#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-10
<ailo> holstein: How are things going?
<holstein> not bad ailo :)
<holstein> and you
<holstein> ?
<ailo> Fine. Just recovering from my aunties birthday party. Did you do any more firewire testing?
<holstein> not yet
<holstein> i have some things i need to mix down
<holstein> i'll try and do some of the work over in natty
<holstein> with the -lowlatency kernel
<holstein> see how the performance is
<ailo> Sounds like a good idea.
<ailo> Live mixes?
<holstein> well, we recorded live
<holstein> at a friends house
<holstein> i put it up for the singer to check out
<holstein> a rough mix of the whole session
<holstein> just one big track
<holstein> http://holstein.shacknet.nu/melody/
<ailo> Nice vocals
<holstein> ailo: yeahh
<holstein> she's alright
<holstein> im not crazy about the material
<holstein> but its not bad
<ailo> Sounds very traditional.
<holstein> its in the neighborhood of what i do
<holstein> raonyguimaraes: are you on the mailing list?
<holstein> the IRC channels tend to be a bit dead
<holstein> mailing list are more active
<raonyguimaraes> not yet, I will subscribe where I can see what's going on ?
<holstein> ScottL is who you need to talk to
<raonyguimaraes> ok thank you
<holstein> let me get some links going
<holstein> raonyguimaraes: are you already a buntu dev?
<raonyguimaraes> not really, I just use ubuntu for a long time and decided to start helping... 
<holstein> cool
<holstein> i was trying to decide what i can link you
<holstein> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio
<raonyguimaraes> let me take a look
<holstein> you'll want
<holstein> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<holstein> maybe the users list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
<holstein> raonyguimaraes: welcome :)
<holstein> might take a bit to figure out what going on
<holstein> ScottL is quite active
<holstein> if you can hang for a bit, or check back
<holstein> raonyguimaraes: you might also want to find and meet falktx
<holstein> the KXstudio guy
<raonyguimaraes> I saw his blog and some video he made as well
<raonyguimaraes> thank you holstein ...
<raonyguimaraes> Where I can read the e-mails that were sent ?
<holstein> http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/ maybe?
<holstein> raonyguimaraes: i wouldnt sweat it too much
<holstein> hopefully we'll make some new news soon :)
<raonyguimaraes> great
<ScottL> raonyguimaraes, hi, i wanted to touch base with you to say that i am very interested and excited that you want to help us :)
<raonyguimaraes> cool man :) hope I can help !
<ScottL> raonyguimaraes, unfortunately, i need to go to bed already, but i will be around for most of the day tomorrow and will try to catch you then and we can talk further
<raonyguimaraes> all right ... I will be online tomorrow and almost 24h this week !
<raonyguimaraes> Good night!
<holstein> w00t :)
<ScottL> i found bugs for the "drop to sigterm" during installation and for a kernel panic during installation that i have been experiencing trying to get a natty installation so i can fix the "unity/gnome-session" issue
<ScottL> hi rlameiro , how are you this morning?
<rlameiro> sleepy but great
<rlameiro> its raining... I hate when it rains so much but welll, what to do
<rlameiro>  :D
<ScottL> previous couple of days had been raining for us, i'm glad today wasn't since i took my daughter to school this morning
 * ScottL is taking a week of vacation this week :)
<rlameiro> ScottL: great
<ScottL> hi Raony, i have some time right now to talk when you are ready
<ScottL> rlameiro, yeah, i'm hoping to make some progress for natty _if-i-can-get-a-working-install-of-natty-running_  :madface:
<rlameiro> yeah
<rlameiro> I will try to test some firewire also. lets see what happens
<ScottL> rlameiro: holstein and ailo have been working on it pretty diligently, you might talk to them first and see where they are at
<ScottL> apparently firewire has been broken since maverick :(
<rlameiro> yeah. i need to test it with my edirol
<rlameiro> My usb card is broken in maverick too, didnt had a chanve to test it on natty yet
<rlameiro> *chance
<ScottL> i also think that the tasksel is broken (or at least fracture) in natty as well
<ScottL> from what i've seen it looks like there are more choices than were intended :(
<ScottL> more fun to work through :/
<ailo> It would be great to get to the bottom of that. The picture I have so fat is, that firewire does not work on either Maverick or Natty without Aboganis -lowlatency kernel for Natty.
<ailo> (..so far* is,..)
<ailo> But, I suppose the generic kernel on Natty is not to be recommended anyway, because of RT_GROUP_SCHED being enabled
<ailo> A guy on ffado mail list claims that he had no problems getting his audiofire card working on Maverick, but that the firewire mixer won't work with that version of ffado.
<ScottL> ailo, i'm glad you understand more of that than i do :)
<ailo> ScottL: Don't know if I understand so much, more so I'm just collecting info to try determine which works and which doesn't. Interesting to see if realtime will be accessed in a different way with future jack releases. As for firewire, I have no idea why it's not working on Maverick.
<ailo> holstein: do you follow what happens on the ffado list?
<ScottL> ailo, it has been suggested that ubuntu studio is borked because it doesn't have a dedicated, specialized kernel
<ScottL> and i agree with the sentiment, if not the statement
<ScottL> but what price for working within ubuntu
<abogani> ScottL: borked?
<holstein> ailo: eh
<holstein> about half
<ailo> ScottL: The -lowlatency kernel seems like the perfect allround kernel to replace a generic kernel for music production.
<holstein> abogani: o/ :)
<ailo> holstein: just looking for a post, hold on.
<abogani> ScottL: Which features should that "specialized" kernel offer?
<holstein> abogani: i finally have maverick and natty installs for testing kernels
<abogani> holstein: :-)
<holstein> abogani: you're not planning on RT anymore though right?
<holstein> im going to try and do some actual work in natty today with your -lowlatency kernel
<ailo> holstein: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=COL105-W52B12D342E8EDF1F3C84D0900E0%40phx.gbl&forum_name=ffado-user ..
<holstein> seems promising with my presonus firepod :)
<abogani> holstein: Do you need of it?
<ailo> Check one of the last posts, by Richter
<holstein> abogani: as of lucid, i did
<holstein> in a bad way
<holstein> but, your latest -lowlatency might be OK
<holstein> and, i think thats the direction we're going
<ailo> abogani: I would like to find out, how big the difference between the two is. For live music, we like to have around 5-10 ms latency, which depending on the machine is quite hard to get.
<holstein> ailo: wow, ricoh chip in that first post
<holstein> i only have one ricoh chip
<holstein> and it xruns like crazy
<abogani> I'm waiting to update RT kernel because *seems* that finally upstream have decided to update it to (perhaps) 2.6.37.
<holstein> ScottL abogani , i like the idea of having the -lowlatency kernel .deb somewhere in natty on the disc
<holstein> and -RT too
<holstein> if that is still on the table
<holstein> abogani: let me know if i can test something here
<holstein> i feel like RT is optimal for firewire
<abogani> holstein: the maintenance effort for the first one is very low (anyone could do the job) but it very high for -realtime.
<abogani> I don't want fight against Ubuntu Kernel Team again.
<abogani> As discussed with ScottL we think to provide -realtime in any case but only trought PPA.
<holstein> abogani: COOL
<holstein> i thought maybe you got frustrated and dropped it
<holstein> *understandably so
<ailo> holstein: I was thinking of the problems searching with firewire, to try determine why it is not working
<ailo> On a post Richter gives a couple of commands to try determine what is wrong
<ailo> There's also an alternative command to start jackd
<holstein> i suppose i could try them
<ailo> If you have time to poke around with firewire on both Maverick and Natty, maybe you could contact the guys over there
<holstein> all i did was change to abogani 's kernel
<holstein> and boom
<holstein> it worked
<ailo> Could be something simple
<ailo> Would be great to have it in writing, so to speak.
<holstein> yup, agreed
<holstein> i'll see how envolved i can get with that
<holstein> seems like rlameiro has more time now too
<holstein> to help with FW testing
<ailo> I will try to get asmo involved too
<ailo> Gotta walk the dog. Nice chatting again..
<holstein> ailo: w00t :)
<ScottL> abogani, i mean that it takes additional tweaking to "fix" it so that it works
<ScottL> abogani, and it would be one aspect if there was a initial script that brought up a dialouge box and said "Make it AWESOME!  Just click this button"
<ScottL> abogani, and -rt or -lowlatency was installed, settings were adjusted, and firewire works like bananas
<ScottL> abogani, so it isn't so much additional features as it is the rest of the kernel flags perhaps set judicially to work better for audio
 * ScottL is still readind backscroll
<ScottL> holstein, we can only include packages on the disc that are in the repositories
<ailo> ScottL: I think the Ubuntustudio controls could do that. Haven't started doing anything yet, but at least firewire should be no problem to set up.
<ScottL> abogani, some of the problem might be the new kernel and ffado stack which understandably will need some tweaking under the hood after it's first implementation
<ScottL> ailo, you will have a "make it AWESOME!" button ;)
<ailo> ScottL: There could be some "system test" thing on it, if one wants.
<ScottL> ailo, i kid, but i do seriously thank you for looking into it :)
<holstein> ScottL: how can we get around that
<holstein> ?
<holstein> im seeing some F.U.D.
<holstein> on the mailing list
<holstein> that i tend to agree with in a small way
<ailo> I would like to determine what the problem is with firewire first, since it does not really need any more tweaing than before, at least on Aboganis kernel.
<ailo> twaking*
<ailo> tweaking*
<ScottL> ailo, can you run a diff between -generic source and abogani's -lowlatency kernel?
<ScottL> ailo, we can expect some differences of course, some of the other changes might provide us with clues
<ScottL> ailo, just a suggestion
<ailo> ScottL: From what I understand, Aboganis kernel is the generic kernel, but configured differently. There are some options before compilation that are done differently.
<ailo> So, it's not patched. It doesn't include any extra code
<ScottL> holstein, i think the currently most viable method to include other kernels is to have a PPA setup with ubuntustudio-controls (or other methodology) enable the repo
<ScottL> ailo, hmmm, i think you are right :(
<holstein> ScottL: we can have abogani 's PPA setup out of the box?
<ailo> Scott: Or is -lowlatency a vanilla kernel, in which case it doesn't include Ubuntu Scpecific stuff? Trying to find that out.
<ScottL> holstein, i think we would need to adjust a package to add it to sources.list
<ScottL> holstein, this may not be the only install vector, perhaps persia, jussi, JuniperJaxx, paultag, or TheMuso might have a different answer
<ailo> ScottL: Can't we add things like that to Ubuntustudio settings? PPA's, that is.
<ailo> Then try to do some kind of wizard, that let's you install the kernel.
<ailo> Though, adding the PPA's can also be done from a wizard.
<ailo> Well, Abogani could of course clarify this to us some more, but since the -lowlatency kernel is listed here, I assume it is a reconfigured Ubuntu kernel, not a Vanilla kernel.
<ailo> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
<ailo> ScottL: We could just start with making a script, that adds the user to audio group, fixes firewire, makes sure /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf exists. All the basic stuff. Once we have all the desired functions in place, we decide where or how to add them.
<ailo> Also, adding PPA and installing kernel
<ailo> Ending with a reboot..
<ScottL> ailo, that could be inlcuded in the ubuntustudio-controls package, this could also include a gui to moderate these settings as well
<ailo> ScottL: Actually, I see all of this is already been proposed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<ailo> But, a script would still be the best place to start, to do testing and so on.
<ailo> The ultimate solution I think would be to get a popup when starting jackd and something in the system was not properly set up. qjackctl can use a script at startup to do that.
<ailo> I'm not an expert in scripting, but I can mock something up. I'll get back on that.
<ScottL> ailo, cool :)  i look forward to seeing what you come up with
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-11
<ScottL>  hi AutoStatic  :)
<AutoStatic> Hello ScottL
<ScottL> abogani, my comments yesterday were not directed at your work, i want you to understand that
<ScottL> abogani, they are more derived from frustration of not being able to include a kernel that we know works and works well with -rt
<ScottL> abogani, of course some of the current issues might be derived by a confluence of activities including the new firewire stack and the cgroups issues
<ScottL> ailo,  how is your work on -controls moving along?
<ScottL> astraljava, are you getting close to helping with backporting?  i think in a week i'll be in full swing for it :)
<ScottL> morning paultag  :)
<paultag> morning ScottL :)
<paultag> ScottL: How goes, my friend?
 * abogani waves all
<paultag> heyya ab	
<ScottL> persia, still no movement on the new kernel documentation for getting -lowlatency into natty :(
<paultag> abogani *
<paultag> ScottL: damn, still?
<ScottL> paultag, i'm doing well, taking a week of vacation and hoping to get some ubuntu studio development done :)
<paultag> ScottL: :)
<abogani> ScottL: I accept any types of comments. :-)
<ScottL> paultag, yes, i'm getting a little frustrated with it myself and worried that the -lowlatency will not make it into natty :(
<paultag> it's getting really late
<paultag> ScottL: is anyone on the kernel team engaged with it?
<ScottL> abogani, i know you readily receive any comments :) 
<ScottL> abogani, part of my frustration derives from the combination of having to align kernels with desktop and then not having -lowlatency in the repos
<ScottL> abogani, the second is from new and unexpected problems, but that is something we can work through and can't really be expected to be resolved before we experience them
<ScottL> paultag, yes, but i forget his name and can't find the blueprint currently, although i have it bookmarked _somewhere_
<paultag> ScottL: humm
<ScottL> paultag,  apparently it's andy whitecraft
<ScottL> whitcroft
<paultag> ah
<ScottL> the bug is: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<ScottL> err, not bug but blueprint
<abogani> I suspect that JFo and diwic are also informed about that.
<paultag> ScottL: just had a talk in another channel about it abogani 
 * JFo reads back
<paultag> wow, that was an odd ping
<ScottL> paultag,  the is the  part:  [apw] document how to build a new derivative flavour/branch:TODO
<ScottL> this provides a vector for us to get -lowlatency into the repos so it can ship on the ubuntu studio disc
<paultag> ScottL: looks like the kerenel work is on us, not the kernel tea
<paultag> team *
<ScottL> paultag,  yes, but the kernel team was to provide documentation framework to do so that was acceptable with the team
 * JFo takes a look at the blueprint
<paultag> sorry to rag on you there JFo 
<JFo> paultag, no sweat
<JFo> :)
<paultag> :)
<ScottL> JFo, paultag: thank you both for taking time to help work with this :D   i appreciate it
<JFo> no problem
<JFo> like I told paultag, I only wish I could help you guys more
<paultag> ScottL: no problem, I'm in here for a reason :)
<paultag> true that.
 * JFo has apw here nearby. I will chat with him between meetings to see what the timeline looks like for that documentation
<JFo> given the enormous amount of work we are in the middle of anything is possible
<paultag> JFo: you're a rockstar, my man. Are you in TX?
<JFo> paultag, I am in texas... the rockstar bit is in question though ;-)
<paultag> JFo: I've seen those videos
<JFo> hahahaha
<JFo> my sincere apologies :)
<paultag> :P
<paultag> hahaha
<JFo> ScottL, I suspect the documentation may have more to do with where to put the derivative in the archives etc. but I will get a full description.
<ScottL> JFo, i'm also in texas, montgomery actually which is to the west of conroe or northwest of houston
<paultag> JFo: in theory applying the patch should be the easy part. In theory.
<ScottL> JFo,  re: documentation, that sounds like what i expected from my conversations with persia, it wasn't a HOWTO but more of "this is the form that we would like to see it"
<ScottL> paultag, my understanding from abogani is that the -lowlatency kernel doesn't require a patch
<JFo> paultag, not from what I have seen :-/. The patch is huge, but it is also very version specific. There is an effort to have all of the rt bits in each kernel in, hopefully, 5 releases or so
<JFo> but I think upstream is being optimistic
<ScottL> paultag, JFo:   i don't think we are trying to get the -rt kernel into the repositories, i think we only focusing on the -lowlatency currently
<JFo> right
<ScottL> paultag, JFo: therefore i believe there shouldn't be a patch required
<paultag> really?
<abogani> really
<JFo> but when I inquired at plumber's thinking I could help somehow, I was told that the lowlatency had a similarly invasive patching scheme
<paultag> so it's lieterally just a build flag change?
<paultag> literally *
<JFo> hmmm
<paultag> JFo: I thought so too
 * JFo is chatting about it in the team
<JFo> one sec...
<ScottL> paultag, that is my understanding from abogani, i.e. "just a build flag change"
<paultag> damn, cool.
<JFo> so there are config changes needed
<holstein> ScottL: so, what needs to happen to get -lowlatency in the repo ?
<abogani> only
<JFo> and several frequency modifications
<abogani> ScottL: I must go. Please let me know any news.
<paultag> JFo: but that's a simle config delta against stock, right?
<holstein> abogani: o/
<holstein> laterx
<JFo> paultag, seems to be
<paultag> humm
<JFo> we are still discussing
<paultag> sure, JFo. I'm going to run to meet up with some friends for lunch. I'll read back later
<paultag> JFo: thanks so much for looking into it, man
<paultag> JFo: I owe you a beer, for sure
<JFo> my pleasure
<paultag> cheers, all!
<ScottL> holstein, andy whitcroft was working on documentation for getting kernel derivatives/variants into the repos, but he hasn't completed it yet
<ScottL> holstein, but it might be that there was a significant misunderstanding on the request
<ScottL> holstein, it appears that the kernel team expected ubuntu studio to require a significant and invasive patch
<ScottL> holstein, abogani asserts that only compile time flags needs to be set
<ScottL> holstein, hopefully this streamlines the entire process :)
<ScottL> again, thank you paultag and JFo , you guys rock! (scottl gives $0.05 to the jono licensing fund)
<JFo> lol
<JFo> my pleasure ScottL 
<holstein> ScottL: this is the kind of disconnect that alio and i have been discussing
<holstein> im glad to see some discussion and movement :)
<holstein> the current generic kernel is natty is not viable for our needs
<ScottL> holstein, yes, i hope this is the break that gets it moving :)
<ScottL> holstein, i haven't seen raony since the other night, i hope he comes back and at least tells us why he was frustrated with ubuntu studio
<ScottL> we can't address what we don't know if frustrating people :(
<ScottL> holstein, you don't perhaps know his ubuntu forums name or have an email address, i'd happily pursue him and talk directly to get his knowledge or to secure his help
<holstein> raony = alio?
<holstein> i think folks are mis-informed about the kernel
<holstein> and i can understand why
<holstein> to be honest, i think it was interepid or jaunty?
<holstein> when US did not have an RT kernel installed by default
<holstein> and i was still learning, and not coming on the IRC
<holstein> i did not undertand how to install the RT kernel from the repo even
<holstein> or what that meant
<holstein> SO i just used 64studio for a while
<holstein> im glad i came back to US
<holstein> but i imagine some of the frustration wanting an out of the box awesome audio solution
<holstein> and not knowing what is going on with the generic kernel to be more RT friendly
<holstein> AND its not like you can get a LIVE CD of US and see how the kernel works with JACK and your hardware
<JFo> ok, so the amount of items that need to be changed depends on what you want to get out of your kernel...
<JFo> it can be as simple as one flag and as complex as you want it
<JFo> apparently :)
<ScottL> holstein, i'm talking about raonyguimaraes, i don't think that's ailo as well (but i could be wrong)
<holstein> ScottL: hmmm, i'll see if i can figure out who that is
<ailo> ailo = ailo
<ailo> ScottL: I'm not doing anything on the Ubuntucontrols at the moment, but I sketched out a script that is supposed to do all of what is proposed here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<ailo> I'm still waiting to hear about firewire, how that is set up.
<holstein> AI lo
<holstein> i was wondering why auto complete wasnt happening
<holstein> i thought you were out ;)
<holstein> ailo: you need something from me for that?
<ailo> holstein: doesn't need to be you, but if you have time..
<holstein> i should have time today
<holstein> if i get the rig setup
<holstein> ill ping you
<ailo> Just a step by step on how to get firewire working on Natty.
<holstein> and if you're here, we can knock that out
<holstein> ailo: yeah, i want to look at all the steps with you
<holstein> that i usually do
<holstein> and try to do the shortest route that works
<ailo> Should be simple enough. I'm guessing you need to be in audio group and add the udev rules file. You have the link?
<ailo> http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/ffado.git;a=blob_plain;f=debian/60-ffado.rules
<ailo> But, please try without the udev rules first, just in case they aren't needed. I really have no idea how that works.
<JFo> ScottL, sounds like apw had a chat with persia at some point concerning the documentation.
<JFo> it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone)
<JFo> so I don't have a good answer for when you can expect the docs I am afraid. :-/
<falktx> ailo: i want to help here
<falktx> ailo: i know how to code and should be easy enough
<falktx> ailo: but I use Qt, (PyQt)
<ailo> falktx: You mean Ubuntustudiocontrols? By all means, if you like. It would be a bit sweaty for me.
<ailo> falktx: will it require extra libs?
<falktx> ailo: the mockup looks nice, and fairly easy to implement
<falktx> ailo: just python-qt4
<falktx> afaik, comes pre-installed
<falktx> i would add a tab for config audio plugins paths
<falktx> and remove the wireless thing
<ScottL> JFo, ah, okay. thanks for the update :)
<ailo> Yfalktx: es, and I dont' know about System Scan either.
<ScottL> falktx, ailo: which mockup?
<falktx> ScottL: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/USC.pdf
<falktx> system scan seems like a nice feature for me
<ScottL> falktx, ailo:  that's rlameiro's before we really decided on what needed to be in -controls
<ScottL> not saying don't use it, just don't feel like that's THE form it needs to be in or ALL that needs to be included
<falktx> ScottL: so you know exactly what is needed ?
<JFo> ScottL, no problem
<ScottL> falktx, heh, that's a really good question!  not really, we've bounced ideas back and forth
<ailo> ScottL: I'm sure nothing unnecessary will end up there..
<falktx> It could help if I had a list of stuff that needs configure
<falktx> let me write down now the ideas
<falktx> 1  - system-scan
<ailo> falktx: We're just been working on the firewire bit, me and holstein.
<falktx> 2 - wine setup (wineasio, wine-rt, etc)
<ScottL> falktx, we talked about the items under ubuntustudio-controls: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
<falktx> ailo: nice
<falktx> ScottL: 2010may16 ??
<ScottL> falktx, yes, rlameiro started but got hung up on something trying to update -controls
 * ScottL acknowledges ubuntu studio really, really needs some developers :(
<falktx> ScottL: i know my plans for kxstudio
<falktx> ScottL: i'll start to make the welcome/config tools soon, so...
<ScottL> hi quadrispro :)
<ScottL> ubuntustudio-controls:
<ScottL> he had considered adding a way to enable a standard ubuntustudio-dev PPA for -rt kenerl
<ScottL> also adding the user to audio group (might not be needed anymore)
<ScottL> also enabling raw1394 (might not be needed anymore)
<falktx> ScottL: well, i think it is
<ailo> Me too
<ailo> At least audio group
<falktx> err
<falktx> ScottL: we need someone who understand this more than we do
<ScottL> also adding a quick and consolidated way to add: flash, mp3 codec, et al restricted formats commonly used
<ailo> falktx: no, it hasn't changed
<ailo> falktx: except for the new firewire stack
<falktx> ailo: i read about it, it seems it can access firewire without the need of a udev rule, right?
<ScottL> falktx, ailo: if we view -controls in the sense of someone coming from vanilla ubuntu, then i think adding user to audio group is still a necessity
<ailo> falktx: rt will not work on the generic kernel, but on Aboganis, it's just like before
<falktx> ScottL: how can jack work in realtime if an user is not in audio group??
<ailo> falktx: ScottL: We still need audio group. That hasn't changed
<ailo> I think what ScottL is referring to is how jack may use realtime in the future, because of how kernels are configured.
<ailo> But that is not a problem yet. Not on Aboganis kernel
<ScottL> falktx, exactly!  but if one installs vanilla ubuntu and then adds studio packages by hand, the user will not be in the audio group automatically
<ScottL> falktx, -controls will let them do this from a unified location
<falktx> oh, wait...
 * falktx still thinks he is in 2010!
<falktx> lol
<ScottL> ailo, i believe the audio group is installs automatically, just if one installs vanilla ubuntu and then installs studio packages then the use needs to be added to it
<ailo> ScottL: Yes.
<ailo> ScottL: Wait, err
<falktx> ScottL: I'll work on a mockup today
<falktx> yep
<falktx> btw, is it me, or many packages just fail to build on natty?
<falktx> I got so many PPA build fails for natty, while maverick and lucid are fine...
<ailo> ScottL: I don't know if the audio group is added automatically. But user needs to put itself manually to the group.
<falktx> ailo: it only happens when installling US from ISO
<falktx> in all other cases, user has to do it manually
<ailo> falktx: A simple script can check that, right. So adding that to the -controls is not so hard.
<falktx> yep
<quadrispro> ehya guys
<quadrispro> happy new year!
<falktx> hey quadrispro
<ScottL> ailo, from my experience before with lucid and maverick and installing vanilla ubuntu, the audio group was there already, this might have changed for natty of course
<ScottL> hi quadrispro 
<quadrispro> falktx, I remember we were taking a look at festige, isn't it?
<quadrispro> ScottL, have you got my mail?
<ailo> ScottL: I'm sure it hasn't changed then. I usually install from vanilla.
<falktx> ScottL: the audio groups is there, but the user needs to add itself to it
<falktx> quadrispro: yes, I got lazy...
<falktx> quadrispro: i need to update festige again, I learned some new stuff I would like to implement there...
<falktx> ailo: btw, here's a screen of my current work -> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr100.jpg
<falktx> ailo: it's a GUI for ladish (and jack patchbay), uses pyqt4
<ailo> falktx: Looks nice.
<quadrispro> falktx, and it would be good to get in touch with fst's mainstream developer
<falktx> quadrispro: he got angry at me...
<quadrispro> falktx, ??
<falktx> quadrispro: I made a patch for ladi lv1 support, then he went mad
<quadrispro> ah! ladi
<falktx> quadrispro: he said kinda 'ladish sucks'
<quadrispro> lol
<falktx> quadrispro: festige uses that custom fst (with my own patches), so it's not a very good idea to talk to the original author...
<quadrispro> I don't know, I haven't looked again, I know that it would take the place of lash
<falktx> quadrispro: I'll soon add support for 'ghostess' too, so that I can have dssi-vst with jack-midi
 * falktx has lots of stuff to do
<ScottL> quadrispro, i'm not sure, when did you sent it?
<quadrispro> falktx, eh, ok, but I've been thinking to import the original fst source into debian first
<quadrispro> ScottL, mmmh.. gmail says 12/31/10 (11 days ago)
<ScottL> quadrispro, did you mean in response to my email?  if so, then yes i got it, sorry for not responding
<falktx> quadrispro: fst has a branch with jack-session support, so you might wanna use that
<ScottL> oh yes, 12/31
<ScottL> i kept meaning to respond :(   sorry about that
<quadrispro> falktx, so I'll try to mail with fst's author before working on festige
<quadrispro> ScottL, no worries! :)
<quadrispro> falktx, I've seen, but... does it work?
<quadrispro> really?
<falktx> quadrispro: i haven't tried yet
<quadrispro> I remember that upstream seem'd not very active
<falktx> quadrispro: but my version does work with ladish pretty well
<falktx> quadrispro: yeah, there are no recent commits
<falktx> quadrispro: btw, I packaged ladish for ubuntu
<quadrispro> falktx, the bad news is: Debian does not have ladish :)
<quadrispro> (for now)
<falktx> quadrispro: i sent it to revu, but no one commented
<quadrispro> falktx, well, I'll take a look
 * falktx remembers why he uses PPAs so much
<quadrispro> falktx lol, I see :)
<falktx> quadrispro: you're free to use that package for debian
<quadrispro> falktx, there was a discussion in pkg-multimedia ML about "do we want ladish or not?"
<falktx> quadrispro: just note that final v0.3 has been released
<falktx> quadrispro: ladish is the best session handler that ever existed for linux, sadly not everyone sees that
<falktx> ladish does much more than what jack-session does
<quadrispro> falktx, well, please turn up on pkg-multimedia and say: "Ehy guys! Ladish rocks and my package is ready for reviewing"
<falktx> quadrispro: hm, but I'll leave soon
<falktx> I hate not having internet at home
<quadrispro> falktx, tomorrow or later, no worries
<quadrispro> persia, ehy man! how are you?
<ScottL> quadrispro, i encouraged falktx to try to push ladish to debian instead of REVU :/
<ScottL> debian multimedia team is so much more aggressive and pervasive to get packages in
<ScottL> at least for audio packages (i have little to no experience with non-audio packages)
<ScottL> quadrispro, also i haven't used ladish, but my limited experience with jack-session is disappointing
<ScottL> i don't know if i should expect more from jack-session in the future, but i believe ladish already delivers much of what users desire
<ScottL> falktx, did you see my email about debian multimedia team and audio menu?
<ScottL> falktx, i doubt they will get anything fixed before natty and since we already have a hack for ubuntustudio-menu
<ScottL> falktx, perhaps we should go whole hog and do something like avlinux or dreamstudio (or even kxstudio) and fix the menu to help users
<holstein> im for that for 12.04 for sure
<holstein> if the changes dont trickle down
<holstein> by then
<ScottL> TheMuso, how's the work on unity accessibility going along?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Its coming along a little quicker now that we have some more people helping out. Its too much for one person. :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, oh, i bet it was/is, but i'm glad you have help
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'm frightfully ignorant about accessibility, are you able to use anything from gnome?
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> it also seems that the "sigterm" restart during installation was an alternate installation problem which has since been resolved :)
<ScottL> now i can finish up the gnome-session as default xsession issue
<ScottL> BUT now it also seems that the tasksel options are borked :(
<ScottL> i'll start on that after the xsession issue
<ailo> ScottL: Just my opinion, but seems like there's no need for so many tasksels.
<ScottL> ailo, there shouldn't be so many ;)   just five
<ScottL> 1. graphics
<ScottL> 2. video
<ScottL> 3. audio recording
<ScottL> 4. tone generation
<ScottL> 5. plugins
<ScottL> although i can't imagine a use case were someone selected either audio recording or tone generation and _wouldn't_ want the plugins
<ailo> ScottL: That's what I thought too.
<ailo> Usually one selects the whole thing for testing, or to save time
<ScottL> just for reference: audio recording would be recording actual instruments and/or bands
<ScottL> tone generation would include synths and sequencers
<ScottL> ailo,  :)
<ailo> tone generation seems like an odd term, too.
<ailo> I would go with instruments, normally, but sequencers are included in that
<TheMuso> ScottL: Yes, I use GNOME full time.
<ScottL> ailo, the nomenclature can be updated if we had a better suggestion ;)
<ScottL> but persia helped me with it and that was the best we could come up with at the time
<ailo> ScottL: Either a big all-in-one, or a ubuntustudio showcase tasksel, I think.
<ailo> But, not so important, maybe
<ailo> Most people do whatever they want, anyway
<ailo> When installing
<ailo> By all-in-one, one for audio, one for video, one for graphics
<ScottL> ailo, i may be wrong, but i think a large majority of users tends to focus on either recording audio (from instruments) or sequencers/synths
<ScottL> that's not to say that overlap doesn't exist, i'm sure it does
<paultag> ScottL: you say you need developers, eh?
<ScottL> but this will let the users who just do one or other to control which applications are installed better and unclutter the menu
<ScottL> paultag, aye!
<ailo> ScottL: I have the feeling a lot has to do with the menu, in a way
<paultag> ScottL: well, I'm done with a CS major at my Uni, and love to code. Just point me where
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah, things should clear up in a few days.
<ScottL> paultag, two things that effect ubuntu studio fairly drastically, although it's only a little coding but more troubleshooting i believe
<ScottL> paultag, the first is we need to make sure that the gnome-session is chosen as the default xsession instead of unity
<ScottL> paultag, i think this;  http://paste.ubuntu.com/548058/
<ScottL> should take care of it
<ScottL> paultag, which should be for:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio/annotate/head%3A/debian/postinst
<ScottL> paultag, i got the additional code from didirock and haven't built it yet or tested it yet
<ScottL> i've been having trouble getting a natty install lately
<ScottL> paultag, so getting that resolved would be awesome
<ScottL> paultag, the second thing is that it appears the tasksel is borked during ubuntu studio install
<ScottL> paultag, this might need to be addressed with cjwatson after making sure the meta packages are correct
<paultag> ScottL: mmhum
<ScottL> paultag, if these are really what you are looking for i'm sure we could find something else :)
<paultag> ScottL: I'm here to help, man. any work for U-S us work I'll do
<paultag> ScottL: RE default xsession, that's easy enough, should just be a default file change. I think I had to do something similar at some point
<paultag> that postinst looks good
<ScottL> paultag, right now i'm installing a ubuntu studio natty install and hope to build it locally and test it, i hope to have it by this evening
<paultag> ScottL: rock on
<paultag> let me know how it goes
<ScottL> but unfortunately i'm home on vacation with a wife and two kids as well, it's not conducive to getting stuff done, ya know?
<paultag> ScottL: did JF-o get back to you about the kernel stuff?
<paultag> ScottL: for sure, man. for sure.
<ScottL> JFo, he said that other critical items were holding the process up and some of the deadlines had been pushed back
<paultag> OK
<ScottL> lol, sorry JFo , that was for paultag 
<paultag> better then we're not doing anything :)
<ailo> ScottL: Seems like firewire works on Natty, by just adding user to audio group.
<ailo> holstein was just testing it
<ScottL> ailo, SOOPER SWEET!
<ailo> We'll need to confirm, but as it seems now, falktx will have one less task to add to the -control app
<ScottL> wow, that's really a relief if true :)
<JFo> ScottL, :-) no problem
<holstein> ScottL: any reason why i shouldnt install the meta-packages in natty?
<holstein> the -audio and -audio-plugins ?
