#ubuntu-meeting 2005-05-02
<jdthood> Mention of the 13 April Community Council Meeting can be removed from the topic of this channel.  It was said that the meeting will be rescheduled.  Anyone know the proposed date(s)?
<Treenaks> jdthood: good luck.. topic is not protected ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-05-03
<jordi> I wonder if there's a channel dedicated to UDU?
<ajmitch> not yet, afaik
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-05-01
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Apr 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<freeflying-ibook> @schedule Shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 26 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 21:30: Xubuntu | 28 Apr 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 Apr 06:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 04 May 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<freeflying> @schedule Shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 26 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 21:30: Xubuntu | 28 Apr 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 Apr 06:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 04 May 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<cbx33> @schedule London
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 26 Apr 13:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 14:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 23:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 04 May 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Apr 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<jelkner> Is the meeting over?
<ogra> jelkner, which TZ are you in ? 
<ogra> @schedule EST
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 08:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 17:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 07:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<JaneW> 3 mins
<JaneW> ok let hit it
<JaneW> hi everyone
<blugtu> hi jane
<jelkner> hi jane
<JaneW> 5 weeks to Dapper release
<jelkner> class starts for me in 15 minutes
<sivang> hey JaneW 
<JaneW> hi sivang 
<JaneW> edubuntu is in pretty good shape
* highvoltage can't wait
<highvoltage> edubuntu is great!
<jelkner> edubuntu is fantastic!
* ogra just created https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda
<JaneW> thanks to ogra for that
<jelkner> thanks, ogra!
<cbx33> edubuntu rawks :D
<JaneW> thanks ogra
<cbx33> thank you ogra 
<ogra> stop now, i'm blushing :)
<jelkner> i have a quick question...
<ogra> shoot
<JaneW> we have it on the top of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingRecords too
* cbx33 imagines ogra's handsome face blushing :p
<jelkner> ogra: can you please tell me again how to chroot when you dist-upgrade to dapper?
<ogra> JaneW, we need a dynamic agenda
<JaneW> ogra: agreed
<jelkner> or rather rebuilt the ltsp-chroot
<cbx33> I think it is becomming increasingly necessary
<ogra> jelkner, can we do that outside of the meeting ? 
<highvoltage> jelkner: that's a question for #edubuntu :)
<jelkner> yes
<JaneW> esp with the edbuntu membership
<ogra> yep
<ogra> so from the tech side :
* highvoltage is interested to hear more about that
<ogra> not miuch to say, i'm merely busy with ubuntu bugs 
<ogra> we decided to have an update for the beta CD, so beta2 might be released tomorrow
<JaneW> ogra: there a load of them though like 10k or such like...
<ogra> (i'm testing isos as i speak)
<cbx33> nice, 
<cbx33> I know ther are loads of bugs, I'm trying to help out where I can
<ogra> JaneW, yes, but that also includes whishlist and trivial bugs
<cbx33> but not so many specific edubuntu bugs
<cbx33> hehe
<ogra> the serious amount is way lower (but still to high)
<JaneW> ogra: oic, does it look like serious bugs are manageable?
<ogra> nope
<highvoltage> nope!?
<JaneW> even with the new bug guy?
<ogra> but we have simon now to care for our QA
<ogra> he will kick our butts if we dont get them solved in time ;)
<sivang> hey highvoltage :)
<JaneW> ok, and I meant QA guy not bug guy
<cbx33> oh dear
<highvoltage> ogra: do we have a list of the most critical bugs in edubuntu?
<highvoltage> hi sivang 
<JaneW> although it's much of a muchness ;)
<ogra> he will also assign edubuntu specific bugs to the new edubuntu bugsquad in launchpad instead of assigning them to me personally
<JaneW> highvoltage: I think that should read most critical bugs for edubuntu?
<ogra> so if you want to help bug triaging, subscribe to it 
<JaneW> since we don't seem to have many IN edubuntu - right ogra?
<JaneW> ogra: that's a good idea
<highvoltage> JaneW: right
<ogra> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-bugs/+join
<JaneW> ogra: will anyone else help with those yet, or is that for future expansion?
<ogra> JaneW, there isnt even a single bug assigned to that team yet
<highvoltage> blugtu and i wanted to get testing more formalised, we've been meaning to talk to ogra about that for the longest time
<ogra> and the overall count of edubuntu bugs is ~100
<ogra> err
<highvoltage> but schedule clashes have made that difficult
<ogra> ~10
<sivang> highvoltage: there a rough ubuntu test plans on the wiki, I reckon you could derive upon them and add the additional edubuntu / ltsp bits.
<highvoltage> testing and bug hunting / fixing probably goes hand in hand
<blugtu> yeah ,we need to create a first structure for the testing team
<cbx33> indeed
<highvoltage> sivang: noted
<JaneW> sivang: yes, but I think we have a very basic test plan...
* JaneW looks
<ogra> highvoltage, blugtu, cbx33 helped a lot with testing the beta isos ... he can give some hints ;)
<ogra> JaneW, we only have a copied version of the ubuntu testplan
<cbx33> anything I can do guys
<sivang> highvoltage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing
<ogra> 90% of that stuff doesnt need testing in edubuntu
<ogra> we need to test other bits ...
<cbx33> I'm often testing on non-compliant hardware or older hardware
<JaneW> ogra: right ok we should get that customised then
<sivang> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Long
<ogra> since if the things work in ubuntu and we didnt modify anything, they *must* work in edubuntu as well
<JaneW> cbx33: would you like to do that?
<cbx33> sure
<ogra> in any case we rather need our owm testplans worked out ...
<cbx33> I'll give it a shot
<cbx33> indeed as you stated ogra most of the ubutnu stuff is tested else where
<JaneW> ogra: did you respond to the mail about our CD cover copy? is that signed off now>
<JaneW> ?
<blugtu> sivang: if you want to take a look to edubuntu testing team wiki , here it is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuTestingTeam
<ogra> since it makes most sense to test the edubuntu specifics beyond the ubuntu install we test anyway
<JaneW> cbx33: excellent, thanks
<cbx33> totally agree
<cbx33> infact most of what I have been testing is non-ubu stuff anyway
<JaneW> we actaully need to go through the whole edubuntu wiki and do a springclean and update
<ogra> yes
<cbx33> because that's what I'm eventually oing to use it for
<cbx33> JaneW: agreeed
<ogra> we should do that around release or shortly before
<JaneW> to make sure the info is valid, current and well presented
<cbx33> make sure we get it all done in time
<sivang> ogra: agreed, however if someone edubuntu tests those bits, he can feed bugreports upstream to ubutnu as well :) (regardless of his edubuntu specific bits) Bt I agree this may be out of scope for edu ;-)
<ogra> (what doesnt mean we shouldnt start already indeed ;) )
<sivang> blugtu: looking
<cbx33> ogra: :p
<blugtu> sivang:   ;)
<JaneW> yes, and if you find any of my typos please correct them!
<ogra> sivang, yes, but i'm not intrested in reports about that, since we'll solve them in ubuntu anyway 
<JaneW> we had one of my typos mentioned in a review last time :/
<cbx33> JaneW: oh dear
<cbx33> :p
<sivang> ogra: sure :)
<cbx33> they're so unforgiving 
<ogra> if your thin client bootsplash is wrong, thats something that intrests me, if openoffice is broken, i'm sure it will get solved in ubuntu anyway
* cbx33 bites his tongue
<cbx33> :p
<ogra> ok, so apart from that and still missing artwork/doc stuff edubuntu is fine
<JaneW> ogra: you feeling onfident we are on track and have enough testing so far that we won't have major surprises in the next 5 weeks?
<cbx33> it makes perfect sense that way seeing as there are many more people to fix ubu spefiic bugs
<ogra> i have another topic, not tech related
<ogra> JaneW, yep
<JaneW> cool
<JaneW> ok the tech side is good, well done again!
<JaneW> ogra: you havent seen my whip for a while now :)
<ogra> i was approached independently by several people asking if we could rotate the meeting time 
<JaneW> ogra: next?
<cbx33> I can see why ogra 
<cbx33> I'm lucky my boss actually wants me to attend these meetings
<JaneW> I am not commiting to another 4am meeting :(
<JaneW> ok who is this time really BAD for?
<blugtu> for me its ok
<cbx33> ogra: will the introduction of the CC ease this issue?
<blugtu> but wednesday its not a good day
<cbx33> having more people available to chair the meeting?
<ogra> we said as long as nobody complains we want to stick to that time, but now with edubuntu membership and with community demand, i guess we should have at least two times to jump between
<highvoltage> JaneW: i would like a meeting that takes place out of office hours, so that i can attend it 100%
<JaneW> we have other meetings on Tues and Thurs
<highvoltage> JaneW: just as a question of preference
<JaneW> perhaps if we have 2 diff times which alternate each week, then at worst ppl attend every second meeting?
<ogra> thats my plan
<cbx33> sounds good
<highvoltage> btw, http://distrowatch.com/index.php?dataspan=1
<JaneW> are we sticking to wednesday?
<highvoltage> edubuntu #24 for last 7 days :)
<JaneW> WOW!!!
<ogra> so move the current one a bit earlier and have an alternate time for the evening
<highvoltage> JaneW: seems so
<JaneW> when Dapper releases we are going to storm the charts :))
<ogra> highvoltage, that will drop to nowhere with the new artwork :P
<JaneW> ok 10:00 UTC or earlier?
<JaneW> ogra: :((((
<JaneW> yes we need to discuss that
<ogra> 10:00 UTC sounds fine 
<cbx33> earlier I'd like
<cbx33> ah ok :p
<JaneW> cbx33: what TZ are you?
<JaneW> oh UK
<cbx33> GMT
<cbx33> :p
<blugtu> for me its not good
<blugtu> 10 utc
<ogra> what about 18:00 UTC for the other, is that to late for you JaneW ?
<JaneW> you get up early?
<blugtu> so early
<cbx33> but it's ok
<highvoltage> ogra: we'll make lots of noise about that, I promise. that's bound to peak some interest in edubuntu though ;)
<ogra> highvoltage, hopefully
<blugtu> ogra: 18 utc is perfect
<cbx33> that'd be great
<JaneW> ogra: too late for work day, and too early for night meeting I have to spend 5-8pm (my time with family and kids - sorry)
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> make it 22
<highvoltage> 18:00 utc is great for me too (but for the same reason it's bad for janew :/ )
<ogra> isnt 18:00 UTC 8pm for you ?
<cbx33> listen forget me...I can work around it
<JaneW> 20:00 UTC works for me
<cbx33> 20:00 is great for me
<blugtu> ogra: yes
<highvoltage> yeah, i think we can discuss this some other time in #edubuntu.
<highvoltage> wednesdays 12:00 is working Ok.
<cbx33> yes brilliantly
<JaneW> ogra: I can't really commit before 19:00
<ogra> UTC ?
<freeflying> 20:00 UTC is too early for asian
<JaneW> ok let's debate this on the mailing list of #edubuntu then?
<cbx33> make it the late one then
<ogra> yep
<blugtu> JaneW: OK
<ogra> but it seems we have a tendency for 10:00 UTC and 20:00 UTC, right ? 
<JaneW> I am UTC +2
<JaneW> ogra: yes that would work for me
<ogra> yep, as i am
<blugtu> 20 utc is good
<JaneW> on a wednesday?
<ogra> ok, lets take these for the proposal and see what feedback we get
<ogra> yep
<ogra> lets keep the day
<JaneW> ogra: er that will suck on the day we have the 4am the next morning, but we'll cope :)
<ogra> i usually dont sleep before the 4am meeting, so i'm fine 
<JaneW> yikes
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> the question is if you can sort it
<cbx33> oh dear ogra 
<JaneW> let's try that
<JaneW> so what time next week?
<sivang> blugtu: according to what ogra said, why do yo have there a section about "Installation" ? this is already getting tested part of ubuntu no?
<JaneW> 10:00?
<ogra> JaneW, next week == first meeting in the month 
<cbx33> sivang: no
<JaneW> ogra: yes
<cbx33> ther eare extra bits in the edubuntu installation
<sivang> cbx33: ah I see, ltsp related?
<cbx33> yes
<ogra> we should take care for a third ECC member today as well
<JaneW> ogra: anything else?
<ogra> yes, see above
<blugtu> sivang: yep but we will see for details during a testing meeting
<JaneW> take care?
<ogra> vote, elect
<Riddell> ECC?
<JaneW> we'll discuss the ECC election next week no?
<ogra> or do we want to sort that on the first ECC ?
<sivang> ECC?
<ogra> Riddell, edubuntu CC
<freeflying> Riddell: we'd have KCC :)
<ogra> Riddell, like the KCC ;)
<JaneW> ogra: do we need to discuss the process or what?
<ogra> JaneW, i guess we need to *define* a process first 
<JaneW> ogra: ahh
<JaneW> ogra: mailing list discussion?
<ogra> yep
<cbx33> self nomination, seconded, vote, elect ?
<JaneW> or here and now?
<JaneW> cbx33: yep sounds good
<ogra> sounds very good
<cbx33> :)
<blugtu> i quote cbx33
<JaneW> ogar: think we must follow CC processes as far as possible
<JaneW> ogar! lol
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> JaneW, not for the ECC itself
<ogra> but for the member approval
<JaneW> ogra: yes that's what I meant
<sivang> ogra: special TB/CC per each derivative? :)
* ogra adds a membership candidates section to the new agenda page
<JaneW> ok the new WEB SITE, highvoltage any news on that?
<JaneW> ogra: thanks
<highvoltage> JaneW: been talking to Znarl in PM... he's on it
<JaneW> highvoltage: excellent, got an ETA yet?
<highvoltage> JaneW: i'll ask him quickly
<JaneW> highvoltage: we can let it slip in unnoticed
<highvoltage> JaneW: what do you mean?
<highvoltage> oh, right
<cbx33> hehe :p
<highvoltage> JaneW: i've been in contact with znarl over the weekend and monday, yesterday, and today, so it's unlikely to just slip by unnoticed.
<JaneW> can=can't sorry
<JaneW> highvoltage: cool ok thanks
<JaneW> can't wait
<JaneW> :))
<cbx33> w00t
<highvoltage> pips1 and i will still make lots of changes to it in the future
<JaneW> we are still waiting for final dapper artwork
<ogra> if you want to apply for membership, please add yourself at the bottom of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda
* highvoltage needs to run, wil try to pop in again before end of meeting
<cbx33> cya highvoltage 
<JaneW> I think it's being kept largely under wraps till closer to the release
<JaneW> bye highvoltage 
<cbx33> JaneW: any news on the artwork theme yet?
<blugtu> cya highvoltage
<JaneW> but it looks like our default theme is going to be the chalkboard one
<JaneW> which is dark green
<ogra> which i strongly oppose
* JaneW too for the record
<highvoltage> JaneW: i haven't seen it yet, but if ogra's unhappy with it, then so am i!
* cbx33 again
<JaneW> we are still free to provide nice alternatives for the 'Young' theme
<ogra> yes, i didnt recieve any wallpaper yet
<cbx33> JaneW: but not the default?
<JaneW> cbx33: right
<ogra> but changing to chalkboard will mean to redo *all* themes
<ogra> else the colors bite
<cbx33> it is a real shame that this is being forced upon us
<JaneW> I don't HATE the chalkboard one, but I definitely don't love it, and I don;t think it does anything to help build our brand
<ogra> yes
<cbx33> any chance of a petition?
<JaneW> we can try that yes
<cbx33> or an appeal
<ogra> cbx33, JaneW and i did what we could 
<cbx33> I understand
<cbx33> Wish I could jump on the band wagon too
<JaneW> ogra and I are powerless alone, but if we have community support that may carry more weight
<ogra> so its up to the community i guess
<ogra> which we are not allowed to show the theme 
<JaneW> ogra: are we def not allowed to show it?
<JaneW> I am not clear about that...
<cbx33> what is the issue here?
<ogra> no idea, but its not much different from https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDapperTheme/JonathanCarter/chalk
<JaneW> ogra: hehe clever
<ogra> its a little brighter and has more chalk leftovers on it ... 
<blugtu> i have to go Bye all see you later in #edubuntu
<JaneW> and some smudging...
<JaneW> bye
<cbx33> bye Bluekuja 
<blugtu> cya
<blugtu> ;)
<ogra> ciao Bluekuja 
<blugtu> lol ciao oliver
<cbx33> ogra: it just seems very old fashioned
<JaneW> so like I said before if you have anything better SEND it to us
<ogra> yes
<ogra> yeah
<cbx33> what about swapping it for an interactive whiteboard :p
<JaneW> we can;t complain unless we have alternatives
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> I can do what I can
<cbx33> my wife is a website designer, I can get her to give it a shot if you want
<cbx33> she's pretty good with that kind of thing
<JaneW> cbx33: yes please!
<ogra> we wanted to stay with the current bright and colorful theme, but were told by our coo that it isnt recognized as edubuntu branding yet
<cbx33> oh it will be
<cbx33> if it's the last thing I do :p
<ogra> (which we both disagree about)
<cbx33> It;s a gear theme
<cbx33> *great
<JaneW> cbx33: see this http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/edubuntu/
<cbx33> and brands it well
<cbx33> JaneW: do you have any tips/guidence on what we like/don;t like
<cbx33> a design brief I suppose I could pass on to her
<JaneW> we like edubuntu girl but were hoping for more diversity, since that was an issue last time, so were looking at something like
<cbx33> ok
<JaneW> http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Edubuntu-Children_Of_Edubuntu_1024x768.png
<ogra> the goal was to appear more grown up than in last release
<JaneW> perhaps a bit subtler though
<cbx33> I see what you mean
<cbx33> it's nice, but it looses the brainding i feel
<ogra> we wanted a more neutral wallpaper, but still bright and friendly
<cbx33> ogra: totally agree with you there
<JaneW> ogra: for the default yes, but we still want a fun and naive young option
<cbx33> i think quite a clean background with a definite theme would be nice
<JaneW> edubuntu girls with her new diverse friends?
<ogra> yes, the young one can look like edubuntu girl or the children of edubuntu
<cbx33> hehehe
<cbx33> I'll get her started tonight, she'll do her best I know it
<ogra> :)
<JaneW> ogra use this http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/abstract.jpg
<ogra> JaneW, we had that already :) 
<ogra> was the very first wallpaper i packaged :)
<cbx33> heheh
<JaneW> yes but it wasn't released
<cbx33> any more thoughts on artwork?
<JaneW> and we replaced it with the fun young one
<ogra> it was pre mustard :)
<JaneW> :P
<cbx33> pre-mustard hahaha
<JaneW> cbx33: ogra lves mustard
* cbx33 loves ketchup
<ogra> i dont even eat mustard :)
<ogra> but i like the color :)
* cbx33 pictures handsome ogra in his mustard coloured shirt
<ogra> lol
<cbx33> and mustard coloured leather pants :p
<JaneW> euw
<ogra> nah ...
<cbx33> maybe we culd use a picture of hip hop ogra in his mustard attire for the background
<ogra> they are black i wouldnt wear colored leather
<ogra> haha
<Mithrandir> we could just color rotate the image and they'd be mustard.
<cbx33> right, next?
<ogra> Mithrandir, heh ... "different kinds of mustard" :)
<JaneW> ok the dreaded cookbook
<JaneW> looks like there had been some action this week
<ogra> is anyone of the cookbook team here ? 
<ogra> spacey and pygi are missing
<cbx33> I think I'm a n00bie member
<ogra> HedgeMage is working hard on it it seems
<ogra> she asked for screenshots last night
<ogra> but she can only attend the evening meetings
<JaneW> nice
<JaneW> ok, we'll carry that discussion over
<JaneW> but there's deifinately action on it now
<ogra> an i guess she'd also go for membership
<JaneW> :)
<JaneW> good
<JaneW> ok anything else to discuss?
<ogra> (i hope we'll get actually some candidates for next meeting)
<cbx33> for the meeting?
* cbx33 is a candidate :p
<ogra> yay !
<ogra> ok, then i'd say meeting adjourned :)
<ogra> thanks all
<cbx33> ooh
<cbx33> hang on
<ogra> shoot
<cbx33> I just wanted to mention
<cbx33> I've started a team
<cbx33> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-school-support
<ogra> yes
<cbx33> to try to provide some support material for schools
<ogra> you should announce it on the mailing list 
<ogra> with a little description and advertisement :)
<cbx33> I will do later, wated to get some opinions on it first :p
<ogra> its a great idea :)
<JaneW> cbx33: excellent idea!
<JaneW> I am sure jelkner will be interested
<cbx33> good
<JaneW> please post on the m/l...
<JaneW> should help to get things ging again
<cbx33> well that's all I had to say I think
<cbx33> apart from
<JaneW> thanks
<ogra> highvoltage will be intrested as well :)
<JaneW> so long
<cbx33> if anyone has any general dogsbody things that need doing
<JaneW> and thanks for all the quiche
<ogra> :)
<JaneW> cbx33: I'll keep that in mind :)
<cbx33> I'm ya man :p
<JaneW> write specs for SoC!
<cbx33> hehehe
<cbx33> I'll get the missus working tonight
<sfllaw> ogra: I won't kick you.  Violence solves nothing.
<cbx33> ok
<sfllaw> ogra: Guilt however, I use like a surgeon.
<ogra> sfllaw, you wont move my fat ass without kicking ;)
<JaneW> sfllaw: he likes a good whipping
<Mithrandir> yeah, it's just enjoyment for him.
<JaneW> pref with some alcohol
<JaneW> and a smoke
<ogra> but to be honest, the edubuntu bugcount is marginal 
<Mithrandir> JaneW: in the wounds?
<cbx33> heheh
<JaneW> Mithrandir: yeah
<ogra> eek
<sfllaw> JaneW: Lady, I like your style!
<cbx33> hehehe
<JaneW> *bow*
<ogra> sfllaw, you wont have to kick much :) i think edubuntu has around 10 open bugs 
<ogra> ok, can we close ? 
<cbx33> yes
<JaneW> yes adjourned
<JaneW> early for once :))
<JaneW> back to #edubuntu
<cbx33> back to #edubuntu
<ogra> perfect
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> jinx
<JaneW> snap
<ogra> exactly 60mins
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Apr 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<GNAM> .
<Gloubiboulga> hi !
<freeflying> Gloubiboulga: hi, congrats
<Gloubiboulga> hi freeflying, thanks !
<janimo> hi all
<janimo> congrats to Gauvain!
<Gloubiboulga> thanks janimo !
<Gloubiboulga> Just did my first upload
<janimo> great!
* janimo looks
<freeflying> Gloubiboulga: nice :)
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, sorry, not a Xubuntu one ;)
<janimo> yeah, but there is time for those too )
<janimo> :)
<Gloubiboulga> yes :)
<freeflying> janimo: dose the space of xubuntu enough now?
<janimo> freeflying: enough for what?
<janimo> we have a lot of free space still
<freeflying> janimo: some scim's module 
<janimo> for language support?
<janimo> sure
<janimo> just say which packages
<freeflying> great
<freeflying> scim-pinyin scin-anthy scim-hangul scim-chewing
<janimo> you can post to the list if you wish with the packages and a brief description of why it's needed if not obvious
<janimo> ok, are these on ubuntu/kubuntu already?
<freeflying> no , due to the space issue
<janimo> is it ok if they go to ship and not installed by default?
<nomed> hi all
<janimo> I'd like to keep desktop default install small if possible
<janimo> hi nomed
<Gloubiboulga> hi here nomed 
<freeflying> janimo: if these can be installed defaultly ,CJK users can use it directly
<janimo> ok
<freeflying> janimo:  great!
<janimo> freeflying: so right now by default CJK users cannot type in native language on ubuntu/kubuntu becaus ethese ar enot on the CD?
<janimo> I see there are two chinese one korean and one japanese right? the four packages you mentioned
<freeflying> janimo: ya, guys need download the language support packages
<janimo> freeflying: oh, so what is the improvement in dapper regarding asian languages?
<janimo> working just not fitting on CD? did they not even work ok so far?
<freeflying> janimo: guys needn't configure anymore
<janimo> oh, you needed to tweak X/fontconfig and such?
<freeflying> if they choose download language suppot package , everything is okey
<freeflying> janimo: needn't 
<janimo> besides these which are input methods, is there anything missing right now from xubuntu default?
<janimo> fonts?
<freeflying> the are in desktop seeds
<janimo> ok I'll add these 4 packages to xubuntu-desktop, seems to be 4Mb total
<freeflying> janimo: if you have enough space , include language-pack-gnome-CJK would be better  :)
<janimo> freeflying: there's no other reason for them not being on the ubuntu CD right?
<janimo> like quality issues ?
<freeflying> janimo: no others
<janimo> I guess not if they're in main
<freeflying> no
<janimo> freeflying: language-pack gnome ?
<janimo> that's mostly for gnome apps right?
<janimo> granted abiword is in there too and gaim
<freeflying> janimo: then what for xfce4's i18n ?
<janimo> freeflying: those are small enough (a few 100Kb per language) that are put directly in the base langpacks
<janimo> no more than 300K/lang
<freeflying> janimo: then language-support-CJk
<janimo> so if CHK have translated xfce they're in :)
<janimo> freeflying: sure
<janimo> till now I did not put in anything besides what's in ubuntu
<janimo> to keep the CD easily downloadable
<freeflying> janimo: with these , CJK user needn't download exrta package 
<janimo> but I'll add many langpacks
<freeflying> that's great
<janimo> the top 10 languages' lang support seem to total 120-130 Mb 
<janimo> that fits I think even with OOo on the CD
<freeflying> janimo: CJK is in top 10?
<janimo> well mandarin sure is :)
<janimo> top 1 I think :)
<janimo> but yes I fon;t recall the ubutu classification
<janimo> let me check
<freeflying> janimo: xubuntu has abiword ,why include OOo
<janimo> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/xubuntu-dapper/ship
<janimo> freeflying: OOo is not installed just on the CD. since it fits
<janimo> I got the impression from a bengali translator that, besides OOo no free office is usable in indian langauges
<janimo> is that not the same for CJK?
<freeflying> janimo: as to me , xubuntu shall use light program like goffice instead of OOo
<janimo> freeflying: I agree that it's lighter and that's the default
<janimo> but does abiword support CJK/indic languages?
<freeflying> janimo: not too well
<janimo> so what do chinese users who prefer not to write in English do? :)
<janimo> they need OOo I guess
<freeflying> abiword can write in CJK
<freeflying> but not so fine as OOo dose
<janimo> most popular languages according to ubuntu classification: zh es bn hi ar xh pt ru ja de fr
<janimo> so chinese support will be on CD definitely
<freeflying> nice :)
<janimo> ok what do we have on our agenda today?
<janimo> not on the wiki of course since that's empty :)
<nomed> http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bat/xubuntu/xfce-setting-show.png <--
<Gloubiboulga> nothing for me...
<janimo> nomed :)
<nomed> janimo: we'll need an xubuntu-icons-theme within artwork
<nomed> for sure
<janimo> what theme does tha tuse?
<nomed> there will be really few but needed anyway
<janimo> are those new icons made for xubuntu?
<nomed> yes
<janimo> can they be part of tango itself?
<nomed> not all of them but some
<nomed> no
<janimo> what is the reason for not?
<nomed> the xubuntu specific ones no
<nomed> just generic icons
<janimo> there is a sound icon in tango already and does not look like that (whistle)
<nomed> but i have still to talk to dobay about this
<janimo> what is the situation in current mcs-manager?
<nomed> dobey even
<janimo> where does it fallback to?
<nomed> orrible
<ogra> did you guys see that you are at place 4 on distrowatch ?
<ogra> http://distrowatch.com/index.php?dataspan=1
<janimo> yes, but more techinaclly? :)
<freeflying> janimo: dose xubntu has a network-con tool 
<nomed> i'll write a mail to xfce-devel
<ogra> (for the 7 day stats)
<janimo> ogra, yeah somewhat under our expectations ;)
<Gloubiboulga> ogra, yep :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Apr 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<ogra> janimo, well, its hard to beat ubuntu :)
<janimo> nomed, writing to xfce devel would be really great
<janimo> ogra, ;)
<nomed> janimo: tecnically xfce-mcs-setting is the devil
<janimo> but really I think xubuntu is overhyped :)
* janimo talks like a gentoo zealot
<nomed> it can use icons that don't exist
<nomed> :)
<ogra> janimo, it has buntu in its name, thats ebnough for a hype :)
<janimo> nomed, if upstrem could fix that code to use saner icon names which can be found in tango/icon-spec we'd be further ahead
<janimo> I'd prefer that instead of changing tango to some other theme at this point
<janimo> and possibly incur other breakage
<janimo> or even have poeple not like it
<janimo> ogra, and an X. Never underestimate the power of the letter X in marketing
<nomed> janimo: you do not need to change tango
<janimo> most of the reason why XMl is popular IMHO
<ogra> hehe
<janimo> nomed, so tango will be the fallbak?
<nomed> they need to fix that issue
<janimo> look in xubuntu first then fallback to tango?
<nomed> janimo: back to the beginning :)
<janimo> if so does that not mean less performance?
<nomed> xubuntu icons theme in xubuntu-artwork :)
<nomed> fallback --> tango
<nomed> anyway the dialog icons issue is still there
<nomed> as those icons are hardcoded
<janimo> nomed, ok please write to xfce-devel about this
<nomed> the only solution at the moment is to patch source 
<janimo> I suppose they'd like to fix that too
<janimo> as they seem to use tango
<nomed> me too
<janimo> indeed the mcs manager is out of sync with the rest if I think about it
<nomed> i'll continue a thread that  got 43 answers :)
<janimo> ok :)
<nomed> it was at a good point :)
<janimo> they seemed positive generally right?
<nomed> absolutely yes
<janimo> I am looking at desktop icons in the meantime
<janimo> launchers and removable media
<janimo> nomed, ok thanks.let's see what they say and then go on.
<nomed> i would see even hd .. not removable ..
<janimo> nomed, I mean behaviour
<janimo> they do not automatically show up and things like that
<nomed> uhhh ..
<nomed> k
<janimo> in the meantime talk to dobey if it's possible to get some of these into tango itslef
<nomed> janimo: i'm sure there is a bug on that code
<janimo> makes our job easier long term
<janimo> nomed, yes there is
<nomed> janimo: yes it's possible
<janimo> but brian/benny don't havetoo much time to debug
<nomed> i have already the legacy xml file
<janimo> especially sine it seems to work for them
<nomed> ao it may depend on dbus
<nomed> s/ao/so
<nomed> ahh and tango upstreamer will include that patch as soon as i send it to him
<nomed> i'm just waiting a steady state :)
<janimo> great :)
<janimo> than daniel will upload it to ubuntu and we're better 
<nomed> i think then some artist should play with xubuntu images 
<nomed> they need to be all fixed
<janimo> which images?
<janimo> current artwork?
<nomed> wallpaper, usplash, logo and so on
<janimo> hmm do you not like jmak's work?
<nomed> they 're done but they've even small issues
<janimo> he is the single artist so far who actively participated
<janimo> since the beginning
<nomed> janimo: the usplash could be strongly improved
<janimo> nomed I agree but usplash looks ugly because of small res no?
<nomed> not really
<janimo> although ubuntu usplash is nicer 
<nomed> it's while the artist convert the image to an idexed one
<nomed> it's possible to get a really better resolution
<janimo> aha
<nomed> i've seen images on 16c that were the same as the original one
<janimo> we may need to tell jmak how to actually test the usplash so he sees the result himself
<nomed> that depends on how the artist can use gimp inkscape and such apps
<luzi> the problem with usplash is not resolution, it's the 16 colors!
<nomed> luzi yes
<nomed> but ex
<nomed> the usplash i checked had a color map with a lot of red and pink
<nomed> and i don't see red or pink in xubuntu usplash
<nomed> that means the palette could be optimized
<nomed> and consequentely the image resolution
<nomed> if you have 16 c ..
<nomed> but you use just 4 c from that palette ...
<janimo> nomed, please talk to jozsef or luzi about this and see if you can sort it out
<janimo> and when you're all satisfied I'll upload :)
<nomed> janimo: i wrote a mail 
<janimo> ok
<nomed> but i need they contact me or just replay :)
<nomed> luzi if you're fine with it we can talk a bit at #xubuntu later
<luzi> ok
<nomed> luzi there is a small issue on the official xubuntu logo 
<nomed> have u seen it ..
<nomed> ?
<luzi> what issue?
<nomed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperXubuntuLogo
<nomed> take a look on the left part of that circle :)
<nomed> maybe it's me ... 
<mjg59> It looks like the "head" is offset from the "body"
<luzi> ok, i see it now!
<luzi> i'll fix it.
<nomed> then i was thinking that as xfdesktop supports color background
<janimo> anything else?
<nomed> the wallpaper could just be a trasparent layer ..
<nomed> luzi what do u think ?
<nomed> (as the smoke one )
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: any plans regarding xfce uploads this week?
<nomed> if i' not wrong
<janimo> xfburn. thunar plugins?
<nomed> janimo: there is a new version of verve panel plugin
<janimo> nomed, I know
<sladen> nomed: you get 14 colours, which is good enough for a gradient (hence the kubuntu one is shades of blue and the ubuntu one is shades of brown/gold)
<nomed> but checking it i do not see any reason to upload it
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, xfburn is still broken, and I have no answer on Xfce bugzilla
<janimo> I kind of expect upstream to aply the xfrun dbus patch already so verve makes more sense
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: did you file abug on xfburn?
<nomed> ahh ok
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, yes
<janimo> in what way is broken? I used it to burn some isos this week
<janimo> better than graveman which crashes
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, if it's build from SVN it's ok, buit if I use make dist or make distcheck it FTBFS
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: oh I remember. autotools madness
<Gloubiboulga> yep
<nomed> sladen: i agree
<Gloubiboulga> I'll try to have a look at this
<highvoltage> ogra: are you saying that my old theme looks shitty?
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, screenshooter and media-tag plugins are ready
<ogra> highvoltage i'd never say that !
<highvoltage> sorry, please ignore tha!!!
<nomed> the xubuntu png should just use better the color map 
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: does screenshooter work?
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, yep, but there's an icon issue
<janimo> I ddi not check the last release if they improved on what i ported
<janimo> gnome-screenshot is used no?
<Meyer_> todas
<janimo> that is in most icon themes
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, not in the Xfce one
<Gloubiboulga> I had to install the gnome icons package to see the plugin in the panel
<nomed> Gloubiboulga: there is gnome-screenshoter in Rdent
<Gloubiboulga> nomed, hm... I didn't see it
<janimo> I see s stock-screenshot
<nomed> find /usr/share/icons/Rodent/ | grep shoot
<nomed> applets-screenshooter.png sorry
<nomed> Gloubiboulga: anyway we can add the icon you need i guess
<nomed> with the name that 's on the desktop file
<janimo> hmm I explicitely changed that tpo gnome-screenshot back then
<janimo> I wonder why
<janimo> we shoulduse whatever name is in tango for screenshot
<janimo> that is: nothing
<nomed> janimo: we can even use the name that is desktop file and add it to xubuntu icons theme
<luzi> nomed: the logo issue is fixed.
<nomed> so you do not need to add any patch
<nomed> luzi thanks :)
<luzi> nomed: oops, i just saw that the bar is not right yet...
<Gloubiboulga> I'll check again
<Gloubiboulga> nomed, right, seen it :)
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: when they're ready put them online
<janimo> so I can look at them, and then you can upload :)
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, ok
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, do you want a package for the thunar archive plugin too ?
<janimo> sure
<Gloubiboulga> ok
<janimo> although we need to think where it would fit better
<janimo> single package which depends on fle roller for now?
<janimo> I guess since it does not work yet with xarchiver it cannot be part of thunar or xarchiver
<Gloubiboulga> I don't see what else we could do for the moment
<Gloubiboulga> yes
<janimo> we could sync xarchive from debian as it has cmd line ooptoins and try that
<janimo> anyway if xarchiver is bugged it'd be good to have that as a fallback in universe
<Gloubiboulga> true
<janimo> I'll file a sync requets (should have done it along with xarchiver)
<janimo> arrrgh. two projects trying to make two similar gtk only archivers and none of them being done yet :(
<janimo> so lets' at least have the thunar plugin in and test it with file roller
<Gloubiboulga> ok
<janimo> at least that works\
<janimo> thanks\
<nomed> janimo: the xarchiver devel contacted me few h ago
<janimo> nomed, one good news and a bad news? or soemthing like that ;) ?
<nomed> i was next to convince him to release something in the mean time ..
<janimo> but then he said no ?
<nomed> and he suddenly changed his mind 
<janimo> well there are a few lessons learned for dapper+1 anyway
<nomed> anyway ... exactly
<janimo> not just the xarchiver one but some oethers too
<janimo> 'do not trust upstream'
<janimo> actually one lesson :)
<nomed> he was upset becouse of xarchiver is not in xubuntu yet
<nomed> eheh yep
<janimo> he was upset?
<janimo> well xarchiver is in ubuntu when it's in main
<janimo> which may be tdoay or next week depending on when colin has time to put it in
<janimo> but him being upset?
<janimo> how about making the thing work first? :)
<janimo> is that the original dev (colossus) or the new one (stefan)?
<janimo> I assume colossus. 
<janimo> if so he should just release with a stable gui and cmd line options
<janimo> then wonder about how to optimize for archibves with 250K  files in them which only exist in benchmarks
<nomed> janimo: colossus
<janimo> is he not the main dev now?
<nomed> that's exclty what i told him
<nomed> he "is"
<janimo> it would have been better if he developed alone and released 0.4 in time imho
<janimo> it looked like it was right on track
<nomed> yes
<nomed> i dunno why he forgot he was the devel :)
<nomed> and the other guy should just help him ...
<janimo> probbaly has no time
<janimo> which is understandable
<janimo> but anyweay if someone wants to make our release, he needs to take freeze dates into account
<janimo> at least a bit
<janimo> it's ready when it's ready is a nice quote but won't help in our case
<nomed> janimo: i guess the devels have some script to add that to emails :)
<janimo> :)
<nomed> could we consider the meeting over ?
<luzi> i was going to ask about the translation of the desktop guide
<luzi> i feel it's not quite ready yet.
<janimo> yes I thin kit can be over antie now
<janimo> anytime
<janimo> luzi, ah yes
<janimo> there are no parts which are ready at all?
<janimo> chapters which are more or less like in ubuntu desktop guide
<luzi> the 'guided tour' is nearing completion, the other ones not quite yet.
<janimo> where I assume translations could be copied too ;)
<janimo> luzi, ok whenever you're reday
<luzi> what is the latest it should be ready?
<janimo> we don;t have a date since we did not have a strict schedule as ubuntu
<janimo> so all I can say ASAP :)
<luzi> ok :)
<janimo> but considering that the guide is smaller than ubuntu's
<janimo> and parts can be taken from there by translators do not stay up at night or something
<janimo> only if you like that :)
<janimo> but whenever you feel some parts are ready ping xubuntu and the doc list so people can start on it
<luzi> i like to work at night, actually :o)
<luzi> ok, i'll do that.
<janimo> I expect the guide can be translated on a new language in 2 days by a person no?
<luzi> yeah, i think so.
<janimo> s/on/in/
<janimo> so there is time actually
<janimo> but the sooner it;'s done the sooner users read it and give feedback
<janimo> should I upload the guide as is now?
<janimo> whenever you think there' new upload worthy material ping me
<janimo> either mail or the list
<luzi> ok, i think we'll wait another week or so.
<luzi> janimo, what are we going to do about the 'help' buttons in the gui parts of xubuntu-system-tools?
<janimo> luzi, good question
<luzi> it would be great to have it open the guide in a browser
<janimo> I though about hiding them
<janimo> would that be bad?
<nomed> janimo: exo-open like ?
<janimo> if not whip up a smal dialog
<nomed> if there is html doc i think it could shows up that ..
<nomed> no ?
<janimo> we cannot depend on yelp, and the docs  are not plain html
<nomed> ohhh
<janimo> I think it is yelp markup
<janimo> html would be nice 
<nomed> janimo: that's strange
<nomed> as all the xfce help stuff is in html
<janimo> first I'd like to see xubuntu-system tool sin main though
<nomed> ahh wait
<janimo> got to find a clean way to make multi builds from the g-s-t package
<nomed> xubuntu-system-tool is in yelp markup ?
<janimo> well gnome-system-tools docs are 
<janimo> end in .xml anyway
<nomed> janimo: i guess it could be considered somehow esential
<janimo>  /usr/share/gnome/help/network-admin/es/network-admin.xml
<janimo> the help?
<nomed> ubiquity suggests that 
<nomed> no xubuntu-system-tools
<janimo> well sure it;'s essential
<janimo> but not because of ubi since it only recommends it
<janimo> but so that people can config the network interface without the ocmmand line 
<janimo> mostly, there are other nice tools
<janimo> so if we have them in and no help I am still happy
<nomed> that's sure
<luzi> i think we should a) have it open the correct section of the xubuntu desktop guide in a browser b) if not possible , hide buttons
<nomed> or even hide it if yelp is not installed (b.a ) :)
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: care to answer to the kb layout mail?
<janimo> by JMak
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, ok
<janimo> ok , once we have those tools on the CD I'll do a) or b)
<luzi> great
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Apr 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 May 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : test
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Apr 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 May 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<freeflying-ibook> @schedule Shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 28 Apr 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 Apr 06:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 04 May 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Lure> @schedule Ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 27 Apr 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 Apr 00:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<raphink-pbook> hi there
<raphink-pbook> Riddell: hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-05-02
<wasabi> #schedule Texas
<wasabi> @schedule Texas
<wasabi> Heh neato.
<wasabi> @schedule CDT
<wasabi> Nice broken link.
<_sHaDe> notte a tutti :)
<Seveas> @schedule foo
<Seveas> wasabi, broken link fixed 
<sivang> @schedule Israel
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: 27 Apr 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 Apr 01:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 15:00: Edubuntu | 04 May 05:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 15:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<fabbione> @schedule Denmark
<fabbione> @schedule UTC
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 27 Apr 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00: Kubuntu | 03 May 12:00: Edubuntu | 04 May 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 12:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Apr 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 02 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 May 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<Lure> @schedule Ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 27 Apr 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 Apr 00:00: Kubuntu | 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<GNAM> @schedule Rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 27 Apr 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 Apr 00:00: Kubuntu | 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<GNAM> WOW
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 27 Apr 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Apr 18:00: Kubuntu | 02 May 17:00: Community Council | 03 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 03 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 02 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 May 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<pitti> hi
<Surak> it is time
<fabbione> yo
<mdz> just finishing up lunch here
<mdz> everyone present?
* mvo is here
<Riddell> hi all
<Keybuk> I'm not
<Riddell> someone go and text Keybuk then
<iwj> Yes.
<dholbach> I'm here
<BenC> I was here
<Kamion> here
<mvo> I think Keybuk is missing
<heno> here
<infinity> I jiust dragged myself out of bed to be present, but am still sick as a dog and wishing I weren't. :)
<mdz> seb is on holiday, ogra and mvo were excused
<dholbach> mvo is here :)
<mdz> doko,Mithrandir,Kinnison,JaneW?
<doko> here
<mdz> mvo: hey, you said you couldn't make it!
<mvo> mdz: I'm here, I said "I may not make it" ;)
<mvo> I left early and did not shower *phear*
* mdz stands away from mvo
<dholbach> YAY for mvo, he made it home living from the soccer court! :-)
<mdz> ah, tollef is excused as well
<mdz> busy night
<Keybuk> can I be excused too? :p
<BenC> did you fart? :)
<fabbione> so let's keep it fast
<fabbione> and we can all go back to sleep :)
<mdz> that's everyone we're expecting, then
* BenC waits for it
<Keybuk> BenC: mmm, beans
<mdz> BenC: GO
<BenC> Kernel: Security updates for warty/hoary/breezy. New kernel upload with mostly bug fixes. Update of note, new ipw3945 driver is finally in.
<BenC> and that's all I have to say about that
<mdz> BenC: is ipw3945 fixed now?
<mdz> last I looked it was in-but-broken
<BenC> bugs are back at the top of my todo list
<BenC> broken?
<BenC> I still need to catch up on email, so that's news to me
<infinity> What's broken about it?
<BenC> the only thing I know that's "broken" is that it isn't on the installer
<mdz> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/35215
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 35215 in linux-source-2.6.15 "ipw3945 driver required for functionality on new Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG Mini-PCI Express Adapters" [Normal,In progress]  
<BenC> will check it out
<mdz> ok
<mdz> it would be worthwhile to spend some time with sfllaw talking about kernel bugs
<mdz> help him help you to stay on top of that bug list
<BenC> ok
<sfllaw> BenC: Hi.
<mdz> BenC: feeling OK about the kernel freeze date of May 18?
<mdz> that's to be a hard freeze, final kernel in dapper by then
<mdz> barring Very Bad Things
<BenC> mdz: yep
<pitti> not even security updates?
<BenC> sfllaw: /m me after the meeting, we can get something going
<mdz> the sooner the bug list can be correctly prioritized, the better chance we have of nailing the worst of the bugs in time
<mdz> BenC: thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next?
<dholbach> Bugs: HugDay next week wednesday, slowly catching up with bugs, delighted to see more and more community members helping out, still the bug explosion is terryfying
<dholbach> IconMission: getting more and more icons in, g-p-m upload next, sent (our bugs as) requests to Dave, will poke some more
<dholbach> this week: MOTU mass bug filing about unmet deps, bug triage, random fixing
<dholbach> next week: HUG DAY, more bug fixing, more bug triage
<dholbach> question: Do we have the infrastructure for test-rebuilds already? Is that something I can push in the MOTU direction as well?
<mdz> dholbach: you've been planning the b^Hhug day with sfllaw, yes?
<mdz> in there a specific focus for this one?
<dholbach> mdz: absolutely, jhe'll tell us more about it :)
<dholbach> I didn't want to steal his show :)
<mdz> ok, we'll talk about it during his slot then
<dholbach> :-)
<mdz> dholbach: how is your bug count doing?
<dholbach> i think I have around 700 unread desktop-bugs mails
<mdz> and open desktop bugs?
<Surak> dholbach: I triaged some of them for you this week. hope it helps.
<dholbach> thanks Surak
<iwj> I keep reading `sfllaw' as an abbreviation for Eben Moglen's latest excellent project.
<sfllaw> Well, I'm not Moglen's.  But my parents consider me an excellent project.
<dholbach> mdz: 906 assigned, 2751 subscribed
<iwj> sfllaw: *grin*
<Keybuk> iwj: reminds me of a sneeze
<mdz> dholbach: eek.  approximately how many are serious and/or targeted for dapper?
<dholbach> there are lots of duplicates, lots of old needsinfo and lots of already fixed ones
<seb128> mdz: I think we are good on the dapper milestone list though ;)
<mdz> seb128: you are on holiday!
<seb128> ups
<seb128> right :)
<mdz>  /kick seb128
<seb128> he
<dholbach> 19-39 milestones
<mdz> ok, I'll review those next week
<dholbach> and some have pending patches already
<seb128> I'm just here for the meeting and I'll go back to my holidays, don't worry ;)
* dholbach hugs seb128
<mdz> thanks dholbach
<mdz> doko: next?
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<doko> - openoffice.org: ia32 updates, OOo updated from ooo-build, new translations, two complete build sets uploaded, rosetta is importing the message strings. OOo now on the Xubuntu CD's. Now forwarding Ubuntu changes upstream. TODO's: Kubuntu love, -l10n packages with Rosetta data (hopefully LP doesn't check if the diff.gz is larger than the orig.tar.gz ;)
<doko> - fonts: spent some time with fontconfig configuration for OOo, waiting on feedback from Diziet (the idea is to never match DejaVu and Bitstream when asking for exact metrics for font replacements).
<doko> - printing: gnome-cups-manager updates, hplip updates, new ttf-dejavu with the most important font bug for our gnome guys fixed (touching circles) TODO's: g-c-m could need much more love from a gnome hacker (or a rewrite), upstream seems to be dead.
<doko> - other: various bug fixing, building OOo breezy packages with idle CPU cycles, azureus (weekend work)
* pitti cheers doko for his g-cups-mgr work
<mdz> doko: are both oo.o and firefox happy with their fonts now?
<dholbach> um... nobody answered my question - i guess i'll just talk to infinity and Kinnison about that later on
<doko> mdz: yes, but we could better, see (the idea is to never match DejaVu and Bitstream when asking for exact metrics for font replacements).
<pitti> doko: yes, g-c-m is indeed dead upstream
<mdz> dholbach: what question?
<dholbach> about test rebuilds
<seb128> doko: printing has been moved to GTK for 2.10, I expect them to have stopped any print work on the other API to not have to do the work again 
<seb128> (ie: libgnomeprint(ui) will be deprecated)
<dholbach> apropos fonts: there's a new pango pending (just fyi)
<iwj> doko: Err, I seem to be missing that mail.  Let me check again.
<doko> ok, so just get it somewhat working ...
<mdz> doko: what's your plan regarding Kubuntu?
<doko> iwj: no, my pings during the last 48 hours ;-P
<iwj> doko: Yes, I don't have that mail.
<infinity> dholbach: Sorry, I missed it.  We have test-rebuild magic, and it's being turned on.
<iwj> Oh.  IRC is not a reliable medium !
<mdz> is oo.o-kde in need of love?
<dholbach> infinity: rock on!
<Riddell> on amd64 it is
* dholbach hugs infinity
<doko> mdz: install it and check for the crashes, I never did see them with a KDE installation on top of Gnome
<iwj> doko: Want to chat now (well, when you're done with your report) in #ubuntu-devel or privmsg ?
<mdz> iwj: generally we do expect that if someone is logged into IRC, they will read messages addressed to them there (eventually)
<doko> iwj: sure, after the meeting
<mdz> doko: as far as Dapper, are you relatively satisfied with the printing packages now, after this last batch of updates?
<iwj> mdz: I do try to search for my nick when I arrive in the morning and periodically.
<mdz> dholbach: new bugfix pango, presumably?
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> I just wanted to tell doko beforehand
<doko> mdz: not yet, network printers could be better, naming of printers could be better (but seems to be major work), will address duplicate HP printers in the seleciton
<mdz> doko: are any of those regressions from breezy?
<pitti> ivoks did some nice work wrt network printers
<doko> dholbach: "interesting"
<pitti> I still have to take a look at his patches
<dholbach> doko: it fixes stuff, I know it means work for you.
<pitti> mdz: the one doko mentioned aren't regressions, they have always been that bad IIRC
<doko> pitti: yes
<mdz> ok
<mdz> doko: thanks
<mdz> fabbione: next?
<fabbione> * server-candy: Missing/buggy: apache2 for "central snakeoil SSL setup".
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: should be done. It needs one last global review before going gold.
<fabbione> * last week: almost ill all week.
<fabbione> * next week: X bug squashing.
<pitti> however, with a few easy changes, we can make network printers much nicer
<mdz> fabbione: what's wrong with apache2?
<fabbione> mdz: the same it has been for the last 2 meetings.
<fabbione> mdz: it needs ssl love
<fabbione> and infinity has been ill too
<mdz> pitti: if it's straightforward and low-risk, just do it, otherwise send me details to discuss
<fabbione> so nobody gave him love
<fabbione> did i mention i hate X?
<fabbione> if not. it's official... I hate X :)
<mdz> people who touch apache are dying
<mdz> fabbione: how are you feeling today?
<pitti> mdz: yes, it's easy, just a matter of time
<fabbione> mdz: worked 12 hours more or less.. so i would say good... killed 20 bugs or so
<zell1983> .
<mdz> fabbione: arrange to spend some time talking with sfllaw about X bug triage
<fabbione> mdz: will do
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> heno: next?
<heno>  * accessibility: working with Luke on broken config stuff seen in Live CD beta testing; did a fair bit of work with upsteam on shaping a new Orca and general a11y configuration system. Also wrote some specs for a11y SoC projects.
<heno>  * winfoss: continued work on the kubuntu version; looking to upload on Monday
<heno>  * other: some firefox bug triage
<mdz> heno: are there further accessibility fixes that you intend to land for dapper?
<dholbach> enable brltty again - I have to do that
<dholbach> and we're going to split the gnome-a11y-themes package
<heno> yes, some of the gconf setting don't quite work yet
<dholbach> that's all I can think of for now
<mdz> brltty scares me
<heno> I think it's been submitted though
<dholbach> (re: brltty - we have the memleak patch) and I asked Keybuk to look at udev rules for it
<infinity> Oh, pff, it only ate 1.5GB of RAM in 2 days over here, that's not scary.
<Keybuk> you did, yes
<mdz> I don't think it should run by default
<mdz> only if the accessibility mode is enabled
<mdz> is that possible?
<dholbach> ok, I'll talk with TheMuso to think how we achieve that in an easy way
<mdz> i.e., if the user boots the live cd in accessible mode and does an espresso install, they get it, otherwise no
<Keybuk> dholbach: the main problem with the rules you suggested is that it wouldn't ever stop
<mdz> ok
<mdz> heno: thanks
<mdz> infinity: next?
<dholbach> Keybuk: ok, if you could explain after the meeting, that'd be nice
<infinity> last week: was sick (still am) most of the week, but managed to keep on top of build failures, uploading some fixes, pinging maintainers about others, otherwise taking orange juice inteavenously and following doctor's orders (mostly)
<infinity> next week: nail the samba segv I introduced in my last upload, attack some pending security updates, then hit my bug list and reduce it by half (or more), time permitting.
<mdz> infinity: what's the doc's prognosis?
<infinity> I'm not dying, I just need to sleep and back away from the computer for a bit.  Upcoming weekend should solve that for good, I suspect.
<mdz> ok, rest up
<mdz> infinity: thanks
<mdz> iwj: next?
<iwj> Firefox: 1.5.0.2 finally uploaded following various faff.
<iwj> Evince vs firefox fonts problem: you'll have seen my uploads, perhaps, after moderately extensive delving into fontconfig and pango.  Anyone got any more feedback about this ?  The current situation is still not 100% correct but it gives the right outcome in most of the key cases AFAICT.
<iwj> Firefox: pango slowness: have `fix' script, just installing Dapper in various languages to test it.  I'm really looking forward to doing an install in Japanese or Chinese :-/.
<iwj> Firefox: other bugfixes will go in RSN, FYI.  If you have favourite bugs you want me to fix, please ping me about them and I'll put them on my list.  The Malone bug pile for Firefox is still rather unmanageable despite the very helpful triage assistance I'm getting.
<iwj> Ghostscript bugs: that'll be next weeks' task.
<iwj> AutomatedTesting,DeveloperDocumentation: on hold because I want to fix all the bugs I'm going to as soon as possible.
<iwj> UK public holiday this coming Monday.
<mdz> iwj: what's the basic issue with evince vs. firefox?
<mdz> they're both behaving fairly sanely for me at the moment
<iwj> This is the thing I invented anymetrics=1 for.
<mdz> ok, right
<iwj> Indeed, because of my fix :-).
<mdz> so printing vs. screen fonts
<iwj> Exactly.
<iwj> That's what doko wants to talk to me about, too.
<melon__> hp omnibook xe4500 hibernation/suspend makes display black. is there any link how to fix this (I've googled around with no luck) 
<mdz> are there any test cases folks might be able to try?
<iwj> mdz: That's tricky.
<mdz> melon__: there's a meeting in progresss here (which is the purpose of this channel, not bug reports)
<pitti> melon__: #ubuntu, please, we are in a meeting
<mdz> melon__: try #ubuntu-laptop
<iwj> The best answer is to do all the weird things that only you do, and if they go wrong in a fonty way, get in touch.
<iwj> I seem to have started to `understand' how fontconfig `works' so I might be able to help with other kinds of things, although it's a bit of a swamp really.
<melon__> ok, thank you (sorry for interrupting)
<mdz> I think most of us print things so rarely that we don't notice these things so much
<iwj> mdz: Right, but previews count as printing for these purposes (well, for anymetrics=1, anyway, though of course gs and evince might use different fonts for the same file ...)
<mdz> iwj: it would be worthwhile to get in touch with epiphany upstream regarding that list of languages and how they chose it; seb128 may be able to help with that (AFTER his holiday)
<iwj> OK.
<iwj> I was going to deploy it with that list and see who complained.
<iwj> Omissions will be quite obvious I imagine.
<mdz> iwj: as you go through gs bugs, it's probably a good idea to subscribe ubuntu-printing to them, to group them with the other printing bugs
<iwj> The alternative would be a whitelist instead of a blacklist - ie list languages we know pangoless is safe with.
<seb128> iwj: epiphany upstream are on #epiphany (irc.gnome.org), you probably want to speak to chpe
<iwj> mdz: Willdo.
<iwj> seb128: Noted.
<mdz> iwj: thanks
<mdz> Kamion: next?
<seb128> (other way I'll be available after my holidays as pointed by mdz :p)
<Kamion> this-week: Renamed espresso to ubiquity, hopefully keeping most people relatively happy. Post-beta madness, fixing up lots of ubiquity bugs, especially partitioner-eats-your-disk; beta 2 nearly done.
<Kamion> next-week: High-priority ubiquity bugs (more partitioner crashes, mostly); go through Malone hoovering up patches I need to apply.
<Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: I'd like to discuss deferring the remaining specced changes to the partitioner. Modulo crashes, the partitioner we have now at least structurally works, and I'm loath to mess around with its structure much more before release.
<mdz> Kamion: the rename seems to have gone rather quietly; is that a fair impression?
<Kamion> mdz: yep
<mdz> Kamion: how are you feeling about the ubiquity bug list?
<Kamion> the Germans complain they can't spell it mind
<Kamion> mdz: holding steady around 70 bugs, maybe 10-20 serious; I think I can get through the worst of them in the next two weeks
<pitti> we'll learn it :)
<mdz> it was a bit of a fright to learn that we had such a serious bug in beta that none of us saw
<iwj> How many eats-your-disk bugs were there ?
<Kamion> yes, definitely; I knew about the general bug but not its implications
<Kamion> iwj: just one, AFAIK
<Kamion> well, one root cause
<iwj> Oh, right.  Not _so_ bad then (unless it was your disk).
<Surak> Kamion: can I transfer all bugs assigned to espresso to ubiquity? there were some this week.
<Surak> from espresso to ubiquity, i mean
<Riddell> Kamion: beta 2 out tonight?
<Kamion> Surak: I already did so for nearly all of them; there's one left which I'll do now
<Kamion> Surak: feel free to reassign any further ones that arrive
<mdz> Kamion: of the 70, you've mostly looked at all of them regarding their severity?
<Kamion> mdz: I've looked at all the bugs, but my mental notion of their severity isn't necessarily reflected in Malone; I'll try to rectify that ASAP
<mdz> ok
<mdz> Kamion, meet sfllaw ;-)
<Kamion> :-)
<sfllaw> Kamion: We've already met.
<sfllaw> Kamion: And please fix them.  It will be good for all of us.  :)
<mdz> thanks
<Kamion> the quality of bugs since I added that crash handler has risen dramatically, too, so I have medium-to-high hopes
<mdz> Keybuk: next?
<Keybuk> * udev: in good shape, not aware of any open bugs
<Keybuk> * initscripts: NFS mounting race condition, just got to move it to a network event, but want to make sure I don't break /usr as NFS; have plan
<Keybuk> * network-manager: been starting to go down the bug list and have tracked down a few of them, and getting the rest sent upstream
<Keybuk> * misc: been going through all the packages checking for /var/run and /var/lock issues and also looked for packages still using /etc/hotplug or shipping udev rules wrong, etc.
<Keybuk> * plans: start going through bugs in other packages looking for things I can fix
* fabbione suggests X to Keybuk 
<Keybuk> "X" ?
<fabbione> xorg
<mdz> Keybuk: I was looking at that ifupdown "Network is down" bug the other day, the one with all the unrelated (and probably obsolete) reports of network interfaces not being brought up
* Keybuk knows so little about X, I'm not sure I'd be any help
<mdz> Keybuk: is there an issue there?
<Keybuk> mdz: got a bug# to refresh me
<Keybuk> there isn't one on ifupdown
<mdz> I think it was on n-m or someplace else silly
<Keybuk> I fixed the one that was about network interfaces not being brought up
<mdz> it struck me as a tangled web that needed unweaving
<Keybuk> which was also the same bug that caused it to hang on boot at "Configuring network interfaces" sometimes
<Keybuk> I may have missed a dup or two of that
<Keybuk> it was evil
<doko> there was one nasty debhelper bug ignoring errors when servies are restarted on upgrade (means reupload of these packages is needed)
<Keybuk> a "minor" udev change we snuck in from upstream just before I froze it (so months ago) meant that ifup was called with the original name of an interface, not its renamed name
<mdz> this one looked different, though; it had lots of unrelated reports but the original issue wasn't clearly addressed
<Keybuk> hmm, I'll have to find that one -- if you come across it again, subscribe me to it and ping me on it
<mdz> Keybuk: bug 21563
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 21563 in dhcp3 dhcp3-client "Network doesn't come up after boot" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/21563
<mdz> you're already subscribed and have commented much
<Keybuk> oh, *that* one
<mdz> but I think it got lost in a sea of unrelated stuff
<Keybuk> yeah, that one we have *no* clue about
<Keybuk> we've had that since, oh, warty I think
<mdz> er, no, that's not the one I meant
<Keybuk> I certainly came across it in breezy
<Keybuk> oh
<mdz> ah
<mdz> bug 19740
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 19740 in dhcp3 dhcp3-client "unexplained failure to obtain DHCP address" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/19740
* pitti suggests to go on, we are a bit short in time
<mdz> SIOCSIFFLAGS: Permission denied
<mdz> ...
<mdz> receive_packet failed on eth0: Network is down
<mdz> ...
<mdz> send_packet: Network is down
<mdz> that one
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, that's still the general thought of bug
<mdz> pitti: yes, but we're also short on people, so it will go quickly :-)
<Keybuk> I frequently blame pitti <g>
<pitti> mdz: hm, right; so, sorry :)
<mdz> Keybuk: let's chat about it another time
<Keybuk> gah, we still have to confirm we want to subscribe
<doko> yeah, but pitti doesn't belong to the short people
<mdz> saw the NFS mount thing, that definitely needs addressing for the release (set the milestone if it isn't already)
<mdz> Keybuk: thanks
<mdz> Kinnison: next?
<pitti> he's alive again?
<Keybuk> Kinnison is very dead
<pitti> yesterday he was still ill
<Keybuk> <rjek> Poor Kinni.  He's got a chest infection.  Been given the largest possible dose of Amoxicillin, and he has to take 6 steriods a day for a week.
<mdz> oh, did I miss an email on that?
* mvo wonders if the plague has come back
<zul> probably
<mdz> I don't see a mail, hrm
<mdz> Mithrandir: on to you, then
<mdz> er
<mdz> except that he's not here
<mdz> mvo: you're up
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - uploaded the backported update-manager to breezy-updates
<mvo> - dist-upgrade testing (amd64, i386)
<mvo> - dist-upgrade tool work
<mvo> - bug triage/reporting/fixing
<mvo> - lots of cd testing
<mvo> - some apt work (merging/bugs overview/proxy issues)
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> - more bugfixing/bug triage
<mvo> - some improvments to the upgrade tool (sources.list rewriting)
<mvo> Blocked:
<mvo> - sysadmin setup for the auto-dist-upgrade testing
<mdz> mvo: have there been any issues arising from the upgrade testing where we might want to customize the upgrade process further?
<mvo> mdz: yes, the sources.list rewriting needs some further love, I improved the mirror detection and will offer a fallback when no official sources was detected
<mvo> I use the mirror from wiki.ubuntu.com/Archive now
<mvo> to detect if its a official ubuntu source
<mdz> mvo: but no other obsolete packages to remove, etc.?
<mdz> mvo: and is the metapackage fixup code working well?
<mvo> mdz: it seems to be, the reports are encouraging
<mvo> when it fails it seems to fail because of sources.list rewriting problems
<mvo> and of course during post-inst failures
<mdz> mvo: the auto-dist-upgrade testing just needs a chroot, right?
<Keybuk> (interrupts) oh, and I hopefully solved the complaints about network intefaces getting odd names after upgrade -- iftab is "fixed" by the udev postinst (in a nice way)
<mvo> I found some amd64 specific problems recently I looked more into this
<mvo> can't test ppc myself
<mvo> mdz: yes, just a chroot and pulling a special package
<mdz> mvo: ping admins and let them know you are blocked; it should be quick to set up
<pitti> mvo: ping me for ppc stuff
<fabbione> mvo: and the demotion thingy :)
<fabbione> mvo: remind me tomorrow to test ppc
<mdz> Keybuk: iirc it was something like "turns wrong iftabs into correct iftabs" ;-)
<pitti> mvo: oh, is there work in progress for dealing with packages that become unsupported after dist-upgrade?
<mvo> fabbione: yeah, fabbione came up with the problem that packages moved from main to universe during the breezy->dapper will be considerd obsolete if the user only has main in his sources.list
<mdz> oh
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah  (mvo just reminded me -- I was going to put it in the update manager, but decided postinst was better)
<mdz> Kamion: I think we're due for an anastacia session
* Kamion nods
<mvo> pitti: that is a special case of fabbiones problem, I think we can solve it with the same solution
<Kamion> I've been doing bits, but nothing concentrated
<Kamion> Scott has done a few bits too
<Keybuk> yeah, I've got the hang of this ftp stuff
<mdz> Keybuk: let's spend some quality time with anastacia
<Keybuk> when would you like to do that?
<mvo> pitti: fabbione had the idea to include a list of all demotinons so that we can tell the user about them
<mdz> it should be close to empty at this point, modulo some remaining xubuntu bits
<Kamion> Keybuk: PLAGIARISM
<pitti> mvo: right
<mdz> Keybuk: after the meeting, if you're staying up
<Keybuk> sure
<mdz> mvo: anything alarming on the apt bug list?
<Keybuk> Kamion: who am I plagiodfiodasjfdjksf(can't spell that one)ising?
<mvo> mdz: BADSIG errors from transparent/bad proxies
<mvo> that seems to be the only issue
<mvo> we are plagued by this since some time :/
<mdz> what can we do?
<Kamion> Keybuk: http://xanna.livejournal.com/51821.html
<mvo> stub is helping by testing my various patches
<Keybuk> Kamion: ahh, wrong window? :) 
<mvo> mdz: not sure, I'm pretty sure we are rfc compliant and the proxy is not
<mdz> mvo: would it help at all to try to disable caching with cache-control entirely?
<Keybuk> Kamion: I'll paste that to Jen :p
<mvo> but that dosn't help a lot
<mvo> mdz: interesstingly not, stub has to run apt-get update twice (he is behing a very aggressive proxy apparently)
<Kamion> Keybuk: oh, whoops, yeah
<mdz> hmm, ok
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<mvo> mdz: he runs with -o Acquire::http::No-Cache=true
<mdz> ogra is out, but sent this:
<mdz> * general: beta preparation, manpages for ltsp, further work on the
<mdz> edubuntu getting started guide, still no final artwork yet (and a very
<mdz> unhappy community about the chalkboard decision :( ), beta2 preparation
<mdz> and tests, bug triage (dhcp, ltsp, edubuntu bugs), lots of community
<mdz> work, preparing the new edubuntu council
<mdz> * next-week: bughunt. more doc work, more bug triage, hopefully final
<mdz> artwork for edubuntu, first edubuntu council meeting, writing the tech
<mdz> chapters for the cookbook, checking the new edubuntu testplans with the
<mdz> new edubuntu test team.
<mdz> pitti: next?
<pitti> reducing-duplication: kdegraphics dropped imlib b-dep, which gets us rid of imlib (yay) and another gtk+1.2 r-dep. no other progress; php5-sqlite transition to sqlite3 still needs to happen for dapper
<pitti> general stuff done in the past two week:
<pitti>  * security updates: firefox, mozilla, mysql, ruby, cyrus-sasl; coordinated kernel update with BenC, will release probably tomorrow
<pitti>  * bug triage and bug fixing
<pitti>  * much cupsys love
<pitti>  * new language packs
<pitti>  * CD testing
<pitti>  * cleaned up main inclusion queue a fair bit
<pitti> plan for next week:
<pitti>  * celebrate EOL of Warty :)
<pitti>  * tbird security update
<pitti>  * torture infinity with PHP security update
<pitti>  * bugs, bugs, bugs
<mdz> pitti: is gtk1.2->universe a possibility for dapper?
<pitti> mdz: nontrivial
* mvo hugs pitti for EOL of warty
<pitti> mdz: libdv and some odbc stuff still need it
<infinity> php5-sqlite requires me to do a couple of sync from Debian, and a bit of futzing, but it'll be trivial.
<infinity> s/sync/syncs/
<pitti> mdz: libdv, libiodbc2, smpeg, xmms
<pitti> xmms can be demoted, the rest is some serious work
<mdz> ok, best to leave it for now, then
<doko> pitti: can't the odbc stuff be splitted into two sources?
<mdz> pitti: is the new cups working out ok?  any testing feedback?
<pitti> mdz: yes, it didn't break the world at least
<mdz> pitti: gee, that's very encouraging to hear post-beta ;-)
<pitti> mdz: I got a fair number of new bug reports, but I don't know whether they already applied to earlier versions
<mdz> pitti: language packs seem to be looking good according to the stats
<pitti> mdz: I think I can do something about some bugs, when I find some time after tbird, and such
<mdz> I wonder how we are doing with translations in the default desktop
<pitti> mdz: indeed; I'm working with carlos for more convergence
<pitti> oh, I need to fix some packages for building POTs; help would greatly be appreciated
<mdz> pitti: it's a short list, yes?
<pitti> mdz: 15ish
<janimo> pitti, the 6 xfce ones I'll do asap
<mdz> mvo: can you help with the .pot fixes?
<pitti> great
<mvo> mdz: sure
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<pitti> coping with the rest will be relatively easy, and it's nonintrusive, so I'll defer it a bit
<mdz> thanks pitti
<mdz> Riddell: next?
<Riddell> done: bugfixes, kde ubiquity, beta 1 & 2 testing, new koffice
<Riddell> todo: kde ubiquity, bugfixes, make sure i18n works for kubuntu-docs
<Riddell> good news: KDE now largely working with CUPS 1.2, thanks to mh21
<pitti> I urgently need to find time to look into some dhcp bugs
<mvo> pitti: let talk about it after the meeting (or tomorrow morning)
<mdz> Kamion,Riddell: how is kde ubiquity looking?
<pitti> Riddell: I'll tell mh21 the great news :)
<Riddell> mdz: working well for me
<Riddell> mdz: still a number of things to fix, but certainly on target
<mdz> Riddell: there are a lot of untriaged kubuntu bugs around
<Riddell> qstring/unicode is a bit of a mystery I need to solve
<mdz> Riddell: I suggest a session with sfllaw to see how he can help
<Riddell> mdz: about 25 marked as major
<mdz> Riddell: there seem to be a lot which haven't been looked at yet, so it's hard to say how many serious ones there could be
<Riddell> main problem app is knetworkconf which Lure has been doing some fixes for
<Kamion> mdz: I fixed up a fair few over the last couple of days, since I was getting the bugs anyway and wanted to have a clue about them
<Kamion> Riddell: I think I've mostly got a handle on the qstring/unicode thing now - I don't really like how pyqt does it but I think at least I know how to handle it now
<Riddell> mdz: the serious ones should have a priority set
<mdz> Riddell: you know that priority is going away, right?  better to use severity (since that's usually more meaningful anyway)
<Riddell> or do I mean severity?  The one with Major/Critial/Wishlist etc
<mdz> yes, severity :-)
<mdz> thanks Riddell
<mdz> seb128: YOU ARE ON HOLIDAY
<pitti> you scared him
<mdz> rightly so
<doko> we should have kicked him ;)
<mdz> so last order of business, everyone welcome sfllaw
<Riddell> hi sfllaw 
<sfllaw> Hi everybody!
* dholbach pets his seb128 plush figure.
<zul> hi simon
<pitti> sfllaw: welcome
<doko> sfllaw: welcone
<doko> s/n/m/
<sfllaw> Did:
<sfllaw> - Bug triage
<sfllaw> - Talking to #ubuntu-bugs volunteers
<sfllaw> - Wiki editing
<sfllaw> - Learning about my surroundings.
<sfllaw> Will do:
<sfllaw> - More of the above
<Kamion> hello QA man extraordinaire
<sfllaw> - Next week, we'll be having a HUG day that concentrates on crasher bugs.  We're planning on using GDB and valgrind.
<mvo> hello sfllaw
<sfllaw> Please feel free to chat with me about how our new QA department can make life easier for you.  I can't promise miracles, but I'll do my best.
<sfllaw> Also, I also want to thank dholbach, who's done a great job looking out for me, as I bumble around.
<Keybuk> sfllaw: welcome
<dholbach> sfllaw: It was a pleasure. It's good to know you're around.
<pitti> Kamion: can you please give a quick status about new breezy images? still blocked by some soyuz issue?
<ajmitch> sfllaw: welcome :)
<mdz> simon will be working through our unconfirmed bugs and culling duplicates, set severities, and otherwise separating the wheat from the chaff
<sfllaw> dholbach: Was?  I'm still going to bother you for help.
<dholbach> sfllaw: Don't worry.
<sfllaw> mdz: Yup.  That's the plan.
<sfllaw> I do a little bit of verification on Unconfirmed bugs to see if I can quickly confirm them, or find them in other BTSes.
<Kamion> pitti: need to check up with cprov/Kinnison whether it can deal with d-i uploads to pockets now; after that I plan to bodge katie until she submits
<mdz> and we're out of time
<sfllaw> We have a lot of unconfirmed bugs right now, so I can't dig too deeply.
<mdz> so, thanks everyone
<dholbach> thanks
<mdz> and good mostly-evening
<Kamion> pitti: I've stuck it in my to-do file for after beta2
<pitti> thank you
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<Keybuk> mdz: let me just take a quick break and grab a cup of tea, and we can do anastacia
<Kamion> also, in case anyone else is slacking like me, performance review input is due in by tomorrow
<Kamion> (two left ...)
<mdz> Keybuk: I need workrave anyway
<Keybuk> worryingly, I've not heard from anyone I asked to do mine
<Kamion> Keybuk: I've done yours ...
<iwj> TTFN everyone, and hello sfllaw :-).
<janimo> mdz, we can have the gnumeric talk tomorrow then? if you workrave
<mdz> janimo: I'll be back in ~10m; if that's too long, we can talk tomorrow
<janimo> mdz, wait
<janimo> I'll wait
<mdz> Keybuk: usually they just quietly do them and don't tell you
<infinity> Keybuk: If you go to your "rate yourself" link, there's a link there to check and see who has and hasn't rated you.
<infinity> Keybuk: So you can breathe more easily.
<pitti> Keybuk: I did yours and told you in IRC :)
<doko> is the deadline 0:00 UTC or 24:00 UTC?
<infinity> How can both of those exist?
<sfllaw> Quantum  time!
<pitti> infinitesimaly
<infinity> Surely you mean 00:00 or 23:59? :)
<infinity> pitti: I don't want to hear explanations from mathemeticians.  If I wanted one of those, I'd ask myself.
<infinity> sfllaw: Same argument, but s/mathemeticians/sarcastic Canadians/
<pitti> ok, then let's reconsider the physical approach
<heno> infinity: think of the clock as a coordinate system with singularities, like the globe
<sfllaw> infinity: I'm also a mathematican!
<heno> the north pole can be described in several ways
<infinity> sfllaw: Yes, but sarcasm always takes a more important role, right? :)
<sfllaw> infinity: It couldn't be!
<Keybuk> heno: Consider the Lilly
<doko> ok, but what is it,  00:00 or 23:59?
<Kamion> doko: I was imagining "when silbs wakes up" personally
<doko> Kamion: oops, I did get a mail from her at 7:00 UTC this morning
<heno> as in 'on my desk in the morning', makes sense
<infinity> Interesting side note to this conversation... Apparently, the Japanese just count time until they fall asleep... So a late night movie on TV at 1am, is from 25:00 to 27:00.
* infinity just dicovered this recently and was very confused.
<Kamion> the daylight savings overlap hour there must be a barrel of laughs
<heno> infinity: makes perfect sense. Coordinate systems can overlap
<heno> hours used to vary in length so that there were always 12 day and night hours
<infinity> heno: Oh, it does make sense, but it confused my poor Canadian brain for a few seconds when reading a Japanese TV guide.
<heno> which made clock making difficult initially ...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Apr 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 02 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 May 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 May 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<Red-Sox> I'm Jonny, I'll just be watching, giving no input
<Red-Sox> ...If that's okay
<Kamion> no need to mention that, anyone's free to lurk
<Red-Sox> Okay, cool
<Kamion> but don't expect this channel to be very interesting between meetings (see topic)
<Red-Sox> ...I know next to nothing about kubuntu... or linux for that matter
<Red-Sox> Meeting in 10 minutes, right?
<ajmitch> yes
<Red-Sox> Cool
<raphink> hi
<Tonio_> hi
<Lure> hi
<OdyX> hi raphink & Tonio_
<Riddell> evening all
<ajmitch> morning 
<ajmitch> just in time, Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> hey ajmitch 
<Hobbsee> i'm alwyas just in time...or late...
<Hobbsee> someone got a bucket of water?
<ajmitch> sure
<OdyX> only beer here.
<Riddell> 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3m,2,1
* Lure throws some water at Hobbsee
* Hobbsee screams, and wakes up a little
<Hobbsee> darn cold...water!
<raphink> hi aj
<Hobbsee> er, where's the log thingo?
<raphink> hi ajmitch
<Lure> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Hobbsee> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> gug78o
<Hobbsee> oh yes
<Hobbsee> thta
<ajmitch> raphink: hello
<Riddell> ahem
<raphink> hi Hobbsee
<Riddell> anyone volunteeting to take minutes?
* Riddell eyes up toma 
<Tonio_> ;)
* Hobbsee waves to raphink and the others
<Ju> Hi all !
* Tonio_ takes a coffee, sits and wait carefully
<toma> Riddell: its too late for me, i'll go to bed in a minute
<Tonio_> Riddell: I will take minutes if you want
* OdyX takes Tonio_'s coffee.
<Riddell> ok, sleep tight toma 
<Tonio_> nite toma
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-05-03
<uniq> to late for me to, work in less than 7 hours.. i'll try to read the backlog though :)
<raphink> good night toma
<Riddell> so, we should start
<Riddell> Hobbsee: you have the first item
<Hobbsee> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdebase/+bug/38573
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 38573 in kdebase "kubuntu_36_hide_kjobviewer_menu_entry.diff should be dropped" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  
<raphink> let's
<Hobbsee> this is a wishlist - do we want to accept it?  it probably makes sense
<Riddell> I tt
<Riddell> ] 
<Riddell> sorry
<Riddell> rationale for removng it was that when there's something printing you get it in the systray
<Riddell> so I don't see why it's needed
<Lure> I would agree that the on is SysSetting->Printers is a bit hidden one...
<OdyX> 4 clics...
<raphink> same
<raphink> + there's the print applet
<raphink> that can be added to the bar
<Lure> Riddell: right, so if my jobs are stuck it will be there
<Hobbsee> people still cant find the theming section of system settings - i doubt that many end up finding the printer module too
<Hobbsee> sorry, still rather asleep here...start, brain, start!
<Riddell> Hobbsee: themeing isn't there at all, printing is there
<freeflying> Riddell: some guys need themeing select from system settings
<Lure> Hobbsee: I can agree with theme/appereance and stuff (many modules), but Printers is only one
<Hobbsee> i guess it's a submenu away.  i actually meant colours
<Riddell> is there a use case 
<yuriy> I think if anybody needs kjobviewer when they're not printing they can be bothered to go to system settings, there's no need to clutter up the menu with it.
<Riddell> for when you need it?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yes, in the bug report
<Riddell> hmm, printing from openoffice
<yuriy> actually, i guess the bug report brings up good points
<Riddell> hmm
<uniq> i'm for removing the diff.
<Riddell> I'm still against it but I'm happy for it to go to a poll
<Lure> Riddell: true - I also notice that Firefox does not trigger job viewer tray...
<Riddell> Lure: bah, use konqueror :)
<Lure> Riddell: tried twice, still no go... but planning again... ;-)
<Riddell> -1 from me
<Riddell> go, vote..
<uniq> +1
<claydoh> -1
<Tonio_> -1
<Hobbsee> +1 - i know i keep looking up the printer module often enough
<Lure> +1
<Riddell> Hobbsee: why do you end up looking it up?
<OdyX> 0
<Tonio_> Riddell: there is another possibility
<Tonio_> there is a submenu activable
<Riddell> yuck, submenu's are evil
<Tonio_> gives the same rederring than the "printers" submenu in windows
<Hobbsee> Riddell: because it's hard to hear if the printer is actually finished, and im' often not sure where the printer has failed - ie, my computer, or between my computer and the printer.
<Tonio_> anyone already tested this ?
<uniq> I'll have to go to bed. nite kubuntuers.
<OdyX> nite uniq
<OdyX> Tonio_: howto ?
<Tonio_> OdyX: showing a screenshot, plz wait ;)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: anyway, do we want to discuss the other issues, then come back to this, as people have had a bit of time to think?  it's already a quarter thru the meeting :P
<Hobbsee> morning kwwii 
<Riddell> we could let kwwii decide
<kwwii> hi Hobbsee
<Riddell> kwwii: let us know what you decide on https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdebase/+bug/38573
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 38573 in kdebase "kubuntu_36_hide_kjobviewer_menu_entry.diff should be dropped" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  
<Riddell> ok, Tonio_, your item
<Tonio_> http://planetemu.net/temp/capture8.png
<Tonio_> Riddell: here it is
<Tonio_> just to finish on this :)
<Riddell> Tonio_: ug, a top level menu
<Tonio_> Riddell: that's better to me that a kjobviewer entry in system or  something......... but well, let's go next item :)
<OdyX> Tonio_: that's "to think about"...
<Riddell> Tonio_: bogofilter..
<yuriy> Tonio_: could that menu go within System?
<saaida> what was the url for installing firefox 1.5 ? 
<Tonio_> yes, so bogofilter has been removed
<Tonio_> as our major aim for kubuntu is usability, I think that's an issue
<Tonio_> it is not quite easy for a newbie to guess what are the compatibles antispam filters
<Riddell> it looks like it's in main
<Hobbsee> saaida: this is not a support channel.  see #kubuntu
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes, it was shiped by default with dapper, but isn't anymore
<Riddell> Tonio_: any idea what's changed that it's not brought in now?
<kwwii> Riddell: as someone who prints a lot, I find it nice to be able to open it easily...case 3 is exactly right - often things do not function as expected but you don't know that until 15min later (and you closed the pop-up cause you thought it would work)
<Tonio_> Riddell: I didn't check deps in detail..... I will have to
<Tonio_> I have to compare breezy to dapper on that point
<OdyX> does bogofilter have any issues/bad comportements ?
<Riddell> 3465kB, I'd say we afford that
<Tonio_> Riddell: big advantage with bogofilter is that it is pretty light ressources compared to spamassassin
* OdyX uses both though.
<Riddell> Tonio_: does it need any setting up or does kmail use it automatically?
<Tonio_> OdyX: bogofilter works nicelly as long as you tag correctly your mails
<Riddell> hmm, you have to tag your e-mails?
<Tonio_> Riddell: when you use kmail, simply use the antispam configuration assistant, and everything is automatic
<Tonio_> as long as it is installed of course
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes it is bayes based, so you have to tag to build black and white lists
<Tonio_> same way than spamassassin anyway
<Riddell> Tonio_: how do you tag?  is there a menu item that becomes available when you setup spam?
<Tonio_> once you taggued a few mails, it starts making good job to me, about 95% spams detected
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes, you have buttons added to the interface automatically by the assistant
<OdyX> Riddell: menu on right-clicks on mails or top-bar button.
<Riddell> Tonio_: sounds great, I'll add it to the seeds
<Tonio_> everything is really simple to configure and use, as long as you have a tool preinstalled
<Tonio_> Riddell: thanks :)
<Lure> great
<Riddell> ok, is Nirvana here?
<Lure> Riddell: does not look like...
<Riddell> guess not
<Riddell> mvo has some plans to add screenshots to gnome-app-install in dapper+1
<Riddell> which may be done through launchpad
<Riddell> so something similar can be done for adept if someone wants to code it
<Riddell> hmm, bogofilter is on this agenda twice :)
<raphink> oh nice :)
<OdyX> screenshots stored in debs or in launchpad ?
<Riddell> OdyX: launchpad wuld be the best place
<OdyX> sure.
<Hobbsee> (if we cant stop duplicates on one wiki page, what chance do we have of avoiding duplicate bug reports??? :P )
<Riddell> adding it to app-install-data would take up significant disk space
<Riddell> ok, pef points us to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdebase/+bug/41040
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 41040 in kdebase "Should be easier to choose printout mode (draft/normal/photo,...)" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  
<Lure> Hobbsee: lol
<Riddell> which looks a lot like an upstream issue to me, redesigning the kde print dialogue is not best done by distros
<toma> not at all indeed
<Lure> Riddell: agree 
<Riddell> toma: hmm?
<Riddell> toma: to which point?
<toma> your point
<yuriy> i don't understand what is meant by adept screenshots
<toma> hmm, other words: i think it is an upstream thing
<Riddell> yep, pef if you read the logs, work with inorog on the issue
<Riddell> so, kubuntu members
<kwwii> Here is a usability side of the printer problem...my father-in-law complained that his computer was stuck in a loop because he tried to print one document and it kept printing them every hour or so...in the end it turned out that he had tried to print a 70MB file and cause it took so long he kept clicking, thinking it was not working...the queue had like 20 jobs in it
<Lure> yuriy: adept would show screenshop (preview) of app that you may want to installl
<raphink> yuriy: screenshots of programs to be added to program description
<raphink> imo
<yuriy> oh to the description
<yuriy> interesting idea
<Riddell> kwwii: yep, I think we'll add back the print job viewer to the menu 
<yuriy> it would have to download them from launchpad or along with the package lists from apt then?
<toma> kwwii: there was a prinitng summit recently, i think the conclusion was that printing can be improved a lot and there are people working on it 
<Riddell> toma: there's still very little action from KDE on it
<kwwii> toma: my point is, if he would have found the print queue utility he would have know
<toma> (but that can take a while)
<kwwii> but he kept closing them
<kwwii> anyway...
<kwwii> that is my opinion :-)
<Riddell> so I now have the ability to make kubuntu members, which are equal to ubuntu members
<Riddell> member needs to have made a sustained and substantial contribution, and sign the code of conduct etc
<Tonio_> Riddell: equal ?? interesting ;)
<Riddell> questions is what's the best way to accept people as members
<Hobbsee> so, what's the idea - if you go for kubuntu membership, you dont have to go for ubuntu membership?
<kwwii> blood
<robotgeek> if i am a member of both teams, do i get something special :P
<Riddell> Hobbsee: correct, they are exactly the same thing, you just get a different icon
<raphink> Riddell: as we're talking about kdeprint, did you confirm the greyed list of printers when adding a new printer currently?
<OdyX> robotgeek: A4 visit card.
<Tonio_> Riddell: will members get @ubuntu.com address too ?
<Riddell> raphink: nope, I didn't have that problem and neither has anyone else
<Riddell> Tonio_: they'll get @kubuntu.org addresses if elmo works out how to do it
<Tonio_> Riddell: very nice ;)
* Tonio_ wants tonio@kubuntu.org :)
<Riddell> as I understand it edubuntu are starting an edubuntu community council for this
<kwwii> now that is cool
<raphink> weird
<Tonio_> Riddell: to my opinion a CC is the best for this yes
<toma> Riddell: i found the kde eV method very good, 1 person suggest->2 agree->vote, but that depends on how many people would join. Maybe go straight to a vote would be ok.
<raphink> oh interesting
<raphink> :)
<Riddell> we could have a kubuntu community council.  or we could have just use these meeting, 
<OdyX> Tonio_: CC, with Kubuntu Members or Ubuntu Members ?
<Riddell> or I could just have the final say
<raphink> Tonio_: hehe
<Riddell> toma: interesting idea, we could have a script set up to vote with the existing members
<Hobbsee> i supect that would create more problems than it would fix - what if the person suddenly starts working on gnome?  what if they want to work on both at the same time?  we already have enough people asking for teh kubuntu repos, thinking they are separate to the ubuntu ones - does that mean we need a #kubuntu-motu as well?
<claydoh> start small, then go to a kubuntu community council if it gets too unwieldy?
* Hobbsee realises she has a thing to add to the end of the meeting...
<Hobbsee> mind you, i like the idea of hobbsee@kubuntu.com
<Hobbsee> er, .org
<Tonio_> OdyX: same than the ubuntu CC, every member gives his opinion, and a team of people is designed to take the decision
<Riddell> Hobbsee: since kubuntu memebership is exactly the same as ubuntu membership this doesn't change stuff like everyone working in #ubuntu-motu
<Tonio_> it works well for ubuntu actually, so why would we do differently ?
<OdyX> Tonio_: Yeah.. I understand that.. but would there be a Kubuntu CC (KCC) ?
<raphink> Hobbsee: not .com
<Tonio_> OdyX: supposedly yes
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i'm worried that people will start thinking that kubuntu/ubuntu memberships are different
<Hobbsee> raphink: yeah, i fixed it
<Lure> Tonio_: I think CC would be better (more clear), but then you need to define how CC is elected...
<Riddell> Hobbsee: it just emphasises the parts you work on most
<yuriy> so what would actually be the point/benefit of being a kubuntu "member" other than a cool email address?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: or that people will try to go for kubuntu just to get membership on kubuntu, if it's easier than ubuntu's, then switch over...
<robotgeek> yuriy: more work, more responsibility :)
<Hobbsee> hmmm..right
<Lure> Or just Riddell changes his nick to ksabdfl?
<Lure> ;-)
<toma> good question yuriy
<robotgeek> lol
<Tonio_> Lure: LOL ^^
<Hobbsee> yuriy: a cool hostmask that makes you look like you know what you're talkign about :P
<ajmitch> yuriy: it's more for delegation to the teams where people work
<OdyX> Lure: +1
<Hobbsee> hehe!
<Riddell> yuriy: mostly it's a sign of commitment, it also means you get to vote on community council and tech board members, and it's a requirement for getting upload rights
<Tonio_> Lure: why not, riddell decides the kcc and then the kcc decides the members
<Tonio_> that makes sense
<Riddell> Hobbsee: this is indeed something we'll have to be careful of
<toma> Riddell: in that case, i would think it is wise to vote between all members and you being able to override it at any time.
<yuriy> Riddell, ajmitch: thanks, good answer
<OdyX> I think (with all respect to you Riddell) that "one person  responsability" is dangerous. For the beginning, it's normal, but then, a concil is good.
<Hobbsee> is it such a bad thing to go to the CC, and get membership that way?  i know they're kinda harsh at times, and a bit scary...but i would not want to separate the distros more than they already are
<yuriy> Hobbsee: lol yeah that's what I was thinking.
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: it's the CC that wants the teams to take responsibility for it, iirc
<toma> in about a year, how many people do you expect in the kcc?
<ajmitch> I think that the kubuntu-members would be a sub-team of ubuntu-members, so anyone added to k-m is automatically in both
<ajmitch> (just speculation)
<Lure> Hobbsee: I also understand current CC - it will not scale if you count also LoCo approvals, and governance stuff
<Hobbsee> Also, we dont know everything - Riddell has a far greater understanding than we do of who fits where - how are we to vote on someone we've never heard much about, if they've not been on irc?  i've only found out that amu did the cds, recently!
<OdyX> ajmitch: that's what planning said, AFAIR
<Tonio_> ajmitch: that can be a bit confusing no ?
<Lure> it makes sense to have some delgation of authority to subgrups of size of Kubuntu or Edubuntu.
<yuriy> ajmitch: then whoever decides who is in ubuntu-members HAS to have a say here, not just Riddell or kcc
<ajmitch> Tonio_: simple once you see it :)
<Riddell> toma: if we had a community council I'd say 5 or 6 members
<Kamion> ajmitch: yes, that's how it's set up, see down at the end of https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers
<Tonio_> ajmitch: most people contributing on the kde part are not especially involved in gnome
<Tonio_> and ubuntu  = gnome in the spirit of many
<Lure> ajmitch: that is the fact already - see launchpad
<ajmitch> right
<OdyX> Tonio_: this maybe has to be changes "upstream"
<toma> Riddell: in that case a simple majority should be ok, on an equal amount of votes, you decide.
<toma> just mho
<Kamion> yuriy: we're content to delegate this; if it turns out to be a problem we can always reconsider
<Riddell> Hobbsee: if we had a kcc then whoever was on it would have to be in touch with the community, but mostly the community is on #kubuntu-devel except loco teams
<OdyX> more in "Ubuntu = Good base + [Gnome/KDE/...] " or Ubuntu = good base.
* Kamion <- CC member
* Hobbsee waves to Kamion 
<Kamion> hi
<Hobbsee> Riddell: that's true.
<Riddell> I worry with a kcc that things might get to beurocratic, e.g. we don't have that many meetings and someone might not be able to turn up at the times we do
<Riddell> Kamion: do you know if CC had any expectation of how kubuntu and edubuntu would handle this?
<Tonio_> Riddell: that's a good way to oblige us making more meetings ;)
<toma> (which might be good anyways)
<Tonio_> but seriously, I agree with on that point
<Hobbsee> one other point:  if we cant vote easily on something relatively simple such as printer settings, and quickly, is it really fair to leave the people in limbo for that long while we vote for 10 mins?  I'd like to avoid burocreacy as much as possible, and i suspect that's what we'll be creating
<Lure> Riddell: I think one meeting per month should be enough for start
<Kamion> Riddell: I wasn't really in on the details, was mostly sabdfl/elmo I think
<Kamion> Riddell: I don't think we expected you to need to create a whole clone of the CC structure etc. right away
<kwwii> I get the feeling that I voted the wrong way on the printer thing
<Kamion> the basic impetus was just so that @kubuntu.org addresses could be created independently
<Kamion> (more or less)
<Kamion> Riddell: you can always punt folks to the CC if you feel they've made wider contributions than just kubuntu
<OdyX> Kamion: you mean  "half-members" ?
<Kamion> Riddell: I'd certainly be wary of setting up something that requires lots of voting and stuff before you get used to how things are feeling
<Kamion> heh, actually I just checked in LP and anyone who's a member of kubuntu-members is automatically a member of ubuntumembers, not the other way round
<Kamion> OdyX: so no, I don't mean half-members
<Riddell> can I propose we have a poll on 1) creating a KCC or 2) having me make the decisions based on asking people informally
<Kamion> it's a system of delegation, not a tiered ystem
<Kamion> system
<Riddell> given Kamion's comments I'm leaning towards 2)
<Riddell> anyone want to propose other options?
<toma> simple voting system at malone?
<yuriy> I don't see how voting for people at monthly meetings is a big issue.  After the initial bunch of people already contributing become members, somebody will need a few weeks to show "sustained contribution" anyways and then they can be voted on at a meeting at the end of the month.
<robotgeek> I'm also with 2) with the possibility to vote 'offline'
<Kamion> sorry, obviously it's up to you, I'm not intending to try to lean on you
<raphink> Kamion: which seems prettty logical, since kubuntu is a specific case of ubuntu
<raphink> and not the contrary
* Hobbsee is against 1), so that probably means i have to vote 2, doesnt it?  ideally, i'd keep it going through the ubuntu CC
<Riddell> so 3) voting based on existing members
<toma> 3++
<raphink> I'd say 2)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I'd add a 4) don't approve anyone and send them all to CC but it's CC's choice to delegate it to us
<Tonio_> I'd say 2) too, but 3 can also be a nice option
<Hobbsee> ah darn
<Hobbsee> Riddell: with 3, what does that mean?  the existing members voting on the new ones?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes
<robotgeek> How about using https://launchpad.net/people/kubuntu-members/+polls for members?
<Hobbsee> gotcha
<Hobbsee> robotgeek: leaving people in limbo is pretty mean
<robotgeek> Hobbsee: how would that be leaving people in limbo (you have x votes, you are approved)
<Lure> I would say 3) 
<toma> its not going to take ages to have a poll with 5/6 people
<yuriy> with 3) then we have to start with 2) to get members in the first place?
<raphink> I think 3 is too complicate
<Riddell> the trouble with 3) is we don't have a way to discuss things
<Hobbsee> robotgeek: ah ok, i thought you were going for half way points....so you'd have to wait ages for all the required votes
<Lure> robotgeek: to formal - I think a bit of discussion on meeting is appropraite
<raphink> cause "everyone" is not easy to define
<raphink> unless that means all members present
<Riddell> raphink: yes
<toma> Riddell: you can announce the poll by email, explaining thinks, but i agree that is not a discussion.
<Lure> raphink: I would suggest simple amjority of present members (+ minimal of 3/5 present)?
<raphink> robotgeek: does this system accept comments?
<Lure> s/amjority/majority
<robotgeek> raphink: not sure, i just saw this, no idea how it works :)
<raphink> Riddell: in this case it could be used, using comments as a discussion thread
<Riddell> raphink: I don't think it does
<raphink> Lure: so a relative majority
<raphink> Lure: I don't really agree with that
<raphink> because most people who apply to membership are obviously supported 
<raphink> so in the case of 3), most people will come with their support team
<Tonio_> raphink: ++
<raphink> and this is not a neutral decision in this case
<Lure> raphink: right...
<OdyX> 3) includes "existing members", huh ?
<Hobbsee> raphink: +1
<raphink> in my idea, people should have avocates to apply, but their advocates shouldn't vote
* raphink thinks this begins to look like the debian system somehow ...
<robotgeek> raphink: care to elaborate?
<Hobbsee> so...people will refuse to advocate, because they're needed to vote?
<toma> raphink: you can not so that, in a group of 5/6
<Lure> when I think again, small (3 member?) KCC with 1 year mandate, elected from all members is not a bad idea...
<raphink> I think someone who deserves membership can find at least one member to support his application
<raphink> this person should come and advocate the candidate
<raphink> but not take part in the vote
<freeflying> raphink: that really like debian's
<raphink> Lure: sure
<toma> again, the group is too smal to do that
<OdyX> too small "yet" ?
<raphink> 1 year mandate is a bit long maybe
<raphink> but the idea seems nice imo
<Riddell> toma: you're now talking about 5/6 people, that's the KCC idea
<raphink> freeflying: indeed
<Lure> raphink: why? this is only two releases ;-)
<raphink> sure
<raphink> Lure: how long have you  been around?
<toma> ah, ok.
<robotgeek> there are 15 members, just for info
<raphink> ;)
<Lure> raphink: around kubuntu-devel? From Jan/Feb or so...
<Lure> ;-)
<raphink> mhm
<toma> why don't you try to do it with a poll between all members and when that turns out bad, create a kcc.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: also, with IRC hostmasks, would they get changed to say ubuntu/member/hobbsee or kubuntu/member/hobbsee - if the latter, what does that mean for those of us who are ops in both channels - will people stop listing if the hostmask says kubuntu, saying that they cant be authorities in here, as they dont use gnome?  (warning:  semi formed idea, it's still early :P )
<Lure> toma: first question: who defines "exisitng members"  oto kick-start? every ubuntu-members that declares itself as such?
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> I think the launchpad poll thing could work
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I don't have any plans to get kubuntu freenode masks
<Riddell> Lure: see https://launchpad.net/people/kubuntu-team/
<Hobbsee> right, cool :)
<toma> Lure: https://launchpad.net/people/kubuntu-members/+members
<raphink> so...
* raphink has lost the thread
* Hobbsee has too :P
<Riddell> Hobbsee: although we probably could do without any problems
<Hobbsee> Riddell: please dont.
<raphink> yeah
<Riddell> Hobbsee: ok, sorted
<raphink> I think in some cases, membership is just obvious
<raphink> for everybody
<Hobbsee> Riddell: :P  that's gotta be the quickest agreement ever in history for a kubuntu meeting!
<Riddell> annoyingly no clear best way has presented itself for the kubuntu memebers question
<raphink> and there's no need for a meeting to decide about it
<Riddell> shall we take a poll again?
<toma> evaluate a system after a few tries...
<Riddell> 1) kcc, 2) ksabdfl, 3) vote amongst existing members
<yuriy> toma: OH so the team is already there and has members. i was confused.
<OdyX> 3) with 2) veto ?
* freeflying 3) +
<Tonio_> 1) and 3) as second option
<Lure> 1
<OdyX> for not having "obvious campain comitee" ?
<yuriy> what is the difference between kubuntu-team and kubuntu-members?
<Hobbsee> 1
<Riddell> yuriy: kubuntu-team is less formal, doesn't include ubuntu membership
<raphink> yuriy: kubuntu-team is the bug contact for malone
<Riddell> that too
<Riddell> interestingly we already have 3 proposed members for kubuntu-members who I've never hard of
<raphink> actually kubuntu-team is not even an equivalent of ubuntu-devel
<Riddell> heard
<raphink> since there are non-dev members in it
<Riddell> anyone know LIVRON, PeppeP, itsdebtosh?
<Hobbsee> no x3
<Riddell> raphink: it's equivent of desktop-team I think
<raphink> mhm
<raphink> Riddell: well if as sabdfl proposed we get a TB, there might be to approve kubuntu devels aswell
<OdyX> who is meant to apply to kubuntu-team ?
<raphink> and the need to have a kubuntu-devel group as there is an ubuntu-devel one
<Riddell> raphink: where did he propose that?
<raphink> or did I misunderstand his statement?
<Riddell> OdyX: anyone who helps with kubuntu, feel free to sign up
<raphink> hmm let's see
<OdyX> Riddell: thanks ;-)
<Tonio_> Riddell: never heard of them
<raphink> "
<raphink> During the course of these discussions I would like us to nominate a core
<raphink> leadership team for Kubuntu which can take overall technical
<raphink> responsibility for the desktop
<raphink> obviously that doesn't not  _exactly_ mean TB
<Kamion> raphink: ubuntu-dev is upload privileges, that won't be split out for kubuntu for quite some time
<raphink> but this is what the TB does 
<raphink> for ubuntu
<OdyX> Riddell: wait.. kubuntu-team is sub-group of kubuntu-members...
<raphink> Kamion: ok, thanks for making this clear :)
<Kamion> raphink: the two share an archive, so it's not sane to split out the privileges currently
<Riddell> OdyX: other way around if anything
<raphink> sure Kamion 
<Hobbsee> actually, i'm rather in favour of having a top level team, such as raphink and Riddell, and maybe tonio or something, i'm not sure who else - who takes responsibility - instead of just Riddell.  What i see is that this team would be the KCC, control the meetings, make sure everything's on track, and people have something to do, etc.  It seems that there are so many people here, that to get agreement and direction on much is kinda difficult.
<Lure> Hobbsee: +1
<Hobbsee> it's rather hard to do something, if you dont know what to do :P
<Riddell> our poll was kindae split between 1) and 3)
<Hobbsee> these people would be approved by the general majority
* Yann2 like the 3-guy idea
<Riddell> but Mark does seem to be suggesting some sort of committee for kubuntu to be discussed at linuxtag
<toma> i like Hobbsee's idea here..
<Hobbsee> (woot
<Riddell> Yann2: it would have to be more than three, otherwise people often don't turn up
<Hobbsee> ! i'm getting approval!)
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes mark seems to have plans for kubuntu on those points
<toma> then delay it untill after the linuxTag
<yuriy> yeah I also agree a KCC sounds the most sensible. 3 or 5 people
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: of course, it's a reasonable idea :)
<Riddell> so I propose that after linuxtag we look at what Mark and us have decided and use that as a framework for the membership stuff
<Lure> toma: probably makes sense - and it will be easier to discuss there ...
