is MattZimmerman
* seb128 == Sebastien Bacher
* tristanmike is Phonse Walsh
* alexissoft is alexis robert
<Yann2> well is there any special  reason to let other business go first this time? :(
<Seveas> From the forums team only panickedthumb has arrived
<sabdfl> ok, forums, then yann2, then other business, then other members
<neuro|laptop> mmm, metabusiness :)
<sabdfl> Yann2: mdz and i have distro conference calls in 19 minutes
<Kamion> Yann2: yes it's very late for us too
<Yann2> okok :)
<sabdfl> planning for UBZ... MontrealMadnessBegins
<panickedthumb> neither andrew (azz) nor jdodson can show up this time
<mdz> and after 8 hours of calls already, we are eager to finish ;-)
<ogra> sabdfl, dunno if it makes sense to talk about the forums if only one guy is here
<Seveas> panickedthumb, neither has ubuntugeek or any other person
<Kamion> this happened last week too
<Seveas> please make sure they are here next time, we should defer for now imho
<panickedthumb> FLeiXius is here, did he speak up?
<sabdfl> so, the first links suggests good progress on an appropriate use policy for the forums
<Kamion> there was only arzajac (I think)
<panickedthumb> We should defer because Ryan said he can't come because of work
<panickedthumb> but 
<Seveas> but...?
<panickedthumb> one thing we at least wanted to do is attempt to get a meeting time (whether next cc meeting or not) that we can hopefully all get to
<bhuvan> +1
<Seveas> panickedthumb, do you have a proposal now?
<sabdfl> well, with many folks in montreal next week, we should be able to do a different timezone
<panickedthumb> true
<panickedthumb> that will help a lot
<Seveas> sabdfl, suggestions?
<panickedthumb> I don't have a proposal, at least  not a separate one from the one already up
<ogra> sabdfl, next week is TB, isnt it ? 
<panickedthumb> I'm just hoping w can plan a better time
<sabdfl> Seveas: will you coordinate with cvd and ubuntugeek to setup a forums meeting for a morning next week wed/thu
<sabdfl> ogra: special meeting is called for, i think
<Seveas> sabdfl, I will
<ogra> ah, yes
<sabdfl> Seveas: CC, Forums admins, interested parties, here
<panickedthumb> sabdfl, I don't think any morning is good for a lot of us because of work
<Seveas> ok, move on to Yann2 now?
<Seveas> panickedthumb, we'll settle on a date that is good for the forums team
<sabdfl> panickedthumb: we can be flexible, nominate slots, people can say which they can make, we'll take the best one, done
<sabdfl> Yann2: go
<Yann2> I'm Yann HAMON from the french Ubuntu team.  I'm 21 years old, 3rd year student in computer science at a french/german institute: [WWW]  Isfates
<Yann2> I started the french Ubuntu Locoteam by november 2004 with DavidLarlet. I'm the webmaster of that website with him, and we try to get the different teams (Rosetta, wiki, forum, planet) coordinated.
<Yann2> I'm also operator on the #ubuntu-fr@freenode channel, making some support and trying to keep that channel as peaceful as it uses to be.
<Yann2> David and I also do some advocacy for Ubuntu in France; Ubuntu-fr was for example represented at the "Fte de l'humanit" near Paris (see [WWW]  http://www.ubuntu-fr.org/photos/2005-09-12_fete_huma/ )
<david`l> is it possible for me to be with Yann2 ? (we are linked with ubuntu-fr youy know)
<panickedthumb> sabdfl, sounds great
<sabdfl> Yann2: is it difficult to keep the channel peacefull?
<Seveas> Yann2, how is the not-for-profit-organization thing going?
<Yann2> sabdfl > it once was ^^
<Yann2> Seveas > we're waiting to be ubuntu members for that ;)
<Seveas> ok, cool
<Seveas> Yann2 and david`l have done a good job on ubuntu-fr.org (except that some parts don't work in IE ;))
<ivoks> Seveas: that's a very good job then :)
<Seveas> The french Ubuntu community looks alive too, so nice job there
<smurf> +1 for yann from me, he has been very helpful getting hosting and donations for our teams organized
<ogra> Seveas, we use png everywhere on the ubuntu pages ;) 
<sabdfl> site looks very nice. Yann2 is that mostly your work?
<Seveas> ogra, it's the map stuff
<ogra> tsk
<Yann2> sabdfl > not reeally, I paid the design in beers ;)
<Seveas> you should have paid in Ubuntu CDs
<Yann2> (just a hint to this, people are selling Ubuntu Cds in large quantities here)
<neuro|laptop> CDs don't taste as good as beer tho :)
<Yann2> (mostly at install parties and conferences :( )
<spayne> neuro|laptop: very very true
<Seveas> sabdfl, elmo, Kamion +1/0/-1 on Yann2? 
<Kamion> Yann2: there was some discussion a while back about the ubuntu europe thing, with respect to trademarks and such; how's the discussion on that going?
<Kamion> Seveas: wait
<Seveas> Kamion, sorry
<Belutz> sorry i'm late, me = Andi Darmawan
<Kamion> (yeah, I know I should be up-to-date on that discussion myself, but ...)
<Yann2> Kamion > abandonned, but we're actually setting up a ubuntu-fr organisation...
<Yann2> :)
<Kamion> ah, interesting
<sabdfl> +1 from me on Yann
<Seveas> Yann2, when that's finished, a report of what you did would probably be useful for other locoteams
<sabdfl> Yann2: good work on the web site and local community, thanks for your energy!
<Yann2> we'll certainly set up some kind of agreement between de/fr too, as we probably need a common bank account, we have to plan a de/fr meeting soon
<Yann2> Seveas > will do
<sabdfl> be careful, when you are handling donated funds, it requires lots of care, ok?
<Kamion> +1 on Yann2, echoing sabdfl's advice :)
<smurf> -de not-for-profit set-up is progressing, we'll complete that this year
<ogra> elmo, ?
<sabdfl> raise any issues here sooner rather than later, if something is going to blow up i'd rather know early
<smurf> sabdfl: exactly
<Yann2> sabdfl > that's the reason we want to create the organisation, the monney actually belongs to smurf and I :p
<sabdfl> ok
<Yann2> ok
<sabdfl> next, any other business?
<ogra> mjg59 voting ?
<elmo> ack for yann
<Yann2> i'm done ^^ :)
<Seveas> Yann2, congratz
<neuro|laptop> spayne's here for his member vote too
<vuntz> congrats, Yann2 :-)
<Yann2> \o/ :)
<spayne> well done Yann2 
<david`l> flicitations Yann2 :)
<dholbach> welcome Yann2 
<Kamion> can somebody else handle the launchpad registration stuff this week? my mouse is acting up and operating a web application is kind of PAIN right now
<neuro|laptop> congrats Yann2 
<spayne> yes, i'm here for membership as well
<seb128> congrats Yann2
<Seveas> sabdfl, one point from me: IRC registration is finally moing forward
<panickedthumb> congrats yahh
* vuntz hugs Yann2
<zakame> w00t Yann2 !
<panickedthumb> I mean Yann
<ogra> congrats Yann2 
<seb128> Yann2: welcome :)
<spayne> let me know when you need me :)
<Seveas> spayne, you'll have to be deferred, sabdfl has to leave
<ivoks> Yann2: yay! ;)
<spayne> Seveas: what!
<sabdfl> no no
<sabdfl> sec
<spayne> Seveas: i can't make the next one :(
<Seveas> spayne, there will always be other meetings :)
<Kamion> Seveas: hold up a second, we're just talking about that
<Seveas> Kamion, ok
<Kamion> Seveas: (... but don't go away ...)
<sabdfl> ok, we are going to try something new
<sabdfl> for the purposes of approving membership applications, i'd like to delegate a vote to each of smurf, seveas and dholbach
<Seveas> Kamion, i'm not leaving, I just tried to rush this half hour so we could treat a lot while sabdfl was around :)
<ogra> wow
<Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for the trust in us
<spayne> wow! thanks sabdfl 
<dholbach> sabdfl: thank you
<ivoks> nice :)
* smurf seconds seveas
<sabdfl> Seveas: if you could mail the -devel list with the details of any new members approved, that would be appreciated, cc CC ;-)
<Kamion> I think this is just for this time round while we're short on board members, though I could be wrong there
<smurf> sabdfl: Just for thi meeting?
<neuro|laptop> spayne: quick, give biscuits to Seveas, smurf and dholbach :>
<Seveas> sabdfl, sure
* spayne gets the biscuits, pies and beer out and passes them around
<Kamion> and we'll see how well it works anyway
<sabdfl> smurf: for now, but i think it would be good to set up a more regular set of membership-interview meetings, so the CC can focus on issues like the forums, IRC registration, processes etc
<sabdfl> let's discuss that at UBZ?
<smurf> sabdfl: sure
<dholbach> yeah, good idea
<ivoks> +1
<spayne> sabdfl: sounds like a good idea
<Seveas> sabdfl, rad, too bad I can't make it to UBZ though
<sabdfl> i see a lot of proposed members at https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+members so clearly we need to be able to accommodate them
<ajmitch> shall the grill^Winterviewing proceed then?
<spayne> well, i'm here and willing :)
<ogra> sabdfl, any quick word on mjg59 before you leave ? he's on the agenda ...
<sabdfl> ogra: voting continues till the...
<panickedthumb> lol ajmitch
<ogra> ahh, k
<Seveas> ogra, that's an error of mine
<jbailey> The poll is still broken for me.
<sabdfl> 29th
<jbailey> Bug 3164 in LP is still onot fixed for that.
<ivoks> Seveas: when are loco teams on agenda?
<jbailey> I hope it will be before the voting stops.
<sabdfl> jbailey: broken for you?
<Seveas> I propose that we continue the meeting from the top of the agenda
<ajmitch> sabdfl: a few of them are existing members who aren't on the launchpad team
<jbailey> sabdfl: Yup, launchpad error.  The link is in the email (which is why it's marked confidential)
<Seveas> sabdfl, once again thanks for the trust in smurf dholbach and myself
<jbailey> sabdfl: I tested it an hour or two ago and I still get an error page.
<smurf> Seveas: seconded
<sabdfl> jbailey: ok, i will try to take care of it. does it affect lots of people?
<spayne> just let me know when you're ready for me
<Seveas> ErdalRonahi / JanHusar / ZarulSharin, are you around?
<jbailey> sabdfl: I don't know off hand.  I'd be a bit worried that it did, but I didn't see others while searching.
<Seveas> not around I suppose?
<Seveas> ivoks, the stage is yours
<ivoks> :/
<ivoks> Seveas: thanks
<sabdfl> cheers all
<spayne> thanks sabdfl 
<ogra> bye sabdfl 
<panickedthumb> cheers
<ivoks> whole -hr team is here, by name kreso_ edgar 
<Seveas> cheers sabdfl 
<neuro|laptop> cya sabdfl 
<sabdfl> jbailey: i will land a fix for cherrypicking into production asap
<ivoks> bye sabdfl 
<zakame> bye sabdfl 
<jbailey> sabdfl: Tx.
<dholbach> *wave sabdfl*
<BayR00t> bye sabdfl, cu
<ivoks> and BayR00t :)
<Seveas> ivoks, -hr? I though croatia was -cr?
<keyes_PLF> good bye ...
<ivoks> Seveas: nope, we are -hr
* BayR00t is here
<Seveas> #
<Seveas> CroatianTeam (Contact: AnteKaramatic)
<Seveas> #
<ivoks> yes
<ivoks> HR is id for croatia
<Seveas> ah, ok
<smurf> Seveas: .cr is Costa Rica
<Seveas> well, what's up in eastern europe?
<BayR00t> croatia = english/latin name for hrvatska (.hr)
<ivoks> so, we are setting up ubuntu.grad.hr
<dholbach> ivoks: how many croatian people are on irc regularly? (not in this meeting :))
<ivoks> dholbach: not many, but that will change soon
<spayne> have i got time to just nip away from  a few minutes
<ivoks> we have few good supporters that aren't in our team
<ivoks> but could join very soon
* ogra sees a lot in #edubuntu 
<spayne> before you need me?
<dholbach> you adopted an irc channel already?
<Kamion> ivoks: what'll ubuntu.grad.hr be?
<ivoks> dholbach: yes ubuntu-hr, it's registred
<ivoks> Kamion: web portal with wiki and forums
<ivoks> Kamion: i'm even thinking on creating local mirror
<BayR00t> Kamion: and news
<Seveas> ivoks, poke smurf to forward ubuntu-hr.org to your site
<ivoks> since hr.archive.ubuntu.com is slower then de. mirror
<Kamion> hr.archive == archive at the moment
<ivoks> Seveas: i wanted to ask that yes
<ivoks> Kamion: i know, i'm hopping to change that
<smurf> ivoks: just send me an email with the details
<Kamion> if you get a mirror set up with reasonable bandwidth, contact Znarl, who runs our mirror network, and that can be updated
<ivoks> smurf: is it possible to get MX record too? :)
<ivoks> Kamion: gigabit bandwith
<smurf> ivoks: sure, just tell me where it should point to
<Kamion> I believe that's adequate, but talk to Znarl for requirements
<ivoks> smurf: ok
<ivoks> Kamion: ok
<ivoks> so, if it's needed, team can introduce themselfs
<ivoks> acctually, members of team :)
<Seveas> what are your plans apart from the website?
<ivoks> marketing
<Seveas> (and the archive)
<ivoks> for a start just being noisy
<ivoks> :)
<Seveas> hehe, noise works, really :)
<Kamion> mm, we often ask people about local user-group organisation and the like
<ivoks> localisation is our main objective
<edgar> workshops
<Seveas> Kamion, you stole my next question ;)
<ivoks> :)
<ivoks> sorry... wifi connection... laggy
<Seveas> ivoks, what is the status of this sort of interaction?
<ivoks> we have very good linux user group (http://www.linux.hr)
<spayne> Seveas: have i got time to nip away for a few minutes before you need me?
<Seveas> spayne, no, you're next
<ivoks> Seveas: there are many conferences happening in last two-three years
<spayne> Seveas: ok - i can wait. thanks
<ivoks> beside that there are even more locally based happenings
<Seveas> cool
<ivoks> edgar and BayR00t can tell you about their acctivity in pula
<dholbach> ivoks: will the team be at those conferences?
<dholbach> ah ok
* BayR00t and edgar are part of the Monteparadiso HackLab
<ivoks> dholbach: of course
<zakame> wow
<BayR00t> we hosted first TransHackMeeting last year
<BayR00t> cooperate with hacklabs in italy, amsterdam, france etc
<ivoks> dholbach: we have few professionals for web, system administration in team
* vuntz goes to bed: good night everyone
<Seveas> nn vuntzZz 
<ivoks> dholbach: so we could even go fruther from loclteam
<ivoks> locoteam
<Seveas> ivoks, sounds good
<smurf> ivoks: sounds like you've got goals. Keep after them ;-)
<ivoks> smurf: sure we do
<edgar> we have 15 machines on Ubuntu, workshops, kids, etc...
<BayR00t> been talking with eben moglesn, lawrence lessig etc ;)
<Seveas> Any more questions for the 'defendants'?
<BayR00t> hopefuly we'll organize croatian first hackmeeting
<Kamion> I'm happy, seems to be plenty of local organisation and energy
<Kamion> good work, keep it up, etc. :-)
<BayR00t> thx
<ivoks> :)
<Seveas> yeah, +1 on that
<dholbach> yeah, i'm quite happy too
<kreso_> we are all trying, kamion
<Seveas> keep us posted
<ivoks> Seveas: of course
<Seveas> Next up: Seb Payne
<dholbach> ivoks: is your blog on planet ubuntu already?
<ivoks> Seveas: i'm here every day :)
<ivoks> dholbach: if you didn't saw my new snowboard - then no :)
<Seveas> ivoks, ping jdub
<Seveas> let the planet grow :)
<ajmitch> spayne went out for a few minutes, right?
<ivoks> i allready did... will do that again..
<Kamion> dholbach: how's spayne been doing in motu?
<dholbach> ivoks: yes ,talk to jdub, so we know what's going on in croatia
<ivoks> dholbach: ok
<Seveas> ChrisCole around?
<panickedthumb> ok I gotta run guys. Good luck to everyone up for membership, congrats to anyone who gets it. Talk to you all later.
<dholbach> Kamion: he packaged resapplet and was quite communicative in our channel
<BayR00t> greeting from croatia, thx for having us. ciao
<dholbach> Kamion: afaik he worked on a couple of other packages, which are not in ubuntu yet
<spayne> here
<spayne> right
<spayne> Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SebPayne. Hi All. My name is Seb Payne. 16. in England. Using Ubuntu since December 2004. Made various contributions in the form of documentation, packaging and debugging. My main thing I enjoy (and resonabally good at) is documentation which is described on my Wiki page. I have also worked with the Novell teams on Hula and iFolder to get them building on Ubuntu, when they had previously not wor
<spayne> whoops! sorry it is a bit long
<dholbach> spayne: did you get in contact with the ubuntu documentation project already?
* kreso_ has to leave to. its damn late overher in croatia...and im working in the morning :)
<Kamion> I was about to ask that :)
<Seveas> anyone from docteam who can vouch for spayne ?
<Seveas> ah damn - 3 souls one mind... and i am the slowest...
<spayne> i have not done enough work yet to join the docteam
<dholbach> spayne: because i saw your blog and liked the style of writing / depicting :)
<Kamion> the bulk of Seb's contributions seem to be in documentation so far
<Yann2> chui dj all voir un match  Lens ^^
<dholbach> ... / cheerleading :)
<Yann2> oups
<Yann2> wrong chan sorry ;)
<spayne> i am trying to get things from other sources and get them onto the Ubuntu Wiki
<spayne> like from the Hula, iFolder wiki for example
<Seveas> nice
<Kamion> though eep, that mono/hoary howto is evil :)
<spayne> to help users as it is rather confusing
<ajmitch> spayne: some of the documentation could do with fixes though
<spayne> Kamion: i knew and know it is evil
<ajmitch> like avoiding installing source into /usr :)
<segfault> is the meeting already over?
<Seveas> spayne, be sure you don't violate licenses when you copy other peoples work
<Kamion> spayne: yeah, I followed the link for that reason ;)
<Seveas> segfault, no
<Kamion> segfault: no, in progress
<segfault> ah, thank god
<segfault> :)
<dholbach> spayne: what do you think about getting the mono stuff into the distro properly?
<spayne> Seveas: i always check with people
<ogra> dholbach ??
<dholbach> erm, maybe i wasnt explicit enough:
<ogra> dholbach, whats wrong with mono ?
<ogra> apps ?
<spayne> dholbach: i think it is an excellent idea but we must be careful. Mono may still have problems but I love Mono and there are some excellent guys working on it
<spayne> dholbach: i believe that Beagle should be standard on Dapper
<spayne> dholbach: and fully intergrated into the desktop - as in SUSE to make Ubuntu stand out
<Seveas> spayne, it just tried to eat jdubs harddrive, so it's clearly not mature enough ;)
<ogra> beagle is a pain on my laptop HD ...
<Kamion> spayne: what's this Evolution Colt thing you mention in your wiki page?
<dholbach> yeah, that'd be nice
<ogra> but f-spot should really replace gthumb one day
<spayne> ogra: totally agreed
<spayne> Kamion: it is my own personal business
<Kamion> ah
<spayne> Kamion: i give advice and reports on how to intergrate Open Source software into current systemns
<ajmitch> ogra: definitely, and I'm not biased in any way whatsoever
<ogra> heh
<spayne> Kamion: i have had lots of success with home users
<spayne> Kamion: small business again, good
<dholbach> spayne: but about ifolder and other mono-packages i don't yet know... do you think we can get them better working in the distro?
<ogra> ajmitch, its te only app that can import pics from my casio exilim i bought yesterday
<spayne> dholbach: iFolder is a trickey one
<ajmitch> dholbach: once ifolder's licensing is sorted :)
<spayne> dholbach: as part of it is non-FOSS
<ajmitch> dholbach: but that's another topic altogether
<Seveas> spayne, you might want to consider joining the marketing team
<dholbach> ahhh, thaT's the problem
<dholbach> i see
<Kamion> spayne: nice - good Ubuntu take-up?
<spayne> dholbach: but from what i heard, by Dapper the whole thing will be FOSS
<spayne> Kamion: yes, very
<spayne> Kamion: i am working on a product at the moment called Evolution Desktop
<ajmitch> spayne: have you worked with the mono team at all?
<Kamion> the more small businesses of that kind there are to act as a bridge to end users, the better
<spayne> ajmitch: i'm packaging Dopi at the moment so i am working with slomo and tseng
<spayne> Evolution Desktop will provide our themeing and extra packages for those who don't have broadband
<spayne> we are looking at providing Mac Minis with Ubuntu and OS X
<spayne> as this is a totally awesome package
<spayne> i have also done some research on GNOME
<spayne> with people of my own age
<spayne> and how they view Ubuntu and GNOME
<spayne> and got some interesting results which I hope to publish in the future
<spayne> i tried to start the TeenGNOME project to do this
<smurf> spayne: sounds like you've got a full plate, keep it up ;-)
<spayne> but not had much time at the moment, with one thing and another
<Seveas> Ok, i'd like to start the voting with a 0 -- I'd like to see spaynes documentations efforts be integrated into the wiki before giving a +1, but I don't wanna give a -1 either
<spayne> smurf: very much so yes :)
<spayne> Seveas: what do i need?
<spayne> hi tseng
<Seveas> spayne, you need a majority of the temporary CC to vote in favor, i'm staying neutral :)
<spayne> Seveas: i can understand :)
<Seveas> smurf, dholbach, Kamion, elmo?
<smurf> +1 from me, I'm confident he'll keep up the good work
<ogra> just to give an additional voice, spayne is also active in #ubuntu-motu since quite a while
<spayne> thanks ogra :)
<ogra> :)
<Kamion> I don't have a problem with spayne for membership - seems that you need a fair bit more experience in MOTU before any kind of maintainership decision, but that's a different matter. Working with the docteam and/or MOTU for a while would be great.
<dholbach> spayne: i like you enthusiasm and that you're looking into many teams. i'm happy to give a +1, if you promise to make the ubuntu doc team even harder :-)
<spayne> dholbach: i will work my little socks off :)
<Seveas> ok, that's 3 points already
<dholbach> spayne: that sounds good :)
<Seveas> spayne, unofficially welcome on board, we're just waiting for elmo to finish the voting :)
<spayne> lol
<Seveas> in the mean time: zyga you're up
<elmo> spayne: I'm a little confused by your flip-flop attitude to ubuntu, and how you distro-hop
<spayne> elmo: that was some time ago :)
<elmo> spayne: oh?
<spayne> elmo: in the past few months, i've really stuck with Ubuntu
<spayne> elmo: i do have a life outside my blog FYI ;)
<spayne> elmo: i may have experimented with other things
<elmo> spayne: umm, not being funny dude, but I've seen you say on #hula "except I no longer use Ubuntu"... less than a month ago
<elmo> just to pick a random example
<spayne> elmo: a lot can happen in a month
<spayne> elmo: obviously, if i become a member, i am not going to "flip-flop" around
<Seveas> <spayne> elmo: in the past few months, i've really stuck with Ubuntu
<Seveas> <spayne> elmo: a lot can happen in a month
<spayne> elmo: if i have responsonsibilities
<spayne> elmo: i will carry them out to the best of my nature
<spayne> or is that ability
<elmo> well, hmm, I'm still confused sorry - I'm going to abstain on this one; happy to be proved wrong
<Kamion> membership's a combination of recognising ongoing contribution to Ubuntu, and publicly acknowledging people as members of the community
<Kamion> the latter does convey a responsibility in that other people see you as a representative of Ubuntu in some contexts
<Seveas> ok, voting is over, 3 in favor and 2 abstain
<Seveas> spayne, welcome aboard
<spayne> thanks guys!
<Kamion> I'm a bit concerned, would like to keep an eye on how this goes
<neuro|laptop> woo
<spayne> thanks everyone!
<neuro|laptop> congrats spayne 
<Seveas> Kamion, you mean this voting system or spaynes approval?
<neuro|laptop> just keep up the good work and you'll have nothing to worry about
* spayne would like to say that he WILL put all of his efforts into helping Ubuntu
<Kamion> Seveas: spayne's approval with some of the weird inconsistencies above
<Kamion> if he's keeping up the good work, then obviously there's nothing to complain about :)
<Seveas> ack
<Seveas> spayne, would you mind coming back in a month and give a small progress report?
<dholbach> yeah, that'd be nice
<spayne> Seveas: not bother at all
<Seveas> ok, noted
<Seveas> david`lap, then the stage is now yours
* spayne puts it into his calendar
<smurf> spayne: in other words, expect the Spanish Inquisition if you don't live up to the job
<Seveas> rofl :)
<spayne> smurf: my membership will be renounced?
<smurf> spayne: I cannot decide that
<neuro|laptop> neeeeooooooobody expects the ubuntu inquisition
<spayne> smurf: i am very happy with that because i am going to work hard
<Seveas> david`lap..?
<david`lap> yes
<tseng> neuro|laptop: its helpful to keep noise to a minimum so things can proceed more quickly. thanks.
<david`lap> I'm David Larlet from the french locoteam. I'm 23 years old and I'm doing a masters' in bio-informatics in Paris.
<david`lap> I'm not a developer but I try to help users and to spread ubuntu as possible as I can, I'm ubuntu-fr co-founder with yann and I organize release and install parties in Paris. 
<david`lap> I've setup servers for ubuntu-fr/de and I hope we can create the ubuntu-fr not-for-profit association soon.
<david`lap> One of my secret goal is to develop an rss aggregator in python, maybe for gnome but it's still a project (for the moment we are two and we write future features on a wiki) and I need to find more time but stay tunned ;)
* mvo goes to sleep now
<Seveas> nn mvo 
<ogra> night        mvo
<zakame> bye mvo 
<mvo> night all
<Seveas> david`lap, you were the guy who Yann2 paid in beers for the design?
<Yann2> nope ;)
<david`lap> no :)
<smurf> david`lap: what's happening in the -fr locoteam / ubuntu-fr.org site?
<Seveas> david`lap, then please elaborate a bit more about your role in the #ubuntu-fr team
<Yann2> he's actually the co-founder - we're splitting our tasks in 2 :)
<david`lap> Seveas, I'm with Yann2 for all tasks
<Yann2> in fact he does quite the same work as I do
<david`lap> and I try to organize events in Paris too
<Seveas> how many members does your locoteam have, and how many users are using your forum ?
<david`lap> smurf, I don't understand
<Yann2> Seveas > define member
<Yann2> about 5000 users on the forum
<david`lap> 6000 Yann2 ;)
<david`lap> 110 000 posts
<Seveas> not bad
<dholbach> david`lap: you said you help people. is that in #ubuntu-fr? #ubuntu? on mailing lists? or people around the block?
<david`lap> about 10000 visits a day
<ogra> seb128, a word from a french guy ? 
<david`lap> dholbach, on #ubuntu-fr of course, on mailing-list and on the forum too
<dholbach> yeah, who can speak up for david`lap?
<david`lap> more over I coordinate french documentation
<Yann2> david also is in charge for setting up the servers, he's the one running to the datacenter every two weeks :D
<Seveas> david`lap, where can we find this documentation?
<david`lap> yes unfortunatly...
<david`lap> Seveas, http://wiki.ubuntu-fr.org/accueil
<seb128> ogra: they are both doing a great job
<seb128> ubuntu-fr rocks
<ogra> sounds good :)
<david`lap> and we try to coordinate french documentation and translations with others team (kde, gnome...)
<Seveas> cool
<dholbach> david`lap: how many guys are you in paris?
<david`lap> dholbach, about 12 at the last breezy party 
<dholbach> cool
<david`lap> yes really
<Seveas> +1 from me
<dholbach> keep pushing them to the conferences / install parties :)
<smurf> +1 from me also
<david`lap> dholbach, ok I will do
<Seveas> 2 down, 3 to go
<dholbach> one final question: do you see much of the ubuntu-fr folks in some ubuntu team soon?
<david`lap> dholbach, about my personal contributions you can find it on http://www.biologeek.com/journal/index.php/Ubuntu but it's in french...
<Yann2> dholbach > we're actually discussing that
<Yann2> that needs to be defined anyway for the trademark agreemend
<seb128> david`lap: dholbach loves french :)
<dholbach> like the artwork team, the MOTUs, the doc team, the translators, ...
<Yann2> oh you meant that :)
<Seveas> killall evolution
<Seveas> meh, wrong window
<Yann2> dholbach > principally translator and docteam, yes
<zakame> haha
<ogra> Seveas, filed a bug ? ;)
<david`lap> dholbach, I'm a beginner in python but I do my best
<seb128> Seveas: evolution --force-shutdown rather
<david`lap> I've a project and I hope it's not a vaporware
<dholbach> cool, very nice - so, yeah, i'm quite happy to see david`lap as a member too :)
<Seveas> ok, 3 down
<david`lap> thanks a lot
<Seveas> kamion and elmo?
<Kamion> sorry, was distracted by CD build crap
<Seveas> np
* dholbach comforts Kamion 
<spayne> thanks again
<spayne> night all
<ogra> night spayne 
<zakame> bye spayne 
<Kamion> +1 based on lots of approving comments from people I know above
<Seveas> 4 down ;)
<spayne> thanks again guys
<Seveas> zakame, you're up next, please prepare your 3-line intro while we wait for elmos vote
<zakame> Seveas: ok
<Seveas> elmo, ping?
<Seveas> Ping Timeout - since we have 4 in favor: welcome abourd david`lap! zakame, you're up.
<david`lap> great, thank you all
<seb128> congrats david`lap
<zakame> I'm Zak B. Elep, returning new candidate from 27/9.  I've turned 21 last September 22, and I've been using GNU/Linux for more than 2 years now, starting with Debian and now on Ubuntu.  My current work for Ubuntu includes localization to Tagalog, packaging Lighttpd, documenting my experience with the Conexant HSF modem, and coordinating with people in Ubuntu-PH.
<zakame> Updates since last application: First, as aboutubuntu is now completed (in fact in Breezy already,) now translating the BIG faqguide (with some of the FilipinoDocumentation pages on the side ;).  Second, my lighttpd packaging is almost done, fixing a new ./debian and finalizing the minimal default configuration: hopefully I'll be able to bring it to REVU today for MOTU scrutiny ;)  Third, I've reported 5 bugs at LP, 3 of them already fixed :)
<zakame> .  Lastly, I've written down my experience on getting the Conexant HSF modem to work on Ubuntu, and am editing the wiki page as we chat ;)  I am also involved in formalizing Ubuntu-PH, setting TeamGoals as well as brainstorming on what to do with the ubuntu-ph website; in fact we'll have a meeting tonight to discuss this.
<zakame> My vision: In 2 to 5 years I want to see Ubuntu as a major OS in .ph, speaking Tagalog and supporting applications for education---already I'm seeing this happening via Edubuntu, and at the back of my mind I'm formulating courseware for using ubuntu in grade schools.
<Seveas> zakame, doesn't look bad, have you had contact with the MOTU about your packaging?
<ogra> .ph is phillipines ?
<Seveas> yes
<zakame> ogra: yep
<Kamion> zakame: have you done much coordination with the Debian Tagalog translators? I notice clock-setup is fully translated into Tagalog in d-i trunk, although I haven't checked if it matches your translations in Rosetta
<dholbach> Seveas: yeah, he's in #ubuntu-motu for quite some days now
<Seveas> ok, good 
<zakame> Seveas: yes, but just an announce iirc in UniverseCandidates...
<zakame> ... and yes, in #-motu
<zakame> Kamion: yes, but the one in d-i trunk iirc was not the right translation
<Kamion> zakame: it would be worth coordinating with them to get it matching up - I (as installer guy) generally try not to end up as the go-between for debates between translators in languages I don't speak :-)
<dholbach> who of the motu crew worked a bit with you, zakame?
<Seveas> is there anyone from .ph who can vouch for zakames translation work?
<zakame> Kamion: I am working with eric pareja (pusakat) in debian-tl on this :)
<Kamion> zakame: great, thanks
<zakame> Seveas: I wish jsgotangco was here :(
<Seveas> yeah, me too, without anyone to back up your statements deciding will be hard
<dholbach> zakame: are you mail@bluefireworks.net?
<zakame> dholbach: no, zakame@spunge.org
<dholbach> hrm
<dholbach> because lighttpd on REVU got uploaded by mail@bluefireworks.net
<zakame> hmmm... somebody beat me to it?
<Seveas> lol :)
<zakame> dholbach: I'm a bit delayed on lighttpd because I want to implement something like apache2's modular site configuration
<Kamion> jsgotangco owns the lp ubuntu-l10n-tl team and zakame's a member of it, so presumably he at least approved that :)
<Seveas> I'm leaning towards a +1
<zakame> Kamion: yep, Jerome got me into all this after LinuxWorld Philippines :))
<tseng> dholbach: two makes a team.
<ogra> tseng++
<zakame> I was particularly impressed with Edubuntu, and I want to work on that after faqguide :)
<ogra> YAY !!!
<dholbach> apart from the packaging, i remember you showing up at the bug day :)
<zyga> re
* ogra would give a +1 for that if he could
<zyga> darn I've fallen asleep
<Seveas> How about a +1 and a request for a progress report, just like spayne?
<zyga> is the meeting over?
<Seveas> zyga, not yet
<Kamion> +1 for zakame as far as I'm concerned after reading through some of the links and list archives
<zyga> :-)
<Kamion> I don't feel a big need for a progress report
<Seveas> ok
<zakame> dholbach: yeah... the channel was awfully silent when I was there though... or it could be just dialup lag
<dholbach> yeah, based on motu/bug activity, i'll give +1 too
* zyga reads backlog *quicky*
<smurf> +1 from me, likewise
<Seveas> ok, that makes 4
<tseng> +1 for #-motu
<tseng> oh :)
<Seveas> I'm guessing elmo won't return
* zyga is ZygmuntKrynicki (for the record)
<ivoks> bye all
<dholbach> night ante
<ogra> night ivoks 
<zakame> bye ivoks :D
<Seveas> ok, zakame welcome aboard!
<Seveas> and make ogra happy with edubuntu ;)
<ogra> welcome zakame :)
<dholbach> and motu land too :)
<zakame> w00t!
<zyga> is the candidates-for-membership voting over?
* dholbach curtseys
<zakame> maraming salamat sa inyong lahat! :D
<dholbach> zyga: no :)
<Seveas> zakame, assuming that you're not cursing: thanks!
<dholbach> hihi :)
<smurf> I think the next agenda item is " Ubuntu IRC registrations"
<ogra> *g*
<Seveas> smurf, no
<zakame> Seveas: that's "thank you all!"
<Seveas> next is JonathanJesse, but I'll speak on his behalf
<ogra> smurf, did you look at the member proposal list ?
<Seveas> Jonathan Jesse has been a great contributor to the docteam, he has written a very large part of the kubuntu docs and is active and eager to do more. He has been trying to become a member for a while, but the meetings are never scheduled on times he can make it (either asleep or driving home). I would like to propose him as a member even in his absence, based also on good recommendations from mdke 
<Seveas> and Riddell.
* zyga wonders what to do now
<smurf> ah, sorry
<ogra> its endless
<Seveas> zyga, you can go next, you're on the agenda
<zyga> Seveas: okay
<Riddell> Jonathan did great work getting the kubuntu docs into shape for breezy, he was quite a hero
<Kamion> Seveas: I'm uncomfortable about approving people in their absence - perhaps if we're having an unusually-timed meeting during UBZ anyway, we can take advantage of that to invite people who wouldn't normally be able to make it
<Seveas> Kamion, ack, let's make the meeting in two weeks work for him
<Kamion> one week, I think, but whatever
<Seveas> one week is the forums issue meeting (a special thing)
<Kamion> yeah, no reason not to piggyback a membership application or two onto it though, I think
<Seveas> :)
<Kamion> if they have real problems showing up normally
<Seveas> true
<Kamion> anyway, zyga
* zyga should now descibe himself?
<Seveas> yes polease
<Seveas> s/o//
<zyga> okay, as I said above my name is Zygmunt Krynicki
<zyga> I'm a long time developer, I've discovered linux about two years ago as a part of my job
<zyga> right now I'm active ubuntie and I've got a couple of ideas that I'm planing to implement for dapper
<dholbach> could you sum these ideas up briefly?
<zyga> I'm working with mvo on update-manager and I also plan to incorporate my next-generation l10n ideas if I make it before the deadline
<zyga> dholbach: yes
<smurf> zyga: what's your job?
<zyga> I want to improve on the idea of language packs (more in a moment)
<zyga> smurf: I'm a freelance code
<Kamion> I think dapper is perhaps not the time for sweeping changes, being a long-term-supported release - but they could be brought in on an experimental basis and integrated more deeply after dapper
<zyga> smurf: during my work I've designed a large lingustic search system
<zyga> smurf: I've hacked an ancient database (all C so far)
<Kamion> (I haven't really looked at ng-l10n much yet - I think it may need some adjustments to avoid awkward clashes with the dpkg-managed filesystem namespace, but now is not the time to discuss it really :-))
<zyga> smurf: I've written a bunch of webpages with php
<zyga> I'm currently modifying ubuntu for a kiosk live cd enviornent
<zyga> and providing support for my python converter for internal stuff at american express
<zyga> Kamion: back to l10n-ng
<Seveas> zyga, your wiki page looks outdated (mentions nothing about new l10n-ng for instance)
<ogra> zyga, restricted to live CDs or also usable in other environments ?
<Seveas> zyga, ignore, i am blind
<Yann2> thanks again folks, good night!
<zyga> short about l10n-ng: no clashes, totally new place in current fs namespace
<zyga> everyone: my ideas are outlined in my blog in somewhat more detailed form
<Kamion> the paper mentions /usr/share/locale-ng/, which is within the space that is currently managed by dpkg
<Kamion> /usr/local is (in general) outside that space and might be useful
<zyga> ogra: actually it's a limited firefox working full-screen with printing support
<ogra> ah, jk
<ogra> -j
<zyga> Kamion: that's exactly why I want to become a member 
<Kamion> I don't follow?
<zyga> as a member I could post my ideas on planet.ubuntu -- people could find bugs in my design
<Seveas> zyga, memberhip is considered a recognition of past contributions, not the place to start contributing.
<Kamion> zyga: ubuntu-devel@ is probably a better place for that sort of thing anyway, or the wiki for collaborative design
<zyga> Seveas: true, I've contributed to polish translations alot
<dholbach> i'd like to quote mvo (who had to leave early): <mvo> +1 for zyga from me on the basis of his i18n work and his i18n contributions to the various tools I maintain
<zyga> :-)
<Seveas> *checking karma*
<Kamion> planet isn't really great for that sort of thing, as it's too ephemeral and not all of the people you want/need feedback from read blogs regularly
<zyga> Seveas: my karma was re-set sometime ago
<zyga> Seveas: please check my translations page
<Seveas> reading it
<Seveas> too bad that page isn't really detailed
<zyga> My ideas for the next 3 months: get l10n-ng up and running, integrate with update-manager
<Seveas> zyga, as said before: dapper may not be the right release for a complete integration yet
<dholbach> zyga: apart from implementing your software project, what do want to do in the ubuntu community; i saw you floating around in quite some channels already?
<zyga> dholbach: I promote ubuntu among my working environments and friends, I help with bugs, I learn new stuff
<zyga> dholbach: recently I've created the MOTURuby team 
<zyga> dholbach: I whish to improve ruby and learn more about packaging in the process
<zyga> Seveas: that may be true, but after dapper there is dapper+1 :-)
<dholbach> ok, any other questions for zyga?
<ogra> zyga, whats your opinion on lucas' meaning that a MOTU team sould rather do its contributions in debian ?
<zyga> ogra: I disagree
<zyga> ogra: I think that 
<zyga> 1) good solutions apply everywhere - probably not at the same time but eventually
<zyga> 2) this is MOTURuby, not DebianRuby
<zyga> 3) It is not bad to share ideas though
<zyga> I think lucas had some personal issues that made collaboration difficult but that he will get past them eventually
<ogra> nice to see that you got a objectively opinion about that :)
<Kamion> it's also good to coordinate where major compatibility issues are involved
<Kamion> package naming is the usual case for a complex subsystem like ruby with lots of packages and dependencies all over the place
<zyga> maybe I could say something about my bad sides
<bhuvan> * going back to sleep :)
<Kamion> coo, this is a novelty
<ogra> :)
<zyga> 1) I'm inexperienced with debian and I don't remember various policies
<zyga> 2) I sometimes cut corners to get something working first
<ogra> even experienced debian devs forget/ignore them sometimes
<zyga> 3) I'm hard to argue with, sometimes I think *I* am right
<Seveas> 2) and 3) are quite common :)
<zyga> and last
<zyga> I don't know all the tools that are around in modern linux dev envriornment
<tseng> no one knows them all, im sure
<zyga> I grew up in DJGPP and I practically built stuff from scratch
<Seveas> you'll learn in MOTU land
<dholbach> zyga: don't worry, that's true for most of us :)
<zakame> zyga: djgpp!
<ogra> but youre a regular -motu attendant ... 
<ogra> that will come over time
<Seveas> ogra, since how long?
<zyga> zakame: (I was writing a rougelike like everyone else :-)
<zyga> Seveas: not very long really
<ogra> Seveas, quite long as a lurer, since some time more actively ... 
<ogra> *lurker
<dholbach> i highly value michael's (mvo) view on zyga, so i'd give the +1, although i'd like you very much to get cracking with the MOTUs/other-team some more... based on work on translations and involvement in the process with mvo +1
<zyga> Seveas: but I've got some packages already - not accepted yet though :-)
<smurf> I'm +-0 on zyga; IMHO: reapply in a month or two
* Seveas joins smurf
<Kamion> I think my main concern is that while I've seen zyga around a lot and I'm generally happy with how he's acting and talking, the wiki page is rather lighter on active contributions to date than we normally expect
<Kamion> the translation work's definitely a good start, don't get me wrong, and I know ruby came in late and it was difficult to get changes made at the stage of the freeze we were at
<Seveas> indeed, a month or six weeks is nice and for enough into dapper to see how that works
<Seveas> and maybe even bits of the l10n-ng
<zyga> :-)
<Kamion> so I think I'm +0 as well, but please don't be discouraged, just want to see a bit more on the CV really :)
<zyga> I sure hope so
<zyga> I'm not discouraged
<dholbach> zyga: is that ok? you'll join the CC meeting soon again? :)
<Seveas> zyga, cool
<zyga> dholbach: yes
<arzajac> ...
<dholbach> cool
<Seveas> we'll see you in a few meetings then, thanks for doing good work
<zyga> I've only came here because of mvo's suggestion
<Kamion> as I say, the ubuntu-devel@ mailing list is a good place for publishing progress reports and ideas
<Kamion> and you don't have to be a member to use that
<Kamion> well, ideas -> wiki possibly, depending
<Seveas> launchpad!
<Seveas> long live the spec thing ;)
<zyga> I've got a l10n spec around, not finished yet but I'll make it for the deadline for sure :-)
<Kamion> Seveas: the launchpad spec tracker is mostly for coordinating conference scheduling at present; it links to the wiki for the actual meat of proposals
<Seveas> ah ok
<Seveas> well, having done members, let's move to the rest
<Seveas> first up is myself
<Seveas> There's finally progress on the IRC registration bit, Ubuntu is registered, and I am the group contact
<Seveas> I am working on the hostname cloak things, asking every member whether they're interested
<zakame> Seveas: coolness!
<dholbach> cool
<segfault> no DDoS anymore
<segfault> :D
<Seveas> Should I ask developers too, they generally are not in the ubuntumembers team on launchpad
<Seveas> ?
<dholbach> sure
<Kamion> Seveas: yes, I think so
<Seveas> ok, then I will
<Kamion> thanks
<Seveas> next: ubuntu brazil planet (unless someone has questions)
<Seveas> is there someone from the brazil team?
<segfault> me!
<Seveas> segfault, can you clarify the 2 items a bit?
<nalioth> y'all be safe
<segfault> we're creating something like planet.ubuntu.com stuff, where we can tell brazilian people what is going on in the ubuntu world
<Seveas> segfault, why do you want a subdomain of ubuntu.com?
<Seveas> other locoteams use planet.ubuntu-fr.org or planet.ubuntulinux.nl
<segfault> yes, if its possible. i bought the domain "ubuntubrasil.org", but it would be nice to be a ubntu.com subdomain
<Seveas> the standard way is ubuntu-CC.org
<smurf> segfault: the admin for all ubuntu-XX.org (exceot -fr and -es) domains is me; IMHO planet(o).ubuntu-br.org would make a lot more sense
<Seveas> in your case ubuntu-br
<segfault> yes, and thtat is the second question, who is in charge of ubuntu-br.org?
<segfault> ops, just saw smurf admins it
<smurf> segfault: See above ;-)
<Seveas> segfault, you think you and smurf can work this out?
<smurf> so, set up your webserver for it and I'll happily point ot to your site
<Seveas> ok, arranged that (it's 2am so i'm going to speed up again :))
<segfault> smurf: sure, we have a draft at http://www.ubuntubrasil.org/ubuntubr
<Seveas> dholbach, you're up
<smurf> ubuntu-CC.org is the standard domain for loco teams and we should keep it that way
<segfault> seveas: thanks, we talk later, lets move on
<dholbach> Seveas: you dropped rss?
<smurf> segfault: send me email, that's easiest
<Seveas> dholbach bhuvan left
<dholbach> but bhuvan left 15 minutes ago
<dholbach> i wanted to discuss ubuntu-motu@ mailing list
<zakame> hmmm
<dholbach> i think motu reached quite a lot of momentum the last months and it really (imho) should have it
<segfault> smurf: sure, which addr?
<Seveas> for what purpose would such a list be used dholbach ?
<dholbach> we already have people who cannot always attend IRC and it'd be great to discuss things like that
<dholbach> or start mentoring activity on the list
<tseng> as  a corolary, i suggested and daniel and i opened #ubuntu-motu at the open of hoary
<dholbach> Seveas: universe organisation in general
<Seveas> imho splitting devel discussions between main and universe the way bugzilla and malone are split is not such a good idea
<smurf> segfault: smurf@ubuntu.com
<tseng> and things went at an explosive rate from there
<Kamion> has jdub commented on this in the past?
<Kamion> (the bugzilla/malone split will go away)
<Seveas> i know, was just an illustration :)
<dholbach> Seveas: we will use malone only at some stage, but this is something different
<tseng> in terms of new contribtuors getting involved
<dholbach> Kamion: yes, he did, but his complaints were rather tied to the size of motu back then
<Seveas> so the -motu list will be a training ground filled with newbie question?
<david`lap> thanks again all, time to sleep :)
<Kamion> it is true that ubuntu-devel@ is overloaded and has problems with the signal-to-noise ratio
<dholbach> Kamion: ++
<ogra> Kamion, but thats not caused by mouts
<ogra> *motus
<Seveas> since the forum gateway was dropped, the snr has improved..
<Kamion> it seems not entirely implausible that a separate list for MOTU mentoring (like debian-mentors@) could help with that
<dholbach> Seveas: more for the organisation of universe rocking, creation of new motu teams and a starting point for mentoring
<Kamion> ogra: there's a fair bit of "how do I do <simple development task>"
<ogra> i dont like the idea of fragmenting development over severeal places...
<Kamion> which isn't really on-topic for ubuntu-devel@ (mind you it might not be on-topic for ubuntu-motu@ either)
<dholbach> i see separation as something different
<Kamion> I'm ambivalent
<ogra> but motu has grown a bit since hoary, so it might be about time... but i'd personally still wait a bit
<dholbach> i think (as #ubuntu-motu) it makes things easier for people to get in - most of us will be signed up for both lists too
<dholbach> any other motus here?
<Seveas> <dholbach> ... most of us will be signed up for both lists too <-- then why split it off?
<ogra> exactly
<zakame> dholbach: yes, -motu as a separate list ought to make motu work easier
<tseng> most of us = current motu
<tseng> not the complete demographic
<dholbach> Seveas: because it will be easier for other folks, who can't stand the noise on ubuntu-devel@ and easier for folks that start getting into MOTUing
<Kamion> Seveas: by "most of us" he means most of MOTU as opposed to the core dev team; I know I probably wouldn't subscribe to -motu
<ogra> dholbach, it wont prevent the nois in -devel
<zakame> there was talk on building a motu-tools package in -devel recently, so I guess having a separate motu list to discuss that ought to lighten the devel list's load
<Seveas> in the last few days only the motu tools thread would be appropriate for -motu
<dholbach> ogra: no, not prevent it, but some type of questions will be re-routed
<Kamion> like I say though, I'm ambivalent, and to some extent I feel happy to leave this to the listadmin's discretion based on what the current MOTU team think
<ogra> people will still write "how do I do <simple development task>" to devel
<dholbach> Seveas: there were people asking "how can i help out" or "how do i package?"
<smurf> I think a motu list can help re-focus the -devel list though
<Kamion> there seems to be disagreement between ogra and dholbach, who are the two I'd normally turn to to find out what "MOTU thinks"
<zakame> hmmm
<dholbach> Kamion: not the first case :)
* dholbach hugs ogra
<Seveas> rofl
<zakame> haha
<ogra> Kamion, thats a long standing disagreement that makes the quality of our laedership currently :)
* ogra hugs dholbach 
<Kamion> disagreement is not a bad thing, you know ... ;)
<ogra> yep :)
<dholbach> i can see all your points, but i personally think, that this is the time to do the "jump" - i refuse to see the "separation" in it, because motu is already a lasting institution in ubuntu's community :)
<Seveas> true
<eiken0> nenuit tlm !
<Seveas> but make it a training ground, so you attract new blood :)
<Kamion> ok, can you guys discuss this further and take it to jdub as listadmin if you come to an agreement to create a list? I don't think we have a consensus here
<ogra> dholbach, people hi just want to know "how do i package blah" will rather go to devel than to motu
<eiken0> night every1 
<dholbach> how do we proceed? defer^Wre-route to ubuntu-devel@?
<ogra> s/hi/who
<dholbach> ogra: we will spread the word
<Kamion> I think if ubuntu-motu@ existed you could probably do plenty of things with it; by the same token we can improve how we handle the SNR on ubuntu-devel@
<Seveas> Kamion, but to find out if that would work the list would have to exist ;)
<Seveas> I'd say +1 on the list, dholbach has some good points
<Seveas> and I'll use it to spam the motu with packaging questions :)
<Kamion> +0 then, if we're voting
<smurf> +1
<ogra> -1 
<ogra> :)
<dholbach> will we have this discussion for each team getting a mailing list?
<ogra> tseng, some words from a motu POV ?
<Seveas> dholbach, the MOTU is kinds special
<tseng> i gave some, no one listened :/
<Seveas> tseng was positive
<tseng> i thought opening #ubuntu-motu was the single most tangible boost so far
<dholbach> i'm really not exuberantly pissed, i just wonder, how we will take care of those cases
<smurf> dholbach: for some teams the separation will be a bit more obvious
<tseng> and that the ml could have similar results
<smurf> s/some/most/ even
<Seveas> tseng, ack, I think it actually will, since not everyone is as ircaholic as we are :)
<dholbach> ok, we take it to ubuntu-devel@ and discuss again?
<Seveas> plus: mails are archived!
<dholbach> is that the "consensus"?
<ogra> dholbach++
<Seveas> which makes a nice knowledge base over time
<tseng> dholbach: wfm
<Kamion> dholbach: yeah, what smurf said, I think it really only gets tricky when there's significant overlap; and in any case jdub has discretion to create lists, it doesn't have to come to the CC if he reckons it's uncontroversial
<dholbach> Kamion: it's not the first time we go on his nerves with that list :)
<dholbach> oh well... :)
<dholbach> date of next meeting? :)
<Kamion> ok, any other business?
<arzajac> I am sorry I missed the beginning of the meeting.  Have we touched on the forums issue (again)?
<dholbach> oops. sorry
<ogra> i slowly start to see the need based on the frequency of requests, but i still think its to early
<Seveas> date of next meeting will be decided in consensus with the forums team
<tseng> arzajac: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas < we are at the close
<Kamion> arzajac: we agreed to hold an extraordinary meeting during UBZ, when we can manage a time that hopefully more forums folks can also make
<arzajac> I waited until now...
<Seveas> I'll announce this date as soon as possible (hopefully before the weekend)
<Seveas> arzajac, you could have asked...
<arzajac> Okay, thanks!
<Kamion> arzajac: somebody (er, I forget who, sorry) was sent off to gather some proposed times
<Seveas> Kamion, that was me :)
<Kamion> right
<Seveas> anyway, end of meeting, goodnight all :)
<arzajac> Okay, thanks!
<tseng> Seveas, master of the meeting
<Kamion> but I'm afraid it's 1:22am here and I think we really need to close or I'll fall over
<zakame> Seveas: thanks!
* Seveas hammers everyone out
<tseng> Kamion: sleep well.
* smurf would second Kamion except that he's too tired already
<Kamion> night all; thanks for steering, Seveas
<Kamion> (as usual)
<zakame> good morning all!
* ogra hasto get up in 4h to catch his plane to UBZ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<dholbach> good night everybody
* smurf waves
<zakame> oh, when's the next meeting?
<Seveas> <Seveas> I'll announce this date as soon as possible (hopefully before the weekend)
<zakame> ah
<Seveas> 2:22 here
<Seveas> i'm going to bed - my fiancee already is pissed 
<zakame> awww
* ogra still has to pack bags :/
<Seveas> ogra, the flight is long, sleep in the plane ;)
<dholbach> good night
<ogra> Seveas, thats the plan...
<ogra> else i wouldnt have attended
<zakame> bye all, and many thanks again :)
<bhuvan> gone through irc logs. what was the decision regarding ubuntu-motu mailing list ?
<Seveas> bhuvan, no decision yet
<flint> Good morning from DC
<flint> Did I miss a memo, or is the edubuntu meeting moved?
<flint> Well, I will leave this channel open while I do some chores.
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-02
<robitaille> !meeting set DocTeam Nov 4 14:00
<robitaille> darn,  I'll have to do it manually; the bot is gone
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 4 Nov 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-03
<paxmaster> hi 
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-04
<cyphase> hey everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-05
<pef> hello :)
<highvoltage> hello
<rejden> howdy
<cyphase> hey everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-06
<cyphase> hey everyone
<spayne> hey _null ;)
<_null> hey spayne ;)
<spayne> hey Mez
<Mez> hey
<Mez> meeting in 35 mins ?
<spayne> Mez: yes
<spayne> Mez: i thought i better stay and explain myself
<Mez> spayne, only if you're asked to
<spayne> Mez: is a TB meeting don't speak until your asked to?
<mez_> ususally, unless you have something to say
<JanC> spayne: just don't talk when you don't have anything to say about the active topic
<spayne> JanC: a good rule of thumb
<JanC> and when you want a specific topic to be discussed, make sure it's on the agenda  :)
<spayne> hi dholbach
<dholbach> hi
<ivoks> hi all
<spayne> hi again ivoks
<pef> hello all
<Mez> evening mdz, ogra, \sh
<ivoks> evening? :)
<spayne> it is evening here in England
<spayne> good ol' england :-)
<ivoks> here too :)
<_null> it's dark and cold outside :/
<Mez> oh
<Mez> sorry
<Mez> my clock was on evening time :D
<sivang> hi all
<Mez> (england time)
<spayne> Mez: where abouts in jolly england are you?
<Simira> nowhere? :p
<Mez> spayne: I'm in Canada atm
<spayne> Mez: you know what i mean
<Mez> Birmngham *cringes*
<siretart> hi folks
<spayne> Newcastle
<mdz> Mez: morning
<slomo> hi everybody :)
<Mez> afternoon mdz :P
<ajmitch> hi
<Mez> Tue Nov  1 19:59:20 UTC 2005
<_null> Tue Nov  1 20:59:37 CET 2005
<_null> ;)
<sivang> so, TB meeting now?
<mdz> we'll be starting in a few minutes when mjg59 arrives
<spayne> howdy everyone
<sivang> mdz: fine
<ivoks> hi, my name is ivoks, and I'm alcocholic
<spayne> where did that come from!?!
<ivoks> :/
<ivoks> wrong channel
<ivoks> sorry
<ajmitch> 
<ivoks> looks like montreal splits :/
<ajmitch> yep
<Mez> lol
<Mez> yeah
<Mez> it's dodgy
<Mez> afternoon 
<ivoks> wb guys
<spayne> hi sabdfl
<Mez> afternoon Mark!
<ajmitch> hi pitti 
<pitti> hi ajmitch 
<Keybuk> just a quick general warning ... we're having a few network issues at the conference (shock), so it may be bouncy
<daniels> Keybuk: it wouldn't be an ubuntu conference without them
<Mez> is the ubuntu ESSID back now then?
<spacey> its quite unstable
<Mez> or are we all just using TELUS still
<ajmitch> yes, it's back
<Mez> wb Mark
<Mez> ah, am still using TELUS... seems more reliable down here
<Mez> lol
<_null> what is telus? ;)
<Mez> unlike up in my room (the reason half the channels now have revolving doors is for me)
<spacey> _null: accesspoint at UBZ
<_null> ah
<N6REJ> *knock knock, may I speak please*
<sabdfl> mjg59 will be around shortly, mdz is .. here
<Keybuk> *so* summoned
<spayne> there you go
<mjg59> Hello
<sabdfl> greetings from montreal madness
<ivoks> hi
<sabdfl> one of the things we've discussed here is focusing the TB more on technical issues
<sabdfl> so we have some notes from UBZ
<dholbach> hi matthew
<sabdfl> some things have been decided, others are still up for contributions
<sabdfl> should we touch on that stuff before dealing with new dev candidates?
<Keybuk> first we should probably welcome and introduce mjg59 ... ? :)
<sivang> Mez: I'm using TELUS right now, ubuntu essid still doesn't work for me
<mdz> Keybuk: let him catch his breath first
<Mez> sivang - #ubz
<mdz> sabdfl: let's
<sabdfl> ok, keybuk has a point, welcome mjg59!
<sabdfl> great to have you here
<sivang> welcome mjg59 :)
<mjg59> Good to be here :)
<sabdfl> lot's of excitement here at montreal, the processes seem to have settled down so it all seems surprisingly relaxed and un-chaotic
<spayne> mjg59: ;-)
<Mez> sabdfl: for now
<sabdfl> lots of good focused discussion in the first two days
<sabdfl> let's see if those scheduling algorithms hold up tonight as we get into some of hte medium and lower priority discussions
<sabdfl> anyhow, let's start by covering some of the high priority items that have been on the agenda here
<sabdfl> mdz: UbuntuExpress?
<sivang> and those that have been decided as well
<mdz> we've taken a decision to implement a live-CD-based installer for dapper
<mdz> working title "Ubuntu Express"
<mdz> technical details are at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-express
<ogra> what about the exisitng app that claimed thaqt name ? 
<mdz> and the spec linked from there will be updated to reflect ongoing discussion
<mdz> ogra: that implementation was an attempt to create what we want here
<ogra> yes, an attempt ..
<mdz> so with any luck it will form the basis for this implementation
<mdz> we'll cross that bridge when we come to it
* ogra shuts up and reads the spec first
<mjg59> mdz: Is this supposed to be the default installer, or merely an option?
<mdz> mjg59: an excellent question
<Kamion> ogra: we've already decided to base our implementation on the Guadalinex one if at all possible; if you have further questions, please ask me about them here rather than in the TB meeting
<ogra> Kamion, yup
<mdz> mjg59: we hope to be able to use it as our front-line installer
<mjg59> mdz: Is this likely to increase install time?
<mdz> mjg59: it is likely to dramatically decrease installation time
<mjg59> mdz: Ok, if that's the assumption then excellent
<ogra> mjg59, and it entertains you while installing :)
<Keybuk> other specs are focussing on massively increasing the boot speed of the live cd
<mdz> it will be copying a preinstalled filesystem rather than building one out of .debs
<mjg59> mdz: My main concern would be about skew between the d-i based installer that'll presumably still be necessary for server-level hardware and the graphical installer
<Kamion> mjg59: I'm going to be doing my best to minimise duplication between d-i and UE; that's the major problem with the current implementation
<Kamion> (we're having network problems here, hence why sabdfl and mdz dropped off)
<mdz> <mdz> it will be limited in flexibility
<mdz> <mdz> but the advantages for the common case are dazzling
<mdz> <mdz> the existing installer will be retained for other use cases
<mdz> <mdz> we've also discussed the toolchain plan for the dapper cycle
<Kamion> mjg59: my intent at the moment is to reuse some of the architecture from oem-config, which was all about calling installer bits from a real system
<mdz> <mdz> where we'll be rather conservative and limit ourselves to point releases of the primary components
<mdz> <mdz> specifically, gcc 4.0.x
<mdz> <mdz> and hopefully dropping 3.3
<sabdfl> dropping 3.4 too if we can, depending on glibc and kernel for PPC64
<sabdfl> also, NOT shooting for 4.1
<sabdfl> since the main argument is java, and the people who care all seem to install the non-free bits anyway
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> migrations to launchpad
<sabdfl> we had a great demo of malone today
<sabdfl> plan is to migrate all open bugs
<sabdfl> you can see a preview at staging.ubuntu.com
<Mez> sabdfl: apart from the big "oops"
<sabdfl> https://staging.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/+bug/4658
<sabdfl> Mez: iz gtk burrg
* seb128 wonders if he can slaps sabdfl 
<mjg59> Is there any plan to move to supporting nx-based systems?
<sabdfl> seb128: with both hands ;-)
<sabdfl> mjg59: fabian is here
<seb128> :)
<sabdfl> and lobbying furiously for that
<mjg59> sabdfl: Heh. I meant No execute rather than the slimline X.
<sabdfl> tollef has some concerns that i need to pass on to omachines
<sabdfl> mjg59: aha :-)
<sabdfl> mjg59: dapper + 1
<Kamion> mjg59: what support are we missing for those?
<sabdfl> hmm... is that the stack protection?
<mjg59> Ok, so we have our toolchain goals fairly well set
<mdz> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> ok, elmo was saying dapper + 1 
<sabdfl> firt rebuild with GCC 4.1, then rebuild again with stack protection
<mjg59> Kamion: I was under the impression that it's basically rebuilding the entire archive with the right compiler options, but I couldn't swear to that
<elmo> NX is hardware assisted SSP, and is slightly different
<sabdfl> early in the dapper + 1 cycle
<sabdfl> elmo: go ahead
<mdz> sabdfl: when we're breaking everything else
<mjg59> Most new hardware is shipping with nx support
<sabdfl> mdz: furiously and for infinite justice
<tseng> elmo: NX isnt really SSP at all
<tseng> but i wont get into that
* mdz mutters under his breath
<sabdfl> ok, that's a topic for the toolchain bof. elmo, can we put NX stuff into Dapper at all?
<sabdfl> otherwise, dapper itself is now well defined
<mjg59> NX support is very buzzword compliant and Intel will love you forever
<sabdfl> elmo: ?
<Kamion> I seem to remember fixing a grub bug about two releases ago that was due to NX support having kicked in
<Mithrandir> uh, we don't have any of the NX stuff there already?  Why did Kamion spend a few days chasing a weird grub bug where it tried to trampoline off some malloced pages (iirc), then?
<elmo> sabdfl: AFAIK it is already in
<sabdfl> ok, cool
<sabdfl> so, the last big thing so far is moving the archive to lp
<trulux> hi
<sabdfl> daniel (kinnison) will present his stuff tomorrow
<mjg59> Ok, if we have it then it's obviously not a concern :)
<sabdfl> we are running test imports and there are still bugs
<sabdfl> mjg59: best let intel know so they can love us forever :-)
<Mithrandir> mjg59: we have had a bug caused by it at least. :-P
<mdz> tseng: stack execution versus overwrites on the stack, related in that often both are used in common exploit scenarios
<trulux> mdz: anything going on around security stuff?
<mjg59> Ok. So it sounds like our basic infrastructural Dapper stuff is fairly well defined.
<sabdfl> at some stage in the next few weeks, we will transition to LP for the upload / queue / build management
<sabdfl> expect bumps, but the sooner we hit them the better
<sabdfl> and that's a wrap of the news headlines from montreal
<mdz> trulux: low-hanging fruit only for dapper; we shouldn't deploy anything too aggressive
<trulux> mdz: I agree
<mjg59> sabdfl: Ok, that all sounds fairly reasonable.
<sivang> sabdfl: is it in a better shape then before one week?
<trulux> mdz: SELinux user-land support would make it into dapper AFAIK
<mjg59> Do we have a well defined idea of what low hanging fruit is yet?
<sabdfl> mjg59: RIGID AND BORING! except for UbuntuExpress
<sabdfl> we also had the first of a series of desktop tweaking sessions
<sabdfl> gdm, panel, and menus are all coming under scrutiny
<mdz> argu^Wdiscussions about desktop tweaks
<mjg59> But as a baseline, we're looking at Gnome 2.14 + ancilliary benefits, right?
<sabdfl> we will land proposed tweaks sooner for maximum feedback pre-freeze
<sabdfl> mjg59: yes
<mdz> mjg59: 2.14 + shiny artwork + various UI sorts of projects
<mjg59> Ok. Are there any Dapper restrictions on Universe, or is it business as usual there?
<mdz> mjg59: we haven't in the past, and so far there hasn't been a proposal to change that
<sabdfl> motu will likely have the same upstream version freeze
<mdz> nor any obvious meltdowns as a result
<sabdfl> mdz: this time we should make universe UVF explicit
<ajmitch> mjg59: the understanding was that we'll have a definite UVF
<mdz> sabdfl: to what end?
<sabdfl> the issue in the past has been MOTU's wanting newer stuff that affects dependencies in main
<sabdfl> best we all rush to UVF together
<\sh> sabdfl: actually it would be nice with an add of two weeks 
<tseng> or the motu still struggling to finish major transitions in hoary/breezy
<dholbach> yes
<ivoks> \sh: +
<ajmitch> I think ogra's proposal is for UVF, and 2 weeks for other NEW packages
<mjg59> Ok. So it sounds like we have a pretty good idea what the default situation in Dapper is going to be, with a small set of exceptions
<mdz> we've always stopped the automatic sync for universe at the same time
<mdz> and that's sensible still
<ajmitch> yes
<mjg59> Was a decision reached about Dapper kernel policy?
<ajmitch> we need time in universe to make things sane
<sabdfl> 2.6.15, i believe
<sabdfl> same version for desktop and server, with different patch sets
<mdz> mjg59: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-roadmap-dapper
<sabdfl> ok, any other comments on UBZ?
<Keybuk> any questions from the floor?
<elmo> ARE WE THERE YET?
<mdz> it's not as cold as all that
<Keybuk> esp. those not able to atttend
<sabdfl> Treenaks is taking video footage of the lightning talks and presentations, to be published asap
<ivoks> nice
<sabdfl> ogg rocks
<sabdfl> ok, let's move along
<tseng> mdz: you opened a spec for beagle integration, can we cross that bridge later, or you would like a spec this week or defer?
<mdz> tseng: our current notion is to defer it as risky
<tseng> mdz: id agree, as it stands
<tseng> fair enough
<mjg59> sabdfl: Is there going to be a mail to u-devel describing the Dapper situation?
<mdz> mjg59: are you volunteering to summarize? ;-)
<mjg59> I'd tend to think of Beagle as sufficient for main, if not necessarily desktop or ship
<sabdfl> mjg59: good idea, we should announce each approved spec
<mjg59> mdz: Oh christ no
<Mez> Movies: http://foodfight.org/movies/Ubuntu%20Fanpeople/
<sabdfl> yesterday we agreed to have a -devel-announce
<sabdfl> reply to -devel
<ajmitch> mjg59: beagle still has its issues at times
<ajmitch> far less than before
<sabdfl> and we will announce approved specs there... .approvers of the world take note
<mdz> ...especially the ones not attending
<Kamion> one announcement per spec seems too high-traffic; perhaps we can batch it, one message per day
<mjg59> mdz: As long as I don't have to write 20,000 lines of powermanagementconfig code, I approve
<Kamion> otherwise we're going to turn off all our potential subscribers before we even get started
<mdz> mjg59: we do need your input on the power management config spec
<mjg59> mdz: sure, no problem
<mdz> Kamion: sounds reasonable to me
<Keybuk> Kamion: we can do the mail at the end of the daily approver meeting while at the conf
<mdz> mjg59: lots of good discussion in that area but needs some technical guidance
<Keybuk> if someone can bread-roll jdub and get him to click the "create list" button
<mjg59> Sessions using gobby on public addresses = win
<sabdfl> ok, are we ready to look at new devs?
<Kamion> Keybuk: right
<sivang> mjg59: it's so sweet :)
<mjg59> (If I could repeat that - SESSIONS USING GOBBY ON PUBLIC ADDRESSES = WIN)
<sabdfl> do we have a public address?
<Mithrandir> somebody should write a gobby server which we could run in the DC or something.
<Mithrandir> like, headless.
<Kamion> somebody should fix gobby so it doesn't crash all the time :P
<mjg59> A gobby metaserver would be ideal
<mdz> right, so developer candidates
<mjg59> But being able to give input into specs drafting while not being there makes the process a good deal better
<mjg59> But yes, developer candidates
<mdz> two people have applied since the last meeting
<sabdfl> anybody here applied for motu?
<mdz> for core-dev
<mdz> https://launchpad.net/people/aaron-bitchx and https://launchpad.net/people/siretart
<dholbach> mdz: siretart did for main
* siretart is here
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/people/siretart
<siretart> but wifi is... unreliable ;)
<pef> sabdfl: yes, I applied for MOTU
<Kamion> dholbach: the TB has a convenient list in LP
<sabdfl> for motu, it's six new applicants
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/people/aaron-bitchx
<Keybuk> bah, mdz beat me :p
<mjg59> aaron-bitchx doesn't appear to have a wiki page
<mjg59> He also doesn't appear to be here, unless I'm mistaken?
<dholbach> Kamion: yes, i was aware of that :)
<mdz> mjg59: I also have no idea who they are
* ajmitch doesn't recognise the nick as any MOTU
<tseng> mjg59: nor is he a member of any launchpad teams
<Keybuk> mjg59: also not an ubuntite, or member, etc.
<Keybuk> Is "Farias" here?
<mjg59> Ok. Can we drop them until we have some idea who they are?
<ivoks> that guy was once in #ubuntu-motu
<ivoks> asking what he can do
<mdz> question: should we explicitly decline candidates who propose themselves apparently at random and don't contact anyone?
<\sh> I think only siretart is well known now :)
<ivoks> afaik, he didn't move any fruther...
<mdz> we don't currently have the ability to provide a reason, I don't think
<ajmitch> mdz: it cuts down on noise
<mjg59> mdz: I'm inclined to suggest that they be non-prejudicially rejected
<mjg59> But making that clear may involve facilities we don't have
<sabdfl> we don't currently have a way just to make those requests disappear
* rob^ looks in
<mjg59> I think this is a problem to solve in the future, though
<siretart> they obviously fail to prove to know how the process of becoming developer works
<sabdfl> so, going systematically
<mjg59> Shall we move on to siretart?
<Keybuk> sabdfl: could we have a "decline with a reason" button? :p
<mdz> Keybuk: I smell a spec
<trulux> hey pitti 
<mjg59> In siretart's faviour, he's here and I recognise the name :)
<siretart> hi pitti ;)
<sabdfl> Keybuk: sure. nudge salgado or land it yourself :-)
<siretart> :)
<mdz> mjg59: he's also *here*
<ajmitch> he also lent me a laptop, so he has my vote :)
<sabdfl> siretart: what areas of main are you particularly interested in working on?
<siretart> sabdfl: I'm currently concentrating on q/a, especially this revu stuff
<siretart> sabdfl: I intend to help in processing merges in main and general bugfixing
<tseng> dholbach-lite :)
<dholbach> tseng: come on :)
<ajmitch> tseng: noone can compete with the dholbach 
<siretart> hrhr
* dholbach blushes
<magnon> aww.
<sabdfl> can some of the motu comment on siretarts current coding, package management, upload approach?
<dholbach> i'd be quite happy with siretart in main. he was both reliable in being active and his solutions themselves. he didnt just grab the low-hanging fruits and he has a good overview of what's going on.
<tseng> siretart doesnt really have his head stuck in the packaging level (altough he is no slouch at that)
<Mez> dholbach has just put into words exactly what I was thinking
<dholbach> and he's been a central part of MOTU in the last 8 months? 9 months?
<tseng> he is an expert at management also
<mjg59> I'd also say that siretart was entirely competent doing laptop testing
<tseng> and created REVU in one of the biggest boosts to motu productivity
* tseng is a fan
<Mez> and revu2/revu3 is looking good
* siretart is honoured :)
<ogra_> dholbach, so he's about to be born into main ? :)
<sabdfl> siretart: who would you discuss a low-level upload with?
<sabdfl> can you give some examples of package that you consider a high-risk upload?
<siretart> sabdfl: I'd say it depends, because I'd consider  low level to be potential critical
<siretart> the key packages are packages with large reverse dependencies
<siretart> obviously this includes packages like libc or kernel, which I'd never touch without having someone working on it reviewed (that means my patch to that looked at)
<sabdfl> siretart: did you make much of a contribution to any of the recent universe transitions?
<sabdfl> dholbach: can you comment on that?
<siretart> so especially library packages are critical, gnome has a lot of them ;)
<sabdfl> siretart: do you run kde on any machines?
<siretart> sabdfl: I think I've done a fair amount of cxx transition uploads
<mdz> siretart: it's crucial that core developers be able to assess the risk of their changes before uploading, and seek advice if appropriate
<siretart> mdz: absolutly. 
<mdz> siretart: can you explain how you would go about making those judgements?
<siretart> mdz: this is such a general question. I'd go to the changelog, look at the people who worked on it, and asses which other package a diff could affect
<dholbach> sabdfl: he worked on the merges and on ghc6 and the unmet depedencies we tracked down
<siretart> obviously this affects both reverse depends and reverse build depends in many cases
<mdz> siretart: yes, it is very general.  feel free to use specific examples to explain your reasoning
<mdz> siretart: for example, a situation where you would go ahead with a change, and one where you would decide to wait until you had more information or review
<siretart> sabdfl: I don't run kde on my machines, so I'd rather don't touch kde packages without being absolutly sure that I wont break anything. But installing kde on my private machine and testing kde is also no problem to me
<siretart> mdz: I
<siretart> argl
<Mez> argl ?
<siretart> mistyped
<siretart> I'd go on with and upload without notifying anyone else if I can really reprodoce the bug/problem and can testify that the bug is gone with that
<siretart> obviously there can be bad side effects, I'm aware of that and try to avoid that
<siretart> but there are also in main many easy bugs that can be fixed
<siretart> think of merges in packages like diveintopython
<siretart> or documentation packages. they don't have risk to break the whole system
<mdz> all the same, they are not without risk.  a broken diveintopython package will cause the desktop install to fail, and would delay a milestone or even a release
<siretart> err, in that case the package would be really broken such as in uninstallable
<siretart> I think I've proven that I can check others not to produce such packages
<siretart> so I'd consider myself competent enough to do such checks on myself
<sabdfl> siretart: how would you check to see if the -desktop archive is currently installable?
<siretart> debootstrap and apt-get install ubuntu-desktop?
<siretart> on private repo with my 'testpackage; installed
<sabdfl> siretart: that would work, yes, there's a daily report though
<sabdfl> most dev's check it regularly
<siretart> yeah, but only after I uploaded it
<siretart> I thought this question would be about checking if an upload would break it
<mdz> siretart: what other tools and methods do you use to test a package before uploading it?
<siretart> mdz: pbuilder, and sbuild obviously, but I also find piuparts quite useful
<siretart> for mass rebuilds, I find sbuild more convinient
<Keybuk> how do you check whether you've made any of the common mistakes in your package?
<siretart> I configured my debuild setup to run both linda and lintian by default, this catches to MOST common mistakes
<mdz> siretart: and what was Keybuk's previous hair colour?
<Keybuk> in a few of your uploads, you've actually converted the packaging system used (to dpatch in a few, and cdbs in another) to apply relatively minor changes -- could you explain your reasoning for doing so?
<sabdfl> which hair?
<siretart> mdz: I think brown ;)
<sabdfl> how about a final round of questions, then a "yes" or "defer" vote?
<mdz> I'm finished
<mjg59> I think Scott's question is a good one - converting between build systems increases the skew against Debian, which makes contributing patches back more difficult
<siretart> Keybuk: I'd consider that now as a mstake. I had the misassumption that this would actually faciliate the work for the DD. after reading some discussion, like joeys rants about motus excessivly using dpatch, I'd rather agree to him
<mdz> ok, calling for votes then
<siretart> Keybuk: I'm about to process merges to packages I borked myself and undo that change, because debdiff is the state of the art tool for now :/
<mjg59> siretart: If you're willing to evangelise in that respect, I'm entirely in favour
<sabdfl> +1 from me, on the basis that i think he's touched a wide variety of packages in generally constructive ways
<dholbach> it was a misconception among the whole motu crew, to be honest - we discussed this in the last motu-meeting
<mjg59> +1 from me - I think he shows a good understanding of the issues involved, and is willing to accept that certain techical decisions were mistakes (which puts him ahead of many :) )
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<mdz> +1, reflecting general thoughtfulness of process and judgement
<dholbach> YAY
<mdz> siretart: congratulations and welcome
<sabdfl> so
<sabdfl> congratulations siretart
<siretart> YAY! Thanks you all! :)
<dholbach> excellent :)
<sabdfl> and welcome (further) aboard :-)
* dholbach hugs siretart 
* Mez watches as evyone looks confused at the clapping in the room
<Mez> quite funny
<mjg59> UniverseCandidates?
<ivoks> siretart: nice! :)
<mjg59> (or whatever it's called)
<dholbach> mjg59: ? :)
<ogra_> congrats siretart :)
<mdz> mjg59: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev/+members
<sabdfl> are there any MOTU candidates here?
<dholbach> mjg59: that's the wiki page for users suggesting new software for ubuntu universe :)
<ajmitch> sabdfl: bmonty_laptop is here for a change
<\sh> siretart: rock...u have to pay the drinks tonight ,-)
<bmonty_laptop> hey guys, sorry I'm late, but can you still consider my MOTU application?
<ajmitch> siretart: well done :)
<slomo> siretart: congrats :)
<sabdfl> dholbach: new tb member's duty is to filter those and predict which ones elmo will bump to multiverse ;-)
<JaneW> siretart: congratulations
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/people/hestonbonapart, https://launchpad.net/people/ryoma-nagare, https://launchpad.net/people/loic, https://launchpad.net/people/changjiang98, https://launchpad.net/people/thisdyingdream
<sabdfl> bmonty_laptop: are you in the list keybuk posted?
<pef> sabdfl: I'm loic 
<mdz> before we consider MOTU candidates, I'd like to make a proposal regarding core candidates
<tseng> he is https://launchpad.net/people/bmontgom
<Keybuk> mdz: ok
<bmonty_laptop> sabdfl: no
<sabdfl> bmonty_laptop: ok, go ahead and propose yourself for the ubuntu-dev team
<mdz> specifically, that we only consider candidates who have already participated in MOTU, unless there is an explicit consensus to fast-track someone where we have first-hand working knowledge
<bmonty_laptop> sabdfl: I think I already have, but let me check
<sabdfl> +1 from me on that, with exceptions for DD's and other highly qualified folks
<Mez> mdz: I thought that was the case anywya
<mjg59> mdz: I think that should be stated explicitly, yes
<mdz> Mez: it's been implicit
<sabdfl> Mez: not explicit yet
<mdz> mjg59: this would allow us to clean out the list of ubuntu-core-dev candidates in launchpad
<ogra_> Mithrandir, in fact i'm just about to upload the latest gnome-screensaver to dapper
<ogra_> whoops ECHAN
<Keybuk> yeah, +1 it's been pretty much an implicit so far
<mjg59> Unless there are pressing reasons for an exception, it ought to be expected that core developers are already engaged in development
<mdz> ok, agreed then 
<mdz> sabdfl is cleaning out the list accordingly
<bmonty_laptop> sabdfl: lanchpad says I am already proposed and waiting for approval
<mdz> I think there are enough paths to MOTU that anyone seeking to get involved won't have trouble finding their way
<mjg59> Ok, cool.
<bmonty_laptop> mdz: I'd agree with that
<mjg59> MOTU people?
<tseng> we actively pull people in whenever possible
<mjg59> Do we have anyone other than pef?
<tseng> where there is interest.
<sabdfl> bmonty_laptop: ok, see you now
<Keybuk> bmonty_laptop: did you not show up at the previous meeting?
<bmonty_laptop> Keybuk: no, the last meeting occurs during my work hours
<bmonty_laptop> and I have no IRC access at work
<Keybuk> should we also start explicitly only approving for MOTU those people who are already Ubuntu Members?
<Keybuk> that's easy to check with launchpad now, we've only not done it so far because the CC held the list and we didn't
<mdz> I would like to avoid a lockstep process where people need to show up for multiple meetings during different weeks just to go through the process
<mdz> any ideas for how we can simplify it?
<bmonty_laptop> mdz: why the requirement for the irc meeting?
<Mez> mdz: if they get MOTU - then they're automatically a member ?
<tseng> most MOTUs worthy of approval can be vouched for by one of us
<Mez> (make MOTU a member of members)
<tseng> and already made a meeting for member status
<sabdfl> i think we can let the TB approve membership directly
<tseng> approved by CC members
<sabdfl> in fact, i thought that was the PreHoaryPositionThatStayed
<tseng> hm we have been implicitly implying membership all along ime
<tseng> uh
<tseng> implicitly requiring...
<tseng> prehoary process was just a quick 3 votes at TB for maintainership
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> the discussion rounf the table here is...