<holstein> i'll go ahead and do it
<holstein> whats the worst that can happen ;)
<holstein> im going to try doing some actual work in there later if i can
<holstein> see how the -lowlatency kernel is in action
<ailo> holstein: I've installed them all. No problems here
<ScottL> paultag, holstein ailo:  here is a place for proposed improvements:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Proposed%20Improvements
<ScottL> i added all that i could think of, please add more if you think of something :)
<ScottL> i'll send falktx the link with thelonius in another channel ;)
<paultag> looks great ScottL 
<paultag> ScottL: hits on the big stuff for sure
<ScottL> paultag, ail and falktx have had conversations about ubuntustudio-controls, which probably is the best oppurtunity for coding
<paultag> aye
<ScottL> eh, i forgot to the the menu update on their as well
<ailo> Considering how firewire seems to work well, and that -lowlatency is low maintenance, yet so good. Only real thing that bothers me is whether the gnome Desktop will be fully functional
<ScottL> ailo, i believe it should be from what i've read/heard
<ScottL> apparently ubuntu is committed to offering it as an alternate to unity
<ailo> Sounds good. 
<ScottL> so hopefully the update to ubuntustudio-setting i'm trying to get done should cause the gnome-classic to be the default xsession then
<ScottL> of course, my install of ubuntu studio natty has bombed out again  ::angry::
<ailo> I've had some bootup problems, but the second try usually works
<holstein> just as a note
<holstein> im in unity
<holstein> for my tests
<ailo> ScottL: No one is looking into the Ubuntu Theme GTK stuff, then?
<ailo> As I said before, I could do that, but it may take a while to get into it. Been doing other things for now.
<ailo> holstein: unity doesnt seem all that complete, right. The main menu doesn't work for me.
<holstein> something important up there is still on the way
<holstein> i just go in unity and say 'hey, that looks cool'
<holstein> and start everything from the terminal ;)
<ScottL> updated to add -menu improvements and examples:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Proposed%20Improvements
<ScottL> ailo, correct, no one is looking at that as well
<ScottL> i'll add that to the improvements webpage as well
<ScottL> ailo and holstein, if you start ubuntu (or ubuntu studio) as soon as you pick your name you can change the session to gnome-classic from a pick menu
<holstein> i tried both
<holstein> i wanted to see how things looked in unity
<holstein> looks fine
<holstein> the compiz requirement is not great though
<holstein> for us
<ScottL> holstein, i find the whole framework sort of kid-ish and everything seems too large
<ScottL> reminds me of some touch face interface for the unwashed masses
<ScottL> or how yahoo use to be the 'internet' for the masses
<ScottL> and kinda how facebook is 'the internet' for the new unwashed masses
<holstein> i really warmed up to it when i started running it
<ScottL> ymmv
<holstein> i thought i would hate it for those reasons
<holstein> its not done yet though...
<holstein> couldnt get lamer or cooler
<ScottL> updated the improvements page again to include:  gtk theme, testing, backports, documentation
<ScottL> although it's pretty loose in some of those cases at the moment :P
<ailo> holstein: You there?
<ailo> Just got an answer from ffado, about udev, which made a lot of sence
<ailo> The ffado rules are probably apart from a standard udev installation, and are located in /lib/udev/rules.d/*
<ailo> a part, I mean..
<ailo> a part of, even..
<ailo> So, we don't need to add the rules, because they are already there.
<ScottL> ailo, that's good news :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-12
<ScottL> ailo, would you be able to get all the stuff you learned onto a wiki page?
<ailo> ScottL: Well, about ffado, it seems we don't need to know the udev stuff anymore, other than that the rules point to group "audio". In a way, that is a universal problem now on Natty, that one needs to belong to that group.
<ailo> In order to get access to the device
<ailo> For Ubuntustudio, it's all about belonging to the audio group, then.
<ailo> As long as we are on the -lowlatency kernel things are simple. On -rt we might need to adjust rtirtq script to work with firewire.
<ScottL> ailo, i was just thinking that it would be nice to know what it took for firewire to work, especially six months or a year from now and people don't remember or aren't around anymore
<ailo> Sadly, it is Maverick that seems to need the most tweaking. The only problem with firewire could be that the device is not included in the udev rules. 
<ailo> I mean on Natty, the only problem would be that
<ailo> Which, I cannot tell by just looking at the rules. I would think all ffado supported devices are listed there
<ailo> ScottL: For Natty it would become a short wiki page. Install Alessio's kernel, become member of audio group, reboot..
<ailo> For realtime we need the kernel. For access to firewire, belonging to audio group, I don't know.
<holstein> ailo: cool
<holstein> that makes sense
<holstein> ScottL: ailo and I were queried today while i went a step and a time
<holstein> i tried sudo qjackctl first with the generic kernel and my firewire device with no luck
<holstein> i booted the lowlatency kernel and it worked as sudo
<holstein> all i did permission-wise was add myself to the audio group
<ScottL> holstein, i was asking alio if someone can document what it took to get firewire working so if we have to come back later then we know what should be going on
<holstein> BUT, we're going to try and find someone to verify
<holstein> and we both had an idea for a verifier
<holstein> ScottL: i say, after one other person has the same results
<holstein> one or more of course*
<holstein> with a different firewire device than what i have
<holstein> we'll document it
<holstein> ScottL: maybe the kernel stuff gets sorted
<holstein> and natty can have abogani 's -lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> holstein, it looks like other issues are standing in the way of getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repos at this time :(
<holstein> and in the US-controls, it could be 'click here to add your user to the audio group for firewire
<ScottL> so i am again doubting if we'll see it for natty
<holstein> ScottL: we need that kernel
<holstein> period
<ScottL> holstein, i don't doubt it will be kept out forever, my impression is that there were some other, unrelated issues at hand that was causing several things to be delayed
<holstein> if its testing, we got a nice pool of users on it
<ailo> holstein: ScottL: I feel satisfied after learning about the udev rules, since it explains how the user gets access to the firewire cards.
<ailo> I'm actually editing a wiki page now, but only concerning Ubuntu 11.04
<holstein> ScottL: as long as we can put something somewhere about how to add that PPA
<holstein> somewhere in the istallation
<holstein> installation*
<holstein> ScottL: would i join -motu ?
<holstein> and ask?
<holstein> or have you already got the axe on it ?
<ScottL> holstein, i don't think it's testing for anything we are doing, i got the impression it was higher order stuff that effected ubuntu at large
<ScottL> holstein, BUT you can ask JFo about it, he's the one who mentioned it
<ScottL> looking at backscroll, JFo said, "it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone)"
<holstein> right
<holstein> i'll ask
<holstein> because we need that kernel
<holstein> US
<holstein> if we are going to compete
<holstein> we have the only audio/multimedia distro that doesnt have a RT kernel
<holstein> i used to not mind much when we had one in the repo
<holstein> and the generic one is getting so much better all the time
<holstein> BUT its not there
<holstein> we just cant support a large percentage of professionals
<holstein> out of the box, OR with a simple install
<holstein> AND the -lowlatency kernel + natty seems very nice so far
<holstein> for me
<holstein> great combo for FW
<holstein> that installed by default, and i dont think anyone could complain legitamately
<ScottL> i feel very strongly about supporting firewire because i believe very many people are using laptops with ubuntu studio
<ailo> holstein: I agree. The lowlatency kernel is the perfect replacement for the generic kernel
<holstein> if not replacement
<holstein> its perfect in this time
<ailo> It's a must to get audio working at all
<holstein> while the generic one is evolving
<holstein> i mean, if this was a couple years ago
<holstein> i probably wouldnt even understand how to add a PPA
<holstein> or what that means
<holstein> 'is it a security risk?'
<holstein> i think its a bad call
<holstein> especially since its a real 'gotcha' after you've installed it, plugged the firewire device in, and nothing happens
<ScottL> not to knock what you are saying, but the -generic kernel does me good for my pci delta44 ;)
<holstein> right
<holstein> but, my device doesnt work at all
<holstein> not even poorly
<holstein> or at a high-latency
<holstein> wont start
<ailo> ScottL: But you don't get realtime privilege
<ailo> You can see it in the jack log
<holstein> and im not trying to say 'wah, my device dont work'
<holstein> i know what to do, but lots of folk dont
<holstein> they'll just remove ubuntustudio with a bad taste in their mouth
<ScottL> ailo, when i run qjackctl it has "RT" flashing though
<holstein> ScottL: check in the messages though
<ScottL> i will
<holstein> i had a message 'cannot get RT privs'
<ScottL> but i also get a message to choose to enable rt privelages when jackd is installed
<holstein> i forget the exact message
<ScottL> i'll check later tonight
<holstein> in the -lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> i finally upgraded my music box to the dual core machine :)
<holstein> using the alsa driver, not firewire
<ScottL> well, upgrading is the right word
<holstein> i had that message about not getting RT privs
<holstein> before adding my user to the audio group
<holstein> JACK was running though
<holstein> and seemed OK
<ScottL> holstein, did you start with vanilla ubuntu and add packages?
<ScottL> i started with ubuntu studio disc
<ScottL> well, "installed" not started
<holstein> ScottL: i had only added jackd at that poing
<holstein> point*
<holstein> its that test laptop i set up a few weeks ago
<holstein> 64bit
<ScottL> for my install i believe i will already be part of the audio group and i really believe i'm running jack with realtime privs
<ScottL> but i'll check later tonight as i said
<holstein> ScottL: does ubuntustudio add the user to the audio group ?
<holstein> by default?
 * ScottL is doing the final update to packages after install
<ailo> ScottL: It would be impossible, becuase of cgroups
<ScottL> holstein, yes, i believe it does
<ScottL> ailo, this is lucid, not natty
<ailo> Ok, sorry :)
<ScottL> i keep the LTS on my studio box
<ScottL> hehe, my bad too, didn't mention this before
<holstein> ScottL: w00t, that great news on the box :)
<ScottL> question: if i had installed the 32 bit version on the dual core machine, would it recognize more that 3 gigs of memory?
<ScottL> i'm guessing that it wouldn't
<ScottL> another question: if there any benefit (other than memory) to running a 64 bit install?  any cons to running 64 bit?
<holstein> ScottL: you need a PAE kernel
<holstein> if the motherboard supports PAE
<holstein> check out..
<holstein> http://www.bandshed.net/AVLinux.html
<holstein> nice explaination of the PAE kernel used in that distro
<holstein> which, i kinda want to try now
<holstein> i was reading about it earlier today
<holstein> http://liquorix.net/
<holstein> ScottL: i cant run one thing i want to run
<holstein> lightscribe labeler
<holstein> in 64bit
<holstein> other than that, i havent had any problems
<holstein> cant say ive seen any drastic benifits either
<ailo> ScottL: One benefit is that build times are a bit faster. Some thing just seem faster.
<ScottL> my understanding is that wine-asio doesn't work in 64 bit, but that was also a year ago
<ScottL> probably falktx has an idea about that as well
<holstein> falk is up on the 64bit support
<ScottL> ailo, that is good because i'll be doing some backports soon :)
<ailo> holstein: You mean, PAE for 32 bit systems, right?
<holstein> ailo: yup
<holstein> ive used one
<ailo> To get more memory access
<holstein> not really for that purpose
<holstein> i just got one
<holstein> with an ubuntu install
<holstein> not sure why
<ailo> holstein: I think the only benefit of PAE is that it supports more than 4 GB of ram
<ailo> For 32 bit systems
<ailo> I think it has to do with adress names. On a 32 bit processor, you have a limit on how many combinations of adresses you can have.
<holstein> ive never needed to try it 
<holstein> but ive heard it works
<ailo> So, on the PAE it uses some other way of getting adresses, probably by splitting up the adress into two 32bit parts, or something
<ailo> Ok, I added my first ever wiki page on Ubuntu's community documentation. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Firewire Audio on Ubuntu 11.04 Natty
<ailo> hmm, the link is a bit short
<holstein> nice, we should link to that...
<ScottL> ailo, holstein:  my understanding is that the -rt kernel was needed to avoid irq conflicts with firewire devices, can this be addressed with the -lowlatency kernel as well?
<holstein> ScottL: -lowlatency is the one i was using
<holstein> in my tests
<holstein> in natty
<ailo> ScottL: I don't know if perhaps the new stack has changed that somehow. I suppose, judging on how well it seems to run for holstein, and Asmo, that won't be needed anymore?
<ScottL> oh, that would be awesome too :)
<ailo> holstein: ScottL: I too was under the impression that only -rt gave decent performance in the past.
<ailo> Maybe I should not have had spaces in my wiki page name?
<holstein> ailo: so far that has been my experience
<holstein> i was very impressed when i got down to 1.6ms latency today
<holstein> with the -lowlatency kernel
<ailo> I'm trying to find if I can move the page. Anyone done that?
<holstein> ailo: the wiki page?
<holstein> cant move it
<holstein> you'll have to make another
<holstein> and copy
<ailo> Ok. Will do.
<holstein> prolly
<holstein> dont know who can move them
<holstein> none of us i bet
<ailo> So we can't delete our own pages either?
<holstein> not sure
<ailo> I'm not able to now, at least
<ailo> I did a renaming, that I didn't like :(
<ailo> How about emptying a page, and redirecting?
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> do we have a firewire one?
<holstein> for ubuntustudio?
<holstein> we could add to the ubuntustudio preperation one
<ailo> Ok, so this is the name of the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirewireNatty
<holstein> ailo: maybe it should be audio named?
<holstein> not sure
<holstein> is this for all firewire devices?
<ailo> I'm putting it in audio category now.
<ailo> I'm explaining the firewire device support at the bottom of the page a bit.
<holstein> cool
<holstein> i like it
<ailo> holstein: So, this is just reference for an unreleased distro, on our progress. If we want to save it for Ubuntustudio, we could put a link somewhere maybe?
<holstein> cool
 * abogani waves all
<ScottL> morning abogani , ailo , astraljava , AutoStatic , paultag , persia  :)
<ailo> Good afternoon ScottL!
<AutoStatic> Hello ScottL
<abogani> hi all!
<abogani> ScottL: Do we have some news?
<ScottL> abogani, about the -lowlatency kernel?  not very good news for the moment
<abogani> ScottL: :-(
<ScottL> abogani, JFo said, "it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone)"
<ScottL> abogani,  this isn't to say that it will not happen, just not quite yet
<abogani> ScottL: So they are quite busy.
<ScottL> abogani, and i think the UKT was a bit shocked to learn that the -lowlatency kernel requires compile time flag changes, hopefully that facilitates the process :)
<abogani> only
<ScottL> abogani,  requires compile time flag changes only       i will state it as such from now on
<ScottL> abogani, but hopefully this knowledge facilitates the process considerably :)
<ScottL> abogani, and ailo, asmo, and holstein have all had extremely favourable comments about the -lowlatency kernel and firewire :-)
<ScottL> abogani, so we will definitely keep pushing them to get it into the repositories, even if it is delayed until natty+1 (hopefully it doesn't take that long however)
<abogani> ScottL: Good.
<ailo> ScottL: What does natty+1 mean?
<ailo> After final release?
<abogani> ailo: No it means 11.10
<ailo> ok, so UbuntuStudio Natty will most probably need to include the ppa, then.
<ScottL> abogani, my understanding was that the -rt kernel was required for firewire users avoid irq conflicts
<ScottL> abogani, does the -lowlatency kernel provide the same benefit?
<ailo> Isn't that done using the rtirq script together with the -rt kernel?
<abogani> ScottL: The -rt/-realtime kernel don't avoid irqs conflicts: It  let us how prioritize irqs execution. As ailo pinpointed rtirq do exactly that job.
<abogani> it let use decide how prioritize
<ScottL> abogani, i'm frightfully ignorant about firewire and irq conflicts, however i trust your knowledge which is why i ask you
<ScottL> abogani, okay, so if a user is experiencing an irq conflict and they are using the -lowlatency kernel, can they still use rtirq to fix it?
<ailo> ScottL: From what I understand the rtirq script only works with the realtime patch.
<abogani> Seems to me that ailo is very well informed. :-)
<AutoStatic> That's right, rtirq only works with kernels that have the realtime patch
<ailo> I don't know so much about the danger of irq conflicts, but I always thought the rtirq script brings down low latency even more. I don't think it helps when there is an irq conflict.
<AutoStatic> It doesn't bring down latency
<ailo> Sorry, "gives maximum priority"
<AutoStatic> It allows you to prioritize softirq's
<AutoStatic> And that helps when you have IRQ conflicts like this: 16:       8201     318657   IO-APIC-fasteoi   uhci_hcd:usb3, ohci1394, mmc0, eth1, jmb38x_ms:slot0, nvidia
<AutoStatic> (that's my notebook)
<AutoStatic> I can't use my FireWire soundcard with a generic kernel, only with a realtime kernel
<ailo> AutoStatic: How does the rt kernel help avoid conflicts? I'm not sure how to read that, but are there many devices using the same irq?
<AutoStatic> Yes
<AutoStatic> a USB port, a cardreader, my wifi card and my graphics card
<ailo> Ok, so the rtirq picks out one device, and gives it maximum priority within that irq?
<AutoStatic> Yes
<ailo> I suppose the -lowlatency cannot help there, then.
<AutoStatic> I give ohci1394 max priority with the help of rtirq
<AutoStatic> And then my FireWire soundcard works
<AutoStatic> No, unless you unbind the driver for that USB port, disable WiFi and use Nouveau
<AutoStatic> And disable the cardreader
<AutoStatic> But I've never tried that
<ailo> Autostatic: Have you tried Natty on that system. Would the juju stack make any difference?
<falktx> hey guys
<AutoStatic> Hello falktx
<AutoStatic> ailo: Haven't tried Natty
<falktx> AutoStatic: do you have a firewire device?
<AutoStatic> falktx: Yes
<falktx> cool
<falktx> AutoStatic: I always wanted to know how the new stack works without the udev rules thing...
<AutoStatic> Can't tell you, I've never tried the new stack
<ailo> falktx: We figured it out yesterday,
<falktx> ailo: what exact version brings this "fix"? 2.0.1 ?
<ailo> Apparently the udev rules are now default and reside in //lib/udev/rules.d/60-ffado.rules
<ailo> A part of udev
<ailo> And they point to audio group, so one must be a member in order to get access.
<falktx> err
<falktx> ailo: i though that was the old way... ?
<AutoStatic> You still need udev
<ailo> falktx: Have you checked that dir /lib/udev/rules.d/* ?
<ailo> There a lot of stuff in there
<AutoStatic> as the new stack creates nodes too
<AutoStatic> and you have to get permissions right on those
 * falktx is still confused
<ailo> I don't know anything about udev, but in that folder you can find rules for alsa as well, and pretty much everything else it seems
<falktx> yep
<ScottL> hey falktx, is wine-asio available for 64 bit yet?  if i remember correctly, it didn't used to be
<falktx> but I already use the udev for firewire in kxstudio...
<falktx> ScottL: ubuntu doesn't have wine 64bit, so it's useless
<falktx> ScottL: but yes, wineasio can be compiled to work on 64bit, JackWinter confirms it
<ailo> falktx: I guess the main difference is just that you don't have to add them. The rules are a part of the standard installation.
<AutoStatic> I'm not an udev expert either
<falktx> ailo: ah, k
<AutoStatic> All I know is that it allows you to set permissions on device nodes
<falktx> so the new stack "fix" is a fake
<falktx> ehe
<ailo> falktx: so, for the ubuntustudiocontrols you would only need to worry about adding the user to audio group, in order to get firewire working
<ailo> And installing the -lowlatency kernel, as it seems
<falktx> ailo: hm, it doesnt work with generic ?
<ailo> falktx: Not heard of it working yet on the generic.
<falktx> it doesnt mean it doesnt work
<ailo> Don't know if it's because of jackd being in realtime mode by default, and cgroups won't let that happen
<falktx> ah, the cgroups stupidity...
<falktx> almost forgot about that one...
<ailo> In any case, the generic kernel is no good
<falktx> k
<falktx> does natty has 2.6.33-rt kernel ?
<ailo> Nope
<falktx> ah, still 31?
<abogani> falktx: Do you mean in the official repos?
<falktx> abogani: yes
<falktx> i havent checked it yet
<abogani> falktx: It isn't still exist anymore. I dropped it completely.
<falktx> oh
<falktx> too bad
<ScottL> falktx, i don't believe there are *any* -rt kernels in the repos
<ScottL> just in ppa
<falktx> ScottL: lucid has 2.6.31-rt from karmic
<abogani> falktx: For same reason (they don't give me upload rights) I don't support that version.
<ScottL> falktx, i was pretty sure it was dropped, but i could be wrong of course :P
<falktx> abogani: it would be nice to have it rt in the official repos
<falktx> ...
<ScottL> ubuntu packages shows linux-rt for hardy, karmic, and lucid...hmmmm
<AutoStatic> falktx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime
<abogani> falktx: Sorry but in last releases I spent only the 15% of my time (which I had dedicated to Ubuntu) for kernel and the rest for Ubuntu's bureaucracy. it isn't acceptable for me.
<falktx> abogani: i totally understand
<falktx> abogani: but I though you were MOTU ... are you not ?
<abogani> falktx: No.
<falktx> damn it
<falktx> anyone in US dev team is MOTU ?
<ScottL> falktx, i don't know about juniper.jaxx, but per.sia and the.muso are either core devs or motu, but of course they aren't directly active currently
<abogani> falktx: TheMuso, quadrispro, perhaps persia
<ScottL> abogani, oh yeah, quadrispro....he's core dev i believe
<ScottL> this isn't to say that per.sia and the.muso don't help when asked because they do :)
<falktx> ah, yes, quadispro is from debian
<ScottL> falktx, he's also a debian developer, so we have a really good vector (along with debian multimedia team) to get packages into debian and therefore into ubuntu
<falktx> yep
 * falktx hopes to get ladish into debian soon
<ScottL> falktx, that would absolutely rock
<ScottL> falktx, i believe that if ladish gets into debian and then into ubuntu studio and we can do some PR for it
<falktx> ScottL: ladish currently depends on laditools, so we need to get that there as well
<ScottL> falktx, then ladish will be positioned to own the position over jack-session
<falktx> that would rock
<ScottL> ladish would be first and provide more functionality
<ScottL> i really think some PR and tutorial (video and wiki) and people would ignore jack-session
<AutoStatic> What's wrong with jack-session?
<AutoStatic> (I don't use session managers myself BTW)
<AutoStatic> Why do you want people to ignore it?
<falktx> AutoStatic: have you tried it?
<AutoStatic> No
<falktx> AutoStatic: i did try to develop an app for it, at least the API sucks
<AutoStatic> If I'd try it it would become clearer I guess :)
<falktx> there's no "open" file or "quit"
<falktx> just save, save template and save+quit
<falktx> we can save a template but can't open it
<AutoStatic> All I know is that Torben Hohn is really enthusiastic about it, guess that blurs my judgement
<AutoStatic> Torben Hohn is kinda the progressive guy
<ailo> Anyone thought of making startup scripts for qjackctl, that checks whether the system is tuned or not? Opening up maybe studio-controls, if not..
<ailo> Or, A startup script.
<AutoStatic> There is the realtimequickconfig script
<ScottL> AutoStatic, i say that because i believe ladish offers more currently than jack-session is planning to offer from what i have read
<ScottL> hi quadrispro 
<quadrispro> hi ScottL !
<AutoStatic> Yeah ScottL you're probably right
<ScottL> it appears that you already have to have jack started and ardour open to re-establish connections (which kinda seems redundant since ardour already does this)
<ScottL> but it's probably something i'm doing wrong or not understanding
 * falktx wishes to make video tutorials soon, but he's afraid of his bad english
<ScottL> but what falktx said is true, it's very difficult to understand (at least intuitively and how does that fare for a new user) when you are saving or opening
<ScottL> falktx, i wouldn't worry about your english, there will be many people watching it who either a) aren't native english speakers or b) don't care if you mispronounce a word
<falktx> i hope so
<ScottL> the thing i like about ladish is that it seems to be a single point of startup for all the audio apps, including all connections
<AutoStatic> Yeah, i already got the idea too that jack session management is more a dev orientated alternative while Ladish aims at users
<falktx> ardour3 now requires jack-session
<AutoStatic> Ah, well, I don't use Ardour
<AutoStatic> Never will probably
<ScottL> AutoStatic, really?  what do you use and why do you prefer it over ardour? 
 * ScottL hopes to learn something cool ;)
<AutoStatic> Qtractor
<ScottL> is that because of MIDI sequencing?
<AutoStatic> Yes, that plays a big role, I do a lot with MIDI
<AutoStatic> But i also use it to record the band
<ScottL> that is very understandable, by the way, qtractor should replace seq24 as the default sequencer in natty
<AutoStatic> I just like it, it supports all plugin framweorks
<AutoStatic> Seq24 is a pattern based sequencer
<AutoStatic> Qtractor is not
<ScottL> falktx, maybe one of the OSMP guys can help you with the ladish tutorial, maybe do voice over is you are still worried about it
<AutoStatic> They are completely different applications
<AutoStatic> I use them side by side
<AutoStatic> Seq24 for my pattern based sequences and Qtractor for overdubs
<falktx> AutoStatic: have you tried the Non-* apps?
<AutoStatic> Yes. Don't like them
<falktx> heh
<AutoStatic> They all lack specific things I need
<falktx> I'm still looking for a good jack-midi sequencer...
<ScottL> oh, and AutoStatic, please don't misunderstand my beliefs or intentions: i believe that paul, et al, are doing incredible work and that i don't want to exclude jack-session from ubuntu, ubuntustudio, or anywhere
<AutoStatic> No, no I understand
<ScottL> but i view things from a user perspective and think that ladish offers more for them
<falktx> AutoStatic: ScottL: btw, jack-session is in the new PPAs
<falktx> just in case
<AutoStatic> That's what I wanted to say, you're seeing things from a user perspective and from that perspective Ladish is superior
<falktx> AutoStatic: nedko @ #ladi would love to hear that...
<ScottL> hahaha, i bet he would :)   who doesn't like some validation?
 * falktx cheats
<AutoStatic> He'll get it ;)
<AutoStatic> He has an account on Flattr and I support some of his projects
<AutoStatic> falktx: what would you like to see in a JACK-MIDI sequencer?
<falktx> AutoStatic: just the normal stuff, using patterns and then put them together on a sequence
<falktx> like seq24 kinda does
<AutoStatic> But you're not so fond of seq24?
<falktx> AutoStatic: I recently developed a plugin for energyXT, which allows to use jack midi input&output
<falktx> AutoStatic: seq24 is alsa only afaik
<ScottL> i wonder who bluebug is?
<ScottL> hi JFo 
<AutoStatic> falktx: that's right, I misread your initial post
<AutoStatic> I read it as a jack-aware midi sequencer
<JFo> hi ScottL 
<AutoStatic> But you want a MIDI sequencer that has JACK-MIDI support
<falktx> AutoStatic: my energyxt work -> http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=307300
<falktx> AutoStatic: yes, so far only ardour3, non-sequencer and epichord does it
<falktx> AutoStatic: now also energyxt too cause I wrote it :)
<AutoStatic> And Jacker
<AutoStatic> https://bitbucket.org/paniq/jacker/wiki/Home
<AutoStatic> Cool stuff
<AutoStatic> (The energyXT plugin I mean)
<falktx> AutoStatic: is the first way to get midi output support in energyXT
<falktx> (in linux)
<AutoStatic> I've never used energyXT
<falktx> last time I tried jacker crashed on start
<ScottL> JFo, you have any idea how the Graner's are?
<JFo> well they are both wacko if that is what you mean ;-) just kidding 
<falktx> AutoStatic: fun fact... energyXT does not send midi_off events (0x80), it just send a new note with 0 volume
<JFo> ScottL, they are good.
<falktx> AutoStatic: i laughed at it when I notice it
<JFo> The new house is coming along nicely
<AutoStatic> yeah, thatÅ pretty clumsy
 * AutoStatic that's
<ScottL> JFo, sweet!  i can only imagine how they felt, just devastated and uprooted
<falktx> AutoStatic: they store all midi data in an Int, which was hard to work with
<JFo> yeah, it was a tough time
<JFo> but things are slowly getting back to normal
<falktx> AutoStatic: do you know any other jack-midi sequencer?
<paultag> morning ScottL 
<AutoStatic> falktx: Nope
<falktx> AutoStatic: my reason for the jack-midi interest is the jack-freewheel support
<falktx> AutoStatic: if an app support jack properly (audio, midi and transport), you can render an entire project in freewheel mode, without a single xrun no matter how many synths/effects you enable
<AutoStatic> Sounds cool, but there are not a lot of apps that support all that
<AutoStatic> I guess
<falktx> AutoStatic: yep, that is a sad thing
<AutoStatic> What do you mean with rendering actually?
<falktx> I talked to Rui about jack.midi in qtractor, but he said not possible at this time
<AutoStatic> No, Qtractor relies heavily on Alsa midi
<falktx> AutoStatic: hehe, a tool I developed specially for this
<falktx> AutoStatic: imagine this
<falktx> hydrogen open in song mode, synced with qtractor (audio)
<falktx> some effects laying around
<falktx> AutoStatic: you set a start time (usually 0), and a stop/end time (3mins by default)
<falktx> AutoStatic: my app will start jack_capture, set freewheel mode, and start transport
<falktx> AutoStatic: when the transport reaches end-time, transport and recording stops
<falktx> AutoStatic: it renders a whole project with no crackles, and mot of time faster than realtime
<falktx> *most
<AutoStatic> Sounds a lot like what monolithic apps are doing on other platforms
<falktx> AutoStatic: yep, but we can get the jack modular setup that way
<falktx> using realtime stuff in a laptop doesnt quite work for me
<AutoStatic> I don't see the relation between rendering and using realtime stuff
<falktx> and qtractor cannot render midi synths to audio directly, so I think this is the best idea
<falktx> AutoStatic: ^
<falktx> AutoStatic: I cannot use many synths at the same time without getting xruns
<AutoStatic> Well, this is all a bit above my head ;)
<AutoStatic> (from my own perspective)
<ScottL> hi troy_s, how have you been?
<troy_s> ScottL: LOL
<troy_s> ScottL: Apparently you missed the cross posting event.
<troy_s> ScottL: Been uh... interesting here the past two days.
<troy_s> ScottL: You?
<holstein> maybe im unclear as to what the time issue can be with getting the -lowlatency kernel in the repo
<holstein> is the plan to make the generic one work ?
<holstein> if thats the case, thats fine
<ScottL> troy_s, i've been busy, which cross posting?
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> ScottL: About 35,000 views. Lots of vitriol. Lots of anger. Lots of tangential opinion. Plenty of drama. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2091194  http://lwn.net/Articles/422414/ 
<ScottL> troy_s, sorry was busy getting an answer in another channel
<troy_s> ScottL: Don't be sorry. ;)
<ScottL> troy_s, oh yes, i had expected this to make quite a stir
<troy_s> ScottL: Yeah. It did.
<ScottL> troy_s, i know you had been critical of this before and was surprised it took this long to make the post, but i'm glad you did
<ScottL> troy_s, sadly i haven't posted in a long time :(   i'm hoping to start up again in a month or so.  and keep it going again
<ailo> holstein: About the cgroups on generic kernel, all I know is that some jack devs are working on it.
<ScottL> holstein, initially the blueprint was to get the documentation completed for natty so others (us included) can get other kernels into the repos
<ScottL> holstein, but JFo was saying that other critical items are stacking up which is delaying other things (our concerns as well, i.e. -lowlatency kernel)
<ScottL> holstein, so once the "log jam" with the UKT settles then we can expect some movement on the remaining items, including for us :)
<ScottL> holstein, so, it might be in time for natty, but i'm expecting not, but this means that i expect it for natty+1 hopefully
<JFo> yeah, there are tons of things that are getting shifted
<JFo> much to the dismay of the team itself
<holstein> ScottL: im just wondering how we would get permission to have that kernel installed by default
<ScottL> holstein, "by default" do you into the repos or onto the ISO/disc?
<holstein> well, ideally in the repo
<holstein> but if thats not going to happen
<ailo> ScottL: Could it be possible to add a repo on top of the Ubuntu one?
<holstein> can we get premission to have a non-official repo item inculded?
<holstein> included* 
<holstein> im just following this RT in maverick thread in the mailing list
<holstein> i've sent several messages with a nice link 
<holstein> and still, there are questions
<holstein> valid ones
<holstein> about how to get an RT kernel
<ailo> holstein: well, isn't that mainly because of Maverick?
<ScottL> holstein, well, i don't think it's a matter of getting "permission" as it is logistics, i.e. _how_ would one include the repo with the installation
<ScottL> holstein, which would probably be modifying a package to add that line to the sources.list
<ScottL> holstein, but this doesn't really get the item (or kernel) installed on the image, just provides a path to get it
<ScottL> holstein, but ultimately, with the image build system that exists, i don't think it's possible to include something not in the repos
<ScottL> i think other distros (avlinux, kxstudio) build their images from an extant system, meaning they either have a working install that they make an image from (ala remastersys) or they build it in a chroot
<ScottL> i think falktx used to use remastersys but moved to building their own image via script
<holstein> sorry, phone..
<ScottL> essentially i believe that falktx has automated this process:https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization
<ScottL> no problem holstein 
<ScottL> but i do not know if he build his install in a chroot as they wiki page describes
<holstein> ScottL: i would be fine with abogani 's ppa added by default
<holstein> and documentation
<holstein> how do we make that happen for natty?
<holstein> what can i do* to make that happen?
