#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-23
<mpt> jdub: ping
<Burgundavia> mpt salut
<mpt> hi Burgundavia
<mpt> rock
* mpt got one panel crash, one gaim crash, and ten (10) "I've [sic]  detected a panel already running, and will now exit." messages
<Burgundavia> cool, you running breezy?
<Burgundavia> right
<mpt> @#%!
<Burgundavia> cool, you running breezy?
<Burgundavia> use xchat
<mpt> Was that for me, Burgundavia?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> No, and no, if I have to use badly-designed IM clients, I'd rather just use *one* badly-designed IM client
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> xchat sucks, but it is stable
* mpt installs gossip just to have a look anyway
<mpt> jdub: ping (sorry if I missed a previous pong)
<Burgundavia> jdub hasn't responded
<Burgundavia> gossip is very nice
<mpt> Burgundavia: Well, do *you* know how I can alter the Help front page? :-)
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> never looked, but I understand it is auto generated
<mpt> That's, um
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mpt> I don't believe that
<Burgundavia> front pages should not be auto generated
<mpt> No, I don't believe there's some computer program that says "I know, let's put "Desktop" on the front page, all by itself
<Burgundavia> have you seen the gimp help browser?
<mpt> Generated from *what*?
<Burgundavia> scroll keeper oml files I think
<mpt> "The GIMP help files are not installed."
<Burgundavia> help is current borked on breezy right now, so I can't see myself
<Burgundavia> gimp help is 6 meg
<Burgundavia> hmm, this needs some better deps
<mpt> yes, I noticed that
<mpt> gimp-help-en doesn't depend on gimp-helpbrowser
<Burgundavia> nor does gimp-common
<Burgundavia> help-common that is
<Burgundavia> already filed https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8263
<mpt> So what are "scroll keeper oml files"?
<mpt> I don't see any oml files in the ubuntu-docs repository
<Burgundavia> I am just remembering things that I heard. I am frequently wrong
<mpt> It looks to me like ubuntu-docs doesn't contain the help at all
<Burgundavia> lol
<mpt> jdub!
<mpt> Burgundavia: Gimp offers a Tip of the Day ... I thought tips of the day were prohibited in the Save Computer Users' Mental Health Act of 1997
<Burgundavia> sometimes tips of the day can be useful, but mostly not
<mpt> Okay, I just installed the gimp help browser, and the gimp help, and I choose "Help" from Gimp's menu, and it opens in ... Epiphany
<Burgundavia> shouldn't
<Burgundavia> you may have checked the "open in browser option"
<mpt> I didn't know there was such an option
<Burgundavia> by default it is about 200px wide
<Burgundavia> it pops up when you are missing the actual help files
<mpt> that's better
<Burgundavia> play with context help, is very cool
<mpt> Except that it's not help, it's a manual
<mpt> and by default, all it shows me is (1) a "Next" link (next what?), (2) a title, and (3) a copyright notice
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> and it has two close buttons
<mpt> ok, I'm whining
* mpt shuts up
<Burgundavia> don't worry, whining can be a good thing
* Burgundavia is unlikely to ever get offended by whining of mpt
<mvirkkil> Doea a plan regarding the menu editor exist?
<mvirkkil> precious: There is absolutely no point in doing further optimization unless you are using an ebedded platform.
<mvirkkil> Sorry.
<mvirkkil> Does anyone know why firefox doesn't have the gnome theme in hoary? (I was asked this, trying to find the answer)
<Burgundavia> it does
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Odd. Mine doesn't...
<mvirkkil> The back and forward arrows are the firefox standard, not the gnome standard.
<mdke> _froud_, here?
<mvirkkil> Who is respnsible for the udu wiki?
<mdke> responsible?
<mdke> try mdz if there is an issue with it
<mdke> or maybe jane silber
<mvirkkil> mdke: A bug in qt caused ridells changes to mess up the raw formatting of breezygoals. It raplced tabs with spaces.
<mvirkkil> replaced, even-
<mdke> yes i saw your conversation
<mvirkkil> mdke: So I was wondering if who would have enough rights to revert the  changes
<mdke> ah right i see
<mdke> mvirkkil, consult the page to see its access rights?
<mdke> mvirkkil, then if you can't revert, probably contact someone at canonical, like jane silber
<mvirkkil> mdke: Cool, didn't know about info :O)
<mvirkkil> Ridell reverted it already.
<mdke> good
<mdke> everyone should be able to revert i would have thought
<mdke> but it might depend on the page
<mvirkkil> mdke: Probably can. I'm just not as familiar with moinmoin as I am with mediawiki
<mvirkkil> so I didn't know where to do it, and I though I just didn't have enough rights.
<mdke> i'm not really familiar with it either, so best thing is to explore
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks for the help :)
<mdke> np
<froud> mdke: you looking for me?
<mdke> froud, hiya yes I was
<mdke> couple of problems
<froud> waz up
<mdke> can you do a validate on that gnome/userguide/C/usersguide.xml and let me know what the error means
<mdke> ?
<froud> ok
<mdke> great
<mdke> not a biggie
<froud> this one
<froud> E The entity "author-matthew-east" was referenced, but not declared.	usersguide.xml	file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/gnome/userguide/C/usersguide.xml	43:100
<mdke> mine phrases it slightly differently, but that's basically it
<mdke> matt@eustathios ubuntu-docs $ ./validate.sh gnome/userguide/C/usersguide.xml 
<mdke> gnome/userguide/C/usersguide.xml:43: parser error : Entity 'author-matthew-east' not defined
<mdke> -kevin-muligan; &author-sean-wheller; &author-niel-tallim; &author-matthew-east;
<mdke>                                                                                ^
<froud> it is declared as 
<froud> <!ENTITY author-mathew-east SYSTEM '../common/authors/mathew-east.xml'>
* mdke kicks froud 
<froud> in libs/global.ent
<froud> so I guess we nee dto add a tt
<mdke> only evil matthew's spell their name as mathew
<mdke> :)
<mdke> cool thx
<froud> Ok svn mv and change the declare
<mdke> hmm
<froud> want me to do it
<froud> ok hand ten a sec
<mdke> you wouldn't talk me through it would you?
<froud> oh sure
<mdke> that way i'll learn how its done
<froud> cd to common/authors
<mdke> ok
<mdke> its spelt right in there
<froud> hmm yes I see
<froud> sorry
<froud> ok open libs/global.ent
<froud> edit the string
<froud> <!ENTITY author-mathew-east SYSTEM '../common/authors/mathew-east.xml'>
<froud> to
<mdke> yep done
<froud> svn commit global.ent
<froud> validate your file
<mdke> cool it works
<mdke> thanks
<froud> no worries
<froud> anything else
<mdke> the other thing was: is there a reason for the discrepancy between the directory spelling "userguide" and the file spelling "usersguide"
<froud> no, but it is no biggy
<mdke> ok
<mdke> so i shouldn't mv it?
<froud> not worth changing IMHO
<mdke> your call
<froud> If you feel like doing it go for it
<mdke> will it break anything?
<froud> Ummm perhaps a few bits but noting enoromous that will take hours to fix
<froud> Go for it and then test
<mdke> if you wish I can grep the directory for instances of usersguide and edit it to userguide
<froud> yes you can and sed will help
<mdke> ok i'll work on that
<froud> cool, just trying to get readu fro Linux World next week
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> what are you doing at it?
<froud> Selling services
<froud> see my web site
<froud> http://www.inword.co.za
<mdke> cool
<froud> demo docbook and xml-based frameworks
<mdke> best of luck for that
<froud> thanks was at the exhibition center this morning
<mdke> got your own stand?
<froud> Novell, takes up a huge sapce
<mdke> i bet
<froud> yes, but the likes of Novell makes us look teenie weeny
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> gotta love em
<froud> But I have IBM and Novel right nextto me, so there should be loads of traffic
<mdke> NICE
<froud> Main thing is we're there
<mdke> do i need to change things in .svn directories?
<mdke> e.g.
<mdke> ./gnome/userguide/C/.svn/text-base/usersguide.xml.svn-base
<mdke> ./gnome/userguide/C/.svn/prop-base/usersguide.xml.svn-base
<froud> No when you do new checkin it will do it for you
<froud> remember you must use svn copy
<froud> then svn delete
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> not svn mv?
<froud> yes you can do a move
<froud> but safer do to copy then delete the old folder
<mdke> right
<mdke> i am just changing the filename, not the dir
<froud> Ah then it should be fine to do svn mv
<mdke> cool
<mdke> yeah its done an A then a D
<froud> we will have to remember to change the debs packaging
<froud> and the OMF file
<mdke> if its in the trunk tree then hopefully i'll find it grepping
<froud> the OMG is relative to the doc
<froud> OMF
<mdke> so what do i need to do?
<froud> do we have an OMG for userguide
<froud> no
<froud> so no worry
<mdke> ok
<mdke> cool
<froud> just check the packaging system
<mdke> committed the change: will work on grepping now
<froud> ok
<froud> I must do some work now or I will not be ready
<mdke> sure
<mdke> best of luck mate
<froud> hopefully you're having fun
<mdke> sure :D
<froud> great, that is what we need here, fun
<mdke> thanks for your help!
<froud> no worries
<mdke> later
<k31th> alright guys
<froud> awright k31th 
<froud> mdke: hows it going dude
* froud announces that he finally wiped SuSE off laptop and installs Kubuntu
<froud> now all I gotta do it is backup my workstation and do the same
<mdke> froud, not bad thanks
<mdke> you?
<mdke> cool, converting to ubuntu all round eh?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-24
<mkde> hi burgs
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hellp
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> that didnt go right
<jsgotangco> hello
<mpt> That Winton guy is cool
<mpt> jdub: ping
<Burgundavia> salut mpt 
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, salut
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<mpt> afternoon
<Burgundavia> how goes life for all?
<mpt> That jdub is a busy fellow
<jsgotangco> oh im thinking of taking up french classes
<jsgotangco> its a toss up between french and german
<Burgundavia> hmm, french is more widely spoken in the world
<Burgundavia> and I have heard german is a bitch to learn
<jsgotangco> hmmm i think german is more on delivery..it has a lot of english root words
<jsgotangco> for french, yeah i can go to quebec or in some african country and still speak it
<Burgundavia> quebecois is french, but don't tell the french that
<Burgundavia> and the french they speak in africa has got a crazy accent
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> is your french good?
<Burgundavia> not anymore
<Burgundavia> used to be almost fluent
<Burgundavia> I stopped using it just before i got the point where I would always remember it, and I haven't used it since
<Burgundavia> if I moved to a french speaking area/country, I would pick it up quickly
<jsgotangco> yeah sounds logical to do that
<jsgotangco> brb
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut froud 
<froud> Burgundavia: got your pgp key stuff sorted yet?
<Burgundavia> not yet, not heard back from elmo
<Burgundavia> I will ping him tomorrow
<froud> life is slow
<froud> Burgundavia: enrico committed deb packaging for computer dictionary
<froud> at http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/dictionary/packages/computerdictionary_1.0-1_all.deb
<froud> I am gonna use it to generate glossary on generic install guide
<froud> let people see how it works, if they like then then we can use it as a build dependancy on the docs that have glossary
<froud> makes life a bit easier when we have a glossary, no need to explain certain things
<froud> if user does not understand, they will click to the glossary
<Burgundavia> installs cleanly
<froud> yes
<froud> I committed a patch to svn that makes our xsl custom layer aware of it
<froud> if you wrap words like this
<froud> <para>Set your <glossterm linkend="NetAddr">network address</glossterm>.
<froud> </para>
<froud> opps
<froud> <para>Set your <glossterm linkend="NetAddr">network address</glossterm>.
<froud> </para>
<froud> ooop
<froud> <glossterm linkend="N-id-number-of-term">network address</glossterm>
<froud> when terms are marked this way you will get an automatically generate glossary
<froud> when
<froud> <glossary role="auto">
<froud>         <glossentry>
<froud>             <glossterm>Dummy</glossterm>
<froud>             <glossdef>
<froud>                 <para>Now you see me, next you won't.</para>
<froud>             </glossdef>
<froud>         </glossentry>
<froud>     </glossary>
<froud> is placed at the end of a docment
<froud> Since the dictionary will be installed in the same place for everyone, it will be easy for a person to reference it
<froud> if the dictionary is not installed then the glossary will generate, but will be empty
<froud> Burgundavia: what do you think?
<Burgundavia> very cool
<Burgundavia> how do we change stuff in the glossary? work with upstream?
<froud> There is much redundancy in the glossary database
<froud> I will give accounts to those who wish to commit
<froud> you up to it?
<froud> for example the term DHCP is full ofduplicates
<Burgundavia> sure, I could tweak. I dislike writing huge docs
<froud> this doc is a fork from the LDP Linux Dictionary
<froud> OK send me a username and password by email
<Burgundavia> can do
<froud> did you send it?
<Burgundavia> done now
<froud> Burgundavia: OK in pwd do svn://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/terms/trunk terms
<froud> Burgundavia: OK in pwd do svn://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/terms/trunk terms --username ??? --password ????
<froud> just incase you forgot
<froud> Burgundavia: As I said, you will find that there is much duplication in the database, we are working to reduce this
<froud> Burgundavia: this will normalize the database, so that it is easier to work with
<froud> Burgundavia: you will find that we xref to biblio
<froud> This enables you to copy from network or book sources and give credits
<froud> I plan to add support for the bibliograpghy to generic install guide soon
<froud> So unless you write it yourself, you must make a bibliographic entry
<froud> Burgundavia: project mailing lists dont work at present
<froud> we're working on that one:-)
<froud> is it checking out for you?
<Burgundavia> yep, checked out
<Burgundavia> I will dig around
<froud> OK
<froud> I just did a commit of glosterm markup example on generic instalguide
<froud> Once we have this working, I will aim to add support for inter-document linking and cross referencing
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud> morn jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> froud, hey hows it going how was the weekend
<Burgundavia> salut again
<froud> hectic, Linux World starts on tuesday
<froud> so been getting the booth ready
<jsgotangco> whoa inwords booth?
<froud> as usual I forgot a ton of things and must scramble at last minute
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> awsome i am in a client at the moment we're about to do some oracle stuff for the next 2 months
<jsgotangco> that means i have a job for 2 months heh
<froud> http://www.linuxworldexpo.co.za/
<froud> Ok cool
<froud> Oracle runs well on Linux
<jsgotangco> it does heh
<jsgotangco> i want to experiment though on this client
<Burgundavia> their website sucks, to be honest
<froud> Burgundavia: Africa dude
<Burgundavia> websites suck in NA too
<jsgotangco> heh
<froud> but checkout the exhibitor list
<Burgundavia> geography has little to do with how badly you build a website
<froud> expo > exhibiting
<jsgotangco> oh sabdfl is keynote (heh what else is new)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<froud> I think we have a good turnout fo rthe first ever in South Africa
<jsgotangco> wim coekaerts of oracle
<Burgundavia> you have to click through 3 levels to get to the vendor list
<jsgotangco> not bad
<froud> Yeah, usability is just great :-)
<Burgundavia> lol
* Burgundavia is a on a bit of a usablity kick right now
<Burgundavia> I have filed about 25-35 bugs on synaptic
<jsgotangco> give mvo a hard time heh
<froud> did you see that I finally kicked SuSE off my laptop. Installed Kubuntu :-)
<Burgundavia> mvo said he liked it
<Burgundavia> no, congrats
<Burgundavia> my brother is now running Ubuntu
<froud> How's he finding it
<Burgundavia> he likes it
<froud> All I need to do now is find time to backup my workstation then install it
<Burgundavia> " I just set the U File Manager up to connect to warbard.ca - very cool! FTP'ing to my webspace just like moving around my own files - hot damn"
<froud> He he, then there is me who still does FTP by cli :-)
<froud> jsgotangco: so with the new work, when will you get time for screen capts on kwick guide?
<jsgotangco> hmmm i have to fix my box let me finish first with the text by this week
<jsgotangco> ill think about the shots later
<froud> OK ;-)
<jsgotangco> i can still do docteam stuff anyway
<froud> OK
* jsgotangco remembers having to do PDA work as well
<froud> must do school run now, c ya all later
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<jsgotangco> wow that kubuntu guide is huge
<Burgundavia> yes
* Burgundavia curses the wiki again
<Burgundavia> we need a better wiki, so that people do this crap on our servers, not their
<jsgotangco> are you implying that if ubuntu gives proper resources, more people would jump into using ubuntu resources rather than using their own solutions
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> observe the gentoo wiki
<jsgotangco> mediawiki
<jsgotangco> its nice though
<Burgundavia> mediawiki is the best wiki engine, bar none
<jsgotangco> i like the howto index
<Burgundavia> I hate that we are not even considering it
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: it suffers from being a PHP program I believe
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, I know that
<Burgundavia> but one of the largest websites in the world runs it
<jsgotangco> brick wall atm dude
<Burgundavia> I know
<Burgundavia> media supports css and a lot of really html stuff
<Burgundavia> it basically throws the old "wikis look like crap" to the wind
<Kinnison> Aye, but it suffers in the same way as plone... All mediawiki based sites look just like wikipedia
<Burgundavia> right http://www.hula-project.com/Hula_Server
<Burgundavia> you can hack the css
* Kinnison grins
<Kinnison> and that looks worse
<Burgundavia> however, I have no idea how a zwiki-->mediawiki transition would look like
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, the point is, you don't have to make it look mediawiki
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: true
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: just like you *can* run a plone site which doesn't look like plone
<Kinnison> unfortunately very very few people do
<Burgundavia> most people don
<jsgotangco> why bother if it works unless you really want an identity no?
<Burgundavia> I don't really care what it looks like, I want to powerful syntax that is available
<Kinnison> going back to proper moin will help a lot
<Burgundavia> yes'
<Burgundavia> but media is moin expanded
<Burgundavia> full table syntax
<Burgundavia> with all the support for the html table stuff
<Burgundavia> and <div> stuff
<Kinnison> moin's table support is pretty good
<Kinnison> But anyway, it's fairly unlikely we'd move to mediawiki
<Kinnison> so this is kinda a moot debate :-)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I will grumble quitely, and watch people use other pages
* Kinnison glares at this SQL patch wot isn't doing what it is supposed to
<jsgotangco> #ubuntu-rant
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> how many offsite doc things have I seen now? 5? 6?
<mpt> jdub: ping
<Burgundavia> mpt, you haven't been able to get him yet?
<mpt> no, he's a busy person
<mpt> or, he's treating me with the distance I deserve
<mpt> or both
<Burgundavia> what do you need to talk with him about?
<mpt> help
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> I assume that was a statement, not a cry for some
<mpt> yes, help as in the stuff you get when you choose "Help"
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> salut mdke 
<Burgundavia> mpt, yes, my attempt at a joke at 2am
<mdke> he promised two emails to the list :/
<jsgotangco> hello
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<mdke> how's it going?
<jsgotangco> not bad
<jsgotangco> i went to the beach
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> i'd say
* jsgotangco still remembers that group of girls running
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> i bet the beaches are nice where you are
<jsgotangco> sure you get to choose which type of sand you like
* Burgundavia has memorys of the Seychelles
<jsgotangco> wow
<mdke> you don't get to choose much if you go to the beach here
<jsgotangco> i like sunny weather but my place is so humid at the moment
* mdke looks at the Kubuntu FAQ
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> mdke, its a direct rip, but nicely done
* mdke nods
<Burgundavia> we need to get the licence thing cleared up
<Burgundavia> as the old userguide.org is gpl and GFDL
* mpt can't even find any of Gnome's help docs in gnome-cvs
<Burgundavia> the new on is GPL only
<Burgundavia> and the kubuntu thing is GFDL
<mdke> is that going to go into xml?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> what you think
<mdke> no?
* jsgotangco is not an expert on this license things
<Burgundavia> I want it on our wiki first
<Burgundavia> we can worry about docbook later
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> yeah stuff can be easily dumped into docbook
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> corey, your email "Re: Ubuntu Hoary Tv-out howto"
<mdke> you've quoted an enormous piece of text and then written one line at the end
<jsgotangco> heh he didnt top post
* mdke nods
<mdke> cutting quotes is cool too tho
<Burgundavia> I don't see that on gmail, my bad
<mpt> The irony is that cutting quotes is easier when a program puts the caret at the top than if it puts it at the bottom
<jsgotangco> yeah i cut quotes but i prefer using plain text for email raither than the default html of most clients
<mdke> oh of course
<mdke> fucking gmail
<mdke> for the italian list we made a listiquette wiki page
<mdke> might translate it, it is pretty cool
<jsgotangco> hope people read it, heh, they like ignoring that kind of stuff just like eula and gpl
<mdke> so far not a huge amount of success actually
<mdke> but the page is cool
<mdke> people are still top posting and using html
<jsgotangco> yeah html for email sucks its only used for bling
<mdke> actually there is a sort of old english page
<mdke> http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ListiQuette
<jsgotangco> old english?
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> old, english
<jsgotangco> ye olde ubuntu linux
<jsgotangco> heh the directions for the way to Guadec is so visual
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> say again? link?
<jsgotangco> http://2005.guadec.org/travel/
<jsgotangco> just looking around the site hehe
<Burgundavia> oh I see
<Burgundavia> http://2005.guadec.org/
<Burgundavia> no canonical on the list
<mpt> but sabdfl's speaking
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> http://live.gnome.org/Stuttgart2005_2fFreeformSessions_2fDocs
<Burgundavia> ok, check out that
<jsgotangco> yelp maintainer
<mdke> interesting
<jsgotangco> reverse dns is not a bad idea
<mdke>  K E Y N O T E - Mark Shuttleworth, Canonical, Ltd.
* jsgotangco believes jdub will also crash the guadec party
<mdke> he is speaking too
<mdke> Project Topaz, Planning for 3.0, Jeff Waugh
<Burgundavia> "By night, he steals dreams from small children and sells their distilled energy to large multi-national corporations to fund his Free Software habit"
* mdke nods
<mdke> how young is Miguel de Icaza
<mdke> crazy shit
<Burgundavia> he wrote midnight commander at 19
<Burgundavia> I think he is 25ish
<Burgundavia> and quite wealthy
<jsgotangco> jeezz i feel old
* Burgundavia is 22
<mdke> very wealthy i'm thinking
<mdke> 23 here
<jsgotangco> i hate you both
<Burgundavia> froud is 37
<mdke> but then again i've never founded gnome
<jsgotangco> hah
<mdke> this guy is a joke too, he looks about 15
<mdke> http://www.nat.org/
<Burgundavia> he is other wealthy one
<Burgundavia> from ximian
<mdke> yup
<jsgotangco> its all about the opportunities available in your area
<mdke> jsgotangco, these kids are geniuses
<jsgotangco> yeah but without the right environment that's nothing
<mdke> jsgotangco, i guess they needed a computer yeah
<Burgundavia> shit, icaza is from mexico
<Burgundavia> not exactly europe/Us or Canada
<mdke> in my book they deserve every penny
<jsgotangco> hey look mono-project.com is in mediawiki
* jsgotangco grins
<mdke> hey they founded a great company through their computer abilities and sold it for a huge amount
<Burgundavia> novell bought ximian for the people
<Burgundavia> it bought suse to have a distro
<Burgundavia> observe all the suse people leaving
* jsgotangco remembers he has some novell magazines to read later
<jsgotangco> (its no different from reading an oracle magazine - good advertisting)
<mdke> ok i'm off
<mdke> back later
<jsgotangco> well see you around
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<mdke> what happened to the #ubuntu bot project? anything?
<Burgundavia> the runner died
<Burgundavia> and I don't have the interest/technical skills to resurrect it
* mdke nods
<Burgundavia> lol, hbd.com uses php
<mdke> hi there jiyuu0 
<jiyuu0> mdke, hi
<mdke> i noticed that marillat is still on ubuntuguide.org
<mdke> its not mentioned on http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RestrictedFormats anymore
<jiyuu0> yub... just finished the add-on-cd
<jiyuu0> and just came back from vacation
<jiyuu0> now unpacking...
<jiyuu0> just like step into house in less than 10 minutes ago
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> have fun?
<jiyuu0> yes... :)
<mdke> good
<jiyuu0> gotta run... brb :)
<mdke> k
<jiyuu0> need to unload stuff
<mdke> mpt, good stuff
<mdke> mpt, i think you should also include references to the current docteam book projects in your help page
<mdke> or perhaps they can be incorporated into the userguide
<mdke> (your categories i mean)
<mdke> hi froud 
<mdke> how was the conference?
<jjesse> ?
<mdke> hi jjesse 
<jjesse> hi mdke
<jjesse> hit the wrong windo :)
<mdke> *grins*
<jjesse> don't you hate that when that happens
<mdke> yep
<mdke> also typos in commands
<Burgundavia> mpt, around?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, have you seen monodoc?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> installing now
<jsgotangco> its nice it has a tree view and some navi tabs
<Burgundavia> looks like any other 2 paned help out there
* Burgundavia moves on
<jsgotangco> it works for me
<Burgundavia> yes, it works, but it is aimed at a very different audience to ours
<Kinnison> Morning
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<Kinnison> salut salaud, ca va?
<Burgundavia> bah
* Kinnison snuggles
<Kinnison> How's .ca then?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> seems the muine guy doesn't like my bug reports
<Burgundavia> he has rejected 2 as not a bug
<Burgundavia> but mvo loves the 25+ I have filed on synaptic
<Burgundavia> and my brother is now using Ubuntu
<Kinnison> Heh, my dad has been talking with mvo about update-manager
* mpt has been mocking up a beautiful package management interface
<Burgundavia> mpt, cool
<Burgundavia> I have been thinking about it too
<mpt> It's gonna need gtk trickery, though
<Burgundavia> did you get my email?
<mpt> about what?
<Burgundavia> the gnome bug
<mpt> what's muine?
<Burgundavia> music player
<Burgundavia> http://muine.gooeylinux.org/
<jsgotangco> i heard muine is going in main
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I doubt it
<mpt> Instead of Rhythmbox?
<Kinnison> rhythmbox is pants
<Kinnison> utter pants
<Kinnison> (IMHO)
<jsgotangco> why not if mono is going in main anyway
<jsgotangco> heh
<mpt> Is that why the screenshot is of Muine playing a song called "Elegy for rhythmbox"?
<jsgotangco> f-spot, blam, etc
<mpt> holy crap that's a lot of dependencies
<Burgundavia> rhythmbox is the default gnome music player
<mpt> yeah, and Epiphany's the default browser
<Burgundavia> rhythmbox is actually shipped by Ubuntu
<mpt> 45.3 MB of extra space for a music player
<mpt> rock
<Burgundavia> you don't have mono installed?
<Kinnison> mpt: dude, no mono?!
<Kinnison> mpt: tomboy dude! tomboy!
<Kinnison> stickywiki!
<mpt> eh?
<Kinnison> apt-cache show tomboy
<Burgundavia> he will have mono soon enough
<mpt> in about 5 minutes and 54 seconds
<Kinnison> *so* much better than the stickynotes applet
<Burgundavia> as breezy is shipping mono by default
<mpt> Kinnison: Oh, I thought those were all dialectal obscenities
<mpt> You were swearing at me for not having mono
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<Burgundavia> rofl
<Burgundavia> lmao
* Kinnison smiles
<Burgundavia> mono is the newest shit, straight from the heart of mormon country
<mpt> hah
* Burgundavia would like to remind listeners that Novell and SCO are about 100 miles apart
<jsgotangco> tomboy is so nice i want to cry
<Burgundavia> I really like tomboy, I have just never figured out how to make it work within my work flow
<jsgotangco> the answer to that is alt+f11
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Burgundavia> I think I need to move to the bottom panel, so I use it
* Kinnison has it sat next to the notification area
<Burgundavia> I also like blam
<Burgundavia> but I heard it is a mess internally
<jsgotangco> eh?
* Kinnison has never tried blam
* jsgotangco uses blam
<Burgundavia> tseng says it is a mess of c and c#
<mpt> I don't see any stickywiki in the repositories
<mpt> therefore it doesn't exist
<jsgotangco> no look for tomboy
<Burgundavia> mpt, I like your attitude, I wish more people would follow it
<Kinnison> mpt: stickywiki is just a way to describe tomboy :-)
<Kinnison> mpt: It's a cross between stickynotes and a personal wiki
<Burgundavia> then they wouldn't "enhance" their Ubuntu to the point of a bug repot
* mpt installs blam and tomboy
<Burgundavia> mpt, can yer look at that bug report?
<jsgotangco> try f-spot as well
<jsgotangco> heh
<mpt> Burgundavia: Well if we had packages that had obvious names, rather than names like "blam" and "tomboy" and "muine" (I mean, wtf, "muine"? it sounds like the name of a geriatric cat), then people would spend all day in the safe confines of universe crack and wouldn't feel the need to get crack elsewhere.
<Burgundavia> mpt, we just need to advertise what they do better, with metadata
<Burgundavia> so you can search for "music player" and get up muine, etc.
<mpt> Using metadata to work around bad names is like wearing a name badge every day that says "Hi, my name is Fred, but you can call me muine"
<mpt> Ok, I'm rambling
<Burgundavia> names are catchy
<Kinnison> perhaps, but then again, when there are N music players, you can't call them all 'music-player'
<mpt> Import
<Burgundavia> names are not a major issue
<mpt> Import From: /home/mpt
<mpt> how friendly
<Burgundavia> mpt, that is being worked on
<mpt> no progress feedback while importing
<mpt> the app appears to hang
<mpt> actually, no
<Burgundavia> eventually, import should happen in the background
<mpt> it does bring up a progress window, after about 20 seconds
<Burgundavia> hmm, that is odd, probably trying to parse a huge dir
<mpt> clicking "Edit Image" doesn't do anything except make the image shrink momentarily
<mpt> is that yet-to-be-implemented?
<Burgundavia> where is this edit image you speak of?
<mpt> in the toolbar
<Burgundavia> for muine?
<mpt> no, f-spot
<mpt> ohhh, you thought I was talking about muine the whole time
<mpt> sorry
<mpt> a big bass clef, how ... interesting
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> f-spot is very new
<Burgundavia> 0.0.13 I think, never used it
<Burgundavia> cool, with muine you can drag an image to the bass clef on the interface and have that image for the album
<mpt> What's the /dev/thingy for a CD drive?
<Burgundavia> why?
<mpt> I need to pmount it every time because of a bug
<Kinnison> depends on your drive normally
<Burgundavia> does f-spot not just see it?
<mpt> No, I'm in Muine now
<Burgundavia> muine only plays ripped stuff
<Burgundavia> not internet radio
<Burgundavia> no cds
<mpt> oh, for goodness sake
<mpt> I bet it doesn't even rip the songs it expects you to have ripped, does it
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> that is sound juicers job
<mpt> haha
<Burgundavia> muine is not very everybody
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<Burgundavia> but what it does, it does very well
<mpt> Someone should get the programmers of Sound Juicer and Rhythmbox and Muine and CD Player and lock them in a room and not let them out until they have a single codebase
<mpt> Give them as much pizza as they want
<mpt> and pillows, so they can have pillowfights about which language to code in
<Burgundavia> muine is c#, and thus will never get into gnome
<Burgundavia> cd player is about to use the code base of sound juicer, but a different UI
<Kinnison> give them all enough crack to smoke that they realise the right way is dbus love
<Kinnison> A single unified UI onto dbus discoverable audio magic
<jsgotangco> dbus yeahhh
<Burgundavia> they should have interconnections, so if I am listening to a cd, I can click rip and it opens sj
<mpt> That's still showing me a completely separate UI for the *same* tracks
<Burgundavia> but ripping is different activity than listening
<Burgundavia> if the UI
<Burgundavia> s look similar, then it is not an issue
<mpt> That's like having one word processor for doing writing, another word processor for mail merges, and another for printing
<Burgundavia> not really
<mpt> That's why menus were invented
<Burgundavia> it is like having GIMP for editing
<Burgundavia> and f-spot for viewing
<Kinnison> mpt: No, it's like having a wordprocessor for writing letters, and a spreadsheet for doing spreadsheets
<mpt> Kinnison: No, WP documents and spreadsheets are not just different file formats, they're different things
<Burgundavia> they should interconnect, but show seperate but similar UI's for different tasks
<mpt> Music is music
* jsgotangco starts up amaroK
<mpt> Now I understand why LSongs was developed
<Kinnison> mpt: so I should start using OpenOffice to edit my python programs. After all they're both text
<mpt> Kinnison: WP documents and programming code are different things too
<mpt> of course it's a matter of definition
<Kinnison> indeed. I prefer separated UIs for different tasks
<Burgundavia> music should be treated equally, but we rip very rarely and listen often
<Kinnison> even if they're fundamentally manipulating similar concepts
<Burgundavia> thus the ripping functions should be moved to something else
<Burgundavia> rb is basically itunes
<mpt> But yeah, I would like to be able to double-click on a picture, have it open in a viewer, then click an "Edit" button and the toolbox appears
<mpt> That would be nifty
<Burgundavia> yes, that would be cool
<Burgundavia> that is what a ripping app should do as well
<Burgundavia> with a cd in
<Burgundavia> have UI that pops up ony when you want to rip
<jsgotangco> hello froud 
<mkde> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hello
<mkde> hows it going?
<Burgundavia> we are discussing little people in computers
<mkde> computer gnomes?
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<mkde> bye jsgotangco
<mpt> mmm, gnomes
* mpt investigates XHTML Basic as a help format
<mkde> strange business this [fr]  stuff on the list
<mkde> wb froud
<froud> Hi dude
<froud> well first day of th efirst ever LinuxWorld in CO.ZA is over and so are my feet
<froud> busy, lots of action, could have been more visitors, but then most people are still at work
<froud> As usual the TSF freedom toaster was hard pressed to keep up with demand and the queue to burn CD's was long
<froud> sabdfl gave was sounded like a good speach http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/software/2005/0505171134.asp?A=LIN&S=Open%20Source&O=E&CiRestriction=
<froud> An maddog took the time to wander through the booths meeting and chatting with everyone
<froud> That dude is just like so cool, people everywhere liked him
<froud> As for us we all just had fun and managed to pickup 16 unprotected wireless networks that gave the Linux User Group stands free Internet access for the day :-)
<froud> Tomorrow, feet willing, we will report more
<froud> somebody tell sabfl that he needs a hair cut, please :-)
<k31th> alright guys 
<k31th> hope to do some more work on the admin docs tonight 
<k31th> sorry if i havent surfaced for a while 
<mdke> hi there froud-away 
<mdke> we enrico 
<enrico> hi
<mdke> how are you?
<enrico> mdke: kind of tired
<mdke> enrico, sorry to hear that
<enrico> mdke: busy day
* mdke nods
<mdke> enrico, allora vatti curca
<enrico> mdke: well, not a bad plan: I'll be in bed quite soon
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> time for bed here too
<mdke> how is your job?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-25
<mdke> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> good night all
<Kinnison> Hihi burgey!
<mpt> Burgundavia: Ok, suggest some unauthenticated crack I should isntall to see this authentication alert (I assume that's the alert you're talking about)
<Burgundavia> not that one
<mpt> ok, how do I get it
<Burgundavia> the settings--repo-->authentication one
<Burgundavia> the first one is also too verbose
<mpt> I don't even understand what that dialog is for
<mpt> though I do know that I can open five copies of it at once, which shouldn't be possible.
<Burgundavia> I can't on breezy
<Burgundavia> mpt, did you see what I wanted to change the string at the top too?
<mpt> Yes, I did, but I still don't understand what the dialog is for.
<mpt> *How* does it help me check software integrity?
<mpt> What happens if the software isn't integr... um, good?
<Burgundavia> verifies that what you have downloaded is from a trusted source
<Burgundavia> and hasn't been modified between the trusted source and you
<mpt> So how does one acquire such keys?
<mpt> I guess the keys for the Hoary repositories were supplied on the Hoary CD
<mpt> but how would I get one when adding another repository?
<Burgundavia> you need to add them manually :(
<mpt> So you'd find them on a Web page or something?
<Burgundavia> you find them with the repo
<mpt> "with"?
<mpt> Where would you find a repository?
<Burgundavia> on the webpage that lists the repo
<Burgundavia> basically, there is no reason why a user would need to add anything but the backports repo
<mpt> ok.
<mpt> Results of baz undo -n:
<mpt> These files would be source but lack inventory ids (`baz add' perhaps?):
<mpt> database/schema/patch-14-09-0.sql
<mpt> These explicit ids have no corresponding file:
<mpt> database/schema/archive/.arch-ids/patch-14-09-0.sql.id
<mpt> whoops, wrong channel
<Burgundavia> ok then, was wondering what happened
<mpt> heh
<mpt> but you can't add a repository other than the three in the menu anyway!
<mpt> so why does that dialog exist?
<Burgundavia> say again?
<mpt> When I click "Add", I get a dialog containing an option menu with only three choices
<mpt> Ubuntu 5.04 "Hoary Hedgehog", Ubuntu 5.04 Security Updates, and Ubuntu 5.04 Updates.
* mpt wishes Synaptic dialogs wouldn't keep disappearing every time he switches to another window
<mpt> So I can't add any other repositories.
<mpt> Burgundavia: I was going to suggest: "If you use other repositories, you should add their public keys here, so Synaptic can ensure software it downloads from them hasn't been tampered with."
<mpt> But if you can't add other repositories in the first place, there's not much point :-)
<mpt> yay, and now a few of the disappearing windows are behind all my other windows and won't come to the front, the Repositories dialog refuses to close
<Burgundavia> mpt, you can, but you shouldn't
<Burgundavia> you can also add custom
<Burgundavia> bascially, that dialog needs to be reworked
<mpt> Oh, I didn't see that, because "Custom" didn't end in "..."
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> gyaahhh community council meeting is 6am in my time
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> CarlK, suggestions for documentation?
<mdke> jsgotangco, you'll have to get up early :p
<mdke> CarlK, suggestions for documentation are not too late, you can post them to the docteam list ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<mdke> have a nice day all, i'm off to school
<jsgotangco> helllooo docbook junkies!
<Burgundavia> salut all
<Burgundavia> mpt, ping
<mpt> pong
<mpt> @#$%! gtk focus model
<Burgundavia> mpt, check your inbox
<Burgundavia> didn't think you were going to be up, so I emailed you a link
<mpt> awwwww
<mpt> WordPress 1.2! That person needs to install security updates, stat
<mpt> thanks for the link
<Burgundavia> np, I like to filter news to people who need it
<Burgundavia> as I am a news junkie
<jsgotangco> what the
<jsgotangco> http://www.sakakibara-kikai.co.jp/
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<jsgotangco> real life mech warrior
<jsgotangco> http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/index.php?p=545
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, hate to burst your bubble, but it doesn't actually walk
<jsgotangco> heh who cares its got rubber bullets
<Burgundavia> yes
* Burgundavia sighs at the local election results
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, http://www.dailygame.net/news/archives/004062.php
* Kinnison yawns and stretches
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison
<Kinnison> hi burgey
<Burgundavia> oh, is early there
<Burgundavia> I thought it was rather late, then I looked at the clock
<Kinnison> s'not early
<Kinnison> 'tis 10am and I've been going for a while now
<Burgundavia> tis sam and I've been going for a while now 
<Burgundavia> tis 2am and I've been going for a while now 
<Kinnison> Aye, but you're a freak :-) (of the nicest kind)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> and unemployed
<Burgundavia> wow 
<Burgundavia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4555373.stm
* Kinnison was awake at 2am also, but that's 'cos I was in bed reading a book
<Burgundavia> and what did you partner say to that?
<Burgundavia> ick! ads on your mobile http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4556833.stm
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: erm, well when he came to bed he said "Find a stopping place" and conveniently I was one paragraph away from a chapter boundary
<Burgundavia> ah
<BeerDump> gyahh
<BeerDump> power failure
<BeerDump> its raining so hard here
<BeerDump> Burgy, we do have lpg powered vehicles for quite some time
<BeerDump> even natural gas
<Burgundavia> yes, but mandating it?
<Burgundavia> no western country is that bold
<Burgundavia> too many soccer moms with their SUV;s
* Kinnison 's main issue with LPG is it makes the vehicle sound like a bus
<BeerDump> 3G advertisments ewww
* BeerDump is tired of sms spam as well
<Burgundavia> I have never seen a non-gas/diesel vehicle
<BeerDump> even electric?
<Burgundavia> well, I have seen one electric and several hybrid
<Burgundavia> but the former was not a car that somebody owned
<BeerDump> some of the bus here are natural gas i think they are going to mandate it
<Burgundavia> basically, there are some non gas/diesel, but they are very very few
<BeerDump> because we have so much supply of natural gas down south
<Burgundavia> BeerDump, where are you?
<BeerDump> its me jsgotangco
<Burgundavia> ah
<BeerDump> we just had a power failure
<Burgundavia> ok
<BeerDump> its raining hard
<Burgundavia> ah, tropical rain
<Burgundavia> doesn't rain like that here
<BeerDump> i think summer is about to end here
<BeerDump> its been so humid lately
<BeerDump> and raining hard in the afternoon
<BeerDump> the heat i can manage but not the humidty
<BeerDump> taking a bath twice a day is still not enough
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, creating a deb package isnt that hard
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no it is not, but there are many different ways of configuring an already created one
<Burgundavia> I basically ran into a wall and couldn't get past it
<Burgundavia> I think I was failing to grasp some simple concept
<jsgotangco> ahhh thats true
<Burgundavia> thus I make a perfect candidate for tsengs thing, as I know a little big about it, but existing tutorials have failed me
<Burgundavia> once I figue it out, basically I want to crank out packages with .desktop files
<jsgotangco> PackagingSystemDocumentation?
<Burgundavia> no, IntroDeveloperDocs
<jsgotangco> ah
<Burgundavia> I want a AddingADesktopFile doc
<jsgotangco> Unfrgiven is supposed to make a draft
<Burgundavia> yes, tseng is going to work on it once mono hits main, from what i understand
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> ok bye bye
<mkde> hi all
<mkde> jiyuu0, ping?
<jiyuu0> mkde, pong
<jiyuu0> just read ur mail too
<mkde> jiyuu0, hiya, i just sent a second one
<jiyuu0> i think it would be best that the new adaption be for breezy guide
* jiyuu0 checkin
<jiyuu0> at least others who had translated 60% won't have to start again
<mkde> it will be possible to import the translations which have already started
<jiyuu0> http://launchpad.ubuntu.com/Rosetta
<jiyuu0> is down
<mkde> oh yeah
<jiyuu0> is that the sample site?
<mkde> no its being used to translate all of Ubuntu's programs at the moment, and also some of our documentation
<mkde> jiyuu0, sorry i got the link wrong. its http://launchpad.ubuntu.com/rosetta
<mkde> jiyuu0, its possible that the people currently translating the guide are using .pot files already
<mkde> jiyuu0, do you think its worth testing?
<jiyuu0> nope... cause i ask em to follow the guide's format
<jiyuu0> mkde, i would but don't think have extra time to burn
<mkde> jiyuu0, the format would be maintained
<jiyuu0> that's why... maybe could test now... and decide whether should port for the next ubuntu guide
<mkde> jiyuu0, ok i'll test and we can see how it goes, no pressure
<jiyuu0> ok thanks...
<jiyuu0> haven slept yet
<jiyuu0> since yesterday 
<mkde> lol
<jiyuu0> and starwars is at 11pm
<jiyuu0> noe 10pm
<jiyuu0> hehe
<jiyuu0> i'm sure i can concentrate or not
<mkde> you seeing the first show?
<jiyuu0> yub
<mkde> awesome
<jiyuu0> 3rd row from screen
<jiyuu0> ok... gotta take bath then going to cinema... c'ya
<mkde> have a great one
<jiyuu0> :)
<mkde> hi
<mkde> anyone ever done an html2pot before?
<mkde> i guess it should be similar to xml2pot...
<mkde> getting a bunch of weird messages
<abelli> jiyuu0: ciao
<mattheweast> abelli, e' andato a vedersi star wars... ;)
<mattheweast> _froud_, here?
<abelli> mako: tanto per parlare italiano .. gli scrivero' una lettera minatoria.
<mkde> ?
<abelli> mkde: "to" + "send" + "somebody" + "an" + "email" .. 
<mkde> but who
<mkde> maybe i came into the channel late
<abelli> 18:56 < mattheweast> abelli, e' andato a vedersi star wars... ;)
<abelli> May what im trying to tell you be with you.
<mkde> ahhh
<mkde> heh
<mkde> got it now
* mkde watches the simpsons
<mkde> this is the best episode
<jjesse> which episode is it
<mkde> mr burns gets fined for disposing radioactive waste. "That'll be 3 million dollars" "smithers, my wallet's in my right front pocket. While I'm here, I'll take that statue of justice." "Sold!"
<jjesse> grin i love that one
<jjesse> is that latter on that he makes lilttle lisa slury or whatever it is?
<mkde> not sure, its the monorail one
<jjesse> the mono rail song is one my favorite simpson songs :)
<jjesse> besides of course the sanitation man
<mkde> LD
<mkde> :D
<abelli> ciao, im off to something, ciao
<mkde> _froud_, wb
<jjesse> ?
<jjesse> hello froud
<froud> jjesse: hi
<froud> wat's up
<jjesse> fixing problems w/ my internet router
<froud> my router is a linux box, zero to fix :-)
<froud> I am dead on my feet
<froud> boy linuxworld was busy today
<jjesse> well had to restart my router for some reason
<jjesse> did you have a good time?
<froud> absolutelym we are having a ball
<mdke> yo froud
<froud> yo
<mdke> i'm struggling with trying to get html converted to .pot
<froud> ok
<mdke> have used 4 different converters without success so far
<froud> ok :-)
<froud> what html ar eyou converting
<mdke> is it correct that an xhtml compliant html document should be converted with xml2pot?
<jjesse> the html in the wiki right mdke?
<froud> no
<mdke> froud, the unofficial ubuntu quickguide
<mdke> froud, damn, seb128 and sladen told me it would work
<froud> thats xhtml
<froud> is it strict or transitional xhtml
<mdke> froud, good question
<mdke> lemme check
<mdke> transitional
<froud> good luck then :-) it will be a bitch
<mdke> shit
<froud> why do you want a pot of that
<mdke> was thinking of trying to get it translated via rosetta rather than by hand
<mdke> you'll see the thread on the ML
<froud> yeah would be nice
<mdke> is there a transitional->strict converter tool?
<froud> tired have not touch my mail yet
<froud> no
<mdke> froud, btw there is a html2pot script written from the xml2pot tool, but it didn't work, i've mailed the maintainer
<froud> you may try to run tidy on it first
<froud> then validate the result agianst the strict dtd
<froud> then fix all problems
<froud> yes I know html2pot
<mdke> the html2pot script had a problem with "duplicate message definition"
<mdke> http://pastebin.ca/12056
<mdke> otherwise it was running fine for about 30 seconds
<froud> :-) invalid against the dtd, the file violaits the rules
<froud> sort the violations
<mdke> right, that is because it is transitional?
<froud> and then it should run
<froud> hard to say, transitional is very lax
<froud> your best bet is to get it to strict 
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i guess that will be hard huh?
<froud> then the doc is valid and wellformed against the strict dtd so it is xml
<froud> it's not an easy process, carries overhead
<froud> Hmmm I see people playing with all sorts of stuff
<froud> well I guess they will just have to try it and learn
<mdke> what about?
<froud> not being funny now, but the problems are not new
<mdke> what is it you're talking about?
<froud> many people, have trie dto solve these problems and none have suceded
<mdke> you mean the html2pot problems?
<froud> the best you can hope for is a partial transformation
<froud> then the restyou must do by hand
<froud> yes
* mdke nods
<froud> and the wiki to xml
<mdke> ah i'm not involved in that
<froud> mdke: people dont know but the docbook devel comminity is large
<mdke> i just thought it would be cool to use rosetta for the ubuntuguide
<mdke> froud, ok
<froud> there are many industry experts in that devel team
<froud> if they dont have solutions, why do we think we can suddenly make them
<mdke> froud, hey listen, i don't think anything, i was just experimenting to see if it was possible, that's all
<froud> that is why I say let them try and then learn
<froud> sure
<froud> not being personal 
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> if you think jeff is on a wild goose chase I think you should perhaps say so
<froud> ubuntuguide needs to be done in svn
<mdke> froud, that would be cool
<mdke> froud, but as you say, it needs to be ported by hand
<froud> but the owner has not commit to working in svn and the src is still closed to us
<froud> we have the warty version in svn
<froud> we ported it by hand
<mdke> froud, i'll speak to him again, but we can't force people to do stuff
<froud> it would be nice if somebody would update it to hoary
<froud> no we cant
<froud> however
<froud> as I see it
<froud> if the person does not open the code for easy collaboration, then why would I put energy into helping
<mdke> ok
<froud> it is admirable that people are actually trying to create a solution on a doc that is not open source
<mdke> froud, depends how you define open source ;)
<froud> says much for the open source community
* mdke clicks View -> View Source
<mdke> as i say, it would be nice if he would work with us, but we can't force him
<froud> sure, you can see it but you cant change it on ubuntuguide.org
<froud> practicallyevery web site in the world can be seen in src
<mdke> quite
<froud> but that does not make it FOSS
<mdke> i know
<froud> his use of the license is also wrong
<mdke> we can only tell him
<froud> mdke: corey did a very good of of doing that
<froud> we even got him to checkout the svn stuff
<froud> anyway, I am dead beat and now off to bed
<mdke> ok cool
<jjesse> have a good lseep
<jjesse> sleep
<mdke> glad the conference is going well
<froud> I think the direction is clear, focus on User Guide and the books in svn
<froud> yes, excellent
<froud> ok dudes chow
<mdke> ciao
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-26
<mdke> enrico, sera
<mdke> enrico, you know a way of converting transitional to strict xhtml by any chance?
