#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-03
<macinnisrr> Hi! My name is Dick MacInnis, and I have been working on an Ubuntu based multimedia distro much like ubuntustudio. My distro is called "Dream" and I am trying to keep it as close to stock Ubuntu as possible, while also including the most up to date versions of applications.  I'm wondering about a couple things: 1) are there plans for an rt-pae kernel? 2) has anyone had luck making plymouth work properly with the 2.6
<macinnisrr> 4) If I make such a kernel on my own, would you be interested in including it? I am quite good at binary packaging. I can compile/troubleshoot source code easily enough. The problem is I have no experience making source packages (which is why I host my own repo as opposed to using launchpad).
<holstein> macinnisrr: hey
<holstein> that sounds like an awesome project
<holstein> are there links to anything yet?
<macinnisrr> actually you can add this line to your apt sources "deb http://www.dickmacinnis.com/dream lucid main universe multiverse non-free". Once you've done that you can download Ardour 2.8.7,  new calf lv2 plugins, autotalent (an autotune-type plugin, ladspa-trigger, matching gtk themes (that go with the custom themes I have installed for Ardour), an rt-pae kernel (although it is based on 2.6.31 so only the text plymouth s
<macinnisrr> I'm working on a new kernel as we speak, and should have an iso ready in a few days.
<holstein> would you mind to share that over at #opensourcemusicians ?
<holstein> the PPA ?
<macinnisrr> absolutely, although I don't have it gpg signed yet (so it's not a proper ppa, I'm not sure what else I might need to do to make it so, but I'm working on it). Feel free to send out a link to whoever you want, although keep in mind that I would consider all of my packages beta at least for a couple weeks (most everything has been tested here on six different machines, and the base is Ubuntu, so blame them if major s
<holstein> macinnisrr: i'll save that info you just dropped
<macinnisrr> I also forgot to mention one of the coolest packages, which is my custom pulseaudio-module-jack package. It's a dropin replacement for the original, but contains a script to easily connect all system audio to jack. Just fire up jack and issue the "pulsejack" command. If you do a fresh install with my custom qjackctl package, this will happen automatically for all users
<holstein> im not really 'on the team' so to speak
<holstein> im just hanging out, trying to figure out what i can do
<macinnisrr> holstien: sweet. The more people who try this out, the more feedback I can get, and the more I can improve it.
<holstein> BUT the folks at #opensourcemusicians will test
<holstein> and talk it up
<macinnisrr> holstein: What are you interested in helping with? Maybe I could use your expertise....
<holstein> thats the issue really
<holstein> im a musician
<holstein> and im very interested in helping
<holstein> BUT i have no coding skills
<holstein> im not really a newb
<holstein> but im still learning
<macinnisrr> holstein: I was in the same boat as you, but during Karmic's cycle I got tired of waiting for new Ardour packages so I started compiling. Then I got annoyed compiling for all my machines, so I started packaging. Then I thought, why not make a distro?
<macinnisrr> so I started reading...
<holstein> awesome
<holstein> well, im not quite there yet
<scott-work> persia, are you around for a question or two?
<scott-work> interesting view on the staid and conventional desktop -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/03/google_acquires_bumptop/
<scott-work> wish troy was here to see that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-04
<rlameiro> ScottL: ping
<rlameiro> I took the liberty to change the ubuntustudio wiki to reflect the new releas
<rlameiro> *release/   I hope its ok.
<ScottL> TheMuso, debian squeeze has rakarrack 0.4.2 while ubuntu has 0.3.0
<ScottL> if i do a sync request doesn't that request for the upcoming (development) version?  i.e. maveric?
<ScottL> how would i get the update into lucid?
<ScottL> just file a bug with a patch?
<ScottL> sorry if i'm being dense (i probably am) i've been trying to ask persia for a couple of days rather than bug you
 * persia hasn't seen the question: only "are you around" when I wasn't.
<persia> !sru
<ubottu> Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<persia> Basically, just create a tested minimal targeted patch, and follow that procedure.
<persia> Ph, given context, it's not likely to happen (large upstream version change).  You'd do better to get it into maverick, and then do a lucid-backport.
<ScottL> groovy!  hiya persia
<ScottL> i was looking at outdated on http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html#outdatedinB
<ScottL> i had set a calendar reminder about them to sync (or apparently sru) but it looks like sync is the way and i know how to do that
<ScottL> two more questions though if you don't mind
<persia> Just ask :)
<ScottL> how do i approach getting outdatedandlocalb synced as well?  if ubuntu changes are picked up in debian i can just sync, correct?
<ScottL> (oops, i guess three questions now)
<ScottL> but if there are changes i should file a bug with a patch?
<ScottL> s/changes/changes still required
<persia> !merge
<ubottu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging
<persia> So, targetting maverick, and looking at the mdt output.
<ScottL> "mdt output" ?
<persia> "Not in squeeze" needs a reason why, or should be gotten into Debian.
<persia> mdt -> multidistrotools
<ScottL> side question (yikes, another one!), did you get my email where i responded to your critique, specifically about "acting lead"?
<ScottL> mdt, gotcha
<persia> I get email when people tell me they sent it :)  I'll go dig it up.
<persia> "same version" means nothing to do
<persia> "same version + local changes" means the changes should be reviewed, patches sent to Debian, etc.  If there is stuff that isn't acceptable to Debian, merge it.  If there isn't, then it's better to sync some future Debian version.
<persia> "same version by rebuilt" can be ignored
<persia> "outdated in maverick" ought get handled by autosync once that's enabled.  If something fails to autosync, then it's worth investigating more.
<persia> "outdated + local changes" means doing a merge and *then* processing as "same version + local changes".
<persia> (simply because one needs to validate that the changes still apply, etc.).
<persia> Sometimes one gets lucky with "outdated in maverick" and discovers a sync opportunity.
<persia> "Not in Maverick" can be ignored: I asked for mscore removal because musecore replaces it.
<ScottL> but roughly how soon can we actually sync?  the schedule shows the toolchain uploaded on may 6
<persia> (although sometimes one wants to hunt down *why* it's not present)
<persia> You can file sync bugs now, if you like.
<persia> Looks like the archive is frozen, and all uploads need manual approval (based on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text= )
<persia> But some stuff is already being uploaded :)
<ScottL> i will start tomorrow night, i want to use the requestsync from ubuntu-dev-tools instead of doing them by hand (at lunch)
<persia> And I see a bundle of stuff in the sync queue (although please don't request a sync *except* to overwrite a merge, as autosync will be enabled soonish)
<ScottL> rakarrack as an example -> for lucid it was an autosync, for maverick it will require a sync request, correct?
<persia> generally the sequence is: archive enable (frozen), toolchain rebuilds, archive open, import the SRU candidates, start accepting other uploads, autosync.
<persia> No.
<persia> Because there's no Ubuntu-specific patch, it will autosync once the autosync is turned on.
<ScottL> sorry, i'm slow tonight, been a long, long day and i'm tired :(  but i wanted to get somethings lined out
<persia> Whereas e.g. gimp will need investigation.
<ScottL> oh, okay, and i now see above where you said "outdated in maverick", sorry 'bout that
<ScottL> but syncing to maverick and then backporting to lucid will take some time, perhaps a month?
<persia> Should be doable in a week under normal circumstances.  At this point in the cycle, probably a minimum of 3 weeks.
<ScottL> thanks perisa
<ScottL> last question, do you think you might add a comment or endorsement to abogani's ppu application?
<persia> Unless I've been working with someone *very* closely, I don't do that: I sit on the board that receives those applications, which makes me feel uncomfortable making such an endorsement to the board except in cases where I'm the overwhelmingly most frequent sponsor.  That said, in my role as administrator of the sponsors team, I spend a lot of time trying to get others to sponsor stuff, so am rarely someone's regular sponsor.
<ScottL_> that's understandable, i just didn't want people to overlook it or forget if they were planning on it
 * ScottL_ is going to bed
<quadrispro> hi guys
<stochastic> hey
<astraljava> o/
<scott-work> rlameiro: thanks for changing the wiki!
<rlameiro> ohh
<rlameiro> np, but the same guy ointed at 2 more things
<rlameiro> one of them i cant change, is on the ubuntustudio.org webpage (the iso size one) and the other is the full list of packages of this version
<scott-work> i was going to ask stochastic about updating the website for the first
<scott-work> and email the guy back for the second one
<scott-work> but i don't think i'll get to it till later this week (there's another email i want to address first)
<rlameiro> i can change it, if i have the package list i can try to make it
<scott-work> i was going to point him to the help.ubuntu.com pages
<scott-work> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio being one
<rlameiro> I just now found that Falktx is portuguese, and looking at the maps is not too far away from me, i sended him a PM on the ubuntuforums
<scott-work> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/Applications
<rlameiro> maybe i can meet him
<scott-work> and the last one to specifically point him towards
<scott-work> rlameiro: where do you live, i was thinking it was close to Spain for some reason (and i hope i didn't offend you with the question)
<rlameiro> Portugal, next to Spain
<rlameiro> but near the Ocean
<rlameiro> i live in two cities, depends the day, Porto and Aveiro
<rlameiro> scott-work: well the latter link is great
<rlameiro> maybe the main US wiki should point at it
<scott-work> i've tried to keep it up to date
<scott-work> we probably need to address the help. vs wiki. pages
<rlameiro> yea
<rlameiro> can  I link to it?
<rlameiro> or leave it like that?
<rlameiro> we could probably duplicate the page, one on the hep and other on the US wiki
<rlameiro> but its duplicate effort
<scott-work> i'm not sure how to proceed with it right now, it's probably something for an upcoming meeting
<rlameiro> yea
<rlameiro> about the meetings, maybe there is a need to schedule one, at least to debate the US focus, so people can work, and gather information and man power to make it work
<scott-work> by this weekend i'll schedule one
<rlameiro> do you have some weekday in mind?
<rlameiro> Sunday?? 15:00 GMT/UTC
<scott-work> i haven't given it thought yet, but i'm up for about anytime
<scott-work> is that the usual time we had before?
<rlameiro> stochastic: ping
<rlameiro> stochastic did schedules for the meetings, maybe he have a good idea on the best timings and days
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-05
<persia> ScottL: You were looking at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html earlier: it's just been refreshed to match the TB decision from the last meeting, and should now be an accurate representation of maverick.
<ScottL_> super cool, thanks persia
<persia> So I think we have 6 packages to get into Debian, 25 to resync with debian-multimedia, and 19 to merge.
<persia> mscore *should* drop from Debian at some point.
<rlameiro> hi there
<rlameiro> ScottL: are you there?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-06
<ScottL> rlameiro, hi, i'm here
<ScottL> just cooking dinner
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> ScottL: when you have some time ping me
<ScottL> but go ahead if you have a question, i'm just going back an forth
<rlameiro> i just founf FalkTX is from Portugal
<rlameiro> I was speaking with him, to see if he is interested in help closely the team
<ScottL> yeah, you said you might go visit him, that's pretty cool
<rlameiro> well, he also makes an audio live cd 
<rlameiro> so, maybe he could be the  guy to do it :D
<ScottL> huh, that's pretty interesting, i'd be curious to see how well it tests
<ScottL> does he have it available to people to download?
<rlameiro> yes
<rlameiro> he will be releasing it shortly
<rlameiro> its based on ubuntu 10.04
<rlameiro> ScottL: https://launchpad.net/kxstudio
<rlameiro> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/
<ScottL> i'm not against a live cd but it would need to serviceable fulfill a need
<ScottL> but i am interested to see how it performs
<ScottL> s/serviceable/serviceably
<rlameiro> yeah
<rlameiro> but the objective isnt more the live
<rlameiro> but he packages a lot of software
<rlameiro> if he could make it for ubuntu MOTU
<rlameiro> it would be great
<rlameiro> the liveCD/DVD is a bonus :D
<rlameiro> also he already implemented jack2
<rlameiro> and a all jackified system
<rlameiro> ScottL: well, it seems that he already released it
<rlameiro> today :D
<rlameiro> i will download it and test it
<ScottL> sorry, was on phone call
<rlameiro> np
<ScottL> The.muso is already working on jack2 with the debain archives
<ScottL> building the package and installing it is not all that's involved, getting it into the archives is essential
<rlameiro> yea, i know
<ScottL> that's funny that he released it today :)
<rlameiro> but if it make to motu would be great
<ScottL> i'll download it tonight
<ScottL> does he want to be MOTU?
<rlameiro> well, i dont know
<rlameiro> i need to catch him on msn
<ScottL> lol, yeah, that might be good to know first ;)
<rlameiro> yea ;P
<ScottL> stochastic has tried to get faltx to help the dev team already but he didn't really seem to committed
<rlameiro> AFAIK, he doesnt have internet at home, he uses internet on a frinds house
<rlameiro> he also doesnt use IRC...
<rlameiro> kinda weird
<rlameiro> but, maybe he could do some stuff
<ScottL> but i *really* do want to see what the live CD will do in terms of performance
<rlameiro> If you use it from a usb flash drive, it will be faster of course
<ScottL> if he could document his process that would be good also
<ScottL> it looks like it might be based on KDE from the documentation on sourceforge
<rlameiro> it is based on KDE
 * abogani have just found a lot of interesting video/slides at http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2010/?page=program I really suggest you to take a look! :-)
<rlameiro> ScottL: ping
<ScottL> rlameiro, yes?
<rlameiro> about yesterday conersation about falktx wanting to be motu or not, i found this falktx's post at linuxmusicians.com
<rlameiro> At first I started packaging some basic stuff, then sent it to REVU (Ubuntu packages "reviewing" system, for non-official Ubuntu devs like me)
<rlameiro> But it takes a long time to get a package accepted, and we are only 3 months away (and some days) from the final release...
<rlameiro> So I decided to create a PPA and build the packages there.
<rlameiro> The PPA location is: https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/lucid/
<rlameiro> ScottL, it seems that at least he wanted to try that the packages become "official"
<ScottL> stochastic got him to submit the packages but then no one (including me :( ) followed up on them in REVU
<ScottL> faltx has some incredible talents
<ScottL> it would be great if we could harness them effectively
<rlameiro> i am looking revu now
<persia> He has been around before, but yeah, he needs a helping hand to get really involved.
<persia> He seems good, so it's probably mostly a matter of building enough history of work on packages that he can be granted upload rights.
<jussi> Lads, does anyone want to take over management of the ML? it could do with some custom filters to stop the spam a bit better and a little love, which I just dont have time to do. I can continue to run listadmin on a regular basis, but other than that I dont really have time. 
<jussi> ScottL: stochastic astraljava ^^
<rexbron> hey jussi
<jussi> oh hai rexbron
<scott-work> jussi: what is typically involved in maintaining the mailing list?  I'm certainly interested
<jussi> scott-work: basically maintaining some filters for spam, checking listadmin daily, not too much really. just needs someone to get inthere and weeed out some stuff. 
<scott-work> jussi: if you can't get stochastic or astraljava to do it then I will
<jussi> scott-work: it can have any amount of people, so perhaps it worth passing out the passwords to a few people.
<scott-work> jussi: good point, then count me in :)
 * persia suggests it's worth passing out the passwords to only a few *select* people (although more is often better, as long as it's the right more)
<jussi> persia: I agree, but still, more than one
<persia> Yes :)
<scott-work> persia: i sent an email to cory per our discussion the other day, you were cc'd on it
<persia> Heh.  You've obviously come to understand how I read email :)
<scott-work> heh, i was just typing that
<scott-work> but i just wanted to give you a courtesy notice about it
<scott-work> ach, work is crazy last week and this week, probably next week as well :(
<scott-work> I just got my O'Reilly "Learning Python" 4th edition book, yay!
<stochastic> jussi, I'm afraid I really don't know much about mailing list moderation
<scott-work> hi stochastic !
<stochastic> hey scott-work 
<scott-work> !sru
<ubottu> Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<stochastic> scott-work, when are we going to plan to have the next team meeting?
<stochastic> hey cory
<ckontros> ScottL: I'ma total toolbag and forgot to reply to your imortant email last week. I'll get on it. As far as the lead goes, sure. You got my +1.
<ckontros> Hi Eric.
<persia> Hey ckontros!
<ckontros> yo yo
<persia> Did you get a chance to try lucid?  Any huge condemnations other than our failure to allow anyone to configure networking?
<ckontros> Sadly, I haven't tried Lucid/Studio in months. 
<persia> Oh my.  You must be *really* busy!
<ckontros> persia: More than I care to be for sure.
<scott-work> hey, thanks ckontros, i appreciate that
<ckontros> scott-work: If there's anything "official" you need me to do, let me know.
 * persia thinks that because the channel is logged, lots of officialness already happened :)
<ckontros> ;)
<scott-work> stochastic:  do you have a preference for the next meeting?  I was hoping to have it soon
<scott-work> thanks again, cory
<ckontros> np
 * scott-work is going home, but will check IRC at home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-07
<ScottL> persia, i just read what you wrote about falktx
<ScottL> having upload rights coupled with his dedication to audio applications could be a huge boon for Studio
<ScottL> even if he doesn't join the team
<rlameiro> ScottL: but i think he is part of the team
<rlameiro> at least on launchpad
<persia> I think he joined the team at some point
<persia> But we ended up not giving him the support he needed to succeed within the team :(
<rlameiro> https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j
<ScottL> do you mean the ubuntustudio team?  or the -dev team?
<persia> Yes?
<persia> I'm not sure we're large enough to have meaningful distinctions.
<ScottL> ah, okay
<persia> We all do some bug work, we all do some testing, many of us fiddle with PPAs or backport, etc.
<ScottL> hopefully we can reengage him then :)
 * ScottL is going outside to watch kids while swimming
<persia> That would be good, but we'll need to not drop the ball when he uploads improvements :)
<ScottL> persia, you mean uploading to REVU?
<persia> Or attaching good patches to bugs, etc. yeah.
<ScottL> gotcha
<persia> nedko was working with us fairly closely for a while, but we couldn't keep up with him, and he's now making the world better upstream.
<jussi> morning all
<persia> jussi: Backscroll has important data :)
<persia> (about 8 hours back)
<rlameiro> ScottL: well, the new info about jack using a different file for priority setting is already spreading http://puredata.info/docs/tutorials/HowToRunPDWithRealtimePriorityInUbuntu
<scott-work> stochastic: did you have a preference for a meeting time? 
<scott-work> recently, the meetings have been on the 2nd Sunday of the month, but this one is Mother's Day, which obviously may not be good for many people
<scott-work> I would suggest we try for the following weekend and the accustomed time:  Sunday, May 15th @ 19:00 UTC
<scott-work> how does that sound?
<astraljava> Works for me.
<scott-work> astraljava: good :)   i'm really happy that you will be involved
<astraljava> scott-work: Hope I'm of usage. :)
<scott-work> i'm sure you will be
<scott-work> and if everyone does a little then we can accomplish pretty great things ;)
<astraljava> True.
<stochastic> scott-work, you mean Sunday May 16th (not 15th) at 19:00UTC - that works for me.
<scott-work> ack, you are correct stochastic
<scott-work> good deal, i'll see about setting it up (wiki and emails) unless someone else really wants to do it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-08
<jussi> ScottL: yes. I can (RE: your PM) =)
<ckontros> jussi: The naming of the channel and ML is a a visual one. And IMO, I'd leave it as-is. I hated naming the ML that way. When I set it up w/elmo he said as much but I didn't care to push the issue.
<ckontros> If there's no *technical* need to change, I'd give it a -1.
<ckontros> crimsun: Is there a way to EQ *everything* that runs through ALSA?
<ScottL> thanks jussi :) i appreciate it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-09
<ScottL> detrate, when i get a list about the website how do i get it to you?
<detrate> you can email me tyler@detrition.net
<detrate> brb have to change login mangers
<detrate> maybe some audiophiles know the answer as to why I cannot set virtual dj to "real time" process prority in windows 7
<detrate> I even found this "documentation" http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/8194/PC_Version_Technical_Support/VirtualDJ_Setup_Guide.html "DO NOT SET IT TO REAL TIME (DO NOT DO IT)"
<detrate> but no reason why
<ScottL> no idea detrate
<ScottL> did you get my emails?
<ScottL> hi abogani!
<ScottL> abogani, did you say you were working on a i386 -rt kernel or am I an idiot?
<detrate> yes I did, I haven't had time to go through them yet.  Been cleaning up my living area and helping my mother.
<abogani> ScottL: The -rt kernel ever shipped for amd64 and i386.
<abogani> Since Feisty until now i386 is always available side bye side with the amd64 one.
<ScottL> detrate, that's cool, no rush, i just wanted to make sure the email went through, go through it whenever you have a chance, it's lot! hehe
<ScottL> abogani, are you saying that both the i386 and amd64 2.6.32 kernels did NOT have -rt kernel available?
<ScottL> i thought there was at least the amd64 the kernel team was going to support
<abogani> ScottL: 2.6.32-rt never see the light neither Ubuntu nor in other distributions. Simply don't exist. You you want an -rt kernel you should choose between 2.6.31 or 2.6.33.
<abogani> s/You/If
<astraljava> 2.6.33 exists somewhere?
<ScottL> someone else had mentioned the 2.6.33 -rt kernel, i thought it was a typo, heh
<abogani> ScottL: No it isn't a typo.
<abogani> astraljava: Upstream
<astraljava> abogani: Gotcha.
<ScottL> i was talking to one of the #opensourcemusicians guys and he mentioned that the -generic kernel was performing quite nicely for him to record audio
<ScottL> i've had good experiences with it as well
<ScottL> but that aside, it's almost an unreasonable desire to have an -rt kernel, just because it's supposed to be "better"
<ScottL> never mind that other kernels might fulfill my needs quite nicely :)
<astraljava> Whoa: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=9231554#post9231554
 * astraljava makes a mental note to check the forums more often
<astraljava> oops, sorry about the link, points to a single post for nothing, just meant the thread.
<ScottL> i like trulan, he really digs into stuff and figures it out, kinda like AutoStatic
<ScottL> AND they answer forum posts quite often :)
<detrate> where's the dj chat at? Is there any place I can talk with other people who dj and learn about hardware etc? not just open-source based.
<astraljava> detrate: Talk to luisbg, he might know.
<detrate> ok
<ScottL> you might need to email him since he's not on the IRC channel very often
<detrate> that's a little ironic :-P
<ScottL> http://luisbg.blogalia.com/ is his blog with contact info
<ScottL> well, at least not on *this* channel very often, he used to be though
<astraljava> ScottL: Is the meeting affirmed on 16th?
<astraljava> s/affirmed/confirmed/g
<ScottL> astraljava, yes, i should be sending email and posting on the wiki later today
<ScottL> thanks for reminding me :)  otherwise i would have forgotten the email/wiki
<astraljava> ScottL: Oh good. :)
<detrate> damn, I think this video just convinced me to buy this controller http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2pP4FDZERE
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-02
<ScottL> ckontros, i'm around now and inside for the evening, hit me with what you need
<ScottL> holstein, that's the problem, i think only schotastic has access to the content on the website
<ScottL> holstein, other than that he would need to update the -website package
<holstein> ScottL: we need you to be able to give access to the site
<holstein> especially when we have a willing volunteer
<holstein> ckontros: o/
<holstein> i think everyone really likes the new splash screen ckontros 
<holstein> bbl...
<ScottL> holstein, we need to be clear what access we want to grant
<ScottL> if someone wants to change the structure of the site, i.e. the .php files etc then that i believe is the -website package, anyone can propose a change to that, it's open to anyone
<ScottL> if someone want to edit content, then they need to ask for it from canonical, i can't control that
<ckontros> Is the new logo used in the new splash? Screenshots? :)
<ckontros> Some tinkering: http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1209/screenshot0501201108493.jpg I found a XFWM theme that was close to the old Studio one. I'm just tinkering with it. Not gonna use it for final. I still wanna maintain the GNOME one but add a XFWM one that matches perfectly. But this is pretty much the layout for AWN Im thinking. Everything is already packaged. Just have to see how to set defaults.
<ckontros> (still not set on an icon theme)
<ckontros> ScottL: Will you prep something for planet regarding the switch to XFCE or would you rather I do it?
<ckontros> ScottL: I have also subscribed to the xubuntu-devel list to announce our move and pick their brainz.
<ckontros> Time for bed. Ill stay connected for msgs.
<ScottL> ckontros, i can do the planet post
<ScottL> it's just been a rather full weekend, but i can do it during this week
<ckontros> ScottL: I need to know what cmd you use to push to ubuntustudio-default-settings. "bzr push lp:ubuntustudio-default-settings" wont work and If I look at the code page on LP is says I cant upload. Please look into if I need some new permissions. Or maybe my push code is wrong. IDK.
<ScottL> ckontros, do you have the correct ssh key?
<ScottL>     bzr push lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> try that ckontros 
<ScottL> ckontros, when i had trouble pushing in bzr it was because i didn't have a current sshkey, i had to make a new one
<holstein> ScottL: you still up?
<holstein> i just wanted to give kokito a chance to update that information
<holstein> we keep getting email list comments
<holstein> and i think we are the last to not have our site updated
<holstein> for 11.04
<ScottL> holstein, kokito cannot have access to the website at this point
<ScottL> holstein, he will need to contact canonical to be given access
<ScottL> holstein, the same method that i am attempting to go through
<holstein> OH
<holstein> ScottL: i see
<holstein> you're trying to get it
<ScottL> if stochastic doesn't come through soon on updating it then it will probably be when we go live with the new, updated website on our own hosting before we can update the news
<holstein> thats cool
<ScottL> holstein, i've BEEN trying to get it for since last release
<ScottL> it's madening
<holstein> ScottL: not cool
<ScottL> or maddening
<ScottL> yeah
<holstein> maybe we should get a graner on the case?
<holstein> ask amber to get loud or something
<ScottL> i'm going to update the request this week and make that same comment "i applied for access last release because we needed to update the website to people knew we had released, and now i STILL need access for the next release"
<holstein> yeah, *this* release
<ScottL> getting amber involved would be cool if she can poke somebody hard enough
<holstein> ScottL: i'll mention it to her
<holstein> see if she knows a string to pull or whatever
<ScottL> heh, true "....STILL need access for the current release"
<ScottL> holstein, but don't go half cocked...they sent me a pgp message but it was with an old pgp key i had and then i asked them to resend it
<ScottL> they don't deserve holy hell, but really though, six months and i got one attempt and then nothing again ?
<ScottL> sad thing is that luis had one on there that was years old and they cleared that one out when they sent me the one message
<ScottL> okay, going to be...getting up in 6.5 hours :/
<holstein> ScottL: i'll just mention it to amber
<holstein> see what she says
<holstein> i pinged her in our LUG channel
<holstein> and said what was up
<holstein> she'll probably catch it in the AM
<Kokito> howdy
<ckontros> off to work.
<holstein> scott-work: question
<holstein> i was listening to an interview on the ubuntu UK podcast
<holstein> *i really that that podshow by the way
<holstein> i was wondering if you would like to be interviewed?
<holstein> if i could ask and make that happen
<holstein> im trying to think of some awareness rasing easy things we can do
<holstein> we were talking about ubuntustudio and XFCE a bit on the last OSMP show
<holstein> and i mentioned getting you on there again
<holstein> i was thinking that show and the ubuntu UK show
<holstein> also, i want to catch jono sometime in a PM
<scott-work> holstein: i'll make myself available to anyone if it helps ubuntu studio :)
<holstein> and ask him to do ANYTHING in ubuntu
<holstein> even it its just importing a final mix into audacity
<holstein> and spitting it right back out
<scott-work> holstein: lol
<holstein> then, blog about having done somthing in ubuntustudio
<scott-work> holstein:  yeah, that would rock as well...good publicity
<holstein> it would be nice to have the higer-ups using these tools
<holstein> guys like that
<holstein> with such popular blogs
<holstein> as of now, his blog implies that ubuntu is not appropriate for audio production
<holstein> which sucks :/
<holstein> wouldnt take much to change that on paper though
<holstein> im still working on how to approach that
<holstein> and not be pushy
<scott-work> holstein: that is very true
<scott-work> i wonder how much of his reasoning for using logic or pro tools or whatever is truly justified for objective reasons
<scott-work> or how much is a subjective "this is what i like" sense
<holstein> he and [lsd] got into it
<holstein> i dont want to get into it at all
<holstein> i just want him to help us
<holstein> however that can happen
<scott-work> holstein: yeah, that would be nice for him to help
<scott-work> even if it was just some constructive criticism
<scott-work> i tried to engage him in such a similar manner and he really shrugged it off
<holstein> right
<holstein> im not going to stop :)
<holstein> i'll just bother him in the news channel
<holstein> respectfully*
<holstein> :)
<scott-work> hehe :)
<holstein> we need it
<holstein> we need him talking about it
<holstein> if he were here
<holstein> talking about why he cant use the tools
<holstein> he could plausibly stir up enough interest to fix the tools in question
<holstein> *assuming they need to be fixed
<holstein> its probably like anyone else
<holstein> just UI
<holstein> and being comfortable with other tools
<holstein> which, like lsd said
<holstein> is fine
<holstein> just dont say we dont have the tools
<holstein> thats ever worse
<holstein> here's a guy recording and making music
<holstein> specifically stating he needs to use tools other than FOSS
<holstein> thats not cool*
<holstein> he's going to have to take one for the team
<scott-work> an interview would be cool to get him to explain why he doesn't like it ;)
<scott-work> somewhere public
<scott-work> it would be cool to do it in such a way that others could offer their opinions as well in real time, either to support his views or contrast them
<scott-work> and having it public i would expect it to generate more interest and involvement
<scott-work> especially with someone like jono
<scott-work> i'm hoping this week to do a few things related to ocelot
<scott-work> i'd like to make a planet ubuntu post about xfce
<scott-work> but also maybe email a few places like linux outlaws and hopefully have them mention it in their podcast
<scott-work> i'm thinking about asking kokito help with some PR since he mentioned something similar
<holstein> scott-work: PING
<holstein> 10:50 < akgraner> holstein, he needs to talk to Kate Stewart, Ubuntu Release Manger at Canonical - she is skaet on freenode
<scott-work> holstein: thanks :)  i know skaet, we talk frequently towards the end of each release
<holstein> scott-work: jono didnt have time for a PM
<holstein> so i sent an email
<holstein> i'll keep you posted :)
<scott-work> holstein: i wish you luck with it :)
<scott-work> holstein: i really hope he does take you up on the offer
<holstein> i laid out a couple ideas
<holstein> from, totally switching him to FOSS
<holstein> and just talking about how awesome ubuntustudio is everynow and then
<holstein> and linking to your blog or the site :)
<holstein> if he'd just talk about it
<holstein> that would be plenty
<scott-work> holstein: i would really like him to offer some constructive criticism
<scott-work> but i have another lead for that that i need to follow up on
<scott-work> holstein: when you get your wiki page ready for membership and you need testimonials, let me know, i look forward to giving you one :)
<holstein> scott-work: thanks
<holstein> hopefully this month i'll get on my wiki
 * ckontros waves
<scott-work> cory, i'm almost through with my blog post...i mention:
<scott-work> unity not conducive to work flow
<scott-work> unity might not be stable
<scott-work> 'classic' gnome desktop not shipping in 11.10
<ckontros> Well, make sure you mention "our" intended workflow. Bot make it a blanket statement.
<ckontros> *Dont
<scott-work> gnome3/unity released meaning gnome-panel will suffer bit rot
<scott-work> right
<scott-work> i say the advantages are that i provides a familiar desktop expereince
<ckontros> Keep it positive but just that we feel Unity and GNOME dont fit our direction. Or something to that effect.
<scott-work> we would expect xfce to be more resource friendly
<scott-work> and the chance for us to develop a working relation with xubuntu devs
<ckontros> But dont mention things like "radical UI change" or anything as we intend to change a bit also.
<scott-work> also that this might yield graphical installer and live dvd
<ckontros> Sure sure. Sounds good.
<scott-work> re: work flow...rereading i see that i said "typical Ubuntu Studio user's work flow"
<scott-work> i'm about to leave soon, later after i get home and the kids settle i'll reread it fresh, edit, and post it
<ckontros> ScottL: Sure. Get home, chill, do whatcha gotta. We'll get together later. Geek out a bit.
<ckontros> I just got home my self. Gotts wind down. Eat. Ill try to sort this BZR issue.
<ckontros> scott-work: I will say I'm missing Nautilus but this should work out great. I wanna make the transition ASAP so we can work out any bugs.
<scott-work> ckontros:  i agree totatly about moving forward as quickly as possible to give us as much time as possible
<scott-work> ckontros: hey, i can work on some milestone dates if no one else bites on the email
<ckontros> I'm subbed to the xubuntu-devel list now. I'm gonna write something up about our intentions.
<scott-work> i'm kinda disappointed that someone new to the team or even not on the team wants to help
<scott-work> yeah, i should probably join that mailing list too
<ckontros> scott-work: Sure sure. I dont wanna keep you. We'll chat tonight.
<scott-work> oh, it's not about keeping me out...but i shoudl probably be aware on where their development is heading
<ckontros> No. :) Re-read what I sait. :)
<ckontros> *said
<scott-work> lol :)  
 * scott-work is heading home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-03
<ckontros> Ok. Im off for the night guys. Ill be back tomorrow.
<Kokito> hello folks
<holstein> Kokito: o/
<Kokito> hi holstein 
<holstein> Kokito: thanks for offering on the website
<holstein> as far as quickly updating
<holstein> ScottL acutally has been trying to get access for quite some time
<holstein> we are working on it :)
<Kokito> who is the admin of the website?
<holstein> Kokito: cannonical 
<holstein> thats the rub
<holstein> its not trivial getting access
<Kokito> that sux :)
<holstein> eh
<holstein> we'll get it
<holstein> we got the big site change coming too
<holstein> i just hope not too many folks assume we are vapor-ware
<Kokito> heh :)
<Kokito> is there nobody from the team with permissions to edit the existing content and/or add new content to the website then?
<holstein> Kokito: right
<holstein> well, there is
<holstein> but i think he is MIA
<Kokito> ah, yes, I recall Scott mentioned something to that effect
<ScottL> Kokito, holstein : stochastic said he updated the website to mention the new release but asked me for a link to the release notes
<ScottL> i'm hoping he will now update the release notes as i sent him the link this morning
<holstein> ScottL: COOL
<Kokito> nice ScottL :)
<holstein> ScottL: when you go there
<holstein> http://ubuntustudio.org/
<holstein> is there a log missing?
<holstein> logo*
<holstein> or is that something im blocking?
<ScottL> it's been missing for a while holstein 
<Kokito> the logo seems to be missing
<ScottL> it has suffered bit rot
<ScottL> Kokito, this is my understanding of the website:
 * Kokito listens
<ScottL> the website structure, all the .php files and like, are hosted in launchpad in their version control system, bzr
<ScottL> anyone has access to this as long as they have launchpad account, i believe
<ScottL> they can download it but can't push to our repo
<holstein> ScottL: is thats something that stoch can fix real quick?
<ScottL> rather they can push to their own launchpad account under "code" and then make a merge proposal
<Kokito> Scott, this is Drupal, so you don't need to push anything to bzr to change and/or add content
<ScottL> if the person is a ubuntustudio-dev, then they have access to push directly to the bzr branch instead of the merge proposal
<ScottL> Kokito, but if you want to adjust the "structure" of the website, you do in this case
<Kokito> not necessarily
<ScottL> once the -website package is updated then canonical looks over the "code" and pushes this to the canonical hosted website
<Kokito> a lot can be done through the web interface in Drupal
<ScottL> Kokito, i know
<Kokito> you just need the permissions
<ScottL> Kokito, holstein:  the "content" on the site is different, this is accessed through permissions in the website
<ScottL> you can add new pages, new content, adjust content just as you would expect with a cms or such
<ScottL> as long as you have access and permissions
<Kokito> right
<ScottL> this is the way that canonical controls what is put onto the website in terms of security
<Kokito> :)
<ScottL> this is my understanding of our drupal website on the canonical hosting
<ScottL> holstein, i don't know if it's a quick fix
<holstein> should be right?
<holstein> just pointing to logo.whatever
<ScottL> but i'd rather just push forward and make a new website instead of patching up the old one
<holstein> i bet somebody just fat-fingered it away
<holstein> by accident
<ScottL> holstein, it should be right, but i don't know where that file is or what it was
<holstein> ScottL: i agree about pushing forward
<Kokito> ScottL: I am more and more inclined US hosting it's own website by the day :)
<ScottL> it could be a simple fix or a hard one, don't know because i can't get onto the website :/
<holstein> it would be nice if the logo was fixed for now though
<holstein> IF its simple*
<ScottL> Kokito, i am tending to agree with you
<ScottL> holstein, i think it has been mentioend to both cory and eric (stochastic) but it's never mind fixed so i don't know
<holstein> ScottL: you are talking to eric via email?
<ScottL> i apparently bought a dell gx280 p4 3.0 ghz with hyperthreading and 1gig of memory for $38 and was delivered today
<ScottL> the onboard video wasn't supposed to work but it does
<holstein> w0w
<ScottL> it was only suppose to have 512megs of memeory too
<holstein> thats not bad at all
<ScottL> well, $20 to get it here didn't help, but it's still cheaper
<holstein> yeah, shipping on that stuff is a drag
<ScottL> holstein, about eric, i sent him and cory an email asking to update the website for natty
<ScottL> cory said he couldn't do it this weekend (but i don't think he still has the access)
<ScottL> and eric responded last night/this morning saying he updated the annoucnement and download link but didn't update the release notes yet
<ScottL> and he asked for the link
<ScottL> i sent it to him this morning
<ScottL> we'll see how long it takes to get it further updates
<ScottL> i'm just quite happy that we at least got the announcement up
<ScottL> but this computer will be something that i fix up with ubuntu studio and give away :)
<paultag> heyya ScottL 
<ScottL> hi paultag 
<ScottL> i'm tempted to take this computer (after some testing) and send it to ailo_ so he can see that i'm not kidding that dell's with onboard audio really do get such low latencies ;)
<ScottL> paultag, did you finally get your internet sorted?
<Kokito> forgive my inquisitiveness, but why does US use the alternative installer?
<paultag> ScottL: *finally*
<paultag> ScottL: all is well in the world
<ScottL> paultag, i think i would have gone mental and murdered someone by now :P
<ScottL> but i'm glad it's working for you again
<ScottL> Kokito, no need to apologize
<paultag> ScottL: T-W is so shitty
<ScottL> Kokito, however, i don't have a good answer, perhaps TheMuso might be able to answer why ubuntustudio uses the alternate installer
<holstein> i think it was performance
<ScottL> although i can speculate it was because of package installation and giving the user choices during installation
<holstein> back then
<ScottL> heh :)
<holstein> that would have been before dynebolic
<TheMuso> Its purely because a gui installer back then involved a live image, which we didn't want.
<holstein> and all these new fast live discs
<holstein> OH, even simpler :)
<holstein> size
<TheMuso> I believe Colin looked into getting the GTK alternate installer going, but I don't think anything came of that.
<ScottL> hi TheMuso :)  i hope you are doing well
<TheMuso> ScottL: Not too bad thanks, gearing up for UDS.
<Kokito> hi TheMuso :)
<TheMuso> Hi Kokito.
<ScottL> TheMuso, how did your accessibility pan out for natty?
<ScottL> you had a short time to get a lot done :/
<TheMuso> ScottL: Not as complete as we would have liked for Unity, but some incremental improvements accross the board, but we have tons more to do for oneiric.
<ScottL> i'm still getting used to unity
 * Kokito likes Unity
<TheMuso> I still can't use it, due to some important bits not being fully enabled for a11y yet.
<ScottL> TheMuso, what is ally?
<ScottL> or is that a11y?
<TheMuso> a11y
<TheMuso> Its short for accessibility, just like i18n.
<TheMuso> I.e i18n is short for internationalization.
<ScottL> ah, yeah
<ScottL> i knew the i18n, didn't know a11y
<TheMuso> Right.
<ScottL> i'm really hoping we can use xubuntu's work on the live cd to create one for ourselves, but i don't think it's going to be stupidly easy though 
<ScottL> and i'm not really expecting it to happen for 11.10 either....there's just too much other work going to be happening
<holstein> ScottL: we should get a bit of a time line going
<holstein> and prioritize realistically
<ScottL> aye, that's what cory was mentioning in one of his emails to the ML
<holstein> cool
<ScottL> i'm still disappointed with xchat's behaviour across workspaces with unity
<holstein> ?
<holstein> whats it do?
<ScottL> the icon only half appears on the side of the screen, gives a shake, then disappears for good it seems
<ScottL> on gnome2 you would get the icon on the top panel flashing and you would get a window listing on the bottom panel which pulsed
<ScottL> no matter which workspace you were on
<ScottL> and all you had to do was click on the pushing window listing on the bottom and it would take you to the correct workspace
<TheMuso> Making a live image will depend on whether Canonical can give you the CPU time you need to build live images, as well as disk space to store them.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i had thought that the live image would replace the alternate, but perhaps you advocate keeping the alternate?
<ScottL> my original thought was that this wouldn't yield too much additional cpu time/storage
<TheMuso> I don't advocate either, and yes it would replace the alternate, but the alternate is much easier to build, and requires less disk space and resources.
<ScottL> right
<TheMuso> Alternate disks only require one step to be completed. Live disks require 2 steps.
<ScottL> TheMuso, do you have a suggestion to whom i should speak about trying to make arrangements?
<TheMuso> The live filesystem image needs to be created and made available to the second step, teh building of the disk image itself.
<ScottL> the only person i can think of directly is colin
<ScottL> or scottk
<TheMuso> ScottL: I think Colin would be the first port of call, he may ask you to contact others, but I doubt it/
<ScottL> i'll need to start talking to him this cycle then in preparation for next cycle then
<ScottL> TheMuso, also, persia had mentioned about pushing the -lowlatency kernel into the universe repository
<ScottL> TheMuso, but he seems to be hit or miss in attendance
<ScottL> TheMuso, my thought was to begin talks with another -motu to help us accomplish this, do you have any suggestions on who might be a good candidate to talk with?
<TheMuso> Right, I waswanting to help with this, however to make things easier to manage, we need to base on top of the Ubuntu kernel. The kernel team have a work item to document how they create their derivative kernel branches, but afaik this document is not yet complete.
<ScottL> yes, i've been watching that blueprint, i think persia was quite disappointed as well
<TheMuso> I'll ask them at UDS about this procedure. I dare say they could tell me and I could whip something up to help us get lowlatency done.
<ScottL> TheMuso, persia's point was that UKT doesn't really have purview directly over this as the -lowlatency kernel would be community maintained and hosted in universe
<TheMuso> I'll bug Andy. I get along well with him, so I think he will be able to explain it to me without too much fuss.
<TheMuso> Thats right, but we need to knwo how to properly base on top of the kernel team's work, so its less work for us.
<ScottL> he was tired of waiting for UKT to finish the documentation and wanted to move forward :P
<TheMuso> Right, which is why I'm saying that I'll just talk to a kernel team member, and find out how its done, and go from there.
<ScottL> okay :)
<holstein> is that something JFo would know?
<ScottL> TheMuso, i think there is a bit of misinformation within UKT though about this kernel, they seem to think it takes an extensively invasive patch, much like the -rt kernel
<holstein> eh, its a little late here
<holstein> maybe JFo is out
<ScottL> abogani starts with ubuntu's -generic kernel and only makes run time flag changes
<holstein> i can understand the need for consistancy though
<ScottL> sorry, not "run" time but "compile" time
<TheMuso> I know that, and I can be sure that it is made clear when I talk to Andy.
<TheMuso> I am not sure if JFO knows, as he is not involved with kernel branch maintenance so far as I've seen.
<ScottL> TheMuso, that would be outstanding!  thank you :)
<TheMuso> np
<ScottL> oh, i just realized Andy is the APW most likely and the one responsible for the derivative kernel documentation
<TheMuso> Yep.
<ScottL> i don't think i'll make UDS this year either :(
<ScottL> work has been very, very busy because our parent company bought our competitor and now we are integrating our product lines
<ScottL> i'm responsible, with two others from the other company, to oversee and effect the integration of the detailing departments
<ScottL> i probably will not have the latitude to take a week of during the rest of the year
<ScottL> i wish the workspace switch had a key shortcut
<ScottL> in unity
<ScottL> i do like that when i'm in the workspace switch that i can drag and drop windows to other workspaces...that's pretty cool actually :)
<TheMuso> You can move between workspaces with control + alt + arrows.
<TheMuso> And add shift to that to move a window between workspaces.
<ScottL> hmmm, control + alt + arrows isn't working right
<ScottL> but adding shit does move the window correctly
<ScottL> scratch that, control + alt + arrows works...i was using shift + alt 
<TheMuso> heh
 * ckontros waves.
<holstein> ckontros: o/
<ckontros> ScottL: Gonna have time to write.hack tonight?
<ckontros> *write/hack
<scott-work> ckontros: aye, i will
 * scott-work is leaving work, picking up kids, and heading home now
<ckontros> I pulled a branch, made 1 change and tried to push. Got this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/603012 I'm using bzr from the Natty repo. Not I looked up  "rich-root support" and then tried a "bzr upgrade --rich-root-pack ." Said branch was v.7 and I couldnt go to v.6. So I'm stuck.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-04
<ckontros> Why don't we own this branch? https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/oneiric/ubuntustudio-default-settings/oneiric
<holstein> ckontros: you want to try and catch someone in -devel?
<holstein> or is that something TheMuso would know?
<ckontros> Luke might. I left a msg for james-w in #bzr but he's in the UK IIRC and Ill have to have ScottL follow up. *Any* branch we have should be owned by the -dev team.
<TheMuso> Ubuntu branches are branches that are part of the archive proper. TO get access to them you need to have ubuntu-dev privileges.
<TheMuso> So you can upload to the archive.
<ckontros> TheMuso: When the hell did this happen? And shouldnt our -dev team have access to our own branches?
<ckontros> (and HI btw) :)
<ckontros> TheMuso: I mean, really. We've already been through so much shit just friggin' getting them in there. We had you (someone trusted) to make the upload. Why the change?
<TheMuso> ckontros: This is ongoing work towards Ubuntu Distributed Development.
<ckontros> TheMuso: So WTF do we do?
<TheMuso> Eventually, anybody who is in ubuntustudio-dev will be able to touch those branches and upload packages.
<TheMuso> Atm we use separate branches, and not worry about those ubuntu-branches.