<sabdfl> i'm proposing that we make the TB-can-give-membership thing formal
<mdz> if developership implies membership, we need to be more rigorous about having developers go through the other bits of the membership process
<sabdfl> and i'll put this on the CC agenda now
<mdz> such as signing the CoC
<mdz> sabdfl: agreed, should be discussed with CC
<sabdfl> in fact, i'd like to propose that the forums guys can grant membership
<tseng> could you be more specific with "the forums guys"?
<sabdfl> on the basis that membership is all about a "substantial contribution", and they are in a better position to judge that for forum participants
<sabdfl> elmo: ^^ PANIC
<Keybuk> sabdfl: I can't hear any screams ...
<tseng> i am panicing for him!
<Seveas> sabdfl, so let the forum guys vouch for them at the CC meetings
<mdz> sabdfl: I think we should defer this to the CC meeting
<mdz> especially for the sake of those who are staying up late to be considered for MOTU
<Keybuk> ok, can we hear from our MOTU on bmonty and pef ?
<Keybuk> have they been working with you so far, and if so, do you think they're ready?
<tseng> i sponsored bmonty on a significant number of rebuilds to clear unmet deps
<tseng> i think he moved onto to higher fruit after that, anyone else?
<Riddell> pef has been doing great stuff for KDE packages
<Riddell> he's been packaging faster than I can review but his pacakges are all good quality so far
<LaserJock> can a MOTU wannabe say something?
<mdz> LaserJock: if you have first-hand information to share, certainly
<tseng> LaserJock: if its relevaant to the topic at hand, of course
<Riddell> pef as been helping keep packages up to date too which is cool
<dholbach> i reviewed quite a bunch of pef's packages, he really does a good job on packaging stuff and recently got involved in fixing universe bugs in malone
<tseng> (yay for turns)
<LaserJock> bmonty has helped me a lot learning to package and is one of the reasons I like to contribute to Ubuntu. He is friendly and professional and gives good advice.
<Riddell> oh yes, pef has been going through some kubuntu bugs, which is very welcome
* tseng glares at Riddell some more
<slomo> i reviewed some of pef's packages too... all of them were fine except sometimes small mistakes that could be simple fixed :)
<mdz> tseng: Keybuk is attempting parallel candidate processing
<dholbach> bmonty worked together with bddebian in the hard times of merges/unmet-deps and they both ruled breezy-changes in that time. unfortunately i didnt work much with him, because i was busy with my thesis
<Keybuk> pef: what kind of things will you be doing in universe?
<Riddell> tseng: why?
<tseng> mdz: an interesting tactic
<pef> Keybuk: fixing bugs and package applications, especially kde stuff
<Mez> +1 for kde stuff :D
<pef> Keybuk: and help new motus, review their packages like motus are doing for me
<Keybuk> just looked though pef's uploads, he gets a +1 from me, lots of good work there and think he'll be doing some good work for kubuntu
<mdz> +1 for pef based on feedback from his peers
<mjg59> +1 - I'm happy with the feedback
<sabdfl> +1 from me too, with extra interest on the Kubuntu front
<sabdfl> welcome aboard!
<mdz> pef: congratulations to you
<Keybuk> bmonty: looks like you're doing some good work, but I'd personally like to see you work a little more closely with the MOTU and come back and apply again in a later meeting
<bmonty_laptop> Keybuk: work more closely in what way?
<pef> thank you all :]  I'm really proud being a motu :)
<Mez> congrats pef: welcome to the team
<mdz> bmonty_laptop: if there are others on the MOTU team who have worked more closely with you, we would like to hear from them
<mdz> bmonty_laptop: perhaps bddebian?
<sabdfl> bmonty: don't be discouraged, but i would agree with keybuk and say i look forward to seeing you here again in a month or two, with some more packaging experience
<dholbach> pef: excellent work! well done
<pef> dholbach: thank you for being present here
<Keybuk> bmonty_laptop: carry on how you're going, work on some more different kinds of packages across the archive and work with a few different members of the MOTU team
<pef> Riddell: thank you too :)
<dholbach> pef: de rien
<mjg59> bmonty_laptop: (For what it's worth, it took around a year from me applying to Debian to being able to upload anything)
<Riddell> pef: you're cool, keep up the kubuntu help!
<bmonty_laptop> k, I'll keep working at it
<mjg59> bmonty_laptop: So please don't be discouraged :)
<Keybuk> bmonty_laptop: definitely, please do!
<mdz> bmonty_laptop: we appreciate your interest and efforts so far
<bmonty_laptop> hey guys, this is discouraging, but I was having fun working on breezy and I'll continue to what I find fun with dapper
<daniels> bmonty_laptop: (took me 3.5 years to get upload privileges in Debian.)
<Amaranth> daniels: Those guys are nuts then. :)
<tseng> Amaranth: not really, he was busy trolling them.
<Keybuk> Amaranth: he was very very very 14
<Amaranth> Ah, this explains much.
<mjg59> So, anything else on the agenda?
* mjg59 is busy thinking of the pub again
<mdz> one last item
<mdz> we have a new mailing list, ubuntu-devel-announce@lists.ubuntu.com
<mdz> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-announce
<mdz> to separate announcement posts from the increasing traffic on ubuntu-devel
<mjg59> +1
<mdz> everyone subscribe, kthxbye
<mjg59> Excellent
<mdz> any other business?
<Keybuk> developers will be using that to announce big changes, and keep everyone in touch with what's happening
<mjg59> I suggest that we encourage people at UDZ to enjoy Montreal while they can
<mdz> likewise for those at UBZ
<daniels> and those in Montral
<Keybuk> now, where's the whiskey?
<ivoks> heh and what about others, still in europe? :)
<mdz> right
<mdz> meeting adjourned
<mdz> thanks everyone for your participation
<tseng> thanks mdz 
<mjg59> And the whisky
<dholbach> thank you
<mjg59> Excellent. See you soon.
<pef> thank you !
<ivoks> thnx
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-30
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Oct 22:00 UTC: LoCo | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubug2] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Oct 22:00 UTC: LoCo | 01 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubug2> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 31 Oct 23:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 21:00: Technical Board
<ian_brasil> @schedule manaus
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Manaus: 31 Oct 18:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 08:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 16:00: Technical Board
<poningru> @schedule EST
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 31 Oct 17:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 15:00: Technical Board
<poningru> drat
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-31
<Burgundavia> @schedule vancouver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Vancouver: 31 Oct 14:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 04:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 12:00: Technical Board
<Mez> @schedule brimingham
<Mez> @schedule birmingham
<Mez> @schedule LONDON
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 31 Oct 22:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00: Technical Board
<GNAM> @shcedule ROME
<GNAM> @schedule ROME
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 31 Oct 23:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 21:00: Technical Board
<freeflying> @schedule Shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 01 Nov 06:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 08 Nov 04:00: Technical Board
<rejden> @schedule vienna
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 31 Oct 23:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 21:00: Technical Board
<DBO> got the bug count to 218
<DBO> oops, wrong room, sorry
<fernando> Hi all. During Ubuntu Developer Summit reports about what was argued in the projects will be available?
<fernando> have a participate page =), thanks
<opi> Hello
<opi> I hope 22:00 UTC is 17 CET :)
<cjwatson> opi: date -u
<opi> right
<opi> oh..
<opi> ho hum :)
<opi> then I guess I'm off to get some beer
<simira> lloydinho: hi, how are you?
<lloydinho> hi simira!
<lloydinho> I'm doing well. I've just had a late lunch with Henrik.
<simira> lloydinho: that must be a late lunch indeed!
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 31 Oct 16:00: LoCo | 01 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 14:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: LoCo | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<looksaus> evening
<jono> hey
<kjcole> Hullo
<Gnomonic> Good Evening (with a count dracula accent)
<jono> heh
<Plug> 'yarr'
<licio> good night :)
<jono> lets give late folks a few mins to get in :)
<elkbuntu> indeed
<nixternal> hello
<JoeyStanford> Howdy
<Burgwork> greets
<nixternal> i was packaging docs to fix boogs
<Burgwork> boogs, are those worse than bugs?
<nixternal> it is Burgworks fault ;)
<dthacke1> you want zarro of the bugs
<nixternal> well, with Caroline Ford on the doc attack, they are boogs, cuz she found a log of bugs
<elkbuntu> while we wait to start.. the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
<ajmitch> hi
<jono> right should we start?
<newz2000> hi
<jono> hi newz2000 
<nixternal> i take it you made it there newz2000 ;)
<newz2000> just. :)
<jono> everyone got the agenda up?
<jono> ok, show of hands, who is here for the loco meeting?
* newz2000 is here
* JoeyStanford raises his hand.
<Gnomonic> Aye
<kjcole> Aye (or I)
<nixternal> o/
<elkbuntu> me me me me :)
<AdamBagnall> o/
<matt_good> yup
* jono raises a finger sheepishly
<jono> :P
<jono> cool
<nixternal> which finger?
<jono> :P
* dthacke1 (generally known as dthacker raises his hand)
<nixternal> not the chicago wave is it?
<elkbuntu> a CoC friendly one
<looksaus> jono, manners!
<jono> right, lots to get through
<nixternal> haha
<jono> firstly, docs
<nixternal> well, isn't it the same as the backwards v?
<jono> it was the docs day today, and not a huge amount got done
* Plug 
* ajmitch is here for meeting, sort of
<jono> any thoughts on why?
<Plug> I perused the docs, found I really didn't have anything to add
* dthacke1 agrees with Plug
<elkbuntu> because it wasnt well enough known
<jono> right
<looksaus> err, I made quite an addition I think
<jono> I suspect there was not enough knowledge of it
<jono> which we could with improving
<ajmitch> this is the first I heard of it being a docs day
<jono> maybe a fridge post will solve this issue
<elkbuntu> yep
<jono> also, I think everyone has something to contribute,  but many are not sure of what
<jono> so I figured we could discuss the main docs
<jono> I would say a critical one is the FAQ at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoFAQ
<jono> I would love to turn this into the all seeing all dancing FAQ
<jono> we also had a good start on the planet howto and the maps howto
<elkbuntu> we dont know what you want to know, without that elusive mind-reading skill
<jono> heh
<Plug> FAQs need the questions to actually be asked
<Plug> if there are questions, writing answers is relatively easy! :)
<dthacke1> jono: do you have a list of unanswered questions?
<JoeyStanford> I have a small bit to add to most of the material but have not found the time yet.  Given my week this week, I may not get to it until Mountain View.
<looksaus> if you have unanswered questions, they should go there too
<jono> well, imagine the kind of stuff people ask, or stuff that people actually ask, and then update the FAQ
<jono> the FAQ is not just about the questions we actually get, but also about questions we may get
<elkbuntu> maybe we need a 'questions list', where people can ask things
<jono> so, yeah, no urgency, but everyone keep it in the back of your head, if everyone adds a few questions, we get one fat mother of a FAQ :)
<LoudMouthMan> Evning all, sorry jono .. i was distracted with the AA page
<jono> no worries
<Plug> tbh, I actually think its quite comprehensive at the moment
<jono> Plug, its getting good, but if anyone thinks something is missing, feel free to add it :)
<jono> I also added the Knowledge Base to the main LoCo site
<JoeyStanford> fwiw, my own personal view was that I was going to add the items that came up when I started the CoLoCo.
<jono> if anyone wants to write some docs and add it to the Knowledge Base, that would be great
<jono> JoeyStanford, cool
<jono> I think docs are pretty central to the project, and I am looking to add some additional docs when I get time
<jono> any other thoughts re. docs?
<jono> anything people want to see? or feel are missing?
<looksaus> target audience docs
<jono> looksaus, what do you mean?
<looksaus> branding hints
<JoeyStanford> It would be helpful to have the setup information along with tips to help new LoCo's start.  Information about event planning for existing LoCo's.  I'd also like to see a section about sponsorship...e.g. in our case System 76 is a corp sponsor.
<jono> branding for?
<looksaus> hints on which subgroups to focus on first
<jono> JoeyStanford, this is all good stuff
<Plug> A big unaddressed issue, to my mind, is "why to do it"
<jono> Plug, another great point
<Plug> what the group gets out of it, how it relates to other LUGs etc
<newz2000> Plug: good question
<jono> how about we have a page of things that need documenting?
<jono> like a TODO of things that need going in the docs?
<JoeyStanford> Plug, very good point. I think the answers to that one question will be the same in many cases but also very different for different areas.
<dthacke1> I'd like to know what interaction to have with a huge regional group, like the 2 or 3 US ones
<jono> dthacke1, another great point
<jono> ok one sec
<jono> right I will create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamDocsToDo
<Ju> Hi all
<jono> right could you folks add your ideas to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamDocsToDo
<jono> we can use that as a source for things to document :)
<jono> I think docs are part of the key to LoCo world domination :)
<elkbuntu> lol, indeed
<looksaus> jono, with target audience docs, I tried to say
<JoeyStanford> A question that was raised our Edgy release party was Plug's: Why do we all like this LoCo concept.  I added some of our concept to the minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColoradoTeam/EdgyMeetingMinutes
<jono> looksaus, right :)
<looksaus> which groups to target primarily
<looksaus> like :
<jono> looksaus, sounds great, and important for the docs too :)
<looksaus> technical users
<looksaus> AND
<kjcole> I know it's bad form to change page names, but perhaps the sort of restructuring of wiki pages into sub-page structure might be worth considering...
<looksaus> so called 80% users
<jono> JoeyStanford, Plug looksaus dthacke1 - ok are you guys ok to add topics to that page and we can then work on them?
<john> I have been getting errors involving roxen3 and mysql.  This comes up with apt-get. I can find absolutely no explanation about this browser, roxen3. is this the place to get  help?
<Plug> jono: sure
<dthacke1> yes
<LoudMouthMan> much as I love reading log files at a later date, should we be adding some syntax like [NOTE]  to things like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamDocsToDo just to make searching this text at a later date easier. or [AGREED]  for some point.. 
<Gnomonic> looksaus: What is a 80% user?
<jono> john, nope, head to #ubuntu
<jono> awesome
<JoeyStanford> Jono, yes sir.  Might take until Sunday but it'll be done.
<looksaus> Gnomonic, a user that does very casual things with his comp:
<jono> awesome
<jono> lets move to the next topic then :)
<jono> working with other groups
<LoudMouthMan> [topic] 
<Plug> (side note: the fact that ever change I make gets emailled to ajmitch/danielholbach/nixternal feel s abit offputting ;)
<newz2000> Plug: they likely ignore the e-mails
<ajmitch> Plug: sorry :)
<jono> Plug, :P
<Plug> oh, I don't doubt that
<jono> at LinuxWorld there was some discussion with ubuntu-uk with who LoudMouthMan is one of the core members, about how we can better work with LUGs and other user groups
<jono> naturally we don't want LoCo teams to overthrow other groups, and we need to work with other groups effectively
<Plug> A primary answer is 'Canonical $stuff distribution' (shipit, etc)
<Plug> it gives the LUGs an instant reason to exist
<jono> Plug, good point
<looksaus> why would you want to do that?
<Plug> erm, s/LUG/LoCo/
<jono> well, we determined that LUGs are general support groups, and LoCo teams are really teams to help advocate and promote Ubuntu
<dthacke1> We plan on doing more outreach than the current LUG, which only does monthly meetings
<LoudMouthMan> Yes, president Popey is concerned that we dont splinter or fraction the LUG users, ive added it to the UKteam approval as Ensuring Ubuntu compliments and Enhances a Linux User group
<Plug> but it also affirms a stereotype 'ubuntu is only popular cos canonical send it to people for free' :) 
<looksaus> jono, I see this _very_ differently
<jono> looksaus, how so?
<looksaus> as lugs cater to a technical group
<looksaus> geeks and nerds
<newz2000> ah
<looksaus> and there is a group that is absolutely not like this
<Plug> our (national) LoCo covers the area of many LUGs 
<jono> looksaus, so your team caters for non-geeks?
<LoudMouthMan> but a lug is not exlcusively one specific catering subset..
* dthacke1 does agree with looksaus 
<JoeyStanford> I've documented our answer to this question on the CoLoCo page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColoradoTeam
<looksaus> yes
<looksaus> lugs are _not_ end user support
<Plug> looksaus: some are
<looksaus> if you want to break outside the geek public
<jono> looksaus, ok thats cool, there is nothing wrong with being different, we just need to be sure we don't tread on toes
<looksaus> you _don't_ go to a lug
<elkbuntu> the function of LUGs is as varied as the function of LoCos
<jono> elkbuntu, exactly
<jono> looksaus, LUGs are very varied, many do support many don't
<jono> when I toured the UK LUGs earlier this year they were hugely different
<LoudMouthMan> ooh neat .. we used Enhance as well. thats great.. Enhance is a feature!
<looksaus> my point is that you need to break loose
<looksaus> from the technical people who gather in a lug
<jono> now, LoudMouthMan made some great notes about working with other groups from the ubuntu-uk meeting
<yama> there are fears in some LUGs that Ubuntu is trying to take over. This should be avoided
<kjcole> Our LoCo "leans towards" Ubuntu, but try to throw in a good word for other distros every once in a while.  Our focus is on reaching the non-geeky, particularly in K-12 schools, libraries, and small community groups.
<jono> I would love to see some of those notes in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoWorkingWithOtherGroups
<jono> LoudMouthMan, are you ok to merge some of that in, maybe with the help of popey ?
<elkbuntu> yama, crap, they're on to us...!
<nixternal> Plug: just on your side note, the reason we get those emails, and i look at everyone, is to assist with the admin of the wiki, so if someone defaces a page, i can see it right away, or others, and fix it
<Plug> I liken the LoCo here to a virtual collection of the Ubuntu promoting focused users from all the national LUG
<Plug> s
<JoeyStanford> These are all good comments.  We've been thru this as part of the justification to setup the CoLoCo....so I refer everyone back to our team page.
<jono> yama, yeah, we need to be careful of that
<Plug> each LUG has a bunch of people who dont care about Ubuntu, and a bunch that are only ever going to be users
<Plug> (which is fine)
<jono> JoeyStanford, cool, so you have some good thoughts on this subject?
<JoeyStanford> I have *LOTS* of thoughts.
* JoeyStanford smiles.
<jono> JoeyStanford, good good :)
<LoudMouthMan> a better thought might be this : the other distros will mobilise their own communities.. this concerns LUGS more. however LUGS ar the assimilationof all distros into one common interest. hence Ubuntu LOCO teams can set the prescendence for working with them.
<jono> JoeyStanford, if you can contribute to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoWorkingWithOtherGroups as well, that would be great
<JoeyStanford> This was the primary topic ...the primary deciding aspect of setting up Colorado.  We explored it in depdth.
<JoeyStanford> in depth even.
<Plug> I generalise that 'LUGs are meatspace'
<LoudMouthMan> and I spotted that comment Jono.. i was hopping other team members would edit for me.. namely (president)Pope
<jono> it seems most loco teams are interested in advocacy and promotion too - less about support and less about physical meetings
<Plug> our LoCo can't do that, and probably shouldn't.
<looksaus> Plug, meatspace?
<jono> LoudMouthMan, ok, lets persuade him :)
<Plug> looksaus: "the real world"
<Plug> where people are made of meat, not 1s and 0s :P
<looksaus> heh
<jono> :)
<LoudMouthMan> well i was going to ask him directly thursday if it had stayed empty .. hes got the best fix on a LUGmaster concern here
<jono> LoudMouthMan, I think he can offer some sane and realistic guidence for that page :)
<jono> I think that the issue of group relations is something we *all* need to take care with - we don't want to make LUGs feel like we are overtaking them
<looksaus> if you want end users with little skills to help each other, you will need one distro for them to center around
<jono> it seems most LoCo teams though have a definitive and different direction to a LUG
<Plug> "LUGs are dying"
<elkbuntu> jono, Plug is probably equally qualified for it, given his experience
<LoudMouthMan> jono  : i agree
<jono> elkbuntu, awesome
<Plug> you need far less handholding to install Linux these days
<jono> Plug, would you be happy to add content to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoWorkingWithOtherGroups
<Plug> sure, looking now
<jono> Plug, not much to look at :P
<LoudMouthMan> Plug your not wrong .. they are dying but I dont feel thats a justification
<jono> awesome, just some things for us to think about
<elkbuntu> no reason why we cannot help change that
<looksaus> if you want to break outside a technical public
<LoudMouthMan> I know Dobbo and I spoke about it 3yrs ago thats why we started BCF and FSB meetings.
<looksaus> you want to stay away from most lugs...
<Plug> I was just saying that you need to expect some animosity from the 'old school' :)
<looksaus> you want to attract a different kind of people
<JoeyStanford> In Colorado, those LUG statements do not apply as greatly. LUGs are a backbone, albeit not as strong as they once were.
<jono> looksaus, we don't want to just break outside a technical public, but whatever your views, we are computer fans and so are they, so there are issues there
<nixternal> see, what I have been doing with the local LUGs, is just providing information/insite into the Ubuntu community..nothing more and nothing less. when i goto a LUG meeting, it is all about Linux, unless an Ubuntu topic comes up..
<LoudMouthMan> theres a phrase I see on IRC quite a lot when talking about bringing new of fresh people into Ubuntu. 
<looksaus> ah, k, sorry to have misunderstood
<jono> looksaus, we want to target non users, I am just saying we don't want to inflame negative relations with other groups :)
<jono> looksaus, :)
<JoeyStanford> Nixternal: Same here.
<LoudMouthMan> people say " I dont care " when refering to those below a set technical standard or understanding
<nixternal> i provide them with CDs when they ask..a LUG is for Linux in general, and some tend to get annoyed when you bring reteric into their community
<jono> I recommend we get that page filled out, and then we can schedule a meeting about this wide and interesting subject
<LoudMouthMan> I think it fits the Coc to start showing that Care is a feature.
<jono> everyone ok to move on?
<elkbuntu> yep
<jono> or any other comments?
<nixternal> although Plug probably would have the best LUG insite, seeing as he is from the home of the larget LUG i believe
<looksaus> well, I can say that lugs out here are absolutely not negative towards us
<Plug> We're not that large! :P
<LoudMouthMan> possibly we approach the other Distro guys ... Jon Fautley, Ted Heager ( others ? ) and discuss LUG energising.
<looksaus> au contraire
<LoudMouthMan> great so .. Plug can you start the content for us please?
<JoeyStanford> The primary separation between LUGs and LoCo's is Ubuntu in my mind.  LUGs do Linux and related.  LoCo's do Ubuntu.  We tend to have more distro specific information, translated, and with that comes a greater ability to perform outreach, training, and even support.
<nixternal> Plug: there is a guy I know that is moving there in a couple of months, and one of his reasons was the LUG ;)
<Plug> it seems that any group with one or two driving people with passion, will succeed
<jono> evidently there are lots of thoughts here, and scope for future discussion
<Plug> The trick is finding those people
<nixternal> that there is jono
<jono> I think what is important is that we have some solid guidance on that page for LoCos who are unsure of how to move forward
<LoudMouthMan> if only there was a pdcast that could talk about LUG energising ?
<jono> nixternal, awww shucks :)
<LoudMouthMan> nevermind... next !
<jono> LoudMouthMan, shut your face :P
<elkbuntu> lol
* glennji giggles at loudmouthman's sarcasm
<jono> so, we ready to rock onto the next topic?
<looksaus> yup...
<newz2000> [TOPIC] 
<dthacke1> next!
<elkbuntu> i think so
<LoudMouthMan> thanks newz
* jono hugs LoudMouthMan in a manly "did you see the bears game" way
<jono> right, education
* LoudMouthMan raises....... an eyebrow
<elkbuntu> get a room you two
<newz2000> [TOPIC] 
<LoudMouthMan> ooh good my other favourite topic.
<nixternal> wooohoooo DA BEARS!!!
<jono> many of you will have seen Richard Weiderman's post to loco-contacts about education
<jono> a bit of background
<LoudMouthMan> um no .. but lets assume i did .. man I must join more mail lists
<jono> Richard works for Canonical as Education Manager and he is keen to reach out to loco teams to help our teams get some success with education
<jono> the idea is that those teams who are interested in education would be great having an education lead
<jono> that is, a person who is happy to coordinate the education efforts of the team
<jono> this gives richard a point of contact for helping the team
<LoudMouthMan> ahh okay .. so my notes to post about sending these spare Edubuntu CDs to local Mps and Nursery Franchise owners would be useful ? I had a cover letter and all set out.
<Plug> I reposted your missive to our list and had two people say "I'd like to help, what do I do", and really didn't have much more I could tell them other than "read the wiki page & sign up".
<jono> our Colorado friends kicked it off
<jono> sure
<nixternal> yes, and I have been working on local educational contacts, and it is nice as there is an Educucational/School admin in the Chicago group, so he is making it easier for me...it seems there may be some great interest in Open Source in the school systems around here
<jono> those who want to figure out some edu contacts, add them to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamEducation
<jono> nixternal, awesome! :)
<dthacke1> NebraskaTeam is starting with local schools.  Those will be our first presentations, when we get contacts made.
<jono> this is great
<jono> one thing I would like to work on in the future is for each team to have certain contacts (in addition to the normal main contact), and education contact is a great idea
<jono> it will make it easier for interested parties to talk to each other
<jono> also, Richard has his foot in the Edubuntu camp, so we have some great opportunities there too
* dthacke1 notes that this is why we need more than three team members....
<LoudMouthMan> issues will arise as to how Education is handled as a govt department for each loco team so it will be useful to spot where common ground exists in creating awareness.
<jono> so if you could all talk to your groups to figure out an edu contact, that would be great
<kjcole> The DC LoCo has Edubuntu labs in four local high schools, and five affordable housing project labs (which are often used by the younger kids).
<jono> dthacke1, heh
<jono> kjcole, wow, send me a fridge article about that with photos and I will get it posted :)
<nixternal> DC LoCo guys, I might be out in your area soon visiting my daughter, if I find time, I would like to maybe get together and see how you all are rocking it out there
<dthacke1> kjcole, are you done with that HOWTO yet ;)
<jono> heh
* nixternal misses DC so much
* jono slaps dthacke1 :P
<nixternal> lol
<JoeyStanford> In CoLoCo's case, I gave the Edu person a title (Team Lead) and requested two, a primary and a backup, because we all know people get busy. :-) 
<newz2000> do you mean the "howto: world domination"?
<jono> this is an important point
<jono> if anyone has any success stories, do let me know so we can promote them on the fridge
<kjcole> jono Will try to send you something.  For the moment you can poke around on our not-so-well maintained page: http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/
<jono> we need the world to know our LoCo teams kick ass
<JoeyStanford> I also used the incentive.... "Being the LoCo Team Lead for Education is a great addition to your wiki page to help you become a full Ubuntu Member"
<jono> kjcole, cool
<jono> JoeyStanford, :)
<jono> so yeah, if everyone could look at arranging an edu contact that would be cool
<LoudMouthMan> jono .. what do we do to promot Fridge stories to local media , for instance in the uk informing linux user & dev chappies!
<looksaus> jono, what exactly is expected from an edu contact?
<jono> again, it would be cool to dedicate a loco meeting to education sometime, so we can have a good full discussion
<nixternal> jono: you don't want peoples names and numbers up there im guessing?
<Gnomonic> Sorry, gotta leave, will read the logs tomorrow. Good night (or whatever applies to your timezone)
<nixternal> at least those contacts might not want their info up there
<jono> LoudMouthMan, what do you mean?
<looksaus> actively working towards the education sector?
<jono> looksaus, the aim is to work with the sector to help ubuntu get used
<nixternal> unless of course it is already public
<jono> and often advocacy with schools and colleges
<looksaus> ok, maybe it would be useful to give some examples there
<looksaus> testimonials
<JoeyStanford> LoudMouthMan, Excellent Question.
<LoudMouthMan> well im off topic a little here .. but id like to ensure that a regular press cycle occurs to maintain press and media awareness of Ubuntu and Locoteam activities.
<jono> nixternal, sure, we don't want to show private details, but stats are good where possible
<looksaus> a richer "job description" if you want
<jono> looksaus, good idea, I think some case studies would be useful there
<LoudMouthMan> so if we use the fridge to post excellent news then we should drop a copy to the media some how 
<jono> LoudMouthMan, exactly
<jono> LoudMouthMan, this is part of my aim to get regular stories
<JoeyStanford> Jono, we need LMM's topic as a todo.  How to release press releases to local media.
<jono> maintaining a cycle needs people though
<jono> JoeyStanford, yes, could you add it?
<JoeyStanford> Free advertising you know :-)
<jono> it may be good to have an agenda item in the future about publicising your events too
<JoeyStanford> rgr
<jono> rgr?
<LoudMouthMan> sure .. but I was thinking about it . i'll keep on top of asking people for news and stories and puting them to the fridge .. well for UKteam at least
<nixternal> rgr == roger == 10-4
<glennji> "Roger"?
<nixternal> ;)
<jono> LoudMouthMan, cool
<jono> maybe each loco could have a press contact?
<jono> someone to flow out press info and act as a contact for journalists?
<jono> nixternal, ahh!
<elkbuntu> i think thats sort of the general contact's job
<elkbuntu> other teams may disagree
<looksaus> elkbuntu, agree
<jono> elkbuntu, possibly, but some lead contacts may not want to be press contact
<LoudMouthMan> well let them have the choice .. some roles fill naturually . 
<jono> this sounds like a mailing list discussion to get ideas
<jono> sure
<dthacke1> I'd do it as gc, until the job got too big, the split a press contact
<jono> not everyone will want these roles
<elkbuntu> fair enough
<jono> ok
<jono> move on?
<looksaus> maybe it's not as much about the roles, but about defining what someone with that responsibility is to do
<JoeyStanford> (page updated)
<LoudMouthMan> im happy to talk ... ( yeah yeah ) but id look to some one with media experience ( jono , know anyone ? ) to motivate.. but anyway 
<LoudMouthMan> [TOPIC] 
<jono> JoeyStanford, thanks :)
<newz2000> :D
* LoudMouthMan considers it all a learning experience.
<jono> looksaus, and its looking at what people are good at
<jono> LoudMouthMan, indeed
<jono> ok further ideas
<jono> I think we need to think of events and campaigns for the LoCo community as a whole
<jono> elkbuntu had the idea of a recruitment drive
<jono> which I think is a great idea
<elkbuntu> yeah, and that should get some questions asked, for sure
<Plug> Advertised where?
<elkbuntu> for the faqs
<newz2000> Plug: Ubuntu forums?
<elkbuntu> Plug, blogs and fridge woudl help ;)
<LoudMouthMan> okay well ive mentioned for the UK we have children in need coming up , so engaging with defined charaties Locally and Internatinally will be useful
* elkbuntu erases the winkey before someone notices
<looksaus> elkbuntu, curiuous about this recruitment drive
<looksaus> idea
<jono> yeah
<LoudMouthMan> id like to see if we cant get a sponsored install/hack fest day . for Children In Need.
<jono> is anyone aware of an events ideas wiki page?
<Plug> Right, I wondered if you meant "outside of that"
<jono> ok lets first talk about recruitment
<Plug> we're about to launch a NZ-package-wallpaper-contest with three goals
<elkbuntu> looksaus, we spend a day pimpin locos, guiding people to the locos for their areas they may not have thought existed, etc
<LoudMouthMan> things that drag TV Cameras out to watch things occur that are positive is useful
<Plug> 1. get a wallpaper package 2. get certified 3. get people to know the LoCo exists, and get involved with it 
<LoudMouthMan> man that was vague!
<JoeyStanford> I'm still a firm believer that while having documentation readily available on the internet is GOOD, it may not be of any benefit to someone who doesn't speak English.  Having the LoCo's  help create non-English docs is a big deal methinks.
<jono> I think it makes sense to have a recruitment day, and this could involve day long meetings on our loco IRC channels, fridge and forums posts and IRC events such as getting to know each other sessions
<dthacke1> is looking for other places to recruit besides the local LUG for reasons previously discussed
* JoeyStanford appologizes for injecting an off topic comment.
<jono> JoeyStanford, great idea - we could identify key docs and get them translated
<newz2000> JoeyStanford: Good point, do you loco teams search google and others for key phrases to see where they go?
<newz2000> (in your own language)
<jono> well should we make a recruitment day our first event?
<LoudMouthMan> JoeyStanford , in fact everyone .. whose heard of the BNI ?
<elkbuntu> jono, second considering today was docs day :
<jono> hehe
<jono> elkbuntu, smartarse :P
<JoeyStanford> Newz, in my case it's English but I'm also on a translation team so I have some experience working with non-English speaking folks :-)
<elkbuntu> i'd rather be a smartarse than a dumbarse ;P
* LoudMouthMan only speaks one langauge .. but he does it quite loudly
<jono> elkbuntu, oi!
<glennji> LoudMouthMan, not me.
* nixternal lets it be known that im both
<jono> LoudMouthMan, :P
* elkbuntu runs and hides behind someone
<jono> so maybe we have a LoCo Open Day
<JoeyStanford> newz, from my experience, you are correct.  Google or Clusty.
<LoudMouthMan> okay well if were looking for other areas to promote and recruit then locate your local BNI Chapter ( Business Network international ) and see if you drop in for a breakfast.
<jono> where each of the loco team IRC channels has events, maybe physical events where possible and other things
<elkbuntu> jono, agreed, i would assume lots of useful documenting would be done on the day, and calling it 'recruitment drive' sounds way too ominous
<JoeyStanford> newz, coupled with altavista babelfish ;-)
<Plug> ...and get it Slashdotted...
<AdamBagnall> and dugg
<glennji> jono, speaking as a "newbie" in the country AND ubuntu AND loco, I'd really like an Open Day.
<LoudMouthMan> Plug, surely we need to be Dugg ?
<looksaus> a nice recruitment activity I did in Belgium (well, the Dutch speaking 60%) was to use all my sources to find at least one person in every >50k inhabitants
<elkbuntu> Plug, if you know someone/s who can arrange that, do so
<Plug> pass, I don't do digg :P
<jono> elkbuntu, ok, I think it would make sense to have a team of us working to get all LoCo's up and running with an Open Day
<yama> "Recruitment drive? You mean Canonical is hiring???"
* yama prpares his CV :p
<Plug> yama: good point
<newz2000> yama: www.ubuntu.com/employment
<jono> I think just saying "lets do an Open Day" is not enough to get all LoCo teams involved
<elkbuntu> jono, you know i'll be there
<jono> elkbuntu, cool :)
<Plug> "Whats in it for them"?
<elkbuntu> this is going to take a few weeks of plotting
<jono> right, well I will send out a mail about the open day
* JoeyStanford pokes Jono to let him know he has a further comment on LoCo Support when there is a break.
<jono> yes, luckily we can talk at the UDS
<elkbuntu> yes, indeed
<elkbuntu> who here will be at UDS?
<jono> JoeyStanford, sorry?
<JoeyStanford> jono: I have a topic change when you are ready
* JoeyStanford will be at UDS.
<jono> JoeyStanford, oh np, we will finish this up first
* looksaus too
<jono> awesome, should we have a open day meeting?
<jono> we can organise it when we are there
<ajmitch> elkbuntu: you know I will be :)
<elkbuntu> ajmitch, well yeah, i was hoping to find out things i didnt already know
<elkbuntu> jono, yes, agreed
<jono> cool, so people happy to make the open day our first major event?
<elkbuntu> heck yes
<JoeyStanford> Question for the Group: Has anyone developed a "what's in it for me?" list (besides the small bit my team did) for recruitment?
<jono> JoeyStanford, no, and that should go in the docs where possible
<elkbuntu> JoeyStanford, hmm? 'warm fuzzy feeling' doesnt cut it for some?
<elkbuntu> ;)
* JoeyStanford pokes the Elk.
<jono> we could do with some art for things like that
<Plug> solves "Get involved or fuck off"
<elkbuntu> Plug, rofl
<JoeyStanford> hehe.. Yeah it comes up a lot here.
<jono> maybe some standard posters for "reasons to be cheerful" :)
<JoeyStanford> Not just why Ubuntu but why a LoCo
<JoeyStanford> I'll add it to the Todo list
<jono> :)
<elkbuntu> rock on, JoeyStanford :)
<jono> nice work JoeyStanford :)
<jono> ok, any other ideas to bring up right now?
<JoeyStanford> me me me
<newz2000> jono: I added two things to the agenda
<newz2000> we can talk about them later if you like
<jono> newz2000, my only concern is time, we are nearly out
<jono> newz2000, as per the first item, I have been working on that
<jono> newz2000, sorry for the delay, been swamped
<jono> newz2000, and I got your mail for the second one too
<jono> newz2000, there is a session at UDS about standardising resources
<newz2000> no prob, its good to be able to say you're workign on it
<jono> newz2000, can I suggest we keep those items for the next meeting?
<newz2000> That is just fine for me.
<jono> newz2000, awesome
<jono> so, next item folks?
<LoudMouthMan> yep
<jono> Emil? are you here?
<elkbuntu> what is his irc nick?
<jono> no idea
* dthacke1 .oO(crickets....)
<jono> anyone know who Emil is?
<elkbuntu> scouring for info now
<newz2000> opi according to launchpad
<jono> not here?
<elkbuntu> -NickServ-           Last Seen: 5 hours 12 minutes 29 seconds ago
<newz2000> opi :No such nick/channel
<jono> just pinging
<jono> erk
<jono> ok, well we can't discuss that without him
<jono> so we will defer that too
<jono> just before we finish...
<Plug> which makes it time for lunch :P
<jono> if everyone could look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamsUDSMVSpecs
<jono> these are the specs I have added for the UDS that are LoCo related
<jono> I am still working on filling them out
<jono> if anyone has any thoughts or comments, at them to the pages so we can cover them at the sessions
<jono> I will be blogging about it soon to drum up interest in the issues
<Plug> I've told ajmitch he must attend all of these. :P
<jono> and final, final thing, how is this time for everyone for a meeting?
<jono> Plug, :P
<looksaus> jono, do you prefer additions as comments to these pages?
<jono> looksaus, yes please
<looksaus> ok
<jono> I should outline that on the page really
<LoudMouthMan> okay well i can see a few items in that which Popey would find interesting
<dthacke1> jono, time is not bad.   
<newz2000> jono: I'm here
<jono> looksaus, well, they can be visible, but identify the comment with your name
<newz2000> dthacke1: we're in the same timezone :)
<looksaus> k
<jono> we are still finding out feet with meeting times, so lets see what people think
<jono> well, I think we are done folks
<elkbuntu> :)
* JoeyStanford definately likes this time. :-) 
<dthacke1> newz2000: hi neighbor, can I borrow a cup of Edgy CD's?
<jono> you are doing an awesome job with our community, I am really proud of everyone :)
<jono> lets keep kicking arse in new and different ways :)
<LoudMouthMan> hmm better hire octopuses then .. they can kick arse 8 ways !
<elkbuntu> we have you to thank though, jono.
<JoeyStanford> +1
<jono> I think if we continue to grow the project, get our docs written, we can do some awesome stuff :)
<looksaus> +1
<LoudMouthMan> but cheers Jono
<jono> :)
<kjcole> I'll try to remember to keep up with this (I got away from all the on-line stuff for a while)...  Later all
<newz2000> dthacke1: just burned my first last night!
<jono> nice one, thanks folks :)
<newz2000> dthacke1: where is the nebraska team based?
<newz2000> (where in Nebraska that is)
<Rinchen> Good question, I can smell and Colorado and Nebraska shindig
<dthacke1> Omaha for now,  I need more help, so I'm going to start recruiting out west.
<jono> later all!
<newz2000> dthacke1: cool. I'm not far, in Des MOines
<newz2000> Rinchen: where are you at?
<Rinchen> Denver/Boulder
<dthacke1> Is there an Iowa Team or are you working with the Midwest team
<newz2000> I'm not part of either team, and as far as I know, there is no Iowa team.
<Rinchen> I've been thinking about reaching out to you and others nearby to have a multi-state Ubuntu Conference.
<newz2000> Rinchen: I used to live in Windsor Colorado
<newz2000> near fort collins/greely.
<Rinchen> Ah, well, I'm 66 and County line :-) 
<dthacke1> newz, I have a daughter in college down in Lamoni, I was thinking of doing something down there.  Maybe you could give us a hand?
<newz2000> maybe. I think you're my closest loco team
<dthacke1> Well, we decided we'd start with a day's drive from Omaha, including Western Iowa, until Iowa started doing their own thing. 
<newz2000> dthacke1: have you had any group meetings yet?
<dthacke1> but we're only a week old.  Just got mailing list last night. 
<newz2000> ah, so that's a no.
<newz2000> :D
<Burgwork> is the locomeeting done?
<Burgwork> can we move out of -meeting?
<newz2000> sure
<dthacke1> yep, heading to locoteams
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-01
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<digitalmouse> greetings programs! :)
<juliux> hi jsgotangco 
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<juliux> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00: Technical Board
<pips1> hi
<highvoltage> good afternoon
<rodarvus> good morning :)
<jsgotangco> hello
<juliux> hi all
<willvdl> hi
<jsgotangco> just before we start i just want to say to everyone in edubuntu that i'll be leaving for a while and sort out things at work
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: saw your post to -doc
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: will you be able to make ec meetings at least?
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: sure but i was thinking of resigning there as well
<highvoltage> ok
<RichEd> hello all ... meeting will be starting in 2 minutes ... in the meanwhile, please all take a look at:
<RichEd> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
* pips1 will miss jsgotangco
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: well, I hope you'll be able to make ec meetings for a while still
<jsgotangco> its not like i wont go on irc, i'll just be a passive spectator that's all
<pips1> jsgotangco the lurker!
<RichEd> jsgotangco ? where was the post ? can you send it to me ?
<RichEd> I'll post that page link again for Kamping_Kaiser :
<RichEd> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
<Kamping_Kaiser> thankyou
<RichEd> That will be the basis for most of our meeting today. 
<RichEd> We will need to look at the user requests, and match against the specs recorded ...
<pips1> RichEd: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-November/007280.html
<RichEd> And then see what is missing that we need to add to specs
* ajmitch should drag himself along to 1 or 2 of those spec sessions
<ajmitch> especially the network-auth stuff
<RichEd> I myself will need some technical help with the matching :)
* RichEd is back in 2 mins ... quick restroom break
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: how long do you think you'll be away for? do you have an idea how long it would take to finish doing the block of work that you're taking on?
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: i plan to take a rest the whole of feisty and just be a user then come back on feisty+1
<highvoltage> ah, ok
<jsgotangco> i'd still do some stuff though but not so much involved
<highvoltage> so roughly 5-6 months
<ajmitch> RichEd: how much overlap is there in some of those specs?
<ajmitch> eg edubuntu-network-auth-server and easy-ldap-server, or edubuntu-network-auth-client & network-authentication
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: i felt i haven't been that much effective lately so i'll take a rest on that and focus
<Kamping_Kaiser> ajmitch, we dont know - i finished colating them 10 minutes ago
<Kamping_Kaiser> mabye 15
<RichEd> ajmitch: not sure, we can talk them through ?
<highvoltage> ajmitch: I believe the current list is just a summary of different suggestions that have come up, the list itself still needs to be refined and cleaned up
<RichEd> ==== okay everyone ready ====
<RichEd> === meeting discussion doc: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu ===
<RichEd> all do a quick refresh ... I neatened / fixed the bullets
<ajmitch> RichEd: ok, I think we can probably reduce the duplication
<ajmitch> I've subscribed to all the auth-related ones for mtv
<rodarvus> dude
<rodarvus> someone added about four pages of information in the last 30 seconds :D
<RichEd> great ... I'll add comments to the wiki doc as we work through in the meeting, and we can clarify ...
<ajmitch> rodarvus: heh ok :)
<RichEd> rodarvus: mostly cut & pastes from the users emails ... quite a lot of overlap we will be able to knock out
<rodarvus> *nods*
<RichEd> right ... can I ask you all to scroll to:
<RichEd> General Existing Request
<RichEd> Dynamic Menus <- this is already being worked on by LaserJock ... the ability to be able to switch desktop menus ... I think it is significant for teachers in a mixed audience environment
<RichEd> So I would like to add my personal priority support for this one.
<RichEd> I'll make sure it is up for a UDS discussion topic
<RichEd> The next 2 items:
<RichEd> #
<RichEd> Edubuntu "bundle" for Seconday Schools
<RichEd> #
<RichEd> Edubuntu "bundle" for Universities
<RichEd> This will largely be:
<fernando> "ltsp-fat-clients" duplication on discussion doc
<willvdl> presumably this maps to the CD pack debate?
<Kamping_Kaiser> fernando, theres probably a block of 5 that are duped - i double pasted
<RichEd> willvdl: yep that will be more in the *how* but let's talk about the requirement first
<RichEd> 1. a different desktop menu
<RichEd> 2. different base install applications
<RichEd> --
<RichEd> Can someone give me guidance on who selects the menu and base install applications ?
<jsgotangco> its called seeds
<jsgotangco> techboard does that
<rodarvus> it would be nice to have LaserJock here to complement the default explanation with his work
<jsgotangco> as well as -desktop
<RichEd> jsgotangco: does techboard do this across Ubuntu and Edubuntu ?
<rodarvus> but as jsgotangco says yes, this is done on a per-distro basis (ubuntu, xubuntu, edubuntu and kubuntu)
<highvoltage> the preseeds usually just selects the -desktop package, and then the -desktop package is dependent on all the programs that should be installed.
<rodarvus> the techboard gives recommendation on what each distro should have
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco, does that mean 'tech bord do in asociation with edubuntu', or 'they say what edubuntu gets'?
<jsgotangco> RichEd: depends on the seeds
<highvoltage> at the moment ogra maintains edubuntu-desktop, afaik
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: depends on the seed management
<rodarvus> but we (edubuntu core devs) have a reasonable free hand on what we add to our 'seeds'
<RichEd> and how early does this get fixed in the spec process ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok
<rodarvus> and ogra has chosen not to add to Edubuntu stuff that was added to Ubuntu in the past
<rodarvus> (for space restrictions, mainly)
<RichEd> Do we have to have this list of applications completed by the end of UDS, or is there time to add to them ?
<rodarvus> so, I'd say techboard gives the direction on the 'skeleton' packaegs that *must* be present. We (Edubuntu) have a free hand to chose the rest.
<jsgotangco> you don't have to decide during the sprint
<ajmitch> I believe there's time after UDS to finalise specs & even propose more
<jsgotangco> but you can raise to the techboard during the sprint that you'd like this
<rodarvus> we'll have plenty of weeks after UDS to chose what packages we want, but its nice to have something done on this regard, during the week
<RichEd> Right, so can we suggest what "dicsussion topic" we can create to cover this ... something like: "mutiple edubuntu 'editions" and how to cope with them"
<RichEd> sub-topics
<RichEd> - space considerations
<RichEd> - application considerations
<rodarvus> RichEd, right.
<RichEd> - when we need the final list
<jsgotangco> correct
<rodarvus> I can add a feature for this
<rodarvus> and we can ask mdz to mark it as essential or at least high priority
<RichEd> - what testing needs to be done
<rodarvus> (your feedback on this will make sure it gets prioritized correctly ;) )
<RichEd> - what licence checking needs to be done
<highvoltage> RichEd: there's also packaging. software that ships with edubuntu has to be in main as well, afaiu
<RichEd> highvoltage: noted ... main / universe / multi-verse etc needs to be part of the discussion
<RichEd> okay ... I'll make a topic based on the above ... I will do it on the wiki page first, and then register it in launchpad
<RichEd> moving on to the requests now from list subscribers
* pips1 finished reading through the UdsMtvEdubuntu page
<RichEd> Eric Harrison : K12LTSP
<RichEd> Eric will be at UDS, hosted by Oliver and myself ... and note that David Trask is an educator tagging along with Eric.
<highvoltage> oh great
<highvoltage> I wish I could be there to meet them too :)
<RichEd> Eric is a *significant person to get happy with Edubuntu*
<rodarvus> RichEd, I took notes too. as soon as we're finished with the meeting (and after a few other things) I'll create the spec, and send email to you and mdz
<rodarvus> ok to go ahead with that?
<jsgotangco> Eric is great
<RichEd> rodarvus: fine ...
<RichEd> :)
<RichEd>  Management issues i.e.
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       adding/deleting users
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       group management
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       different desktop configurations for different groups
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       monitoring usage
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd> Which fearures at the top of the page cover this area ?
<RichEd> *features
<RichEd> [different desktop configurations for different groups]  this obviously fits into the dynamic menus
<ajmitch> edubuntu-network-auth-server covers some of the user/group management via smbldap
<willvdl> as does nis-ldap-migration?
<ajmitch> yeah
<RichEd> okay ... and  ltsp-management-gui ?
<ajmitch> direectory services team has been busy writing up some stuff
<willvdl> and easy-ldap-server?
<ajmitch> yes
<rodarvus> RichEd, what day do you plan to arrive in the US?
<ajmitch> I'm not sure if we want to try & resolve overlap now or at UDS
<RichEd> ajmitch: I'll dig deeper on those in LP and see what notes people have, and that may clarify
<RichEd> rodarvus: saturday just after lunch 
<fernando> ajmitch: are you a directory service team member?
<ajmitch> fernando: yes, I'm fairly involved
<rodarvus> RichEd, Saturday the 4th, or the 11th? (just to make sure :) )
<ajmitch> since I've got a reasonable chunk of GUI code for client setup
<RichEd> rodarvus: 4th :)
<RichEd> okay ... moving on: Remote access
<rodarvus> great!!
<RichEd> comments ?
<RichEd> Ubiquitous access to computers in schools is a great thing.
<RichEd> Ubiquitous access to those computing resources from the kids' homes is even better.
<Kamping_Kaiser> what sort of remote acccess?
<willvdl> vpn?
<Kamping_Kaiser> off site, or 'i see your screen'?
<RichEd> I'm presuming he is talking about accessing your school work on the school server while on your home PC
<RichEd> --- it this a reasonable requirement at this stage of our development, given that not all that many of our users will have a PC and internet at home ?
<jsgotangco> that's pretty cutting edge
<jsgotangco> i mean why can't moodle stack up to something like that
<Kamping_Kaiser> remote access from home i wouldnt do now. 'teacher sees student screen' i would suport now
<RichEd> I think in the US, the home PC and cheap internet may be a reasonable chunk of people, but not for the rest of the world
<RichEd> Okay ... I agree with Kamping_Kaiser 
<jsgotangco> if its just within the lab its doable
<RichEd> 'teacher sees student screen' <- are there existing open source tools that will do this, and which will work with Edubuntu ?
<RichEd> highvoltage ???
<willvdl> highvoltage, NetOps! :)
<highvoltage> RichEd: I think it's part of the long term goals for s-c-p
<jsgotangco> vnc, nx, stuff like that
<RichEd> i.e. the question is ... do we need to develop this, or can we bundle an existing application
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: I believe s-c-p will have some kind of vnc integration at some stage
<highvoltage> RichEd: it's being develeped
<jsgotangco> its pretty doable as an s-c-p plugin for sure
<highvoltage> pity cbx33 isn't here
<RichEd> highvoltage: thanks ... but how do we ensure that it is in feisty ? can you pin it down for me ?
<highvoltage> he has some ideas around that
<willvdl> highvoltage, isn't there some schooltool devel in that arena too?
<highvoltage> RichEd: ogra is looking at some open source nx too, there's a bunch of technical options a tthis stage, but it's impossible for me to give an estimate on timeline, it certainly looks possible for feisty, whether it's plausable would be discussed at the summit
<RichEd> questions for ignorant me ... I presume this would be expected to work over any networked clients and not just an LTSP setup
<RichEd> and #2 would anyone see this as being a general ubuntu requirement ?
<highvoltage> willvdl: in schooltool? not that I've seen before. must be very new if there is :)
<jsgotangco> it adds up another layer of bandwidth for LTSP already if you use remote access
<RichEd> i.e. in an iCafe, that would also be useful
<jsgotangco> but a typical school lab would like to do that
<highvoltage> RichEd: it should work on full machines too, it might be dependent on installins some additional software on the machine, but that shouldn't be a problem
<rodarvus> sorry, I was reading specs and lost the meaty vnc stuff
<RichEd> and my #2 what chance is there that Ubuntu people would see a need for this in the general network world ?
<rodarvus> afaik, not only SCP should be able to do it, but it is on the TODO Plans
<RichEd> would it be useful for a help desk support person where the clients are using Ubuntu on the work desktop ?
<rodarvus> remote access is easily doable on the teachers computer, using vnc
<rodarvus> if I'm not mistaken, there is even a button for this already
<Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, remote vision would help for helpdesk
<jsgotangco> RichEd: its already used heavily, we just need to integrate it
<jsgotangco> the technology is pretty mature
<rodarvus> (which might have been removed just in time for freeze, when cbx33 didn't had the time to finish the feature)
<RichEd> jsgotangco: bang on the head ... if it exists, we need to provide directions
<jsgotangco> like what the others said you have vnc and nx
<jsgotangco> and s-c-p integrated
<highvoltage> yep.
<RichEd> okay ... I'll make a topic for integrated remote access / remote mangement of client workstations
<Kamping_Kaiser> scp?
<highvoltage> Kamping_Kaiser: student control panel
<rodarvus> Student Control Panel
<RichEd> we can talk about the current state and future plans at the session
<Kamping_Kaiser> aaah, thanks
<rodarvus> better call it SCP or s-c-p, so we don't confuse with 'scp' from OpenSSH :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> thats why i wondered ;)
<RichEd> ==== moving on ... time is short for the long list ====
<RichEd> Wireless/mobile devices: We are seeing more and more "non-desktop" computing devices
<highvoltage> that's rodarvus's area of expertise :)
<RichEd> rodarvus and I have been chatting with mark around some areas that touch on this ...
<RichEd> Mark's feeling is that the current level of school child mobile device is not a signficant education tool
<Kamping_Kaiser> ++
<RichEd> I do not think we need to lead here ... more keep our eye on developements, and make sure that people who are heading in this directions themselves consider us for a platform.
<RichEd> i.e. we will not kick off or champion any projects
<RichEd> so I'm dropping that one to the bottom of the list
<RichEd> ===
<rodarvus> agreed
<highvoltage> it's also dependent on a mature ubuntu-embedded
<rodarvus> (and work would be too heavy stuff for it to be lead by us)
<pips1> there are some field test with mobile devices used in education with students... I read a report somewhere
<RichEd> highvoltage: and that's just to get the end user device ... then there is formatted content, push server, cost management al that to go through before the first useful lesson is delivered !
<jsgotangco> on our side we've been looking at the gumstix
<jsgotangco> but on the server side
<highvoltage> RichEd: indeed :)
<RichEd> === moving on ===
<RichEd> Web-based applications: Applications such as Moodle are in high demand
<pips1> true
<willvdl> LAMS
<RichEd> This topic has been raised before ... can someone give me comments on that is practically being suggested ? Bundling Moodle functionality into Edubuntu ?
<RichEd> on *what is
<jsgotangco> LAMS is pretty cutting edge but has a logical workflow
<Kamping_Kaiser> whas in demand - what moodle provides, or web based apps?
<jsgotangco> but Moodle functionality is relative to how one uses it
<RichEd> LAMs is a partner that we need to get close to ... but as I understand it ... this would all run in a web browser ? Please correct me if I am wrong.
<RichEd> Same for moodle based information sites ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<willvdl> not only moodle, but schooltool, library packages, SAMS and the like
<RichEd> So is there a need for us to develop or integrate anything ? That is the part I am not sure about
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> you're already have schooltool
<jsgotangco> packaging moodle has been a target before
<highvoltage> the schooltool bundled with edubuntu is very limited though
<Kamping_Kaiser> choosing one thing and shifting it into main, and leaving other stuff in universe but available makes sense - i just cant offer an option on what to select wehre
<jsgotangco> yes
<RichEd> ^^ jsgotangco: that is what I meant by previous discussions ... what would packaging entail ?
<highvoltage> Kamping_Kaiser: it also gives the software a change to be widely tested before it becomes supported
<RichEd> wouldn't moodle be like any other application ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yse, true
<highvoltage> s/change/chance
<jsgotangco> RichEd: well as a webapp, it has its usual dependencies
<jsgotangco> you're basically running a webserver
<pips1> The way I see the Moodle / LAMS / insert-your-edu-web-application-here situation is: the management issues will be crucial for their adoption.. If it is easy to setup (by a.) lab admins and b.) teachers ) and use (by teachers and students), it will be used. However, a big problem is the whole unresolved/non-integrated "identity management" issue (Authentication, User/Groups Management)
<highvoltage> at the edubuntu summit, php was an issue. lots of ubuntu developers felt that php should not be included in any ubuntu CD
<highvoltage> and moodle and mediawiki depends on php, so it was a big issue.
<Kamping_Kaiser> should something as big as moode+depends be on the cd though?
<Kamping_Kaiser> i thougth it was pretty chunky addition
<RichEd> so ... in our thinking we have been bouncing around about "approved official ubuntu / edubuntu space" and the planned "end user unofficial ubuntu and education space" would it make sense then to slowly bring Moodle and LAMs in from the "recommended by other users" space, and then we can slowly look at moving it towards the ofdicial space ?
<rodarvus> actually, MediaWiki itself was a much bigger problem than PHP
<RichEd> *official space ?
<rodarvus> PHP has a huge history with security - but its bugs are always plugged in time
<jsgotangco> we do support PHP as well
<highvoltage> RichEd: I think that's a great suggestion, when the work has already been 'done' unofficially, it's much easier to bring in officially later on
<jsgotangco> but Mediawiki has a history
<RichEd> i.e. get comments and experiences from people using it, some forum discussions, some "if you8 want to use it here are some recommendations"
<rodarvus> while MediaWiki's recommendation is "upgrade to latest version", which is not practical for linux distributions
<rodarvus> (and much worse for a LTS such as Dapper was)
<pips1> RichEd: ++
<highvoltage> and the web packages in ubuntu goes largely unmaintained, so it's difficult to use
<Kamping_Kaiser> rodarvus, sounds like moz.corp :(
<highvoltage> for example, drupal in ubuntu is still on 4.5.8-2
<RichEd> highvoltage: yes, because we also get an idea of how much the end user community wants the application, and then this can add weight to the later php bunfight 
<highvoltage> that's ancient :)
<highvoltage> RichEd: yep
<Kamping_Kaiser> would up to date versions of these packages help people adpot/trial them?
<RichEd> okay ... noted ... === moving on again ===
<pips1> Did anyone understand my point about the non-integrated "user management" above at all? :)
<jsgotangco> RichEd: sometimes, these tihngs are better off installed sepeartely by the user for various reasons (maintainability on the distros part, security, etc)
<RichEd> jsgotangco: agreed ... we have been suggesting a space for suggestions like this ... "you are on your own but you may find this useful"
<pips1> anyway, just to be realistic: I don't think any web-apps like Moodle/LAMS/etc. will end up in "main" Feisty
<RichEd> and if the demand is high, we move towards the official support
<RichEd> i.e. "a free for all advice space", with a path to upstream, with its usual approvals and hurdles
<Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, are you thingking 'external (not packaged) -> packaged (universe) -> packaged (main) ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> and you say you can use from anyware, and if its more used, it goes closer to main?
<pips1> Kamping_Kaiser: I think that is how it should ideally work
<RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser: yes, with one more step ... the space will say clearly that this is NOT official ubuntu / edubuntu policy or approved ... for example ...
* pips1 notes 1 hour passed
<RichEd> There are some applications that people pay for, but which they find value for money, but which would phreak out the hard core FOSS crowd. We still want to be able to make our users aware of what is being used, and they can make their own decisions.
<jsgotangco> RichEd: well we can say we don't package this, but we provide instructions on how to do this in edubuntu when you download tar.gz from blah
<pips1> RichEd: when you are restructuring that UdsMtvEdubuntu page, I suggest you try to think along the following lines: Requirements
<pips1> A. Users Viewpoint
<pips1> B. Technical Viewpoint (*buntu Implementation/Developers)
<RichEd> noted pips1 
<RichEd> ===== time flows === we move on ===
<RichEd> Flawless, easy support for Linux servers supporting Mac and Windows clients.
* ajmitch wanders off to sleep - fire off any questions about network auth stuff to the ubuntu-directory list if you wish
<RichEd> Flawless, easy support for Linux clients/servers in Mac and/or Windows centric environments.
<flint> RichEd, speaking of time, just converted to daylight savings... 
<RichEd> --> I see these as fitting into and being covered by the network auth topic ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> in what way does the linux server have to support rthe client? (perhaps i should be thinking big here?)
<rodarvus> RichEd, not really, I think
<rodarvus> it is the other way around
<rodarvus> (but can be dependant on network-authentication)
<RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser:  I guess authenticating a Win W/S Mac OS against the user base
<jsgotangco> like an active directory?
<RichEd> Sharing server storage space, authentication to get out of firewall ?
<rodarvus> my vote for this one is: its important, but not *really* Edubuntu specific, *and* dependant on network-authentication
<jsgotangco> this is soo out of touch
<jsgotangco> and way out of edubuntu's core competencies
<RichEd> jsgotangco: I think he means in reverse of AD ... i.e. not our Edubuntu w/s authenticating against AD, but other clients authenticating against our logins
<flint> rodarvus, you make a good point about not edubuntu specific...
<RichEd> so, would this be a topic that would interest Ubuntu  ?
<rodarvus> I also believe its a time consuming task. anyone cares enough for it to volunteer doing it in feisty timeframe?
<rodarvus> I am able to help tutoring the developer in question, if there are takers for it.
<jsgotangco> hackish
<rodarvus> RichEd, yeah
<RichEd> i.e. if you have an entire Ubuntu network, and the damn DTP / graphics department insists on using Macs, how do they fit into the network ?
<flint> RichEd, we had macs booting off LTSP at NELS.
<highvoltage> flint: that's different to authentication
<Kamping_Kaiser> the questions more about auth isnt it?
<RichEd> flint, but wasn't that Macs running *buntu, not MacOS
<flint> RichEd, indeed it was... 
<RichEd> Well I can create a feature topic, and we can see if anyone else subscribes ? If it dies, it dies.
<RichEd> Note that this may also be being worked on by 3rd party util developers or even debian or other FOSS people.
<rodarvus> indeed
<pips1> They way I see it. All lot of the Requirements listed on the wiki page touch on lots of stuff that isn't Edubuntu-specific, but *buntu. Looking at it from the Distribution-Viewpoint, I suggest the following categories:  Technical Viewpoint
<pips1> 0. "Bundling" (meta topic)
<pips1> 1. Hardware/Device support (big overlap "Ubuntu-base" <-> Edubuntu)
<pips1> 2. Networking (big overlap "Ubuntu-base" <-> Edubuntu)
<pips1> 3. Applications (some overlap)
<RichEd> So it is not necessarily our problem to solve. If the real world demand is that high, someone will be looking at it
<pips1> 4. Content (some overlap, mainly Tech Doc)
<rodarvus> Fedora has a tool for this, but its not automatic stuff
<rodarvus> (and this tool can not be used on Ubuntu, at least not easily)
<flint> RichEd, I got here late, but has anyone addressed the Schools Interoperability Framework (SIF) as part of our goals?
<pips1> flint: no
<RichEd> flint, give me one min on that ...
<RichEd> pips1: 100% this is first pass discussion ... that page should shrink and refine over the next day or two, and again on Saturday when yourself and myself and ogra and rodarvus are in the same room.
<flint> RichEd, I try to keep things entertaining :^)
<highvoltage> RichEd: how will outside participation work?
<RichEd> so pips1 your comment and structuring is right time at right place
<jsgotangco> goo question
<RichEd> highvoltage: that is the last topic ... we can fix the agenda to get there in 30 mins to give us 15 mins on that issue alone
<pips1> flint: SIF is big in US, but not really on the map anywhere outside US, afaik
<highvoltage> ok
<willvdl> flint, I imagine that falls more into application space (schooltool etc)
<RichEd> flint: Tom Hoffman has been working on OpenZIS and SIF and has built a demo ... he has been chatting to myself ans Steve Midgely
<RichEd> *and
<flint> pips1, ah sort of like SAE in mechanical areas...
<RichEd> That is a big issue for Tom and Steve, but not so big for us (as per above comments)
<RichEd> I am sure Tom would be thrilled to have you in his loop ?
<flint> RichEd, The idea of supporting services in this SIF framework seems worth proposing, merely that
<RichEd> Shall I send an email linking you ?
<flint> RichEd, I am quite fond of Tom, and meet with him as regularly as possible.
<RichEd> flint: perhaps you could have the broad discussion with him, and be our bridge ?
<RichEd> flint and the late joiners see here:https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
<flint> RichEd, Have you had a chance to set down with Tom at any of these conferences?
<RichEd> we are on the last section under Eric Harrison
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm sorry all, but i need to go sleep time :( good luck with the meeting, i'll try and find out what happened tomorrow :)
<RichEd> flint ... IRC and skype is the sum total of my interaction with him to date
<RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser: thanks for your help :) check he wiki page tomorrow for refinement
<RichEd> Right === moving on ===
<RichEd> My personal items of interest align with the LTSP developer goals:
<RichEd> Complete the LTSP work we started in Detroit.
<RichEd> Help Ogra with his LTSP management utility
<RichEd> Local application support
<RichEd> Improved sound support
<RichEd> (not me, eric :)
<RichEd> I think these are all covered  ???
<pips1> what does he mean by  Ogra with his LTSP management utility? is that s-c-p or what?
<RichEd> pips1: ltsp-management-gui
<pips1> thanks
<RichEd> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ltsp-management-gui
<RichEd> === Franois BARILLON ===
<RichEd> * users-groups management
<RichEd>   * creating 50 or more students at a time
<RichEd>   *  putting them into groups-classes
<RichEd>   * managing passwords
<RichEd>  * creating common folders
<RichEd>   * sending a file to an entire group
<RichEd> --> is this an area of ours, or schooltool ?
<RichEd> highvoltage: ?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<pips1> well, 
<jsgotangco> its something ubuntu can benefit
<jsgotangco> its pretty much user management
<pips1> there needs to be some kind of interface in-between *ubuntu user/group management and schooltool's
<RichEd> I was just thinking that ... ubuntu and a large office network 
<flint> RichEd, the line between Schooltool and Edubuntu LTSP is somewhat grey.
<highvoltage> yes RichEd?
<RichEd> comment on the above ?
<highvoltage> I think it's also a case of 'most of the tools already exist' and it just needs to be brought together
<pips1> that's what I was talking about earlier: integration of Webapplications (Schooltool, Moodle, .. ) and the Desktop is non-existing
<flint> Based upon this I will add a comment that examining the user XML in the SIF could yield profitable result.
<willvdl> pips1, how would they integrate anyway?
<highvoltage> ubuntu already has users/groups, and a user admin tool, common folders isn't difficult, but a management tool for this would have huge value to the end user teacher
<RichEd> well can I suggest that we look at ubuntu group management from one end, and start "unofficial guidelines on usage of SchoolTool" from the other end, and see where they meet or overlap towards feisty+1
<pips1> The most commenly used "bridge" I know of is LDAP directories (OpenLDAP, but also proprietary ones like AD, etc.)
<jsgotangco> this just involves a lot of scripts that needs a front end
<fernando> ltsp-mangement-gui have a ldap integration?
<RichEd> fernando: there is another spec * easy-ldap-server
<pips1> I think there is a big muddle around the whole area...
<pips1> Lots of specs about that whole area with overlap, but no clear picture
<pips1> I'm talking about:
<pips1> * edubuntu-network-auth-server / easy-ldap-server
<pips1> * edubuntu-network-auth-client / network-authentication
<pips1> ?
<flint> RichEd, "unofficial guidelines on usage of SchoolTool" sounds like an excellent place to start!
<RichEd> yep ... there is stuff proposed by ogra and also by Ubuntu Directory Services ... I assume these would collapse into one broader topic
<pips1> The way ogra is currently thinking about this, afaik, is that Ubuntu Directory Services will implement the Ubuntu-base, and he will work on additional stuff that is needed to make it work with LTSP
<RichEd> flint ... you missed the same suggested approach to moddle and LAMs etc. so SchoolTool would be #3 ... "partner applications you may find useful" and then we have a specific forum where we look ate demand and hassle and decide if and when to get closer or "move the relationship upstream"
<RichEd> moodle not moddle
<pips1> hehe
<pips1> moddle
<flint> pips1, When I want to piss Tom Hoffman off, I refer to schooltool as "mini-moodle" :^)
<RichEd> pips1: ^^ agreed ... because we also add sbalneaves to the picture ... and he may be developing some of this in LTSP 5+1 which will be available to us
<highvoltage> sbalneav has lots of ldap foo
<pips1> ... continuing from what I said above: But ogra also seems to be determined to find and implement his own entire solution, if it turns out that the Ubuntu Directory Services discussions at UDS MV won't end up with a clear plan and little support from the devs..
<flint> RichEd, Keep in mind, the result of the "unofficial guidelines on usage of SchoolTool" might point to AD, LDAP all of which might synch with SIF.
<RichEd> Perhaps we need to plan an "integration of topics and requirements session" for LDAP, Directotry, Auth etc. as one of the first meetings on Sunday, and then combine the meeting subscribers into a bigger consolidated session
<rodarvus> pips1, nothing beats quality code. if you guys prepare a great project in UDS MV, and implement it in feisty timeframe
<rodarvus> there is *nothing* ogra or anyone else can do against it :P
<pips1> RichEd: that sounds like a good plan!
<RichEd> flint: so noted ... then we get an idea of the real demand ... and that dictates our level of focus
<RichEd> pips1: perhaps you and I can work on a spec for this, and register it in our names
<pips1> rodarvus note that I'm not a developer! This is just me talking! :-)
<RichEd> === time is running out ==== agenda again ===
<RichEd> -> The German-french team of Skolelinux/Debian-Edu is working on Cipux users management and a customised version of moodle. 
<RichEd> covered above
<highvoltage> what is Cipux?
<pips1> Cipux is something like s-c-p but with more features implemented already
<RichEd> highvoltage: I missed that .. was focusing on the moodle comment ... but thanks pips1 
<RichEd> -> Edubuntu should be able to administrate users in a ldap or to connect with an external ldap.
<RichEd> covered above
<willvdl> can we steal it?
<RichEd> -> It should be possible to connect edubuntu from windows clients. it should work as a domain server.
<RichEd> covered above
<RichEd> -> Niko Lewman: I would love to have Pysycache in edubuntu. With it on edubuntu would be a complete setup for preprimary education.
<highvoltage> hmmm... that gives me an idea for another spec...
<RichEd> ^^ That would fit into a list of possible applications to bundle ... so no urgency ... will add to the list
<pips1> willvdl: ogra has reservations about it.. he as already met and talked with the Cipux dev, afaik, and ogra mentioned that he will discuss it at MV
<RichEd> highvoltage: ??
<rodarvus> what is pysycache?
<highvoltage> we could bundle putty and x-server and make an 'edubuntu-windows-client' so that people can connect to their edubuntu session from a windows machine
<highvoltage> a windows based ltsp client, if you will.
<RichEd> rodarvus: I'm guessing it is an end user application
<rodarvus> never heard about it
<rodarvus> pysycache -> "Teach children to play with the mouse !"
<willvdl> highvoltage, is that arguable a thin-client though?
<rodarvus> a tool like gcompris, it seems
<willvdl> or just a remote login/session
<rodarvus> http://www.pysycache.org/
<RichEd> beat me to it :)
* pips1 notes that we are just 3/4 down the wiki page...
<RichEd> PySyCache - and children use the mouse. ... For this, PySyCache offers pleasant activities based on simply objects and a lot of photographies. ...
<RichEd> so just an application
<RichEd> === Simon Ruiz ===
<rodarvus> yeah, should be a no brainer to add it
<highvoltage> rodarvus: edubuntugirl says you should look at http://www.pysycache.org/
<rodarvus> promoting it to 'main' is another subject, though
<pips1> sure thing .. :)
<rodarvus> highvoltage, Google told me the same a few seconds ago ;)
<RichEd> yep ... same policy as above ... start in the recommended space and let it work it's way towards the bundled space if and when it makes sense
<RichEd> #
<RichEd> I'd really like to see an "Active Directory Compatibility" package that can be simply installed through Synaptic that depends on all the necessary packages and configures them correctly,
<flint> RichEd, I presume that you will get a chance to talk to Tom Hoffman in Mountain View, send him my kindest regards.
<rodarvus> it seems PySyCache is meant for childrens even younger than the public of gcompris
<RichEd> Simon has an issue where the US school he is at wants to allow only workstations that can authenticate against "native AD".
<rodarvus> (and only meant for children to learn how to use the mouse)
<RichEd> It looks a bit like a policy to keep Open Source off the network
<RichEd> Does anyone here know if you can currently authenticate an Edubuntu w/s against AD without AD knowing you are not MS ?
<RichEd> (pips1: I am keepin an eye on the time a big chunk of the remainder is comment and duplicate)
<RichEd> no response ... so moving on ...
<flint> RichEd, the authentification question can be a trap.
<jsgotangco> RichEd: you can't
<stelis> RichEd: Winbind isn't distro specific
<jsgotangco> RichEd: forgive me you can
<stelis> It's just getting the config right 
<RichEd> so do we need work or just config instructions ?
<stelis> Which is several different files, and a bit arcane
<jsgotangco> RichEd: its like how AD distinguishes non-XP clients (NT below)
<stelis> Graphical tool + packages
<RichEd> stelis: on the AD server, or on the w/s
<stelis> The w/s
<RichEd> great. will take this one offline.
<RichEd> -> The rest of simon is application suggestions ...
<RichEd> === Kevin Cole ===
<RichEd> applications
<RichEd> === David Trask ===
<RichEd> Sound & video ... config help I think ... no development
<pips1> highvoltage: Cipux is not really comparable with any one application, I think... It a big application that does lots of things in the network admin realm... sort of a webmin-plus-schooltool-plus-s-c-p ? dunno 
<RichEd> Then a whole lot of single sign on, which Oliver feels is under control
<pips1> highvoltage: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/CipUX
<flint> RichEd, David is sorta rooting for Samba/LDAP eh?
<stelis> The risk is that different methods use different LDAP fields
<stelis> So things can be incompatible
<pips1> flint: yep, we went throught all that already
<RichEd> that will be a sub-discussion in the topic ... the meeting requirement is in place
<RichEd> ??
<highvoltage> pips1: thanks
<flint> stelis, "different methods use different LDAP fields" could be fixed with a SIF compliance...
<pips1> flint: stop distracting RichEd :)
<flint> pips1, np
<stelis> flint: I'll Google a little on that
<RichEd> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/CipUX <- this could fall under "partenrship to cultivate" suggested already by Nicalas
<stelis> and add a note to the spec
<RichEd> okay ... that's the main chunks ... once I have revised the wiki page, you are free to make comments on that page
<RichEd> Let me have control of the page for tomorrow ... and on Friday, I am on airplanes for 23 hours, so you guys can edit then, in time for rodarvus pips ogra and I to review in the US before the meeetings
<rodarvus> right
<RichEd> sorrt that is not clear: on friday, you guys can have the page
<rodarvus> I'll be on airplanes for 24 hours on friday too
<rodarvus> (starting 22:00 UTC)
<rodarvus> but I'll be working all day, before that
<RichEd> ==== 10 mins for final topic ===
<RichEd> Remote Participation
<RichEd> -> What facilities are requested / suggested ?
<RichEd> what suggestions do you guys have ?
<jsgotangco> for the summit?
<RichEd> should we make a temporary channel ?
<jsgotangco> just use skype, its painless
<RichEd> Yep.
<jsgotangco> who cares for now if its non-free it works
<flint> RichEd, they tried to use teamspeak at one of the conferences, it did not happen...
<RichEd> something like #edubuntu-uds which is not announced ... so no user support ... just conference copics ?
<RichEd> *topics
<RichEd> jsgotangco: do you mean a skype voice conference where you can join & listen ?
<willvdl> with an agenda/time-log posted somewhere
<RichEd> highvoltage: you should be commeting on this topic ... you asked for it !
<jsgotangco> well sure i thought you had some people who are suppposed to participate but not able to physically
<flint> RichEd, strangely enough, the net & AV support at the conferences is sporatic at best.  Be mindful of this in planning linkups.
<highvoltage> sorry, been distracted here
<rodarvus> just to let you guys know - its not entirely practical for us attending UDS to hang on irc channels, most of the time
* highvoltage catches up
<rodarvus> because we change rooms a lot
<rodarvus> and we don't always have connectivity
<RichEd> flint: that is why I was suggesting an IRC low bandwidth requirement ... skype may break the feed
<highvoltage> RichEd: I was told before that canonical has been organising infrastructure to allow external communication, and that members will be informed before the summit
<RichEd> rodarvus: any and all suggestions will be "best effort" ... no guarantees unless the body is in the room.
<pips1> I wonder what facilities will actually happen to be in place and working ... after all, it is google headquarters. wooohoo! ;-) 
<flint> RichEd, good, you see the point.  at this time keep expectations low.
<jsgotangco> even the greatest companies have their weaknesses
<pips1> oh yeah
<rodarvus> RichEd, sure, taking this in consideration (maybe even having it on the topic of the channel :) ) I totally agree with the idea.
<RichEd> well, let me wrap with this suggestion: if you want to be notified ... add your name and email address to:
<RichEd> Who would like to participate in UDS discussions ?
<jsgotangco> considering timezones? i doubt i can/will
<RichEd> on: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
<RichEd> if you want to check in with one of us, look out for: #edubuntu-uds
<rodarvus> one improvement we could do over UDS Paris is to "announce" result of the BoF meetings, after they are done
<stelis> I'd like to sit on the auth discussions if that's possible
<rodarvus> I've seen this happening in Gnome's Boston event, last month
<RichEd> which may or may not be up, and which may or may not be populated
<rodarvus> its nice for those that are interested on the subject, but were not able to assist the meetings
<flint> RichEd, I will do what I can to monitor https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
<RichEd> stelis: we may end up with the practical situation that we post meeting summaries at best ... this should however allow you guys to raise comments where you see a potential train smash, and we can then arrange to raise concerns (if possible)
<RichEd> ~~ bong ~~ end of meeting bell ... things to do ...
<stelis> RichEd: OK. Hopefully the directory-services and edubuntu guys will be able to hash things out in person
<RichEd> any final issues from the floor ??
<jsgotangco> see you all and thanks for all the fish
<willvdl> good luck at UDS
<jsgotangco> i might be online, i might be not
<jsgotangco> but ill take time to visit
<RichEd> stelis: sure ... but I am sure that some of you may have inspired moments ... so we will try to make a space for you to raise them before the concrete droes
<RichEd> *dries
<pips1> stelis: maybe the ubuntu-directory irc channel will be used during MV, I don't know
<rodarvus> RichEd, do you want to register the irc channel now?
<rodarvus> announce it to edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users, etc
<stelis> pips1: Good point
<RichEd> rodarvus: that may raise expectations too high
<RichEd> perhaps when the wiki page is neat, we can announce that on the list ... and we can have a not about the channel on the page
<RichEd> *note
<flint> Good luck to all at UDS in MV!
<RichEd> then it means only the serious / committed people who read to the bottom of the page will get involved, and not just the casual rabble rouser ?
<RichEd> going once ... 
<RichEd> going twice ... 
* RichEd looks around ... no hands ?
<flint> The casual rabble rouser is buzy with his new house.
<flint> RichEd, have fun.
<flint> ...and regards to Jane.
<RichEd> flint: i would see you as a professional, not casual :)
<RichEd> thanks all ...
<RichEd> will say Hi to Jane from Flint
<flint> RichEd, thanks in return....
<pips1> thanks, good meeting
<flint> pips1, indeed one of the best I have gottne to.
<flint> gottne gotten.  sksk
<pygi> sorry for jumping in
<highvoltage> sorry, lost my connection home toward the end of the meeting
<RichEd> no problem ... final agreement was ... if you want to be kept up to date with remote facilities, add your name to the bottom of the wiki page
<RichEd> we will add an IRC channel to that page
<RichEd> and we will mail that page to the devel and user groups
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team
<Riddell> hi sebas, seele
<Riddell> hi pinheiro 
<sebas> Hi Riddell, seele, pinheiro 
<sebas> First off, I've got the flight confirmation, Riddell 
<sebas> Don't we love spamfilters?
<pinheiro> hi guys
<Riddell> sebas: phew
<Riddell> pinheiro, seele: your flights booked ok?
<pinheiro> gess so
<Riddell> pinheiro: only guess?
<Riddell> imbrandon: around?
<pinheiro> well i dint do much and it the frist time i do this 
<Riddell> pinheiro: but you confirmed them with the travel agent?
<pinheiro> yea
<pinheiro> dionne
<sebas> You should've gotten a confirmation number, do  you have that?
<pinheiro> i have a reservation number it it the same?
<sebas> Yes
<Riddell> I have a reservation number, so that had better be it :)
<pinheiro> ok 
<pinheiro> :P
<sebas> pinheiro: Did they tell you that you won't be able to enter the country without a bottle of vintage for sebas?
<sebas> You know, US customs are bitches
<pinheiro> hahahahahahaaa
<pinheiro> so i heard
<Riddell> do make sure you take the address of the hotel with you
<Riddell> Wild Palms Hotel
<Riddell> http://www.jdvhospitality.com/hotels/hotel/20
<Riddell> so, quiet meeting I guess, anyone heard from John Tapsell or Josef Spillner?
<pinheiro> heeee nop
* sebas didn't
<pinheiro> been here for a while
<seele> i am afk for about five more minutes -- phone meeting
<seele> Riddell: yes, my flight is booked
<Riddell> seele: great
<Riddell> so first thing I was going to say is you need a launchpad account and to register yourself as being at the meeting
<Riddell> https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend
<pinheiro> did that
<Riddell> groovy
<imbrandon> pong
<imbrandon> sorry a bit late
<Riddell> hi imbrandon, you all sorted for travel?
