#launchpad-meeting 2006-07-17
* Starting logfile irclogs/launchpad-meeting.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/launchpad-meeting.log
<mpool> hm i thought so
<mpool> echo
<lifeless> ohce
<spiv> Hello.
<lifeless> I believe ddaa is on leave today, can anyone confirm ?
<mpool> lifeless: ah it's true
<spiv> His StaffCalendar entry appears to be neglected.
<mpool> he said "coming back monday evening", but it is not monday evening yet
<mpool> slacker
<mpool> well shall we proceed for a brief meeting without him?
<lifeless> https://launchpad.canonical.com/BazaarMeetingAgenda
<lifeless> has the agenda
<lifeless> if someone would care to run the meet ?
<lifeless> also, I'd like to add dyson status to the agenda
<mpool> i will
<mpool> == Agenda ==
<mpool> Usual introduction
<mpool> * roll call * production status
<mpool> Current focus
<mpool> * SFTP advertising * vcs-import knits * cscvs/bzr-native * supermirror branch browser * private branches * cscvs/svn-symlinks
<mpool> Usual end
<mpool> * other meeting actions * critical bugs * pending sysadmin tasks * any other business
<mpool> hm, odd
<mpool> oh well
<lifeless> using irssi ?
<mpool> #1- roll call
<mpool> (yes)
<mpool> mbp: here
<SteveA> hello
<lifeless> paste_join_multiline=no; 
<lifeless> put that in your config file
<spiv> here
<mpool> * production status - any comments?
<mpool> going once...
<mpool> ok, i think the next item not related to ddaa would be "supermiror branch brower"
<mpool> for spiv/stevea? on which i was happy to see some mail this week...
<lifeless> for spiv
<lifeless> spiv: ?
<spiv> Yeah, I'm working on that.
<spiv> So, the hgweb bzr plugin has moderately ugly code.
<spiv> But it doesn't look totally horrible to get it to do what we want.
<mpool> ok
<spiv> And we can feed improvements we make to it back upstream, of course.
<mpool> well
<mpool> i think it's up to you whether it's easier to reuse that or do something yourself
<spiv> (It does some gratuitously dumb things, like assign to sys.stdout.  Ugh.)
<mpool> likely because the hg code is cardcoded to stdout
<spiv> I think what I'll do is refactor; perhaps, eventually, we'll replace all the pieces, but no need to throw it all out at once.
<spiv> Hmm, I don't think so, it's just this code is being a bit too happy with abusing global state.  But anyway, that's fixable.
<mpool> ok
<mpool> that sounds like a good approach 
<mpool> any other comments?
<spiv> Not yet.
<mpool> ok, so 
<mpool> * private branches
<mpool> whose is this?
<lifeless> mine I guess
<lifeless> I have not replied to ddaas questions yet, but I scanned them
<lifeless> I think they are reasonable requests for more info, but there is no actions to take from them.
<mpool> so what is the next action - you need to give ddaa design review feedback?
<lifeless> I guess
<mpool> cool
<mpool> i assume "cscvs" issues rest with david
<mpool> * any critical bugs?
<jamesh> this was a branch I was working on
<jamesh> the svn-symlinks one
<mpool> oh, ok
<jamesh> it is merged now, so we should be able to import SVN branches that use symlinks correctly when the code gets rolled out
<mpool> great
<mpool> any other news on it?
<jamesh> nope.
<mpool> ok, then: any critical bugs or sysadmin requests?
<jamesh> the "branch scanner not working" bug should get fixed with tuesday's rollout
<mpool> any more?
<mpool> * any other business?
<lifeless> dyson
<lifeless> jamesh: whats news ?
<jamesh> lifeless: still working on it.  I've got some basic error handling, but this part of the code does not have much in the way of tests
<lifeless> jamesh: Is there an ETA ?
<lifeless> for having it deployable, as opposed to perfected.
<lifeless> (where the balance is I trust you to decide)
<jamesh> lifeless: I can put it up for review and merge tomorrow.  It shouldn't work any less well than before ...
<jamesh> s/and merge//
<jamesh> will merge when reviewed
<lifeless> and thats able to work with the proxy in the dc ?
<jamesh> yep.
<lifeless> awesome
<jamesh> if $ftp_proxy is set, it will use the HTTP implementation of the Walker class too
<lifeless> great work
<mpool> ok, any other business?
<lifeless> noot from I
<SteveA> nope
<spiv> Nope.
<mpool> ok, thanks - a short meeting is a good meeting
<mpool> 3 
<mpool> 2
<mpool> ...
<mpool> 1
<mpool> ...
<mpool> sold!
<mpool> i'll post a summary to the wiki
<lifeless> also mail launchpad@ please
* Starting logfile irclogs/launchpad-meeting.log
#launchpad-meeting 2006-07-20
* ..[topic/#launchpad-meeting:irc.freenode.net] : public launchpad meeting channel
<mpt> If this is an open channel, why are we here rather than in #launchpad?
<mpt> Flash mob!
#launchpad-meeting 2008-07-15
<spiv> Meeting time?
<spiv> Barry said he wasn't here, IIRC.
<spiv> Did mwhudson volunteer last week to run the meeting, or am I imagining that? :)
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 21:06. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<thumper> hi barry
<jml> barry: hi
<barry> thumper: hi!
<mwhudson> spiv: no, that's next week and the week after
<barry> jml: hi!
<spiv> mwhudson: ah.
<spiv> Hi!
<mwhudson> spiv: though i wasn't completely sure of this until barry arrived :)
<barry> spiv: hi!
<mwhudson> barry: hello
<barry> welcome to this week's asiapacreviewersmeeting
<spiv> mwhudson: that approximates "I'm imagining that" fairly well :)
<barry> st00pid spacebar
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry> == Agenda ==
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Next meeting
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Queue status
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>  * Review process
<barry> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<thumper> now += 1 week
<barry> yep, with mwhudson chairing the next two
<mwhudson> right
<thumper> cool
<barry> thanks!
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>  * mwhudson to start discussion on page test purpose
<mwhudson> done
<barry> mwhudson: yes, thanks for getting ball rolling!
<barry>  * thumper to submit a bug for moving ftests contents to tests
<mwhudson> not huge amounts of actual discussion yet, but no serious disagreements
<thumper> completely forgot about that one
 * barry still has to follow up on that thread
<thumper> but ISTR someone else filed one
<thumper> I have hundreds of unred emails right now
<barry> thumper: i think so too
<thumper> or even unread
<barry> thumper: can you double check to make sure that's been filed?
<thumper> sure
<barry> thumper: thanks
<barry>  * jml to find out how divmodders test their javascript
<jml> same as last week. have talked with them but need to dig into code.
<barry> jml: cool. let's just keep it on the agenda
<barry> the rest of the action items are for ameus
<jml> ok
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Queue status
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Queue status
 * barry sucks for not being able to do on-call today
<barry> there are three pink branches, but i know about the launchpadlib-integration branch
<barry> and of course the neverending testsuite2 branch
<barry> any comments on the queue from you guys?
 * thumper is wrestling with firefox
<jml> barry: what's the testsuite2 branch again?
<mwhudson> hm, i approved  mpt/launchpad/2008-07-location-ff2 i think
<barry> jml: i don't exactly remember but every time i try to kill it, jamesh or stub says "no"
<mwhudson> didn't realise it was on PendingReviews
<barry> maybe i should ping them again on it
<jml> *nod*
<barry> [ACTION] barry to ping jamesh and stub on the testsuite2 branch
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to ping jamesh and stub on the testsuite2 branch
<jml> barry: get one of them to write a cover letter.
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring updates
<barry> jml: or move it to wip
<jml> barry: or both :)
<barry> jml: good idea
<jml> barry: the advantage of a cover letter is we'll know what it is.
<barry> yeah!
 * barry has nothing on mentoring
<mwhudson> who is being mentored currently?
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Review process
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Review process
<barry> mwhudson: i think it's edwin cprov
<mwhudson> and aaron?