<ckontros> Ug. So this is something that will go away in some time? Couple of months?
<TheMuso> have a look here for starters. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment
<TheMuso> I don't know what the timeline is.
<ckontros> TheMuso: Ok. I mean, I just dont know how we'll get our disks built then. Will james-W be pulling out changes? I just know how we're supposed to work.
 * ckontros reads.
<TheMuso> We can work the way we have always done for quite a while yet, so wI wouldn't be fretting over it just yet.
<ckontros> Well we actually cant, because james-w now owns our main branch. We made release-specific ones for the packages. Our main one was always for tinkering. He's made /that/ one tied to oneric.
<TheMuso> Which branch?
<ckontros> Look here: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+source/ubuntustudio-default-settings
<ScottL> ckontros, try this one: bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> from: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> ckontros, you are grabbing the mirrored code that would then be owned by ubuntu i think
<ScottL> oh, i see luke is already answering :)
<ckontros> "lp:ubuntu/ubuntustudio-default-settings" was always our main. Where "lp:ubuntu/oneiric/ubuntustudio-default-settings" would be for release.
<TheMuso> Right, so just use the branch ScottL pointed to.
<ckontros> ScottL: Something is odd though. Try to pull fresh and you'll see.
 * ckontros tries
<ckontros> Why isnt our development branch listed here: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-default-settings ?
<ckontros> /Should/ be: lp:ubuntu/ubuntustudio-default-settings By now, we dont own it.
<ckontros> s/By/But
<ckontros> WTF? Really, there's things going on here. Changes the team haven't kept up with.
<holstein> when you say team?
<ckontros> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-studio-devel says: "UbuntuStudio Developers does not use Launchpad."
<holstein> who are you reffering to?
<holstein> like you and me and ScottL ?
<holstein> ailo__
<holstein> ?
<ckontros> The -dev team.
<holstein> oh, the 'group'
<holstein> the LP group
<holstein> gotcha
<ckontros> Look @ that page. Askes me to claim the group? I *know* that page used to look different.
<ckontros> Grr... There's something just weird going on. Changes. Making me nuts. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev
<holstein> maybe theres just a mistake
<holstein> an extra one
<holstein> or a new one cropped up after an error
<ScottL> ckontros, i'm pulling from: bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<holstein> and hasnt gone away yet
<ScottL> ckontros, it seems to be working correctly at the moment
<ckontros> Here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-default-settings it says: "Maintainer: UbuntuStudio Developers" with a clickable link that leads to: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-studio-devel Where it should be : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev
<ckontros> ScottL: Got time for Skype?
<ScottL> ckontros, i can in about 30 mins
<ScottL> i've been getting code for -settings from: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<ckontros> ScottL: What bothers me is that none of this is obvious. lp:ubuntu/ubuntustudio-default-settings should be ours. ALL our branches are set up this way. lp:ubuntu/ubuntustudio-PACKAGE. Im now worried all of our main branches are now like this. Where if you/I got to the page for any packages it actually doesnt show our main brainch.
<ScottL> ckontros, i think it's been this way for a release or two....i've just been using everything under ~ubuntustudio-dev
<ScottL> but i can follow up with james-w
<ckontros> ScottL: "bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio" Drops a "UbuntuStudio" folder in ~/ What happens when I pull another package? It should be a "ubuntustudio-default-settings" folder.
<ckontros> Or "ubuntustudio-wallpaper" folder.
<ckontros> ScottL: Please gimmie a pastebin (or whatever) with the correct branch cmds. (and push cmds if you will)
<ScottL> ckontros, no, you're right...it makes a UbuntuStudio folder and it didn't used to do that :(
<ckontros> Grr... I still can't push. Something's odd.
<ckontros> ScottL: Please pull clean, make a minor change, and try to push.
<ckontros> You've done this more recently than I.
<ckontros> Like pull it and do a "bzr upgrade" or something.
<ScottL> sorry, been distracted, i've been trying to keep kids from being heathens and get them dinner as well :/
<ScottL> made the changes, pushing in just a sec
<ScottL> aw crap, it's not working for me either
<ckontros> I knew Im not nuts
<ScottL> is this something to do with it being so early in the development cycle
<ScottL> ?
<ckontros> Might be. Xubuntu's settings pkg is the same. Look @ the owner: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/oneiric/xubuntu-default-settings/oneiric
<ScottL> hmmm, maybe we (i) need to folow up with james-w then
<ckontros> Some sorta freeze has gotta be on. All of our branches to this pkg are that way.
<ckontros> ScottL: Follow up with James and offer my apologizes if things just arent open yet. I didn't get mean, just obviously frustrated. :) And shouldn't Luke know we're frozen? :)
<ckontros> ScottL: We also have to clean out our PPA: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ppa
<ckontros> Hmm.. I think I can.
<ckontros> ScottL: Just hit me up when you're ready. If we cant actually upload code yet maybe we can take care of other stuff.
<holstein> ckontros: did you say you were going to make a live CD?
<holstein> with some studio stuff and xfce?
<holstein> or you wanted someone to make that*
<ckontros> holstein: It's a secondary goal. 1st, we gotta get things switched to XFCE and normal Alt disks building. Then, we'll need to talk to the Edubuntu folks who have made strides in task selection with their disks.
<ckontros> *live disks.
<holstein> ckontros: i was talking about more for demo purposes
<ScottL> ckontros, i will ping you as soon as my wife is home
<ckontros> Then we'll see how to apply it to us and wether Canonical will even do it.
<ckontros> If they dont, then we'll go from there.
<ScottL> i think our main goal for ocelot is to switch to xfce, if we have time for live image, then good, if not that's okay
<ckontros> +1
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> 12.04 wouuld be fine for the live switch
<holstein> i was thinking more for demo purposes
<holstein> for folks to see some of the apps in XFCE
<holstein> there was a thread like that on the ML
<holstein> ad i couldnt tell if you were saying you were going to make on or if you wanted someone to ckontros 
<ScottL> holstein, mac committed to making a live image of natty
<ckontros> holstein: There's not much on the live front to do any time soon. I *hope* to have the switch to XFCE and our custom layout/UI done the 1st month after the archive is actually open.
<ckontros> New are will follow. For now I will just use our current stuff.
<holstein> yeah
<ckontros> And I guess a parallel effort (to the art. which will apply to the website) can be made with the live disk work.
<holstein> i was just trying to come up with something I/we could do right now
<holstein> in the meantime
<holstein> for the next couple
<holstein> weeks*
<holstein> unoffically
<holstein> un-related to actual dev
<holstein> just so folks could have a look at XFCE
<ckontros> holstein: Well stepping up on the wiki page for a time line (like i posted on the list) would be a start.
<holstein> since thats something i could probably handle
<ckontros> Just something with basic structure. Maybe copy an official ubuntu one and we'll edit to suit.
<holstein> i was thinking we could discuss a timeline in the next meeting
<holstein> get a list going of what our goals are
<holstein> the UI
<holstein> and the live thing down the road
<ckontros> I dont think it needs too much talk. For now, if you can get a page together that would rock.
<holstein> right
<ckontros> We should have most of our "goals" stated from the last meeting?
<holstein> well, i think since then, we have really solidified the UI change
<ckontros> (didnt need the? )
<ckontros> I'm gonna try for the no panels/AWN thing ASAP. If the overwhelming opinion is everyone hates it, I'll copy our old setup with an XFCE panel.
<ckontros> But Ive been using *just* awn on XFCE for a week now and I gotta say it really works.
<holstein> cool
<holstein> ill give it a look
<holstein> like ive said, i know how to get rid of AWN if i dont like it
<ckontros> Only niggle I have is the cario-menu applet doesnt copy the XFCE menu totally. I talked to the AWN guys and they said they are working on it and it will happen this cycle.
<ckontros> Im really missing Nautilus and the tabs the most. :(
<holstein> i like nautilus
<ckontros> I do like Thunar. I just miss a couple of features. Just little things. But its manageable.
<ckontros> ScottL: My wife came home early from school so I gotta chill w/her. Think about a time for us to get together to hack for a bit and let me know. Maybe Friday (ill be home) or Sunday.
<ckontros> ScottL: Also, I was gonna do it but you should. Kill these: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ppa/+delete-packages They are damn old. We dont need the cruft.
<ScottL> ckontros, friday or sunday would be good and i'll look at the ppa later tonight
<holstein> ScottL: this good?
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/oneiric/timeline
<ScottL> holstein, that sounds good
<holstein> ScottL: theres no other oneiric specific sub directories i should honor yet right?
<ScottL> holstein, no, but i'm thinking of adding other subdirectories under /oneiric though
<holstein> ScottL: i think im going in /Sandbox with this
<holstein>  /Sandbox/Timeline/Oneiric
<holstein> if given the choice
<holstein> id rather have a stick in the eye than mess with wikis ;)
<ckontros> holstein: The addy matters less than the formatting of the page.
<holstein> im just going to steal it from another page
<holstein> the format
<holstein> im just trying to think of the future
<ckontros> np. Ok. Im off for the night.
<holstein> as far as the addy
<holstein> ckontros: GN
<ScottL> holstein, i'd prefer your first link to be honest
<ScottL> holstein, i'm seriously going to parse some things out from other pages and stick them under /oneiric as well, but on their own pages of course
<holstein> OK
<holstein> ScottL: i like that too
<holstein>  /oneiric /then whatever
<holstein> then we can change down the road easier if needed
<holstein> i think i might be missing the vision of what this page is for...
<ScottL> holstein, i would list the things that we might want to accomplish and then place a particular date for when you think it should be done by
<ScottL> holstein, remember, be realistic but try to allow for time to test
<holstein> ScottL: i have a plan
<holstein> ive already kinda started it
<holstein> im going to put it in that thread
<holstein> i have some general dates
<holstein> like before first alpha
<holstein> and question marks
<holstein> lets see if those get commented on
<holstein> and if not
<holstein> i'll just nail it down further as needed
<holstein> ScottL: art lead?
<holstein> mcmannis?
<holstein> whats his name again?
 * holstein found it
<holstein> Dick MacInnis
<holstein> well, its a start
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline
<holstein> now im fixing cammelcases :)
<holstein> Kokito: hey
<holstein> i stole lock on you
<holstein> on the wiki :/
<Kokito> hey holstein 
<holstein> sorry
<holstein> i had a quick change
<Kokito> eh?
<holstein> and i hit the button
 * Kokito is confused
<holstein> and then read that you were in there too
<Kokito> ah!
<Kokito> was just checking the page :)
<holstein> cool
<Kokito> will at some point observations in what relates to the new website
<holstein> Kokito: i was hoping to catch you on that
<holstein> get a timeline idea
<holstein> i dont think its on you though necessarily
<holstein> i think we have to get access on the backend still
<Kokito> well, I think I can finalize the theme, say, in about 4 weeks
<holstein> cool
<Kokito> how the website itself is structure and what features are desired (wiki, forums, etc.), it's something that we would need to discuss as a team
<holstein> Kokito: debian import freeze is june 16th
<Kokito> out of ignorance, how does that relatre to deploying the new website?
<holstein> Kokito: it doesnt
<Kokito> ah, ok :)
<holstein> im just trying to get an idea of the timeline of the release
<holstein> but, mabye somewhere around there would be reasonable for you then?
<holstein> finalize the theme around the 16th of june
<Kokito> I believe so
<ScottL> Kokito, i'm sorry, i completely forgot to get you screenshots, do you still need them?
<holstein> Kokito: you know where the page is
<holstein> if its too much of a push
<holstein> we can push it back :)
<Kokito> ScottL: I think I have what I need for now, but it would be nice to have a screenshots area in the website, so some updated shots
<Kokito> no rush though, ScottL 
<Kokito> holstein: not sure I understand you... what page are you referring to?
<holstein> Kokito: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline
<Kokito> holstein: I saw that page earlier today
<holstein> Kokito: september 1st is resonalbe right?
<holstein> for total new site deployment?
<Kokito> yes, I think it is holstein 
<holstein> cool
<Kokito> you can quote me on that :)
<ScottL> holstein, Kokito :  there's getting the website deployed and then there's getting content in it ;)
<Kokito> true ScottL 
<Kokito> the new site can be deployed with the basics, and then content added gradually, preferably in a collaboritve way
<ScottL> holstein, one thing we should consider on the timeline is time to research hosting and moving the website over (if that is the choice we make)
<ScottL> which i suppose we need to have a date to make a choice about website hosting as well
<holstein> ScottL: yeah, im assuming not moving now
<holstein> but, these are all flexible
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline
<Kokito> ScottL: that is one concern; from the POV of getting more hands in collaborating with content, running the website on our own server would be preferable
<Kokito> being that it is so difficult to get admin and/or editing permissions in the current setup
<Kokito> not criticizing Canonical, but just stating a fact :)
<Kokito> on a different topic, anyone located in the San Francisco Bay Area?
<ScottL> heh, i can't disagree with your comments Kokito  :)
<ScottL> i'm in texas
<Kokito> Texas is where I had the best steak in my life, after Argentina, of course ;)
<Kokito> ok, going out for a while
<Kokito> see you guys!
<holstein> Kokito: o/
<Kokito> re
<Kokito_> http://twitpic.com/4sy4zx
<Kokito_> nice wallpaper
<Kokito_> holstein: edited the "Update website" section of the wiki page a bit. I hope you don't mind.
<holstein> Kokito_: please :)
<holstein> yeah, i like that
<Kokito_> :)
<holstein> ill get with cory about the UI section
<holstein> and dick about the art section
<Kokito_> cool holstein 
<Kokito_> time for a movie
<Kokito_> good night folks
<falktx> btw, I just noticed, lmms-vst is no longer available
<falktx> so the lmms package pulls wine now
<falktx> I guess US natty will have Wine pre-installed ?
<holstein> falktx: ubuntu comes with wine now right?
<falktx> holstein: no
<holstein> maybe i just install something early on that triggers it
<holstein> lmms is just so glitchy
<holstein> still
<holstein> i need to spend more time with it 
<holstein> and get active about reporting where ever im supposed to be reporting
 * ckontros waves
<holstein> ckontros: o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-05
<ScottL> i defaulted back to gnome-panel, i'm not really digging unity for having multiple windows open at one time
<Kokito> hello folks
<ScottL> hi Kokito, i gave you a shout out in my recent blog :)
<Kokito> oh
<Kokito> URL?
<ScottL> uno momento, por favor
<ScottL> http://dullass.blogspot.com/
<ScottL> oy vey, i'm tired
<Kokito> thank you for the vote of confidence ScottL  :)
<ScottL> Kokito, you're welcome, you've done an awesome job so far....heads and shoulders above the work of others for years now
<ScottL> including my own i might add, you don't want to see my first inkscape attempt at a new website
<ScottL> it was pretty horrendous :P
<ScottL> i like people who make comments in my blog telling me to do something that i already did
<Kokito> ScottL: will do what I can to make the website one that people want to visit and use
<adit> can anyone point me a channel where I can clarify some questions on unity 
<holstein> scott-work: would you like for me to keep an eye out for skaet?
<scott-work> holstein: oh, i'll catch her at some point...to be honest, it may not matter since we are over the hump for the release and we may be hosting our own
 * scott-work heading home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-06
<ailo> holstein, I see the US home page has been updated
<ailo> Does someone have access to that now?
<holstein> autostatic
<holstein> AFAIK
<holstein> ailo: logo is still bad though
<ailo> Well, since Oneiric will be quite different, it seems suitable that the homepage should change at that time as well
<holstein> ailo: did you see that page?
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline
<ailo> Which one? Jorges?
<holstein> i think you should add test cases
<holstein> at your liesure
<holstein> and assign them or whatever
<holstein> ailo: the testing section is still a bit vague
<ailo> It's a little bit like a short version of ScottL's page
<holstein> pretty much
<holstein> cory really wanted it
<ailo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning
<holstein> and i like it
<holstein> nice and official
<ailo> It's missing some stuff, though
<ailo> Documentation and -controls
<holstein> yeah
<ailo> In my view top prio on both, really. 
<holstein> i think this should be an expanded version specific list
<holstein> more about what and when
<holstein> so its not a redundant mess
<holstein> ailo: you and paultag working on controls?
<ailo> Haven't talked with paultag, but I've decide to start working on it in a month or so
<holstein> OK
<ailo> Have a lot on my hands right now, and I need some extra time for it.
<holstein> think about a good ending date for that
<ailo> Takes some researching
<holstein> goal*
<holstein> and i'll put that up there too
<ailo> The only things stopping me last time was time. Not a problem now
<holstein> cool... lemme pack up for the gig.. BBL
<ailo> I should have a basic version ready within a couple of weeks after beginning the coding. What happens after that is whatever time there is to work on things, and what features people would like to put in, or maybe even replace the -controls with falktx work. 
<ailo> In any case, I will aim for a basic application first. If we have nothing else, at least we have that
<ailo> The other thing I need to learn is packaging, which I will do once I finished the basic application
<ailo> I suppose all of this should be ready to test by the end of June the latest
<ailo> In the form of a package
<ScottL> ailo, holstein: i think what cory wanted was some thought into setting some milestones with dates in order to make release
<ScottL> like we need to have the -lowlatency kernel built by a certain date so we can devote one month of testingg
<ScottL> cory and i need to update the seeds probably within this month
<ScottL> etc
<ailo> I can set up a periodic testing system and write a script for it, but I wonder who will assist me in testing?
<ailo> We need more machines
<ailo> I guess I could try get some volunteers on mail lists, once a script is ready
<ailo> Haven't seen meganerd around for a while. He started sketching, but don't know if he continued
<ailo> In any case: We already know -lowlatency is the safe choice, right?
<ailo> So why not just decide to put it in?
<ailo> What do you think ScottL?
<ScottL> ailo, right, but i think cory (and i was thinking the same) need to prioritize by assigning milestone dates to it, just like ubuntu does with feature freeze, debian import freeze, etc
<ailo> ScottL, We still need to learn how to create the source for -lowlatency, right? Not just package from abogani's, which I assume he will stop mantaining 
<ailo> It's basically a ubuntu kernel source with a patch, so it shouldn't be too much trouble
<ailo> 2nd of June is Alpha 1
<ailo> I guess by then it would be good to have a working -lowlatency then
<ailo> ScottL, I will come back in two weeks time to see if there's anything I can help out with. I will try upload a -lowlatency to my PPA then
<ailo> ScottL, If I can pull it off, I might as well host a testing script, as well as -controls. I hope to have a working controls ready by the middle of June, the end of June the latest
<ailo> ScottL, Here's my schedule, if you want it - 2nd of June: -lowlatency(whoever does that), 15th of June: testing script, 15-30th June: basic working -controls
<ailo> ScottL, Have you any thoughts on documentation, how you want to work on that?
<ScottL> ailo, abogani agreed to keep putting it into git as he already has but only if someone else packages, builds, and "maintains" it
<ailo> ScottL, Great
<ScottL> ailo, i think we already feel that -lowlatency is good, i'd like to get a few other people to test, especially with firewire
<ScottL> ailo, i don't have any thoughts yet on documentation at this point, maybe after this weekend
<holstein> ScottL: yeah
<holstein> i just dont feel like i can but dates on things
<holstein> without talking to the leads
<holstein> like dick
<holstein> i got some dates from kokito
<holstein> and i'll work down the list as we go
<ailo> ScottL, I suppose a draft of the documentation should be ready by some point, but it won't need to be finished until next release, or that would feel like an absolute deadline
<ailo> ScottL, If we can decide on the content tree no later than some time in June, I guess that's enough?
<ScottL> ailo, that sounds good, but we should probably prioritize which sections should be done first, in what order, and which ones should be done this cycle versus next cycle
<holstein> i said but dates up there ^
<holstein> s/put
<ScottL> holstein, the idea was just to get something there and we can discuss it (meaning the dates)
<ScottL> holstein, lol, i knoew what you meant ;)
<holstein> :)
<holstein> ScottL: is it way off base?
<holstein> what i have?
<ScottL> i think i'm about to convert my in-laws to ubuntu
<ScottL> their windows install went tits up last week and i'm not able to fix it so i offered them a couple of live cds with kubutnu and xubuntu
<ailo> ScottL, Don't do it. They'll harass you for tech support
<ailo> ;)
<ScottL> they were amazed that the live disc would allow them to get the internets right off the bat, when they're windows install kept dorking them around :P
<ScottL> ailo, i think i can ssh to their computer for most problems
<ailo> ScottL, Yeah, I was only kidding
<ScottL> hi Daviey 
<Kokito> good evening folks
<Kokito> ScottL: you should have your blog added to Planet Ubuntu
<TheMuso> Kokito: It already is.
<Kokito> TheMuso: hmmm... interesting. I am suvscribed to the planet's feed, but I did not see Scott's recent post. maybe I just missed it :)
<Kokito> TheMuso: you are right. I just missed the post. Maybe I should not check my feed reader too early in the morning (before I have some coffee) :)
<Kokito> bbiab
<Kokito> re
<scott-work> i've added a chart with rough dates for the timeline wiki page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline#preview
<scott-work> comments, additions, corrections, deletions, etc welcome :)
<scott-work> i'm still going to add some more line items to a few things
<scott-work> after i feel that all the line items for all topics are added with dates, then i'll parse it sorted by date
<holstein> scott-work: i like it :)
<scott-work> holstein: re: timeline - if there's some stuff you want to add go for it :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Did you send the agenda for the meeting, and did I just miss it?
<scott-work> astraljava: no, i'm behind on that :(   i'll try to get it tonight though
<scott-work> astraljava: if you want to make one that would be awesome :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Do you have any sketches already? I can finish it for sure.
<scott-work> astraljava: i don't at this time
<astraljava> scott-work: Okay. I'll write something up and send it to you for review.
<scott-work> astraljava: i would suggest that you go ahead and do it here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings
<scott-work> astraljava: just make another entry and we'll go over it later
<astraljava> scott-work: Sure that'll work.
<holstein> scott-work: thanks for putting that into a table
<holstein> i think thats what cory wanted
<scott-work> holstein:  no problem :)
<holstein> scott-work: i might just expand the information i put up
<holstein> the stuff below the table
<holstein> *at some point
<astraljava> scott-work: holstein: Agenda is up. Didn't really have an idea what items we should discuss about, so just left a couple from the one that happened exactly a year ago at this same phase of new devel cycle.
<astraljava> Please add details, add/remove items etc.
<scott-work> holstein: this weekend is not going to be good for me for the meeting
<scott-work> holstein: if everyone else still wants to have it, then that's fine by me
<scott-work> holstein: if everyone wants to push one week, that is fine as well
<scott-work> either way, i will still try to finish the agenda tonight
<astraljava> scott-work: No objections for pushing another week.
<holstein> scott-work: i cant be here either*
<scott-work> holstein: lol, i'll send an email later today then pushing the meeting again :/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-07
<Kokito> good evening folks
<macinnisrr> kokito: hi!
<Kokito> hi macinnisrr :)
<scott-work> astraljava: good response to kennth's email,
<scott-work> astraljava: i was also working something up but i may not do so
<scott-work> but i still might, i'm still kinda agitated by his statements
<scott-work> i'll probably come across somewhat ugly though
<quadrispro> hi all
<quadrispro> new beast touches unstable just few minutes ago 
<scott-work> hi quadrispro :)
<scott-work> you've been rocking out the packages lately :)
<scott-work> i do have a couple of questions for you if you have the time?
<quadrispro> I'm sorry Scott, not now, I'm going away within few moments
<scott-work> that's okay :)  i'll catch you at another point...have a good weekend
<quadrispro> scott-work, mail me! :)
<quadrispro> bye all!
<astraljava> scott-work: So did you understand it the same way?
<astraljava> Ahh... should have read a couple lines further.
<astraljava> Yeah, I tried explicitly not to come off as offensive.
<astraljava> Don't know how I succeeded. :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Well put, not ugly at all.
<scott-work> astraljava: hehe, good...that's not the way it was originally written however :P
<scott-work> astraljava: as i reread it and added all the bits about misunderstanding or lacking knowledge and "hope this helps you understand"
<astraljava> Figured as much. :)
<scott-work> s/as i reread it and/as i reread it i
<astraljava> Does anyone have good experiences of streaming music by PulseAudio? I tried to set it up according to some instructions, and while I did get it working for a while, it started to cause network downs on laptop, which is wirelessly connected to the router. The desktop, which was the "client" as in playing the audio on the stareos it is connected to, worked fine.
<astraljava> The symptoms were eradicated by purging the pulseaudio zeroconf module.
<astraljava> But then I couldn't stream anymore, obviously.
<scott-work> my only substantial experience with pulseaudio is only using it to play youtube videos and mainstream, pedestrian audio files
<scott-work> i haven't (and do not expect) to use to over networks
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<Kokito> hey ScottL 
<ScottL> i was serious on the mailing list about meeting times, they've evolved because of who had been involved
<ScottL> as more people get involved the time may need to evolve to best suit the current group
<ScottL> hi DeusQain  and detrate- 
<ailo> ScottL, I believe the time could be pushed forwards a bit, since it's quite early for us in Europe considering
<ailo> If we had any people from Australia involved, it would be a different story
<ailo> If you add +3 to that time, you get the time in Finland, which is the furthest away in this team, I believe
<ailo> So, I think the meeting could be pushed to 17.00-18.00 UTC.
<ailo> Without causing any problems
<ailo> That would mean 09.00-10.00 for Kokito, right?
<Kokito> re
<holstein> ra!
<Kokito> sorry ScottL I did reply here before. I fell asleep on the couch :)
<holstein> ailo: forward works for me
<Kokito> hey holstein :)
<holstein> thats a little early for me in general
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-08
<ailo> 18.00 would be 21.00 in Finland, 20.00 for me. That's pretty ok for me
<ailo> 18.00 UTC, I mean would be..
<astraljava> ailo: Are there others from Finland? jussi doesn't count. :p Anyways, 17:00 is okay for me, definitely. But then again, pretty much any time of day is ok for me.
<ailo> astraljava, Maybe only you then. I'm in Sweden, so it's +2 for me. S0. UTC 17:00 would be good for you? Let's propose that
<astraljava> ailo: Yes, it's good for me.
<Kokito> howdy
<astraljava> o/
<Kokito> I put up the work in progress new website on a staging domain so that you guys can play with it a bit: http://www.myhaiku.org
<ailo> Kokito, I noticed that mouse wheel makes the slide/tabs change. I always use the mouse wheel to scroll down pages. You think it's possible to have the slides not be affected by the mouse wheel?
<Kokito> ailo: yes :)
<Kokito> ailo: done
<ailo> Kokito, It's looking great :)
<Kokito> thanks ailo :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-30
<Len-nb> For those interested... I am still playing around with my workflow app.
<Len-nb> I have changed the BG colour to match our panels and added a "record mode" button.
<Len-nb> Here is a quick look: http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/workflow2.html
<Len-nb> For more background, in case you missed it. The original is here: http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/workflow.html
<knome> ScottL, you sleeping?
<ScottL> knome, i'm up and about to leave for work
<ScottL> knome, i'll catch you in 30 minutes as scott-work
<knome> k
<ailo> len-dt: I'm still wondering what the "record mode" is supposed to do..
<ailo> Someone might not want pulse to go away, if they are recording from it
<ailo> I think it's better to focus on finding out what problems there might be with getting good performance - really identifying them, and then deciding whether there shold be an app that allows the user to change some settings
<ailo> Also, why have pulse connect to jack in the first place, if you're not going to use it with jack
<ailo> Better to make it not connect at all instead
<scott-work> knome: ping
<knome> dong!
<knome> so, what's the status with the website?
<scott-work> knome: i was actually looking at it currently :P
<knome> hehe
<knome> and also, the team for us-bugs in LP
<knome> :P
<scott-work> i can set up the LP team today
<knome> that would be great! :)
<len-dt> ailo, I agree with your last point. I can only think of one use PA-jack bridging and would like to see it off by default.
<len-dt> I think originally, it was thought that it would make the use of desktop media player seamless after jack was started.
<len-dt> But that doesn't happen. It still takes messing around with PA setting after starting jack to make it work
<len-dt> Considering the load it adds to the system, I can't see us recommending that pulse be connected to jack all the time.
<ailo> len-dt: I'm not so worried with the load myself. The only problem I have seen with pulse-jack bridge so far is xruns at lower latencies, which you are likely to get with other software as well
<ailo> From a user perspective the main problem with pulse-jack bridge is knowing how to turn it off, or even make use of itr
<ailo> That is not so clear right now
<ailo> len-dt: There are tons of situations when you might want to have the pulse bridge on, so I don't think we should decide one way or the other. Better to create a -controls app that can help the user change the setting easily
<ailo> I'm kind of inclined to start coding that this summer. I will have the time for it. But, my goal is really to push it into debian. 
<len-dt> ailo, having user configuration is a must. Any record mode kind of deal will have different needs for the situation.
<len-dt> ailo, the term record mode is probably not right either.
<len-dt> It is just a term one of us used once and we have all used that to describe the idea of turning things off in some times.
<ailo> len-dt: I still don't understand what the "record mode" is supposed to do
<len-dt> ailo, I am actually more worried about cron kinds of things. Most of the time cron is very quiet, but can trigger resource intensive things at add times.
<ailo> len-dt: I'm going to set up at least three, maybe 4-5 machines for testing this week. Things like this would need to be tested and confirmed
<ailo> I'm happy to start doing that
<len-dt> the update app, downloads lots of stuff and goes through to see if we need an update once a day.
<ailo> We should make a list of possible performance problems we want to investigate
<len-dt> The one place where a low background resource use would be good is using it for live stuff where low latency is important.
<ailo> Yeah, the update app should not be automatic I think
<ailo> I think we should make sure performance is good, period'
<len-dt> I think for 11.10 and 12.04 there were a whole lot of ideas of things that would be great to have, but now we need to take all these things and use them in real life to make sure they work and how best to use them.
<ailo> Ideas are great, but I'm more interested in solving problems
<ailo> And to do that one has to first understand what the problems really are
<len-dt> ailo part of solving problems is making sure we have the right solution through testing.
<len-dt> we are trying to make a onedistro fits all solution. and I think to do that we need to test a lot more.
<ailo> Exactly right
<ailo> len-dt: Have you ever set up a TFTP server?
<len-dt> There are some people living in 2012 with a good fast machine, but there are others living in 2003 and they have different needs because they have less machine to play with.
<ailo> I need to install linux on some machines that can't install from usb, and I don't like to use CD's
<len-dt> what is TFTP?
<ailo> It's used to be able to boot from networkj
<len-dt> I haven't done that. So you would boot from floppy and install from net?
<len-dt> Or do the bios have something to boot from net?
<ailo> No, boot entirely from the local network
<len-dt> s/do/does/
<ailo> It's possible. Just haven't done it before
<ailo> Would make things easier. Have a server autoupdate an image, and then just install it from the network
<len-dt> I remember reading about that... way back.
<len-dt> It seems to me at that time (when coax net was big) the NIC had to have an extra chip for that to work. But none of the new NICs have a socket any more.
<ailo> Every machine I've used has the option to boot from network
<len-dt> So I am assuming either the newer nics just come with it or it is in the MB bios.
<len-dt> ailo, there is a tftpd-hpa package for 12.04.
<ailo> len-dt: My server has Debian Squeeze installed on it. The same package exists for it. Have read the installation guide, but it still requires a bit of research
<ailo> I'll find out in a bit. Gotta go now
<len-dt> later then.
<len-dt> I'm going too.
<scott-work> ooooh, monitor calibration at UDS:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20487/monitor-calibration/
<scott-work> ttoine would like to hear that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-01
<scot-work> ralph sent a rather nice message to the mailing list complimenting ubuntu studio 12.04 lts
<len-dt> Is there anyone who knows more about firewire stuff than me that could help the guy in #ubuntustudio?
<scot-work> holstein: is the firewire expert, as far as i know
<knome> scot-work, may i get you some tea ?
<knome> as in T
<scot-work> hehe, i see what you mean now
<scott-work> jussi: ping
<holstein> missed it...
<astraljava> What did you miss?
<holstein> the firewire query
<astraljava> On where?
<scott-work> #ubuntustudio
<astraljava> Yeah, but problem seems to have gotten solved, does it not?
<jussi> scott-work: pong
<jussi> scott-work: link me to your profile
<scott-work> jussi: i'll have to do that from home, can access facebook from work (sonicwall blocks it)
<len-dt> scott-work, we have a reason for PA-jack bridge. I didn't realize pulse doesn't see a firewaire device.
<scott-work> len-dt: i thought firewire devices worked fairly well since the new juju stack :/   but again, holstein woudl be the man
<len-dt> I figure anyone who actually has one knows more than me ;-)
<scott-work> hehe, me too
<len-dt> scott-work, it's just that I was starting to think having the bridge run by default was not such a great idea.
<len-dt> Now I know that for some people at least, it needs to be there.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-02
<acmeinc> ailo, i have 8gb of memory if you need someone to do some testing
<ailo> acmeinc: According to Ralph on the mailing list, there's some problem with his amd64 system, not getting access to all of his memory
<ailo> He showed the output of the command uname -a, which indicated that he is running a amd64 system
<acmeinc> i can confirm my home system recognized all 8gb when it was plugged in.  I recently downgraded since my mobo isn't linux friendly, so I can double confirm that in a few days.
<acmeinc> but, i can do any testing you'd need.
<ailo> acmeinc: I assume there is no problem then. It would be strange, since it's not really a -lowlatency problem anyway
<ailo> He probably has shared memory with his graphic card or something
<acmeinc> agreed 2x
<len-dt> ailo, odd that it seems only to be 64bit and 32 bit kernel is ok. It may be more interesting to fill up 4G on the same machine with a 32bit PAE and see if the video craps out..
<ailo> len-dt: At first I assumed it was the -pae the was the problem, but it doesn't seem like anyone has had any. If there was a problem with the -lowlatency version, I would suspect it was actually not a real -pae, like when -lowlatency was actually not a -lowlatency because of the wrong config
<len-dt> ailo, ya, but he says the PAE is fine.
<ailo> He does?
<len-dt> "> I noticed that for another 64bit Linux on my machine too, while a 32bit
<len-dt> > Linux with a PAE is ok. I searched the Internet and found out that
<len-dt> > several people on different Linux have the same problem.
<len-dt> >
<len-dt> quote from the email...
<len-dt> So if the 64bit kernel is correctly setting aside memory for the video, does that mean the PAE is willing to write over it?
<len-dt> ailo, ^^
<ailo> At least it doesn't seem to be -lowlatency related :P
<len-dt> nope.
<ailo> According to some mail responses on the LAU list, there is such a thing as soft irq's which makes it possible to tune rtprio for individual devices on the same IRQW
<ailo> IRQ*
<ailo> And for some reason -lowlatency is not doing its' job
<ailo> len-dt: Could you check something? I don't have ubuntu installed right now: cat /boot/config-<yourlowlatencykernel> | grep IRQ_FORCED_THREADING
<ailo> Not sure exactly what leads to the irq threading, so if you like, grep all instances of IRQ
<ailo> Which reminds me, I should see how the rtirq script works on this system. I'll be back later..
<ailo> I don't have any rtprio whatsoever :P. whopidoo
<ailo> For me it makes no difference at all when it comes to performance though
<ailo> len-dt: Actually, the problem is only with the soft irq. Supposedly, only the audio devices are supposed to get raised prio thanks to the rtirq script. On the other hand, they get high prio even without the script, so there's something else at play as well
<ailo> That's all for me today. Until next time..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-03
<len-dt> ailo, should you see this... the  rtirq script sets the priority of everything, but audio highest.
<len-dt> I'm thinking that may be a problem with my setup. Both of my sound cards are the same priority.
<ailo> len-dt: Except right now, it's not doing what it's supposed to be doing
<ScottL> ailo, len-dt if you are using the rtirq script you can talk to rui about it, he probably can be found #qtractor (if there is one) and he idles in #opensourcemusicians
<len-dt> ailo, http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration talks about the rtirq script and says the kernel option to use it is threadirqs.
<len-dt> Has that been changed to IRQ_FORCED_THREADING?
<ailo> There's an option called CONFIG_RT_GROUP_SCHED, which is enabled for Ubuntu but not for Debian (which I am on now), so I'm compiling a kernel with that enabled to see what happens
<ailo> len-dt: Nice link btw. I really lack a lot of knowledge on this, but not for long..
<ailo> Would be nice to have a supercomputer when trying different kernel configs. Or, just put several builds on que before going to sleep :P
<scott-work> hehe, i ran into this last night.  someone reviewed various linux distros and chose ubuntu studio as the best multimedia distro:  https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/571815-the-2012-top-7-best-linux-distributions-for-you
<ailo> So far I can't find any documentation that tells the whole story about rtprio and IRQ
<ailo> CONFIG_RT_GROUP_SCHED used to be hazzle in the early days of CGROUP usage
<len-dt> ailo, my irq priority looks about right. It seems to follow the script.
<len-dt> rtc0 is 90, my soundcards are 85, usb2 is 80, usb1 is 79, the i8042s are 75 and 74 and the rest 50.
<len-dt> ailo, I was looking at the "blurbs" for some MBs. They all seem to stress the speed of access the video controller has. This seems less than optimal for audio work.
<ailo> len-dt: There seem to be some problems anyhow, and the rtirq script is not able to solve all of them. But, right now, rtprio is being managed by something else as well. If you disable the script, there are still raised prio for stuff
<len-dt> I am wondering if I should list my sound cards separately so that my d66 gets a higher priority than the ensoniq. The ensoniq is only used for midi.
<ailo> len-dt: It seems you can edit the rtirq conf file and have your own custom config
<ailo> in /etc/default/rtirq
<ailo> Also, there's the question whether the whole IRQ should get raised prio, or not. It would seem it is perfectly possible to raise prio for just the device, not the whole IRQ
<len-dt> Ya I was looking at that, they use snd. I would put snd_ice1 and snd_ens1
<len-dt> If the irq is not shared does it matter?
<ailo> Nope
<ailo> But, it would be very helpful if this problem could be solved
<ailo> People with laptops and IRQ problems have little options
<len-dt> ailo, I am not quite sure what the problem is.
<ailo> Shared IRQ mainly
<ailo> rtprio does nothing for me. Never has. 
<ailo> So, I have no first hand experience in what it does
<len-dt> I don't know if it does for me either. Where I put the cards does though.
<ailo> I will try to create problems for myself later on. Setting up multiple machines for testing through the network
<len-dt> It even seems to matter what order the modules are loaded.
<ailo> I only know that people who do have IRQ sharing have had their problem solved with the rt kernel + the rtirq script
<ailo> len-dt: You mean hw:1, hw:2 - the order for audio devices?
<len-dt> ailo, I have five pci slots. The bottom most slots get a higher irq... 23 and down to the top slot.
<ailo> len-dt: How do you know it is the order that matters?
<len-dt> I had eth0 in the bottom slot which is shared with usb2
<ailo> For me it has no effect at all
<len-dt> and then the ensoniq and then the d66
<ailo> len-dt: What driver do you have for the eth0? What chip is it?
<len-dt> When I had -p 64 set and was downloading software I had xruns.
<len-dt> when I changed them around the xruns went away
<ailo> I tried to duplicate this, but I was not having any problems due to a network device. It would help if I knew what driver it is. I might have a network card here with the same chip
<len-dt> the eth0 module is 8139too
<len-dt> I think though it may also be my old MB (7-8years old)
<ailo> Don't think I have that one
<len-dt> I was reading about changing the length of time allotted to each pci card and it seemed to say there are two versions of pci slot (aside from pcie)
<ailo> latency for pci?
<len-dt> The MB may have something to do with how the cards are serviced.
<len-dt> Not really latency. the amount of time a card can steal the bus before it has to give it up.
<ailo> Still, having the network device interrupt the audio device is not acceptable
<len-dt> It doesn't any more. :-)
<len-dt> I can work quite acceptably at -p32 for  live stuff like guitar effects.
<len-dt> Some xruns, but nothing I can hear.
<len-dt> For recording, I want no xruns.
<len-dt> ailo, for recording, I would probably work at -p1024 and use HW monitoring.
<ailo> I've been working with kernel configs for the Debian kernel, and getting low latency is very easy. Just a matter of a couple of configs, but I have no rtprio, at least nothing that can be read with the ps command
<len-dt> The PCIe cards don't have a problem because they are star connected. 
<ailo> For me, all I need are those couple of configs, and I'm good to go with all of my devices, pci, firewire, builtin..
<ailo> I haven't been working a lot with midi though, and alsa midi is not reliable at all when it comes to controlling external devices
<ailo> The link you gave had some settings for hpet and stuff that is important for midi
<len-dt> ailo, yes and we don't have them.
<ailo> Would be good to test those and see how they change performance
<len-dt> I am not a key player. So it is really hard for me to test that.
<ailo> All I know for sure is that controlling an external midi synth using alsa midi gives very poor results
<ailo> If you can't hear the difference, it doesn't matter much
<len-dt> If someone sends me a .mid file (or whatever they use these days) I could test it.
<len-dt> I have about 4 external midi boxes.
<len-dt> I suspect just playing one synth from the keyboard will not put enough stress on things to show anything up.
<len-dt> Some of these "House" guys do _everything_ with a synth.
<ailo> When you play live it's not as easy to tell, unless you are a kb player. The best is to make one bar of music with any sequencer, and just copy it. Then record it
<ailo> If you don't trust your ears you can always check the audio file for inconsistency
<ailo> There is a huge timing error with alsa midi normally
<ailo> Not internally, when only using software
<ailo> But, when you send midi out to an external device
<len-dt> ailo, So jack would have the same problem then?
<ailo> jack midi should be reliable
<ailo> though, a2j is not going to help
<len-dt> Seems to me jack uses asla?
<len-dt> a2j doesn't bridge external ports, I use jack set to "raw"
<ailo> I have three types of midi I can try. usb, pci and firewire. Only the last one is jack midi capable
<ailo> I think. Anyway, I still need to set up these machines for testing. Better get the image server working..
<len-dt> ailo, a2j would help because it takes internal alsa midi and bridges to jack where the  external midi is.
<ailo> len-dt: If the external midi is jack, yes
<len-dt> What does the "midi raw" setting in jack mean?
<ailo> len-dt: Not sure, but both raw and seq are jack midi
<len-dt> ailo, I'm just reading up on it now.
<len-dt> ailo, it says that the -raw option bypasses the alsa sequencer.
<len-dt> It does still use the alsa hardware interface.
<len-dt> ailo, It is not very informative ... http://murks.lima-city.de/serendipity/index.php?/archives/7-ALSA-and-JACK-MIDI-explained-by-a-dummy-for-dummies.html
<len-dt> It doesn't say what the difference from raw to seq is, but does seem to think seq is better timing wise.
<len-dt> I think it means that seq bridges after the alsa seq.
<ailo> docs are sketchy everywhere :P
<ailo> rebooting
<len-dt> ailo, looking at this page: http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/faq/start under :Q: What is the difference between Jack-Midi and Alsa-Midi?
<len-dt> There seems to be a better explanation.
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah, so there is a difference in timing
<len-dt> It looks like setting midi=raw and using a2j to bridge softsynths to jack would be the best.
<len-dt> ailo, in Jack for audio, the latency is a known amount and a recorder can compensate.
<ailo> Why is that?
<ailo> latency is not the problem, while timing is
<ailo> It's like having a drum player who sometimes is too early, sometimes too late
<len-dt> So midi jitters?
<ailo> Not a constant diff, but a one that varies in either direction
<ailo> I guess
<len-dt> :P
<len-dt> If it was constant that would be ok.
<ailo> Every single midi message has a random +/- timning issue
<ailo> Specifically for external devices. That is at least my personal experience
<ailo> I haven't tried all my gear either
<len-dt> That makes sense that it would only be external.
<ailo> Shit, it worked
<ailo> booting from the network
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-04
<len-dt> USB 1 and 2 are problems for audio/midi anyway.
<len-dt> Wow!
<ailo> Nah, normal boot. Damn!
<len-dt> :)
<ailo> Those docs are never complete. They always figure you know what you need to do before you do it, to a degree
<len-dt> I was playing around with my USB ports... plugging in a memstick in different ones to see what irqs it uses.
<len-dt> All 6 use the saem one.
<len-dt> They all seem to be 23:          0          0   IO-APIC-fasteoi   ehci_hcd:usb1
<len-dt> Yet it lists usb 1 to usb 5
<len-dt> ailo, I checked my MB doc and it says I only have the 6 ports...
<len-dt> I think ehci is USB2 and uhci is usb1.1, driver wise.
<len-dt> Anyway, I said all that to say it appears that for this MB at least, USB2 inputs get routed from which ever hardware port they use to the same driver. I wonder what happens when I plug in two USB2 devices.
<len-dt> ailo, Paul at ardour in answering a user question says "@Edward: you are correct: a2jmidid -e is the best option, for all cases actually. It has better timing (jitter & latency) characteristics than the code which implements the "seq" and "raw" options of the ALSA backend. Eventually, the functionality of a2jmidi will be more easily available. It also provides "better" port names (well, more human readable ones anyway)."
<ailo> There's some controversy around jackd2 also, I believe
<ailo> But, hopefully they will get all that stuff mended in the future
<ailo> If there is one setup that is optimal for everyone, and includes all available functionality, then that is the way to go
<len-dt> ailo, right now I don't seem to be getting any midi out from hydrogen...
<ailo> I really want to have the thcp server running, but alas, I need to learn all about networking to do it it seems.
<len-dt> ailo, Ran hydrogen with both it's own drums as well as an external synth (yamaha TG100) with no noticeable timing issues. Both drums sounded at the same time.
<len-dt> I did two ways, alsa only and a2j only.
<ailo> len-dt: Try recording the external sounds. Timing is very noticable for me
<ailo> I was unable to sample 1-2 sec of a beat
<ailo> It never timed right, no matter how I tried recording it
<ailo> Like a drunken drummer
<len-dt> Right now, I can't get either midi seq or raw to work right now, so I will reboot.
<len-dt> Ah! can't make changes to the settings while hydrogen is running.
<ailo> Finally :P, some progress..
<len-dt> ailo, using midi seq. setting hydrogen to play it's own sound as well as output to midi port. recording hydrogen on left and TG100 on right using audacity. On playback sounds fine.
<len-dt> I will now reset up everything for just alsa midi.
<len-dt> Unless you can see some error in my test method ailo.
<len-dt> Does system load make a difference? I am using -p 128 and pulse bridging is enabled too. My midi card is an ensoniq pci card.