<mdke> hi mpt 
<enrico> mdke: ciao.  transitional to strict? uhm... I'd go by changing the DOCTYPE at the beginning and fixing the errors reported by the w3c validator by hand :)
* mdke nods
<mdke> enrico, thanks
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> Errors:  	3
<mdke> :)))
<enrico> not too bad
<mdke> not at all
<mdke> haven't a clue how to fix it, but i'm sure someone on the list will know
<jsgotangco> hello
<Burgundavia> slut
<jsgotangco> slut?
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> are UI issues considered "bugs"?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> which package?
<jsgotangco> no just looking at your bug report
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, if it doesn't work perfectly for you, it is a bug
<Burgundavia> my mantra is, if it smells like a bug, it is a bug
<jsgotangco> ok so bad UI are bugs then
<Burgundavia> yes
* jsgotangco starts filling up heh
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that would also be my bug reportS
<jsgotangco> jdub, hah nice portrait
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, where?
<mpt> hi mdke
<jsgotangco> http://www.slug.org.au/gallery/edexpo05
<mpt> (8 hours late, but who's counting)
<jsgotangco> http://www.slug.org.au/gallery/edexpo05/aba
<jsgotangco> hi froud
<jsgotangco> hello mdke 
<mkde> hi jsgotangco
<mkde> hows it going?
<jsgotangco> http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com
<mkde> cute ;)
<jsgotangco> badger dance heh
<mkde> no audio on these pcs, does it have audio?
<jsgotangco> accc no audio in your flash?
<jsgotangco> GGRRR
<mkde> no audio on the pc at all
<jsgotangco> sudo ln -s /usr/lib/libesd.so.0 /usr/lib/libesd.so.1
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> i thought just flash
<mkde> no sound card
<jsgotangco> jdub, loves this badger dance
<mkde> they are cute
<jsgotangco> it doesnt end
<mkde> did you make it?
<jsgotangco> hah no
<jsgotangco> jdub, you know who did this badger dance flash?
<mkde> brb
<jsgotangco> bye all
<mkde> grrrrrrrr
<mkde> still can't get the ubuntuguide to a .pot
<mkde> can strict xhtml be converted to xml?
<mpt> Strict XHTML *is* XML
<mpt> Any kind of XHTML is XML
<mkde> hmmm
<mkde> mpt, the xml to pot converters i've tried don't work on this xhtml file i have
<mpt> Have you validated the XHTML?
<mkde> yes
<mkde> it validated as transition xhtml
<mkde> al
<mkde> i have a strict version as well that one of the guys on the list did
<mkde> mpt, i tried xml2pot, and I found a derived project called html2pot. I mailed the author trying to debug it, and mentioned to him that xml2pot did not work: he said this was normal as the xml converter would not work on xhtml
<mkde> hence me thinking there was a distinction
<mpt> Then is it expecting a particular application of xml?
<mkde> hmmm
<mkde> mpt, possibly, i don't know
<mpt> XML = {XHTML, SVG, Atom, other applications...}
<mkde> i see
* mpt doesn't want to see what a POT made from an SVG file looks like
<mkde> hmmm
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-27
<mdke> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi Burgundavia 
<mdke> how are you?
<Burgundavia> not bad, yourself
<Burgundavia> seeing the fun you are having with the html stuff
<Burgundavia> thanks for doing all that
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> the guy who wrote the html2pot script has identified 4 bugs in his script as a result
<Burgundavia> this is a good thing --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4563505.stm
<mdke> he's fixed some of them and sent me a pot file :D
<mdke> yeah definitely
<mdke> sends good messages to both sides
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/wlg/7106
<jsgotangco> hello
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<froud> hi corey
<froud> my bones ache ths morning, that goodness we have the last day today
<froud> Got the opportunity to see maddog in action yesterday
<froud> two win boys come to my stand and tell me how FOSS cant work
<froud> so after about 20min explaining
<froud> I see maddog take a seat at the IBM stand bnext door
<froud> I greab these two guys and take them over to maddog
<froud> explain the situation
<froud> stand back andlisten and learn
<froud> boy, those guys had no clue who they were talking to
<froud> they got quite a shock when they found out
<froud> who maddog is
<froud> he explained why FOSS works in a very calm way
<froud> and finally the two left with much to think about :-)
<froud> sabfl was there in the morning, get his face on TV, again. He looks good under camera lights :-)
<froud> third day in a row the TSF freedom toaster could not cope with the number of people wanting to burn a distro
<froud> one disto has given away over 3500 CDs in three days
<froud> I dont know how many the TSF freedom toaster burnt, but it is wll over a few thousand
<froud> well, this is froud, reporting for #ubuntu-doc on the first LinuxWorld in South Africa. C ya and have fun
<jsgotangco> anyone have an idea on what collabnet runs on?
<Burgundavia> founded by the apache guy, so it is probably apache
<Burgundavia> runs linux
<jsgotangco> im looking at the OOo files listing
<Kinnison> Hi guys
<jsgotangco> Kinnison, hi how's friday
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: Not bad thanks. A little tiring as days go, but there's always the heady promise of a sleep-in tomorrow morning
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<jsgotangco> a dumb question: do i have to edit xorg.conf to force resolution mode since i am stuck in 640x480
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> gah, so many misinformed people on the forums
<mdke> Burgundavia, so little time...
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> I think I can enlighten some on the breezy forum
<Burgundavia> that is my primary target
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> you guys reckon a quickguide is good if it had quick how tos?
<mdke> i think howtos need to be structured by content
<mdke> in terms of organisation
<jsgotangco> ok not full blow howtos, just snippets
<mdke> not sure really
<mdke> i think it is cool if the quickguide refers to the individual help for a program
<jsgotangco> yeah its quite long though
<Burgundavia> woot!!!!!!
<Burgundavia> gnome-panel 2.11 just went into breezy
<Burgundavia> we can now edit menus without a new tool!!!!!
<mdke> if you run breezy you can ;)
<mdke> good news tho
<mdke> glad they've fixed it already
<jsgotangco> w00t
<jsgotangco> superb
<mdke> oh yeah
* mdke checks email
<mdke> bug 5471
<Burgundavia> mdke, you also subscribed to all of bugzilla.u.c?
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> not by any means
<mdke> you crazy man
* Burgundavia also follows breezy-changes
<Burgundavia> and ubuntu-devel
<Burgundavia> and -doc
<Burgundavia> I don't follow -users
<Burgundavia> just subscribed to sounder
<jsgotangco> i just get breezy digest
<Burgundavia> bah, digest
<Burgundavia> you need crack of minute
<jsgotangco> bah try that on a 1024x768 laptop
* Burgundavia has always on, non-metered broadband, and a 1280X1024 screen, with gmail
<mdke> Burgundavia, btw gmail is still quoting the entire of previous messages in your posts
<jsgotangco> i should move in a developed country soon
<Burgundavia> mdke, gah, stupid gmail
<mdke> *grins*
<Burgundavia> I don't see the quote, as it hides it by default
<Burgundavia> very nice for me
<mdke> Burgundavia, how come you don't use a client?
<mdke> out of interest
<Burgundavia> gmail is faster than evo
<Burgundavia> and better
<Burgundavia> and accessible from any location with internet access
<mdke> gmail doesn't do reply to list
<Burgundavia> yes, minor bug
<jsgotangco> gmail is a bug by itself
<mdke> or show quotes
* Burgundavia is waiting for hula to mature, before he jumps
<mdke> i don't think its ideal for mailing lists
<mdke> but it does pop ;)
<Burgundavia> its speed and power make it very nice for managing mail
<jsgotangco> its good for email conversations, not lists though
* mdke nods
<Burgundavia> threading is very very nice
<mdke> evolution does threading
<mdke> i use it
<Burgundavia> makes reading email a whole lot easier
<mdke> most clients will do threading surely
<Burgundavia> thunderbird doesn't
<Burgundavia> by default
<mdke> well nor does evo by default
<mdke> only takes 2 clicks tho
<mdke> also i find the lack of a reply all button in gmail strangely disturbing
<Burgundavia> there is one
<mdke> i can only see reply and forward
<mdke> ah there it is
<mdke> "more options"
<mdke> btw corey i don't get the quotes hidden in my replies, i must have accidentally turned it off, not sure how tho
<Burgundavia> mdke, hmm, ya, I haven't playing with any settings
<mdke> couldn't see it in the settings
<mdke> maybe the first time you switch it off, it remembers it
* jsgotangco uses thunderbird for gmail
<jsgotangco> very nice thread support
<jsgotangco> evolution doesn't play well with s/mime though
<jsgotangco> but no problems with gpg
<jsgotangco> thunderbird, well has enigmail which i really like
<Burgundavia> gmail has no pgp/gpg stuff, which hula will have
<jsgotangco> yeah but where are you putting your hula by then
<Burgundavia> on my own serer
<Burgundavia> server, even
<Burgundavia> I have a spare box currently doing nothing
<mdke> is hula a webmail server?
<jsgotangco> its a groupware server
<jsgotangco> not technically groupware though
<jsgotangco> but calendar and mail focused
<mdke> does it do webmail?
<jsgotangco> it does
<mdke> cool
<mdke> is it any good?
<mdke> its gnome related isn't it?
<jsgotangco> i think its usable now, the client does pgp in javascript
<Burgundavia> well, our federal gov lives to rule another day, it seems
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that also means you have to trust your key to gmail, no thanks
<jsgotangco> i like keeping my own key
<Burgundavia> so do I
* jsgotangco wonders if gmail would offer key generation in their servers soon
<Burgundavia> trust a key generated on a machine I don't control?
<Burgundavia> are you mad?
<jsgotangco> they can do that if they want to and people would say cool
<Burgundavia> people are sheep
<jsgotangco> i've denied assuring some people on CAs since they have no idea how to use it 
<mdke> Burgundavia, has the firefox hoary update been done yet do you know?
<jsgotangco> in hoary?
<Burgundavia> mdke, don't think so
<mdke> i wonder why
<jsgotangco> mdke, security patch?
<mdke> do they have enough people working on security?
<Burgundavia> they have one
<mdke> i know
* mdke considers petitioning canonical for a second
<mdke> people in -it are really whinghing
<mdke> apparently lots of big companies have been advised not to use ff until it is updated
<mdke> and also i think the mozilla website is out of commission to some extent
<jsgotangco> patches are backported
<mdke> jsgotangco, what does that mean?
<jsgotangco> you don't need to update the whole ff to put a patch
<Burgundavia> means pitti takes a look at the security patch and applies it to our version of ff
<mdke> yeah i appreciate that
<jsgotangco> our ff may stay at v1.02 but it doesnt mean that its not patched
<mdke> i was thinking, has it been patched
<jsgotangco> well im sure my ff was patched a few days ago
<Burgundavia> I think they should backport ff regardless
<Burgundavia> as it is such an important app
<mdke> jsgotangco, i think that was another one
<Burgundavia> there was a patch to .3 level
<Burgundavia> and a patch to .4 level'
<mdke> ok so it has been done
<Burgundavia> but the 2nd one may not have been done yet
<jsgotangco> you know a way to check?
<Burgundavia> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20
<mdke> Burgundavia, apparently the mozilla site only permits browsing if you're using 1.0.4, does patching resolve that problem?
<Burgundavia> security announcements
<Burgundavia> mdke, not yet, but you can change the browser string
<mdke> Burgundavia, so it will?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> no idea where
<Burgundavia> currently ubuntu ff is patched to .3 level, it appears
<jsgotangco> yeah i think its only .3
<mdke> ok i PMed pitti
<mdke> seems he was unaware of the mozilla.org issue
<Burgundavia> lol http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-May/029583.html
<Burgundavia> that is odd
* Burgundavia recently discovered his old data backup from his palm
<jsgotangco> i wonder if jpilot can recover that
<Burgundavia> gpilot can
<Burgundavia> what is jpilot?
<jsgotangco> its similar to palm desktop (the old one though)
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> cool, we need something basic for breezy
<jsgotangco> yeah the spec should be reviewed first though but i want to jump the gun on collecting data
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> this shouldnt be that difficult (i hope)
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> well im going ahead we're watching a movie later
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> star wars, you bastard
<jsgotangco> heck get out once in a while and stay in your own timezone
<mdke> Burgundavia, whats up with star wars?
<mdke> its out everywhere by now surely
<Burgundavia> it is, but I haven't seen it yet
<mdke> me neither
<mdke> going today i think
<Burgundavia> I think I will as well
<mdke> hi jiyuu0 
<jiyuu0> mdke, yes :)
<jiyuu0> X just crashed on breezy dist-upgrade
<jiyuu0> lucky was on a test machine
<mdke> breezy = test
<mdke> jiyuu0, just a thought: i was reading that translation thread
<jiyuu0> breezy = crash
<mdke> jiyuu0, what do you think about people that say "can i translate the guide? sorry my english is bad"
<mdke> we've had some problems in the italian team with translations which are totally wrong ;)
<jiyuu0> there's another thread on lookin for maintainer for amd64+ppc
<mdke> for the guide?
<jiyuu0> yes
<mdke> cool
<mdke> anyway, answer my question ;)
<jiyuu0>  "can i translate the guide? sorry my english is bad" maybe some one can proof read it
<mdke> yeah
<jiyuu0> there are currently 13 (i think) translators
<mdke> apart from the fact that i think its a waste of time to do 2 portuguese guides, but that is up to him
<jiyuu0> portuguese + brazil portuguese
<mdke> yes
<jiyuu0> well... if he wants
<mdke> sure, its up to him
<jiyuu0> true
<mdke> jiyuu0, the great thing about getting the guide in rosetta would be that people can collaborate on translations, so check each others translations and work at the same time
<mdke> jiyuu0, i've been working on the html2pot process a bit more
<mdke> jiyuu0, so far, haven't got it working well :/
<jiyuu0> i read it in the mailing list
<mdke> i will write to the list later updating on what i've done since then
<jiyuu0> cool
<mdke> jiyuu0, the html2pot maintainer has been working on it ;)
<mdke> he's fixed like 6 bugs in his script so far
<jiyuu0> great
<mdke> jiyuu0, if only the guide was in xml...
<mdke> it would be easy
<mdke> i don't know why there is a distinction, but there seems to be one
<jiyuu0> too bad no xml knowledge back then
<jiyuu0> else could have started with that
<mdke> maybe future versions?
<jiyuu0> yub
<mdke> jiyuu0, that would be great
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i have to go now
<jiyuu0> if the rosetta thing is good... will work on it for breezy
<jiyuu0> ok
<jiyuu0> c'ya
<jiyuu0> :)
<mdke> my turn to see star wars ;)
<jiyuu0> hehe
<jiyuu0> spoiler: anakin turned to darth vader
<jiyuu0> :)
* mdke slaps jiyuu0 
<mdke> :p
<jiyuu0> hehe
<mdke> ok cya
<jiyuu0> c'ya
<jiyuu0> may the force be wif u
<k31th> lol
<k31th> yeah i seen that two night ago
<k31th> was awsome
<k31th> anyone got mozilla suite
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-28
<mdke> night all
<Burgundavia> mdke, ping
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<froud> Burgundavia: wat's up
<Burgundavia> not much
<Burgundavia> about to crash, tired
<Burgundavia> had a party here tonight
<Burgundavia> also working with the london law people to improve the interface
<froud> party law
<froud> ?? what interface
<froud> lost
<Burgundavia> this game
<Burgundavia> http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~pelzlpj/londonlaw/
<froud> ooo ok, nice one dude :-) you got your work cut outthen
<Burgundavia> yes, is wxwidgets
<Burgundavia> which I am told should link to gtk
<Burgundavia> but isn't
<froud> what's the daling code fo rthe UK?
<froud> dialing
<Burgundavia> no idea off hand
<froud> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/dialingcodes.html?p1=111&p2=136&number=
<froud> :-) google finds everything
* mdke winks at froud 
<mdke> sorry for thinking you were someone else
<Burgundavia> mdke, you have an open bug on malone
<mdke> Burgundavia, ok
<mdke> Burgundavia, as in, one i filed?
<froud> mdke: no worries
<mdke> froud, *grins*
<mdke> i'm bad with my country codes
<Burgundavia> mdke, wondering if it was still relevant
<froud> hope I did not wake you from a beauty sleep
<mdke> my alarm went off as i put the phone down
<froud> we decided we will bo see the 12 show
<froud> how long is the movie
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> fairly long?
<froud> how long is fairly
<froud> 3 4
<mdke> i'll check
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> not too bad
<mdke> 120 minutes
<froud> short
<mdke> yeah
<froud> ok so if we are an hour ahead
<mdke> Burgundavia, which one are you on about? there are maybe 3 or 4
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<mdke> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/gulliver666/+bugs
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/268
<froud> mdke: Ok catch you later
<mdke> froud, i'll email henrik to say you will be free from 3 or 4pm our time
<mdke> Burgundavia, right ok
<froud> sure that sounds good
<Burgundavia> mdke, just clearing out old bugs on malone
<mdke> froud, or sunday right?
<froud> mdke: or sunday is great
<mdke> Burgundavia, ok i'll make a note of testing it and reposting
<froud> bye
<mdke> bye
<Burgundavia> mdke, and can you push the bug upstream if it still exists, with an example file
<Burgundavia> or email me and make me do that
<mdke> yep
<mdke> np
<Burgundavia> cheers
<mdke> ok i'm gonna get going
<mdke> see you later
<k31th_> Morning 
<k31th_> ahh my name
<Burgundavia> salut
<k31th> man i wanna get some docs done today 
<k31th> since i started coming in here iv not done much tbh 
<k31th> im gonna tidy up sort out my tax forms and get cracking 
<k31th> if starwars does not get in the way
<k31th> how do i upgrade my doc section
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-29
<froud> shuks what is the command to convert windows line feeds to unix
<froud> what channel are the translators on please?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> our translators?
<froud> Any translators
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> #rosetta might have some
<froud> I got a PO file created on windows
<froud> and the line feeds etc are borked
<froud> nobody at #rosetta
<froud> Burgundavia: I wonder why the windows tools dont detect the unix line feeds and preserve them. I know the unix tool chain can be configured to preserve them windows structures.
<Burgundavia> because windows is blinkered by ideology
<Burgundavia> they cannot admit that *nix exists
<froud> :-)
<Burgundavia> and they don't want to take the time/money to bother to make something interoperate
<Burgundavia> all that work is usually done by FLOSS people
<Burgundavia> actually, it is amazing how much work goes into making FLOSS be as application/platform neutral as possible
<froud> yeah, seems we embrace windows but not the other way around
<Burgundavia> such as the Gnumeric people removing Gnome specific stuff
<Burgundavia> so that they can share code with the Koffice people
<froud> agreed
<froud> keep it open all the way or dont do it is my motto
<froud> whose awake
<froud> anyone?
<Seveas> i am :)
<froud> Hi
<Seveas> hi :)
<froud> I need a community input to a subject
<Seveas> which subject?
<froud> I trust everyone here know what the LPI is?
<Seveas> hmm, i don't...
<froud> http://www.lpi.org/
<froud> I have a vision to develop instructor lead training materials
<froud> for Ubuntu
<froud> now there are a number of course out there that say they are aligned to the lpi
<Seveas> sounds good
<froud> and lpi is distro neutral
<froud> I wonder if it is possible to develop LPI/Ubuntu Materials
<froud> the lpi part must be neutral
<Seveas> i think you cannot stay completely distro-neutral
<Seveas> but lpi+ubuntu specific parts sounds like a nice idea to me
<froud> I wonder how others would approach this problem
<froud> my approach is to merge the two
<froud> others say do them seperate
<Seveas> i think you should discuss it on the ubuntu-doc mailinglist
<froud> like do lpi and then ubuntu specifics
<froud> yes and no
<froud> first want some thoughts
<froud> from a small group
<froud> what approach do you think would be best
<froud> remember the students will have ubuntu installed
<froud> so the notes must be ubuntu, but also satisfy the requirement
<froud> that they can be used to pass the LPI
<Seveas> how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to package management?
<froud> exactly
<froud> lpi covers deb and rpm
<Seveas> ah
<Seveas> how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to desktop environment?
<froud> lpi does not really cover desktop
<Seveas> ouch
<froud> just the cli stuff
<Seveas> that's bad
<froud> seperate or merged, this is my debate
<froud> I like the merged approach
* Seveas too
<froud> since students learn linline
<froud> take packaging
<Seveas> definitely merge it if lpi covers only cli
<froud> why wait until the end to teach how to use deb
<froud> lpi is aimed at sys admins
<froud> some basics about installing desktops
<froud> and stuff
<Seveas> even sysadmins should now gui
<froud> but not abouthow to use the desktop
<Seveas> they should be able to install & maintain it
<froud> that is about all lpi covers
<Seveas> hmm, i'll take a closer look at lpi
<froud> would there be any benefit in developing an additional part to an lpi certified course that just covers the ubuntu specific stuff
<froud> on the one hand
<froud> the seperate specific approach is shorter
<froud> but the merged approach is better for the learning curve
<Seveas> indeed
<froud> would the seperate approach create problems in the classroom
<Seveas> well, try to find some more opinions, i'd say go for the merged approach, but i'm not even part of the doc-team 
<froud> you are now ;-)
<froud> intersting if you see yourself as not part of the team, what are you doing on the channel, you have been here for a few weeks now
<Seveas> not really
<froud> just like our company :-)
<Seveas> i'm here since only a few days
<froud> Ah, you want to contribute?
<Seveas> just for reading along with the doc team
<Seveas> i'm translating the ubuntu website
<froud> ok
<froud> in rosetta
<Seveas> www.ubuntulinux.nl is my dutch translation
<Seveas> no, i started before rosetta was operational
<froud> how you gonna manage the updates to that
<Seveas> well, not
<froud> Hmmm
<Seveas> i'll merge it with the official website when the infrastructure is there
<froud> and then how will people keep track of all the updates in all the languages?
<Seveas> but so far, i'm translating bits and pieces of the pages
<froud> wheew, hard work dude
<Seveas> froud, i have been told that there is no easy way yet to integrate it in the official site
<Seveas> so that's why i'm doing it this way
<froud> OK, you mean there is a way to move the translated text over
<Seveas> the engine behind my site is xml based, i can easily transform the content to any format needed 
<froud> my concern is what happens when english pages change,how will translators keep track of all those changes
<froud> Hmmm XML, tell me more
<froud> what is the engine
<Seveas> right now i do it the hard way: once in a while i check the pages for changes
<froud> I c
<Seveas> home-made engine
<Seveas> very flexible
<froud> Do cyou have an engine for taking docbook and doing it
<froud> we need a round trip solution
<Seveas> www.kaarsemaker.net www.ubuntulinux.nl nuts.okkernoot.net/~dennis/uvasite are run by the same engine (with symlinks). Only config/template and content are different
<froud> ok
<froud> so the xml is valid to what dtd
<Seveas> no, it cannot take docbook
<Seveas> my own dtd
<froud> arrghh
<Seveas> sorry :)
<froud> no its ok
<Seveas> but it's pluggable, so i can 'easily' implement other DTD's
<froud> we are looking for a wayto round trip from wiki to docbook and back
<Seveas> ah ok
<froud> problem is it is easy to go docbook to moin
<Seveas> wiki == moinmoin?
<froud> not so easy the other way around
<Seveas> why not?
<froud> how to mark <filename>
<Seveas> wiki translates moin to html, why couldn't one be able to translate to docbook?
<froud> not so easy
<Seveas> (i have never used docbook by the way)
<froud> I have a solution
<froud> but it needs java
<Seveas> :|
<froud> authors editing in web based xml editor
<froud> relax ng
<Seveas> hmm
<froud> used lenya
<froud> lenya.apache.org
<Seveas> i must say that i'm not fond of java applets for editing
<froud> extended the bitflux editor to support docbook
<froud> slow though
<froud> I must find time to compile the dtd into a binary to make it faster
<froud> loading over 400 elements is not an option
<Seveas> ouch
<Seveas> indeed
<froud> well not ove rthe web
<froud> on my dsl it takes 4 minutes to load the editor and the dtd
<froud> not good
<Seveas> :|
<froud> perhaps if I make it a binary file then only the first load will be long
<froud> and subsequent sessions will be faster
<Seveas> yeah, but no one wants to wait 4 minutes for a wikipage. Not even once
<froud> providing that the user does not wipe the cache
<Seveas> and never trust caches :)
<froud> exactly
<froud> the other option is to get the binary installed
<froud> or to change the editor to look for an installed version of the dtd
<Seveas> but then everyone needs to install something to edit (or even watch?) the wiki
<froud> took the words from my mouth :-)
<Seveas> i don't see either of these plans working actually
<Seveas> the wiki needs to be easily accessible
<Seveas> or you'll scare people away
<froud> yeah, well if it was easy everyone would be doing it :-)
<froud> it's a nice problem though
<Seveas> so the option you need is moin2docbook
<Seveas> do you have a pointer to a docbook howto, i want to look into it 
<froud> that works to a point
<froud> docbook.sf.net
<froud> moin2docbook is on the docbook wiki site
<Seveas> for which purpose do you need the docbook?
<froud> the docs we package with the distro
<froud> the ones you see under yelp are docbook
<Seveas> ahh, so the moin2docbook is a process that does not have to be extremely fast
<froud> problem with moin2docbook is that it is not able to do it consistantly
<Seveas> hmm
<froud> and so you have overhead
<froud> you must fix the resulting docbook
<Seveas> ouch
<froud> each time
<froud> that's why I look to edit the xml under the browser
<Seveas> is that a problem with the implementation, or a general unsolvable problem due to the fact that moin is not that structured?
<froud> the second one
<Seveas> hmm
<froud> the permutations are endless
<froud> eric raymond has some tools
<Seveas> have you ever looked at general rewriting languages like m4 or asf+sdf for doing this?
<froud> he also warns of this problem
<froud> no have you got some links
<froud> like you say, people want easy editing
<froud> but we want structure
<froud> the two are at opposite ends of the same stick
<froud> but the stick is dry and bringing them together will break the stick
<froud> that's why I go for editing xml under the browser
<froud> WYSIOO
<froud> what you see is one option
<Seveas> asf+sdf is a rewriting formalism that can be used for generalized parsing and rewriting, it's developed at the CWI (center for mathematics and computer science) in amsterdam, NL. I have some experience with it now, you can find it at: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/sen1/twiki/bin/view/SEN1/MetaEnvironment
<Seveas> m4 is the gnu macro stuff used in (oa) autoconf/automake: http://www.gnu.org/software/m4/
<froud> Hmm, just reading hang on
<Seveas> from my experience with general rewriting, i know that these things should be solvable
<froud> yes, but code is consistant, moin is not :-)
<Seveas> it's just that it's guite an undertaking to write for instance an asf+sdf moin2docbook translator
<froud> yes
<Seveas> well, this can handle inconsistencies too
<froud> whew, it's a nice idea, but gee whizz
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> if i'm in a geeky mood, i'll try playing with it
<froud> sure
<froud> let us know if you find a solution
<Burgundavia> Seveas, you put yourself up for op on #ubuntu at the next CC meeting?
<Seveas> yes Burgundavia 
<Seveas> i'm DennisKaarsemaker
<Burgundavia> Seveas, ok, cheers
<mdke> hi y'all
<carthik__> hi, is there a quick guide on moin moin formatting anywhere?
<mdke> yep
<mdke> carthik__, on our wiki there is one
<mdke> good place to start is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HelpOnEditing
<mdke> that should link you to some other good stuff
<carthik> mdke, thanks, I was looking to flesh out a few things on the FAQ page
<mdke> which page is that?
<carthik> mdke, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
<carthik> bad formatting
<carthik> and I learnt a few things setting up my printer, so will flesh that section out a little
<mdke> gosh that document sucks
<mdke> best thing is to find a page directly on the topic you're interested in (such as the printer)
<carthik> mdke, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MoinMoinMarkupExamples does not deal with un-wikified, or pre-formatted text
<mdke> or make one ;)
<carthik> mdke, there is no printer page
<mdke> carthik, what do you mean by un-wikified or pre-formatted text?
<carthik> and I need to paste code samples, that are pre-formatted
<mdke> carthik, that is done using {{{ tags
<mdke> then }}}
<mdke> its on that page
<mdke> oh crap that page has been heavily edited since i last used it
<carthik> mdke, look for the section titled : How can I share my printer on my LAN?
<mdke> carthik, tell you what, use this page instead
<carthik> on the FAQ page
<mdke> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/MoinMoin
<carthik> the formatting sucks, for the <Location> ... </Location> section.
<mdke> carthik, ok forget about the first link i gave you, someone has ruined it, use the udu.wiki.ubuntu page
<carthik> mdke, that site you linked to - does not allow me to view source
<carthik> mdke, edit it, that is
<carthik> no permissions, it says
<mdke> you logged in?
<carthik> mdke, you should really be using mediawiki - I would have jumped right in to help
<mdke> carthik, not my decision
<mdke> are you the guy who posted on the list recently?
<carthik> mdke, I dont want to create an account at the UDU wiki now.
<carthik> mdke, no I am not the guy
<mdke> carthik, i think the accounts are twinned
<mdke> hmm no maybe not
<carthik> mdke, it is so difficult for a random newbie like me to edit a page, this does away with the benefit of a wiki, IMHO
<mdke> we need better docs for the markup i suppose
<mdke> should have locked down the HelpOnEditing page
<mdke> carthik, we are moving wikis soon, hopefully the new one will be better organised
<carthik> mdke, cool
<mdke> carthik, still moin tho
<carthik> mdke, I work almost full time at http://codex.wordpress.org which is a mediawiki wiki - life is much better without CamelCase
<carthik> Try reading a phrase with 5 words, written in CamelCase, and you'll see the difficulty:)
<carthik> mdke, thank you, you have been extremely helpful - please dont think I am dissing anything here :)
<mdke> carthik, i understand your criticisms
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-22
<LaserJock> ack I'm going to pull my hair out
<LaserJock> but I can't do that because I don't have enough left as it is :/
<Burgwork> LaserJock, why so? the wildtangent thingy?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah
<Riddell> patch for docs http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/DIFF
<LaserJock> Riddell: is that for speeding up the kubuntu-docs build time?
<Riddell> no
<LaserJock> oh, I thought there was some disccusion about that earlier
<Riddell> yes
<Riddell> http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/DIFF2  changelog
<Riddell> LaserJock: could you apply those?
<LaserJock> I can
<LaserJock> Riddell: can you paste the changelog from 6.06-3 on? we don't have -4, -5, and -6 apparently
<LaserJock> ack, in fact neither one of those patch applied cleanly
<LaserJock> Riddell: oh, wait a sec. I think I was doing it on the wrong branch
<Riddell> it's in kubuntu/debian/changelog
<LaserJock> I was doing it on trunk rather than the dapper branch :/
<LaserJock> Riddell: done, sorry about my stupidity there
<Riddell> cool, thanks
<LaserJock> np
<jsgotangco> good morning
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> System -> Help now has 5 entries heh
<jsgotangco> "Ubuntu Book Excerpt"
<jsgotangco> that's nice
* LaserJock goes to his Ubuntu box to go see
<jsgotangco> there's nothing yet, just the firefox start page
<LaserJock> doh, I should have guess
<LaserJock> guessed
<mdke> Riddell: nice!
<mdke> Riddell: however, we're missing the css and common images for the headers/footers of the pages
<mdke> Riddell: also sample/ is missing for the desktopguide, I think
<mdke> Riddell: I'd say each language needs a link to /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/common
<jjesse> hello jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> jjesse: hi!
* jsgotangco sees the kubuntu-docs upload
<jjesse> noticed that
<jjesse> anyone else having problems with svn up being erally slow :(
<jjesse> anyone else having problems with svn up being erally slow?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> no not really
<LaserJock> mdke: I commited up to  -8 for kubuntu-docs yesterday so we just need -9 changes it looks like
<mdke> LaserJock: thanks. How does one get a quick debdiff?
<LaserJock> mdke: download both source packages and then run debdiff 1st.dsc 2nd.dsc
<mdke> meh
<mdke> what a pita
<LaserJock> mdke: want me to send it to you?
<mdke> 0r i'll just download one source package and diff it with the repo
<LaserJock> mdke: http://chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/kubuntu-docs_6.06-9.debdiff
<LaserJock> mdke: just because I can ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock: thanks, my download for the first src package wouldn't even have finished by now :) 
<mdke> LaserJock: now you can apply it too :)
<LaserJock> mdke: hehe
<mdke> bbl
<LaserJock> mdke: done
<mdke> LaserJock: thanks a lot
<LaserJock> mdke: np
<robotgeek> mdke: sorry, been away from computer for a while now
<mdke> robotgeek: no worries. we need to rewrite the java stuff.
<robotgeek> yeah. good news :)
<robotgeek> i will try to get to it tonight
<mdke> robotgeek: I have made a start on it, I'll upload it
<robotgeek> mdke: nice. just been busy trying to get life in order :)
<mdke> robotgeek: how's it going?
<robotgeek> mdke: good, gotten a few interviews
<mdke> cool
<robotgeek> hopefully, i'll find a good position soon
<robotgeek> wow, what Eben Moglen said 2 years ago is coming true now
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-23
<mdke> robotgeek: ok, I committed something really basic.
<nictuku> hi, what is the URL for the localized server guide versions?
<nictuku> C is in http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/index.html
<nictuku> found it at http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/index.pt_BR.html
<robotgeek> nictuku: thanks, i'll keep that in mind
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<Burgundavia> long time no see
<Madpilot> been busy
<Madpilot> I'm about to shut down for the night, actually
<Madpilot> tomorrow is my 1st day at the Flying Club, I start at 0730 and need to be out of the house around 0630... bleh
<Burgundavia> yummy
<Madpilot> nah, it'll be survivable - I was up at 0630 this morning and lived thru the day :P
<poningru> uh...
<poningru> arent you guys brothers??
<poningru> so how come long time no see?
<Madpilot> we live at opposite ends of town, and have busy lives
<poningru> ah gotch
<poningru> a
<Madpilot> insofar as anyone who hangs out on IRC has a "life" :P
<poningru> rofl too true
<Madpilot> need some sleep before my Oh-God-hundred start tomorrow morning. Later, all.
<poningru> hmm this is semi relevent to doc
<poningru> I was thinking lets create a search bar plugin that searches wiki+doc+forum and displays them in 3 tabs
<poningru> for firefox
<poningru> so that people can search once for a problem
<poningru> and get an answer
<dsas> Can simple search bar plugins do as much as that?
<jsgotangco> heh i thought Madpilot is going to have his 1st day at the Mile High Club
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, dirty dirty mind :)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<poningru> dsas: ofcourse
<poningru> doh
* poningru is thinking firefox 2.0
<poningru> hold on let me go check on 1.5 stuff
<poningru> or would we only want this for edgy?
<poningru> and not for dapper?
<poningru> it seems not
<poningru> for 1.5
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> Bonsoir Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> night
<jjesse> in the kubuntu desktop guide does it mention shipit at all?  noticied today that for Kubuntu you have to go to shipit.kubuntu.org instead of shipit.ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> it does?
* jsgotangco thought its just one shipit address
<jjesse> if you use shipit.ubuntu.com it only shows ubuntu cds
<jjesse> not kubuntu ones
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<jjesse> mdke: ping
<mdke> jjesse: hi
<jjesse> mdke:  hold on work phone call
<mdke> jjesse: sure
<LaserJock> hehe, pings you then leaves, sheesh
<mdke> I have a csv file with all the people who've ever edited the wiki in it
<mdke> importing it into evolution as a contacts list is, er, problematic
<mdke> any ideas?
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure. I had a heck of a time trying to get mail.app contacts into thunderbird
<mdke> it just crashes all the time
<robotgeek> mdke: heh, find a perl script which does that maybe?
<LaserJock> hehe, isn't that SOP for evo?
<mdke> robotgeek: does what?
<robotgeek> mdke: add to your contact list (evo might store it in a file, right)
<mdke> yeah, it's just that even trying to click on the imported contacts is crashing evo
<LaserJock> mdke: did we need any trickery to get html to look nice in yelp?
<mdke> LaserJock: we don't have any html in yelp. but no, it renders it fine
<robotgeek> i like the color tabs extension in firefox, first 'aesthetic' extension i've installed
<LaserJock> mdke: I know, but when we did. ogra said the edubuntu-docs have a funny font and I just wondered if we had to do something different
<LaserJock> but he thinks it might be a fontconfig problem
<mdke> no, should use the system font
<LaserJock> robotgeek: URL?
<jjesse> mdke: i'm going to go over the release notes tonight and will let you know when they are done
<mdke> jjesse: great
<robotgeek> http://varun21.googlepages.com/main.html
<robotgeek> nice, firefox on my kubuntu gives me about kubuntu :)
<mdke> firefox on my ubuntu gives me about kubuntu
<mdke> ;)
<LaserJock> well, I had xubuntu gdm theme will logging into KDE ;-)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: extremely difficult to navigate that page :)
<robotgeek> i also have an extension to sync bookmarks across all firefoxes i use :)
* mdke is inexperiences when it comes to sending an email to 4500 people
<mdke> i need an expert spammer
<LaserJock> robotgeek: that would be nice
<LaserJock> mdke: don't know any of those
* robotgeek hides
<robotgeek> me too, maybe sendmail script?
<LaserJock> mdke: I wonder if mako would have some MIT friends that might ;-)
<robotgeek> https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/14/ LaserJock 
* mdke goes to google
<Burgwork> mdke, what do you need help with?
<Burgwork> userful is quite good at the spamming game
<mdke> i have a csv file with 4500 lines, each one a different person to be emailed
<mdke> what's userful?
<Burgwork> mdke, we use http://tincan.co.uk/phplist
<Burgwork> it can do things like customizing the name on the first line, etc.
<Burgwork> you could also just write a quick hack if you have sendmail available
<mdke> i'm not good at that
<Burgwork> for x in $list, sendmail x@x.com < test
<mdke> x@x.com?
<Burgwork> that is just my thoughts about how to do it with a bash script
<robotgeek> mdke: foo@bar.com
* mdke blinks
<robotgeek> okay, letme try to whip something up for you. how does you csv look like
<robotgeek> what columns do you have, mdke 
<mdke> it's in utf-8 and it looks like this:
<mdke> sabdfl,Mark Shuttleworth,mark@canonical.com
<mdke> lifeless,Robert Collins,robertc@robertcollins.net
<mdke> and so on
<robotgeek> okay
<mdke> shall I try and get sendmail working in the meantime?
<mdke> or something similar
<Rawh> Greetings, any official from ubuntu in here regarding documentation ?
<robotgeek> http://the.taoofmac.com/static/grimoire.html#contents_item_8.2 mdke 
* Burgwork looks official
<mdke> Rawh: there are no officials, but we're all working on documentation
<Rawh> hmm
<Burgwork> mdke, ssshhh
<Rawh> well its really unclear what exactly to grab if i want to install ubuntu on my system
<Rawh> being a new user on the site that is
<mdke> yeah, that's true
<Burgwork> Rawh, it is one of my long term plans to revmap the website
<mdke> robotgeek: reading
<Rawh> i managed to find myself a way towards the 'order a cd' page, in which i entered my details and got a cd shipped towards myself
<Burgwork> it will happen, probably within the next few weeks
<Rawh> the cd issue helps, but i can imagine there are quite a lot of users who dont like to put their home addresses in some online shipping database 
<mdke> robotgeek: ok, didn't understand much of that
<mdke> Rawh: yeah. Did you see http://www.ubuntu.com/download?
<robotgeek> mdke: moment
<Burgwork> Rawh, absolutely. The issue is that the website  doesn't clearly tell you how to get ubuntu and what are the options
<Rawh> Znarl told me to put this issue in here and discuss about it :)
<Burgwork> Rawh, we currently lack a website team
<Burgwork> I hope to start one in the dapper cycle
* Rawh quietly says something about being in a website commission team on this university
<robotgeek> http://rafb.net/paste/results/Epwi4l80.html mdke 
<robotgeek> Rawh: always welcome to contribute
<mdke> robotgeek: that looks pretty flair
<mdke> now to install sendmail
<robotgeek> mdke: let me read up on the smtp lib
<robotgeek> i dont think i have to do that for everyline in the csv
<Rawh> well i think something like ubuntu.com/newbie would help :P
<Burgwork> Rawh, there is going to be a /desktop and a /getubuntu
<robotgeek> mdke: do you want to customize each email with name?
<mdke> robotgeek: not bothered
<mdke> robotgeek: bcc though
<mdke> to: community-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<robotgeek> mdke: bcc?
* Rawh going off
<mdke> as in, [email]  should be in bcc
<robotgeek> we can just add it the the list?
<Rawh> be sure to highlight me some more, i'll get back to it, eventually :)
<robotgeek> mdke: i don't follow, we can just mass email in one go :)
<mdke> robotgeek: yes, but I'd like all the address in bcc, and the community council in to:
<robotgeek> mdke: not sure if smtp lib does that. 
<mdke> ah
<robotgeek> mdke: google tells me more :)
<robotgeek> mdke: okay, very doable. so, To: community-council@lists.ubuntu.com and Bcc: rest of emails?
<mdke> robotgeek: yeah
<robotgeek> mdke: http://rafb.net/paste/results/Nw5uhA78.html try this
<LaserJock> robotgeek: that colored tab thing is cool, I've got firefox all pimped out on my iMac now
<mdke> robotgeek: wow! Can we test it?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yeah, we need our colored tabs sometimes :)
* robotgeek has now aided mdke to spam :)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: nice python script, you should see the one the MOTU use sometimes to do LP bug reports
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, got a link?
<mdke> robotgeek: erm, what is the line "# Uncomment to send email" referring to?
<robotgeek> mdke: the lines below , delete the """
<mdke> ok, I'll test it
<robotgeek> just to ensure that everthing is well before sending )
<Burgwork> mdke, test with a test csv taht just has your addy in it before doing a mass spam
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-24
<Burgwork> this is, of course, learned from learned from painful experience
<robotgeek> lolz
<robotgeek> you can spam sabdfl though :)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/lpbugs.py is one
<LaserJock> robotgeek: do you have bzr?
<mdke> Burgwork: yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'm concerned that I should test it on some addresses with strange characters though too
<robotgeek> mdke: python should handle the unicode well
<robotgeek> LaserJock: nope
<robotgeek> LaserJock: nice, they have used the same sendmail thing
<mdke> robotgeek: ok, not working so far
<mdke> what is smtp_username?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: yeah, that's why I mentioned it
<mdke> i don't think my isp requires me to give any details when sending mail through their smtp
<Burgwork> mdke, you should probably throttle it, however
<mdke> Burgwork: throttle what?
<Burgwork> the spamming
<Burgwork> if you send too much, they might tag us as a spammer and block you
<mdke> i dunno how it works
<robotgeek> mdke: okay, moment
<robotgeek> mdke: gotta run now, bbl
<mdke> robotgeek: ok, I'm going to go to sleep then. Thanks for your help dude
<mdke> ah, i might see if elmo is around, he might know
<mdke> robotgeek: I just committed some changes for the java stuff. would you be able to do the same today for the kubuntu one? It's getting quite late for the translators (about another day or two)
<mdke> -> bed
<jsgotangco> good morning
<mdke> morning jsgotangco 
<mdke> Burgwork: I've made some progress on the wiki theme. It's pretty crowded though, we might wanna think about a more significant revamp of the theme, make it a bit simpler. Maybe that is something to do later though. http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki
<mdke> -> bed, again
<jsgotangco> help has its own wiki?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs
<jsgotangco> yeah i just read that
<robotgeek> mdke: getting to it right away
<robotgeek>  mdke: you have it wrong, http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/libs/sun-java5-bin has both x86/amd64 packages
<LaserJock> robotgeek: but I think the ambd64 package is empty
<robotgeek> really?
<robotgeek> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/multiverse/s/sun-java5/sun-java5-bin_1.5.0-06-1_amd64.deb pulls it up
<LaserJock> robotgeek: do dpkg -c on that .deb
<robotgeek> 19Mb download, moment
<robotgeek> it shows me lots of stuff
<LaserJock> woah, wait a sec. I think only the firefox plugin is  missing, not the whole java
<LaserJock> I wasn't looking closely at what package you were looking at
<robotgeek> yeah, firefox plugin is absent. (sucks for people)
<robotgeek> i won't have that issue on kde. konq will be able to handle it just infe
<robotgeek> fine
<LaserJock> really?
<robotgeek> yeah, uses /usr/bin/java directly
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> raphink got me trying KDE again
<robotgeek> how did you like it?
<robotgeek> small things like basket keep me hooked :)
<LaserJock> it's nice, the apps are really great, but I need to work on the look a little bit, Gnome has a really nice, professional look to it
<LaserJock> I've always said, I love the look-n-feel of Gnome and the apps of KDE
<robotgeek> :)
<robotgeek> i have been wanting to try out the gnome dapper, havent really got around to doing that
<LaserJock> its really looking nice
<LaserJock> I scrounged up a new box and put ubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, and xubuntu-desktop on it so I can have a look
<LaserJock> they are all really looking fantastic to me
<robotgeek> once i get my laptop back from my friend, i am going to put xubuntu on it. 
<LaserJock> the xubuntu team has done a good job with it, I prefer Gnome and KDE still though
<robotgeek> it's a 500mhz laptop, so xubuntu will run very nicely on there
<robotgeek> or i might put os x on it and give it to my sister, to use as a desktop :)
<LaserJock> one thing that is a problem right now for me is that the KDE menu is know cluttered up with gnome and xfce items
<robotgeek> you can use my nice script to get rid of other desktop packages :)
<robotgeek> http://robotgeek.org/wiki/ShellScripts/CleanPackage 
<jsgotangco> bah
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: nice wallaper you had for edubuntu
<robotgeek> maybe kubuntu could have used that in blue
<robotgeek> i also like the look of the edubuntu wiki. when compared to the ubuntu wiki, it looks so much better (and uncluttered)
<robotgeek> website, rather
<LaserJock> robotgeek: hehe, no I just want to get rid of them in the KDE menu ;-)
<robotgeek> http://www.edubuntu.org/ vs http://www.ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> there is a problem with the edubuntu wallpaper
<robotgeek> LaserJock: someone had a script to do that in the forums
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: new zeland was forgotten :)
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: oo
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I think that is sort of funny
<jsgotangco> we can file it as a bug heh
<LaserJock> yes, we should
<jsgotangco> then we could also flood pete's mailbox with rants saying there are not enough nationalities in the young wallpaper heh
<robotgeek> LaserJock: is there anyway to verify if the deb installs to /usr/bin/java without installting it?
<LaserJock> dpkg -c gives the list of what files are going to be installed
<LaserJock> so dpkg -c | grep /usr/bin/java would probably be useful
<robotgeek> but i think they use the update alternatives stuff
<LaserJock> oh, you want to see what the postinst scripts are?
<LaserJock> dpkg -x . would unpack the .deb into your current directory
<LaserJock>  and then you can look at var/lib/dpkg/info I think
<robotgeek> screw it, too many string changes. 
<robotgeek> mdke: fixed, and committed
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut LaserJock 
<Madpilot> why is there spam getting thru to the docteam ML?
<LaserJock> not sure, I bet jsgotangco is letting it in for fun ;-)
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> it's odd spam - the two digest ones w/ no additional content
<Burgundavia> one of them is an subscribe
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, how did work at the flying club go?
<Madpilot> good. tiring. Up at 0600, at work by 0730, then 8+hrs of trying keep up ;)
<Madpilot> I'd forgotten what the first day at a new job is like
<Burgundavia> given it is only your 2nd job in your life...
<LaserJock> wow, 2 more than me ;-)
<Madpilot> 3rd, counting the casual stuff I did in high school, but yes
<LaserJock> I some ranch jobs growing up, but it seems like am really a career student :/
<LaserJock> *had some
* Burgundavia has had 10 jobs in 8 years
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, is that counting the Katimavictim stuff as one job or 3+?