<barry> mwhudson: yep, though he hasn't started yet.  i plan on talking with him tomorrow
<mwhudson> ok
 * barry has nothing on the review process
<barry> anything else from you guys?  anything you want me to ask/communicate to the ameus?
<mwhudson> hmm, https://launchpad.canonical.com/PreMergeReviews#head-2dd754eaa80be7573433fe3e30b217789644c607 seems rather spectacularly out of date
<jml> barry: nothing from me.
<barry> [ACTION] barry to update PreMergeReviews
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to update PreMergeReviews
<barry> mwhudson: phew , yes!
<mwhudson> most of stacking landed in bzr yesterday/last night
<barry> yay!
<thumper> \o/
<mwhudson> so that's one stop closer to dogfooding launchpad
<jml> yeah.
<barry> mwhudson: that will rock
<barry> mwhudson: is there anything clients have to be aware of when we switch to stacking?
 * jml smiles
<barry> mwhudson: or do we just change our urls? :)
<jml> barry: you'll need to be using a client bzr that supports stacking
<thumper> barry: it should be pretty transparent as a client
<barry> jml: 1.6?
<mwhudson> but hopefully, bzr 1.6 and some locations.conf changes and that's it
<jml> barry: then Launchpad will tell the client how to stack
<barry> are there any weird interactions between stacking and looms?
<jml> not that I'm aware of. haven't rigorously tested that angle though
<thumper> I'm not sure about stacked looms right now
<barry> many of us are quite addicted to looms
<spiv> I wouldn't expect any great surprises there.
<jml> barry: yeah, I use looms a lot
<jml> barry: but "addicted" is a pretty strong word.
<spiv> They operate at different layers.
<mwhudson> even if noone quite understands what 'record' does :)
<mwhudson> spiv: but looms define a new branch format... doesn't it inherit from branch6?
<mwhudson> looks like the plugin will need updating a bit
<barry> [ALIASES] jfdi = record
<jml> surely you mean: jfdi = record ''
<jml> you have to specify a message :)
<barry> jml: :-D
<mwhudson> mine is usually 'whut'
<jml> so, I'm about to take a train ride
 * barry hearts trains
<jml> on this train ride I will be either testing stacking or patching bzr-loom to fix record
<barry> jml: when you say "fix record" do you mean "get rid of the onion in the varnish"?
<jml> barry: I mean start making tweaks along the lines of discussions I've had with lifeless
<jml> barry: I don't understand record, but I assume lifeless does :)
<spiv> barry: that's a phrase I haven't heard before...
<barry> jml: if lifeless doesn't understand record, then nobody does :)
<jml> barry: things like a log of recordings, commit-style editing, a status indicator showing that you need to record
<barry> spiv: jim fulton used to tell this story regarding zope3. not easy to relate in irc ;)
<spiv> I understand the intent of record, I think.
<spiv> I'm not sure how far apart the implementation and the intent are.
<jml> I understand the intent
<jml> I'm just not yet convinced it's a good idea.
<barry> spiv: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OnionInTheVarnish
<spiv> barry: ta
<mwhudson> aaaaaaaaaaaanyway
<barry> yes.  that's all i have
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:32.
<barry> thanks everyone.  have a good few weeks
<mwhudson> you too
<mwhudson> plz fix the test suite in montreal
<mwhudson> :
<mwhudson> :)
<barry> mwhudson: oh yes
<barry> see ya
#launchpad-meeting 2008-07-16
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:02. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<sinzui> me
 * barry resets mootbot's clock
<barry> welcome to this week's ameu reviewer's meeting!  who's here today?
<allenap> me
<bac> meme
<sinzui> me
<flacoste> do re me
<barry> wow, it's sparse today :)
<flacoste> salgado: ping
<flacoste> EdwinGrubbs: ping
<barry> BjornT, cprov ping
<gmb> me
<barry> EdwinGrubbs: ping
<barry> danilo_: ping
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<flacoste> bigjools and cprov are sprinting
<BjornT> me
<barry> cool
<flacoste> abentley?
<intellectronica> me (but also participating in an ubuntu meeting irl, so don't expect much from me)
<cprov> me
<flacoste> cprov: will bigjools join?
<cprov> I can attend this
<cprov> flacoste: yes, he will be here in a minute
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry> == Agenda ==
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Next meeting
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Queue status
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>  * Review process
<barry> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<barry> next week foundations & commercialization will be sprinting in montreal, but i suggest we still have this meeting
<barry> so, week += 1?
<barry> i will not be here the following week (july 30).  any volunteers to chair the meeting?
<salgado> me
<flacoste> salgado: is volunteering!
<salgado> no!
<cprov> :)
<barry> :)
<flacoste> well you said me!
<flacoste> that's for being late ;-)
<salgado> dammit
<salgado> heh. ok
<barry> salgado: excellent!
<flacoste> well
<barry> [AGREED] salgado to chair 30-jul meeting
<MootBot> AGREED received:  salgado to chair 30-jul meeting
<flacoste> actually i think he'll be on vacation
<flacoste> err, leave
<salgado> I won't
<salgado> I get back on the 30th
<barry> salgado: seriously though, you don't mind chairing it?
<salgado> barry, no, it's okay
<barry> salgado: thanks!
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>  * flacoste to submit bug report on cachedproperty needing to `__storm_invalidate__` (and update checklist)
<flacoste> done
<barry> flacoste: thanks!
<barry>  * intellectronica to write up guidelines on check_permission in the wiki and email the ml for additional input
<intellectronica> haven't done that yet, sorry
<barry> intellectronica: we'll carry it forward
<barry>  * barry to ping jamesh and stub on the testsuite2 branch
<barry> not done
<barry>  * barry to update PreMergeReviews
<barry> not done
<barry> the rest are for asiapacsters
<barry> [TOPIC] queue status
<MootBot> New Topic:  queue status
<barry> fortunately, we only have 3 pink branches
<jtv> er... me?
<barry> the only one i don't know about is EdwinGrubbs's branch
<barry> gmb: what's up with that?
<gmb> barry: Let me check...
<flacoste> leonard's branch is done
<flacoste> i'm only lame in updating status
<barry> 7 branches in the GQ
<barry> flacoste: cool, i thought that was the case
<gmb> barry: ISTR that I gave that merge-approved or merge-coditional. I obviously didn't update the branch status though.
<gmb> barry: I'll double check and update it shortly.
<barry> gmb: cool, thanks
<intellectronica> oh, i reviewed once branch of mpt from the gq but forgot to move it. i'll do that now
<barry> intellectronica: thanks.  btw, from what i understand, we may not be far from being able to dogfood all this crap in lp
<barry> we will have to hoist some v-champagne when that happens :)
<intellectronica> woohoo
<barry> anything else on the queue from y'all?
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring status
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring status
<barry> any feedback on mentoring?
<intellectronica> cprov is starring
<intellectronica> b.t.w cprov, i moved my shift to friday. we should think how to coordinate working together a bit
<cprov> intellectronica: sure, I will probably do a double shift next week
<intellectronica> cool
<sinzui> rock. I hope there is less to review on Fridays
<bigjools> me
<barry> bigjools: hi!
<bigjools> sorry,  we had a late lunch
<barry> i'm hoping to start getting abentley some branches
<barry> bigjools: no worries
<barry> [TOPIC] Review process
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review process
<barry> there's nothing on the agenda, but the ml has been pretty active :)
<barry> any comments on the process from y'all?
<barry> well, that's it from me.  anybody have anything not on the agenda?  if not, we can end in record time
<intellectronica> x-platform testing
<sinzui> x-box?
<intellectronica> i discussed this today with mpt, following our IE6 misery
<jtv> sinzui: x-box is a bar here in Bangkok.
<jtv> X-Box: Bangkok's Play Station.
<intellectronica> we'll have to make sure that we have VMs available with all the platforms we support, so that ppl working on UI development can use them
<sinzui> I fear we need more developers with vms for macos and windows
<flacoste> what about browsershots?
<intellectronica> nothing more to say about that, other than that i intend to follow up on that
<flacoste> isn't it what its for?
<intellectronica> flacoste: browserhosts is only for public stuff, not?