<acmeinc1> i'm coming in late, but is there somethign I need to be aware of midi-wise?   i plan to lay some stuff down this weekend for testing.  it looks like u guys were testing lag times w/ midi, and I was wondering if the default settings were causing a problem.
<ailo> len-dt: It may depend a lot on the device. Could be that pci is much more reliable than usb
<len-dt> So far I have not had a problem, ailo seems to have timing problems on midi outputs to real devices.
<ailo> acmeinc1: For me, I get really audible timing errors when sending alsa midi to an external usb synth
<len-dt> ailo, I agree. My earlier comment about USB ports was something to the effect that many MB seem to have an internal USB hub for all their ports
<len-dt> Or at least mine.
<acmeinc1> ok, thx for the clarification.
<ailo> I finally got network boot going. I had a dhcp server running already, which I had no idea about. After I fixed that, it was terribly easy. Now, I can install all my machines through the network :D
<len-dt> ailo, All? you make it sound like you have a flock
<ailo> I have a bunch of older machines, but a couple of newer ones too
<len-dt> ailo, my installs are all different.
<ailo> I will install Debian and Ubuntu on all of them. Control using vnc or ssh
<len-dt> I have four, one is real old. So it gets a real light one. The server has server and my Yf's has desktop.
<len-dt> Both mine have US.
<len-dt> Hmm, five.
<len-dt> ailo, is your usb midi port midi only or part of an audio i/f
<len-dt> And I guess I should also ask USB1.1 or 2.0? And do you have any other USB devices plugged in?
<len-dt> ailo, I think I will run the recommended a2jmidid -e option.
<ailo> It's midi only. A synth module called Roland xv-5050
<ailo> I have a usb midi i/o device as well. M-audio, that requires firmware
<ailo> Last time I had to use my firewire midi to the synth module, so I could use jack midi
<len-dt> ailo, I was just wondering if there was more than one USB device being used at the same time and if that may be an issue.
<ailo> No, this was entirely just the fault of alsa + this usb device
<ailo> len-dt: rtirq script was just updated after recent discoveries http://www.rncbc.org/jack/#rtirq
<len-dt> ailo, when will it make it into the repos?
<len-dt> ailo, I guess I should be asking what package it is a part of right now.
<len-dt> ailo, it looks like it only ran in runlevel 34 the new one sets RL2-5
<len-dt> It uses a different method of finding tasklets.
<len-dt> I'll have to try it with my netbook which still has some xruns at -p 128
<len-dt> Hi Ho, off to work.... later.
<len-dt> scott-work, just before I'm gone. The comment on #ubuntustudio about starting  Yoshimi. a2j fixes that and the -a may break something else. I assume it makes an alsa midi port instead of a jack midi port.
<len-dt> In any case, that would be the .desktop file for  Yoshimi.
<scott-work> len-dt: i noted that in my evernote file :)
<len-dt> Mr. holstein is a good teacher.
<holstein> len-dt: i hope so
<holstein> i try and be realistic in the support channel
<len-dt> It is hard to figure where to start with a machine I have never seen and a set of software I'm not sure of.
<holstein> yup
<holstein> and the hardware config can be so different
<len-dt> speaking of which, is it true with fire wire that the only way to feed pulse is with jack bridging?
<holstein> len-dt: i can try some tests
<holstein> i remember having issues way back
<holstein> i was assured at the time that i wasnt though ;)
<len-dt> One of the users seemed to think that firewire doesn't provide any alsa ports.
<holstein> len-dt: remind me and i'll try
<holstein> when im near "the rig"
<holstein> that'll be a while though
<len-dt> if I remember ;-)
<holstein> im not sure when ill take the time to switch from 10.04 on there
<len-dt> It does take some time. Don't use the upgrade option in ubiquity... it failed for me when trying to upgrade from 11.10 xubuntu to 12.04.
<holstein> nah.. i'll do a fresh install
<len-dt> That was what I intended. The upgrade option in ubiquity was where the fresh install option normally was.
<len-dt> I hadn't seen it before
<holstein> im the kind of guy who will go buy a hard drive and save the old one for a few months or so
<len-dt> This machine still has the old stuff on it. my netbook I backed up my home dir and reinstalled.
<holstein> i think i still have an old pata drive somewhere with "64studio" written on it
<len-dt> I therefore still have gcdmaster on a second boot if I want to use it.
<len-dt> I had the live cd for that but never installed it. It seemed to be flaky at the time... might have been my hardware too. Then I found audio slack and used that.
<holstein> that was the first distro i was able to get firewire working in
<len-dt> I think I started pre-USB... that was what I had the ensoniq card for. The MB was sub GHz. too.
<len-dt> 8 tracks and 600MB was a lot :-)
<len-dt> (hard drive that is)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-05
<len-dt> ailo, considering that linux (alsa) seems to best support usb1.1 would it be better to have two interfaces one for audio and one for midi, or a one box does all?
<len-dt> I'm trying to think what could be a nice portable setup. Small, light, inexpensive, etc. but still sound good.
<len-dt> Ok, having said that... I think there has to be a balance. It doesn't make sense to have a cheap computer and then spend lots on external gear that has to be toted around.
<len-dt> So midi out is maybe not a big deal. better to have a more powerful laptop that can do softsynth than have an external synth for example.
<len-dt> If quality matters in a portable setup, it is probably just sound and not midi anyway.
 * len-dt is talking himself into a new computer ;-)
<len-dt> for use as a musical notebook. the least amount of baggage is still going to be a preamp even if the internal sound i/f is ok. So it is just as easy to take a USB preamp.
<len-dt> So I guess I am asking what is a practical protable workflow.
<len-dt> s/protable/portable
<len-dt> Practical workflows for a portable system might be to record an event, record nature, an interview or as a musical note pad.
<len-dt> So the hardware needed is a preamp and computer. (plus whatever mics)
<ailo> len-dt: Usb would be the easiest. I don't have a device that is all in one and that I could recommend. Seems like there are too many problems. Latency being one of them
<ailo> firewire is probably the best, but then you need a machine that has a nice functioning firewire chip, and that's not very common with notebooks
<len-dt> ailo none of the notbooks or even laptops that are reasonable price seem to have FW
<len-dt> Do you know much about the interfaces?
<len-dt> The ART pro audio pre is cheap, but seems to have good inputs.
<ailo> firewire so far is only supported by jack + ffado, but alsa is going to start supporting it as well
<len-dt> But one has to have the port.
<len-dt> USB is all over.
<ailo> I've been mostly insterested in the M-Audio fast track Pro, since it has two mic preamps and phantom withouth the need of external power
<ailo> There's some discussion on improving it for alsa on the alsa devel list
<len-dt> Thats USB2...
<len-dt> I was looking at the sound devices pre2 as well. no midi of course and costs a bit more.
<len-dt> But could be used as audio inputs for the spdif on my d66 when not being used for my netbook
<ailo> usb2 devices work in usb1.1 mode, if they aren't either class compliant, or there is a custom driver
<len-dt> Do you know if the fast track has a  "stand alone" mode?
<ailo> I was interested in the fast track mostly because I would be able to take it outdoors with condensator mics without too much hazzle
<len-dt> ailo, so in USB 1.1 mode then.
<ailo> There are probably other devices like it. Also, some that require external powering, if you don't mind that
<ailo> My knowledge of usb devices is pretty slim. Some have custom drivers, like the m-audio fast track ultra
<ailo> But, how well does it work?
<ailo> Might require some investigation
<ailo> Fast track Pro might have something custom as well already, not sure
<len-dt> The ultra is listed as basic support in alsa 1.0.23 and better support in 1.0.24
<len-dt> The ART device, looks really basic. But because it has no extra features (no spdiff, no midi) the audio might be good. ailo the ART is also USB powered or battery powered or external and has 48v phantom for mics.
<ailo> Also, anything beyond 2 ch might not work in usb1.1
<len-dt> ailo, does midi and audio work together on USB 1.1?
<len-dt> Looking at how I might use my netbook... midi is not a must anyway.
<len-dt> ailo, did some more reading. It seems the ART unit (the basic one) finds the level of a dynamic mic a bit low for its 48db gain and is a bit noisy at full gain. It might be ok for a powered mic... but the suggestion is to go for something a bit better.
<len-dt> The ART dual tube pre being one of the suggestions. at twice the price it is still cheaper than the fast track pro. and it does have spdiff out... but not in. One hopes its time reference is good as it would lock my d66 to it.
<len-dt> I might take my netbook over to the music store and try some...
<len-dt> All of my mics are dynamic right now.
<ailo> len-dt: I was quite suprised by how low the gain was on my focusrite mics. A bit under what I was used to
<ailo> But they work for me
<ailo> I need at least 8 ch for live use
<len-dt> What mics do you use?
<ailo> Dynamic mics for live use
<len-dt> 8 ch is USB2 or FW
<ailo> I have a focusrite sapphire pro 40
<ailo> I mean to sat the gain was low on my focusrite mic preamps :)
<len-dt> you mean set to low or lower than the mics need?
<len-dt> ailo, what bugs me for some of these units is the bundled software... I don't need to pay for something I won't use.
<len-dt> ailo, my fist thought is yes I get what I pay for, but if I am paying for SW how good is the interface?
<ailo> len-dt: The mic preamps don't gain as much as I'm used to with mixer boards and other mic preamps. Feels like I really have to pull up the gain to get a good signal. Haven't really tried pushing it to see how bad the noise is though.
<ailo> Mostly, these days, when it comes to some basic HW, it doesn't seem like there's anything that bad around. People say the mic preamps on some of the audio devices are crap
<ailo> Could be. I should really look more into my focusrite preamps
<ailo> I take it for granted that all the manufacturers more or less are making the same mic preamps for the price range they are at
<ailo> But then I don't really know. That's just a general impression
<ailo> Some pricy equipment may include some very cheap components, so it's not like it's all that different all the time
<ailo> I just try to make sure I have the equipment I need for the job I need it for
<ailo> 16bit/48kHz is not that bad, depending on what you are using it for
<ailo> Cheap mic preamps are ok too. You get an ok signal, and no noise. That's the important thing
<ailo> Pro studio recording is different, but then you need to make sure everything in the chain is up to the job
<len-dt> ailo, it does seem I should be looking for something that deals well with -60db though. I think I may stay away from the sub $100 preamps.
<len-dt> My local music store has the cheap ART but not the tube pre in stock. They have the Native Instruments box in stock. no fast track. 
<len-dt> ailo, what would be a good, cheap end, mic for home studio? Ar ethere names to stay away from?
<ailo> len-dt: Condensator? I would just try not to buy anything too cheap and make sure it's good for what it will be used for. Some mics are allround, but become popular for certain tasks
<ailo> Most cheap mics are probably all round
<ailo> I've been mostly using RÃ¸de, different kinds. 
<len-dt> ailo, I was looking for something to do well with vocals or acoustic guitar.
<ailo> len-dt: I guess most large diafragm condensators should work. Rode NT1A is perhaps not the ultimate song mic, but it is said to be really great for guitars. A good mic for that pricerange. There should be better alternatives for vocals, I'm sure
<ailo> AKG has started making some cheaper stuff. No idea how good it is
<ailo> Then there's the odd brands that are kind of new. Some of them are ok too..
<ailo> Studio Projects and SE Electronics. That type of brands
<ailo> Don't remember which Studio Projects mic I tried. It's just fine for home recording
<ailo> Never tried a condenser under 100$
<len-dt> I am just now looking at the ATs.
<acmeinc1> I've got an AT, and the Tube Pre fwiw....
<len-dt> years ago the AT was the first AKG knock off for "cheap"
<acmeinc1> the at-3035?  
<acmeinc1> Its the older, discontinued version of the black 2035, not sure if that's what you mean.  But, it does rock!
<len-dt> I don't have one, the music store has the 2035 though
<acmeinc1> they are very nice mics, the 3035 is supposedly a bit better, but both good
<len-dt> The two low end ATs are the 2020 and the 2035. The comments on the 2020 is that it is better for female than male vocals.
<len-dt> How is the low end on the 2035?
<acmeinc1> I have the 3035, but its nice.  I used it to mic my old-time string band, and for recording my upright bass.
<acmeinc1> i'm omw to work...
 * len-dt went shopping for a USB interface, but got a mic.
<acmeinc> woot to that!  which one?  why usb?
<len-dt> acmeinc, The mic is not USB, it is an AT2020.. an AT2035 without the switches...
<len-dt> I was looking for a USB interface though for my netbook
<len-dt> They didn't have what I want. The fast track pro gave me no input. Jack and pulse could see it and audacity could connect, but no sound.
<len-dt> The art pre 2 only has -48 db in and I have some dynamic mics that need -60
<acmeinc> that's what i meant, usb interface, why usb and not firewire?  j/w   you'll be happy with the mic :)
<len-dt> SO I ordered the ART dual tube pre. I can try it out before I buy.
<len-dt> My netbook has no firewire.
<acmeinc> OH, ok.  i use presonus products, like holstein i believe.  i forgot to mention i use my mic for podcasts as well...I'll have to look into those ART's, they seem to be good quality
<len-dt> I'm not ready to spend enough to get a laptop with firewire.
<len-dt> The tube pre has good response even to a mic at -70db. It is USB1.1 so it will just work.
<len-dt> acmeinc, What kind of podcastes? You might like a mic with switchable pattern so you can use fig 8 for interviews etc.
<acmeinc> random everythingness.  We have 5 mics, I use my AT, but my partner uses cheapo behriner or maudio condensor.
<acmeinc> that's a good consideration though
<len-dt> My Yf is doing the karaoke with my new mic...
<len-dt> Being able to use one mic for two people eliminates comb filtering.
<len-dt> acmeinc, The other thing I forgot to mention about the ART tube pre is that it has spdif out so I could use it to add two audio channels to my D66 as well.
<acmeinc> nice
<acmeinc> OH, wait I know these products, yea, that tube is the best tube for your money, we had one of those
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-06
<len-dt> Even the non-tube pre seems pretty nice. But the tube is supposed to be really nice.
<len-dt> acmeinc, The one thing I miss on this mic is the 10db pad. But for what I do, I can just move the mic farther away from the sound. I don't see myself recording battle pipes any time soon.
<acmeinc> :)
<len-dt> acmeinc, I am teaching my wife the difference of using a recording mic and eating a performance mic ;-)
<acmeinc> lolz
<acmeinc> if we could teach our guitar player to do the same...
<len-dt> My wife has a lower voice and so finds a lot of the Carpenters songs are in the right key.
<len-dt> I need to get her to sing some stuff on her own and add music behind it... then get her to redo the vocals.
<len-dt> ailo, it is hard to turn pulse off. I had thought of doing things that way but PA respawns. Turning respawn off has it's own set of problems
<ailo> len-dt: Haven't put much effort on fiddling with that, since I don't really need to. 
<len-dt> ailo, I don't "need" to either I guess. I have a lot of figuring out to do on just how I will use things...
<len-dt> ailo, glad I took my computer with me. I was able to cross some things right off my list. The fast track pro didn't work for me and the native instruments didn't either. Both of them showed up in alsa/pa/jack but were missing functionality. The ART boxes seem to just work though.
<Len-nb> Anyone who knows... is there any reason to run ufw on a machine behind a fire wall?
<holstein> Len-nb: if you want to hide on your network
<holstein> running a public wifi
<holstein> anything where you want to be protected or isolated from others on the inside of said firewall
<Len-nb> I suppose. I am thinking all it does is set iptables anyway.
<Len-nb> I'm just looking for things not to run. I don't think that one would save me anything
<holstein> Len-nb: yeah, AFAIK, its iptables.. nothing special or different
<Len-nb> holstein, what do you think of the ARTs preamps
<holstein> Len-nb: worth the $$
<holstein> decent bang for the buck
<Len-nb> I ordered the dual tube pre
<holstein> not something i personally need right now
<holstein> Len-nb: i think you'll like it
<Len-nb> I want the usb input and it has a spdif ouot as well
<holstein> they are sturdy too
<Len-nb> I am getting it for the at2020 I picked up today
<holstein> i think that'll be a nice setup for most things
<Len-nb> Got some money for the B-day
<holstein> maybe a little noisey... but loud and warm i bet
<holstein> Len-nb: kind of versitile too
<holstein> like,, if you just have one mic and one pre, thats not a bad start
<Len-nb> I tried a fast track pro and it didn't do audio in for me.
<Len-nb> Jack and pulse see it, but no sound
<holstein> i think those pres are just OK
<holstein> i think maudio has nice value too, but i wouldnt lose sleep over it
<holstein> they are just OK
<Len-nb> The other one I tried was a "native instruments" thing. It gave me audio out but no audio in.
<Len-nb> I also ttried the ARTs pre2usb. I worked well, but was just barely enough for a dynamic mic... which most of mine are.
<holstein> good to know
<Len-nb> It does power off the USB, but the tube pre doesn't.
<holstein> this subject is funny "State of Jack as a full pulsaudio replacement"
<holstein> like... who said anything about that?
<holstein> JACK replacing pulse...
<Len-nb> Ja, pulse and jack have two uses, each is good at what it does.
<holstein> i think its handy if pulse routes through JACK, but i think the idea is, pulse will just do the job
<holstein> some day...
<Len-nb> Someone was saying pa-jack was the only way of using pa with a firewire if.
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> i used to just get a wire and plug it in from my internal sound card to 2 channels on my firewire interface
<holstein> in the business, we call that a "work around" ;)
<holstein> thats been working great for me for years
<Len-nb> FW is one of those black holes in my knowledge
<holstein> doesnt crash or use system resources
<Len-nb> sounds good.
<Len-nb> I think thats one of the things to know is what to set latency for different uses.
<Len-nb> for live use as an effect (guitar box or whatever) or synth it needs to be as low as possible. The odd dropout may be ok if it is not audible or there is enough other noise going on
<Len-nb> for recording... longer might be better.
<Len-nb> to record a phone interview from skype... maybe longer.
<holstein> yeah, most folks dont need low latency ever
<holstein> i hardly ever use below 60
<Len-nb> its good for testing kernels...
<Len-nb> I'm going to try that and see if my xrun per minute problem goes away
<holstein> i tweaked and fussed til i could run at 1.2ms stable... tracking 8 tracks at 24bit 44.1 overnight without an xrun
<holstein> not a total waste of time, but getting there id say
<Len-nb> my desktop does pretty good, but this netbook is not.
<Len-nb> with -p128 i get an xrun every minute at the same second. Trying to figure out what does that.
<holstein> yeah, i have a netbook with the same issue
<holstein> i bump it way up and still no dice
<holstein> with the internal intel device
<holstein> anyways... i gotta crash... GN Len-nb :)
<Len-nb> there is a new rt script oout gonna try that GN
<ailo> Seems my posts probably didn't go through?
<ailo> 06:37 < ailo> len-dt: I think to get the fast track working you have to specify the inputs and outputs with an extra digit hw:0,0
<ailo> 06:38 < ailo> len-dt: Since it's 4 i/o
<ailo> 06:38 < ailo> Usb 1.1 won't let you use all 4 ins and outs at the same time
<ailo> len-dt: The art box, does it have digital in and out as well, or just analog 2 I/O?
<ailo> len-dt: Also, did you try a low latency with it? Would be interesting to know how well it performed
<len-dt> ailo, there are two ART boxes I am looking at. They both have USB in and out, but only the tube box has spdif out. It does not have spdif in.
<len-dt> ailo, the fast track pro I was looking was used (rental). And I don't have a windows/mac computer to make sure the thing works in the first place. The price was right... but I do have a budget.
<len-dt> ailo, I figured if I could see it's inputs I should be able to use them... but, I could not see any controls for the inputs so maybe it was just muted.
<ailo> len-dt: You can get it started, but the audio operation won't work if you have too many ins and outs at the same time
<len-dt> ailo, the native instruments box I am sure was just setup. It seems to default to 4 outs and no inputs. Perhaps I should be better prepared
<len-dt> ailo, I have yet to buy anything. So if I can find out how to set things up relatively quickly, I will try the other boxes again.
<ailo> len-dt: If you choose hw:0,0, that might be the analog ins, and hw:0,1 are in that case the digital
<len-dt> The one thing I don't like about the ART box I ordered, is that it is a power hog... Tubes after all.
<ailo> I'm sure the preamps on that are pretty decent anyway
<len-dt> pulse didn't show that..
<ailo> pulse has it's own way of dealing with alsa
<len-dt> I have heard both good and bad about the ART pre. I would have just got the cheap one if it had a bit more gain.
<len-dt> ailo,  no kidding.
<ailo> pulse will only show you standard inputs and outputs, if such exists. Stereo analog, stereo digital, and so on
<ailo> Multi channel cards don't have stereo, or 5.1 normally. They just have a bunch of inputs and outputs, and pulseaudio by default don't know what to do with that
<len-dt> I was going by what alsa mixer showed too.. it normally shows everything. but I have seen something somewhere about having to reconfigure alsa for these units.
<ailo> len-dt: What was missing in the alsa-mixer?
<len-dt> ailo, for which unit? For the fast track there where no controls.
<len-dt> I was less careful with the NI box because of price more than anything.
<ailo> If there were no controls I guess there must be a real problem then.
<ailo> Some day I have to get my hands on one of those to see for myself
<len-dt> The kids brought something home from school... my head feels like like its been hit
<len-dt> They figure 10 days for the ART box to arrive because he is ordering from the manufacturer. There is one in Victoria, but not many in the country. (long and mcquade)
<astraljava> Victoria, BC?
<len-dt> Ja, I am on Vancouver Island.
<astraljava> Oh cool. Can I come and live in your basement? :D
 * astraljava is off for dinner, bbwl.
<len-dt> :) You will have to ask my Yf...
<knome> astraljava, awwh!
<knome> astraljava, i was hoping you'd be on for 5 more
<len-dt> ailo, according to this page: http://joegiampaoli.blogspot.ca/2011/06/m-audio-fast-track-pro-for-debian-linux.html, the fast track pro requires a kernel patch... might mean module patch.
<len-dt> ailo, this site: http://forums.m-audio.com/showthread.php?714-Not-a-problem-FastTrack-on-linux/page26 seems to indicate that as of ubuntu 10.10 there is some support...
<ailo> len-dt: I seem to remember something about that.
<len-dt> It seems that alsa.opensrc.org has had a crash of some sort. There is nothing there any more.
<len-dt> It does seem that with a newer version of alsa the fast track pro just needs a config file in the /etc/modprobe.d dir. But every link to this file I can find is inactive/not found.
<len-dt> ailo, depending on who I read from the fast track pro does  or not need a kernel (module?) patch. It also needs its own file in /etc/modprobe.d
<len-dt> ailo, the only problem seems to be that whatever site the file is on says it is not there any more. could be alsa.opensrc.org which seems to have been wiped of all content.
<len-dt> ailo, the unit that would work best for me (I think) is the Sound Devices USBPre2
<len-dt> but it costs around $600 or more.
<len-dt> If I ever get to the place when I am buying things like akg414 mics, I might be more interested.
<astraljava> knome: 5 more of what?
<ailo> len-dt: threadirqs is apparently a boot parameter
<len-dt> ailo, For the low lat kernel, or generic... or both?
<len-dt> My desktop is pretty good, but anything that can help my net book I want to try.
<ailo> len-dt: The definition of what it is is that it's a boot parameter. It's not used for a standard debian kernel, but it is used for booting -lowlatency
<ailo> So, it's not a config. It's a parameter used during boot time
<len-dt> So how do I add it?
<len-dt> grub config?
<ailo> It's already added to -lowlatency, but I'm currently trying to figure out where to set parameters in the source code
<ailo> Or, the package I mean
<len-dt> ailo, Ok, but if it is a command line param, I either have to set it manually at boot or grub has to include it in it's config.
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah
<len-dt> ailo, That does not seem to be the case right now looking at /boot/grub/grub.cfg
<len-dt> ailo, I would think the place to change that would be in the /etc/grub.d/ dir, but... I can't see where.
<ailo> len-dt: I just came to think that grub really has nothing to do with the kernel source
<len-dt> grub.cfg gets rebuilt every time the kernel is updated.
<ailo> And finding docs on this is proving hard
<len-dt> True, grub just sets command line stuff. It has to be in the kernel first.
<ailo> This is the kernel docs on boot parameters http://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/kernel-parameters.txt
<ailo> To enable the threadirqs boot parameter, the config option FORCE_IRQ_THREADING(from memory) needs to be enabled
<ailo> That's as much as I know right now
<len-dt> ailo, threadirqs	[KNL]
<len-dt> 			Force threading of all interrupt handlers except those
<len-dt> 			marked explicitely IRQF_NO_THREAD.
<len-dt> ?
<len-dt> ailo, using the newest version of the rtirq script did not help me on my netbook with it's one xrun per minute problem.
<len-dt> There is something strange too with my boot. I had xubuntu on here before and they are setup so that the kernel list does not show up at boot... so I can not enter command line stuff.
<len-dt> I would have thought a fresh install would have over written that but it doesn't seem to have.
<ailo> len-dt: YOu don't get the grub menu? Use the shift key while booting
<len-dt> thanks
<len-dt> ailo, Ok how do I tell if it worked?
<ailo> len-dt: The option is already default for -lowlatency. Don't know about -generic, so there will be no difference in that case
<ailo> Unless you disable it
<ailo> I'm assuming that is
<len-dt> ailo, it does have an on/off.
<len-dt> s/does/doesn't/
<len-dt> ailo, I still get xrun per minute or xrun per 5 sec with wireless turned off.
<ailo> len-dt: Since you already have irqthreading, it's more about setting the prio for the different devices
<ailo> As is done automatically using the rtirq script
<ailo> The package is called rtirq-init btw
<len-dt> There is a new script on the dev's page. I downloaded it and installed it. But that doesn't help this problem.
<ailo> len-dt: http://subversion.ffado.org/wiki/IrqPriorities
<ailo> There's some info on how to set things manually
<ailo> Perhaps you could try setting everything at low prio, except the audio device, and jack
<len-dt> The ath9k sure uses a lot of modules... I was going to try unloading them and see if my problem goes away
<len-dt> ailo, it may be easier to disable NM and reboot.
<Len-nb> ailo, the stuff it shows on that web page and what I get are not the same...
<Len-nb> for example the tasklet process does not show up. Difference from 2.6 to 3.1?
<len-dt> ailo, It seems as installed qjackctl comes set to priority default... or 1
<ailo> len-dt: I have too little experience with those values to comment. I would like to get to the bottom with how it is enabled all the way though, so we can tune it if we want
<ailo> Right now, I can't auto set prio on my kernel for some reason
<ailo> This is on debian
<ailo> The kernel source is not that intimidating anymore. The more you start looking around, the smaller it gets
<ailo> Even though it's huge of course :)
<ailo> Gotta eat and get back to what I was doing originally, which was trying to finish up a saving module for my puredata project
<len-dt> ailo, holstein ... turning NM off on my netbook got rid of my xrun per minute problem.
<ailo> len-dt: Yes, but I think we should be trying to get your NW to work without xruns
<ailo> NM*
<ailo> Not only for you, but generally
<ailo> I only now booted with the threadirqs option to confirm, and it is in deed that option that allows for rtirq to set prio
<len-dt> holstein, has mentioned he has the same thing.
<ailo> I know it used to be a bigger problem in the past also
<ailo> I don't think the answer is to make the desktop disfunctional only to have audio run as expected
<len-dt> I am wondering though if it is a hardware problem. The wireless/eth drivers are way down the priority list.
<ailo> But to get there, we need to find out how of course
<ailo> len-dt: I think the network device is having too much prio. Could be a kernel thing. Could be a rtprio thing, I don't know
<ailo> A driver issue even
<ailo> len-dt: My network device gets 50 rtprio even though it's not sharing any irq with any audio device
<ailo> Actually, I need to test without the rtirq script, since I remember rtprio was set even without the script
<ailo> So, there's more to it than that
<ailo> Only audio devices get above 50 though
<ailo> On this machine
<ailo> len-dt: It's definately hardware dependant, since this doesn't happen very often to people
<ailo> I mean about the NM
<len-dt> I think so too... gotta go eat.
<ailo> len-dt: When you have time, could you check something for me. I still haven't installed Ubuntu. Someone answered about the threadirq thing and pointed to /etc/default/grub
<ailo> len-dt: check for this line: 
<ailo> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX="threadirqs"
<ailo> I need to install Ubuntu instead..
<len-dt> ailo,  GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash"
<ailo> len-dt: Ok, so if there's no other boot parameter somewhere in a config that I don't know about, the threadirqs oiption is set in the source. 
<ailo> Starting to wonder if it's hard coded
<ailo> TheMuso: Do you know where the threadirqs option is set for -lowlatency?
<knome> astraljava, mins, but nvm.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-29
<smartboyhw> Hello zequence
<smartboyhw_> Hello DarkEra:)
<DarkEra> good morning smartboyhw_  :)
<DarkEra> yaaawn....
 * DarkEra needs coffee
 * smartboyhw_ gives DarkEra a cup of super-strong espersso:P
<DarkEra> Thanks smartboyhw_ In a super large cup i hope ? :D
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Tjat
<smartboyhw_> That cup is a 50 Litre one
<DarkEra> O_o
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: LOL:P
<DarkEra> ok, now that is too much. I still want to live :D
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: OK. Let me give you 1 Litre of zequence special blend coffee with a Ubuntu Studio mug designed by madeinkobaia:P
<smartboyhw_> sold by ttoine
<DarkEra> that'll do it :D
<DarkEra> members get it free i hope :P
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Gifted by smartboyhw_
<DarkEra> well thank you :)
<DarkEra> DarkEra , how do you wake up and feel great?
<DarkEra> well, just jump in on IRC and have a chat with smartboyhw_  in the morning
<DarkEra> while drinking coffee from a Ubuntu Studio mug
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: self-chatting is not a good thingâ¦
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, it's ok
<DarkEra> i know i'm nuts
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: :O
 * smartboyhw_ hides from nutty DarkEra
<DarkEra> lol
 * zequence sighs of relief, as another test was passed: network+
<zequence> Means I can focus on other things more for a little while
<zequence> linux+ is next, so that's more close to home
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Congratulations!
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Thanks
<zequence> So, let the planning start!
<smartboyhw_> zequence: \o/
<smartboyhw_> So what things we have on the whiteboard? linux-rt, DE support, ubuntustudio-controls...
<DarkEra> zequence, congrats :)
<smartboyhw_> zequence: What test it is? Is it paper-written? How much does the exam cost?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: It's done on a dumb client, and the test is a collection of 80 random questions, so each test is unique
<zequence> Don't know the cost. I'm not paying for it myself (the unemployment office is), but I estimate it to be somehwere between 250-700$
<zequence> First, I will start looking at what we didn't complete for raring, and move over + reorganize those workitems
<zequence> Then I'll make sure everything we've planned but not yet written down is documented
<zequence> Lastly, we need to discuss further planning on the mail list
<DarkEra> http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=extix ---> anyone knows this?
<DarkEra> by the way i also noticed that there are no screenshots shown on distrowatch of Ubuntu Studio in the Weekly/released last week part and on some other reviews/blogs. :/
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: :/
<smartboyhw_> Hmm that Extix thing should effectively be killed since it violates our trademarj
<smartboyhw_> zequence: It does come from Sweden thoughâ¦
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, seems to be a older guy who 'made' this distro
<DarkEra> just looking on facebook
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: What do you mean by "an older guy"?
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, https://www.facebook.com/pages/Exton-Linux/125357627524343
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: I can't view the link (I don't have Facebook)
 * smartboyhw_ has parents that are anti-Facebooks
<DarkEra> i could write a comment but want to know what zequence thinks of all this
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, oh, i see
<DarkEra> didn't know that
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: I think zequence is the one to file a trademark infringementâ¦
<DarkEra> using a Ubuntu Studio wallpaper with that logo can be confusing to people out there
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Or maybe Canonical is the one to file infringementsâ¦
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, from what i can see that man is just remastering distro's and puts them out in the world. There's also a exGENT (Gentoo) of the same guy
<DarkEra> anyhoo, something must be done about the wallpaper though
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: OK. But they shouldn't be using our wallpaper (albeit an old one)
<DarkEra> that's what i mean :)
<DarkEra> and is the reason i put it in here
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Can you have a look at http://linux.exton.net/node/1171 ?
<DarkEra> http://www.extix.se/
<DarkEra> does he have multiple sites?
<smartboyhw_> lol
 * DarkEra is getting even more confused
 * smartboyhw_ is infuriated
<DarkEra> *eye twitching*
<zequence> I wouldn't pay too much notice to that
<zequence> It's one guy, doing a sort of Ubuntu Gnome, with some custom addons (some which might not be legal)
<zequence> (he mentions codecs)
<zequence> At least for redistribution
<smartboyhw_> zequence: OK then
<smartboyhw_> zequence: You know how to install bzr in Android? (LOL)
<DarkEra> ok but still i don't agree on using a wallpaper of our project for his remaster
<zequence> I don't know much about reuising trademarks in wallpapers. Maybe he was unaware of that the CEF is a symbol for Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> Also, I'm not sure about the legal status of that symbol
<smartboyhw_> zequence: OK
<DarkEra> need another coffee and hope my wife get's back soon, need to pick up something later on
<zequence> I'll send him an email about it
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Thanks!
<DarkEra> zequence, uhm... ubuntu studio is a registered trademark of Canonical Ltd. thus so is the logo from my point of view
<DarkEra> :)
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra, zequence eee that will involve Canonical in it:O
<DarkEra> :P
 * smartboyhw_ is now wondering will that alarm the CC (shan't)
<smartboyhw_> Backâ¦
<zequence> DarkEra: The logo is a different story
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Meh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio says three years while the main website says 5
<zequence> DarkEra: Only the name is Canical, AFAIK
<zequence> smartboyhw_: You are welcome to double check the actual support time
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Oh
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Should be 5 I think.
<zequence> I sent him an email about it, so let's see what he says
<smartboyhw_> zequence: \o/
<DarkEra> zequence, oh ok. And thanks for sending the mail. Let's see what his answer will be.
<DarkEra> about the LTS time... i was confused... is it 5 or 3 years of support?
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Starting from 12.04 LTS all LTS releases are supposed to be supported for 5 years, no matter desktop or server.
<DarkEra> i know Ubuntu itself has 5 years but i read that xubuntu and ubu studio only had 3 years with 12.04
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Oh
<zequence> The support is equal to all. I can't think of why it wouldn't be
<DarkEra> http://xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/
<DarkEra> The 12.04 release, codenamed Precise Pangolin, is a Long Term Support release, which means it has support for 3 years
<zequence> I think perhaps the release period was made longer after the release. Deserves some investigation perhaps
<zequence> I think those release notes are wrong
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: zequence: Xubuntu IS three years
<DarkEra> i wonder why
<smartboyhw_> http://xubuntu.org/news/12-04-release/
<zequence> Again, I believe the period was made longer
<zequence> Please do not look at news or statements from just around the release
<smartboyhw_> zequence: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/Xubuntu
<smartboyhw_> Even the release NOTES says that:O
<DarkEra> i could ask in the xubuntu channel to make sure.
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Please ask for us in #xubuntu-devel :)
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, i dropped the question in their channel
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Which?
 * smartboyhw_ never joined #xubuntu 
<DarkEra> <TheSheep> !lts
<DarkEra> <ubottu> LTS means Long Term Support. LTS versions of Xubuntu will be supported for 3 years. The current LTS version is !Precise (Precise Pangolin 12.04)
<smartboyhw_> â¦
<zequence> Seems like Xubuntu have decided among themselves to only support the LTS for three years
<zequence> But, that's Xubuntu
<zequence> DarkEra: Nowadays, it means 5 years
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Hmm that's strange 
<zequence> Kubuntu will be supporting the LTS for 5 years
<zequence> So, 5 years it is
<DarkEra> yep and since we base on Xubuntu Scott took it over with 12.04 i guess
<DarkEra> we need to change it and make it clear for once :)
<smartboyhw_> zequence: DarkEra: Then can you guys change it? Thx!
 * smartboyhw_ likes https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument very detailed
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Why not you, since you brought it up?
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Can't, I'm in mobile.
<smartboyhw_> If not I would've done it already.
<zequence> "will be supported for three years per the Xubuntu LTS plan."
<smartboyhw_> zequence: What sort of plan is that?:O
<zequence> That's from the Xubuntu release notes
<zequence> Their plan
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Grrrr
 * smartboyhw_ does think the Xubuntu team is rather conservative
<smartboyhw_> Fortunately knome isn't here:P
<zequence> I'm unable to login to the wiki. Some new SSO problem
<smartboyhw_> zequence: :O
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Are you in https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-users ? Xubuntu is going to have a Project Lead election and people in it can vote (which is rather interesting)
<zequence> ok, now I'm in
<zequence> smartboyhw_: No, I'm not involved in that
<smartboyhw_> zequence: \o/ 
<smartboyhw_> zequence: It's rather one-sided though, the XPL election
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Greetings!
 * smartboyhw_ now doesn't know who to vote for Kubuntu Council grrr
<ttoine> hey
<DarkEra> ok guys, i'll be back later again, got some things to do
<smartboyhw> zequence: For Saucy, are we planning for 1 Beta as originally planned for Raring or 2 Betas like what we finally did for Raring or what?
<smartboyhw> Wb DarkEra
<DarkEra> thanks :)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Either we do structured testing before the final beta, or we do both betas. I think the former would do. Testing is one of those subjects that still needs to be developed
<zequence> This cycle I will put more energy on the testing bit too. We need to test new packages, and make sure all of our multimedia software is functional well before any beta releases
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK
<DarkEra> looks like i'm missing out too much chat here :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: No. The only thing you missed was my question.
<DarkEra> ah, ok
<DarkEra> why would someone still have songbird packaged when they dropped linux support
<DarkEra> bleh... i read that wrong i guess... lol
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: lol
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<DarkEra> aloha madeinkobaia 
<madeinkobaia> Hi darkera : ) How are you ?
<DarkEra> besides a cold i caught i'm doing fine. :) how are you?
<madeinkobaia> Fine : )
<zequence> I'm building ardour3 in my testing ppa now, just for the sake of practicing. Updated 4 of its dependencies, hoping that will be enough to build it.
<zequence> Or, rather, I'm still building the dependencies
<DarkEra> speaking of ... i'm playing around with ardour2, busy with a new track after all these years
<DarkEra> looking forward to ardour 3
<zequence> I was actually mixing an album for a friend just now, but got tired of some problems I had with ardour2, or rather mixbus
<zequence> Going to give ardour3 a go now
<DarkEra> cool stuff :)
<zequence> DarkEra: I'm building it at ppa:zequence/testing
<zequence> damn, one build failed
<zequence> Ah, no
<DarkEra> zequence, thanks. might have a look later on :)
<zequence> Just LP being hard to decipher
<zequence> If the build works (which seems likely), it should be ready by tomorrow
<DarkEra> i tried ardour 3 on dreamstudio once before i switched over here :)
<DarkEra> hey cool
<zequence> Apparently the build servers aren't particularly busy atm, since they start building at once
<zequence> Everyone's on holiday
<zequence> https://launchpad.net/~zequence/+archive/testing/+packages
<DarkEra> lol, guess they are after the hard work on the release
<DarkEra> brb
<DarkEra> bookmarked the ppa ;)
<zequence> Seems like there are some missing dependencies in the original Debian source. Should be fixed now
<DarkEra> cool :)
<DarkEra> bah... steel need to catch up on some sleep and get a more focussed brain if i want to get into the dev thing
<DarkEra> steel/still*
<zequence> hmm "Missing libs/ardour/revision.cc.  Blame the packager."
<DarkEra> zequence, i have Gnome 3 installed on another partition and added the Gnome 3 ppa to get 3.8. Looks nice to me so far. Much better and smoother than 3.4 was
<DarkEra> as long as you don't blame me^^
<DarkEra> i didn't package it :P
<zequence> DarkEra: I had some problems with it myself. The OS totally crashed
<zequence> I need to reinstall
<DarkEra> oops
<DarkEra> borked it yourself?
<zequence> I just did an update, and then it didn't boot anymore
<DarkEra> well, that kinda sucks.
<zequence> Well, I think I fixed it with a patch that falktx had added to his build ;)
<falktx> hm?
 * falktx is missing context
<zequence> falktx: I was just practicing debian packaging by getting ardour3 prepped for a PPA
<falktx> ah cool
<zequence> got the four dependencies built first, that were not available yet in raring, added a couple of build dependencies, but wscript was giving me problems still
<zequence> so, I had a look at your build
<falktx> ah yes, 
<falktx> ardour3 build is broken on purpose
<falktx> afaik the ardour devs are against packaging it
<falktx> but that is no fair for a studio distro, we need ardour3
<len-1304> If there was a reasonable way to download from their site on install I would be happy (er)
<zequence> I suppose ardour devs would prefer a different way of distributing packages for distros, one where they have more control
<len-1304> When they offer the src they have given that control up.
<zequence> Of course, the license doesn't give them the right to decide on how it's distributed, but I think they would prefer another kind of culture around package distribution
<zequence> There are other ways to do things than the way Debian does it
<len-1304> The way to do that is to provide a package distros can use
<zequence> Debian doesn't use ready binaries, unless it's non-free. Everything is built from source
<len-1304> yup, This allows changing libs as needed
<zequence> And everything is adapted to the Debian policy
<zequence> Don't know what possibilities there would be using the Ubuntu Software Center thing
<zequence> Ardour could add a package there, and even charge for it
<len-1304> A live ISO without ardour would not be as nice.
<zequence> I'm not suggesting we follow Ardours wishes
<len-1304> USC would want a defined price
<zequence> Well, maybe USC should be more flexible
<zequence> Just saying there are many ways to do things
<len-1304> Yes.
<zequence> Some people think the current model is not for the future
<zequence> dependency hell
<len-1304> I am not sure what the best route is.
<zequence> providing the source is a fundamental must
<len-1304> Jack is looking at including the opus lib because the one debian ships is not usable.
<zequence> But, it would be nice to have a system where you can use any version of software just by doing one command, and also, being able to use many different versions on the same system
<len-1304> many? One per user might work, but two system wide (maybe three) are about it.
<zequence> There's no reason to have restrictions on that
<zequence> If I want to be able to run 10 different version of an application on my system, that is what I should be able to do
<zequence> Simple as that
<zequence> there's much more reason to have many different versions of libraries, than applications of course
<len-1304> So long as they are in different directories it can be done. Ardour does this and can work.
<len-1304> Many libs can be used... often two or more are.
<zequence> Also, static releases is not for the future either
<len-1304> But they work better now and future than in the past :)
<zequence> Either the file system hierachy needs to add a name system that uses versioning, to keep track of multiple libraries and applications, all simultaniously installed on the system, or, packages should include them all in on package, or both
<zequence> I mean, about the package, the way the offical Ardour3 is packaged
<len-1304> I think in that case there needs to be a division between "added" SW and what comes with the OS or distro
<len-1304> Not sure where the line would be drawn though.
<zequence> I think Windows does something of the sort, where if you remove some applications, if there are system libraries that no other application is using, it's supposed to be removed
<zequence> And say you have old versions of libraries. The packaging system on the OS should be able to keep track of when an older version of a library becomes redundant, and can be removed
<len-1304> deb/ub sort of do that too... It would be nice if older kernels were removed once in a while though.
<zequence> debian only keeps one version at the time, not many
<zequence> not talking about kernels
<len-1304> more than one version of tcl/tk, more than one version of the major gnome libs.
<len-1304> not more than one package version of the same lib version though.
<zequence> Some libs do have version naming, yes, you are right
<zequence> But, not all
<zequence> it's just <library>
<len-1304> That is left up to the SW author or the packager. I would think any package could be built versioned
<zequence> I'm not talking about individual packages. I'm talking about the policy of the entire system
<len-1304> most src allows the base dir to be spec-ed at build time
<zequence> anyway, seems like ardour3 got built finally
<len-1304> Yes, but what I am saying is that if an org (like debian) decided to impose that, the src would not stop it from being done.
<zequence> well, of course not, as long as you have access to the source. Also, it is quite possible to suggest policy changes upstream to SW authors, if nothing else, then in the form of "if" defitions
<DarkEra> i'm off to catch up on some sleep, chat you later guys :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-30
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra:)
<DarkEra> hey smartboyhw :)
<DarkEra> wb smartboyhw 
<DarkEra> brb
<DarkEra> will be back in a few hours, got to go now
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Considering that both of you guys are Finnish and you met him personally in UDS-R Copanhagen, you might want to cheer for knome in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/XPL2013 :P
<smartboyhw_> zequence: len-1304: DarkEra: You will like this http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/04/lightworks-enter-public-beta
 * falktx just read about that
<falktx> seems like you need to sign an agreement to download
<smartboyhw_> falktx: Oh
<DarkEra> hi all :)
<DarkEra> got ardour 3 installed, thanks for the ppa zequence :)
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: :)
<DarkEra> now i got to learn to work with the new features
<smartboyhw_> :)
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<DarkEra> hi madeinkobaia 
<madeinkobaia> How are my Belgium fellow ? 
<madeinkobaia> Bbl :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-01
 * smartboyhw likes holidays like today 
<ReikiDan> hi
<ReikiDan> @chanserv volunteer
<smartboyhw> What?
<ReikiDan> how do I register to login?
<smartboyhw> ReikiDan: Login what?
<smartboyhw> Whoa that's abrupt, Fuduntu decided to close down INMEDIATELY starting from two days earlier
<smartboyhw> R.I.P GNOME 2
<DarkEra> morning
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: So Fuduntu Project completely ended two days ago:O
<DarkEra> i know
<DarkEra> :)
<smartboyhw> R.I.P. GNOME 2 and Fuduntu
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: That's quite abrupt
<DarkEra> yep, because the majority of the users went on to other distro's
<DarkEra> fewt retired so he isn't in charge anymore from now on
<DarkEra> FuSe will mostlikely use Consort DE from SolusOS, which isn't even out yet and under heavy development. Plus the fact it's just another Gnome 3 fork.... like Cinnamon
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Yeah
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, but hey, i have found my way back home and i'm happy here ;)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: I don't understand why so many people liked GNOME 2 though
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: \o/
<DarkEra> Well, Gnome 2 has been one of the major DE's for many years, so people got used to it. When Gnome 3 and Unity came out some of the 'old guys' refused to work with that because they don't like the whole concept of Gnome 3 and Unity.
