#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-22
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<derek[] > Hi AndyFitz 
<AndyFitz> g'day derek[] 
<derek[] > What are you working on?
<derek[] > AndyFitz, have you ever used a graphic-tablet on linux?
<AndyFitz> derek,  yep my 17" wacom intuous used to get alot of work back when I thought I could draw.  now I'm just as happy to use a mouse  ;-
<AndyFitz> );-)
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > I see
<derek[] > Do you use blender?
<AndyFitz> that said  inkscapes calligraphy tablet support is rockin
<AndyFitz> derek,  no  I prefer to model with wings3d.  I rarely need to do 3d stuff however did a fair bit of 3d  in an animation scholarship I did 4 years back  ( blender can't read models from my *.max files
<AndyFitz> blender looks rocking but all I do with it is play with the monkey, subsurfacing and rendering lights
<derek[] > Check this out: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/wireless/2003/01/16/tablet_pc.html
<AndyFitz> the modelling is a bit annoying  and everyone has different modelling styles  so I prefer wings3d
<derek[] > thanks for wings3d
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-23
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<Mini-NuX> Hello
<Mini-NuX> Whos is author of => http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-24
<Mini-NuX> Whos is author of => http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/
<derek[] > Hi
<derek[] > hi miketech 
<miketech> hi derek[]  
<derek[] > sup?
<miketech> sup?
<derek[] > = what's up?
<derek[] > :)
<miketech> ah :)
<derek[] > where are you from?
<miketech> from germany
<miketech> i am just learning some stuff for university
<miketech> and you?
<derek[] > I thought so .. I remembered talking to you before
<derek[] > India
<miketech> yeah possible :)
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > are you the one using mac at work?
<miketech> hm no 
<derek[] > k
<miketech> :)
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > hey
<derek[] > I was thinking
<miketech> next try :)
<miketech> well, don't know, what we have been talking about
<derek[] > how would it be if Ubuntu makes a version specially for Graphic-Designers?
<miketech> a version specially for graphic-designers? how should it look like?
<derek[] > with all the programs used by designers, pre-installed
<derek[] > that's it
<miketech> ah
<miketech> hm
<miketech> what do u wanna install?
<miketech> inkscape and gimp?
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > well yes 
<derek[] > of course those two
<derek[] > and blender3d
<miketech> why not simply installing it?
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > it was just a thought
<miketech> well, another idea:
<derek[] > btw, I'm not a using linux
<derek[] > yes?
<miketech> what are you using?
<derek[] > btw, I'm not using linux
<miketech> extending the ubuntu installer with profiles
<derek[] > windoze for now :|
<miketech> a profile "designer", "developer" and so on
<derek[] > waiting for new hardware to install Ubuntu
<miketech> and then everything needed is installed
<derek[] > miketech, yes
<derek[] > like in Flash
<miketech> hm isn't ubuntu running on your current machine?
<derek[] > no it isn't.
<miketech> what are you working on?
<miketech> working at
<miketech> ( i think )
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > personal work
<derek[] > nothing for ubuntu-artwork atm
<miketech> and what machine is it?
<derek[] > well i've not worked for it ever
<miketech> this was what i meant *g*
<derek[] > windoze
<miketech> yeah but the hardware
<derek[] > p4
<miketech> this is enough for ubuntu :)
<derek[] > by new hardware I meant, either a new hard disk to install linux, or we may get a new computer
<miketech> ah i see
<miketech> have you ever worked with linux?
<derek[] > yes
<derek[] > 2-3 years back
<miketech> oh ok *g*
<derek[] > redhat 7.3
<miketech> i thought you were new to this issue
<derek[] > no :)
<miketech> and.... how... is it working with windows? :)
<derek[] > heh
<derek[] > sick :(
<derek[] > I don't like it anymore
<derek[] > I want to explore the open source OS
<miketech> are u using ubuntu or kubuntu?
<derek[] > and migrate to it permanently
<miketech> in the future i mean :)
<miketech> good idea :)
<derek[] > I'll use ubuntu
<miketech> ah k
* derek[]  - playing chess on Yahoo
<miketech> hehe enjoying the weekend
<derek[] > Spielst du sheck(sp?) ?
<miketech> sheck(sp?)?
<miketech> you are speaking german?
<derek[] > yes
<derek[] > how do you say "chess" in German?
<miketech> schach
<derek[] > ja
<derek[] > Bitte
<miketech> ah :)
<derek[] > :)
<miketech> no, i am not playing chess
<miketech> it's a game needing too much time
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > ok
<derek[] > Was spielst du gern?
<miketech> hmm 
<miketech> I like volleyball :)
<derek[] > :)
<miketech> but i don't play computer games
<miketech> programming in the game for me :)
<miketech> in = is
<derek[] > nice :)
<miketech> and i have to learn a lot
<derek[] > and I only play computer games
<miketech> hehe 
<derek[] > learn a lot?
<miketech> yeah
<derek[] > in the uni you mean?
<miketech> yup
<derek[] > what are you studying?
<miketech> computer science
<miketech> in german "informatik"
<derek[] > okay
<derek[] > how many years?
<miketech> it's very nice.
<derek[] > kurs
<miketech> since 2 years
<miketech> fifth semester now
<miketech> hard but nice :)
<miketech> are you studying too?
<derek[] > not formally
<derek[] > but at home
<miketech> ah
<derek[] > the usual learning
<derek[] > designing
<miketech> usual learning? *g*
<derek[] > yeah. you know you always learn a new thing about the computers every day
<miketech> designing isn't usual :) otherwise i could learn it too :))
<derek[] > yea its not usual
<miketech> and i really can't :)
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > its actually my profession
<miketech> cool
<miketech> so that's the reason being here?
<derek[] > yeah
<derek[] > I am very grateful to the open source community
<miketech> so we will see some artwork of you in the future?
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > I hope so
<miketech> yeah me too
<miketech> hehe oki
<miketech> i am anxious to
<miketech> i am curious about it
<miketech> this is the better one :)
<derek[] > :)
<miketech> oki but now i have to continue working
<derek[] > Welche Stadt du wohnst in?
<derek[] > what are you working on?
<miketech> learning :)
<derek[] > :)
<miketech> have to do assignments
<derek[] > i see
<miketech> and i have been lazy a few days :)
<miketech> have a nice weekend bye
<derek[] > Auf Wiedersehen!
<miketech> :) 
<derek[] > you didn't answer one question ;)
<miketech> near Stuttgart
<derek[] > ok. gut!
<miketech> Karlsruhe
<derek[] > tschuess!
<miketech> this region
<derek[] > I see :)
<miketech> oki :) bye
<derek[] > :) bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-25
<zyga> hello folks
<benplaut> anyone here make metacity themes?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-27
<onkarshinde> Where can I suggest new artwork?
<onkarshinde> anybody listening?
<derek[] > yes
<derek[] > but I don't know where
<onkarshinde> derek[] : Well my suggestion is that Ubuntu should have CD covers artwork as in case of OpenOffice.org
<derek[] > you don't like the current CD cover design?
<onkarshinde> where is it?
<onkarshinde> derek[] : Just wait. I will show you what exactly I mean
<onkarshinde> derek[] : I am talking about something like this http://marketing.openoffice.org/art/galleries/cdart/
<derek[] > Ubuntu's CD have that kind of artwork
<derek[] > orange-yellow theme
<derek[] > btw, try this for posting your suggestions: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<onkarshinde> derek[] : Do you know where?
<derek[] > onkarshinde, I have the CDs here at my place.
<derek[] > (This might interest you too: http://art.ubuntu.com/ )
<onkarshinde> derek[] : Are you talking about CDs provided by shipit?
<derek[] > Yes
<derek[] > what are you talking about?
<onkarshinde> I was saying that if someone wants to distribute Ubuntu CDs then it will be good if we have some standar set of CD stickers/covers and cardbord CD covers
<derek[] > I see
<derek[] > onkarshinde, http://www.linuxexpres.cz/index.php?show=001051023
<derek[] > onkarshinde, there you can download the SVG
<derek[] > but the logo on that artwork violates the standard
<derek[] > it should be rotated in a certain angle
<derek[] > relative to the title
<onkarshinde> derek[] : This is what I was talking about. It will be better if there was some standard official thing.
<derek[] > This is the kind I got: http://blog.henne.cc/archives/2005/06/17/
<derek[] > http://blog.henne.cc/wp-content/images/ubuntu_cds.jpg
<derek[] > onkarshinde, you can talk to someone else here.. may be they know an the official CD artwork is available
<derek[] > *if an
<derek[] > hallo mpathy 
<mpathy> Hi :)
<derek[] > :)
<mpathy> Gehts hier immer noch so chaotisch zu wie am Anfang *g*
<derek[] > zu wie am Anfang = ?
<mpathy> Naja, chaotische Wikipages, keine regelmigen Treffen, nix organisiert, in den Mailinglisten werden die eigenen Gedankenblitze gepostet aber ansonsten aneinander vorbei geredet - deshalb hab ich mich zurckgezogen.. ;) ..wie wrs mit einem ubuntu-artwork-de ?? ;)
<derek[] > I don't know German so well :)
<mpathy> oh sorry! 
<derek[] > so what did you say?
<mpathy> I mean, chaotic wiki pages, no regular IRC meetings, mailing posts with many "here is my NEW mockup" but not much teamwork.. thats why I'm only passively right now (and I thought you were german, and I meant why not create a wikipage in our german think-tank ;) ubuntuusers.de) 
<mpathy> so forget the last part.. but the first part is my opinion
<derek[] > I see
<derek_> hi mgalvin 
<mgalvin> hi derek_
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-20
<kwwii> moin
<klepas> moinmoin kwwii
<kwwii> howdy klepas
<elkbuntu> hello kwwii :)
<kwwii> hi elkbuntu :-)
<kwwii> elkbuntu: make it home ok?
<elkbuntu> kwwii, yeah, i arrived home at the start of a cold snap... it was actually colder here than in SF, so my body promptly caught a cold :(
<kwwii> yeah, about the same thing happened to me...in addition to taking a few days till I could sleep at night
<kwwii> it's finally getting better now :-)
<elkbuntu> hehe.. i had no problem with that. flus/colds are great for forced sleep
<kwwii> ;-)
<elkbuntu> although, my bodyclock is now stuck in 'normal people' time, rather than geek time
<kwwii> hehe
<elkbuntu> how was allhands?
<kwwii> I am actually getting up early in the morning! it might last like a week or so
<lapo_> hi
<fschoep> just checking, I'll be back in a jiffy
<troy_s> PingunZ wb
<PingunZ> troy_s, ty :)
<PingunZ> how are you troy_s ?
<PingunZ> fschoep,
<PingunZ> !!
<troy_s> theres frank too
<fschoep> Hi there PingunZ
<fschoep> troy_s: I hope I'm on time
<PingunZ> I'm back on ubuntu :)
<troy_s> yeah i just woke up
<fschoep> PingunZ: nice, back for good ;) ?
<PingunZ> Hope so
<PingunZ> I err .. used vista for a month ( the shaame )
<troy_s> vista is drm hell
<fschoep> I see, did you like / dislike Vista?
<troy_s> as osx is heading that way too.
<fschoep> Does anybody have even the foggiest idea of what is happening for Feisty?
<PingunZ> I liked vista, but then I started hating it, every day a little bit more
<troy_s> nope
<PingunZ> fschoep, You still r the AiC ? :)
<troy_s> it isn't important.
<fschoep> PingunZ: I'm not
<troy_s> pretty funny thread on the sounds
<fschoep> PingunZ: I was AiC for Edgy and that's it ;)
<troy_s> "lets revert"
<troy_s> it really is sad that all of the buntu's design has no plan
<fschoep> troy_s: indeed, couldn't be bothered by it
<troy_s> (aside from perhaps edubuntu that has an implied 'education' motif)
<fschoep> true
<fschoep> kwwii: you there?
<fschoep> Since kwwii was at UDS MTV maybe he can enlighten us?
<troy_s> not a chance
<troy_s> i have spoken to mark
<troy_s> and know the larger picture.
<fschoep> You did? Elaborate
<troy_s> there isn't much
<troy_s> cliff will build the 'anchors' -- the elements targetted for edgy
<fschoep> OK
<troy_s> and the community will be welcome to attempt and duplicate the 'style' for other bits.
<fschoep> And community will fill in the blanks
<fschoep> right
<troy_s> which is pretty funny, considering that dapper was all over the board.
<fschoep> Do you know if there is going to be an AiC like person for Feisty eventually?
<troy_s> my guess is ... i doubt it.
<troy_s> oh my god
<troy_s> is that cliff in that stupid picture
<troy_s> www.ubuntu.com
<fschoep> I don't think so
<troy_s> it sure looks like him
<troy_s> and it would explain where the rather banal photos come from
<fschoep> Well, those Asian people tend to look the same more often than not (nofi) :)
<PingunZ> nice one fschoep :)
<troy_s> eek
<troy_s> lord...
<fschoep> Putting them side by side I can see similarities but I think they're different persons.
<troy_s> i don't have the spacejunkdesigns site handy
<troy_s> i just remember the hair.
<troy_s> lol
<fschoep> ;)
<troy_s> i managed to get e17 to build
<troy_s> _wow_
<fschoep> Impressive?
<troy_s> have you seen it?
<PingunZ> yes
<fschoep> Yes, but a year ago
<troy_s> the default theme is rather overdone, but
<PingunZ> I like xfce and gnome that's it :)
<troy_s> the foundation that is there is way ahead of the times.
<troy_s> little details.
<fschoep> It's pretty amazing what rasterman (that's him, right) has done
<troy_s> well the fact that none of it relies on gl is pretty important
<troy_s> until the cards pull their heads out of their collective asses and
<troy_s> open the docs up (possibly happening with the AMD aquisition)
<fschoep> Indeed, and even without GL it works smooth
<troy_s> yes...
<troy_s> very nice tweaks that would be very nice if undertoned
<PingunZ> Hmm troy_s is there a way to get beryl + e17 ?
<troy_s> animated window borders, animated backgrounds (had that for quite a while of course), animated panels.
<troy_s> i suspect so
<troy_s> but the problem is that it is _two_ projects
<troy_s> so don't expect anything more than a 'bad suit'
<troy_s> a good jacket plus a good pants from two different wardrobes does not make for a good suit. ;)
<fschoep> +1
<troy_s> that's assuming they are good too...
<troy_s> which we throw the benefit of a doubt to.
<fschoep> And he's off
<fschoep> Which brings me to the point of meeting up - are there specific things you want to talk about?
<troy_s> not exactly
<kwwii> hi
<kwwii> oops, missed frank
<troy_s> andreasn
<andreasn> hi there troy_s
<troy_s> are you working on the icon for seahorse?
<andreasn> not for the moment, gave it a try a couple of weeks back but got stuck :/
<troy_s> is there an easy way to find out
<troy_s> who is working on what?
<troy_s> or what icons need addressing and what work has been contributed up to that point?
<andreasn> to seahorse?
<troy_s> no for tango
<andreasn> we have  a little list with applications that needs icons here http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Fridays
<troy_s> yes i saw that
<andreasn> and if you see a application having a fuzzy icon or one that don't apply to the guidelines you can just fix it
<troy_s> ahh.
<andreasn> I'll upload my work on the seahorse icon in a moment
<andreasn> http://ramnet.se/~nisse/diverse/temp/seahorse.svg
<troy_s> that would be nice
<andreasn> http://ramnet.se/~nisse/diverse/temp/seahorse2.svg
* andreasn adds the regular note to not view the buggers in ff, but in inkscape ;)
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> how does the newer icon naming utility work?
<andreasn> I'm not sure actually, I haven't used it in a while
<andreasn> currently using gnome-icon-te
<andreasn> theme that came with edgy stable
<andreasn> better try compiling it though, to spot missing stuff easier :)
<troy_s> basically it takes the standard naming scheme and maps the icons to it for viewing?
<troy_s> am i correct in that?
<andreasn> yes
<andreasn> it creates links for old weird names to the new names
<troy_s> so if i ran it, and had say, the tango cvs in a dir, i would be able to point it to that dir and it would map them accordingly?
<andreasn> hm, I'm not sure, I haven't tried that
<troy_s> hrm...
<andreasn> any luck?
<troy_s> what is the name of the script
<troy_s> i can't seem to find it
<troy_s> i used the ubuntu repos
<andreasn> icon-naming-utils I think
<troy_s> yes that's the repo name
<troy_s> but the script itself?
<andreasn> hm, I always used to compile it
<andreasn> from svn
<andreasn> that usually did the tricl
<troy_s> icon-name-mapping ;)
<troy_s> grr
<troy_s> new svn of inkscape doesn't want to build
<andreasn> mine neither
<andreasn> trying to solve it in #inkscape
<troy_s> where is yours bombing out.
<andreasn> what did you run into?
<troy_s> error
<andreasn> http://pastebin.com/829210
<troy_s> waiting for pastebin.com
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-21
<lapo> yo
<andreasn> troy_s: ping
<coz_> mornign all
<coz_> good morning again
<kwwii> moin coz_
<kwwii> off to pic up the little woman...bbl
<coz_> kwwii, hello ,
<coz_> ok
<coz_> out of curiosity, is there a set time/dates for irc chat with you guys here?
<kwwii> re
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-22
<coz_> Ok here is my latest... foun dphoto of african mask.. liked it made backgroun dimage but it  is in high resolution 5 mets approx
<coz_> http://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4077&cat=5
<PseudoPlacebo> /join #make
<PseudoPlacebo> Woopsy daisy.
<highvoltage> hi! may I ask a usplash question here?
<sittisal> highvoltage, ask...
<highvoltage> ok, I have a custom usplash screen, but when I boot up, I just get a blank screen.
<highvoltage> I also see a message that says that no themes could be found for 1024x768, if I switch to VT1
<highvoltage> but my resolution, afaik, is 640x480.
<highvoltage> if I switch the resolutions up to something like vga=773 or vga=791, then I do get a usplash image, but not mine, but a test pattern kind of screen.
<highvoltage> any ideas?
<PingunZ> Seveas, Is there somekind of guide for customizing the usplash ?
<PingunZ> I want to edit the current's usplash logo and throbber
<highvoltage> PingunZ: there's a guide on the wiki, but it isn't working for me :-/
<lapo> hi
<highvoltage> hi lapo
<highvoltage> Seveas: does the howto on the wiki still apply to usplash in edgy (the usplash customization howto)
<troy_s> andreasn?
<andreasn> troy_s: hey there
<troy_s> highvoltage: No, the guide on the wiki was for the original usplash.
<troy_s> only here for a second andreasn, i just noticed you paged me yesterday.
<andreasn> nothing important really
<troy_s> lol okie.
<troy_s> how are things at your end?
<andreasn> I'm here for the rest of the afternoon
<andreasn> but will be off tonight
<troy_s> 13407 of inkscape in the repos -- i doubt it builds though.
<troy_s> erm in svn i meant.
<andreasn> I got...hm, what was it
<andreasn> 13378
<andreasn> to build
<troy_s> freetype include header is still probably needed to build it.
<troy_s> yep
<troy_s> somewhere around there.
<troy_s> okie... out.
<highvoltage> troy_s: is there a howto for the new usplash somewhere?
<PingunZ> same question here :)
<PingunZ> highvoltage, When it came out there was some info in the README ..
<PingunZ> but .. it's not really clear
<Seveas> highvoltage, the howto is in the usplash-dev package, /usr/share/doc somewhere
<highvoltage> Seveas: aaah!! thank you!
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-24
<nysosym> hi all
<kwwii> howdy
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-25
<PingunZ> troy_s, you there ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-26
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+tc]  by ChanServ
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* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:Seveas] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!
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<troy_s> Pingunz you were looking for me?
<effraie> troy_s: hello
<effraie> can access the private interface of ubuntu-art mailing list?
<PingunZ> troy_s, ping
<troy_s> greets guys
<effraie> s/can/can you
<troy_s> private interface?  in what respect?
<effraie> troy_s: sorry for the lag
<effraie> i'm moderator for the ubuntu-art list
<troy_s> i know that :)
<effraie> but i can't change my email
<troy_s> eek
<effraie> and that mail server is often down
<effraie> so i want change my moderator'adress, but i cant do it myself
<PingunZ> effraie, I'm one too :)
<PingunZ> Could you perhaps tell me how I can stop being one ? :D
<PingunZ> Cause it's spamming me :)
<effraie>  you need to contact the administrator (i think franck shoep can do that)
<PingunZ> ok
<troy_s> frank has no abilities now i believe
<effraie> erf..
<effraie> do you you know who has?
<effraie> have
<troy_s> no... try emailing him
* effraie need to perfect his english
<PingunZ> we could ask Mark ? :p
<sonzoo> /exit
<ali__>  /join #ubuntu-classroom
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-19
<Cimi> hi troy_s kwwii
<troy_s> Cimi: Greets friend.  How are you?
<Cimi> very fine thx ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Floral grunge!
<troy_s> TheSheep: And Xubuntu is nasty in Feisty.  It is what happens when Web2.0 smashes into overused, outdated, and nasty.
<TheSheep> troy_s: at least it's clean
<TheSheep> troy_s: I mean the quality, not the message
<troy_s> TheSheep: Gah.  So are the operating rooms where they used to perform lobotomy operations on mentally challenged people.
<troy_s> TheSheep: There is a fine line between clean and monotonous / sterile.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Well maybe it isn't that fine.  There is a line there somewhere.
<TheSheep> troy_s: lobotomies were performed everywhere, at homes and at schools, the guy had a 'lobotomobile' and was touring
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's what was so revolutionary, a non-invasive brain surgery
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> TheSheep: Clearly you require some if you are grooving on the 'i just can't stop with the wet floors out of that whitesnake video'
<TheSheep> not to nitPICK
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: what have you been up to?
<TheSheep> troy_s: snafu
<Cimi> are there some news from the artwork team?
<TheSheep> troy_s: mostyly adding animated rotating price tags on some web pages
<TheSheep> troy_s: I still feel dirty
<troy_s> Cimi: I wouldn't expect any, no.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Nice.
<TheSheep> http://wakacjeznami.pl  ugh!
<TheSheep> the customer is always right
<TheSheep> troy_s: any progrss with UbunÂ²?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Funky font.  Well I have had a bundle of bits on my page, so no.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I have found some salvation in AWN however.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It gets me one step closer to a mainstream acceptable desktop.
<TheSheep> avant?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yes... it has come a long long way.  It is a tad on the OSX side, but to be honest, it now has the functionality required to get rid of those ass nasty gnome panels and save space etc.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ah, you're a mac person, I forgot :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not at all.
<troy_s> TheSheep: But the default Gnome panels are utter ass.
<troy_s> TheSheep: And worse, the default installation hogs up too much space (do we really need two panels in upstream?  C'mon...)
<troy_s> TheSheep: It also helps to eliminate complexity for a newer user by limiting the amount of information presented.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm concerned if the right information is being pruned
<troy_s> TheSheep: ?
<TheSheep> troy_s: you remove the labels, and leave the icons
<troy_s> TheSheep: The labels are there on hover.
<TheSheep> troy_s: icons are ambigious and don't mean much until you learn them
<troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely.  And worse, the Tango ones are nasty.
<TheSheep> troy_s: on hover == effectively hidden
<troy_s> TheSheep: But on the upside, AWN aims at the 48 pixel size, so the icons can look at least as good as the Firefox default icon for example.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I recall someone on this channel claimed that icons should be simple symbols and not small works of art, but I forgot who it was :P
<troy_s> TheSheep: I believe he was referring to glyphs at the 22 point level.
<TheSheep> troy_s: what about consistency?
<troy_s> TheSheep: That was in reference to that idiodic 'let's make all the 22 pixels multicoloured'
<troy_s> TheSheep: Consistency can be had with style, palette, or combination.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Shape (in the case of the Firefox / Thunderbird pairing for example)
<TheSheep> troy_s: wouldn't it be cool if you could identify the icon on your panel because it is the same as an icon next to that entry in the menu?
<TheSheep> there are only so many distinct shapes, and vary the style too much and you get a mad fruit salad
<troy_s> TheSheep: I suppose all you have to really link icons in terms of consistency is talent.
<troy_s> TheSheep: And in the end, I am not exactly certain that icons need to be too consistent if they are of a sufficient quality.  By 'icons' I am referring to application icons.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ok, so for the sake of aestetics you introduce into the system a requirement that the icons must be done by talented people, otherwise they become unusable
<troy_s> TheSheep: I hate that word.  Unusable.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I was learned that one should design systems so that it's easy to meet the design goals with them, for example usability
<TheSheep> troy_s: I suppose usability is even worse
<troy_s> TheSheep: That word crops up time and time again, and I will be _damned_ if it isn't rooted in an implied audience.  Of course, most folks just wag that around above their heads without considering that the implied audience is a group.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's almost as a nasty generalization as 'aestetic'
<troy_s> TheSheep: Acetic or aesthetic :)
<TheSheep> sorry
<TheSheep> aesthetic
<troy_s> TheSheep: Aesthetics are easy because only the foolish create harsh blanket statements.
<TheSheep> not ascetic ;)
<TheSheep> troy_s: same with usability
<TheSheep> troy_s: but they don't teach it in school
<troy_s> TheSheep: Usability is about equivalent to aesthetics, only people in Free Software land like to think that usability has certain 'constants' above and beyond general mechanical things (like Fitz law garbage)
<troy_s> TheSheep: It's ultimately a ridiculous pursuit.  Audience governs _all_.
<TheSheep> speed is easy to measure, so they often assume that qucik=easy to use
<TheSheep> quick
<troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely.  Not to mention that does Fitz law apply to say, a desktop?  Is it a video game?  What about mobility impaired folks?
<TheSheep> troy_s: Fitz law applies to controlling any 'pointer'
<troy_s> TheSheep: Its just such utter rubbish and everyone is lost in this world of 'well they did a study it _must_ be truth' as opposed to looking at the audience and context of studies.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It isn't a video game.
<troy_s> TheSheep:  Christ... that leads down the road where the 22" monitor might as well be the same scaled presentation as on an iPhone.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it applies to pointing with your finger too
<troy_s> TheSheep: Super duper.  Is it relevant?
<TheSheep> troy_s: I thinK I don't follow you
<troy_s> TheSheep: Even better, if you look at that hilarious Google video done by a prof on 'aesthetics' they found that their (albeit limited) survey found that people like things in the center of the frame
<TheSheep> troy_s: please assume for a moment that you're talking to somenone conditioned through the years to "believe" in Fitz law
<troy_s> TheSheep: Which more or less ignores almost all of the developments of the Ren.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Is it relevant.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Does fitz law apply to desktop usage?  Is it a race?
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's not only about sped, although that's what they measured
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's also about concentration required
<troy_s> TheSheep:  Still not relevant.  Who cares.
<troy_s> TheSheep: We aren't driving a car _and_ using our desktops.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I like when I don't have to focus on clicking and can think about where I want that line, for example
<troy_s> TheSheep: I am not questioning the validity of the research, but rather the application of it to a desktop environment.
<TheSheep> troy_s: people are not "just using computers", they use computers to do something, computers are secondary here and shouldn't get in the way
<TheSheep> troy_s: even if they get in the way in a beautiful way
<troy_s> TheSheep: Its learning.  How small are those window decorations.  Fitz law doesn't take into account that motor acuity evolves with usage.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I can say "ah, that's pretty" once or twice, but the third time I just bite a head off a hamster
<troy_s> TheSheep: Drop a mouse into someone's hand from say, 1979, and see how they do.