<Burgundavia> 3
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I've been in college for 8 years 
<Madpilot> very strange - someone is running around the wiki replacing every instances of "apt-get install" they can find with "aptitude install"...
<LaserJock> what?!
<Burgundavia> I saw that
<Burgundavia> bloody wiki
<Madpilot> look thru RecentChanges and see what "KristianHermansen" has been up to
<Burgundavia> mediawiki has a "block and revert every change button"
<Madpilot> "Block User X and revert every change they've ever made"?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> most useful for vandal
<Burgundavia> s
<Madpilot> interesting
<Madpilot> this doesn't qualify as vandalism, I'd say. Just a waste of time.
<Burgundavia> I would qualify it as vandalism
<Burgundavia> http://isthis4real.com/orbit.xml
<Madpilot> cool. Despite the Firefox propaganda on the page, it appears to work perfectly in Opera 9beta. ;)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, read the blurb on that orbit.xml page - do you get a whiff of creationism?
<Burgundavia> yep
<LaserJock> hmm, interesting
<Madpilot> glad it wasn't just me. Cool app, but a very simplistic understanding of actual orbital forces, I think.
<LaserJock> I got a pretty ok orbit out of angle=10 and force=5
<LaserJock> but it is quite a bit farther out than the dotted line
<Madpilot> you're supposed to match your orbit up to the red line
<Madpilot> even granted problems in scale, that red line looks way, way to close to the planet to actually be Luna's orbit
<LaserJock> yeah, but I was playing God and wanted a bit farther out orbit
<Burgundavia> the instructions do strike me as "I need to prove a point"
<Madpilot> "I'm trying desprately hard to prove a point", more like. (spelling, I know, but I'm tired...)
<Madpilot> found our wiki vandal/overzelous's editor's LP page: https://launchpad.net/people/kristian-hermansen - who wants to write him a note asking what the heck he's doing?
<mdke> robotgeek: yeah it has the amd64 packages, but not the plugin
<roysheng> hi can someone help please? I would like to know the template to translate the index page that show when start the firefox up, I have a look in ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-artwork it is not there
<kgoetz> i got an error updating scroll keeper. is this known? (i just asked in -bugs but got no reply)
<kgoetz> it's against the translation for zh_TW
<dsas> kgoetz: #45539
<kgoetz> sweet. thanks dsas. beat me there
<jjesse> mdke: feel free to upload the release notes for kubunut to rossetta for translation
<mdke> jjesse: ah, great
<jjesse> that should be the last kubuntu doc that needs upload correct?
<mdke> yes
<jjesse> how do i check the status of translation?
<mdke> jjesse: go to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/kubuntu-docs/+translations
<jjesse> mdke: thanks :)
<mdke> jjesse: got IE on you?
<jjesse> mdke: yes i do
<mdke> jjesse: can you check http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki and see if anything is hideously out of place?
<mdke> maybe even a screenshot, if you can manage it
<mdke> I bet the Login thing is gonna be wrong
<jjesse> email is mdke@ubuntu.com?
<jjesse> for the screen shot
<mdke> yes please
<LaserJock> mdke: can the heading be something other than FrontPage?
<mdke> yes, certainly
<jjesse> email sent
<mdke> jjesse: thanks. Those are some hideous colours
<jjesse> yeah, might be due to the fact that i'm using IE through a terminal service connection
<mdke> ah. well aside from that, it looks ok
<jjesse> will it use our launchpad username and password?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> Burgwork: you were going to give comments on the wiki theme?
<Burgwork> mdke, sure, just a sec
<Burgwork> hmm, can we just search text by deafult and change th button name to "search"?
<mdke> maybe
<mdke> they did it on the website, except for the "text by default" part, so I'm sure it's possible
<mdke> add that to the todo page
<Burgwork> can we hide the drop down menu for non-logged in users?
<Burgwork> I like the page history part, that is goof
<Burgwork> good, even
<mdke> add that idea too, no idea if it's possible, but i like it
<Burgwork> on better wiki docs?
<mdke> oh
<mdke> i mean at http://new-help.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo
<mdke> i'm using help.ubuntu.com/wiki to play around with the theme
<mdke> community/WikiToDo
<Burgwork> is new-help and help the same wiki?
<mdke> no
<Burgwork> hmm, nope
<Burgwork> so new-help is going to replace help?
<mdke> that's right
<Burgwork> http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki/RecentChanges <-- I get Login per modificare, not login to edit on this page
<mdke> oh, i must have copied something off the italian theme
<mdke> how bizarre
<Burgwork> all in all, very nice work
<Burgwork> this is a good time
<mdke> hang on, wtf
<mdke> "Login per modificare" appears on RecentChanges, and not on the frontpage
<mdke> something odd is going on
<mdke> Burgwork: do you get it on FrontPage too?
<Burgwork> nope
<Burgwork> you know what I think it is?
<Burgwork> I think the string "Immutable page" got replaced by the Italian
<mdke> yeah, that was (sort of) intentional
<mdke> except I forgot to use English
<robotgeek> mdke: nice work on the 5.10 vs 6.06 tabs :)
<Burgwork> mdke, can you setup esa for building pots?
<mdke> sure
<Burgwork> sweet, thanks
<Burgwork> we are not ready for upload to rosetta quite yet
<robotgeek> mdke: i was wondering about oyur script not working yesterday
<LaserJock> Burgwork: sure, get mdke to do all the dirty work ;-)
<mdke> robotgeek: right
<mdke> i'm slightly concerned about getting blacklisted too
<mdke> i'd like to speak to elmo or someone with some flair email skills
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I could figure out how to do it, but mdke is faster :0
<LaserJock> easy excuse :-) I'd do it too
<mdke> so are you branching to doc for dapper?
<LaserJock> mdke: so you are emailing each wiki author to tell them your changing the license?
<LaserJock> or rather doing a license for the first time :-)
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> how many authors?
<mdke> 4500
<robotgeek> mdke: yeah, someone with better email skills than me would be useful 
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-25
<mdke> oh god
<mdke> Alexander Jacob Tsykin is at it again
<mdke> sending emails with "true" as the only addition
<LaserJock> hmm
<mdke> ffs
<mdke> anyone got IE on them?
<Burgundavia_> mdke, in just a sec I will
<mdke> can you do me a screenie of http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki ?
<Burgundavia_> yep, just a sec
<Burgundavia_> ok, here is a good laugh
<Burgundavia_> check out the editorial that says Sun should buy Canonical
<Burgundavia> ugh, Windows
<Burgundavia> so bloody blue
* mdke pats
<LaserJock> hmm, I would think Canonical buying Sun would sound better
<Burgundavia> holy crap XP is unresponsive right after login
<LaserJock> yep
<Burgundavia> Mark is not rich enough
<Burgundavia> "You need to update your flash player"!!!
<Burgundavia> oh joy of joys
<Burgundavia> where the F*** do I have to go so I can get out of this bloody os?
<LaserJock> reboot, Reboot, REBOOT!
<mdke> LaserJock loves it
<mdke> he *loves* the windows
<LaserJock> hmm, my mac is telling me I need to reboot as well :(
<LaserJock> yah know, sometimes I have to sit back and realize, XP really does suck
<mdke> yeah, man it really does
<LaserJock> I get really spoiled running dapper
<Burgundavia> mdke, sent
<Burgundavia> firefox takes 2 seconds to load
<mdke> LaserJock: if you wanna do one with safari too, go ahead
<Burgundavia> all i have running is IE
<LaserJock> I have all kinds of software at the click of a button, it is fast, I can do anything I want, I don't think we are competing with Windows, I think we are blowing it out of the water
<Burgundavia> I have three different things telling me to update (flash, symantec and windows itself)
<Burgundavia> we just need a fast and easy office suite and we are in the bag
<mdke> anyone for opera?
<LaserJock> no opera here, I'll get you a safari screenshot in a sec
<mdke> ok, it looks good enough in IE for the purposes
<Burgundavia> the only thing I saw was the color band
<mdke> it looks pretty shit in dapper firefox, compared to epiphany, but then again, that's clearly not my fault
<Burgundavia> madpilot can do Opera when he comes
<mdke> Burgundavia: yeah, i think all the ubuntu websites have that problem on IE, don't they?
<Burgundavia> likely
<Burgundavia> honestly, who gives a shit?
<mdke> quite
<mdke> very well put, if I may say so
<Burgundavia> they work and don't break horrible
<mdke> yeah, ok so firefox and opera are the only ones to bother with really
<Burgundavia> have we had someone check with konq?
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> and I'll check with yelp 
<mdke> ;p
<mdke> damn, yelp doesn't do urls, sucks
<mdke> anyone got konq?
<Burgundavia> you might be able to launch it on the commandline with a url
<mdke> no, it just calls gnome-open
<mdke> (ctrl L in yelp works)
<LaserJock> mdke: http://chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/wiki_screenie.png
<LaserJock> mdke: I've got konq, but I'm not sure how to get a screenshot in KDE
<mdke> prtsc?
<mdke> thanks for safari, looks ok
<LaserJock> probably, just a sec
<mdke> the occasional pixel goes awry but who cares
<mdke> actually I'm quite tempted to try and import the pages, just for fun
<LaserJock> mdke: http://chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/konq_screenie.png
<Rawh> hmmm
<Rawh> wiki with logins :)
<Burgundavia> when did we pass 3k commits?
<mdke> this week
<mdke> or last
<mdke> another translation marathon to come on sunday
<Burgundavia> may 10th
* Burgundavia truly wishes for a web frontend to our svn repo
<Burgundavia> it would make my life much easier
<Burgundavia> I could waste more time at work on Ubuntu
<LaserJock> hehe
<mdke> so when you see Madpilot next, can you ask him where we are with the various book covers and admon icons and so on? 
<Burgundavia> mdke, you are as likely to see him on irc as I am
<Burgundavia> email me
<mdke> we can start getting that sorted soon, and if we're lucky everything will be ready for dapper, new website, new books, new wiki
<Burgundavia> s/me/him
<mdke> Burgundavia: no, I'm off to sleep :) I'll definitely email him in the next few days if I don't catch him
<mdke> good night you guys
<Burgundavia> night
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<mdke> robotgeek: here?
<mdke> hey Madpilot!
<Madpilot> hi mdke - long time no see
<mdke> yeah, how's the house?
<Madpilot> the new place is OK, fairly central for commuting and such
<mdke> good
<mdke> I'm terrified, I'm about to send this email about wiki licensing
* mdke crosses himself and presses the button
<Madpilot> asking everyone who's ever contributed to the wiki if they like the licensing idea?
<mdke> yeah
* mdke watches a list of names stream by
* Madpilot waits for his copy ;)
<Burgundavia> mdke, you spammer you. I got this email from you about this wiki licensing business :)
<mdke> good news
<Burgundavia> are you trying to extort money from me? I won't have it!
<Madpilot> :D
<mdke> Burgundavia: i also sell encyclopedias
<Burgundavia> really? I need a set of those
<mdke> and insurance
<Burgundavia> got any land in Florida? I need some. Islands are better, as I just bought this english bridge. It was a great bargain
<mdke> heh
<mdke> bloody hell, it's still going
<mdke> ah. done
<Burgundavia> I expect it to take about 20 minutes
<Burgundavia> or not
<mdke> should have timed it
<Burgundavia> php mailer takes longer, due to doing some mail merging as it sends
<mdke> god knows how my mail queue is
<mdke> it's probably all queued up
<Burgundavia> http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=19050 <-- look FUD
* mdke does a tail -f on his mail log
<Madpilot> mdke, I predict a lot of the messages will go straight to you, rather than to the CC email you mentioned...
<mdke> I've already got like a hundred bounces
<mdke> well, 75
<mdke> meh
<mdke> trying to help can be a thankless task sometimes
<Madpilot> mdke, you've got complaints about the licensing stuff already?
<mdke> some serious slapping around in -devel
<Madpilot> WTF for?
<mdke> no, that's an exaggeration
<mdke> but they didn't like the idea that the email kinda says "if there is silence, we assume you consent"
<mdke> logically, I suppose they are right
<Madpilot> but practically, there's no other way to do it...
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> either that, or start from scratch with no material
<mdke> which would be a waste
<mdke> anyhow, changing the subject
<mdke> Madpilot: where are we on book covers?
<Madpilot> was wondering that myself
<Madpilot> first of all, is the official name "Ubuntu 6.06 LTS" now, w/ the LTS added?
<mdke> yeah, Long Term Support
<Madpilot> OK
<mdke> we had some nice covers from some art people
<Madpilot> I'll update my cover SVGs accordingly - we've got one other candidate cover too
<mdke> i can't find that other cover
<Madpilot> just looking for the author's name myself
<mdke> http://klepas.org/temp/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc-cover-front.png ?
<Madpilot> yes, that's the one. I've got an SVG version of it too.
<Madpilot> only problem with it is the "Dapper Drake" text - that'll need to go.
<Madpilot> assuming it's chosen over my cover idea - I'll leave that up to the community
<mdke> Madpilot: where is yours again?
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/ 
<mdke> i don't think the community is going to have a decisive voice on this
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png <-- Ubuntu DG cover
<Madpilot> well, not the community as a whole, but docteam and possibly artteam should have a say, I'd think
<mdke> we don't have much time really
<Madpilot> yeah, I know
* mdke looks for the discussions
<Madpilot> robotgeek was working on a little script to pull the translated titles out of the docs so we can have translated covers too
* mdke nods
<mdke> i tell you what I like about the klepas one, is how the white makes the ubuntu logo stand out
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft2_CQsize.png <-- I added the white shape to this one
<mdke> that's a bit too harsh a contrast i think
<mdke> although I have no feel for what it would look like on paper
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, that last one, ick
<Burgundavia> I still think the lots of logos looks busy
<Madpilot> that last one was a bit of a hack, just threw the white shape into the existing design
<mdke> their respective merits are opposites: the klepas one is subtle because of the colours, whereas the Madpilot ones are a bit more colourful
* mdke shrugs
<Madpilot> I like the bright orange, it's eye-catching ;)
<mdke> Madpilot: i think we should leave it to you to be official producer of book covers
<Burgundavia> I really like the klepas ones
<Burgundavia> they are bold and simple
<Madpilot> all that Ubuntu palette info along the left side of klepas' cover - anyone know where he got that? I haven't seen anything like it on the wiki...
<Burgundavia> it is around
<Burgundavia> the artworks pages have been under almost constant flux, so I have no idea where to findit
<mdke> Madpilot: the other thing was those admon icons, do you think you would know how to get them at a higher resolution? just to see what will happen
<Madpilot> hmm, I'd forgotten about them. I'll have a go this weekend
<mdke> that would be great
<mdke> I'm so damn busy atm
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, i had forgtotten about it :)
<Madpilot> it's a long weekend here, so I've got time
<robotgeek> mdke: how did you email?
<mdke> robotgeek: i'll paste it
<mdke> http://pastebin.com/727629
<robotgeek> oooh, nice. 
<robotgeek> i hope you did not send 4500 to community-council :)
<mdke> no, I didn't send any to it
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. 
<robotgeek> i did not know about import csv
<mdke> spiv did it for me
<robotgeek> cool
<mdke> right, see ya
<Madpilot> later, mdke 
<robotgeek> mdke: later
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft3_CQsize.png <-- changed layout and some colours - thoughts?
<mgalvin> so i started working on the release notes on the wiki... i find these types on docs are easier on the wiki so the devs have easy access to it too...
<mgalvin> do you guys think it should be moved into docbook when done?
<Laser_away> Madpilot: I got a timeout
<Madpilot> Laser_away, on that image? try again, it should be working
<Laser_away> hmm, still a timeout
<Madpilot> it works here, not that that helps... :P
<Madpilot> just a sec, I'll pastebin the thing
<Madpilot> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14326
<Madpilot> Laser_away, ^^^ pastebin
<Madpilot> at a reduced size, for sanity
<Laser_away> Madpilot: I like it
<Madpilot> getting rid of the Human brown makes it much lighter
<Laser_away> hmm
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, I like it. I would lighten up the logo even more and maybe have it half off the page, ala the back of the ubuntu cds
<Madpilot> I'll mock that up in a moment
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, did the warbard.ca URL work for you?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> wonder why it wasn't working for Laser?
<Madpilot> odd
* mdke ughs
<Madpilot> hmm?
<mdke> hi Madpilot 
<mdke> just ughing at going to bed really late and feeling ughy in the morning
<mdke> you were right at people replying to me about the licensing
<Madpilot> any really irrational replies, or is it mostly just confused people?
<mdke> not too bad actually
<mdke> only about 10 replies, mostly favourable
<mdke> one has insisted that he can't licence his personal page as PD
<mdke> ;)
<Madpilot> .... ?
<mdke> dunno
<mdke> Madpilot: that cover looks nice
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> I've redone the Kubuntu cover too, but haven't cranked out a png yet - tomorrow
<mdke> lovely.
<Madpilot> I need sleep - talk to you all later
<mdke> highvoltage: yo. We need to have a chat at some stage about how BetterWikiDocs might effect the edubuntu documentation on the wiki
<LaserJock> mdke: I talked to ogra briefly about that
<mdke> LaserJock: aha
<mdke> LaserJock: I need to watch Dr Who right now, but let's talk about it later
<LaserJock> mdke: we have a short list of docs that could go on the help. wiki
<LaserJock> mdke: np, highvoltage is probably better to talk to anyway :-)
<mdke> an option would be to do help.edubuntu.org like wiki.edubuntu.org
<mdke> bbl
<Rawh> lalalalala beer lalalalala
<tuxmaniac> Rawh: hmmm :)
<cbx33> mdke, Laser_away I've been tasked with the wiki cleanup on the edubuntu side, would this affect me, ie is there anything ICan do to help?
<Laser_away> cbx33: we just need to figure out what needs to get moved and what doesn;t
<mdke> back
<mdke> Laser_away: so, you think you guys are keen to move too?
<mdke> hey Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi
* Rawh bounces around the room
<mdke> Madpilot: you still use opera?
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> what's up?
<mdke> Madpilot: can you make sure this theme looks alright: http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki
<Madpilot> looks fine
<mdke> good, thanks
<Madpilot> there's a small problem with the tab positions on the top right, but all the Ubuntu CSS seems to have that problem in Opera...
<mdke> oh
<mdke> screenie?
<Madpilot> sure. one sec.
<cbx33> mdke, do you have access to the edubuntu front page too?
<cbx33> ie to that webserver?
<mdke> cbx33: no. But anyway I'm not sure what page you're talking about
<mdke> the wiki?
<cbx33> I just need someone with admin access that server
<cbx33> I want to take a copy of the edubuntu css theme for drupal
<Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/help-ubuntu-in-Opera9.png
<cbx33> I'm helping highvoltage fix it
<cbx33> but he's not been around to give me a copy
<mdke> cbx33: if you tell us what you're talking about, we can probably tell you who can help
<cbx33> and we're supposed to have it done by the end of the weekend :p
<cbx33> drupal www.edubuntu.org
<Madpilot> mdke, notice that the 5.10 and 6.06 tabs are floating above the baseline...
<mdke> Madpilot: yuck
<Madpilot> mdke, all the Ubuntu sites do that in Opera. I've asked around, and nobody is quite sure why.
* highvoltage arrives and scroll back to catch up
<cbx33> hehe sorry highvoltage 
<cbx33> was just trying to get a head start on the css issue
<mdke> Madpilot: that's pretty serious
<highvoltage> cbx33: ah, i meant to go to work today, but weather has been bad, so i'm going tomorrow morning
<mdke> cbx33: yeah, highvoltage can help you
<highvoltage> cbx33: +/- 10am i'll get that tarball for you :)
<highvoltage> hey mdk and Laser_away 
<cbx33> thanks highvoltage, no pressure
<mdke> hiya
<Madpilot> mdke, yes, but all the Firefox fanboys aren't too interested in fixing an Opera-only problem ;)
<cbx33> just trying to fix it up
<mdke> Madpilot: ahh
<highvoltage> cbx33: great
<mdke> highvoltage: we were talking about the wiki move. At the moment it is taking with it everything with CategoryDocumentation, i wanted to talk about edubuntu related documentation, are you happy with it going too, or not?
<mdke> Madpilot: well, if you find the answer, tell me and I'll push it into that theme, and bug henrik to fix everything else
<cbx33> mdke, so this is everything taged with CategoryDocumentatino?
<cbx33> mdke, I'm just in the middle of pulling together all LTSP related docs for ogra - UbuntuLTSP
<mdke> cbx33: I kinda just said that
<Madpilot> mdke, yeah, I've poked at it a bit before, but never gotten seriously into it. The wiki has so many CSS files in play it's hard to sort out what comes from where...
<cbx33> cos they have been scattered everywhere
<mdke> Madpilot: the tabs are "sisternav" in screen.css
<highvoltage> mdke: yes, i am happy with it going on, if i understand you correctly
<Madpilot> mdke, ah, thanks. I'll have a look later this weekend.
<mdke> highvoltage: we could think about doing a help.edubuntu.org on the new wiki like with the current one, and a theme. Would you have any time for that? obviously broadly speaking the same theme would work 
<highvoltage> shees, 1200 new emails since i last checked mail (Monday)
<highvoltage> mdke: that's a great sugggestion. i'm surprised it hasn't come up before.
<highvoltage> mdke: i can arrange the infrastucture for cbx33 
<highvoltage> mdke: i'm sure he'd be willing to help out on that
<cbx33> :D - sounds great
<mdke> infrastructure?
<highvoltage> mdke: as in... organise the subdomain in RT, get the theme there, etc. cbx33 can get the page content together and 'draw it up'
<highvoltage> mdke: understand?
<mdke> ok. The wiki is up on palmer and we're going to have it at http://help.ubuntu.com/community
<mdke> help.ubuntu.com being static material as now
<cbx33> bbl guys
<cbx33> highvoltage, talk me thorugh it when I return :p
<highvoltage> cbx33: return from?
<mdke> highvoltage: so, we'll do some tests soon for migrating pages, the only thing is to make sure all the documentation is tagged with CategoryDocumentation
<highvoltage> mdke: ok, can you tag a wiki page with more than one category?
<highvoltage> (sorry if that's an ignorant question)
<mdke> yes
<highvoltage> i thought it might be good to tag a page as an edubuntu page
<mdke> the categories are just done by searching the raw text for a word
<highvoltage> but on the other hand, you can also find all edubuntu pages by doing a title search on "Edubuntu"
<mdke> so any page with CategoryDocumentation anywhere in the text appears on the CategoryDocumentation page
<highvoltage> ah, i see
<mdke> evem in commented text, i think
<mdke> even*
<highvoltage> man i wish i had proper internet access
<theCore> is it too late for submitting a cover art for the guides?
<mdke> theCore: no, chat to Madpilot about it
<mdke> -> dinner
<Madpilot> theCore, give me a moment - real world interupt here...
<theCore> Madpilot: okay
<Rawh> *blinks*
<Laser_away> Madpilot: I got a timeout on the opera screenshot, you sure you aren't blocking US IPs ;-)
<Madpilot> theCore, OK, back. Have a look at this: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Ubuntu_Covers_draft1.png
<Madpilot> Laser_away, AFAIK I'm not blocking anything
<theCore> http://www.peadrop.com/images/pg-cover.png
<Madpilot> Laser_away, can you get to any of my site at all?
<theCore> Madpilot: oh, we are making a bundle with all guides?
<Madpilot> theCore, I know we're going to have all three Desktop Guides, the Packaging Guide, and I think the Server Guide at Lulu - not sure about other stuff (Edubuntu docs, for example)
<theCore> Madpilot: isn't "Linux for humans" slogan was removed from the branding?
<Rawh> hmm, i doubt there's someone online who manages mirros ?
<Rawh> mirrors even
<Madpilot> Rawh, ubuntu's mirrors?
* Rawh nods
<Rawh> there's something fishy obout a file i just mirrored
<Rawh> in the releases direcory there's a symlink called 'releases' which links back to the current dir
<Laser_away> Madpilot: nope, I get a timeout on http://www.warbard.ca/
<Rawh> thats not usefull imho
<Madpilot> Laser_away - merde. I'll open a ticket with my webspace supplier then...
<theCore> Madpilot: I can see it
<Rawh> Madpilot: same here, no problem with loading it
<Madpilot> you both in the states?
<Laser_away> :/
<Rawh> im in holland / the netherlands
<Madpilot> and theCore is in Toronto, it looks like. Odd...
<theCore> Madpilot: nope, montreal
<Rawh> hmm
<Rawh> this really isn't usefull :
<Rawh> http://ftp.snt.utwente.nl/pub/linux/ubuntu/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/
<theCore> hehe
<Rawh> i could go on and on
<Madpilot> ah, OK. Your IP says toronto, that's all...
<Rawh> my ip says that ?
<Madpilot> no, theCore's does
<Rawh> phew
<Rawh> this remembers me, i should use irssi on our webspace machine... but then again, noone found out yet :)
<Madpilot> Rawh, docteam doesn't have anything to do with the mirrors, really. Not sure which channel to suggest, though.
<Laser_away> Rawh: you might be able to just file a bug and see what the archive admins say
<Madpilot> theCore, about "Linux for Human Beings" - it's still at the top of the ubuntu.com main page, so I think it's still in use.
<theCore> Madpilot: well, it been removed from the logo 
<Rawh> well there's a new channel for it
<Rawh> but since i'm almost the only one in there... :)
<Madpilot> theCore, you sure? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official still has the strapline versions listed, and Jane S. is pretty good at adding/removing material from the art pages
* mdke arrives back to see the madness
<Madpilot> mdke, in case you missed it: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Ubuntu_Covers_draft1.png
<mdke> v nice
<mdke> yep, those would be perfect
<mdke> what's the situation with changing the text?
<Madpilot> no idea. We need to get robotgeek around - I seem to have deleted my copy of his little script
<mdke> oh, maybe you can spread the words out a bit
<mdke> move the logo up a lil bit, and the Docteam bit down
<Madpilot> mdke, know anything about use of the Human Beings logo/strapline? theCore mentioned that he thought it was being phased out, but I haven't heard anything
<mdke> Madpilot: no idea. I'd go with the artwork wiki pages
<mdke> oh hang on
<mdke> no, they certainly haven't abandoned "linux for human beings"
<Madpilot> didn't think so, myself.
<theCore> what about this? https://launchpad.net/bounties/all-linux-for-humans
<Madpilot> that's a bounty that some user is offering, AFAIK, not Ubuntu/Canonical
<theCore> ah, ok
<Madpilot> "Registrant:  foolswisdom" - on the lefthand side
<mdke> how inappropriate is it to use a bounty for that discussion?
<mdke> muppets
<Madpilot> I don't think any of the devs or sabdfl have even bothered to comment on it...
<Madpilot> I don't think any of the "core" Ubuntu folks have bothered with that 'bounty', actually...
<mdke> bloody fop
<mdke> this morning, bookmarks were nice in the pdf files, now they don't work again
<mdke> fop hateses me
<Madpilot> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14356 <-- front & back covers, slightly tweaked
* mdke hugs Madpilot 
<mdke> brilliant
<mdke> ok, so now we need to sort out the admon icons, and I need to sort out a couple of minor problems, and we're ready
<Madpilot> the XFCE mouse looks like it's swimming on the back cover ;)
<Madpilot> I'll have a bash at the admon icons in a bit - need lunch now
<mdke> rock, I think i've figured out how to specify the appropriate size
<Madpilot> should we put some copyright info on the back covers, or leave them blank? (I think lulu adds their URL & the ISBN, don't they?
<mdke> Madpilot: I think leave them blank
<mdke> lulu can leave it blank too
<mdke> there is copyright stuff inside, after all
<Madpilot> right
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-26
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> banshee appears to be awesome
* mdke rues not having ever tried it
<crimsun> I'm a quod libet/amarok user
<crimsun> speaking of which, mozilla-thunderbird's import feature failed me utterly (didn't import a 77 MB mbox file that I've used for seven years with mutt)
<crimsun> oh well, nothing that google and mv(1) didn't resolve
<mdke> i haven't heard of quod libet
<mdke> does it sync with an ipod?
<crimsun> there may be a plugin for it. I'm not sure. (I don't own a portable music device.)
<mdke> that's how I tried banshee... my brother asked what he could use for his ipod, and I kinda only knew gtkpod so I searched, and it appeared
<crimsun> http://sacredchao.net/quodlibet/wiki/Plugins/iPod   uses libgpod, apparently.
<mdke> ah nice
<crimsun> you'll need a newer version of quodlibet than what's in the archives (I built it and mutagen from Debian Sid source)
<mdke> i'm pretty happy with banshee I have to say
<mdke> it seems to do everything right
<Madpilot> I use Muine for music - it's nice and simple. Not drowning in options like Rhythymbox...
<crimsun> mdke: doing everything right is ... well, right noble. If it works, it works.
<Burgundavia> Laser_away, you forgot to tell the list you applied patch 7 from cbx33
<mdke> crimsun: well, it's subjective. It does it right, for my taste
<mdke> in terms of simplicity and making it obvious how to do stuff
<crimsun> mdke: yep, that's what I'm saying. If it works for you, then use it. :-)
* mdke nods
<mdke> sorry, didn't quite follow you. Gotcha now
<mhz> hi guys
<crimsun> 'lo
<Madpilot> hi
* mhz sent an email to -doc
* mdke pats mhz 
<mhz> hmm, is that good?
* mhz does not understand pat :)
<mhz> mdke: is your wiki situation now 100% ok?
<mdke> yes thanks
<mhz> col
<mhz> cool
<mdke> erm
<mdke> mhz: I sent you an email last week about the firefox homepage
<mdke> it contained a detailed explanation of why chilean wouldn't work
<mdke> but as far as i know, edubuntu isn't doing translated homepages anyhow
<mhz> mdke: oh, sorry I missed it, I have changed HD (last one was not working ok) and I may have not read it
<mhz> oh, i see. I'll aask ogra then
<mdke> but chilean can't work anyway
<mdke> there is no firefox localisation in that language
<mdke> there is only -es and -ar
<mhz> chilean = spanish = latinamerican =colombian =argentinian
<mdke> well, there is an -ar translation of the firefox homepage already (for ubuntu)
<mdke> does it show up for you?
<mhz> yup, and it loads english
<mhz> :)
<mdke> sorry?
<mhz> file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/locales/index-es_AR.html
<mhz> it is all english text
<mhz> hence we translated it
<mdke> in edubuntu it is a link to index.html
<mdke> in Ubuntu it is translated, I hope
<mdke> maybe if ogra includes it in edubuntu-artwork, it will work, I'm not sure
<mhz> yeah, I'll wait til I can talk to him about it
<mdke> lemme check the package
<mdke> yeah i reckon it will work
<mhz> okis, then, it is just a matter of ogra including it?
<mdke> yes, I think so
<mdke> he can replace the link with your file
<mdke> probably
* mdke battles with fop some more
<mgalvin> mdke: i have been doing the release notes on the wiki for now, just so you know
<mgalvin> easier for the devs to tweak it there anyway
<mdke> mgalvin: ok. I think we can bin the idea of translating them, unless they're ready really soon... 
<mdke> what do you think?
<mdke> we should remove them from the help website if so, because the aim is to allow that website to be fully translated. No major thing because the releasenotes are really more suited to the proper website
<Burgundavia> mdke, desktop guide doesn't appear to render in breezy's evince
<mdke> Burgundavia: yeah. you'll need acroread
<Burgundavia> urghh
<Burgundavia> what about dapper?
<mdke> no, broken there too
<mgalvin> mdke: well, i would like to see it translated, but its not a *critical* thing per say imho...
<mdke> i'd agree mgalvin 
<mgalvin> i am just trying to find the time to get it done within a reasonable time :-/
<Burgundavia> mdke, is that a bug we can fix?
<mdke> Burgundavia: I filed a bug, and there is potentially a patch, but I can't test it because I don't know how to patch evince/poppler/whatever
<mdke> Burgundavia: if I give you the link, feel free to poke a few people
<mdke> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6728
<mdke> seems it might be related to freedesktop #4030
<Burgundavia> that would be poppler
<mdke> maybe poke dholbach and ask if we use that patch already
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> Burgundavia: you use banshee right?
<mdke> I've got it sorting by artist, and the silly thing doesn't sort within each artist by album/track number too. Any idea how to make it do that?
<Burgundavia> mdke, nope. muine
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> you know, I sure my pdfs don't open with totem :)
<mdke> hmm?
<Burgundavia> your latest email
<Burgundavia> read it again
<mdke> oh ffs
<mdke> whatever
<mdke> :)
<Madpilot> totem, evince, acroread, whatever... ;)
<Burgundavia_> Madpilot, you around? (sorry, playing with myconnection )
<Madpilot> yes
<Burgundavia_> can you try and ssh to  	 24.69.71.211
<Madpilot> The authenticity of host '24.69.71.211 (24.69.71.211)' can't be established.
<Madpilot> looks like I'm connected to something...
<mdke> that means it works yeah
<Burgundavia_> ok, that is good
<Burgundavia_> hmm, I cannot seem to test it internally
<Madpilot> trying to set up your desktop w/ SSH?
<Burgundavia_> no, my router
<Burgundavia_> I already have an ssh server running
<Madpilot> looks like it works
<Burgundavia_> cool
<Burgundavia_> wierd that it doesn't let me test the port forwarding internally
<Burgundavia_> you know, Windows does really bad things to peoples computers
<Burgundavia_> the number of people I have met/talked to that cannot run any messaging software on their machines because they are too slow is insane
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i might have it arounf, not sure
<Laser_away> Burgundavia_: darn it, yeah. I was going to do it but I had to leave the house and forgot :/
<Madpilot> hi all
<Madpilot> busy place here... ;)
<Burgundavia_> Laser_away, np
<cbx33> afternoon all
<cbx33> need some advice about screenshots
<cbx33> I'm wanting to add some small screen shots to a document I'm working on in docbook format
<cbx33> They only need to be small - I'm using the TakingScreenshots wiki page to help...
<cbx33> once taken should I manually resize them smaller?
<cbx33> Still new to the images in docbook thing
<mdke> cbx33: we are also quite inexperienced with them: we don't use screenshots in documentation really
<mdke> but i would have thought you can specify the size when taking them
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> it's only due to the nature of the doc really :p
<mdke> yeah
* mdke begins his onslaught on the repo
<tuxmaniac> rtel.in
<tuxmaniac> sorry typo
<glatzor> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> glatzor: hi
<jsgotangco> (im about to sleep though)
<glatzor> today I did some serious work on my bike accident per week ration. so I cannot finish the updated manual for update-manager and software-properties
<glatzor> ratio
<jsgotangco> its ok unforutnately i'll be pretty busy in the next few days and im not really confident on getting it done either
<glatzor> jsgotangco: good night!
<glatzor> jsgotangco: isn't it lunch time in asia?
<jsgotangco> glatzor: no its almost midnight here haha
<jsgotangco> UTC +8
<glatzor> jsgotangco: right, the earth rotates in the other direction :)
<jsgotangco> glatzor: we could probably do an update if we're allowed
<glatzor> jsgotangco: perhaps i find some time tomorrow.
<glatzor> i think that it's a quite important issue.
<glatzor> but I cannot concentrate very well at the moment
<jsgotangco> i'll see what i can do tomorrow morning perhaps its not that big an update for us either
<jsgotangco> i just haven't read the existing one thoroughly
<glatzor> the whole software-properties part needs a rewrite
<glatzor> I send you a diff of my work
<jsgotangco> hmm the help points to u-m too
<jsgotangco> but in the software properties section
<glatzor> i already updated the update-manager part
<mdke> glatzor: btw, is it known that update-manager has a different gksu dialogue if you start it from the menu rather than clicking on the notification icon?
<mdke> it says /usr/bin/update-manager rather than update-manager
<jsgotangco> really/
<glatzor> the difference should be a minor one.
<glatzor> I changed the gksu calls in update-notifier to use the --desktop option of gksu
<glatzor> to avoid this ugly pathes in the dialog
<mdke> so, is it known or should I file a bug?
<glatzor> mdke: it is actually a feature and not a bug :)
<mdke> it's a feature that it uses /usr/bin?
<mdke> that's a pretty bad feature
<mdke> it's much nicer without the absolute path
<glatzor> mdke: it used /usr/bin/bla for years :)
<glatzor> mdke: I know that is why I polished the gksu dialogs.
<glatzor> mdke: furthermore there is already a bug about this.
<mdke> glatzor: right, so is it known that in one case, it still uses the absolute paths?
<glatzor> one moment
* mdke thinks we've misunderstood each other
<glatzor> mdke: the gksu calls are hard coded in the exec lines of the corresponding desktop file that is used by gnome-panel in the menu
<glatzor> e.g. "Exec=gksu /usr/bin/synaptic"
<mdke> ah, so --desktop needs to be added to that?
<glatzor> So we have to change the desktop file of each application and add the desktop option.
<glatzor> yes.
<mdke> ok, and you have a bug about it already?
<glatzor> a second approach could be to make use of the KDESetUid option, that is included in every administrative application's desktop file
<jsgotangco> yuck
<glatzor> gnome-panel could be patched to automatically call the gksu wrapper for administrative applications
* mdke just wants to know if you've got a bug about it
<glatzor> so we would only need "Exec=synatpic" and "KDESetUID=True"
<jsgotangco> hey at least you got a good lesson :)
<glatzor> mdke: one moment...
<glatzor> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gksu/+bug/43076
<glatzor> mdke: but currently it''s a gksu bug. it should be rather a bug for all admin apps or a wishlist item for gnome-panel
<glatzor> but that is a design issue
<glatzor> I think that he will hate me for this, but perhaps you should nag mvo about this.
<jsgotangco> lol
<glatzor> mdke: I attached a list of all apps using gksu in their desktop files.
<mdke> glatzor: cool, thanks for the info
<glatzor> mdke: you are welcome
<glatzor> jsgotangco: I will do the manual now as far as I can.
<glatzor> mdke: by the way do you know how to make a cross file reference in a docbook manual?
<mdke> glatzor: in the same manual?
<mdke> glatzor: you can use <xref linkend="id-of-target-section"/>
<glatzor> mdke: no, to another file
<mdke> glatzor: what sort of file?
<mdke> another gnome manual?
<glatzor> right, i would like to patch the synaptic manual and replace the preference dialog section by a link to the software-properties manual
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> yeah, there is a way to do that
* mdke thinks
<glatzor> we use the software-properties dialogs instead of the synaptic ones in Ubuntu
<glatzor> mdke: but I don't know if this is an issue for dapper 
<mdke> it has something to do with a "ghelp" link, but we don't use those, so I'm not sure how it works
<mdke> grep another manual for "ghelp"?
<glatzor> good idea. i will investigate this.
<glatzor> http://www.mailarchives.org/list/gnome-doc-list/msg/2002/00250
<glatzor> <ulink href="ghelp://gedit">gedit manual</ulink>
<glatzor> thanks mdke
<mdke> ok!
<glatzor> hm. but the xubuntu and kde people will perhaps hate me for this :)
<mdke> glatzor: yeah, that will only work in yelp
<glatzor> mdke: do you know of another tool except pngcrush to do batch compression of png files? using pngcrush I get a libpng link time error here.
<mdke> glatzor: yeah me too, it's a bug in pngcrush i think. I don't know anything else, sorry
<glatzor> hm. ok. that's a pity 
<mdke> but someone else might
<mdke> I know nothing about images
<glatzor> http://packages.debian.org/unstable/graphics/pngcrush
<glatzor> mdke: debian testing contains a working version
<glatzor> and saved additional 4 mbyte on the installation cdrom :)
<mdke> glatzor: maybe you can fix it in dapper too :)
<glatzor> mdke: if you approve my motu membership and ufv exception before tomorrow :)
<glatzor> perhaps we should integrate pncrush in dh_scrollkeeper
<mdke> glatzor: well, if you have a patch, maybe someone else can upload it
<glatzor> mdke: no sorry, i only recompiled the debian package
<glatzor> but since the current dapper version cannot even be built an uvf exception would make sense.
<mdke> yeah 
<glatzor> mdke: do you know anyone who we could entrust with this issue?
<mdke> glatzor: rent-an-MOTU
<mdke> Laser_away!
* mdke finishes massacring the repo
<mdke> glatzor: another quite annoying bug is the whole screen flashing after the gksu dialogue is finished - is the screen darkening going to be disactivated before release, or is there a fix for this somewhere?
<glatzor> mdke: personally i would like to not see the darkening at all in dapper. But perhaps it is already to late.
<mdke> we can't release with that, it's really unprofessional
* mdke goes to dig up the bug
<glatzor> i am on a quite oldish hardware and the darkening doesn't perform very well.
<glatzor> mdke: furthermore i am no core dev :)
<mdke> it's bug #5970
<glatzor> whoa, a bug id with four digits
<mdke> mgalvin: i see that the release notes appear in update-manager when dist-upgrading, are these the same as the ones you are working on?
<Laser_away> mdke: what!
<glatzor> mdke: AFAIK mvo creates the tarball that contains the upgrade tool and the release notes manually
<glatzor> Laser_away: you are the man :)
<Laser_away> glatzor: I am?
<Laser_away> glatzor: pngcrush needs a UVFe?
<glatzor> pngcrush needs a uvf exception urgently.
<glatzor> yes.
<glatzor> Laser_away: could you still do this in the dapper time frame?
<Laser_away> glatzor: perhaps, it is getting pretty late
<Laser_away> but I see it has a new release in Debian that has many bug fixes
<glatzor> Laser_away: but nothing could be damaged and pngcrush is really a great tool to save space in the documentation
<glatzor> Laser_away: I recently reduced the size of the update-manager documentation from 5mb to 700kb using pngcrush.
<mgalvin> mdke: it does not seem to be the notes i am working on... i guess i should talk to mvo and dholbach about it (they may not be aware of our notes)
<Laser_away> glatzor: let me see what I can do. I'll make sure it builds on dapper and then file a UVFe
<Burgundavia> mdke, you were a busy person
<glatzor> Laser_away: I can confirm that it builds on powerpc dapper
<Laser_away> glatzor: what is the current shape of pngcrush on dapper? it works, just not very well? or is is completely broken?
<glatzor> Laser_away: thanks a lot.
<glatzor> completely broken. you cannot even build from source
<Laser_away> glatzor: ok
<glatzor> the current binary segfaults on every use
<Burgundavia> mdke, ESA is not showing up on the sidebar at doc.ubuntu
<mdke> Burgundavia: did you add it?
<Burgundavia> mdke, nope. Why would I take the pleasure away from you :)
<mdke> because you don't want me to miss out on my ironing
<Burgundavia> but never is the question asked: Is it extreme ironing?
* glatzor hugs Laser_away
<glatzor> night all
<mdke> Burgundavia: the relevant file is in trunk/teamstuff/doc.ubuntu.com, just add the right link
<Burgundavia> will do
<Burgundavia> mdke, how often does the web side build again?
<mdke> twice a day
<mdke> you didn't change the link text
<Burgundavia> ah, oops
<mdke> link's wrong too
<mdke> >_<
<Burgundavia> bugger
<mdke> the doc is entitled "Release Notes" too
<Burgundavia> which doc?
<Burgundavia> the link?
<mdke> the Edubuntu School Advocacy doc
<Burgundavia> oh, I see that
<Burgundavia> I refuse to accept responsibility for that
<Burgundavia> but I will fix it
<mdke> :)
<mdke> yeah, Jordan must have used the releasenotes as a template
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi
<Burgundavia> wow, that BenM has done some amazing work with performance
<Burgundavia> mdke, how do I get pdf building, on ESA
<Burgundavia> ?
<mdke> Burgundavia: see libs/pdf
<mdke> branches/dapper/libs/pdf
<mdke> it's quite difficult though
<Burgundavia> ugh
<mdke> i spoke to pete about it, he said he had some plans for making pdfs by inserting the material into scribus or something
<mdke> it sounded a bit painful
<Burgundavia> ouch
<mdke> i think fop is likely to be a better idea
<mdke> depending on how much bling you're looking for
<Burgundavia> it depends
<Burgundavia> I am not a toolchain guru
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-27
<Madpilot> mdke, new admon graphics for Lulu done - they *should* be high rez enough to print cleanly now.
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/admon-lulu.tar.gz
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, can you give the edubuntu people a hand with the esa css?
<Madpilot> the what CSS?
<Burgundavia> Edubuntu School Advocacy thing currently has no css
<Madpilot> is that in our svn?
<Madpilot> I haven't been following the Edubuntu docs at all...
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> school-advocacy.xml?
<Burgundavia> all of my recent commits have been to it
<Madpilot> right
<Madpilot> it looks very boring in yelp ;)
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, hold off just a sec
<mdke> Madpilot: oh, tits
<mdke> i'll try em
* mdke hugs Madpilot 
<mdke> they look BRILLIANT
<mdke> good, *ticks box&
<mdke> Madpilot: thanks so much dude
<Madpilot> np
<Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Lulu_DG_covers.tar.gz
<Madpilot> and http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Lulu_back_covers.tar.gz
<Madpilot> what else needs covers?
<mdke> Madpilot: nothing, that I can think of. :)))
<Madpilot> those are just the Desktop Guide covers - should I do Packaging & Server guide?
<mdke> oh right.
<mdke> so are we going with our text, or lulu text?
<Madpilot> I'd really like to go with our text - Lulu's is ugly...
<mdke> we can change the fonts don't forget
<mdke> the only thing that would change, I *think*, is that Ubuntu Documentation Project would be at the bottom of the page
<Madpilot> how much layout control do you have when lulu does the covers for us?
<mdke> lemme see
<mdke> Madpilot: none, basically. Only the font and font size
<Madpilot> bleh
<mdke> yeah, that sucks actually
<mdke> it's right at the top
<Madpilot> I'll bundle the SVGs in a minute, those are easy to modify
<Burgundavia> I wonder if Lulu has the same issue Trafford has, having lots of crazy religious books
<Madpilot> probably ;)
* mdke notices that banshee isn't doing a good job on his ipod after all
<Madpilot> I was reading about some flaky thing or another - UFOs, I think it was - a while ago, and the flaky guy had a book "published by Lulu Press" available...
<Burgundavia> hrh
<Burgundavia> heh, even
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, have you tried generating a pot out of scribus' xml?
* Burgundavia wishes scribus used pdf or svg print internally
<Madpilot> I've never tried to generate a pot out of anything, never mind scribus
<Madpilot> these covers are pure SVG, though - all Inkscape work
<Burgundavia> I am thinking of the esa stuff
<mdke> well, that's valid xml
<mdke> why shouldn't xml2po work?
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Lulu_Covers_SVG.tar.gz <-- the six SVG files
<Madpilot> need food - back in a while. mdke, are you going to be here much longer? (I know it's late in .it...)
<mdke> Madpilot: i live in London... but no, sleep calls
<Madpilot> OK - we can chat tomorrow about covers and such. See you later.
<mdke> great, thanks a lot for all that
<Burgundavia> http://www.krazypenguin.net/Ubuntu_Dapper_Drake_6.06_Guide <-- oh joy, another ubuntuguide
<Madpilot> grand
<Madpilot> right, now that I've fed myself, what's up with that Edubuntu doc stuff, Burgundavia?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, we need some css for the esa
<Madpilot> gah... this means I'm going to have to figure out xincludes & how XML treats CSS...
<mdke> no, he means for the html
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: good morning
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping
<jsgotangco> Setting up scrollkeeper (0.3.14-11ubuntu4) ...
<jsgotangco> Rebuilding the database. This may take some time.
<jsgotangco> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/zh_TW/preface.xml"
<jsgotangco> //usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu/serverguide/zh_TW/serverguide.xml:401: element include: XInclude error : could not load /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/zh_TW/preface.xml, and no fallback was found
<mdke> yes, we have a bug about it
<jsgotangco> cool i didnt notice
<poningru> wtf
<poningru> http://www.krazypenguin.net/Ubuntu_Dapper_Drake_6.06_Guide
<Madpilot> yeah. Burgundavia posted that above- yet another Ubuntuguide fork... joy.
<Madpilot> bleh - if you google for "ubuntu help", ubuntuguide is still the fourth link you see...
<poningru> yech
<poningru> we should invite the guy into ubuntu doc team
<poningru> I mean if he wants to put it out in gfdl then why the crap isnt he working with ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> he chose not to?
<Madpilot> he thought he could do a better job on his own? :P
<jsgotangco> some people are like that we can't blame 'em
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, at least it is not the first
* Burgundavia is eagerly awaiting the wiki move
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you seen serenity?
<Madpilot> the movie? No.
<Burgundavia> good, just watched it
<Madpilot> library DVD, or ?
<Burgundavia> nah, downloaded a while back
<Madpilot> cool. Burn it onto DVD for me?