<toma> ++
<Riddell> great, a decision :)
<Lure> Riddell: ++
<Tonio_> Riddell: hehe
* Hobbsee is lost
<Riddell> Hobbsee: kppp and krfb
<ajmitch> Riddell: I'm impressed
* Hobbsee wants a team like i mentioned above, precisely to combat this sort of thing!  And to get the meetings back on track, so everything gets discussed quickly
<Hobbsee> yeah, kpp and krfb - quick question - anyone use these, or know of people on IRC who do?
<freeflying> Hobbsee: that shall be a KCC
<robotgeek> hmm, i tried kfrb once, never again!
<OdyX> Hobbsee: raphink and I used it "once".
<toma> Hobbsee: i use it to take over desktop of some of my customers
<robotgeek> but that was a long time ago
<Hobbsee> i'm subscribed to the kdenetwork section, but i dont have those to test with...
<Riddell> people who use IRC may well not use kppp if they have to pay for their dialup time
<Hobbsee> true, good point
<yuriy> krfb is a fairly nice interface, but it doesn't really work.
<Hobbsee> email also works
<Hobbsee> i'm just looking for testers
<Riddell> Hobbsee: what's the problem testing krfb, can't you setup a local server to connect to?
<toma> yuriy: why not?
<Tonio_> yuriy: krfb works perfectly.....
<kwwii> I have one question: what is, in everyones eyes, the next most important thing to take care of art-wise?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i've only got my own machine here
<yuriy> well, in my experience and i guess robotgeek's
<OdyX> Hobbsee: you need to be able to redirect ports of router.
<Tonio_> yuriy: and the client (talking about interface) is krdc, not krfb :)
<raphink> krfb works great
<toma> yep
<Tonio_> raphink: absolutly
<yuriy> by interface I meant just the dialog it give you to set it up. UI not client.
<yuriy> 1 sec i'll find the bug
<Tonio_> yuriy: okay, sorry ;)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: you can use krfb as the server and connect to your local machine with krdc
<Hobbsee> kwwii: hmm...without having seen the kdm, probably the splash screen, adn make it all nice and shiny and pretty
<Riddell> Hobbsee: it gets a bit trippy at times, but it does work
<raphink> and it's very useful
<Hobbsee> Riddell: ah ok, interesting...
<raphink> I often suggest to use krfb/krdc when helping users in desperate cases 
<kwwii> Riddell: and...can I add a short overview of the kubuntu artwork until now to the wiki page for the meeting on Saturday?
<robotgeek> damn, i got confused with kxfb. <sigh> i did use krfb too, i just use freenx now
<Riddell> kwwii: please do
<kwwii> Hobbsee: we did KDM already :-) although maybe we should work on the bg of that a bit?
<Riddell> robotgeek: kxfb is an nxclient for kde?
<toma> robotgeek: thats something totally differen
<yuriy> bug 39046
<Hobbsee> kwwii: i'm not sure, i'm using a custom kdmrc, and i havent figured out how to change it back yet...
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39046 in kdenetwork "krfb crashes when a connected client move mouse" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39046
<robotgeek> toma: i know, i got confuzzled :)
<Tonio_> Riddell: I think the client is knx
<Riddell> yes
<Tonio_> Riddell: never heard of that kxfb
<robotgeek> Riddell: kxfb is a start button or something, sorry for confusion
<Hobbsee> while i'm the one who's discussing things here, can we get rid of that horrible thing called kwifimanager, or at least, hide it on the menus?
<Tonio_> robotgeek: ahhhhhhhh ys tou're tight :)
<yuriy> ok i should be more specific. krfb has problems when you connect to it with a different vnc client
<Tonio_> robotgeek: linspire uses this
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I think for kppp testing you'll need to put out a call on the kubuntu-devel mailing list
* robotgeek likes his K-Menu
<Tonio_> yuriy: it is slower and then krfb uses big resources, you're right
<raphink> Tonio_: this is a kicker applet to replace the K Menu and look like the fancy XP menu
<Hobbsee> it's a piece of rubbish, it doesnt work, it's never worked, and it tends to lie about networks.  see the bug reports for it.  it also lies about IP addresses, and sayign you're connected when in actual fact you arent.
<toma> yuriy: my collegea uses a mac without problems to connect to them
<Tonio_> raphink: I know ;)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: kppp isn't really maintained in KDE as far as I can tell
<Lure> Riddell: kppp bugs looks like just giving better out-of-box config...
<Hobbsee> Riddell: is there another tool for it?   knm is eventually going to contain dialup stuff, isnt it?
<Lure> Hobbsee: I could try kppp (if my modem in laptop works) with local dialup ISP for test
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I'm not sure, in suse it just calls yast I think
* Hobbsee nods
<Riddell> I wonder what gnome network-manager does
<freeflying> Riany tools for configure ADSL.etc in kde now 
<Riddell> I suspect it's not built-in their either
<Riddell> freeflying: what's that?
<Tonio_> Riddell: gnome network-manager simply doesn't have any ppp features
<freeflying> Riddell: any tools for configure ADSL.etc in kde now ?
<Tonio_> that's knetworkmanager specific, since it is developped by suse
<Riddell> freeflying: no, do you need some?
<Riddell> Tonio_: right
<freeflying> Riddell: sure
<Hobbsee> freeflying: it tends to work by default, doesnt it?
<Riddell> freeflying: have you tried knet?
<freeflying> Rihaven't yet
<freeflying> haven't yet
<Riddell> freeflying: let me know if that's what you need
<Riddell> Hobbsee: can you put a call out on the mailing list then?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yep, okay then.
<Riddell> ok, linuxtag
<Riddell> Yann2: poke
<freeflying> Hobbsee: pppoe can work defautly?
<Yann2> . :)
<Hobbsee> freeflying: oh, i thought you meant something else, my errors.
<Riddell> just wanting to inform everyone that Mark wants me and him and anyone else to have meetings with KDE people at linuxtag
<Riddell> raphink: can you come to that?
<freeflying> Riddell: can knet be in main
<Riddell> if anyone has ideas on what to put at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuLinuxTagMeetings I'd welcome that
<freeflying> or include in install cd 
<Tonio_> Riddell: I will be there on saturday
<Riddell> freeflying: sure, if it works for you then probably lots of people need it
<Riddell> Tonio_: great
<Tonio_> so if it is saturday, I will be there
<Riddell> Tonio_: yes, it's saturday
<raphink> Riddell: sure
<Tonio_> Riddell: perfect then :)
<freeflying> Riddell: too many guys in china need it  :)
* Hobbsee has no passport, and will not be there.
<raphink> Riddell: i'll be at LT and surely at these meetings
<Tonio_> 9 hours train for one day in linuxtag......
<raphink> esp. on saturday which is ubuntu love day
<Riddell> raphink: have you heard from mdy about your talk?
<Lure> Riddell: I would like to come, but flight/train connections are bad (and I cannot leave before Fri)
<OdyX> Tonio_: could be bus...
<Tonio_> OdyX: lol
<Riddell> the kde-ev list seems quite interested in these meetings
<raphink> hmmm
<Riddell> I've no idea what to expect really, but it should be interesting
<toma> Riddell: I see Eva's name
<Riddell> toma: yep
<Riddell> eva's quite a big kubuntu fangirl
<toma> and scott and daniel, wow. 
<OdyX> We started a general discussion on -fr forums. Users are wondered about Kubuntu's future IN Ubuntu...
<raphink> Riddell: yes
<OdyX> this could be interestingly discussed with Mark...
<kwwii> Riddell: I talked to Eva on the phone yesterday (I am doing a contract for her company) and she asked me about this stuff :-)
<freeflying> Riddell: how about the grub install failure of kubuntu
<Riddell> freeflying: hang on, we're still on linuxtag
<Riddell> OdyX: what sort of thing are they wondering?
<OdyX> like if Kubuntu would be seperating of Ubuntu, to have Kde-based releases...
<apokryphos> interesting
<Riddell> OdyX: I doubt it, especailly since KDE won't be releasing again for probably 10 months 
<Riddell> but longer term, maybe
<apokryphos> (/me notes that of course many people are also thinking about Canonical's dedication to Kubuntu as well, these days)
<OdyX> like about the fact that Ubuntu is more a base and should maybe not be associated with Gnome...
<raphink> OdyX: seems kamion gave a clear answer on this
<Riddell> I suspect Mark just hopes KDE will move to time based releases, which would be lovely but unlikly to happen
<yuriy> OdyX: I don't think that's an issue until at least dapper+2 when it might be sensible to waight for a stable release of kde4
<eric_p> Riddell: most people in french forum were against separate release cycle
<Riddell> eric_p: so am i at this stage
<OdyX> so am I.. just reporting questions
<Riddell> apokryphos: wait until we have shipit in June, that'll be a noticable dedication
<apokryphos> indeed :). Very happy that's happening.
<OdyX> I think Kubuntu's future as distribution (and no variant/taste) of Ubuntu should be discussed.
<raphink> I don't want separate realease either
<toma> could we focus on linuxtag for now
<Tonio_> I'm sorry guys, but I have to wait very early tomorrow..... I have to go.....
<Tonio_> note all
<apokryphos> yeah, was a little annoying last time that on slashdot there was "Ubuntu 5.10 released!" ....and no mention of Kubuntu :/
<eric_p> note that KDE devs will never accept time based release
<Yann2> I think Kubuntu should be part of the more global "Ubuntu" project :)
<ajmitch> bye Tonio_ 
<Tonio_> s/note/nite
<OdyX> bye Tonio_
<apokryphos> 'night
<OdyX> Yann2: wouldn't that mean a separation between Gnome and Ubuntu ?
<toma> is the plan like having a seperate room for kubuntu meetings all saterday and only saterday?
<robotgeek> later folks, gotta run
<Riddell> toma: not all saturday but for a few hours yes
<toma> i counted 200+ minutes already ;-)
<Riddell> ok, we're running late
<Riddell> if anyone has other suggestions for linuxtag do let me know
<Riddell> and I'll report back on blog/mailing list etc
<Riddell> anyone object to me removing kuickshow?
<toma> nope, but whats the replacement?
<apokryphos> kuickshow sucks :P
<apokryphos> gwenview
<Riddell> it's obsoleted by gwenview/digikam/kimdama as far as I'm concerned
<Lure> Riddell: it would be nice if somebody would take notes and report back to others that will not be there
<toma> ieee
<Lure> (meeting minutes or so)
* Hobbsee didnt even konw kuickshow existed :P
<Riddell> toma: we never included kuickshow in main, but now it's being removed from the distro completely because we don't want to use imlib
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: you didn't miss much
* OdyX neither.
<raphink> Hobbsee: kuickshow is obsolete
<Hobbsee> hehe true
<raphink> it hasn't been maintained for 3 years
<kwwii> Riddell: that might cause a bit of a stir, but I think it should be removed
<toma> digikam is albummanagement, so not an option. showfoto would be (patched without splash)
<kwwii> gwenview has drawbacks as well
<Riddell> kwwii: I think it might with some of the older KDE users
<apokryphos> digikam is getting better and better very quickly these days
<kwwii> Riddell: exactly
<Riddell> but nobody here's objecting, so decision made
<kwwii> yepp :-)
<Riddell> any other business?
<toma> apokryphos: but not to view a single image quickly
<apokryphos> indeed
<Hobbsee> Riddell: do we want to create a #kubuntu+1 channel? 
<Hobbsee> where do we hold the kuubntu dapper stuff?  #kubuntu or #ubuntu+1?
<apokryphos> toma: as you said, its speciality is photo management.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: for discussing edgy?
<Hobbsee> er, dapper at this point..
<toma> apokryphos: i know ;-)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: so this would be for users to discuss using dapper?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yes
<apokryphos> would be a good idea
<apokryphos> people get shoved between those two quite a bit sometimes
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I don't think there would be enough people in it
<Hobbsee> i'm half in favour of keeping them all in #kubuntu
<OdyX> #ubuntu-fr+1 exists for straight a long time..
<Hobbsee> but they are being shoved to #ubuntu+1, then dont get help for kde related problems
<Riddell> yes, I'd say keep them in #kubuntu
<robotgeek> people half expect #kbuntu+1
<Hobbsee> okay, cool
<Riddell> and if they know what they're talking about and talking about useful stuff point them to #kubuntu-devel
<Lure> Riddell: yes - we need them to fix bugs, not just complain
<Lure> ;-)
<Riddell> Lure: yes please :)
<Hobbsee> topic changed
<Riddell> kwwii: any artwork stuff to bring up?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: right, gotcha
<Riddell> freeflying: you had something to bring up?
* Hobbsee has more as well
<freeflying> Riddell: the grub install failure
<kwwii> Riddell: well, I would like to know where to go next
<Riddell> freeflying: I've not seen grub fail to install, is this text installer or ubiquity?
<kwwii> I guess the installer
<freeflying> Riddell: text installer, I've been asked times 
<Riddell> freeflying: don't know I'm afraid, if you still have the problem with beta 2 let me know and i'll look into it
<Riddell> kwwii: yes, artwork for ubiquity would be cool
<Riddell> would be fun to have kde ubiquity looking better than gtk ubiquity :)
<kwwii> :-)
<Riddell> kwwii: example content would be good to have soon
<Riddell> and not very difficult, you just need to learn some basic .deb packaging
<kwwii> I guess you still need the different icon sizes for adept notify and spresso
<Riddell> kwwii: yeah, please
<kwwii> Riddell: what kind of content do we want?
<freeflying> Riddell: knet seems not stable enough now
<Riddell> kwwii: well, we have adept notifyer icon but if you have an svg of it that would be good to have for soures sake
<Riddell> kwwii: apt-get source example-content
<Riddell> kwwii: and make kubuntu versions of anything with an ubuntu theme
<kwwii> Riddell: yeah, seen that...kind of a mix of strange things :-)
<Riddell> kwwii: if you have ideas for cool things in there that would be fun, but it's mostly so people can easily test that the apps all work
<Riddell> Hobbsee: you have an item?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: is wlassistant going to go itno main?
<kwwii> I mean, we could put all the svg sources from all the graphics in one place as well...kinda like a dapper-artwork-source package
<Hobbsee> urgh, it's unreviewed, as is knm.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, it's been reviewed and they said they'd be looking at anastacia tomorrow or next week so it'll go in very soon
<Hobbsee> excellent, so the wiki page isnt up to date
<Riddell> Hobbsee: if you look at the individual pages it should say reviewed at the bottom
<Hobbsee> i therefore suggest that we remove kwifimanager from the kmenu
<Riddell> Hobbsee: if it's not been put on the MainReviewQueue page in the right place please fix that
<Hobbsee> seeing as it's depreciated, and has never worked very well
<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, I'll drop kwifimanager as soon as wlassistant is in
<Hobbsee> will do
<Hobbsee> and what about those bug reports?  kill them as unsupported?
<freeflying> Riddell: how about include ktranslator in main
<Riddell> Hobbsee: it'll still be in universe, but in practicce we can ignore them and point people at wlassistant
<Hobbsee> right, good, thanks :)
<Riddell> freeflying: what does it do?
<Riddell> well, I can guess I suppose
<Riddell> what does it do that babelfish doesn't?
<freeflying> Riddell: a dictionary 
<freeflying> It can support many languages, and works fine
<Riddell> freeflying: please write a main inclusion report, and I'll take a look at it
<Riddell> any other business?
<Hobbsee> oh yes, someone needs to have a bit of a look at the network settings module in system settings - it keeps crashing.  my inbox is now full of bug reports :P
<Hobbsee> Riddell: not that i know of - i want breakfast!
<toma> ok, well i moved it to Meeting+1, but since i'm still up, I might as well say something about it... I can hack a little bit and would like to help out with easy todo's, but it seems difficult for me to get a grip on what you guys are doing and where I can help. I can imagen there are others also. It would be great to have easy todo's, short time frames, overseeable things. 
<Hobbsee> toma: +50 million
<Riddell> Hobbsee: Lure has already been brilliant and done some fixes, but there's still more problems with it that do need fixed
<Hobbsee> Riddell: gotcha, cool
<toma> Hobbsee: ?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: but I think the crashes should have gone away so you can mark bugs as "does this still happen in beta 2"
<Hobbsee> toma: at your idea :P
<toma> Hobbsee: oki
<toma> ;-)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, i'll do that
<Riddell> toma: have you seen HelpingKubuntu?
<Riddell> it's a bit out of date now
<Kamion> freeflying: anything in the text installer won't be Kubuntu-specific
<toma> Riddell: i looked at it, but they seem like large projects iirc
<Riddell> Hobbsee: might want to wait until beta 2 is actually out first, I guess that'll happen tomorrow
<Kamion> to an extremely good first approximation
<Kamion> Riddell: it's out
<toma> (hmm, i might be confused with malones todo's here)
<freeflying> Kamion: if can be install from hdd media more easier will be nice 
<Riddell> Kamion: tomorrow?
<Kamion> Riddell: now
<Kamion> freeflying: see the installation guide
<Lure> Hobbsee: can you assign bugs in knetworkconf to kdeadmin package - I did not have time yet to dive into kdebase and meta
<Kamion> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-April/000072.html
<Riddell> toma: would it help if I made more specific projects for the bug day?
<Lure> then I will be able to triage further on
<Riddell> Kamion: excellent
<Hobbsee> Lure: okay, they're currently beign filed in kdebase, and some in kdenetwork.  any i see, i'll reassign
<Kamion> note (though I know Riddell knows this already) that the beta 2 install CD is the same as beta 1, that's not changed
<toma> Riddell: i'm not sure what you mean
<freeflying> Kamion: guys caomlain it more complicated than breezy do
<Lure> Hobbsee: is should be kdeadmin knetworkconf!
<ajmitch> Riddell: maybe something to quickly discuss with sfllaw
<Hobbsee> right
<Kamion> freeflying: it's a bit late here and I'm not sure I understand you, perhaps you should get those guys to file bugs about the problems they're having
<Riddell> toma: we have bug days occationally https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuBugDay
<Riddell> toma: and there's lists of things people can work on
<Riddell> toma: I might need to find some more focused things for kubuntu people to work on
<Hobbsee> Riddell: that'd be good
<Riddell> toma: I also had a request from the gnome packagers to make KDE packages use the icon cache thingy that gnome uses
<toma> Riddell: yes, just easy, maybe even boring things to do, look at http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/sanitizer/reports/kde-4.0/kdeedu/klatin/index.html it is easy to do and well described...
<Riddell> as an example of a shortish todo
<Hobbsee> Riddell: discuss next meeting.
<toma> that does not sound like an easy todo ;-)
<Riddell> toma: so I can try and update HelpingKubuntu at some point and include a list of quickish things people can easily do
<Hobbsee> while i remember about it :P
<apokryphos> KDE's "jj:" system for bugs is quite good, IMO
<toma> Riddell: ok, well, i dont want to give you more work, just something for everyone to think about. Note it down what you can not do yourself or dont want to
<Riddell> apokryphos: maybe we should discuss with malone people getting something like that sorted
* Lure -> bed, good night
* kwwii too
<Riddell> so next meeting?
<Riddell> or shall we just organise one when we feel we need one
<freeflying> Riddell: one week after beta2
<Riddell> freeflying: beta 2 is out now :)
<Hobbsee> need it an hour earlier, if i'm to make all of it.  2 hour slow meeting suck...
<freeflying> Riddell: then one week later
<toma> i think linuxtag will be exciting, seems like a good idea to do discuss that in the week after that.
<Riddell> so thursday 4th?
<toma> for those wo can not join
<Hobbsee> 2100UTC?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: sorted
<Hobbsee> ooh, another agreement!
<Riddell> although that's quite nasty on freeflying 
<Hobbsee> true, the other possibility is 12 hours away...whatever the correct time for that is
<Hobbsee> ie, au night
<freeflying> Riddell: I will be used to  :)
<raphink> next meeting during LT ?
<Riddell> raphink: no, after
<Riddell> oh wait, 4th is dring
<Riddell> ok, 11th then
<Hobbsee> dring?
<Riddell> during
<Hobbsee> ah
<raphink> ok
<raphink> well the 4th is not after
<raphink> LT finishes on the 6th
<Riddell> thursday 11th at 2100UTC it is
<raphink> dring ring
<Riddell> thanks everyone
<raphink> ok :)
<raphink> that's better
<Hobbsee> Riddell: can i discuss some stuff with you later?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: later today or later at that meeting?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: later today
<Hobbsee> you're allowed to sleep :P
* Hobbsee is getting lectured here too, so needs to get off teh computer for a while
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I'll probably go to bed in 15 mins so now or when I wake up
<Hobbsee> when you wake up :)
<Riddell> sure
<Hobbsee> ping me when you do?
<Riddell> yep
<Hobbsee> great, have a good sleep :)
<Riddell> thanks :)
* raphink is to jump in his bed - exhausted ...
<Hobbsee> hehe
* Hobbsee looks at the clock...how'd it get to be 10am???
<ajmitch> raphink: already?
<raphink> ajmitch: really I am
<raphink> that was a Looooooooooooooooooooooong day for me
<ajmitch> yeah
<Hobbsee> hehe
* ajmitch has been up till 3AM most nights this week..
<Hobbsee> hehe...silly ajmitch 
<ajmitch> I know
<raphink> and now I've been up for 18 hours and walked and talked all day
* Hobbsee cant believe that the day has just started again :P
<raphink> and I just want to go to bed :)
<Hobbsee> ouch..
<Hobbsee> raphink: go.  bed.  now! :D
* Hobbsee gets out her long pointy stick
<raphink> so I'll wish you guys a nice day
* Hobbsee waves it threateningly
<raphink> haha
<raphink> :p
<ajmitch> bye raphink 
<raphink> bye
* hybrid_ ph33rs Hobbsee's sticks
<ajmitch> remind me never to get on the bad side of Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> hehehe
<hybrid_> Hobbsee intentionally tries to poke someone's eye out
<Hobbsee> hybrid_: shh :P
<hybrid_> heh
<OdyX> Bye all. Good night.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 May 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 10 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<lucasvo> @calendar zurich
<lucasvo> @schedule zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<zul> @schedule Montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 02 May 17:00: Community Council | 03 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 03 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 16:00: Technical Board | 10 May 08:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-05-04
<ubijtsa> for the freenet6 stuff yeah
<ubijtsa> oops
<bmonty> @schedule CDT
<neuralis> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 02 May 17:00: Community Council | 03 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 03 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 16:00: Technical Board | 10 May 08:00: Edubuntu
<Meyer> @schedule brazil/east
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Brazil/East: 02 May 18:00: Community Council | 03 May 09:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 10:30: Xubuntu | 03 May 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 17:00: Technical Board | 10 May 09:00: Edubuntu
<zul_> @schedule Montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 02 May 17:00: Community Council | 03 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 03 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 16:00: Technical Board | 10 May 08:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-05-05
<sparklink> hi all
<sHaDe> Melandri c'
<sladen> @schedule Europe/Paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<sladen> funky
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-05-06
<zyga> hey :)
<lucasvo> @schedule GMT+1
<lucasvo> @schedule zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<sfllaw> @schedule Canada/Eastern
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Canada/Eastern: 02 May 17:00: Community Council | 03 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 03 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 16:00: Technical Board | 10 May 08:00: Edubuntu
<BlueT_> ....it's 5/2 05:03am CST here today....
<BlueT_> i thought it's 5/2 21:03
<BlueT_> but i was wrong.. ToT
* BlueT_ haven't sleep all night again. *dead*
<Toadstool> @schedule europe/paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<BlueT_> @schedule asia/taipei
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Taipei: 03 May 05:00: Community Council | 03 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 21:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 May 04:00: Technical Board | 10 May 20:00: Edubuntu
<BlueT_> alright, it's tomorrow. my own fault. :(
<sfllaw> BlueT_: Good morning.
<sfllaw> But sorry.
<BlueT_> sfllaw: good morning, and thanx :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-05-07
<ubuntu_lt> @schedule Vilnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 03 May 00:00: Community Council | 03 May 15:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 16:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 05:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 23:00: Technical Board | 10 May 15:00: Edubuntu
<sfllaw> @schedule Canada/Eastern
<ogra> sfllaw, wait until Ubugtu is back :)
<ogra> probably Seveas didnt notice it crashed yet 
<sfllaw> Neither did I.
<sfllaw> :)
<Ubugtu> Hi ogra!
<Ubugtu> Hi sfllaw!
<cbx33> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 02 May 22:00: Community Council | 03 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 14:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 21:00: Technical Board | 10 May 13:00: Edubuntu
<Klaidas> @schedule vilnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 03 May 00:00: Community Council | 03 May 15:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 16:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 05:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 23:00: Technical Board | 10 May 15:00: Edubuntu
<Lure> @schedule Ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<olive> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 02 May 23:00: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<Surak> ubugtu, schedule salvador
<Ju> @schedule salvador
<Surak> @schedule salvador
<Ju> Surak: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=5&day=2&year=2006&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 ;-)
<Surak> Ju: Thanks, I noticed. I was just testing ubugtu :-)
<Ju> ;-)
<Surak> @schedule bahia
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Bahia: 02 May 18:00: Community Council | 03 May 09:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 10:30: Xubuntu | 03 May 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 17:00: Technical Board | 10 May 09:00: Edubuntu
<Surak> odd. Every place in brazil is named by city, but not salvador. The state's name is used instead.
<simira> cc meeting in an hour?
<sfllaw> Yes.
<filhocf> surak: presente! ;)
<Surak> :-)
<Surak> Obrigado!
<filhocf> surak: se cair,  pq a porta ssh t instvel, mas eu reconecto em seguida.
<Surak> ok
<filhocf> qquer coisa, me chama qdo for iniciar os "rituais". ;-)
<Surak> tudo bem! eu grito l no icq :-)
<Meyer> no pt_br allowed here..
<filhocf> Meyer: sorry... i am new here... will not repeat. 
<licio> Surak, your fun club is big
<Surak> licio: I hope so. Quite anxious tough
<Yann3> ahah quite unusual, a canonical employee who wants to become ubuntu member :)
<Seveas> Yann3, noy unusual at all
<Yann3> ah? :] 
<Seveas> all canonical employees should be members by now
<Seveas> well, the distro-team
<Seveas> not all employees
<Meyer> heya Seveas 
<Meyer> how u doin
<Seveas> busy 
<Meyer> i can imagine.. 
<Surak> Meyer, did you receive my email?
<Toadstool> hi everybody
<Meyer> Surak, yep
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 May 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 May 02:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 10 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Meyer> Seveas, i've been busy too.. a lot of conferences around here..
<Meyer> channell will start to fill now.. :P
<Meyer> Seveas, time to start?
<Meyer> ping'd everyone?
<Kamion> (here)
<Meyer> :)
<Bluekuja> hi kamion
<Bluekuja> :)
* Meyer is Mario Meyer
<sfllaw> Hi everybody!
<Bluekuja> hi sfllaw
<Surak> Hello
<elmo> I'm here too - mako said he was on his way home, but should be back RSN (if he isn't already)
<Gloubiboulga> hi all
<Tonio_> hi everyone
* nalioth is Marek Spruell
<mdke> evening everyone.
* Surak is Alexandre Otto Strube
<Bluekuja> ciao matt
* Ju is Julien Rottenberg
* azeem is Michael Banck
* Lure is Luka Renko
* ogra is Oliver Grawert
* sfllaw is Simon Law.
* iegary is Gary Coady
<BlueT_> hi everybody
* cbx33 is Pete Savage
<Bluekuja> hey BlueT_
* bimberi is David Symons
* Toadstool is Jrmie Corbier
* dsas is Dean Sas
<BlueT_> Bluekuja: yo :D
* Seveas is Dennis "Evil Bastard" Kaarsemaker
* licio is Licio Fernando
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
* Gloubiboulga is Gauvain Pocentek
* mvo michael vogt
<Meyer> lol nice alias, Seveas 
* simira is Karianne Grnningster
* ogra fails to see the evil part in Seveas 
* mdke points
<Seveas> ogra, heh, so much you don't know
* LaserJock is Jordan (Mr. Science) Mantha
<ogra> mdke, oh, right
<ogra> Seveas, i hope i can find out in paris ;)
<Seveas> me too
* ompaul is Paul O'Malley
* Tonio_ is anthony mercatante
* gnomefreak is John Vivirito
<Seveas> gnomefreak, do you have a sec for a quick PM?
<gnomefreak> yes sir
* lucas is Lucas Nussbaum
* Bluekuja is Andrea Veri
<mdke> elmo: do you have a few moments before we start?
<elmo> sabdfl sends his apologies, so once mako turns up we can get started
* BlueT_ is Matthew Lien
<elmo> mdke: I guess
<elmo> mdke: (not in here tho, pls)
<elmo> unless it's CC related, of course
<mdke> elmo: no. query
<filhocf> is Claudio Filho (and present)
* ogra would like to point out that the edubuntu council will hold its first meeting tomorrow, we'll also approve members as the CC will, so if you are involved in edubuntu, please apply there to take the load off the CC (membership is the same as approved by CC)
<Seveas> @schedule 
<Ubugtu> schedule Retrieve the date/time of scheduled meetings in a specific timezone
* Yann3 is Yann Hamon
<Seveas> @schedule amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Community Council | 03 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 04 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<Meyer> ogra, actualy can i pvt u for a sec?
<ogra> Meyer, sure
<Seveas> "Edubuntu" also being "edubuntu council"?
<azeem> ogra: do you approve members parallel or serial to the CC?
<Bluekuja> Seveas: yes
<ogra> Seveas, yes, we decided that every first meeting in a month is an EC meeting
<Seveas> cool, maybe that should be made more clear on the fridge? 
<mako> apolgies, got held up on the subway
<mako> i'm here now
<ogra> azeem, edubuntu membership includes ubuntu membership and vice versa
<Seveas> welcome mako
<azeem> ok
<Seveas> we can start!
<Bluekuja> hi mako
<azeem> el mako
<bknec_> heh
<cbx33> hi mako 
<ogra> azeem, its just to take the load off here a bit
<simira> hi mako, hi seb128 
<seb128> Hi simira
<mdke> awesome turnout to the meeting this evening.
<simira> mdke: we're getting there ;)
<Seveas> mako, care to kick off the agenda? 
<mako> sure
<simira> it's mostly new members proposals today?
<mako> i'm catching up now
<mako> and thawing out my fingers
<Seveas> we haven't started yet 
<mako> give me one second
<mako> yes, i know ;P
<BlueT_> simira: i've been waiting fr it for a month :3
<BlueT_> s/fr/for/
<mako> alright
<mako> agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<mako> first up is Developer/Member governance processes
<mdke> mdz: are you around to discuss this too?
<mako> so you brought up a few issues here
<mako> do you mind if i break it down
<mdke> course not :)
<mako> one issues seems to be that launchpad information is out of date
<mako> there was a list i was maintaining by hand
<mako> which i still have
<mako> of people who had signed the CoC but they still need to go through the new process in LP
<mako> AFAIK, there has been no systematic attempt at doing this
<mako> there should be
<mako> folks in core-dev should be in ubuntu-members
<mdke> before joining core-dev?
<mako> well, i think that the group is a subgroup of members so they are implicitly members
<mako> is that right?
<Kamion> there was a systematic attempt to make sure at least core uploaders had signed the CoC at the time of the switch to Soyuz, because it was a technical requirement there IIRC
<elmo> mako: I think there should be
<elmo> s/there/it/
<elmo> checking
<mako> Kamion: right, i guess i did it before then
<mako> i noticed that i was not a member except implicitly through the CC IIRC
<elmo> hmm, it's not
<mdke> if that's the case (that core-dev is a subgroup of membership), it means the TB is approving them for membership as well as upload rights.
<elmo> I think ubuntu-core-dev should be a member of ubuntu-members
<elmo> but that'd require the TB to not jump our gun
<mdke> which in turn would slow down the process of getting upload rights, for example for employees
<mako> right
<mdke> unless they were automatically members
<mdke> that might make sense
<Kamion> the TB conducts a reasonably detailed interview with each core-dev candidate
<mako> right
<Kamion> personally I could probably see my way clear to considering that sufficient to pass the bar for membership
<mako> it's not exactly easy to get added to core-dev
<elmo> core-dev yes
<Kamion> ubuntu-dev would be a slightly different matter; the bar there is lower
<elmo> -dev is a little different
<elmo> and both ought to be members of ubuntu-members
* mako nods to elmo 
<Kamion> yeah
<mako> ok
<mako> so there's at least three issues here
<mako> (a) how is the stated policy out of sync with LP and how do we fix it (which one do we fix)?
<mako> (b) how should the policy/LP be changed or improved to make this work the way we think it should?
<mako> (c) how do we get people already in the system who were grandfathered or skipped steps in one way or another to go back and check the right boxes
<mako> honestly, (b) sounds like a paris dev summit topic
<Seveas> (c) is part of (a) if the answer of (a) is that lp is out of sync
<mdke> for a), you'd need to discuss with the TB about the -dev must be members thing
<mako> right
<mdke> that would be a change in policy, afaics
<mdke> although, I don't attend TB meeting much
<Kamion> if we wanted to deal with the meeting-delay problem, then the easiest approach might well be to agree some guidelines with the TB to make sure that we're happy that their ubuntu-dev procedure is at least as strong as our membership procedure
* mako nods to Kamion 
<elmo> given we've already delegated membership privs to edubuntu, kubuntu, delegating it indirectly to the TB, doesn't sound like much of a step
<mdke> that would be tricky to maintain consistent, IMO
<mdke> ah, that's a good point.
<elmo> provided, like kamion says, we ask them to step up their barrier to entry to match outs
* mako nods to elmo 
<simira> sounds sensible
<elmo> and I'm still a little concerned about their Q = 2, but that's not a big deal I guess
<mdke> nice idea.
<elmo> s/outs/ours/
<mdke> are the current requirements for -member status documented on the website?
<mdke> i figure they're on the wiki somewhere
<Seveas> mdke, http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes
<mdke> Seveas: "substantial contribution" is as far as it goes, or did I miss a page?
<mdke> oh no, there it is, my bad
<Seveas> "A person who wants to become a member should be engaged in a sustained level of contribution to the Ubuntu community. This can include coding, writing or documentation, the creation of art-work, music, testing, bug triage and verification, translation, advocacy, leadership of LoCo teams, etc. Contributions should be significant and visible. Anybody who is active in the Ubuntu community is a good 
<Seveas> candidate for Ubuntu membership."
<ompaul> mdke it is repeated here more or less  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto
<mako> mdke: substantian and sustained contribution
<mdke> yeah, my bad
<Seveas> So: who's going to coordinate this with the TB?
<mako> well
<mako> there is still the issue of what happens with the current core-dev members
<mako> who have not been put through the more rigorous process
<mako> sorry
<mako> the current -dev members
<mdke> shouldn't be hard to track em down, they're all quite active
<ajmitch> it'd only be inactive ones that may not be on launchpad
<mako> i think we could put core-dev into members unless the tb has any reservations about any candidates
<mako> which i suspect they do not
<Seveas> Most of them would be no-brainers for membership and a few meetings ago it was decided that that could be done outside the meetings
<Seveas> (core-dev)
<Kamion> I've got no reservations about anyone in -core-dev at the moment
* mako nods to Kamion 
<Lure> Can CC not just group approve all core-dev now?
<Kamion> apart from that dodgy "Matt Zimmerman" block
<Kamion> er, bloke
<LaserJock> hehe
<Kamion> Lure: no, people have to opt to join the team themselves, I don't know of a way to conscript people
<Lure> Kamion: right
<mdke> who is Chris Halls, I don't think I've met him around?
<cbx33> my apologies, I have to dash
<Seveas> There are 3 I haven't seen a lot (Thom May, Charles Majola and Chris Halls), but I expect you know them much better than I do
<Kamion> mdke: haggai, used to do Kubuntu
<mdke> what's his irc nick?
<Kamion> and OpenOffice
<filhocf> Chris Halls is a DD.
<mdke> ah, gotcha
<Kamion> Thom May is retired from Ubuntu really, dunno if he cares
<simira> mdke: he was in Mataro, at lease
<Kamion> Charles is one of the Impi crowd in .za
<simira> least*
<ogra> Kamion, you mean that opportunistic troublemaker mdz ?
<ogra> :)
<Kamion> ogra: right
<dholbach> He does, I had a conversation with him already.
<Kamion> dholbach: who?
<dholbach> I'm referring to Thom.
<dholbach> He'd like to get involved again, esp. with apache.
<mdke> it would definitely be good to chase up those who haven't signed the CoC in there, and ask them to, even if they've signed it by other means
<Kamion> dholbach: ah, cool
<ogra> dholbach, that'd be so great !
* mako nods to mdke 
<mako> mdke: if you have a list, i'm happy to spam them
<mdke> mako: alright.
<Kamion> ok, anything else before we move on?
<Kamion> 22:29 < Seveas> So: who's going to coordinate this with the TB?
<Kamion> I guess
<mdke> mdz expressed an interest, I can summarise the meeting in an email for him, if you like
<mako> i think that's good
* mako nods to mdke 
<Kamion> mdke: that would be good if you're willing, please cc community-council@lists
<mdke> i'll cc it to community-council so you can check for accuracy
<mdke> yeah
<Kamion> we can follow up if there are further questions, or I can talk with him on the phone, or something
<mako> yes
<mako> is there any other non-member business?
<mako> before we move on to that?
<Meyer> yes
<mako> Meyer: shoot
<Meyer> i'd like to bring something up
<Meyer> i think it was mdke who wrote about Quallity Assurance in translations..
<Meyer> and it has become a big problem..
* simira agrees, we need a solution to that
<Meyer> i was thinking if there are any plans to improve LP on that matter
<Meyer> for instance, we can't know who made a bad translation
<Seveas> Meyer: the NL team has taken a drastic approach to it: kick everyone from the team and do all via the mailinglist
<mdke> Meyer: there has been a discuss about improving rosetta on the rosetta mailing list. The CC: can't do anything about it
<Kamion> I'm not sure that's something any of the CC can answer; I'd suggest bringing it up on launchpad-users@lists if it hasn't been done already
<Meyer> so it's hard to take those people out
<Kamion> or rosetta-users@
<Seveas> Kamion, agreed
<simira> true
<mdke> Kamion: it's been discussed in depth and carlos and jordi are collecting feature requests. It's difficult to do more. 
<simira> will it be a Paris issue?
<mdke> part of the problem lies with translation groups, I'd suggest continuing the discussion on loco-contacts
<mako> right, this sounds like there is some missing functionality in lp
<Meyer> ok.. thanks.. i just wanted to know how it was going on
<Kamion> simira: Paris is for Ubuntu, not LP, afaik
<Surak> Indeed. And there's no "default" glossary to keep translations coherent. Bug 35774
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 35774 in rosetta "Some sort of glossary integrated to rosetta" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/35774
<simira> *sigh* Kamion: LP improvements would support Ubuntu, right? :p
<mdke> simira: there are separate conferences for launchpad.
<Kamion> simira: sure, but the LP developers won't be there, for the most part
<Lure> With Dapper I started to follow Flight's and daily updates, updating my laptop t
<Lure> esting page. As klaptop was unmaintained, I looked into getting kpowersave up-to
<Lure> -date (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuPowersave), but then got distracted with wireless stuff (network-manager 0.6.x), worked on packaging knetworkmanager (and doing related bug triage on forums).
<Lure> sorry
* Kamion spots an itchy mouse finger
<Seveas> Lure, please wait your turn ;)
<simira> mdke, Kamion: yesyes, I know...
<Seveas> Shall we move on to members?
<Kamion> yes, let's
<mako> heh
<mako> i think Lure has already done so
<ogra> :)
<Tonio_> hehe
<Seveas> Toadstool, you're up.
<Toadstool> thanks Seveas, hi everybody
<Toadstool> I am Jrmie Corbier, a 21 years old french telecommunications engineering
<Toadstool> student. I am an Ubuntu user since Warty. I spend a lot of time on irc helping
<Toadstool> users. I am also quite used to packaging since I am the maintainer of
<Toadstool> wide-dhcpv6 package for Debian (version 20060322-2 uploaded today) and
<Toadstool> Ubuntu. I am a member of the Bug Squad and try to file/triage/fix as many bugs
<Toadstool> as possible.
<Toadstool> For the future, I want to keep on helping Ubuntu users on irc and
<Toadstool> in real life as the community is one of the main Ubuntu strengths. I also plan
<Toadstool> to continue helping with bugs, maybe package more applications and above all
<Toadstool> I would like to become a MOTU and help making the future releases rock.
<ogra> Toadstool, is very present in #ubuntu-bugs
<Seveas> And on malone
<Gloubiboulga> and in #ubuntu-fr{,-testing}
<dholbach> Yeah, he's one of the assets in the BugSquad and we're all pleased to have him there.
<Seveas> \o/ for bug triaging, he's doing a good amount of work
<ogra> yeah
<Toadstool> thanks guys :)
* dholbach hugs Toadstool
<lucas> I've seen Jeremie working very efficiently on some bugs I didn't have time to work on
<LaserJock> Toadstool has been contributing to #ubuntu-motu for a while now
<Seveas> Toadstool, the CC is now scrutinizing (sp?) your wikipage - beware 
<Toadstool> :)
<Seveas> Toadstool, it takes them quite long. Could be bad news ;)
<Kamion> no problems here, fwiw; I've dealt with Jeremie once or twice and he's seemed competent; testimonials are good
<Toadstool> I'll be back :p
<mako> yes, looks good by me
<elmo> yeah, ack
<Seveas> Kamion: afaik he hasn't yet closed one of your bugs by accident ;)
<Kamion> Seveas: is that what you call it? ;)
<Seveas> ok, that's 3
<ogra> welcome Toadstool then :)
<mako> Toadstool: welcome
<Seveas> Congratulations Toadstool!
<sfllaw> Toadstool: Congrats!
<Gloubiboulga> Toadstool, congrats :)
<Toadstool> thanks everybody :)
<mdke> well done Toadstool 
<ogra> that was really fast :)
<Seveas> Bluekuja, you're uo
<dholbach> CONGRATS!
<Seveas> up even...
<Bluekuja> ok thanks seveas
<Bluekuja> My name is Andrea Veri and I live in Italy,im finishing high school and I'm a great Ubuntu and Free software fan. My wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreaVeri, Launchpad one https://launchpad.net/people/bluekuja.I'm an active member of edubuntu team,contributing with advocacy(right now I'm working on a great specification, the Edubuntu Schools Advocacy Manifesto,that can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuS
<Bluekuja> choolAdvocacy) in italian schools, testing new releases and providing bugs reports for the testing team.I have made several wiki pages and a lot of translations too,also I'm contributing to malone reporting,fixing and adding comments to a lot of differents bugs.I'm working on a project related to my country,the edubuntu italian team,that will be related to the Ubuntu one. My future with Ubuntu is available at the bottom 
<Bluekuja> of my wiki.
<Toadstool> i'm so glad to be part of the ubuntu members ;)
<Surak> Toadstool: Congratulations
<ogra> Bluekuja, too bad https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy was wrapped
<Kamion> what do the Edubuntu folk think?
<ogra> its an awesome page 
<mdke> Bluekuja has been active for a several weeks in the italian translation team. He is also looking to set out a sub-group for edubuntu within the italian team. He is very enthusiastic
<Bluekuja> tnx mdke :)
<Kamion> Bluekuja is clearly trying to collect the set of team memberships
<Seveas> Bluekuja, hasn't been active for a really long time yet, but imho makes up for that with almost endless enthousiasm
<Bluekuja> haha no
<mdke> Kamion: yes, that is true.
<ogra> Bluekuja, is a  very helpful contributor and even i'd have preferred he'd have applied in tomorrows EC meeting he has my full support
<LaserJock> I've worked with Bluekuja a bit on the EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy wiki page and he is a real enthusiastic team player
<Kamion> ogra: would the Edubuntu council have approved him, and on what grounds?
<ogra> sine he wanted to apply lats CC already and i talked to JaneW, i think i can say that she'd support him too (in fact she stayed up long for lats CC)
<ogra> *last
<ogra> he does a lot of dood documentation work, helps people with support in #edubuntu
<mako> i recieved this before the meeting
<mako> 15:23 <cbx33> Bluekuja has been a great inspiration to my beginnings in ubuntu/edubuntu work, his enthusiasm has been fantastic, and his help on the schools advocacy project has been untiring.  Definitly a dedicated ubuntu/edubuntu contributor.  Great work Bluekuja, keep it up.
<ogra> the EC would have approved him 
<mako> 15:24 <cbx33> thank you mako, hope to speak to you again soon
<cbx33> :)
<Bluekuja> tnx cbx33 :)
<ogra> s/dood/good/
<cbx33> i made it just :)
<mako> cbx33: what are you still doing here?
<cbx33> i just managed to pop in on my pocket pc
<Kamion> right, well I'm happy; constructive advocacy work, translation work, and the Edubuntu lot clearly like him
<ogra> absolutely
<Seveas> yay, one down 
* mako nods
<mako> sounds fine
<Seveas> 2 down!
<Seveas> elmo, ?
<elmo> yeah, ack I guess
<ogra> yay
<ogra> welcome Bluekuja 
<Surak> Bluekuja: congrats
<Bluekuja> Thanks Very much
<Seveas> good guess ;) Welcome Bluekuja !
<mdke> well done Bluekuja, keep it up
<sfllaw> Bluekuja: Congrats!
<Bluekuja> to all
<ogra> happy to finally have you aboard !
<Toadstool> congrats Bluekuja :)
<cbx33> congrats
<BlueT_> Bluekuja: congradulations :)
<Tonio_> congrats Bluekuja
<ogra> JaneW will be pleased
<Bluekuja> ogra: thank you a lot
<Seveas> Lure, please paste the complete intro now ;)
<Lure> Luka Renko, 32, from Slovenia. SW R&D manager in my day life, hacking Kubuntu for hobby (to stay in touch with engineering work ;-)). Started to contribute when I found out it is easy to so.
<Lure> With Dapper I started to follow Flight's and daily updates, updating my laptop t
<Lure> esting page. As klaptop was unmaintained, I looked into getting kpowersave up-to
<Lure> -date (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuPowersave), but then got distracted with wireless stuff (network-manager 0.6.x), worked on packaging knetworkmanager (and doing related bug triage on forums).
<Lure> Currently working on bug triage and fixing on KDE code that needs love. For Edgy I would like to help getting laptop infrastructure even further for Kubuntu (hopefully drop klaptop, improve hotkeys, better integration with Ubuntu laptop base).
<Lure> ;-)
<Kamion> Bluekuja: (I'd suggest concentrating on fewer teams and doing them well rather than trying to set the record for most teams joined, BTW :-))
<Tonio_> Lure is very active in the kubuntu debugging session
<Bluekuja> kamion: thanks for the suggestion, its really appreciated
<Bluekuja> :)
<Tonio_> he did major stuff concerning the laptop, packaging kpowersave, and has been of a great help for the implementation of knetworkmanager
<ogra> Lure is also noticeable active in #ubuntu-devel recently
<Kamion> FWIW Lure has been very helpful to me in Ubiquity bug triage work, helping me keep my head above water under the flood of mail
<Tonio_> I definitly support his membership
<Seveas> Yes, lure and ubuquity dupolicate bugs are an often-seen duo
<Seveas> (and my spelling is going downhill fast, must be the new microsoft keyboard)
<ogra> Seveas, eek, now i know what you ment with evil :)
<elmo> Riddell: any comments?
<Seveas> hehe
<Kamion> (well, ubiquity has been setting records for duplicate bugs thanks to the crash handler - not that I'm complaining, it was sort of intentional)
<Tonio_> he also released a great amount of patches to stabilise one of the most bugging admin tool : knetworkcong
<Tonio_> s/cong/conf
<Seveas> I'd love to hear some comments from core Kubuntu developers.. 
<elmo> I don't think Riddell's around
<Tonio_> Seveas: raphink is in germany for linuxtag, so only Riddell may talk...
<elmo> in any event, I'm happy enough on the basis of the evidence on the wiki page
<elmo> (i.e. ack
<Seveas> nice, one down 
* mako nods 
<mako> yes, lure is fine by me
<mako> lots of good stuff
<Kamion> sorry, I pretty much meant ack above, I've been working with Lure a reasonable amount and my experiences have all been positive, plus the wiki page suggests more goodness
<mdke> well done Lure 
<mdke> nice work
<Lure> Thanks for support - proud to be member!
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-04-30
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
<avoine> @schedule Canada
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 01 May 11:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 14:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 16:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 16:00: Technical Board
<nifan> @schedule Lisbon
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Lisbon: 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 19:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board
<nifan> neat
<arualavi> @schedule Barcelona
<arualavi> @schedule Andorra
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Andorra: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-05-01
<txwikinger2> @schedule london
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 19:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board
<nifan> b'dia
<AlexLatchford> @schedule London
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 19:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Kernel Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 May 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 02 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 02 May 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 May 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 02 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 02 May 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Mozilla Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 02 May 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm here
<robitaille> and it sounds like you are the only one... :)
<asac> oh sorry
<asac> i am here now as well
<asac> had a phone call and time was running
<hjmf> I'm here but busy at this moment :(
<asac> gnomefreak: AlexLatchford hjmf here?
<AlexLatchford> Howdy
<gnomefreak> ok sorry im late
<AlexLatchford> Hmm, not many items on the agenda..
<AlexLatchford> please feel free to add some asap
<asac> well we have an agenda
<gnomefreak> does someone want to chair so i can upload tbird?
<AlexLatchford> Freddy's turn?
<AlexLatchford> or do you want me to do it?
<Admiral_Chicago> it is my turn
<Admiral_Chicago> :)
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll do it
<gnomefreak> either or. if i do it we will be moving slow
<AlexLatchford> :) sure
<asac> go ahead Admiral_Chicago
<hjmf> now I'm really here too :)
<AlexLatchford> Admiral_Chicago: we starting?
<AlexLatchford> meh..
<hjmf> ...
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: start with GUI consistency?
<AlexLatchford> Yeah guess so
<AlexLatchford> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/42263
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 42263 in firefox "Toolbar display should be "Icons and text" for consistency" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
<hjmf> Admiral_Chicago has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
<AlexLatchford> Dunno if this is a real decision to make or not, but this was brought up that the GUI across the entire desktop is Icon + Wording..
<AlexLatchford> Firefox is one of very few applications that does not follow this pattern..
<gnomefreak> im personally happy with the way it is. i do believe you can set it to use both
<AlexLatchford> Yes, this is more the decision to turn it on by default to icons + text
<gnomefreak> adding text will make window show less (maybe only a little bit) but still shortens the page
<AlexLatchford> (You can set this by right clicking on the toolbar and hitting customise.. )
<hjmf> IMHO icons are quite clear and I agree with gnomefreak
<AlexLatchford> asac: opinion?
<Admiral_Chicago> sorry I got disconnected
<gnomefreak> asac: what do you think?
<gnomefreak> you hover over icons gives you text
<gnomefreak> we saw
<gnomefreak> :)
<AlexLatchford> I agree that the icons are very clear, but for consistencies sake, would it be better to use text also, I mean users can remove it if they wish
<gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: we started with GUi
<AlexLatchford> Admiral_Chicago: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/42263
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 42263 in firefox "Toolbar display should be "Icons and text" for consistency" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
* gnomefreak looking for less clutter i guess in tool bars
<gnomefreak> lets get everyone else to pull text out of apps J/K
<Admiral_Chicago> how is it built in XP?
<Admiral_Chicago> or Mac
<AlexLatchford> I believe without is default for firefox across the versions
<AlexLatchford> but the rest of Ubuntu uses Icons + Text
<Admiral_Chicago> iirc, that is the case as well
<hjmf> maybe because ff ends up with 4 horizontal bars
<hjmf> menu, icons, markers, tags ...
<hjmf> *tabs
<AlexLatchford> hjmf: hmm, yes when you say that I see it
<gnomefreak> im not seeing a good reason to change it yet. the reason being given is because everyone else does it
<AlexLatchford> well yes, thats the issue, I personally would change it back if text was there..
<gnomefreak> im not saying its a bad idea at all
<hjmf> yes, no big deal I would change it back too
<Admiral_Chicago> i think with the menu bar, the nav bar and the bookmarks folders, another row of text is intentionally left out
<gnomefreak> what other browsers in ubuntu have text and icons?
<AlexLatchford> gnomefreak: not sure..
<gnomefreak> epiphany does and iceape does atm
<gnomefreak> i dont have others to test right now
<AlexLatchford> me neither
<hjmf> opera seg fault for me right now :0
<AlexLatchford> hmm.. well Thunderbird has Icons + Text
<Admiral_Chicago> Konqui does not iirc
<Admiral_Chicago> let me check
<AlexLatchford> is asac about?
<Admiral_Chicago> not yet
<Admiral_Chicago> i think KDE4 will implement that
<AlexLatchford> KDE4 will have icons + text?
<gnomefreak> i dont have opera installed since my hd crashed
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: i think so yes
<AlexLatchford> hmm.. okay
<AlexLatchford> Go for a vote on this?
<hjmf> I had a version of mozilla and it doesnt
<gnomefreak> -1
<AlexLatchford> +1
<hjmf> -1
<AlexLatchford> (for desktop consistency reasons)
<gnomefreak> how many people on that bug replied they want it?
<AlexLatchford> good point..
<ogra> how is hardcoding such a thing consistent ? make it read the default desktop settings and use what they define
<gnomefreak> if its only 1 or 2 than no sense in it
<Admiral_Chicago> what would +1/-1 mean?
<hjmf> think on small screens 15' or lower
<AlexLatchford> +1 for adding text.. -1 for leaving it off
<AlexLatchford> gnomefreak: you have a very good point there
<hjmf> its an *aditional* bar
<Admiral_Chicago> -1
<gnomefreak> we are here to please the masses not 3 people IMO
<AlexLatchford> cool
<AlexLatchford> Okay, I will close the report now then
<AlexLatchford> with the decision..
<gnomefreak> wait for asac on that
<gnomefreak> he may have a point we are not seeing
<hjmf> yes, lets wait till the meeting finishes
<hjmf> if he is around which i believe
<Admiral_Chicago> i suggest we move on and we can poll alex when he returns
<AlexLatchford> okay.. I will draft the issue reply :P
<AlexLatchford> okay
<gnomefreak> btw repo is down atm
<Admiral_Chicago> give me a sec
<hjmf> k
<gnomefreak> mv Packages.gz dists/feisty/main/binary-i386/
<gnomefreak> oh shoot
<gnomefreak> ignore that
<Admiral_Chicago> next agenda item: Mozilla Testing Team by Alex.
<AlexLatchford> okay
<Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: talking to your terminal again?
<gnomefreak> yep :)
<AlexLatchford> Well this was something we brought up last meeting..
<Admiral_Chicago> i do that too after a while, try to run commands in irssi
<AlexLatchford> Getting a team of people who are contactable for testing specific issues
<AlexLatchford> maybe via a mailing list or something
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: im gonna ok this one. we have a few (10+) testing preview archive atm
<Admiral_Chicago> oh crap, let me add something to the agenda. link in a sec
<AlexLatchford> Think we should try to set up a mailing list, LP team to get it going a bit more formally
<gnomefreak> the problem being and this i knew before hand. we are not getting the testing on what NEEDS to be tested
<Admiral_Chicago> i disagree with the ML and LP team however
<AlexLatchford> Is the changelog listing ideas we discussed last meeting going anywhere?
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm not sure there is enough people to be pushing for those things
<gnomefreak> tbird2 and iceape are the packages i wanted tested more than anything because they are going into gutsy. ffox3 will not be in gutsy
<AlexLatchford> agreed
<AlexLatchford> the team will be formally tasked then to test packages that need testing.. say setting a 2 weekly testing agenda or something
<AlexLatchford> so you can test specific issues intensely
<Admiral_Chicago> AlexLatchford: that i like more than just setting the team, I wouldn't care if you used the MT ML for that
<gnomefreak> can we please defer this one more meeting?
<hjmf> maybe a team and people from it reporting bugs in LP (for karma points) can be motivational for them
<AlexLatchford> hjmf: yes, it can be an introduction into the team
<asac> damn :)
<Riddell> AlexLatchford: yes, kde 4 apps have icons+text
<AlexLatchford> currently there are not many *easy* tasks for new people..
<asac> that happens if you stare in wrong channel
<Admiral_Chicago> crap, I realized I have to run to class in 5, maybe 10 minutes.
<AlexLatchford> Riddell: ta :)
<gnomefreak> asac: lol
<hjmf> lol
<gnomefreak> asac: +1 or -1 for icons and text?
<AlexLatchford> heh
<asac> ouch let me read it
<Admiral_Chicago> okay, AlexLatchford i'll have to cut in front of you, I hope that's okay
<AlexLatchford> gnomefreak: you wish to defer the testing decision until the next meeting?
<AlexLatchford> Admiral_Chicago: sure thing bud :)
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: i would like to get with asac on this and come up with a way to do this nicely
<asac> what is current consent on the text icon stuff?
<Admiral_Chicago> Okay, on to the last agenda item (sorry for the jumping) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<gnomefreak> -1 for more clutter
<Admiral_Chicago> asac: -1 from me. (against text and icons)
<AlexLatchford> 0 from me now, seeing the light of 15" monitior discussion
<AlexLatchford> leaning towards -1
<asac> so epiphany has text + icons by default? mine hasn't :)
<gnomefreak> yes mine dies
<gnomefreak> and i didnt change it
<asac> i am -1 ... firefox should be the way its known to users of other OSes
* gnomefreak hates text but i havent used it alot
<AlexLatchford> okay settled
<ogra> asac, epi uses gnomes default settings ...
<Admiral_Chicago> okay we will come back to the discussion on testing team
<gnomefreak> yay it works :)
<asac> ogra: yes ... i was just not sure, because i changed it long ago i guess
<Admiral_Chicago> I have to push this last agenda item before class, we started a bit later than I hoped
<hjmf> -1 as stated above (hope not too late) :)
<asac> Admiral_Chicago: ok whats the state?
<Admiral_Chicago> We had decided earlier to create a Mozilla Council with david, alex, alex, john, hjmf and myself
<gnomefreak> i would like to get all mozilla apps in testing repo before we have  ateam
<Admiral_Chicago> asac: we are hoping, sorry
<Admiral_Chicago> hopping around*
<asac> Yes, clue files, right?
<Admiral_Chicago> so, we also decided to defer it from being active until after Feisty was out
<Admiral_Chicago> sorry, everyone look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<Admiral_Chicago> asac: no, mozill council
<asac> ah ok
<asac> what do you suggest?
<Admiral_Chicago> now that feisty is out, we should vote to activate the council officially
<hjmf> ah ok I was lost ;)
* gnomefreak thought it was already.
<Admiral_Chicago> so we would have a council which works actively in Mozilla and helps bring in new people
<gnomefreak> bad part everyone here is on the council so is a vote needed?
<hjmf> all the MT is the council right now
<Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: no, we said it wouldn't take effect until after feisty
<gnomefreak> oh
<Admiral_Chicago> hjmf: there are a few people on the LP page (iirc) that are not
<gnomefreak> correct
<hjmf> ok lets formally activated it
<hjmf> *activate
<gnomefreak> lol
<asac> yeah
<asac> done i think
<Admiral_Chicago> yep, votes to active it?
<Admiral_Chicago> +1
<AlexLatchford> +1
<gnomefreak> thats what im thinking (how do we do that)
<AlexLatchford> what does activation entail?
<gnomefreak> should we maybe bring it to CC?
<Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: david said there was no need
<AlexLatchford> yeah he did
<Admiral_Chicago> we would just fall under the CC
<gnomefreak> ok  than its activated. what next :)
<AlexLatchford> believe he asked Jono
<hjmf> +1
* gnomefreak needs to get up with jono and/or elkbuntu  one of these days
<Admiral_Chicago> progress of clue files...
<AlexLatchford> (Testing Team is deferred until next meeting yes?)
<Admiral_Chicago> Alex has worked on a lot on bughelper and we have a lot of progress
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: yeah because im not sure how much ill be here in the next 2 weeks
<gnomefreak> and ill forget with gutsy packages.
<Admiral_Chicago> now that LP is out of beta, we can open up the mentoring to everyone
<asac> i think we are in a good state from bughelper, though we still don't have split output of bughelper results .. .e.g. one page by task
<Admiral_Chicago> So I think Alex, I can get to pumping out some good clue files
<gnomefreak> if asac stays up long enough i will talk to him in #u-mt about a few things withit
<hjmf> asac: right, actual page is a mess
<asac> anyway ... we could start to populate clue files with prominent stack signatures
<Admiral_Chicago> I have to run to class. someone please take over as chair
<asac> so it starts to find dups for us
<Admiral_Chicago> good luck guys
<hjmf> cu
<asac> maybe we can even write something to automatically generate stack signature clue snippets
<asac> from MASTER bugs
<asac> hjmf: since you work most on stack sigs, you think you can add new MASTER bug signatures to bughelper clues?
<AlexLatchford> sounds like a good idea..
<hjmf> yes I can, but first I still have to master bughelper docs :-P
<AlexLatchford> how is the retrace backlog situation going?
<asac> i think hjmf fixed it :)
<asac> with amazing work
<hjmf> :)
<AlexLatchford> Good job bud :)
<hjmf> thank you guys
<asac> Karma: 6797
<hjmf> the problem with bughelper finding dups is that first the bugs have to be retraced
<asac> yes right
<hjmf> and right now each retrace I do automatically searches for stack signatures so dups are easily founded w/o bughelper
<asac> how do you search for duplicate stack signatures?
<asac> just search field?
<hjmf> as long as they are in summary
<hjmf> [@xxxxx] 
<asac> yes ... soon apport will automatically add need-XXX-retrace tag on submission
<asac> then we will have retraced results ... but in attachments
<asac> thats when bughelper stuff might come handy
<hjmf>  firefox -remote "openurl(https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/${PACKAGE}/+bugs?field.searchtext=${STACK_SIGNATURE}&orderby=-datecreated,new-window)"
<hjmf> asac: right
<asac> what is stack signature for you? ... each single line?
<asac> e.g. do you extract it automatically?
<hjmf> =
<hjmf>         eval "$(strip_stack $BUG_RETRACE | sed -n '/#4 / {s/#4 \+\(.[^ ] *\) .*/STACK_SIGNATURE="\1"/p;}; /#5 / {s/#5 \+\(.[^ ] *\) .*/STACK_SIGNATURE_1="\1"/p;q}')"
<hjmf> its usually the #4 stack
<hjmf> after the #3 <....>
<hjmf> #3 <signal handler called>
<asac> how many don't fit into that pattern?
<hjmf> not too many
<hjmf> and I look at them always
<hjmf> as it is interactive
<hjmf> :)
<asac> hmm
<hjmf> it is working with most of the reports and matches upstream searches too
<hjmf> those ones are done by hand though
<asac> how do you do upstream searches?
<asac> ... or what do you mean by "matches upstream searches too" ?
<hjmf> http://talkback-public.mozilla.org/search/start.jsp
<hjmf> but by hand
<hjmf> http://talkback-public.mozilla.org/reports/firefox/
<hjmf> .. thunder bird
<hjmf> ah, sorry, I was talking about the stacktraces from upstream reports
<asac> oh ok.
<asac> so what do you do with them atm?
<hjmf> ?
<asac> i mean how do you integrate upstream talkbacks in your current helper tool?
<hjmf> As I stated that work is manual, it is not integrated, though I had a couple of scripts to 'beautify' our stacks to compare better
<hjmf> with upstream ones
<asac> ah ok
<hjmf> sed stuff to  leave function calls
<asac> so you have some kind of stack "normalization" code?
<hjmf> yes
<gnomefreak> is the meeting over?
<asac> we are still talking :)
<hjmf> I think we are boring you :)
<gnomefreak> ah ok
<asac> still no idea what to do with clue files i guess
<gnomefreak> no i have other things im tending to
<asac> actually on the long run it would make sense to have clues for stack duplicates
<asac> question is whether we can generate them automatically
<asac> e.g. from MASTER bug title
<hjmf> asac: I agree. But currently is no need
<hjmf> but I can work on them
<asac> hjmf: how about generating them from search results and bug title
<asac> should be pretty simple, right?
<hjmf> yes
<asac> good ... ok ... so no need to hurry in order to match crash duplicates
<hjmf> though my idea in short term is working in pythonize my scripts to integrate them with the classes in bughelper, apport, and so on
<asac> hjmf: that would be magnificent
<asac> we have launchpad integration for instance
<hjmf> yes but I wont be very confident as of my way of scripting
<hjmf> :)
<asac> why?
<hjmf> as it works it's ok for me
<hjmf> even if it is a mess :)
<asac> hehe
<asac> if you plan to improve launchpad integration and bughelper ocode, there are probably plenty of people willing to help
<hjmf> I'll do some draft and I'll push to bzr as a branch or something
<asac> yes
<asac> thats good
<asac> ok ... we have another item on agenda?
<asac> testing team moved to next?
<AlexLatchford> asac: yes
<asac> good ... then i think we are over
<asac> sorry again for being so late here :/
<hjmf> :)
<AlexLatchford> cool cool, asac can you update the agenda with the clue file decision, I was on another channel, and not nothing about clue files yet
<asac> AlexLatchford: which page
<AlexLatchford> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<AlexLatchford> just put in a short sentence about the decision made, keeps track of the decisions until I clear the page and make the minutes
<asac> yep done
<asac> hmmm wiki is slow on writing
<asac> now changed
<AlexLatchford> hmm, ta
<hjmf> cu
<arualavi> @schedule Andorra
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Andorra: Current meeting: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 02 May 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<nifan> b'noite
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-05-02
<sid> @schedule New_York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 02 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 16:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 16:00: Technical Board | 09 May 16:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<nifan> b'dia
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 May 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 May 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
<nifan> b'tarde
<nifan> schedule lisbon
<nifan> @schedule lisbon
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Lisbon: 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board | 09 May 21:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 16:00: Kernel Team
<mbudde> Ser ikke ud til at have hjulpet srlig meget :(
<mbudde> Damn, wrong channel :S
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 02 May 15:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 15:00: Technical Board | 09 May 15:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 10:00: Kernel Team
<fijam> hello
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
<ranf> hi
<ranf> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00: Kernel Team
<j1mc> any xubunteros here?
<ranf> yes
<j1mc> hey ranf.
<j1mc> unfortunately, i can't stick around, even though i'm the one who scheduled the meeting.
<arualavi> somebody_, no meeting?
<arualavi> mean: so, no meeting?
<ranf> doesn't look like it
<j1mc> arualavi: ranf sorry, it looks like no meeting.
<ranf> no big problem
<arualavi> j1mc, ok next time
<j1mc> arualavi: ranf . . .   thanks  :-)
<j1mc> talk to you later  :)
<Admiral_Chicago> sorry just got here, did I miss much?
<asac> Admiral_Chicago: meeting cancelled?
<Admiral_Chicago> asac: the xubuntu one? it was supposed to be at 3
<lamont> there was a meeting here about 5 hours ago....
<Admiral_Chicago> 3pm here, 20 UTC, it is now 21 UTC here
<Admiral_Chicago> i think...
<posingaspopular> it's 21 utc for us
<ajmitch> heh
<lamont> same here. :-)
<Admiral_Chicago> crap, totally forgot about the meeting, I think we all did
<robitaille> Admiral_Chicago:  the meeting was canceled 40 minutes ago when only a couple of people showed up
<Admiral_Chicago> thank you robitaille
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-05-03
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<popey> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 03 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00: Edubuntu
<vciaglia> @schedule italy
<Treenaks> @schedule Amsterdam
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<vciaglia> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<nifan> b'dia
<mjlamora> first sip of first cup... am I in the meeting?
<Lure> @schedule ljubljana
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<dholbach> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
<pkl_> @schedule london
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board | 09 May 21:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 13:00: Edubuntu
<mdz> good afternoon
<asac> hi mdz
<pkl_> hi
<cjwatson> hi
<asac> so we do meet or not?
<mdz> I just got out of a meeting with soyuz folk
<mdz> I did not have the chance to copy activity summaries, but I did create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070503
<fabbione> re
<mdz> and I do want to talk to everyone about UDS
<mdz> are we all here?
* dholbach is
<Mithrandir> aye
<cjwatson> kenel I suspect the kernel team won't be, aside from pkl
<asac> pitti will be here soon
<cjwatson> heno is travelling
<seb128> meeting or not meeting?
<fabbione> meeting
<asac> +1 ;)
<mdz> Scott is also travelling, of course
<mdz> mvo,Riddell,Mithrandir: ping
<dholbach> mvo_: ^
<fabbione> Mithrandir is here
<bdmurray> bryce is travelling atm I think
<dholbach> mvo_ will be here shortly
<mdz> bdmurray: oh?
<cjwatson> oh, yes, bryce is at the LGM
<pitti> hi, sorry for being late
<bdmurray> to Montreal?
<seb128> mdz: he sent a mail on warthogs about travelling 3-4 and 4-5
<mdz> ah, right
<mdz> anyway, my only agenda item is to check in with everyone regarding their preparation for UDS
<mdz> a draft schedule is up at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/uds-sevilla/
<mdz> and workshops with no preparation done are outlined in red
* mvo_ is here
<mdz> that outline disappears when an agenda is added to the XML for the schedule
<seb128> cjwatson: "Apport cooperation with Gnome upstream" is planned on the 10th but fer and bkor (GNOME guys interested in that) are register until the 9th only
<cjwatson> yeah, I'd seen that in scrollback
<seb128> k
<mdz> cjwatson: bryce's don't seem to be done
<cjwatson> give me a moment to see if it can be rearranged
<pitti> we can either move it, or just have that one be scheduled automatically and devote that slot to any other of the 5 apport specs
<iwj> Can I have a slot for the grub boot device identification problem ?
<iwj> slot> Plus participation from people with useful knowledge :-).
<cjwatson> mdz: of the ones that aren't follow-on from MtV, kyle was due to prepare background for X, a while back; I'll check on that when he next checks in
<cjwatson> iwj: can it be autoscheduled?
<iwj> cjwatson: I think I need kernel guys and perhaps someone like you with some installer knowledge.
<cjwatson> seb128: can you /msg me fer and bkor's real names?
<pitti> btw, we can have a free slot at Friday; Riddell and I quickly talked about it, we don't really need a session for Kubuntu restricted manager
<iwj> The alternative to a core scheduled item is a corridor bof I think.
<pitti> maybe we should just run through all them from the top
<cjwatson> iwj: my time is pretty tight, though evand may be able to help to some extent
<iwj> cjwatson: Mmm.
<fabbione> iwj: do you need a generic installer guy or ubiquity?
<iwj> Generic.
<iwj> It's for matching up devices between installation and booting.
<iwj> I mean, between BIOS and Linux, really.
<cjwatson> seb128,pitti: I'll try to arrange some kind of rescheduling of thatt one
<cjwatson> that
<fabbione> iwj: ok.. i might be able to help you there (installer side)
<pitti> cjwatson: encrypted file systems is currently lead by Keybuk; do you think you can take it? it's heavily installer dependent
<mdz> iwj: that sounds like it would be a good subject for a sprint with some upstream bootloader folks
<iwj> mdz: Err, I don't think it warrants a sprint.
<cjwatson> huh, bkor's LP ID is "bugzilla-ubuntu"
<seb128> cjwatson: thanks
<mdz> iwj: then why are we discussing it?
<iwj> And I think the problem is as much a Linux problem (if not more so) than a bootloader problem.
<pitti> cjwatson: well, he works on Gnome bugzilla
<cjwatson> mdz: that would imply grub2; none of the relevant upstream folks care about grub any more
<iwj> I mean, it doesn't warrant a whole sprint.
<iwj> It ought to be discussed in person.  Worth about a bof.
<mdz> cjwatson: I don't see a problem with that
<seb128> cjwatson: weird, I'm not sure if he uses launchpad bug he's the bugzilla.gnome.org admin
<cjwatson> mdz: it's a pretty serious issue actually; there are a huge number of bugs relevant to it
<seb128> s/bug/but
<mvo_> iwj: is that essential about bug #8497 ? or something complettely different?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 8497 in grub "grub guessed BIOS disk order incorrectly" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8497
<iwj> mvo_: That and the dozens of similar bugs, yes.
<mdz> cjwatson: if it's a serious issue which needs to be resolved, it's worth getting the stakeholders together  and hashing it out properly
<cjwatson> and it could be tied into our UUID changes too in some ways
<cjwatson> mdz: the problem is that we have repeatedly rejected grub2 as not ready yet ...
<iwj> I've just looked at the grub2 code again.
<iwj> It's not ready yet.
<iwj> And it doesn't solve this problem anyway.
<mdz> cjwatson: we are not the only ones with this problem, and it's worth talking to the other people
<mdz> we've had this problem for years now
<cjwatson> I guess I agree, but it might help if we could agree internally what we wanted first!
<mdz> I guess I didn't realize there was a disagreement
<iwj> mdz: It's getting lots more severe, because our Linux device discovery is constantly getting generating less predictable orderings.
<mdz> what is the disagreement?
<iwj> SATA is doing it, particularly.
<mdz> iwj: what does that have to do with grub?
<cjwatson> mdz: not so much a disagreement as that we really have no clue what the desired final answer ought to look like, and I think it's going to take kernel experience as well as bootloader experience; how many people do you want to drag to a sprint about this one subject?
<iwj> The stuff that sets up grub needs to know BIOS disk numbers.  These used to be predictable because Linux and the BIOS used to (mostly) detect stuff in the same predictable order.
<iwj> What cjwatson said.
<mdz> cjwatson: a sprint isn't a punishment, it's a chance to work on the problem
<cjwatson> mdz: I wasn't implying it was, but it's also expensive
<iwj> Can we please have a bof at UDS and then we'll see if we want a sprint or not ?
<mdz> and the fact that we need people with all of the relevant backgrounds is a good reason to plan it, rather than trying to squeeze it into UDS
<iwj> I think we will have most of the relevant knowledge at UDS, or at least a good chance of having.
<cjwatson> I would like to at least talk about it at UDS. Whether it's a hallway-track meeting or something else I don't really care.
<cjwatson> we could put it in the installer forum if you like
<mdz> how about adding a boot loader forum which iwj can host
<cjwatson> there's nothing much concrete scheduled for that yet
<Mithrandir> iwj: it's also the fact that it used to be a problem only with SCSI + IDE, while now it's a problem with PATA + SATA which is a lot more common.
<iwj> The key thing is kernel participation.  The bootloader stuff is fiddly but less complex and I think I can probably cover it.
<iwj> Mithrandir: Right.  And it used to be that if it did go wrong you could write some config to fix it, whereas now it changes every other boot.
<Mithrandir> iwj: yay hardware/BIOS races.
<mdz> iwj: if you want some time with the kernel team to talk through this, then I see no problem with it
<mdz> the entire kernel team will be there, and they will certainly have a spare hour
<cjwatson> I will schedule a forum session involving iwj + kernel team
<mdz> ok
<iwj> Unfortunately I don't have enough SATA disks here to do proper tests but Fabio will perhaps have some experience of BIOS disk order stability (or otherwise) with many-disk SATA setups.
<iwj> cjwatson: Thanks.
<mdz> iwj: has Keybuk talked to you about boot/login with no free disk space?
<iwj> mdz: Yes.
<iwj> I don't think it needs discussion.
<cjwatson> in general though we plan for it to be possible to autoschedule stuff and have that interact nicely with the core schedule
<mdz> iwj: that has a big chunk of background work which doesn't seem to have been done yet
<cjwatson> Keybuk says he has the code for that
<fabbione> iwj: i have no SATA.. only SAS (only sparc) and scsi
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: feel free to add me to that bof too.
<mdz> iwj: I don't think you know that until you've looked at it in more detail
<iwj> It just needs test, discover bug, fix bug or do workaround, rinse, repeat.
<iwj> fabbione: Hmm.
<fabbione> iwj: well plus IDE or PATA or whatever they are called now
<iwj> OK, I'll put out a mail on ubuntu-devel maybe asking for people to report their experiences.
<mdz> iwj: how about doing a comprehensive test, which is what I asked for?
<mdz> this is not a difficult problem to simulate
<mdz> and then if it turns out that there are upstream problems to be resolved, you'll know what questions to ask the GNOME folks at the summit
<mdz> for example
<Mithrandir> mdz: not entirely true, since you don't know what order the BIOS puts the drives in.  Some BIOSes put the boot drive as 0x80, some just don't.  But, it's better to discuss the problem in person.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: err, I think we're talking about the disk space thing now
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: oh, point.
<mdz> Mithrandir: I have no idea what you're responding to
<Mithrandir> mea culpa
<iwj> mdz: Err, yes, but I don't think a test will tell us very much.
<mdz> iwj: "we'll figure it out as we go" is not a suitable project plan
<mdz> pitti,fabbione: is one of you looking into encrypted filesystems?
<fabbione> mdz: i did some basic research already at MV
<iwj> Can we have encrypted swap at least ?
<pitti> mdz: I made up my mind about cryptsetup, did some experiments, and thought about various possibilities to implement it
<pitti> I think I have a pretty good idea about the subject now and the pro/cons of different approaches
<mdz> pitti: ok, you should have enough background for an agenda
<cjwatson> iwj: it's (a) easy to test on a basic level and start incrementally fixing, (b) possible to write a shim that causes write() and similar to return ENOSPC
<pitti> iwj: that's the easiest thing
<pitti> mdz: right, in fact I already have an agenda here; I guess I just forgot to add it to the bzr
<pitti> will do
<iwj> cjwatson: Right.
<iwj> I've been playing with subterfugue for other reasons and that might well be a starting point for such a shim ...
<mdz> pitti: ok, gerat
<mdz> great
<mdz> Riddell: do you know what needs to be discussed at the Kubuntu/KDE-related sessions?
<Riddell> mdz: some things yes, but I don't have a two hour agenda for the "Kubuntu gutsy plan" slot
<Riddell> it may well we have plenty to talk about for two hours, I just don't know
<Riddell> mdz: I did e-mail agenda items to keybuk when he asked a while ago, but they don't seem to be added to any of the items
<cjwatson> mdz: can I take you off apport-gnome-cooperation if necessary to resolve scheduling contention?
<mdz> Riddell: the agendas don't need to fill the entire time slot, just provide starting points for the discussion
<cjwatson> I still need to go through the stuff Scott forwarded from various people :-/
<mdz> Riddell: ok, if you've sent them to Scott then he'll commit them
<mdz> ...or punt them to colin
<Riddell> mdz: is "Kubuntu gutsy plan" expected to end with a spec?
<mdz> Riddell: I cannot say; I did not define it.  didn't the Kubuntu topics come from you?
<mdz> it's marked as a workshop, which would mean yes, it should result in a spec
<Riddell> mdz: yes, but that one was "kde 4 plan" and has now been generalised into "kubuntu gusty plan"
<mdz> and from the title, it sounds like it should have some output, namely a plan
<mdz> Riddell: I'm not picky about the name
<mdz> if you want it to be specifically kde 4, that's fine with me
<mdz> or you can split it into a workshop on kde 4, and a  forum to brainstorm other interesting things to do in Kubuntu
<cjwatson> apport-gnome-cooperation moved to Tuesday
<pitti> splendid
<cjwatson> last thing Tuesday in the otherwise free slot, but you can't have everything
* pitti adds agenda for encrypted file systems
<mdz> cjwatson: I've started assembling slides for the introduction, and I don't expect to have 90 minutes of talking to do
<mdz> so we can potentially free up some space on sunday
<cjwatson> we're not under *quite* that much pressure yet, but it may come
<cjwatson> we could make how-was-feisty-for-you longer
<cjwatson> it strikes me that there will probably be plenty of material in there
<mdz> that could become a big brainstorming session
<mdz> or we could do a demo
<cjwatson> we already have lots of demo slots
<cjwatson> later in the week, which I think is better really
<mdz> I want to re-emphasize that we need more people devoted to the mobile effort
<mdz> this is perhaps the single most important part of the summit, to get this sorted
<fabbione> mdz: i added my self to the mobile schedule are you requested
<mdz> fabbione: yes, thank you
<mdz> there will be about 5-8 folks coming just to work on that
<mdz> I'll be sending out an announcement about it soon
<mdz> are there any questions about UDS?
<mdz> this will be the first one for some of you
<Riddell> will there be phone conferencing like at MTV?
<mdz> if it's your first summit, it would behoove you to get a briefing on how it works
<pitti> mdz: how do we handle subscription to dynamically scheduled specs?
<mdz> Riddell: I have been told that there will be something similar, yes
<mdz> pitti: just subscribe in launchpad as usual
<pitti> mdz: greedy subscription again, or just ad-hoc on the evening for the next day?
<mdz> pitti: I don't understand the question
<pkl_> mdz: where can I get any briefings. as it's my first summit?  I was planning on picking everthing up when I got ther.
<pitti> mdz: nevermind, if it didn't change, then my question is already answered
<pitti> I overheard something about not subscribing to half a thousand specs this time to ease scheduling or so
<cjwatson> mdz: I'm shortening the intro bits on Sunday and (for now) spreading out how-was-feisty over the break, but it might be best to turn that into two different things
<fabbione> pkl_: get there saturday. offer beer to other developers .. developers will happily talk about the process. WIN
<mdz> pkl_: talk to your line manager if you don't have a mentor to talk to already
<cjwatson> pkl_: I can give you a call shortly after the meeting and we can go over it
<pkl_> I was going to question BenC, as he's not about much at the moment, Saturday evening was my plan.
<mvo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla <- that is the list for dynamically specs, right? or is there more to look at
<iwj> pitti's question AIUI is should we do what we were encouraged to do last time, which is to subscribe to lots of specs we're interested in, or should we leave ourselves out of the scheduler some more and simply turn up to things on the day ?
<pitti> iwj: *nod*
<pkl_> cjwatson: can we move the call to tomorrow?  I need to vote (in the Welsh assembly election and catch a train to Birmingham)?
<mdz> mvo: yes
<cjwatson> pkl_: I will be on a train tomorrow
<pitti> erk, there's 'firewall' again; that's a SoC project
<iwj> Why is winmodem-support on the schedule
<iwj> ?
<cjwatson> pkl_: but I'll happily go over it in person with you on Sunday evening
<mdz> iwj,pitti: since subscription doesn't affect scheduling, you're free to do as you like
<pkl_> cjwatson: OK, thanks.
<mdz> subscription means that you'll be notified of state changes on the spec, and you'll have a personal agenda generated by the scheduler
<iwj> Right.  I might do that by hand and eye instead.
<cjwatson> pkl_: sorry, I mean Sat evening
<mdz> iwj: because it's still a big concern for our users?
<iwj> What I mean is is it not working ?
<pkl_> cjwatson: OK, I assumed you meant Saturday :)
<mdz> iwj: no, it is not
<mdz> iwj: and the scope attempted for feisty apparently wasn't complete, either
<iwj> OK, well, fine, let's discuss it at UDS then.
<mdz> iwj: Keybuk has the details and can review this with you
<iwj> Keybuk> Oh, good.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<mdz> ok, anything further on UDS?
<mdz> any non-UDS items to raise?
<pitti> cjwatson: are you fine to sub to encrypted-file-systems for your installer expertise?
<cjwatson> pitti: yes, I think last I looked it conflicted with something but that is not now the case
<fabbione> pitti: i can be there for that. i have experience in partman*
<iwj> pitti: Can you sub me to that ?  I'm trying to get a bit more into the installer and have some fs encryption experience.
<fabbione> pitti: assuming cjwatson will trust me enough :)
<iwj> Or I'll do it myself ...
<pitti> fabbione: that would be nice as well; but we should also integrate it into ubiquity somehow
<pitti> iwj: as you wish, I can do it quickly if you want
<fabbione> pitti: i am pretty sure ubiquity will suck it almost automatically
<iwj> Please.
<cjwatson> fabbione: you are mistaken] 
<cjwatson> depending perhaps on how much flexibility there is in "almost"
<cjwatson> evand will need to be there for that; I've subscribed him
<fabbione> cjwatson: well pretty much a lot..
<pitti> iwj: done
<fabbione> cjwatson: of flexibility
<iwj> pitti: Ta.
<cjwatson> fabbione: you're already subscribed to encrypted-filesystems anyway
<cjwatson> at this point, people should feel free to commit agenda items themselvees
<Riddell> do I need to register my specs in launchpad?
<mdz> indeed
<cjwatson> as your managers may well be travelling
<cjwatson> I was due to do a mass spec registration
<Riddell> cool
<cjwatson> or in some cases renaming in the core scheduler
<cjwatson> not quite sure when I'm going to fit that in, but I'll try ...
<cjwatson> sftp://chinstrap/home/warthogs/archives/scott/schedulemaker/ for the recorrd
<mdz> ok, looks like a wrap for the meeting
<mdz> I'm looking forward to seeing everyone this weekend
<mdz> travel safely and get some good sleep
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<fabbione> thanks
<fabbione> cya there
<pkl_> see you all there.
<bdmurray> see you soon
<asac> thanks ... cu all on sat/sun!
<mvo> thanks
<pitti> see you all, safe travels!
<seb128> thanks
<dholbach> thanks
* pitti can't bring his Poker set this time
<iwj> pitti: You have an exploding poker set which contains flammable liquids like water ?
<pitti> iwj: it's too big for me to carry in the hand luggage, and due to the braindead connection I want to avoid checking in luggage
<iwj> Ah, poor connections.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 May 13:00 UTC: Community Council
<nifan> b'noite
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-05-04
<sid> @schedule New_York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 08 May 16:00: Technical Board | 09 May 16:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 11:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 16 May 09:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-05-05
<arualavi> @schedule Andorra
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Andorra: 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 16 May 15:00: Community Council
<lau> help/leave
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-05-06
<klausos> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-04-29
<emma> .
<Hobbsee> ..
<Hobbsee> the war of the dots, apparently.
<emma> ..
<mib_bo4zimnn> hi  everyone
<emma> hello mib_bo4zimnn i am not sure if it is considered okay to chat informally in here.
<Hobbsee> emma: it's not.
<Hobbsee> emma: that's why no one else does.
<RoAkSoAx> m
<zul> @schedule montreal
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-04-30
<zul> @schedule now
<calc> doko: did you mean there is a current thread on dev@go-oo about modularization?
<ogra> *yawn*
<zul> evening
<ArneGoetje> hi
<TheMuso> Greetings.
<calc> here
<asac> hi all
<bryce> heya
<kirkland> howdy
<cjwatson> guten Morgen
<dholbach> hiya :)
<bdmurray> hello
<evand> hi
<james_w> hi all
<pitti> Good morning
<cjwatson> Hi all; welcome to those of you visiting for 8.04.1 discussions
<pitti> hardy is our rock!
<cjwatson> As I mentioned by mail, the main thing I want to go through in this platform meeting is 8.04.1, though I have other odds and ends for afterwards
<ogra> cjwatson, i just sent you another agenda item
<doko> good morning
<cjwatson> Most of you will already know that we're assigning more resources than usual to the point release this time round, and this will consist of a virtual team of about ten people under the direction of slangasek
<cjwatson> Steve was on well-deserved holiday yesterday after the 8.04 release, so I don't know if he's had a chance to catch up and figure out what's going on with stable yet :-)
<pitti> ah, that was in fact one of my main pressing questions: slangasek is now officially part of the SRU team, so I can bother him to review my own SRU uploads?
<cjwatson> From platform, so far, evand and about half of asac will be on the 8.04.1 team; I'm still sniffing around for one more
<slangasek> I've managed to process my mail with difficulty today - looks like there are one or two bugs to keep us busy for the point release
<StevenK> Heh, "half of asac"
<pitti> from desktop, it's seb128 and me (so far)
<ogra> no half people there ?
<slangasek> pitti: my understanding is that I'm to be officially part of the SRU team, but I'm not a member of the launchpad team yet
<zul> from the server team its me and half of kirkland
<pitti> slangasek: I don't think the team comes with any extra power, it's just the bug mail I think
 * cjwatson looks at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04.1 - "144 bugs targeted"
<seb128> hi
<pitti> slangasek: but someone should add you indeed
<cjwatson> slangasek: *clicketyclick* fixed
 * calc will be putting out a new OOo, but probably not working on other stuff unless asked
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks :)
<cjwatson> Firefox 3's non-final state is one of the things I've seen in pretty much every 8.04 review so far, hence asac
<cjwatson> (and we knew it was going to be that way, of course)
 * slangasek nods
<ogra> yeah, there are also massive threads about it on ubuntu-users
<ogra> seems some people have problems running 2 and 3 in parallel
<cjwatson> The target for package uploads being complete for 8.04.1 is about the first week of June, with the release itself then being early July, so plenty of time for testing and certification
<asac> ogra: nobody claimed that thats really supported ;)
<cjwatson> Are there any major issues people would like to raise that they think ought to be hoovered up for 8.04.1?
<ogra> asac, right and -users is a madhouse anyway
<pitti> cjwatson: do you know whether we'll get any list of 'hardware that should work with .1' again?
<ogra> cjwatson, sound support
<lool> It's not a major issue, but I need to mention the UME situation
<slangasek> I think all the major issues I would raise are conveniently already milestoned ;)
<pitti> pulseaudio's stuttering is driving me crazy, but it might just be me
<slangasek> sound support is a big one that needs some attention
<cjwatson> lool: that is on my list, I'll get to it in a moment
<seb128> cjwatson: gvfs smb issues
<lool> perfect, thanks
<ogra> pitti, since crimsun dropped the ball we're pretty much floating wrt sound
<cjwatson> pitti: I'm not sure, I'll check
<zul> cjwatson: onn the server side we have a list of things we would like to see fixed or tweaked
<slangasek> the new kernel scheduler works for most cases, but in the cases where it doesn't it really doesn't - I think the kernel team already has that in 'fix committed' now
<ogra> nobody is *really deep* into it atm
<TheMuso> Crimsun and I are looking at putting pulseaudio through dmix at this point, and testing is giving different results for different people from what I can gather.
<lool> slangasek: Is that the commit in 2.6.25 by Ingo?
<cjwatson> slangasek: cgroups?
<ogra> TheMuso, do you know what redhat are doing wrt the pulse setup ?
<slangasek> zul: can you please let me know if there are any of those bugs which aren't a subset of the 8.04.1 milestoned set?
<slangasek> cjwatson: yes
<slangasek> lool: no
<cjwatson> seb128: that's bug 207072?
<zul> slangasek: sure I can cross reference it
<TheMuso> ogra: Using direct hardware access afaik. I plan on installing FC9 to have a closer look.
<ogra> cool
<pitti> one highly annoying thing is that gnome-screensaver doesn't accept your password after resuming; not sure if that's already milestoned
<slangasek> I need to fix my own brown paper bag regarding pam logging :P
<slangasek> pitti: hrm?  I haven't seen this at all
<lool> Me neither
<TheMuso> ogra: Not even sure what Fedora users do about flash and pulse, but I guess we won't really know till FC9 final is out.
<ogra> pitti, i heard about keyboard issues after resume, that might be related
<seb128> cjwatson: bug #209520 bug #223372 bug #207072
<bryce> I've been looking at doing some quirk and pci id updates for various X drivers, and I think we might have a few more fixes for xrandr gui from redhat and suse that could be worth pulling in
<pitti> slangasek: hm, happens on both my boxes (freshly installed final), so I didn't think it was a local glitch
<seb128> right, fixing the xrandr capplet would be nice too, because I'm not sure it works for lot of people right now
<pitti> anyway, it's on my list to track this down
<ogra> TheMuso, they go for libflashsupport
<slangasek> pitti: ok, please keep me informed; I would have expected a bug like that to have come to my attention by now if it were widespread, but even if it's not that sounds like a fairly important issue to try to pin down
<TheMuso> ogra: Yeah so I guess ti comes down to how pulse/flashsupport behave for Fedora users.
<pitti> slangasek: ok, I'll first get it filed, I think :)
<ogra> TheMuso, but use nspluginwrapper all over the place, so it doesnt crash their browser
<ogra> (people will just reload the page)
<bryce> seb128: cloned (e.g. projector) should be fine for most people; dual-head layouts still needs work.  Not sure we're going to get that 100% though, but could be polished better.
<seb128> bryce: ok, I might just have no luck with my setup then
<slangasek> bryce: one of the reviews of hardy mentioned that the xrandr gui doesn't resize if you use it to scale the screen down to a size smaller than the window, making it difficult to make further changes; do you know if there's a bug about this?
<cjwatson> I've asked TheMuso to be the third platform guy for .1, so hopefully he can spend some time smoothing out sound
<calc> yea i saw that for low resolution displays
<ogra> bryce, what about single head layouts that detect a tv or external VGA ? seems the external is always on (whch forces a floating gdm of 1024x768 on a 1280x800 screen here for me)
<seb128> slangasek: there is a bug yes, I've been commenting on yet yesterday, no obvious way to solve the "dialog don't fit on 800x600 issues"
<slangasek> seb128: well, there's a very large graphic that ought to be scalable downwards, in principle :)
<bryce> slangasek: right, we actually did get it to fit in that resolution, but a button got added in at the last moment that bumped us up just enough.  That was a pretty non-standard resolution (740x400 iirc) so I don't know if it's worth SRUing, but I talked about it with james.
<cjwatson> so I make the .1 team as follows: slangasek, asac, evand, TheMuso, pitti, seb128, bdmurray, ogasawara__, pedro, kirkland, zul
<james_w> I thought it was ok in 800x600, it was just x400 that didn't work.
<ogra> bryce, i ave seen that on different machines now, switching the external output off via xrandr fixes it though
<ArneGoetje> can we put #215755 on the .1 list, please?
<bryce> I think we should re-test on 640x480 though.  I *think* it should still fit ok, but if not maybe we should just shift where the button is located
<TheMuso> When is Fedora 9 due?
<seb128> james_w: might be, I use 800x600 as value we get bugs about app not fiting correctly on that usually
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: I've milestoned it speculatively, though it's outside the usual SRU criteria; I can see why it would be needed though
<ogra> TheMuso, may 15th i think
<asac> TheMuso: iirc 13th may
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: thanks
<asac> ok ;)
<ogra> or what asac says :)
<calc> 14 days apparently
<calc> whenever that is :)
<TheMuso> Ok thanks.
<bryce> ogra: the TV out interference bugs are usually easily quirkable; pass me bug ids and they should be easy to do that way
<calc> yea may 13
<cjwatson> lool mentioned mobile as an issue, and this was also on my list
<slangasek> bryce: ah, right, I can't see much reason to worry about resolutions below 640x480; but then, the GUI should therefore probably not /expose/ resolutions lower than that if it's going to break the GUI itself :)
<cjwatson> the mobile team is going to be releasing their hardy-based product somewhat later than hardy itself; looking at late May at the moment, I understand
<lool> Yes
<lool> We need to provide security support on it, and it's currently based on hardy + ume ppa
<ogra> bryce, will do ... i added "/usr/bin/xrandr --output TV --off" to a gdm Init file for now, works around it as well :)
<seb128> slangasek: note that you have to confirm the choice, so people shooting themself in the foot are really asking for it there
<cjwatson> and they have raised it as an issue that their process is very complicated at the moment, involving PPAs and other weirdness all over the show
<cjwatson> I'd like the .1 team to consider whether parts of this can be incorporated in the updates for .1
<lool> To be in the sweet spot of maintainability, we would be happy with having everything in hardy, but some of our changes remain ppa only at the moment
<cjwatson> perhaps at least those packages currently in the ume ppa that are also important in the regular archive
<calc> apparently opensuse will have pulseaudio as well but isn't slated for release until mid june
<cjwatson> I think there may be cases where a merge into the main archive just isn't appropriate yet
<TheMuso> calc: Ok another one I need to check out, thanks.,
<lool> That's true, it's certainly hard to reconcile the proposed changes with SRU requirements
<lool> The changes might be lpia specific
<calc> TheMuso: http://en.opensuse.org/Roadmap
<lool> Or might be in purely mobile packages
<TheMuso> calc: ok thanks again.
<slangasek> right, I was about to say, if UME is still in the development run-up to a release, there are likely to be changes that don't really fit the SRU policy
<lool> I think these are not disruptive to the normal behavior of hardy, but they do not fit in the allowed updates scenarii
<cjwatson> at the very least, it'd make sense to consider cases where packages are being updated anyway
<cjwatson> if changes are lpia-specific, the major risk is from changing the package *at all*, not so much from the diff itself
<slangasek> and navigating the SRU requirements might be more of a hassle than using the PPA
<cjwatson> IYSWIM
 * slangasek nods
<lool> I was hoping that some easy changes would be mergeable as trivial mobile bug fixes, but it's going to be administrativa for sure
<lool> One issue with the SRU process is that it needs the reviewer to be able to test the package
<cjwatson> lool: perhaps somebody could correlate the list of changes you have against the 8.04.1 milestone, and look for things that could slot in
<lool> But with UME, we don't have a completely virtual solution (yet) and the Xephyr solution is a pain to setup
<cjwatson> is there wiki documentation on the setup?
<cjwatson> at least then it could be done if need be ...
<pitti> lool: but there should be at least one other person with that hw in the team?
<asac> me
<StevenK> Bryce, too
<lool> cjwatson: Ok; we didn't use the milestone too much yet; what needs to be done is to look one by one at the packages we carry in the ppa and see whether the changes can be merged into hardy
<pitti> lool: traditionally, hw specific bugs are verified by the bug reporter/subscribers, and we collect a few of them
<slangasek> lool: the SRU process doesn't require the reviewer to be on the sru team or an archive admin, though?  so presumably you'd have people within your own team who could do the validation
<lool> pitti: Yes
<cjwatson> lool: right, I mean packages that are already going to be updated for .1 for other (non-mobile) reasons
<lool> Sure, we could do it within UME; I thought the sru team or archive admins had to be able to check, but UME testing is fine
<pitti> TBH, that makes even more sense than ~sru-verification, since they just test a particular TEST CASE:, and not the entire package in production conditions)
<lool> cjwatson: Yup, I understood
<cjwatson> ok, further .1 meetings
<lool> cjwatson: So should we check -proposed regularly to see whether a package is different in -updates and hardy?
<cjwatson> it seems like it'll be valuable for the .1 team to occasionally sync up, but you're in the usual variety of timezones
<cjwatson> one suggestion was to have shift meetings, so that at least there's some coordination even if it isn't whole-team
<cjwatson> slangasek: but I'll leave you to carry this forward
<cjwatson> lool: I think you guys may be too busy to poll; perhaps you can arrange some kind of notification system
<lool> Are -proposed uploads sent to some -changes list?
 * ogra thinks it should be responsibility of the uploader to take care 
<ogra> (for notification that is)
<lool> I see them in hardy-changes I think
<slangasek> cjwatson: hmm, do we have any scheduling tools available internally to make this easier? :)
<lool> I guess I'll tell people to subscribe with a filter to that list so that they can see likely SRU candidates
<slangasek> ogra: the uploader won't necessarily know that the UME team cares about the package in question
<ogra> lool, but they might have to sit in -proposed for weeks
<cjwatson> lool: hardy-changes, yes
<ogra> sladen, oh, right
<pitti> lool: yes, they go to -changes normally
<ogra> err s/sladen/slangasek, sorry
<cjwatson> slangasek: not a lot, unfortunately; when I've done it I drew out a big list of timezones and people so that I could do it by eye
<lool> Ok
<StevenK> slangasek: I'd suggest you ask davidm too, since we have this issue with the mobile team
<slangasek> StevenK: thanks, I'll ask him
<lool> Where will the 8.04.1 sync meetings be announced?
<slangasek> I'll make sure they get on the fridge
<lool> Thanks
<lool> Just in case, it might be best to include me in the list of 8.04.1 people if that's the base for an email group or something
<cjwatson> so on second thoughts, the other agenda item I had was just for one person, so I won't bore the whole team with it
<cjwatson> any other business?
<slangasek> lool: I'm happy to do that to keep you in the loop
<lool> Thanks
<bryce> thanks
<lool> cjwatson: thanks for the meeting!  have a nice day
<kirkland> cool, g'night!
<asac> thanks
<evand> thanks
<pitti> thanks everyone
<TheMuso> Thanks folks.
<ogra> thanks
<seb128> thanks guys
<StevenK> thanks guys
<james_w> thanks all
<slangasek> thanks (i.e., "no other business" :)
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<cjwatson> ok then, adjourned; thanks all, good luck with .1!
<emgent> @schedule rome
<emgent> argh ubot..
<stgraber> hey heno
 * ogasawara__ waves
<heno> hey all
<pedro_> hello!
<bdmurray> hi
<davmor2> hello
<heno> #startmeeting
<heno> meh, no bot
<heno> ok, agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> TOPIC - Setting up virtual images of standard upstream software for upstream bug testing
<heno> I played a bit with this yesterday in vbox
<heno> basically installed Debian testing
<heno> anyone know how much debian changs Gnome and OOo?
<heno> they obviously rebrand firefox
<stgraber> I don't think they patch gnome a lot, you probably can take a quick look at their .diff.gz though
<heno> the idea here is to make it easy to teat whether a bug exists upstream
<pedro_> there's no a good way to determine that i think
<pedro_> that's why i prefer to use jhbuild of trunk instead
<heno> So: is offering Debian unstable images a good enough way to do this or should it be pure upstream?
<heno> latest head builds
<Crazyguy> if possible, latest gnome build definitely
<bdmurray> I think pure upstream for OOo, firefox, and Gnome.  Having a debian image would be good for a lot of bugs though.
<pedro_> yep it would be good for all the other software we have
<davmor2> I think if you asking general public to test in vm then debian unstable is probably a good call
<heno> firefox and OOo are fairly easy to install from upstream binaries I guess, what about Gnome?
<pedro_> ouch
<heno> heh
<pedro_> is a bit complicated but not a lot
<pedro_> and it will use a lot of space
<RoAkSoAx> @schedule
<heno> ok, so perhaps we can start with Debian unstable and see if we run into issues of it not being pure upstream enough
<pedro_> ~750 only of source code
<pedro_> ok
<heno> It would be great if someone could take this on, but we'll get to that on agenda item 3
<heno> TOPIC - Creating a test-control team to lead various test efforts with similar privileges as bug-control
<pedro_> btw does debian have something like patches.ubuntu.com?
<heno> This would include people who can admin the test tracker, who generally edit test cases, etc.
<heno> perhaps also set priority of bugs
<heno> it would be a restricted team like bug-control
<heno> pedro_: don't know
<heno> there is the ubuntu->debian project, utnubu or something
<pedro_> ok will try to see what can i find out there, thanks
<heno> thoughts on test-control? do we need this? will it be useful?
<ogasawara> heno: is there a list of initial members for the test-control team that don't already have the above mentioned privileges?
<heno> davmor2: are you in bug-control?
<davmor2> No bug-squad
<heno> there are the Xubuntu and Studio test people also
<bdmurray> the test cases are just in the wiki though at the moment right?
<heno> it's also a way to encourage people to do ore structured testing
<cgregan> I think a defined group to manage these type of actions is a good idea. Especially as we grow. That being said, it would have to be managed so it did not become a bottleneck
<stgraber> Won't that require to have that test-control team as a member of bug-control ?
<heno> and learn more advanced techniques
<heno> like setting up re-flashable disk images
<heno> bdmurray: right, I'm not suggesting we limit access to editing them, just that it would be a typical task for team members
<james_w> pedro_: no, they don't have patches.debian.org, but if they use a patch system patches.ubuntu.com can provide the individual patches in http://patches.ubuntu.com/by-release/extracted/debian/ which is probably quite useful for gnome
<bdmurray> stgraber: for setting bug priority yes and I think the bug-control team requires some special knowledge that testers might not need
<heno> stgraber: why, to set importance?