<flacoste> can't remember
<intellectronica> flacoste: also, it doesn't help you test interactive stuff
<mpt> flacoste, intellectronica, this is bug 174422
<ubottu> mpt: Bug 174422 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/174422 is private
<flacoste> a right
<barry> sinzui: i think osx is fairly well covered.  i know that the warsaw's are a windows-free zone though :)
<bigjools> amen brother :)
<intellectronica> barry: windows is an easy problem to solve, since you can run it in a VM
<sinzui> barry: The same is true for the Lawerence-Hovey's
<barry> intellectronica: true... if i even had a windows license!
<intellectronica> it might be nice to maintain a list of platforms people have available
<allenap> I have a Windows VM <shiver>
<allenap> It gets started twice a year for updates.
<flacoste> windows 2000 in a vm (for doing myt axes)
<flacoste> so boots up once a year
<barry> intellectronica: good idea
<barry> we should also be testing multiple browsers on multiple platforms.  certainly safari on osx. but also ff2 and ff1.5
<bigjools> maybe IS could provide some vnc desktops to test with
<barry> bigjools: great idea
<intellectronica> bigjools: even that isn't so simple, because sometimes you'll need to expose a running instance you're developing on
<bigjools> intellectronica: true
<intellectronica> i think it will be good to turn this into two actions:
<bigjools> but the Soyuz team has mawson, which is our own private staging :)
<intellectronica> 1. start a list on the wiki of devs/available platforms (i can do that)
<barry> [ACTION] <intellectronica> to start a list on the wiki of devs/available platforms
<MootBot> ACTION received:  <intellectronica> to start a list on the wiki of devs/available platforms
<intellectronica> 2. start a discussion on how to provide testing platforms for developers (i expect it will take a lot of time and effort to arrive at a solution)
<intellectronica> but at least we can get the ball rolling
<barry> intellectronica: can you send the initial email to the ml?
<intellectronica> sure
<barry> [ACTION] intellectronica to start the ball rolling on an email to the ml re: multiple browsers/platforms
<MootBot> ACTION received:  intellectronica to start the ball rolling on an email to the ml re: multiple browsers/platforms
<barry> intellectronica: thanks
<barry> any other topics?
<barry> okay, i think we're done
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:32.
<jtv> thanks barry!
<barry> thanks everyone!
<intellectronica> thanks barry
<bigjools> MootBot: what timezone is that?
<flacoste> CDT?
<EdwinGrubbs> yep
<bigjools> EdwinGrubbs: Santone :)
<EdwinGrubbs> yes, the mootbot must be visiting the Alamo
#launchpad-meeting 2008-07-17
<barry> Rinchen: sigh.  why is the last mootbot log for launchpad-meeting dated 10-jul?
<sinzui> That looks right to me
<Rinchen> barry, it's manual update. I'll go poke the owner if he's around
<barry> Rinchen: thanks
<Rinchen> #startmeeting
<Rinchen> Welcome to this week's Launchpad development meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating Launchpad development.
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:02. The chair is Rinchen.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<bigjools> me
<abentley> me
<matsubara> me
<sinzui> me
<Rinchen> you!
<mpt> me
<barry> me
<thumper> me
<adeuring> me
<allenap> me
<mars> me
<BjornT> me
<bac> me
<intellectronica> me
<flacoste> me
<jtv> me
<rockstar> me
<intellectronica> Rinchen: gmb apologises. he's traveling back oop north from london
<bigjools> Celso and Muharem send their apologies in an unpologetic kind of way
<Rinchen> apologies from mrevell, statik, and Edwin
<leonardr> me
<salgado> me
<Rinchen> releases team is here
<flacoste> Foundations is here
<thumper> Code is here
<Rinchen> looks like bugs is here
<herb> me
<Rinchen> mthaddon, ping
<kiko> me
<mthaddon> me
<Rinchen> OSAs are here
<Rinchen> and the 1 man soyuz team is here
<Rinchen> super
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<Rinchen>  * Next meeting
<Rinchen>  * Actions from last meeting
<Rinchen>  * Oops report (Matsubara)
<Rinchen>  * Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<Rinchen>  * Bug tags
<Rinchen>  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<Rinchen>  * DBA report (stub)
<Rinchen>  * Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<Rinchen>  * New packages required (salgado)
<Rinchen>  * A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<Rinchen>  * Doc Team report (mrevell)
<Rinchen> No doc team or user issues today though
<kiko> even I'm here today!
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting
<Rinchen> OSCON is next week
<mars> Foundations/Commercialization sprint is next week
<Rinchen> kiko and I won't be able to run the meeting next week. We have a session to be in
<Rinchen> anyone want to run the mtg next week?
 * kiko volunteers flacoste!
<kiko> oh, he's at a sprint.
<kiko> mpt? :)
<flacoste> kiko: well, if I host the meeting, you can be sure that all sprinters will attend :-)
<mpt> sure, I don't mind
<flacoste> but mpt is such a cool host!
<Rinchen> thanks mpt
<kiko> and a great 2.0 UI hacker too it turns out!
<Rinchen> so next week, same time, same channel
<Rinchen> allenap, sinzui - I missed your items in the agenda but we'll do them.
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Actions from last meeting
<sinzui> Rinchen: I know you did
<Rinchen> none
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Oops report (Matsubara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oops report (Matsubara)
<matsubara> Today's oops report is about bugs 249543
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 249543 in rosetta "Too many queries to render +products-with-translations page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/249543
<matsubara> jtv: can you take that one for next week?
<kiko> it's our highest query count, which means congratulations to everybody else who worked hard to fix the other pages that were hurting us
<jtv> matsubara: OK
<Rinchen> +10 kiko
<matsubara> yes, huge congrats to the team. current edge oops summary shows 3 hard timeouts and lpnet's only ~40.
<kiko> and of course congrats to rosetta who managed to move to being an outlier when it comes to timeouts :)
<kiko> storm n all!
<Rinchen> anything else for matsubara?
<matsubara> Rinchen: no, I'm done. thanks everyone
<jtv> kiko: 2 soft ones a day, I believe :)
<matsubara> and thank you jtv
<kiko> matsubara, can we get a report with the slowest pages?
<Rinchen> [AGREED] jtv to investigate bug 249543
<MootBot> AGREED received:  jtv to investigate bug 249543
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 249543 in rosetta "Too many queries to render +products-with-translations page" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/249543
<Rinchen> thanks matsubara and jtv
<kiko> matsubara, i.e. create a new section and finally get rid of the hard/soft timeout sections?
<kiko> the section would have Time Page ID and N (7?) Sample OOPSes
<kiko> and a page ID would only appear once
<kiko> maybe 10 slowest pages
<matsubara> kiko: yes, I'll give it a shot on that next week the latest
<kiko> cool
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> Bug  248691 and bug 196364
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 248691 in launchpad "Many pages are mostly blank in Internet Explorer 7" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/248691
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 196364 in rosetta ""Upload a file" link available when I don't have permission" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/196364
<kiko> matsubara, we should also add more OOPS samples to the time out count summary table we have there
<Rinchen> mpt and jtv - how are you coming with these?
<mpt> Rinchen, 248691 is already fixed, I just haven't got to the PQM message in my Inbox yet.
<Rinchen> k, thx mpt
<jtv> Rinchen: mine didn't quite make it in yesterday, so have to resubmit when PQM's open.  (Problems fixed up already)
<Rinchen> fantastic.
<Rinchen> thanks gents
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Bug tags
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug tags
<Rinchen> no new ones this week
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<herb> Several times over the last week an app server has died and left a stale pidfile lying around. See Bug #247227.
<herb> On a couple of occasions in the last week we've had to restart codebrowse. Codebrowse wasn't responding and had grown > 1.5GB resident.
<ubottu> herb: Bug 247227 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/247227 is private
<herb> Yesterday we rolled out the new UI to production. Woohoo!
<herb> Bug #224623, high load on the DB server, crept up last week while the LOSAs were sprinting. This is at least the 5th time in the last 4 months. If there is anything else we can to do help isolate the problem, please let us know.