<imbrandon> yup, infact i was preping for it now
<imbrandon> is why i was late :)
<imbrandon> bags ready , tickets gotten, hotel hookedup 
<seele> ok back
<Riddell> so next thing is the meeting format
<Riddell> which is based around discussing and writing specifications
<Riddell> the ones registered so far are at https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs
<Riddell> you should take a look at the ones that interest you and subscribe to them
<Riddell> and if you think we should be discussing something that isn't there make a spec and let me know
<imbrandon> i made one to discuss koffice ( but its approved already )
<Riddell> imbrandon: mmmm, yes
<imbrandon> i think thats the only one i havent mentioned
<Riddell> hi kwwii 
<Riddell> kwwii: travel all booked?
<kwwii> owdy Riddell, sorry I am late
<imbrandon> i do have one small question though before we get too started if i may , whom is John Tapsell
<kwwii> Riddell: yes
<imbrandon> hehe
<Riddell> kwwii: registered at https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend ?
<Riddell> imbrandon: he's a KDE developer, maintains ksysguard among other things
<imbrandon> ahh ok
<kwwii> Riddell: yepp
<imbrandon> just wondering as he seems to be my roomie
<imbrandon> anyhow do we have a adept spec ?
<imbrandon> err package manager spec
<Riddell> kwwii: browsed at the specs? https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs
<Riddell> imbrandon: kubuntu-feisty-adept-changes
<Riddell> imbrandon: kubuntu-update-manager
* sebas didn't know kwwii would attend.
<imbrandon> rockin, we really need to cover that one
<kwwii> Riddell: not yeet...I was thinking about adding some art specs
<Riddell> kwwii: yep, good idea
<Riddell> although speccing art is always a bit beurocratic
<jjesse> can i interupt and ask if gobby will be used like it was in paris or will something better be used?
<imbrandon> maybe just a general one to get the direction of the feisty art
<sebas> I'm afraid there is nothing better (and free) yet
<kwwii> imbrandon: that is the thing, we had something like that last time (like "artwork for edgy should be on time")
<jjesse> thanks seele
<jjesse> doh sorry thanks sebas
<dholbach> here
<kwwii> not sure if it would not be better to add a bit more info this time around, or try to improve the processes we started for edgy
<Riddell> dholbach: you were talking about art specs in e-mail, anything come of that?
<imbrandon> right
<dholbach> Riddell: no, there's no artwork specs in LP for uds-mtv yet
<imbrandon> i think the kubuntu processes went alot smoother than the ubuntu way, so if we could iron that out
<kwwii> I was CC'ed in a mail today about that
* sebas waves at dholbach 
<dholbach> hey sebas
<sebas> hey there!
<kwwii> imbrandon: yeah, but we are not on the community art level that ubuntu is
* dholbach hugs the Krowd
<kwwii> imbrandon: if we want everyone to attend we need to give them the right info so that things don't get all messed up again and again
<kwwii> s/attend/contribute
<Riddell> kwwii: so I'd say registed kubuntu-feisty-artwork, subscribe pinheiro and yourself
<imbrandon> kwwii, i would like to see a spec on how i can make art.kubuntu.org help in the feisty process smoothly
<imbrandon> that might help moreso than the wiki this time
<kwwii> imbrandon: I think that we need to know in advance where different kinds of work will be done
<kwwii> the wiki, art.ubuntu.com, mailing list, etc.
<pinheiro> be back in a sec dinner time
<seele> i am unfamiliar with some of specifications, if anyone knows where i should be subscribed, can you drop me a note
<kwwii> it is still not totally clear, and once art.ubuntu.com gets up and running it might get confusing
<Riddell> seele: are you registered to attend the meeting on launchpad?  https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend
<imbrandon> its been up and running a week or more now, there are over 100 accounts
<imbrandon> kwwii, ^
<seele> Riddell: yeah, for some reason it says seele instead of celeste
<Riddell> seele: then click the spec name link at https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs and "Subscribe yourself" at the side
<Riddell> seele: launchpad has "seele" as your real name and "celeste" as your short nickname
<Riddell> seele: which is fine with me
<seele> Riddell: my point was i dont know enough about some of these to know where i can help
<seele> Riddell: eg: what is HWDB, that is the only one with "usability" in it
<imbrandon> the hardware database front end
<imbrandon> iirc
<Riddell> seele: anything with a UI would be where we need you...
<sebas> seele: That's no problem, you usability guys are versatile enough to be of use in most of the meetings :>
<sebas> Just choose the ones that sound interesting to you, you'll get dragged in everywhere anyway :>
<seele> lol
<imbrandon> :)
<Riddell> seele: kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity,    kubuntu-update-manager, driver-device-manager, kubuntu-feisty-language-selector, kubuntu-samba-integration, kubuntu-feisty-adept-changes, kubuntu-feisty-system-settings  all likely candidates
<seele> Riddell: ok, thanks
<imbrandon> seems we will have a good kde showout this round
<sebas> Riddell: Kubuntu driver device manager ... is that something from a certain "Vijay Kiran Kamuju"?
<sebas> I've seen his name come along in the guidance "i wanna help" mail 
<Riddell> sebas: no, it's the KDE version of https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/driver-device-manager
<sebas> Or does anyone know?
<sebas> Riddell: So there's somebody who wants to work on this.
<imbrandon> please tell me some of you will chime in on the beryl-by-default spec too , its not near ready 
<Riddell> sebas: not as far as I know, but if one gets made for gnome then we'll want one in KDE.  
<sebas> beryl by default would be a *very* bad idea.
<imbrandon> Riddell, we can stay with kwin for now if ubuntu does that correct ?
<sebas> Especially for KDE.
<Riddell> sebas: that kubuntu spec is marked as depends on driver-device-manager, so it can be ignored unless driver-device-manager gets anywhere
<imbrandon> sebas, yea its a good idea, just not /yet/
<sebas> Riddell: I'll email you about that later.
<sebas> Well, what we want is that stuff in kwin (seli!)
<Riddell> imbrandon: yes, we'd stay with kwin and hope kwin has enough bling in kde 4
<sebas> beryl just doesn't integrate with KDE at all.
<imbrandon> Riddell, rockin
<pinheiro> back
<imbrandon> sebas, yea they released some kde stuff for it yesterday in svn but its very very new and isnt good for default
<imbrandon> kde4 should be our answer
<sebas> Ah, hm, maybe I should check that out.
<sebas> Absolutely.
<Riddell> pinheiro: poke kwwii to register a spec and make sure you're subscribed
<sebas> I wouldn't want something as rockstable as 3.5 to be fscked up by eyecandystuff like beryl.
<kwwii> pinheiro: do you have a launchpad account?
<pinheiro> yea
<imbrandon> sebas, +1
<pinheiro> my name is nuno
<imbrandon> plus it messes with all the key binding s and other stuff some take for granted
<kwwii> pinheiro: cool, later I'll add a spec and we can talk about it :-)
<pinheiro> cool
<imbrandon> and dosent handle dual head monitors etc
<pinheiro> one thing i would like to ask,  is if there are some computr available so in the meeting so i can do some work?
* imbrandon gets back on topic
<Riddell> pinheiro: hmm, no, you don't have a laptop?
<imbrandon> i'll be brining a laptop, as will most , not sure if there are general use computers
<sebas> imbrandon: Well, it does handle dualscreen :>
<imbrandon> sebas, yea but not well
<imbrandon> :)
<pinheiro> heeeeeeee mine is a bit completly broken
<sebas> What problems are you refering to?
<sebas> http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=633 
<Riddell> anyone have a laptop they can lend pinheiro for the week?
<imbrandon> sebas, window screen resitance and max windows accross screens
<Riddell> I wonder if I can blag one off my brother
<sebas> imbrandon: Aight, that's mostly working fine.
<imbrandon> i only have one , well i have a 133 pentium but i dont think it would be worth loading
* sebas only has one.
<pinheiro> i will try to find one
<Riddell> any other questions?
<imbrandon> is there a schedule for the first day yet ?
<sebas> When does everybody return?
* sebas will stay in SF until Tuesday
<Riddell> imbrandon: no, they're usually made on the morning of the day by the automated BoFicator
<imbrandon> i'll be there till saturday
<kwwii> I am leaving friday afternoon
* sebas is talking about Tuesday 14th
<imbrandon> right
<Riddell> imbrandon: last time the automated BoFicator didn't take into account that we need KDE/Kubuntu stuff scheduled each day, so we just made up our timetable for much of the time
<sebas> I missed the party in Paris, no way that happens again :>
<imbrandon> Riddell, ahh ok
<Riddell> sebas: I'm saying in SF for another week at the top secret Canonical meeting
<seele> lol
<sebas> That 'we make our own timetable' worked quite well IMO, the group wasn't big enough to need a boficator
<imbrandon> hahah thats the 3rd person that called it top secret but announced it 
<imbrandon> :)
<nixternal> haha
<sebas> Riddell: When's that exactly?
<sebas> Maybe we can grab a beer or twenty somewhere
<Riddell> sebas: the following sunday to saturday
<sebas> Aye, also in mtv?
<Riddell> so saturday is a free day 
<Riddell> sebas: no, in San Francisco somewhere
<sebas> Ah, cool.
<nixternal> i appologize for feeding the troll in #kubuntu-devel
<sebas> How will we get from SF airport to mtv?
<Riddell> sebas: with the excellent US public trasport system known as the private taxi
<kwwii> I am thinking about renting a car, in case anyone is arrinving midday on saturday they could catch a lift
<Riddell> sebas: costs about $40-50
<Riddell> sebas: http://www.supershuttle.com/
<nixternal> you would be better off getting a few of your together and taking a limo, it will be cheaper
<sebas> kwwii: I will arrive somewhen then
<nixternal> super shuttle is a rip off btw, they have that crap here in chicago as well
<imbrandon> kwwii, i'll get there about 1030am :)
<sebas> No way my cellphone works there
<seele> doesnt a cap only cost 30-40$?
<seele> *cab
<Riddell> I arrive 16:35 on BA287
<imbrandon> thats what i was thinking
<Riddell> sebas: mobile phones, that's something I havn't thought about
<Riddell> so arrive with dollars for taxi and change for phones
<seele> Riddell: do you have a gsm phone?
<Riddell> seele: yes
* sebas arrives at 13:30 with KLM605
<seele> shouldnt it work?
<kwwii> hehe, my phone will work, so anyone who wants a ride around 14:00, call me :-)
<imbrandon> gsm phones should work
<Riddell> does the US have GSM now?
<seele> lol
<sebas> Yeah, but the wrong kind
* sebas brings drums
<imbrandon> yea but i dont know if its compatible
<imbrandon> but sprint is gsm
<seele> it should work, Jan's phone works when he is here
<sebas> Isn't that the 1900mhz thing which europeans don't have?
<kwwii> sebas: good idea, smoke signals might be misinterpreted
<kwwii> if your phone is at least a tri-band, it will work
<sebas> kwwii: Well, try to bring a lighter on the plane ... 
<kwwii> of course, you need international roaming too
<Riddell> I might try and borrow a triband phone off someone
<imbrandon> kwwii, shoot me your number , i should be there arround then
<sebas> Who else knows arrival time and flight number already?
<nixternal> if you have GSM enabled phone, you will be fine
<nixternal> or you should be fine rather
<imbrandon> sebas, i have mine already
* sebas doesn't feel like waiting 3hrs at the airport to save 15$
<sebas> imbrandon: tell us then :>
<imbrandon> 1030am 
<imbrandon> is when i arrive
<kwwii> imbrandon, and anyone else: +49 176 239 136 09
<imbrandon> sebas, elkbuntu gets there at the same time, we were gonna try to share a cab or something
<pinheiro> anyone arrives friday arround 2100
<sebas> Do you usually need the pincode of your creditcard to pay something in the US?
* sebas doesn't have the code anymore
<kwwii> sebas: nope
* DaSkreech just mentions that kwin by Seli isn't compatible with beryl's plugins
<imbrandon> sebas, no
<sebas> Gooood.
<seele> UA951 20:13 from IAD
<sebas> DaSkreech: Well, he said he wants it to be so
<sebas> seele: What's IAD?
<imbrandon> F9  653   04NOV DENVER/SAN FRANCISCO  0830   1010
<seele> dulles international, one of three DC airports
<sebas> Aye, thanks
* imbrandon is gonna convert everyone to Mt Dew before the week is over
<Riddell> reminds me, must bring Irn Bru to enlighten another country
<imbrandon> heh
* sebas is fine with being converted to any drink
<sebas> bottles on a plane are OK?
<Riddell> best avoided I think
<kwwii> nope
<kwwii> no liquids
<Riddell> infact I don't even know about laptops UK->US
<imbrandon> i doubt it, unless its in checked luggage
<sebas> How do you carry the booze then?
<imbrandon> no liquids
<kwwii> empty bottles, perhaps
<sebas> That's kinda pointless
<kwwii> :p
<imbrandon> not even toothpaste in carry on *rolls eyes*
<imbrandon> NO liquids
<imbrandon> all has to be in checked luggage
<kwwii> so here is a question: for edgy we had the ubuntu and kubuntu art specs together...perhaps we should split them up?
<sebas> And don't forget to uninstall libdvdcss everybody!
<nixternal> imbrandon: so make sure you pee before you leave, otherwise they will arrest you for "terroristic loaded bladder"
<imbrandon> kwwii, i say seperate, as they are pretty diffrent animals
<kwwii> imbrandon: yeah, and the actual status of them is always different anyway
<imbrandon> yea
<Riddell> kwwii: they were the same specs?  I'd definately say separate them
<kwwii> ok, so I am going to make about 5 specs for kubuntu-art
<pinheiro> 5 ? so many?
<imbrandon> lemme know what they are , so i can subscribe to some of thtem
<Riddell> pinheiro: don't complain, it gives you more karma if you're subscribed to more specs :)
<kwwii> 1) boot art (grub and usplash, 2) login and splash, 3) desktop wallpaper, 4) website and release pic, 5) help and start pages
<Riddell> Lure!
<pinheiro> hahahaha
<nixternal> hehe
<kwwii> 3) desktop wallpaper and other elements
<Riddell> Lure: you're in the US already yes?  and travel all sorted?
<Lure> yes, I am in Orlando
<Lure> flying to SFO on Sat
<kwwii> 6) CD artwork
<pinheiro> 5 turns out into a 6
<pinheiro> :P
<Riddell> Lure: registered your attendance at https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend ?
<Lure> Riddell: yes
<kwwii> 7) oxygen icons for kde4 :p
<pinheiro> that one i like
<pinheiro> :P
<DaSkreech> I like my Oxygen
* Lure will have to read the irc logs as I could not get online for this meeting
<Riddell> Lure: and finally, browsed the specs and subscribed to any you're interested in?  https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs
<DaSkreech> It's a precusor to being able to Tango :)
<Lure> Riddell: need to do another round as some were added recently
* sivang wonders which meeting is this now, kubunut? :)
<Riddell> Lure: sounds like you're all sorted then
<sebas> siretart: Yeah, that one
<DaSkreech> Why are people so nutty about kubu?
<Riddell> sivang: a top secret meeting of KDE/Kubuntu mountain view preparation
<sivang> Riddell: ah, yeah, so it seems :)
<imbrandon> sivang, yea what Riddell said, dont tell anyone or you'll get roped into doing something
<sivang> Riddell: shame I can't join the fun as I won't be attending :)
<sivang> imbrandon: ^^
<sivang> :-/
<imbrandon> ahh
<sivang> I would love to be voulenteerd to do something
<Lure> sivang: you can do it from home ;-)
<imbrandon> Riddell, so how many KDE/Kubuntu types are attending this round ?
<sivang> gotta go, Lure : we'll see :)
<imbrandon> more than paris ?
<Riddell> imbrandon: 3 Kubuntu, 5 KDE, same as paris
<imbrandon> ahh
<Riddell> assuming John Flux and Josef S turn up
<Riddell> I'll try and phone them
<imbrandon> see we should be KDE/Kubuntu not GNU/Linux ( sarcasim )
<imbrandon> heh
<kwwii> kinda wierd saying that nuno is coming as a kde person...it should probably be internal as it deals with distribution specific graphics...but I'll shut up
<imbrandon> Riddell, ahh did i tell you i dot intouch with the new debian amarok maintainer and i'll probably be made co-maintaier on it , and I filed a ITP for libmtp and its in NEW in debian
<imbrandon> s/dot/got
<Riddell> imbrandon: excellent
<imbrandon> the current 1.4.4 in debian mirrors ours
<Riddell> I think this meeting is about done, any questions?
<imbrandon> he got it from kubuntu.org
<nixternal> which way to the pub?
<Riddell> oh, remember to bring headphone/microphone headsets if you have them
<imbrandon> i have them i can bring for someone to use, but my laptop has no mic jack
<sebas> For teamspeak?
<imbrandon> so i'll have an extra set for someone if they forget/dont have thtem
<Riddell> sebas: we're being brave and using SIP this time
<Riddell> which will probably work even worse than teamspeak
<imbrandon> heh
<nixternal> haha
<Riddell> ok, see you all on Saturday for an early start on Sunday (last bus to google at 08:30 as a remember, so anyone late is in trouble)
<imbrandon> :)
<highvoltage> Riddell: enjoy!
<imbrandon> see yall there
<Lure> see you
<highvoltage> imbrandon: I won't make it this time, but will see you at the one after :)
<sebas> Riddell: Ah, cool.
<sebas> The problem is not the technology, btw.
<sebas> The problem is that meetings where 3/4 is physically there and the rest connected with non-pro equipment just don't work well.
<Riddell> sebas: yep
<sebas> So we're done?
<highvoltage> sebas: the other problem is that we don't quite know how we'll be connecting, do we?
<kwwii> and it does not work on ppc
<sebas> highvoltage: What do you mean by connecting then?
<sebas> I suppose you can call in somewhere, like a conference call
<highvoltage> sebas: yes, that is what earlier announcements said, but will it be ediga? teamspeak? we don't know yet. I'd like to set up before the time and test on my connection.
<highvoltage> but there's been little details so far.
<Riddell> kwwii: twinkle should
<Riddell> highvoltage: SIP (twinkle/ekeiga)
<kwwii> Riddell: twinkle? guess I'll look into that when I get there :-)
<kwwii> having so many devs around with ppc's should make it easier :p
<kwwii> Riddell: one last question: do specs normally roll-over from one release to another?
* sebas leaves 
<sebas> Cheers everyone!
<kwwii> bye sebas
<highvoltage> Riddell: ah, cool. thanks.
<Riddell> kwwii: you need to re-register them for the summit
<kwwii> Riddell: the thing is this...for edgy we had several specs for artwork, with both ubuntu and kubuntu in one spec. wondering how to go about seperating them
<Riddell> kwwii: just make new ones, call them kubuntu-feisty-artwork-boot etc
<kwwii> I guess I should just add new ones for kubuntu-feisty-artwork-* and let them do the work when they change theirs
<kwwii> yeah
<Riddell> kwwii: it's not even clear what ubuntu artists are coming yet
<kwwii> wow
<kwwii> I thought mark might invite trae to come, since he sent an email saying he was interested
<kwwii> trae sent an email, I mean
<kwwii> but anyway...
<kwwii> thanks for the info
<kwwii> I will start making wiki pages and specs
<kwwii> btw. I will also update the "standard official" kubuntu logo on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuArtwork soon
<kwwii> Jane sent me colors a long time ago...guess we should update that too (just saw it when I stumbled through the wiki)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Nov 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-02
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
(cjwatson/#ubuntu-meeting) yes, if you have time, sketching out specs in advance rarely hurts, and saves the rather limited time at the sprint
(cjwatson/#ubuntu-meeting) or possibly gives you more opportunities to consume coffee
(cjwatson/#ubuntu-meeting) pitti: thanks
(cjwatson/#ubuntu-meeting) doko: next
<doko> cjwatson: argh, please delay me to the end
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> mvo: next
<mvo> Done: 
<mvo> - bug triage
<mvo> - prepared SRU
<mvo> - research dist-upgrade failure causes
<mvo> - prepared specs
<mvo> - mail catchup (still some way to go)
<mvo> Specs:
<mvo> High:
<mvo> - common-customizations: parts were done for edgy, needs research whats left
<mvo> - auto-dist-upgrade-testing: needs work for better test coverage and deployment on the servers
<mvo> - binary-driver-education: we can use the notification-hooks for this
<mvo> - dist-upgrader-fixes: needs more analysis what went wrong
<mvo> - easy-codec-installation: happy to help with the installer backend or with the extraction of the information from the archive
<mvo> - enabling-additional-components: mostly prepared in paris
<mvo> - kubuntu-update-manager: needs qt-frontend + support in adept_updater
<mvo> - scalable-installation-testing: interessted as far as it includes better testing of the upgrade process
<mvo> Medium
<mvo> - dependency-removal: infrastruture in place, just need to switched to "automatic" (and better aptitude integration)
<mvo> - kubuntu-feisty-language-selector
<mvo> - server-upgrade-tool: should be relatively straightforward to add a text-ui
<mvo> Interessted in general: bullet-proof-x, beryl-by-default, default-network, services, zeroconf-networking,  dbus-restarts,  xen-by-default,  old-kernels-removal
<mvo> Additonal goals for feisty:
<mvo> - apt-https, apt-sha256, apt-sync, dist-upgrader-arch-any, install-on-plug, kubuntu-gdebi,update-notifier-non-admin-mode
* cjwatson rather agrees with mdz's status whiteboard comment on install-on-plug
<mvo> cjwatson: the "hermes" package from guadalinux is probably all we need
<cjwatson> mdz's comment was not so much that it was too hard, but that it was crack :-)
<mvo> oh
<mvo> :)
<cjwatson> anyway, we can talk about it
* mvo misread that
<tkamppeter> Hia all, sorry for being late, forgot that 16:00 UTC does not switch with daylight saving time and so our meetings are one hour earlier in northern hemisphere winter months.
<sivang> mvo: hmm, isn't old-kernels-removal part of system clean up tool ?
<mvo> sivang: yes
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: actually it switched from 1500 UTC to 1600 UTC, all very confusing; we need to look at the winter time scheduling
<cjwatson> iwj: can you redo whatever it was you did to calculate decent meeting times for this half of the year?
<cjwatson> mvo: thanks
<cjwatson> ogra: next
<iwj> cjwatson: Willdo, yes.
<ogra> Done:
<ogra>  * Prepare for LTSP BTS2006, prepare for UDS
<ogra>  * Downloaded all my merges from MOM
<ogra> Todo before UDS:
<ogra>  * LTSP BTS2006 (starting today)
<ogra> Specs (by importance for edubuntu):
<ogra>  * edubuntu-network-auth-client/server: about integrating a default directory server setup, its essential to have that available in feisty to be able to cope with whole school setups as all other edu distros use them ... merely about integrating smbldap which is used in nearly all other edu distros...
<iwj> I'll send out a datagathering email but I was waiting until we were together to I can harass people in person.
<ogra>  * edubuntu-on-two-cds: make edubuntu release on two CDs instead of one to get over the space probs we have since the beginning
<ogra>  * edubuntu-install-profiles: have different preseeded profiles to select from during install (university/preschool/highschool etc), should be integrated with the menu profiles LaserJock started in edgy
<ogra>  * edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound: switch ltsp to polypaudio for bi-directional sound setups (mic support) for VOIP etc
<ogra>  * ltsp-management-gui: essential upstream requirement for ltsp now ...
<ogra>  * student-control-panel-upgrade: further improvements and debranding of S-C-P
<ogra>  * ltsp-fat-clients: full diskless workstation support for ltsp (needs a network auth server in place)
<ogra>  * ltsp-persistent-home: mount your ~/ from a USB flash drive on ltsp clients
<ogra>  * live-cd-share-live-cd: integrate ltsp on the liveCD
<ogra>  * increase-hwdb-participation: see cjwatson ...
<Riddell> ogra: any sign of hwdb being improved on the server side?  we don't get much information out of it
<ogra> Riddell, i have access to the servers in the DC 
<ogra> (since a week or so)
<cjwatson> iwj: I thought the previous data would do
<ogra> elmo has the data to out it there 
<ogra> s/out/put/
<cjwatson> it's really important to get that server move done
<ogra> but we're still lacking an SQL backend
<ogra> that needs to be programmed and set up for proper searching etc
<Riddell> shouldn't there be a spec for that then?
<cjwatson> I'm very unconvinced about edubuntu-on-two-cds; it would be quite a bit of installer and CD image hassle, and mdz didn't sound terribly convinced on the approvers call
<ogra> i'm fine to attack one side in feisty but not both ... so either server or client ...
<highvoltage> cjwatson: can you suggest any alternatives?
<cjwatson> not here, let's talk about it in MtV
<ogra> right
<highvoltage> ok
<pitti> what about keeping the core install on one CD and have the second one as a pure add-on apt source?
<pitti> true, /me shuts up
<ogra> i dont like that
<rodarvus> :)
<iwj> cjwatson: I think I should recollect it; the people involved have changed, and some people have differently differing timezones in the winter.
<ogra> i'd like it to act like debian does with multi CD installs 
<ogra> but as cjwatson said .... MTV stuff
<cjwatson> ogra: that's something mdz and I *explicitly* don't want
<cjwatson> in fact mdz brought up that very example
<ogra> thats what i suspected :)
<cjwatson> ogra: are all the edubuntu specs you care about on the mtv agenda?
<ogra> we cant release on DVD by default so we'll need a CD solution of some kind
<ogra> cjwatson, yep
<cjwatson> I don't see edubuntu-install-profiles on the list
<cjwatson> are you sure?
<ogra> wrongly prioritized though 
<highvoltage> ogra: didn't you mention you wanted the xfce one on there too?
<ogra> highvoltage, not my spec
<rodarvus> highvoltage, the xfce one is basically approved
<rodarvus> its my spec
<cjwatson> FWIW, the prioritisation is for discussion, not implementation
<highvoltage> rodarvus: ok, greay!
<ogra> cjwatson, ergh, right
<highvoltage> *great
<ogra> cjwatson, ok to add it now =?
<cjwatson> i.e. the high priority ones are the ones we think most need to be scheduled rather than the things that are most important to get done
<cjwatson> ogra: yes, but please mail mdz about it
<cjwatson> and about any priorities you think are wrong
<ogra> cjwatson, well, if its about discussion only i'm fine with the prios
<ogra> i didnt understand it like that 
<heno> cjwatson: and that will be re-adjusted after UDS?
<cjwatson> heno: possibly, not sure
<cjwatson> might make sense to do so
<cjwatson> for UDS though, the scheduler looks at priorities and tries to get the highest ones scheduled first
<heno> that's been the traditional interpretation
<tfheen> the priorities are discussion, not implementation priorities.  mdz said so during the confcall
<heno> makes sense
<cjwatson> ogra: thanks
<cjwatson> rodarvus: next
<ogra> rodarvus, please make sure to sort everything with the support team about the xfce stuff, we usually dont give support for it
<cjwatson> 1:10 in, good grief
<rodarvus> * Will be directly involved
<rodarvus> accelerated-x, simple-x-mode-selection, bullet-proof-x, beryl-by-default, fully-automatic-swap-server, edubuntu-xfce-desktop, edubuntu-on-two-cds, ltsp-community-building, edubuntu-install-profiles, xserver-failover, x-input-redirection
<rodarvus> * Particular interested on
<rodarvus> edubuntu-network-auth-server, edubuntu-network-auth-client, ltsp-fat-clients, student-control-panel-upgrade, ltsp-persistent-home, glx-memory-management, damage-and-composite-issues, network-authentication, hard-disk-migration-tool, ltsp-management-gui, graphic-effect-layers, edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound
<rodarvus> * Generically interested on (if time permits)
<rodarvus> binary-driver-education, feature-cycle, edgy-fontconfig, zeroconf-networking, xulrunner-gecko
<rodarvus> * Blocked (but super-hyper-important)
<rodarvus> Two new specs, which can only be added to LaunchPad after (pending) approval from sabdfl
<rodarvus> ogra, ok (notes taken about the subject)
<cjwatson> rodarvus: how very cryptic
<tfheen> rodarvus: you're going to have a busy week, I see? :-)
<rodarvus> cjwatson, yes, sorry :/
<rodarvus> tfheen, there's stuff thats not in this list, actually
<rodarvus> I'll be "chairing" three different groups
<cjwatson> rodarvus: ok, I hope you can manage to have read up on everything in advance, since you won't have much time to do so at the meeting
<rodarvus> so I'll likely just skip the specs which I'm not involved
<rodarvus> cjwatson, I did (and am doing it, actually :) )
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/launchpadassignedtome.user.js
<cjwatson> rodarvus: thanks
<cjwatson> Keybuk: next
<Keybuk> ^ for Greasemonkey users ... add "?limit=USERNAME"
<Keybuk> -- 
<Keybuk> Done:
<Keybuk>  * Got MoM up to speed on feisty, it's running now
<Keybuk>  * New MoM stats graphs
<Keybuk>  * Packaging new udev
<Keybuk>  * Starting my merges
<Keybuk> To do:
<Keybuk>  * Sync mania when tool chain in
<Keybuk> Specs:
<Keybuk>  * I'm apparently the noose-man for the telepathy stuff, even though dholbach is the star who'll do most of the work
<Keybuk>  * Going to keep an eye on the zeroconf/avahi related plans and make sure they come to fruition
<Keybuk>  * Various upstart and boot-related specs and plans for edgy
<cjwatson> I noticed the graphs - they're rather shiny
<seb128> Keybuk: any plan for network-manager? ;)
<Keybuk> seb128: continue ignoring it?
<Keybuk> demote it to universe
<Keybuk> BURN IT
<seb128> I see
<cjwatson> (bottom of merges.ubuntu.com/{main,restricted,universe,multiverse}.html
<cjwatson> )
<dholbach> I hope that giskard will start maintaining it.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: /upstart/s/edgy/feisty/
<Keybuk> oh, yes
<mvo> Keybuk: can we do wpa with anything else than network manager?
<Keybuk> the problem with n-m is that the people who want to maintain it, don't care about any other use case other than "Using network manager"
<cjwatson> I hope everyone has updated whatever aliases/mini-shell-scripts they have that hardcode edgy :-)
<Keybuk> and we can't have that as the default
<Keybuk> mvo: wpa supplicant ?
<pitti> seb128: https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/network-roaming
<seb128> pitti: thank you
<rodarvus> mvo, I think you just need to setup wpa_supplicant manually
<rodarvus> (a lot of manual work, granted)
<cjwatson> somebody who cares should teach netcfg about that
<Keybuk> rodarvus: not really, just a few config options added to /etc/network/interfaces
<mvo> aha, I wasn't aware of this, thanks
<Keybuk> cjwatson: already did
<Keybuk> but it didn't work :(
<Keybuk> WPA is ... hard
<cjwatson> would need a wpasupplicant-udeb ...
<cjwatson> anyway, later
<cjwatson> Keybuk: thanks
<cjwatson> seb128: next
<seb128> Done:
<seb128> - bunch of desktop fixes uploaded to edgy-proposed
<seb128> - "Reduce delta with upstream" week for desktop
<seb128> - bug triage, bug triage, bug triage, bug triage
<seb128> - mails catching up
<seb128> - specs for MTV summit
<seb128> .
<seb128> MTV:
<seb128> assigne:
<seb128> - tab-consistency: Mark wants everything use the old firefox 1.5 tabs style
<seb128> - desktop-slab: integration of new GNOME menu applet, GNOME is likely to accept it for 2.18. Not sure if we should consider it for default desktop (maybe giving a choices of panel profiles to the user)
<seb128> drafter:
<seb128> - easy-codec-installation: applications should make easy for the user to install the package shipping the codec he needs to play the file he's trying to play
<seb128> approver:
<seb128> - feisty-login: gdm eyes candy
<seb128> interest to:
<seb128> - beryl-by-default: compiz or beryl on the desktop
<seb128> - beagle-integration: beagle on the desktop?
<seb128> - crash-reporting: having a crash database instead of making user attach crash files manually to launchpad
<seb128> - tracker-integration: tracker packaging and maybe on the desktop?
<seb128> - feisty-telepathy: new cool technology
<seb128> - gnome-mount: new cool GNOME technology to define mounting policy, etc
<cjwatson> kwwii has to leave
<kwwii> bye all
<ogra> ciao kwwii, see you here in SF ;)
<kwwii> ogra: see you soon :-)
<pitti> seb128: really, ffox 1.5 style? not 2.0? i. e. one global close button?
<seb128> pitti: right
<ogra> cool !
<pitti> ouch, that means to change all our programs...
* ogra hated that "feature"
<seb128> that would mean changing the world, and I think we have better to do
<cjwatson> tab-consistency drove me out of the room last time; I hope to avoid it this time too
<seb128> pitti: right, help me to convince Mark then :p
<pitti> anyway -> MTV
<dholbach> pitti: and add a hack to gtknotebook
<cjwatson> seb128: thanks
<cjwatson> tfheen: next
<tfheen> not doing done/todo.
<tfheen> feisty-release-schedule: obvious
<tfheen> archive-training: I get to be an archive admin (so I can be an RM this time too, but without having to have Colin and Adam shove things for me)
<tfheen> grub2: hopefully we'll get it supported but not default. Default for fawn+1
<tfheen> code-review: a bit unsure about this one really is about.
<tfheen> those are my assigned specs, in addition I'm approver for a bunch.
<dholbach> tfheen: i'm happy to chat with you about code-review
<dholbach> i subscribed myself to it
<tfheen> dholbach: ok, can we do that in #u-d after the meeting?
<cjwatson> tfheen: mind if we potentially piggyback some other archive admin improvement discussions onto your archive-training? I can't imagine training will take longer than 20 minutes or so, and you might as well stick your oar in on the rest
<dholbach> tfheen: as you like it
<tfheen> cjwatson: sure, that's fine with me.
<Keybuk> tfheen: http://wiki,ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration
<Keybuk> s/,/./
<cjwatson> tfheen: have fun being the only approver who'll get time to actually sit in on his approvees? :)
<cjwatson> tfheen: thanks
<cjwatson> BenC is still not here ...
<cjwatson> keescook: ?
<tfheen> cjwatson: lucky me. :-)
<keescook> Done:
<keescook>  * security updates: libksba, xinit, binutils, pike7.6, clamav, screen, libpam-ldap, ruby1.8, mutt, wv
<keescook>  * security reviews: newz2000's moin form parser, libx11, qt, nvidia, apport, flashplugin-nonfree, thttpd
<keescook>  * finished most remaining universe rebuilds for linking to openssl0.9.8
<keescook>  * RC/final release CD and DVD testing: mostly PPC
<keescook>  * bug fixing: 39275, 65831, 65948, 65616, 65855, 65763, 66690, 65616, 66976, 34723
<keescook>  * SRU: vino (bug 65795)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65795 in vino "vino won't accept my password" [High,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65795
<keescook>  * investigating crash reports: mono, firefox
<keescook>  * got feisty chroot built, investigated MoM, did merge work on inkscape.
<keescook> To do:
<keescook>  * security updates: l-r-m (nvidia)
<keescook>  * SRU: mutt (bug 65821)
<keescook> UDS:
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65821 in mutt "edgy beta - mutt sasl authentication broken" [Undecided,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65821
<keescook>  * Assignee: memory-protection: What can we do to the toolchain and kernel to get even more memory protections to foil vulnerability exploits?  I'm digging through all the pieces for this currently.
<keescook>  * Interested in: security, crash reports, networking, multimedia. (A big list I won't paste here unless that's wanted.)
<cjwatson> keescook: do feel free to badger other distro team members about what's going on at UDS, since it's your first time
<keescook> Oh, I will be.  I'm going to follow pitti around.  :)
<Keybuk> who's performing the hazing?
* keescook hides
<doko> pitti: don't forget the leash ;)
<cjwatson> keescook: thanks
<cjwatson> doko: ready?
<doko> this week:
<doko>  - finalize OOo and eclipse proposals for edgy-updates
<doko>  - toolchain preparations for feisty, long double ABI change
<doko>  - bug triage
<doko>  - specs, pretty all of them still need work before UDS
<doko> specs for feisty:
<doko>  - feisty-toolchain-roadmap (just the remainings which need to be done)
<doko>  - feistyplusone-toolchain-roadmap (BoF)
<doko>  - feisty-python-roadmap (2.5 as default, egg support, remove code from /var, sane installation locations)
<doko>  - conflicts-replaces-checker (discussion, maybe not for feisty; checking replaces/conflicts fields after upload)
<doko>  - feisty-java-roadmap (gcj (and open-sourced? sun-java)
<doko>  - feisty-openoffice.org (discussion, what to do, and what not)
<doko>  - rosetta-ooo-rollout (discussion/test with carlos, danilos)
<doko>  - revisiting ssp as the default (with pitti)
<cjwatson> doko: many of those specs don't seem to be on the list
<cjwatson> doko: can you make sure you've proposed any that need discussion, and mail mdz?
<doko> cjwatson: yes, still in proposed, sorry
<mvo> doko: can you subscribe me for  conflicts-replaces-checker?
<pitti> doko: when keescook and I finished memory-protection, it'll become even scarier :-P
<doko> cjwatson: sending mdz email after the meeting
<doko> mvo: ok
<cjwatson> doko: thanks, good work on the toolchain so far
<cjwatson> ... though I suppose I should hold off on that until we all start trying to use it :-)
<doko> hah :)
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: do you have a handle on your specs for UDS?
<doko> pitti: did you come up with a better way to build packages with ssp enabled?
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: if not, let me know and we'll try to sort things out
<pitti> doko: no, just more flags
<keescook> and patches to gdb.  :)
<cjwatson> ok, have i missed anyone?
<cjwatson> s/i/I/
<zul> me but im only working on two specs
<ogra> does mdz have specs ? 
<zul> xen-by-default and xenubuntu
<cjwatson> zul: oh yes. Those are ones you're putting forward yourself, aren't they?
<cjwatson> so you're probably up to speed on them :-)
<zul> yes
<tkamppeter> I am here. I will put my part now/
<zul> and im also interested in a whole bunch of specs
<cjwatson> zul: ok, mail me/mdz if you have problems
<tkamppeter> Report Oct 13 - Nov  2, 2006
<tkamppeter> DONE:
<tkamppeter> - FSG OpenPrinting Summit in Lexington, KY:
<tkamppeter>   http://www.freestandards.org/en/OpenPrinting/SummitLexington
<tkamppeter>    o LSB-3.2-related outcomes:
<tkamppeter>      http://www.freestandards.org/images/6/67/Lsb-printing-roadmap.pdf
<iwj> conflicts-replaces-checker> I should subscribe to that.
<tkamppeter>      The functionality mentioned here must be part of feisty to assure
<tkamppeter>      that distribution-independent driver packages auto-downloaded
<tkamppeter>      from the internet will work.
<tkamppeter>    o Parallel session on common printing and printer setup dialogs:
<tkamppeter>      http://wiki.openusability.org/printing/
<tkamppeter>    o Jim Zemlin's (CEO FSG) presentation:
<tkamppeter>      http://www.freestandards.org/images/5/56/Open_Printing_-_Think_Big.pdf
<tkamppeter>      Nice summary of the problems and what has to be done
<iwj> Oh, I'm subscribed arleady :-).
<tkamppeter> - Upstream discussion with HP developer Donald Welch about HPLIP's fax not 
<tkamppeter>   working on Ubuntu (bug 66830): Ubuntu (and current Debian) use PyQt 3.16,
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 66830 in python-qt3 "Problem with Socket Inter-Process Communication" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66830
<tkamppeter>   Mandriva 2OO7 uses PyQt 3.14. On 3.16 there is an inter-process
<tkamppeter>   communication bug which did not exist in 3.14. Donald Welch is working
<tkamppeter>   on a solution.
<Ubugtu> Mandriva bug 2 in program "Warning messages appeared while loading xemacs" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]  http://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2
<tkamppeter> - Answered to bug reports
<tkamppeter> TODO:
<tkamppeter> - Features/sessions planned for the Ubuntu Developer Summit (*: Submitted 
<tkamppeter>   by myself):
<tkamppeter>   o Automatic hotplug printer configuration
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/automatic-printer-conf
<tkamppeter>     (Accepted session)
<tkamppeter>   o *Replace gnome-cups-manager by printerdrake
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/printerdrake
<tkamppeter>     (Accepted session)
<tkamppeter>   o PPD File Structure Specification
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ppd-file-structure
<tkamppeter>     (Not (yet) accepted session)
<tkamppeter>   o Standardization of the impression
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/applications-printing
<tkamppeter>     (Not (yet) accepted session)
<tkamppeter>   o Make PDF "Printer" functionality for CUPS as default
<cjwatson> whoa, verbose
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/pdf-printing-cups-as-default
<tkamppeter>     (Accepted session)
<tkamppeter>   o Easy configuration of printer sharing
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/printer-sharing
<tkamppeter>     (Accepted session)
<tkamppeter>   o *Automatic download of printer drivers through the internet
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/printerdriverautodownload
<tkamppeter>     (Accepted session)
<tkamppeter>   o *The results of the FSG OpenPrinting Summit in Lexington and the next Ubuntu
<tkamppeter>     https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/printing-summit-lexington-and-ubuntu
<tkamppeter>     (Accepted session)
<tkamppeter> - Proposed official updates for Ubuntu Edgy
<tkamppeter>   o HPLIP faxing functionality (bug 66830): Waiting for a fix from HPLIP
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 66830 in python-qt3 "Problem with Socket Inter-Process Communication" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66830
<tkamppeter>     or PyQt developers
<tkamppeter>   o foo2zjs firmware auto-loading for HP LaserJet 1000/1005/1018/1020
<tkamppeter>     (bug 65618, bug 68736): Fixed package already made, only needs to be
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65618 in foo2zjs "Firmware upload to LJ 1000/1005/1008/1020 broken (fix to be proposed as Edgy update)" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65618
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 68736 in foo2zjs "foo2zjs does not work with hp laserjet 1018" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68736
<tkamppeter>     submitted.
<tkamppeter>   o Parallel printer detection seems not to work correctly in Edgy
<tkamppeter>     (bug 29050 + duplicates): Needs to be fixed by kernel team and fixed
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 29050 in linux-source-2.6.17 "cupsys does not automatically detect parallel printer" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/29050
<tkamppeter>     kernel provided as update.
* tfheen gives tkamppeter the award for longest status report ewah.
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: please try to keep reports a bit shorter in future - I think that's more than anyone can read in a relatively time-limited meeting
<iwj> printerdriverautodownload - is it just me or is that scary from a security pov ?
<ogra> Ubugtu noise is also quite annoying, probably Seveas could disable it for -meeting
<pitti> iwj: depends on how we restrict and authenticate the sources, I guess, but I agree
<tkamppeter> Sorry, I have added a link to everything and also many bug numbers which made Ubugtu making it twice as long.
<cjwatson> Ubugtu added five lines versus your 56. :-)
<cjwatson> iwj: would you mind sitting in on that discussion?
<tkamppeter> In terms of auto download of printer drivers: We are a desktop distro and shouls make live as easy as possible.
<tkamppeter> We will ask the user before auto-downloading anything.
<ogra> what about dialup users and non-connected ones ?
<pitti> (but with keeping a healthy balance in terms of trusting drivers, etc.)
<ogra> they wont be able to use printers ? 
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: let's not get into the trap of a usability vs. security argument
<pitti> ogra: I don't think we should drop all drivers from the CD
<ogra> right
<tkamppeter> Auto-downloading is done from freestandards.org, not from each driver authors own site
<pitti> let's discuss it on the UDS
<iwj> cjwatson: Sure, I've subscribed myself.
<tkamppeter> The most important drivers will continue to be available on the CD.
<cjwatson> iwj: thanks
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: ok, thank you
<cjwatson> I think we're all done now; as mentioned, if there's any last-minute stuff, e-mail mdz or me to make sure it gets looked at on Sunday
<zul> later..
<cjwatson> I've been voluntold to help set up on Sunday, which I think will cover some last-minute stuff
<iwj> Phew.
* pitti starves
<cjwatson> thanks, everyone; adjourned
<cjwatson> COFFEE
<ogra> ++
<pitti> DINNER!
<keescook> breakfast!
<pitti> thanks to you all, and see you in S.F.!
<sladen> tkamppeter: if the linuxprinting.org-ppds / foomatic-filters-ppds packages weren't full of 500 identically individually gzip'ed files, the compressed size would be able 1/10th of the current 25MB since nearly all the files are virtually identically.
* ogra goes for breakfast as well now
* keescook waves
<iwj> Packing!
<mvo> Football!
<tfheen> unsharpening cat claws!
<pitti> tfheen: *ruffle*
<dholbach> thanks
<ogra> tfheen, ouch ...
<ogra> doesnt that get quite bloody for you ? 
<ogra> (my cats dont like it at all)
<tkamppeter> sladen, I will look into this and change the packaging appropriately. Best is to report a Launchpad bug about this.
<tfheen> ogra: no, they're quite happy about it.
<ogra> lucky you
<tkamppeter> sladen, foomatic-filter-ppds is not there in Edgy any more, as we have dynamich PPD building of CUPS 1.2.
<Keybuk> cjwatson: don't you mean setup on saturday?
<tkamppeter> sladen, and the package of individually gzipped files is probably originating from Debian. Perhaps we should report this to the Debian packager.
<Keybuk> the first day of MTV is Sunday
<cjwatson> Keybuk: er, yeah
<cjwatson> I arrive at 13:15
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: gunzipping all the ppds makes foomatic-filters-ppd.deb about 3MB smaller, but it also makes it consume about 56MB more disk space when installed
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: so it seems like a pretty reasonable tradeoff on the part of the Debian maintaine
<cjwatson> r
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: I think to get the best of both worlds you'd have to extract the PPDs from a .tar.gz on the fly or something, which probably wouldn't be very fast
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<tkamppeter> cjwatson, The best is perhaps to gzip the PPD files in the post-install script, but then one would need the full disk space temporarily, as package install is always pre-install-script->copy-all-files->post-install-script, the file copying cannot be intercepted.
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: postinst scripts must not modify /usr, though
<cjwatson> so that gets difficult
<cjwatson> also postinst scripts really shouldn't delete files shipped by the package
<cjwatson> (I think the latter's actually a stronger consideration, since it does break some things)
<cjwatson> e.g. debsums
<tkamppeter> cjwatson, Then perhaps the Debian packaging system needs to be changed, so that when a .gz or a .bz2 file is included that it gets uncompressed on the fly when the package is built and recompressed when the package is installed. Then the packager does not need to care about including compressed files.
<cjwatson> that's not going to happen in the remotely near future, and would not be generally appropriate
<Seveas> ogra, sure, but people have more than once requested for it to be enabled in here
<Seveas> can't have it both ways...
<ogra> Seveas, which people ? 
<ogra> distro team people ? 
<Seveas> I forgot the nicknames, but I'm rather sure that there were at least one or two of them asking for it
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-03
* Mez -> bed
<w00> *
<mruiz> *
<zarul> How if I can't attend the next meeting for membership approval?
<tonyyarusso> zarul: You should only put yourself on the agenda for a meeting you can attend.  If the next one doesn't work for you, wait for the one after that.  Hopefully there is one not to long from now at a time that works for your timezone and schedule.
<zarul> but, I am having problem with  the timezone
<zarul> as the time of the meeting normally is the time I won't be able  to be here
<tonyyarusso> I think they (theoretically anyway) try to rotate the meetings through different times of day
<zarul> oh, thanks tonyyarusso, I  will do my best to attend the meeting
<profoX`> does anyone know when the next ubuntu council meeting is? there is no date set on the fridge and the wiki page is outdated (was outdated)
<Burgwork> profoX`: post MTV, I would imagine
<profoX`> Burgwork: excuse me, MTV? MounTain View?
<Burgwork> yep
<profoX`> oh okay.. I guess I'll just keep up to date for changes on the wiki/fridge then :)
<profoX`> thanks Burgwork 
<Burgwork> no worries
<profoX`> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-04
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 08 Nov 15:00: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 15:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 11:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu
* Mez -> food
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-05
<looksaus> Seveas, weet jij iets meer over schedule?
<looksaus> oops, sorry, should have asked in English...
<looksaus> any news about schedule for tomorrow?
<jsgotangco> heh
<Seveas> looksaus, that's not in here
<Seveas> /join #udsmtv
<looksaus> ok...
<lfittl>  /win 13
<lfittl> arghs
<siretart> @schedule europe/berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 08 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<siretart> @schedule mountainview/ca
* Mez -> food
<JoeyStanford> is there a channel for those of us here at the UDS?
<stgraber> #udsmtv
<JoeyStanford> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-29
<kraut> moin
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-30
<Keybuk> cjwatson: so...
<WaVeR> Morning
<Mamarok> @ time Boston
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<cjwatson> Keybuk: hmm?
<Hobbsee> did anyone tell the fridge guys that it's not on this time?
<Burgundavia> no, they did not
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-31
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<flint_>  type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY flint
<flint_> @schedule new york
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<skimat> is art meeting still on and those it cover graphical user interface of desktop-windows tabs and so on ?
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-01
<kraut> moin
<fluo> hello
<fluo> !
<cris> hi, everybody
<fluo> hi! there's a meeting for ubuntu artwork today right?
<melaren> fluo, hehe, I think so, that's why I'm here.
<fluo> good
<nothlit> i don't know if its in here or the art channel
<fluo> it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
<nothlit> i maintain that page lol, theres no channel specified in the email
<fluo> As decided in the last meeting the next meeting will occur around November 1st at 15:00 UTC in freenode channel #ubuntu-meeting. Check here later for more exact details.
<nothlit> i maintain that page, i just fixed the time/date and convertor link, left the channel
<nothlit> its not in fridge so..
<fluo> yes it is
<fluo> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1138
<fluo> shit i didn't see the source
<fluo> I'm going to shut up now... :/
<melare2> Isn't the meeting supposed to start now?
<thorwil> yes. but the man isn't here, yet ;)
<melare2> thorwil: ok, cool, just checking :)
<thorwil> melare2, just learned it happens 1 hour later
<terr1en> salut fluo  !
<sam7> hello, i hope i'm on the good meeting for ubuntu hardy heron
<fluo> yop terr1en
<terr1en> fluo: on parle de quoi ici ?
<fluo> plop Zic[Laptop]  / Zic
<ubuntu> ping
<clemen1> ping
<woodwizzle> pong
<clemen1> ping
<Mithrandir> clemen1: this is not a test channel, please stop treating it as such
<terr1en> Mithrandir: yes sir ! Yo fluo how are you men ? Wazaaa !!!
<fluo> :)
<terr1en> mark are you here ?
<melare1> so...
<fluo> is somebody actually sure there's a meeting?
<thorwil> fluo, yes, there will be one at 17:00 utc
<fluo> in 30min then right?
<kwwii> fluo: yes, in 30 min
<fluo> ok
<terr1en> mark ?
<terr1en> mark je t'aime !
<kwwii> hi all
<woodwizzle> Howdy
<thorwil> hola
<kwwii> sorry for the time mess up
<kwwii> hi andreasn
<andreasn> hi kwwii!
<kwwii> who all is here for the meeting so far?
<melare1> I
<woodwizzle> I too
<thorwil> !
<fluo> me too
<melare1> kwii: I have to leave in 15-20 minutese
<djzhan> MENU -p5 ADD FServe
<kwwii> ok, let's go then
<kwwii> we had a meeting at UDS today
<kwwii> and talked about the form of the art team and how we lead the process
<kwwii> let me find a wikipage
<kwwii> in the meantime let's start with the first point
<kwwii> Moving forward with the gallery art.ubuntu.com plans
<kwwii> we have three options
<kwwii> make a new art.ubuntu.com, user an existing platform like ubuntu-art.org or don't do one and leave that part to the forum
<kwwii> and ideas on that?
<nothlit> well doing the digg-like sort of thing with a portal and feedback with wip "threads" would be interesting of matthew could really do that
<Misosaki> Can you please clarify the 3rd option?
<woodwizzle> I've never been a big fan of ubuntu-art.org and gnome-look, kde-look type layouts.
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtTeam here are notes from the meeting, btw
<nothlit> in terms of official stuff i don't see a point as the wiki seems like an ok way to do it given work, for random submissions just point people to ubuntu-art.com
<andreasn> woodwizzle: what do you think are the drawbacks?
<kwwii> Misosaki: we could just use the forum as some form of gallery
<thorwil> might be good if he art section of the forum could be focused on the tools, how to do stuff type questions
<lassegul> The idea with the digg thing could trigger an idea of the number one "dugg" will be default wallpaper. This could pose problems if kwwii picks the number three dugg.
<kwwii> thorwil: that is how I see the aim of the forum, but I thought I should bring it up as it is a valid option
<melare1> It would be nice to use the forum to attract attention, but it would be nice for it to link everyone to the art page
<nothlit> lassegul: hemhem see bullet point 3 in the meeting notes =p
<Misosaki> kwwii: Thanks. Ah. Organisation wouldn't be an issue? Things might get buried, hard to "mix/match", etc.
<kwwii> melare1: It is linked, iirc
<nothlit> i don't like the forums, the barrier of entry is actually <too low>
<fluo> i'd rather see it out of the forum, it's a bit too messy in there to have a clear view of the artworks
<kwwii> Misosaki: another worry of mine with using the forum, it was get easily lost
<woodwizzle> andreasn: the way they're organized and the way searching works etc. It always seems to take me a bit longer than I expect to find what i'm lookin' for
<nothlit> people need incentive to join wiki, mailing list etc
<kwwii> officialy, the wiki and the mailing list are the ways the final art selections will be done
<nothlit> and that brings people more likely to be constructive, forums naturally bring a lot of complainers because its only for yakking in the first place
<kwwii> but if the forum can attract new artists we should not ignore their contributions
<andreasn> nothlit: I think we can tell people in the forums what our process for doing stuff is, if they are not comfortable with that, then, sorry
<kwwii> in any case, I know that putting some prearranged info up on a wiki page is not hard for everyone so there are quite a few people who could help - just send an email to the list
<andreasn> so, we could have a sticky thread in the forums where we tell people how stuff works, the process etc.
<woodwizzle> that sounds good
<thorwil> sticky thread++
<andreasn> that way we would avoid much of the confusion that is currently there
<lassegul> +1
<kwwii> erm, we forgot to start the bot
<kwwii> can several people get a log of this meeting?
<nothlit> andreasn: a shift into forums means a shift into more pandemonium, places meant to get things done bring a proportionate amount of people who come to do so
<thorwil> kwwii, i'm logging
<kwwii> thorwil: excellent
<andreasn> well, I don't think we would push the actual communication, more communicating between the wiki/mailing-list and the forum better
<kwwii> another idea that we had was to make a flickr group
<nothlit> unless we have some sort of launchpad team integrated private forums
<Misosaki> Heard there were downsides to art.ubuntu.com, but if the subdomain were maintained so it looks more like an integral part of the whole Ubuntu thing instead of some separate site off somewhere else ... not sure what is wrong with a cms where all the documentation would be as well as the gallery
<nothlit> kwwii: a photostream of progress would be a good idea even in general
<kwwii> Misosaki: we could use the ubuntu template
<Misosaki> So wiki + gallery under the same domain if possible, but tightly integrated if not
<kwwii> nothlit: right
<lassegul> the forum sticky is a good idea as long as it also tries to redirect people to the wiki, and we have some poeple who gather artwork from there and put it on the wiki.
<nothlit> have there been people posting hardy-specific things to the forum and neglecting the wiki?
<lassegul> Not yet I think
<thorwil> nothlit, kinda
<Misosaki> kwwii: Can the template be tweaked enough to suit the art needs, to maintain consistency with the rest of the Ubuntu programme?
<kwwii> I think that if we decide to do art.ubuntu.com we find the people to actually set it up and keep it running
<thorwil> nothlit, there are some hacks in the hardy is a new bird or what the thread was called
<sam7> It was a goo idea to create art.ubuntu.com
<lassegul> oh yeah i forgot about that one.
<kwwii> Misosaki: I think we could tweak some things without too much work
<kwwii> I have the template with everything in layers, etc.
<Misosaki> kwwii: Okay ... if we can work with what there is already, it'll save some energy that could be put into the content
<sam7> i hope the francophone forums are listening by the english forums (sorry,i didn't speeck english werry well)
<kwwii> ok, I will make a proposal for that option and send an email to the list so that we can see who steps up to work on it
<Misosaki> The key things, imvho, is that the documentation is there, that it is clear to potential artists and the rest of the community, and that the community will know where to go to see everything or say their peace of mind
<melare2> can I just put a few ideas out there, I have to get to class.
<kwwii> melare1: please do
<melare2> We could work with the marketing team to test artwork ideas on focus groups.Â  Results from the focus groups could be factored into the final decision and weighted a little heavier than the website vote.Â  This would help us reach our actual target market, instead of relying only on forum/Digg members.Â  ...and it wouldn't be that hard if this was done at a university, of course it depends whether this would be part of our targ
<melare2> What if we had the voting window last one month for each batch of uploaded artwork.Â  Then we would have a regular sampling of what people like, and the artists would have feedback each month during the dev process.Â  Digg could be used to help attract attention.
<melare2> We should have a way to notify people who have uploaded images that don't jive with the guidelines. If their image doesn't fit the guidelines and if they want to be considered for inclusion, they should know that changes will have to be made.
<lassegul> melare2, i think you might be forgetting that our target audience isnt our exsisting users.
<andreasn> so regarding focus groups, I think that could be really hard to do
<Misosaki> That ... and having the art contents organised and presented so it is easy to see both details and the overall picture.
<nothlit> lol, we don't have any resources like that
<kwwii> melare2: I think it would be hard to find enough people to do a decent survey with the limited funds we would get to do it
<melare2> well would a college campus contain our target market
<sam7> i hope in ubuntu 8.04 LTS, there was the Elephant thÃ¨me, icones and GDM by default (brown for Ubuntu & blue for Kubuntu)
<Misosaki> Is that really our target market though, melare2?
<melare2> because most of the people surveyed there wouldn't be ubuntu members
<thorwil> is the target audience limited in any way?
<melare2> I think the problem is, we haven't defined our target marke
<Misosaki> lols
<woodwizzle> Isn't our target market, people with computers?
<melare2> I've heard talk about it, but it  has never been defined
<kwwii> melare2: if you are interested in this I would suggest talking to the usability and perhaps QA teams
<melare2> ok
<kwwii> melare2: can you send an email to the list with a suggestion?
<sam7> i see you dont speek a lot of thefutur LTS
<melare2> the art mailing list?  ...sorry I'm a little new to the process
<kwwii> in the end, the final decision rests in the hands of a few people but getting good info to make a good decision is a good idea :-)
<melare2> right
<melare2> I think it is really important to get more feedback to the art team
<andreasn> melare2: have you used a mailing list before?
<nothlit> melare2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GetInvolved
<sam7> i've got somes ideas, but in french... so, i can give them to you, if you want...
<melare2> the way it worked last time, was people saw the final and complained
<melare2> we need to get feedback all along the way
<andreasn> melare2: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<nothlit> melare2: feedback wouldn't have helped. they would have had no say
<sam7> and have a look on the french forum... there are lots of good suggestions
<kwwii> melare2: actually we seem to be at about 60% for the "like it" crowd
<kwwii> I agree that we could improve though
<kwwii> and the changes that we have planned might well surpise a lot of people
<melare2> nothlit: true, but simple suggestions like "it is too dark" could have been heard earlier
<melare2> thus, giving kwii more time
<nothlit> simple fixes are just a click away in gimp =p
<woodwizzle> Are we talkin' about the elephant wallpaper?
<melare2> default
<melare2> Ok, sorry to interrupt.  I just wanted to get a few things out ther
<nothlit> kwwii: whats the next topic?
<kwwii> melare2: I think that you might have a good idea but I guess more info would be needed
<melare2> I'll try to type up a more coherent proposal
<Misosaki> So what's the verdict on the gallery system before we move on?
<kwwii> melare2: great, thanks
<kwwii> Misosaki: I think that we should announce our intention to do it this way and ask for people to set it up and run it
<Misosaki> kwwii: Okay :)
<kwwii> Misosaki: with this option we have to get people to actually do it before we can start doing it :-)
<Misosaki> True lols
<andreasn> kwwii: I think it sounds good
<kwwii> next item
<kwwii> Defining concise design and palette ideas for Hardy
<kwwii> we've come close to finalizing this stuff
<kwwii> there should be much more info coming soon
<fluo> will the horrible brown and orange palette will stay?
<fluo> :-)
<woodwizzle> as fas as brown and orange goes, I could take it or leave it.
<kwwii> here is some stuff I started (which is already somewhat updated) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyDesign
<kwwii> s/updated/outdated
<woodwizzle> I think orange on black is a great idea. Do you mean to go with a dark theme like Ubuntu Studio?
<lassegul>  The idea is also to have a darker gtk theme
<andreasn> woodwizzle: if it works out, yes
<thorwil> dark themes clash with the many, many bright websites. that kind of large area contrast is hard on th eyes
<woodwizzle> That could be very cool. I've seen some very good lookin' dark GTK themes
<thorwil> or office documents
<kwwii> another part of Hardy will be the face browser, it might work very well
<andreasn> thorwil: yeah, that could be a drawback, could be fixable with fixing the colors on certain applications though
<nothlit> is this a 3d compositing only one or a real theme?
<kwwii> I'll make an annoucnement with newer info in a day or two
<andreasn> we did some tests with gedit that looked ok if the white was a bit darker tint
<lassegul> nothlit, facebrowser or dark gtk heme?
<kwwii> nothlit: it will be a composting thing with a fallback
<kwwii> so we will still use the normal gdm
<Mithrandir> mmm, brown, composted images.
<calc> i saw a bug thread on forums that since studio uses black/gray it is sometimes hard to tell what is greyed out as not an option versus gray by the theme
<Misosaki> Hate to ask ... but can we safely assume that all of those sample images are "officially sanctioned"?
<woodwizzle> calc, I think that is an error in the way that particular theme handles graying out items
<lassegul> calc, we'll have to consider all these things, but they can all be fixed to some extent.Ã¸
<kwwii> calc: it is a matter of getting the theme done right :-)
<andreasn> Misosaki: like from a copyright standpoint?
<woodwizzle> I would really like the default wallpaper to be something besides abstract swirls this time around.
<calc> kwwii: yea, just mentioning something not to forget about ;)
<Misosaki> Since they've been posted up as a kind of starting point?
<kwwii> Misosaki: we are getting really close to being able to say that, yet
<kwwii> yes
<nothlit> andreasn: like from a sabdfl "i like that for ubuntu" standpoint =p
<Misosaki> andreasn: No, from a visual standpoint of the client(s)
<woodwizzle> I think the alternate elephant background was a great new idea and on the right track
<andreasn> nothlit: ah, yes, he gave thumbs up on it
<kwwii> Misosaki: give us a day or two to get the newest stuff out
<Misosaki> Yeah, like nothlit says, to put it bluntly lols
<Misosaki> kwwii: Okay, thanks. Just checking.
<musashi> !ubotu schedule
<ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<kwwii> ok, last item
<kwwii> we are changing everything (and I mean everything) and we need all the help we can get
<kwwii> so....
<fluo> define everything
<lassegul> fluo, gtk icons, wallpaper, metacity gdm usplash
<woodwizzle> splash screens? Pidgin Smilies?
<lassegul> fluo, your underwear! :O
<andreasn> pidgin smilies are pretty good upstream though :)
<Misosaki> lol
<lassegul> :)
<calc> oh yea and OOo!
<fluo> :D
<kwwii> install screen, usplash, gdm/face broswer, Desktop Wallpaper, GTK theme, colors, metacity/emerald theme, icons, splash screens
<fluo> ok so I can keep my dirty underwears
<kwwii> we are going to be needing as much help with packaging and coding as we can get
<andreasn> and also with making sure the wiki is up to date
<calc> i can help on packaging as long as you beat^Wremind me about it
<kwwii> calc: cool, I'll hold you to your word ;-)
<nothlit> kwwii: do we have an actual concept besides the look? has sabdfl given us any keywords etc?
<Zic> I have a question about a piece of ubuntu artwork, the gnome splash was disabled in Gutsy, why ?
 * calc brb
<Zic> Hardy do the same ?
<Burgundavia> Zic: because it was supposed to just go away
<kwwii> nothlit: I still have to make up the keywords :-)
<Burgundavia> but upstream GNOME has not yet gotten around to that
<kwwii> Zic: because it took longer to load it than to display it
<kwwii> ok, it seems that we are through all the points
<nothlit> what we need is a schedule if we want people to be able to contribute the base idea, it will take a lot of time to build around it
<kwwii> anyone have any other business?
<Zic> ok, thanks for your answers
<woodwizzle> is kde4 gonna be out before hardy?
<calc> yes but not the default
<woodwizzle> if so we could maybe base the icons on the oxygen theme
<kwwii> woodwizzle: there will be extra CDs available with kde4
<Zic> KDE 4.0 is not considered by KDE developers as a real release
<Zic> so, not shiped in Hardy by default :)
<kwwii> 4.0 will be included in hardy+1
<woodwizzle> I'm not at all interested in KDE, just the oxygen theme ;)
<kwwii> hehe, thanks...good to hear you like it
<Zic> Tango or Oxygen ... that's the question I'm thinking about :)
<Zic> (for my Desktop)
<Zic> hehe
<andreasn> Zic: well, tango in gnome, oxygen in kde
<Zic> or the opposite
<Zic> I like both ... and I use GNOME ;)
<kwwii> ok, seems like we are finished here
<andreasn> yep
<kwwii> thorwil: can you send an email to the list and to myself with the log?
<Zic> kwwii: oh, last question : about sound theme, is it the ArtWorkTeam ?
<kwwii> Zic: we can work in that area as well, yes
<fluo> speaking of this, will PulseAudio be integrated in Hard?
<Zic> kwwii: any plan to change sound theme for Hardy too ?
<fluo> hardy*
<kwwii> Zic: until now I had honestly put little thought into it but it might very well be a good idea as the old sounds might not be perfect with the new colors
<kwwii> ok, thanks for coming everyone - discussion to the mailing list
<andreasn> new sounds sounds cool
<andreasn> thank you kwwii
<Misosaki> Thanks kwwii
<Zic> where is the mailing list of the artworkteam ?
<soren> Zic: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<soren> Zic: https://lists.ubuntu.com/ is your friend.
<Zic> soren: I know lists.ubuntu.com, but I do not find this ml, thanks
<thorwil> kwwii, will do (was away)
<quidpro> was there an artwork team meeting earlier today?
<somerville32> quidpro, I think so yes
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-02
<civilwest> anyone in here?
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-03
<kraut> moin
<wraund> not sure if this is entirely right place to ask, but im having a name change fest, and was wondering where i go to change sacater@ubuntu.com to wraund@ubuntu.com
<PriceChild> wraund, I guess emailing rt would be a good start
<wraund> ...
<wraund> pretty short nick :P
<wraund> rt@ubuntu.com?
<PriceChild> this is a publically logged channel so best to obscure emails
<PriceChild> That's just a guess... don't quote me on it.
<PriceChild> Most things seem to go through there though.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-27
<pavelk1> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-28
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 28 Oct 12:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 28 Oct 20:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 18:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 23:00: Platform Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Asia Oceania Membership Board Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team
<elkbuntu> ahoi
<TheMuso> Greetings.
<persia> Good evening.
<amachu> Good evening
<TheMuso> No applicants on the agenda...
<amachu> yep..
<elkbuntu> i feel bad for being happy about that :Ã
<elkbuntu> especially since release time is coming up, and there's plenty of people doing awesome work
<amachu> and zakame, belutz not turning up for quite some time!
<persia> Did you ever hear back from them regarding the possible time change?
<elkbuntu> i havent seen a peep on the list
<elkbuntu> they probably filter the list mail off, and are more likely to look at actual inbox
<amachu> persia: No
<amachu> lifeless: there?
<persia> Hrm.  I think the rest of us said positive things about it (although it's of especial interest to all of you because of the time).
<lifeless> hi
<amachu> lifeless: Hey! glad...
<amachu> we are five today, and no one turning up...
<lifeless> easy meeting then
<lifeless> week after next I can't be here
<amachu> good.. I will take it up with the community council next time for sure on two aspects..
<amachu> 1) Adding two more members to the Board
<amachu> 2) Requesting them to consider two-three months of contribution is enough for considering memberships
<amachu> and the time factor, We need to decide among ourselves, May be we will wait till new members arrive before deciding on that, assuming CC approves it
<amachu> lifeless: Ok
<amachu> is that fine with every one?
<persia> amachu, So we're asking for replacements for zakame/belutz?  Doesn't make sense to make the team larger unless we propose the time change.
<lifeless> I don't know about 2)
<lifeless> 1) makes sense if we're going to vary the times more
<lifeless> its 10pm here now, any .nz folk its midnight for
<amachu> persia: no, not replacements for them, we were discussing about having nine on board three from each zone
<persia> amachu, That only makes sense if we do the time split.
<amachu> We need to time split, but I am only considering who the new members would and what would be their opinions..
<persia> huh?
<persia> Other boards are seven.  Why do we need nine?
<persia> Answer: Because we want to split the time.
<amachu> persia: yes..
<persia> So, the time split and the request for two additional members (7-9) are the *same* request.
<persia> Asking for going from 5 active to 7 active is a different question.
<amachu> yes..
<amachu> time split to be decided among ourselves, and approval from CC for two more members
<amachu> I will put forth we have decided to split time and hence we need two more on board..
<elkbuntu> i'd recommend making real contact with the guys before dethroning them.
<TheMuso> I agree.
<amachu> elkbuntu: thats true
<persia> I agree that real contact is important.
<lifeless> amachu: I think persia's point is that when we split the time we become de facto a split subboard
<lifeless> so its not so much adding members as reforming into smaller boards
<persia> I also think we need CC approval for the time split, rather than just agreeing between ourselves.
<persia> lifeless, Well, kinda.  I'm expecting three members to sit on both (UTC +8,+9), and three members from ~10-+12, and three members from +5:30 - +7) to bring us to quota each week.
<elkbuntu> agreed. i think we need to put ourselves on the agenda for the next 3rd week/CC clash.
<persia> I have no objections to a full split, but that's different.
<amachu> persia: CCs approval for time split?
<persia> amachu, I'd think so : it's a big change from how we were asked to organise.
<amachu> definitely We will be putting forth that to the CC and that as the reason for new Board members..
<persia> OK.  We still need to track down our lost sheep though.  I'm especially surprised by Belutz who was so active at the start.
<TheMuso> It would be nice if they could state whether they intend to continue helping with the board.
<TheMuso> s/could/would/
<amachu> we need, may be I will mail them personally this time
<persia> That sounds like a good plan.
<persia> If that doesn't work, perhaps we can try to catch them on IRC individually (if anyone has a good script to track people).
<TheMuso> Send them memos?
<TheMuso> Or whatever they are called?
<TheMuso> That is if they have registered with freenode.,
<persia> I was thinking personal conversations, as that's more reliable.
<TheMuso> True.
<amachu> I will mail them to take their opinions
<persia> I think there is a tool that can track when people join, and open chat, but I'm not familiar enough with IRC.
<elkbuntu> persia, or we could just steal someone's private jet and hunt them in person
<persia> I also think mail is the better first step, and IRC stalking should only be done if mail fails.
<persia> elkbuntu, That's lower on the list.  I was thinking telephone before personal vist.
<persia> ML post, personal email, IRC, telephone call, physcial visit : in rough order of decreasing invasiveness.
<lifeless> nothing personal about smart bombs
<elkbuntu> i figured the plane would bump it up in priority
<persia> lifeless, You've clearly not investigated the options available from miniaturisation : smaller planes, smaller bombs, more personal.
<amachu> :)
<amachu> so is that all for the week?
 * persia has no additional agenda items
 * TheMuso has no agenda items.
<amachu> lifeless & elkbuntu ?
<lifeless> I have no agenda
<elkbuntu> i think so
<amachu> Thank you all..
<TheMuso> Thanks.
<amachu> We will have our next meeting on 04 Nov 08, Will keep the mailing list updated on other happenings
<persia> See you all then.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<LjL> boredandblogging: hi
<boredandblogging> LjL: hi
<LjL> boredandblogging: can you explain to me what the current status of the events calendar is in more detail? namely, what are the places one can get a feed
<boredandblogging> LjL: there are two feeds being maintained at the moment
<boredandblogging> the fridge feed and google calendar feed
<boredandblogging> we would like the bot to read the google feed
<boredandblogging> the issue is that the bot doesn't properly deal with repeating events in the calendar
<boredandblogging> so if a meeting is booked for every Tuesday at 9am
<boredandblogging> it will only show the first Tuesday
<boredandblogging> and none of the others
<LjL> boredandblogging: you mean in the topic, or in @schedule, or everywhere...?
<LjL> boredandblogging: and what's the URL to the google calendar anyway?
<boredandblogging> LjL: yeah, everywhere
<boredandblogging> LjL: http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/j5q85mmi6ujvjtii5s1n3li5io%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
<LjL> boredandblogging: so wait, ubottu right now is reading the Fridge iCal feed (not the Google feed, although it's also in iCal format), right? *but* even if it were reading the Google feed, repeating events wouldn't be handled properly, is that right too?
<persia> LjL, That's a correct summary.
<LjL> persia, boredandblogging: sorry that i'm just catching up, but... while the normal ubottu code simply can't parse the Google Calendar file at all (it bails out with an error), it was pretty trivial to fix that. now i don't know if it's outputting the right stuff, but it's not failing at least - was that already done before?
<persia> LjL, There's a patch floating about for that.  The problem is the function to determine the next N meetings, or compare the current time to see if it is a meeting.
<persia> The current code can tell that something is recurring, but since Google only sends it once, and expects the client to be able to determine the recurrance, it doesn't know when it will happen again.
<LjL> persia: wait, you're saying that after a while, the recurring event simply won't be in the ical feed anymore, and the client is expected to have it cached from before?
<persia> LjL: No, I'm saying that the iCal feed has the date of the first occurance and the rules to determine follow-up occurances, rather than one entry per occurance.
<LjL> persia: ah ok, that's not *so* bad then
<persia> The current code can't handle the calculations to determine when the event recurs.
<persia> No, it's just the need for a recurrance processing module to be written.  Should be a few days work for someone with enough python knowledge.
<LjL> persia: from the samples i see in the current calendary, the "BYDAY" rule looks like the most irritating to implement
<LjL> and as far as i can see, it's currently parsed by totally ignored
<persia> LjL, Yeah, that's about the state of things.  Just needs someone to dig into it.
<LjL> persia: do you know what BYDAY=-1SU means? last sunday of the month?
<persia> I have no idea, but that seems a reasonable guess.
 * mathiaz waves
<nijaba> o/
<zul> hello
<sommer> yo
<mathiaz> how is everyone doing?
<zul> cold
 * mathiaz hands a pile of mentos to zul 
<zul> wohoo.....
<mathiaz> all right - let's get this started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> last week's minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20081021
<mathiaz> I don't see any outstanding actions from last weeks meeting.
<nealmcb> o/
<mathiaz> someone wants to add something wrt to the topics from last week meeting?
<mathiaz> seems like not. let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Final blockers.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Final blockers.
<mathiaz> So we're testing the -server iso candidates for Final.
<mathiaz> Anyone came accross a bug that should be noted in the release notes?
<nijaba> mathiaz: not sure what's the status on iscsi
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] iscsi in intrepid
<MootBot> New Topic:  iscsi in intrepid
<mathiaz> so we've decided to not update iscsi for release
<mathiaz> intrepid will ship with an iscsi that doesn't support more than one iscsi target
<mathiaz> everything is tracked in bug 289470
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289470 in open-iscsi "open-iscsi user-space does not match kernel module version" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289470
<mathiaz> there will be a note added to the release notes
<mathiaz> nijaba: do you have other questions?
<nijaba> mathiaz: nope, that's pretty clear
<mathiaz> so the plan is to fix iscsi in an SRU
<mathiaz> anything else to mention with regards to potential blockers for release?
<mathiaz> seems like not.
<mathiaz> so release!
<sommer> yay
<mathiaz> well - let's do some testing first :D
<mathiaz> kirkland: around?
<mathiaz> hm. well
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server FAQ
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server FAQ
<mathiaz> nijaba: ^^?
<nijaba> yes, I have noticed that the server FAQ on help.u.c is quite outdated
<mathiaz> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerFaq
<nijaba> I was wondering if someone would enjoy helping me updtaing it
<sommer> sure
<mathiaz> nijaba: do you think about updating the list of questions?
<nijaba> sommer: I think we should start listing what are the appropriate questions
<mathiaz> nijaba: or just updating the answer
<nijaba> and then work on the answers
<sommer> nijaba: ya, some of those are pretty old
<nijaba> anyone is welcome to add questions
<kirkland> mathiaz: sorry, my connectivity is been intermittent this morning
<nealmcb> do you see two faqs, a new one for hardy?
<nijaba> nealmcb: nope, only one for server
<nealmcb> and cover both dapper and hardy?
<nijaba> yep
<nealmcb> yeah it makes sense to have it all on one page
<mathiaz> it seems that most questions are fairly generic and not tied to a specific release
<nijaba> so action for next week: prepare questions
<mathiaz> who would like to do that?
<mathiaz> nijaba: sommer ?
<sommer> sure, I can put a list together
<nijaba> anyone is welcome, but sommer and I seem to have commited to it.  I think we can just go ahead and add at the bottom of the cirrent page
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer and nijaba to review the list of questions to be included in the Server FAQ
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer and nijaba to review the list of questions to be included in the Server FAQ
<mathiaz> nijaba: anything else?
<nijaba> not on this subject
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu "easy server" for the home user
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu "easy server" for the home user
<mathiaz> kirkland: ^^?
<mathiaz> xivulon: ^^?
<kirkland> mathiaz: this is from a user who pinged me privately
<kirkland> xivulon: are you around?
<kirkland> mathiaz: evidently not ....
<mathiaz> ok.
<kirkland> mathiaz: sorry.
<mathiaz> kirkland: do you want to postpone it to next week?
<kirkland> mathiaz: he claimed to have some ideas as to making the server easier to use for the home user
<nijaba> might be a DST issue ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: yes, let's postpone one week
<mathiaz> ok
<persia> I spoke with him about that for a bit at the last UDS : he has a bunch of ideas on the topic.
<mathiaz> persia: will he attend UDS?
<nealmcb> some of the history of this topic is at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/68/
 * persia tries to find the jaunty registration page
<nealmcb> Idea  #68: GUI configuration front end for common services
<persia> mathiaz, He's registered at https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty so I suspect so.
 * nealmcb wonders if ubottu should help with brainstorms like with bugs
<mathiaz> persia: great.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<mathiaz> anything to add?
<nijaba> is there an Ibex tshirt?
<mathiaz> nijaba: don't know
<mathiaz> nijaba: you plan to make one?
<nijaba> mathiaz: you should go ask Kat, this is so IMPORTANT ;)
 * kirkland notes that the 'Frozen Bubble' joke at the last server meeting made the news
 * zul keeps quiet
<kirkland> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue114#Server Team Meeting October 21st, 2008
<kirkland> well that didn't paste well
<Koon> kirkland: Frozen Bubble is *not* a joke, that's serious
<persia> You all do know that Frozen Bubble is blamed for delaying Sarge, and Sarge delays were oft discussed in the post "There will be an Ubuntu" discussions, right?
<kirkland> persia: yes, kees has told the story
<persia> Do take care with the level of your addictions : it's free to start, and makes you feel good, but ...
<nealmcb> persia: thanks for finally shedding some light on this :)
<nijaba> persia: smoker do know about addictions ;)
<xivulon> hi guys just back
<mathiaz> Is there any action to take wrt to Frozen Bubble?
<xivulon> still in time? was in another meeting
<mathiaz> xivulon: sure
<xivulon> the other day I was discussing with kirkland and superm1 whether there was any interest in a ubuntu-home-server
<xivulon> basically a dumbed down web interface for home users, possibly on the back of ubuntu-easy-business-server
<xivulon> I had drafted a very basic spec some time ago' on the subject (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfServer)
<xivulon> but then was taken by wubi development and have dropped the idea
<nealmcb> xivulon: have you seen  http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/68/   Idea  #68: GUI configuration front end for common services
<xivulon> not yet
<nealmcb> there has been strong interest expressed in this sort of thing for a long time, and ebox and Augeas are helping us close in on it, but still it is taking a long time....
<mathiaz> xivulon: there is also a spec written by ScottK - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-flavors
<xivulon> yes something like that, my idea was to do it as simple as possible
<xivulon> for instance home users do not need groups
<xivulon> all permissions should be set directly for users
<xivulon> and there are other services of interest to home users that are not necessarily relevant for businesses
<mathiaz> xivulon: like nealmcb said, the topics has already been discussed in former UDS.
<mathiaz> xivulon: as it seems you're coming the next one, we'll probably have some time to sit down and discuss this topic a bit
<nealmcb> xivulon: thanks for the zeroconfserver spec - I'll look at it and agree that a very simple interface for the home would also be great
<nealmcb> of course sometimes UI simplicity is hard to achieve :)
<mathiaz> xivulon: writting a spec is a good step
<xivulon> basic concept is to provide a simple interface for common tasks, advanced users can also tweak /etc settings
<mathiaz> xivulon: I'd focus on the user cases and specify who is the target user
<xivulon> the interface should not "break down" if more advanced configrations are used
<Koon> xivulon: that's the tricky part.
<mathiaz> xivulon: agreed. These concerns have already been raised and no perfect solution haven't been found yet.
<xivulon> I will revamp the spec a bit, was a couple of years ago' and just a quick draft
<xivulon> we will then take it from there
<mathiaz> xivulon: sounds like a good plan to me.
<nealmcb> I'd think that home users would far rather move on to something like ebox than editing in /etc....
<nealmcb> but do look at augeas....
<mathiaz> allright - anything else on this subject?
<mathiaz> xivulon: ?
<raphink> nealmcb: is augeas already used in ebox?
<nealmcb> xivulon: thanks again - I'm glad to have more folks thinking about this!
<nealmcb> raphink: not yet as far as I know, but there have been discussions
<raphink> nealmcb: ok thanks
<nealmcb> are ebox folks coming to uds?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I don't know
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<mathiaz> allright - anything else to add?