<stgraber> heno: yep
<pedro_> james_w: great, thanks!
<bdmurray> I think setting bug importance could wait a while
<heno> we can leave the right to set importance out, but it should be a restricted team
<zul> @schedule montreal
<stgraber> well, it has to be restricted, otherwise you are just describing our existing : "Ubuntu Testing Team" :)
<stgraber> (that's currently AFAIK not used at all)
<heno> the test tracker could get the info from LP in the future
<heno> stgraber: right :)
<heno> Sounds like we should define the purpose and scope a bit better before proceeding
<stgraber> indeed
<heno> I'll take it to the mailing list
<heno> TOPIC - Additional QA team roles
<davmor2> I think it is important for people to have a sense of motivation.  You see now across the whole spectrum of teams.  You get the base level team that anyone can join and then the elite who help the other and have more privileges
<heno> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles for my proposal
<stgraber> I'm all for a restricted team showing that its members have been actively helping testing Ubuntu
<stgraber> the "Ubuntu Testing Team" was useless mainly because it was opened to everyone and didn't give any additional privilege.
<stgraber> davmor2: +1
<heno> ok, so we are agreed on the principle, just need to settle the details :)
<davmor2> :)
<davmor2> sounds good :)
<heno> davmor2's point is really also the motivation for the QA roles
<heno> defining clear areas of responsibility that we ask people step up to
<pedro_> mmm we need a KDE/Kubuntu guy
 * pedro_ will ask yuriy about that
<davmor2> heno: I think in the roles you missed asac for FF
<stgraber> that Roles page looks really good, will be useful to redirect people asking who to contact regarding a specific area of QA
<davmor2> Riddell
<davmor2> he tends to sit in on the testing channel anyway
<bdmurray> When I heard role I was thinking bug forwarder, bug triager, etc...
<heno> I should link to the bug roles page - there is some overlap
<stgraber> Installer bug contact would also be a good thing
<stgraber> for debian-installer/ubiquity issues
<heno> bdmurray: should we use a different term?
<bdmurray> Nothing great comes to mind other than "lead"?
<asac> i would love to give away the "mozilla bug role" to someone else who is more dedicated to bug work.
<bdmurray> Well, that's not great
<heno> I'm sure asac would love someone *else* to step up as FF QA lead :)
<asac>  \o/
<heno> ...
<asac> i can provide the input and procedures, but doing the QA of my own stuff doesn't sound right
<davmor2> stgraber: that would be evand
<heno> davmor2: but as with asac he is the lead dev
<heno> the QA lead should be a different person
<heno> shall we decide on these one at a time and move them up to open positions/roles?
<davmor2> Well myself evand and ï»¿ xivulon (ï»¿Agostino Russo) are all on pretty good terms, so I can probably take that on too.
<heno> davmor2: ok, just note that we are trying to involve new people with this, so don't take them all :)
<heno> So, in order:
<heno> Kernel bug first-response
<heno> ogasawara: please add whatever further role description is needed
<ogasawara> sounds good to me :)  I'll beef up the description more
<heno> the more detail about what it involves the better
 * ogasawara nods
<heno> * Test VM maintainer
<heno> based on debian I think we decided
<heno> I can flesh that one out
<stgraber> what about some kind of Forum <-> QA team contact ?
<heno> what would they do?
<heno> sounds useful, but specifically
<stgraber> make sure people reporting bugs or test results on the forums are either redirected to the proper ressource (Launchpad) or at least forward the bug/result to the right developper or open a report himself
<heno> that sounds concrete enough
<heno> and could request testing in the forum when needed
<stgraber> yes, that too
<heno> stgraber: will you flesh out the description for that?
<heno> * Derivatives test coordinator (Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, etc.)
<stgraber> sure
<heno> perhaps we should hold off on the derivatives one as ISO testing season is now over
<heno> we can't post them all at once anyway
<stgraber> oh, about that, who's the project leader for Mythbuntu ?
<heno> And let's add FF and perhaps OOo
<stgraber> we don't have them on the tracker and I think it'd be a good idea to add them
<bdmurray> asac: are getting Firefox 3.0 bugs upstream important now? and how time sensitive is it?
<bdmurray> stgraber: superm1
<stgraber> bdmurray: thanks, I'll ping him later
<heno> the installer can perhaps wait as it's out of season now :)
<heno> let's aim to have 2-3 of these posted before next week's meeting
<heno> any other topics today?
<stgraber> We can probably start with : test-vm, kernel bug and forum
<stgraber> those aren't linked to ISO testing
<stgraber> (not directly)
<heno> ok
<heno> 3
<heno> 2
<heno> 1
<heno> #endmeeting
<davmor2> still no bot :)
<heno> Yeah, I'm still compelled to write that though :)
<davmor2> :)
<stgraber> yeah, 15min break before the next meeting :)
<asac> bdmurray: sorry. have to run. we can talk about that tomorrow (well tomorrow is publich holiday here, so maybe friday)
<bdmurray> asac: okay, you know where to find me.
 * ogra jumps at the stage 
<ogra> anyone here ?
<ogra> hmm
<stgraber> yep
<ogra> heh
<ogra> so its you and me :)
<stgraber> Laserjock was in #ubuntu-devel 3 minutes ago
<ogra> lets wait another 5 min or so
<ogra> yeah, saw him, but he said he has another meeting as well
<stgraber> ah, right
<ogra> so i''ll paste my list of proposed specs i would like to work on in intrepid, note that none of them are accepted or even put up on blueprints yet
<ogra> colin has to nod off what i'm allowed to work on and we didnt have a meeting about it yet, so take that list with a grin of salt
<LaserJock> it would be nice to have a set of community  goals as well, IMO
 * ogra repeats for the recently joined
 * nealmcb didn't know salt could grin, but likes the idea :-)
<ogra> <ogra> so i''ll paste my list of proposed specs i would like to work on in intrepid, note that none of them are accepted or even put up on blueprints yet
<ogra> <ogra> colin has to nod off what i'm allowed to work on and we didnt have a meeting about it yet, so take that list with a grin of salt
 * ogra resisted the urge to fix the typo :)
<ogra> * USB Key images by default (dd'able casper images for usb keys)
<ogra> * WLAN Mesh networking support out of the box
<ogra> * Easy touchscreen calibration
<ogra> * Initramfs profiling by default
<ogra> * Lightweight kernel flavor (core kernel flavour for minimal ram usage)
<ogra> * edubuntu menu completion ui
<ogra> * local content filter (finish willowng parental control, ufw integration)
<ogra> * ltsp sound cleanup (adapt full pulseaudio support even for capturing)
<ogra> * ltsp localapps (finish the proof of concept setup from gutsy)
<ogra> for edubuntu mst intresting is the menu stuff and willowng finishing i guess
<ogra> *most
<stgraber> looks like a CMPC todolist if you remove the 2 ltsp items :)
<ogra> willow and edubuntu-menus eare no cmpc items
<ogra> and the others rather fall into general subnotebook and ressource reduction realm :)
<ogra> i surely dont want to have another image like i have to maintain now for cmpc
<ogra> they will stick on me eternally, i'd like to avoid that
<ogra> LaserJock, so for the edubuntu-menu completion i thought about looking for a sceduling app as well to integrate with that
<ogra> *scheduling
<stgraber> 22:04 < LaserJock> yeah, I'm running to my advisor meeting
<stgraber> 22:04 < LaserJock> I'll be back hopefully soon
<stgraber> ogra: ^
<ogra> well, willowng has lots of potential but misses the final bits
<ogra> stgraber, yup, saw that
<stgraber> ok
<ogra> i'D also like to look into FF addons
<ogra> for content stuff
<stgraber> ok, from my side. My current planned changes for Intrepid are :
<ogra> stgraber, oh, and the touchscreen spec is totally selfish ... i want my touchscreen to work on the new lappie ;)
<stgraber>  * Integration of avahi with iTalc (already done in PPA)
<ogra> not cmpc or edu related :)
<stgraber>  * UI for key export/import
<stgraber>  * Easy way to add it to the LTSP chroot (some users asked for that)
<stgraber> and stability fixes
<ogra> what exactly ?
<stgraber> some users want ica to be running on the thin clients instead of the server
<ogra> hmm
<stgraber> so it uses less bandwidth and CPU power
<ogra> that will actually use more bandwith
<stgraber> the problem is that we'd need to add QT4, dbus and avahi
<ogra> hum
<stgraber> nope, the X traffic from a full screen demo eats more bandwidth than the VNC stream then uncompressed on the client
<ogra> right, in this direction thats true
<ogra> general vnc will eat more than just running in loopback mode
<stgraber> I don't want that to be a default at all as I know some people can't afford dbus+avahi+qt in their chroot
<ogra> anyway, we dont need to write the spec now :)
<stgraber> so that'd be a well documented option
<ogra> well, i think we will have dbus and hal in the chroot
<ogra> qt only eats some space but wont do any harm to have
<ogra> avahi is the only thing that makes me worried  bit
<stgraber> ok, so we only have avahi left :)
<ogra> *a bit
<stgraber> this one is useful for the classroom generation stuff
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> but we should add a swich to the initscript or so
<ogra> so you can start it by a lts.conf option
<stgraber> indeed
<stgraber> I plan to change my current launcher script to detect if we have ICA running on the client and only start it in gnome if we don't
<stgraber> so having a switch in lts.conf will work just well
<ogra> great
<ogra> lets spec that precisely in prague :)
<ogra> i'm not sure how far i will get with localapps
<stgraber> yep
<ogra> but i want something basic at least which seems to be easy to achieve
<stgraber> I guess we'll need some kind of localapps support, it's been announced for a long time :)
<ogra> scotties xrexecd is in the code already
<ogra> where ?
<ogra> i never announced any localapps support
<stgraber> IRC mainly, every-time someone is asking for it :)
<ogra> well, i usually say that there is a proof of concept but nobody working on it
<stgraber> so currently the only problem to solve is the filesystem and printer stuff (with firefox for instance)
<ogra> shorly after boston when scott was still around that might have been different out of the thrill :)
<ogra> no
<stgraber> so what's missing ?
<ogra> the main issue for proper integration is transparently replacing menu items
<ogra> and gconf
<ogra> fs stuff should be easy
<ogra> i know scottie has ideas and probably even some code i can call him and ask for stuff i guess
<ogra> printer shouldnt be a big issue either
<ogra> i'd like to start jetpipe from udev if possible
<ogra> that wrapper can also set up a local printer the local app sees
<ogra> (for the same device)
<stgraber> and use CUPS to see the server's printers ?
<ogra> anyway, lets not go to much into detail
<ogra> right
<ogra> IPP or so
<stgraber> ok, so the main problem is to hack some gnome code to have a list of .desktop to start as localapps instead of running them on the server
<ogra> well, i'D like to have it automated somehow
<ogra> ldm can detect what X apps are installed in the chroot
<ogra> so an rc.d script can dynamically copy launchers into an overlay dir where it modifies them
<ogra> that goes hand in hand with the edubuntu-menus stuff
<ogra> gconf will be trickier
<ogra> the daemon runs in the session and not where the app sits
<ogra> i'm running out of topics :)
 * ogra waits for LaserJock to re appear 
<ogra> i sadly havent seen any specs from rich yet
<ogra> so i cant tell anytig abut community
<ogra> *anything
<ogra> i know he wants finer grained categories for the addon
<ogra> but thats the only thing i roughtly know about
<ogra> johnny, any lans for sabayon in the next six months ?
<ogra> *plans
<johnny> i am not sure atm, i'm looking to get a *REAL* job
<ogra> or does the gentoo ltsp5 port keep you to busy ? :)
<johnny> i'm about done with that as much as i can
<johnny> the rest should be easy
<johnny> as long as i get somebody else to handle the initramfs situation :)
 * ogra points johnny to http://www.ubuntu.com/employment
<ogra> *again*
<ogra> :)
<johnny> the page has been updated, the first tme you pointed me to it, they were only looking for mobile
<johnny> the positions listed still perhaps might be beyond my ability tho
<ogra> you wont know if you dont try :)
<johnny> other than the stable release engineer
<johnny> i'm updating my resume atm actually
<ogra> well, given that i can discuss the menu stuff with LaserJock directly off meeting and given that i mainly hold monologues ....
<ogra> any other business ?
<stgraber> not from me
<ogra> going once
<ogra> .
<ogra> .
<ogra> .
<ogra> going twice
<ogra> .
<ogra> .
<ogra> .
<ogra> adjourned :)
<ogra> thanks all
 * ogra points LaserJock to #edubuntu for further edubuntu-menu discussions
 * owh yawns.
<soren> o/
<sommer> yo
<jdstrand>  \o
<Keybuk> \|_|o
<soren> Keybuk: Is that a guy who's fallen over?
<jdstrand> heh
<zul> hello
<soren> Keybuk: Two legs up in the air and possibly missing an arm..
<owh> o/
<jdstrand> \|_/o_
<soren> That looks painful
<jdstrand> (there's another arm for you soren)
<owh> Heh, jdstrand, that's the emergency recovery position :)
<jdstrand> that looks like a face-plant
<mathiaz> Allright guys - let's get started
<jdstrand> 'oh no, I fell off my skateboard...'
<soren> Aw... We were having so much fun!
<mathiaz> soren: wait for UDS
<soren> :(
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<zul> no bot
<soren> Oh, Seveas took mootbot with him, too?
<mathiaz> oh well...
<nealmcb> yoga on irc!!
<mathiaz> Today's Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> Not a lot on it
<mathiaz> how is everyone recovering from the release last week ?
<jdstrand> great!
<nealmcb> the mirrors and other servers seem less overwhelmed now....
<nxvl> \o/
<nealmcb> I hope they push bittorrent more next time in the release notes etc
<mathiaz> There has been a steady flow of bug reported
<mathiaz> I've looked through the samba ones
<zul> mathiaz: ucf?
<mathiaz> and it seems some people don't know how-to handle correctly questions asked by ucf
<mathiaz> and this whole configuration file management
<nxvl> the worst problem with server isn't that people download iso's
<mathiaz> the other main issues are cannot access windows shares - mainly due to gvfs
<nxvl> is that they update using update-manager/apt/aptitude
<jdstrand> mathiaz: what is going on with that gvfs/samba/AD issue?
<nxvl> and that brings the mirrors down
<mathiaz> zul: have you seen other recurring bugs in server related software ?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: which issue are you refering to ?
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I haven't been following too closely, but heard of gvfs not being able to access AD and samba
<zul> mathiaz: just some nut ones and apache2 dangling symlink for index.html
<jdstrand> seemed it was pushed to gnome...
<mathiaz> jdstrand: yeah - something like that - that's mainly a problem with gvfs
<mathiaz> I discussed these bugs with seb128 and we aggreed to ask the reporters to test with smbclient
<mathiaz> If it works with smbclient it's a problem with gvfs/nautilus-share and the bug should reassigned to the correct packages
 * jdstrand nods
<mathiaz> If smbclient doesn't work then it's a problem with samba
<zul> mathiaz: that natutilius/smbclient one where you cant go 140 directories deep is interesting
<mathiaz> zul: we'll have to do more debugging on that one.
<mathiaz> So that's all that is on my radar for the post-release bugs
<zul> mathiaz: yep
<owh> zul isn't that just a maximum path length of 255 chars?
<mathiaz> soren: how is it going on the virtualization front ?
<soren> I've still got some fallout I need to get on top of.
<zul> owh: probably
<owh> zul: Which bug number?
<soren> There's one update coming up in the next kernel update.
<jdstrand> soren rocked the 'soft lockup' bug
<soren> I'm looking into a few other things and picking stuff that's suitable for SRU's.
<jdstrand> (that's the one)
<soren> :)
<mathiaz> soren: great !
<mathiaz> zul: how do you track SRU bugs ?
<mathiaz> zul: did you come up with a specific plan ?
<zul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/StableReleaseTracker
<mathiaz> For information, zul will be the contact point for SRU on hardy for 8.04.1
<soren> mathiaz: I'm waiting to be told how to do it.
<zul> It would be nice if people would review that and add to the list
<soren> Last I heard it was a major cause of discussion in certain places.
<mathiaz> soren: right
<mathiaz> That's why zul is looking after this in the server team
<soren> Oh. Er... Right, I thought you were asking me :)
<soren> my bad.
<mathiaz> soren: I guess you should use zul wiki page to keep track of SRUs
<zul> soren: basically there was a kick off meeting last night/this morning about 8.04.1
<soren> zul: Eh? Where? How? When? Who?
<soren> What?
<zul> soren: it was in the platform team meeting check the logs for #ubuntu-meeting
<mathiaz> zul: what was the outcome of the meeting ?
<zul> mathiaz: basically slangasek is leading the effort and there will be more meetings
<soren> Ok, cool. I'll check the logs and see.
<mathiaz> zul: ok. If enconter bugs that may be worth an SRU, should ping you ?
<soren> zul: "this morning" is how many hours ago?
<nxvl> zul: those meeting are community or canonical ones/
<mathiaz> zul: so that you can have a look at it and decide if it's worth ?
<kirkland> soren: 0600 UTC
 * soren shakes his fist at timezones
<zul> mathiaz: correct
<mathiaz> nxvl: it was the platform meeting
<zul> nxvl: community
<soren> Fanks.
<nxvl> mathiaz: as in i can attend to it?
<nxvl> and where are this meetings announced?
<mathiaz> nxvl: of course you can - the meeting was at 6:00 UTC -> translate that to your timezone :D
<nxvl> mathiaz: here?
<mathiaz> nxvl: yes - all the meetings are held in #ubuntu-meeting
<nxvl> and where are they announced? on fridge?
<owh> mathiaz: That meeting isn't showing on http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<mathiaz> the fridge calendar isn't working properly now
<owh> Hmm, was there any particular event that caused that and the bot to be borked for a while?
<soren> The owner left.
<owh> Ah
 * owh guesses that there is more behind that simple statement.
<mathiaz> Allright - that was all for the release fallout
<mathiaz> Let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] bug announcement in #ubuntu-server
<mathiaz> soren added a bot to the #ubuntu-server
<soren> \o/
<mathiaz> and now NEW bugs are announced in the channel
<owh> All bugs?
<soren> Just server bugs.
<mathiaz> owh: only the ones relevant to the server-team
<mathiaz> I questionned whether it was usefull as it seems to generate clutter in the channel
<soren> (defined as the ones that get announced on ubuntu-server-bugs@l.u.c)
<mathiaz> and I rely on email to get notified about new bugs
<mathiaz> soren: and nealmcb thought it's a good idea
<mathiaz> what are others' opinion on that ?
<owh> mathiaz: My comment would be that if a bug comes past while you're online, you can have a squiz at it.
<soren> Yeah. It's hugely helpful for my workflow. I use e-mail when I want to follow up or see history, but an almost real time notification about a new bug is *really* helpful for me.
<jdstrand> I saw two bugs that I was able to tend to and close as a result
<sommer> I'm all for giving it a try, unless the channel becomes too cluttered
<owh> mathiaz: You can set your client to ignore it :)
<mathiaz> sommer: agreed - let's give it a try
<mathiaz> and see how things evolve
<owh> Does your bot come with all the goodies of old soren?
<soren> I'm not sure how to respond to that :)
 * ajmitch wonders what goodies 'old soren' brings anyway
<mathiaz> there are currently two bots in the channel
<owh> soren: There was supposed to be a comma before your name :)
<jdstrand> can we leave soren's 'goodies' out of this?
<soren> Yes, can we? PLease? :)
<nxvl> soren: have you test that your bot doesn't make double announce, then one from the bot and an eco from ubotu?
<sommer> hehee goodies!
<soren> nxvl: I've asked the owner of ubotto to disable the bugSnarfer magic.
<soren> nxvl: That should get rid of the echo.
<nxvl> :(
<mathiaz> soren: great!
 * nxvl can't live without ubotu :(
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] UDS topics
<soren> nxvl: Oh, but my new bot does the same.
<nealmcb> who owns ubottu?
<mathiaz> So UDS is in a couple of weeks from now
<soren> jussi01
<soren> Let's talk in #u-server afterwards.
<mathiaz> so now is the time to get your ideas in blueprints and register them in LP
<mathiaz> so that we can schedule sessions at UDS about these
<nxvl> soren: :D
<nxvl> mathiaz: 2 to be exactly
<nxvl> mathiaz: i have an idea
<nxvl> mathiaz: i talked to you some time ago
<nxvl> but i whing it was to early
<mathiaz> nxvl: right - there will be FOSSCAMP friday/saturday
<mathiaz> and then UDS the following week
<nxvl> yes
<nxvl> i want to include on ubuntu a new tool
<mathiaz> nxvl: register a blueprint and/or start a wiki page on w.u.c
<nxvl> mathiaz: i have them
<nxvl> mathiaz: i just need to work on them a little more and discuss it
<mathiaz> nxvl: link ?
 * nxvl searches
<nxvl> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-centralized-services-administrator
<nxvl> found it
<nxvl> it's like soren's blueprint for home servers (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-easy-business-server)
<nxvl> but more open i think
<mathiaz> nxvl: right - it's a general concept that is floating around
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> what i propose?
<nxvl> i have the idea to develop a framework
<nxvl> which will cary service-modules
<mathiaz> nxvl: ebox is already a framework - couldn't it be used to implement what you wanna do ?
<nxvl> so everyone can develop modules and have the service working on this tool
<nxvl> mathiaz: yes, that was my next point
<nxvl> as we have already ebox
<nxvl> i was thinking to limit my propose to developing a curses interface for ebox
<nxvl> what i don't really want to, is to install a web server on my firewall or file server
<mathiaz> nxvl: why not - you'd have to look into the ebox framework and see if it can be used to achieve that
<nxvl> but to have a tools where in which i can administrate and tune my services
<nealmcb> nxvl: have you tried running ebox via links or w3m?
<RoAkSoAx> you could also add support for LVS based clusters so that you just configure it in one server and replicate the configuration on other nodes of the cluster
<nxvl> mathiaz: yes, that's why i'm proposing
<RoAkSoAx> without having a tool to replicate like csync2
<nealmcb> nxvl: then you wouldn't have to expose the port to the outside world
<nxvl> RoAkSoAx: if it goes as i want to, everyone will be able to develop it separately and have it working for my propose or ebox without pain
<nxvl> nealmcb: exactly
<nealmcb> you'd just bind the apache port to localhost
<nxvl> nealmcb: or use resources on a web server, which i can use on my $SERVICE
<sommer> seems like one of the highest rated ideas on the brainstorm was for gui admin tools... just fyi
<mathiaz> sommer: yes
<nxvl> sommer: yep
<nxvl> sommer: so we can just then develop UI
<mathiaz> sommer: I went through brainstorm and extracted general tpocs
<sommer> cool
<mathiaz> sommer: *topics*
<nxvl> so i was thinking on find a way to develop different UI's for ebox and develop them
<mathiaz> sommer: they should be taken into account when scheduling session at UDS
<mathiaz> nxvl: ok - I think we're getting into the implementation details
<mathiaz> let's defear that to UDS
<sommer> mathiaz: sure, I'm really interested in the ldap, kerberos, domain one :)
<nxvl> yes
<nealmcb> how many people have tried ebox out?  will it be hard to get into main?
<nxvl> but i wanted to hear you opinion on this idea
<mathiaz> nxvl: write down your suggestion in the wiki page
<sommer> mathiaz: should there be a blueprint for documentation with regards to UDS?
<RoAkSoAx> as an addon to nxvl, cluster management could be included out of the box!
<mathiaz> sommer: yes - there should be a session about network authentication and identity management
<nealmcb> sommer: sounds very helpful to me
<mathiaz> sommer: I've asked for a documentation session
<sommer> mathiaz: awesome, thanks
<kirkland> mathiaz: sommer: I'm doing a blueprint on the Ubuntu Documentation Search, as well as an Ubuntu Manpages Website one
<mathiaz> sommer: you should register a blueprint so that we can track it and start down to write ideas
<mathiaz> sommer: such kirkland ^^
<kirkland> mathiaz: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+spec/ubuntu-documentation-search
<sommer> should I just add to kirkland's or create a new one?
<kirkland> sommer: i'd say create your own, and we'll link them together
<kirkland> i'm going to create a separate one for the Manpages business
<sommer> kirkland: cool, sounds good
<mathiaz> sounds good to me
<mathiaz> That's all I have
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Any other business
<mathiaz> someone want to add something ?
<nealmcb> how about delivering ibex as a virtual image?  would that be useful?
<nxvl> nealmcb: how as a virtual image? as in qemu image?
<nealmcb> yeah
<mathiaz> nealmcb: you mean providing a qemu image
<nxvl> what for?
<nealmcb> faster and easier than running install on jeos
<nxvl> mm
<nxvl> i don't even know what jeos is, so i will step aside on this topic
<mathiaz> nealmcb: could be interesting
<nealmcb> I also heard folks wanting to deliver on usb sticks - not sure if that is ready-to-run or for the installer
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I'd like to see a real use case for -server
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I see it usefull on desktop to be able to do a test run
<nealmcb> on amazon ec2 there are lots of folks packaging stuff up as images
<mathiaz> nealmcb: for -server, you'd base a production server on this ?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I heard there is ubuntu-server on EC2
 * mathiaz should look into EC2
<nealmcb> if my existing server runs kvm or whatever, and along comes ibex with cool stuff, it would be nice to just load and go into an existing vm
<mathiaz> nealmcb: right - so the use case would be to provide a kind of preview
<nealmcb> I'm also talking about packaging _applications_ and test cases - like what dan talked about
<mathiaz> nealmcb: so that people can poke around
<nealmcb> mathiaz: or a basis for building other stuff on
<mathiaz> nealmcb: right - that's a bigger plan
<nxvl> nealmcb: but we will need to have an image for each service
<nxvl> nealmcb: or you mean only base system?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: right - that would fall under the Virtual Appliance Builder toolkit or something like
<mathiaz> nealmcb: that
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I'm sure soren has crazy ideas in that area :D
<owh> On other topics, the server guide is *hard* to find.
<soren> I do indeed.
<nxvl> soren alway has crazy ideas
<nxvl> :D
<mathiaz> owh: it's listed on the main page of help.u.c
<owh> Sigh, I missed that.
<nealmcb> and it still says 2006 copyright iirc
<mathiaz> nealmcb: yop
<sommer> that was a good year :)
<nealmcb> "recycle that old stuff"
<nealmcb> but bits recycle well...
<owh> nealmcb: But is that really true if the electrons change :)
<mathiaz> I'm sure sommer will fix that for intrepid
<nealmcb> I hope the docs can be on the site when ibex ships this time around
<owh> nealmcb: That would be novel :)
<mathiaz> Allright - time to wrap up
<nealmcb> intrepid!
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
<mathiaz> Agree on next meeting date and time.
<owh> Heh
<mathiaz> same time, same place next week ?
<sommer> o//
<nxvl> o/
<owh> +1
<nealmcb> well I guess that was that....
<sommer> nealmcb: the copyright isn't actually in the serverguide source, so I'll figure out how the html is built
<owh> Strangely unfulfilling :_)
<mathiaz> great - so see you all next week
<mathiaz> same time, same place
<sommer> mathiaz: thanks, later on all
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<owh> Thanks mathiaz!
<soren> \o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-05-01
<nikil> 8-)
<mattik> Hello, I like to yet know how can I join channel where is kubuntu-meeting. Is it secret?
<juliux> mattik, try #kubuntu-devel
<mattik> juliux: thank you :) I am new in Team and I like to know what's coming
<juliux> mattik, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings the meeting will be in this channel;)
<mattik> juliux: Can I follow discussuion if I don't have membership, only launchpad page?
<juliux> mattik, yes meetings are open for everybody
<mattik> thanks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-05-03
<apachelogger_> haha, I am totally late ;-)
<apachelogger_> anyone around for the meeting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-04-27
<cprofitt> jcastro - ping
<Ex-TacY> hi all
<Ex-TacY> any wanna talk to me
<jussi01> Ex-TacY: I suggest you join #ubuntu-offtopic
<Ex-TacY> thx
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-04-28
 * persia peers about
<lifeless> hoi
<hemanth> hi
<amachu> hi
<linuxmalaysia> hi
<amachu> lifeless: persia: elky: Hi
<elky> oh, it's that day...
<elky> hi!
<amachu> elky: hi
<amachu> TheMuso?
<amachu> persia: there?
<persia> TheMuso may not be around: there was mail to the ubuntustudio list that implied being away.
<amachu> okie
<lifeless> he mailed the meeting list too
<amachu> we are four here now
<lifeless> rather more explicitly than implied
<amachu> lets begin
<amachu> beltz: zakame: TheMuso: missing
<lifeless> this one time, at the asia pac membership board
<amachu> lifeless: persia: elky: lets begin
<persia> Sounds good.
<amachu> so here is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<amachu> let me call one after other
<amachu> hemanth: Hi
<amachu> are you there?
<hemanth> amachu: hi
<hemanth> amachu: yes I am here
<amachu> Please go ahead
<hemanth> Hi I am Hemanth H.M
<amachu> sharing your contributions to Ubuntu
<hemanth> Am from India
<hemanth> ok :)
<ApOgEE-> hi
<hemanth> Doing my final year of graduation in computer science
<hemanth> Started using Ubuntu from 2004 , got active in launchpad and brainstrom after my friend Bhavani Shankar's suggestion
<itiknila> hi
<hemanth> In launchpad : I do answer tracking , bug management , specification tracking and translations
<hemanth> My mother tongue is kannada , i do translations in kannada with a help of my professor who has vast experience in the same
<amachu> hemanth: which language you contribute to?
<hemanth> kannada
<hemanth> south India language
<hemanth> In brainstrom , i have submitted many ideas and solutions listed here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hemanth_brainstrom
<hemanth> I am active on IRC more , as i feel it would be easy to troubleshoot and exchange information instantly .
<hemanth> Offline , i help many people near my place to switch to ubuntu , i go to there place and teach them how to install and spread the awareness of ubuntu and teach them to pass it on
<hemanth> I have given many public demonstrations , in schools and universities near my place about how to on ubuntu , will not hesitate to go and speak on even bigger stage , so that i can share more ideas and thoughts
<elky> hemanth, why is none of this on your wikipage?
<hemanth> I thought I should write only technical aspect and ubuntu contribution
<lifeless> hemanth: when did you start doing answers ?
<hemanth> 2007
<hemanth> To support the same , i made a very trivial website www.h3manth.com ,there are few post on common questions , people ask me while installing and when they are using ubuntu
<amachu> hemanth: public demostrations - have you logged about them some where?
<hemanth> no
<hemanth> it was made in schools near my place
<hemanth> *place
<hemanth> video recording couldn't be made
<amachu> where do you live in India?
<hemanth> Bangalore
<amachu> okie
<persia> So, I'm a little fuzzy on the direct contribution of brainstorm.  I see lots of ideas.  Is there also a coordination element to realise those ideas?
<hemanth> I will take recording from next time , it's a nice idea :)
<hemanth> persia: yes
<lifeless> I'm +1
<lifeless> the answers stuff is very long term and consistent
<lifeless> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/%7Ehemanth-hm/+questions
<hemanth> thank you :)
<lifeless> While I think your documentation of what you're doing could be better to make our job easier; our job is to assess *you*, not the docs.
<hemanth> ok ...
<persia> Bother.
<lifeless> I'd like to encourage you to get involved in more technical things too though, your background is excellent for direct contribution - taking some of the concrete ideas in brainstorm and help make them happen
<persia> I'm +1 on answers as well, but I wanted to understand brainstorm contributions more (as much for future applications as this).
<lifeless> [things smaller than the IDE perhaps :P)
<persia> Unfortunately, I can't keep my browser up, so I'll just be impressed with the votes from others.
<hemanth> ok :)
<lifeless> persia: have you tried talking to it softly?
<lifeless> persia: perhaps some light music, candles...
<persia> lifeless, hrm.  reverse philosophy.  I'll try that.
<amachu> hemanth: would have made it easy if you could have logged these in detail at wiki.. +1 from my end
<persia> But regardless of my browser problems >1400 positive vs. ~150 negative is very nice to see next to the answers data.
<elky> i'm still waiting for pages to load.
<hemanth> amachu: thanks :) , I will take your suggestions
<hemanth> persia: thanks :)
<amachu> elky: your opinion?
<amachu> elky: there?
<elky> yes, i'm still trying to review stuff
<amachu> elky: take you time, will wait
<amachu> take your time...
<elky> hemanth, i'm seeing in your brainstorm that you're suggesting things for stuff in launchpad... have you submitted bugs to be wishlisted at all?
<hemanth> no I haven't yet
<hemanth> on the same
<elky> why?
<hemanth> I thought it's an idea , and never thought of reporting a bug
<hemanth> reporting it as abug
<elky> also, i'm not familiar with brainstorm. I can only see like 3 days worth of ideas... 1-4 march. am i missing some?
<hemanth> yes
<elky> ah, the text is tiny, it's a month's worth, not 3 days
<hemanth> ok
<elky> hemanth, is it only a month of suggestions, or are there more?
<hemanth> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/contributor/hemanth.hm/ideas/
<lifeless> hemanth: something needs to take ideas from brainstorm and get them into the work queue for people, or do them
<elky> so only the 2 pages?
<lifeless> hemanth: you don't *need* to file bugs elsewhere, but doing so when a lot of people support your idea is a good way to help move the ideas along
<hemanth> ok
<hemanth> elky: yes , I was seeing ideas in sandbox , I was trying to storm more
<elky> I'm +0. while the past few months of answers and they are nice, it's the only evidence of activity i see, and most are only the past few months. while it's a good start, i'm not convinced of the sustained nature of contribution
<elky> s/answers/answers and brainstorm/
<lifeless> elky: there are years of answers
<persia> amachu, What's your call?
<elky> lifeless, how many for 2008 and 2007?
<lifeless> elky: click on the 'last' link on the answers page
<amachu> persia: I would give +1, as said the wiki should have been better
<lifeless> elky: 5-6 a month sustained
<bizkut> hi all
<bizkut> goodluck
<amachu> persia: yours?
<lifeless> elky: I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the evidence you're quoting appears inconsistent with what I see
<lifeless> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/%7Ehemanth-hm/+questions?start=100&batch=50 is the beginning of time
<lifeless> specifically, 137 answers, spotty before the start of 2008, so say 134 across 16 months
<lifeless> which is close to 9 a month in fact
<elky> lifeless, 1 for 2005, 2 for 2007, 2 for the first half of 2008, and the rest until now. it's just not my idea of 'sustained and significant'.
<lifeless> elky: so, 132 in 10 months?
<elky> lifeless, one comment on a launchpad question every 3 days
<lifeless> In my book thats pretty sustained; we're talking volunteer time, and the questions I popped into seemed to have solid answers
<amachu1> persia: lost in between
<elky> lifeless, you might as well invite every forum regular here then.
<lifeless> elky: thats a good idea ;)
<elky> all how many thousand of them?
<lifeless> if they are contributing to the community, thats what we're here to recognise and assess
<persia> Hum.  Lots of activity, but only 14 considered "answered".
<elky> persia, yeah, i noted that too.
<lifeless> answers is a bit odd in that regard
<lifeless> anyhow, we're a board to get an aggregate opinion
<elky> exactly
<lifeless> all I'm saying is that we should remember our focus :) we've been a bit myopic recently I feel
<amachu1> persia: what was your vote, when I asked for it? I lost in between
<elky> and i think there's a difference between a random regular and a significant impact.
<elky> but that's just me, it seems.
<persia> Well, I'm all for considering answers, or even forum activity, but I think that it's a good point as to whether it's considered "significant" and "sustained".
<persia> amachu, I'm confident of sustained.  I'm less sure of significant.
<elky> i think he's doing good, yes. and i thank him wholeheartedly for it. i just dont match it to the criteria we're given to judge against.
<persia> I still can't get my browser to show me the brainstorm stuff, but of the answers I'm sampling, I'm seeing many not completely answered.
<amachu1> persia:  overall is it +1 or +0?
<lifeless> elky: we're not asked to assess impact so much as contribution; people don't need to be rock stars to be members
<persia> lifeless, Well, what else is "signfiicant"?
<elky> lifeless, significance is an impact whether you want it to be or not.
<persia> I don't mean it requires "rock star" status, but it does imply something more than just being there.
<elky> it's like comparing an aquaintance to a friend, imho.
<hemanth> power fail I ups is down :(
 * persia tries to look at brainstorm harder
<lifeless> elky: thats a good analogy - you can't say what makes someone one or the other but you can tell which is which
<lifeless> :)
<elky> lifeless, exactly.
<lifeless> btw https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/~hemanth-hm/+answeredquestions is totally bong
<lifeless> its like some of the bug summary pages that lp just fails on
<persia> amachu, I'm going to vote +0 finally.  I still can't get to brainstorm to see the impact there, but based on the comments above about lack of bugs or specs developed from brainstorm, I think it's not quite there yet.
<amachu1> ok fine..
<elky> persia, amachu is supposed to be the one with the shonky network! :P
<amachu1> hemanth: as you should have noticed, its 2 in favour out of 4 members present here..
<amachu1> and elky persia would like to see more out of you..
<persia> hemanth, And it may be that if I could see brainstorm, it would be enough: it's just a bit more of the same, plus helping get your solutions into Ubuntu (to avoidn future questions) that needs doing.
<amachu1> you have done god job.. keep up the good work.. and looking forward to see you soon..
<amachu1> hemanth: there?
<elky> he said something about a UPS failure
<amachu1> elky: yes
<amachu1> ok.. linuxmalaysia: are you there?
<linuxmalaysia> yes
<linuxmalaysia> Im here
<rawang> hi
<ApOgEE-> go go linuxmalaysia !!
<rawang> is the meeting under going?
<amachu1> Please go ahead
<linuxmalaysia> ok tq
<linuxmalaysia> Im Harisfazillah Jamel
<linuxmalaysia> Im from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
<linuxmalaysia> Im now working with project Open Source Competency Centre (OSCC), MAMPU as RnD Team Lead.
<persia> elky, It's not a network issue: entirely software.
<linuxmalaysia> OSCC Promoting and providing OSS policy in Malaysia public sector.
<linuxmalaysia> http://opensource.mampu.gov.my/
<linuxmalaysia> Linux user since 1998
<linuxmalaysia> Ubuntu user since 2006
<linuxmalaysia> Wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/linuxmalaysia
<linuxmalaysia> Lauchpad Profile : https://launchpad.net/~linuxmalaysia
<elky> linuxmalaysia, you came to us last meeting, yes?
<linuxmalaysia> yes but im stuck with other management meeting
<lifeless> linuxmalaysia: in mysig, was that every weekend you did classes?
<elky> ok, it's not dejavu then :D
<linuxmalaysia> Yes. We do our classes every weekend since 2001 till 2004. Later I continue with classess in OSCC.
<lifeless> is that still every weekend?
<lifeless> or some less hectic schedule?
<amachu1> linuxmalaysia: would like to know more on your Ubuntu contributions..
<linuxmalaysia> This group dormant since 2004. But It our main Agenda now to active back MySIG
<linuxmalaysia> Ubuntu LOCO Team is involved with this
<elky> linuxmalaysia, what have you done since we last spoke to you?
<lifeless> linuxmalaysia: with OSCC, how often do you do classes?
<linuxmalaysia> Im the adminstrator for Ubuntu Mirror
<linuxmalaysia> http://mirror.oscc.org.my/ubuntu/
<linuxmalaysia> In oscc it all depand on training unit. Usual training desktop may occur once a month
<lifeless> ok, thats part of your job now?
<linuxmalaysia> Im also involved with Ubuntu Malay Translation
<linuxmalaysia> for Ubuntu
<linuxmalaysia> Ive create this page to promote the Malay translation
<linuxmalaysia> http://knowledge.oscc.org.my/practice-areas/rnd/projek-terjemahan-bahasa-melayu
<persia> I notice a bit of a gap in your recent translations, from January through April.  What happened?
<hemanth1> lifeless: amachu1: persia:sorry I was offline
<hemanth1> lifeless: amachu1: persia:power fail
<persia> hemanth, I'll copy you log in a /query
<lifeless> hemanth1: that end vote was +2, from 4 votes
<linuxmalaysia> Im in management team for OSCC. beginning of the years Im involved with meeting related to policy decision
<hemanth1> lifeless: what does it imply
<lifeless> hemanth1: we're onto another applicant now - please read persia's log, and we can chat briefly with you after the current applicant
<linuxmalaysia> Im going to continue that after MSC OSCONF 2009 this june.
<hemanth1> ok
<linuxmalaysia> another my contribution is by pushing OSCC products to used lauchpad
<linuxmalaysia> we start with MyMeeting
<linuxmalaysia> https://launchpad.net/mymeeting
<elky> how is that an Ubuntu contribution?
<linuxmalaysia> We would like the agencies to used Ubuntu as its easy to install and most of the IT personnels know ubuntu then any other distro
<linuxmalaysia> MyMeeting is a online meeting management for Malaysian government build and support by OSCC MAMPU
<e-jat> https://edge.launchpad.net/~oscc/+archive/ppa
<lifeless> I'm +0.5
<elky> i understand you're doing alot for Linux, but i'm failing to see how many of these things are contributions to Ubuntu *specifically*
<lifeless> my reasons are: you've shown solid and committed (wow, years of weekly volunteer weekend classes) contributions in the past, but current contributions seem sketchy and perhaps somewhat limited to what your job needs
<linuxmalaysia> elky.
<linuxmalaysia> I'm using Ubuntu for more than 3 years now. I've also suggest and implement the used of Ubuntu Desktop in OSCC MAMPU. All solution related to office environment in OSCC MAMPU is base on Ubuntu. Every thing is Ubuntu in our office.
<e-jat> elky, linuxmalaysia always be a speaker .. especially using ubuntu in government agencies
 * GunbladeIV here as one of linuxmalaysia fans :D
<linuxmalaysia> My attention is to put our office environment as all out Open Source office example for government agencies in Malaysia. Ubuntu is the key to promote and tools to change the Desktop of each computers in Malaysian Government to used Open Source Software and solutions.
<amachu1> linuxmalaysia: are there people supporting you here?
<e-jat> amachu1, me
<lifeless> amachu1: e-jat and GunbladeIV are
<linuxmalaysia> It's harder than it's look, users rejection and attack from vendor but I believe we can do that. We have prove ourself Ubuntu Desktop can work in office environment and we want to duplicate it around Malaysia.
<itiknila> amachu1. me
<ApOgEE-> amachu1, yeah me too...
<persia> linuxmalaysia, Yes, but the stuff you're referencing is about promoting all of open source, which is where the question is raised.
<amachu1> and the wiki too lacks testimonials
<elky> promoting launchpad is not really an Ubuntu contribution. Launchpad != Ubuntu
 * ApOgEE- is here to support linuxmalaysia 
<norly>  /me support linuxmalaysia
<linuxmalaysia> persia : Ubuntu is part of Open Source and I believe by promoting Open Source we are also promoting Ubuntu
<GunbladeIV> persia: he is promoting all of open source due to work policy, but Ubuntu is the main OS being promoted.
<bizkut> elky, he developes MyMeeting on top of Ubuntu, hence promoting Ubuntu as it's base
<linuxmalaysia> because each time Im doing my talks in conference I'll will show ubuntu when I present
<amachu1> linuxmalaysia: certainly.. the OSCC MAMPU seminars you have referred dates back to June 2008..
<linuxmalaysia> In our exbition we always sjowcase ubuntu to the visitors and participant
<ApOgEE-> elky, most of the government people in Malaysia know Ubuntu via OSCC ...
<linuxmalaysia> distibuted free Ubuntu
<amachu1> you have done good job in the past..
<GunbladeIV> + to ApOgEE- 's point
<linuxmalaysia> we print ourself more than 1000 Ubuntu CD for this purpose
<lifeless> raising my vote to +1
<GunbladeIV> amachu1: and in the future too.. please look for http://mscoscon.my
<lifeless> I think linuxmalaysia falls in the 'hard to quantify' category
<GunbladeIV> amachu1: generally linuxmalaysia help a lot ubuntu-my community to help promoting ubuntu during the conference
<e-jat> linuxmalaysia n me also having meeting with canonical for desktop project in malaysia schools
<linuxmalaysia> It is not easy to get the buy in from the management. but believe me by promoting OSS and making Ubuntu the main example nad show them it works.
<amachu1> GunbladeIV: thats Open Source.. comprising all..
<elky> lifeless, indeed, i'm mostly seeing pure coincidence
<linuxmalaysia> elky yes. Promoting OSS need examples. A good one and I believe Ubuntu has done that.
<amachu1> i do understand linuxmalaysia is taking Ubuntu wherever he can as his priority, over others
<ApOgEE-> amachu1, Ubuntu-my got a big slot at classroom and hands-on tutorial at MSCOSCON.my
<linuxmalaysia> amachu: Thanks Ubuntu always the main disto for me and the others in OSCC to promote OSS
<lifeless> elky: governments have a tendancy to be allergic to single supplier products; so folk tendering/suggesting tools often have to position things more generically even when only one product is what they want to put in
<lifeless> elky: see all the fuss about open documentation standards for instance
<elky> amachu1, indeed. however i'm mildly annoyed that i asked for specific things, and got vagueness back.
<linuxmalaysia> lifeless : yes I agreed. But if you can show to them Ubuntu is better than the others thjat should be not a problem
<GunbladeIV> amachu1: indeed - but we need to promote ubuntu through this kind of events due to awareness level in my is low atm. and he is the one making it happen.
<e-jat> http://tinyurl.com/cbcazs <--  linuxmalaysia actively join ubuntu-my meetup
<persia> linuxmalaysia, So, to repeat a question from above, there seems to have been a gap in your translations activity this spring.  What happened?
<lifeless> persia: ITYM this autumn
<persia> GunbladeIV, e-jat We'd really prefer to have linuxmalaysia answer the questions.
 * e-jat sorry .. 
<persia> lifeless, Hrm, perhaps.
<GunbladeIV> persia: roger :) - unplug my keyboard
<linuxmalaysia> persia: Im involved with management meeting that related to planning of OSCC early each years
<lifeless> persia: as much as autumn/spring apply to malaysia :)
<linuxmalaysia> usualy Im more active after mid years
<persia> lifeless, No, I mean sprint
<persia> s/sprint/spring/
<elky> lifeless, i understand that. and i'm trying to decide what number to vote since i got cryptic answers to everything i asked.
<lifeless> elky: kk
<lifeless> persia: hmm, just north of the equator...ok ;)
<linuxmalaysia> It not easy to balance between jobs, family and contribution to Ubuntu
<persia> lifeless, By the smallest amount: I had to check.
<lifeless> :)
<linuxmalaysia> but I want to make the best of my time to contribute to Ubuntu mostly malay translation
<linuxmalaysia> we have gap for many years since last translation projects
<linuxmalaysia> Ive make a page for this to promote ubuntu translation
<linuxmalaysia> http://knowledge.oscc.org.my/practice-areas/rnd/projek-terjemahan-bahasa-melayu
<elky> linuxmalaysia, /rnd/ meaning random?
<linuxmalaysia> RnD = Research and Development
<elky> ah
<linuxmalaysia> Im also in talk with Gen Kanai from Mozilla to get the po from Ubuntu transaltion to commit Malay po to main branch
<elky> i think i'll go +0.5. but i'm still quite confused at what is actually a conscious contribution to ubuntu and what is mere coincidence.
<linuxmalaysia> Elky: Im promoting OSS by using Ubuntu
<linuxmalaysia> by making OSCC office to used Ubuntu
<linuxmalaysia> by making all the managers to used ubuntu
<linuxmalaysia> by making all our talk in seminars to used Ubuntu
<bizkut> http://blog.mozilla.com/gen/2009/04/01/bahasa-malaysia-mozilla-firefox/
<linuxmalaysia> We have create interest in government agencies to used ubuntu as their desktop solutions
<linuxmalaysia> and 2 of agencies already used ubuntu as total ubuntu in theire office that can be total up to 200 users
<elky> amachu1, persia? did you two vote yet?
<linuxmalaysia> We are now pushing more agencies to change to Linux desktop aka Ubuntu desktop
<amachu1> linuxmalaysia: are you the person who is going to handle the talk on Ubuntu at http://www.mscmalaysia.my/osconf
<persia> I'm +1.  I'm not convinced just from the MyOSS stuff, as from what I can see it's very generic, but when so many recognisable names from ubuntu-my speak in favour, that's enough to tip the balance.
<amachu1> linuxmalaysia: hearing me?
<elky> hes still in the channel
<lifeless> linuxmalaysia: 21:13 < amachu1> linuxmalaysia: are you the person who is going to handle the talk on Ubuntu at http://www.mscmalaysia.my/osconf
<linuxmalaysia> Nope it will be handle by Ubuntu-my loco
<lifeless> linuxmalaysia: who is presenting the talk
<linuxmalaysia> but the slot, installfest and booth is manage by me
<e-jat> lifeless, beluz n maybe prakash advani from canonical
<e-jat> lifeless, im inviting belutz to be one of the speaker for ubuntu slot in MSC OSCONF 2009
<linuxmalaysia> so ive busy time with handling all that
<linuxmalaysia> beluz and parkash will be handling the talk
<amachu1> linuxmalaysia: thats the confusion.. more generic stuff onto the wiki which is supposed to give a clear info on your sustained contribution to Ubuntu
<linuxmalaysia> our idea is to get 3 persons from ubuntu on the stages, beluz, parkash and one from loco to present on the talk
<linuxmalaysia> amachu1: Yes I believe I should write more on my contribute in term of Ubuntu
<linuxmalaysia> by Im myself not easy to brag abour oneself
<linuxmalaysia> talk less work more
<elky> linuxmalaysia, get your teammates to write down what they know you've done, then you bulk it out.
<linuxmalaysia> elky ok will do that
<itiknila> Nature of a Malaysian: We don't brag....much! haha
<amachu1> elky: I would give +1, based on proof of contributions for almost few years now and the presence of Loco team members supporting linuxmalaysia
<elky> itiknila, he's done plenty of bragging tonight. just none with clear links
<linuxmalaysia> thanks amachu
<amachu1> so 3 out of 4 for linuxmalaysia, right?
<linuxmalaysia> elky this one of them http://blog.harisfazillah.info/2008/06/trip-to-miri-sarawak-malaysia.html
<itiknila> answering questions != bragging
<linuxmalaysia> we bring along Ubuntu CD to all OSCC seminars and ditribute to participant
<linuxmalaysia> *participants
<amachu1> persia: lifeless: elky: I welcome linuxmalaysia!
<amachu1> is that fine?
<elky> amachu1, i was and still am +0.5, so 3.5
<linuxmalaysia> Thank you amachu
<amachu1> elky: cool..
<linuxmalaysia> elky. Still thanks for me. Im will brag more about ubuntu
<linuxmalaysia> *from me
<amachu1> linuxmalaysia: Welcome! keep up the good work..
<hemanth1> linuxmalaysia: congrats
<linuxmalaysia> Thanks amachu
<rawang> congrats linuxmalaysia :)
<itiknila> linuxmalaysia: Congrat!s!
<linuxmalaysia> tnks hemanth
<amachu1> raywang?
<rawang> amachu1, yeah :)
<amachu1> rawang: its your turn
<rawang> is it my turn?
<rawang> ok
<e-jat> amachu1, so linuxmalaysia in ?
<amachu1> e-jat: yes
<linuxmalaysia> tq all. tq to Malaysian LOCO team
<lifeless> congrats linuxmalaysia
<elky> linuxmalaysia, to be pedantic i am going to point out that it's LoCo :P
<linuxmalaysia> thanks lifeless
<e-jat> elky, :)
<linuxmalaysia> thanks elky. By loco supports Im accepted
<rawang> couldn't i become the membership if my contribution is less then linuxmalaysia? :P
<rawang> ok, should i start or wait for you ask?
<persia> rawang, Please introduce yourself.
<rawang> ok
<rawang> I'm from China, and I'm Ubuntuer
<rawang> I like it since i first use it.
<rawang> my first ubuntu distribution is Breezy, so i use ubuntu for  near 3.5 years,
<amachu1> rawang: Please go ahead
<rawang> i have engaged people to use Ubuntu and help them out.for years.
<rawang> and answered questions on http://forum.ubuntu.org.cn/
<rawang> the url is the ubuntu China website, i'm not sure it is official or not.
<rawang> I'm also a Ubuntu LoCo Enthusiast
<rawang> and i participated in Ubuntu LoCo Enthusiasts and Ubuntu Simplified Chinese Translators group
<rawang> i'm a mono a11y engineer, and currently i'm working on build mono a11y stuff on my ppa, next step, i'm like to be a MOTU, and core developer is my future goal.
<rawang> my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RayWang
<rawang> and launchpad is https://launchpad.net/~raywang
<persia> rawang, Did you bring anyone to support you?
<rawang> i did  translation both on launchpad and gnome.org, promote Ubuntu on the OSS meeting, you could look at the photo in my lauchpad page :)
<rawang> yeah, freeflying is my friend, but seems like he is not available now. :(
<persia> Well, I'm +0.
<elky> likewise. He sounds like a perfect recruit to the MOTU stables though
<persia> Insufficient documented advocacy with the LoCo team (which could be improved with updates to the wiki page), no supporters, and karma of 4.
<amachu1> rawang: would like to see more on the wiki, with suitable references
<persia> That said, I do think that there's a good path towards working with the developers, and going that route.  I'd recommend asking freeflying to introduce you around #ubuntu-motu.
<rawang> yeah but to be a MOTU,
<amachu1> keep up good work and +0 from me, this time around
<rawang> i'd should be a ubuntu member, right?
<amachu1> rawang: not necessary..
<amachu1> lifeless: your thoughts?
<persia> rawang, Yes, but if you're seeking membership based entirely on development activities, you should seek membership from the MOTU Council.
<lifeless> rawang: I concur with the other board members; you sound like you're doing a bunch of open source things (which is good), but few are solid Ubuntu *community* contributions, and this is the community board.
<lifeless> rawang: MOTU grant memberships too
<persia> amachu1, It's a rare developer that becomes MOTU without first being a member (although it does happen).
<lifeless> persia: actually, I think its rather common, but my measurements may be skewed.
<persia> lifeless, Well, I'd argue we could grant membership for a developer, as long as they also had other involvements.  I'd be less confident in the case of a pure-developer.
<elky> motu is like a combination of the two processes in the end.
<lifeless> persia: I agree with the sentiment
<amachu1> persia: i agree
<elky> yep
<rawang> So this is the community contribution board?
<lifeless> yes
<persia> rawang, Well, no.  This is the regional membership board, for all sorts of contributions.
<elky> it is one of them.
<rawang> persia, ok :)
<persia> There are two others (for the other regions).
<lifeless> s/the/a/
<amachu1> rawang: you can still be here.. but today for me the wiki lacks suitable references and would like to see more clarity
<rawang> But I'd like to contribute to our packages on Ubuntu, and I do like Ubuntu very much
<rawang> and this is our stuff http://www.mono-project.com/Accessibility:_Team
<rawang> amachu1, understand
<persia> rawang, Get in touch with freeflying.  If that doesn't work, feel free to /query me to help you down that path.
<amachu1> rawang: keep contributing
<amachu1> best wishes
<amachu1> lifeless: your comments awaited
<rawang> persia, sure, I will do, ,thanks a lot for your guys helps :)
<rawang> so all of you are +0? :P
<amachu1> lifeless: there?
<amachu1> rawang: this time ;-)
<rawang> sure :)
<lifeless> amachu1: I commented
<lifeless> amachu1: 21:35 < lifeless> rawang: I concur with the other board members; you sound like you're doing a bunch of open source things (which is good), but few are solid Ubuntu *community* contributions, and this is the
<lifeless>                   community board.
<amachu1> lifeless: got it, Thanks
<rawang> persia, so you opinion is trying to reach freeflying, and go to MOTU board to become a ubuntu member?
<persia> rawang, -> /query
<amachu1> khanh_coltech ?
<amachu1> is not here
<amachu1> hemanth1: We are two out of four for you today.. Best wishes for the future
<hemanth1> amachu1: thanks :)
<lifeless> hemanth1: we can talk now; didn't want to leave someone half-answered after starting with them
<amachu1> and I have a reminder to share, we are yet to find new Board Members..
<hemanth1> I always dreamt of becoming a ubuntu member , so that i can serve the community to the fullest , but I didn't impress all , please help me to imporve
<persia> hemanth1, I think the suggestions you received about involving yourself more directly, turning questions and ideas into bugs, is probably the best path forward.
<amachu1> any other thing to share?
<persia> amachu1, What's the procedure for nominating someone again?  Do I just do it here?
<hemanth1> can anyone here mentor me
<lifeless> persia: the list perhaps?
<amachu1> persia: please share it in mailing list so that TheMuso and other can also have a look at it..
<persia> Right.  I'll send mail.
<persia> hemanth1, I'd recommend asking for help on #ubuntu-bugs to get started: there's a bunch of links in the /topic, which include some mailing lists.
<amachu1> and once we are ok, we will take the consent of the person recommended and add him/ her to the team..
<hemanth1> persia: ok
<amachu1> is that all for the day?
<lifeless> I have no items for the agenda
<elky> hemanth1, #ubuntu-bugs deals with bugsquashing stuffs. i'm sure someone there can mentor you if that's the kind of thing you're interested in
<hemanth1> elky: ok
<hemanth1> elky: I just ask in the IRC or is there a fixed way for tht ?
<persia> hemanth1, Just ask in IRC.
<hemanth1> ok
<hemanth1> thank you everyone
<hemanth1> ill take the suggestions and improve
<lifeless> there is also plenty of wiki pages about bugs
<hemanth1> ok
<hemanth1> I will put in all my efforts , and surely join you all :)
<amachu1> thank you all for participating. our next meeting will be on 12 May
<amachu1> Thank you
<rawang> thank you lifeless persia amachu1 :)
<effie_jayx> @now
<ivoks> o/
 * mathiaz waves
<sommer> hellows
<Brazen> \o
<nijaba> o/
<mathiaz> all right - let's get the Ubuntu Server Team started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> First of all: thanks everyone for the hard work put in pulling a new release
<ivoks> anytime :)
<mathiaz> Jaunty is an awesome release and one step closer to world domination
<mathiaz> I hope you all celebrated this last release
<mathiaz> and took some time to sit back, relax and enjoy the results
 * kirkland did :-)
<mathiaz> let's move on to current matters
<Brazen> ... after installing the upgrade on all your computers first, right?
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090421
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Release party at the Jackalope bar in Austin, TX.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release party at the Jackalope bar in Austin, TX.
<mathiaz> kirkland: ^^ how did this go?
<kirkland> mathiaz: well it was *awesome* of course
<kirkland> mathiaz: superm1 took some pictures, i haven't gotten them yet
<kirkland> mathiaz: i suspect we were the only release party to hold such festivities at a bar named after the Ubuntu release :-)
<kirkland> mathiaz: there were about 30 people present
<kirkland> mathiaz: guinness were $2.50/pint, happy hour prices :-)
<mathiaz> kirkland: looks like you guyz had a good time
<mathiaz> kirkland: any plans for the next release party?
<kirkland> mathiaz: as a matter of fact, there is a bar in Austin called "Karma"
<kirkland> mathiaz: i suspect we'll hold the next release party there :-)
<ivoks> i bet there's lots of those all around the world :)
<kirkland> ivoks: hopefully so!
<ivoks> kirkland: we even have a singing group called karma :D
<kirkland> ivoks: probably more than bars named The Jackalope
<ivoks> kirkland: most probably :)
<kirkland> anyone else had a good release party?
<kirkland> ivoks: what was shaking in Croatia?
<ivoks> kirkland: oh, we had a intstall fest in student's club
<ivoks> kirkland: and a bit of demonstration what's new in jaunty... nothing special
<ivoks> i celebrated in the mountains :)
<mathiaz> well - it seems that we've got plans for the most important item for this coming release cycle
<nijaba> the party in london was great too.  In his toast, Mark named Jaunty the best server release ever!
<kirkland> ivoks: i enjoyed your Ubuntu Action Shots
<ivoks> kirkland: hehe
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to organize the Austin release party for Karmic in the Karma bar
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to organize the Austin release party for Karmic in the Karma bar
<kirkland> mathiaz: ack
<mathiaz> That brings us to the next topic: what should be celebrated?
<kirkland> mathiaz: others are to find karma bars nearby too
<nijaba> mathiaz: montreal: http://restomontreal.ca/portal/karma/index.php?lang=fr
<kirkland> mathiaz: we also have a sports bar called Aussie's, with koala's everywhere
<kirkland> mathiaz: so that would work too, in a pinch
<ivoks> yeah... koala should be better :)
<ivoks> karma is just too easy
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Features for karmic
<MootBot> New Topic:  Features for karmic
<mathiaz> As you may know, next UDS is less than a month away
<mathiaz> now is the time to make your ideas known
<mathiaz> and start discussing them
<ivoks> i would like to see ldap getting everywhere possible
 * nijaba agrees with ivoks :)
<sommer> me too, me too
<mathiaz> how to do so? Start a wiki page to outline your ideas
<ivoks> so, that's it then :D
<mathiaz> register a blueprint in launchpad, nominate for the karmic uds
<kirkland> mathiaz: wiki page, or blueprint first?
<ivoks> this is a lot of work, so we should target karmic+1 for that, but do as much as possible in karmic
<mathiaz> kirkland: hm - good question
<mathiaz> kirkland: it seems that people are first using blueprints to do a quick braindump
<mathiaz> we end up with thousand of blueprints now
<kirkland> mathiaz: i thought that was what dendrobates asked us to do
<kirkland> mathiaz: to schedule a uds session, a blueprint must exist
<kirkland> mathiaz: my understanding was that the UDS organizers would schedule sessions based on "accepted" blueprints
<kirkland> mathiaz: from the output of UDS, if a blueprint was then "approved", then a wiki spec is expected
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok.
<kirkland> mathiaz: and based on the wiki spec, work would commence :-)
<kirkland> mathiaz: but, as you say, this has been very much in flux
<kirkland> mathiaz: so it's possible i'm confused, too
<kirkland> mathiaz: i added far more blueprints than i expect to get approved
<kirkland> mathiaz: also, dendrobates asked that server-related blueprints start with "server-karmic-*" for sorting purposes
<kirkland> mathiaz: and that they should be proposed for the Karmic sprint
<mathiaz> kirkland: all right.
<mathiaz> So the process is: create (or rename) a blueprint starting with server-karmic-, propose it for the karmic sprint
<ivoks> ok
<mathiaz> This will get the idea on dendrobates' radar and he'll select the ones to be discussed at uds
<mathiaz> ivoks: FYI I'm working on the ldap+kerberos issue - I should have a couple of blueprints ready in the next few days
<ivoks> mathiaz: great
<mathiaz> so get your ideas out there and let the ubuntu developer community know about them
<mathiaz> any questions about this process?
<ivoks> if you don't know where to start
<ivoks> check brainstorm and let's do something lots of people want
<kirkland> jcastro: can you point us to some of the most popular server-related brainstorm requests?
<ivoks> kirkland: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/server/
<kirkland> jcastro: doesn't have to be now, but perhaps post to the ubuntu-server@ mailing list this week?
<jcastro> kirkland: after my session with mark
<jcastro> sure
<kirkland> jcastro: doh.  ivoks has it :-)
<ivoks> what? is this true? php5-mysql isn't part of LAMP?
<ivoks> i would say that idea '
<ivoks> about the lamp stack is a bug, not an idea
<mathiaz> ivoks: php5-mysql *is* part of the LAMP stack
<mathiaz> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/ubuntu.jaunty/lamp-server
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/ubuntu.jaunty/lamp-server
<ivoks> great
<ivoks> adding gd library should be harmless...
<mathiaz> all right - let's move on
<mathiaz> ivoks: we can discuss all these ideas at UDS - it may be worth creating a blueprint to gather common ideas.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] High Availability Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  High Availability Team
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: ^^
<RoAkSoAx> heya
<RoAkSoAx> let me introduce myself first
<RoAkSoAx> I'm Andres Rodriguez, I one of the council members of the Ubuntu Peru LoCo. I've done some work for the server team before, working on some init scripts adding the status action.
<RoAkSoAx> The reason I've brought this up is because, as I explained mathiaz yesterday at his UOW presentation, I do think that packages such Heartbeat, Keepalived, ipvsadm, etc, etc, should be important to the server team since many companies work, and would like to work with HA clusters.
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: i was planing on bringing this on the table for UDS
<RoAkSoAx> Why is my interest in HA? because I did my thesis related to HA. I designed an architecture of HA clusters for webservers: more information: http://www.roaksoax.com/2008/07/ubuntu-in-my-thesis-part-2
<RoAkSoAx> And you can download it from here (It's in spanish): http://roaksoax.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/thesis.pdf
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: are you familliar with redhat cluster suite?
<RoAkSoAx> ivoks, unfortunately, no, just with tools such as hearbeat, DRBD, keepalived, ldirectord, lvs
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: so, if you are interested, i could give you a quick overview of current status
<RoAkSoAx> btw.. mathiaz proposed the creation of this HA team, yesterday at his presentation
<ivoks> that would be great...
<ivoks> since we lack people in that area :D
<mathiaz> The suggestion was to add hearbeat,  DRBD, keepalived, ldirectord, lvs
<mathiaz> packages to the ubuntu-server bug packages
<RoAkSoAx> I've also offered myself to provides HowTo's
<mathiaz> that would mean more bug mails on the ubuntu-server-bugs mailing list
<nxvl> how is that the Austin, TX Release party became important for the server team?
<mathiaz> my concern is that it may start to be too much
<ivoks> mathiaz: i would love to see in 6-12 months time ubuntu cluster stack, based on linuxha, instead of rhcs
<RoAkSoAx> such as: Hearbeat V1/V2, DRBD 3-node, DRBD integration with Heartbeat, keepalived, HAProxy, and so on
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: drbd 3-node is supported in 9.04
<nxvl> mathiaz: when wasn't?
<mathiaz> and that creating a team which would look after these specific packages may be a better idea
<ivoks> mathiaz: i agree
<nijaba> ivoks: I thought DRBD could support up to 8 nodes now?
<ivoks> nijaba: maybe some newer versions, but the one in 9.04 supports 3
<nijaba> ivoks: ok, thanks
<ivoks> nijaba: and that was a major move :)
<RoAkSoAx> nijaba, it supports 8 block devices
<RoAkSoAx> per each node
<ivoks> ah, right...
<nijaba> hence the confusion, thanks :)
<RoAkSoAx> well anyways, so how we should proceed on these
<mathiaz> I'd suggest to create the ubuntu-ha team
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: i would love to help with ubuntu-ha team
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: but i have couple of questions
<mathiaz> and make the team a bug contact for relevant packages
<mathiaz> That way you could start to look after the package
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: do you think we should support both linuxha and rhcs or just linuxa?
<mathiaz> starting by triagging the bugs, then starting fixing them
<mathiaz> once you get a handle on the state of the HA package in Ubuntu, we can think about improvements
<RoAkSoAx> ivoks, well i wouldn't know for sure... most of my work is with linuxha
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: ok...
<RoAkSoAx> i do know that companies thinks that rhcs is only for red hat based systems
<RoAkSoAx> and that is far from bneing the truth
<ivoks> cause of the name
<ivoks> if apache was called Debian Apache, everybody would think it's debian only :)
<RoAkSoAx> indeed
<mathiaz> ivoks: RoAkSoAx these discussions could be hold on mailing list
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, ok :)
<nxvl> ivoks: or if ufw was named Ubuntu Firewall
<mathiaz> now that LP support mailing list it's easy to get one setup for the ubuntu-ha team
<kirkland> mathiaz: i recommend pinging someone in #launchpad as soon as you make the mailing list request ;-)
<jdstrand> the 'u' in ufw has always been rather flexible, see /usr/share/doc/ufw/README.gz "What's in a name?" ;)
<mathiaz> so to move things forward: create an ubuntu-ha team, create a mailing list for, make the ubuntu-ha team a bug contact for relevant packages and start triagging bugs
<RoAkSoAx> ok
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: would you mind taking this task?
<nxvl> jdstrand: i know, that's why i was joking about that :D
<jdstrand> nxvl: :)
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, of course
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: i'll join the team
<mathiaz> [ACTION] RoAkSoAx to create an ubuntu-ha team, create a mailing list for, make the ubuntu-ha team a bug contact for relevant packages and start triagging bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  RoAkSoAx to create an ubuntu-ha team, create a mailing list for, make the ubuntu-ha team a bug contact for relevant packages and start triagging bugs
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] New HowTo's for the Server Guide, Clustering Related.
<MootBot> New Topic:  New HowTo's for the Server Guide, Clustering Related.
<RoAkSoAx> ivoks, awesome
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: I think this point is related to the one above.
<mathiaz> I'm sure sommer would love help in this area and would accept contributions
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, indeed, i'll be providing tutoriales of heartbeat v1/v2, integration with drbd, drbd 3 node, keepalived, and so on
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: Have you looked at the wiki page on help.ubuntu.com/community/ ?
<sommer> RoAkSoAx: yes, any help would be awesome
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: I'd suggest to have a look at the community help pages on h.u.com/community/, find which one are related to HA and review them
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, will do
<mathiaz> [ACTION] RoAkSoAx to look at the wiki pages on h.u.com/community/ and identify the ones relevant to HA
<MootBot> ACTION received:  RoAkSoAx to look at the wiki pages on h.u.com/community/ and identify the ones relevant to HA
<mathiaz> Anything else related to this topic?
<RoAkSoAx> not from me
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<mathiaz> Anything else to add?
<RoAkSoAx> ivoks, https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ha
<ivoks> k
<nealmcb> ivoks: thanks again for the jaunty work on mail integration, and getting good press for Ubuntu!
<nijaba> mathiaz: great mentions in the press lately, I think it is worth a big round of applause
<ivoks> nealmcb: :)
 * mathiaz cheers at ivoks 
<nijaba> and dustin too: http://tinyurl.com/dfxqpc
<nealmcb> yeah!
<nealmcb> the whole team!   Good to have you back, mathiaz!
<ivoks> it wasn't that good press :/
<nealmcb> press is always iffy.  but even bad press brings eyeballs and progress
 * kirkland high fives around!
<mathiaz> allright - time to wrap up
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<sommer> sure
<kirkland> mathiaz: ack!
<mathiaz> great - see you all next week, same time, same place
<RoAkSoAx> see ya guys!
<mathiaz> enjoy a beer while admiring jaunty and shaping karmic!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:59.
<ivoks> :)
<sommer> later on all
 * amitk waves
<bradf> Roll Call
 * rtg is here
 * cking is here
 * ikepanhc waves
<cooloney> ready
 * smb go
<bradf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bradf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bradf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bradf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "awe to report to kernel-team list with LPIA testing status"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "awe to report to kernel-team list with LPIA testing status"
 * apw phases in
<awe> we actually switched over last week to the new netbook-lpia kernel
<awe> so testing was successful
<apw> so things are under control.  the new tree is working so far.  think we can rip that off the adgenda
<bradf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "ogasawara smb_tp apw to discuss regression lists"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "ogasawara smb_tp apw to discuss regression lists"
<apw> smb, not sure we have managed to get to this yet have we?
<smb> Hrm, we havn't have we?
<smb> Too busy on other stuff...
<cking> surely not
<apw> bradf, keep that one on to remind us
<bradf> apw, maybe for AllHands :)
<bradf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "pgraner to schedule a UDS session for X lockup bug squashing"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "pgraner to schedule a UDS session for X lockup bug squashing"
<ogasawara> apw, smb: maybe we can schedule face to face time at UDS
<apw> ogasawara, for sure
<apw> pgraner is out today
<bradf> anyone know if the UDS session was scheduled?
<smb> we could let him know by mail
<smb> not me
<bradf> moving on...
<bradf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "manjo to deep dive on suspend/resume bugs to find patterns"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "manjo to deep dive on suspend/resume bugs to find patterns"
<cking> did manjo drown?
<manjo> bradf, have not got a chance to look at at that one
<bradf> ok
<manjo> bradf, I was doing some srus for jaunty last week... will try and get it done this week
<bradf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "ogasawara to schedule community bug days to coincide with kernel-team bug days"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "ogasawara to schedule community bug days to coincide with kernel-team bug days"
<ogasawara> bradf: done
<ogasawara> although I'll have to wait and see how much participation we actually get
<bradf> that's it for Open Items...
<bradf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty
<amitk> do we have many community triagers for kernel bugs?
<smb> For those: plan is to have Hardy and Intrepid move from propose to updates soon.
<ogasawara> amitk: we do off and on.  so I usually try to send them a personal email to say thanks etc.
<smb> Jaunty, I intend to package up and upload the first run to proposed tomorrow
<bradf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels: Others?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels: Others?
<bradf> [TOPIC] Karmic Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Status
<bradf> any Karmic status anyone wants to report?
<rtg> made 1st karmic upload this morning. working on getting armel to build.
<rtg> I'll be creating the other karmic packages later today or tomorrow
<amitk> rtg: you didn't add imx51 in there, or did you?
<rtg> amitk: I haven't changed the flavours.
<amitk> rtg: did you port the patch?
<rtg> are thwere some you want to drop?
<rtg> amitk: which patch?
<amitk> rtg: the imx51 patchset
<amitk> to 2.6.30rcX
<rtg> amitk: I rebased from Jaunty, so its likely still there
<amitk> cool
<bradf> rtg: are you still using Jaunty toolchain or have you tried the new karmic one?
<rtg> Its building using the cross compiler (for armel). everything else built in the karmic chroot
<bradf> [TOPIC] ARM Tree
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree
<bradf> nothing new from me w.r.t. ARM
<amitk> /dev/null
<bradf> [TOPIC] LPIA Tree
<MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA Tree
<rtg> amitk: what are we doing with to the arm instruction set for karmic?
<rtg> with respect to*
<amitk> rtg: no final decisions yet, but it is very likely we will switch to armv7-only
<rtg> which will force out some of the flavours, right?
<amitk> so all flavours except for imx51 will go away
<rtg> ok
<cooloney> great
<amitk> UDS topic I believe
<bradf> anything to report w.r.t. LPIA tree or did we already cover that?
<sconklin> all going well, with a couple of releases now
<bradf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions
<apw> well done sconklin
<sbeattie> is there a possibility we could get an lpia server kernel?
<rtg> sbeattie: for Jaunty?
<apw> sbeattie, what would that mean, waht difference
<sbeattie> karmic
<rtg> sbeattie: a PAE kernel?
<sbeattie> more of package consistency than any specific features.
<amitk> ?
<rtg> sbeattie: I'm thinking for karmic that we'll only have -generic and -generic-bigmem (or something)
<sbeattie> rtg: ah, okay.
<rtg> no server package for i386 or lpia
<smb> amitk, sound like the server installer but normal kernel
<ogasawara> re incoming bugs and regressions, I'm reviewing http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/regression/regression_tracker.html
<cooloney> rtg, how about numa flavor
<rtg> cooloney: I have no particular plans for NUMA
<apw> cooloney, there is a uds topic on what flavours we will have
<cooloney> ok, no problem
<bradf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> all quiet take that as nothing all round
<bradf> sounds right to me
<bradf> i guess that's it
<smb> Yeah, done :)
<bradf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:20.
<cooloney> thanks
<cooloney> bye
<cking> bye
<awe> ciao
<smb> \o
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-04-29
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> hmm... no meeting this week? :)
<james_w> slangasek: nope, there was a mail from Colin about it
<slangasek> yep, seen now
<ara> hello
<bdmurray> Hi!
<eeejay> howdy
<cr3> hi folks
<bdmurray> ogasawara, sbeattie, pedro_: ping
<intellectronica> 'alo
<davmor2> Hello
<pedro_> hola!
<sbeattie> hey
 * ogasawara waves
<cr3> yo homies
<bdmurray> cr3: where's your compadre?
<fader_> howdy
<schwuk> evening all
<intellectronica> bdmurray: you should have asked about a million dollar ;)
<bdmurray> hey there
<cr3> bdmurray: all here, my compadre, myself and each of my personalities
<pedro_> hehe
<fader_> cr3 has no compadres, just a bunch of sockpuppets
<bdmurray> Okay, lets get started then
<bdmurray> We seem to have grown a bit of an agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<cr3> fader_: they're the only ones who don't threaten to hit me for my aweful jokes :)
<bdmurray> pedro_: We've a bug day this week correct?
<davmor2> cr3: Right but your hand is in them right so they could ;)
<pedro_> yes that's correct, tomorrow we're celebrating another rocking hug day based on new bugs since the jaunty release
<bdmurray> Of which there are quite a few...
<pedro_> as you can see on the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090430 there's a big quantity of bugs waiting to be triaged (thanks bdmurray for the list!)
<cr3> davmor2: good point, I know one of my personalities wouldn't hesitate to hit me
<pedro_> yes there's a lot of them
<bdmurray> Hand in hand with that I've created a report of bugs since release
<bdmurray> Its at http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bugnumbers/bugs-since-jaunty.html
<cr3> in your opinion, do more bugs come in the last week before release or the first week after release?
<pedro_> everybody is welcome to join us during the whole day and help us to decrease the quantity of untriaged bugs
<davmor2> cr3: After more people using it
<bdmurray> It really seems like week after release to me, I could get some solid numbers if you are interested though
<pedro_> the week after we got more i'd say, the weekend after the release is just crazy
<ara> bdmurray: I see the bug about merge request is now fixed
<sbeattie> bdmurray: BTW, on http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bugnumbers/bugs-since-jaunty.html I see some bugs repeated.
 * pedro_ still catching up with bug mail
<sbeattie> e.g. 369220
<cr3> bdmurray: I was mostly curious ball park, but your response of "really seems" indicates there's lots both weeks and not a huge jump on the first week
<bdmurray> sbeattie: I don't see that lets discuss it after the meeting
 * cr3 wonders if support observes a directionaly proportional number of calls as there are bugs filed
<sbeattie> bdmurray: doh, wrong bug, bug 369215, but okay
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 369215 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] bashish" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/369215
<sbeattie> there was a kernel bug day yesterday, no?
<bdmurray> ogasawara: ?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: yes, had great participation from the kernel team (I'm still crunching the final numbers)
<bdmurray> ogasawara: That's primarily for the kernel team though, rather than a community event?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: we do encourage community participation, but didn't receive much yesterday
<bdmurray> ogasawara: and is that going to be a regular event?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: yes, twice a month
<bdmurray> okay, great!
<ogasawara> bdmurray: the next will be May 12th
<ara> ogasawara: was it in the fridge?
<ogasawara> ara: I don't believe so.  I'll make a note to get it posted there for the next one.
<bdmurray> Next item, we have 1 new bug control member - Andreas Olsson (andol) who has done some great work upstreaming and actually fixing bugs too!
<pedro_> ogasawara: remember to also blog about it ;-)
<ara> congrats andol!
<ara> bdmurray: when accepting a new member, you could let them know that they are going to be announced as a new member in the qa meeting
<ara> they might be interested in being here :)
<bdmurray> ara: sounds good
<bdmurray> next up sbeattie and SRU verifications for Jaunty
<sbeattie> As usual, there's a post-release explosion of SRUs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<sbeattie> We've already processed a bunch, but it would be great if people could help out verifying fixes and looking for regressions
<sbeattie> a bunch of people have already done so, thanks to you all!
<bdmurray> sbeattie: yeah, a lot of those are looking green which is good right?
<sbeattie> (and my apologies for not having specific names offhand)
<sbeattie> bdmurray: yep, green is good!
<ara> sbeattie: question
<bdmurray> ooh, this checkbox one should be easy - bug 354813
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 354813 in checkbox "Checkbox does not provide a valid URL to Launchpad" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/354813
<ara> sbeattie: I verified 366048 (update-manager). I commented the verification, but i did not change the tag
<ara> sbeattie: after reading the comment, pitti changed it
<cr3> bdmurray: that one was done
<ara> sbeattie: next time, should I change the tag myself?
<bdmurray> cr3: I don't see the verification-done tag
<cr3> bdmurray: ah, good point
<sbeattie> ara: generally, we've wanted sru-verification or the sru teams change the tags, pitti's pretty good about deciding when he's happy with the SRU.
<sbeattie> But I think it might be reasonable for people in bug-control to set it.
<bdmurray> sbeattie: however ara could join the sru-verification team right?
<sbeattie> yep
<bdmurray> sbeattie: maybe an e-mail to ubuntu-qa / bugsquad regarding sru verification reminder is in order
<pedro_> bug 366098 should be pretty easy to test as well
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 366098 in ubuntu-docs "ubuntu-serverguide has a "DRAFT" watermark" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/366098
<sbeattie> Basic requirements for joining that team are an understand of the SRU process and how to do verifications, and some sample bugs where you've demonstrated performing verifications
<sbeattie> bdmurray: good idea, will do.
<bdmurray> Okay, great - thanks sbeattie
<bdmurray> schwuk: you wanted to talk about OpenID?
<schwuk> bdmurray: thanks
<schwuk> this is quite straightforward
<schwuk> A user has filed a bug about the fact we should be using OpenID (and Launchpad) to authenticate to the QA sites
<schwuk> I agree.
<schwuk> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/365060/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 365060 in ubuntu-qa-website "allow launchpad IDs to login to *.qa.ubuntu.com" [Undecided,New]
<cr3> heh, I've rarely heard "openid" and "straightforward" in the same sentence :)
<schwuk> cr3: I meant the discussion :)
<pedro_> that'd be really neat to have :-)
<ScottK> Something similar has been done for REVU, so there's code available for anyone that wants it.
<cr3> schwuk: there's an apache modpython script for that
<schwuk> cr3: but it won't work for the iso tracker - that's a code change.
<bdmurray> ScottK: is that on Launchpad somewhere?
<davmor2> schwuk: personally I don't care as long as I can login :)
<schwuk> so we need the input of the maintainer (stgraber?)
<ScottK> bdmurray: It is.  I don't recall the project name (it may be revu)
<bdmurray> schwuk: yes, stgraber is the right person to contact
<schwuk> ScottK: what is revu written in?
<davmor2> schwuk: isn't he normally at lunch about now though?
<ScottK> Python
<schwuk> ah - most of the *.qa.ubuntu.com sites (that require authentication) are PHP/Drupal.
<cr3> I wouldn't be surprised there's an openid plugin for drupal already available, it might be worthwhile to involved newz2000 too
<bdmurray> schwuk: why don't you e-mail ubuntu-qa about it?
<cr3> http://drupal.org/project/openid
<schwuk> I've subscribed stgraber to the bug
<schwuk> That's it really, unless anyone has objections (unlikely I hope)
<schwuk> bdmurray: will do
<bdmurray> Okay davmor2 you wanted to talked about checkbox, hardware and launchpad correct?
<davmor2> Yeap
<davmor2> At the moment checkbox's results go to a random page linked to your lp account
<davmor2> I feel that because there is no direct link to it from your id page that the information gets forgotten about
<intellectronica> davmor2: how do you hope it will be used, if not forgotten?
<davmor2> As far as I can tell the info in there is similar to running lspci and would therefore useful in reporting bugs
<davmor2> intellectronica: you could add a hardware tab to LP so a user can quickly add their HW to a bug etc
<intellectronica> davmor2: if you have hardware submitted, just mark the bug as affecting you. we should get the link from the bug to your hardware behind the scenes
<schwuk> davmor2: technically, it's not a random page. Just to be pedantic. :)
<davmor2> schwuk: technically each page has a different id and therefore specific but random :P
<sbeattie> intellectronica: submitted hardware (for some of us) is likely to be a one-to-many relationship/
<davmor2> intellectronica: I have 6 machines currently how would it know which to use :)
<intellectronica> sbeattie: that's true in some cases (about 25% judging by samples from the current pool of submissions). in the future, we will add UI for selecting a particular hardware profile to link to a bug
<intellectronica> but that's not planned for the next few months
<sbeattie> intellectronica: ah, okay.
<davmor2> intellectronica: Ah Cool that would pretty much help the cause I think
<sbeattie> cr3: BTW, how is the submission hash generated? I noticed that my virtualbox submission had the same hash as 400 other submissions.
<sbeattie> (they're still referred to independently, just curious)
<cr3> sbeattie: it hashes these values from hal: computer.info.product, computer.info.subsystem, system.product, system.vendor, system.formfactor, hardware.vendor, hardware.product
<bdmurray> davmor2: Does that help?
<cr3> sbeattie: I suspect you meant the system hash rather than the submission hash
<davmor2> If the issue of using the data from checkbox is already under construction then the next issue I see is promoting both it's use and the use of the apport tools
<sbeattie> yes, sorry, system hash
<davmor2> bdmurray: Yes
<bdmurray> Right, so next then
<cr3> sbeattie: so, that hash is meant to express a system model rather than a system instance
<bdmurray> intellectronica: How many people are recently submitting hwdb information?
<bdmurray> Do we need to push it more?
<intellectronica> bdmurray: i don't know. let me get back to you on that
<cr3> sbeattie: I'm really not happy that this is being generated client side, so there is little chance to ajust this hashing mechanism without wrecking increadible havok
<cr3> intellectronica: ^^^
 * sbeattie notes we need to finish the checkbox sru so upgraders don't have a broken checkbox before pushing it more widely.
<intellectronica> cr3: do you think this should be done on the server?
<bdmurray> I personally haven't seen any blog posts / e-mails regarding we are using the hwdb now
<davmor2> I've thought of an interesting way to help promote their use by adding links to the Main Bug Reporting page saying have you tried using apport-collect X to help developers etc
<bdmurray> So perhaps blogging about that at qa.ubuntu.com and recommending people submit data is best
<cr3> intellectronica: let me put the question back at you: why shouldn't it be done on the server?
<intellectronica> bdmurray: we're only really starting now to make real use of the data. ogasawara can tell you more about that
<intellectronica> cr3: don't know. i don't even know what it's used for, and how you calculate it
<intellectronica> it would seem to me that you might want that as a way to identify a hardware profile. on the server we have sql ids for identifying things
<cr3> intellectronica: we'll discuss it further at some point outside this meeting then
<intellectronica> cr3: cool
<bdmurray> cr3: thanks
<bdmurray> ogasawara: Could you blog about the hwdb after we get checkbox SRUed?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: sure
<bdmurray> davmor2: one thing on my todo list is to update the standard responses and greasemonkey script to mention 'apport-collect'
<bdmurray> So I think that'll help some
<bdmurray> And for Karmic we have expaning apport hooks on the agenda
<bdmurray> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/UDSKarmic
<bdmurray> Putting 'apport-collect' info into the guided bug filing instructions is somewhat problematic as that only exits in 1 out of the 4 releases we support
<davmor2> bdmurray: That only really helps the people who already know about it's use though I think.  I'm wondering if maybe a generic link to a page that tells a new user how to use it and report a bug might help triager/developer in the long term and the obvious place for that would be the main bugs.launchpad.net page I think
<davmor2> bdmurray: it being the first place that people go to report a bug, No?
<bdmurray> davmor2: almost all bug filing documentation points at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs which explicitly states to use apport / ubuntu-bug
<james_w> apport-collect isn't that useful when you are filing the bug though is it? Wouldn't pointing to ubuntu-bug be better?
<bdmurray> Additionally, https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug-advanced points to the previously mentioned help page
<bdmurray> james_w: right apport-collect is useful after the bug's been filed and ideally wouldn't be necessary
<bdmurray> because people would have used ubuntu-bug to report the bug
<stgraber> schwuk: openID is planned for a long time, migration is the hard part but we're pretty close to being able to do it (now that we're on our own box and not the same as brainstorm)
<bdmurray> davmor2: Does that make sense now?
<schwuk> stgraber: cool
<stgraber> schwuk: next step is to get the module installed, then work on the migration as we have quite a lot of existing users with possible issues (clashes between Launchpad names and existing user DB)
<bdmurray> stgraber: that's great to hear! so soon canonical sysadmin help won't be required?
<stgraber> bdmurray: I don't have access to that box myself and I don't think anyone outside IS has access to it
<bdmurray> stgraber: oh, hrm
<davmor2> Kinda but I'm still think that if you type into google Ubuntu Bugs the top link is this page https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs  Here there is no indication the there is an existing page to help reporting bugs
<bdmurray> davmor2: but from there if you go to report a bug then'll you get a link to the wiki page
<bdmurray> I guess we could all link to mdz's blog post to get it to be number 1?
<bdmurray> Okay, we are running short on time.  davmor2 - can we carry over your last item for next week?
<davmor2> bdmurray: but that says advanced reporting options.  Which wouldn't mean a new user right?  If that makes sense
<davmor2> yes
<bdmurray> davmor2: No, after you go to file bug and enter the summary then you get the same text at -advanced
<davmor2> bdmurray: Ah right as long as it is in there :)
<bdmurray> I'm all for getting more people to use apport, I think it is more of a cultural thing though at this point
<bdmurray> And I'm sure ubuntu-bug and apport-collect will be talked about during Open Week right?
<davmor2> No idea you doing a talk :)
<ScottK> bdmurray: I think one barrier for people coming from other OS where they have not so much trust of the OS vendor is it's hard to tell what will get send to Launchpad before you agree to send it.
<bdmurray> ScottK: that makes sense, could apport be more informative somehow?
<sbeattie> ScottK: hrm, apport will let you view the report, though of course it could be lying to you.
<davmor2> ScottK:  You can look at the report first though can't you?
<ScottK> sbeattie: It isn't clear though that what you see is all that will be sent.
<ScottK> Let me try one and see...
<bdmurray> Yeah, maybe the verbage can be cleared up
<ScottK> Looking at it again, the thing I was concerned about was on the LP end.
<bdmurray> ScottK: How so?
<ScottK> After you click send, it just says 'extra debug information will be added"
<ScottK> There's no way to see what that is.
<ScottK> If you didn't check details before sending, now you've no way to see what gets added to the bug.
<bdmurray> I think we could clarify that what apport is showing you is the "extra debug info"
<davmor2> The debugging information might be better wording
<bdmurray> Also I don't think apport-collect shows you what it is gathering
<ScottK> I think it would also be useful to give the reporter visibility of what will be in the bug on LP before reporting the bug.
<ScottK> The key is to be as transparent as possible throughout the process.
<bdmurray> So it sounds like we have 2 apport bugs to report then - one regarding ubuntu-bug and extra debug info and one regarding apport-collect
<ScottK> I'm not sure where the presentation on LP gets filed.
<bdmurray> ScottK: I'm sure its quite faster to try and fix in apport
<ScottK> No doubt.
<davmor2> Time gentlemen please ;)
<bdmurray> Thanks everyone, same bat-time and bat-channel next week then!
<sbeattie> thanks!
<davmor2> Yay see you then
<pedro_> thanks all
<schwuk> ScottK: It should be filed against lp-bugs (what was malone)
<schwuk> thanks for chairing bdmurray
<ara> thanks
<ScottK> OK.  I'm probably not the best one to file it.
<bdmurray> ScottK: I'll do it then
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-04-30
<persia> Who's here for the Java Meeting?
<effie_jayx> me
<persia> OK.  Let's do it then :)
<persia> Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
<persia> Roadmap and specs for Karmic.
<persia> None of the roadmap reps seem to be present, so we'll skip that.
<persia> (I suspect it's a holiday week or something)
<persia> Anyone have any specs for Karmic they want to highlight, or shall we review again next week?
<persia> OK.  Let's take that up next week.
<persia> Any other business?
<persia> effie_jayx, You have anything?
<imbrandon> quick meeting :)
<effie_jayx> persia, nope Just Though I could join
<persia> Right.  Meeting adjourned then.
<persia> imbrandon, Always happens that way when nobody shows.  Usually it's 20-30 minutes, and we actually go over some stuff.
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090430
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090430
<NCommander> StevenK, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090430
<StevenK> Am I late?
<NCommander> StevenK, no, I just posted the link right before you joined.
<StevenK> If #startmeeting has happened, I am late :-/
<NCommander> StevenK, oh, well :-/
<NCommander> I'll wait until 17:01 next time
<NCommander> Anyway
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to investigate #338148
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to investigate #338148
<NCommander> Its on my plate, I poked it. It poked back. Carry over :-/
<NCommander> No lool, so
<NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to test newer version of Hildon Desktop to see if it resolves cat kills MID bug
<MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to test newer version of Hildon Desktop to see if it resolves cat kills MID bug
<GrueMaster> Tripped over moblin stuff.  CO.
<StevenK> I have related news
<NCommander> StevenK, ?
<StevenK> There is a newer hildon-desktop in Debian that MoM is reporting on, so maybe Karmic will just fix it ...
<persia> regarding lool's action item: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds
<NCommander> StevenK, who usually does hildon-desktop merges?
<StevenK> Whoever loses
<NCommander> not it
<NCommander> :-)
<NCommander> I'll add that I can't reproduce this issue on MER which is based on newer hildon-desktop's then we have in jaunty or karmic
<NCommander> GrueMaster, if I end up looking at the merge, I'll test this (most of my merges are done already)
<GrueMaster> Ok.
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to rebuild gnome-keyring-daemon to troubleshoot #328167
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to rebuild gnome-keyring-daemon to troubleshoot #328167
<NCommander> ogra, ping?
<ogra> sorry
<StevenK> ogra!
<StevenK> ogra: *prod*
<ogra> didnt we want to drop that one from the weekly list ?
<NCommander> ogra, I had it as an action item
<ogra> drop it ...
<NCommander> Gone
<ogra> thanks
<NCommander> ... *kicks the wiki*
<NCommander> [topic] Bugs of Interest to the Ubuntu Mobile Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugs of Interest to the Ubuntu Mobile Team
<NCommander> We've already discussed the VNC one
<NCommander> [topic] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 337809 in linux "APIC error on CPU 0" [Undecided,New]
<NCommander> GrueMaster, can you still reproduce this bug on lpia?
<GrueMaster> Yes.
 * NCommander kicks LP hard
<GrueMaster> Although we are supposed to get new boards soon.
<GrueMaster> Oddly, it does not happen with moblin1
<NCommander> GrueMaster, on what machine is this bug on? (I'm just not seeing that in the bug now that I'm re-reviewing it)
<ogra> hmm, i saw the same bug today in #ltsp with a via C3 based CPU and -genric
<GrueMaster> CrownBeach.  I also remember seeing it on some test systems when I was at Intel.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, and it doesn't happen with a i386 kernel?
<GrueMaster> It goes away with acpi=ht on the kernel commandline.
<GrueMaster> I haven't tested i386 recently.
<StevenK> I didn't think those CPUs supported hyperthreading?
 * GrueMaster fires up CB with UNR.
<NCommander> StevenK, its probably something unrelated that prevents the bug from triggering
<GrueMaster> The Crownbeach does.  Mainly for the higher end market segment (that apparently never happened).
<NCommander> The easiest way to see if its a config issue is if an i386 kernel works, rebuild the lpia kernel w/ the same config file, and see if its either the compiler flags, or something stranger
<GrueMaster> I seem to remember a patch to fix this when I was at Intel.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, its probably something we want to try an isolate
<GrueMaster> I'll add it to my todo list.
<StevenK> The lpia config ought to be fairly identical
<NCommander> GrueMaster, I don't mind working to debug this with you since things have quieted down somewhat
<NCommander> StevenK, you'd think that :-/
<NCommander> StevenK, its not.
<StevenK> Remind me to kick Tim
<NCommander> StevenK, its part of what broke the alternate CDs for so long.
 * ogra thought the same at least for jaunty
<StevenK> Or parade killing lpia some more
<NCommander> StevenK, sadly enough, Kubuntu is actually promoting lpia usage on Atom based machines -_-;;;;
<NCommander> StevenK, and I can now see users on popcon due to people installing with the alternate
 * ogra points StevenK to http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19409/
<ogra> have fun in karmic :P
 * NCommander can hear the OW from here :-/
<NCommander> Indicently, can we make MID not be lpia specific anymore?
<NCommander> [action] GrueMaster and NCommander to debug #337809
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster and NCommander to debug #337809
<NCommander> [action] StevenK to follow up with Tim on lpia kernel configuration
<MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to follow up with Tim on lpia kernel configuration
<persia> Um, MID *isn't* lpia-specific.  You fixed that at the beginning of Jaunty.
<NCommander> persia, rephrase, build images that aren't MID-lpia :-P
<persia> cdimage just doesn's host any non-lpia images.
<NCommander> persia, well, if we still want MID, we probably should make it non-lpia specific
 * GrueMaster can't get usb ports to respond at the moment on his CB.  sigh.
<persia> Again, it's *not* specific.  It's just which images are hosted.  One can build MID images for sparc, if one can get a sparc MID.
<ogra> do we need to have that discuaaion now ?
<NCommander> no
<ogra> *discussion
<ogra> right
<NCommander> Lets move on
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review for UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review for UDS
<NCommander> Anyone have any specifications we should discuss now before UDS?
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/KarmicSpecifications
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/KarmicSpecifications
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/KarmicSpecifications
<ogra> davidm asked NCommander and me to take a look at brainstorm for possible additional specs
<ogra> i added the "Things spotted on brainstorm that might be of interest" section on the above page
<ogra> though i dont think there is actually anything thats really intresting i tried to pick out what could remotely be of any interest
<NCommander> personally, I'm amazed there is community interest in a UNR lpia image
<StevenK> There's a spec on that already
<NCommander> StevenK, the link is broken, or Launchpad is
<davidm> We can use some more, most of the items you found ogra are more for I suspect foundations team :-/
<ogra> yes
<ogra> there is not much more
<StevenK> unr-karmic-other-arches, whatever davidm renamed it too
<NCommander> There aren't a huge amount of ones beside the ones ogra found that I would add.
<ogra> these were the highest quality items i could find
<ogra> and i went through all 36 pages
<davidm> Ouch, oh well
<davidm> Wow, thanks, I did not realize you had hit them all
<NCommander> anyone have any specs we want to discuss?
<NCommander> Going once
<NCommander> Going twice
<persia> Different question: does anyone have any specs that *aren't* listed on KarmicSpecifications?
<NCommander> BTW, sidenote: most of the links fromt he KarmicSpecifications page are broken due to the specs being renamed
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> [topic] New Ubuntu Mobile' Memberships
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Ubuntu Mobile' Memberships
<NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster
<MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster
<cody-somerville> -1
<cody-somerville> :P
<NCommander> GrueMaster, why don't you introduce yourself briefly, and provide us a link to your wiki page
<StevenK> cody-somerville: You're no member, fail
<NCommander> GrueMaster, ping?
<GrueMaster> Well, I have been working with Linux since ~1995, with my first kernel patch accepted in 1999.  I did most of my Linux development work while at Intel.
<GrueMaster> I type a little slower than most, so bear with me.
<GrueMaster> Most recently, I have been active with Alsa development for HD Audio driver support and testing Linux on MID and Mobile systems.
<GrueMaster> Most of my background is in testing and debugging issues.  I have done some automation development work in the past as well.
<GrueMaster> I have been working with ubuntu-mobile since August 2007 while on contract at Intel (finished in Sept, 2008), and am now working with Canonical on testing Ubuntu on various mobile platforms.
<GrueMaster> Not much more to add.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, link to your wiki page?
<GrueMaster> Oh, vote for me and I'll share my beer brewing recipies with you at UDS.
<GrueMaster> Will post a wiki later today.
<GrueMaster> (wasn't previously informed that I needed one).
<plars> I don't recall seeing anything about that on the membership information on the mobile page
<plars> probably should be added
<NCommander> If there are no objections, I'd like to start the vote for GrueMaster
<NCommander> Ok then
<NCommander> [VOTE] Accept GrueMaster into members
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Accept GrueMaster into members.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<NCommander> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<StevenK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<davidm> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from davidm. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<ogra> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<GrueMaster> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from GrueMaster. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<persia> +1 from me: long overdue, given several cycles of testing and bug work.
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<ogra> haha
 * NCommander will give the vote another minute before closing
<cody-somerville> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from cody-somerville. 6 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<ogra> everyone who is alloed to vote did vote, why another minute ?
<ogra> ah, for cody
<NCommander> cody-somerville is a mobile team member?
<cody-somerville> muhahaha
<ogra> xubuntu conspiracy
<NCommander> Anyway
<NCommander> ogra, uh, what conspiracy?
<NCommander> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<NCommander> The vote passes.
<persia> Err, no.  Cody isn't in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+members
<NCommander> [action] davidm to add GrueMaster to ~ubuntu-mobile
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to add GrueMaster to ~ubuntu-mobile
<NCommander> And for our second new member
<NCommander> [topic] plars
<MootBot> New Topic:  plars
<NCommander> plars, care to introduce yourself and provide a link to your wikipage (if you have one)
<plars> I'm kind of in the same boat on the wiki page
<plars> I'll update it later today, probably pretty much with what I'm saying here
<plars> I've been using Linux since about 93
<plars> didn't really get involved in participating more than that until about 2000 though when I started in LTC at IBM
<davidm> NCommander, GrueMaster added
<NCommander> davidm, thanks
<plars> I did primarily test stuff there, heavy focus on kernel testing, LTP Maintainership (actually, kinda kicked off the migration to sourceforge and making it a more widely participated in project)
<plars> I've also worked on some other things, like xen, and linux clusters (including one that was around #26 on the top 500 for a while :)
<plars> In the past month or so that I've been working on ubuntu mobile activities
<plars> I've been doing daily snapshot testing of mid, unr and arm builds
<plars> writing testplans for iso tracker testing
<plars> conducting tests of iso images and reporting results
<plars> I've also written some tests and contributed to the checkbox and ubuntu-desktop-testing projects, starting to try to get more involved in those
<plars> bug triaging, testing fixes, helping with things like the bisection we did a while back for gnome-keyring-daemon
<plars> I try to help out wherever I can, and learn as much as possible in the process :)
<NCommander> [vote] Accept plars into Ubuntu Mobile membership?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Accept plars into Ubuntu Mobile membership?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<NCommander> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ogra> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<davidm> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from davidm. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<GrueMaster> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from GrueMaster. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<StevenK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<persia> -1 : I'd like to see at least 2 or 3 months of contributions before granting membership in the group.
<MootBot> -1 received from persia. 5 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
 * plars promises to try to stick around a few more months :)
<cody-somerville> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from cody-somerville. 5 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cody-somerville> -1
<cody-somerville> doh
<NCommander> lol
<cody-somerville> cheating isn't allowed :(
 * cody-somerville probably shouldn't be fooling around with your votes :P
<persia> cody-somerville, Indeed (unless you want to join the team).
 * StevenK kicks cody-somerville in the -1
<cody-somerville> Do I get some ARM hardware if I do?
<persia> cody-somerville, Erm, no, but you get commit rights to the bzr branches.
<NCommander> persia, and bragging rights for your LP page
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> cody-somerville,
 * ogra will happily send cody-somerville his nslu2 ... but you need to make all the install tests 
 * NCommander will also send his :-)
<NCommander> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<ogra> cody-somerville, want it ?
<NCommander> The motion to accept plars into membership has passed
<NCommander> [action] plars to be added to ~ubuntu-mobile
<MootBot> ACTION received:  plars to be added to ~ubuntu-mobile
<ogra> cody-somerville, i'm serious
<NCommander> cody-somerville, I can probably dig up some ARM hardware as well you can have
<GrueMaster> plars: you should have voted for yourself.  If Obama can vote for himself, we can.  :D
<ogra> NCommander, dare you, only nslu2'S
<NCommander> ogra, dare me what?