<ScottL> BUT the automatic build deamons (buildd) start with "seeds" names of packages desired and it "germinates" which means it finds all the depencies and somehow makes an ISO image that works
<ScottL> that last part is beyond me though
<holstein> well, somebody knows
<ScottL> holstein, i think we need to have a meeting soon and determine what changes we would like to make to any of the ubuntustudio-* packages
<holstein> and it cant be rocket science
<holstein> thats something i could find out
<holstein> falk would know that i bet
<holstein> ScottL: agreed
<ailo> ScottL: What's the deal with existing Ubuntustudio packages? I don't know the procedure. Can they all be updated before final release?
<holstein> i just didnt want to miss the opportunity to get -lowlatency in natty
<ScottL> but the point of the buildd system is that it is automated and all based on what is in the repos, to do otherwise would probably mean rewriting the buildd system
<holstein> at least an apt-get away
<ScottL> ailo, yes
<ScottL> ailo, but there is a limit though
<ailo> ScottL: So we could in a sence add some scripts and default settings to make it really easy to setup everything?
<ScottL> ailo, according to the schedule, that time frame would be Feb 24th:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
<ScottL> ailo, possibly, but we need to determine the changes, make sure they're sane, modify the package, update the source, and Bob's your uncle
<ScottL> if nothing goes wrong somewhere ;)
<ailo> At least get Ubuntustudio-controls updated and include kernel install to it, I think.
<ScottL> keep in mind, not all the proposed or intended changes for -controls needs to happen now, we can stage it between various releases if necessary
<holstein> but, i could get on adding abogani 's PPA to the sources right?
<ailo> Sure
<holstein> that doesnt really change anything functionality wise
<holstein> out of the box
<ScottL> i think adding the a ppa to the sources.list would be better suited for the ubuntustudio-settings package thought, not in -controls
<ScottL> IF we are going to add it automatically and not by user request (by ticking a box)
<ScottL> holstein, agreed, the user would need to apt-get it, but at least it would show up in synaptic or apt-get cache
<ailo> If we add a script to jackd startup configuration that checks if kernel is installed, if user belongs to audio group, and stuff like that, this could pop up the studio controls, that would let you set everything up.
<ScottL> if "apt-get cache" is the right apt-get command, don't know if this is correct
<holstein> ScottL: im comfotable with that
<holstein> comfortable
<holstein> sudo apt-cache search linux-lowlatency
<holstein> and something would come up
<ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure that is the correct approach
<ScottL> is this going to happen everytime jack is started?
<ScottL> what if the user _doesn't_ want -lowlatency?
<ailo> It would only pop up, if something was missing
<ailo> On Natty? On Ubuntustudio? We can't use generic, in my opinion.
<ScottL> ailo,  right, but what if the user is comfortable with -generic, will it pop up everytime because -lowlatency is "missing" ?
<ScottL> oh yes, i keep forgetting about the cgroups
<holstein> well, the plan is that the -generic will be what we use though
 * ScottL is going to install vanilla natty today and play with it
<holstein> in the hopefully not to distant future
<ailo> Consider the -lowlatency a generic kernel, because it pretty much is
<ScottL> i tried installing yesterday's ubuntustudio ISO and the kernel keeps panicing during installation (but at least it's not terminating with sigterm anymore)
<holstein> :/
<holstein> i did vanilla
<holstein> and added jack to test
<holstein> added the meta packages yesterday
<ScottL> ailo, but the -lowlatency kernel doesn't have rt_group_sched, correct?  and this prevents cgroups from being a problem correct?
<ailo> ScottL: Exactly
<ScottL> holstein, one of the meta packages failed to buld last night though, i'll have to choose carefully which i install, but i think it was the audio meta, so i should be okay
<ailo> And, the -lowlatency kernel has everything the -generic has, except it's better at lowlatency.
<holstein> i just did ubuntustudio-audio and ubuntustudio-audio-plugins
<holstein> i think -video failed 
<ailo> ScottL: There could be many strategies for a startup script for qjackctl. One strategy could be using a onetime, did you set everything up?
<ailo> Also, there would perhaps need to be a dependency to the Ubuntustudio-controls, no matter which audio-related ubuntustudio-package one installs
<ailo> The problem is mainly related to jack. Realtime as well as firewire. And both seem to need -lowlatency and the audio group.
<ailo> I can understand holstein's concerns on not having things "out of the box". For someone not realizing they need -lowlatency may get really dissapointed.
<ailo> (In a way, jackd being in the main repo without a functional kernel for realtime is a pretty serious flaw. )
<ScottL> ailo, are you suggesting we modify the jack package?
<holstein> i think having access to a RT kernel out of the box is fine
<ailo> ScottL: I don't know about jackd. That's still in the main repo and should of course at some point be adjusted to work with new Ubuntu kernels.
<ailo> But, Ubuntustudio-settings could perhaps include something that makes it easier to get things setup. 
<ailo> The simplest approach could be doc on the Desktop, of course.
<ailo> The best thing, of course would be to get the -lowlatency in.
<ailo> If we were to adress the importance a bit, perhaps we can make them upgrade the importance of the -lowlatency kernel?
<ailo> And things would go faster.
<ailo> ScottL: By the way, those workflow ideas for audio I guess would be perfect i used as templates on something ladish, eventually.
<ailo> (time to sleep..)
<ScottL> ailo, holstein:  okay, finally got a vanilla natty installed and you are correct, sir; i can't get real-time privileges
<ScottL> ailo, holstein:  the audio group was already there and i added myself to it, but still no real-time privilages
<ScottL> ailo, holstein: and i get horrible stable latency with -generic kernel
<ScottL> next, i move onto abogani's -lowlatency kernel :)
<holstein> ScottL: cool
<holstein> glad you're finding the same results
<holstein> at least
 * holstein dinner... bbl
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-13
<ScottL> troy_s, i liked the second post as well :)
<troy_s> ScottL: That's good. Hopefully it shows the issue. It is a direct response to the top ranking comment on Reddit which is, in no uncertain terms, completely inaccurate and incorrect regarding when bit depths apply.
<troy_s> ScottL: I _hope_ that is apparent now.
<troy_s> ScottL: Clear or confusing for you?
<ScottL> troy_s,  the bit depth issue is clear to me, but it is analogous to audio which i am fundamentally familiar
<troy_s> ScottL: It is sad that some people, even those with solid backgrounds, can't understand that dividing an odd number forces you to round data.
<troy_s> ScottL: And that means a pretty noticeable image quality issue.
<ScottL> troy_s, what blows my shorts off, is that when reading the comments in the first post it is clear that GIMP's fundamental flaws (i.e. bit depth) are obscured by it's superficial flaws (i.e. UI)
<troy_s> ScottL: Yes. But to be fair, a commenter over at Hacker News basically summed up that one can negotiate UI issues but cannot negotiate capability issues.
<troy_s> ScottL: And the real issue is priorities. Who is GIMP for? If it is for this new "High end imaging" thing that Peter Sikking got them to commit to, why in the _world_ is single window mode a funded change over say, deeper bit depth?
<ScottL> troy_s,  absolutely, and while those from windows or mac are probably not going to negotiate the UI, those within Linux _have_ to...and then find the bit depth lacking :(
<troy_s> ScottL: Another key point missed.
<troy_s> ScottL: I was simply chased around with pitchforks by people that assumed I wasn't committed to working 100% in a Libre environment.
<ScottL> troy_s,  oh, i agree about audience!  if 8 bit depth is all you need then why are you using the GIMP instead of something with less under the hood?
<troy_s> ScottL: And the reverse, all the blah blah about not being PS (sidetrack issue really) doesn't cover "OK, so 8 bit is a  happy place, are we serving _that_ audience as efficiently as we could?"
<troy_s> ScottL: Because it feels like it doesn't quite serve any audience as well as it could... sort of stuck with an identity crisis.
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, serves all audiences mediocrely but none well
<troy_s> ScottL: Funny thing... You read David Airey?
<ScottL> troy_s, no i haven't
<troy_s> ScottL: http://www.davidairey.com/business-basics/
<ScottL> troy_s, wow, penguin pete needs some drugs, psychoanalysis, or anger management :/
<troy_s> ScottL: Yeah ... that one almost tipped me. Not because I was impacted but more because of the sheer... ignorance? of the whole... thing.
<ScottL> troy_s, and i had just read to the point where one of the gimp devs posted (death, i think)
<troy_s> ScottL: There's a great comment in there. "I see steps at 40 levels. I don't see any at 255. The author is an idiot."
<troy_s> ScottL: Yep. 
<troy_s> ScottL: Bigger issue I saw, having been around libre a while, is why is the flagship imaging app down to 2 developers?
<troy_s> ScottL: To me, personally, that speaks of something gone terribly wrong.
<troy_s> ScottL: Terribly.
<troy_s> Wholly COW
<troy_s> that last comment ... as with about ... 60 above it ... clearly didn't read the post.
<troy_s> Ugh.
<ScottL> troy_s,  LOL, but sadly
<troy_s> ScottL: I originally asked the question because Blender likely has even more a niche audience than say GIMP, and yet it seems to be _extremely_ healthy. Now the list of whys is probably long and rather spread, but I'm more interested in knowing why GIMP _isn't_ there.
<troy_s> ScottL: A good chunk is manpower. But why can't it attract the minds then?
<troy_s> ScottL: I can only think Blender is at least as complex as GIMP.
<ScottL> troy_s, aye, i would expect blender to be as complex as GIMP, but i think it serves a distinct audience, doesn't it?
<troy_s> ScottL: Audience aside, I just worry about what Alexandre posted there being 2.5 developers or what not.
<ScottL> troy_s,  well, look at ubuntu studio, i think it's analogous
<ScottL> troy_s,  who does it serve?  everyone?  no one?
<troy_s> ScottL: I understood that GIMP's core was in fact Alexa and Mitch.
<ScottL> troy_s, who should get involved to help?
<troy_s> ScottL: I think GIMP has gone through that vision phase. Peter Sikking, the fellow involved with Krita (and a good read on both counts) is active with GIMP.
<troy_s> ScottL: So Krita chose "high end digital painting" (and has made huge strides in that regard including workshopping with Revoy) and GIMP settled on high end image manipulation.
<troy_s> ScottL: The problem is really that it seems development is crawling... and I'm certain there are reasons. If the whole 'toxic developers' thing is a myth or has passed, then there is room for others to maybe help extend that in a productive pattern.
<ScottL> holstein, finished with the -generic kernel test and now i'm downloading abogani's -lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> holstein, performance with the -generic kernel was pretty poor in natty contrasted against performance in maverick or lucid :|
<ScottL> troy_s, reading through some of the comments on lwn and hacker it seems like there is a LOT of confusion, misinformation, misunderstanding
<troy_s> ScottL: There is. But LWN and HackerNews pretty much nails it.
<troy_s> ScottL: Reddit had a top comment that said "It isn't an issue" and was utterly incorrect.
<ScottL> troy_s, and I am certainly not knowledgeable about the GIMP's development
<troy_s> ScottL: I just don't really know about the development. Very odd.
<ScottL> troy_s,  i'm not trying to feign insight, but for an outsider a few things come to mind:
<ScottL> troy_s,  the developers might be coders but perhaps they really aren't project leads or managers
<ScottL> troy_s, i say that because if they truly have been working on GEGL for many years and don't have it implemented yet then perhaps they might change their approach or developer
<ScottL> troy_s, also, if the 'toxic developer' is a myth or even if it is true, perhaps a little PR might be in order
<troy_s> ScottL: Agree on that front.
<ScottL> troy_s, and from one of the articles it said they code in C, have high standards for formatting, and don't want "islands of code", this doesn't seem conducive for patching
<ScottL> troy_s,  unless they were to employ someone dedicated or semi-dedicated to integrate the patches (of course i don't know that they don't do that)
<ScottL> troy_s, but i think that an honest and open (admitting a few foibles if possible) appeal to the community would probably go along ways for them to garner community understanding if not support
<ScottL> troy_s, of course i could be completely wrong as well :P
<ScottL> about everything
<ScottL> ailo, holstein, abogani : i did some testing (very rudimentary) with the -generic kernel and the -lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> firstly, i could not start with -rt privileges on the -generic kernel as predicted by ailo and holstein 
<ScottL> note that i was using on board audio in a dell 4700 (no firewire interface or pci card)
<holstein> -lowlatency is BANGin
<holstein> i was totally skeptical for the firewire
<holstein> it works great abogani 
<ScottL> and my "testing" was browsing the internet on firefox and seeing if xruns appeared in qjackctl
<holstein> yup, i had JACK running at 1.2ms
<holstein> fired up FF
<holstein> nothing
<ScottL> with the -generic i could run at 256 frames/11.6 msecs and receive incidental xruns throughout my "testing", i.e. reading about GIMP
<ScottL> if i lowered that to 512 frames/23.2 msecs i received no xruns
<ScottL> BUT
<ScottL> with -lowlatency i could run with rt privileges and got as low as 64 frames/2.9 ms without any xruns
<ScottL> i stopped there without "testing" further because it's getting late and the family needs some attention
<ScottL> ;)
<ScottL> even though that's hardly conducive how it would handle real audio work, i'm still highly encouraged about the delta i saw
<holstein> ScottL: what to you think?
<holstein> we can add abogani 's PPA ?
<holstein> ScottL: you can see the new found sense of urgency that i have right?
<ScottL> holstein, i would like absolutely like to add abogani's ppa, but i would have wanted to even if the -generic worked better ;)
<holstein> :)
<ScottL> holstein, and i say that because i'm guessing that we will not get the -lowlatency into the repositories
<holstein> hey, at least it works at all for non-FW
<ScottL> holstein, but you are right, this becomes much more critical due to the non-realtime privileges _and_ the firewire issues
<holstein> ScottL: i feel like have the PPA is ok though
<holstein> as long as its installable
<holstein> out of the box
<holstein> ScottL: you think so too?
<holstein> i mean, ideally, shipping with -lowlatency
<ScottL> i think shipping with the -lowlatency kernel so that everything (rt, firewire, etc) works out of the box without installing anything extra
<ScottL> but we can't control that currently, that's up to the ubuntu kernel team (UKT)
<ScottL> however, the next best thing would be to enable abogani's ppa but have the user actively install the -lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> s/enable/enable by default
<holstein> something in the menu even right?
<ScottL> the next choice would be to have either the user enable the ppa by hand or have it in ubuntustudio-controls as a check box, then the user can download the kernel
<ScottL> holstein, possibly as a menu item, but we need to think through it both from a user perspective and from a developer perspective and make sure it's right for both
<holstein> well, its a band-aid either way
<holstein> SO i think something obvious and easy to remove later
<holstein> ScottL: maybe dont mess with sources
<holstein> and just a menu item that does it all
<holstein> adds the PPA and installs
<holstein> thats east to make and put in, and take out
<ScottL> holstein, i don't think we can install the kernel without adding the ppa to the sources.list
<ScottL> btw, i managed to get down to 32 frames and 1.45 msec _without_ xruns :)
<holstein> i know right?
<holstein> i think its better :)
<holstein> ScottL: can the menu entry do the whole thing?
<holstein> add the PPA too?
<ScottL> i suppose it could, it would be starting a new app that we would need to make
<ScottL> but ailo's suggestion of a script that runs directly after installation and asks the user (or suggests to the user) to enable the ppa, install the kernel, and rebbot might work well also
<ScottL> again, we should probably identify how we want it to interface with the user and find the preferred method for that and then focus on how to implement it, maybe iterate and make concessions between user experience and our abilty to implement it
<holstein> i like the script even better
<holstein> so everyone sees it
<holstein> and gets to decide
<holstein> and that could be take out too
<holstein> easily
<ScottL> now that i've played more with the -lowlatency kernel i'm anxious to learn more about creating it from abogani 
<paultag> ScottL: I'm stoked to see forward progress on it :)
<ailo> hey, tanders12
 * abogani waves all
<ailo> Hey, AutoStatic.
<ailo> I'm wondering about the irq thing. How could we find out if irq conflicts still cause a lot of headache?
<AutoStatic> Hello ailo
<ailo> I've read a little about the juju, but I know so little to begin with
<AutoStatic> Running ffado-diag could already reveal if IRQ conflicts will cause headaches ;)
<ailo> I don't have a device myself, so I can't do any tests. Seems like you are perfect for the job, since you have a clear conflict. holstein has had no problems with -lowlatency, but I could of course ask him to check.
<abogani> What does that utility intend for "IRQ conflicts"? Irqs shared?
<AutoStatic> I'm using several FireWire devices with Ubuntu, both at home and at work. And they run better and more stable with a realtime kernel and rtirq
<AutoStatic> abogani: you mean ffado-diag?
<ailo> AutoStatic: Well, according to holstein he runs stable at less than 2ms with -lowlatency and firewire.
<abogani> AutoStatic: Yeah.
<AutoStatic> That's perfectly possible
<ailo> But I don't know about holstein's hardware..
<AutoStatic> abogani: ffado-diag also outputs something like cat /proc/interrupts
<AutoStatic> That's all actually
<AutoStatic> And you can run stable at less than 2ms but I wonder what will happen when you open up a DAW with a dozen plugins, some external softsynths and a sequencer
<ailo> AutoStatic: Sure. I have pci, and cannot use less than 64 frames/period without xruns. But it often depends on the apps too, I guess.
<ailo> Still, it seems very acceptable, and very stable.
<ailo> at least for the average user
<ailo> But, if there is a big problem with irq, I suppose it won't seem so for those who have it.
<AutoStatic> If that average user doesn't have a FireWire controller that shares its IRQ with other devices
<ailo> AutoStatic: Do you think you could try Natty on your laptop to find out?
<AutoStatic> Unfortunately no
<AutoStatic> If I would've more time I would love to do so
<AutoStatic> But unfortunately I have other priorities
<ailo> AutoStatic: No problem. Well find out sooner or later. I will check with the ffado guys, if they know something about that.
<ailo> It's too bad we don't have a live cd
<AutoStatic> About what? IRQ conflicts?
<ailo> Yes.
<AutoStatic> They have a Wiki page up about that
<AutoStatic> http://subversion.ffado.org/wiki/IrqPriorities
<ailo> I've seen it, I think, but I don't know what has changed with the juju stack
<AutoStatic> Not much really
<AutoStatic> I think
<ailo> So, you think it can be dealt with without rtirq, then?
<AutoStatic> I've never tried the JuJu stack
<AutoStatic> No, I don't think so
<ailo> But, maybe it has to be done manually then?
<AutoStatic> An IRQ conflict is an IRQ conflict
<AutoStatic> If a datastream from a Wifi controller interferes with a datastream of a FireWire controller than FFADO will nag
<AutoStatic> What do you mean by 'manually'?
<ailo> I don't know :). I was thinking maybe by tuning the system, either by shutting something down, or adjusting something else.
<ailo> Anyway, I'll check with that ffado guys, to see what they think.
<AutoStatic> You could disable devices by modprobe -r'ing them
<AutoStatic> Or unbind drivers (which is a bit more complicated)
<AutoStatic> But if your FireWire controller shares its IRQ with your GPU then you have a problem
<ailo> AutoStatic: Would you get the same kind of problems on Windows, or Mac?
<AutoStatic> Most probably yes
<AutoStatic> But Windows or Mac drivers are probably more forgiving
<AutoStatic> And more optimised for use with a specific FireWire soundcard
<ailo> That's why I'm thinking perhaps the new stack works a little better.
<AutoStatic> But then I have 0 experience with using FireWire soundcards with Windows or Mac
<abogani> You can always avoid Irq sharing change a single line in every drivers of interest.
<AutoStatic> abogani: You mean by fixing the IRQ's of the concerned devices?
<abogani> AutoStatic: Yes. it should be done with cautions but it a viable option for expert.
<AutoStatic> Never thought about that actually
<AutoStatic> Quite some work though ;)
<ailo> I just finished a script that checks some conditions: Is the user in audio group, Is -lowlatency installed, is the system running on a realtime capable kernel (-lowlatency/-realtime/-rt)
<ailo> I'm trying it with qjackctl. The script is run before startup.
<ailo> The idea is that it will notify the user if something is wrong.
<AutoStatic> So basically the same as this script: http://code.google.com/p/realtimeconfigquickscan/
<ailo> Not really. Mine is very simple and adapted to UbuntuStudio
<ailo> If the system is not running on realtime capable kernel, a notification can appear when starting jack from qjackctl
<abogani> ailo: Could you put it somewhere?
<ailo> Actually, it's not doing anything yet. Only checks the conditions. How do I do pastebin?
<ailo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/553561/
<ailo> I'm not a scripter :). So, propably there are a lot of mistakes
<AutoStatic> "If not, notify the user that realtime is impossible, and that firewire will most likely not work"
<AutoStatic> What do you mean by realtime?
<AutoStatic> Running JACK in realtime mode?
<ailo> Yes
<AutoStatic> You can run JACK in realtime mode with a generic kernel too
<ailo> No
<ailo> Not on Natty
<AutoStatic> Oh yeah the cgroups stuff
<ailo> The text should be replaced. I'm more worried that the functions are just hacks
<AutoStatic> Don't see any functions ;) Just a lot of if then clauses ;)
<AutoStatic> But looks good to me, but I'm not a Bash expert either ;)
<ailo> This kind of script could be tool to make sure the user know he's missing something. 
<ailo> In qjackctl there's options to run scripts. It would be perfect to have it there
<AutoStatic> You could try working with exit statuses
<AutoStatic> That will drastically simply your script
<AutoStatic> simplify
<ailo> What's that? I noticed I should have exit after checking if the user was root..
<ailo> The script should initiate one of two things: 1. If basic conditions are not met, then open Ubuntustudio-controls to fix them 2. If user is running on generic kernel, make a notification
<AutoStatic> http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/exit-status.html
<AutoStatic> It saves you from comparing the output on stdout to a a variable
<AutoStatic> If the exit status of a certain command is 0 than the command was succesful
<ailo> ok
<ailo> It's c thinking, I quess :)
<ailo> I can barely write hello world. I've spent too little time understanding those things. Seldom have time...
<AutoStatic> Same here
<ailo> lunchtime!
<AutoStatic> Same here ;)
<AutoStatic> Enjoy your lunch
<ScottL> abogani, did you see my comments earlier about "testing" -generic vs. -lowlatency?
<ScottL> abogani, from my rudimentary (and not audio centric) test -lowlatency performs *extremely* well
<ScottL> ailo, holstein and i were talking about this script last night, i'm wondering if a script run after installation of the OS that says,
<ScottL> "1. 'ello, we've noticed you don't have the awesome -lowlatnecy kernel, which is highly recommended, please click the 'make me awesome' button below to enable to ppa"
<ScottL> "2. next you will need to install (via synaptic or apt-get install) the -lowlatency kernel"
<ScottL> < or possible automate step #2 when the 'make me awesome' button is selected >
<ScottL> "3. reboot to experience awesomeness"
<ScottL> < or possible automate step #3 as well >
<abogani> ScottL: Happy to hear it.
<ScottL> "4. without this kernel most audio intefaces will suffer performance degredation due to inability to run with -rt privileges and firewire devices will most likely not work at all"
<ScottL> "5. these settings can also be adjusted at any time by using ubuntustudio-controls (System -> Administration -> Ubuntu Studio Controls )"
<ScottL> "6. Rock on"
<ScottL> ailo, this way it doesn't pester someone, but it pops up a dialogue right off the bat after installation
<ScottL> ailo, this can be part of one of the ubuntustudio-* packages rather than having to adjust a jack package
<ScottL> OR
<ScottL> perhaps we can add a tab to the ubuntustudio-controls for a system-tweak page
<ScottL> right after installation ubuntustudio-controls can be started and opened to this page with all the warning bells and whistles and flashing lights
<ScottL> abogani, i would also like to start learning how to build the -lowlatency kernel, how difficult would that be? 
<ScottL> abogani, and how would that be effected?
<ScottL> oh, ailo, you might also talk to paultag, he likes to code :)  he could probably be a big help with your script, et al
<ScottL> good morning kubotu 
<ScottL> oh, i forgot , you are muted ;)
<ScottL> why we have three (possibly 4) bots in here confuses (and concerns) me :/
<abogani> ScottL: Could you explain better what do you meant with previous two questions, please?
 * abogani doesn't feel well today and also his ability to understand English ...
<ScottL> abogani, i am sorry you are not feeling well, would you prefer to discuss this when you feel better?
<paultag> ScottL: what's up? :)
<ScottL> hi paultag, how are you this morning?  ailo is working on some scripts to help users with understanding they don't have the -lowlatency kernel (which is highly recommended or even necessary) and then install it
<ScottL> paultag, i thought you might give him some oversight or help in the coding department :)
<paultag> ScottL: I'm well, thanks!
<paultag> ScottL: sure, that's not hard at all :)
<paultag> ScottL: you can check in the /boot/ folder for a kernel with -lowlatency in the name, and with an up-to-date version string
<ScottL> paultag, to be honest though, we haven't really decided on a particular vector to help the use at this point though
<paultag> ScottL: aye, but if we check in /boot or on the grub menu, you can detect hand-rolled kernels
<paultag> as well as any installed kernels :)
<ScottL> paultag, ailo seems to prefer working with a script to start qjackctl to do this, i am advocating maybe a script that runs once at first boot after installation and pops open a dialogue box
<paultag> ScottL: I think I agree with you
<paultag> ScottL: It's easy enough to whip up something for python + GTK+ to inform people
<ScottL> paultag, here is what ailo has so far (i haven't looked at it though):  http://paste.ubuntu.com/553561/
<ScottL> paultag, you may not know, but when would someone use glade?
 * ScottL realizes that's kinda a cold question from nowhere
<paultag> ScottL: it's a good start, but it uses dpkg to find the kernel, and outdated kernels will pass that
<paultag> ScottL: Glade rules, it's for creating GTK+ XML files that you use in the app
<paultag> ScottL: with GUIs, you don't want to code it into bytecode, that's a waste. You create XML files that are read at runtime
<paultag> ScottL: so Glade is a really nice frontend to create these files
<ailo> Hi
<paultag> howdy ailo 
<ailo> My script was just an idea, but a way to perhaps make it easier for new users to know that they are missing something
<paultag> ailo: for sure
<ailo> It would only do something, if some condition was not met, that we would consider critical
<ailo> But, already using the generic kernel with jack, there is a critical problem in a way
<ScottL> paultag, so the XML are like the lv2 plugins sort of, you have a framework that reads the XML files and does things based on the XML file
<paultag> ScottL: exactly, at least for the GUI -- the actualy "meat" ( callbacks and stuff ) are all handled in "real" code
<paultag> the actual *
<abogani> ailo: Why don't you use zenity?
<ailo> To notify?
<ailo> I see. Zenity does more than that..
<ailo> I was meaning to either use zenity, or notify-send. Using an Ubuntustudio logo.
<paultag> oooh, I like notify-send
<paultag> on boot, bitch
<paultag> I dig it
<ailo> Also, my script would not be an all-in-one solution, just a small helper, just in case
<ailo> There's also the problem with which kernel is the default kernel
<paultag> ailo: screw it, there's an easy out
<paultag> ailo: on gnome login, run your script. check uname for the kernel name, and check if it has lowlatency in it
<paultag> ailo: if not, then send an angry notify message at the screen
<paultag> otherwise shut up ;)
<ScottL> ailo, did you see my suggestion about having it open to a 'system tweak' tab within ubuntustudio-controls?
<ailo> Yes, that was my plan too
<ScottL> oh good :)
<ailo> If user is not in audio group, or -lowlatency is not installed - run Ubuntustudio controls
<ailo> But there would be needed some explanation to why it pops up as well, perhaps
<paultag> ailo: I like having the notify send, so that if they're just writing a word doc, they're not bugged
<paultag> ailo: so just let them know every login that their kernel is crap
<ailo> hihi
<paultag> but in the background ;)
<paultag> it's also much easier to code :)
<paultag> ( and will handle updates, if they upgrade stock, but not lowlag )
<ailo> I suppose the best solution when installing Ubuntustudio audio stuff, is to include those things in the install script (like jackd has for setting realtime).
<ailo> Well, gotta go. Have fun.
<paultag> cheerio!
<ScottL> ailo, ubuntustudio-audio meta package depends on ubuntustudio-controls
<ScottL> ailo, paultag , holstein :  also try to remember that we need to consider both the user that installed via ubuntustudio ISO and one that "upgraded" from vanilla ubuntu
<ailo> ScottL: Yes. Quite important.
<paultag> ScottL: aye, if we take the "login check" route, it should do the same thing
<holstein> hey guys :)
<holstein> on my natty install, i "upgraded" from vanilla
<holstein> if that helps this process
<ScottL> paultag, we had also talked about fixing the editing of memory and rtprio with ubuntustudio-controls
<ScottL> paultag, you might look here for ubuntustudio-controls: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Proposed%20Improvements
<ScottL> i finally started working on the gnome-classic default xsession issue :)   it feels good to be making (hopefully) positive progress on it
<ScottL> holstein, yeah, i see the email again from colin watson about the ubuntustudio-video package :(   i'll look into it probably some tomorrow to see what's going on
<tanders12> abogani: are there any limitations to running your natty kernels on maverick?
<falktx> hey there
<falktx> ScottL: do you have a minute?
<holstein> tanders12: im using the -realtime one
<holstein> in maverick
<holstein> my wifi adapter seems to work occasionally with it
<holstein> other than that, its fine *and* dandy :)
<tanders12> holstein: yeah I was just wondering if there were any known issues other than wifi
<ScottL> falktx, yeah, i'll be in and about with the kids and dogs, but i'm here
<holstein> ScottL: im running out too
<falktx> ScottL: too late now
<holstein> but as always, if i can help with that issue, PM me or something
<holstein> im up late :)
<tanders12> holstein: if your laptop has your graphics and fw on the same IRQ is there anything you can do?
<holstein> tanders12: i was told there is
<holstein> the bios *when possible
<holstein> other than that
<holstein> i think there is a software solution
<holstein> but ive never needed to try it
<tanders12> hm
<tanders12> ok
<holstein> tanders12: someone in #opensourcemusicians was either doing it
<holstein> or trying it
<holstein> didnt keep track of the results
<tanders12> i think ill start with the ffado irq info and go from there
<tanders12> the thing is that windows doesn't seem to have any glitches so i wonder whats up
<holstein> hmmm
<holstein> tanders12: you said TI chip right?
<tanders12> yeah
<tanders12> shared with i915 and yenta
<tanders12> but i think yenta is the controller
<holstein> tanders12: what is the issue?
<holstein> lots of xruns?
<tanders12> xruns
<tanders12> ^^
<holstein> at what latencey?
<tanders12> aprox every minute
<tanders12> any latency
<holstein> drag
<holstein> you could try a couple of live CD's
<holstein> that would be easy
<tanders12> easiest way to cause an xrun is to minimize/maximize ardour
<holstein> the old 64studio one
<holstein> AVLinux
<holstein> and maybe pure-dyne
<tanders12> hm good ide4a
<tanders12> i was gonna try lucid as well
<holstein> that would be a nice cross-section of different kernels
<holstein> and different verions of JACK
<holstein> and the firewire stack too
<holstein> tanders12: i would be interested in natty
<holstein> with abogani 's -lowlatency kernel
<holstein> seems to work *so* well with my hardware
<holstein> not that you want to run natty on a production box right now
<tanders12> well
<tanders12> my lappy has issues with unity
<tanders12> that im trying to iron out
<holstein> you can choose gnome
<holstein> classic startup
<holstein> tanders12: IF you install natty
<holstein> ping me
<holstein> id like to try some tests with you
<tanders12> already installed the alpha
<holstein> to confirm the new firewire settigns
<holstein> settings*
<holstein> tanders12: OH
<holstein> how is it?
<tanders12> unity crashed in 5 min
<holstein> tanders12: if you get a minute
<holstein> get jackd
<holstein> and the -lowlatency kernel
<holstein> add yourself to the audio group
<holstein> and see if jack starts
<tanders12> k
<holstein> i want to confirm those are the only steps needed
<tanders12> do you have to use the alternate iso in order to use gnome?
<holstein> nop
<holstein> e
<holstein> tanders12: at login
<tanders12> ok
<holstein> down at the bottom
<holstein> 'session' i think its called
<holstein> you want classic session
<holstein> thats good 'ol gnome
<tanders12> im in the middle of an arch install on another machine right now but it's using this one for internet sharing but I'll try it later on
<holstein> tanders12: im heading out too
<holstein> whenever you get a chance
<tanders12> k ill let you know how it goes
<holstein> next couple days or whatever
<tanders12> k
<holstein> i just wanted to catch you before you did anything else
<holstein> video group or udev
<tanders12> ah makes sense
<tanders12> yeah Ill start with what you said and figure out what the minimum needed is
<holstein> cool :)
<holstein> im outty... laterx..
<tanders12> cya
<ScottL> anyone know what falktx wanted?
<ailo> tanders12: You there?
<tanders12> ailo: yeah hows it goin?
<ailo> Good. I finally remembered what I was supposed to tell you last time (no big deal)
<tanders12> lol
<ailo> It was about getting dependencies for source code. I told you: sudo apt-get build jack
<ailo> I mean, sudo apt-get build-dep jack
<ailo> But, of course it should be, sudo apt-get build-dep jackd
<ailo> Like the package
<tanders12> right
<ailo> Anyway, you having problems with firewire?
<tanders12> just the same old xruns
<ailo> Usually that would go away with rtirq script together with an rt kernel.
<tanders12> i still have a lot of improvements i can make though, like IRQs and getting natty going
<tanders12> dont know what rtirq is...
<ailo> http://alsa.opensrc.org/Rtirq
<ailo> It's a script that together with the rt patch gives higher priority to audio devices.
<ailo> It usually comes natively with an rt-kernel, if a distro has that.
<tanders12> ooo nice
<ailo> I'm still not sure whether this is still a problem on Natty, though. Or as big of a problem.
<tanders12> one problem i have right now is that the firewire on my laptop shares an irq bus with the graphics chip :/
<ailo> If you ever try Natty with the -lowlatency kernel, let us know of the results.