<Burgundavia> I can burn it on to two cds
<Madpilot> that'll do
<Burgundavia> it is nice. With dapper, totem-gstreamer works for everything but wmv9 and dvds
<poningru> the wikimove?
<Burgundavia> poningru, the documentation is moving to help.ubuntu.com
<poningru> ah
<poningru> gotcha
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder how many unoffical Dapper guides there are going to be
<Burgundavia> dozens
<LaserJock> :/
<LaserJock> maybe we should call ours the "unofficial Dapper Guide" and then they wouldn't need to make their own ;-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol LaserJock . sad but true
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
(LaserJock/#ubuntu-doc) giving the bot references to the desktop guide is a good start
(LaserJock/#ubuntu-doc) I need to troll trough the forums giving references :-)
<LaserJock> hmm, it's funny that I've seen at least three claim that they are maintaining the ubuntuguide.org doc
<jsgotangco> yay
<MysteriousGEGL> greetings
<LaserJock> hi MysteriousGEGL 
<Madpilot> didn't the author of the original ubuntuguide release it under a Free(ish) license, which is why we're seeing all these clones?
<LaserJock> GPL
<LaserJock> well, that it it not being maintained anymore
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, he later relicensed to us under gfdl and cc-by-sa
<Madpilot> right - which formed at least part of the Dapper Ubuntu/Kubuntu DGs, I think?
<jsgotangco> heh just want to shout, freesoftware magazine issue 12 is out :)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, got any writing in it?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, URL?
<jsgotangco> yeah im suprised it made the cover
<jsgotangco> i wrote it like 2 months ago
<jsgotangco> its not comprehensive, but good enough for beginnerds
<Burgundavia> http://codefromthe70s.org/xp-reinstall.asp <-- everything wrong with XP, in one image
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: hehe, obviously he hasn't seen MenusRevisited ;-)
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, actually, the people that haven't are the app makers
<Burgundavia> wonder how they will react once Linux gets widespread
<Burgundavia> how many will try and break the menu system and have a top level menu item with their name on it?
<LaserJock> hehe
<Burgundavia> and what the community reaction will be
<Burgundavia> likely I suspect the reaction will be to whitelist the apps menu to specific set
<LaserJock> hmm, well I'd like to work on dynamic menus for Edubuntu Edgy, I wonder if that would help
<Burgundavia> what sort of dynamic menus?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you know, MexiSnax chips are not what they used to be
<Madpilot> no?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, on UbuntuScientists you need to tag things that are not packaged, rather show that they are not in Ubuntu by lack of tag, imho
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, no. I bought the Salsa Picante. Not very picante
<Madpilot> too bad. They still make the Hot ones, last I saw, and those are fairly hot...
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: perhaps, but I want to show which ones are in Universe/Multiverse, but maybe it is better to indicate the ones that aren't
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, probably
<Burgundavia> maybe have different coloured text
<LaserJock> ah yeah, that would be cool
<Burgundavia> "needs packaging" is good forward looking way to put it
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: wrt dynamic menus, the idea would be to have different menu depending on what meta-package is installed
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> not sure I like that
<Burgundavia> then you need conflicting metapakcages
<Burgundavia> I would rather have the ability to have several installed and chosen by a menu/profile editor
<LaserJock> I'm not sure they would conflict
<Burgundavia> they would have to
<Burgundavia> there is only one menu
<LaserJock> but perhaps they would add to or subtract from the menu
<LaserJock> I need to spec it out with ogra
<Burgundavia> I can see that ending in tears
<Burgundavia> what about creating new applets that have different menus?
<Burgundavia> that way you don't play with the actual menus, but still have the dynamic part
<LaserJock> applets?
<Burgundavia> I am truly leary of changing the main menu, because you have an issue if people want both types of menus
<Madpilot> LaserJock, some development of the Drawer applet?
<Burgundavia> the other major issue with metapackages is it implies internet access
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: well, I'm not sure. But edubuntu is going to have to do something
<Burgundavia> if you have a "edubuntu-menus" package which is a series of menu applets, you can have that installed by default and then let people choose which one they want
<LaserJock> but not change the main menu?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> by default, the young profile can have a young menu, etc.
<Burgundavia> screwing with the main menu is likely to require a huge divergence from upstream and be juggled well to prevent screwing over everybody on the system
<LaserJock> I don't think it is a huge divergence, it would be more like MenusRevisited via metapackages
<Burgundavia> hmm, plugins end in tears part 9 billion --> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-May/msg00036.html
<LaserJock> but I see what your saying
<jsgotangco> it would be pretty scary to diverge
<Burgundavia> I just don't see how you can do it without hacking around
<jsgotangco> the current meta package only switches themes though
<Burgundavia> another way would be to extend alacarte to take in the ideas of profiles
<jsgotangco> sabayon
<Burgundavia> ya
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: it seems we'll be busy then heh
<LaserJock> perhaps, but again, this is just something ogra was thinking about
<Burgundavia> metapackages is also huge problem, I think
<jsgotangco> it becomes a web of deps
<LaserJock> that is the other thing I'm supposed to work on for Edgy
<jsgotangco> cross related deps
<Burgundavia> for one, upstream will never accept code that depends on deb packaging crap
<LaserJock> edubuntu science meta-packages
<Burgundavia> meta pakcagse that instlal stuff are fine
<jsgotangco> smoke brb
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is an evil habit
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, have you or ogra discussed any of this with upstream?
<Burgundavia> vuntz runs Ubuntu you known
<LaserJock> probably not, but it isn't even braindump at this stage ;-)
<Burgundavia> you should
<Burgundavia> there is probably a sane way to get dynamic menus
<Burgundavia> I should point that I agree with you on the fact that Edubuntu needs to solve the menus issue
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: yes im cutting it up (with good progress though)
<Burgundavia> cutting it down?
<jsgotangco> err
<LaserJock> ok, I gotta go guys, cya tomorrow
<jsgotangco> sorry
<jsgotangco> yeah down
<Burgundavia> cya
* Burgundavia watches another non-english speaker fall prey to strange English sayings
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, 10 days until my work desktop moves to Ubuntu
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, just you, or the whole company?
<Burgundavia> just me
<Burgundavia> our brilliant engineers have been unable to get our stuff going on FC5
<jsgotangco> FC5 is horribly broken
<Burgundavia> that is what they are finding out
<Burgundavia> good thing we just revved our key product and don't need to do that again for a while
<jsgotangco> i had issues with mod rewrite when it first came out
<jsgotangco> but it is probably fixed now
<Burgundavia> they apparently have been having lots of random crashes
<Burgundavia> well, if you build in somebodies sandbox, things break occasionally
<jsgotangco> lol yeah
<nn04> hello everyone
<nn04> was wondering if anyone could give some quick pointers on some apt-get problems im having
<nn04> ....? anyone
<Burgundavia> nn04, this is not really a support channel. I suggest you try #ubuntu
<nn04> o, sry bout that, thnx
<Burgundavia> np
<jsgotangco> wow youre still awake
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it is only 1am
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<poningru> its only 4 here
<nn04> 330 here
<nn04> lol
<nn04> i guess ill retry the repository edit and see what comes up
<nn04> lol, erik youll never guess why apt-get wasnt working, and your gonna wanna hit me when i tell ya :-D
<Madpilot> MysteriousGEGL, ???
<MysteriousGEGL> heh
<MysteriousGEGL> Generic Graphical Library
<Madpilot> why is a graphics lib mysterious?
<MysteriousGEGL> i dunno its been like that in GNOME ever since i read it
<mdke> meh
<mdke> what was the point of asking for feedback on the book if they weren't going to read our feedback :/
* jsgotangco hugs mdke
<mdke> thanks dude
<mdke> but really, this annoys me.
<jsgotangco> when i get my shengen visa then get to paris i will make sure to call you up
<mdke> part of the argument has always been "we got feedback from the community"
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> but mine was pretty much ignored, afaics
<jjesse> dude i'm sorry about that
<jsgotangco> you were a reviewer right?
<jjesse> you commented on my chapter some and i used it
<mdke> jjesse: yeah, i wasn't referring to you :)
<mdke> chapter 3 still refers to RestrictedFormats even when the answers are in the desktop guide :/
<jjesse> grumble
<mdke> and it's still awkwardly written for any reader that doesn't share jono's sense of humour or isn't a native english speaker
<jjesse> agreed
<jsgotangco> i looked at one chapter heh there's a bread picture?
<jjesse> mmmm bread
<jsgotangco> oh btw, i got an article published at freesoftwaremagazine.com
<jsgotangco> its not much, just a thunderbird/enigmail/gpg howto
<jsgotangco> at least the publishers are gracious enough to send me o'reiley and apress books as payment
<jsgotangco> (its GFDL too)
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<LaserJock> glatzor: ping?
<glatzor> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> glatzor: did you ask me to do the pngcrush UVFe?
<glatzor> yes.
<LaserJock> it is synced and in the repos
<glatzor> LaserJock: great!
* glatzor hugs LaserJock
<LaserJock> hehe, np
<LaserJock> that was the fasted UVFe I've done
<LaserJock> *fastest
<mdke> LaserJock: pong
<mdke> awesome work on pngcrush btw
<LaserJock> mdke: I just wanted to say that I got pngcrush synced, I'm not sure if you were going to use it at all but I thought I'd let you know
<mdke> very cool
<LaserJock> well, the MOTU UVF team was awesome and Keybuk synced it without me even asking him to
<LaserJock> we really have awesome archive and release managers
<mdke> nice
<LaserJock> LP has really helped as well, IMO
<LaserJock> I just filed the bug with a changelog and diffstat and assigned it to motu-uvf, then they looked it over confirmed it and handed it over to the archive admin team
<LaserJock> and I woke up this morning and it was done :-)
<mdke> that is pretty sweet
<mdke> i think we should build the pdfs for the website without embedded fonts
<LaserJock> yeah, it wasn't more than 2 months ago where I'd have to email the ubuntu-motu with the info, and wait for people to discuss/approve it, and then they would have to ping an archive admin on irc or email and ask them for the sync
<mdke> that way they will show up in evince
<LaserJock> why are the embedded fonts needed? just so everyone has them?
<mdke> well, it's so they look the same on Windows
<mdke> which for Lulu was quite important
<mdke> or rather, on any system
<mdke> we're nearly there with the pdfs, Madpilot has fixed the admon icons
<LaserJock> hmm, but the text shows up, it's just not quite the same font?
<mdke> yes, it uses the system font
<LaserJock> yeah, since evince has problems I don't think it would hurt to no embed the fonts
<mdke> gah, looks like the problem with some footnotes not showing up is a fop bug.
<LaserJock> :/
<mdke> Seveas: would it be problematic to have your bug bot in here too?
<Seveas> @config channel plugins.bugtracker.bugsnarfer True
<Burgundavia> shiny
<mdke> Seveas: thanks a lot
<Seveas> de nada
<Burgundavia> Seveas, noticed you have been getting meaner on the mailing lists when people post bugs
<mdke> Burgundavia: i bugged dholbach about the evince thing, no can do. I'll build pdfs which work
<mdke> bbl
<Burgundavia> mdke, ok
<Seveas> Burgundavia, if people don't listen...
<Burgundavia> Seveas, indeed
* mdke ho hums
<Burgundavia> mdke, hmm?'
<Burgundavia> hey jenda 
<LaserJock> mdke: what, not enough to do?
<jenda> hey, Burgundavia, mdke
* jenda = tired dead...
* jenda = stressed out of wits
<mdke> LaserJock: i get to that stage where I have so much to do I can't remember what it is
<LaserJock> ah, yes. I'm sort of at that stage today as well
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> I am doing final reviews on the book
<mdke> I had a good chat with jono today
<mdke> he seems to be quite a reasonable guy
<LaserJock> mdke: the RestrictedFormats thing?
<Burgundavia> jono is quite a cool guy. I hope to meet with him at some point
<mdke> well, not really, just in general about docteam/book collaboration
<LaserJock> cool
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, restrictedformats thing?
<mdke> Burgundavia: jono's chapter 3 points at wiki documents rather than our help
<mdke> e.g. RestrictedFormats
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> I have never seen chapter 3
<mdke> i pointed out that this was something I'd included in my questionnaire
<mdke> but I'm not convinced he read my questionnaire
<mdke> i don't think he had time
<Burgundavia> hmm, time seems to be a big one
<Burgundavia> non of the authors of the book worked on it full time at any point, afaik
<LaserJock> I can understand the lack of time but I think I would have put  a Matthew East review pretty high on my priority list ;-)
<mdke> i think the docteam would have been able to do a good job on it working collaboratively
<mdke> but maybe next time our involvement will be greater
<LaserJock> yeah, there seemed to be a lot of firsts with this release
<mdke> i explained to jono that if you're really going to ham up the "community" side of a book, you actually have to involve the community, and the docteam already has a good process in place for acting as a pyramid for the wider community
<mdke> he seemed to be quite receptive
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> enjoying the lovely weather on your day off, Burgundavia?
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Madpilot> gah... remind me how to use a .run file again?
<Burgundavia> for hwat?
<Madpilot> the new UFO:AI demo
<Burgundavia>  ./blah.run
<Madpilot> thanks
* mdke files his first bug on fop
<LaserJock> go mdke go!
<Madpilot> mdke, do the redone admons work in the PDFs?
<mdke> Madpilot: erm, you know they do
<mdke> 23:47:26 < mdke> Madpilot: thanks so much dude
<mdke> 23:48:12 < Madpilot> np
<Madpilot> cool, just checking - wasn't sure if you'd actually used them in a PDF last night
<mdke> they look great
<mdke> oh i c
<mdke> yeah, i meant they look great in the pdfs
<Madpilot> good
<mdke> spectacular in fact
<mdke> i'll do one for you to check out, hang on
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/desktopguide.pdf
<Madpilot> mdke, that PDF is 82 perfectly blank pages here...
<mdke> Madpilot: yeah, that's the evince bug
<mdke> or poppler, or cairo or whatever
<Madpilot> oh
<Madpilot> I'll kick acroread to life, then
<mdke> i'm going to build some working ones in a sec
<Madpilot> nice - works in acroread - and looks good.
<mdke> new contributor"!
<Madpilot> huh?
<Burgundavia> see the mailing list
<mdke> ok, same link, pdf should work in evince
* Burgundavia grumbles to himself
<Madpilot> it does - looks good
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, have you tried the latest ufoai demo yourself? it installs but won't run here...
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> maybe looking for stuff int he wrong dir?
<Madpilot> just a sec, I'll pastebin the error msgs I got
<Burgundavia> you trying the precompiled binary?
<Madpilot> yeah, the .run installer
<Burgundavia> mdke, nice work
<mdke> i love it when people turn up to the mailing list and just know what to do and send these great patches
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> yeah, is good
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14491
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, try and locate ref_gl.so and then create a symlink to where it is looking for it
<Madpilot> that file doesn't seem to exist on this box...
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> dig around on their forums
<mdke> packages.ubuntu.com can work its magic
<Burgundavia> hmm, no hits
<Burgundavia> it must be called something different in Ubuntu/Debian
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> ah well, I'll sign up at their forums later
<Burgundavia> usr/lib/libGL.so.1 <-- I bet it is looking for this
<Burgundavia> find out where it expects ref_gl.so and symlink it
<Burgundavia> I seem to remember doing that for an earlier version of UFO:AI
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, umm, what is with your name?
<jsgotangco> ummm Jerome?
<Burgundavia> no, the MysteriousGEGL part
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> i was doing a translation on GNOME a few days ago
<jsgotangco> i always see that string
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> well, I have to run
<jsgotangco> ciao
<onkarshinde> I have a question about Restricted Formats page on wiki. In 'Other non-Free formats' section why is use asked to install libxine if he is not asked to install totem-xine?
<onkarshinde> I have a question about Restricted Formats page on wiki. In 'Other non-Free formats' section why is use asked to install libxine if he is not asked to install totem-xine?
<Madpilot> onkarshinde, probably because that page needs a lot more proofreading than it gets ;)
<crimsun> it's probably because it's meant as a catch-all
<onkarshinde> Madpilot: You are right. I have already changed all 'aptitude' occurances to 'apt-get'
<crimsun> aptitude is just as valid
<rob> since I switched to Kubuntu I've noticed that page is really bad to read from a Kubunt POV
<Madpilot> bloody aptitude - someone has been going thru the wiki randomly changing apt-get to aptitude...
<rob> s/Kubunt/Kubuntu
<rob> Madpilot, hehe dam
<Madpilot> I know they're both valid, but randomly switching between the two just confuses people
<onkarshinde> Can anyone give a quick status as to what is not playable with gstreamer backend in Dapper? AFAIK xine is only needed for DVD playback. For everything else there is Gstreamer
<rob> last time I used gstreamer it was horrible
<rob> not sure what the current status is now
<onkarshinde> rob: Are you talking about Gstreamer 0.8?
<rob> yeah it was 0.8
<onkarshinde> rob: That is why I want to know how good is GStreamer 0.10. May be it plays everything well except DVD
<rob> maybe a good thing to do on a lazy Sunday, fresh install of Ubuntu on an old box/VM and just install GStreamer 0.10 to see what does work/what doesn't
<onkarshinde> I neither have old box nor a good VM.  I would rather wait for 1st June when I update my installation. I will then update the wiki page.
<rob> yeah, but will you know whats using GStreamer 0.10 and what isn't?
<rob> without going insane?
<onkarshinde> Yes. I will know.
<rob> ok then :)
<rob> I'm sure Gstreamer will tell you if its being used or not
<rob> I'd could think of many other more interesting things to do then test it though
<rob> does the Gstreamer project itself have a list of what works/what doesn't?
<onkarshinde> rob: I mainly use Totem. So I will know what can not be played with totem-gstreamer.
<onkarshinde> rob: I am not aware of any such list. What I know is DVD support hasn't been ported from 0.8 to 0.10
<dsas> onkarshinde: You do have dvd support as far as I remember, you just don't have subtitles and maybe a couple of other things.
<dsas> onkarshinde: at least, as far as I can remember.
<rob> this might help a little: http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/documentation/plugins.html
<onkarshinde> dsas: Never really tried DVD with gstreamer. My PC (doesn't have DVD drive) and my Dad's laptop both are on breezy currently. Will soon upgrade both of them to Dapper.
<dsas> onkarshinde: Nor me, I just read it somewhere. Maybe I'll give it a try on my desktop tomorrow if I remember.
<Madpilot> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille Madpilot 
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> robitaille, how are you doing with those bugs?
<robitaille> I did a few.  Still 55 to go :)
<robitaille> but I haven't spent a ton of time on it 
<Burgundavia> heh
<jsgotangco> hey
<Madpilot> fun - anyone else watching the edit war brewing over RestrictedFormats? I predict an apt-get vs aptitude outbreak sometime soon... ;)
<crimsun> sick.
<rob> hehe
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> I think we should hunt down all apt-get/aptitude references and kill them
<Burgundavia> say instead "install the following packages:"
<crimsun> that would actually do nicely
<Burgundavia> big job
<crimsun> edgy material.
<Madpilot> you'd upset all the command line fundies, Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> f*** them
<Madpilot> that's a good display of the Ubuntu spirit, right there ;)
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> indeed
* robitaille loves the command line.... :)
<Burgundavia> I have let the wiki devolve into a rats nest, tbh
<crimsun> that's a bit harsh
<Burgundavia> I think I need to carry a big stick and talk softly
<crimsun> it's difficult to "police" such a vast crawl of pages by any stretch of the imagination.
<Burgundavia> the wiki move should hep
<Burgundavia> help, even
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: i don't subscribe to your "command line is a bug" belief at all honestly
<Burgundavia> why not?
<Burgundavia> the command line scares a lot of people
<crimsun> I hope it's not a bug, but I understand your perspective.
<crimsun> We haven't quite gotten to the point where everything can be manipulated easily using gui tools.
<crimsun> At least from the audio side, there have been great strides forward made in Dapper, but there's still considerable to be done. For instance, both Kubuntu and Xubuntu have to muck with asoundconf via cli.
<Burgundavia> there is a bigger than just gui tools
<Burgundavia> the issue is to try and eliminate configuration as much as possible
<rob> Xubuntu users will mostly used the command line I'd say
<rob> s/used/use
<Burgundavia> rob, what about people using xubuntu on the tuxlabs thin clients in ZA?
<rob> I didn't say they will all use the command line (the gnome tools are available), but most users will skip them and just use the command line
<Burgundavia> the same could be said for Ubuntu and Kubuntu
<rob> Xubuntu is aimed at a different audience, those tools are not installed by default on Xubutnu
<Burgundavia> the audience I see for Xubuntu is older computers, not neccessarily those with mroe computer skill
<rob> same as a server install, although Restricted Formats won't be that much of an issue for those users
<Burgundavia> in fact, those with older computers are even more likely to have less computer skill
<rob> even if they don't have the skill, the Gnome tools are not installed by default anyway
<Burgundavia> rob, anyway, I think the point is that it would be foolish to assume a certain audience for any distro (except maybe slackware)
<rob> it would be, removing reference to command line utilities would be doing exactly that though
<Burgundavia> removing reference in the wik is not about that
<Burgundavia> it is about saying "there are different ways to insatll this, do the one you feel most comfortable doing"
<rob> yes it would, you would be assuming that all users can use/want to use a GUI to do things
<Burgundavia> if I say "Install X package", I am not prejudicing someone to use one tool
<Burgundavia> if you say "apt-get install X", you are
<rob> I don't have a problem with how it is now, although I would like to see more gui ways of doing things I don't think that should be at the expense of cli alternatives
<Burgundavia> anybody who uses Linux for any length of time is going to exposed to some communities members fetish for promoting the command line
<Burgundavia> note I said promoting, not using
<rob> perhaps a solution similar to the desktop guide can be done, ie here is a list of packages, choose your poison at PackageInstallation (or something)
<Burgundavia> I use the CLI, I certainly don't promote it
<Burgundavia> that is exactly what I was proposing
<rob> I guess we agree then :)
<Burgundavia> excellent, always good
<Burgundavia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5004584.stm <-- old people being subjected to Windows. Oh fabjous joy
<rob> my wife is trying to con me into buying her a $400 software package for her new child care business
<Burgundavia> $400?? what for?
<rob> accounting package spesificly for child care
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> they probably have the market sewn up
<rob> http://www.harmonysoftware.com.au/Products.htm
<rob> I'd also have to run it using Wine, or Crossover or something too
<rob> pretty restrictive licence too, can't on sell your licence
<rob> well, not without paying $165
<mdke> morning
<mdke> Burgundavia: good idea about the wiki and removing specific methods of installing packages
<Burgundavia> mdke, given my personal todo list has just emptied, at least with regards to Ubuntu, I will start in on it soonish
<mdke> wicked
<mdke> ok, cya later
<Madpilot> cool, another giant stream of wiki change emails from Burgundavia - it'll be like Christmas all over again! :)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, that was because I was stuck in bed recuperating from surgery with nothing but a laptop and lot of time on my hands
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to work tomorrow
<Burgundavia> night all
<ajmitch> evening all
<ajmitch> is there some way to stop destructive (if potentially well-meaning) wiki users?
<rob> without acls?
<rob> not really
<rob> although pages can be rolled back
<ajmitch> just someone who's creating a number of jumk pages, renaming some of the category pages at the moment
<rob> without stopping everyone, or using acls there is nothing that could stop them creating pages
<ajmitch> & the renaming, etc of pages like CategoryDocumentation?
<rob> not sure about renaming, moin may have an option to disallow it for all (doesn't need to happen all that often anyway)
<mdke> yeah, i think we'll disallow renaming on the new help wiki
<ajmitch> I guess it'll just be a cleanup job then..
<mdke> where has Cat Documentation gone?
<rob> can't wait for the new wiki to happen, that will rock
<ajmitch> mdke: renamed, replaced with crap
<mdke> "crap"?
<ajmitch> a dns zone file 
<ajmitch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ruwanDocumentation
<mdke> ok
<ajmitch> almost as useful as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dns
<rob> a bot maybe?
<ajmitch> probably not
<mdke> i'll ask in #launchpad to disable
<ajmitch> history of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ruwan
<ajmitch> has a name to go with it
<rob> seems kind of useless, maybe someone using it to transfer settings or something
<ajmitch> other pages have just junk
<rob> maybe someone just doesn't know what they are doing?
<mdke> i don't think rolling this back is going to be easy
<rob> pretty weird
<ajmitch> that's why I thought they were potentially well-meaning
<ajmitch> mdke: I've got all the changes made
* ajmitch is *still* subscribed to the whole wiki for no good reason
<ajmitch> hm
<mdke> ajmitch: sometimes renaming pages can get in the way of rolling back
<rob> I could never bring myself to subject myself to subscribing to the whole wiki
<ajmitch> ah good, someone reverted the changes made to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home
<rob> oh, cool the launched the Ubuntu Pro certs
<ajmitch> wasn't that launched awhile back?
<ajmitch> LPI exams?
* mdke rolls back CatDoc
<rob> 18 may-ish
<ajmitch> mdke: thanks :)
<poningru> rob: they did?
<rob> http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1000
<mdke> ajmitch: what else has he massacred?
<ajmitch> rob: ah, first people to sit it
<rob> yep
<rob> I wonder how long that will take to filter down
<ajmitch> mdke: CategoryAccessibility, became amila-dns
<poningru> sweet
<mdke> thanks
<rob> does anyone know where the profits from the official Ubuntu Shop go?
<rob> ah, bounty fund by the looks
<ajmitch> this ruwan chap seems rather bored to keep at this
* poningru wonders what a chap is
* poningru wps
<rob> aww there's no Ubuntu stein
<rob> there is a thong and a baby bib though
<poningru> whats a stein?
* poningru again wps
<ajmitch> beer is *far* more important
<rob> poningru, big German beer glass
<poningru> wow
<poningru> thats huge
<poningru> how much liquid does that hold?
<rob> at least a stubby/tinnie I think
<rob> 10" 3/4 Liter
<rob> 20 oz
<ajmitch> that's not too bad
<ajmitch> ~2 stubbies
<rob> http://store.yahoo.com/123gosteinbach/german-beer-steins.html
<poningru> wow
<poningru> 3/4 of a liter?
<rob> good ones have lids
<poningru> can people drink that much beer in a sitting?
* poningru is amazed
<ajmitch> poningru: sure, why not?
<rob> I usually polish off several
<ajmitch> it's not that much really
<rob> I kind of feel like a beer now after all this beer talk
<ajmitch> heh
<poningru> well in the u.s they usually recomend drinking 4 liters of water a day
<poningru> so I mean thats kinda...
<ajmitch> of course if you're drinking weak 'beer' like fosters, 3/4 of a litre isn't that much :)
<rob> well American beer is so watered down..
<poningru> yeah I dont like beer much
<poningru> most people say its because I only have access to american beer
<rob> I don't think any Australian actually drinks Fosters
* poningru shrugs
<ajmitch> that's why it's exported
<rob> I can't spell beer, so I just stick to XXXX
<ajmitch> ah yes, you're in queensland, aren't you?
<rob> yeah
* rob heads off beer spelling jokes :)
<rob> I think I'm going to go have coffee or something
<jsgotangco> mmm beer
<ajmitch> heh
<jjesse> mdke: ping?
<mdke> jjesse: pong
<jjesse> can i ask a favor of you?  i'm a little stupid on this whole convert my chapter to html and apply a CSS stylesheet, is it something you could handle?
<mdke> jjesse: I don't know, what format is it in?
<jjesse> .doc right now
<jjesse> i have no idea what to do
<mdke> jjesse: did you ask jono how he did it?
<jjesse> yeah he converted his to text and then used html tags to do it
<mdke> maybe you can use OOo  to convert to html
<mdke> file -> export -> xhtml
<jjesse> ok, i'll try and look at it
<mdke> evening
<Burgwork> salut mdke 
<mdke> Burgwork: any comments on that email?
<Burgwork> just send it about 2 minutes ago
<mdke> thanks
<Burgwork> np
<Burgwork> figured it needed to be sent, for people to refer to
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> are we talking about the same email?
<mdke> I'm talking about the wiki move email
<Burgwork> oh, that one
<mdke> i'm going to send it off now
<Burgwork> nope, looks good
<LaserJock> Burgwork: but you left out the consequences of reverting the changes ;-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I was being nice
<Burgwork> plus, it doesn't follow the CoC to tell someone I would send them to speak with the fishes if they reverted my changes
<mdke> LaserJock: have you got any free time today?
<LaserJock> mdke: what do you need?
<mdke> LaserJock: update the repo for the last two uploads of ubuntu-docs
<mdke> LaserJock: oh ye with the fast bandwidth
<LaserJock> mdke: on it
<mdke> LaserJock: wonderful, I have a long todo list :) thanks a lot
<LaserJock> np
<Burgwork> mdke, one of the big reasons I have held off moving to Europe is the cost of bandwidth. Here I have so much for so little cost
<mdke> meh
<mdke> 256Kbits here
<LaserJock> well, I wouldn't have good bandwidth except for the uni
<LaserJock> mdke: looks like we only need the last upload, 6.05.6 , right?
<mdke> LaserJock: there are some changes to debian/README that we haven't got from -5
<mdke> trivial tho
<LaserJock> hmm, ok
<LaserJock> mdke: so the browser-startpages should have the Dapper Drake -> LTS change in the HTML, right?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> ok, just making sure. it is a hefty change
<LaserJock> mdke: did you previously update the sk translation of DG?
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, I sent him a patch, which we have in the repo already
<LaserJock> mdke: done, rev. 3093
<mdke> thanks a lot matey
<LaserJock> I should just make a script that grabs the latest ubuntu-docs and makes a debdiff :-)
<LaserJock> I do wish we had a bit better system setup for packager<->svn communication
<mdke> indeed
* mdke thinks that LaserJock has a particular system in mind
<LaserJock> I really don't, other than me becoming a core-dev and doing all the packaging ;-)
<LaserJock> I mean, you could give dholbach and Riddell svn access
<mdke> riddell has it
<LaserJock> but that doesn't seem very elegant
<LaserJock> he does?
<mdke> dholbach should have it, depending on whether elmo has responded
<LaserJock> hmm, ok
<LaserJock> bzr would be cool, but ...
<LaserJock> I'm sort of off the bzr thing as far as the doc repo for now, it is just too slow and I think our current setup works well enough
<mdke> ah right
<Riddell> I do but I've lost my password
<Riddell> or something, it wouldn't let me in when I tried last
<LaserJock> I would personally like to see some split up of the repo into kubuntu, ubuntu, edubuntu, and generic but I think there are some practicality issues
<ssam> the installation process for installing MacOnLinux changed between breezy and dapper so i made a new page MacOnLinuxHowtoDapper on the wiki (the old one was MacOnLinuxHowto)
<Burgwork> ssam, as a general rule, avoid release names in titles
<ssam> what should i do now
<ssam> should i rename the old one to MacOnLinuxHowtoOld
<ssam> or have an old release section?
<Burgwork> rob, are you around
<Burgwork> ssam, can you safely merge them into a single page?
<ssam> i am asking now because i saw the email about putting CategoryDocumentation on doc pages
<ssam> i should be able to merge them
<Burgwork> ssam, thanks for your work
<Burgwork> rob, you around?
<ssam> do i need to do this before the pages are moved? and when will that be?
<Burgwork> ssam, it doesn't matter, either way
<ssam> ok, thanks. i dont really have time to do it tonight.
<mdke> back
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah
<LaserJock> mdke: umm, how is revert used in British english?
<mdke> it means to undo
<mdke> or to get back to somebody
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> the second one is what I was wondering about
<mdke> I'll revert with information = I'll get back to you with information
<LaserJock> I'm emailing back and forth with the Canonical travel agent and they keep using " I'll revert tomorrow"
<trappist> wow, never heard that one
<mdke> trappist!
<LaserJock> I've never seen that used so I wondered if it was a British thing
<trappist> mdke: :)
<mdke> how's it going?
<crimsun> interestingly enough it's used fairly often here
<LaserJock> crimsun: really? I've never seen it used that way
<trappist> no hint of that usage on dictionary.com
<trappist> mdke: can't complain, but awfully busy.  I hope to be active again here in a couple of weeks
<mdke> trappist: great
<trappist> crimsun: btw that eterm bug is finally squashed.  so thanks again.
<crimsun> trappist: I saw, thanks for confirming.
<crimsun> LaserJock: urbandictionary has it, too
<mdke> awww rocking
* mdke has decimated his todo list
<mdke> wiki move is basically ready
<mdke> Burgwork: around?
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> always
<mdke> good
<mdke> for the tabs on the new help site, we reckon they are a bit long, so I think we should remove the codenames
<Burgwork> hmm
<mdke> so, 5.10, 6.06 LTS, Community Docs
<Burgwork> problem is, some people only know them by the nicknames
<mdke> Burgwork: you might not have seen, but today there was a removing codenames rampage
<Burgwork> yep, I saw that
<mdke> so it makes sense for us to remove em from the help site too
<mdke> but they are definitely too long, I think it's a good thing to remove em
<LaserJock> the frontpage could have the codename -> number mapping
<mdke> I was thinking we would default to 6.06 as the frontpage
<mdke> it will be localised, so that's a bonus
<LaserJock> how would it be localised?
<mdke> well, like http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/index.ko.html
<LaserJock> do you have to pick which one?
<mdke> no, hopefully it will do it automatically
<LaserJock> wow, I don't know how it would do that but cool
<mdke> apache does these things
<LaserJock> amazing
<mdke> Burgwork: so you don't like the idea of removing the codenames?
<mdke> what do others think?
<Burgwork> mdke, no, I don't
<Burgwork> there is simply too much out there that jus says "ubuntu dapper" or "ubuntu breezy"
<mdke> Burgwork: even if they have been removed from the distribution/website?
<Burgwork> it is mostly what people are writing in the fourms/news articles/etc.
<mdke> listen
<mdke> i agree with that
<mdke> but given that there has clearly been a top-down decision about this...
<mdke> consistency is probably more important, IMO
<Burgwork> but all of our docs say "Ubuntu 6.06 (Dapper Drake)
<LaserJock> not anymore
<mdke> Burgwork: which ones?
<mdke> only About Ubuntu says it once. the firefox frontpage has been codename purged now
<Burgwork> but we cannot purge the forums and the news articles talking about Ubuntu dapper
<mdke> no, I agree
<mdke> but someone has decided to start trying, and they've started with the distro
<Burgwork> I try, but it is a big job
<LaserJock> but perhaps if we make a consistent effort the use of codenames will be minimized
<Burgwork> a lot of people, when asked, merely say breezy or dapper and don't know the number
<LaserJock> although I personally like the codenames
<Burgwork> if they knew both I wouldn't be worried
<LaserJock> but I think the point is they are going to know only one they should know the number
<LaserJock> *is if
<Burgwork> I think for the documentation we need to be very pragmatic
<LaserJock> but I think that is still weird since the repos still use the code names
<Burgwork> for the marketing I say, so for it
<Burgwork> documentation is a very different beast. dropping the name might make it hard to find which release they ran
<mdke> well, I don't propose we drop the codenames entirely
<mdke> just for the tabs, and especially given that they are definitely too big
<Burgwork> can we put a tooltip on them?
<mdke> I don't know how to put tooltips on websites
<Burgwork> javascript voodoo
<Burgwork> Madpilot might know
<mdke> I'm not keen on putting javascript into the wiki code, tbh
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> xchat does not scale well
<Burgwork> 9 days until I get a seemless Ubuntu experience at work and at home
<mdke> nice
<mdke> so what are we going to do about this? put it to a vote or something?
<Burgwork> I don't the tabs are too big myself, but I have not looked at it on a smaller screen
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> I'll mail the list and ask for opinions
<LaserJock> they don't look too big here, but I've got a 17" widescreen
<LaserJock> but once we start adding edgy, etc. I can see it getting a little crowded
<LaserJock> hmm, are we going to add edgy to the tab once the repos open?
<robotgeek> Burgwork, mdke : about the codenames. most of the people who ask for support say 5.10 instead of breezy
<LaserJock> I think it is getting there for sure, I'm starting to try to use it myself
<mdke> robotgeek: ah, that's helpful
<mdke> that's my experience with ubuntu-it as well
<mdke> LaserJock: no, unstable stuff will stay off there, IMO
<LaserJock> :(
<mdke> you think it should be there?
<LaserJock> I do, actually
<robotgeek> i tend to say breezy, and they go. "what? / 5.10"
<LaserJock> mdke: my reasoning is that people seem to send in fixes, etc. for the breezy docs when we have already done the fix in the dapper docs
<LaserJock> as long as it is clear that it is for 6.10 for instance
* robotgeek is trying to see where the tabs are
<mdke> robotgeek: http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06
<robotgeek> ah, okay
<mdke> LaserJock: on the other hand, we could be responsible for breaking people's systems :) I think doc.ubuntu.com for WIP stuff is better
<robotgeek> btw, help.ubuntu.com has StyleGuide linked there, might be unncessary
<mdke> yeah, I'll remove it when I update the site
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm I don't know, I think it would be good to give it a tab at least, even if it is "Development Docs" or something
<LaserJock> ack, I need to stop editing half-way through my sentences
<LaserJock> I think people should be given a chance to look at the WIP docs
<robotgeek> i think this was raised earlier on the ml, but www.ubuntu.com doesn't link to any help directly. we need to make sure that we link to it AFTER we move the wiki over
<mdke> ok, plenty of time to think about it
<mdke> robotgeek: it has a support tab. I don't think that will change.
* robotgeek will help with the cleaning of wiki now
<LaserJock> mdke: sure, I'm not going to fight over it. I just think that people would find it more consistent
<mdke> LaserJock: I'm not saying you're wrong
<LaserJock> but you might convince me I am ;-)
<mdke> I don't know whether you are or not
<LaserJock> my wife says that I'm too easy going, I tend to agree with everybody :-)
<LaserJock> I was trying to think of what the repo equivalent would be
<LaserJock> I guess it is like how there is cdimages.u.c and releases.u.c
<mdke> good point
<robotgeek> would a link just suffice, not a tab maybe?
<LaserJock> of course releases.u.c has the beta releases on it
<LaserJock> perhaps we could do something like put in the devlopment release tab when we reach a certain point
<mdke> yeah, we could do that
<mdke> I'd like a more structured release cycle, in general
<LaserJock> so that people can see/test the docs in progress once they are fairly stable but there is still a chance to make changes
<mdke> it would allow us to start translation earlier
<mdke> and still permit changes after translation has begun
<robotgeek> a rosetta type thing, with wiki syntax for documentation would be nice :)
* robotgeek is going offtopic, sorry
<LaserJock> I think a link from the front pages (h.u.c/6.06 and h.u.c/5.10) to doc.ubuntu.com would be good
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> and then a tab once we reach some point
<mdke> maybe a link in the header
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I just feel like we need to make sure people are at least aware of doc.u.c
* mdke nods
<mdke> man we have come a long way in 6 months
<LaserJock> yes
<mdke> I'm just trying to make sense of our source package for 5.10, it sucks
<robotgeek> good job everyone :)
<LaserJock> I have a similar issue with www.ubuntu.com 
* LaserJock gives the doc team and all contributors a big hug
<mdke> *group hug*
<LaserJock> I took me a long time to figure out where to go to get dapper .isos
<LaserJock> there isn't a single mention on the download page or the frontpage
<LaserJock> I usually ended up going to distrowatch to find links
<mdke> well, you know they are hiring a new webmaster?
<mdke> I'm sure a big task of theirs will be to fix that
<robotgeek> plus compare www.ubuntu.com vs www.edubuntu.org :)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, one of my long term plans is to work on the website
<LaserJock> yes, and I hope Corey's  idea of having a website ML
<LaserJock> is going to work
<robotgeek> later LaserJock 
<LaserJock> robotgeek: leaving?
<mdke> haha
<robotgeek> lol
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, i did not know you were on edubuntu council
<LaserJock> oh, yeah
<LaserJock> well, that is an interesting thing
<LaserJock> I'm not sure they know what they are getting ;-)
<LaserJock> but it got me a trip to Paris which I'm very grateful for. I hope I can get a lot done
<robotgeek> nice
<LaserJock> but it does feel weird approving members
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you have da powa!
* robotgeek gets reminded of "bicycle repairman" for no reason at all
<LaserJock> I suppose, but I don't like the 0500 meeting times every other meeting :/
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I think it was just ogra's way of getting me to work on Edubuntu more ;-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, likely
<LaserJock> now I feel obligated to actually *do* something for it :-)
<Burgwork> I have never yet made an Edubuntu meeting, due to the crazy hours they are sometimes held at
<Burgwork> wow. rob and I have agreed twice is one day
<Burgwork> shocking
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, my first one was the one where I was put on the council :-)
<Burgwork> mdke, http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ubuntu+6.06&word2=ubuntu+dapper
<robotgeek> lol
<Burgwork> and http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ubuntu+5.10&word2=ubuntu+breezy
<robotgeek> hmm
<LaserJock> that is soo funny
<Burgwork> if you quote it, the ratios are the same
<Burgwork> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22ubuntu+6.06%22&word2=%22ubuntu+dapper%22
<Burgwork> ok, wow, that is amazing
<robotgeek> http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22ubuntu+breezy%22%2C+%22ubuntu+5.10%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all 
<mdke> i don't think this is really the point
<mdke> i like the codenames too
<Burgwork> http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22ubuntu+dapper%22%2C+%22ubuntu+6.06%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
<mdke> but if Canonical have decided to get rid of them, I think we should help
<Burgwork> I agree
<mdke> and I don't think users are going to get confused if they don't know the names and see the website
<Burgwork> but documentation is decriptive, not proscriptive
<mdke> they'll just learn the version number, and then move on
<Burgwork> and how many will we frustrate before they "learn"
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I don't really think any except for some old school users that can probably figure it out
<mdke> Burgwork: hardly any.
<mdke> anyway, robotgeek says that most users he comes across know the version numbers
<LaserJock> see http://www.ubuntu.com/download for example
<mdke> after all, they generally installed them, by version number
<robotgeek> because when they download it, it has version number
<mdke> if Canonical are eliminating codenames, you can count on them being gone from the download sites
<Burgwork> only code names upon release
<Burgwork> think, vista/longhorn
<Burgwork> I think there is too much danger of us having people lost for little benefit
<theCore> should we remove the -z and -j flags from the tar commands?
<mdke> I think the danger is minimal, and the advantage is considerable: consistency
<robotgeek> theCore: no, i use both all the time :)
<LaserJock> although personally I think the present tabs are fine
<theCore> robotgeek: you don't need them anymore with tar <=1.39 ( if remember well )
<theCore> 1.13 actually
<LaserJock> theCore: ?
<theCore> LaserJock: yes?
<Burgwork> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.aspx <-- wow, see MS play up "community"
<mdke> rob: if you're here, do you remember how we solved the problem of the disappearing licences in the html output of the faqguide?
<LaserJock> theCore: where did you get that info?
<robotgeek> anyways, later
<LaserJock> cya robotgeek 
<theCore> LaserJock: a while ago, when I was building a Linux From Scrach system
<LaserJock> theCore: it automatically detects -j or -z?
<theCore> LaserJock: yes, based on the file extension
<theCore> it was from version 1.15 actually ... :/
<LaserJock> hmm, yeah. it seems to work
<theCore> http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/#releases
<mdke> rob: oh yeah, I remember it (doh)
<theCore> the only problem when might have if we remove the -z -j flags, is complains from hoary users, because they have 1.14.x 
<LaserJock> mdke: what time is it there?
<mdke> nearly midnight
<LaserJock> :/
<crimsun> the night is young!
<LaserJock> I was going to email the travel agent real quick to see if I could move days for flying to Paris
<LaserJock> but I might be a little late for that :-)
<mdke> ok, good night all
<Burgwork> night
<Burgundavia> ok, what law says that as soon as I start gardening, it has to rain?
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: I believe one by a little irish gent named murphy
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: Murphy's ?
<Burgundavia> at least the stuff I just transplanted will get watered
<nickrud> there was a mail on the doc list today about how to mention installing software on the wiki
<nickrud> and a supposed controversy :)
<Burgundavia> nickrud, yep, that was me
<nickrud> :) Should I look to do that? Me personally, I'd like to just explain cut & paste
<Burgundavia> yes, you should
<nickrud> hahahaha
<Burgundavia> because if you don't, I will, and working makes me cranky :)
<nickrud> But seriously, I'm sorta trying to make that page look somewhat like the docs within the limits of the wiki.
<nickrud> I can try the cut & paste thing? I was joking, sort of
<Burgundavia> be careful with cut and pase
<nickrud> oh, out of context, yes, no apt-get, right?
<Burgundavia> actually, no mentioning any way to install
<nickrud> I remember the discussion from a while back. I have no real opinion myself about it. 
<Burgundavia> then good
<Burgundavia> you can implement my opinion :)
<nickrud> So, what I'll do is finish this cleanup, and create a restrictednew page, and try that there
<Burgundavia> like I said, if you don't do it tonight, I am going to do it
<Burgundavia> on the actual page
<nickrud> nothing like forceful movement :)
<Burgundavia> clears the bowels great, don't it?
<nickrud> Ok, how about this: I'm gonna go hands off tonight, and see some what you've altered. I'll try to carry thru afterwards
<Burgundavia> sure
<nickrud> Nothing like making a major change on the major page :) I get the willies myself
<Burgundavia> I long ago learned it was better to be bold and face the fire than the other way around
<Burgundavia> just ask any of the many people i have disagreed with... :0
<Burgundavia> :), rather
<nickrud> hah. 
<nickrud> So, I'll go bar hopping tonight, and see how much cleanup I'll have left. Top down thru flash
<nickrud> Java still needs it's own page, by the way
<nickrud> anyway, thanks Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> nickrud, np
<nickrud> Oh, one more question: are the icons on the IconPage public domain? I was considering looking for a kde icon to get the attention of the kde people, and couldn't find one that was definitely public domain. I didn't see anything on tuomas's page about licensing
<Burgundavia> nickrud, afaik, no
<Burgundavia> tbh, the icons are mostly useless
<nickrud> Proper icon choice grabs the right people's attention
<Burgundavia> the icons enforce too much whitespace around them
<nickrud> but boy, do they screw formatting
<nickrud> I'll look at making smaller ones, but not tonight. Have fun :)
<Burgundavia> wow, Mark is harsh to the art tem
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: well there was a nasty debate on the voting process that didnt produce a lot and just wasted some more time...
<ajmitch> release, 1 week & counting down?
<ajmitch> and they still haven't agreed on art?
<ajmitch> hm
<ajmitch> harsh but fair :)
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, yes I agree
<LaserJock> wow, that is a really solid ack of mdke's work. awesome
<Burgundavia> he also says some very nice things about mdke 
<ajmitch> yeah, that's really good to see
<Burgundavia> it would be nice if Canonical picks up mdke full time
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostfixCompleteVirtualMailSystemHowto?action=diff&rev2=64&rev1=63 <-- the first of many
<jsgotangco> yeah mdke did very good in organising the documentation from start to translation
<Burgundavia> the rest of us bums just stood around and kibbitzed
* ajmitch did that for devel work :)
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco just woke up much later during devel
<ajmitch> hehe
* jsgotangco have been rather busy with asterisk work
<LaserJock> I've been around, but I'm not much use documenting stuff I don't use :-/
<jsgotangco> its okay we have time to slave around for eft
<ajmitch> who's cracking the whip?
<LaserJock> I am, I need help on the packaging guide
<LaserJock> :-)
<Burgundavia> hmm, we need somebody to pick up Myth for edgy
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: did the server guide get much traction?
<Burgundavia> the instructions on the wiki are insanely complicated
<jsgotangco> ajmitch: its actually quite good in its current form, but can be further expanded
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, have you ever used phpmyadmin?
<jsgotangco> yes
<ajmitch> yes, I have
<Burgundavia> can one of you check over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallMythOnUbuntu in a sec?
<jsgotangco> checking
<Burgundavia> it asks you to create a root password
<ajmitch> ah
<jsgotangco> that looks sooo complicated and too much of an effort for a dvr
<Burgundavia> tell me about it
<Burgundavia> hence my earlier comment
<ajmitch> I don't have a usual phpmyadmin/mysql setup though
<LaserJock> dang, I think that has more CLI action then the packaging guide
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> brb need to check amd64 daily for edubuntu
<jsgotangco> oohh temper temper
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: ?
<jsgotangco> art list
<jsgotangco> heh
<ajmitch> ah
* ajmitch looks for the car crash
<jsgotangco> yeah 
<ajmitch> more than just a little temper :)
<ajmitch> this guy was in full-on rant mode
<mgalvin> temper temper indeed
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> does Mark get involved a lot with artwork?
<mgalvin> he seems to at very lest be active on the -art list
<jsgotangco> not so much with actual art but with suggestions...