<DarkEra> to them these DE's are just touch/tablet interfaces
<DarkEra> they want to use the mouse to point and click, not willing to learn to work with keyboard shortcuts etc
<DarkEra> don't tell me i've been 'talking' for nothing now and you missed all of it smartboyhw_  lol
<DarkEra> doh
<DarkEra> :D
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: doh what?
<DarkEra> <DarkEra> don't tell me i've been 'talking' for nothing now and you missed all of it smartboyhw_  lol
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: If people don't like Xfce or KDE or GNOME 3 or Cinnamon or MATE or Unity they should really change their art perspective
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: I'm sorry, but GNOME 2 is simply Windows XPâ¦
<falktx> smartboyhw_: I think the issue is that, compared to gnome2, gnome3 kinda sucks
<falktx> maybe things are a bit better now, but older versions were not good...
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, i agree. What i don't understand is that Xfce almost looks and acts like Gnome 2, still the nay sayers refuse to use it. Even the Fuduntu team when i proposed it. If they had switched over to Xfce they could have used GTK3 and continue with the project
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Yep
<smartboyhw_> I mean, at least the others are more moderb
<smartboyhw_> *modern
<smartboyhw_> GNOME 2 is crap since it is too traditional
<smartboyhw_> Tech evolves
<DarkEra> falktx, just like with KDE 4 when it first came out Gnome 3 also has to evolve to a mature level
<smartboyhw_> And people just can't accept new things
<DarkEra> true
<falktx> it's hard to accept things when they are forced upon you
<falktx> when you don't have a choice
<smartboyhw_> falktx: One has the choice not to use GNOME
<falktx> they wanted gnome2, but it wasn't there anymore
<smartboyhw_> So many GNOME 3 forks out there are good enough
<smartboyhw_> KDE LXDE Xfce
<smartboyhw_> Cinnamon MATE Unity
<DarkEra> there seems to be a distro that ditches Gnome 3 and goes back to Gnome 2, i forgot which one it was
<DarkEra> ah, Calculate Linux
<DarkEra> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Calculate-Linux-13-4-Ditches-GNOME-3-in-favor-of-GNOME-2-347230.shtml
<DarkEra> MATE is a Gnome 2 fork but they will get into trouble soon i guess
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: agreed
<DarkEra> brb ----> kids
<DarkEra> also Cinnamon is running into trouble because they can't or couldn't keep it up making it compatible with gnome 3.6 and 3.8. Cinnarch switched to Gnome 3 because of that
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Yep
<smartboyhw_> GNOME is a complete mess
<DarkEra> Gnome just needs time
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Fortunately when GNOME 2 died we switched to Xfce (thanks ScottL)
<DarkEra> i like it so far, especially the 3.8 release
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: :)
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, yep i know :)
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Or rather: GNOME forks are a mess:P
<DarkEra> it's the best thing that he could have done. Xfce fits in well
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, yeah
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: heh there is some strange thing that some people didn't use Ubuntu Studio cause there is NO Unity
<DarkEra> Cinnamon is great for LMDE and the ubuntu based mint, but for a more true rolling release distro it's not
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, wah?
<DarkEra> really?
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: https://plus.google.com/110039687189146809887/posts/AwHmECdkRsk (you left a comment also)
<DarkEra> let me guess, that why Dream Studio has been created and is based on Ubuntu with the Unity desktop :)
<smartboyhw_> That was the longest G+ comment I ever made
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: probably
<DarkEra> ah yes, that one
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: You know Dick Macinnis was once our Artwork Lead?
<DarkEra> i thought he only made one wallpaper, the one that is used on 12.04 and 12.10
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: dunno
 * smartboyhw_ doesn't know much before 12.08
<smartboyhw_> lol
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: ttoine knows much more (he's the co-founder of Ubuntu Studio:P)
<DarkEra> well, the wallpaper that is used in both versions is his work. For the rest i don't know what Dick did. :)
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, co-founder? So we have a ancient ubu stu guru around here :D
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Damn it I got too used to zequence's wallpaper I completely forgotten the old oneâ¦
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Yep
<DarkEra> lol
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: There is a channel log of here one early April (or late March) where I and zequence had a "Ubuntu Studio history" lesson from ttoine
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_,  http://goo.gl/FjRNt
<smartboyhw_> Probably earlier, I am sure madeinkobaia haven't joined that time
<DarkEra> ah ok, i'll look into that soon then, should be fun
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Oh that one:P
<DarkEra> we all together should rent a office and get together while working on things :P
<DarkEra> that's on "together" too much
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: LOL:)
<smartboyhw_> zequence: When I was trying to find ttoine's log I found http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/02/20/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html and seriously I'm not the youngest member. benonsoftware here applied when he was 12:P
<smartboyhw_> And got it
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Damn the history lesson was after madeinkobaia joined http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/04/03/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<DarkEra> lol... i went on a search myself. :D
<DarkEra> thanks for the link smartboyhw :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: :) the middle part
<DarkEra> ok, thanks
<smartboyhw> Ah good, let me add into our blueprints: Add a wiki page to talk about Ubuntu Studio's history:P
<zequence> Just had a quick go using Lightworks
<zequence> audio was choppy
<zequence> sure there are lots of other bugs
<zequence> I'm sure video editors will appreciate it
<DarkEra> heya zequence 
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, that was a nice read :)
<smartboyhw> zequence: DarkEra: :)
<smartboyhw> zequence: Did you receive my message yesterday about supporting knome for XPL election?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, I did. I also had a talk with knome in person
<smartboyhw> zequence: Oh
<zequence> Are the elections today?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Do you have a link to the election page?
<smartboyhw> zequence: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-users/+poll/xubuntu-xpl-2013 today 15:00 UTC till tmr 15:00 UTC
<smartboyhw> You DID join the team right?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I didn't. Since I'm not involved in Xubuntu development, I'm not going to take part in voting either
<zequence> going outdoors for a while
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK. I am taking dinner soon also
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Did I miss anything after I said I am going for dinner? I'm back from it
<DarkEra> wb smartboyhw 
<DarkEra> no you didn't miss anything, it's been quiet
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: :)
<smartboyhw> Hello madeinkobaia
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :)
<DarkEra> heya madeinkobaia 
<DarkEra> i kinda missed your last messages yesterday so that's why i didn't reply
<DarkEra> you were gone by then.. LOL
<madeinkobaia> darkera : No problems ;) that's what I guess.
<DarkEra> :D
<madeinkobaia> For those who're interesting, I put on line some graphical branding studies for our OS, a square format : http://sta.sh/01ksyv29jaly and a poster project : http://sta.sh/0l23undp08x, both are mockups, just mixing some ideas.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Good ones!!!!!
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Thanks :)
<DarkEra> i deffo like the second one
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Ok. 
<DarkEra> it looks really great :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : :) Thanks a lot.
<DarkEra> yw :)
<DarkEra> i'm going for my daily walk... helps to calm my mind :)
<DarkEra> bbl
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: :)
<DarkEra> i'll stay online but away. If anything then let me know so i can read it back later on
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Cheers;)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : How was your walk ?
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, it was nice :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : No better thing than walkin' (in a nice place) for aerate the spirit. 
<madeinkobaia> darkera : I am not sure of the literal translation from French on "aerate the spirit" but I guess you understand :P
<DarkEra> i do it on a daily base when i can and yep i understand what you mean
<DarkEra> :)
<DarkEra> it's good to set my mind on something else, get a clear head
<DarkEra> being busy with two little kids can be stressfull sometimes :D
<madeinkobaia> darkera : I have that when playing music too.
<DarkEra> music is always good for the soul :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : I don't have children yet, but I can imagine could be stress sometimes.
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Music is good for all :D
<DarkEra> all is great and beautiful when they are babies but when they reach 2 or 3 years they take up all the energy
<DarkEra> but still, i love them to bits
<madeinkobaia> darkera : That's the essential.
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, i started working on something and first time using opensource software. It will take some time but i'm convinced i can pull it off to have a full new track at some point
<DarkEra> there will be a new blogpost coming up soon where i explain a few things
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, and yep that's true
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Great, otherwise I am sorry I can't find anymore the link you send me about your music : (
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, oh. no problem. Hold on i'll paste it in a minute
<DarkEra> https://soundcloud.com/mathius-quest
<DarkEra> here you go :)
<DarkEra> the tomb raider track was made in 2008 on a iMac that died on me some time later and all the other tracks were made between 2000 and 2003 on a playstation 1 and playstation 2
<madeinkobaia> Ok, I will check that.
<DarkEra> ok :)
<zequence> DarkEra: nice work on the music
<zequence> I haven't heard much of it yet, and usually I only need to listen a few seconds to get a picture, but your music seems to have arrangements that have such a big impact on the big picture, that one needs to listen to at least a good part of it to get an idea
<DarkEra> zequence, thank you very much :)
<DarkEra> and those were made on a ps1 and 2.... go figure :D
<DarkEra> loads of work with only a game controller i tell you but it was fun to do
<zequence> Some kind of tracker program?
<zequence> I've never seen anyone make music on PS before
<zequence> A friend was using his Amiga once
<zequence> We even were able to record short samples with it
<zequence> Or, was that on a Atari, I forget
<zequence> A tracker program anyway
<DarkEra> on the PS 1 i had a program called Music 2000. You could create clips by clicking on it so that a window opened just like a midi editor.
<DarkEra> the other one on the PS 2 was called MTV Music Generator iirc
<DarkEra> both also contained ready to use samlpes and you had oneshots etc. to create your own stuff
<DarkEra> bbl, seems like i'm needed here :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : See you
 * DarkEra is back
<madeinkobaia> My turn, bbl
<madeinkobaia> :)
<DarkEra> doh.... lol
<zequence> I've been talking to the ExTiX guy
<zequence> He's been under the impression that the symbol was the Ubuntu COF, and had never heard of Ubuntu Studio
<DarkEra> zequence, oh yeah, i almost forgot to ask about that
<zequence> I still haven't got any confirmation if he's going to replace the wallpaper or not
<zequence> He says he's been using it for the past two years
<DarkEra> i only noticed it when i saw the new release on DW. We'll see what he's going to do then.
<zequence> I wish someone could tell me the story behind the Ubuntu Studio circle of friends. We really should document it
<zequence> astraljava: What do you know about the Ubuntu Studio circle of friends symbol?
<zequence> who made it, for starters?
<zequence> Once in a while you'll read about people who think the kernel can affect audio sound quality
<DarkEra> hmmm?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-02
<Len-nb> zequence, I expect that by 14.04 (for sure) but hopefully for 13.10, we will be including ardour 3. One of the changes from a2 to a3 is midi style.
<Len-nb> I understand that a2 did not record midi, but it did use it for timing and sync purposes.
<Len-nb> However, a2 used alsa midi ports but a3 uses jack midi ports.
<Len-nb> The reason sited as stability time wise.
<Len-nb> Many of the applications we ship can create alsa. jack or both styles of midi ports.
<Len-nb> However, most default to alsa.
<Len-nb> I would like to know how the team here fells about defaulting to jack style midi ports for our applications.
<Len-nb> s/fells/feels
<Len-nb> I would like to try to have at least our whole audio workflow for music production use applications that talk jack-midi.
<DarkEra> morning
<zequence> Len-nb: Debian Wheezy will be released some time this week, and after that, things will start to move along, as far as Debian packaging goes, so A3 will appearn shortly. I will need to start working on syncing that stuff
<DarkEra> heya zequence and smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Hey
<DarkEra> how are you doing buddy?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: :)
<zequence> Hello guys
<smartboyhw> Hello zequence:)
<smartboyhw> Hello madeinkobaia:)
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :)
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Is there a necessity of kubotu in here? It feels rather awkward
<smartboyhw_> astraljava: ^
<zequence> smartboyhw_: You seem to be the person using it most. You don't like him?
<zequence> ..or, it
<smartboyhw_> zequence: I don't see any necessity. I only use it for s/a/b/ purposes
<smartboyhw_> jussi reported that it was astraljava who wanted the bot.
<jussi> no, astraljava has been around long enough he might remember...
<zequence> I don't see why we should bother removing it. Doesn't bother anyone, I don't think
<zequence> jussi: Do you know who made the Ubuntu Studio COF?
<jussi> COF?
<zequence> jussi: Circle of Friends. The symbol
<jussi> no.
<zequence> Some guy is using a wallpaper with it for his Ubuntu based distro, and that got me wondering, what is the legal status of that symbol anyway. First, I'd just like to know who made it :P
<smartboyhw> zequence: What did I miss? 
<smartboyhw> I heard about the COF but missed a big part of it
<zequence> smartboyhw: Check out the screenshot for this http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=07834
<smartboyhw> zequence: I do know the original story:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: Then I don't think you have missed anything
<smartboyhw> zequence: I thought you are asking jussi about who drawn it 
<smartboyhw> But I can't hear the answer
<zequence> I haven't got any answer to that yet
<zequence> As soon as I do, I will document it on our wiki
<zequence> And work out something with madeinkobaia on how to do this in the future too
<smartboyhw> zequence: Oh
<zequence> My email filter is almost ready. But, I'm too much of a wimp to try it out without testing a debug version first :P
<smartboyhw> zequence: :) BTW how are we going to document the hist of Ubuntu Studio? That requires going through logs and mailing lists' archives o_O
<zequence> smartboyhw: It would be nice to do taht
<zequence> smartboyhw: You are free to start doing it, if you want
<DarkEra> bbl :)
<jussi> smartboyhw_: consider talking to luisbg, _mma_ joejaxx, ttoine et al who were here before
<smartboyhw_> jussi: Heh only ttoine is here nowadays
<smartboyhw_> doing merchandise stuff
<jussi> smartboyhw_: just because they are *here* doesnt mean they don't exist...
<jussi> rather *aren't*
<zequence> The Ext* guy is going to change his wallpaper in a month or so
<DarkEra> zequence, that's good to 'hear'
<DarkEra> :)
 * DarkEra is feeling bored
<zequence> I decided to try and fix my email filtering today, as I have time to do it, but the tools are too stupid
<zequence> I'll need to learn IMAP, and how the library is coded in order to get my filtering to work the way I want it to
<madeinkobaia> Hi all, zequence, about witch wallpaper you're talkin' ?
<zequence> madeinkobaia: http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=07834
<zequence> Check the screenshot
<madeinkobaia> Don't see the interestet to do that, any dumb can create his own wallpaper, that takes few minutes... :P
<zequence> madeinkobaia: He thought the symbol was the Ubuntu COF, and had never heard of Ubuntu Studio
<madeinkobaia> Ok, I understand now ; )
<DarkEra> kinda weird he never heard of ubuntu studio looking at how long his project is active. I mean 5 years is long enough and i'm sure he watches DW too.
<madeinkobaia> Well no big deal anyway...the COF is a peace and universal symbol, no ?
<zequence> I suggested he should join Ubuntu Gnome, as he's clearly into Gnome, but the response was, he works alone, as he always had
<zequence> Some people are like that, for one reason or another
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, yeah, i think so too but we still try to figure out if the logo is protected by copyright and who created it
<madeinkobaia> I already search on that, maybe its in my bookmarks. Will take a look...
<zequence> I was unable to find anything about it on google. Dry as the Sahara desert
<DarkEra> lol... yeah
<madeinkobaia> Yep the detailed about Ubuntu license are here http://www.ubuntu.com/trademark-policy, few years ago I already searched about the author of the COF without success, its a classified information :D , so the license for COF and Ubuntu branding is for (be simple) a CC BY-SA license...
<zequence> Yes, but that's the Ubuntu version
<madeinkobaia> SA = Share a like, so the derivative ahve the same license ; )
<madeinkobaia> Normally.
<zequence> The Ubuntu Studio is clearly derived from the Ubuntu COF, but is it actually a derivative?
<zequence> While you can see the similarities, I doubt one could make a court case of plagiarism
<zequence> By that I mean, it's different enough to have it's own license
<madeinkobaia> That have sense. Do we know who have created the Ubuntu Studio logo ? He could answer better than me.
<zequence> I was going to ask ttoine, if he happened to drop by. Once I fix my email filtering, I'll send him an email
<madeinkobaia> Yep, with have some work to do on that to. I mean, it would be great to have an historical of the team and main contributors (also for graphics). Also we need to have a clear vision of the licenses we will apply.
<madeinkobaia> More info on the Ubuntu COF here : http://design.ubuntu.com/brand/ubuntu-logo
<zequence> Ok, finally, my filter is doing some actual filtering
<zequence> I've got 2000+ undread mail
<zequence> unread*
<DarkEra> cool :)
<madeinkobaia> =-O
<DarkEra> ah, finally some more room to type
<DarkEra> 2000+ unread mails is a lot
<zequence> Most of it is just bug reports, changes in repos, etc
<zequence> All though, it's not the full story
<zequence> I've already made stuff read that I don't need to read. keywords decide whether something from a mark_read_list should be marked unread
<zequence> And, I've filtered mail from 1st of January this way
<zequence> So, 2000+ mail that I need to go through once
<zequence> But, some days I do get 200-300 mails. And might even get more in the future, as with this filter in place, it won't be too much work to adjust things
<DarkEra> that's awesome
<zequence> ..which will let me be brave enough to subscribe to more mail lists
<DarkEra> lol :D
<zequence> I will test it with gmail too later
<zequence> If things work out ok, I'll publish it
<zequence> Should be usable as a work mail filter system
<zequence> For developers
<DarkEra> that would be great
<len-1304> zequence, the application menu icon is copyright by Scott, but I don't know if that applies to the COF itself
<zequence> len-1304: That's strange. I kind of thought it was older than that
<zequence> I mean, before Scott became involved
<len-1304> I was looking at it when we moved it to the icon meta
<len-1304> It may be that he didn't know who it was and felt it needed something
<len-1304> But I would have put ubuntustudio rather than my name if it was me.
<zequence> Well, we don't know yet who made it. I'll ask Scott too, if ttoine doesn't know
<DarkEra> the logo itself is indeed older than that, i know it since 2007 when i first tried the 7.04 release
<len-1304> Also that is just the icon, not the design
<len-1304> I have only been around since 11.04 ish
<DarkEra> ah, i see. To be honest i have been distro hopping around for many years and used Ubuntu for to most of the time though. Then after the 11.04 release i kinda moved on to various distro's but now i'm back home. The circle is complete. :)
<len-1304> Looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialFeisty shows the same COF as far back as that... Including an icon so I don't know why we needed to remake one.
<zequence> I've been somewhat involved since 10.10, or before
<zequence> Remake one?
<DarkEra> To tell you the truth... all the negative vibes on the web and the people who complain a lot about Ubuntu (flaming/bashing) drove me back here. And of course my interest in music did this too
<len-1304> zequence, Ya, I think Scott had to remake the icon... I am assuming it was lost?
<DarkEra> i believe they remade the logo to let it fit in better with Xfce... could be possible
<len-1304> Icon should work with any DE
<zequence> len-1304: I don't think that was the reason. I'm sure it was just an update of it. It's still the same COF
<DarkEra> we could ask Scott maybe
<zequence> My filtering is processing one mail at the time. Up at 90'000
<len-1304> zequence, could be... I personally can't see any difference :), but I just see thge form I am not a detail person.
<DarkEra> getting the pieces together for documentation will be a long process i believe :D
<zequence> len-1304: Actually, I'm not sure it's that new either. The icon theme might have had it for longer than that
<DarkEra> zequence, 90.000?
<zequence> I was away for 11.04, and I remember Cory was around for a little while
<len-1304> Ya he was.
<zequence> He might be responsible for some art work as well
<zequence> Mail nr. 100'000 now
<zequence> I have all my mail in the INBOX, since 1st of January
<len-1304> Our artwork wiki only goes back to Feisty
<zequence> Yeah, I've gone through pretty much everything that one can find there
<zequence> The wiki hasn't been well looked after for many years
<len-1304> man power
<zequence> Lack of organization
<len-1304> that too, but it is hard to organize without the people to do it.
<zequence> Well, you only need one apparently
 * zequence is referring to himself
<zequence> But, it's a lot of work for one person
<zequence> The biggest work is in the beginning though, creating a form for it
<zequence> Then you just need to update, and add
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-03
<smartboyhw> Damn build failure of our first saucy image. 
<smartboyhw> What the hell? Saucy's daily image is even smaller than Raringâ¦
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Ping
<zequence> smartboyhw_: pong
<smartboyhw_> zequence: So, as per jussi's suggestion, should we send out an e-mail to former Ubuntu Studio members for some history of Ubuntu Studio?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: If you are willing to work on this, you should feel free to do so, yes
<zequence> smartboyhw_: If you want some feedback or help, just let me know
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Em I thought you would:P Should we draft up some EOL announcement for Ubuntu Studio 10.04 & 11.10?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: I have plenty of things to do already
<smartboyhw_> zequence: And I have a full load of tests and exam coming up:P
<smartboyhw_> Next week 6 tests s***
<zequence> Seems like no one has the time then
<zequence> If you find this item imporant, I would document it for later
<smartboyhw_> zequence: OK. Maybe I can do the EOL thing
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Please do. It sort of falls within your responsibilities as release manager
<zequence> smartboyhw_: If you don't have time, do tell. School is more important
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Yep. Speaking about history, sounds like there's a gap. In the TeamStructure wiki, After the final edit in 2008 there was an edit in May 2010, then it was your edit as ailo.at in May 2012 :O
<smartboyhw_> May 2010 -> Sep 2010
<zequence> The wiki has seen very little organizational effort probably since 2008
<zequence> I've done work on it in periods, during 2012 and 2013
<smartboyhw_> zequence: I rather want to see if madeinkobaia and/or DarkEra want to do the history part:P
<zequence> smartboyhw_: You could add a workitem for it somehwere in the blueprints
<zequence> Seems to fall in under documentation
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Shall do. Heh, sounds like the Studio team was quite messy in Oneiric cycle (looking at their release notes)
<zequence> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/topic-ubuntustudio-documentation
<zequence> I accidentally duplicated all my mail 4 times
<zequence> Took my filtering the whole night to finish
<smartboyhw_> zequence: lol. In the blueprint, why do we have "Release Team Meeting Minutes" in the whiteboard?
<zequence> Now it works, at least. And mutt has a nice ability do delete duplicates --- IMAP Hell
<smartboyhw_> minutes -> info
<smartboyhw_> I don't think the "Release Team" needs meetings zequence, you mean the whole team?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Not written by me, most probably
<zequence> Don't worry about it. It's old, and needs to be reorganized
<zequence> ..when I get there
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Ohâ¦
<smartboyhw> zequence: Check your mailbox. Hello DarkEra:)
<DarkEra> heya guys
<zequence> smartboyhw: One of my favorite virtues is being short and concise. I would prefer a EOL notice that simply stated the pure facts
<zequence> A B have reached EOL. This means that these releases will not be receiving updates or support after <date>
<zequence> something like that
<zequence> DarkEra: Hi
<DarkEra> zequence, how about replacing the menu icon logo with the new blue white logo for saucy
<zequence> DarkEra: madeinkobaia is our art lead, and the plan is that we work out something nice for 14.04
<zequence> He will lead the work towards that
<zequence> This might mean all artwork will be updated
<zequence> Anything from logos to desktop themes
<DarkEra> that's awesome news, thanks for letting know
<zequence> 13.10 could include updated art as well, if there is any, and we feel it would be ok to do that, but the big goal is 14.04
<zequence> Actually, I'm putting all my effort on 14.04, and seeing 13.10 more as a chance to try things out
<zequence> Considering the discussions before 13.04 release, on the prospect of rolling release, I'm not fully confident there will be a 13.10
<DarkEra> 13.10 will be released, i don't think that Mark will switch to a rolling release at all
<DarkEra> afaik he wiped the idea off the table
<DarkEra> i'm looking forward to what we can try out with 13.10. 
<zequence> It's not really up to him though
<zequence> But, considering there was already a change in reducing support, it might not be such a hot topic fro 13.10
<zequence> While, what happens after 14.04 is again not certain
<DarkEra> hmmm... true
<zequence> I seem to have a german keyboard layout for mutt
<zequence> y and x have traded places
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK
<smartboyhw> zequence: So what paragraphs you wanna delete?
<smartboyhw> zequence: Ubuntu did say they will not put in many features into 14.04 LTS
<smartboyhw> zequence: Should we ask DarkEra to try to work on the history?
<DarkEra> LTS were always a collection of new features of the previous releases that got more polished
<zequence> You guys are probably talking about Unity as far as LTS goes
<zequence> Not the same as Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: What I thought is that we need to have a usable prototype version of new apps in 13.10
<smartboyhw> zequence: ^
<zequence> We don't need more planning efforts right now
<zequence> We need more people working on development
<zequence> There's plenty of things to do already
<zequence> When I get there, I'll work some more on the blueprints
<zequence> Right now, I'm learning mutt
<DarkEra> mutt?
<smartboyhw> zequence: You think I should try to reference https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2012-October/000165.html? And what is mutt?
<zequence> mutt is an email client
<zequence> cli program
<smartboyhw> zequence: Oh
<DarkEra> i see, it sounded familiar
 * smartboyhw likes GUIs for e-mails
<zequence> GUIS work fine, if you have the application on your client machine, unlike me
<zequence> Besides, you can't script google mail
<zequence> mutt + imapfilter is what I'm trying to get together right now. I'm planning a sort of developer setup, which makes keeping track of hundreds of mail lists easier
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you want my advice, make it as short as you possibly can. I hate reading text for no reason
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you want my advice, make it as short as you possibly can. I hate reading text for no reason
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Try to view the doc again, I have shorted it.
<smartboyhw_> *shortened
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Looks fine. I would make it shorter still, but now I find all the text informative and having a specific purpose
<zequence> ..which is the important things
<zequence> IMO
<smartboyhw_> zequence: \o/
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Plz suggest a subject for that announcement (short enough):P
<DarkEra> zequence, anything i can get into this evening as preparation on the development involvement?
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, EOL announcement?
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Yep for 10.04 LTS and 11.10
<smartboyhw_> 9th May
<DarkEra> Ubuntu Studio 10.04 LTS and 11.10 reach EOL 
<DarkEra> done :)
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: zequence may want shorter (dunno)
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, 10.04 and 11.10 EOL
<DarkEra> :P
<zequence> DarkEra: What's you status on OS installs? Do you have a permanent install space for the development release?
<zequence> DarkEra: At this time, you should be able to upgrade to 13.10, by doing: sudo do-release-upgrade -d
<DarkEra> zequence, i have 3 partitions on my laptop, one of them i use for testing as i did the last time. :)
<zequence> DarkEra: Well, testing is different. For testing you want to use a clean install of the latest Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> DarkEra: For development, you just want the development release, no matter which desktop system
<zequence> So, you'll need one partition for each
<DarkEra> zequence, no problem, i can easily set up a 4th partition
<zequence> The reason why you want a separate dev platform is that you can have your stuff on there for longer periods
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Srsly, does DarkEra's suggestion work?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Sure. A titel is just one line. And the one DarkEra suggests says the facts very plainly, no chance for confusion
<smartboyhw_> zequence: First long one or the second short one?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: This looked good to me "Ubuntu Studio 10.04 LTS and 11.10 reach EOL"
<smartboyhw_> OK
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Just think like this. If you are the reader, will you understand what the text is saying? And, when it comes to the body message, is it informing me of what I would like to know?
<DarkEra> zequence, we'll chat later on again. I need to get to the postoffice before they close and do some shopping
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Yep
<zequence> DarkEra: Later then
<smartboyhw_> I just want confirmation:P
<DarkEra> laters guys :)
<madeinkobaia> Hi all, I added a "box banner" for the 13.04 release out, you can see it here : http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art/view/head:/ON-AIR/ubuntu-studio_box-banner_1304_01_by_madeinkobaia.png
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: awesome!
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Thanks :) Looks like a core processor no ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: It does:)
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, wow, that one looks awesome
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Thanks mate.
<DarkEra> :)
<madeinkobaia> :)
<smartboyhw> :)
<DarkEra> i changed the menu logo on my machine by the way, using the logo from G+
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Cool : ) 
<madeinkobaia> be back later : )
<DarkEra> ok :)
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, dunno if you guys can see it this way if not i'll upload it elsewhere: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G2nrFq6fZiY/UYOotzZkkrI/AAAAAAAAAtI/RX37QDxXeAU/w245-h340/newubuntulogoinclude.png
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: I like the original one more than yours
<smartboyhw> Feels more simplr
<smartboyhw> bbl, sleep
<DarkEra> it's all a matter of personal taste of course. But i was thinking to follow the other buntu derivates and their logo's. Trying it just for fun
<zequence> DarkEra: There hasn't been much focus on artwork for the last cycles, and historically, I don't think there ever was a perfect unitification in the artwork either. I think using that icon would have made sense for 13.04, but as for the future, I think that depends on what we have in a few months time, as far as new artwork is concerned
<zequence> I would like a unified thematic experience for anything Ubuntu Studio, desktop theme, website, social channels, banners, etc..
<holstein> is dick still the art lead?
<zequence> holstein: No, madeinkobaia is
<DarkEra> i'm totally in for that so i agree zequence 
<zequence> I haven't heard from dick in a long time. Don't think he's been involved at all since before the release of 12.04
<DarkEra> zequence, just to make sure... since i'm assigned to the ubuntu studio desktop gnome, is it necessary to develop that package on ubuntu gnome?
<DarkEra> hi holstein 
<holstein> DarkEra: o/
<zequence> DarkEra: We'll base the list of dependencies on ubuntu-gnome-desktop
<zequence> DarkEra: We only need to work with two sources, seeds and the meta package
<zequence> DarkEra: But, before we do, you need to get a development installation first, and set up ssh and gpg keys
<zequence> DarkEra: Let me know when you have a dev install ready, and we'll go from there
<DarkEra> i'm a total newbie in this and very excited too to see where and how far i can get :)
<DarkEra> zequence, then i'll go on and install ubuntu studio and upgrade uit to saucy
<zequence> holstein: You can check out madeinkobaia's stuff on our social sites. He made the banners for the G+ and facebook pages
<DarkEra> i will do that this evening for sure
<DarkEra> one thing i hope for is that i can get a desktop pc this year so i can use the laptop for development and testing
<holstein> dual boot...
<DarkEra> triple boot already :
<DarkEra> :)
<zequence> I have octo, I think
<holstein> sometimes, i just install to an external drive... a big USB stick, or a hard drive.. whatever
<madeinkobaia> zequence said "I would like a unified thematic experience for anything Ubuntu Studio, desktop theme, website, social channels, banners, etc.." I am completely agree, its a huge work but its an essential thing to work on graphics, GU,etc with a global vision. IMO
<madeinkobaia> "GUI" 
<madeinkobaia> not GU ;)
<DarkEra> i understood what you meant :)
<madeinkobaia> holstein : Hello : )
<DarkEra> switching to the netbook and start working on the partitions on the laptop, brb
<DarkEra2> zequence, had a bit of a delay. So far i installed 13.04 on a partition and upgraded to the development release saucy
<zequence> DarkEra2: Alright. Let me check the next step
<DarkEra2> ok
<zequence> DarkEra2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupDeveloperEnvironment
<zequence> DarkEra2: Basically, at this point, you need to create a gpg key and a ssh key
<zequence> DarkEra2: The gpg key is your virtual id, which you use to sign stuff. It's your personal signature
<zequence> DarkEra2: You will need to sign the launchpad code of conduct with it later
<zequence> DarkEra2: Any debian package source you want to upload to a PPA needs to be signed with that gpg key
<zequence> DarkEra2: The ssh key is only for accessing source. It's like a key to a lock
<zequence> ssh is a protocl for remote connections
<zequence> You can use it to connect to another machine, if it has a openssh server installed
<zequence> It's encrypted too
<DarkEra2> ok, i see. I'll read the page and follow the steps :)
<DarkEra2> if anything i'll ask 
<zequence> Please do :)
<DarkEra2> zequence, what to put at Comment?
<zequence> DarkEra2: Anything you want
<zequence> DarkEra2: But, you don't need to, I guess
<DarkEra2> so it also could be my nickname
<zequence> If you like
<DarkEra2> :)
<zequence> DarkEra2: Initially, the gpg key is not going to be too serious of a thing for you. You just need it in order to use launchpad, and make debian packages, but later on, if you get more serious, it is like your real ID. In order for someone to accept your source to Ubuntu repo, they need to have met you in person, and signed your key
<zequence> And at that point, you don't want to be changing it anymore
<DarkEra2> ah yes, i read about that two days ago iirc
<DarkEra2> i'll be back in a bit, our son woke up
<DarkEra2> ok, back. Just sent the key
<zequence> DarkEra2: I updated that page to include instructions for setting up three more things: Debian variables, bazaar and git
<zequence> One can have a lot of good use of ~/.bashrc for setting up variables, and aliases
<DarkEra2> zequence, ok, gonna read that too
<zequence> So, once you're done, you might want to back up at least your gpg and ssh keys, but also ~/.bashrc if you want to start tweaking it further
<zequence> DarkEra2: The gpg key will end up in ~/.gnupg/ and the ssh key pair in ~/.ssh
<DarkEra2> i guess i still have to wait a bit before i can continue. Could take up a hour or so after sending the ID
<zequence> DarkEra2: You can complete all the other stuff. You only need to wait for the gpg to be published in order to get it uploaded to launchpad
<DarkEra2> ok, cool :)
<DarkEra2> zequence, sorry but i'm stuck a bit. What to type after Enter file in which to save the key
<zequence> DarkEra2: The ssh key?
<zequence> DarkEra2: There should be a default option, which means you only need to press Enter
<DarkEra2> oh, that's all? Ok, thank you :)
<zequence> DarkEra2: I updated the page again to include how to finish setting up the LP account with gpg, ssh and signing the code of conduct
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupDeveloperEnvironment#Finish_Setting_Up_Launchpad
<DarkEra2> zequence, ok, thanks. By the way.. do you ever sleep? You are a busy guy for sure :D ;)
<zequence> DarkEra2: I'm not half as busy as I would like to be
<zequence> Sometimes one finds ways to be busy without getting anything done
<zequence> The only thing missing now is a good list of packages one should install. Development tools, and so on.
<zequence> I'll try to put together some tools for this later on, so one would only need to install a single package to get all but the personal keys and configs
<DarkEra2> zequence, on Set up git you forgot a " i believe in the example: git config --global user.name "Kaj Ailomaa
<zequence> DarkEra2: Yep. Fixed it now
<DarkEra2> cool
<DarkEra2> right, so far i'm done i think. Now it's waiting on the key to get published
<zequence> DarkEra2: Try refreshing the page. There's some more on it now, probably
<zequence> DarkEra2: How to finish up the launchpad account for instance
<zequence> There's a table of contents at the top
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-04
<zequence> DarkEra2: I'll have to leave you now, but once you have the code of conduct signed, next time, I'll show you the sources involved in the desktop stuff, and you can start working on it
<DarkEra2> zequence, ok cool :)
<zequence> DarkEra2: Probably the first thing you want to learn is how to prepare a package for PPA. It's not difficult (when you know it)
<zequence> Editing the sources is also very simple
<DarkEra2> we'll get there for sure, it takes some time and patience
<zequence> DarkEra2: Good night. See you tomorrow
<DarkEra2> good night zequence and see you later
<DarkEra2> and thanks for all the help
<madeinkobaia> Bye all, see you zequence.
<smartboyhw> !testers-ubuntustudio-devel is <reply> That item needs testing! zequence, len-1304, Len-nb, smartboyhw, DarkEra please do some testing!
<smartboyhw> Damn wrong
<smartboyhw> !testers-#ubuntustudio-devel is <reply> That item needs testing! zequence, len-1304, Len-nb, smartboyhw, DarkEra please do some testing!
<smartboyhw> Better
<smartboyhw> !ubuntustudio
<ubottu> UbuntuStudio is a collection of packages for the artist who wishes to use Ubuntu as their Digital Audio Workstation. It contains all the best Audio/Visual components from the Ubuntu repositories. For more info and install instructions, join #ubuntustudio or see http://ubuntustudio.org
<smartboyhw> Good:)
<smartboyhw> !contribute
<ubottu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<smartboyhw> Meh, we should update the links
<smartboyhw> With thr Studio ones
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, need to do the ones in #ubuntustudio too... maybe first
 * Len-nb is off to bed
<smartboyhw> Len-nb sure
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra:)
<DarkEra> good morning smartboyhw :)
<DarkEra> i believe everything is set up, even CoC is signed
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: gd
<zequence> DarkEra: Create a directory for source repositories. Something like ~/repos
<zequence> DarkEra: Then to beging with, you could check out the source for ubuntustudio-meta and the ubuntustudio seeds
<zequence> You'll also need the Ubuntu Gnome seeds to get the list of dependencies for the Gnome desktop
<zequence> So, in repos, do: apt-get source ubuntustudio-meta
<zequence> DarkEra: Then, cd into ubuntustudio-meta* and check out debian/control
<zequence> Later, you'll need to create an entry for ubuntustudio-gnome-desktop
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think I have falktx's work to copy for KDE:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: That's probably not a good idea
<zequence> smartboyhw: He does custom work, which is not avilable in our repo
<zequence> smartboyhw: The idea is we do as little maintanence as needed
<zequence> smartboyhw: That is why basing on Kubuntu is a better choice
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK then
<smartboyhw> I mean I have the DE to copy
<zequence> All though, I need to have a closer look at these desktop metas to decide for myself, what is actually important and not
<smartboyhw> Not the apps, IIRC
<zequence> smartboyhw: What do you mean? Artwork, and so on?
<smartboyhw> zequence: Basic DE structure only
<zequence> DarkEra: Seeds for Ubuntu Studio https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
<zequence> DarkEra: DarkEra Seeds for Ubuntu Gnome https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.saucy
<zequence> DarkEra: To get the Ubuntu Studio seeds: bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
<smartboyhw> zequence:We ARE still using our own artwork right?
<zequence> DarkEra: To get the Ubuntu Gnome seeds bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.saucy
<zequence> smartboyhw: Of course. What are you talking about?
<smartboyhw> zequence: Forget it.
<smartboyhw> LOL
<zequence> smartboyhw: I suggested to falktx_ that he could work on a KDE version for Ubuntu Studio, but he was not interested.
<DarkEra> zequence, sorry was away from keyboard. Seems like Mrs.'s wants to go outside for a walk so i'll start working on that later this afternoon buddy.
<smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
<falktx_> zequence: hmm, it was not that
<zequence> DarkEra: Yeah, I won't have much time today until the evening myself. Just check back into the logs later
<falktx_> zequence: I am interested on a KDE US version, but it's not possible
<falktx_> because for a proper KDE dedicated to audio, KDE needs to be patched
<falktx_> or the packaging modified
<falktx_> modifications that I'm sure Kubuntu won't like
<smartboyhw> falktx_: Oh.
<zequence> falktx_: I forget what it was, but did this have something to do with pulseaudio?
<falktx_> I'm the opinion that you either do something right, or there's no point on doing it
<falktx_> zequence: yes, pulseaudio mostly
<DarkEra> zequence, sure thing. Same here, in the evening or  night is better when everyone is asleep and i have my piece & quiet :)
<zequence> falktx_: If you are right, you should be able to prove it by argumentation, in which case no one could prove you wrong
<zequence> falktx_: And, that would mean your suggestion would be wanted
<falktx_> you're free to ask kubuntu guys if it's ok to remove pulseaudio support from their packages
<falktx_> I'd love to know what they answer to that...
<zequence> falktx_: So, in your mind, there is no place for pulseaudio support at all?
<falktx_> there is, but one that doesn't block it from non-usage
<smartboyhw> zequence: I thought pulseaudio was the default in Kubuntu
<falktx_> ie, qtmobility package needs pulseaudio to work right now
<falktx_> but it could be made to work with ALSA
<falktx_> kmix needs pulseaudio to work, but it could be made to work with alsa too
<zequence> falktx_: Can't it be made to work with both? If PA is not present, then..?
<falktx_> and several packages are like that
<falktx_> zequence: nope, if PA is not present, software crashes or stops working
<zequence> falktx_: What I mean is, can't someone code it that way
<zequence> falktx_: I don't see why anyone would object to that
<falktx_> I don't see why either
<falktx_> but it has been done that way, not sure why...
<zequence> falktx_: Maybe you could do that?
<smartboyhw> falktx_: PA is in Kubuntu I think
<falktx_> it's not a easy job, and would take quite some time
<zequence> smartboyhw: I forgot what the problem was. It has to do with PA being forced onto KDE, not that it is used as default for Kubuntu
<falktx_> for me, my quick solution is to remove pulseaudio support and go with just alsa
<zequence> falktx_: Someone would need to at least suggest a policy for that. Otherwise, noone will care
<falktx_> zequence: kde is focused on pulseaudio, and some things don't work ok without it
<falktx_> developers don't really care afaik
<smartboyhw> zequence: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/raring/release/kubuntu-13.04-desktop-amd64.manifest
<DarkEra> wasn't phonon the default in kde?
<falktx_> too many specs already, I think most kde decided to go with pulse
<smartboyhw> PA is in there
<DarkEra> kinda sucked when they removed it
<DarkEra> ok guys, chat ya all later again. Seems i'm forced outside :D
<zequence> DarkEra: See you later
<zequence> I'll need to go too
<DarkEra> o/
<zequence> falktx_: I'll make a note of the sound server problem. One of my goals for 14.04 is to be able to set the system to pure jack usage, for the audio enthusiast.
<zequence> As a settable option. Not default
<falktx_> zequence: sounds cool
<falktx_> zequence: I already have the Cadence 0.8 version released, I'm just writing some docs to go with the release announcement
<smartboyhw> zequence: falktx_: You mean we should rm PA from US KDE seeds
<falktx_> smartboyhw: no, we should patch KDE packaging and software
<falktx_> smartboyhw: kmix for example, it should *always* use the ALSA mixer backend, and never the pulseaudio one
<falktx_> when you have JACK running, a pulseaudio mixer is useless
<smartboyhw> falktx_: Heh. Let me ask the people if it is possible. (I am a *new* Kubuntu Member after all)
<falktx_> you can't control the main volume, etc etc
<falktx_> smartboyhw: ah, cool. I forgot that
<falktx_> I think this is one of the many reasons Ubuntu should have some per-variant repos
<falktx_> so that for example US could change specific apps to use JACK instead of ALSA or Pulse
<smartboyhw> falktx_: Heh I am not supposing people to remember
<zequence> I added a workitem for it in blueprints https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-s-desktop-kde
<zequence> Would be good to get a good overview of the problem and also check with the Kubuntu devs 
<smartboyhw> zequence: I saw (via e-mail)
<falktx_> zequence: note that very soon I'll be super busy, now that I have my projects mostly done I'm looking for a real job...
<smartboyhw> zequence: You want to hope into #kubuntu-devel with me?
 * falktx_ wishes writing FLOSS apps could be a full-time job
<smartboyhw> falktx_: Good luck
 * zequence wishes there were plenty of FLOSS devs, so that he could focus on making music
<smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
<smartboyhw_> Hello madeinkobaia:)
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw_ : )
<madeinkobaia> How are you ? :)
<smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: Great!
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_ : : )
<smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia and zequence: Someone posted a new wallpaper for Ubuntu Studio!
<smartboyhw_> Meh, we can include many wallpapers in 13.10
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_ : For sure, if its quality enough, we could add it. Where is this wallpaper visible ?
<smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: http://tmt78.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntustudio-wallpaper-358922939
<smartboyhw_> You don't subscribe to our G+ community?
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: For sure, I even did the banner :P But I don't see nothing related to that...
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: Otherwise, thats a very good wp.
<zequence> Nice WP in deed. Maybe something for the wallpaper collection for 13.10?
<madeinkobaia> zequence, smartboyhw_ : My opinion is favorable ! :D
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: Where did you saw the information about this wp ? I don't find nothing : (
<smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: Ubuntu Studio G+ Community
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: Ops, sorry I get it now :)
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_ : Ok, my notifications was desactivated for the community.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Heh
<len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw, Re. DE variants and PA etc. While there is a place for not having PA running, in general the desktop experience needs it.
<len-1304> rather than fix all the mixers, it may be better to just not ship them.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, ok
<len-1304> My thought is that we have a mixer that is generic.
<len-1304> Most of the mixers default to PA right now, but some of them can be forced to deal with HW from the commandline.
<len-1304> I would suggest that trying to make everything desktop work with jack or ALSA would be a much bigger pain than dealing with PA properly.
<len-1304> The audio community has a historical view where PA was bad 3 years ago and so it must still be bad.
<len-1304> PA is still not perfect, but it is very usable from 13.04 and things that would make it better are on the list with the PA devs when they have time.
<len-1304> USing ALSA as the desktop backend IMO would be a worse problem than PA because 50% or more of the good audio IFs are non-ALSA FIRWIRE devices.
<len-1304> I would suggest that being able to disable the PA-jack bridge on the fly would do as much as shutting down PA would do.
<len-1304> This is also easier to do.
<len-1304> Also, if PA is used at all, pavucontrol still needs to be around.
<holstein> !minimal
<ubottu> The Minimal CD image is very small in size, and it downloads most packages from the Internet during installation, allowing you to select only those you want (the installer is like the one on the !Alternate CD). See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD
<holstein> !register
<ubottu> Information about registering your nickname: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat/Registration - Type Â« /nick <nickname> Â» to select your nickname. Registration help available by typing /join #freenode
<zequence> len-1304: I think the problem you see is not the same as falktx described on KDE, where many applications were forced to use PA over alsa, and using no PA would make them crash or not work at all (that is the picture I got from falktx)
<zequence> But, sure, the mixer problem is an interesing one
<len-1304> zequence, desktop audio is PA
<len-1304> there is really no getting around that
<len-1304> Either people want desktop audio or they don't
<len-1304> Re doing every piece of desktop SW to not use PA doesn't make sense
<zequence> len-1304: I still think we are talking about two different subjects
<len-1304> How so? The topic at the time was DEs
<zequence> len-1304: PA is one audio server system. jack is another, and also ALSA. Making sure there is support for more than one is not a problem for anyone
<len-1304> I don't know of any proaudio app that uses PA aside from audacity/LMMS
<len-1304> I am not sure ALSA is a server so much as a device IF
<zequence> You can run apps using pure ALSA, so it must be
<len-1304> That doesn't make it a server.
<len-1304> If we want to use Jack as the DE sound server... it needs a layer much like PA.