<ailo> Otherwise, I can at least recommend Ubuntu Karmic vintage. Haven't messed around with Lucid so much.
<tanders12> im planning to try natty w/ lowlatency first, and if that doesn't work lucid
<tanders12> or possibly pursue maverick running the natty kernel
<ailo> On Natty, all you have to do is install the -lowlatency and add yourself to the audio group
<tanders12> and ive almost got my arch system going. the base install is done i just need to add a gui :D
<ailo> The same udev rules file you used on Maverick comes installed by default on Natty, in /lib/udev/rules.d/*
<tanders12> nice
<ailo> I should try arch sometime. Never got around to it yet. Never tried Slackware either..
<tanders12> i love how stuff gets done in the linux world
<tanders12> on the other hand i hate how things get broken all the time...
<tanders12> but it sounds like natty's gonna be pretty sweet for audio if they get the cgroups thing under control
<ailo> I don't know what will happen on the cgroups front before Natty release. They seem to be working on that.
<ailo> At least the -lowlatency kernel rocks, and is not affected
<ailo> Probably there will be a new way to get realtime in the future, if I've understood things correctly.
<tanders12> the official one, or the abogani?
<ailo> The official is -generic, which sucks for audio right now. -lowlatency is aboganis.
<tanders12> ok thats what i thought
<tanders12> have you ever built a kernel
<ailo> Or, alessio boganis :).
<tanders12> ?
<ailo> Yes, I did LFS a couple of times, but I didn't spend much time with it
<ailo> It's not so difficult to build the kernel itself. As long as you are using the same source as the distribution uses.
<ailo> But, from what I understand, things can get a little messy when applying patches, like the rt patch.
<tanders12> i might try doing a custom one with the rt patch and that "200 line" superpatch
<tanders12> but if i do it wont be for a while
<ailo> Nice initiative from Ralf to start a tut in the mail list. You saw it?
<tanders12> no?
<ailo> It's on the ubuntustudio-user list. How to build a kernel.
<ailo> On this thread: Fernando's comment on Ubuntu Distro's where the Tascam US-122
<ScottL> hi rlameiro  :)
<rlameiro> ScottL: hey! how are you ?
<tanders12> ailo: aw ok
<tanders12> ill check it out
<ScottL> rlameiro, i'm doing well, been real busy with family today and didn't do much for ubuntu studio so i'm a little bummed about it, but how are you today?
<ScottL> ailo, if you are interested in slackware for audio you might look into: http://www.slackermedia.info/
<ScottL> ailo, that's klaatu's guide, he's pretty hip about many things
<rlameiro> ScottL: going to try some stuff on my arm board
<rlameiro> I think ubuntu has a serious bug on some usb audio devices....
<rlameiro> i check it at maverick on ARM, then maverick on x86 same problem
<rlameiro> so i need to check it in natty
<ailo> rlameiro: What kind of problems?
<tanders12> rlameiro: yeah, I think the bug is called "I can't handle USB 2.0" ;)
<rlameiro> no 2.10
<rlameiro> 2.0
<rlameiro> its a 1.1 device
<rlameiro> and edirol ua4fx
<tanders12> yeah i was just kidding
<tanders12> anyone know off the top of their heads how NEC firewire chipsets typically do?
<rlameiro> the system recognizes the device but can play. doesnt show up on pulseaudio and after trying to play something via alsa (via aplay) it outputs some error about audio format
<rlameiro> audio -----> TI
<ailo> Thanks for the info ScottL. Never heard of that until now (but didn't look for it yet).
<tanders12> yes I know, but I have an NEC laying here and I'm gonna try it and see how it does
<rlameiro> tanders12: well, then share your findings with us
<rlameiro> I have a ricoh... not bad, but nothing like the ti chips
<ailo> rlameiro: did you try jack?
<tanders12> rlameiro: for sure
<ailo> (just checking..)
<rlameiro> ailo: yeap. first thing :D
<ailo> rlameiro: I read about it a little. It says that you can't control a lot of stuff with Linux, right?
<ailo> rlameiro: Maybe it's locked in a bad samplerate
<rlameiro> it is something about the sambple and bit rate format
<ailo> rlamerio: did you try it with Windows, or mac. You might be able to change the settings. (just fishing)
<rlameiro> it works, I am using it in Lucid
<rlameiro> it stoped working in maverick
<rlameiro> my guess is something on the kernel
<rlameiro> there were a lot of usb drivers changes, and i remeber that this board needed a quirck to the usb audio driver
<ailo> Ok. Well, it seems Maverick is suffering quite a few problems, then :(
<rlameiro> I will test it better and check what its hapening, hopefully its fixed in natty
<tanders12> yeah maverick is definitely havin audio issues
<rlameiro> yeah, we had a bad release... it wasnt a perfect 10...
<tanders12> lol
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-14
<falktx> ScottL: i'm back, do you have some time now?
<falktx> I started working on the new -controls thing
<ailo> falktx: There was some discussion earlier about how to implement installing a new kernel and adding user to audio group.
<falktx> ailo: oh, cool
<ailo> One of the ideas was to implement it into the installation of Ubuntustudio, or Ubuntustudio packages
<ailo> How far did you come on the controls?
<falktx> hm, kernel might work, but not sure how to add a user to audio if running as root (no way to tell which is the current user)
<falktx> ailo: well, for that, I have good news and bad news
<falktx> ailo: which first?
<ailo> I don't judge.
<falktx> you may consider both good news, not sure
<falktx> let me make some screenshots
<rlameiro> are you making the controls in Qt?
<falktx> rlameiro: yes
<falktx> kinda
<rlameiro> hummm well, it easier :D
<falktx> rlameiro: do you know about my patchbay project ?
<rlameiro> klaudia?
<rlameiro> I can try to help you on the controls..
<rlameiro> I did ported it to gtkbuilder
<rlameiro> from glade
<falktx> rlameiro: i prefer to start from scratch
<falktx> rlameiro: ailo: recent screenshot of my patchbay app -> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr105.jpg
<rlameiro> falktx: yeah, of course
<rlameiro> but you can take ideas from the project already done
<falktx> rlameiro: yes
<falktx> so let's start with the good news
<ailo> falktx: I saw it before. Looks nice.
<rlameiro> nice!!!!
<falktx> this is the good news:
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr102.jpg
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr103.jpg
<rlameiro> it looks a mix of patchage with controls :D
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr104.jpg
<falktx> rlameiro: ailo: ^ this is my version of -controls, that is not mockup, but the start of the app design
<rlameiro> That is more or less my first idea :D
<ailo> falktx: Looks nice
<falktx> now the "bad" news
<rlameiro> :(
<falktx> it won't be part of UbuntuStudio
<rlameiro> why?
<rlameiro> because its Qt?
<falktx> I'll develop to continue my idea of the next kxstudio
<falktx> this app will integrate into my other app, like the patchbay, in a all-in-one jack solution
<falktx> I already have the patchbay, a jack-logs viewer, jack-render app, and a gui to configure jack
<ailo> falktx: How about making a simplified version for Ubuntustudio?
<falktx> If I join some work I've already done for kxstudio, I'm guessing the app will be very cool
<falktx> ailo: my plan is to create an app that will work on any distro, any version of linux
<ailo> ok
<rlameiro> yea
<rlameiro> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr102.jpg
<falktx> ailo: If I worked close to US, than only ubuntu would benefit from it
<rlameiro> here is stated "linux distributiono" bla bla bla
<rlameiro> soo its made thinking on that :D
<falktx> yes
<rlameiro> falktx: not necessarily
<rlameiro> it your software 
<falktx> ailo: all my code is gpl, and all the modules are in different files, so it will be very easy to implement them on new apps
<rlameiro> Also diferent distro have diferent place to setup stuff, so everyone would need to adapt it to each distro
<falktx> rlameiro: that's where it comes in
<falktx> rlameiro: I already have a team setup to help in this
<falktx> rlameiro: first step is to handle jack properly in all DEs (mostly gnome, kde and xcfe)
<rlameiro> Qt works well
<falktx> rlameiro: https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/
<rlameiro> is that an invite? falktx ?
<falktx> rlameiro: just say 'yes' if you wanna join
<rlameiro> yes
<rlameiro> :)
<rlameiro> lol
<falktx> rlameiro: give me the link to your launchpad page
<rlameiro> everything for the good to the community
<rlameiro> https://launchpad.net/~rlameiro
<falktx> rlameiro: done, you're on the team now
<rlameiro> :)
<falktx> rlameiro: I'll publish some docs about the team tasks soon... ;)
<rlameiro> ok
<falktx> rlameiro: afaik, everytime I do a package upload, you'll get a mail about it
<rlameiro> falktx: take in mind that my main task on US is testing...
<rlameiro> I am on the process of learning C and python
<rlameiro> and also playing around with ARM
<falktx> rlameiro: don't worry, I plan to do most of the work
<rlameiro> lol
<ailo> falktx: Is there some place where one can see what you are planning to do?
<falktx> rlameiro: but AutoStatic joined the team too, so he will help in packaging too
<rlameiro> falktx: you should make an Amazon wishlist dude
<holstein> i get emails when falktx is hard at work 
<holstein> package updates :)
<falktx> hehe, sorry for that holstein
<holstein> falktx: no, i like it
<falktx> holstein: did you get the new ones about patchage, raul, etc?
<rlameiro> well, then we need to clarify what is needed for the new Studio controls 
<holstein> falktx: i think so
<holstein> falktx: they just kinda go by
<rlameiro> at least for now...
<falktx> ailo: rlameiro: this is an old doc I made some time ago - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/KXStudio-Team.odt (outdated!)
<holstein> and im starting to know what the packages are
<holstein> and what they do
<ailo> falktx: office document? Was empty.
<falktx> ailo: no, it's not...
<falktx> ailo: i just opened it
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> ailo: you trying OO.o ?
<ailo> hostein: I think its' firefox 4 on Natty. It won't open magnet links either. I have to download files before I can open them. Same thing here.
<holstein> yeah, plausible
<holstein> FF4 is nice though
<rlameiro> very nice 
<holstein> faster again
<rlameiro> falktx: what control modules do you have?
<rlameiro> maybe i can hack something for natty...
<falktx> holstein: lol, you remind me of mythbusters...
<holstein> ;)
<falktx> rlameiro: right now (the code already done or that I can copy) is...
<falktx> jack-config
<falktx> jack-logs
<falktx> jack-patchbay
<falktx> audio-plugins-path
<falktx> default-applications
<falktx> user-groups
<falktx> firewire/ hpet, rtc permissions
<falktx> hm...
<ScottL> falktx, yes i have time :)
<ailo> falktx: I was told you were doing something unifying. (I would like to help in that respect.)
<falktx> ScottL: oh, please read backlog
<rlameiro> ok, so maybe i will need is the jack config ans the firewire  and hpet etc...
<falktx> ailo: "unifying" ?
<ailo> Not distro dependant.
<rlameiro> unificador falktx 
<falktx> rlameiro: one hany thing not done yet is wine/wineasio stuff
<falktx> ailo: yes, the document clears a few things
<rlameiro> falktx: no problem, i dont think it is a very important
<rlameiro> if it is ppa based you can roll out updates easily
<falktx> rlameiro: I want to make it compatible with winetricks, so that useful dlls can be easily installed
<falktx> rlameiro: the PPA is just for packaging, I really dont want to force these new tools for ubuntu-only
<falktx> at least they should on debian too... hehe
<rlameiro> falktx: I am talking for testing :D
<falktx> rlameiro: ha, yes
<falktx> rlameiro: in fact, the new PPAs are almost ready!
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/ppa
<ScottL> falktx, that's cool that your work on -controls won't be part of ubuntu studio
<ScottL> falktx, i think ailo and paultag are going to make some good progress together
<ScottL> falktx, have you made any progress on getting ladish into debian?
<falktx> ScottL: as soon as it gets beta, I'll try to push it to debian
<ScottL> falktx, excellent!
<falktx> ScottL: on ladish progress, I need some help
<ScottL> falktx, oh?  is it something quadrispro can help with?
<ScottL> falktx, i forgot i told you i would find some links for you to help get ladish into debian, i'll try to find those tonight/tomorrow morning
<falktx> ScottL: yes
<ScottL> falktx, the debian multimedia team is really good giving feedback when you post to their git and send email to the mailing list
<falktx> ScottL: i think I told you before, I already have the package in revu
<ScottL> falktx, i mean they are awesome!
<ScottL> falktx, yes, but REVU moves extremely slow compared to DMT, you will probably receive a reply email within 24 hours on the DMT mailing list
<falktx> ScottL: yep, I think I'll never use revu again
<ScottL> falktx, i can only surmise that it works for *something*, but apparently not very well for audio centric packages
<ailo> What's the deal with debian. Abstractions (tasksels and settings) stay in Ubuntu, but all the individual packages go to Debian?
<ScottL> ailo, no, it's not really a hard, fast rule...at least for audio packages
<ScottL> it's more a logistical consideration
<rlameiro> time to sleep
<rlameiro> cya tomorrow
<ScottL> they have mad packages and developers who work packages super aggresively and rapidly
<ScottL> goodnight rlameiro 
<ScottL> s/packages/packagers
<ScottL> ailo, and they have quite a number of packagers/developers as well
<ScottL> and by "they" i mean the debian multimedia team (DMT)
<ailo> So, you guys don't think you'll move to Debian entirely with time?
<ScottL> ailo, one last thing: every release, all packages that are not in ubuntu will sync automatically from debian into ubuntu
<ScottL> ailo, re: move to debian, i suppose it's a possibility :/ 
<ScottL> ailo, and i suppose it depends on which direction shuttleworth keeps pushing ubuntu and whether it's more direct or less troublesome with debian (?)
<ailo> ScottL: I don't suppose Ubuntu will become too one-minded?
<ScottL> ailo, i consider it a real possibility within several releases
<ailo> Debian seems like a safe haven.
<falktx> ubuntu likes to break the rules
<falktx> debian/rules, hehe
<ScottL> i think mark wants to make something _different_ than other linux distros, to stand apart from the others, and directed toward the masses
<falktx> ScottL: i think mark just wants to imitate Mac
<ailo> ScottL: That seems to have been one of its strengths. Now perhaps Ubuntu is movin towards tablets.
<ScottL> eh, i'm not that sure about that, but i could be wrong falktx 
<falktx> ScottL: he, the notify-osd, globalmenu, and bunch of other stuff that are just ripped off mac's
<ailo> But Ubuntu should make two flavors, classic and new
<ScottL> ailo, but i think they will still offer a desktop release, but it may be buried under layers of "improvements" as to be very difficult to make an audio distro
<falktx> ailo: from time to time I began to feel the need to look for other distros
<falktx> but the PPAs are just the greatest thing...
<ScottL> but to be forthcoming, fixing unity xsession really doesn't seem to be that big of a deal at this time
<ailo> ScottL: falktx: Audio devs need to have a common face and a common goal on the basic system.
<ScottL> mark has done a lot of things different, launchpad instead of a normal git repo, not contributing to kernel, gnome as much, unity and wayland vs gnome
<ScottL> i really doubt he'll simply copy the mac
<ScottL> ailo, that would really help audio work i believe
<falktx> hm...
<ailo> Ubuntu is big, so a unified kernel would not be bad
<ailo> Who is talking with the linux kernel devs about audio issues?
<ScottL> i fully believe we will get the -lowlatency kernel into the repositories, just may be in natty+1
<ScottL> ailo, i believe abogani keeps up with upstream
<ScottL> i don't know how much "discourse" occurs, he may only read posts and mailing lists
<ScottL> ailo, what would you like to see different in the kernel for audio?
<ailo> Just thinking about this cgroups thing
<ailo> No one was prepared
<ailo> It could be good to have an alternative kernel in the repo (or a couple) and let distros be based outside of Ubuntu.
<ailo> So, the kernel syncs with all the other system stuff, like graphic drivers (don't know so much, other than that there have been problems in the past).
<ailo> The -lowlatency is gold
<ailo> An -rt kernel on top of that would be platinum
<ailo> Debian seems to be the place for software packages
<ailo> Maybe desktop setups is a place for PPA's?
<ailo> (I mean PPA's being the place for Desktop Setups)
<ailo> Puredune, Tango Studio, KXStudio, Ubuntustudio... same kernel, but different settings
<ailo> Might as well be
<ailo> What is the best strategy for the future? 
<ailo> After putting all packages into Debian, the move to Debian won't be so difficult.
<ailo> If needed
<falktx> ailo: have you heard of the new kernel-for-multimedia thing? 
<ailo> No
 * holstein reading about http://liquorix.net/
<falktx> ailo: ha, holstein got it, http://liquorix.net/
<ailo> falktx: I did read about it at one time
<ailo> falktx: How does it work with Ubuntu?
<holstein> falktx: OH, i thought you had a different project to link :)
<holstein> i wouldnt have stolen it from you
<holstein> i was just literally reading about that in the browser
<ailo> Debian sid, aha
<ailo> And arch..
<falktx> ailo: i can easily rebuild that stuff in PPAs
<falktx> ailo: using the exact same configs and sources
<falktx> anyone interested?
<holstein> falktx: i'll try it
<holstein> i was thinking about trying it in squeeze
<ailo> falktx: Do you know what is the deal with that? Is it like the -lowlatency?
<falktx> holstein: i think I'll push it to the kernel PPA
<falktx> ailo: I have no idea...
<ailo> I tried Debian with -rt once. Don't remember if I tried this one
<ailo> Got kernel panic
<ailo> It was a short marriage
<ailo> But maybe such a project should be encouraged
<falktx> well, I'll try to package it now!
<ailo> falktx: How do you feel about communicating about long-term stuff with other audio distro friends?
<falktx> ailo: i spoke with linux mint guys about making an audio distro and join with kxstudio, they rejected
<falktx> ailo: i spoke with GMaq from avlinux too, but he's into debian
<falktx> 64studio is dead
<falktx> other distros are just crappy, and many stole my work (dreamstudio...)
<falktx> the only good audio distros I see now are avlinux and kxstudio
<falktx> no offense to US, but it's has it's issues
 * falktx believes in honesty
<ailo> I was pretty happy with puredyne. It's XFCE, though
<ailo> Karmic -rt kernel
<falktx> ailo: oh, but I consider that has "live" distro only, not really for install
<ailo> They do install too
<falktx> like gnuguitar ?
<ailo> And you can have it live on usb, and still install packages, add users
<falktx> nice
<ailo> It's the best I've tried in that sence
<ailo> Except for having to put up with XFCE, which is buggy on some platforms, I think
<ailo> They had an alternative wm, nothing on, except access to a terminal, pretty much
<ailo> To make the live-usb, you would probably need to have Karmic installed. Otherwise the script doesn't seem to work
<ailo> falktx: How do you solve jack remembering which card is chosen after reboot?
<falktx> ailo: jackdbus does that by default
<falktx> ailo: but I have an option to load a specifc ladish studio at login, which also does this
<falktx> the new GUI (-controls alternative) will also have this
<ailo> It does? How is that started? I asked this question on lau, and some jack people didnt give me this answer, strangely enough.
<ailo> I mean, on the previous question
<falktx> ailo: jack is started pre-kde, before kde even starts
<falktx> ailo: kde allows this (running scripts before kde itself)
<ailo> I guess I should give it a try :)
<falktx> ailo: the new app should be able to this in all DEs, not just kde
<falktx> I hope gnome supports this
<ScottL> i think one strong division between ubuntu and ubuntu studio is that ubuntu tends to focus on a new user experience on the desktop
<ScottL> rather than keeping a stable base and only updating applications and providing function over form
<ailo> falktx: I am like rlameiro, only learning to code. I know a little this and that. How could I be of help in your project?
<falktx> ailo: looking for how to implment stuff on gnome
<falktx> ailo: the pre-session script start for example
<ailo> You can find me on https://launchpad.net/~ailo.at
<ailo> I'm interested in two things. Basic system compatibility, and ease of use.
<falktx> 24 karma
<ailo> Yes, funny
<falktx> ailo: so you wanna join too?
<ailo> Sure. I am looking to get more involved.
 * falktx has 26370 of karma
<falktx> ailo: thanks!!
<falktx> i love when people say things like this..!
<ailo> I'm staying with US too, though, at least for this release. I am doing mostly testing, and finding results.
<falktx> ailo: to be honest...
<falktx> ailo: I hope to drop kxstudio soon and help US instead
<falktx> this is a nice way to move users, without loosing anything
<ailo> Well, I'm just looking to get involved, as I said.
<falktx> well, I appreciate
<falktx> ScottL: ailo: btw, we (team) have a mailing list, so it would be nice for you to join (https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/ -> bottom left)
<ailo> falktx: I see you've started packaging for Natty.
<falktx> ailo: yes, but it has some issues
<falktx> ailo: python and fltk packages FTBFS
<ailo> New versions?
<falktx> ailo: not sure for fltk, but python error come from ubuntu
<falktx> heh, in liquorix changelog -> "remove cfs-low-latency features - performs worse with 2.6.37 backports"
<ailo> ?
<ailo> falktx: Do you compile kernels at any point? You seem to be pretty busy otherwise.
<falktx> ailo: no, I only compiled a kernel once
<falktx> ailo: I'm busy with learning new code, and making "cadence" (that new tool)
<falktx> ailo: i take some time sometime I package backports now
<falktx> err, one "I" by mistake
<falktx> hm, I need to sleep
<ailo> Good night.
<falktx> ailo: not yet
<falktx> i said I needed to sleep, not that I was going to.. heeh
<ailo> Well, let us all know when you will :)
<falktx> sure
<falktx> :)
<falktx> ailo: I'm finishing the import of the liquorix kernel
<falktx> arr, damn, failed
<ailo> falktx: It will lack some Ubuntu stuff, right? What is the diff?
<falktx> ailo: my internet sucks, so I was viewing it through SSH
<falktx> ailo: but I noticed a lot of patches
<falktx> it seems like cfs and bfs enabled
<falktx> cgroups too
<paultag> ScottL: I'm here to get dirty, man.
<paultag> RE make progress ( and so on )
<ailo> falktx: I think it's this that would have caused no realtime: # CONFIG_BLK_CGROUP is not set
<ailo> No, sorry
<ailo> falktx: # CONFIG_RT_GROUP_SCHED is not set
<falktx> ailo: I'm not the best guy for these kind of questions...
<falktx> ailo: and I already closed SSH, so I can't check now
<falktx> but...
<ailo> According to jack's faq, it is (I think)..
<falktx> ailo: http://liquorix.net/sources/36/
<falktx> config are there
<falktx> # CONFIG_RT_GROUP_SCHED is not set
<ailo> falktx: Yeah, I looked them over a little bit.
<falktx> so no realtime possible with this kernel
<ailo> falktx: Isn't it the other way around? http://jackaudio.org/linux_group_sched
<falktx> hm, not sure
<ailo> Anyway, interesting with bfs and cfs. Seems like a lot of configs to consider, when compiling..
<ailo> falktx: Do you have a notification tray app?
<ailo> Could be a good place to place the controls.
<falktx> ailo: i do
<falktx> ailo: you should try the code I already have, in the patchbay
<falktx> ailo: so you can already try the jack-logs, jack-config and jack-render tools
<ailo> paultag: What are you doing now on US?
<ailo> I mean, what's your plan?
<paultag> ailo: I've got no plan. I've got day-to-day stuff with Ubuntu general, so I'm here for my 10% time, if you will
<paultag> ailo: so if you have stuff hanging around, let me know and I can patch and stuff
<ScottL> ailo, paultag:  how much involvement do you want from me?  i'm certainly not a coder
<ailo> paultag: What are your thoughts about adding some system checking?
<paultag> ailo: I'm all for it. If you have a list of tasks I can prototype out stuff
<ailo> Maybe the notification is a good start?
<paultag> ailo: sure :)
<paultag> ScottL: a sepc doc would rock my socks
<paultag> ScottL: I like having goals we can nail
<paultag> personally
<paultag> and I'm by no means driving ailo stuiff. I'm playing barback
<paultag> i'm just here to help and patch :)
<ailo> paultag: Did you see my script? Not very fancy, and meant for qjackctl.
<paultag> ailo: yeah I saw it, great start -- IMHO it can be squashed a bit into a < 20 liner
<ScottL> paultag, i thought about making a blueprint of sorts, just to spec things out, i can have it tomorrow
<paultag> ailo: but I'm thinking of a login checker, not a qjackctl starter
<paultag> ScottL: :)
<ScottL> paultag, although you and ailo will certainly have some say in it and correct and add to to it
<paultag> ScottL: sure :)
<ailo> paultag: sure. I'm sure my script is nonsense, but if you can use any of it http://paste.ubuntu.com/553561/
<ailo> Or, how do you do a system-check at bootup?
 * falktx checks too
<paultag> ailo: let me hack something up quickly and paste it
<falktx> ailo: I personally recommend using python, if possible
<paultag> falktx: overkill imho
<paultag> falktx: this is just a quick check, not a fullblown app
<ailo> falktx: I have just begun to learn python. I can only redo stuff right now on python.
<paultag> it'd just be system calls anyway ;)
<falktx> ailo: and I wish to know more C++, I start to feel python "slowlyness" on my bigger apps
<ailo> At least checking if the kernel is realtime capable would be nice. How else to do that, than to check if it not named -lowlatency -rt or -realtime
<paultag> ailo: that runs into issues, it's really hard to check that
<falktx> uname -a
<paultag> falktx: -r *
<ailo> My check seems to work, though
<holstein> well, after the generic one gets 'good enough'
<holstein> whenever that is
<holstein> it wont matter right?
<falktx> paultag: yes
<holstein> we just need a different kernel that vanilla for now
<holstein> than*
<ailo> Even with the generic working, isn't the -lowlatency to be regarded as a -generic kernel for music?
<holstein> paultag: good to see you here :)
<holstein> thanks for you're attention and time
<falktx> ailo: on python:
<falktx> rt_yesno = commans.getoutput("uname -r")
<falktx> if ("-realtime" in rt_yesno or "-rt" in rt_yesno): ...
<falktx>   print ...
<falktx> rt_yesno = commands.getoutput("uname -r")  [sorry for the typo]
<ailo> falktx: Seems like simpler syntax then what I was doing, but I googled to get mine :)
<ailo> lowlatency_running=$(echo `expr match "$linux_version" '.*\(lowlatency\)'`)
<falktx> ailo: for users could be like:
<ailo> if [ $lowlatency_running = "lowlatency" ]...
<falktx> audio_yesno = commands.getoutput("groups"); if ("audio" in audio_yesno): ...
<paultag> guys
<paultag> this is all overkill
<paultag> http://pastebin.com/P5EuLZT8
<paultag> run that on login, be done with it
<paultag> I've not tested that
<paultag> but it looks right
<paultag> Oh shucks, quotes around notify-send
<falktx> paultag: yes, i got:
<falktx> Invalid number of options.
<falktx> hehe
<paultag> http://pastebin.com/PkCbaac9
<paultag> not bad for writing it in pastebin ;)
<falktx> paultag: i can do better
<paultag> just run that on login ever time, have it so when you click on the notify, open software center to download the lowlag kernel
<paultag> falktx: have at it. That's a 2 minute script that I wrote in a webfield
<paultag> I'm saying -- python is overkill
<paultag> you have to import system calls and libnotify
<falktx> paultag: hm, you can use os.system
<paultag> falktx: still, python is sub par -- you're pulling up a VM to do system calls, and regex parsing when it can be done in bash with a one-liner
<paultag> falktx: python is good for complex stuff -- not for checking a kernel version
<ailo> paultag: It's not working right. No errors, so maybe the variable matching is not working right?
<paultag> ailo: I tested it, try overriding RELEASE to a ll string
<paultag> ailo: it's all working, and should handle hand-rolled kernels with a good name
<ailo> This is the name of lowlatency: 2.6.37-11-lowlatency
<paultag> falktx: I'd use python if we needed floating point math for a multi-agent system with talking threads
<paultag> ailo: so set RELEASE="2.6.37-11-lowlatency"
<falktx> ...
<paultag> ailo: after the uname call, it handles it fine :)
<ailo> paultag: Yeah, but we don't want to use the numbers to do the match, right?
<paultag> ailo: nope. It just uses a grep
<ailo> My way only checks for the name "lowlatency"
<paultag> ailo: keep it simple ;)
<falktx> err, anyway, http://pastebin.com/AVchBVi3
<paultag> falktx: I mean, yeah -- but that's just wrapping bash calls
<falktx> i know, it's bad
<paultag> :)
<paultag> if it works, it works
<paultag> ailo: do you see what it's doing?
<paultag> good 'nuf for goverment work ;)
<falktx> time to go, bye eveyone!
<paultag> falktx: cheers!
<ailo> paultag: I added my way to it http://pastebin.com/HTwaQjNw
<paultag> ailo: $linux_version is undefined
<ailo> It will work regardless of the version number.
<paultag> ailo: might want to put a uname -r in there
<paultag> ailo: and my way will work just as well -- remember it uses grep
<ailo> Ah, sorry
<paultag> ;)
<ailo> Ah, forget it. I'm too tired. But still, don't we need that, in case of upgrades?
<paultag> ailo: upgrades don't matter to us :)
<paultag> ailo: as long as the kernel has that string in it, we're fine
<paultag> ailo: if the kernel has generic, we'll complain again
<ailo> paultag: Yeah, that's what I mean.
<paultag> ailo: give it some testcases :)
<ailo> paultag: I would like to give it some time tomorrow and look it over.
<paultag> ailo: rock on dude. I'll be online for a little while. That's nothing good or anything, just some crap I mocked up to prove a point -- no python needed ;)
<paultag> ailo: I'll watch email, too -- my irc nick @ ubuntu
<ailo> paultag: thanks! I'll be around.
<paultag> ailo: rock on!
<ScottL> paultag, it's not only cool that you are helping get stuff done but also that you share knowledge as well!
<paultag> ScottL: thanks dude, I'm one of the founding members of the Ubuntu Beginners Team -- been helping beginners with Ubuntu since 2007 
<paultag> ScottL: it's just how I roll at this point ;)
<paultag> not that I have anyting special to impart, really
<ScottL> good morning abogani
<ScottL> i saw your comments in https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/695892
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 695892 in Ubuntu Studio "no live CD for ubuntustudio" [Wishlist,New]
<ScottL> do you know how to make a live cd/dcd within the buildd system?
<ScottL> hi rlameiro 
 * ScottL is going back to bed now the he let the puppies out to do their "business"
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> ScottL, have a good night then :D
<rlameiro> abogani, hey man:D
<rlameiro> how are you?
<rlameiro> are you doing some stuff with arduinno lately?
<abogani> ScottL: Good morning!
<abogani> ScottL: Really I don't know. I made some livecds but not within buildd infrastructure...
 * abogani waves all!
<tanders12> abogani; Hey could I ask a question?
<paultag> !ask | tanders12 
<ubottu> tanders12: Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<paultag> ;)
<paultag> Wow, that's much more rude the ours in ubt
<abogani> tanders12: Yes
<ailo> paultag: I was thinking more about the notification script. Suppose someone builds their own -rt kernel. What should decide the user is running the wrong kernel?
<ailo> abogani: I suspect kernel 2.6.38 is to be in Natty, right? They are talking about a fix to solve realtime. Do you know anything about that?
<tanders12> ;)
<tanders12> sorry i just woke up
<abogani> ailo: No.
<tanders12> abogani: are there known issues with running your natty kernels on maverick, other than networking?
<abogani> tanders12: No but you have to update it manually.
<abogani> ailo: ping
<ailo> abogani: I'm still new to irq. What's a ping? :)
<abogani> ailo: It's a way to call you. And you should reply "pong"
<ailo> abogani: I will have to remember that ;)
<abogani> ailo: Any realtime kernel (so also which are self-compiled) create a new file in proc so called (please check) /proc/loadavg_rt So if this file exist the running kernel is realtime.
<abogani> Something similar to [ -e /proc/loadavg_rt ]
<ailo> abogani: Thanks. That should take care of self compiled kernels, no matter what they are called then.
<paultag> ailo: the name, for now
<paultag> ailo: if someone can compile a kernel, they can read the docs on disabling the script
<paultag> ailo: :)
<paultag> ailo: since all this is compiled in, there's no good way to test this externally
<paultag> ailo: unless there's a flag in proc or something, but I doubt it
<tanders12> abogani: ah ok thanks. also, is it normal for the had .deb's to not install due to dependencies?
<paultag> ailo: picking up what I'm putting down?
<ailo> paultag: Sure
<paultag> awesome
<paultag> abogani: realtime != lowlatency
<paultag> I missed your lines, there
<abogani> paultag: ?
<abogani> tanders12: Because missing debs are in official Natty archives.
<paultag> abogani: the realtime patch is not the same as the lowlatency flag
<abogani> paultag: So?
<paultag> abogani: /proc/loadavg_rt does not matter for what ailo is doing ;)
<ailo> paultag: I suppose, even if there is a fix to the generic kernel, I gues it won't hurt for us to recommend the -lowlatency, but we could also make sure it doesn't notify for -rt kernels
<paultag> ailo: Yeah, I s'pose. RT has a lot of issues IMHO
<paultag> it's quite buggy and can lead to deadlock pretty darn quick
<ailo> paultag: I suppose, but then it is not by our choice, anyway.
<paultag> ailo: truth
<abogani> If ailo calls lowlatency kernel "realtime" it isn't my fault.
<paultag> abogani: I'm not accusing you of anything
<abogani> :-)
<paultag> :)
<ScottL> can someone look at this error?  http://paste.ubuntu.com/554031/
<ScottL> it's for this code:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/554033/
 * abogani is also suspecting that here there is a term misuse of "Irqs conflicts"...
<paultag> abogani: I wrote a kerenel from scratch, I know how one uses an IRQ line ;)
<paultag> ScottL: #!/bin/bash
<paultag> ScottL: you have ##!/bin/bash, so it fails to find it as a script, since the magic bits are blown
<paultag> sh *
<ailo> How about making sure -lowlatency is the default kernel? 
