#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-24
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: is there anything about testing for accessibility aimed at end users themselves? there was an exchange on the gnome-a11y list this weekend that suggested to me that maybe that's one of the things we need to have (not sure what would go in it, but it seems like people may  not know how to test as an end user)
<charlie-tca> I don't believe there is anything aimed at end user testing, simply because most of the fixes have to be done in the development version
<Pendulum> *nods*
<charlie-tca> If the end user is not using the latest development version, the test is not valid
<Pendulum> right
<Pendulum> but I'm thinking if we can figure out how they can use the development version to test...
<charlie-tca> but then they are no longer normal users, they become a tester
<Pendulum> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2011-January/msg00071.html is where I'm wondering if there's something we can do to make it clearer how to do testing
<charlie-tca> anyone can grab the daily desktop cd and try to do an install with orca
<Pendulum> I wonder if this is one of the things that jono's "use it on a USB stick" would help
<charlie-tca> We can't really expect normal users to do much testing, because it does mean running the development version and taking a chance on losing everything at a critical time
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> that's kinda what I figured
<Pendulum> I'm just trying to figure out answers to the "Ubuntu doesn't test a11y" that shows up on other lists
<charlie-tca> I don't if a USB test will work with orca. I have no system capable of that
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> I'll poke AlanBell about it tomorrow
<charlie-tca> the answer is the same answer we give every other "does not test enough" nonsense. It is, when we have testers willing. 
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> I think at this point I'm more annoyed that it gets said about us, but not to us
<charlie-tca> The "doesn't test" is not limited to anything. 
<charlie-tca> It gets said about Xubuntu and Ubuntu too, but never up front
<charlie-tca> That's about the only time I answer a blog or review, too.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-25
<Pendulum> I wonder if we could do a "buddy testing" sort of thing. Where people who would like to test, but can't break their systems due to a11y reasons, get a friend or work with a general tester one-on-one to test a11y
<Pendulum> maybe having some people willing to do the guiding from the a11y side might get people over the "I don't understand a11y" hump more than test cases alone
<charlie-tca> That might work. It's a good idea
<charlie-tca> dasher is not working good either in natty
<Pendulum> I expect dasher to be a mess in Unity
<charlie-tca> well, that seems about right so far. I tried it again today
<Pendulum> I'm still trying to figure out how to get my hands on a machine that I can break
<charlie-tca> It works fine, as long as you don't expect it to print any letters out
<charlie-tca> heh, we just keep trying
<Pendulum> does it work in non-direct mode?
<Pendulum> (don't know if you've tried both)
<charlie-tca> not at all today
<charlie-tca> I got the letters to zoom, though
<charlie-tca> direct and non-direct both failed
<Pendulum> *nods*
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yeah but Debian's testing doesn't really appear to be that visible to me, or I am just not looking harde enough.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I did wonder about that.
<Pendulum> I'm starting a thread on gnome-a11y to ask what other distros do because I'm curious since they claim to test
<TheMuso> Ok.
<Pendulum> (I'm copying it to ubuntu-accessibility to see if anyone of the lurkers there have ideas)
<TheMuso> ok
<mhall119> Pendulum: a better tweet might be "dows anybody know of a distro that gets a11y tested fully?"
<TheMuso> Its worth mentioning that someone tried to subscribe to ubuntu-accessibility by emailing subscribe in the subject to the list address. I sent them a mail to put them in the right direction.
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> btw, am I the only person who always wants to pronounce a11y as ally?
<MichelleQ> erm, nope, I do
<TheMuso> Personally I'd rather use accessibility everywhere, but even I have started using a11y when writing, something I am not proud of. :p
<Pendulum> heh
<TheMuso> Y say accessibility when talking
<TheMuso> s/Y/I/
<Pendulum> I use a11y more when typing because of my hands hurting
<TheMuso> Understandable.
 * charlie-tca thought he was the only one disliking a11y in place of accessibility
<Pendulum> I also like it on twitter, but that's just because 140 characters is often fewer than I need ;)
<charlie-tca> yup
<maco> Pendulum: i read it as "ally" frequently but have been known to say eh eleven why out loud
<Pendulum> maco: congrats on job!
<maco> Pendulum: thanks!
<charlie-tca> I am sorry, Pendulum. This does not seem to be one of my positive days
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: it's okay :)
<fregl> hi, does anyone here have at-spi2 running?