<len-1304> The needs are not the same for the two kinds of apps (pro consumer
<zequence> len-1304: Let me ask you. Are you opposing something? What are you arguing for, or agains?
<len-1304> The ALSA IF, PA and Jack all fill a roll
<len-1304> I am suggesting that when we include other DEs trying to make everything work without PA is a lot of work and probably not worth it.
<zequence> It's up to whoever wants to do it. It won't cause a conflict for anyone
<len-1304> Both gnome and KDE originally had their own sound server, because ALSA had short comings.
<len-1304> Jack does not fill that gap either. PA at least is common to all of them (unity included)
<len-1304> If someone wants to do these things fine, but US should not be thinking of them as "must haves"
<zequence> We're not abandoning PA in any case
<len-1304> Ya, it would break too many things
<zequence> The questions was never on the table to begin with either
<len-1304> I know there are a number of people who Hate PA, not only because of problems they have had with it in the past, but because they do not like the author
<zequence> I don't care about the politics. I only care about making things work, and that you can do what you want to do
<len-1304> The way things were phrased made it seem as if it was being said that the only way to include KDE was to redo any audio app that needed PA
<zequence> The way it was phrased was that since there seems to be an interest for adding alsa support for some apps, that should be looked into
<zequence> Had nothing to do with removing support for PA
<len-1304> I would prefer to have a set of audio apps that do not need KDE/gnome/unity/XFCE to work, but still work well with all of them
<zequence> Also, US is not one entity. I'm not sure where the lines should be drawn. You need some kind of driving force and vision, and that is something I will try to give during this next year, but I also feel that it's a do-ocracy, where people should feel free to do what they want to do, as long as they aren't breaking stuff for other people
<len-1304> I guess I was reading more into lines like this:
<len-1304> <falktx_> you're free to ask kubuntu guys if it's ok to remove pulseaudio support from their packages
<len-1304> Than are meant.
<zequence> Well, I was never going to suggest doing that
<len-1304> He also meantioned Kmix as an example. I don't know that is a good replacement for pavucontrol. I would much prefer to have a proper ALSA mixer and pavucontrol no matter what DE is installed
<len-1304> I guess what I am saying, is that we need to be careful where we put the line as to what is needed in each DE package
<zequence> IMO, no existing mixer is a good all round mixer. I'd really like to create one for 14.04
<zequence> One to rule them all, so to speak
<zequence> One that recognizes what is installed, and/or running
<zequence> Users should not need to know what is under the hood. It's a major pain in everything concerning audio
<zequence> It might have been better if there was only one audio system, which was flexible enought to suit everyones needs
<zequence> The user just wants to start their applications, set levels, and do routing
<len-1304> Sounds nice
<len-1304> It should not be that hard to at least detect ice1712/echo/rme/FW and start the right mixer for those.
<len-1304> QAS is the best of the bunch I have seen so far, but it is not as good as it should be.
<zequence> I never considered that approach actually. Just a generic mixer where the controls would change depending on what was running
<len-1304> PA tries to do that by controling PA instead of the card
<zequence> But, since some cards do benefit from special mixers, it would make sense to add them to the mix
<zequence> HW levels are always needed, sure
<zequence> And if not all visible, at least accessible from one control interface
<len-1304> Yup, and alsamixer while mostly complete is not GUI and not easy to understand.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-05
<smartboyhw> zequence: So, what are the results of len-1304's argument? ;P
<smartboyhw_> Hmm, I can't seem to find the Ubuntu Studio trademark on patent offices' website
<smartboyhw_> And as far as I can tell, project lead changes:
<smartboyhw_> Feisty-Interprid: Cory Kontros
<smartboyhw_> Meh 
<smartboyhw_> zequenceâ¦ You seriously can't remember when Scott became lead?
<smartboyhw_> And BTW, sounds like the team liked a lot of meetings in the old days:O
<smartboyhw> Welcome back everyone
<falktx> Okaeri!
 * falktx is trying to learn japanese
<smartboyhw> falktx: lol. sulimase
<falktx> watashi wa Filipe desu
<zequence> wakarimasen
<smartboyhw> zequence: Meh
<smartboyhw> zequence: I actually thought of one thing: We don't have enough marketing
<zequence> smartboyhw: We don't have enough of a lot of things
<zequence> Debian was released today, btw
<zequence> Ah, no.Yesterday
<smartboyhw> zequence: Yep.
<smartboyhw> zequence: I am thinking of it post-14.04
<smartboyhw> bye
<smartboyhw> zequence: Anything I missed?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Get yourself a cheap ARM computer, like Raspberry PI, add a irssi chat client on it, and log in through ssh. It'll log everything, and you'll never miss a thing, or you check the logs online. But, to answer your question, no, you didn't miss anything.
<smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
<len-1304> smartboyhw, I think we agreed we need a better HW mixer
<smartboyhw> len-1304: OK
<len-1304> In other words the KDE, Gnome XFCE etc metas should not include the mixers.
<len-1304> In fact I guess we already that with xfce
<smartboyhw> len-1304: Mmm hmm
<len-1304> Even with our xfce DE that we ship now. we don't try to make it a "full featured" Desktop. We don't include an office... even less than xubuntu for example
<len-1304> I haven't played with KDE for a long time now. I used to use it back when I was using Slackware though.
<len-1304> For me, KDE, Gnome, Unity and even xfce have more than I need in a DE
<len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw, I am thinking that our current desktop seed/meta needs to be split into two or made optional when we figure out how to do that with ubiquity
<len-1304> That way the installer can have a Ubuntustudio with only one DE and not have xfce
<smartboyhw> len-2
<smartboyhw> len-1304: Aren't we?
<len-1304> on the other hand, if we always include xfce, and it is the best tested. we can always have a user login xfce as a trouble shooting step.
<smartboyhw> len-1304: zequence: Maybe we let users choose their DE after the installation. We have Xfce as an backup, and we can tell them to install DEs whatever they want
<len-1304> Right now with what we have, that is the only way.
<len-1304> We have yet to get to the ubiquity programing :)
<len-1304> If we grow our team enough, installing only one DE should not be a problem.
<zequence> len-1304: The plan is that if the user has internet during installation he/she will be able to choose between our different desktop metas, and choose not to install our default, which is the one based on XFCE
<len-1304> If we keep the DE components we do install, stock, then people can still get help on the DE irc/forum 
<smartboyhw> zequence: Heh, then I rather want alternate ISOs. :X-(
<len-1304> zequence, in theory we should be able to include them on the ISO.
<smartboyhw> len-1304: That might be even bigger than a DVD size
<zequence> len-1304: I think size is a problem, if we were to include Unity, Gnome3, XFCE and KDE all on the same ISO
<smartboyhw> It would be catastrophic disaster:P
<len-1304> We already include many of the KDE and gnome libs, it may be less than we think.
<len-1304> It would be worth trying and find out. Remember, we are not trying for full features.
<smartboyhw> len-1304: You try:P
<len-1304> The metas have to be there first :)
<smartboyhw> len-1304: After we created it, yoy try.
<smartboyhw> :P
<len-1304> first thing after an LTS :)
<smartboyhw> len-1304: Cheers
<len-1304> We were all surprised at how small the KDE libs were when we added kdenlive.
<len-1304> they were too big in terms of trying to keep CD sized, but not once the size limit was removed.
<len-1304> however, having said that. There are already people who are less than pleased with the DL time for our current ISO
<smartboyhw> len-1304: It is impossible to carry that many applications in a small imageâ¦
<len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw, this is new ground for us (or maybe anyone), starting with a DL at install time makes the most sense.
<zequence> The default DE will continue to be XFCE until we decide otherwise
<zequence> So, the ISO will have it for the live session
<len-1304> Yup, I fugred that
<smartboyhw> len-1304: I would want netboot ISOs thenâ¦
<len-1304> *figured
<len-1304> smartboyhw, they are always available.
<smartboyhw> len-1304: For default Studio imagesâ¦
<smartboyhw> LOL
<zequence> the netinstall works for any flavor
<zequence> We don't need our own
<smartboyhw> But we need live
<smartboyhw> And we need Xfce
<smartboyhw> Grre
 * smartboyhw almost had the mind to stop supporting other DEs at all
<len-1304> The kubuntu ISO right now is still less than 1G. from xubuntu experience that has close to 500M of stuff we already include. Also it would imagine it includes KDE apps we don't need as well.
<len-1304> I would assume it incldes the KDE office apps for example
<smartboyhw> len-1304 yep
<smartboyhw> len-1304: But we will need to test for every release if it works
 * smartboyhw hasn't even started on upgrades yet
<len-1304> That was my comment earlier about growing the team and keeping DE apps stock.
<smartboyhw> len-1304: I'm not sure if I can test any image if it has so many DEs in images
<smartboyhw> The download time will be huge
<len-1304> The metas would be included on the ISO but not istalled
<len-1304> zsync is your friend.
<smartboyhw> len-1304:  I tend to forget where I put the jmage
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> len-1304: Is that possible?
<smartboyhw> I'm not sure if we can keep packages without installing it in our livefs
<zequence> adding Kubuntu is about 763 MB when installed. 196MB of archives. It includes Libre Office. So, on the ISO, it might actually be pretty small after all
<len-1304> Less work to find it than DL load a new one. I have mine on a drive I don't mess with but can mount. I have a script that does the zsync
<len-1304> ubiquity is supposed to be able to install things on the ISO but not part of the live session.
<zequence> It's quite possible to have packages on an ISO that you don't install
<smartboyhw> Anywaays, we need to create it out first
<smartboyhw> metas
<len-1304> Gnome should be smaller
<zequence> Gnome and Unity both are a little bit less
<len-1304> gnome and unity share libs as well
<zequence> 600+ MB when installed
<smartboyhw> archive?
<zequence> Yes, Unity is based on Gnome after all
<len-1304> They also use some of the libs xfce uses... I think
<zequence> If we are lucky, adding all the DEs will be something like 500MB on the ISO
<zequence> xfce uses a bunch of gnome stuff too, yes
<zequence> but, there are still major differences
<len-1304> Our apps do too.
<len-1304> Yup
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
 * len-1304 realizes he will have to install all 4 DEs on his machine to make the menus work :P
<DarkEra> heya len-1304 
<zequence> There may be a problem with wine, when upgrading from 12.04 to 13.04
<zequence> sorry, 12.10 -> 13.04
<DarkEra> hi zequence 
<zequence> DarkEra: Hi
<DarkEra> zequence, sorry but i couldn't get much done yesterday. But so far i set up a repo folder in home and downloaded the ubuntustudio-meta package in there last night. At the moment i'm a bit busy but should have time later this evening so we can continue with the rest.
<zequence> DarkEra: to begin with, I'd just like for you to see what the sources are, which files are going to be edited
<zequence> DarkEra: Not a big deal
<zequence> DarkEra: When you get there, get the seed sources for ubuntustudio and ubuntu gnome
<zequence> DarkEra: bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
<zequence> bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.saucy
<Len-nb> zequence, is gmidimonitor supposed to be added to the seeds as well as the menu?
<zequence> Len-nb: Yes, we'll need to add it to the midi utilities menu
<Len-nb> zequence, I am pretty much finished adding it to the menu, I can drop it in the seeds as well.
<madeinkobaia> Hi, for those who are on board : )
<DarkEra> hi madeinkobaia 
<madeinkobaia> Hi darkera, how are you buddy ?
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, tired but doing fine. How are you?
<DarkEra> i'll be back later though, 30 minutes to a hour or so
<DarkEra> just checked in to see if someone highlighted me :)
<madeinkobaia> Ok, see you darkera : )
<DarkEra> ;)
<madeinkobaia> ^^
<DarkEra> there goes my dev night i planned... sigh
<Len-nb> zequence, holstein, others who more audio than other stuff :) Should we try to include something better than the xfce alsa mixer?
<Len-nb> should we try to get a good mixer done in time this release?
<zequence> DarkEra: Don't worry. There will be plenty of more nights to be obstructed ;)
<Len-nb> have any of you tried qasmixer?
<Len-nb> is it enough better than the xfce mixer to put it in?
<DarkEra> zequence, i know buddy but i really want to get into this. I have a little girl here who woke up and refuses to get back to sleep... lol :)
<DarkEra> Len-nb, i never tried it and even never heard of qasmix :)
<zequence> Len-nb: I'm not against adding it to the mixer menu anyway
<Len-nb> I was thinking to replace the xfce mixer, but if we make the metas optional install this could leave a non audio install with no alsa mixer... though maybe pavucontrol would be ok
<Len-nb> zequence, I added it to the menu some time ago, but I could also add it to the seeds
<zequence> Len-nb: Yeah, that's what I meant. Meaning, we add it, and it's accessible from the menu
<Len-nb> Ok I'm in there anyway, I'll do that.
<Len-nb> DarkEra, qasmixer actually. it does what alsamixer does but with a gui
<DarkEra> i just noticed i made a typo.. lol. Thanks for the info Len-nb :)
<Len-nb> It is more comprehensive than most gui mixers and includes all alsa controls it can find
<DarkEra> cool
<DarkEra> i was about to google for it
<Len-nb> There are three apps qasmixer, qashctl and qasconfig
<Len-nb> aside from the mixer there is a control by control app and an alsa config editor
<zequence> one problem we still have is that someone should go through the entire workflow, and really get down and dirty with what is avilable, and what we could/should use
<Len-nb> ya, but I am not it. My workflow is very simple.... I don't do enough KB stuff (midi) to know that aprt
<Len-nb> *part
<Len-nb> zequence, have you used kde much? (recently?)
<Len-nb> Gnome puts settings as well as system into their control centre. We could easily do that with xfce and perhaps KDE already does that.
<holstein> Len-nb: i thought we included pavucontrol?
<Len-nb> We do. But it doesn't give a good alsa mixer
<holstein> Len-nb: OH.. i see what you mean
<Len-nb> holstein, when using jack and setting record levels we need something better
<holstein> Len-nb: i have no idea.. i can try something if you want, but i have personally always used alsamixer in the terminal.. 
<Len-nb> It would be nice to have a generic mixer that runs a card specific app if needed
<holstein> Len-nb: agreed
<Len-nb> Such as the Firewire controller or the ice1712 app
<Len-nb> holstein, anyway, I have added qasmixer for now for alsa mixers. It is a bit easier to use than alsamixer for any alsa card I have tried it with
<zequence> There is a gui based alsamixer in the seeds already, though
<zequence> "Audio Mixer"
<Len-nb> Thats the xfce one I think
<Len-nb> It doesn't seem to handle switches that well
<holstein> !info qasmixer
<ubottu> qasmixer (source: qastools): ALSA mixer for the desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.17.2-2 (raring), package size 299 kB, installed size 857 kB
<holstein> Len-nb: qas is fine with me
<zequence> Len-nb: How do you mean, about switches?
<Len-nb> I'm just looking at the two to see if I can explain.
<zequence> The only difference I am aware of is that qasmixer has some pulse controls as well
<zequence> but, we already have controls for pulse
<zequence> the problem is that the pulsecontrols don't have HW controls for alsa devices
<Len-nb> xfce has pulse controls as well
<Len-nb> we don't need that.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-28
<OvenWerk1> zequence: Just installed 14.04 64bit on my new MB. Very happy with it. Everything just works. I opted for an i5 CPU over the i7 as the only differece I could find was hyperthreading on the i7.
<OvenWerk1> I can run the d66 at 16frames/2 periods with just the odd spurious xrun... or I can turn ondemand off and get no xruns :)
<OvenWerk1> I now have a lot more software to explore. The YC20 synth for example, I could not use on my old machine.
<OvenWerk1> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2014-April/097402.html for more details
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Good to hear. I'm sadly behind in what's new in Linux Audio myself.
<zequence> Doesn't seem like Ubuntu wiki has anything notes about UtopicUnicorn yet. No release schedule to copy
<zequence> I created a google calendar for that last year, but never went public with it. This time around, I ho
<zequence> ..I hope it can come to some use
<OvenWerk1> Ya I was somewhat worried because I have heard a lot of people who had things no longer work when they got new HW.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Is the MB EFI capable?
<zequence> I suppose you haven't tried installing EFI before now, anyway?
<zequence> Having to create a special partition for it seemed a bit backwards to me - sort of overcomplicating something, but I suppose it is really the same with MBR. I haven't yet tried dual booting on EFI though
<OvenWerk1> It does but it will pick and choose too.
<zequence> Ok, so it's like my most recent MB
<zequence> It will only give you an EFI option, if the bootable device is EFI capable
<OvenWerk1> Our ISO comes up both ways and I can select how I want to boot it.
<OvenWerk1> haswel chip set.
<zequence> Yeah
<zequence> i think if you boot in EFI, and make a normal install, it should become a EFI install
<OvenWerk1> I don't want my whole disk controlled by it though... so it will have to wait till I have a second disk...
<OvenWerk1> Actually I did install kubuntu on my son's machine with efi.
<OvenWerk1> Just worked.
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, I have to go... the beautiful lady I live with is calling...
<zequence> Sure, but dual booting might be another story. It won't recognize Win8
<zequence> See you
 * OvenWerk1 has no winanyting in the house
<zequence> Well, it's not strictly our field of expertise anyway
<zequence> OvenWerk1: That's one of the things I will bring up for this next cycle - having two ISOs. One netinstall, one tool/showcase
<zequence> So, we need to iron out what the netinstall should look like
<zequence> But, we'll take that discussion when it comes up on the mail list, I think
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-02
<zequence> Finally got a passwd to admin the user mail list. Apparently that David guy has already left the list, so no need to ban him
<elfy> ready for next time :)
<zequence> With knives and explosives ;D
 * elfy is just sorting a temp e-mail address out for you to practice on :)
<cub> I wonder if David's email was taken over because I think I've seen proper emails from that adress before
<cub> or else he suddenly was very unhappy with linux. :D
<zequence> cub: I didn't look through previous posts, but had a feeling I had seen his name in other contests
<zequence> contexts
<OvenWerk1> holstein: did you see the two emails about firewire interfaces?
<OvenWerk1> I think you are the only one who has one...
<OvenWerk1> I think having alsa drivers for firewire is a good idea and these are not supposed to interfere with the jackd FW backend.
<OvenWerk1> I don't know if that means alsa can use the ports at the same time as jack or something else... I would assume either/or
 * OvenWerk1 has to pick up son from school
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-03
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I have one as well, but I don't use it much and don't have it have home
<zequence> Will do some testing though
<zequence> Nice breaktrough
<OvenWerk1> zequence: sounds good. I was begining to think not much was happening ALSA wise. (not just firewire, but in general)
<OvenWerk1> I guess as always the mainstream sound is first. (HDA internal)
<holstein> OvenWerk1: i know, and mine is out on load to test with right now
<holstein> out on loan*
<holstein> im going to try and grab it monday
<holstein> i have 14.04 installed on my production rig
<holstein> i could do some partition to test those alsa drivers.. that would be *great*!
<OvenWerk1> The only thing that puzzles me about alsa/jack and lowlatency is that cpu speed changes cause problems.
<holstein> OvenWerk1: yeah, i disable that..
<OvenWerk1> There must be a counter in use that counts cpu cycles
<OvenWerk1> Me too, I get sub ms latency with it off.
<OvenWerk1> Shouldn't have to though... that is really a bug of sorts... but I don't know where the bug is.
<holstein> OvenWerk1: how much worse with it on?
<OvenWerk1> with it on I get spurious xruns up into 10ms
<holstein> thats about what i have found
<OvenWerk1> I suspect it is one of the kernel timing services.
<OvenWerk1> It is actually worse on my new 4 core system than it was on the old P4 single core.
<OvenWerk1> But with the cpu set to solid speed the new i5 is really stable
<holstein> yeah, driver support is really where its at
<holstein> i have a nice lexicon omega, but, i cant get it below 40ms
<OvenWerk1> USB?
<holstein> yup
<holstein> whic is fine for what i use it for
<holstein> i keep the firewire rig packed up ready to travell
<OvenWerk1> YaI thought I had looked at one
<holstein> i leave the lexicon plugged in all the time
<OvenWerk1> Anything is better than internal... no matter how high a sample rate it boasts :P
<holstein> well, at least it has the connectors i want
<holstein> i bet i get lower latency with the internal though ;)
<OvenWerk1> That is another problem with internal audio
<holstein> but. yeah. i like the lexicon OK
<OvenWerk1> internal HDA get 64frames only with 3 periods is the best I can do with any I have played with.
<OvenWerk1> 128 frames is more stable.
<OvenWerk1> USB has to be the only USB device on a USB bus and that bus has to have it's own irq. On my netbook There was only one USB plug that was stable at 64/2
<OvenWerk1> I have a question with regards to CPU speed. In audio the user needs to be able to set the cpu speed. I am thinking about how best to do this.
<holstein> OvenWerk1: i'll test with you, if you like
<holstein> OvenWerk1: i installed cpufrequtils ? i think it was.. and i have 2 shortcuts on my desktop to run in terminal.. i put in my password, and get what i need
<OvenWerk1> My thought is there needs to be an easy control that can set speed rather than just ondemand/performance
<holstein> its not elegant, but, its what ive been doing, and it works for me
<holstein> OvenWerk1: what about, JACK related? some tickbox that allows JACK to set it when running?
<holstein> thats probably not cool.. 
<holstein> OvenWerk1: but, yeah.. it would be nice if the user could set it
<OvenWerk1> There may be some systems (lap tops?) where performance brings the temp too high.
<OvenWerk1> So being able to set a speed that is steady but not to hot would be nice.
<OvenWerk1> My thought is a dropdown from systray that has some options for speed.
<holstein> OvenWerk1: i like that
<OvenWerk1> The idea of using a password all the time to me is anoying, it should be possible to make it so that is not needed without compromising security
<holstein> OvenWerk1: right?! i always thought that too
<holstein> may be similar to the audio group thing we override
<OvenWerk1> My original thought was to use run levels because I also wanted to be able to shut cron off for low latency work. but I have not noticed any problems with it on my new hardware
<holstein> interesting..
<OvenWerk1> So I think I will make a program in /usr/sbin that needs SU to work but run it with polkit and passwording turned off.
<OvenWerk1> The GUI will be user space.
<OvenWerk1> (in pyqt4)
<OvenWerk1> I already have something like that that changes jack's latency on the fly and enables or not the pulse -> jack bridge
<OvenWerk1> The idea is that jackdbus starts when the session does and acts as the backend for pulse for the desktop.
<OvenWerk1> At low latency pulse streams to it's dummy output and basically idles.
<OvenWerk1> I have two modes with the jack bridge on, desktop and phone use. The second one is low latency with pulse for use with things like skype which is a major use for people doing radio stuff
<OvenWerk1> I set up three non-pulse options for live (lowest latency), recording and mixdown. My plan is to have a config screen that the user can set the latency for each mode with.
<holstein> nice.. i like that
<OvenWerk1> I don't know if there is an easy way to find out what the user's audio IF limits are or not.
<OvenWerk1> I have 4 devices and all have different limits :)
<OvenWerk1> holstein: Why do people think lowlatency = performance?
<holstein> OvenWerk1: i know, right?!
<holstein> OvenWerk1: that guy wasnt ever interested in audio performance, though.. which is fine, but i was treating it like that
<holstein> if he had said "im running a server" i would have always insisted on a server kernel..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-04
<SonikkuAmerica> Finally got VBox up and running. I'm trying to duplicate my mv-$(EFIPARTITION)/EFI/ubuntustudio/-folder-to-$(EFIPARTITION)/EFI/ubuntu/ solution to getting GRUB to actually boot the -lowlatency kernel in EFI mode thing.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-27
<holstein> OvenWerks: i agree about the menu structure.. and getting lost
<holstein> for me, i think the question is, what can be consistent across the DE's, or most of them, with the least about of preperation per DE
<holstein> one place someone can do the setup, and it'll just apply
<holstein> there may be no such indicator or whatever..
<OvenWerks> holstein: yes that is the question. The main menu is no longer consistant across DEs, what do we replace it with? Or how do we fit with what they do, with their theme of things.
<holstein> OvenWerks: do you think the "dust will settle" so to speak, soon? and things will be more consitent?
<holstein> seems like, that would be a goal
<OvenWerks> I don't see unity/kde/gnome ever being "the same"
<OvenWerks> I don't see lubuntu going away from the menu
<holstein> lxqt seems menu like
<OvenWerks> I think for me it will be installing them all and looking for common ground
<OvenWerks> lxqt is lxde next and yes I think so.
<holstein> you think, in vm is enough?
<OvenWerks> I have 5 or 6 partitions of 20 meg or so each.
<OvenWerks> I have never been happy with VMs
<OvenWerks> maybe I am just old :)  (double nickle next month)
<holstein> :)
<OvenWerks> Anyway I can carve off a few more partitions if I need to.
<holstein> i think i'll try VMs.. for space
<holstein> though, i dont care for them either.. and, 3d can be odd in them.. which needs to be tested
<OvenWerks> xfce-panel is a separate application. I have run it in unity before under the unity panel. I have also used it as first app with ssh -Y to give me a menu.
<holstein> handy
<holstein> its not heavy, either.. 
<holstein> xfce panel is pretty snappy
<OvenWerks> it seems to me I did have some trouble with unity can't remember what now.
<holstein> 3d?
<OvenWerks> I did not take time to work it out.
<OvenWerks> I think it got hidden easy
<OvenWerks> This would be about a year and a half ago. Life has made ubuntustudio back burner for a bit.
<OvenWerks> My netbook is starting to fail. I can't see the boot screen (boot blindly) and the display is going blinky. I have not yet replaced the drive where I was doing my dev work because I am not sure it is worth it. But it meant I could keep my wife company and do dev work at the same time. With the android I can be on line (like now) but not develop.
 * OvenWerks should go cook a chicken.
<holstein> yeah, i still have that going on a bit
<holstein> im going to be finished with this house soon, though, and we'll see what i have time for
<OvenWerks> Sounds good.
<holstein> well, theres always something.. but, i want to thin it back out a bit
<holstein> i cant be running around like i am
<holstein> its been nice this week being on tour, with the days open, and being away from home and chores
 * OvenWerks has about 6 mo of "work" left.
<holstein> is that good?
<OvenWerks> I am hoping so, My body has had enough of this work. I walk 10 to 15 miles a day with weight at speed.
<holstein> yeah, thats tough work
<holstein> you building things?
<OvenWerks> It is a big part of why I stopped using the RIC as a bass
<OvenWerks> I delever mail on foot.
<holstein> ah.. thats rough, too
<holstein> 6 months til you retire?
<holstein> you are not old enough to retire..
<holstein> though, i would like an early retirement
<OvenWerks> about that yeah. it will give 30 years I'll get about 60% per mo what I get now.
<holstein> OvenWerks: thats great!
<holstein> and, 100% more free time.. 
<holstein> sounds like a good deal
<OvenWerks> My Yf is just starting her career as a nurse so I will take care of kids and house.
<holstein> well, that aint easy, but its good
<OvenWerks> The house might actually get taken care of with one of us off.
<holstein> i hear that
<holstein> its a lot of work to just keep things straight there
<OvenWerks> yup.
<holstein> alright.. im out.. i gotta drive 10 hours tomorrow and play a show
<holstein> cheers!
<OvenWerks> holstein: later
<DalekSec> Sounds like "fun"
<DalekSec> holstein: Live stream it! ;)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok, so you're going to become a full time Studio developer then? :P
<cub> Good evening (at least here in CEST)
<cub> Anyone tried LIghtworks for video editing?
<cub> Wow, things happened with kdenlive while I was gone
<cub> not so great stuff for US though
<DalekSec> Howdy, cub.
<cub> &quit
<OvenWerks> zequence: fuller than the last few cycles :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-28
<holstein> DalekSec: it wasnt that kind of show
<holstein> more of a tux, sit around and wait.. play a 20's tune.. sit around.. play half a tune.. collect check.. leave, kind of deal
<zequence> Going to do my last ever update to linux-lowlatency
<DalekSec> Last?  Though, that's got to be nice to get that off your hands.
<zequence> DalekSec: Yep. I'm just doing factory work basically, and it's fine until I screw something up which just takes up unecessary time
<zequence> ..and I did screw up my last update, which is why this one will take a bit more time :P
<zequence> Apparently Xubuntu went EOL sunday, but it's not announced yet.
<zequence> Precise, that is
<zequence> I'll soon announce EOL for Studio Precise, and also linux-lowlatency
<holstein> though, the repos will still be up
<holstein> its a bit confusing.. but, its the nature of it, i suppose
<zequence> It's not something we can control anyhow. Probably most people who still use precise do so on servers
<zequence> What was the code name for 10.04? I kind of miss that release though not the Studio version as much. It was blazing fast. 9.04 was it, that was pretty awesome with an rt kernel?
<zequence> 6 years!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-29
<OvenWerks> I think I upped my server to 14.04.... so I can leave it for a while untill systemd is well debugged in Ubuntu. Servers are more effected by system changes.
<DalekSec> 16.04 is a bit off, so everything should be fixed or mostly so by then.
<OvenWerks> ya, that is my feeling. It is new to debian as well I guess... but there are enough systemd disros around outside of debian/ubuntu the problems should be known and easier to fix.
<OvenWerks> I have a script that uses upstart commands that would like to release as part of an app I want to release. I am waiting for an all systemd world first :) (sysv init will still be around though).
<DalekSec> As well as compatibility layers, for a while.
<zequence> Set wanted to become member of a few themes. I'm not accepting him yet, since we don't really know what he can do. 
<zequence> He's in the contributor team though, so we can all work on sources withing that team.
<zequence> s/themes/teams
<zequence> @ubuntustudio at twitter has one byte of followers (256). Worth a celebration, perhaps?
<cub> One byte of followers, yes celebrate! New goal now perhaps?
<cub> Might need more than 12 tweets though. 
<zequence> We should be able to squeeze in a few more, but let's not make our finger tired from typing all needed characters for a tweet
<cub> it will probably be much easier when you get your ubuntu phone
<zequence> Right!
<zequence> I'll just swipe'em
<zequence> (if it has swipe??)
<cub> hehe
<cub> Has anyone followed the change of Kdenlive?
<zequence> cub: You might be the only one daring enough
<cub> I was quite confused when it said version 15 was out. 
<cub> I need to read up on the changes. Seems the version we might be able to continue to use is still only 0.9.10. Not sure what the future will look like. I downloaded Lightworks a couple of days ago but haven't had time to try it out.
<cub> not sure about Lightworks licensing though.
<cub> I'm sort of thrown into kdenlive as I have to help my GF making a promotion video this weekend.
<cub> Gott go though, early morning tomorrow!
<zequence> See you cub!
<OvenWerks> zequence: I saw some comments about the low latency kernel a few days ago. It sounds like not only are you not doig updates but that there will not be a separate package?
<OvenWerks> zequence: Does that mean we will need to add some thing to grub to set the kernel command line?
<OvenWerks> zequence: or am I way out to lunch?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-30
<holstein> why call for contributors, and then, when folks try and join the contributing teams, they dont get to join?
<holstein> that was a mailing list wide call out.. and you are getting responses
<holstein> anyways, im sure you are communicating that to the persons trying to join.. what they need to do to prove them selves, and to whom, exactly, and why and by when
<holstein> zequence: ^
<zequence> holstein: Yes, I am communicating with each person
<zequence> Set is in the contributor team, and a couple of open ones. There's no need for him to be in the dev team
<zequence> Not yet anyway
<zequence> We don't know if ever touched a debian package yet
<zequence> OvenWerks: I only stopped maintaining linux-lowlatency for precise. Since trusty, linux-lowlatency has been merged with -generic
<zequence> So, canonical are maintaining it now
<zequence> We have a small config diff in the main kernel source for creating our package
<zequence> Also, our own debian folder - debian.lowlatency
<zequence> with our own control section, etc
<zequence> holstein: We have the contributor team for a reason - so that contributors can work on source without us having to worry about them messing up our main sources
<zequence> We have enough trouble with out own mess ups
<zequence> Set seems like he could do well, so let's hope he continues to be interested
<zequence> There's a lot to learn before doing any big work, as you know
<zequence> Didn't take him long to prepare a LP account and the keys, which is a good sign
<zequence> Ah, no he's been member since 2011
<zequence> Well, anyway
<zequence> OvenWerks: How about you apply to be Ubuntu member and work on getting upload rights too?
<zequence> There are always people who can assist, but it's nicer being able to do the work yourself
<zequence> holstein: You ever done any changes to a package or a source branch?
<zequence> I know you wanted to learn some stuff in the past.
<zequence> I guess you are pretty busy as is
<zequence> !es
<ubottu> En la mayorÃ­a de los canales de Ubuntu, se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol entre al canal #ubuntu-es; escriba " /join #ubuntu-es " (sin comillas) y presione intro.
<cub> Question for you who know more about packages need and so on, Kdenlive has become an offical KDE application which they inform (among other things) mean: "Since we are now based on Qt5/KF5, you NEED KDE Frameworks 5 to run Kdenlive."
<cub> How will that affect Ubuntu Studio including Kdenlive? Will it pull in loads of KDE stuff, or "just the Framework? And what does that mean?
<holstein> zequence: nothing that worked out.. i was working with scott on a package ages ago
<holstein> that will not be in the scope of my contributions
<holstein> not likely anytime in the near future, at least
<zequence> cub: Not exactly sure, but we are already shipping qt stuff for a lot of apps. Has been mostly qt4 for a while. Guess we'll be shipping both for a while now
<zequence> holstein: Ok. You are more than welcome to start doing it, whenever you want to.
<zequence> It's easier when you have a clear job to do for a package of course
<zequence> One thing I really like with this cheap atom laptop is the battery time. It's about 4h continuous use
<holstein> i miss that with the chromebook.. it'll go for about 14 hours
<zequence> Whoah
<zequence> arm?
<holstein> nope
<holstein> one of the c720's with touchscreen
<holstein> *if* i keep the screen dim, etc.. it really adds up
<holstein> i have literally took my charger out of the house twice for that machine in the 2 years or whatever ive had it
<zequence> I try to keep this screen dim, but it's harder during summer. I use dark theming a lot now, and that actually helps - as long as the text is bright enough
<holstein> this laptop is lucky to get 6 hours
<holstein> which, is and was impressive.. before i had the chromebook going for a while
<zequence> 6h is a lot if you are using it continuosly
<zequence> I get about 4h, using virtual machines, and the usual stuff
<zequence> It doesn't sleep during that time. Not for very long, anyway
<zequence> I'm used to 2h or less. But I haven't had a lot of laptops, and they are usually old when I get them
<cub> I actually bought myself and iPad mini to replace laptop outside the house. Battery time is marvelous
<cub> still, it's iOS though 
<zequence> cub: You are seriously disappointing me now :)
<cub> hehe
<cub> I need Garageband on my bus travels
<cub> no good replacement for Android there
<zequence> Android won't work with its stock kernel, no
<cub> not that I get to use it much anymore since my toddler learned how to use an ipad
<zequence> It's fascinating to see how quickly they learn
<zequence> They don't understand what they are doing, but it works, sort of
<cub> I'll fiddle a bit later on with the latest version of Kdenlive and see how it works. They will do KDe release schedule though with new releases every 4 months
<zequence> I guess you have all heard about the recent changes in MS as far as open source and Linux support goes?
<cub> yeah it's strange and fascinating. My daughter is 2,5 years old and when I was talking about buying new skis (skidor)
<zequence> I thought I recognized their latest work - MS Visual Code
<zequence> It's based on Atom, which in turn is based on chromium
<cub> she said daddy come look, and then pointed at the Blocket app where she had found two pairs, one for me and one for her. I was stunend.
<cub> I saw about Visual Studio, but are they releasing more?
<zequence> Haha
<zequence> They are open sourcing .net and I suppose .asp, and from what I gather they are working on supporting Linux with that
<zequence> So, would make sense if there is more to come
<zequence> https://code.visualstudio.com/Download
<zequence> It's not badly designed for a simple code editor, but again, based on atom - which I like
<zequence> https://atom.io/
<zequence> So weird
<zequence> Wondering about the licensing actually
<cub> exactly
<zequence> I have to give this a try https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/04/msg00012.html
<cub> :)
<OvenWerks> cub: we were actually surprised at how little difference in ISO size kdenlive made.
<OvenWerks> cub: The only thing I am not so sure is a good thing, is that after closing kdenlive, the KDE framework does not go away. It keeps running/using memory.
<cub> OvenWerks, which kdenlive version did make it into 15.04?
<OvenWerks> It makes me wonder how manu other apps leave things alive in memory after use
<OvenWerks> cub: I am not sure... I would have to reboot I think to find out.
<cub> OvenWerks, that sounds bad. I need to compare memory usage with 0.9.10 and the 15.04.01
<cub> no worries, I'll check it on my installation later on
<OvenWerks> cub there is (of course) no visual indicator that the KDE frame work is running, it is just through using ps that I noticed it.
<cub> mhm they assume you run KDE anyhow and will need it running
<cub> Lightworks have still not released the promised open source version, but if/when they do it will be an interesting application
<OvenWerks> yes. I don't know if it would be easy to add a wrapper to shut it off after.
<cub> but wait, OvenWerks did you run Kdenlive in the US 15.04?
<OvenWerks> I have not done that no.
<cub> aha ok
<cub> Anyhow, time for bed, g'nite all!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-01
<zequence> Time to delete my Precise testing machines
<zequence> Debian uses a CD size i386/amd64 hybrid as their installer
<zequence> Would be easier for some people to have that
<holstein> i like those
<holstein> our iso is already so large, it likely doenst matter.. but folks complain about the disk size
<holstein> there are folks in bandwidth restricted scenarios..
<zequence> I started work on CD size. It wouldn't ship any of the workflows, but those would be available to install over the internet
<zequence> cjwatson was helping me, but didn't want to bother him too much as he was having some trouble
<zequence> I'm aiming at having that ready for the next LTS
<zequence> This weekend I'm taking some time to set up some servers at my home for stuff like owncloud
<zequence> Hoping to sync my Ubuntu phone with that. Still watiting for the phone though
<zequence> No idea what happened to it, and BQ has only created a ticket so far
<zequence> Well, I'll be syncing all my devices with it
<zequence> Don't know how reliable spanish mail is. I know Italian mail is not to be trusted
<holstein> i suppose, where you are not interested in discussing removing things, im not really keen on adding things
<holstein> i would say, if a user were here, and actively asking for that, and willing to "go to the mat" for it, and be the major contributor to it, sure.. but otherwise, i dont know that we need another iso
<zequence> holstein: As you yourself said, folks complain about bandwidth
<zequence> The CD size has a clear purpose
<zequence> Even for people who have good bandwidth, but do not want to install the whole thing
<zequence> We need to redo the plugin for meta selection though.
<holstein> sure.. so who is saying they will take care of it?
<holstein> you?
<holstein> i dont think its constructive to add another iso to our setup that the xubuntu team has to test
<zequence> holstein: If you take a look at the sources, you will find that I already am
<zequence> I'm the only one testing ISOs in this team currently, and if someone on the Xubuntu team chooses to help, that is up to them
<zequence> holstein: Really? You who do absolutely nothing are telling me what I should do or not do
<zequence> It's not up to you
<zequence> I don't mind you having opinions. And I will always answer them
<holstein> i didt say it is, or should be up to me
<zequence> For the past two years I've been updating linux-lowlatency every three weeks, sometimes for three different releases
<holstein> if you want to take it on, take it on, and you dont need my permission
<zequence> I've also tested every single ISO
<holstein> if you want to shape a team, you can ask the team
<holstein> and im answering, thinking about resources.. and thats all
<zequence> Who else knows better of the resources than me?
<holstein> if you want to test another iso, thats great.. and i appreciate your work, as do lothers
<holstein> if you want this to be all your show, thats fine.. but, it will likely lead to burn out
<holstein> and, im still not at the point in my life where i can constructively do more than i do, which is really only support
<zequence> And that's perfectly fine
<holstein> so, im not offering to take on any responsiblity or work.. im only discussing the use of resources
<zequence> And it's also fine to come and go, as many will do.
<holstein> which, as far as specific code contribution, is just you and len
<zequence> A new ISO is not that big of a deal to maintain. It's just one more file, and a couple more lines in the seeds
<zequence> ..as long as the packages in the seeds are ok
<holstein> sure.. enjoy!
<holstein> but, its not a team decision, if, you just say "well, here a new thing that we have, that im going to maintain"..
<zequence> First you need a team
<zequence> One that actually knows what is going on
<zequence> But, perhaps we will have that now again
<zequence> And, I'm much better equipped to do my part as well, so I'm actually looking forward to the next year
<zequence> Us being less active the past cycle was only a good thing I think
<zequence> We should have more fresh energy for the next two cycles, and for the next LTS
<zequence> The next version of Debian (9) should see a change in how realtime admnistration is handled
<zequence> I will make sure that it will be really simple to have any Ubuntu flavor get a good working system for audio production, one way or the other
<zequence> And, Ubuntu Studio will be a bonus
<zequence> It is a good distro to have. It has everything in place already. And, that is something you can't get easily on other distros
<zequence> But, the main goal is to make things work on anything Debian based (preferably) - at least that is my goal
<zequence> The work I do for Ubuntu Studio is for making new users have as easy a time getting to know Linux + Multimedia production as possible
<zequence> That in my view is the job that Ubuntu Studio should be doing
<holstein> agreed
<holstein> and, we have quite a negative image
<zequence> Well, people choose to do what they do. Some people could actually help us, and Debian as a whole, if they wanted to. Instead they maintain PPAs
<zequence> Or, their own custom Debian based distros
<holstein> well, i think the question is, can they?
<zequence> Sure
<holstein> and if not, why? and if they just think not, why not?
<zequence> But they don't want to
<holstein> i know, falk cant upload what he does either place, AFAIK
<holstein> i think upstream to debian would be ideal..
<zequence> falktx could easily start maintaining Debian sources
<holstein> i think its harder to do so, than just maintain ones own sources
<zequence> You know how easy it was for me to become Debian Multimedia members?
<holstein> and why? and where can  we step in and address that? 
<zequence> I've talked to falktx about it. But, he's not interested
<holstein> is it financial? the connonical funds are never going to make it to us, and thats fine.. but what about debian?
<holstein> things that go upstream would trickle in.. if debian "just worked" out of the box, the way we needed, then, it would just work here
<zequence> Yep
<zequence> That's what I'm working on
<holstein> but, then, you get to why we have a negative image in ardour
<zequence> Though, it's not easy as far as realtime adminstration goes
<holstein> we cant address that, unless we address rolling it, like firefox
<holstein> but, then, what would get rolled, and why? and what would that break.. etc
<zequence> Ardour people are talking about stuff that happened a millenia ago
<zequence> IMO las and many others have no clue of why they are against buntu
<holstein> well, if i dl fully supported ubuntu studio 14.04, the ardour version is not supported anywhere
<zequence> They don't have any first hand experience themselves
<holstein> we cant, and dont have the man power to support that older version without the help of las, and they dont support the older versions
<zequence> For some reason they like Debian better, but all our packages are from Debian
<holstein> so, is it constructive to *not* included it?
<holstein> to link to where to buy the binary? i think thats  extreme
<zequence> Could be for Ardour the best choice will be something like snappy
<holstein> but, i would like to openly and constructively talk about these options, and realistic outcomes of such decisions..
<holstein> unless, they, (ardour) dont use snappy, and something happens that gets blamed on that version
<holstein> then, it would be the "snappy is crappy" story.. and its another -
<holstein> but, i think that would constructively address keeping the versioning up to date
<zequence> If you ask me, most of that is just a lod BS
<holstein> not that i personally actually want/need a newer version, but, i think folks are used to that.. "you need the latest version for support".. thats pretty common
<holstein> zequence: oh, i agree. but, i get it
<holstein> "its not the current veresion".. its easier than supporting the issue
<zequence> snappy would enable ardour to release the latest version
<zequence> Trouble is, las prefers fedora, or something like that
<holstein> which leads me to the larger issue of support in general
<holstein> if a new ubuntustudio user running ardour has an issue, and goes to #ubuntustudio , which irc is already a niche, and the channel is dead/slow, then they go to #ardour, where, there decision to run ubuntustudio is immediately questions..
<holstein> questioned
<zequence> If you want to talk constructive, it would be more constructive for ardour people to stop trashing distros that they don't use, to stop using hearsay as a library of facts, and just focus on what they do well - namely coding ardour
<holstein> i *did* get loud in #ardour, and i feel like the discussion is better.. way better
<holstein> all it took was asking for facts, and stating that things had been addressed, and please stop the fud..
<zequence> So much fud going on there
<holstein> not a big deal.. but, it takes constant attention.. i feel someone would need to do the same in the forums etc where fud *is* still going on
<holstein> and, there is still some fud in #ardour.. just not as bad..
<zequence> I've been in there too sometimes, trying to steer things up, but it's tough
<zequence> in #ardour that is
<zequence> It was almost getting ridiculous at times
<holstein> it takes a lot of time, for sure
<holstein> its like baby sitting..
<zequence> The best thing we can do is make sure our distro is the best there is. No one can say otherwise.
<holstein> but, i would also like to look at the legitimate issues
<zequence> For that to happen, we need to put some time into it. And he more who work, the better
<holstein> why do folks like kxstudio or avlinux better? what are they able to do that we are not? what  would it take for falk to package for US, or debian?
<zequence> again, falktx could easily package for Debian, but he doesn't
<holstein> he was trying.. and it didnt pan out
<zequence> Also, he could do SRUs for Ubuntu. He doesn't need to be a member of either UBuntu of Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> But, he doesn't want to
<zequence> I don't believe it
<holstein> i dont know the details, but, i havent kept up, since i was discussing with him being a MOTU way back
<holstein> i think its more work than he has time for, to actually do it properly
<holstein> and thats understandable..
<holstein> from both perspectives
<zequence> If he wanted to customize Debian packages to some form that he himself personally liked best, then I'm sure there would be some problems
<zequence> The work we do is not for ourselves, but for the community
<holstein> but, if its a matter of getting 2 or 4 grand together to pay falk for a minute.. we could, as a community, have that discussion
<zequence> falktx has had his anti-PA periods, for instance
<holstein> well, many folks *still* have that
<holstein> and i usually settle the argument by simply asking "when is the last time you used pulse?"