<TheSheep> sure, I've read the early adoption reports, people were holding it in hand and moving in the air, and later they learned to move the ball with their fingers
<troy_s> LOL
<TheSheep> honest
<TheSheep> it was tested on a 'point and click' adventure game on Aplle Lisa
<troy_s> TheSheep: I just don't find it relevant.  At all.  Of course you can always get to a DPI issue with like 'GRAB THE DAMN WINDOW BORDER' issue, but again, it is rooted in audience.
<TheSheep> troy_s: people are not *that* flexible, and you must design for the lowest common denominator
<troy_s> TheSheep: I disagree 100%
<TheSheep> troy_s: at least lowest that still makes sense
<troy_s> TheSheep: That is _exactly_ what got Hollywood into the mess it is in now.  lol.
<troy_s> TheSheep: You should just design for your audience.  Period.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Those blanket superlatives end up pleasing NO one.
<TheSheep> troy_s: they don't use a computer to watch your design, really
<troy_s> TheSheep: Sure... tell that to Apple's surging market share.
<TheSheep> about 3% around here
<TheSheep> surging
<TheSheep> it only shows what difference can marketdroids make
<troy_s> TheSheep: People _do_ use aesthetically pleasing design.  In fact, there is what is known the 'aesthetic usability factor' where folks actually THINK something is easier if it abides by their aesthetics.
<TheSheep> troy_s: yeah, I've read Donald Norman
<troy_s> TheSheep: The bottom line, audience :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Otherwise we do the aesop -- which appears where we are at now.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Try to please everyone ...
<TheSheep> troy_s: not everyone, artsy people are out of our target ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: People with any aesthetic apparently are right now.
<TheSheep> they already love their macs and won't change their mind anyways
<troy_s> TheSheep: Works great if you are blind... erm... not even that really.
<TheSheep> troy_s: if there is a choice, I choose the one that pleases me more, but it shouldn't be at the cost of suffering trough some silly stripped down interface
<troy_s> TheSheep: More +1 to audience as "stripped down" implies a very particular one.
<TheSheep> troy_s: in other words, there are some features of the interface that I consider vital for comfortable use, and no matter how good it looks without them, I won't give them up
<troy_s> TheSheep: I believe the flexibility of a good system provides that.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm refering to awm now :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.  Seriously though, have you tried it lately?
<TheSheep> troy_s: lately, no, about 6 months ago
<TheSheep> troy_s: I can surprise you, my desktop layout is very similar to it
<troy_s> It is pretty damn solid.  Having tried it on several folks in their 50s and 60s I'd say that it certainly helps in that demo from the limited five people.
<troy_s> I'd also give it a plus one on appearance.
<TheSheep> troy_s: there are some things however that I miss and I can't give them up
<TheSheep> http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/shot.png <-- my desktop, btw, if it helps ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: ?  You are aware that the rewrite now has a highly extensible interface element.
<TheSheep> troy_s: how is extensibility relevant for an end user?
<troy_s> TheSheep: What were you looking for in functionality out of it?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Rather.  It is easy to develop for now and as such, things like a power button etc applets have all happened.
<TheSheep> troy_s: workspaces, load gauge, clock
<troy_s> TheSheep: Done done and done.
<troy_s> Which is my point.
 * TheSheep downloads awm
<troy_s> awn
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> it is hosted at Launchpad now.
<troy_s> You will also want the awn-extras
<TheSheep> yesh
<TheSheep> yeah
<troy_s> which has the plugins (dbus related) and the applets (load/switcher/etc)
<TheSheep> note how flexibilitty doesn't help here -- you need to be "good enough" with the default settings
<troy_s> TheSheep: Matter of time
<troy_s> TheSheep: It does help that it exists and lets you use it.  Eventually one can assume that certain 'applets' get integrated into the mainline :)
<TheSheep> you are not sure that 'good enough' settings can be achieved given the constraints :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't know what you are getting at.  Right now, AWN with attention could easily deliver a top shelf experience for most users.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It just takes exposure and fixing the bugs (as with anything really)
<TheSheep> I need to try it :)
<TheSheep> that note was a general one, not about awn in particular
<troy_s> TheSheep: It's damn good.
<TheSheep> I hope it's worth installing all those gnome libs :/
<TheSheep> if it isntalls neutilus, then I give up :(
<TheSheep> nautilus
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yeah that part sucks.
<troy_s> TheSheep: The browser is pretty good...
<TheSheep> troy_s: I prefer Thunar
<troy_s> TheSheep: I think it uses its own internal thing for the click popup then you can open up your browser
<troy_s> TheSheep: Got it yet?
<TheSheep> nope, still in dependency hell :3
<TheSheep> but I think I see the light
<troy_s> Lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: You won't regret it... although it needs to have some bugs reported against it... I'm filing a few.
<TheSheep> ok, compiling
<troy_s> TheSheep: I will note that on amd64 when set to 3D slab it seems to bug out.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Should be a bug report somewhere.  Standard 2D view (ala Enlightenment) works great.
<TheSheep> Key: /apps/avant-window-navigator/app/active_png isn't set.
<TheSheep> Restarting AWN usually solves this issue
<troy_s> TheSheep: ?
<TheSheep> and no, restarting doesn't solve it
<troy_s> TheSheep: Active is an option.  You pulled trunk yes?
<TheSheep> yes
<TheSheep> https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/0.2-stable-testing
<troy_s> No
<troy_s> That isn't trunk
<TheSheep> but it has 'stable' in it, should work ;)
<TheSheep> nah, probably the whole thing requires gnome environment to run
<troy_s> https://code.launchpad.net/~awn-core/awn/trunk
<troy_s> They are working on the agnostic version too.
<troy_s> I don't know how far along it is.
<TheSheep> it's good to use the underying system mechanisms, but windwos regitsry re-done in xml is just silly :P
<TheSheep> troy_s: same result
<troy_s> TheSheep: What is the problem:
<troy_s> TheSheep: Try trunk... uninstall that and go with trunk.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Trunk is that plus.
<TheSheep> I'm trying trunk
<troy_s> TheSheep: Make sure to do a make uninstall.
<troy_s> TheSheep: On the old dir.
<TheSheep> I'm sure :)
<TheSheep> this is a gconf error
<troy_s> TheSheep: Much of the interface to fix things is still laying in Gconf details.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Gconf-editor will help if you bust something.
<TheSheep> ah, I was running a wrong binary
<TheSheep> it's the navigator I want, not the manager
<troy_s> oh of course :)
<troy_s> trunk won't do you wrong.
<troy_s> at least it is darn stable for this guy thus far.
<TheSheep> but it breaks my existing panel and doesn't allow me to switch workspaces
<troy_s> (aside from those 'can't remove applets that are running' gconf work arounds.)
<troy_s> TheSheep: The workspace switcher is in awn-extras
<troy_s> TheSheep: They have isolated the panel functionality from the plugins.
<TheSheep> I have keybindings for that
<TheSheep> but it just switches back
<TheSheep> not to mention it only displays on one workspace
<TheSheep> I think I will wait until they make it do the basic things
<nothlit> the png is just missing afaik, gconf is not windows registry, its a backend and a nice lib with a consistent interface that supports live configuration changes
<TheSheep> nothlit: what's in a name?
<troy_s> TheSheep: It does.
<troy_s> TheSheep: You can config it to be on multiple spaces too now I believe.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Right click and pref it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: can I configure it to not prevent switching workspaces in the first place?
<nothlit> TheSheep: its not obfuscated nor does it have the entire system stored in it
<troy_s> TheSheep: Unaware of the behave
<troy_s> TheSheep: What is happening?
<troy_s> TheSheep: And why aren't you just using a screen edge or something?
<TheSheep> troy_s: I swithc to a different workspace, either using xfwm4's key shortcut or xfce4-panel's pager, and this little nasty thing immediately switches back to where it sits
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hrm... ok.  Report a bug.  If you disable the applet does it do that still?
<TheSheep> troy_s: I can trick it by switching and immediately bringing up a context menu, then its switch fails
<TheSheep> troy_s: what applet?
<troy_s> TheSheep: https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/desktop-agnostic
<TheSheep> troy_s: I don't have any applets enabled in it
<nothlit> troy_s: affinity is also a nice menu/panel applet/search thingy
<TheSheep> troy_s: fun! :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Talking to malept right now
<troy_s> TheSheep: He says it is 'feature complete'
<TheSheep> "only sometimes explodes in your face" :D
<TheSheep> but I know how it is with development
<TheSheep> it takes years to make it sturdy
<TheSheep> what's "gio" and where do I get it?
<troy_s> gio?
<TheSheep> ../libawn/awn-vfs.h:34:30: error: gio/gfilemonitor.h: No such file or directory
<TheSheep> ah, I see I can replace it with thunar-vfs
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would give desktop agnostic a try... see how it works.
<troy_s> TheSheep: He hasn't started in on plugins etc.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm trying :)
<TheSheep> it insists on having that gio thing :/
<troy_s> TheSheep: malept is in awn
<troy_s> TheSheep: he wrote it.
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> hi
<steph_> hi
<andreasn> kwwii: nice background selections for kde4
<kwwii> andreasn: thanks..it was a lot of work to make that decision
<kwwii> and, as expected, there are a lot of people complaining
<kwwii> funny enough, we got complaints from old-school people wanting the ugly old patterns back
<andreasn> there are always people complaining, as long as you felt you did a good job that you are pride of
<andreasn> err...proud
<_MMA_> Can I have a link?
<andreasn> http://blog.ruphy.org/?p=23
<_MMA_> andreasn: Thanx. Nice pics kwwii.
 * _MMA_ will be tinkering with this today thanx to Luis. http://gimparoo.wordpress.com/2007/02/15/fake-tilt-shift
<thorwil> hmm
<thorwil> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mmueller/face-browser-1.png
<TheSheep> thorwil: what if you have more than 9 users?
<TheSheep> thorwil: nice shadows
<thorwil> TheSheep: not mine. but the gid could grow several ways. but primes would be less nice
<TheSheep> thorwil: that's an idea, find a factorization and build the grid on it :D
<TheSheep> thorwil: you could maybe factor n+1 if it's prime, and center the last column/row
<thorwil> TheSheep: i would rather shift every 2nd row. to have equal distance between center points in all cases
<TheSheep> hex
<thorwil> 7 nodes / 6 triangles making one hexagon
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-20
<Riyonuk> Anyone intrested in helping on a school website?
<troy_s> Riyonuk: How much work?
<Riyonuk> Half and Half? Just design
<Riyonuk> trying to redesign chs.comfort.txed.net
<troy_s> can you send me an email Riyonuk ?
<Riyonuk> sure
<troy_s> no guarantees as I am hideously busy
<Riyonuk> do you have msn?
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> aphorism at telus dot net or troy dot sobotka at gmail dot com for gmail
<troy_s> gtalk
<Riyonuk>  is not a valid passport account.
<Riyonuk> hm
<Riyonuk> try adding me, riyonuk@gmail.com
<Cimi> kwwii, you'll be surprised when you'll have the occasion to see the next murrine release
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://markbernstein.org/NeoVictorian.html
<lapo> hi
<troy_s> TheSheep: +1. Especially in relation to his 'arts and crafts' analogy.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I knew you'll like it :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is soooo spot on the money really.  But we have discussed that ad nausem
<troy_s> s/nausem/nauseam
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm seeing more and more people talk about that
<TheSheep> troy_s: and about 'situated software'
<troy_s> TheSheep: That is positive, perhaps we will get out of the 'my computer your computer' rut that we have chatted about.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I think a cultural change is needed, but it's started
<kwwii> nothlit, lassegul: feel like pinging natthew nuzum about the state of the art.ubuntu.com site?
<nothlit> kwwii: sure, i can ask him whats going on
<nothlit> you should /invite newz2000 btw :P
<nothlit> kwwii: its been working for a week but under code review
<nothlit> canonical audits any extra code that runs on the community servers
<kwwii> nothlit: yeah, the biggest issue at this point is to get the login stuff going
<kwwii> ie logging in via your launchpad account
<kwwii> I see you guys as the ones running this stuff (as I cannot be everywhere all the time and you've done a great job so far)
<kwwii> speak of the devil :-)
<newz2000> that's never happened before
<newz2000> voodoo?
<newz2000> :-D
<kwwii> I pwn you
<kwwii> well, I wish I did
<newz2000> what's happening?
<kwwii> just wanted to check up on the status of art.ubuntu.com
<newz2000> stuck in code review. :-(
<kwwii> talking to nothlit and lassegul about working on this stuff
<kwwii> hehe, sounds like an ongoing process, how long does it usually take?
<newz2000> I've never had to submit such a large piece of code for review before, and now that kees is on dendrobates team, he's quite busy.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I will just start spamming kees
<kwwii> no worries
<kwwii> good that we get it reviewed first
<newz2000> actually, its dendrobates
<kwwii> ouch, I'll hit him up with the st louis talk and see if I can awake any hometown feelings
<kwwii> get him on my good side first
<kwwii> nothlit, lassegul: another important thing that we could get done in the meantime is feeding the FAQ that I started
<kwwii> seems that lassegul is out anyway so I'll just yell at nothlit for the time being ;-)
<nothlit> lol, do you have a link for your faq starter?
<nothlit> sorry, just trying to close some tabs, got 97 open trying to reduce before i establish a wiki workspace
<newz2000> I've been using this dark caramel theme for a while now... it [has the potential to be] so handsome, but it will be a lot of work switching to a dark theme.
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/FAQ
<kwwii> all those amazing entries made me tired :p
<newz2000> wow, that is a comprehensive faq
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> hey, I just added one more entry
<newz2000> we need a FAtQ now, a list of frequent answers to questions (though the questions may not be so frequent)
<kwwii> I had three people ask me in one day how to unsubscribe, thought it would be a good time to start one
<newz2000> The first to entries would be 1: no.  2: yes.
<newz2000> 3: Ask Troy
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> very nice
<newz2000> 4: Ask Troy and tell him you want the long answer
<newz2000> ;-)
<newz2000> can we include artwork that is free for non-commercial use? cc-nc-by-sa or whatever it is
<newz2000> we can't, iirc
<kwwii> hrm, are any of the derivs for commercial use?
<kwwii> I would guess that a few are and that would limit us a bit
<kwwii> for now it probably is not a problem but we need to make it very clear what parts are non-free
<nothlit> newz2000: a guide: http://www.linux.com/feature/119212 :)
<nothlit> but as long as they're not integrated with the product there shouldn't be as much of a problem unless ubuntu views it as nonfree
<kwwii> nothlit: right
<newz2000> what a mess
<nothlit> cc is mix and match, as long as there is no NC then it can be for commercial use
<kwwii> it gets quite confusing
<kwwii> oh man, now I am supposed to know french again
<kwwii> I said I could order dinner in french, not that I understand it well
<nothlit> well, you should try your best, but that doesn't mean you have to learn french, don't sweat it
<nothlit> any updates on the community theme or conceptual work on the default?
<kwwii> well, the stuff on the mailing list has been amazing
<kwwii> and I have been working on a few things as well
<kwwii> I am making a presentation to show mark on dec 5th, after that we will have the definite art direction for the next release and to some extent those beyond that
<kwwii> hrm, first time I have ever gotten spam for  "Women's Intimacy Enhancer Cream"
<kwwii> and with that, good night
<nothlit> cool, cyas
<kwwii> cya tomorrow
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-21
<troy_s> kwwii: Ping
<troy_s> kwwii: Any chances of shaking loose some upstream guys to bloody well give us an anchor point in GDM or like areas that would allow for integrating a widescreen / standard scaling technique?
<troy_s> kwwii: The gist of the idea being that if we had an anchor point that was the same in both standard and widescreen, we could at least be certain things would display the same.
<troy_s> Absolute center would probably be a useful origin point?
<karma-ferit> are we going with the tango style this time around?
<kwwii> andreasn: ping?
<andreasn> kwwii: pong
<kwwii> andreasn: I played with some ideas for the panel icons... http://sinecera.de/panel_test.png and http://sinecera.de/panel_icons.png
<karma-ferit> that looks industrial
<kwwii> karma-ferit: how so? does it feel too un-natural to you?
<kwwii> karma-ferit: I was trying to make it look like the icons are etched into the panel
<karma-ferit> needs to be softened
<karma-ferit> its like hard metal
<andreasn> ah, kind of embossed
<andreasn> that's nice
<andreasn> I was really worried how things would look if say, someone changed background on the panel
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, that is the biggest problem with that approach
<andreasn> kwwii: I chatted a bit to Vincent Untz this weekend on how to solve it, if we should make it a special theme or make a theme with those icons in it
<kwwii> andreasn: cool, what came out of that discussion?
<andreasn> he suggested we should try to fight the battle upstream first and have all applications that put stuff in the notification area have those icons monochrome
<karma-ferit> basically it just doesn't feel, human or easy flowing
<andreasn> that way application developers can fix that for us
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, that is probably the best way to start off
<kwwii> karma-ferit: we might very well have to go with a simpler look due to the problem with changing the panel color that andreasn mentioned
<karma-ferit> well monochrome might work better
<kwwii> exactly
<kwwii> although which color do you choose? black or white?
<kwwii> seems like you would almost need some code to handle that no matter what you do
<karma-ferit> plus colours are distracting, colours should be for warnings or things users should notice
<andreasn> kwwii: scott told me he was going to lock you, mark and a few others and don't let you out till you had all the basic colors set in stone :)
<andreasn> kwwii: I find that a very interesting approach :)
<kwwii> andreasn: yepp, on dec 5th we will fight it out ;-)
<kwwii> I am already getting nervous
<andreasn> good luck
<kwwii> thanks, I will need it
<andreasn> karma-ferit: ah, yeah, so updates would have colors, while networkmanager wouldn't?
<karma-ferit> unless theres a error in the connection
<andreasn> right
<andreasn> I guess critical battery power is also something that would be given color
<karma-ferit> that it would
<andreasn> I'll see if I can come up with some test mockups for this as well
<kwwii> until now, my idea was to only use colors when certain states are reached and/or when you are currently changing something
<karma-ferit> a user can look up notice that its in monochrome and not worry when its red plug it in
<kwwii> exactly
<andreasn> kwwii: ah, so the sound level would be colored if you change it?
<karma-ferit> well sound would be nice if it changed colour when the users adjusts the sound then fades back into monochrome, thus giving the user feedback
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, but only when you are actually pressing the button or sliding the slider
<kwwii> karma-ferit: exactly
<andreasn> ah, cool
<karma-ferit> so colour should be for feedback and warnings
<kwwii> karma-ferit: exactly :-)
<karma-ferit> i wonder if the tango spec can be changed for panel icons
<andreasn> it probably could, yeah
<karma-ferit> so you have the 16x16 to scalable then the panel icons
<andreasn> so, yeah, it's a battle worth fight upstream
<andreasn> time for lunch, later!
<kwwii> andreasn: enjoy your lunch
<karma-ferit> kwwii: have you got any other mockups?
<elkbuntu> kwwii, im with karma-ferit on the colours... i think the etching could work but on those background colours and the darkness make it really synthetic
<andreasn> do you have any good alternatives?
<elkbuntu> i like the look alot... but the dark grey is really un-ubuntu
<karma-ferit> it needs to be welcoming
<andreasn> I guess it depends a lot on what other colors you use in combination with it
<elkbuntu> the etching bit though, i really like. if it were on a more earthy colour it'd ... erm.. rock
<karma-ferit> personally i would round out the icons a bit
<karma-ferit> so they don't seem so hard/industrial
<elkbuntu> i'd love to see the slab-like background around icons/widgety things done away with altogether and just have a nice clean panel
<elkbuntu> although that's the web designer in me having residual hatred for how people colour form elements in web pages so there's the circle and then add in radio buttons which have the horrific out-of-place slab of colour around them
<elkbuntu> s/so there's the circle//
<kwwii> karma-ferit: yepp, but nothing finished yet
<kwwii> I think that the most important thing to have in mind when viewing the artwork is that we purposely want to change things
<karma-ferit> http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panelnet1in0.png kinda rounded like this
<karma-ferit> course this is just rough, enough to get an idea across
<kwwii> I get the point though...good idea
<andreasn> kwwii: congrats on RC1 btw
<nysosym> rc1 of what?
<nysosym> kde?
<andreasn> yes, kde4
<nysosym> Well, i love the new wallpapers, hope to see something like that in ubunut too :D
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, good to see that they finally pushed it out :-)
<kwwii> nysosym: I would like to see something like that for ubuntu as well..but due to cd size we probably cannot include so many pics
<nysosym> well, we should kick out ekiga instead of good wallpapers ^^
<kwwii> in any case we can make an installable package
<andreasn> nysosym: :)
 * nysosym loads the kde 4 rc1 live cd :D
<andreasn> I guess part of it could be solved with the rss-feed thing for the background capplet (if we can fix that for 2.22)
<nysosym> get wallpapers with rss? O.o
<andreasn> yeah, arc has been planning on doing that. hold on, I'll see if I can find some mockups
<andreasn> http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/designs/background-channels/
<andreasn> so ideally you could subscribe to flickr streams and stuff like that
<nysosym> wow, very good idea :)
<andreasn> it could be neat, yeah
<andreasn> speaking of good ideas: http://www.songza.com/
<andreasn> kwwii: it's from aza and the other humanized dudes at UDS
<kwwii> hehe, cool
<nysosym> how nice is that O.o
<kwwii> very nice
<nysosym> sure :)
<nysosym> andreasn: thx for sharing the link :)
<nothlit> webilder does webshots and flickr tag cycling already
<nysosym> re
<nysosym> wow kde 4 looks but
<nysosym> but needs also a lo of work
<nysosym> and i think the default theme has too less contrast
<nysosym> but the green color theme looks truly amazing :)
<nysosym> looks like a part of scotland :D
<nysosym> anyway keep up the good work :)
<Cimi> kwwii, any mpckup?
<Cimi> *mockup?
<kwwii> Cimi: I'll have a few different ideas together tomorrow, working on the last/best one now
<Cimi> kwwii, could you send me them in email pls?
<kwwii> Cimi: yepp, expect something either really late tonight or midday tomorrow :-)
<Cimi> kwwii, I would like to have a pre-release to see if it is possible or If I must start working on changes on the engine
<kwwii> Cimi: yeah, I think it is really important that I show you this stuff as some of it is probably crazy ideas which could never happen
<kwwii> I am trying to draw something completely different
<kwwii> but many of the things in Murrine I think could fit to some extent
<Cimi> kwwii, actually murrine can customize the gradient of the buttons trough the gtkrc ;)
<hbons> made this mockup, what do you think? :)
<hbons> http://hagen.let.rug.nl/s1547615/ubuntu/border.png
<kwwii> hbons: I am not too big on that perspective for the folders, personally
<kwwii> and the windows are a bit too rounded :-)
<hbons> kwwii: the folders are just to fill the space
<kwwii> all in all it is somewhat close to some of the ideas I have been making
<karma-ferit> my issue is that you're using the dominate colour for both the text and border
<hbons> kwwii: cool, got someting to show?:)
<hbons> karma-ferit: yeah, the border should be lighter
<kwwii> hbons: still working on it, sometime soon though
<hbons> ok
<Cimi> kwwii, email pls :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-22
<kwwii> Cimi: coming soon, I promise...even then, it is just ideas and we can bounce ideas back and forth to make the most of things
<Cimi> kwwii, could also be that I completely dislike the design so it's better to stop it now then after 6 hours of work :D
<troy_s> Cimi: Have you added anything to the Murrine engine?
<Cimi> mmm yes
<darkmatter> *burps loudly*
<Cimi> [cimi@hydra murrine]$ wc -l patch.diff
<Cimi> 3682 patch.diff
<troy_s> hbons: The empty space window is interesting.  +1 on the folder comment from kwwii -- that look is not nearly as decent as the 3/4 front that OSX had (I think they have foobared visual appeal in the sake of functionality with Leopard's new folder icons)
<Cimi> mmm
<Cimi> just 3682 lines of patches :D
<troy_s> hbons: I wonder what it would look like if you mocked up a metacity to match the empty window look.  You should try it.
<troy_s> hbons: I'd give you a plus one on the innovation though.  It is certainly an interesting take.  I wonder how it would work in practice (scrollbars would probably need to be outline of scroller and outline of buttons floating in space edge, etc.)
<troy_s> Cimi: Any particulars as to what you have added in?
<darkmatter> Cimi: only 3682 limes.. pfft. ;)
<darkmatter> *lines
<Cimi> :)
<troy_s> Cimi: ?
<hbons> troy_s thanks for te tips, i'll take that in mind:)
<troy_s> hbons: Not really 'tips' per se... I am quite interested to see what a floating interface might look like.
<troy_s> hbons: It really is quite innovative...
<Cimi> troy_s, nothing special that you may like (i.e. no option to remove the border)
<troy_s> Cimi: I am just curious in general.
<Cimi> troy_s, remember the idea to control the gradients trough the gtkrc?
<troy_s> Cimi: In what respect?
<troy_s> Cimi: Intensity
<troy_s> ?
<hbons> troy_s: but what do you mean by "floating"?
<Cimi> shades of the color
<Cimi> so
<Cimi> enlight
<Cimi> or endark
<Cimi> (erm, the english term)
<darkmatter> hbons: I realize its just a very basic mockup, but I'd say with something that "clean" (and following troy_s suggestion +1) try doing a mockup without buttons on the scrollbars as well.. :)
<Cimi> darkmatter, current murrine has an option to remove scrollbar steppers
<Cimi> but it's ugly and vista-ish
<darkmatter> Cimi: nice
<Cimi> but it's ugly and vista-ish
<Cimi> :D
<darkmatter> lol. depends on how its done
<hbons> darkmatter: but there are no scrollbars? (sorry i don't quite get it :D)
<troy_s> Cimi: Ugly is a relative term.  I don't see the Vista.
<darkmatter> hbons: just some in-brain visualizing :)
<troy_s> Cimi: For some, borders are dead ugly :)
<troy_s> Cimi: Forwarded by some fellow hiding behind the 'usability' clause without considering that, as always, usability rests bound to the unstated particular user.
<darkmatter> troy_s: since the industry has situational software we should add situational usability and situational design to the list too :)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Well I would at least say that it is about time that _everyone_ realize and accept the fact that it is a relative world.
<darkmatter> troy_s: agreed
<troy_s> darkmatter: Those broad sweeping laws and 'truths' are pure paper thin cutouts of foolish propositions.
<TheSheep> "all generalisations are false"
<troy_s> TheSheep: LOL.  That's terrific!
<TheSheep> yeah, GÃ¶del thought that too
<TheSheep> in your face, Hilbert!
<kwwii> Cimi: yepp, might be
<kwwii> man, I missed out on a lot...my system kinda died for a bit
<Cimi> kwwii, very well
<kwwii> firefox seems to slow things down quite a bit
<darkmatter> troy_s: aye. I'm working on a project (doing mockups at the moment) for what is basically a studio environment because I have a particular need, as well as many usability enhancements that would work wonders for me and for others who agree with "my way of doing things". not because "I'm right" but because I have a similar work methodology/design sensibility that I share with others.