<hajour> hai fregl :)
<hajour> i am not a programmer so i don't no what that is but maybe AlanBell  or cprofitt  knows it
<hajour> iff i pinged the wrong persons then very sorry for that :)
<Pendulum> fregl: TheMuso might have at-spi2 running, but he's asleep right now. API might also have it (dunno if he's still working, though, either)
<fregl> yep, I'm currentyl trying to get something to work on natty
<Pendulum> hahaha
<fregl> but I was hoping to start from a "works a bit" base
<Pendulum> there is no a11y on Natty yet
<Pendulum> TheMuso & co. are in the process of getting it written and working now
<Pendulum> (essentially the framework isn't there yet)
<fregl> Pendulum: how so? at least at-spi1 should work I thought?
<Pendulum> fregl: Unity is not Gnome based and in the past the a11y framework was set-up on the Gnome level of things so was there for Ubuntu
<API> fregl, well, yes I have at-spi2 running
<API> anyway, AFAIK, natty will still use at-spi
<Pendulum> so they're having to write the framework for apt-spi and at-spi2 to talk to within Natty
<fregl> API: ok, that is what I was hoping
<fregl> API: anything special for at-spi2? or do I just use system packages?
<fregl> also accerciser keeps crashing
<Pendulum> API: feel free to correct me on if I'm wrong with what I'm saying about the framework and the lack of a11y in Natty
<fregl> uhhh, I just had orca repeating "preferences" in an endless loop :D almost annoying...
<fregl> what is the best way to debug apps/d-bus? I'm currently looking at d-feet, but that is not really the right tool
<API> fregl, any error message on accerciser?
<API> fregl, ah ok, I already had that issue
<fregl> API: http://pastebin.com/SFSQ7Z2T
 * API checking mail
<API> urgh
<API> fregl, about your last pastebin
<API> it seems that you are using the old pythong bindings
<API> as it shows bonobo warnings
<API> at-spi2 requires pyatspi2
<fregl> let me check
<API> that doesn't use bonobo
<fregl> ah, I have both installed
<fregl> can I remove the pyatspi 1?
<fregl> seems like it
<API> fregl, not required, AFAIK, you could have both on the system
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I am trying to test that dasher bug of yours
<API> anyway, fregl sorry, but I need to go other place
<fregl> API: thanks, one step further, now I get: ImportError: No module named pyatspi.constants
<fregl> hehe
<fregl> and orca doesn't manager to importa pyatspi at all
<hajour> o its something from orca is i have good understand it ?
<fregl> I doubt that this works, afaik I need the old pyatspi which makes use of the dbus stuff in the pyatspi2 package
<moza> hello
<AlanBell> hi moza 
<fregl> ok, so I can start accerciser from the build dir but not after installing it...
<AlanBell> nigelb: wotcha, how is goa?
<moza> i arrive there on the advice of #ubuntu-women :) i'm a ubuntu user and i work on non-visual HCI directed toward visually impaired people.
<AlanBell> that is great moza, welcome to the team
<moza> i'm not sure i'll be part of the team, but i'll start by being part of the channel if it is ok :)
<AlanBell> :)
<moza> but thank you :)
<AlanBell> bug 599206
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 599206 in compiz-fusion-plugins-main "Typo in "protanopia" color filter" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/599206
<AlanBell> that is fixed in Natty
<Pendulum> moza: of course it's okay :)
<moza> :)
<Pendulum> moza: can I ask where you work? (just curious to know where it's happening :) )
<moza> I work in Sweden
<moza> in the Certec team at the university of Lund
<Pendulum> ah, cool :)
<AlanBell> o/ Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hi AlanBell :)
<AlanBell> I have been doing some work on the Faisal persona blog post
<AlanBell> and my haggis is nearly cooked
<Pendulum> no haggis for me :(
<Pendulum> I wonder if I can get away with scotch later and not choke on it...
<moza> i've heard you're looking at personas?
<AlanBell> we are
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas
<AlanBell> this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas/Faisal is nearly done
<moza> i'll keep an eye on that and contribute if i can :)
<hajour> AlanBell,  why the piece by faisall is left out from taping something heavy on the wrist ?
<hajour> or binding?
<hajour> he has that arthritis
<hajour> i had put that in i had informed that by my mother.she has the same disease
<hajour> Pendulum,  do you now why maybe?
<hajour> and i have the first symptoms from it to. its in the family by me
<AlanBell> hajour: because I haven't finished it yet, I started copying from the wiki and I haven't incorporated your additions made to the etherpad
<AlanBell> and the wiki was an earlier version than the etherpad
<AlanBell> I will pull in the additional text, but I don't want the short sentence structures in the blog post, but will try and use them in a secondary format or something
<hajour> a  ok very sorry then AlanBell  will you accept my apology ?