<holstein> the user usually says "well, i dont.. its a pos".. and thats that.. they actually dont look at the options
<zequence> If someone is not being very objective, their work might not be suitable for the larger masses
<holstein> which is fine, but, that opinion can be disregared, at least, at that point.. since, the person has  not collected all the data
<holstein> yup.. but, i think falk is *not* being objective.. but, that might be what the audio specific team would need
<holstein> someone who is looking out for that work flow.. i dont know.. 
<zequence> He has to compromize
<holstein> sure.. but, now, he doenst
<holstein> he can compromise the other way.. for the audio user
<zequence> It's not his stule
<zequence> style*
<holstein> and thats handy.. but, i dont think its the only way
<holstein> seems like there is something more down the middle.. or, with the tools that you are len discuss.. the settings that can tweak what is needed..
<zequence> -controls can help
<zequence> I've actually come a far way with it
<zequence> It's too bad it's taking such a long time
<holstein> seems like, it really could be a place where settings can address what is needed to fix things..
<zequence> falktx would be better at coding it, but I think we are better at figuring out the layout
<holstein> sure.. i want him putting code in as far upstream as possible, personally
<zequence> Not one of his packages are in Debian yet
<zequence> I mean, applications
<zequence> There is one attempt at packaging his suite, but don't know how far that has come
<zequence> He won't do it himself anyway
<holstein> well, i think it may be constructive to try and have that talk.. and see what that takes
<zequence> Sure
<holstein> there is an ubuntu debian liason..
<holstein> i forget who that is.. but, its an ubuntu team member i just heard in an interview
<zequence> universe is mostly Debian. It's what we stand on
<holstein> and, i cant imagine that changing, correct? what do you think
<holstein> i dont think snappy will change that..
<holstein> *if* snappy even comes to the desktop space where we are..
<zequence> Snappy is just another tool. As long as Ubuntu remains open, what was will still be
<zequence> But, if Ubuntu does start to change, it will be very easy to jump ships for all the flavors
<zequence> Debian is another world as far as the community goes though
<zequence> I feel the Ubuntu community is in many ways a lot more constructive
<zequence> I'm sure it depends largely on who you are and what you do
<holstein> well, debian would still be there, but, the ubuntustuduio flavor, if main ubuntu would move away, would be quite changed
<zequence> We could do the same thing, but in Debian
<zequence> Though, it wouldn't be the same of course
<holstein> but, i really dont think thats in the pipeline
<holstein> well, it would be *much* different, though
<holstein> not having a scheduled release to push
<zequence> We are still we. If we continue to work on the same project, much will remain the same
<holstein> not having iso hosting.. etc
<zequence> Debian does 2 years LTS releases. They are calling them LTS now
<holstein> i mean, sure. we are still us, but, with a lot of bandwidth and a brand name..
<zequence> every 2 years
<zequence> Then there's the rolling release
<zequence> Not much of a difference
<zequence> The infrastucture would need to be set up
<zequence> That's a bit of work
<zequence> But, it's far from doable
<zequence> Debian Multimedia is a much different beast from how we do things
<zequence> They do mostly packagin. Not so much work on the big picture, so to speak
<zequence> I think that's a result of decentralization. Has it's + and -
<holstein> im just saying, it would change things.. since, we would have to self host iso's, etc..
<zequence> Either that, or we find a way to be an official Debian variant
<zequence> ..though it's good to think about options, that's of course not something we need to worry about for the next year or so
<holstein> maybe not at all
<cub> just read through the irc log, so Ardour people don't like Ubunbu Studio? How come? Why would they care since you can run Ardour in any linux distro?
<holstein> cub: factually, its hard for them to support
<holstein> they dont support the version, other than the one they support.. so, if the typical user has an issue with ardour, they are running the repo version, which is repackaged ,and out of date
<cub> aha ok
<cub> But wouldn't that be the same for every distro which is not rolling release?
<cub> you still have the option to install the latest version yourself
<cub> And that would kind of be Ubuntu's fault, not US per se
<cub> since we only include what's in the repos
<holstein> cub: yup.. it is the same
<holstein> but, i think ubuntustuduio is just the more popular one that folks go to #ardour about
<cub> sure, since if you want to do audio it's one of the easy choices
<cub> which version did make it into US 15.04?
<holstein> !info ardour
<ubottu> ardour (source: ardour): digital audio workstation (graphical gtk2 interface). In component universe, is optional. Version 1:2.8.16+git20131003-4 (vivid), package size 3541 kB, installed size 13667 kB
<holstein> looks relatively new..
<holstein> but, its not the one they support
<cub> !info kdenlive
<ubottu> kdenlive (source: kdenlive): non-linear video editor. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.9.10-2ubuntu1 (vivid), package size 1462 kB, installed size 5602 kB
<cub> it would be nice to do some work with the community, but not sure how much time I will have available.
<DalekSec> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-multimedia-maintainers/2015-April/043650.html bit of a thread on it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-02
<zequence> DalekSec: Interesting thread
<DalekSec> Thought you'd read it..
<zequence> I didn't know about ardour changing their development method as far as branches go
<zequence> Also, Adrian is pointing out the problem with how the development model of ardour doesn't work with how debian does packaging
<zequence> Jessie just came out, with ardour3, when ardour3 is already EOL
<zequence> The answer could be backporting though
<zequence> ..all though I'm sure las and other would prefer people used their builds
<zequence> Or even doing SRU, since ardour3 is not supported at all anymore
<zequence> But you can't SRU ardour3 with ardour4. That becomes weird
<DalekSec> Well, it makes sense to not include the major version number in the package name, IMO.
<DalekSec> Just like any other software.
<DalekSec> Ah, in the past they had issues with backwards compatibility... I see.
<zequence> Doesn't seem like anyone has reported a bug on the potential file loss caused by the trusty ardour3 version
<zequence> I'm filing one, all though there doesn't seem to be any hard proof of a fix - the ardour people are saying they never found out how it happened, but found some stuff in the code that could potentially cause file loss
<zequence> I'm going to file a bug and start a SRU process for ardour3
<DalekSec> Niiiiiice.  Good luck.
<zequence> Does anyone know how to make a bug only point to certain releases?
<DalekSec> Some people can nominate it.
<zequence> Ok
<zequence> If someone wants to confirm. bug 1450992
<ubottu> bug 1450992 in ardour3 (Ubuntu) "audio and MIDI files irreversibly deleted from disk" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1450992
<zequence> Packages built for testing. Should not be very different from the original https://launchpad.net/~zequence/+archive/ubuntu/sru-testing
<OvenWerks> zequence: the ardour3 in 15.04 is the right one (well, latest one)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yep. I'm going to request it to be synced to Trusty and Utopic
<zequence> Just need to try a build to make sure it works, but should be fine
<OvenWerks> I will go confirm the bug.
<OvenWerks> done
<OvenWerks> This is a problem with the LTS model in audio. Two years is a long time and the audio SW changes a lot in that time (well some of it)
<zequence> Depens on how you see it
<zequence> Firefox is updated continuously
<zequence> We could set up a similar thing for ardour
<OvenWerks> Then it would have to be just ardour, not *3 *4 or whatever
<zequence> I've had problems when using updated version of plugins for an ardour project
<zequence> OvenWerks: It will be, from now on
<zequence> ardour3 will be removed, as will ardour2 and ardour4 will become ardour
<OvenWerks> the calf plugins have problems.
<zequence> So, I wouldn't want to update anything in the middle of a project anyway
<OvenWerks> They look good in their own GUI, but can not be automated properly
<OvenWerks> I have tried both ours and DL the latest and built. 
<OvenWerks> qmidiroute has a bug too, but it needs to be fixed at the dev level :) One of the config values does not reload properly.
<OvenWerks>  I have sent email but not received a response
<zequence> Tried the latest ardour3 on trusty, and it seems to work fine. Will setup bzr branches for utopic and trusty and request merges
<zequence> OvenWerks: Would you be able to spot the bug in the code?
<zequence> Doesn't sound too hard to debug
<zequence> We could do a patch, and then send it upstream
<OvenWerks> I will look... c++ is not one of my strengths :)
<OvenWerks> It was last updated in 2009, which should tell you how often the parameter I tried to use gets used by others...
<zequence> ah
<OvenWerks> Just going through the change log and it looks like a complete rewrite in 2009.
<zequence> I've made merge requests, but the trusty branch has some merge conflicts
<zequence> I'll see what the response is before I do anything else
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-03
<zequence> Let's look at the possibility of supporting ardour4 in the same fashion as firefox is being supported. This will work fine as long as we don't need to SRU required libraries also
<zequence> We just sync the latest tested version from Debian testing
<zequence> Ny email might not be working for a little while
<astraljava> zequence: That ardour thingie sounds good. I might get a nice external sound card from a friend for this laptop, so I could in fact be able to record my guitars ran through a Behringer preamp/effects with that setup. Ardour should be the key to that, I believe.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am able to run ardour 4.0.0 and the nightlies with no problem on 14.04. So it should be doable.
<zequence> At the most we would be able to backport to trusty, but perhaps we can change the update model for that particular application for release X
<OvenWerks> The download from the ardour site is about 10 times the size of the ubuntu package  :)
<astraljava> How can that be?
<OvenWerks> astraljava: the DL from ardour includes any libs a distro might not have. It will work anywhere. They install their own local directory tree in /opt
<OvenWerks> astraljava: That is why most distros want to roll their own version of ardour.
<OvenWerks> astraljava: one would think this would use a lot of extra memory too, but the whole Ardour tree is only 150M which is actually pretty small is even a 4Gram system
<OvenWerks> A lot of the package size concerns are not so much the installed size, but the DL/ISO size.
<OvenWerks> Our ISO is 2.4G (vivid release) so our limit becomes 4G (next up USB thumb drive size) which will also fit a DVD.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if it is wise, but it is probably possible to incluse the packages needed to select any DE without extra downloads and still be within that.
<OvenWerks> It may even be possible to choose which DE to use as the live session DE... but again I don't think it is a good idea. The testing alone is beyond our manpower  :)
<micahg> zequence: OvenWerks: you can certainly use the backports pocket to keep updating ardour for trusty, Firefox has it's special exception mainly for security reasons
<OvenWerks> micahg: I would certainly prefer that to pointing people to the kxstudio PPAs
<zequence> micahg: Most or all of the updates have security fixes. I'd rather update the whole thing than cherry pick single commits
<zequence> Might get really hard to do fixes after a while too, if ardour has changed a lot in the mean time
<micahg> only 1 CVE in the past 5 years: https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=ardour
<zequence> micahg: Well, that is truly a security issue, but I was thinking of things like losing data, etc
<zequence> TBH, I haven't followed ardour updates very cosely. And it doesn't move as quickly as Firefox, or say the kernel
<micahg> well, data loss is certainly critical, but not security, if there's constant data loss issues, it might be better to look to another software package
<micahg> MREs aren't so easy to get either, upstream needs a good track record: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions/
<zequence> micahg: Thanks for looking at the bug btw. I wasn't sure how to go forward
<zequence> I'm sure I could do something better there
<micahg> major issues like bug 1450992 almost certainly warrant updates of some type, whether or not that's a full update I would think would be a case by case basis (jessie will have similar issues after this update, so we can follow their lead)
<ubottu> bug 1450992 in ardour3 (Ubuntu Utopic) "audio and MIDI files irreversibly deleted from disk" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1450992
<micahg> zequence: BTW, I'd suggest trying a full backport SRU since the packaging changes are very minimal for consistency sake, I can upload that a bit later
<micahg> (I didn't look at the changelog for your merge request, so you might have proposed that as well..)
<micahg> that'll also have the benefit of having trusty and jessie in sync
<zequence> No, I didn't, but I thought that might be the best
<zequence> JUst didn't know how to request that, actually
<micahg> Probably a comment in the bug is easiest, since we have requestbackport, it's not really worth a debdiff or merge request IMHO
<micahg> errr...backportpackage
<micahg> I'm test building trusty now
<zequence> ok. I made a comment just now
<micahg> I closed out the merge requests as well, if the SRU team rejects it, I can revert the one packaging change and reupload
<zequence> ok, thanks
<micahg> can you fill out the SRU paperwork in the bug description?
<zequence> micahg: Will do
<micahg> thanks
<zequence> micahg: I hope that is ok. Let me know if there's anything more I can do.
<micahg> ok, I added a note about the backport SRU
<micahg> looks good
<zequence> alright
<micahg> oops, I forgot there were 2 more patches in the packaging changes, but they should both be ok as well
<micahg> I updated the description
<zequence> Ah, right
<astraljava> OvenWerks: Ok nice, didn't think of that. :)
<micahg> zequence: do you care about your name in the changelog, current tools don't make that easy for a backport
<zequence> micahg: Not at all. I assume it will look like in vivid
<micahg> pretty much, ok, I'll upload shortly
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-02
<zequence> sakrecoer: langasek sent a post to the ubuntu-release mail list, and asks flavour leaders to tell which size limits they have for their ISOs
<zequence> DVD is our size limit, according to the various sizes he gives example for
<zequence> Don't see any point in subscribing to oversize notifications. I mean, if we do ever grow beyond the DVD size, we just need to up the size for the release team, if that is a thing still at that time.
<sakrecoer> zequence: thanks! so i'll them dvd size then :) on my way to read that mail..
<sakrecoer> zequence: you suggestion seems wise to me. i'll just write that :)
<sakrecoer> also, need to remember to check that list more regulary
<zequence> sakrecoer: Well, the mail was just sent, and I happened to see it first. But, yes, it's good to keep an eye out posts on that mail list.
<sakrecoer> zequence: :) 
<sakrecoer> also, did my email come through?
<sakrecoer> i've got a few othee flavpurs reply inbetween, but my own.. sent over an hour ago, but maybe the default settings of that list isn't set to deliver to sender..?
<sakrecoer> gah... fingers on the phone spelling is borken
<OvenWerks> After all that fuss with making qjackctl work with qt5, I am noticing that qtractor is still qt4 :)
<sakrecoer> hah! OvenWerks, you, ross and the other guys involved did an awsome job tho! can't remember bigging you up for that!
<sakrecoer> first timne ever i tried it today actualy
<sakrecoer> kindof disapointed that transport control is in an undermenu, but i doubt that is up to you
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: the only thing I really did was say "this package is import and must work"
<sakrecoer> haha :D
<sakrecoer> well, good inception job then :D
<sakrecoer> but regarding the indicator itself, i mean, who starts and stops the server every now and then? i would have put it the otherway arround: transport accessible, and server start and stop in under menu... whatever :D
<sakrecoer> it is a bit weird to, to make the rolldown menu dissapear, you have to press "hide", which i first thought would remove the the entire indicator.
<sakrecoer> clicking the icon again, will open a new roldown menu on top of the other..
<sakrecoer> but i guees should file some bug for that, along with a wish for direct access to transport control
<zequence> sakrecoer: I saw your mail before I replied even, so it must have gone trough
<autumna> *steps in*
<autumna> question about the package recommending. what is our procedure to request a package to be updated? does it go to zequence's "packaging wish list"? or does it go to the what we want in next version list? or both?
<autumna> context is that the font forge package we have in ubuntu seems to be ancient and it would be very good to update it considering we do keep it as one of the default software. 
<zequence> autumna: Anything in the "universe" repository (most of what we distribute) is actually packaged in Debian
<zequence> autumna: I looked into that packaged earlier, and sure enough, Debian has updated it shortly after upstream did
<zequence> We automatically get packages from Debian until "Debian Import Freeze", which happens about 2 months before each release.
<autumna> zequence: wait which version are we using exactly? my understanding was that it was from 2012. it is possible I misunderstood through *double checks*
<zequence> autumna: Upstream (the original authors) did not update it until quite recently
<zequence> Less than a month later, it was also updated in Debian
<autumna> so the recent development just started again?
<autumna> aaah ok
<autumna> well that's better it means we don't have to do anything. yay! :) 
<zequence> usually this happens automatically, so not a big concern for us
<zequence> Yep :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: have we started getting Y daily ISOs yet?
<OvenWerks> I guess so...
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, I think that starts happening as soon as the new cycle is open for business
<OvenWerks> autumna: they do have a ppa: https://launchpad.net/~fontforge/+archive/ubuntu/fontforge
<OvenWerks> I would imagine that is the source for debian (or from).
<autumna> oh I know... (even through they don't have the xenial version in there yet) it is better to get an up to date version directly from install through since it is one of our preinstalled programs
<autumna> zequence: where do you check if a package is updated in debian or not? I think I am looking at the wrong place
<zequence> autumna: Have you isntalled ubuntu-dev-tools?
<autumna> no.. but let me do that. then :)
<autumna> (I had setup beginnings of a dev-env on a virtual box, but that went away during one of the reinstalls)
<zequence> autumna: Once you have, you can use the tool rmadison to see which version of a source package is in which distro and release
<zequence> Like this, for fontforge 'rmadison -u debian fontforge'
<zequence> Remember, that installable packages are binary packages, and may not be named after the source package
<zequence> So, for rmadison, you need to know the name of the source package, from where the binary is built
<autumna> aaah
<autumna> ok, thanks. let me do the install and try it. 
<OvenWerks> ack! can we make zsync default :)
<zequence> Ross really makes things happen on the testing side of things
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-03
<OvenWerks> re: backporting to 14.04... I can't think of anything I would do that with (jackd maybe). I would rather take the line: finish things started with 14.04 with 14.04 as is, but start new projects with 16.06 please.
<OvenWerks> The list of known things not right in 14.04 (off the top of my head):
<OvenWerks> Calf plugins (there is at least one bug that can destroy speakers)
<OvenWerks> EQ10Q plugins, the GUI was broken
<OvenWerks> jackd2
<OvenWerks> Ardour has 1000s of bug fixes since then
<OvenWerks> qjackctl has a new gui that is much more newby friendly as it hides parameters that can get new people in trouble (system not working)
<OvenWerks> zynaddsubfx should be added to 16.10 for sure, even in it's present state, it is a better plugin than yoshimi as it is properly set up to have more than one instance running at a time.
<OvenWerks> By 16.10 the new version might be out too.
<OvenWerks> Most of the things for 14.04 if we were going to do backports... should have been done a year ago. If 14.04 has gotten along with out them so far, no need to start now. I would suggest put that energy into 16.04. The testing will be easier with people here (hopfully) running 16.04 day by day. Testing 14.04 backports will not get done well, just a quick opens,runs does not show any breakage deeper in.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Our users are not used to backports, since they aren't getting any
<zequence> but, it is actually something you can choose
<zequence> It would be good for us to educate our users about that
<zequence> So, that they don't update to backports by mistake, if they were not willing to do that
<trebmuh> OvenWerks, reading at one of your email on a US ML, you might be able to +1 this : https://github.com/calf-studio-gear/calf/issues/22
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-04
<OvenWerks> trebmuh: ya, The problem with Fluid is that it installs the sound font in /usr/share/sounds/sf2/ I don't know how standard that is, but both qsynth and the calf plugin just default to PWD. At least qsynth remembers where you found the soundfont for next open, but the LV2 always opens PWD that the host was opened in. I finally saved a preset and made that preset a favourite. I load the preset and then change to the patch I want.
<OvenWerks> trebmuh: I did add a comment.
<OvenWerks> trebmuh: That is the one calf plugin that is worth using.
<trebmuh> sweat OvenWerks 
<trebmuh> hopefully that will bring it back to the dev' forehead :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-05
<sakrecoer> zequence: i didn't think about it when you closed contact@ubuntustudio.org, but it is the email with which we registered the social media
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, my bad :). It can be temporarily reopened, if you need to change to another email address.
<Rosco2> Hi all - I forgot to write to the list that I am up for discussion at the Membership Board tonight 
<Rosco2> It is on right now - so if you want to join in on #ubuntu-meeting you are welcome
<autumna> sakrecoer: re website personas, Do you want to go with more fleshed out personas, the way you sent mine rather than the stub-ones we have on wiki right now? 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-06
<sakrecoer> \o/ +7 Rosco2
<sakrecoer> autumna: i think what we have now on the wiki is remarkably excellent!
<sakrecoer> you've done a really good job! 
<zequence> Originally under graphics, but I added the missing metas so there's no confusion as to where to put things
<zequence> We don't currently have a perfect "tree" structure for the metas. The audio metas do have the relationship as is in the wiki, but graphics is currently not depending on publishing
<zequence> I have some ideas around that, based on earlier discussions and work
<zequence> Will try to work something out, using more metas than we have now, but to maintain them - we need to tools, so need to revisit my apt source search tool
<autumna> thanks sakrecoer. (and yeah *the way you sent yours* was what i was trying to say. )
<sakrecoer> autumna: i was wondering how that would be used, but it makes sense put together like that. [C[C
<sakrecoer> zequence: i'm inclined to think of book publishing as graphic design, (typography). but i guess that has little to no influence on how the packages are organized. however i can see both Calibre and pdf-shuffler in the graphics menu.
<sakrecoer> i don't think calibre is ment to be used for writing the book itself.
<sakrecoer> i'd be willing to say libreoffice is a tool of choice for the writing of a book.
<sakrecoer> but admitedly, that is just me speculating. i haven't even ever thought about writing one so to speak
<zequence> sakrecoer: Publishing is one thing. And, that is a graphical related work. Writing on the other hand is not.
<sakrecoer> zequence: agreed
<autumna> zequence: thank you for fixing that. completely forgot publishing had a separate package
<zequence> plume-creator is a tool strictly used for creating stories, where you can keep track of characters, items, places and have your synopsis and other stuff in different compartments
<autumna> sakrecoer: for writing libreoffice is great for medium sized documents but when you go novel size you want something that will manage multiple files and notes,that's sort of the point of novel writing software. :) 
<zequence> But, you would be using something like Calibre to create an e-book out of it
<autumna> calibre is slowly turning into ebook's version of blender. *chuckles*
<zequence> Though our metas "audio", "graphics" and "video" all are also freedesktop categories, I regard of them more as workflows.
<sakrecoer> zequence: oh wow! of course, what a thing for writers! very cool
<zequence> With that logic in mind, we could add another one called "writing"
<sakrecoer> that is good idea, although i can't really measure what kindof workload that would represent yet..
<zequence> Writers are interested in tools that both help in them creating the stories, but also in making publications of them, so it would also depend on "publishing" because of that
<sakrecoer> autumna: hehe, nice argument :D
<autumna> :D
<autumna> it is true. both in terms of being feature rich and ridiculously steep learning curve in places and confusion
<autumna> zequence: that is a good point, especially with number of writers self publishing. 
<sakrecoer> yeah, i was hopeing my stepmom would be able to use calibre herself, but that didn't happen
<sakrecoer> anyways her device was not recognized.. :/
<autumna> probably needed to install a plugin. (I can go on more about it on offtopic)
<autumna> but really scribus is not a replacement to calibre I'd argue, even with a plugin
<knome> zequence, sakrecoer: at this point, i'll /part; i'll be around on the xubuntu channels and PM if you need help with the website stuff
<knome> o/
<autumna> just sent an email on the topic. I will be back in an hour or so. :) 
<autumna> *waves after knome*
<sakrecoer> yeah, that email makes a lot of sense autumna 
<sakrecoer> have a nice afternoon!
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett 's polish campaign is getting echo :)
<autumna> *back*
<autumna> zequence: sakrecoer: btw in terms of new meta packages one thing to think about is game-development package (obviously this wouldn't be for 16.10 but further in future)
 * autumna drops the idea and runs away
<zequence> autumna: Keep that in mind. Coding in itself I do not falls under creative work, though it is used to make creative work happen (so, it's kind of hard to categorize that in some ways), and perhaps the other parts fall under "graphics" and "video"
<zequence> You could definitely regard Game Development as a whole as an artistic workflow
<zequence> But, the question is from which angle should we add that to our thing
<autumna> the software that started that thread of thought was twine which is used to create hypertext adventures/IFs it is not graphical (well you can add graphics) it is not coding (although the software allows some macros). Publishing? *cringes*
<sakrecoer> *caugh* blender *caugh* :D
<autumna> zequence: there is a interaction design, level design etc side to game development. there isn't many alternatives to unity and similar commercial engines yet, but as sakrecoer just said blender already has a game engine and there might be more. :D
<zequence> Well, if we were to introduce a meta called ubuntustudio-writing, I suppose it would be quite logical to add one called ubuntustudio-game-development as well
<autumna> *nods* as I said we are not there yet, but just food for thought. 
<zequence> The meta doesn't need to correspond with where things end up in the menu, since the menu does not follow workflows. The menu follows tool types, while our metas could be more towards workflows
<sakrecoer> i'm in favour. although i don't realy know how i could help you..
<autumna> zequence: nods
<autumna> sakrecoer: yeah I am not even sure what help is there now. after I finish my backlog I want to do an overview of what is out there in terms of game workflows outside commerical options
<autumna> commercial* why am I failing in typing today? *sighs*
<zequence> The idea of web site design has also been discussed at times, but there's a similar problem there. But, perhaps we can find a way to integrate that sort of thing as well
<autumna> there could be an argument to a "design" meta?
<autumna> or interaction design meta? rather than splitting it game etc
<zequence> The more we expand Ubuntu Studio, the more important the installer options will be, and finally - a CD size installer will probably be almost a necessity for people who don't want the whole package, but prefer to install what they need over the internet
<zequence> The different metas can absolutely depend on the same packages to a degree, so that is not a problem
<zequence> One package can be in 2-4 different workflows even
<autumna> when you say installer option, do you mean the having a convenient place to add/remove packages? or having a different version of the live cd or both?
<autumna> zequence: with a case such as blender, I don't think there is any way to avoid it anyway :D
<zequence> autumna: The current ubiquity plugin which let's you select specific packages is a bit dull and not easy to work with. It needs to become smarter.
<zequence> autumna: But, also, we need another Image, a smaller one, which only has the live DE and some core stuff, which you can use for testing, and then install the rest over the internet using the installer
<zequence> I've prepared for that already, but have not cracked all that is needed to make that happen
<autumna> *nods*
<zequence> And, my lack of time will make this a long term project, unless someone else can do it
<autumna> I really don't want to commit myself to anything until website and the wacom setup thing is finalized, (unless everyone feels this is a bigger priority)
<zequence> I would say the website is probably the biggest priority for the time being
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> it is my first priority at the moment
<autumna> zequence: do you have any input btw on what has been discussed so far?
<zequence> autumna: I haven't followed the website work so much. But, I'm sure you guys can work it out :)
<zequence> Let me know if there are som pages to look at, and I can give some feedback.
<autumna> right now we are mostly discussing our users and their needs and so that we can build website content based on that.
<zequence> Sounds reasonable
<autumna> :)
<autumna> some of the work we are doing with the personas might actually end up being useful on the meta-package and installer discussion as well
<zequence> I'm not so sure about that myself, though. We can't educate our users using the meta packages. We need to do that with documentation, and the best way is probably doing video tutorials
<autumna> because in a lot of the way, from the user point of view, website and interface we give in the installer, etc are all part of the same flow for the users, and things to be thought in coordination with each other. (something I hadn't realized) 
<zequence> Yes, the categorization of the feature tour, and documentation should in some way follow the metas
<zequence> But, not the menu.
<zequence> The menu should only follow freedesktop categorization, as is meant
<autumna> *nods* oh no I agree with that. 
 * zequence is just mentioning that, because some people have had different opinions in the past
<autumna> re menu I am happy as long as everything is not piling under media players :D
<zequence> I do think that our website could be a portal for education even. Both in the documentation we provide, but also if we would expand the posting of news to include more general things within the FLOSS multimedia world
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> exactly
<zequence> That has been my aim for a long time, but my time was spent more on other things, and we never had a person who was dedicated towards only that, which is almost required
<zequence> At least, we need to get some video tutorials done soon. I'm going to be making a few on the subject of audio in the coming months
<autumna> I don't want us to aim to just create a documentation that will be static with content creation. my hope (and this is getting ahead of the discussion a little but) that we will have a structure with basics in, then have a workflow to steadily add more information and eventually (hopefully bring in our users and other linux multimedia users to write in depth articles)
<zequence> We can always link to outside material too
<zequence> No reason to reinvent the wheel
<zequence> But, for the more basic stuff, from Ubuntu Studio POW, using our menu, tools, and applications, it's good to have some video tutorials. Especially for audio, which is the most difficult to master
<autumna> *nods*
<zequence> Other workflows are more based on learning the one application you want to use
<autumna> there just isn't a lot of information out there. (I do think though is that for graphics people don't realize how much is possible)
<autumna> actually that is not necessarily true. :D
<zequence> Well, maybe not, but for audio you really need to understand the audio subsystems to a degree, or you'll be cursing a lot
<autumna> yes!
<autumna> zequence: believe me I will be the first person to watch those videos *chuckles*
<autumna> I think what is needed actually is more.. like..
<zequence> For graphics and video it may be important to know how to install codecs(also true for audio) and video drivers. Kind of basic stuff, just to get going with your work
<autumna> actually are you thinking more software overview or actually how to do professional audio development using ubuntu studio (e.g. teaching basics that are software independent)
<autumna> because the latter would be super cool
<zequence> I will start by teaching the users how to start simple applications. Just getting jack to work is quite a lot of work.
<autumna> *nods* yes, for video especially, also a review of what various software can do for you. (like most people don't realize blender can do video editing, or what are the pros and cons of various software.)
<zequence> But, perhaps I will do a series on recording and mixing with ardour as well (it's generic, but you also need a good tool to show generic stuff)
<zequence> Or, the basics of audio editing in Audacity
<zequence> ..which is our only included audio editor
<autumna> that would be cool, but what is not obvious to people are also things like: whatis sample rate, what is bitrate. what are the best settings, these things come up across all software. or for example what is reverb etc.. 
<autumna> is there any other good alternatives as audio editor out there?
<zequence> Audacity is by far the most used audio application out there (except for VLC), so for audio editing, there's no reason to present alternatives
<zequence> As for educating the user on 1) digital audio 2) audio processing, that could be done too, sure.
<autumna> (don't get me wrong, I LOVE audacity :D) 
<zequence> We should do a feature definition on the documentation bit, and add things there - what we should create ourselves, and what we should link to from already existing education
<autumna> I think like something focusing on workflow for beginners could really bring in people to ubuntu studio to start and stay with it, beyond "here is a floss alternative" which is tying to something sakrecoer was mentioning other day.
<zequence> No reason to reinvent the wheel, when not necessary.
<autumna> agreed
<autumna> and as I said I think this is a very long term project of perhaps doing series of posts one blog post at a time. sometimes highlighting other resources that exists as you said, sometimes maybe hopefully inviting guest bloggers in?
<autumna> *is excited*
<zequence> IMO, it is quite enough to hilight already existing resources, unless someone actually wants to write blog posts
<zequence> I would not feel I have time for that, at least.
<autumna> it was my plan coming in..
<autumna> :D
<autumna> before you know accidentally getting involved in more technical side of work. 
<autumna> I expect eventually that it might be a dedicated job for somebody to be in charge of that. whoever it may be.
<autumna> well not writing blog posts, coordinating them, but I think linking to existing resources is plenty as well
<zequence> autumna: Yes, we could use someone who is handling the whole PR part, both linking to interesting new stuff, but also writing announcements and keeping in touch with our users (following what they are saying or discussing in regards of Ubuntu Studio)
<zequence> autumna: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UserDocumentation
<autumna> *goes to read*
<autumna> in terms of lmms: there is a terrific youtube series out there, even through it isn't strictly open source software focused
<zequence> autumna: You can just add one there that says something like "using LMMS", or whatever they call it, and link to it
<zequence> But, I guess if the tutorial maker is using something else than Ubuntu Studio, even something else than Linux...
<autumna> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNjV-O4OTSU&list=PLA269719916DB3C29&index=1 (like it is dissapointing that he doesn't use zynaddsubfx - oh ok)
<zequence> Well, it goes under Audio in either case
<zequence> Becomes problematic when including non free tools. You might not be able to id in Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> If you can't follow the tutorial on Ubuntu Studio and do the same things, then it sort of becomes irrelevant for our case
<zequence> I think you should add it anyway. Everything needs to be reviewed before publishing, so just because it ends up on the feature definition page doesn't mean it's going to happen for real :)
<autumna> yeah I'd add it with caveat that somebody must look it over. I don't think he uses anything paid, just vsts. when he could be using the existing synths
<autumna> the style in later season also gets a little.. different
<zequence> I haven't ever tried vst's on Linux, but it is possible to use them - and there are free vst's after all, so we should probably add some docs on that too
<autumna> I do use them, even through usually it is a last resort. right now only one I use is for microtuning
<autumna> because lmms or its soundfont plugin doesn't allow you to do that
<zequence> autumna: To use something else than Western tuning, or just for the sake of microtonality?
<autumna> zequence: to use something other than western tuning mostly. (both middle eastern makam like structure, also it is fun to play with ancient stuff :D)
<zequence> I have done too little of that myself. I do some microtonality, but I use the midi pitch wheel control for that
<zequence> Ok, I have no more time for this today, so going to have to leave things at that :)
<autumna> zynAddSubFx does it.. but that only works with that. midi pitch wheel.. yeah theorically I could use that, but it would get quite tedious. :D 
<autumna> also sometimes nearly impossible if you are playing in real time
<autumna> wait didn't ubuntu studio version of lmms come with vestige?
<autumna> (I guess it didn't. *goes to fix*)
<autumna> (for self**)
<OvenWerks> just a quick note.... I would try to stay away from using the word "Game" anywhere for anything even if there are applications that help game development. My reason being that we may find ourselves having more people on support asking game questions than we can handle.
<OvenWerks> In other words I have no problem with including applications made for making games but I do have a problem with advertising it :)
<OvenWerks> autumna: there are some linux VSTs around, yes. Not very many free ones, but supporting VSTs means that a user can make good use of things they have bought. Showing tutorials that make use of vsts ... I would prefer not. It would be nice to package what free Linux VSTs are available though. http://linux-sound.org/linux-vst-plugins.html has a list. I would not include VSTs where there is a ladspa version... though perhaps if the is a LV2 
<autumna> OvenWerks: yeah I was hesitant to link that tutorial for that reason. but a lot of what is said there can be ported to synths available in lmms. (I am seriously not sure why he just doesn't use the default ones)
<OvenWerks> Bitwig and Tracktion (even linux versions) come as freebees with some audio HW.
<autumna> in terms of games through, I understand your concern, yet games are quickly becoming an accepted art form, so I am not sure if it is worth hiding our support, if anything it can be an asset to bring in more people to use ubuntu studio. (that is one area where it is still hard to find a open source based workflow) and if anyone comes asking question about playing games, we can ignore them. this is not a gaming distro :)
<zequence> As long as we don't start calling ourselves Ubuntu Studio Gaming Studio, I feel like we should be fine
<autumna> lol
<autumna> actually I think we should do that.. once.. on April 1, 2017 ;D
<autumna> there are some cool plugins in that list
<autumna> *eyes the one that makes vsts work with jack-midi (not that jack-midi is that commonly needed)
<autumna> (in my experience at least)
<zequence> alsa midi is next to useless in many situations, especially when dealing with external hardware. It's not even close to syncing. But, unfortunately jack midi only works with firewire devices that have midi
<zequence> (which is ok for me, since I have a firewire device from which to connect to my external synthesizer)
<zequence> There are other issues with ALSA midi too. I hade the same bug in 2 or 3 different sequencers when doing multiple time changes and tempo changes. It would miss some notes for some reason
<zequence> Think it was the first note in a bar, but only now and again
<zequence> Haven't had any issues at all with jack midi so far
<sakrecoer> in my experience, tempo change and midi hate each other... :D
<sakrecoer> even back with cubase and reason, it would never react as programmed..
<zequence> I've worked quite a lot in Cubase with little problems
<zequence> This was in Cubase SX and later.
<zequence> Only time it gave me trouble was when I had about 1h worth of midi, and a lot of it
<zequence> The CPU couldn't deal with it anymore
<sakrecoer> sure, cubase sx was a tank but tempochan was my only problem, specifically gradual changes. abrupt changes had no problem
<zequence> Well, yeah, you need to add the changes per event (like every 4th)
<zequence> (or every 16th)
<zequence> Yes, there was no linear tool for that, I don't think
<zequence> But, it still would work
<zequence> sakrecoer: Did you ever use Sonar?
<zequence> A friend of mine did, must be 15 years ago now. It had some nice features. It's available through Steam now, and is being marketed as the best DAW for game development, coincidentally
<zequence> ..but, still also for general music production as well
<autumna> *listens*
<sakrecoer> zequence: i have used sonar, but only once in a freinds studio
<sakrecoer> zequence, autumna: you guys <3 UserDoc feature definition page looks amazing!
<sakrecoer> promissing start!
<autumna> sakrecoer: it is zequence's work but yeah it is amazing. I will try to think of some stuff to begin listing under graphics category
<sakrecoer> autumna: cool, i'll try to think of some stuff for video
<autumna> :)
<autumna> is editing a menu content, breaking the menu for other people too? 
<sakrecoer> which menu?
<autumna> as an example: (1) go to Menu Editor
<autumna> (2) find LMMS, add an option to its launching command (e.g. instead of lmms now it is lmms -s 48000) 
<autumna> (3) open your application menu to find that all ubuntustudio specific folders have vanished with the exception of "Audio" which only has lmms in it
<autumna> removing the custom menu file from ~/.config/menus reverts the change
<autumna> I mean I am going to file a bug, obviously but how is it managing to break it? *is stumped* 
<autumna> *stumped? confused?*
<sakrecoer> hmm... my lmms has way more in the command as lmms..
<sakrecoer> "env QT_X11_NO_NATIVE_MENUBAR=1 lmms %f"
<sakrecoer> what does "%f" stand for?
<autumna> well obviousy
<autumna> I mean that's there for all of the menu items
<sakrecoer> well, i changed it to "env QT_X11_NO_NATIVE_MENUBAR=1 lmms -s 48000 %f" and nothing broke...
<autumna> check your menu
<autumna> is graphics and video folders still there?
<sakrecoer> right..
<autumna> :)
<sakrecoer> still there, but very much empty
<autumna> ok that's different, I don't have them period
<sakrecoer> no my bad.. they are gone.. 
<autumna> this is so weird, is it even supposed to edit the xml file? I thought the command options were in desktop files.
<sakrecoer> i din't know, but its weird...
<autumna> ok this gets weirder
<autumna> go to ~/.config/menus
<autumna> rename xfce-applications.menu to xfce-applications.menu
<autumna> err
<autumna> *xfce-applications.menu.broken
<autumna> now you have 2 audio folders
<sakrecoer> hehe...
<sakrecoer> yeah...
<autumna> *heh
<sakrecoer> the there is ~/.config/menus/applications-merged/user-ubuntustudio-audioproduction.menu
<sakrecoer> then*
<sakrecoer> i'd say that menu editor is sentient
<autumna> hahah yeah
<autumna> this is pretty funny.. from a bug perspective
<sakrecoer> if i was unhappy with the menu, i would go insane over it :D
<autumna> I do want to add custom options..
<sakrecoer> i generaly pull out an icon to the taskbar, and edit it there.
<sakrecoer> things i use often with special options i want to have quick access to, so taskbar is good for that
<sakrecoer> or maybe its caslled "panel"
<autumna> ah
<autumna> yeah I try to avoid icons on desktop, with whiskers, you can favorite them so that they are in front when you open the panel
<sakrecoer> i hide the panel.
<autumna> so you don't use the app menu at all?
<sakrecoer> i do, but not for the stuff i use everyday
<sakrecoer> actualy since whisker was introuced i barley click, i just use it as a smart terminal
<sakrecoer> type and press enter :D
<sakrecoer> terminal is the best GUI :D
<autumna> heh
<autumna> I do that a lot too
<autumna> I do like to browse to see what is there through.. aaanyway *goes to file the bug*
<autumna> (looks like known bug)
<OvenWerks> autumna: the menu editor that xubuntu ships and we now use I am not happy with :(
<autumna> :(
<OvenWerks> I have not had it remove parts of the menu... but it may do that. My complaint is that (at least 14.04) it replaces the system menu in total.
<OvenWerks> This means that if you install something like wine which adds a menu stub, that will not show.
<autumna> default whiskers does work fine in terms of showing new items for me. it is the editor that seems to be completely breaking it?
<autumna> unless you ran into a different bug then I did I mean.
<autumna> (I had a very similar problem in 14.04 too)
<OvenWerks> The best way (in my opinion) to add menu items is to create a desktop file and add it to ~/.local/share/applications/
<OvenWerks> Not very GUI-ish :P
<autumna> it works for editing maybe, but not really if you need to rearrange things :D
<autumna> (granted I haven't run into a badly placed application in 16.04 so far which, yay!)
<OvenWerks> There are two menu editors available. menulibre and alamode
<OvenWerks> I don't like what alamode does either
<autumna> well for me, one of them didn't work at all, the other one.. well what was said above :D 
<OvenWerks> both editors make assumptions about how the system menu is set up which is based on a stock system rather than the xdg standard.
<OvenWerks> We use the XDG stanard to the fullest :)
<OvenWerks> I found alamode (the last time I used it) changed my menu forever... I could not go back without removing a number of things by hand. menulibre (last time I played) at least took you back to stock correctly.
<autumna> that is true
<autumna> but yeah, I am not sure creating .desktop files counts as a solution. workaround yes but..
<autumna> :)
<OvenWerks> actually ... That is what a menu editor is supposed to do.
<OvenWerks> The last desktop file with any one name is the one that gets used.
<OvenWerks> So the one the user makes should take presidence... if the menu builder is made correctly and the system menu file is built right. (many system menu files are broken - won't be fixed)
<autumna> *nods*
<OvenWerks> studio's system menu file is correct :)
<OvenWerks> I think xubuntu's is now, but I am not sure aboutthe stock xfce one.
<OvenWerks> (KDE is right, gnome is not)
<OvenWerks> lxde is wrong too.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-08
<sakrecoer> anyone has problems with font-manager taking up to 20 minutes of querying installed fonts?
<sakrecoer> both my machines have this issue, on the faster one, it takes "only" 15 minutes... no extra fonts installed yet...
<sakrecoer> bug #1579536
<ubottu> bug 1579536 in font-manager (Ubuntu) ""Query of installed files" process on start-up takes abnormaly long (~20minutes)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579536
<sakrecoer> oh well... it has been at the same version number since trusty. xD "uploaded on 2012-05-10"
<sakrecoer> hm.. searching for "font" and "fonts" in gnome software gives me no results
<krytarik> Debian bug 796817.
<ubottu> Debian bug 796817 in font-manager "font-manager: version 0.7.2 is available" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/796817
<sakrecoer> \o/ you are such an awesome all seeing spider krytarik :)
<sakrecoer> hehe 24 Aug 2015... :'(
<sakrecoer> krytarik: should i just add the link to the debian bug in the comments, or is there any better way do do it?
<sakrecoer> there doesn't seem to be many alternatives for font management out there. i guess it sadly speaks loads of how (un)common it is with people working with typography in linux...
<sakrecoer> that was oddly formulated, i mean, there can't be much demand for a fontmanager :|
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Yeah, since the two aren't necessarily related, just linking to it in a comment with a reference that it's old would be appropriate.
<sakrecoer> thank you krytarik ! :)
<sakrecoer> wow!!! font-manager 0.7.3 is deliciously super cool!
<sakrecoer> it has incredbily well thought sorting capacity. it actualy sorted the full ubuntu studio font collection comprehensibly in just a few seconds like a good robot
<sakrecoer> heh... we have 870 fonts with "unkown licensing" :/
<sakrecoer> it doesn't seem to like CFF fonts very much. 
<DalekSec> Hah, and here I was thinking that I'm not touching the new font-manager, stupid CSDs.
<autumna> sakrecoer: I had the same issue with font-manager! it is a one time thing but very annoying
<autumna> sakrecoer: krytarik: and there is specimen on the repos but it isn't as good
<sakrecoer> autumna: one time? it happens to me on each start up.. and repeats everytime i install a font
<autumna> it happened to me on first launch, then first time I did something that required it to rescan. After that it did quicker rescans on launch which takes a few seconds but not that much
<autumna> I haven't tried installing a new font through
<sakrecoer> ok, maybe i did something that required rescan each time :) anyways, i think most people would never wait that long. i didn't. i forgot about it, and when i came back it worked :D
<sakrecoer> but i forgot about it the 5th time i tried. after having deleted ~/.fonts and ~/.cache/forgotthename and stuff like that
<sakrecoer> DalekSec: what are CSDs? :D
<autumna> sakrecoer: no I was also worried about it a lot and actually did end up looking for alternatives
<autumna> sakrecoer: does the new version still have the same issue?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-04
<OvenWerks> Is it normal for blender to hang on exit in 16.04.2?
<OvenWerks> This is 32 bit and with no blender project loaded.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, Blender quits fine in 64 bit.
<OvenWerks> I will have to try removing the config file on my 32 bit machine... (and make sure the SW is up to date)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-30
<sakrecoer> Congrats on the release everyone!!! <3 
<sakrecoer> anybod here whos into matrix/riot ? it's a foss chat thingy... secure and apretty cool. https://about.riot.im/ i'm asking because i just found out it has a very cool IRC integration. actually it seems freenode is running a matrix server...
<sakrecoer> i figured, since it seems some users are getting confused by IRC, maybe a bridge between a matrix channel and #ubuntustudio-users could be a thing...
<sakrecoer> just putting it here on the table....
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: just remember that this channel _is_ logged
<OvenWerks> I am not sure that fits with matrix ideas or if we want to log what may be happening in matrix.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: well... matrix has got a lot of public chanels...
<sakrecoer> it gives you the possiblity to communicate securly, but it is not exclusively for secret conversations. anyways... it's just a suggestion.
<sakrecoer> if we bridge the matrix channel with the -user channel, we wouldn't need to log the matrix cahnneÃÂ¶, because they mirror eachother exactly: everything written in matri appears in the IRC chan and vice versa
<classywhetten> Hey guys, is there a specific PPA this flavor uses for blender3D?
<ErichEickmeyer> sakrecoer: A lot of the other flavors are using a Telegram bridge these days. I was contemplating making an UbuStu Telegram group.
<krytarik> Yes, it only sucks on the IRC side..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-02
<studio-test-doc1> My name is Rodney Noland. Have been a user of Ubuntu Studio for several years. Kdenlive, Ardour5 and GIMP are favorite apps. I've tested software (non-free) for about 20 years. Before that I was an aerospace Tech Writer. I can do a limited amount of testing. Would love to help.