<mathiaz> We're testing the final isos - help is welcome - #ubuntu-testing is the place to hang out.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same place, same time?
<nijaba> 16UTC to adapt to DST?
<nijaba> DST will be effective in the US at that time IIUC
<sommer> yay for DST
<mathiaz> nijaba: seems like a good idea
<mathiaz> so next week, 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting?
<nijaba> +1
<Koon> +1
<Koon> +0 rather, I don't really mind either way
<sommer> +1 for me
<mathiaz> well - let's switch to 16:00 UTC so that the meeting doesn't move.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: hi :)
<dendrobates> stupid time change.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: you wanted to add something?
<dendrobates> nope
<mathiaz> ok great
<mathiaz> see you all next week, same place at 16:00UTC
<persia> Note that the meeting does change for some people if you change the time.  For some people it even moves from the not unreasonable 1am to the very awkward 3am.
<persia> (because of recent corresponding opposite DST correction)
<mathiaz> persia: hm... are you refering to the australians?
<persia> For 3am, yes.
<persia> For me, you're just moving it from 0:00 to 1:00, but I mostly just watch, without that much to add.
<mathiaz> persia: hm - right. However I haven't seen many australians active in the server team meeting for the last 3/4 months now
<persia> Well, it was 1:00 even then :)
<persia> Anyway, I'm just providing information, rather than saying it's a bad time.
<mathiaz> ok.
<mathiaz> so let's go back to iso testing
<nealmcb> will dst really change next week?  I thought it was delayed
<kirkland> o/
<mathiaz> nealmcb: according to timeanddate.com yes
<nealmcb> hmm - I guess not - ok
<mathiaz> ok - happy iso testing!
<mathiaz> see ya all next week!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<sommer> later all
<bryce> morning
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: Current meeting: Server Team 28 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 28 Oct 20:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 18:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 23:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<pgraner> Hello everyone... time for the kernel team weekly meeting
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * lieb wakes up
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Welcome new members
<MootBot> New Topic:  Welcome new members
<pgraner> I'd like to welcome Steve Conklin as the newest member of the kernel team. Steve is joining us from HP.
<BenC> sconklin: Welcome!
<sconklin> hi all!
<smb_tp> schily, Welcome +1
<rtg> dude
<BenC> sweet
<cking> sconklin: welcome!
<pgraner> Steve will be working with rtg and smb_tp on stable maint for awhile.
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Intrepid Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Intrepid Status
<pgraner> So far the release is looking very good. No major issues or breakdowns. We are on schedule. About to hit test cycles
<pgraner> Many of the team are in London today in the war room and its very calm :-)
<pgraner> We will keep our fingers crossed and are looking forward to the release party on Thurs. evening.
 * BenC wishes he had planned to be in london this week
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Intrepid Updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Intrepid Updates
<pgraner> With Intrepid winding down we need to address all the bugs that didn't make the release.
<pgraner> They are tagged with "intrepid-updates'
<rtg> pgraner: there is at least one oops in i4965 w/802.11n that needs some TLC
<pgraner> If you have any bugs (i.e. the Dell double key bug) that need to go out we need to get them tagged ASAP.
<pgraner> I'd like to get everyone focused on getting those bug knocked out ASAP.
<pgraner> The current list is at:
<pgraner> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.milestone%3Alist=2134&field.component-empty-marker=1&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_cve.used=&field.tag=&
<pgraner> field.tags_combinator=ANY
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.milestone%3Alist=2134&field.component-empty-marker=1&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_cve.used=&field.tag=&
<pgraner> They are already tagged, take a look and if you know of any that should be there get them tagged. Next meeting we will set the release date of this kernel
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to add kernel date to next weeks agenda
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to add kernel date to next weeks agenda
<pgraner> We will do a separate security kernel. We need to work with kees on the ordering based on CVE severity.
<pgraner> smb_tp: once Intrepid goes out, it falls with you as maint.
<pgraner> Any questions?
<smb_tp> pgraner, Yep sure
<smb_tp> CVE severity was low according to kees. (up to now)
<pgraner> smb_tp: I know thats why we need to figure out do we do the bugs first or the CVEs
 * pgraner things at this point bugs
<pgraner> s/things/thinks/
 * smb_tp thinks so, too
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Status of wireless backport (timg)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status of wireless backport (timg)
<pgraner> rtg: can we get this into the bug fix kernel?
<rtg> Im keeping pace with Linville's updates. Its testing right now, but looks good.
<pgraner> rtg: i.e. how much more time do you need
<rtg> I'm want to make sure I don't hose the -mid guys
<rtg> I'll test for another day or so, but I think its ready
<pgraner> rtg: understand. You have a week to estimate a timeframe.
<rtg> k, anything else?
<pgraner> rtg: not from me on this topic
<pgraner> [TOPIC] QA Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Bugs
<pgraner> ogasawara: whats new?
<ogasawara> I wanted to point out https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/287711/comments/4
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 287711 in linux-backports-modules-2.6.27 "wireless network lags - rt61pci driver" [High,Triaged]
<pgraner> rtg: you aware of this one?
<rtg> nope, lemme have a look.
<pgraner> [LINK] http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/intrepid-buglist.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/intrepid-buglist.html
<rtg> i mean, I'll look later
<pgraner> rtg: Cool.
<ogasawara> additionally, I was working with bug 286169 and we've narrowed it down to a patch that was cherrypicked from upstream
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286169 in linux "battery and thermal dissappears after few minutes of booting. on msi ex600 laptop" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286169
<pgraner> ogasawara: nice. Can you start tagging them with the updates tag
<ogasawara> pgraner: sure
<rtg> ogasawara: that EC storm patch fixed some other issues.
<pgraner> [ACTION] ogasawara to tag low hanging fruit bugs for intrepid-updates
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogasawara to tag low hanging fruit bugs for intrepid-updates
<ogasawara> rtg: ok cool
<ogasawara> I've also started putting Intrepid SRU candidates at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/kernel-sru.html
<ogasawara> but it looks like the ones I've posted so far have patches in the 2.6.27.x stable kernels
<pgraner> ogasawara: whats the difference between an update and the SRU list your keeping? The release team created the "updates" tag for the post release issues?
<pgraner> ogasawara: they appear to be very similar if not the same
<ogasawara> pgraner: it was a list created prior to the tag.  if they overlap now I'll just start tagging and avoid maintaining a separate list.
<pgraner> ogasawara: awesome.
<pgraner> I think rtg's RFC would take care of the 2nd point ogasawara made about things being in the 2.6.27 stable tree
<pgraner> I haven't seen alot of feedback on it, can everyone respond to it ASAP if not we will take a decision very soon (like next week)
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to add rtg's RFC to agenda for decision next week
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to add rtg's RFC to agenda for decision next week
<rtg> pgraner: I haven't seen any real dissent, its just carping about the details.
<pgraner> ogasawara: anything else?
<ogasawara> pgraner: all good here
<pgraner> [TOPIC] UDS Status & Prep
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Status & Prep
<pgraner> I'll be sending out an email with the list of topics and dependencies to other tracks to the mailing list next week and soliciting input from the community at large.
<pgraner> Other than that there has not been much due to the intrepid release
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to send email to list on UDS topics and plan along with solicitation of community input.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to send email to list on UDS topics and plan along with solicitation of community input.
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<pgraner> Anyone have items they would like to bring up/discuss?
<rtg> I've backported 2.6.27.4 into ubuntu-hardy-next. Its currently cooking in the kernel-ppa
<pgraner> rtg: are you announcing that anywhere besides this meeting? i.e. a CFT type email with the link?
<rtg> pgraner: I usually do, but its been awhile since I made an update
<rtg> I'll wait until I have a successful build :)
<pgraner> rtg: that helps
<pgraner> I want to remind everyone to assign bugs to yourself when you take one. This helps everyone know who to talk to if there are questions etc...
<pgraner> Anyone have other items?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team
<pgraner> Going once... going twice... gone.
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Roundtable
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roundtable
<pgraner> pgraner
<pgraner> I'm finishing up the release here in london and will start turning attention to the overall number of bugs.
<pgraner> ogasawara: I'd like to have a quick call next week about what we can do to start addressing this in the week or two of slack time that we have.
<ogasawara> pgraner: sure, my schedule should be fairly open
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to set up a call with ogasawara on bug squashing
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to set up a call with ogasawara on bug squashing
<pgraner> Thats about it for me...
<pgraner> timg: how about you?
<pgraner> rtg: how about you
<rtg> I'm outta here. lunch time
<pgraner> rtg: nice....
<pgraner> BenC: How about you?
<BenC> Not much outside of toshiba-acpi and some key press issues
<BenC> From Mario's description it sounds like his problem is different than the one I'm fixing, and might be an Xorg bug, so I need to find out for sure and pass it on to Bryce if so
<BenC> already asked for more info on the bug
<pgraner> BenC: I have the hardware here and have duplicated his findings
<pgraner> BenC: I'll get that in the bug after the meeting
<pgraner> BenC: Its not X, it happens at the console in single user
<BenC> pgraner: hmm...ok
<pgraner> BenC: Anything else?
<BenC> pgraner: nope
<pgraner> Looks like amitk didn't make it... so next on the list is... smb_tp
<pgraner> smb_tp: what say you?
<smb_tp> There hasn't been much. The security updates went out on Monday. So far only one possible regression was mentioned
<smb_tp> But that might be a known lilo issue
<pgraner> smb_tp: what are you plans/availability for next week?
<smb_tp> Beside of that security updates for lum might still need a bit of care
<smb_tp> pgraner, I should be available mostly all week. I would see whether kees comes with a new CVE list and get to that and get on more bugs for intrepid
<pgraner> smb_tp: I thought you were moving next week so would be out of the net some...
* ongolaBoy changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: #fedora-qa
<smb_tp> I am working from my parents home. Getting the officail paperwork done and looking for a new flat in parallel
<pgraner> smb_tp: ack... sounds good.
<smb_tp> s/officail/official/
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team
<pgraner> cking: how about you?
<cking> well.. more of the OEM bug squishing. Doing more sane bug fixing this week - audio - rather than vexing BIOS issues
<rtg> how anyone could claim audio bugs are sane is beyond me!
 * pgraner nods
<cking> rtg: at least I have the source :-)
<rtg> that hasn't helped me one whit.
<pgraner> cking: you'll be down here thurs. for the release party and to meet sconklin in person?
<cking> pgraner: indeed - looking forward to meeting sconklin and all that release party stuff too.
<pgraner> cking: cool
<pgraner> lieb: hows things with you?
<lieb> got my build env working.  thanks to some email today, the race in vt is deeper than I thought...
<lieb> other than that, life is good
<rtg> lieb: did my scripts help?
<lieb> yea.  There wree a few other missing bits.  I'll gather and update the approp wiki pages
<rtg> cool.
<rtg> some of I learned by osmosis
<pgraner> lieb: great...
<lieb> like all U**X docs, it assumes you already know this stuff
<lieb> seepage, I like that...
<rtg> and if you already know, why read the docs :)
<pgraner> last but not least sconklin ... you've prob not been around long enough yet, anything you'd like to add?
<sconklin> Just happy to be here
<pgraner> Ok... I guess thats about it. I'll call end of meeting...
<BenC> sconklin and lieb will be in mountain view, correct?
<lieb> easy commute...
<pgraner> BenC: rtg is working the details on this but yes
<rtg> pgraner: UDS, not PDX
<pgraner> BenC: sorry yes they will be at UDS
 * pgraner has too many trips in the brain
 * sconklin is in North Alabama
<sconklin> lives there, will be at UDS
<pgraner> I'll call it end of meeting...
<rtg> I thought sconklin was in London with you?
<pgraner> rtg: he is
<rtg> doh!
<BenC> lieb: you should still stay at the hotel with us...much better chance for social gatherings
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:50.
<pgraner> Thanks everyone!
<BenC> pgraner: thanks
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<juliux> evening
<afflux> hi juliux
<juliux> \o/ afflux
<savvas_> for the EMEA Membership meeting, do the member candidates have to attend the meeting too?
<afflux> savvas_: I think so. They usually introduce themselves here, iirc
<forumsmatthew> yes, the candidates need to be here
<savvas_> hm.. they never actually cleared that out :\
<forumsmatthew> if the candidate is not here, we have no way to talk with them
<savvas_> how long do such meetings last?
<forumsmatthew> usually an hour, maybe 90 minutes
<forumsmatthew> there is a short list this time, so it might be shorter
<juliux> savvas_: around 15-20min per candidate
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: EMEA Membership Board Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<savvas_> thank you all :)
<savvas_> (I hope I don't get beeped in the meantime)
<juliux> hi _Lux
<_Lux> good evening all
<_Lux> hi juliux
<afflux> hi
<_Lux> hi Richard, ys76
<ys76> Hi Dirk, Hi dennda
<juliux> hi ys76 ;)
<riot_le> hi, is Germany-Meeting here ;-)
<afflux> hehe
<phanatic> good evening everyone
 * dennda was paid well
<_Lux> hi phanatic
<forumsmatthew> hi, phanatic
<juliux> dennda: lol
<ys76> dennda: I told you not to spread that!
<riot_le> ys76: hey where is my part?
<juliux> ys76: where is my?
<ys76> Uh, it's getting expensive right now...
<_Lux> ys76: I did not find anything on my account
<ys76> _Lux: maybe tomorrow...
<riot_le> ys76: i think you can pay it at the next Ubucon in our Currency "MaÃ"
<phanatic> hehe :)
<juliux> riot_le: good idea
<ys76> That would be a nice idea...
<_Lux> it is a question of gallons (of beer) ...
<juliux> i will add that to our wikipage;)
<afflux> it would be, indeed. Since I'd appear there too
<afflux> (probably...)
<jernst> hello Regional Board, sorry to be late...
<forumsmatthew> hi, jernst . We are still waiting for board members, so no worries
<juliux> forumsmatthew: have you pinged them?
<forumsmatthew> juliux, not yet...I was trying to finish something up (work-related), so I'm guilty too...
<juliux> forumsmatthew: ok
<phanatic> popey has an excuse to be a bit late, but he should be here within 10 mins
<juliux> phanatic: as usal, i bet he is making some pasta atm;)
<phanatic> juliux: nope, he's getting home right now :)
<juliux>  phanatic ahhh
<juliux> phanatic: last loco council meeting he was making pasta and then he provides a picture of it;)
<afflux> I'm starving right now
<phanatic> hehe :)
<ys76> I had a wonderfull dinner ;-)
<afflux> I've chocolate
<phanatic> PriceChild: ping
<PriceChild> pong
<PriceChild> *just* walked in, expected to be working during this.
<forumsmatthew> shall we do a quick board roll call? who is here?
<phanatic> ack
<PriceChild> me 8-)
<forumsmatthew> dennis? stephane? Mark?
<forumsmatthew> I know popey is on his way
<popey> hi
<forumsmatthew> speak of the devil...
<juliux> hey popey
<forumsmatthew> :)
<popey> it's pizza tonight by the way, not pasta :)
<riot_le> hi popey
<PriceChild> msg popey Your trousers are still tucked in to your socks.
<popey> :)
<PriceChild> fail
<juliux> damn
<afflux> indeed :)
<forumsmatthew> you're doing it wrong
<savvas_> he might be looking for some spinach :p
<popey> who else are we waiting for?
<forumsmatthew> two questions; anyone heard from the three missing members and know their plans? and can we proceed with only four of us here?
<phanatic> forumsmatthew: i thing stgraber said that he couldn't come
<phanatic> think*
<forumsmatthew> okay. anyone heard from/about dennis and mark?
<riot_le> hi hacktick ;-)
<_Lux> hi martin
<riot_le> hi Dirk
<_Lux> hi Martin
<ys76> Uh, another guy to pay for....
<hacktick> hey :)
<_Lux> German Ubuntu members are close to being complete this evening
<forumsmatthew> hmm.... can we meet with only four? opinions from phanatic , PriceChild and popey would be appreciated
<riot_le> i think ccm is not here
<PriceChild> I don't see a problem as there's a majority, comes down to personal preference and i think we've chosen not to before?
<juliux> _Lux: ccm is missing;)
<juliux> _Lux: and all the devs;)
<hacktick> the last time I have beenin this channel was my membership approval in June, pidgin shows it :)
<_Lux> juliux, riot_le that is what I call close
<phanatic> i think it's okay to go on...
<riot_le> _Lux: ah ok
<_Lux> riot_le, "nah dran"
<forumsmatthew> maybe we can hold any candidates that are not obvious and about whom we are not unanimous for the next meeting, but at least start now and see what we think???
<phanatic> forumsmatthew: yeah, just wanted to mention that imho only those applicants can be approved, who get +1 from all of the attending board members
<forumsmatthew> phanatic, +1
<forumsmatthew> PriceChild, popey, you guys good with that plan?
<PriceChild> sure
<forumsmatthew> popey?
<PriceChild> I think I'm going to feel mean :/
<savvas_> er.. one more question, we don't have to bring other ubuntu members (sponsors?), do we? because I can't say I know anyone that can "guarantee" me
<PriceChild> savvas_: its not a requirement, but it always helps
<dennda> savvas_: you don't have to, but it helps
 * dennda fails at speedy answers
<forumsmatthew> savvas_, if they can't come with you, they can make a comment on your wiki page, and it would still be helpful
<PriceChild> popey: are you around? If we're going to do anything I think its time.
<forumsmatthew> hmm...no response from popey. Perhaps it would be better to reschedule... three board members active won't give us the best chance to give a good and honest appraisal of candidates
<forumsmatthew> I want to do everyone justice
<forumsmatthew> okay, I move to reschedule...
<forumsmatthew> wait...
 * dennda appreciates this *dramatic* moment
 * _Lux too
<markvandenborre> hi guys, sorry I'm late, but a friend stood at my door in tears, couldn't just run away
<forumsmatthew> hi markvandenborre, glad you could be here
<popey> PriceChild: sorry, had to pop up to sort son out
<forumsmatthew> yay! popey is here
<phanatic> good news :)
<forumsmatthew> let's start before anyone has to leave
<popey> :)
<popey> ok
<forumsmatthew> is our first candidate present? schakenberg, you here?
<forumsmatthew> I don't seem him listed. Pinging jernst
<jernst> yep I'm here !
<forumsmatthew> great! give us your introduction as we pull up your wiki
<jernst> Hello, My name is Jonathan Ernst (jernst). I'm 28 and live in Geneva, Switzerland. I'm a computer scientist and I'm using Linux since 1999. I'd like to be an Ubuntu member because I feel I belong to this community and can contribute something back. I'm member of Ubuntu Swiss Users and Ubuntu French Translators. I'm mostly working on French l18n (most GNOME packages), Wine, advocacy, user support, system administration and bug triage/re
<forumsmatthew> looking at your launchpad pages...
 * markvandenborre too
<PriceChild> jernst: linky to forums profil?
<PriceChild> *profile
<jernst> one sec.
<stgraber> jernst: Do I know you ?
<forumsmatthew> I like the long history of translation contributions, going back to 2006
<forumsmatthew> find that forum profile link yet?
<jernst> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=373275
<jernst> http://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/profile.php?id=87993
<jernst> (not a lot of logged in messages I'm afraid)
<jernst> stgraber: I know you are member of ubuntu-ch but we don't know each other personnaly
<popey> jernst: heh 1 post
<stgraber> jernst: so you never attented a ubuntu-ch release party ?
<stgraber> *attended
<jernst> not yet, I wish we could organise one in Geneva or Lausanne for Intrepid as my german is not that good
<stgraber> there was one at the EPFL for Hardy, I couldn't attend this one though. The ones in Zurich usually have some english-speaking attendees too and are usually fun
<jernst> I attended an install fest at the EPFL though
<jernst> (I was an EPFL student myself)
<forumsmatthew> did you bring a cheering section with you to the meeting?
<forumsmatthew> anyone who knows you better than we do?
<popey> jernst: what three things would you like to do for ubuntu in the next 6 month cycle?
<jernst> vuntz told me he was not sure to be able to be here tonight but he wrote a testimonial on my wiki page
<jernst> and Claude Paroz did the same (I guess you know him too)
<PriceChild> jernst: Could you expand on "Forum help (2007-2008) " please?
<stgraber> jernst: ok, Vuntz and Claude testimonials are good for me (I know and met both, Claude being a member of my previous lug :))
<jernst> popey: My current "fight" is to make sure that the computers in Geneva's schools that are now all dual booting with Ubuntu are working well (they have borked the installation and it's currently unusable). Then I will continue my involvment in launchpad (bug reporting, bug triage and I just started to leard to send debdiff patches). The third thing I'd like to do is to be more involved in my loco ubuntu-ch
<jernst> PriceChild: I have helped users in linuxquestions, ubuntu forums (french and englis) and other application-specific forums (Wine comes to mind)
<forumsmatthew> With the testimonials, and the consistent and long history of involvement with translation, I am ready to give a +1
<stgraber> +1 from me
<popey> I agree with forumsmatthew, and I'd be interested in hearing more of jernst blogging about his efforts with ubuntu in schools in geneva, +1
<stgraber> (I'm currently at work so don't expect me to follow all the meeting though)
<PriceChild> jernst: As far as I can tell, you have a combined 4 posts on ubuntuforums.org & forums.ubuntu-fr.org ?
<PriceChild> or did i read the referral part or something silly
<phanatic> +1 from me too, keep up the good work in the schools, that's really important!
<jernst> PriceChild: I thing I have about 15-20 posts as I have made some unregistered on these forums. But you are right that's not much
<forumsmatthew> PriceChild, markvandenborre ?
<jernst> s/thing/think
<markvandenborre> thinking and reading
<jernst> PriceChild: I also hang around on #ubuntu-fr and #gnomefr
<markvandenborre> +1
<markvandenborre> please greet Myriam SchweingrÃ¼ber from me whenever you might meet her in .ch
<forumsmatthew> thanks, markvandenborre. PriceChild ?
<jernst> markvandenborre: will do, she seems to be nice organising ubuntu-ch
<PriceChild> I think I'm going to go +1, and would like to see you start shouting out about your achievements getting Ubuntu working in these important places.
<forumsmatthew> great! It looks like we are unanimous, then.
<jernst> PriceChild: I also intend (if I am getting membership) to post on Ubuntu Planet, so you might hear about it
<popey> jernst: we expect it :)
<forumsmatthew> congrats, jernst
<markvandenborre> congratulations!
<_Lux> jernst: Congratulations
<ys76> jernst: Congrats!
<jernst> Thanks everyone, I'm very happy !
<PriceChild> jernst: Hoping so.
<forumsmatthew> afflux, your turn. :)
<afflux> alright
<riot_le> jernst: Congrats!
<afflux> Hi, I'm Kjell Braden. I'm 17 and a student from germany and I use Ubuntu since 2005/06. I work with bugs at launchpad for two years now, I occasionally join in on bug days and I participate in the five-a-day project. In summer 08 I also helped juliux and others at the Ubuntu booth at Linuxtag in Berlin.
<juliux> jernst: congrats
<afflux> Note that I forgot to mention that I did some merge/sync work (in the gutsy release cycle, IIRC).
<savvas_> forumsmatthew: I'm out, just got beeped, some other time, life calls :) sorry everyone!
<forumsmatthew> savvas_, sorry...next time
<PriceChild> Well that's a bit of karma.
<forumsmatthew> I"m having trouble getting the wiki to load. Is anyone else having problems?
<popey> yes
<dennda> yes
<afflux> me too
<dennda> worked a few minutes ago though
<markvandenborre1> I have the wiki pages locally
<markvandenborre1> should I upload them somewhere public?
<juliux> it is no very slow
<dennda> moinmoin going nuts X)
<juliux> now
<popey> pastebin
<juliux> dennda: fix it pls;)
<_Lux> nothing new for moinmoin ... sorry to say that
<markvandenborre1> http://pastebin.com/mcf1072e
<forumsmatthew> thank you, markvandenborre1
<riot_le> its seems that it still works now
<dennda> afflux: what's your nick on launchpad again?
<afflux> ~afflux
<afflux> ;)
<PriceChild> Hehe, didn't know we had a "bugmaster"
<forumsmatthew> I see a lot of good karma from answering questions, bug work, and a good testimony from Brian Murray.
<PriceChild> indeed
<popey> afflux: how was linuxtag?
<afflux> quite nice
<juliux> i am sorry but i forget to add my testimonials
<juliux> and afflux forget to add to his wikipage that he is a good support on #ubuntu-de
<afflux> since it was my first time, it was quite impressing to see how easy it was to help with the people's issues ;)
<afflux> and of course, it was very cool to meet the other guys from the loco team
 * dennda is here to support afflux on his way to ubuntu membership
<juliux> afflux: you are invited to come again to linuxtag;)
<afflux> hi dennda :>
<forumsmatthew> I am also pleased to see a long history. afflux is not a newcomer, but has a history in the community
<afflux> juliux: not sure whether it will collide with exams, will check that
<juliux> afflux: it is at the end of june
<popey> based on a good track record of help via launchpad, real world stuff at linuxtag and testimonials from brian and juliux :), +1
<afflux> juliux: ah, that sounds good
<forumsmatthew> Agreed, and dennda as well. +1
<phanatic> indeed, +1
<juliux> afflux: we have allready marked you for a talk about bug work next year at ubucon;)
<afflux> right...
<ys76> juliux: noted...
<popey> er yeah, and dennda too :)
<afflux> hope thekorn will be alright too ;)
<juliux> afflux: he promised;)
<markvandenborr1> sorry... networking prob
<PriceChild> +1 - Keep it going!
<forumsmatthew> we have four +1, waiting for mark to have a chance to catch up
<markvandenborr1> +1
<afflux> markvandenborr1: need my backlog?
<afflux> uhuh, that was easy :)
<forumsmatthew> congratulations, afflux !
<_Lux> afflux: Congrats
<hacktick> gz afflux
<afflux> thank you all!
<ys76> Congrats!
<popey> keep it up
<riot_le> afflux: Congrats!
<juliux> afflux: congrats!
<juliux> \o/
<forumsmatthew> ys76, you are up.
<ys76> *nod*
<ys76> Hi! I am Richard "ys76", a 32y old system administrator living next to Duisburg/Germany. Started using Linux in 1997 when I was not able to    install Win 95 on my brand new box. But Linux was so easy to install... I am a member ofthe German Loco, German Event, Ubuntu-EU serverteam    and member of the board of the german ubuntu asscociation. My contributions to Ubuntu are mainly in organizing events like the german speaking
<afflux> and thanks for your support juliux, dennda and brian ;)
<ys76> Ubucon and representing Ubuntu at exhibitions and fairs.
 * _Lux supporting ys76
 * juliux too
 * hacktick wants to support ys76, too
<markvandenborr1> ys76: is a +1 for me, based upon the .de endorsements alone
<phanatic> what a team of cheerleaders :)
<hacktick> :)
<ys76> markvandenborr1: Thx...
<riot_le> supporting ys76 application too
<afflux> heh
<_Lux> :-)
<juliux> stgraber: btw ys76 is an example that ubuntu-de is not a forum locoteam;)
<forumsmatthew> if everyone had a wiki page like this one, and a team of supporters like these, our meetings would all be very quick
 * ys76 wakes dennda up
<forumsmatthew> I'm +1
<phanatic> impressive work and testimonials (and a fellow event organizer), +1 :)
 * dennda is here to support ys76 as well
<stgraber> +1
<forumsmatthew> PriceChild, popey ?
<stgraber> juliux: I didn't say that ubutnu-de was ONLY a forum team :)
<juliux> stgraber: i know
<popey> easy +1
<afflux> I'll have to leave now, congrats in advance ys76 ;)
<PriceChild> +1 from me.
<_Lux> ys76: Congrats
<forumsmatthew> yay! congrats, ys76 !
<juliux> congrats ys76
<riot_le> ys76: Congrats Richard!
<dennda> wiki up again by the way
<ys76> Thx all! And feel free to drop by at the next german Ubucon in 2009....
<afflux> is the location fixed yet?
<juliux> now we have a sponsor for the social event at ubucon2009;)
<_Lux> ys76: could be very expensive
<juliux> afflux: not yet
<ys76> (Or maybe even earlier at the Linuxtag or somewhere else...)
<riot_le> ys76: you know that we have a deal at Paulaner ;-)
<forumsmatthew> I think that is all for us today. schackenberg isn't here and savvas had to leave, so we will save them for next time around.
<markvandenborr1> kthxbye :)
<riot_le> oh i have a question to the board members
<markvandenborr1> ah?
<forumsmatthew> please, ask
<dennda> By the way: My ubuntu membership is about to expire in january. Is there any documentation on how to prolong it?
<popey> dennda: just visit the ubuntu-members team and extend it yourself
<riot_le> how long will it take to be added to the ubuntumembers-Launchpad Group, i was approved at the last meeting
<forumsmatthew> you will receive an email at the address in your launchpad account soon
<dennda> popey: oh I didn't know it was that easy
<forumsmatthew> right before you expire, with instructions on renewing
<popey> or do that :)
<juliux> i think you can' t renew your membership yourself longer at lp
 * dennda was thinking he had to show up on some board meeting again and bring fellow cheerleaders
<PriceChild> riot_le: oh dear, I guess we should do that now then :)
<forumsmatthew> can one of the other board members take care of the details of adding our three new members, etc? I have to run and will be offline for a while
<forumsmatthew> riot_le, sorry...that can be taken care of soon
<_Lux> all: Have a nice evening
<riot_le> bye Dirk
<forumsmatthew> I have to go now...bye, all!
<ys76> Thx to the board and enjoy the evening!
<riot_le> PriceChild: my LP-Name is martin.kaufmann ~martin.kaufmann
<riot_le> sorry for the mistake only ~martin.kaufmann
<PriceChild> riot_le: do you remember the date of our last meeting? *checks email*
<riot_le> 16.10.2008
<PriceChild> You already told me that didn't you..
<riot_le> what do you mean?
<PriceChild> Sorry ignore me, date sounded familiar as though I'd just been told it is all.
<riot_le> ok
<riot_le> PriceChild: what do you think how long it will takes that @ubuntu.com email-adress will work?
<PriceChild> riot_le: absolutely no idea, 'depends' i believe
<afflux> ah, the @ubuntu.com address was lp-account@ubuntu.com, right?
<PriceChild> afflux: yep
<afflux> aww ;)
<PriceChild> riot_le: what's your launchpad id?
<riot_le> PriceChild: ~martin.kaufmann
<PriceChild> aha, looking at too late a revision on the wiki
<riot_le> ah ok, seems that was my mistake to delete my Application to early from the wiki-page
<PriceChild> hehe no tisn't a problem
<riot_le> seems that you added me to group now, thank you PriceChild
<PriceChild> riot_le: no probs
<riot_le> so i will leave now, has something to Work now
<jernst> good night everyone, thanks for the approval and congrats to the other new members
<afflux> good night jenda
<afflux> doh
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-29
<dholbach> good morning
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board
<ara> hello!!
<cr3> ara: hi there
<heno> hello!
<ara> tomorrow is the D day :-)
<pedro_> hello everybody
<heno> hopefully, we are getting new images for testing just now
<heno> (or an hour or so from now)
<ara> heno: dvd? or all of them?
<heno> dvd and desktop
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara, sbeattie, stgraber: meeting ping
<ogasawara> hi
<sbeattie> hey
<bdmurray> hello
<heno> hey all!
<schwuk> hi
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> just want to run a quick meeting about the testing still ahead
<heno> we are most likely getting new live and dvd images due to bug 287747
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287747 in ubiquity "Kernel image missing after reinstallation preserving /home" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287747
<heno> updated test case here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/LiveCDInstall
<heno> background spec: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbiquityPreserveHome
<davmor2> hi
 * cgregan waves
<heno> the new images will of course need testing again on all other test cases as well
<heno> so, again: help with image testing appreciated :)
<stgraber> heno: pong
<heno> anything else noteworthy show up in triage
<heno> hi stgraber, just to let you know we are starting :)
<schwuk> heno: when will we have the new images?
<heno> schwuk: in about an hour
<davmor2> heno: only the home page for FF is no right yet but should be shortly
<heno> ok, that can be fixed server-side I guess
<davmor2> heno: yeah they are waiting for release notes and the like before they can do anything :)
<heno> existing hardy installs (or 8.10 beta-ish) will be helpful in testing 287747, so you might want to dig those out
<heno> any other topics today?
<davmor2> did anyone know about the preserve home feature?
<heno> I did, though I had not tried it myself
<bdmurray> I noticed that bug isn't tagged iso-testing I wonder how that happened
<heno> it's not explicit in the installer - just happens when you chose not to format
<bdmurray> Was it not reported at the iso tracker too?
<ara> bdmurray: because maybe it was reported by someone not on the tracker
<ara> bdmurray: just guessing
<davmor2> bdmurray: no
<heno> bdmurray: probably not - it wasn't a test case until after the fact
<heno> (I just updated the wiki with that)
<bdmurray> ah, they say 'use case' not 'test case'
<davmor2> bdmurray: there is no test for it.  I didn't even know it existed
<heno> for jaunty we should review all specs at some milestone, like alpha 2 to make sure anything new has a test case
<heno> we were pretty good at that for hardy, less so for intrepid (clearly)
<heno> ok, thanks everyone!
<davmor2> short meeting :)
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:15.
<stgraber> heno: yeah, it's something I was hoping to have done before my pre-RC testcase update but looks like not all new testcases were added
<stgraber> (the server team did a good job at that though)
<ara> ok, see you later!
<ara> bye!
<mrooney> heno: I came in late, but I have an existing Hardy install I can attempt to upgrade in any way, if that can help
<mrooney> if you are looking for testing data
<heno> mrooney: great, see the top section of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/LiveCDInstall
<heno> mrooney: wait a bit for new images to appear
<mrooney> heno: okay, are you looking for a test of the preserve home feature?
<heno> stgraber: I was thinking mostly of writing cases, not so much about adding them to the tracker
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-30
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
 * persia rings the alert bell
<StevenK> Did I make it? :-P
<ogra> no, you missed
<ogra> :P
<StevenK> Aww!
 * ogra proposes we move todays meeting to #ubuntu-release-party
<persia> It's just a little noisy, no?
<StevenK> Oh yeah. That'll go *real* well
<ogra> makes it more exciting :)
 * persia doesn't want exciting
<ogra> c'mon, its release day
<ogra> some excitement is allowed
<StevenK> ogra: No excitement for you
<ogra> where is lool ?
<ogra> :'-(
<persia> Excitement is dangerous.  Elevated heart rate.  You could suffer a mishap.
<davidm> StevenK, ogra can one of you take the meeting please
<ogra> excitement in happyness is healthy :)
<ogra> ok, lets go then
<ogra> [startmeeting]
<persia> It's #
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:06. The chair is ogra.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra> #topic Action Items from Oct 23rd, 2008
<ogra> doesnt like me :/
<StevenK> ogra: [topic]
<persia> It's [] for topic
<ogra> [Action Items from Oct 23rd, 2008]
<StevenK> It's a nice and consistent bot
<StevenK> ogra: "[topic] Action Items from Oct 23rd, 2008"
<ogra> if you know how to handle it, yes :P
<ogra> [topic] Action Items from Oct 23rd, 2008
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from Oct 23rd, 2008
<ogra> tsk
<ogra> persia to write an errata and milestone bug #287857
<persia> \o/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287857 in kourou "Ubiquity prompting for step 5 in --automatic mode on Ubuntu MID RC image" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287857
<StevenK> That has been sorted
<ogra> i guess thats all done since days
<persia> That actually got fixed, rather than needing errate.
<ogra> right
<ogra> and lots more ogt fixed as well last minute :)
<ogra> *got
<StevenK> Yup
 * persia thanks StevenK for the fast work on kourou
<ogra> i think we've done pretty damn well for all the stepstones we had in the way
<davmor2> Just for ogra: WOOHOO!
<ogra> :)
<ogra> next item: davidm to add a redirect page in wiki so folks reading announcement email get agenda (complete)
<ogra> says complete ... i'm inclined to belive that
<StevenK> Tes it
<StevenK> Er, Test
<davidm> It''s complete I tested it last week
<ogra> ok
<ogra> well, nothing else on the agenda apart from status reports it seems ...
<ogra> [topic] status of intrepid tasks: installer, images etc. (davidm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  status of intrepid tasks: installer, images etc. (davidm)
<ogra> is amit here ?
<StevenK> I'm hoping that is all done.
<ogra> hmm, doesnt look like
<StevenK> If not
<davidm> I don't see him
<StevenK> :-)
<ogra> StevenK, any intresting status items you want to tell us abut ? :)
<StevenK> I've been testing images. So no
<ogra> yeah, i think that goes for all of us ... plus renaming stress
<ogra> anything else ?
<StevenK> Right
 * ogra takes that as a no :)
<ogra> persia, ? anything else beyond testing
<persia> Yes.
<ogra> tell us :)
<persia> I want to talk about the process for people to join the mobile team.
<ogra> how is the status of that team atm ? is it handled like edubuntu or kubuntu teams ?
<persia> I think it ought be : someone who has been contributing to the mobile images for a bit adds themselves to the agenda, and we quiz them, and if a majority of us approve, they get to join.
<persia> Anyone else have any thoughts?
<ogra> i.e. do you gain membership joining it ?
<persia> Currently, the process is completely opaque, and involves bribing lool
<StevenK> Or David
<persia> No.  You gain commit to some of the bzr repos.
 * persia didn't think David accepted bribes
<ogra> he does, depends on the HW you send him ;)
<persia> Ah.
<StevenK> Or the foodstuffs
<ogra> heh
<persia> Anyway, I'm all for a process based less on graft.
<davidm> a documented process is something I am for myself
<ogra> well, i think since we aim to be part of the distro team it should rather work like any other of the subteams
<davidm> ogra, how do they work?
<ogra> but that would need somehing like a council etc
<ogra> you gain ubuntu membership with being allowed into the team
<persia> That's only Kubuntu.
<ogra> which is one of the steps needed to gain upload rights
<StevenK> And Xubuntu?
<ogra> edubuntu as well
<persia> Edubuntu, but not Xubuntu (last I checked)
<ogra> not sure about xubuntu, it once was
 * persia looks again
<ogra> but that might have changed when they started building from universe
<ogra> though i think it makes sense and gives extra benefit
<persia> Anyway, I don't think we're big enough to need to fuss about "Members", "Developers", etc.
<StevenK> Agreed
<persia> The server team seems like a better model : they just accept people who contribute stuff.
<davidm> +1
<ogra> ok, i'm overruled then :)
<StevenK> We aren't voting :-P
<persia> Yeah.  Xubuntu doesn't have any mapping to Ubuntu Membership or uploads currently.
<davidm> true, I'm simply expressing agreement, with an idea not voting on it as yet, I'm way too tired to vote on anything
<lool> Hi folks, sorry I was at lunch thinking meeting is at 2pm
<lool> (I moved to UTC+1)
<ogra> me too :)
<ogra> lool, any opinion on team membership processes ?
<lool> I think it should be clear that we ultimately decide to accept someone
<lool> perhaps naming explicitely who may nominate new members
<ogra> persia, proposed to just base on contributions
<lool> And that this is discussed at least in a meeting where we can ask questions to the candidate
<lool> (similar to core-dev with TB)
<ogra> and on people subscribing to the agenda being asked in the meeting
<lool> apart of that, I'm fine
<persia> I thought self-nominated would be good.  We can pick on them if they don't contribute enough.
<Burgundavia> ogra: is the mobile team interested in granting membership?
<ogra> Burgundavia, well, doesnt look like ...
<Burgundavia> if so, basically you need to come to the CC for that
<persia> Burgundavia, I don't think we have enough interested people yet to start that dicussion.
<StevenK> I don't think we want to grant ubuntu membership
<ogra> wh not ?
<Burgundavia> although I don;t see any specific reason why you couldn't and it would probably make sense
<ogra> if someone is only intrested in mobile
<ogra> he likely wont want to go to the CC
<ogra> or the LOCO group, or whoever approves members nowadays
<persia> I think it makes sense once we have enough popularity for our flavours.  Right now, we're still small.
<ogra> in the end its just an extra you get
<ogra> ad membership defines by contributing and agreeing to the CoC
<StevenK> I agree with persia
<Burgundavia> having a contributors team that has a low barrier to entry and a stepping stone to membership is a good idea, imho
<ogra> its just an additional goodie and people dont need to go to any additional entity to gain membership
<persia> Burgundavia, I'd agree with that : I just don't think our team is big enough to do that yet.
<ogra> it might attract more peope though
<ogra> *people
<CaPriCoRN^80> i am here :)
<ogra> if you want your membership easily ... contribute to mobile :)
 * StevenK gets distracted by #u-r-p
<ogra> hehe
<ogra> i said we should hold the meeting there :)
<StevenK> Haha
<ogra> so you dont have to switch
<StevenK> Oh yeah, with another 450 people
<persia> ogra, Can we have two separate conversations?  One about having a transparent method to have people join, and a second if we want to be able to grant membership?
<CaPriCoRN^80> ogra: contribute to mobile ? can u define that
<ogra> persia, indeed we can
<StevenK> We'd have 200 volunteers for the new membership process
<ogra> CaPriCoRN^80, fix bugs, help testing, make artwork, write docs ....
<ogra> write code ...
<ogra> etc
<ogra> anything that improves the work done by the mobile team
<ogra> StevenK, just announce the meeting there, they are all bored and waiting :)
 * lool needs to add something to the agenda
<CaPriCoRN^80> ogra: i am not very good in writing code . i just read on ubuntu site and thought to work with ubuntu people
<persia> So, anyone have any changes they want, or shall I just declare what I've proposed on the wiki?
<CaPriCoRN^80> about me . i have experience in network administration
<ogra> persia, i think the process as you defined it is fine
<CaPriCoRN^80> ogra: i want to join ubuntu people . thats my interest
<ogra> but i would really see added membership as a benefit ... which we should probably discuss by mail
<persia> ogra, Or just separately.
<ogra> right, lets move that to the end of the meeting then
<ogra> so ++ from me on persias proposal
<persia> lool, StevenK ?
<lool> +1 with above caveats
<persia> lool, I agree with the discussion part.  How do you think nomination should be limited?
<StevenK> I'd like to read the complete proposal before I vote
<ogra> lool, oh, so you are against self nomination ?
 * persia quickly drafts something in a pastebin
<lool> persia: Perhaps we need a core mobile team or a mobile team tech board; current suspects would be basically us :)
<lool> ogra: Not against self nomination no
<lool> I just want to restrict who decides of membership
<ogra> right, we'Re small enough to handle that easily and unbuerocratic atm
<persia> lool, We have mobile-core-dev.  Perhaps that would be the right group?
<lool> ie new members can not elect new members immediately
<CaPriCoRN^80> ogra: please let me know if i can participate
<CaPriCoRN^80> through some mean
<lool> persia: Something like that yes
<lool> ogra: I fully agree
<persia> CaPriCoRN^80, You're entirely welcome to contribute.  Please do so.  For specifics, I suggest asking in #ubuntu-mobile after the meeting.
<CaPriCoRN^80> ok
<ogra> persia, do you have a url for the proposal ?
<persia> http://paste.ubuntu.com/64588/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/64588/
<lool> I see we're still under the "status of intrepid tasks" [topic], but we've really been discussing adding new members
<ogra> StevenK, ^^^
<StevenK> Sounds good to me
<lool> Good enough to start with I think
<ogra> lool, well, we're not done with status, i asked persia if he had something to add to the rather non existing report :)
<davidm> Is work in the wiki enough to become a member?
<ogra> right, i think thats agreement so far
<persia> huh?  I don't have any status.  The release is happening.  I only wanted to talk about team membership.
<ogra> davidm, i'D say yes, depending on the wiki work
<persia> davidm, Could be : depends on the work.  If it helps us enough, I'd say "yes".
<ogra> persia, thats what i meant :)
<Burgundavia> persia: you should be explicitly clear that this is not Ubuntu membership, as it is currently ambiguous
<davidm> ogra, good, I think it''s important (given how much wiki work I've been doing of recent)
<ogra> davidm, someone who constantly writes helpful howtos shoud definately get membership
<persia> Burgundavia, Good point.  I'll clean that up, as I specifically *don't* mean Ubuntu membership.
<ogra> *team membership
<CaPriCoRN^80> orga: i joined ubuntu-mobile and wrote my query over there . let see
<persia> Burgundavia, Does  http://paste.ubuntu.com/64589/ address your concern?
<Burgundavia> yep, that works
<Burgundavia> although I would add a comment about how their mobile work can apply for future Ubuntu membership
<persia> That makes sense.
<ogra> thats to be discussed at the end of the meeting
<persia> Anyway, any objections to me adding this to the Mobile Team wiki page, and later editing quibbles expressed as wiki edits?
<ogra> but looks like we have general agreement on the process
<ogra> fine with me ...
<persia> OK.  I'm done then.
<Burgundavia> one last piece about uploading; afaik, all members of MOTU must also be members, but they can apply simultaneously. Check with dholbach though
<ogra> lool, anything to add to the status beyond image testing bughunting, release preparation etc ?
<lool> No
<lool> I have another topic to discuss at your convenience during this meeting
<lool> Which is new secretary
<StevenK> I was wondering about that
<ogra> at the end then
<lool> (I've added it to the end of the agenda some minutes ago)
<ogra> nothing from my side either beyond general release preparation ...
<StevenK> And davidm is the same, I'm guessing
<ogra> davidm, anything from your side for status beyond the general stuff ?
<davidm> indeed, I'm in london working with the release team here, learning ALOT.
 * ogra hopes they pointed you to #ubuntu-release-party :)
<davidm> So I'm up to my ears in learning the process
<lool> I'd like to note that I wont be around for most of November
<davidm> I done
<ogra> great
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam
<lool> persia: Looks good
<davidm> persia, works
<ogra> [topic] # New secretary for November (lool)
<MootBot> New Topic:  # New secretary for November (lool)
<ogra> any volunteers ?
<lool> So I've been aggregating the activity reports of people in the mobile team for september and october
<lool> And would love someone to pick up November
<lool> Doubly so as I'm not around much of November
<davidm> I want just to say this has been very helpful and wanted to thank lool for his efforts in October.
 * lool blushes
 * ogra hugs lool for keeping up with him
<davidm> I've been quite surprised just how much this has helped me during the last month.
<lool> So, any taker?
 * persia has a hankerning for January, and hopes someone else volunteers for November
<davidm> so StevenK persia ogra will one of you step up and take November please?
<lool> it gets you the benefit of knowing about activity before the end of the week!!
<ogra> heh
 * ogra takes it though usually hardly manages his own ARs
<lool> [agreed]!
<davidm> Thank you ogra
<lool> ogra: [agreed] ogra to be November's secretary
<ogra> [action] ogra to be the november secretary (no lipstick involved)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to be the november secretary (no lipstick involved)
<lool> Should I still take this week?
<lool> It started in Oct and ends in Nov :)
<StevenK> It isn't November until Saturday
<davidm> Since persia volunteered for Jan that leaves StevenK with December
<ogra> as you like, there wont be much on the list anyway
<ogra> ok, moving on then ...
<davidm> So unless there is disagreement are we  good until February?
<StevenK> Sounds like it
<ogra> [topic] should ubuntu membership go with mobile team membership ?
<MootBot> New Topic:  should ubuntu membership go with mobile team membership ?
<davidm> OK, thank you all
<persia> I say Not Yet.
<persia> We currently have some team members who are not yet Ubuntu Members,
<StevenK> Agreed, not yet
<ogra> i'D say yes :)
<persia> Let's wait until at least all of mobile-core-dev is Ubuntu Members, and then revisit.
<ogra> right, and they should become ubuntu members if they contribute
 * persia doesn't like non-members being responsible for Ubutu Membership
<ogra> oh, we have core members that arent ubuntu members ?
<persia> Yes.
<ogra> how does that work ?
<davidm> me
<ogra> ah
<ogra> well, i guess your contributions are enough to jusify membership already
<davidm> persia, how about if I abstain from any votes until I meet ubuntu membership?
<ogra> just a matter of paperwork
<persia> So, let's bring this up again after davidm has membership.
<ogra> ok
<davidm> ogra I'm not so sure from what I've been told.
<persia> davidm, I think you have a strong view of contributions to the Mobile Team, and would rather see your voice on applications to join the team.
<davidm> persia, OK, then we wait
<ogra> you are caring for copyright automatin since a while ... i would count that as a big contribution for example
<ogra> and there is surely more
<ogra> well, ok, lets wait then
<ogra> AOB ?
<davidm> OK so are we done on this topic for now then?
<ogra> we are
<StevenK> ogra: Then drive the meeting
<StevenK> :-P
<ogra> well, thats why i said AOB :)
<ogra> but seems there is nothing
<ogra> so going once ...
<ogra> twice ...
<StevenK> Wait!
<StevenK> Just kidding
<lool> crap, was preparing the same joke
 * StevenK wins
 * ogra waits until StevenK is done with kidding ...
<persia> Congrats everyone on getting intrepid complete.
<lool> but I wait until after he #closes meeting
<ogra> adjourned, thanks all
<ogra> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:57.
<lool> #endmeeting
<lool> thakns
<lool> ogra: thanks for chairing
<davidm> Yes, that is a BIG accomplishment for the team.
<lool> Chairing?  Oh we manage every week
<ogra> so now everyone go to #ubuntu-release-party !
<lool> It's not that hard really
<ogra> lool, :P
<davidm> release, mid will go up a tad late
<ogra> oh, why is that ?
<davidm> it does not have a prestaged image
<davidm> so we need to get it up there.
<ogra> it doesnt need one
<lool> Uh
<ogra> it stays on cdimage, no ?
<StevenK> UMPC does
<lool> No umpc, does
<ogra> cdimage isnt mirrored
<lool> -,
<ogra> ah
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
<persia> Anyone about for the Java meeting?
<ogra> they all got swallowed by #u-r-p :)
<persia> Yeah, probably :)
<persia> Well, congrats on the intrepid effort : we'll try again next week.
<Koon> grmbl
<persia> Koon, ?
<Koon> (late)
 * Koon has trouble with TZ.
<persia> Meeting was short.  Only agenda item was congrats on finishing intrepid.  Did you want to raise anything late?
<Koon> yay
<Koon> no, nothing :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-31
<persia> Is anyone about for the underannounced MOTU Meeting?
<ajmitch> there's meant to be a meeting?
<ajmitch> I think I recall you talking about it a couple of weeks ago, and how I wouldn't be here due to it being 5pm friday
<persia> Oddly, you seem to be about.  Aren't you supposed to be drinking or something?
<ajmitch> I'm just packing up to go home now
 * nixternal is here :)
<nixternal> should be going to bed though
 * persia is tempted to send out an announcement for the next one, and postpone all the agenda items until then.
<nixternal> that's what it is looking like
<nixternal> you and I can't hold the meeting, unless we want to vote on all of the agenda items and make everyone mad :)
<persia> No.  It might be the 14th then.
<nixternal> I will be back in town then
<nixternal> move the time back an hour and I can be here easily too
<nixternal> 23:00 here now, and I have to wake up at 04:00
<persia> Next meeting is at 12:00 UTC, but I think you get the free hour change anyway.
<nixternal> 06:00, which means I am at the gym
<nixternal> on that note, I am going to drink my last bit of water and go to sleep..busy gym day in the morning...legs... ewww
<persia> Right.  Sending mail now then.  Meeting ajdourned.
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> g'nite
<vorian> man
<vorian> missed it
<nixternal> go to bed
<vorian> no!
<vorian> there is kde to build :P
<nixternal> there are sheep to count
<nixternal> g'nite
<persia> There is KDE to build again?  Release just happened yesterday!
<nixternal> lol
<Spoils> grettings
<Spoils> greetings even
<Spoils> i don't know if there is a channel specifically for xubuntu, but...
<Spoils> i have a low end (processor wise) PC (notebook - Gateway solo 2500) at home that has gentoo on it
<Spoils> it runs ok
<Spoils> but i can't stand updating the portage because it takes a century to compile
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-02
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 14:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
<asac> @time ;)
<ubottu> Error: Unknown timezone: ;) - Full list: http://tinyurl.com/4vyvp8
<asac> @time
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 02 2008, 19:00:02 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 1 day
<asac> hi!
<fta> hi
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<asac>  -> agenda
<asac> if anyone has anything to add, go ahead
<fta> short agenda apparently
<asac> given that i am sick, its probably ok
<asac> :)
<asac> winter is coming
<asac> lets wait for gnomefreak ;)
<fta> ok
<stgraber> asac: you now have a month to get better, then you'll get the UDS-flu
<asac> oh no
<asac> i know about that
<asac> thought that california is hot then ;)
<stgraber> well, yeah, that'll be good especially as I'll be flying from Montreal where it'll be likely be really cold at this time of the year (it's already -2 outside :))
<asac> stgraber: what are you doing there?
<stgraber> asac: living and working :)
<asac> oh
<stgraber> moved there 3 months ago
<asac> from where?
<asac> oh switzerland
<asac> ok
<stgraber> yeah
<asac> cool ;)
<asac> fta: so i guess gnomefreak bailed out ;)
<fta> asac, or still fighting against evil wifi
<asac> oh he is on wifi?
<asac> i told him that drugs aint good for him ;)
 * asac wonders if he has still 256m
<asac> ok anyway lets get started ;) ...
<asac> NCommander applied for team membership
<asac> however, apparently he didnt made it here, even though he reaffirmed that he would participate
<asac> his area of interest is helping to be more of a debian bridge ;) ... i guess
<asac> he jumped the gun to help out on icedove ;), but from what i understood would be willing to do more.
<fta> not sure what kind of bridge we could (re)build here.
<asac> I dont know either. maybe he could also help communicating with debian maintainers
<fta> maybe he should start to contribute, before applying
<asac> trying to get patches out of them for instance
<asac> yeah. he only did the icedove update here.
<asac> gnomefreak: hi ;)
<gnomefreak> hi
 * gnomefreak trying to grab agenda
<asac> gnomefreak: so we are currently discussing ncommanders application
<asac> i think we are currently leaning towards asking for more contributions first ;)
<asac> anyway, he didnt show up so the question is void
<gnomefreak> works for me. if he can fix my network ill give him membership and 50 pounds of goldf
<asac> lets push that back to next meeting ... there should be plenty of time to show that he wants to help out more than once
<gnomefreak> ok we should ping him during the week about it
<asac> i think he definitly is technically adapt enough
<gnomefreak> push mine back as well
<asac> gnomefreak: you have 50 pounds of gold? thats quite a lot at todays prices
<asac> ok so thats done then i think
<gnomefreak> no but i have 50 pounds of goldf ;)
<asac> he
<asac> ok lets review actions from last meeting then ;)
<asac> i think they are there
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2008-09-14
<asac> 1st. Check for extensions and plugins that are not supported in Firefox 3, and remove them, if there are no updates for them
<asac> i think that was done
<asac> 2nd. Remove Firefox 2 from the archive
<asac> is done too i think
<gnomefreak> 3rd was done as well
<asac> yeah
<asac> that was "Add abrowser to all firefox rdepends and upload"
<gnomefreak> and 4th will hit in +1?
<asac> 4th. Try to get Firefox 3.1 alpha2 into the archive
<fta> failed
<asac> i am not sure when 3.1 will be out
<asac> we certainly want it in asap
<gnomefreak> its b1 now isnt it?
<asac> but for a while it probably should stay in universe not being the default
<fta> yes
<asac> we can then decide later in cycle
<asac> whether this is close enough to final and whether there are enough extensions compatible
<gnomefreak> work on it for universe in next dev cycle
<asac> but i would really prevent the pain we went through when releasing ffox 3 as b5
<asac> gnomefreak: i think we can immediately upload it to universe once the doors open
<gnomefreak> asac: its firefox there are always gonna be issues for people
<asac> ok so ltest carry that action forward with s/intrepid/jaunty/
<fta> asac, b1 or a snapshot ?
<asac> fta: milestones
<fta> ok
<asac> fta: we should explicitly disable the official branding imo
<fta> i ship snapshots as shiretoko now
<asac> fta: even if mozilla ships them with official ... because we cannot really guarantee security support in case it doesnt go to main and thats one of the reasons
<gnomefreak> replace Shiretoko with what?
<asac> fta: yeah. just in case they decide to switch on official branding in b3 or something and we ship that in universe
<asac> gnomefreak: the logo is ok
<asac> we can just use the unofficial branding i think
<asac> (e.g.the milestone branding)
<asac> fta: is that ok?
<asac> similar we should fix the .desktop file et al
<asac> but thats clear i guess
<fta> it's blue planet, not the bomb, nor the fox
<asac> fta: yeah thats the "milestone branding" i think
<fta> yes
<asac> should be ok
<gnomefreak> blue planet i thought was minefield
<asac> [ACTION] fta to bring up ffox 3.1 milestones when jaunty opens
<fta> ok
<asac> fta: we could provide backports in -hardy-backports as well if you want. but personally i hope that we can tap MOTU community for doing those backports
<fta> me too
<asac> fta: we could maintain the backport branches and leave the administrative things of uploading to MOTU
<asac> fta: i think you build for hardy anyway in your ppa right? so the backports are most likely available
<asac> ok
<asac> 5th. Write down how to get items into the monthly reports and send that to mailing list/wiki
<asac> -> failed miserably
<gnomefreak> once oked archive admins build and push
<asac> it was me underestimating release work and pain
<asac> ok i carry that action forward
<asac> [ACTION] asac, to Write down how to get items into the monthly reports and send that to mailing list/wiki
<asac> 6th. File a bug about removing libflashssupport from ia32-libs
<asac>  -> done
<gnomefreak> its not removed
<gnomefreak> afaik
<asac> 7th. Get mozilla-devscripts in Debian
<gnomefreak> maybe from ia32-* but it should be removed from archive all together
<asac> -> interestingly mike from debian commented on this and said that most features are not wanted for debian
<asac> i wouldnt have expected anything different, but we should maybe review how we can make it more useful
<fta> asac, they said parts of it was fine, but which parts?
<gnomefreak> why not?
<asac> gnomefreak: its also removed completeyl
<gnomefreak> ah i see
<asac> i think he referred to the lp- xpi export as being useless
<asac> the extension packaging xpi.mk is probably considered useful
<asac> then the orig stuff might be too
<gnomefreak> well since they dont use Lp i would think so
<asac> but i think debian folks would like to maintain the hooks in the package rules files instead of updating mozclient for lets say iceweasel
<asac> so once thats possible (??) we could suggests them to take a look
<fta> it is possible now, ~ 0.11
<asac> fta: could we migrate packages to use that? i mean, shouldnt that be the default modus-of-operation?
<fta> i'm already using it that way in xul-explorer and instantbird
<asac> is there anthing that would hinder us to use that in firefox/xulrunner?
<asac> or tbird?
<fta> nothing is preventing that
<asac> fta: ok lets ask different: why don't we do it? what do we win from shipping those hooks in the mozclient instead of in the packages?
<asac> ( i dont suggest that we should migrate it ... just want to understand the pros and cons)
<fta> just that in the past, it was not possible, now it is
<fta> otherwise, it's the same
<asac> fta: ok. we should look at how "comprehensive" that is usable and if we can polish the API a bit to make it more attractive for debian
<asac> otherwise should be fine i think
<asac> thanks
<fta> it may be even better as we could have different confs for a given package, one per branch
<asac> yeah. it definitly helps
<asac> especially now that we do branding stuff in the orig generation
<asac> e.g. otherwise we cannot easily rename the branding branch from awesome branding now in jaunty
<asac> because the intrepid package needs the other ;)
<asac> ok cool. then lets
<fta> yes
<asac> [ACTION] review packages and how we can make mozclient confs in the packaging itself
<asac> ok i think thats for the review of action items ;)
<asac> gnomefreak: your turn :)
<gnomefreak> my turn?
<asac> [TOPIC] " Any ideas for Jaunty eg: Firefox-3.1 added to repos along with 3.0
<asac> 	
<gnomefreak> sorry hitting self
<asac> gnomefreak: ^^
<asac> gnomefreak: your agenda item ;)
<gnomefreak> we cant do anything with that yet
<fta> i have a bunch of packages waiting
<fta> fennec firefox-3.1/firefox-3.1-qt flock instantbird seamonkey-2.0 songbird thunderbird-3.0 xul-explorer xulrunner-1.9.1/xulrunner-1.9.1-qt
<gnomefreak> i have extensions waiting and one to fix
<asac> fta: we should really rename flock
<fta> agreed, flock -> out
<gnomefreak> i like flock :(
<asac> i am scared by their tradmark policy
<gnomefreak> flock in free
<asac> can be shipped in multiverse ... if at all
<gnomefreak> sortof like sunbird
<asac> but usually folks dont liek to put work in multiverse work ;)
<asac> ok so:
<gnomefreak> why cant we whip it in universe?
<gnomefreak> s/whip/ship
<asac> gnomefreak: because trademark policy sucks
<fta> i'm no longer interested to work on it either, it's not free in my own terms
<asac> we have to take care that nobody touches the package except those that talk to flock devs and stuff
<asac> fta: it could be ice* branded ;)
<asac> (not that i am encouraging that kind of move to resolve such thins)
<gnomefreak> we should really use something other than ice
<asac> but i expect that nobody would do that buntil its much more popular
<asac> ok so mozillateam jaunty roadmap has a bunch of
<asac> NEWPACKAGES: fennec firefox-3.1/-qt, instantbird, seamonkey-2.0 songbird, thunderbird-3.0 xul-explorer, xulrunner-1.9.1
<fta> asac, maybe (ice*). we could ask jcastro's help to be a mediator
<asac> i also think we have to redo enigmail
<asac> that will kill us at some point ;)
<asac> fta: for flock? maybe
<fta> yep, flock
<gnomefreak> enigmail has to be fixed if we ship tbird-3.0* in any archive
<asac> fta: we could ask ncommandor to maintain a ice-fork in debian for now and we sync from there ;)
<asac> ice-lock ;)
<asac> gnomefreak: yeah. enigmail needs to be updated
<fta> not sure about songbird, there's an eula and now the license in bugzilla for patches
<Volans-> Hi all, just arrived to home
<gnomefreak> hi Volans-
<asac> i Volans- !
<asac> fta: ok so
<fta> hi Volans-
<asac> [ACTION] decide on the fate of songbird in ubuntu
<fta> ok
<fta> they are close to 1.0 now
<gnomefreak> do we really want to use ice*?
<gnomefreak> i would rather ship songbird than another browser
<asac> gnomefreak: thats just an example. if we maintain stuff in debian through ncommander that might make sense. but if we go ubuntu alone we shouldnt use that
<fta> gnomefreak, not for songbird, but for flock, maybe
<asac> so anything else important in jaunty?
<asac> personally i think we should aggressively forward patches
<asac> and also more aggressively forward bug
<asac> s
<fta> to where?
<asac> [reed] asked us to do that multiple times i think .... but well.
<asac> fta: to bugzilla ,)
<fta> to moz, i agree
<fta> most of the patches pending are yours
<asac> true
<asac> gnomefreak: would you be willing to subscribe to the bugs that i forward and remind me to follow up there when there are questions?
<asac> :)
<gnomefreak> yeah i should already be subscribed arnt i?
<asac> gnomefreak: in bugzilla?
<gnomefreak> on no im not there
<asac> gnomefreak: do you have an account there?
<gnomefreak> asac: can you work up a list?
<gnomefreak> asac: yes
<asac> gnomefreak: i think you should be able to watch me there
<asac> in preferences ... you could then follow conversations that i am involved in and such ;)
<asac> gnomefreak: ok cool
<gnomefreak> ill look
<asac> [ACTION] asac to forward every patch that isnt really ubuntu specific
<asac> [ACTION] asac to talk with bdmurray about forwarding ubuntu bugs again
<fta> what should we do about the qt port in 3.1?
<fta> i proposed something weeks ago in the wiki
<asac> fta: does it work?
<fta> it did, but i'm not a kde user, so i lost track
<asac> fta: where is taht wiki thing?
<fta> i was talking about convergence in one package
<asac> Volans-: still there? next item would be about extension sync stuff ;) (just when you are about to bail out  because of boredom ;))
<fta> asac, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/QT
<Volans-> I'm there and sorry for being inactive in the last weeks, I have started a now job and unfortunately I'm really busy
<Volans-> (and in the last 2 days I'm trying to reboot my laptop after the intrepid upgrade, with the new kernel it wan't boot ;))
<asac> Volans-: no problem :) i the meeting item isjust  about reviewing state ;
 * gnomefreak broke all kinds of crap testing update-mamager
<gnomefreak> im not seeing a way to follow you
<asac> fta: why are the icons and stuff in -gtk?
<asac> don't we need a -common ... or -chrome package?
<asac> and why does gtk need a filepicker, but qt not?
<asac> does gtk actually need that still?
<fta> maybe a bug upstream
<gnomefreak> ill be back in a bit
<asac> fta: ok
<fta> asac, it sure needs more work. it was just a one time experiment
<asac> fta: i think thats a reasonable approach. only thing i dont see is: why do we need two firefox packages?
<asac> imo one should work just fine
<asac> otherwise we need to file bugs upstream for sure
<fta> asac, maybe.. but depends need tweaks then
<asac> fta: do you have a xul branch that builds those packages somewhere?
<asac> fta: thats ok
<fta> i do have branches somewhere, if not on lp
<asac> fta: even though it most likely would just depend on xulrunner-1.9.1 ...
<fta> configure is evil and wants everything in ff, even with lib-xulsdk
<asac> [ACTION] get qt/gtk split done on experimental 1.9.1 branches
<asac> [ACTION] investigate how firefox can be built in gtk/qt independent fashion
<asac> anything else for initial jaunty discussion?
<asac> ok lets move on
<fta> the <video> tag
<asac> ok rewind
<asac> fta: whats up with video tag=?
<asac> isn't that officially supported upstrewam? if thats the case i dont see how we can not support it ;)
<fta> i feel worried about even more pulseaudio troubles
<fta> yes, it is on by default upstream
<asac> fta: isnt pulseaudio ok as long as alsa isnt used to speak to it?
<fta> for me, it comes and goes
<fta> it's broken at the moment, while upstream said pulseaudio is now supported
<asac> ok. anyway. i think our goal should be to have that enabled. if its possible to put that in a separate component we
<asac> might be able to make a separate package out of it, which users can uninstall if they experience too much troubles
<asac> ok next topic :)
<asac> [TOPIC] Review of Auto Extension Scripts
<asac> Volans-: ^^ :)
<Volans-> asac:  :)
<asac> Volans-: basically why i am so happy that you are here is:
<asac> you can tell us what currently works and what not ... we can then see what the next steps are
<asac> whether you can do them isnt that important then i hope
<asac> Volans-: could you post the links of the current scripts?
<fta> a page in the wiki would be nice
<asac> yeah. in worst case these meeting minutes would have the minimum
<fta> i have lost track of this :(
<asac> lets put the bar low for now ;)
<Volans-> sure, let me find it out, I'm not on my laptop as I have say above
<asac> fta: right. thats why i want to look now so we are all on top again ;)
<asac> gnomefreak: you too ;)
<Volans-> https://code.launchpad.net/~volans/firefox-extensions/med-auto-scripts
<Volans-> here I have uploaded some scripts, but maybe in my laptop there is some more newer versione not pushed yet
<asac> ok so if i remember correctly Volans- implemented a bunch of low level operations
<asac> that we could orchestrate in a higher level script (like a cron script)
<Volans-> exacltly asac , if you want I can explain a little them
<asac> yes ... maybe lets go script by script ;)
<asac> i think everything starts with mirror-xpi.sh
<Volans-> sure! all of it have a comment at the begin that explain a little what are the parameter and what the script do
<Volans-> the only one that is not "low level" is the master-example.sh
<asac> whats that supposed to do?
<Volans-> that is the script I have used to test all the other script in sequence
<asac> i think nthats the only script i havent heard of before ,)
<asac> ok is that the order those are supposed to run?
<asac> or just some random test order?
<Volans-> the logical order
<Volans-> a sort of a simple higher level script
<Volans-> just for testing purposes at the moment
<asac> it uses a ext.list file
<asac> is there an example file for that?
<asac> e.g AMO_BRANCHES_FILE="ext.list"
<Volans-> is explained in the initial comment:
<Volans-> # The AMO_BRANCHES_FILE should contain a list of addons to be 16
<Volans-> # processed and must have this syntax:
<Volans-> # BRANCH_NAME AMO_ID [SOURCE_PACKAGE_NAME]
<asac> ok
<asac> so i see it goes and then mirrors all xpis from the ftp i guess
<Volans-> is just a list
 * gnomefreak came back at wrong time
<asac> then it branches the branches and gets the rdf version
<asac> from the current branch
<asac> and afterthat gets a sorted list of extensions that need to be imported now
<asac> right?
<Volans-> right
<Volans-> there was the question of how to get the rdf version
<asac> ok ... from there it should be quite simple. for each version use med-xpi-unpack to unpack it in the .usptream branch
<asac> and commit that
<asac> with the version gathered from the unpackaged xpi using the et-install-rdf-version.sh
<asac> script
<Volans-> asac: for a more in-depth description see my 2 emails (Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:13 AM and  Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:42 AM)
<asac> Volans-: did those go to mailing list too?
<gnomefreak> to/from where?
<gnomefreak> i never saw them
<fta> use the wiki
<Volans-> no, there was directly to you because in that days I have talked to you in channell and sent to you some test results
<asac> fta: well wiki alone doesnt attract attention
<asac> Volans-: ah ok
<Volans-> that where only preliminary in my mind :)
<asac> Volans-: VERSION=`bash get-install-rdf-version.sh ${BRANCHES_DIR}/${AMO_ID}/${AMO_BRANCHES[${AMO_ID}]}.ubuntu 2>> ${LOG_FILE}`
<asac> shouldnt that check the version on the .upstream branch?
<asac> and not .ubuntu?
<asac> i mean we only want versions that are higher than what is alread imported in .upstream i guess
<Volans-> sure, was for testing purposes only because most of the extension doesn't have the .ubuntu braches
<asac> Volans-: you mean .upstream branch ;)
<Volans-> sorry, .upstream
<asac> ok right
<Volans-> but many have the .ubuntu
<asac> someone should take care that we have .upstream for all extensions that use med-xpi format
<Volans-> exactly!
<asac> [ACTION] ensure that all extensions have upstreawm branch
<asac> [ACTION] asac or Volans to finish master example script to actually import things to .upstream branches
<gnomefreak> all extensions should have both anyway
<asac> gnomefreak: yeah. but those that have med-xpi format can be supported by the auto importer for now
<asac> gnomefreak: so they are more important in this regards
<gnomefreak> :(
<asac> gnomefreak: :( ?
<gnomefreak> that means all but firgpg in my batch
<asac> gnomefreak: haha ... well. thats good
<asac> everything that can be auto imported will have less work in the future
<asac> ok
<gnomefreak> not really since firegpg is the biggest thorjn
<gnomefreak> works for me lets se how it plays out
<asac> i think thats it for that topic
<asac> thanks to Volans- for his work so far ;)
<Volans-> I want just to explain a point in the get-new-imports.sh
<gnomefreak> Volans-: thanks ;)
<Volans-> for the newer version in the ftp xpi
<asac> Volans-: sure. go ahead
<Volans-> because there are so many versioning syntax I have tried some solution and the best and quick one that I have choosed is
<asac> Volans-: couldnt we write a proper version comparison?
<asac> i mean the exact implementation for the upstream version scheme?
<Volans-> i mean for the extension version
<Volans-> every extension use a different schema
<Volans-> as I have see in the tests
<asac> Volans-: well ... but the order is still defined
<asac> Volans-: everything uses the mozilla versioning scheme
<asac> if they dont thats a big bug
<Volans-> sure, but not always numerical or alphabetical order ;9
<asac> Volans-: right. thats why i wondered if we couldnt come up with a real compare function for that
<Volans-> some have changed in the time the versioning or splitted the TB and FF version or so
<asac> most likely there is perl snippet somewhere or a cpp snippet ;)
<asac> Volans-: ok. so what did you do about it for now?
<Volans-> asac: you have talked about to use the FF versioning tool that recognize the extensions in the addon manager
<Volans-> at the moment I bring the actual ubuntu .ubuntu (.upstream in future) version
<Volans-> search in the mirrored fto
<Volans-> *ftp
<Volans-> for the same version, search for the datetime of the last modified file
<asac> i really find that scary
<Volans-> and compare it in the other xpi
<asac> i mean when the ftp server chokes everything will fall apart
<asac> e.g. if someone touches recursively or just uses cp -r next time things get reorganized
<Volans-> no I search inside the XPI and not the datetime of the xpi
<asac> hmm
<asac> interesting approach
<Volans-> LAST_MODIFIED=`zipinfo -T ${XPI_FILE} | sort -nr -k 7 | head -n 1 | sed s/' \+'/' '/g | cut -d " " -f7 | sed s/'\.'/''/`
<Volans-> this is the line
<asac> ok i think we can start that way for now
<asac> but we should definitly try to keep this done in an abstraction layer
<Volans-> line 116 of get-new-imports.sh
<Volans-> sure!
<asac> Volans-: e.g. we should put that code in a compare_xpi_version that spits out -1 0 1
<asac> or something
<asac> is that done in a function?
<asac> that should be good enough
<Volans-> with my tests this approach remove some false positive that I have found with other approcheas
<Volans-> but surely a real comparison function should be better ;)
<asac> Volans-: hmm. i think we should really move that somehow in a more higher level function called compare_xpi_trees
<asac> to allow us to change that in future wihtout much refactoring
<asac> [ACTION] refactor get-new-imports to contain a better abstraction for comparing xpi tree versions
 * gnomefreak goes for smoke
<asac> ok together with the other actions this should be a good next step ;)
<asac> anyone still awake?
<asac> fta: ?
<Volans-> actual the get-new-imports search in the mirrored directory for all the xpi with a version newer than the actual ubuntu one and return the filename of the newer ones iirc
<asac> ;)
<fta> er..
<asac> Volans-: yeah. but if we make an abstract function compare_xpi_tree_version <xpi-tree1> <xpi-tree2> ... that should work, shhouldnt it?
<Volans-> what do you mean with xpi-tree?
<asac> Volans-: well either .xpi or unpackaged xpi
<Volans-> ok
<Volans-> atm I never extract all the xpi, I use zipgrep and zipinfo
<asac> fta: we can move the last agenda item to #ubuntu-mozillatem at later time i guess ("security support for universe stuff")
<fta> ok
<Volans-> and check for both syntax version: <em:version>.*</em:version> AND em:version=\".*\"
<asac> Volans-: well, whatever
<asac> sure
<asac> Volans-: but since you dont use version here, you need more than the version for that function ;)
<fta> Volans-, you'd be surprised, it's often multiline, or using variables, or include files, etc..
<Volans-> multine I know when is declared also in the language blocks in the rdf files... for the inclusion, no I never see that case :)
<Volans-> *multiline
<fta> asac, 1h30 already
<asac> yeh
<asac> ok
<asac> so any other business?
<fta> i'm done
<Volans-> not for me
<asac> ok then lets finish ;)
<asac> was long enough for the short agenda ;)
<fta> yeah
 * gnomefreak goes to figure out what is going wrong
<asac> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-26
<kirkland> o/
<zul> heylo
<kirkland> zul: what's up dood!
 * mathiaz waves
<alexm> o/
<zul> kirkland: trying to stop the ringing in my ears liam has offically reached the terrible twos
<kirkland> zul: turn the metallica up louder!
<ttx> o/
<soren> o/
<sommer> o//
<zul> kirkland: well he listent to NIN  going to bed
<zul> kirkland: http://rockabyebabymusic.com/
<zul> anyways
<mdz> \o
<mdz> mathiaz, smoser, ping
<smoser> here
<mathiaz> /o/
<mdz> great
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> ttx, my browser is acting up, do you have the agenda in front of you?
<ttx> yes
<mdz> ah, working now
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<mdz> [topic] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20091020
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20091020
<mdz> ACTION: kirkland to adapt help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<kirkland> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/VirtManager
<mdz> kirkland, done?
<kirkland> mdz: the VirtManager piece is pretty well done
<kirkland> mdz: i could add a similar page for Virsh
<kirkland> mdz: you can leave that action with me
<mdz> kirkland, iirc what we wanted was to make sure that general recipes which used virtualization used libvirt tools instead of bare KVM
<kirkland> mdz: i'll get an equivalent virsh page up too
<mdz> ok, carried over
<mdz> [action] kirkland to adapt help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to adapt help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<mdz> ACTION: mathiaz to add test case for image store in testcases wiki
<mathiaz> mdz: done
<kirkland> mdz: hmm, yes, well, i did rework some of that documentation, but i feel that the command line stuff is valuable too
<mdz> mathiaz, great, thanks
<mdz> ACTION: zul to write up server upgrade test case
<zul> done
<mathiaz> mdz: http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/System/UECImageStore
<mdz> zul, we discussed expanding it last week, is that also done?
<soren> zul: Where can I see this?
<mdz> [link] http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ServerUpgrade
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ServerUpgrade
<mdz> soren, ^^
<zul> mdz: yes I asked the user to install the lamp and openssh tasksel before upgrading
<mdz> zul, I don't see that on the page
<zul> mdz: grr..
<mdz> ACTION: nurmi to investigate bug 455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<ttx> no news on that, note that the reporter failed to reproduce it on further testing. Anyone in the team testing long-running instances ?
<zul> mdz: i need to bug ara then
 * ttx only has one UEC setup and can't use it for that
<mdz> nurmi, are you here?
<soren> nurmi: It's quite early for him.
<mdz> ACTION: soren to complete demo virtual appliance
<soren> $ TZ=America/Los_Angeles date
<soren> man okt 26 07:08:43 PDT 2009
<mdz> soren, ah, right, I'm not sure randa took him into account when scheduling this meeting
<mdz> soren, demo appliance?
<jsalisbury> ttx:  I've been unable to reproduce after a week.
<ttx> jsalisbury: not sure its good news or bad news
<kirkland> ttx: and my issue was different
<mdz> we talked with nurmi about it on the phone last week
<mdz> no one has been able to reproduce it
<soren> mdz: right.
<mdz> I think we can safely reduce the importance
<soren> I pushed out a mediawiki based appliance last week.
<soren> It's available in the image store in the UEC console.
<mdz> can you mention the URL here?
<ttx> mdz: doen already
<ttx> done, even
<mdz> ttx, thank you
<soren> People have tested it, and it seems to work as expected.
<soren> There's still a few warts (the URL, the logo, and a few other tidbits), but as a proof-of-concept, it's ok.
<soren> I'll be fixing up as much as I can before release.
<mathiaz> soren: did you produce an amd64 version of the appliance as well?
<mdz> soren, ttx had a problem getting it working; has that been resolved?
<soren> mathiaz: No.
<ttx> mdz: my fault
<mdz> he mentioned it in the thread on ubuntu-devel
<soren> mdz: I'll let him talk himself out of that one :)
<mdz> pilot error? ;-)
<ttx> mdz: I rebundled it today and it worked
<mdz> ok, moving on then
<mdz> ACTION: mdz to chase down details on production image store
<mathiaz> mdz: it's up and running now
<mdz> followed up on this by email, the production store is now live
<ttx> mdz: well, maybe a eucalyptus bug when reregistering multiple times the exact same filenames
<mdz> mathiaz, has it been tested with the final 9.10 eucalyptus bits?
<mathiaz> mdz: I've been able to conduct a successfull test
<mathiaz> mdz: yes
<mdz> mathiaz, excellent, thank you
<mdz> that takes care of the next action
<mdz> ACTION: mathiaz to test UEC integration with production image store
<mdz> and I think that's all
<ttx> I tested that as well, its pretty neat.
<mdz> [topic] Karmic release last actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic release last actions
<mdz> ttx, can you guide us through this one?
<ttx> sure
<mdz> I wasn't able to attend the meeting on friday so I am a bit out of th eloop
<ttx> just a review of the remaining things for this week
<ttx> the biggest part is the UEC image sfix
<ttx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/458850
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458850 in ec2-init "UEC images do not mount ephemeral disk on /mnt at boot" [High,In progress]
<mdz> smoser, update
<mdz> ?
<soren> Is he here?
<ttx> After discussing with eriuc Hammond, it appears that the ephemeral disk automounted is a classic expectation of an EC2 user
<smoser> i've not made much progress on this, only jsut got through mail and stuff this morning.
<ttx> so even if it's presented by Eucalyptus in a wrong way, we shoudl work around it in the instance
<smoser> my plan is to modify vmbuilder to not write that entry in /etc/fstab
<soren> smoser: How would we mount it, then?
<soren> ttx: Why do we not consider this a Eucalyptus bug?
<smoser> and to have ec2-init modify /etc/fstab "once per ami" (ie on first boot), attempting to make sure that there is no existing entry before doing so
<ttx> soren: we do, but its safer to fix it in the instance
<soren> I see.
<smoser> the issue is that the ephemeral storage is not consistently named.
<smoser> on ec2, we got away with one /etc/fstab written for amd64, and one for i386
<soren> Between i386 and amd64, you mean?
<mdz> smoser, is this feasible to fix in the final 9.10 image or no?
<ttx> We would fix https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/458576 in the same run
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458576 in ec2-init "ec2: ssh public key fingerprint in console output does not match EC2 standards" [Low,In progress]
<smoser> mdz, i'd like some time to look at it further before stating one way or another.
<mdz> soren, on EC2, they're different on i386 and amd64, and then they're also different in Eucalyptus
<mdz> smoser, ok, can you follow up later today by email and let me know?
<mdz> (CC thierry)
<smoser> it definitely requires a change in how we've been doing things before.
<soren> mdz: Right, I was just curious if they were more inconsistent than that. I mean... They're consistent on i386 and on amd64, just not between the two.
<mdz> smoser, I'm sure I don't need to remind you that known bugs are preferable to unknown bugs at this point ;-)
<mdz> ttx, anything else?
<ttx> ok, any other release-critical issue on our plate ?
<smoser> soren, i will look at the default settings. in uec, it is configurable
<ttx> I don't think we have...
<soren> smoser: It's configurable?