<jsgotangco> and trying to drive some people
<jsgotangco> but its not working for quite some time
<ajmitch> when a group needs driven, he does it
<LaserJock> well, I just wonder if people are seeing it as dictatorial
<LaserJock> we had the little Win95 background thing in Edubuntu
<ajmitch> of course some people will
<LaserJock> I wonder if he just thought that the artwork was taking to long to get finalized
<ajmitch> far far too long
<jsgotangco> yeah
* jsgotangco remembers LCA
<ajmitch> UIFreeze was meant to be in april
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: win95?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: chalkboard
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i used to call it the berlin wall
<ajmitch> distro people aren't happy about having to get artwork changes so very late
<LaserJock> nobody in Edubuntu likes it and we even have a great replacement, but nobody at Canonical listened
<ajmitch> release candidate is meant to be just that - an image with no forseen changes to it
<LaserJock> that was a little disheartening
<LaserJock> it is always a little tough when sabdfl asserst the d and doesn't seem so b ;-)
<ajmitch> heh
<Madpilot> hi all
<jsgotangco> hi
<Madpilot> anyone else on the artwork list?
<jsgotangco> :)
<theCore> Madpilot: me
<LaserJock> I'm watching the show too
<Madpilot> ...the whole mess on what artwork packages to choose... gah
* ajmitch is watching it via gmane
<LaserJock> ajmitch: what is the URL for that?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you want to play with some css and html for Ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> whatever happened to klepas?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, possibly, later this evening. What for?
<ajmitch> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.artwork
<LaserJock> ajmitch: k, thanks
<robotgeek> hello doc ppl
<jsgotangco> hi
<robotgeek> looking to see if i can find any apt-get references/help with the wiki move
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: cleaning up catergoryDocumentation
<LaserJock> oh, yeah
<LaserJock> sweet, I just got a desktop moin with 1.5.3 going. It has nice moin->docbook
<robotgeek> isn't it just double-click and done?
<LaserJock> not on OS X
<robotgeek> moinX
<LaserJock> moinX isn't 1.5
<LaserJock> it's 1.3 I think
<robotgeek> isn't python the same
<robotgeek> python moin.py and you would have it running?
<LaserJock> sort of, they  have instructions on turning it into a .app, really cool
<LaserJock> and then I installed PyXML
<robotgeek> i have mine running in a screen, serving stuff over on port 8080
<LaserJock> not earth shattering for sure
<robotgeek> i havent used os x in a long time now, i have forgotten
<LaserJock> anyway, desktop moinway easier than mediawiki
<robotgeek> true that
<LaserJock> * is way
<LaserJock> I did do it put I had to do this interesting MAMP setup
<robotgeek> how did it run?
<robotgeek> i hope we move over to moin 1.5 for our new wiki. it has interesting scripts, like gantt charts/progress bars
<LaserJock> it works ok, but it wasn't as easy to set up as Moin
<LaserJock> I don't really know anything about MySQL and then you have to load up everything just to get the wiki going
<robotgeek> yeah, kind of painful
<robotgeek> i am using moin for my jobsearch
<LaserJock> seemed like overkill for me just using it for a glorified sticky note
<robotgeek> heh
<Madpilot> for a glorified sticky note/wiki thing, have a look at Tomboy
<LaserJock> Madpilot: yeah, but I'm not usually on Linux
<Madpilot> ick. Poor LaserJock. ;)
<LaserJock> I like Tomboy, but I wanted a little bit more
<robotgeek> moin works great over internet too :)
<LaserJock> Madpilot: yes, yes. but now at least I have a Dapper box about 5 feet away from my desk
<LaserJock> robotgeek: exactly
<LaserJock> I think having the GUI editor is pretty worthwile for us to have the help.u.c wiki be 1.5
<robotgeek> that too!
<robotgeek> though i rarely use it (prefer vim for all my editing)
<LaserJock> yeah, but those poor forums people :-)
<robotgeek> it definetly is useful. 
* robotgeek checks the apt:/ kioslave in konq
* Madpilot starts and the bottom of CatDocs, and starts to work upward toward daylight
* robotgeek goes to bed
* Madpilot marvels at some of the oddball unmaintained docs lurking in CatDocs...
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/audacity <-- would anyone miss this if it just got deleted?
<Madpilot> this looks like it should be rolled into a larger page - perhaps one of Edubuntu's? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkstationDefinitions
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, just google to make certain there are no external links
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveryFromBadInstallCD?highlight=%284.10%29 <-- verdict? death or not?
<Madpilot> that looks more like a bug report than a wiki page. 
<Burgundavia> I will nuke it
<Burgundavia> anybody with experience in digital video here?
<Burgundavia> hmm, we no longer ship a firefox plugin
<Burgundavia> I cannot tell you how much easier it is to document now that warty is dead
<ajmitch> heh
<Burgundavia> warty to hoary is probably the biggest jump in terms of changes
* ajmitch didn't get involved in development until after warty release
<Burgundavia> I started working on Ubuntu with bang and whole lot of cash of mine upfront
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> how so?
<Burgundavia> I flew myself to Spain for Mataro
<ajmitch> ah right
<Burgundavia> that was a 2k trip
<ajmitch> I was in .au when I got started, working in a hoary chroot on my desktop in .nz
<Madpilot> because Burgundavia is possibly insane ;)
<ajmitch> Madpilot: agreed
<ajmitch> considering he went to UBZ as well..
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, actually it was C who convinced to me to jump for it
<Burgundavia> UBZ cost me about $60
<ajmitch> that's not too bad
<Madpilot> well, she's insane too, of course. ;)
<ajmitch> UBZ cost me a little more
<ajmitch> including a laptop, etc ;)
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Madpilot> ajmitch, was it you who got a bunch of stuff stolen @ UBZ? (vague memories of blog reading during UBZ...)
<ajmitch> maybe I'll go to the conf at the end of the year, depends what I'm doing for work
<ajmitch> Madpilot: I was one of the 3
<Madpilot> ouch
<ajmitch> jdub & spiv also lost laptops
<Burgundavia> you were the first
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> sadly
<Burgundavia> jdub and spiv were foolish
<jsgotangco> lol
<ajmitch> I got over it
* jsgotangco dunno how to react if he lost a lot of stuff abroad
<ajmitch> I'm a bit more cautious now
<Burgundavia> I always took my laptop to my room at lunch and never had an issue
<jsgotangco> i always bring a backpack
<ajmitch> any of the doc team going to paris apart from Laser_away?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco is going
<ajmitch> great
<Burgundavia> I will sadly be in New Orleans for work
* ajmitch will be stuck in dunedin, enjoying the winter weather
<Burgundavia> just pray for no early hurricanes
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, practice your swimming before you go! </tasteless>
<Burgundavia> good thing I am white </tasteless>
<Madpilot> OK, your tastelessness trumps mine by a long, long way... :P
<ajmitch> I'm impressed
<jsgotangco> im expected more for edubuntu though
<ajmitch> I didn't think you could all sink that low :)
<Burgundavia> we are related, after all
<Burgundavia> in fact, I think we are the only relatives working on ubuntu
<ajmitch> nope
<ajmitch> I've seen slomo's brother around
<Burgundavia> what nick?
<ajmitch> on launchpad, can't remember what irc nick
<ajmitch> so I don't know if he's doing much work or just a user
<ajmitch> christian-d on LP
<ajmitch> Hirion on irc
<ajmitch> ok, time for beer..
<Burgundavia> we should get karma for wiki edits and svn commits
<jsgotangco> true
<Burgundavia> otherwise I am never going to catch robitaille :)
<Madpilot> this looks like another lost bug report instead of a wiki page - kill it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDateBug
<Burgundavia> the bug it references has not been closed yet
<Madpilot> ah, OK. I'll leave it
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  it's not by dumping 65 bugs emails on me to submit that will help decrease my karma :)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, oh, in random other news, the Pico de Gallo are nice and spicy
<Burgundavia> robitaille, I hate bugs. It gives me nasty flashbacks to Microserve
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, good. (that sounded like it should be a code word for something terribly profound, actually... keep it up and you'll have the NSA getting nervous...)  ;)
<Burgundavia> heh
<Madpilot> night all
<Burgundavia> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode
<Burgundavia> take a peak a number one
<Burgundavia> sweet!
<Burgundavia> take a peek at number one, I should say
<jsgotangco> nice that's mikko
<Burgundavia> not that #3 will now be the 3rd backup tool financed by google via soc
<jsgotangco> n-m dialup is neat
<Burgundavia> I was just about to comment on that
<Burgundavia> hopefully someone also got NM static
<Burgundavia> Inkscape got a PDF export one
<Burgundavia> soc info is coming out right now
<jsgotangco> coolll
<rob> thats good news
<Burgundavia> hopefully Amaranth got in
<jsgotangco> where would it be located?
<rob> I looked at the moin -> docbook converter but its much better being done by the person familiar[H[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B	[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[D[D[3~f[D with the code
<rob> eek, what happen there?
<Burgundavia> uhh, what was taht?
<rob> no idea
<Burgundavia> robitaille, incoming!
<robitaille> just when I was happy to be down to 40 left :)
<Burgundavia> just another 6
<Burgundavia> oh wait, there are a few more
<Burgundavia> well, students just got told
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> sudden traffic spike in channe;
<Burgundavia> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors <-- hmm, good idea
<Burgundavia> nothing public yet, that I can find at least
<ajmitch> not yet, we'll see soon
<Burgundavia> chris says it might take a few days to get the websites up
<ajmitch> there's no big rush
* ajmitch needs to check typing after beer
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: I can say that my proposal was accepted, anyway
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, cool. What was it?
<ajmitch> wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkAuthentication
<ajmitch> though I've got to update the spec for the server-side as well
<Burgundavia> very cool
<Burgundavia> oops
<Burgundavia> you may not be accepted after all
<Burgundavia> they sent the accepted mail to everybody
<ajmitch> hah
<ajmitch> it's listed as accepted on my page
<Burgundavia> should have enlisted mdke, he now knows everything about spamming :)
<Burgundavia> ah
<ajmitch> I saw that first
<ajmitch> poor students 
<ajmitch> building up their hopes, only to be dashed against a rock...
<Burgundavia> that is the worst
<Burgundavia> hmm, website is correct
<gavcos> Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me. I edited a page on the Ubuntu wiki, but can't remember which one!
<Burgundavia> or not
<jsgotangco> lol
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> well, mjg59 made it into SoC as a student for GNOME
<ajmitch> funny that
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> doing what?
<ajmitch> bluetooth magic
<jsgotangco> wooooooooooooooooooo
<ajmitch> he's probably got enough laptops with bluetooth support by now
<jsgotangco> hmm no rsync result..do we have RC?
<Burgundavia> I didn't realize that mjg59 had worked on dasher bf
<jsgotangco> he did
<jsgotangco> the gnome-bluetooth list is actually active lately and bastien did some proposals that were wicked
<Burgundavia> very cool
<Burgundavia> I have little use for bluetooth, so I know next to nothing about it
* jsgotangco uses it a lot
<jsgotangco> i really liked the way mjg59 did bluetooth for toshiba sets, turning it on with the wlan shortcut key 
<Burgundavia> sweet ekiga/iax2 got accepted
<Burgundavia> http://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode2006
<Burgundavia> hmm, two nautilus performance projects and two telepathy ones
<mdke> does anyone else think that StartersGuide on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation in the "After you've installed Ubuntu" section doesn't actually add anything that isn't already on the page?
<mdke> morning btw
<Burgundavia> morning
<Burgundavia> ugh, startersguide
<Burgundavia> that is a rebranded effort by nun a long time ago
<Burgundavia> it can die
<mdke> Burgundavia: hang on though
<mdke> someone has been working on it
<Burgundavia> that page was created by them
<mdke> we need to explain why it doesn't add anything that isn't on UserDoc already
<Burgundavia> hmm, I will think of something, but I need to sleep
<mdke> good night
<jsgotangco> good idea
<aquarius_work> Is there an installation manual for dapper (even if unreleased) anywhere accessible?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/
<aquarius_work> ah, darn; you still need a Linux box to prepare a USB stick for installation of dapper.
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<mdke> more opinions about the tabs please
* mdke goes home
<mgalvin> DapperRC is all set in case anyone has time to review/proof it (its not to long, this is all i have time for ATM)
<mgalvin> trappist: ^^^
<trappist> what's DapperRC?  and where?
<mgalvin> wiki
<mgalvin> trappist: like the flight tours
<trappist> ah!.  gotcha.
<mgalvin> :)
<mdke> evening
<Burgwork> salut mdke 
<mdke> hiya corey
<Burgwork> highvoltage and ogra were rumbling about us not using bzr
<mdke> rumbling eh?
<Burgwork> I won't say grumbling, because it wasn't
<mdke> :)
* highvoltage rumbles about hot chocolate and the lack thereof in this house atm
<Burgwork> rumbling, like two old, tired rocks talking about the wind and water
<mdke> haha
* mdke has made stylesheets for the old 5.10 stuff and is uploading the results
<mdke> man sounder is low quality nowadays
<trappist> yeah I've noticed that too
<mdke> so much dross
<mdke> and people get drawn into the trollage too
<trappist> I pretty much quit reading it, but I haven't unsubscribed (yet)
<mdke> Laser_away: does your printed copy of the packaging guide have any problems with cross references page numbers and white spaces afterwards?
<Laser_away> mdke: kinda depends on wat you mean by white space
<trappist> mgalvin: I proofread DapperRC.  thanks for hilighting me on it :)
<Laser_away> I see at least one place where the ]  sort of overwrites a .
<mgalvin> trappist: thanks, np :)
<mdke> Laser_away: that's all I need to know. How bad is it?
<Burgwork> hmm
<mdke> Laser_away: iz fop bug. I can't get it fixed before release
<mdke> it's quite prominent in the desktop guide
<Laser_away> mdke: well it's about half-and-half between ones that are OK and ones that are tight. There is really only 1 or maybe 2 that actually overwrite the next character
<mdke> Laser_away: so we can get away with it, I suppose
<mdke> in the meantime I'll report the bug and if they fix it we can update the lulu stuff
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I mean it would be great to fix but it isn't earth shattering for the most part. At least for the packaging guide
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> mdke: how well advertised is the wiki move?
<mdke> LaserJock: so so at the moment. I sent an email about it yesterday to most major mailing lists
<mdke> well, sounder, -users, -devel, -do
<mdke> c*
<mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/ <-- new purty 5.10 docs
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, well #edubuntu was under the impression that it was a closed wiki
<mdke> LaserJock: the channel as a whole, or a specific individual?
<LaserJock> i.e. changes done via svn repo
<LaserJock> mdke: well, ogra and cbx33 which translates to mostly the channel as a whole :-)
<mdke> feel free to correct that impression
<mdke> they didn't read my email
<mdke> "Community based work on this documentation will continue there."
<LaserJock> I tried to do my best. I still don't quite understand all of the details
<mdke> it's pretty simple. The wiki is moving, that's all that will change.
<mdke> then qualify that by saying that only the wiki team will be able to delete or rename pages
<LaserJock> but they wondered why the (edu)(k)ubuntu wikis were merged if we were just going to split them
<LaserJock> and they say that it will be really confusing to users
<mdke> meh. Tell them to read the spec
<LaserJock>  but I said that the point was to have 1 url for help, help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> I don't see how having documentation in one place which actually has a name related to documentation is going to confuse users
<LaserJock> and to seperate user docs from development and specs
<mdke> if anything, having documentation on a place called a "wiki" with loads of development and community noise is confusing
<LaserJock> I think I helped, I hope so
<Burgwork> given there is basically no kubuntu stuff on the wiki
<LaserJock> but ogra didn't want any edubuntu docs going over because he thought that it was only for finished (i.e. only doc team can touch) docs
<LaserJock> I think I explained things ok. I hope so anyway
<mdke> LaserJock: well, you should correct him, and ask him to read things properly before flying off the handle. Anyway, we discussed this with highvoltage quite carefully so things should be clear
<LaserJock> I always feel so incompetent with these things
<highvoltage> mdke: who flew off the handle? me?
<LaserJock> mdke: I think I explained ok, I think they get it now
<highvoltage> ah, caught up. ok
<mdke> highvoltage: no, no
<mdke> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: I just wanted to verify that what I said was right
<highvoltage> LaserJock: i think it will make more sense once the doc page is up, i don't think it's that big a deal, really
<LaserJock> highvoltage: my only concern was that ogra said he didn't want any docs going there, that and he had a fairly significant misconception of what was being done
<LaserJock> I'm all good, I just want to make sure everybody is on the same page :-)
* mdke nods
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ogra's concern is mostly that our docs will go somewhere where it's hard to edit, but yes, i agree that it's important to have everyone on the same page :)
<Burgwork> mdke, you are going to paris, no?
<mdke> at the moment no edubuntu related pages are in the move, because nothing in tagged with CategoryDocumentation, afaics
<Burgwork> mdke, they just moved all their tags to EdubuntuDocumentation
<mdke> except for HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters/StandAloneIntro
<mdke> Burgwork: no, unlikely to be going to paris
<LaserJock> mdke: that's because ogra said to remove them 
<mdke> ffs
<mdke> he could simply have asked me or posted to the -doc list
<LaserJock> mdke: there wouldn't be much anyway, it really isn't a big deal
<LaserJock> mdke: we can manuall move later?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, but you'll lose the page history
<LaserJock> true
<LaserJock> highvoltage: do you think the LTSP stuff is worth moving?
<LaserJock> I think that was the main thing
<mdke> don't forget that none of the links will break
<highvoltage> LaserJock: not really, since it's applicable to ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu too
<highvoltage> mdke: i forgot that a bit earlier ;)
<mdke> highvoltage: the question is whether it is documentation or not, not whether it's applicable to other derivatives. If it's documentation, i think it should move, if not, it should stay
<highvoltage> mdke: i suppose it's documentation then
<mdke> you don't think it should move?
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm thinking that Edubuntu is worried about breaking up their pages, their stuff seems to be smaller and better organized than the wiki in general
<mdke> these are the sorts of questions I'd hoped people will think about these things
<mdke> LaserJock: well, that's why I sent the email. They can think about it.
<mdke> what do people think about the presence/absence of "LTS" in the 6.06 tab?
* Burgwork personally thinks the LTS is dumb...
<LaserJock> well, we can't change that
<Burgwork> nope
<mdke> me too, but it's a question of whether it is part of the version number or not
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~$ cat /etc/lsb-release
<mdke> DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu
<mdke> DISTRIB_RELEASE=6.06
<mdke> DISTRIB_CODENAME=dapper
<mdke> DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 6.06 LTS"
<LaserJock> I'd say no, but you might want a more authoritative voice than me
<crimsun> according to DISTRIB_RELEASE it's not part of the version number
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> yeah
<Burgwork> that is due to a mistake
<mdke> let's ask in -devel
<Burgwork> apparently a lot of code depends on _RELEASE being 6.06
<mdke> ah
<Burgwork> they talked about changing it yesterday in #ubuntu-devel
<jeffsch> i'm running the server iso from may 22
<jeffsch> DISTRIB_RELEASE=6.06LTS
<LaserJock> ugg
<LaserJock> why would they have 6.06LTS when there is no 6.06 ?
<jeffsch> must be a marketing thing
<Burgwork> http://www.ernestdelgado.com/wiki/index.php/Drupal
<mdke> well, they seem ok with removing it in -devel
<crimsun> jeffsch: that was changed for parsing reasons, you need to update
<LaserJock> Burgwork: hmm, interesting
<mdke> ok, mdz wants the LTS
<robotgeek> http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/ is very interesting 
<mdke> 20:27:21 < mdz> especially when listing a sequence of versions, since then it's clear which are long-term releases
<LaserJock> mdke: I guess, although I still don't see why anybody would care about LTS other than businesses
<robotgeek> LaserJock: then again, we dont want to explain that both are the same
<LaserJock> what are the same?
<LaserJock> oh, I see, nvm
<jeffsch> yeah, but do we have to have LTS in the tab on help.ubuntu.com?
<LaserJock> mdz says yes, I guess
<jeffsch> it's really no big deal, either way
<jeffsch> it's just that little bit more consistent... :)
<mgalvin> and i bothered to write an email :-/
* mdke is not sure what the result of that was...
<mdke> we're going with mdz?
<jeffsch> i suppose 6.06 would look weird if people are accustomed to 6.06 LTS everywhere else
<LaserJock> I think for consistency it probably would be better to add the LTS
<LaserJock> even though I still wonder if there will be another LTS or not
<jeffsch> but then 6.06 LTS looks weird when compared to the other tabs
<jeffsch> if forced to choose though, i would say 6.06 LTS
<crimsun> think of it this way: /etc/issue contains the "LTS" string, so that's a strong vote for consistency
<mdke> yes, I think consistency is the strongest consideration
<mgalvin> LaserJock: there will be another LTS in 2 years iirc
<mgalvin> *i think* i heard that at one point (don't take my word on that though)
<LaserJock> mgalvin: well, a lot can change in 2 years and I was told that they are to be released whenever the start align and it "feels" right ;-)
<mdke> yes
<mgalvin> :)
<mdke> we can always change things later
<Burgwork> the key thing about the web is that it can be changed later
<LaserJock> very true
<jeffsch> haha. there's a joke in there somewhere...
<jeffsch> "I'll do it tomorrow..."
<mgalvin> haha :)
* Burgwork goes back to sleep
<Burgwork> see the stunning news on planet ubuntu
<mdke> wow, that sounds very good
<mdke> Burgwork: ah, just a commission proposal, gotta get it past the heavies first
<Burgwork> it has to pass parliament, which is not hard, given how they voted last time
<mdke> right, parliament isn't hard
<mdke> but the council might be
<Burgwork> European gov't stikes me as terribly non-democratic
<mdke> it's quite a strange system.
<mdke> whether it is democratic or not is a classic essay question for EC law exams ;)
<Burgwork> right, law, thought about doing that once. Then I stabbed myself in the eye a few times to get over it :)
<LaserJock> Ubucon!
<mdke> mmmm law
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I wish I could go
<LaserJock> I'm about 4-5hrs drive and my wife's aunt lives there
<mdke> nice
<Burgwork> hmm, I might come
<Burgwork> it would only be about $600 to come
<Burgwork> 18th is also my birthday
<LaserJock> cool
<Burgwork> $285 for a plane and about $100 for a ferry to seattle, plus two nights
<LaserJock> a lot cheaper than Paris
<Burgwork> yep and doesn't conflict with anything
<theCore> ubucon?
<Burgwork> two day Ubuntu con at Google in Aug.
<theCore> who is going there?
<Burgwork> LaserJock is and I am thinking about it
<mdke> what's it about?
<crimsun> . o O { dang, how does jordan find the cash for these trips? }
<Burgwork> Ubuntu people drinking on Google's tab
<Burgwork> crimsun, he is being funded to Paris
<crimsun> (right)
<Burgwork> and MOuntain view is 4/5 hours away
<LaserJock> crimsun: dude, I just found out about it, but I drive over to the bay area a far bit
<LaserJock> crimsun: and my wife has an aunt living there, so it would be like the cost of the gas to drive over there
<theCore> what's going at Paris?
<LaserJock> theCore: the Ubuntu Developer Summit for edgy
<mdke> ok, my todo list is now nearly finished. Now to build & upload the 6.06 website
<theCore> LaserJock: oh, nice
<LaserJock> crimsun: trust me, I have no cash
<theCore> Ah la France!
<theCore> I wonder how much a trip there cost
<crimsun> LaserJock: don't worry, I'm simply jealous of your freedom to travel :-)
<mdke> can I export from my own local svn tree?
* mdke tries
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, sort of, too many of these and my wife is going to start having problems. but the Ubucon thing is about the time of our anniversary so maybe I can throw in an extra day to sweeten the deal :-)
<mdke> rock, you can
<mdke> gotta love svn
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm going to send a list of possible Ubucon topics to their list. Anything you think is important? I've never been to one of these things
<mdke> I've never heard of it
<LaserJock> it just started this week so ...
<theCore> who's working on the server guide?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, how to get laid while working on Ubuntu? :0
<Burgwork> :)
<mdke> theCore: bhuvan, trappist, me
<LaserJock> Burgwork: you might have to handle that one, mine would be short, and boring :-)
<theCore> okay, I got CVS stuff that I written
<Burgwork> LaserJock, are you not married?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, but that doesn't mean anything ;-)
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> I am sadly single
<crimsun> Burgwork: not to stray too far off-topic, but it's not a matter of that, it's a matter of finding alternatives. :-)
<Burgwork> sorry to be crude, but the hand is not enough
<crimsun> err, no, I'm referring to more pressing things such as bugfixing. :-)
<Burgwork> I never did say what I would do with that hand
<mdke> nicely done
<crimsun> hand? pssht, I use my feet for typing
<mdke> the flair bug fixers use their feet for triaging bugs on one machine, and hands for fixing them on another
<LaserJock> oh my
<LaserJock> anyway, I was sort of wondering if there might be a good doc team topic for conferences
<theCore> crimsun: what? you got prehensile toes, wha ;)
<crimsun> LaserJock: there's always history, current practice, challenges in said practices, and future work
<mdke> how to contribute!
<crimsun> definitely that, which is ultimately most important
<LaserJock> I'm not sure of what they want but this is my list currently:
<LaserJock> * Ubuntu Governance and Community involvment
<LaserJock> * What is the MOTU and how can I help
<LaserJock> * Bug reporting 101
<LaserJock> * Contributions Make Ubuntu Happen: how to make a difference
<mdke> sounds good
<LaserJock> k
<crimsun> I would see it as two big things: 1) What sets Ubuntu apart from $distro? 2) How $you are part of Ubuntu
<crimsun> possibly emphasizing the "my humanity is inextricably linked to yours"-participation is the tie
<Burgwork> crimsun, how very matrix-y of you
<crimsun> eh, I teach, this stuff is second nature
<mdke> there is no Ubuntu
<mdke> spoon, I mean spoon
<theCore> mdke: could take a look to my patch?
<theCore> could you*
<mdke> theCore: we've frozen the docs for dapper. What's it about?
<theCore> mdke: it isn't version dependent
<mdke> theCore: what isn't?
<theCore> mdke: mostly about Apache
<mdke> theCore: can you explain in a bit more detail?
<theCore> I made a section called "Convenient Settings" for Apache. It tell how to add yourself into the www-data group so you can modify the files in /var/www
<mdke> iirc our section on apache advises to use virtual hosts, rather than using /var/www, right?
<theCore> let me check
<mdke> i hope so anyway
<theCore> it does, be it's kinda unclear 
<mdke> yeah, the paragraphs are far too large and there are not enough easy steps
<mdke> theCore: the thing about accepting patches now is that really we haven't set out what we want to achieve for edgy, it's difficult to work before that discussion takes place
<theCore> so everyone is holding for Edgy?
<mdke> yeah, basically
<theCore> what could I do then? Should I continue to procrastinate?
<Burgwork> theCore, yep, I like that plan
<mdke> theCore: something that would be useful would be to collect together some ideas about the server guide. If we are going to continue it for edgy, it needs lots of structural work, I think
<LaserJock> theCore: and you can also put items you want in the packaging guide on w.u.c./UbuntuPackagingGuide ;-)
<theCore> mdke: is there a wiki page for that?
<mdke> theCore: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide 
<theCore> LaserJock: what to get more MOTU experience before. Hey, wait that a good plan
<mdke> it might need some reworking
<theCore> I want *
<theCore> "Server Guide does not mean Admin Guide", What does that mean?
<mdke> it means it is not a guide for system administration, it is a guide for setting up servers
<mdke> often the two are the same, not always
<LaserJock> mdke: do you foresee much reworking of the DGs?
<mdke> that page is really out of date tho
<mdke> LaserJock: i hope not. Maybe adding things, printing, modems, wireless, some stuff from the book maybe
<mdke> but I hope the existing stuff will stay as much the same as possible, it will make life easier on the translators
<theCore> mdke, any examples of something that would be offtopic for the Server Guide?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, make our life easy please ;-)
<LaserJock> hmm, and I thought our job was to give the translators' lives miserable ;-)
<WaterSevenUb> :)
<mdke> theCore: erm. dunno. anything involving configuring the system which isn't server related
<LaserJock> theCore: probably also administration rather than setup, is that right mdke?
<mdke> guess so
<theCore> so what an Admin Guide would looks like?
<mdke> it would be about how to administer your computer
<mdke> but we don't do one
<theCore> mdke: find your description a little bit recursive ;)
<LaserJock> theCore: just write some stuff and put it on the ML/wiki
<mdke> theCore: I don't know what you mean
<theCore> wouldn't be a good idea integrate an Admin Section into the SG and the DG
<mdke> you mean it would, or it wouldn't?
<theCore> it would
* theCore curse his poor english
<mdke> there are some such sections already
<mdke> for example, how to install applications (in both), configuring the system (in desktop guide), etc
<mdke> where appropriate, they are there
<theCore> is it okay if I remove `Server Guide does not mean Admin Guide'
<theCore> from the Wiki page?
<mdke> why?
<mdke> maybe it's not necessary any more... but it's quite important that the server guide is a _server_ guide
<mdke> (i think)
<theCore> that what it is, I think you need to administrate your server in a way or another
<mdke> yes, but there are a lot of other things that fall into the category of "administration" and have nothing to do with a server, as we've described
<theCore> mdke: why someone would put something about desktop admin. into the Server guide?
<mdke> theCore: they wouldn't, but they might put something in there about general admin.
<mdke> sometimes that will be appropriate, I suppose
<mdke> other times it might not, dunno
<theCore> basically building a server is a SysAdmin task
<mdke> theCore: the server guide is not intended to be "how to build a server", it is more "how to run services, on any computer, including a desktop"
<mdke> so you can install apache on a server
<mdke> or run samba
<mdke> but you can do it on a desktop too
<mdke> anyway, these are things we can think about and talk about
<theCore> ah, that a better definition
<mdke> but not now
<mdke> ok, 6.06 section of the website is updated too
* mdke goes to bed
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<Burgundavia> ok, RestrictedFormats is now translated into new installation method
<Madpilot> so Matt East got custarded on IRC, did he? ;)
<crimsun> eh?
<Burgundavia> salut highvoltage, Madpilot 
<Madpilot> are you on the sounder ML, crimsun?
<highvoltage> salut, Burgundavia!
<Madpilot> hi Burg
<crimsun> Madpilot: no, I'm already drowning in ML hell.
<Madpilot> crimsun, ah, OK. There was/is a thread there about DMA; someone said that anyone saying that DMA wasn't enabled on SATA drives would get covered in custard, so Matt announced that his SATA drives didn't have DMA
<Madpilot> ;)
<Burgundavia> it is a bug in hdparm, not reporting dma on sata drives
<Madpilot> yes, but mostly just a silly moment on sounder
<Madpilot> ...where has "Michael T. Richter" come from, and has he always been this abrasive on sounder?
<crimsun> "He has always been very outspoken."
<Burgundavia> there are a few like him on sounder
<Burgundavia> that guy scott (not Keybuk) is just as bad
<crimsun> Something we could learn to be is a bit more gracious.
<crimsun> *we in general terms
<Madpilot> OK, "outspoken", not "abrasive" - but still...
<crimsun> oh no, I agree he's abrasive
<crimsun> I just go into euphemistic mode often (probably due to my profession)
<Madpilot> this is another DMA thread on sounder - the actual devs are saying "File bugs so it 'just works' and we don't need a GUI" and several others are going on at length about GUI design... 
<Madpilot> it would be more amusing if it weren't apparently a total waste of everyone's time
<Burgundavia> ah, but you have no learned the first lesson of bikeshedding!
<Burgundavia> ignore all useful comments and keep talking about the colour
<Madpilot> heh
<Burgundavia> hmm, so if I can get the time off, I am going to go to Ubucon in Aug.
<Burgundavia> probably wil only cost me about $600
<Madpilot> that's the Paris conf?
<Burgundavia> nope, the one in Mountain View, CA
<Madpilot> oh, the Google one
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> google's new slogan: "We're only evil in China" ;)
<Burgundavia> heh
<poningru> hehe
<poningru> so wait next planning conf is in paree?
<poningru> err paris?
<Madpilot> yes. 3rd week of June, I think
<poningru> nice
<poningru> what will it be called?
<Madpilot> it doesn't appear to have been given a snappy name yet
<poningru> like ubz and udu for the last two
<poningru> hmm ic
<dsas> Has UFK not been endorsed?
<Madpilot> UIP - Ubuntu In Paris? UCL - Ubuntu in the City of Light (or that last one one French)
<poningru> dsas: what does that stand for?
<dsas> Ubuntu French Kiss
<poningru> bwhahahaha
<poningru> ubuntu french connection?
<poningru> orr just the French Connection
<poningru> or the Floss connection?
<Madpilot> the Free (as in Freedom) French? (vive la resistance, etc) ;)
<poningru> hehe true
<Madpilot> need sleep - up stupidly early tomorrow morning. Later, all.
<Burgundavia> cya
<mdke> morning
<jsgotangco> hi
<Burgundavia> morning mdke 
* mdke swears at sounder
<mdke> I can't believe there is such a long discussion over something that clearly works very well out of the box on dapper
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> people are just opinionated
<Burgundavia> no, the bikeshed must be blue!
<mdke> Michael Richter is a pain in the neck
<mdke> so rude
<Burgundavia> night
<Kamping_Kaiser> what does the docteam use to make po files of its docbook? i have been told poxml is good, but i thought i would ask
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: xml2po
<mdke> from gnome-doc-utils
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, thanks
<jbailey> Hi!  For the ReleaseNotes last year, various folks just added to them and edit them.
<jbailey> I notice this year that they're being maintained by the docteam.
<jbailey> What's the best way to submit something that should go in them?
<jbailey> Oh hey, mailing list.
<jbailey> Right, forgot about that. =)
<jsgotangco> hey
<jbailey> Heya Jerome.
<ajmitch> hello jeff, jerome
<jbailey> Hi Andrew
<mdke> jbailey: I think they are being developed on the wiki at DapperReleaseNotes or some such page
<mdke> jbailey: you can just add to that page, I believe
<jbailey> Okay, cool.
<jbailey> I have some notes on making the Pegasos boot correctly.
<jjesse> argh.... why do some developers think the documentation is never good enough
<mdke> who's that?
<jjesse> mornfall on #kubuntu-devel
<jsgotangco> tell him to get involved then
<jjesse> [11:18]  mornfall: Riddell: they would rule more if they had more time for it (eg. being part-time paid by canonical for the work)
<jjesse> i did
<jjesse> [11:20]  mornfall: i definitely think that the doc team is undermanned
<jjesse> [11:20]  bddebian: mornfall: Great idea.  So why don't you get out there and recruit some for us? :-)
<mdke> never heard of him
<jsgotangco> heh
<jjesse> he's the a$$ that wrote adept, i have a very very hard time working w/ him on anything
<jsgotangco> <troll>adept isn't even user friendly </troll>
<mdke> how come he talks about the doc team in such a knowledgeable way when we haven't heard of him?
<jsgotangco> oh i do
<jsgotangco> its just a kde world thing
<mdke> i mean, the doc team has never heard of him
<jsgotangco> heh i'll just brush it off
<jjesse> cause he views that his ideas are the only right ideas and if he didn't think of it then its not right
<mdke> tell him to join this channel and get involved
<jjesse> already did but he's too busy
<jsgotangco> :D
<mdke> sounds like a whinger
<jjesse> a whinner? yes
<jsgotangco> jjesse: are you still going to paris or its not possible?
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i can't i start a new job on this coming tuesday and cant get any time off that soon :(
<jjesse> even after i got sponsorship :(
* jsgotangco sighs
<jjesse> yeah i know
<jjesse> its ironic or sad that as soon as i accepted this new job i had four interview opportunities plus the time in paris
<jjesse> and before i took the job nothing
<Lathiat> when doe sthe 6.06 docs close?
<mdke> Lathiat: 6 April
<Lathiat> ah
<Lathiat> shame
<Lathiat> that for translations and stuff or?
<mdke> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule)
<mdke> Lathiat: translation started after that yeah
<Lathiat> ah
<mdke> and stopped last week
<Lathiat> well i'll i work on what i want for edgy then :)
<mdke> got some ideas?
<Lathiat> mdke: yeh some of the server docs could do with some improvement in particular
<mdke> very much so
<Lathiat> flesh some areas out more, and a few things i think are a bit silly defautl recommendations and that sort of thing
<Lathiat> (e.g. having a default line that exports nfs to *)
<mdke> Lathiat: the server guide needs a lot of love, we'd appreciate your help
<Lathiat> mdke: i was reading it today (i somehow stumbled accross a link) and figured it could do with some love so might get stuck into it
<Lathiat> i didnt evcen realise such nie docs existed :)
<Lathiat> and i cant type today
<mdke> heh
<mdke> look forward to you helping out, definitely
<mdke> the serverguide also needs lots of style love, as well as technical love
<Lathiat> do you need better docbook knowledge to fix the style?
<mdke> Lathiat: not really. i meant that the information can be better presented in general. Smaller paragraphs, step-by-step procedures, less detail where it isn't needed
<Lathiat> ah ok
<mdke> but docbook is really easy to learn anyhow
<Lathiat> i've only done some really basic docbook before but im sure i'll pick it up :)
<mdke> yeah, I reckon you will
<Lathiat> well, night, look forward to helping out. :)
<mdke> cya :)
<jsgotangco> \o/ Lathiat \o/
<Burgwork> does anybody have logs for #ubuntu for yesterday?
<jsgotangco> err fabbione's bot?
<jsgotangco> good night
<crimsun> should be in people/~fabbione/irclogs/,  yes
<Burgwork> no logs from yesterday in #ubuntu-devel
<crimsun> probably a bot hiccup
<crimsun> 21-23 are missing
<Burgwork> yep, the very days  I need
<crimsun> well, 0-byte, rather
<mdke> xubuntu love
<mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/xubuntu/desktopguide/C/
<Burgwork> mdke, it  appears I broke the edubuntu links on doc.u.c
<mdke> Burgwork: heh
<mdke> I'll look now
<mdke> --- Complete. Find outputs at ../build/edubuntu/school-advocacy/
<mdke> Burgwork: ^
<Burgwork> mdke, I don't understand
<mdke> you have to compare the urls
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/SchoolAdvocacy/C/school-advocacy.html
<mdke> ../build/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/school-advocacy.html
<Burgwork> oh, bugger
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm not sure my dir naming was the best for that one
<Burgwork> LaserJock, the captial letters?
<LaserJock> I just went with the convention that edubuntu/ used
<mdke> WIKINAMES IN SVN!
<LaserJock> yeah
* mdke has nothing on his todo list
<LaserJock> what?!
<LaserJock> impossible
<Burgwork> mdke, really, can I give you a few?
<mdke> Burgwork: yeah
<mdke> i have one
<mdke> styling for edubuntu docs
<LaserJock> I need to get mdke packaging so I can have him fix MOTU Science bugs too :-)
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, there is a lack of styling there
<mdke> we can't have that, can we?
<mdke> such a purty website
<Burgwork> mdke, hmm, lets see. My room is kind of dirty and the bathroom needs cleaning. I need to buy a push mower. Come to think about, the kitchen floor needs doing as well :)
<mdke> heh
<Burgwork> you can just pop over tonight and do that?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I thought you had Madpilot around for that ;-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, ummm, no
<LaserJock> Burgwork: is he messier than you?
<Burgwork> that man does not know the meaning of "throw out"
<LaserJock> lol
<Burgwork> I moved him a few weeks ago
<LaserJock> I'm dreading moving, my wife keep everything
<mdke> it's all about not clinging
<LaserJock> I have a garage full of empty boxes that my wife says we will use to move one day
<mdke> clinging to the boxes?
<mdke> that's bad
<Burgwork> my brother makes fun of my "zen like" state when it comes to throwing stuff out
<LaserJock> hehe
<Burgwork> I call it decluttering
<LaserJock> I agree
<LaserJock> I'm fairly messy, I guess I have an anorexic cleaning style
<LaserJock> binge and purge :-)
<Burgwork> that is beulimic, not anorexic
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, your right
<Burgwork> as usual :0
<Burgwork> :)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> my wife had to learn how to diagnose those as a part of her Masters
<Burgwork> mdke, since you have nothing to do, can you fix my breakage for me?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> lazy >_M
<Burgwork> mdke, effecient and managerial
<mdke> whatevaar
<Burgwork> see, that wasn't so bad
<Burgwork> :)
<mdke> exactly the reason you should have done it yourself, lazybones
<LaserJock> mdke: you aren't giving him much of an incentive to do it :-)
<Burgwork> mdke, I have no way of getting svn access here at work, 'cause I don't know my home IP
<Burgwork> LaserJock, it was very sad. I got 1000 USD transfered to my account and it only turned into 1100 CAD
<mdke> ##help-unofficial?
<mdke> ah, freenode thing?
* mdke LOVES unofficial help
<Burgwork> mdke, heh
<nickrud> the silence is deafening
<nickrud> Burgwork, I was thinking of putting those packages back inside the {{{ }}} stuff, so it looks better. The guy that reorganized the kubuntu/ubuntu stuff did good work
<Burgwork> nickrud, what did someone mess up on RF now?
<nickrud> Burgwork, he took all those kubuntu notes and turned them into expliciit subsections 
<Burgwork> ya, I saw that
<Burgwork> the page is a little too long
<nickrud> java by itself :)
<Burgwork> I nuke the gplflash stuff
<Burgwork> we need a gnash page
<nickrud> gnash?
<Burgwork> a gpl'ed flash (not gplflash)
<nickrud> oh, I though a page for people to get their teeth exercised
<mdke> that would work too
<mdke> GNU-dentistry
<nickrud> maybe just point everyone at easybuntu, easy work then :)
<mdke> that does teeth?
<nickrud> you all set the policy for the wiki; this page is sorta unique in that it is referenced from the help, and is critical to most users. Have you ever considered making it immutable?
<Burgwork> nickrud, we generally don't like that idea, but it has been considered
<nickrud> After watching for over a year I really think it should be considered an extension of the help docs, and owned by the doc team
<mdke> which page?
<mdke> Restricted?
<nickrud> restricted formats
<mdke> man that page needs a lot of love
<mdke> it's just too big
<nickrud> I've said that more than once
<mdke> we should make it into a sub index
* mdke winces at the edubuntu colours
<nickrud> I hate the blue human folders. Changed them to brown first thing
<mdke> Burgwork: I've made a very rough start
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/
<mdke> it's still fairly hideous
<mdke> but at least it smells of edubuntu
<mdke> LaserJock: ^
<Burgwork> mdke, cool
<mdke> ok, that's as far as I'm going to get tonight: http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/
<mdke> tell me what you guys think
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> LaserJock: perhaps you can give some feedback and we can improve it... maybe ask other edubuntu people
<LaserJock> mdke: will do
<Burgwork> mdke, looks good
<Burgwork> text colour is a little too purple
<LaserJock> the links are a little too pink
<LaserJock> oops
<LaserJock> purple, pink whatever
<Burgwork> whatever
<mdke> i just took that colour from the website
<LaserJock> hmm, they need to fix their website ;-)
<mdke> actually the website is a bit pinker
<mdke> the purple is the colour of visited links, i think
<LaserJock> oh, your right
<mdke> but if you give me a better colour, I'll replace it
<LaserJock> there seems to be a bit of a TZ hole in #edubuntu :-)
<Burgwork> wow, lets watch the Art Team bikeshed over meetings now!
<LaserJock> mdke: < ogra> the fonts are a bit to big
<LaserJock>  <ogra> ast least the author names could be half size
<LaserJock> Burgwork: on the ML?
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> speaking of meetings, we having one this friday?
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah ok.
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I don't see anything on fridge
<mdke> LaserJock: it would be better if you replaced the author names by the group, that way it would look like the other docs. They are big because they are <h2>
<LaserJock> k, just a sec
<juan_> hi
<Burgwork> salut juan_ 
<juan_> salut Burgwork
<LaserJock> mdke: how do you mean? I have <authorgroup> and then <author> for each one?
<mdke> LaserJock: just copy about-edubuntu
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> hmm, that was a short visit
<mdke> LaserJock: that way it will look like this (much better I think): http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/about-edubuntu/C/
<mdke> ah, about-edubuntu needs a sect1 at the beginning
<mdke> am I allowed to edit that?
<mdke> shit, about ubuntu does too
<LaserJock> ack, what are you talking about. now your confusing me :-)
<mdke> ok, forget that
<mdke> anyway, copy the format of the <articleinfo>
<mdke> releasenotes could do with the same love too
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/edubuntu-releasenotes/C/
<LaserJock> k
<mdke> ok, I'll upload what I have for now
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> Burgwork: did we ever figure out a license for ESA?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, nope
<LaserJock> :/
<Burgwork> we need something that works for print
<LaserJock> CC-SA didn't work
<mdke> what's the difference?
<LaserJock> weither you have to include the full text or not
<LaserJock> 10 pages of license for a 5 page pamphlet is a little annoying
<mdke> you can make derivative works happily with cc-sa, surely
<mdke> oh, right
<mdke> I don't think you *really* need the full text of cc-by-sa... i think a link would do the trick
<mdke> but I haven't checked
<mgalvin> howdy folks
<LaserJock> If I rember right from my fixing the debian/copyright files CC-SA only requires a link
<mdke> <3 cc
<mdke> hi mgalvin 
<Burgwork> LaserJock, only a link in electronic form, but hwat about paper form?
<mdke> a url would do, I'm sure
<mdke> it ought to have a free licence, I think
<Burgwork> yes, that is a must
<LaserJock> I would think a url would be the same as a link, but INAL
<mdke> o.o
<LaserJock> hehe
<mdke> basically what you are doing is saying "you can copy/modify/distribute this as you like, as long as you comply with the following conditions: http://url/here"
<mdke> the fact that the conditions are a url rather than being printed in full can't make a difference, I would have thought
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, because a one page pamphlet is not really ideal to put a huge license on
<mdke> i mean, legally it can't make a difference
<Burgwork> really? are you certain?
<LaserJock> but don't some license specifically state that the full text must be included?
<mdke> Burgwork: no, i'm never certain. But logically, it can't
<mdke> LaserJock: they might, but I don't see how they can, because a licence isn't them telling you what to do, it is you telling the world the basis on which they can use your material
<Burgwork> mdke, the gfdl has that requirement. Wikipedia runs into it all the time
<mdke> yeah, but the gfdl sucks
<LaserJock> lol
<mdke> Burgwork: and I'm not so sure it's a "requirement"
<LaserJock> but I'm pretty sure CC-SA is ok, I remember seeing on their site, just link to this url
<mdke> you can license your work however you like
<Burgwork> mdke, I am pretty certain
<mdke> they can't tell you what to do
<Burgwork> what if you are using somebody elses stuff?
<mdke> ah, that's different
<mdke> then you have to comply with _their_ licence
<mdke> which might say "you have to include the full text of our licence"
<Burgwork> that is the issue
<Burgwork> I want to create things for people to be able to use at tradeshows, etc.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i think we should rethink our licensing too
<mdke> two licences, one of which has this crazy nonsense, is just silly
<LaserJock> hmm, this might be a stupid question but, is it right to set the author to the doc team and copyright to Canonical and doc team for  ESA?
<mdke> that's what we do for everything else
<LaserJock> I know, but it just seems weird because the doc team didn't really come up with it, and I'm not really sure why Canonical would hold the copyright either
<LaserJock> I'm not trying to be weird here, I just don't quite get the legalese of it
<mdke> I don't know why Canonical would hold the copyright of anything we do
<LaserJock> but it does, no?
<mdke> how come?
<LaserJock> Copyright  2004, 2005, 2006 Canonical Ltd. and members of the Ubuntu Documentation Project
<LaserJock> that is on the top of all our docs
<mdke> oh, yeah, that's what is written
<mdke> why does screen crash?
<LaserJock> hmm, hasn't for a while for me
<LaserJock> so what does Copyright (c) Canonical Ltd. mean then?
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> doesn't seem to make sense
<mdke> anyhow, the reason we have the team as author is to emphasis the group, and the individuals are listed under contributors.
<mdke> generally, it's true that the _whole_ team hasn't contributed to a document
<LaserJock> I can understand that
<LaserJock> I'm primarly interested in the Canonical thing and docs that were created by non-docteam members that are then put into the repo
<LaserJock> is it basically saying that we are in charge of anything in the repo
<LaserJock> or hold the copyright or whatever
<mdke> well, that is true.
<mdke> it's our repo, as in, we can commit to it
<Burgwork> LaserJock, we don't hold the copyright
<LaserJock> I just want to be careful when I tell people, "Sure, lets throw it in the doc team svn repo"
<mdke> oh right
<LaserJock> I want to make sure I understand the consequences and what it means specifically for them
<mdke> well, you own the copyright to what you write
<mdke> if the person is listed as a contributor, that means their contribution is recorded
<LaserJock> even if they aren't named in the Copyright (c) statment?