<NCommander> [topic] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<davidm> NCommander, plars added
<plars> GrueMaster: I wasn't a member yet :)
<NCommander> plars, that didn't stop cody-somerville from voting :-P
<ogra> NCommander, dare you to send him anything else but a slug :) he will think about asking for ARM hw next time ;)
<GrueMaster> And Obama wasn't president in November.  What's your point?
<persia> Um, can we get back on track?
<ogra> there is a track ?
<ogra> i thought we're in AOB
<davidm> NCommander, what is the next item on the agenda???
<StevenK> He was at least an American citizen. You're saying that a Brazilian national could have voted in the November election.
<NCommander> davidm, that was pretty much it, I left membership until last
<cody-somerville> NCommander, ogra: Sure :)
<ScottK> StevenK: If they lived in Chicago, probably.
<NCommander> davidm, I'm planning to have a session after UDS to build our new roadmap; its semi-pointless to do it now IMHO
<persia> Plus we're out of time.
<ogra> over time actually
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:01.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-05-02
<saketh> hello
<saketh> the documentation team meeting is in 30 minutes rite?
<cody-somerville> saketh, in 10 now
<saketh> huh?
<saketh> oh
<saketh> yeah
<saketh> thanx
<mdke> ok, this is the Documentation Team meeting
<saketh> yup yup
<mdke> it's going to be a lot of stuff to cover, so we're going to have a make an effort to keep the discussion nice and focused
<saketh> yeah
<technomensch> before we being, for the record of the IRC chat, can you repost the link to the agenda
<mdke> sure
<mdke> I think we should use the MootBot to help facilitate that, and to collect meeting notes
<saketh> huh?
<saketh> ok
<mdke> anyone object?
<technomensch> second
<saketh> no objection
<saketh> how use moobot?
<pace_t_zulu> second, no objection
<mdke> saketh: don't worry, I'll explain
<saketh> ok
<saketh> tahnx
<pace_t_zulu> is MooBot documented? haha
<mdke> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:03. The chair is mdke.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<saketh> ok...
<saketh> now...
<saketh> how use?
<mdke> so, I'll try and handle the topics and people can just discuss them normally
<saketh> ok
<saketh> got it
<mdke> if someone wants to formally record an idea for the notes, please preface the statement with [IDEA]
<saketh> ok
<mdke> the meeting agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<saketh> ok
<mdke> Phil Bull may not be able to attend - he sends his apologies but he has been caught without irc access
<saketh> ok
<mdke> [TOPIC] Introduction of team members
<MootBot> New Topic:  Introduction of team members
<saketh> i gotta go do a chore for mom real quick
<saketh> brb
<mdke> let's find out who's here :)
<KelvinGardiner> I'm here.
<DougieRichardson> Evening
<mdke> I'm Matthew East, I tend to take care of the administrative side of the team's activities, such as uploading packages, translations and the website
<saketh> ok i m bak
<mdke> the wiki agenda calls for a brief introduction of what people do and their interests, so shoot :)
<cody-somerville> Hi, I'm Cody Somerville. I'm the Xubuntu Project Lead and also a member of the doc commit group.
<pace_t_zulu> John Haitas, new member to the ubuntu-doc mailing list. Aspiring member to the Documentation Team.
<DougieRichardson> I'm Dougie Richardson, I predominantly work with Internet and Networking and a member of the commit group
<saketh> I m saketh kasibatla the only person in here who is still in high school
<saketh> btw i m new
<KelvinGardiner> I'm Kelvin Gardiner I'm new to the team and looking to help with the 9.10 install guide and new to Ubuntu docs
<saketh> btw i wanna help with xubuntu docs
<technomensch> I"m Marc Kaplan and I'm on the Wiki Team, of which the levels were on I think for discussion later in the meeting....One of my central focuses is streamlining, organizing, updating/removing outdated info
<pace_t_zulu> I would like to contribute to areas in particular need of attention. I have bee working on WebKit, Chromium, MATLAB, Programming, and VMware
<mmatis> Hi Everyone. My name is Mike Matis. I run the IT Dept. of a very small college on the east coast of the US (Maine). I've used Ubuntu since Edgy. Started out with Mandrake, then Slackware in 2000. I joined to help with the new ubiquity help files - specifically the partitioner.
<pace_t_zulu> I have been using ubuntu since 2006 (Dapper)
<mdke> mfitzhugh: just doing some brief introductions at the moment
<saketh> ok i gotta go do more chores again...
<saketh> srry
<technomensch> saketh, afk or brb would be sufficient
<mdke> ok, let's move on to the first agenda item
<mfitzhugh> Hi - i'm new to ubuntu, but am finding it a great way to combine interests in writing and tech.
<mdke> [TOPIC] Decide about placement of documentation branches within Launchpad
<MootBot> New Topic:  Decide about placement of documentation branches within Launchpad
<mdke> I prepared a summary of this issue here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-April/012733.html
<saketh> ok
<saketh> ok
<saketh> srry
<technomensch> let's take a moment to review the link before proceeding....for those who have not had a chance to do so yet....if there are no objections...
<mdke> yes, certainly
<DougieRichardson> Has anyone got any strong feelings one way or the other?
<saketh> i think that its pretty good rite now
<saketh> as it is
<technomensch> I'm a fan of keeping like materials together
<mdke> I have a slight preference for the single project scheme, for the reason I've expressed on the mailing list
<saketh>  but it took a while for me to figure out how to get the doc source...
<saketh> but maybe thats just me
<mdke> saketh: yes, you joined at a time where we have inconsistent placement of our docs; that's what we're working on at the moment
<saketh> ok
<DougieRichardson> Of the "pros" I don't see any significant advantage other than the second point
<saketh> sorry to be a pain
<technomensch> this is not a discussion to differencite the docs of the different flavors, just the packages within the flavors, correct?
<saketh> yup
<mdke> technomensch: it's about where we store the documents of different flavours on Launchpad
<KelvinGardiner> How useful will point 2 of the Pros be?
<saketh> afk
<mfitzhugh> There is something to be said for simplicity, but good docs could make that a less important point.
<DougieRichardson> Of the "cons" I don't agree with the divergence issue so that only leaves an increase in house keeping
<mfitzhugh> Good "getting started" with the docs team I meant
<pace_t_zulu> I am not going to weigh in either way. I am too new to do so in an informed manner.
<mdke> mfitzhugh: yes, the main problem is the lack of consistency at the moment, I'm sure that we can properly document either approach, as long as we pick one
<mdke> it's essential that we pick one, IMO
<mdke> cody-somerville: any thoughts on the summary I posted?
<cody-somerville> I certainly have some comments on the topic
<cody-somerville> I apologize for not being able to articulate a reply yet
<cody-somerville> I've been very busy with the recent release as well as with work.
<cody-somerville> However, IIRC, you said that you're open to the idea of trying the project group approach?
<cody-somerville> If thats the case, I'd very happy to help facilitate that.
<technomensch> no worries cody, even after all this time, i'm still trying to wrap my head around how launchpad works because I haven't had the time to sit and read through our documentation....
<mmatis> Could someone provide some background as to why the current arrangement is a problem?
<saketh> same here
<cody-somerville> Depends on what we consider the "current arrangement"
<technomensch> matt, for those new, a quick launchpad lesson might be in order
<saketh> gracias
<mdke> technomensch: did you read the first bit of my post on the mailing list?
<mdke> 4th and 5th paragraphs
<technomensch> yes....I have it open in a window next to this chat session
<mdke> does that not help?
<pace_t_zulu> does the current method have some sort of Version Control System?
<mdke> cody-somerville: do you happen to know whether Launchpad will support branches on packages any time soon?
<cody-somerville> mdke, Its definitely in the work
<mdke> presumably it's essential for the plans to host all Ubuntu source in bzr
<cody-somerville> It is
<mdke> any idea of timescale?
<cody-somerville> Difficult to say when it comes to launchpad
<cody-somerville> Priorities get shifted frequently
<saketh> so what u wanna decide about is to keep seperate projects for say ubuntu and kubuntu docs
<saketh> vs
<saketh> one project with different branches...
<saketh> rite?
<mdke> yes
<cody-somerville> Its a little bit more complicated than that
<saketh> ok
<cody-somerville> But thats the basic premise
<saketh> mhm
<saketh> afk
<technomensch> I happen to disagree with that concept, but I can see why we would need to wait for branches to be available
<mdke> cody-somerville: I've been looking at some group projects recently, and they strike me as rather disorganised - I'm not convinced they would improve the organisation of our branches at all
<mdke> if you look at these pages:
<mdke> https://code.launchpad.net/mozilla
<cody-somerville> The Launchpad paradigm is that each project (previously called product) is related to a distinct codebase
<cody-somerville> All of the features available to projects and all future features resolve around this paradigm
<saketh> mhm
<mdke> and
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/bazaar/+milestones
<mdke> you get the idea that things could get horrendously out of sync
<technomensch> I think that is a grave understatement
<cody-somerville> Those are some very messy examples
<mdke> that's why I chose them
<saketh> so the mozilla part of launchpad is what we want to be like?
<cody-somerville> But lets consider if all those projects were just one project
<cody-somerville> Would the situation be any different?
<cody-somerville> Those views would be the exact same regardless if we're one project or many
<mdke> well, not the milestone page
<mdke> it's messy like that because each project has got out of sync with its releases
<cody-somerville> mdke, We could prevent that by having an agreed set of milestones
<cody-somerville> mdke, Or asking launchpad to allow us to share milestones
<mdke> I don't really buy the "This is how LP intends us to work", because really, LP intends group projects to be for separate projects with no shared code
<mdke> we do share code, and in fact, we should share a lot more than we do
<cody-somerville> I've spoken with the launchpad team
<cody-somerville> It is their opinion IIRC that project groups would be exactly what we're looking for
<saketh> does launchpad allow for webpages like a sourceforge page?
<cody-somerville> No
<cody-somerville> The biggest features that I'm looking to enable flavours to take advantage of are series
<mdke> cody-somerville: it depends on how you define "what we're looking for"
<cody-somerville> Especially so with the Xubuntu docs unable to take advantage of the traditional translation support provided by soyuz+rosetta with the Xubuntu docs being in the universe component.
<technomensch> I still believe that centralizing the code is one step closer to centralizing the flavors, whether anyone see is it or not, and that is something I am in favor of.  I know that's a discussion for another time, but it is something to consider.......cont'd
<cody-somerville> Centralizing the code really has nothing to do with having separate projects
<technomensch> imagine all of the docs together, and each flavor merely referrencing the need for that area.
<cody-somerville> Regardless of how we set this up, all branches will continue to be owned by the same team
<mdke> cody-somerville: what's the reason that you used a different team as the project driver when you set up the xubuntu-docs project?
<cody-somerville> mdke, Let me take a look
<pace_t_zulu> keep in mind that the mozilla project is not an good exemplar on which to base a decision... i don't believe launchpad is the primary base for the mozilla project
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: that project is used primarily for code developed by Ubuntu developers who work on Mozilla products for Ubuntu
<mdke> Mozilla don't use it, you're right
<pace_t_zulu> correct me if i am wrong, but we are talking about making Launchpad the primary base for all Ubuntu documentation activity
<mdke> it already is
<technomensch> we are talking about the docbook code used to make our actual documents,
<mdke> it's just a technical structural point
<technomensch> the ones that come in the help for the distro and are available on help.ubuntu.com
<cody-somerville> mdke, I believe I set it to that team to simply affiliate that team with the project. Since we don't use advantage of bugs for the project, I don't think it affects any permissions or anything of the sort. With the same team being the maintainer, the core doc team retains the same rights and privileges.
 * cody-somerville didn't type that very well.
<technomensch> mdke and cody, can you two possibly back-track and redefine that for the rest of us
<pace_t_zulu> apologies for my comments... like I said before, being new it is hard for me to appreciate the nuances of this discussion
<DougieRichardson> Would setting the driver to the doc team again would alleviate the second con that mdke stated?
<mdke> no, we'd still have to maintain the series separately
<mdke> but it would make me happier :)
<cody-somerville> I have no problem changing that
<mdke> so here's a proposal
<technomensch> is the driver the admin of the group of docs for that particular project?
<cody-somerville> technomensch, no
<DougieRichardson> mdke: then we have a potential for compromise - does xubuntu need this change
<DougieRichardson> cody-somerville: sorry that was meant for you, would this change improve xubuntu's processes
<mdke> [IDEA] we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical
<MootBot> IDEA received:  we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical
<cody-somerville> +1
<cody-somerville> mdke, I think thats a great idea
<technomensch> +1
<cody-somerville> If it doesn't work then by all means lets re-evaluate and change it back if we feel that to be best
<saketh> +1
<DougieRichardson> so how does voting work on MootBot?
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED]
<technomensch> for six months, I'm game to at least see it in action.  I ebleive that all good ideas should at least be given a chance
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<mdke> DougieRichardson: this isn't a vote at the moment, but express your opinion anyway
<DougieRichardson> +1
<mdke> :)
<mdke> [AGREED] we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical
<MootBot> AGREED received:  we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical
<mdke> [ACTION] mdke and cody-somerville to follow up and make the changes in Launchpad
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdke and cody-somerville to follow up and make the changes in Launchpad
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: apologies for misuse of MootBot
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: :)
<saketh> w8 so what is this all about again?
<DougieRichardson> Democracy in action - is almost worth missing a barbeque
<technomensch> to quote jed bartlett "what's next?"
<mdke> we will post the meeting notes to the mailing list first, to see if anyone not present now has any objections
<saketh> ok
<mdke> the next agenda item
<saketh> ok
<mdke> [TOPIC] Clearer identification of tasks - please see the meeting agenda for detailed explanation of this topic
<MootBot> New Topic:  Clearer identification of tasks - please see the meeting agenda for detailed explanation of this topic
<pace_t_zulu> Meeting Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<saketh> so this is about who fixes submitted bugs in the docs and the like rite?
<mdke> thanks pace_t_zulu
<technomensch> Can we please include wiki tasks in this discussion?
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: you're welcome :)
<technomensch> or would that complicate matters?
<mdke> technomensch: yes, let's discuss those too, although different considerations could apply so we'll talk about them shortly
<mdke> the idea comes from the fact that the Tasks page for SystemDocumentation quickly gets out of date
<cody-somerville> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<mdke> and we find it difficult to keep up with it
<mdke> if we use bugs exclusively to manage our tasks, I think that it will be better organised
<cody-somerville> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<saketh> i guess
<DougieRichardson> I propose the use of a tags and an explanatory page on the wiki
<mdke> the bug list is quite disorganised, so we'll need to ...
<saketh> second that
<mdke> what DougieRichardson said :)
<technomensch> I agree that we should use bugs, however, I think that it could get messy on the mailing list.....
<mdke> technomensch: go on
<DougieRichardson> a lot of students ask for suitable bugs to start on so I propose a "low hanging fruit" one
<saketh> for ppl like me...
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: agree a small subset and adhere to them?
<technomensch> if each bug goes to the mailing list, not everyone would need it
<pace_t_zulu> DougieRichardson: second
<mfitzhugh> Taggin makes great sense because you don't have to always update the wiki to add new starter bugs
<saketh> and for more experienced ppl, the tougher bugs
<mdke> I don't think we should outline all the possible bugs tags here and now
<mdke> it will take a bit of time, so I'd suggest that we prepare them and then discuss on the mailing list
<technomensch> I think that if we have bugs, then we might want to consider a doc-bug list
<mdke> technomensch: bugs don't go to the mailing list
<saketh> they dont?
<mdke> no
<saketh> then where do they go?
<saketh> btw i sent a bug fix 4 bug 358447
<mdke> to the people who subscribe to them
<saketh> and it hasnt
<saketh> been commited yet...
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/358447/+text)
<mdke> brb phone
<saketh> ok
<DougieRichardson> saketh: can we stay on topic :-)
<saketh> sorry
<saketh> i m a bit hyper today
<saketh> too much sugar
<technomensch> good to see you sommer
<sommer> hey, sorry for being late
<pace_t_zulu> Hi sommer, my name is John Haitas. I am new here.
<saketh> hi sommer
<saketh> i m saketh
<saketh> kasibatla
<saketh> newbie extrordinaire
<mmatis> DougieRichardson: By tagging, do you essentially mean replacing the text on the tasks page with links to corresponding bugs in launchpad?
<DougieRichardson> mmatis: could do, but at least a clear description of what to look for - so say you wanted a straight forward bug to start on the wiki page would point in the right direction
<mmatis> got it
<saketh> DougieRichardson: so u mean that say i wanted a bug related to xubuntu, id look for a bug tagged xubuntu
<DougieRichardson> saketh: there's already a link for that at the top of the current page
<saketh> ok
<saketh> sorry to be a pain
<KelvinGardiner> Can bugs in LP be marked as "good for new people" as gnome do on their tracker.
<DougieRichardson> saketh: but if you wanted to know where to start out, new to the process then you could click say low hanging fruit and get a list of bugs that are relatively easy
<saketh> oh yeah
<DougieRichardson> kelvingardiner: that's what we're proposing
<saketh> i get that...
<DougieRichardson> we've always used the term "low hanging fruit"
<KelvinGardiner> ok
<cody-somerville> Okay, its been about an hour now. I'd like to suggest we start wrapping up and make plans for another meeting since there is lots to still discuss.
<saketh> ok
<saketh> so... how bout next sunday
<technomensch> next sunday is mothers day in the us
<saketh> oh
<saketh> i dont really pay attention to holidays
<DougieRichardson> next weekend is not good for me either - I've other team meetings
<saketh> even if they happen to be where i live...
<saketh> ok...
<mdke> it's too soon
<saketh> how bout the week after then?
<mdke> I'd like to cover at least another issue this evening if people can
<DougieRichardson> I'd prefer to push on
<technomensch> +1
<saketh> when do u suggest?
<DougieRichardson> I've moved stuff aside for this
<mmatis> As have I
<technomensch> ditto
<saketh> when?
<technomensch> considering how long we've been trying to have this meeting....at least 6-8 months, if not longer, I think an hour isn't enough time
<saketh> ok
<saketh> thenn
<DougieRichardson> i think we have a fair proposal for the point in hand anyway - devise a defined set of tags and apply them
<saketh> i have about 2 hours free after aout 5 hours
<mdke> yes
<pace_t_zulu> DougieRichardson: +1
<mdke> I think we're agreed on that one, lemme do something for the bot
<saketh> +1
<mmatis> DougieRichardson: +1
<DougieRichardson> mdke: may I?
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<mdke> DougieRichardson: it's limited to the person who started the meeting
<technomensch> ::zing:::
<mdke> DougieRichardson: would you be prepared to have a go at the first draft of bug tags to use
<DougieRichardson> mdke: Yes - I'm getting back in my box now ;-)
<mdke> DougieRichardson: it's just a limitation of the bot
<saketh> oh i got an idea
<saketh> instead of tas
<saketh> just rate each bug on a scale of 1 to 5
<saketh> 5 being most difficult
<DougieRichardson> saketh:that's too subjective and all that would happen is people would use 1,3 and 5 IMHO
<saketh> ok...
<pace_t_zulu> saketh: -1
<technomensch> there are already priority to the bugs and we are adding tags on top of them
<pace_t_zulu> DougieRichardson: +1
<mdke> [ACTION] DougieRichardson to draw up list of bug tags to be used for identifying tasks, and to discuss on the list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  DougieRichardson to draw up list of bug tags to be used for identifying tasks, and to discuss on the list
<saketh> just wanted to throw out the idea...
<mdke> DougieRichardson: is that ok?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: yes
<mdke> great
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> [TOPIC] Discussion of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
<mdke> I'd really like to get this item sorted out so that we can clarify the group structure and have a clear picture for new people joining the team
<mdke> do people have any specific thoughts on the page?
<technomensch> did you want to include the ability for submitting fixes in plain text into this discussion?
<technomensch> for the contributors
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: I agree that it is unclear, being one of these "new people"
<saketh> isnt there a group for students also
<mdke> technomensch: ideally I'd like to limit the discussion to the team structure, obviously that point is a good one too but separate
<saketh> or is that gonna be done away with...
<DougieRichardson> Happy with the proposed structure
<mmatis> The  "join the Ubuntu Documentation Contributors team on Launchpad" link is broken
<saketh> ok...
<DougieRichardson> I assume we're essentially replacing the word student with contributer?
<technomensch> @dougie: I would hope so
<mdke> mmatis: it's not created yet - the page is not yet finalised
<mdke> DougieRichardson: that's the idea yes
<KelvinGardiner> I found having different names on LP a bit confusing at first.
<technomensch> I think if we break it up in this fashion, we should not only make a clear distinction of who is at which level....
<technomensch> but also what their specialitiy is
<DougieRichardson> OK then it seems concise to me - the contributers is open and the committers/wiki admin is not
<pace_t_zulu> I have been unable to join the team.
<technomensch> as in, who to go to for what
<DougieRichardson> technomensch:+1
<saketh> how would one do about beconing a commiter from a contributer?
<saketh> technomensch: +1
<DougieRichardson> saketh:that's the next item
<saketh> oops
<technomensch> dougie: thanks
<pace_t_zulu> technomensch: +1
<mdke> saketh: it's explained on the page, I hope - that's the whole point of the page!
<mmatis> technomensch: +1
<mdke> technomensch: could you give an example of what you have in mind? You'd have in mind identifying individuals?
<technomensch> for example, earlier we were talking about cody and xubuntu....then there is sommer and the server guide......, etc....
<technomensch> yes know that is their role as an ubuntu member
<technomensch> but not all new doc team members might not know where to find the data
<mdke> so, contact people for each particular sub-project, basically?
<DougieRichardson> I think that a question directed to the ML will get to the right person
<mdke> I agree with DougieRichardson
<technomensch> might be a good start, that was one of the things I did when I modified /Teams
<mdke> the other potential issue with identifying people in that way on the wiki is that things tend to get out of date quite quickly
<DougieRichardson> I thought you meant that if someone was a Wiki Admin then that identifies them, say on IRC as the one to ask about a wiki issue
<mdke> we have a lot of wiki pages :)
<technomensch> dougie: that too
<saketh> yeah...
<technomensch> dougie: I was getting there
<technomensch> :)
<mdke> so pointing to the Launchpad teams is probably the most easy to maintain solution
<mdke> but I can see the advantage of documenting who is primarily involved in different parts of the project
<saketh> so... different teams for different levels?
<technomensch> mdke, can that be maintained on launchpad as well?
<mdke> technomensch: I can't immediately think of a way to do it
<saketh> i don think so...
<mdke> technomensch: also, I'd personally like to encourage people to mail the list
<mdke> because that way, if sommer doesn't happen to be around for a server guide issue, someone else can answer
<DougieRichardson> given the lack of a maintainable LP solution and the transience of the wiki, I vote to stay with the ML for this aspect of identifying
<technomensch> valid points
<sommer> just an fyi there are other server team members on the doc list as well
<mdke> sommer: sure thing
<technomensch> sorry sommer, it was just an example
<technomensch> we do need to give the other members the credit they deserve though
<mdke> sommer: but you've done the most awesome work with the serverguide recently :)
<technomensch> ::applause:::
<sommer> thanks :)
<mdke> ok, does anyone have any other comments on the page?
<saketh> clap clap clap
<saketh> not really
<saketh> @mdke
<DougieRichardson> no
<saketh> not sommer
<mdke> [AGREED] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization approved, subject to any further comments on the mailing list
<MootBot> AGREED received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization approved, subject to any further comments on the mailing list
<mdke> [ACTION] mdke to implement the page and integrate it with our other wiki docs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdke to implement the page and integrate it with our other wiki docs
<mdke> I think we can take the next items quickly, because they are so obviously a good idea and have already more or less been approved on the mailing list
<technomensch> mdke: I just realized I never finished modifying/cleaning up the wiki formatting/coding pages
<mdke> [TOPIC] Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers
<DougieRichardson> mdke: we've skipped one
<technomensch> mdke, I was working on that originally for wiki contributors
<mdke> DougieRichardson: don't think so?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: entry requirements for contributers
<mdke> DougieRichardson: haven't we just done that? It was part of the Organization page, and is a single item on the agenda
<mdke> DougieRichardson: if you have any comments on that part of the page, go ahead - sorry, I thought you hadn't
<DougieRichardson> we've covered the new structure but not defined the entry requirement
<mdke> that was why I asked if anyone had any other comments on the page
<DougieRichardson> mdke: sorry, I thought they were seperate entrys for some reason
<mdke> feel free to raise anything now, we'll come back to the next topic shortly
<saketh> how to become a commiter?
<saketh> for documentation
<mdke> saketh: have a read of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
<DougieRichardson> I think that we agree significant is wooly and rightly so but we could alleviate members concers by deciding a format for who decides.
<saketh> ok
<saketh> i read
<DougieRichardson> I favour a vote from existing contributers or a panel from that area.
<saketh> mhm
<saketh> i gotta go now...
<technomensch> I don't remember if I ever sent this to the mailing list, but I think if someone is applying to be a contributer....once they are ready....their first few additions should be supervised
<saketh> bb
<mdke> I'd like to be inclusive about this
<mdke> I think everyone in the team should have the right to comment on someone's application
<DougieRichardson> mdke: you mean everyone in the commit group or everyone?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: everyone who has an opinion - it will normally be the people who have reviewed the applicant's work, but I wouldn't want to exclude comments
<technomensch> how do you envision the application process?
<mdke> as is usual in the Ubuntu community, people who have worked more closely with the applicant and are more familiar with our work generally will carry greater weight in terms of their opinion
<mdke> the usual meritocracy spiel
<mdke> technomensch: see the "Joining a team" section on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I'm happy with that but we need to document it clearly
 * mdke nods
<DougieRichardson> so we are open
<mdke> DougieRichardson: the problem with a vote is that it sometimes implies counting numbers
<pace_t_zulu> I'd like to join a team... I am happy to be a Contributor until I have earned the right to be a Commiter
<technomensch> mdke: we can use a wiki page to track votes?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: the scheme I envisaged would be more than a concern that gets raised can be discussed by everyone, and the team then reaches a consensus on that which reflects the general meritocracy principle of the community
<mdke> DougieRichardson: I'm pretty sure we'll generally agree very quickly :)
<mdke> at least about this sort of thing
<technomensch> mdke gets +15 on verbal
<DougieRichardson> mdke: true but we understand the system
<DougieRichardson> we need to make this clear to new members so as not to dishearten them
<pace_t_zulu> mdke, DougieRichardson: is the Contributor team going to exist soon?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: let me make more of an effort to explain it on the page
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: yes
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: thank you
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: we'll rename the -students team
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I'm happy with that
<mdke> DougieRichardson: and then we can review afterwards, and raise any further issues on the ML
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: so if i go ahead and join the -students team I will be a Contributor when the rename is executed?
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: right
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I agree
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: roger... thanks... on it
<mdke> [ACTION] mdke to revise https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization to explain better the process of consensus for joining a team. Once done, the page to be discussed on the list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdke to revise https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization to explain better the process of consensus for joining a team. Once done, the page to be discussed on the list
<mdke> DougieRichardson: cool
<DougieRichardson> right back to before I interrupted, lol
<mdke> I'm glad you did
<mdke> that was a good point
<mdke> [TOPIC] Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers
<mdke> DougieRichardson raised this idea, and has already produced a playbook which has been very successful IMO
<pace_t_zulu> i have successfully joined ubuntu-doc-students
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: welcome :)
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: thank you :)
<mdke> I think the list is agreed that this is a good idea and we should push it forward
<DougieRichardson> mdke: thanks!
<mdke> DougieRichardson: what other playbooks did you have in mind? One for the wiki, right?
<technomensch> mdke: I was halfway through getting the playbook finished for wiki work...I just need to finish the formatting pages I was working on
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I have one for bazaar vut that came out of desktop training last cycle
<mdke> technomensch: ah, rock
<technomensch> remember when I was reworking the pages
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I think wiki is best in someone elses hands
<technomensch> I just kinda got sidetracked
<technomensch> dougie: you mean other than me?
<mdke> technomensch: are you prepared to take responsibility for the first draft wiki playbook?
<technomensch> yes
<mdke> awesome
<DougieRichardson> I'd also quite like to do one for writing new articles too
<mmatis> sorry all, laptop battery died.
<technomensch> dougie and mdke, technically the playbook already exists based on the previous work
<mdke> [ACTION] technomensch to produce a draft playbook for the wiki, following a similar format to the existing one, to be discussed on the list once done
<MootBot> ACTION received:  technomensch to produce a draft playbook for the wiki, following a similar format to the existing one, to be discussed on the list once done
<mdke> technomensch: you have a pdf?
<technomensch> I can make one
<technomensch> when would you like it done by?
<mdke> technomensch: ideally it would be great if you could work using the same format as DougieRichardson's first one (odt) and then we can publish it in the same way
<mdke> technomensch: no deadlines :)
<DougieRichardson> BTW the ODF is still available to maintain consistancy
<mdke> odf, sorry
<technomensch> where is dougie's playbook so I can use it as a reference?
<mdke> grabbing link now
<mdke> actually, I don't see it on https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dougierichardson/+junk/ubuntu-doc-playbook
<mdke> DougieRichardson: can you shoot the link over to ... thanks :)
<DougieRichardson> Haven't migrated it yet
<mdke> we can create a single branch to maintain these, maybe
<technomensch> bookmarked
<pace_t_zulu> [LINK] https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dougierichardson/+junk/ubuntu-doc-playbook
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dougierichardson/+junk/ubuntu-doc-playbook
<mdke> DougieRichardson: how does bzr work for odf files?
<mdke> not bad?
<DougieRichardson> Same as everything else really - it'll version control anything
<DougieRichardson> I even use it to maintain the teams logo
<mdke> cool
<mdke> [AGREED] playbooks are a good idea and should be promoted
<MootBot> AGREED received:  playbooks are a good idea and should be promoted
<mdke> any other comments for the topic?
<DougieRichardson> no, I'm happy - it seems well received so far
<mdke> [TOPIC] #
<mdke> #
<mdke> Promote regular hug days. Much as QA does, we could promote regular sessions where one section of documentation could be worked on in a single day. --DougieRichardson
<MootBot> New Topic:  #
<mdke> damn
<mdke> [TOPIC] Promote regular hug days
<MootBot> New Topic:  Promote regular hug days
<mdke> again this is an idea that has been introduced on the list
<mdke> DougieRichardson: how would you envisage it working? what sort of frequency?
<DougieRichardson> Well, monthly seems sensible - atleast initially until we have a good feel for numbers
<DougieRichardson> I'd like some feedback from those who specialise with the wiki because its most suited to the idea
<mdke> I think it's a great idea in principle. It will probably need someone to maintain it and keep setting up the days, that could be an individual or a small group of people
<mdke> you know, for choosing the days, choosing the subject matter, etc
<mdke> publicising it
<DougieRichardson> I see it a lot like team reports in a way - we can pool ideas and pick them
<DougieRichardson> Promotion is important - I've found the Planet very useful for OpenWeek
<KelvinGardiner> The days could be set as first Monday in the month, for example. So its easy to remember.
<DougieRichardson> I've had three or four posts this week and and average pageview of 500 per day
<DougieRichardson> KelvinGardiner:+1
<technomensch> but dougie, not everyone can post to the planet
<mdke> technomensch: plenty in the team can
<DougieRichardson> That's true so its just one avenue
<mdke> we also have the fridge and such
<technomensch> submissions to the various blogging sites
<DougieRichardson> Let's not forget the forums either
<technomensch> getting it pushed on podcasts
<mdke> yep, forums and mailing lists
<popey> \o/ podcasts :)
<technomensch> twit, buzz out loud, diggnation, techzilla
<DougieRichardson> popey could help with that
<DougieRichardson> damn that was timed popey
<popey> drop us a mail with anything you want pimping podcast@ubuntu-uk.org
<mdke> he must have these things hilighted
<popey> (podcast on hilight)
<DougieRichardson> identi.ca is popular with developers at the moment
<KelvinGardiner> Does the fridge get pushed to ubuntu planet?
<DougieRichardson> KelvinGardiner: yes
<mdke> KelvinGardiner: yes
<mdke> [IDEA] DougieRichardson to draft up a wikipage setting out a strategy plan for doc hug days
<MootBot> IDEA received:  DougieRichardson to draft up a wikipage setting out a strategy plan for doc hug days
<technomensch> as much as I hate it, and won't use it, is there a ubuntu twitter feed?
<mdke> think so
<pace_t_zulu> technomensch: i'm sure it wouldn't be hard to make a twitter feed if there isn't already one
<technomensch> perhaps something similar to an offshoot of the planet
<DougieRichardson> digg _shudder_
<KelvinGardiner> technomensch:  there is an identi.ca ubuntu group. A lot of open week stuff was posted to it.
<DougieRichardson> ubuntu members have got access to that group
<DougieRichardson> along with an LWN subscription \0/
<DougieRichardson> we need to clean up the wiki to do page though
<DougieRichardson> I spoke to connor about this - there are two suggested areas needing work
<technomensch> @dougie: still an ongoing project
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: can you clarify something
<mdke> yes, the wiki task page is a bit of a mess at the moment
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: brb
<technomensch> I was actually going to ask whatever happened to my push to get a hardware database up and running, and get those docs out of the wiki
<technomensch> I know it's off topic, but goes back ot the cleaning up of the wiki
<DougieRichardson> That's an ideal candidate for a hug day
<technomensch> the hardware and drivers are a disaster
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: can you clarify the convert categories to tags entry on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
<mdke> I can clarify that
<technomensch> I didn't make that one
<mdke> the link is wrong
<DougieRichardson> ah that makes sense
<technomensch> fair enough....
<mdke> if only I could find the right one
<technomensch> :)
<DougieRichardson> Because this is another candidate for a hug day
<mdke> I posted it in the open week talk, now where is it
<technomensch> matt, if you could tell me which you're looking for, I could check my logs or bookmarks
<mdke> aha, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo/Tags
<mdke> I'll move that page over to the team wiki, it got missed out when we moved a bunch of wiki pages
<DougieRichardson> would you link it from the tasks page too?
<mdke> yes, definitely
<mdke> the list of tasks for the wiki needs a bit of love
<mdke> it's very out of date
<technomensch> ::nods::
<DougieRichardson> That's really the rationale behind hug days where we can define a problem and get more hands on the pump
 * mdke nods
<technomensch> well dougie, the hardware is not just docsteam hands on deck....
<technomensch> that's a multi-team project
<technomensch> esp with WA
<technomensch> I mean QA
<DougieRichardson> then it mightn't be suitable
<mdke> so DougieRichardson, are you willing to draft a wiki page to run through what you'd see as the process for establishing hug days, all the details, and how we should publicise it, and then raise on the list?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: yes sure
<mdke> I think that's a good next step
<technomensch> not for hug day, but....I dunno something
<DougieRichardson> yes - don't want to go off half cocked on this
<mdke> [AGREED] documentation hug days are a good idea
<MootBot> AGREED received:  documentation hug days are a good idea
<mdke> [ACTION] DougieRichardson to draft a wiki page to run through what you'd see as the process for establishing hug days, all the details, and how we should publicise it, and then raise on the list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  DougieRichardson to draft a wiki page to run through what you'd see as the process for establishing hug days, all the details, and how we should publicise it, and then raise on the list
<technomensch> if we're done with the hug day, before we proceed to the next topic, can we go into the hardware documentation discussion?
<mdke> technomensch: what's the issue?
<technomensch> well, it is a complete and utter mess.  out of date driver links, instructions for older releases
<technomensch> I had been trying
<technomensch> to get all of that out of the wiki and into a database with QA
<DougieRichardson> linky?
<technomensch> but someone dropped the ball....looking for the mailing list thread, please hold.....
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: back to an old topic real quick... who has the authority to change ubuntu-doc-students to ubuntu-doc-contributors ?
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: can we have an ACTION on that before this meeting is adjurned ?? apologies for the caps - MootBot
<technomensch> started with this thread
<technomensch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-September/011587.html
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: it's included in one of the action items already recorded
<technomensch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-October/011802.html
<technomensch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-October/011997.html
<mdke> my thought is that we really need a hardware database for this type on information, it's not suited to a wiki
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: thank you :)
<DougieRichardson> I actually think this is a candidate for a seperate sub site
<mdke> I know there is a team working on the "System Testing" tool that has been quite active this release cycle
<technomensch> mdke: that was the whole disscussion
<mdke> I suggest that it be followed up with them
<technomensch> is there anyone who communicates with that team?
<mdke> technomensch: not really
<technomensch> if I knew who to contact, I'd be happy to follow up...this has been a pet project of mine for a while that nothing has happened
<mdke> yeah, I think i can get the details, hang on
<DougieRichardson> https://edge.launchpad.net/checkbox
<DougieRichardson> Isn't it?
<mdke> right
<mdke> see also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Checkbox
<mdke> Marc Tardiff is down as the package creator in Ubuntu
<DougieRichardson> looks like the QA team drive it
<mdke> right
<mdke> technomensch: does that give you enough to go on?
<technomensch> I think so.  I'll see what I can find out and try to get back to the mailling list later this week
<technomensch> thank you
<mdke> lemme record this for the log quickly
<mdke> [TOPIC] Rationalisation of wiki hardware documentation - currently in a mess
<MootBot> New Topic:  Rationalisation of wiki hardware documentation - currently in a mess
<technomensch> in addition to contacting them, if I write up a post, would one of you be willing to post it to the planet?
<mdke> [ACTION] technomensch to contact QA team / authors of Checkbox to find out whether their hardware information can be produced in a simple way for users to review
<MootBot> ACTION received:  technomensch to contact QA team / authors of Checkbox to find out whether their hardware information can be produced in a simple way for users to review
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: sure
<technomensch> thanks
<mdke> [LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/checkbox
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/checkbox
<mdke> right, how are people doing?
<mdke> I'm flagging a bit, and have an early flight tomorrow am
<technomensch> I'm adding my stuff ot "my tasks" now
<DougieRichardson> ok I'm happy to break off
<DougieRichardson> we've covered a lot and after our chat last night with the learning team I think we're on track with the last item
<mdke> let's arrange a time to reconvene for the next meeting; I think regular meetings are going to be very important for the team so would suggest once a month
<DougieRichardson> +1
<mdke> DougieRichardson: nods
<technomensch> +1
<sommer> +1
<mmatis> +1
<mdke> [ACTION] mdke to post meeting logs, amend agenda and follow up on the mailing list to schedule the next meeting
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdke to post meeting logs, amend agenda and follow up on the mailing list to schedule the next meeting
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<pace_t_zulu> sorry for the delay there... phone
<mdke> ok, let's conclude the meeting and retire to #ubuntu-doc :)
<mdke> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:03.
<mdke> thanks very much everyone for attending
<DougieRichardson> we should do it more often ;-)
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: thanks for leading a well organized meeting
<mdke> DougieRichardson: definitely
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: no worries :)
<technomensch> great jobn
<technomensch> about time.....and very productive
<DougieRichardson> my wife thinks I'm being anti-social so I'll see everyone later
<mmatis> bye all...dinner time!
<sommer> later on
<KelvinGardiner> bye all
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-05-03
<kees> jdstrand, mdeslaur: quick meetin'?
<jdstrand> sure
<jdstrand> o/
<mdeslaur> yep
<jjohansen> \o
<kees> heya jjohansen
<jjohansen> heya
<kees> okay, so, closing intrepid seemed to do nice things to the CVE graph.  ;)  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/open-cves-6mon.png
<kees> I'm on triage this week and will likely be preparing a glibc update with about 4 different minor updates in it.
<mdeslaur> re:graph: cool!
<kees> I've got friday off, and then I'll see you all in person for UDS.
<kees> and I think there is a kernel update pending now; I've done a few CVE reviews now.
<kees> so, hopefully this week, otherwise it'll be after UDS
<kees> s'all from me; jdstrand is up.
<jdstrand> k
<jdstrand> koffice got put aside last week due to release and some other updates
<jdstrand> I plan to work on that, do UDS preparation, start some SRUs and double check the apparmor profiles are in enforce mode in lucid (prompted by mysql)
<kees> oh, yeah, I've got an Ubuntu Open session to prep for too.
<jdstrand> oh, and I'm on community
 * jdstrand is done
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> so I've got packages in our PPA to test and release, probably tomorrow
<mdeslaur> and will release the community sponsored package also if we can figure out the bug holding it back
<kees> mdeslaur: I worry it something like "oh, we forgot *foo*, since this is the first lucid-security update..."
<kees> *it's
<mdeslaur> kees: yeah, I think it's something like that also
<mdeslaur> anyway, I've opened bug #574552
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 574552 in soyuz ""different contents" error when unembargoing security update" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/574552
<kees> yeah.  kind of worrisome.  that's potentially blocking all security updates, but we won't know until it's too late.  :P
<mdeslaur> and I've got to prepare some stuff for UDS sessions
<jdstrand> well, if it happens with the next update, we can escalate
<mdeslaur> and that's pretty much all for me this week
<kees> cool; sounds good.  jjohansen (or anyone else) any other things to bring up?
<mdeslaur> oh, and I'll also take a look at the opipasswd bug
<mdeslaur> opiepasswd
<kees> rockin' okay, that's a wrap.  :)
<jdstrand> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-05-04
<Claudinux> 'night
<davidm> Morning NCommander
<davidm> ogra, please grab the Freescale call, suggest shutting it down as there is nothing to do at this time
 * GrueMaster yawns
<ogra> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:04. The chair is ogra.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra> heya
<dmart> hi
<ian_brasil> hi
<ogra> seems the agenda isnt properly filled and i have no idea what the action items from last week were
 * ogra sighs
<dmart> I wasn't here last weeek
<davidm> Were there any?  It was release week
<ogra> there was "fill out the arm release notes" for asac and me
<ogra> (i'm still waiting for NCommander to add the dove install instructions, the rest is done)
<ogra> i dont remember what else
<ogra> i know there were a bunch
<NCommander> sorry for being tardy
<ogra> ok, there was: NCommander, plars, ogra to test firefox on new image
<ogra> looked fine, i tested it right away
<plars> as did I
<NCommander> no unexpected scrollbarsin sight
<plars> stuff like google maps, yahoo, etc looked normal again
<ogra> and there was "asac and ogra to flesh out release notes"
<ogra> which was done modulo the dove install instructions <- NCommander please add
<NCommander> ogra: add an action item for me on that (I'm currently updating the karmic ones)
<ogra> and there was a carry over for dyfet to add a check for v6->v7 upgrades to update-manager
<ogra> NCommander, just copy paste and remove mentioning of karmic ... if you really do it after the meeting we dont need an extra action imho
<NCommander> ogra: I need to update the bootloader section
<ogra> dyfet, has an SRU patch been created for mvo to inspect for u-m ?
<ogra> [action] NCommander to add a link for dove install notes to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/LucidReleaseNotes
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to add a link for dove install notes to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/LucidReleaseNotes
<ogra> hmm, no dyfet
<ogra> so i suspect thats a c/o
<ogra> [action] dyfet to fix update-manager sanity checks for ARM upgrades in an SRU
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dyfet to fix update-manager sanity checks for ARM upgrades in an SRU
<ogra> ok
<ogra> moving on
<ogra> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<ogra> i guess we dont need to look at the workitem tracker atm
<persia> There's a new one, but it's mostly empty :)
<NCommander> Mostly just need to get specs for UDS up and improved
<ogra> neither on any of the other items in that section or do we ?
<ogra> so did everyone who has poposed spec for UDS talk to lool  ?
<ogra> to get them approved and scheduled ?
<ogra> (iirc lool is supposed to approve/decline unless that changed, though nobody told us yet)
<asac> feel free to talk to me ;)
<asac> NCommander: please submit your spec against ubuntu-arm project
<ogra> [action] everyone with UDS specs planned, talk to asac for approval/declination
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone with UDS specs planned, talk to asac for approval/declination
<asac> or keep it where it is ... hjowever, i think its best to file it against ubuntu-arm as in that way we will track it
<NCommander> asac: huh?
<ogra> [action] everyone with UDS specs planned please submit your specs against ubuntu-arm project
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone with UDS specs planned please submit your specs against ubuntu-arm project
<ogra> anything else we need to discuss on the standing items ?
<persia> I think all the specs for Ubuntu ought be done against ubuntu.  It's a huge pain to move stuff against projects to be against distros (we encountered this previously when fussing with ubuntu-mobile project, and that is part of why we gave up the ubuntu-mobile LP project)
<persia> No maverick images available yet :)
<ogra> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+specs disagrees :)
 * NCommander has everything submitted against ubuntu with davidm as the approver. If we're going to chang ehow we're filing blueprints, that should have been annoyanvced ages ago
<asac> NCommander: it was announced
<ogra> NCommander, it was announced about four to six weeks ago
<asac> multiple times
<ogra> right
 * NCommander sighs
<ogra> not the ubuntu-arm project but that lool should be approver for all specs at least
<persia> ogra: How does that disagree?  Looks like someone else is trying to experiment with a separate project again and will have the same pain later.
<asac> mobile team has no own track ... so if its arm related it should be ubuntu-on-arm
<davidm> all blueprints are approved by lool
<ogra> davidm, it was delegated to asac
<davidm> NCommander, I am not involved this cycle
<ogra> [link] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+specs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+specs
<ogra> so lets move on unless someone else has anything for the spec topic
<asac> thanks ogra
 * ogra skips up to image status
<ogra> [topic] ARM Image Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status
<ogra> i saw that NCommander asked that imx51 and dove images get disabled
<ogra> which apparently happened
<ogra> (thanks cjwatson )
<ogra> since both wont have supported kernels in ubuntu for maverick
<ogra> (yet)
<NCommander> ogra: can you action item me to post a bzr branch to also drop imx51/dove there (the netboot images are still being generated)
<ogra> omap and versatile images will persist for now
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> drop imx51/dove in d-i
<ogra> yes
<persia> NCommander: Don't drop it: just leave it unused.
<NCommander> persia: ?
<ogra> [action] NCommander to take care for disabling (not dropping) netboot builds in d-i
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to take care for disabling (not dropping) netboot builds in d-i
<ogra> hrm
<ogra> [action] NCommander to take care for disabling (not dropping) netboot builds of imx51/dove in d-i
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to take care for disabling (not dropping) netboot builds of imx51/dove in d-i
<ogra> thats better :)
<ogra> we want to keep omap and versatile :)
<ogra> anything else on images ?
<NCommander> 10.04 was aweseom?
<NCommander> *awesome
<ogra> agreed :)
<NCommander> I think we're good on images
<ogra> ok, moving ong
<ogra> *on :)
<ogra> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<ogra> any having anything ?
<NCommander> thank you ogra for taking over
<NCommander> and also
<NCommander> Pepole, please post your ARs! (I'm not perfect on this either, but we really should have them all the wiki)
<ogra> well
<ogra> its probably good to mention that we should take a look on universe FTBFS in maverick now that main is mostly sorted
<ogra> i dont expect massive fallout in main this cycle ... no huge toolchain changes like we had the last releases or anything similar will occur ...
<ogra> so we should try to get more motus intrested and work with them to fix all the ftbfs mess
<ogra> thats all i had to say for AOB ...
<ogra> anyone else ?
<ogra> doesnt look like ...
<ogra> how about we adjourn then ? :)
<ogra> going once ...
<ogra> going twice ...
<ogra> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:28.
<ogra> boo
<ogra> grr, sorry ... worst time for a disconnect
<ogra> did i miss anything ? (can somebody paste in a PM if i did)
<ogra> so what i said in AOB without noticing i was off ...
<ogra> its probably good to mention that we should take a look on universe FTBFS in maverick now that main is mostly sorted
<NCommander> ogra: no, everything posted through
<ogra> i dont expect massive fallout in main this cycle ... no huge toolchain changes like we had the last releases or anything similar will occur ...
<ogra> so we should try to get more motus intrested and work with them to fix all the ftbfs mess
<NCommander> you even closed out the meeting
<ogra> oh :)
<ogra> i did ?
<ogra> #endmeeting
<ogra> right ... i didnt get any feedback :P
<persia> You did.
<ogra> great, enjoy your day then :)
<pitti> hello everyone
<pitti> TB meeting time
<pitti> cjwatson, sabdfl, kees, mdz, Keybuk: ping
<cjwatson> hi
<sabdfl> hello
<pitti> hey Colin, how are you?
<pitti> our famous leader
 * pitti sees Scott getting into his boots very fast
<pitti> mdz said he'd be here a little late
<cjwatson> semi-recovered
<cjwatson> but only semi.  Looking forward to dozing on the train tomorrow ;-)
<pitti> heh, have a good rest!
<sabdfl> sunsets should be great from the train, what with all the *ash* in the air ;-)
<pitti> cjwatson: would you mind SMSing Scott? I'll SMS Kees
<cjwatson> sure
<pitti> ok, let's start for now
<pitti> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:07. The chair is pitti.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<kees> hello, sorry i'm late
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<pitti> hey kees
<pitti> [TOPIC] Review of previous actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of previous actions
<pitti> ScottK and Riddell to finalize draft, get agreement with KDE on point release criteria
<pitti> ScottK, Riddell: ^ any update, or push forward?
<pitti> cjwatson to write up 2010-03-09 meeting minutes
<pitti> cjwatson: I guess we'll push that? :-)
<Riddell> pitti: started reviewing yesterday, will get it sorted this week
<pitti> cjwatson to drive libfaac issue to conclusion
<pitti> cjwatson: I think that happened, right?
<cjwatson> not done yet, got eaten by release and I decided that it wasn't RC
<pitti> Riddell: ooh, thanks!
<pitti> [ACTION] ScottK and Riddell to finalize draft, get agreement with KDE on point release criteria
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK and Riddell to finalize draft, get agreement with KDE on point release criteria
<cjwatson> as in, nothing in the archive actually performed the problematic link
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, so it's actually a non-issue completely?
<pitti> (I thought last time we resolved to that it's not something we need to deal with?)
<cjwatson> I still want to look at it
<cjwatson> Keybuk texted back to say he's on leave today
<pitti> ok
<pitti> [ACTION] cjwatson to drive libfaac issue to conclusion
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to drive libfaac issue to conclusion
<pitti> cjwatson: thanks
<pitti> [TOPIC] Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<MootBot> New Topic:  Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<pitti> not sure who added that
<pitti> but I had a look today, and found two things, I put them on the agenda now
<pitti> [TOPIC] Request for Kubuntu Unseeded Packages Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Request for Kubuntu Unseeded Packages Team
<pitti> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-March/000155.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-March/000155.html
<pitti> does anyone have an opinion about this? to me this again sounds like DMB matter
<Riddell> I'm not sure how the package list would be defined
<Riddell> cjwatson likely knows the sort of magic for that
<persia> I'd like to see it implemented as a seed (even if not a seed that ends up on a CD), just for ease of tracking.
<kees> feels like dmb. if dmb has questions with it then it would hit TB?
<pitti> I thought in terms of dependencies, as a basis for that list?
<persia> kees: That matches the decision from last week, but it was TB prior to that (including at the time of the mail)
<pitti> ICBW, but I think it needs to be a seed for the LP magic to work
<Riddell> so I should talk to DMB and get approval there then find out who can implement it?
<persia> Riddell: DMB can implement: the key bit is getting the list.  I'm happy to help you put that together over the next week.
<pitti> right, I don't think we can define them (technically) as a negative of seeds
<cjwatson> we can define them however we like.  a seed is easiest
<cjwatson> but it's quite programmatic right now ...
<cjwatson> tracing reverse build-dep graphs is a rather painful way to do it though
<cjwatson> happy to sit down with somebody at UDS and try to thrash it out; that might be the easiest way
<Riddell> ok, we can do that
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> [TOPIC] Canonical's patent licenses impact on redistribution
<MootBot> New Topic:  Canonical's patent licenses impact on redistribution
<pitti> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-April/000192.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-April/000192.html
<pitti> This came up on the ML again, and it's again a legal matter
<mdz> pitti: here now
<pitti> I don't feel that I can definitively answer this on my part, but my feeling is that it would be weird for these license to automatically apply for any other derivative
<pitti> hello mdz, how are you?
<cjwatson> I don't have the information necessary to respond to that; unless mdz or sabdfl happen to know, I assume we would have to refer this to Amanda?
<mdz> pitti: I added the "scan the mailing list" topic to remind us to see if anything is outstanding from the list
<pitti> does anyone know more?
<pitti> cjwatson: ok, I can do that
<mdz> I saw that on the mailing list, and I think it should be addressed to Canonical rather than to the TB
<sabdfl> i believe the licenses he's referring are purely in support of OEMs in specific cases
<pitti> sabdfl: that's what I expected, but I'm happy to confirm with Amanda
<mdz> I don't think there's an issue here, but Canonical does need to respond
<pitti> [ACTION] pitti to confirm scope of Canonical's ffmpeg licenses with Amanda and followup
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to confirm scope of Canonical's ffmpeg licenses with Amanda and followup
<pitti> [TOPIC] Maverick: Syncing from testing or unstable?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick: Syncing from testing or unstable?
<pitti> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-April/030594.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-April/030594.html
<pitti> ^ start of thread
<pitti> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-April/030655.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-April/030655.html
<pitti> ^ summary
<pitti> summary-summary: syncing from testing was perceived as a good decision for lucid by the majority of replies
<cjwatson> thanks for the summary, that's helpful
<kees> that was a pretty interesting thread.
<cjwatson> I like the compromise proposal of syncing from unstable as normal, and then from testing for a little longer
<pitti> but the general feeling is that we shouldn't do it all the time to not fall behind too much
<pitti> my personal preference is to switch back to unstable for maverick
<pitti> rationale: (1) Debian is approaching freeze, and (2) we just left the more conservative LTS cycle and need to catch up
<cjwatson> I agree
<pitti> what do you think?
<kees> +1
<pitti> ah, let's do that for formality
<kees> we could maybe consider switching to testing near/at DIF
<pitti> [VOTE] switch back to unstable for Debian->maverick syncing
<MootBot> Please vote on:  switch back to unstable for Debian->maverick syncing.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<kees> (in addition)
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> pitti: is there a decision we need to make today?
<cjwatson> we need to start autosyncing soon, yes
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pitti> mdz: we're about to open teh floodgates for maverick
<pitti> once gcc-4.5 finishes building, I think we're good to go
<cjwatson> and I'd like to switch MoM over appropriately
<pitti> doko said that there's currently no new binutils which we urgently need (or none at all)
<pitti> we need to look at perl maybe
<pitti> sabdfl: do you have an opinion about it, or abstain?
<kees> heh
<sabdfl> gack
 * pitti jumps back a step
<sabdfl> i concur that we should sync from unstable
<sabdfl> and that LTS's deserve different treatment in that regard
<sabdfl> sorry for closing the wrong window. it's those damn tab close icons in the wrong place.
<sabdfl> ;-)
<cjwatson> I can probably sort out perl before I finish up for the day ...
<pitti> yeah, and close buttons on the wrong side, etc.
 * pitti infers a +1 and..
<pitti> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<sabdfl> +1
<pitti> cjwatson: are you okay with doing the switch in MoM? shall I ask the Soyuz guys to switch over sync-source?
<pitti> (or do it myself)
<cjwatson> MoM switch done
<cjwatson> please ask for the Soyuz change, yes
<pitti> will do
<pitti> [ACTION] pitti to get sync-source default back to unstable
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to get sync-source default back to unstable
<pitti> [TOPIC] Check up on community bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs
<pitti> zarro
<pitti> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<pitti> I forgot, do we go by IRC nick or name?
<pitti> IRC nick -> sabdfl, Name -> Keybuk, I think?
<kees> nick
<sabdfl> ack
<kees> at least i thought so
<pitti> right
<pitti> that's it, thanks everybody!
<pitti> [ENDMEETING]
<kees> thanks!
<pitti> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:33.
<zul> morning...er...
<mathiaz> o/
<zul> oh good so im not halicunating
<mathiaz> zul: well - may be there are two of us
<sommer> I'm about :-)
<ttx> I'm here :P
<zul> heh
<ttx> just parallelizing a lot
<ttx> mathiaz: the chair is all yours
<mathiaz> ok - I'll run this one
<mathiaz> smoser: hggdh: Daviey: o^42
<smoser> hiho
<Daviey> \o
<mathiaz> ok - let's get started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:02. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> I'll be the scribe this week
<mathiaz> Today's magnificent agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<zul> whoo
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] # Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  # Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20100428
<mathiaz> # hggdh, zul to get their release note/early SRU bugs known to ttx
<zul> i was going to bring them up at the meeting today
<mathiaz> zul: we'll cover the lucid SRU in the relevant topic later in the meeting
<zul> k
<mathiaz> and release notes are too late
<mathiaz> # ALL to mark DONE or POSTPONED the remaining work items for 10.04 by Thu 29 April EOD
<mathiaz> I hope the final lucid burndown charts looked good ;)
<mathiaz> ttx: ^^?
<mathiaz> # hggdh to outline testing bottlenecks for UEC testing UDS sessions
<ttx> mathiaz: done
<Daviey> i *think* i've achieved my objectives ;)
<zul> boo!~
<mathiaz> hggdh: ^^ have you dumped your ideas in the relevant blueprints for UDS?
<mathiaz> that's all for last week minutes
<mathiaz> jjohansen: hggdh: around?
<mathiaz> nope - ok - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review
<zul> so
<mathiaz> I've updated the wiki page to list lucid nominations
<mathiaz> and remove interpid now  that it's EOL
<mathiaz> dapper, hardy, jaunty nominations are empty
<mathiaz> for karmic: bug 494084
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494084 in image-store-proxy "arch parameter is not passed by the image proxy during image install from store" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494084
<mathiaz> bug 572317
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572317 in image-store-proxy "image-store does not support images without a ramdisk" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/572317
<mathiaz> zul: let's go through the nominations lists first
<mathiaz> zul: and then we'll discuss your list of bugs?
<zul> sure
<mathiaz> smoser: how important are these bugs^^ for karmic?
<smoser> arch bug is not as important as "no-ramdisk" bug
<smoser> but no-ramdisk is required if you want to run (correctly) lucid image store images on karmic uec
<smoser> so the intent was to piggy back the arch change also in an update
<jjohansen> oops, /me slips in
<mathiaz> smoser: ok - I'll accept both bugs for lucid and karmic then
<mathiaz> so for lucid
<mathiaz> there are 5 bugs nominated
<mathiaz> bug 573345
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 573345 in dovecot "dovecot-postfix references cmusieve as a mail plugin" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/573345
<mathiaz> bug 195480
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 195480 in libvirt "libvirt: virsh -c qemu+ssh://host.example.com/session connects to 'system', not session" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/195480
<mathiaz> FYI you can get the LP query from the KnowledgeBase wiki page
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Team%20policy
<mathiaz> ^^ SRU weekly review
<mathiaz> which ones should be accepted for a SRU in lcuid?
<zul> 458637 shouldnt
<zul> its not fixed upstream afaik
<zul> 573345 needs a bit more research
<zul> 562832 was upload but didnt get process for some reason so that should be objected
<mathiaz> bug 573345 seems straight forward
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 573345 in dovecot "dovecot-postfix references cmusieve as a mail plugin" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/573345
<mathiaz> zul: what do you mean by objected?
<zul> mathias: sorry reejcted
<Daviey> 573345 seems a valid sru
<mathiaz> Daviey: right - I've accepted the nomination
<mathiaz> zul: bug 562832 - does this mean that DRBD is currently broken in lucid?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 562832 in drbd8 "module drbd8 update kernel from 2.6.32-16 to 2.6.32-20" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/562832
<zul> mathiaz: if you rebuild it manually no
<mathiaz> zul: oh ok
<mathiaz> zul: so not SRU worth
<mathiaz> I'll decline the bug
<zul> mathiaz: it would be nice to have that fixed though
<mathiaz> zul: right - we're looking at SRU nominations
<mathiaz> zul: declining an SRU doesn't mean it won't be fixed in the development version
<mathiaz> bug 195480
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 195480 in libvirt "libvirt: virsh -c qemu+ssh://host.example.com/session connects to 'system', not session" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/195480
<mathiaz> doesn't seem SRUable for now as still not fixed in maverick
<mathiaz> so declining
<mathiaz> and last bug on the list: bug 512110
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 512110 in krb5 "gssd regression, "Program lacks support for encryption type"" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/512110
<mathiaz> doesn't seem SRUable for now
<mathiaz> and there is a workaround in the bug
<mathiaz> declining
<mathiaz> allright - that's all for the lucid nominations
<mathiaz> I've produced a last-week bug fix list
<mathiaz> http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.2010-05-04.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.2010-05-04.html
<mathiaz> which is of course rather short given it was release week :)
<mathiaz> anything SRU worth on this?
<mathiaz> well - I guess not
<mathiaz> since they've all been fixed in *lucid*
<mathiaz> zul: any other bugs on your SRU plate?
<zul> yep
<zul> these ones are in process
<zul> bug 572262
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572262 in nut "[SRU] libusb_get_report: error sending control message: Operation not permitted" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/572262
<mathiaz> zul: where do you keep track of them?
<zul> bug 567043 573206
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 567043 in php5 "[SRU] [lucid] php5 segfault when calling mysqli_options()" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/567043
<zul> im keeping track of them locally
<zul> and have a script that pulls down all of the bugs that are nominated for a particular release
<mathiaz> zul: great
<zul> in the uds session i want to talk about how to keep better track of them and make it more vissible
<mathiaz> zul: totally
<mathiaz> zul: I'm glad to hear there will be UDS session dedicated to that subject
<mathiaz> anything else to add the SRU front?
<zul> nope
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] UDS Maverick
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Maverick
<mathiaz> so we're planning UDS next week
<mathiaz> I hope all blueprints have been registered
<mathiaz> jiboumans has been working on the schedule
<mathiaz> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/track/cloud_and_server/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/track/cloud_and_server/
<mathiaz> ^^ this is the current *tentative* schedule
<mathiaz> it *will* change
<mathiaz> but you can already get a taste of what we'll discuss and when
<Daviey> it *will* break ;)
<mathiaz> any questions on UDS?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on then
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<mathiaz> any other questions?
<zul> nope
<mathiaz> allrighty then
<mathiaz> let's wrap up
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> given we'll be at UDS next week
<mathiaz> I suggest we cancel next week meeting
<zul> skip it
<Daviey> +1
<mathiaz> we'
<mathiaz> we'll come back in *two* weeks, same place same time?
<mathiaz> we'll come back in *two* weeks, same place same time.
<mathiaz> thanks for attending
<Daviey> thanks mathiaz
<mathiaz> and I'll see some of you next week in Belgium!
<mathiaz> have safe travels
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:35.
<ronnietucker> Hi, is the EMEA meeting taking place?
<voRia> According to the wiki page, it's at 20:00 UTC
<ronnietucker> voRia: thanks, just checking as the UWN gave it as 7 GMT. I'll hang around  :)
<voRia> :)
<Seveas> hi forumsmatthew
<forumsmatthew> hello, Seveas
<Seveas> we all expire in 4 hours, except for jonathan :)
<Seveas> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-emea/+members#active
<forumsmatthew> Then we should hurry. :)
<highvolt1ge> good evening
<Seveas> hi ghvoltage!
<forumsmatthew> hi!
<highvoltage> Seveas: heh, very punny
<Seveas> popey, stgraber, 5 minute warning :-)
<Seveas> argh. Bad Lucid. Stop crashing
<highvoltage> I last rebooted when Lucid was released and had no stability issue whatsoever :)
<Seveas> x keeps hanging
<Seveas> something between X, compiz and the intel driver is at war
<Laibsch> good evening
<Seveas> hello Laibsch
<Seveas> popey, highvoltage, forumsmatthew, stgraber: It is time.
<ivarela> hi to all
<forumsmatthew> ready here
<voRia> hi :)
<Respawner> hello
<forumsmatthew> greetings to all
<highvoltage> greetings again!
<highvoltage> do we have quorum?
<Seveas> if popey and stgraber wake up
<highvoltage> stgraber is kind of on holiday, I'll sms him to see if he's around
<forumsmatthew> let's mention their names again, them being popey and stgraber
<highvoltage> I forgot I had popey's number too. sms'ed him too.
<czajkowski> highvoltage: shame you're not coming to UDS :(
<highvoltage> czajkowski: hey you know it's not my fault!
<czajkowski> I know!
<popey> hi
<popey> sorry
<forumsmatthew> glad to see you!
<Seveas> 4 is quorum
<popey> we ready to rock?
<Seveas> let's begin
<Seveas> ronnietucker, you're up
<ronnietucker> hi!
<Seveas> hi ronnietucker, please introduce yourself to us
<Seveas> ronnietucker?
<ronnietucker> I'm Ronnie the founder, and editor, of Full Circle magazine which has now been running for three years (this month).
<highvoltage> ronnietucker: who else works on the Full Circle team?
<ronnietucker> mrmonday (Robert) and linuxgeekery (Rob K.) have been with me since the beginning in 2007, but there are other behind the scenes people such as proof-readers and contributors
<Seveas> highvoltage, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMagazine/FullIssueIndex -- quite a few people it seems
<ronnietucker> I also liase with the translation teams
<Seveas> ronnietucker, I'm going to vote -1 now as none of these people actually left a recommendation on your wikipage. I think full circle is great but want to get some input from the rest of your team
<ronnietucker> mrmonday should be here if that's any help
<popey> I'm going to +1 because I've seen and read FCM for some time and consider it a worthwhile, consistent and quality contribution to Ubuntu.
<highvoltage> I feel that ronnietucker has made really good contributions, Full Circle magazine is does a great job of spreading knowledge of Ubuntu
<forumsmatthew> I'm going to go -0. I would like some testimonials and comments from people working with you. However, I have seen the product and agree with popey that it is high quality.
<ronnietucker> I've no recommendations on my page, but 30,000 readers each month can't be wrong  :)
<highvoltage> it's a solid 3 years of advocacy, so the sustained part is there, it's also quite a significant contribution he's made
<Seveas> highvoltage, popey, hmm
<ronnietucker> feel free to browse our site for many many comments
<popey> I agree that the wiki page doesnt come up to our usual requirements
<highvoltage> I'm going to go +0, but I'd like ronnietucker to re-apply with an expanded wiki page with more details
<forumsmatthew> I agree it is a sustained and significant contribution, but would like to have some personal comments from individual people who work directly with you.
<Seveas> ronnietucker, the purpose of the wikipage is that *you* prepare it to make it easy for us to give a +1
<highvoltage> ronnietucker: if you could list any other teams you have worked with, or in, that would be great. recommendations are quite important too, if you can get them
<highvoltage> ronnietucker: you're a writer and an editor so preparing a wiki page should be very little work for you ;)
<Seveas> ronnietucker, I'm afraid that the total of votes is exactly 0. I think it should take very little time for you to get some recommendations and expand your wikipage a bit, so please do so and come back next month.
 * mrmonday appears, whaddaya need
<Seveas> "a wild mrmonday appears"
<forumsmatthew> here is an example of a very good page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Joeb454
<popey> testimonials, stat!
<ronnietucker> mrmonday is one of the people who helped found Full Circle
<highvoltage> Seveas: you've been spending too much time on your Apple ][ this week!
<Seveas> mrmonday, please read scrollback and give ronnietucker some credit on his wikipage.
<mrmonday> What kind of a testemonial do you need? I can give one, but how I word it depends on what sort of information you want from me
<mrmonday> ok, sure :)
<Seveas> I'd like to move on
<Laibsch> sorry to jump in
<highvoltage> let's do
<forumsmatthew> move on
<Seveas> voRia, you're up
<Laibsch> May I ask to be next?
<voRia> hello everyone
<voRia> oh sure
<popey> I agree, ronnietucker I'd be happy to help you get your wiki page in order
<voRia> ;)
<Seveas> voRia, please introduce yourself to us
<ronnietucker> popey: thanks, will we do that now?
<voRia> Seveas: consider Laibsch first
<popey> ronnietucker: drop me a mail and we'll sort it
<voRia> it's not a problem for me
<Seveas> ok, Laibsch you're up then :)
<Laibsch> voRia: thanks
<Laibsch> cool
<Laibsch> my name is Rolf Leggewie
<voRia> Laibsch: np
<Laibsch> the reason I'm asking to be next is that it's 5 in the morning and I'd like to go back to zzzZZZzzz
<Laibsch> ;-)
<Seveas> Laibsch, then please quickly introduce yourself :)
<Laibsch> I've been a long-time contributor to Ubuntu, mostly while working on bugs
<Laibsch> Recently (about a year or two) I've done some packaging work as well
<Seveas> do you want to become a MOTU?
<Laibsch> I'm maintaining a couple of pages in Debian because I feel that's the best way to support Ubuntu when it comes to packaging
<Laibsch> I eventually may consider that
<Laibsch> I always thought it's invitiation only
<Seveas> it is definitely not
<Laibsch> I've only recently understood that it is by application
<Laibsch> I sometimes wish I could upload packages (for example those I maintain in Debian)
<highvoltage> going the MOTU route may be a better way to gain membership for you
<Laibsch> I can upload to Debian now that I'm DM
<Seveas> Laibsch, reading your launchpad page I see good amounts of karma on bug work, but as with ronnietucker: while the contribution may be valuable, some recommendations/testimonials from other are really needed to judge the quality of your contribution
<Laibsch> One doesn't preclude the other, I'd say, highvoltage
<forumsmatthew> I'm going to have to agree with Seveas
<Laibsch> Seveas: if that's a requirement maybe that should be made more clear
<Laibsch> stgraber could have said someting about me
<Laibsch> I package pastebinit
<Seveas> Laibsch, that is most definitely made clear on the membership guidelines wikipage
<forumsmatthew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<Laibsch> or persia, but I think he's asleep
<Laibsch> I work mostly on my own
<Laibsch> so I'm not sure there are that many people that regularly come in contact with what I do
<Laibsch> nonetheless my contributions are sustained and of a significant amount which at least I understood to be the main deciding factor
<forumsmatthew> anyone see your packages/bugs? approve them? are there people who can comment on the quality of the help you give?
<forumsmatthew> we can see activity, but only people closely involved can comment effectively on the quality
<Laibsch> I'm sure almost anyone doing sponsoring has at one time or another interacted with what I do
<Seveas> Laibsch, then please ask them to leave a note on your wikipage
<Laibsch> if I were them, I'm not sure I would remember everyone I sponsor every half year or so
<hggdh> FWIW, I can vouch for Laibsch work
<forumsmatthew> especially on the quality of personal interaction and whether or not it reveals the spirit of ubuntu
<Laibsch> thanks, hggdh
<highvoltage> Laibsch's work is certainly good
<Laibsch> that's a relief ;-)
<Seveas> highvoltage, good to know :)
<Laibsch> See, I'm not even sure I interacted with highvoltage
<Seveas> votes please
<Seveas> I'm still at -1
<popey> I'd say go for MOTU as that's most appropriate
<forumsmatthew> I'll give +0 with a desire to see applicants set up their wiki pages according to requested guidelines
<popey> yes, sorry +0
<forumsmatthew> I also echo popey that MOTU might be a better path
<Seveas> /me3
<Seveas> highvoltage, ?
<highvoltage> I'm stuggling to decide between +0 and +1
<highvoltage> +1
<highvoltage> but I also agree with the others and some testimonials would make it easier to give more +1's
<Seveas> highvoltage, do you think it is more appropriate for Laibsch to go the MOTU route when reapplying?
<highvoltage> it would probably be more appropriate, but I have absolutely no objections if he re-applies with us with a more complete wiki page
<Seveas> ok
<Laibsch> to me that comment sounds like "you're overqualified", I don't really understand that.  It's a bit weird to see that as ground for rejection.  Becoming a member does not preclude me from becoming a MOTU later.  Just my 2Â¢
<Seveas> Laibsch, sorry to disappoint you, but you'll have to come back another time
<highvoltage> Laibsch: working with the MOTU team may make it easier to prove work that was done within the team though
<Seveas> Laibsch, it's more that the MOTU can judge your contributions better than we can
<highvoltage> Laibsch: that's definitely not the case
<Laibsch> not sure that's the case
<Seveas> anyway, let's move on
<Seveas> voRia, *now* you're up
<Laibsch> good night
<Laibsch> thanks
<highvoltage> Laibsch: thanks to you too
<voRia> I'm the founder and the mantainer of the 'Linux On My Samsung' project
<Seveas> voRia, what kind of work did you do within the ubuntu teams?
<voRia> the project aims to help users to get a better experience with ubuntu (and other distro too as well) on samsung netbooks/notebooks
<voRia> actually, not that much
<voRia> the project has born as individual
<voRia> not aimed to ubuntu
<Seveas> voRia, ubuntu membership is a recognition of a sustained and significant contribution to Ubuntu
<forumsmatthew> Sadly, I'm again not seeing enough information on the wiki page to evaluate. There are no testimonials from Ubuntu members/teams. There are no details about sustained contributions to Ubuntu.
<forumsmatthew> I'm sorry, I have to -1
<Seveas> all I see is an upstream project, this does not qualify
<Seveas> -1
<highvoltage> voRia: I looked at the LP page for samsung-tools, it looks like a really good project but it seems like you've mostly really been active for a month or so?
<voRia> the fact is, 99% of the work I do is for ubuntu
<voRia> highvoltage: the project has born more than a yer ago
<voRia> i provide fixed packages for ubuntu on the repository since intrepid release
<popey> I'm inclined to agree. This looks like a worthwhile project, especially for those who are owners of these specific Samsung devices, but I'd like to see more contribution directly to Ubuntu.
<popey> -1 from me for now.
<voRia> popey: this what I've applied for
<voRia> I want to integrate my work in ubuntu in a better way
<highvoltage> voRia: your work looks good but your wiki page makes it incredibly hard to judge
<highvoltage> -1 from me too
<Seveas> voRia, Ubuntu membership is not a requirement for that, quite the contrary
<forumsmatthew> perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what membership is and does. It is designed to recognize contribution and participation, not a first step
<forumsmatthew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<Seveas> if you have problems getting your software integrated with ubuntu, please talk to the MOTU
<Seveas> anyway, -4 means we move on again
<Seveas> ivarela, you're up now
<voRia> well ok
<ivarela> hi to all
<Seveas> hi ivarela, please introduce yourself
<highvoltage> voRia: if you need more advice on your wiki page feel free to contact any of us after the meeting
<ivarela> First of all, I want apologize me about my english level
<voRia> highvoltage: ok, thanks
<ivarela> there is little to say about me: I'm a member of softastur, a community who works for free software in asturian language
<ivarela> I heard about Ubuntu 3 years ago, and we started translating it.
<forumsmatthew> wow, look at all that translation work!
<ivarela> We had few resources, and we coordinate and optimize our resources working in softastur.  I am proud to say that a few years ago very few people knew Ubuntu in Asturias, and now this issue has changed.
<Seveas> I'm impressed
<ivarela> forumsmatthew: we are a very little group,
<highvoltage> ivarela: at what kind of institutions do you do your talks and what topics do you cover?
<Seveas> good contributions, well documented, good recommendations and launchpad info
<ivarela> so we must work too much.
<Seveas> +1, you made it easy for me, thanks :)
<forumsmatthew> This is an example of someone doing real and sustained work and documenting it well. He also has good testimonials. The wiki is simple, but effective
<forumsmatthew> easy +1 from me
<highvoltage> I guess I can ask ivarela again after the meeting :)
<highvoltage> +1 from me too
<popey> Yup, great work, great testimonials! +1
<Seveas> +4, excellent
<Seveas> welcome to the dark side, ivarela!
<ivarela> thank you very much
<forumsmatthew> congratulations
<Seveas> Respawner, you're up!
<Respawner> well, hello everyone
<Respawner> I'm Guillaume, a French guy, using Ubuntu since 2006, member of the ubuntu-fr community, writer on the ubuntu-fr planet, doing some translations work, contributor to java-gnome (coordination with Debian and Ubuntu packagers & coding of course)
<Respawner> also writer for GNU/Linux Magazine
<highvoltage> Respawner: just catching up on your blog... I also loved the 80's style Fringe episode ;)
<Respawner> highvoltage: nice isn't it :p
<Respawner> My blog is all french (sorry about that :))
<Seveas> Respawner, where do you say you spend more time: ubuntu-fr or java-gnome?
<Respawner> both actually, I wrote on the planet regularly and spend time on the forum of course, in java-gnome I try to keep the package up to date in a PPA and do some code
<Seveas> Respawner, why aren't there any recommendations/testimonials from other ubuntu-fr members on your wikipage?
<Respawner> my articles in GNU/Linux magazine France are tutorials written for Ubuntu in general
<Respawner> Seveas: I would love to have a testimonial from onkarshinde, but I was not able to catch him
<Respawner> I worked with him for the java-gnome package
<highvoltage> Respawner: it's great that you maintain your ppa so well, why haven't you gotten any of your work into the Ubuntu archives yet?
<Seveas> I'm leaning towards +1 but need a bit more convincing
<Respawner> Seveas: sadly I have no reference from ubuntu-fr (I didn't ask actually)
<Seveas> Respawner, why didn't you ask?
<Respawner> highvoltage: I would love that, that's why I want to adopt java-gnome package in the future
<Respawner> Seveas: I forgot and don't think about it
<Seveas> highvoltage, popey, forumsmatthew: can I have a vote please?
<popey> I'd like to see some more testimonials really
<popey> especially given how huge the french ubuntu community is, can't be that hard :)
<forumsmatthew> I am struggling. Again, I would like more testimonials from people in the Ubuntu world.
<highvoltage> +1, I just want to suggest to Respawner that he gets his packages into revu and into universe
<forumsmatthew> I have to +0 for now
<Seveas> +0 too
<popey> if he's going to go for putting packages in revu/universe then surely MOTU makes more sense?
<Seveas> popey, well, he's doing lots in ubuntu-fr too, so here makes sense too
<highvoltage> popey: if he's specifically interested in MOTU, then yes. if he only cares about his own packages then it might not
<popey> true
<popey> I'm going to say +0, and come back with more testimonials I'm afraid.
<Seveas> Respawner, please get some ubuntu-fr testimonials and come back next month, shouold be a breeze then
<highvoltage> Respawner: either way, please get some comments from people you have worked with and re-apply! Also consider following the MOTU route for membership if you have broader packaging interests.
<Respawner> Seveas: sure, thank you anyway :)
<Seveas> HardDisk, you're up next (and last on the agenda)
<Respawner> highvoltage: I will consider that
<Seveas> idle time 13h, we can assume he's not here
<Seveas> so, almost end of meeting.
<forumsmatthew> Let me then say as we close that it has been a privilege and honor to serve with all of you on the board.
<Seveas> It's been very nice working with you all over the past 2 years!
<popey> thanks forumsmatthew !
<Seveas> or was it one year?
<Seveas> anyway, I enjoyed it!
<forumsmatthew> For me it was two
<popey> will you be at UDS forumsmatthew ?
<forumsmatthew> Yes!
<Seveas> I will not :(
<highvoltage> forumsmatthew: thanks for serving on the board, you've been great!
<popey> excellent, we shall celebrate the good times
<Seveas> Enjoy UDS!
<popey> I shall have some kwak for you Seveas :)
<Seveas> popey, that's a very good idea, but try not to limit yourself to kwak. Belgium has more :)
<popey> :)
<forumsmatthew> I look forward to working with each of you again in the future in other facets of the community.
<Seveas> try at least karmeliet tripel for instance
<highvoltage> ok I'm off, thanks everyone and goodnight!
<czajkowski> highvoltage: nn
<forumsmatthew> bye, everyone!
<Seveas> so, what happens next for the emea board?
<Seveas> who decides who will be on the board in the next 2 years?
<popey> votes are almost all in
<highvoltage> night czajkowski
<popey> cc will announce shortly
<Seveas> k
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, I believe the CC is going to sort through the applications and announce
<popey> should be tomorrow
<Technoviking> Seveas: the CC is almost finished voting
<highvoltage> Seveas: I guess we wait for the CC to choose the new members?
<popey> Seveas: you doing the ~ubuntumembers thing? :)
<Seveas> I shall
<popey> thanks!
<Technoviking> Anyone here for the CC meeting, there is nothing on the agenda
<popey> o/
<cjohnston> im here to watch it
<Technoviking> Anyone got any questions or concerns for the Community Council, many of the member will be at UDS and there will be many community and goverance session during that week
 * mdke arrives late
<cjohnston> finishing the vote ;-)
<Technoviking> hello mdke :)
<mdke> Technoviking: heya :)
<mdke> agenda's looking nice and tidy
<Technoviking> Ok, I guess we will call it, be sure to particpate at UDS remotely if you can not attend next week.
<popey> that was quick
<mdke> ah hey popey
<pleia2> :)
<popey> hullo mdke pleia2
<pleia2> hey popey
<mdke> wow, great turnout
 * highvoltage pops back in for a final scare before going to bed
<Technoviking> ;)
<Technoviking> mdke: we had a quorum:)
<mdke> perhaps we should take some decisions in the absence of any agenda
<Technoviking> mdke: like what?
<mdke> quick show of hands for renaming Ubuntu One?
 * mdke slinks off
<highvoltage> rofl
<highvoltage> mdke: where did everyone go to suddenly!?
<mdke> everyone has their hands up, can't touch the keyboard
<popey> hah
<popey> you subversive little thing
<mdke> that's me
<HardDisk> Seveas
<HardDisk> sorry I was away :( I had to be with my cousin, had a small emergency
<HardDisk> I missed my membership I apologize, but family comes first.
<HardDisk> I suppose I will have to reschedule again if it's too late.
<HardDisk> considering its 1:26am Cairo time
<HardDisk> Hope to get my chance next time.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-05-05
 * fader_ waves.
<ameetp> o/
<pedro_> hola hola
<fader_> marjo is not available so he has asked me to chair the meeting today.
<fader_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is fader_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<fader_> Agenda:
<fader_> * SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<fader_> * Bug Day status -- pvillavi
<fader_> * UDS QA Track - ara
<fader_> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2010-04-28):
<sbeattie> * lucid: 55 new packages in -proposed
<sbeattie>      and 6 packages pushed to -updates (librsvg, linux, migration-assistant, pkg-create-dbgsym, planner, ubiquity)
<sbeattie> * karmic: 5 new packages in -proposed (apt-mirror, etoys, installation-guide, sbuild, tzdata)
<sbeattie>       and 10 packages pushed to -updates (compiz, debian-installer, gnome-games, linux, linux-backports-modules-2.6.31, mythtvfs-fuse, sun-java6, trac-git, tzdata, xfce4-power-manager)
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 2 new packages in -proposed (etoys, tzdata)
<sbeattie>       and 2 packages pushed to -updates (kopete-cryptography, tzdata)
<sbeattie> * intrepid: no longer maintained
<sbeattie> * hardy: 2 new packages in -proposed (nfs-utils, tzdata)
<sbeattie>      and 3 packages pushed to -updates (debian-installer, linux, tzdata)
<sbeattie> * dapper: 1 new package in -proposed (langpack-locales)
<sbeattie>       and 1 package pushed to -updates (langpack-locales)
<sbeattie> Thanks to mhall119, arand, Fabio Marconi (njin), AndrÃ© V, Daniel Muller, Peter Schaefer, Leo Milano, jmrbachiller, Stefan Ebner (sebner), Sel Goona, Moritz Heiber (Moe), YoBoY, Mitch Towner (kermiac), Harald Sitter (apachelogger), Thorsten Reinbold, marmuta, kristoffer, Andy Owen (TheNewAndy) and others for testing SRUs this week.
<sbeattie> Lots of activity, lots of packages landed in lucid that need testing.
<fader_> Yeah, no kidding... much more activity than last week :)
<fader_> Any questions/comments about SRU testing?
<fader_> Okay, thanks sbeattie!
<fader_> [TOPIC]  Bug Day status -- pedro_
<MootBot> New Topic:   Bug Day status -- pedro_
<pedro_> On Thursday 29 we had a bug day based on Bugs without a package: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100429
<pedro_> ~60 bugs were triaged that day
<pedro_> Thanks a lot to our Bug day heroes: dgtombs, kamusin, yofel, vish, micahg, ddecator, sbarjola, ara, mistrynitesh and michl
<pedro_> There's nothing scheduled for tomorrow, we'll come back with more bug days after UDS ;-)
<pedro_> that's all from here fader_ unless there's a question
<fader_> Any questions for pedro_?
<fader_> Thanks, pedro_!
<fader_> [TOPIC] UDS QA Track -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS QA Track -- ara
<fader_> And I don't see ara :)
<fader_> I believe this was a leftover from last week anyway.
<fader_> I will just remind everyone to make sure you've checked the UDS pages and added any topics you feel are missing
 * fader_ goes to grab the link.
<pedro_> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/track/qa/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/track/qa/
<fader_> Heh, thanks pedro_, you're one step ahead of me :)
<fader_> I hope everyone is ready for UDS!
<pedro_> hah, there's a few new sessions compared to last week , looking forward to UDS ;-)
<fader_> Any last-minute UDS-related topics to discuss before next week?
<bladernr> who's participating in UDS-Kilt Day?
<bladernr> ;-)
<fader_> pedro_: Yes, all of us slackers getting our sessions registered at the last minute :)
<fader_> bladernr: o/
<fader_> Everybody bring a kilt :)
<hggdh> er. would a kitty be good?
<fader_> hggdh: Not sure if you can wear one the same way... that might be animal cruelty.
<hggdh> :-)
<fader_> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<fader_> Any other business?
<fader_> Doesn't look like it...
<fader_> Thanks everyone!  See you at UDS!
<fader_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:12.
<pedro_> Thanks!
<schwuk> Thanks fader_
<charlie-tca> quick and painless today
<YoBoY> you're welcome sbeattie
<sbalneav> Boo
<highvoltage> hey sbalneav
<highvoltage> QuickQuickMeeting!â¢
<mhall119> o/
<highvoltage> On the development side it's quick at least,
<mhall119> look look, I'm actually here for one
<bencrisford> mhall119: yay! :)
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> sbalneav has beenfixingfixingbugs and I'll be helping him out witha few packaging questions when we manage to sync up :)
<mhall119> anyone know what time of day UDS sessions will be starting?
<highvoltage> (oops and the laptop I'm on now has a bad spacebad)
<highvoltage> *spacebar
<stgraber> 9am UTC+2
<bencrisford> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/
<mhall119> oh no
<mhall119> :(
<highvoltage> mhall119: yeah not very american-zone friendly :/
<bencrisford> mhall119: and the end just when I get home :/
<stgraber> so that's 3am EDT
<sbalneav> A bad spacebad?!
<sbalneav> sounds.... bad!
<mhall119> logs it is then
<highvoltage> sbalneav: it is!
<bencrisford> mhall119: for me too :(
<mhall119> I might make the last couple sessions
<highvoltage> stgraber has also registered our specifications forthesessions at UDS, schedule will only be available from monday morning onwards
<highvoltage> stgraber: if you could manipulate the schedule so that sessions are rather later than earlier, that would be great :)
<mhall119> highvoltage: I'd imagine everyone will by vying for later sessions
<highvoltage> mhall119: except people from Asia :)
<mhall119> on behalf of their american remote participants
<mhall119> true
<mhall119> but we americans whine more
<highvoltage> mhall119: not that it seems like that will beabig problem for us though
<stgraber> highvoltage: yeah, I'll try to have them in the afternoons
<bencrisford> not just american participants, anyone who cant get IRC at school/work on UTC, UTC+1 is kind of stuffed
<highvoltage> that's basically it for technical, unless there's anything else?
<bencrisford> yes!
<highvoltage> bencrisford: fire away
<bencrisford> not sure it comes under technical actually..  but ive started now ;P
<bencrisford> the other day I was looking around for some software to do revision timetables for me
<bencrisford> and I couldn't find one for linux
<mhall119> what are revision timetables?
<bencrisford> like, if you have alot of exams
<bencrisford> scheduling revision
<mhall119> ok
<highvoltage> hmm, Schooltool is supposed to have quite advanced scheduling capabilities. not that I've tried it yet :)
<mhall119> is this for students or teachers?
<bencrisford> im thinking of starting work on one :), I was wondering if you guys thought it would be a good idea or if there is anything else
<bencrisford> mhall119: hopefully both
<bencrisford> so teachers/schools could use it for lession scheduling
<mhall119> I'd look at schooltool first
<bencrisford> and students for revision
<mhall119> see if it can be extended to do what you need
<bencrisford> ok, I'll do that :)
<sbalneav> I'll be getting involved in: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenLDAP-DIT
<mhall119> otherwise, go for it
<bencrisford> but I thought it could be a pretty cool thing
<highvoltage> yeah, schooltool is probably most likely to be supported by Canonical too at some point since it's also funded by sabdfl
<bencrisford> and it could know when your exams are, and make sure you revise everything
<highvoltage> bencrisford: schooltool didn't make it into 10.04 because of zope dependencies, which are likely to be fixed for 10.10
<mhall119> highvoltage: are the zope issues that it used to have resolved?
<alkisg> Hi all
<bencrisford> !info fet
<ubottu> fet (source: fet): timetable generator. In component universe, is optional. Version 5.11.0-1ubuntu1 (lucid), package size 4963 kB, installed size 22824 kB
<bencrisford> well, I was wrong :P ^
<highvoltage> bencrisford: so if schooltool doesn't quite have that yet it might be a good idea to contribute there. but it's up to you and I'm not 100% sure how complicated it is to contribute. all up to you of course!
<bencrisford> it was just one of the ideas I had rattling about in my head
<bencrisford> most of them turn to nothing :P
<highvoltage> well it's noted now fwiw :)
<mhall119> if there's ever a need for a webapp, and it can be done in Django, I'm all in
<bencrisford> :)
<highvoltage> bencrisford: perhaps if fet looks useful you can do a write-up about it and we can include it anyway
<bencrisford> highvoltage: sounds good, i'll look into it
<highvoltage> righto! let's move on to community
 * bencrisford scribbles "timetable software" on a post-it
<bencrisford> noted :)
<highvoltage> oppl joined in for the classroom session tonight and showed some interest
<mhall119> Tomboy FTW
<highvoltage> oppl: would you like to introduce yourself?
<oppl> sure
<oppl> I'm a computer scientist from Austria working at the University of Linz
<oppl> I'm currently finishing my PhD on how to support cooperative learning processes using tangible tabletop interfaces
<mhall119> like touchscreen tables?
<oppl> so I broadened my scope a bit and got into educational sciences, cognitive sciences and sociology
<oppl> mhall119: yes, basically ... but using tangible elements on the table
<oppl> to represent and mesh concepts basically
<oppl> further work will include to integrate the physically built models back into virtual, distributed learning environments
<highvoltage> oppl: that sounds quite valueble to a project like edubuntu! do you have any free time available to get involved?
<highvoltage> (or share information on your studies?)
<oppl> maybe both
<oppl> as soon as I've finished my PhD :-)
<oppl> that should be the case latest in june
<mhall119> oppl: sounds cool and exciting
<bencrisford> oppl: :D
<oppl> I'm also thinking about involving my students
<highvoltage> oppl: heh, one of our previous contributors had to delay his phd quite a bit due to edubuntu contributions!
<highvoltage> oppl: so finishing your phd first sounds like a good idea :)
<oppl> unfortunately it's already delayed ... there are so many other interesting things
<oppl> but as i said ... maybe I could provide manpower through student's projects
<highvoltage> oppl: feedback from students will be great as we expand a bit more into the tertiary zone, which few of us know a lot about
<oppl> that's what I thought about
<highvoltage> oppl: well, I hope that you'll hang around with us! and welcome to Edubuntu, officially :)
<oppl> we are into teaching process modelling and interactive systems modelling
<oppl> would be interesting to examine, what's available and possible in that are with FOSS
<highvoltage> oppl: I think we might have to have a session one day where you explain all these things! it sounds quite self-explanetory what it is but it would be nice to know how you actually do that!
<oppl> highvoltage: thx
<oppl> highvoltage: sure, I'm at your service :-)
<highvoltage> let's move on to the advocacy project, which also more or less ties in with some of what oppl is talking about
<highvoltage> bencrisford: I told you earlier that my boss (also Ben) is interested in joining
<highvoltage> he joined the LP group but he actually wanted to join a mailing list
<highvoltage> I was wondering whether it would worth while starting a list on LP for that?
<bencrisford> highvoltage: I did think about that...
<highvoltage> Ben sells Edubuntu every day and speaks to many non-technical teachers and educational people who we could get in touch with
<bencrisford> ok, awesome
<bencrisford> I think I might remember accepting him actually
<highvoltage> he'd like to round them up so that could have some semi-formal way of communicating with them and also receive some feedback
<highvoltage> bencrisford: yep, I think he joined it yesterday
<bencrisford> I saw he was in the revolution linux lp team so I accepted him
<bencrisford> I guess that was him
<highvoltage> some of oppl's students may also be interested in that
<highvoltage> yep, it was
<highvoltage> bencrisford: I think once we have a bunch of real life people combined with that list and our new site, we could actually do some cool things
<bencrisford> yeah :D:D
<highvoltage> great, I'll ping you again tomorrow and also put you in touch with Ben
<highvoltage> he's really passionate about this and I think he'll also put some great energy into it
<bencrisford> :D
<highvoltage> great, so we'll follow up on that tomorrow
<bencrisford> sounds good
<highvoltage> anything else for this meeting?
<highvoltage> bencrisford: gongtime
<highvoltage> ok bencrisford seems busy :)
<highvoltage> *GONG*
<highvoltage> quickquickmeetingâ¢ adjourned, thanks everyone!
<bencrisford> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-05-06
<bimo7x> hallo?
<humphreybc> hello all
<humphreybc> Ayatana UX team, assemble?
<thorwil> hola
<vish> o/
<aday> hello hello
<godbyk> Greetings!
<humphreybc> mpt's not here yet
<aysiu> Hey there
<aday> tut tut
<humphreybc> he's in Brussels
<humphreybc> if he doesn't show up in 5 minutes then we'll just start without him, that sound okay?
<humphreybc> ha!
<vish> humphreybc: i think he forgot , just pinged him
<mpt_> :-)
<wers> Hello :)
<humphreybc> now _that_ is what I call timing
<vish> :)
<humphreybc> good work Scotty
<mpt_> I'll deny any accusation of forgetting
<vish> ;)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> okay, shall we begin?
<mpt_> let's
<aday> indeed
<wers> let us :)
<mpt_> So who's here?
<thorwil> !
<aday> i'm not
<humphreybc> bonjour, mpt
<humphreybc> godbyk is also here
<aysiu> aysiu here. My first IRC ever.
<mpt_> Hi aysiu, welcome, and thanks for being up at this hour
<humphreybc> mpt_: are ye going to use mootbot?
<aysiu> 5:00 am here
<wers> aysiu, first ever? wow
<humphreybc> aysiu: oh god!
<mpt_> humphreybc, I don't know how to do that, do you?
<humphreybc> mpt_: sure
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:03. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<humphreybc> mpt_: it makes me the chair though, just tell me what topics you'd like me to set
<mpt_> ok
<mpt_> Unfortunately my Canonical compadres are busy at this design sprint thingy
<humphreybc> Introductions?
<mpt_> yes, introductions
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Introductions!
<MootBot> New Topic:  Introductions!
<humphreybc> aysiu: after you :)
<aysiu> Ubuntu user for five years.
<aysiu> New to IRC, as you all know now.
<aysiu> I live in California and work in a school in the admission office.
<aysiu> And I help out on the Ubuntu Forums occasionally as a moderator.
<humphreybc> aysiu: awesome :)
<mpt_> I invited aysiu to help with communication between designers and users on the forums
<aday> mpt_: cool
<wers> mpt_, that's gonna help a lot
<mpt_> So, for everyone else
<humphreybc> wers: after you!
<mpt_> How about we just compose two or three sentences and post them all at once. That way we don't need to wait for anyone.
<humphreybc> mpt_: that sounds good
<mpt_> Just who you are, where you're from, what your area of interest is.
<wers> I'm Allan Caeg from Philippines. 20. Psych grad. UX Specialist currently at work.
<wers> it's 8pm here. doing overtime. i actually have work to do but i cant miss this. hehe
<mpt_> I'm Matthew Thomas, I work on Canonical's Design team as an interface designer, and I'm interested in encouraging more distributed design and UX activities.
<godbyk> My name is Kevin Godby. I'm currently a PhD student at Iowa State University in the human-computer interaction program (with a background in psychology and computer science). I'm currently procrastinating on my dissertation.
<humphreybc> My name is Benjamin Humphrey and I'm a 19 year old New Zealander and I've been using Ubuntu for about a year. I'm studying computer science in Dunedin at Otago University. My involvement in Ubuntu comprises of founding/leading the Ubuntu Manual project, helping with documentation and offering design feedback and mockups for various things.
<thorwil> i'm a visual and wannabe interaction designer (freelance). germany, not far away from the netherlands. have been busy in the ubuntu-artwork realm and lately working with humphreybc and godbyk on the ubuntu manual, where i'm responsible for the title page
<mpt_> hi mgunes, I was just wondering if you were going to make it :-)
<mpt_> we're doing introductions
<aday> my name's Allan Day, i'm a research student based in the uk. i'm a volunteer for the gnome project. i mainly work on interface design and usability stuff
<mgunes> hi mpt; I seem to have connection problems (I'm at a cafe). I'll try to reconnect and catch up with you if I drop again.
<mpt_> ok
<mpt_> Is that everyone?
<vish> Hi, I'm Vishnoo , been using ubuntu for a while .. as a hobby i'v become one of the pixel pushers , doing icons around the desktop. You'd often find me working on Humanity icons or shepherding papercut bugs. Other themes I'v worked on are the Breathe icons , notify-osd , ubuntu-mono , and recently for upstream gnome-icon , gnome-icon-symbolic too.. for apps like empathy , poppler , software center. When I'm bored of doing icons, I nit-pick on mpt's
<vish>  designs or doing some mockups .
<humphreybc> cool
<mpt_> great
<humphreybc> I think that's everyone now
<humphreybc> apart from Murat
<hyperair> Hi, I'm Loong Jin, a MOTU and maintainer of Banshee in Debian, a 2nd year computer engineering student in singapore.
<humphreybc> :)
<mpt_> So, next topic: What this team is for
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] What are ya'll here for?
<MootBot> New Topic:  What are ya'll here for?
<mpt_> I have been chatting with Jono Bacon, Master of Community about this
<mpt_> Particularly the process for people joining etc
<mpt_> I want to avoid as much bureaucracy as possible, because (a) we don't have any authority so process isn't as important, and (b) the sort of people who are good at UX stuff are often really busy and don't want to get involved in lots of process
<humphreybc> mpt_: +1 Bureaucracy = nothing gets done.
<mpt_> I've sent him a proposed charter, which is really simple, and once he's reviewed it I'll send it out to all of you
<mgunes> I'm Murat Gunes. I'm currently working as a freelance web / interactive designer, and have studied fine arts and visual design. My Ubuntu involvement has consisted mostly of bug triage and community support / moderation for the past few years. I've digested an unhealthy amount of of UX / Interaction design / HCI theory lately, and am looking to put things into practice with this team.
<humphreybc> mpt_: what's the rest of the design team's involvement in this?
<mpt_> thanks mgunes
<mpt_> The really short version is that we're not gatekeepers, we're not making design decisions, we're just trying to oil the wheels and encourage design and UX activities.
<mpt_> Those of you who are subscribed to the ayatana@ mailing list will have seen that we have no shortage of interesting ideas.
<humphreybc> mpt_: I think that's an understatement
<thorwil> i thought it was no shortage of noise, actually ;)
<humphreybc> thorwil: yeah, absolutely
<mpt_> What we do have a shortage of is things like wireframes, implementable mini-specifications, user testing, user research, that sort of thing.
<wers> yep
<mpt_> And focus. A shortage of focus. :-)
<humphreybc> mpt_: So, less random ideas and noise, more useful stuff?
<mpt_> right
<humphreybc> groovy
<vish> 30~40 mails a day is too much to read :s
<mpt_> So, with that in mind ... next topic: What activities we could set up
<humphreybc> vish: I know, I have almost stopped reading them now.
<humphreybc> Hmm
<wers> yeah. good thing gmail has threads
<hyperair> vish++
<mpt_> (humphreybc, that's your cue;-)
 * humphreybc is thinking
<vish> humphreybc: change topic
<vish> ;p
<humphreybc> So, what we want to do is encourage *good* design, right
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] What activities we could set up, yes yes
<MootBot> New Topic:  What activities we could set up, yes yes
<mpt_> MootBot is in agreement
<wers> hehe
<hyperair> lol
<humphreybc> Right now, we have a lot of ideas and things, but they never really eventuate into anything. Why not?
<mpt_> Because people don't know what the next step is
<hyperair> because the mailing list is chaotic and nobody reads it anymore.
<mpt_> Brainstorm is like this too
<wers> that's right mpt_
<mpt_> "Hey, what about..."
<humphreybc> Brainstorm IS like this too
<aday> and because devs aren't always willing to implement recommendations
<aysiu> Can you clarify what you mean by "activities"?
<mpt_> So, in my mails to you I suggested a few activities we might want to help set up
<humphreybc> mpt_: I think we need to establish exactly what we need to do before we start thinking about how we should do it
<mpt_> right
<hyperair> the mockups all get thrown into the mailing list, and get lost when a new discussion starts up and drowns the previous, which is very common in ayatana-list.
<mpt_> For example, distributed user testing
<humphreybc> Yup
<humphreybc> A centralized location for quality design would be nice
<wers> humphreybc, that would be cool
<hyperair> i think the wiki could function for this.
<wers> good design repo
<aday> the gnome design crowd are busy working on collaboration tools
<aday> some of that should bear fruit in not too long
<wers> aday, yeah. mairin's hub
<vish> sparklepony? ;)
<thorwil> the wiki might be the best we have, but it's actually a horrible thing
<humphreybc> An area (maybe a wiki for now) where we could actually post _tasks_ that are high priority for Ubuntu. People could have a crack at these tasks
<mpt_> That's an activity that would have several stages -- we'd want to set up a recommended procedure, work on improving/automating screen capture and webcam capture, things like that
<hyperair> aday: link?
<aday> sparklepony! :D
<mgunes> I was thinking in the lines of ubuntu-classroom sessions on the "101" or "what is what" of wireframes, heuristic evaluation, spec writing, etc.
<humphreybc> I agree, the wiki is not the answer in the long run
<mgunes> that's one thing I can participate in
<humphreybc> I think a lot of people want to help design but don't know where to help
<humphreybc> they're designing blind
<wers> brb boss is calling
<humphreybc> there's no information about target audience, or no information about what problems Ubuntu has - other than what each designer personally thinks, or what projects like the papercuts project pulls up
<thorwil> yeah, we should try to spread design education
<mpt_> So, user research is another activity
<aday> acheivable tasks are good. in gnome we're trying to review a lot of ui, cleaning up preferences dialogs etc
<mpt_> Who uses Ubuntu, what do they use it for, how old are they, what languages do they speak, etc
<thorwil> i'd love to throw a whole lot of infrastructure at that, but i doubt we have the ressources in man hours
<mpt_> I have no idea how we'd research that, but other people probably would.
<humphreybc> What we should be doing is taking information from the design team on problems in Ubuntu and working closely with Canonical to figure out a list of things that actually *need* definite improvement. Then we can spur focused discussion on the important stuff.
<vish> mpt_: i think first we need to snip the noise before people try to waste their time too.. send a mail that we like that people have these new ideas  , but currently not within the scope? , but rather to setup a wiki like :  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts   . ayatana/concepts ?