<darkmatter> completely situational. my situation is "a", my solution is "b" as opposed to the whole alphabet soup methodology that is the "norm"
<Cimi> [cimi@hydra murrine]$ wc -l patch.diff
<Cimi> 3767 patch.diff
<Cimi> great :D
<Cimi> kwwii, I will sleep in front of the pc :D
<Cimi> please email!
<kwwii> :-)
<Cimi> ronf ronf
<Cimi> Zzzz
<kwwii> I could send you something now, but it is far from finished and you would only make opinions based on unfinished work
<Cimi> ok
<Cimi> let's make them
<darkmatter> troy_s: put on some shades and give a big "HELL YEAH!" for usability http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Satellites?content=70225
<darkmatter> *has an aneurysm*
<Cimi> I hope someone will ban this user
<darkmatter> "I guess my laptop is not rendering the colors like it should... or I have a serious problem with my eyes/judgement... lol" <-- I'd say the later deserves a BINGO
<_MMA_> lol.
 * _MMA_ grabs that for the new Ubuntu Studio theme.
<darkmatter> Cimi: now doesn't that make you wish you never released murrine to the public? ;)
<darkmatter> _MMA_: you would too. bastard :)
<hbons> that... color... it's... killing... me...
<Cimi> I won't release murrine 0.60 :D
<_MMA_> Yep. Just to drive people nuts.
<darkmatter> lol
<Cimi> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/70233-1.jpg
<_MMA_> Ouch. I have a pink theme for the wife but damn thats too much.
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> at least use complemwntary shades and colours.. gawd
<darkmatter> *complementary
<Cimi> probably he is blind
<darkmatter> 'scuse me while I repeatedly vote bad/refresh page/ vote bad :)
<_MMA_> lol
<darkmatter> and that my dear friend is why I voted against adding the colurs panel to the theme preferences ;)
<darkmatter> *colours
<Cimi> very bad Idea :D
<Cimi> oh no
<Cimi> I was referring to some bugreport I got in gnome bugzilla
<Cimi> someone asked to add a panel with +20 colors :D
<darkmatter> O.O
<Cimi> and another one from ubuntu mailing list
<Cimi> xl_cheese
<Cimi> asked more than 10 colors too :D
<darkmatter> haha
<Cimi> I immediatly have closed the bug :D
<hbons> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Gutsy+Default?content=66683
<hbons> heh
<Cimi> hbons, http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/67957-2.jpg
<Cimi> by xlcheese
<hbons> ouch
<darkmatter> meh. is putting users out of my misery considered antisocial?
<kwwii> two funny things, at SUSE I worked with a guy who had a pink and green theme (but was a death metal freak) turns out he was color-blind...and then I met robert collins at canonical who has a totally blue theme which just scares me, turns out he is also color blind (and therefor sees blue tones differently than most of us)
<Cimi> jimmac is blind
<Cimi> *color blind
<darkmatter> kwwii: very true. but that still doesn't mean I cant loathe and despise and poke fun at the themes :D
<kwwii> darkmatter: nope, not at all :-)
<kwwii> I knew my roommate at suse for years before I knew that he was colorblind
<kwwii> afterwards I wondered why in the hell I asked him about what he thinks looked best
<darkmatter> LOL.
<darkmatter> kwwii:one does not even need to be colourblind. we all perceive colour in our own way
<kwwii> darkmatter: to an extent, yes
<darkmatter> I for example dont see white. be it real world or at the pc. for me white is a hodge podge of almost pastel colors. almost hypnotic. it does go white occasionally. but its more like a disco ball effect
<darkmatter> not joking either
<darkmatter> which is why I have an aversion to white when I theme. I'll do "whitish" but I'll avoid white like a plague
<troy_s> <kwwii> two funny things, at SUSE I worked with a guy who had a pink and green theme (but was a death metal freak) turns out he was color-blind...and then I met robert collins at canonical who has a totally blue theme which just scares me, turns out he is also color blind (and therefor sees blue tones differently than most of us)
<troy_s> kwwii: Two of Tango's team are color blind ;)
<troy_s> kwwii: Coincidence?
<Cimi> troy_s, palette are useful to whis
<kwwii> troy_s: explains the palette to me
<troy_s> kwwii: LOL
<kwwii> sorry, not trying to be a dick
<darkmatter> troy_s:  http://tangogotowned.org?
<darkmatter> :P
<kwwii> honestly, I did not know that
<troy_s> kwwii: To be fair, the palettes in foss are weak in general.  They tend to fall on either side of the 'monochromatic/polychromatic' divide.
<troy_s> kwwii: I know for certain Lapo is.  I believe jimmac is as well.
<troy_s> kwwii: Also forgot to mention
<Cimi> yes
<troy_s> kwwii: There _is_ an interactive perspective tool in Inkscape, albeit hidden.
<Cimi> lapo and jimmac are both color blins
<Cimi> *d
<kwwii> troy_s: where?
<troy_s> kwwii: It is the beginning of the mesh warp set.
<troy_s> kwwii: IIRC under the "Filters" you can find an implementation of it.
<troy_s> kwwii: You basically take a path (again, MUST be a path)
<troy_s> kwwii: and form a perspective shape (four points)
<troy_s> kwwii: Select the two and apply.
<troy_s> kwwii: I'll quickly do up two screenshots to show it... hold on.
<kwwii> cool, love to see it
<kwwii> last night I offered 100 Euros for anyone who could implement offset/inset properly to any inkscape dev
<kwwii> they told me that it is coming once they use cairo
<kwwii> or suc
<kwwii> h
<troy_s> kwwii: Don't knock the inset offset
<troy_s> kwwii: You can do some pretty amazing things with the linked one.
<troy_s> kwwii: I put a tutorial up on my blog about it...
<troy_s> it is amazingly dynamic
<troy_s> kwwii: The dynamic is by far the most useful in terms of visuals, but the Linked is mind numbing.
<troy_s> kwwii: what bothers you about it?
<kwwii> troy_s: the problem for me is doing just a 1px offset/inset for a path
<kwwii> it messes up things most of the time
<kwwii> for complex paths it seems to work well though
<kwwii> funky, that
<troy_s> kwwii: Hrm... well there are some bugs with fonts etc... if you know the unsaid rules it is pretty reliable.
<kwwii> take a square, make it a path and then offset if a couple of pixels
<troy_s> kwwii: I know it will 'pop' certain letters if you aren't careful.
<troy_s> http://imagebin.ca/view/AnUi5F5.html
<troy_s> kwwii: Hrm... square to path seems fine here.  Odd.
<kwwii> troy_s: good point, never thought about doing it that way
<troy_s> kwwii: Anyways, that is the work towards mesh deforms.  It works fine using the interactive too, but you still need to apply the 'rules'.
<troy_s> kwwii: The first vertex is considered the lower left iirc.
<kwwii> hrm, I'll have to play with that
<kwwii> thanks
<troy_s> kwwii: Yeah, the only thing to remember is that 1) it _must_ be a path and 2) vertex creation sequence matters (first vertex of the four is lower left) 3) selection order -- first select your to-be-warped object and then select the perspective deformation shape.
<kwwii> the selection order stuff has messed me up in the past with other things
<kwwii> time for sleep here
<kwwii> troy_s: I thought you might like this: http://sinecera.de/tweaked.jpg
<kwwii> night, /me gone
<spedsta> test
<_MMA_> 1, 2, 3
<spedsta> sorry, first time irc user, wanted to test it, cause nothing much happening
<_MMA_> np
<spedsta> are there many designers involved?
<_MMA_> kwwii would be the guy to talk with.
<spedsta> im a designer, so would love to get involved, especially with a possibility of some of my work getting into a release
<spedsta> thanks
<spedsta> how to get hold of him, here ?
<_MMA_> yes
<_MMA_> Do you see a list of people in the channel?
<spedsta> ok he is  on right now then?
<spedsta> yes i do
<spedsta> on the right, kwii is on top..
<spedsta> with a green icon next to his name
<_MMA_> He's in Germany so he should be around soon.
<_MMA_> And since its 2:30am where Im at Im gone. ;)
 * _MMA_ ZzZzz...
<spedsta> ok, i see, thanks alot,
<martino> Hi
<martino> I'm Martino (Minimal perception creator)
<martino> _MMA_ ??
<lukeen> erm Cimi: you sure about the new active tab under clearlooks?
<andreasn> the old/new :)
<lukeen> haha yes. well i installed xp on virtual box recently and noticed, the tabs also look like that...
<andreasn> yes, it gives you a visual hint what tab is the active one
<andreasn> it was in clearlook 0.5, can't really remember when it was first added. http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.5_1.png
<lukeen> yeah i know, but i dont feel like its the right choice. i think we could think about something different.
<andreasn> http://www.gnome.org/start/2.12/notes/en/rnusers.html - hm, appears it was used in 2.12 already, perhaps it always had those
<andreasn> AH! simple didn't, right. http://www.gnome.org/start/2.10/notes/rnwhatsnew.html
<andreasn> see http://www.gnome.org/start/2.10/notes/figures/figure-keyboard-properties+layout.png
<lapo> hi
<andreasn> not the right choice? Is it a bad interface? what's the drawbacks of having it?
<lukeen> i just mean we could make it better and more original. i didnt want to say that its ugly or something
<andreasn> http://www.maximumpcguides.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/1vista_taskbar_properties.PNG
<andreasn> seems vista is going for the approach to make the non-selected tabs darker
<andreasn> and osx obviosly have the buttons-thingy
<lapo> speaking about the bik...ehm gtk theme? :-)
<andreasn> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/AppleScript/Reference/StudioReference/art/image_tab_mainmenu_nib.gif
<andreasn> I would say color helps, but I'm don't really have a strong opinion about the tab looks really
<andreasn> the funny things about gtk-themes is that whatever you change, you're actively fucking with the looks of every application out there
<andreasn> application/application developer
<andreasn> :)
<lukeen> :) thats true
<lapo> andreasn: what are you rockin on?
<andreasn> currently a travel expense bill :)
<lapo> eheh
<lapo> not very productive from an ubuntu user pov :-)
<andreasn> apart from that some maemo stuff and firefox3
<lapo> hos is the ff3 effort going?
<lapo> I hope to have some time to help you out during the we
<andreasn> pretty good, michael have a bunch of patches to make stuff look more "normal" and they seem happy to accept most of them
<lapo> sounds cool
<lapo> nice
<andreasn> and mike, the moz dude is very straight forward and helpful
<lapo> yay!
<lapo> cool, I wasn't sure about how important this effort was going to be for the moz guys
<lapo> looks like I was wrong, nice
<Cimi> andreasn, I like the new active gummy tabs
<karma-ferit> andreasn: in gnome, in the appearance preferences, Interface tab you have a setting for showing text under icons, is there any chance of firefox respecting this setting in the future?
<karma-ferit> currently it does icons only as its setting
<andreasn> karma-ferit: probably worth filing a bug about, a lot of gnome apps don't follow that either :)
<karma-ferit> i've noticed a few gnome apps have there own way of doing the same thing
<karma-ferit> some use the global settings some use there own
<andreasn> and you should _totally_ file bugs against those bastards, those are really clearly bugs :)
<andreasn> but yeah, I guess it would be pretty easy to do in firefox as well
<karma-ferit> because with firefox 2 i use this gnome-theme look alike then set it to look like this http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotup4.png
<karma-ferit> just like nautilus
<kwwii> isn't the "home" a bit confusing as in nautilus it really is your home whereas there it is probably a web page
<karma-ferit> well i didn't make the theme :)
<karma-ferit> i just use it because it ties in nicely with gnomes theme
<andreasn> kwwii: well, I guess we always did it like this, can't remember what the early internet explorer did, but I know netscape always used a house
<karma-ferit> also theres some nice hacker-fu and the tabs look shaded and normal compared to the firefox 2's default ones
<andreasn> kwwii: I don't think it's that confusing, but we had a similar bug against evolution calendar where "home" was the same thing as "go to today"
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, I realize that it has been like that for a long time, just wondering if there is not something better
<hbons> andreasn: should you really compare to evolution? i mean, i have to hit "Get mail" to send my mail:)
<andreasn> hbons: haha, yeah
<karma-ferit> i always thought of the home page as more of a start thing, something you look at quickly before doing your browsing
<andreasn> karma-ferit: did you ever check out firefox journal?
<karma-ferit> can't say i have
<andreasn> it kind of rocks
<andreasn> http://online-desktop.org/wiki/Firefox_Journal
<andreasn> you need firefox3 though
<karma-ferit> got FF3 :)
<andreasn> http://online-desktop.org/wiki/Firefox_Journal_XPI
<andreasn> kwwii: I would say both take you to your home/start place, but yeah, it's a interesting issue
<karma-ferit> so when is the next lot of icons for FF3 hitting the nightlies?
<andreasn> you have to ask montreal about that, but I think he have a patch with a whole batch of them
<karma-ferit> sweet :)
<Cimi> andreasn, what are your opinions on new clearlooks tabs?
<kwwii> hrm, anyone know how to bump up the date of the next meeting in the wiki?
<Cimi> andreasn, ?
<andreasn> Cimi: I'm not sure I saw the latest version, screenshot?
<Cimi> http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5971/screenshot1hz1.png
<lapo> Cimi: which font are you using?
<lapo> that looks neat
<andreasn> ah, these are a bit Thicker than the ones in the old clearlooks, right?
<nothlit> kwwii: done
<andreasn> http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.5_1.png
<Cimi> andreasn, yes
<Cimi> as they have a little gradient
<Cimi> which will be invisible with a thinner stripe
<Cimi> lapo, dejavu condensed
<Cimi> with hinting low
<karma-ferit> clearlooks is was made me fall in love with gnome, that and the default icon set back in 2.4 covered all the apps really well
<kwwii> nothlit: how did you change the bit at the top of the Artwork page?
<lapo> looks nice, w/o any patches?
<kwwii> nothlit: thanks, btw :-)
<Cimi> lapo, lcd patches
<Cimi> btw with low hinting is almost similar
<andreasn> Cimi: seems like removing the line at the bottom makes it feel less like a separate object and more like a part of the tab.
<andreasn> Cimi: http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/clearlooks-tab.png
<kwwii> nothlit: ahhh, now I see how it is done
<Cimi> andreasn, I don't like without the bottom line
<Cimi> it will lose the gradient and the contrast of the whole theme
<andreasn> well, I don't think the contrast issue is that bad, I mean, you totally want to have contrast between say a selected and unselected menu item, or a button and it's background, but the stripe is part of the tag and not a separate object
<andreasn> but it's your theme, so I'm fine either way I guess
<Cimi> it looks 3D-ish with my approach, so as all the theme is 3d-ish I prefer it
<Cimi> if for you there's no difference (you like both) I'm fine with it
<darkmatter> it looks ok both ways. but saying that removing the line will upset the contrast of the theme is  a *slight* exageration ;)
<Cimi> darkmatter, did you see both screenshots?
<darkmatter> Cimi: yup
<Cimi> without that line it simply looks "out of place"
<darkmatter> its your theme, do what you will, besides, what do I know? I'm just an artist :P *shrugs*
<Cimi> darkmatter, I think me too ;)
<andreasn> I guess the line gives it a more bulky, heavy feel to it while the one without gives a more lightweight look so I guess it depends on what you aim for
<darkmatter> meh.I need to sell some more paintings
<Cimi> heavy
<andreasn> http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/graphics/xpscreencaptures/languagetab.gif <- the xp tab for comparison
<Cimi> the whole theme has 3d-ish and things like it
<Cimi> ops ugly! :)
<Cimi> why they are so bad in style -.-
<darkmatter> Cimi: lol. indeed. but like I said, either works. depends on personal taste. my opinion is indifferent. and its your vision, so you "rule the roost"
<Cimi> btw it's more similar to xp without the line
<Cimi> darkmatter, which do you like more?
<andreasn> as long as it works well in all applications I'm fine with it
<darkmatter> Cimi: lol. neither. both. one or the other ;)
<Cimi> ok
<darkmatter> apathy ftw :P
<Mandarancid> Hi
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Hi.
<Mandarancid> I'm interested to help the ubuntu studio artwork
<_MMA_> kwwii: Mandarancid is the "minimal-perception" icon creator.
<Mandarancid> yes
<Cimi> ciao Mandarancid
<Mandarancid> ciao
<Mandarancid> sei italiano??
<Cimi> andreasn, any other ideas on the tabs?
<Cimi> si
<andreasn> Cimi: not really, no
<Cimi> andreasn, last thouhgts: final decisions pro/against new look?
<andreasn> on the tabs?
<Cimi> yup
<_MMA_> ahh damn. I posted in the wrong channel. :)
<_MMA_> _MMA_: Mandarancid: I have a direction set out but since Im working alone I dont know if I can get it done. I was looking around Gnome-look ad saw your set.
<andreasn> +1 one for the more flat look that I mocked up I guess (there is a really funny line in the Royal Tendenbauns "Hey, it's just one mans opinion")
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: I showed kwwii and he liked it. He still has to talk with some others but maybe we can work together.
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: We could have your set as a mainline and a branches for Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio. Its a thought.
<Cimi> andreasn, abd between mines and old 2.20?
<troy_s> <andreasn> I guess the line gives it a more bulky, heavy feel to it while the one without gives a more lightweight look so I guess it depends on what you aim for
<troy_s> +1
<Mandarancid> Very good.. the true problem is the english.. I've some problem of translation
<Mandarancid> but with the dictionart
<Mandarancid> *y
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cimi's is a little better. Maybe he can help. :)
<andreasn> Cimi: hm, yours I think
<Mandarancid> Cimi is the creator of the murrine engines??
<darkmatter> troy_s: and you said *I* suffer from OCD ;)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Well that line has always stuck out to me as being completely goofy.  I see where it came from now.  Good thing theme designers are following the lead of XP.  lol.
<darkmatter> hehehe
<darkmatter> troy_s: I actually agree with you there
<troy_s> darkmatter: I honestly thought that piece of uglyness was a true 'innovation' on this side, but again, its mimicry.
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Are you working on icons for power options? Logout/Shutdown/Reboot and such?
<Mandarancid> yes i made the power option but i have some problem with the name
<Mandarancid> i must rename it
<Cimi> Mandarancid, murrine and clearlooks for gnome 2.20
<darkmatter> troy_s: that and the shift in the whole tango styled gnome icon theme getting re-maced
<darkmatter> re-mac'd
<darkmatter> *
<Mandarancid> Cimi: The clarlooks for gnome 2.20 is fantastic (per non parlare di murrine)
<Cimi> grazie =)
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: I recommend you use the Tango naming spec. It looks like you're using the Gnome one.
<Mandarancid> _MMA_ where i can find it??
<Cimi> fdo
<andreasn> troy_s: you mean the same way that the tax authorities in different countries keep copying the looks of each others tax forms?
<andreasn> :)
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: You can grab a Tango set installed on your system and use that. Ill also get you a link.
<darkmatter> troy_s: tango's always been. well.... tango (almost an insult in of itself), but it really went overboard when they did the whole "restyled osx icons"
<andreasn> darkmatter: what was that?
<Mandarancid> oh it's true...
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: http://tango.freedesktop.org/Standard_Icon_Naming_Specification I personally like grabbing a installed set. That way I can see how the simlinks work.
<andreasn> darkmatter: who did that?
<darkmatter> andreasn: meh. just ranting about all the osx icon metaphors that snuck into the gnome-icon-theme
<andreasn> darkmatter: what ones+
<andreasn> ?
<andreasn> darkmatter: as it might have been my fault
<darkmatter> andreasn: well. I'd have to look over the gallery again (which I really dont WANT to) to remember them all, but an easy example (one of the first I had noticed during the dev cycle before the 2.20 release) is the binoculars
<andreasn> darkmatter: ah yes that one. Yeah, so the deal was that we had both zoom and search
<andreasn> darkmatter: and both used a magnifying glass, while being completely different actions
<kwwii> andreasn: we use the same ones in oxygen now as well - until someone suggests something better I am not sure what else to use
<darkmatter> there are more. and its not a complaint per se. I just dont like copycatting anyone else (person preference being what it is)
<darkmatter> different strokes for different folks and all that jazz
<_MMA_> kwwii: How do we want to handle proposed icon sets? You have ideas to show Mark already?
<Cimi> andreasn,  http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6305/clearlookstabwb6.png ?
<andreasn> darkmatter: so we should stop using the folder metaphor for example? as Xerox Star used that? I tend to aim towards what makes sense as a pictogram rather than trying to come up with something that people won't get.
<andreasn> Cimi: looks sweet
<Cimi> andreasn, thinner tabs with a small line below
<andreasn> yeah, looks very good. Are you happy with it as well?
<darkmatter> andreasn: that's not quite what I meant, but if you must bring up folders. the metaphor is actually inaccurate ;)
<Cimi> not as mine but they're not so flat
<andreasn> darkmatter: oh?
<Cimi> mmm
<Cimi> andreasn, they look imho too thin compared to the dimensions of buttons etc etc
<kwwii> _MMA_: nothing together yet, we should get together a list of interesting ideas and I'll put them in the presentation
<darkmatter> andreasn: its just "what people are used to". the way we organize data in general, (not just applicable to computers, but to the real world as well) with differences in personally style of course, is as "collections" (more or less). of course what icon metaphor would best fit that is anyones best guess
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Can you join the Ubuntu-artwork mailing list?
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Also, do you mind if I post your set as a proposal or would you like to?
<andreasn> darkmatter: like Piles or Stacks?
<darkmatter> andreasn: or if you want the anal approach: computers dont have folders, (go ahead, crack open a HDD and find one, I dare you :P), so the folder analogy is a illogical :D
<darkmatter> andreasn: hmmm.. perhaps
 * kwwii cooks dinner
<Mandarancid> _MMA_Yes
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: I asked 2 questions. "Yes" to which one? :P
<andreasn> darkmatter: hm, yeah. Did you check out the OLPC journal? They take a more time/activity based approach to things. Anyway I guess the discussion drifted off... I'm sorry if my graphics made you upset
<Mandarancid> _MMA_: To every two
<darkmatter> andreasn: it kibda like this, you have magazines on your coffee table, books on your bookshelf, cd's in your cd rack, files at the office in filing cabinets (and thus the popular office metaphors in the PC world), so if you wanted a "one for all" generic approach, you'ld basically need to find a common metaphor for those :P
<darkmatter> andreasn: didnt say they upset me :)
<darkmatter> *kinda
 * andreasn hugs darkmatter
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> quit hugging me! I'm allergic!
<andreasn> :D
<Mandarancid> _MMA_ I'm raname the power icons but nothing to do
<Mandarancid> ..
<andreasn> oh, btw, did you ever get that nautilus patch with the borders in the sidebar in?
<Mandarancid> Registred at the mailing list
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cool. So you will post about the icons or will I?
<darkmatter> andreasn: nope. never submitted it. it's on disc, just need to dig it up and update it
<andreasn> darkmatter: was there a bug filed?
<Mandarancid> _MMA_: I can post about the icons but where?
<darkmatter> andreasn: no. but I was going to file one and attach the patch to the bug :D
<darkmatter> *brute force*
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Send a email to: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
<Mandarancid> _MMA_: I'll send a preview of the mail to you..
<_MMA_> Ok. :)
<Mandarancid> Now i go to work bye..
<darkmatter> andreasn: but I really need to work on that some more, it really made nautilus play nice with themes and not look.. hmm.. foreign
<darkmatter> thanks you for reminding me :)
<andreasn> darkmatter: cool
<andreasn> darkmatter: yeah, it would be really nice if that was fixed
<darkmatter> andreasn: I wouldnt mind fixing up the sidebar selector as well, maybe like the mockups for the sidebar I plyed around with after I did that patch
<darkmatter> *played
<andreasn> darkmatter: are those mockups online?
<darkmatter> andreasn: I think they still are. I had to take some stuff off flickr (free account, reached the max) :/ if not I know where they are and can repost them
<darkmatter> one sec. I'll chack my gallery
<darkmatter> *check
<darkmatter> andreasn: nope :/
<andreasn> :(
<darkmatter> heh. found a pic of another hack I never finished http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=204715612&size=o
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/184627263/ <--- was going to look like that next
<darkmatter> hmmm.. actually. I did add the search text http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=196895997&size=o
<TheSheep> darkmatter: you think there should be another button with 'Find Later'?
<darkmatter> TheSheep: *two* button. you forgot 'Find Yesterday' . LOL. it wasnt my design anyway. was cloning the old NLD!) slab mockup as a favor to som people
<darkmatter> *NLD10
<darkmatter> *some
<darkmatter> bah. whatever. bloody typos
<darkmatter> TheSheep: they had wanted something like http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/70004029/in/set-1506658/ and http://jimmac.musichall.cz/images/guimockups/desktop/menu_open.png ,so I caved because I couldn't stand the whining
<thorwil> hi!
<thorwil> how can i make screenshots of the gdm screen?
<Cimi> using xnest
<Cimi> is probably the faster ides
<Cimi> *idea
<thorwil> or where can i find shots of the gutsy gdm?
<thorwil> hmm. what options should i feed to Xnest?
<TheSheep> thorwil: try Xnest :1
<thorwil> a window! checkered background and nothing else, though :)
<TheSheep> thorwil: that's your nested X session
<thorwil> same for:  Xnest -query localhost :1
<thorwil> gdmXnestchooser sounds like it could be the right thing
<thorwil> but it fails with: indirect XDMCP is not enabled
<TheSheep> thorwil: try 'Xnest :1 -ac' and then 'xterm -display :1'
<thorwil> TheSheep: works as expected
<TheSheep> thorwil: now you can maybe try starting the chooser in there...
<thorwil> did, failed
<TheSheep> thorwil: another option would be to just run a livecd in qemu or something
<TheSheep> thorwil: or in vmware
<thorwil> i think i just need to figure out how to allow XDMCP
<TheSheep> -indirect host-name    contact named host for indirect XDMCP
<troy_s> thorwil: Add the xnest package and you should get a thing in tools that allows for 'nested window' which is gdmxnest or something.
<TheSheep> thorwil: you enable it in login window settings I think
<troy_s> thorwil: gdmxnest is it...
<troy_s> TheSheep: When I looked into it, aside from the super easy menu thing (which calls gdmxnest plus some vars), the cli version of gdmxnest was the easiest route.
<thorwil> troy_s: there's no menu item
<troy_s> thorwil: Grr... cant' remember what package sticks that in.  It should read 'Nested Logon in a New Window'
<troy_s> thorwil: At any rate, gdmxnest is the underlying mechanism.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I already don't like how awn works
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'll keep it for some more time and see if I can convert
<troy_s> TheSheep: What portion of it don't you like?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Niel and mal are very very responsive.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is a step in the right direction -- you should stick with it and help it evolve.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I can't have more than one terminal window without adding a zillion terminal launchers
<TheSheep> troy_s: and anything that has 'launch in terminal' set will appear as another terminal
<troy_s> TheSheep: ???  Have you tried dragging them from a Gnome menu / panel?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Oh you mean duplicating the windows...
<TheSheep> troy_s: 1. don't have gnome, 2. menu applet won't work with desktop-agnostic, 3. I want to have One launcher to start as many terminals as I need
<troy_s> TheSheep: Erm... I suppose that is a higher level issue.  The terminals these days support tabbed windows.