<ubottu> herb: Bug 224623 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/224623 is private
<herb> that's it from Tom, Steve and me unless there are any questions.
<Rinchen> herb, is there any more detail/logs from the pidfile issue that can be added to the report?
<mthaddon> Rinchen, it's repeatable in a dev environment, so I don't think too much else could be given
<kiko> herb, does the appserver dying vary?
<Rinchen> mthaddon, I didn't know that. Thanks.
<mthaddon> Rinchen, kiko: per sinzui's comment
<herb> Rinchen: We pulled the access logs, launchpad log and nohup.out and there's nothing jumping out.
<herb> kiko: does it vary in what sense?
<kiko> herb, i.e. not always the same instance/server?
<kiko> mthaddon, sinzui's comment?
<herb> kiko: ah, yes.  it does vary.  different servers, different times.
<kiko> mthaddon, did mwhudson or someone on code fix the new codebrowse up enough to get it deployed?
<kiko> herb, gotcha.
<mthaddon> kiko, on the bug report
<sinzui> I'm mistaken for everyone now. I have become the generic LP developer
<thumper> kiko: we are running the new codebrowse
<mthaddon> kiko, yes
<kiko> thumper, hmmm, I was hoping that memory would be less of an issue with the new code
<thumper> it is
<thumper> but obviously not enough
<mthaddon> kiko, thumper: as far as we can tell, it could be mysql browsing that kills it
<kiko> hmm
<thumper> hmm
<mthaddon> or certain large branches...
<mthaddon> mwhudson would know more, though
<thumper> probably inefficiencies in the code
<kiko> okay
<kiko> should look into that, don't want us showing off for 2.0 and CB going legs up :)
<thumper> will do
<Rinchen> anything else for the OSAs?
<Rinchen> thanks herb and mthaddon
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  DBA report (stub)
<Rinchen> no stub today
 * Rinchen sighs.
<Rinchen> [ACTION] Rinchen to email stub for DBA report
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Rinchen to email stub for DBA report
<jtv> Rinchen: religious holiday here.
<kiko> jtv, last I checked stub wasn't religious.
<jtv> kiko: but the country he lives in is.
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> Is anyone blocked on an RT or have any that are becoming urgent?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] New packages required (salgado)
<MootBot> New Topic:  New packages required (salgado)
<salgado> anything for me this week?
<salgado> guess not
<Rinchen> k
<Rinchen> skipping mrevell's sections this week
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] When is AccountStatus.SUSPENDED? How are bad users such as spammers locked out? - sinzui
<MootBot> New Topic:  When is AccountStatus.SUSPENDED? How are bad users such as spammers locked out? - sinzui
<sinzui> I sent an email to the launchpad list for the LOSA and LP developers to look at today. I'm concerned that we have not clearly marked the accounts of bad users we want to suspend.
<sinzui> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/246320.
<ubottu> sinzui: Error: This bug is private
<sinzui> I have a script that will update these accounts, and a replacement script to use when we want to suspend an account.
<matsubara> Rinchen: sorry, he mailed me asking to do the user-affecting section for hiom
<matsubara> him
<sinzui> There is a third script that I think is a starting point for identifying broken accounts that we need to fix. These accounts are in an consistent state. We need to decide what state they should be in.
<Rinchen> matsubara, ok, we'll come back to that then. Thanks
<Rinchen> sinzui, I currently believe having a clear delineation between deactivated and suspended is needed.
<Rinchen> For normal folks who deactivate, we want them to be able to reactivate
<sinzui> Last week we saw about 3000 accounts in an inconsistent state
<Rinchen> for bad folks, like spammers, we want them banned.
<Rinchen> That's my interpretation at least.
<sinzui> mthaddon: provide me with the script that we have used. It is not good enough, but it did a very good job of clearly marking who we intended to SUSPEND.
<sinzui> I would like to get the SUSPENDED accounts really suspended this week
<Rinchen> sinzui, was your intent at today's meeting to seek a +1 on the need for delineation?
<flacoste> i think he was looking for a +1 on running his scripts
<sinzui> Rinchen: last week was to understand the deliniation
<sinzui> This week I'm in the position to offer a plan to fix the accounts.
<kiko> I am +1 on fixing the inconsistent data
<Rinchen> me too.  +1
<kiko> I also am happy that you've taken on the matter of clarifying this SUSPENDED stuff which looks half-baked
<Rinchen>  +1 to kiko's comment
<sinzui> fab
<Rinchen> any objections?
<herb> sinzui: you have email.
<Rinchen> ok, moving on
<sinzui> hate mail?
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Can we respond better to user questions raised in Answers? See the thread in launchpad@ and launchpad-users@. - allenap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Can we respond better to user questions raised in Answers? See the thread in launchpad@ and launchpad-users@. - allenap
<allenap> Hobbsee observed that 11 questions (in Answers) against Launchpad had expired because the LP staff hadn't addressed them.
<Rinchen> allenap, I answered this publicly
<herb> sinzui: nope. just letting you know how we handle things currently.
<Rinchen> releases team will start to do some of this
<allenap> Rinchen: I know, I'm getting to that.
<allenap> It struck me as strange that we weren't all answer contacts for Launchpad, so I wrote to the launchpad@ list. Some good responses, but it was all kind of summed up in Rinchen's reply to sinzui's statement that "the Release Team should be answer contacts".
<kiko> Rinchen, allenap: the solution to this is to have support rotations.
<allenap> Rinchen said: "... this is actually on my roadmap to begin when my second triage resource arrives and is trained up. So, a few weeks."
<Rinchen> I also agree with kiko that we should at least try the support rotations
<allenap> But I think intellectronica's idea of a weekly report (from Rinchen's triager?) was good.
<kiko> we should not try
<Rinchen> re: community help spec from Dec
<kiko> we should DO a rotation
<kiko> batching is nonsense, IMO
<abentley> kiko: Channeling your inner yoda?
<kiko> we should just make sure that there's somebody on-call at least once every 24h period
<kiko> so that when I go on vacation
<kiko> support requests still get answered!
<kiko> abentley, I try. oops. I mean I do.
<intellectronica> we could do it like we do with on call reviews
<kiko> yes!
<Rinchen> intellectronica, yeah, that's a similar vein to community help
<Rinchen> https://launchpad.canonical.com/JoeyStanford/CommunityHelpRotation
<intellectronica> ah ok, i'll need to catch up with that spec. joey thinks about everything
<allenap> Rinchen: IIRC, there was some resistance to that... or is that new?
<kiko> allenap, there was some resistance from stub, and I'm fine with him opting out.
<allenap> :)
<Rinchen> what kiko said
<allenap> intellectronica had another good idea: an announcer on IRC.
<Rinchen> it's still in draft which is why it's under my name
<Rinchen> but it's been though through quite a bit
<kiko> allenap, I think that technology alone won't fix this problem :)
<allenap> kiko: I agree, but it can prevent the issue from being forgotten.
<intellectronica> kiko: no, but it will raise awareness. people are more likely to fix the problem then
<mpt> We used to have an announcer for bug reports
<kiko> intellectronica, I disagree, because we already have users on #launchpad today that come in and ask questions which go unanswered.
<kiko> so no, I don't think this is a problem that an announcer will fix. an announcer might make the on-call support person's task easier, though -- less polling.
<allenap> kiko: But I don't get a *ping* when someone asks on IRC.
<kiko> allenap, just make #launchpad always flash blue when a line with a question mark appears? :)
<intellectronica> kiko: that's what i meant. announcing alone will not solve anything - there needs to be somewhere there waiting for the announcement eagerly
<kiko> right
<allenap> xchat could ping me when answer-bot sends a message.
<kiko> aaaanyway. on-call support FTW. :)
<allenap> +1
<intellectronica> cool. how do we go about setting that up?
<Rinchen> I re-re-re-publish the spec....
<allenap> intellectronica: Do you mean the on-call or the announcer. I'd imagine that the on-call is still in Rinchen's court for now.
<Rinchen> team leads discuss with teams
<Rinchen> and I figure out a way to do scheduling
<Rinchen> if we had one person take it per month...