<ttx> Next is ISO testing
<mathiaz> ttx: did anyone test UEC on i386?
<smoser> although i'm not sure if the first disk will always come up in a consistent location on a per-arch basis.
<soren> smoser: Why do we not just change the default configuration then? That seems a whole lot safer than introducing new code?
<ttx> mathiaz: I ran the tests
<ttx> a 20091026 candidate is now up
<smoser> soren, you can configure how many disks you get (and what size they are). i'm not sure if you can configure what partition they appear as
<mathiaz> ttx: ok - I installed an i386 cloud on my two laptops on friday and it wasn't working at all
<ttx> we should all know our part in that play now
<smoser> which is the issue... well, actually on ec2 they're not a partition at all, on UEC they are (or vice versa, have to look)
<mathiaz> ttx: I switched to amd64 and all was great
<ttx> mathiaz: lets discuss that after the meeting
<mathiaz> ttx: ok
<smoser> anyway, the other thing on my plate is bug 458576 which has a fix ready to go
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458576 in ec2-init "ec2: ssh public key fingerprint in console output does not match EC2 standards" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458576
<ttx> on the "Release Notes" side
<ttx> We have the following bugs proposed:
<ttx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-release-notes/+bug/459101
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459101 in eucalyptus "Relay denied from eucalyptus registration emails - source address is wrong." [Medium,Won't fix]
<ttx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-release-notes/+bug/444352
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 444352 in eucalyptus "DB deadlock on reboot prevents UEC from working, temporarily" [Low,Won't fix]
<ttx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-release-notes/+bug/458163
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458163 in powernap "[regression] euca_rootwrap fixes affected eucalyptus power management (powerwake)" [High,Fix released]
<ttx> kirkland: ^ that one is no longer needed, right ?
<kirkland> ttx: correct
<ttx> if you have other suggestions please let everyone know
<kirkland> ttx: it appears that the powernap fix was accepted
<kirkland> ttx: i tested that all weekend long
<ttx> kirkland: could you invalidate the ubuntu-release-notes task on that bug ?
<kirkland> ttx: with my UEC starting/stopping instances at random, putting my cloud hardware to sleep, and waking it up
<kirkland> ttx: sure
<ttx> anything else you think should be release notes material at this point ?
<ttx> Any other thing we should take care before release ?
<kirkland> ttx: hmm, i'll peruse the bugs, and mention to you in #ubuntu-server anything else UEC-related that I think is worth release-noting
<ttx> kirkland: sounds good
<ttx> In related news, we should take some time to help on https://launchpad.net/bugs/457767 where we can
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457767 in debian-installer "karmic: iSCSI root: boot hangs on starting iscsid" [High,Confirmed]
<ttx> thanks to mathiaz for his analysis and reproduction recipes
<mdz> pgraner has asked the kernel team to help with this, and update the bug
<mdz> given it sounds like a kernel problem, it seems too late to fix
<ttx> yes, it looks pretty low-level
<mdz> ttx, so we need to update the documentation, right?
<ttx> mdz: that'sthe fallback plan, yes
<mdz> I've made a note to do a retrospective on it as well, to understand what went wrong and learn from it
<mdz> ttx, anything else for 9.10?
<ttx> n othing from me
<mdz> anyone else?
<mdz> ok
<mdz> ttx, do you think we need to do the roadmap review, or shall we start talking about 10.04 instead?
<ttx> talking about 10.04 sounds good
<mdz> [topic] Progress on 9.10 roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Progress on 9.10 roadmap
<mdz> I think the only outstanding item would be the image store, but it sounds like that is done now per mathiaz
<mdz> soren is going to continue working on a persistent appliance, but that can trail 9.10 if necessary
<mdz> [topic] Lucid Lynx
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Lynx
<mdz> so we have received some requirements from Canonical stakeholders
<mdz> and are expecting some more to come in yet
<mdz> (they're late)
<mdz> we're likely to have items in the same broad categories as 9.10: UEC, EC2, appliances, enterprise deployment items
<mdz> but we will aim to focus on stabilization
<mdz> and negotiate our commitments with regard to that
<kirkland> mdz: is there anything that will fundamentally allow (force) us to focus on stabilization?
<mdz> I also have a few notes here for small things which I think are worth looking at in a 10.04 context
<ttx> there are also some cleanup tasks, i.e. try to get rid of things we don't want to do LTS support for
<kirkland> mdz: as opposed to being hyper-feature driven?
<mdz> kirkland, yes, we've got agreement on a general plan for LTS which includes that explicitly
<mdz> signed off
<mdz> so I'd like to hear from all of you what you're thinking about for 10.04
<soren> Automatic testing.
<soren> Lots and lots and lots of automated testing.
<mathiaz> Automatic package testing
<smoser> +1 on automatic testing (ec2 based)
<zul> stablization/qa
<mathiaz> More than lots and lots lots *and* *lots* of automated testing.
<soren> I've got a bunch of things I'd like to improve in VMBuilder.
<soren> mathiaz: Oh! /me concurs
<zul> mathiaz: ditto
<soren> mathiaz: I like your style.
<ttx> Likewise 5.4 convergence, if that still falls on our plate
<mdz> marjo and I have talked about this a bit
<mdz> and we'll have some more QA resource to help with this
<kirkland> reining in our bug lists, triaging, bugfixing, similar to the blitzes we made on eucalyptus in the last few weeks
<smoser> there are 2 things that i'd like to investigate with regard to ec2: a.) making ec2 boot much more hookable, allowing user to completley take control via user-data.
<kirkland> but attacking that (as a team) on some of our other critical server packages
<mdz> smoser, we talked about seeing if we could eliminate the ramdisk on EC2
<kirkland> with 2 or more people triaging bugs, reproducing, testing, and fixing
<soren> mdz: The ramdisk? /dev/shm?
<mdz> smoser, and I think we should provide a standard means to install updates at boot, along the lines of unattended-upgrades
<mdz> soren, the initrd
<smoser> b.) other cloud offerings (ie rackspace).
<zul> i like to see some apport hooks for some server packages
<soren> mdz: Ah, right.
<mdz> kirkland, I think we should look at auto-registration of decentralized eucalyptus
<soren> smoser: Big +1 on b)
<mdz> e.g. auto-registering a walrus on a remote host
<mdz> I think that should be reasonably contained in scope
<kirkland> what about live migration?
<kirkland> of vm's
<soren> smoser: Also on the rackspace part. It's a small, nice, and clean API.
<mdz> kirkland, that's dependent on upstream
<smoser> mdz, regarding standard updates , i agree. regarding ramdisk... we can investigate it.  There are things I would like to do in the ramdisk (as part of 'a' above). i like ramdisks (i know that isn't popular opinion)
 * soren likes ramdisks as well
<mdz> smoser, no pressure, just a reminder that it's something we wanted to revisit. may or may not turn out to be the best course
<mdz> we have some requirements around development and deployment of Java applications
<smoser> soren, the issue with "multi-cloud" is just resources... trying to separate "generic cloud" from from "cloud specific", i only fear that it could result in less quality in UEC/ec2.
<mathiaz> now that puppet is in main, I'd like to investigate better integration in the installer
<mdz> much more concrete than what we've discussed in the past
<mathiaz> and may be integration with UEC
<mdz> mathiaz, ok
<soren> mathiaz: puppet is in main?
<mathiaz> soren: yes
<soren> Wow. I didn't know.
<mdz> (this is just a brainstorming session, please feel free to mention anything you're thinking about without worrying about whether it's doable or a good idea yet)
<ttx> mdz: should we think about it and come up with a wikipage of 10.04 projects ?
<mdz> ttx, yes, this is just to get the conversation started
<soren> I'd like to spend a bit of time on OpenNebula again.
<mathiaz> soren: this cyle - thanks to zul MIR work
<mdz> ttx, maybe you could create that page and start organizing these ideas?
<ttx> mdz: sure, action me
<mdz> soren, that's worth looking at
<soren> I think it's a shame it didn't get any attention at all this release. It's really a wonderful tool.
<mdz> [action] ttx to create wiki page for 10.04 input from server team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to create wiki page for 10.04 input from server team
<soren> it also provides an implementation of the OCCI cloud API.
<zul> soren: it did ;)
<kirkland> mdz: i'd like to write a live-migrate-to-encrypted-home and recover-my-encrypted-home-from-a-live-cd pair of scripts; i have recipes in my blog; would be nice to get these into ecryptfs-utils and available on the LiveCD
 * ttx wanted to properly package openvpn's easy-rsa (or provide another easy-pki option)
<soren> zul: opennebula did?
<soren> cobbler!
<zul> soren: oh i thought you were talking about puppet,
<soren> Well... It'd like cobbler in Ubuntu. I'm nt sure I want to work on it myself :)
<zul> soren: I noticed that opennebula is on the motu ftbfs list
<ttx> there is also lots of not-so-funny work to do on eucalyptus java dependencies, to clean them up *more*
 * soren types very poorly today due to network lag :(
<kirkland> mdz: i'm also planning on proposing yet again places where I think byobu would make a for some really nice branding and differentiation between Ubuntu and other linux servers
<mathiaz> ttx: yes - an easy pki would be great
<soren> zul: ah, thanks for pointing that out.
<mdz> kirkland, ok, sounds good
<ttx> mathiaz: at this point people are using easy-rsa from /usr/share/examples and its not working out of the box
<kirkland> mdz: namely, in environments where running detached is the expectation (cloud VMs), and places where recovering from crashes would benefit from a screen session (the terminal on the Ubuntu desktop)
<zul> mdz: calendaring has always been a big request from corporate users
 * ttx wanted to integrate etckeeper more but tha's a lot of work
<mathiaz> there is also some integration work to be done on the identity mgmt front - with openldap+krb5 integration
<ttx> also might conflict with mathiaz's puppet efforts
<mathiaz> ttx: well - not really - I can think of nice point of integration
<mathiaz> ttx: put VCS in puppet+dpkg conffile+etckeeper
<mdz> any ideas for the desktop or UNR?
<zul> make likewise better?
<kirkland> i think we should look at better ways of building and distributing vm appliances
<mathiaz> mdz: there is the login experience - for corporate environement
<kirkland> in contrast to the monolithic, stale, tarball approach
<mathiaz> mdz: how does gdm scale with 10000 of users in a corporte environement
<ttx> domain logging in gdm, yes
<mdz> zul, it's on my list to establish some concrete user stories for likewise, i.e. decide what's most important for people to be able to do with it. then we'll know what to optimize for
<mdz> mathiaz, ok
<kirkland> i think it would be interesting to team with the Mobile guys and produce an Ubuntu Server ARM image
<kirkland> as a subset of the UNR ARM work
 * soren is still waiting for hardware for that
<ttx> mdz: put a ubuntu desktop in a corporate AD environment and make it behave correctly (i.e. not force you to type MYAD\johndoe as the username)
<soren> I want more stuff to Just Work.
<ttx> soren +1
<soren> Simple as that.
<zul> i want things to suck less
<ttx> I think a critical review of how things should work
<soren> We ship a /lot/ of stuff with default configurations we don't expect anyone to use.
<ttx> and try to reach that point
<mdz> soren, for example?
<soren> mdz: Mail server stack, for instance.
<kirkland> pulse audio
<mdz> kirkland, that's actually working great for me in 9.10
<mdz> and for rickspencer3
<kirkland> mdz: pulse audio + KVM
<soren> mdz: They use /etc/passwd as their userdb by default, but for anything other than the smallest of installations, we expect people to use something else.
<mdz> kirkland, ah
<kirkland> mdz: pulse audio + KVM + libvirt
<soren> ...instead, make them use something else by default and make sure it's as easy (or even easier) to use even for the people who don't need something big and fancy like an LDAP directory.
<kirkland> mdz: i'm not sure yet where the bugs are, but they're somewhere in that complex stack
<mdz> soren, like SASL?
<soren> mdz: Yes, postfix should automatically speak sasl to dovecot.
<mdz> does anyone have bugs in mind that they would especially like to plan to fix in lucid?
<soren> and dovecot should use LDAP by default.
<soren> bug #1?
<ubottu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)
<mathiaz> soren: and kerberos for authentication
<soren> mathiaz: Quite probably, yes.
<mathiaz> soren: with a nice user+group mgmt interface
<mdz> soren, in 10.04 ;-)
<soren> mdz: Hmm... right, point :)
<soren> I've been ranting and raving about this for years, and got worked up again :)
<zul> hehe
<mdz> kirkland, should we try to do better than the 9.10 solution on euca_rootwrap?
<soren> For 10.10, then. :)
<kirkland> mdz: perhaps, using capabilities
 * soren has not dared actually look at euca_rootwrap.
<kirkland> mdz: although, the configurable rootwrap solution is pretty good
<mdz> soren, linux is not so far off from windows in market share on the server ;-)
<soren> I'm just trying to make my /own/ life easier. :)
<soren> Hopefully, in doing so, I make everyone else's life easier as well and gain total world domination.
<soren> Or something.
<alexm> i guess that having VMs for HA would fall under the migration field, isn't it?
<soren> I need to work out the details of that.
<ttx> Braindump ground : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/LucidIdeaPool
<alexm> i.e. meaning that it also depends on upstream
<mdz> ok, thanks for the input
<mathiaz> soren: world domination? the devil is in the details ;)
<mdz> please feel free to keep working on the wiki page as things come to mind
<mdz> the assigned bug list is in OK shape, I've been reviewing it in our 1:1s
<soren> mathiaz: Yeah, I'm assuming this will just sort of happen along the way somehow :)
<mdz> [topic] weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> any bugs worth looking at for an SRU ^^?
<zul> bug 374537
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 374537 in munin "Munin-node have a empty /etc/munin/plugins folder" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/374537
<zul> thats it from me
<mathiaz> zul: seems like worth for SRU
<mathiaz> ttx: anything else?
<mathiaz> the nomination lists for hardy/intrepid/jaunty/dapper are empty
<ttx> mathiaz: nothing from me
<mdz> ok
<mdz> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mdz> anything else?
<kirkland> the new time slot ...
<ttx> I wanted to ask about TriageDays
<ttx> is it going ok for everyone
<mdz> does everyone have a 9.10 release party to go to?
<zul> ttx: yap
<soren> Nope.
<ttx> mdz: no.
<mdz> kirkland, this time slot is this week only; AIUI it's different from next week on
<mathiaz> ttx: :(
<zul> mdz: i was going to montreal but its not at a good time
<kirkland> when this moves back to Wednesday, and the time changes, this hour is going to be bad for me, as it conflicts with my weekly marathon training run
<mdz> ttx, oh dear
<alexm> mdz: sure
<mdz> I highly recommend lining up a release party...it's a good dose of positive vibes to start off the next cycle
<soren> ttx: Uh... I honestly forgot about my TriageDay.
<kirkland> http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/10/austins-karmic-release-party.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/10/austins-karmic-release-party.html
<mathiaz> mdz: totally - and get free beer the whole night
<mdz> mathiaz, well, not usually, but sometimes ;-)
<alexm> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CatalanTeam/KarmicKoala
<ttx> soren: I know, I've been covering up for you
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CatalanTeam/KarmicKoala
<soren> ttx: I guess thanks are in order. You must have picked up my slack the following day :)
<soren> ttx: Good deal :)
<mdz> ttx, soren, do we need to put some reminder system in place? perhaps google calendar?
<smoser> i have release party and i can walk home.
<mathiaz> ttx: triage day are working great IMO
<mdz> smoser, nice one
<mathiaz> zul: thanks for catching on the backlog
<kirkland> mdz: so the timeslot on wednesday will be a problem for me, when it moves back to Wednesday, and Daylight Savings time comes
<zul> mathiaz: np
<mdz> kirkland, please speak to maria
<kirkland> mdz: okay
<soren> mdz: I've just added it to my calendar.
<mathiaz> kirkland: I second you
<mdz> we could create a server team calendar (if there isn't one already?) and add the triage days to it
<soren> I don't think that would help much.
<soren> If I get reminded about everyone else's triage days as well, I will begin ignoring reminders.
<soren> I've added it to my own calendar.
<mdz> soren, the way I do it is to add reminders (alarms)
<mdz> so it is only for the things I need to be reminded about
<mdz> but having them all on one calendar makes it easy to reschedule: just swap days with someone, and the reminders get updated
<soren> mdz: I have reminders by default.. But I guess I don't for stuff from other calendars.
<soren> You're right. Let's do that.
<mdz> but anyway, sounds like this is good enough for now
<mdz> soren, oh, wow
<mdz> ok, we're out of time
<mdz> thanks, all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:02.
<ttx> thanks
<mathiaz> thanks - and happy karmic days :)
<alexm> thanks and ubuntu karma for all
<jdstrand> o/
<kees> mdeslaur, jdstrand: ok, status sent.  :)  this week, I'm focusing on RC testing.
<kees> and hopefully finishing more graph reports.
<kees> that's it from me.
<mdeslaur> This week, I'm doing iso testing, and continuing work on qt4-x11
<mdeslaur> that's it
<jdstrand> I too am doing iso testing, along with install audits, preparing a few SRUs for non-RC bugs not yet in karmic and I've got a firefox and pygresql update
<jdstrand> I am on triage this week, and as part of that decided to triage apparmor bugs
<kees> I saw that!  looks great.  :)
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> any questions for the security team?
<kees> quick meeting.  :)  thanks!
<jdstrand> o/
<Riddell> mdeslaur: what's up with qt4?
<mdeslaur> Riddell: webkit issues
<mdeslaur> Riddell: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/qt4-x11.html
<Riddell> mdeslaur: hmm, not so fun
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-27
<amachu> hi
<happyaron> amachu: hi
<amachu> persia: elky: lifeless: Hello
<happyaron> freeflying: ping
<amachu> happyaron: hi
<persia> Hey amachu
<amachu> persia: hello!
<amachu> persia: CC results have come?
<persia> amachu, Which results?
<lifeless> hi
<freeflying> happyaron: hi
<amachu> lifeless: Hello
<amachu> and TheMuso: hi
<amachu> elky: are you there?
<TheMuso> Hey amachu.
<amachu> persia: TheMuso: lifeless: we four are here..
<amachu> wondering what elky is now!
<amachu> shall we start then..
<persia> we're quorate, so we could.
<amachu> let elky join, as she awakes ;-)
<amachu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<amachu> Indus: Hi
<TheMuso> The first candidate has a incorrect wiki page link.
<amachu> sorry, indus & ddorda appear not to be here
<amachu> happyaron: Hi
<happyaron> amachu: hi
<happyaron> I'm here, :)
<lifeless> amachu: happyaron noted to me that the wiki page didn't have an accurate schedule a few days back
<amachu> lifeless: yes. I was lazy enough to change it today only..
<lifeless> amachu: if I can suggest, change it at the end of a meeting ;)
<persia> I suspect that's why we have so few participants.
<amachu> will do it immediately here after, with a stamp that we meet second & fourth tuesday
<amachu> persia: can be a reason..
<amachu> happyaron: Please go ahead, explaining your contributions to Ubuntu
<happyaron> ok
<happyaron> I have been an Ubuntu user and contributor since Feisty
<happyaron> and my major contribution is in localization field
<happyaron> I am now taking the lead of Ubuntu Simplified Chinese translators as well as Launchpad Simplified Chinese translators teams
<happyaron> what's more, I've been part of Ubuntu Translations Coordinators now
<persia> happyaron, In your wiki page, you say you're working towards providing a better environment for translators.  Could you expand on that?
<happyaron> persia: yes
<happyaron> This could be explained in two fields, my LoCo and the universe one
<happyaron> for my LoCo, I am reorganizing zh_CN team, help on setting up a more organized team
<happyaron> I have made it a circle of contributors who are willing to help, and help them know more about doing such work
<happyaron> the organization will be expand to much more than a Launchpad team, who have the privilege to fix things for language pack
<happyaron> I am working on make more and more people available for upstream work
<happyaron> writing the new set of documentation is part of my work
<happyaron> as you can see a list on my LoCo wiki http://wiki.ubuntu.org.cn/User:Happyaron
<happyaron> (in Chinese)
<happyaron> For the worldwide, I am working with other members of U-T-C team, and have just begun
<happyaron> now I am focus on fonts and other user experience problems especially for CJK users
<happyaron> who need special care due to the special character
<amachu> happyaron: say about your packaging experience
<happyaron> sure
<happyaron> Now I am the maintainer of gmchess for Debian
<happyaron> it is a Chinese chess game, or rather Xiangqi
<happyaron> I work with Li Daobing, whose a Debian Developer, and he told me the resources to fix all kinds of issues
<happyaron> freeflying helped me when I just get started and I should thank him, too.
<happyaron> I am now preparing to pack ubuntu-tweak for Lucid
<happyaron> this package is an excellent tool to tweak, which is written in python
<amachu> happyaron: are there people here to support your membership?
<happyaron> amachu: yes, dpm and freeflying is here
<happyaron> lidaobing wasn't, :)
<dpm> hi, yes, I'd like to support happyaron's application
<amachu> dpm: freeflying: yours comments on happyaron
<freeflying> amachu: yes, I support his application
<dpm> he's been a very active member of the Ubuntu Translations Coordinators team, basically taking care that translations for all Ubuntu users are in good shape
<dpm> he's quickly learned the procedures in the team, and at the same time has adapted to changes (the team is relativley new)
<dpm> relatively
<dpm> I meant
<amachu> dpm: thank you
<freeflying> amachu: I've witnessed nearlu all his contribution to FLOSS, back from the time he just started
<amachu> persia: lifeless: TheMuso: shall we take voting now?
<freeflying> amachu: he has great passion
<amachu> freeflying: thank you
<persia> I'm ready.
<TheMuso> amachu: I think so.
<amachu> I would give +1 considering contributions to translations, packaging supported by testimonials at the wiki as well as here..
<TheMuso> +1 as well, great work.
<persia> I'm very much in favour.  Lot's of good work, strong support.
<amachu> and lifeless?
<elky> oh. it's tuesday. whoops. here now
<elky> looks good +1
<lifeless> +1
<amachu> that a surprise vote, all of a sudden :-D
<happyaron> thank you all, :P
<amachu> happyaron: War welcome
<amachu> happyaron: Warm welcome
<happyaron> amachu: thanks!
<freeflying> happyaron: congrats
<lifeless> amachu: sorry I've been missing meetings
<happyaron> freeflying: :)
<dpm> happyaron, congratulations!
<lifeless> amachu: its an awkward time, middle of the evening, so I lose track.
<happyaron> dpm: thanks for your support!
<ziroday> happyaron: yay!
<happyaron> ziroday: yeah!
<persia> lifeless, Would later be better for you?  I thought we selected this time to not be so late that far east.
<lifeless> persia: no, basically if I have time to relax after work its likely to end up with me relaxed :)
<persia> heh.  Makes sense.
<amachu> lifeless: thats ok. Lets see if could have two different times once Zheng joins..
<persia> Regarding that, did we get a response from the CC?  I don't remember a clear one.
<lifeless> +1
<lifeless> IIRC
<lifeless> with 2 year term I think
<TheMuso> Do we not have another candidate?
<lifeless> TheMuso: 2 awols, I thought
<persia> So, what's outstanding to add freeflying to the board?
<amachu> Following a mail from Daniel Holbach dated 07 Oct, there is consensus over it
<amachu> persia: i will add him to launchpad team & mailing list, send a mail to CC and Ubuntu News Team
<amachu> persia: hope that completes the job of inclusion
<amachu> any comments?
<persia> I don't think we can add to the team.  I think CC needs to do it (based on https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania/+members)
<TheMuso> nothing from me
<amachu> persia: Yes. I will make it the request..
<persia> amachu, OK.  Sounds good to me then.
<amachu> elky: lifeless: any thing else to discuss?
<elky> nope
<amachu> fine then..
<amachu> thank you all for participating.
<amachu> happyaron: Welcoming you again. Keep up the great work.
<amachu> Our next meeting will be on 10 Nov 09, likely with Zheng on team :-)
<happyaron> amachu: thanks, !
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> morning plars GrueMaster StevenK lool davidm paulliu dyfet ogra JamieBennett1
<dyfet> need coffee
 * StevenK shores
 * plars is here
<GrueMaster> dyfet: I see your coffee, and raise you 20oz.
 * NCommander raises StevenK shores with snores
 * NCommander has a pot freshly brewed
<davidm> hello
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091027
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091027
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<NCommander> who's here?
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] paulliu to close remaining moblin sync bugs for karmic
<MootBot> New Topic:  paulliu to close remaining moblin sync bugs for karmic
<StevenK> I believe they have all been closed
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
<NCommander> ogra, ping?
<ogra> aww
 * ogra was bitten by DST change
<JamieBennett> ogra: me too!
 * NCommander wonders when we change the clocks in the states
<ogra> my gcal apparently too :/
<soren> NCommander: This weekend.
<plars> in the US, we postponed DST change until next week (just so we wouldn't interfere with Ubuntu release week of course!)
<NCommander> \o/
 * NCommander makes a mental note to set the clocks forward.
<plars> NCommander: then you'll be two hours off
 * NCommander coughs
<JamieBennett> lol
 * ogra wonders why gcal still shows it at 15:00 
 * NCommander drinks his coffee and whistles slowly
<NCommander> ogra, probably hasn't been upgraded for DST
<NCommander> ogra, so about that bug :-)?
<ogra> err, i suck ... missed that
<ogra> c/o
<NCommander> [action] ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
<NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster and plars to test suspend/resume on babbage and report results
<MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster and plars to test suspend/resume on babbage and report results
<plars> bug #456659
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 456659 in linux-fsl-imx51 "suspend/resume failure on imx51" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/456659
<GrueMaster> Simple, it doesn't work.
<NCommander> Is there a bug for Dove as well?
<plars> NCommander: yes
<dyfet> yes
<plars> bug #453682
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453682 in linux-mvl-dove "late resume failure on dove" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453682
<plars> also, hibernate does not seem to be supported on either... could just need to be turned on in the kernel config, but I haven't had time to confirm that
<plars> hopefully one of the kernel guys will beat me to it
<paulliu> StevenK: yes. all bugs are closed.
<NCommander> [action] dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
<dyfet> Had same issue
<dyfet> Noted in bug :)
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
<ogra> NCommander, where is the new rolling action i added
<ogra> (sponsoring feedback)
<NCommander> ogra, oh, *grumble*. I must have missed that when I wrote the minutes
 * NCommander makes it appear
<NCommander> [action] Sponsoring feedback
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Sponsoring feedback
<NCommander> uh
<NCommander> [topic] Sponsoring feedback
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsoring feedback
<StevenK> Haha
 * ogra fixed bug 401039 with a sponsoring upload
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 401039 in xf86-input-evtouch "Add support for TouchPack family touchscreens (Clevo TN120 series tablets / ASUS eeeTOP and other devices)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/401039
<StevenK> Right, NCommander is doing all the sponsoring
<ogra> anyone else who did some sponsoring this week ?
<ogra> bad bad ... we suck
<NCommander> I did some work with apw on fixing bcmlwl on 2.6.32 kernels, but that wasn't sponsoring as it usually counts :-/
<ogra> i would say we only count sponsoring if it results in an upload you do
<NCommander> Anyone want to say anything else on this topic before I move on?
<ogra> yes
<ogra> we need to get better here
<ogra> (which is why i added the topic)
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
<NCommander> I think the only spec that still marked incomplete is lsb compliance, so I don't think we need to spend too much time on this
<NCommander> GrueMaster, anything to report?
<GrueMaster> I am almost finished testing RC.  Just need the manual bits.
<ogra> err, what about the new specs :)
<GrueMaster> For LSB
<NCommander> ogra, TBH, I rather save that for next week once we're past release
<NCommander> and ****, door, brb
<NCommander> [topic] UNR Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR Status
<ogra> NCommander, not sure but i think there should be blueprints registered for the ones we want on the schedule prior release
<ogra> davidm may correct me if thats not needed this round though
<ogra> last time we definately had to have blueprints for the schedule the week before release
<plars> I haven't tested it yet, but supposedly Bug #447886 was fixed for unr
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 447886 in netbook-remix-launcher "On startup Gnome Keyring asks for password in the background" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/447886
<NCommander> ogra, I'll do a New Specification Discussion towards the end though
<plars> JamieBennett: did you happen to look at it?
<JamieBennett> plars: It is (I've tested)
<ogra> NCommander, ok
 * NCommander loves packages being delivered at 9:20
<plars> that's good news
<ogra> yeah
<JamieBennett> Indeed, took a little work yesterday but its done now
<plars> I found a particularly nasty bug about oem install when testing isos last night, but it turned out not to be UNR specific
<plars> it will be one of the bugs that's triggering a respin for today though, so there should be new images to test in the near future
<NCommander> Anything have anything else to add before I go to UMR status?
<NCommander> [topic] UMR Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  UMR Status
<JamieBennett> why is it that pidgin always dies during a meeting :(
<paulliu> I've tested most of the bugs today. Most of them are not reproducible by myself. And those are not really major problem so things are good now.
<ogra> cool
<paulliu> About UMR compliance, I've check the report again.
<ogra> JamieBennett, probably because pidgin knows that it sucks for IRC ? :)
<paulliu> On library part, it seems we need to keep old version of library to make the compliance. But it's really annoying to do that.
<plars> a lot of moblin-remix bugs got fixed in the latest downgrade
<paulliu> plars: yes. Mutter downgrade fixed a lot of bugs.
<GrueMaster> Moblin compliance for RC looks great (to me).  Only 133 failures out of 70106 tests.
<JamieBennett> ogra: Indeed I keep going back to irssi but I just can't get on with it
<ogra> xchat ++ :)
<paulliu> GrueMaster: ok. I just thought we need to make that 0 failures for compliance..:)
<StevenK> irssi ++++++++++
<GrueMaster> Compared with 165/70084 the week prior.
<paulliu> So the status is good now. Thanks.
<StevenK> That's 0.1% of all tests failing
<plars> GrueMaster: were comparison results ever posted for upstream moblin?
<GrueMaster> paulliu: I don't think we can achieve 0 failures.  Some of these are LSB tests that fail on the regular LSB test suite as well.
<paulliu> GrueMaster: Yes.
<GrueMaster> plars: not yet.  Time and platforms were an issue.  Hope to do them soon.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, do these same failures show up on the reference implementation from Intel?
<plars> understand
<GrueMaster> NCommander: ^^^
<GrueMaster> I haven't had time or a spare platform to run the Intel image.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, right, sorry
<NCommander> [topic] New Specification Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Specification Discussion
<GrueMaster> My son is going to be working on getting another 32bit system online this week for LSB testing in my rack, freeing up one of my D945GCLF systems for side by side comparisons.
<ogra> NCommander, no armel status ?
<lool> Hey folks; missed the beginning of the meeting
<plars> hi lool
<ogra> yay for DST change :)
<plars> heh
<NCommander> ogra, we haven't one before, but probably a good idea
<NCommander> [topic] armel image status
<MootBot> New Topic:  armel image status
<ogra> imx51 live looks good ...
<lool> May I respectfullly suggest that you drop the Specification review stuff until post UDS?  You can ping people to remind them of writing specifications though
<ogra> apart from the syspend/hibernate issues
<plars> there are some important bugs on armel I'd like to bring up
<plars> the hibernate and suspend resusme ones of course that we discussed earlier
<NCommander> dove live looks good based on test results
<plars> also bug 458501
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458501 in gnome-screensaver "screensaver hangs on unlock, eats cpu" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458501
<ogra> lool, i only asked for it because we might have to have registered for scheduling
<lool> On a similar note, Sponsoring isn't really something we should be spending time on at this time of the cycle IMHO
<lool> (So probably something which is not worth discussing in the last two weeks before release)
<lool> (The list of topics for the meeting were meant to track deliverables and bugs through the cycle for e.g. alpha releases etc.)
<NCommander> lool, fair enough.
 * ogra thinks its valuable to report sponsoring status at any time 
<lool> On ARM, I found Dove Y1 install to be quite unstable too, like NCommander
<lool> ogra: Most items in the sponsoring queue are not compatible with final freeze
<GrueMaster> Am I the only one with working audio on Dove Y1?
<NCommander> lool, plars's Y1 was stable though. I'll be investigating this today.
<lool> I am also very worried with the babbage 2.0 issue
<NCommander> GrueMaster, with yesterday's daily, did yo have any stability issues with your Y1?
<ogra> lool, though still i did a sponsoring upload to universe last week
<lool> That it doesn't come up after install
<plars> GrueMaster: afaik, yes... I still haven't got audio working
<GrueMaster> Haven't tested Dove this week yet.
<ogra> lool, is there a bug for it ?
<lool> I let it run overnight and gdm created so many temp files that it ran out of inodes in the /var/run tmpfs
 * ogra hasnt seen one
<lool> ogra: No; JamieBennett and I see it, but we don't know what's happening
<ogra> sounds definately weird
<lool> I couldn't diagnose it enough before leaving and had issues getting a screen to work _at all_ here
<GrueMaster> ogra: Bug #451635
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451635 in alsa-driver "Sound not working on dove Y1 board" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451635
<lool> (I'm using the sprint's screens and they didn't work with 2.0 and 2.5 boards!!)
<ogra> boot with "text"
<lool> I had to borrow another screen which does indeed work
<ogra> bah
<lool> There are also clock issues on 2.0
<lool> Perhaps even on 2.5
<ogra> lool, tried to boot with a video= cmdline ?
<lool> What I think we need to do now for Babbage / Dove is identifying the rough spots of the install and making sure our installation instructions cover them and provide workarounds
<lool> ogra: I did, and it didn't help
<ogra> might be that the EDID fallback to 1024x768 doesnt work on B2
<lool> ogra: video=mxcfb=1024x768@60,bpp=16 to be precise
<ogra> very weird
<ogra> not sure bpp=16 will be respected
<lool> I suspect the EDID support exposes the hardware bug on 2.0/2.5 more or less badly
<lool> ogra: What's the correct arg?
<ogra> just video=mxcfb=1024x768@60 i think
<JamieBennett> ogra: My install boots to GDM then the screen goes blank. A press of the enter key brings it back.
<lool> I found it reading the driver's source code; I'm relatively confident it should be
<ogra> i have to look it up after the meeting
<lool> ogra: I was specifically interested in using bpp=16 since that was a recent change in the kernel
<ogra> JamieBennett, sounds like DPMS
<lool> JamieBennett: Oh you can _stay_ on the gdm screen?
<lool> You're lucky; I dont see anything at all
<JamieBennett> Boot to GDM, 1/2 second and the screen goes blank. Press enter key its all back for good
<lool> NCommander: Did you update the bootrom version for dove install?
<NCommander> lool, not yet, that was on my TODO for today.
<lool> JamieBennett: Wow that's not at all what I've been seeing
<JamieBennett> lool: strange
<lool> NCommander: So I was quite unhappy to discover that the uboot update -- which is more or less required -- itself requires a TFTP server; so far I did everything without and am a bit sad that we require people to have another Ubuntu computer to install Dove boards     :-/
<lool> I checked out the Uboot code but there's a cascade of subtle defines and runtime computations for the Uboot NAND/SPI NOR addresses and size and alignment and crazy shit which makes anything but "bubt" unpractical
<NCommander> lool, there's a known method for doing a NAND reflash without bubt, but its a bit hit or miss I found
<NCommander> lool, we could add a sbubt command somewhat easily though if desirable.
<lool> I guess that leaves people who cant use a second computer with the only option of typing uboot commands manually; it would be great to do a uboot upgrade command from memory instead
<NCommander> (serial bubt)
<lool> NCommander: We'd have to provide tools for the host side as well, and it again means two Ubuntu computers
<lool> NCommander: But a mbubt would be fine; we would just tell people to tftpdownload + mbubt, or USB load + mbubt, or serial load + mbubt...
<GrueMaster> Considering that to do anything in uboot requires a serial connection to a separate system, isn't this whole argument moot?
<lool> I think I did upgrade the bootrom from an USB stick fine though
 * NCommander agrees with GrueMaster 
<lool> GrueMaster: Entering commands can be done from e.g. hyperterminal
<NCommander> lool, I could write an entire automatic update system for uboot via boot.scr
<NCommander> lool, and I can run TFTP server on Windows as well
<GrueMaster> lool: do you honestly thing Ubuntu is the only OS with tftp support?
<lool> GrueMaster: I was sad to hear that, but a lot of companies working on ARM devices run Windows for development
<lool> GrueMaster: I honestly dont see us providing support for TFTP server instructions on windows...
<persia> tftp servers are usually one of the first servers available in an OS.  Lots of old-style fixed-line telephones can run them even :)
<GrueMaster> We don't need to.  Only what to put on their tftp server, not what os to run on it.
 * NCommander believes the current instructions are written in that mindset
<ogra> GrueMaster, the point is that we failed if you *have* to use a serial console
<ogra> which you e.g. dont have to do with the babbage images
<lool> Well we're discussing uboot upgrades anyway
<NCommander> ogra, yes, but to upgrade u-boot in flash to a version that's acceptable requires a serial console
<lool> NCommander: I think providing rom + uboot upgrade USB sticks would rock
<ogra> ++
<GrueMaster> I.e. "Setup a tftp server according to the instructions for your desktop OS..."
<NCommander> lool, the problem is theres no sane way to provide feedback that the upgrade is complete
<lool> NCommander: LEDs?
<ogra> uboot doesnt know when a write finished ?
<lool> Anyway, we're getting a bit far from release stuff
 * NCommander fires a back on topic cannon
<lool> My concern was: installing ubuntu on dove requires a step which requires setting up a tftp server, and that should be fixed
<NCommander> [action] lool and NCommander to discuss u-boot upgrades off-channel and report back
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool and NCommander to discuss u-boot upgrades off-channel and report back
<lool> I'm happy with uboot upgrade usb sticks or with a new mbubt command or any other similar solution
<lool> So do we have a finite list of things we need to cover in installation instructions?
<NCommander> so as far as release, how are things looking for armel overall?
<GrueMaster> Hey, just got a notification that this meeting is to start in 10 minutes.  Gotta love DST.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, odd, mine came on time this morning O_o;
<ogra> same here
<lool> Note: this meeting is likely to run a bit late as to allow us to cover release matters fully
 * ogra just got it now+
<plars> NCommander: well, there were the bugs I mentioned earlier, that are still pretty high, and in addition, sata on imx51 and sound on dove are still broken
<GrueMaster> Anyone know what's going on with bug #431963
<NCommander> lool, we'll have to move to #ubuntu-mobile, there's another meeting after us.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 431963 in linux-fsl-imx51 "io/fs errors when launching gdm on imx51 with sata" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/431963
<ogra> GrueMaster, nothing apart from FSL being on it
 * ogra hasnt heard back more
<lool> NCommander: I dont see it on the fridge calendar; which one is it?
<plars> TB meeting I think is normally right after us
<NCommander> lool, oh, whoops, TB isn't meeting this week
<lool> GrueMaster: It's not going to be fixed for release; it's targeted as a SRU candidate
<StevenK> TB is every 2 weeks
<lool> Yes
<NCommander> so we're fine here
<GrueMaster> I figured that.  Just wanted to make sure someone was on it.
<plars> GrueMaster: until then, any testing you do on imx51 should be to something other than sata
<lool> ogra: I'm not quite sure FSL cares for it still
<lool> ogra: They got the word that we're past kernel freeze now
<ogra> hrm
<lool> ogra: Would be good if you'd stay on top of it so that they provide a SRU able fix
<ogra> do they know that we still fix critical bugs post release ?
<ogra> yeah
<lool> ogra: You were on the call with me last week and I mentionned that we wanted to still get help from them to fix this bug post release
<lool> ogra: I mentionned the first two weeks after release as the time where we should focus on it
<ogra> i'll try to provide them more info and dig down to the actual trigger thats spawned by gnome-session post release
<lool> (They objected that they could not continue working on karmic forever, asking for a deadline)
<GrueMaster> Do we have a 2.6.28 kernel I can test to see if the sata problem goes away?
<lool> ogra: A smaller testcase would indeed help
<ogra> lool, well, deadline is two weeks post release then
<ogra> :)
<lool> GrueMaster, ogra: (post release) feel free to run gnome-session --debug from a xterm session and see what's exactly hanging the board
<lool> or SATA IO
<ogra> right
<lool> ogra: Yup, that's what I told them (roughly)
<lool> So are there other release worthy ARM bugs to cover?
<lool> What I see we need to cover:
<lool> Babbage 2.0 display stability issues
<plars> lool: we discussed the suspend/resume and lack of hibernate support earlier
<lool> SATA IO errors
<ogra> babbage hibernate support is missing, seems like a config option in the kernel isnt on, thats surely also SRU worthy
<plars> also, on dove only, gnome-screensaver hangs if you lock/unlock the session
<lool> plars: Do you think it needs to be covered in release note like material>
<GrueMaster> Does anyone else see the babbage 2.5 screen wrap the top few lines to the bottom?
<NCommander> lool, probably looking at why we're seeing Y1 instability and plars isn't.
<lool> I dont have access to a dove board to look at gnome-screensaver
<ogra> (and suspend not finishing needs debugging on imx51)
<lool> dyfet: Can you look into this today?
<plars> NCommander: oh, others are seeing it too?  I thought you suspected something was up with your board last night
<dyfet> I can yes
<ogra> GrueMaster, nope
<plars> it's bug #458501
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458501 in gnome-screensaver "screensaver hangs on unlock, eats cpu" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458501
<NCommander> plars, lool seeing issues with his Y1
<GrueMaster> Pfft.  Figures.
<lool> plars: I have the feeling we didn't pay much attention to suspend/resume/hibernate so far; I think these are worth trying to fix, but dont need to be explicitely emphasized for release
<plars> NCommander: specifics?
<NCommander> plars, can't complete installation, board ust completely hangs with the counter stopping
<lool> plars: I'm thinking more of things preventing installation, or preventing normal first time use of Ubuntu
<lool> Things which would massively confuse folks basically
<ogra> lool, they should  be release noted though
<lool> dyfet: Cool, assigned to you then
<plars> yes, I did 3 installs on dove last night with no hang
<ogra> (the suspend/hibernate issues)
<dyfet> ok
<plars> I did see the cpu_idle and double-bit errors, but those have not caused me any identifiable problems
<lool> ogra: Ok; well could you please care for that with slangasek then?
<ogra> i will
<NCommander> plars, what u-boot/BootROM?
<plars> NCommander: don't have it handy, I'll get you that in a bit
<plars> NCommander: it's the one you gave me a couple of weeks ago
<NCommander> plars, so not BootROM 2.04 :-/
<plars> NCommander: uboot-SPI-Y1-1GB_10142009.bin was the filename if that helps
<lool> plars: Was the install really slow?
<NCommander> yeah, thats based off u-boot 4.3.0
<lool> plars: On dove
<plars> lool: yes
<lool> plars: Probably that should be release noted
<plars> lool: possibly so, it doesn't ever actually appear to hang for me though
<lool> plars: Does it slow down, or is it constant speed?
<lool> plars: Does it take like 1 hour?
<plars> lool: I haven't timed it.  The progress bar does seem to go a bit faster at the beginning, but I'm not sure that's an accurate way to say "it's getting slower as it goes"
<lool> I guess my question is: does the user see progress all the time, or shall we warn that there is a known bug
<plars> lool: the user sees progress all the time, there are no huge gaps, or anything that makes it look like the system has hung during the install
<lool> Ok; then we probably do not need to release note it
<lool> So I have this list for ARM stuff: http://paste.ubuntu.com/302806/
<ogra> lool, suspend/hibernate on dove ?
<lool> Oh I have bug #461812 which I need to cover too
<plars> lool: suspend/resume and hibernate.... right what he said
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461812 in ubiquity "Can't select London timezone" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461812
<lool> (Need to set the time on Babbage 2.x before install)
<lool> (for offline install)
<lool> What's status of hibernate on dove?
<plars> lool: same as on imx51, appears to not be supported
<plars> could just be kernel config
<ogra> very likely config
<lool> plars: And resume just doens't work on babbage?
<plars> lool: no way I can see to resume on babbage
<lool> Okay
<plars> it seems to see that the pwr button was pressed, but doesn't do anything with it
<plars> on dove
<plars> it tries to resume
 * ogra sees "CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND is not set" on imx51
<plars> but the system slows to a crawl
<lool> plars: That is fine
<ogra> might be the blocking factor for suspend
<lool> plars: thanks
<lool> Did you guys try networkless installs on dove and babbage boards?
<ogra> worked fine here when i tried last time on babbage
<plars> lool: I couldn't get to imx51 testing last night, GrueMaster said he was going to though.  On dove I did networkless install and it worked
<ogra> but thats a while ago, i'll try one today or tomorrow
<GrueMaster> I tested Live.  Stoped after install when rebooting into the sata bug.  Will resume with usb sata controller today.
<plars> so the workaround for bug 457536 seems to be working
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457536 in ubuntu-meta "Dove install will fail without network access" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457536
<lool> ogra: So you had one relatively recent networkless install of babbage?
<lool> I wont keep that on my radar then, feel free to test one or the other
<ogra> two weeks ago or so
<lool> Do we have general armel bugs which we didn't cover and should?
<plars> my battery on my babbage appears to be dead :(
<ogra> tried a voltmeter ?
<lool> plars: I would recommend measuring voltage and checking whether you can find hardware to replace it
<lool> plars: Do you feel like you would be able to solder it out and replace it with a one you'd shop for?
<plars> lool: voltage is 0
<lool> s/a one/one
<lool> plars: I think I agree your battery is dead
<ogra> even with power attached to the board ?
<lool> :)
<ogra> you should see at least some charge power
<plars> lool: going to try to get it out of there when I have time... for right now, I'm only running it powered
<ogra> even if the battery doesnt charge
<lool> plars: If you feel you need advice on hardware or help on replacing the battery, can you bring it up with FSL or ogra/davidm to bring up to FSL?
<plars> it would be good if we could at least get a recommended battery from FSL to replace it with
 * ogra was actually planning to ask for battery specs next call
<ogra> we dont know what to use to replace them
<lool> plars: Agreed; in fact, I think you're relatively local, right?  So I guess you could perhaps even get them to replace it for you if they don't mind
<ogra> snap
<plars> right, I'd feel a lot more comfortable getting that from them rather than guessing
<ogra> definately
<plars> lool: yes, they are just down in austin, not too far
<lool> plars: Sounds worth raising with them
<lool> Ok; no other generic ARM bugs?
<lool> JamieBennett: Your 2.0 doens't keep the time, right?
<JamieBennett> lool: Right
<lool> Ok; I need to release note that
<lool> NCommander: I think we covered ARM stuff
<lool> Just FYI, the images wont get new langpacks
<ogra> lool, you said software center would be slow for you on babbage
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<plars> We are expecting a respin across the board at some point today.  Any testing you can do on UNR, moblin-remix, imx51, or Dove, would be greatly appreciated.  And please document your results at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<ogra> lool, why is that ?
<lool> (We have a buggy germinate on cocoplum and it's too late to fix)
<ogra> ah
<GrueMaster> I think we can close bug #417009.  I was able to load Oo.o yesterday on the live image.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 417009 in openoffice.org "all openoffice apps die in 'com::sun::star::ucb::InteractiveAugmentedIOException' on armel in karmic" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/417009
<lool> GrueMaster: No the original bug is there; we only have a workaround in place
<plars> GrueMaster: iirc, that may just be a workaround for the time being
<ogra> GrueMaster, its was badly worked around
<GrueMaster> ah.
<lool> (In general, I think it's best if you only close bug when the root cause is fixed, not when a workaround is applied)
<lool> If in doubt, split in two
<NCommander> lool, +1
<ogra> we should have a special "hacked around" status for these :)
<plars> ogra: agree, sometimes it's hard to tell
<GrueMaster> I didn't know the current resolution was temporary.  I'm just looking at the list.
<ogra> it will be permanent for karmic i think ...
<ogra> its just not the proper one
<ogra> duct taped ...
<lool> I'd like to go back to moblin remix and UNR
<lool> (Sorry)
<lool> Are there things to cover in the release notes for these?
 * StevenK looks for matchsticks
<StevenK> (It's 1:15am)
<lool> The only open release targeted bugs on UNR was this escaping issue for webfavs
<NCommander> [topic] UNR status
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR status
<lool> But it's been deferred to SRU
<lool> And I dont think it's worth release noting
 * ogra hands StevenK broomsticks
<GrueMaster> Games folder still overlaps bottom of window in UNR.  Need to release note for (hopefully) sru fix.
<plars> hmm
<StevenK> ogra: The matchsticks are to hold my eyes open
<lool> plars: Do you see any major bumps in moblin remix installation or first time usage which should be covered?
<plars> there are a handful of people seeing indicator applet disappear on upgrades to unr karmic
<ogra> StevenK, i know :)
<plars> might be worth release noting how to work around this problem if you see it
<ogra> plars, indicator applet or indicator session ?
<lool> Hmm
<plars> I don't have a good feel for how much of a problem to expect this to be.  I know of 3 cases of it happening, but I've been unable to reproduce it myself
 * ogra just saw someone complaining about -session missing on the ubuntu-users ML
<plars> indicator-applet-session - the gnome applet in the upper right hand corner that lets you shutdown
<lool> Yeah, my problem is with how it happens exactly; I kind of suspect desktop-switcher before upgrading or something like that
<ogra> plars, right
<ogra> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2009-October/199557.html
<plars> it's not that the package didn't install, it's just that it's not running for them
<lool> I'll cover these with slangasek; the fact that we don't understand who gets the problem or how it appears makes it a bit hard to word
<plars> bug 461115 is the bug on it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461115 in netbook-launcher "indicator session applet missing after upgrade to Karmic with UNR" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461115
<lool> "You might or might not miss the shutdown/session menu after an upgrade; in case it goes missing..."
<lool> Ok; thanks
<lool> I'll check it out with slangasek I think
<plars> ok
<lool> Any other UNR issues?
<lool> JamieBennett: You tested the keyring binaries from the archvie as well?
<JamieBennett> lool: Yes, works a treat :)
<plars> yes, he mentioned that they were working earlier
<lool> Cool
<lool> Any other bits for Moblin?
<lool> StevenK: Happy with our Moblin / UNR?
<StevenK> lool: I am, for the most part
<plars> a lot of stuff got fixed with the mutter version change
<StevenK> Concerned about the -session bug
<plars> one thing of interest... though I can't find the bug on it
<JamieBennett> lool: although why you have to unlock the keyring every time you boot to access the network is another issue
<plars> is that you have to hunt for the installer
<paulliu> lool: Most bugs are seems not important. Or we already know that issue but still waiting the upstream.
<lool> StevenK: Which one is that?
<plars> it isn't in the favorites that get displayed on the main screen
<lool> StevenK: indicator-session?
<plars> might be worth a release note
<lool> paulliu: Thanks
<StevenK> lool: The one that we just talked about
<lool> Oh I know
<StevenK> plars: Yeah, I tried to fix it, and failed
<lool> How to launch the installer in moblin remix should be release noted
<plars> interestingly enough, the software center *did* get added there :)
<plars> lool: right
<GrueMaster> Games folder still overlaps bottom of window in UNR.  Need to release note for (hopefully) sru fix.
<GrueMaster> There used to be a bug filed on this, but I'm not seeing it now.
<plars> GrueMaster: don't think that one warrants a release note probably
<lool> I noted that one down, even if I have to decide with slangasek whether it's release note worthy
<davmor2> GrueMaster: there still is a bug on it
<plars> GrueMaster: it's bug 445829
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 445829 in netbook-launcher "Text on "Games" menu is outside of window" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/445829
<lool> I feel like it's an obvious bug and it doesn't block you from installation or normal usage too much
 * plars has mad bugfinding skills today
<lool> plars: Impressive :)
<lool> Ok; do we need to discuss anything else for release?
<NCommander> the launchpad-foo is strong with this one
<lool> Perhaps someone should give some testing to random images like alternates and netboots for arm/unr if they feel like it
<lool> Not needed, just nice to have if you're bored
<plars> not just that, but all of them
<plars> and *please* log your results on iso.qa.ubuntu.com
 * JamieBennett is downloading the iMX51 image now
<lool> Right
<lool> Also please add a comment when you "fail" an image
<lool> Well sometimes the bug link is enough
<lool> But consider adding a comment when it helps clarifying breakage
<lool> Ok; I guess we're about to adjourn
<lool> Do put some ice in the freezer
<lool> To cool the champagne on thursday  ;-)
<lool> dyfet: Assigned 458501 to you
<ogra> :D
<GrueMaster> Champagne?  I'm going for the hard stuff.
<lool> NCommander: thanks for chairing
<NCommander> lool, np
<NCommander> did we do ABO?
<lool> Folks I wont be at the meeting next week (traveling) and might not attend regularly future meetings, but if you invite me explicitely to discuss a topic or just ping me during the meeting, I shall be able to comment
<StevenK> AOB
<StevenK> Not, ABO
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<lool> And I wont be there Friday (leave)
<lool> And I'll go walk my dog Sunday
 * GrueMaster sits in frustration, watching his dls modem reset continuously through the meeting.
<ogra> your dog ?
<GrueMaster> s/dls/dsl
<NCommander> I might be swapping Friday out
<lool> Well I dont have a dog, but couldn't think of something representing personal stuff nobody cares about better  :)
<NCommander> So I may beMIA unless I'm needed due to an unforseen issue with release :-)
<davmor2> lool: is it a yellowdog :D
<lool> StevenK, paulliu: Good night guys
 * StevenK goes to find a bed
<paulliu> lool: Thank you.
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:30.
<ogra> lool, well, as long as you dont go buying cigarettes and never return ...
<lool> ogra: I will go buying cigarettes in the foundations team next week though
<ogra> yeah
<lool> (And will never return  ;-)
<ogra> but we wont let you off the hook easily :)
<ogra> we'll still bother you :P
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-28
 * randa-lunch is away: Gone away for now
 * randa is back.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-29
<dholbach> soren, jpds, nhandler: ready?
<nhandler> Yep
<dholbach> mdeslaur: around?
<jpds> Afternoon.
<soren> Yup.
<mdeslaur> yep
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:11. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dholbach> we're here for the MOTU Council meeting - this is an impromptu meeting as we did manage to have quorum last time - some folks were travelling
<dholbach> we'll have a look at the agenda of the 22nd October: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
<dholbach> hey highvoltage
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Jonathan Carter's MOTU application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jonathan Carter's MOTU application
<highvoltage> hi dholbach
<dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JonathanCarter/MOTUApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JonathanCarter/MOTUApplication
<dholbach> hey highvoltage - how are you doing?
<highvoltage> stgraber: ping
<mhall119|work> dholbach: I was trying to run harvest the other day, but the install instructions didn't get me the django openID stuff, where can I find that?
<highvoltage> good thanks dholbach, glad that the Edubuntu release went well (and relieved)
<mhall119|work> oh, sorry, is there a meeting?
<dholbach> mhall119|work: we are in a meeting here - can you PM me and I'll reply later?
<mhall119|work> dholbach: sure
<dholbach> mhall119|work: mail should work too
<dholbach> mhall119|work: thanks!
<stgraber> pong
<stgraber> hey everyone
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: please hang around though :)
<mhall119|work> I will
 * mhall119|work needs to get his ubuntu membership application ready
<dholbach> highvoltage: your wiki page says you're interested in becoming MOTU and you need upload rights for ltsp cluster? which of them are you pursuing in this meeting? :)
 * dholbach is confused in a pre-karmic-release way :)
<highvoltage> dholbach: becoming motu, stgraber says I'm ready!
<dholbach> ok, so you'd like to have upload rights for the whole of universe/multiverse?
<nhandler> highvoltage: Could you please describe some of your contributions to things other than ltsp?
<jpds> highvoltage: Is there a particular reason you're interesting in the LTSP stack? Do you deploy it regularly in your work?
<stgraber> ltsp-cluster was basically his way of doing a lot of packaging, then we'd really need an extra set of hand for education related packaging
<highvoltage> dholbach: yes, that would be ideal for new things we want to get in Edubuntu for Lucid
<dholbach> ok
<highvoltage> nhandler: in terms of packaging things that have gone into the archives I've only done a patch to include a manpage for gnome-open, so the ltsp-cluster packages have been my main area of work so far
<highvoltage> jpds: yes I do, and I will be doing more LTSP related work very soon
<jpds> highvoltage: Excellent.
<nhandler> highvoltage: What would you do if you were to become a MOTU? Would you be mainly focusing on Edubuntu packages?
<stgraber> ltsp-cluster was a good way to get into packaging as it's php / python and some scripts in a lot of different packages, some using cdbs, some others using debhelper. As his mentor, I though it would be a good idea to work on these, especially as he soon will be working with these almost everyday ;)
<highvoltage> nhandler: initially, yes, since there is a big need for it, one of the first things I'd want to do is work with mhall119|work to get the Qimo packages in the ubuntu archives
<highvoltage> nhandler: I'd also like to get some packages in for Guidalinex Edu so that they can use plain Edubuntu in their deployments
<highvoltage> nhandler: my interests are certainly much wider than Edubuntu though, but that's where I'll probably be focussing on for the immediate future
<dholbach> highvoltage: are you in touch with the guadalinex guys regularly? how well are we cooperating with them?
<highvoltage> dholbach: we chat casually over IRC, we know more or less what they need but we haven't been able to really provide it yet
<dholbach> highvoltage: is there anything you found most difficult when you were starting your packaging / ubuntu development journey?
<highvoltage> dholbach: basically, we just need to make some changes to the edubuntu-menu work that LaserJock as already did, but from a community perspective we need to pull them in better into the Edubuntu project
<highvoltage> dholbach: yes, it's easy to get lost in details, I relied on documentation alone for a long time and it didn't work out
<highvoltage> dholbach: so the packaging guide would mention that you need to know make, and I'd spend a long time reading about make and related documentation that weren't really necessary
<dholbach> ... depending on what you want to do and what you start with :)
<nhandler> highvoltage: We are currently working on cleaning up the packaging guides, any feedback on that would be greatly appreciated
<highvoltage> dholbach: I've found that it's much better asking in #ubuntu-motu and cool motu people such as LaserJock, stgraber, ogra, ScottK, etc
<highvoltage> nhandler: ok, I have a printed copy from Lulu so I'll go through it agian to point out areas I had trouble with
<highvoltage> ideally I would have done more packaging work before applying, but I think I have a good understanding of the processes and I wouldn't do anything risky or weird before consulting with anyone else first
<dholbach> jpds, soren: do you have more questions?
<nhandler> I am sorry, but I have to leave now. Hopefully, geser will show up, otherwise, we will figure something out in terms of voting
<soren> dholbach: Nope.
<jpds> None from me.
<dholbach> [vote] Shall Jonathan Carter become MOTU?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Jonathan Carter become MOTU?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jpds> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<soren> I thought we didn't have quorum?
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dholbach> soren: we still do
<soren> Oh, ok.
<soren> +1
<soren> then
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<soren> :)
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<dholbach> congratulations highvoltage
<highvoltage> YAAAAAY \o/
<highvoltage> dholbach: *hug*
<jpds> highvoltage: congrats!
<dholbach> (sorry, doorbell rang in the meantime :-))
<mdeslaur> congrats highvoltage
 * dholbach hugs highvoltage too
<czajkowski> highvoltage: whooo congrats!
<highvoltage> only 5 years after I first heard of motu and wanted to join!!! :)
<mhall119|work> congrats highvoltage
<dholbach> mdeslaur: for your application, I suggest we send questions now and quickly proceed with voting over mail if geser or persia don't show up in time :)
<mhall119|work> now I know who to harrass to get Qimo packages in Universe
<mdeslaur> dholbach: ok
<dholbach> highvoltage: I'm sure the Edubuntu community (and everybody else) will appreciate it :)
<highvoltage> dholbach: thanks! and thanks to the Motu Council
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Marc Deslauriers' Core Dev application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Marc Deslauriers' Core Dev application
<highvoltage> I'll make your votes count
<dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcDeslauriers/CoreDevApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcDeslauriers/CoreDevApplication
<dholbach> mdeslaur: how are you doing? :)
<mdeslaur> dholbach: I'm great :)
<mdeslaur> we're releasing today!!
<dholbach> :-)
<mdeslaur> You can't see it, but I'm wearing a Koala suit right now
<stgraber> highvoltage: contratz
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I'm imagining it to be very fuzzy
<dholbach> mdeslaur: I'm glad you're wearing something
<mdeslaur> hehehe
<dholbach> soren, jpds: questions?
<dholbach> mdeslaur: what is your primary interest in Ubuntu development apart from general security?
<dholbach> mdeslaur: are there contributors for the qa regressions tests?
<soren> dholbach: No, I know what I'm voting :)
<jpds> I'm with soren.
<mdeslaur> dholbach: well, I would like to start working on extending my security involvement to authentication, and desktop lock-down
<mdeslaur> dholbach: the QA team contributes also to the regression tests
<mdeslaur> ah, of course, to make Ubuntu better in general, not just from the security side
<dholbach> mdeslaur: it strikes me as an area that should get many more people contributing to it
<dholbach> any idea how we get the word out some more?
<dholbach> should it be easy enough to contribute?
<mdeslaur> dholbach: well, regression testing is not something that people generally like to do. Although we ask the community when they submit security patches to test and possibly write qa testing scripts, I unfortunately have not seen any go by.
<dholbach> is it too hard to write those tests?
<mdeslaur> dholbach: not really, they are simple python-unit scripts. sbeattie did an excellent tutorial on them on irc the other day.
<dholbach> maybe somebody could blog about it again or bring it up in some kind of tutorial / irc session again
<mdeslaur> dholbach: I think the priority right now is to get people more involved in actually producing security updates for universe packages
<dholbach> it's just too awesome to not put some more work into it :)
<dholbach> ok
<mdeslaur> dholbach: that seems to be the area that I think we could sum up some interest
<mhall119|work> are there script templates?
<mhall119|work> that might help
<dholbach> mdeslaur: let's chat about that outside the meeting some - maybe at UDS over a beer :)
<dholbach> alright, I'm done with questions myself
<mdeslaur> dholbach: that sounds good :)
<dholbach> soren, jpds: shall we "vote provisionally" and ask the others to weigh in via mail to speed this up?
<mdeslaur> mhall119|work: there is a template for starting a new script, and the existing scripts are simple to understand
<soren> dholbach: I'm confused. I thought you said we were quorate?
<dholbach> soren: nhandler left in the meantime
<soren> dholbach: I thought he left just before we voted on highvoltage..
<soren> Ah, I see now.
<dholbach> soren: nhandler still participated in that vote
<soren> Yes, I thought he left right before. Ok.
<soren> Errr... Yeah, I guess we can just vote here and let the others do it over e-mail.
<dholbach> soren, jpds: opinions? leave everything to be voted on the ML or "collect our votes here already"?
<soren> Actually.
<soren> ..
<soren> Let's do it over e-mail.
<dholbach> ok
<soren> We can all just send our votes straight away.
<dholbach> thanks mdeslaur for your understanding
<mdeslaur> dholbach: no problem!
<dholbach> soren: can you take care of Marc's application?
<soren> It seems simpler to have it all in onve place.
<dholbach> I'm happy to process Jonathan's
<dholbach> soren: just a piece of log or something, so the other's know what we talked about
<dholbach> soren: happy with that? :)
<soren> Sure.
<dholbach> fantastic
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
<mdeslaur> thanks everyone!
<dholbach> thanks mdeslaur and highvoltage
<mhall119|work> ubuntu.com is updated, 9.10 is officially out
<mhall119|work> congratulations to everyone involved
<dholbach> ok, sounds like everybody has some celebration to do, let's adjourn!
<dholbach> have a great day and thanks everyone
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:45.
<highvoltage> thanks eveyrone!
<bucky> ubuntu is the only distro that screwed with xchat to join their channel... how do you undo it
<Vantrax> bucky try #ubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-01
<m4n1sh> When will the next meeting of Asia and Oceania region be held ?
<ajmitch> m4n1sh: last meeting looked to be on the 12th, I guess last week was skipped due to UDS
<m4n1sh> ajmitch: so when is next?
<ajmitch> which may make the next meeting on the 10th, but there was talk at the last one of splitting into 2 meeting times for Asia/Oceania
<ajmitch> you'd need to ask the board members about it
<m4n1sh> ajmitch: how do I contact?
<m4n1sh> personally pinging is something I dislike a bit. It's sort of distraction
<ajmitch> yes it can be a bit annoying
<ajmitch> the team is at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania
<m4n1sh> ajmitch: I saw that
<m4n1sh> just not able to decide whom I ping
<m4n1sh> probably popey
<popey> hmm?
<m4n1sh> popey: you are also in one of them?
<m4n1sh> right?
<popey> one of what?
<m4n1sh> if not in Asia/Oceania
<popey> I'm on the EMEA board
<m4n1sh> I thought of applying via Americas but the time difference is huge
<popey> where are you?
<m4n1sh> India
<popey> surely EMEA is do-able?
<m4n1sh> popey: yes
<m4n1sh> I Just missed it
<m4n1sh> it is/was Today?
<m4n1sh> EMEA is 1:30 at night which is fine, but I just missed the date
<UndiFineD> popey, emea it tomorrow right ?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<popey> The next meeting is scheduled for November 2nd 2010, 20:00 UTC and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-02
<czajkowski> .c
<jpds> .py
<nigelb> .rb
<UndiFineD> .rexx
<davidm> persia, you about?
<davidm> NCommander, ??
<davidm> rsalveti, you about?
<davidm> GrueMaster, you about?
<GrueMaster> Present in body, caffeine will take care of the rest.
<davidm> At this point it looks like you and I are the only folks from the team present
<mpoirier> you have your faitfull kernel team representative...
<davidm> Ah good enough
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:04. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> Given that almost no one is here, it will be a quick meeting
<davidm> [topic] kernel status
<MootBot> New Topic:  kernel status
<mpoirier> nothing to report as it was UDS last week.
<mpoirier> still working on SGX driver in kernel.
<davidm> beat me too it
<davidm> :-)
<davidm> Anything we need to take action on?
<mpoirier> not that I can see.
<davidm> OK thanks for the update
<davidm> [topic] QA status
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA status
<davidm> GrueMaster, any thing to report?
<GrueMaster> Nothing new here as I was on vacation.
<GrueMaster> Missed UDS.  Still trying to connect to gobby to review UDS notes.
<GrueMaster> Nothing else.
<davidm> OK
<GrueMaster> I'm surprised ogra and persia are not here, but I guess they are at plumbers.
<nigelb> GrueMaster: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSProceedings/N/ might help instead of Gobbby.
<GrueMaster> ok
<davidm> ogra is traveling to plumbers today as I will be soonish
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSProceedings/N/
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSProceedings/N/
<GrueMaster> Yea, figured that.
<davidm> [topic] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<davidm> NCommander, is having connectivity problems and can't connect to Freescale :-(
<GrueMaster> You mean freenode?
<davidm> GrueMaster, yes, bloody spelling corrector
<GrueMaster> heh
<davidm> Freenode
<davidm> If there is nothing else from anyone then I'll call the meeting for today...
<davidm> close the meeting going once...........
<davidm> close the meeting going twice.....
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:14.
<GrueMaster> Safe trip to Boston.
<davidm> Thanks GrueMaster I hope to, I'll leave here in a couple of hours
<kees> \o
<kees> cjohnston, mdz: tb meeting?
<pitti> is it now or in 1 h?
<pitti> I'm good wit heither
<pitti> kees: ITYM cjwatson :)
<kees> cjohnston: sorry :)
<mdz> I updated the calendar to be +1h
<mdz> which is what we usually do on DST
<pitti> matter of definition; 1400 UTC?
<kees> mdz: so the tb meeting is tied to UK time, not UTC? when is it in UTC?
<persia> It's historically been tied to UK time
<mdz> kees, that's how it's been historically, though the members were all on UK time the last time we discussed it I think ;-)
<kees> I could have slept another hour.
<mdz> I have a priority call right now but could lurk if you want to start
<mdz> it's the chair's decision
<kees> since the meeting is generally for other people, linking it to UTC makes more sense.
<kees> I'll wait an hour; we don't have half the board at the moment anyway.
<kees> pitti, mdz, cjwatson: tb meeting take 2?  (still no sabdfl nor keybuk)
<mdz> kees, sabdfl and I are on a conf call which should be wrapping up shortly. please go ahead and start
 * pitti waves, take II
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> hi
<kees> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<kees> [topic] action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  action review
<kees> * Colin to ensure that documentation on nature of extras.ubuntu.com archive makes it into process docs, and ensure that ARB legality checks are synchronised with those of ubuntu-archive.
<cjwatson> I haven't done this, largely due to UDS - please carry it over
<kees> okay, thanks
<kees> * to follow up with Brian on 174375
<kees> afaiu, the work from the LP side on this is done now.
<kees> mdz: any notes on this?
<sabdfl> hello techboard
<mdz> kees, he mentioned to me at UDS that it was almost done
<pitti> hey Mr. General of a verrry small countrrrry!
<mdz> (bdmurray did)
<mdz> I think there was one more thing which needed to be changed, and it was configuration rather than code
<sabdfl> privet tovarisch
<kees> mdz: should this action be removed?
<mdz> kees, yes ir
<mdz> sir
<kees> heh, okay, noted.
<kees> [topic] Dynamic "per package upload permissions" for Debian Developers
<MootBot> New Topic:  Dynamic "per package upload permissions" for Debian Developers
<kees> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2010-October/000109.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2010-October/000109.html
<kees> this would need soyuz support as well as our sign-off.
<pitti> do we already have a proposal there, or do we start from just this mail?
<kees> I cannot find a TB propsal anywhere
<sabdfl> i don't think this wants to be automated
<pitti> I like the idea of allowing DDs Ubuntu uploads for their packages upon request, but they should at least confirm that they understand our release cycle and freezes
<sabdfl> scripted for ease of execution, perhaps
<sabdfl> and guidelined as policy
<cjwatson> I also don't think it should be entirely automated, but I do think it should be easier than it is now
<sabdfl> but i do think the DMB or an analog needs to engage with the DD in question
<pitti> i. e. I'm happy to waive the detailled sponsor feedback, etc.
<persia> Could it be automated for DDs who are ~ubuntu-dev but not for other DDs, or are there ogre-model concerns?
<kees> how is this really different than just a sync request?
<cjwatson> in particular I would like to take the "write up justification and attend IRC meeting" bit out of the equation, and perhaps have something more e-mail-based
<pitti> cjwatson +1
<cjwatson> Debian developers aren't as used to the IRC-meeting bit as we are
<sabdfl> +1 for folks already in ~ubuntu-dev, and +1 for bypassing the meeting cadence in favour of a straight email process
<pitti> also, the primary point there is to understand how/that we need to merge and to obey feature/string freezes etc.
<cjwatson> kees: I can easily imagine situations where the Debian developer wants to help out with the merge, say
<cjwatson> or where they know that some different chunk of code is needed for Ubuntu
<kees> cjwatson: yeah, true
<kees> cjwatson: the edges of this system are a bit vague. I'm not sure I see an "easy" technical solution beyond the existing upload permissions.
<cjwatson> kees: full automation would need Soyuz support, but if we had (say) the DMB in the loop then we could do it using our existing ACL facilities
<sabdfl> should we anticipate differences of opinion, and ways to deal with them? for example, branding and cadence
<cjwatson> although the scripting would be fiddly
<cjwatson> differences of opinion is my main concern.  I don't want to block on it because I don't want to assume bad faith, but I agree we need to think about it
<sabdfl> we could pre-empt this with a nice form email to the DD when they were brought on, along the lines of "things to consider when working across both Debian and Ubuntu"
<pitti> cjwatson: something like a script which adds ACLs to all packages where the requestor is in Uploaders: or XSBC-Original-Maintainer: or Maintainer: ?
<cjwatson> perhaps simply make it clear up-front that this facility isn't so that Debian developers can revert deliberate Ubuntu changes they don't like
<sabdfl> right
<sabdfl> working here is working with us
<cjwatson> pitti: probably somewhat interactive, but some kind of lplib-based thing, yes
<sabdfl> 99.9% of participation would be good faith, i expect
<cjwatson> I agree
<kees> I think that if a DD is involved enough to want to help with merges, then they're ready for per-package upload rights. I don't think its sane to have an automatic method for DDs to just upload their packages, though.
<pitti> I agree
<sabdfl> what about UDD permissions and DD's?
<cjwatson> I think those are hooked off ArchivePermissions, and if they aren't then they should be
<kees> alright, sounds like a formal proposal should be emailed to TB?
<sabdfl> sounds good
<cjwatson> we should think about communication too
<pitti> seems we already pretty much agree about the scope and shape of this?
<kees> yeah
<sabdfl> details details details matter, proposal would make sure
<cjwatson> perhaps talk with Stefano about whether this is appropriate for debian-devel-announce, etc.
<cjwatson> I agree in general, devil in the details
<kees> [topic] Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<MootBot> New Topic:  Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<cjwatson> (debian-devel-announce> at a bare minimum I'm sure it would be OK for DeveloperNews, which is batched up and e-mailed to d-d-a every so often)
<kees> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-October/000519.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-October/000519.html
<kees> Micro release exception request for Chromium
<cjwatson> BTW, I'll follow up to Sylvestre on the list and say that we're discussing this
<kees> I'm in support of the micro release exception for Chromium. fta acknowledged the need to not backport all packaging changes, etc, and I think that was the only remaining concern.
<sabdfl> fta's analysis of past updates suggests he's fully on top of the SRU rationale and how it may map to Chromium
<sabdfl> +1 from me
<pitti> +1 from me as well (I think I already said so on the list)
<mdz> yes, I thought this was more or less agreed on the list
<cjwatson> the last time we discussed this we were just waiting for a formal proposal, so I'm fine
<kees> okay, I'll make note, we're at +4 which is sufficient.
<kees> anyone see anything else from the list that needs attention currently?
<kees> [topic] Quarterly Brainstorm review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Quarterly Brainstorm review
<kees> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-September/000493.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-September/000493.html
<mdz> so I've done a tiny bit of preparation on this
<mdz> i.e. reviewed the brainstorm content and picked out some candidates
<mdz> unsurprisingly, the content is dominated by client topics
<mdz> as opposed to server
<pitti> (not yet mid-november, but sure)
<mdz> there is a server category, but there is so little there (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/server/most_popular_6_months/) that I'm not sure it is worth it
<kees> we could select now, and take action by mid-nov
<mdz> we're doing this the first time so we could use the slack ;-)
<kees> agreed
<mdz> shall I run through them?
<kees> should we do that in IRC or email?
<kees> (how many are there?)
<mdz> we don't need to make decisions on them here, but I'd like to just discuss a bit so that we understand the scope
<mdz> I pulled out the top 10
<mdz> based on 6-month popularity
<mdz> #1 is power management
<mdz> I think there is implicit acknowledgement that this could be improved
<mdz> and some good work in progress which we can highlight
<pitti> are we still doing so bad there? (except for this "load balancing tick" causing a million wakeups)
<mdz> e.g. what Linaro is doing
<mdz> pitti, I still need to take a lot of manual steps to get good battery life on an airplane
<mdz> e.g. SIGSTOP to my web browser, USB autosuspend, etc.
<pitti> hm; of course there's always more stuff that we can do, but it wouldn't have been the first thing that I had named on "what are the most pressing problems"
<mdz> pitti, the point isn't to judge whether we agree or not, but to respond to an inquiry from our user base
<pitti> mdz: right, no doubt here; as I said, I was just surprised
<mdz> some thousands of people voted this up saying they were interested
<mdz> so I suggest we ask someone to write up a few paragraphs about the state of things
<mdz> #2 is about IP address conflicts
<mdz> which seems a very niche problem to me
<mdz> but I wonder if it's something which is more common than we realize
<cjwatson> URL?
<mdz> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/25648/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/25648/
<mdz> my suggestion would be that we get some data, e.g. run a poll to ask people if they've ever had this problem
<mdz> #3 is  a suggestion to automatically select the username in gdm if there is only one choice
<mdz> which seems very sensible to me, and is something we could pass on to the design team
<kees> sounds like autoipd isn't working? or education is needed about link-local and mDNS use of .local ?
<persia> My previous experience in moderate-sized corporate environments indicates that misconfigured DHCP can cause this to be very frequent.
<pitti> #3 was discussed at length already actually
<pitti> I'm fine doing a writeup for this
<mdz> ok
<pitti> kees: it's about manual IPs
<pitti> i. e. a very niche problem IMHO
<mdz> #4 suggests having a different icon for .deb packages, because they currently look a lot like zip files
<kees> pitti: right, there should be no reason to use manual IPs, but sure, people still do
<mdz> but are actually something much more volatile
<mdz> I don't know where the current icons come from, but we could certainly pass on this suggestion to the upstream for those icons
<pitti> or to our artwork team
<sabdfl> it's good feedback for MPT and we can accommodate it
<mdz> if they happen to be the upstream, yes. I'm not sure
<pitti> (for our default theme)
<sabdfl> (the network bit)
<pitti> this still makes me wonder how useful that prioritization is
<sabdfl> we're also about to start work on a new icon theme
<mdz> #5 is a suggestion to keep the system clock synchronized with internet time servers
<pitti> upgrades with nvidia driver breaks for tens of thousands of users
<mdz> which is interesting because, of course, we already do
<cjwatson> I think #5 is just a bug - ntpdate is installed by default
<sabdfl> and can accommodate the package icon piece too
<mdz> cjwatson, I think it's more subtle than that
<cjwatson> I've noticed it occasionally not working right for me, but have never got as far as investigating
<sabdfl> mdz: the ntpdate pieces are clunky
<mdz> I think people don't realize how it currently works
<mdz> and also, there is a setting in the UI which asks if you want your clock synchronized
<mdz> which does something different, which is NOT enabled by default
<mdz> so maybe we give people the wrong impression
<sabdfl> we do
<mdz> so I think this certainly would benefit from a response, and possibly from some fine-tuning the UI
<pitti> mdz: we'll actually remove that part (from gnome-system-tools)
<mdz> #6 is a suggestion to "Help the user understand when closing a window does not close the app"
<sabdfl> this could definitely use work, both in the UI and in the behaviour of ntpdate and in the relationship of that and ntpd
<mdz> pitti, ok, so more cutting out than fine tuning ;-)
<cjwatson> mdz: you missed one, "GNOME System Monitor lacks in-depth information"
<mdz> this presumably refers to things like rhythmbox and banshee which have weird close button behavior
<mdz> cjwatson, ah, sorry
<pitti> and I don't think that configuring a local NTP server is an appropritate thing to prominently advocate on a desktop system
<pitti> (with ntpdate already in place)
<sabdfl> ntpdate currently runs only on ifup iirc
<mdz> I'm not sure I understand that one; it seems like a solution in search of a problem
<pitti> mdz: #6> there was a natty spec for this
<sabdfl> well, we now have a way of showing that they are still running, which is a start
<mdz> pitti, yes, I thought there would be some good links to respond with
<mdz> any thoughts on the GNOME system monitor thing? let's call that #7
<mdz> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/25887/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/25887/
<mdz> I think this is an "I can do this in windows" item
<mdz> for the GUI power user
<sabdfl> i'd prefer it to open as a tab in the same window
<sabdfl> but yes, we could put that out as a call to action
<mdz> if I were responding, I'd say "we'd be happy to see this added if someone is interested in implementing it"
<mdz> and offer mentoring
<sabdfl> +1
<pitti> right, should be rather straightforward to get this from /proc
<mdz> #8 suggests that software centre should purge packages rather than just removing them
 * kees nods
<mdz> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/24963/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/24963/
<cjwatson> I think we should pass this to the software-center folks for design wowrk
<cjwatson> *work
<kees> for desktop, I would tend to agree about purge
<pitti> it's not something I'd like the desktop team to do, though (since we have much bigger problems to attack)
<pitti> happy to mentor, though
<cjwatson> it's obviously not as simple as something that can always be one way or the other
<cjwatson> (well, obvious to me anyway :-) )
<pitti> my last stanza was for #7 (sorry, lagged)
<sabdfl> kees: because it makes it easier to "reset" by removing and reinstalling?
<mdz> it would be great to get someone knowledgeable about the inner workings of the packaging system to explain the subtlety a bit
<mdz> and get input from the software centre team about what they think
<cjwatson> and I think it relates to future work for integrating computer-janitor into s-c (although the item does note that c-j doesn't fill the need either)
<mdz> it's definitely not a JFDI sort of item
<sabdfl> no
<cjwatson> I think the requestors know the difference between remove and purge, or they wouldn't be asking
<kees> sabdfl: yeah, it results in a slightly cleaner slate. for server, though, I think it is a marginally dangerous default.
<mdz> but deserves a response
<sabdfl> anyone admining a server can make smart choices
<sabdfl> and isn't using software center
<cjwatson> ... yet
<sabdfl> :)
<mdz> we don't need to debate it here, just getting an idea of what sort of response we might want to get
 * persia mumbles about home NAS devices
<mdz> continuing on
<mdz> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/25417/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/25417/
<sabdfl> mdz: was there anything about version controlled /etc?
<mdz> making Ubuntu One sync status a bit more transparent
<mdz> sabdfl, sort of
<mdz> I think it's reasonable to want the system state to be visible wrt U1 file sync
<mdz> and that we should pass this feedback on to the U1 team and get their take
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> timely
<mdz> the final one of these 10 is multimedia performance
<mdz> which I have to say I'm wondering about myself as well
<mdz> because some important use cases regressed for me in 10.10
<mdz> certain types of video playback (like DVD) are noticeably slower
<sabdfl> under mutter only, or default desktop too?
<mdz> I don't know about mutter
<mdz> but definitely in desktop edition
<kees> okay, so response crafting via email, or as a TODO for discussion next time?
<mdz> any guesses who might be able to look into this?
<mdz> it might turn out to be a bug, or at least a "we're sorry"
<mdz> though the comments are all over the map, including "pulseaudio is a waste of cpu" type stuff
<kees> I haven't seen any regressions.
<kees> did they have specific measurable instances?
<mdz> there is one popular "solution" about regression testing multimedia performance
<kees> which will be video hardware sensitive, and require monitoring of CPU time, disk IO, etc. not a subtle thing to measure.