<troy_s> TheSheep: The main issue is whether or not the 'future' of terminals will go fully tabbed (as with gnome-terminal and others) or multi-termed.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm used to spatial desktop, I like to have multiple windows all over my workspace
<troy_s> TheSheep: And if you want that -- all you have to do is ask malept to put a hotkey in to launch a new instance.  For example, ctrl-click will add a new instance.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I bet he would add it in about two minutes.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't expect it to be a difficult addition.
<TheSheep> troy_s: the 'one maximised window at a time' Microsoft way is not very good
<troy_s> TheSheep: Tabbed != Microsoft.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Ask malept.
<troy_s> TheSheep: He would probably add it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I can't see what could be added to amend that
<troy_s> TheSheep: Uh... it is a simple change.  Instead of traversing the open windows, launch a new instance.
<troy_s> TheSheep: AWN merely needs to change the launch behave.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ah, but wouldn't it break the whole philosophy of the dock?
<troy_s> TheSheep: No.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Try using AWN for example with another launcher.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I would end with a bunch of identical icons then...
<troy_s> TheSheep: It works flawlessly -- multiple icons for the same app.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yep
<troy_s> TheSheep: Although theoretically I imagine that if you asked
<troy_s> TheSheep: It would probably end up in a stack.
<TheSheep> even worse
<troy_s> TheSheep: Then multiple icons.
<troy_s> TheSheep: You are being contrary you wiener.
<troy_s> ;)
<TheSheep> troy_s: it worked fine with the old panel
<troy_s> TheSheep: That is a tracker, and either it tracks multiple icons or it puts them into a stack.  There isn't an option.  It is better than the taskbar and figuring out how to track multiples is well... open to interpretation.
<troy_s> TheSheep: The old panel stacks them right? ;)
<TheSheep> troy_s: no
<TheSheep> troy_s: the old panel doesn't merge icons and launchers
<troy_s> TheSheep: Just a different graphical representation of the stack -- stack on the task menu or stack graphically as per OSX or stack as AWN does it (the slider)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Then you end up with multiple icons.
<TheSheep> troy_s: no, because I don't have icons for running programs
<troy_s> TheSheep: That is the default behave of AWN.  As I said, get malept to add a hotkey for a different process launch.
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/shot.png
<troy_s> TheSheep: What do you have?
<TheSheep> troy_s: pager
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't get wtf you want then.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Either you track the apps or you don't.
<troy_s> TheSheep: IF you track them, then you have either individual instances or stacks (task/stack versions)
<TheSheep> troy_s: I don't know what I want, I don't know the solution, I only know the problem
<troy_s> TheSheep: If you don't, then use a ring switcher.
<troy_s> TheSheep: WHAT DO YOU WANT THEN!?!?!?!
<TheSheep> I guess awn is not for me
<TheSheep> troy_s: actually it would work fine for most applications, just not for the terminal and file manager
<TheSheep> troy_s: two most needed applications
<troy_s> TheSheep: what do you want then?
<darkmatter> troy_s: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/guimockups.php?mockup=switcher <-- *that's* a ring switcher (yes its ugly and yes its just a mockup) but its muck better than the current crap in fusion
<darkmatter> *much
<nothlit> you can start more than one app from awn launchers, its middle click or something
<troy_s> darkmatter: We are working on a ring switcher
<troy_s> darkmatter: tonic and i
<troy_s> very much like awn, but more 'flow from one ring hover to the next'
<darkmatter> troy_s: mouse capable?
<troy_s> darkmatter: of course
<darkmatter> good
<troy_s> darkmatter: a key component is to make the mouse wheel spin like a wheel of fortune
<troy_s> darkmatter: make it 'feel ' right.
<troy_s> darkmatter: that is one godawful looking ring switcher.
<TheSheep> nothlit: hmm... ok, then it must be another bug in my copy :) Error: Failed to execute child process "xfce4-terminal" (Bad address)
<darkmatter> this daft sort from a to z from the keyboard is senseless
<darkmatter> troy_s: yeah. its ugly but the concept is solid.
<thorwil> thanks Cimi, TheSheep, troy_s!
<thorwil> through a bug report i learned the right command: gdmflexiserver -d --xnest
<nothlit> they have it all set up for you
<nothlit> its just hidden in the menu, thorwil
<nothlit> if you edit the menu you can reveal a lot of hidden shortcuts
<TheSheep> troy_s: I think I have an idea for the 'row of identical icons' problem
<thorwil> i only know it's not in the menu as it comes
<kwwii> dang, I had a mockup for a switcher almost exactkly like jimmacs - freaky
<nothlit> you just have to click the checkbox lol
<kwwii> I also took that same idea for an interface for a file manager
<troy_s> thorwil: THATS IT!
<troy_s> thorwil: couldn't remember it.
<troy_s> darkmatter: The absolutely best ring interface thus far was the one for neverwinter nights
<troy_s> darkmatter: although it would probably be better if it used scaling to keep the 'circle' more of a slight ellipse and fade the bits into the distance
<troy_s> darkmatter: that one is something out of a 1970s submarine
<troy_s> darkmatter: just bloody awful.
<darkmatter> troy_s: themewise I agree
<Cimi> andreasn, aren't too "thin" ? http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9827/schermatack4.png
<Cimi> comparison http://www.cimitan.com/blog/wp-content/new-gummy-tabs-2.png
<andreasn> looks good, schermatack4 that is
<Cimi> kk
<Cimi> so you still prefer the thinner ones..
<andreasn> I guess so, yes
<Cimi> andreasn, you're in the 99% of goys
<Cimi> *guys
<Cimi> I'm probably the one who prefer the fat ones :D
<andreasn> make it a compile flag option ;)
<Cimi> lol
 * TheSheep wonders how is one supposed to drag a window to next workspace with a graphical tablet...
<Cimi> andreasn, I think we should propose a wallpaper contest as oxygen guys
<kwwii> man, those oxygen guys are sooo smart
<Cimi> they got amazing wallz
<Cimi> kwwii, only smart
<andreasn> Cimi: we should just steal the right off
 * andreasn runs
<Cimi> not talented artists :D
<Cimi> for me the best thing in oxygen are the wallz
<andreasn> but yeah, the wallpaper selection was quite nice, I liked kwwii's field
<troy_s> andreasn: the most well composed is probably the house
<kwwii> I am sure that we could do a contest and get quite a few people - the results of the oxygen contest amazed me
<kwwii> it turned out to be more work sorting through them than we expected
<Cimi> andreasn, claim for a contest
<troy_s> that abstract blue one at the end is most nasty composition, but a very innovative technique using the line clone.
<darkmatter> troy_s: you know whats really innovative? a ring switcher that accepts mouse clicks as well as the wheel (click an app in the switcher to bring it fronside)
<darkmatter> hint hint ;)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Yeah.  Done and done.
<troy_s> darkmatter: although mouse interface is a little tricky as you need to figure out how to have it spin.  my gut is telling me to have two hot-zones for right and left.
<darkmatter> good boy. if it doesn't work on my box I'll kill ya (thats what she said)
<troy_s> darkmatter: we are considering using sdl for full agnostic
<darkmatter> nice
 * kwwii picks up his kid from basketball...bbl
<darkmatter> troy_s: I'm working an a wormhole/spacefold (because stacks are taken and I cant think of a better name atm) for the filer/desktop icons (see my "folders suck" rant above) that lets you preview and navigate a collection. because the fastest way from a-z is not a straight line. its by punching a hole in space
<troy_s> darkmatter: 3d ring yes?
<darkmatter> sorta
<troy_s> darkmatter: the basis of the interface thing tonic and i are working on is a 3d ring essentially.
<darkmatter> :)
<troy_s> darkmatter: the only element is transitioning from one selection to another.
<troy_s> darkmatter: i was hoping for some sort of 'backup / up/undo' that cascades out of the original ringlet.
<darkmatter> yeah. seems the most logical
<troy_s> quite doable however.
<darkmatter> troy_s: also needs to be visual distinguished from the rest of the ui. I was thinking something similar in some respects to the OSX HUD's (dark, translucent background) to identify it as *not just another ui element*
<darkmatter> in regards to my wormhole
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> yeah.. perhaps a thin layer
<troy_s> darkmatter: have you tried awn lately?
<darkmatter> troy_s: yup. latest bzr installed in suse
<troy_s> darkmatter: it is pretty darn impressive
<darkmatter> I love the #D spin
<darkmatter> 3D*
<troy_s> darkmatter: hate.  flat guy here.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> reflections are a tad uh... dated
<troy_s> but on the whole a huge +1
<troy_s> glossy crappy shiny crap everywhere
<darkmatter> lol. troy_sI dont use it. I just love how smoothly its implemented
<troy_s> darkmatter: have you tried awn-extras?
<troy_s> darkmatter: the extras are where the value is.
<troy_s> darkmatter: as in replacing that nasty upstream gnome stuffs.
<darkmatter> very smooth drawing, right down to the shadows. almost like the icons were done that way originally
<troy_s> darkmatter: namely the awn-mainmenu, the folder browser, etc.
<darkmatter> troy_s: yeah. compiled them
<troy_s> its very good.
<darkmatter> troy_s: its almost a full panel replacement (well, technically its already there)
<troy_s> darkmatter: yes.  the system tray (lack of standards and gtk legacy) is the weak link
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: standalone tray works wonderfully though.  unfortunately it has pretty complicated code to accommodate the blasted 'oh and this case oh and this case"
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> troy_s: screw a tray, unified task manager (I'm hungry! oh look its a tray icon, oh look its a modal dialog! *swallow*)
<darkmatter> well. not all modals. just the modals that exist where they shouldn't (and yes. theres a few of those kicking around)
<titanix88> hi people
<titanix88> hi kwiii
<titanix88> anyone here? :o
<Cimi> hi titanix88
<titanix88> i heard ubuntu is going to have major artwork reconstruction.:)
<titanix88> i heard ubuntu is going to have major artwork reconstruction.:)
<titanix88> hi nothlit:)
<titanix88> someone in the mailing list said icons should be colourful. i say the same.
<troy_s> titanix88: I don't think you would find anyone who disagrees.  But 'icons' is too big a term.
<titanix88> i mean file manager icons.
<troy_s> titanix88: But of course, colourful is realtive (how many colours?  How much differing value?  How much differing hue?)
<titanix88> we can use dynamic contrast to differtiate side by side folder icons.
<troy_s> titanix88: Before you make a suggestion, I would encourage you to figure out if the tech exists as already coded.
<troy_s> titanix88: Then perhaps figure out what audience it would work for.
<troy_s> titanix88: And then figure out if it works with the aesthetic 'outline' that kwwii will lay out.
<titanix88> well like lists in amarok.
<titanix88> aesthetik outline? i dont get it...:o
<titanix88> aesthetik outline? i dont get it...:o
<troy_s> titanix88: Aesthetic.
<troy_s> titanix88: Aesthetic == the realm of appearance.
<titanix88> ok ok aesthetic...
<titanix88> the realm of appearance?its getting more complicated...:s
<titanix88> what do u think abt new proposed theme?
<titanix88> what do u think abt new proposed theme?
<troy_s> titanix88: Well considering there isn't one, there isn't a thought.
<troy_s> titanix88: There haven't been any official mocks, nor direction yet.  kwwii still needs to present it and get some idea that it will 'happen'.
<titanix88> i saw one from digg...:o
<troy_s> titanix88: and that is more about politicking than work at this point.  Make no mistake, _that_ task is far more difficult.
<troy_s> titanix88: Was that official?
<troy_s> titanix88: Did anyone do their homework on that?
<troy_s> titanix88: ;)
<titanix88> i wish to register myself as a politician. where can i do that?;)
<troy_s> titanix88: To get the default design changed?
<troy_s> titanix88: Digg's post was rather uh -- ill-informed.
<titanix88> yeah maybe. just kidding. i submitted a wallpaper which got least attention last time.:((
<troy_s> titanix88: Attention is not really important.
<titanix88> than what do u make art for?o_O
<troy_s> titanix88:  There have been a good number of amazing works created through the ages that didn't get 'attention' until the individual was dead.  ;)
<troy_s> titanix88: Creating something for attention is perhaps the worst possible starting vantage.
<troy_s> titanix88: That is nothing more than the teenager shouting at the back of the class for attention.  It amounts to nothing.
<titanix88> sorry, but my artwork wont be one of those for sure(believe me)!;)
<titanix88> btw i am 19
<troy_s> titanix88: Sure, but if you don't get bothered by a lack of attention you just might keep trying to learn the craft -- and after a while who knows what could happen.
<troy_s> titanix88: Hell... the creative person who stops learning or loses the sense of 'I know nothing' might as well be dead.
<titanix88> yeah yeah i got over it the other way. i understood art is not for me. i spend my time programming nowadays.
<troy_s> titanix88: You are aware that it wasn't that long ago that 'artists' practised music, science, illustration, and a plethora of other 'creative' things.
<titanix88> thats a good motivation.what do u think?:)
<troy_s> titanix88: It is the more modern era that has wanted to 'classifiy' and restrict personalities.
<troy_s> titanix88: Any decent book on the Renaissance might reveal a few personalities of interest.  Da Vinci wasn't the anomaly, he was the norm during that era.
<TheSheep> wasn't actually 'aesthetic' related to 'producing things'?
<titanix88> its because now science or art is not that primitive as they were than.
<troy_s> titanix88: Wow.  That is quite a statement.
<TheSheep> primitive, heh
<troy_s> titanix88: I would encourage you to research that a little further and see how you feel about that statement.  It might be a little... optically questionable.  ;)
<titanix88> i mean u can learn a lot, but cant master all of them.
<titanix88> do u suggest gramartical error?
<titanix88> i know i am poor in english.
<troy_s> titanix88: No.  I was just suggesting that the modern want to 'classify' people and that old fallacy of 'jack of all trades master of none' is rather not the case when looking at the Renaissance.
<troy_s> titanix88: It is some strange modern thing.  Perhaps one day soon it will change.
<troy_s> titanix88: During the Renaissance, there were more than a few people who mastered art and science in certain capacities, and in fact, their success might have been rooted in that approach.
<titanix88> hmm.
<titanix88> hmm.
<thorwil> even renaissance people have only 24 hours a day ;)
<thorwil> troy_s: what's the english term for people who support an artist, paying him to do his thing?
<thorwil> ah, a patron. seems quite important if you need all day to master several arts
<thorwil> hmm. would i like Qemu Launcher or Qemulator?
<titanix88> thorwil u got the point.
<thorwil> why, thank you, i always wanted to have a point :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Most of those folks who got paid to do their multi-disciplined work were getting paid for patronage _after_ they achieved their ability.
<TheSheep> troy_s: Michealangelo comes to mind...
<thorwil> maybe today's education system takes away too much time that could be spent with learning and practicing otherwise ;)
<TheSheep> thorwil: it's the 'factory' approach that is designed to 'produce' specialists
<TheSheep> thorwil: and schools are 'storage for children when parents work' more than anything
<thorwil> jepp
<troy_s> thorwil: Our little FOSS crowd is an interesting mix.
<TheSheep> thorwil: there are practically no apprentices today
<troy_s> thorwil: Mixed disciplines (albeit not enough artists/musicians)
<TheSheep> troy_s: bah, practically every programmer I know plays some instrument
<troy_s> TheSheep: That's good.  Mixed disciplines still.  It is an interesting thing.  There could be a good case to be made that it is some sort of segue into a neo-Renaissance.
<TheSheep> troy_s: actually, from all of my friends, the least 'universal' are the teachers :)
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> hmm. there's a number of people who apply DIY to several fields. coding being just one. but, hey, i already or still think of doing-it-yourself as the special case
<TheSheep> thorwil: no, DIY is the norm, or at least I think it should be
<troy_s> thorwil: DIY only really worked when the trained designers got ahold of it ;)
<TheSheep> thorwil: there was that essay by Guido Van Rossum taht said something like "every computer user should program. you don't use your computer if you can't program it"
<troy_s> thorwil: (If we look to movements -- DIY was very effective.)
<TheSheep> troy_s: have you read 'Themepunks' by Cory Doctorow?
<troy_s> TheSheep: No, but I had a brief chat with him via email.
<troy_s> TheSheep: He is quite a clever bugger.
<TheSheep> troy_s: the story is kind of idealistic, but I know a lot of people who actually work to make it happen
<TheSheep> troy_s: small-scale production based on open projects and reuse of existing things
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yes.  We are most certainly in an era that is roughly one part "Dark Ages" mixed with a good part "Renaissance" -- it is an exciting time to be involved with FOSS.
<troy_s> TheSheep: We will most certainly look back in 100 years and wonder how anything else was even an option.
<TheSheep> troy_s: "may you live in interesting times" <-- an old chinese curse
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-23
<nysosym> hi there
<nysosym> i have made a wallpaper, what do you think?
<nysosym> http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=smoothblack2sepiacopyfz6.png
<Mandarancid> I'm searching  ?lvaro Medina Ballester
<Mandarancid> He is on this channel??
<thorwil> is it possible to fill any block in text mode with graphics, or is that somehow restricted? (boot screen)
<TheSheep> thorwil: you only have 255 characters, and half of them is needed for letters
<TheSheep> thorwil: so you can only have about 128 different shapes, possibly less
<thorwil> ah, ok
<TheSheep> they can repeat, of course
<thorwil> TheSheep, i have images that look like keys for the F options in mind
<kwwii> we do not have a graphical grub currently
<thorwil> kwwii, i mean the boot screen of the live cd
<kwwii> ahhh, right
<kwwii> sys-linux
<thorwil> so, to be sure i get this right: the whole screen is divided into mono-sized characters. there's a table of 255 characters. if you want to do graphics, you have to use otherwise free characters. what about colour depth?
<TheSheep> thorwil: every character has one of 16 foreground colors, and one of 8 background colors (unless blinking is disabled, then you get 16 background colors
<TheSheep> thorwil: the 8 background colors are the same as the first 8 foreground colors
<thorwil> TheSheep, ty :)
 * thorwil -> coffee
<kwwii> erm, I just borked the wiki
<_MMA_> lol
 * _MMA_ points at Ken and snickers.
<kwwii> _MMA_: fixed
<_MMA_> :(
 * _MMA_ wanted to add to Kens daily suffering.
<kwwii> so, I had a chat with Jono today and we are going to start making monthly reports
<kwwii> I voluntell _MMA_ to make them :p
<_MMA_> Yeah. He just PM'ed me also.
<_MMA_> Hell. I aint doing 2.
<_MMA_> :P
<kwwii> if you are doing one for ubuntu-studio how much more work can the artwork one be?
<_MMA_> lol
<TheSheep> monthly == it takes a month to make them? :)
<kwwii> anyway...everything you are doing as far as artwork goes will be promptly stolen by us
<kwwii> TheSheep: hehe, no doubt
<andreasn_> congrats _MMA_ on having to do the reports ;)
<_MMA_> lol
 * _MMA_ runs screaming.
<kwwii> andreasn_: scott asked me to approximate how long it takes to make an entire icon set, I said 2-3 years :-)
<kwwii> sound right?
<andreasn_> covering all the apps in universe I would say 7-8 years
<andreasn_> as you have like 14000 apps or something like that
<andreasn_> all of them aren't gui apps I would guess though
<andreasn_> but I think gnomefiles have about 1200 registered applications
<_MMA_> kwwii: And Scott's response? :)
<kwwii> andreasn_: yeah, there really is no such thing as a finished icon set as new aps come along every day
<andreasn_> yes
<kwwii> _MMA_: he simply accepted that
<_MMA_> Ahh.... Cool.
<kwwii> I told him that to rework the human set (partial set) it would take at least 6-9 months to get most of them done
<kwwii> i had to approximate how much time everything takes...kinda hard to pull numbers our of your butt without being able to explain how one thing can change everything else, getting things coherent, etc
<andreasn_> yeah, time estimates are often quite hard
<kwwii> after we went through them he said "oh, we have quite a lot of extra time" which kinda worried me
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> I know now that the mobile stuff is going to come back to haunt me
<andreasn_> heh
<kwwii> soooo. since _MMA_ is too lazy to really help with the team, I went ahead and did his work this month: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/ReportingPage
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> Im working on my own as we speak.
<kwwii> let me know if you need any help :p
<kwwii> anyone know how to turn off the panel in gnome?
<andreasn_> like removing it?
<kwwii> yeah
<andreasn_> right click, "Delete this panel"
<Mandarancid> _MMA_: I made tow simple variants of my folder icons, (blue for ubuntu studio and orange for ubuntu)
<kwwii> andreasn_: the top panel does not have that option
<andreasn> kwwii: hm, really?
<andreasn> works here
<kwwii> andreasn: hrm, it is greyed out
<thorwil> kwwii, maybe turn of restarting in session prefs and then just kill gnome-panel?
<andreasn> kwwii: oh, seems you're right
<andreasn> hm
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cool. I have as well. Give me about an hour and we can talk about it.
<lapo> hi
<Mandarancid> _MMA_:OK
<kwwii> thorwil: hrm, you might be right but I don't want to bork my system just yet
<kwwii> anyway, been using awn lately...have to say that it is really nice
<thorwil> kwwii, shouldn't be hard o revert changes to the session. but you could do it in a new user account
<andreasn> kwwii: apparently you can only kill one if you have two panels
<kwwii> thorwil: right, I will try it in my test account to see what works and how easy it is get back to the normal settings
<kwwii> anyone else tried the avant window navigator?
<elkbuntu> i've been meaning too, but i've been trying to find a rent-paying job so much lately i havent really had time/motivation to do any meddling
<elkbuntu> it'd be nice if newbies that dont understand what an alpha is would stop trying to use it only to whine when it isnt entirely stable
<elkbuntu> i'm actually geeking out for the first time in months... reinstalling my debian system and reintroducing myself to e17 for the first time since around march
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> e17 has some interesting ideas but it is still pretty raw
<elkbuntu> it's actually nearing some form of maturity according to rasterman
<elkbuntu> http://www.osnews.com/story.php/18886/Rasterman-Speaks-Out-About-Enlightenment/
<elkbuntu> i think it's pretty amazing what they've managed to get it to do... almost a poor man's compiz
<kwwii> hehe, new artowrk from rasterman, I can't wait to see that
<kwwii> until now I thought that the gold stuff was all he could do :p
<elkbuntu> heh, i quite like the gold bling look
<kwwii> I did too, about 9 years ago
<elkbuntu> :Ã
<elkbuntu> how's your engraved look coming along?
<kwwii> haven't been working on it today, probably do more on the weekend
<andreasn> kwwii: managed to delete the panel?
<andreasn> kwwii: according to vuntz the system kinds of expect you to have at least one panel, there might be a bug open about it though
<andreasn> kwwii: maybe it works to just kill it
<kwwii> andreasn: nope, I am waiting until I login as another user
<Mandarancid> _MMA_: i send you the mail with
<Mandarancid> the prototypes
<Mandarancid> ..
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cool. You should also talk with kwwii about waiting ubtill we have a little more direction for the art.
<_MMA_> We dont want you to do alot now only to have to change it later.
<Mandarancid> _MMA_: Of course, I do only some little ideas, work for 5-30 minutes
<Mandarancid> ..
<Mandarancid> Not a problme
<Mandarancid> --
<_MMA_> Ok. :)
<kwwii> Mandarancid: maybe we could set a time to dicuss your ideas?
<kwwii> I am taking my family our for dinner in a bit, let's find a time when we could talk about this
<Mandarancid> Yes when you can..
<Mandarancid> a moment i search the dictionary for transalte some words
<Mandarancid> I'm free tomorrow after lunch and in the afternoon
<Mandarancid> if you and _MMA_ can..
<kwwii> that could work for me (I am in the same time zone as you I think)
<_MMA_> I can meet whenever.
<Mandarancid> I live in italy
<_MMA_> Just need a time.
<kwwii> Mandarancid: yeah, I live in germany
<kwwii> let's say somewhere around 13:00 UTC which would be 15:00 CET, sound good?
<_MMA_> After 3pm your time is good for me.
<Mandarancid> ok 3.30 ?
<kwwii> then _MMA_ will have time to eat breakfast first ;-)
<_MMA_> ;)
<_MMA_> 12:30 UTC then.
<_MMA_> no
<_MMA_> 13:30
 * _MMA_ is mixed up.
<Mandarancid> Yhea
<_MMA_> Whatever. Ill be around. :D
<kwwii> right, around 13:30 UTC
<_MMA_> Done.
<kwwii> In the meantime I think in UTC :p
<Mandarancid> dok
 * kwwii is out for dinner, bbl
 * _MMA_ goes to play with the family.
<troy_s> <andreasn> kwwii: managed to delete the panel?
<troy_s> pkill works.
<hbons> i think you can't delete your last panel
<troy_s> hbons: you need to pkill it.
<troy_s> hbons: I know what kwwii is probably trying to do -- rid himself of the clunky gnome panels.
<troy_s> hbons: kill -9 pid or pkill worked for me.
<darkmatter> troy_s: I hate osx clones, but this deserves points just for the execution http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Aurora+Firefox+Theme+and+more?content=70138
<darkmatter> as its not frankensteinish like the other mac-wannabe's
<troy_s> yeah
<troy_s> i would give that a cautionary plus one for certain
<andreasn> Regarding unified toolbars. How do you know what area to hit & drag?
<troy_s> andreasn: I would hope that you learn it rather quickly.
<darkmatter> andreasn: oh oh oh! I know the answer! you just use the mindset of a gnome developer and remove the option! :D
 * darkmatter smart
<darkmatter> S.M.R.T.
<hbons> andreasn: hand pointer:)
<darkmatter> my options better :P
<troy_s> hbons: Ugh
<troy_s> lol
<hbons> o just patch gtk:P
<troy_s> how about we make an assumption that our audience member is leveraging an existing mental model and has used a computer previously.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> hbons: We could do a neat composited floating set of about 16 arrows that point at the bar.
<darkmatter> troy_s: but that goes against the HIG!
<darkmatter> blasphemy!
<darkmatter> that, btw. applied to the first statement ;)
<hbons> does ubuntu even folow gnome hig for it's tools
<troy_s> darkmatter: Yeah.  That good old 'usability' fallacy.
<darkmatter> hehe
<troy_s> hbons: Well considering it is an absolute fallacy, I would wonder why.
<hbons> i see a lot of "OK" buttons in ubuntu:)
<darkmatter> troy_s: indeed "all users are idiots." as the would have us believe
<troy_s> darkmatter: I don't think that is the goal of the HIG, but keeping the amount of information to process within some limits per appearance (READ:  Progressive Discolusure) is something that gets a plus one from me.
<thorwil> darkmatter, i think you havn't seen enough users in action ;)
<troy_s> darkmatter: I have a bigger issue with the fact that the HIG presents itself as truth without discussing the intended audience.
<darkmatter> troy_s: I remember a discussion with one usability expert who thought that all the toolbar icons needed to be different colours because users wouldnt be able to identify them based on shape (as in back, forward, up, down)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Well... again, usability is a fallacy.
<darkmatter> exactly
<troy_s> darkmatter: It is one term that has no bearing, no usefulness, and absolutely no meaning without stating very clearly _who_ the usable is for.
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: We can certainly make 'groupings' but it falls into that focus issue.  Too many people the delivery is watered down for the 'group' and too few it becomes too 'specific'.