<ErichEickmeyer> studio-test-doc1: Hi Rodney! Thanks! If you wouldn't mind, please subscribe to the Ubuntu Studio Dev mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel and introduce yourself there. Welcome!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-03
<sakrecoer> ErichEickmeyer: I use telegram too, it came preinstalled on my ubuntuphone. :D i would defenitly join that group. i'll admit, at this point, i'm soon going to have a chat client per contact :D
<sakrecoer> i'm in favour of any bridge that would make user conversation more accesible, as long as their is a good way of logging things, as i understood was OvenWerks concern.
<sakrecoer> my reason being that loggin things publicly makes it searchable... although, i don't think any of my Search engine queries ever have led me to an IRC log... but that's annecdotic i suppose.
<sakrecoer> on another note, i'll write something this weekend to officialize the transition to the council.
<sakrecoer> i'll let you review it first.
<sakrecoer> you=y'all
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: my concern was not about making sure things are logged. From what I have seen that will happen anyway.
<OvenWerks> My concern is that in general irc is not logged and people expect what they say not to be logged. Bridging two services, one that is known logged and another that is assumed not logged could be a problem unless the bridged service (or those who use it) are made aware that it is logged.
<sakrecoer> thanks for clarifying OvenWerks :)
<sakrecoer> matrix channels do support channel topics...
<sakrecoer> this said, not sure it's a priority of any kind, nor if -studio users are actually using matrix
<OvenWerks> And of course, anyone can personally log what is a public channel anyway.
<sakrecoer> good point :) that is my mindset with anything internet, except when calling home via ssh... and even then...  hehe
<sakrecoer> to some extend, it is fair to say we could bridge the user channel with everything available, which would probably be a nightmare to manage...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-04
<ErichEickmeyer> Wow, that was a long 24 hours. sakrecoer, I'll look into that bridge; it seems the Lubuntu and Kubuntu communities are especially on it.
<ErichEickmeyer> Everyone: Perhaps this is just bandwagoning, but it seems as though several of the flavors are dropping 32-bit support. I can see the big advantage of not having to worry about packaging for 32-bit anymore, which would ease workload. Any thoughts?
<OvenWerks> I am not sure we will have a choice
<OvenWerks> we depend on the lowlatency kernel and the kernel people are wanting to drop 32bit as well. I am not sure if lubuntu are building their own or not
<OvenWerks> I suspect ubuntu wants to get rid of all or at least much of the 32bit repo as well with respect to importing new versions etc.
<OvenWerks> The idea was that 18.04 being an LTS would keep 32 bit stuff around for the length of the lts.
<OvenWerks>  I do happen to have a number of 32 bit machines in the house from 1998 till about 2004 ish. The 1998 laptop is very slow and not really in use :) but my server is a P4 (running 14.04 I think)
<OvenWerks> I also have a netbook from around 2010ish that is 32bit that runs fine (better than a P4). It seems that oolder computers were built better and are still running (PATA drives and all).
<OvenWerks> However, there will still be other OSes around for the netbook if I want to upgrade and I do have a 64bit ready  the server.
<OvenWerks> the 32bit deadline is 2038ish  ;) then the clocks roll over to 1970...
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: to keep 32bit may mean supporting the packages on our own.
 * OvenWerks is switching his desktop to 18.04... gotta look for all the dev packages :P
<krytarik> Fwiw, nobody is talking about dropping 32-bit packages off the repo so far - just stopping to build 32-bit installation images.
<OvenWerks> I guess the question becomes: can someone do useful artistic creation with a 32bit system?
<OvenWerks> I know there are already some of our packages that are 64bit only
<krytarik> Well, I would so we should drop once the majority of Ubuntu flavors did - and likely before the more lightweight ones too.
<OvenWerks> On the other hand, there are (were?) a few packages that require 32bit operation
<krytarik> Yes, and multiarch support is still there, of course - and I'd think the maintainer of said packages wouldn't give up 32-bit support on those.. :P
<OvenWerks> hmm, ubuntustudio-controls ends up in the system submenu. Should it?
<OvenWerks> I am thinking that maybe we should have that be in settings
<OvenWerks> Next question: do all DEs have a settings sub menu? That is, how do they deal with settings utilities that are not a part of their own settings widget?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-05
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I never paid attention, but I'd put it in System since, for instance, GNOME has a Settings app as does Plasma. That said, at least in Plasma, one could make a KCM (KDE Control Module) that appears in Settings and links to -controls.
<ErichEickmeyer> This is something that openSUSE does wiith YaST.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I think all DEs have some way of dealing with a *desktop file that shows a Category "Settings"
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I see it showing up in Preferences in LXQt, but I can't find a settings category in Xfce. Could it be that each DE implements it a different way? As we've experienced, not all DEs conform to the opendesktop standard.
<ErichEickmeyer> Also seeing it showing up in LXQt's configuration center. Also to note: LXQt respects our menus.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: preferences would be the same as settings
<OvenWerks> In most DEs, the settings menu also acts as a menu that shows any app that adds itself to tyhe settings category
<OvenWerks> it may also have a set of built in applets for a number of things.
<OvenWerks> Those built in apps are actually rather a hassle becasue they cannot be used aside from their main menu app.
<OvenWerks> this means that if we like a certain settings applet in gnome we can't use it in KDE without bringing in the whole gnome preferences app.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: thinking about themes. At least for the gnome/gtk based DEs, I think choosing the theme separate from DE would be wise. Making sure it is a theme that works both with gtk2 and gtk3 would be a good idea.
<OvenWerks> In my quick look through themes, it apears that the theme is broken into parts in some ways. It is possible to use one theme for whats inside the window and another for what the window decorations look like.
<OvenWerks> My personal view is that things should be functional first. Most of the newer themes do quite well at this within the window but fail when it comes to the window decorations.
<OvenWerks> The two main things that fail are A) handles that are easy to grab for window sizing. B) focused window differentiation.
<OvenWerks> Window handles in many themes are just too small to grab, often only one pixel wide. Great for optimising large window size and welcome when only one full size window is being used as in general desktop use, but useless for developing which is when media creation is.
<OvenWerks> Being able to see which window is focused without having to click then use is my other gripe... maybe less so for others. Whatever our main theme is, something that uses a really standout colour for active windows/boxes/whatever would be nice. We used to have one where the window title was ubuntustudio blue when focused.
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: did the group decide on KDE?  
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: no
<OvenWerks> the group has not decided anything
 * SlidingHorn was kinda hoping for openbox
<OvenWerks> I suspect that is not going to happen
<OvenWerks> I don't mind openbox, but the amount of work needed to make openbox look like it was meant to go together is likely more than we have people for.
<SlidingHorn> That's something I might actually be capable of!  lol
<OvenWerks> I think that whatever we default to should look fully formed and whole or profesional, not tacked together
<ErichEickmeyer>    tbh, SlidingHorn, Openbox isn't even on the radar as it's not a DE but a Window Manager.
<OvenWerks> Think about use in a radio station or potrate shop where customers see what the proprieter is using
<OvenWerks> *portrait
<SlidingHorn> my backing theory was essentially picking something ultra light so the DE/WM stays out of the way and allows these powerful applications the sytem's full resources
<SlidingHorn> I think XFCE does a decent job of that, but if US was going away from it, I figured I'd offer that as a suggestion...
<OvenWerks> Right now in my ubuntustudio 18.04 (I switched yesterday) I am using the Moheli theme which provides good sized window handles and the Numix "Style" (though Numix blue is ok) which is still a generally dark theme, except that highlited windows and items are bright orange
<OvenWerks> The Phasex styles are a bit much ;)
<OvenWerks> (try them and see)
<ErichEickmeyer> The only truly resource-heavy DE right now is GNOME. Even Plasma uses far fewer resources. I use Plasma when I do audio production, no issues whatsoever. So, lightweight at this point is moot unless you're doing audio production with a 10-year-old computer, which would be woefully inadequate to begin with.
<OvenWerks> I think you are right and so far as that goes, anyone with at least an i3 class computer will not really even notice gnome3
<ErichEickmeyer> Exactly.
<OvenWerks> so that is already almost 10 years back
<OvenWerks> (or will be by the time of next LTS)
<ErichEickmeyer> Except modern i3s are much more robust. That said, I still wouldn't use an i3 for live audio production.
<OvenWerks> i5 rules for audio.
<ErichEickmeyer> I used to use an 8-year-old i5, but I've since upgraded to a 7th generation AMD A10. It's rock solid.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, same goes for photography. The slowest response I've ever had with adjusting RAW was with a celeron. A Core2Duo blew it out of the water, and with modern processors it's even better.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: in terms of themes, check out Adapta and Arc since they're "all the rage" as the kids say.
 * SlidingHorn really loves Arc Darker
<ErichEickmeyer> For LXQt and Plasma, the default Breeze (which has a GTK variant) is really nice too.
<ErichEickmeyer> Btw, LXQt can use Kwin or Xfwm.
<ErichEickmeyer> Gotta go feed my son. bbl
 * ErichEickmeyer wonders if he should even bother responding to Ralf... he just likes to be a gatekeeper, and he doesn't even use Ubuntu Studio
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: o/
<eylul> hi :)
<SlidingHorn> howdy :)
<eylul> I keep forgetting to restart znc server :)
<ErichEickmeyer> d'oh! :)
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> I run through a Quassel Core on a Digital Ocean droplet. So easy.
<eylul> :)
<eylul> yeah I also use a vps, but once in a while it needs a restart now and then, I just don't use IRC enough to remember. :)
<eylul> I should just have a cron job set up.
<ErichEickmeyer> Ah, yes. I've been contemplating a Telegram group myself and figuring out how to bridge to here like other flavors are doing.
<ErichEickmeyer> Looks like we've got, eylul, SlidingHorn, and myself... I know OvenWerks is somewhere lurking about, and captain_tux_ can't be here.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, shall we get started?
<ErichEickmeyer> (btw, still need to figure out how to use meetingology)
<eylul> *takes a seat*
<ErichEickmeyer> lol
<OvenWerks> ok
<eylul> I'll chat with you on it after the meeting if you have time.
<ErichEickmeyer> Perfect. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, I'm not bringing over old business since 18.04 is out the door, and seems to be pretty good. The only issue was the confusion about LTS which I addressed in a blog post.
<ErichEickmeyer> As far as looking forward, how is the progress on the website revamp?
<eylul> well I did find some of the images we were considering. They do need a bit of extra work, looking at them. 
<eylul> the main issue through is getting the theme installed or finalizing the theme and getting it installed I believe.
<ErichEickmeyer> *nods*
<eylul> basically we need to have one person to take this over.
<eylul> because personally I am a bit fried on that topic
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: You were interested. Feel like taking a shot? eylul, would you be able to get him started?
<eylul> if they are interested. sure.
<SlidingHorn> I'd be willing to try...is this essentially making a WP theem?
<SlidingHorn> theme*
<eylul> it is there
<ErichEickmeyer> We have the theme, it just needs to be implemented and such. Got that test link, eylul?
<eylul> like 90% of the work. I can put the images up, but it is mostly uploading the theme to right dev bzr, and then asking Canonical side to reflect the changes to live. and yeah one sec
<eylul> http://ubuntustudio.azbulutlu.org/
<eylul> the images will need to change
<eylul> fyi
<SlidingHorn> I'll look at it today to see how everything works etc.  
<OvenWerks> DL link/name needs to change too.
<eylul> I'll get them done before next meeting
<eylul> oh the content is about 2 years out of date
<ErichEickmeyer> Perfect. And, yes, OvenWerks, it's a bit dated, but that's not hard to fix.
<eylul> but the theme is separate from content :)
<SlidingHorn> eylul: is there a way to contact you if I have questions?  (should I just use the -devel mailing list?)
<eylul> yes. email is the best way as I do check it
<ErichEickmeyer> The content automatically morphs to the theme. One of the beauties of WordPress.
<eylul> mastodon is another one, but email is the best really
<eylul> devel mailing list is also a good solution as that way everyone can chime in/help
<ErichEickmeyer> I like that idea.
<SlidingHorn> eylul: I'll email - but for reference, my mastodon is @slidinghorn@tuxspace.net
<ErichEickmeyer> I'll leave that to you guys to discuss. Sounds like we've got a handle on it.
<eylul> (my main is @eylul@mastodon.art)
 * ErichEickmeyer has yet to try mastodon
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, shall we move on to the next item?
 * eylul has to yet create the @ubuntustudio account
<eylul> *nods*
<SlidingHorn> I can do that today if youd like eylul 
<OvenWerks> I have one but always forget to send from it...
<eylul> I was going to, mostly trying to figure out which node is best. ;)
<eylul> ovenWerks: :))
<eylul> actually let me just create one at .art. >.>
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. This is a question of whether or not to drop 32-bit support (as in the ISO and ubuntustudio- packages). Ubuntu proper has dropped, Ubuntu Budgie and Ubuntu MATE have both dropped 32-bit. For our use case, and with the software we include, I don't see any reason to continue 32-bit ISOs.
<ErichEickmeyer> Lubuntu is also considering it.
<OvenWerks> that is a surprise...
<OvenWerks> I would think lubuntu would hang on to 32bit
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm thinking in terms of our userbase, chances are most have moved on to 64-bit unless they're running something ancient.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I agree, but talking to tsimonq2, they're looking into it.
<krytarik> eylul: Fwiw, your test instance is also quite a bit out of date wrt the theme, and it's actually here: https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website
 * ErichEickmeyer sees a wild krytarik appearing.
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: o/
<eylul> ohhh thanks krytarik
 * SlidingHorn throws a pokeball @ krytarik 
<ErichEickmeyer> Gotta catch 'em all.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, does anybody have any strong feelings one way or the other for 32-bit?
<OvenWerks> The only problem I see with dropping 32bit is the usecase of lugging an older laptop around for recording concerts... but in that case an old version (no inet connect) and more latency (generic kernel) are acceptable.
<OvenWerks> in otherwords I do not see that use case as a show stopper
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Chances are if you're working a concert you've got something a little zippier, in my experience.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, if nobody has any further input, shall I formally request to the release team to drop 32-bit support for Ubuntu Studio?
<SlidingHorn> no objection here
<OvenWerks> ok
<eylul> no objection
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. I'll make that request.
<OvenWerks> as a last comment on it, there are distros that specialize in "giving new life to old machines" none of them start with ubuntu as a base.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Lubuntu, but that's not really our user base.
<ErichEickmeyer> Next: Desktop Environments. Uh... I had a wild hair just a bit ago. What if we become the only official flavor to use Cinnamon?
<eylul> why?
<OvenWerks> what is cinnamon?
<OvenWerks> (aside from spicy)
<ErichEickmeyer> Cinnamon is a fork of Gnome 3 that Linux Mint started, and is now a full-flledged Destop Environment, almost a GTK3 version of Xfce in feel.
<ErichEickmeyer> It's in the official repos.
<OvenWerks> is cinamon available in the ubuntu repos?
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes.
<OvenWerks> is there a one package install for it?
<OvenWerks> (meta package)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes. I'll get the name for you.
<ErichEickmeyer> cinnamon-desktop-environment
<ErichEickmeyer> Note that it doesn't pull-in a Display Manager or plymouth theme since it's not tied to a flavor.
<ErichEickmeyer> Although, it might pull-in LightDM, which wouldn't be a change for us whatsoever.
<OvenWerks> I don't think that is a problem just now.
<ErichEickmeyer> The mint team have worked their tails off to keep it from being as resource intensive as GNOME, so there's that as well.
<OvenWerks> so far as DE goes it seems we have pretty much ruled out gnome3 based stuff like vanilla or gnome session
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Not entirely, but I think the outcry from the community has been pretty telling.
<ErichEickmeyer> That said, I would like to do a survey.
<SlidingHorn> ErichEickmeyer: I can throw a straw poll up on the subreddit
<OvenWerks> so we are at this point considering xfce, plasma, mate, budgie?, lxqt and cinnamon
<OvenWerks> does that sum up where things have gone?
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: Before you do that (you read my mind), I was going to write a post on the main website presenting the reasons, and describing each environment in our use case.
<eylul> ovenwerks: not sure lxqt was mentioned up to this point but otherwise that sounds correct. :)
<SlidingHorn> ErichEickmeyer: sounds good...ping me whenever that's up
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I think I'd like to see results of the survey before we rule-out anything.
<OvenWerks> eylul: someone suggested it was looking much better than lxde and should be checked out.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: I've been mentioning LXQt. :)
<eylul> ah
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> LXDE is, at this point, no longer being developed. The entire project has become LXQt.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: the reason we nixed vanilla was that we can't ship with a menu.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, that's true, but if one were to install a menu extension it would automatically take categories into effect.
<ErichEickmeyer> But, we'd have to leave that to the user.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: for a new user, trying to find ones way around Studio without a menu would be troublsome, someone wanting to apply Studio metas over top of vanilla/session would have no problem.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Agreed. Should we leave it out of the survey?
<OvenWerks> I think so.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. SlidingHorn, eylul, krytarik, thoughts?
<eylul> I think survey is a good idea
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. SlidingHorn, I'll work with you on this.
 * SlidingHorn thumbs up
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, that new wallpaper that eylul made should definitely be included (and perhaps the default?) for 18.10. What do you say we hold a contest for wallpaper inclusion later on?
<OvenWerks> it would be nice to have a web page with a list of DEs and a place for comments about each.
<SlidingHorn> ErichEickmeyer: where can I see that? 
<eylul> do we have energy to do this? is it worth the time it will take? *obligatory questions*
<eylul> (this for the wallpaper contest)
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, we could have submissions and then have a special meeting to vote on the submissions. Xubuntu does it all the time, and Ubuntu GNOME used to.
<ErichEickmeyer> It'd be cool to showcase artwork peoople are making with Ubuntu Studio.
<OvenWerks> survey should be made for theme too maybe. though I would almost like to see us have a short list of themes we ship and use one default from a survey.
<SlidingHorn> Theming would be something I'd probably enjoy playing with
<ErichEickmeyer> Any theme we choose will adapt to the DE, so I think that should be later.
<SlidingHorn> agreed - wallpaper itself could have an influence also
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah.
<OvenWerks> what happens with a theme (gtk2/3) when used with plasma/lxqt?
<ErichEickmeyer> Most themes have a Qt/GTK variant. Also, LXQt can use Kwin or Xfwm, so there's that.
<ErichEickmeyer> Maybe I should rephrase that: the quality themes have corresponding variants.
<ErichEickmeyer> That said, in my experience, theming issues with GTK vs Qt is a thing of the past as they can both adapt to each other.
<OvenWerks> the reason I ask is that so far, the various DEs have nothing we can't work with. The themes have been the weak points for me in all cases
<ErichEickmeyer> Most of the time, Qt apps in a GTK environment will default to the GTK theme anymore.
<OvenWerks> cool.
<krytarik> ErichEickmeyer: Btw, wrt your statement on LXDE..: https://blog.lxde.org/
<ErichEickmeyer> Especially if they're Qt5. Qt4 had an issue with this, but that was easily solved with Qt4-config.
<ErichEickmeyer> Intersting, krytarik. Years ago they were talking about merging. I guess they merged then forked?
<krytarik> Some of the devs simply stuck to working on the GTK+ variant instead.
<ErichEickmeyer> Ah. I see.
<OvenWerks> I didn't think there were that many...
<krytarik> Tbh, there aren't so many on LXQt either. >_>
<krytarik> People have already started proclaiming it stale too. :P
<OvenWerks> that was what I meant I didn't think there were enough devs to split between two things.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, that wraps up the agenda I had since we've been talking about themes throughout. The wallpaper contest idea can be tabled for now and something to think about.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Yeah, certainly looks like.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure what about the site you posted makes it look  like lxde is continuing
<OvenWerks> lxde will be supported for the length of the lts is all.
<krytarik> Did you not see the blog posts on new component versions?
<OvenWerks> yes but for 18.04 it seems.
<SlidingHorn> do we have any updates on the topic of pulling in mentors?
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: I have yet to have those conversations. A lot of networking is being done right now in terms of those connections.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: I'm not sure why you are mangling an upstream project with a distro here fwiw.
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed w/ krytarik. LXDE/Qt != Lubuntu
<SlidingHorn> another question - how much actual packaging work falls upon this particular group?  
<OvenWerks> just the things called ubuntustudio-*
<OvenWerks> (at this point)
<SlidingHorn> ok
<SlidingHorn> That's something I want to learn/do
<OvenWerks> we have in the past done lowlatency kernel
<OvenWerks>  and backports of applications for LTS but it has not happened in years
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, my last question: should we even bother responding to Ralf? He seems to like being a gatekeeper that doesn't even run Ubuntu Studio just so in his mind he doesn't have to change his workflow of "helping new users."
 * SlidingHorn is not aware of this issue
<OvenWerks> Many people have added his email to ignore
<OvenWerks> (also in LAU)
<ErichEickmeyer> Good to know I'm not the only one annoyed by his antix.
<ErichEickmeyer> *antics
<krytarik> LOL :D
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, anything else to discuss?
<OvenWerks> someone did a graph relating LAU mail list activity to ralph posts and found that lau mailing list usage always dipped with ralf usage
<ErichEickmeyer> Hahaha!
<krytarik> And yes, he shouldn't be taken too seriously - he is in fact know for interjects like this.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. Well, shall we adjourn this meeting? I feel like we've been fairly productive discussing ideas. I think our next step will be that post/survey, and we'll go from there.
<ErichEickmeyer> Also the website.
<eylul> by the way, I did install the test area as a temporary solution re the website
<eylul> if anyone has a better solution for test environment for website. or staging area.
<eylul> feel free to take the lead on it. *is not very good at setting things like git at the moment*
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh, that's another thing: we've got to migrate from bzr to git. Just remembered that.
<eylul> right!
<ErichEickmeyer> Came down from the release team.
<eylul> its a good change. not many people know bzr
<eylul> but people know git. 
<OvenWerks> Has that become a _must_ now?
<krytarik> Well, seeds will be done by them at least though.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: From what I read, it's a must.
<OvenWerks> ok
<OvenWerks> does that mean launchpad will do git?
<OvenWerks> is there a page on conversion?
<krytarik> And no, we don't have to migrate all our sources to Git just yet.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Idk. I'd have to check the email more. There is a page on conversion, and I'll post it in the ML.
<eylul> (on a more lighthearted note this just happened: https://mastodon.art/@Curator)
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh cool, eylul!
<SlidingHorn> :D
<eylul> wrong link. but
<eylul> https://mastodon.art/@Curator/99978453487420442
<SlidingHorn> We picked up what you were putting down :P
<ErichEickmeyer> very happy to see that. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, it's been almost an hour and I do have to get to work early today to finish a project. Anything else?
<SlidingHorn> Nothing pressing here
 * OvenWerks is ok with where we are
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: If you could just PM me some instructions on meetingology, that should be okay.
<eylul> alright will do so
<ErichEickmeyer> In the mean time, let's have a good week, I'll post the notes later. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> *meeting adjorned*
<ErichEickmeyer> Gotta go! Bye everyone!
<krytarik> ErichEickmeyer: Have a nice day! :)
<eylul> be well everyone. 
<eylul> btw slidinghorn since krytarik here is the one who did also put a lot of work on the code side of the theme.
<eylul> and clearly remembers better than I do, where things are with it. 
<krytarik> I would think the commit log of the linked theme branch kind of indicates this, yes. >_>
<krytarik> Btw, in context of trying again to get this solved, I recently talked to knome (parent theme maintainer) in order to finally get the remaining issues with that fixed too (simple typos and such..)
<OvenWerks> budgie looks like vanilla with a menu... or maybe session with a menu.
<OvenWerks> budgie blocks alt? (I don't seem to be able to use alt in irssi to move between channels)
<krytarik> Might be captured by the terminals menu accels.
<krytarik> Solution: Hide the menu! :P
 * OvenWerks is wondering how to do that
<OvenWerks> I was thinking tilix was kind of a nice terminal.... but if it steals keystrokes it ges kind of useless
<OvenWerks> reboot
<OvenWerks> wow, all the apps in my menu vanished!
<krytarik> What an unusual thing to happen.. :P
<OvenWerks> software is updating... probably something to do with that
<OvenWerks> install some Studio stuff...
<OvenWerks> menu config file is the same broken gnome file... system setting override user setting rather than the other way around
<OvenWerks> what? which package we provide needs lib wine?
<OvenWerks> And thats just audio
<OvenWerks> Yup, every time the menu detects a new desktop file it seems to reload and the menu's items all vanish for a bit.
<OvenWerks> have to install gnome-tweaks for focus follows mouse
<OvenWerks> lmms forces wine install Yuck!
<krytarik> Ah yes, that was it..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-06
<OvenWerks> one of the problems with a wine install I have experienced in the past is that some of my video stuff was unistalled. I think it was when I was using an nvidia card with prop. drivers
<OvenWerks> I don't know if this is still the case, but if so that would be an issue for heavy graphics users
<OvenWerks> It seems to me I had to uninstall reinstall to fix it after removing wine.
<OvenWerks> budgie comes with 4 workspaces, but there is nowhere to change that... or access them. I was able to add a switcher after a while.
<OvenWerks> Ah, after the workspace switcher is active it is possible to add or remove workspaces. This seems like a strange way to do things. If there is no WS switcher then only one WS should be enabled. Someone looking for workspaces enough will add the switcher which will allow adding another WS.
<krytarik> So that's just a matter of a default setting then.
<OvenWerks> yes, budgie seems fine if someone wants to use it with STudio but the menu makes it less than ideal as default
<OvenWerks> downloading cinnamon
<OvenWerks> wow it downloads a lot of stuff beyond just the DE... like firefox?
<krytarik> Let's see!
<OvenWerks> (budgie comes with chromium)
<krytarik> What package are you installing exactly then?
<krytarik> https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/cinnamon-desktop-environment - hellooo!
<OvenWerks> cinnamon-desktop-environment
<OvenWerks> I am not particularly upset so much as surprised
<OvenWerks> that page says FF or chromium, it should have skipped ff I think
<krytarik> https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/cinnamon - I would just go with this then, if any DE is already installed.
<OvenWerks> too late now :)
<krytarik> Well, it's actually "chromium-browser" though.
<OvenWerks> Ah, that makes sense
<OvenWerks> The depends are wrong then.
<OvenWerks> cinnamon uses mate themes
<krytarik> Ah fun, that's literally true.
<OvenWerks> That is weird, chromium was installed as the default but ff is what opens...
<krytarik> Last in wins!
<OvenWerks> Cinnamon doesn't...
<krytarik> Avid DE testers!.. :D
<OvenWerks> I do like the background chooser, it offers the right directories
<OvenWerks> Fire fox must be restarted to show a new theme
<OvenWerks> xfce is looking nicer all the time...
<OvenWerks> budgie looks like there are things a new theme will not change.
<OvenWerks> Calf plugins are a problem in 18.04. It seems we can have either the calf lv1 plugins or the calf lv2 plugins but not both :P
<OvenWerks> If both are installed the host crashes when using one of them.
<OvenWerks> However, LMMS requires the LV1 version (ladspa) but the nice GUI front ends are a part of the LV2 version.
<OvenWerks> The lv2 version GUI has other problems... mostly they have chosen GTK as the toolkit.
<OvenWerks> The easiest fix would be to remove the lv2 version from our seeds and fixing the two packages so that one precludes the other.
<krytarik> eylul: Please refrain from putting (particularly the wallpaper style..) images in the WordPress theme branch (master) if they aren't referred to by the latter itself.  Like I said though, I don't exactly remember anymore how the theme combined (or not..) with the wallpaper style images was supposed to work in the current iteration of it and how it looked then.
<krytarik> I think the idea was to upload the wallpaper images independently from the theme using the WP media manager and then referring to them using the Simple CSS plugin we also requested to be installed.
<krytarik> This would make us not rely on Canonical IS should we wish to update the wallpapers at some point.
<krytarik> In either case, with or without those wallpapers, the theme currently in Git would already be a whole of an improvement to the stale one currently deployed.
<eylul> Krytarik its not wallpaper they actually are the backgrounds. as for it I thought last situation was that we couldn't get those plugins in?
<eylul> besides I could swear there was an assets folder somewhere for them
<krytarik> Yes, 'assets' is the other branch in the repo.
<eylul> alright that's where they will go then.
<eylul> but honestly if we do have the time to finalize and agree, we can also bake them into the theme. main issue last time was that we had images that had issues and we knew we wanted to replace them
<krytarik> Well, I'd rather like the base theme lean and without those anyway.
<eylul> that's fair.
<eylul> we might also be able to create custom image slots directly in the theme
<eylul> I mean the 2017 wordpress default theme has something similar in it
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: The calf themes are also out of date. 0.90.0 was released back in November. I am working on packaging the new version. Afaik, LV1 support was dropped in favor of LV2.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: so what does lmms do then? it seems lmms depends on the ladspa version of calf...
<OvenWerks> It also seems lmms is in trouble dev wise... falktx is talking of effectively forking it and converting to to use lv2 :)
<ErichEickmeyer> I think that's why calf has been dropping it.
<OvenWerks> lmms should not depend on wine for vst, it should be able to deal with lxvst without. Wine is great software, but I don't really think any distro/iso should include wine.
<ErichEickmeyer> iirc, ladspa is in trouble too since nearly everyone has moved to lv2 or vst, but I could be wrong.
<ErichEickmeyer> And, yes, I agree. That said, though, there are a lot more VST plugins for Windows than there are Linux, unfortunately.
<ErichEickmeyer> Waves plugins, for instance.
<OvenWerks> there are a few people who are hanging onto ladspa with both hands dragging their feet heals stuck in hard.
<ErichEickmeyer> LOL
<ErichEickmeyer> That analogy gave me a funny mental picture.
<OvenWerks> Male for one and Fons as I recall
<ErichEickmeyer> I admit, those don't ring a bell.
<OvenWerks> Same with dssi. I hear someone is actually working on a dssi v2
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes, I saw something about that. Possibly FalkTX himself?
<OvenWerks> male is the guy doing all the nonstuff and Fons is the author of any of the zita- software
<ErichEickmeyer> OH yes. Now I'm familiar.
<OvenWerks> Both are of good quality and I would like to see non-mixer support LV2
<ErichEickmeyer> I would LOVE to see non-mixer support LV2. I'm a pretty avid calf user.
<OvenWerks> :P Calf either works for you or causes trouble.
<OvenWerks> Calf has two problem, it uses GTK for it's GUI and the DSP has trouble.
<ErichEickmeyer> I've definitely had my share of issues. But, I've never had issues with calf running inside Ardour. And that right there sums up the majority of my workflow.
<OvenWerks> A plugin should be compiled sataticly and that is very hard to do with gtk
<ErichEickmeyer> I've had Ardour crash on my when ladspa plugins are even present lately. Not sure which is the culpret.
<ErichEickmeyer> Which plugin, that is.
<ErichEickmeyer> Haven't had time to investigate.
<OvenWerks> It seems that calf uses the same function names for both their lv1 and lv2 plugins but they are not the same they do different things and have different number of aruments
<OvenWerks> there is another set that is bad too. I don't remember which ones though
<ErichEickmeyer> Could it be because the lv1 code isn't maintained?
<ErichEickmeyer> (just spitballing here)
<OvenWerks> possibly. I don't think we or anyone else has really looked through them to see if it is possible to just drop some of the lv1 packages.
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably worth investigating, but not a priority. Maybe a 19.04 thing.
<OvenWerks> So far as I know the steve harris package is ok.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, the harris packages are working fine. Most of those are just ports, I haven't seen anything new from him in ages.
<OvenWerks> the amb plugins should be ok and there is nothing in lv2 like them.
<ErichEickmeyer> ..yet. :P
<OvenWerks> Nobody has even worked on them. nonmixer is the only thing that provides a good gui for them
<ErichEickmeyer> Really too bad, but somewhat expected. I feel as though a lot of people (including my co-worker) has gotten locked-in to Waves, and the FOSS plugins have gone by the wayside with several notable exceptions.
<OvenWerks> things like zam-plugins should be repackaged probably though he does it right and they are (when he does it) static. but to include 4 kinds of plugin in one package?
<OvenWerks> zam uses his own gui tk
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably smart on his part for functionality, but maintaining a tk has to be rough.
<OvenWerks> there is a swh-lv2 package, I was wrong.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, that's the port I was talking about.
<ErichEickmeyer> Still haven't seen anything new from swh.
<ErichEickmeyer> In a very long time.
<OvenWerks> most good plugin devs do their own toolkit or use fltk/nontk
<ErichEickmeyer> Just the ports.
<ErichEickmeyer> I've gotta take-off. Gotta get my son home to sleep, he has school in the morning.
<OvenWerks> ok
<ErichEickmeyer> Talk later. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-29
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Thanks, got the upgraded Controls.
<Eickmeyer> I'll send it to backports in the morning. Do we need Ross to SRU it to Disco?
<OvenWerks> Not my call
<Eickmeyer> I asked on the bug report if he feels it's a big enough bug.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-30
<OvenWerks> ACK!
 * OvenWerks has a forever loop in controls...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Roger the infinte loop, will stand by for fix. 
<Eickmeyer> Furthermore, could you possibly file a bug report for that so we can get that SRU'd?
<Eickmeyer> Seems like a rather important thing to fix.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: http://www.four-audio.com/en/products/dante-pcie-card.html?fbclid=IwAR3DZvgVw262aYuxTsi8XEi5bUp5toiriZ8MGbnwPSpgAomJvkQ0HeJ4hxE
<Eickmeyer> Linux/Alsa compatible Dante card.
<OvenWerks> the bug is in my current work. so no worries.
<OvenWerks> re: the card I don't see the usual suspects selling it. so no price
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-01
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I decided that sinse there are a number of calls that refresh what devices show up in various places, I should do that refresh in one place/call. The problem is that I set in each case the active device which also calls the refresh... and so it goes forever.
<OvenWerks> I have some choices, use a signal with a delay. Detect something other than a select. Set a value true and ignore other selects untill finished. ignore any select that comes without a dropdown/click.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's quite a few options!
<Eickmeyer> Back in the day, when programing in BASIC, you'd just make an infinite loop looking for a keypress. When the keypress was detected, act. Things aren't so simple anymore.
<OvenWerks> infinite loop = 100%cpu
<Eickmeyer[m]> Eek! Yeah, not good.
<OvenWerks> Thats why we don't wait for keystrokes that way any more.
<OvenWerks> (well maybe windows does, but I think even they got over that one)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, that was back in the day when every device got an interrupt.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: feel free to look at the jack alive indicator in -controls.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Will do. Recently pushed?
<OvenWerks> Ya, may not be build as I did not request that
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: No worries. I'm working on lsp-plugins, and am to the point to ask for sponsorship.
<Eickmeyer> It was actually pretty easy to split, but the funny part is that the ladspa/vst/lv2 plugins are just wrappers for binaries. So, I had to make a common package and put the wrappers in their own packages.
<Eickmeyer> Also made a metapackage for standalone, which literally just installs the common packages.
<Eickmeyer> bug 1827288
<ubottu> bug 1827288 in Ubuntu Studio "[Needs Packaging] LSP-Plugins for Eoan" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1827288
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-03
<eickmeyer[m]> Test
<Eickmeyer> Test
<eickmeyer[m]> It's working
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks we now have a matrix room directly bridged here.
<OvenWerks> I figured that was what was going on.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Working on getting the main room, but I need krytarik .
<tsimonq2> ANS-Live: /or
<tsimonq2> urghhhhhhh
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Whut?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-05
<dx9s> OvenWerks, Eickmeyer suggested that I talk to you about some of my pulseaudio endevors
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I met dx9s at Linux Fest Northwest in Bellingham last weekend, and he has some pretty decent ideas. I'm not sure how they would work into our scope, but you two might be able to bounce some ideas off of each other.
<OvenWerks> Go ahead...
<OvenWerks> I would like a fixed/finished pulse->jack bridge.
<Eickmeyer> dx9s: ^
<dx9s> Hello sorry was on -devel w/ Eickmeyer 
<Eickmeyer> (he means -offtopic)
<dx9s> er .. yeah.. multi-tasking .. poorly and with high error rates
<OvenWerks> Other than that, Removing the alsa/udev modules fixes a lot of things.
<dx9s> I was instead of creating a bunch of pulse-jack-source/sinks and routing to jack to then route to external mixer XR18 or X32 or anything similar. I was directly making virtual sound cards in pulse to route to the external mixer.
<dx9s> can read up on it here https://dx9s.net/node/32
<OvenWerks> -controls does/can do some of that, but at this time we only do two channels.
<OvenWerks> But ya, making extra bridges can be done on the fly.
<dx9s> one of the side effects of pulse is that any attached sound interface with many inputs and outputs, it labels the first 8 as surround channels.. which is a pain.. so I was wanting to teach pulse that the sound card channels are just simple channels:   https://dx9s.net/node/37 .. (note that doesn't work, but is in the correct direction)
<OvenWerks> My original version of autojack actually created a pulse->bridge for each zita->jack bridge so that pulse could see all devices.
<dx9s> The advantages of using pulse thru jack (in some cases, not always) is many applications are already pulse aware (i.e. spotify, firefox, discord, etc.) and not jack.. 
<OvenWerks> yup
<dx9s> er.. I mean the advantages of pulse over jack is ..
<OvenWerks> I am following.
<OvenWerks>  I have been down much the same road... just with a different set of devices/needs
<dx9s> Can still bridge jack to pulse .. and sometimes it makes sense to use jack to connect directly to the hardware.
<OvenWerks> If you are using jack at all, jack should be the only "device" pulse sees
<OvenWerks> if not, jack will not freewheel correctly and xruns will show up.
<OvenWerks> pulse, if it can see any alsa device will use it as it's main media clock.
<dx9s> I've routed audio between external mics and apps and so forth over USB to pulse (no jack) for many hours.. seems stable enough.. I can see the desired to use jack in some cases.
<OvenWerks> with no jack it is ok.
<Eickmeyer> The biggest problem I have with pulse is that it has a relatively higher latency.
<dx9s> It's sort of nice to open Skype .. or Discord and pick "CHX" for output source.. and it shows up in the mixer
<OvenWerks> My concern is that even if I have something like Ardour running I want to be able to use the same outputs for desktop stuff
<OvenWerks> When I set up pulse to jack bridges, I always name them for the device I expect to use as the in/output
<OvenWerks> Having said that... I don't see it in controls :P
<dx9s> latency is low enough and because external mixer. monitoring and previewing there is like recording audio into thru jack but using external monitoring (for 0 latency).. 
<OvenWerks>  Need to add to my doto list.
<dx9s> not familar with controls tho..
<Eickmeyer> !ubuntustudio-controls | dx9s, this is what we're referring to with -controls
<ubottu> dx9s, this is what we're referring to with -controls: Ubuntu Studio Controls is the application through which audio is configured in Ubuntu Studio. It configures Jack, sets the CPU governor, and ensures the user has realtime audio permissions. For more info, see !jack and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UbuntuStudioControls
<dx9s> oh that apps.. yeah.. just saw it the other day..
<OvenWerks> I would like to have something like patchage for connecting things where it would be possible to right click on the pulse icon and add new ports to it with my chosen name or have a  port called add where a wire drawn from that to a jack port would create a pa-jack bridge named from the port it goes to.
<dx9s> I have it installed someplace.. in VM or on the laptop (not a base ubuntu studio, but added it on to ubuntu)
<OvenWerks> Still in active development.
<dx9s> the "brige" you talk about is the pulse-jack bridge (module-jack-sink/source) right?
<OvenWerks> yes.
<OvenWerks> I unload the jackdbus-detect module.
<dx9s> Normally the programs I've seen in places (studio and elsewhere) normally just create one stereo. I end up openning command line and loading several (mono and stereo)
<OvenWerks>  then create them with names I want then connect them where I want
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That reminds me, I have to do some more testing. Launching -controls was crashing for me the other day, but I didn't have time to investigate. I'm not home (and left that machine there), so the earliest I can get to it is Monday.
<dx9s> after looking at the remap module in pulse, I've skipped that and just have pulse route to channels in mixer (no jack)
<OvenWerks> right, that is a new use case or well a use case I haven't really decided to cover yet.
<OvenWerks> The main reason for controls as it is so far is to deal with USB mics :p
<dx9s> I understand the advantages of jack.. being able to route to several outputs dynamically.. have to setup a module in pulse for that (module-combine-sink)
<dx9s> but having an external mixer with busses and dynamics/EQ/etc and routing pulse apps directly to channel (mono or stereo) is super nice and then have it route in hardware mixer back to system in pulse.
<OvenWerks> I think that it should be possible in pulse to create a profile for a device and maybe jack too that is just ch1 to ch n
<OvenWerks> To route different apps to different channels you need to use more than one bridge.
<dx9s> in my https://dx9s.net/node/37 (wrote earlier today).. trying to figure out how to teach pulse that front-left is CH01 , and front-right is CH02 .. etc 
<dx9s> makes the script on /node/32 more readable.. rather than the hackish "renaming" bash ENV vars
<OvenWerks> Does it matter? At least for stereo not really, once you get beyond 2 they all need to be "Aux"
<OvenWerks> (in pulse speak)
<dx9s> I don't understand the question... sometimes busing in mono (Discord/Skype for example)
<OvenWerks> doesn't pulse allow only one channel?
<OvenWerks> (I thought it did... my usb mic I use for testing is mono... and says disney on it I think)
<dx9s> the remap allows for anything you want.. normally mono or stereo.. but can be anything, 1 or 2 makes sense as most simple apps only know mono/stereo (spotify or vlc or what not)
<dx9s> assuming you looked at the photo here: https://dx9s.net/cdn/pulseaudiohacks.png .. the pavucontrol shows firefox playback routing options
<OvenWerks> I am, I must admit, a ways from adding to pulse.
<OvenWerks> So you are doing everything from pulse
<dx9s> yes .. find it to be an interesting solution
<dx9s> it makes sense when you are using a sound card/mixer (external) like XR18/X32 or similar
<OvenWerks> Ya, I have run jack as the device on everything for about 2 or 3 years now, even on non-music production machines and just pulse to jack. It has been very solid even for someone like my wife who has no idea what a jackd is.
<OvenWerks> However, a better pulse only solution would be reasonable too
<dx9s> And when jack makes sense, can still use pulse-jack-source/sink modules to connect
<OvenWerks> I run jack from startup to shutdown
<OvenWerks> For me, it just always makes sense. It takes away some of pulse's anoying habits such as adjusting my carefully set alsa levels.
<OvenWerks> I personally prefer that pulse is only a software level control.
<dx9s> I end up having several devices.. I used to back in the earlier days (when I was running UbuntuStudio as my base install, still am looking at it for a re-install here soon)... I'd point pulse to onboard and jack to my ICE1712 (M-Audio 1010) .. I wish there was a PCIe ICE1712 card out there. but everybody has moved to USB
<OvenWerks> I also use an ice1712 card in my system (still)
<dx9s> PCI ?!
<OvenWerks> I hope not to have to ever use a USB device
<dx9s> I was that way too..
<OvenWerks> yes, I chose my latest mother board with great care
<OvenWerks> I have three pci slots on my i5
<OvenWerks>  I use two of them, the unused one shares irq16 with4 other devices :P
<dx9s> USB class 2 audio is far more usable .. (higher latency tho) .. but people have gotten used to external monitor mixing anyways.. Hence using XR18/X32 sound card+mixer is a good match 
<OvenWerks> Yes the x32 seems to work well.
<dx9s> It's a real change in audio work flow. Instead of having software mixers/compressors/etc.. have real dedicated hardware ones..
<dx9s> This is for live stuff.. Ardour (or similar) recording is a different workflow.. jack makes sense there
<OvenWerks> I have used an external mixer for about 20 years :)
<OvenWerks> Mostly for the mic pre and monitoring. No eq or comp generally.
<dx9s> Yeah, but there are plenty of low LOW budget recording setups that want to monitor in software
<dx9s> that case.. low latency and PCI hardware
<dx9s> FWIW.. I even looked at PCI to PCIe riser/adapter hardware.. they exist.. ugly solution 
<dx9s> I really like ICE1712 chipset
<OvenWerks> I do not know about the x32, but some of the digital mixers are all integer DSP math, even 40 bit int math does not sound as good as 32 bit float
<OvenWerks> I have heard different things about the pci-pcie bridges. Some good and some not so much
<OvenWerks> It seems that the quality of the bridges is somewhat variable.
<dx9s> The DSP in the X32 / XR18 / and Midas spin offs (M32,etc) are based on the Midas PRO series (PRO1, PRO2, PRO3, PRO6, PRO9).. which is a 40-bit floating engine.. only 48kHz instead of 96kHz 
<OvenWerks> 48K is better anyway for almost everything
<OvenWerks>  96k is mainly advertizing.
<dx9s> I did look at the PRO2C (Compact) until the price tag of $10,000 was discovered.. I can live with the X32.. the "Pop" groups are super slick.. they "prune" channels not apart of a Popular (or DCA) group.. press DCA group for drums and only the channels on left for drums appear.
<dx9s> yeah.. understood.. but it was the Midas PRO series (which uses embedded Linux) that got Behringer to support Linux as well as they did.. it's a cool story 
<dx9s> X32 has embedded linux it as well (and XR18 I believe as well)
<dx9s> * X-Air series
<OvenWerks> All the digital consols do pretty much even those that do not support linux :/
<dx9s> true
<dx9s> But I text/chatted with one of the support guys (perhaps developers) that made the X-Edit software for X32 on Linux.. the dev kit had on an update an "export" for Rasberry Pi show up.. they tried it out and it created a source tarbal that combined for the RPi and boom.. RPi support for remote control surfaces.
<dx9s> offical RPi support is weird and cool at same time
<dx9s> Anyhow.. I sent a message to the guy I found that LAST made the change to the Wiki on the pulseaudio for making custom profile.. Not sure if or when I'll get a reply. It was via IRC here on freenode... I'll follow up with email in a few days. Be nice to teach pulse new channel names 
<OvenWerks> I am not sure, but I think most of the pulse devs are more interested in pipewire
<OvenWerks> Pipewire is supposed to replace both pulse and jackd and add video streaming as well
<dx9s> yeah.. well as long as pipewire doesn't call multichannel cards weird surround channel names
<OvenWerks> However, from what I have heard the backend is not really the best for lowlatency use... jack may be around for a while yet.