<mdke> yeah, that doesn't mean anything
<LaserJock> heh, ok
<mdke> but yeah, I'd say that when someone adds a document to the repo, the document basically comes under our charge, in that any team member can edit it, and the team as a whole can take responsibility for it, I'd say
<Burgwork> the other thing about copyright is that someone has to sue us if they feel we are doing something wrong
<Burgwork> while we should be wary, I think this is unlikely
<LaserJock> makes sense, I just don't want to look like I'm minimizing peoples work or taking away their rights or something
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> in this case, ESA was started by Pete and Andrea
<mdke> LaserJock: they are listed at the top of the contributors
<LaserJock> now they are listed under Contributors
<LaserJock> I just want to make sure I'm looking out for them. I don't want to hurt them in any way
<LaserJock> but I think I understand it better now
<mdke> yeah, I understand totally
<mdke> the copyright thing is crazy
<LaserJock> Burgwork: so should I put it under CC-SA?
<mdke> we should just say "Copyright: the contributors"
<Burgwork> invent a license
<LaserJock> maybe Canonical Ltd. (for whatever reason), members of the Ubuntu Documentation Project and contributors ?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ????? me?
<Burgwork> yep, "Free use, modification and distribution allowed"
<Burgwork> no need to get into the heavy GPL copy-left stuff
<LaserJock> basically Public Domain?
<Burgwork> basically
<Burgwork> I could care less if marketing docs get pirated
<mdke> you'd want the contributors credited, I'd say
<mdke> I think something cc is a good idea
<Burgwork> You are encourage to use, modify and distribute this, credit is kept
<Burgwork> You are encourage to use, modify and distribute this, as long as credit is kept
<jsgAWAY> hey guys
<mdke> so, use an existing licence...
<Burgwork> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> good morning
<jsgotangco> hmm still no sign of rc
<mdke> jsgotangco: sure there is.
<mdke> they released it
<jsgotangco> ahh good i was looking into the topic of the channel
* jsgotangco just did a marathon amd64 test last night
* mdke goes to sleep
<LaserJock> how does GPL work?
<LaserJock> if I use a GPL'd doc when I'm writing something, how do I know what to do?
<Burgwork> we could go MIT
<jsgotangco> what do you mean how do you know what to do?
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, sorry, don't follow what you just said
<jsgotangco> <LaserJock> if I use a GPL'd doc when I'm writing something, how do I know what to do?
<mdke> ok, I put the edubuntu stuff on the preview server
<mdke> the release notes are titled "EdEdubuntu"
<mdke> ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> actualy CC-by looks good
<LaserJock> for ESA
<LaserJock> if we really don't need the SA part
<Burgwork> yep
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: well, if I base work of a GPL'd doc, how would I make sure I'm keeping to their license
<LaserJock> Burgwork: and it says:"You must include a copy of, or the Uniform Resource Identifier for, this License with every copy"
<LaserJock> so I think that means a link will do
<LaserJock> or URL I mean
<Burgwork> yep, that works
<Burgwork> the thing about marketing is that even if someone steal our writing, it isn't much use to them
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: are you pushing ESA to edubuntu-docs package?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> I'm just trying to clean up some license, authorship stuff
<jsgotangco> oh
<LaserJock> but the GPL question was for the Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> I think I might have made a mistake with it
<LaserJock> I sort of use some work from  some Debian docs, but I don't think I really ever say that I did that :/
<jsgotangco> heh the last disc i tested actually became RC
<LaserJock> ack, so I can't figure out if GPL requires attribution
<jsgotangco> I believe you do
<jsgotangco> (GFDL rather)
<jsgotangco> err not required
<jsgotangco> if i remember right
<LaserJock> I don't see it  required in the GPL
<LaserJock> just that you have to release a derivative under GPL
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> and make your source available as well
<LaserJock> right
<jsgotangco> Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is available at http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html.
<jsgotangco> You may copy and distribute a Modified Version of the Document under the conditions of sections 2 and 3 above, provided that you release the Modified Version under precisely this License, with the Modified Version filling the role of the Document, thus licensing distribution and modification of the Modified Version to whoever possesses a copy of it.
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: but I'm talking about the GPL, not GFDL
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> are you talking about the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> yes
<jsgotangco> ahh so the original work is GPL?
<LaserJock> yeah, so I reworked some small items from some of the Debian docs which are GPL'd
<LaserJock> but I was looking and I really never say that I did that, so I was wondering if I was violating the GPL :-)
<LaserJock> hi Burgers!
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi all
* Burgundavia is tempted to just buy a bloody wacom and ship it to a developer for the edgy release
<Madpilot> having fun with wireless?
<Burgundavia> no wacom, not broadcom
<Burgundavia> wacom is a drawing tablet
<Burgundavia> Loc2 <-- who is this?
<Madpilot> no idea
<Madpilot> when did you buy a tablet, or are you just reading someone complaining about them?
<Burgundavia> the wiki is a mess
<Madpilot> I know - but what does that have to do with drawing tablets?
<Burgundavia> the wacom pages are especially bad
<Madpilot> ah
<Burgundavia> and those people who have them also are usually artists
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: probably https://launchpad.net/people/loic
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, I figure as well
* ajmitch should not bother with a dist-upgrade today
<ajmitch> archive.u.c is slow with the RC being out
<Burgundavia> however, the stuff daniels is working with regards to input hotplug shoudl help
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyIdeas <-- lots of developer approved crack!
<ajmitch> developer-approved??
<Burgundavia> mdz wrote most of it
<ajmitch> scary
<ajmitch> ooh, f-spot for desktop love
* ajmitch needs to add network auth craziness to that list
<Burgundavia> http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl/
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, mdke either of you around?
<jsgotangco> yes i am here
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, see the thing from Lathiat to join the doc team?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> he wants to crack on the server guide for eft
<Burgundavia> ah, cool
<Burgundavia> I will approve him then
<jsgotangco> thanks
<Burgundavia> done
<Burgundavia> Lathiat, welcome aboard
<Lathiat> Burgundavia: :)
<Burgundavia> Lathiat, you see the news about HOWL?
<Lathiat> Burgundavia: indeed
<Burgundavia> why is it, when you need a power cord, there are none to be found, but when you don't, there are lots?
<Madpilot> because they hide
<Burgundavia> I just need one flipping powercord for Andrea's old box, going to turn it into a server
<Lathiat> heh
<Lathiat> i have a box of them
<Lathiat> but i manage to lose it when i want them... ;)
<mdke> Burgundavia: erm... we've been limiting granting access to that group to people we grant access to svn... I've rejected loads of people on that basis
<mdke> I know that Lathiat is already a community contributor and all, but I don't think we should make an exception on that basis until we've seen him send some patches and stuff, like we make everyone else do
<Burgundavia> mdke, ok
<mdke> (no offence Lathiat, I'm really happy you've come along)
<Burgundavia> I figured for an established figure in the community, it was not a big deal
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> Burgundavia: did you envisage giving immediate svn access?
<mdke> Madpilot: hiya :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, I didn't see any harm
<mdke> Burgundavia: there is no harm
<mdke> but people might get pissed off if we are inconsistent about giving svn access 
<Burgundavia> mdke, ok
<mdke> Burgundavia: do you agree with me? I don't wanna push it on you otherwise
<Burgundavia> mdke, no, I agree
<Burgundavia> I did chat briefly with jsgotangco before I dove in
<mdke> yeah I know
* jsgotangco peeks in
<mdke> what do people think about changing the tabs to | Stable docs | Community docs | ?
<mdke> having read what mpt said, I kinda figure it doesn't make sense to distinguish between releases and the wiki stuff, because the latter has both
<Madpilot> having version numbers is clearer, I think
<mdke> even though the wiki contains docs for those versions too?
<Burgundavia> what the hell is a "stable doc"
<Burgundavia> your average user doesn't care
<Madpilot> besides, as someone pointed out on the ML, Dapper is going to be 'stable' for a long time - we're going to have 6.06 docs up for quite a while, alongside later 'stable' sets
<mdke> i couldn't think of a better word which actually demonstrates the meaningful distinction between the static and wiki documents
<Madpilot> "Community Docs" is fine for the wiki, given that the word "wiki" means zip to a lot of people
<mdke> Madpilot: yeah, that's a good point
<Madpilot> w/ 3 years support on the desktop, we're going to have to display 6.06 docs alongside a LOT of other sets of docs, actually.
<mdke> you guys think that users will just automatically figure the difference between community docs and the version numbers?
<mdke> maybe they will...
<Madpilot> <shrug> I can't think of a way to be clearer, really. It's not perfect, but it'll have to do.
<mdke> perhaps the only way to be clearer would be with more than one level of tabs ;)
<mdke> ok, let's keep it as it is then
* mdke goes to work
<Madpilot> gah, they still haven't killed that giant oversized quite dialogue in Dapper RC...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, that will not die until after release, I think
<Burgundavia> desrt and I were talking about it
<Burgundavia> seems sabdfl gets one stupid idea per release and will not back down from it
<Madpilot> wonder if I can keep Breezy's sane little logout dialogue when I dist-upgrade to Dapper? ;)
<Burgundavia> not without patching gnome-panel
<Madpilot> yeah, I know, but I can wish.
* jsgotangco seems to like that dialog box sorry
<Madpilot> it occupies two or three times the screen area compared to Breezy's, but has *fewer* functions (no Save Session checkbox anymore, for example...)
<Madpilot> however, "It's ugly" wouldn't make a good bug report ;)
<jsgotangco> i like the colors
<Burgundavia> I need to sleep
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, machine is going down. YOu still doing anything?'
<Madpilot> nope
<Burgundavia> ok
<robitaille> Madpilot:  you can use the default gnome logout menu instead of the ubuntu one in Dapper by changing an option with gconf-editor
<Madpilot> robitaille, good to know, for when Dapper's oversized one gets to me ;)
<robitaille> search for the "upstream_session" key 
<Madpilot> has anyone else noticed the item on the agenda for the next CC meeting, about the wiki licensing?
<mdke> no
<mdke> yeah the logout sucks
<Madpilot> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda - only item on the agenda
<mdke> yeah, saw it now
<Madpilot> "screenshots of themes made outside of Ubuntu" - that strikes me as being spurious - it's just a screenshot, not the theme itself...
<mdke> yes. but the question of whether code or artwork attached to the wiki must be public domain is a good question
<Madpilot> code is more difficult, yeah... but do we really have that much code in the wiki?
<mdke> dunno, potentially yeah
<Madpilot> need sleep - later, all
<cbx33> anyone know a good howto for setting up svn+apache
<cbx33> with webdav
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SubVersion
<cbx33> mdke: you're a star
<cbx33> thanx bud
<mdke> np
<mdke> that page should clearly not have a capital V
<cbx33> mdke: i'm having a bit of trouble with that svn howto
<cbx33> most of it has been fine
<cbx33> just need a little pointer.....I have successfully checked out the repo
<cbx33> but myproblem is with commiting....I have followed your instructions, but ti's coming up with a permission denied
<mdke> cbx33: no idea, I've never set up an svn repo. Try #svn?
<cbx33> h rats
<cbx33> I can;t get there right now
<cbx33> cgi-irc
<mdke> there are some cgi-ircs that you can use to join any channel
<cbx33> indeed there are
<mdke> tp://irc.sourpuss.net/irc.cgi
<cbx33> but I have restricted mine
<mdke> with an ht in front
<cbx33> that site is blocked by the isp at the school
<cbx33> grrrr
<cbx33> hence why i use my own
<cbx33> :S
<mdke> ah
<mdke> what are you setting up, out of interest?
<cbx33> well
<cbx33> it's an svn repository so staff at the school can access the svn repo I setup from home
<cbx33> and from school
<cbx33> because I can;t setup a server inside the school, as the firwall at the city won;t allow any incoming traffic
<cbx33> i know the problem I'm having is a simple permissions problem
<cbx33> I did these instructions
<cbx33>    $ sudo mkdir myproject   $ sudo chown -R root:subversion myproject   $ sudo chmod -R g+rws myproject
<cbx33> and I've been added to the subversion group...
<cbx33> but every folder subsequent from that has permissions like so
<cbx33> drwxr-sr-x 5 root subversion 4096 2006-05-26 11:39 db
<cbx33> and won't let me write to it...because group write is missing
<cbx33> does anyone have any idea what those instructions should have said
<mdke> no idea sorry
<cbx33> thanks anyway mdke 
<bhuvan> cbx33: you refer "server guide" documentation in your system. the wiki seem to be incorrect
<cbx33> bhuvan: wherE?
<cbx33> brb
<t_z> I downloaded flight7 instead of RC by mistake. At http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/dapperrc under Installation, the "direct download" link is incorrect.
<mdke> t_z: thanks for pointing it out, I'll check
<t_z> mdke: np
<mdke> t_z: no, it's the right link
<mdke> http://releases.ubuntu.com/6.06/
<t_z> For me"direct download" it links to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/dapper/ which has flight7/ dir only.
<mdke> erm, well now it looks right
<mdke> are you sure?
<mdke> oh, my bad
<mdke> t_z: yeah was looking at the wrong link. Fixed now, thanks
<t_z> mdke: confirmed fixed. thanks.
<mdke> mgalvin: those picasa links are not found
<mgalvin> yea, highvoltage said the same but they work for here for me... grr lemme see whats going on
<mdke> i can't find any mention on linux on the site, it just says "linux is not supported"
<mgalvin> bah, i have the package here :)
<mgalvin> so http://picasa.google.com/linux/
<mgalvin> doesn't work at all for you
<mdke> that's correct
<dsas> 404s for me too
<mdke> must be some fault on their side with a pool or servers or whatever
<mdke> *of
<mgalvin> dsas are you also in uk?
<dsas> yep
<mgalvin> hmm
<LaserJock> works for me
<mgalvin> works from here in the us but not from the uk it seems :-/
<mgalvin> well, i guess i will just add a note to the post about that
<mdke> no worries, it will probably sync up eventually
<mgalvin> yea
<dsas> I can read it using links on a US based computer :)
<jeffsch> i'm in vancouver and get 404
<mgalvin> oh well, i added a note
<mgalvin> i put it here if you guys want to grab it
<mgalvin> http://people.simplifiedcomplexity.com/~mgalvin/downloads/picasa_2.2.2820-5_i386.deb
<mgalvin> its 21M
<mgalvin> (might be a little slow)
<jeffsch> interesting.... google search of picasa_2.2.2820-5_i386.deb turns up no matches
<jeffsch> you'd think it would show up somewhere
<LaserJock> mgalvin: hehe, the MOTU in me wants to ask you for the source package ;-)
<mgalvin> haha :)
<jeffsch> LaserJock: i have a motu question...
<jeffsch> ubuntu follows lsb, right?
<LaserJock> probably when we want to ;-)
<jeffsch> when you are packaging an app that does not follow lsb, do you convert it, or just let it be?
<LaserJock> it sort of depends on the maintainer, we would usually encourage the authors to do it right
<LaserJock> but often we do "tweak" things
<jeffsch> do you document those tweaks?
<LaserJock> jeffsch: yes, a source package consists of the original tarball from the authors and then a diff that has all the changes we make
<LaserJock> and a .dsc file that holds md5sums, etc.
<jeffsch> what about the binary package?
<LaserJock> I don't think so other than what is in the changelog
<jeffsch> k
<LaserJock> does that answer your question sufficently?
<jeffsch> yes
<jeffsch> it's just that for some apps (none come to mind), once you apt-get install, you have to know how to find the config files, etc etc
<jeffsch> because the documentation on the app website says it's in one place
<jeffsch> but the package puts it in another
<jeffsch> i assumed it was because of lsb compliance
<LaserJock> probably
<LaserJock> but I think I've seen more of authors not putting things where they say they are and the packagers fixing it ;-)
<jeffsch> that's probably true too... the docs tend to be a version or two behind the times....
<jeffsch> apache2 docs, for eg
<jeffsch> the *label* says version 2, but they often refer to httpd.conf instead of the newer files (sites-enabled/default, etc)
<mdke> ouch
<LaserJock> but yeah, I had to fix a package that hard coded the docs to /usr/share/<package>/docs when we usually do /usr/share/docs/<package>
<LaserJock> if I remember right I uploaded a fix for something similar in iptables
<LaserJock> but that kind of thing is why Ubuntu rocks hard core and the devs don't get any sleep :-)
<Burgwork> anybody know what "Landscape client" is?
<robotgeek> nope
<robotgeek> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-May/006299.html , what can i do?
<robotgeek> i guess nothing much till i come back on monday, later
<mdke> robotgeek: yeah, _always_ use the entity
<mdke> oh, wrong mail
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you around?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yep
<jjesse> LaserJock: thanks for comitting the change for me.. can you make sure it goes in trunk as well as branches?
<LaserJock> jjesse: what change?
<jjesse> oh shoot that was robotgeek
<jjesse> sorry bout that
<jjesse> for some reason i always get the two of you confused
<LaserJock> hehe, np. I just wondered what I was doing
<LaserJock> robot:laser , geek:jock
<LaserJock> I can see it
<mdke> GeekJock
<mdke> nice
<jjesse> gren
<jjesse> gin
<jsgotangco> heh the picasa on linux runs on its own wine libs
<mdke> third time lucky
<jjesse> grin
<LaserJock> mdke: my mom sometimes teases me and calls me a geek god (play on greek god I guess)
<mdke> heh
<LaserJock> that was when I had the "magic" touch with computers
<jjesse> does that mean you no longer have the magic touch ?
<LaserJock> when I was younger, it seemed like my presence in a room would make computer problems disappear
<LaserJock> today I know too much and now I'm dangerous
<jjesse> ah i have that same aura sometimes :)
<jsgotangco> my wife hides her macbook from me
<LaserJock> there for a while it was really creepy
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: because you will break it or because you will never give it back?
<jsgotangco> i am very obsessed with it
<jsgotangco> she makes sure she locks it up in her private closet before we sleep
<jsgotangco> im not kidding
<LaserJock> my wife told me to divorce her laptop :-)
<LaserJock> Dapper has to be released soon, it might be "Choose between me and Ubuntu" and I don't want to have to make that kind of decision ;-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, might you be looking for a new wife?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: no, no. but Ubuntu would be verrrry hard to give up
<Burgwork> LaserJock, hmm, indeed
<Burgwork> I am single now, but my last gf was very supportive of my work with Ubuntu
<LaserJock> but everyone needs a vice, right?
<Burgwork> although she also did not let me touch her iBook
<LaserJock> I don't drink, or smoke, or anything so.. I think Ubuntu can be my vice :-)
<LaserJock> well, my wife hates computer and really isn't fond of Linux because it is what I'm doing all the time when she wants me to help around the house, etc.
<LaserJock> but she does hate MS so that is good :-)
<jsgotangco> it doesnt really matter much to my wife as long sa her web apps work
<jjesse> as long as my wife can check her webmail and "chat" on her forums she is happy
<LaserJock> it isn't so much using Linux as the fact that I'm always using Linux :-)
<LaserJock> she doesn't like TV or technology much in general 
<LaserJock> it is one area that we are really different
<jsgotangco> my wife is more into phones
<LaserJock> my wife is into crafts and cooking :-)
<crimsun> my thinkpad .. oh, wives. nevermind.
<Burgwork> crimsun, indeed. These old married farts
<jsgotangco> bug off, my 4 year old already knows what ubuntu looks like 
<LaserJock> hehe, yes I'm sooo old
<Burgwork> LaserJock, how old are you?
<crimsun> fogey
<LaserJock> Burgwork: 24 and I've been married for almost 5
<jsgotangco> 24? seriously?
<Burgwork> married since 19? you are nuts
<LaserJock> that was my senior year of undergrad
<Burgwork> if all goes well, I will be at Ubucon on the 24th birthday
<jsgotangco> how big would that be?
<crimsun> geez, youngun.
<LaserJock> I got married, a bunch of people in my family died :(, and then we were off to grad school, all in 9 months
<LaserJock> it was sort of crazy
<jjesse> wow i feel old at 28 :)
<crimsun> jjesse: fogey
<LaserJock> jjesse: my wife is 27 :-)
<jsgotangco> meh im probably the oldest fart here
<Burgwork> jjesse, don't worry, jsgotangco has got us all beat
<LaserJock> crimsun: how much of a fogey are you?
<crimsun> I'm 27.
<jjesse> seriously?  jsgotangco how old are u?
<jsgotangco> 31
<crimsun> lamont's 40ish
<jjesse> hmmm not too much older :)
<jjesse> and how old is mdke
* jeffsch is 42
<jsgotangco> oh he's just a kid
<LaserJock> crimsun: how long have you been teaching?
<crimsun> 3 years
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> hopefully I'll have my PhD when I'm 25 and then I can start teaching
<dsas> I wonder if I'm the youngest?
<crimsun> run away, dude. run very far away. :-)
<LaserJock> hehe, I'm thinking about it, but there aren't a lot of industrial jobs for Physical Chemists
<LaserJock> the NSA hires quite a few though :-)
<crimsun> yes, yes they do.
<jjesse> you can then listen in to all of our phones calls while at the NSA
<LaserJock> muahhahaha
<crimsun> you won't touch that side of the NSA
<crimsun> that's all sigint
<LaserJock> no, but Physical chemists are usually pretty ok with computers and electronics
<mdke> i'm 24
<LaserJock> a grad student in my lab did a lot of image analysis for his PhD
<crimsun> LaserJock: right, but you won't even be allowed in that section
<LaserJock> and they sort of wanted him
<jjesse> mdke: no offense but you come across as older
<mdke> thanks
<Burgwork> LaserJock, did you see my /query ?
<crimsun> jjesse: there's a fairly bad misconception of the NSA thanks to what has been happening lately. Actually very few sigints are involved in listening, as it's all tools. :-)
<jjesse> crimsun: i personall don't view that what is going on itsn't the worst thing that can be done.  the idea seems like a good idea to me
* crimsun migrates to -offtopic
<jjesse> i want persue it any more
<jsgotangco> ciao good night
<jjesse> good nigt jsgotangco
<mdke> mgalvin: links work here now
<mgalvin> mdke: ah cool, thanks, i will remove the note then
* mdke reboots into windows for the only task he ever reboots into windows for
<mdke> resetting the firmware on the ipod
<LaserJock> that's sort of funny
<LaserJock> Going from Linux, into Windows, to update an Apple iPod :-)
<mdke> aw heck
<mdke> let's try this rockbox lark
<mdke> i can't face rebooting into Windows
<LaserJock> yeah, I don't dual boot very well
<LaserJock> I have to just have Linux or just have Windows
<mdke> i kept windows because Canonical insisted on it but I never use it except for formatting my ipod
<mdke> I can't do anything on it
<LaserJock> lol, that's like my boss. I watching him try to set up a printer once in Windows
<LaserJock> it was pretty funny
<mdke> stupid thing can't even print
<mdke> argh, why did I press return
<mdke> I seriously couldn't get it to print to the network printer at the office
<LaserJock> yeah, I have a similar experience here in the lab
<mdke> I think it wanted me to log in with the same username as my network username
<LaserJock> we have a HP Color LaserJet with the JetDirect card
<LaserJock> Ubuntu takes about 20 s to setup, all I have to do is tell it the name
<mdke> even less here, cups just detects them automatically
<LaserJock> in Windows you have to go through this long install process, etc. because it doesn't do it "Out of the Box"
<LaserJock> ah, well we don't do stuff like that because then other groups will use our printer ;-)
<mdke> thankfully then run a linux print server at the office :)
<mdke> with samba/cups
* mdke prepares to see smoke coming from his ipod
<mdke> ah crap
<mdke> the partition table is all screwed up
<mdke> man this rockbox business is GREAT
<mdke> I'll never boot into Windows again
<Burgwork> mdke, uhh, what are you using rockbox for?
<mdke> my ipod
<Burgwork> ah
<mdke> my ipod now supports ogg
<mdke> I need some oggs
<LaserJock> it does?
<LaserJock> how cool
<mdke> i need to test it, but it says it does
<mdke> if it does, I'll try and convert all my mp3s
<dsas> doesn't rockbox zap battery life or something?
<Burgwork> mdke, I wouldn't convert mp3's
<mdke> dsas: you mean per recharge, or in general?
<Burgwork> lossy to lossy is a bad idea
<dsas> mdke: Per recharge, sure I read something about it recently.
<mdke> Burgwork: meh... I'll just have to rerip as much as possible then
<mdke> dsas: well, that's likely yeah. As long as it isn't damaging the battery I don't mind
<LaserJock> mdke: I converted some high quality mp3s and I couldn't notice a difference really, but I listen to the radio alot so...
<mdke> I will try and see
<mdke> how's it done?
<LaserJock> I think there are some mp32ogg apps out there, I think I found one on the forums last time I tried way back when
<mdke> ogg works nicely
<LaserJock> converted?
<LaserJock> or reripped?
<mdke> i mean, it works on the ipod
<mdke> (ripped)
<mdke> robotgeek, anyone else with l33t scripting skilz: ping?
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> how easy is it? Bash or Python or ...
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> looks pretty easy
<mdke> LaserJock: you wanna give it a go?
<LaserJock> I can at least look at it and see if it is in the realm of possibility :-)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> go to branches/dapper/kubuntu/
<LaserJock> k
<mdke> have a look at khelpdesktop/kubuntu/aboutkubuntu.desktop
<mdke> we need that translated
<mdke> potentially, the string can come from the xml file
<mdke> (the title)
<LaserJock> so you want to fill in the .desktop from the XML translations?
<mdke> that's it
<mdke> the Name[xyz]  bit can come from the directories under aboutkubuntu/ and the string from the title of the xml translation
<mdke> or, we can do some by hand
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think a script would be too hard
<crimsun> that's totally a python job
<LaserJock> crimsun: yeah, I suppose. I'm doing it in bash ATM
<crimsun> yeah, you certainly can do it in bash
<LaserJock> I'm probably more comfortable with Python
<LaserJock> in some ways
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock: yo
<LaserJock> mdke: this is probably terrible shell scripting but it seems to work http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14699
<LaserJock> mdke: I just ran that in the folder with the .desktops
<LaserJock> crimsun could probably thrash it pretty good :-)
<mdke> LaserJock: dude, as long as it works
<mdke> will it work for the other guides too, you think?
<LaserJock> yeah, as long as you adjust it properly
<mdke> does it work?
<LaserJock> for about kubuntu?
<LaserJock> it looks good to me
<mdke> LaserJock: ok, would you run the script, and upload the changes?
<LaserJock> what do you want it done on? all the .desktops in there?
<mdke> yes, although you'll need a different script for each, I guess
<mdke> similar though
<Burgundavia> 24.69.71.211 Madpilot 
<Madpilot> works
<Burgundavia> can you get me some content now?
<Burgundavia> in fact, you can do that
<Madpilot> not instantly, but in a few hours, yes
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Madpilot> I can fire up a plain placeholder page in about half an hour, though
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> dns is not yet turned over
<Madpilot> OK
<Burgundavia> hey ghee22 
<Madpilot> got it mounted in Naut too now
<Burgundavia> here is the skinny on the quicktour
<ghee22> hey burgundavia
<Burgundavia> I produced that doc, along with other people, as part of the breezy cycle
<Burgundavia> it has not been updated and is now gone
<ghee22> oof
<Burgundavia> however, content from that has morphed into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Desktop
<Burgundavia> that page will eventually move to ubuntu.com/desktop
<ghee22> well, here's what I have to offer.  I have checked out the links on the quicktourdraft wiki page and emailed all those links' authors for permission to use their stuff
<Burgundavia> what do you want it for, again?
<ghee22> I'm the duede working on the Ubuntu Welcome Center as part of Google's SoC
<Burgundavia> welcome center?
<Burgundavia> got a link to the proposal?
<ghee22> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center
<ghee22> the proposal is copied into there
<Burgundavia> did I not see screenshots floating about?
<ghee22> I don't have any yet.  I'm drafting the screenshots this week
<Burgundavia> I saw some sort of help/welcome center screenshots
<ghee22> on the proposal?  where did you see these
<Burgundavia> could be, but the proposal is down now
<Burgundavia> ghee22, do you mind if I play devils advocate for a bit here?
<ghee22> ok...
<Burgundavia> I am a little concerned about the focus
<Burgundavia> I like the idea, in general but am deeply concerned it can go astray really quickly
<Burgundavia> the quicktour was designed as a marketing document, not a help one
<Burgundavia> the weclome center, imho, should be the latter, not the former
<ghee22> I see where you are going with this.  The direction of where the content should push the user is different
<ghee22> quicktour:  get ubuntu.   welcome center:  how to use ubuntu
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> well, quicktour is dead, but yes
<ghee22> but the apps in the content is very similar
<ghee22> openoffice
<ghee22> firefox
<Burgundavia> but the writing is very very different
<Burgundavia> they already have Ubuntu
<ghee22> Yes, you are absolutely correct.  Let's look at the proposal. "A GUI application that assist the user with the application that he will be using in GNOME, and the capabilities of Ubuntu. The application must be attractive and easy to use for new users to easily adopt in Ubuntu."  I'm definitely not planning on copying and pasting
<ghee22> would you like me to email you my
<Burgundavia> ok, just chcking
<ghee22> proposal
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> the wiki one lacks a clear roadmap, imho
<ghee22> first of all, and I don't mean this in an accusatory tone, are you an Ubuntu volunteer/employee
<Burgundavia> volunteer
<ghee22> I'd just like to see who's opinion I'm taking. 
<ghee22> ok
<ghee22> are you on planet
<Burgundavia> I have been with the doc team since Dec 2004
<ghee22> burger
<Burgundavia> yep, Corey Burger
<Burgundavia> Madpilot is my older brother and my first successful Ubuntu conversion
<ghee22> ok great!  now I your opinions have much more "fruit" behind it than a some joe schmoe who joined the irc channel
<ghee22> (kind of like me right now...)
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/people/corey.burger
<ghee22> getting proposal
<Burgundavia> I also sell desktop Linux on a daily basis, so I am getting a fair idea of what startles people and what doesn't
<theCore> "my first successful Ubuntu conversion", that have a religious *dang* to me :)
<ghee22> ok... so copy into here?  I don't see your email addy in your profile..
<Burgundavia> ghee22, corey.burger@gmail.com
<theCore> s/have/has
<Burgundavia> theCore, and the good Lord said you shalt have Ubuntu and it was good :)
<theCore> hehe :)
<ghee22> done burg
<Madpilot> theCore, hardly - my XP install melted down, and I called him up and offered beer in exchange for a working system ;)
<Madpilot> a six-pack later, I had one, and it was brown :)
<Burgundavia> needly to say, I wasn't very keen on fixing his XP install
<theCore> ROFL!
<theCore> that the way to convert someone :D
<Burgundavia> ghee22, can you copy a lot of that proposal onto the wiki page
<Burgundavia> it answers a lot of my questions
<Burgundavia> but it does bring up another one
<Burgundavia> who is going to create the content?
<Burgundavia> that will overlap with the docteams work a great deal
<theCore> I think I got a good idea for new guide : "The Ubuntu Productivity Guide"
<ghee22> surely, I'm really new at this spec stuff...  I guess I am.  I've created a lot of in the proposal.  Should I put it in implementation?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> theCore, step 1: apt-get remove xchat xchat-gnome
<theCore> :'(
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, also apt-get remove gaim irssi, just to be complete ;)
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi!
<Burgundavia> ghee22, I would use this overall ui of 6.25 in this doc http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/controls-notebooks.html
<Burgundavia> ghee22, and then I would make it so that the welcome center is merely links into existing docs
<theCore> jsgotangco: I'm just wandering, are you the owner of that URL: http://people.debian.org/~jerome/ ?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we are discussing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center
<Burgundavia> theCore, seriously, what is your plan for a productivity guide?
<jsgotangco> theCore: no that's not me
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: that got in to SoC no?
<theCore> jsgotangco: ah, ok
<Burgundavia> it did
<Burgundavia> ghee22 is going to be writing it
<jsgotangco> who's mentoring?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<theCore> Burgundavia: well, I would like to deliver all the Tips & Tricks from the old Desktop guide to this guide in more structured way. Plus, some tips on how to spend less time administrating the system, how to learn touch-typing, how to use /your-app-here/ efficiently, 
<theCore> etc
<Burgundavia> not sure that is entirely useful, tbh
<Burgundavia> at least, as one giant doc
<Madpilot> theCore, that's a fairly sprawling mandate for one doc, isn't it?
<theCore> Madpilot: yeah, it would be interesting
<theCore> Madpilot: but a huge work to do
<Burgundavia> theCore, it would be better to do that a number of smaller doc
<Madpilot> most of the old Tip & Tricks chapter in the Ubuntu DG has been parceled out across the rest of the guide
<Burgundavia> plus, tbh, our job is to figure out how to write less
<ghee22> sorry for delay, brb in 5
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: its not in the google site for ubuntu
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I don't see it either. I might be mistaken
<Burgundavia> either way, ghee22 sounds keen and we should work with him to produce something stellar
<ghee22> stellar we want, stellar it is  :o)
<ghee22> I'm starting to understand why everyone says Ubuntu helpers gives warm welcomes to all
<Burgundavia> absolutely. Me playing devils advocate is all about getting the best, nothing to do with the creator
<Madpilot> ghee22, are you on the docteam mailing list yet?
<ghee22> jsgotangco, Simon Law is mentoring me
<jsgotangco> oh great
<ghee22> Madpilot, no, not yet.  starting to join right now... googling it
<Burgundavia> lists.ubuntu.com
<ghee22> got it
<Madpilot> ghee22, wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<ghee22> madpilot, ok I'm subscribed
<Laser_away> hi ghee22
<ghee22> hi laserjock
<jsgotangco> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
<theCore> bonsoir LaserJock
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: ? that doesn't sound good
<Burgundavia> jsgAWAY, hmm?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, rather
<jsgotangco> CAN ANYONE GIVE JOEL BRYAN A PIECE OF ADVICE NOT TO CROSS POST I GIVE UP
<Burgundavia> clue bat?
<jsgotangco> if he goes to our local release party i will chew him
<jsgotangco> (he is a local here)
<Burgundavia> he didn't cross post this time
<Burgundavia> oh, wait
<LaserJock> I sort of have a mental Ignore feature that he has been added to :/
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, it is too bad, because he is actually not a total loss
<jsgotangco> some of his ideas are good, but it seems he is trying to catch attention
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> he asked via email an hour ago what is a sounder list then he just CC
<jsgotangco> 'ed sounder as well
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I agree
<ghee22> what is cross posting
<ghee22> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_post  nevermind
<LaserJock> hmm, I just noticed that Nautilus doesn't do the spatial browsing thing
<Burgundavia> that has been the default since breezy
<jsgotangco> can anyone confirm in g-a-i after installing an application the OK button is not clickable
<LaserJock> wow, shows how much I've used GUI file browsers
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, Dapper or Breezy?
<jsgotangco> Dapper
<Madpilot> still running Breezy here
<LaserJock> ouch :-)
<Burgundavia> I haven't switched this machine yhet
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, I have an idea for you
* mgalvin listens
<mgalvin> hi by the way ;)
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> mark got a bug in his hat about newletters from edubuntu, kubuntu and ubuntu
<Burgundavia> afaik, nobody has stepped forward for ubuntu
<mgalvin> i would certainly like to take on the task
<mgalvin> (if that is what you are getting at)
<Burgundavia> basically
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: that is Add/Remove Applications?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: yes
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: who is doing the edubuntu and kubuntu letters?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: it worked fine here
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: thanks (it happens in edubuntu)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco for edubuntu and riddell for kubuntu
<mgalvin> ok cool, is there any plans or any specifics mark has in mind yet?
<Burgundavia> I just saw an email on the edubuntu list
<Burgundavia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2006-May/001454.html
<mgalvin> i gotta sign back up for that list
<mgalvin> i got off some of the b/c i was swamped with thousands of emails a day
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I think pygi is also going to work on it
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, oh
<Burgundavia> ?] 
<LaserJock> and perhaps cbx33 as he wants to be involved in everything
<mgalvin> i'll reply to that thread in a sec... seems a natural progression for me since i have been keeping on top of everything for those tours
<mgalvin> LaserJock: they are looking to do the ubuntu letter?
<mgalvin> i'll try and catch up with them and see if i can help out if they have already started anything
<LaserJock> mgalvin: no edubuntu
<mgalvin> ah ok
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: actually with g-a-i the ok button isn't greyed out, it just doesn't do anything :(
<mgalvin> so if i just reply to that thread with the same subject will mailman keep the thread together? (i don't have the original email to reply to)
<rob> is it me or do the example chapters completely overlap with the guides (in particular the Desktop Guide)?
<Burgundavia> rob, yep, they do
<rob> in fact if I didn't know better I could have sworn I was reading the Desktop Guide when I was checking them out earlier
<LaserJock> well, at least it's consistent then
<Burgundavia> jono is a good writer and you are likely looking at his chapters
<rob> yes, there are three (one is Kubuntu)
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> sorry i was fixing our toilet
<mgalvin> what fun
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: yeah i just saw our water bill shoot up
<rob> jsgotangco, for us you'll need to open them in Konqueror from /usr/share/example-content
<jsgotangco> the culprit is the toilet
<jsgotangco> edubuntu doesn't have the book
<jsgotangco> (we
<rob> I have to wonder why it wasn't just taken from the Desktop Guide in the first place
<jsgotangco> (we're fighting for space by the kb)
<LaserJock> The Desktop Guide wasn't finished when they were writing the book was it?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, sort of
<Burgundavia> the book was designed as a standalone book
<rob> so, why duplicate the effort?
<Burgundavia> because the licenses it was released under are a sideeffect, unlike our stuff
<rob> when is it going to be relicenced?
<Burgundavia> it was built as a book and it happens to be under a free license, so here we are
<Burgundavia> bits of it already are
<Burgundavia> the rest when the book releases in Aug
<rob> kind of seems silly to me, did the publisher not want any one reading it before it was released?
<Burgundavia> umm, I don't understand what you are saying
<LaserJock> most publishers don't I don't think
<Burgundavia> you are reading it right now, before it has been released
<Burgundavia> we passed off the last reviews last week
<rob> I guess what I'm saying is why didn't the doc team itself just write the book in a separate repo or some such thing?
<rob> we basically have had two separate doc teams for dapper in the end, once the book is "opened up"
<rob> seems like a waste to me
<jsgotangco> :) its too late to rant rob
<LaserJock> because the publisher approached authors, and when it is done we can use it so it so I don't see the two doc teams then
<rob> jsgotangco, we never had the chance..
<rob> LaserJock, right, hence there has been a lot of time wasted on both sides of the fence
<rob> duplicating effort
<Burgundavia> rob, prentice hall approached canonical who suggested authors, which included me
<Burgundavia> prentice hall is taking a large risk by doing this
<LaserJock> rob: perhaps, but it is going to be a whole lot less than normally published books
<Burgundavia> be happy they decided to take the risk
<LaserJock> it is amazing that it will have a compatible license that will allow us to use the material
<Burgundavia> yes it is not optimal, but still
<rob> I'm not worried at all about prentice hall, they are a business and are free to do what they want
<rob> I think the doc team got screwed in all of this
<Burgundavia> rob, that is a very negative attitude
<Burgundavia> would you rather we got no book?
<rob> Burgundavia, easy for you to say
<LaserJock> prentice hall didn't ask the doc team, it is really that simple
<Burgundavia> why? because I wrote part of it?
<rob> I don't really care if we didn't, eventually we would anyway
<Burgundavia> writing a book is very hard
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> ask any of myself, jsgotangco, mgalvin, jeffsch
<rob> if I had docbook xml versions of both the book and the desktop guide I could mix and match with them almost without care
<rob> its a duplication of effort, which is just silly
<Burgundavia> I would say it is an order of magnitude harder than docs, due to all the careful checking you have to do
<Burgundavia> you have the words, turning them into XML is not hard
<jsgotangco> external reviewers can be really harsh sometimes
<jsgotangco> but then they are paid to do it
<Burgundavia> they were pretty kind to me
<rob> Burgundavia, that's crud, if the Desktop Guide was published properly it would go though the same checking, thats why you have editors who proof read etc
<Burgundavia> the desktop guide would need major expansion
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i agree on that
<rob> sigh, thanks for the screw job guys
<Burgundavia> there was no screw job
<jsgotangco> rob, this is nothing personal but you've been trolling for quite some time now
<LaserJock> and nobody here was doing it even if there was, that would be Prentice Hall and they actually are doing a lot less "screwing" than other publishers would
<rob> jsgotangco, because I haven't been happy about the arrangement from the get go, the doc team was never consulted regarding this book
<Burgundavia> because sometimes you need to get things done
<rob> to me, thats just plain rude and inconsiderate
<Burgundavia> look at the art team
<Burgundavia> or for that matter, the lulu matter
<rob> lulu != publishing an official book
<LaserJock> rob: I had the same concerns but I have seen where 2 doc team members were authors and it was review by other doc team members
<jsgotangco> i was asked to review it but i declined
<LaserJock> I don't think we got "screwed"
<Burgundavia> rob, I was more referring to the discussion over it
<jsgotangco> we've discussed this matter before
<jsgotangco> although none came out of it
<LaserJock> rob: just because the publisher doesn't want their work-in-progress spread all over public forums and you and I weren't involved doesn't mean the doc team got screwed, really
<rob> all it would have taken is for someone to officially approach the entire doc team and offer the chance to participate
<mgalvin> i can certainly say there was not screwing involved, and yes, publishing a real book is magnitudes harder than doc team work
<rob> even if most of us would have turned it down, the consideration and respect would have been nice
<mgalvin> the truth of the matter is publishers are in it for the business and its not a very public matter until it is done
<jsgotangco> we even tried to do the docbook route but it was counter-productive 
<Burgundavia> rob, then who do you approach?
<dsas> jsgotangco: Out of interest, what did you write the book in?
<rob> it doesn't have to be public, you guys left out several more active members of the doc team writing the docs
<jsgotangco> dsas: im writing for another publisher along with mgalvin and jeffsch
<Burgundavia> dsas, the official book was written in OpenOffice, with word templates
<LaserJock> rob: who?
<jsgotangco> dsas: sorry errr
<jsgotangco> dsas: openoffice
<rob> Burgundavia, an email to the list would have sufficed
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco's book is written in docbook in svn, if I remember correctly
<jsgotangco> dsas: the word templates are a necessary evil to publishing
<ghee22> question:  do you guys have a separate email address for the mailing lists?
<Burgundavia> what could we do?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: we ditched the docbook but still use svn
<LaserJock> ghee22: how do you mean?
<Burgundavia> wait on the official book to deliver?
<dsas> ah ok, I'd heard that some writers for other oss projects were made to use word by their publishers. Just curious.
<jsgotangco> dsas: yes that's correct
<jsgotangco> dsas: because the templates are then passed to framemaker
<LaserJock> dsas: all my real life writing is done in LaTeX
<Madpilot> ghee22, not personally, I use my main personal address for everything
<jsgotangco> even o'reiley does that if you look at their colophon
<ghee22> madpilot:  ok thanks.
<jsgotangco> the layout people are probably the final frontier for full open source publishing
<mgalvin> rob: you were involved as i remember so i don't understand why you feel so left out (early on as a matter of fact)
<ghee22> laserjock:  I mean have a special email address for just these ubuntu mailing lists
<rob> mgalvin, no I wasn't
<mgalvin> i have your review email of the ToC
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, lots of brand loyalty in the graphics community, mostly to Adobe ;)
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> we can't address that yet
<jsgotangco> its pretty much de facto
<Burgundavia> well, I need to go on a munchie run
<Burgundavia> back in a bit
<jsgotangco> brb going to concentrate further
<poningru> Madpilot: s/adobe/macrodobe
<jsgotangco> lol
<Madpilot> good point
<Madpilot> ;)
<poningru> :)
<poningru> quick question anyone know who evan dandrea is on irc?
<poningru> I wanted to get involved in his/her soc project
<ajmitch> what soc project is that one?
<poningru> the migration one
<ajmitch> that tells me nothing
<poningru> err hold on
<dsas> poningru: have you tried asking in #soc or something?
* poningru didnt know that existed
<dsas> i'm not sure if that's the correct channel name, but there is one
<dsas> ajmitch: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigrationAssistance
<poningru> yeah thats it
<Burgundavia> #soc is a gimp.net thing
<poningru> also
<poningru> http://riva.ucam.org/~cjwatson/blog/2006/05/26#2006-05-25-gsoc-ubiquity-migration-started
<ajmitch> could be useful
<poningru> #soc seems to be registered by cc people
<ajmitch> aw, mithrandir hasn't blogged about mentoring me yet ;)
<poningru> watchu workin on?
<ajmitch> network auth
<ajmitch> of course he doesn't exactly have much to write about
* ajmitch will probably have to talk with whoever's updating the server guide for edgy about documenting it
<poningru> network auth? link?
<ajmitch> NetworkAuthentication on wiki
<mgalvin> night all
<ajmitch> will update it soon with info about the server side of things
<poningru> ah nice
<poningru> yeah I would love to get involved in that... there is a argument at my uni regarding AD vs. ldap/kereberos
<poningru> etc.
* poningru goes to sleep
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, what are the rules this year with regards to other people helping you?
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: I'll have to check
<poningru> wait what does that mean?
<ajmitch> we're meant to do our own work
<poningru> ouch
<ajmitch> but it's hard not to work with others 
* ajmitch will have to find out what is & isn't allowed
<Laser_away> mdke: ping?
<Laser_away> mdke: I made an improved python script, I will commit translated .desktop files tomorrow
<jsgotangco> hmm why is there 4 kinds of gstreamer-ugly
<Madpilot> too much ugly for one package?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, should only be two multiverse and universe
<Burgundavia> anybody know where I can find an 80x15 free software button?
<jsgotangco> ahh its doc and for gdb
<Madpilot> there are several 80x15 images generators on the web, if you can't find a ready made one
<jsgotangco> what's the multiverse variant?
<Burgundavia> -multiverse
<jsgotangco> yes i mean what's the difference between -ugly
<Burgundavia> there should be -ugly and -ugly-multiverse
<jsgotangco> err yes what i mean exactly is what does -ugly-multiverse have that -ugly doesn't
<Burgundavia> ah, more codecs that cannot be shipped as part of unvierse
<Burgundavia> you would have to ask slomo for the exact breakdown
<Burgundavia> there are basically no docs on this, quite annoying
<jsgotangco> i only see gstlame
<Burgundavia> hmm, no idea
<Burgundavia> you know, I could kiss Scott Robinson right now
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> surely UI freeze doesn't matter up until the minute before release?
<ajmitch> great, launchpad is dead. again
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> so much for Mark's word at UBZ
<Burgundavia> night all
<dsas> the IdeaPool wiki page is just so frustrating, half of it is misplaced bug reports, some of the reset are dupes, and there's no way of 'replying' to people who's filed an idea.
<Madpilot> there's probably some actual good ideas buried in there somewhere, but good luck finding them...
<dsas> Probably, there is. I may just delete all the ones that I know have bugs filed.
<dsas> people try to use it for a discussion too - see the viruses bit.
<dsas> heh, or I would but I forgot about the LP problems.
<ajmitch> sometimes a wiki page is just the worst place for that sort of thing
<Madpilot> s/sometimes/usually. Even Mediawiki's Discuss pages get messy
<mdke> Laser_away: thanks so much!
<glatzor> hi mdke. you plan to update the translations of the manuals on http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ although we are already after the docu translation freeze?
<mdke> glatzor: The freeze applies to the release. After the release I hope to be updating the translation of the packages and the website at the same time
<glatzor> mdke: in which time frame? I have to plan my commitments for the next days :)
<mdke> glatzor: I don't really know. Probably 2 weeks after release? after that maybe monthly?
<glatzor> ok. so no urgent task for me:)
<mdke> glatzor: ok. Does that sound sensible to you?
<glatzor> mdke: I don't know how many translated strings are waiting in rosetta.
<mdke> nor do I
<mdke> I took them last week
<glatzor> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/desktopguide
<glatzor> looks good. many are completely translated now.
<mdke> yep, kubuntu needs some love though
<mdke> and xubuntu
<jsgotangco> ciao have a good weekend all
<glatzor> mdke: is there a way to create a local html or pdf version of a translated documentation? it would make reviewing a lot easier.
<mdke> glatzor: from the po file, or the xml file?
<glatzor> po file
<mdke> glatzor: you have to convert it into the separate xml files using the english version. See translate.sh in our repo
<glatzor> mdke: where can I find your repo?
<glatzor> you are using po2xml?
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper
<mdke> no, we use xml2po
<mdke> :)
<glatzor> :)
<mdke> so for example, this one is for the ubuntu desktop guide: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper/ubuntu/desktopguide/translate.sh
<glatzor> thanks
<glatzor> still on svn? :)
<mdke> looks like it
<mdke> Powered by Subversion version 1.2.0 (r14790).