<Rinchen> everyone could choose the same day and seek coverage
<Rinchen> We could also give this air time at the upcoming TL's meeting in August
<intellectronica> Rinchen: i think it should be more along the lines of person per weekly shift, like reviews
<intellectronica> anyway, i can respond to your spec, once i read it :)
<kiko> intellectronica, it can be once a month for the whole team, actually -- we have a large team
<kiko> Rinchen, I think we should JFDI
<Rinchen> intellectronica, either way is fine.   :-)   Reply back.
<Rinchen> another item back on my todo list :-)  thanks allenap  ;-)
<sinzui> On-call reviews work, we should have on-call answers using the same kind of rotor
<allenap> Rinchen: Apologies ;)
<Rinchen> it's all good
<flacoste> kiko: +1 on JFDI
<intellectronica> sinzui: i also think so. we have a ready made process that works very well
<Rinchen> we need to do this...which is why I have a spec for it :-)
<sinzui> intellectronica: agreed
<flacoste> Rinchen: place a schedule up on the wiki and let people place their name on it
<Rinchen> [AGREED] JFDI on https://launchpad.canonical.com/JoeyStanford/CommunityHelpRotation
<MootBot> AGREED received:  JFDI on https://launchpad.canonical.com/JoeyStanford/CommunityHelpRotation
<allenap> Does anyone know who created the bug announcer?
<Rinchen> allenap, yes I do
<Rinchen> allenap, there are 2 of them actually
<intellectronica> allenap: wasn't it mneptok?
<Rinchen> yes plus seveas
 * Rinchen wants to move on
<allenap> Cool, thanks.
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] A top user-affecting issue - matsubara
<MootBot> New Topic:  A top user-affecting issue - matsubara
<matsubara>  Some users reported permission issues while using Launchpad. More specifically a team ownership change reported by Hobbsee and a review request for a branch reported by Odd Bloke. I'll investigate those further and file bugs/contact the appropriate teams.
<matsubara> that's all
<matsubara> if anyone have any news regarding that, please let me know
<kiko> I saw this problem myself
<Rinchen> cool, we called this out on -code earlier as well
<kiko> is this unrelated to the issue joey was telling me about, the team transitivity issue?
<salgado> kiko, do you have a traceback?
<abentley> matsubara: I asked Odd_Bloke for details but got no response.
<matsubara> of all people, you shouldn't have any permission problems kiko :-)
<kiko> salgado, nope, but I'm sure I can try and reproduce on staging
<salgado> kiko, that'd be great -- I couldn't reproduce it
<thumper> request review is being looked at
<thumper> we know what the problem is
<thumper> and jml has a branch with fix
<salgado> thumper, which branch is that?
<matsubara> cool. thanks thumper, abentley and jml
<kiko> wooo
<thumper> will request CP once finished and reviewed
<Rinchen> Anything else before close the meeting?
<matsubara> Rinchen: not from me.
<thumper> salgado: to fix the "request review" fubar
<thumper> salgado: probably still on his laptop right now
<Rinchen> ok then!
<Rinchen> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Developer Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<Rinchen> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:49.
<salgado> thumper, ok, will chase him later
<kiko> aha
<Rinchen> ps the mootbot logs are not updating
<barry> Rinchen: i know :(
<kiko> ps this was a fun meeting after all!
<Rinchen> I'll be pasting in an IRC log until the bot is kicked
<intellectronica> thanks Rinchen
#launchpad-meeting 2008-07-18
<Rodrigo> Vitor
<Rodrigo> urru
<Rodrigo> Ã© nois maluco
<Rodrigo> kakakaka
<Vito0r> AEEEEEEEEEEE
<Rodrigo> tudu em INGLES
<Vito0r> bac,beuno,BjornT,herb,IRSeekBot2,jml,kiko,mars,MootBot,mpt,mthaddon,mwhudson,Odd_Bloke,Rinchen,rockstar,Rodrigo,salgado-afk,sinzui,spiv,spm,statik,SteveA,thumper,ToyKeeper,ubottu,ubuntulog,Vito0r
<Rodrigo> Â¬Â¬
<Vito0r> oi
<Vito0r> Hi
<Rodrigo> kakaka
<Vito0r> goodnitg
<Rodrigo> te tiraram
<Vito0r> Rodrigo aki so tem pau no cu
<Vito0r> vo fica no outro la
<Rinchen>  bug 249419
<ubottu> Rinchen: Bug 249419 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/249419 is private
#launchpad-meeting 2009-07-15
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewer's meeting.  who's here today?
<bigjools> me
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<sinzui> me
<deryck> me
<henninge> me
<mars> me
<noodles775> me
<henninge> jtv sends his apologies but he does need to sleep sometime ... ;-)
<intellectronica> me
<danilos> me
<barry> adeuring: ping
<adeuring> whoops, me
<barry> allenap: ping
<leonardr> me
<barry> bac: ping
<barry> BjornT: ping
<allenap> barry: I'm on holiday this week.
<gary_poster> me
<flacoste> me
<danilos> allenap: never mind that, you can lead the meeting :)
<danilos> cprov: you?
<mars> lol
<cprov> me
<BjornT> me
<bac> me
 * barry hates irc
<barry> i'm just going to assume everyone here :)
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>  * Including js script tags conditionally
<barry>  * ReST headers in doctests -- gmb
<barry>  * Permission explosions -- flacoste
<barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>  * gary_poster to take importfascist and rSP() discussion to ml
<gary_poster> barry: I will do that in the next week or we will take it off the list.
<gary_poster> my apologies
<barry> gary_poster: no worries.  thanks
<barry>  * intellectronica to email list about higher JS branch limits
<intellectronica> i did
<barry> intellectronica: yep, thanks!
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
<barry> any feedback from our mentors or mentats?
<barry> guess not :)
<deryck> it's been going fine for me, not that that's much feedback. :)
<barry> deryck: great to hear
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Including js script tags conditionally
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Including js script tags conditionally
<barry> sorry, i forget who added this one
<deryck> barry, I did, per a review you did of my branch.
<barry> deryck: right!  it's been one of those weeks ;)
<barry> deryck: take it away deryck the orchestra leader!
<deryck> This is Just as a reminder to all that we should only include script tags when in devmode, so that we don't load js twice.
<deryck> scripts are concat'ed into launchpad.js, so be careful of this, and watch for it in reviews.
<abentley> me (sorry I'm late)
<barry> deryck: can you describe the tal you used to load that conditionally?
<gmb> me
<deryck> barry, just a <tal:devmode condition="devmode"> with the scripts in that block.
<flacoste> deryck: can it be added to the JS wiki page?
<sinzui> The yahoo calendar widget is not in the compressed yui file, which does require a conditional in the head-epilogue.
<deryck> flacoste, sure, I can do that.
<barry> deryck: thanks
<deryck> np :)
<sinzui> Is it possible to get that script into something that is away "on"
<flacoste> sinzui: can't we just add it?
<sinzui> flacoste: I was tempted to do so last night. I'm not sure if the separation is historical or YUI2. I think I need a pre-imp call to understand the issue
<flacoste> sinzui: let's have a pre-impl call later
<sinzui> fab
<barry> cool.  anything else on this topic?
<barry> [TOPIC]  * ReST headers in doctests -- gmb
<MootBot> New Topic:   * ReST headers in doctests -- gmb
<gmb> Ah.
<gmb> So, this came up on Monday.
<gmb> First there was some confusion about whether we should use ReST or Moin style headers in  doctests.
<barry> rest
<gmb> Then, when bigjools and I had confirmed we should be using ReST, no one could remember why we had changed back to ReST from Moin
<barry> but existing pages can be changed as you go, low priority
<gmb> (having gone from ReST to Moin some time before)
<sinzui> lp-dev-util/formatdoctest -p path/to/tests/*.txt will fix many. Edwin pointed out though the script uses the headers I use from gedit doctests. we can tweak the script to use gary's headers
<gmb> barry: Right, but the point is that people are still confused about this, and the reasons for the change don't seem to have been communicated effectively.