<paultag> ailo: we can add it as a dependency on the metapackage, in theory
<paultag> ailo: or we could just not make it default
<paultag> ailo: people might use studio for GIMP work, or video production and not need the lowlag kerenl
<paultag> kernel
<ailo> paultag: Seems like we are installing from PPA, and we haven't decided how to do that yet.
<paultag> We could just bitch on login in a passive-aggressive way
<paultag> ailo: Oh, aye. Yup.
<ailo> paultag: Seems like a good kernel for most things, though I suppose it should only be a dependency for audio-meta-packages.
<ailo> Is it totally wrong to put the PPA stuff into a meta-package installation?
<paultag> ailo: aye. I mean, it's against policy to mark something as a dependency if it's really not
<paultag> ailo: humm. Not sure
<paultag> ailo: if done right, I can't imagine that it's horrid, but perhaps frowned upon
<paultag> ailo: it would have to be part of the serving-suggestion package
<ailo> paultag: Don't you think we should consider -lowlatency a dependency for audio work? I really think it's needed, at least now.
<paultag> ailo: yes, I'd agree -- but IMHO just for the audio et
<paultag> set *
<ailo> ScottL: What do you think? Alessios PPA, and installing from it into a meta-package?
<paultag> ailo: the only way that'd be OK is if an ubuntu studio team only had upload rights to the PPA
<paultag> otherwise you're giving upload rights to someone without any
<ailo> paultag: I see
<paultag> ailo: ( someone could upload bash with hacks in it, and klobber all the machines on an overriden ppa upload )
<ailo> paultag: But if it is presented as an option during install?
<paultag> ailo: we could have a help page and suggest PPAs, but there's no way we can do that undercover
<ailo> paultag: One suggestion was to add that to the Ubuntustudio-controls.
<paultag> +1 there
<ailo> Maybe it's enough to have info on the Desktop on how to get started with audio, and let Ubuntustudio-controls handle -lowlatency install and adding user to audio group, then?
<ailo> ScottL had an idea about a script starting at first boot into the system. Maybe that is even better?
<paultag> ailo: yeah, but most people want to dig right into their system
<paultag> ailo: so they might close out and not read it, then be fuxed
<ailo> paultag: Yeah, people like to try first
<paultag> ailo: perhaps have a popup notify, and have it clickable -- when you click, open the helper
<ailo> paultag: I like that.
<paultag> awesome.
<ailo> We still don't have anyone working on the controls. falktx offered to help, but decided to do his own thing.
<paultag> humm
<tanders12> controls for what?
<ailo> I was supposed to try it, and I still can. I might need some help, though.
<paultag> ailo: is there any old code hanging around?
<paultag> ailo: I can help
<paultag> tanders12: no clue, tbh. My guess is the random crap that we all know but is not documented anywhere
<ailo> paultag: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/ubuntustudio-controls/0.4.7
<paultag> ailo: awesome, thanks
<tanders12> lol, you mean the random crap i spent the last month of my life learning?
<paultag> guess so ;)
<ailo> tanders12: Ubuntustudio-controls. The app, that used to fix firewire and set memlock and audio prio
<tanders12> k thats what i thought
<tanders12> whats the gui written in (no time to check right now)?
<paultag> ScottL: did that work?
<paultag> tanders12: my guess, knowing freetards -- gtk and python
<paultag> checking it out now to find the vcs, give me a moment
<tanders12> paultag: yeah prollly
<tanders12> not like it matters, i have no gui experience
<paultag> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls
<tanders12> might be fun to look at tho
<paultag> YES! Called it!
<tanders12> ^^
<paultag> ailo: code looks sane 
<tanders12> well i gtg. working on half a dozen things today but maybe ill take an hour and see if i can fiddle with the controls too
<paultag> tanders12: :)
<ailo> paultag: For someone experienced, doesn't seem like too much work, right?
<tanders12> paultag: lemme know if you get anywhere with it
<paultag> ailo: christ no -- should be easy enough -- code looks easy to hack out, and it uses Glade 3
<paultag> life's grand
<paultag> tanders12: sure thing
<ailo> paultag: We really don't need so much. But, maybe we need to change the program so it runs in user mode.
<ailo> paultag: So we can let the user add itself to audio group
<paultag> ailo: yeah, it would be nice to bump up with gksudo only when you need it
<ailo> We don't really need anything more than, add user to audio group, and install -lowlatency, as basic needs
<paultag> ailo: aye. It looks pretty good from my brief lookover
<ailo> Then, of course one can always add all kinds of features
<paultag> ailo: some bits could use a clean, but overall solid
<paultag> I'd work from that, no need for a rewrite or anything, which is nice
<ailo> paultag: So, you want to do that, or should I start doing something?
<paultag> ailo: why don't you wind up on it, you have a really great vision for it
<paultag> ailo: if you need help, I can help out however you need me
<paultag> ailo: I'm just here to back you up
<ailo> paultag: Ok. I suspect we have until some time in February. Should be no problem.
<paultag> yessir!
<paultag> ailo: btw, I don't think we officially met -- I'm Paul Tagliamonte :)
<paultag> I'm pretty new around these parts
<ailo> paultag: I'm Kaj Ailomaa. https://launchpad.net/~ailo.at . Musician, living in Sweden.
<paultag> http://launchpad.net/~paultag  here
<paultag> ailo: well met :)
<ailo> paultag: Nice to meet you to :)
<paultag> ailo: what do you play?
<paultag> P.S. you should totally buy the domain ailo.at
<ScottL> sorry, family woke up and belam ensued
<ScottL> ah!  thanks paultag, that's quite embarrassing actually
<paultag> ScottL: nah! not at all!
<paultag> ScottL: it's not clear unless you know the underlying crap
<ScottL> paultag, ah, but i do know enough that it should have been a single #
<ScottL> i misrepresent myself slightly, i have done programming before, in basic, fortran, pascal, AutoLISP, but these where twenty years ago
<ScottL> s/where/were
<paultag> :)
<ScottL> we promised my daughter that we would take her to see the Disney movie Tangled, so i'll be out of the house for several hours and i really wanted to work on this script more :/
<paultag> ScottL: it can wait -- family first, dude
<ScottL> however, i should be able to get it this afternoon/evening, along with some specs for the -controls
<paultag> ScottL: the little things will be the big things, man 
<paultag> :)
<paultag> ScottL: great! ttyl :)F
<paultag> :) *
 * ScottL managed to fix the '##' and start the package building with pbuilder before leaving :)
<paultag> :)
<paultag> ScottL: let me know if it still FTBFS
<paultag> or fails to install, whavever the issue was ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-15
<ScottL> ugh, paultag, i get the -settings package to install properly (at least there are no errors now), but it's not setting the default xsession
<ScottL> i ran into a few other syntax errors but fixed those and i have also played with a few other things
<ScottL> i even checked a few things on the xubuntu and une -settings to verify again what i was doing
<ScottL> if you don't have any good suggestions then i will try to find didirocks again and ask him to look over a few things and ask him a few questions
<ScottL> paultag, lastly, i have even tried running the /usr/lib/gdm/gdm-set-default-session command by hand in a terminal and it doesn't seem to work
 * ScottL is frustrated
 * holstein too
<ScottL> what are you frustrated about holstein ?
<tanders12> holstein: tried daily again and it seems to be much more stable
<holstein> tanders12: cool
<tanders12> what are the steps you wanted me to try?
<holstein> OH
<holstein> tanders12: try sudo qjackctl
<holstein> til you're sure JACK is working with your device
<holstein> then, get the -lowlatency kernel from abogani
<holstein> https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa
<holstein> try it sudo again
<holstein> then as normal user if that is working
<holstein> then add yourself to the audio group
<holstein> and run as normal user
<tanders12> paste.ubuntu.com/554252
<tanders12> and thats as root
<tanders12> it works if i uncheck realtime tho
<holstein> tanders12: which kernel?
<holstein> generic?
<holstein> uname -a
<tanders12> yeah
<holstein> OK
<tanders12> installing LL now
<holstein> i think that is to be expected 
<holstein> so far
<tanders12> oh duh
<tanders12> cgroups
<tanders12> i forgot
<ailo> tanders12: holstein: did you read the comment on the US-dev list, that firewire should work without adding user to audio group?
<holstein> ailo: sure, it'll work
<holstein> without RT
<tanders12> no
<holstein> ailo: tanders12 just did htat
<holstein> that*
<holstein> as root
<ailo> holstein: Yeah.
<holstein> i didnt think we were debating that
<holstein> but whatever
<holstein> i mean, with that email
<ailo> holstein: No, it should work as user too, if the guy was right
<holstein> OH
<holstein> tanders12: 
<holstein> before you reboot
<holstein> try jack as normal user
<tanders12> just did it not root without rt also
<holstein> with that RT box unchecked
<tanders12> ^^
<ailo> holstein: But because jack can't access realtime without audio group, better try with no realtime on jack
<holstein> ailo: thats what is expected right?
<holstein> i think we have a good bead on what is going on
<tanders12> setting my monitors up correctly crashes metacity
<ailo> holstein: It was news to me. falktx was talking about it. Firewire can be accessed without udev rules all together.
<tanders12> or whatever it is that controls the window buttons
<holstein> tanders12: i bet ;)
<holstein> its a mess in there
<holstein> in some ways
<tanders12> yah
<tanders12> time for LL :D
<holstein> tanders12: :)
<tanders12> what irc clients you guys use?
<holstein> irssi
<ailo> tanders12: I'm on xchat
<tanders12> cool
<tanders12> works as root
<tanders12> not as  user
<ailo> holstein: tanders12: No realtime on generic, so no use using realtime on jack. It would be cool to know, if firewire works in usermode without audio group and jack not using realtime
<holstein> ailo: nows the time
<holstein> tanders12: SO...
<holstein> you have not added yourself to the audio group yet right?
<ailo> Tanders12: You're testing Natty, right?
<tanders12> yeah
<holstein> fresh install :)
<tanders12> holstein: no
<holstein> tanders12: COOL
<holstein> so lets make sure we get that test in
<holstein> normal user, non-rt, and jack doesnt start tanders12 ?
<tanders12> no that works
<holstein> OK
<tanders12> if its non rt
<holstein> ailo: so that fits then
<holstein> right?
<tanders12> nice
<tanders12> works after adding to audio group
<ailo> holstein: tanders12: So adding oneself to audio group will give realtime access to both jackd and the firewire device
<tanders12> from fresh install: 1) install lowlatency 2) add to audio group 3) don
<tanders12> done**
<holstein> OK
<ailo> hostein: tanders12: But since the generic kernel can't give realtime, no use trying to make that work. -lowlatency is the only solution for now.
<holstein> and now all is good?
<tanders12> and im still getting xruns :P
<ailo> tanders12: May be there is an irq problem.
<holstein> well, thats what was up before though right?
<tanders12> yeah
<holstein> i think its graphics and FW sharing
<tanders12> prolly hw
<tanders12> but i could hope, right?
<holstein> tanders12: i thought it was worth a try
<holstein> since we needed this test anyways
<holstein> to confirm
<holstein> tanders12: thanks for doing it :)
<tanders12> np
<ailo> tanders12: Yeah, thanks.
<ailo> tanders12: You seem to want to get more involved too?
<tanders12> is there any way around the gfx sharing issue?
<tanders12> ailo: to a point
<tanders12> :)
<ailo> tanders12: abogani was saying something about it.
<holstein> ailo: you know about software irq routing?
<ailo> hosltein: I only know that rtirq will help, on a -rt kernel
<tanders12> not on lowlatency tho?
<holstein> i dont know about that really
<holstein> tanders12: i think it should
<ailo> tanders12: No
<holstein> AH
<holstein> sux
<ailo> holstein: Only together with the realtime patch, which the -lowlatency does not have. -lowlatency is essentially a generic kernel with lower latency
<holstein> tanders12: if you added abogani's PPA
<holstein> there is a -realtime in there for natty
<tanders12> ill have to try rt then...
<holstein> you could mess around while your testing anyways
<ailo> holstein: tanders12: abogani had some ideas about that, how to fix irq, and he said it was possible, but required caution
<tanders12> yeah
<holstein> not nearly as much caution on a test install though :)
<ailo> If we could ask him more about it, maybe someone could try a solution, and maybe even discuss it on lau's dev list, to get more heads on it.
<ailo> It's sad that -lowlatency has this one problem, when in all other ways it solves all problems.
<ailo> For audio users
<tanders12> wat problem?
<ailo> tanders12: IRQ. 
<ailo> tanders12: So, just to make sure :). You did boot into -lowlatency?
<tanders12> realtime package missing...
<tanders12> yeah
<tanders12> hm he removed it apparently
<ailo> tanders12: No realtime kernel for Natty, yet.
<ailo> tanders12: It's more work, and if it is deemed really needed, abogani will probably work on it.
<tanders12> k
<tanders12> ill test some more
<tanders12> LL might still be more reliable on my system than maverick
<ailo> tanders12: LL?
<ailo> tanders12: Your jack settings were default?
<tanders12> lowlatency
<tanders12> no
<tanders12> 512 no mem lock firewire
<ailo> tanders12: 512 should of course work normally. Don't know what holstein had, but it was pretty low. Im stable at 64 frames/period with pci cards.
<holstein> i got 32 to start ;)
<holstein> and run OK actually
<tanders12> 32 started
<tanders12> 1 xrun off the bat
<tanders12> still has old version of ffado-mixer
<tanders12> gonna have to build everything from source again
<tanders12> im getting quite good at that
<tanders12> ;'
<tanders12> ;)
<tanders12> wow
<tanders12> definitely MUCH better than maverick
<holstein> performance wise?
<tanders12> no xruns playing audacious at 64 so far
<holstein> i thought that too
<tanders12> installing stuff from synaptic in background too
<holstein> sounds like prgress to me
<tanders12> pumping audacious into ardour and recording w/ patchage running
<tanders12> NO xruns
<tanders12> freak yeah
<tanders12> ok got one but i didn't hear any click...
<ailo> tanders12: So, how come you got them before?
<ailo> xruns?
<ailo> tanders12: What kind of CPU do you have?
<tanders12> core duo
<tanders12> pretty sure it's cuz my firewire bus is shared with my graphics
<ailo> tanders12: Well, shouldn't it be the same all the time?
<ailo> tanders12: If in fact you are able to run firewire as low as 64 frames/period with irq sharing graphics with firewire, I don't see how there could be an irq problem
<tanders12> idk
<ailo> tanders12: So, it happened once, and now it didn't? Maybe it will happen on occasion? If it does, please let us know. I find this is the final stone to turn over about the -lowlatency kernel.
<tanders12> u mean xruns on occasion?
<ailo> tanders12: Yes. But not just one or two.
<tanders12> its always been like 1 per minute or so
<ailo> tanders12: Oh.
<tanders12> but not as many now
<ailo> tanders12: Did you try on a -realtime kernel at any point? Which distro, in that case?
<tanders12> tried natty rt on maverick
<ailo> tanders12: You mean -lowlatency
<ailo> tanders12: Lucid has linux-rt, but it's backported from Karmic
<ailo> tanders12: In Karmic you have a real -rt kernel, and the rtirq script
<holstein> i got tanders12 going with RT
<holstein> the natty one
<holstein> in maverick
<holstein> didnt help :/
<ailo> holstein: But, there's no -rt in Natty. Only -lowlatency. It's not the same thing.
<holstein> there was
<holstein> if its not there anymore
<holstein> its an older verion i think
<holstein> there was an older verion in there at least
<holstein> i got it too
<tanders12> yeah
<holstein> id have to look
<ailo> holstein: Did I miss it? Must have been a month ago, then?
<tanders12> holstein has the link
<holstein> BUT it might be the same as lucid
<holstein> ailo: probably that long ago 
<holstein> i found this link...
<holstein> http://jackschnippes.freeunix.net/index.php/2010/11/04/lowlatency-kernel-and-realtime-kernel-for-ubuntu-10-10-maverick
<holstein> just links to the .deb's from aboganis PPA
<ailo> holstein: tanders12: That -realtime kernel is for Lucid, not for Natty. You'll find it in https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa?field.series_filter=
<ailo> holstein: tanders12: If you use the filter, you'll find they are for Lucid.
<tanders12> hm
<holstein> i thought it looked familiar ;)
<holstein> i just installed it and tried it
<holstein> and didnt really check it 
<ailo> holstein: It shouldn't include the new firewire stack, I think. I mean, it should be the same stuff on it, as the Lucid kernel, except it has the realtime patch, and can be used with the rtirq script.
<tanders12> lol
<tanders12> so i was running a lucid kernel on maverick?
<holstein> yeah, you can still try what you need with it tanders12 
<ailo> tanders12: I always thought you were testing the -lowlatency
<holstein> ailo: in natty
<holstein> -lowlatency in natty right tanders12 ?
<holstein> thats what i have
<holstein> and -realtime in maverick and lucid
<ailo> holstein: tanders12: I meant before, when tanders built ffado from source..
<tanders12> i tried them all on maverick
<tanders12> best results with the lucid rt but wifi didnt work
<ailo> tanders12: Common problem with -rt, from what I understand.
<ailo> Or, -realtime in this case
<tanders12> yea
<ailo> The difference between -rt and -realtime is that -rt is Ubuntu, while -realtime is linux vanilla.
<tanders123> sick of usin that tiny netbook keyboard
<holstein> i get used to it
<holstein> the tiny keyboard
<holstein> and the other ones feel HUGE
<tanders123> well, my wrists are killin me
<tanders123> violin, guitar and tons of typing
<tanders123> not good
<holstein> typing hurts me after a while
<ailo> tanders123: So, you got firewire working, but you get a xrun every minute or so, no matter which period/buffer you use?
<holstein> playing usually helps a bit
<tanders123> ailo: it's much better with the lowlatency
<tanders123> i need to test it more
<ailo> tanders123: Still, not perfect?
<ailo> tanders123: I would want perfect.
<tanders123> but i suspect the xruns im getting now are just from opening programs, minimizing things, etc
<tanders123> yeah not perfect
<tanders123> do you never get xruns on your machine?
<ailo> tanders123: Shouldn't affect on a higher frames/period. I get no xruns at all at 64 f/p.
<tanders123> hm
<tanders123> lucky
<tanders123> :P
<tanders123> but that's pci huh
<ailo> tanders123: Yeah.
<tanders123> holstein: you said you get xruns occasionally right?
<holstein> tanders123: not really
<holstein> if i open a program *sometimes
<holstein> certain apps
<ailo> holstein: tanders123: It will happen when opening/closing programs that connect to jack.
<ailo> That is normal
<holstein> not just sitting there though
<holstein> i have seen that though
<holstein> my EEE
<holstein> if i push it too hard
<holstein> running JACK
<holstein> it'll just xrun every 20 seconds or so
<tanders123> your eee have fw?
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> i wish 
<holstein> i have an HP mininote with an expresscard slot though
<tanders123> nice
<holstein> little more hardware than the EEE
<tanders123> which eee?
<tanders123> ive got an old 701 :)
<ailo> tanders123: Do you get xruns at 512 f/p? Try adjusting periods/buffer and set it to 3 (just fishing).
<holstein> 900
<tanders123> nice
<tanders123> i should have waited lol
<ailo> Mine is 901, I think
<tanders123> but now i can tell everyone that i got the first netbook ever
<holstein> yeaH, i have to say i got the second one
<tanders123> ailo: lemme build everything then ill start testing. I can't turn on phantom power to test my mic until i get ffado-mixer working
<ailo> tanders123: I see.
<tanders123> as far as im concerned if it'll let me record a song without wiggin out that's good enough
<holstein> try setting it really modest
<holstein> 1024 or more
<holstein> 3
<holstein> you dont need low latency at all
<tanders123> what does the frames per buffer do?
<holstein> you can go too far the other way though
<holstein> tanders123: im not sure about the particualars
<ailo> tanders123: holstein: I don't know either, except I've read sometimes that it can help midi perform better. Maybe that would be good to find out...
<tanders123> hm
<ailo> http://rivendell.tryphon.org/wiki/Jack_frame,_period,_buffer_info
<tanders123> if you ever know anyone having trouble building ffado or jack, send them to me. I'm pretty much pro at it by now ;)
<holstein> tanders123: i might be asking about ffado at some point
<tanders123> its way easy
<tanders123> if you have any desire to try it i say go for it
<holstein> sometime :)
<holstein> bedtime now though... laterx
<ailo> holstein: good night
<ailo> tanders123: If you do get occasional xruns at 512 f/p, I would ask the ffado guys. Could be hardware specific.
<tanders123> cya
<tanders123> we have mixer
<ailo> tanders123: Let me know if you have xruns.
<tanders123> k
<tanders123> had a couple while starting everything up
<tanders123> it's just sitting with ardour recording output from audacious right now
<ailo> tanders123: Not connecting?
<tanders123> no it's workin
<ailo> Oh, ok
<ailo> frames/period?
<tanders123> been playing for 1.5 minutes with no xruns
<tanders123> 512/3
<tanders123> ok it had an xrun
<tanders123> but i didn't hear anything. it used to click
<tanders123> every time
<ailo> Still..
<tanders123> yup
<tanders123> nother one, didn't affect audio...
<ailo> Could be something using the same IRQ every 2 minutes
<tanders123> those 2 were close together...
<ailo> Or every 1 minute, like a crontab job
<ailo> Maybe the wireless? Is that on the same IRQ?
<tanders123> no
<tanders123> yenta, firewire, and i915
<tanders123> pretty sure yenta is the chipset driver or something like that
<tanders123> i915 is intel 945
<ailo> yenta = pcmcia ?
<tanders123> lol
<tanders123> fali
<tanders123> fail**
<tanders123> it cut out RIGHT before the end of the song
<ailo> It crashed?
<tanders123> no it threw and xrun that actually affected the sound
<ailo> ok
<tanders123> imma go back and listen to the others...
<ailo> I think the xrun is affecting it all the time, but it is by chance whether it changes the sound wave so it is audible.
<ailo> Why don't you post something about that on the ffado list? If you don't, I could. But I have no device to test.
<tanders123> interesting
<tanders123> even though i heard the last one click, when I went back and listened to the recorded version it sounded fine...
<tanders123> you think it's an ffado problem?
<ailo> So, the xrun is only affecting the firewire device, not internally.
<tanders123> maybe idk
<tanders123> it's strang
<ailo> But, if you record, it will be audible on the track too
<tanders123> no
<tanders123> that's what im saying
<tanders123> i went back and listened to the recorded track
<tanders123> not audible
<ailo> I mean from microphone, using the firewire device
<ailo> Since it passes through the device
<tanders123> maybe
<tanders123> oh
<tanders123> i gotcha, duh
<ailo> I think the ffado guys could perhaps explain why there are xruns. Maybe we can do something about it.
<tanders123> of course ardour wouldn't notice since the sound goes straight from audacious to jack to ardou
<tanders123> how do you think I should word it?
<ailo> tanders123: Maybe the firewire device is the only part of it not syncing, while the programs are having no problems.
<ailo> I guess you could explain the symptom, occasional xruns every one minute or so. Tell them what system you are on.
<ailo> Maybe put some info of your hardware, cpu, irq shared devices.
<ailo> In a way, it's a bug. But perhaps it is a linux bug? Would be nice what is causing it first.
<ailo> Would be nice to know..
<ailo> If the ffado guys don't answer, you could try the lau list too.
<tanders123> lau?
<ailo> Linux Audio Users mail list
<tanders123> this is weird. it's pretty much just as stable at 64/3
<tanders123> oh
<ailo> tanders123: Yeah, I don't think it is related to the frames/period. Must be something throwing the device off every now and then
<tanders123> yeah
<ailo> IRQ would be my first guess.
<tanders123> i would think that graphics would cause it to mess up more consistently
<ailo> The device is not getting enough priority, so something else takes over that resource
<tanders123> and you can't set priority in lowlatency, right
<ailo> Maybe, but I don't know how. Seemed like abogani had some ideas about that.
<tanders123> ok i think it's MORE stable at 64...
<tanders123> 4 minutes with 0 xruns
<ailo> tanders123: Twilight zone..
<tanders123> ah
<tanders123> im gonna up it to 1024 and 2048 and see what happens
<tanders123> it'd be nice to find SOME sort of pattern
<tanders123> maybe the buffer being to big is throwing something out of sync
<ailo> Maybe.
<tanders123> 5 min clean
<tanders123> lol spoke too soon
<tanders123> just had one
<ailo> But, it may also be that the problem is still there, just need to do something to get the system upset.
<tanders123> yeah def a problem of some sort
<tanders123> need to play with my desktop a little more and see what I can do there. i have an NEC firewire card in it and the motherboard lets you manually set all the irq stuff
<ailo> tanders123: I would guess you will have no problems with the Desktop in that case. holstein didn't seem to have any problems. 
<tanders123> we'll see
<tanders123> btw i got arch runnin
<tanders123> k sent out the email to ffado-user
<tanders123> basically just gave them my ffado-diag
<ailo> looks good.
<tanders123> so where does your interest in the firewire stuff come from, seeing as you don't have a device?
<ailo> I just took it as a part of my duties as a tester to make sure everything has been tested.
<ailo> I'm also looking to buy a device in the future, so I might just as well help making sure it works.
<ailo> Firewire seems to be the toughest device to get working. Usually everything else works smoothly. 
<ailo> Also, I'm helping with the Ubuntustudio-controls, which are meant to assist in that area, if it is able to do that.
<tanders123> ah ok
<tanders123> what sort of device you wanna get? just a basic interface?
<ailo> I need at least 12 channels, so either one that has an adat interface to expand the number of channels, or daisy-chaining 8+8 channels.
<ailo> Focusrite seems the most promising, and price worthy.
<tanders123> no daisychaining with juju currently
<tanders123> iirc
<ailo> I heard they were fixing that. Don't know if it is already done.
<tanders123> i was gonna get a saffire pro 24 but then a guy on ffado-user offered me his used af4 and sold it to me for 160, so i couldn't pass it up
<ailo> audiofire seems like a good deal too. Depending on the needs. I would like mic amps on all channels, to get rid of the external mixer.
<ailo> Right now I have two m-audio delta cards synced. Works like a dream, but I'm stuck with a desktop. Would be better to have a laptop.
<tanders123> dont be so sure...
<tanders123> :D
<ailo> I feel like we are spamming this channel a bit. Would be good to have a ubuntustudio-testing channel
<tanders123> hm maybe
<tanders123> but it's not used much, so for the time being i wouldn't worry about it
<ailo> Well, I think the guys will read up on what has been said, and 1000 lines of testing is not what they are after..
<ailo> tanders123: By the way, just for the sake of it. In usermode, without realtime on the generic kernel. How bad was the performance?
<tanders123> lol maybe ure right
<tanders123> idk
<ailo> tanders123: Just trying with builtin card. But on -lowlatency. 128 f/p seems to be no problem withou realtime
<tanders123> didnt try to run anything
<tanders123> ***yawn
<tanders123> bedtime bro
<ailo> Nope 128 was no good for me..
<tanders123> hm
<tanders123> well have a good one
<ailo> tanders123: Yeah. See you around
<ScottL> ailo, holstein, paultag :  interesting bug filed about ubuntustudio-controls and new firewire stack - https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/703199
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 703199 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "The role of UbuntuStudio Control may end in Natty." [Undecided,New]
<ailo> ScottL: Maybe we should let him know that app is outdated and will be replaced.
<ScottL> would you mind posting something on the bug
<ailo> Sure
<ScottL> ailo, also see if you can set it to "confirmed"
<ailo> ok
<ScottL> TheMuso, if you have five minutes to talk about the gnome-classic xsession bug i would appreciate it, i'm very stuck at the moment and need a push in the right direction
<holstein> thats not an entirely false statement
<holstein> The role of UbuntuStudio Control may end in Natty
<holstein> thats why its being re-vamped
<holstein> would be nice if some folk would use IRC
<ailo> holstein: I suppose we haven't decided yet what to do with US-controls. I have decided to write one from scratch, using python, adding only what is absolutely needed to get US running with realtime audio.
<ailo> falktx: when do you think your controls will be ready? Within a month?
<ailo> I'm also working on the notify script, which will let the user know of any problems when logging into the system.
<ailo> falktx has an app underway, which could perhaps replace -controls.
<falktx_> hey ailo, I already started coding it
<falktx_> for now it starts the gui, show jack-stats and has a systray
<falktx_> other GUI stuff is there, but doesnt do anything yet
<ailo> falktx: So, it is meant to replace qjackctl and add some other features too?
<falktx_> ailo: not just qjackctl, but patchage too
<ailo> holstein: Did you ever try starting firewire, -generic kernel, jack without rt?
<ailo> And no audio group
<holstein> ailo: i dont think so
<holstein> im surprised that checkbox does anything
<holstein> i thought that was irrelevant
<ailo> holstein: I think unchecking it adds a flag.
<ailo> holstein: My little wiki page doesn't seem to be correct in the light of things. If firewire works without audio group, when not in rt, I guess I should mention that.
<holstein> i thought it was changed though
<holstein> and it didnt matter anymore
<holstein> ailo: yeah, in theory
<holstein> you can start JACK with US out of the box
<holstein> which is different than what i thought at first
<ailo> jack in itself doesn't seem to worry if one has access to realtime or not, it will start anyway, but the firewire driver doesn't seem to like that.
<holstein> "as long as you dont actually need to use JACK, JACK can be started by..." ;)
<ailo> holstein: So, the udev rules, I'm wondering if they are only to give firewire access to realtime.
<holstein> we probably need another tast then
<holstein> no audio group, with RT checked, with udev
<ailo> holstein: If you could confirm on the theory, that: no audio group, no realtime, does firewire work with jack
<ailo> I will change my page, if that is true
<holstein> well, tanders12 said that worked right?
<holstein> i can do it
<holstein> im just not sure i trust reverting the groups change
<holstein> BUT i'll try it
<ailo> As long as you log out after doing the change
<ailo> And you could even try it on the -lowlatency, as long as you don't use realtime. If you want to be extra sure, run jackd --no-realtime from the terminal.
<holstein> i like that
<holstein> i'll ping you when im doing it
<ailo> holstein: Great.
<holstein> so you can help me make sure im remembering everything :)
<ailo> holstein: I hardly remember what we said yesterday :)
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> yeah, but between the 2 of us, maybe we can keep it straight
<ailo> let's hope so
<ailo> abogani gave me the clue earlier to use zenity. It seems we can solve the whole problem using only that within a script.
<falktx> hey, I want to ask something
<falktx> how do you guys know which packages does ubuntu needs as base ?
<falktx> like ubuntustudio-desktop depends on many small apps (acpid, etc)
<falktx> is it copied from ubuntu or ...?
<holstein> falktx: 
<holstein> http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/ubuntustudio-desktop
<holstein> let me see if lucid is up
<holstein> hey
<holstein> http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/ubuntustudio-desktop
<holstein> :)
<falktx> err, I got distracted
<falktx> holstein: my question is, where did we get those packages names ?
<falktx> where do they came from?
<falktx> holstein: i want to make kxstudio-desktop-base, but not sure which packages to use
<holstein> falktx: i think its up to you to decide that
<holstein> what is in the meta-packages
<falktx> well, for example, 'anacron'
<falktx> why does ubuntustudio has that ?
<holstein> who knows
<holstein> theres a bunch of things that are probably just old
<holstein> pre-hardy even
<falktx> arrg... I'll have to do this blindly then
<ScottL> falktx, i think they started with a vanilla ubuntu base and then replaced the parts they wanted to with the ubuntustudio-base 
<falktx> ScottL: 'they' ?
<holstein> lol
<holstein> you know how 'they' are ;)
<ailo> falktx: ScottL: I get the feeling some dependencies are outdated
<ScottL> falktx, 'they' being all the old guard, who still may or may not hang around anymore but who helped build ubuntu studio
<ScottL> falktx, look at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natty/files
<ScottL> specifically look at the desktop file
<ScottL> ailo,  which dependencies?
 * falktx bookmarks the page for later
<ailo> ScottL: I don't know how I could check, but isn't HAL not needed anymore?
<ailo> ScottL: Or are the dependencies just a sum of other applications dependencies?
<ScottL> to help explain a little for everyone: those link above is to the "seeds" which are then "germinated"
<ScottL> you tell the buildd system what you *want*, i.e. i want ardour, and it figures out all the dependencies for it, i.e. jackd, etc
<ScottL> the figuring out the dependencies are the 'germinating' part as i understand it
<ScottL> this is also a really good link:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/
<ScottL> it contains all the log files for the ubuntu studio builds
<ScottL> ailo, it would appear that indeed HAL is included in the ubuntu studio image:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/natty/daily-20110115.log
<ailo> ScottL: I've finished the script that will let you finish Ubuntustudio configuration. I use zenity to add a notification-tray item.
<ailo> So far, I've left out the "actions", so noone needs to install anything.
<ailo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/554419/
<falktx> your kernel sucks ?
<ailo> I give paultag creadit for that one
<holstein> maybe "your kernel is not appropriate for real-time"
<holstein> "why does my kernel suck?"
<holstein> "it came with ubuntu?"
<holstein> "does ubuntu suck?"
<ailo> The script can be used both as the finishing touch of a package installation, and as a login auto-script.
<TheMuso> ScottL: I will once I get back home. Don't really have time to look at it prior to flying out of the US tonight.
<ScottL> TheMuso, oh, didn't know you were in the US currently, but thank you :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, i don't suppose you were close to Texas?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Dallas in fact.
<TheMuso> Still here, waiting to meet up with someone at the hotel to go to the airport later.
<TheMuso> Were here for he Natty sprint.