<thorwil> troy_s, do you know the din iso definition of usability?
<thorwil> troy_s, in short: effectivity, efficiency and satisfaction building up on each other, as seen for a specific task/context and specific users
<troy_s> thorwil: the last portion is the only part that matters.
<darkmatter> usability should be a matter of interpretation as it applies to a focus group.
<troy_s> thorwil: Specific users.
<thorwil> troy_s, so i would think with such a definition usability is not a fallacy. but you didn't limit your statement at all.
<troy_s> thorwil: I said it because it comes out as much as 'is ugly'
<troy_s> thorwil: The statements tend to be thrown around in a quasi scientific fashion, when in actually, they have no more bearing than the term 'good'.
<thorwil> troy_s, uninformed people misuse any term. can't shoot all the terms down ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Oh and if you can point me to the globally accepted definition of Usability I'll be darn impressed.
<thorwil> troy_s, din iso standard isn't too bad, i think. i rather pick a definition that makes the term useful instead of throwing it away
<thorwil> food, bbl
<troy_s> thorwil: True enough.  That said, it is only as good as the folks who are using the same interpretation again I suppose.
<troy_s> thorwil: My gut says to just throw it out simply because it helps people to avoid the very real fact that _Everything_ is in the context of the individual.  There was a very good article dismissing the notion of 'global culture' recently.  Great read as it completely smashes that myth (not exactly shocking for anyone who cares).
<darkmatter> usability should be filed under "see situational software".
<troy_s> darkmatter: The only issue I really have with it is since I have been reading bug reports in Linux land.
<troy_s> darkmatter: The term gets thrown around at least as much as all of the 'laws', again ignoring the context, and more importantly, ignoring the very real 'functional' and 'usable' features of aesthetics.
<darkmatter> troy_s: true. I dont know if you've ever witnessed me rant about fitts law in a similar context to you ranting on usability. ;)
<andreasn> darkmatter: sorry for the delay, I'm in the middle of cooking dinner. I didn't mean that a unified toolbar was bad in itself, it was just a something that I came to think of while I was playing around with mockups of unitoolbar.
<darkmatter> andreasn: I know. I was just attempting to be "witty" and failing miserably at it ;)
<andreasn> darkmatter: I guess some of the solutions was text changing color on hover, making everything in the window that wasn't a widget draggable etc.
<andreasn> anyway, back to dinner cooking, later!
<darkmatter> troy_s: basically my take on all the laws and principles is that everything has a time and place, but there is no "all for one" clause and they should never be interpreted that way
<darkmatter> troy_s: I've seen some vary good (well, decent) ui designs that have form and function that get shot down because they "*break* the HIG, and are thus unusable", "do not fitt", etc etc
<darkmatter> but you need to look at such aspects as they relate to the application itself. what its meant to do, and how well it accomplishes that goal (form an function ftw!)
<darkmatter> *very
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-24
<ddddd> hello a little question i can not reach art.ubuntu.com is there a good reason ?
<ddddd> somerville32: maybe they all sleep
 * somerville32 nods.
<_MMA_> kwwii: I'm around whenever Mandarancid gets here.
<_MMA_> Hi Mandarancid.
<_MMA_> kwwii: ping
<Mandarancid> Hi to all
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: So now we have to wait for kwwii to answer.
<Mandarancid> yes..
<Mandarancid> Go to use xchat and not pidgin
<kwwii> pong
<Mandrancid> Hi kwwi
<kwwii> hi Mandrancid, _M
<kwwii> hi Mandrancid, _MMA_
<Mandrancid> _MMA_??
<kwwii> Mandrancid: can you point me to that docuement you made with idea for changes?
<Mandrancid> I send it for mail at _MMA_
<Mandrancid> if you want send you the mail
<Mandrancid> else i can post it on deviantart
<_MMA_> Im here.
<_MMA_> (was eating)
<_MMA_> :)
<Mandrancid> I'm sorry :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: I sent you the svg the other day.
<Mandrancid> this is only some ideas to apply at my icones
<Mandrancid> _MMA_: what do you think about it?
<_MMA_> I like then but for Ubuntu/Ubuntu Studio I would do a little modifications.
<_MMA_> Mostly taking down the shine on the icons.
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, can't find it for some reason
<_MMA_> Though I like some of the reflections below the icons.
<Mandrancid> mm what is the shine?
<Mandrancid> (my english vocabulary is very shorts)
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: On the icons themselves.
<_MMA_> The "gloss"
<Mandrancid> aaa the gloss
<Mandrancid> ok
<Mandrancid> isn't a problem..
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: So my idea is if kwwii gets approval that there is your main branch, and I will have a branch and kwwii will have one.
<kwwii> right, the highlight could be taken down a step somehow...so that they look a bit more matte
<_MMA_> +1
<Mandrancid> Branch??
<kwwii> right
<Mandrancid> what the mining of branch?
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: You can have your version as the main one then kwwii and I will have our own versions.
<_MMA_> But yours will be a base.
<Mandrancid> sure
<kwwii> so _MMA_ can make a blue version, ubuntu and orange version, etc
<kwwii> note that using this in ubuntu depends on the decision from my boss
<Mandrancid> Of course..
<Mandrancid> The problem : my iconset isn't finished
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: Sure. We can help with that also.
<kwwii> right
<_MMA_> If you look at a installed Tango set we can use that as a start.
<kwwii> also I think that we will need to add a bit of contrast to some things..like the emblems and buttos
<Mandrancid> I installed the tango icons and i resolve some naming problem (power and save icons
<Mandrancid> )
<Mandrancid> kwwii: mm for the buttons of the file manager i think is ok .. but is only my opinion
<_MMA_> Cool. I like the mime-type icons. (file-types) as well as the drives and Trash. The "Computer" might be too flat for Ubuntu's look.
<Mandrancid> yea the mimetypes must to be redisegned
<kwwii> I am not suggesting adding and depth or 3d elements, rather just increasing the contrast of some parts
<kwwii> s/and/any
<_MMA_> No. I liked them. :)
<Mandrancid> a ok
<kwwii> making certain little parts a bit darker or lighter so they stand out a bit more, nothing radical
 * kwwii has to check the chili cooking on the stove, brb
<Mandrancid> Yea infact i made some different icon for computer and drivers
<Mandrancid> I made also some applications icon (but i'm not sure of this)
<_MMA_> I think for now we can stay away from the apps and try to work on system icons. (once/if we get approval)
<Mandrancid> sure, the actions icon are all to do ..
<Mandrancid> I see on the ubuntu studio artwork a set of flat icons
<Mandrancid> but i don't find the link i would to download it..
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: Thats a concept set that I will be putting aside for now.
<Mandrancid> ah ok
<Mandrancid> i love the flat icons
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Im actually writing a email now about changing concepts.
<karma-ferit> so whats the new concept?
<_MMA_> The concept looks to be too much for people to understand and all the art is on me ATM.
<_MMA_> karma-ferit: For?
 * _MMA_ is talking about Ubuntu Studio.
<karma-ferit> ah ok
<karma-ferit> i like the glossy bars :)
<_MMA_> Thanx but its dead and wont return. ;)
<karma-ferit> so why are you changing that concept?
<_MMA_> Because people dont seem get it, and I'm receiving no real help. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
<Mandrancid> and idea for computer icon http://mandarancio.deviantart.com/art/Computer-icon-m-p-70543286
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: cool :)
<Mandrancid> thanks
<Mandrancid> in the download there is the svg
<_MMA_> kwwii: What else do you have to say?
<karma-ferit> well that is different
<Mandrancid> ??
<Toma-> :(
<_MMA_> I think he's talking to me Mandrancid.
<karma-ferit> don't think the folks that fell in love with the over glossed bars will be content with punk rock plastered on the desktop :-p
<kwwii> well, I think that we already decided to move away from the glossy stuff unless the thing in real life is glossy
<karma-ferit> in reference to _mma_'s links
<Mandrancid> A good idea (i didn't like the glossy icons (but my folders are glossy))
<kwwii> _MMA_: it is nothing personal, people want to go on and on about how we should do ubuntu and when I tell them that they could help ubuntu-studio or kubuntu or xubuntu, etc. they are suddently not interested
<_MMA_> karma-ferit: I really dont care about the folks that fell in love with the gloss. I care about artists that get the concept helping.
<_MMA_> Im just not getting the help.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Oh I know how it goes.
<karma-ferit> so no artists interested?
<_MMA_> karma-ferit: Oh plenty of people interested and like the concept but like in Ubuntu its the rare person who actually steps up and does something.
<_MMA_> Most people will just talk alot.
<_MMA_> :P
<Mandrancid> I'm making some test with my icons without glossy..
<Mandrancid> aren't bad...
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> I think it has more to do with the fact that people do not want to follow art direction...everyone wants to do their own thing without realizing that you need several people to create a finished fully themed desktop
<kwwii> anyway...
<karma-ferit> so does Canonical sponsor studio ubuntu's art?
<_MMA_> No
<kwwii> karma-ferit: and we have no say in it what so ever
<kwwii> the only artwork that canonical decides on and pays for is ubuntu artwork
<Mandrancid> However if i can do anything i'll happy to do it..
<Mandrancid> for the ubuntu art comunity
<_MMA_> Cool. Hopefully we hear something positive from the boss. ;)
<Mandrancid> I hope.. :)
<Mandrancid> a curiosity:
<Mandrancid> who is the boss??
<_MMA_> Mark S.
<kwwii> mark shuttleworth
<karma-ferit> sabdfl
<_MMA_> And then kwwii (Ken) when it comes to the art.
<Mandrancid> he  is the boss of all ubuntu.. and hi decide also for the art??
<karma-ferit> _MMA_: so you do the studio ubuntu's artwork, its rather good
<darkmatter> he has the final say, yes
<darkmatter> Mandrancid: ^
<Mandrancid> the boss??
<darkmatter> yup
<Mandrancid> interesting
<_MMA_> karma-ferit: Yes. I had more help with Feisty though.
<karma-ferit> ah ok
<karma-ferit> who else helps now?
<_MMA_> Well some things are in a holding pattern till we get the word from Mark.
<_MMA_> So we'll see who steps up after that.
<hbons> this boss thing creeps me out:P
<_MMA_> There's always a boss.
<hbons> not when you are one
<darkmatter> hbons: thats one of the things I like about how suse is handling things now. they have a small council that actually *votes* ;P
<kwwii> lol, even on the artwork?
<darkmatter> kwwii: I believe so.. let me check again
<kwwii> they just tried to have something like our community council
<kwwii> anyway.../me finished cooking chili
 * _MMA_ goes to write emails.
 * Mandrancid no glossy icons test finished
<_MMA_> Ill take a look if you want.
<Mandrancid> _MMA_:ok i mod only folder categories and some actions
<_MMA_> ok
<Mandrancid> I'll send it email
<troy_s> and look
<troy_s> suse's work sucks
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> darkmatter: You should be able to see the clear hideous implications on anything innovative / progressive when it comes to voting.
<darkmatter> troy_s: indeed. but even though its a roadblock it still has better results than the "mark method" ;)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Unless the voting party is extremely creative oriented with an agenda for new concepts, I can only imagine that voting would result in utter 'tow the line-itus'
<troy_s> darkmatter: That is only because Mark has no clue.
<troy_s> darkmatter: And SUSEs work is _awful_.
<darkmatter> troy_s: my point exactly :P
<troy_s> darkmatter: Heck, SUSE and Fedora 8 are both ghastly returns to uber-conservativism and monochromatism.
<Mandrancid> _MMA_ : i must convert all resolution, you must wait  a moment..
<darkmatter> troy_s: well. no argument. but still less hideous than ubuntu's defaults
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: No problem. Ill be around.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Arguably they are one and the same now -- there is nothing compelling about any of those key three -- and their market shares reflect that.
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> darkmatter: It is especially relevant at this point because Ubuntu is very clearly an option for average desktop users in many respects.
<darkmatter> troy_s: aye. same applies to suse and fedora (simplify --> mainstream effect). I say all the artists involved in FOSS (the good ones) should just stage a coup ;)
<andreasn> hm, what's the discussion?
<darkmatter> andreasn: ugly uber conservative drab art n design
<andreasn> ok
<Mandrancid> _MMA_ done
<_MMA_> ok
<troy_s> darkmatter: The default snoring single colour tone with no emotional connection is byproduct of completely misplaced belief structures.  Hell... even Apple added colour to their default desktop (as well as worked around a motif this time etc.)
<darkmatter> troy_s: there is one thing that drives me nuts even more than the drab themes/engine... desktop background. make it art. I dont care if its a well composed photo or a painting. but DAMNIT! no more blurry "wtf is that", aqua=die, so on and soforth
<troy_s> darkmatter: Yes, again the uberconservativism.  Photos can be a step up, but in many respects they tend to end up being musak.
<andreasn> darkmatter: did you file a bug regarding nautilus borders yet? I'm about to file one if not. Just wanted to check so I don't do a duplicate.
<darkmatter> andreasn: no. not yet (havent even found the disc with my patch :/)
<darkmatter> have a ball :)
<troy_s> darkmatter: It seems that people who 'choose' desktop design patterns enjoy the musak.  Metallica, U2, Radiohead all have made millions and ended up with a pretty significant audience.  At no point did they ever make musak-equivalent musical decisions.
<darkmatter> troy_s: yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: Did you know that in the early days of record albums, all albums looked the same?
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: It is a very interesting comparison to computing environments (well aside from people only TWO albums really in our world).
<troy_s> "seeing"
<troy_s> lol
<darkmatter> troy_s: I'n not really big on a lot of the kde4 art (to much influence from vista/mac), but even a half assed attempt at an identity is better than non
<darkmatter> troy_s: lol. yeah
 * _MMA_ can't wait to see what theme troy_s and darkmatter cook up.
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: I got the email. Im looking now.
<Mandrancid> _MMA_: Ok...
<_MMA_> Mandrancid: That looks good. Maybe subtile shadows in places but the folders look good.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Don't be knocking on my door.  I do that thanks.
<_MMA_> If we get the go ahead Im sure the ideas will come flying. :)
<_MMA_> troy_s: ?
<_MMA_> Ok. I have no clue what you mean by that vague comment.
<Mandrancid> _MMA_: yes..
<andreasn> darkmatter: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499361
<ubotu> Gnome bug 499361 in Sidebar "No borders on the sidebar (and file window)" [Trivial,Unconfirmed]
<andreasn> darkmatter: should I add you as cc?
<darkmatter> troy_s: thats why I always had a love for beos back in the day. not because it was "the greatest thing since spilt milk" or any such nonsense, but because it actually had an *identity* that made it stand out from the crowd
<darkmatter> andreasn: sure
<andreasn> darkmatter: e-mail?
<darkmatter> darkmatter333@gmail.com
<troy_s> _MMA_: It was a 'don't pull out the 'go do something' argument' statement.  I do and I try.  Further still, there is a lot to be said for trying to track down and discuss the actual _why_ things might be wrong.  Not all of it is 100% given knowledge.
<troy_s> _MMA_: So :P
<andreasn> darkmatter: hm, match failed? is that your bugzilla account e-mail?
<_MMA_> troy_s: No. It was actually genuine and I should have worded it differently.
<darkmatter> oh crap. lol. forgot to register >_> 1 sec
<_MMA_> troy_s: Im not in that kinda mood ATM but I can go of on that tangent if you like. ;)
<darkmatter> andreasn: try again
<andreasn> there
<darkmatter> :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: LOL.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Any nibbles on uS's pattern?
<troy_s> _MMA_: Or more of they 'I think everything should be glossy because it was all the rage in 1981.'
<troy_s> _MMA_: What are you playing with for backgrounds of late?
<darkmatter> troy_s: or maybe switch the palette to bl00 and beige because it workd sooo well for xp :O
<_MMA_> troy_s: Well I just sent a email to the list putting it on the back burner because like always people talk about helping but nobody has.
<darkmatter> troy_s: because we all know how much you love the blue XD
<_MMA_> Its proving too much for me to handle along with everything else. I have some backgrounds for what Im gonna do now. Pictures.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Grr that angers me.
 * Mandrancid away
<_MMA_> Me too. What else can I do?
<troy_s> _MMA_:  Grr.
<_MMA_> Lots of talk but no _real_ help. Just lipservice.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I need to try and get some of the other ends tied up...
<troy_s> _MMA_: I have this bloody animatic teaser trailer that is sucking up _all_ of my time (as well as that bloody music video).
<troy_s> _MMA_: Not to mention the time sunk into Mythbuntu's now naught campaign.
<_MMA_> I also once dreamed of a theme with sliders that looked like faders on a sound board but we know what happened with that.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Not quite, but I can imagine.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I know _Toma_ was working on some stuff at some point.  He was asking about how to get the distressed look etc.
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanarts/380319297/
<darkmatter> <_MMA_> I also once dreamed of a theme with sliders that looked like faders on a sound board but we know what happened with that. <-- yeah. its sitting on a cd somewhere's 3/4 finished because shit happens when you get rushed to the hospital :)
<_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. Some walls but he wasnt generating alot. I think he has other things to do.
<_MMA_> darkmatter: And then you never got back to me did you? I left you messages and everything. I can only ask so much.
<troy_s> darkmatter: How is your thing-that-shall-remain-nameless of late?
<_MMA_> But really, I ain't sore. You guys are big boys and can do what you want. I'll do what I have to.
<troy_s> _MMA_: On a side note, have you tried 'glest'.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Yep. 'tis fun.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Pretty tight delivery too.
<_MMA_> I havnt had time to get through it but Ive heard its pretty short.
<_MMA_> But yeah. It looks good and was fun to play.
<troy_s> yeah... i was rather impressed with their presence.  it is pretty tight (but seems to err on the 'we make things small like enlightenment' look for everything lol)
<darkmatter> _MMA_: well. considering when I got back from sick-time and logged on irc I no longer had access to -dev it seemed rather pointless. just like discussing now is rather pointless :)
<darkmatter> troy_s: glest rocks.
<darkmatter> to bad there's only two factions and once you beat or get beaten the games pretty much done
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Oh excuses. I'm still in other channels with you. But yeah..
<troy_s> _MMA_: (Popping in and out of the keyboard here) Window deco -- have you tried your carbon fiber / diagonal lines repeating?
<_MMA_> No, because I'm only really good with tinkering with XML. I dont know how to do something pixmap.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Hrm... I have some cututs (and a script if you design the window in one of my templates)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Would that help you?
<_MMA_> Ill look at it for sure but really Im so disheartened its gonna take real help from others to work on the DIY stuff again.
<_MMA_> I sent you a PM with the Alt stuff I was looking at.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Great.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I have a metacity session pending as I need to try some experiments that kwwii and I have chundered about.
<_MMA_> k
<troy_s> _MMA_: When I sit down to do that eventually, I'll try to hammer out the diagonal lines look
<troy_s> (which I could easily see becoming a 'trend')
<troy_s> the repeating lines with gradients that O2's Pineherioioio likes so much could very well stick as a trend.  Although the blue wallpaper that the contest results showed is horribly composed, the 'essence' of the look could easily become a trend.
<darkmatter> troy_s: they are a trend in windowblinds ;O
<troy_s> darkmatter: Hrm... the repeating lines?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Interesting... links?
<darkmatter> troy_s: carbon-fiber-ish? if so yeah. hold for a sec. I'll pop on devart
<ddddd> why can i not reach art.ubuntu.com ?
<_MMA_> I think its being worked on.
<ddddd> you think or are you sure ? because the xubuntu/artwork wiki links to it but dead links aren't very useful
<_MMA_> They will be useful once the site is up. Thats the plan as I recall.
<ddddd> ok thanks a lot
<troy_s> ddddd: Dead links are a byproduct of 'construction'.
<darkmatter> troy_s: meh. devart search feature suck. but if you wanna piss around theres a fairly large amount of carbon fibrous themes on the various customization sites.
<kwwii> art.ubuntu.com is in code review
<troy_s> ddddd: They will be dead after upgrade
<troy_s> ddddd: As a new system is going into place
<kwwii> so once the security guys check it out it will be up
<kwwii> but all those links will no longer work, they point to the old site
<troy_s> (probably to be neglected like the last three times people have insisted on getting it up)
<ddddd> this site will be replaced ?
<ddddd> what is the new site url ?
<kwwii> ddddd: it is coming back, yes but in a different form
<kwwii> it is not up yet
<kwwii> and with that, I am off to the bar - have a nice evening everyone
<ddddd> but the url will be the same /
<ddddd> ?
<kwwii> yes it will still be at art.ubuntu.com
<kwwii> but all the old pages will be gone, we are starting fresh
<kwwii> for what it is worth
<kwwii> anyway, I am out of here
<ddddd> ok so i can leave the url in the wiki thanks
<troy_s> ddddd: its a wiki
<troy_s> ddddd: do what you want
<troy_s> ddddd: to be fair, that site has _never_ been a good source of work.
<troy_s> ddddd: arguably gnome-look, kde-look, and compiz-look have far more selection
<TheSheep> sigh
<TheSheep> why people can't keep old url actual after upgrad
<TheSheep> ee
<troy_s> TheSheep: You mean links?
<TheSheep> ever heard of redirects and rewrites? :/
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yuck.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Give google a week and it updates.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Talk about legacy links, and for what?
<TheSheep> troy_s: what about all the sites that linked there?
<troy_s> TheSheep: It was mostly junk.
<TheSheep> troy_s: *everything* is mostly junk
<troy_s> TheSheep: Well themes on gnome-look go up and down, I can't expect any dynamic site to keep links.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It seems like a waste of time.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's two lines in apache config
<TheSheep> troy_s: or any other web server
<darkmatter> troy_s: another thing I can see becoming trendy (been thinking of it since I want to move away from the window analogy with my current project) is *basically* a picture frame
<TheSheep> troy_s: just give a '301 Moved permanently' response
<ddddd> yes it is very strange not to get a message like this site is under heavy construction
<troy_s> ddddd: Well it _is_ free software -- feel free to step up and help out Nuzum.
<troy_s> (although granted, a good portion of Ubuntu has process before one can 'help out' -- and for good reason)
<ddddd> the people who are able to setup art.ubunntu.com are skilled enough to make an error/info/redirect page !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<troy_s> darkmatter: The only serious and significant effect / impact that someone can creat 'trend' out of is looks though.  Those repeating lines have a very 'neato' feel to them if applied to an interesting concept.
<troy_s> ddddd: Will you settle down.  It isn't like art.ubuntu.com was a well used site.
<troy_s> ddddd: it had a few hits (probably googling ubuntu but I don't have analytics for it)
<troy_s> ddddd: It is really a moot point.
<ddddd> because of bad advertisement on ubuntu.com ? or because there are better sites already up then better stop the site and focus on those
<troy_s> ddddd: Because Ubuntu is _huge_
<troy_s> ddddd: And there are a lot of 'tendrils' that a few people need to keep up on.  Nuzum is a VERY busy guy and has better things to worry about than _that_ low level detail.  That said, a polite email to him would probably have resulted in such a page.  Of course, if you do a little Googling, you might find out how _who_ was responsible for the site, _who_ can implement the change, and _how_ to contact that person.
<troy_s> ddddd: And yes, for all of those reasons it is a moot point.  art.ubuntu.com gets hits PURELY because it has Ubuntu in it.  Not because it was terribly useful.
<troy_s> ddddd: This is all said _not_ to poo poo on your parade.  A polite letter to Nuzum and you might get a redirect.  You might not -- he is a helluva busy guy.
<troy_s> ddddd: Honestly though, what good is a redirect when the site has very little of worth on it to begin with?
<dddd1> (06:18:10 PM) ddddd: and the development of default artwork for the distribution release takes already place on the wiki was my last message connection broken :-(
<dddd1> troy_s: want discuss it further ?
<troy_s> dddd1: Nothing to discuss.
<troy_s> dddd1: Design is a _BIG_ deal, and is overseen / steered / ruled upon / by elements outside our control.
<troy_s> dddd1: The design of the default look is not even really anything that could be considered a process or otherwise.  It is a decree based upon last minute decisions.
<_MMA_> Um... WTF? http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/11/mpaa_university_toolkit_opens_1.html?nav=rss_blog
<_MMA_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2007-November/004755.html
<dddd1> i understand it is ok but i can't see a good reason for art.ubuntu.com to exist because non default artwork goes to http://www.gnome-look.org/ and at this moment all development ideas and stuff for default artwork goes to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork?action=show&redirect=ArtworkTeam
<_MMA_> dddd1: Im sorry but you're a little late on this topic. I believe its been discussed at length on the ML and here.
<_MMA_> Users wanted art.ubuntu.com.
<dddd1> it is ok
<dddd1> 1 last question is this site only for ubuntu or also for kubuntu xubuntu and so on ?
<_MMA_> I would figure for all.
<dddd1> ok
<_MMA_> I didnt get an impression otherwise.
<dddd1> i ll wait and see when the site is up and running
<troy_s> dddd1: It is intended for all, however it inevitably ends up neglected.  This is the third or fourth incarnation.
<troy_s> dddd1: I have long been a proponent of abandoning it.  It is 1) more effort (maintain with folks who are already busy) 2) Ends up with little to no content other than the setup 3) adds little use other than fracturing the already fractured design / look / theme site cascade.
<troy_s> but alas, it is not my decision.
<troy_s> it seems the people with the wonderful ideas of keeping it in motion like to push status quo.
<TheSheep> reinventing the wheel, sigh
<TheSheep> troy_s: isn't it mostly the "we want our own" attitude?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yep!
<troy_s> TheSheep: I actually thought Mark's blog comment on 'secret is merging' is really really astute.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would love to see the core of K and G put their genius minds together and come up with something spectacular and 'center'
<TheSheep> I remember when everyone tried to 'make their own wiki' and everyone tried to make it an encyclopedia
<troy_s> TheSheep: I also firmly believe that diversity is a keystone of health, but certain things aren't that different that they would require a full 'let's do this solo' approach.
<TheSheep> fortunately most of them died off
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> Yeah they all did.
<troy_s> It happens.  Nevermind the Google clones, the Digg clones, the Next-Hot-Item clone as though clones (read lack of 'new' or 'innovation') EVER work once there is an exemplary site.
<dddd1> there is an option to reach more people about this kind of decisions there are several teams on launchpad with members like "ubuntu artwork team" "ubuntu users" "xubuntu artwork team" "xubuntu users" etc. and there is also a poll option on launchpad you see the potentional of this ?
<TheSheep> it's always like that: one brilliant idea, followed by lots of forks exploring the problem space with, followed by few workable designs surviving
<troy_s> (or anything for that matter -- hell -- did glossy ever work for any design after Apple's?)
<troy_s> dddd1: A lot of the 'decisions' you mention are nothing of the sort.
<TheSheep> dddd1: what has poll to design? %)
<troy_s> dddd1: That's the problem.  People misconstrue Free Software as democracy.  It is a very real _working_ democracy -- there are parties and power interest groups.  Democracy works by involvement and politicking with those parties.
<dddd1> no more about decisions on the infrastructure like what they use now and if they want to change
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's doocracy
<troy_s> dddd1: There is only one 'infrastructure' that powers all of Ubuntu.  That is Launchpad / Bazaar.
<troy_s> TheSheep: There is a good deal of democracy in terms of political camps and alignments.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not strictly about 'voting' of course.