<barry> gmb: we're trying to standardize on rest since that's basically what the python community has standardized on
<flacoste> well, they were
<flacoste> but
<flacoste> we didn't follow-through
<flacoste> the idea is that there are no tools to process Moin syntax
<flacoste> and we aren't really using Moin syntax at all anyway
<gary_poster> I guess.  trying to make it casual and low-pain means that people didn't notice or remember
<gary_poster> that is, I guess we didn't follow through
<flacoste> the idea was to have a sphinx easy setup to browse all the doctests
<sinzui> I think salgado or bac have test cleanup listed among their objectives. rs=sinzui to run the script and land the branch
<flacoste> as a start
<flacoste> and then start organizing it
<flacoste> that's what we didn't follow-through on
<gary_poster> that test cleanup sounds cool
<gary_poster> I see
<salgado> me
<barry> it would also be nice if we could start using rest in our wikis :)
<sinzui> salgado: are you late or volunteering to update all tests to ReST headers
<gary_poster> or both! :-)
<salgado> just late!
<barry> flacoste, sinzui  can we put some action items on the list for this?  or is it all just so background/low priority that we won't get to it any time soon?
<abentley> barry: We can start using rest in our wikis.
<barry> abentley: really?  well, that would be cool.  also in our merge proposal cover letters :)
<abentley> barry: Sure, moin has supported rest for years.
<flacoste> barry: yeah, it's not really a priority at the moment
<sinzui> barry: I can do it within the next 3 weeks. I will create a bug about it since I think we want to codify the header style in the script
<flacoste> standardizing on what the python community uses is sufficient in itself imho
<barry> flacoste, sinzui, abentley cool.  so, gmb does that answer the question? :)
<flacoste> especially since it means that's what we are using in the lazr packages
<flacoste> because of PyPi
<gmb> barry: Yes, thank you. I'll update the style guid to include some details as to the whys and wherefores.
<gmb> *guide
<barry> gmb: awesome, thanks
<abentley> barry: Just specify #FORMAT rst  at the top.
<barry> [ACTION] gmb to update style guides to clarify why we're standardizing on rest
<MootBot> ACTION received:  gmb to update style guides to clarify why we're standardizing on rest
<sinzui> BTW I had a merge conflict into lazr.restful because the headers in the tests are different
<barry> abentley: rock.  i will try that when i update the minutes of this meeting :)
<barry> gmb: thanks, anything else on this topic?
<gmb> Nope.
<gmb> That's all.
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Permission explosions -- flacoste
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Permission explosions -- flacoste
<flacoste> ok
<flacoste> this is a reminder
<flacoste> we should try to minimize the number of special permissions
<flacoste> so in reviews, everytime you see somebody define a new permission
<flacoste> you should ask why one of the regular one isn't used
<flacoste> the model is
<flacoste> View -> Append -> Edit -> Admin
<flacoste> there is also the Moderate permission which sits above Append at the level of Edit
<flacoste> those are our core permissions
<flacoste> now, if you look at permissions.zcml, you'll see that there are a lot of other special permissions
<flacoste> sometimes these are unvoidable, but many times they are not
<flacoste> for example, the ProjectReview special permission was introduced recentely
<flacoste> i think there is no reason why launchpad.Moderate couldn't have been used there
<flacoste> so as reviewer, be though on the introduction of new permission
<barry> flacoste: do we have any plans to do an audit and clean up of those special permissions?
<bac> flacoste: i'll follow up with you to clean that one up
<flacoste> yeah, i think we'll need to do an audit at some point and see if we can remove some of those
<flacoste> but starting with a lock-down will make the audit easier :-)
<barry> flacoste: cool
<flacoste> i'll update the reviewers checklist with this reminder
<flacoste> not sure if that page is still checked often though
<barry> flacoste: also, what is the root cause for adding new special permissions?  is it because we don't (as a group) have a good understanding of how the existing permissions work?
<flacoste> some of that
<flacoste> but also, the way permissions are mapped to roles is kind of ad-hoc
<flacoste> (through the IAuthorization interface)
<flacoste> you have to inspect code to understand who get to do what
<flacoste> where
<barry> flacoste: which isn't really feasible when you're working out a new feature
<mars> flacoste, so, would centralizing the permissions and capabilities of each make them easier to use?
<flacoste> they are already kind of centralised
<flacoste> in one file
<flacoste> but that's not the way things work
<flacoste> permission are granted on a per-context level
<flacoste> that's why it's possible to not define new ones
<flacoste> but reuse the semantics of existing ones
<flacoste> for example, i think the Moderate permission is really only defined on the Question object
<flacoste> which means it's easy to reuse the semantic for project review
<barry> flacoste: maybe a brief overview (largely what you wrote above) would be useful in the dev wiki?  could you add that when you update the reviewer docs?
<flacoste> sure
<barry> flacoste: thanks!
<barry> [ACTION] flacoste to update reviewer docs and dev wiki re: permission implosion
<MootBot> ACTION received:  flacoste to update reviewer docs and dev wiki re: permission implosion
<flacoste> explosion!
<flacoste> proliferation
<flacoste> whatever
<flacoste> eot
<barry> :)
<barry> flacoste: thanks, great topic
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<barry> okay, the floor is open, does anybody have anything else?
<intellectronica> i wanted to talk briefly about generating js
<barry> intellectronica: go ahead
<intellectronica> from time to time you'll need to generate javascript code and values to embed in a page
<intellectronica> say, when you want to initialise a widget or call a function using values you have when you render the page
<intellectronica> two important things to remember:
<intellectronica> 1. avoid using zpt for doing that. it's clumsy and hard to maintain. do the work in the view code in python, expose it as a property and include it in the template
<intellectronica> 2. always use simplejson to serialize python values into javascript code. it's so easy to do, and you have no chance of getting better result by preparing the string yourself
<intellectronica> that's it
<barry> intellectronica: thanks very much.  i learned this lesson the hard way (and thanks for your patch :)
<mars> intellectronica, is there a specific pattern we have to follow to get the <script> tag and it's contents in there from the view?  Because zpt tries to "help" with script tags...
<sinzui> I am tempted to try a 3rd way, the view reads the initialization script, adds the setup values and exposes it as a property so that the JS is not in the python
<noodles775> sinzui: +1
<intellectronica> mars: <script tal:content="structure view/js_code" /> should do the trick, i think
<barry> sinzui: i'm not sure i understand, can you clarify?
<intellectronica> sinzui: please explain more. i don't understand
<sinzui> I am hesitant to start this because I want to ensure there are sane values in the initialization script for YUI-test
<noodles775> I'm finding it hard to see a case where you'd need to generate js, rather than the js initialising from classes/content on the page (but just point me where)
<barry> sinzui: if you'd like to defer to next week or the ml, that's cool
<intellectronica> noodles775: yes, that's another way to do that. still you have to put these values in the page
<noodles775> intellectronica: yes, but that can be done semantically (so the page represents the state that the JS initialises from)
<sinzui> intellectronica: I will follow up on the list. I just want the keep js and python and html separated.
<intellectronica> noodles775: i don't understand. i think you guys are ahead of me
<intellectronica> sinzui: cool, i look forward
<barry> sinzui: it's the intersection of those three axes of evil where things get interesting
<noodles775> intellectronica: no, I probably just haven't seen an example where it's required. I'll watch for the mailing list discussion too :)
<sinzui> interesting? you mean "knives out".
<mars> sinzui, I would love to see a more in-depth statement of the problem, issues, solution, and how it might address them on the list
<barry> :)
<barry> sinzui:  thanks.  we have 3 minutes left so moving that to the ml would be great
<barry> any last minute items?  otherwise, we're done
<barry> 5
<barry> 4
<barry> 3
<barry> 2
<barry> 1
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:44.
<barry> thanks everyone, great meeting today
<abentley> barry: Thanks!
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:27. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:27.
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:30. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> jml, thumper, mwhudson ping
<jml> hi
<mwhudson> hi!
<thumper> jo
<barry> how are y'all doing?  earthquake + tsunami didn't bother you did it?