<mdz> of course
<mdz> remember, our primary goal here is to be more responsive
<mdz> to listen and talk about the issues
<mdz> we may or may not get to a solution
<mdz> depending on all sorts of factors
<mdz> but we should have the conversation publicly
<mdz> I think we can take the rest of this to email
<mdz> I'll take the action to write it up
<kees> [action] mdz to write up Quarterly Brainstorm review
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to write up Quarterly Brainstorm review
<kees> [topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<kees> nothing new there
<mdz> the next step will be identifying individuals to write up the responses
<kees> [topic] other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  other business
<kees> I would like to propose we tie the Tech Board meeting to UTC, and make it 1500.
<sabdfl> only the creator can move it
<sabdfl> and i think that was keybuk
<mdz> no, it's on a calendar that several of us have write access to
<sabdfl> ok
<persia> Why 1500?  Last time it was UTC, it was 1400 (although that was years ago).
<mdz> persia, our time zone distribution has shifted substantially
<cjwatson> either time is fine with me
<mdz> kees has to wake up at an ungodly hour for this time
<persia> Ah, that makes sense.
<mdz> I don't mind having it a bit later
<cjwatson> much later than 1500 isn't great for me on Tuesdays
<cjwatson> at least when we're on summer time
<pitti> same here, desktop meeting is at 1630 UTC
<pitti> 1400 or 1500 UTC both WFM
<kees> 1500 will still be Too Early for me during winter timezones, but I'll live. better than 1400! :)
<kees> sounds like no one is very opposed to 1500. shall we make that official? who can change the calendar?
<sabdfl> i don't think i can
<sabdfl> clan says it appears at 1500 going forward
<sabdfl> could be it's in US time?
<cjwatson> we probably just get to move it around every time DST changes
<sabdfl> anyway, we're agreed on the principle
<cjwatson> mdz moved it earlier today
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> is that a wrap?
<mdz> I moved it, but if I hadn't, it would have stayed at the same UTC time
<mdz> because that calendar is set for no DST
<sabdfl> kees: thanks for stepping in as chair, clan told me it was me today, am i up next week?
<kees> sabdfl: I think so, yeah
<kees> sabdfl: we skipped the last meeting, so I was just up again
<sabdfl> ok happy to take it
<kees> alright, that's everything
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:56.
<kees> thanks!
<sabdfl> thanks folks
<pitti> thanks everyone
<zul> hola
<hallyn> o/
<jjohansen> \o
<smb> \o
<robbiew> \o/
<hallyn> yay for enthusiasm :)
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<SpamapS> _\o/_
 * SpamapS can only do the splits on IRC
<zul> uh....who is running the metting?
<hallyn> since ttx can't, i think it's zul!
<SpamapS> there was some suggestion that it would be postponed for ttx.. ?
<hallyn> oh, postponed???  i thought he wanted to move it forward an hour
<zul> ive lost track
<smb> That would be the same time as the kernel-team meeting. :)
<smb> Or does moving forward mean making it later
<smb> ?
<SpamapS> So, clearly, we are unclear on this.
<zul> yes...yes we are
<zul> so im volunteering SpamapS
 * SpamapS hopes volunteering means "hugging" in Canadianese
<zul> nope means the same in Americanese
<jjohansen> SpamapS: are you sure you hope it means hugging, /me would have hoped it meant zul was actually volunteering himself
<zul> fine...ill volunteer
<zul> start meeting
<zul> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:14. The chair is zul.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<zul> there we go
<zul> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> mathiaz to send a call for ideas on ubuntu to the puppet community
<zul> im assuming thats not done mathiaz ^^^
<SpamapS> Actually I think it was done and he discussed it at UDS in his puppet sessions
<zul> cool...
<zul> next:
<zul> ALL to mark maverick assigned specs as "Implemented" or Deferred
<zul> i know i have to do mine
<hallyn> i've done mine...
<hallyn> well, carry over i guess :)
<zul> hallyn gets a cookie then :)
<SpamapS> ttx would know. he always knows. <sniff>
<hallyn> i'll tkae it!
<zul> and finally...
<zul> zul to check SRU tracker status
<zul> which i havent done so carry over
<zul> nexxxxt.
<zul> [TOPIC] Post-UDS trauma
<MootBot> New Topic:  Post-UDS trauma
<zul> everyone recovered?
<hallyn> 'help, i have a syndrome'
 * smb suffers the next one
<zul> everyone not sick or dying?
<zul> i guess robbiew might want to bring up the topic of specs?
<hallyn> me, no sickness, and i'm psyched!
<zul> hallyn: good good
<robbiew> hmmm
<robbiew> For now, I'd like folks to focus on completing the specs for blueprints
<robbiew> based on the sessions
<robbiew> and then documenting work items
<robbiew> with the iteration approach...we won't be committing to everything for the cycle upfront
<zul> okie dokie sounds good to me :)
<robbiew> but having an idea of the work required for each is a good way to decide
<zul> [TOPIC] Maverick SRUs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick SRUs
<hallyn> so 'completing the specs' == 'writing summaries in whiteboard area' ?
<robbiew> we can do the planning poker thing as well...but that's after we know the work needed
<robbiew> hallyn: well...work items are what I want...but usually there is a wiki.ubuntu.com spec attached to some of the blueprints
<SpamapS> hallyn: I think it means filling out the spec template in the wiki.
<robbiew> that have more details about the deliverable and such
<hallyn> hm, ok, i'll look at examples, thanks
<robbiew> not EVERY blueprint needs a spec...but most major features will
<robbiew> for example, the work around breaking the installer into 2 stages needs a wiki spec
<zul> so like the containers stuff right?
<robbiew> but a blueprint on integrating Eucalyptus stuff can just have whiteboard Work Items
<robbiew> zul...yeah
<zul> k
<robbiew> if in doubt, just ask me :)
<zul> [TOPIC] Maverick SRUs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick SRUs
<zul> we have a couple of bugs
<zul> bug 661547
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661547 in openldap (Ubuntu) "Existing patch gssapi.diff makes guess_service_principal produce garbage" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661547
<zul> mathiaz: were you working on that?
<mathiaz> zul: nope
<zul> so i guess that has been assigned to someone any volunteers?
<SpamapS> bug 660990 has been in the sponsorship queue since 10/18 and will need to be an SRU
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 660990 in libdbi-drivers (Ubuntu) "undefined symbol: _dbd_parse_datetime" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/660990
<zul> SpamapS: but me after the meeting and ill have a look at it
<zul> ok then ill have a look at the gasapi.diff as well
<SpamapS> zul: I've been specifically trying to let the sponsorship queue do its work and not bug people about sponsorship.
<zul> next is bug 657149 ttx was looking at it so we need someone to step up
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 657149 in squid (Ubuntu) "package squid 2.7.STABLE9-2ubuntu5 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/657149
<SpamapS> I'll take the squid bug
<zul> SpamapS: cool but i dont mind
<zul> SpamapS: cool can you assign yourself to it?
<SpamapS> zul: its more all the other things that have been in there longer than mine that I'm trying to respect.
<zul> the next two are #658227 and #660227 are in proposed does anyone have any feedback about them?
<SpamapS> zul: that squid bug is blocked on the reporter providing more info.
<zul> SpamapS: right but some of them are crack and people just havent got a chance to them
 * SpamapS subscribed
<zul> SpamapS: so its probably not a good candidate just yet
<zul> then the last one is 600174 which is the axis2c one which hasnt been fixed in natty...since it affects eucalyptus (kind of) ill get daviey to look at it
<zul> anything else?
<zul> going once
<zul> going twice
<zul> gone
<zul> next
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<zul> hggdh: around?
<hggdh> barely, but I am in
<zul> sweeet
<hggdh> (UDS cold)
<zul> thanks for the uds qa session
<hggdh> no news, I am still to write down the result of the QA session
<hggdh> but I am quite slow now :-(
<zul> okies...anyone else has any questions
<zul> ok so next..
<SpamapS> zul: btw, bug 660227 looks like it has three independent verifications of the proposed package, so I suspect its just UDS lag preventing it from being pushed to updates
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 660227 in php5 (Ubuntu) "php5-pgsql crash on getting an error back from postgres" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/660227
<zul> SpamapS: ok ill talk to pitti then
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<zul> hey jjohansen
<jjohansen> I would like to introduce smb he is going to be rotating into the role of server team contact
<jjohansen> hey
<smb> \O
<zul> hi smb welcome..
<SpamapS> smb: did we meet at uds?
 * SpamapS met a couple of Stefans
<Daviey> hey smb o/
<smb> SpamapS, Proabably, cannot remember much from there. :)
<jjohansen> his brain was addled by the sun :)
<zul> any idea which version we are using for natty?
<jjohansen> 2.6.38
<smb> 2.6.38 likely
<zul> exxcelente
<zul> wohoo...dom0
<zul> ;)
<jjohansen> ha!
<zul> anyone have anything else?
<SpamapS> dom0 arigatu?
<jjohansen> you are assuming that we will turn that on last minute
<zul> jjohansen: yes its a big assumption
<SpamapS> smb: are you going to be who we bug about phantom ec2 load? ;)
<jjohansen> likely it will be an N+ thing
<jjohansen> SpamapS: both of us
<smb> SpamapS, I expect that to be true
<jjohansen> though, some of that should be disappearing now
<zul> have you guys talked to the xen kernel guy about it yet?
<jjohansen> the one patch to Lucid went into the security branch, and smoser was pulling that for some builds
<zul> ah...
<jjohansen> zul: which part of the phantom load?
<jjohansen> some of it is just general kernel bugs
<zul> okies
<jjohansen> the other is the patch getting stuck in proposed for months
<zul> heh
<zul> anyone else?
<smb> but should be out nowish
<zul> going once
<zul> going twice
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<zul> sommer: around?
<zul> guess not
<Daviey> Probably more ubiflu :(
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<kim0> Howdy folks o/
<kim0> a couple of updates I'd like to mention. I am pushing IS to deploy the first iteration of Ubuntu cloud portal this week (finally:)
<kim0> The portal is a collection to important documentation, news rolls, and pointers to development projects on how to get started contributing to ubuntu and cloud
<Daviey> hey kim0, you were missed last week. o/
 * kim0 hugs Daviey 
<kim0> Once deployed, suggestions to be added to the next iteration from everyone are most appreciated
<zul> cool....anything else?
<kim0> The other thing .. During UDS there have been lots of feature requests. If anyone has a feature request or two that are in (I'd like to do this, but I probably wouldn't have time) state (I've seen a couple for cloud-init)
<kim0> please contact me so that I can start trying to attract community contributions to implement that feature
<kim0> that's all for me
<zul> any questions?
<hallyn> kim0: parameters for feature requests?
<kim0> hallyn: as in, what qualifies
<Daviey> Where will the portal be announced, server list assume?
<hallyn> right
<kim0> Daviey: sure yeah and cloud
<Daviey> groovy...
<kim0> hallyn: well .. it should basically be something easy enough for a new comer to work on
<Daviey> kim0: I guess you'll share the "what qualifies", and examples in the announce mail right?
<kim0> makes sense .. doing that
<hallyn> kthx
<Daviey> \o/
<zul> anything else?
<kim0> done
<zul> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<zul> so people want to move the meeting time again eh?
<kirkland> nah
<hallyn> nah
<zul> *sigh* :)
<mathiaz> nah
<kim0> should I ignore that new meeting invitation ?
<SpamapS> 1600 UTC is fine with me.
<hallyn> kim0: i thought that was for the same time
<kim0> no .. it's shifted an hour for me
<Daviey> My suggestion, was to allow ttx to be able to attend this meeting
<Daviey> as a one off... not raising a time change request for ongoing ones.
<hallyn> kim0: are you in the uk?  dst offset this week?
<kim0> well no .. no time changes for me
<kim0> weird .. ok .. if the meeting time does not change .. that's fine by me
<zul> Daviey: i think he will make the effort if he wants to attend the meeting or not ;)
<Daviey> zul: Yes, too late now.. it was for *this* meeting.
<zul> any other topic
<zul> Daviey: yeha i see your point
<zul> so next meeting is at Tuesday 2010-11-09 at 1800 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<zul> thanks everyone
<zul> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:44.
<kirkland> zul: thanks dude
<robbiew> new invite was just me removing dendrobates as the original owner :)
<highvoltage> Ubuntu EMEA RMB Meeting Time
<highvoltage> is our board present?
 * drubin 
<highvoltage> popey, czajkowski: are you there?
<popey> o/
 * stgraber waves
<popey> czajkowski: is in the USA and offline as I understand it
<lag> She said she'd be here
 * persia is about if there are problems
<popey> lag: she let us know today that she would not be
<popey> thanks persia
<lag> popey: No problem at all
<highvoltage> persia: we seem to have quorum, but if you'd like to stand in for Laura that would be great?
<popey> looks like ogra isnt about
<highvoltage> yeah he's flying
<stgraber> he's traveling to boston
<persia> If you've quorum, I'll let you get on with it and have breakfast a bit sooner :)
<popey> ah ok
<popey> I think we're okay persia, enjoy breakfast!
<stgraber> persia: enjoy your breakfast then :)
<drubin> persia: enjoy :)
<popey> who's up for chairing?
<popey> ok
<popey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:04. The chair is popey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<highvoltage> popey: seems like it's you ;)
<popey> so it would seem :)
<popey> lag: you're up first, would you mind posting a few lines about yourself?
<drubin> should be quick there are only 4 poeple
<highvoltage> lag: hi! are you around?
<lag> I am
<lag> My name is Lee Jones, I am a member of the Ubuntu Kernel Team
<lag> I work with the Arm team
<lag> Specifically on OMAP4 type devices
<lag> I enjoy long walks and walks in the sand :)
<lag> Is there anything in particular you'd like to know about me?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeeJones
<popey> https://launchpad.net/~lag
<popey> bah..
<lag> Thanks popey
<popey> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~lag
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~lag
<popey> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeeJones
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeeJones
<drubin> lag: are you invovled with other ubuntu related activities?
<popey> stupid bot
<highvoltage> lag: how is the kernel team? is it friendly to non-canonical staff? and is there something you would change about it?
<popey> some great testimonials there
<lag> We are extremely friendly
<cking> Yep, we are
<popey> and an effective +1 from ogra there
<lag> All of our work is in the open
<lag> You can contact us easily on #ubuntu-kernel
<lag> Where I monitor avidly
<highvoltage> great :)
 * highvoltage is ready to vote
<popey> How long have you worked at canonical lag ?
<popey> thanks highvoltage
<lag> 6 months
<lag> But I have been a Ubuntu fan for years
<popey> were you involved in FLOSS at all before then..?
<lag> I'm afraid not
<highvoltage> I'm unready to vote (question popped up)
<lag> Go ahead
<popey> heh, no need to be sorry, we all have our crosses to bear
<popey> :)
<lag> :)
<lag> I am fresh out of university
<highvoltage> lag: how did you manage to go from not being involved with free software to being able to contribute to kernel problems? do you come from a strong C background or something?
<lag> o:-)
<highvoltage> ah, you studied CS, I guess that answers my question then :)
<lag> I studied Linux at university
<lag> I was particularly interested in the Kernel, specifically porting
<lag> Not quite
<lag> Computing for Real-Time Systems
<popey> drubin / stgraber do you have any questions?
<stgraber> nope
<drubin> 11/02 22:06:58       drubin | lag: are you invovled with other ubuntu related activities?
<lag> drubin: Yes
<drubin> but I guess he answered that :)
<lag> Oh
<drubin> lag: Please elaberate.
<drubin> elaborate*
<lag> I volunteer to spread the good word about Ubuntu
<lag> I have been to Taiwan to give a talk on Ubuntu at UHS, which is not part of my job
<drubin> Ye I saw that. I am ready to vote.
<highvoltage> lag: wow, nice!
<lag> Most of the stuff is on the Wiki
<lag> I've done as much as I can in only 6 months
 * persia would like to mention that lag has also been active in coordination with a number of upstream kernel folk (non-mainline) to help resolve bugs discovered in Ubuntu.
<lag> I will continue to do so to the best of my ability
<lag> Quite
<lag> Thanks persia
<popey> thanks persia
<popey> [VOTE] on Ubuntu membership for lag
<MootBot> Please vote on:  on Ubuntu membership for lag.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<highvoltage> +1 [ clear evidence of sustained contribution to ubuntu and great backing from testimonials ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<drubin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<lag> Yay!
<popey> Congratulations lag !
<lag> Thanks guys
<cking> yay
<highvoltage> lag: congratulations and welcome!
<JFo> congrats lag :)
<stgraber> congrats lag
<drubin> congrats lag
<lag> :D
<popey> added to ~ubuntumembers
<lag> Good luck Colin
<popey> cking: you're up!
<cking> ok
<popey> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColinKing
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColinKing
<popey> [LINK] http://launchpad.net/~colin-king
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/~colin-king
<cking> that's me :-)
<popey> cking: would you like to tell us a bit about yourself? :)
<cking> Ok, I work in the Ubuntu Kernel Team, mainly focused on BIOS related issues.
<highvoltage> cking: I would've liked to see more details on your work on your wiki page,
<cking> I've been focused on automated BIOS testing, and in the last 6 month I've written the firmware test suite (fwts)
<highvoltage> cking: I looked at https://launchpad.net/~colin-king/+related-software for some more details but it looks a bit sparse,
<highvoltage> cking: stgraber told me that the kernel team does most of their work through a vcs instead of packages
<cking> yep, I work with git as this is the preferred way of handling patches with the kernel
<highvoltage> cking: could you perhaps elaborate on how the kernel team does things and how you contribute your work?
<highvoltage> cking: ok
<cking> well, the kernel team is responsible for delivering quality kernels...
<cking> so we do a lot of hardware specific work, and we work hard at fixing issues without causing regressions. It's very non-trivial
<cking> I am focused on making sure PCs work well with the kernel at the BIOS and ACPI layers, so a lot of my work is involved in trying to get BIOS fixes
<cking> ..as well as fixing ACPI when it's broken :-)
<highvoltage> cking: when you get ubuntu membership you should blog about those bios fixes on planet ubuntu, I'm sure many people will be interested in hearing about that
<popey> cking: where have you given these presentations? http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~cking/presentations/
<cking> I went over to Taiwan to present at the Ubuntu Hardware Summit
<cking> and Steve Conklin gave one of my presentations in the US because I had surgery and could not make it in person
<drubin> cking: What are some of your reasons for seeking Ubuntu Membership?
<popey> Who were the attendees? Mostly OEM/ODMs?
<cking> popey, OEM/ODMs, but the presentation is for anyone who has BIOS/ACPI issues and want's to see how to fix/work around issues
<popey> interesting thanks
<popey> stgraber / highvoltage / drubin any more questions?
<highvoltage> ready to vote
<cking> drubin, I'm seeking Ubuntu Membership as I want to contribute more to community.  I blog a lot and I want to be involved more in spreading the word about Ubuntu
<drubin> cking: Thanks.
<popey> yeah, thats quite a technical blog you have there :)
<cking> http://smackerelofopinion.blogspot.com/ - my blog
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://smackerelofopinion.blogspot.com/ - my blog
<stgraber> I'm fine with the questions that have been asked so far. I've been multi-tasking a bit (reading his blog and LP)
<popey> ok
<cking> Also, I am trying to get my kids local school to use Ubuntu.
<popey> oh, nice
<popey> meeting resistance?
<drubin> cking:OO now that is interesting.
<cking> No, they are embracing open source, and I am meeting the staff in a few weeks to do some demos
<popey> thats the kind of thing people love to read about in blogs on planet ubuntu.. :)
<drubin> hopefully you will blog about the results.
<popey> [VOTE] on Ubuntu membership for cking
<MootBot> Please vote on:  on Ubuntu membership for cking.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<highvoltage> + 1 [ great feedback from prominent kernel team members ]
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<highvoltage> popey: people like to read about bios bugs too!
<JFo> I know I do
<popey> highvoltage: your vote didnt register
<drubin> +1 [Feed back from other members..]
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<highvoltage> +1 [ great feedback from prominent kernel team members ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<popey> stupid bot
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<popey> congratulations cking !
<cking> thanks! :-)
<lag> Wooooooooooooooooo
<highvoltage> lag: congratulations and welcome!
<highvoltage> I mean, cking :)
<drubin> lol
<cking> :-)
<popey> added to ~ubuntumembers
<popey> hajni: are you available?
<hajni> yes, I'm here
<popey> hi!
<hajni> hello
<popey> Would you like to introduce yourself..
<popey> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hajni
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hajni
<hajni> My name is Hajnalka HorvÃ¡th. I am an IT teacher trainee at ELTE University, Hungary.
<popey> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~hajni
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~hajni
<hajni> I am responsible for education related issues in our LoCo.
<highvoltage> hajni: did you know that the next Ubuntu Developer Summit will be happening in Budapest?
<hajni> yes, I am very happy about it :)
<highvoltage> hajni: great! what kind of education related issues do you usually deal with?
<hajni> i work on our e-learning material
<hajni> we would like ubuntu to be officially accepted at the school leaving exam in Hungary
<popey> http://edu.ubuntu.hu/ This stuff is great
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://edu.ubuntu.hu/ This stuff is great
<highvoltage> I'm just glancing through the material, the education seems to be about learning Ubuntu, right? (as apposed to education in ubuntu)
<hajni> we have some material about openoffice as well
<popey> is this all original material from yourselves? Or was it translated from another teams work?
<hajni> partly translated, but many parts are written by us
<popey> you use moodle?
<hajni> actually, we started our work earlier as the Manual Team...
<popey> nice :)
<hajni> popey: it is ilias
<popey> How large is the team working on the e-learning material?
<highvoltage> is anyone from hajni's loco team around?
<toros> highvoltage: I am here!
<hajni> popey: there isn't a team, some people come and help me occassionally
<highvoltage> toros: you can confirm that hajni organised the lucid and maverick release parties?
<popey> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mogorvamormota/4565510348/in/set-72157623837399835/  - A first for me seeing an Ubuntu screen projected in what looks like a pub :)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/mogorvamormota/4565510348/in/set-72157623837399835/  - A first for me seeing an Ubuntu screen projected in what looks like a pub :)
<toros> highvoltage: yes, she did :)
<highvoltage> great!
<toros> it was at a place called billy rotten
<popey> Looks fun!
<toros> when you come to Budapest, I will show you the place ;)
<popey> hajni: What motivates you to work on Ubuntu ?
<hajni> i am a would-be IT teacher, and would like to work with ubuntu at my future school
<hajni> that is why I have to work hard now...
<drubin> Woohoo Ubuntu on all desktops at school by 2012 :)
<popey> This seems like a great way to start that career
<hajni> linux is scarcely used in schools now in hungary
<popey> ok, any more questions drubin highvoltage stgraber ?
<drubin> Nope I am ready to vote.
<stgraber> nope, ready to vote
<highvoltage> ready!
<popey> [VOTE] on Ubuntu membership for hajni
<MootBot> Please vote on:  on Ubuntu membership for hajni.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<drubin> +1
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<highvoltage> + 1 [ loco team involvement including release party organisation participating in global jam events and localised documentation documentation]
<popey> Great great work!
<drubin> you need a +1 highvoltage
<highvoltage> +1 [ loco team involvement including release party organisation participating in global jam events and localised documentation documentation]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +1
<highvoltage> sorry, something goes wrong with copying and pasting there
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<popey> Awesome!
<drubin> congrats
<popey> Congratulations hajni
<hajni> thank you very much
<AlanBell> Congratulations hajni, you are the 32nd woman to be awarded Ubuntu Membership and that has brought the overall percentage above 5% for the first time!
<popey> keep doing great work!
<highvoltage> hajni: congratulations and welcome!
<toros> congratulations hajni! :)
<popey> look forward to seeing the results at the next UDS!
<hajni> highvoltage: thanks
<popey> added to ~ubuntumembers
<popey> Ok, UndiFineD you're up!
<UndiFineD> I am here :)
<UndiFineD> hello everyone, I am known as UndiFineD, Keimpe de Jong for real.
<UndiFineD> Some of you I have already chatted with in the past.
<UndiFineD> I work on many projects at once.
<UndiFineD> I develop a KPI toolkit, since during UDS-N I was asked for it by Chris Gregan.
<UndiFineD> I want to improve Simon Listens voice recognition as an accessability tool, besides that I also work on Voxforge.
<UndiFineD> I spend a few hours weekly translating into dutch (NL).
<UndiFineD> I am involved with Ubuntu-Tour, an application to show beginners around the desktop.
<UndiFineD> I spend some time testing for Maverick.
<UndiFineD> Last week I joined the Beginners Team, because I was asked to,
<UndiFineD> I found out I could get some guidance on learning Python and so I pedro became my teacher.
<UndiFineD> Worked myself through his 5 classes in 2 days.
<UndiFineD> :)
<pedro3005> I can confirm (should I be speaking?) that
<highvoltage> UndiFineD: your wiki didn't mention anything about contributing to ubuntu-tour or testing
<popey> pedro3005: sure, we welcome input :)
<UndiFineD> highvoltage, I will update
<highvoltage> UndiFineD: what's your nick on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ ? I would like to see what kind of testing you have done
<drubin> highvoltage: Yes it does. at least the ubuntu-tour stuff
<UndiFineD> highvoltage, I am not sure, could be UndiFineD or k.dejong
<highvoltage> "I can be annoying pain in the butt for doing things differently. I am best known for my weird humor nobody seems to understand."
<highvoltage> UndiFineD: would you say that you are able to work well with others?
<UndiFineD> yes I do think so
<highvoltage> what do you do differently that makes you a "pain in the butt"?
<UndiFineD> I have ADD, so I jump around much in my head, which is why things do not always happen as planned, but they do happen
<highvoltage> we have lots of Ubuntu contributors who have attention problems, it's never a valid excuse for not getting along with others, though
<UndiFineD> true :)
 * highvoltage has no further questions
<popey> Would you consider yourself more interested in development, support or translations? where is your main focus?
<UndiFineD> I do all at once
<popey> I guess you have a lot of time on your hands at the moment :S
<UndiFineD> i do , unemployed atm
<popey> What's your plan for the Beginners Team?
<UndiFineD> which is why I am on IRC all the time
<UndiFineD> duanedesign, asked me, said they need more leaders in the future
<popey> ok, so no specific plans right now
<UndiFineD> no :)
<drubin> UndiFineD: I can vouch for him being online and helping in #ubuntu-beginners
<popey> ok
<popey> any further questions drubin / stgraber / highvoltage ?
<drubin> that was directed and others.
<highvoltage> nope
<drubin> nope.
<stgraber> nope
<popey> ok..
<popey> [VOTE] on Ubuntu membership for UndiFineD
<MootBot> Please vote on:  on Ubuntu membership for UndiFineD.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<highvoltage> -1 [ insufficient evidence of sustained and significant contributions, need to work better within existing ubuntu community ]
<MootBot> -1 received from highvoltage. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<stgraber> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from stgraber. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<popey> -1 I would like to see you come back after maybe 3 months of solid contribution to one (or more) of the teams you're interested in helping
<MootBot> -1 received from popey. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
<drubin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 1 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 3 against. 0 abstained. Total: -2
<popey> ok, sorry, not this time UndiFineD
<UndiFineD> that is ok, I will continue the good work
<popey> great stuff!
<drubin> UndiFineD: please do and come back in a few months
<popey> ok, I'll send out a mail announcing the new members
<popey> anything anyone else has to say before I end it?
<highvoltage> thanks popey
<popey> np
<drubin> popey: thanks for chairing.
<stgraber> nope, nothing to add. Thanks for chairing.
<popey> cool
<popey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:56.
 * popey edits the wiki
<popey> why do I always spot typos in wiki pages just after pressing Saver
<popey> -r
<drubin> wiki law.
<popey> gah now I get HTTP 500 from the wiki
<popey> i think i broke it
<popey> phew
<drubin> I broke LP 20 seconds ago. I think it is time to call it a nigh.
<popey> heh
<popey> wise words!
<drubin> Thanks for chairing again. bye
 * persia wonders if there is a meeting today (21:00 UTC first Tuesday)
<ajmitch> persia: for asia/oceania?
<persia> ajmitch, For CC.  This would be a bad time for large chunks of Asia (although less bad for Oceania)
<ajmitch> fine for NZ & many pacific islands, but there don't seem to be many applicants from there
<persia> It isn't rare that I think that's related to common metting times.
<ajmitch> the fridge calendar is showing 10pm for the CC meeting for me
<ajmitch> thought the wiki page states 21:00 UTC
<persia> DST just needs to be abolished worldwide.
<pleia2> I think it should have started 20 minutes ago
<pleia2> but I don't think we actually have an agenda this time :)
<persia> pleia2, There's still bug #605909 listed on the agenda, although it's been discussed before
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605909 in virt-manager (Ubuntu) "[maverick] virt-manager.py crashed with signal 5 in _XError() (dup-of: 599450)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605909
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 599450 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "[apparmor] getattr handled incorrectly in 2.6.35-6.7" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/599450
<persia> Err, bug #605969
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605969 in Ubuntu Website "Redirect /employment to webapps.ubuntu.com/employment" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605969
<pleia2> yeah, that was discussed
 * persia thinks there just isn't a meeting today after all
 * pleia2 nods
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-03
<mvo> hi
<mvo> sorry robbiew for missing the mumble call, this week we changed from daytime-saving back so I thought it was 1h later
<robbiew> mvo: no worries...you're fired
<robbiew> :P
<mvo> *arrr*
<cjwatson> mvo: like anyone else was in it anyway. :)
<mvo> all fired!
<barry> mumble fail
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
<robbiew> :)
<ev> lol
<barry> best meeting EVAR
<robbiew> \o/
<mvo> lol
<robbiew> mvo: on mumble, if you want to join
 * cjwatson quotefiles
<highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting going to start around 5 minutes late  (sorry)
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> hey sbalneav
<highvoltage> hey it's sbalneav!
<sbalneav> present.
<highvoltage> I added most of the items from UDS to our roadmap page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<highvoltage> it includes some important dates, milestones and the work items for those milestones
<highvoltage> it will probably expand a bit over the next few weeks and the milestone items will probably even out at least a bit
<highvoltage> edubuntu-council members are expiring end of 2010, so we'll need to contact the CC for the EC elections/re-elections/re-confirmation/(whatever-it-will-be)
<highvoltage> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-council/+members#active
 * stgraber is getting something to drink. Speaking for 2 hours in a very warm conference room really kills you.
<highvoltage> I just did that too :)
<highvoltage> I sent an e-mail out to the current EC, just so that we'll know who still wants to be on it for when we email the CC
<mgariepy> hello
<highvoltage> ideally we'd want as many people to stay on it as possible
<highvoltage> howdy marc
<highvoltage> nixternal: are you around?
<stgraber> hey lak
<stgraber> alkisg
<alkisg> Hi all
<stgraber> (autocomplete mistake ;))
<highvoltage> I didn't get any answer from that email yet, if I don't by tomorrow I'll just start poking everyone with a very, very sharp stick
<sbalneav> Owing to my personal life, my involvement for the last 6 months was sucktastic.  I'd be more than happy to stay on, as I *DO* want to get back into the swing of things (my lack of participation wasn't due to lack of interest on my part).  That having been said, if someone else wanted my spot, I'd be more than happy to surrender my spot to free up space for someone else.  I'm planning on being in for the long haul, and I don't 
<highvoltage> sbalneav: IRC cut you off after "and I don't..."
<highvoltage> sbalneav: but I think the gist of it is there, and I can't speak for everyone but I for one am glad to have you onboard there and I think everyone else is too!
<sbalneav> need official titles to keep me interested :)
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> we can even make up a few if you want?
<sbalneav> Cheif cook and bottle washer seems to be the one that suits me most in my life :)
<highvoltage> I was thinking more in terms of something that includes beer and pizza in the title, but we need that position filled as well, so why not :)
<stgraber> hehe
<highvoltage> we didn't have much planned for this meeting, it's our first one after UDS though
<stgraber> anyway, based on the list of members in edubuntu-members on LP and the current EC members, I don't think it's going to change much. We just want to know who still wants to be on board, so we can merge that to the list of people who'd like to join and send that to the CC for final decision
<highvoltage> stgraber: we don't need to write up any specifications, right? is there anything pending approval?
<stgraber> that should be a quick and easy process, so we have the EC renewed for a year and can continue our work
<stgraber> highvoltage: we might need to update and assign some of our specs, but that's about what's needed at this stage
<highvoltage> ok, great.
<stgraber> highvoltage: I don't know if you worked on the work items yet, that'd be something good to have in the blueprint whiteboard
<highvoltage> I guess it's also worth mentioning (if anyone else missed it perhaps) that next UDS will be in Budapest, Hungary
<stgraber> but it's really details as we already know who's going to work on it and don't have dependencies on other teams except cjwatson and ev for the installer issue
 * mhall119 is looking forward to a european trip
<highvoltage> mhall119: yeah!
<mhall119> highvoltage: do they allow South Africans in Hungary?
<highvoltage> mhall119: it's in the schengen area so getting a visa will be easy :)
<mhall119> schengen?
<stgraber> hey mhall119, did you get the answers you needed from Dylan on Friday ? I didn't really see you much after that.
<mhall119> stgraber: I did, but I'm working mostly by memory now, he put me on the right track at least
<mhall119> wish I had something to take notes on that night
<highvoltage> mhall119: not sure what exactly it means but it covers a bunch of european countries, I used it before to travel to france/spain
<stgraber> mhall119: cool
<mhall119> highvoltage: oh good
<highvoltage> mhall119: and the US visa stuff will be easier next time, so next time in Orlando should be easy too!
<stgraber> highvoltage: that's all countries that signed the schengen-dublin agreement for exchange of goods and people traveling through the schengen area
<mhall119> hopefully there will be a next time in Orlando too
<highvoltage> mhall119: aparently there will be
<mhall119> that's the rumor
<mhall119> I haven't heard it confirmed yet
<stgraber> we'll probably know more at next uds
<highvoltage> yup
<highvoltage> anything we need to cover for this meeting? at this stage I feel all talked-out and just want to do stuff :)
<mhall119> so there will remain the "2d" gnome session in 11.04, so the big question for the qimo session will be gconf->dconf issues
<mhall119> I assume those will hit sabayon and other parts of Edubuntu as well
<highvoltage> indeed.
<highvoltage> mhall119: have you looked at dconf at all?
<mhall119> I'm not sure how to start testing that, can I just install gnome3 packages inside a maverick vm?
<mhall119> highvoltage: not yet
<mhall119> I just got to where I kind of understood gconf :(
<highvoltage> "Having all of the keys in a single compact binary format also avoids the intense fragmentation problems currently experienced by the tree-of-directories-of-xml-files approach."
<highvoltage> ugh
<highvoltage> having everything in one binary caused lots of problems in the Windows registry in the first versions of Windows that used it, hopefully gnome will handle it more elegantly :)
<highvoltage> (that's on http://live.gnome.org/dconf btw)
<mhall119> yeah, it'll at least support stacking different dconf sources
<mhall119> also http://library.gnome.org/devel/gio/2.25/ch26.html
<mhall119> "Migrating from GConf to GSettings"
<highvoltage> heh, stgraber just talked about that
<highvoltage> (well, IRL)
<highvoltage> mhall119: I have no idea how you currently plan to do the qimo stuff (time-wise)
<highvoltage> mhall119: but I guess a lot of things will become somewhat clearer towards alpha 1
<mhall119> highvoltage: neither do I
<mhall119> I'd like to get a quick and dirty qimo-session-gnome working as soon as I can, then clean it up over the rest of the cycle
<mhall119> it'll kind of depend on when gnome3 lands in 11.04 though
<highvoltage> mhall119: I think we should target to have at least a working qimo gnome session in there by alpha 2, since feature freeze happens a few weeks after that
<mhall119> will alpha1 have gnome2 or gnome3?
<highvoltage> I don't know, I hope that it contains at least most of the important parts
<mhall119> guess we'll find out
<mhall119> I already made a working custom session in gnome2
<mhall119> it's just not been configured to be Qimo-like
<highvoltage> ok, most of that work should still work in gnome3 at least.
<mhall119> we may have to support both gconf and dconf in the next release, there's a bunch of apps that don't look to have been ported
<highvoltage> mhall119: from what I understand from what stgraber explained to me, if you use gsettings then it shouldn't matter
<mhall119> right, but for me I have to separate the configs of multiple apps between Qimo sessions and Gnome sessions
<mhall119> if some apps are still using gconf, instead of gsettings, I've got to provide separate stores for both
<highvoltage> ok, I didn't realise you modify application settings as well
<mhall119> I modify some of their default, specifically the gnome panels and nautilus desktop manager parts
<highvoltage> mhall119: can I get it from a ppa or a branch or something?
<highvoltage> well gnome-panel and nautilus should be fine
<mhall119> highvoltage: no, I've just been hacking stuff in a vm so far
<highvoltage> ok
<mhall119> it's very crude, more just to prove that a qimo-gnome-session is possible
<highvoltage> mhall119: well, one thing you could perhaps do so long is clone that vm and dist-upgrade it to natty and roll with the updates and see what breaks already
<mhall119> true, I'll give that a go
<highvoltage> let's move over to #edubuntu, I guess we have nothing left that we need to do in meeting space :)
<barry> james_w, slangasek, thumper, ajmitch ready for our meeting?
<james_w> hola
 * slangasek waves
<barry> poolie seems to be offline
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:02. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * james_w apologies as he will have to leave before the hour mark
<thumper> ah...
<thumper> is this the time we had it last time?
<ajmitch> it is
<barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101103
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101103
<james_w> I'm pretty sure
<flacoste> me
<barry> utc-wise, yes :)
<flacoste> barry: poolie is
<barry> flacoste: hi!
 * ajmitch is here, though I'd forgotten about it
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>    * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c
<barry>  
<barry> not done
<barry>    * barry to talk to dholbach about making sure udd is well advertised in pkg guide
<barry>  
<barry> i did talk a little to dholbach about this at one of the many uds sessions.  james_w was probably there too (as was poolie).  he wants to promote/document udd we just have to figure out how to do this
<barry> so i think this item is "done" though there's probably a future action item about actually helping dholbach with the integration
<barry> james_w: your thoughts?
<james_w> indeed
<james_w> barry, I agree with barry
<barry> cool
<barry>    * poolie to start list thread to find problems which can be carried on at UDS
<barry>  
<barry> i think this is not done
<persia> Just as a note on historical practices, it might be better to take an action to write the docs in consultation with dholbach, rather than helping him with them.
<barry> persia: i figure it will us writing the bulk of the docs and daniel helping to integrate them
<barry> well, poolie's action item is probably moot now, but i'll leave it on the agenda until he says otherwise
<barry> [TOPIC]  * UDS post-mortem
<barry>  
<MootBot> New Topic:   * UDS post-mortem
<barry> just a quick apology for letting two of our sessions get lost in the shuffle.  after talking with robbiew about rescheduling due to poolie's travel adventures, i lost track of the sessions and realized too late that the education and user feedback sessions didn't get rescheduled :(  i take the blame for that
<barry> we did have a good planning session though i thought
<barry> we need to get poolie's notes into the blueprint though because gobby was down at the time
<barry> i'll take an action item to check with him on that
<barry> [ACTION] barry to ask poolie to put his session notes in the blueprint
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to ask poolie to put his session notes in the blueprint
<barry> does anybody else have any feedback on uds?
<james_w> I found it very useful
<james_w> there was better feedback than previous UDS, so I think that it's something people are thinking about much more
<james_w> unfortunately though there are still plenty of hurdles
<barry> true.  on the positive side, i've heard we may have a really stellar candidate for the job opening
<james_w> excellent
<barry> i also think the planning session was really excellent.  great feedback from folks like slangasek
<slangasek> sorry I couldn't attend the whole session, but glad my feedback was helpful
<barry> any other thoughts on uds?
<barry> flacoste: we missed you and illuminati :)
<barry> [TOPIC] top bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  top bugs
<james_w> the session identified some focii for the various teams, but didn't really get them all assigned, do we need to work on that?
<james_w> whoops, sorry
<jelmer> 'evening
<barry> jelmer: hi!
<james_w> hi jelmer
<flacoste> barry: i should be at the next one :-)
<barry> james_w: we do, but i think poolie's got the list so i think we have to wait for him
<barry> flacoste: \o/
<barry> here's the pre-uds list.  i guess next time we can consolidate them with the list from the session:
<barry> * bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek)
<barry>    * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/295274|(watch file support)]] - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n
<barry>    * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307|Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys]]
<barry>    * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395|bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 295274 in bzr-builddeb "merge-upstream shouldn't require --version when debian/watch is present" [High,Triaged]
<barry>    * changelog merge problem (probably caused by dpkg-mergechangelogs).  need more investigation by barry
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 603395 in Bazaar "bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags" [High,In progress]
<barry> james_w: and i looked at the watch file bug and i made notes.  hopefully i can understand them now that uds is over and make some progress on the bug
<slangasek> james_w: any status change on bug #653832? 696 failed imports :/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 653832 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with "trying to import version ... again"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832
<persia> For the watchfile thing: probably best to check for debian/rules get-orig-source: before trusting it
<james_w> slangasek, yes, at least in the gourmet case, did it ever get retried?
<slangasek> james_w: it was retried before you commented that the bug was "harder than you thought"
<barry> persia: right
<slangasek> not retried after that, is that the next step?
<james_w> slangasek, ok, I'll retry now
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<james_w> slangasek, it may well stamp on your revisions in that branch though :-(
<slangasek> fwiw, gourmet is far from the only interesting package in that list
<james_w> indeed
<slangasek> ah, well, I guess I'll cope :)
<barry> any other feedback on top bugs?
<james_w> spiv seemed to have a good handle on the corruption in bug 653307, but not exactly how it came about
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307
<barry> excellent
<james_w> he said that the easiest fix might be to re-import all of those branches
<ScottK> barry: I'd like to see someone tackle Bug #499684 sooner rather than later as the more users there are, the harder it will be to change to something better.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499684 in bzr-builddeb "Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499684
<barry> ScottK: yeah, we talked about that at uds.  the -- is really ugly :/
<ScottK> Yep
<barry> ScottK: i'll put that on the top bugs list
<jelmer> james_w: do you know whether it's easily possible to support not explicitly declared options in a bzr subcommand?
<james_w> jelmer, I do not. It's probably not that much work to add
<james_w> I got bored of trying to add them explicitly, mainly because trying to explain the meaning of things like -su vs. -sa is really hard
<barry> james_w: where is -su documented?  i don't see it in dpkg-genchanges
<barry> (manpage)
<james_w> sorry, I mean -si
 * barry nods
<barry> moving on...
<barry> [TOPIC]  * USA leaves DST
<MootBot> New Topic:   * USA leaves DST
<james_w> plus I think they are interface warts, so I'm not pleased about inheriting them
<barry> it would be best if users didn't need to worry about them at all, but i don't know if that's possible
<james_w> indeed
<barry> i mention the dst thing because the meeting will be an hour earlier local time for me.  it's still fine, but i wanted to give folks a chance to chime in if the current 2100 utc meeting time has become inconvenient for them
<james_w> it still works for me
<slangasek> fine for me
<james_w> and this time is better for our antipodean friends
<barry> cool.  no change necessary then
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Pushing changes to Debian (python-cheetah use case)
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Pushing changes to Debian (python-cheetah use case)
<barry> i bring this up because it's something i'm thinking about now and it's a use case we should address
<barry> but we don't need to solve it here
<barry> basically: i fixed python-cheetah in the ubuntu source branch but we really should get the changes into debian.  i don't know that udd has a good story for that yet
<james_w> something like submittodebian?
<barry> james_w: something like that, yeah.  there is bug reporting via email involved
<barry> reportbug on ubuntu does not make debian developers happy
<james_w> shouldn't be too hard to generate the diff
<james_w> emailing is perhaps a trickier fish, though perhaps we just modify and rely on submittodebian
<slangasek> you mean we can't just push to lp:debian/$package and have Debian build from branch? <g,d,r>
<barry> slangasek: :-D
<barry> james_w: oh.  submittodebian(1)  \o/
<james_w> heh
<barry> james_w: looks very interesting, and i'll give that a try with python-cheetah
<jelmer> a "bzr submittodebian" that takes into account common ancestors etc might be nice
<persia> Might be nice to have three stories: 1) pushing a change to the BTS, 2) committing a change to Vcs-*, 3) push to lp:debian/foo and upload package
<barry> would pushing to lp:debian/foo get clobbered when the change lands in debian and gets imported back into launchpad?
<persia> Wouldn't that have the same handling as when folk push to lp:ubuntu/foo and then upload now?
<slangasek> jelmer: I did hack submittodebian a while back to notice when it was on a bzr branch and attempt to DTRT
<slangasek> could stand to be improved some, yes
<jelmer> slangasek: ah, that's probably even nicer than adding yet another (sub)command.
<barry> otoh having it as a subcommand makes it more discoverable perhaps
<jelmer> persia: supporting push to lp:debian/foo would require us to have a Debian build environment on Launchpad
<jelmer> persia: support push to lp:debian/foo and build, that is
<james_w> well, in some sense push as well right now
<james_w> ACL are tied to upload rights
<james_w> unfortunately I have to leave now, sorry
<james_w> thanks everyone
<jelmer> Thanks James
 * slangasek waves
<barry> that was very helpful, thanks.  i'll add my experience to the wiki and file a bug for a new feature
<barry> thanks james_w
<barry> we're basically done anyway
<barry> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<barry> do you have anything else not on the agenda?
<persia> jelmer, I meant the build to be done on the local machine where the developer has the necessary key to upload to Debian: I doubt any DDs would trust those to LP.
<jelmer> persia: Ah, ok
<jelmer> persia: Yeah, I wouldn't trust them to /any/ remote machine.
<persia> For some definition of remote.  I know several who don't trust them to laptops, and use debsign -r against trusted machines that may not be local (but are housed in a trusted environment)
<persia> (or debrsign, depending)
<barry> anything else for today?
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:48.
<barry> thanks everyone.  see you in two weeks
<slangasek> thanks!
<ajmitch> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-04
<bilalakhtar> .channel list
<bilalakhtar> Sorry for that
<godbyk> Morning, thorwil.
<thorwil> hi godbyk
<thorwil> godbyk: what was the utc time of the meetings again?
<godbyk> Um.. 5 minutes ago. :)
<godbyk> I just pinged mpt to see if he's going to join us.
<godbyk> I haven't see anyone else around yet.
<godbyk> haven't seen, rather.
<godbyk> (It's gonna be a bad typing day..)
<godbyk> Hey, wers.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-07
<Seeker`> o/
<Pici> hi
<Seeker`> jussi: ikonia: About?
<ikonia> hi
<jussi> moment pls
<IdleOne> Hello
<Seeker`> just waiting on jussi, then I think we can start?
<Seeker`> woo, 2 seconds of lag
<jussi> hi all
<Pici> howdy
<IdleOne> heyas
<topyli> hi, forgot to watch the watch
<jussi> right. so who is leading this meeting? Seeker`?
<Seeker`> jussi: fancy using mootbot? My connection appears to be doing strange things
<jussi> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:06. The chair is jussi.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Seeker`> Basically, to start, can we have a clear, concise defintion of the current plans for the core-ops team, as well as confirmation as to whether it is simply a plan, or has it been passed by the IRCC?
<jussi> [topic]Basically, to start, can we have a clear, concise defintion of the current plans for the core-ops team, as well as confirmation as to whether it is simply a plan, or has it been passed by the IRCC?
<MootBot> New Topic: Basically, to start, can we have a clear, concise defintion of the current plans for the core-ops team, as well as confirmation as to whether it is simply a plan, or has it been passed by the IRCC?
<jussi> As I understand it, this is something the IRCC had planned last cycle, but havent implemented yet.
<ikonia> as a council member I'd expect better than "as I understand"
<ikonia> I want a clear definition of the status
<Seeker`> By planned do you mean "Written a draft" or "agreed upon"?
<Seeker`> And, if it is the latter, when was it agreed upon? (as per my email on wednesday)
<jussi> Right. So, it has been agreed upon, last cyle, at UDS. You can find the definition of a core op on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<Seeker`> Ok. Is there a defintion of the function of a core-op?
<ikonia> according to that wiki, it's an operator of the core channels, that's it
<jussi> Seeker`: inthe document I mentioned I beleive it shows what it is.
<ikonia> or "a" core channel
<topyli> ikonia: well that is it
<Seeker`> "A Core Operator is someone who has operator status in all of the Ubuntu core channels."?
<ikonia> jussi: so confirm, it is an operator who is an operatin in "a" core channel
<ikonia> ahh, All of the core channels
<jussi> ikonia: no. it is. A Core Operator is someone who has operator status in all of the Ubuntu core channels.
<ikonia> jussi: then there are no current core ops
<jussi> Operators in the the Ubuntu Core operator Team will be required to mentor new operators.
<jussi> This means when a new operator is appointed, an Ubuntu Core operator will be assigned to them as a mentor to help, guide and answer any specific questions.
<jussi> ikonia: correct.
<ikonia> ok
<Seeker`> jussi: Is there a good reason for not having all users that are an operator on *A* core channel being given access on *all* core channel? (Possibly after  a probation period, as appropriate)
<Pici> I suggested that recently... somewhere...
<Pici> I forget when and where.
<jussi> Seeker`: In my opinion yes. This is what I was so adamant about at UDS. Different channels operate differently, -offtopic is different to #u, Kubuntu channels are different again. I dont think we should be giving every op in one of the core chans access in all of them without thinking if they are suited for the purpose or even want that responsibility
<ScottK> Seeker`: Some people have access on particular channels, but don't care to be involved in others.
<ikonia> so then the definition of a core-op is wrong
<topyli> well the bottom line is, it would be useful for emergencies (and any op knows an emergency when they see one. but a #ubuntu op won't necessarily know what -devel is like
<jussi> ikonia: how so?
<Seeker`> jussi: so, to be clear, someone that is a core-op will have a duty to be intimately familiar with the operation on each and every channel on the core channels list?
<Seeker`> jussi: and, furthermore, is there anyone that currnetly meets that definition?
<topyli> Seeker`: that's incorrect
<topyli> i would suggest no such duty. they would have ops on all channels so they can aid in emergencies
<ikonia> jussi: well, it's an operator that has +o in all the core channels, yet you've just said that people can have ops in a core channel but not be suitable for another core channel. So will core channels have core channel ops and non-core channel ops ?
<ikonia> what you appear to actually be suggesting is 2 teirs, a senior op and a standard op
<jussi> ikonia: A Core Operator is someone who has operator status in all of the Ubuntu core channels.
<jussi> A Channel Specific Operator is an operator who has access in one or more core channels, but not all.
<Seeker`> topyli: not based on what jussi just said. If the reason that an op can't be given access to all channels is because the channels operate differently, a core-op will have to understand the operation of each of the core channels before they can be given the core-op status.
<ikonia> ok, lets step back
<jussi> Now, May I point you all to read my email to the list about 1/2 hour ago, as it affects this situation.
<topyli> we have different [topics] here, Seeker`
<ikonia> 1.) are the council all in agreement of what a core op is
<ikonia> yes/no
<ScottK> Seeker`: I have +o on some channels.  I have no interest in it being global.
<Seeker`> ScottK: you don't have to use +o on channels that you don't want to.
<ScottK> Seeker`: That's correct.  It's nothing to do with needing to learn stuff.
<topyli> ikonia: as documented on the wiki, yes
<Pici> topyli: agreed.
<ikonia> topyli: ok, so the definition on the wiki is all 5 members agreement of a core op
<ikonia> excellent, that's one thing clarified
<Pici> But I'm not sure I *like* the current incarnation.
<Seeker`> jussi: I don't see anything that directly affects the definition or duties of a core op in that email, just what channels people are expected to hang out in.
<ikonia> Pici: noted, but with al 5 of you agreeing on what a core op is, is there a reason this hasn't been implemented/started
<jussi> Seeker`: I dont see a need for "core ops". In that definition, there are no core chans, and no core ops.
<jussi> ikonia: Its been about how you become a core op (form my perspective)
<ikonia> jussi: how do you ?
<Seeker`> jussi: your email only says that the scope of -ops is extended across the namespace, not that the current, agreed upon definition of a core op will go away.
<jussi> ikonia: you abpply to the ircc. However, Im talking about the criteria required for us to say yes.
<jussi> Both types of operators are required to follow the requirements set out in this document. The process to become a Core Operator is the same as for a Channel Specific Operator, except for the following:
<jussi> To apply to become a Core Operator, you must first be an active operator in one, or more, of the core channels.
<ikonia> jussi: ok, so this is anothe application thing
<Seeker`> jussi: do core-ops have to be intimately familiar with the operation in each and every one of the core channels? yes or no?
<IdleOne> The culture in all the core channels should be the same if they all follow the same set of guidelines.
<Pici> In my opinion the basic definition of a core op is defined, but not the full expectations and responsibilities.
<ikonia> IdleOne: the culture of all channels within the ubuntu name space should be the sanme
<ScottK> jussi: Just to be clear: This isn't the only way one can become a channel op.  I don't think Kubuntu gave away it's ability to appoint ops when they let the IRCC in.
<IdleOne> ikonia: agreed
<jussi> ScottK: thats correct.
<IdleOne> so that would mean that any op from any channel should be able to op in any other channel.
<ScottK> OK.
<ikonia> ScottK: then that makes a joke of the recruitment processs
<jussi> Seeker`: do you want my opinion or the ircc?
<Seeker`> jussi: the ircc.
<bilalakhtar> Is this the IRCC meeting?
<ikonia> ScottK: to become an op you have to go through the recruitment process
<ikonia> yes
<topyli> it is?
<bilalakhtar> I have applied to be an op for #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic
<ScottK> ikonia: I'm not required to care.  Kubuntu Council gave IRCC access to Kubuntu channels and can take it away if IRCC interferes too much.
<jussi> Seeker`: thats an unanswerable question givent your format of answers.
<ikonia> ScottK: then the goverence is broken
<IdleOne> bilalakhtar: this meeting is not for approving ops.
<ikonia> ScottK: not that I disagree, but this is pointless process
<ScottK> ikonia: I'm fine with going back to the old way where Kubuntu ran it's old channels.
<tsimpson> ikonia: the IRCC can't go stepping over other councils, and we don't intend to
<ikonia> you have to go through th process of becoming an op, unless you don't want to in which case the kubuntu team can just pick you
<ScottK> old/own
<Seeker`> jussi: it isn't an question that can have any other answer than yes or no. Either you have to be intimately familiar with the operaiton of every channel on the list or you dont
<ikonia> tsimpson: yes it can
<ikonia> tsimpson: you ARE responsible for the name space
<tsimpson> no, it can't
<ikonia> take responsability for the channels, or remove them from the name space
<Pici> Both councils should respect each other.
<ikonia> kubuntu is the project, not the IRC ]
<ikonia> either it complys with the ubuntu council's IRC policy or there is no point
<Seeker`> jussi: which is it?
<ScottK> ikonia: No problem.  We'll move to OFTC.  We've done it before.
<ikonia> ScottK: I'm not calling you for it at all, i just don't see the point of having an IRC council running the channels....unless other don't want it to
<IdleOne> Hold on, this is not about pushing any part of the community away
<ikonia> it is either responsible for the namespace, or it's not
<tsimpson> no, Kubuntu should not have to move to OFTC. I think it's perfectly acceptable the the IRCC and Kubuntu council can work together
<topyli> Seeker`: nobody is going to answer such a question now
<Seeker`> topyli: why not?
<ScottK> tsimpson: I agree.
<jussi> Seeker`: neither. its undecided.
<ikonia> tsimpson: it's not working together
<ikonia> tsimpson: it's following the process, unless it doesn't want to
<Seeker`> jussi: So over 6 months after the term was agreed upon, the conditions of gaining the position still haven't been defined?
<Seeker`> Do you not think that is in the least bit ridiculous?
<tsimpson> ikonia: ok, so we can have #kubuntu--*, but there will be no Kubuntu people there, great
<Pici> Yes. I think its very ridiculous.  And I think that we need to get back on the horse.
<ikonia> tsimpson: well, what's the point of having the council if the kubuntu community can ignore it
<ikonia> tsimpson: so you have a channel that does what it wants "great"
<Pici> ikonia: We need to work together. Just like the other Ubuntu teams do.  We're not in charge of them and they're not in charge of us.
<tsimpson> ikonia: no, we work together. not because we impose restriction on each other, but because we choose to co-operate
<ikonia> Pici: but you are defining policies that can be ignored
<ikonia> what's the point ?
<Seeker`> jussi: ok, at the moment there are core-channels and non-core channels. non-core channels (generally loco channels) are responsible for appointing their own ops, whereas core channels are done by the ircc. How will the appointing of ops be managed without the distinction between core and non-core channels? Will the IRCC be responsible for appointing loco ops?
<topyli> i'm unable to follow this. what's the topic?
<ikonia> we go through weeks of definingin this pointless recruitemnt proces that cannot be broke, oooh...unless kubuntu wants to
<ikonia> topyli: my fault, sorry - I'll shut up, but I will raise and progress this
<topyli> have we established what a core op is? i think we have. can we have another topic?
<IdleOne> have we established what a core channel is?
<Seeker`> topyli: We have estabilished that a core op in an op in all core channels. Thats about it
<SPooN> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU9-TRVbhkE
<Seeker`> IdleOne: yes
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU9-TRVbhkE
<topyli> Seeker`: ok
<Pici> Seeker`: No.  But we can work with the Loco Council if we think an operator should be removed?
<Pici> er, -?
<topyli> IdleOne: yes
<ikonia> SPooN: if thats your participation in a meeting - don't speak again
<Pici> SPooN: Seriously? You're spamming a link in a meeting of IRC operators?
<ikonia> SPooN: this is supposed to be a meeting and you pointing stupid links is crazy and not wewlcome
<ikonia> welcome
<Seeker`> Pici: So how do you define which channels the IRCC is responsible for appointing ops in without the core-channel definition?
<SPooN> ikonia, Pici: definition of spamming.
<ikonia> SPooN: stop now, your doing other ubuntu channels, stop it
<Seeker`> jussi: ^
<SPooN> you're?
<IdleOne> remove him please
<IdleOne> ok.
<Seeker`> jussi: So how do you define which channels the IRCC is responsible for appointing ops in without the core-channel definition?
<Pici> I was under the impression that there was a core channel definition.
<topyli> there is
<ikonia> there is
<Seeker`> -18:21:54- :jussi : Seeker`: I dont see a need for "core ops". In that definition, there are no core chans, and no core ops.
<Pici> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/Scope
<topyli> ages old, and way out of scope of this meeting
<IdleOne> Which channels are core-channels?
<Pici> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/Scope
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/Scope
<Seeker`> Pici: I'm asing jussi about the propsal he sent to the list
<ScottK> Just because IRCC has authority does not necessarily mean they are the sole authority.  That's OK.
<Seeker`> but he seems to have gone quiet
<jussi> Sorry, had to zip off to the WC.
<ikonia> ScottK: I don't disagree, but if you can bypass the processes that are carved in blood because you want to, it makes a mockery of it, however that's not for this meeting, I'll raise it with the council seperatly
<ScottK> ikonia: It's with the Kubuntu Council's permission that the IRCC has any authority in Kubuntu channels.
<ikonia> ScottK: fully understood, I'll raise it and keep you in the loop
<topyli> ScottK: i don't think breaking up our namespace is on the agenda right now
<ikonia> I must leave, apologies
<ScottK> topyli: It is if IRCC insists that in core channels it owns the only process for approving channel ops.
<jussi> Seeker`: please differentiate that proposal from something coming from the IRCC - That one is my ideas. Now, about the IRCC's appointing of ops, Im not exactly sure right now - this is afterall a proposal. I have chatted about it with several people, but I havent yet cleared that exactly in my mind.
<Seeker`> I would like to make a proposal for a change to the definition of a core-op. Please read http://pastebin.com/mM4Rqvp7
<Pici> Seeker`: That proposal hasn't been agreed on or voted on by the IRCC.
<Seeker`> Or, rather, an elaboration of the purpose of a core op.
<Seeker`> WHich seems to be, as yet, undefined.
<jussi> Seeker`: to that I strongly disagree. Which seems to be the issue here.
<Seeker`> jussi: which part do you strongly disagree with? Because the people won't be intimately familiar with the operation of all channels? At present, we can have users sitting there spamming porn and swearing in a channel, and there is nothing we can do about it because there aren't the right ops active. That doesn't come down to channel-specific discresion, it is clearly wrong.
<Seeker`> If core-ops start abusing the system, people will complain. At which point, the IRCC can reassess their suitability to be an op. If noone abuses it, it isn't a problem.
<jussi> Seeker`: then we need to recruit more ops for the channels, not dump ops on a few people across a lot of channels.
<tsimpson> remember, in the case of core-ops. one would have to already be an op in a core channel before becoming a core-op
<ScottK> jussi: That may be true, but I think Seeker`'s proposal would help now until we have more.
<Seeker`> jussi: however many you recruit there will still be occasions where noone is active, unless literally everyone has +o.
<tsimpson> there will likely still be occasions where no one is active, even if everyone has +o
<Pici> I like parts of Seeker's suggestion, but I don't think that anyone would apply to become an operator of another channel if they already have +o there.
<tsimpson> for various reasons
<jussi> Seeker`: in which case we have the ircc and freenode staff
<Seeker`> jussi: is the ircc always about? Why do we need to call staff when we have a channel full of ops? Are staff more trusted to understand the operation of channels than ops are?
<topyli> you just said all the ops were inactive at this point
<Seeker`> topyli: all of the ops that have +o in that channel
<tsimpson> I think it was made clear that in "emergency cases" one would not need to be familiar with the inner-social-workings of a channel
<topyli> Seeker`: then the ircc and staff are the next stop
<Pici> I have a question.
<topyli> (lacking core ops)
<Seeker`> We shouldn't be relying on staff to police the channels, especially when there are people active that the IRCC has judged to be suitible ops
<Seeker`> It isn't staff's job to op our channels for us
<topyli> uh, agreed. they handle the whole network
<topyli> (which our channels happen to be on)
<tsimpson> so we should remove staff access from our channels, as it's not their job to act in there?
<Seeker`> topyli: As i understand it, they aren't responsible for the running of individual channels. They are there to stop network trolls
<jussi> Seeker`: thats right. But they are there on the access list in case of emergencies - as I beleive they suggest on their website
<tsimpson> part of the job for staff is acting in emergencies when no channel ops are available, and they have access
<topyli> Seeker`: exactly. now how does this discussion advance our core ops issue?
<IdleOne> tsimpson: we should give the current ops access in the core-channels in case there is a need.
 * Pici sighs
<Seeker`> topyli: Because the exact job of a core-op, or how they are selected, is undefined, and it needs to be defined.
<tsimpson> IdleOne: but when if no ops are available then?
<IdleOne> instead of hoping that there is a staff member
<Seeker`> tsimpson: Then, in that case you call staff
<topyli> Seeker`: now you're talking
<LjL> Pici: don't ask to ask, just ask ;(
<IdleOne> tsimpson: staff goes idle at time also, then what?
<Seeker`> tsimpson: why bother having ops at all? Just call staff?
<Pici> Can we please try to actually make some progress this meeting?
<tsimpson> IdleOne: exactly, we're not going to "fix" the issue of there sometimes being no one available to act
<Pici> LjL: I gave up on that question.
<tsimpson> even if we have everyone on the access list
<IdleOne> the point here is that there is a large pool of ops and it is under utilized.
<topyli> i'm going for a smoke
 * LjL huggles Pici
<Seeker`> Ok, so does the IRCC not trust the ops they have chosen? Are they not convinced of their ability to make reliable judgements?
<IdleOne> I sit idle in most of the core-channels anyway and willing to sit in more channels if needed but my being there and not being able to act in an emergency is a waste of tools
<Seeker`> Anyone on the IRCC care to answer?
<Seeker`> If you trust us, give us ops in all core channels, if not, why do we have +o in any core channels?
<Pici> I personally agree. But I think I'm a minority here.
<Seeker`> tsimpson: jussi: topyli?
<Pici> Either we come up with a decision here or we're back where we started.
<topyli> Seeker`: that question is moot. the council chooses ops they trust
<Seeker`> topyli: so why not trust them to have +o in all core channels?
<IdleOne> So we should be trusted to use our judgment in an emergency
<topyli> Seeker`: is that a suggestion?
<topyli> becasue i'd like one
<Seeker`> topyli: you saw my proposal?
<Pici> I'll suggest it.
<topyli> ok let's set a topic and discuss
<IdleOne> Pici: please suggest it clearly so we have it on the record.
<IdleOne> just so there is no confusion
<topyli> so far i have seen one, all-encompassing, topic, later learned that this is an ircc meeting (?), and understood very little of the rest
<Pici> During their probationary period operators should only have access in one channel. When that period ends, and the IRCC are in agreement, the operator receives access in all the core channels.
<IdleOne> +1
<Seeker`> +1
<jussi> I strongly disagree with this proposal
<IdleOne> a probabtion of 3 months should be long enough to decide
<topyli> -1
<Seeker`> jussi: in one line, on what grounds?
<Seeker`> same to topyli
<Pici> I'd like to hear suggestions for improvement if you disagree.
<tsimpson> if we are considering it, then how about we break it up a little? ie: Ubuntu ops, Kubuntu ops, etc
<tsimpson> (just another suggestion)
<topyli> we'll have a better chance of recruiting any ops at all if we pick people who know a channel well and appoint them there
<jussi> Seeker`: channels are different. different things are "emergencies". Alternate proposal "if" we have core-ops, then the current format "core ops apply, ircc approves"
<LjL> clearly there is an asymmetry between hiring and firing ops. Hiring is easy, removing is many layers of hassle and emotional tumult. Unless we are suggesting the IRCC is omniscient, there are obviously bad ops. Not letting everyone have ops in all channels minimises this
<jussi> LjL: this too.
<Seeker`> LjL: that is the purpose of the probation period. If somene isn't suitable for +o in all channels, they shouldn't have it in any.
<IdleOne> if they are "bad ops" remove the status.
<Pici> Then break -offtopic operators into another group.
<ScottK> It does seem a bit odd that -offtopic is in the definition of core.
<Pici> Those are the only channels where I feel that the operator/user interaction is different.
<topyli> Pici: that could have merit
<jussi> Pici: and #kubuntu-* ? and the devel chans?
<Seeker`> topyli: If someone is capable of opping one core channel, they should be capable of doing it in all of them
<topyli> Seeker`: i disagree
<tsimpson> ScottK: all that means is that the IRCC manages it, rather than it being another "team" of people
<Seeker`> jussi: and what will determine whether someone becomes a core-op or not?
<Pici> jussi: What about them?
<tsimpson> jussi: I would bundle -devel type channel in generally
<topyli> there are at least three distinctive types of channels. devel, support, ot
<Pici> jussi: Do you really think that we handle things differently in #u, compared to #k or #u-devel ?
<Seeker`> topyli: what would make someone suitable for opping one channel and not another?
<tsimpson> I suspect most developers would rather want to develop than worry about IRC management
<tsimpson> Pici: #u is different from #k, yes
<Pici> tsimpson: Can you explain why?
<tsimpson> Pici: for instance, the rules absolutely must be applied in #u, as it is so busy any disruption is felt. that's not the case in #k
<IdleOne> So it's ok time to time for someone to swear in #k?
<tsimpson> no
<tsimpson> but a line or two of offtopic chatter is not as disruptive in #k as it is in #u
<IdleOne> ok but +o in an emergency does not include a little offtopic chatter
<Seeker`> so there are people with +o in some channels they aren't capable of determining whether something is disrupting the channel or not?
<Seeker`> If so, are they really capable ops?
<IdleOne> I consider an emergency something like, racism, excessive swearing, links to porn....
<IdleOne> even when a channel appears to be idle for a long period
<IdleOne> that sort of stuff is unacceptable
<Seeker`> It seems that most of the IRCC has strongly disagreed, then ran away
<topyli> an emergency force would be good, and core ops would be good for that. i think the question is now, should everybody be core then?
<topyli> it does lead to having lots of ops who are never there. is this bad? i don't know
<Seeker`> I get the feeling that the IRCC doesn't actually trust the ops they have, or their own ability to appoint ops that they trust in the future. Not giving people +o in channels because staff exist isn't a good reason for not giving them +o; It is making decisions about running the namespace because there is some sort of backup in the form of an external entitiy, and not relying on people who have volunteered and wish to help ubuntu. Don't give peop
<IdleOne> I don't think so. it leads to having more ops who can respond if needed
<topyli> we would also have lots of idlers with +o who don't know the culture. is this bad? perhaps
<topyli> Seeker`: the council currently nominates people for -ot ops who they trust to be able to work -ot
<Seeker`> topyli: a capable op is able to look at a situation and the channel and determine an appropriate action. If someone isn't capable of reading a situation sufficiently well that they can't do it in more than one channel then they are good ops
<topyli> bad example, as the channel is possibly one of trickiest :)
<Seeker`> It should be clear to ops if a topic is causing discomfort to the users of the channel
<LjL> in your dreamworld
<topyli> i would like it to be clear too. however, i'm afraid it is not
<Seeker`> I'm not suggesting that peopel be given core-ops status so they can just run around with a banhammer. If something gets to the point wher epeople go searching for ops, then the situation needs to be at least looked at.
<Seeker`> If the situation is borderline, people already familiar with the ubuntu namespace opping would be better placed to make a decision than staff
<topyli> i still think emergencies might be the lowest common denominator which we could talk about. those are actually identifiable
<jussi> Ive spoken to a staffer and : when staff already idle in most of the big channels, poking them about a troll/spammer when no OPs are around is perfectly acceptable and done all the time
<IdleOne> So you are completely against adding another layer of security?
<IdleOne> except in the case of applying for core-op status
<Seeker`> jussi: the fact that staff exist is not a good reason for not giving more people +o.
<Seeker`> jussi: As staff exist, do you even need more than 1 op? Or maybe just the IRCC?
<jussi> Seeker`: and I totally agree with giving more people +o, but with the process of certain channels, not just lumping it on everyone
<topyli> agreed. however, i don't think we should define core ops as the sum of core channel operators
<Seeker`> jussi: if people don't want to +o in a channel, they don't have to
<Seeker`> jussi: but at least that way, all operators will have the option to.
<topyli> Seeker`: wait, is that all operators or all core channel operators?
<Seeker`> jussi: your arguments at the moment stink of "We don't trust the ops"
<Seeker`> topyli: all core-channel operators
<topyli> right
<Seeker`> core channel operators should have a better idea of where exactly the line is, even on channels that they raen't usually active on, meaning that they can take more appropriate action to that channel than staff can, which is more like using a canon to kill a spider. core channel ops are probably more likely to take the time to catalyse with a potential problem user than staff will.
<topyli> Seeker`: so you basically share Pici's proposal (or Pici reprhased yours, i don't know). core channel ops are core ops, and they have +o on all core channels (after probation). correct?
<Seeker`> topyli: yes.
<jussi> Seeker`: its similar to the upload rights. if a person applies for per package upload, should we just give him access to all of universe and main? no! if a person wants access to main, they need to apply. same goes here. its not that we dont trust the ops, just that the ops need to apply and be approved, not just lumped across the whole load of channels.
<IdleOne> Why do they need to apply?
<Seeker`> The arguments against this proposal I've seen are 1) Staff exist and 2) Not everyone understands all of the channels. Based on argument 2, staff should not be given access to all core channels, because they don't understand the ins-and-outs of each channel.
<IdleOne> and it isn't a whole load of channels. it's 8-9 channels
<tsimpson> there is a difference between access and emergency-access
<IdleOne> 14 channels sorry
<tsimpson> channels are there own little community
<Seeker`> Either "staff exist" is a valid argument, which means that concerns about people not understanding channels is an invalid argument, or the opposite. Pick one.
<tsimpson> no, no
<tsimpson> there is a difference between access and emergency-access
<topyli> i agree with jussi that it should not be automatic. people should apply for core op status so 1) they show interest and commitment, and 2) to make the ircc aware and force them to review the applicant
<Seeker`> My assertion is that core-channel ops will have a better understanding of the channels and will therefore be able to make better decisions than staff in more borderline cases
<topyli> that doesn't mean it has to be hard to get core op rights
<Seeker`> topyli: there shouldn't be two standards for ops.
<Seeker`> topyli: you shouldn't have "ok ops" and "good ops", you should only have "good ops"
<jussi> How would you then define who has "emergency access" and who are the regular chanops?
<topyli> there should be a process, for the reasons i named there
<Seeker`> Or you will have two standards enforced on all of the channels
<tsimpson> channel ops come from that channel, that community. they are active there and people see and know them
<Seeker`> jussi: a wiki page?
<topyli> no. access is access
<Pici> Then we need to come up with a real process.
<Pici> Saying that 'people can apply' isn't a process.
<Seeker`> topyli: you've had 6 months to come up with a process and failed.
<topyli> creating an LP team and applying for membership is process enough
<Seeker`> jussi: giving all core channel ops +o on all core channels and having a wiki page is easier than maintaining different access lists on each channel.
<topyli> Seeker`: it has not been very urgent apparently
<Seeker`> topyli: so it never gets done until it is urgent?
<tsimpson> Seeker`: we work in urgent things before non-urgent things
<topyli> Seeker`: well someone has to think it's necessary
<topyli> (now)
<Seeker`> topyli: If it isn't necessary, why defined the term int he first place
<Seeker`> "Lets think up a term and define it, just in case someone thinks we might need it at some point in the future"?
<tsimpson> Seeker`: as you said, that's not what happened
<Seeker`> If a job needs to be done, get on with it, if it doesn't then stop giving yourselves more work to do.
<topyli> back then the idea was to create a midlevel team just like the one you seem to want
<Seeker`> topyli: I don't want a mid-level team. I want all core-channel ops to have the same level of access.
<topyli> ok so you have a different idea. you want the original modified
<Seeker`> Same level of technical access that is. Social issues are different, and there should be a social solution to them.
<topyli> again, access is access
<Seeker`> technically, yes. But we have all sorts of social constructs round access. These are currently too complicated or not implemented. I am pushing for a simplified set of social rules around access, while providing better coverage in channels with the existing pool of ops
<topyli> Seeker`: i have to go. could you add the issue (something like pici formulated there ^ or my version, or your own version) and add it to next meeting's agenda?
<jussi> I need to go, my wife is just home and I have other hings to attend to
<topyli> and please make it fathomable :)
<Seeker`> I suggested it over an hour ago, and we havent maanged to get anywhere
<Seeker`> its just jussi saying "I DISAGREE BECAUSE I'M RIGHT" and then disappearing for 10 mins
<tsimpson> Seeker`: I don't think that's appropriate
<Seeker`> and "we trust all of the ops, but not enough to give them +o on all core channels and not abuse it"
<topyli> we have not. i think we have some sort of proposal that might be discussable. that's huge progress over what we had an hour ago
<Seeker`> and "we need more processes"
<topyli> Seeker`: would you do it then?
<Seeker`> topyli: I made the same proposal at the UDS meeting two weeks ago.
<topyli> frankly, i haven't seen a proposal, i have seen rants. the one from 15 minutes ago is better. let's continue from there
<Seeker`> There wasn;t any progress then
<Seeker`> and there wasn't any tonight
<Seeker`> -18:41:55- :       Seeker` : I would like to make a proposal for a change to the definition of a core-op. Please read http://pastebin.com/mM4Rqvp7
<Seeker`> 50 minutes ago.
<tsimpson> there is no process going ahead right now, we have not decided to implement anything
<tsimpson> we'll consider your proposal
<Pici> ...
<Pici> I thought we already considered it.
<Pici> And we started a vote, and two people voted no.
<Seeker`> I don't feel that jussi or topyli will, because they have stated from the time they saw the proposal that they disagree, have just been presenting the same argument over and over again, without listening to other members of the IRCC, or any of the op team that they are meant to represent and support.
<Pici> Then we went off track.
<IdleOne> what was the decision?
<topyli> i only understood it about 15 minutes ago
<Pici> I don't know.
<tsimpson> Pici: i must have missed that part
<Seeker`> They are more interested in building up complexity and process in a council that is already sluggish and unwieldy.
<Pici> And I asked for suggestions on how to fix it and we never got a concrete answer.
<tsimpson> Seeker`: if they disagree, it is their right to do so
<Seeker`> And taking over 6 months for a descision for an environment that is based entirely around real-time interation is stupid
<Seeker`> tsimpson: But they aren't listening to reason, or the people they are supposed to represent
<tsimpson> in your opinion
<Seeker`> I've had countless PMs saying "I agree with you" and noone saying "You are wrong", apart from members of the IRCC
<ScottK> Seeker`: The IRCC needs to represent all of Ubuntu IRC users and not just Ops.
<Seeker`> ScottK: Right now they are doing a whole lot of support for the users and none for the ops. I don't feel supported by the IRCC at all.
<ScottK> Seeker`: OK, but I disagree with your statement that the purpose of the IRCC is to support ops.
<Seeker`> Every attempt by an operator to make prgress on a topic, or get a resolution is met by "Well, we made this decision over 6 months ago, it isn't implemented yet" or "We haven't had time", or various other non-actions
<Seeker`> ScottK: Ok, "One of the functions"
<ScottK> Seeker`: That's fine then.
<Seeker`> It seems that the purpose of the IRCC at the moment is to cause as much hassle and stress for ops as they can, without taking their opinions or needs on board. Everything just has to be done slowly, and with the "appropriate" amount of process.
<IdleOne> Well, thanks to all for coming and listening. endmetting.
<jussi> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:42.
<jussi> (thanks tsimpson)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-31
<Pendulum>  /win 46
<beuno> Pendulum, that's a lot of windows!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-02
<Ursinha> last try
<Ursinha> bug 879589
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879589 in Launchpad itself "adding/removing user/team subscriptions to bug reports edits last_modified date" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879589
<beuno> CC meeting?
<dholbach> hey
<beuno> o/
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  2 22:01:56 2011 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<dholbach> http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/status.xsl
<dholbach> â antigua 2
<dholbach> (if you want to listen in)
<pleia2> #topic Community Council meeting in #ubuntu-uds-Antigua2 shoutcast: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/status.xsl (antigua2)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Council meeting in #ubuntu-uds-Antigua2 shoutcast: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/status.xsl (antigua2)
<pleia2> there we go :)
<AlanBell> vlc http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/antigua2.ogg.m3u
<dholbach> excellent
<pleia2> we're over in #ubuntu-uds-Antigua2
<AlanBell> want the meeting bot in there?
<pleia2> nah
<beuno> I think this is good
<alourie> it's streaming allright
<beuno> yes
<beuno> nobody talk to each other
<beuno> I think people can listen in
<beuno> and type here
<pleia2> #topic Community Council Meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Council Meeting
<pleia2> ok, we just do it here :)
<alourie> we hear you
<alourie> :-)
<czajkowski> Aloha
<AlanBell> I can ask the bot to join the other channel if you want to use the big screen
<pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<dholbach> AlanBell, when you reviewed the list of blogs what did you find?
<AlanBell> not completed the exercise yet, about 400 names compared so far
<beuno> so who's there?
<AlanBell> there do appear to be quite a few that need further review, I can't match easily
<pleia2> last time nigelb handled this, and also added contacts for all the teams (yay!)
<AlanBell> great
<dholbach> AlanBell, thanks a lot for doing this exercise
<akgraner> Ditto thanks AlanBell!
<AlanBell> so I will finish up and share the spreadsheet with the CC for further review
<AlanBell> there might be more you can match than I can
<pleia2> my inbox tells me this was done in June of this year
<beuno> o/  Mark
<AlanBell> e.g. dave.walker==daviey, jono==jonobacon etc
<AlanBell> pleia2: ok, great, I shouldn't find too many then
<pleia2> #topic Add Canonical blog to Ubuntu Planet
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Add Canonical blog to Ubuntu Planet
<beuno> I don;t think we can do that
<beuno> because it's a per-feed setting
<AlanBell> who is the contact person (who is an Ubuntu Member) for voices?
<beuno> (for voices)
<beuno> http://blog.canonical.com/?
<pleia2> #action dholbach to coordinate getting Canonical Blog w/ Ubuntu Planet tag added to Ubuntu Planet
<meetingology> ACTION: dholbach to coordinate getting Canonical Blog w/ Ubuntu Planet tag added to Ubuntu Planet
<pleia2> beuno: yes
<Gwaihir> beuno, yep
<beuno> k, I think we just add in the right feed
<pleia2> https://code.launchpad.net/~nigelbabu/+junk/planet-filter
<AlanBell> there is an imperfect match between "nick = " lines and launchapd nicks
<AlanBell> jono and jonobacon for example
<AlanBell> and nick=daviey is ~dave.walker
<AlanBell> I might tidy that up to launchpad nicks and try to get an easier process
<beuno> every year
<pleia2> #topic General Community Comments?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: General Community Comments?
<beuno> +1
 * beuno stares at popey 
 * popey tickles beuno 
<pleia2> #action CC to develop basic question template for teams who come to CC meetings
<meetingology> ACTION: CC to develop basic question template for teams who come to CC meetings
<beuno> terms, multiple boards at the same time?
<dholbach> page 25 of the survey results
 * AlanBell wonders if sabdfl filled out the survey
<beuno> a simple(r) survey
<beuno> "General Quality", "Interface", "Hardware support", etc
<beuno> from personal experience, I see 1 or 2 emails a week in my LoCo list with people "leaving Ubuntu"
<beuno> which I haven't seen before the last year or so
<beuno> no, but why is it happening more frequently?   Existing members start to feel bad about the general direction fo the project
 * AlanBell has finished the first pass of planet feed/member list comparison
<czajkowski> AlanBell: thank you
<AlanBell> there are 95 blog feed nicks that I am unable to simply match off against launchpad nicks of members
 * dholbach hugs AlanBell
<beuno> I don't feel this is the case anymore
<beuno> it was when we switched to Unity
<AlanBell> some of whom I am sure can be matched as I recognise the nicks as active
<beuno> but I don't feel that's it anymore
<czajkowski> nods
<AlanBell> oops, make that 134
<czajkowski> 134 is a lot
<beuno> yes, we get those several times a week
<beuno> I think there's no good way to communicate with all _users_
<beuno> we could of had an intro on the actual install
<beuno> "Hi!  We changes the world. Here is how things are better."