<TheSheep> troy_s: "vote with your code" I say :D
<troy_s> dddd1: What 'outside' folks fail to understand is that the devs don't bother with forums and they don't care.  Launchpad / Bazaar is the driving force.
<dddd1> yes and you can use poll with good questions to get answers from more people then on the mailing list
<TheSheep> dddd1: abundance of answers is a problem rather than solution
<troy_s> dddd1: And well, as anyone who has ever tried to track things would quickly realize, it is a nightmare reading forums, keeping up on mailing lists, keeping up on realtimezone IRC, keeping up on outside news, AND trying to factor in career, family, and normalcy.
<troy_s> dddd1: Who cares about polls?
<troy_s> dddd1: In the end, Free Software is driven by users.
<troy_s> dddd1: Users who also happen to create the bits they use.
<troy_s> dddd1: Everyone else simply doesn't matter in the scope.
<dddd1> i mean to use polls to get info for directions to go not let the poll make the decision
<TheSheep> o/~ "join our stall, make software, you'll be free" o/~
<troy_s> dddd1: Who cares about directions?  Anyone who cares learns how to do it themselves.
<troy_s> dddd1: WORSE
<troy_s> dddd1: Is you have people giving 'directions' with no experience, credibility, merit, nor education.
<troy_s> dddd1: Even someone with the inability to code might be able to create credible documentation / design blueprints / animatic mocks / etc.
<troy_s> dddd1: And if they don't have the care or desire to put in that effort, then should they really have a say in anything?
<dddd1> that is wrong thinking because you can choose the teams related with it --- time to eat --
<troy_s> dddd1: It works _wonderfully_ now.  The major problem with Ubuntu has very little with the technological development.
<troy_s> dddd1: It is the fastest growing distribution.  It has worldwide support.  It has a decent degree of momentum and uptake.
<troy_s> dddd1: Arguably where it is weakest is in the outward presentations and other apparently 'simple trivial' things such as marketing emotional connection, branding, etc.
<TheSheep> marketing :(
<TheSheep> marketing is the science of making happy people miserable
<dddd1> mark -e thing
<TheSheep> then again, one cannot live without it
<dddd1> marketing is for bussiness not for me
<TheSheep> dddd1: no, it's everywhere
<TheSheep> dddd1: those polls you mention are marketing too
<dddd1> uh oh
<troy_s> TheSheep: Sad you feel that way.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Marketing is tightly bound to design -- it is the entire process of making people happy and creating an emotional attachment to a product / output.
<TheSheep> troy_s: there is also markeying of already designed products
<troy_s> dddd1: Marketing / design is for everyone.  Apple uses marketing twofold -- they generate new users AND they re-invigorate brand loyalty / attachment / emotional connections with their exisiting users.
<dddd1> talking about democracy and power all my dutch xubuntu documentation is deleted didnt fit in the view of the documentation team
<troy_s> TheSheep: Sure... but even Free Software 'marketing' (closer to politicking) does this to generate the 'next version'.
<troy_s> dddd1: It happens.
<troy_s> dddd1: The 'marketing' team is at least as broken as the artwork team in terms of 'fitting in'.
<dddd1> i do not care about it they get old questions in the forum agan
<troy_s> dddd1: Worse, there is a high ranking person who is a member of the 'marketing' team.
<TheSheep> troy_s: both marketing and design have the 'information gathering' and 'requirement research' phases, that's why they are similar
<dddd1> i focus now on the english part of xubuntu
<TheSheep> troy_s: you can design for marketing, of course
<troy_s> TheSheep: Worse is when Marketing and Design are two different 'things' -- the presentation is completely fractured.  I would give props to Apple for unifying that end of things.
<troy_s> TheSheep: In fact, as much as I have an ethical problem with Apple (and a huge awful hate of all wet floor reflections ;) ), they do _much_ very well.
<troy_s> dddd1: Your best bet is to make alliances with the people who matter, if that is your cup of tea.
<TheSheep> troy_s: if 'selling' your product is one of the design goals, then you need to design with marketing. if there are other goals, you need to design with those other processes in mind.
<troy_s> dddd1: The heavy hitters -- the folks who make the changes -- can have a good impact.
<dddd1> it is like old closed unix with a design
<troy_s> TheSheep: For us, 'selling' (as much as it is free) is vital in my eyes.  We need new users / popularity / etc. for survival.  Look at AWN for example.
<dddd1> i now first ask then write :)
<TheSheep> dddd1: I wouldn't call unix 'closed', it was viewed as anarchistic at the time it was created. extremely so.
<TheSheep> troy_s: to resolve the bug #1, eh? :)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<troy_s> TheSheep: Marketing / Design / etc is now the _sole_ glaring hole in Free Software.  The developers are top shelf.  The application design architecture is AWFUL (layered approach to accommodate different user levels might be more versatile) and the ability of the 'designers' is ...
<dddd1> unix is closed gnu+linux is open isnt it
<troy_s> dddd1: Unix is a trademarked term.
<dddd1> ok
<troy_s> dddd1: You can't use it in public without paying for it (as Apple did)
<TheSheep> troy_s: it become a 'standard' much much later
<TheSheep> dddd1: 'closed' in what sense? it's based on open standards and is extensible
<dddd1> ok i have understand it wrong then
<troy_s> As of 2007, the owner of the trademark UNIXÂ® is The Open Group, an industry standards consortium. Only systems fully compliant with and certified to the Single UNIX Specification qualify as "UNIXÂ®" (others are called "Unix system-like" or "Unix-like").
<troy_s> Wikipedia
<troy_s> dddd1: It _was_ completely owned and patented by AT&T
<_MMA_> I think Apple just got that cert actually.
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's politics and marketing
<dddd1> so i was right but it changed
<_MMA_> (off topic)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah I don't know.  I seem to remember reading about them paying for it, but that may have been misinformation.
<dddd1> this is offtopic yes but it is not bizzy
<troy_s> _MMA_: I am unaware of the politcal structure of 'the open group' and even their name scares me.
<_MMA_> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9048102
<troy_s> Their members include a range of IT buyers and vendors as well as government agencies, for example Capgemini, Fujitsu, Hitachi, HP, IBM, NEC, US Department of Defense, NASA and others.
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: That's what I was afraid of.
<TheSheep> troy_s: no MPIAA? ewww ;)
<troy_s> It isn't a group at all, it is a consortium of commercial entities.
<troy_s> Which is probably the reason that having Unix circle c by your name is nothing more than a rubber stamp of political alignment.
<TheSheep> troy_s: there are laws about using unix-compliant systems in government and so on
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's why they tried so hard with Windows NT
<troy_s> TheSheep: IIRC a significant US military branch uses a custom security heavy version of Linux.  So that would extend to 'unix-like' systems.  Probably POSIX.
<TheSheep> troy_s: linux is not posix
<TheSheep> troy_s: for the same reason why it's not unix
<TheSheep> actaully isn't it the same?
<troy_s> TheSheep: No
<troy_s> TheSheep: Unix(C) is supposed to be Posix++.
<TheSheep> well, linux is neither
<dddd1> posix cost money isnt it
<dddd1> the certificate
<TheSheep> yeah, MS threw a lot to make the standards that Windows NT didn't comply with "optional" in POSIX :)
<dddd1> i read about on a bash howto and ifo page
<TheSheep> every time a working group didn't agree to accept it, it was dissolved immediately and formed anew, without the members who disagree
<TheSheep> it was just beautiful
<dddd1> is there a seperate gobuntu artwork wiki or will it be created by the ubuntu artwork team ?
<dddd1> and goes non default gobuntu artwork also to the new art.ubuntu website ?
<dddd1> and is there also a launchpad gobuntu artwork team now or in the future ?
<nothlit> the NSA doesn't comment on their selinux use or lack of, all the acknowledge is creating it
<nothlit> troy_s: btw http://www.vischeck.com/vischeck/vischeckImage.php
<nothlit> troy_s: do you have the blender links i gave you for nox, the mats and stuff? i can't find where i stuffed them
<troy_s> nothlit: Somehwere in my mail yes.
<troy_s> nothlit: That's a handy little thing.  Not of relevance for most of my work as I am unfortunately developing for average sighted folks
<nothlit> troy_s: email? i meant the example links i gave in -devel
<troy_s> nothlit: Yeah I think I have the bulk of your samples in email and the links were in a tomboy arch.
<Viper550> hey
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-25
<kwwii> as for marketing and design being two different things, we are trying to unify that by bringing in the marketing people into th design discussion before they present their new brief to the marketing company, they are totally inline with having the marketing stuff a part of the total design
<kwwii> anyway
<kwwii> time for bed
<troy_s> kwwii: That's a plus one.
<DanaG> Dang, why is it that I can never seem to find a theme that I like enough to keep using for a long period of time?
<ddddd> DanaG: because your brains know there are more available ;-)
<DanaG> At least when in Windows, I used Eminence (a Windowblinds theme) for months, until I realized that light text on dark backgrounds, with cleartype, == eyestrain.
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> where is _MMA_ when I need him
<troy_s> greets kwwii
<troy_s> kwwii: how goes the fight?
<kwwii> troy_s: good, spent the evening singing with a new band, very nice evening indeed
<kwwii> and you?
<kwwii> nice answer to the green theme idea on the list, btw
<troy_s> kwwii: I feared it would be received wrong.  I was not even going to bother to reply at all, but I am starting to learn more and more why we are stuck in this state we are in.
<troy_s> kwwii: So thanks for the prop.
<kwwii> considering the unrealistic idea of changing everything to green I think you repsonded very well
<kwwii> man, my ears are still ringing from the guitar amp...freaky feeling chatting while being deaf, very lonely
<troy_s> kwwii: I asked myself even if we DID change to green, would that be 'better'?
<troy_s> kwwii: It is the old argument of blue really, in a different suit.
<kwwii> moving to a theme as suggested would be, again, monochromatic, and again, gloss
<troy_s> kwwii: Although I will give credit and say that in general, MOST people aren't trying to push that foolish agenda anymore.
<kwwii> nothing new there, just a remix of the same bad ideas
<troy_s> spot on.
<troy_s> absolutely.
<troy_s> somehow, i _do_ think the audience is maturing / learning... albeit slowly.
<kwwii> yeah, slowly but surely we just might achieve something
<kwwii> man, I am not used to us getting along so well :p
<kwwii> eventually it had to happen I guess
<kwwii> :-)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> well, my golden rule has always been to ignore the relationship portion of things and focus on the work.  if you start making judgements based on relationships and not simply evaluating work, you are in trouble.
<troy_s> that's the road of politic.
<kwwii> yeah, very ture
<kwwii> erm, true
<troy_s> perhaps one day there will be a very good 'crew' of people who argue and get passionately angry with each other over the _work_ as opposed to the politick.
<kwwii> then we might, just might, actually get ahead instead of just rehashing old ideas
<troy_s> that will come.  arguably of course, there will be mistakes made too.  that is predicated on the rather large and very real issue as to whether at some point
<troy_s> the 'status quo' is let go of.
<troy_s> (including the silencing / ignoring of the vocal minorities who still push the status quo)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-17
<zniavre> hello
<thorwil> any world-class creatives here? http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_LCD/
 * _MMA_ wonders if this was/is the same position supposedly filled by the guy from Orange?
<_MMA_> kwwii ^^^ ?
<thorwil> _MMA_: "Reports To:  Creative Strategy Lead" ...
<_MMA_> Isn't that Ken's job? :P
<thorwil> _MMA_: no, he's platform lead, or something
 * _MMA_ notes that Corel's "Font Navigator" (a great font tool I used in windows and with there was a *nix equiv) works just fine in WINE.
<_MMA_> s/with/wish
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, it turns out that the person hired has less to do with art and design than expected, so we now need to hire someone for that
<_MMA_> Oh wow.
<thorwil> kwwii: seems odd to have someone for "strategy" and still wanting someone for "concepts", not just straight on graphic design
<_MMA_> Money to burn. :P
<kwwii> lol
<_MMA_> (kidding)
<thorwil> wtf? https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines
<thorwil> poor guys can't just stick a K in front :)
<_MMA_> :P
 * thorwil starts to fill in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Pieces
<dashua__> http://www.flickr.com/photos/11398192@N02/3009195295/sizes/o/
<dashua__> Is it just me, or does that window decorator look like an insanely popular Ubuntu theme called "Dust"? =/
 * _MMA_ points at a new FOSS manual for Inkscape. http://en.flossmanuals.net/Inkscape
<_MMA_> Nice downloadable .pdf to print out.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-18
<robsta> hiya
<robsta> thorwil: saw your forwarded the call for css themers, thanks
<thorwil> np
<thorwil> kwwii: did you already have a chance to play with the css-engine?
<thorwil> kwwii: the release schedule seems to lack an explanation of the ArtworkDeadlines
<kwwii> thorwil: I have looked into it a bit, yes...very interesting stuff
<kwwii> thorwil: hoping to get more time to play with it this week
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, in the meantime I think we can change the deadlines
<thorwil> kwwii: after a second look, i think the meaning is clear from the other labels applied to the dates
<thorwil> kwwii: change? i just started writing a call for action, quoting those dates :)
<kwwii> hehe, isn't that the natural time to change something, then? :p
<thorwil> kwwii: you mean, i just randomize them a bit and you will pick it up? ;)
<kwwii> oh, we wouldn't want to coordinate it as such ;-)
<thorwil> no Jaunty in Incoming?
<kwwii> lol, yeah...let's just skip this one
<kwwii> wait it out and see what happens :p
<kwwii> just kidding
<kwwii> naturally we need deadlines
<kwwii> and I guess they are placed ok now
<thorwil> for this email, the exact dates are not that important. just the idea that we do not have all the time in the world is :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-19
<DanaG> really random ibex-related thing: http://hollywest.typepad.com/blog/WindowsLiveWriter/ibex_thumb.jpg
<DanaG> =Ã¾
<thorwil> hi!
<robsta> hey thorwil
<thorwil> robsta: there's a reply to the ubuntu-art digest that would be best answered by you ;)
<robsta> the one about performance?
 * thorwil supports the disabling of digest mode, because it messes things up for everyone lese
<thorwil> robsta: the one with "Is this engine available in ubuntu and how does it stack up again Murrine or Clearlooks"
<robsta> i can answer here if you like
<thorwil> sure, i will copy and reply, then :)
<robsta> murrine and clearlooks are mature theme engines, gce is an experiment
<robsta> it will probably take a few more months to reach beta quality, or more if i can't invest so much time anymore at some point
<robsta> gce is completely unoptimised, if you use lots of pixmaps performance will be bad
<robsta> around v0.5 i'll start to look into optimisations
<thorwil> ok, thanks
<robsta> i'm really just looking to get one or two themes done now, to get testing and feedback
<robsta> it's not for public consumption yet
<thorwil> well, i hope the ubuntu-art list isn't too public :)
<robsta> oh, i was referring to the comments on Jono Bacon's entry
<thorwil> i'm not aware of that one
<robsta> thorwil: fyi, i'll work on this theme soon: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyfitz/2706976226/
<prguy85> hey
<prguy85> im helping dilomo with the new wave theme but
<prguy85> we are having problems with firefox as usual
<prguy85> all we want is firefox to display white font
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-20
<prguy85> anyone?
<_MMA_> prguy85: Ask on the mailing list.
<prguy85> yea about to
<prguy85> its just weird that dust is a dark theme and can display white font on firefox
<prguy85> but new wave can't
<prguy85> i was speaking to dilomo and he said the only workaround is making a firefox theme or using userchrome.css
<prguy85> what makes it different
<prguy85> that dust is murrine and new wave is pixmap?
<thorwil> kwwii: hmm, you rock star card sits a bit low on the new HoF
<kwwii> thorwil: hrm, I hadn't seen it yet
<thorwil> http://hall-of-fame.ubuntu.com/ for the rest
<thorwil> kwwii: also strikes me as being rather dark in that context
<kwwii> wow, the whole page looks messed up
<kwwii> the padding is horrible
<kwwii> and it seems they did not use the final version
<kwwii> :p
<thorwil> well, it looks like an ubuntu website ;>
<kwwii> hehe, I guess they cannot blame me for that :p
<thorwil> kwwii: go and make them suffer for daring to use an old version and not putting it way up on the page! :)
<kwwii> I will...notice the crappy corners ;-)
<kwwii> I'll make sure they change it at least
<Glacies> helo
<Glacies> can somebody tell me how can i set the color of prelighted scroller int murrine gtk engine?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-22
<thorwil> finally decided to just announce my ibex horns wallpaper on the forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=990040
<_MMA_> :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: isn't it amazing how succesful my Call to Action was? :}
<_MMA_> Indeed. :P
<thorwil> _MMA_: in light of the art-team mission statement, the conclusion should be to close the list/team ;)
<_MMA_> It's been my major issue. Call it pessimistic but very few people want to work as a "team" around here. It's always the same few doing anything. :(
<thorwil> strange how coders seem to have way more luck in finding comrades
<thorwil> maybe not so strange, just a numbers thing
<_MMA_> Sure. Or it's just harder to be artistically creative.
<_MMA_> Sebastian has been doing alot on Breathe. He's getting things into the template and I'll be uploading as soon as he's done.
<_MMA_> Last few emails have had little to no response so I'm just gonna start moving unilaterally.
<_MMA_> Ill biab (food)
<thorwil> as things are, work-on-a-breathe-icon always loses out to something else based on fun and payback considerations
<Nece228> Hey sir Cimi
<Nece228> Cimi: can i apply murrine rgba patch in ubuntu 8.10?
<Cimi> Nece228, what do you mean?
<Nece228> Cimi: well ive seen people who use murrine rgba
<Cimi> I don't raccomend using it
<Nece228> Cimi: sure ill not use it, but i want to try it
<Cimi> take a look at the rgba section of the murrine website
<Cimi> apply plugins/patches
<Cimi> be sure your video card supports blur with compiz or it will be totally unusable
<Nece228> Cimi: i downloaded patch for epiphany
<Cimi> make sure your theme has the rgba = TRUE option enabled in the gtkrc
<Nece228> Cimi: but in /home/simas/.gnome2/epiphany theres no extensions folder
<Cimi> create the folder
<Nece228> Cimi: so i created folder, copied files but i dont see anythink changed
<Nece228> Cimi: oh, thanks, ill take a look
<Nece228> Cimi: i enabled it but nothink changed
<Cimi> are you running compiz?
<Cimi> and restart eiphany
<Nece228> Cimi: yeah
<Nece228> Cimi: restarting many times
<Nece228> Cimi: /home/simas/.gnome2/epiphany/extentions
<Nece228> is my path correct?
<Cimi> extensions
<Nece228> Cimi: nothink changed
<Nece228> Cimi: whatever ill experiment tommorow, im very busy
<Nece228> Cimi: bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-23
 * thorwil adds first a first image to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Mood
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-16
<nemo> wow. not a single message between my asking a question 8h ago and now :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-17
<coz_> good day all
<mac_v> kwwii: is there going to be a session regarding humanity? , if so kindly ping me :)
<kwwii> mac_v: yeah, I just subscribed you to a couple of blueprints, once I know when they are I will let you know asap
<mac_v> kwwii: yeah , i noticed the subscriptions... was just wondering about the sessions... its just that timezones suck ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: I cannot control when they schedule it but I can try to help if possible
<mac_v>  yeah.. sure no worries... I understand , i noticed all the scheduling/resheduling  ... ,  i just wanted to know if you had any info yet...
<kwwii> mac_v: I am currently trying to poke someonehard enough to get this stuff planned
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-18
<farrukh> ?
<farrukh> anyone live?
<darkmatter> no, we're all dead and residing in the GNUlysian Fields :P
<wers> where can I find the default ubuntu wallpapers?
<wers> i mean, arent they supposed to be under /usr/share/wallpapers or something?
<zniavre_> usr/share/background no?
<zniavre_> backgrounds *
<kwwii> mac_v: all of the art related sessions are planned for Thursday
<mac_v> kwwii: cool  , thanks :)
<kwwii> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-l/2009-11-19/
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-19
<mac_v> lol , half the deviantart collections are pron o.0
<darkmatter> mac_v: half the deviantart collections suck. hence why I rarely visit deviant art these days
<mac_v> darkmatter: yeah , i havent been there for long too , I was following a link posted in the artwork mailing list to collections section
<darkmatter> ahh
<mac_v> andreasn: can you join the UDS discussion regarding the -symbolic icons?
<andreasn> sure, how?
<ckontros> Is the "Ubuntu Artwork" group on Flickr an invite-only public group?
<DanRabbit> iainfarrell: hello :)
<iainfarrell> DanRabbit: Howdy pardner!
<ckontros> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1330937
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-20
<darkmatter> tooltip: yes? no? why?. seems off to me for some reason. require input  http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6217/screenshotji.png
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-21
<darkmatter> mac_v: rawr! http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4121645414/
 * mac_v checks it out :)
<mac_v> darkmatter: meh.. i like my version better ...   ;)
<mac_v> just a sec
<darkmatter> :P
 * mac_v kicks his dropbox
<darkmatter> mac_v: just using the default g-i-t single-canvas/sonar status icons. but hey. at least they're clear/concise :P http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4120955645/
<mac_v> ;)
<mac_v> darkmatter: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/userstatus.png
<darkmatter> cute :)
<mac_v> i meant these^ , not the default in karmic ;)
<mac_v> darkmatter: is there a pidgin bug report? or something? if the pidgin folks like it i could submit it ;)
<darkmatter> I'm just using g-i-ts user-idle fore pidgins extended away. since it's the 'closest' you can get with pidgins dumb statuses :P
<darkmatter> mac_v: not a clue. I'm just doing this because I hate inconsistent icons
<mac_v> ;)
<mac_v> darkmatter: btw , what is the folder in the right corner? desktop?
<darkmatter> mac_v: I rebrand/patch/rebuild half my system regularly ;D
<darkmatter> mac_v: yup. I'm running Sonar 11.2.5 on openSUSE 11.0
<mac_v> darkmatter: lol.. luckily half my system doesnt bug me ;)   else I'd be doing the same
<mac_v> darkmatter: hmm , i like the icons for the desktop... i never liked the desktop icon showing a desktop ;p
<darkmatter> folder are xdg for the most part now, but some icons still display 'old' styles (even in the latest gnome), so the workaround was symlinking the desktop image to that of the new folders, so at least its consistent between applications.
<darkmatter> mac_v: aye. it should be a display with an appropriate panel/icon layout but without its pedistal
<darkmatter> mac_v: but the folder is a refreshing change :P
<mac_v> yeah
<mac_v> darkmatter: like for panel 'show desktop'... the icon of a desktop makes sense... but for the folder of a desktop showing the desktop , was weird
<darkmatter> lol.. yeah
<darkmatter> but that's gnomes fault. apps are inconsistent to an extent. so when you make a theme designed to fit most apps consistently you end up with little buggery things like that
<darkmatter> mac_v: I'll be killing that. I have an 'aero-peek' like setup for showing the desktop. I just need to make a visual cue for the panel of some sort :P
<mac_v> darkmatter: hmm , i havent used the panel and the show desktop for a long time , but somehow cairo-dock shows a different icon for the show desktop and the desktop folder
<darkmatter> basically it's on a hot corner, I just havent removed the applet yet
<mac_v> darkmatter: how did you get aero-peak working?
<darkmatter> mac_v: still tweaking the setup. right now the windows are still minimizing at the end, but its the compiz desktop plugins
<darkmatter> I may switch it to a 'fly out' like OSX, but whatever. as long as it works
 * mac_v now sad that there wont be compiz in gnome 3 :(
<mac_v>  i use fly out too
<darkmatter> mac_v: I just have this thing as a designer that interactions should be discoverable. hotkeys are awesome, but not very accessible
 * mac_v agrees
<darkmatter> as in should have a gui level interface as some sort
<mac_v> darkmatter: they have a window switcher in gnome3 and it took me time to discover it! I purposefully didnt read the manual and it makes the using gnome3 even harder :/    i'v been meaning to send a mail to the mailing list , but something or the other just keeps me procrastinating ;p
<darkmatter> mac_v: yeah. that's why I keep bitching about how gnome-shell is an epic failure. if using an interface (or learning how to use it) doesn't come naturally then there is an issue with it :P
<darkmatter> users should NOT have to read manuals imo
<mac_v> UI needs to be like plug-n-play ;)
<darkmatter> mac_v: that's what I've been designing for three years. plug 'n' play ;D
<darkmatter> now I just need to do mockups. but that's going to wait until after I change OS versions
<darkmatter> I mean. I have mockups, but they're on paper. it's time to do 'real' ones
<mac_v> darkmatter: yeah.. yeah... i'v been hearing that for a long time now ;p
<mac_v> ;)
<darkmatter> mac_v: surprisingly sanity takes a long time to accomplish. believe it or not
<mac_v> darkmatter: true... basically why i havent written to the shell ML , is also the same sanity... i have no alternate idea which is better than the taskbar ;p
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> mac_v: I've even figured out the basic aesthetics too. which takes almost as long, since it in tern affects the designs themselves. but as far as ui and aethetics go its turning out ok. aesthetically it's meant to feel natural as opposed to manufactured, more akin to a printed page than 'oh look, I have a bazillion separators!'
<darkmatter> from the design end, its about a convergent ui metaphor, so the two basically go hand in hand
<mac_v> darkmatter: i think the compiz guys might be pretty pissed that gnome3 doesnt allow compiz... there were plans to make a compizDE too ... so when you get the mockups running , you could show contact the compiz guys too ;)
<mac_v> show/contact
<darkmatter> mac_v: example. hierarchical structure is over extended in most environments. one of the design elements is to abstract that structural concept, so less trees/clicking through folders, more linear categorization
<darkmatter> mac_v: hmmm... never thought of that :D
<darkmatter> mac_v: basic ui layout (subject to change after input on the mockups); toolbar (navigation (forward/back) shortcut/library 'shelf', search), then secondary bar (and not fat like in current ui's; home (as in the 'startpage' metaphor (though not web code, and specific to the app/center), breadcrumbs, other bits that may be needed) then content below
 * mac_v keeps banging... show me the mockups ;p  /me hates to read ;)
<darkmatter> there will be a user home (not the folder, but a starting point in the 'pad' or 'activity center' (havent thought of a name yet :P) that would display the users favorit crap (like favorit activities, tweets, recent stuff, update (as in software notification), etc. configurable of course
<darkmatter> the 'home' for the communication service(s) will show recent messaging (im/email/etc)
<mac_v> 'lobby' ;)
<darkmatter> mac_v: so basically summary 'panes' if you will for different bits of your daily 'puteing
<darkmatter> there will be a slab like thingy, but different, categories that when clicked will take you to the home/lobby/whatthehellever. but will also be able to display a list of bits (less like 'recent' items, more like favorite <whatever applies as a title to tha category>, a 'discover' feature where it makes sense as a metaphor, etc)
<darkmatter> just as a way of avoiding the need to drowse through stuff
<darkmatter> browse*
<darkmatter> plus it keeps a somewhat familiar workflow metaphor whilst allowing for a reasonable paradigm shift (thew shift being that this is tasks/activities, as opposed to a button labelled 'activities' that you launch apps from ;P)
<darkmatter> well, part of the shift
<mac_v> darkmatter: another irritating thing in gnome 3 is the user name :/  ... am i gonna forget my name?
<mac_v> ubuntu does that too !