<thumper> didn't even feel it
<mwhudson> given the magnitude it seems to have caused amazingly little damage
<mwhudson> and only a baby tsunami
<barry> good to hear!
<barry> i had a friend from pittsburgh who moved to san fran describe his first earthquake
<barry> said, "they always tell you never run outside".  when it first hit, he said he found himself outside before he even knew what was going on ;)
<mwhudson> (the epicentre really is in the ass-end of nowhere too, that helps)
<jml> the epicentre is in Palmy? :P
<mwhudson> hah
<barry> inside joke? :)
<barry> anyway...
<mwhudson> i live in palmy
<barry> oh :)
<mwhudson> it's not the most exciting place in the universe
<mwhudson> indeed, anyway...
<barry> do you guys have burning issues, or do you want me to start with a review of ameu?
<mwhudson> review of ameu sounds good
<jml> review please
<jml> all issues have been safely coated in asbestos
<barry> lessee...
<barry> deryck brought up an issue from a review about only loading javascript files in devmode, since in prod they're always included in launchpad.js
<barry> he'll write about that in the js wiki page
<barry> gmb brought up a question about doctest format, moin or rest, but since you guys all hate doctests, i guess that one doesn't matter :)
<mwhudson> well
<mwhudson> if our documentation is going to be written in some markup
<mwhudson> it would be nice if this was used somehow
<barry> mwhudson: we're rest all the way baby!
<mwhudson> i don't really have an opinion on moin vs rest, pick one and stick to it though
<barry> but existing doctests can be updated as we go
<barry> definitely rest, for a host of reasons outlined in the detailed minutes
<barry> gmb will update the relevant wiki pages
<mwhudson> if we setup a sphinx-y type thing somewhere and actually use it, it might encourage us to make our doctests better documentation
<mwhudson> (gasp!)
<barry> i've also filed an rt to get our dev wiki to support rest
<barry> mwhudson: +1 is not plussy enough
<jml> barry, if Launchpad gets a wiki, do you anticipate *it* supporting rest?
<barry> jml: i do
<barry> at least
<thumper> we're going to hand craft a wiki aren't we?
<thumper> I thought we were going to build one on bzrlib
<barry> thumper: that's been on the wishlist for at least 2 years
<jml> like someone has already done with Hg :(
<thumper> right
<barry> :(
<jml> gosh that was disappointing watching that lightning talk at europython and thinking "we've had this idea for at least two years now"
<jml> anyway
<barry> last review item: flacoste brought up the issue of "permission explosion", the tendency to create too many special permissions
<barry> instead of reusing the core ones
<thumper> barry: for example?
<barry> thumper: let me get my notes...
<jml> barry, presumably flacoste noticed this trend by inspecting our highly auditable zcml or perhaps looking at a permission control panel? :P
<barry> Jul 15 10:23:44 <flacoste>	we should try to minimize the number of special permissions
<barry> Jul 15 10:23:59 <flacoste>	so in reviews, everytime you see somebody define a new permission
<barry> Jul 15 10:24:07 <flacoste>	you should ask why one of the regular one isn't used
<barry> Jul 15 10:24:12 <flacoste>	the model is
<barry> Jul 15 10:24:22 <flacoste>	View -> Append -> Edit -> Admin
<barry> Jul 15 10:24:41 <flacoste>	there is also the Moderate permission which sits above Append at the level of Edit
<jml> (sorry, I think I prepared the coffee extra bitter this morning).
<barry> Jul 15 10:24:52 <flacoste>	those are our core permissions
<barry> Jul 15 10:25:19 <flacoste>	now, if you look at permissions.zcml, you'll see that there are a lot of other special permissions
<barry> Jul 15 10:25:38 <flacoste>	sometimes these are unvoidable, but many times they are not
<barry> Jul 15 10:25:57 <flacoste>	for example, the ProjectReview special permission was introduced recentely
<barry> Jul 15 10:26:07 <flacoste>	i think there is no reason why launchpad.Moderate couldn't have been used there
<barry> Jul 15 10:26:28 <flacoste>	so as reviewer, be though on the introduction of new permission
<thumper> we have an Append permission?
<jml> yeah.
<thumper> huh
<thumper> didn't know that
<mwhudson> i was more or less aware of this point
<barry> flacoste will update the relevant wiki pages with details
<jml> neither did I.
<jml> barry, and how would we *find* the relevant wiki pages?
<mwhudson> i haven't reviewed or written any code to do with permissions in ages though
<barry> jml: they should be on the dev wiki <wink>
<jml> well that narrows it down :\
<barry> foundations also wants to audit and simplify our permissions
<barry> jml: yeah
<barry> anyway, that's all i have from ameu.  what's on your mind?
<mwhudson> well at least there's less obsolete crap on the dev wiki than launchpad.c.c
<jml> yeah. that's a very good thing.
<thumper> I don't have anything just now
<mwhudson> nothing in particular
<thumper> apart from a general ORM annoyance
<barry> we need some interns to garden our wikis :)
<thumper> w.r.t. permissions
<jml> nothing from me, apart from general build process annoyance :)
<mwhudson> the usual trepidation about how we're all supposed to be focused on a not-yet designed ui
<jml> barry, with respect, no.
<barry> jml: you don't like interns?
<jml> barry, we need a little bit of bootstrapping to put some kind of structure in place, and we need developers to be dissatisfied with simply getting an answer to their question.
<barry> jml: yeah.  but wiki editing is pretty low on people's list of things to do
<mwhudson> there's something about wiki editing that always infuriates me
<jml> barry, it's not wiki editing, it's working in a distributed team.
<mwhudson> "edit this section" like media wiki would help, i think
<barry> mwhudson: the fact that textarea sucks?
<mwhudson> barry: partly yeah
<jml> mwhudson, +1
<barry> that would be nice.  it's all text does make things a bit better (not great though)
<barry> well, that's all i have anyway
<jml> likewise.
<mwhudson> if we end up with sphinx for our documentation, we should use that more and the wiki less maybe>
<mwhudson> ?
<mwhudson> but enough directionless rambling on this topic
 * mwhudson is done
<barry> mwhudson:  possibly.  i'm digging sphinx a lot lately
<barry> cool.  i guess we're done.  thanks guys
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:52.
<jml> thanks barry
#launchpad-meeting 2009-07-16
<matsubara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is matsubara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<matsubara> Welcome to this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating the resolution of specific Launchpad bugs and issues.
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<sinzui> me
<henninge> me
<intellectronica> me
<matsubara> herb, rockstar, hi
<matsubara> bigjools, hi
<rockstar> Ni!
<bigjools> me
<herb> me
<flacoste> me
<sinzui> ecky-ecky-ecky-ptang-zoop-boing-bigwam-ohhh
<matsubara> lol
<matsubara> ok, stub can join in later
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<matsubara>  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>  * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<matsubara>  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<matsubara>  * DBA report (stub)
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>  * flacoste to take a look and triage bug 397224 and will move bug 373837 to 2.2.7 and see if it's possible to fix
<matsubara>  * Ursinha to file a bug about OOPS-1285J112 and tell flacoste
<matsubara>    * filed bug 397485
<matsubara>  * Ursinha to watch the lang-pack-exporter script and poke henninge if it fails again
<matsubara>    * It failed, but danilo noticed that the warning was sent because actually the script wasn't scheduled to run, as per his email to lp list.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 397224 in launchpad-foundations "TraversalError in person page accessing openid_identity_url" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/397224
<matsubara>  * Ursinha to check if all accounts requesting fix on feedback@ were fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 373837 in launchpad-foundations "DisconnectionError should log a soft OOPS" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/373837
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1285J112
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 397485 in launchpad-foundations "DisconnectionError in +login-register" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/397485
<flacoste> so i looked at both
<matsubara> thanks flacoste
<stub> me
<matsubara> [action] * Ursinha to check if all accounts requesting fix on feedback@ were fixed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  * Ursinha to check if all accounts requesting fix on feedback@ were fixed
<flacoste> and we won't be able to fix any of them this cycle
<matsubara> flacoste, can you set status/importance 397224
<matsubara> ?