<glatzor> you should use bzr :)
<mdke> glatzor: we've been discussing it quite a lot. So far I don't think we've found a good reason to use it
<glatzor> mdke: may I ask you why you don't use <guibutton> or <guilabel> instead of <filename> in the desktop guide?
<mdke> glatzor: we use all of those. If there is a specific example where it is used wrongly, that is accidental
<glatzor> "Optionsthatyouclick,select,orchooseinauserinterfacewillbeshown
<glatzor> in<filename>monospace</filename>type."
<glatzor> it's in the conventions chapter
<mdke> that is certainly wrong
<glatzor> is there a product in launchpad for the guides?
<mdke> yes, ubuntu-doc
<glatzor> I am going to fill a bug
<glatzor> report
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> it is present in every guide we have
<glatzor> mdke: do you use the gnome doc style guide as a reference?
<mdke> glatzor: roughly, we have our own styleguide though.
<glatzor> mdke: a public one? where can i find it?
<mdke> glatzor: http://doc.ubuntu.com
<sto6ma9ch> Hi! I'd like to help out the DocTeam, but I'm not too sure where to start. I saw that some work needed to be done on firewall configurations.
<glatzor> sto6ma9ch: hi. what do you want to contribute? you already have got a vague idea?
<sto6ma9ch> I'd like to help in the server area, but right now I'm just trying to see what really needs to be done. I have started learning the XML layout by examining the current svn stuff.
<sto6ma9ch> Does anybody have a suggestion regarding on what project to start?
<mdke> hi sto6ma9ch 
<mdke> we're in a bit of a limbo state right now, because we're just coming to the end of a release cycle
<mdke> we need to sort out our plans and ideas for the next release, then work can begin
<jsgotangco> hey
<sto6ma9ch> Ah, makes sense.
<mdke> sto6ma9ch: the server guide is certainly going to need lots of work, but we need to focus on how to go about it first
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> mdke: yup i agree
<sto6ma9ch> Are there any RSS feeds for Ubuntu DocTeam news or is the mailing list the preferred method of staying in touch?
<mdke> yep, mailing list
<sto6ma9ch> Sorry about all of the questions: when is the next meeting? The Wiki shows it as March 31.
<jsgotangco> we haven't been meeting much lately when the freeze started
<Laser_away> mdke: ping
<mdke> Laser_away: hello
<Laser_away> mdke: is there a rush on the .desktop files?
<Laser_away> I almost have a script that will update .desktops with the translated strings
<mdke> Laser_away: the sooner we have them, the more chance of getting them into dapper I suppose
<Laser_away> but I need tor drive to my Grandpa's this morning before I can finish it. It should be done in less then 5-6 hrs I'd guess
<Laser_away> ist that ok?
<mdke> Laser_away: of course! You're doing the kde users a big favour :)
<jsgotangco> you probably got 2 days till the image is frozen
<Laser_away> alright, I'm about to dive over (2hrs, \o/), I'll see you guys later
<Laser_away> *drive :-)
<mdke> cya matey
<mdke> thanks again
<glatzor> mdke: hm. the german translation of the desktop guide is in a quite questionable state. so i would like to see updates as soon as possible.
<Laser_away> mdke: what time is it there?
<Laser_away> mdke: nvm, google will know :-)
<sto6ma9ch> Anybody use an SVN GUI? Any recommendations?
<jsgotangco> esvn
<mdke> wtf
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowTo
<crimsun> mdke: ?
<mdke> i find that an odd page
<crimsun> it's fairly self-explanatory to those of us in the know, yes, but I don't see anything "wrong" per se with it
<mdke> there should be no such thing as a howto, IMO
<crimsun> ok, what's your rationale/approach?
<mdke> whenever I see a site which structures its documents according to how long they are, I know that I'm not going to be able to find what I'm looking for
<mdke>  * Howtos
<mdke>  * Tips and Tricks
<mdke>  * Manuals
<mdke> it's all information, and should be structured according to subject matter
<mdke> there's no rational dividing line between them anyhow
<crimsun> ok, I can see that. Would you drop the Howto moniker from wiki pages, then?
<mdke> absolutely
<mdke> it doesn't add anything
<crimsun> ok, I can see that, too
<mdke> I've got to "H" in my survey of documents in the wiki, so it's hurting
<crimsun> well, one of the problems is that people normally look to best practices, which currently stands at using said moniker
<mdke> does it say that?
<crimsun> I'm drawing from online documentation, the vast majority of which has some blather of Howtos
<mdke> ah yeah
<mdke> this is an awesome page name
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InputMethods/SCIM/CJK_Chinese_Japanese_Korean_Input_Method_configuration_using_SCIM_in_Ubuntu_6%2e06_Dapper_Drake?highlight=%28CategoryDocumentation%29
<crimsun> wow, that makes my eyes bleed ;-)
<LaserJock> hehe
<mdke> ok, I just noticed there are 6 or so guides to xgl
<mdke> so I went into #ubuntu-xgl and asked if they'd be interested in working on them to merge/integrate them
<mdke> so they promptly suggested starting another wiki at compiz.net and writing a new guide
<mdke> my god
<crimsun> so mdke, why don't you write a howto for cleaning up the wiki?
* crimsun flees
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> ok, they are listening to reason
<mdke> phew
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-28
<LaserJock> they really wanted to start a different wiki?
<Burgundavia> who, what?
<mdke> no worries
<mdke> Burgundavia: we need to think about the Bugs wiki pages
<mdke> in terms of the move
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<Burgundavia> hmm, another tricky one
<mdke> it's the sort of thing that should probably be in both
<Burgundavia> yucky
<mdke> Burgundavia: so you disagree with that then. What do you think?
<Burgundavia> mdke, no, I don't necessarily disagree, I just think we need a elegant solution
<Burgundavia> what about this split?
<mdke> don't forget it's easy to link/redirect between the two
<Burgundavia> ReportingBugs goes the doc wiki and HelpingWithBugs goes on the main one
<mdke> and Bugs?
<Burgundavia> that page is currently just two links, so it can exist on both
<mdke> yeah, that seems a rational split
<Burgundavia> hmm, something is wrong
<Burgundavia> it only took me about 20minutes to clear out my inbox this morning
<mdke> Burgundavia: will you do the appropriate categorising?
<Burgundavia> sure, can do right now
<Burgundavia> so drop cat doc from the helping ones?
<mdke> sounds good to me
<mdke> we'll have to correct some links on the ones which move and make them interwiki links, I guess
<Burgundavia> none of the helpingwithbugs pages are cat doc
<Burgundavia> however, they are all under Bugs but I don;t want to move them, due to large numbers of external links
<mdke> only Bugs and Bugs/FindRightPackage are Cat doc
<Burgundavia> hmm, that last one is a tough ne
<Burgundavia> because arguably it is both
<mdke> lets keep all bugs on the main wiki, shall we? Then we can create appropriate links to it from the new one maybe
<Burgundavia> sure
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> you know, I think the art team spends more time shuffling their wiki pages than actually creating art
<mdke> yeah, they are struglging
<Burgundavia> they need to shed some people, like we did
<mdke> I was thinking that they could do with a limited access repository
<mdke> it's a bit of a free-for-all AFAICS
<Burgundavia> http://24.69.71.211/ <-- any comments?
<mdke> include the "Ubuntu Canada" in the logo image, so it loads at the same time
<mdke> give a bit more vertical space to the headings 
<mdke> looks nice
<Burgundavia> ok, I will have my css boy do that
<mdke> the page width is rather odd
<Burgundavia> in what way?
<Burgundavia> the css is pretty hacky at the moment
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/canada.png
<Burgundavia> hmm, we add some horizontal space, but i will look at that, or rather Madpilot will
<mdke> website looks nice
<DBO> hey mdke, working on your project, there are several ways to install compiz, listing them all could get tedius and confusing for users, can I pick the most common ones?
<mdke> DBO: I'd suggest you pick the best ones, and say why they are the best. If others have different advantages, maybe list them as alternatives. What do you think?
<Burgundavia> DBO, is there one that is clearly better than the others?
<DBO> they each have up sides and down sides
<DBO> its not a matter of better, Xgl is too alpha...
<DBO> Not too mention we have AIGLX complicating the whole mess that is FAR too popular to ignore, which messes up the whol install framework =P  You will see
<DBO> seperating the install of compiz from the install of Xgl is the main issue I guess... most people do it together, but because of AIGLX, doing it seperate (though longer) makes a more uniform framework
<mdke> sounds sensible
<Burgundavia> DBO, where is xgl and aiglx being developed now?
<DBO> Burgundavia, thats one major problem... very seperately...
<DBO> Xgl is at Novell, developed behind mostly closed doors...
<Burgundavia> hmm, icky
<DBO> AIGLX is developed by the fedora project
<DBO> and Compiz is a love child of the two
<DBO> AIGLX supports mostly open drivers, Xgl closed drivers
<DBO> both run Compiz
<DBO> (well, a hacked compiz anyhow)
<Burgundavia> xgl is still being developed behind closed doors? It thought they were working on it now in the open
<DBO> mmhmmm...
<DBO> yes its open per say... but there is very little code sharing right now... so it makes almost no difference
<DBO> too much was done before it was opened
<DBO> hmmm, how do I make the wiki link itself without feeding full links?
<Burgundavia> DBO, just camel case it or ["Blahlink"] 
<Burgundavia> yes, moin sucks
* mdke slaps Burgundavia 
* Burgundavia sticks his tongue out at mdke 
<DBO> thanks Burgundavia 
<DBO> mdke, currently there is no AIGLX page, but it should be added, so I just made an under construction page for it
<Burgundavia> DBO, the big thing you can do is to merge all the bloody xgl pages into just one or two
<mdke> DBO: are you using subpages of Composite?
<DBO> mdke, doing Composite Manger (just setting it up)
<mdke> and using a subpage for AIGLX?
<DBO> mdke, you got it
<mdke> ok, sounds reasonable
<DBO> mdke, there is a master page that links to an Xgl install, an AIGLX install (only do one), Compiz install, and configuring Compiz
<DBO> since these are each different subjects and change on their own, plus different composite managers will come out (and are planned)
<mdke> ok. Just make sure you're not adding to the endless number of Xgl pages, but consolidating them :)
<DBO> Im trying to give you a modular format that you can plug any new things into without re-inventing the wheel...
<mdke> yeah, the structure sounds reasonable
<mdke> DBO: can you rename the page CompositeManager?
<mdke> DBO: and the subpages should be CompositeManager/SubPage
<DBO> mdke... uhhhh... Im sure I can figure that out, I havent really done any work on that page yet
<mdke> note the slash, otherwise they won't be subpages
<DBO> mmmm... ok
<DBO> what is the proper method to link sub pages?
<mdke> DBO: if the subpage has a WikiName, just writing the name of the page should be enough
<DBO> roger
<mdke> otherwise, ["Parent/Subpage"]  should work
<mdke> or something
<mdke> a nice way to make links is: [:Parent/Subpage:link text] 
* DBO hasnt done any real formatting yet
<mdke> np, just get the page names right and people will help tidy up the links
<DBO> would be handy if I could type...
<DBO> mdke, ok, excluding a couple minor things here an there (an out of control TOC and a couple broken links Im fixing) it is more or less done...
<mdke> cool
<Burgundavia> DBO, btw, I love that we have somebody working on this
<Burgundavia> now we just need somebody with a wacom...
<DBO> Im just a monkey
<DBO> do we have a writer grammar nazi person?
<mdke> we'll review the pages, for sure
<mdke> is everything from those other pages incorporated now?
<DBO> Well I might add things as I find them, but the general insanity is intact
<DBO> I had to change the install vector a bit, so it would be best to get a guinee pig in...
<DBO> (I will personally oversee any failure of his machine if something goes wrong)
<ghee22> hey does anyone have free time to kill?  isn't that the reason we're here?  :o)   I have a request that someone check out a very rough draft of Ubuntu Welcome center for comments on menu structuring.  You can see it at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center under the design category
<mdke> DBO: how about naming the subpages like this: InstallingCompiz, ConfiguringCompiz?
<mdke> a bit more natural
<DBO> because that requires editing the links you bum!  (fine fine)
<mdke> ghee22: the use cases are a bit dubious. Why is Ubuntu Welcome Center more effective than simply the Help System?
<mdke> it seems to me that the help system can respond 100% to that spec
<Burgundavia> mdke, were you here yesteday? we were discussing this in depth
<mdke> i didn't see that no
<mdke> who should I look for in the backlog?
<mdke> ah i see it
<ghee22> mdke:  hmm... good question.. what's the primary difference between both.  I think help is for specific problems.  the welcome center should be a holding hand for a new user and asks questions before they are asked.
<mdke> it seems to me that as the spec currently stands, you are going to be duplicating the help center quite a lot. Our guides are not at all limited to specific problems
<mdke> maybe you could just work on making the help system better
<DBO> mdke, ok, general insanity is all there, your new names are there...
<ghee22> mdke: unfortunately, I cannot change my project.  I was assigned this task per Google's SoC 2006.  If you feel the welcome center should be different, then please suggest away!
<mdke> ghee22: well you definitely need to define your use cases a bit more. At the moment they are both already arguably solved by the help system. It seems to me that "Work on making the help system user friendly, and then start it up on first boot" completes the spec
<Burgundavia> mdke, hmm, somebody working on yelp. That would be nice
<mdke> I haven't caught up on your discussion yesterday though really, so i dunno what others think
<mdke> Burgundavia: well, not necessarily on yelp itself, just on how we present the documentation. That spec is basically HelpfulHelp with a "first-boot" tacked on, afaics
<Burgundavia> yep
<mdke> and videos, and screenshots
<Burgundavia> the mentor sfflaw, you really knows nothing about this, so I think we need to take the lead and figure out what we need
<mdke> ghee22: in any case, I'm really glad you've come around here, because we need to work together to ensure that we're not going to be working on the same thing twice for the next release
<LaserJock> mdke: what are we going to do about the serverguide on server installs
<mdke> LaserJock: for dapper, it won't be installed
<mdke> LaserJock: do you know how that /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/html link came about?
<ghee22> mdke:  you can thank burgandavia, I was just wandering the development forums
<mdke> thanks Burgundavia 
* ghee22 also thanks burgandavia
<LaserJock> mdke: not sure
<DBO> ok, i did my good deed, shouldnt we credit the original author btw?
<mdke> DBO: wiki pages are generally made by loads of different people
* mdke notices that he also missed a book rant in the backlog
<DBO> mdke, ookie dokie
<mdke> DBO: thanks for your work, I'll check out the pages tomorrow
<DBO> mdke, ok sounds good
<LaserJock> mdke: doh, don't read the book rant backlog :)
<mdke> LaserJock: too late
<mdke> i know that rob trolls about this, but I understand part of where he is coming from. The book wasn't handled well
<ghee22> mdke:  have you seen the Tour Windows XP program?  It's under Start, Accessories if you have Windows XP.  It's design is very different from how Help is.  Although content is similar, Welcome Center answers most frequently asked questions to new users.  These questions are not like, "my printer won't print", but much more general such as, "I've installed Ubuntu, how do I write up a report?"  What do you think?
<mdke> LaserJock: it could be this: links:usr/share/ubuntu-docs/html/ usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/html
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> ghee22: yeah, I don't like the XP tour. But I still think that help should answer most frequently asked questions to new users, and do it in a way which is well structured so that the user can immediately see where to find out different things
<mdke> ghee22: it's a very complicated question though... i need to think about it :)
<LaserJock> mdke: doh
<mdke> LaserJock: what do you think one does about something like bug #47016? It is so trivial that it can't possibly justify an upload. Shall we fix it in our repository anyway?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 47016 in ubuntu-docs "Dapper RC's Ubuntu-docs package html softlink has missing target." [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47016
<ghee22> mdke:  ok, I see.  may I ask who you are?  I appreciate everyone's advice, since I'm new here, I like to know how much weight should be given to each person's comments.  Also, take your time, I really do appreciate even you listening.  If you see a better way to structure this, than by all means I'm all ears like corn
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, fix it and perhaps make a not somewhere (maybe start a new changelog entry) so that it is noted
<LaserJock> s/not/note/
<mdke> ghee22: my name is Matthew East (you can find out for everyone by typing /whois nickname )
<LaserJock> ghee22: mdke is basically the doc team leader and is one heck of a guy :-)
* mdke slips LaserJock a tenner
<LaserJock> lol
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, I'll make a changelog entry, I'll bump the version number up to 6.06.1 too, is that right? (we're currently still on 6.05.6)
* ghee22 slaps self on forehead in shame
<LaserJock> yeah, make sure to but something like (Closes: Malone #47016)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 47016 in ubuntu-docs "Dapper RC's Ubuntu-docs package html softlink has missing target." [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47016
<ghee22> yes I now remember your name mdke, seen in many places on ubuntu site
<mdke> pleased to meet you
<ghee22> and I, you.  I shall prove myself worthy.
<mdke> eh
<mdke> you don't need to do that
<ghee22> ok
* ghee22 goes to sleep
<ghee22> so, just so you know, I'm working with Simon Law as my mentor.  He's been especially busy with Dapper release so I've had no contact with him.  Do you work with him at all?
<mdke> ghee22: no, he is the new Bug quality assurance guy
<mdke> seems nice
<Burgundavia> he is quite nice and lives in Montreal
<Burgundavia> but yes, he is crazy busy
<mdke> not sure why he was chosen though
<Burgundavia> so realistically I think you can consider us your mentors
<mdke> yet again though, it would have been nice if the docteam had been consulted about specs like that before making decisions about SoC
<ghee22> mdke:  I see.  I wonder why I was given him as a mentor, rather than a doc duede
<mdke> ghee22: yeah, I'm going to ask.
<mdke> anyway, we can all work together anyhow
<Burgundavia> ghee22, I suspect because he is a canonical employee and thus is going to be around, mostly guarenteed
* mdke thinks that there is too much blurring between canonical and ubuntu these days
<Burgundavia> mdke, that is a good thing
<ghee22> yes, I agree.  which is why I'm here.  Ok, great.  I'm gonna continue filling out more "marketing speak" for each category.  If anyone sees a major problem with the way I've laid out the menu structure, please let me know ASAP. this is because I'm already writing details for each category and major change in structure will make this work fruitless.  I really appreciate anyone's help, and will one day give you a six pack to prove it.
<Burgundavia> ghee22, is that that freemind thing?
* Burgundavia is allergic to Java
<ghee22> yes, I've also exported to svg.  in anticipation of allergy season
<mdke> Burgundavia: well, I'm not sure. Someone pointed out to me recently that the whole point of setting up the ubuntu foundation was to recognise that there are potential conflicts of interest between canonical and ubuntu development, and to ensure that ubuntu development was separated from canonical's commercial projects. But it seems to me that things have gone in the opposite direction
<Burgundavia> mdke, I don't see an issue
<Burgundavia> the ubuntu foundation is now mostly dormant. The money is a lifeboat now
<mdke> yeah, but it wasn't announced like that
<Burgundavia> no, it wasn't
<mdke> Burgundavia: i checked the announcement, it was
<mdke> "It's important for us to distinguish the philanthropic and non-commercial work that is at the heart of the Ubuntu project, from the commercial support and certification programs that are the focus of Canonical Ltd." said Mark Shuttleworth
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> currently I haven't seen any conflict
<mdke> I didn't think there was an issue either
<mdke> but recently it has started to play on my mind
<Burgundavia> there are too many smart people at canonical for that too happen
<Burgundavia> the only thing I can possibly see as canonical overriding the community would be with LP
<mdke> I had to push quite hard to ensure that the word "Commercial" got into the link to marketplace in the help menu
<Burgundavia> it is not clear to me that LP, specifically malone, has been a win
<mdke> and there is LP too
<mdke> and the Book being pushed into the help menu
<Burgundavia> I don't that is a canonical thing
<Burgundavia> that is a Mark thing
<mdke> could be
<Burgundavia> in fact, I suspect LP was a mark thing too
<mdke> but don't forget, that Mark is the boss of Canonical
<Burgundavia> yes, I think it is key to seperate Mark things from Canonical things
<mdke> anyhow, you're right, so far no problem
<mdke> but that passage I quoted has certainly not been implemented
<Burgundavia> because Mark does crazy shit seperate from Canonical
<Burgundavia> I had a good chat with mako and jdub about the foundation one day and learned about the strategic refocus
<Burgundavia> look how fedora did the same thing
<mdke> hmm?
<Burgundavia> ghee22, to get your some feedback
<Burgundavia> ghee22, I don't see logic to the organization
<Burgundavia> for me, the menu should mirror the real one, with an addition for community
<ghee22> burgundavia: I'm listening
<LaserJock> mdke: I've seen development from a few sides now and I have my concerns as well
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, it's just something that has played on my mind a bit recently, nothing particularly significant
<Burgundavia> the one place I can see Caonical interfering into Ubuntu development is with suport contracts
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I think the Edubuntu backgound is an example
<mdke> an example is that the Ubuntu website advertises for employees to work on canonical, including non-Ubuntu projects
<Burgundavia> but I have not yet found a place where it makes sense where screwing Ubuntu help Canonical
<ghee22> ahhh, so menu should be: Accessories, Games, Internet, Office, Sound & Video
<Burgundavia> ghee22, you can probably drop accessories, given there is nothing to talk about
<ghee22> yes, but if we drop accessories, we are not mirroring it anymore.
<Burgundavia> IE: if you need to talk about something, it should be in the same order as the menus
<ghee22> which is the same as my menu is right now... not mirroring
<Burgundavia> yep, not mirroring, but following
<Burgundavia> bad choice of words on my part
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, mdke I think this next year is critical, because this is when the big support contracts are going to start rolling in
<Burgundavia> we will start seeing if there is a conflict
<ghee22> it's ok, I'm quite literal at times.  not all the time but when it comes to work stuff, I try to stay literal since it's already difficult enough to use words to describe what I'm thinking
<mdke> LaserJock: what happened with the edubuntu background?
<LaserJock> mdke: Canonical forced the new background even the though the community and even ogra and JaneW didn't want it
<mdke> why?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, what background was this
<Burgundavia> ?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: the new chalkboard background
<mdke> Burgundavia: anyway, you agree now that the foundation was announced as separating Canonical's commercial interests from Ubuntu development?
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes it was, much like the Fedora one was
<mdke> Burgundavia: right (you said earlier that it wasn't). And do you agree that that hasn't happened?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, tbh, the other background was much too busy. I would have voted for the chalkboard merely on that
<LaserJock> mdke: Canonical payed an outside company to do the background, and in the end we had a much better community done one but it is not default because of a Canonical decision
<mdke> that sucks
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, do we even have an svg of that background?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: perhaps but ogra, JaneW, highvoltage were all against it, which means a lot to me
<Burgundavia> also, remember that the art situation has been a mess
<LaserJock> I agree
<Burgundavia> and looks matter
<LaserJock> I hope Canonical and the Ubuntu learn from the Dapper artwork situation
<mdke> LaserJock: they never learn, it's always last minute crack
<Burgundavia> what the artwork team needs to strong community leadership, much like we have
<Burgundavia> mdke, nobody has ever enforced a deadline on them
<mdke> Burgundavia: it's difficult to enforce a deadline on Mark
<Burgundavia> yep
* Burgundavia is truly unhappy about artwork
<mdke> so, how about my question?
<Burgundavia> twice now I have warned about this, in fact at UBZ, mark personally gave me his word
<LaserJock> mdke: this is the new one http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/dapper_art/chalkboard.png
<Burgundavia> yep, I agree the foundation hasn't happened as it laid out, but I don't think that is a bad thing
<Burgundavia> our community goverence structures are working well (CC and TB)
<mdke> Burgundavia: here's how I see it. Avoiding conflicts of interest are essentially about being _seen_ to be independent, rather than necessarily actually being independent (as discussed, I don't see big problems there). However if you announce something big like that, and then deviate without any public announcement, that is a bad thing, I think
<Burgundavia> for one, by keeping canonical this close to Ubuntu might be a good thing
<Burgundavia> deviating was a Mark thing, I think
<mdke> I don't think that really answers the point
<mdke> LaserJock: greeeeeen
<ghee22> ACTION updates svg at http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jigtopi/Ubuntu/ Burgundavia: ok, so here's what we have right now in order:  Start Here, Productivity, Digital Media, Finding what you need, Staying Connected, Fun & Games, Easy Configuration, Safe Personal Computing,  Support, Community.. I understand it's extremely busy (many categories).  Before I superbash your idea, may I ask where you are going with having the same names as th
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, and that hit only a week ago or so
<Burgundavia> ghee22, the reason I use the same terms is that is because what people are going to go and see
<Burgundavia> what does  "staying connected" mean? Internet is much clearer
<mdke> ok, this is going to make the help system totally redundant ;)
<mdke> not that that is necessarily a bad thing
<Burgundavia> no, I was about to say that
<mdke> i just have this impulse that the two things should be the same
<ghee22> yeah, it's really difficult to maintain the direction I think this should go without a constant reminder that this is not a help program.  :o(
<Burgundavia> hmm, ghee22's project is a real challenge for us, because it can be such a good thing, yet..
<mdke> this is ghee22 it _is_ a help program
<mdke> whoops
<mdke> s/this is//
<mdke> you are basically mapping out a good structure for what the front page of the help system should look like
<Burgundavia> ghee22, what are supposed to be the deliverables of your project?
<LaserJock> mdke: this is the community contributed Edubuntu background, if your interested: http://www.progbox.co.uk/33.jpg
<ghee22> ok, here are specs that were assigned to me, with no additions of mine
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, personally, that looks nice but I would not use it as a background
<mdke> LaserJock: actually, I have to say that i don't like that. The world idea is nice, just too green
<ghee22> A GUI application that assist the user with the application that he will be using in GNOME, and the capabilities of Ubuntu. The application must be attractive and easy to use for new users to easily adopt in Ubuntu.
<mdke> ghee22: that's yelp, isn't it?
<ghee22> laserjock:  I think it's a smart idea, but it is very green.  
<Burgundavia> it is a blackboard, after all
<LaserJock> yeah, but people didn't want a blackboard
<Burgundavia> (ignoring the insanity of calling something a blackboard when it is green)
<LaserJock> anyway, my point is that the Edubuntu was not given a choice, they *had* to use the one they were given
<mdke> LaserJock: anyhow, regardless of what I think of it, you're right. The community should have a lot of weight. And the team leads even more so
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, you have an Edubuntu council
<ghee22> mdke:  so how about I just submit yelp and we'll split the $4500?
<ghee22> /me drools over new laptop he can purchase
<Burgundavia> hell, you sit on it,
<Burgundavia> raise it there
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: but all members of the Council were against it and it did nothing
<Burgundavia> that is an issue
<mdke> ghee22: who assigned you this? I'd like to talk to them to find out more details about what they had in mind
<Burgundavia> I would then raise that with the community council
<mdke> LaserJock: ouch, that is an immense issue
<ghee22> mdke: no assignment details.  just mentor.  please don't remove my project!
<mdke> ghee22: sure, I wouldn't dream of it
<mdke> ghee22: but I'd like to find out more details about what they had in mind
<Burgundavia> ghee22, there are too many places we can use someone who can cute code
<LaserJock> my personal opinion is that Canonical got stuck with paying for all this artwork and so had to use it
<Burgundavia> s/cute/cut
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, likely
<Burgundavia> because they feared having no artwork
<Burgundavia> a correct fear, in the case of the currently melting down ubuntu art team
<ghee22> bugundavia: I'm not following, cut code?
<Burgundavia> program
<mdke> i think he means write code
<LaserJock> I'm not really mad about it but it is an example of the Canonical/Ubuntu interaction being not always positive
<mdke> indeed it is
<mdke> the relationship between Canonical and the community is a really interesting one
<mdke> so difficult to get it right
<Burgundavia> at least it is not as bas the Fedora/RH one
<Burgundavia> how about Novell/OpenSuse
<mdke> yeah, i think the Ubuntu community is generally well used
<mdke> which is thanks to the foresight they had right at the beginning when setting up the governance processes
<LaserJock> oh, for sure, I'm still around and I believe in Ubuntu
<ghee22> ahh, but my passion is about a welcome center.  it comes from giving ubuntu to friends and family and answering the same questions over and over again:  what do I use to chat, browse, write papers.  Putting answers in an attractive interface is what I proposed after seeing that spec.  Also, having a flashy introduction and using video screenshots to show users how to perform exactly what I document them to do.
<mdke> but I do think there are lots of places that it could be done better
<LaserJock> but I must say that presently I trust the Ubuntu community more than Canonical itself
<mdke> ghee22: I see where you are coming from, definitely.
<ghee22> mdke:  where do you think it can be better
<ghee22> please keep in mind that I have deadlines, which is why I'm so eager to know how y'all think this should be done.  yes, that is an annoying comment and I apologize for it.  I just don't want to lose out on this opportunity
<Burgundavia> ghee22, we recognize that
<mdke> ghee22: I don't know, I'd read the spec and maybe we can discuss on the mailing list. i just think that the project as conceived has ignored the help system, and I feel instinctively that it is a bad idea for the two things to develop separately. But that's not your fault
<ghee22> Burgundavia & mdke:  I'm glad.  it's a little frustrating as my assigned boss hasn't replied to me and I know I shouldn't put this on you, but what does he think is important since he is whom I'm assigned to currently.
<mdke> ghee22: is there a reason your project isn't on http://code.google.com/soc/ubuntu/about.html ?
<ghee22> yikes
<mdke> ghee22: btw your mentor has been at debconf so maybe that is why he hasn't replied
* ghee22 sees own heart drop
<mdke> ghee22: well, if you got an email saying that you're assigned to it, then it must be official
<Burgundavia> ghee22, you know they screwed up on the emailing?
<mdke> seriously?
<Burgundavia> yep, sent confirmed to everybody
<mdke> don't joke though
<Burgundavia> ghee22, your student website is correct
<mdke> they repaired it right?
<Burgundavia> no, I am not joking
<Burgundavia> they sent a 2nd email which is correct
<ghee22> yes, but they said the website has the correct information. which it says my application is accepted for
<Burgundavia> if your website says so, it is likely a bug
<ghee22> and I'm on a maling list from janew with an assigned menrot.. this doesn't make sense
<Burgundavia> sfflaw did also confirm to me that he is mentoring
<ghee22> bet you can tell I'm shaky, can't spell properly
<mdke> ok, so it's probably just missing from the google page
<mdke> sounds like they've made a mess of this
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<mdke> not surprising though, considering that they've been given like a million projects
<Burgundavia> 610, to be exact
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<mdke> no, i mean Ubuntu has been allocated a lot by google
<Burgundavia> yep
<mdke> considering fedora have like 4 or something
<Burgundavia> interesting kde got 24 and gnome 20
<mdke> they need it more :p
<ghee22> my friend working at google say they use a customized derivative, goobutnu, so it makes sense to give ubuntu money in a public fashion improving their own goobuntu while looking charitable
<mdke> true yeah
<ghee22> mdke:  haha, the flame grows
<ghee22> I am now wondering why simon has replied back yet. it's been 3 days.
<mdke> ghee22: as I said, he's been at a conference, not much network access
<ghee22> mdke: I see.
<Burgundavia> and his jobs involves lots and lots of email
<LaserJock> seriously, he is going through every bug report in Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> poor bastard
<mdke> yeah, not fun
<Burgundavia> he is nice guy though
<Burgundavia> he was at UBZ
<mdke> oh yeah?
<mdke> I like his blog posts
<LaserJock> I don't know where he gets times to write them
<LaserJock> but I like them too
<mdke> DBO: on the CompositeManager page you've linked to some of the Ubuntu wiki guides we were hoping that we could nuke. Is there material still on those pages which isn't in your new system?
<DBO> mdke, oops, lemme dig through and see what I can find
<DBO> where are you looking?
<DBO> mdke, oh those on the main page, yeah I nuke those now
<DBO> ok, those are gone
<DBO> nuke away (but at least keep copies since this hasnt been guinie pigged)
<Burgundavia> DBO, make certain before you nuke that they have not been linked
<Burgundavia> in fact, due to the popularity of xgl, I would say redirect only
<DBO> Burgundavia, oh no no, dont be silly, Im not nuking anything, thats your job
<DBO> you guys have the ubuntu masks =P  Im just a geek
<Burgundavia> the masks mean nothing
<mdke> DBO: we'll nuke. Is everything now contained on the pages you did? How about the specific ati/nvidia stuff?
<DBO> ati and nvidia driver installs are NOT on these pages... and they shouldn't be
<DBO> basically all the pages say is you need to have those drivers installed and link to the driver install pages
<mdke> well, that might be worth saying
<DBO> you mean go through the whole nvidia driver install procedure again???
<mdke> no no
<mdke> i mean, does this page add anything? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/xglati
<Burgundavia> nope
<DBO> well its got one gotchya
<DBO> but thats mostly outdated now
<DBO> you can nuke that with impunity
<DBO> and for the love of zombie jesus somebody please help me with the formatting on the TOC of the Compiz Configure page
<DBO> its crazy
<mdke> I did that
<DBO> thanks =)
<mdke> I'm going to reorganise the front page a bit too
<DBO> mdke, hey, I told you me bad writer, me just make everything in more organized format
<DBO> (modular)
<mdke> heh, you've done a good job, thanks
<Burgundavia> let me second that
<Burgundavia> I was just looking at those pages yesterday and getting depressed
<DBO> the problem was fairly simple
<DBO> everyone was writing the walkthroughs by installing Xgl and Compiz at the same time, this requires different walkthroughs for ATI or Nvidia
<Burgundavia> most people are bad at abstracting what they do into more general docs
<DBO> I just took the existing walkthrough and parsed out the right parts into different sections =P
<DBO> ok, thats much better than my version lol
<DBO> xserver links are broke now though (actually just not there)
<mdke> yes, sorry
<mdke> are you editing?
<DBO> mmm not anymore
<DBO> i didnt fix it
<DBO> i just wanted to see what was up with it...
<mdke> ok
<DBO> I was gonna donkey them in there, but figured you might have a more elegant solution
<mdke> yeah, I'll do it
<mdke> you've got the editing lock though
<DBO> hmmm...
<DBO> try now
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, the server guide titles are kinda messed up
<mdke> LaserJock: eh?
<mdke> DBO: ok, sorted, thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: it uses an entity that looks weird when translated
<LaserJock> mdke: <title><phrase></phrase>  </title> for instance
<mdke> LaserJock: oh bugger
<LaserJock> the entity puts in <phrase> tags for Ubuntu I think
<mdke> LaserJock: any other titles that might suffice which are clean?
<mdke> (where he hasn't used that entitle)
<mdke> DBO: what about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NestedXglHowto does that add anything?
<DBO> mdke, well its an offshoot of xgl server...
<DBO> lemme look
<LaserJock> mdke: oh, actually the .omf files look like they will work
<DBO> yes it does, yes it should be seperate because it is abnormal
<mdke> LaserJock: phew
<mdke> DBO: can it be made into another subpage?
<DBO> mdke, sure if you like
<DBO> just change the linkage
<LaserJock> the server guide was the only one with that problem
<mdke> DBO: ok, i'll look
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah
<mdke> DBO: i'm starting the nuking
<DBO> mdke, Im praying to my respective diety
<mdke> DBO: anything extra in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XglHowto ?
<DBO> mmmm, its a different method, I dont like it, can you make it non-public?
<DBO> instead of a full nuking
<DBO> that particular method is rather hackish
<mdke> we can't make it non-public
<mdke> if it's wrong, it should go
<DBO> mdke, well it DOES work... its just... an odd way to do it...
<DBO> like I said, Xgl is very alpha...
<DBO> go ahead and nuke it
<DBO> I can put it back in if we need to later
<mdke> ok
<DBO> what they did there was take the symlink that points to xorg normally and pointed it at xgl... this has the very negative effect of causing ALL xservers to use that... not just the ones you want
<mdke> that's what matt said to do in his original post to ubuntu-devel when he uploaded xgl packages, iirc
<DBO> yeah... we dont like that solution... it makes a hack of a hack
<mdke> ok, nearly done
<LaserJock> mdke: umm, the packaging guide .desktop is misspelled as packaginguide.desktop
<LaserJock> rather than packagingguide.desktop
<DBO> btw, I prefer to go through this war anonymous... so erm, if you need to identify use my launchpad username, k? =)
<mdke> LaserJock: not sure, perhaps it doesn't matter
<mdke> i'll fire up khelpcenter and see
<Burgundavia> DBO, is there some issue with using Ubuntu?
<mdke> DBO: thanks very much for your work
<DBO> Burgundavia, what I mean is anything I do on the wiki or any projects I do I prefer to do without attatching them to DBO... I like to stay relatively low key =)
<Burgundavia> ah
<DBO> this is my weekend off, anyone in detroit wanna go for beers?
<DBO> wait, this isnt offtopic, sorry
<Burgundavia> DBO, there is a pretty big community in detriot
<DBO> I know it =)
<mdke> ok, all done
* DBO observes a moment of silence for all the fallen Xgl pages
<DBO> anything else that needs technical documentation?
<mdke> heh, yeah
<DBO> what you got on your plate?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo
<LaserJock> mdke: the .desktop looks ok in khelpcenter?
<DBO> oh wow you guys are asking for pain
<LaserJock> no, only perfection ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah
<mdke> looks fine, I don't think it matters what it is called
<LaserJock> k, I'll leave it alone
<DBO> you guys have a lot of these guides already though... just not linked to the pages you seem to want...
<mdke> it appears to be half past three
<LaserJock> argh
<LaserJock> go to bed
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> mdke: commited
<mdke> ooh
<mdke> all of it?
<LaserJock> the .desktops
<mdke> that's so awesome
<mdke> LaserJock: can you put the script in too? it will allow us to rerun it when we get more translations
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I just need to modify it to look to see if the translation is already present
<LaserJock> so we don't have duplicates
<mdke> LaserJock: brilliant. You're a star
<LaserJock> heh, not really. I'm just trying to learn python and so I'm slow but it is still worthwile for me for a learning experience
<mdke> i appreciate it a lot
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<Madpilot> is launchpad down again?
<crimsun> yes.
<crimsun> 502
<crimsun> it was having problems yesterday iirc, and daniel h. had to sms someone
<Madpilot> thanks - provided it's not just me ;)
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salut Burgundavia
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi how's the weekend
<Burgundavia> not bad
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco is trying to finish a section in his book project
<Burgundavia> KristianHermann hit again on the wiki
<jsgotangco> vandal?
<Madpilot> our aptitude quasi-vandal?
<Burgundavia> yep, him
<jsgotangco> lol personally i'd use aptitude but then, apt itself is the most popular and visible tool
<Burgundavia> is k3b installed by default on Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Madpilot> all the work that needs doing on the wiki, and he's chasing around fiddly nonsense like s/apt-get/aptitude... 
<jsgotangco> considering d-i uses aptitude as well
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: it can be considered religious...on the apt/aptitude issue
<Madpilot> quite likely ;)
<jsgotangco> both have the same purpose but aptitude handles it with grace
<jsgotangco> me and my peers talked about it before for a project but decided apt is too popular to upset the norm
<jsgotangco> (not to mention upstream favours it heavily for users)
<crimsun> someone suggested removing $apt and just saying "install ..."
<crimsun> I'm in favour of that approach
<jsgotangco> crimsun: yeah that's a good approach, probably just mention your choices at the beginning
<Burgundavia> that has always been our approach in the svn docs
<Burgundavia> we are now just carrying it into the wiki ones
<jsgotangco> well good luck on that
<Burgundavia> I have already done bits and pieces of the work
<jsgotangco> we could always make people's lives miserable by favouring dselect ;)
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, where are you logged in with jsgAWAY 
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> hmm sorry that's my machine at work
<jsgotangco> i forgot to turn it off
<jsgotangco> i should ssh and kill it
<jsgotangco> (if i could only remember that host)
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: should be easy enough :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<Burgundavia> ok, time to cleanup the IdeaPool page
<ghee22> 
<Madpilot> hmm?
<ghee22> Madpilot: just testing gaim's capability's for irc.  closed server "IM box" but testing if it kept my connection to server by typing in this channel.. apparently it's smart enough to.
<Madpilot> gaim is smart? ;)
* ghee22 chuckles
<crimsun> gaim's pretty nice for IM, but imo it's ludicrous for irc.
<glatzor> mdke: is it ok if I add a German saying to the LoCoTeam section of the desktop guide
<glatzor> it is "think global, act local" and is quite prominent.
<mdke> glatzor: what section is that?
<glatzor> "Theseareself-organizedgroupsofUbuntuenthusiastswhowanttobringthe
<glatzor> Ubuntucommunityontoalocallevel."
<mdke> yeah sure
<glatzor> thanks
<mdke> good idea, as long as you don't break anything
<glatzor> I will try to not do so :)
<glatzor> mdke: should the urls that point to ubuntu websites use https instead of http?
<glatzor> https isn't allowed in China, right?
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> it should redirect anyhow
<mdke> actually, seems the website is on http
<glatzor> mdke: but i always get the notification that the ubuntu certificate is not a valid one. wasn't mark the founder of thwate? :)
<glatzor> and you cannot be redirected if you cannot connect to the server via https
<mdke> glatzor: yes, the correct website is http://www.ubuntu.com
<glatzor> i will collect all wrong urls in a bug
<mdke> glatzor: do the urls point at https:// ?
<glatzor> mdke: some
<glatzor> or actually one that i can remember now
<mdke> ah
<glatzor> wait I will do a grep
<glatzor> mdke: about 10 or so
<mdke> glatzor: to the website? I didn't think we had so many links
<glatzor> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org//14769
<mdke> glatzor: dude, there is nothing to the website in there
<glatzor> mdke: this was a grep "https desktopguide.po"
<glatzor> the wiki is not part of the ubuntu webiste?
<mdke> glatzor: the wiki is https
<mdke> so is launchpad
<glatzor> ok
<pigreco314> exit
* mdke thinks about switching to thunderbird
<mdke> looks pretty good
<highvoltage> what are you using now, mdke?
<mdke> evolution
<highvoltage> thunderbird is great
<mdke> but it's pissing me off
<highvoltage> so is evolution :)
<highvoltage> why?
<mdke> has thunderbird got reply-to-list yet?
<mdke> highvoltage: just very slow and loads of bugs which never get answered
<highvoltage> hmmm.. i use evolution for all my lists, so i'm not sure :)
<highvoltage> yeah, thunderbird is quite slow
<highvoltage> especially with imap
<mdke> i get the feeling it will be higher quality software than evolution
<dsas> no reply to list in thunderbird yet.
<dsas> (if ever)
<mdke> meh
<mdke> if I use newsgroups for the mailing lists, rather than email, that will solve the "absence of reply-to-list" I suppose
<mdke> it has "reply to newsgroup"
<mdke> hmm, it isn't previewing messages in my imap folder
<mdke> now it is
<mdke> looks rather good
<highvoltage> mdke: which ipod do you have?
<highvoltage> mdke: i have a nano and hate that i have to transcode my oggs to mp3 for it
<mdke> mini 1st gen
<mdke> should work on the nano though
<highvoltage> anything that works worse than with the apple firmware?
<mdke> highvoltage: well, it's not so sexy... otherwise everything working well
<mdke> a few wrinkles were sorted out by asking on #rockbox
<mdke> obviously its not as polished as the apple firmware, but for me it does the job, and playing oggs is a massive improvement
<mdke> another plus is that I don't need some clever app to put my music on it
<mdke> i just use nautilus and do mass copying from my computer
<highvoltage> ah nice
<mdke> highvoltage: the first evening I was using it, it crashed twice, but since then I haven't seen that again
<mdke> I'd say give it a try
* highvoltage will
<highvoltage> i wanted to give ipodlinux a try too, but it's badly supported for nanos
<highvoltage> i originally wanted to buy a device that plays .oggs, but they are either too bulky, or to expensive
<mdke> how is the nano?
<mdke> fairly robust?
<highvoltage> yep
<mdke> cool
<highvoltage> although the interface is a bit irritating if you're used to a motorola phone's interface
<mdke> I've had my mini a year and a half now, it's still going strong (touch wood)
<highvoltage> things work exaclty the opposite to that
<mdke> oh, the battery doesn't last as long as with the Apple firmware, btw
<mdke> fairly predictably
<highvoltage> how much less?
<highvoltage> still a day at least?
<mdke> no, I doubt it
<mdke> my mini doesn't last a day even with the apple firmware ;)
<mdke> not sure
<david__> hello
<highvoltage> hi david__ 
<david__> I have a problem with Dapper Drake, where would I report that?
<mdke> david__: #ubuntu
<david__> thanks
<ajmitch> mdke: not malone?
<ajmitch> the poor guy is getting bounced from channel to channel
<mdke> ajmitch: well, i figured it might not be a bug and he can find out more in #ubuntu
<ajmitch> preinst script failing..
<ajmitch> and #ubuntu+1 is for dapper
<mdke> well, I always go to #ubuntu even with dapper questions
<mdke> i don't think distinguishing by version number is a good way to give irc support, myself
<mdke> anyway, I hope he finds the answer
<mdke> hi luzi 
<mdke> I didn't find any solution yet to the image sizing.
<mdke> luzi: what stylesheets were you using when you built it?
<luzi> hi mdke
<luzi> mdke, i used just what's in SVN, plus this : -<xsl:import href="/home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl"/>
<luzi> +<xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/fo/docbook.xsl"/>
<luzi> in libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl
<mdke> luzi: ok, so you used the 1.68 stylesheets
<mdke> lemme try that with fop 1.92beta
<mdke> no, same thing
<mdke> luzi: we really need to use fop 1.92beta, especially for building the lulu pdfs
<luzi> hm. so should i go ahead and try it with <mediaobject> instead of <graphic> ?
<mdke> luzi: if you don't mind, I think it's worth a try.
<luzi> alright, i'll try it. can you hint me at where i would have to do scaling in the stylesheet?
<mdke> luzi: I think it should be automatic, but lemme look it up
<mdke> looks like you don't do it in the stylesheets, but in the text itself. http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ImageSizing.html
<luzi> mdke, i've now replaced <graphic> with <mediaobject> locally. i've not added scaling params yet. the result is still the same for me. do you want to try if this already makes a difference for you?
<luzi> i could send you a patch or just commit it.
<mdke> luzi: yeah, either sounds great, thanks
<luzi> mdke, here you go: http://www.doink.ch/xubuntu-doc/graphic-to-mediaobject-patch.diff
<luzi> mdke, i've tried with fop1.92beta, and the imaged do now overlap... so this is indeed the problem.
<luzi> it's actually fop0.92beta, but anyway
<LaserJock> morning doc people
<crimsun> 'afternoon
<mdke> luzi: I'll try it, thanks. And if there are more problems I'll ask on the fop mailing list
<LaserJock> hehe, I got to tell my grandpa about lulu.com last night
<LaserJock> he has all this geneology material that he would like to get to put in book form
<luzi> mdke, i think i just fixed with with rev3112. can you please verify?
<mdke> luzi: I will give it a try this evening, nice work
<luzi> mdke, alright, i'm off then. let me know whether it worked or not!
<ompaul> now that warty is retired should packages.ubuntu.com only reference the sources for it so it can be dropped in a couple of years
<mdke> luzi: will do!
<luzi> byebye
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<mdke> jsgotangco: hi
<jsgotangco> mdke: do you have the link for the translated websites? (website-index po)
<mdke> jsgotangco: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/website-index
<jsgotangco> no no no
<jsgotangco> i mean on the website itself
<mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/index.cc.html
<jsgotangco> d.u.c/foo/foo whatever
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> tnx
<mdke> np
* mdke goes to cook
<LaserJock> hmm, software channel doesn't sound very good to me
<mdke> LaserJock: me neither
<LaserJock> mdke: I like the repository sound, I imagine a software holding tank, but maybe it is not so easy to translate
<LaserJock> software channel reminds me of tv
<mdke> me too
<mdke> you know, I think everything is ready for the brand new help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> highvoltage, LaserJock, did the question of edubuntu wiki documentation get resolved?
<highvoltage> mdke: i think so
<highvoltage> mdke: actually, your blog entry explained things very well
<mdke> highvoltage: i thought I kinda just repeated my email ;) So is it going to be included in the move?
<highvoltage> mdke: kinda
<highvoltage> mdke: make that a yes
<mdke> hmm?
<highvoltage> we're going to put mature docs that's not going to be edited (or doesn't need much future editing) on the website
<highvoltage> things that's common to ubuntu/edubuntu/xubuntu should move along to the new wiki, for example, the LTSP pages
<mdke> hmm
<highvoltage> mdke: am i being too vague?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: is there are reason to not put the work-in-progress docs there?