<darkmatter> mac_v: at a more technical level, it's about a series of interconnected modular services with guis instead of everything being completely separate. like, for example. globally shared bookmarks/contacts/search and indexing. the 'internet' is a service as opposed to a browser (so basically, you could search the net through the library, and play back a youtube video in the 'player' gui, etc etc etc
<darkmatter> mac_v: ouch
<mac_v> a constant reminder of the user name on the panel! and what does it do :/
<mac_v> darkmatter: hehe , luckily ubuntu [indicator]doesnt support vertical panels , so for me it only displays the icon and the name gets cut ;)
<darkmatter> mac_v: silly. mine is a user pic, in a frame, with a status overlay, mouse over presents a 'selector' that shows status/session management if clicked. clicking the pic opens the menu/launchpad/slab/whateveritsname is
<mac_v> lol , yeah that was funny too! that would make sense when the setup is an office or multiuser environment..... but for a personal computer , it just redundant
<darkmatter> I think using a visual reference to the user makes sense. it's more of a personal touch (as this is personalized /humanized concept as opposed to computer centric. I'm puting the user and their daily do's before all else. plus it also 'fits' with the metaphor as it is used on the web
<darkmatter> or maybe have a 'home' icon as a metaphor in place of the picture. as long as it gives an 'I live here' feel as opposed to an 'I have to deal with this crap again *sigh*' feel :)
<mac_v> darkmatter: IMO ,it doesnt give a personal feel... its like having your name written on every page of a document
<darkmatter> ass the idea is to make the so called desktop personal and friendly
<mac_v> home icon is better ;)
<darkmatter> mac_v: I meant a user picture, not a name, and not 'everywhere', just on the panel. since one of the things you can do is pin contacts (with a graphical representation) to the panel/shelf/clippything, it seemed reasonable *shrug*
<mac_v> darkmatter: hmm , i meant since its a constant presence ... it is like writing a name on every page of the book ... i dont see a reason for the user to be reminded of his/her own face or name... but rather just provide *only* the user status icon  , which is more meaning full... OTOH I'm not sure what/how the pin contacts stuff works , but if that is supposed to give some meaning
<mac_v> then not sure if a pic is needed
<darkmatter> mac_v: basically. the shelf is dual mode. in compact mode its more like a traditional panel (appearances only), but in 'extended mode' it displayd a higher level of information. the idea is based on what I call replicants, which are basically generic user interfaces for various activities/functions (in a strange way like widgets but non-ghey :P),
<darkmatter> mac_v: so for example, the contacts thing: in compact mode it would show a collapsable group of buttons (like the icons on a dock, panel launchers, whatever), he group ass a whole is a replicant. in an extended shelf (or if viewed as a 'flyout' or dragged to the 'desktop', it would display like a buddy list
<mac_v> darkmatter: buddy list with images sounds good .. but still i dont think the panel needs my face ;p
<mac_v> i'd rather have a generic icon of the running app
<darkmatter> and in 'extended mode' the shelf can do advanced grouping of tasks/activities (a concept similar to workspaces.. haven't figured out the gui bits of accessing them yet in terms of navigation). so you could have an 'office' meta activity, an 'internet' one (surfing/communication, etc). each group would display its replicants (basically how switching spaces displays its own window list)
<darkmatter> except replicants are persistant until removed
<darkmatter> so, you launch a media player. (or play from the libray using the built in media service), replicant appears. it can 'flyout' (like a tooltip with controlls on it) or can be extended (like a miniplayer in the shelf), or dnd to the desktop as a 'widget' (which removes it from the shelf obviously)
<darkmatter> they stay where you put them, and are all freely drag n droppable for positioning/grouping/etc
<darkmatter> app icons... probably not (apps would be configurable 'components' for viewing/working with data). most likely generic doc icons (like a generic webpage with a favicon overlay, etc)... or something like that
<darkmatter> mac_v: but the panel/shelf is the part that is still rough. not so much functionally, but tying things together aesthetically :/
<mac_v> ;)
 * mac_v bbiab
<thundering-light> Erm..what if I have some artwork for ubuntu as ubuntu logo or cd covers?
<thundering-light> ?
<thundering-light> hello?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-22
<thorwil> heh, on a libreoffice list, someone stated "could not find much originality", referring to http://www.paul-rand.com/site/identity/
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-23
<zer0rez> anyone know if the font will be made available as a web embedable?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-24
<christhecoolboy> hello, Islington
<Islington> hey
<christhecoolboy> I wanna get a copy of the Logo
<christhecoolboy> But I cant use google :(
<Islington> so the logo files are located here: http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/
<christhecoolboy> Thank you... :)
<Islington> read up on what colors and how to use the files, it all quite pretty simple :)
<christhecoolboy> Also, one more question...
<christhecoolboy> How do I make a splash?
<Islington> for plymouth making a splash is pretty difficult, since its more coding than artwork
<Islington> try making a mockup of your idea
<christhecoolboy> Like an Animated GIF?
<Islington> that would work great, also a bunch of stationary pngs demonstrating the various reasons for the design, basically to explain it to someone who can code it
<christhecoolboy> Its actually pretty simple...
<christhecoolboy> You wanna hear my Idea?
<Islington> sure
<Islington> using the CoF as a bootloader
<Islington> unfortunately iirc the boot sequence doesnt five accurate timing so
<Islington> mostly the loading bar is just to let you know that stuff is going on
<Islington> *give
<christhecoolboy> Islington, PM?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-25
 * thorwil 's mad typing skills just created ubunut
<thorwil> vish: great post on the design blog
<vish> thorwil: thanks.. :)
<vish> thorwil: what does baer's post to the artwork ML regarding the ninja mean? i'm confused â¦ i'm not sure i get what he is saying..
<thorwil> vish: either ask him or forget about it and move on ;)
<vish> thorwil: \o/   i'm not alone.. just wanted to make sure of that ;)
<vish> thorwil: for the spec organization , why "0000_Name scheme"  do we need the "0000_" part?  why not use the ISO 8601 date format?
<vish> with "0000" we might run out of 4digit numbers ;p
<thorwil> vish: it's a running number, to keep track of the sequence and to know how many specs there are
<thorwil> vish: i'll bake you a cake if we do reach number 10000! ;)
<vish> yea, i got that part.. but not sure why it is useful..
<vish> thorwil: with baer's enthusiasm, you will need to learn to bake one pretty soon. ;)
<thorwil> vish: so the deadline for the design-center thing will be: ready before thorwil has to bake a cake for vish!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-26
<coz_> good day all
<kwwii> wow, 3 days with like one comment...nto exactly inspring
<kwwii> insiring
<kwwii> ahhhh
<kwwii> inspiring
<thorwil> kwwii: hmm?
<kwwii> thorwil: just read the log, not too much happening in the last couple of days
<kwwii> thorwil: the meeting is today, right? do you know exactly when? I seem to remember 4 but maybe that was UTC :-)
<thorwil> kwwii: today, 16:00 UTC
<kwwii> thorwil: cool, thanks
<thorwil> lunchtime! bbl
<j_baer> Hello Martin ;)
<kwwii> hi all
<j_baer> Doctormo - are you ready to begin?
 * kwwii has 20min before I have to leave (cooking dinner, etc.)
<thorwil> hi!
<j_baer> Ok - I don't know about Doctormo but we can begin.
<kwwii> coolo
<j_baer> One of the items on the agenda is leadership. I don't know what the concerns are?
<kwwii> well, there is my position ;-)
<kwwii> I no longer work for canonical, so if they want to appoint someone to lead from their side and everyone accepts that is fine by me
<thorwil> j_baer: differences of opinion between you and me, mostly. looks better now than it did when the meeting was planned
<j_baer> kwwii: Are you comfortable with how the team is running to today?
<j_baer> If not what would you change?
<woutervddn> l
<kwwii> j_baer: well, I wish it would be more productive :-)
<j_baer> kwwii: I share this wish as well.
<kwwii> j_baer: important to me is that everyone knows that if I do not work for canonical then I will not be accepting expectations from canonical
<ivanka> hi everyone!
<vish> o/
<kwwii> hi ivanka
<ivanka> Hi kwwii
<kwwii> my idea is that the artwork team should first be productive in and of itself before taking on tasks which need leadership as such
<thorwil> kwwii: how do you see your future role and what do you plan regarding involvement?
<j_baer> kwwii: Do you work for Canonical?
<kwwii> j_baer: no, I do not
<thorwil> j_baer: he used to
<thorwil> ended between the last 2 uds
<j_baer> All: Then can leadership be shared?
<kwwii> thorwil: I see my role as helping coordinate and helping people with specific questions, mentoring, etc...as for my personal involvement, I am in the process of starting a new icon theme
<ivanka> Perhaps we could talk about the role of the leader?
<kwwii> ivanka: sure, how do you picture that?
<ivanka> At UDS we discussed that the artwork team should be running in such a way that the whole community can make better use of it
<thorwil> j_baer: yes, but that depends on in how far those who share responsibility tend to agree
<ivanka> There was also a request for 'work items'
<ivanka> kwwii: ^
<vish> j_baer: i dont see the need for a 'shared leadership' just because kwwii no longer works for Canonical
<ivanka> And, it seems to me that specific things identified by Canonical should be triaged and picked up in the same way as a request from a loco team, for example
<ivanka> For example, thorwil does a brilliant job of representing the defined visual identity pieces in lots of places
<thorwil> ty :)
<vish> boo!
<ivanka> thorwil: np :-)
<vish> ;p
<ivanka> vish is also brilliant :-)
<kwwii> until now, taking wishes (or orders) from canonical has only worked so well
 * vish waits for thorwil to boo.. ;)
<j_baer> kwwii: IMO the Design Team and the Artwork Team needs to work more closely
 * thorwil lets vish wait. hard.
<kwwii> and if canonical inteds to lead in this way, then they should just pick a leader - it's not really a community project as such then
<ivanka> kwwii: yeah, we talked about that
<ivanka> kwwii: I meant that in response the the (orders) bit
<j_baer> all: There is risk to a community team - things may not happen as desire
<ivanka> kwwii, everyone, I think this has to remain a community team
<ivanka> we talked about making more of a presence for it so that we could attract more people
<ivanka> and 'service' more projects (like apps) or marketing materials for loco teams and things like that
<j_baer> ivanka: Agreed, but there is no reason the two can not work together
<kwwii> they one need only to pick a canonical team member to be the access point
<kwwii> and either a leader from the community or a council
<kwwii> as for me, I do not have to stay in a leadership position, I won't force that on anyone :p
<vish> j_baer: IMO, firstly, quality should precede demand for equality â¦
<thorwil> +1
<vish> we have not shown quality, yet
<ivanka> thorwil: which bit are you +1?
<j_baer> vish: Then we need to lead folk to that point
<thorwil> " quality should precede demand for equality â¦"
<ivanka> thorwil: thanks :-)
<kwwii> I think we need a lot of mentoring to get people up to speed experience and skills wise
<ivanka> kwwii: agreed
<j_baer> kwwi: Agreed, that is the strength of a community team
<ivanka> I think it would be great if there was a leader who could match requests to  people, amongst other things
<kwwii> when we started oxygen we were only two artists, but by finding community members interested in learning we expanded our group (by teaching them)
<j_baer> ivanka: Matching skill sets is difficult as the membership is changing
<thorwil> that has been my thinking, too. there are not enough experienced/trained people, so a real solution has to do something about that
<kwwii> ivanka: exactly, as well as inspiring the team and pointing them to new ideas and projects, etc
<ivanka> kwwii: so do you think that limiting scope would help grow?
<j_baer> ivanka: Limiting scope is limited by what folks are willing to do
<ivanka> there have been a couple of requests from community members (like forums and screenshots) that I have forwarded to the list
<j_baer> ivanka: how has that worked out?
<j_baer> I thought the Ubuntu forums request went well
<ivanka> Forums got good help, but for the screenshots piece it needs to be picked up by someone who understands how to connect the dots across the community
<ivanka> it is not just a 'design' piece
<ivanka> Or it is in the broader context of gathering requirements and making sure all the right people are in the loop
<j_baer> ivanka: That is a challenge
<ivanka> I would imagine that if someone in a loco team wanted a specific thing made, a banner or such, the current artwork list could handle it very well
<kwwii> well, in the end if nobody is interesting in a certain project there is no way to change that
<kwwii> so for me, I would say we limit ourselves to the projects which people are willing to work on :-)
<ivanka> kwwii: indeed :-)
<j_baer> kwwii: Projects like screen shots needs help from the design team
<thorwil> i just saw a lack if info what the screenshots site is or isn't. i think that info needs to come from outside the team and none of us should play detective
<ivanka> thorwil: agreed
<j_baer> thorwil: +1
<ivanka> thorwil: that is why I stopped it, sent of a bunch of emails and am trying to be sherlock
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> again, anything that comes from the design team needs to be led by the design team
 * vish mentioned that screenshots is actually a debian site on the bug ivanka filed on day 1, wonder if ivanka reads bug mail ;p
<ivanka> so, maybe the leader could say "not enough info, come back later"
<thorwil> ivanka: yeah, and why it's our only spec in the "frozen" category
<j_baer> ivanka: +1
<ivanka> vish: I called that out in the original post
<vish> ah.. ok :)
<ivanka> From me, in my Canonical position, I want to be in open dialogue about stuff
<ivanka> I won't expect anyone to pick up anything they don't want to
<j_baer> ivanka: My vision is the Design Team and the Artwork team would share info openly
<ivanka> And, I will happily respond to 'not enough information, go away'
<ivanka> I have been encouraging people like Yaili and Richard to get involved in the conversations on the list
<j_baer> ivanka: For example - you know what we are doing but do we know what the Design Team is doing?
<ivanka> But, in my Canonical role, I am only one source of potential projects
<kwwii> j_baer: I dont think you can reasonably expect that info to be given
<vish> :)
<kwwii> unless ivanka says otherwise, naturally
<j_baer> kwwii: help me understand
<ivanka> j_baer: I get as much as possible put on the design blog and you can find it in bugs
<ivanka> j_baer: I have Iain write the 'this week in design' posts
<j_baer> ivanka: what is your #1 project?
<kwwii> j_baer: I mean that other than the info already in the public space there will be no news
<kwwii> j_baer: we cannot expect them to explain everything they do, they'd spend more time explaining than doing
<ivanka> thanks kwwii
<ivanka> j_baer: I have been trying to increase communications and openess
<thorwil> j_baer: there are business interests and there is just not the bandwidth to communicate what a team of full-time workers does
<kwwii> np
<kwwii> thorwil: exactly
<ivanka> j_baer: some of my stuff is really boring like getting designs for job spec documents in canonical
<ivanka> Right thorwil
<j_baer> ivanka: I understand but a very strong team building emotion is inclusion - folks want to feel included in Ubuntu :)
<j_baer> For example: Wallpaper
<j_baer> IMO we will see improvement if folks feel this way
<j_baer> Look at how well the photo submissions is doing
<vish> j_baer: wallpaper is no longer a community task..
<vish> afaik.. :)
<kwwii> j_baer, everyone: jfyi, every time to the team has attempted a larger project on itself and tried to take direction from canonical it has failed, mainly due to lack of explanation about decisions as well as lack of invovlement in the decision making process. we need to stick to the things we are good at, like the photo contest and other smaller things until we have the resources and structure to accomplish larger tasks
<kwwii> whew, that was long
<ivanka> kwwii: :-)
<thorwil> and good
<kwwii> anyway...I have to head out now...time for supper! (and weekend)
<thorwil> kwwii: cya and thanks
<ivanka> bye kwwii
<kwwii> thorwil: np, I'll check in later and read the log
<vish> kwwii: bye..  and when you have time, pls update the topic ;)
<kwwii> have fun everyone
<kwwii> vish: lol, will do
<vish> FONTs are available ;p
<j_baer> ivanka: Is it possible to have Design Team members and Artwork Team members work together?
<ivanka> j_baer: what does that look like to you?
<ivanka> where is doctormo today?
<j_baer> ivanka: Have the design team lead but accept submissions from the community
<j_baer> Don't know?
<vish> doctormo: this is your damn meeting!!! hmpf
<j_baer> vish: It's ok :)
<thorwil> j_baer: didn't go to well for the GDM for ... which release was that again?
<kwwii> vish: change it yourself :P
<vish> kwwii: thanks.. :)
<vish> thorwil: karmic
<j_baer> thorwil: Agreed as I was apart that
<vish> Until now the team has not shown any proven track record of delivering, so that the Canonical team can bank on us..  and it might be a bit over-reaching to expect them to depend on us..
<j_baer> vish: How can we change that?
<ivanka> vish, I might not have put it that strongly, but there is a bit of that
<ivanka> j_baer: nothing like this happens over night
<ivanka> I will continue to put things out there
<ivanka> and we will see what works and what doesn't
<ivanka> for example
<ivanka> the flickr 'new artwork icon' has some really great submissions
<ivanka> which  makes me think that the artwork team could make loads more pictograms and stuff
<j_baer> ivanka: Thank you - I agree.
<thorwil> j_baer: delivering stunning and well thought-out wallpapers for edubuntu and xubuntu should be a good start
<vish> j_baer: not sure, but one way is to deliver on what ivanka puts on the table.. or more people doing things out of our own interest like how thorwil updates logos, and stuff..
<ivanka> but, on a different note, I don't know if a new logo is as important for the artwork team as defining what the artwork team does
<j_baer> thorwil: +1
<j_baer> ivanka: +1 Just a tool to get folks involved
 * thorwil still wants artwork -> design
<ivanka> thorwil: to change names?
<thorwil> ivanka: to change name along with mindset
<ivanka> kwwii: you still here?
<thorwil> and to dissolve the split from ayatana, perhaps
<ivanka> I don't know how the politics around that work, I don't know how the community works with a big change like that
<j_baer> thorwil: That would be a big change
<ivanka> I was thinking on the train this morning that maybe it should be Artwork and Design
<vish> ivanka: i had filed a rt request for an art.ubuntu.com site, and they have agreed to assign it, so its ready..  i'v told them to wait for your survey, and whether it should be an art.u.c or a design.u.c
<j_baer> ivanka: IMO I would focus on team improvement leading to a name change
<ivanka> vish: cool
<ivanka> j_baer: again, what does that look like?
<j_baer> ivanka: Sorry lost my train of thought.
<j_baer> If the Design Team owned the project they could define the spec with suggestions from the team and then open the effort up for submissions.
<j_baer> If the submissions were inadequate for forward with internally developed designs
<j_baer> Folks would feel they had a chance. :)
<thorwil> what if folks thinking they deserve a chance is part of the problem?
<j_baer> thorwil: Having a chance is better than no chance.
<ivanka> As I have already mentioned, I will continue to put out pieces of work
<ivanka> but I am not the only 'customer'
<ivanka> This is not *my8 community I am a participant in it
<vish> aw :(
<j_baer> ivanka: +1 and my concern has always been too much work
<vish> we left out ivanka :s
<ivanka> vish why :(
<vish> j/k ;)
<ivanka> vish :-)
<ivanka> OK - so give that it is almost 5 on Friday and I have another meeting to go to in 7 minutes
<ivanka> what are the conclusions to this?
<thorwil> we continue like we started with?
<vish> [AGREED] dont depend on doctormo to make it to meetings ! ;)
<j_baer> ivanka: Do you agree to be the Design Team point of contact?
<thorwil> any opinions on declaring the LibreOffice spec closed?
<ivanka> j_baer: yes, I agree to be the design team point of contact
<j_baer> ivanka: Thank you
<ivanka> j_baer: if you will agree to take some deep breaths before you fill my inbox ;)
<vish> +1
<j_baer> ivanka: yes :)
<ivanka> j_baer: thank you
<ivanka> thorwil: what about the spec?
<vish> j_baer: i think we should pace things a bit more, rather than having more tasks at the same time..
<thorwil> ivanka: it has no content and is out of the scope of the artwork team as i see it
<j_baer> vish: I am satisfied with our current list realizing other things may show up
<ivanka> thorwil: :-)
<thorwil> as in: the specification has to happen inside the LibO project
<j_baer> ivanka & vish: Do you need help with paper cuts?
<vish> j_baer: sure..
<ivanka> thorwil: I agree
<j_baer> vish: IMO we need help with this as they may come flying in from all directions
<ivanka> thorwil: from what I can tell, invitations can come in but then if people inside the list want to pick it up then they do it under their own steam
<thorwil> exactly
<ivanka> j_baer: paper cuts has been running and is not an artwork specific project
<ivanka> j_baer: there may be a few that are specifically art work required
<j_baer> ivanka: Ok
<ivanka> vish, what do you think?
<vish> ivanka: i cleaned those artwork specific things during the past three cycles :D
<thorwil> and vish recently filled an artwork need for the papercuts team in a smooth way. like a ninja!
<ivanka> thorwil: heh
<j_baer> thorwil: I am concern about the message we may be sending if we close the LibreOffice task
<vish> things == bugs
<thorwil> j_baer: few people will notice
<j_baer> thorwil: But what if they do?
<thorwil> j_baer: though, you can add a section for listing projects where we "endorse" getting involved to the spec list
<vish> j_baer: what message do you think they would take out of it being closed?
<ivanka> thorwil: that is a nice idea - like a cross promotion thing?
<ivanka> "people on this team also like doing this sort of stuff"
<j_baer> thorwil: +1 I agree the spec should be changed
<thorwil> j_baer: it's like a fly shifting a little weight arounds its legs
<j_baer> vish: We need to support upstream as best as we can
<j_baer> thorwil: +1
<ivanka> thorwil, j_baer, vish - I have to go
<j_baer> ivanka: Thank you
<vish> ivanka: thx, later.. :)
<ivanka> bye guys, have a lovely weekend!
<thorwil> ivanka: you too, thanks
<j_baer> Ok in the time remaining - anything else?
<vish> j_baer: i dont see it as dismissing upstream, but do we have the man-power?
<vish> to take on the task..
<vish> or woman-power.. :D
<j_baer> vish: Agree - and things may not happen as it is not a priority for us.
<vish> yea..
<j_baer> vish: How do you see your role on the team?
<vish>  a member of the team..
<j_baer> vish: Do you feel comfortable in creating submissions?
<thorwil> vish is important for making me fell less lonely in this channel, among other things :)
<vish> i was just wondering what thorwil would have done, if i werent here :D
<j_baer> vish: :) Ok - do you feel comfortable creating submissions
<vish> j_baer: when i find something interesting, i'll gladly do it.. :)
<j_baer> vish: I see you as a real talent and your submissions would be great. :)
<vish> j_baer: thx.. i'm just lucky at times :D
<j_baer> thorwil: thanks for helping with wiki - I know it is distasteful
<j_baer> I really hope the fixes can be implemented soon as it is driving me crazy
<thorwil> j_baer: np. i'm glad you have been doing most of that work
<thorwil> that also makes me think twice before changing something
<j_baer> thorwil: can you work your magic with the Edubuntu spec?
<j_baer> IMO the Xubuntu spec look great
<thorwil> j_baer: i could, but i havn't seen enough willingness and enthusiasm from the edubuntu side
<j_baer> thorwil: I'll see if I can help with that :)
<thorwil> j_baer: basically i would just repeat most of what i said in the xubuntu case
<j_baer> thorwil: +1
<j_baer> Ok everyone - I've got to go as well, have a good weekend!
<thorwil> in both cases, i would like to have the panels and a window on a transparent ground, so it can be overlayed on wallpaper proposals
<thorwil> though in both cases creating the wallpaper first, to then tweak theme colors would be a valid approach, too
<thorwil> j_baer: same to you, thanks
<thorwil> vish: rather smooth sailing, eh? :)
<vish> thorwil: yea.. :)
<thorwil> i'm gonna write a summary for the list
<vish> cool!
<vish> thorwil: btw, how much space would we need for an art.u.c or a design.u.c ?
<vish> the sys admins asked that, since we might need to host stuff.. and they need to allot space on the server..
<thorwil> woutervddn: noticed you around, but staying quite. how was the luring experience? ;)
<vish> or doctormo too..  when he returns..^
<thorwil> vish: how would i know? doctormo might be able to make a reasonable estimate
<thorwil> vish: i still dream of a neutral design site. unfortunately, my time went *poof* working on other things
<kwwii> it would all depend on how large of uploads are allowed and how often the queue is removed
<kwwii> :-)
<vish> kwwii: yea, any guesstimate?
<kwwii> it would be easy to allow people to upload pics which are large and fill up the server
<kwwii> vish: not off the top of my head
<vish> cool! well decide later :)
<vish> we'll
<thorwil> queue removed? there should be long time archival (though crap could be kicked out)
<kwwii> thorwil: right, mainly I meant the upload queue of pics which are no longer displayed, etc
 * thorwil looks at his 60MB wallpaper source files
<kwwii> thorwil: ie, I could upload the same pic again and again with different names, versions, etc
<doctormo> thorwil: I seem to have gotten myself sick and missed todays meeting :-(
<doctormo> Did it happen?
<thorwil> doctormo: yes. went well
<thorwil> doctormo: you have the complete backlog, right? i'm working on a summary
<doctormo> thorwil: No, but it's logged somewhere right?
<thorwil> doctormo: get well soon!
<thorwil> of course: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/26/%23ubuntu-artwork.html
<doctormo> thanks thorwil, I think Ill head back to bed now to read the log on my phone.
<doctormo> thorwil: So we didn't get to the meeting agenda other than the first item which wasn't decided.
<doctormo> vish: Sorry I wasn't there.
<doctormo> thorwil: I'm leaning towards another meeting, although If I could just get the 4 players in the same room at the same time, that would help.
<woutervddn> thorwil, only was here for a sec. I went to give blood...
<thorwil> doctormo: unlikely to get a decision regarding leadership. chance to talk about grievances was there
<doctormo> thorwil: Right, thorwil, j_baer, ivanka and kwwii are the new nucleaus. Hurra,
<doctormo> You need to bring about consensus between all four members about what tools to use and processes to use for this cycle.
<doctormo> If it's all good, then no work needs doing.
<thorwil> it's not all good, but might be good enough for now
<doctormo> thorwil: Make sure j_baer is aware of his new status and the requirement for absolute consesnsus in the core oft he project.
<thorwil> doctormo: well, ivanka is our contact person and as such a bit of a special case. kwwii i assume will be more like a coach on the sidelines
<thorwil> doctormo: short of asking to be made official leader myself, i really didn't know how to clear things up. that's not something i want to do
<kwwii> thorwil...I would vote for you as leader :-)
<thorwil> kwwii: heh, thanks! :)
<thorwil> aside of retaining the ability to drop out for a while when I have to, i should either remain or become convincing with my words and actions on every point
<thorwil> also, vish makes snide remarks when he thinks that i think i could just assume that position ;)
<woutervddn> I just read the backlog and I must say that there should be more 'learning experience'
<thorwil> woutervddn: yes
<thorwil> it seems the thought of getting into coding on some free software project to learn and gain experience is much more common
<thorwil> than doing likewise with artwork/design, where a mentality of "helping out" seems more prevalent
<woutervddn> true, but wouldn't it be possible to have subtile guidings..
<thorwil> woutervddn: perhaps. i have been thinking along those lines, but the idea remained all vague, so far
<woutervddn> I'm quiet new to the artwork list, but reading that backlog it's like there isn't much coherence in the team..