<flacoste> ok
<matsubara> thanks
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<matsubara> two bugs for soyuz and two for code
<matsubara> rockstar, can you schedule a fix for bug 400020?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 400020 in launchpad-code "TraversalError: (None, 'bzr_identity') in Product:revisions.atom" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/400020
<matsubara> rockstar, will OOPS-1291EC577 be fixed by the fix for 371469 or should I report another bug?
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1291EC577
<rockstar> matsubara, thumper acked it last night, I'll chase.
<matsubara> bigjools, bug 400269 and bug 393625
<matsubara> thanks rockstar
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 400269 in soyuz "OOPS accessing +copy-packages if you don't have permissions" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/400269
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 393625 in soyuz "update-pkgcache using too much memory on staging" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/393625
<matsubara> bigjools, isn't 393625 gonna bite us in production?
<bigjools> no
<herb> why not?
<bigjools> we'll fix the OOPS but very few people have permission to do that operation
<matsubara> bigjools, I just filed 400269, can you triage it accordingly? It doesn't look like very important though, since you can only get to that URL manually or following a link
<bigjools> should get it done for 2.2.7
<bigjools> right, the URL has to be hand-hacked
<bigjools> we don't link to it from anywhere
<bigjools> the other bug is waiting on a response to stub's question
<matsubara> bigjools, yes, the OOPS I added to the report has the referrer from a mailing list. someone posted that
<bigjools> (we'll fix that oops by redirecting away from the page so you can never get to it)
<matsubara> bigjools, shouldn't it raise an Forbidden error or something like that?
<bigjools> herb, could you check the memory usage for update-pkgcache in production and respond to the bug please
<bigjools> matsubara: no, the page simply should not exist for anyone
<herb> bigjools: will do.
<bigjools> thanks herb
<matsubara> bigjools, ok
<matsubara> thanks bigjools
<bigjools> matsubara: it's trying to render a PPA page using the contents of the main archive
<bigjools> np
<matsubara> we have 3 critical bugs, all fix committed
<matsubara> and we have 3 failing scripts: updatebranches, language-pack-exporter and productreleasefinder
<matsubara> language-pack-exporter was already sorted by danilos
<matsubara> I think sinzui fixed the productreleasefinder one already, just need to be released
<sinzui> matsubara: productreleasefinder is failed to run, not failed during execution I think
<matsubara> rockstar, can you check why updatebranches failed?
<sinzui> I am testing a a super fix today that will address most of the errors reported in the prf log
<matsubara> great, thanks sinzui
<matsubara> rockstar, ?
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to chase rockstart about failure on updatebranches script
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to chase rockstart about failure on updatebranches script
<matsubara> let's move on
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<herb> 2009-07-10 - Rolled out a bug fix to production and edge.
<herb> There aren't any cherry picks or queries awaiting approval.
<herb> Any update on bug #287304? That now accounts for the majority of the incidents we encounter.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287304 in launchpad-foundations "App Servers: Remove need for restart on logrotation" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287304
<rockstar> matsubara, was chasing...
<stub> Nobody has looked into that yet - it isn't assigned or scheduled.
<rockstar> matsubara, I know there had been problems with it.
<matsubara> rockstar, all right, let me know what you find out after the meeting and I'll file a bug and get that scheduled
<herb> stub: it would make 3 LOSAs very happy if it were at least assigned. :)
<matsubara> rockstar, thanks
<stub> flacoste: One for me?
<herb> anyway. that's it from us. otherwise it's been a quiet week.
<flacoste> stub: yes, it could well be, but after the load testing tool is ready
<flacoste> herb: like i said in an email, in August, i want us to focus on that bug and the other ones affecting our deployment
<herb> flacoste: excellent
<matsubara> thanks stub, herb, flacoste
<matsubara> moving on
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * DBA report (stub)
<stub> Person trimming is so slow it is impractical to QA it on staging, so we will just run on production. Foreign key constraints will protect us from removing anything actually linked so we shouldn't be able to cause any damage.
<stub> Nothing else to report.
<stub> (that I can think of)
<matsubara> ok, thanks stub
<matsubara> I think that's all for today.
<matsubara> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<matsubara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:23.
<intellectronica> thanks matsubara
<herb> thanks everyone
<flacoste> thanks
#launchpad-meeting 2009-07-18
<Elchileno74> hello?
#launchpad-meeting 2010-07-19
<Ursinha> OOPS-1544A949
<ubot5> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1544A949
#launchpad-meeting 2010-07-21
<bac> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is bac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<abentley> me
<bac> here?
<sinzui> me
<deryck> me
<jtv> me
<bac> danilo sends regrets
<bac> as does noodles
<rinze> me
<jtv> abel is temporarily unavailable
<bac> bigjools: ping
<bigjools> me
<bac> gmb is unavailable i think?
<deryck> yes, he is.
<bac> mars, gary, leonardr: ping
<gary_poster> sorry on call but will follow
<bac> hi flacoste
<flacoste> me
<flacoste> hi
<bac> [topic] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<bac> * Roll call
<bac>  * Agenda
<bac>  * Outstanding actions
<bac>  * New topics
<bac>  * Peanut gallery
<bac> there is not anything on the agenda today so we may be able to make this very brief.
<bac> the only outstanding action is the one inherited by lifeless regarding lp.coop and lp.services.  i mentioned it to him in an email last week but did not follow up in person.  so it'll stay on.
<bac> does anyone have any other items to discuss?
 * bac looks at +activereviews
 * deryck hides
 * bac sees a few approved but unlanded branches.
<bac> rinze: can you comment on https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~jelmer/launchpad/oops-on-pool-overwrite-error/+merge/23328
<ubot5> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=on
<bac> approved back in april
<rinze> bac: It was a drive-by fix that I did back then that failed with a strange test isolation problem that I didn't manage to nail down.
<bac> rinze: so are you abandoning it?
<jtv> orbital junk
<jtv> ?
<rinze> bac: I intend to, we discussed it earlier and decided it wasn't worthwile spending more time on. Perhaps it will be easier to debug once the improvements to handling OOPSes in the testsuite that Tim brought up on the mailing list earlier land.
<rinze> I'll mark it as abandoned for now, we can always dig it up again later.
<bac> rinze: ok
<bac> jtv: are you doing reviews today?
<jtv> bac: no, I'm sprintingâbut abel did grab me for one review
<bac> jtv: ah, ok, didn't know you are sprinting.  staying warm i hope.
<jtv> quite
<bac> i'll try to do some today.  we're getting a number of pending and the OCR pool is hit pretty hard the rest of the week
<bac> so the floor is open for new topics
<bac> guess there are none so we can end really early.
<bigjools> what happened to the doctest definition?
<bac> if you have some spare cycles this week please consider grabbing a branch off of +activereviews
<adeuring> me
<bac> bigjools: i updated the wiki page and had discussions with sinzui and abentley.
<bigjools> oh cool, which page?
 * bac looks
<bigjools> I didn't see any email about it, unless it got caught with spam
<bac> bigjools: https://dev.launchpad.net/TestsStyleGuide
<bigjools> cheers
<bac> bigjools: the short of it is we have a lot of doctests that are doing way too much
<bac> registry page tests in particular.  a lot of that testing should be functional testing but it is tech debt to get them cleaned up
<bigjools> no need to tell me that, I work in soyuz code :/
<bac> browser tests, in particular
<bac> so i've tried to express that in my changes to that wiki page
<bigjools> I'm going to re-read it, thanks
<bac> and we can discuss in the future, though it'll be preaching to the choir, i think
<bac> anything else?
<bac> ok, thanks.
<bac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:17.
<rinze> thanks bac
<bac> hey thumper and rockstar
<thumper> hi bac
<thumper> bac: rockstar is still in prague
<bac> hi thumper.  nothing much happened in the euro meeting today so unless you have something i suggest we skip it
<thumper> skip it is my vote
<mwhudson> hooray for skipping
#launchpad-meeting 2010-07-23
<gltchez> Hey