<ScottL> TheMuso, aw, i'm probably less than three hours away and had the week off as vacation, had i known i could have come up for an afternoon to meet you :(
<TheMuso> ScottL: Thats unfrotunate. I was rather busy as it was, so I may not have been able to make time, but too late to wonder about that now.
<TheMuso> unfortunate
<ScottL> TheMuso, true
<ScottL> TheMuso, but i hope to make either the next UDS (presumably in Europe) or the follow UDS (again, presumably in the US), we can meet most likely at one of those
<TheMuso> Cool.
<ailo> There was a couple of errors in the last script. This one might work a little better http://paste.ubuntu.com/554449/
<ScottL> TheMuso, how many hours hence do you think you will be ready?  not to hold you to a particular time, but just so i have a time frame
<TheMuso> ScottL: Some time next week at least.
<ailo> So, ScottL, what do you think about my latest idea for the script. At first I thought to update -controls (which we still can do, of course), but this script could already do the base configuration for audio.
<ailo> ScottL: It needs a great deal of more work, but if you try it, I'm sure you get the idea
<ailo> ScottL: And if you do try it, make sure you are not in the audio group, or that you are on the -generic kernel.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-16
<ScottL> ailo, later this week i will probably try it, but the time that i have available i'm still trying to suss out the gnome-classic xsession problem
<ailo> ScottL: No problem. You seem to have a lot on your hands. 
<ailo> So, what is not working for you ScottL? No one else can help you?
<ScottL> ailo, after a ubuntustudio install from the image (not "upgrading" from vanilla ubuntu) the default xsession is unity, which does not work
<ScottL> ailo, i had found a mechanism to set gnome-classic (not unity) as default and keep it as default
<ScottL> but i haven't been able to get it to work, but i am currently testing it against a vanilla install "upgraded" with ubuntustudio packages
<ScottL> and i think this is part of the problem because it includes the unity packages
<ailo> ScottL: I noticed Ubuntu-Desktop is to be uninstalled now. It won't now, but I suppose it will later. I guess something is not ready, but maybe that does not affect your work?
<ScottL> so i'm going test this in xubuntu, which does not include any unity packages, to see the mechanism at work
<ailo> Maybe the mechanism is outdated?
<ScottL> ailo, where did you notice that Ubuntu-Desktop is to be uninstalled?
<ailo> Update-manager
<ScottL> ailo, no, this is currently what xubuntu, edubuntu, and UNE are using...i got it from didirock who helped them set it up
<ailo> It can't perform partial upgrade, because Ubuntu-Desktop is to be uninstalled, but is blacklisted against that
<ScottL> ailo, i even checked their code today in launchpad
<ailo> Perhaps on Monday, when people come back to work
<ScottL> ailo, ah, i understand now about Ubuntu-Desktop
<ScottL> ailo, i heard that they are also switching some unity parts around, something about 3d vs 2d perhaps?, and this might be part of it *shrug* not sure though
<ScottL> ailo, yes, i'm hoping didirocks will be available on monday, but i would like to have some experience with xubuntu and see that it work because
<ailo> Unity seems far from finished. Since it's a Ubuntu project you can really see it growing during the process.
<ScottL> i can't even get the commands to work for me using CLI without all the if-then logic
<ScottL> so if it is working in xubuntu but not for me from a vanilla ubuntu install then it probably has something to do with my install choice
<ScottL> i might even try to install the ubuntustudio-* meta packages and then rebuild -settings to see if it works
<ailo> If you say so :)
<ScottL> !version
<ubottu> To find out what version of Ubuntu you have, type Â« lsb_release -a Â» in a !shell - To know the available version of a package, Â« apt-cache policy <package> Â»
<paultag> hey, sorry I was away, I went skiing :)
<paultag> ScottL: did your package get sorted?
<paultag> ailo: How's the script?
<ailo> paultag: I continued to work on it as a startupt script, using zenity and zend-notifu
<paultag> ailo: great!!
<ailo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/554449/
<ailo> It need some work, of course and I had some problems putting in the actual "actions"
<paultag> ailo: it looks great so far, we just need to make sure it will run headless :)
<ailo> gksudo -A "command" would give me a popup
<paultag> ailo: I see a few issues right off - the sudo calls need to change to gksudo :)
<paultag> ah
<ailo> But it will only work like this, if it's run int the terminal
<paultag> ailo: it's an issue for people who have sudo prompt on every command :(
<paultag> I've set a machine up like that before, I was security nuts for a while
<ailo> :)
<paultag> ailo: all in all, kickass work so far
<paultag> that shows a ton of man-hours so far
<ailo> So, I need to check some conditions first, and then run the commands as a list of variables
<paultag> :)
<ailo> I will need to add some kind of progress window too, but it seems zenity covers most of it
<ailo> I was about to start learning how to code python gtk apps, but abogani had already tipped me about zenity, only it took me a while to realize how much you could to with it
<ailo> Really saves some time
<paultag> :)
<paultag> zenity rocks
<ScottL> paultag, skiing sounds awesome, but i can't get my end to work, even running the command in CLI didn't set the default xsession to gnome :(
<ScottL> paultag, i'm hoping to talk to didirocks tomorrow and see if he can point me in a better direction
<paultag> sure
<ScottL> paultag, also i talked to the.muso yesterday about possibly helping me find the right direction, hopefully i find the answer before then but he'll be a failsafe for me if everything else falls through
<paultag> BRB
<ScottL> paultag, i talked yesterday also the a few people with xubuntu because i was questioning if it commands i got from didirocks actually worked since i was having trouble with them
<ScottL> it appears like they stuff works, but they have a file (session.sh) that we dont' have start also run startxfce
<paultag> ScottL: no need, you can use /etc/xdg/autostart to run that stuff
<paultag> ScottL: post-boot stuff, right?
<paultag> erm, login *
<ScottL> charlie-tca thought my problems might even arise because i was starting with vanilla ubuntu
<ScottL> paultag,  i'm not sure if it's post boot or not
<ScottL> paultag, if you are installing from the ISO it should behave different, i believe, then if you install the ubuntustudio-default-settings package
<ScottL> ontop of ubuntu
<ScottL> in the later i expect it to be post-boot
<paultag> ScottL: I'll check it out when I get back to Ohio -- I'm in way flux right now -- is there a bug you can hit me on?
<ScottL> uno momento, por favor
<paultag> sure sure
<ScottL> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-default-settings/+bug/702712
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 702712 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "set gnome-classic xsession as default in natty" [Undecided,New]
<paultag> ScottL: thanks, dude. I'll get on that as soon as I can. Poke the bug if I don't get back to you -- I have a nasty habbit of forgetting
<ScottL> paultag, oh sure, i've also been poking around on #ubuntu-kernel to see if i can find out why the ubuntustudio kernel from the ISO keeps panicking during installation
<ScottL> or at least see if it's happening to others on the alternate still ( i believe it still is)
<ScottL> because i would really, really like to try to fix the xsessions bug in an actual ubuntustudio install :|
<paultag> ScottL: :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-09
<astraljava> What, no meeting?
<ScottL> astraljava, sorry, it's my fault, got busy with family
<ScottL> but i'm catching up on my email, etc for ubuntu studio now
<ScottL> falktx, do you think you can help port gcdmaster to gtk3 or similar?
<falktx> ScottL: hey there
<falktx> ScottL: sorry my gtk knowledge is kinda 1%
<falktx> plus I don't really like gtk...
<falktx> ScottL: you know I'm a Qt guy
<astraljava> Ok, if my temp lay-offs realize, I'll have lots of time to look into that one, then.
<ScottL> astraljava, if you can make the changes to gcdmaster, that would be great :)
<ScottL> if not maybe we can see if falktx will get it ported to qt then if possible
<ScottL> i wonder if this can be patched and put back into the repos for this cycle
<astraljava> ScottL: We'll see. I'll try to start working on it later into this week.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-10
<scott-work> good morning
<astraljava> o/
<scott-work> i have a question for the channel, probably will shoot it to the mailing list too
<scott-work> how do people feel about ubuntu studio being officially recognized as an LTS release for 12.04
<scott-work> ?
<astraljava> Yes, we can do that. I was thinking about the same when Xubuntu had their discussion and proposal accepted just this week.
<scott-work> astraljava: one of my questions is...do we need to?
<astraljava> No, we don't need to.
<scott-work> canonical will already be supporting the foundation packages already for ubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu/et al
<scott-work> i suppose for appearances it would be nice though....and respect
<astraljava> Derivates can choose to, or not to.
<scott-work> i don't think we can honestly expect LTS support for particular a/v/g packages though
<astraljava> That's the thing, we should be ready and willing to provide that support.
<scott-work> right
<scott-work> i am leaning to asking for LTS designation for ubuntu studio, unless others are oppossed to it
<scott-work> given the way libraries change and the development of things like ardour (and maybe jack) there is an upper boundry condition to our LTS support for a/v/g packages within two years, much less four or five though
<scott-work> astraljava: ^^^
<astraljava> We could vote for it, if we got decent amount of contributors in one of our formal meetings. That would probably have to happen in the next January meeting, though.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-11
<micahg> ubuntu-qa looking for US input in #ubuntu-meeting
<astraljava> Thanks micahg for the heads up!
<micahg> no problem :)
<astraljava> I wonder who, if anyone, from us is noted as a contact person regarding this.
<astraljava> Better read up on that.
<charlie-tca> Who does the testing for milestones?
<charlie-tca> well, maybe that wasn't such a good question after all
<astraljava> Whoever has time, but unfortunately too often it's about who has interest.
<astraljava> ScottL did mentioned around the time when Alpha-1 was to be released, that we wouldn't take part in that.
<astraljava> I'll try to get involved with this more, as Scott just can't handle it all, as capable as he is. :)
<charlie-tca> I do some of it, too, when I can
<astraljava> Thanks for that!
<astraljava> I subscribed to the Meetings page for QA team, so I'll get notified for the meeting schedules.
<charlie-tca> We just do what we can
<astraljava> True.
<astraljava> Hey how does one manage fridge calendars? Our meetings are incorrect at the moment.
<holstein> astraljava: i have it added to my calendar
<holstein> thats how it works
<holstein> what do we need?
<holstein> is the time we need open?
<holstein> are we using *-meeting?
<charlie-tca> I do it by emailing the news team mailing list 
<astraljava> holstein: Yeah  I'm looking at that now. We switched to bi-weekly formal meetings, and yes, on #ubuntu-meeting.
<holstein> astraljava: i dont mind editing
<charlie-tca> I send to ubuntu-news <ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com> 
<astraljava> holstein: Great, if you could that would be awesome, so that fridge gets corrected.
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Good to know, thanks! I'll keep that in mind if something happens to Mike's calendar.
<charlie-tca> Had too many items that people scheduled, then they disappear and no one else can change it
<holstein> i dont remember how formal that invitation was... not sure if amber graner hooked me up, or if i just got on there
<astraljava> Well it's enough if it is there, but I'll save Charlie's method just in case.
<astraljava> holstein: Next up is 22nd of January.
<astraljava> Can you make the change soon?
<astraljava> I think I mentioned this on the mailing list, too.
<holstein> astraljava: so, whats the deal?
<holstein> is that a change?
<holstein> no more on the first sundays?
<holstein> you want my to ditch that?
<holstein> or just add this one?
<holstein> same time?
<holstein> 1pm EST is what i have
<astraljava> holstein: Yeah, we re-scheduled back in December already, I think. Or even November. :D
<holstein> lol
<astraljava> Bi-weekly, starting from 22nd, at 1700 UTC, on #ubuntu-meeting.
<holstein> ok... every other week then?
<holstein> next one on the 22
<astraljava> Yes.
<holstein> then on 5th
<astraljava> Yep. Every other week is informal on our own channel.-
<holstein> astraljava: i'll let you know when i have something to look at
<holstein> let me check the fridge and seee if there are conflicts
<holstein> i'll want someone to confirm the TZ's too
<holstein> i always screw that up
<astraljava> No conflicts, Sundays are pretty free.
<holstein> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
<holstein> ^^ take a look and make sure the TZ look right and all that
<holstein> astraljava: ^ when you get a minute
<astraljava> holstein: Looks good. This is nitpicking, but can you change the title to Ubuntu Studio contributors? I know it doesn't really matter, but it would look better. :)
 * holstein checking
<astraljava> I mean not all caps, just the initial chars, as the derivate name suggests.
<holstein> astraljava: i think its updated
<holstein> might need control+F5... let me know
<astraljava> Yep, it updated. Thanks a bunch!
<holstein> :)
<holstein> astraljava: im just glad to do something useful 
<astraljava> Only problem is that the calendar switches to DST your time.
<holstein> astraljava: i noticed that
<astraljava> It'll become 4 pm. in March.
<holstein> astraljava: lets roll with it for now
<astraljava> Oh ok.
<astraljava> Yeah we can work it out when the time comes.
<holstein> i can always change it then, or whatever
<astraljava> Thanks again!
<astraljava> At least I could mark it as GMT when copying to my own Google cal, so I'll be in time always. :D Nevermind if I am there late or early, as long as _I'm_ correct.
<holstein> i'll try and remember to ask amber next time i see her
<holstein> might just be a limitation to the Gcal system
 * holstein looking for TZ options..
<holstein> i dont see a way to set it to UTC or GMT or whatever
<holstein> just the US ones
<holstein> whatev's
<astraljava> It might be due to your personal calendar settings. I forget, it's been a while I tweaked that.
<holstein> astraljava: we got a while :)
<charlie-tca> You can go to calendar preferences, and add a time zone in google calendar
 * holstein looking... 
<charlie-tca> Then you have to find the place to tell it to show all time zones
<holstein> lemme see if it worked... thanks charlie-tca :)
<holstein> cool
<holstein> looks good to me
<holstein> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
<holstein> ^^ double check?
<charlie-tca> You are welcome. Seems I know less and less these days
<holstein> charlie-tca: hehe... i think you are doing great!
<astraljava> Yes indeed. Charlie's an overflowing source of wisdom. At least my hat's off to you, sir!
<astraljava> holstein: Yep, looks alright to me. Thanks, the both of you!
<astraljava> I've been wanting to get this project going better for a long while now. It's the little things like this, the tiny steps, that take it off.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-12
<ScottL> ho crap, i completely missed these conversations at work
<ScottL> thanks astraljava, holstein , and charlie for working together to get the meeting setup on launchpad
<ScottL> astraljava, did you go to #ubuntu-meeting and talk with QA?
<astraljava> ScottL: I'm supposed to sleep already, but yeah, I did. Just said we haven't really done much testing recently. Told I'd try to keep better eye on things, and try to communicate better with the QA team.
<ScottL> argh, i'm having trouble getting the -default-settings package to build
<ScottL> aparently the makefile is creating a /debian/ubuntustudio-default-settings/etc directly instead of /debian/tmp/etc
<ScottL> i also build the xubuntu-default-settings and saw that it built /debian/tmp/etc correctly and will try tomorrow to figure out why it's different
<ScottL> i'm comparing the xubuntu package against the ubuntu studio since i'm basically rebasing on the xubuntu stuff
<astraljava> ScottL: If you can push that, I could also take a look.
<ailo> Is lowlatency being included this time around?
<ailo> In the main repo, that is
 * holstein ^5's ailo !
<ailo> What's up holstein?
<holstein> not much at all
<holstein> busy, which is good
<holstein> i had a couple days off... enough time to get sick :/
<holstein> but im feeling beter
<holstein> better*
<ailo> I just recovered from a flu myself
<ailo> Get it once a year
<ailo> Busy is good
<ailo> holstein, No idea about what's happening with getting lowlatency into the main repo?
<holstein> having the flu makes one appreciate *not* having the flu ;)
<holstein> ailo: im not sure
<ailo> Seemed like the guy who took initiative on leading tests for the kernel backed out
<ailo> Steve Conklin. Lack of time, I'm sure
<ailo> But who's going to father it in?
<ailo> Who's going to mentor it and get it uploaded into the repo?
<holstein> ailo: these are great questions!
<ailo> Such a shame if it doesn't happen
<ailo> holstein, You're still on Lucid with your production machine, right?
<holstein> ailo: yup
<ailo> My favorite quote right now is "Yeah, but can he play smoke on the water"
<ailo> Somebody commented on Yngwie Malmsteen. 
<holstein> lol
<holstein> thats what they say about me, kind of
<ailo> haha
<holstein> "yeah, but can he play 'smoke on the water'"
<holstein> its in all the papers
<holstein> the interesting thing is, if i played 'smoke on the water', it would totally be more lucrative ;)
<holstein> as a friend once said, "theres no accounting for taste"
<ailo> People like to say about some commercial styles of music, that it isn't hard to make it
<ailo> And they are often right
<ailo> But, music is not hard to make
<ailo> It's a matter of choice, and character
<ailo> You do what you do
<ailo> Money is a welcome effect
<holstein> yup
<holstein> doing what folks already know makes it arguably easier though
<ailo> Sure. Everything is standardized, and you don't have to spend as much energy to get everything working
<scott-work> astraljava: i'm going to dig through it some tonight but if i can't get it i'll push it to bzr for you to look at
<scott-work> thanks for offering
<scott-work> ailo: i need to package the lowlatency kernel for REVU, aboganni has it ready
<scott-work> ailo: themuso committed to getting it reviewed, so we still need one more person
<scott-work> which i think we have the momentum and publicity to get it done :)
<ailo> Sounds great
<holstein> scott-work: i'll do that
<holstein> let me know
<holstein> we need that kernel
<holstein> i can start later today if needed
<holstein> anyways.. gottta run!
<ailo> scott-work, The second reviewer must be a MOTU or Ubuntu dev, right?
<micahg> no, MOTU or core-dev
<micahg> well, anyone can review, only those 2 can ACK for upload though
<ailo> If anyone can do it, then any one of us could help with that then
<ailo> scott-work, How's the roadmap coming along? Sorry I couldn't be of much help for this and the last release
<scott-work> ailo: we have plans for this cycle.....
<scott-work> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
<scott-work> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
<scott-work> i'm still working on a long plan, but first i need to get through some stuff for this cycle
<scott-work> micahg: i tried to build the packages last night, all worked but the last and i'm working trhough it
<scott-work> micahg: if i can't figure it out tonight then astraljava offered to look at it as well
<ailo> scott-work, Great overview
<ailo> Should help a lot
<scott-work> ailo: i hope so, but i think shnatsel deserves most of the credit for pushing the use of blueprints
<scott-work> my goal is to get the theme-ui changes pushed before this weekend to bzr
<scott-work> then i do a personal sprint on the website this weekend because rt@ubuntu is making noise about moving it to a staging area now (yay!)
<ailo> scott-work, You get easier access that way?
<scott-work> then i'll start again on the seeds and ubiquity, which colin watson is waiting on me for information
<scott-work> ailo: i have access to the current website now, knome is hosting a development site currently for us which will be moved to the staging area
<scott-work> and at some point i need to see about getting the -lowlatency kernel packaged and pushing into REVU
<ailo> It just has to happen
<ailo> It would really make things brighter for audio in Ubuntu land
<scott-work> i will do the kernel then after i get the website push done and before the seeds/ubiquity
<ailo> I haven't tried Ubuntu Studio yet, but it seems you are integrating pa with jack now
<scott-work> although i had wanted the seeds/live-dvd ready for A2 *shrug*  the lowlatency kernel is more important
<scott-work> ailo: aye, part of that is built on work that david henningsonn (sp?) has done and a talk i had with him at uds to understand it ;)
<ailo> scott-work, Any addititions for studio specific settings that matters? I've yet not tested cpu governor effects fully
<ailo> Still no controls application :/. Such things would be great to include there
<ailo> It would have been the perfect time to have one ready. Unfortunately, I did not have the time at all this time around
<scott-work> ailo: no, not at this point, i'm just focusing on getting the foundations functional and acceptable
<scott-work> i.e. lowlatency, good solid package choices, friendly and current theme-ui
<ailo> Yea, solid and simple is the way to go
<shnatsel> scott-work: pushing use of blueprints? I've just dropped the idea :)
<astraljava> Dropped the idea? Why? It's a good thing, at least in my opinion, and seems like Scott's, too.
<scott-work> astraljava: i think he meant that he just "mentioned" the idea to me rather than "pushed" the idea
<astraljava> Ahh... but of course. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-13
<ScottL> astraljava, okay, i couldn't get ubuntustudio-default-settings to play nice and i've pushed to bzr branch
<ScottL> i was using prevu to test build the package
<ScottL> i can tell that when it runs the makefile that it's crapping out because it's trying to copy to a directory that doesn't exist
<ScottL> for some reason it's replace 'ubuntustudio-default-settings' for 'tmp' :(
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> i spent three hours playing with it tonight to try to get it to work
<ScottL> i even started with the original xubuntu-default-settings, built it, made incremental changes, and then re-test built it again
<astraljava> ScottL: Ok. I'll play with it tonight.
<abogani> scott-work:, ScottL : ping
<scott-work> hi abogani :)
<abogani> scott-work: Hi Scott! :-)
<abogani> scott-work: FYI
<abogani> alessio@critter:~/WIP/ll$ grep Maintainer linux-lowlatency_3.2.0-8.15~ppa1.dsc
<abogani> Maintainer: Scott Lavender <slavender@ubuntu.com>, Alessio Igor Bogani <abogani@ubuntu.com>
<abogani> I have just uploaded in the usual place (my lowlatency ppa).
<scott-work> abogani: oh THANK YOU!
<scott-work> is this a form that i can upload it to REVU?
 * scott-work expects it is but wants to make sure
<abogani> scott-work: You should remove ~ppa1 from debian.lowlatency/changelog file first.
<abogani> the you can push it to REVU.
<abogani> *then
<scott-work> aye, thanks :)
<scott-work> i will upload to REVU within the next three to four days then
<scott-work> the lowlatency kernel, that is
<scott-work> TheMuso: ^^^
<charlie-tca> scott-work: at least your update was better than mine :)
<scott-work> lol, charlie-tca 
<scott-work> i'm just getting back into it now
<charlie-tca> me too
<scott-work> charlie-tca: how are you doing?  i haven't talked to you in a while
<charlie-tca> Took a long time to get any energy back after traveling in October/November
<charlie-tca> But, I think I am doing okay now
<scott-work> work got crazy for me mid- to late- december and then traveling a bit and getting over some sinus issues really drained me and took away from studio work
<scott-work> mid- to late- december is expect to be crazy though with people taking vacation off and the work still needs to get out though
<scott-work> i'm glad colin put a deadline on the seeds/livedvd business because that will focus me to make sure this gets done
<scott-work> (if i don't forget it amongst all the other things swirling around)
<ScottL> astraljava, when do you think you will look at the ubuntustudio-default-settings package?
<holstein> ScottL: you could ask falktx to look
<holstein> assuming he has time...
<holstein> i think he is willing to contribute, and may feel a little under-utilized
<ScottL> holstein, that is a GREAT idea !
<ScottL> oh, now i have to wait until he comes back on
<knome> :)
<ScottL> oh wait, he's here
<ScottL> falktx_, i'm here now
<falktx_> oh
<falktx_> hehe
<ScottL> can you help me understand why something isn't working well?
<ScottL> hold on, let me go upstairs and grab some code
<falktx_> ok
<scott-upstairs> falktx_, this is the code:  bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<falktx_> haha, you're really upstairs...
<scott-upstairs> i'm working on getting the output
<scott-upstairs> heh, yeah :)
<scott-upstairs> i'm a pretty literal guy :P
<scott-upstairs> here the pastebin:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/803578/
<falktx_> hm, need to install bzr again...
<scott-upstairs> so basically i'm stealing what xubuntu has for default-settings and stripping some things out and using it to replace our current -default-settings
<scott-upstairs> their package builds great!
<scott-upstairs> mine doesn't
 * knome is still lurking
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: all debian/*.files don't use paths started with debian/tmp
<scott-upstairs> where it is having an error, it should be copied things into /debian/temp
<falktx_> you can use either:
<scott-upstairs> falktx_, but the weird thing is that it works for xubuntu but not for me
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: you're probably missing something
<knome> yeah. the xubuntu black magic.
<knome> also called correct debian packaging
<knome> ;)
<scott-upstairs> well, last night i started with their package and very methodically changed out parts or replaced words
<scott-upstairs> and it worked until i did a complete replacement of the changelog and control files
<scott-upstairs> anyways, i just want to fix it so we can start building useful testing images for the xfce theme and ui
<scott-upstairs> afk a minute
<scott-upstairs> i'm back
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: package builds correctly, you're just missing some build depends (I think)
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: do you have a link to the original xubuntu debian/control file?
<scott-upstairs> just a sec
<scott-upstairs> http://paste.ubuntu.com/803578/
<scott-upstairs> wait, that's not right
<scott-upstairs> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/xubuntu-default-settings/precise/files
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: you're missing all the debian/xubuntu-default-settings* files
<falktx_> (ie, US ported)
<scott-upstairs> wait, wait...i might have done the wrong directory :(
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: yeah, I don't think I have the correct source here...
<scott-upstairs> falktx_, yeah, i didn't upload the correct directory :/
<scott-upstairs> argghh
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-14
<scott-upstairs> okay, udded, committed, and pushing now
<falktx_> let me know when ready
<scott-upstairs> errrr, having to merge
<scott-upstairs> merged and pushing
<scott-upstairs> falktx_, done
<scott-upstairs> falktx_, did you see that i'm done uploading?
<falktx_> oh, sorry
<falktx_> arrg
<ScottL> going out to dinner with family be back in an hour or so
<falktx_> ScottL: ah, got the issue
<falktx_> ScottL: when a debian package has provides 1 package, the default install path is debian/package-name
<falktx_> if a debian source provides 2 or more packages, it defaults install to debian/tmp
<falktx_> this is the difference
<falktx_> xubuntu source provides 2 packages, US provides one
 * falktx_ makes a fix
<falktx_> ScottL: scott-upstairs: fixed!
<falktx_> on debian/*.install change 'debian/tmp/etc' to etc
<falktx_> next line becomes just 'usr' like the previous one
<falktx_> and debian/control, line 4, ":" seems invalid?
<falktx_> ScottL: scott-upstairs: package builds correctly now
<ScottL> outstanding, falktx_ !  thank you :)
<ScottL> falktx_, i'll dig through other development that is still left that you can help with if you are interested
<falktx_> ScottL: sure, I will appreciatte
<astraljava> ScottL: I can start in a few monutes.
<astraljava> Ahh, I see it's fixed already.
<len> General question... I have found another bug, but I am not sure who to send it to.
<len> Firefox has a problem, but the one we have has been changed to work with ubuntu.
<astraljava> len: We're relying on Xubuntu there. Wanna head on to #xubuntu-devel to talk it over?
<len> Would those changes have affected the way javascript works?
<astraljava> Not a web dev, really, so can't tell.
<len> There is a site I use where firefox displays things wrong. I am thinking it is a firefox bug...
<micahg> len: you have a bug #?
<len> Not yet, I wanted to make sure I put it in the right place first.
<micahg> what's the bug?
<astraljava> It can be easily changed if a triager finds a better place for it.
<len> There is a site that changes the time stamp on messages in the forum to be local to the viewer. All the other browsers do this correctly but firefox seems to be looking at the wrong part of the fields.
<len> I don't know how this affects other things or what they are using exactly as java script is not my strong thing.
<len> But they call a java subruotine with the date/time at the server and it is supposed to return the date/time as local to the viewer.
<len> opera, koqueror etc. all do this correctly.
<micahg> not sure about that, is the site public
<len> Yes. It is permies.com.
<len> I am not sure how they determine my time zone. I think it asked when I joined but there is no place in my profile to change that.
<len> I would take the bug direct to firefox, but the about says Mozilla Firefox for Ubuntu.
<len> Does this mean I file with Ubuntu first?
<micahg> well, it depends, if it's Ubuntu specific you should, if it's not, then upstream is fine
<micahg> I see All times are in JavaRanch time: GMT-6 in summer, GMT-7 in winter  at the bottom of posts here
<len> Ok, I will file for Ubuntu first. Yeah The bottom time is always correct. It is the message times/dates. It becomes obvious when a message I posted two days ago says it was posted today.
<len> When I post the bug I will include specific links/line numbers.
<len> Thank you for the help.
<micahg> thanks, I'll try to take a look after you file (I'm subscribed to all Firefox bugs)
<len__> the firefox problem is bug #916558
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916558 in firefox (Ubuntu) "firefox javascript returns wrong data." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916558
<len__> As we ship Firefox as our browser I guess this affects US as well.
<ScottL> len, just to let you know i'm getting back into development after an unfortunate hiatus
<ScottL> in particular the theme-ui is almost updated and would like your input on it
<ScottL> it probably will be a few days to a week until it's published in the image is my guess as we still need sponsors to get it into the archives
<ScottL> and keep in mind this is a first push and i do expect twekaing to be desired and needed
<len__> No problem. Will I see changes to seeds? or will it be somewhere else? Is there a page that shows all the changes to seeds as well as metas?
<len__> Also, what do I do with the docs I have put together? do you want a package? My server is pretty slow to point people at... so at the least it should be moved to the US site.
<len__> I have done about what I know (not much) I would be willing to take what anyone else has and format it to fit. even email or irc bits.
<len__> ScottL: The docs will be no use if they don't get put somewhere.
<ScottL> len, hmmm, i don't know about the docs, let me think about it for a bit
<ScottL> len__, ^^^
<len__> Yup, ok. I havn't made a package before, so I want to start soon to have learning time if I'm doing that ;-)
<len__> ScottL: Maybe I should do that as an exercise just to practice. Anyway, to honest, I am more worried about missing packages than looks. gvfs-backends, editor, cdrdao for example.
<len__> I would add audacity too as it adds functionality that is helpful when ardour is over kill. It is quick to set up and use when inspiration hits.
<len__> Just my two cents.
<len__> But I think it was already suggested as part of one of the new work flows anyway.
<len__> CDRDAO is a missing link if you are doing recording/mixdown/cd out.
<ScottL> len__, i agree about cdrdao
<ScottL> astraljava, were you going to look into porting cdrdao to gtk3?
<len__> ScottL: cdrdao will load now. It is just the GDCMaster that is broken. The cdrdao package now no longer includes that and should be included as is for now. When GCDMaster is fixed I would think it would either end up as part of the cdrdao package or be a separate package to be included at that time.
<len__> I was able to apt-get cdrdao and Xubuntu includes it.
<astraljava> ScottL: Yep. Now that I have been laid off, I should have time for that as well.
<ScottL> astraljava, are you really laid off?  as in no money coming in at all?
<ScottL> len__, you are correct, i meant gcdmaster
<astraljava> Not from the company, no. I will probably get some percentage of the salary from a union-like place.
<ScottL> that's good and better than i was thinking, although i'm sad to hear you got laid off :(
<astraljava> Thanks. Hoping to hear it'll be very temporary, but time will tell.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-15
<astraljava> meh... stupid bug in sound juicer. Won't mount the disc if it can't find the TOC in MusicBrainz.
<ScottL> astraljava, i was having trouble with rhythmbox and ripping to flac under oneiric :/
<astraljava> On top of that failure, sound juicer didn't understand if there was a 2-cd release. It suggested all tracks with a sole cd. Caused failures to rip the 2nd one.
<astraljava> Gotta file two bugs on that.
<knome> most of the cd rippers are bad
<knome> some of them are just less bad
<holstein> i personally dont care if ubuntustudio includes a way to rip music
<holstein> i think we should be more in the creation of content
<holstein> though,  have used rippers on projects before
<holstein> you get session files as an audio CD or whatever
<knome> i can see how ripping is part of creating new music too
<holstein> sure, but you can also argue that flash is
<holstein> watching youtube vids
<holstein> and we can never include that
<holstein> ill be happy when flash is gone!
<knome> heh, sure
<knome> me too
<knome> and i'm happy when pirating is gone too, but i still do rip my cd's :)
<holstein> well... i'll be happy when we can include foss tools to do everything that needs to be done
<holstein> i dont want to be to particular on the details in my day-dream
<knome> heh
<holstein> knome: yeah...i dont want to equate ripping to pirating
<holstein> but some would
<holstein> the record labels do :/
<knome> yeah. too bad.
<holstein> whatever... its *too* grey to get into it
<knome> well, in finland you are paying an additional tax every time you buy a blank CD
<knome> just because people are pirating
<holstein> knome: i heard about that
<knome> that sucks
<holstein> yeah, but here, we just put a single mom in jail occasionaly
<holstein> not sure that better
<knome> not really
<knome> but the finnish model is better of the worse too
<knome> +only
<astraljava> Mike, I wasn't suggesting we should include one by any means. I was just grumbling, since this is the most related channel on my list. :)
<astraljava> I see there's no informal meeting occuring in here.
<holstein> astraljava: mike is to me?
<holstein> im not complaining about it
<astraljava> I don't know any other Mikes. :)
<astraljava> ...in here.
<holstein> just starting a 'what should be included" convo
<astraljava> Yeah okay.
<holstein> and how challening that can be
<astraljava> I was worried you took it like that. :)
<holstein> astraljava: nah
<holstein> astraljava: you guys do what you ned to do too... include whatever
<holstein> im just trying to appreciate different perspectives
<astraljava> Are you not counting yourself as 'one of us'?
<holstein> TBH, we know someone will always have a problem with whatever ;)
<holstein> astraljava: i can.. im just no coder :/
<astraljava> I think of us as contributors, not coders.
<holstein> astraljava: cool
<holstein> im one of those!
<astraljava> Good, I was worried, again. :D
<holstein> hehe
<astraljava> Since there doesn't seem to be others, is there anything you'd like me to work on during the coming week?
<astraljava> I'm a bit out of the loop, and not sure what's urgent and what could be postponed.
<holstein> astraljava: well, just if there's anything i can do, as far as aking someone for something
<holstein> something not too technical
<holstein> what about the LIVE cd?
<holstein> is that happening?
<astraljava> I suppose that's one of the most urgent, yes.