<humphreybc> So mpt_, as I understand it, our team is to mainly organize the work, rather than complete it ourselves?
<mpt_> humphreybc, exactly
<humphreybc> So we're sort of a middle man between Canonical and design, and the community?
<mpt_> This isn't about the Canonical Design team so much
<humphreybc> But more about channeling all those ideas from Ayatana into something useful?
<mpt_> If people can design something awesome and get it implemented and into Ubuntu completely independently, that's great
<mpt_> For example, we want application developers to be able to make their applications great without having to ask Canonical for help
<humphreybc> One activity we could do to start out would be to organize pairing up UI experts with programmers
<mpt_> yes, it's about channeling
<vish> mpt_: .. how about having a FAQ section for the design changes?  some of the questions keep getting repeated often , much too often
<humphreybc> So, some programmer has a great idea to write an app, but isn't too sure on how to design it or wants feedback on their design. They approach us, we choose some eager UX person from the community to pair them up with the programmer. End result = awesome, usable program.
<aday> there's a lot of talk about exciting/sexy new stuff at the expense of polishing what we've already got. it would be nice to review existing interfaces and get them up to scratch
<humphreybc> mpt_: I also think we should be encouraging more open design from the design team. By encouraging, I mean actually helping out where we can because I know you guys are busy.
<mpt_> vish, for changes that come from the Canonical Design team, we'll be posting rationales on design.canonical.com. For changes that come from sabdfl, he'll post on markshuttleworth.com. :-)
<vish> :D
<mpt_> aday, yes, that's a good example
<vish> aday: ++
<mpt_> There was actually an example of that on ayatana@ a couple of months ago
<mpt_> Robert Ancell asked for a usability review of Simple Scan
<humphreybc> godbyk is making some banana bread, apparently. He'll be active soon.
<humphreybc> mpt_: Right. So instead of the Ayatana ML pouncing on him with all sorts of crazy ideas, he could come to us and we'd pair him up with a suitable person.
<mpt_> but he didn't get any responses afaik
<aday> we sometimes get requests for reviews on the gnome usability list
<vish> mpt_: yeah , i mentioned that he should try the gnome UX mailing list instead
<mpt_> Well, it might be an interesting experiment to see if people who aren't experienced designers can follow instructions on doing a heuristic evaluation
<aday> mpt_: that's a shame. i always try and respond on the gnome channels. been doing a review of deja dup as a result of a request
<humphreybc> So to do any of this, people have to know we exist. We're a ghost project right now, no web presence or anything. How do we educate people about our team and get them involved?
<vish> aday: he sent it to ayatana mailing list :)
<humphreybc> can we use this for some activities? http://fivesecondtest.com/
<humphreybc> Maybe we figure out something we'd like to test, then spread awareness of it and create something like a "User Interface testing day" or something
<mpt_> I'm sure we could
<humphreybc> get the community involved in testing, it's easy and anyone can do it.
<humphreybc> The community would feel like they're helping with design if we make it obvious the results will be listened to.
<mpt_> So, let's have some actions for this meeting
<humphreybc> Sure. First action would be to talk at UDS some more, right?
<mpt_> First, would someone like to volunteer to set up a wiki page where we can list all the activities we'd like to do
<mpt_> Not all of us will be at UDS, humphreybc :-)
<mgunes> humphreybc, in my experience, making the masses aware of the difference between "listened to" and "implemented" is extremely difficult, so I'd be cautious there.
<humphreybc> mpt_: Sure, but there's always remote participation. What I'm saying is that we need another meeting to iron out the team goals, we can't go rushing into organizing activities when we still don't know what we're trying to fix, right?
<godbyk> It sounds like we also need to work on educating people on how to do UI reviews and design proposals, as well.
<vish> aday: if you wanna follow up on the simple scan review > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00987.html
<mpt_> thanks vish
<aday> vish: cheers. will have a go
<humphreybc> I firmly believe a website will be a better in the long run than a wiki. A wiki is fine for now, but we should start thinking about a site instead.
<mpt_> The difficulty of starting with Simple Scan is that its limited to the subset of users who have a scanner
<humphreybc> If we stick it on an ubuntu.com subdomain, then that would be even better.
<mpt_> but Robert would also like us to review the trunk version of Sudoku (not the version in Lucid)
<mpt_> because that's had a lot of design changes lately
<mgunes> if a significant number of us have blogs, we could set up a "Planet Ayatana UX" too
<mpt_> Unfortunately I am at a design sprint and I need to get back to work soon-ish
<humphreybc> mgunes: We could, but in my experience from UMP, it doesn't really help that much.
<humphreybc> Twitter feeds and a Facebook group are far better at spreading news than an aggregated blog.
<humphreybc> mpt_: heh
<mpt_> So, sometime today or tomorrow, I will post to ayatana@ with an introduction to heuristic evaluations, and an invitation for people to try evaluating Sudoku as a simple example
<mpt_> And we'll see how that goes
<mpt_> Maybe it will be noise
<mpt_> Maybe it will be useful
<humphreybc> Hmm.
<humphreybc> I don't hold high hopes for getting the ayatana ML to do a heuristic evaluation on something from trunk
<humphreybc> If we want the community to help us do this work, we need to make it super easy for them. As you said before, UX type people are usually really busy as it is
<mpt_> We'll need to provide step-by-step instructions on getting the code, yes
<thorwil> mpt_: how about doing a brainstorm on etherpad, to later turn that into a wiki page?
<humphreybc> But I understand it's early days
<humphreybc> and we can't exactly launch some huge website and CMS with such limited manpower :P
<mpt_> Does anyone want to volunteer to set up a document on other activities we should set up?
<mpt_> I don't mind whether it's Etherpad or a wiki page or something else
<humphreybc> mpt_: I could probably do it on the plane to UDS.
<thorwil> one moment
<humphreybc> I'll have a lot of time O.o
<thorwil> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux
<humphreybc> so
<mpt_> thanks thorwil
<humphreybc> [ACTION] Set up a document for brainstorming activities
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Set up a document for brainstorming activities
<humphreybc> [ACTION] mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation
<humphreybc> Another meeting at some point?
<mpt_> I've scheduled a meeting for the same time every week
<humphreybc> oh nice
<humphreybc> So that wasn't a mistake :P
<mpt_> If this time becomes horrible for you, please update the meeting times wiki page
<mpt_> and we'll recalculate :-)
<humphreybc> Groovy
<humphreybc> I think this is a good start
<humphreybc> If anyone comes up with ideas, stick em on the pad
<mpt_> yes, this is exciting
<mpt_> Thank you everyone for turning up
<aday> np
<humphreybc> I'll put some stuff on the pad in a minute
<humphreybc> Thankyou guys!
<thorwil> alright
<wers> ok. boss is out i'm back
<wers> is it done? hehe
<humphreybc> wers: pretty much :P
<aday> wers: too late :)
<humphreybc> Oh, also, we need a mailing list
<humphreybc> Shall I set that up?
<mpt_> Thank you wers for providing such an excellent example of how we're too busy for bureaucracy
<aysiu> I'm still digesting... to be honest, I don't know if I can meet every week at this time.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Just set one up through launchpad then.
<mpt_> humphreybc, sure, just activate the LP team mailing list
<wers> aw. haha
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> i'll do that now
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:41.
<wers> good thing there's a log
<aday> see you next week :)
<humphreybc> wers: yeah
<wers> hopefully, no overtime for me next week. see you!
<humphreybc> either at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ or irclogs.ubuntu.com should do the trick
<mpt_> aysiu, that would be quite understandable. Perhaps you can have a different role, e.g. posting, to our new mailing list, links to forum threads that involve design issues
<wers> mailing list please so we can reply at our convenient times :D
<humphreybc> wers: yep, i'll set it up in a jiffy
<aysiu> I think that sounds more manageable. I'd love to help out, but I also don't know if participating directly in these IRC chats is maximizing my strengths.
<vish> godbyk: hehe , we both posted the link at the same time ;)
<godbyk> vish: I noticed!
<mpt_> aysiu, cool
<aysiu> I don't even know what a heuristic evaluation is!
<aysiu> I will check out the IRC logs, though. And if there is a mailing list, let me know.
<godbyk> aysiu: The mailing list will appear on the bottom of this page: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-ux
<mgunes> do LP mailing lists automatically subscribe all team members upon creation?
<godbyk> (once it's been set up)
<mgunes> I seem to recall they did when they were new
<mpt_> mgunes, I don't know
<mpt_> We should make clear that the mailing list is just for organizational stuff, design questions belong in ayatana@ (or equivalent Gnome or KDE lists)
<humphreybc> yeah
<wers> mpt_, which mailing list? the one that's going to be created for ayatana ux?
<mpt_> wers, yes
<humphreybc> I've already had to decline someone who wanted to join the team an I awkwardly explained why :s
<wers> noted
<vish> humphreybc: you can just not approve ;) , no need to decline :)
<humphreybc> vish: ah, forgot about that bit
<mgunes> I'm somewhat worried about the notion of the "Ayatana" label covering all interaction design activities. This applies to the Ayatana ML too, which has become the place to throw ideas around about all design issues, not necessarily the Ayatana project.
<humphreybc> mpt_: should we set up our own IRC room or not so much
<wers> mgunes, oh yes
<mpt_> humphreybc, I don't think so, #ayatana is quiet enough
<humphreybc> kay
<vish> humphreybc: no! -1
<humphreybc> must be quieter than the ML!
<godbyk> I've never been sure of what the scope of the Ayatana project actually is. :)
<humphreybc> godbyk, you're not alone
<vish> godbyk: heh , joining the party late? ;p
<mpt_> mgunes, yeah, I originally intended to use the name Ubuntu instead, but Jono made the good point that we want upstream developers to feel welcome asking us for help (or getting suggestions from us)
<mpt_> godbyk, originally it was "stuff around the outside of the screen", i.e. notifications and menus
<wers> i really have to go now. see you next week :)
<mpt_> godbyk, now it's "UX of software in and for Ubuntu"
<mpt_> see you wers
<humphreybc> mpt_: that's somewhat vague
<mpt_> yes, it is
<godbyk> vish: Yeah, I've been reading, just not commenting much.  Had to babysit some baking banana bread. :)
<mpt_> I don't think that's a bug, though. It has a hard center and a vague perimeter.
<mgunes> mpt_, if that's the case (I wasn't really aware that it was) , then the word Ayatana is OK.
<humphreybc> it's more like an "Ayatana: Random design idea moshpit."
<vish> godbyk: i meant the "not knowing the scope" party ;)
<godbyk> mpt_: I don't feel so bad about being confused now!
<godbyk> vish: Ah.. yeah, that too!
<humphreybc> mpt_: Would we be working on improving Ayatana itself, or are we entirely separate?
<aday> humphreybc: designer tools stuff: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-one-where-the-designers-ask-for-a-pony/
<aday> that stuff seems to be coming together now
<mpt_> humphreybc, I don't understand the question
<godbyk> aday: Excellent! I was hoping it would, but wasn't holding my breath.
<humphreybc> mpt_: So Ayatana is a bit of a moshpit of ideas right now, and I don't think it's entirely useful (or at least not reaching its full potential). Would we work on improving that, or would we stay out of Ayatana stuff
<mpt_> humphreybc, the former
<humphreybc> okay, good
<mpt_> but not throwing our weight around, just making suggestions of things to do
<humphreybc> gotcha
<thorwil> too much orange on the pad
<vish> thorwil: nice work! :)
<thorwil> heh, ty
<humphreybc> thorwil: lol
<humphreybc> well that's your job, right? Pad writer?
<humphreybc> Official Ayatana UX Team note taker.
<humphreybc> :P
<vish> thorwil: awesome! last entry
<thorwil> lol
<humphreybc> I'm not sure if I'll have time to make this project rock as much as I'd like to, we already have enough on our plate for UMP! That is, unless, someone starts paying me to work on these projects? hint.. hint...
<vish> argh!
<mgunes> I need to part right now - I'll check the rest of the logs. See you on the ML!
<mpt_> see you mgunes
<humphreybc> "This team's mailing list will be available within a few minutes."
<humphreybc> chow mgunes
 * hyperair considers dropping the "chow" hilight
<godbyk> So what're our very next step?  (Or, more specifically, what's the very next thing I should be doing? :))
<hyperair> everytime someone misspells ciao, i get highlighted.
<godbyk> hyperair: keep it as long as you promise to berate those who use it for spelling errors. :)
 * hyperair throws tomatoes at humphreybc 
<vish> hyperair: chowder?  ;p
<hyperair> grr
<hyperair> =p
<humphreybc> godbyk, not sure. I guess we just wait for the reaction to mpt's email to ayatana tomorrow
<humphreybc> I'd like to get some web presence for our project up soon
<humphreybc> hyperair: why do you have chow on highlight anyway?
<vish> godbyk: probably wait for mpt's mail and reply from jono
<hyperair> humphreybc: my surname.
<godbyk> 'kay.
<vish> humphreybc: his name!
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> I don't think Pidgin can do highlighting. Which is a bit sad.
<vish> humphreybc: we should stop chatting here , since this is a meeting channel :)
<hyperair> aye sir
<humphreybc> vish: yeah, i might get banned
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> move to #ubuntu-manual, we're allowed to chat as much as we like there :D
<humphreybc> it's basically a chatroom
<thorwil> yeah, but don't dare to use #ayatana
<humphreybc> thorwil: lol
 * hyperair uses #ayatana as a rant-place
<humphreybc> I wish I had the time to read all the messages in the ayatana ML
<humphreybc> but it's getting out of hand, seems to be more emails in there than ever from this cycle
 * hyperair suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users of the indicator-applet who lament the loss of the tooltips
 * humphreybc also suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users with the choice to move the window buttons to the left
<hyperair> yes, agreed.
<aday> the gnome shell list is similar in many respects. i think people just like to bike shed
<godbyk> I think a lot of the bike-shedding discussions could be mitigated if actual data were presented.
<godbyk> But that never actually happens.
<humphreybc> godbyk, do we even have actual data to present in the first place?
<godbyk> I assume that Canonical occasionally might.
<godbyk> But in general, no.
<godbyk> I'm suggesting we should start gathering data instead of just collecting everyone's opinions.
<humphreybc> godbyk, yep, and we need to write up that idea on the wiki for our session at UDS
<ScottK> In general, I think the accumulated habits and learning of existing users get insufficient attention and value from designers.
<ScottK> If they valued it more, they'd get less resistance.
<godbyk> ScottK: Sometimes, though, those habits have been developed to cope with poorly designed software. And improving the underlying design, despite requiring some people to relearn things, is better for everyone.
<ScottK> godbyk: Sometimes.  Often the marginal benefit is not worth it.
<aday> also, many the people on these lists aren't representative of the majority of users
<D4mi4n> hi
<D4mi4n> did anybody tried to use the blackberry us modem ?
<ScottK> D4mi4n: Use #ubuntu for help.
<ScottK> aday: That's true, but neither are designers.
<godbyk> ScottK: Right. One of the first rules that designers learn is that you're almost never designing the product for yourself.
<ScottK> My experience is that developers tend to be far less disconnected from users than designers assume and generally welcome well considered design.
<godbyk> I don't think that developers are disconnected with their users, but they are often only interested in incremental changes and don't want to tackle the fundamental design flaws in their software.
<godbyk> And that's understandable given the amount of effort it takes and the time they've put into the existing code base, etc.
<ScottK> That hasn't been my experience.  IME they generally don't know how to do it and welcome well considered inputs.
<humphreybc> ScottK: you should read "The Inmates are running the Asylum" if you haven't already
<ScottK> I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it hasn't been my experience.
<ScottK> The larger problem in my experience has been developers having too narrow a focus to understand how their development area fits in a larger context.
<ScottK> Once they get that, then a lot of resistance to change vanishes.
<godbyk> Sure. Unfortunately, when I've made suggestions, I've often been met with the 'we accept patches' response.
<ScottK> Which can either be a function of how you approach the communication or the project's openness to outside input.
<vish> ScottK: ++1 :D   <ScottK> My experience is that developers tend to be far less disconnected from users than designers assume and generally welcome well considered design.
<godbyk> I think that it's also a response they provide because a lot of the time, when someone says, 'You should do this completely differently,' it's not backed up by any meaningful reasons.
<ScottK> Yes.
<ScottK> http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/03/open_source_usability_success.html for an example of it going well.
<godbyk> ScottK: nice! it's good to see stories of usability working well with open source projects.
<vish> godbyk: like for the current buttons switch , if the windicators were announced at the time of the switch , it would have gotten far less resistance [not that the idea is great ;) ] but a better reception
<vish> but it seems  the windicators were developed as an aftermath of the response ;p
<godbyk> vish: I agree completely.  I think the way that situation was handled was absolutely horrible.
<godbyk> And it doesn't at all help relations between developers and designers.
<humphreybc> Absolutely
<godbyk> Or instill any confidence in the recommendations that designers provide.
<humphreybc> I also think the aftermath wasn't handled particularly well by the design team, or Mark, or Jono who's the Community Manager.
<humphreybc> It's safe to say Jono didn't do a whole lot of managing the community during that period
<humphreybc> but hey
<humphreybc> all in the past now
<humphreybc> I just hope the lessons were learnt
<vish> ScottK: btw , nice work on the kubutnu netbook , i tested the cd and it seems really neat
<humphreybc> but from what I hear, this tends to happen quite often. I wouldn't be surprised if the exact same thing happens for Maverick - breaking UI freezes, landing stuff really late without telling anyone, etc etc
<ScottK> vish: Thanks.  It's mostly upstream's work, we just put the pieces together.
<ScottK> vish: If you ever want to chat with the plasma-netbook developers/designers (it's the same people on that project) there is now a #plasma-netbook channel.
<vish> ScottK: neat.. will do , thanks
<vish> humphreybc: rickspencer mentioned there wont be UIFe for maverick ;)  not sure how far it will work though
<humphreybc> no UI freeze?
<humphreybc> well, won't that just be fun.
<vish> humphreybc: the UIF will exist but no exceptions..
<persia> There will be a UI Freeze.  There will likely be UIFe requests.  I suspect the statement is intended to mean that none are planned in advance.
<persia> Exceptions are *always* granted at some level, because sometimes there are bugs that *are* release-critical but require a UIFe.
<vish> persia: i think he meant like for the changes we made this cycle
<vish> the silly little changes
<ScottK> Also, at least for Ubuntu the new theme landed before the U/I freeze.
<godbyk> ScottK: It wasn't stable at that point. They rearranged the window control buttons after the freeze, still, i think.
<godbyk> We had to retake a bunch of screenshots and patch a few.
<ScottK> There were certainly post freeze changes, but the new theme with the buttons on the left landed ~a day or so before the freeze.
<ScottK> Most other flavors had to land the new branding post-freeze because it wasn't ready.
<godbyk> That's true.
<godbyk> Either way, it certainly makes writing documentation difficult. :)
<ScottK> Agreed.
<vish> godbyk: UIFe mainly concern the docs team approval, and since they dont have any screenshots it didnt matter and got approved.. sucks for the non-official teams though
<godbyk> vish: That's true.
<ScottK> vish: Kubuntu was one of the ones that didn't make it and they are certainly official.
<vish> ScottK: true , but i meant for the button switches :)
<humphreybc> vish: yeah, well I'm going to kindly ask that they consider UMP as well in the future
<humphreybc> considering we actually have screenshots and the docs team don't :)
<popey> now now children
 * popey can say that given he's the old fart round here :)
<godbyk> popey: are you also an old fart in this channel? or just #ubuntu-manual?
<popey> oh, everywhere :)
<godbyk> ah, good to know! :)
<humphreybc> hahahaha
<humphreybc> hilarious
<humphreybc> popey: I *did* add a smiley face at the end of my docs team jab, so that makes everything alright. Right? Right?
<ScottK> popey: As long as I'm here, you aren't the old fart in the room.
<popey> \o/
<humphreybc> popey is overcome by joy as he realizes he is not the oldest in the room
<godbyk> Don't feel bad, though, popey, we still think you're old.  (... says the third[?] eldest)
<humphreybc> holey moley we have a lot to get through
 * humphreybc is le tired
<daker> humphreybc, just at time
<nisshh> lets go then
<nisshh> no time to waste
<humphreybc> ye
<humphreybc> who's here?
<ubuntujenkins> o/
<nisshh> me, godbyk
 * godbyk waves
<humphreybc> nisshh, isn't it like really early in aussie?
<dutchie> uhoh
<nisshh> yes, 4am
<humphreybc> have we got any translators here? any Ilyas?
<nisshh> she is in the channel
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ChrisWoollard> yes
<semioticrobotic> giddyup
<humphreybc> great, fairly good turnout then :)
<humphreybc> okay, agenda is here
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<semioticrobotic> that's quite an agenda
<nisshh> no kidding!
<thorwil> !
<humphreybc> we can use this for our scribbling notes for today
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
<dutchie> i'd like it on record that i am of the opinion has lost his marbles
<dutchie> that humphreybc*
<humphreybc> yeah, so what we'll do is just run over each thing briefly, get a general idea and then basically continue further talk in the list/next week and stuff
<nisshh> dutchie: why is that?
<thorwil> dutchie: he had marbles?
<Red_HamsterX> I think he's perfectly sane. Just over-ambitious.
<humphreybc> okay, someone got the project philosophy around? thorwil, have you got that link?
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> thorwil: well, yeah
<humphreybc> order!
<dutchie> ok, i'll stop being disruptive now
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Manual Philosophy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Manual Philosophy
<thorwil> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/axMP6X6TIq
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/axMP6X6TIq
 * semioticrobotic thinks humphreybc needs a GavelBot
<humphreybc> oay
<dutchie> no, not *another* bot
<humphreybc> Thorsten, Kevin and I worked on these a few days ago
<humphreybc> they're basically our "principles" for the team. They're not goals, they are independent of situation, and should reflect our team whenever/wherever
<humphreybc> they're pretty rough at the moment but those who haven't already had a look should bookmark it and make sure you do
<thorwil> "8. Success of our users is the ultimate goal" should be first!?
<humphreybc> (all of this stuff will be emailed to the main list after the meeting for further discussion)
<humphreybc> thorwil: yah, you're probably right :D
<nisshh> humphreybc: the docs team said in a blog post that we were a direct "competitor"
<humphreybc> nisshh: yeah I read that
<Red_HamsterX> They sent e-mail to the list to that effect, too, didn't they?
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: when was that?
<dutchie> humphreybc: rectify this at uds, please
<dutchie> kthxbai
<Red_HamsterX> A while ago. Something about how we should be supporting the online docs. And then one of us responded by arguing that we're catering towards different audiences.
<nisshh> we need to stay on topic anyway!
<humphreybc> dutchie: sure. For anyone who doesn't know, there's this session here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-documentation-teams-collaboration
<Red_HamsterX> I'll find the thread after this meeting.
<ChrisWoollard> thanks
<humphreybc> you guys chat about the philosophy for one sec, i just need to upload some images to flickr
<humphreybc> (to show you)
<humphreybc> (thorsten, godbyk, that's your cue)
<IlyaHaykinson> I think that the research aspect should be towards the top of our principles
<IlyaHaykinson> it's one thing to just write stuff that _we_ -- as experts -- think is important
 * humphreybc would have done this earlier but he literally just woke up
<IlyaHaykinson> and it's a whole other thing -- and something a lot more useful -- to back this up with info
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yes, I completely agree. That's a very strong aspect of our team that should be reflected in our values
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: i agree, without research there is no solid data
<humphreybc> In my opinion not enough user research is conducted in the Ubuntu community, and we should lead the charge in that area (like we do in a tonne of other areas)
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe we could take that a step further and find a way to run frequent polls on the site, for users to vote on the importance of various things as we think of them.
<nisshh> Red_HamsterX: a weekly poll?
<nisshh> or monthly?
<thorwil> humphreybc: on the other hand, having research happen outside this project could lessen our load
<Red_HamsterX> I'm thinking more like a bunch of polls, with everyone able to add them, perhaps via a bot in the channel.
<nisshh> Red_HamsterX: we do need to keep it simple though, dont forget that
<thorwil> what i mean is that we should not swallow everything we touch
<humphreybc> thorwil: Yea, dreams are free. I emailed Belinda Lopez (Canonical's training manager) and she was very helpful, but said they just don't keep any data on frequently asked questions or support requests.
<nisshh> since we are asking these questions to new users
<synergetic> Many sites I've seen would have, at the bottom of info pages "Did you find this useful? Y/N" - would perhaps having something like that on the online docs help here? Things found useful there might be useful here, too.
<humphreybc> synergetic: ;) agenda #3 you'll see something
<Red_HamsterX> Well, yes, of course. I'm thinking something simple like "Firefox's plugin system" with choices about how intuitive users found it while learning.
<Red_HamsterX> If it scores low, it might be a good thing to cover,
<thorwil> synergetic: it's often that question that i do not find helpful as a user
<nisshh> synergetic: thats brilliant!
<Red_HamsterX> If it scores high, then we can probably just put a hyperlink into the document.
<humphreybc> right
<Red_HamsterX> Ooh. Context-sensitive feedback. That would definitely be a good way to collect data.
<Red_HamsterX> +1 @ synergetic.
<humphreybc> should we talk about this more in the "Research and surveys" topic a bit later on?
 * Red_HamsterX quiets.
<IlyaHaykinson> yes, later is better
<nisshh> what if we go with both ideas?
<humphreybc> heh
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> Good ideas Red_HamsterX, jot some stuff down on the pad
<humphreybc> we'll have to email the ML all this info for further discussion
<humphreybc> okay, so, moving on (otherwise we will be here for ages):
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Improving translation workflow
<MootBot> New Topic:  Improving translation workflow
<dutchie> oh dear
<dutchie> i'm going to have to look away from c4's alternative election night
<humphreybc> So there's a thread in the ML where I asked translators for feedback
<ubuntujenkins> are there any translators here?
<ChrisWoollard> yes
<humphreybc> I was hoping that we'd have a couple of translators here to provide feedback
<humphreybc> anyone?
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> so basically, one thing I found from the list was that the translators want to be able to see their works faster
<humphreybc> work*
<ChrisWoollard> That would be good
<ubuntujenkins> I would agree with humphreybc
<dutchie> right, adverts
<humphreybc> this would mean updating the translations more regularly. daker, dutchie. Can we script the stuff for the manual and for the website so it gets updated at a set time each day?
<dutchie> i can concentrate
<dutchie> humphreybc: probably
<humphreybc> Then we could tell translators to check the site at like, midday UTC and they can see their new shit
<daker> humphreybc, we can
<humphreybc> okay, I think we should do that
<nisshh> good plan
<dutchie> in fact, if the merging didn't generate loads of conflicts, it would be easy
<godbyk> dutchie: what conflicts do you see?
<humphreybc> That would just be something we can do straight away to alleviate some of the issue. But we really want to be thinking about how we can fix it long term
<godbyk> dutchie: I always just download the tarball from launchpad and overwrite the existing po files with those from launchpad.
<dutchie> godbyk: mainly po4a and lp fighting over po file contents
<dutchie> godbyk: i'm not sure if you can auto-request a translation export
<dutchie> and make that po file formats
<godbyk> I see.  I've been manually requesting the exports.
<dutchie> godbyk: that would be a massive pain
<dutchie> it would be possible to screen scrape the lp screen, but that is quite a hack
<humphreybc> Can we talk with the launchpad guys to work out something?
<humphreybc> I'm chatting with henninge next week at UDS
<humphreybc> lemme find the blueprint
<humphreybc> if you want to know anything, or have a feature request for LP, add it to this whiteboard and I'll bring it up with the devs
<humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-launchpad-translator-communication
<humphreybc> it's regarding communication but we'll just bundle everything into one
<dutchie> shall i add it
<dutchie> ?
<humphreybc> dutchie: yup
<humphreybc> go for it
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so in the future we'd like to simplify how things are translated
<humphreybc> a lot of people have been having difficulty with the latex commands
<humphreybc> I'm not entirely sure how to get around that. Improve po4a to make it ignore latex stuff more effectively?
<ChrisWoollard> Re the latex stuff
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: Do you think the problem could just be overcome with better translator education about latex commands? ie, a style guide etc
<ChrisWoollard> The other day someone mentioned that there was a pdf that kevin created. It had loads in it
<raffaele> ciao, sono uno di coloro che traducono Ubuntu manual in italiano, potrei ascoltare senza intervenire?
<raffaele> hello, I'm one of those who translate Ubuntu manual in Italian, I could listen without intervention?
<ChrisWoollard> Putting that in an accessible place would be good
<dutchie> raffaele: of course
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: yeah, that was our style guide from a while ago. godbyk is going to re-do it and make it better very soon, aren't ya godbyk?
<ChrisWoollard> The style guide was what it was
<godbyk> raffaele: Sure.  Feel free to jump in if you have anything to say, too.
<humphreybc> raffaele: yes, please!
<dutchie> the style guide needs more publicising
<godbyk> humphreybc: well, we're going to expand the style guide to encompass more than just the latex commands.
<godbyk> dutchie: I agree.
<thorwil> i guess it's either  making translators understand latex macros well enough, or creating a clever editor
<ChrisWoollard> That would be great
<semioticrobotic> can we link to the style guide on the Web site?
<dutchie> i'll /topic it in #ubuntu-manual
<semioticrobotic> that's an important document
 * godbyk really wishes we could add a link to the top of the ubuntu-manual translations page that points to the style guide.
<raffaele> thanks
<IlyaHaykinson> i think the style guide should be online, on the wiki perhaps?
<humphreybc> thanks dutchie
<IlyaHaykinson> where the existing style guide is/was?
<ChrisWoollard> Yes
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: problem with the wiki is that it can't demonstrate what LaTeX commands look like
<humphreybc> hence why godbyk did it in a PDF
<humphreybc> but we should embed it on our website in some reader
<ChrisWoollard>  or on the getting involved page
<nisshh> google docs?
<ChrisWoollard> That page is very laking
<humphreybc> yeah. Basically, it needs to be widely publicized
<dutchie> what's the url for the guide?
<ChrisWoollard> Lacking
<godbyk> https://docs.google.com/viewer
<raffaele> ehm, i think that the document writed in latex after some translations isn't so complicated
<humphreybc> dutchie: the Getting Involved page for Translators is fairly minimalist :P
<godbyk> http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so, godbyk, could you work on improving the style guide somewhat (if it needs it) and then daker, could you please look into the google PDF viewer to embed it on the website?
<ChrisWoollard> It only has half the info
<godbyk> we could link to the pdf from http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/translators
<humphreybc> We need to rewrite a lot of the instructions on the website anyway - it's a bit complicated. Also, now that Ground Control is packaged in Lucid and working, we can use that and nisshh has been working on a bzr setup script.
<ChrisWoollard> That is good
<ChrisWoollard> possibly on editors also
<humphreybc> godbyk, yea, we should also have it on the authors/editors pages too
<humphreybc> coz they need to adhere to style
<godbyk> agreed.
<semioticrobotic> yes please
<humphreybc> fantastic
<humphreybc> daker, are you happy with that?
<ChrisWoollard> You also need to test TexLive 2009 from the package tree aand get the missing bits in the package tree
<nisshh> humphreybc: we need to pick up the pace...
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: so it's easier to install for Joe Bloggs? I agree
<ChrisWoollard> Yes
<humphreybc> nisshh: we *always* need to pick up the pace :P
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: I think that's something ubuntujenkins has been working on
<nisshh> meh, well put!
<ChrisWoollard> Lovely
<humphreybc> or at least getting stuff in a PPA for easier installation
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: ubuntujenkins has been working on that.
 * ubuntujenkins looks up from uni work
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: what's the progress on your TexLive 2009 PPA thing?
<ChrisWoollard> Another good point
 * nisshh has also been working on making it easier for newbies to start out
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: not bad a strange problem today i am doing it as quickly as i can. Lots of uni work at the moment
<humphreybc> So yeah, key thing to remember is that as we get bigger, we're going to get more complicated and we want to avoid that
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: that's all good
<humphreybc> next topic!
<Red_HamsterX> Good foundations -> smooth growth?
<ChrisWoollard> I think the website iis one of the reasons it is so hard to learn about becoming an editior
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] HTML5 website
<MootBot> New Topic:  HTML5 website
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: If you have suggestions for improving that area, could add them to the pad: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
<humphreybc> okaly dokaly, take a look at these
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/72157623882545941/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/72157623882545941/
<humphreybc> This is our ace up our sleeve, if you will
<dutchie> i will have more time in a month or 2 to assist with such a thin
<dutchie> g
<dutchie> i certainly will be interested
<humphreybc> It's basically a web based, interactive support website
<humphreybc> using our content from the manual
<nisshh> im interested too
<thorwil> humphreybc: why html5?
<humphreybc> it'll have some really neat feedback features, like the widget on the left that appears when your mouse hovers over a paragraph
<ChrisWoollard> It looks pretty
<semioticrobotic> the design is refreshing, but I worry about reaction from the docs team
<c7p> i like the idea
<dutchie> thorwil: because it's AWESOME
<humphreybc> thorwil: because that gives us the most options for videos and things?
<nisshh> humphreybc: would the web version be the same, or more comprehensive than the pdf?
<semioticrobotic> hopefully this is part of the collaborative discussions at UDS next week
<humphreybc> nisshh: more comprehensive in the long run
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: yeah it will be
<ChrisWoollard> What is the browser support of HTML5 like?
<humphreybc> the docs team will probably freak
<Red_HamsterX> Dock some sort of chat applet into the mockup, with feed directed at an IRC channel or something.
<nisshh> right
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: because this is an amazing overhaul that's very much needed
<dutchie> ChrisWoollard: firefox/chrome are fine
<Red_HamsterX> So we can find out, from people who are actually seeking help, how to better improve the layout.
<semioticrobotic> safari is fine
<dutchie> ChrisWoollard: that other browser is no good until version 9
<nisshh> docs team: AAAAHAHHHAHHA! humphreybc has gone insane!!!!!
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: not sure about firefox
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: Hmm. Interesting idea. Perhaps instead of having it on each page, we could actually have a live help area with an embedded IRC thing for #ubuntu or #ubuntu-manual
<ChrisWoollard> I also think Opera is ok
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: 3.6 i'm pretty sure does
<Red_HamsterX> #ubuntu-manual-web*
<thorwil> i was under the impression that html5 is still in flux, and that you have support feature by feature?
 * godbyk thinks we'll have to get some help for poor daker! :)
<Red_HamsterX> I'm thinking it'd be awesome to actually interact with users as a live index.
<ChrisWoollard> Would that be the browser with 59%..... 58%... 57%.... share
<Red_HamsterX> If we notice a lot of people looking ofr a specific article, we know what to promote.
<daker> godbyk, +1
<daker> :)
<Red_HamsterX> Embeddable IRC things are common. =P
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: may be there is a list here http://www.youtube.com/html5?gl=GB&hl=en-GB
<humphreybc> So, you'll notice it's based on the ubuntu.com new website design. This is basically just the mockups of what I'd *like* it to be in the long run - if we could get it at an ubuntu.com subdomain, then that would be cool. But for now, it'll be at our own domain name.
<daker> we need more developers
<synergetic> humphreybc: #ubuntu is a bit manic, though. i went there for help once and was quite intimidated  by the pace of conversation
<Red_HamsterX> I'll be getting started on the Quickshot server rebuild tonight.
<humphreybc> synergetic: yeah, i agree
<nisshh> daker: devs for what exactly?
<humphreybc> We could definitely have an area on the site for technical support _with the site itself_ which has a chat thing for #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> nisshh: web developers
<godbyk> nisshh: To help with web dev work.
<nisshh> right
<IlyaHaykinson> i think the key is not HTML_5_, but _HTML_.
<humphreybc> we need a mother sh*tload of web developers
<IlyaHaykinson> as opposed to PDF
<ubuntujenkins> I will start the wuickshot gui asap
<ubuntujenkins> I think daker could use a hand with the website
<Red_HamsterX> No, humphreybc, we don't. We just need a few good ones.
<humphreybc> now, a few snags like latex > html conversion could be tricky
 * nisshh sticks his hand up (wants to be a web dev!)
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: well, yeah, that too :P
<humphreybc> So basically, these are the mockups that I did a few days ago. I will start a new ML email with them attached to the whole team for feedback. Ideas on implementation are appreciated.
<humphreybc> I'll be talking with the other doc teams at UDS about collaboration
<humphreybc> and I'm sure guys like the learning project will be keen to help with this stuff
<thorwil> wouldn't be the first thing be to clear up how we get from latex to html?
<nisshh> thorwil: manual conversion line-by-line probably!
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm pretty sure most of our content will convert easily.
<humphreybc> Also, it's worth noting that something like this is not high on the docs team agenda. Someone asked them the other day if they were going to make help.ubuntu.com available in different languages, and they explicitly said no. We will have it in different langauges.
<humphreybc> thorwil: pretty much :)
<IlyaHaykinson> because we've been reasonably good about not using too much custom latex stuff in the chapter files
<dutchie> as long as we keep nice semantic markup, we'll be fine imo
<humphreybc> It's also very important to realize that the PDF will actually get smaller for the next few releases
<daker> thorwil, http://www.davidpace.com/all-else/other-items/latex-to-html.htm
<thorwil> well rumor had godbyk saw problems there
<godbyk> There are plenty of ways to convert from latex to html, some better than others.
<humphreybc> stuff like the command line and that will only be available on the website - it's "Getting Started with Ubuntu" and therefore should basically just cover how to get started - for learning more, we'd point you to the "Online Learning Center" portion of our site.
<godbyk> Most of them won't read our files and convert them as-is due to unicocde characters and whatnot.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we just convert the chapters, not treating it as latex but instead as just text files with some custom markup
<humphreybc> The "Online Learning Center" would also have featured articles from a number of people who want to help out, but perhaps their material is slightly too advanced or doesn't meet our same style to fit into the PDF.
<IlyaHaykinson> and write a custom converter. will be far easier.
<godbyk> But I can write a script to handle all the cases of latex code we have at the moment.
<thorwil> coll then
<thorwil> cool, even
<nisshh> humphreybc:  you mean like specific topic HOWTO's or something?
<godbyk> We'll want to look into using a single source document (say, xml, perhaps?) in the future that we can transform to both great latex and great html.
<dutchie> yay xml
<humphreybc> The website will be in two parts, pretty much: The Ubuntu support area, which is for direct issues with Ubuntu itself/learning how to do things. Think chapters 1 - 5 in the manual. Then there will be a Learning Center which will be for people who don't have problems, but just want to learn more. Think chapter 6 - 9.
<dutchie> that'll be a pain to edit
<dutchie> /write
<nisshh> xml = yuck!
<godbyk> dutchie: yeah, we've been discussing having an online WYSIWYG editor that hides all the markup.
<humphreybc> nisshh: pretty much. Featured articles like this one by Danny Piccirillo: http://blog.thesilentnumber.me/2010/04/ubuntu-1004-post-install-guide-what-to.html
<thorwil> godbyk: for that, xml should have very clear benefits over staying with latex
<nisshh> right
<Red_HamsterX> Abiword and, I believe, OpenOffice, can export into DocBook pretty easily. We could look into XSLTs against that again.
<humphreybc> So Danny could submit his nice article to our site, we'd stick it on there and feature it on the homepage of the Learning Center for a while
<jcisio> not a pain, xml > xhtml we do xhtml then
<synergetic> godbyk: what about D.I.T.A.?
<godbyk> thorwil: the primary benefit would be that is parsable, where latex isn't really.
<godbyk> synergetic: I'll have a look at it.
<IlyaHaykinson> I'm with godbyk on having a single standardized storage format, and render it as HTML or LaTeX
<humphreybc> Danny's article doesn't match with our style for the PDF, and it's a bit too detailed for the Getting Started book - but it will fit perfectly on the site
<nisshh> xml is just overcomplicated html
<dutchie> it may be easier to have the central data as html
<humphreybc> One key thing we want the website to do is provide a way to give feedback on things, and suggest edits. We want it to be a moderated wiki, if you will.
<dutchie> there are already loads of editors and parsers for it
<IlyaHaykinson> no, i disagree. i think we need to use some semantic markup, which does not include _any_ graphical information.
<humphreybc> But the key is minimalism. Nothing should distract from the content itself.
<nisshh> humphreybc: would it be worth having a server manual on the website eventually too?
<godbyk> dutchie: true, but then we lose a lot of the great typographic of latex.
<thorwil> +1 for semantic markup
<humphreybc> nisshh: we could look at that, yeah
<IlyaHaykinson> at any rate, this storage format discussion is orthogonal to the general idea of building the site.
<IlyaHaykinson> plus we're 42 minutes into the meeting and on item 3 of 13 on the agenda
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: true. :)
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: yes it is, we should discuss it later
<IlyaHaykinson> so, can we agree that the website is a good idea and we like it?
<humphreybc> Yep
<IlyaHaykinson> and that we should pursue it further?
<IlyaHaykinson> +1 on that from me.
<godbyk> If anyone has comments on the format, etc., feel free to add them to the meeting notes: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
<humphreybc> Oh, btw, we should have this done for Maverick
<nisshh> +1 from me too
<semioticrobotic> +1
<humphreybc> It looks like a tonne of work but I reckon we can pull it off ;)
<humphreybc> Moving on!
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Quickstart booklets
<MootBot> New Topic:  Quickstart booklets
<humphreybc> Now you guys probably know about this
<nisshh> here goes humphreybc with his really ambitious goals again!
<humphreybc> Basically it's just creating really pretty, small and concise booklets for LoCo teams and the like to hand out and market Ubuntu
<humphreybc> While there are quite a few similar things on Spread Ubuntu, ours is going to be better
<nisshh> how would it be any different?
<humphreybc> We could start off with just some easy ones, like installation guide, or perhaps a "what is Ubuntu" type booklet.
<ChrisWoollard> Are you thinking something like an oreilly pocket guiide?
<humphreybc> Then we could branch out into task-related booklets, for example, "Transferring photos from your camera" etc
<nisshh> we dont want another replica of the ubuntu pocket guide
<dutchie> we definitely need to find something to do that doesn't take us dangerously close to another ubuntu project ;)
<humphreybc> Basically, it's the text from the manual in a different format
<ChrisWoollard> all or selected bits?
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: well, we'd have a larger range, they'd be a lot prettier, more consistent and very printer friendly for distribution with LoCo teams.
<humphreybc> selected bits
<humphreybc> we're talking only 3 or 4 pages long, maybe two or three fold.
<nisshh> meh, bit too much like "collectibles" if you ask me
<persia> If you're concerned about collision, that's usually a good indication that it's a good idea to work *with* another team to create a shared, better, result.
<ChrisWoollard> Almost like a cheat sheet  kind of thing
<semioticrobotic> is this the time t talk dimensions?  I'm just trying to get a sense of how these booklets will look
<humphreybc> persia: We'd love to work with the docs team
<humphreybc> persia: Feel free to try and tell them that!
<IlyaHaykinson> i would make the quickstart booklet a "nice to have" rather than a key goal of the maverick sprint. mainly we're being evaluated on our ability to deliver great manuals version after version.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: correct
<humphreybc> priorities are important
<IlyaHaykinson> perhaps one or two people can make the quickstart their project, and go off and plan it out, and come to the team with a ready-made plan?
<nisshh> i agree with ilya on this one
<humphreybc> the quickstart booklets aren't particularly high on the agenda
<synergetic> persia: +1
<persia> humphreybc: I've seen the mail.  I didn't want to reopen that.  the Spead Ubuntu thing might not be the same. :)
<nisshh> not everything needs to ready for maverick
<humphreybc> I'll be working on the design of the booklet with thorwil and anyone else who is interested, then Kevin will work on the LaTeX stuff to create them.
<humphreybc> The key thing is that we're reusing our own content in all of these formats
<humphreybc> which means we don't have to write more stuff
<humphreybc> nisshh: true, but it's always good to reach for the stars and at least you'll end up on the moon
<thorwil> humphreybc: currently i see no space on my agenda for a booklet
<humphreybc> thorwil: Don't worry, I'll be doing most of the design
<IlyaHaykinson> well, the quickstart booklet will necessarily need totally different content.
<thorwil> humphreybc: the parts of that sentence don't match
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't think anything we have now is directly usable.
<humphreybc> thorwil: I mean, I'll do the design, then ask you to have a look for feedback
<nisshh> me neither
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: sure, it might need some tweaking to make it contextual enough to fit into such a small booklet
<humphreybc> but, we'll see how we go
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: right
<humphreybc> I'll talk with the LoCo council at UDS to see if they'd actually be interested in using something like this
<humphreybc> christ we have ages to go!
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Feedback from Lucid release
<MootBot> New Topic:  Feedback from Lucid release
<nisshh> what kind of feedback did we get?
<humphreybc> How do we think it went? What areas can we improve the most in?
<humphreybc> nisshh: Not a heap, to be honest. We got mainly positive comments on the blog articles about the release
<nisshh> humphreybc: consistency!
<humphreybc> I was hoping to see more reviews on Planet Ubuntu
<IlyaHaykinson> i think ppl are having trouble finding the manual
<nisshh> yea, didnt happen unfortunantly
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe somebody should have told slashdot
<IlyaHaykinson> the top referrers are expert user blogs
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah
<humphreybc> lemme find something
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: well, its not official
<nisshh> like on the ubuntu website official
<humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-ubuntu-manual-future-integration
<humphreybc> I think Jono, Mark etc are very interested in whether we can keep up the momentum and continue releasing quality products
<humphreybc> a lot of projects die after their first release
<IlyaHaykinson> yes, i always thought that the big test for us is not the first version, but the second
<semioticrobotic> agreed
<humphreybc> Of course, we won't. We won't just continue what we're doing, we'll make it better.
<thorwil> and then it will be the 3rd
<semioticrobotic> the sophomore release is any group's achilles heel
<humphreybc> Anyway, IlyaHaykinson, there are some ideas for better integration with Ubuntu to raise our profile a bit, and get more targeted readers
<nisshh> humphreybc: expand our horizons :)
<ChrisWoollard> What is a sophomore release?
<nisshh> a what?
<synergetic> ChrisWoollard: 2nd
<nisshh> oh, hehe
<IlyaHaykinson> nod. i'm not too concerned for now. i am sure that as we continue to deliver, we'll have a lot more opportunities open up to integrate closer.
<humphreybc> As a side note, anyone who has more ideas on ways to improve our visibility for our *target audience* - add them to that blueprint whiteboard or email me
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: pretty much. Jono and Mark are very excited to see what we have lined up for this cycle
<humphreybc> And if we prove ourselves for Maverick, I see no reason why we shouldn't become more tightly integrated with Ubuntu itself
<nisshh> exactly
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: totally agreed.
<humphreybc> What about Lucid feedback from a team point of view? Communication, meetings, organization, structure?
<ubuntujenkins> my parents like the manual
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we had issues with writers & editors in that we assigned things to people who didn't prove they could deliver.
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: so do mine but they then said: "so whats it for then?"
<thorwil> humphreybc: excellent communication, except for meetings that are too long ;)
<ubuntujenkins> we need more people to hang out in irc to help some times we are all asleep and there is no one to help
<IlyaHaykinson> this resulted in long delays as we waited for them to surface, and then a scramble to reassign the chapters.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: Right. Any ideas how we could get quality authors/editors with enough time?
<ChrisWoollard> Is there a list of people anywhere on the website detailing who is responsible for what?
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: my parents use ubuntu
<semioticrobotic> +1 IlyaHaykinson
<IlyaHaykinson> i recommend that in the future, we only assign non-critical parts to newbies, until they can show their dedication.
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: check the Contributors page on ubuntu-manual.org
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. make some commits.
<Red_HamsterX> Which channels, ubuntujenkins?
<nisshh> dont forget we dud start this project half way through through the last cycle
<Red_HamsterX> I like answering random questions.
<semioticrobotic> having come to the project a bit late, I struggled to understand precisely who was writing what, and who was active
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: #ubuntu-manual
<ChrisWoollard> Fair point. forgot about that
<humphreybc> Yes, the writing part of last cycle was a bit of a mess
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: yea, mine arent even computer literate...
<humphreybc> Hopefully we should be a bit better off this cycle considering we actually have a team in place now - whereas last cycle we had to build up our team WHILE trying to get a release out.
<humphreybc> Although I am certainly not happy with our infrastructure as it is, it can be a lot better, a lot easier
<godbyk> I'm sure we'll have some turnover in authors/editors/translators/etc., too.
<nisshh> yea, we have laid the groundwork
<humphreybc> I think the easier we make it for people to help, the more people will be interested in helping
<nisshh> this cycle will certainly be interesting
<c7p> humphreybc: +1
<humphreybc> One of the things I am interested in would be having some sort of web based editor
<nisshh> for latex?
<humphreybc> that's live, collaborative, stuff is stored on the web instead of using bzr so we don't have crazy merges
<humphreybc> nisshh: yes, the backend would be latex, but the frontend would be rich text
<ChrisWoollard> That sound tricky
<humphreybc> basically like etherpad, but if you highlighted something and hit bold, the backend would magically add in \textbf{text} around what you've highlighted
<humphreybc> very tricky, yes
<daker> great idea humphreybc
<humphreybc> But it would be an incredibly useful tool
<Red_HamsterX> What about a variant of a wiki engine, customized to output generic XML instead of XHTML?
<nisshh> it would also crap out the server if you did real-time html to latex
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: finding the right tools for that might be difficult; etherpad is compeltely open to anyone, while Google Docs on our domain is restricted to those with adminitrator-approved accounts
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't think we need realtime editing.
<humphreybc> Etherpad would be nice to fiddle with but I think it would be really messy to hack it to the way we want
<IlyaHaykinson> most of our editing and writing is spread over a large manual
<daker> IlyaHaykinson, +1
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: +1
<nisshh> humphreybc: also dont forget that for every app we create for the project, thats an extra app we have to constantly maintain
<humphreybc> nisshh: that's a good point
<humphreybc> I'm hoping that as we create apps, more people will use them from other projects and help us maintain them
<ChrisWoollard> Is that then distracting from the main manual
<IlyaHaykinson> plus, well, etherpad always exists if we need to use it on a one-off basis.
<daker> nisshh, that's why iam here
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: well, it's important to remember we don't just make manuals
<thorwil> humphreybc: such a tool would be awesome, but would need several dedicated developers and should happen outside
<nisshh> daker: yep
<IlyaHaykinson> i think developing the website is going to be a big enough project.
<humphreybc> right
<IlyaHaykinson> no need to complicate things with a really difficult editor.
<humphreybc> so some of the stuff we write for the website feedback widget could be used in our thingy
<ChrisWoollard> humphreybc: i don't disagree with that
<humphreybc> I'm not saying we need this editor asap
<nisshh> what a nightmare that would be!
<humphreybc> it's not even on the agenda
<humphreybc> it's just an idea i have that we should think about
<semioticrobotic> an easier way to edit files would certainly lower barriers to entry
<ChrisWoollard> Speaking of the agenda. Where are we?
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: totally, and that's one of our principles
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: feedback from lucid
<nisshh> gedit is easy enough i think
<humphreybc> okay
<Red_HamsterX> Simple web-based zvn engine?
<Red_HamsterX> svn*
<nisshh> its latex thats confusing people
<Red_HamsterX> As a starting point.
<humphreybc> so, I reckon we should work hard on translations (that's a strong point for us) and make it easier for translators
<semioticrobotic> nisshh: Gedit is easy, yes -- it's everything else (launchpad, bzr, etc.)
<humphreybc> And I have no idea how we're going to handle the translations for *two* manuals this cycle.
<nisshh> semioticrobotic: yea
<humphreybc> For Lucid 2nd edition, I would rather we take stuff OUT than add more content
<humphreybc> otherwise translations are going to never happen
<nisshh> humphreybc: why dont we just allow the translator in AFTER we have done ALL major edits
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: we can comment out some stuff for e2, but we did that during the superedit and made some pretty hearty cuts
<Red_HamsterX> Or even our own version-management thing, kinda similar to what we're doing for the next Quickshot iteration: users submit patches and someone has to approve them, applying LaTeX fixes at the same time.
<nisshh> so after writing freeze
<Red_HamsterX> All in a web interface.
<godbyk> Some recent feedback: http://shanefagan.com/2010/05/04/ubuntu-manual-review/ and http://www.mdke.org/?p=102
<ChrisWoollard> How long before we get the first batch of translations for e1 out?
<humphreybc> unfortunately, we just don't have enough time in a 6 month cycle to have 200 pages of content in enough languages
<humphreybc> So I think we'll have to do rolling releases of translations
<synergetic> nisshh: have people tried LyX for the ubuntu manual? how well does that work with any custom commands?
<humphreybc> as they're finished, they get released
<c7p> it took about 1 month and a week for as to translate the manual and review it
<c7p> us*
<humphreybc> There's the risk that a language won't be finished for, say, 10.04 until 10.10 is out, which would be pointless
<nisshh> synergetic: whats LyX?
<humphreybc> because by the time the language is done, the content will be obsolete
<synergetic> nisshh: a GUI LaTeX editor
<dutchie> synergetic: lyx is evil
<godbyk> synergetic: you have to set up a special file to get lyx to work with our stuff -- and I'm not sure if we can get it to do everything we need in a GUI/WYSIWYM way.
<humphreybc> c7p: really, that short amount of time? you guys must have worked hard!
<raffaele> I think thatI think that we should not add too much material because the translations already lagging behind will be charged more.
<nisshh> synergetic: yea, i remember seeing a few listed in software center
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, once again, let's shelve format discussions for now.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: +1
<dutchie> IlyaHaykinson: we'll have to takle them at some point
<IlyaHaykinson> yes; can be discussed offline
<synergetic> dutchie: i completely agree with you - but I do all my coursework in LaTeX and a large number of my fellow students prefer LyX to any other editor. These fellow students tend to be ones needing to use LaTeX but afraid of non-GUI interfaces
<c7p> humphreybc: yeah :) but it worth it
<humphreybc> alright
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Research!
<MootBot> New Topic:  Research!
<nisshh> wow, ok i think its next topic time!
<humphreybc> We need to figure out what we actually need to have in our manual
<humphreybc> what the most important parts are, what parts no one ever needs
<nisshh> humphreybc: bit late isnt it?
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, so here's what i think on this
<nisshh> for lucid anyway
<IlyaHaykinson> a) we need qualitative research
<IlyaHaykinson> meaning interviews with users
<humphreybc> nisshh: for lucid, yeah
<IlyaHaykinson> talking with people, observing them using it
<IlyaHaykinson> usability studies, focus groups etc.
<IlyaHaykinson> in the technical writing field these are called "audience analysis" and "task analysis" apparently
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: diary studies could be useful, too
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: yes
<humphreybc> Can we work with the LoCo and community councils to devise a "Research day" or something, where teams hold events around the world and bring their parents/siblings/etc along to user test Ubuntu and our manual?
<IlyaHaykinson> nono
<IlyaHaykinson> we need mostly professionals to run these
<IlyaHaykinson> and we need fairly few people
<nisshh> humphreybc: thats pretty large scale
<Red_HamsterX> Suggestion: regular Google searches for blogs that reference the manual, to see what sorts of criticisms are being leveled against it.
<IlyaHaykinson> as long as they're screened correctly
<IlyaHaykinson> otherwise we end up leading the user, or asking loaded questions etc
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: I have google alerts for that. it emails me each day with a list of sites mentioning our manual.
<IlyaHaykinson> so at any rate, i'm going to take the lead on research for now, and will report on some ideas in the next week
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: i agree
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: sounds great!
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yep, good. nisshh, are you interested to help Ilya where he needs it?
<IlyaHaykinson> the general outline is a) do qualitative research, b) do some quantitative (surveys) afterwards.
<nisshh> sure
<nisshh> can do that
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> That's great :)
<IlyaHaykinson> c) produce a persona or multiple personas
<IlyaHaykinson> and d) create a set of recommendations for our content
<ChrisWoollard> Is it worth putting an article about it on Linuxtoday.com or something like that?
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: shoot me an email somtime about how you do this and ill try and pick it up
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: nod, will do.
<nisshh> cool
<IlyaHaykinson> in general, i estimate we will need 2 months to complete this.
<synergetic> humphreybc: many have already done install days and would already know some key areas that should be focussed on. what about creating an ideastorm with topics?
<IlyaHaykinson> at the very least.
<IlyaHaykinson> which should be ok, because we won't have maverick taking shape until then anyways
<nisshh> easy peasy!
<humphreybc> synergetic: Good idea. The problem is getting the word out to the right people about such a thing
<humphreybc> I'm hoping the learning team can help us here
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: that sounds like a plan to me
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i'll reach out to the learning team then
<nisshh> humphreybc: the learning team are always on UF
<synergetic> humphreybc: word of mouth. ubuntu planet, jono, have people pass it to other people. there's no one place, really, aside from the ubuntu homepage
<humphreybc> synergetic: yep, I'm going to harp at Jono to give us some time on his blog
<nisshh> humphreybc: which will go through planet ubuntu
<humphreybc> and i think I'll be an ubuntu member soon (yay!) so i'll be able to post on the planet
<humphreybc> Expect Planet Ubuntu to be filled with UMP posts in a few weeks!
<nisshh> aw cool
<humphreybc> Okay
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Cleaning up instructions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Cleaning up instructions
<ScottK> Please don't over do it.
<nisshh> hehe'
<humphreybc> Basically, the stuff on our site at the moment is a bit complicated and daunting
<godbyk> ScottK: Sick of us yet? ;-)
<c7p> yeah
<humphreybc> So, I'll work on simplifying it somewhat. Unfortunately I have exams for Uni coming up next month, and I'll have to start studying for them as soon as I get back from Belgium
<ChrisWoollard> Complicated. I thought it was just lacking.
<ScottK> Not yet, although a number of things would be easier for the project as a whole if this weren't separate from ubuntu-doc.
<humphreybc> Which means I'll be MIA until the second half of June
<humphreybc> ScottK: once again, feel free to talk with them. Trust me, I've tried!
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> now, this is where stuff gets freaky
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Crazy content management idea
<MootBot> New Topic:  Crazy content management idea
<c7p> i think the "Become Author" on the site is very misleading
<humphreybc> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg/4585064Q
<godbyk> c7p: in what way?
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg/4585064Q
<humphreybc> what!
<humphreybc> bloody copy and paste
<humphreybc> sorry
<humphreybc> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg
<nisshh> c7p: it should be apply to become a trainee author or something
<humphreybc> second link everyone
<ubuntujenkins> i don't like the work trainee make them sound like they are doing the tea and coffie
<nisshh> hehe, i like the "big f off content pool"
<c7p> godbyk, nishh on that section you learn about only about latex compilation and nothing more. there it ends the page!
<nisshh> c7p: what are you saying it should include?
<godbyk> c7p: ah, right.  yes, we need to add instructions for editing files, committing code, and of courser writing and whatnot.
<humphreybc> So this is something the learning team would like to do
<nisshh> ah ok!
<c7p> godbyk: exactly
<humphreybc> And it's something we're working towards
<ChrisWoollard> I think if you want to be an auther. you should prove yourself in other areas firts
<humphreybc> getting all of our content in one area, and selectively building material into different formats
<humphreybc> from the same stuf
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: yeah, that would be nice. We should make "being an author" something that people want to aim for?
<Red_HamsterX> I have to play for the docs team here: wouldn't it make sense to try to merge our content pool into theirs as much as possible?
<nisshh> what? kind of like becoming a MOTU?
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: yes, it would
<ChrisWoollard> Also not everybody is cut out for writing.
<humphreybc> This idea wouldn't work without their help, and the learning team
<nisshh> Red_HamsterX: alot of the online docs a seriously outdated
<humphreybc> and a heap of other teams
<nisshh> are
<semioticrobotic> Red_HamsterX: +!
<semioticrobotic> er, +1 even
<humphreybc> Of course, the docs team would have to meet our quality standards :)
<semioticrobotic> well, yes, outdated -- but our fresh crop of writers and editors would infuse a bit more life into them
<humphreybc> No tutorials on "how to illegally install M$ fonts" for example
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: i learnt how to do it in two weeks! talk about a crash course in being an author!
<Red_HamsterX> nisshh, yes, they are. But if their content were repurposed, as a knowedge base of information, it would greatly add to our legitimacy.
<Red_HamsterX> They hold and maintain the content and we publish it for the users.
<nisshh> Red_HamsterX: true yea, i agree with that
<nisshh> next topic?
<Red_HamsterX> Actually, that may well be one of the things Ubuntu sorely needs: a centralized, structured knowledge base.
<semioticrobotic> the docs team must also work on areas outside our target user base
<semioticrobotic> i.e., advanced stuff, too
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: Exactly. At the moment, learning material is spread out all over the place
<humphreybc> it's a real shit show
<semioticrobotic> yes, it definitely does
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, of course. But then our server manual, or some othe rproject, could harvest whatever they generate.
<nisshh> yea
<semioticrobotic> so this meeting humphreybc has called is integral
<humphreybc> What we're going to have to do is pitch the idea to the docs team, see how it goes. I don't hold high hopes for them wanting to help, to be completely honest.
<semioticrobotic> eventually, I see a division of labor that' something like: UMP does beginner-level documentation, Docs Team builds on that and does advanced stuff, and Learning project takes that stuff and spins it into booklets, leaflets, and training seminars
 * IlyaHaykinson is dropping off, will review irc logs later.
<Red_HamsterX> I don't see them not saying "we accept patches".
<humphreybc> And if they don't want to work with us, well, that's their problem. I'm sorry but we're here to try and make Ubuntu documentation rock.
<Red_HamsterX> Which is probably enough of an in.
<dutchie> humphreybc: you could always try being nice to the docs team ;)
<godbyk> see ya, IlyaHaykinson
<semioticrobotic> bye IlyaHaykinson
 * nisshh has to go soon too, got college in an hour and a half
<humphreybc> okay, we should move on
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Lucid translated releases
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid translated releases
<humphreybc> godbyk?
<godbyk> humphreybc?
<humphreybc> translated releases
<humphreybc> this is your area of the project :P
<godbyk> aha.
<godbyk> So for the translated versions of the manual, I think the releases should work in a similar fashion to the original English version.
<godbyk> I think that once the translations have been completed and the screenshots have been taken, an editor should be appointed for each translation.
<raffaele> Excuse the interruption, but where I can see the logs after the debate?
<humphreybc> raffaele: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<raffaele> ok, thank you
<godbyk> The editor will work with her translation team to ensure that everything is up to snuff and looks good and will then approve the release.
<godbyk> Once the release has been approved, we'll upload it to the site, lulu.com for printed copies, and let humphreybc do his marketing thing.
<humphreybc> godbyk, yes, that's the best way to do it. The problem could be finding an editor for each language - here's another reason why we need better communication with the translators
<godbyk> Any objections or comments?
<nisshh> right, i need to go, i need atleast 30 mins sleep before college today
<nisshh> cyas later'
<humphreybc> okay nisshh :)
<godbyk> See ya, nisshh
<humphreybc> thanks for coming!
<nisshh> np cya!
<semioticrobotic> bye nisshh
<c7p> cya nishhh
<semioticrobotic> (I'll need to leave in about 10 minutes, too.)
<humphreybc> okay
<c7p> i think the UMP should have the list of all LoCO teams and their forums
<godbyk> Ideally the editors will be folks who are fluent in that language, don't mind diving into a bit of latex, but that haven't been the primary translator.
<c7p> for the communication
<godbyk> (It's hard to edit your own words.)
<humphreybc> c7p: yeah, maybe we can work with the loco directory project or something
<humphreybc> godbyk sure
<ChrisWoollard> Improve the docs on how to be and editor.
<godbyk> We should probably bring back our bug form (or something similar) for the translation teams to receive bug notices in their translations.
<humphreybc> Okay, I think the last couple of topics are moot now - we know what we are planning for Maverick, and we can't exactly decide on specific things for Lucid 2nd edition just yet
<humphreybc> dutchie: how's that bug form going?
<c7p> godbyk: good idea
<dutchie> humphreybc: launchpad is a pain
<dutchie> actually, no, oauth is a pain
<humphreybc> heh
<semioticrobotic> where do bug reports fall in the giant crazy workflow schematic?
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: they're like rain - they fall everywhere and create gigantic puddles
<humphreybc> and erode our infrastructure :P
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: ha!  well, that's empirically true, but ...
<semioticrobotic> one sec
<humphreybc> alright, let's wrap this up! next meeting time?
<humphreybc> We can move half of this stuff to the list for further discussion
<godbyk> We should probably have meetings a bit more frequently so we can keep them shorter.
<ChrisWoollard> Does that mean that eventually half the cliff falls into the sea
<humphreybc> weekly meetings?
<daker> humphreybc, yes
<c7p> humphreybc why not
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: probably, unless we create a gutter system
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> what time suits?
<humphreybc> 2000?
<semioticrobotic> sorry ... anyway, yes, bug reports: they fall all over the place, but we should find an official space for them in thw rokflow
<ubuntujenkins> please
<godbyk> Shall we go back to our original Saturday time slot?
<ubuntujenkins> to the time
<c7p> it works for me
<ChrisWoollard> 20:00 is good for me
<humphreybc> we appear to have a better turnout at this meeting than we did on the weekends
<daker> godbyk, +1
<humphreybc> Saturday can work, yes
<ubuntujenkins> saturady is better
<humphreybc> Weekly meetings, every Saturday at 2000 from now on
<semioticrobotic> my schedule is so chaotic that any day is as good as another
<humphreybc> groovy
<ChrisWoollard> saturday is also good
<c7p> ok saturday then :)
<humphreybc> well thanks for coming guys! I'm going to get up and grab some breakfast, then i'll start firing off mail to the list
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:38.
<godbyk> If anyone has any other notes they'd like to make, the pad's here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
<semioticrobotic> looking forward to more discussion, humphreybc
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: me too. This cycle is going to rock.
<humphreybc> But we have to keep our heads in the game and maintain focus, we're pushing the limit of what we can achieve in a short amount of time!
<dutchie> i wasn't paying attention
<dutchie> poke me if i should have been
<humphreybc> But that's good, it's better to be busy working on exciting new stuff and be proud when you finish it, rather than being bored fartless in a stagnant project, right?
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: it will indeed.  but what you say is true: the worst thing we can do is let our enthusiasm get the better of us and overextend ourselves
<humphreybc> dutchie: you probably should have been paying attention :P
<dutchie> :P
<ubuntujenkins> don't worry dutchie I was doing coursework
<ubuntujenkins> did i miss much
<semioticrobotic> alright friends...I'm off
<semioticrobotic> o/
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: Indeed. I think we have a very strong team with great people, I'm confident we can do it. We'll need the community's support though, and that's something we haven't had a heap of last cycle. But i'll work on that.
<synergetic> night!
<c7p> night
<ubuntujenkins> night semioticrobotic
<humphreybc> night Bryan!
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc: and that's exactly why I think UDS is going to be a watershed moment for the project
<semioticrobotic> I wish you the best of luck in belgium
<humphreybc> semioticrobotic: totally. Thankyou!
<semioticrobotic> take care ... all of you!
<humphreybc> Also, everyone, have a look at the sessions that are listed and try to remote participate if you can
 * semioticrobotic waves
<humphreybc> the best place to look would probably be the list that i'm going to
<ubuntujenkins> link please
<humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~humphreybc
<humphreybc> I'm going to all the documentation related ones
 * ubuntujenkins will try but i have a busy month at the moment
<humphreybc> the full list is quite long
<humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-m
 * dutchie redirects people back to #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> Yes, I also have a very busy month, next month too. I have to do more uni work
<humphreybc> Good meeting team! As you were ;)
<bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: poke =)
<Technoviking> sorry on the phone
<jdong> yay!
<bodhi_zazen> NP, we can wait Technoviking
<jdong> we have quorum then :)
<Technoviking> off now
<bodhi_zazen> Shall we start ?
<jdong> sure
<bapoumba> ok
<bodhi_zazen> do we wish to use mootbot ?
<bodhi_zazen> makes it a bit easier to read the irc logs =)
<bapoumba> +1
<jdong> no objection here!
<bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:05. The chair is bodhi_zazen.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bodhi_zazen> {TOPIC} UF Games section
<MootBot> New Topic: {TOPIC} UF Games section
<bapoumba> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<bodhi_zazen> AI has made some excellent suggestions
<bodhi_zazen> I think for the most part we can adapt these changes, but I am not sure if UG or matthew prefer to make such changes
<bodhi_zazen> If not, I would be willing to make the changes, although I would need to consult with AI again as I do not recall the specifics
<Technoviking> I'm fine with AI suggestions
<jdong> I don't recall if UG made an opinion on the issue yet
<jdong> but I'm also fine with AI's suggestions
<bodhi_zazen> No, not yet
<jdong> but shoot an email off to the list for any 11th hour objections
<Technoviking> useless people think a Wine and Emulator prefix tag would work as well
<bodhi_zazen> I do not recall UG or matthew expressing an opinion either way
<bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: I am willing to go with what AI feels is best, he seems quite versed with the issues
<bodhi_zazen> Personally I do not game much so I do not have strong feelings either way
<bapoumba> same here
<jdong> I trust in AI's judgement given his long track record in managing the gaming section
<bapoumba> Ai knows what would suit the games category best
<bodhi_zazen> How about if we post on the ML asking for UG and matthew to comment ?
<bapoumba> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<jdong> +1
<jdong> a little bit of a tangent point....
<bodhi_zazen> [AGREED] Post on ML as above ^^
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Post on ML as above ^^
<jdong> I have slight concerns/worries with how we're managing action items?
<bodhi_zazen> Calvin Smith, you here ?
<bodhi_zazen> how so jdong ?
<jdong> do we have a database of them to see if we carried through?
<jdong> e.g. are we forgetting to do things we say we'll do?
<bodhi_zazen> No
<bodhi_zazen> Well, I hope that is how Mootbot can help
<jdong> that's what made me think of this
<bodhi_zazen> Anyone willing to post to the ML now ?
<jdong> I like how the Tech Board and DMB have their ACTION item reviews every meeting
<bodhi_zazen> Calvin / Toxic Mite going twice
<bodhi_zazen> jdong: we can do that, I would suggest using our agenda page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<bodhi_zazen> ?
<jdong> bodhi_zazen: big +1
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, I can post, but not now
<jdong> at the end of the meeting add all action items to the next agenda.
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] - Calvin Smith - KiwiNZ's attitude to things is becoming worrying..
<MootBot> New Topic:  - Calvin Smith - KiwiNZ's attitude to things is becoming worrying..
<bodhi_zazen> in the absence of Calvin I suggest we table this item
<bapoumba> +1
<bapoumba> he needs to show up
<bodhi_zazen> any other comments ?
<bapoumba> nope
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] - bapoumba New Staff Process
<MootBot> New Topic:  - bapoumba New Staff Process
<bodhi_zazen> bapoumba: you're up =)
<bapoumba> We have been extensively discussing this point on the FC ml
<bapoumba> we would like to document the process
<bapoumba> we came up with guidelines we can post in FFH for ex
<bapoumba> do you want them here ?
<bodhi_zazen> your guidelines / suggestions were excellent bapoumba , I think you notified the other staff as well, on the forums if I recall.
<bapoumba> yes, in the Staff area
<jdong> do we have a public link to it for the posterity of the meeting logs?
<bapoumba> err, no :)
<bodhi_zazen> No jdong , but we can post a link anyways =)
<jdong> hehe okay :)
<jdong> works for me ;-)
<bapoumba> basically bodhi_zazen and I would take over this project
<bodhi_zazen> looking
<bapoumba> matthew will mentor us
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1463206
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1463206
<jdong> I've watched over the discussions on the list and am happy with what I saw
<bapoumba> all the rest has already been said in several threads in FFH
<bapoumba> quite some time ago
<bapoumba> where can I upload the text ? Cannot recall
<bodhi_zazen> Any further comments, if I recall we were just wanting to make people outside of the FC aware of the changes
<bodhi_zazen> upload what text bapoumba ?
<bapoumba> we'll make it public on the forums if everyone agrees
<bapoumba> the Staff process
<bapoumba> pastebin or something ?
<bodhi_zazen> +1 pastebin
<drubin> o/ question/comment plz
<bodhi_zazen> sec ...
<bodhi_zazen> go drubin
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK] http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/TDDRPTqN
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/TDDRPTqN
<drubin> bodhi_zazen bapoumba: I rather like the idea of staffing process to be vague... it means there aren't a fixed set of requirements that people try and work towards but rather good people get the roles
<bodhi_zazen> LOL
<bapoumba> http://pastebin.com/zQ8cp11j
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pastebin.com/zQ8cp11j
<drubin> I do think that not knowing is what made the great people show up from the average people
<bapoumba> does that work on your end ?
<bodhi_zazen> I think posting some guidelines is "OK" , we will leave squiggle room =)
<bapoumba> drubin, we often have questions about it
<bodhi_zazen> yes bapoumba , but you were too slow =)
<jdong> drubin: it is interesting to hear someone advocating the opacity. We've traditionally received a lot of complaints about the black box nature
<drubin> bodhi_zazen: That list is purse "squiggle" room. it was pretty much FC makes dession.
<jdong> drubin: I don't think the new process is a list of requirements for how to be a staff member though.
<drubin> either way I am going to keep quiet now hehe
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, I'm always slow :)
<jdong> no, please feel free to comment!
<bodhi_zazen> I think a FAQ or sticky is in order as we receive enough questions about the topic
<drubin> jdong: Yes but I hadn't seen the link before
<drubin> Can I add something to the agenda before the end of the meeting since I am here and talking
<bodhi_zazen> If we have time drubin
<bodhi_zazen> Any other comments on the "New Staff Process" ?
<jdong> drubin: even if the procedure is "the FC looks at everyone case-by-case", we'd like to say that formally. Right now the procedure seems to be "Look under your seat for your golden ticket!"
<bodhi_zazen> I am not sure we need to take action ...
<jdong> formal documentation is good :)
<bodhi_zazen> LeoArias poke =)
<elopio> I'm Leo Arias :)
<elopio> hello
<bodhi_zazen> Excellent !
<bodhi_zazen> TY for coming
<bapoumba> hello elopio
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Central America forum
<MootBot> New Topic:  Central America forum
<elopio> thanks to you.
<elopio> we'll our idea is to use only one forum for all central american locos.
<bodhi_zazen> I would be OK with that
<elopio> currently we have some forums in ubuntuforums.org, and forums in the websites of the locos.
<jdong> ah
<bodhi_zazen> Unless there is a LOCO that needs a specific forum (ie high traffic)
<bapoumba> elopio, do all the LoCo admins agree ?
<elopio> we decided to use ubuntuforums in a meeting last year.
<jdong> is "we" a unanimous (err bapoumba just mentioned that)
<elopio> I sent an email to all ubuntuforums and to the mailing list.
<elopio> bapoumba, jdong, only Honduras wants to keep the forum
<bapoumba> elopio, their own you mean ?
<elopio> so, we have http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=281 http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=262 and http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=374
<jdong> elopio: ok, so of the forums that wish to merge, their owners have all expressed agreement, correct?
<elopio> those are Costa Rica, PanamÃ¡ and El Salvador, and should be closed. Or I don't know what's the procedure.
<elopio> bapoumba, I mean that Honduras ( http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=369 ) has to be kept
<jdong> (by owners, I mean leadership team and consistutents)
<bodhi_zazen> elopio: I suggest you post a sticky / notice in each of those forums and allow public comment X 1 month -> then we can merge if there are no major objections ?
<bapoumba> would not it be strange that only Honduras keep their own forums ?
<bodhi_zazen> depends on the size / volume of traffic and other issues I suppose
<elopio> jdong, all the loco leaders are in the ubuntu-centroamerica launchpad team
<jdong> bapoumba: if it's because the other locos wanted to merge, but Hondoras did not wish to do so, I don't feel it's strange.
<elopio> I posted there: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-centroamerica/msg00075.html
<bapoumba> I suggest elopio talks with Joe
<elopio> everyone, but Honduras agreed on the merge.
<jdong> bapoumba: my only concern is after the fact, members of the merged communities would be upset
<elopio> ok, wait a second so I can answer all your questions... :)
<jdong> which bodhi's suggestion addresses
<bapoumba> jdong, yes
<bapoumba> he talks with Joe, and then we talk again
<elopio> bodhi_zazen, I posted on the forums two weeks ago
<bodhi_zazen> linky elopio ?
<jdong> are there any objections by users on any of those forum topics?
<elopio> and it's almost the last post in all the forums :) They are abandoned, that's why we want to join efforts.
<elopio> bodhi_zazen, links comming...
<bodhi_zazen> I am just suggesting *some* public comment time, otherwise people complain it changed without notice ...
<elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460217
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460217
<elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460213
<Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: +1
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460213
<elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460211
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460211
<elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460208
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460208
<elopio> bodhi_zazen, I understand. But I would be bad to have to wait even more.
<bodhi_zazen> Can you sticky those ? And remove the other stickies for the moment ?
<elopio> bodhi_zazen, can I stick a post if I'm not the admin?
<bodhi_zazen> It certainly appears you have done the footwork , and I appreciate that
<bodhi_zazen> I think so , the LoCo mods should be able to, if no, PM an admin =)
<forumsmatthew> sorry I'm so late--I had to pick up the kids from school
<dmizer> bodhi_zazen ... looking at the forum activity in the ca locos, it doesn't look like they need to be stickied ;)
<elopio> Ok, I'll try to make them sticky.
<elopio> the other problem is that those forums where open a long time ago. I'm from costa rica, and I don't know where to find the guy that opened our forum. It's missing in action.
<bodhi_zazen> I would +1 a commentary period or merging the forms , either way is "OK" with me
<elopio> bodhi_zazen, would you agree on a week?
<elopio> the message has been there for two weeks already.
<elopio> and we have decided this a year ago :D
<jdong> I'd +1 a commentary period and then merging
<elopio> it's about time to take action.
<jdong> well two weeks vs 1 year is a big difference
<jdong> action WILL be taken, there's no need to be too hasty.
<elopio> jaja, ok ok.
<elopio> 2 weeks?
<jdong> sounds reasonable to me
<Technoviking> sometime before the next FC meeting for sure
<bodhi_zazen> Any other comments ?
<elopio> great. And whom should I contact to open the new forum and close the other 3?
<bapoumba> joeb
<forumsmatthew> Okay, I just got caught up. I think a commentary period and merge sounds good +1
<bodhi_zazen> [ACTION] Merge central america forums
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Merge central america forums
 * elopio takes note of joeb
<elopio> cool. Thanks! :)
<bapoumba> elopio, joeb4 something :)
<drubin> elopio: Joeb454
<Technoviking> I would like to ping the LC to keep them in the loop on this
<bapoumba> thanks drubin !
<bodhi_zazen> cchhrriiss121212 poke !
<bapoumba> AutoStatic ping
<bodhi_zazen> BslBryan ping
<elopio> what's the LC Technoviking?
<Technoviking> elopio: Loco Council
<bodhi_zazen> drubin: mentioned a potential add on agenda item if there is time ...
<drubin> bodhi_zazen: it is on there
<elopio> Technoviking, sure, that would be nice. I'll add it to the agenda for their next meeting.
<Technoviking> elopio: A quick note to there mailing list would probably do
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Multimedia Production Name Change
<MootBot> New Topic:  Multimedia Production Name Change
<bodhi_zazen> I think this would need to be discussed further
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1430283
<MootBot> LINK received: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1430283
<bapoumba> without them here, we should wait
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<elopio> that sound's better. No meeting. Well, I'm leaving. Thanks for your time and support. Good luck
<forumsmatthew> +1
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional comments ?
<jdong> +1, no additional comments here
<bodhi_zazen> bapoumba: It at least is easy to find in the logs if I add it as a [TOPIC]
<forumsmatthew> I want to comment briefly on one thing that I missed by being late
<forumsmatthew> it is quick
<bapoumba> please :)
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] LoCo moderator suggestions.
<MootBot> New Topic:  LoCo moderator suggestions.
<forumsmatthew> I am in favor of the new staff process we have discussed on the list
<forumsmatthew> ...just wanted to be on the record
<forumsmatthew> :)
<bapoumba> forumsmatthew, we have not voted
<bapoumba> maybe we should ?
<bapoumba> +1 ^^
<forumsmatthew> +1
<bodhi_zazen> I suggest we table the LoCo mod suggestions as well ?
<bodhi_zazen> then vote on new staff process ?
<bapoumba> okay
<forumsmatthew> bodhi_zazen, agreed
<bodhi_zazen> Any other comments on LOCO mods ?
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Adopt New Staff Process
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Adopt New Staff Process.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<bapoumba> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bapoumba. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<forumsmatthew> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from forumsmatthew. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<bapoumba> ping jdong :p
<bodhi_zazen> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
 * bodhi_zazen does not feel comfortable voting for self ;P
<bapoumba> me neither but meh
<jdong> bapoumba: sorry
<jdong> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jdong. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<bodhi_zazen> + 1 to bapoumba =)
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional issues , late additions to the agenda ?
<bapoumba> drubin ?
<elopio> me again :)
<bodhi_zazen> OK elopio =)
<drubin> bapoumba: My topic?
<drubin> elopio: can go first
<bodhi_zazen> How about drubin , then elopio ?
<bapoumba> drubin, yup, we are done with the Agenda
<elopio> I can't mark the posts as sticky. I could probably talk to the admins of panamÃ¡ and el salvador. But the costa rican one is going to be imposible.
<bodhi_zazen> drubin: asked earlier
<elopio> just to let you know...
<bapoumba> elopio, please report them
<bodhi_zazen> elopio: if you send me a PM on the forums, w/ a link to posts, I will do it
<bapoumba> with a note
<dmizer> elopio: send me a pm in the forums and i will sticky them.
<drubin> I just wanted to bring it to your attention that the sticky issue is getting well very sticky
<elopio> bodhi_zazen, cool
<elopio> will do it.
<bodhi_zazen> TY
<drubin> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48 has 6 stickies
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48 has 6 stickies
<elopio> is you user bodhi_zazen too?
<bodhi_zazen> elopio: bodhi.zazen
 * drubin is confused and waits
 * elopio goes to send pms
<bodhi_zazen> drubin: yep, we have informally reviewed some stickies
<bodhi_zazen> anyone in particular you think should be removed ?
<bapoumba> drubin, we go down the stickies from time to time
<drubin> bodhi_zazen: Just wanted to suggest please please merging them.
<bodhi_zazen> PM me links and I will discuss w/ staff
<drubin> No worries. not going to push any thing just please stop making stickies hehe
<bodhi_zazen> Sounds reasonable drubin
 * forumsmatthew goes to make a sticky about too many stickies /joke
<bodhi_zazen> I have 2 stickies in the works, but will remove 1 ...
<bodhi_zazen> They are 4 the security section, HIDS and NIDS
<bodhi_zazen> I have posted for comments / review by from staff, and am currently procrastinating ...
<drubin> bodhi_zazen: Not a big deal and I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't have to be here any way
<bodhi_zazen> Actually I have worked on making (openvz) templates for Ubuntu 10.04 , lol
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, it's foreign language to me :)
<bodhi_zazen> http://download.openvz.org/template/precreated/contrib/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://download.openvz.org/template/precreated/contrib/
<bodhi_zazen> toys bapoumba , VPS
<bodhi_zazen> end meeting then ?
<bodhi_zazen> thank you all for coming
<forumsmatthew> thank you all!
 * dmizer waves
<bapoumba> Thanks
 * bapoumba gets uo in less than 5 hours
<jdong> awesome
<jdong> sounds like my schedule these days
<jdong> yay end of term hell!
<forumsmatthew> I just finished my last project. :)
<jdong> awesome!
 * jdong is jealous
<bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:54.
<bodhi_zazen> new amp forumsmatthew ?
<forumsmatthew> I wish...classes
<forumsmatthew> and a revision of The Official Ubuntu Book
<forumsmatthew> and some videos
<forumsmatthew> and...more
<forumsmatthew> April nearly killed me
<jdong> wow
<forumsmatthew> I did do a retube and bias of the amp you saw in the picture...
<bodhi_zazen> sweet forumsmatthew
<dmizer> forumsmatthew: it sounds beautiful.
<forumsmatthew> thank you!
<bodhi_zazen> I am considering posting a video of my girls playing Violin, assuming the staff is no bored w/ family pic
<forumsmatthew> I love family pics
 * bodhi_zazen is a proud father
<bapoumba> +1
<bapoumba> Night everyone!
<bodhi_zazen> night bapoumba
<forumsmatthew> I have to run as well. Bye, all!!
<bodhi_zazen> Me as well ...
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-05-07
<bodhi_zazen> drubin: I just can not stop making stickies
<bodhi_zazen> there are 3 more now
<drubin> hehe
<asdfboi> did I miss the meeting?
<asdfboi> :'(
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-05-08
<tsimpson> jussi nhandler Pici topyli, anyone home?
<topyli> tsimpson, i'm around
<jussi> no
<jussi> :P
<tsimpson> we have nothing on the agenda, but I was thinking about if we need 2 meetings a month or not?
<topyli> maybe we can keep the two meetings but semi-automatically cancel if there are no items
<czajkowski> thats worse
<czajkowski> either have one, or two but don't just cancel one on a whim when you don't need it
<topyli> it's not a whim, you can check the agenda and see if there's anything or not
<tsimpson> jussi: any thoughts?
<jussi> I say keep the 2 meetings, if theres nothing on the agenda, we turn up, say hi and go.
<jussi> czajkowski: what would you do in a case like this?
<jussi> I guess we need to turn up and ask if anyone has any last minute items
<jussi> but apart from that...
<topyli> it's not a problem to show up, it's a recurring event in my calendar so the time is booked anyway :)
<czajkowski> jussi: just seems pointless.
<czajkowski> I already get a reminder mail, now there would be 2. seems like a lot of effort. do you have agenda for two meetings a month
<czajkowski> jussi: though maybe a meeting not on a saturday may get more non IRCC folks in here
<jussi> czajkowski: i think so. this is irc, often things cannot wait 4 weeks.
<tsimpson> czajkowski: we already have 2 meetings a month
<jussi> on different days
<czajkowski> fair enough.
<jussi> perhaps we should consider one on a weekday though?
<czajkowski> that might be nice, I'm only here as not gone out
<topyli> moving the meetings would require another scheduling party though
<czajkowski> how difficult is it to schedule a meeting...
<topyli> i can't remember how it was when we decided on the current times, which probably means it wasn't particulary painful :)
 * txwikinger arrives.. sorry for tardiness
<topyli> i say let's talk about this before the next meeting and decide then
<tsimpson> probably something we can move to the mailing list
<topyli> aye
<txwikinger> sounds good
<topyli> who wants to send the mail? a combined "non-meeting minutes" and this issue
<topyli> i can do it tomorrow if no-one's more eager to :)
<tsimpson> topyli: sure :)
<topyli> ok. i'll add it to the agenda
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-05-09
<halvors> Hi! i have created a wiki page, signed Ubuntu Code of Conduct, added me to new members for next meeting list. Is the some more i need to do?
<halvors> For be an Ubuntu member
<nigelbabu> halvors: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<halvors> How will i be notified when i have been cinfirmed as a member of Ubuntu?
<drubin> halvors: You need to be at the meeting
<halvors> is there some meeting in norway?
<halvors> Will i need to take a plane to london or?
<joaopinto> halvors, irc meeting
<halvors> ok, when is it?
<halvors> here in this room or?
<halvors> ???
<hyperair> yes, this i the place.
<halvors> But when?
<halvors> When is the next meeting?
<hyperair> i dunno? but you need to go through an interview here.
<hyperair> !member
<ubottu> Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
<drubin> halvors: It depends through which board you are applying
<halvors> Europe bord
<halvors> board
<halvors> sry
<drubin> halvors: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA You already put your name down, the wiki says "first tuesday of every month"
<drubin> halvors: Does that clear every thing up?
<halvors> yes
<halvors> But it is so far away :(
<drubin> halvors: You could always apply with any of the other regional boards but the times might not suite you.
<halvors> ok
<halvors> Sorry, i mean it is so long time until
<halvors> next meeting
<drubin> halvors: yes I know. I was saying you can see when the other regional boards are having theirs. You don't *need* to attend your own region.
<halvors> The next meeting is scheduled for 11-May-2010,  10:00 UTC and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net.
<halvors> it is am or pm
<halvors> ?
<halvors> ???
<nigelbabu> halvors: its 24-hour clock, so it would be am
<nigelbabu> halvors: /ws 23
<halvors> ok
<halvors> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-05-02
<mdeslaur> yellow
<jjohansen> \o
<jjohansen> green
<kees> orange you glad we have a meeting?
<jdstrand> o/
 * sbeattie groans hello
<jdstrand> ok, sorry for the slight delay-- I was distracted by something
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:05. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of any previous action items
<jdstrand> we don't have any explicit action items from last week
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> last week I was on triage and I went through a lot of old bugs. the work isn't done, but things are somewhat better
<jdstrand> I've started a script to help me see what is going on with ubuntu-security bugs, so hopefully it will be easier to see trends, etc going forward
<jdstrand> I may continue some of that work this week, if I have time
<kees> nice; I skimmed a bit of that code. cool stuff
<jdstrand> thanks! it's pretty rough atm
<jdstrand> but hopefully it'll turn into something useful
<jdstrand> as next week is UDS, we need to discuss our blueprints and get them into LP
<jdstrand> since this is my first time working on all that stuff, and there is a lot to do, that is my focus for this week
<jdstrand> I also seem to have been signed up for a 4-6 hours manager training session tomorrow
<jdstrand> (along with a bunch of others)
<jdstrand> so, I guess I will be doing that too :P
<jdstrand> I am also on community this week
<jdstrand> that's it from me. kees, you're up
<kees> jdstrand: I'm happy to continue to help with the blueprints. I already added our roundtables to the schedule
<jdstrand> kees: thanks-- I appreciate that. I'm going to be picking your brain this week to be sure :)
<jdstrand> kees: and leaning on you :)
 * jdstrand hugs kees
<kees> I spent some time getting apparmor into shape for Debian. translations have started to trickle in, and I've got a bunch of things to upstream too.
<kees> I'm going to be at the canonical summit, so my week consists basically of today since I'll be flying tue and wed
<kees> I'd try to get some useful work in between the flights and jet lag :)
<kees> *I'll
 * jdstrand makes note to pick kees' brain *today*
<kees> I may also relocate my patch pilot to today (it's scheduled for thursday) since I doubt I'll have much time to focus then.
<kees> owch, netsplit. I think we're all still here?
<jdstrand> ah jeez
<jdstrand> I am
 * jdstrand is also patch piloting this week
<kees> I'm still trying to coordinate an embargoed thing, but that's stuck upstream atm.
<kees> anyway, that's about it from me.
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I just published a couple of updates this morning
<mdeslaur> for some reason, sis-generate-changes is exploding right now on my second release,so I'm trying to figure out why
<mdeslaur> after that, I have perl to test, and possibly publish this week
<mdeslaur> and after that, I'll go down the list
<mdeslaur> and I also will prepare my travel laptop and stuff
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I finally got php5 out the door last week; discovered a regression over the weekend (bug 774452), and am preparing fixes and updates to qart to fix it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 774452 in php5 (Ubuntu) "php-pear: pecl install reports Call to undefined method PEAR::raiseErro()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/774452
<sbeattie> I also need to do some UDS prep, and hopefully, later this week will be moving to a new laptop (*crosses fingers*)
<sbeattie> I'll probably look for another update to pick up as well.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg?
<micahg> so, I need to get thunderbird out, then do EOL tasks for karmic
<micahg> webkit after that
<micahg> I skipped piloting last week, so Friday I might do double pilot duty if that works out
<micahg> w/travel this week for UDS, that's about it
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> As mentioned, AppArmor userspace is now in Debian! People still need to recompile their kernel to use it, but the tools are now available. Thanks Kees!
<kees> wooo! and everything but the parser even compiles under kfreebsd. ;)
<sbeattie> kees: when do you think you'll push patches upstream for that?
<jdstrand> awesome!
<kees> sbeattie: today for sure. I'm trying to get out from under a mess of other little things that have collected
<sbeattie> kees: okay, cool, happy to review.
<kees> also, randomly:
<kees> openssl | 1.0.0d-2ubuntu1 | oneiric/main
<kees> this has sslv2 _actually_ removed.
<sbeattie> ooh.
<mdeslaur> cool
<kees> as in, it's a library transition since the symbols for v2 are plain gone.
<jdstrand> \o/
<kees> just something to point out as a possible gotcha in oneiric
<jdstrand> probably more of a server team item...
<jdstrand> Daviey: ^ fyi only
<kees> but we'll be sharing it with Debian, so it shouldn't be too terrible.
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> (server team item in that they would probably be affected the most)
<mdeslaur> kees: did upstream disable sslv2 in openssl v1, or did debian?
<kees> mdeslaur: debian (kurt) disabled it, at my (and other's) request.
<mdeslaur> cool
<stgraber> win 61
<stgraber> (oops :))
<jdstrand> that might make python ftbfs iirc
<jdstrand> well, we'll see :)
<kees> yeah, though I think we'll have a softer landing because of the anti-v2 hack I pulled in natty (or was it maverick?)
<jdstrand> does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
 * jdstrand nods
<micahg> meeting next week replaced by roundtable?
<kees> micahg: I think so, yes
<micahg> so, that'll be 08:00 UTC for anyone interested
<jdstrand> sounds good to me
<kees> jdstrand: let's do blueprints in #u-h?
<micahg> check the UDS schedule to figure out which irc channel to join
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> alright, thanks everyone!
<kees> thanks jdstrand!
<mdeslaur> thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:36.
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<jdstrand> sure thing!
<Daviey> jdstrand, thanks for the fyi!
<jdstrand> Daviey: sure!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-05-03
<zul> morning
<zul> who is suppose to be running the meeting today?
 * kirkland waves o/
<kirkland> zul: smoser i think
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<jamespage> \o
<hallyn> \o
<kirkland> according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting, smoser is up
<kirkland> and zul after him
<kirkland> perhaps zul might take over for smoser?
<zul> right..
<zul> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:05. The chair is zul.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<zul> lemme just pull up the agenda
<zul> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> I wasnt here last week so was their anything in the agenda?
<zul> if not ill move on
<zul> [TOPIC] Oneiric Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Development
<zul> if you have blueprints get them registered for next week other than that
<zul> Daviey: anything?
<zul> i guess not :)
<kirkland> zul: this is going to be a quick/easy meeting :-)
<zul> i intend it to be :)
<zul> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> duh....uds is next week
<zul> anything else?
<zul> openstack and puppetcamp were last week..
<zul> which brings us to
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<zul> hi hggdh if you are around
<Daviey> (sorry people, currently on a train - poor net access)
<zul> poor excuse :)
<zul> we'll come back to hgddh
<Daviey> zul: Can i just jump back to development whilst we wait for hggdh ?
<zul> sure
<Daviey> Merge, Merge, Merge!
<Daviey> This is a great time for anyone to get involved in development.
<hallyn> do we have a place to list things we want synced?
<kirkland> hallyn: generally speaking, merges.ubuntu.com
<zul> i got a script that tells you which to merge
<Daviey> There are lots and lots of things to be done!
<Daviey> (note, some merges can be simply dropped and sync'd)
<kirkland> hallyn: see https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html and https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
<Daviey> https://merges.ubuntu.com/
<Daviey> pah, beat me.
<RoAkSoAx> zul: share the scrip please
<Daviey> zul: Is that the script i worked on with you last cycle, or a different one?
 * kirkland waves at Daviey as he's 2 steps behind :-)
<zul> heh already behind
<hallyn> sweet, thanks
<Daviey> kirkland: I have an excuse, went through a tunnel! :)
<hallyn> I still have a backlog of bugs that were waiting for o to open :)
<zul> Daviey: same one
<Daviey> zul: cool
<zul> Daviey: can you put that script up somewhere
<hallyn> has anyone on the team ever looked at netcf integration?  (might consider it for oneiric)
<Daviey> zul: It's on a box @ home which is off... so not until after UDS.  Do you have yours handy?
<Daviey> zul: Including the changelog output?
<zul> Daviey: not the changelog output one
<zul> http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/versions.py
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/versions.py
<hallyn> -EPERM
<zul> doh
<zul> fixed
<RoAkSoAx> zul: 011-05-03 12:17:11 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
<RoAkSoAx> lol
<zul> Daviey: is that all you have?
<zul> ok moving on
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<zul> hi smb if you are around
<smb> I don't have any highlights but I am around if there are questions
<zul> anyone has any questions?
<zul> ok then thanks smb
<smb> :)
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<zul> kim0 is not around
<zul> so moving on
<zul> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<zul> anyone has anything they want to get off their chest?
<RoAkSoAx> zul: I think we should welcom adam_g for oficially joining the ubuntu server team
<RoAkSoAx> as of today
<zul> oh right...adam_g around?
<adam_g> hi :)
<zul> oooh freshmeat is around :)
<zul> hi welcome
<adam_g> thanx, zul. excited to be here
<jamespage> adam_g: o/
<zul> anything else?
<Daviey> Hi ad	!
<zul> no?
<zul> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> Hi: adam_g, rather
<zul> since its uds next week there wont be a meeting next week since we will all be destroying our livers, i mean at uds
<zul> thanks for coming
<RoAkSoAx> hahaha
<zul> #endmeeting
<RoAkSoAx> zul: +1
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:25.
<Daviey> o/
<RoAkSoAx> where's SpampS
<RoAkSoAx> ?
<RoAkSoAx> xD
<Daviey> short meetings ++
<RoAkSoAx> SpamapS: zul was just talking about destroying livers next week xD
<SpamapS> Ah good
 * SpamapS has a few ideas for the best ways to do that
<SpamapS> I thought the meeting had been cancelled.. oops
<zul> next week i think
<hggdh> Daviey: sorry, taking care of my wife
<Daviey> hggdh: no worries... that is more importiant than trying to QA oneiric atm :)
<Daviey> (well at any time for that matter)
<highvoltage> hi!
<highvoltage> stgraber: derp. isn't 20:00 UTC 16:00 for us now?
<stgraber> maybe my zimbra is wrong :)
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep, it's in 47 minutes ... bad zimbra ;)
<charlie-tca> 19:13 UTC now
<Andy80> hi all, is the EMEA Ubuntu Members meeting confirmed ?
<popey> hello Andy80
<popey> should be on momentarily :)
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> hi
<the_eye_> Greetings from greece
<AndreaAzzarone> hi!
<Andy80> ok, thanks :)
<michael_k> Hello from Greece, too
<jim137> Hello from Greece, too
<dim0s> Hello!(From Greece!)
<Andy80> hi AndreaAzzarone :)
<highvoltage> do we have quorum?
 * popey called czajkowski, her phone is off
 * popey tickles ogra 
<popey> yay, hello iulian
<iulian> Hey there Alan!
<highvoltage> I can't chair, I have another issue that I'm dealing with at the same time.
<popey> ok, i can
<popey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:05. The chair is popey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<popey> who is here form the EMEA Board?
<popey> o/
<highvoltage> o/
<stefanos> Hello from Greece, again
<stgraber> o/
<iulian> o/
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<stgraber> ok, 4/7, we have quorum
 * ogra_ laughs
<popey> We will go through the people on that list in order
 * popey hugs ogra 
<popey> and ogra_
<stgraber> hey ogra_
<iulian> Hehe.
<iulian> ogra: That was a delayed laugh.
<popey> Andy80: you're up first, can you please introduce yourself?
<Andy80> popey: sure :)
<Andy80> my name is Andrea Grandi, I'm 30 yr old and italian. I use Ubuntu since its first version in 2004 and I'm a Linux user since 1996.
 * iulian notices loads of italians on the agenda today.
<Andy80> I'm president of "Pistoia Linux User Group", a local (Pistoia is the city where I live) Linux user group, founded in 2001
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreaGrandi
<popey> https://launchpad.net/~andreagrandi
<Andy80> we meet once a week and people come to our location and we help them directly for any Linux problem/question
<popey> wow, once a week!
<Andy80> (tell me when it's enough and I've to stop introducing myself :) )
<Andy80> yeah... we have the luck to have a room with some PC, internet connection and lot of space (we also have a dedicated room where we make tutorials/courses ecc...)
<popey> Are you involved in the Italian testing team at all?
<popey> They seem very successful.
<Andy80> popey: not exactly..... I neither use the italian version of the operating system
 * highvoltage has not questions
<Andy80> I prefer to use the english version for a main reason: when I've a problem, it's easier to google the error message in english :)
<popey> You can still test the English version :)
<iulian> Andy80: Except the LUG stuff, what are your contributions to Ubuntu?  Are you a member of a LoCo team?  In what ways are you contributing to Ubuntu?
<Andy80> when I find some bug I like to report it, test the fix ecc.... but, as I already said, I'm mainly active in helping people directly here at our LUG
<ogra_> it would be good if you could list your bugs on the wiki
 * iulian nods.
<Andy80> iulian: well.... reporting bugs mainly... spreading Ubuntu during conferences we organize ecc..... and no, I'm not member of a LoCo team
<Andy80> oh... I just linked my Launchpad profile https://launchpad.net/~andreagrandi it should contains all my contributions.... does it?
<popey> yeah, i posted that earlier, no problem
<popey> Any more questions?
 * iulian has no more questions.
 * ogra_ neither
<popey> Ok
<popey> We're going to vote in a moment on Andy80's membership, only those in the EMEA board are to vote.
<popey> [VOTE] On the membership of Andy80
<MootBot> Please vote on:  On the membership of Andy80.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from popey. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<highvoltage> +0 [ Good enthusiasm and free software contributions, but no documentation of sustained and significant contributions within Ubuntu yet ]
<MootBot> Abstention received from highvoltage. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<popey> I'm not seeing a evidence of a significant and sustained contribution on the wiki page.
<stgraber> -1 [ Would have liked some testimonials and more documentation ]
<MootBot> -1 received from stgraber. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
<ogra_> +0 [some testimonial would be good and some more details about contributions]
<MootBot> Abstention received from ogra_. 0 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -2
<AndreaAzzarone> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from AndreaAzzarone. 1 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -1
<iulian> -1 from me - I would very much like to see more contributions to Ubuntu.  I see that you're doing loads of good work in organizing meetings and that kind of stuff but it's not enough.
<MootBot> -1 received from iulian. 1 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -2
<popey> grrr AndreaAzzarone
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 3 against. 2 abstained. Total: -2
<AndreaAzzarone> popey, why? :)
<popey> ok, not successful this time Andy80
<highvoltage> so that's really a -3, right?
<ogra_> yes
<popey> AndreaAzzarone: only members of the EMEA board are to vote
<popey> i.e. not you :)
<iulian> AndreaAzzarone: <popey> We're going to vote in a moment on Andy80's membership, only those in the EMEA board are to vote.
<Andy80> ok, thanks anyway :)
<popey> thanks Andy80
<popey> valix is up next, are you here?
<highvoltage> Andy80: thanks, I'm sure we'll see you be an ubuntu member one day
<valix> popey, yes
<AndreaAzzarone> popey, sorry!
<popey> great, please introduce yourself valix
<valix> Hi, my name is Alberto Russo aka valix, and I'm Ubuntu-it Member since March 2010.
<highvoltage> ah so that's where Puglia is
<valix> My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoRusso and my account in launchpad is https://launchpad.net/~valix.
<valix> I contribute in several Ubuntu Italian Community projects, like the Ubuntu Italian Marketing Team and the Ubuntu Italian Testing Team.
<valix> In particular I'm a Administrator of Italian Newsletter and Italian SpreadUbuntu Project.
<popey> Nice testimonials you have there.