<dx9s> Pipewire, have not used it but did hear about it at LFNW2019 from Wes Payne (Jupiter Broadcasting).. Missed the talk as it was going on same time as Blender 2.8 but spoke a little with him about it and a little with Eickmeyer as well at the BBQ
<OvenWerks> the suround names are actually correct for desktop use. (based on HDA and hdmi of course)
<dx9s> I know, but the names (the order) move around... if you put X32 in 8x8 .. the 3/4th and 5/6th channels are ONE way. if X32 is in 16x16 (or higher) they switch.. that's a pain.
<OvenWerks> Yikes!
<dx9s> assume it's a bug for all similar cards.. the XR18 only has 2x2 or 18x18 so can't test there
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, biggest downside to that mixer. That along with the 8-channel grouping.
<OvenWerks> Biggest downside to pulse...
<OvenWerks> well maybe not the biggest :)
 * Eickmeyer had to do some pretty funky bus gymnastics to route individual channels to roundtrip to his computer when used with an X32.
<dx9s> I have also noticed the pulse-combine-sink takes a little while to "measure" clock skews.. takes 2-10 seconds to get the output skew correction aligned (sounds good by ear).
<OvenWerks> zita-a2jbrdge does too, but normally it is set up some time before connecting anything to it.
<OvenWerks> anytime you have two sync sources it will take time to get the SRC synced
<dx9s> not familar with zita-a2jbridge, but I've seen it.. never ysed it.
<OvenWerks> -controls uses it to allow more than one audio device to be used at a time.
<dx9s> OvenWerks, *sync.. yeah.. that is why Delta 1010/LT (or firewire cards) with wordclock is slick. Have an echo audiofire 12 collecting dust ATM..
<dx9s> Not even sure if I can give it away.
<OvenWerks> Assuming it is PCI send it my way... it may be better than my audiopci that is card wto here.
<dx9s> audiofire 12 is firewire 12 channel device.. shunted (50 ohm resistor) a channel to measure inaudible noise above 20kHz .. it's not overly noisy but FFT shows plenty.. so using it at 192kHz is doable, 48kHz is plenty clean tho, no ultrasonic harmonics. has no preamp, direct outs on mixer is or dedicated preamp required.
<dx9s> used with analog mixer that had 8 direct outs (and 4 sub group outs)
<OvenWerks> Ah, firewire. I can still get a FW pcie card.
<dx9s> Jack with ffado I think is all that is required
<OvenWerks> Yup, that is in fact what I wanted to work on next in -controls.
<dx9s> er called firewire now
<OvenWerks> I have heard that the alsa fw modules work well but do not give access to the internal routing and controls.
<dx9s> well you can have it if you want it.
<OvenWerks> What is the cost to get it to Canada?
<dx9s> dunno.. I'm in the Olympia area right now.
<dx9s> what part of Canada?
<OvenWerks> Ya, Eickmeyer said something about that, I am on Vancouver Island
<dx9s> oh.. Victoria ? 
<OvenWerks> My son, who used to live on the lower mainland has up and moved to Ottawa.
<OvenWerks> No I am in Courtenay in the Comxo vally
<OvenWerks> *Valley
 * OvenWerks can't spell anything it appears
<dx9s> Have a friend that I haven't seen that lives in Victoria (walking distance from the Wax museum) .. it's been at least 10 years, last time was when he got married.
<OvenWerks> Comox Valley, north of Naniamo and sounth of Campbell River
<dx9s> mid island
<dx9s> not sure how much international shipping would cost, but will look into options.
<OvenWerks> I remember visiting Victoria in 1980ish... we went spring break two years ago and it has changed a lot. It has grown to a point I can be quite happy not visiting again :)
<dx9s> lol
<OvenWerks> no UPS please :) USPS is nice though
<OvenWerks> (UPS tried to sue our country... and charges the highest border fees of anyone I know)
<dx9s> I heard something was up, didn't know any details. good to know
<OvenWerks> I used to work as mail delivery, so maybe a bit touchy ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-28
<StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: Eickmeyer  You'll like this. A couple of narrators asked that we change the theme AWAY from Materia because they'd like something where the widgets in the UI have more definition. Since I'm not a fan of the Yaru color pallette, I enabled Adwaita. They liked it. So, I'm playing with that now on my laptop -- still using Papirus icons though.
<StevenJayCohen> Adwaita with Ubuntu Purple would be perfect IMO
<StevenJayCohen> I took off my glasses (which I rarely do when I'm using my computer) and worked that way for a while. Once eye strain started to set in, I was appreciating borders on the buttons
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: thats what options are for :)
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: I find it interesting the difference between graphic designers and people who use their computer to get work done.
<OvenWerks> between people who use their computer to entertain themselves and those who expect to get maximum productivity
<OvenWerks> Win95, CDE, etc. were made for business use, for productivity. Almost everything since has been more and more focused at the entertainment use
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: sorry to bug you ... re: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-controls/+bug/1872187
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1872187 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-controls crashed with IndexError in refresh_dropdowns(): list index out of range" [Medium,Incomplete]
<OvenWerks> This does look like a real bug
<Eickmeyer> It does, but not for Controls. I'm going to add the kerenel to it since it appears to be hardware related. I have tested extensively with my Nvidia hardware, and no issues. So the issue is very likely the hardware.
<OvenWerks> My question is: where should I fix it? In ubuntustudio-controls or studio-controls
<Eickmeyer> You have nothing to fix.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: From what I can ascertain, it's a kernel problem.
<OvenWerks> I thihnk controls should check for a device that has no description. That is I should check that it exists before reading it.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I definitely agree. So, is this a device that has no description?
<OvenWerks> it appears the file has Name: ""
<OvenWerks> I catch the "Name" part and try to read from : to the end of the line which does not exist
<OvenWerks> So, if the kernel has a bug or not, -controls also has a bug :)
<OvenWerks> The question still remains if it should be fixed in ubuntustudio-controls or studio-controls
<OvenWerks> (the first option means both of course)
<Eickmeyer> If we want to do a simple backport, then studio-controls. If we want to fix this as an SRU (which should be the proper procedure for something like this), ubuntustudio-controls. I'm leaning toward ubuntustudio-controls.
<StevenJayCohen> I've been trying to figure out if I've got a studio bug or a bug in my DAW. After recording for at least 30 minutes, the ability to record suddenly stops. Stopping and restarting recording fixes it. And, I can't find much of anything in logs.
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: what file format are you recoring to?
<StevenJayCohen> I'm collecting timestamps when it occurs during this session and will look back through logs after the talent leaves.
<StevenJayCohen> WAV 24bit
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: use Bwav
<OvenWerks> Normal wav does have a file length restriction
<StevenJayCohen> Will check that for the next session after this one. Thanks for the tip!
<OvenWerks> bwav does not.
<OvenWerks> bwav also saves in 32bit float instead of 24 bit int
<StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: It isn't a continuous record of 30+ minutes. It's files that start and overlap each other covering mistakes.
<StevenJayCohen> Talent flubs a work every 3-15 minutes.
<StevenJayCohen> So, each time a new take on the track where we go back to the top of a paragraph
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am fixing Studio-controls, but it is no difficulty to drop the same fix in us-c
<OvenWerks> Which DAW? What if the number of open files limit?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ack. We can switch the bug into an SRU.
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: ^
<StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: Reaper, shouldn't be an issue. Files from other chapters are all offline. So, shouldn't be approaching any limit and not seeing high memory usage
<StevenJayCohen> Reaper for Linux
<StevenJayCohen> http://reaper.fm
 * OvenWerks doesn't know reaper at all aside from hearing good thnigs of it.
<StevenJayCohen> Free to use unlicensed if you want to try it out
<StevenJayCohen> talent back from break, back to recording
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: if I ever have time...
<StevenJayCohen> Session ended and I was looking through my log files. Could this cause the issue that I was describing? https://askubuntu.com/questions/1167586/memory-leak-in-tracker-extract
<StevenJayCohen> I just looked up tracker. Could it be that the mass creation of WAV files during a project might be at issue? Is there a way that I can prevent it working in a particular folder?
<OvenWerks> you would need to investigate further.
<StevenJayCohen> It would make sense if this was it, so maybe I just need to read up on indexing and tell it to never index the contents of the project folders
<OvenWerks> top or htop could be useful
<StevenJayCohen> good idea, I'll try that.
<OvenWerks> file writing does use memory as cache but application memory use always has priority and if there is not enough memory for caching drive blocks it will direct write
<OvenWerks> (to a point anyway)
<OvenWerks> audio applications _should_ be using memlock so as to never be swaped out
<StevenJayCohen> Right, that did occur to me. It's the only lead I have so far, and it may be a red herring
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: upload to us-c. Maybe build in dailies first and ask the reporter to see if this fixes their problem.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Building. If it works, we'll have to make it an SRU.
<OvenWerks> works ok here... but then i never had a problem in the first place
<OvenWerks> studio-controls als updated
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: in light of switching to the k desktop, is anything I put in controls for tablets going to add to that?
<Eickmeyer> Cool. I updated the bug report. This person seems responsive, so we should know soon.
<Eickmeyer> Going to Plasma, I think the stuff for tablets will just make an even more refined experience, but the person to ask about that would be eylul[m].
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Could you do a write-up about the firewire stuff that I can use for the blog? It seems this lack of firewire "support" has angered people and raised more than a fair share of eyebrows. So much so that I had to ban someone from the ML.
<studiobot> <teward001> > Firewire is a very old and obsolete hardware connector.  Over time, it has become so old and obsolete that we cannot continue to support it.  Therefore, 20.04 does not support Firewire devices.  This was a hard decision, however we cannot continue to support extremely obsolete hardware and connectors.
<studiobot> <teward001> quick little blurb from my butt ð
<OvenWerks> @teward001 the problem seems to be with the word "Support"
<OvenWerks> The kernel and jack still support firewire. We as people do not have the knowledge to offer support
<OvenWerks> For many people the new alsa FW modules just work.
 * OvenWerks uses an old PCI based audio card cause it is still much better than any USB audio device out there.... and it is not top of the line for sure. It is the same with fw devices, they are better than the USB devices available.
<OvenWerks> USB was not made for low latency audio by any stretch of the imagination
<OvenWerks> (this includes USB 1.1, 2.0 and 3.*)
<OvenWerks> In fact, the USB3.0 kernel drivers and mother board hardware are in many cases worse for profesional audio.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: which blurb (URL) am I rewriting?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: A pastebin would be more than adequate. :)
<OvenWerks> that is what I will send I just wanted to know what is written now.
<OvenWerks> I certainly want my spelling checked anyway :)
<Eickmeyer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<Eickmeyer> It's in the release notes under Ubuntu Studio Controls. Really, if that doesn't spell it out, I don't know what does.
<studiobot> <teward001> > Due to kernel compatibility reasons, Firewire devices are no longer supported.
<studiobot> <teward001> OvenWerks: if the kernel still supports FW, then that statement in the release notes is false
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: ^
<housecat> might help to rephrase "supported" to "officially supported by the UbuntuStudio project" or something
<housecat> i expect it's the two different meanings of "supported" that's throwing people off :(
<OvenWerks> yes that is certainly the problem
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, sorry, I was in the restroom.
<Eickmeyer> So, the thing is, it's under the bullet point of "Ubuntu Studio Controls" meaning Ubuntu Studio Controls doesn't support it. So, maybe I should take the kernel compatibility part out.
<Eickmeyer> housecat, @teward001 ^
<Eickmeyer> How does this read: Firewire devices are no longer supported under Ubuntu Studio Controls. Consider upgrading to a modern USB or PCIe audio interface.
<Eickmeyer> housecat, teward, OvenWerks
<studiobot> <teward001> that would work, but the release notes are already made, not sure if we should be editing them post release.  A blog post clarifying what we mean by support might work
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: but yes I would pull the Kernel part out
<studiobot> <teward001> since that part is wholly 'false'
<Eickmeyer> That's what I did. That paste was the entire bullet point.
<OvenWerks> I suppose that would be fine... but it is not true really. Firewire devices with alsa support will work just fine with -controls, however, if alsa support is not available for a device -controls will not beable to use it.
<Eickmeyer> Then how does this sound? "Firewire devices are no longer supported under Ubuntu Studio Controls unless they work with ALSA."
<OvenWerks> s/supported/available/  ??
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<Eickmeyer> "Firewire devices are no longer available under Ubuntu Studio Controls unless they work with ALSA. Consider upgrading to a modern USB or PCIe audio interface to take advantage of everything Ubuntu Studio Controls has to offer."
<Eickmeyer> ???
<OvenWerks> ok
<studiobot> <teward001> yep
<OvenWerks> I like putting what does work first rather than doesn't work unless
<OvenWerks> but, it is harder to make it sound smooth I guess
<Eickmeyer> If I were to do that, it'd be like, "While ALSA-compatible firewire devices will work, any device not compatible with ALSA will not" which just doesn't flow.
<Eickmeyer> Also creates a lot of duplication.
<OvenWerks> yeah thats what I meant
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-29
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: New response on bug 1872187
<ubottu> bug 1872187 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu Groovy) "ubuntustudio-controls crashed with IndexError in refresh_dropdowns(): list index out of range" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872187
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer:  different bug. The -controls part is fixed
<OvenWerks> The "Ubuntu Studio Controls" window is now visible and I can select the Jack Master Device (no USB) "chtrt5646,0,0 playback and capture device".
<OvenWerks> That is what I was fixing
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think the bug is fixed, the rest of things is pure support or a hw/firmware/user error. (pick one)
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. This sounds like a support issue now. I'll upload and start the SRU process in the morning.
<OvenWerks> no hurry, I think
<OvenWerks> I am glad to have it pointed out to me
<Eickmeyer> I've never known an audio device not to identify itself to the system like that.
<OvenWerks> I think it is actually hdmi or something
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (Riot.im is still having issues so please do tag me with telegram for now - re-plasma it just does come with a wacom utility of its own, and indicator, (doesn't take away from ubuntu-controls having its own version through)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and re-panel eickmeyer can you please explain the context of the question of the panel (and what you refer to as the panel? :) )
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu [and re-panel eickmeyer can you please explain the context of the question of the â¦], I think the entire panel discussion had more to do with how OvenWerks does his workflow. He was looking for a replacement for cairo.
<OvenWerks> yes, I like to have some sort of control to start apps when I log in with ssh -Y
<OvenWerks> The last time I installed cairo-pannel on xfce it brought in a lot of extra gnomish stuff... I figgured it would be worse with kubuntu.
<OvenWerks> latte-dock wocks just great
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would say that the regression potential on the -controls bug fix is next to nil :)
<OvenWerks> I would note that it has been tested on a system without this problem as well
<OvenWerks> (should you need to know that)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We can't say "none" because then it won't even get looked at.
<OvenWerks>  :)
<Eickmeyer> From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates: "If this section is None it is grounds for rejection..."
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> plasma has its own widget system as far as I know
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> so you don't have to use cairo at all
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ovenwerks and eickmeyer
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but then it would be plasma specific
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu I'm pretty sure this was for his own use and nothing to be a default.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> aah
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> in that case, KDE plasma has its own widgets
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> so no need to use cairo there
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> sorry. its been a strange week
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Well, latte-dock seems to be working (it's a KDE project).
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and riot.im is stuck at the moment so I realized belatedly that I missed posts from you
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ah
<OvenWerks> Hmm, maybe instead of setting up known tablets, I would be better off making invisible tablets visible...
<OvenWerks> My tablet shows up as a game controller... 
<OvenWerks> but all it shows is which button is pressed, no way to asign it, does not show position... blah
<OvenWerks> xsetpointer -l aside from my keyboard, mouse, webcam, power button, etc. also shows: 13: "HID 256c:006e Pad" [XExtensionPointer]
<OvenWerks> 14: "HID 256c:006e Pen" [XExtensionDevice]
<Eickmeyer> Well, I think we can all ignore that last FTB on the CD image. Seems as though Launchpad went down at just the wrong time.
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: I do not think I can come anywhere close to what KDE's tablet setup does. It is very good. The one area I can do though, is to make devices that are wacom compatable but do not show up for the KDE applet, show up.
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: I do seem to have managed to get buttons 2 and 3 reversed with no way of getting back to the screen where I set it up. :P (clumsy fingers)
<OvenWerks> now I can't find the file where the profile is stored :P
<OvenWerks> Oh, they go from being called wacom to being called tablet
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: a question for you... my screen is 1600x900 but somehow xsetwacom is using "Area" as 0 0 50800 31750
<OvenWerks> do you know who that relates?
<OvenWerks> It does seem to work correctly as only my left screen... 
<OvenWerks> So what do these numbers really mean?
<OvenWerks> when setting buttons on my tablet, the kde applet will not allow me to put in + even from the num pad it will show up as = I have to put in shift = I need to try it to see if it works. I guess
<OvenWerks> no, shift = does not equal +, I just have to put in =
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-30
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: playing around with plasma's wacom setup and I am realizing that any DE that has a tablet setup applet is going to cause the same trouble as -controls vs. Cadence. There will two applets trying to do the same thing. I am becoming much more unsure about duplicating this functionality
<Eickmeyer> Maybe it's time to save the effort?
<OvenWerks> I think it would be reasonable to make a non-wacom tablet visible to xsetwacom
<Eickmeyer> That I can agree with.
<OvenWerks> but kde already allows the set up of more than one profile on more than one device that can be switched with hot keys
<Eickmeyer> Maybe, instead of duplicating the effort then, you'd want to help improve the kcm? (KDE Control Module)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I also noticed (quite aside from that) that you put the change for ubuntustudio-controls in for GG as well as F but I thought for G we were changing the name to Studio-controls
<OvenWerks> That is a different package
<Eickmeyer> The problem there is that, for the SRU, GG had to have the fix before FF. That's a requirement .
<OvenWerks> I wondered that.
<OvenWerks> ok
<Eickmeyer> The dummy version will happen later.
<OvenWerks> my reason for asking is that my intent was to do all further development on S-c
<Eickmeyer> Right, and I agree, just little bugfixes like this need to get through too. I think we'll be in the clear after this.
<OvenWerks> I hope so
<Eickmeyer> If not, backports.
<OvenWerks> Ok, so I will remove most of the tablet stuff I have (it is mostly GUI anyway. And switch to detecting tablets xsetwacom does not.
<Eickmeyer> Ik
<Eickmeyer> *Ok
<OvenWerks> If you read the backscroll there are some of the numbers I don't understand anyway... in fact a lot of it
<OvenWerks> I will see if I can work with the developers of the KDE tablet setup as well. as I think it is not as intuitive as it could be
<Eickmeyer> I think they would appreciate that. RikMills would probably know who to get in touch with.
<OvenWerks> thats wierd, kubuntu has texdoctk installed but it is missing of of it's depends... it comes up with a screen that says: The program texdoctk needs the package perl-tk, please install it!
<Eickmeyer> I wonder if it has something to do with a licensing issue with perl?
<OvenWerks> perl-tk is in our repos
<Eickmeyer> Then perhaps it's an effort to keep iso size down.(I'm spitballing)
<OvenWerks> it seems an odd thing to be in kubuntu at all
<OvenWerks> I mean TK graphics?
<Eickmeyer> Something is likely using it as a dependency but not intending it be run directly.
<OvenWerks> it is a part of texlive-base
<OvenWerks> perl-tk is a suggests
<OvenWerks> probably a typesetting program I guess... maybe one of ours then
<Eickmeyer> Scribus?
<OvenWerks> as a suggests I think
<OvenWerks> it suggests texlive-latex-recommended which sounds like a meta
<OvenWerks> Not a meta but that would pull it in
<OvenWerks> Well I will say, it fits right in with my CDE theme
<OvenWerks> anyway, installing perl-tk just points out the data base is also not installed  :P
<OvenWerks> it is as happens a document reader
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> not sure how that numbers work there but it might have to do with the matrix setup
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> or ooh no
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ovenworks those are the position on the tablet I believe
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> tablets have a resolution of pixels where it detects the pressure. it maps that grid to the screen grid
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> not sure if this makes sense
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> re the overlap could we have a setting that says "use kde's tool instead" for what we already have?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> contributing to wacom's existing tool might be an idea
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the main issue with plasma one is that it doesnt automatically switch between profiles
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the other issue is brightness levels of screens of tablets but that is a very different and very large can of worms
 * StevenJayCohen now understands why Gnome theming is "broken"
<StevenJayCohen> I took a few days to do the research and I now get why so many themes break small things. I did some playing around with this and now have to catch up on editing audio :)
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: Re screen brightness, doent the display setup do that?
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: maybe the user I had trouble with screen coverage had the area set to bigger than the phisical pad somehow
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> screen brightness doesnt control external screens. there is one commandline utility that sort of controls backlight on some systems but with my old and new cintiq it doesnt work :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ovenwerks it might be to adjust to the screen proportions
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> if the proportions of their screen was not the exact proportion of the tablet? but that is a bit strange a lot of those settings in plasma wacom utility is via toggles and even if you need to do something custom you can go through the gui
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> so you will see those values sey but you do not need to manually adapt them.
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: so how do you adjust the screen brightness? I don't recall anything in xsetwacom
<OvenWerks> with regard toscreen area the person left with the idea of this doesn't work so theyre gone so I don't have someone to try with.
<OvenWerks> but if the area was set to more pix than the tablet had then they would not be able access all the screen.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I dont
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> xD
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> set the screen brightness that is. there currently is no way to do it
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: so your screen/tablet is a USB device? what shows on the screen? does it mirror one of the system screens? act as an extension to system screens?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh I can adjust what it shows with kde display settings
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> arandr or xrandr if I want to scale it up or down
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it connects via hdmi
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but there is no way to adjust the backlight levels
<OvenWerks> but the kde setting don't have brightness?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> for primary screen (my laptop) it does
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but that doesnt handle the external screen
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it is a pretty well known problem
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it was same with xfce btw
<OvenWerks> have you used the gama settings screen?
<OvenWerks> that would not effect the backlite though
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> that is not the same thing
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yes I can use xbackground to lower the backlight to 0 but the backlight is still on and bright
<OvenWerks> no... err well it is with a CRT :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> hahah
 * OvenWerks has used it with a crt
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> xD
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I am sorry but I am laughing out loud at this
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> <3
 * OvenWerks has been around a while
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yep.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> they have not been used for ummm more than a decade and half? :)
<OvenWerks> I replaced the last one here about 4 months ago.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> brb groceries
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu:so your tablet has two connections to the computer: USB and HDMI? And the tablet itself has no controls for brightness?
<OvenWerks> HDMI does not have controls, the mintor is expected to have it's own controls, does the tablet have no settings?
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: is there a way of setting brightness on win/macos?
<OvenWerks> if the device does not have settings switches on board and windows has, then it must be sent through USB. Does xsetpointer -l show more than two devices?
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: looking at the manual for one of the cintiq tablets, it shows that from their control applet it is possible to set backlight.
<OvenWerks> I find it funny that the manual on the cover shows it as only for one device but the applet graphic says "The available options listed below will vary, depending on your device" The manual writer was too lazy to get a new screen shot for each manual :P
<OvenWerks> (should be fired)
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: If xsetpointer -l shows three devices that are a part of your tablet (same id) does xsetwacom list devices also show those three devices?
<OvenWerks> And can you paste the output of xsetwacom xsetwacom -s get 'HID 256c:006e Pad pad' all
<OvenWerks> but replace the 'HID 
<OvenWerks>                    256c:006e Pad pad' with each device xsetwacom list devices shows?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Ovenwerks: yes my tablet has 2 connectors. a usb and HDMI (some VERY new tablets have single usb-c in some cases but it is the same end result as far as I know)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and yes I believe in windows the wacom driver allows you to set the screen backlight
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it is not a wacom/tablet specific problem
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> this is a problem that happens with many external screens that doesn't have hardware buttons to adjust
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> xsetwacom shows 3 devices, but the pad doesn't have a brightness option
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> generally xsetwacom doesn't deal with the viewing part at all, that one is delegated to what is handling the external screens
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> sure one sec
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok this is interesting
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I only have pen stylus and pen eraser, on this new cintiq 16, not a "pad" device
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I use xsetwacom âlist
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but as I said it wouldn't necessarily matter in this case. I believe as the pad only deals with the pad mapping (the area that you move the pointer in) not the screen that happens to be under it
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Cintiq 16 (2019 model)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Area" "400 400 69232 39118" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Button" "1" "button +1 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Button" "2" "button +2 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Button" "3" "button +3 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Button"
<studiobot>  "8" "button +8 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "ToolDebugLevel" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "TabletDebugLevel" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Suppress" "2" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "RawSample" "4" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "PressureCurve" "0 0 100 100" â¦ 
<studiobot> xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Mode" "Absolute" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "TabletPCButton" "off" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Touch" "off" â¦ Property 'Wacom Hardware Touch Switch' does not exist on device. â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Gesture" "off" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 P
<studiobot> en stylus" "ZoomDistance" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "ScrollDistance" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "TapTime" "250" â¦ Property 'Wacom Proximity Threshold' does not exist on device. â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Rotate" "none" â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Proper
<studiobot> ty 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Pr
<studiobot> operty 'Wacom Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Threshold" "27" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "BindToSerial" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "Press
<studiobot> ureRecalibration" "on" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen stylus" "PanScrollThreshold" "2600"
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Area" "400 400 69232 39118" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Button" "1" "button +1 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Button" "2" "button +2 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Button" "3" "button +3 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Button"
<studiobot>  "8" "button +8 " â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "ToolDebugLevel" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "TabletDebugLevel" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Suppress" "2" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "RawSample" "4" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "PressureCurve" "0 0 100 100" â¦ 
<studiobot> xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Mode" "Absolute" â¦ Property 'Wacom Hover Click' does not exist on device. â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Touch" "off" â¦ Property 'Wacom Hardware Touch Switch' does not exist on device. â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Gesture" "off" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" 
<studiobot> "ZoomDistance" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "ScrollDistance" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "TapTime" "250" â¦ Property 'Wacom Proximity Threshold' does not exist on device. â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Rotate" "none" â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom W
<studiobot> heel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Wheel Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wac
<studiobot> om Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ Property 'Wacom Strip Buttons' does not exist on device. â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "Threshold" "27" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "BindToSerial" "0" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "PressureRecalibr
<studiobot> ation" "on" â¦ xsetwacom set "Wacom Cintiq 16 Pen eraser" "PanScrollThreshold" "2600"
<Eickmeyer> Ack! Gonna break the bot!!!!
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the whole thing might not be copying to IRC
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> sorry
<Eickmeyer> !paste | @azbutlutlu
<ubottu> @azbutlutlu: For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use https://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use https://imgur.com/ !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *goes to do that
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but hey I don't normally do this part. :)
<Eickmeyer> :D
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wkXmNyJgtx/
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> there we go
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> @eickmeyer in all fairness through I think the bot broke before I pasted that in :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> nvm, it is just the logs that didn't catch up yet...
<Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu It's all good. Seems to be normal on the IRC end.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: by paste I meant something like comand |pastebinit and give the url...
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: try looking at:https://github.com/linuxwacom/input-wacom/wiki/Display-Settings-(Brightness,-Contrast,-etc.)
<OvenWerks> apparently it is separate from /dev/input/*
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu:I assume the "Area" "400 400 69232 39118" means that you have soft buttons as part of the pad area
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: I would assume that is the same problem one of the people was having where they could not move the pen to the top of the screen. Actually 400 might be a scroll bar
<OvenWerks> there are no controls in the paste that look like display control.
<OvenWerks> it looks like ddcutil is the thing that can work.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it looks like the ddcutil package may become dep for controls
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: I think the best thing to do with -controls, is to first cover the parts of tablet setting that the DE tablet setup applet does not cover.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok
<Eickmeyer> !info ddcutil groovy
<ubottu> ddcutil (source: ddcutil): Query and change monitor settings - command line application. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.9.8-4 (groovy), package size 211 kB, installed size 626 kB
 * OvenWerks wonders what "Pen eraser" is...
<Eickmeyer> I can answer that. When a certain button on a wacom tablet pen is activated, it tells the tablet to use the pen as an eraser.
<OvenWerks> yeah but that is more of an application thing. I don't see that as being a tablet end thing... kind of over kill to add a whole interface for just that.
<Eickmeyer> Agreed. The application should be able to sense the eraser button. Nothing to do with config.
<OvenWerks> The tablet has buttons (1 to 3 and 8 to 16) the xsetwacom command can set those buttons to act like a keyboard sending the cammands that undo, set eraser mode, zoom in/out or whatever the user desires
<OvenWerks> The pen acts as three buttons that dulicate buttons 1-3 on a mouse
 * OvenWerks wanders off for a bit
<eylul[m]> ovenwerks: I can tell you ddcutil doesn't work. :) 
<eylul[m]> and pen eraser is the drawing option at the back of the pen. 
<eylul[m]> both sides of the pen has pressure sensitivity, it IS useful to have it even if you are not using it as an eraser (it is equally useful to use it say as a larger brush and swap between the two)
<Eickmeyer> eylul[m]: Is that configured at the application level?
<eylul[m]> it can be
<eylul[m]> some applications see it automatically as an eraser
<Eickmeyer> That's my experience.
<eylul[m]> some see it as a second pen,
<eylul[m]> some unfortunately keeps using it like front glares at inkscape
<eylul[m]> it is a lot easier than to have to press a key
<eylul[m]> especially in newer wacoms without the key shortcuts on left side
<eylul[m]> (the newer cintiqs do not have shortcut buttons)
<eylul[m]> (they sell a separate device for that...)
<eylul[m]> sorry this is probably more you guys want to know about tablets ;D
<Eickmeyer> I'm thinking in terms of the Microsoft Surface Pro which is pretty much a Wacom tablet on steroids when used in conjunction with the pen.
<Eickmeyer> And yes, it can run Linux, but requires a special kernel to take advantage of the tablet and touchscreen functions.
<eylul[m]> I believe it uses wacom technology actually
<Eickmeyer> Oh, it absolutely does.
<eylul[m]> a lot of the pen devices, laptops etc do
<eylul[m]> I would argue that proper cintiqs are more on stereoids
<eylul[m]> better pen sensitivity and resolution
<eylul[m]> easier to use pens. and you do have a screen :))
<eylul[m]> wacom also has computer devices too..
<eylul[m]> so slate computers with the high end digitizer :))
<eylul[m]> also yeah same problem with linux I believe
<Eickmeyer> IPTS support hasn't completely landed in Linux yet.
<eylul[m]> nods
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: so ddcutil doesn't work? even with the kernel module installed?
<eylul[m]> I... think not?
<eylul[m]> I mean I did follow the instructions that were given but didn't work after rebooting
<eylul[m]> basically it is not seeing the screen
<eylul[m]> I wasn't exactly sure which stage the whole thing was breaking through because I wasn't able to see if the kernel module was loading or not
<eylul[m]> hang on let me check my notes on it
<eylul[m]> oh yes, I now remember what happened with it
<eylul[m]> it doesn't like nvidia drivers. xD
<eylul[m]> there is a solution-ish https://www.ddcutil.com/nvidia/
<eylul[m]> that's what i tried
<eylul[m]> and it didn't work. but I wasn't sure if the settings didn't fix themselves
<eylul[m]> or because it doesn't work with my version of card/driver anyway :D
<OvenWerks> so wireshark usb bus while running the utility in wine...
<OvenWerks> (unless it really does do something through hdmi)
<eylul[m]> is not sure
<OvenWerks> while my son would love a screen type tablet... That is not likely to happen anytime soon. He also uses a nvidia driver.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: RE: bug #1872187 do get it correctly that only someone with the bug can to the confirm testing? (SRU Verification)
<ubottu> bug 1872187 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu Focal) "[SRU] ubuntustudio-controls crashed with IndexError in refresh_dropdowns(): list index out of range" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872187
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Unfortunately, that's how SRUs work. Oliver has been plenty responsive.
<OvenWerks> I will take no action then :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-01
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Honestly. ~/.lv2 would be the way to go.
<Eickmeyer> Unrelated:
<Eickmeyer> I'm starting the movement to Plasma right now for the seed.
<Eickmeyer> I'll be removing the desktop-core metapackage as it's just redundant now.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: For most people (single user does audio) ~/.lv2 would be easiest and best. No sudo needed. The expectation of a "package" by many people is that it will work with any user. So 6 of one half dozen of the other...
<Eickmeyer> In the case of snaps and flatpaks, they're made so that they can be installed to only the current user, not system-wide.
<OvenWerks> Which desktop package from kubuntu will you start with? The minimum or the full?
<OvenWerks> I did not know that
<OvenWerks> I don't see anything in the full I would not want... though I have not looked closely
<Eickmeyer> So, the way it works is that everything is in the "desktop" seed. minimal is derived from that using a "remove" in germinate.
<Eickmeyer> I don't see any reason to use "full".
<OvenWerks> Ah so it is the same seed anyway
<OvenWerks> Wat do they remove? The full install does not seem that "full" to me
<Eickmeyer> Basically, I'm copy/pasting the "desktop" seed to our "desktop" seed and removing the "desktop-core" seed while tweaking kubuntu-specific stuff to be ubuntustudio. (settings, plymouth & grub themes)
<Eickmeyer> (wallpapers)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: How are things at home?
<OvenWerks> (take care of the family first)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: My wife doesn't have COVID. She's been working from home all week. Son is working on homeschool stuff now. Everything is fine here. :)
<OvenWerks> Cool
<Eickmeyer> I've been taking most of the week to try to chill out. Since our daily ISO started building yesterday, I decided now was the time to at least get started on the switch.
<OvenWerks> Good. I think I have two partitions I can play with. I will put a stock 20.04 Studio on one and use the other for 20.10 tryouts
<OvenWerks> My daily has switched from 18.04 Studio to 20.04 studio on top of kubuntu
 * OvenWerks is still finding applications/packages missing for productive work :P
<Eickmeyer> Same here. (19.10 to 20.04 Studio on Kubuntu)
<OvenWerks> Got some new headphones today, Samson SR850. They are AKG knock-offs with venting. So made for mixing not tracking. they sound very nice... good enough I have looked around a few times cause I thought the noise I heard was in the same room :)
<Eickmeyer> Oh nice. I have some $20 behringers that work for monitoring, but get uncomfortable after a while. Other than that the sound reproduction is top notch. I also have some Presonus studio monitors that are reallllly nice.
<StevenJayCohen> Eickmeyer: OvenWerks : Are you planning on requesting a custom Yaru color for Studio? https://github.com/ubuntu/yaru/issues/2170#issuecomment-621376909
<StevenJayCohen> <OvenWerks "Got some new headphones today, S"> I work in either AKG 271s or AKG 503s.
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Nope. Yaru only affects Ubuntu proper. We don't use Yaru. Right now, what I'm doing with the seed is just using Breeze for now. Might show up in the dalies as soon as tomorrow.
<StevenJayCohen> I used to use AKG 240s but needed a bit more isolation
<StevenJayCohen> Eickmeyer: Read the comment, the Yaru team will make a Yaru version for any flavor that wants it. So, the Studio branding could extend into the standard gnome install with no extra work for you
<StevenJayCohen> "The closest thing is to release an entire new set of Yaru-ish themes, each one with different accent colors (blue, green, etc.), which we are already planning to do for the Ubuntu flavors that want it"
<Eickmeyer> We'll think about it. An accent color for us would, of course, be blue, but they would need to have a Qt/KDE version too.
<Eickmeyer> At least, *I* will think about it. :)
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: I think these are AKG 240 knockoffs, about half the price
<OvenWerks> I got my son some closed cans (good quality) which he loves, but I find my ears feel "pressurized".
<OvenWerks> BTW what is "Yaru"
<Eickmeyer> Yaru is the default theme for Ubuntu (proper/vanilla).
<OvenWerks> So a gnome based thing... 
<Eickmeyer> Not really. It's a GTK theme.
<Eickmeyer> It's also an icon theme.
<OvenWerks> So how does that work with plasma? Does it need a conversion
<Eickmeyer> Ok, seed changed, uploaded, metas changed and uploaded, default-settings changed and uploaded... in the words of Samuel L. Jackson in Jurassic Park, "Hold on to your butts."
<StevenJayCohen> <OvenWerks "I got my son some closed cans (g"> My daughter stole my Sennheiser 280s. And my son won't use anything but BeyerDynamics -- audiofile that he is.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Nah, I don't think it'll be of any consequence to us.
<Eickmeyer> Unless we make it one.
<Eickmeyer> BTW, before changing -meta and -default settings, I branched the sucker.
<StevenJayCohen> <OvenWerks "So how does that work with plasm"> It would afect people installing Studio into regular Ubuntu. When they'd get Studio Branding, it would include a custom version of the default Gnome 3 theme using your colors isntead of the purple and orange.
<StevenJayCohen> > <@freenode_OvenWerks:matrix.org> So how does that work with plasma? Does it need a conversion
<StevenJayCohen>  * It would afect people installing Studio into regular Ubuntu. When they'd get Studio Branding, it would include a custom version of the default Gnome 3 theme using your colors instead of the purple and orange.
<Eickmeyer> We don't really change the branding for Gnome as it is right now.
<StevenJayCohen> my point exatly, its on the roadmap for the Yaru team to provide them to the flavours (if the flavours want it)
<Eickmeyer> I think we'll follow Kubuntu's lead on that one.
<StevenJayCohen> Dejected, the former macOS themer sighs quietly, lowers his head in disappointment, and trudges away...
<StevenJayCohen> :)
<StevenJayCohen> Sorry, I'm a recovering  theme geek
<Eickmeyer> Hehehehe
<Eickmeyer> Unrelated: metas and -default-settings built. I guess tomorrow we'll find out whether or not the ISO builds.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so breeze theme but the old icon theme still?
<StevenJayCohen> When I have an extra studio machine not in use, I can test there. Until then, I could use a VM to test if that helps
<Eickmeyer> Breeze theme and icons. Basically, exact same as Kubuntu for now. I have yet to get really in-depth with tweaking.
<OvenWerks> If you are just looking at the desktop that would work fine... low latency audio may not be (lwo latency that is :)
<Eickmeyer> I did switch it to our plymouth theme, moved the panel to the top, and changed the icon to the Black-On-White version of ours.
<StevenJayCohen> Let me know when you need a tester NOT using KDE. I'd be happy to test installing into 20.10 Gnome for you.
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Will do.
<OvenWerks> Thats mostly whay I have... well, my window decorations are a bit different.
<Eickmeyer> ^ CDE-4-lyfe for this guy.
<StevenJayCohen> Breeze and Materia-KDE are a nice match
<Eickmeyer> Also, I need the materia-kde package in the archive first.
<StevenJayCohen> Then Materia GTK makes it all match and the graphics people won't have a fit when they open a Gnome app
<Eickmeyer> teward: When you have a chance, new package: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/materia-kde/+git/materia-kde (the KDE version of materia-gtk-theme). Was braindead simple.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-02
<teward> later.
<teward> E:IsTired and E:IsTakingDayOff
<Eickmeyer> teward: No worries.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I know why I didn't touch it. Ross updated it in Debian and it sync'd. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hexter
<Eickmeyer> I had updated it in Fedora and it works there.
<Eickmeyer> So, something isn't right.
<OvenWerks> Actually hexter does not show up as a plugin in Carla
<OvenWerks> Maybe it is just the desktop file is still in there
<Eickmeyer> Interestingly enough, the desktop file was the part that Ross supposedly fixed. :P
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: as I recall we added a desktop file as part of our default-settings?
 * Eickmeyer is looking
<Eickmeyer> Nope, that hdspmixer.desktop
<OvenWerks> There is no hexter in /usr/bin/ or /usr/lib/dssi/
<Eickmeyer> No. The icon launches jack-dssi. That might be what's going wrong.
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [<Eickmeyer> teward: No worries.], yeah i've got a few things ahead of this
<studiobot> <teward001> including a total redesign of the nginx packaging
<studiobot> <teward001> so I mean
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<Eickmeyer> yikes. I don't envy that.
<studiobot> <teward001> yeah well i already have it prototyped
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It launches jack-dssi-host. I think that's what is buggy. Maybe it doesn't exist?
<Eickmeyer> Nope, it exists.
<OvenWerks> it is hexter that doesn't exist
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: it's in /usr/lib/x86_674-linux-gnu/dssi/hexter
<Eickmeyer> Seems as though it's not being called correctly.
<OvenWerks> that is not a valid dssi directory
<OvenWerks> it is the same as all other plugins, there should be arch in the path name
<OvenWerks> I can get Carla to load it... after linking it to /usr/lib/dssi
<OvenWerks> but no gui
<Eickmeyer> I got it working on Fedora, so I don't know what's different there.
<OvenWerks> dexed is still actively developed, but it not clear to me what it puts out... https://github.com/asb2m10/dexed
<OvenWerks> There are two file Dexed and Dexed.so. Running Dexed gives a jack client but Dexed.so I have no idea. It seems no matter where in the path I put it Carla does not see it as a plugin (I suspect vst3)
<OvenWerks> Oh wonderful, I just discovered that the hexters I tried to start... are still running, just no gui to control them.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: now that I have played with Dexed for more than 2 minutes... I realize it is pretty much no use.
<Eickmeyer> That's what I ran into when trying to build it for Fedora.
<OvenWerks> I can run it, I can get sound out from it... but I can not see it as a jack client. It shows up in pulse.
<Eickmeyer> Weird.
<OvenWerks> also while it does have a setting to put midi out rather than audio... there appears no way to send midi in so I am guessing it is using raw midi and possibly blocking midi from jack... or maybe not getting midi in because a2jmidid already has it.
<OvenWerks> It does look for the vst3 sdk headers but does not seem to put out a vst3 (or does our version of Carla not deal with those yet?)
<Eickmeyer> So, Steinberg were jerks about this and made vst3 non-redistributable or something like that.
<OvenWerks> I just found the "options" button
<OvenWerks> I can get a jack client
<OvenWerks> It can be made to work :/
<Eickmeyer> I should probably explore it more then.
<OvenWerks> Dexed will take in either a hw midi port or MIDI through
<OvenWerks> so I can set jackkeyboard to midi through in a2jmidid and set Dexed to midi through as a midi input and jack keyboard will play Dexed
<Eickmeyer> That sounds overcomplicated.
<OvenWerks> Dexed provides it's own theme... and it's own title bar
<OvenWerks>  which is where the Options button is.
<OvenWerks> It is over complicated. It does have Falktx' fingerprint on it at some point... probably to make work in Linux at all
<OvenWerks> Perhaps when Carla does vst3, Dexed will work as a plugin
<OvenWerks> (like maybe Falktx will make lxvst3 work)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Dexed has a lot of commits since the last release. It may become worth while in the future.
<Eickmeyer> I noticed that too. Worth keeping an eye on.
<OvenWerks> hexter_gtk -test fails even.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: just for reference sake. It is possible to save a bit of screen space with Ardour 5.12 by detaching both the editor and the mixer. The main window can then be shrunk to just the transport bar size and both the editor and mixer will also be smaller
<OvenWerks> Of course the down side is that you now have three windows to place instead of two :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Never done that, but good to know.
<OvenWerks> in Ardour 6 the mani window can be shurnk whatever is attached, but detached mixer windows are actually limited to a larger size than 5.12
<StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: when you have a chance, could I send you a description of my Reaper workflow to see if you think it would be easily adapted to Ardour? 
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: does the plasma seed pull in the generic kernel?
<Eickmeyer> It shouldn't. The problem we're having (in groovy) was a conflict with appmenu-gtk3-module. In Focal? Nothing should've changed.
<Eickmeyer> I suspect something in livecd-rootfs went haywire and the release team is looking at it (RE: generic kernel)
<OvenWerks> I thought the focal iso was released, why are we still building it?
<OvenWerks>  I thought the next build would be .1
<OvenWerks> (or close like beta)
<housecat> LTS releases that still have upcoming point releases still get daily ISOs
<housecat> for much the same reason that unreleased versions get them
<Eickmeyer> ^
<OvenWerks> right ... so they can fail, before the beta
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-03
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I figured out what's going on with the focal seed. It's pulling-in linux-lowlatency and linux-lowlatency-hwe from the Hardware neablement Stack, as the LTS .x releases are supposed to do. Not sure why the conflict, but I'm willing to bet the release team will figure it out.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: thanks, that did have me puzzled as I would think at this point there would be no difference
<Eickmeyer> I think the builders are pulling-in linux-lowlatency when they should be targeting -hwe instead at this point.
<Eickmeyer> Nothing we can change on our end, it's in the hardcoding of the builders.
<OvenWerks> no worries
 * OvenWerks wanders off to breakfast
 * Eickmeyer is having a "Holy crap, it actually worked" moment.
<Eickmeyer> Latest daily is Plasma. Unthemed, vanilla, default breeze Plasma, but it's a start. I consider it a blank canvas at this point.
<RikMills> oooooh
<StevenJayCohen> <Eickmeyer "Latest daily is Plasma. Unthemed"> perfect
<StevenJayCohen> It's nice to start from scratch and leave the past behind
<RikMills> vanilla plasma is quite good nowadays
<StevenJayCohen> Same with Gnome. IMO just about all other gnome themes are boken in one way or another.
<StevenJayCohen>  * Same with Gnome. IMO just about all other gnome themes are broken in one way or another.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: are you doing anything on this? tweet or other social media?
<RikMills> I wondered if KDE promo might like to know as well
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: We announced the move with the release announcement. I'll probably do a post with all the socials later this week with progress.
<RikMills> :)
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: I'm finding an interesting symlink and I can't find what creates it unless I'm missing something. You have /usr/share/plasma/desktoptheme/kubuntu/colors as a symlink to breeze-dark, but I can't find what's making it.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: kubuntu settings is
<Eickmeyer> Oh gee, I'm a bot. Thanks, I see it now.
<RikMills> https://git.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/+git/kubuntu-settings/tree/debian/kubuntu-settings-desktop.links?h=kubuntu_focal_archive
<Eickmeyer> Yep, found it.
<RikMills> I did it like that, so that our dark theme will always change as upstreams does. So it self maintains for the most part
<Eickmeyer> That is pretty sweet.
<RikMills> looks nice!
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Thanks. It's got a ways to go. I want to change the default background, make the default plasma theme dark (looks like I've accomplished that with the settings changes I've made), and move the panel to the top.
<RikMills> haha. you will upset the KDE guys
<Eickmeyer> Meh, if people want a "pure" KDE experience, they've got Kubuntu.
<Eickmeyer> I'm trying to make the transition from Xfce as smooth as possible.
<Eickmeyer> Simply moving the panel to the top and using our background will accomplish that. I'm also going to use the kde version of our Materia theme when that gets into the archive.
<RikMills> sounds good :)