<beuno> s/installer/first boot
 * beuno suspects the irc channel is not on the projector
<Gwaihir> beuno, no, it is
<dholbach> beuno, it is
<Gwaihir> we are reading
<beuno> I think the gnome shell thing is in the past now
<beuno> the problem will be on end users who don't know about these things
<beuno> for this LTS
<beuno> we should tell people, when they boot up, why we changed the world, and why it's better
<Gwaihir> that's a good point, telling people who switch from the previous LTS
<alourie> wouldn't it be too interruptive?
<beuno> on first boot?  once?
<alourie> well
<alourie> most users would just click "ok" without reading
<beuno> the ones who already know, yes
<beuno> the ones who are suddenly lost, maybe not
<alourie> hm
<alourie> "the world changed" announcement. I kinda like it
<alourie> it could be synced with u.com
<beuno> first boot?
<beuno> first time you hit the dash?
 * beuno hand-waves
<Gwaihir> during the upgrade also
<Gwaihir> if people upgrade directly from the LTS
<beuno> Gwaihir, the thing is, lucid is lucid, shipped
<beuno> so we can't change that code
<Gwaihir> true
<pleia2> #action CC to assemble and get published quick FAQ for "Why Unity?"
<meetingology> ACTION: CC to assemble and get published quick FAQ for "Why Unity?"
 * AlanBell has sent audit results spreadsheet to the CC
<dholbach> thanks AlanBell
<dholbach> any other business?
<beuno> so, we won a "battle" for being the most popular OSS OS, right?  maybe focus people on the next objective again?   Take over the world?
<ajmitch> still a battle to remain the most popular
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone
<beuno> o/
<AlanBell> o/
 * dholbach hugs you all
<Gwaihir> thanks everyone!
 * beuno listens to czajkowski curse
<dholbach> haha
<dholbach> see you tomorrow
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  2 22:53:17 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-02-22.01.moin.txt
<AlanBell> heard pleia2 go out the door :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-03
<pleia2> AlanBell: oops, thanks :)
<mdz> cjwatson, hi
<pitti> hello
<pitti> kees: howdy
<cjwatson> mdz: hiya
<cjwatson> for those at UDS, we're in Antigua 1
 * pitti waves from Antigua 4, trying to split himself
<cjwatson> soren and stgraber are here
<cjwatson> kees: are you around?  I think we have everyone else
<soren> o/
<cjwatson> well, let's get started
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  3 18:01:16 2011 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Action review
<mdz> o/
<pitti> hey mdz, how are you?
<mdz> pitti, doing well, how is UDS?
<cjwatson> can somebody remind me where the last minutes were?
<cjwatson> soren says he couldn't find them
<mdz> no idea
<pitti> who lead last time, stgraber?
<pitti> or was it cancelled?
<broder> the auto-generated minutes would be somewhere in http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/ i believe
<stgraber> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-20-18.00.moin.txt
<cjwatson> thanks
<soren> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-20-18.00.log.txt
<cjwatson> cjwatson to setup a survey for a new Technical Board meeting time
<cjwatson> done last night
<cjwatson> I've had five responses, will wait for the sixth
<soren> I'm not sure how to answer it.
<soren> It depends on whether it will be revisited once DST kicks in again.
<cjwatson> Let's agree now that it will, then
<soren> Cool.
<pitti> is it possible to update it somehow?
<pitti> (I don't see how)
<cjwatson> the existing poll?
<pitti> my response to it
<pitti> I filled it out with DST wiggling in mind, although it only affects two slots
<cjwatson> hover over your name, there's an edit link to the left
<mdz> this poll definitely stretched the limits of doodle
<soren> It affects at least 10 timeslots for me :-/
<cjwatson> yes, it perhaps wasn't ideal for the purpose; I was short on time last night when soren reminded me that I had this action, otherwise I might have looked into other tools
<pitti> cjwatson: thx
<cjwatson> anyway, let's move on
<kees> here now, sorry for the delay
<soren> I don't know of any better tools. It's a (surprisingly) difficult problem.
<cjwatson> stgraber to contact tumbleweed and if he agrees to be on the DMB, add him to the LP team and mailing list
<cjwatson> kees: hi
<mdz> what was the result of the poll?
<stgraber> cjwatson: done, he's now on the DMB
<mdz> oh, you're waiting for one more
<cjwatson> mdz: waiting for soren's input; I'll post to the list once I've collated that
<broder> i've found http://www.timetomeet.info/ to be quite good for this, fwiw
<cjwatson> or rather reviewed doodle's collation
<soren> cjwatson: Well, it also seems pitti wants to change his response.
 * pitti updated his slots for DST adaption then, currently set up for winter time
<cjwatson> broder: thanks, hopefully we'll remember to try that next time :)
<soren> Ah, ok, nm :)
<pitti> soren: done now
<cjwatson> stgraber to update the term of the DMB members to 2 years
<stgraber> done
<cjwatson> stgraber to add the new members to the ARB
<stgraber> done for the team, still waiting for jono to contact IS to make me the admin for the mailing-list
<stgraber> so we currently need to Cc all the members which is a bit annoying, I'll poke him in person :)
 * kees listens to the sounds of typing in antigua1
<stgraber> :)
<cjwatson> stgraber: OK, thanks
<cjwatson> I think broder agreed to us deferring "Opening backports pocket pre-release" to next meeting, as it's a recent submission and there's been no e-mail discussion yet - is that OK with everyone?
 * kees nods
<soren> yup
<stgraber> yep
<cjwatson> (although broder is in Antigua 1 here ...)
<broder> i'm fine with that. i was mostly hoping for an opportunity to resolve objections in person with the benefits of lower latency. but we've been kicking this around for a while now, so there's no sudden rush
<cjwatson> if we have time at the end we'll come back to it then
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] LTS cadence
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LTS cadence
<soren> That would be me.
<soren> The e-mail says it all, really.
<pitti> the stage there changed a bit with going from 3 to 5 years on non-server, but in practice it sounds fine to me
<pitti> everyone was pretty much operating on that assumption anyway
<cjwatson> I don't think there's much point in us revisiting the Debian angle that Mark mentioned by e-mail; we've already tried going down that road and frankly it did not go well
<pitti> including our own internal planning processes
<pitti> and there's still a way out with an one-time change confirmed by CC/TB
<soren> The motivation was a discussion in OpenStack where we talked about designating every 4th release an LTS one to follow Ubuntu, but someone pointed out that Ubuntu doesn't promise anything about this cadence.
<kees> since LTSness is really Canonical-backed, I'm not sure the TB has any control over the LTS cadence exactly.
<cjwatson> I do think we should leave ourselves a bit of flexibility, but promise to give plenty of notice if we exercise it, and have a damn good reason
<soren> cjwatson: When was this?
<pitti> cjwatson: yes, that option was explicitly in the mail
<cjwatson> soren: Debconf in Caceres
<soren> cjwatson: Er... Year?
<cjwatson> I can bring you up to speed out of band if you like; it's a fairly long story
<cjwatson> 2009 I think
<pitti> and we need that, there might always things coming up that make a plannet LTS impractical
<soren> cjwatson: Ok. Since then, Debian has switched to a time based release model, right? Not as strict as ours, but close, IIUIC.
<cjwatson> time-based freeze
<pitti> soren: well, s/has switched/wants to/
<soren> Ah, yes.
<pitti> and not time-based releases
<cjwatson> important distinction :)
 * skaet nods
<soren> Ok, sure, let's take this off-line.
<pitti> but Debian has different "ready for release" metrics and planning processes than we
<cjwatson> while it's true that Canonical offers the LTS commitment, if the Ubuntu project offered strong and reasoned advice on timing I think Canonical would accommodate it
<pitti> and with my Debian hat on, I don't see Debian do predictable time-based releases in the next two years or so
<soren> Good points.
<cjwatson> we have not had reason to do so up to now
<cjwatson> and setting expectations in advance does have its own value
<pitti> kees: OTOH, Mark explicitly asked the TB
<kees> pitti: I don't meant to see TB has no influence, but we don't strictly control it
<kees> s/see/say
<mdz> I think that, for users, the benefits of predictability outweigh the potential advantages of being able to tweak the timing to align with Debian et al
<soren> Well, if we all agree, whose decision it actually is is a bit of a moot point :)
<pitti> kees: right; but if we come up with a good reason why e. g. 14.04 would be bad, but 14.10 would be better, then I'm pretty sure that this will strongly be considered at least
<kees> I think overall, the current cadence should be maintained if for no other reason that it seems to work well and people have come to expect it.
<pitti> mdz +1
<kees> but yeah, if there's a compelling reason to change, sure.
<cjwatson> the example I've been using this week is a friend of mine who supports academics, and is keen on the new five-year desktop support combined with our LTS cycle because that means he can always support a desktop for the lifetime of a PhD without major version upgrades
<kees> it'll just need to be very loudly announced since many organizations now expect the current cadence.
<cjwatson> that's the kind of thing that a predictable cycle enables
<soren> kees: Right. And this is really about making sure that is the case.
<pitti> kees: frankly, I think we'd need to do this even without a formal commitment by now
<cjwatson> (well, with some optimism attached ...)
<soren> kees: ...because there hasn't so far been any promise that this is how it'll be.
 * kees nods
<stgraber> I think the proposal is reasonable as it's pretty much what our users expect and we have a way of changing it if really really needed
<cjwatson> pitti: right, we have an implied commitment
<cjwatson> I'm hearing consensus here; does anyone feel we need to vote?
<pitti> seems unanimous to me
<mdz> +1
<stgraber> yeah, sounds like we all agree there
<pitti> +1
<soren> +1
<soren> (obviously)
<pitti> but if we got asked to sign off this, we might just as well :)
<kees> (there's no bot listening, but...) +1
<cjwatson> [AGREED] ratify two-year LTS cadence as proposed by soren+mark
<cjwatson> #agreed ratify two-year LTS cadence as proposed by soren+mark
<mdz> #agree I think
<cjwatson> apparently it accepts both but gives no feedback
<mdz> ah
<cjwatson> anyway, bot-fettling aside, I'll follow up by mail as part of doing minutes
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Streamlining package set management
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Streamlining package set management
<cjwatson> (anyone know what this one is about?)
 * Laney comes over
<broder> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-October/001104.html
<soren> cjwatson: In case you want to go back to the meeting time discussion at some point, I've finished filling in my data.
<cjwatson> ah, right, added a link to the agenda
<cjwatson> so - my view (as the person who's done a lot of packageset manipulation) is that formal DMB votes approve developers for categories of permission, but it's fine for DMB members to use common sense in tweaking permissions for trivial package name changes and the like
<cjwatson> (or whoever owns the team)
<cjwatson> from my perspective it's a change to require having this be discussed and aged on devel-permissions, but personally I think that's a good change, as it provides an audit trail
<mdz> yes, that seemed like the de facto status quo
<mdz> Q.E.D.
<cjwatson> (I've often done things like adding linux-backports-modules-$VERSION to the kernel set based on IRC requests)
<stgraber> This proposal is basically about making official things that we've been doing, at least for the 3 first points, the last one is a very good idea though
<Laney> IMHO an important change is that we start requiring people to provide criteria
<Laney> something that we can assess change requests against
<cjwatson> I think three days of aging would be unnecessary for things like that
<cjwatson> not sure how to codify that
<Laney> currently the definitions of the sets are rather loose
<mdz> asking for criteria sounds reasonable
<Laney> which makes acting on changes ad-hoc
<mdz> though there will certainly continue to be lots of wiggle room and judgement calls for what's appropriate to add
<stgraber> cjwatson: we could add some exception for cases where we have a versioned source package?
<cjwatson> another example is things like Till having approved upload access to things that are obviously part of the printing subsystem
<stgraber> as in, version in the source package name
<cjwatson> although in that case perhaps some more aging is appropriate since there is often more overlap between what people maintain
<soren> Is there any way to see when a package gets added (and possibly by whom)?
 * kees wonders about revocation a bit
<Laney> stgraber: that is the kind of thing that can go in a description
<Laney> soren: not afaik
<soren> If changes to package sets were announced somewhere, I wouldn't mind if there were no aging period.
<pitti> devel-permissions@ is meant to be exactly that
<Laney> it is just as easy to remove a package, so I guess that will be enough in case of objections
<stgraber> Laney: "I think three days of aging would be unnecessary for things like that" so that's for an exception to the 3 days rule when it's just a change to the source package name (when containing the version)
<soren> pitti: I meant automatic announcement when the deed is actually done.
<pitti> and if something really gets objections, we can always revert
<soren> pitti: Does that land on devel-permissions?
<pitti> soren: no, that's quiet
<Laney> ok, no need for aging then
<Laney> DMB member responds on -permissions to confirm that they did it
<cjwatson> I'm not sure what audit trail Launchpad keeps
<Laney> (or whoever)
<soren> It's just easier to revert something if you know there's something to revert.
<pitti> yeah, I think foo-1.0 -> foo-2.0 is really just a technical change, not a social/policy change at all
<cjwatson> I would be happy to take an action to chase that down if people think it's important to have
<kees> yeah, unless it gets abused or there a lots of reverts, I don't see a reason for the waiting period.
<cjwatson> (though not to fix it ...)
<pitti> soren: yes, that's why I meant it should be on d-p@
<soren> pitti: Gotcha.
<cjwatson> is the DMB now able to take action on all package set manipulation requests that they care about?
<pitti> in general it's a lot smoother to add new packages right away, as it unblocks devs
<cjwatson> or is there still a requirement for somebody with some other demigod bit to do it?
<Laney> TB still owns cli-mono for some reason
<Laney> actually it still owns a few: http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/precise/
<cjwatson> damnit.  changing owners is a pain, it requires a LOSA
<Laney> but for ones we own, sure
<stgraber> I can do the other ones for now
<stgraber> being on both TB and DMB
<cjwatson> yep, if you need TB action as a workaround, feel free to mail technical-board@ too
<stgraber> though this really should be fixed on LP's side
<cjwatson> yes
<cjwatson> anyway
<cjwatson> do we have something to vote on here?  agree Laney's proposal minus the aging period?
<soren> Sounds good to me.
<kees> +1
<stgraber> +1
<pitti> something like "changing package sets is under the DMB's discretion as long as changes get announced to d-p@"?
<pitti> +1
<cjwatson> +1
<Laney> ta
<cjwatson> #agreed DMB discretion for changing package sets by common sense as long as they announce it
<cjwatson> (sorry, I want to keep moving here as we have a couple more things)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Proposal for criteria to become and remain a recognized derivative flavor, and proposal for criteria to designate flavor release as LTS
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Proposal for criteria to become and remain a recognized derivative flavor, and proposal for criteria to designate flavor release as LTS
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecognizedDerivatives
<cjwatson> this is something skaet has been working on, and perhaps she can present it briefly
<skaet> We need to clarify some processes on the criteria for a set of images to be considered a recognized derivative and what is necessary for a derivative to be designated LTS.
<skaet> Have worked up some proposals for criteria and would like to get them reviewed by TB and any necessary updates made; so we have a place to point folk when the questions come up.
<pitti> we already discussed it yesterday briefly, and via mail before, and this looks very thorough and clear to me
<mdz> skaet, this looks very good, we were overdue for a document like this
<cjwatson> my main comment (which I've made in person etc.) is that I think this is often based on a general soft sense of how a flavour is interacting with us etc.; I think we normally tend to be fairly well aligned on that, from what I can tell
<cjwatson> the main change is having some formal way that a very well-organised flavour can access the LTS processes
<mdz> is there anything in here which is new, as opposed to codifying existing common practice?
<kees> "Minimum 1 person sponsored at UDS" ? does that mean they must always be at UDS?
<pitti> one thing I'd like to add is that a derivative must have at least N non-LTS releases before
<pitti> skaet: ^
<cjwatson> mdz: the LTS bit is new
<pitti> to get some proven track record
<mdz> still reading
<skaet> recognized flavor part was codifying, what I observed through lubuntu
<skaet> LTS is new
<cjwatson> kees: I talked with skaet about that - I think that meant that Canonical will always be prepared to offer such sponsorship
<pitti> which is needed to get some acquaintance with their developers, etc.
<mdz> cjwatson, I agree with your comment, and would support swapping  "criteria" for "guidelines" to reflect that
<cjwatson> maybe we should be a bit clearer there
<kees> ah-ha
 * skaet nods
<cjwatson> mdz: yes, that would be good
<cjwatson> some of the wording on image testing is somewhat new as well
<cjwatson> ("flavour QA lead")
<skaet> we had that in the last release
<cjwatson> indeed, sorry, that's what I meant by "somewhat"
<skaet> :)
<skaet> There is sometimes a separation in responsibility.
<cjwatson> did you get any substantive comments from folk maintaining existing flavours?
<skaet> In some cases the contact also serves as the lead, but this may not always be the case.
<soren> Then we should clarify that they can be the same person, but that's a minor detail.
<skaet> no issues raised from stgraber and riddell when I reviewed it with them.
<skaet> Have talked about it with some others, but haven't done the 1:1 with all.
<skaet> soren,  ok.
<cjwatson> OK, I'd like to hear feedback from at least one non-Canonical person since sometimes they have different perspectives ;)
<cjwatson> but that sounds plausible so far
<mdz> cjwatson, representing derivatives, you mean?
<cjwatson> yes
<skaet> Have talked to charlie-tca as well, and he was positive.
<skaet> It happened in the UDS session earlier this week.
<broder> i believe highvoltage was in the room as well
<mdz> having something codified seems like a good step forward, and this is close enough to existing practice that I'm not too fussed
<mdz> anything which turns out to be problematic we can change
<skaet> broder, yup he was.  Thanks for the reminder.
<cjwatson> I agree with pitti's comments about N non-LTS releases; I expect the TB wouldn't approve something that was too new and untried, but it's good to set expectations
<pitti> the main thing I'd like to avoid is to bless a brand new derivative as LTS right away
<cjwatson> right
<pitti> just because it happened to pop up at that time
 * skaet nods
 * highvoltage catches up with conversation
<pitti> and if we have a document which codifies that, I think that should be in
<pitti> skaet: the document doesn't actually seem to mention that LTSness requires TB signoff; does it?
<pitti> I mean, does it intend to?
<skaet> pitti,  use of word criteria implies it.
<broder> second bullet point says TB approval
<pitti> oh, ignore me
<pitti> grep fail, sorr
<pitti> y
<cjwatson> I think it's implicit in "recommendations for Tech Board consideration" anyway, but sure
<cjwatson> skaet: s/criteria/guidelines/ as suggested earlier?
<pitti> cjwatson: I thought the bold text would go away once that document gets approved
<skaet> cjwatson, yes.
<pitti> so, with TB approval the "have N previous releases" is kind of implied, but might still be good to set an expecation
<cjwatson> pitti: fair
<highvoltage> For Edubuntu, we're going to apply for LTS status with some notes on how we plan to support it for 5 years. It's probably a good excercise even if it's not strictly required.
<pitti> with N=2 or so?
<mdz> time check: we have 12 minutes and I have a hard stop (another meeting after this). is there anything further after this topic?
<cjwatson> five years, really?  gosh.  I wasn't expecting non-Canonical flavours to manage that.  (not that I inherently object, it just seemed like a big ask)
<skaet> There's a choice of saying 3 or 5 years
<pitti> mdz: same here
<soren> Possibly talking about the meeting time.
<cjwatson> I wouldn't mind getting back to broder's proposal if we have time
<mdz> pitti, ouch, another meeting?
<pitti> mdz: UDS
<cjwatson> soren: I'm not going to have time to look at the doodle output before the end of this meeting
<soren> No worries.
<mdz> oh, right, you're in a nearby TZ now :-)
<cjwatson> not and pay attention
<highvoltage> cjwatson: that's what LTS means now, isn't it?
<cjwatson> highvoltage: you have the option of either three or five years
<cjwatson> if that's not clear, we should clarify this document
<highvoltage> hmm, imho 3 years would actually be more appropriate for Edubuntu. <- stgraber?
<cjwatson> (or 18 months, non-LTS)
<cjwatson> let's take the edubuntu LTS length discussion separately
<cjwatson> we don't have to do that now :)
<pitti> shall we vote on the document then?
<highvoltage> yes, sorry for noise :)
<cjwatson> [VOTE] approve flavour support guidelines as adjusted by comments in this meeting
<meetingology> Please vote on: approve flavour support guidelines as adjusted by comments in this meeting
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> highvoltage: I'll discuss that with you and alkis and we'll propose something for the next TB meeting
<pitti> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pitti
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cjwatson> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjwatson
<mdz> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from mdz
<soren> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from soren
<kees> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kees
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: approve flavour support guidelines as adjusted by comments in this meeting
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<skaet> Thanks!
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Opening backports pre-release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Opening backports pre-release
<skaet> I'll make the changes and remove draft.
<pitti> skaet: thanks to you, nice writeup!
<cjwatson> I don't know if we'll have time to finish this, but perhaps we can start
<broder> i realize this has potential to be a complicated topic; i wasn't expecting decisions today
<cjwatson> I'm somewhat concerned about skew in developer attention
<cjwatson> and possibly what users are in practice testing
<broder> with NotAutomatic: yes set on backports, users would have to work to be testing everything in backports
<cjwatson> regarding skew in general, I think we could really use some tools to report on this kind of thing; to some extent we already have this problem with (e.g.) oneiric-proposed vs. precise
<broder> right. Laney and i discussed something vaguely similar to a MoM configuration between release and backport pockets
<broder> so we could watch for that skew
<cjwatson> upload privileges: the original TB approval of direct uploads to -backports explicitly applied only to -core-dev
<cjwatson> I don't remember that being changed
<Laney> I can definitely uploadâ¦
<cjwatson> right, technically ...
<broder> i may have confused requirements to be on ~ubuntu-backporters and the requirements for direct uploads
<broder> i've never tried a direct upload myself...
<cjwatson> we probably ought to revise that anyway, that was in like 2005 or something
<cjwatson> or at least review
<broder> i certainly have a fair amount of uncertainty about what the technical enforcements are on backports; i'd prefer to discuss what we'd like to see implemented and we can be responsible for aligning our implementation with that
<broder> ...assuming that i can sell the board on the idea in the first place, of course
<cjwatson> archive admin workload: TBH I'm not worried about that, our job is to provide that service (among others) and we should ensure that we have enough people to do so
<cjwatson> I think the technical enforcements on backports are by this point incoherent
<cjwatson> perhaps it would be worth starting from scratch and saying how we'd like it all to work
<cjwatson> er, that's what you said
<cjwatson> vociferous agreement then
<cjwatson> I'm pretty sure they aren't coherently written down in one place, at any rate
<pitti> sorry, can we continue this next time? really need to leave
<cjwatson> OK, and we can follow up by mail too; I have to move on too, per UDS clockwork
<broder> same here
<cjwatson> thanks a lot to everyone for attending, and to UDS folk for skipping the plenaries to do so
<pitti> thanks, good meeting!
<stgraber> thanks
<cjwatson> mdz, kees: we're missing you here ;-)
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  3 18:59:17 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-03-18.01.moin.txt
<mdz> cjwatson, likewise!
<mdz> SFO next time? :-)
<cjwatson> I wouldn't say no :)
<kees> hehe, SFO would be cool. 1.5 hr flight :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-06
<scott-upstairs> the ubuntu studio team should be starting their meeting in two minutes
<scott-upstairs> the meeting agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011September4
<astraljava> #startmeeting Ubuntu Studio collaborator meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov  6 17:00:48 2011 UTC.  The chair is astraljava. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio collaborator meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<astraljava> Hello everybody.
<astraljava> Who's with us today?
<scott-upstairs> hello astraljava
<scott-upstairs> i am here
<stochastic> Hi
<stochastic> can't stay too long
<scott-upstairs> holstein and falktx said they would not be present today
<astraljava> Right, okay. Do we have an agenda?
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, how much time, do you have preferred topics to discuss now
<scott-upstairs> agend:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011September4
<scott-upstairs> agenda
<stochastic> just the sooner I get on the road today the happier I will be, preferably no more than 30min
<astraljava> Same as from the last one?
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, ack
<astraljava> Ok. What are the most important topics, Scott?
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, no, i unfortunately updated the wrong one (i.e. sept)
<astraljava> Ahh... okay, that's fine.
<scott-upstairs> so the agenda in the link is correct in scope, just not on the right wiki, i will resolve that after the meeting
<scott-upstairs> okay, i won't bother reading the old business in the meeting
<scott-upstairs> i will quickly explain the new development process for the ubuntu studio team
<scott-upstairs> we will be actively involved with the release planning team this cycle
<astraljava> #topic New development process
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio collaborator meeting Meeting | Current topic:  New development process
<scott-upstairs> we will collate a group of tasks we want into blueprints within launchpad
<scott-upstairs> kate stewart, the release manager, will approve them as she sees fit
<scott-upstairs> our progress will then be tracked on the status.ubuntu.com site
<scott-upstairs> if anyone has questions how this works, please let me know outside the meeting
<scott-upstairs>  
<astraljava> Sounds good, thanks.
<scott-upstairs> this is good because it forces us to be organized
<scott-upstairs> but it also holds us accountable as our progress (or lack of) will be extremely public
<scott-upstairs> but this also gives us a forum for resolution if someone is blocking us this cycle
<astraljava> That is true.
<scott-upstairs> done
<astraljava> Ok, any comments/questions regarding this topic?
<stochastic> just want to say that I'd love a step-by-step e-mail to be sent to the dev list regarding the process if that's possible
<stochastic> i.e. how do I get task x approved etc..
<stochastic> keep everyone in the loop
<astraljava> Sure, we can work something out, right Scott?
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, i can do that, but i should point out that this is something done only at the beginning of the cycle (i.e. getting blueprints approved)
<stochastic> okay
<scott-upstairs> i should probably also note this in a wiki somewhere, i'll work on that too
<scott-upstairs> i'm good
<astraljava> #action Scott document devel process in the wiki
<meetingology> ACTION: Scott document devel process in the wiki
<astraljava> #topic Release planning for Precise
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio collaborator meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Release planning for Precise
<scott-upstairs> has anyone NOT looked at the release planning wiki?
<scott-upstairs> i don't want to over commit the team
<scott-upstairs> hi shnatsel
<shnatsel> hi scott-upstairs
<scott-upstairs> so i wanted to make sure that people agree with what is preliminarily planned
<stochastic> I like the scope of the release plan
<scott-upstairs> thank you starcraftman
<scott-upstairs> stochastic,
<astraljava> Yeah it shouldn't be impossible.
<scott-upstairs> sorry, starcraftman
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, any opinion on the scope of precise release planning https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning
<scott-upstairs> i think most of the tasks already have people (mainly me) associated with them, so we will be asking people to commit as well
<astraljava> We can't just do it now, as there's not many in here.
<stochastic> I just wanted to briefly mention that I'd like to revisit the concept of putting a 'documentation' link on the desktop.
<astraljava> So I suppose we will ask people to assign themselves due some time?
<stochastic> This can fit under UI redesign and I'd be happy to help with that task in general
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, i agree, we don't need to assign everything today, just getting the agreement on the scope was enough to move forward with the release team
<astraljava> Ok.
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, there are several items for "new users" i would like to address as well, but unless they are liminted in scope or studid-simple i was planning on deferring them to later
<scott-upstairs> you can see them in the release planning page as well
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: I want more graphics apps. The doc is large, needs thinking.
<scott-upstairs> starcraftman, look under precise+1 -> new user support
<stochastic> quit it with the starcraftman
<stochastic> I see thanks
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: popups tend to not work usually
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, sorry again
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: they're too intrusive
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, that is just brainstorming, i expect others have better methods to accomplish the goals ;)
<astraljava> Yes, agreed.
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: also, you'll need the support to be somewhat localized... and adding bookmarks to firefox doesn't work, I've tried that.
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, also, we can certainly explore more graphic applications
<scott-upstairs> hi JonReagan
<scott-upstairs> as long as everyone is okay with the scope of precise development then we can discuss the particulars later
<stochastic> yup
<JonReagan> hello Scott  :)  Sorry I'm a bit late
<astraljava> Ok, anything else regarding this topic?
<shnatsel> astraljava: yes
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: when are you going to introduce workflows in the installer instead of broad categories? 12.10?
<astraljava> Go ahead.
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, that is the next topic actually ;)
<scott-upstairs> but it will be this cycle
<astraljava> Yes, thank you. :)
<shnatsel> ah :D
<shnatsel> great!
<astraljava> #topic Updating seeds based on workflows
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio collaborator meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Updating seeds based on workflows
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: why it's not in the planning doc then?
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, part of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#live_dvd
<scott-upstairs> i'll explain a bit for those not familiar
<scott-upstairs> our goals is to do something similar to what tasksel did during the alternate installation where users could pick certain package sets to install or not install
<scott-upstairs> however, going to the live dvd will will use a GUI method that edubuntu is currently using
<scott-upstairs> and we will base this on work flows, instead of just broad categories
<scott-upstairs> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/livedvd has more resources
<scott-upstairs>  
<astraljava> Thanks. Comments/questions?
<shnatsel> do we need the alternate image at all?
<scott-upstairs> the exact work flows do not have to be decided this meeting but hopefully we can decide _which_ work flows we will support
<JonReagan> Ah, workflows meaning packages that would pertain to what people want to do with their system?
<scott-upstairs> if not the exact contents of each work flow
<shnatsel> JonReagan: yes, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, i believe we should not make an alternate dvd
<scott-upstairs> err, alternate image
<shnatsel> I think so too
<scott-upstairs> JonReagan, rather than make a large cache of audio applications we want to support a smaller, less intrusive package set based on a smaller granularity
<scott-upstairs> we will targe what people actually want to accomplish
<scott-upstairs> rather than a broad generalized term
<JonReagan> gotcha, that makes a lot of sense
<scott-upstairs> everyone can see what is listed for the work flows at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#live_dvd
<scott-upstairs> i'll send out an email to the list to solicit peoples opinions so we can make a decision next week
<astraljava> I'll just have a comment on this; let's not get carried away and add too many of those. This is going to be supported for 3 years.
<scott-upstairs> aye!  very, very good point
<shnatsel> astraljava: 5 years?
<scott-upstairs> this LTS is supported for 5 years
<astraljava> shnatsel: No, that's just server edition.
<astraljava> Really?
<astraljava> All of it?
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, they have changed policy during uds
<astraljava> Holy c**p.
<scott-upstairs> they are trying to embrace corporations more
<astraljava> I stand corrected.
<scott-upstairs> we'll see where it goes and adjust later
<astraljava> Even more so.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava's point still remains, we should ease into this (even if it wasn't an LTS)
<scott-upstairs> and we still have the opportunity to adjust next cycle if we want to add something
<scott-upstairs> and backport back to precise if we feel something is worth it
<astraljava> Yep, thanks.
<scott-upstairs> so i am strongly suggesting we are cautious and prudent
<scott-upstairs> any further comments or questions at this time?
<shnatsel> now postponing workflows to 12.10 sounds like a good idea
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, can you make the bot recognize i should email the list about work flows?
<shnatsel> can we really develop and polish them in a cycle?
<astraljava> #action Scott to email lists regarding work flows
<meetingology> ACTION: Scott to email lists regarding work flows
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, do you really want to?  i would think getting the process established now would be good
<scott-upstairs> we can continue refining the work flows each cycle as needed then
<astraljava> I agree, this one is going to be present for a long time. Better include it now.
<shnatsel> I'm neutral on this.
<scott-upstairs> as long as we can give at least the same functionality as we did with the alternate cd i don't see a downside at this point
<stochastic> essentially the concept between selecting workflows and selecting a bunch of software bundles is the same, we just label and organize them slightly differently?
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, from the user perspective, i would say yes
<stochastic> okay, but we'd be re-arranging packaging from the dev perspective?
<shnatsel> stochastic: from dev perspective also
<shnatsel> stochastic: just requires much more fine-grained selection
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, i would say yes again
<astraljava> What does that mean exactly?
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, but i would describe it more as we are re-arranging the package sets but not really the packaging
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, which part are you asking about?
<stochastic> well I think it is a do-able concept with very few modifications required.  The largest problem will be selecting the ideal workflows to include - that's a big list.
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, agreed!  this is one reason to focus small on this set
<astraljava> Re-arranging packaging from dev perspective?
<scott-upstairs> also, not all work flows are a) complete or b) desired
<scott-upstairs> we should consider if we feel a large group of users actually desire a work flow
<stochastic> astraljava, we'd be heavily adjusting the content/labelling of the meta packages
<astraljava> Ok.
<scott-upstairs> any further comments or questions?
<stochastic> yes, this is a task best handled by a committee I think
<scott-upstairs> agreed!  oh, i defintely agree!
<stochastic> but done for 12.04
<JonReagan> +1 on that
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, please keep in mind we only need to decide _which_ work flows soon, not just _what_ exactly is in each one
<scott-upstairs> this may seem strange, but hear me out
<scott-upstairs> i think we should look at what the users want to do
<stochastic> yes, true
<JonReagan> would this mean some sort of survey?
<scott-upstairs> if we think we can support it, then we can consider it for inclusion
<scott-upstairs> then later we can fine tune the contents of the ones we will support
<scott-upstairs> obvsiously we WILL need to examine the contents first if we are not sure we can support it properly before deciding about inclusion
<scott-upstairs> JonReagan, it could, but perhaps we should discuss that in the next meeting
<scott-upstairs> i would be completely open to a meeting of anyone interested to discuss these things outside of this meeting
<astraljava> #action Have a separate meeting for work flows discussion
<meetingology> ACTION: Have a separate meeting for work flows discussion
<scott-upstairs> who would be interested in such a meeting?
<scott-upstairs> i would
<astraljava> o/
<stochastic> aie
<scott-upstairs> i'm sure holstein would be as well
<JonReagan> I'd be interested for sure
<scott-upstairs> good :)  basically everyone
<shnatsel> probably me too
<scott-upstairs> i can send out an email to coordinate times then
<scott-upstairs> is this a good time for almost everyone?  earlier?  later?
<astraljava> We just don't have everyone here, so we'll throw some suggestions for times on the -devel channel and mailing list later?
<astraljava> Ahh, one step ahead of me, sorry.
<stochastic> good time, but depends on the week as to if this day is free for me
<scott-upstairs> would someone else but me email the list for this purpose, i have enough tasks already
<astraljava> Good time for me.
<astraljava> I can do that.
<JonReagan> sure, I could send out an email
<astraljava> Oh okay, Jon, go ahead.
<astraljava> Moving on?
<scott-upstairs> is it okay if we move on?
<scott-upstairs> hehe
 * stochastic needs to be leaving soon
<astraljava> #topic Meeting schedule
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio collaborator meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Meeting schedule
<JonReagan> Alrighty then.  What should be said?  Need a meeting to discuss workflows, ask for which time works best on Sunday?
<scott-upstairs> i have a few questions about making our meetings more effective
<scott-upstairs> JonReagan, stochastic needs to leave, can you and i coordinate after this meeting?
<JonReagan> absolutely
<scott-upstairs> how often should we have meetings?
<scott-upstairs> should we alternate times between meetings for our european friends?
<stochastic> bi-weekly or weekly would be good for informal, monthly for formal team meeting?
<scott-upstairs> should have stagger meetings with "informal" meetings in between?
<astraljava> I'm good for weekly.
<astraljava> Whatever the formality.
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, would you suggest using a regular time for the "informal" meetings?
<scott-upstairs> not asking you to actually suggest a time right now, just qualify if you think we _should_ use a regular time
<stochastic> yes, a set hour where it's generally anticipated that people would be around
<scott-upstairs> i have opinions but don't want to bias the group
<shnatsel> bi-weekly preferred here (I'm ok with not attending half of meetings, though, and you're probably OK with me missing too)
<scott-upstairs> lol shnatsel , you are important man!
<scott-upstairs> but i understand as well
<JonReagan> I'd be up for weekly meetings, we have an awful lot to do before the next release
<astraljava> Agreed.
<scott-upstairs> the general consensus i'm seeing is weekly meetings, but perhaps alternating "formal" and "informal"?
<shnatsel> weekly will definitely make the dev process more lively.
<scott-upstairs> both using an agreed time?
<JonReagan> for predictability, I'd say yes
<astraljava> Preferably, but subject to change if necessary.
<JonReagan> agreed
<stochastic> to explain 'formal' and 'informal' I think one would be in here, logged, with an agenda, the other, in -dev with minimal agenda
<scott-upstairs> perhaps we alternate times between week#1 and week#3 for the "formal meeting" and the same for #2 and #4 for "informal"?
<astraljava> Sounds good to me.
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, +1
<scott-upstairs> okay, let's go with that and we can make changes as necessary as astraljava and stochastic are saying
<scott-upstairs> any other comments or questions?
<stochastic> I really feel formal will only be needed monthly, but that's just a minor technicality that can be adjusted later
<astraljava> #action Move to bi-weekly formal and informal meetings alternating
<meetingology> ACTION: Move to bi-weekly formal and informal meetings alternating
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, what was that sign you suggested to let the chair know we are done with a topic?
<scott-upstairs> was it '..'
<scott-upstairs> i.e.
<scott-upstairs> ..
<astraljava> Yes, that would be good.
<astraljava> And asking for voices with o/ while someone is talking?
<astraljava> As in not interrupting the talk.
<scott-upstairs> if we can use .. to help the chair know when to move to the next topic, that would help the meeting progress
<scott-upstairs> okay, i didn't know that one :)
<scott-upstairs> everyone okay moving to next topic?
<astraljava> It helps to keep the talk coherent.
<stochastic> yup
<astraljava> #topic Other business
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<scott-upstairs> i have no other business
<astraljava> Me neither.
<stochastic> I'd just like to say one brief thing
<stochastic> In the coming days it'd be nice if the devs could ponder how much social interaction they'd feel comfortable with on the new website.
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, would you be up to emailing the -dev list about this?
<stochastic> yes
<stochastic> will do
<scott-upstairs> this would be a good forum to aggregate opinions i think
<scott-upstairs> err, that would be
<scott-upstairs> ..
<stochastic> for now, ponder away, I'm on vacation for a couple days
<scott-upstairs> enjoy your vacation :)
<scott-upstairs> next topic?
<astraljava> #topic Next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio collaborator meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Next meeting
<scott-upstairs> oi :)
<scott-upstairs> okay, sounds like we will meet "formally" in two weeks
<scott-upstairs> same bat channel, same bat time?  (american joke)
<stochastic> sure
<astraljava> So according to the decision today, we shall meet formally here on 2011.11.20 1700 UTC
<stochastic> I might not make that meeting
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, should we reschedule the time?
<scott-upstairs> move it ahead a day?
<JonReagan> haha, that would work for me.  you mentioned earlier perhaps finding a time that would work for both europe and in the US?
<astraljava> And informally on #ubuntustudio-devel on 2011.11.13 1700 UTC, unless otherwise signalled.
<scott-upstairs> JonReagan, yes!  good point
<scott-upstairs> should the next "formal" meeting be euro friendly?
<stochastic> scott-upstairs, no need to move it, just uncertain schedule at this point
<scott-upstairs> perhaps move ahead 12 hours?
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, JonReagan, any suggestions?
 * scott-upstairs is presuming that JonReagan is in a european time zone
<astraljava> That's gonna be 5 am. for me. Well, I can work it out.
<JonReagan> lol nope, I'm EST
<shnatsel> I'm GMT+4
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, do you have a preference what we should do for the next meeting in two weeks?
<stochastic> either case would be fine for me 9am or 9pm
<stochastic> I like the idea of alternating, but I'm not sure how successful it will be :)
<astraljava> Let's have a voting on this later.
<astraljava> So we can wrap up here.
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: last time I checked there was only one time that fits both european and american useras
<shnatsel> users
<shnatsel> I've found one, let me look it up...
<shnatsel> Asia is out ofc
 * stochastic is out for now.  Will read the rest in meeting minutes
<stochastic> goodbye
<astraljava> Bye.
<scott-upstairs> bye stochastic ,enjoy the vacation :)
<scott-upstairs> i actually need to go as well, JonReagan can you email me about what we were going to work on together or catch me later this afternoon in IRC?
<scott-upstairs> poof
<astraljava> #action Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later
<meetingology> ACTION: Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later
<astraljava> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Nov  6 17:56:27 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-06-17.00.moin.txt
<astraljava> Thanks everybody!
<JonReagan> Great meeting, talk to you all later!
<starcraftman> Too many S names in this channel! hehe :)
<texaswriter> more a names
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-10-29
<kees> \p
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-01
<abdelrahmanbonna> hi
<abdelrahmanbonna>                                                         
<abdelrahmanbonna>               n
<kendosan> hello ubuntu, when are you returning to being a great desktop ?
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-02
<abdobonna> hi
<abdobonna> no any meetings in here
<abdobonna> ØØ
<abdobonna> ØØ
<abdobonna> no any meetings ??
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-03
<bootlkjgf> http://goo.gl/yFOzQ
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-28
 * pitti waves
<stgraber> hello
<pitti> sorry for being late
<stgraber> well, we're still not on the TB, so nobody's late ;)
<mdz> hi
<stgraber> I think the meeting time is tied to the London time
<stgraber> let me check
<stgraber> right, meeting time is 21:00 London time which is indeed now
<ScottK> Right now there's only one TB member anyway.
<pitti> so it seems we just have some MRE requests
<mdz> there's no agenda, no chair and no members?
<pitti> which we can handle by mail (we just need to actually do it)
<stgraber> well, existing MRE requests will have to wait for either Mark to process them or for a TB to be elected
 * pitti waves good night then
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-29
<smoser> o/
<jamespage> o/
<zul> i still got 30 seconds
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 29 16:00:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<zul> hi
<adam_g> o/
<zul> so welcome lets get this thing started
<zul> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> is there anything from the last meeting
<zul> i think we might be missing some but...
<zul> #topic T Development Opening
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: T Development Opening
<zul> jamespage/smoser: do you want to take this one?
<smoser> sure.
<jamespage> zul, ok
<smoser> trusty just opened.
<smoser> all good ubuntu developers have already sed -i 's,saucy,trusty,g' /etc/apt/sources.list
<zul> like me
<smoser> the biggest thing for developmeent of trusty right now is to think about vUDS sessions
<smoser> and content for 14.04
<smoser> the deadline for sessions is (i think) this friday (link?)
<jamespage> yes it is
<smoser> the other thing to be thinking about is package merges and syncs.
<zul> anything else?
<smoser> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-October/037700.html
<smoser> so please take a gander, think of great things to do to make 14.04 LTS outstanding for 5 years to come
<smoser> and if you have questions please feel free to ping myself or jamespage or any of the ubuntu server team.
<smoser> EOM
<zul> cool!
<zul> #topic Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<zul> hi caribou are you around?
<zul> we can come back to him later
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<zul> hi psivaa
<zul> are you around?
<psivaa> hello, nothing much from us apart from the fact we have one trusty image yet
<psivaa> s /one/only one/
<zul> cool any questions for psivaa
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Erm, hi. Nothing to see, we can move on. :)
<zul> hi smb i know you are around
<zul> *sigh*
<zul> any questions for smb
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<smoser> random bit of information: kernel for 14.04 will be 3.13.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<zul> i think rbasak is at lianro so we can skip that part as well
<zul> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> lets see whats next week oh yes ODS in hong kong...who is going?
<zul> besides myself
<smb> Sound of silence
<hallyn> think adam_g was going
<yolanda> i'm ready for HK!
<Daviey> o/
<jamespage> o/
<smoser> o/
<zul> coolio
<zul> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> anything to bring up?
<zul> if not can I make a suggestion that next week we skip the server team meeting since alot of people are going to be in hong kong next week?
<hallyn> +1
<smoser> +1
<jamespage> +1
<jamespage> I would not even know what time to turn up
<zul> ok then ill update the schedule
<zul> thanks for comming
<jamespage> ta
<zul> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 29 16:15:47 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-29-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-29-16.00.html
<cking> wot no meetin'?
<kamal> cking, cancelled today, it appears
<cking> sad trombone
<psusi> doh
<psusi> I finally remember to show up and it gets canceled
 * psusi wanted to float the idea of CONFIG_EXT[23]=n
<psusi> also the meeting agenda wiki shows the wrong date... 26th but today is the 29th
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-31
<stokachu> slangasek: ive been assigned a long project so I wont have anything for you guys this week or next
<stokachu> slangasek: i should be back to normal after that
 * barry waves
<cjwatson> hi folks
<cjwatson> Steve and I are at the client sprint in Oakland; haven't seen Steve around yet this morning
<cjwatson> stokachu: thanks
<cjwatson> also at least doko is at Linaro Connect, and I may be missing another conference ...
<barry> just bdmurray and me on mumble this morning
<cjwatson> no jodh here.  stgraber, xnox?
<cjwatson> maybe it's not worth meeting this week :)
 * barry would rather go back to trying to unbrick his n10
<bdmurray> I thought stgraber sent an email saying he'd be in Maine or travelling
<ogra_> stgraber is in maine at the LTSP BTS
<cjwatson> oh of course
<cjwatson> ok, sure, let's cancel then.  one reminder: blueprints for vUDS are due TODAY
<cjwatson> so if you have anything you want to discuss there, get it in asap :)
<barry> thanks for the reminder
<cjwatson> barry: yeah, I'm trying to unbreak coreutils here ...
<cjwatson> (nothing important or anything)
<barry> icu-devtools and liblttng-ust2 seem hosed too
<barry> but those are too far down on my "sh*t that's broken" list to worry about right now ;)
<cjwatson> liblttng-ust2 needed --force-overwrite to upgrade this morning; dunno about icu-devtools ...
<cjwatson> bug 1246620
<ubottu> bug 1246620 in ust (Ubuntu) "upgrade failed: trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblttng-ust-tracepoint.so.0.0.0', which is also in package liblttng-ust0:amd64 2.1.1-6" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1246620
<barry> ah, thanks
 * cjwatson attaches the close-enough Debian bug
<cjwatson> and I guess icu-devtools is bug 1246566
<ubottu> bug 1246566 in icu (Ubuntu) "package icu-devtools (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/sbin/gensprep', which is also in package icu-tools 4.8.1.1-12ubuntu2" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1246566
<barry> cjwatson: thanks
<xnox> cjwatson: sorry got caught up in compiling android =)
<xnox> blueprints, ack.
<cjwatson> xnox: do you think you could sort icu?  Debian did the multiarching with a slightly different package name to your multiarch patch last cycle, so I think we need an Ubuntu-specific patch to add breaks/replaces
<cjwatson> and carry that until after trusty
<xnox> cjwatson: right, ok. let me get that sorted out.
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> all right, back to work :-)
<cjwatson> happy hallowe'en
<ogra_> ++
<xnox> ARGH! ^_^
<barry> okay, see ya
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-01
<jose> jono: ping
<jose> oops, wrong channel
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-10-28
<fghgf> hm..
<dholbach> good morning
<beisner> o/
<hallyn> \o
<rbasak> o/
<caribou> o/
<hallyn> morning everyone
<smb> o/
<hallyn> let's get started
<hallyn> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 28 16:01:01 2014 UTC.  The chair is hallyn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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<coreycb_> o/
<hallyn> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> none
<hallyn> #topic Vervet development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vervet development
<matsubara> o/
<hallyn> smoser: jamespage: wanna take this away?
<smoser> shoudln't it be vivid ?
<hallyn> uh, yeah
<smoser> sure. anyway.
<hallyn> hm, think i got that wrong ina  changelog this mroning
<smoser> right now, we're clearly just starting with this vivid thing.
<smoser> and hallyn is catching up
<smoser> so development at this point would consist of merging from debian, and thinking of feature development / work for the cycle.
<smoser> and getting blue prints together.
<hallyn> any timeline for blueprint creation?
<hallyn> smoser:
<smoser> i dont know actually. i'm not that far along.
<hallyn> ok
<hallyn> thanks
<hallyn> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> nothing particular from our side
<caribou> any question ?
<hallyn> sounds like no, thanks caribou.  moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<hallyn> psivaa_: anything for the server meeting today?
<hallyn> sounds like no, moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> nothing from here today
<hallyn> thanks smb
<hallyn> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<hallyn> we've got ODS next week of course,
<hallyn> anything else?
<rbasak> UOS is coming up too.
<hallyn> good point.  and when is that?
<hallyn> nov 12
<hallyn> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1411/
 * rbasak can't find the reminder email he just received
<rbasak> Ah, thanks.
<rbasak> It's be good to get any blueprint level items agreed before UOS, so we can make decisions during UOS itself instead of endless debate.
<hallyn> ok i see that disucssing EOLing of machine type sis still on teh agenda, but as i recall it was decided that should be brought up on the m-l instead,
<hallyn> #action hallyn to discuss machine type EOLing on ubuntu-server m-l
<meetingology> ACTION: hallyn to discuss machine type EOLing on ubuntu-server m-l
<smoser> thank you rbasak
<hallyn> rbasak: should we do some semi-organized thing where we email proposed blueprints to the mailing list?
<rbasak> That's a good idea.
<hallyn> ok, let's codify that,
<hallyn> #action everyone to email blueprint proposals to mailing list for discussion
<meetingology> ACTION: everyone to email blueprint proposals to mailing list for discussion
<hallyn> thanks, moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> Juju 1.20 will be hitting Trusty in an SRU soon.
<hallyn> compeltely backward-compat??
<rbasak> This is a major version update, so I'd encourage everyone using Juju to test the upload when it arrives in trusty-proposed, and let us know of any regressions.
<rbasak> Yes, it should be fully compatible.
<hallyn> perhaps we should have an agenda item for next week to ask who's been testing?
<rbasak> You might want to update your deployment, but that's up to you.
<rbasak> I'm tracking testing in the bug - bug 1386144.
<ubottu> bug 1386144 in juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty) "juju-core 1.20.11 is not packaged in Ubuntu" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386144
<hallyn> oh, but are we having a meeting next week, or will everyoen be gone for ods
<hallyn> rbasak: sounds good
<rbasak> Probably not worth having a meeting next week?
<hallyn> yeah let's skip to the next week
<hallyn> any other items for open discussion
<rbasak> Next week a bunch of Canonicalers will be at a sprint
<rbasak> Oh, no, that's the week after.
<rbasak> Sorry.
<hallyn> ok, so moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<hallyn> Should be in two weeks, Tuesday Nov 11 2014, 16:00 utc as usual,
<hallyn> matsubara will be chairing
<hallyn> thanks everyeone,
<hallyn> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 28 16:13:56 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-28-16.01.moin.txt
<matsubara> ok. thanks hallyn
<rbasak> Thanks hallyn!
<beisner> thanks hallyn
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 28 17:00:02 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Utopic
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<sforshee> o/
<arges> o/
<bjf> o/
<ppisati> o/
<cking_> o/
<rtg> o/
<smb> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Sept. 30):
<bjf>   *   Lucid -
<bjf>   * Precise -
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 10-Oct through 31-Oct
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>           8-Oct   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf>           09-Oct - 10-Oct   Kernel prep
<bjf>           12-Oct - 18-Oct   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf>           19-Oct - 25-Oct   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf>           26-Oct - 01-Nov   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury>  Vivid Development Kernel update will be added to the minutes posted on the wiki/blog.
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 28 17:09:54 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-28-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-10-29
<jononeone> hi. I really need help with Ubuntu TV on ubuntu 12.04.
<jononeone> I cant start unity-2d after installing ubuntu tv
<genii> jononeone: The support channel is #ubuntu , this channel is for team meetings
<jononeone> ok  where can i get help for the issue ?
<genii> jononeone: /join #ubuntu
<genii> jononeone: And ask in there
<jononeone> ok thanks alot :-)
<jononeone>  /join #ubuntu
<jononeone> ups
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-10-30
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
<barry> o/
<ribru> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 30 15:04:32 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mvo_> hi
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> caribou robru bhuey slangasek cjwatson stgraber infinity mvo sil2100 barry jodh bdmurray doko
<slangasek> caribou: hi!  you can start if you're around :)
<caribou> so me first
<mvo_> you win!
<caribou> Been busy investigating a but on libnss-ldap for ppc64el
<caribou> s/but/bug
<caribou> still am matter of fact : looks like libnss-ldap expect __libc_lock_lock to be provided by the libc
<caribou> which isn't
<caribou> this is only the case on ppc64el
<caribou> rest of the time I have been busy on Maas issues and preparing for the merges of the package I have upload rights for
<caribou> (done)
<slangasek> ribru: you're next
<caribou> but I would eventually appreciate some help on the __lib_lock_lock issue eventually
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> ribru: when do you go  back to being robru? :)
<sil2100> Did I miss anything?
<slangasek> sil2100: caribou's
 * sil2100 is still in a meeting
<ribru> * added mode to citrain to allow for a special staging instance to not step all over production PPAs
<ribru> * prepared a branch to delete archaic 'preprod' mode in favor of this new theoretical staging instance
<ribru> * enabled vivid landings in citrain code
<ribru> * ripped out the option that lets people disable ~rtm version for source builds in RTM (including source syncs but also RTM-first landings)
<ribru> * helped barry test new system-image landing support phased updates
<ribru> * landings, landings, landings.
<ribru> (done)
<ribru> slangasek: heh, when my ribs stop hurting ;-)
<slangasek> hmm :)
<slangasek>  * post-sprint catch-up
<slangasek>  * vivid opening, mostly work related to the phone channels
<slangasek>  * discussions around our channel and branch model for the coming cycle
<slangasek>  * shepherding of partner packages
<slangasek>  * various HR tasks, still have open job reqs, working on filling
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> Did a bunch of work on opening the 15.04 archive, setting up image builds, etc.  Wrote branch-livefses script (unfortunately initially buggy: forgot to copy require_virtualized).
<cjwatson> Planning for my transition to Launchpad Engineering, tentatively scheduled for the end of this year.
<cjwatson> ubiquity SRU for bug 1265192.
<ubottu> bug 1265192 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Trusty) "Install/reinstall wipes out all/other partitions" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1265192
<cjwatson> Working on some initial auto-sync transition fallout: GHC (unsurprisingly) and ImageMagick.
<cjwatson> ..
<stgraber> oh, it's me already, sorry
<stgraber>  - Sprint last week
<stgraber>  - Some vivid opening tasks
<stgraber>  - System-image config/tweaks of the channel list
<stgraber>  - Reviewed and applied the massive LXC patch and pull-requests backlog
<stgraber>  - Some LXC CI work
<stgraber>  - Bunch of private meetings
<stgraber> (DONE)
<LocutusOfBorg1> Hi, I'm a Debian Maintainer in dm list for some packages, the list of packages I currently maintain is ~20, including virtualbox and something more. I started only one month ago my DD process, and I would like to become a  per-package uploader for packages I maintain, unfortunately I don't see in the wiki any page about DM, but only for DDs, what is the best path to achieve (if possible) such goal? thanks
<slangasek> no infinity this morning
<slangasek> mvo_:
<mvo_> Sprint last week, some jetlag this week, Not at work tomorrow
<mvo_> system-image:
<mvo_> - open vivid
<mvo_> - prepare for arm
<mvo_> - Discuss /etc/machine-id vs /var/lib/dbus/machine-id (#1387090)
<mvo_> - push all changes upstream/into vivid (except click and system-image)
<mvo_> apt:
<mvo_> - feature/no-more-acquire-guessing: only support Translation-* that
<mvo_>   is listed in the Release file and simplify acquire code
<mvo_>   (needs lp:~mvo/launchpad/lp1313576-uncompressed  first)
<LocutusOfBorg1> (I'm maintainer since almost 2 years)
<mvo_> - feature/socketpair: open fds in apt and pass to acquire methods
<slangasek> LocutusOfBorg1: hi, you've landed in the middle of a team meeting :)  Maybe you want to ask on #ubuntu-devel?
<mvo_> - followup on dpkg --command-fd (real fix for ubuntustudio-dvd build failure)
<mvo_> - send patch to debian-cd (bug #767253) so that we can have hashes for
<mvo_>   uncompressed Translation-* on the debian-cd
<ubottu> bug 767253 in unity (Ubuntu) "Finish the implementation of sheet style dialogues" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/767253
<mvo_> - Drive by feature/apt-list-sort
<mvo_> misc:
<mvo_> - open apt ddtp for vivid
<mvo_> - command-not-found: Upload fix for #1384864 to utopic-proposed
<mvo_> - command-not-found: update server for vidid
<mvo_> - expenses
<mvo_> - interview for ubuntu-on-air
<mvo_> click:
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg1: this is not a DMB meeting
<mvo_> - Write/send click-service meeting summary from the sprint
<mvo_> - Draft dbus interface
<mvo_> - Review/merge lp:~dpm/click/add-i18n-tools
<mvo_> - Support anonymous downloads from the click store
<mvo_> - Try to reproduce cmake failure for sergio.schvezov in click chroot
<mvo_> - Work on 15.04 click chroots (including some more multi-arch fixes)
<mvo_> - Prepare release 0.4
<mvo_> unattended-upgrades:
<mvo_> - Fix unattended-upgrades-dpkg.log mail to only send a single operation instead\
<mvo_>  of the entire file (Bug#759693)
<mvo_> - Improve documentation
<mvo_> merges:
<mvo_> - Busybox, e2fsprogs, gzip (sponsor), pam, slang2, util-linux, zlib, cron, python-apt, manpages, cwidget, etckeeper, dbus, debhelper, snappy, xapian-core (sync), ust, tftp-hpa, nmap (sync), libpam-ldap, xterm, dpkg, file
<mvo_> - looked at python-couchdb and send patch to debian so that we can eventually sync
<mvo_> (done)
<sil2100> !!
<sil2100> It's me now I suppose
<sil2100> - Devices Sprint in the US!
<sil2100> - Landing team work, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - CI Train maintenance and features:
<sil2100>   * Work on the changelog generation fix
<sil2100> - Many meetings related to milestone planning, critical bug assessment etc.
<sil2100> - Preparing all Landing Team projects for work organization
<sil2100> - Updating Landing Team documentation
<sil2100>   * Created the dashboard link page
<sil2100>   * Prepared the Landing Team processes documentation
<sil2100>   * Finishing up on the main documentation place
<sil2100>   * Started refreshing the RTMLandingApproaches wiki
<sil2100> - Modify the scripts for generating the ubuntu <-> ubuntu-rtm landing diff
<sil2100> - Generating the diff of missing landings
<sil2100> - Fill in bugs for tasks currently being worked on by the LT
<sil2100> - Sending announcement e-mails
<sil2100> - Many more things but no time to write them down!
<sil2100> (done)
<barry> usual post-sprint catch ups, or i.o.w. "jet" lag :)
<barry> system-image: LP: #1341685, LP: #1383539; system-image 2.5.1 (upstream) released; system-image 2.5.1-0ubuntu1~rtm1 waiting for qa sign-off.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1341685 in ubuntu-download-manager (Ubuntu RTM) "When unconstrained, udm sometimes downloads files to wrong location" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1341685
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1383539 in Ubuntu system image "phased update support does not give idempotent answer for each (machine,update)" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1383539
<barry> debuntu: testing of LP: #751939
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 751939 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Wired-only machine has empty volcano icon" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/751939
<barry> (done)
<bdmurray> barry: how was your "flight"?
<barry> bdmurray: brutal
<slangasek> caribou: __libc_lock_lock> have you ruled out this being a bug that would be fixed by a rebuild of libnss-ldap on ppc64el?
<caribou> slangasek: that's what I'm testing atm.
<slangasek> ok :)
<caribou> slangasek: for some reason manual builds and/or sbuild do get me a libnss-ldap library with __libc_lock_lock in use even on amd64
<caribou> slangasek: I'm testing a PPA build atm
<bdmurray> no jodh?
<caribou> slangasek: i.e. the version in the Utopic archive DOES NOT use __libc_lock_lock for amd64 but if I build it locally it does
<bdmurray> updated daisy code to improve nagios retracer status check (LP: #1381964)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1381964 in Daisy "nagios check for retracers not catching errors" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1381964
<bdmurray> submitted RT 75953 regarding OOPSes not going to oops.canonical.com (fixed now)
<bdmurray> research into quantity of retracing failures and how to resolve them
<bdmurray> added more counters to daisy to better understand failures to retrace
<bdmurray> r549 - daisy/retracer.py: add in a counter for retrace failures due to a missing dbgsym package and log release information along with RetraceOutdatedPackages information
<bdmurray> submitted RT #75955 regarding updating daisy to revision r554
<bdmurray> updated errors code to support Ubuntu 15.04
<bdmurray> fixed errors bug LP: #1279448 (hyperlinks hard to identify)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1279448 in Errors "Difficult to see which parts of the problem table and oops pages are links" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1279448
<bdmurray> fixed an OOPS in daisy/submit.py
<bdmurray> foundations bug triage
<bdmurray> updated daisy/retracer.py to verfiy a core dump is a core file before retracing it
<bdmurray> worked with ci-eng team to get whoopsie bug LP: #1339916 fixed in rtm
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1339916 in whoopsie (Ubuntu RTM) "SystemIdentifier can change between reboots" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1339916
<bdmurray> tested my silo with whoopsie and lxc-android-config changes for RTM
<bdmurray> reported whoopsie bug LP: #1382602 (log about unusable connections)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1382602 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "does not log that there are no usable connections" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382602
<bdmurray> reported, fixed whoopsie bug LP: #1386751 (world readable whoopsie-id)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1386751 in whoopsie (Ubuntu Utopic) "whoopsie-id is world readable" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386751
<bdmurray> uploaded Trusty fix for apport bug LP: #1372665
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1372665 in apport (Ubuntu Trusty) "apport reports suspend/resume failure twice on boot (apportcheckresume)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1372665
<bdmurray> uploaded apport to precise proposed fixing LP: #1354571 (invalid core dumps)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1354571 in apport (Ubuntu Precise) "apport-retrace ignores warnings from gdb" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1354571
<bdmurray> â done
<caribou> slangasek: for reference - LP: #1387594
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1387594 in libnss-ldap (Ubuntu Utopic) "init: symbol lookup error: /lib/powerpc64le-linux-gnu/libnss_ldap.so.2: undefined symbol: __libc_lock_lock" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387594
<slangasek> mvo_: btw, were you in the loop on the breakage when they tried to update apt in ubuntu-rtm/14.09 to pull in the security fixes?  Since we're wanting to roll the phone images forward to 14.10 proper, I'm not sure if there's something else that needs looking into there or if it was only an issue because they were selecting a subset of related packages
<mvo_> slangasek: I am not aware of breakage - what happend?
<slangasek> mvo_: bug #1385656
<ubottu> bug 1385656 in packagekit (Ubuntu RTM) "Installation of application from the click store appears not to work" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385656
<slangasek> doko__: here?
<cjwatson> slangasek: I gave feedback in that bug on the proper way forward
<cjwatson> it's fixed in 14.10 already
<slangasek> cjwatson: ok
<cjwatson> not that long after the fork I think
<mvo_> slangasek: thanks, I need to look at this in more detail
<slangasek> mvo_: well, sounds like cjwatson has already answered it when I hadn't noticed, so probably nothing to worry about
<slangasek> looks like no doko today
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> kudos to everyone for a productive sprint last week
<slangasek> (in spite of being split in two rooms due to the release :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 30 15:26:50 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-30-15.04.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<barry> thanks!
<caribou> slangasek: thanks
<mvo_> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-02
<s-fox> Meeting time?
<elfy> yep
<elfy> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov  2 17:59:54 2014 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<elfy> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<elfy> and more or less empty
<elfy> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<elfy> so anyone got any other business for us?
<bapoumba> AOB ?
<s-fox> Any other business
<bapoumba> sorry /o\
<elfy> :)
<s-fox> :)
<elfy> coffeecat cariboo907 ping
<coffeecat> nothing here
<cariboo907> nothing here either
<bapoumba> 2 LoCo teams asked for their sub-forum be reopened
<bapoumba> One I declined (zero activity for a few years)
<elfy> aah yes, that one
<bapoumba> The other elfy has accepted (spam on their own resource that became unusable)
<elfy> I set the Peru one up
<bapoumba> yes
<s-fox> I have no items for discussion, although I am going to be working on the mobile css this month
<bapoumba> ah good s-fox
<bapoumba> needed
<elfy> #action s-fox will start working on mobile css for the forum
<meetingology> ACTION: s-fox will start working on mobile css for the forum
<elfy> :)
<s-fox> We have the list of outstanding tickets to go through
<elfy> yea
<elfy> might be good for someone to take that to look at
<s-fox> I know coffeecat and myself whittled down the huge list to something more manageable
<s-fox> so would suggest looking at post #2
<elfy> the huge list is an index - just because something's been resolved - it doesn't mean it won't come back - as we've seen in the recent past
<elfy> s-fox: when I've added them I've added them to post #1
<s-fox> True, but it is a good a place as any to start. Oh you updated the list? I'll need to have a fresh look :)
<elfy> yep - there's at least 1 new one on there
<elfy> anything else?
<coffeecat> not here
<bapoumba> There is one Admin that resigned
<bapoumba> So we are down to 6
<elfy> #topic Team Report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Team Report
<elfy> who's going to take that this month?
<s-fox> I can do it tomorrow
<elfy> \o/ thanks s-fox
<s-fox> Welcome
<elfy> #action s-fox to produce team report
<meetingology> ACTION: s-fox to produce team report
<bapoumba> well, it can be done tonight
<bapoumba> :)
<elfy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Nov  2 18:12:09 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-02-17.59.moin.txt
<elfy> thanks everyone
<coffeecat> thanks elfy
<bapoumba> thank you elfy
<s-fox> If you wish it done tonight, then someone else needs to do it :(
<cariboo907> that was quick ")
<bapoumba> Takes 5 mins s-fox, if we are to talk after the meeting, can be done as mutlitasking
<s-fox> I'm on my cell phone ;)
<elfy> not so easy on an i-phone bapoumba ;)
<elfy> heh
<bapoumba> ah :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-10-26
<xnox> hello
<xnox> cyphermox: hello, how are you? =)
<cyphermox> hey
<xnox> cyphermox: are we meant to have a meeting or some such?
<xnox> cyphermox: do we have any agenda items?
<cyphermox> heh, woops. it's not actually my turn to chair, but whatever
<cyphermox> I had chaired in place of Laney last time :)
<xnox> cyphermox: did you do it last time? in that case it would be micahg turn
<cyphermox> yeah
<xnox> Next DMB meetings (Chair: Mathieu): is not helpful then on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<cyphermox> but still, I think we just have the agenda item for membership to uploaders
<cyphermox> xnox: indeed, but it's because I thought it not good to change the order for one case of switching
<cyphermox> I can chair again, don't mind :)
<xnox> well we don't have any applicants.
<xnox> and I'm not sure how many people are around.
<cyphermox> infinity is probably away on vacation this week
<cyphermox> ah, Laney is on holiday too
<cyphermox> bdmurray: hey
<cyphermox> micahg will be back in a few minutes and we can start the meeting then, I suppose.
<cyphermox> #startmeeting DMB 2015-10-26
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 26 15:31:05 2015 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-10-26 Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #voters micahg cyphermox xnox bdmurray
<meetingology> Current voters: bdmurray cyphermox micahg xnox
<cyphermox> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<cyphermox> #topic Review of the previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-10-26 Meeting | Current topic: Review of the previous action items
<cyphermox> Laney isn't around, so we'll just skip to the main topic, I guess
<cyphermox> #subtopic Granting membership for PPU/packageset uploaders by default
<xnox> +1
<cyphermox> do we want to discuss this before we vote?
<micahg> so, my position is that some should have membership and some shouldn't
<cyphermox> This is about the default process for PPU/packageset uploaders, whether they should ask to have membership too when they apply for upload rights
<micahg> PPU doesn't, flavor packagesets should, other packagesets were not decided from what I remember
<xnox> micahg: the question, whether it's opt-in, or opt-out.
<micahg> right, so, it's a mix
<cyphermox> why shouldn't PPU? and under which conditions do you feel packagesets might or might not?
<micahg> so, the whole goal was to lower the bar for PPU so that more people can apply when they have the technical skills, but not the significant and sustained part
<cyphermox> fair enough
<cyphermox> still though, doesn't the significant and sustained part get implicitly verified in the way that we account for whether they have the technical skills?
<micahg> so, ,if we're doing that, I would think it should be like any other membership where the applicant needs to apply for it
<micahg> it could
<cyphermox> ok
<xnox> well.
<xnox> if one wants upload rights apply for PPU for a package and/or packagest.
<cyphermox> I feel it might be a little counterproductive to get them to ask for it, etc when they go for upload rights -- if we're to do that, we might as well have them apply to the RMB simply
<xnox> if one wants membership apply for contributing member, MOTU, or core.
<xnox> cyphermox: we have developer path to membership only - contributing developer.
<micahg> I think it should be made abundantly clear to applicants that if they're just going for PPU or a packageset where there isn't a requirement for significant & sustained contribution that they have the option to apply to dev membership as well if they feel they've fulfilled the significant and sustained piece as well
<cyphermox> oh, true
<cyphermox> so, should we vote then?
<micahg> it's basically was it 1 upload every 6 months or something a bit more significant
<cyphermox> fwiw, Laney's vote was +1, but he didn't take part of the discussion here now
<micahg> but as xnox said, the DMB is still the best place to grant that membership
<micahg> * evaluate and grant
<micahg> my problem with opt-out is that it increases the risk we'll reject applicants, if it's opt-in, worst case is they have to come back in 2 weeks
<bdmurray> How does that work?
<bdmurray> "> Individuals, when they apply to the DMB for packageset or PPU rights,
<bdmurray> > will be considered separately for their upload access and for Ubuntu
<bdmurray> > membership (the latter being optional, and usually not explicitly
<bdmurray> > requested)."
<cyphermox> should we make it explicitly clear with the applicant then whether they expect to be considered for membership at the meeting?
<bdmurray> No, "we didn't expect people to have to say they want membership too"
<micahg> that was not my understanding
<cyphermox> no, we didn't expect, but we can ask
<micahg> I thought for the PPU/packagesets where it wasn't coupled, they would have to ask explicitly
<bdmurray> Okay, and the way I read Laney's email is that we will asume they want to be considered for membership.
<micahg> right, that seems to be his position
<cyphermox> that's the way I read it too
<bdmurray> But the two things aren't coupled together.
<micahg> well, for some they were (flavor & kernel packagesets, MOTU/core-dev)
<cyphermox> so, voting?
<cyphermox> #vote Should uploaders be granted Ubuntu membership by default
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should uploaders be granted Ubuntu membership by default
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<micahg> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from micahg
<micahg> wait
<micahg> that should be a little more narrow, no?
<micahg> Should PPU/certain packagesets be granted Ubuntu membership by default?
<cyphermox> no, we should reject Laney's proposition explicitly, I think
<micahg> ok
<cyphermox> or I can close the voting, reject, and we reconvene and further specify it?
<cyphermox> I'm +0, btw, because it should be more specific; this depends on packagesets/packages
<bdmurray> Are we saying the vote subject is about what is in the iki page?
<micahg> you're right, we should vote on what was proposed since the proponent isn't here
<micahg> we can then vote on follow up pieces if we want
<cyphermox> bdmurray: the vote subject probably should be the specific thing Laney added as a topic?
<bdmurray> the email he links to says "it's about whether we
<bdmurray> should give these applicants membership implicitly and only use our
<bdmurray> right to not give membership when it is needed."
<cyphermox> it's super unclear, that's the problem
<bdmurray> alright
<cyphermox> it's a case-by-case basis and we're trying to codify that
<cyphermox> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> xnox: ?
<bdmurray> I feel like this has been outstanding for quite some time.
<cyphermox> bdmurray: yes
<cyphermox> bdmurray: I'm not against voting on the specific cases now
<cyphermox> or if everyone agrees that Laney meant what we were saying before
<cyphermox> (basically, that we give it by default, unless we have a reason not to (ie. not sustained)
<bdmurray> I don't want to make that assumption.
 * bdmurray spoke too soon
<cyphermox> bdmurray: I understand what you mean
<cyphermox> xnox: bdmurray: are you voting or do you think we should refine it first?
<xnox> i'm for: contributing, motu, core -> implies membership. the rest do not.
<cyphermox> xnox: that's a strong -1 then, and PPU/packageset requesters should apply for contributing explicitly?
<xnox> yeah.
<bdmurray> I guess it needs some refining.
<cyphermox> ok, let's see if we can convey this properly in the logs
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should uploaders be granted Ubuntu membership by default
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion denied
<cyphermox> #rejected
<cyphermox> should we refine this now? have we already done so and vote on a different, more specific topic?
<bdmurray> I think Laney should be involved in the refinement.
<cyphermox> ok, then
<cyphermox> #action cyphermox to update wiki for refinement of Laney's proposition
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to update wiki for refinement of Laney's proposition
<cyphermox> #topic AOB?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-10-26 Meeting | Current topic: AOB?
<cyphermox> anyone has something else to discuss today?
<bdmurray> nope
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> #topic Chair selection for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-10-26 Meeting | Current topic: Chair selection for the next meeting
<cyphermox> micahg: your turn according to the wiki list
<cyphermox> unless you know you won't be there
<micahg> ok :)
<micahg> no, I should be there
<cyphermox> #action micahg to chair next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to chair next meeting
<micahg> which reminds me, I need to send the doodle poll for meeting times
<micahg> might as well action that..
<cyphermox> #action micahg to send doodle poll for meeting times
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to send doodle poll for meeting times
<micahg> thanks :)
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 26 16:14:39 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-26-15.31.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks everyone :)
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<jjohansen> o/
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 26 16:33:48 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> hello
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> I'm working on the various tasks for click-apparmor and policy for xenial
<jdstrand> I'm then going to be working on cleaning up snappy policy generation
<jdstrand> and some review tools updates
<jdstrand> that's it for me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> I just released mysql updates
<mdeslaur> and I have an embargoed issue to test
<mdeslaur> after that, I have some ntp updates to test properly and release
<mdeslaur> and will go down the list after that
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: , you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week
<sbeattie> I'm finishig testing the openjdk-7 update
<sbeattie> I'm also working on the gcc pie patches
<sbeattie> I have some yak shaving to finish up for xenial opening and to prep for the sprint
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for my week, though I'm hoping to pick up another update as well
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're it
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I need to do some sprint prep
<tyhicks> I'm in the middle of the Mir attestable timestamps and mapplauncherd reviews
<tyhicks> and still hoping to get to AppArmor kernel fix reviews
<tyhicks> helping out with the update backlog would be good, too
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I still working on the kernel patches for apparmor stacking
<jjohansen> I will also have some sprint prep this week
<jjohansen> and I should get the 4.3 apparmor patch tree in order so its ready for 4.3 when in lands
<jjohansen> thats it for me sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; there's a few xenial-open tasks held over fro mlast week, perhaps embargoed updates to work on, and a long list of apparmor kernel patches to review
<sarnold> also of course some sprint preperation
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<tyhicks> he had to step away
<tyhicks> we'll move on
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/radare2.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-jquery-rails.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/async-http-client.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/php-mail.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/k4dirstat.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 26 16:48:14 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-26-16.33.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-10-27
<hallyn> \o - should we cancel today's mtg bc tokyo?
<thedac> makes sense to me. Most of the openstack team is in Tokyo
<hallyn> yeah - \o see you all next week :)
<smb> hallyn, I guess that means no meeting today
<hallyn> smb: yup.  unless someone (i.e. rbasak) ha ssomething important to discuss regarding x
<hallyn> \o
<smb> Ok so next week... between sprint and UOS
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Xenial
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<sforshee> o/
<henrix> o/
<bjf> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<arges> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 27 17:00:49 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Xenial Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Xenial Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Our Xenial kernel is open for development.  The repo's have been opened
<ogasawara> in LP:
<ogasawara>     git://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-kernel/ubuntu/+source/linux/+git/xenial
<ogasawara>     git://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-kernel/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+git/xenial
<ogasawara>     git://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-kernel/ubuntu/+source/linux-signed/+git/xenial
<ogasawara> Our Xenial master branch is still tracking Wily's v4.2 based kernel.
<ogasawara> However, Xenial master-next is currently rebased to v4.3-rc7.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 31 - Alpha 1 (~ weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-cves.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/lts-utopic/Vivid/Wily (bjf)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/lts-utopic/Vivid/Wily (bjf)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *     Precise - Testing and Verification
<bjf>   *      Trusty - Testing and Verification
<bjf>   *  lts-Utopic - Testing and Verification
<bjf>   *       Vivid - Testing and Verification
<bjf>   *        Wily - Testing and Verification
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current cycle: 18-Oct through 07-Nov
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf> 16-Oct   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 18-Oct - 24-Oct   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 25-Oct - 31-Oct   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 01-Nov - 07-Nov   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Next cycle: 08-Nov through 28-Nov
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          06-Nov   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 08-Nov - 14-Nov   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 15-Nov - 21-Nov   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 22-Nov - 28-Nov   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 27 17:03:35 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-27-17.00.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-10-29
<barry> o/
<caribou> \o
<robru> o~
<pitti> o/
<tdaitx> \o
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 29 15:03:11 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<chiluk> o/
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx)
<slangasek> cyphermox caribou doko bdmurray slangasek barry tdaitx infinity sil2100 pitti robru
<cyphermox> yay!
<cyphermox>  - last week: release sprint
<cyphermox>    - much fixing of last-minute issues: udisks2/polkit, localechooser, console-setup
<cyphermox>    - some fun package removal selections debugging with Laney in ubiquity
<cyphermox>    - fixing boot device selection issues on ppc64el
<cyphermox>  - fwupdate snapshot + fixing some bugs in the snapshot
<cyphermox>    - got slightly hindered by binutils bugs earlier this week
<cyphermox>  - merging d-i components: iso-scan, choose-mirror, cdrom-detect...
<cyphermox>  - updated syslinux-themes-ubuntu to add xenial.
<sil2100> o/ Sorry for being late
<cyphermox>  - started merging apt-setup
<cyphermox>  - sponsoring grub2 fix for arm* for dannf.
<cyphermox>  - completing the multipath-tools update + SRU for upgrades from < wily
<cyphermox>    - lots of testing since this means changing /etc/fstab
<cyphermox>  - investigating netcfg changes for bug LP: #1452202
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1452202 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452202
<cyphermox>  - ipmitool SRU for bug LP: #1509896
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1509896 in ipmitool (Ubuntu) "IPMI USB SCSI endpoint discovery can fail on OpenPower machines" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1509896
<cyphermox>  - digging into lvm2 cyclic dependency (bug LP: #1497688)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1497688 in lvm2 (Ubuntu) "dmsetup and libdevmapper1.02.1 fail to install, depend on each other" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1497688
<cyphermox> (done)
<sil2100> (DST again)
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou> - Precise SAN/LVM boot hang Most probably a config issue
<caribou> Knowledge transfer :
<caribou> Blog post on Kdump-tools modification - Need to talk to Debian kernel team about applying upstream
<caribou> Blog post on crashdump charm
<caribou> Z series reading & training
<caribou> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<chiluk> slick caribou re: crashdump charm ..
<slangasek> bdrung:
<slangasek> eh
<slangasek> bdmurray:
 * slangasek kicks his irc client that isn't even alphabetical
<doko> ohh, moved an hour early?
<bdmurray> updated LP: #1505818 regarding successful retrace after SAS removal                                                                                                    updated daisy, errors for xenial                                                                                                                                       created apport-test-crashes for xenial
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1505818 in Daisy "Need a method to ask for a core file for a failed to retrace crash" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1505818
<slangasek> doko: yes, we're in the middle of the DST dance now
<bdmurray> investigation into software-center debconf issue (LP: #1389582)                                                                                                        reported / tested ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1506971                                                                                                             research into / fixing of ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1509305
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1389582 in software-center (Ubuntu) "software-center misses a dependency on libgtk2-perl" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389582
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1506971 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-release-upgrader apport_crash code should filter out dpkg returning 1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1506971
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1509305 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Wily) "new kernel removed after upgrade if linux meta package not installed" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1509305
 * doko is writing the summary
<bdmurray> W SRU verification of bug LP: #1504897                                                                                                                                 T SRU verification of apport bug LP: 1336462                                                                                                                           P, T, V SRU of apport bug LP: #1500450
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1504897 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "packages with only upstart+systemd without sysvinit fail to upgrade with do-release-upgrade: upgrade tarballs ship obsolete invoke-rc.d" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1504897
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1336462 in apport (Ubuntu Trusty) "Make apport collect some Power information" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1336462
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1500450 in apport (Ubuntu Vivid) "/usr/share/apport/package_hook:FileExistsError:/usr/share/apport/package_hook@64:make_report_file" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1500450
<bdmurray> investigation into / fixing of LP: #1506169
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1506169 in software-properties (Ubuntu Wily) "if linux metapackage is installed software properties will uninstall it" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1506169
<bdmurray> updated meta-release-proposed for Wily                                                                                                                                 setup rls-x- and other xenial reports                                                                                                                                  uploaded new ubuntu-release-upgrader for xenial
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> doko: do you need more time to write? should we get you at the end?
 * barry gets to dance the dst-jig sunday morning
<slangasek>  * archive is open; clearing merge backlog
<slangasek>  * fielding customer questions about openjdk support
<slangasek>  * working on our secureboot story for fwupdate
<slangasek>  * assisting with partner questions about cryptsetup and snappy
<slangasek>  * s390x planning
<slangasek>  * discussion on maas 1.8 SRU
<slangasek> (done)
<barry> debugging, reporting, testing issues related to bogus egg-info leaking into python3.5 versioned path in python3-* binary packages.  fixed now in dh-python git, verified this fixes affected packages with workarounds removed.  prep affected packages for uploads to remove workarounds once new dh-python hits archive.
<barry> started looking at python-coverage 4.0.1, discuss with maintainer.