<iulian> highvoltage: Puglia?
<valix> I finished.
<totopalma> Alberto is very active in the Ubuntu Italian Marketing (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione), particularly in the projects Diffondi Ubuntu (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/DiffondiUbuntu) and Newsletter Italiana (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/NewsletterItaliana); further, he actively contributes in the Gruppo Test (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoTest). Therefore he really deserves the membership, in my opinion! :)
<valix> highvoltage, Puglia is a region of South of Italy
<popey> http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoTest/Casi/Svolti/11.04 shows the work valix has done on the Italian Testing Team
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoTest/Casi/Svolti/11.04 shows the work valix has done on the Italian Testing Team
<highvoltage> valix: if you could change one thing in Ubuntu, what would that be?
<valix> highvoltage, nice question
<popey> "switch to xfce" by the look of the testing you've done :D
<ogra_> geez, thats an impressive test list
 * ogra_ has no questions
 * iulian has no questions either.
<popey> valix: still there?
<popey> or typing a massive answer... :)
<valix> highvoltage, I don't like banshee as default player, I would rather get back to rythmbox
 * stgraber is ready to vote
 * highvoltage too
<ogra_> o/
<popey> ok
<popey> again, we're going to vote. ONLY EMEA MEMBERSHIP BOARD MEMBERS VOTE (pretty please)
<popey> [VOTE] on valix's membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  on valix's membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<iulian> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from iulian. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<highvoltage> =1 [ goot testing and documentation/marketing efforts ]
<popey> love the testing work, nice testimonials from your team
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ogra_> +1 [not only for the banshee comment ... ]
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<popey> highvoltage: what's that? :)
<highvoltage> +1 [ good testing and documentation/marketing efforts ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> highvoltage: you probably want a +
<stgraber> ;)
<popey> heh
<highvoltage> yeah yeah
<iulian> :)
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<popey> rocking!
<popey> welcome valix and keep up the fantastic work!
<iulian> valix: Congratulations!
<highvoltage> valix: congratulations and welcome
<valix> thanks
<popey> next up is the_eye_ , are you around?
<warp10> rock on, valix! \o/ /me waves an italian flag
<the_eye_> hi
<highvoltage> the_eye_: I visit your blog *very* regularly
<iulian> warp10: Haha, nice one.
<popey> the_eye_: please take a moment to introduce yourself.
<warp10> iulian: :)
<the_eye_> Greatings from Greece, my name is Dimitrios Ntoulas,
<the_eye_> I'm 32 year old. I use Ubuntu since since 2006 6.06.
<popey> that is the _most_ testimonials I have ever seen on one page
<the_eye_> I am a member of a local club for open source. klug.gr
<the_eye_> We have a public lab with pc running ubuntu making install fests,
<the_eye_> presentation, etc. We also have a local support forum. http://klug.gr/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=28
<iulian> highvoltage: I think it is the most visited blog in the entire world.
<popey> you made http://troubleshooting.ubuntu-gr.org/ ?
<the_eye_> :)
<the_eye_> yes
<popey> fantastic idea, love it
<the_eye_> Also I contribute in ubuntu-gr.org forum as o moderator/ administrator and server co administrator (over 7000 members). I recently fix the new ubuntu look theme.
<the_eye_> I am good with php ;)
<the_eye_> I also write some articles in online magazine ubuntistas. http://ubuntistas.ubuntu-gr.org/
<simosx> iulian: i did some editing on the_eye_ blog (to correct the English text), and I messed up the blog URL. i am at fault for that one ;-(
<the_eye_> and as you can see in launchpad I help to translate some project to my native language.
<simosx> iulian: i did some editing on the_eye_ wiki page (to correct the English text), and I messed up the blog URL. i am at fault for that one ;-(
<highvoltage> No questions from me
<stgraber> me neither
<ogra_> neither here
 * iulian is ready to vote.
 * ogra_ is impressed by that wikipage
<popey> ok
<ogra_> and ready too
<popey> [TOPIC] vote on the_eye_'s ubuntu membership please
<MootBot> New Topic:  vote on the_eye_'s ubuntu membership please
<popey> +1
<highvoltage> +1 [ local forums work and local community groundwork ]
<popey> great work, rocking the Greek team!
<iulian> +1 - brilliant work!
<ogra_> +1 [go hellas !]
<michael_k> Thx! on behalf of tema
<michael_k> *team
 * popey tickles stgraber 
<ogra_> heh, popey messed it up
<popey> i did?
<popey> oh, i did
<popey> bum
<stgraber> sorry :)
<popey> sorry
<stgraber> +1
<popey> [VOTE] vote on the_eye_'s ubuntu membership please
<MootBot> Please vote on:  vote on the_eye_'s ubuntu membership please.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> ahem
<highvoltage> +1 [ local forums work and local community groundwork ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ogra_> +1 [go hellas !]
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<iulian> +1 - brilliant work!
<MootBot> +1 received from iulian. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<popey> (still great work)
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<highvoltage> the_eye_: congratulations and welcome
<popey> Sorry about that
<the_eye_> ;) thankssss !!!
<popey> Congratulations the_eye_ !
<popey> Keep on rocking!
<michael_k> Well done the_eye!!!
<the_eye_> keep ubunting ;)
<iulian> Indeed. :)
<iulian> Congrats.
<popey> mlazzari2: you're up next! Are you around?
<mlazzari2> Hi there,
<popey> hey!
<popey> Could you take a moment to introduce yourself please
<mlazzari2> yep
<mlazzari2> i'am Matteo Lazzari , an italian locoteam member ( https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-it-members ).
<mlazzari2> I joined Ubuntu on November 2007 with Ubuntu 7.04
<mlazzari2> I started to contribute to the end of 2008 in Documentation Italian Team.
<mlazzari2> Now I'm an Administrator of *Ubuntu Italian Documentation Team* â https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-it-doc/+members#active and coordinator of three projects an *Ubuntu Italian Marketing Team* :
<mlazzari2> * Ubuntu Pre-installed:( http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/VenditoriUbuntu )
<mlazzari2> * Consumer Associations:( http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/AssociazioniConsumatori )
<mlazzari2> * Spread Ubuntu: ( http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/DiffondiUbuntu )
<mlazzari2> More info on my pages:
<mlazzari2> LP â https://launchpad.net/~mlazzari2
<mlazzari2> Wiki EN â https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatteoLazzari
<mlazzari2> Wiki IT â http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/MatteoLazzari
<mlazzari2> Wiki IT â http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/MatteoLazzari/Prove0
 * popey lols a bit at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-gastro-team
<mlazzari2> Finish  ;)
<totopalma> Matteo is very active in the Ubuntu Italian Documentation (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoDocumentazione), reviewing several community-made guides. He is also active in the Ubuntu Italian Marketing (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione), particularly in the projects Associazioni Consumatori (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/AssociazioniConsumatori), Venditori Ubuntu (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/Vendito
<totopalma> riUbuntu) and Diffondi Ubuntu (http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/DiffondiUbuntu); therefore he really deserves the membership, in my opinion!
 * popey joins
<mlazzari2> popey yep
<warp10> popey: extremely important team, let me say :)
<popey> mlazzari2: what activites do you do to market Ubuntu in the Marketing Team?
<mlazzari2> i'm coordinator http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/VenditoriUbuntu
<mlazzari2> and http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/AssociazioniConsumatori
<popey> any more questions?
<highvoltage> nope
<popey> ok
 * popey tries to get the right mootbot incantation
<popey> [VOTE] on mlazzari2's Ubuntu membership..
<MootBot> Please vote on:  on mlazzari2's Ubuntu membership...
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<iulian> Ready to go.
<highvoltage> +1 [ loco team and community involvement ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ogra_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<iulian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from iulian. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<popey> great loco work, keep it up!
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<ogra_> ++
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<highvoltage> mlazzari2: congratiolations and welcome
<Claudinux> mlazzari2, congrats \o/
<mlazzari2> thanks at all, i'm very happy  :-)
<popey> mlazzari2: awesome stuff!
<valix> mlazzari2, congrats \o/
<warp10> mlazzari2 FTW! \o/ /me waves the italian flag again
<popey> hehe
<mlazzari2> warp10,  thx my friend
<iulian> :)
<popey> that flag is getting some use this evening!
 * iulian nods.
<popey> ricsipontaz: you around, you're up next.
<ricsipontaz> okay
<ricsipontaz> hi all
<ricsipontaz> My name is Richard SomlÃ³i and I'm from Hungary. I'm 23 years old.
<highvoltage> is that why I'm feeling like eating italian ice-cream tonight?
<ricsipontaz> My hobbies are the sports (mostly ball games), the music and the IT.
<ricsipontaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ricsipontaz
<highvoltage> what kind of music?
<ricsipontaz> rock/punk/alternative
<popey> really nicely documented wiki page
<ricsipontaz> thanks :)
<stgraber> ricsipontaz: are you going to be at UDS next week ?
<ricsipontaz> yes
 * highvoltage is excited about Hungary
 * ogra_ too ... i hope i'll find my way :)
 * ogra_ comes by car
 * popey will miss you all
<ogra_> you dont come ?
<stgraber> ogra_: hehe, how long a drive is that ? (not really on topic but as you started it ...)
<highvoltage> ogra_: with the red "porche"?
<ogra_> highvoltage, i upgraded ... its a white one now
<ogra_> anyway, i didnt want to distract
<popey> ricsipontaz: on the subject of full circle, does a Hungarian version of the PDF get generated?
<ogra_> and have no questions
<popey> ricsipontaz: or is it just the articles that get translated individually?
<highvoltage> I could ask ricsipontaz lots of questions but I've already made up my mind
 * ogra_ too
<ricsipontaz> Yes, we generate hungarian PDF, but now our page (http://fullcircle) doen't works. :(
<popey> ok, thats cool
<ricsipontaz> but you can find it at the official homepage too.
<popey> ah, ok
<mlazzari2> bye
<popey> ok, lets vote...
<popey> [VOTE] on ricsipontaz's Ubuntu membership please
<MootBot> Please vote on:  on ricsipontaz's Ubuntu membership please.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<highvoltage> +1 [ great translations and loco team involvement ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<popey> +1
<ogra_> +1 [great translation work<9
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<iulian> +1
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from iulian. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<popey> Great work, well documented, a great example
<highvoltage> ricsipontaz: congratulations and welcome, and say hi to us at UDS!
<ogra_> yeah
<ricsipontaz> okay, thanks all :)
<popey> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<popey> well done
<highvoltage> 4 new members, that's a good meeting!
<popey> rock on!
<ogra_> Andy80, you too btw
<iulian> Heh.
<popey> yeah, thanks to everyone for coming
<ogra_> (say hi at UDS i mean)
<Andy80> let's hope next time :)
<popey> same time next month :)
<ogra_> stgraber, according to google its 1000km ... 8-9h
<Andy80> by the way... I don't think I'll change much :\
<popey> Andy80: my recommendation is update the documentation on your wiki page and get involved in the loco :)
<iulian> + testimonials.
<ogra_> and if you are at UDS and contribute you should link the specs that result from this
<Andy80> I already spend lot of time in the activities I described, so.... it's difficoult I'll find more time to contribute Ubuntu directly :(
<popey> that also
<Andy80> ok, I'll join a LoCo at least ;)
<stgraber> ogra_: good thing it's Europe and not the US ;) 1000km in 8-9h is quite fast :)
<popey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:51.
<ogra_> well, thats what google thinks ;)
<popey> thanks again everyon!
<popey> +e
<Andy80> see ya at UDS guys :)
<ogra_> thanks popey for chairing
<popey> np
<ricsipontaz> thanks all, bye!
<highvoltage> yep, thanks popey indeed
<stgraber> see you all at UDS (for these who'll be there)!
<stgraber> thanks popey
<popey> enjoy!
<popey> Make O-O (can't spell it) rock!
<iulian> Cheers!
<iulian> Haha.
<Technoviking> who do we have here from the CC?
<popey> o/
 * pleia2 waves
<Technoviking> I don't think we will have a quorum, but we will go ahead and start
 * popey query mdke
<popey> bah!
<Technoviking> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:01. The chair is Technoviking.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> we can defer the first item to UDS, since we will have a session there to review
<Technoviking> [TOPIC] Community Council Meeting 3-May-2001 Chair: Technoviking
<MootBot> New Topic:  Community Council Meeting 3-May-2001 Chair: Technoviking
<Technoviking> ok
<Technoviking> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Technoviking> is nathan-bahn here?
<Technoviking> we will give him a few minutes.
<Technoviking> anything for the CC while we wait for nathan?
<popey> hi mdke
<mdke> heya, sorry I'm late
<Technoviking> no problem
<Technoviking> ok looks like nathan will not be here.
<pleia2> I think that's all we really had
<Technoviking> I feel discussed the Sounder ad-nasuem last time, and I feel the wider Ubuntu community is very ok with what happened
<Technoviking> anything else?
<mdke> for what it's worth, I thoroughly agree on that subject - I wasn't at the last meeting but have followed the issue
<popey> well, I'd expected more people to turn up to be honest
<popey> I was anticipating more people to come to this meeting and voice their concern/objections
<Technoviking> We were willing to discuss it agin, so I think all time zone have been covered well
 * ogra_ is surprised as well, given the noise on ubuntu-users this causes recently
<amedee> (test... is my message on channel? It's been a while since I used irssi)
<amedee> sorry for the test. popey invited me
<ogra_> amedee, it is
<amedee> I came here for the sounder topic
<popey> you're welcome to speak freely amedee
<amedee> thank you, popey
<amedee> first I would like to say that I agree with a lot of what was said in the last meeting (I read the log): sounder was getting out of control
<amedee> It's just that the solution to the problem seemed a bit drastic. Suppose I read an article in my local newspaper about some government agency that is switching all of their computers to Ubuntu, where can I make some sound about that? In the current situation it's not allowed on ubuntu-users, because it's not technical.
<popey> We have marketing mailing lists.
<popey> There's actually mailing lists, forums, irc channels and other communication mediums for pretty much any topic you want to discuss that would have been discussed on sounder...
<amedee> do you? That's good to know. I may have looked over them, the page with all the mailing lists is really long
<mdke> that would also be suited to the UWN
<popey> ... except religion, politics and history.
<pleia2> and ubuntu-news-team for sending articles to be included in ubuntu weekly news
<pleia2> or on ubuntu-news.org
<amedee> popey: why wasn't moderation considered? For example you moderated here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2011-April/243224.html
<popey> It was used on a few occasions.
<popey> but it got to the point where there were only a few people talking, and those few people repeatedly abused the 'rules'
<amedee> I wouldn't mind if it had been used a bit more. You know who I'm talking about. It was always the same people that brought up religion etc
<popey> Sure, and to some degree I agree with you.
<popey> But it would have ended up being a ghost-town
<popey> making it somewhat pointless
<envygeeks> popey: why would they not have just been banned from the list?
<ogra_> well, it was a good garbage can for ubuntu-users ...
<amedee> perhaps, perhaps not. We'll never know.
<popey> anyway, that wasnt the actual reason I called for it to be shut down
<ogra_> and its noticeable missing as that function now
<mdke> for me, and I may take a more extreme view than some other CC members (I don't know), I'm really not concerned that the concept of the list serves a justifiable purpose for the community, quite apart from the issue of whether posts were on-topic there or not
<popey> the reason I called for it to be shutdown was because it didnt fulfil its original function, it wasnt needed anymore
<amedee> ogra_: I disagree. Garbage shouldn't be put on the internet in the first place. If people can't have some restraint then they have no place online.
<pleia2> I haven't really noticed the sounder traffic moving to -users all that much (there is some unity discussion, but I don't see that as horribly off-topic for -users)
<mdke> s/concerned/convinced
<ogra_> amedee, i wasnt meaning to praise that function at all :)
<popey> ogra_: thats fair comment. but I dont believe we should provide garbage bins for people
<mdke> ogra_: having a "users bin" isn't really a good justification for having a separate list
<popey> there are plenty of other places people can chat
<ogra_> popey, totally now
<ogra_> *not
<popey> As one friend of mine often says "Goodbye and enjoy the rest of the internet"
<ogra_> what I#m saying is that we now end up with a lot of offtopic stuff on -users
<popey> the internet is big, Canonical/Ubuntu isn't obliged to provide a forum for everyone to discuss everything
<amedee> popey: could you please remind me of the original function?
<mdke> ogra_: the answer is just to deal with that, rather than shunting it off
<popey> ogra_: sure, we do, and I really appreciate the amount of work you've done on that list recently
<popey> amedee: take a look at the archive, look at the first few months of the list
<ogra_> mdke, i'm not saying its good to have a grabage can list :)
<ogra_> its just something i noticed ...
<mdke> ogra_: I may have misunderstood you then
<amedee> feel free to give the boot to people who go off topic on ubuntu-users, after some fair warning
<popey> amedee: we have done that as you pointed out
<popey> I've set two people to moderation in the last week on -users
<popey> i try to keep the moderation low, and not publicise it too much otherwise you end up with gargantuan threads about moderation
<ogra_> heh, yeah
<popey> I do think it's somewhat telling that nobody at all turned up to the last cc meeting
<popey> and you are the only person who has turned up to this one
<NoOp_> NoOp (Gary Lee) requesting permission to comment re: sounder list
<popey> NoOp_: go ahead
<ogra_> NoOp_, just speak
<popey> (okay, may that two)
<ogra_> no formalities here :)
<amedee> I'm taking a look at
<amedee> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2004-August/thread.html
<popey> amedee: that's it.
<amedee> popey: I understand. You already have the reputation of being the list-nazi for some people. ;-) I know what it's like. I have moderated a forum for a couple of years.
 * ogra_ thinks popey does an awesome job
 * popey will miss ogra_'s hugs at UDS
<sladen> awhhh
 * ogra_ will miss you too :'-( 
<amedee> lots of technical topics on sounder in august 2004. Seems like it didn't service any additional purpose back then either.
<mdke> amedee: the month before ubuntu-users was created, it looks like :) But the Ubuntu community doesn't bear much resemblance now to then, so it is quite difficult to make comparisons. I think we need to assess whether sounder had value for the current community
<mdke> and our conclusion was that it didn't
 * ogra_ wonders if NoOp_ will say something :)
<amedee> mdke: don't worry, in the broader perspective I tend to agree with the decision, or at least I understand the motivation.
<popey> I know I got a lot of flak for this, as if it was entirely my decision (or for some, that it was Canonical's decision) but neither of those are true.
 * mdke nods
<popey> people have other places to go.
<popey> there's the new bikeshed google group which has 38 or so people on it, mostly refugees from sounder
<mdke> it's a shame popey took flak for this, because it was unanimous on the part of the CC afaics
<popey> bear in mind some interesting numbers...
<popey> 20-25 people spoke on sounder regularly
<popey> 400 people subscribed
<amedee> Well then, I guess I was the only 'regular' user from the mailing lists that made an effort to be heard on irc. I don't want to start about religion but there's this story about a city that's going to be burned to the ground and about a number of righteous men. :)
<NoOp_> sorry - small irc glitch. For the record I think that sounder was out of control. However I also think that early moderation could have prevented that. Whilst it may have ended up a 'ghost town' the end result would have been better than simply shutting it down.
<pleia2> thanks for coming and voicing your thoughts, amedee :)
<popey> take another random mailing list - the ubuntu loco list, has 700 members! the sounder list just flat out wasn't representative of the project, in any way.
<popey> *ubuntu-uk loco
<mdke> I have to say that if I had thought that the list served a useful purpose in the community, I would also have looked for another solution. Shutting a valid list down is not a solution. But I don't think the list served or could serve a useful purpose
<pleia2> mdke: +1
<amedee> popey: I used to be on the ubuntu-be loco list a couple of years ago :)
<sladen> sounder was of a time and place... a time and place where everyone involved in Ubuntu was on it
<mdke> so for me, moderation wasn't a solution
<mdke> sladen: agreed
<lmario> anyway, ubuntu-users is now full of OTs...
<amedee> sounder became sodom, and we all know how that ended :)
<mdke> it can sometimes be hard to let that sort of history go, but it's also healthy
<amedee> mdke: pruning of branches to let the flowers grow, to use a gardening analogy
<ogra_> lmario, as i stated above, -users is missing its grabage can now, but that points out a problem with -users (that it actually needs a garbage can)
<popey> its not full of OT
<popey> there are some
<amedee> ogra_: I think the only good garbage can for a mailing list is moderation
<popey> and I anticipated this after sounder shutdown
<ogra_> not full, but more than there were two months ago
<mdke> I think the -users issue, if there is an issue, can be discussed and dealt with as a separate topic. Perhaps more moderators are needed
<lmario> @ogra: that is some kind of moderation?
<popey> perhaps we'll try and calm that down a bit after a while
 * ogra_ just doesnt want to end up with two merged lists 
<Technoviking> thinking we need to build a Mailing list community, like the forums and irc have
<popey> amedee: you may or may not be surprised to hear there aren't many volunteers to help with mailing list moderation!
<ogra_> where one exists through the OT tag
 * mdke nods at Technoviking 
<popey> Technoviking: yeah, I have pondered that also
<pleia2> I agree that this should be picked up in a separate topic and handled as a -users issue
<mdke> ogra_: agreed, the topic of the users mailing list should also be defined and applied properly
<popey> a bunch of people who run listadmin regularly and keep on top of the threads
<pleia2> popey: *nod*
<mdke> who is doing that now?
<popey> but it's also worth noting that the -users list has also had a lot of unity traffic
<popey> mdke: o/
<ogra_> right
<popey> maybe a topic for UDS?
<amedee> popey: I already said that I was a forum moderator for a couple of years. Let me add that I was the _only_ moderator for 5 years on a forum with >6000 registered users and >100 active users/day. I *know* the problem.
<pleia2> I am listed as one of the list admins, but I think it just landed on my lap because I didn't step back :) I don't actually have the time to help with moderation
 * ogra_ suspects that will go on for a while 
<popey> a blueprint for mailing list admin team?
<mdke> popey: why not
<JanC> amedee: you want to be the moderator of sounder?  :P
<amedee> and there we have the person who gave me an Ubuntu coaster back in 2004. Hi JanC!
<JanC> (I can confirm amedee was the only really active moderator on that forum)
<amedee> Or was it 2005? Never mind, it was a long time ago.
<JanC> at some point  ;)
<popey> I have slacked off the moderation of -users over the last month, as a result of sounder closure, and unity release.
<NoOp_> previously on the users list when subjects became too OT, but still Ubuntu related (Unity for example), one could suggest taking the conversation to sounder. That is no longer possible. Now the options got to forums or usenet.
<popey> it would be great if there was a team who could jump on the OT and wild topics on -users, for sure
<amedee> I'll have to watch my words now, because JanC knows me IRL. :)
<pleia2> popey: blueprint sounds good
<mdke> NoOp_: but that's just an extension of the dustbin argument; there should be a list to pick up all the stuff that doesn't fall on topic of other lists; that's not a great concept for a list!
<mdke> (IMO)
<popey> There are nearly 5000 people on -users compared to ~400 on sounder!
<mdke> a list should have a topic, not an un-topic
<pleia2> I think we're getting into a loop now and we should probably wrap up :)
<popey> ok, I'm happy to create a blueprint for UDS
<pleia2> great!
<popey> but someone at UDS will need to drive it
 * popey flutters his eyelashes at 
<popey> Technoviking
<popey> and/or pleia2 :)
 * Technoviking whistles
<pleia2> I'm a bit overwhelmed at UDS already, if Technoviking could that'd be great, I'll attend and help
<Technoviking> I can
<mdke> good call
<popey> great
 * ogra_ will attend if schedule allows
<Technoviking> So, Popey will write out a blueprint and I will try to get it on the schedule and drive it at UDS
<mdke> on the -users issue.
<pleia2> sounds good
<popey> yes
<Technoviking> If nothing else, I'm sure we can discuss at an community roundtable
<mdke> As for the sounder issue, if anyone has any comments and wasn't able to attend the meeting, we can follow up by email if necessary
<popey> well, general mailing list moderation
<popey> focussed on -users
<amedee> JanC: no I do not want to be the moderator of sounder. You know what will happen! ;-)
<ogra_> popey, well, that should be announced at -users (with a link about remote participation at UDS)
<popey> good point ogra_
<Technoviking> I will ping -user, when I get a session scheduled
<popey> great
<mdke> thanks for driving that popey and Technoviking
<Technoviking> ok is there anything else people want to discuss with the CC
<Technoviking> 3...
<Technoviking> 2...
<Technoviking> 1...
<NoOp_> mdke: but on occasion the dustbin does pick up some good bits. anyway, looks as it there isn't anything further re: sounder - thanks for allowing comments.
<pleia2> thanks for coming, NoOp_
<ogra_> yeah
<popey> if anyone has further comments, do please send them to us directly
<mdke> yes, thanks all
<popey> community-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<Technoviking> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:50.
<amedee> thanks for listening to NoOp_ & myself
<ogra_> thats what the CC is there for ;)
<Technoviking> no rpoblem
<mdke> thanks for the constructive discussion
<Technoviking> problem:)
<MrChrisDruif> Community Council meeting moved?
<Pendulum> MrChrisDruif: I think it was an hour ago
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-05-04
<cprofitt> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:03. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cprofitt> hello all... All UBT members please say here
<UndiFineD> here
<MrChrisDruif> there
<UndiFineD> everywhere
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<cprofitt> alright... well...
<cprofitt> I think the Doodle poll was rather conclusive
<UndiFineD> same here
<MrChrisDruif> It kinda was.
<cprofitt> does anyone object to adopting the name pair of guide and student to replace master and padawan?
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe link to the doodle for reference?
<MrChrisDruif> Student?
<cprofitt> [LINK] http://doodle.com/3w8azia4bwnwv8fk
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://doodle.com/3w8azia4bwnwv8fk
<MrChrisDruif> cprofitt: There was only a vote for the new Master name
<hajour> o/
<UndiFineD> should I close it down tomorrow ?
<JackyAlcine> o/
<hajour> here
<cprofitt> [VOTE] Adopt the title pair of Guide and Student to replace Master and Padwan
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Adopt the title pair of Guide and Student to replace Master and Padwan.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<UndiFineD> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from UndiFineD. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MrChrisDruif> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from MrChrisDruif. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MrChrisDruif> There was never a vote about the new naming for student
<hajour> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from hajour. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<UndiFineD> I could draw up an other doodle if wanted
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: correct -- there was no poll for it
<cprofitt> that is why I wanted to vote here on the subject
<cprofitt> any more votes?
<MrChrisDruif> Hence I voted against the pair of Guide and Student.
<hajour> not many around i think in meeting
<MrChrisDruif> JackyAlcine: ^
<cprofitt> last call for votes
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
<cprofitt> [AGREED] UBT to adopt Guide and Student in place of Master and Padawan
<MootBot> AGREED received:  UBT to adopt Guide and Student in place of Master and Padawan
<UndiFineD> hmmm, not really represenative for our team cprofitt
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: were there any other options for student put forth?
<UndiFineD> yes
<MrChrisDruif> I agree with the Guide (as is seen on the Doodle. I object against the Student
<MrChrisDruif> Apprentice?
<cprofitt> if you want to make a poll we can do that
<cprofitt> I was only aware of student... but if there were others we can have a poll
<MrChrisDruif> And I've seen other pass the avenue
<UndiFineD> I proposed Student
<UndiFineD> During the meeting Apprentice was suggested
<UndiFineD> In the past I have also used Mentee
<hajour> i think a poll would be good to make cprofitt
<cprofitt> well Mentee is for the Mentor / Mentee
<cprofitt> so already in use
<cprofitt> hajour: I agree
<MrChrisDruif> +1
<cprofitt> lets make a poll for the padawan replacement
<MrChrisDruif> Agreed
<UndiFineD> ok
<cprofitt> [AGREED] to hold on the padawan replacement and put a poll up
<MootBot> AGREED received:  to hold on the padawan replacement and put a poll up
<hajour> welcome jledbetter
<UndiFineD> will do so after the meeting then
<cprofitt> I want to put a poll up and have it finish Sunday
<cprofitt> no need to have it drag on for multiple weeks
<UndiFineD> ok
<hajour> yes also noting the uds is coming many are very busy to prepare for uds cprofitt
<UndiFineD> do we need to start anything else for improving UBT: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-beginners/2011-April/001916.html
<cprofitt> hajour: the same reason I would like the title in place
<cprofitt> so we can use it at UDS
<hajour> a ok i understand
<jledbetter> o/
<cprofitt> it takes very little time to go to a poll and click
<cprofitt> jledbetter: ?
<jledbetter> Saying I'm here. Sorry.
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-beginners-projects/+spec/community-o-ubuntu-beginners
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-beginners-projects/+spec/community-o-ubuntu-beginners
<cprofitt> np
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: you have the floor
<UndiFineD> well, we started on this blueprint together, do we need to add anything else onto it ?
<UndiFineD> it talks of continued improvements
<UndiFineD> and our lack of motu people
<UndiFineD> I hope our little community is more widely known now, and we can attract the old guard
<UndiFineD> and perhaps even help canonical people into the community
<MrChrisDruif> That last part shouldn't be too difficult....if only they wanted to come into the community :P
<UndiFineD> MrChrisDruif, they do, and often I see them fail at the community boards
<hajour> i was thinking on shift turns for helping in ubuntu-beginners no often there is no respond on questions very long time or all are there the same time
<hajour> just a idea
<MrChrisDruif> "Working in shifts"?
<MrChrisDruif> We're no company
<UndiFineD> we flock ?
<hajour> just that there is at least a few
<cprofitt> hajour: I think we do a good job of filling the IRC channel
<cprofitt> I would be opposed to having scheduled shifts
<MrChrisDruif> +1 on that
<cprofitt> we have enough trouble figuring out GMT vs. UTC vs. EDT
<UndiFineD> the irc channel is filled, but response time is the issue
<hajour> UndiFineD,  explains what i meant
<jledbetter> lol cprofitt
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: we can not garauntee a response time
<MrChrisDruif> Not always btw
<cprofitt> even if we took shifts we can not garauntee that the people in the channel would know the answer
<jledbetter> I was just typing that, cprofitt.
<cprofitt> I also think placing a formality to the role of a volunteer takes away the volunteer part of it
<UndiFineD> that is true as well
<hajour> what i mean is in guide there is standing put in your question answer comes later but a part never get answer
<cprofitt> hajour: true... and I expect that to happen
<UndiFineD> to fix time issues: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/desktop/time.png
<MrChrisDruif> Guide? I've never heard of that, other then being the new (approved?) name for master
<hajour> when i came in channel it was write somewhere that it works that way MrChrisDruif  not remember exactly where anymore
<hajour> a answer also can be to send you to a channel where can be answered
<MrChrisDruif> I only see in the topic that you can directly start asking questions; if anybody knows the answer, they will most likely reply
<hajour> often is told to people put in the question they read back and then you later most of time get a answer.
<cprofitt> are we good on this topic? or should we take it to mailing list?
<MrChrisDruif> You mean that when the active people on IRC don't know the answer, that they should put it on the forums?
<hajour> i not know i just said what i had noticed
<cprofitt> I think it is an excellent topic for the support FG to address more completely
<MrChrisDruif> :D
<hajour> that can but if you are new often you not know how the forum works
<UndiFineD> cprofitt, maybe we should add an entry message saying response time may vary but often is within 10 minutes
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: we could...
<cprofitt> not sure how many would see that in the topic
<UndiFineD> when people know an answer
<cprofitt> but it is a good question for the FG to figure out
<jledbetter> +1 to support talking amongst itself and going to the ML later
<MrChrisDruif> And also, it's not guaranteed; no need to put something like that in the topic
<UndiFineD> and that they can also ask their question in #ubuntu
<hajour> UndiFineD,  types my idea now
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: can you share the UDS Blueprint with the general mailing list too?
<hajour> thanks UndiFineD
<UndiFineD> sure
<cprofitt> jledbetter: did you have any response from kdotj?
<cprofitt> or Gamegoodfs2
<cprofitt> I am going to remove the folks on our list that have been contacted
<jledbetter> cprofitt, Everybody that I contacted wanted to have a master. If someone said no or didn't reply, I would have removed him/her
<hajour> the thing is not all people have a own pc.many have to share it and kids often must do the pc offline in night
<cprofitt> unless you had conversations with them
<cprofitt> ok... so you contacted them, but did not take them on...
<UndiFineD> I have room for 1 more
<jledbetter> Yeah. That was before I was officially allowed.
<hajour> so its often not possible to wait on a answer that i mean cprofitt
<cprofitt> for the guide ???? you can take on more than one... potentially several since you are really just getting them setup with the basics
<UndiFineD> I already have 2 now
<jledbetter> Yeah. Documentation says we had to be approved.
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, should all the Guides be in all the FG IRC's? Getting to know all the mentors?
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: no... the guides need not do that
<cprofitt> please take a look at that list and try to contact the people who have not been listed as contacted
<cprofitt> I usually try to stay w/in my time zone, but for basic information email can work as well
<UndiFineD> I started numbering them, so we maintain some order of new entries
<UndiFineD> see who has been on the list longest
<cprofitt> if you are willing to take a person on you can send them an email
<cprofitt> and note that you sent a contact out
<cprofitt> once you take them on remove them from this list
<MrChrisDruif> How would a Guide be a good help if for instance he knows a lot about wiki stuff and nothing about bug triaging? Or development? How would he direct them in the right way? Just saying "Go to that channel and ask for a mentor?"
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<cprofitt> and add them to that list
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: a guide just has to help a person throught he basics...
<cprofitt> getting an LP account, the CoC, starting a wiki page
<cprofitt> they do not have to be an expert
<cprofitt> the Mentors are the experts in particular areas
<UndiFineD> I think I should take over JasonO from pedro, who has been away for a long time now
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: +1
<jledbetter> Don't we have someone that's lead of the mentor/master/guide program?
<hajour> UndiFineD,  already is guiding JasonO  the most btw
<cprofitt> subscribing to the membership page will send you email alerts when people signup
<cprofitt> and is a good way to ensure we try contacting these people quickly
<cprofitt> for example
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dlopez12
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dlopez12
<cprofitt> read his page -- in regards to UBT
<cprofitt> he edited the membership page on 3-13,, set a goal of being a member by May 1st
<cprofitt> and has not been contacted yet
<cprofitt> we need to try to ensure that we get to people more quickly than that
<MrChrisDruif> cprofitt: Setting a goal is all fine and dandy of course, but if he isn't even contacted, how would he know how long it takes to become a member?
<jledbetter> Maybe we should batch people a little.
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: I agree...
<UndiFineD> and I have not even seen him around our channels
<cprofitt> But us not contacting the person for over a month is not a good thing either
<UndiFineD> so how serious is he
<cprofitt> some people may not follow through, but I want to ensure we do
<cprofitt> we can question them, but that is truly unfair given that we have not follow through either
<cprofitt> that is why I would like to see - the contacted by / date
<MrChrisDruif> We work best in IRC...
<JasonO> hajour I'm here.
<jledbetter> Some work best in email :)
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha JasonO
<cprofitt> if those people have not been removed from the list within 30 days of being contacted then we should remove them from the list
<JasonO> Hi MrChrisDruif
<hajour> ok great hello JasonO
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: the UBT works in email, forums, ask ubuntu and IRC
<cprofitt> so we need to at least try to contact folks via email
<JasonO> Hi hajour
<jledbetter> And if via email can work outside our time zone
<cprofitt> jledbetter: can you take on those people that said they want a guide?
<cprofitt> that you contacted?
<jledbetter> cprofitt, Yes, but I fear, frankly, being stretched too thin.
<cprofitt> jledbetter: take one what you can -- and pass the others to me
<cprofitt> I will get them started
<UndiFineD> duane has taken on some new ones too
<jledbetter> cprofitt, Ok, thank you. I'll contact them tonight.
<cprofitt> thanks jledbetter
<cprofitt> we need to remove people from that list if we have taken them on
<cprofitt> any other topics from the floor?
<MrChrisDruif> Can the European people finally go to bed?
<MrChrisDruif> :P
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: yes
<cprofitt> thanks for coming everyone
<hajour>  hehe MrChrisDruif
<UndiFineD> thanks people
<cprofitt> I apologize for screwing up the GMT UTC stuff
<MrChrisDruif> Your welcome, I'll see the doodle in the mail :P
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:46.
<UndiFineD> I will create the poll, update the wiki
<hajour> np cprofitt
<MrChrisDruif> The wiki? Let me :D
<hajour> UndiFineD,  is in pm but says ok MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> Working as we speak, also a clean up ;)
<hajour> great MrChrisDruif
 * cking --> lunch and run some errands, back in 1.5 hours or so
<cjwatson> awooga
<jhunt_> o/
<barry> wheee!
 * stgraber waves
<czajkowski> way too happy for a meeting
<csurbhi> o/
<doko> hi
 * slangasek waves
<psurbhi> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
<MootBot> New Topic:  lightning round
<slangasek> let's see, how do we do this
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko csurbhi stgraber jhunt)
<slangasek> doko csurbhi stgraber cjwatson barry jhunt
<slangasek> let's try that :)
<slangasek> doko: hey there
<doko> opening oneiric, syncs & merges, chasing apt miscompilation on armel
<doko> done
<psurbhi> *) worked on a bug for getting btrfs subvolume support in os-prober (bug 764893)
<psurbhi> *) worked on adding btrfs subvolume support in the rescue package.
<psurbhi> *) working on resolving an upstream bug: ext4: cannot unfreeze a filesystem due to a deadlock
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 764893 in os-prober (Ubuntu Oneiric) "os-prober: does not detect Ubuntu in btrfs subvolume" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/764893
<stgraber> done?
<psurbhi> yes
<stgraber> ok
<stgraber> This week I've mostly been looking through specs for UDS, trying to get familiar with the Foundations ones, proposing a few and fighting with the schedule, the usual :)
<stgraber> Also been looking a bit at merges/syncs for Oneiric and worked on the gdm/kdebase-workspace Natty SRU (bug 436936).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 436936 in kdebase-workspace (Ubuntu Natty) "gdm upstart job checks /proc/cmdline for single user mode, won't start on post-boot runlevel change" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/436936
<stgraber> (done)
<cjwatson> Done:
<cjwatson>  - Quite a bit of archive maintenance.  Opened Oneiric in record time, thanks doko. :-)
<cjwatson>  - Loads of installer syncs/merges, plus openssl, memtest86+, rpm, ttf-cjk-compat, and ntfs-3g.
<cjwatson>  - Oneiric planning with Steve.
<cjwatson>  - Patch pilot this morning.
<cjwatson>  - Working on and off on GRUB package reorganisation.
<cjwatson> To do:
<cjwatson>  - Complete Oneiric planning.
<cjwatson>  - Finish GRUB repackaging.  My goal here is to provide coinstallable versions of all the GRUB platform packages, making it simpler to build GRUB-based images.
<cjwatson> psurbhi: and I owe you an os-prober review
<cjwatson> done
<barry> dhpy2 transition; python3 transition; debug bug 616742 (avogadro -> dhpy2); patch pilot; gnome bug 649165 (review); bug 772026 (apport -> dhpy2/dh - ongoing); system & schroot upgrades. done.
<ubottu> Gnome bug 649165 in introspection "Enumeration symbols are LC_CTYPE specific" [Major,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=649165
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772026 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport depends on python-central, which is deprecated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772026
<jhunt_> Natty sprint and install testing, which found bug 771241. Tracked down
<jhunt_> some nasty libnih bugs (bug 776532 (has fix plan), bug 777093 (has MP)
<jhunt_> and bug 777097 (has MP)). Investigative work for OEM team. Documented
<jhunt_> TODO items for Upstart session support (bug 776392).  Bit of work on new
<jhunt_> Upstart testing tool and investigations into some new Upstart tooling.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771241 in linux (Ubuntu) "kernel command-line console handling broken in natty" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771241
<jhunt_> UDS planning and discussions with Server Team.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 776532 in libnih "nih_dir_walk_scan passes incorrect value to file filter" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/776532
<jhunt_> EOT
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 777093 in libnih "nih_watch_reader() doesn't handle inotify queue overflow" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/777093
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 777097 in libnih "nih_watch_handle() does not handle file watches correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/777097
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 776392 in upstart (Ubuntu) "finish user session support" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/776392
<barry> sorry that should have been debian bug 616742
<ubottu> Debian bug 616742 in src:avogadro "avogadro: deprecation of dh_pycentral, please use dh_python2" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/616742
<doko> barry: what do you mean by "dhpy2 transition" and  "python3 transition" ?
<slangasek> and that's why we call it the lightning round then :)
<barry> doko: been working on the py3 spreadsheet, will be sending out a call for participation later today.  been also going through the pycentral bugs and working up patches
 * slangasek throws in his own two cents
<slangasek> been working on oneiric planning; also working on clearing a backlog of process-removals from Debian (only 2 years or so of backlog); maybe will get to start doing some merges at the end of the week (maybe)
<slangasek> which leads us right to...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS
<slangasek> I assume everyone has their tickets booked already ;)
 * cjwatson panics ... no, wait, it's OK
 * barry even found his passport :)
<cjwatson> (I did have to apologise to admin for being late though)
<slangasek> if any lightbulbs have gone off suddenly after oneiric opened to make you realize there's something else we should be working on for this cycle and need to discuss... it's not too late to get it on the agenda
<cjwatson> the deadline is Friday, right?
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> in the meantime we're still getting everything turned into blueprints, and making the autoscheduler earn its keep
<slangasek> so drop a proposal on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/OneiricPlanning, or ping me or cjwatson with details
<doko> not sure if it's worth talking about buildd availability for test rebuilds, the soyuz people and hardware enabling people are not present
<cjwatson> doko: it might be better to arrange separate discussions with them+IS for that
<stgraber> I was actually just thinking of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-foundations-n-improved-support-declarations and if we should schedule it again for uds-o. Will add it to the wiki.
<cjwatson> stgraber: does it need re-discussion, or just drafting + implementation?
<stgraber> cjwatson: probably just drafting + implementation. Would have to see if we have notes for this one though (nothing in the blueprint itself)
<cjwatson> it looks like it has the bulk of a spec, but nobody's done the thinking to distil it down to actionable items ... it feels vague to me
<cjwatson> the blueprint links to a wiki page that has a chunk of it
<barry> slangasek: there are two foundations-o-python-version blueprints, one for ubuntu (carried over from n) and one for python.  i'll consolidate those and we can get rid of one of them
<cjwatson> but it's not a completed spec
<cjwatson> (the Design section has multiple alternatives, no decision taken ...)
<stgraber> yeah, I was kind of hoping to see work items in there and the spec being deferred, but it's not the case :(
<slangasek> barry: ack, thanks
<slangasek> stgraber, cjwatson: useful to re-discuss this then to drive it to conclusion?  or does someone need to go have a think about it first?
<cjwatson> (I was mostly there for comic relief, persia and stgraber were the main drivers I think)
<cjwatson> persia was the drafter - I'll check with him whether he just ran out of time, or whether he feels it needs more discussion
<stgraber> sounds good
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to check with persia whether more discussion is needed on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-foundations-n-improved-support-declarations at UDS
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to check with persia whether more discussion is needed on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-foundations-n-improved-support-declarations at UDS
<slangasek> actionated!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> good news, bad news?
<cjwatson> action done
<cjwatson> psurbhi: are you planning to re-discuss upstart-in-initramfs this UDS, or can implementation continue without that?
<cjwatson> (I'm happy either way, but now is the time to check)
<slangasek> no news is good news then ;)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:32.
<barry> thanks!
<slangasek> thanks, everyone - see you Sunday!
<stgraber> thanks!
<jhunt_> thanks
<stgraber> see you all in Budapest!
<barry> i'm already hungary!  <groan>
<psurbhi> thanks!
<cjwatson> psurbhi: hm, did you see my question above?
<psurbhi> cjwatson, yes
<psurbhi> i am planning to do a rediscussin
<psurbhi> now much better equipped
<psurbhi> had not thought of doing a session
<psurbhi> but can do
<psurbhi> sorry, for missing your question before saying thanks too soon :(
<cjwatson> well, you're not required to, that's up to you - but a note on the OneiricPlanning page would be good
<psurbhi> ok
<cjwatson> especially if you reckon a session would be useful
<psurbhi> I think a short session at least would help others see where we are right now
<psurbhi> and also get inputs on how we go about it
<psurbhi> yes! i do think it will be useful
<psurbhi> :)
 * psurbhi shall prepare for a short session
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-05-05
 * GrueMaster patently twiddles thumbs waiting for the meeting to start.
<ogra_> patently or petanted ?
<ogra_> lol
<ogra_> *patented
 * rsalveti waves
 * ogra_ thinks a patent on thimb twiddling could make you rich :)
<ogra_> *thumb
<ogra_> sigh, i shouldnt type today
 * GrueMaster grabs big stick, goes poking upstairs.
<ogra_> you really need two cans and a string between your office and his room
<GrueMaster> No, I need to wire his mattress with a remote cattle prod.
<ogra_> LOL
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra_> thats clever, so you dont hear his shouting and screaming :)
 * davidm is present
<NCommander> No real need to link to the discussion as theres oneitem
<NCommander> [topic] Specs!
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specs!
<ogra_> there is one ?
<ogra_> ah
 * NCommander is not really sure what to discuss at this point which wasn't broughtup last week
<ogra_> davidm, any news about the server stuff ?
<ogra_> do we have any details, does the server team do most of them etc etc ?
<davidm> It will be a mix of us and server team
<davidm> we will be the arm side they have the server expertise
<davidm> Should be interesting
<ogra_> yeah, i was more intrested in... are there any specs yet ?
<ogra_> :)
<davidm> There are
<davidm> under server
<GrueMaster> I can dust off a few older systems to act as load generators.
<ogra_> beyond that generic placeholder we currently have
<davidm> server-o-openstack
<ogra_> openstack ?
<davidm> That has to be done on both x86 and arm
<ogra_> hmm, intresting
 * ogra_ is just wearing the t-shirt ... 
<ogra_> funnily i dont know more about openstack than that they make good shirts :)
<davidm> I'll make a list don't have it handy now
<ogra_> ok
<janimo> hello, sorry for the delay
<ogra_> would be good to somehow have the team subscribed to them
<ogra_> so we know where we have to go
<ogra_> or at least make sure that in every arm relevant BOF at least one of us is present
 * ogra_ doesnt really have anything else
 * NCommander is currently planning to sit on the server BOFs
<davidm> I';ll  make sure to subscribe the team to all of them
<NCommander> is there anything we want to bring up pre-UDS?
<NCommander> If there is nothing else, I"m going to close the meeting
<NCommander> 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<ogra_> is there anything i need to bring since i come by car ?
<NCommander> ogra_: yoruself ideally
<ogra_> finish it !
<ogra_> yeah, my car wont come without me, i'm sure
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<ogra_> :)
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:20.
<bdmurray> okay lets the bugsquad meeting started
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is bdmurray.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Updates of action items from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updates of action items from previous meeting
<yofel> o/
<bdmurray> yofel: do you have something?
<yofel> nope, I wasn't assigned to anything last time
<bdmurray> okay
<bdmurray> nigelb said he is still working on edit bugsquad headers to be similar or link to each other appropriately at the end of the last meeting
<bdmurray> bdmurray email bugsquad regarding #ubuntu-bugs channel watchers
<bdmurray> After looking at #ubuntu-bugs channel logs I think we do a pretty good job of responding to people so did not do this.
<bdmurray> bdmurray email bugsquad regarding making +karma more informative
<bdmurray> That was done
<bdmurray> micahg to research available meeting times in #ubuntu-meeting
<hggdh> done also :-)
<bdmurray> well, that was clearly done because here we are!
<davidstrauss-nb> If I'd like to raise a topic, do I just use the [TOPIC] command?
 * davidstrauss-nb is new to bot-moderated meetings
<bdmurray> davidstrauss-nb: we have an open discussion section later in the meeting
<bdmurray> davidstrauss-nb: I'll change the topic throughout the meeting
<bdmurray> I've also put the next couple of bugsquad meetings on the fridge calendar
<bdmurray> micahg to add multiarch as an official bug tag
<bdmurray> that too was done
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Mentorship program discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mentorship program discussion
<bdmurray> vish: Do you have any news or anything to discuss on that topic?
<vish> oops!
<vish> o/
<hggdh> :-)
<vish> so, we have been having some progress recently..
<vish> but we are better than what we were 2 months ago
<vish> sorry, forgot meeting :D
<bdmurray> vish: no problem
<vish> any one else have any other Questions..?
 * hggdh will wait for UDS
<bdmurray> hggdh: is there something setup for mentorship and UDS?
<hggdh> bdmurray: no, I was considering only informal chats
<bdmurray> ah okay
<bdmurray> moving on
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] New bug control members
<MootBot> New Topic:  New bug control members
<bdmurray> We have no new members this week but one application to review although it may need some work
<hggdh> yeah, from Bjoern, right?
<pedro_> is that the latest from Bjoern?
<yofel> RedSingularity is new to BC
<pedro_> heh hggdh was faster
<hggdh> at last...
 * vish has one concern about the hardware team application..
<bdmurray> yofel: that's right! was just trying to confirm
<bdmurray> congrats to RedSingularity!
 * hggdh approved RedSingularity, and did not remember :-(
<bdmurray> hggdh: did you send an announce e-mail regarding his joining?
<hggdh> bdmurray: no, with all that was going on I forgot
<hggdh> s/was/is/
<bdmurray> hggdh: no problem, can you do it this week?  If not I can.
<hggdh> yes
<bdmurray> [ACTION] hggdh to announce RedSingularity joining ubuntu-bugcontrol
<MootBot> ACTION received:  hggdh to announce RedSingularity joining ubuntu-bugcontrol
<hggdh> vish: you have a concern, can you expand?
<vish> hggdh: i dont think batch approving the hardware team is good, they will be touching every package
<vish> not just a certain subset
<vish> right now, they already have 2 BC members
<yofel> ara said though that they'll review their own members
<vish> right,
<hggdh> and we will review their work
<ScottK> Then it should be easy enough for them to get approved when they think they are ready.
<vish> as I mention they already have 2 BC members, they can just +1
<yofel> true
<vish> and when the new members grow in that team, their numbers will grow, which makes it easier for review
<hggdh> I do not think they will, this would be gaming the resutls
<vish> batch approving is even worse ;)
<hggdh> heh
<bdmurray> Not more so then adding the whole team
<vish> atleast if the go through the BC process others can review the work
<hggdh> vish: team approval was considered as an option, but we still retain control
<bdmurray> I think this topic, team mebership in bug control, really warrants a larger discussion at UDS
<yofel> vish: then we need new evaluation criteria, as it stands now their applications is fine from our wiki point fo view on the matter
<hggdh> in a certain sense the hardware team is upstream -- they are looking for future issues
<hggdh> I would like, then, to propose we meet during UDS and rediscuss this
<vish> yofel: from what i understand, the team process was when teams were handling their packages or a subset.. not whole Ubuntu
<hggdh> (the process, not the HT itself)
<vish> so maybe as bdmurray mentions this warrants a discussion or update of the wiki
<yofel> having a specific subset isn't a criteria currently, +1 for UDS
<hggdh> +1
<vish> +1
<hggdh> vish: be prepared to discuss during beer time also ;-)
<bdmurray> So how about I set up a blueprint in Launchpad and email bug control about it?
<vish> ;)
<hggdh> good idea
<bdmurray> I'll also email Ara since she has an opinion and a couple of other people I've talked to
<bdmurray> Then we can discuss it at UDS
<ScottK> bdmurray: Would you please subscribe me to the spec.
<bdmurray> ScottK: of course
<ScottK> Thanks.
<bdmurray> [ACTION] bdmurray to draft a spec regarding criteria for (team) membership in ubuntu bug control
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bdmurray to draft a spec regarding criteria for (team) membership in ubuntu bug control
<bdmurray> [ACTION] bdmurray to email bug control about spec regarding bug control membership
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bdmurray to email bug control about spec regarding bug control membership
<bdmurray> [ACTION] bdmurray to subscribe ScottK to said specification
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bdmurray to subscribe ScottK to said specification
<bdmurray> are we all good there?
<hggdh> and the rest of the gang?
<hggdh> :-)
<bdmurray> hmm, I hope that's in the API now then ;-)
<yofel> just post a link to the bluepirint in the mail and we'll find it :P
<hggdh> meanwhile could we refrain from deciding about the team request? With UDS looming, it does not make sense to decide any way
<davidstrauss-nb> bdmurray, I have to leave in 5 min. Should I just plan to come back in a future meeting?
<hggdh>  davidstrauss-nb: you can also add a topic on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting (for future meetings)
<davidstrauss-nb> hggdh, thanks
<bdmurray> davidstrauss-nb: well its now time for open discussions
<davidstrauss-nb> :-)
<hggdh> heh
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Open Discussions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussions
<hggdh> davidstrauss-nb: go ahead, please
<davidstrauss-nb> So, something happened yesterday on a bug I posted that I found no less than angering.
<davidstrauss-nb> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/775842
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 775842 in evolution (Ubuntu) "Evolution crashes when a user changes an account to IMAP+ and clicks OK before the preferences panel changes tabs" [Medium,Incomplete]
<davidstrauss-nb> It was marked as invalid in a sort of drive-by way
<davidstrauss-nb> Not only does this sort of practice make little semantic sense (given the incomplete) option, it's also highly dismissive.
<davidstrauss-nb> Third, it discourages anyone else from participating on the bug because it was preemptively judged "invalid."
<yofel> hm
<ScottK> I'd like to second davidstrauss-nb's concern.  While this might have made some vague sense before, now that we have automatic bug expiry, there's no reason not to use incomplete for this.
<hggdh> this needs review, I agree with ScottK
<pedro_> the workflow needs to be reviewed then
<yofel> it's true that this was the old policy, since apport can't attach crashes to existing bugs, so we usually just closed it and used the new one
 * vish actually finds that the comment has the reason why it was closed
<yofel> though I personally agree this should be Incomplete
<vish> "a new bug report which can then dealt with more efficiently."
<pedro_> although crash reports needs to be filed with apport or provide/attach a good backtrace
<hggdh> bdmurray: can we use the same blueprint, expanding it for this?
<bdmurray> hggdh: no that's crazy
<pedro_> specially for cases like this where the bug is not easy to reproduce
<yofel> then again, a crash bug without any crash information is completely useless, so this bug would've been closed anyway
<vish> yofel: exactly!
<hggdh> and I also agree with pedro_ : crash reports without a crash are -- by definition -- unusable
<ScottK> That doesn't make them invalid.
<bdmurray> well there are steps to recreate it if you happen to have an imap server available
<ScottK> It makes them incomplete.
<hggdh> ScottK: I did not disagree with you, I just pointed the issues.
<hggdh> so we may need to change the SOP *and* the docs
<pedro_> bdmurray, tried that already, that's why I asked for the backtrace or i would get the backtrace myself like in other reports
<davidstrauss-nb> Even though apport can't attach to old bugs, "incomplete" is still a better classification. Then, the bug can either be (1) augmented with a crash report (2) marked as a dupe of an apport bug, or (3) allowed to expire
<vish> the problem here is maybe we can attach .crash files?
<vish> like as in, just $attach *.crash and it adds the info
<yofel> vish: not really, the retracer has to run, and you can't really make the bug private anymore
<pedro_> marked it as a duplicate of the newest sounds better to me
<bdmurray> pedro_: oh, perhaps davidstrauss-nb would feel better if he knew that?
<davidstrauss-nb> ideally, apport would encourage you to mark any recent bugs you filed as a dupe of the apport bug
<vish> err, meant "maybe we can't"
<hggdh> davidstrauss-nb: when we have a stacktrace, we can do that -- and we indeed do it
<davidstrauss-nb> bdmurray, What frustrates me is having my trouble report called "invalid" when you're actually just looking for more info.
<yofel> davidstrauss-nb: doesn't make much sense having apport tell you that, we already do, and apport has no way of knowing that you already filed a bug about this issue
<ScottK> If it's marked incomplete instead of invalid, the worst thing that can happen is it goes away in 60 days.
<ScottK> That seems like a small price to pay to avoid the social cost of marking them invalid.
<hggdh> +1
<yofel> +1
<vish> ScottK: worse it not fixing the bug ;)
<vish> s/it/is
<bdmurray> ScottK: I find that kind of ironic since all kubuntu bugs end up getting marked invalid in launchpad
<ScottK> vish: I don't understand how that relates.
<ScottK> bdmurray: wontfix might be better for that.
<ScottK> yofel: ^^^ ?
<vish> ScottK: simply closing the bug in 60 days, is not the worse thing :)
<ScottK> vish: Right, but in comparison to marking it invalid.
<yofel> hm... might be, requires BC rights of course then
<hggdh> there is the perceived impact -- ScottK is absolutely correct there
<yofel> yeah, Invalid is hardly ideal in many cases
<davidstrauss-nb> I have to head off, but ScottK was present for my rant yesterday in #launchpad and can reflect my thoughts here.
<davidstrauss-nb> :-)
<vish> maybe we should be fixing this in apport; we can ask the user to apport-collect and if the APPNAME.crash is present it attaches files if not then apport closes the bug?
<yofel> ScottK: agreed with Won't Fix, we need to think what to do about non-BC triagers though (not that we have any currently)
<bdmurray> The problem in my mind with closing Kubuntu bugs is it increases the possibility of duplicate bugs coming in because its hard to find closed bugs.
<yofel> vish: hm, maybe making apport close the bug would be an option, attaching the CoreDump isn't
<yofel> apport won't be able to dup the report though
<vish> yofel: cant apport also set the bug to private?
<yofel> vish: yes, but you have to remove all 'also notified' persons from the subscriber list then
<bdmurray> there are currently issues with transitioning bugs from public to private
<yofel> as 'ubuntu-bugs' is always subscirbed making the bug pretty impossible to make private again
<vish> hmm..
<yofel> BC members can unsubscribe it though
<bdmurray> it's not just ubuntu-bugs though
<bdmurray> any structural subscriber stays subscribed
<bdmurray> but lets get back on topic
<vish> yea, back to topic "pedro_ sucks" ;p
<vish> we need to update his version... pedro_2.0
<bdmurray> I think the primary issue here is that invalidating bug reports does not make for a nice bug reporter experience
<ScottK> Agreed.
<bdmurray> With automatic bug expiration and the bug janitor we have ways to make this better
<bdmurray> marginally but still
<bdmurray> So we should review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense
<hggdh> yes
<yofel> right
<vish> btw, does anyone know why Opinion status still exists?
 * vish thought it was a 3month experiment
<bdmurray> Is there anybody who can volunteer to review the bug workflows?
<hggdh> I will do it -- as long as it is not time-critical (will take a few days)
<bdmurray> hggdh: okay thanks
<bdmurray> [ACTION] hggdh to review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense and email bugsquad regarding results
<MootBot> ACTION received:  hggdh to review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense and email bugsquad regarding results
<bdmurray> vish: I'd check with deryck since he worked on that a fair bit
<vish> ok
<bdmurray> any other business?
<hggdh> minimum we need to update the wiki, where it says opinion is temporary
 * hggdh is done
 * vish too , medium rare
<hggdh> LOL
<yofel> do we have blueprints for the bugsquad already? Didn't find much on launchpad yet
<bdmurray> yofel: no, not really. is there something you had in mind?
<yofel> not aside the general roadmap discussions, was just wondering
<bdmurray> yofel: if you could set one up with some discussion ideas we can get it scheduled
<bdmurray> okay, thanks everyone!
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:56.
<yofel> I'll think about it, I'll ping you when I have something
<yofel> and thanks for chairing  bdmurray :)
<bdmurray> yofel: thanks
<pitti> kees, mdz, Keybuk: TB meeting now?
<Keybuk> I think so
<pitti> so cjwatson sent an apology, mdz and sabdfl don't seem to be online, kees doesn't respond, hmm
<Keybuk> I suspect at least some are in budapest being powerpointed to death?
<pitti> the only thing on the ML that I can see is the status of Lubuntu, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-April/000835.html
<pitti> good point
<pitti> Keybuk: hopefully Impressed, not Powerpointed, though :)
<pitti> . o O { latex-beamer FTW }
<Keybuk> as I was saying to slangasek, I went to no-hands once
<Keybuk> around the time I decided to look for other jobs and leave Canonical
<Keybuk> I'm not saying the two are related
<Keybuk> but the inference is there
 * slangasek chuckles
<slangasek> kees is among the powerpointed, fwiw
<pitti> so, same time in a fortnight?
<Keybuk> sure
<pitti> I updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
 * pitti waves good night then
<kees> I was PDFed mostly
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-05-07
<Optimus_Prime> Ã³Â¸Ã¡Ã¨Ã¹Ã¥ Ã«Ã¥Ã±Ã­Ã®Ã¥
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-04-30
 * txomon|home is away: Estoy ocupado
<mdeslaur> \o
<kees> o/
<mdeslaur> hi kees
 * sbeattie waves
 * jjohansen \o
 * mdeslaur pokes at tyhicks with stick
<tyhicks> I'm here :)
<mdeslaur> ok, let's get started
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Apr 30 18:02:12 2012 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> thanks to jtaylor for his help on security updates for the community supported dropbear last week. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<mdeslaur> There are a lot of merge opportunities for packages listed in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/. Performing these updates is a great way to help Ubuntu and bolster your developer application.
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> I'm working on testing a couple of updates, and will be preparing my laptop for UDS
<mdeslaur> and I'm on triage, so I'll be skeet-shooting CVEs and bugs
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: tag, you're it
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place
<sbeattie> I'm working on an apparmor SRU for precise
<mdeslaur> cool
<sbeattie> I'm also doing UDS prep and will try to pick up an update as well.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: you're up
<mdeslaur> micahg is going to be late
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: you're up
<micahg> I'm working on Thunderbird 12.0.1, apparmor SRUs for the Firefox/Thunderbird path changes
<mdeslaur> oh!
<mdeslaur> micahg: sorry :)
 * micahg is here :)
<micahg> UDS travel/prep
<micahg> and webkit if there's any time left
<micahg> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm on community this week
<tyhicks> I'm finishing up testing of an update for an embargoed issue and will publish it this afternoon/evening
<tyhicks> I have another embargoed issue to work on after that
<tyhicks> top secret status this week :)
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: hehe :)
<tyhicks> and I need to update a few UDS blueprints and subscribe to a number of others
<tyhicks> I think that is it
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I have a little more work to do on the apparmor SRU for precise as well, some more testing of the kernel patches etc
<jjohansen> I am also working on the dbus prototype so we can get it back up and in a ppa before uds
<jjohansen> besides that the usual UDS prep/pulling out of hair wondering how UDS has snuck up on me again
<jjohansen> thats it for me mdeslaur back to you
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: time flies when you're having kernel fun
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/varnish.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/squid3.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libjifty-dbi-perl.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/proftpd-dfsg.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/hypermail.html
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: you know it
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> zzzzzzzz
<mdeslaur> thanks micahg, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, kees!
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Apr 30 18:12:52 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-30-18.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-30-18.02.html
<micahg> thanks mdeslaur
<tyhicks> thanks mdeslaur!
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: thanks
<soren> TB meeting?
<soren> Or am I going nuts?
<micahg> soren: 1 hr off :)
<soren> It was this hour last time.
<micahg> yes, but that was since everyone that was coming showed up an hour early
<micahg> it's still in the fridge for 21:00
<soren> Awesomesauce.
 * soren will check back in an hour.
<cjwatson> soren: ...
<soren> Yeah, just noticed the time.
<soren> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Apr 30 21:03:35 2012 UTC.  The chair is soren. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<soren> #topic action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
<soren> None recorded.
 * soren looks at logs to verify
<soren> Matt will take care of updating ~uds-organizers per https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-April/001239.html
<soren> mdz: ^ ?
<cjwatson> Pretty sure I saw that get done.
<cjwatson> mdz sent his apologies.
<cjwatson> (Are we actually quorate?)
<soren> Good point.
<soren> kees, mdz, pitti?
<soren> (stgraber sent apologies)
<soren> Oh, mdz sent apologies, too? I missed that.
<soren> Oh, and pitti.
<cjwatson> Yes.
<soren> Yeah, that makes it hard to reach quorum :)
<cjwatson> So only if kees is around.
<soren> What do we usually do? Just have the meeting regardless, and defer decisions to e-mail?
<soren> Or skip the meeting altogether?
<cjwatson> There's no significant business, AFAICS
<soren> It's not like the agenda is..
<soren> right.
<cjwatson> We might as well skip it in that case
 * soren is cool with that
<soren> My mind was clearly elsewhere anyway :)
<soren> Alright.
<soren> I'll chair the next one, too.
<soren> This one hardly counts.
<soren> :)
<soren> Any (other) business?
<soren> Guess not.
<soren> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Apr 30 21:10:03 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-30-21.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-30-21.03.html
<cjwatson> Nope.  The one thing I might have brought up (syncing from testing vs. unstable) I think I'll bring up at UDS instead.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-05-01
<jamespage> o/
<lynxman> o/
<arosales> Hello
<arosales> utlemming: are you up for the chair today?
<utlemming> sure...let me pull up the docs
<zul> hello
<utlemming> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue May  1 16:02:20 2012 UTC.  The chair is utlemming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<adam_g> o/
<utlemming> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<s3h> \o
<utlemming> :( we seem to be missing logs from last week....so we'll wing it
<utlemming> Anyone have any topics from last week?
<SpamapS> We didn't really have any
<utlemming> I didn't think we would
<SpamapS> hence my not putting any in the agenda
<SpamapS> I did forget to post the meetingology logs, whoops
<utlemming> We do have one glaring elephant in the room....well done all on the Precise's release
<arosales> +1
<SpamapS> *\o/*
<zul> sheesh finally..
<SpamapS> +12.04
<arosales> breaking out the pom poms SpamapS :-)
<SpamapS> I never really put them away actually.. :)
<arosales> who does, right?
<SpamapS> only the non-believers
<jamespage> **\o/**
<utlemming> well, moving on....
<utlemming> #topic Quantal Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Quantal Development
<arosales> 5 bugs we are tracking @ http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<arosales> SpamapS: are you working on bug 930916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 930916 in amavisd-new (Ubuntu) "amavis start-stop script fails to stop amavisd" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/930916
<SpamapS> arosales: no, but I promise to look at it this week
<SpamapS> At this point though
<arosales> SpamapS: ok, thanks
<SpamapS> those are all just SRU's
<arosales> s3h: is the workaround still valid for bug 974584?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 974584 in sysvinit (Ubuntu) "Semaphores cannot be created in lxc container" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/974584
<arosales> that was my next question, are all these candidates for SRUs?
<arosales> SpamapS: so  bug 930916 is a SRU candidate, correct?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 930916 in amavisd-new (Ubuntu) "amavis start-stop script fails to stop amavisd" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/930916
<s3h> arosales: yes
<arosales> s3h: for 974584 is there also a fix?
<s3h> not yet
<s3h> needs to be done in initscripts
<s3h> i is fjeered of those
<SpamapS> arosales: all of those are.. if they were release tracked they were important enough to want in precise.
<arosales> ok, is that a SRU ?
<arosales> SpamapS: ok
<s3h> is which SRU?
 * arosales will stop asking then 
<arosales> s3h: bug 974584 for an SRU once the fix is available
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 974584 in sysvinit (Ubuntu) "Semaphores cannot be created in lxc container" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/974584
<arosales> but SpamapS just enlightened me :-)
<s3h> no.  workaround is fine for precise and lower
<s3h> only need a initscript fix in q+
<arosales> s3h: ah ok.
<arosales> next bug on the list
<arosales> bug 880339
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880339 in mysql-5.5 (Ubuntu Precise) "AppArmor profile needs update" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880339
<SpamapS> still no response
<arosales> looks to be marked as incomplete
<arosales> same with the next one, bug 907197
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907197 in nova (Ubuntu) "ip address can't be injected into the instance when using lxc " [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907197
<arosales> an of course openstack
<arosales> bug 901881
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901881 in glance (Ubuntu) "nova and glance should depend on python-keystone" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901881
<SpamapS> those statuses are not always reliable tho
<arosales> zul: looks like you are working on that one
<SpamapS> err, n/m those are right
<arosales> ok, I'll circle back to bug 907197
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907197 in nova (Ubuntu) "ip address can't be injected into the instance when using lxc " [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907197
<zul> arosales: yeah need to get quantal open first
<arosales> jamespage: sill no response on that one?
<arosales> zul: ok, thanks.
<jamespage> arosales, no
<jamespage> and no one else can repro
<arosales> jamespage: ok so incomplete still valid.
<jamespage> yes
<arosales> and wrap up on blueprints
<arosales> for P
<arosales> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-server.html
<arosales> 95% overall status.
<arosales> I guess at this point we should be making new blueprints, and postponing and past work items.
<zul> wh00t
<SpamapS> wait, precise is released
<SpamapS> its 100% whether our graphs show it or not :)
<arosales> :-)
<arosales> rbasak: can you take a look at servercloud-p-arm-service-orchestration
<arosales> that one shows 92%, but I am not seeing the work items that still needs to be done.
<rbasak> arosales: hmm, nor do I
<SpamapS> Validate IPMI on hardware: BLOCKED
<arosales> zul: does  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-openstack need updated
<rbasak> Oh
<rbasak> thanks SpamapS
<arosales> looks like MIR is in progress for horizon
<zul> arosales: ill update it
<m_3> do we manually copy postponed items from p blueprints to q blueprints?
<arosales> zul thanks
<SpamapS> anything still open should be moved to POSTPONED. If we need to get it done, thats a new BP for quantal
<rbasak> Now postponed. We never got hardware for that.
<SpamapS> Or tack it onto something related for quantal
<ScottK> SpamapS: It'd be nice if you assigned yourself the postfix stuff you didn't do last cycle so you can defer it again later.
<arosales> s3h: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-lxc also showing some tasks remaining
<arosales> rbasak: could you take a  quick look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-arm-system-management
<s3h> oh?
<s3h> yeah but that's smoser's :)
<arosales> SpamapS: and M_3 I think are still working https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-juju-charm-testing
<s3h> i'll postpone it
<arosales> s3h:  thanks
<smoser> which is mine?
<rbasak> arosales: postponed
<arosales> rbasak: thanks
<SpamapS> ScottK: that stings. ;)
<s3h> smoser: open bug for libvirt to check capsys-module, capmac*:
<smoser> got it.
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-cloud-ha also has some open tasks
<ScottK> SpamapS: Eventually you're going to get tired of the exit 75 bugs and do something.
<arosales> ivoks has a todo there
<arosales> adam_g: are you still working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-openstack-charms ?
<m_3> arosales: that remaining blocked item in juju-charm-testing can be postponed I think
<SpamapS> ScottK: I did!
<SpamapS> ScottK: there's a bug pattern. But we give users the option to still submit it.
<ScottK> I see.
<SpamapS> ScottK: which, perhaps we should take away. :)
<arosales> m_3: thanks
<arosales> s3h: another one that has your name https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-libvirt
<ScottK> SpamapS: Since exit 75 is by definition not a bug, as long as we explain it, I think that makes sense.
<arosales> s3h: [serge-hallyn] enable netcf: BLOCKED
<adam_g> arosales: i thought i closed that one out . i was working on the swift stuff last week but blocked on a juju bug
<arosales> utlemming: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-pushing-cloud
<SpamapS> ScottK: I think we wanted to get some feedback from affected users who thought their hostname was ok.
<s3h> i figurd blocked = postponed
<adam_g> arosales: when that fix lands i plan on finishing up.
<SpamapS> blocked must be postponed at this point
<arosales> adam_g:  thanks
<SpamapS> there is no DONE
<SpamapS> DONE is for Q :)
<SpamapS> start piling up green for Q now :)
<arosales> jamespage: could you follow up on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-p-java
<arosales> ok, those are the ones I saw on my quick scan
<jamespage> arosales, thats getting a revised spec for quantal
<arosales> jamespage: ok thanks
<arosales> also make sure blueprints for Q are submitted
<arosales> especially ones that need sessions
<arosales> unless anyone else had any other blueprint comments
<arosales> utlemming: back to you
<utlemming> :)
<utlemming> #topic Ubunut Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubunut Server Team Events
<utlemming> er...
<utlemming> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<utlemming> we have UDS next week in Oakland, CA
<arosales> m_3 @ NodeConf May 8
<SpamapS> gimme a U, gimme a D, gimme an S, and give your liver at least 5 days to recover..
<m_3> product sprint beforehand
<smoser> also: http://uds.ubuntu.com/cloud-summit/
<utlemming> So a pretty active next couple of weeks
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<utlemming> hggdh: anything for us this week?
<utlemming> ping hggdh
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<utlemming> smb: hows the kernel look?
<utlemming> okay...moving on
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<utlemming> rbasak: do you have anything for us today?
<rbasak> Nothing to report. Any questions for me?
<SpamapS> rbasak: I can has? (Buy) one?
<rbasak> SpamapS: I'm not sure about that. But as of Thursday, you can install Ubuntu Server on it!
 * SpamapS installs Ubuntu Server on all sorts of mythical hardware in his sleep
<m_3> :)
<utlemming> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<SpamapS> I wanted to bring up just one thing about UDS
<utlemming> don
<utlemming> don
<utlemming> don't drink too much?
<SpamapS> Please make sure you come to UDS with points of decision to make, not just poitns of discussion.
<lynxman> *suspense music*
<SpamapS> Start the discussions now, on the mailing lists.
<SpamapS> Make sure people know the positions and facts before hand.
<SpamapS> Come with facts, and then the process will go much smoother.
 * SpamapS deposits his $0.02 in your brains, and shuts up.
<m_3> SpamapS: _now_ you tell us
<zul> SpamapS: also make sure you come prepared
<utlemming> any other topics?
<arosales> again, job well done on precise
<utlemming> #topic Announce next meeting data and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting data and time
<arosales> meeting next week?
<utlemming> Tues 15th May 1600 UTC -- back here again!
<utlemming> My understanding is that since it is UDS, we skip it.
<arosales> makes sense
<utlemming> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue May  1 16:38:44 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-01-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-01-16.02.html
<mhmodIbrhm> Helloo, when will the meeting start?
<cielak> mhmodIbrhm: I guess it should within few minutes
<cielak> shouldn't it start now? :-)
<utlemming> yeah, but sometimes patience is a virtue :)
<cielak> oh, hi utlemming :)
<utlemming> hello
<cielak> czajkowski, highvoltage: no EMEA meeting today?
<mhmodIbrhm> cielak: no meeting today?
<cielak> mhmodIbrhm: I have no idea, it should be scheduled for today
<MrChrisDruif> Apparently not?
<mhmodIbrhm> i know and i am waiting it too
<MrChrisDruif> cielak; it IS scheduled for now, should've started 15 minutes ago (according to the Fridge Calendar)
<highvoltage> oops
<czajkowski> oh
<highvoltage> sorry I forgot about it
<czajkowski> we've not expired
<czajkowski> we expire this week
<highvoltage> do we have quorum, and just as important, any applicants?
<czajkowski> drubin: ping
<utlemming> highvoltage: I believe all three of us are here
<czajkowski> we need 4 right
<highvoltage> yep
<czajkowski> utlemming: need 4 of us though
<czajkowski> pleia2: ping
<czajkowski> I've pinged folks but lots are travelling due to uds
<czajkowski> lifeless: ping
<lifeless> yo ?
<utlemming> czajkowski: lol...no, I was referring to the applicants -- I believe all three of us are here
<highvoltage> yeah it's really bad timing, we should have actually re-scheduled but it crept up on me
<czajkowski> lifeless: if we find 1 more person can you step in for emea meeting
<MrChrisDruif> stgraber; ping
<highvoltage> stgraber is on a bus atm
<lifeless> czajkowski: let me see if I'm still a member :P
<czajkowski> utlemming: indeed but we need 4 of EMEA for the meeting to happen
<czajkowski> we need 1 more
<MrChrisDruif> highvoltage; 3 applicants
<highvoltage> MrChrisDruif: thanks, I'm aware ;)
<czajkowski> greg-g: ping?
<lifeless> czajkowski: looks like I still am :)
<lifeless> expires in 23 hours or something
<czajkowski> me to for 2 more days
<lifeless> so yeah, I can step in
<czajkowski> we're just short a person now
<czajkowski> lifeless: cheers
<lifeless> I will need to run when Cynthia is ready for after-brekkie nap
<czajkowski> nods
<cielak> sigh
<czajkowski> highvoltage: any luck ?
<highvoltage> Pendulum: around?
<Pendulum> highvoltage: yes
<czajkowski> oh great
<highvoltage> Pendulum: could you lend a hand with membership?
<czajkowski> please :D
<Pendulum> as long as no one minds if I disappear for 2 minutes at some point when my room service shows up and I have to open the door :P
<highvoltage> no problem
<highvoltage> who's charing?
<czajkowski> highvoltage: you
<czajkowski> :)
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue May  1 20:22:45 2012 UTC.  The chair is highvoltage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<highvoltage> Welcome to this month's EMEA RMB meeting
<highvoltage> and apologies for the late start
<czajkowski> AlanBell: is also gonna join to help
<highvoltage> applications will be called one by one. please have a short introduction ready
<AlanBell> hi all
<highvoltage> This month's applications are: utlemming, cielak and mhmodIbrhm
<highvoltage> cielak: ready? :)
<cielak> yes!
<highvoltage> #topic cielak
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: cielak
<highvoltage> cielak: please introduce yourself
<cielak> so, my name is RafaÅ CieÅlak, and have been a full-time Ubuntu user since 4.5 years
<cielak> and since then I've always wanted to contribute to Ubuntu & the community
<czajkowski> cielak: hi thanks for coming
<cielak> :-)
<highvoltage> for some reason I thought you were an Ubuntu member already :)
<cielak> I particularly enjoy providing user support at AskUbuntu
<cielak> during 2 years I have gathered 3,000+ rep points
<cielak> I also contribute code to Ubuntu
<cielak> so I did to fix few bugs in Unity
<highvoltage> cielak: if you could change any one thing in the ubuntu community, what would that be?
<cielak> and now I ma heavily involved in Ubuntu Accomplishment System
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RafalCieslak
<cielak> by programming & documantation
<cielak> well, I guess there is one thing that needs being improved
<highvoltage> (oosh, I was lookng at the wrong wiki page)
<cielak> it's introducing new developers - programmers - who might be helpful in many Ubuntu related projects
<highvoltage> cielak: if you could change any one thing in the Ubuntu community, what would that be?
<cielak> in my opinion we do not encourage them enough
<cielak> and I have met with situation that some of them were convinced that it's a hard thing
<cielak> so that's what needs fixing IMO
<cielak> also
<cielak> there is Polish LoCo
<cielak> which I guess is a great example of what a LoCo should not be
<czajkowski> cielak: why is that ?
<cielak> there is quite a broad community, but it all ends with endless flamewars, which brings Ubuntu bad reputation, here in Poland
<cielak> the "official" polish ubuntu sites & forum are badly maintained, and are incredibly unhelpful
<lifeless> got to run, baby to put down for naptime
<lifeless> czajkowski: you're not in -rmb
<czajkowski> highvoltage: I've no more questions
<highvoltage> ok lets vote
<cielak> fixing that will of course require lots of efforts and I won't be able to fix it on my own
<highvoltage> #vote cielak for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: cielak for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<AlanBell> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
<highvoltage> +1 [ great sustained involvement ]
<meetingology> +1 [ great sustained involvement ] received from highvoltage
<highvoltage> Pendulum?
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<highvoltage> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: cielak for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cielak> \o/ :)
<highvoltage> cielak: congratulations and welcome!
<SpamapS> utlemming next?
<cielak> thanks! :)
<highvoltage> yes
<SpamapS> I want to say he's awesome and must go soon
<highvoltage> sorry, I messed up the order a bit
* highvoltage changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: utlemming
<highvoltage> SpamapS: acknowledged :)
<highvoltage> utlemming: your turn! please tell us a bit about yourself
<utlemming> Hi, my name is Ben Howard (utlemming). I am currently am the currator of the Ubuntu Cloud Images. I'm a technical, albeit, non-packaging person. My contributions to Ubuntu involve setting up new Cloud image infrastructure, building new cloud deployment metholodogies, and maintaining the images at http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com. I am a Canonical employee. I am applying for membership here instead of through the developer board since I don't really
<utlemming> do much packaging work.
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ben_Howard%28utlemming%29
<AlanBell> that is a lot of code :) https://code.launchpad.net/~utlemming
<utlemming> Yes it is :)
<highvoltage> utlemming: could you tell us a little about what building new cloud images entails? do you plan to involve the community at all with that, and is it even possible?
<utlemming> Yes, it is very possiable.
<utlemming> One of the things that I am working on right now is to enable the community to be able to take our base image and then change it
<utlemming> Also, I'm holding a UDS session where I am trying to get more input from the users
<highvoltage> great :)
<highvoltage> any other questions, comments or cheers?
<SpamapS> utlemming is extremely knowledgable
<SpamapS> and helpful to users in #ubuntu-cloud and #ubuntu-server
<SpamapS> He will do a great honor to the @ubuntu.com email domian. :)
<czajkowski> utlemming: how would you like to help the community more?
<highvoltage> :)
<czajkowski> and get them more involved?
<utlemming> 1) gather input and find out where the images need work or are not meeting people's needs
<utlemming> to this point, I have several meetings set up with communitity users next week to talk about it
<highvoltage> great, I'm sure you have more ideas, but it's time to put it to vote
<utlemming> 2) being active on the relevant email lists -- which is helping to generate disucssion. I've learned that by interacting with the community that I can get important feedback, and more imporantly help the community use the images
<highvoltage> #vote utlemming for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: utlemming for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<highvoltage> +1 [ continued good work on cloud images and improving community involvement through support and advocacy ]
<meetingology> +1 [ continued good work on cloud images and improving community involvement through support and advocacy ] received from highvoltage
<AlanBell> +1 significant and sustained
<meetingology> +1 significant and sustained received from AlanBell
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<highvoltage> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: utlemming for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<utlemming> :)
<cielak> congrats utlemming! :)
 * utlemming is happy
<highvoltage> utlemming: congratulations and welcome :)
<SpamapS> \o/
* highvoltage changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: mhmodibrhm
<mhmodIbrhm> congrats. ultemning & cielak :)
<highvoltage> mhmodIbrhm: hi! you're up next :)
<highvoltage> please introduce yourself
<mhmodIbrhm> yes, i am ready :)
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mahmoud%20Ibrahem
<mhmodIbrhm> i am Mahmoud Mohamed i started using ubuntu for 4 years i joint my loco team since 2009
<mhmodIbrhm> and i co-organized our first 2 events for the team in my faculty
<czajkowski> wow impressive wiki page
<mhmodIbrhm> and i always being contributed with them till we got approved
<mhmodIbrhm> thanks :)
<mhmodIbrhm> i think i finished the short introduction :)
<czajkowski> mhmodIbrhm: so what would you change in the ubuntu community ?
<highvoltage> mhmodIbrhm: how is the revival of the LoCo team coming along?
<highvoltage> (and if you could change anything in your loco, what would that be?)
<mhmodIbrhm0> i am sorry i am suffering from a bad internet connection this night
<lifeless> back
<AlanBell> you are not a big user of launchpad (unless your profile changed or something), where do you mainly do online stuff? IRC/Forums/Askubuntu/other?
<lifeless> ah, I see AlanBell is here now, I'll quietly head off to do other things ;)
<highvoltage> mhmodIbrhm: no problem, if you lose your connection of feel that you've missed a question, please let us know
<AlanBell> lifeless: noo, don't leave me!
<highvoltage> mhmodIbrhm0: are you still there?
<mhmodIbrhm2> i am sorry
<mhmodIbrhm> i am sorry, i am suffering from a bad Internet connection this night
<mhmodIbrhm> but i am ready now, highvoltage
<AlanBell> you are not a big user of launchpad (unless your profile changed or something), where do you mainly do online stuff? IRC/Forums/Askubuntu/other?
<highvoltage> mhmodIbrhm: ok, how is the revival of the Egyption loco going? Are there still any big problems that you'd like to do something about?
<mhmodIbrhm> i always communicate with my team
<mhmodIbrhm> throug the mailing list
<mhmodIbrhm> and i always help the new users in our facebook group
<highvoltage> any last questions/comments/cheers for mhmodIbrhm?
<mhmodIbrhm> no we are doing great :)
<highvoltage> good to hear :)
<MrChrisDruif> Yay!
<mhmodIbrhm> and we are looking forward for more events and we start our structure
<highvoltage> #vote mhmodIbrhm for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: mhmodIbrhm for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<highvoltage> +1 [ great sustained contribution to LoCo community in Egypt and good Ubuntu advocacy ]
<meetingology> +1 [ great sustained contribution to LoCo community in Egypt and good Ubuntu advocacy ] received from highvoltage
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<czajkowski> +2
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<highvoltage> AlanBell?
<AlanBell> +1 hope you continue to help the loco to grow
<meetingology> +1 hope you continue to help the loco to grow received from AlanBell
<highvoltage> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: mhmodIbrhm for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<highvoltage> mhmodIbrhm: congratulations and welcome
<czajkowski> whoo welcome aboard folks
<cielak> congrats mhmodIbrhm! :)
<cielak> thanks for your time everybody!
<mhmodIbrhm> thanks you all :)
<highvoltage> cielak, utlemming, mhmodIbrhm: You have been added to ~ubuntu-members
<czajkowski> highvoltage: it's been fun on the board with you :)
<highvoltage> it may take up to 24 hours for your @ubuntu.com email address to take effect
<czajkowski> AlanBell: lifeless Pendulum thank you for stepping in
<highvoltage> if you have problems, please contact rt@ubuntu.com with the details
<cielak> highvoltage: right, thanks! :)
<highvoltage> (or ask any of us on IRC)
<cielak> also, whom should I contact to get an IRC cloak?
<highvoltage> We're not scheduling a next meeting yet, since we have some pending restructuring currently.
<highvoltage> more details will be announced publicly soon.
<highvoltage> Thank you for attending this month's EMEA RMB meeting!
<highvoltage> and thank you to AlanBell, Pendulum and czajkowski for reviewing
<highvoltage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue May  1 20:57:33 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-01-20.22.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-01-20.22.html
<AlanBell> cielak: please join #ubuntu-irc to request it
<AlanBell> same goes for mhmodIbrhm and utlemming
<cielak> right, thanks ;)
<mhmodIbrhm> ok thanks you AlanBell
<highvoltage> members added, mail sent
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-05-02
<kanliot> yawn
 * stgraber waves
<infinity> o/
 * xnox high-5
<ev> hi
 * slangasek waves
 * ogra_ shores
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology`> Meeting started Wed May  2 15:03:37 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson xnox)
<slangasek> doko stgraber cjwatson slangasek barry xnox jodh ogra ev infinity bdmurray
<slangasek> $
<ogra_> â¬
<slangasek> Â£
<slangasek> doko: you first :)
<doko> - gcc updates for quantal
<doko> - investigate and fix arm biarch builds
<doko> - may 1st was bank holiday
<doko> (done)
<stgraber> Was off Friday and Tuesday:
<stgraber> - Blueprints
<stgraber>  - Registered community-q-edubuntu, foundations-q-ltsp, foundations-q-iso-tracker and foundations-q-networking
<stgraber> - Installer
<stgraber>  - Merged some dconf improvements and turned on compositing in the installer.
<stgraber>  - Fixed some netboot bugs and turned on cifs support in casper.
<stgraber>  - Merged os-prober from Debian
<stgraber> - Release
<stgraber>  - ISO testing
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu/Edubuntu 12.04 release.
<stgraber> - TODO this week
<stgraber>  - Look for any missing blueprint and register them
<stgraber>  - Continue with merges (currently working on ifupdown)
<stgraber>  - Push some SRUs (nagios-nrpe and ldm are currently on my list)
<stgraber> (DONE)
<cjwatson> Release sprint.  Nothing went too badly wrong. :-)
<cjwatson> Opened quantal and got auto-syncs running.  Some degree of fighting with Launchpad, but less than usual.  Piles of merges.
<cjwatson> Removed the data.tar.xz dpkg Pre-Depends requirement from Launchpad.
<cjwatson> Sorted out a few specs.
<cjwatson> Got a bit carried away with update-manager and ubiquity Python 3 porting.  Lots of dependencies still, and I haven't got much into bytes/unicode data modelling, but making good progress on tests.
<cjwatson> .
<slangasek>  * upstart in Debian:
<slangasek>   * prereq patches for lsb, sysvinit, and debhelper are done or pending
<slangasek>   * hacking on invoke-rc.d to implement the Debian policy proposal (doing what /lib/init/upstart-job does currently)
 * infinity nudges Mr Manager.
<slangasek>   * plymouth patches wanted for mountall, looking at it this week
<slangasek>  * SRUs for multiarch libraries, hdparm, other things
<slangasek>  * fix upgrade issue in libnfsidmap (bug #933870)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 933870 in libnfsidmap (Ubuntu) "libnfsidmap2 fails to install" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/933870
<slangasek>  * don't restart kdm on eglibc upgrade (bug #985735)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 985735 in eglibc (Ubuntu) "update-manager restarts KDM and interrupts update process" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/985735
<slangasek>  * help fix upgrade issues with python (bug #986374)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 986374 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "oneiric->precise upgrade failed: E:Internal Error, Could not early remove python-minimal" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/986374
<slangasek>  * sponsor upstart fixes from James
<slangasek>  * merges merges merges
<slangasek>  * python3 porting: bluez ported (thanks Laney for the upload), gdb breaking my brain
<slangasek>  * UDS planning - get those blueprints in, everybody!
<barry> slangasek, cjwatson: \o/
 * barry assumes slangasek is done...
<barry> (reporting for last two weeks)  py3 porting status: debian bug 669301 (py3 packaging for python-openssl, should probably temporarily delta this into quantal).  freedesktop bug 48904 (backward compat problem w/ dbus.gobject_service).  worked on packaging for python-mode.el for sid.  released flufl.* packages with updated cheeseshop py3 trove classifiers.  also spent some time on bug 924079 before release, but punted.  reviewed debian bug
<barry> 625509 (debian-python port).  reviewed slangasek's patch for bluez py3.  bug 990145 (remove gwibber dependency on mx.DateTime).  bug 992195 (remove duplicity dependency on GnuPGInterface).  TODO: will be sprinting w/local pythonistas tomorrow on pep 420 (namespace packages for py3.3) and continue with bug 992195.  done.
<slangasek> er yes, sorry
<ubottu> Debian bug 669301 in pyopenssl "pyopenssl: Build the Python 3 version of the package" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/669301
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 48904 in python "switching from pygobject2 to pygi in 1.0 was an incompatible change" [Normal,Reopened: ] http://bugzilla.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48904
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924079 in apt (Ubuntu Oneiric) "do-release-upgrade fails to upgrade from Oneiric to Precise: Couldn't configure pre-depend libtinfo5 for libncurses5, probably a dependency cycle" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924079
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 990145 in Gwibber "Remove dependency on mx.DateTime" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/990145
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 992195 in Duplicity "Remove dependency on GnuPGInterface" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/992195
<xnox>  did hr/new employee procedure tasks, some are still pending
<xnox> - finished testing lvm2 merge, it got updated in debian,
<xnox>   remerged, needs further retest
<xnox> - did one sync request (libgpg-error)
<xnox> - finishing up merging sudo, should be ready for sponsorship later
<xnox> - created uds spec, wrt failing hardware notifications
<xnox> - just did a merge proposal for boost1.49 transition tracker
<xnox> NEXT
<infinity> jodh: You're up, since you were disconnected for the randomizer. ;)
<slangasek> xnox: I'd like to upload lvm2 .88 now and worry about .95 later, especially since .88 is the most recent version that I know upstream recommends
<xnox> slangasek: ok.
<slangasek> xnox: but I'll test it on my own system first before doing so
<slangasek> either way, good to have one of our top packages knocked off of http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/oldmerges/ :)
 * ogra_ wonders if there is actually a human being behind the jodh nick :)
 * ogra_ just moves forward for now 
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_> * more compiz upgrades right before/on release
<ogra_> * omap, omap4 and ac100 release image tests
<ogra_> * may 1st was labour day in germany ...
<ogra_> * packaged the new nvidia tegra armhf driver (sadly very buggy on the ac100 atm (suspiciously looks like the GPU hardlocks
<ogra_>   after a while, nvidia devs are notified)) (the test package can be found at http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/nvidia-tegra/ atm)
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_> * merges: i only have procps on the list, feel free to drop stuff on me, else i'll randomly grab bits off the list
<ogra_> * pondering if we shouldnt have a spec for MBR and partition table backup/restore
<ogra_>   (i know that came up various times in the past but i couldnt find a spec for it)
<ogra_> UDS:
<ogra_> registered https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-embedded-rootfs
<ogra_> registered https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-hwpack-integration
<ogra_> (done)
<slangasek> ev:
<ev> - http://errors.ubuntu.com is live, though due to a programming error, things
<ev>   went down over the weekend. Fortunately, the system is designed to cope with
<ev>   this and clients resent crashes when it came back up on Monday. We're still
<ev>   getting things hooked into the webops pager system.
<ev> - Fixed a few bugs that have arisen in the web side of the crash database
<ev>   since release.
<ev> - Fixed a critical bug in apport as version 2.0.1-0ubuntu7. We were directing
<ev>   people to launchpad.net post-release.
<ev> - We now have (the start of) a web API for the crash reporting statistics.
<ev>   This was initially written to provide webops with a means on monitoring the
<ev>   health of the retracers.
<ev> - Created the 12.04 USB disks for the store.
<ev> - As it turns out, 4 i386 and 4 amd64 retracer instances wasn't enough
<ev>   post-release. Initial testing suggests we could get by with about 16 of
<ev>   each. We'll also need a lot more disk space, as between the backlog of core
<ev>   dumps and the per-retracer per-release caches we're quickly eating up the
<ev>   existing disk. Worked with webops to rememedy the immediate problem. New
<ev>   hardware is on order.
<ev> - Registered blueprints for UDS:
<ev>   - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-crash-database
<ev>   - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-metrics
<ev>   - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-updates-from-crash-reports
<ev>   - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-fix-ddebs
<ev>   - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-bucketing-improvements
<ev>   - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-phased-updates
<ev> - Worked with Matthew to try to write a better mean time between failures
<ev>   algorithm. Mathematicians wanted.
<ev> - Built out support to collect statistics on the release, package, version,
<ev>   year, month, and day level (and combinations therein).
<ev> - Started moving the web UI to consuming its own API to generate the charts,
<ev>   in support of being able to switch chart views via fancy-pants AJAX.
<ev> - Discussed the http://errors.ubuntu.com design with Matthew, Kate, and Colin.
<ev>   If you get a chance, I'd love your thoughts in reply to the email I sent
<ev>   about it on April 13th.
<ev> (done)
<ev> I'll post some fun stats during AOB
<infinity> ev: When will errors.ubuntu.com be usable by !canonical people (or will it ever?)
<infinity> - Release sprint last week:
<infinity>   - 12.04 got released, rather uneventfully
<infinity>   - 12.10 got opened while no one was looking
<infinity> - This week:
<infinity>   - Fixed d-shlibs to deal with the armhf linker
<infinity>   - Fixed a few bugs in the fpc/armhf bootstrap
<infinity>   - Worked on fixing some llvm/clang-on-arm issues
<infinity>   - Rebootstrapped the tex* stack to sort out an
<infinity>     accidental out-of-order sync that blew up the world
<infinity>   - Registered and fiddled with spec for UDS.
<infinity> ...
<ev> infinity: well, I'm not shouting about it from the rooftops yet as the code could use some performance improvements
<ev> and I really, really, really don't want Hacker News hitting it
<ev> just yet
<slangasek> ev: speaking of retracers, I noticed the backtraces shown in the errors reports don't appear to be a 'bt full' - is there any plan to make this available?
<infinity> ev: Sure, but I mean it's currently behind SSO demanding that you're in the canonical group. :)
<slangasek> it's relevant often enough that I think we should have it by default
<ev> infinity: but the game plan is canonical group + bug control being able to access the actual reports
<ev> just like on launchpad
 * infinity nods.
<Laney> use ubuntu-dev instead for now, or bugcontrol?
<ev> slangasek: can you provide me with an example?
<ev> it's definitely not intentional
<slangasek> ev: looking
 * bdmurray starts then
<bdmurray> bug triage of ubiquity, iso-testing and update-manager bug reports
<bdmurray> investigation into reporters submitting dist-upgrade bugs multiple times
<bdmurray> closed apport-package reports regarding package install failures due to not a debian package
<bdmurray> wrote a bugbot routine for 'not a debian format archive bug reports'
<bdmurray> closed texinfo bug reports due to a syntax error in /etc/environment
<bdmurray> whoopsie apport-package duplicate bug consolidation into bug 988995
<bdmurray> tried to recreate bug 987956 regarding ubiquity
<bdmurray> wrote a bug pattern for bug 937546
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988995 in whoopsie-daisy (Ubuntu) "package whoopsie 0.1.32 failed to install/upgrade: el subproceso instalado el script post-installation devolviÃ³ el cÃ³digo de salida de error 1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/988995
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987956 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer Deletes Contents from Separate HOME partition without WARNING!" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/987956
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 937546 in nautilus-dropbox (Ubuntu) "package nautilus-dropbox (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-removal script returned error exit status 2" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/937546
<bdmurray> reported apport bug 989929 regarding checking if a package is an ubuntu package
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 989929 in apport (Ubuntu) "does not check ubuntuness of packages being removed or upgraded" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/989929
<bdmurray> conversion of harvest opportunities from direct launchpad database queries to using the api
<bdmurray> blogged regarding duplicate bug title consolidation
<bdmurray> created a list of people who improved bug reports during the precise dev cycle for skaet
<bdmurray> investigation into remastersys and emailed contact person regarding bug 984276
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 984276 in casper (Ubuntu Precise) "installing casper on a non live system causes update-initramfs to fail" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/984276
<bdmurray> created a launchpad development virtual machine
<bdmurray> created a couple of blueprints for Q
<bdmurray> done
<slangasek> ev: "no symbol table info available", so maybe this was a missing debug symbol problem. https://errors.ubuntu.com/oops/008aa98e-92ea-11e1-b399-2c768aafd08c
<doko> msg infinity did you give back gcc-4.7? these mysterious give backs become annoying ...
<doko> oops
<slangasek> bdmurray: texinfo> can you give us a bug about fixing texinfo to not muck around in /etc/environment where it doesn't belong?
<infinity> doko: I did a mass-give-back of the world yesterday, nothing today...
<infinity> doko: But that wouldn't have hit PPAs, if your PPA upload is what got given-back.
<doko> right
<bdmurray> slangasek: yes, will do
<slangasek> ta
<slangasek> jodh: your turn, if you're around :)
<jodh> - boot/upstart: - Raised MP on quantal upstart to fix compile error.
<jodh> - planning/blueprints:
<jodh>   - discussions around multiseat.
<jodh>   - service readiness:
<jodh>     https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-upstart-service-readiness
<jodh>   - ptrace limitations:
<jodh>     https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-upstart-overcome-ptrace-limitations
<jodh> - libs/nih: bug 776532 (required for Upstart quantal work). Wrote tests and
<jodh>   tested. Approved by Keybuk.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 776532 in libnih "nih_dir_walk_scan passes incorrect value to file filter" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/776532
<jodh> - TODO:
<jodh>   - ConsoleKit+logind investigations + multiseat blueprint with robert_ancell.
<jodh>   - upstart job disabling blueprint.
<jodh>   - upstart state passing blueprint.
<jodh> â¨
 * slangasek feels all integrated
 * infinity feels dirty
<stgraber> jodh: can you make sure I'm subscribed to the multiseat blueprint? (I have an interest because of past experience with these and because of LTSP)
<jodh> stgraber: will do.
<slangasek> jodh: please also register a general "upstart roadmap" blueprint - we should have that session again just to make sure we're still aligned with what people need
<cjwatson> I didn't even know there *was* a quadruple integral operator.
<jodh> slangasek: ack.
<stgraber> jodh: thanks
<slangasek> anyone have questions over the above?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] UDS blueprints
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UDS blueprints
<slangasek> so with UDS half a week away, any remaining blueprints you mean to have on the schedule need to get in the system ASAP
<slangasek> tomorrow at the latest
<cjwatson> I've got "btrfs sync-up with server team" and "automated bootloader testing" to do from our call yesterday
<cjwatson> will register those today
<slangasek> and by Friday at the latest, please have a look at what's on the schedule for UDS and get yourself subscribed to the sessions you need to be at
<slangasek> so that the autoscheduler can do its work over the weekend
<slangasek> instead of having it throw conflicts at us Monday :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<infinity> (For the record, if people have sessions they think I should be at, feel free to subscribe me)
<ogra_> infinity, do we have an arm v8 spec btw ?
<infinity> Yep.
<slangasek> I expect that as usual none of you should have any trouble finding things to occupy your time at UDS; but if anyone should happen to feel they don't have enough that they're participating in, let me know
<ogra_> (assuming it would be yours if it exists)
<infinity> ogra_: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-aarch64-porting
<ogra_> thx
 * ogra_ subscribes
<infinity> Cleverly hidden under the arch name that no one knows.
<ogra_> hehe
<cjwatson> Anyone know if wookey's already planning to set up a quantal sbuild-ma buildd in time for UDS?
<slangasek> ev, bdmurray: incidentally, do you think one session about the crashdb is sufficient? (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-crash-database)
<cjwatson> I'd ask him directly but he's not on IRC right now
<slangasek> he's on #multiarch@OFTC :)
<slangasek> (I don't know)
<ev> slangasek: as in should we have foundations-q-crash-database-2?
<infinity> I was just about to mention he was on oftc. :P
 * ogra_ sees him in #linaro
<ev> or are you asking if we should split it out into more specs?
<slangasek> ev: as in, are there subtopics that warrant an hour of their own :)
<cjwatson> ah, I'll ask him there
<ev> slangasek: I'll give that a think tonight
<ev> it does link to some subtopics
<ev> but yeah, maybe the mean time between failures is an hour talk itself
<slangasek> ev: if it's simpler we can just block out multiple hours for the umbrella blueprint
<ev> yeah, lets do that
<slangasek> though sometimes that just means the first topic takes two hours and you never get to the end of the list ;)
<ev> heh
<ev> I'll still think about how we can further break this down tonight
<ev> but lets tentatively plan for two hours
<slangasek> any other concerns about blueprints at the moment?
<ogra_> any suggestions about hving a blueprint for a partition table and MBR backup restore ?
<ogra_> *having
<ogra_> (mentioned in my report above)
<slangasek> ogra_: I wasn't sure I understood the use case for this
<ogra_> having backups of your partition table in case you falsely change it ?
<slangasek> who does that though? :)
<ogra_> being able to restore a messed up MBR a user fiddled to death
<ogra_> dunno, i kno win the past having grub do backups on grub-update came up
<cjwatson> update-grub doesn't touch the partition table or the MBR
<ogra_> (and we had such discussions for u-boot as well)
<cjwatson> You may be thinking of grub-install
<ogra_> oh, indeed, wrong term, sorry
<slangasek> right, and grub-install doesn't get run except at install time
<cjwatson> I dunno, it seems like a special case of having good system backups
<ogra_> k, so its moot
 * xnox .oO(UEFI)
<slangasek> ogra_: I suspect we can't justify a session for it - but thanks for bringing it up
<ogra_> right, might make more sense in context of an advanced backup tool
<cjwatson> ... which we still don't do well
<slangasek> do we want system backups on the agenda?