<astraljava> I will ping Colin tomorrow, as he mentioned he's going to have some vacation in Feb., so that should be resolved during January.
<holstein> wow
<holstein> yeah... i would *love* to have it for 12.04
<holstein> live
<astraljava> I'm pretty sure we can get it done.
<astraljava> But I'll know more in 24h.
<holstein> astraljava: lets talk then... ill totally bother someone
<holstein> or test whatever
<astraljava> We will need tons of testing, so that'd be good if you could spare some time for that.
<holstein> astraljava: i'll make time
<holstein> and free up boxes
<holstein> virtualboxes.. metal
<holstein> whatever
<astraljava> Good to hear. Obviously I can do quite a lot as well, but we need different setups for sure.
<holstein> astraljava: what about the look and feel?
<astraljava> You should talk to Scott about that.
<holstein> i think falk could really knock that out in a short amount of time
<astraljava> I'm not a UX person at all.
<astraljava> Yeah that would be good too.
<ScottL> abogani, i'm having trouble getting the proper source for the lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> i thought it was me, because i don't understand the relationship between linux-lowlatency and linux-meta-lowlatency
<ScottL> but i'm not sure now
<ScottL> i installed a brand new precise install and tried to get the lowlatency source but i keep getting the linux-meta-lowlatency-3.2.0.8.8
<ScottL> instead of 3.2.0.8.15
<ScottL> and i can't find myself as maintainer in the 3.2.0.8.8 (although i'm not worried about that as much as using it as a qualifier to make sure i had the correct version since you grep'ed it)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-07
<Len-nb> zequence, and anyone else, put some email on the list about sample rates.
<ttoine> hello
<zequence> Len-nb: I don't have a specific opinion about 44.1/48kHz. I tend to use 48kHz by default, but that's just me
<zequence> ttoine: What's up?
<zequence> Len-nb: Did you follow the thread on jack devel list about graphic drivers, packaging, etc
<len-1304> zequence, nope, I can only follow so many things :)
<zequence> len-1304: Well, las brought up bad Ubuntu packaging. I answered, and it led to me posting the diff between quantal and it's Debian source
<zequence> Hopefully people will start to blame Ubuntu for everything
<zequence> stop*
<zequence> :P
<len-1304> Ya.
<scott-work> good morning
<astraljava> It's only natural. You know how the best bands in the world are always those nobody has ever heard of.
<zequence> scott-work: good morning Texas (is that where you live?)
<zequence> astraljava: I'm guessing that was meant for another channel? :)
<astraljava> zequence: Nope. In reference to the ubuntu-hatin'.
<len-1304> band should be brand?
<astraljava> It was a metaphor. I think.
<zequence> But aren't we the best, and the most famous?!!
<zequence> ..and let's not forget, the best looking
<scott-work> zequence: aye, i live in texas
<astraljava> zequence: The train of thought being it's fashionable to badmouth the famous.
<zequence> astraljava: right
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-08
<zequence-w> With a little luck, next release of linux-lowlatency for Precise and Quantal will have the changelog signed by me :)
<Len-nb> zequence-w, Congrats!
<zequence-w> Yep. Almost built now https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-team/+archive/ppa
<zequence-w> scott-work: My first update of the linux source. Sort of a milestone
<scott-work> zequence-w: congratulations!!!
<scott-work> that does mark a major milestone :)
<zequence-w> Much credit to apw, who has been assisting me
<zequence-w> I've been documenting my workflow here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/KernelMaintenance
<zequence-w> This is just updating the source, but I'm supposed to spin the package too next time
<zequence-w> Just that if we want changes done to the development release, we need to send patches to apw
<zequence-w> going home..
<micahg> zequence: awesome news about the kernel
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-09
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> scott is not there...
<astraljava> Give it two to three hours.
<ttoine> astraljava, thanks
<astraljava> No worries, but he has exactly 8 minutes to show up, otherwise I wasn't of much use. :)
<zequence> ttoine: What's on your mind?
<ttoine> zequence, just would like to know if he has some news from twitter
<zequence> ttoine: Ah
<len-1304> zequence, I have a hack that lets jack start every time... 
<len-1304> In the qjackctl setup->options->execute script on startup put :
<len-1304> pasuspender sleep 5 &
<len-1304> Probably even 1 or 2 would work instead of 5.
<len-1304> Anyway, For testing I have audacious streaming through pulse to hw:1 (the same IF as jack uses)
<len-1304> I tell qjackctl to start Jack and there is a quick stop start of audio and pulse switches from direct to the device to jack_sink.
<len-1304> zequence, I am not sure, But I think pasuspender uses dbus to tell pulse to release the device.
<len-1304> That would be the same as what Jackdbus does on start up.
<len-1304> The only difference I can see is that there is more time from PA giving up the device to jack trying to grab it.
<zequence> len-1304: pasuspender will make pulse let go of the card, so that enables jack to grab it. Then, when pulse starts again, jack already has the card, right?
<zequence> A hack, yes. But I guess we could consider adding it, if there's no fix
<len-1304> Well my guess is that pasuspender uses dbus to tell pulse to let go of the devices.
<len-1304> Just the same as jackdbus does.
<len-1304> The only difference is the amount of time involved.
<len-1304> I am not that good with c++ which is what jack2 is
<len-1304> But it should not be hard to come up with a patch for jack2 to fix it
<len-1304> add a half second delay
<len-1304> Anyway, I am posting this to the list and a copy to David H, who may at least know if my guess about how pasusupender works is right
<len-1304> That way I would know if I should bug against PA or jack.
<len-1304> zequence, BTW my 12.04 install seems to have stopped working too. So something has been updated that causes it.
<len-1304> Not pulse because it still uses the old version of pulse
<zequence> I have no idea about how dbus works, but the way I'd imagine the thing should work: 1. jackdbus tells pulse to give up the card 2. pulse releases it 3. pulse tells jack it's now release 4. jack takes it
<len-1304> I don't think that happens
<zequence> At least I'm imagining that jackdbus is either getting a false response, or ignoring it
<len-1304> I think dbus just returns an ack that the message got through
<len-1304> Not that it has been acted on.
<zequence> If jack is not able to monitor when pulse let go of the card, it doesn't know when it's ok to grab it
<zequence> You'd want some kind of return when the card was released
<len-1304> I think it assumes an ack from dbus means go.
<zequence> an ack that the message was sent is not the same as that the process finished
<len-1304> Yes.
<len-1304> I agree
<zequence> For some reason it does work when PA is not playing something though
<len-1304> Not always for me.
<len-1304> I have had the same problem after a fresh login
<zequence> Well, I can only guess, since I don't know anything about it. Does sound very undeterministic anyhow
<zequence> Like, it'll work, if pulse was not too busy
<zequence> or soemthing
<len-1304> Once David answers I will put a bug in.
<len-1304> I think I will download the src of both and see if I can find anything.
<zequence> len-1304: You have any experience in searching in code? I'm thinking I need to get a bit more professional with that. Use tools
<len-1304> I have done a bit, but I am more used to c than c++
<zequence> len-1304: You'll find the reserve code easily in the dbus folder of jackd2. The two files authored by Poettering
<len-1304> OK thanks.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-10
<len-1304> zequence, Looking at the jackd logs again. Something looks fishy... funky, out and out strange. (not sure how any of that translates)
<len-1304> It looks like: Jackd asks for device, PA gives it up, Jackd aquires it, qjackctl or jack_control try to connect to jackd via dbus and fail, dbus assumes jackd is not running and starts jackd, the second incarnation of jackd cannot acquire device... because jackd 1st instance already did. Everything folds.
<zequence> Already had my second update to the kernels done. Some sudden bugfix probably
<zequence> ttoine: Perhaps something for Ubuntu Studio to post about? http://www.redsharknews.com/business/item/355-lightworks-for-linux-alpha-test-applications-reopen-for-very-limited-period
<holstein> why?
<holstein> do we ship it?
<holstein> can we ship it... thats the question
<zequence> holstein: It's interesting from a multimedia perspective, and Ubuntu Studio should be the centerpoint for that as far as Linux multimedia is concerned
<holstein> if it can be
<zequence> We don't need to ship something in order to provide info and support for it
<zequence> I'm holding a Linux class at the moment. Pretty improvized, and only done two sessions so far. Installed Ubuntu with wubi and explained a bit about the differences between GNU/Linux and other OSs.
<zequence> Everyone did their own installs of course
<zequence> And this is like the only time I ever use Unity, and Software Center
<zequence> Software Center could behave a little better. One guy managed to get his install + upgrade to crash
<zequence> Fixed it in the terminal, but I didn't look further into if it was possible to fix in Software Center
<zequence> If no, that sort of thing is really not sexy for new users
<zequence> I should try it some more
<ttoine> zequence, some time in workshop and class, I explain how to install and use synaptic
<ttoine> zequence, yes this is interesting
<zequence> ttoine: Yeah, I must remember to do that. I've actually stopped using it myself. Only use the terminal these days. I'll be teaching them to use the terminal from now on. We'll be setting up servers and stuff
<holstein> zequence: nice
<zequence> holstein: Yeah, I'm figuring it's not that difficult is you just explain stuff in a simple way, and progress slowly. There aren't that many tools or builtin bash commands they need to learn in order to use the terminal, and the rest they can google, since they already have a basis for how to get by
<zequence> I'll be going through how to orientate in the filesystem. Then apt. 
<holstein> file system knowlege is slipping away
<holstein> its a shame really
<holstein> the iDevices dont share the hard drive like that...
<ttoine> zequence, did you apply for a lightwork licence ?
<zequence> ttoine: Nope
<zequence> Just saw the news before posting it here
<ttoine> zequence, for the idevices, there is an option to check in rythmbox
<holstein> i dont think there is any way we can include lightworks due to licensing
<zequence> ttoine: I've tried rhythmbox with an iPhone, but couldn't make it work that time. I know it has worked in the past. Maybe again, don't know
<zequence> registering now
<zequence> holstein: Yeah, if it's not going to be libre, I guess not. But, steam is not going to be libre either, and since because of its' great importance for the Ubuntu platform, it deserves attention, as it will make users more likely to be interested in using Ubuntu
<zequence> Lightworks might fill a very deep hole for many video folks
<holstein> sure, be we cant give it any attention
<holstein> we cant "fix" steam
<holstein> its made for 12.04... its kind of just the way it is
<holstein> it would be nice to have a lightroom live though.. if that is possible
<holstein> an unofficial live CD
<ttoine> zequence, I will be a linux tester for Lightworks
<ttoine> thanks a lot
<zequence> ttoine: Ah, great
<ttoine> scott-work, any news from Twitter ?
<ttoine> zequence, it is my job, to test everything;-)
<ttoine> and I agree with you, this is the kind of news we should relay on the blog once everything will be ready
<zequence> It seems it's not hard to get alpha access. I got an activation code too
<zequence> ttoine: There's no download yet, right? 
<scott-work> ttoine: no :(  i filed a notice about impersonation but i haven't heard back since
<ttoine> zequence, not yet
<ttoine> scott-work, did you contact the guy I gave you the email
<scott-work> i did not and i apologize for that. if you provide that information again i will contact him this afternoon
<zequence> ttoine: I had a look at your g+ page, and your circles, specifically. I noticed you mostly subscribe to people. I'd encourage you to add pages to organizations, like Ubuntu Studio. This is where I found the news about Lightworks for instance https://plus.google.com/u/0/105875974618718456564/posts
<zequence> Libre Graphics World
<zequence> There are tons of pages. Some better, some worse
<ttoine> zequence, this afternoon I was off
<ttoine> but yes, google + is a really good place to find good news
<zequence> You use searches? I don't use that a lot, but that's of course another good method
<ttoine> zequence, I use google news and rss, twitter, ...
<ttoine> it is hard to get everything...
<zequence> Since most people I know don't use g+, my circle is mostly just news sources. Yes, it's hard to filter
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-11
<holstein> !grub
<ubottu> GRUB2 is the default Ubuntu boot manager since 9.10 (Karmic). Lost GRUB after installing Windows? See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestoreGrub - For more information and troubleshooting for GRUB2 please refer to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2 - See !grub1 for releases before Karmic (9.10)
<ttoine> hello
<zequence> ttoine: Hi
<ttoine> zequence, did you see the invitation for the ubuntu council ?
<zequence> ttoine: No
<zequence> ttoine: Who, when where? :)
<astraljava> zequence: What's your email? I can fwd it.
<astraljava> Er... no need, there are archives. :D
<astraljava> zequence: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2013-January/004831.html
<zequence> Ah, I really need to see over my mail routines. I seem to miss stuff that I'm not expecting
<zequence> The expected mail, no problem at all
<zequence> astraljava: Thanks
<zequence> I'll be able to attend, so I'll be there
<astraljava> I'll see about it as well.
<astraljava> Ugh... didn't realize it's on Thursday. Can't make it, then.
<zequence> astraljava: Is that your squash game day?
<astraljava> Nope, and it's badminton actually. :) Thu is my choir practice.
<ttoine> zequence, on the mailing list
<ttoine> oh, astraljava was quicker
<ttoine> zequence, I just finished some comparative tests with the same session in Mixbus, on Ubuntu Studio desktop, Unity, Gnome Classic with effects and Gnome classic without effects
<ttoine> Mixbus uses Cairo, and it uses too much cpu when compositing is enabled
<ttoine> Unity: up to 100% cpu and so, xruns
<ttoine> Ubuntu Studio with compositing: 51%
<ttoine> Ubuntu Studio without compositing: 45%
<ttoine> Gnome classic with effects: 70%
<ttoine> Gnome classis without effetcs: 35%
<zequence> ttoine: That's pretty huge differences
<zequence> Len-nb: Seems like David got the PA jackd bug fixed :)
<zequence> ttoine: You didn't try gnome-shell?
<ttoine> zequence, No I didn't, but you are right, I have to test that
<ttoine> zequence, by the way, the Unity team leader is living in my area, I think I will talk with him about that
<ttoine> compiz is definitely "fat"
<zequence> ttoine: Isn't there a 2d version too?
<ttoine> of unity ?
<zequence> Yes
<zequence> Used to be, at least
<ttoine> perhaps in 12.04, but not anymore on 12.10
<zequence> Ah
<zequence> Yeah, I can find it on this machine. THis is 12.04
<zequence> unity-2d
<ttoine> zequence, gnome shell, around 55%. I had a few minutes at 75% but impossible to find why
<Len-nb> zequence, good to hear... when can we test? :)
<zequence> Len-nb: He posted a patch to the mail list, so one could try building PA from source
<zequence> Don't know if he
<zequence> Dont' know if he's submitting the patch to raring, or just to PA
<zequence> I'm behind with the SRU for jack. I could try get this done as well
<Len-nb> I would like to see it for both r and q
<Len-nb> it seems 12.10 has the same problem
<zequence> I'd say it's safe to say 12.04 also, just that the symptoms are different on different machines
<zequence> I could devote some time on this next week. Put up patched versions of PA in a ppa. Then start a SRU process for some packages
<zequence> This week I was having some noob problems with updating the kernel, that took many hours
<Len-nb> zequence, in following the thread in PA, it looks like there is still work going on.
<Len-nb> There may still be more problems to fix
<Len-nb> The commit may not come till next week anyway
<Len-nb> 12.04 has a different version of PA (1.*) than 12.10/13.04 (2.*)
 * Len-nb has to pick up his son
 * zequence will take a 9h nap now, and then play with his new toy: Raspberry PI
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-07
<zequence_> SonikkuAmerica: Hi there :)
<zequence_> cub: Better luck next time :) (jvm)
<cub> huh? I don't know which conversation we are continuing? :)'
<zequence_> jvm == junior VM
<cub> aaaaaaah *coff*
<cub> stupid goal. ;)
<cub> it's always great when it's SWE - FIN in the finals though. 
<zequence_> just on my out. Catch you later
<cub> alright, see ya
<cub> just set up a Trusty on my work VM
<OvenWerk1> zequence_: any idea how to detect if I am running a live session?
<OvenWerk1> It is probably not a great idea to install lots of packages to ram...
<zequence_> OvenWerk1: It works, but you run out of space pretty quickly
<zequence_> OvenWerk1: I'm sure there's a way to see if it is a live session, but this should give a hint: df -h /home/$USER
<zequence_> The mounts should be different too. I might not have time to look into the live bug myself today, maybe tomorrow
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-08
<OvenWerk1> zequence_: what I am suggesting is that if you are running live xubuntu, installing ubuntustudio-audio is probably a bad idea :)
<OvenWerk1> I am thinking that using synaptic to install a package or two should not be a problem, but installing a large meta is. Our installer should probably fail gracefully if run live and tell the user why.
<OvenWerk1> Or, it should limit itself to leave a fixed amount of ram for the system.
<zequence_> OvenWerk1: What you are talking about is beyond Ubuntu Studio. It's more a question of if the whole family of Ubuntu live installers, which to my knowledge all use the same tech should have a lock on installing too large debian packages
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-09
<xequence> OvenWerk1: You are probably the one who knows most about our live session right now? If you have time, please have a look at it
<xequence> OvenWerk1: I'm sure you are aware of the bug that prevents it from auto-loading from the DVD
<xequence> might be impossible to login even
<xequence> Xubuntu has a fix. I have it in the irc logs somewhere too
<xequence> I'm going to dive into that, if you won't. I'll also be pushing for making linux-lowlatency a part of the official source tree, so that we no longer need to maintain the SRUs. Just make config changes when needed
<zequence> bug lp:1259525
<zequence> bug 1259525
<ubottu> bug 1259525 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Lubuntu & Xubuntu & Ubuntu Kylin lightdm session fails to start. user-session is not set" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259525
<zequence> I added our package there now
<zequence> Going to commit soon. Seems easy enough
<zequence> I'm applying for upload rights now. I'll try to get it to be granted for a team that we ourselves can administer in lp, which would only include me and Len from the US team, at the most. Still, nice if we can get some control
<cub> That would be good.
<zequence> micahg: Hi. I'm applying for upload rights for the UBuntu Studio package set, and was wondering if you could endorse me :). https://wiki.ubuntu.com/zequence/DeveloperApplication#Endorsements
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-05
<OvenWerks> zequence: Added http://brunoruviaro.github.io/ardour3-floss-tutorial/ to the wiki https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/Resources As it has changes for Ardour 3.
<OvenWerks> The old one is for ardour 2.
<OvenWerks> I think when it is finished it will replace the old one, but it useful now as is. The old link has not been removed just in case.
<zequence> OvenWerks: The help wiki could really use a reorganization. Looking at it now, it is not clear in how it is useful to the user at first glance
<zequence> Good to see you online again
<zequence> Well, actively, anyway :)
<zequence> My work week starts in two days, so won't be on much before that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-06
<OvenWerks> zequence: A little active, I have DL images, will try some installs. It seems xubuntu has moved enough for us to rethink what we want things to look like. I should DL one of their images too.
<DalekSec> Just the panel and workspaces, isn't it?
<knome> mostly that
<OvenWerks> I think Studio still needs workspaces, though with two monitors, I find I use them less.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-07
<zequence> OvenWerks: I still think we should base ours entirely on theirs until we have multiple DE support, in which case we could consider adding a really light weight option for hard core performance enthusiasts
<zequence> I've only adjusted seeds, not settings for the last 2 releases (except for some bug fix)
<holstein> are folks interested in multiple DE support?
<holstein> seems like, we could entertain the idea, at a "good" stage, of *not* doing a release at all
<holstein> but, rather, just having meta packages to install into whatever host flavor
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-08
<zequence> holstein: I've thought about that some. Multiple DE support would mean we don't maintain the DEs, just add the packages to our seeds
<zequence> If certain things could be changed in Debian/Ubuntu, there might be less use for Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> I've been working on that for some time, but I don't have the power to make the changes and people are not that interested in audio specific problems
<holstein> zequence: well, i think it goes beyond a lack of interest
<holstein> i think there are actual conter-intuitive goals
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-09
<OvenWerks> zequence, holstein: I agree in both cases. I think the key is a good tool for setup and control of audio. Different people like different DEs and ways for doing things. I think relying on a menu stub is not going to work though.
<OvenWerks> Many of the new DEs do not handle menu stubs correctly (in fact KDE is the only one) and even xubuntu has moved away from the traditional menu.
<OvenWerks> I happen to like the traditional, but my likes have very little to do with where things are going.
<holstein> OvenWerks: what do you think would work?
<holstein> OvenWerks: i totally agree the stub wont do the trick..
<holstein> it would be nice to avoid something like "ubuntustudio-desktop-kde".. and just add the stuff into the menu into whatever the user is using
<OvenWerks> The problem is that some DEs are moving away from the menu to search engine style appliaction starting
<OvenWerks> There are a few well used things in a bar and the rest get searched for by typing in a search phrase.
<OvenWerks> This is ok if the desktop files have good keyword lists and the user knows what it is they are looking for.
<OvenWerks> holstein: ^^^
<holstein> OvenWerks: i like that search as well..
<holstein> OvenWerks: what do you do on you desktops?
<OvenWerks> Some one just starting (and even someone who has been around a while) is likely to be able to miss an app that doesn't exactly fit their search
<OvenWerks> I use the old win95 style menu.
<holstein> OvenWerks: when i use a menu, i like that, as well
<holstein> though, i usually dont use it
<OvenWerks> I understand that. You are not the only one.
<OvenWerks> The one thing that seems to be there on all the DEs is the systray. I think we will end up with an app in there
<OvenWerks> holstein: There is a lot less use of more than one workspace as well. I think a lot of people are using more than one monitor instead.
<OvenWerks> The mainstream DEs/OSs seem to be headed twards android style desktops, very simple with all the apps spead all over the desktop, just choose from the list. I think the idea of apps is being replaced with the idea of content, with the content desiding what app will use it
<OvenWerks> I thihk that the way to deal with a one workspace desktop and no menu without crowding oneself out of anywhere to work is with a lot of dropdowns from the top bar.
<OvenWerks> holstein: take qjackctl for example, one might open up to 3 windows when using it. A control window, a connections window, and a logging window. These take up space or require a user action to minmize them.
<OvenWerks> If qjackctl is moved to the systray it will at least be controlable directly from the systray icon so that get rid of one of the windows, but often the connections window gets left open and can be quite large. The icon turns red is an xrun happens, but there is no indication of bigger trouble.
<OvenWerks> Some applications have a good connections part of their app like ardour, but even then it only deals with where it's own i/os go, so while I can hook an Ardour i/o to an effect, I can't connect two effects together from ardour.
<OvenWerks> So, an app that sort of deals with a group of apps like an audio session manager. Falktx apps are working towards this in fact.
<OvenWerks> There is a lot of this stuff out there already, but it seems to me some of it has bitrot, or depends on a menu to start it or room on the screen to leave it open.
<OvenWerks> holstein: I am having a hard time explaining what I envision in my mind... maybe even a hard time imagining what is needed.
<OvenWerks> There is the also the problem of creating something that ends up being more in the way than helping as pulse often does for some people
<zequence> holstein: Supporting multiple DEs in our case would just mean adding a few lines in seeds, not more.
<zequence> I don't see how decentralizing Ubuntu Studio is counter intuitive
<zequence> It would mean we offer an installer, and a way to get what you need for multimedia production without making any choices for the user
<zequence> Wasn't that what you wanted?
<zequence> Well, we make the choice as to what we include in our metas, of course
<holstein> zequence: i think it'll be more challenging, as OvenWerks thinks..
<holstein> but, it wont hurt to try it, at all
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-10
<zequence> I'm actually doing some real studio recording on Ubuntu Studio for the first time since I got involved in developing it
<knome> about time ;)
<zequence> I've used it before, but not to this scale. Haven't had the opportunity for a long time. Makes a difference as to getting a feel for what works and what doesn't of course
<knome> yeah, it's a whole different "test" for the system
<knome> might even be a painful one, but a good one
<zequence> Only thing that bothered me to begin with was actually the panel at the bottom, which we still haven't removed
<zequence> When you're not used to it, it'll pop up in the wrong situations
<zequence> Also, since this is a studio only machine, I don't need pulseaudio, and we aren't providing an easy way to turn it off (which -controls is supposed to do, feature wise)
<knome> s/When you're not used to it, //
<kubotu> knome: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
<knome> i did nothing wrong... :)
<knome> playing with old laptop which suddenly works
<zequence> machines can be far from logical in how they suddenly decide to start working
<knome> yep...
<knome> i remember i had left it in a "operating system not found" state, but it booted well
<knome> then i had to convince the OS it has pae (pentium m)
<knome> after which i upgraded from precise to trusty without universe/multiverse enabled
<knome> that was fun, i had a trusty system with xfce 4.8 components
<knome> eg. nothing worked
<knome> now i'm upgrading the mess to utopic
<zequence> hehe
<zequence> hmmm, need to reboot
<OvenWerks> holstein: with regards to how hard it is to add studio to other DEs. It really depends on how much extra one wants to add to the experience. Just dropping the metas in place will "work"... but adding at least something that makes sure jack can use RT and reserved memory requires some tool. Making a nice audio distro requires more work, but the distance to go is hard to know.
<OvenWerks> holstein: The problem with going "too far" is that we end up with a very narrow work flow that I like but doesn't work for just about anyone else.
<OvenWerks> Making it configurable is yet more work :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-11
<holstein> OvenWerks: but, i think it may be more clear that way
<holstein> OvenWerks: if there were a meta that addressed that, and documentation..
<holstein> who knows
<holstein> its so far from the way folks are used to using computers
<holstein> folks *dont* buy the "apple osx audio production version".. or, "windows 10 with audio addon pack" or whatever
<holstein> they just get the OS, get used to it, and buy the applications they want to use
<holstein> not saying thats what i wish we were doing, just that its different
<OvenWerks> holstein: I think we can say we are already beyond the first step. A person can just add the metas already. Plus we have an installer that tells a person which metas make sense.
<OvenWerks> The next step is to roll in the installer we use on the ISO that allows the user to not install everything in the meta.
<OvenWerks> I also think That a Jack install needs to make sure the user is in the audio group. This is not done now because the debian user is already a part of the audio group. the ubuntu package for jack needs to make sure.
<OvenWerks> That might even beconsidered a bug with the ubuntu version of jack or with the user setup, thopugh the user setup not having audio group is ubuntu policy, so it is hard to call that a bug.
<OvenWerks> finding yet another way to give users access to the system would be great.
<OvenWerks> I feel that a jack install should just work. The user should not have to add themselves to a group, or even aknowledge a prompt to get it to work right as they do now. This is the biggest fail for just installing metas right now.
<OvenWerks> I think that is one of the biggest things we get asked about all the time.
<OvenWerks> The second niggest trouble area is that the jack2 install includes both jackd and jackdbus.
<OvenWerks> *biggest
<OvenWerks> We need to set things up so that only one of these will work. Our current ISO is set up to use jackdbus. The pulse module depend on it, qjackctl depends on it and some of the audio session managers depend on it. Yet almost all of the information out there documents using jackd instead. However as soon as jackd is started, qjackctl and PA no longer work right.
<OvenWerks> Also, the jack libs that jack aware applications use will start jackd for the user if it is not already running without asking. I found this out when making a jack aware MIDI program.
<OvenWerks> There are two solutions, one is to split the jackd2 package into two, one for jackd and the other for jackdbus. This will not happen.
<OvenWerks> The other is to use system default (/etc/default) to point jackd at a script that looks to the user like jackd, but really is just a wrapper for jack_control.
<OvenWerks> This would allow those who really do want everything jackd to change default and get the real thing as well as people who don't know still being able to use the documentation to learn jack
<OvenWerks> Oops sorry, I guess I was looking for the /etc/alternatives directory.
<OvenWerks> Using aternatives would mean changing the jack2 package, I don't know how easy this would be. Jackd would be a link to /etc/alternatives/jackd which would like to either the real jackd or a script that runs jack_control.
<OvenWerks> Using /etc/cd /etc
<OvenWerks> using /etc/profile line with alias jackd=jackd.script
<OvenWerks> might work too.
<OvenWerks> Both of these things could be controled by a Studio_controls application.
<OvenWerks> Controls might also turn the pa jack bridge off and qjackctl dbus option off if the user wants to really use jackd.
<OvenWerks> zequence: most of what I said above is for you too.
<OvenWerks> I am thinking out loud, hoping for input.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think we have gone over this before to some extent, but, in the case of giving a user permission to use jack in an automated way, should all users get it? Our normal policy has been that Studio is a single user setup, but in the add meta to another DE that may not hold true.
<OvenWerks> Also in a home system more than one person might use the system. It would be confusing that there is lots of applications in the menu that don't work right for some users.
<OvenWerks> Perhaps our kernel could have "slacker" permissions in the realtime area?
<OvenWerks> Or maybe a udev rule(s) to do the same thing?
<OvenWerks> It is possible that the lowlatency kernel gets used in an internet server for VoIP like aterisk for example, so slack permissions there is not a good idea.
<OvenWerks> Jack may be installed in a server as well, I would guess, so udev fiddles should be careful.
<OvenWerks> The users group seems to be no more, or it is there but not used. SO the whole idea of groups seems to be going away
<OvenWerks> is this no groups thing a ubuntu only thing, or is debian going the same path?
<OvenWerks> zequence: another thought has occured to me. The PA-jack bridge gives RT errors. I wonder if pa itself does not llok for RT stuff, but the pa-jack bridge does because it expects jack to have it. Pulse is in the audio group, so it may be something else. In general, the pa-jack bridge is not something that is well tested for little things like that. it just works for the most part. I am wondering though if this is part of the reason it goe
<OvenWerks> That may be fixed now. I don't see the PA errors in my latest install.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-11
<zequence> Jeez. None of the Cof's seem to be perfect. And, the one I claimed to be standard is not. It has a defect.
<zequence> Seems like cfhowletts uploads are the correct ones
<sakrecoer_> zequence: gah :(
<sakrecoer_> cfhowlett had the wrong brandmark if i recall correctly...
<sakrecoer_> i wish i could help you identify the correct one... but i have no idea what the nunaces are in the one in current-standard
<zequence> The text he uploaded was wrong, but the CoF's seem ok
<zequence> Or, they seem to be the correct ones. Not perfect, though
<sakrecoer_> what are the defect?
<sakrecoer_> i guess the nature of the defect doesnt matter, but it would be nice if we could agree on which files to use soon :)
<zequence> sakrecoer_: If you look really close on the CoFs, you will see it
<zequence> sakrecoer_: The one in the current-standard branch has a visible defect in the top end of the outer ring
<zequence> Zak fixed it. And, I believe the CoF's that cfhowlett published are the fixed ones
<sakrecoer_> ok :)
<sakrecoer_> feeling sorry for the HD render i put at home for the video-branding intro sequence :D
<sakrecoer_> my own bad for not double checking :)
<zequence> The difference is not big, but once you know it, at least it bothers me
<sakrecoer_> zequence: of course, it would bother me too, if i knew...
<sakrecoer_> now i see:( haha
<sakrecoer_> like a lil dillydoing
<sakrecoer_> the hd renders look great tho! easyfix+ motiondynamic lift up and then pifpafrender
<sakrecoer_> but witch one to take? :/
<sakrecoer_> which one=which logo?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-12
<zequence> sakrecoer_: I've updated the current-standard repo with the correct CoFs, and did a black version of the wordmark (just changed the color)
<zequence> Also added that to the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserShowcase
<zequence> There are more versions of the wordmark, but it's not really that important for the wallpapers anyway, so I'm going to leave it at this
<zequence> Will announce the contest tomorrow
<zequence> Once Zak is around, we can talk with him more about collecting standard art in one place, and also creating a page for it on our website
<zequence> We also need to change the website theme, so there's plenty to do
<zequence> I won't bother with this for a little while though. Need to do other stuff now :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-14
<cub> Good mention of Ubuntu Studio from Linux Foundation on Twitter and Facebook. I shared on Facebook but seems as the Twitter account has changed since I was logged in last time. If someone could retweet? zequence ?
<cub> https://twitter.com/linuxfoundation/status/687726383934525440
<cub> knome also have a design for Ubuntu community WP pages, I'll check it out.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-01-10
<OvenWerks> in 15 min or 45? or another time?  :)
<krytarik> I don't knooow! :D
<OvenWerks> Anybody else around?
<OvenWerks> (controls hasn't moved much)
<eylul> Sorry OvenWerks technical problems
<OvenWerks> So much for that one  :)
<eylul> which one?
<OvenWerks> this one (meeting)
<eylul> oh right
<eylul> I am very sorry
<OvenWerks> No worries
<OvenWerks> I have not much to report
<eylul> to be honest neither do I.  I am installing ubuntustudio to a new laptop so a few bug reports. but that's the extent of last few days I am afraid
<OvenWerks> I haven't done any testing. My P4 box doesn't like USB sticks and I don't have lots of DVDs to use up...
<eylul> *nods*
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-01-12
<chamois> Hello everyone! Sorry for the long silence. I've tried to make the boot image following the "box" idea, but I couldn't make something nice. Some advices?
<OvenWerks> chamois: Hi, good to see you around. I am probably not much help with that though. The only other people who seem to be around are eylul and krytarik in recent days
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-01-14
<studio-user281> Okay
<studio-user281> I see your on this list as well.
<krytarik> studio-user281: Then I'm sure you've seen this already?: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<studio-user281> Yes
<krytarik> studio-user281: Do you have an Ubuntu One/Launchpad account yet?  You'll need one to make any contributions there.
<studio-user281> I'm thinking something along the lines of full tutorials similar to wikihow or blog tutorials starting with simply getting programs open and working together. Killing pulseaudio if needed or at least getting  it under control if its missbehaving.
<studio-user281> Yes I do.
<studio-user281> I'm not the most knowledgable so I'll be needing some help from time to time. At least someone who knows better than I do to double check that I didn't fudge something up that will cause users problems or just reflect badly.