<sil2100> When is my turn?
<barry> zope-interface 4.1.3-1; debian bug #802415; python-cachecontrol 0.11.5-1.1 (nmu->git); debian bug #802130; numpydoc 0.5-1 and 0.5-2 reviewed and sponsored; zope.event 4.1.0-1; debian bug #802113 & zope.i18n 4.0.1-3; debian bug #802130 & chameleon 2.24-1
<ubottu> Debian bug 802415 in src:zope.schema "zope.schema: FTBFS: Missing build-dep on zope.interface(?)" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/802415
<ubottu> Debian bug 802130 in src:python-chameleon "python-chameleon: FTBFS: KeyError: '__wrapped__'" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/802130
<ubottu> Debian bug 802113 in src:zope.i18n "zope.i18n: FTBFS: Tries to download zope.testing from pypy" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/802113
<slangasek> sil2100: after tdaitx
<barry> LP: #1510558
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510558 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "ppa shortcut handler exception stops shortcut resolution" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510558
<barry> review of robru cupstream2distro branch
<barry> working with other python.org sysadmins to move mail.python.org after catastrophic failure of 15+ year old machine.
<barry> reviewing xenial-proposed promotion failures
<barry> --done--
<tdaitx> Current/Past
<tdaitx> - Backported 8u65 security patches to openjdk-7-7u85-2.6.1 for Wily;
<tdaitx> backported one changeset from JDK8 and one non security 8u65 patch as well; provided backports to Vivid, Trusty, and Precise
<tdaitx> - Tested IcedTea 2.6.2 pre02 release; so far only xrender patch had to be removed (as it was upstreamed); sent arm64 zero build issue upstream, fixed right away
<tdaitx> - Tested and provided IcedTea 2.6.2 debdiff; based on 7u85-2.6.1-5, doko based it on 7u85-2.6.1-6 and fixed the debian dir permissions (sorry about that and thanks!)
<tdaitx> - Started backporting 7u91 patches to OpenJDK 6; investigating a few additional failures compared to the last build
<tdaitx> - Tested IcedTea 1.13.9 pre release, alles gut; reported back to IcedTea devs
<tdaitx> -
<tdaitx> Next steps
<tdaitx> - pack IcedTea 1.13.9, provide backports for all supported series
<tdaitx> - verify OpenJDK 6 TLS patch (LP: #1482924)
<tdaitx> - get back to TCK and schedule a whole load of tests
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1482924 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Regressions due to USN-2696-1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1482924
<tdaitx> - enjoy the sprint
<tdaitx> Waiting/On hold
<tdaitx> - waiting OCA to submit webrevs for 7093640 backport (set TLS 1.1 as default for JDK 6 and TLS 1.2 as default for JDK 7); not blocking anything for now, just waiting
<tdaitx> (done)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - appmenu-qt5:
<sil2100>   * More investigation on the shortcut bug, multiple Qt rebuilds
<sil2100> - +1-maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Various no-change rebuilds for the ocaml transition
<sil2100> - Preparing for some seed additions, fixing language fonts
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Preparing basic tagging functionality to support OTA notations in system-settings
<sil2100>   * Preparing krillin for a test-flash (battling ubuntu-device-flash)
<sil2100>   * Exporting local system-image server for QA testing
<sil2100> - Flight preparations
<sil2100> - Working hours moved more to the evening due looking for an apartment to buy
<sil2100> (done)
<pitti> release engineering:
<pitti>  - help with ISO testing, archive maintenance etc. for wily
<pitti>  - set up autopkgtest, apport retracers, ddebs for xenial
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - set up autopkgtesting for ppc64el in ScalingStack; lots of problems and RTs, ongoing
<pitti>  - adjust kernel package installation to work around linux-meta inconsistency on precise
<pitti>  - draft https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-x-proposed-migragion
<pitti> systemd:
<pitti>  - continue to debug boot race condition (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/1505)
<pitti>  - investigate networkd regression in trunk (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/1645)
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - Fix a lot of broken upgrades due to ubuntu-release-upgrader bug (#1504897)
<pitti>  - apport security fix (#1507480), fix test suite failures
<pitti>  - fix test regressions in apt-clone, click-apparmor, gexiv2, python-astropy, ubuntu-drivers-common
<pitti>  - fix FTBFS of gnucash, sleuthkit, python-apt
<pitti>  - merges: gnome-color-manager, init-system-helpers, openimageio, openvpn, systemd, util-linux, debhelper
<pitti>  - investigate juju lxc container build bug (#1509747)
<pitti>  - wpasupplicant:  Add workaround for wifi failure after resuming (#1422143)
<pitti>  - prepare systemd.conf talk
<pitti>  - Help Chipaca with snappy network config unit
<pitti>  - Help stgraber with lxcfs regression
<pitti> EOT
<robru> lp:cupstream2distro
<robru> - fix bug generating version numbers for packages that were previously reverted
<robru> - refactor publish job bringing it inline with "phase" mechanism used by other jobs
<robru> - re-report silo dirty statuses (if any) after silo build completes
<robru> - detect new commits when deciding which packages to build
<robru> - scan all silos for new commits every 15 minutes, marking dirty if commits found
<robru> - fix unhandled traceback when request has invalid sync source set
<robru> - enable xenial & prevent publishing wily-based dual silos.
<robru> - improve accuracy when checking that dest archive has a release not in project trunk
<robru> - Switch to simpler file format for storing important version numbers on disk; rip out a bunch of parsing logic for the old format
<robru> - write branch revids later during build so that train doesn't accidentally consider revids built when build fails (more accurate detection of which packages require building in build job)
<robru> - ton of pep8 cleanups as wily version of pep8 is now more strict than previous versions
<robru> - begun implementing some amqp logic necessary for submitting autopkgtest requests against silo PPAs
<robru> - overhaul of silo locking to prevent different jobs from running in the same silo simultaneously.
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> - automatically detect & reconnect to db when connection drops (fortunately this wasn't a problem in production but staging went totally crazy dropping connections constantly)
<robru> - switch default series to xenial+vivid
<robru> - fix link to excuses page for xenial+vivid silos
<robru> lp:phablet-tools
<robru> - drastic overhaul of citrain tool to allow installing deps from overlay & archive if silos explicitly require it, but otherwise ignoring updates from those places.
<robru> lp:canonical-mojo-specs
<robru> - change jenkins/0 unit ephemeral disk from 10gb to 30gb so the next deploy won't have so many disk issues constantly
<robru> (done)
<doko> - xenial opening activities
<doko> - got Python 3.5 as the default
<doko> - giflib5 transition
<doko> - openjdk-7 review and uploads
<doko> - tracking, forwarding, fixing binutils issues
<doko> - xenial development announce mail
<doko> - some work on outstanding SRUs
<doko> - first merges for xenial
<doko> - trying to point out some work needing transitions on +1-maintenance
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> chiluk: anything you want to report on?
<chiluk> just wanted to announce my ucd application
<chiluk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/chiluk
<slangasek> \o/
<cyphermox> cool.
<chiluk> I'd appreciate any and all comments/ support
<tdaitx> nice =)
<chiluk> also I'm still working on the trusty backport for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/coreutils/+bug/1432871
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1432871 in coreutils (Ubuntu Vivid) "`df` shows bind mounts instead of real mounts." [Undecided,In progress]
<chiluk> Hopefully I"ll have that completed today.  Vivid and wily seem to not have issue.
<chiluk> thanks slangasek
<chiluk> done
<slangasek> great
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Sprint, UOS planning
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Sprint, UOS planning
<slangasek> UOS and the sprint, both coming up next week
<slangasek> if there's anything you expect to be talking to other people about at either event next week, please make sure you get it submitted to the corresponding schedule
<slangasek> e.g. http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1511/create_meeting/ or just create and target a blueprint in launchpad
<slangasek> and for the sprint schedule, https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rTTErfbJmBWM91uUvs0dmILcJujxskTf_ULSoGpxkYo/edit
<slangasek> agenda, rather
<slangasek> there is actually a schedule as well; meetings are being scheduled on the Client Track calendar
<chiluk> slangasek can you expound on the maas 1.8 discussions?  Is it just SRU issues?
<slangasek> if anyone doesn't have access to that let me know
<caribou> cyphermox: can we spare some time to look over BUG #1491894
<ubottu> bug 1491894 in grub2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "lucid to precise to trusty upgrade may leave system unbootable" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491894
<cyphermox> caribou: yep
<caribou> cyphermox: I'll add it to the schedule just to remember
<cyphermox> cool.
<slangasek> chiluk: just about the fact that we don't actually have an exception on the books for maas yet for SRUs; infinity let the 1.7 version through provisionally, and the plan was to revisit that for the next one and see how it had gone, but infinity is on vacation this week so I got drawn into it - it'll have to wait for infinity to come back with his context
<chiluk> I figured as much
<chiluk> fyi I'm a big fan of 1.8 over 1.7...
<chiluk> but the process needs to be followed.
<slangasek> yep :)
<cyphermox> caribou: you adding our agenda item or should I do it?
<caribou> cyphermox: go ahead, I don't have edit rights
<cyphermox> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<caribou> yes, what is the official support status of Wubi on Trusty ?
<bdmurray> o/
<caribou> can we still propose SRUs for it ?
<barry> slangasek: do you know if we're going to have desktop representation at the sprint?
<slangasek> caribou: as far as I recall, wubi was supported in trusty only to the extent that it was needed for the autorun.exe
<slangasek> barry: no one coming to the sprint, no
<caribou> slangasek: ok
<barry> slangasek: ok
<slangasek> bdmurray: ?
<bdmurray> I could use help verifying bug 1506169 as its hardware specific. Or pitti if you know some way to fake the hardware...
<ubottu> bug 1506169 in software-properties (Ubuntu Wily) "if linux metapackage is installed software properties will uninstall it" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1506169
<pitti> desktop just had a sprint in London; indeed a bit sad that we are now so separated :/
<barry> pitti: yeah, and we do need input from desktop re: python3-only efforts
<pitti> bdmurray: if you run software-properties-gtk under /usr/share/ubuntu-drivers-common/fake-devices-wrapper you should have an nvidia and an amd card, and a broadcom wifi
<pitti> bdmurray: but that only affects the one program you run under it, not a whole dist-upgrade
<pitti> but in fact it seems that ths should suffice for this bug?
<bdmurray> pitti: yes it should, thanks!
<pitti> barry: the wrapper script quite short, you can of course  kick out the aticard and bcmwifi bits
<barry> bdmurray ^^ :)
<pitti> err, thanks barry :)
<slangasek> (at least that tab complete was alphabetical ;)
<pitti> slangasek: it's not; it's "who spoke last"
<slangasek> pitti: I know
<pitti> which DTRT in most cases, but if someone else speask in between it breaks muscle memory :)
<slangasek> ok, anything else?
<pitti> we need to practice saying "howdy y'all" again!
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 29 15:36:38 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-29-15.03.moin.txt
<pitti> thanks everyone
<caribou> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<slangasek> see you in Texas!
<cyphermox> thanks!
<caribou> Yeehaa!
<pitti> safe flights everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-10-30
<sallon> Hello body, i would like to know if modprobe work with ubuntu 14.04 for disable and enabel after reboot system ?
<dupingping> just a question, ubuntu membership certificate mail is registered mail or common mail?
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-10-31
<mdeslaur> \o
<chrisccoulson> o/
<ratliff> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 31 16:30:57 2016 UTC.  The chair is ratliff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ratliff> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<ratliff> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<ratliff> Nikita Yerenkov-Scott (arthur-dent) provided debdiffs for trusty-xenial for tracker (LP: #1178402)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1178402 in tracker (Ubuntu Xenial) "tracker-extract crashed with signal 5 in g_malloc()" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1178402
<ratliff> Scott Kitterman (ScottK) provided a debdiff for trusty for kdepimlibs (LP: #1631237)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1631237 in kdepimlibs (Ubuntu Trusty) "KMail: HTML injection in plain text viewer" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1631237
<ratliff> Simon Quigley (tsimonq2) provided a debdiff for precise for kdepimlibs (LP: #1630700)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1630700 in kcoreaddons (Ubuntu Xenial) "CVE - KMail - HTML injection in plain text viewer" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1630700
<ratliff> Nikita Yerenkov-Scott (arthur-dent) provided debdiffs for xenial-yakkety for openjpeg2 (LP: #1630702)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1630702 in openjpeg2 (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Fix for CVE-2016-8332 and CVE-2016-7163" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1630702
<ratliff> Andreas Cadhalpun (andreas-cadhalpun) provided a debdiff for xenial for ffmpeg (LP: #1581156)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1581156 in ffmpeg (Ubuntu) "Update to bugfix release 2.8.8 in Xenial" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1581156
<ratliff> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<ratliff> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm still in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have a couple of updates I'm testing
<mdeslaur> and I'm working on a couple of embargoed issues
<mdeslaur> that's about it for me
<mdeslaur> hrm, who's next?
<ratliff> chrisccoulson ?
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<chrisccoulson> this week, I'll be mostly working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oxide/+spec/ubuntu-webview-implementation, which is blocking a bunch of personal-related work we discussed at the sprint
<chrisccoulson> I need to publish Oxide (it's all tested already). I don't have any other updates planned
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<ratliff> I'll jump in and go next. We have some team members out due to illness, appointments, and vacation.
<ratliff> I'm on CVE triage this week.
<ratliff> I'm working on a project to review open CVEs for universe packages.
<ratliff> for the record, sarnold is on bug triage and tyhicks is on community this week
<ratliff> jjohansen: do you want to go next?
<jjohansen> sure
<jjohansen> I'm trying to finish up some gsettings review and related work, and I have some bugs to look at (and file), there is a memory leak, and lxd related issue with some files being passed into the container. Neither of which have bugs yet
<jjohansen> oh and I need to upstream the change_hat() fix
<jjohansen> cboltz really needs that one
<jjohansen> thats it for me ratliff back to you
<ratliff> thank you!
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<ratliff> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<ratliff> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pykerberos.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/maven-indexer.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/revelation.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sanlock.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lib3ds.html
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<ratliff> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<ratliff> mdeslaur, jjohansen, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<ratliff> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 31 16:43:35 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-10-31-16.30.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks ratliff !
<jjohansen> thanks ratliff
<tsimonq2> ratliff: Thanks for the mention. ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-01
<nacc> o/
<nacc> although we may be skipping today?
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Yeah, I think we can. Many Canonical people are out - due to a sprint and a public holiday in France and Germany.
<rbasak> Does anyone object?
<smoser> o/
<smoser> i do not object
<nacc> heh
<nacc> neither do I
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-02
<legreffier> hello here :)
<legreffier> i had some launchpad+main_mail_adress problem, so i failed to receive the "click the i'm still alive button" on launchpad to maintain my ubuntu-membership.
<legreffier> so my @ubuntu.com mail alias stopped working several days ago.
<legreffier> we solved the launchpad account problem, now i kindly ask to be added again to ubuntu-members, so i get my alias back on.
<legreffier> despite i'm not active anymore since a bunch of years, i still use that a lot :]
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-03
<legreffier> hi hi :) anyone up ?
<legreffier> got no feedback yesterday , here or through mail.
<barry> north american o/
<bdmurray> yeah?
<robru> \o
<sil2100> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<sil2100> (almost missed it, time shift)
<sil2100> If anything, I'll need some time to prep a report
<tdaitx> sil2100, hold on until Nov 16, US also drops daylight saving by then
<sil2100> I think slangasek is on a sprint this week?
<xnox> and pitti too
<robru> yeah
<xnox> skip?! =)
<tdaitx> yes, he is... oh I was waiting for pitti
<bdmurray> cyphermox is at some event too
<sil2100> Let's just assume everyone was doing 'stuff'
<sil2100> ;)
<robru> ah, stuff, i'm good at that
<cyphermox> well, I'm kind of still around
<tdaitx> * stuff
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> have yet to go get breakfast and get to the conference venue
<bdmurray> I wrote up the stuffs
<cyphermox> so I've been trying to get online monday and tuesday, wednesday for part of the day, preparing updates for wpa, crda, wireless-regdb, and also working on finishing up those juju-core SRUs
<cyphermox> and now also the merge of devscripts.
<cyphermox> network here is abysmal
<bdmurray> I hope its not a networking conference
<tdaitx> cyphermox, where is that?
<cyphermox> Santa Fe.
<cyphermox> bdmurray: as if... it's Plumbers, and we noticed the issues Tuesday during the wireless workshop ;)
<barry> only 3 of us on mumble.  i think we can skip it
<bdmurray> If you are running Xenial please test the apt microrelease in -proposed.
<caribou> bdmurray: no problem for me with that apt microrelease
<cyphermox> bdmurray: there's other stuff I needed to test in xenial-proposed (juju-core upgrade), so I'll do that in the same container
<cyphermox> specific things we should look out for?
<bdmurray> not breaking!
<slangasek> sil2100: correct!
<slangasek> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-04
<legreffier> Hello ! I still didn't get any feedback here or with the mail I sent to the ML on wednesday :/
<legreffier> I realize it might not be the right place (ml seemed legit, though)
<legreffier> is there somewwhere better maybe ?
<legreffier> Thanks a lot !
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-10-30
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<leosilva> o/
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 30 16:33:18 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> * finalize snappy-debug fixes (based on sprint feedback)
<jdstrand> * follow through on some policy updates for 2.29
<jdstrand> * layouts reviews (as needed)
<jdstrand> * various followups for two reported regressions in udev tagging/device cgroups
<jdstrand> * verify uhid interface is working correctly after udev tagging
<jdstrand> * look into broadcom-asic-control interface bug where interface is not connected if the module doesn't exist
<jdstrand> * continue uid/gid seccomp arg filtering as have time
<jdstrand> that's what I plan to work on this week ^
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on CVE triage this week
<mdeslaur> and I'm working on quagga updates
<mdeslaur> I'll be picking up something else after that
<mdeslaur> that's about it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I've got a couple leftover tasks from the apparmor online sprint to finish up
<sbeattie> kernel updates should be happening this week, so I need to finish some signoff tasks and publish USNs for those
<sbeattie> I have openjdk-8 updates from tdaitx to test and publish
<sbeattie> after all that, I'll try to pick up another update or two
<sbeattie> that's it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> sbeattie: I think CVE tracking for snaps should still be a high priority for this week
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I'm still trying to get to eCryptfs kernel patch review
<tyhicks> then I'll start working on squashfs image reproduceability
<tyhicks> I also have some embargoed issues
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up (jj is out)
<sbeattie> tyhicks: fair point.
<tyhicks> sarnold isn't here yet
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: you're up
<chrisccoulson> I've got a chromium update to test and publish
<chrisccoulson> There was also an unscheduled firefox release last week which I wasn't aware of until after it happened. I'm not sure yet whether to ship that
<chrisccoulson> Then I've got to get rust updated to 1.21
<leosilva> wee, rust updates.
<chrisccoulson> I'd like to think I'd get time to do something else this week, but that hasn't worked very well in recent weeks
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<chrisccoulson> leosilva, yeah, fun ;)
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week.
<ratliff> I have some writing assignments. When those are done, I want to work on integrating InfluxDB into our KPIs.
<ratliff> on to you, leosilva
<leosilva> I'm bug triage this week.
<leosilva> I did push some USN this morning
<leosilva> I have some bug to investigate in bug triage role
<leosilva> besides that I'll do my usual hunting for pkg to update.
<leosilva> That's all for me.
<leosilva> tyhicks: it's back to you!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/git-hub.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/guacamole-client.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/revelation.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-rack.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ettercap.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<sarnold> sorry I'm late, I lost track of time
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 30 16:45:41 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-10-30-16.33.moin.txt
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead and mention your plans for the week and I'll include them in the wiki page
<sarnold> tyhicks: community this week, there's the spice-vdagent to finish up, pcp review, apparmor patche review if necessary, and an embargoed issue
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks :)
<tyhicks> thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-10-31
<slashd> o/
<smoser> o/
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 31 16:02:19 2017 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<nacc> o/
<smoser> A spooooky hello to everyone.
<smoser> Its now time for the Weekly meeting that is all about my and your favorite opensource server operating system...
<smoser> Welcome to the Halloween Edition of the Ubuntu Server Team meeting!
<smoser> I'll be your emcee today.
 * smoser waits for applause to settle.
<smoser> without further delay lets get started!
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from the previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from the previous meeting
<smoser> * dpb1 to follow up on LP: #1686437
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686437 in simplestreams (Ubuntu Zesty) "glance sync: need keystone v3 auth support" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686437
<smoser> dpb1 status there ?
<smoser> i assume it was sru related?
 * smoser just uploaded some follow-on fixes to bionic that were provided by thedac. LP: #1719879, 1728982
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1728982 in simplestreams "openstack mirror with keystone v3 always imports new images" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1728982
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1719879 in simplestreams "swift client needs to use v1 auth prior to ocata" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1719879
<smoser> oh well, seems dpb1 is not available. i'll just re-action him on that.
<dpb1> smoser: yes, I have an update, but please carry
<smoser> #ACTION dpb1 to follow up on LP: #1686437
<meetingology> ACTION: dpb1 to follow up on LP: #1686437
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686437 in simplestreams (Ubuntu Zesty) "glance sync: need keystone v3 auth support" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686437
<smoser> moving on.
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Development
<smoser> i am givin the distinct honor of hosting the first meeting while the archive is open for bionic!
<smoser> horay!
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseSchedule
<nacc> autosync was turned on today, i believe too
<smoser> We are squarely in the realm of get stuff done.
<smoser> feature definition freeze is Nov 30th.
<smoser> #link https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/daily-ubuntu-server
<smoser> anyone have comments on that ?
<smoser> #link #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> double link
<smoser> hm.. is that 404 ?
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> smoser: probably needs to be created still
<smoser> ah. bb, yeah.
<smoser> ok. moving on.
<blackboxsw> double link just makes it more important :)
<smoser> let smove on
<smoser> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
<slashd> Business as usual, everything is under control on our side --> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25859641/
<slashd> smoser, one thing about the simplestream bug
<slashd> we talked about it quickly while you were at the ubuntu rally
<smoser> slashd: yeah? the fixes i just took from thedac were important.
<slashd> so what is the status of 1686437  ? need us to take the SRu on this ?
<slashd> wasn't sure who own this bug
<slashd> for X and Z
<smoser> slashd: we can chat afte rthe meeting.
<slashd> smoser, sound good
<smoser> slashd: shall i flood the channel with links to rls-mgr tracking pages ?
 * smoser goes for it. if i'm not pasting information, what kind of host am I?
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> and lets move on i geuss.
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smoser> this is your chance to pepper the kernel team with questions or flame or troll them..
<smoser> comon... *someone* has something here.
<smoser> ok then
 * smoser was hoping for *something*
<smoser> bug 1726818
<ubottu> bug 1726818 in linux (Ubuntu) "vagrant artful64 box filesystem too small" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1726818
<smoser> to my knowledge that hadn't got any kernel team eyes. i'll just mention it so that this isnt completely empty.
<smoser> next
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<smoser> surely someone in this lively bunch will have some topics for discussion
<smoser> if you couldnt be bothered to troll the kernel team take this chance to troll nacc
<smoser> surely something is wrong with ubuntu-git
<nacc> smoser: you can't remember the name ever?
<blackboxsw> haha, working great so far!
<smoser> perhaps you'd like to suggest that it woudl be more efficient if he ported it to bit keeper
<nacc> i broke the edge snap yesterday, fix pushed just now, should be available shortly (only affected build-source)
<nacc> we had a productive git-ubuntu roadmap discussion this AM, expect to see some ML discussions on that later
<nacc> and some blogging, i suppose :)
<smoser> if not bitkeeper, then maybe rationall clearcase ? or CMVC ?
<nacc> things i don't miss?
<smoser> ok... ok... everyone, settle down.
<smoser> remember we're  supposed to act civilized.
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<blackboxsw> someone needs to take the coffee away from smoser
<smoser> this concludes this weeks wild adventure.
<smoser> tune in next week, same time same channel
<smoser> your emcee will be none other than rbasak.
<smoser> #info Next meeting Tuesday, 2017-11-07 at 1600 UTC, chair will be rbasak
<smoser> thank you all
<smoser> good day
<rbasak> Thanks smoser!
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 31 16:23:42 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-10-31-16.02.moin.txt
<blackboxsw> thx smoser \o
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-02
 * cyphermox waves
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  2 15:02:02 2017 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<gaughen> o\
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<cyphermox> tribaal slangasek xnox doko sil2100 bdmurray rbalint cyphermox infinity Odd_Bloke mwhudson philroche rcj tdaitx fginther
<cyphermox> go go go ;)
<gaughen> Tribaal, you won!
<doko> ohh, did we move the meeting ?
<Tribaal> * Fixed up my mess with a particular build for a partner. Now fixed \o/
<cyphermox> doko: I think we all collectively suck at timezonez.
<xnox> doko, US vs EU change of time is off by two weeks or so.
<Tribaal> * Reviews
<gaughen> doko, no, we're in that window of time changes
<Tribaal> (done)
<Tribaal> Boring but that's life
<Tribaal> xnox:
<xnox> * working on boost1.65 transition, main is done
<xnox> * working on ocaml transition, should transition when autpkgtest is ready
<xnox> * worked on NTP settings in a cloud image
<xnox> * prepared xenial ubiquity SRUs for WPA Enterprise support
<xnox> * systemd SRUs validated and reliease
<xnox> * Updating upstream systemd merge proposals
<xnox> * Updating debian ntp/networkd patch proposal
<xnox> * Fixing gcc7.1/boost1.65 build failures with fixes forwarded to debian
<xnox> * systemd merged, but failing testing.
<xnox> ..
<bdmurray> doko: your turn
<doko> still writing summary ...
<bdmurray> no sil2100
<bdmurray> I'll go to give doko time
<bdmurray> override of increased rate of crashes for 0 day SRUs
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bugs 1477455, 1717360, 1721882 for Z and X
<bdmurray> updated daisy, errors code for bionic and release of artful
<gaughen> thanks bdmurray
<ubottu> bug 1477455 in update-manager (Ubuntu Artful) "Incorrect instructions leave automatic updates blocked when /boot is full" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1477455
<ubottu> bug 1721882 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Artful) "Generic instructions for dealing with full partitions don't help much" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1721882
<ubottu> bug 1717360 in update-manager (Ubuntu Trusty) "test_update_origin.py test failure" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1717360
<bdmurray> submitted RT re staging, production update of the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> tested staging, production update of the Error Tracker (good)
<bdmurray> review of arm64 good retraces on the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> setup rls-bb- reports
<bdmurray> setup Error Tracker env with cassandra 3.10 for testing
<bdmurray> special SRU review of horizon for coreycb
<bdmurray> â done
<rbalint> * short week
<rbalint> * minor livecd-rootfs updates
<rbalint> * GCE new upstream
<bdmurray> doko: ready yet?
<rbalint> * things i can't report here
<rbalint> (done)
<doko> - archive opening, initial transitions icu, boost, ...
<doko> - sync five year libcdio from experimental, package libcdio-paranoia
<doko> - archive admin work for bionic
<doko> - openjdk-8 upload, based on tiago's work
<doko> - gcc-8, gcc-8-cross updated
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox> - jenkins merging/code testing for xenial minimized c-i.u.c images
<cyphermox> - debugging minimized images boot/speed
<cyphermox> - shim signature cat-herding, review
<cyphermox> - grub2 merge for 2.02
<cyphermox> - netplan UX user stories planning
<cyphermox> - netplan autopkgtests on xenial & zesty
<cyphermox> - preparing netplan doc / website (RT)
<cyphermox> - shim re-testing after MS signature
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> infinity?
<cyphermox> guess he might not be on this timezone
<philroche> - Paternity leave + bank holiday and catching up on my return
<philroche> (done)
<rcj> * Vacation day
<rcj> * Automated promotion rework complete and in testing
<rcj> * build failure analysis / build system vanguard work
<rcj> (done)
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<cyphermox> anybody got OB?
<cyphermox> woops
<cyphermox> okay, tdaitx and fginther :)
<cyphermox> I got confused by newlines
<tdaitx> [HIGHLIGHT] OpenJDK 8u151 has been released to Xenial, Zesty, and Artful with the latest security fixes and an armhf hotspot (aarch32).
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8 packaged, tested & uploaded to the security team
<tdaitx> - redid packaging to include CVEs after Oracle restored our access
<tdaitx> * Backporting 8u151 security patches to OpenJDK 7 (ongoing)
<tdaitx> * Tested open kernel/openjdk bug, still an issue (LP: #1699772 and LP:#1700270)
<tdaitx> * Following errors.ubuntu.com for regressions on OpenJDK 8 update
<tdaitx> - current reports are about existing issue, no regressions so far
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1699772 in linux (Ubuntu) "linux-image-4.13.0-12-generic, linux-image-4.10.0-24-generic, linux-image-4.8.0-56-generic, linux-image-4.4.0-81-generic, linux-image-3.13.0-121-generic | Regression: many user-space apps crashing" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1699772
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - today is a holiday, was planning to work but my family is meeting (unplanned) and I decided to join them, will be taking the day off and might be able to work a bit later in the afternoon/evening.
<tdaitx> - bad config in IRC proxy, fixing it to get history working properly
<tdaitx> (done)
<fginther> * Created a proposal for new world publication of certain old world built images.
<fginther> * Documentation updates for an automated publication library.
<fginther> * Created document for the CPC development environment (i.e. need an openstack cloud, etc.).
<fginther> * Built and tested GCE images for gce-compute-image-packages 20171019 update.
<fginther> * Assisting support team with some Oracle cloud questions and setup.
<fginther> (done)
<cyphermox> great
<cyphermox> sorry tdaitx and fginther :)
<cyphermox> alright, any OB for real this time?
<bdmurray> Nope
<cyphermox> ok, going once
<cyphermox> going twice
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  2 15:12:28 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-02-15.02.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks all
<tdaitx> gaughen, hold on that highlight, I rechecked now and the emails I got are from the debian sync in bionic, that update should be comming soon, so let's leave it for next week
<gaughen> k tdaitx
<sil2100> o/ (sorry for being late, timezone went out of sync)
<cyphermox> sil2100: don't worry about it
<elopio> ahoneybun: a reminder, we meet in 30 minutes. There is still time to add items to the agenda, replying to the topic on the hub.
<ahoneybun> thanks elopio
<ahoneybun> wait was I kicked out of the room for the meeting?
<elopio> ahoneybun: this room?
<ahoneybun> ahh
<elopio> flexiondotorg marcoceppi jose wxl elacheche ahoneybun let
<elopio> 's start. Who's here?
<ahoneybun> o/
<elopio> ahoneybun: flexiondotorg added a few topics on the agenda, so let's wait for him a little. Maybe he's having problems.
<wxl> i'm here but give me a bit. work fires need to be put out
<elopio> wxl: we haven't started. How much time do you need?
<wxl> ok i'm here now for real elopio
<wxl> sorry about that
<elopio> wxl ahoneybun: 5 more minutes, or start  now?
<wxl> i'm ready
<elopio> ahoneybun: ?
<elopio> meetingology: help
<meetingology> elopio: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin. You may also want to use the 'list' command to list all available plugins and commands.
<ahoneybun> I'm good sorry at work so kinda all over the place
<elopio> meetingology: list
<meetingology> elopio: Admin, Channel, Config, MeetBot, Misc, NickAuth, NickCapture, Owner, and User
<elopio> #startmeeting  Community Council meeting: 20171102
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  2 17:30:12 2017 UTC.  The chair is elopio. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171102 | Current topic:
<elopio> okay, this seems easy. The agenda for today was prepared in https://community.ubuntu.com/t/call-for-topics-community-council-meeting-20171102/1018
 * elopio sent a long message: elopio_2017-11-02_17:31:20.txt <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/WtYCAsweRSVorQrqZDdrlybx>
<elopio> we might not be able to cover some topics, because they were proposed by Martin. But let's see what we can do.
<elopio> #subtopic LoCo Council election.
<elopio> this is the most urgent thing to do. We now have the candidates ready for the election, but I have never used that election software. I don't know how to send an email to all the voting members
<wxl> i don't, either
<elopio> anybody has ideas of what to do here?
<wxl> i know you reached out to marcoceppi (right?) on community
<wxl> i also pinged popey a while back but never heard anything
<wxl> without that information we're at a loss
<wxl> we could bug sabdfl ? :/
<elopio> yes, no reply. I will send another ping to Marco. I guess worst case scenario I can bother Daniel Holbach to teach me how to do it, and then document it.
<wxl> i do know we use this: http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/
<wxl> i'm not sure if we offer our own server though...
<wxl> do you have the email from the cc election by chance?
<elopio> I'm not sure sabdfl would know the right buttons to touch. But well, asking him is an option too.
<wxl> oh wait
<wxl> maybe this isn't so difficult
<wxl> look at http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/civs_create.html
<elopio> I do have the email. It comes from cornell.edu, so I'm guessing we use their server. We can guess that part, but how to send the email to everybody?
<wxl> so it would be private
<wxl> i'm sure we could use launchpad to send the mail
<elopio> wxl: can you take an action to experiment with the software to learn how to use it, and I will keep pinging people until we find somebody to make sure we are not making it wrong?
<wxl> ok
<wxl> i think i can have this figured out in a few mins tho
<elopio> #action wxl learn how to set up the LoCo council election poll
<meetingology> ACTION: wxl learn how to set up the LoCo council election poll
<elopio> #action elopio keep pinging people who have previously done an election in the ubuntu community
<meetingology> ACTION: elopio keep pinging people who have previously done an election in the ubuntu community
<wxl> actually i got it
<flexiondotorg> Hello
<wxl> i just need a script to grab all of the ubuntu members emails and put them in a file
<wxl> which is fairly trivial with the python API
<wxl> i've fiddled with it here and there for a couple things so shouldn't be too difficult
<wxl> HOWEVER if you can find someone who knows something, i'd really appreciate it. there are lots of other options that i'm not sure how we might or might not use
<wxl> so we're good there. let's move on :)
<flexiondotorg> Appologies for being late.
<elopio> yes, because not all people have their emails public in launchpad. I'm guessing we talk to the launchpad admins to get the list. I will ping around
<elopio> let's try to get this ready for tomorrow wxl
<wxl> no worries, flexiondotorg. there's at least two of us running around at work, too
<elopio> flexiondotorg: ready to join us?
<wxl> elopio: i think as members of the cc we may have more access than others
<wxl> yes that's true
<wxl> we own ubuntu members https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers
<elopio> you might be right. Anyway, we can check and ask after the meeting. Let's continue with this.
<elopio> #subtopic Report on the first Ubuntu Hour on Ubuntu on air
<elopio> so, the idea here was to have a hangout with loco members from different places, to start promoting the frequent meetings again.
<flexiondotorg> elopio: What are your expected outcomes of meeting with the LoCos?
<elopio> the good thing was that more people than I expected attented the call. The bad thing was that the call hangout has a limit of 10 people, so a few were left out.
<elopio> we gathered some ideas, like using big blue button, and splitting the meeting.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: for now, I'm waiting to have an officially elected LoCo council before defining any real plans.
<wxl> i was wowed by the activity
<elopio> my only expected outcome is to open more options to talk with people from the community. I hope that more regions will start meeting in person, like what we are starting to do in Costa Rica. But we are mostly experimenting, and having fun.
<wxl> the loco is definitely not dead
<elopio> wxl: what are your thoughts about the ubuntu hour?
<wxl> i think it was definitely a success
<wxl> i'd like to see that continued
<elopio> nice :) I think we have many things to improve, but I'm happy making tweaks as we go.
<elopio> now, my idea was to have it twice a month, maybe on the second thursday and last friday of each month, so it's not on the same week as our meetings.
<elopio> but, I think that to make it sustainable, the thursday meeting should be at an european friendly timezone, organized by an european.
<elopio> wxl: would you like to take care of the friday meeting with me each month?
<wxl> yes
<elopio> \o/
<popey> wxl: sorry, missed your ping, what's up?
<elopio> #action elopio and wxl will organize an ubuntu hour the fourth friday of each month.
<meetingology> ACTION: elopio and wxl will organize an ubuntu hour the fourth friday of each month.
<elopio> popey: have you ever organized an election? We need help with a few details for the LoCo council one.
<wxl> popey: it was about doing the poll for the loco council, but we can talk after the meeting if you're familiar with the process
<popey> I haven't
<popey> dholbach did it usually
<wxl> that's why he never replied to me XD
<elopio> okay. Thanks popey . We have a plan, and will contact him if we can't solve it without him.
<elopio> about the loco hour on the second week of the month, we will have to see if elacheche, marcoceppi, flexiondotorg or somebody else steps up to organize it.
<elopio> I can attend it and help with no problem, but I don't think I should organize it too.
<elopio> anybody, any questions about this topic, or should we move on with the next?
<elopio> #subtopic Bootstrap new, official, Ubuntu flavours
<flexiondotorg> So, the idea is simple.
<flexiondotorg> Identify people who are involved in a desktop environment or application that would make a great official flavour.
<flexiondotorg> Some examples are Cinnamon, Unity 7 (underway), Kodi, Liri...
<flexiondotorg> The reason for doing this is:
<flexiondotorg> Attract new developers and members to Ubuntu.
<flexiondotorg> New flavours drive the news cycle.
<flexiondotorg> Create documentation to help others create official flavours.
<flexiondotorg> What do you think?
<elopio> I like it. And even if we don't find right away enough people to start those flavours, the exploratory work would be useful to start the community, and maybe in a few months there will be enough people on each one.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: do you think we can give some of these tasks to the young people participating in the code-in? I don't know, maybe one of them can create an iso with cinnamon preinstalled.
<flexiondotorg> So, the action for the CC is to discover the people to reach out to and invite them to work on a flavour.
<wxl> i think the Unity one is a good idea
<flexiondotorg> elopio: I think this is not suitable for GCI
<wxl> there's certainly a segment of people that really liked it for some reason
<flexiondotorg> Because it is not currently documented.
<flexiondotorg> But I have quite a bit of the process in my head.
<flexiondotorg> And I'm sure fossfreedom will be good to involve in drafting some docs.
<elopio> ok
<flexiondotorg> I've offered to assist the Unity 7 preservation team.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: so, would you like to take the action item of organizing this work? Feel free to send some of the load to us, but I think you are the right person to split the tasks :)
<flexiondotorg> I will take on this task :-)
<flexiondotorg> If I need help tracking people down or sending emails etc. I'll request help.
<elopio> #action flexiondotorg will organize the work to bootstrap new flavours
<meetingology> ACTION: flexiondotorg will organize the work to bootstrap new flavours
<wxl> since Unity is already in the works that could showcase the larger project, especially if you have work to show for it
<elopio> ok, good good. I think we are ready for the next topic.
<elopio> #subtopic Ubuntu guerrilla marketing campaign
<flexiondotorg> So, this idea is to create some engaging "marketing" material that can be easily translated.
<wxl> for locos, assumedly
<flexiondotorg> Then empower the LoCos to run a guerrilla marketing Campaign for Ubuntu.
<flexiondotorg> Over a specific period of time.
<elopio> I love this, because it will help with all our other goals. More noise first, to find the right people to get started working on the hard problems in the following months
<flexiondotorg> Encourage them to be creative in how they spread to word about Ubuntu.
<flexiondotorg> Ideally outside out usual bubble.
<elopio> I don't know a lot of people who can help, but I think eylul from ubuntu studio might give us a hand.
<flexiondotorg> So, I think we need help with the creative of the art assets to start with.
<flexiondotorg> We also need to help define the "adverts".
<flexiondotorg> They should be fun and interesting to attract peoples attention.
<elopio> maybe we can make the ubuntu hours this month about that. Ways to spread the word.
<flexiondotorg> Once we have the art. We can reach out to locos for translations.
<flexiondotorg> Then kick off the campaign.
<elopio> and we can all blog about something, not very creative but we can ask for help to make better products.
<flexiondotorg> Yeah, we can use new media and blogs etc.
<elopio> we have one awesome flier for the ubuntu hours thanks to Sylvia Ritter. Maybe she can help us with other pieces too.
<flexiondotorg> But I'm also thinking putting up advets in Libraries, schools, shops, pubs, etc.
<flexiondotorg> I don't want to prescibe where to place ads.
<elopio> :o that would be cool. We could use some of the community funds to finance the prints, right?
<flexiondotorg> I'd much rather the LoCos get creative, Have fun. And share their ideas so others can repeat.
<flexiondotorg> I'll find out if community funds can be used.
<flexiondotorg> Would be great.
<elopio> ok, I like it, but I'm not sure what's the next real step.
<flexiondotorg> wxl Do you think this is worth pursuing?
<wxl> absolutely
<flexiondotorg> If so, I guess the CC action is find artists to help create freely reusable assets.
<elopio> I can print and paste in costa rica, inviting people to join the ubuntu hour meeting on the 23rd
<flexiondotorg> So, I think this is a long play.
<elopio> #action everybody from the CC to find artists to help create freely reusable assets.
<meetingology> ACTION: everybody from the CC to find artists to help create freely reusable assets.
<flexiondotorg> I imagine it will take some weeks to get a collection of high quality "adverts".
<flexiondotorg> The same again to get translations.
<ahoneybun> what kind of art do we need?
<ahoneybun> maybe make a post on the site?
<flexiondotorg> And then a time window to run the campaign will need to be set and communicated.
<flexiondotorg> ahoneybun: I have some cheeky ideas.
<ahoneybun> lol
<flexiondotorg> A guitar amplfier with the volume at 11.
<elopio> ð
<flexiondotorg> Tagline. Stuck on Windows 10 or macOS X? Ubuntu goes to 11.
<flexiondotorg> That sort of thing.
<ahoneybun> that's pretty good
<wxl> YES
<flexiondotorg> Fun. Bit cheeky. Interesting.
<elopio> flexiondotorg: ok, please start a topic on the hub, and we invite artists to join us there.
<flexiondotorg> OK, will do.
<flexiondotorg> Perhaps David Revoy would help.
<elopio> #action flexiondotorg will start a topic on the hub for guerrilla marketing
<meetingology> ACTION: flexiondotorg will start a topic on the hub for guerrilla marketing
<flexiondotorg> And Dave Hingley (contributor to Ubuntu Podcast competition) might to.
<flexiondotorg> OK, Great.
<flexiondotorg> Nathan Haines may have contacts too.
<elopio> thank you, sounds like it will be awesome
<flexiondotorg> We can try :-)
<elopio> #subtopic Engage the Documentation Team and other stakeholders on the Future Of The Wiki
<flexiondotorg> popey do you have thoughts about that? ^
<elopio> I think elacheche is the one who knows more about the wiki, right? Anybody else?
<wxl> I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING
<wxl> OOPS
<popey> I do!
<flexiondotorg> My feelings are that the wiki in it's current state is not great.
<popey> I would like to see a discussion about what we do with the wiki on the hub
<elopio> :) sounds like a great step in the right direction.
<popey> I don't think there's a simple solution. But I welcome the discussion.
<popey> But first I think the problem needs to be clearly articulated
<popey> Before anyone goes off and said "Lets setup mediawiki" or "Lets delete the wiki" or any other rash suggestions :D
<elopio> popey: would you like to start that topic with the right words?
<popey> I would be delighted to.
<elopio> on our side, we can start pinging people from docs and wiki to participate on the topic.
<wxl> oooh making action items for non-council members. i like it :)
<popey> I will add a task to do it tomorrow
<popey> hahah
<flexiondotorg> My issue is that a lot of content is out of date and only Ubuntu Members can edit the wifi by default.
<flexiondotorg> So not enough people to maintain/update content.
<elopio> #action popey will start a topic on the hub about what to do with the wiki
<meetingology> ACTION: popey will start a topic on the hub about what to do with the wiki
<elopio> I think the content that's currently on the wiki would be more sustainable as topics on the hub, questions on askubuntu and tutorials in tutorials.ubuntu.com
<elopio> but maybe there's room for the wiki, for some cases. I guess we will see after we have that discussion on the hub
<flexiondotorg> Yes, I think we need a wiki.
<flexiondotorg> But it's scope should be defined.
<elopio> #action somebody from the CC to get in touch with the wiki stakeholders.
<meetingology> ACTION: somebody from the CC to get in touch with the wiki stakeholders.
<elopio> that might be elacheche, but pending to see if he agrees.
<flexiondotorg> Agree ^
<elopio> cool. Last topic.
<elopio> #subtopic Google code-in
<elopio> I think this should be our top priority for this month, after we finish the loco council election.
<elopio> we have one month to find mentors, and get them to fill tasks.
<popey> Yes!
<popey> I agree!
<elopio> popey is organizing this, so basically, just help popey in whatever he needs.
<elopio> I think everybody from the CC should be a mentor too. And I think, many of the tasks we need to do could be boosted by this event.
<flexiondotorg> Could the CC reach out to developers to encourage them to participate?
<elopio> for example, I will add one for: organize an Ubuntu Hour in your region.
<elopio> that
<elopio> 's a valid task, right popey?
<popey> Hm, tricky
<popey> Bear in mind these are 13-17 year olds
<popey> might be tricky for some
<flexiondotorg> Sadly, I need to drop off.
<flexiondotorg> Catch you next time.
<popey> I would love for all the cc to be mentors
<elopio> thanks for coming flexiondotorg !
<popey> it would set an excellent example
<elopio> ok, so
<wxl> i intend to be
<elopio> #action elopio will convince all the CC to be mentors.
<meetingology> ACTION: elopio will convince all the CC to be mentors.
<elopio> #action everybody from the CC will help to find mentors
<meetingology> ACTION: everybody from the CC will help to find mentors
<popey> Could all the CC please reply to the thread on the hub to volunteer as mentors?
<popey> https://community.ubuntu.com/t/google-code-in-next-steps-week-44/1218
<wxl> yes
<elopio> popey: ubuntu hour on their school? But well, we can discuss about the specific tasks later.
<popey> ya
<elopio> ok, popey, something else you might need from us for the code-in?
<popey> Other than what's called for in that thread, no.
<elopio> cool. So there are no more items in the agenda for this meeting.
<elopio> I will add one more action item
<elopio> #action elopio to ping marcoceppi and jose to see why are they not attending these meetings.
<meetingology> ACTION: elopio to ping marcoceppi and jose to see why are they not attending these meetings.
<elopio> wxl: ahoneybun any other topic you would like to discuss?
<wxl> not currently nope
<wxl> i'm hacking away at the lp api as we speak so should have that poll done in a just a bit
<elopio> thank you :)
<elopio> I'll copy Martin's style, and finish this meeting in 5...
<elopio> 4...
<elopio> 3...
<elopio> 2...
<elopio> 1...
<elopio> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  2 18:34:52 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-02-17.30.moin.txt
<elopio> thank you! I'll prepare the summary in the next days.
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-10-29
<fsociety10> hello
<fsociety10> I need help
<wxl> fsociety10: this is not a help channel. what do you need help with?
<fsociety10> sorry my wifi is getting disconnected
<wxl> fsociety10: this is not a help channel. what do you need help with?
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-10-30
<cpaelzer> hiho
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: doko: is this meeting today lost in daylight savin madness?
<cpaelzer> or do I have an old un-updated entry in my calendar?
<cyphermox> possibly
<cyphermox> do we need to have a meeting today?
<cpaelzer> well it was mostly about the queue management, as far as I have seen there were only updates to old ones - but I could easily miss some
<cpaelzer> did you see any we need to talk about?
<doko> hi
<doko> I assume so
<doko> yeah, I don't think there's anything new. security team catching up with security reviews
<cpaelzer> ok, well then that means we can recover some time for all the other work
<cpaelzer> cu next week, same place same time
<cpaelzer> o/
<doko> yep, ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-01
<juliank> \o
<tdaitx> o/
<philroche> \o
<xnox> o/
 * vorlon waves
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  1 15:05:15 2018 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning Round
<vorlon> $ echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther cshep tobijk)
<vorlon> tobijk juliank sil2100 xnox doko bdmurray fginther mwhudson cyphermox rbalint philroche rcj Odd_Bloke infinity tdaitx vorlon cshep
<philroche> tobikoch/tobijk is OoO
<juliank> * python-apt update for disco
<juliank> * verified regressions in bionic
<juliank> * wondering about weird bug 1644643
<ubottu> bug 1644643 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt failed to run due to link time reference error" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1644643
<juliank> * assisted in fixing python symlink check in ubuntu-release-upgrader (LP: #1799839)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799839 in friendly-recovery (Ubuntu) "not possible to use "Repair broken packages"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799839
<juliank> * analyising a problem with apt regarding downloads failing sometimes for unknown errors
<juliank> * merge proposal: minimize-manual livecd-rootfs for bionic (LP: #1800610)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1800610 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] minimize number of manually installed packages" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1800610
<juliank> * further work on socket-activated PackageKit/aptdaemon debconf frontend
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> sil2100 is not in here
<juliank> xnox:
<xnox> * Discussing s390x installer plans for this cycle
<xnox> * Verified / is now released
<xnox> bug #1798367
<xnox> bug #1777600
<xnox> bug #1794308
<xnox> * Preparing fixup upload of boost/mongo
<ubottu> bug 1798367 in nodejs (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] nodejs should use openssl1.0 in testing as well" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798367
<ubottu> bug 1777600 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "chzdev can't find modprobe" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1777600
<ubottu> bug 1794308 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "VM devices rdr, pun and prt are not activated after restart" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1794308
<xnox> * Blocked / awaiting review:
<xnox> ubuntu-keyring sru still not accepted https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-keyring/+bug/1798073
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1798073 in ubuntu-keyring (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] Provide 2018 archive signing key on stable releases" [Undecided,In progress]
<xnox> dual-signing DD is not merged https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/ubuntu-archive-publishing/dual-sign-2018/+merge/356919
<xnox> systemd stuck in bionic unapproved
<xnox> ð
<cyphermox> xnox: doesn't show
<xnox> =(
<juliank> xnox: christmas tree?
<xnox> yeap
<vorlon> doko:
<infinity> (doko) Vell, vhat I have done iz to upload ze toolchain und make vis starting ze pyson transition.
<vorlon> (is it a national holiday where he is?)
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> reported apport bug re -dbg and -dbgsym packages LP: #1800177
<bdmurray> merged my fix for the above apport bug and updated Launchpad retracers
<bdmurray> worked with webops to get extra core files in swift requeued
<bdmurray> modified errors graph legend to not include End of Life releases
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1800177 in Apport "apport-retrace fails to find -dbgsym packages for a package which stopped producing -dbg packages" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1800177
<bdmurray> addeded support for disco to errors and daisy code bases
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding updated of production version of both
<bdmurray> setup rls-dd reports
<bdmurray> tested debconf dialog bug LP: #1798656
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1798656 in debconf (Ubuntu) "gtk3 frontend gives no widget for answering a boolean prompt" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798656
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for do-release-upgrade and phased-updates (LP: #1799710)
<bdmurray> uploaded improved _pythonSymlinkCheck for ubuntu-release-upgrader (LP: #1799839)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799710 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "18.04->18.10: update-manager don't show upgrade page" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799710
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799839 in friendly-recovery (Ubuntu) "not possible to use "Repair broken packages"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799839
<bdmurray> reported and uploaded fixes for LP: #1800945 (disco and debootstrap)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1800945 in debootstrap (Ubuntu Cosmic) "Add Ubuntu disco as as supported release" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1800945
<bdmurray> SRU verification of secureboot-db (LP: #1776996)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1776996 in secureboot-db (Ubuntu Bionic) "secureboot-db out of date, missing revocations from Aug 2016" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1776996
<bdmurray> wrote a job to find new packages in main w/o subscribers
<bdmurray> â done
<vorlon> fginther:
<doko> sorry ...
<fginther> doko, go ahead
<doko> python* SRU's for bionic and cosmic
<doko> toolchain updates for disco
<doko> python3 transition for disco (3.7)
<doko> having fun :-/
<doko> (not yet done)
<infinity> Your emoticon disagrees with your statement.  I'm not sure which to believe.
<doko> looking at -med and -sciencing packaging makes me sad
<vorlon> doko: transition not done, but is your status report?
<doko> yes
<vorlon> fginther:
<fginther> Fixed issue with trusty maas builds
<fginther> Some minor cosmic -> disco transition work
<fginther> Finished work to enable a ssh user redirect feature for a partner
<fginther> done
<cyphermox> - SRU verifications for netplan.io bionic
<cyphermox> - SRU verifications for shim in xenial
<cyphermox> - debugging DHCPv6 with m.deslaur
<cyphermox> - debugging ppp vpn for Will (LP: #1778946)
<cyphermox> - planning for shim future work; Edk2 integration, shim 16 release, etc.
<cyphermox> - merged IPv6 privext for netplan
<cyphermox> - more small improvements to netplan's error reporting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1778946 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "No dns resolution after closing a vpn/pptp connection" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1778946
<cyphermox> ð¶
<vorlon> rbalint:
<vorlon> cyphermox: where can I understand edk2 integration vs shim?
<bdmurray> I thought rbalint was out
<cyphermox> vorlon: https://github.com/rhboot/shim/issues/151
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> philroche:
<vorlon> cyphermox: thanks
<philroche> * Monday bank holiday
<philroche> * Cloud image customisations
<philroche> (done)
<rcj> rcj:
<rcj> * some days the things I do are so secret not even I know what I'm doing
<rcj> * cloud image work to open disco
<vorlon> your northbridge doesn't know what your southbridge is doing?
<rcj> * cloud image vanguarding and mentoring
<rcj> (done)
<vorlon> Odd_Bloke is out
<vorlon> infinity:
<infinity>  * Archive opening, yay!
<infinity>  * Launchpad, cdimage, archive.internal, etc mangling for opening.
<infinity>  * Copy all the things!
<infinity>  * Delete some of the things!
<infinity>  * New chroots!
<infinity>  * Merges!
<infinity>  * Helping with opening python transition debugging.
<infinity>  * Got all the Ubuntu images (except for live-server, hrm) building.
<infinity> (done)
<tdaitx> Short week: out sick Thursday and Friday, mostly recovered now
<tdaitx> Openjdk security update:
<tdaitx> * regression in openjdk-8 and openjdk-10 caused by missing patch
<tdaitx>   - Oracle didn't include it in the security update for partners even though it was included in the 11.0.1 and 8u191 security updates
<tdaitx>   - related to debian bug 911925 and LP: #1800792
<ubottu> Debian bug 911925 in openjdk-8-jdk "openjdk-8-jdk: Maven surefire crashes after update to 8u181-b13-2" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/911925
<tdaitx>   - applied missing patch to openjdk-10, under test
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1800792 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "Update to 8u181-b13-1ubuntu0.18.04.1 breaks Maven builds" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1800792
<tdaitx>   - updated openjdk-8 to 8u191, under test
<tdaitx> * investigated jtreg's agentvm failure in Cosmic
<tdaitx>   - caused by java.nio.ByteBuffer.flip
<gaughen> Lukasz is bank holidaying fyi
<tdaitx>   - bionic was not affected because jtreg was never rebuild with openjdk-9 or openjdk-10
<tdaitx>   - checking if we can build it differently or need to patch the affected code
<tdaitx> * applied patch to fix openjdk-8 fonts (debian bug #911847)
<ubottu> Debian bug 911847 in src:openjdk-8 "openjdk-8: Backport fix to JDK-8132985: crash in freetypescaler due to double free" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/911847
<tdaitx> (done)
<vorlon>  * roadmap sprint last week
<vorlon>  * was off yesterday
<vorlon>  * code reviews for ubuntu-core and armhf classic image builds
<vorlon>  * kernel SRU processing
<vorlon>  * discussions around s390x installers
<vorlon> (done)
<vorlon> platonical:
<platonical> * livecd-rootfs now includes grub-efi packages
<platonical> * cloud partner work
<platonical> done
<platonical> did you see it this time?
<rcj> platonical: o/
<vorlon> questions on status?
<vorlon> platonical: I see your messages, if that's what you mean
<cyphermox> vorlon: no code review for netplan WPA ?
<platonical> vorlon, it is, thanks!
<vorlon> cyphermox: was off yesterday; in my queue for today
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<vorlon> maybe nothing at this point in the cycle, but?
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> vorlon, cyphermox: There've been some updates regarding the secureboot-db bug 1800750
<ubottu> bug 1800750 in secureboot-db (Ubuntu) "Error message during upgrade: "Error writing key update: Permission denied"" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1800750
<cyphermox> yup
<vorlon> bdmurray: as long as the package install isn't failing, that's a low priority
<bdmurray> vorlon: And it seems like it isn't failing correct?
<vorlon> yes
<bdmurray> Okay
<bdmurray> Then bug 1794292 has a couple of updates
<ubottu> bug 1794292 in plymouth (Ubuntu Cosmic) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in /sbin/plymouthd:11 in ply_renderer_set_handler_for_input_source -> ply_keyboard_stop_watching_for_renderer_input -> ply_keyboard_stop_watching_for_input -> ply_device_manager_deactivate_keyboards -> on_deactivate" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1794292
<cyphermox> yup
<cyphermox> now we know it's deactivation at boottime
<vorlon> so is that bug in the prioritized queue or so?
<cyphermox> there is a card
<bdmurray> It might be assigned too
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> then I assume we don't need to discuss it further
<gaughen> vorlon, bdmurray cyphermox there is a card in the done column
<vorlon> oops
<bdmurray> well that seems like the wrong place
<vorlon> someone want to undo the card then?
<bdmurray> yeah some did undo the card
<gaughen> it is undone
<cyphermox> undone done
<gaughen> and now it's back to inprogress with cyphermox on it
<cyphermox> arewe done?
<vorlon> ok, any other bugs?
<bdmurray> Is done undone like rare?
<bdmurray> Nope
<vorlon> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<vorlon> anything else?
<tribaal> I like disco's name better than xnox's troll, for the record :D
<doko> yes
<bdmurray> https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/apport/lp-disco-retracers/+merge/358034
<cyphermox> I'm off monday.
<doko> please help with the python3.7 transition
<bdmurray> I could use a merge for that
<vorlon> doko: ack
<bdmurray> of that?
<doko> look at apport autopkg test failures, as well as autopkg ?
<doko> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html  -> look at build failures, fix them
<vorlon> bdmurray: done
<doko> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html -> fix those
<doko> still waiting on the backlog of autopkg tests
<juliank> doko: both links are the same
<doko> it's crazy, the armhf/arm64 buildds block starting the autopkg tests, and then the amd64/i386 autopkg testers are delaying things
<xnox> juliank, the comment is not ;-)
<xnox> _after_ the url
<doko> juliank: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/python3.6-7.html
<juliank> ack
<doko> and after that, should we do the same with perl for the opening, or just open?  and somebody asked for protobuf and poppler transitions first
<vorlon> seems like a discussion to take back over to #ubuntu-release
<doko> up to now I only upload python related stuff. so every ftbfs should be python related, or one of the 1500 ftbfs not addressed last cycle ...
<vorlon> right
<doko> yeah, we can do. but that channel tends getting ignored with all the automated messages
<vorlon> sure, questions of archive opening ordering are still better discussed there
<vorlon> (and also, I have to run afk early so I'm itching to close out the meeting ;)
<doko> meh ...
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  1 15:39:36 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-01-15.05.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks, all!
 * Eickmeyer is here for the Membership Board meeting and is applying for membership, but noticed no activity.
<wxl> oh ho
<wxl> let's see if we can't round up the troops
<bashfulrobot> ping
<bashfulrobot> here
<wxl> ok that's two and i'm sure nzoueidi and tsimonq2 are lurking
 * Eickmeyer is thinking he should've said something earlier.
<wxl> should be sufficient for quorum
<teward> wxl: you sure about that?  Simon IIRC was 'away' last I checked
<Eickmeyer> I just got a response from tsimonq2 on Telegram.
<teward> (was trying to reach him about email things via irc)
<wxl> yeah ping him on telegram (*eye rolling*)
<tsimonq2> Ohai
<Eickmeyer> LOL!
<wxl> you are here right nzoueidi ?
<teward> *watches tsimonq2's chair catch aflame since he lit a fire under him*
<nzoueidi> yup
<wxl> ok
<wxl> let's get this party started
<wxl> who's chairing? NOT IT :)
<tsimonq2> *watches teward's head light on fire because I lit his coffee on fire*
<tsimonq2> wxl: NOT IT
<bashfulrobot> NOT IT
<teward> tsimonq2: joke's on you, i've been drinking tea all day >:D
<bashfulrobot> ha ha
<tsimonq2> (I'm on mobile, sooo)
<wxl> sorry you lose nzoueidi :)
<wxl> err, you win
<wxl> you GET to chair the meeting
<wxl> it's an honor
<wxl> :)
<nzoueidi> haha
<nzoueidi> I was just looking for my mug of coffee
<nzoueidi> this is not fair :')
<wxl> hahahha
<bashfulrobot> I have never chaired before - once I know how - will can can do.
<wxl> don't worry. Eickmeyer will be an easy one.
<Eickmeyer> Careful, tsimonq2 might light that coffee on fire.
 * bashfulrobot looks for coffee
<bashfulrobot> Who brought hte donuts?
<bashfulrobot> Who brought *the* donuts?
<nzoueidi> no problem, let me open some links and let's start the party :)
<wxl> bashfulrobot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<Eickmeyer> Sorry, may have nom'd all the donuts while waiting for you guys.
<wxl> ouch
 * bashfulrobot marks the page for later review
<teward> if it weren't for the fact i ain't on the board i'd offer to help chair but... *immediately whooshes away to fix an issue on Lubuntu's infra*
 * bashfulrobot thinks Eick owes donuts to all.
 * Eickmeyer gives everyone a WHOLE DONUT each.
 * bashfulrobot in the voice of the cadbury commercial "not enough..."
<tsimonq2> bashfulrobot: Soo, just run #startmeeting ;D
<wxl> nzoueidi: just follow the meetingology instructions.. #startmeeting, etc
 * Eickmeyer gives everyone a Cadburry Egg each
<bashfulrobot> common Eickmeyer How bad do you want this?
<bashfulrobot> ha
 * wxl steals all the Cadbury eggs and immediately devours them
<tsimonq2> nooo
<wxl> those are my FAVOURITES
<tsimonq2> *FAVORITES
<tsimonq2> Because being American is cool.
<wxl> no
<tsimonq2> :P
<bashfulrobot> tsimonq2: You had it right the first time
<wxl> you can keep your draconian policies to yourself
<teward> *is wondering when the meeting will actually begin because pure curiosity*
<wxl> this is a training opportunity, teward :)
<tsimonq2> bah
<tsimonq2> screw it
<tsimonq2> #startmeeting UMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  1 20:29:15 2018 UTC.  The chair is tsimonq2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | UMB Meeting | Current topic:
<tsimonq2> #topic Eickmeyer
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | UMB Meeting | Current topic: Eickmeyer
<tsimonq2> hi
<Eickmeyer> o/
<tsimonq2> Please introduce yourself
<Eickmeyer> My name is Erich Eickmeyer, I am currently the Council Chair for Ubuntu Studio, and have been contributing since March/April.
<Eickmeyer> I've been working on revitalizing the flavor, and have been the driving force behind some of the innovations in Ubuntu Studio apparent in 18.10.
<wxl> it's ONLY been that long????
<tsimonq2> I was gonna say
<bashfulrobot> A lot done for the time frame.
<tsimonq2> Any questions for Eickmeyer?
<Eickmeyer> I've been an administrator for the Ubuntu Studio Facebook and Twitter accounts as well.
<Eickmeyer> I've been doing all webpage posts on ubuntustudio.org since April.
<tsimonq2> bashfulrobot: +1
<wxl> random question with no bearing on your membership: what's the future for studio?
<bashfulrobot> Eickmeyer: How do you see yourself moving forward within the Ubuntu ecosystem? Plans? ideas? (high level)
<Eickmeyer> Right now, we're focusing on bringing Wacom tablet configuration to ubuntustudio-controls, and making ubuntustudio-installer a utility that anybody can install from any flavor to gain all of the benefits of Ubuntu Studio.
<Eickmeyer> That way, they can use thier desktop environment of choice.
<wxl> OOOOH
<nzoueidi> Eickmeyer, any loco teams around? I am wondering why you are not involved into?
<Eickmeyer> bashfulrobot: I see myself continuing the lead for Ubuntu Studio and brining it back into the spotlight of being the multimedia distro of choice.
<Eickmeyer> nzoueidi: Currently, the loco teams in my area are inactive, afaik.
<Eickmeyer> valorie would know more about that than I, however.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: If you had to suggest one improvement for Ubuntu as a whole, what would it be?
<wxl> i can confirm they are, afaik, too
<wxl> there's been some talk of bringing ubuntu pnw back but i need to revisit that topic again, so blame me
<tsimonq2> DO IT :D
<bashfulrobot> Eickmeyer: What do you see as on of the hardest things when getting involved in Ubuntu?
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Tough one. I'm not sure I have a concise answer to that, but I think figuring out a way to get packages from Debian updated easier would be nice, but I really don't know.
<tsimonq2> Cool.
<bashfulrobot> Eickmeyer: What do you see as *one* of the hardest things when getting involved in Ubuntu?
<tsimonq2> I'm ready to vote as soon as bashfulrobot's question is answered.
<bashfulrobot> tsimonq2: works for me.
<nzoueidi> me too, I need another mug of coffee
<wxl> ditto
<nzoueidi> I am looking into the bugs in your LP account, keep it up
<Eickmeyer> bashfulrobot: Probably one of the hardest things is finding a place where one's skills are best used. I have a degree in leadership, so I found a leadership opportunity with Studio once I saw the need. However, leadership spots seem hard to come by, which makes sense.
<Eickmeyer> Honestly, it ended my days of distrohopping.
<bashfulrobot> :-)
<bashfulrobot> for now. Wait until your installer is out.
<Eickmeyer> Hehe
<tsimonq2> #vote Eickmeyer Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Eickmeyer Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<wxl> ew distrohopping
<tsimonq2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tsimonq2
<bashfulrobot> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bashfulrobot
<nzoueidi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nzoueidi
<wxl> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from wxl
<tsimonq2> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Eickmeyer Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<nzoueidi> Congrats
<tsimonq2> Congrats Eickmeyer :)
<Eickmeyer> \o/
<nzoueidi> \o/
<bashfulrobot> Welcome!
<bashfulrobot> send donuts.
<Eickmeyer> Thanks guys!
<pavlushka> Congrats Eickmeyer
<tsimonq2> I'll button push when I get home if that's OK
<wxl> i'm not logged into launchpad so someone else can add him to members
<nzoueidi> I will send on mug of coffee for tsimonq2 for chairing tonight
<Rosco2> Yay \
<pavlushka> that was a yummy meeting I must say
<tsimonq2> >:D
<nzoueidi> I will wxl
<tsimonq2> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | UMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<Eickmeyer> Big thanks to Rosco2 for his help!
<teward> nzoueidi: nah he needs less coffee and more WATER  *shot*
<tsimonq2> So
<wxl> nope
<tsimonq2> Anything?
<wxl> ^
<tsimonq2> Anyone modulo Lubuntu Membership?
<tsimonq2> I don't think we need to discuss it here, but meh :)
<Eickmeyer> If Ubuntu Studio membership was a thing, I'd go for that too.
<tsimonq2> hehe
<tsimonq2> Ending in...
<tsimonq2> 10
<tsimonq2> 9
<tsimonq2> 8
<tsimonq2> 7
<tsimonq2> 6
<tsimonq2> 5
<tsimonq2> 4
<nzoueidi> Eickmeyer, added to ~ubuntumembers
<tsimonq2> 3
<tsimonq2> 2
<tsimonq2> 1
<tsimonq2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  1 20:42:55 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-01-20.29.moin.txt
<tsimonq2> Thanks, y'all :)
<wxl> that is the most bizarre use of modulo ever
<Eickmeyer> Thanks everyone!
<tsimonq2> Thanks nzoueidi
<wxl> in fact, it's completely ridiculous
<tsimonq2> wxl: shush XD
<nzoueidi> xD
<teward> *throws @tsimonq2 back over to telegram*
 * bashfulrobot looks up modulo
<bashfulrobot> wait what? tsimonq2 that was odd
<bashfulrobot> ha ha
<wxl> i don't think he knows what he's talking about
<wxl> in fact i'm sure of it XD
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I looked it up and cannot make heads or tails of what he meant.
<wxl> the only thing i can think is perhaps he means is there anyone remaining that's not divided between the choices of supporting or not supporting it?
<wxl> even then i'm REALLLLLLY reaching
<pavlushka> Eickmeyer: so the coin is loaded incorrectly I guess
<pavlushka> Eickmeyer: and Hi
<Eickmeyer> pavlushka: Sideways, in fact. Perpendicular. Square peg, round hole.
<Eickmeyer> Hi!
 * Eickmeyer is off to work
<Eickmeyer> Thanks again everone!
<wxl> np congrats and keep up the good work Eickmeyer
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-10-28
<slashd> marcustomlinson, I found the action : ACTION: cyphermox to update PPU for marcustomlinson, adding libreoffice and libreoffice-l10n . I'll ping cyphermox and see when he thinks he will make it
<marcustomlinson> thanks slashd!
<slashd> marcustomlinson, by now you should at least be part of the contribution developer team which I added you last week
<slashd> the rest is in progress...
<cyphermox> yes, sorry; this is a bit complicated to handle but I'll have it done today
<slashd> marcustomlinson, ^
<marcustomlinson> cyphermox: thank you :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-10-29
<joeubuntu> Hey All
<jamespage> o/
<didrocks> hey o/
<cyphermox> hey hey
<didrocks> I guess it will be only us for this week, do you have anything special to share? (I don't have anything from the desktop side at this stage of the cycle)
<joeubuntu> I heard abootimg would no longer need an MIR, is that correct?
<jamespage> nothing from openstack right now - have some early cycle work to complete before our current MIR set is ready for review
<didrocks> maybe cyphermox would know? ^ (abootimg)
<didrocks> seems bdmurray confirmed it in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abootimg/+bug/1846208/comments/4
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1846208 in abootimg (Ubuntu) "[MIR] abootimg (dependency of initramfs-tools-ubuntu-core)" [High,Incomplete]
<didrocks> xnox dropped it in https://github.com/snapcore/core-build/pull/55/commits
<joeubuntu> great. thanks
<didrocks> I guess we could wrap for now then? We'll do probably a proper round of new MIRs next week
<joeubuntu> sounds good to me.
<didrocks> thanks! see you next week :) short and easy
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-10-31
<rbalint> o/
 * vorlon waves
<bdmurray> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<infinity> \o
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 31 15:01:45 2019 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> bdmurray sil2100 cyphermox mwhudson tdaitx doko juliank xnox vorlon infinity rbalint waveform
<bdmurray> updated daisy retracer code for more python-cassandra changes
<bdmurray> updated daisy retracer code to support retracing of focal
<bdmurray> discovered issue with Conents.gz being 0 bytes for eoan release pocket
<bdmurray> updated lp retracer config to support retracing of focal
<bdmurray> created apport test crashes for focal
<bdmurray> updated retracer cronjob to count users of 20.04
<bdmurray> investigation into when 'apt list --upgradable' is displayed
<bdmurray> reviewed MP from sil2100 re ubuntu-release-upgrader
<xnox> bdmurray:  contents will be fixed, right?
<bdmurray> â done
<cyphermox> - netplan NetworkManager plugin
<cyphermox> - coordinating net-tools deprecation
<cyphermox> - debugging grub2 "unknown tpm" issue (patch ready, to SRU today)
<bdmurray> xnox: Yes, contents is fixed already and permanent fix is landing
<cyphermox> - reiwa support patched
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> *patches
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<bdmurray> I think he said something about lunch
<bdmurray> doko: ?
<doko> - working on libreoffice autopkg test failure, without
<doko>   support from the Debian/Ubuntu package maintainters.
<doko>   https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=92267
<doko>   Can't wait for the comments that I broke the archive ...
<doko> - GCC 9 update
<bdmurray> how about we skip to xnox!
<doko> - bug reports for Python3 packages
<ubottu> gcc.gnu.org bug 92267 in libstdc++ "[9 Regression] crash with a cppunit test case (built by GCC 9) and cpptest (built with GCC 8)" [Normal,Assigned]
<doko> (done)
<xnox> Work with mwhudson on klibc bug #1850184
<ubottu> bug 1850184 in linux (Ubuntu Focal) "losetup -f broken in 2.0.6-1ubuntu2" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1850184
<xnox> Attended OIN office hours in lyon (private summary to follow)
<xnox> Created merge proposal for :i386 resolution in germinate, it now produces matching output as the static EOAN list, but fails testsuite in other ways
<xnox> Customer meetings prep
<xnox> Roadmap sprint prep
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * archive opening
<infinity>  * Very Long weekend and short week.
<vorlon>  * autopkgtest shepherding
<vorlon>  * python2 removals (NBS, process-removals, etc)
<vorlon>  * working around python3.8 build failures in packages that need update to drop python2
<infinity>  * Some help with transitions.
<infinity>  * Getting d-i hobbling along while we decide how to kill it.
<infinity>  * Work with LP on Contents issue.
<infinity>  * Misc AA/SRU stuff.
<infinity> (done)
<vorlon>  * 20.04 roadmap prep
<vorlon> (done)
<rbalint> * poked systemd and other packages to migrate
<rbalint> * SRUs: systemd (eoan)
<rbalint> * SRU verifications: unattended-upgrades
<rbalint> * reported  LP:#1850667 and set up ppa:rbalint/systemd-unified-cgh for testing the new upstream systemd default which is reverted in Ubuntu to avoid regressions
<rbalint> * merged systemd again from Debian, poking it to migrate
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Added flash-kernel entry for Pi 3A+; LP: #1841955
<waveform> * Testing kernel fixes for Pi 4 USB issue across various pis - all looking good except for flash-kernel issue (next); LP: #1848790
<waveform> * Investigating Bionic SRU of Pi 4 support
<waveform> * Noticed flash-kernel only updates dtb for platform it is being run on. Unfortunately, there is a baked-in assumption that it will only ever deal with one dtb (while Pi requires it to handle all dtbs, and preferably overlays too). Working on a fix; LP: #1850678
<waveform> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1841955 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu) "Can't upgrade kernel on raspberry pi3a+" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1841955
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848790 in linux-raspi2 (Ubuntu) "USB not working under arm64 on Pi4" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848790
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1850678 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu) "flash-kernel only updates the dtb of the Pi it's on" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1850678
<xnox> rbalint:  one can just use kernel boot option no? or is that too hard for users?
<xnox> rbalint:  i.e. i don't think we will be able to move off hybrid in 20.04
<rbalint> xnox, it is fine if we don't move off, the bug is there to track readiness
<xnox> rbalint:  ack
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> actually lets start with ff
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> There's one new here bug 1849477
<ubottu> bug 1849477 in numpy (Ubuntu Focal) "numpy fails on s390x" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1849477
<bdmurray> somebody tagged it rls-ff-incoming and somebody said it was fixed but the tag was left
<xnox> bdmurray:  but also it is fixed in -proposed already by mwhudson
<bdmurray> I've cleaned it up but lets try not to leave that for me
<bdmurray> xnox: bug 1847852
<ubottu> bug 1847852 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "lxd group is added to too many products" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1847852
<bdmurray> Okay, now ee
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> I still need to review those but roadmap work is taking priority
<bdmurray> sorting by date created bug 1849156 is recent
<ubottu> bug 1849156 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-timesyncd.service broken on upgrade to 19.10 if ntp was installed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1849156
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1849156/+activity
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1849156 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-timesyncd.service broken on upgrade to 19.10 if ntp was installed" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> xnox: it looks like rblalint asked a question about splitting the package
<rbalint> taking it
<bdmurray> Will splitting the package fix it for Eoan?
<rbalint> bdmurray, sruing the change will
<xnox> bdmurray:  yes, but upgrade testing will be fun.
<bdmurray> Well we'll do something for Focal, so I'll card this. The SRU fix sounds a bit more complicated.
<xnox> i think the key is to have it done right for Bionic to Focal upgrades
<bdmurray> bug 1848892
<ubottu> bug 1848892 in grub2 (Ubuntu) ""error: Unknown TPM error." after upgrading to grub 2.04" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848892
<cyphermox> I'm on top of that
<cyphermox> will upload SRU with a patch that will mitigate this today; and I think this is a good candidate for fast-tracking
<cyphermox> there's a worrying number of reports
<bdmurray> cyphermox: Do you already have a card for it?
<cyphermox> (I submitted my patch already upstream)
<cyphermox> no, there isn't AFAIK
<cyphermox> I go create card
<bdmurray> cyphermox: okay, thanks!
<cyphermox> done
<cyphermox> anyway, agree on fast-tracking>
<cyphermox> ?
<cyphermox> vorlon: ^
<bdmurray> cyphermox: does fast-tracking mean wait less than 7 days in -proposed?
<cyphermox> yes
<cyphermox> the patch is straightforward and the effects of the bug are quite jarring
<vorlon> I'm not committing to that just yet
<cyphermox> OTOH, it's grub, and omg
<vorlon> the bug currently has no SRU template, so that's a necessary first step
<bdmurray> As a fake SRU team member I'd have to see the patch before deciding
<bdmurray> But it does seem important enough to get the fix out there
<cyphermox> bdmurray: patch is linked in my last comment on the bug
<cyphermox> I'll prepare the package changes shortly and update the bug with a template
<bdmurray> cyphermox: it looks like you have bug 1848797 in hand too, but there isn't a code change correct?
<ubottu> bug 1848797 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "After upgrading to 19.10, boot screen shows: "Error: symbol 'grub_file_filters' not found."" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848797
<bdmurray> There is nothing new for rls-bb
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<xnox> doko:  do we care about python3-defaults migrating with 3.8 as supported, rather than starting the transition to 3.8 as default?
<vorlon> I think despite the volume of packages here and the known entanglements, we are at a point where it's worth asking people to divide and conquer
<xnox> doko:  imho it seems odd to ever support default as lower than a supported version.
<vorlon> because they're largely things that do need attention in order to get them through, not just things that are waiting for infra
<xnox> (because there are aloways things in the chain that embed default interpreters only)
<bdmurray> The other day you (vorlon) had mentioned tracking the conquering - is that right?
<bdmurray> or maybe its really the dividing that needs tracking ;-) the conquering is obvious
<vorlon> bdmurray: uh I'm not sure; the last thing I mentioned was about python2 removals
<vorlon> which is different from this
<vorlon> anyway, looking at python3-defaults alone, which is the oldest package on there (because archive opening), most of those are going to require attention
<doko> xnox: not my priority now. my priority is to work on the numpy stack, that's the most broken thing currently
<rbalint> let's go in order and pick
<vorlon> either by fixing source compatibility with python3.8, or (temporarily) dropping support in the package for python3-all and filing bugs in Debian
<xnox> doko:  ack =/
<vorlon> do we just want to round-robin assign a couple to everyone?
<cyphermox> volunteering for python-apt, I guess
<vorlon> ok, python-apt - cyphermox
<vorlon> asciidoc - sil2100
<rbalint> probably we should all take a look at the breakages for python-defaults
<vorlon> cloudpickle - mwhudson (hi!)
<vorlon> dask - tdaitx
<vorlon> I'll skip doko because I know he's working on numpy
<rbalint> twisted -rbalint
<tdaitx> vorlon: ack
<cyphermox> notpandas notpandas notpandas notpandas... ;)
<waveform> I can take pyzmq
<tdaitx> let me know when it is ok to send my status
<xnox> jajajjajjajj
<rbalint> cron & systemd just needed a retrigger imo
<vorlon> django-auto-one-to-one - xnox (and fyi last I knew django base packages were incompatible with python3.8)
<vorlon> xnox: so you can have django-mailman3 also
<xnox> har, i can do django
<vorlon> gnudatalanguage - vorlon
<doko> there's a django transition ongoing in debian
<vorlon> gyoto - infinity
<vorlon> hyperkitty - rbalint
<vorlon> i3pystatus - waveform
<vorlon> are we ok to assign out a single round, and ask people to self-organize to take a second package from the list when they get it done?
<rbalint> +1
<doko> +2
<bdmurray> vorlon: self-organize and communicate where?
<vorlon> #ubuntu-release, please
<cyphermox> cool
<bdmurray> sounds reasonable
<bdmurray> Is that it regarding proposed-migration?
<vorlon> doko, xnox: right, there was python-django 2:2.2.4-1 that was synced in eoan and then reverted because the transition wasn't ready to go; so step one is probably to merge it
<vorlon> I think so for now
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<rbalint> bdmurray, and use update-excuse tag which i forgot from my weeklog!
<bdmurray> but let's rewind so we can hear what tdaitx has been up to
<tdaitx> * whoopsie security update (LP: #1830865)
<tdaitx>   - introduced a regression + DoS daisy server
<tdaitx>   - fixed regression and coordinated a bit with IS
<tdaitx> * apport security fixes (LP: #1830862, LP: #1839795, LP: #1839413, LP: #1839415, LP: #1839420)
<tdaitx> * getting multipass serial console to work to test LP: #1831252
<tdaitx> Other:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1830865 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "Integer overflow in bson_ensure_space (bson.c:613)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1830865
<tdaitx> - need more coffee and sleep
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1830862 in Apport "Apport reads arbitrary files if ~/.config/apport/settings is a symlink" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1830862
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1839795 in apport (Ubuntu) "PID recycling enables an unprivileged user to generate and read a crash report for a privileged process" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1839795
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1839413 in Apport "TOCTTOU ("time of check to time of use") "cwd" variable race condition" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1839413
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1839415 in Apport "Fully user controllable lock file due to lock file being located in world-writable directory" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1839415
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1839420 in Apport "Per-process user controllable Apport socket file" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1839420
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1831252 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Disco) "panic=-1 is completely ignored by the initrd causing unexpected behaviour" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831252
<tdaitx> thanks bdmurray
<rbalint> aob: i'm out tomorrow
<bdmurray> and sil2100 is also out
<bdmurray> alright thanks everybody
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 31 15:44:17 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-10-31-15.01.moin.txt
<rbalint> o/