<slangasek> or would that need to be desktop / server instead of foundations?
<ev> don't we have deja dup?
<ev> it sometimes manages to back up to u1
<cjwatson> ev: Have you ever tried to do system restores based on duplicity backups?
<cjwatson> I have.  It doesn't work.
<ev> cjwatson: yikes
<ogra_> heh ... sometimes
<cjwatson> (Among its faults, it stores file ownership by user/group name rather than number, so you can't reliably restore from a live CD without having to spend ages fiddling with permissions afterwards.  It's obviously meant as a single-user backup tool, not a system backup tool.)
<cjwatson> slangasek: I suspect nobody has time for it this cycle :-)
<slangasek> right-o
<slangasek> moving on then
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<cjwatson> Maybe I should talk to mterry and see if duplicity can be bludgeoned into the right shape, since it's clearly desktop's direction
<ev> cjwatson: noted - my experience with it has been fairly light
 * xnox bacula - is ok for system backups
<slangasek> bdmurray: are there any bugs showing up post-release that we should be worrying about SRUing?
<barry> duplicity is one of those py3 application ports, so there's even more to bludgeon mterry with :)
<slangasek> (ones that we aren't already)
 * stgraber uses a central backuppc server with rsync for all the Linux systems, works great but not exactly something we can fit in the default install
<bdmurray> slangasek: well, I ran across bug 988995 which reminded me of another bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988995 in whoopsie-daisy (Ubuntu) "package whoopsie 0.1.32 failed to install/upgrade: el subproceso instalado el script post-installation devolviÃ³ el cÃ³digo de salida de error 1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/988995
<bdmurray> bug 523896
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 523896 in shadow (Ubuntu) "useradd: cannot lock /etc/passwd; try again later." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/523896
<cjwatson> stgraber: Right, roughly me too, but it's all home-grown
<ev> yeah, I did ask about that in #ubuntu-devel
<ev> I'm not sure what else we can do if /etc/passwd is locked
<slangasek> 523896> the blocker there was that we haven't reached consensus with the upstream yet, so I was reluctant to diverge :/
<slangasek> ev, bdmurray: what's surprising is the large number of reports of it *being* locked, all of a sudden
<slangasek> Why should users not be seeing locked /etc/passwd until installing whoopsie?  Is it just that the stale lock has been there for years, but nothing has tried to add a new user on upgrade?
<infinity> Could be that.
<infinity> We don't add new users all that often.
<infinity> Unless you install something that does so, of course.
<cjwatson> Quite a few packages add users; odd that whoopsie would be a particularly common victim
<slangasek> so unless we think whoopsie is somehow misbehaving and *causing* the lock, the right thing to do is to fix the underlying lock
<slangasek> cjwatson: quite a few packages in the default desktop install that will add them on upgrade?
<cjwatson> I suppose it could be like man-db being victimised by trigger bugs
<cjwatson> Maybe not upgrade, no, though whoopsie's surely not the first
<cjwatson> Well, first in this case :)
<cjwatson> Anyway, I see no relevant misbehaviour in whoopsie.postinst
<slangasek> yep
<slangasek> and whoopsie certainly shouldn't be working around the lock if it's not buggily causing it in the first place
<slangasek> so the thing to do is to get the lock cleared (e.g., at boot)
<slangasek> cjwatson: any objections to clearing that lock file at boot?
<cjwatson> Seems fair
<infinity> Seems reasonable (ish) to me, if we've confirmed that shadow/passwd inconsistency is avoided in other ways.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> bdmurray: any others?
<ev> https://errors.ubuntu.com/ still lists that python-central bug, which has been floating near or at the top since release. Don't know if it's my parsing of the launchpad crash bugs data being broken or if we really still don't have a bug reported for it.
<bdmurray> Is that thought that there may be some deliquent package leaving the lock?
<ev> apols for jumping in there
<infinity> ev: doko uploaded a fix, we just need to get it through SRU land.
<ev> https://errors.ubuntu.com/oops/00104e3a-9071-11e1-b51d-2c768aafd08c
<ev> ah yay
<infinity> ev: And his fix *did* reference a bug, so maybe your matching isn't working?
<ev> well it will only match apport filed bugs
<infinity> I think it was.
<ev> okay, I'll have a look then
<ev> I'm sure I'm failing to parse a special character properly
<slangasek> I thought doko hand-filed the bug
<infinity> ev: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-central/+bug/955936
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 955936 in python-central (Ubuntu) "pycentral crashed with NameError in run(): global name 'arch' is not defined" [High,In progress]
<ev> cheers
<infinity> slangasek: Nope.
<slangasek> bdmurray: well, one of the scenarios that caused the lock was if there's a crash while using the guest session
<slangasek> bdmurray: so there's a bug there somewhere, but I wasn't able to spot it when I looked at the time
<infinity> slangasek: Yeah, one might wonder why the guest session is locking passwd?
<ev> infinity: added a note to investigate - thanks
<slangasek> infinity: yep
<bdmurray> ev: is it because the bug has a python traceback and the error doesn't?
<slangasek> infinity: where exactly is the fix for bug #955936?  it's not in the unapproved queue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 955936 in python-central (Ubuntu) "pycentral crashed with NameError in run(): global name 'arch' is not defined" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/955936
<cjwatson> it's in -proposed
<infinity> slangasek: Accepted.
<infinity> ^
<slangasek> oh
<slangasek> sorry, was confused by the 'in progress'
<slangasek> which is from the wrong task
<cjwatson> I guess we'll auto-copy it to quantal once it's verified
<slangasek> ok then
<ev> bdmurray: no, the signatures are not matched somehow. I think it's because I'm incorrectly parsing the signature on our end to what people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/apport... is expecting
<bdmurray> slangasek: that's all I had for bugs
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> one minute, talk fast ;)
<ev> Some crash database statistics for you:
<ev>   - 5,066,166 crashes received since March 20th. That's right, 5 million.
<ev>   - 263,280 crashes received on release day and 426,729 the next day.
<ev>   - Thanks to having to constantly purge the cache, we're retracing one 12.04
<ev>     crash every 47.44 seconds. Our best time was on release day with a full
<ev>     cache. We retraced one crash every 25.15 seconds.
<ev>   - 8,874 unique problems were seen today (with many instances of those
<ev>     seen). Yesterday we saw 12,468 unique problems. Keep in mind that this is
<ev>     greatly influenced by how quickly we can retrace crashes (and it currently
<ev>     incorrectly places the crashes in the day bucket for today, regardless of
<ev>     whether it actually happened days ago and we've only just retraced it). On
<ev>     release day we only saw 1,604 unique problems.
<ev>   - We've received reports from 364,359 people.
<slangasek> wow
<ogra_> geez, 5mio !
<infinity> Take-home message: (A) we actually have users, (B) software sucks?
<slangasek> what's the distribution of duplicates look like?  https://errors.ubuntu.com/ seems to only give a rolling frequency
<ev> the retracer hardware is causing serious pain. The numbers will shoot up much higher once we sort that.
<xnox> (C) we can now act in more real-time to real problems users are hitting *right now*
<ogra_> still if we say we have 20mio users thats like a quater of them having crashes :)
<slangasek> i.e., I'm pretty sure there've been more than 858 instances of the python-central issue, and that the number shown was higher yesterday :)
<ev> infinity: yes, and yes
<cjwatson> (D) maybe we need a more agile SRU process
<infinity> cjwatson: Indeed.
<ogra_> ++ on that
<infinity> cjwatson: Do we have a bikeshed session for that?
<slangasek> not currently
<ev> slangasek: yeah, the counts look a bit suspicious. I've been investigating but everything checks out so far.
<infinity> We probably should.
<slangasek> someone want to schedule one?
<ev> the code for month and year ranges will land soon
<slangasek> infinity: thanks for volunteering :)
<ev> in the web ui that is, it's already on the backend
<infinity> >:(
 * infinity goes to register.
<ev> xnox: yes, this is entirely realtime data and we'll soon have realtime updates on the page itself
<ev> so you can watch a crash climb
<slangasek> ev: well, I'm *sure* the numbers were higher when I loaded the page yesterday - I remember a four-digit count for the top crashers
<ev> it's per day at the moment
<ev> you'll be able to select month and year soon
<ev> and break down by releases, packages, and versions
<slangasek> ok
<ev> and matthew is working on a mockup UI to be able to select date ranges, I believe
<slangasek> would be good to understand things like: what percentage of all crashes does a given crash represent, are users likely to run into this same crash multiple times or just as a one-off, etc
<ev> as that was one of skaet 's requirements
<ev> slangasek: reply to my email :)
<slangasek> heh :)
<slangasek> noted ;)
<ev> IRC is far too lossy for this sort of thing
<ev> cheers!
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Wed May  2 16:05:44 2012 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-02-15.03.moin.txt
<meetingology`> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-02-15.03.html
<slangasek> thanks everyone :)
<slangasek> see you in Oakland!
<stgraber> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
 * xnox sunny california here we come!
<xnox> thanks!
<ev> thanks!
<highvoltage> yay, sun!
<ogra_> thanks!
<infinity> slangasek: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-more-agile-sru-process
<ogra_> highvoltage, they call it oracle nowadays
<highvoltage> ew, oracle!
<slangasek> infinity: schedulimated
<AlanBell> evening all
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC team
<meetingology`> Meeting started Wed May  2 18:58:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:
<AlanBell> hi all, who is here for the IRCC meeting?
<ikonia> present
<Myrtti> _o/
<oCean> yessir
<AlanBell> lets give it a few minutes for others to pop along
<AlanBell> hi funkyHat and topyli
<topyli> o/
<funkyHat> Hi Ã´/
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<AlanBell> ok, lets get started
<AlanBell> we don't have to clear out in a hurry at the end of the hour, but lets try and get through it by then anyhow
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  Review last meetings action items
<AlanBell> #progress people to provide feedback on the ubottu-fr trial on bug 892500
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<topyli> do we have any?
<AlanBell> only a little bit of feedback provided, anyone got anything else to add about ubottu-fr
<oCean> Have not really been able to actually test it
<oCean> Or more honestly, Ignored it, since it's confusing to have to work with multiple bots
<oCean> And I still think that the list with bugs filed for eir is valid for any bot handling our bans/mutes
<ikonia> I've fed back on ubuntu-fr, I think it's the way to go
<AlanBell> um, ok, but that doesn't help us to get to the goal of not having multiple bots
<ikonia> it needs trimming down though
<ikonia> but you can only do that once you've picked a direction to develop
<oCean> Can we assume, with little feedback there is, others have ignored it too?
<AlanBell> ok, I like the idea of using the ubottu-fr code too
<AlanBell> that seems likely
<topyli> yeah
<oCean> I think that is because we are not sure which way we're going
<ikonia> yes, pick a path and lets go !
<ikonia> get behind it like it or not
<ikonia> I'll even shut up about eir if that's the way you want to go
<ikonia> but lets get stuck in
<oCean> I definitely agree
<ikonia> at least there has been discussion this time
<ikonia> thought/testing behind it
<ikonia> get some opinions etc,
<AlanBell> it is something we can maintain as well
<ikonia> AlanBell: the work niko has done makes it pretty much "too good" out of the box, so we should be able to trim it back
<LjL> i think we can do trials, but either we all say "ok, we're trialling ubottu-fr, so let's ONLY use ubottu-fr for a month [or whatever] and nothing else", or otherwise we'll all continue using what we're used to
<ikonia> rather than develop it
<ikonia> LjL: yeah, the dual bot thing has confused me a bit
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on for now, we will come back to the eir bug in a second
<ikonia> lets wade in, one way or another
<AlanBell> that is a fair point about not using multiple bots, thats why we moved eir out of the way
<ikonia> has it gone ?
<AlanBell> so that it would still process expiries
<ikonia> I thought we where still supposed to be using it
<ikonia> it was still in #ubuntu picking up bans the other day
<AlanBell> it is in #ubuntu-ops-monitor
<topyli> we just moved the control channel
<ikonia> AlanBell: yeah, but it's still picking up bans in #ubuntu, so it's not going to be phased out
<ikonia> it's just not spamming #ubuntu-ops-team any more
<topyli> right
<AlanBell> well it will pick them up if it is there
<AlanBell> but it is mainly there so that it will remove bans
<ikonia> can we dump it out of ubuntu for a while ?
<oCean> Sure, most of us are still using eir
<ikonia> oCean: that's why LjL's point is valid
<oCean> yep
<AlanBell> if someone has a ban set to expire in 30 days or so and we remove eir altogether then that removal won't get processed
<ikonia> could the council have a little think please and knock up a draft plan ?
<jussi> it makes sense to use code that already fits with supybot if we are aiming for a single bot solution
<ikonia> AlanBell: could we not say "we'll work it out manually for a while"
<ikonia> just to phase it out, we can always phase it back in if it's decided eir is the way forward
<LjL> i don't think eir needs to be removed, just for it to be made clear that it's not the one to be used (if it's decided so)
<ikonia> one way or another we'll have to deal with those bans
<ikonia> LjL: but it picks up every ban
<ikonia> it will still have it in the database and the default nag of 2 days option (or whatever it is)
<oCean> AlanBell: I can still update the overview on somedom, so we can see which ban has expired
<oCean> then remove manually
<ikonia> is there a way to put it into read only mode
<ikonia> so it doesn't pickup anything new ?
<AlanBell> probably not
<oCean> Also, I think eir can still remind us of exired bans even when eir is not in #u
<AlanBell> not without affecting other channels
<ikonia> ahhh of course
<ikonia> didn't think of the other channels
<funkyHat> How many bans are likely to be in eir? Would it be feasible to move them manually to ubotu-fr after disabling eir in #u?
<oCean> funkyHat: currently 107
<funkyHat> Or script it if we can get a detailed enough output from eir
<ikonia> funkyHat: oCean 's script run weekly until they are phased out would probable work simpler
<ikonia> just review on a sunday or something for a month or two
<funkyHat> Ok
<ikonia> hell, I'll take an action to do it if needed
<AlanBell> sounds good
<oCean> exactly
<topyli> i'd be fine with that
<ikonia> it's not exactly a long term issue, and probably just a simple way of phasing it out
<funkyHat> Yep, sounds good
<AlanBell> what is the overlap between ubottu and ubottu-fr? Can we put bits of ubottu-fr into ubottu easily?
<ikonia> as I recall niko basically did a modular hot swap
<ikonia> so you can swap in / out what you want
<ikonia> ubottu-fr was just a snapshot of ubottu's later code from what I recall
<ubottu> ikonia: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<LjL> do we want to phase it out before we know whether ubottu-fr is "good enough", though? do most of us currently know anything about ubuntu-fr? i'm still leaning towards something like yelling at every op "use ubottu-fr instead of eir for a month!", but without killing eir immediately
<tsimpson> that depends on how ubottu-fr works, ubottu is a regular supybot with plugins. so as long as all the code is external to supybot, it should be fine
<LjL> ikonia: no, i don't think it is just that. it has been modified (the supybot core, that is) to my knowledge
<LjL> the good news, i seem to recall, is that the modifications are being pushed upstream (to supybot)... don't quote me on that, it's what i seem to recall hearing
<ikonia> LjL: I don't know, so I'm not stating anything factually
<AlanBell> ok, we need to have a chat with niko about this
<tsimpson> heh, good luck getting anything upstream in supybot
<niko> there is some core changes in ubotu-fr, that means, you can't use channel plugin of ubotu-fr without the full bot, but that means too that you can load any kind of ubottu plugin into ubotu-fr
<AlanBell> oh that sounds fine then
<LjL> niko: yeah, it's inconvenient, though, to rely on a non-standard supybot. should we need to put a bot up quickly, we can't just apt-get supybot or whatever
<oCean> But LjL has a point, with so little review/trials done on ubotu-fr, how much do we trust it, to replace eir, and actually remove eir from #u
<AlanBell> so we can load all the ubottu plugins into an ubotu-fr clone and bring it up as ubottu
<niko> wget the tar files, sudo python setup.py install, and that's all
<funkyHat> So what are the issues with getting ubotu-fr code into supybot?
<ikonia> tsimpson: I'm guessing you've had a tough time getting anything upstream ?
<niko> ubotu-fr code is dedicaced for ircd-seven, that's the big point
<tsimpson> ikonia: upstream seem dead
<ikonia> ahh
<ikonia> so very hard then
<oCean> aren't we getting a little ahead with discussing merges etc?
<ikonia> niko: would it be possible to make that part a "module" rather than part of the code base
<ikonia> oCean: sorry, yes
<ikonia> I got excited
<topyli> why not fork it properly then, if upstream is not maintaining the original?
<niko> ikonia: not really, too much stuff need to be done in core files, due to how supybot was written
<tsimpson> topyli: because the code is both insane, and ugly
<topyli> ok :)
<oCean> if we trust current ubotu-fr enough, I say remove eir, bring ubotu-fr in, and run,test,file bugs, etc
<ikonia> I have the impression tsimpson may not have had a good time
<AlanBell> yeah, I think we need to jump in with both feet here
<AlanBell> we also need to get through this meeting :)
<oCean> Is there a manual/usage wikipage of some sorts on ubotu-fr usage?
<niko> http://nicolas.coevoet.fr
<AlanBell> I will mail the list with a plan to set up an ubottu-fr clone with the ubottu plugins loaded and get it to replace ubottu
<oCean> niko: I see very few lines under usage :)
<AlanBell> we can discuss on the mailing list and at UDS for those going or attending remotely
<oCean> OK
<AlanBell> lets crack on with the agenda now
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> there are none \o/
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<topyli> yay!
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
<AlanBell> ok, I put the text we had on the wiki
<topyli> yeah, thanks for that
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines has been updated
<topyli> it is improved
<AlanBell> I think it is better than it was, if there are further improvements to be made then great, we can make them on the wiki
<topyli> yes
<funkyHat> So is this done? â¢)
<AlanBell> I will close that bug now
<AlanBell> fix released
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671
<AlanBell> so for this one we have a new procedure of processing applications from existing core ops as fast as we can conveniently do it
<topyli> this is streamlined a bit with the fast approval of "old" ops
<topyli> yes
<AlanBell> I think we have one to do from a couple of days ago, but generally we are responsive on this now
<AlanBell> I also want to do a big call for ops for lots of channels and process all the queues to do an intake of operators for the Quantal cycle
<AlanBell> and generally have an intake at the start of each development cycle
<AlanBell> I think that makes operator recruitment regular and quite gainly
<AlanBell> so I think that bug is fixed :)
<topyli> we could compile a list of channels and simply send out a call for ops. it's been a while
<AlanBell> yup, and it is the start of the cycle
<topyli> yes
<LjL> Just for the record: I still think you should have a "procedure" (or lack of one, whatever makes it happen) for appointing ops outside of a semestral recruitment process or whatever. And I'm not sure I see how a new release makes new ops automatically needed, on the other hand. But this has been discussed a lot before, so I'm just saying this for the logs, basically.
<topyli> we can close the bug
<AlanBell> fix released
<AlanBell> noted LJL
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<AlanBell> so on this one we look like going in the ubotu-fr direction, I will mail the list and get some actions together for this.
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group
<ikonia> yeah, the ubottu-fr plan covers this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
<AlanBell> Pici: did you get anywhere with this one?
<AlanBell> um, pici hasn't said anything, maybe he is indisposed
<AlanBell> lets move on
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916247
<AlanBell> well this was full of spam, that got cleared up and locked down, migrating the data to wiki.ubuntu.com might be a good idea, but the formatting will need a lot of manual fixing and nobody is leaping forward to take on that rather dull task
<ikonia> I can help with it, I can't "do" it
<ikonia> the ubuntu wiki is a tough mistress
<AlanBell> the bug was the spam, which has been addressed, I don't think the devel wiki in itself is a major overhead to have just sitting there
<AlanBell> I am inclined at this point to just leave it and close the bug
<topyli> moving the content is a different issue really
<AlanBell> ok, commented and [C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C fix released then
<AlanBell> oops
<topyli> ok
<AlanBell> right, moving on
<AlanBell> #topic end of the induction/probation period for the current intake of operators
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  end of the induction/probation period for the current intake of operators
<topyli> oh it's time is it?
<AlanBell> so we have a bunch of operators from the #lubuntu area who are at the end of their 3 month intro period
<AlanBell> there have been a couple of resignations from people who for various reasons decided not to continue and I think one of them never showed up at all
<AlanBell> we should email them individually I think
<Myrtti> remind us of the nicknames again?
<Myrtti> or shhould I go check myself :-P
<AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~irc-lubuntu-ops/+members#active
<topyli> i haven't noticed any serious worries with the lubuntu ops. those who are not active are another story
 * AlanBell tidies up a couple
 * Myrtti nods
<AlanBell> anyone know m0hi?
<topyli> not me
<Unit193> AlanBell: IAmNotThatGuy
<AlanBell> oh, I have seen that nick
<Sidewinder> IAm... is currently in #ubuntuforums
<Sidewinder> Shall I ask him to join here?
<AlanBell> Sidewinder: that would be great
<ikonia> is he active in #lubuntu ?
<Sidewinder> K
<Myrtti> he's on the channel
<Myrtti> there hasn't been that much need for ops there...
<Myrtti> then again I can't remember if he was on the lesson at -classroom either, and I don't know if he needs it
<topyli> oh maybe i should apply there myself, i like that kind of channels
<AlanBell> yeah, I don't have any concerns really, as an Ubuntu Member
<Sidewinder> AlanBell, I politely paged IAmNot ThatGuy
<AlanBell> ok, thats fine, will chat later, I don't have any concerns really
<Myrtti> idle 29minutes
<Unit193> (There is no meeting directly after this)
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on
<AlanBell> #topic Calling for new operators
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  Calling for new operators
<AlanBell> ok, new cycle new intake of operators
<topyli> yes let's just do it
<funkyHat> Yep
<AlanBell> I will update my list of everyone in the queue and do a call for ops
<AlanBell> then we can process the queues and get a new group in
<topyli> ok
<AlanBell> #action AlanBell to sort out a call for ops
<meetingology`> ACTION: AlanBell to sort out a call for ops
<Myrtti> which channels are we looking for?
<Myrtti> and do you want me to redo my classroom?
<AlanBell> pretty much all the core channels and yes please Myrtti
<AlanBell> and I want to get a few more classroom sessions scheduled too
<topyli> you did have a good subject which you might do every now and then if you have the energy
<Myrtti> may I suggest a specific call for certain timezones?
<AlanBell> good point, what times are in need of coverage?
<Myrtti> I think nighttime Europe is always in need
<Myrtti> few extra eyes wouldn't be bad
<topyli> so, pacific america?
<AlanBell> ok, kind of 00:00 to 08:00 UTC
<Myrtti> topyli: or au/nz/jp
<AlanBell> doesn't really matter where people actually are, just what time they are on IRC
<Myrtti> depends on the viewpoint
<Myrtti> exactly
<topyli> yeah :)
<AlanBell> ok, I will put something about that in the call for ops
<AlanBell> ok, moving on
<AlanBell> #topic alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
<AlanBell> right now the access lists and launchpad teams are in approximate agreement at best
<AlanBell> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ankl5FhsdSiZdGZVV2ZuLVRwa2c5M3pqX3BEaUhXMFE
<AlanBell> is all the access lists
<topyli> someone was helping with this, no?
<AlanBell> anyone who pms me an email address can have edit access to thi
<AlanBell> knome was helping to identify some issues
<AlanBell> I was thinking of doing a bit of automation to get the launchpad groups and the access lists in the spreadsheet side by side
<AlanBell> then we can make them all match up
<ikonia> hasn't Pici done work on this before
<ikonia> maybe worth checking
<EvilResistance> AlanBell:  i see one flaw there, though: not every nickname that patches on Launchpad is up-to-date here on Freenode
<EvilResistance> s/patches/is/
<AlanBell> EvilResistance: that is a good point, but everyone in the core ops team does have a nick on their launchpad page (I checked)
<AlanBell> if any don't tie up I will be asking them to change the launchpad nick to their account name
<EvilResistance> indeed, just wanted to point that out, you'd need to make sure the nicks are kept up to date ;)
<AlanBell> it is done on account names rather than nicks
<topyli> isn't it a requirement in the first place, so you can be an op? :)
<AlanBell> account  : Resistance
<Resistance> :P
<AlanBell> ok, don't need to go through the spreadsheet line by line right now
<AlanBell> oh, one thing
<AlanBell> VotiA or VotriA or something else as the default? should it be the same over all channels?
<AlanBell> and should people have founder flags?
<AlanBell> some channels have a wide assortment of flags for operators, it looks a bit messy but I guess it works fine
<Resistance> AlanBell:  from an ITSec point of view, i think that only members of IRCC should have the founder flag, anyone else who has founder flag has sort of a god power over a channel.
<topyli> i think we've just done VotiA, but i'm far from clueful in this
<AlanBell> ok, we will have a bit of a think about this and work out some conventions I think
<topyli> yeah i agree, ops don't need founder flags
<AlanBell> bit of a pici question
<AlanBell> #topic UDS blueprint
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  UDS blueprint
<AlanBell> so UDS is coming up next week
<AlanBell> I am going in person, anyone else going to be there?
<Myrtti> Resistance +1
<topyli> just remote lurking. i'll probably be semi-actively following the community track
<Myrtti> wasn't sponsored, so not going
<AlanBell> would you like to have an IRCC session set up so we can have a chat over the audio streaming thingie?
<topyli> why not, if we have something to chat about :)
<AlanBell> ok, I will set one up then, I will try to get a morning slot for it
<AlanBell> #action AlanBell to schedule UDS session
<meetingology`> ACTION: AlanBell to schedule UDS session
<AlanBell> #topic setting up an election of another council member
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  setting up an election of another council member
<AlanBell> there are 4 people on the IRCC, there should be 5 according to our charter
<topyli> yeah
<AlanBell> we deferred fixing that into the Q cycle but I think we are now in a much better position to go ahead with it
<funkyHat> And we are now in the Q cycle â¢D
<topyli> we need to feel around for candidates
<Myrtti> I'm happy I'm practically unelectable \o/
<AlanBell> \o/
<Myrtti> I can continue to heckle from the peanut gallery
<AlanBell> mmm peanuts
<Unit193> Yep, we can toss the peanuts at them. :D
<funkyHat> I know of one potential candidate, and I remember someone else being mentioned too
<AlanBell> ok, not much more to say on this one, just wanted to announce it and get started on it
<AlanBell> we will talk to the CC about the process
<AlanBell> final item now
<AlanBell> #topic set up #ubuntu-discuss for on-topic non-support discussion and ramblings
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  set up #ubuntu-discuss for on-topic non-support discussion and ramblings
<AlanBell> we have had Canonical sending people into #ubuntu to join the discussion about ubuntu
<AlanBell> people who don't have an active support problem
<Myrtti> #ubuntu-project
<AlanBell> this isn't ideal so we talked to canonical about this issue and got it fixed
<AlanBell> but it would be nice to have an area for on-topic talk about ubuntu that isn't support
<AlanBell> and isn't what -offtopic is
<ikonia> that was always my dream for -offtopic
<LjL> you can kill #ubuntu-offtopic, or you can talk about interesting things there and make it better, your call i guess
<ikonia> option 2 is always my preference
<topyli> i'd use -ot
<topyli> or *continue* to use -ot, rather
<ikonia> I would if you could have a discussion in there
<funkyHat> It is quite possible to have a discussion in -ot
<AlanBell> well right now it is being used for a perfectly nice conversation about films
<Sidewinder> Unless you want to create an #ubuntu-offtopic-offtopic, which I wouldn't recommend.
<AlanBell> Sidewinder: more of an #ubuntu-ontopic
<Sidewinder> Not a bad idea; just non-support..
<AlanBell> I don't want to remove #ubuntu-offtopic
<LjL> so you want a channel for support, a channel for Ubuntu discussions that are not support, and a channel strictly for discussions that are not about Ubuntu
<LjL> seems overkill to me
<LjL> and a good way to kill either or both the "secondary" channels
<Sidewinder> There is that.
<topyli> i think -ot is just fine for any ubuntu-related discussion. you're not required to talk about flashlights there. it's just for whatever is not support
<AlanBell> it is possible that it won't be a viable channel long term, I don't know without trying it
<Sidewinder> I don't feel that ot is overly busy.
<guntbert> maybe make it more obvious in -ot that is is intended for discussion about ubuntu - not just a general "anything goes"
<funkyHat> I don't see much issue with encouraging more ubuntu-related discussion in -ot. At the moment it's not a terribly busy channel
<LjL> guntbert: well but it's not. it's for both things
<funkyHat> guntbert: well it is a general channel too
<guntbert> LjL: ok, (I said 'not just' :-)
<Sidewinder> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. IMHO
<topyli> it's not broken. sure, we could always tend to it better, but that's not the channel's fault as such
<AlanBell> "Join the discussions in #ubuntu on Freenode" is what the canonical stuff said
<guntbert> I see one problem: quality discussion just don't happen there - do they?
<AlanBell> "Join the discussions in #ubuntu-offtopic on Freenode" would be a strange thing for them to say to customers
<topyli> quality discussion does happen in -ot. just not all the time
<LjL> so the issue is the channel name?
<topyli> AlanBell: that's true
<Sidewinder> guntbert, I think they do; it's not just limited to that.
<Sidewinder> LjL, I think the name's fine, but that's just me.
<AlanBell> LjL: partly, yes, and partly because someone arriving in a totally off-topic discussion might be confusing
<topyli> canonical could say "join #ubuntu for support and #ubuntu-offtopic for general discussion"
<funkyHat> I think arriving to see an off topic discussion is better than joining a dead channel
<LjL> AlanBell: make #ubuntu-chat or #ubuntu-discuss or whatever and redirect it to #ubuntu-offtopic if the issue is the channel name in "marketing", i don't think that's an issue. if the problem is the content, well i don't think it's an issue either, but i guess it might be
<guntbert> how about doing it the freenode way?   #help = #freenode              so #ubuntu-offtopic = #ubuntu-discuss
<Sidewinder> topyli, I think that's THE answer.
<Resistance> i think topyli has the right idea there
<funkyHat> Maybe if -ot gets too crowded we could rethink having a -discuss or -project channel
<funkyHat> (assuming some of the crowd is actually project related ;)
<guntbert> I too like topyli's proposal
<funkyHat> Yep
<AlanBell> how much of the crowd at the moment is made up of people who are developers on the project in some way?
<ikonia> pretty much zero
<Resistance> what ikonia said, at the most maybe 1%
<topyli> in -ot? not too many
<ikonia> offtopic has nothing to do with ubuntu in any way
<ikonia> even community
<ikonia> people don't user/support/discuss ubuntu, it's just another defocus
<Myrtti> most of the time it feels like -uk is better for that discussion ;-)
<ikonia> Myrtti: it is
<AlanBell> yup
<topyli> i'm always talking about ubuntu or linux in -ot
<Myrtti> s/that//
<topyli> except when i'm talking about something else :)
<Sidewinder> Heh,.
<ikonia> topyli: yes, your a rarer beast, as is ljl and a few others
<ikonia> but a lot of the users have no "ubuntu" reason to be there
<AlanBell> and lots of people who do some contribution to ubuntu in some context don't really want to be there
<topyli> there are a lot of people there who don't even use ubuntu anymore, but used to at some point and just like the people
<ikonia> topyli: I don't think you have to use it, but have an interest in it, follow it, be aware of it so you can actually participate
<ikonia> be "involved" in someway
<AlanBell> both are fine, I don't want to go shutting down -offtopic as a kind of defocusy chatter place
<topyli> ikonia: it would be more "ubuntu" that way for sure
<AlanBell> a lot of loco teams don't have active channels so -offtopic kind of takes that role a bit
<Sidewinder> Currently it's just less strict.
<ikonia> topyli: at the moment there is no "ubuntu" community to that channel, beyond the fact that it has the ubuntu coc
<ikonia> it's not made up of members/users/interested parties etc, its just people
<ikonia> you could chnge the channel name to offtopic and it would not have any difference to the users/content
<dax> If memory serves, the top three people in that channel don't use Ubuntu; topyli breaks the trend by being in 4th place :P
<ikonia> I don't think using it is a requirement
<Myrtti> topyli: have you moved back to Ubuntu now?
<Myrtti> :-P
<topyli> i'm back on ubuntu yes :)
<ikonia> but being part of the community, following it's disucssion/development etc
<ikonia> being able to join in with it in some way
<dax> I will refrain from discussing my opinions on whether AtomicSpark is part of the Ubuntu community, but I don't think I (#2) am :P
<AlanBell> ok, so how do we draw this item to a conclusion?
<topyli> yeah you're an example of someone who *was* a part of the community for a long time and now just hang in there with old friends :)
<topyli> AlanBell: well, frankly i'd do nothing but tell canonical to clarify their message
<Sidewinder> Homeostasis?
<Sidewinder> topyli, +1
<Resistance> I'm not on the Council, but I think that, at the least, telling Canonical to clarify their message is the first step, but that more in-depth research and discussion on this topic needs to be done to determine whether an Ubuntu discussion channel needs to exist separate from -offtopic
<Sidewinder> If we were voting, that is..
<topyli> maybe it will improve -ot if canonical starts sending people there, who are actually interested in discussing ubuntu
<funkyHat> I agree. And if we want to have more ubuntu related discussion in -ot we need to just have more ubuntu related discussion
<funkyHat> Yes
<AlanBell> well I did that, and Mark said
<AlanBell>  * if there is a better IRC channel for general "hello, I'm interested in X with Ubuntu, where should I go?", then let me know and I'll update the team to use that for the cases where they do judge the audience to be developer or at least highly technical in nature.
<AlanBell> the other option is that canonical don't send people to IRC
<AlanBell> and send them to askubuntu.com or something instead
<Resistance> AlanBell:  that'd be cutting out one of the big support communities, there.
<topyli> well the latter one does not sound very good
<Resistance> i think IRC is better for real-time support, askubuntu.com and ubuntuforums.org take some time to actually get decent responses, and to be honest, there's more people on IRC who really know what they're talking about
<Resistance> (at least, in comparison to askubuntu.com)
<AlanBell> it isn't about support
<topyli> also, it's not *so* terrible to come to the main channel, it's natural. it's just that people will use their energy to guide these people to the correct channels like -ot or -server or whatever
<topyli> i don't know how big this problem is for #ubuntu
<AlanBell> this was about their communications around ubuntu for android
<topyli> is there *any* channel where people talk about ubuntu for android?
<topyli> does it even have anything to do with the community?
<LjL> ^
<LjL> maybe the problem is that Canonical and its developers should interact with the community, not "send" people to IRC when there's no way anyone can have a clue about the product
<dax> Does it have publicly accessible source-code anywhere?
<dax> (because if not, it's not an Ubuntu community project, it's a Canonical project using Ubuntu branding)
<AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/963188/
<AlanBell> silly pastbin with no wrapping
<topyli> ubuntu one has nicely settled on its own channel, it's not bothering us too much i think
<topyli> at least that's how it used to be
<AlanBell> so yes, there should be more canonical developers involved, but no they are not going to all join #ubuntu-offtopic and stay there
<topyli> probably not. they have jobs :)
<Myrtti> this might be something that could be discussed in UDS...
<AlanBell> that is a good point
<AlanBell> get some more canonical opinions on the matter too
<topyli> yes. the devs will be there
<Myrtti> indeed
<AlanBell> ok I will put it on the agenda of the UDS meeting
<Sidewinder> AlanBell, What's wrong with them joining #u? I for one have noticed some questions asked there that were not answered and I could not.
<Myrtti> Sidewinder: there is nothing to support
<AlanBell> Sidewinder: because they don't have a support question and the general feeling at the time was nobody wanted people turning up in #u wanting to "join the conversation"
<LjL> Sidewinder: that Ubuntu's policy has always (to my knowledge) been that it's a technical support channel only, not for opinions, information about products, discussion, etc - if we opened *that* door, a lot of stuff would come in
<Myrtti> Sidewinder: so it doesn't fit on a support channel at the moment
<AlanBell> anyhow, lets discuss that more next week
<Sidewinder> OIC.
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<AlanBell> anything else to discuss now?
<Myrtti> AlanBell: #ubuntu+1
<Myrtti> (see -ops)
<AlanBell> ah right, shall we open it again?
<topyli> if Q is open, why not?
<AlanBell> can't see any particular reason no to, the toolchain is open
<Sidewinder> LjL, I agree.
<AlanBell> lets do it
<topyli> yeah
<AlanBell> ok, anything else
<oCean> AlanBell: One more thing, since you skipped quite quickly through the "eir not fit for purpose"
<oCean> Recently I removed a lot of bans/mutes. Most of those had no comments at all, so I had to go through logs etc to see if they could be removed
<oCean> Because I don't really want to go through all that again, and we don't want to do that if we're weekly reviewing which bans can be removed, I suggested changing eir's config (or for any new bot) to autoremove-after-expire.
<AlanBell> ok, I think if people are not commenting on bans they are fair game for removal
<oCean> So if you want a ban/mute to stay, just make sure you btset it with an expire date and/or comment, or after 2 days it is gone and so preventing all these undocumented bans
<oCean> we can agree, but others should be aware of it
<oCean> since even after a couple of days, we have lots of expired and uncommented bans again
<topyli> sounds good to me. an email to the list should handle the communication
<oCean> yup
<topyli> oCean: are you volunteering to compose this email? :)
<oCean> sure, but it would not go out before the weekend
<topyli> because you would know what you're talking about, unlike me
<oCean> don t think we're in a hurry though
<topyli> ok
<AlanBell> fine
<AlanBell> anything else to discuss?
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Wed May  2 20:48:42 2012 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-02-18.58.moin.txt
<meetingology`> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-02-18.58.html
<AlanBell> thanks everyone
<oCean> \o/
<topyli> nice, lots done
<Sidewinder> Thank you, all.
<AlanBell> lots of bugs closed :)
<funkyHat> woo
<funkyHat> Thank you everyone
<Myrtti> please poke iceroot on -ops when +1 is open
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-05-03
<Jackseen> Hi all iam new bee to this board
 * cielak is away: Busy/Away
<beuno> o/
<Gwaihir> o/
<paultag> o/
<czajkowski> aloha
<dholbach> o/
<dholbach> (but I will have to leave early)
<Gwaihir> dholbach, no problem
<cprofitt> -0/
<Gwaihir> I should be chairing today if nobody wants to replace me :-P
<soaringsky> o/
 * ScottK is here for the Kubuntu Council catchup.
<pleia2> o/
 * ScottK has to go a bit early too, so it'd be nice if it could be moved up on the agenda.
<czajkowski> Gwaihir: no you're ok :) you do a great job
 * soaringsky is here for the support definition thing
<Gwaihir> thanks czajkowski :-)
<Gwaihir> so, lets get rolling
<Gwaihir> #startmeeting
<meetingology`> Meeting started Thu May  3 17:02:42 2012 UTC.  The chair is Gwaihir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Gwaihir> #topic Community Council Meeting - Agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Council Meeting - Agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<YokoZar> Catchups are usually first
<Gwaihir> hello everyone!
<txwikinger> o/
<Gwaihir> welcome to this Community Council meeting!
<Gwaihir> agenda for this meeting can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Gwaihir> so, first thing on the list is catch-up with the Tech Board
<YokoZar> did we end up with two catchups in one day then?
<Gwaihir> do we have somebody here? or we can move up the Kubuntu catch-up since ScottK has to leave early
<dholbach> Gwaihir, if we don't have anyone from the TB available yet, we could move up the Kubuntu Coucil as Scott.... yes
<dholbach> :)
<ScottK> Hello.
<ScottK> Any questions for me to start?
 * dholbach is clearly typing too slowly after 2 UOW sessions
<pleia2> ScottK: we're actually not sure why the Kubuntu Council was added to the schedule
<Gwaihir> #subtopic Kubuntu Council catch-up
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> I'm glad it was.
<czajkowski> ScottK: well Kubuntu has been already so wondered was there sometjhing up ?
<sabdfl> hello all
<ScottK> We're still working through the issues associated with the changed level of Canonical sponsorship/commerical support.
<ScottK> It all seems to be going reasonably well after discussions within the community about what the changes mean/don't mean.
<ScottK> It does seem that we're likely to rename ourselves in order to avoid any potential for trademark issues and potential additional sponsors.
<ScottK> Riddell (who's not available right now) asked me to let you know about that.
<pleia2> has Kubuntu approached Canonical about the trademark issues?
<ScottK> Yes.
<dholbach> ScottK, do you already have updates about discussion bits which are definite and clear?
<ScottK> We don't intend to change anything about being a community focused KDE flavor in Ubuntu.
<sabdfl> Trademark issues haven't been escalated to me
<sabdfl> my guidance has been to be flexible, to ask for a contribution to core costs, but otherwise not to make trademark a blocker
<sabdfl> but i'm not sure where any request would have been sent, and if the person who received it is aware of that guidance
<sabdfl> ScottK, if you can tell me where the issue was raised, i can close that loop
<ScottK> Riddell or I can email you the details if you'd like.
<sabdfl> thanks
<ScottK> He was the one doing the contacting, so best from him I think.
<ScottK> We do want to be very clear that if we do change the name, it's just a label plate change.  It doesn't change anything about what we think Kubuntu is/will be.
<beuno> ScottK, and I'm guessing there's a strong preference to keep the current name?
<ScottK> There are mixed feelings.
<beuno> ScottK, care to expand a bit?
<ScottK> There are some negative associations with the current name outside Ubuntu.
<ScottK> Personally, I'd prefer to keep it.
<beuno> ScottK, negative because of the *buntu part?
<ScottK> The largest issue is a perception of being controlled by Canonical and not community run.
<beuno> or historic reasons of the project?
<ScottK> Some historic reasons, but mostly perceptions about control.
<pleia2> all the flavors suffer from this
<sabdfl> "suffer" in the sense of being the most popular way to get that experience?
<sabdfl> is there a more popular way to get KDE? or XFCE? or LXDE?
<beuno> ScottK, do you think there's a way minimise the concerns there?
<pleia2> well, Xubuntu got a lot of questions about "Canonical dropping support for us too" when the kubuntu news came out
<pleia2> it was quite confusing to a lot of folks
<ScottK> beuno: I think over time things have improved.
<beuno> it sounds like if nothing's going to change in the project itself, departing from the name sends mixed messages
<sabdfl> i would have concerns about use of ubuntu infrastructure by a project that was NOT associated
<ScottK> Certainly.
<ScottK> We intend to be just as associated as we are now.
<cprofitt> +1 beuno I think changing the name would only strengthen the 'thought' that Canonical controls Ubuntu, Xubuntu, etc.
<beuno> ScottK, if the trademark issue is sorted out and everything else is transparent, maybe that would be enough?
<ScottK> Probably.
<beuno> I mean, some people will never be happy
<ScottK> Sure.
<ScottK> If trademark weren't an issue, there wouldn't be a discussion about renaming.
<beuno> ScottK, ok, so besides sabdfl taking this on, what else can we do to help?
<ScottK> I don't think anything.
<ScottK> We wanted to make you aware of it though.
<Darkwing> I'd like to point out that Russell and I have a meeting on Monday afternoon with canonical about this.
<Darkwing> riddell
<ScottK> Oh, you are here.
 * ScottK thought he was the only one around.
<dholbach> Apart from lacking some definite answers right now, are there any other pressing concerns in the Kubuntu world you can think of?
<ScottK> No.
<ScottK> It's a bit of a brave new world for us, but we'll manage it.
<beuno> ScottK, it's awesome that more companies stepped up to sponsor
<ScottK> Agreed.
<Darkwing> I just arrived... I'm mobile so I don't have my PC with me.
<beuno> I was thrilled to see more commercial support out there ready to step in
<pleia2> beuno: +1
<ScottK> Darkwing: We're going to email the status of the trademark situation to sabdfl after the meeting is where we stand (where we is Riddell or you).
<czajkowski> ScottK: Darkwing thank you for keeping everyone up to date on the matter though
<Darkwing> it'll have to be Russell... I'm on my phone.
<Gwaihir> any other questions for the Kubuntu council?
<Darkwing> dang it
<Darkwing> Riddell
<beuno> Darkwing, auto correct is really stubborn, huh?
<ScottK> Heh.
<Darkwing> yeah.
<dholbach> ScottK, Darkwing, Thanks a lot for bringing this up and thanks for trying to communicate all of this clearly to the Ubuntu community
<Gwaihir> ScottK, Darkwing, thanks for bringing this forward to this meeting
<Gwaihir> if there are no other questions we can move to the next topic
<Darkwing> aye.
<Gwaihir> #subtopic Tech Board catch-up
<Gwaihir> any tech board members here today?
<Gwaihir> after my email today, did somebody had the chance to ping them on IRC?
<dholbach> cjwatson, kees, pitti, mdz, soren, stgraber: ping
<YokoZar> Sorry, 20 minute-long netsplit there :/
<Gwaihir> dholbach, do we know if the are already in Oakland?
<dholbach> no idea I'm afraid
<Gwaihir> ok, I think we can move to the next topic and maybe resume it later
<Gwaihir> soaringsky, are you around?
<dholbach> at UDS we are going to set up a new meet up schedule for Q - we might as well make sure we move the TB to the top of it
<stgraber> hello
<soaringsky> Gwaihir: yep
<cjwatson> sorry, what?  I didn't see any mail from you
<stgraber> I don't remember receiving a reminder for this meeting
<Gwaihir> cjwatson, might be in the queue then... sent it to the tech board mailing list
<cjwatson> at least three of us will be in Oakland, possibly more
<stgraber> I know I saw something about it a while ago on the wiki
<YokoZar> ok then
<sabdfl> i saw it in email but that might have been the CC copy
<sabdfl> let's bump TB to next CC meeting if they're amenable, it was very short notice
<cjwatson> Gwaihir: I've moderated your message; we'll see it in a bit, I guess
<sabdfl> or in-person if we can get it at UDS
<sabdfl> *very* short notice :)
<Gwaihir> cjwatson, thanks, shame on me, could have sent individual emails
<Gwaihir> sabdfl, ok to move if forward
<Gwaihir> apologies guys
<Gwaihir> we have the CCv2 review, and the "Defining support"
<cjwatson> my list moderation has been slowed by listadmin hating me, but there you go
<Gwaihir> in order lets take the "CCv2 review" for now
<Gwaihir> #subtopic Code Of Conduct v2 feedback review
<Gwaihir> czajkowski, has done a great work merging the feedback we received here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/czajkowski/CoCFeedback
<cprofitt> I sent out a suggested change to the Decisiveness has value in itself section... it is on the CC mailing list
<paultag> Well, firstly (on this topic) I'd like to say sorry to anyone who found my comments out of line - I agree they were out of line. I'll be here (and civil) to talk about this topic :)
<cprofitt> thanks paultag
<pleia2> thanks paultag
<dholbach> do we want to go through the commentary one by one?
<cprofitt> sure
<Gwaihir> that can take time...
<czajkowski> aye
<dholbach> any other thoughts?
<czajkowski> firstly thanks to all those who sent in feedback
<YokoZar> I think it's pretty clear the "Deciciveness has value in itself" paragraph is very problematic and needs a rewrite
<dholbach> I sent my thoughts to the CC mailing list already, as I might have to leave in a bit
<pleia2> do we want to just collect more community feedback here at the meeting and then pick this up at UDS?
<paultag> YokoZar: I agree.
<maco> (is this about the CoC rewrite?)
<YokoZar> pleia2: that I agree with
<paultag> maco: yep
<pleia2> maco: yep
<Gwaihir> pleia2, +1
<greg-g> YokoZar: I agree with that as well (re: it needs a rewrite in the Deciciveness section)
<Laney> can we discuss what you're trying to do with the CoC?
<beuno> that's a good idea, Laney
<cprofitt> here is the re-write for Decisiveness -- Wiki style so others can see it
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/CoC
<beuno> Laney, part of it is to merge in the leadership CoC with the CoC
<cprofitt> Laney: the initial motivation was to merge leadership CoC with the CoC due to the inability to sign the leadership CoC... limitations of Launchpad
<cprofitt> with the two merged there was also a desire to clean up the language and update it to reflect the current state of the project
<dholbach> and it being a bit hard to find the LCoC if you don't know of its existence
<greg-g> cprofitt: that last sentence is slightly problematic. If I disagree with a decision I don't want to be forced to bring it up with the governance structure.
<dholbach> on top of that some other edits had happened since the last update (addition of a diversity statement and other bits)
<paultag> greg-g: I would agree
<pleia2> it's also to address some of the abuse that decision makers in Ubuntu have had to deal with over some decisions they have been put into a position to make
<sabdfl> greg-g, what would you see as reasonable alternatives when you disagree with a decision?
<pleia2> (the decisiveness section)
<cprofitt> greg-g: how should someone raise a question about a decision then?
<greg-g> sabdfl: that I can voice my disagreement anywhere I choose as long as I abide by the other sections of the CoC
<paultag> cprofitt: people should feel free to resolve issues among themselves, and bring the solution up
<sabdfl>  * be part of teams that are clearly going to take decisions you are likely to be particularly interested in
<greg-g> cprofitt: they are of course FREE TO CHOOSE to go to a governance body, but I don't want that to be forced on anyone
<sabdfl>   - i.e. if you care about kubuntu governance, step up to the council etc
<cprofitt> greg-g: hmm...
<sabdfl>  * pay attention to community lists and conversations and blogs
<Laney> well, not everyone is in the position to get onto every team
<greg-g> that sentence is an if..then
<maco> A friend of mine who was interested in getting involved but after an interaction in an Ubuntu channel the other day expressed concern to me that the "be respectful" paragraph's wording allows for someone to claim offense at being accused of sexism and thereby having their sexism supported by the CoC while the person who was offended by the sexism is told to be nicer about their offendedness.
<Laney> council*
<maco> (she's not so much interested in ubuntu anymore)
<dholbach> Laney, maybe rather "participate" than "join"
<maco> i'm pretty sure pleia2 knows who i mean
<sabdfl>     - don't show up after a long conversation that lead to a decision and expect to restart the conversation
<pleia2> maco :(
<sabdfl>  * accept that no one person can weigh in on every issue, and no issue should require everyone to weigh in on it to get a good decision
<sabdfl>  * accept that a big, fast moving community will have to make a lot of decisions, and nobody will agree with all of them
<YokoZar> sabdfl: surely we can revisit decisions we made years ago given new information, though
<cprofitt> greg-g: I see value in discussion as long as it is done in the spirit of moving the project forward... I question the value if it is just there to complain or to distract
<sabdfl>  * help structure the community to make sure the right people are in place to take relevant decisions
<sabdfl>    -> encourage good people to lead, to participate
<YokoZar> sabdfl: especially since lots of decisions we make are for reasons that may no longer apply (like no-longer-existent technical limitations)
<sabdfl>  * support those who have stepped up, when they have to take decisions
<cprofitt> I am not sure how to word that... we value discussion and disagreement... but not negativity for the sake of being negative.
<sabdfl>   -> recognise that anybody who HAS gotten into a leadership position, or any team doing the work, is better suited to their decisions than anybody else
<YokoZar> sabdfl: it seems rather broad (and frankly a bit like wishful thinking) to just say that we make authoritative decisions and then everyone should be good with it from now on
<sabdfl>  * recognise that decisions which are deferred indefinitely are enormously destructive
<greg-g> cprofitt: Would my dent/tweet from earlier this week violate this rule? I said that I am a foresaken citizen because I use gnome-shell and a choice was made to modify a package to support Unity keyboard shortcuts that breaks them in gnome-shell. That decision was made but I disagree with it. I didn't go to my local governance board first.
<paultag> greg-g++
<sabdfl>    - the big thing we do better than some other community distros is simple: we take decisions
<paultag> keep in mind this is for both private and public interactions
<cprofitt> greg-g: I think it is different to prefer Gnome Shell vs. 'complain' about Unity
<dholbach> greg-g, you could just file a bug report
<sabdfl>   - it takes guts to make those decisions, when you have to, it's understandable you might have to justify them to those who support you further up the governance chain
<greg-g> dholbach: it was, and I linked to it
<paultag> cprofitt: saying I don't think Unity should be the default offhand counts as a CoC violation as is
<sabdfl>  - but it's not OK to have everyone in the community feel they have a right to beat you up for being there and doing the work
<cprofitt> paultag: I see that possible interpretation... not sure that is the intent
<YokoZar> sabdfl: taking decisions doesn't mean you impose on all contributors the requirement to agree to all decisions (especially _your_ fiat ones) in EVERY forum of conversation
<sabdfl>  - as a community, if we let people beat up leaders, we will end up with no leaders
<sabdfl> so
<greg-g> dholbach: also, is filing a bug report that disagrees with a choice (where there is no obvious right answre) a violation?
<paultag> cprofitt: so we need to fix the letter of the coc
<sabdfl> greg-g, when you disagree with a decision, what would you see as appropriate options?
<ScottK> The current draft (as I looked at it a few days ago) reads to me that one is not allowed to disagree at all except through higher governance bodies.
<cprofitt> I think we do not mind people taking a position that is different... but in a respectful way
<paultag> ScottK++
<ScottK> That is very much too restrictive.
<cprofitt> paultag: if we remove the last sentence from my draft that would be ok?
<soaringsky> cprofitt: +1
<ScottK> I have military experience and not even they are do dismissive of questioning.
<YokoZar> sabdfl: surely not forfeiting all conversation about it in even casual media
<sabdfl> greg-g, how will voicing disagreement to a decision which has been made, and supported up the governance chain, strengthen our ability to execute that decision?
<cjwatson> We do need to draw a line between beating up leaders and requiring everyone to be yes-men
<greg-g> sabdfl: I have a choice to engage with the decision makers at appropriate times (ie: what you listed above) but I also have the right to complain (yes, complain, voice dissent, voice disagreement, whatever you want to call it) publicly without first going to a governance body
<paultag> cprofitt: I've not read it, I'm in a work meeting, but I can check later
<cprofitt> paultag: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/Co
<cprofitt> paultag: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/CoC
<cprofitt> sorry
<greg-g> sabdfl: it isn't about strengthing the ability to execute a decision, that is neigher here nor there, it is about the freedom to voice disagreement. If I can't voice disagreement then I am not able to communicate, period.
<paultag> greg-g: I agree in so many ways
<cprofitt> sabdfl: I think greg-g and paultag are not talking about executing the decision, but reversing it... at times that does have value... Rhythmbox vs. Banshee
<paultag> I would never block the implementation
<beuno> greg-g, well, that paragraph *is* about strengthing the ability to execute a decision
<sabdfl> Laney, anybody who shows commitment and competence can get any role in ubuntu
<greg-g> cprofitt: not taling about any which way, I'm just tlaking about voicing my disagreement
<sabdfl> maco, i'm still trying to parse that
<beuno> maybe it's too restrictive
<cprofitt> understand now greg-g
<YokoZar> Simply put, we will inevitably lose an awful lot of credibility if Ubuntu members aren't permitted to complain about Ubuntu just as much as the general public when we make bad decisions.  Hell as this reads those blog posts I made complaining about the window controls on planet-ubuntu would be seen counter to the CoC.  That's NOT cool.
<ScottK> I think it's quite reasonable, when faced with a decision I disagree with to say, "I see you decided  foo.  I'm not sure that's right.  Did you consdier bar when making the decison?"
<greg-g> ScottK: exactly.
<ScottK> There are respectful and disrespectful ways to address post-decision angst.
<paultag> that would never block the technical implementation
<sabdfl> maco, i *think* that any two people who got into a debate like that would be asked, politely, to stop
<greg-g> This doesn't mean I can say "you all are idiots!" that is a violation of other sections of the CoC, of course
<paultag> and I don't think respectful disgagreement would block technical changes after decided
<dholbach> to me it seems like some assume that this is an edict or new law - whereas I see it as an attempt to frame how we want to work together and recognise that leadership is hard and that making decisions if you wish to listen to feedback endlessly is impossible - I don't see the majority of our discussion culture (mailing lists, RFCs, bug reports, etc) change at all
<ScottK> I think the disrespectful ones are already against the CoC.
<sabdfl> YokoZar, it's not possible to impose a requirement that people agree with everything
<sabdfl> this is not a brainwashing exercise
<greg-g> just that we can't voice that disagreement
<paultag> ScottK: right, exactly
<sabdfl> it's about recognising that a strong community supports moving forward even when there are things they don't agree with
<cjwatson> There's a grave danger in isolating leaders from any criticism at all, in that they will start to take bad decisions because people never tell them they're wrong
<YokoZar> sabdfl: it sounds like you would if you could here though, so you're going for the next best thing and asking them to be quiet about made decisions
<beuno> greg-g, the spirit, i think, is more about finding a healthier way of channeling disagreements
<beuno> not silencing them
<sabdfl> it's not as though i would walk away from the CC even though we have disagreed, individually, occasionally, right?
<greg-g> I apologize, I have a very important call to run in 10 minutes
<beuno> the wording is going to be tricky
<cprofitt> I fully appreciate the fact that respectful disagreement should be allowed...
<maco> would it be correct to assume the current discussion about decisions relates to some things i was involved with last year?
<Gwaihir> greg-g, could you send us or Laura your concerns and comments?
<YokoZar> sabdfl: What infuriates me (and I think others) about the current language is it seems like it even applies to the sorts of decisions that we frankly make very poorly
<greg-g> beuno: right, so say: "When we disagree we do so civily and do not impede the progress of a decision. If issues are unsurmountable, we go to the councils"
<sabdfl> ScottK, the language should not say "not allowed to disagree", it should say we find endless bickering and re-hashing destructive and distasteful
<greg-g> done
<cprofitt> I think we are really concerned about disagreement that is outside that or that causes a project to get 'blocked'
<Laney> sabdfl: I see that, but not everybody has the inclination, skill or time to be a governor. It sounded like you were saying that the only way to influence a decision (after it is made?) is to become a leader, which is quite onerous imho.
<ScottK> sabdfl: I agree with that.  I don't think the current language does that.
<paultag> not to mention burnout, Laney
<YokoZar> There have been downright arbitrary decisions in this project, either due to lack of time, information, or consequence.  Only the latter can be considered bikeshedding.
<cprofitt> we are growing short on time though... would it be acceptable to have a UDS session on this topic?
<sabdfl> greg-g, sure, drawing attention to an issue is fine of course
<sabdfl> for a start, it may bring other opinions to the table that shed new light
<greg-g> sabdfl: then I think we're in an odd agreement ;)
<cjwatson> "do not expect to delay, debate or discuss any decision after the fact, except through escalation to a more senior governance body" - some kind of insertion of "endlessly" there would help, or something
<Laney> I think the paragraph needs to be made less prescriptive.
<sabdfl> what this is aiming to do is shine a light on an anti-pattern where a single issue festers
<beuno> greg-g, yeah, I don't think there's a contraversty here, it's just hard to find the right wording
<paultag> cjwatson: in the end, talking about it is fine, so long as no one blocks the implementation
<greg-g> beuno: /me nods
<paultag> cjwatson: I don't think keeping the conversation going is a bad thing
<greg-g> alright, gotta run, sorry for leaving early, work calls :)
<cjwatson> FWIW, for decisions I take, I'd actually rather people came to me with their disagreement in the first instance, rather than taking it over my head to a governance body
<paultag> there's always next cycle
<Laney> If you want to get a decision revisited, do this. We don't want endless discussions, and leaders are free to ignore them.
<greg-g> thanks for the discussion, everyone
<cjwatson> the latter is a far more hostile and toxic thing to do to start with
<ScottK> If I were writing it, I'd put the burden on the decision maker to say "We've discussed enough, please see $GOVERNING_BODY if you can't accept the decision."
<YokoZar> I'm not fully convinced single issue festering is a substantial problem.  If people are complaining about active decisions about as much as obvious bugs then perhaps the decisions were just as big of a problem.
<Laney> If we're moving on, I'd like to look at the penultimate paragarph.
<Laney> I didn't notice that when reading before for some reason.
<sabdfl> Laney, no, not a governor, a participant. a contributor.
 * cielak is back (gone 05:05:25)
<sabdfl> what is destructive in other communities, and occasionally in ours, is where a team does a LOT of work and is then told "omg this is controversial"
<Laney> sabdfl: fine. You said something like "step up to the Kubuntu council" which sounds like "if you want to influence a decision, get on the board".
<sabdfl> then the discussion rages until it's basically moot because the world has moved on
<sabdfl> usually, in the direction the folks on point decided to go anyway
<paultag> sabdfl: so long as they're not blocking the technical implementation, talking about it's not bad
<Gwaihir> we are running short on time, we schedule an UDS session to discuss about this
<ScottK> sabdfl: So instead of saying no discussion after the fact, make it explicit that the decider can direct further discussion at the relevant governing board if people aren't satisfied.
<sabdfl> YokoZar, i doubt anybody feels like they have taken arbitrary decisions. they may seem that way to you, but then, yours might seem that way to me, yet I still find it worthwhile to support you, and them.
<beuno> ScottK, +1
<ScottK> That would, I think answer your point without causing the problems people are concerned about.
<Gwaihir> if everybody could please send us or to one of us all the comments or concerns they have, that would be great, we will collect them and add to our agenda
<sabdfl> cjwatson, i thought the language expressly encouraged what you prefer: raising issues with the team concerned first
<sabdfl> "  We expect participants in Ubuntu to resolve disagreements
<sabdfl>   constructively. When they cannot, we escalate the matter to
<sabdfl>   structures with designated leaders to arbitrate and provide clarity
<sabdfl>   and direction.
<sabdfl> "
<ScottK> Parts of it do that, but the one sentence we've been focused on  prohibits it.
<czajkowski> I have created a session to discuss this at uds http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20662/community-council-code-of-conduct-review/  as know people are leaving for other meetings/work
<cjwatson> sabdfl: it kind of contradicts itself a bit, I think.  I don't disagree with the apparent intent, seems to be a wording problem
<cjwatson> I often take an arbitrary decision if it simply doesn't seem to matter
<sabdfl> right, looks like decisiveness showed up twice
<cjwatson> It's valuable for people to come along and say "hang on, I actually cared about that"
<sabdfl> i will do a round to tighten up based on cprofitts proposal
 * ScottK is out of time.
<sabdfl> cjwatson, sure, we're in perfect agreement on that
<czajkowski> if anyone has any other feedback you can mail me czajkowski@ubuntu.com and I'll add it to the wiki for discussion at uds
<sabdfl> what matters is how they do that ("hang on, I actually cared about that" on IRC to you, vs "this is ridiculous" as a blog on planet.ubuntu.com)
<cprofitt> I think the core is to avoid stagnatiion due to disagreement... avoid the villification of leaders who made a difficult choice... and allow open conversations that are meaningful and respectful
<sabdfl> and also whether they accept that there is a reasonable limit to the time we should allocate to that review
<sabdfl> and that the appropriate process, if they don't get satisfaction, is to take it up the chain
<sabdfl> and that if your call has the support of, say, the platform leads, and the tech board, and the CC, that it stands
<sabdfl> and we should move on
<sabdfl> and they will be great contributors if they say "ok, I'll help" rather than getting rude about it
<sabdfl> that's all we're shooting for here
<cjwatson> I'd also say that we shouldn't be making it cumbersome to talk about less contentious things for the sake of solving problems that show up in a small number of very controversial cases
<sabdfl> of course
<YokoZar> cjwatson: right, we definitely do have arbitrary decisions.  Inconsequential ones are obviously there, but so are ones that do matter but it's simply not obvious to the decider that it does.  Avoiding discussion of that is...strange.
<cjwatson> solving the former problem should solve the latter as well]
<sabdfl> whatever language we settle on here, it's mainly for dealing with the hard / controversial decisions
<Gwaihir> we have only a coupe of minutes left
<cprofitt> +1 sabdfl
<dholbach> I will have to run in a bit as well, but I sent my thoughts on the other comments to the list - maybe some of us can get together tomorrow and try to fix some of the wording in one or the other case
<Gwaihir> dholbach, thanks
<cprofitt> this is not an easy thing to word out folks... and I truly appreciate everyone's input... it is your willingness to engage in a meaningful and thoughtful discussion that builds Ubuntu as a community
<Gwaihir> I think we should collect everything for the session at UDS and bring forward the discussion there
<cprofitt> +1 Gwaihir
<cprofitt> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20662/community-council-code-of-conduct-review/
<sabdfl> thanks folks, please excuse me, i'll propose a diff to CC based on cproffitt's language
<sabdfl> cprofitt, even
<Gwaihir> thanks sabdfl
<cprofitt> thanks sabdfl
<czajkowski> ok I've to head off also here
<Gwaihir> the  other topic (Defninig Support) should be postponed to the next meeting, sorry soaringsky
<soaringsky> Gwaihir: ok
<pleia2> thanks everyone
<dholbach> thanks everyone
<Gwaihir> admin stuff to do...
<cprofitt> thanks everyone!!
<Gwaihir> who is going to chair next time?
<czajkowski> Gwaihir: I will to give you a break
<Gwaihir> meetings minutes and agenda
<Gwaihir> thanks czajkowski :-)
<beuno> UDS is next week
<beuno> I'm guessing that will happen in-person?
<Gwaihir> #action czajkowski to chair next time
<meetingology`> ACTION: czajkowski to chair next time
 * beuno will not be at UDS
<Gwaihir> beuno, next public meeting should be in 2 weeks
<beuno> right
<Gwaihir> who can take care of the wiki?
<Gwaihir> ok, I updated the wiki for next meeting (time and topics)
<Gwaihir> #action Gwaihir update the wiki for next meeting
<meetingology`> ACTION: Gwaihir update the wiki for next meeting
<pleia2> meeting minutes?
<Gwaihir> cprofitt, pleia2, beuno fancy creating the IRC logs?
<Gwaihir> pleia2, up to that?
<pleia2> I always do them (except last time dholbach did!)
<Gwaihir> :-)
 * beuno is burried in work atm
<pleia2> logs are just a link, I can add that to the team report
<pleia2> but if someone else could do minutes that'd be great
<dholbach> I'll do it
<dholbach> but I've got to run
<dholbach> see you
<pleia2> thanks :)
<dholbach> am late already
<dholbach> bye
<Gwaihir> thanks dholbach, ciao!
<pleia2> Gwaihir: can you follow up with the tech board to see about them coming next meeting?
<Gwaihir> #action dholbach to create minutes
<meetingology`> ACTION: dholbach to create minutes
<Gwaihir> pleia2, sure, no problem
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> I think we're set the n:)
<Gwaihir> #action Gwaihir to follow up with the tech board for nect catch-up
<meetingology`> ACTION: Gwaihir to follow up with the tech board for nect catch-up
<Gwaihir> yep!
<Gwaihir> thanks all for coming, and see you next week for who will be at UDS!
<Gwaihir> have a nice day!
<Gwaihir> #endmeeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Thu May  3 18:07:10 2012 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-03-17.02.moin.txt
<meetingology`> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-03-17.02.html
<AlanBell> beuno: pleia2: czajkowski: YokoZar: hullo I am making an IRCC blog and adding it to the planet, I think I have to inform the CC of new team blogs or something, so consider yourselves informed :)
<beuno> AlanBell, ack!
<pleia2> thanks AlanBell
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-05-05
<roffiscoder_> HI
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-04-29
<kees> \o
<soren> Hi, guys. On a phone call.. Will try to multitask as best as I can.
 * cjwatson appears from lunch
<cjwatson> anyone else around?  I saw kees earlier ...
<cjwatson> we have an empty agenda, unless we want to argue about owncloud
<cjwatson> (or unless I've missed something)
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Apr 29 20:03:19 2013 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cjwatson> #topic action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2013-April/001033.html was the last set of minutes and contains no actions
<cjwatson> #topic mailing list review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: mailing list review
<cjwatson> the only thing I see here is the owncloud question: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-April/001595.html
<ScottK> Riddell: ^^^
<ScottK> I can speak to the issue if he's not around.
<cjwatson> I think I loosely concur with kees if it's practical to update those libraries, although Mark may also have a point if it's possible to run owncloud on top of juju+lxc or similar (it may not be, I don't know the details and this would require tech analysis)
<cjwatson> OTOH this has gone on for a long time and I'm not sure that the outcome of sitting on it is best for our users
<cjwatson> juju+lxc may not be practical for older releases.  But we shouldn't be bothering with something like this for oneiric now, IMO, given that it's about to drop out of support
<ScottK> I think we'd rather have it in Ubuntu if it's supportable and we have the older releases anyway.
 * kees is here.
<kees> I'm so confused about when this meeting is. :P
<ScottK> Now
<ScottK> ;-)
<cjwatson> Has anyone worked out how much work it'd be to update the dependent libraries directly?  That would certainly be the most regular approach within Ubuntu
<kees> ScottK: heh, thanks
<kees> my prior attempt to move it to 2100 london in my calendar seems to have failed. anyway, I'm here now.
<ScottK> We did look into a bit.  It's a lot of packages that have other rdepends.
<cjwatson> Is the analysis recorded anywhere?
<ScottK> And it's not needing newer packages JUST because of security issues.
<cjwatson> New interfaces?
<ScottK> I think it's locked in Riddell's brain/laptop.
<ScottK> API changes, I think.
<cjwatson> What was the last package we had this debate about?  Was it maas?
<ScottK> IIRC, yes.
<cjwatson> Something in that cluster at least
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2013-February/001012.html
<ScottK> What I think would be reasonable would be to embed code copies for updates (as was done with $LAST_ANNOYING_PACKAGE) and update libraries that are API/ABI stable but have security/functional issues.
<cjwatson> "If any of the changes can reasonably be handled within MAAS instead, then they should be, since that would involve the least total risk to 12.04 users."
<ScottK> Then we'd have a path forward that didn't involve breaking other stuff.
<cjwatson> Steve provided a compelling argument for why the requirements for SRU processing were opposed to those for MIR processing, IIRC
<ScottK> Right, I think something similar makes sense here.
<cjwatson> So I agree that security fixes should be applied directly, but it seems to me that the same argument applies: non-security changes that are required for owncloud should be bundled
<cjwatson> It would be nice to have a complete analysis that breaks down the two cases
<cjwatson> agree> with kees, I mean
<ScottK> Agreed.  I think all Riddell was looking for was a policy statement to that effect and then the details can be worked out with the SRU team.
<cjwatson> So that's my personal position.  I think it's backed by precedent but it would be nice to know if other TB members could get behind that.
 * ScottK looks around.
 * kees nods
<cjwatson> I'd whack pitti if I could see him ...
<stgraber> sorry, wifi problems, reading scrolback
<cjwatson> How about I write this up by mail and people can tear it apart if they disagree?
<ScottK> Sounds good to me.
<cjwatson> I'd in general like TB decisions to be consistent with previous ones unless there's a compelling reason not to :-)
<stgraber> so as I just told cjwatson in person, I'd be happy to make the MAAS exception more of a general case and allowing that kind of things as SRU
<cjwatson> I'm wary of a degree of floodgate-opening
<cjwatson> But, well, we've still only been forced to do this in a pretty small minority of cases
<stgraber> the SRU team would still have the go/no-go on that and I expect them to ask for a very detailed list of problems and explenation as to why the changes couldn't be cherry-picked
<ScottK> As I said when I applied for the clamav update exception, there are some upstreams you give an exception to because they are so sane about their maintenance practices.  Sometimes it ends up being the opposite.
<cjwatson> Heh, yeah.
<cjwatson> OK, I think we've exhausted this for now
<cjwatson> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<cjwatson> anyone?  anyone?  Bueller?
<kees> nothing from me
<cjwatson> OK, thanks all
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Apr 29 20:27:51 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-29-20.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-29-20.03.html
<kees> thanks cjwatson!
<cjwatson> I'll sort out minutes and that response as sprint time permits
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-04-30
<Daviey> (Anyone here for Ubuntu-Server meeting, it's not on this week - as it would be contentless)
<Daviey> Any questions, direct them to me - thanks
<arosales> fyi for folks interested in Ubuntu Server meeting. The next one will be held May 14. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting wiki updated
<SergioMeneses> arosales, thanks
<arosales> SergioMeneses, sure, np.
<arosales> I'll also send something out to the ubunt-server list
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-05-01
<dosaboy> hey guys, is the foundations meeting happening today?
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-05-02
<gipsyhnh> community member is right now or what time can i know?
<dholbach> o/
<czajkowski> aloha
 * cprofitt waves
<czajkowski> best timezone greeting :)
<Gwaihir> o/
<beuno> o/
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  2 17:01:28 2013 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<czajkowski> anyone from the forums council about
<czajkowski> hmm cant really tackle their request without knowing what the issue is.
<elfy> yea
<czajkowski> ah cool
<cprofitt> just pinged the forum irc channel
<elfy> 2 ticks
<czajkowski> #topic Forums council request
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Forums council request
<elfy> we'd just like a bit of help getting this moved along - it's been left since they checked the security aspects
<elfy> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=21293
<czajkowski> elfy: ok and as a first port of call have ye asked for an update in #canonical-sysadmin ?
<elfy> yep
<elfy> on the 26th - when it got taken and then given to nobody
<czajkowski> right that was the week before last and before release week
<elfy> aas far as we are aware they have the plugins - or at least we assume so as they vetted them
<beuno> right, release week probably got in the way
<elfy> so I'll wait 2 weeks and come back and ask again them
<elfy> s/then
<dholbach> might be worth just asking in #canonical-sysadmin again
<czajkowski> I dont mind chasing up on tickets, but I do think we need to give the folks in sysadmin a bit of a chance to deal with tickets and allowing for release week and sprint/work :)
<elfy> the ticket was raised a while back - at the behest of sysadmin to look at them
<czajkowski> have just asked in the channel now so hopefully get an update on that
<czajkowski> how else can we help?
<elfy> that's all thanks
<elfy> shall wait and see ;)
<cprofitt> thanks elfy
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<czajkowski> CC folks any thing else we need to look at
<dholbach> there are a few open threads we should reply to
<dholbach> the trello is up to date AFAICS
<czajkowski> nod
<czajkowski> s
<dholbach> I don't have anything apart from that to discuss
<cprofitt> I do not have anything else to discuss
<beuno> I haven't fully woken up yet
<czajkowski> I'm all good here
<czajkowski> mailed all the teams today and updated our wiki
<czajkowski> though I think translations are down twice
<cprofitt> thanks for doing that czajkowski
<czajkowski> so need to redit that
<czajkowski> me and the wiki never see eye to eye :)
<czajkowski> does anyone else here wish to bring something to the CC ?
<czajkowski> right
<czajkowski> #action beuno to update the wiki with the mins of the meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: beuno to update the wiki with the mins of the meeting
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  2 17:13:23 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-05-02-17.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-05-02-17.01.html
<beuno> czajkowski, sneaky
<cprofitt> thanks for coming everyone!
<czajkowski> beuno: hehehe :)
<dholbach> thanks a lot!
<zequence> czajkowski: Sorry I missed the meeting. Is it every thursday?
 * zequence == Kaj Ailomaa / project lead for Ubuntu Studio
<czajkowski> zequence: hey so you'll see the invitation was for a certain date. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda  lists the dates for each group to attend
<czajkowski> zequence: stuido is due on the 4th July
<czajkowski> so ages away
<zequence> czajkowski: Alright, thanks
<acoleman1981> has anyone else had the issue of a usb keyboard and mouse working but when removing the usb devices and trying to use the installed touchpad and keyboard (laptop) it only works every other reboot?  Please private message me with any help available or links to instructions. Thanks!
<costales> exit
<costales> exit
<costales> exit
<me4oslav> snwh - ping me
<bkerensa> ohai
<s-fox> hai
<TadeasParik> hello
 * s-fox was here all along, honest
<sachy> hi
<nik90> hi
<afigueiras> hello
<snwh> hello all
<me4oslav> hello
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<Chauncellor> Â¡Hola!
<Noskcaj> hello
<iulian> #startmeeting 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  2 22:02:13 2013 UTC.  The chair is iulian. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<iulian> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 2200 UTC meeting for May 2, 2013.
<iulian> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<iulian> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<iulian> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<iulian> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<iulian> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<iulian> #voter s-fox bkerensa micahg hggdh PabloRubianes iulian
<iulian> #voters s-fox bkerensa micahg hggdh PabloRubianes iulian
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes bkerensa hggdh iulian micahg s-fox
<iulian> Noskcaj: Hi. You're the first one, so please go ahead.
<Noskcaj> My name is Jackson Doak, my wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Noskcaj .  I started using Ubuntu in 10.10 and started helping the community shortly after alpha 3 12.10. I have since ran ~300 iso tests, helped make testdrive active again and am co-head of testing for xubuntu (i share the possition with elfy).
<Noskcaj> i ran for xubuntu project lead but lost 22-2
<Noskcaj> i didn't have time to put that result onto the wiki
<hggdh> Noskcaj: no problem there :-)
<iulian> Noskcaj: That's alright. We are ready to vote.
<iulian> #vote Noskcaj for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Noskcaj for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bkerensa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bkerensa
<iulian> +1 - good work.
<meetingology> +1 - good work. received from iulian
<hggdh> +1 testimonials *do* help!
<meetingology> +1 testimonials *do* help! received from hggdh
<s-fox> +1 - nice to see all the support
<meetingology> +1 - nice to see all the support received from s-fox
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
 * SergioMeneses hugs Noskcaj 
<Noskcaj> :)
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Noskcaj for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<iulian> Noskcaj: Congratulations.
<nik90> congrats Noskcaj :)
<s-fox> Congratulations
<TadeasParik> welcome
<Noskcaj> yay, thank you
<hggdh> Noskcaj: welcome! And thank you for all your work :-)
<sachy> congratz
<SergioMeneses> congrats Noskcaj and welcome on board!
<bkerensa> congrats and keep up the good work!
<snwh> well done sir
<afigueiras> congrats
<me4oslav> grats!
<iulian> It seems that Amir Eldor is not here at the moment so we shall go on to the next one.
<iulian> sachy: Go ahead.
<sachy> Hi, my name is Martin Sacha https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinSacha and Im using Ubuntu as primary OS since 2009. Im working in Czech community as main translator and on czech forum, as you can see on wiki page.
<iulian> #voters IdleOne
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne PabloRubianes bkerensa hggdh iulian micahg s-fox
<sachy> Now we are preparing Raring release party in Prague
<TadeasParik> From my side there is big support to sachy , our Czech LoCo is not so big and he is really big contributor...
<iulian> sachy: Thank you.
<iulian> Any questions?
<s-fox> is anyone here in support of sachy ?
<TadeasParik> yes
<TadeasParik> me...
<hggdh> anyone more to vouch for sachy?
<sachy> Sadly VojtechTrefny cannot be here
<TadeasParik> if you have any questions, just ask me
<hggdh> TadeasParik: what we -- at least I -- would like to see is more testimonials
<iulian> #vote sachy for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Please vote on: sachy for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<iulian> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from iulian
<s-fox> +1 - i would prefer you to reapply in 6 months with more support from the community
<meetingology> +1 - i would prefer you to reapply in 6 months with more support from the community received from s-fox
<hggdh> +0 -- testimonials are really important
<meetingology> +0 -- testimonials are really important received from hggdh
<IdleOne> +0 , needs more testimonials from the greater ubuntu community
<meetingology> +0 , needs more testimonials from the greater ubuntu community received from IdleOne
<bkerensa> 0+ - Increase contributions and improve testimonials
<meetingology> 0+ - Increase contributions and improve testimonials received from bkerensa
<PabloRubianes> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from PabloRubianes
<iulian> s-fox: Did you mean -1 or +1?
<s-fox> i mistyped. i am a firm -1
<TadeasParik> hggdh, did you see his personal page on wiki?
<iulian> OK.
<iulian> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from iulian
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: sachy for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:1 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<IdleOne> sachy: You are doing great work and we want you to continue. Please don't be discouraged by this outcome.
<sachy> ok, thank you
<iulian> sachy: And please do come back!
<iulian> Chauncellor: You're up next.
<bkerensa> sachy:  Look forward to seeing you re-apply in six months!
<Chauncellor> My name is Brett Cornwall. My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChauncellorUbuntuApplication. I started using Ubuntu in 7.04 and most of my contributions are mostly in bug work (and in previous years I maily gave support in IRC). I now work a lot on Compiz bug triaging/cleanup and go on AskUbuntu every so often to help with questions.
<PabloRubianes> Me too sachy
<Chauncellor> If Omer Akram is here I would be confident that he would endorse me
<iulian> OK, thanks very much Chauncellor.
<iulian> Any questions for Brett?
<s-fox> Chauncellor:  you have a soulful history on ubuntu forums. can you please explain your infractions ?
<s-fox> colourful
<Chauncellor> Sure :)
<Chauncellor> The first infraction was merely a playful code snippet that I was naive enough to publish - 'rm -rf'
<Chauncellor> I used that to prove a point
<IdleOne> you consider that "playful" ?
<Chauncellor> ill-advised, of course
<Chauncellor> it was meant as sarcasm, and not at all was a direction
<Chauncellor> it was used as a poor example
<Chauncellor> As for the second, I had a small squabble with a forum member on the ubuntu+1 development boards - I rose to his taunt, something I certainly should not have done
<Chauncellor> if I do hit that rare occasion upon which I feel heated, I normally turn the monitor off and simmer for an hour before returning
<Chauncellor> I am extremely unfortunate to have not done so at that point
<Chauncellor> I do hope this can be looked past as a good deal of time has passed
<Chauncellor> A regretful decision
<IdleOne> How long ago was this?
 * s-fox is checking dates.
<Chauncellor> A few years - 2010? I can go check
<Chauncellor> I have a slow internet connection presently
<IdleOne> s-fox: is looking it up
<IdleOne> Anybody else have any questions while we wait?
<s-fox> advising a member to remove /boot was may 19th 2010
<lousygarua> AHHH I'M LATE SORRY
<Chauncellor> I would like to once again claim that I did not advise any member to actually run that command
<s-fox> using foul language towards a community member was july 20th 2010
<iulian> Thanks for your comments, Chauncellor. We appreciate your honesty.
<Chauncellor> I take full responsibility for both and have sent apologies
<Chauncellor> We are on good terms now
<iulian> #vote Chauncellor for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Please vote on: Chauncellor for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<iulian> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from iulian
<PabloRubianes> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from PabloRubianes
<s-fox> -1 - i am sorry but no. i cannot support this application.   if you can get ranch hand to support your application i would be willing to re-evaluate
<meetingology> -1 - i am sorry but no. i cannot support this application.   if you can get ranch hand to support your application i would be willing to re-evaluate received from s-fox
<hggdh> -1 looking at some bugs you worked on, aggressive comments and responses
<bkerensa> -1 - I'm discouraged by the infractions on Ubuntu Forums.
<meetingology> -1 looking at some bugs you worked on, aggressive comments and responses received from hggdh
<meetingology> -1 - I'm discouraged by the infractions on Ubuntu Forums. received from bkerensa
<iulian> IdleOne?
<IdleOne> Chauncellor: you are aware that forum posts are public, the user it was directed at may not have run the command but who knows if some unsuspecting user could have. Our actions affect more than the person we are speaking to.
<IdleOne> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from IdleOne
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Chauncellor for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:6 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
<Chauncellor> How kind
<s-fox> Chauncellor:  contact ranch hand would be my advice.
<IdleOne> I would encourage you to continue doing good work and come back at a future date, this won't be held against you forever.
<hggdh> Chauncellor: this is the type of response that made us stop and -1 you...
<iulian> lousygarua: Hello. Could you please introduce yourself?
<lousygarua> hello
<lousygarua> I'm Amir from Israel
<lousygarua> Currently acting as the leader of the LoCo team, as no one else would take the lead
<lousygarua> I've been Linuxing since 2006 and Ubuntuing since 2008. I've been an active member in the Israeli community for quite some time
<lousygarua> helping in forums, drupaling on our websites, supporting on our IRC channel
<IdleOne> lousygarua: could you link to your wiki page please
<lousygarua> IdleOne, here, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AmirEldor
<bkerensa> lousygarua: Is your LoCo been pretty active since you have led it? I'm trying to get a idea of how big your contribution is there
<lousygarua> bkerensa, it's a small country, and we don't have many volunteers
<iulian> lousygarua: When did you guys have the last LoCo meeting?
<lousygarua> iulian, we don't have people to do effective LoCo meeting. We mainly communicate over the internet and coordinate tasks. Tomorrow I'm going to have some kind of 'LoCo' meeting with a guy who wants to help develop the loco
<lousygarua> we will also advocate Ubuntu on an upcoming annucal Linux convention in August
<IdleOne> loco meetings can be on irc, they don't have to be in person.
<lousygarua> I do everything I can to keep the blood streaming throupgh our communities
<lousygarua> When it's just one or two people, we prefer using the phone or our mailing list for decisions and discussions
<lousygarua> Our LoCo is in bad shape
<iulian> lousygarua: What are your future plans to fix that?
<lousygarua> We plan to translate and contribute to the Ubuntu Advocacy Kit (by Jono Bacon if I'm not mistaken?)
<lousygarua> continue support in our forums and site
<lousygarua> we get a lot of hits from Windows users on our /download page
<iulian> lousygarua: i see.
<lousygarua> through analytics I've recently installed
<lousygarua> with some effort and help we can help raise more awareness to FOSS in Israel
<iulian> Any other questions?
<lousygarua> Also, we need to make a better impression of Ubuntu Israel as well. Back on 2008 we had a bad LoCo lead which gave a bad impression on the Ubuntu LoCo to other LUGs
<lousygarua> ok I will stop now :)
<iulian> #vote lousygarua for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Please vote on: lousygarua for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<hggdh> +1 -- persistence is appreciated. But I really, really would love to see more testimonials
<meetingology> +1 -- persistence is appreciated. But I really, really would love to see more testimonials received from hggdh
<bkerensa> +0 - I would like to see more work maybe in Translations or LoCo growth.
<IdleOne> lousygarua: I hope to see you continue doing good work and more of it :)
<meetingology> +0 - I would like to see more work maybe in Translations or LoCo growth. received from bkerensa
<iulian> +0 at the moment. You are on the right track though. Please do keep it up. I'd also like to see more testimonials and more people involved in the LoCo team that you are leading.
<meetingology> +0 at the moment. You are on the right track though. Please do keep it up. I'd also like to see more testimonials and more people involved in the LoCo team that you are leading. received from iulian
<s-fox> +0 more testimonials would be nice, as would more translations
<meetingology> +0 more testimonials would be nice, as would more translations received from s-fox
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: lousygarua for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:3
<meetingology> Motion carried
<lousygarua> Thank you all
<IdleOne> wait
<lousygarua> Even if I did get through the motion I would have continue my work
<lousygarua> IdleOne, I am here
<IdleOne> ok, give us a moment please
<iulian> lousygarua: Unfortunately you have been unsuccessful this time but like we have said above please do keep up the good work and do reapply in a couple of months.
<iulian> snwh: You're up next.
<snwh> thanks
<snwh> Well, my name is Sam Hewitt and I'm primarily an open-source designer. I've been using Ubuntu since 7.10 (if memory serves). In 2012, I helped found the open source development team: Freyja Development, where we work on projects for Ubuntu. The most familiar one being Unity Tweak Tool. Prior to that, I contributed to various smaller projects, where I could. Currently, I and the rest of the team are working on our next project; also,
<snwh> I'm personally working on an open source icon and theme set. Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/snwh
<lousygarua> iulian, alright
<iulian> lousygarua: Feel free to /query me if you have any questions or anything.
<hggdh> lousygarua: we need 4 +1s to approve
<snwh> I could throw in that I write for OMG Ubuntu I guess
<bkerensa> snwh: that wont help here much ;)
<snwh> bkerensa, worth a shot ;)
<IdleOne> lol
<IdleOne> that isn't true.
<lousygarua> hggdh, It's ok, I see :)
<IdleOne> our personal opinions of a website doesn't deminish the fact that you still do write about ubuntu
<iulian> Any questions for snwh?
<PabloRubianes> lousygarua: and if you need help with your loco you can ask to the lococouncil for ideas
<snwh> I have personal opinions about the site as well :)
<hggdh> heh
<iulian> #vote snwh for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: snwh for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<bkerensa> +1 - I think your work on various apps used on Ubuntu Desktop improve the value to the Community.
<meetingology> +1 - I think your work on various apps used on Ubuntu Desktop improve the value to the Community. received from bkerensa
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: snwh for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<snwh> Wow, thanks :D
<nik90> congrats sam :)
<iulian> snwh: Congratulations.
<me4oslav> grats Sam!
<IdleOne> congrats snwh :)
<hggdh> snwh: welcome!
<IdleOne> Welcome
 * snwh feels appreciated :)
<afigueiras> congratulations
<iulian> nik90: Shoot!
<nik90> Hello everyone, I am Nekhelesh Ramananthan. My wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nekhelesh%20Ramananthan.
<nik90> I have been using Ubuntu since 8.04. My first real inspirations to contribute started with quicklist support for applications in 12.04 and also the Muktware Ubuntu Manual 12.04. I then expanded to other areas like blogging, helping new users and coding for the Ubuntu Touch Clock app project.
<nik90> I have been helped by Michael Hall, and now I am trying to return some of that back to the Ubuntu Community.
<lousygarua> PabloRubianes, how should I message the council? By email or in an IRC channel?
<IdleOne> lousygarua: email would be best
<iulian> #vote nik90 for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: nik90 for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<iulian> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from iulian
<hggdh> +0 -- we need more testimonials about your work for Ubuntu, we cannot judge it otherwise
<meetingology> +0 -- we need more testimonials about your work for Ubuntu, we cannot judge it otherwise received from hggdh
<s-fox> +0 same reason as hggdh
<meetingology> +0 same reason as hggdh received from s-fox
<PabloRubianes> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from PabloRubianes
<bkerensa> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from bkerensa
<IdleOne> +0 for now. I would like to see more testimonials from current members
<meetingology> +0 for now. I would like to see more testimonials from current members received from IdleOne
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: nik90 for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:6
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<iulian> nik90: Unfortunately you have been unsuccessful. Please get more testimonials and reapply in a few months time. I'm pretty certain that you will get through next time.
<iulian> me4oslav: You're up next. Please introduce yourself.
<nik90> iulian: sure I will do that next time. Thanks for your time
<me4oslav> Hello there folks, my name is Georgi Karavasilev, my wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/me4oslav . I am Ubuntu user since 6.06 and started contributing to during the 12.10 cycle and since then I've been "full steam ahead" with (mostly design) contributions.
<me4oslav> As written in the wiki I am all around design guy and have redesigned and designed a bunch of applicatiosn already.
<me4oslav> You could say I'm most famous for my work with Freyja development team with Unity Tweak Tool and Synaptic and working with mpt on Kazam and I'm also the chied designer for Smuxi irc cleint.
<iulian> nik90: Keep up the good work!
<me4oslav> I've also contributed to the design of System Testing, Qreator, Ubuntu Software Centre and helped a numerous community chaps with their applications designs.
<me4oslav> Apart from the design work I've also written some articles on OMG! Ubuntu, answered a nadful of AskUbuntu questions, helped Kazam with a few bugfixes, contributed with some icons design work for OneHundredScopes project.
<me4oslav> and that will be all :) ... oh and I love Doctor Who (not that this counts for anything :>)
<TadeasParik> iulian,  I do not understand why do you use only few minutes for each "next" member?
<TadeasParik> in the past it was different
<TadeasParik> there are no questions from your side
<TadeasParik> do not you have time?
<iulian> TadeasParik: We have limited time, we cannot go on forever. And please don't disturb the meeting. Wait till it's finished.
<s-fox> We have quite a number of applicants and a limited time period.
<lousygarua> Goodbye guys, thank you, off to install Ubuntu Studio
<iulian> #vote me4oslav for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Please vote on: me4oslav for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<hggdh> +1 thank you for your work, and please do keep on :-)
<meetingology> +1 thank you for your work, and please do keep on :-) received from hggdh
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<bkerensa> +1 - I think your work brings great value to the Community.
<meetingology> +1 - I think your work brings great value to the Community. received from bkerensa
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: me4oslav for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<iulian> me4oslav: Congrats.
<me4oslav> \O/
<IdleOne> Congrats!
<snwh> :D
<me4oslav> Thanks you so much
<xhaker> congrats!
<nik90> me4oslav: congrats :)
 * me4oslav will try a huge IRC party
<iulian> Pyae Sone cannot make it today.
<s-fox> :)
<IdleOne> next!
<iulian> afigueiras: You're up next, please fire away.
<afigueiras> Hi everyone, my name is Ana Figueiras and my wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnaFigueiras
<afigueiras>  I'm from Portugal and I'm an Ubuntu user since Ubuntu 5.04. I'm a member  an active member of the Portuguese LoCo team, lately involved in organising the Portuguese community and its activities (such as meetings, release parties, etc.). Our latest event was the 13.04 release party.
<afigueiras> I also started a Ubuntu Portugal facebook page where we share news and information about the community's activity https://www.facebook.com/ubuntuportugal Since its creation we've had more people coming to us and asking us about Ubuntu.
<afigueiras> Now I'm currently trying to improve our translation team by creating a smaller team in charge of translations and bilding our own term base for the translations.
<xhaker> afigueiras has been devoting a lot of time to the Portugal LoCo team and with great outcomes. I wrote a testimonial on her page +1
<tcarrondo> afigueiras, just write you my small testimonial @ the wiki
<iulian> afigueiras: Thank you.
<iulian> We shall vote now.
<iulian> #vote afigueiras for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Please vote on: afigueiras for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1 Good to see the pics from ubuntu events
<meetingology> +1 Good to see the pics from ubuntu events received from s-fox
<PabloRubianes> +1 keep working hard!
<meetingology> +1 keep working hard! received from PabloRubianes
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<bkerensa> +1 I think your participation in Ubuntu Women brings value to the Community and your photos show your advocacy work!
<meetingology> +1 I think your participation in Ubuntu Women brings value to the Community and your photos show your advocacy work! received from bkerensa
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<hggdh> +1 pois... obrigado por tua ajuda! E fico feliz de ver mais pessoas de PT por cÃ¡!
<meetingology> +1 pois... obrigado por tua ajuda! E fico feliz de ver mais pessoas de PT por cÃ¡! received from hggdh
<iulian> Heh. :)
<iulian> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: afigueiras for Ubuntu membership.
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<IdleOne> Congrats afigueiras !!!
<bkerensa> what he said ^
<iulian> Congratulations, afigueiras.
<afigueiras> Thank you :)
<s-fox> Excellent, really good to see :)
<tcarrondo> parabÃ©ns ana!
<snwh> Awesome possum!
<s-fox> Well done
<xhaker> Congrats afigueiras
<afigueiras> I'll keep up the good work
<hggdh> afigueiras: bem vinda, e parabÃ©ns
<afigueiras> :)
<iulian> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  2 23:03:09 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-05-02-22.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-05-02-22.02.html
<s-fox> Thank you for chairing iulian
<iulian> Thanks everyone!
<snwh> no, thank you
<TadeasParik> Could you, please, explain me the different between this vote and between the votes in the past?
<TadeasParik> you have few minutes for each person
<TadeasParik> but
<TadeasParik> on your wiki is written:
<TadeasParik>  "Add yourself to the list early, the board meetings usually take about an hour and if there are many applicants some may get postponed until the next meeting.
<TadeasParik> Is this really normal? I was asked for 20 minutes, and today? You are able to refuse someone and also accept within 2 minutes?
<sachy> It is written directly under the table of applicatnts
<hggdh> TadeasParik: we look at the wiki, at LP, and other places as needed. We discuss internally. If there are questions from us, we ask them.
<IdleOne> TadeasParik: We had a lot of applicants today and we wanted to make sure we got them all done.
<TadeasParik> sorry, but you did not ask
<sachy> and you did not ask me *anythink... why?
<IdleOne> TadeasParik: If we did not ask any qyestions it is because we did not have any for you
<TadeasParik> not for me
<TadeasParik> I am already a member
<IdleOne> or for sachy
<TadeasParik> busy...  :) ok, just try to change... ;
<nik90> IdleOne: do I need to wait for 6 months before I reapply for membership again?
<IdleOne> sachy: if you feel we did not come to the correct decision I recommend you email the membership board and we will be happy to look at your application again.
<TadeasParik>  IdleOne , we will do it
<IdleOne> nik90: We usually say 6 months but if you feel you are ready before that time and have followed our suggestions please do reapply earlier.
<TadeasParik> 2 minutes without questions? sorry...
<sachy> IdleOne: sure, thanks for tip
<IdleOne> ok, I am off for now. thank you all for your time
<snwh> I guess i can stop lurking now. :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-04-28
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Apr 28 16:32:05 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm working on the openjdk updates that should go out today or first thing tomorrow
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> I've got 14.10 planning to do. I'll do some prep work then talk to mdeslaur and eventually the whole team
<jdstrand> an also sprint planning
<jdstrand> now that utopic is open, I'll upload an apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu 1.2, which will also have a few policy updates
<jdstrand> I hope to start some other updates as well
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> friday I'm doing some patch piloting
<mdeslaur> I have a few updates to test and to publish
<mdeslaur> that's about it for me
<mdeslaur> hrm, s b eattie is out
<mdeslaur> so, uh, tyhicks?
<jdstrand> so is jj
<tyhicks> I am finally back to looking at kdbus today
<tyhicks> I'll also get an upload ready for bug #1313282
<ubottu> bug 1313282 in clamav (Ubuntu) "apparmor="DENIED" for freshclam (CLAMAV) " [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313282
<tyhicks> (easy fix)
<tyhicks> I've fallen behind on eCryptfs maintenance, so there will need to be a little bit of catching up this week
<tyhicks> then I'll sync up w/ mdeslaur on what's next
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> I don't see sarnold
<tyhicks> so chrisccoulson, you're up
<mdeslaur> sarnold: welcome
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up :)
<mdeslaur> sarnold: get stuck in line at *$? :)
<sarnold> mdeslaur: heh, I tried rebooting my pandaboard four or five times before giving up and using irssi on my laptop :(
<mdeslaur> sad panda
<sarnold> very sad panda
<sarnold> I'm on community this week :) so looking forward to those delicious debdiffs :)
<mdeslaur> yummy :P
<sarnold> as far as I know, I'm all caught up on apparmor patch review :) so unless john went crazy this weekend, I'll pick up a security update or two
<mdeslaur> sarnold: I have something I'd like you to poke at first
<sarnold> mdeslaur: oooh? :)
<mdeslaur> sarnold: fixing test-django.py for saucy+, and documenting how to run the maas test suite to test django also
<sarnold> mdeslaur: oh! that's a good idea.
<jdstrand> sarnold: is that all you had to report?
<sarnold> wow, lucid django is ooooold..
<sarnold> jdstrand: yeah, I think so :)
<sarnold> chrisccoulson?
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: back to you
<chrisccoulson> oh, high :)
<chrisccoulson> sorry, just popped for dinner
<chrisccoulson> this week is mozilla update week, so I'll be handling that
<chrisccoulson> it's a big update as well, it's got the new firefox UI
<sarnold> eep
<chrisccoulson> i've also got lots of oxide bugs too :)
<mdeslaur> new UI sounds scary
<chrisccoulson> it's nice ;)
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libplrpc-perl.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dracut.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libcgroup.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/k4dirstat.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/forked-daapd.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> oh, I forgot to mention this in the announcements:
<jdstrand> Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for precise and saucy for virtualbox (LP: #1307725). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1307725 in virtualbox (Ubuntu Saucy) "Multiple security vulnerabilities" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307725
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Apr 28 16:55:03 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-04-28-16.32.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<mdeslaur> \o
<mdeslaur> hi infinity
<infinity> Hi!
<kees> o/
<infinity> I wonder if pitti has forsaken us again.
<infinity> stgraber: If pitti doesn't show, I think you get to be chair (lucky you).
<stgraber> hmm, right, TB meeting, I guess I can do that
<stgraber> #startmeeting Technical Board meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Apr 28 20:06:55 2014 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #topic action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: action review
<stgraber> None listed on the wiki
<stgraber> #topic Review our current "provisional" Micro Release Exceptions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Review our current "provisional" Micro Release Exceptions
<stgraber> who owns that topic? is there anything to discuss now?
<kees> I was hoping to get help from bdmurray :)
<kees> nothing to discuss, afaik
<stgraber> ok, moving on then (and carrying it in the agenda)
<stgraber> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<stgraber> so I think the Kylin stuff got all sorted out on the list
<slangasek> ah, hello
<infinity> List seems mostly quiet.
<stgraber> besides that, we had a couple of MRE requests which also seem to be discussed over there
<stgraber> I'm not seeing anything that's not at least progressing on the list so I guess we can move on
<slangasek> yes
<stgraber> #topic Check up on community bugs (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<stgraber> "
<stgraber> There are currently no open bugs.
<stgraber> "
<stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Select a chair for the next meeting
<stgraber> that'd be pitti
<infinity> Again.
<infinity> Someone should mail and remind him about it. :P
<infinity> (And see if maybe our meeting slot is just horribly bad for him, we could shuffle it a bit, maybe)
<stgraber> I'll poke him on IRC
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: AOB
<stgraber> anything?
<slangasek> so there was a point on the list a while ago that I haven't seen really get taken up
<infinity> I'm too wrecked from release and opening to have coherent thought this week.
<stgraber> slangasek: is that sabdfl's e-mail?
<infinity> But we need to discuss the system image thing, at least.
<slangasek> which was Mark's request that we look at the question of convergence
<slangasek> yes
<infinity> Yeah.
<slangasek> do we just need to drive that via the list?
<stgraber> right, I did reply to that at least, was hoping the others would too...
<infinity> I think we need to start up some healthy debate on the list.
<slangasek> ok
<infinity> Current state of affairs, pros (and tons of cons) to "just doing system images for desktop as-is", and then drive to potential solutions from that obvious list of fails.
<stgraber> so yeah, you have 47 minutes of allocated TB meeting time left to look into this and reply on the list :)
<infinity> If nothing else, it'll improve the system image story on the phone to go through the thought exercise.
<stgraber> I'll take that silence as a sign that there's nothing else besides that :)
<stgraber> #endmetting
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Apr 28 20:16:18 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-04-28-20.06.moin.txt
<slangasek> yep, I think that's it - thanks
<infinity> I should probably also bring up "UTF-8 everywhere" as a matter of policy, before identifying all the bits that need breaking to JFDI a smooth switch from C to C.UTF-8
<stgraber> infinity: ah yeah, that'd be great, right after an LTS seems like a good time to do this and I'm definitely +1 on it
<infinity> Right, I'm going to abandon channel and have some lunch before my next meeting.
<infinity> \o
<mdeslaur> thanks stgraber
<stgraber> ok, thanks everyone for attending! bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-04-29
<smoser> o/
<chiluk> o/
<matsubara> o/
<lutostag> o/
<gnuoy> o/
<caribou> o/
<coreycb> o/
<smoser> hm...
<smoser> arosales did not update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> so that either means
<smoser> a.) arosales is chair
<smoser> b.) jamespage
<beisner> o/
<jamespage> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Apr 29 16:03:18 2014 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> hmm - let me dig
<jamespage> anyone know? I was not around last week
<jamespage> bad arosales
<smoser> i had an action item
<smoser> to talk to smb
<smoser> and that is in progress (wrt bug 1185756)
<ubottu> bug 1185756 in drbd8 (Ubuntu Precise) "drbd8-utils not compatible with linux-lts-raring kernel in 12.04" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1185756
<jamespage> great
<jamespage> thanks for the update
<jamespage> #topic Utopic development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Utopic development
<jamespage> so just in case anyone missed it utopic is open for development
<jamespage> syncs are happening from debian unstable; make sure you keep onto of any merges you did last as well
<jamespage> rbasak, are you able to send round a merge update to nudge us all?