<woutervddn> am I interpreting this right?
<thorwil> woutervddn: you could say that. though irc logs don't tend to be a beacon of clarity :)
<thorwil> woutervddn: so, are you looking for a learning experience?
<woutervddn> true..
<woutervddn> and yes..
<woutervddn> As far as I know the current projects it seems like logo design is really the biggest thing that the team is doing..
<woutervddn> and altough I make artwork for a long time now, but only recently I'm that much into linux that I started using gimp..
<kwwii> I would argue that creative work is not as easy to learn for all people as coding is
<coz_> woutervddn,  you may also like to get familiar with inkscape as well
<woutervddn> and it's kind of a pain to "reteach" how stuff works..
<kwwii> a bad artist is a bad artist and everyone can tell a bad one from a distance, whereas a bad coder, if the code somehow works won't be noticed by any user, rather only coders who are better
<thorwil> woutervddn: it's been a while since i used photoshopt. if you have specific question regarding gimp (or inkscape) i might be able to help
<woutervddn> kwwii: coding isn't simple for all people.. I have VBA now in class, many of my classmates don't understand the logics behind coding..
<kwwii> woutervddn: right, but a non-developer would not know the difference as long as the code works
<woutervddn> well, I think that I aswell as others just need to feel te boost not to give up on trying..
<kwwii> *everyone* has an opinion on artwork
<woutervddn> rebooting and doing stuff in windows is far easier then figuring everything out for the first time (again..)
<coz_> woutervddn,  that will fade with time
<coz_> woutervddn,  I was a die hard photoshop and painter user
<woutervddn> kwwii: indeed.. Artwork is a far more complex matter..
<kwwii> the thing to do is to somehow figure out how new people could most help the creative effort with their skills *now* while deciding a direction to mentor them to take most benefit from their inherint talent
<coz_> mmm
<kwwii> woutervddn: take, for example, the fact that the art list has around 200 members at any given time and yet only a handfull of real contributors
<woutervddn> true that..
<woutervddn> well, artwork has 1 big advantage and disadvantage.
<kwwii> it would be interested to see the statistics on one of the dev lists
<kwwii> s/interested/interesting
<thorwil> i wonder if people would accept training tasks
<woutervddn> the fact you can put out "contests" and choose the best..
<kwwii> thorwil: yes, they would if they had someone who held their hand and helped them
<kwwii> thorwil: that is my experience at least
<kwwii> thorwil: my biggest problem when I worked for canonical was that I couldn't really help anyone directly on a project or they would think it was canonical approved and would be in ubuntu
<woutervddn> with coding this is harder (impossible) but it makes it possible to help other programmers as with artwork you just make a new artwork and submit it under your own name..
<kwwii> or they would at least secretly wish it :p
<kwwii> I think there is still a misunderstanding about working on stuff to be included in ubuntu...without careful attention it can go very wrong very fast
<coz_> maybe an explanation of how work is chosen to be included would be helpful  so there are no misunderstandings?
<kwwii> but hey, now I sound like someone else :p
<thorwil> kwwii: do you miss him, too?
<coz_> is this troy  you are talking about?? :)
<thorwil> nah, Cory
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, I bet we would agree much more often now that it is not my job to play puppet
<kwwii> thorwil: lol, no...coz is right
<thorwil> oh, dang
<thorwil> but the importance of making clear that we don't get to work on the official stuff just so was always Cory's line
<kwwii> thorwil: lol, that shows how long you have been around :p
<thorwil> kwwii: still green compared to you ;)
<kwwii> actually, I would love to have a chat with troy :-)
<woutervddn> thorwil, I think that should be something everyone should know..
<coz_> kwwii,   I havent spoken with him for some time now
<thorwil> woutervddn: it has been on the Artwork wiki page since long and has been brought up on planet ubuntu, too
<kwwii> coz_: it must be film-making season :-)
<coz_> :)
<vish> doctormo: np.. get well soon :)
<vish> thorwil: who me? snide ;)  nah.. i was just responding to baer's comment about need for a shared leadership just because someone does not work in Canonical..  if you want to lead.. sure be the leader.. :)
<thorwil> woutervddn: i used to point it out in answers to people introducing themselves on the list. the outcome was that none of them ever said much afterwards ... and i was gently asked to tone down the negativity ;)
<kwwii> the person who leads should be the one with the skills, experience and time to do it
<kwwii> all of those things count, not just one
<vish> yup..
<kwwii> erm, skills include artwork and people skills
<thorwil> it's the time aspect that worries me the most
<kwwii> and people skills in this sense are kinda funky compared to what you might imagine
<thorwil> my people skills are awesome. it's just that many people never notice or understand that!!!
<kwwii> from my past, I can say that canonical has an inherint interest in the artwork team being functional and contribute content
<kwwii> but it has been shown again and again that the communication can go very wrong
<kwwii> so the person who leads has to be willing to take on all of that, and be able to do the job well
<kwwii> (in the other areas I mentioned)
<kwwii> thorwil has a very good relationship with canonical and the design team
<kwwii> but anyway
<kwwii> who wants to hear about my plans for a new icon set? :P
<thorwil> kwwii: i edited that out of the summary, to avoid rumors. now be careful, or omgubuntu will reports about plans of a rebel leader to replace the ubuntu icon theme with a new one, of a never seen before style!
<vish> thorwil: the only issue i had with baer's flow to the question was: > "so you dont work for canonical" -> "ok , lets have a shared leader"  which seemed a silly reason..
<coz_> kwwii,   i would definitly like to hear that :)
<thorwil> vish: i read that more as generally questioning the need to have a definitive, single person as leader
<woutervddn> now I read this I realize ubuntu is more 'closed' then I thought..
<woutervddn> has it always been like that?
<thorwil> woutervddn: note that the artwork team had several cycles time to deliver something that would not indicate the need to hire professionals. it didn't
<vish> thorwil: well, whoever wants to assume leadership, they just had to have been clearer.. which seemed like what john wanted ,  dint think you were hinting at leadership.. you were being far too subtle with your hints.. ;)
<coz_> woutervddn,  you get onto the mailing list and submit work for either  requested art work examples  or submit unrequested work...
<kwwii> sorry, popping popcorn for my son, bbiab
<thorwil> vish: you missed the part where is stated that i do not want to be made officially appointed leader?
<woutervddn> thorwil: so now they have hired professionals..
<woutervddn> but in my eyes that shouldn't be the reason the artwork team is kept in the blind of stuff..
<vish> thorwil: oh! i'm sleepy, 1:20 am here.. but whatev.. afaik, anyone who wants to be can lead..
<coz_> :)
<thorwil> woutervddn: you have basically no chance to see your work used as default theme or wallpaper for ubuntu, but at least xubuntu and edubuntu are open in that regard
<vish> thorwil: so no snide remarks from me.. i'm just kidding most of the time. ;)
<coz_> vish - snide?  no way
<thorwil> vish: and here i took your every word serious. every single, all the time!!
<vish> you never know ;p
<kwwii> woutervddn: you must realize that canonical is a much larger company than you think...they do not just make ubuntu itself and the design team is responsible for all of that
<thorwil> woutervddn: http://design.canonical.com/ improved matters quite a bit
<kwwii> naturally, as an IT company trying to make money they cannot tell everyone all of their plans for everything
<kwwii> people seem to be a but utopian in that respect
<woutervddn> thorwil & kwwii, in that case I think canonical should reconsider what ubuntu stands for... cause hearing this the 'ubuntu circle of friends' isn't really showing..
<kwwii> hrm, what is a good icon project name? opensourceicons?
<thorwil> bah
<kwwii> woutervddn: if you tried to develop a new app for ubuntu there is also no promise it will be accepted
<thorwil> kwwiicons
<kwwii> thorwil: ahhh, yes!
<kwwii> kwwii's icon point
<coz_> just dont abbreviate that to "kicons"
<kwwii> kde stands for ken's desktop environment
<coz_> kwwicons
<vish> lol!!!
<coz_> I like that
<coz_> kwwii,  :)
<woutervddn> kwwii at one side that's a good thing, in that way no junk apps enter ubuntu like the sh*tload of worthless apps for windows..
<kwwii> real kde devs think there is a K-ernel
<kwwii> woutervddn: well, you can still get all the crap apps you want in linux
<kwwii> for free!
<kwwii> kwwicons it is
<woutervddn> :p yeah, but not as much in the softwarecentre.
<woutervddn> all in all ubuntu did make a huge leap with the 10.04, but if they want to do all design/artwork themselves they shouldn't allow an artwork team..
<thorwil> woutervddn: they do not want to make it all themselves
<thorwil> but they do want to have utmost control over the default theme and wallpaper
<woutervddn> then why you say your work doesn't make a change to be included in an official release..
<kwwii> coz_: so on the icon front, I am planning on making a high quality gray scale icon set which is easily recolorable, adding code as necessary to make it all work...think lots of code
<thorwil> woutervddn: i did not say "included". i said default. as in: the stuff you see after install
<woutervddn> true..
<coz_> kwwii,  oooo I like the greyscale idea
<kwwii> coz_: I want to make an icon set which scales and renders as nicely as a font
<thorwil> not to forget during install
<kwwii> it hinting, etc
<kwwii> s/it/ie
<woutervddn> thorwil: but which designer would want to make stuff if they don't get recognition for it..
<thorwil> kwwii: now that is a concept. glad it won't be yet another *
<coz_> kwwii,   so mainly svg I take it?
<kwwii> thorwil: I would not waste my time to work on something which is just the same thing again
<kwwii> also, it is kinda a work thing
<thorwil> kwwii: wie konnte ich an dir zweifeln? :)
<coz_> :)
<kwwii> thorwil: n'ja, ich habe angst gehabt das ich dir in Dallas zumindest ein biÃchen shockiert habe :p
<kwwii> lol, bad half english spelling
<kwwii> schockiert, ein c zu wenig
<woutervddn> lol don't say you guys are germans?
<vish> woutervddn: kwwii is a pretend german ;p
<woutervddn> ow.. :p
<woutervddn> and thorwil?
<vish> thorwil is thorwil ;)
<woutervddn> mijn duits is niet zo goed, maar ik spreek nederlands..
<kwwii> woutervddn: I am us american but I have lived in germany for 15 years
<vish> i would have learnt german in highschool, but missed out and continued with french :/
<woutervddn> ow..
<kwwii> well, I live in oberfranken which is not quite Germany :p
<vish> and now i forgot most of french too :(
<coz_> :)
<woutervddn> le francais et un langue terrible ausi!
<zniavre_> :o)
<woutervddn> being a semi linguistic is what you get from living in a country the size of a wallnut, with 3 official languages (english isn't one of them..)
<daker> woutervddn, le franÃ§ais est une langue terrible :)
<woutervddn> :p ssst daker :p
<woutervddn> worst of all! the country doesn't even have a goverment, but that's okay since we have 3 or 4 goverments.. -_-'
<woutervddn> first one to guess the country gets a free picture of manneke pis..
<daker> vish, i can give you french courses :)
<vish> oh oh!
<woutervddn> xD
<thorwil> that sounds so wrong
<vish> thorwil: you and your dirty mind ;p
<woutervddn> xD
<woutervddn> lol I should start learning french to.. halve of my country speaks it, I hear it every day but I can't make 10 sentences without errors in them..
<vish> daker: that would be nice at some point.. really silly of me forgetting a language â¦ after highschool dint have much daily use and forgot it.
<woutervddn> vish: you can't keep up with a language if you're not using it on a regular bases..
<vish> yea..
<daker> vish, 1ex : Conjuguer le verbe Ãªtre au prÃ©sent de l'indicatif :D
<vish> daker: oh not at 2AM! ;p
<woutervddn> suis, es, est, sommes, Ãªtes, sont?
<daker> woutervddn, 10/10
<vish> daker: ^^
<woutervddn> wopaaaah!
<woutervddn> even the ^'s and the ',`'s?
<kwwii> vish: you are a doctor, I imagine you can stay up all night
<kwwii> vish: although that was proved wrong in belgium, wasn't it? :P
<vish> hehe :)
<vish> belgium is like Las Vegas ;p
<vish> what happens in belgium stays in belgium ;)
<woutervddn> kwwii gets the manneke pis photo but, what about belgium :p
<woutervddn> and vish.. in which weird parrallel universe does belgium reminds you of las vegas? :p
<kwwii> vish: hehe, indeed!
<kwwii> I know I left a few things there myself :-)
<vish> woutervddn: all the same crazy stuff happens there too ;)
<woutervddn> *-) like..
<vish> kwwii: Orlando was not fun without you there ;)
<kwwii> extra if you are staying at a hotel in the middle of the forest with extremely expensive alcohol
<woutervddn> xD lol.. belgian alcohol?
<kwwii> vish: trust me, after 10 UDS's you can have the rest
<vish> ha!
<kwwii> woutervddn: INDEED
<woutervddn> lol, you tried our beers?
<kwwii> 12 years of making linux desktops for money and you would think I would be sick of it
<woutervddn> which city where you at?
<kwwii> woutervddn: oh yes, at length
<kwwii> woutervddn: we were outside brussels
<woutervddn> leuven?
<kwwii> at an ex-ibm training center turned into hotel
<woutervddn> Hotel Dolce La Hulpe Brussels**** ?
<kwwii> La Hulpe
<kwwii> exactly
<kwwii> you are quicker at google-ing than I
<kwwii> ibm or intel, not sure which
<woutervddn> lol.. IBM
<kwwii> something with an I, I think
<woutervddn> it's a 30 minute drive from where I live :p
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> it is 30min drive from anywhere
<kwwii> and a gin-tonic costed like 12â¬
<woutervddn> xD not true.. currently I study at the outer end of belgium (hasselt) and it takes me a whole hour to get at hulpe!
<kwwii> I spent like 400â¬, although I was there for two weeks and had pay for my own dinner for the first week
<kwwii> woutervddn: lol, sounds like belgium isn't very heavily settled
<kwwii> I spent another week in brussels a week after that
<woutervddn> lol, no just to many traffic..
<kwwii> we stayed in a hotel in a part of brussels that we probably should not have been staying in
<woutervddn> so you went to see the little guy that's peeing..our grand statue -_-'
<kwwii> it was really funky
<woutervddn> (or you guys just stayed inside of the hotel and were drunk from morning till evening?)
<kwwii> I liked my weekend trip to Brugge the best
<kwwii> woutervddn: no, no...from 9-6 is work at UDS, trust me
<kwwii> hard-core
<woutervddn> lol, I never got what people like about brugge :p
<kwwii> lol
<woutervddn> ow, being druk was from 6 till 9? :p
<kwwii> years ago, yes
<kwwii> in the meantime things are very civilized
<woutervddn> where do you live now kwwii?
<kwwii> bamberg germany, basically
<kwwii> hallstadt, outside of bamberg really
<woutervddn> ow.. so you know about belgiums big problems :p
<kwwii> I think part of the attraction of Brugge for me was at least half understanding what people said
<kwwii> my french is pretty poor and the french they spoke in La Hulpe what nothing near what I was used to
<woutervddn> xD lol..
<woutervddn> the whole upper half of belgium speaks dutch :p
<kwwii> indeed :-)
<kwwii> readable for a german, basically
<woutervddn> I think the same about german.. xD
<woutervddn> but speaking it hard though..
<kwwii> well, if you take english and german and mix things a bit..learn how to make a scccchhhhhllllk and other sounds
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> no doubt, speaking is the hard part
<kwwii> although often I think it sounds like german words pronouned by an american
<thorwil> heh
<kwwii> trying to fake a bad dutch accent
<kwwii> or maybe that it just how I sound!
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> circular logic
<woutervddn> xD
<kwwii> for some reason, I found the dutch accent in belgium much easier to understand than say, amsterdam
<kwwii> although everyone in amerstdam just speaks english to me if I don't try to act like a german :p
<woutervddn> xD
<woutervddn> you don't want to know how hard the ubuntu loco team of belgian is to coÃ¶rdinate, I'm glad it's not something I must do :p
<woutervddn> but everything has to be translated to french, dutch and german.. so the irc meetings are all english.. :p
<kwwii> woutervddn: I can imagine
<woutervddn> ah well.. atleast we are the only stable country that can keep functioning for over a year without a goverment..
<kwwii> LOL, no doubt..it doesn't seem to upset anyone
<woutervddn> xD it does.. investors are calling us the new ireland.. :p
<kwwii> then again, after staying in brussels I realize how much belgium has undergone in the process of creating the EU
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-27
* vish changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for the community artwork team | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art | The Ubuntu Brand Identity Guidelines are available at : http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/
* vish changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for the community artwork team | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art | The Ubuntu Brand Identity Guidelines are available at : http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/
<coz_> good day all
<zer0rez> are we going to be able to use ubuntu's font as a web embedable font @ some point?
<darkmatter> vish: dear me, my desky sucks almost as much as yours :O http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5241/5211946749_ce3f9f5208_b.jpg :P
<zer0rez> darkmatter: nice, i like your setup.
<darkmatter> I'll respond to that with a thank you :)
<coz_> darkmatter,   hey guy :)   when did you go to ubuntu?
<darkmatter> cozheya. switched over when geeko was misbehaving
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah ok :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  that theme is rather nice
<darkmatter> cozslightly modded ambiance, what with my currently being lazy and all
<coz_> darkmatter,  actually...that is nice especially in firefox google thingy
<coz_> darkmatter,  is that part of the the theme mod?
<zer0rez> darkmatter: is that not your setup?
<darkmatter> coz. in progress. but the real theme I'm working on is teh evil :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  I really like the way firefox looks there
<coz_> darkmatter,  very very clean :)
<darkmatter> zer0rez: it is my current setup
<darkmatter> cozand using the globalmenu too ;)
<zer0rez> ah ok, your response seemed like it might be someone elses ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  let me know when you share that :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah I see
<zer0rez> i like the global menu, coming from Mac OS it's a comfort
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo  also noticed the greyscale icons in sys tray
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok i want this theme lol
<zer0rez> yea nice simple dropbox icon
<darkmatter> extension of the net (from git) compiled it. works quite nicely. wish thunderbird had it :/
<coz_> darkmatter,  this extensioin from git...easily done?
<coz_> darkmatter,  I am always impressed with your themes
<coz_> darkmatter,  I definitly want this on my system :)
<darkmatter> cozyup. as long a you have xulrunner-dev installed, or I could just send the xpi
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm let me check
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah but I am still on 10.04
<darkmatter> coz_: so am I
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool :)
<darkmatter> coz_: integrates firefox with the gnome2-globalmenu thing next best thing to being menu-free (I'd prefer zero menus, but alas...)
<coz_> nice
<darkmatter> yay! my internet radio died...
<coz_> damn kernel update
<coz_> have to reboot...be back in a bit
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-28
<coz_> is there a natty wallpaper already chosen?
<thorwil> coz_: while i have not much of a clue what happens inside canonical, that's very unlikely
<coz_> thorwil,   ok
<thorwil> wallpaper decisions tend to come late
<coz_> thorwil,  I have a few old  wallpapers that until now really didnt fit with colour scheme
<coz_> thorwil,  I also noticed that xubuntu  is not specifying palettes since apparenlty they want to change the look and feel I guess
<thorwil> coz_: well, you can always add them to the flickr pool
<coz_> thorwil,  ok
<l3on> Hi all.. does someone of you know where I can find this accessibility icon? â http://pricklytech.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/ubuntu-boot-01.png
<thorwil> coz_: for xubuntu only if it makes regarding the "performance" theme
<coz_> l3on,  you mean the keyboard and person in circle thingy?
<l3on> person in circle, yes
<coz_> looks easy enough to make
<coz_> let me check online
<l3on> thank you coz_
<thorwil> maybe part of the ubuntu-mono dark/light theme, found in /usr/share/icons?
<thorwil> maybe hidden in some gdm specific place
 * thorwil goes for a walk
<coz_> l3on,  looks like this icon done in greyscale    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/icon-help.svg
<coz_> l3on,  did you want that in black and white?
<coz_> l3on,  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/accessibility.svg
<l3on> coz_: thank you so much :))))
<coz_> good day al
<coz_> darkmatter,  I tried that thing for firefox from git for global menu but..it keeps reverting back :(
<coz_> global menu does strange things to gnome panel here
<darkmatter> oO
<coz_> darkmatter,  with global menu ,,,here at least...when I right click to move an applet on the panel...it disappears
<coz_> darkmatter,  but if I remove global menu from the system all is right :(
<coz_> I dont like mac like things anyway
<darkmatter> odd.
<coz_> darkmatter,   yeah ...global menu never worked right for me
<coz_> darkmatter,  no biggie   :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  however...the way the google page looked on that screenshot was very very nice :)
<darkmatter> coz_: the only reason I use it is because I don't like menus, as odd as it sounds (using a menu to get rid of menus. lol), but there really isn't any other way to universally ditch them without coding a crapload of replacement apps ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure and I understand
<coz_> darkmatter,  maybe you will like   compiz/unity
<darkmatter> probably. as long as it's not gnome-shell. that thing is horrid (not so much the design, although I have issues with it, but performance)
<coz_> darkmatter,  it isnt gnome shell...canonical has decided to drop mutter and replace it with compiz for 11.04  which apparenltyh is going to have the netbook inerface as default
<coz_> darkmatter,  not gnome interface
<coz_> darkmatter,  how did you get the "Google"   to be grey scale?
<darkmatter> I can run vista/7 (not super grat, have to force compositing, but fairly snappy for an 'unsupported' card). gnome shell runs (pretty much literally) at approx 1000x slower xD
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I sure hope gnome-shell falls by the way side
<coz_> it sucks so far
<darkmatter> coz_: I know it's clutter free silly. I said its *not* the shell, which is why I'll likely accept it
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh I imisunderstood
<darkmatter> coz_: and the main reason it sucks is clutter. I used to go into long winded rants about clutter (long before the shell came along), but then I ran out of breath :P
<coz_> darkmatter, :)
<darkmatter> coz_: oh, and about the greyscale google. that's a fully customized start-page (local), it just queries google (or bing, wikipedia, whatever is selected (can be changed) for the results. it's a mod of Infinise Go
<darkmatter> coz_: http://go.infinise.com/ click the "i" in the lower right corner, has a link to the source
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh thanks
<coz_> oooo nice
<darkmatter> np
<darkmatter> hover over the logo to select an engine
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok how to change the "google" logo colour?
<coz_> I will try to figure it out :)
<darkmatter> coz_: look in the sources (after downloading) the ingine banners are just images ;D
<coz_> oo cool
<darkmatter> combo images/css. fairly straight forward to work with
<coz_> darkmatter,  very nice :")
<darkmatter> coz_: yup. I'm going to do something really different though (when I have the time)with some js fun. I'm going to make a start page that just isint the web that'll replace the normal menu crap on the panel \o/
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool :)  let me know  :)
<darkmatter> coz_: either by imbedding webkit or gecko or just using tricks to hide the browser ui for the page. but places and favs and searches etc (start of an experiment before coding actual "centers" for stuff
<coz_> darkmatter,  sounds cool...
<coz_>  darkmatter  I really like this google thingy... very very nice,,, I really appreciate it pointing this out to me :)  of course this is usual procedure between you and me :)
<darkmatter> coz_: and later today I'm beginning work on the basis for it all. a neo-retro semi-minimal theme (I'm pretty sure I talked about my design ideas before) that incorporates thing I miss about old-school OS's but updated and reimagined to go with all the crazy code I'll be working on
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes you have talked about it
<coz_> darkmatter,   I always like your ideas
<coz_> darkmatter,  so I am sure you will do it  and I will use it :)
<darkmatter> coz_: like "real" window management ala beos, amiga, next, etc
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  we had discussion about ...ooo may 10 months ago in #compiz about creating a new window decorator...I brought up BeOs tabbed windows with moveable tabs...othe broght up moveable title bars
<coz_> darkmatter,  it started out well but then died off :(
<darkmatter> coz_: one of the design influences is fictional though (well, semi fictional), lol. it's the SolarOS from Tron/Tron: Legacy :P
<darkmatter> coz_: http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5247/5211533815_f21c117b40_b.jpg <-- take that for starters :P
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> then toss in be, have shelves (ala the app level shelves in next's workspace) and other similar OS's. toss in centralized access for related activities and data (the centers I was talking about. doesn't matter where stuff is (local and online included), just matters "what" it is, etc etc. but a nice modern skinning. sudo techy, yet friendly and modern. I think you get the general idea
<coz_> :)  yes I always understand your visuals :)
<coz_> darkmatter,   I have to break here...family stuff...excuse me...I will be back in a bit
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-11-25
<FMooncry> hey people
<FMooncry> need some help
<FMooncry> I'm thinking of building a SteamPunk Unity theme
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-11-27
<bluebomber> I read the trademark policy and logo usage guidelines for ubuntu, but I'm still not sure: Would it be ok to print vinyl or fabric 3'x6' ubuntu banners just like the LoCos receive?
<bluebomber> (I am unsure mainly because one part of the guidelines states your materials cannot imply an official affiliation with Ubuntu if you haven't received permission from the council)
<Flannel> bluebomber: Depends on what you're using it for.  Is this for your LoCo or something similar? or something else?
<bluebomber> Flannel, Yes, kinda. A student organization at my university.
<bluebomber> Right now, I'm just borrowing the vinyl banner from our LoCo leader when I can, but he lives 3+ hours from where I live.
<Flannel> bluebomber: Sounds like you're affiliated with that LoCo then?
<bluebomber> I am, but our student organization events aren't organized by the loco
<bluebomber> I am a member of the LoCo, yes.
<Flannel> I meant "you" as in the organization.  At the very least, they approve of your activities, etc?
<bluebomber> Well, no, our organization isn't really affiliated with the loco. The loco supplied us with the banner and some CDs for a couple events we had. We're on good grounds, but we're not a "Ubuntu@USF" organization.
<bluebomber> Yes, the loco approves of the events in which they helped.
<Flannel> bluebomber: Even unapproved LoCos are able to use the Ubuntu moniker when describing themselves.  If you're worried about your shindig being substantially different than an unapproved Loco, you should associate this student organization with the LoCo in some fashion, be a student branch or something.  I'm sure you can wordsmith something.
<Flannel> bluebomber: Hmm, So, maybe I should ask.  Is this like an Ubuntu group at the uni? or what?
<bluebomber> Flannel, no, it's a computer science student organization. Nothing dedicated to Ubuntu per se, but many of us support and advocate ubuntu.
<Flannel> bluebomber: So, are you just interested in mentioning Ubuntu on something? or what?  Obviously your organization isn't going to have Ubuntu in the title
<bluebomber> Flannel: lol.
<bluebomber> Back to step one: Hi, I'd like to print an Ubuntu banner like the ones that the LoCos get. May I?
<bluebomber> Flannel: We've already had two events related to Ubuntu in which we have advocated Ubuntu.
<bluebomber> It would have been nice to have a banner.
<Flannel> bluebomber: Those banners just say "Ubuntu", so yeah, you're welcome to have the word "Ubuntu" displayed
<bluebomber> Flannel, that's all I want. I was even trying to see if I could purchase one straight from Canonical.
<Flannel> bluebomber: as far as I know, no, they're not selling them.
<bluebomber> Flannel: I couldn't find them for sale anywhere, which is why I wanted to know if orgs/individuals could print their own.