<krytarik> Yes, I'm sure we can help you with this.
<studio-user281> afk brb
<studio-user281> back
<studio-user281> who do I need to contact on Launchpad?  The mailing list thing doesn't mean gmail does it?
<krytarik> Contact about what?
<studio-user281> I can't just post it on the wiki can I ? Anyway I'd like someone to double check it before I made it public.
<krytarik> Well, it's a wiki - people get notified on changes.
<krytarik> But pretty sure you can't do ones just yet.
<krytarik> Mind telling us your LP user name, btw?
<studio-user281> Yea well I've never contributed to any wiki before and have no idea how this works. 
<studio-user281> CoffeeandNicotine
<krytarik> Please see the bit on here regarding gaining permission: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide#Contributing
<krytarik> Ah, I see: https://launchpad.net/~aggravated1
<studio-user281> Yep
<studio-user281> The user guide is what I want to help with. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide/Audio
<OvenWerks> studio-user281: That page looks like a bare start.
<studio-user281> Really the whole thing needs done.
<OvenWerks> yup
<studio-user281> I've looked at the penguinproducer but that has Kxstudio reps added and adding those adds so many things that for a beginner like me it just becomes confusing.
<OvenWerks> :) I wonder how falk feels about that...
<OvenWerks> It is all supposed to make things easier
<OvenWerks> In general, running jack from session start with a pa-jack bridge is the easiest way of doing things if the system is that way OOTB
<OvenWerks> kxstudio is set that way, or can be set that way from Cadence
<studio-user281> I've two laptop's with Ubuntu Studio on them one with Kxstudio and one without. The one with Kxstudio the sound for the browser stopped working and I'm probably just going to reinstall the whole system on it.
<studio-user281> Never have gotten Guitarix working on the one with Kxstudio but it works fine on the one with just Ubuntu Studio.
<OvenWerks> Ah, PA to jack is one of those things either it is set just right or it doesn't work.
<studio-user281> Anyway what I want to do for Ubuntu Studio is get the wiki user guide up to date and complete.
<OvenWerks> studio-user281: I have found that removing all alsa modules from pulse and using jack as it's only sound device is what works best.
<OvenWerks> holstien used to run his desktop to internal audio out and from there back into his firewire io and back out to the audio playback... but that should not be needed for a long time.
<studio-user281> For both with Kxstudio reps added and without?
 * OvenWerks is not so good with documentation.
<OvenWerks> personally I don't use the kxstudio repos. I have built Carla for my own use (would like to see it packaged for debian/ubuntu)
<OvenWerks> studio-user281: I would start working on without. if you find time using kxstudio repos with UbuntuStudio could be added.
<studio-user281> Well yea I wasn't going to mention Kxstudio I was just wanting to see Ubuntu Studio have a user guide.
<studio-user281> but I've messed with it.
<OvenWerks> I have played with it too. I like Carla, but not cadence
<OvenWerks> I use my own script.
<studio-user281> Cool
 * OvenWerks is on his way out to the movies with his family
<OvenWerks> I'll be back later
<studio-user281> okay enjoy
<studio-user281> Okay so assuming I make a post on the wiki is it like in wordpress where it can be set for review before its public?
<krytarik> studio-user281: I don't think so - but don't worry, it's all versioned, and can always be improved later.
<krytarik> (But of course, you still need permission first.)
<studio-user281> I'll be on tomorrow. I logged into launchpad and requested to join. 
<krytarik> Good.
<studio-user281> Thanks for the help krytarik
<krytarik> Sure - and thanks for your interest.  And we might have to expidate your acceptance to that team a bit. :P
<studio-user281> Cool Beans cya tomorrow if your on
<studio-user281> I'm out
<krytarik> Have fun.
<eylul> so uh.. 
<eylul> https://packages.debian.org/sid/krita
<eylul> this apparently happened
<OvenWerks> eylul: I think thats good?
<eylul> it is!
<OvenWerks> \o/
<eylul> I am not sure it made it to ubuntu side yet but we can sort that out, if kubuntu team didn't beat us to it
<OvenWerks> So we can get krita again.
<eylul> yes!!!
<eylul> *ahem sorry* a bit excited about this
<OvenWerks> I have moved the system side of -controls to /bin/sh BTW
<eylul> ok
<eylul> wait where where they before?
<eylul> *is confused*
<OvenWerks> but I have not done much still as I was working on adding personall  monitoring to Ardour (done) and redoing the manual (OSC part is done) it was using bash before.
<eylul> oh
<OvenWerks> Sorry, -control system side I had started with bash
 * eylul has no strong opinions on the matter
<OvenWerks> One of you suggested sh would be better
<OvenWerks> maybe it was krytarik 
<eylul> probably. I normally use bash, and I don't do a lot of elaborate shell scripting anyway
<OvenWerks> anyway, sh allows more systems to use it
<eylul> ah
<OvenWerks> sh is less flexable and maybe a little more secure... though probably not for what we are doing.
<eylul> *nods* I see
<eylul> I really need to pull off the UI and start working on it this week
<eylul> now that I survived the lets install ubuntu to a less than a year old laptop saga, more or less intact
<OvenWerks> eylul: I should put up where it is these days :)
<eylul> (IF you want me to work on it that is)
<OvenWerks> eylul: I think if I have two *.glade files open I can drag and drop the container from one to the other. I am only working on two tabs
<eylul> ovenWerks: if that will work better, I can work with that too... I do find it easier to start drawing then move to glade anyway, so whichever works easier for you
<eylul> krytarik, OvenWerks also: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/krita
<OvenWerks> I am assuming you are looking at tablet setup
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> eylul: That should all end up in one container like a "box"
<eylul> I do plan to go over the UI of audio side too, but it is probably better done once you are done with all the features.
<OvenWerks> GTKBox to be exact.
<eylul> I am not still entirely sure if we should keep wacom as part of the settings... or be split off to its own setting that can be launched from the ubuntustudio settings
<OvenWerks> Yeah, I have to do lots in Audio still.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> we are not aiming for zesty right?
<eylul> at least with tablet side I am not aiming for zesty but.. 
 * OvenWerks doesn't know...
<eylul> well ok, it happens when it happens
<OvenWerks> eylul: http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/controls-audio.png
<OvenWerks> left side shows if audio is setup wrong right side is correct.
<OvenWerks> eylul: there is no going back :) Basically it just fixes a bad install
<eylul> especially useful if somebody installs packages
<OvenWerks> Instead of Real Time Permissions Enabled, I should probably have real Time properly installed or some such.
<eylul> they cannot switch back to normal kernel?
<OvenWerks> eylul: yes but this is really about installing jack right
<OvenWerks> even with a generic kernel giving RT permissions helps jack run correctly
<eylul> ok
<eylul> suggestions
<eylul> instead of checkbox, I would have a button to fix it
<eylul> and only a text line if it is fixed 
<OvenWerks> eylul: sounds good
<OvenWerks> I used a check box because.... it was that way before
<OvenWerks> I did try to hide the whole check box line... it did not work.
<OvenWerks> I can try boxing the whole thing and hide that. But the red text line is just changed to "" when not needed. I felt if I could not hide the check box there needed to be some text to explain it's presense
<eylul> http://www.cosketch.com/Rooms/mvxbbyv
<eylul> that's fair
<OvenWerks> with a button I should be able to remove the border so even if it can't be hidden it won't be seen.
<eylul> its just from a UI perspective. I'd rather see a button when it is not possible, a status text when done, but not sure if glade allows that
<eylul> yup
<eylul> also profiles :) 
<eylul> e.g. audio profiles
<eylul> http://www.cosketch.com/Rooms/mvxbbyv (tries co-drawing tool)
<eylul> sorry double linking
<OvenWerks> it is taking a while to load
<eylul> this is temporary until I can find something self-hosted that does the same thing
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> All I see is two rectangles about the size of my whole png :/
<OvenWerks> Ah, now it is starting to draw
<eylul> wow this thing is awful
<eylul> no font size setting
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> I would have the warning text in red as is with the button under. Once the user presses it the red text changes to tell the user they have to log out and back in for it to take effect and the button no longer is shown (one way or another) Then on next login that whole portion is not there.
<eylul> ok
<OvenWerks> Or states it is correctly installed
<OvenWerks> So there is some indication when the user presses the button that something happened
 * OvenWerks is being called...
<eylul> I am going to move this to a proper file, just brainstorming. 
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I am going to spend some time with the family for a while. I will be back later or 2morrow.
<eylul> Alright. I'll finish and email the drawing sketch to list
<eylul> or I might just do it in glade
<OvenWerks> :)
<eylul> :)
<eylul> ttyl
<eylul> ovenwerks, glade file and pngs are at the mail :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-01-15
<_SleePer_> hello everyone, iam a new user of ubuntustudio, and i like very much of this distribution of ubuntu and i like to contribute. I was reading and i will like to make parte of the test team, can anybody help me to enter the team?
<eylul> hi _SleePer_: https://rossgammon68.wordpress.com/2016/12/11/manual-tests-of-ubuntu-studio-packages/
<eylul> manual test cases: http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/370/builds/135507/testcases
<eylul> I would also strongly recommend subscribing to the mailing list at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<eylul> let us know if you have any questions. :)
<_SleePer_> thank you very much, i will visit the links and if a have any question i will tell you. :)
<_SleePer_> another question, can i regist my nick name to be for me or something? thks
<cfhowlett> !register | _SleePer_ 
<ubottu> _SleePer_: For information on registering your IRC nick, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat/Registration - For any further help, ask in #freenode.
<_SleePer_> thanks a lot
<OvenWerks> eylul: don't put too much into what Ralph has to say. He knows only his own use on his own system. Much of his info is old. That is part of the reason I have stopped posting anything to do with this app on the mailing list. I won't say he knows nothing, but I will say he has very strong opinions and expects they are right for everyone.
<OvenWerks> eylul: also he spends no time on irc where most of the help to newbys happens and so he really has no idea what they need.
<eylul> ok now I am very curious what Ralf said
<eylul> but thanks Ovenwerks <3
<eylul> OvenWerks: I will answer him
<eylul> I need to read up on what he is saying, there is some valuable ideas on this input. I am not personally offended (spent too many years, as doing tech support to even blink at this :D) but I really wish we could instill a mailing list culture that doesn't involve regular explosions. this is bad for conversation
<OvenWerks> eylul: That is why I have not answered :) We do not need a flamewar
<eylul> heh
<eylul> so help me understand
<OvenWerks> Some of the things he has said are also why I have not put in bit depth.
<eylul> aaah
<eylul> well we can always remove it
<eylul> this is a mockup you guys decide on content ultimately
<eylul> one thing through
<eylul> wasn't there a requirement of matching say, what is coming from one's microphone or sound device when setting?
<OvenWerks> I will change "buffer" to something else
<eylul> I have already changed buffer to framerate
<eylul> at least I think I did 
<OvenWerks> Jack checks what the device is able to put out and will use the greatest bit depth it can find. but no matter what it starts with, internally it is 32bit float
<eylul> aaaah
<OvenWerks> framerate is something else again.
<eylul> so you don't have to set it
<eylul> frame/cycle
<eylul> whatever his wording was
<eylul> the only change I did was to replace "fast response" with "low latency"
<eylul> :P
<OvenWerks> There are a very small number of audio cards that do not tell what the bit depth is.
<OvenWerks> My full intention is that most users will not even look at this applet for months because the defaults will just work...
<eylul> I expect there to be a few profiles
<eylul> like audio production (maybe the split Ralph describes of live audio work vs music production)
<eylul> then something like gaming that uses in practice no low latency/priority settings
<eylul> OvenWerks: what do you think about his thing about 48000k being default?
<eylul> I mean we are not at the stage of discussing this really but
<OvenWerks> I use 48000 as default, it is the industry standard
<OvenWerks> All PC audio hardware uses 48000 buses, all video use 48k all broadcast (profesional) uses 48k
<OvenWerks> 44k1 is the odd thing made to fit a bit more time on a CD
<OvenWerks> Lots of people use it, but in my opinion should not
<eylul> ok
<OvenWerks> Most audio interfaces sound better at 48k than 44k1
<eylul> yeah no I use 48k as default, I only put 192k because that's what was there on your screenshot *chuckles*
<OvenWerks> over 48k does not gain anything at all but use more disk space
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> ok so I'll change that to 48k no big, seriously this is a mockup anyway :P
<OvenWerks> You would notice in the second part of my screen shot it says 48k as it does when running.
<eylul> AH I missed that
<OvenWerks> anyway, I have to go.
<eylul> alright
<eylul> thank you for working on this 
<eylul> I'll email, then I'll update the thing again, but if we are going to keep working on this, we should really setup a git somewhere
<eylul> :D
 * OvenWerks needs to get something working first. Once there is a working package, what I am trying to do should be a lot more obvious.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> I understand that OvenWerks :) just having a repo might be easier than trying to email glade files back and forth :P
<eylul> I am not saying lets have a ready made package :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-01-10
<flocculant> you guys know there is an iso for artful to test by tomorrow?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-07
<Fundinn-Of-The-I> Hello!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-08
<Jessedavid4> Hello!
<Eickmeyer> Jessedavid4: I got your private message. If you wish to provide feedback, please subscribe to the mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users.  Feedback is not welcome via private message.
<Jessedavid4> That I did. Is there a way to send the feedback via mailing list?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, by sending an email to it.
<Eickmeyer> But in the future, please do not send unsolicited private messages.
<Jessedavid4> Forgive me! I'll make sure not to in the future.
<Eickmeyer> No worries.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-10
<Jessedavid4> If anyone could assist me with a problem I am having regarding a package install, that'd be great. As it seems I am unable to now use the package system. I do know what the problem is, but It seems that I cannot find a way to fix this said issue.
<Eickmeyer> Jessedavid4: official support is in #ubuntustudio. #ubuntustudio-devel is for development collaboration.
<Eickmeyer> That said, we can dig-in there.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-12
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Found a nasty flaw with ubuntustudio-installer: It chokes when installing ubuntustudio-audio because jackd, when installing, has a dialog box. Is there a way we can expose a console?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: That used to work
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the best thing to do is like our ISO, set a debconfig variable that just answers yes.
<OvenWerks> When I first tried it, there was a dialog that did work for that.
<OvenWerks> Most sw installers just use "no" for everything to not get hung up.
<OvenWerks> The package may have changed just a bit and that may be why.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, strange. Any tweaks I made shouldn't have removed that. Is there a way to do that using the command line that we can implement in the .desktop file?
<Eickmeyer> Also, it's an ncurses dialog, so that may have something to do with it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the whole thing is a script, so it should be possible to set variables.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: our preseed file does: "jackd2jackd/tweak_rt_limitsboolean true"
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: right now I think we just do an apt install <long list>
<OvenWerks> maybe we should separate out jackd2. The truth is it no longer matters if the dialog is answered yes or no so long as -controls is run after.... or even /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-system fix
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Well, if that's the case, maybe we should have the script set that variable.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I am just lookign to see how I might do that
<OvenWerks> it looks like we need to do two things...
<OvenWerks> DEBIAN_FRONTEND = noninteractive
<OvenWerks> then run apt with the -y flag to assume yes
<Eickmeyer> Not sure if you got the memo, but -installer is now a git repo in case you still had the bzr repo.
<Eickmeyer> Sounds easy enough of a fix.
<OvenWerks> no problem I am not actually working on the code...
<Eickmeyer> I'm looking at the code now.
<OvenWerks> that was it! RUN DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive apt-get install -yq jackd2 seems to be working. Feel free to post it as an answer or and I will accept it or let me know if I post it. 
<OvenWerks> from: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40160592/dockerfile-how-to-pass-an-answer-to-a-prompt-post-apt-get-install
<OvenWerks> I think -yq means assume yes and be quiet
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I think you're right.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if we want quiet or the progress bar may no longer work.
<OvenWerks> (it looks for certain output from the command)
<Eickmeyer> The line I see that may be relevant in the code is 	set instcmd "pkexec apt-get install -yq=0 $pkgs |& cat"
<OvenWerks> Ya, that looks right
<OvenWerks> just add DEBIAN_FRONTEND = noninteractive; in front?
<Eickmeyer> I'll try that and see if it works.
<OvenWerks> The problem doesn't show up if jackd2 is already installed
<Eickmeyer> I'll have to remove it (and ubuntustudio-audio) if I'm going to test it again.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, pushed, rebuilding in autobuilds. I'll let you know how it goes.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, that didn't work. Probably needs "set DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive;".
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: What did the trick was adding DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive as a separate set instcmd right before it.
<OvenWerks> cool
<Eickmeyer> I'll be pushing the change shortly.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-06
<Eickmeyer[m]> Can confirm: Matrix already works. I worked with the Matrix people on the messages not making it across the bridge, and they seem to be getting that to fix.
<Eickmeyer[m]> My account had a weird issue that helped them with that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks, @azbulutlu
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's just hard to support people across the bot, and for some remembering the syntax (putting the @ in front of the item to tag them and not having tab complete) are kindof issues.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> that's more than understandable.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: the main problem was that on the irc side All messages are from "studiobot" (with what we have now)
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, I think I'll be working on closing the Telegram-IRC bot to the -offtopic and main channels while keeping it for development since it's easier, but finally linking the Matrix channels (which are bridged, except -offtopic which has an issue).
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Unfortunately, the nature of Telegram makes it that way.
<OvenWerks> That makes it really hard to to know which conversation one is following.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Exactly, which is why it might be OK for dev collab, but not for support.
<OvenWerks> It is also a pain that abc -tab doesn't work.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> is anyone except me using the bridge on devel?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> because if not....
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu, @teward001 uses it.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ah ok
<OvenWerks> huh... of course /n only shows studiobot, not the users behind.
<Eickmeyer[m]> (intentional tag is intentional, teward :D
<teward> :P
<teward> i'm on IRC right now but I do use the telegram bridge
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> xD
<Eickmeyer[m]> There's a command syntax for teleirc, it just escapes me at the moment.
<Eickmeyer[m]> While I've got everyone here (except Ross of course, and possibly wonko ) I just wanted to say how proud I am of everyone. Things have come leaps and bounds from where they were 2 years ago, and we're in a really good spot.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I just hope more people step-up with support, because that's where we're lacking (and it's burning me right out!).
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yikes
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm not going anywhere, but I have been pushing IRC and askubuntu.com support channels (and now probably Matrix) and having people volunteer there.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm also pushing 19.10 for people who want LTS since it's a small leap to 20.04 when it comes out.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Let's face it: 18.04 was a dumpster fire.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> do you want me to reach out to some people. there are a few experienced users on mastodon side that tends to communicate there when people ask questions but not sure what availability is for people
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> its not terrible, not with the backports
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu Absolutely. We need more participation in IRC as well as on askubuntu.com monitoring the ubuntu-studio tag.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> <--is still on bionic for main machine but planning a reinstall
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu Yeah, it's not terrible, but getting people to add the backports is hard enough.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm going to be getting a blog post ready for the switch from Telegram to Matrix. I'll probably give it a week for people on Telegram to transition before I close the Telegram groups for support and offtopic.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> tag me when it is up
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu Will do. Also, it's really early in the morning for you, isn't it? :D
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and can we please add a plugin to the website to cross post to mastodon as well... :)and yep..
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ill poke tomorrow at my side of social media and see if we can get anyone. we especially need people on eu timezones right?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and gnight. *crashes*
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu I'll see about the plugins. And, yes, we need EU timezones and Australia timezones. Most of the stuff that happens in there is when OvenWerks and myself are sleeping.
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu Good night!!  Get. Some. Sleep.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Ill have some recommendations. I'll update my research and email that works for you gnight.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Moving -lowlatency-settings and -performance-tweaks in -default-settings from depends to recommends. With -lowlatency-settings being a dependency it's causing problems for people who might not want the lowlatency kernel as it can uninstall the entire desktop via "apt autoremove". Either way, it will still remain part of the default setup for the ISO.
<OvenWerks> sure...
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: You okay?
<OvenWerks> Mostly, been some emotionally charged stuff around the home.
<OvenWerks> Not bad bad, but difficult.
<OvenWerks> One of my sons is having emotional difficulties probably related to chemical imbalance
<OvenWerks> It is hard to live with is all.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I can relate with that. I've got chemical imbalance issues myself. It's not easy, and getting people to understand isn't easy either. Sorry to hear you're going through this.
<OvenWerks> anyway, -controls now has a gui for tablet buttons, tablet size and a pen tab... not sure what will be in the pen tab yet :)
<OvenWerks> My son wants a button that switches the pen from pressure based to 1/0 and back.
<OvenWerks> so sort of a preset for for pressure curves
<OvenWerks> Don't know if you saaw my message serveral days ago... 
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xf86-input-wacom/+bug/1857509
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1857509 in xf86-input-wacom (Ubuntu) "Missing digimend config file" [Undecided,New]
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I saw it. So, are we waiting on that bug or no?
<OvenWerks> I am thinking of making a list of HW ids that should be there and making a ubuntustudio-* file on boot if any are detected or maybe just a file that includes them all
<OvenWerks> gotta go...
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Ok. Take care.
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu: Blog post is up. Got to the point straight-out, but offered Matrix as the replacement. So far, feedback has been good. I have revoked the group links for the Telegram groups (except Dev).
<sakrecoer[m]> Thanks Eickmeyer !
<Eickmeyer[m]> No problem, sakrecoerð¸ï¸ð¸ð¿ !
<studiobot> <teward001> i'mma have to get matrix i think but i think i had some headaches with that
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://matrix.to/#/!POUKPGuLMlimpByftw:matrix.org?via=matrix.org is the Matrix link to this room, FYI.
<sakrecoer> greetings!
<sakrecoer> kryten DalekSec : you aprove of the command dax gave me?
<sakrecoer> -> /msg chanserv flags #ubuntustudio-offtopic Eickmeyer+F*-OVb
<sakrecoer> dax: i hope you don't mind if i ask like that. i don't really remember talking with you before and it was in #offtopic and all... <3
<teward[m]> I think the core q is does IRCC want to give Eickmeyer full unrestricted control of the channel.  It would make sense but thats an IRCC internal decision
<sakrecoer> that was my feeling aswell, hence why i ask before proceeding.
<teward[m]> Because that command will give Eickmeyer the ability to set ops and flags and such independent of IRCC governance
<teward[m]> I think this should get its own thread in IRCC sak
<teward[m]> And be discussed by IRCC first and not necessarily publicly if theres internal concerns
<teward[m]> I think IRCC woild want to retain founder for themselves and let Eickmeyer set a more limited set of powers but again thats IRCCâs call
<dax> #ubuntustudio-offtopic isn't an IRCC core channel, so it's not within our purview
<dax> #ubuntustudio and #ubuntustudio-devel are, hence us being involved there
<teward[m]> ah cool
<teward[m]> Wasnt sure the governance there dax :)
<dax> i.e., we're involved in -offtopic as a matter of facilitating channel recovery, not under the aegis of appointing new chanops
<dax> no problem, it's a subtle distinction
<sakrecoer> thank you dax! would you be so kind to shoe me how i can verify your affiliation with the IRCC. I've gotten rusty on the procesdures
<teward> I can verify that
<teward> Since dax granted me my ops on #ubuntu-server and has been IRCC for a while
<dax> well, a month :P
<teward> This said, should be listed in their LP profile if i remember right
<sakrecoer> i'm not sure how to verify that either, teward :/
<teward> ... unrelated IRC exploded
<teward> *salts Matrix*
<dax> sakrecoer: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2019-November/001908.html
<dax> it's also on my LP profile, but my LP profile is missing my IRC handle, i should fix that
<teward[m]> I was about to say dax :P
<DalekSec> sakrecoer: That'd transfer foundership to Eickmeyer, well if you include a space there.  I believe that's what you want?
<sakrecoer> many thanks dax :)
<dax> it'd add, not transfer
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward001: IRCC already gave me OP access in this channel and #ubuntustudio, but -offtopic is outside their domain.
<teward[m]> As dax just said :P
<sakrecoer> greetings DalekSec ! good to ready you! yes that is what we wanted to achieve. :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward001: Ah, didn't read down all the way.
<teward[m]> :P
<dax> sakrecoer: found my home password manager, https://launchpad.net/~rww is now updated (note the group memberships and IRC nick list). the entire council list is https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council/+members
<sakrecoer> nice to IRC meet you dax :)
<sakrecoer> many thanks for your help!
<sakrecoer> mine is https://launchpad.net/~sakrecoer in case :)
<teward[m]> https://launchpad.net/~teward if you need mine but Eickmeyer knows who I am and I think dax does too :P
<teward[m]> returns to kicking around packages in his local builders
<dax> (i would hope so, since i added you to LP groups :P)
<teward[m]> :P
<sakrecoer> nice to IRC-meet you yo teward[m] :)
<sakrecoer> very nice to see so many users in here :)
<teward> Well this IS the devel channel and a number of us contribute.  :)
<teward> Eickmeyer: thanks by the way for the mention in the blog update about the state of Studio
<teward> Always nice to get mentions for my helping out :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-07
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Quite welcome. You've been a huge help, and one of the reasons (as I mentioned) that Ubuntu Studio isn't going anywhere.
<teward> And thatâs no small praise.  Thank you :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-08
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Got any experience with Docker or know someone who does who can evaluate a log for me?
<teward> I know a bit about docker, why?
<teward> Whatâs broken and who needs to be yelled at for it :P
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: It's an unrelated project. I'll DM you.
<teward> Ok
<temporary_visito> Morning, sirs.
<temporary_visito> Anybody alive here to discuss RME Hammerfall card issues here?
<temporary_visito> Well, considering the geostationary delay ;)
<temporary_visito> The issue: cannot make this card working under Ubuntu Studio: 03:01.0 Multimedia audio controller [0401]: Xilinx Corporation RME Digi9652 (Hammerfall) [10ee:3fc4] (rev 03) 
<temporary_visito> while this card is working: 09:04.0 Multimedia audio controller [0401]: Xilinx Corporation RME Hammerfall DSP [10ee:3fc5] (rev 6b)
<temporary_visito> the issue: neither hdspconf nor rmedigicontrol appplies to the particular card ([10ee:3fc4]).
<temporary_visito> And indeed, rmedigicontrol.c does not even consider this card within the statement
<temporary_visito> if(strcmp(snd_ctl_card_info_get_driver(hw_info),"Digi96")==0)		{*BLAAH* }
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-09
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: sorry about the upload and build, I needed to be able to install on my son's computer to test it out...
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: No worries.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m] @azbulutlu: working on tablet stuff for -controls. Want to check my thinking... or lack there of  ;)
<OvenWerks> Right now I populate the gui from what the tablet is now arther than what the config file says.
<OvenWerks> My thinking is that, everything working right, the device should be the same as the config file anyway.
<OvenWerks> That is it should have been set at session start.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I don't really have a wacom tablet to check it against, so we'd have to leave that to @azbulutlu.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: yes she has more than one. That makes her a good person to ask.
<OvenWerks> I have one (well my son does)
<OvenWerks> So everything I can test is based on that.
<OvenWerks> I also have the idea that someone with more than one would probably like all of them to get set at boot and not just one.
<OvenWerks> Or they would like whichever one is connected to get set... it may be that because of a different arangement of buttons they would want different setting for each tablet
<OvenWerks> All of this means saving values for all the possible tablets a user owns and checking at session start which ones are actually plugged in and set all of those.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I think it needs to happen when tablet is connected?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it is a good idea to check if there is a tablet on session start but people will plug in and out tablets all the time. and it is not uncommon to have multiple
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> think usb microphones as anology
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ovenwerks
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I do need to run but I'll type more later today
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (Voice, 0s) http://studiobot.ericheickmeyer.com:9090/bkeZovGi/file_80.oga
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: So that means we need to keep a data base of drawing surfaces the user owns, if they are plugged in or not... I think.
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: this is not like usb audio at all maybe.
<OvenWerks> The buttons on pads, are they always arranged the same way?
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: wrong question... would button 1 always need to be set the same way for the same application even on different pads?
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: would I be able to just hit each pad as plugged in with the same configuration?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: we may have a problem -controls if not run by the installing user. 
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: nope scratch that, it's fine
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I was about to say that doesn't make sense, but if we're OK then we're OK. :D
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: I know, talking to myself... but farther thought would indicate that much of my work to display the device was wasted :P
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: The device doesn't matter so long as I can get a list of devices for setting up and detect as they are plugged in.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: next problem... maybe is that I may need to compare any usb device that gets plugged in against a known list of tablets.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Perhaps, but that's going to be a gigantic list, and might be overkill.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it is strange, lsusb on our tablet jsut shows a serial number no description, but dmesg does show pad and stylus
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Gotta love inconsistency. /s
 * OvenWerks wonders if there is a command to xorg that makes it reread a config file
<studiobot> <teward001> `sudo shutdown -r now `*shot*
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<Eickmeyer[m]> @teward001 You may proceed to alt-F4.
<Eickmeyer[m]> shot
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-10
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ovenwerks yes to database
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> no the buttons... while generally going up to down are not the same. some tablets have buttons for the ring keys it has in middle some new tablets doesn't come with buttons at all. with xwacom I had a script that threw out the alphabet in order for each button and I pressed each button once to figure out what was went where. there might
<studiobot>  bw a database of this somewhere but I don't know. :(((
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and no probably for this reason button layouts should be tablet specific
<OvenWerks> yummy :P
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> so a series of layouts for each tablet yeah I know
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> there is a reason why my attempts at this never went beyond that wiki document
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: I think I will start with the assumption that the user has one tablet. That will cover a lot of people.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but hey at least you can assume people have 1 wacom tablet plugged in at one time
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> sorry to be the bearer of bad news
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> errr
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the thing is the hard part isn't having multiple tablets
<OvenWerks> Peop;e will need to have each tablet plugged in so they can set up that tablet anyway. then we will save that with the device id.
<OvenWerks>  But I have to start somewhere
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh I see
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> well as long as it won't make it harder to add it later
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> a lot of people might have 1 default layout
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> then a couple of layouts for apps they use a lot
<OvenWerks> Basically I will need to keep track of any tablet that has ever been attached. Then use that list for set up
<OvenWerks> From what I can see of xsetwacom's output, there are only so many things one can do.
<OvenWerks> There are up to 12 buttons
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> you set them as they are plugged in I think
<OvenWerks> there is a possition
<OvenWerks> there is a pressure curve
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> you cannot even use xsetwacom if yiur tablet is not plugged ib
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> in
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> sorry I am typing on phone this is not really helping at all
<OvenWerks> that is true, but if I have a data base of devices I can save values to a config file of those.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> so when someone plugs in a wacom that's when you want to bring the default setup and possible overrides per application for that tablet
<OvenWerks> The first thing I will put in I think, is size position
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> size position?
<OvenWerks> yeah, the position the tablet maps to on the screen
<OvenWerks> This will default to monitor size
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh yeah that's another fun thing
<OvenWerks> (most of the time it does already so far as I can see)
<OvenWerks> I have had people who have not had that happen.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> not always but at first phase you need only a few tjings
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> things
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> stretch to one screen
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> stretch to a secondary screen
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> stretch to all screens
<OvenWerks> I will start with 4 numbers :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> one option at least to either stretch to a  subsection of the screen that is proportional to the tablet size or use the a subsection of the tablet that is proprtionak to the screen
<OvenWerks> Then I will add the 12 buttons, 1 to 3 and 8 to 16
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok?
<OvenWerks> These are what I have on the GUI so far
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> honestly I think that is a good start
<OvenWerks> Then I will add pressure and pressure curve
<OvenWerks> There is one tab for the pad (include buttons) and one for the pen/sylus
<OvenWerks> But it seems it may be easier to just use one screen.
<OvenWerks> It was just that they show as two devices.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Id start with 1 screen
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> then split it off
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I want to say pen button shortcuts (including the single click double click and eraser click) should be with buttons
<OvenWerks> what I would like to do is have a tablet tab that has device sub-tabs
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> not on pen tab because these settings will vary based on application
<OvenWerks> HID 256c:006e Pen stylus        	id: 11	type: STYLUS    
<OvenWerks> HID 256c:006e Pad pad           	id: 12	type: PAD      
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> pen pressure and tablet size proportion will probably be separate settings (especially since many drawing apps etc handle their own pressure sensitivity and even have a secondary layer of complexity of brush specific pressure maps)
<OvenWerks> That is the device list for one tablet
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yeah pen and pad
<OvenWerks> So I can use the bit in the middle as a common device decriptor
<OvenWerks>  and assume pen and pad from that. The only time I need those to be in full form is when they actually get set
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the first part yed but why do you need to list the devices?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh.. to save settings yeah
<OvenWerks> If I am going to have different settings for each device I need some key to refer to them all
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yep no that is good
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I cannot remember if that indicator is model or model plus device ID
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> its 4am here and I need to be up in like 5 hours so I will be off to sleep now.
<OvenWerks> So a default for all devices that would fill the values for new devices.
<OvenWerks> g'nite
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'll try to lookup matrix transformations this weekend for the screen resize (they are not needed for swapping between screens but it will be needed for anything else - which actually skip stretching between 2 screens for now because I just realized that is quite complicated. my script assumed both screens had the same size which rarely
<studiobot>  happens)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> well not rarely but far from guaranteed
<OvenWerks> xrabder give lots of info though
<OvenWerks> *xrander
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> its more that intelligently mapping to 2 screens... depends on screens positions and their relative proportions
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok I am not talking about this anymore not until I have a chance to double check my old intuos script. and gnight. and I am still very excited you are doing this btw :))
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-11
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: would it be true to state that in general for each drawing device that has buttons, the set of actions those buttons should perform should be the same. However, the buttons on each device that perform those actions may have different names?
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: So if I have buttons A - L where button A might always be "UnDo", UnDo on one device might be button 1 but on another it may be button 8?
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: this is asside from the fact that the manner of doing an UnDo may be different from application to application