<jamespage> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<jamespage> #action jamespage to update the meeting handy actions
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage to update the meeting handy actions
<jamespage> so aside from the daily distro grind, now is the time to start documenting features for 14.10 release and getting plans lined up
<rbasak> jamespage: will do
<jamespage> I know gaughen will be chasing everyone for blueprints!
<jamespage> rbasak, thanks!
<gaughen> jamespage, it's true! I have an email partially composed to nag folks. Creating the unicorn blueprints first
<gaughen> so I give folks a place to move stuff
<jamespage> after the lts releases conservative feature approach, feel free to make outlandish and streching objective for utopic
<jamespage> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jamespage> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jamespage> wow look at that - loads of bugs!
 * jamespage looks harder
<jamespage> looks like kirkland is on a few byobu bugs
<jamespage> I'll look at bug 1304135
<ubottu> bug 1304135 in juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty) "panic: runtime error: index out of range" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1304135
<jamespage> some maas things - lutostag are you on those
<jamespage> ?
<jamespage> specifically bug 1311151 and bug 1311140
<ubottu> bug 1311151 in MAAS 1.5 "MAAS imports Trusty's 'rc' images by default." [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311151
<ubottu> bug 1311140 in python-seamicroclient (Ubuntu) "[SRU] powering multiple nodes errors with max retries" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311140
<lutostag> 1311140 is getting sru'd will take on the other as well
<jamespage> ditto bug 1310844 and bug 1310846
<ubottu> bug 1310844 in maas (Ubuntu Trusty) "find_ip_via_arp() results in unpredictable, and in some cases, incorrect IP addresses" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310844
<ubottu> bug 1310846 in maas (Ubuntu Trusty) "amt template gives up way too easily" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310846
<lutostag> jamespage: consider them mine
<jamespage> lutostag, marvellous
<jamespage> anyway - there are a few things on that list - lets try get them fixed
<jamespage> so everyone take a look an do bugs :-)
<jamespage> #subtopic Blueprints
<jamespage> already talked about that
<jamespage> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<jamespage> caribou, anything this week?
<caribou> strugglin a bit with bug 1313602
<ubottu> bug 1313602 in nova-cloud-controller (Juju Charms Collection) "Nova-cloud-controller charms failed to sync ssh keys between compute nodes" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313602
<caribou> then talking about blueprints, I have demands to implement networked kernel dumps
<caribou> i.e. possibility to send the kernel vmcore to a remote location
<caribou> I'll craft a blueprint on this one
<jamespage> caribou, gnuoy or coreycb - any change either of you could help caribou out with the bug above?
<jamespage> its a scalability thing
<coreycb> jamespage, sure
<caribou> I'm facing a specific issue about sending all lines of the file
<caribou> coreycb: I'll ping you later
<jamespage> caribou, lets not get into details now :-)
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<caribou> thanks
<coreycb> caribou, yes sounds good
<jamespage> psivaa, anything for you?
<psivaa> jamespage: nothing from us this week too
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<jamespage> smb, sforshee: anything this week?
<sforshee> I'm working on some additional device support in lxc, that's about it
<jamespage> sforshee, oo - sounds interesting!
<jamespage> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jamespage> Openstack summit in atlanta in a few weeks
<jamespage> quite a few server team attending I suspect
<jamespage> anything else anyone is going to?
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<jamespage> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<jamespage> same time next week
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Apr 29 16:21:11 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-04-29-16.03.moin.txt
<jamespage> ttfn
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Apr 29 17:00:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Utopic
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<kamal> o/
<ppisati> o/
<sforshee> o/
<apw> o/
<bjf> o/
<chiluk> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report this week
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> The links above have 0 content for Utopic.  I'll try to get those fixed
<ogasawara> up to better reflect our work moving forward.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Our Trusty kernel has been pocket copied to seed Utopic.  We have opened
<ogasawara> the ubuntu-utopic kernel tree.  The master-next branch is currently
<ogasawara> tracking the v3.15-rc3 kernel.  We likely won't upload a v3.15 based
<ogasawara> kernel until a few more -rc releases come out.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> The schedule is currently under review.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Saucy/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Saucy/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Mar. 25):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Prep week
<bjf>   * Precise - Prep week
<bjf>   * Quantal - Prep week
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Prep week
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Prep week
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 27-Apr through 17-May
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          25-Apr   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 27-Apr - 03-May   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 04-May - 10-May   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 11-May - 17-May   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<smb> o/ (just noting that he did not miss the meeting completely, only halfway) ..
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Apr 29 17:04:47 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-04-29-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-04-30
<dholbach> good morning
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-05-01
<cjwatson> slangasek: around?
<cjwatson> ... guess not
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  1 15:04:04 2014 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<cjwatson> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo)
<cjwatson> jodh barry bdmurray caribou cjwatson mvo infinity doko slangasek xnox stgraber
<jodh> * foundations-1305-upstart-work-items:
<jodh>   - cgroup support: Reworking async test suite.
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>   - Raised MP for libnih test fix:
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/ubuntu/trusty/libnih/fix-test-output-crash/+merge/217199
<jodh> á½
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> sorry I'm late
<barry> ubuntu/debian: LP: #1308714, LP: #1290847, debian bug 743620, debian bug 741832, pytest 2.5.2-1, reviewed and sponsored pyotherside for zyga.  still have work to do on fixing ensurepip for python 3.4
<cjwatson> aha.  feel free to take over insofar as meetingology will let you :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1308714 in python-pip (Ubuntu Utopic) "sudo pip install installs into the system dist-packages by default" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1308714
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1290847 in python3.4 (Ubuntu) "pyvenv fails due to mising ensurepip module" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1290847
<ubottu> Debian bug 743620 in python-enum34 "python-enum34: broken symlink: /usr/share/doc/enum/rst -> html/_sources" [Minor,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/743620
<ubottu> Debian bug 741832 in src:flufl.i18n "flufl.i18n: FTBFS: error: /Â«PKGBUILDDIRÂ»/.pybuild/pythonX.Y_2.7/build/flufl/i18n/README.rst: No such file or directory" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/741832
<barry> phone: LP: #1313822, LP: #1313930, autopilot py3-only, autopilot-legacy (py2), porting ap tests to py3: address-book-app, gallery-app, friends-app.  reviewed notes-app.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1313822 in autopilot (Ubuntu) "Split source package into autopilot and autopilot-legacy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313822
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1313930 in camera-app "Port camera-app autopilot tests to Python 3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313930
<barry> done
<cjwatson> #chair slangasek
<meetingology> Current chairs: cjwatson slangasek
<cjwatson> there
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> all these fancy meetbot commands
<bdmurray> this covers about two weeks although I was on holiday for a couple of days last week
<bdmurray> fixed daisy oops with python-distro-info being outdated
<bdmurray> reported, tested, and fixed daisy bug 1310809
<bdmurray> research into indicator sound failures to retrace
<bdmurray> research into bug 1298683 regarding daisy causing swift tracebacks
<bdmurray> submitted RT #69861 regarding increasing swift's client_timeout
<ubottu> bug 1310809 in Daisy "apport transient errors cause retracers to hang" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310809
<bdmurray> updated daisy-retracer cron job for user counting with Ubuntu 14.10 and Ubuntu 14.04
<ubottu> bug 1298683 in Daisy "daisy is causing swift tracebacks" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1298683
<bdmurray> pushed errors changes for Ubuntu 14.0 and added milestones for 14.04.1 and 12.04.5
<bdmurray> updated assets.ubuntu.com for errors
<bdmurray> updated retracer config files fixing some issues
<bdmurray> investigation into iwfldump crashes for seth forshee, evan
<bdmurray> worked on a script to remove data from the OOPS CF in cassandra to save space
<bdmurray> sru verification of bug 1069019, 1310851, 1172740
<bdmurray> uploads of distro-info-data for stable releases with the new release - utopic
<ubottu> bug 1069019 in software-properties (Ubuntu Saucy) "[software-properties-gtk] can not delete, enable or modify any software source with non-ASCII characters in the comment" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1069019
<ubottu> bug 1310851 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Trusty) "Failed to fetch window does not appear" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310851
<ubottu> bug 1172740 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Quantal->Raring: UnicodeDecodeError: in NotEnoughFreeSpaceError" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1172740
<bdmurray> uploaded Saucy SRU for bug 1203919
<ubottu> bug 1203919 in update-manager (Ubuntu Saucy) "update-manager crashed with SystemExit in exit(): 0" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1203919
<bdmurray> updated meta-release file for trusty, and with utopic
<bdmurray> bug triage of ubuntu-release-upgrader, update-manager bug reports
<bdmurray> updated bugbot to mark duplicates of upgrade issues due to cinnamon (LP: #1279762)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1279762 in cinnamon (Ubuntu) "upgrade to 14.04 from 13.10 failed - cinnamon fails to upgrade" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1279762
<bdmurray> uploaded a saucy fix for ubuntu-release-upgrader bug 1310851 aka bug 1241660
<ubottu> bug 1241660 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "DistUpgradeFetcherCore error messages not displayed" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1241660
<bdmurray> submitted mp for ubuntu-archive-tools to quote package version in rate of crashes email
<bdmurray> ubiquity bug triage (verifying whether or not media identifies correctly)
<bdmurray> overrode increased crash rate for sflphone (package conflicts with a ppa version)
<bdmurray> pinged mvo about software-properties regression found by the phased updater
<bdmurray> â done
<cjwatson> I see no caribou here, so
<cjwatson> Some more bits and pieces of utopic setup, including getting image builds going.
<cjwatson> livefs in LP:
<cjwatson>  - https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/db-livefs/+merge/217206 ready for (re-)review.
<cjwatson>  - https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/livefs/+merge/217261 (main body of change) finished off and ready for review.
<cjwatson>  - https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/livefs-garbo/+merge/217784 (GC to avoid unbounded librarian growth) done and ready for review.  Discussed implications for cdimage with Adam.
<cjwatson>  - Working on browser code (i.e. a basic web UI; not intending to do anything fancy, just enough).
<cjwatson>  - Acquiring significant headache potential from Zope, which is only saved from being a more voluminous error message generator than C++ by the fact that you have to write vast quantities of XML first.
<cjwatson>  - I think I have about another day or two of straight LP development, then it's reviews/QA/deployment (but hopefully that should parallelise a bit better with other things) and the cdimage work.
<cjwatson> Backported a couple of GRUB network stack fixes (bug 1314134).
<ubottu> bug 1314134 in grub2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "network stack never yields control on busy networks" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1314134
<cjwatson> Write-up of click escalations passed to Michael.
<cjwatson> A bunch of syncs, merges, transitions and suchlike.
<cjwatson> Helped to trial a new OpenVPN setup for LaMont.
<cjwatson> ..
<xnox> mvo infinity doko -> excused themself. Should their reports be pasted in?
<slangasek> if you wish, but I assume everyone can see it in their mail and they're not available for cross-examination anyway :)
<slangasek>  * continue to make forward progress on the java role
<slangasek>  * discussions around go support
<slangasek>  * archive merges
<slangasek>  * beginning to prepare for Malta
<slangasek> (done)
<xnox> * SRU work:
<xnox>    - Sent patch to cjwatson for bug #1275162, cking revived his
<xnox>      hardware, will test once in utopic
<xnox>    - Crafted upstart job for gnome-keyring for bug #1271591 -
<xnox>      gpg/ssh/secrets/gnome-keyring agents should now be available in
<xnox>      upstart user-sessions. Once dust settles, will SRU into trusty
<ubottu> bug 1275162 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "incorrect efibootmgr command is set by update-grub under OVMF" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1275162
<xnox>    - Figured out that to solve bug #1242572 we first need
<ubottu> bug 1271591 in gnome-keyring (Ubuntu) "upstart job race prevents gnome-keyring from being ssh agent" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1271591
<xnox>      xkeyboard-config to support "super+space" combo for switching
<ubottu> bug 1242572 in xkeyboard-config (Ubuntu) "xkeyboard-config, console-setup, and ubiquity should use Super+Space for switching keyboard layouts" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1242572
<xnox>      layouts. Tested multiple patches from maarten lankhorst. Once
<xnox>      that lands, we can patch console-setup/ubiquity to support and
<xnox>      use super+space by default.
<xnox>    - Uploaded fix for bug #1285312
<ubottu> bug 1285312 in mdadm (Ubuntu Trusty) "Setting up mdadm (3.2.5-5ubuntu3) freezes after calling grub1's update-grub from postinst" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1285312
<xnox>    - verified ubiquity trusty sru bug #1309458
<ubottu> bug 1309458 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[kubuntu] ubiquity installer crashes when clicking release notes link" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1309458
<xnox>    - ubiquity got accepted for bug #1277706
<ubottu> bug 1277706 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity in precise-updates, doesn't have tight enough dependency on python-apt leading to crashers" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1277706
<xnox>    
<xnox> * Unicorns:
<xnox>    - did some transition
<xnox>    - some forwarding patches to debian/getting packages in sync
<xnox>    - working on x86-android toolchain, i have one that works locally
<xnox>    will upload it for rsalveti to cross-check. should resolve bug #1305315
<xnox> * Futurum:
<ubottu> bug 1305315 in gcc-i686-linux-android (Ubuntu) "Android container fails to start when built with the gcc-i686-linux-android toolchain" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1305315
<xnox>    - should we auto-upgrade people to grub2 from grub1?
<xnox>    - better upstart/init.d integration
<xnox> ..
<stgraber> Short week, was off on Friday and Monday for NorthSec 2014.
<stgraber> Containers:
<stgraber>  - Went through the rather massive lxc-devel backlog.
<stgraber>  - Getting ready for a 1.0.4 bugfix release (for both utopic and trusty)
<stgraber>  - netns related kernel debugging:
<stgraber>    - tc rules won't work in unprivileged containers (kernel patch sent to lkml)
<stgraber>    - tearing down a netns with filtering rules may panic the host (bug 1314274)
<ubottu> bug 1314274 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG in nf_nat_cleanup_conntrack" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1314274
<stgraber>    - systems with around 500 IPv6 routing tables, each with over 100 routes
<cjwatson> grub2 from grub1> we probably ought to have done this years ago but I think at this point it is likely a waste of effort
<stgraber>      overflow some table and lead to random failure to sendmsg/recvmsg.
<stgraber>  - Submitted talk proposal for LinuxCon NA 2014 about
<stgraber>    "Simulating the Internet with unprivileged LXC containers" based on what
<stgraber>    we've been doing for NorthSec 2014.
<stgraber>  - Been looking at getting a unity8-preview container to work.
<stgraber> Networking:
<stgraber>  - Looking into a few ifupdown/bridge-utils/vlan races
<stgraber> System-image:
<stgraber>  - Switched devel* over from trusty* to utopic*
<stgraber>  - Updated the customized channels to work for utopic
<stgraber> Other:
<cjwatson> (though it might, arguably, amount to a giant grub (legacy) merge)
<stgraber>  - Patch pilot
<stgraber>  - Some SRU reviews
<stgraber>  - Started poking at my merges
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> I'll be at the Cloud sprint next week, then mostly off the two weeks after that
<stgraber> (only working on the 16th, 19th and 20th) and I'll see you all in Malta!
<stgraber> (DONE)
<cjwatson> stgraber: Doesn't a unity8-preview container basically mean that you can't operate on the host (e.g. do sysadmin like upgrading the kernel) from your session?
<cjwatson> I had been working on the belief that that strategy wasn't terribly viable because of that
<xnox> cjwatson: i thought something simple like make a transitional package (grub-common?) that depends on grub-pc, and leave it at that. Such that people at-least get the "upgrade to grub2" prompts.
<cjwatson> xnox: well that's basically what the merge would do (definitely not grub-common though!)
<xnox> cjwatson: =)
<slangasek> cjwatson: grub2 from grub1 a waste of effort> we continue to have grub1 in main, and continue to receive bug reports about it (mostly misdirected, but still).  How can we sunset it so we're not carrying it into eternity?
<cjwatson> xnox: if you want to tackle the gigantic merge, then I don't mind
<stgraber> cjwatson: well, the current scope is a simple unity8 session, only /home would be shared and we woudln't attempt to keep packages in sync. So indeed not terribly viable as a real work environment but seems to cover the limited cases people appear to care about at this time.
<xnox> 0.97-29ubuntu66 with 0.97-67 -> the version mismatch does look gigantic =)
<cjwatson> I think we could at least get grub out of main this cycle; it's mostly there so that it can be selected via preseeding; but it would be worth checking whether it's still needed for xen (and I should go and chase up the final packaging bits of pv-grub2, which need some protocol definitions written up and handed to the xen folks)
<cjwatson> stgraber: mm, I just thought that we'd get more real testing if people could actually (in theory) use it all the time rather than having to switch back in order to do anything non-trivial
<cjwatson> which I realise probably isn't possible yet but surely the target is to make it be possible
 * xnox personally would want container-like thing
<stgraber> cjwatson: I'd expect those users to simply use utopic then
<xnox> when i flip the screen on my laptop into tablet mode, i would just want the container to launch. When i flip back, i'd just get back to unity7 session.
<cjwatson> stgraber: I guess
<cjwatson> well, if you think that would actually meet realistic requirements, then it would certainly get certain parties off our collective backs :)
<xnox> cjwatson: i believe above strategy is what's needed for trusty based convertable devices for example.
<stgraber> cjwatson: well, I think it can meet asac's requirements as he presented them to me the other day (those may have changed entirely in between but nobody spoke to me since :)), assuming I can get the damn thing to work :)
 * slangasek grins
<xnox> =)))))
<cjwatson> yeah, I meant "and users would want to use it" as well
<cjwatson> but I guess we'll see
<slangasek> well, we know it's much less functional
<slangasek> the fact that we're able to deliver any functionality on trusty at all is going to be a win, IMHO
<slangasek> any other questions re: status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] targeted bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: targeted bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<slangasek> I don't imagine we want to go through all of these today
<slangasek> so this is just a light nag, we still have a lot of unassigned bugs there and the overall list doesn't look any shorter than last week... :)
<slangasek> please make some time to take a bug or two off of this list
<slangasek> (removal from the list by nominating it for removal from the list instead of fixing is allowed :)
<slangasek> please? :)
<cjwatson> I'll sort out a couple today/tomorrow
<bdmurray> okay
 * barry nods
<slangasek> great, thanks
<slangasek> bdmurray: are there any other bugs we should have our eye on right now?
<bdmurray> slangasek: not that I haven't pinged people about
<slangasek> fair enough :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Malta
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Malta
 * jodh sobs
<bdmurray> slangasek: some of the bugs in that list have been 'fix committed', they just need verification
<slangasek> so if there are any topics that you want to discuss within the team or with other teams at the end of the month, please bring them to me this week / next week
<slangasek> there's a google doc for gathering topics, so just let me know what you need added there: https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/1zWQBVjJLBOwfXQWibvw5H64EGn3ZKpU5XkTbx2zkUvI/edit
<slangasek> jodh: maybe somebody can bring you back some maltaed milk balls
 * barry wants a falcon
<jodh> slangasek: too kind, please don't deprive yourselves!
<stgraber> slangasek: systemd-shim work with pitti, systemd + cgmanager work with pitti, system-image 2015 key generation (the relevant people should bring their usb keys)
<slangasek> ah, fwiw, if I hadn't mentioned this, neither jodh nor barry will be joining us on the island; barry remote due to a pre-existing conflict, and jodh apparently didn't use his crystal ball before booking vacation
<slangasek> so :)
<slangasek> stgraber: can you drop those to me in email please?
<stgraber> slangasek: sure
<barry> 3am is a good time to work
<slangasek> so consequently, if there are things in malta that you need jodh's input on, get it before you go; and for barry, call it out specifically so we schedule against his availability please
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> Is anybody familiar with win32-loader?
<xnox> jodh: barry: =( balls
<bdmurray> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Loader
<cjwatson> Only very tangentially; it's in the same kind of general space as wubi
<jodh> xnox: yeah, maybe the next meet-up can avoid school holidays :)
<bdmurray> I was wondering if it might be worth looking at as a replacement for wubi.
<xnox> slangasek: can i get msdn access? to poke os-prober at detecting various operating systems available with msdn subscription?
<xnox> slangasek: or who should i talk to? (i heard rumour has it, there is some msdn subscription available)
<slangasek> xnox: the answer should be "yes", but I don't know who owns our MSDN access currently; possibilities are ev, elmo, pgraner - could you email them and cc: me, to try to figure out who has it?
<xnox> slangasek: ack.
<cjwatson> Certainly worth a look if somebody's enthusiastic: problems I anticipate include (a) would need to get mingw-w64 into main so that we can build some of win32-loader's build-dependencies which have historically been disabled in Ubuntu to avoid the MIR; (b) given that it is only rather lightly maintained in Debian right now, we'd need to think about how much effort it would be to maintain so that we don't just end up back in the same ...
<cjwatson> ... boat that we've been in with wubi
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  1 15:43:06 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-05-01-15.04.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, guys :)
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<xnox> ta!
<stgraber> thanks!
<rsalveti> xnox: let me know once you get packages available somewhere so I can try it :-)
<rsalveti> we could indeed try to force it in the android side, but got another weird broken behavior that I'm still investigating
<xnox> rsalveti: yeah, working on getting them available.
<rsalveti> awesome, thanks so much
<xnox> rsalveti: at the moment the toolchain builds fine on my local machine, hits ICE in i386 sbuild, missing dependencies in amd64 sbuild =)
<rsalveti> alright :-)
<cjohnston> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, and chilicuil. Meeting time.
<PabloRubianes> here o/
<chilicuil> \o/
<s-fox> Here
<IdleOne> o/
<cjohnston> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  1 22:00:19 2014 UTC.  The chair is cjohnston. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<cjohnston> #voters chilicuil s-fox PabloRubianes IdleOne cjohnston
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne PabloRubianes chilicuil cjohnston s-fox
<cjohnston> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board meeting for 1 May, 2014. The wiki page for the Review Boards are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<cjohnston> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<cjohnston> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<cjohnston> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<cjohnston> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<cjohnston> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively).
<cjohnston> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<cjohnston> dakira, please tell us about yourself
<dakira> hi. I'm a computer science student from Hamburg, Germany. I entered the Ubuntu community around the time 5.04 was released (mostly the German community at that time). Currently I'm modding /r/ubuntu on reddit.
<dakira> I try to get that community lined up with the rest of the Ubuntu community (especially regarding the CoD).
<IdleOne> Call of Duty!
<dakira> he ;)
<IdleOne> dakira: I know the ubuntu-de community is fairly active. Did you ask any of them for testimonials?
<dakira> IdleOne: no.. I didn't mainly because I'm currently mostly active on reddit (where nhaines suggested I should apply for membership). I wouldn't call myself "active" on launchpad, but I've been getting into packaging for some time now and had my first two "successes" for 14.04 (getting libimobiledevice up to date and fixing a bug in totem before release).
<IdleOne> ok, thank you.
<dakira> IdleOne: nhaines also gave me a testimonial for my work on reddit.
<dakira> IdleOne: err.. I meant CoC (Code of Conduct).. ;)
<IdleOne> yes I know :)
<cjohnston> #vote dakira for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: dakira for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<chilicuil> +0
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +0 received from chilicuil
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<s-fox> +0 more testimonials would be needed for my support
<meetingology> +0 more testimonials would be needed for my support received from s-fox
<cjohnston> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: dakira for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cjohnston> dakira: at this time, unfortunatly, you do not have enough votes for membership. Please keep up the good work and try to get some more support from people and come back and apply again.
<IdleOne> wait a moment please
<dakira> cjohnston: all right ;) thanks
<IdleOne> nevermind.
<cjohnston> ratman: your up next. please tell us about yourself
<ratman> hi
<ratman> I'm Alejandro Esperon, mi wiki es https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ratman/EN. My English is pretty bad so I hope you pardon me. If you took a little time is that I am translating.
<IdleOne> dakira: please come back in 2-3 months with a few more testimonials
<ratman> I live in montevideo uruguay.The wiki contains more information about myself, I am using linux since 2001 about through various distributions of the time, and I use ubuntu since 2006, approximately
<ratman> Although I have participated in the events from which the group organised, since 2012 and I will be part of the Council LoCo Team Uruguay.
<ratman> My major contribution in the group I think they have been on the side of the organization, attention ubuntu booth, and the photographic record thereof. While I have also participated in providing some workshops on the use and customization of ubuntu, Also realize installations on computers at events so when the occasion presents me to help someone
<dakira> IdleOne: yeah, no worries. I didn't know I needed more than one. I'm pretty sure mhall and others would have written one, if I had asked them.
<cjohnston> #vote ratman for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: ratman for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<s-fox> dakira:  maybe you could ask them and reapply? :)
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<chilicuil> +1, hope to see you in the next ubuconla ;)
<meetingology> +1, hope to see you in the next ubuconla ;) received from chilicuil
<cjohnston> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: ratman for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cjohnston> Congrats ratman!
<PabloRubianes> Vamo arriba! ratman!
<ratman> very thank
<IdleOne> Congrats ratman :)
<s-fox> Congratulations
<ratman> :)
<chilicuil> welcome abroad
<ratman> gracias
<cjohnston> moving on... jsjgruber your up.. please introduce yourself
<jsjgruber> I'm an old-time computer software guy--dangerous with either a screwdriver or hammer.
<jsjgruber> My launchpad, askubuntu, and irc id's are jsjgruber. My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnSGruber.
<jsjgruber> I like to diagnose and often patch software bugs (since 2008), and help people out.
<jsjgruber> I've long been a Michigan LOCO member, (though I live in Ohio), I have earned +7000 reputation points on AskUbuntu (I'm less active there now than I was a couple years ago but I still get on occasionally, particularly to follow up on questions I'm asked on old answers and see if there are any new questions I can help with) I've been maintaining Lernid since 2011 and I think I've made it more robust. I've also added features
<jsjgruber> to make it more useful.
<PabloRubianes> jsjgruber, hi, how is your involvement with your LoCo?
<jsjgruber> I've attended jams, I presented Lernid to a local use group, MUG, during a LOCO sponsored program. Many of the MUG members use Ubuntu.
<jsjgruber> That was in 2011
<PabloRubianes> ok jsjgruber
<cjohnston> #vote jsjgruber for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: jsjgruber for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<chilicuil> +1, I thank you for your work with lernid, with the upcoming google hangouts it seems it's been used less officially, but I it's been clearly a key software during the ubuntu classroom and ubuntu developer weeks
<meetingology> +1, I thank you for your work with lernid, with the upcoming google hangouts it seems it's been used less officially, but I it's been clearly a key software during the ubuntu classroom and ubuntu developer weeks received from chilicuil
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<cjohnston> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: jsjgruber for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<IdleOne> Congrats jsjgruber
<s-fox> Congratulations
<cjohnston> congrats jsjgruber
<chilicuil> welcome jsjgruber =)
<jsjgruber> Thanks everyone.
<jose> congratulations, jsjgruber! keep up the good work!
<PabloRubianes> congrats jsjgruber
<cjohnston> With that, we are going to end the meeting. :-) Thanks everyone for participating
<cjohnston> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  1 22:29:40 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-05-01-22.00.moin.txt
<s-fox> Thank you all for coming
<cjohnston> dakira: it's not that more than one testimonial is required, or always needed, but most of your work being done on reddit, it is hard for us to look at it and see what you have done, so when we aren't easily able to look and see what you have done, having more testimonials helps us..
<s-fox> Thank you cjohnston for chairing
<cjohnston> np
<cjohnston> dakira: please do try to get some more support from people and come back in a couple of months and visit us again.
<dakira> cjohnston: I understand.
<PabloRubianes> thanks cjohnston
<dakira> cjohnston: see you in a couple of month.. and maybe on Reddit ;-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-05-04
<elfy> cariboo907 coffeecat ping
<cariboo907> I'm here
<coffeecat> o/
<elfy> so am I :)
<elfy> no-one else around - good job we're busy
<elfy> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun May  4 20:01:43 2014 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<elfy> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<elfy> apologies from s-fox - who's agreed to take whatever task for next month
<elfy> #topic Review Ubuntu Forum Membership Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review Ubuntu Forum Membership Applications
<elfy> so we've just got the one - which has been voted on in the staff area on the forum
<cariboo907> It looks like we got a pretty firm not sure for OrangeCrate
<elfy> orangecrate
<elfy> yep - so someone needs to deal with that discussion
<elfy> #action s.fox to PM Orangecrate re their membership application
<meetingology> ACTION: s.fox to PM Orangecrate re their membership application
<elfy> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<elfy> anyone got anything for that?
<Iowan> Remind me what AOB is
<cariboo907> what was AOB again
<elfy> any other business :)
<cariboo907> :( makes sense
<elfy> I've nothing
<Iowan> I have no AOB that i can remember...
<cariboo907> I've got nothing
<elfy> coffeecat - anything from you?
<coffeecat> nothing here
<elfy> #topic Keep ForumCouncil/TeamReport updated.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Keep ForumCouncil/TeamReport updated.
<cariboo907> I nominate s.fox :)
<Iowan> 2nd
<elfy> lol - I already got s.fox doing something :)
<elfy> I've not done it for some time - I'll take that this month
<elfy> #action elfy to produce monthly team report
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to produce monthly team report
<cariboo907> ninja's
<cariboo907> ninja'd
<elfy> #topic Set Next Meeting Date
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Set Next Meeting Date
<cariboo907> First Sunday in June?
<elfy> and that's done too - they're done for months - same time same place - first sundays of the month
<elfy> cariboo907: yep
<Iowan> Thanks for that!
<elfy> so - all done
<elfy> unless there is anyone out there lurking with a question?
<elfy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun May  4 20:11:06 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-05-04-20.01.moin.txt
<elfy> thanks cariboo907 coffeecat Iowan
<coffeecat> thanks elfy
<cariboo907> thanks elfy
<Iowan> And thank you, elfy, for dilling the chair.
<Iowan> Filling!
<elfy> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-04-27
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Apr 27 16:33:24 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Thanks to Rhonda D'Vine (rhonda) for help on security updates for the community supported wesnoth-1.10 last week. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<tyhicks> (LP: #1445688)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1445688 in wesnoth-1.10 (Ubuntu Utopic) "private file disclosure issue (CVE-2015-0844)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1445688
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand is busy atm so we'll skip him for now
<tyhicks> he can jump in if he frees up
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: go ahead
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> Im currently sponsoring ffmpeg
<mdeslaur> tomorrow I have patch piloting duties
<mdeslaur> I just published a few updates, and I have a couple more to test
<mdeslaur> and I completely forgot about the openssl precise update that I started, which I'll look into again
<mdeslaur> that's about it form me, sbeattie?
<essembe> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> essembe: INTRUDER!
<tyhicks> who's this guy
<essembe> oh bah
<sarnold> he looks shifty
<sbeattie> I'm on bug triage this week
<sbeattie> I'm finishing up preparing the trusty apparmor SRU, I just have a couple of snags I hit to smooth out.
<sbeattie> And then I'll switch to focusing on the gcc-pie work
<sbeattie> I need to look at tyhicks patchset to support systemd, so we can land that work when W opens
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: back to your openssl precise update - is that to enable tlsv1.2 by default for clients?
<tyhicks> I'm on CVE triage this week
<tyhicks> I have a short week and will be off Thursday and Friday
<tyhicks> I need to circle back to a number of things that were ignored during the ramp up to the Vivid release
<tyhicks> and I want to finish the kernel patches for AppArmor kernel keyring mediation
<tyhicks> it would be nice if I could get those patches out for review before Thursday but I'm not sure
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: yes, that's it
<tyhicks> thanks
<jjohansen> I have a short week this week, I will be off Friday
<jjohansen> I have a couple backported CVE kernel fixes to look at and discuss with the kernel team
<jjohansen> I also have a couple more apparmor patches to get out to the kernel team, so we can get the fixes into the next round of kernels
<jjohansen> bug #1430546
<ubottu> bug 1430546 in linux (Ubuntu) "apparmor kernel BUG kills firefox" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1430546
<jjohansen> being one of them (sorry I seem to have lost my browser tabs)
<tyhicks> no problem
<jjohansen> and then its back to the apparmor upstream cleanup. I plan to finish up with the domain transition cleanup/fixes this week (not that I didn't plan on finishing that bit last week :/)
<jjohansen> I think that is it from me sarnold you're up
<tyhicks> jjohansen: I noticed that a new AA kernel bug came in (LP: #1448912)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1448912 in AppArmor "BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1448912
<jjohansen> tyhicks: oh I hadn't noticed that one, yet. I'll poke at that one too, this week
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead :)
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week; I will be working more on openstack updates, and getting the hang of how the different openstack services work, etc.
<mdeslaur> sarnold: FYI, I think the updates in the ppa are now out of date, more CVEs came out in the meantime
<sarnold> I think I'll poke at the horizon service this week, and try to reproduce one of the issues on serverstack and try to find out if th e issue affects precise or not, and I'd love love love to get an update out the door, but .. thursdays always come so quickly
<sarnold> mdeslaur: yes, I think most of those updates are now stale :(
<tyhicks> getting an update out this week would be great since you're in the happy place
<tyhicks> it is always a little more difficult on cve triage weeks
<sarnold> yes
<sarnold> so very much yes :)
<tyhicks> sarnold: do you plan on updating the packages with the new fixes?
<sarnold> tyhicks: I can give it  ashot, I haven't actually looked into the details of any of the fixed packages in the ppa, excepting the one horizon issue
<sarnold> .. nor the details of the subsequently discovered CVEs
<tyhicks> sarnold: ok, we'll discuss it more in a little bit
<sarnold> I may also do some apparmor patch reviews for distraction along the way
<sarnold> that's me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> This week, I need to get chromium out
<chrisccoulson> I'll also be working through code reviews (my queue is quite large now)
<chrisccoulson> And I'm currently looking at a browser crash on the phone
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, it's business as usual (hopefully)
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mednafen.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/prewikka.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/rt-authen-externalauth.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/forked-daapd.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mc.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Apr 27 16:58:17 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-04-27-16.33.moin.txt
<sbeattie> tych0: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> double bah.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sbeattie> tych0: sorry.
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks
<micahg> anyone here to discuss anything at the DMB meeting, if not, we'l reconvene in two weeks since there's nothing on the agenda for today
<bdmurray> micahg: have the previous action items been taken care of?
<micahg> well, the first one is still out there, the second is done, I just need to send a follow-up message, but my E-Mail client wasn't being helpful before the meeting, I'll send that today
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-04-30
<sil2100> o/
<infinity> In lieu of a meeting, which our manager and tech lead both seem to not be able to attend, barry has proposed we party.
<infinity> o/
<infinity> \o/
<infinity> \o
<infinity> Untz, untz, untz.
<barry> o/
<barry> \o
<barry> o\
<sil2100> \o
<sil2100> o/
<barry> /o
<sil2100>  /o\
<barry> irc macarena fail
<sil2100> ~.o.~
<infinity> And I believe that concludes our party meeting.
<sil2100> AOB?
 * slangasek waves
<bdmurray> I like to party, but I'd appreciate talking about a bug or two.
<infinity> Oh, look, it's vorlon.
<slangasek> infinity: vincent?
<slangasek> bdmurray: which bugs?
<bdmurray> bug 1445239 - is it more likely to be an apt or mirror issue?
<ubottu> bug 1445239 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt's lists/partial fills disk" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1445239
<infinity> bdmurray: antonb had seen a similar bug, and was working out how to reproduce it.
<bdmurray> infinity: okay
<bdmurray> then there is bug 1449626 brought up by the cert team
<ubottu> bug 1449626 in libxslt (Ubuntu) " /usr/lib/powerpc64le-linux-gnu/libxslt.so.1: invalid ELF header" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1449626
<infinity> bdmurray: I've pointed him at it to see if it's the same or another exciting bug.
<doko> barry, bdmurray: before you party, any update on pip/requests?
<bdmurray> doko: I haven't overridden the regressions yet
<doko> bdmurray, where did you run this pip command?
<doko> in a virtualenv, or on the system itself?
<bdmurray> doko: and I was not testing in a virtual env. In a trusty chroot on the system itself.
<doko> bdmurray, so can you verify, that pip removed files installed by dpkg?
<bdmurray> doko: I'll have to try again but I'm pretty sure it didn't remove files installed by dpkg. So I'm guessing it changed the environment somehow.
<slangasek> bdmurray: just followed up on bug #1449626, which is not reproducible on porter-ppc64el
<ubottu> bug 1449626 in libxslt (Ubuntu) " /usr/lib/powerpc64le-linux-gnu/libxslt.so.1: invalid ELF header" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1449626
<doko> bdmurray, sure, but your log says so
<slangasek> looks like a corrupted install, not a bug in libxslt
<bdmurray> slangasek: thanks, I noticed we aren't subscribed to that package. Should we be?
<slangasek> bdmurray: appears to be owned by the desktop team
<bdmurray> doko: trusty-amd64)root@impulse:/home/bdmurray# debsums python-requests
<bdmurray> debsums: missing file /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests-2.2.1.egg-info (from python-requests package)
<bdmurray> doko: does that explain things?
<barry> doko, bdmurray if i can make a little more progress on this system-image stuff, i'll dig in more on pip/requests later today
<doko> bdmurray, hmm, looks like it's overwriting system stuff ... barry assured me that this would never happen :-/
<barry> it definitely shouldn't
<bdmurray> For what its worth it happens w/o the packages from -proposed too
<barry> if it does, it's a bug <wink>
<doko> and a very severe one ...
<bdmurray> Given that this isn't a new issue should we override the regressions?
<bdmurray> doko / barry: ?
<barry> bdmurray: i'm not sure right now
<doko> bdmurray, from my point of view, yes, as said in my email
<doko> bdmurray, what does ls -ld /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests* say?
<bdmurray> doko: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/10953514/
<doko> bdmurray, hmm, only the egg-info missing. where is the new one installed, in /usr/local?
<bdmurray> doko: /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests-2.6.2.dist-info
<doko> ahh
<barry> bdmurray, doko is the problem that `pip install httpie` installs requests in ~/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages and that's earlier on the sys.path than /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages ?
<doko> I'm curious why requests gets installed in /usr/local and httpie in ~/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages
<barry> doko: requests doesn't get installed in /usr/local for me
<bdmurray> barry: it also seems to have removed requests-2.2.1.egg-info
<barry> only ~/.local
<barry> bdmurray: not for me, on vivid
<barry> in a vivid chroot
<barry> requests-2.4.3.egg-info is still in /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
<barry> this is a clean vivid chroot, after `apt-get install python-pip` then `pip install httpie`
<bdmurray> I'm using a trusty chroot
<barry> it still fails on vivid, but let me try trusty
<barry> heh, chroots don't overlay ~/.local ;)
<barry> bdmurray: are you using `pip install --user httpie`?
<barry> bdmurray: or sudo?
<bdmurray> barry: I was root so just pip install httpie
<barry> bdmurray: okay, sec
<barry> bdmurray: okay, yes it deleted the egg-info file for me in /usr/lib
<barry> but i still think the problem is that /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages is on sys.path before /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
<barry> and `sudo pip install httpie` installs a newer requests that doesn't play nice with pip
<doko> barry, the path order for this is always to have /usr/local before /usr. echo $PATH
<barry> doko: for pip's own imports, it can't do that
<barry> doko, bdmurray replied in email
<barry> doko, bdmurray i'm off to get some lunch.  i know what the problem is.  i need to experiment and think about the right solution.  let's take it back to email
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-05-03
<howefield> #startmeeting Ubuntu Forum Council Meeting - 03rd May 2015
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun May  3 18:01:21 2015 UTC.  The chair is howefield. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Forum Council Meeting - 03rd May 2015 | Current topic:
<howefield> #chair elfy slickymaster cariboo907 bapoumba
<meetingology> Current chairs: bapoumba cariboo907 elfy howefield slickymaster
<howefield> evening all and thanks for coming to the party :)
<slickymaster> o/
<bapoumba> thanks howefield
<howefield> here's to a good one.
<cariboo907> o/
<howefield> nothing of note on the agenda so will we start with a goodbye and a hello?
<bapoumba> works for me :)
<slickymaster> also for me
<howefield> We 7 rather quickly became 6 again, so best wishes to s.fox and thanks for all the time and effort she put in to bettering the forums over the years.
<bapoumba> +1
<slickymaster> +1
<howefield> and a huge welcome to slickymaster, thanks for joining the Forum Council slickymaster. :)
<cariboo907> +1
<elfy> yep
<elfy> both :)
 * slickymaster bows anf thanks the council
<slickymaster> * and
<bapoumba> happy to have you on the FC slickymaster :)
<howefield> now if you could hand out the doughnuts...
<slickymaster> it's an honour to be among you
<elfy> for the moment ...
<howefield> :)
<elfy> :p
<slickymaster> lol, forgot those :P
<cariboo907> yesm just wait :)
<cariboo907> yes
<slickymaster> I'll make sure to bring them next meeting
<cariboo907> I like the chocolate ones :)
<bapoumba> well, I'll not wait for next meeting slickymaster :)
<elfy> I just like the free ones
 * slickymaster will open a thread so each of the members can state their preferences, doughnuts wise
<elfy> preferably not radish flavour - thanks :)
<bapoumba> I'll have pancakes, thanks
<slickymaster> those will be mine
<howefield> custard and fudge for me :)
<howefield> so, no items on the agenda bar the fixed/repeating unless anyone wants to bring something up ?
<slickymaster> damn am I the only one who don't eat sweets?
<howefield> another good reason slickymaster for you to provide them... ;p
<slickymaster> I wanted to bring something howefield
<bapoumba> has everyone checked the monthly report ?
<elfy> #info we've done another call for new Moderation Team via the nomination method
<elfy> let's hope it actually works this time - would rather not go back to the old method
<howefield> thanks for that reminder elfy
<howefield> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2276527
<elfy> nothing else from me in AOB
<slickymaster> #info the FC github wireless repository is now live
<howefield> woot!
<slickymaster> and there's something we need to decide regarding that
<slickymaster> which is http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2275349&p=13277783&viewfull=1#post13277783
<cariboo907> what's AOB again? :)
<elfy> for the irc log readers and anyone who can't read that thread - it is in regard to access to the github
<elfy> cariboo907: lol
<slickymaster> so the question is will we provide Wild Man access to the master branch as a script maintainer /that he is)
<slickymaster> that would mean providing him the account username and password
<bapoumba> how often is the script updated ?
<slickymaster> not very often, I think
<bapoumba> so FC validating a push may work for them
<slickymaster> the other possibility is for him to make a push request and one of us approve it and merge to the master branch
<howefield> can the access be done by the FC (via wildman) slickymaster ?
<slickymaster> yes bapoumba
<slickymaster> not sure I understood howefield
<howefield> +1 "for the other possibility is for him to make a push request and one of us approve it and merge to the master branch"
<slickymaster> I'm +1 on that option also
<bapoumba> +1
<elfy> +1
<cariboo907> +1
<bapoumba> he should not see that negatively
<elfy> I doubt he would
<bapoumba> that is just the way the git works from whant I've seen
<bapoumba> *what
<slickymaster> yes, I agree elfy, it doesn't seem to be that type of +person
<slickymaster> ok, I'll post our decison in the thread
<bapoumba> thanks slickymaster
<howefield> so, for the minutes then,.. "FC to approve and merge amendments to wildmans script to the master branch". that ok ?
<elfy> howefield: you can use #info
<bapoumba> +1
<slickymaster> yeaps
<cariboo907> works for me
<howefield> #agreed FC to approve and merge amendments to wildmans script to the master branch
<slickymaster> and I can deal with those whenever necessary guys
<elfy> and that too howefield :)
<slickymaster> I mean if no one wants to step in and do it, that is
<elfy> no - that's fine with me - you carry on :)
<howefield> #action slickymaster to post in relevant thread and approve/merge amendments to wildmans script to the master branch.
<meetingology> ACTION: slickymaster to post in relevant thread and approve/merge amendments to wildmans script to the master branch.
<slickymaster> :P elfy
<howefield> thanks slickymaster :)
<slickymaster> sure, np
<bapoumba> fine with me slickymaster :)
<howefield> #subtopic Any Other Business
<howefield> just for cariboo907 :)
<cariboo907> gee thanks :)
<howefield> I'd like to record thanks to the writers of the 3 blog posts since last meeting, many thanks to the writers and all involved.
<howefield> Ubuntu Membership https://ubuntuforumsorg.wordpress.com/2015/03/29/ubuntu-membership/
<howefield> Forum Council Addition https://ubuntuforumsorg.wordpress.com/2015/04/01/forum-council-addition/
<howefield> and Ubuntu phone and tablet forum support https://ubuntuforumsorg.wordpress.com/2015/04/20/ubuntu-phone-and-tablet-support-on-the-forum/
<bapoumba> +1 howefield
<slickymaster> thanks elfy and bapoumba
<howefield> nice to see us on the planet, but it takes time and effort, so a good job :)
<bapoumba> well, thanks elfy & slickymaster :)
<elfy> hhe
<slickymaster> hmmm, I was convinced that you wrote the https://ubuntuforumsorg.wordpress.com/2015/03/29/ubuntu-membership/ one bapoumba
<elfy> #info QIII joined the Supermoderator team, bringing that back up to 3
<howefield> that process seems to be working nicely.
<elfy> yep
<slickymaster> QIII is great at it
<slickymaster> didn't have any problems dealing with adminCP
<bapoumba> #info s.fox updated the mobile theme before leaving the FC
<howefield> thanks bapoumba : I'll need to try that out :)
<bapoumba> img are still blue :)
<cariboo907> actually I preferred the default version
<howefield> so does that only leave Review Ubuntu Forum Membership Applications to discuss
<howefield> sorry, thought we were done there.
<slickymaster> I think so howefield
<bapoumba> Well, img would need to be all created ..
<howefield> moving on, we have one application on the go for now..
<howefield> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2275859
<bapoumba> +1 from me
<howefield> are we in a position to vote?
<howefield> hang on bapoumba , let me get the commnads lined up ;p
<bapoumba> sorry howefield :)
<howefield> #vote Approve sammiev for Ubuntu Forums Member
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve sammiev for Ubuntu Forums Member
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<bapoumba> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bapoumba
<cariboo907> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo907
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<howefield> #voters elfy slickymaster cariboo907 bapoumba howefield
<meetingology> Current voters: bapoumba cariboo907 elfy howefield slickymaster
<slickymaster> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slickymaster
<howefield> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from howefield
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<slickymaster> that would +2 from elfy :P
<slickymaster> a previous one and now this one
<howefield> coffeecat by proxy ;p
<elfy> that'll be coffeecat's thread +1 then :)
<slickymaster> lol
<elfy> if it counts twice ...
<howefield> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve sammiev for Ubuntu Forums Member
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elfy> it didn't :D
<howefield> well done and congratulations sammiev :)
<bapoumba> :)
<howefield> even if you don't know it yet.
<slickymaster> yeaps, kudos sammiev
<elfy> yep - who's going to do the stuffs - I vote slickymaster :)
<slickymaster> lololo
<howefield> it's a tradition so I'll +1 that elfy :)
<slickymaster> what are the stuffs exactly elfy?
<howefield> team report I guess...
<elfy> ooh - that's all secret :p
<slickymaster> no love howefield :(
<elfy> howefield: I was talking about sammiev Membership stuff :)
<elfy> I've started the May team report and included on the Current already :)
<slickymaster> that was my impression also elfy
<cariboo907> but slickymaster can do the report too :)
<howefield> well, thanks on both counts :)
<howefield> I think it is a good learning experience :)
<slickymaster> ok, I'll do both
<slickymaster> after dinner
<bapoumba> editing the report
<elfy> mmm - I did the reports :D
<slickymaster> which still has to be made
<slickymaster> \o/ elfy
<howefield> So, I guess we are done ? any more for any more before we close ?
<slickymaster> so, no reports for slickymaster
<elfy> not from me howefield
<slickymaster> neither from me howefield
<bapoumba> not here either
<cariboo907> I've got nothing here
<howefield> thanks everyone, I'll finish the meeting then.
<howefield> same place 5th July, all being well for the next one :)
<elfy> ok
<elfy> who's going to set up fridge?
<elfy> guess who's got my vote
<howefield> it's a learning experience... lol
<slickymaster> lol, you're way to good for me guys
<howefield> my head says slickymaster but my heart says me :)
<elfy> ha ha ha
<slickymaster> go with your heart howefield
<elfy> slickymaster escapes
<howefield> hahaha
<howefield> ok, done.
<slickymaster> lol
<howefield> thanks everyone.
<howefield> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun May  3 18:38:12 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-05-03-18.01.moin.txt
<slickymaster> thanks howefield
<bapoumba> See you on the 5th July :)
<elfy> thanks howefield
<bapoumba> thanks howefield
<cariboo907> thanks howefield
<DalekSec> Thanks, howefield.
<howefield> thank you DalekSec :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-05-02
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon May  2 16:31:50 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> sorry
<jdstrand> this week I plan to be focusing on snappy
<jdstrand> I have some more interface policy additions
<jdstrand> more working with glib/gtk/gnome applications
<jdstrand> various PRs on new interfaces to review
<jdstrand> I hope to get snappy-debug working again in some manner (not the final snappy development implementation though)
<jdstrand> if I have time I'll look at the x32 socketcall issue
<jdstrand> I'll be attending UOS for some snappy stuff
<jdstrand> and have 3 embargoed issues
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm about to publish some updates
<mdeslaur> and I'm working on an embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> and I'll be going down the list after that
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week
<sbeattie> I also am looking at pie build failures, and trying to monitor for additional failures.
<sbeattie> I have libc and openjdk [78] updates to finish testing this week.
<sbeattie> That plus the usual kernel cve monitoring will likely consume my week.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: over to you
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I'll attend some UOS sessions
<tyhicks> I'll be preparing for the snappy sprint next week
<tyhicks> there are a few loose ends I need to tie up this week (some patch re-reviews, send fixes for bug #1465724 to upstream, etc.)
<ubottu> bug 1465724 in Snappy "net_admin apparmor denial when using Go" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1465724
<tyhicks> I have an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> I also missed a sponsoring duty last week (bug #1573761) that I'll do today
<ubottu> bug 1573761 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu) "USN-2953-1: MySQL vulnerabilities partially applies to MariaDB too" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1573761
<tyhicks> sarnold: see that last one ^
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<sarnold> oh cool, thanks tyhicks :)
<tyhicks> jj is out
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> i'm on community this week
<sarnold> I owe responses to xml-security-c upstream
<sarnold> i've got a few loose-ends left over from my network fiddling last week
<sarnold> and then if there's a light community load this week, return to the MIRs that weren't finished in time for xenial.
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson is on holiday, so I think it's back to tyhicks
<tyhicks> sarnold: thanks - I think it is important to get back to the MIR list before new ones start rolling in
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xpdf.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-uuid.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/netty.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libparallel-forkmanager-perl.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/polipo.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon May  2 16:49:06 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-05-02-16.31.moin.txt
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-05-05
<aldomann_> Anyone there?
<Kilos> yes aldomann_
<Kilos> still one and a half hours to go
<aldomann_> I though two sessions were hosted today
<Kilos> yes
<Kilos> we had one on #ubuntu-uos-overflow for peeps interested in applying
<Kilos> you are schedule at 20.00 utc for your application
<Kilos> right?
<Kilos> aldomann_ Rosco2 you here
<Rosco2> Yep - here
<Kilos> well be with you in 7 mins guys
<Rosco2> no probs
<aldomann_> awesome
<elacheche_anis> Hey guys Rosco2 aldomann_
<ahoneybun> heyo
<aldomann_> hello
<Rosco2> Hi there
<Kilos> ahoneybun time
<ahoneybun> yep
 * ahoneybun finishes some pizza 
<Kilos> lol
<ahoneybun> #startmeeting 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  5 20:01:35 2016 UTC.  The chair is ahoneybun. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
 * elacheche_anis shares some Apple Soda with ahoneybun :)
<ahoneybun> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting!
<ahoneybun> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting.
<ahoneybun> If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<ahoneybun> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<ahoneybun> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<ahoneybun> #topic Alfredo HernÃ¡ndez
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Alfredo HernÃ¡ndez
<ahoneybun> your up aldomann_
<ahoneybun> :)
<Kilos> :D
<Kilos> aw should show one with teeth
<elacheche_anis> aldomann_: here? Maybe bad internet tonight :.
<elacheche_anis> :/
<Kilos> he is here
<aldomann_> yep, just writing a long paragaph :P
<Kilos> let him catch up
<elacheche_anis> OK, TYT then :)
<aldomann_> Hello, my name is Alfredo HernÃ¡ndez, I'm a studying physics and I've been involved in the Ubunut comunity for 7 years now (which is one third of my life, now that I think about it). My "real" involvement in open source projects started with elementary OS (I was heavily involved in the l10n process when they were just starting). Lately I've been an active member of the Ubuntu GNOME project, which is why I'm here
<aldomann_> here is my wiki page with a more detailed contribution history: Hello, my name is Alfredo HernÃ¡ndez, I'm a studying physics and I've been involved in the Ubunut comunity for 7 years now (man,
<aldomann_> what
<elacheche_anis> :D
<aldomann_> sorry :P https://wiki.ubuntu.com/aldomann
<ahoneybun> awesome aldomann_
<elacheche_anis> :)
<ahoneybun> lol
<Kilos> lol
<aldomann_> forgot I copied that
<Kilos> aldomann_ np
<Kilos> are you a member of a LoCo
<ahoneybun> link to your LP aldomann_ ?
<ahoneybun> that was my bad
<aldomann_> launchpad.net/~aldomann
<ahoneybun> thanks
<ahoneybun> Any questions for Alfredo? Any supporters here?
<aldomann_> technically yes, I'm a member ~ubuntu-es and ~ubuntu-uk, but I've never been really involved in their activities
<Kilos> aldomann_ are you a member of a LoCo
<Kilos> sorry
<Kilos> i ask because i am trying to remotivate locos
<elacheche_anis> No questions here.. aldomann_ you should try to get involved in the neirest loco.. It's good to meet and encourage people IRL
 * ahoneybun saw that email 
<ahoneybun> I work with mine
<Kilos> locos shouls support their members applying for membership
<ahoneybun> in fact we have a Ubuntu Hour this saturday
<ahoneybun> anywya
<aldomann_> well, I tried to join the Catalan team once
<ahoneybun> I like the logo for Ubuntu GNOME aldomann_
<ahoneybun> we have a few Ubuntu GNOME users in my loco
<aldomann_> and it was too much paperwork
<aldomann_> nice!
<Kilos> paperwork?
<ahoneybun> paper, work?
<Kilos> should be easy to join a loco
<elacheche_anis> aldomann_: We should talk about that "paperwork".. Maybe later.. There is too many LoCos issues that the boards may dig to know about them.. Anyway..
<aldomann_> yep, that's what I thought
<aldomann_> although it may have changed now
<ahoneybun> mm
<aldomann_> I've been in my personal crusade of converting everyone I know to linux, though :P
<elacheche_anis> Good aldomann_ :) That's the spirit :D
<aldomann_> which is terribly easy in the field of physics, Windows just sucks for it
<ahoneybun> #voters Kilos elacheche_anis toddy ahoneybun wxl cwayne popey hggdh
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: cwayne
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos ahoneybun cwayne elacheche_anis hggdh popey toddy wxl
<popey> +1
<popey> Keep up the good work on Ubuntu GNOME!
<elacheche_anis> +1 ahoneybun keep the good work :)
<wxl> um
<ahoneybun> for sure
<ahoneybun> >
<Kilos> +1 keep up the good work lad
<ahoneybun> ?
<wxl> we didn't start voting
<elacheche_anis> oops! Nope
<popey> oh
<popey> doh
<popey> silly me
<Kilos> oops
<popey> sorry :)
<elacheche_anis> ahoneybun: start the bot :D
<ahoneybun> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<popey> +1
<wxl> +1 keep up the good work!
<popey> what special lunacy do we need to do to the bot now!?
 * wxl scratches head
<Kilos> +1 keep up the good work lad
<ahoneybun> #vote for Alfredo membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for Alfredo membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<popey> there we go
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<elacheche_anis> +1 aldomann_  :):D
<meetingology> +1 aldomann_  :):D received from elacheche_anis
<wxl> +1 keep up the good work!
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work! received from wxl
<popey> (as if you didn't know)
<Kilos> sorry wxl forgot to ping you
<wxl> all good Kilos i was here
<ahoneybun> +1 awesome work on Ubuntu GNOME!
<meetingology> +1 awesome work on Ubuntu GNOME! received from ahoneybun
<Kilos> aldomann_ please try lurk here till i get to ask about the loco issues
<ahoneybun> everyone got their voice in?
<aldomann_> thanks everyone
<elacheche_anis> Congrats aldomann_
<aldomann_> yeah, np Kilos
<ahoneybun> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for Alfredo membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Kilos> ty
<wxl> congrats and welcome, finally, aldomann_
<ahoneybun> welcome on board aldomann_
<Kilos> welcome to the team aldomann_
<ahoneybun> Rosco2 around?
<Rosco2> I'm here
<ahoneybun> cool
<elacheche_anis> Hey Rosco2 :)
 * ahoneybun wonders if he can use his macro keys for this 
<popey>  ð
<Kilos> ahoneybun try it
<ahoneybun> later on
<ahoneybun> I can auto fill email and stuff
<ahoneybun> #topic  Ross Gammon
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Ross Gammon
 * popey added aldomann_ to ~ubuntumembers
<ahoneybun> thanks popey
<popey> np
<popey> congrats aldomann_ :)
<Kilos> ty popey
<aldomann_> thanks, popey
<ahoneybun> Ross Gammon please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<Rosco2> Hi - I am an Engineer living in Denmark
<Rosco2> I think I first started contribution to Ubuntu by joing the bug squad and triaging bugs
<ahoneybun> always need for that
<Rosco2> I am also a Debian Maintainer maintaining some packages myself and in teams
<Kilos> bug squad always crying for more help
<ahoneybun> sweet Rosco2
<Rosco2> Some time ago I joined Ubuntu Studio
<Rosco2> And now I have taken on the Test Team Lead role & helping releases go smooth
<Rosco2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RossGammon
<Rosco2> https://launchpad.net/~retail-0
<popey> hi Rosco2
<ahoneybun> thanks Rosco2 :)
<popey> Rosco2: what did you code Z80 on? Spectrum or Amstrad? :)
<Rosco2> Actually an Aussie bit of kit
<popey> ooh
<Rosco2> Called VZ80
<Rosco2> It was from a popular electronics store
 * ahoneybun links the pastebin with bot commands to a macro 
<popey> I will have to google that :)
<Kilos> Rosco2 are you a member of a loco
<Rosco2> It was a funny thing with keys that went beep as you typed
<Kilos> hehe
<ahoneybun> right
<popey> Like all 80s computers should!
<ahoneybun> Any questions for Ross Gammon? Any supporters here?
<ahoneybun> opps
<Rosco2> I am on the DK loco mailing list but not really active
<elacheche_anis> No questions :)
<popey> You have some nice testimonials there Rosco2
<Kilos> Rosco2 can you do us a favour
<Rosco2> Most DK stuff happens on the other side of country
<Kilos> try motivate your loco
<ahoneybun> #voters Kilos elacheche_anis toddy ahoneybun wxl cwayne popey hggdh
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos ahoneybun cwayne elacheche_anis hggdh popey toddy wxl
<ahoneybun> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<popey> I'd love to see some blog posts about the test cases, i think manual tests are something that many "normals" can really get involved in
<Kilos> your work is wonderful but we need help with motivating locos
<popey> I'd like to see more promotion of that
<ahoneybun> #vote for Ross Gammon Membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for Ross Gammon Membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Rosco2> Good ideas guys
<wxl>  agree with that!!!
<Kilos> +1 great work, keep it up
<meetingology> +1 great work, keep it up received from Kilos
<elacheche_anis> +1 Rosco2
<meetingology> +1 Rosco2 received from elacheche_anis
<popey> Also, interesting goal of being desktop agnostic!
<wxl> +1 keep up the good work!
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work! received from wxl
<popey> Looked at Ubuntu MATE? :)
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<ahoneybun> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ahoneybun
<popey> easy +1 from me, Rosco2, keep up the good work!
<ahoneybun> everyone got their voice in?
<Rosco2> MATE will be in the picture for sure
<Kilos> yip ahoneybun
<ahoneybun> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for Ross Gammon Membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<popey> \o/
<Kilos> welcome to the team Rosco2
<popey> congfratulations Rosco2
<ahoneybun> awesome stuff Rosco2
<Kilos> great work
<Rosco2> Thanks all
<elacheche_anis> Congrats Rosco2 :)
<wxl> conrgats!
 * popey adds Rosco2 to ~ubuntumembers
<Kilos> ty popey
<Rosco2> Kilos, I will make a point of joining the next loco IRC meeting :-)
<popey> Like well oiled machine :)
<ahoneybun> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  5 20:29:03 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-05-05-20.01.moin.txt
<popey> Nice work everyone!
<Kilos> cool ty Rosco2
<Kilos> feel free to lurk here as well
<Rosco2> Will do
<Kilos> thatnks board members
<Kilos> thanks
 * genii washes out the coffeepot and mugs, puts them away until next time
<Kilos> aw
<Kilos> sigh
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-05-02
<powersj> o/
<ahasenack> o/
 * powersj is happy to run the meeting again if need be, but doesn't look like many are here
<nacc> o/
<nacc> powersj: sorry, was running late
<powersj> cpaelzer: around?
<teward> *yawns*
<powersj> ok cpaelzer can owe me ;)
<powersj> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue May  2 16:04:59 2017 UTC.  The chair is powersj. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rharper> o/
<powersj> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<powersj> ACTION: rbasak, powersj, cpaelzer to draft mysql triage response page like nginx has (carried over)
<powersj> I assume still carry over?
<rbasak> Still outstanding :-/
<powersj> I saw some new bugs, but nothing I wanted to add
<powersj> ok
<teward> Unrelated: I'm glad to see that i've set a standard for that heh.
<powersj> :)
<powersj> #ACTION: rbasak, powersj, cpaelzer to draft mysql triage response page like nginx has (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: : rbasak, powersj, cpaelzer to draft mysql triage response page like nginx has (carried over)
<ahasenack> where is the nginx triage page?
<rbasak> I'm afraid it's quite far down my todo list at the moment :-/
<powersj> ahasenack: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NGINX
<ahasenack> thx
<ahasenack> all caps
<teward> or more specifically https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NGINX#BugTriage if you want to jump to that section
<powersj> ACTION: nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot
<teward> ahasenack: it's also linked on the Bug Squad Triage Guide for some special-case handling things.
<powersj> ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot
<teward> ahasenack: if you have any NGINX-triage-specific questions you can toss them my way, the nginx triage rules are pretty 'normal' except for a few cases.
<nacc> powersj: please carry
<powersj> #ACTION: nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot
<meetingology> ACTION: : nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot
<rharper> #ilnk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NGINX
<rharper> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NGINX
<powersj> #ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot
<meetingology> ACTION: : nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot
<powersj> rharper: thx
<powersj> ACTION: rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init
<powersj> ACTION: rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init
<rharper> carry
<rharper> both
<rharper> *sigh*
<powersj> #ACTION: rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init
<meetingology> ACTION: : rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init
<powersj> #ACTION: rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init
<meetingology> ACTION: : rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init
<powersj> ACTION: powersj to update copy and paste commands for IRC meeting to say artful
<powersj> done! (I think) we will find out if they all work today :)
<rharper> ooh
<rharper>  you can # done it
<rharper> I think
 * rharper has never used that
<powersj> #done: powersj to update copy and paste commands for IRC meeting to say artful
<powersj> hmm
<powersj> #DONE powersj to update copy and paste commands for IRC meeting to say artful
<nacc> heh
<powersj> ok guess it doesn't echo it maybe
<nacc> ISAIDDONE
<nacc> where's dpb1 to yell something
<powersj> ACTION: powersj to find out who owns bug tracking site, get artful link
<powersj> this is also done :) and it is bdmurray who owns them and got me the artful link
<powersj> #done powersj to find out who owns bug tracking site, get artful link
<powersj> ACTION: dpb1 to talk to kirkland re: old kernels
<powersj> I am going to mark this one done as well as I know this happened, objections?
<ahasenack> so there was that thread
<ahasenack> yeah
<rharper> ack, mark it done
<powersj> #done: dpb1 to talk to kirkland re: old kernels
<powersj> #topic Artful Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Artful Development
<rharper> nacc: looks like you're filling in nicely with all the caps
<powersj> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
<powersj> hahah
<nacc> rharper :) trying!
<slashd> o/ guys, I'm sprinting this week and next week so I won't attend today and next week meeting. I'll be back to normal schedule on May 16th.
<powersj> slashd: thx for heads up
<teward> wrt NGINX and Artful: NGINX 1.12.0 uploaded to Artful, and I'm working with Debian to ask them to put a 1.12.0 upload before they switch onto mainline as they normally do so it's a nicer merge.
<teward> Otherwise there'll be a big diff :P
<teward> (comprised of multiple smaller diffs >.>)
<powersj> #info nginx 1.12.0 uploaded to artful
<powersj> #subtopic blueprints
<powersj> #https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-aa-server-core
<powersj> oops...
<powersj> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-aa-server-core
<powersj> any updates on blueprint?
<powersj> #subtopic Release Bugs
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<powersj> Looking good there
<powersj> I'm going to keep moving on then
<powersj> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd)
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<powersj> #info slashd sprinting this week, so not present, back May 16
<powersj> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> Last week got some new jenkins test jobs for cloud-init and curtin up and running for artful and zesty proposed and got the ppc64el server ISO tests going.
<powersj> This week need to finish getting my merge for i386 and amd64 server ISO tests in, update UTAH, and kick things off. Working on cloud-init testing of other distro packages and some unit tests.
<powersj> #link https://code.launchpad.net/~powersj/utah/remove_cdromupgrade/+merge/323337
<powersj> that's the merge to get rid of the exception for cdromupgrade
<powersj> questions for me?
<powersj> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Nothing I can think of to bring up (limited cycles, so for anything needing attention ping me or subscribe me to bug reports). Anything right now?
<powersj> #info nothing at the moment, please ping smb if something needs attention
<powersj> anything else?
<powersj> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<powersj> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<powersj> I don't think I've seen anything
<powersj> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<powersj> we did bug squashing last week, so would be again next week?
<powersj> nacc: that right?
<ahasenack> I think it didn't happen last week
<powersj> ah
<powersj> I'll follow up with him
<powersj> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<powersj> Anything for open discussion? otherwise I'll end this rather quiet meeting
<teward> powersj: add an action item for me for Artful for an nginx release notes blurb to be added - lots changes between 1.10.x and 1.12.x heh.
<nacc> powersj: yeah want to schedule it for this week
<teward> and it would be great to have that prepped and ready to go before we reach Release in a few months.
<powersj> #action: teward to add release notes blurb for nginx (1.10.x -> 1.12.x)
<meetingology> ACTION: : teward to add release notes blurb for nginx (1.10.x -> 1.12.x)
<teward> powersj: thank you kindly :)
<powersj> #info next bug squashing day this week
<powersj> anything else?
<powersj> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<powersj> same time, same place, and cpaelzer you owe me ;)
<teward> an observation: isn't it nice when these meetings are swift, quick, and quiet?  :P
<powersj> sometimes :) I do like the discussions
<powersj> o/ thx folks
<powersj> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue May  2 16:22:36 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-05-02-16.04.moin.txt
<ahasenack> thx powersj
<teward> thanks, powersj and everyone
<teward> *disappears into the darkness again*
<rbasak> Thanks powersj!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-05-04
<akash__> hello people
<akash__> any bangladeshi here ?
<cyphermox> o/
<sil2100> o/
<ogra_> oh, the thursday yoga club
<tdaitx> o/
<cyphermox> hey tdaitx
<cyphermox> we won't have bdmurray, or slangasek, or gaughen, maybe we might as well cancel
<rbalint> \o
<tdaitx> I can just append today's status in the next one
<bdmurray> that'll be way too much data!
<doko> ok, then going on with real work ...
 * sil2100 doesn't have much to report
<sil2100> Since I was on holidays most of the time
<sil2100> infinity is on off as well I guess
<cyphermox> probably
<cyphermox> too bad I had prepared my script for the meeting :)
<tdaitx> cyphermox, I am sure slangasek won't mind if you want to use it next week =)
<cyphermox> ahah
<iulian> aisrael: Hi there. You around?
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-04-30
<bashfulrobot> wxl: that was one of the best reads.
<wxl> bashfulrobot: i'm not sure it was the BEST :)
<bashfulrobot> wxl: Does entertaining count?
<wxl> i'll allow that :)
<wxl> what offtopic channels you live in bashfulrobot ?
<bashfulrobot> Most interactions are in #ubuntu-release (so far), but I'm also monitoring #ubuntu-{budgie,ca,devel,irc,meeting,meeting2,news,qt,quality}
<bashfulrobot> wxl: ^^
<wxl> yeah i guess offtopic was what i was looking for. you get to know someone and inevitably things devolve from the topic at hand :)
<bashfulrobot> As well as #snappy and #lxcontainers
<wxl> may i suggest #lubuntu-offtopic? it's pretty quiet.
<bashfulrobot> sure
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-05-03
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> heya
<philroche> \o
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  3 15:07:00 2018 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<xnox> we released... hopefully... everywhere...
<cyphermox> any business so far post-release while we all deal with new merges, SRUs, etc?
<cyphermox> going once
<cyphermox> going twice
<cyphermox> gone!
<cyphermox> thanks all!
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  3 15:08:45 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-05-03-15.07.moin.txt
<elopio> wxl: Wimpress: jose: ahoneybun: marcoceppi: meeting in 5 minutes.
<elopio> wxl: Wimpress: jose: ahoneybun: marcoceppi: ready?
<wxl> more or less, @el
<wxl> um
<wxl> elopio
<elopio> did elacheche say something about not being around?
<elopio> hey elacheche :)
<elacheche> Hey elopio
<elopio> wxl: more or less means you are going to participate or not?
<wxl> elopio: means i'm here and as ready as i can be given that i'm at work :)
<flocculant> :D
<elopio> on the last meeting I got very angry because we have asked many times for people to choose a better time so they can be in the meeting, but nobody has proposed anything.
<elopio> elacheche: are you going to participate?
<elacheche> Sure
<elopio> do you know if any of the others notified about their absence?
<elacheche> Nope
<wxl> i've heard nothing
<elopio> these meetings are becoming a waste of time for me. I could use this hour to do stuff and report async on the hub...
<elopio> anyway, let's start.
<elopio> #startmeeting Ubuntu Community Council 20180503
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  3 17:05:05 2018 UTC.  The chair is elopio. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic:
<elopio> We start with elopio, elacheche and wxl present. Wimpress, jose, ahoneybun and marcoceppi absent without notification.
<wxl> ahoneybun stepped down, did he not?
<elacheche> wxl: When? o_O
<elopio> I don't know, he mentioned something about an email that I didn't receive. I guess I'm not on the mailing list anymore, but marcoceppi doesn't reply.
<wxl> it was the community team mailing list
<wxl> let me dig it up
<elopio> wxl: what info do you have? Is that official?
<elacheche> I didn't get anything on the CC ML
<wxl> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2018-April/001572.html
<wxl> i can only imagine he meant to include the cc or meant to email the cc list and missed
<wxl> i recently replied to an email to the list regarding reinstating a member (genii, who wasn't paying attention to members) and replied back but failed to include him, so these things do happen
<elopio> alright. Thanks ahoneybun for the notice. I hope to still see you around, and maybe join the next CC if you have the time.
<elopio> so, that's an important topic. We need a replacement for ahoneybun.
<wxl> i was just adding a note
<wxl> i can't add it to the agenda but i replied to it at least
<flocculant> surely you replace ahoneybun when the term is up? not mid-term
<elopio> Also, we agreed that after not attending three meetings without notification, we would ask the person to step down.
<elopio> since then, marcoceppi has missed the three meetings we had.
<wxl> well, he's gone, flocculant. like didn't even finish his term.
<flocculant> mmm - well nothing to do with me I guess
<elopio> flocculant: why wait? We need people to help us now.
<wxl> elopio: i don't mean to make excuses, but can we be sure he got those requirements?
<wxl> i mean i know we put the info out there......
<elopio> wxl: isn't that even worse?
<wxl> quite possibly :/
<elopio> anyway, the agreement was not to chase people as I was starting to do. And instead, expect them to work as they promised with their candidature
<wxl> and i still think those are reasonable expectations
<elopio> wxl: elacheche: should I send an email to marcoceppi asking him to step down?
<flocculant> not sure this should be happening now in here
<flocculant> are you going to run the meeting ?
<elopio> for the record, I'm also happy if he steps up instead, and starts participating. I'm not sure if that fits into our previous agreement.
<wxl> it's all part of it
<elopio> flocculant: that's what the meeting is for.
<wxl> i think that's the appropriate solution, unfortunately, elopio
 * elacheche have no comments for the moement
<flocculant> right well - I wanted to bring something up - but as you're all just bickering I'll do it another time when you're less likely to bicker amongst yourselves
<elopio> ok.
<wxl> i'm pretty clear no one here is bickering but feel free to speak up if you urgently need to get something out, flocculant
<Wimpress> o/
<Wimpress> Sorry I'm late, had another meeting overlap
<elopio> hello Wimpress
<elopio> elacheche abstains, wxl and I think we should ask marcoceppi to step down. Wimpress, your opinion?
<elopio> Wimpress?
<Wimpress> Caught up on the Backlog.
<Wimpress> Shall we progress through the posted agenda.
<wxl> do we not want to deal with this issue we're currently dealing with?
<elopio> I think this is the only topic that requires immediate action.
<Wimpress> It's not on the agenda. I think we should discuss it in AoB.
<elopio> but we can leave it to the end if you prefer.
<Wimpress> Let's belt through the agenda and circle back to this.
<elopio> alright, let's go in order.
<elopio> #topic Progress from last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Progress from last meeting
<elopio> #subtopic Bold bug triaging - @Wimpress
<Wimpress> No progress. Sorry.
<elopio> Wimpress: did jose forwarded you the message?
<elopio> what's missing is to poke wgrant?
<Wimpress> No. But I know who to contact.
<Wimpress> Yes.
<Wimpress> Just didn't get round to it.
<Wimpress> Release and UbuCon kept my attention elsewhere.
<elopio> ok. It would be good to ask now if it's still a problem
<elopio> we have been so slow that maybe it was resoled by itself.
<elopio> it would be good to talk to William anyway, to know what to do next time.
<elopio> #action @elopio to ask an updated status of the situation from the involved people
<meetingology> ACTION: @elopio to ask an updated status of the situation from the involved people
<elopio> #action @Wimpress to talk to wgrant
<meetingology> ACTION: @Wimpress to talk to wgrant
<elopio> #topic Triage CoC bug - all CC
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Triage CoC bug - all CC
<Wimpress> No progress from me.
<wxl> sadly i've done nothing with this but will do so this week
<elopio> I've been doing this. I feel bad about closing the bugs I disagree with, but I guess I'll have to do it. I'll try to be nice.
<ahoneybun> I'm here sorry was stuck on something.
<wxl> you have been? why didn't i get the notifications????
<elopio> so, there are a few important bugs. One suggests the addition of an antiharrassment sentence, and it has a merge proposal. I think this will be great, so I'll push it forward. Feel free to comment on the bug if you have opinions.
<wxl> and shouldn't we discuss before closing?
<elopio> There's another about the process being too hard, with a suggestion for a screencast. This would be awesome, but I don't have that skill. So maybe we can ask around on the hub for volunteers.
<elopio> wxl: what if I comment with my intention to close, leaving the bug as incomplete so it closes itself if nobody comments?
<wxl> yes but i'm confused as to why i got no notifications
<wxl> the cc should be included on every bug
<elopio> This is for things like phrasing, with suggestions that in my opinion are not improving the text.
<elopio> or suggestions to add sentences that I don't think should be part of the CoC
<elopio> wxl: you didn't get any notification because I just took notes on my notebook, haven't touched the state of the bugs yet.
<wxl> OH
<wxl> :)
<wxl> then yes. we did say to have discussion on the bug, so let's do that.
<elopio> There's one weird point, that the text on the page is slightly different than the one on the repo. Minor things, like periods at the end. I guess that means that the page is generated manually, so maybe we should work on automation for that.
<wxl> a "here's my opinion and i move to close" would suffice
<wxl> yes
<elopio> but yes, that's the gist. Nothing super urgent, the most important one is the one about it being too hard. So we need to figure out ways to improve it. Mentoring people to get a GPG key sounds like fun to me, and good for the world :)
<elopio> wxl: I'll start moving my comments to the bugs. I will not close them, mark them as incomplete waiting for other opinions.
<wxl> i've got some ideas with that, so when we get to that bug we'll deal with it
<elopio> so, #action @elopio to comment on the CoC bugs and update the status.
<elopio> #topic Clearly define governance seats, terms, and quorum - @elacheche
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Clearly define governance seats, terms, and quorum - @elacheche
<elacheche> I had a chat with popey an hour ago about that, because he's one of the oldest contributors in boards.. The 4 members quorum is just like a logical formula to get a majority of 7 people board to be present.. Unfortunately, I coudln't get in touch with other contributors to share their thoughts about that..
<elopio> also take into account that we have been struggling to get 4 people on this meeting.
<elacheche> Coudln't find anything usefull in the wiki.. And multiples MLs archives are private, I can't search in there :/
<wxl> that suggests a majority is the definition of quorum
<wxl> which i think makes logical sense
<elopio> I'm not sure if that means we should define quorum based on the people present on the meeting, or we must skip the meetings if there's not enough people.
<wxl> robert's rules of order defines it as something like the largest number that can be expected to show up
<wxl> which is to say it can be almost anything
<elopio> elacheche: I think there's no need to dig too much. I'm happy for you to decide a new rule that makes the boards happy, and document it so the future boards have it clear.
<elopio> what about opening it up for discussion on the hub, and make a decission on the meeting next month?
<wxl> yeah we need something set in stone
<elacheche> Actually I didn't define anything, I just shared the information that I thought it was documented years ago based on what I read while being present in meetings when I was just a non-ubuntu member
<elacheche> +1 elopio
<wxl> we should probably make a poll defining some options and just vote on it
<wxl> http://www.dummies.com/careers/business-skills/roberts-rules-for-defining-a-quorum/
<elopio> #action @elacheche to open a post on the hub to discuss the definition of quorum
<meetingology> ACTION: @elacheche to open a post on the hub to discuss the definition of quorum
<elopio> wait, wxl, so no post? Just decide ourselves?
<wxl> no, make a poll on the hub
<wxl> except that the poll is binding when the date has ended, not when we reach quorum XD
<wxl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum#Number_constituting_a_quorum
<wxl> seems that majority of members is the standard
<elopio> wxl: I think this shouldn't be an open poll. It should be a decission of the community council.
<wxl> oh ok
<wxl> yeah i guess that makes sense
<wxl> i still think we should go time based
<elacheche> If it's a private we will need to do that on the ML, otherwise the Hub
<wxl> no reason not to do it in public, but i'm not sure you can do polls restricted to a particular membership
<elacheche> yep
<elopio> I was suggesting open discussion, to gather ideas or opinions. And make the decission based on that. We can vote here, or on the mailing list, or leave a comment on the hub, no preference there.
<elacheche> We can get the boards involved in the poll too
<wxl> +1 elacheche i think that's crucial
<wxl> i brought this up after my pain in dealing with it in other boards
<elacheche> We can do that on a private plateform, like the one we use to vote on members for CC, and share the link on boards MLs
<wxl> works for me
<elacheche> And as we are CC, I think we can send mails to any ML without being members of it :D
<elopio> ok. So post or no post? And who takes care of preparing the poll and inviting the boards?
<wxl> well we can but it's still up to them to accept it
<wxl> post it, then email the boards and ask them for input
<ahoneybun> I feel like the idea of a quorum should be public as it will effect other boards as well.
<wxl> i think the ultimate decision should be a cc one
<elopio> but we need an owner for this topic. Otherwise we will talk a lot here with no actions.
<elopio> I can do it on june. Not this month. So any takers, or we leave it for the future?
<wxl> well if elacheche isn't into it, i'll take it on
<elacheche> I can do that, sorry was on an other screen x)
<elacheche> We can do that together wxl ?
<wxl> elacheche: you do the post and i'll contact boards?
<elacheche> OK :)
<elopio> ok, so the previous action stands. That's great, because I have no idea how to tell the bot to delete :)
<elopio> #action wxl to contact the boards and tell them about the quorum discussion
<meetingology> ACTION: wxl to contact the boards and tell them about the quorum discussion
<wxl> afk for 5m
<elopio> and I would say we leave the tasks about terms and governance seats for when we have finished the ones about quorum.
<elopio> any other comments?
<elacheche> Nope
<elopio> #topic Send the emails to liri and enlightenment contacts - @Wimpress
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Send the emails to liri and enlightenment contacts - @Wimpress
<Wimpress> Emails sent to the contacts I indetified a few days ago.
<Wimpress> No replies as yet.
<wxl> back
<wxl> hey i met the debian maintainer for enlightenment at lfnw
<wxl> he was super cool! i'd be happy to reach out to him if that's helpful
<elopio> alright, so no more actions other than waiting to see if they are interested.
<Wimpress> wxl: Please do
<wxl> he actually became the maintainer out of necessity being a user
<wxl> make an action for me please elopio
<Wimpress> elopio: Looks like wxl is taking an action to contact Debian maintainer of E
<Wimpress> :-)
<elopio> #action contact the enlightenment debian maintainer - @wxl
<meetingology> ACTION: contact the enlightenment debian maintainer - @wxl
<elopio> awesome to see progress :) This topic is exciting, thanks.
<elopio> #topic Make a post on the hub about the guerrilla marketing campaign. Share the draft. @Wimpress
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Make a post on the hub about the guerrilla marketing campaign. Share the draft. @Wimpress
<Wimpress> Sorry, no progress,
<elopio> Wimpress: I told you on the last meeting that now I could help here. Do you want me to start the topic and try to contact people?
<elopio> the only problem is that I could turn you idea in something different. But if you send me short bullet points of what you wanted, I can try to keep close to your ideas.
<Wimpress> elopio: Would be helpful, yes please.
<Wimpress> I think you get idea. Please make a start.
<elopio> #action @elopio to start a topic on the hub about guerrilla marketing
<meetingology> ACTION: @elopio to start a topic on the hub about guerrilla marketing
<elopio> damn, I mixed topics and subtopics. Sorry for the mess.
<elopio> #subtopic Diversity and inclusion call - @elopio
<elopio> there was a very nice panel yesterday, with people from different communities trying to figure out code of conduct stuff
<wxl> oh where was this?
<elopio> here is the recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF1aWYLRwtg
<elopio> this is the project: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Diversity_and_Inclusion_for_Communities_and_Contributors
<elopio> there's a google group, and the next meeting is on june 6th.
<elopio> we have a lot to learn here, and a lot to share too. So jump in if it sounds fun to you.
<wxl> oh nice
<elopio> #topic Update on community donations report.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Update on community donations report.
<Wimpress> No progress. popey and I need to allocate time to work on this.
<wxl> may i make a suggestion that we have a regular schedule of these updates?
<wxl> s/update/report/
<elopio> Wimpress: the last ETA was this week. Can you give us a new ETA?
<elopio> wxl: as I understood, the idea was to catch up on the missing reports to go back to the regular schedule.
<wxl> i didn't know there was a regular schedule
<Wimpress> I'll discuss with popey and try to get this scheduled this month.
<elopio> Wimpress: works for me. Also, please let us know if we can help. This month I have a little more time than the previous.
<Wimpress> OK, having never done it before we don't know what help we need yet.
<elopio> :) sounds like the recurrent topic. It seems to me that at the very least, the next CC will have it easier after our term.
<elopio> well, I hope.
<elopio> #action Wimpress and popey to catch up on the community donations reports
<meetingology> ACTION: Wimpress and popey to catch up on the community donations reports
<elopio> #topic Replacement for @aaronhoneycutt, status of @marcoceppi.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Replacement for @aaronhoneycutt, status of @marcoceppi.
<elopio> we are back to where we started.
<Wimpress> ahoneybun: You commented here earlier. Can you confirm you intend to step down?
<Wimpress> If so, CoC describes how to stand down from a position responsibly.
<Wimpress> What notice are you giving us?
<elopio> Wimpress: on the
<elopio> Wimpress: on the
<elopio> Wimpress: on the
<elopio> oh, sorry. We call this "la chiripiorca" here.
<elopio> Wimpress: on the email, he says: "I will still help out where I can until a new member can fill
<elopio> my spot.
<elopio> "
<elopio> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2018-April/001572.html
<Wimpress> elopio: Regarding marcoceppi, has the decision we took about non-showing council members been communicated to all CC members?
<elopio> that sounds reponsible stand down to me.
<wxl> +1 elopio
<Wimpress> Yep, agreed.
<wxl> Wimpress: i don't think we've chased down every member and told them, but it's all been there in the discussions of the meetings
<elopio> Wimpress: it was notified on the mailing list and on the hub. I don't know if he received it, but I was telling wxl that if not, that sounds even worse to me.
<Wimpress> I think we should bring this decision to his attention.
<Wimpress> Directly.
<Wimpress> And ask if he still wishes to participate on the CC.
<elopio> I don't think we can just remove anybody.
<Wimpress> Indeed.
<wxl> i don't think there was a subject on the list specifically about that
<elacheche> I agree
<wxl> and perhaps a change like that warrants a more clear communication
<Wimpress> elopio: Can you circulate the details of the decision that was taken to CC members please?
<wxl> this is the best we had https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/private/community-council/2018-March/018244.html
<wxl> but the subject doesn't suggest it
<Wimpress> Let's have a clear communication.
<wxl> i think a good first step would be creating a list message with something like "important change in CC term requirements"
<elopio> if he wants to stay, I am ok giving him three more opportunities.
<wxl> i agree
<elopio> you mention that it was not properly communicated, so I'm also ok starting the count from this meeting.
<wxl> let's reach out and make sure that all members of the cc know
<ahoneybun> Wimpress, I can confirm.
<wxl> i'm sure jose was there for the discussion but maybe he didn't see the final decision?
<Wimpress> ahoneybun: ty
<wxl> so let's do an email to the list and cc marco and jose directly
<elopio> wxl: I don't think that I'm the right person to notify about this calmly and clearly. I'm very disappointed at marcoceppi and jose just not showing up, or really just not doing anything.
<elopio> wxl: do you want to take this action?
<wxl> elopio: sure, i can do it
<Wimpress> I think the email should be sent to all CC members.
<Wimpress> Not the ML.
<Wimpress> Everyone should be `to:`
<elopio> #decission because elopio didn't notify clearly about the requirement to attend the meetings, we will reset the counter.
<Wimpress> Let's not finger anyone when this is sent.
<wxl> well tbh there are only two people we're not sure about knowing about this
<wxl> but i can send it to all of them. i'll do both :)
<elopio> #action wxl will notify all the CC members about this
<meetingology> ACTION: wxl will notify all the CC members about this
<Wimpress> wxl: Thanks.
<elopio> sorry, I lost the agenda.
<elopio> #topic Rejoining process for membership.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council 20180503 Meeting | Current topic: Rejoining process for membership.
<wxl> i just wanted us to get some eyes on this
<wxl> tsimonq2 just proposed this
<elopio> I like it.
<wxl> tl;dr there have occassionally been members expired for more than 1 month who have asked for reinstatement and it was kind of unclear whether or not that's reasonable
 * elacheche will share comments about that via the ML as a UMB member :)
<wxl> his process asks them to essentially apply for it and then the board checks back on them to make sure all is well
<wxl> i like it :)
<elopio> this is a decission that falls on the membership board, right?
<elopio> I'm wondering what should be our involvement here.
<wxl> i think ultimately, yes, but they did include the cc for input
<wxl> certainly if you have concerns about it, i'd pipe up
<elopio> no concerns, just +1 from me.
<wxl> ditto here
<wxl> so maybe when you reply elacheche you can say the cc looked it over and the general consensus is positive :)
<elopio> well, elacheche is reserving his comment.
<elacheche> wxl OK, I'll use my two "hats" x)
<elopio> :) nice.
<wxl> :)
<elopio> I realized now that I moved to the next topic too quickly.
<elopio> we didn't discuss about the replacement for ahoneybun.
<elopio> I would suggest to first wait to see if we need more replacements.
<wxl> ok
<wxl> i'll also try to approach marcoceppi directly
<elopio> Wimpress suggested before to bump the next candidates from the past election. Let's keep that in mind, to discuss if it's a good idea or not when the time comes.
<wxl> ok
<elopio> The agenda has no more topics. Anybody else has more topics?
<elopio> I'll start the count down.
<elopio> 10...
<elopio> 9...
<elopio> 8...
<elopio> 7...
<elopio> 6...
<elopio> 5...
<elopio> 4...
<elopio> 3...
<elopio> 2
<elopio> 1...
<elopio> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  3 18:35:15 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-05-03-17.05.moin.txt
<wxl> thanks all
<elacheche> thanks guys :)
<elopio> thanks for attending. Sorry (not sorry) for being grumpy :) I need a beer.
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-05-04
<sir54> hi
<sir54> hi pavlushka
<pavlushka> Hi Sir sir54
<sir54> How ya doing?
<pavlushka> I am doing good sir54 , how about you?
<sir54> I am good
<sir54> Glas its finally Fridy
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-05-02
<juliank> 0/
<cyphermox> o/
<tdaitx> \o
<xnox> o/
<rbalint> o/
<xnox> tdaitx, start the meeting!
<tdaitx> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May  2 15:06:35 2019 UTC.  The chair is tdaitx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<tdaitx> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<tdaitx> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<tdaitx> vorlon bdmurray infinity rbalint xnox cyphermox tdaitx sil2100 juliank doko waveform mwhudson
<bdmurray> modified retracer cronjob to count users of 19.04
<bdmurray> created eoan apport test crashes for the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> tested update of production Error Tracker
<bdmurray> wrote a test for checking to see if livepatch dialog appears in u-r-u
<bdmurray> uploaded, tested, released disco SRU of fix for LP: #1824430
<bdmurray> wrote code to create cards, lanes in trello from a moinmoin export
<bdmurray> transferred w.u.c/NewReleaseCycleProcess to trello
<bdmurray> emailed ubuntu-devel about the above
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1824430 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "disco dist-upgrader tarball has a broken symlink in it" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1824430
<bdmurray> started a conversation re the Supported filed in meta-release
<bdmurray> uploaded u-r-u change which enables keeping ESM enabled
<bdmurray> created rls-ee reports
<bdmurray> done
<bdmurray> infinity:
<infinity>  * bionic HWE stack reviews and discussions
<infinity>  * investigation and discussion of msttfcorefonts versus update-notifier
<infinity>  * lots of various process discussions
<infinity>  * spent some time inconclusively investigating glibc unicode/translit bug
<infinity>  * not-quite-EOLing trusty
<infinity> (done)
<xnox> rbalint, ?
<rbalint> (short week due to national holiday)
<rbalint> * updated systemd fix on review for LP: #1803993
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1803993 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Password appears on the VT1 screen" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1803993
<rbalint> * verified many srus
<rbalint> * prepared new round of unattended-upgrades srus
<rbalint> * checking what is missing for running snaps in wsl and preparing a branch for fixing those (wip): https://github.com/rbalint/snapd/tree/wsl-fixes
<rbalint> (done)
<xnox> vorlon,
<vorlon>  * short week; sick last week, vacation this Monday
<vorlon>  * babysitting autopkgtests through the KDE tests that were causing I/O contention on the master
<vorlon>  * lots of catch-up merges for Foundations
<vorlon>  * prep for Lyon roadmap sprint this month
<vorlon> (done)
<xnox> * Unbreak subiquity images with new implicit boot=casper
<xnox> * Switch pcsc-lite to python3
<xnox> * Switch sssd to python3
<xnox> * Switch etckeeper to python3
<xnox> * Switch heartbeat to python3 bug #1735355
<ubottu> bug 1735355 in heartbeat (Debian) "heartbeat: port to Python3" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1735355
<xnox> * Set critical on the remaining 3 packages (mailman3 MIR, duplicity, swift)
<xnox>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=py2-demotion
<xnox> * Unbreak golang-defaults / ubuntu-report migration
<xnox> * Working on OpenSSL perl SRU
<xnox> * Progressing with subiquity zdev screen LPAR testing
<xnox> * IBM Z updates:
<xnox>   - bug #1826193
<ubottu> bug 1826193 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[19.10 FEAT] Upgrade openCryptoki 3.11.1" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826193
<doko> too less on the Py3 list ...
<xnox>   - bug #1825216
<ubottu> bug 1825216 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[19.10 FEAT] Upgrade libhugetlbfs >=2.21" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825216
<xnox>   - bug #1825350
<ubottu> bug 1825350 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[19.10 FEAT] gzip compression improvements" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825350
<xnox>   - bug #1814796
<ubottu> bug 1814796 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[19.10 FEAT] Provide optimized libatlas libraries for different types of z Systems" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1814796
<xnox> done
<cyphermox> shim review: Endless OS; CloneDeploy
<cyphermox> more speccing of netplan features
<cyphermox> discussing shim next steps; needs update in Ubuntu prior to shim 16 release (arm64 support)
<cyphermox> grub2 SRU: fix gfxpayload issues on UEFI (Hyper-V) for Xenial (bug LP: #1826453)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1826453 in grub2-signed (Ubuntu Trusty) "Grub2 Booting in blind mode due to "invalid video mode specification `text'"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826453
<xnox> doko, that's only things in main
<cyphermox> netplan SRU for bug LP: #1825206 (renderer handling)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825206 in netcfg (Ubuntu) "No wifi adapter present in Gnome after upgrade to 0.96-0ubuntu0.18.10.2" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825206
<cyphermox> reworking netplan error / validation code
<cyphermox> updated test case for VPN leakage bug in the Bionic NM SRU that never ends (bug LP: #1754671)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1754671 in network-manager (Ubuntu Bionic) "Full-tunnel VPN DNS leakage regression" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1754671
<cyphermox> debugging Andy's grub menu bug (LP: #1827203)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1827203 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "2.02+dfsg1-12ubuntu2: terminal not initialised in GRUB_TIMEOUT_STYLE=menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1827203
<tdaitx> cyphermox: done?
<cyphermox> (done)
<tdaitx> * openjdk-8 security update
<tdaitx>   - packaged & verified tests on disco
<tdaitx>   - uploaded xenial, bionic, cosmic, and disco packages to the security team
<tdaitx> * openjdk-7 security update
<tdaitx>   - fixing conflicts
<tdaitx> * triaged reported failures for openjdk-11 transition (LP: #1825604, LP: #1825037, LP: #1827090, Debian: #925509)
<tdaitx> * jck 11: got access, read over the docs, requested jenkins slaves to be nuked and updated to a newer release (currently on trusty)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825604 in netbeans (Ubuntu) "Netbeans 10 requires openjdk-11" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825604
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825037 in scilab (Ubuntu) "scilab-cli and scilab-adv-cli does not start on bionic, cosmic, disco and eoan" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825037
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1827090 in tomcat8 (Ubuntu) ""-1" instead of "8005" in tomcat8-instance-create" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1827090
<ubottu> Debian bug 925509 in netbeans "netbeans: Netbeans not usable with java in Buster" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/925509
<tdaitx> sil2100 is out, go juliank! =)
<juliank>  * (short week due to May 1 holiday)
<juliank>  * uploaded livecd-rootfs for bionic, cosmic, disco, eoan (LP: #1826377)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1826377 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu Disco) "images shipping /var/cache/apt/*.bin" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826377
<juliank>  * worked a bit on multiple cloud workers for autopkgtest (https://code.launchpad.net/~juliank/autopkgtest-cloud/+git/autopkgtest-cloud/+merge/366571)
<juliank>  * some autopkgtest worker maintenance on saturday
<juliank>  * fixed gnutls28 autopkgtest on 32-bit (https://gitlab.com/gnutls/gnutls/merge_requests/986)
<juliank>  * python-apt SRUs to fix some locking issue (LP: #1826870, debian bug #922416)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1826870 in python-apt (Ubuntu Cosmic) "cache.commit() doesn't release the archives lock" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826870
<juliank>  * sent an email to sourceforge people about their servers misbehaving (also LP: #1713615)
<ubottu> Debian bug 922416 in python-apt "cache.commit() doesn't release the archives lock" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/922416
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713615 in ubuntu-restricted-extras (Ubuntu) "ttf-mscorefonts-installer fails because Redirection from https to http is forbidden" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713615
<juliank>  * made update-notifier's package-data-downloader delete incomplete files instead of resuming (LP: #1713615)
<juliank>  * added support to apt-helper download-file to pass multiple hashes (TODO: COMMIT/MERGE REQUEST)
<juliank>  * converted APT code to use 'explicit' constructors (https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/merge_requests/61/diffs)
<juliank>  * some APT code refactoring to enable future http2 work
<juliank>  * DebConf attendance planning
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> oh, there's a todo in there
<doko> - finished the isl transition
<doko> - GCC 9 release candidate 1
<doko> - travel and PyCon
<doko> - no May 1 yet for me
<doko> (done)
<juliank> the TODO above is https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/commit/4fa03143eee3776e2fa8fbd59d3cbaea40be0871
<waveform> * Refined pi "amazing" spec; all comments should now be resolved
<waveform> * Wrote pi image-building instructions
<waveform> * Working on consolidating raspi2 and raspi3 build processes (armhf and *possibly* arm64); issues around ubuntu-image building armhf images under arm64
<waveform> * Worked on wiringpi package comments (from Lukasz & upstream from Simon, LP: 1824370)
<waveform> * Attempted work-around for renaming boot partition for cloud-init (failed due to late mount of boot partition)
<waveform> * Popped out to vote (and wrestle pollsters)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1824370 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] wiringpi" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1824370
<waveform> (done)
<xnox> juliank, what's the sf thing?
<juliank> xnox: see LP: #1713615
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713615 in ubuntu-restricted-extras (Ubuntu) "ttf-mscorefonts-installer fails because Redirection from https to http is forbidden" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713615
<xnox> ah
<tdaitx> any more questions?
<cyphermox> ohh
<juliank> their mirrors fail if you have a file of size N and do a partial request for N-; they send you a redirect rather than a 416 with range: byte */N
<tdaitx> #topic Release incoming bugs
<tdaitx> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<xnox> juliank, fun
<xnox> tdaitx, hmmm. i guess we should update the url to -ee-  no?
<bdmurray> aren't we on ee now?
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<tdaitx> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> there's not much new there
<bdmurray> or really nothing new
<tdaitx> move along?
<vorlon> there are 3 high in incoming, what should we do with them?
<bdmurray> target the update-notifier one
<bdmurray> bug 1821412
<ubottu> bug 1821412 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) ""System program problem" report button does nothing" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1821412
<vorlon> +1
<bdmurray> I guess I should test bug 1825021 again
<ubottu> bug 1825021 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt's dpkgpm.cc WriteApportReport function should gather more data" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825021
<bdmurray> Given what juliank said
<juliank> yup
<bdmurray> I'll card it
<bdmurray> Or there is a card already
<bdmurray> Is that card prioritized?
<juliank> bdmurray: I mean, it also means that the modify PATH thing in u-r-u is useless with upgrades from cosmic and later
<juliank> You'd have to set the apt DPkg::Path option to actually set a path with those
<vorlon> I'll prioritize it
<bdmurray> juliank: but it happened on upgrade from cosmic2disco so it did work
<juliank> odd
<juliank> hmm
<juliank> no wait, it's only in disco
<juliank> so it's upgrades from disco that will start misbehaving
<juliank> maybe
<juliank> not sure
<juliank> Like I don't know what is in that imported dir
<bdmurray> juliank: which dir? imported in u-r-u only contains invoke-rc.d
<juliank> yeah that dir I think
<juliank> Like if you add something in there in eoan, it won't be used by disco
<juliank> that is, disco->eoan upgrades
<bdmurray> I hear you
<bdmurray> so either way that needs testing and I'll update the card
<bdmurray> that leaves bug 1812688 as high
<ubottu> bug 1812688 in automake-1.16 (Ubuntu) "self-check-report.sh fails on armhf/disco, was set to skip as an ubuntu delta without explanation" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1812688
<vorlon> yeah we should probably at least revert that and leave it on the pile
<vorlon> so +1 from me for taking it
<bdmurray> Okay, will target / card
<bdmurray> that's it then
<tdaitx> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<tdaitx> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<gaughen> rbalint, xnox which of you are going to pick up those systemd related things
<vorlon> the systemd autopkgtests continue to have a distressingly high failure rate
<xnox> yeah
<juliank> whoa that queue is small
<infinity> Don't queue shame me.
<xnox> we need a merge of v241 or the v242rcX and like investigate what's wrong.
<rbalint> i take it
<vorlon> xnox: v241? what does that have to do with systemd test flakiness?
<gaughen> thank you rbalint
<xnox> vorlon, to gather new different flakiness!
<vorlon> uh
<vorlon> xnox: so the recent history of retries shows different tests failing, etc
<xnox> storage -> needs to be properly de-raced
<cyphermox> I'm happy to take pyparted
<xnox> boot-smoke -> we fail to reboot 10 times in a row
<vorlon> xnox: do you also have busybox+glibc/s390x? (which is only not late now because I had a reupload)
<xnox> no, not yet
<gaughen> rbalint, I carded it
<gaughen> cyphermox, I'll creat a card
<vorlon> xnox: but you promiiiised
<cyphermox> gaughen: thanks
<vorlon> xnox: or do you need infinity to look at it?
<infinity> I don't own a mainframe.
<vorlon> infinity: but you have a jumprope
<infinity> I... Wat?
<vorlon> infinity: setjmp
<infinity> Oh.
<doko> must be freezing without a mainframe in the room
<rbalint> lintian is failing in Debian, too, it guess it will be fixed there soonish
<vorlon> infinity: (busybox changed its setjmp/longjmp usage, and it works in Debian w/ glibc 2.28, same binary fails w/ glibc 2.29)
<infinity> Yeah, the lintian issue is clearly upstream.
<infinity> vorlon: Did you try with 2.28 in cosmic?
<infinity> vorlon: (to rule out gcc build target differences, etc)
<vorlon> infinity: yes
<infinity> Kay.
<infinity> I blame IBM.
<gaughen> seems we're done with proposed-migration stuff
<tdaitx> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<vorlon> looks like no other business :)
<tdaitx> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May  2 15:43:28 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-05-02-15.06.moin.txt
<tdaitx> thanks!
<vorlon> tdaitx: thanks :)
<vorlon> and thanks, all!
<xnox> infinity, we can blame ibm, indeed. i like that.
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-04-28
<sarnold> mir meeting? :)
 * didrocks is around
<didrocks> but part of the team is in a sprint, so unsure
<sarnold> yeah, I figured that was a possibility :) hehe
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-04-30
<bdmurray> o/
<waveform> <.<   >.>   o.O
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Apr 30 15:05:00 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<bdmurray> juliank sil2100 vorlon infinity xnox waveform mwhudson rbalint cyphermox bdmurray tdaitx doko
<bdmurray> Apparently, I missed a memo about not having the meeting with the product sprint.
<bdmurray> My bad, let's just call it.
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Apr 30 15:08:45 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-04-30-15.05.moin.txt