<mdke> shame people won't be able to find the edubuntu docs on the help.u.c site, maybe we can make redirects or something
<mdke> aha, Burgundavia 
<highvoltage> LaserJock: yes, although a very simple, and easy to fix one. people can't register themselves yet, because we're just waiting on znarl to configure mail on the box
<highvoltage> LaserJock: but we could eventually do it, yes
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: salut
<Burgundavia> mdke, you need me?
<Burgundavia> salut highvoltage 
<mdke> Burgundavia: hiya. Was wondering, have you had a look through CategoryDocumentation looking for non-docs?
<mdke> highvoltage: so you're going to be working on edubuntu docs elsewhere?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: people can't register themselves for what?
<Burgundavia> mdke, nope
<highvoltage> LaserJock: on the drupal site
<highvoltage> LaserJock: i think i may have misunderstood you
<mdke> Burgundavia: ah, ok
<mdke> Burgundavia: I'm at "m"
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ah, ok. the reason why we're not moving the 'done' docs to the wiki, is to avoid future maintenance
<Burgundavia> ok
<highvoltage> LaserJock: and so that the user knows where to find edubuntu specific docs
<mdke> highvoltage: you could lock a page down on the new wiki, as an alternative. That way you get all the docs in the same place
<mdke> Burgundavia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LuffyDiMonkey <-- this can go, don't you think?
<mdke> ah interesting
<mdke> LaserJock: lots of the subpages of MOTU are marked with CategoryDocumentation. I think they should stay on the main wiki, is that right?
<Burgundavia> yep
<LaserJock> It sort of depends
<highvoltage> mdke: we could do that, but the purpose isn't so much to lock it down, as to have it searchable from the website search button
<highvoltage> mdke: and for that we need to have it in drupal
<highvoltage> mdke: why would you want it to move with to the doc wiki? for searching purposes?
<LaserJock> we have a fair amount of documentation for learning how to package, etc. most users probably wouldn't be interested though
<mdke> highvoltage: well, i just thought it would be nice to have it together with the other ubuntu docs, but I don't have any problem with what you decide
<mdke> LaserJock: since they are subpages of MOTU, I reckon they should stay on the main wiki
<LaserJock> I guess
<mdke> not convinced?
<highvoltage> mdke: i think let's get all the importand stuff into drupal for now, and move all the edubuntu wiki doc pages along with the ubuntu ones
<highvoltage> mdke: and then later decide if we really need to drop them from the wiki
<LaserJock> well, it is somewhat of border case, there are docs for users wanting to get into development
<LaserJock> so it is hard to figure out if it is documentation or development
<mdke> highvoltage: ok. They need to be tagged with CategoryDocumentation, yeah?
<highvoltage> mdke: ok.
<mdke> LaserJock: well, it's clearly documentation, but it has to be on the main wiki because it's about how to contribute to the commmunity
<mdke> highvoltage: will you take care of it, or delegate or whatever? ;)
<highvoltage> mdke: yes, i will delegate to cbx33
<highvoltage> mdke: and tag any pages i happen to come accross
<mdke> great, thanks
<mdke> maybe we can do the wiki move quite soon
<LaserJock> ah heck, any of the MOTU stuff people would be interested will be in the Packaging Guide
<mdke> LaserJock: i'll ask in -motu
<LaserJock> hehe, good luck with that
<mdke> tricky
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RsyncCdImage
<mdke> Burgundavia: ^?
<Burgundavia> clearly docs
<LaserJock> PbuilderHowto shouldn't go either
<mdke> LaserJock: alright
<highvoltage> mdke: will the new wiki be editible?
<mdke> highvoltage: of course
<mdke> Burgundavia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StagesOfUse ??
<DBO> mdke, is the new wiki going to be at the same adress as the old one?
<mdke> DBO: no
<DBO> =/  argh, thats a lot of links to change in the forums
<mdke> no, links won't be broken
<mdke> we're not that thick :)
<DBO> =P
<mdke> Burgundavia: I think this can be put out of its misery, don't you? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDocbookInterchangeProtocol
<Burgundavia> kill them both
<mdke> ah shit
<mdke> 25 odd forum pages to tag
<highvoltage> mdke: so, we've sorted out the edubuntu doc move thing
<highvoltage> mdke: the wiki pages will move along with CategoryDocumentation
<highvoltage> mdke: and eventually, we'll move it off of there
<highvoltage> mdke: so this will be a bit of the process in the end, but should work out fine.
<mdke> highvoltage: ok
<mdke> Burgundavia: ok, I've checked everything, I think now the only other thing we can do is to tag all the forum/* pages
<highvoltage> Burgundavia, mdke: are you two going to Paris for the dev-summit?
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, no, works conflicts with it
<highvoltage> :/
<mdke> no
<highvoltage> ok well, goodnight guys.
<highvoltage> may the force be with you.
<mdke> man it's like the old days charging through the wiki
<Burgundavia> there is a lot of crap in the wiki
<Burgundavia> mdke, shall I work my way up from Z?
<mdke> Burgundavia: I've got to the end, I think, but another eyeballing wouldn't hurt I guess. The hardest thing is stuff that isn't there, but should be
<Burgundavia> are we moving non-english docs as well?
<Burgundavia> they are traditionally not categorized as catdoc
<mdke> Burgundavia: oh, I've left the ones I saw in there, yeah
<Burgundavia> then we should probably move the rest of the non-english ones as well
<mdke> indeed. There are lots which aren't tagged?
<Burgundavia> yes, my policy has to remove catdoc from non-english docs
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> well ideally of course they'd be on a separate wiki for their own language
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> we are far from ideal
<LaserJock> it'd be awesome if you could import the wiki into Rosetta
<LaserJock> and people could actually translate it
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> I would like to move away from the wiki to something more robust, like docudo
<DBO> docudo?
<Burgundavia> new shiny python doc editor
<DBO> link? =)
* mdke wonders if python would be so famous if it didn't have a cool name
<Burgundavia> http://www.checkandshare.com/blog/?p=42
<DBO> yeah I was just there, it didnt tell me much...
<DBO> i was hoping for a live demo =P
<LaserJock> mdke: cool name?
<mdke> no?
<LaserJock> mdke: I don't think python is particularly cool name
<mdke> LaserJock: oh well, my bad then
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, why not?
<LaserJock> hehe, I just wondered if you do
<LaserJock> I guess names just aren't very important to me
<Burgundavia> I guess you are not a marketing/sales wonk then
<LaserJock> not at all :-)
<LaserJock> I guess python is good because it is easy to remember/spell
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to run. Need to buy 50' of network cable to get this noisy server out of my bedroom
<LaserJock> 50', that's like the length of my house
<Burgundavia> 50' is probably too much, but I it is always good to have 50' on you
<Burgundavia> and I left my last 50' at my last place
<Burgundavia> it had kind of become part of the house
<mdke> ah crap
<mdke> bzip2 in 100% cpu SHOCK
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-21
<Burgundavia> hye mdke, nixternal
<nixternal> hiya Burgundavia
<ubotu> New bug: #115920 in ubuntu-doc "restart and shut-down" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115920
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<ta_bu_shi_da_yu> I was hoping to start helping with some documentation
<ta_bu_shi_da_yu> I'm wondering what's the best way to start?
<willvdl> ta_bu_shi_da_yu, best to take a look at the wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
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<aeiko_> Hello.
<dsas> hi aeiko_
<aeiko_> dsas: How are you? :)
<dsas> aeiko_: A little tired :) How are you?
<aeiko_> dsas: Kinda under the weather :/
<aeiko_> But considering I can log on to IRC at work, I can't complain :)
<aeiko_> I was hoping I'd find more people here in than this :P
<aeiko_> I wanted to contribute to ubuntu and figured this would be a good way
<aeiko_> Since I can't program :/
<dsas> aeiko_: The lack of people probably reflects on the need for more people to contribute :)
<aeiko_> dsas: That's what I thought :P
<dsas> aeiko_: Have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted ?
<ubotu> New bug: #116072 in ubuntu-doc "keyboard preferences help should mention CJK setup" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116072
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-22
<aeiko_> Hello.
<jjesse> hello aeiko_
<j1mc> hi all
<aeiko_> How are you? :)
* j1mc is well.
<jjesse> good and u
<aeiko_> A bit under the weather, but I believe I'll make it.
<j1mc> what all do you each contribute to ubuntu docs?
<jjesse> kubuntu docs and work on the official ubuntu book
<j1mc> jjesse: so you work with nixternal?  :)
<aeiko_> j1mc: Nothing yet, that's what I'm here for, to figure out how I can get more involved.
<jjesse> yes i do
<j1mc> cool.  we are in the same loco.
<j1mc> nix and i.
<nixternal> shh
<nixternal> to many people are saying my name..the feds might be watching
<j1mc> hehe.  hi nixternal
<nixternal> I just seen a black helichopter run across my irssi session
<aeiko_> So how does one exactly, get involved in the world of Ubuntu documentation?
<jjesse> start by reading the current documentation and submitting chnages to the mailing list
<jjesse> as we move closer to gutsy that will probablly be the best
<j1mc> jjesse: are there any major issues that for k/ubuntu docs that didn't get tackled for feisty that are on the plate for gutsy?
<aeiko_> jjesse: Would it be trouble for you to provide links for some stuff to look over to point me in the right direction?
<jjesse> sorry watching season finale of heros
<aeiko_> jjesse: np
<jjesse> aeiko_: the site doc.ubuntu.com has the current documentation in svn
<jjesse> aeiko_: i think there's a page for getting started on the doc team
<aeiko__> jjesse: I'm reviewing it now. Didn't know they used DocBook for documentation.
<jjesse> aeiko__: yup evertyhing is then converted to html
<jjesse> hello Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey jjesse
<jjesse> nixternal: you following the pistons game tonight?
<nixternal> heh, nope ;)
<jjesse> pistons up by 1 tonight
<aeiko_> It's awfully quiet in here :P
<mdke> morning
<nixternal> morning
<Madpilot> morning
<ubotu> New bug: #115895 in ubuntu-docs (main) "broken link in help: Configuring desktop effects" [Low,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115895
<georgia> 'lo
<jjesse> hello Admiral_Chicago
<Admiral_Chicago> hey ther jjesse. looks like my computer isn't crapping out on me again
<jjesse> yay
<jjesse> now get to work :)
<Admiral_Chicago> i am. i just logged in and got hit to do Firefox + KDE bugs.
<jjesse> :)
<Admiral_Chicago> i swear thats the last connection problem..
<somerville32> I am free :)
<nixternal> great, because I would have never paid for you anyways!
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-23
<willvdl> nixternal, hey there
<willvdl> who can delete stuff on help.u.c community wiki pages?
<nixternal> willvdl: I can't
<willvdl> nixternal, I added it on the wikitodo page
<willvdl> where it should go :)
<nixternal> that will work
<nixternal> I used to be able to do whatever on h.u.c but something happened and now I can only edit
<willvdl> yeah deleting rights were removed. probably for good reason :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-24
<MehdiHassanpour> I've changed our loco wiki frontpage to this: http://wiki.ubuntu.ir . I can create an english page also if some of you interested. I think the h.u.c/community can have such structure too. should be more user friendly for newbies...
<bdmurray> Does anybody know if there are stats for wiki.ubuntu.com page views?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PageHits
<Burgundavia> from the beginning of time
<bdmurray> Burgundavia: That's great, thanks.
<Burgundavia> same on the help wiki
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<bdmurray> does the w.u.c support strike-through?
<Burgwork> probably, never tried it
<bdmurray> I can't find anything about it
<Flannel> --(Try This)--
<bdmurray> Okay, I guess I lied I did find that it didn't work out for me in a table cell
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-25
<guglielf> hi, this page is not a valid WikiName, could someone rename it?  --> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/How_to_dual-boot_Ubuntu_and_XP_after_installing_them_separately_on_two_HDs
<Burgwork> you can move it
<guglielf> hmm, nope
<j1mc> hi all
<Admiral_Chicago> you left didn't you :)
<Admiral_Chicago> whats up jim
<j1mc> Admiral_Chicago: i left to come here.  :)
<Admiral_Chicago> ah cool
<j1mc> must stay focused.  :)
<j1mc> although i enjoy the ubu-chicago chats
<Admiral_Chicago> speaking of being focused.../me goes to fill out some papers...
<ubotu> New bug: #116757 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Packaging Guide not clear on "rules" having to be executable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116757
<nixternal> heh,
<nixternal> let me guess, either debuild or dpkg-buildpackage said "no way jose!"
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> nixternal, willvdl - people in the wikiteam should be able to delete/rename pages on the help wiki; but we have to add them manually. Email me your WikiNames and I'll add you as soon as I remember what time of day it is
<Madpilot> @now London
<Madpilot> lagged silly bot
<Madpilot> early there, yes?
<mdke> not really; I'm just losing track of where I am. Busy week
<willvdl> mdke. thanks. it's a friday if that helps
<mdke> it helps a lot :)
<willvdl> for the whole day
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/London: May 25 2007, 08:37:07 - Next meeting: MOTU in 4 hours 22 minutes
<ubotu> New bug: #116782 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Packaging Guide: missing files from source in Feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116782
<ubotu> New bug: #116783 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Packaging Guide: mentions copying rules from the ubuntu source, but fails to compile" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116783
<j1mc> hi all.  is there a doc team meeting planned in the near future?
<j1mc> the meeting page says the next meeting is set for November 11, 2006
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> j1mc: it has been a while since our last meeting
<j1mc> hi nixternal
<nixternal> we pretty much already know what we need to do I guess...however maybe we should setup a meeting to discuss any necessary changes needed/wanted for 7.10
<j1mc> i'm just following you around.  pretty soon i'll be doing kde packaging and building kubuntu from scratch or something.
<nixternal> hahah rock on!
<nixternal> Debian Hacking 101 tomorrow for me ;)
<j1mc> cool.  i bet you're pretty excited.
<nixternal> depends on how you classify excited..it will be cool hanging out with some debian devs though
<j1mc> i guess . . .   just sounds like a step into a whole new world, in a way.  i mean . . .  DEBIAN.  :)  the mother ship.
<nixternal> heh, it has been a long time when I worked with anything Debian
<nixternal> actually, I am doing the debian-kde-extras thing now..I don't think I would mess with documentation on their end, they like to use SGML which isn't fun
<j1mc> nixternal: do you forsee any big changes to the structure of *ubuntu documentation?  in terms of how things are organized?
<nixternal> j1mc: not for a while I would guess. we just did the "big change" with 7.04
<j1mc> got it.
<mdke> nixternal: ok, you're now in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EditorGroup
<nixternal> rock on mdke, thanks!
<mdke> np
<nixternal> so, any new plans for 7.10 on our side?
<nixternal> wi6
<nixternal> that works :)
<mdke> we need to do some serious thinking
<nixternal> well...we have a solid base...just need to add to it if anything, and fix up what needs to be fixed of course
<mdke> I'd like to develop a strategy which is going to get some more people involved; I think there are some small things we can do to improve feedback and contribution but we really need some big things too - such as revamping how we do the help website
<mdke> yes, the system docs are in good enough shape
<nixternal> ya, the help website is definitely in need of some love
<mdke> I'd like to get some momentum behind those two specs
<j1mc> mdke, for what it's worth, Admiral_Chicago and I are going to be revamping the xubuntu documentation, hopefully making it on-par with ubuntu and kubuntu docs.
<j1mc> we have a lot of work to do, but we're getting started now, so . . .
<j1mc> we also have some help from the xubuntu dev team.
<mdke> j1mc: sounds great
<mdke> let us know how we can help
<j1mc> ok.  thanks.  nixternal is also in our loco, so he will be a great resource for us.
<nixternal> only if the money is right of course
<j1mc> mostly, i'll just try to stick around here and also follow the mailing lists and such.
<j1mc> and see how much $$$$$ i can scrounge up for nixternal.
<mdke> I'll chip in a dime
<nixternal> gee, thanks :)
<j1mc> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-26
<Admiral_Chicago> mdke: yes j1mc is correct, we are doing a massive push on the doc work soon
<nixternal> ahh, the good ol' svn is up to its slowness again
<Madpilot> so now is not a good time for me to do the 'svn up' run I've been meaning to do for weeks, eh? :)
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> sure, just do it in the background
<j1mc> jjesse: Admiral_Chicago says hi.
<j1mc> we're at a coffee shop going over xubuntu doc plans...
<jjesse> j1mc: tell him i said back
<jjesse> oh cool
<j1mc> hey there!
<jjesse> j1mc: did we meet in chicago?
<j1mc> ... that was Admiral_Chicago saying hi there.
<j1mc> i didn't meet you in chicago... i couldn't make it out that night.
<jjesse> yeah i know that, is was just wondering if i met you that night
<jjesse> oh i c
<j1mc> can someone post a screenshot of what ubuntu feisty docs look like when you select internet in yelp?
<jjesse> sorry currently in kubuntub
<j1mc> jjesse: thx.  np.  we're here on xubuntu, so...  want to see how ubuntu does it.
<j1mc> jjesse: help.ubuntu.com does the trick.  :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-27
<Admiral_Chicago> too many doc works
<nixternal> you think?
<jjesse> evbening
<nixternal> evbening
<nixternal> ;)
<jjesse> :)
<jjesse> how are things?
<nixternal> I am stuffed, otherwise great
<jjesse> good dinner?
<nixternal> the debian developer I met up with today was one of the first 40 DDs ever from like 1995...OLD SCHOOL
<jjesse> wow super old skool
<nixternal> alright dinner..went to Chevy's for some mexican food
<nixternal> no doubt...he is/was the VP for Bank of America's IT
<jjesse> that's awesome
<jjesse> i love it when you get to meet people like that
<nixternal> ya, I know where to go when I am ready to go back to work :)
<jjesse> awesome
<nixternal> hey, KDE-Apps has this app called KatchTV, it is the Democracy Player for KDE...good stuff if you like that kind of stuff
<nixternal> I like watching some of the tech video podcasts
<jjesse> cool
<jjesse> i'll look for it
<jjesse> hmm not in the ubuntu repository
<nixternal> nope
<jjesse> so it looks like you have something new to package :)
<nixternal> hehe, I just might once she finishes it..I told her to send me the final source unbuilt
<jjesse> is "she" the person from bank of america?
<nixternal> no, she is the programmer of KatchTV...not a debian dev :)
<jjesse> oh
<jjesse> sorry trying tgo get vnc working correctly on my new xubuntu box
<nixternal> xubuntu ey
<jjesse> ey?
<nixternal> hiya mpt
<nixternal> ya, that is my uper talk
<jjesse> oh
<nixternal> wo0t...the girl who does GeekBrief just pimped Ubuntu & Dell
<jjesse> yay
<mpt> hello hello
<nixternal> how goes it sir?
<mdke_> morning all
<nixternal> mornin' mdke_
<nixternal> err, hahaha would be late noon now :)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> it seems all of the ubuntu-doc mod emails were marked as spam by gmail
<Admiral_Chicago> hey there jjesse
<jjesse> hello Admiral_Chicago
<ryanakca> *meeps*... I firefox crashed on me and I lost my KMail + gpg-agent howto
<ryanakca> does anybody with 'gobby' installed feel like "mentoring" me in rewriting my KMail + gpg-agent article?
<ubotu> New bug: #117249 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Wrong menu entry mentioned in kubuntu-docs" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117249
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-19
<Flannel> Anyone know why this change was made? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardyUpgrades?action=diff&rev2=33&rev1=32
<Flannel> Since, we don't advocate the root user, and I'm wondering if someone got overzealous of if theres an actual reason for it.
<burundi> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-20
<cody-somerville> jono, Would you have time this evening to discuss Xubuntu?
<jono> cody-somerville: not sure about this evening, but lets sit down tomorrow, maybe for lunch?
<cody-somerville> Sounds good.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-22
<nevermind> ciao raga
<nevermind> c'Ã¨ qualcuno ?
<nevermind> hello guys
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<oaxacamatt1> greetings all, I would like to find out how I can help with docs for Ubuntu. Is this the right place?
<oaxacamatt1> hello all
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-23
<Danix803> Hello
<Danix803> World
<Danix803> I have a question about the Chrome9 drivers???
<Danix803> The OpenChrome page lists P4VM800 but does not list P4VM900... but the for more information link lists P4VM900...
<Danix803> My question is: Does the OpenChrome driver work with the P4VM900 MB???
<Danix803> Also: Is there a way to undo what the driver does? I've reloaded the OS for this computer 4 times and it getting old very fast... I've tried copying and renaming x's conf file but that doesn't seem to work once I've installed any of these Chrome drivers
<Danix803> Hello Cody-somerville
<mcgrewd> Hello World
<jjesse> hello
<mcgrewd> RU part of the OpenChrome team???
<mcgrewd> RU part of the OpenChrome team???
<mcgrewd> Thanks jjesse... I didn't think that anyone could see my messages
<mcgrewd> There is a list of names in the left panel... is that a list of people in this channel???
<mcgrewd> do I have to type 'msg #ubuntu-doc my text, everytime I want people to see what I'm typing???
<jjesse> yes the list on the left is everyone in the channel
<jjesse> no you don't have to type msg # before typing
<jjesse> what client are you using?
<mcgrewd> I was just wondering... KSirc
<danix803> Hello
<danix803> I'm still trying to get in touch with the OpenChrome team
<danix803> Okay
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-24
<leifdk1978> hey guys got some quistions
<l3on> mdke: are you there?
<mdke> l3on: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-25
<l3on> mdke: are you there ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-18
<jjesse> to fix a bug automatically what is the syntax in the bzr commit
<jjesse> is it fixes bug # or what ?
<jpds> bzr commit --fixes lp:NNNNN
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: any low hanging fruit not being worked on?
<mdke> jjesse: as with what jpds said except it's --fixes=lp:NNNN
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: I'm not sure, to be honest. The best I can suggest is to scour the bug reports :)
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: Ah I looked but didnt find any that arent being looked at. So I just thought id ask
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: there might be some more substantial things to get your teeth into; I know that we need better bluetooth documentation, if you happen to be a bluetooth guru :) alternatively perhaps you could help out with Kelvin's newtoubuntu plans
 * bencrisford__ would like some low hanging fruit too mdke :)
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: the newtoubuntu stuff sounds right up my alley
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Is there anything I can help you with the newtoubuntu docs?
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: if he isn't around on irc, maybe send an email
<Shane_Fagan> Ah whats the address?
<KelvinGardiner> I'm here
<Shane_Fagan> Oh good
<bencrisford__> the mailing list is at ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<bencrisford__> but i see you dont need it now :)
<KelvinGardiner> Shane_Fagan: I've put a draft spec at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KelvinGardiner/NewToUbuntuDocs (I was just getting the address)
<bencrisford__> KelvinGardiner: I'll help out too if you like
<KelvinGardiner> Have a look a let me know what you would like to do.
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Thanks ill have a look
<KelvinGardiner> bencrisford__: cool
<bencrisford__> so its a section of the system docs for karmic
<bencrisford__> ?
<Shane_Fagan> bencrisford__:  Yes
<KelvinGardiner> bencrisford__: Yes. Its all the docs for new users. Some other section of the system docs may need expanding as well.
<bencrisford__> ah, cool
<bencrisford__> KelvinGardiner: How does a section about emulation software sound to you?
<bencrisford__> because I could do that
<KelvinGardiner> One thing I'd like to sort out is the structure of the moving from windows / os x to Ubuntu pages. I think a FAQ will be best.
<KelvinGardiner> bencrisford__: wine?
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: I could do 6.1 Commons Applications+
<bencrisford__> KelvinGardiner: For using windows applications in ubuntu
<Shane_Fagan> bencrisford__: Thats wine
<bencrisford__> i know
<bencrisford__> thats what im explaining :)
<bencrisford__> lol, im confused :P
<KelvinGardiner> Shane_Fagan: ok. Can you add yourself on the wiki page.
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Sure will do
<bencrisford__> KelvinGardiner: Want me to have a look at the moving from windows sections?
<KelvinGardiner> bencrisford__: A short page on wine would be good.
<bencrisford__> i could put about wine in there
<bencrisford__> as a sub-section
<KelvinGardiner> bencrisford__: I'd like to get a list of issues for the moving from windows pages (looking a the forum etc) before starting it. Put if you have any ideas add them to the wiki.
<bencrisford__> ok
<mdke> I think wine is likely to be for more advanced users
<KelvinGardiner> bencrisford__: I've had a quick chat with the beginners team about the winodws page and want to talk to them again.
<mdke> it's not so much for people who are new to Ubuntu
<bencrisford__> ok
<bencrisford__> well if there is any section you want me to help with, im always on here
<KelvinGardiner> bencrisford__: ok, keep an eye on the mailing list. I'll be sending updates to it.
<bencrisford__> olk
<bencrisford__> ok*
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: I may need some help with the mac OS equivalents of the programs
<KelvinGardiner> Shane_Fagan: ok, I have a macbook, but I've not used os x for some time. I can boot it and check the names of the apps.
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Cool
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Ill make a table with columns for ubuntu windows and mac. Ill list the programs and their equivalents on each platform. I have one question though. Should I include Banshee in the list or should I just mention the default programs?
<KelvinGardiner> Shane_Fagan: I think it best just include default apps. But, I think there is session on including Banshee as the default music player at the Karmic UDS.
<Shane_Fagan> Id be a +1 for that but I cant go :(
<Shane_Fagan> Ok its in progress I might have some of it done by tomorrow
<KelvinGardiner> Shane_Fagan:  Are you writing it in docbook? If so I've set up a bzr branch on lp you can push to.
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Yep, ill research it first and then write it up in docbook. Whats the lp branch ?
<KelvinGardiner> Shane_Fagan: https://code.launchpad.net/~kelvingardiner/+junk/newtoubuntu
<KelvinGardiner> Shane_Fagan: I've not hosted a branch on lp before. I think I have to approve the push. If it doesn't work let me know.
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Ok ill get back to you when I have something
<KelvinGardiner> ok, thanks for helping out.
<mdke> KelvinGardiner: if the branch is owned by you, which it is in that case, then only you can push to it
<KelvinGardiner> mdke: Can I not subscribe someone else to it?
<Shane_Fagan> KelvinGardiner: Even if you subscribe to it you cant upload to it unless you own it
<mdke> KelvinGardiner: in launchpad subscribe just means that they get emails with the changes that are made, not a right to push to it
<mdke> KelvinGardiner: you could change the ownership of it to ~ubuntu-doc, but see my email of today about that
<KelvinGardiner> mdke: What about if I get patches and apply them to my branch. Is this a better solution?
<Shane_Fagan> That would work
<mdke> KelvinGardiner: that would probably work better because then you can review the patches, and you will be a kind of gatekeeper for contributions to the work
<mdke> then, all we need to do is to review the quality of the end product
<KelvinGardiner> mdke: ok, sounds sensible, thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-20
<techman2> hi all
<techman2> I was wondering if someone would have a sec to double check my wiki edits?
<rww> Hello! I just wrote a patch to fix bug 315650 and attached it. 1) Can someone check and see if I did things right? 2) Do I need to do anything else after attaching patches to get them applied?
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 315650 in xubuntu-docs "xubuntu-docs, add application wrong location for menuitem" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/315650
<mdke> rww: patch looks good, thanks. The only thing to do is to tag the bug with "patch" after attaching, that way someone should look at it shortly, I hope
<mdke> rww: I've added the tag
<rww> mdke: Thanks :)
<mdke> rww: thanks for the patch :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-22
<technomensch> anyone awake in here?
<nixternal> i am
<j1mc> nixternal: he showed up and left in the next minute. :)  why do people do that?
<nixternal> because they can?
<j1mc> they can?
<j1mc> really?
<j1mc> they should implement a feature that doesn't let you leave a channel until you've been in there for at least 5 minutes
<j1mc> i'm sure MS could come up with something like this
<nixternal> hehe
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , maybe it's time to create a new forum thread to replace http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81999
<Rocket2DMn> assuming you have finished making changes to the team structure
<Rocket2DMn> I know I keep reminding you about it.  If it helps, we can write a bug for the task and assign it to you
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: heh, you're quite right to keep reminding me. I'll see if I can do it this weekend, finally :)
<Rocket2DMn> Cool
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-23
<jmburgess> so I have been using ubuntu forever, and I want to start helping out with documentation, i have made a few wiki edits, but what do you think is the best way to help out the wiki?
<Flannel> edit it :)
<Chr|s> what if someone edits it and they don't know what they are doing and erases everythign?
<j1mc> Chr|s: we can revert changes if someone makes a mistake
<j1mc> actually, anyone can revert changes
<Chr|s> I see, well thats always good
<j1mc> yeah :)
<zoglesby> hello, I have recently moved myself to ubuntu from fedora and would like to help with the docs team (I was a docs team member for fedora and have some experince with docbook etc)
<j1mc> hi zoglesby
<j1mc> have you had a look at the wiki?
<j1mc> zoglesby: normally, what happens for "new" contributors, is that they submit a few patches before they are given commit access to the repository.  have you been able to grab the doc-branch from launchpad?
<j1mc> matthew east (mdke) is the guy who is currently heading up the project.
<j1mc> i'd probably also recommend sending a note to the ML, introducing yourself, if you haven't already
<zoglesby> j1mc: I have not pulled anything yet I am reading stuff on the wiki right now looking at what the same and whats diffrent
<j1mc> zoglesby: sounds good. :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-24
<jmburgess> hey guys the find wiki page says it needs cleanup and expansion, it seems fine to me, should I remove the tags?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-25
<jo-erlend> is it possible to make changes to help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide still, or is that too frozen?
<mattgriffin> brb
<mattgriffin> back
<Kangarooo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash what in there means ~i in aptitude search '~i' | fgrep -e '-dbg' ? i run this command and it doesnt give anything
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-26
<czajkowski> http://elkbuntu.net/ubuntuwomen/ vote  for the world play day competition
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-28
<gv_> uptime
<nils__> hello, who deals with the xorg.conf manpage?
<nils__> because there's a formatting error with the Option "PreferredMode" section
<nils__> it looks like it's part of the Option "Primary" section
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-30
<mdke> jo-erlend: it's not impossible, if there are serious bugs then we can consider fixing them in Lucid
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-23
<j1mc> jbicha: hey
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-24
<mdke> morning all
<j1mc_away> hey mdke
<j1mc> mdke: you off to work yet?
<vtanthropologist> are you online yet, phil?
<vtanthropologist> hi philbull
<philbull> hi
<vtanthropologist> shall we move to a different room?
<vtanthropologist> I seem to have lost the panel on the right that allows me to see who's online and invite them to a private chat
<philbull> If you're in Empathy, there should be a little grip on the right that you can drag to the left
<philbull> next to the scroll bar
<vtanthropologist> lol.  yep.  it was there, but not very visible
<philbull> yeah, it's a bug
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-25
<mdke> hey dpm
<dpm> heya mdke, good morning
<mdke> morning :)
<CarlFK> new use of for: "We currently build four sets of mainline kernels, two sets from Linus' tree, two sets from DRM-development repositories, and one from a combined v2.6.32.x/v2.6.33.y stable tree"
<CarlFK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/MainlineBuilds
<CarlFK> gah.  four
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-26
<j1mc_away> CarlFK: yeah, just saying 'four' would make sense to me, too. (if that's what you're suggesting...)
<mdke> j1mc: 20:00 UTC on Sunday?
<j1mc> mdke: how did you guess?
<j1mc> i was just getting ready to send out an email and put stuff up on the wiki
<mdke> ah, cool
 * mdke clicks "Discard"
<j1mc> yeah, that time seemed to work best for most of the 'usual suspects'
<mdke> 7/8 on the poll; and it looks like the 1/8 is a duplicate
<j1mc> ah, nice
<j1mc> i emailed jeremy bicha to see if that time worked for him, but figured that it would be better to get the time on ppl's calendars rather than wait much longer.
<j1mc> i hope he can make it
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> he has quite odd sleeping patterns iirc
<mdke> ;)
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> to change the subject slightly
<mdke> are there any packagers interested in documentation that you know of?
<mdke> I used to rely on LaserJock for packaging help but he isn't active anymore
<j1mc> yeah... i am interested in learning it. i know of some people in my loco team who are good with packaging, but they only have a passing interest in docs.
<j1mc> even nixternal (rich johnson) isn't around much these days.
<mdke> I haven't had any response to my call for help, and it is blocking a first upload to oneiric of ubuntu-docs
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-May/033227.html
<mdke> if you have any ideas, let me know!
<j1mc> i could bug micah gersten (micahg) about it. he does a lot of mozilla packaging.
<j1mc> he's from chicago, too.
<mdke> if he is willing, that would be awesome. Actually he was asking me last release about the homepage for another browser
<j1mc> ah, ok. i just send him a note on irc, so we'll see what he says. if he can't help, i asked if he could point me to someone who could help
<mdke> thanks dude
<mdke> I had a look through your draft strategy document, it looks pretty solid
<mdke> thanks for working on that
<j1mc> ah, cool. thanks.
<j1mc> more still to do on it.
<mdke> i guess we can chat through it at the meeting
<j1mc> even if nobody pushed to it, i wanted it at least to be out in the open. yep, i'm sure we can talk more about it at the meeting.
<mdke> take it section by section
<mdke> but I didn't really have any immediate comments as I was skimming it
<j1mc> you mean you have better things to do???  ;)
<mdke> no, honestly I thought it was good and couldn't really improve on it
<j1mc> coolness
<mdke> man we have a lot of wiki pages
<mdke> we need to try and cut the volume of material down I think
<mdke> (in the team pages)
<MrChrisDruif> mdke; Really? I've only seen a few
<MrChrisDruif> Cut volume down in team pages? What do you mean by that?
<j1mc> mdke: yeah... there's a lot of cruft
<mdke> MrChrisDruif: I mean that we have too many wiki pages for our team
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam ... look at the bottom of the page
<j1mc> look at all of the subpages
<mdke> we have like 70 pages
<MrChrisDruif> Wow..
<MrChrisDruif> Btw ;) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam?action=LocalSiteMap
<MrChrisDruif> And I'm not sure it makes a good overview <_<"
<j1mc> thanks, MrChrisDruif ... that's helpful
<mdke> that doesn't seem to show them all though, there are way more
<MrChrisDruif> Well...not really actually...second time I've noticed the localsitemap function isn't functioning properly
<mdke> see the right hand column on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/X
 * mdke prunes
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> j1mc: how did the word "guide" get put into the title of the new gnome-help, do you know? It seems a bit out of place
 * j1mc looks quizzically (sp?) ... i'm not sure what you mean.
<mdke> it's called "Gnome Desktop Guide" right
<mdke> or "Ubuntu Desktop Guide" in ours
<mdke> but it isn't a guide at all, "guide" seems to imply one long linear document
<mdke> I just wondered if it was discussed
<j1mc> good point
<j1mc> i think it was just how we referred to it
<mdke> I think it was called that before as well, maybe it got carried over
<mdke> how about we rename ours to "Ubuntu Help" in the next release?
<j1mc> something like that would be ok, yeah. I still like how 'guide' sounds, but you're right in that it's not linear.
<j1mc> to me, Ubuntu Help is too brief
<j1mc> 'ubuntu help compendium' :)
<MrChrisDruif> Compendium? "This non-native user goes to find what it means :P"
<mdke> Ubuntu Desktop Help
<MrChrisDruif> Alright...seems pretty to be spot on actually
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: i was joking about compendium.  :) it is accurate, but too serious, me thinks.  :)
 * MrChrisDruif learns more works daily
<MrChrisDruif> words*
<j1mc> :)
<MrChrisDruif> Well, we might want to start to show a little more "professionalism" towards new users...I don't know..
<j1mc> mdke: Ubuntu Help might be ok. We'll eventually want to have a different set of help on the web, too, so... using the word desktop might be confusing in that context. ?? it's up for discussion, anyway.
<j1mc> calling it desktop help might be good, though... we could have separate 'ubuntu server help'
<j1mc> nhandler: howdy
<mdke> it works for me
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, but you might want to run certain "server" apps on your "desktop"
<mdke> see if it works for upstream
<MrChrisDruif> Where would you put those, if you don't want to duplicate data?
<mdke> in the server help
<MrChrisDruif> Or would you refer to the server help?
<nhandler> Hi j1mc
<mdke> ok, I'm signing off, catch you all soon
<j1mc> g'nite mdke
<MrChrisDruif> Later mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-27
<j1mc> cody-somerville: ping
<cody-somerville> j1mc, pong
<j1mc> hey cody - how's it going?
<j1mc> you probably aren't the right person for this, but i was hoping that you could point me in the right direction.
<j1mc> who would be a good person to talk to about oem documentation needs?
<j1mc> oems are a downstream for ubuntu docs (or, at least they have the potential to be) and so i want to have someone take a peek at part of the docs team strategy document
<j1mc> it won't be much work
<j1mc> cody-somerville: can you recommend anyone?
<cody-somerville> j1mc, One moment.
<j1mc> sure thing
<cody-somerville> j1mc, If you can e-mail your request, I can forward it to a few different people and mailing lists.
<j1mc> sure - i'll wait until i have the document fully drafted. i should have something ready in a few days.
<j1mc> thanks, cody.
<j1mc> cody-somerville: btw, was good seeing you at uds, even if we didn't get to talk much. i hope things are going well.
<cody-somerville> j1mc, ditto! :) Was very excited to see you there.
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> j1mc: Kyle, no?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-28
<mdke> I thought he did that sort of thing
<mdke> anyway, bed
<MrChrisDruif> mdke; +1 on that
 * cody-somerville was thinking Kyle as well.
<cody-somerville> but was going to get senior OEM management to review it as well
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-29
<MrChrisDruif> Isn't the meeting on the Fridge?
<MrChrisDruif> Anyone?
<MrChrisDruif> Meeting is tonight right?
 * issyl0 goes to eat, but hopes to be back for at least some of tonight's meeting.  :-)
<j1mc> issyl0: cool - hope to see you soon
<issyl0> j1mc: Yes, I hope to be able to get more involved!
<issyl0> (I said that before, I know.)
<issyl0> Anyway, bye!
<j1mc> sounds good - bye!
<j1mc> meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in a few minutes
<mdke> j1mc: belated apologies, family emergency means I'll have to miss the meeting; will catch up during the week
<j1mc> mdke: sorry to hear you have to miss it
<j1mc> will talk to you soon
<j1mc> hope everything is ok!
<mdke> j1mc: thanks, it should be fine
<issyl0> 63
<Captainkrtek> back
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: we didn't cover too much else.
<Captainkrtek> k
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha ka po'e apau
<MrChrisDruif> How did the meeting go?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-22
<zikalify> hi, where should I report this? On step three the link is dead, leads to page not found http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-24
<bdmurray> what is the right syntax for a moinmoin redirect?  I mean for the url you are redirecting to
<mhall119> bkerensa: do you have the ability to set the series goal on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-q-docteam to ubuntu-quantal?
<bkerensa> mhall119: I should
<bkerensa> mhall119: done :)
<mhall119> thanks
<bkerensa> mhall119: btw I assume your still catching up on things but ping me when you do get the instance approved (no rush though)
<mhall119> bkerensa: will do
<mhall119> First I need to see if it'll even run on precise, after upgrading my local instance of SUMO stopped working
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-26
<derek_> hi, some images on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FoldingAtHome/FahMon has dead links
<derek_> is this the right place to inform?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-20
<kotux> Hello
<melodie> hi
<bogstad> I've been looking into the docs for Ubuntu 12.04 and there doesn't seem to be a standard way to install local copies of either the installation manual or the server guide.  I could use wget to snarf the html/pdf files, but that doesn't seem like the right thing to do.   Is there a package that I can install which will install local copies of that documentation?
<melodie> bogstad have you looked in the "books" section of the software center ? I'm not sure but perhaps could you find something there, or in a "doc" section...
<melodie> or just do a "apt-cache search doc"... not sure which way is the best, it's just ideas, apt-file could be helpful too perhaps
<bogstad> Not yet.  I've been using synaptic rather then the software center.
<bogstad> It looks like the installation guides (per architecture) is available in the software center (as well as synaptic).   I guess I didn't look hard enough.   Still no sign of the server guide though.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-21
<kotux> Hello, is anyone planning to attend open week tomorrow?
<melodie> hello
<kotux> hi melodie
<melodie> hi kotux what's up ?
<kotux> I'm fine; I'm attending Open Week right now on #ubuntu-classroom. I'm listening to the Ubuntu Quality session.
<kotux> How about you?
<melodie> well several things
<melodie> we opened a chan for learning online matter #wonderstudy, have a related page at github
<melodie> what does Ubuntu Quality do exactly ?
<melodie> I should send a mail to the Ubuntu dev team about jobsadmin programs not working nicely, and I feel lazy about doing it, so I am delaying
<kotux> awesome, melodie , I like your vision
<melodie> how is that? :D
<melodie> I mean about which part of what I said?
<kotux> As a DIY student, the phrase "imagine study, taking advantage of free content" was the perfect pitch.
<kotux> For what platforms do you intend to develop for?
<kotux> melodie, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam; Ubuntu Quality is all about testing.
<melodie> kotux I don't understand your question.
<melodie> kotux ok
<melodie> ok about testing
<kotux> Platforms (Android, Linux, web?)
<melodie> kotux if interested you can join #wonderstudy
<kotux> sure
<melodie> why do you think I would want to develop anything?
<kotux> hehe, just curious. :)
<melodie> I do remixes of Ubuntu with Openbox in it
<melodie> a special way of combining small programs and configuration files which makes it easy for anyone to use it: old people, children, end users, and more advance people too
<melodie> I started following the courses of cs50 from edx.org
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-24
<Guest39369> Anyone here familiar with the Ubuntu community wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-19
<Megabyte> ki7mt, excuse me, ki7mt. Are you part of the English doc team?
<ki7mt> My primary language is English, yes.
<Megabyte> ki7mt, have you ever translated Ubuntu docs to another language?
<ki7mt> No
<Megabyte> ki7mt, do you think people use their mobile devices a lot to read documentation?
<ki7mt> I have no idea, I know I dont.
<Megabyte> ki7mt, in your opinion, what do you trust most? Books or electronic documentation?
<ki7mt> I prefer books for programing languages, and tend to use on-line documentation when I want the latest updates on something, or man pages when I'm using the command line.
<Megabyte> ki7mt, it makes sense. programming languages are bit more "static"
#ubuntu-doc 2015-05-21
<ahoneybun> can I get that link to the github page with the Server Docs in RST>
<pleia2> ahoneybun: https://github.com/petermatulis/serverguide
<ahoneybun> thanks pleia2
<pleia2> it's a year old, so lots of bitrot
<ahoneybun> pleia2: link back for you https://github.com/ahoneybun/kubuntu-manual
<pleia2> ahoneybun: also converting to rst?
<ahoneybun> yep
<ahoneybun> going to get a talk about my ideas for docs in general
<ahoneybun> they align with pmatulis and you
<ahoneybun> pleia2: I'm guessing the current guide is on LP?
<pleia2> I dunno about me, while I do agree that consistent tooling is valuable, I'm not the one doing the doc work so I can't really speak for the teams using mallard, docbook, etc
<ahoneybun> Yea I know
<ahoneybun> just getting the ball going (trying anyway)
<ahoneybun> I'm a fan of the "if it works" rule but it could always be better for everyone
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> ahoneybun: server guide in launchpad: https://launchpad.net/serverguide
<ahoneybun> opps yea he gave a link on the github page that I should have saw, sorry pleia2
<ahoneybun> thank you
 * ahoneybun should read the README's more
<pleia2> aha :)
<pleia2> launchpad has experimental git support now, so it may be valuable to bring it back in if git is a preferred tool
<pleia2> but I think github was just used as a proof of concept
<ahoneybun> yes it was for me anyway
<ahoneybun> plus I don't have my keys setup for LP atm
<pmatulis> hey ahoneybun
<ahoneybun> hey pmatulis
<pmatulis> put your ideas down on our next team meeting's agenda if you will be there to speak about them
<pmatulis> i need to update it (clear out old stuff), but here it is
<pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: I do have a slideshow if you would like to look at that
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: would it be useful for those attending the meeting to see it? if so, fill in the agenda and send a msg to ubuntu-doc mailing list asking people to look at it before the meeting
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: just saying it is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6zAAODZFwQ2SGJCQ1YxRE1IaUU/view?usp=sharing
<ahoneybun> I'll be using it for a talk at SELF
<pmatulis> what is SELF?
<ahoneybun> South East Linux Fest
<ahoneybun> Ubuntu will have UbuCon
<ahoneybun> one day event
<ahoneybun> at the conf
<ahoneybun> fest
<pmatulis> ok
<pleia2> ahoneybun: still, please do add it as a discussion item :) presenting it at a conference is not so useful when you haven't formally presented it to the actual teams involved
<ahoneybun> should I wait till you clean up that page first?
<ahoneybun> the fest is on June 11-13 so we have time
<ahoneybun> next meeting is June 1
<ahoneybun> 2
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: is https://userbase.kde.org/Kubuntu the official docs for Kubuntu?
<ahoneybun> yea
<pmatulis> interesting
<ahoneybun> it is the same content that is in kubuntu-docs package
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: anyway, like i mentioned to you before, i raised in the past the idea of migrating to markdown for the serverguide but there was no help offered. also, the usual reaction is "what good will this bring? is it worth the trouble?" so you might want to think about it
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/tutorials/using_bazaar_with_launchpad.html they are using Sphinx lol
<ahoneybun> I have some benefits on my slides I can bring over
<pmatulis> specifically i was gunning for
<pmatulis> https://help.github.com/articles/github-flavored-markdown/
<pmatulis> b/c i am involved in other projects using it
<pmatulis> would like to hear about why you chose the markdown you did, among all the alternative
<pmatulis> s
<ahoneybun> it has some really nice addons
<ahoneybun> but we would prefer LP no?
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: Sphinx support markdown but I just liked RST
<pmatulis> ok, i get that :)
<pmatulis> how many people are helping with this kubuntu manual?
<ahoneybun> tbh I'm the main one
<pmatulis> wow ok
<ahoneybun> someothers have helped
<ahoneybun> but I have np being the only one
<ahoneybun> just need others to brainstorm
<pleia2> hopefully simplifying the format will help gain contributors
<pmatulis> so same problem over here then, lack of people-power
<ahoneybun> yes that is main goal for me
<ahoneybun> other then having the docs/manual being easy to access and in many formats
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: I'm up for helping you if I can
<pleia2> formats aren't an issue for ubuntu and xubuntu since the current docs formats support output to lots of things
 * ahoneybun tries to upload the manual to LP
<ahoneybun> pandoc supports to A LOT
<pmatulis> there are people who disagree that the format is a detriment to participation
<ahoneybun> Sphinx has a few as well
<ahoneybun> having it somewhere easy to find is key I think
<ahoneybun> and get
<pleia2> pmatulis: indeed, barrier to entry isn't everything, could just be standard lack of volunteers :\
<ahoneybun> I do not work on the Ubuntu Manual as I hate the way it is layed out
<ahoneybun> also LaTeX makes my head hurt
<pleia2> they seem to really love it
<ahoneybun> LaTeX?
<pleia2> I have conference things to run off to, have a nice evening :)
<pleia2> yeah
<ahoneybun> it is ugly as sin
<ahoneybun> to me anyway
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: even if they stick with LaTeX you have shown that pandoc can convert very well
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: i think i've given you the context around here. please do be prepared to discuss. and a msg to the m/l will be a good idea telling people about your initiative. the docs project is fairly sleepy and sometimes *everyone* forgets to come to the meeting
 * ahoneybun throws a stick at LP
<ahoneybun> I'm off for the night
<ahoneybun> thanks pmatulis and pleia2
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: welcome
<evertheylen> Hi guys, I found an error in a page on the wiki I cannot edit.
<evertheylen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/lighttpd
<evertheylen> ` The root of the web server is at "/var/www/" ` --> should be "/var/www/html"
 * ahoneybun looks
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-doc to: Ubuntu Documentation Team - home: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc | next meeting: June 2, 2015 @ 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<ahoneybun> foixed
<ahoneybun> *fixed
#ubuntu-doc 2016-05-24
<ducasse> can someone add a small note to the top of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Reference/ZFS that zfs is only supported for data storage, not /, as it comes up in #ubuntu now and then? the page says it's immutable, so i guess i can't do it myself.
<knome> ducasse, done
<ducasse> thanks :)
<knome> np
<ducasse> i've been spending time setting up my yubikey lately, and had to piece together info from all over the web. would anyone find a yubikey wiki page helpful? if so, i'd be happy to try writing one.
<knome> i'd say everything can be helpful for somebody :)
<ducasse> ok, i'll read up on the wiki editing guidelines and give it a go :)
<knome> ducasse, mostly: "use common sense" :)
<knome> but yeah, there are some structural etc. things that are good to read through i guess
<ducasse> sounds reasonable :) shouldn't be impossible to get through.
<ducasse> i'm not a great coder, so i was thinking the wiki might be something i could help out with, and using the yubikey with ubuntu is something i know pretty well by know.