<AlanBell> of course hajour :)
<hajour> ok :)
<hajour> can i put some help in with the persona s  or is it already finished ?have not yet looked from the time from the last meeting
<hajour> AlanBell, ^
<hajour> i got time now
<AlanBell> yes, but not Faisal at the moment
<hajour> wich you want first to be worked on AlanBell ?
<AlanBell> how about Henrietta
<AlanBell> I wanted the short simplified sentences for that one
<hajour> ok i go look to it now :)
<hajour> i first go look or i can find it.from the last reinstalls.everything is moved on my eeepc 
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/henrietta
<UndiFineD> I think I found the conference hotel for UDS-O
<hajour> well i we cant afford to pay a hotel . and i want to be sure that i can be useful
<hajour> i am still puzzling to yes and no's for to go to the conference.in financial and or i can be useful.and if i can over win my biggest barrier  to speak to so lot of people i not personally know
<hajour> my fear to do that i mean
<Pendulum> My general theory is that anyone who thinks they might want to be there, might as well apply for sponsorship
<Pendulum> (if they don't work for Canonical ;) )
<Pendulum> if the people who vote on sponsorship think you should be there, they'll vote you in. If they don't you then have to decide if you can afford it on your own or get where you work to pay or whether you'd be okay participating remotely.
<Pendulum> Once you get there, I found it a good group of people for someone who is shy
<AlanBell> UDS is friendly
<Pendulum> yep
<Pendulum> but also lets you be friendly on your terms
<hajour> well people had said to go to there to me
<hajour> sorry for late response .i was busy to dig up some information by to read about it for the henrietta persona
<Pendulum> hajour: I definitely think you should apply for sponsorship and to make it there if you can. I just can't garantee that you'll get sponsorship.
<hajour> i don't think i can go there.i already get help from someone to pay my medicine.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> and i am so terrible to write that sort of mails for asking what cost so much
<Pendulum> Sponsorship will pay for food, hotel, and travel if you get it. If you apply and get it and then can't go, you can tell them that. I'm happy to talk through the process once the sponsorship application is out (probably not for another month)
<hajour> always thinking that someone else could have more on that
<Pendulum> and part of what I like about the way it's done with Canonical is that really what you talk about is what you do and why UDS helps you do it
<Pendulum> (or would help you do it)
<moza> What is UDS?
<Pendulum> the Ubuntu Developer Summit
<Pendulum> every 6 months a whole bunch of people do work on Ubuntu and related to Ubuntu get together and plan what's going to happen for the next release cycle
<hajour> well i sometimes also not know the words in English also a problem
<hajour> i cant put the words on the laptop for look it up then
<Pendulum> hajour: kinouchou was at the Brussels UDS and she speaks less English than you do (I think). 
<Pendulum> Anyway, it's not a decision you'd have to make now.
<hajour> Pendulum,  do you think i really could be helpful there?
<Pendulum> moza: it's a broad definition for developer, though. I've been twice and I've never written any code for Ubuntu ;)
<Pendulum> hajour: I think you could have a new perspective that people there haven't seen before and it would be good to have.
<hajour> mmm ok
<hajour> also i cant eat food with chemicals in it.
<Pendulum> I have no idea if the people who decide sponsorship would agree, but I do strongly believe in trying for it and seeing what happens
<hajour> some from them i could be die from
<moza> ok, thanks for the explanation Pendulum :)
<hajour> i have troubles sometimes also with the short cuts moza :)
<charlie-tca> I am hoping to get to go to UDS again
<Pendulum> hajour: I can honestly say they've been very helpful on my physical access needs and I know some people with dietary needs who've had luck.
<Pendulum> I have no idea what things will be like for the Budapest hotel, though
<kinouchou> Pendulum hi
<Pendulum> hi kinouchou :)
<hajour> then i have to know it 2 months before because i need a special passport because of my medicine.i dont want to come in jail
<Pendulum> that might be the hardest bit
<kinouchou> hajour: where you live?
<hajour> my meds fall under the drug law
<hajour> netherlands
<kinouchou> oki
<kinouchou> moza: you came at FOSDEM?
<hajour> there is 6 weeks before needed but sometimes it takes longer to get it.so thats why 2 months
<moza> kinouchou, no, not at all. I'm not that much going to open-source conferences. i've been to conferences on haptics and i'll probably go to conferences on HCI if i get papers published...
<kinouchou> :(
<moza> but i guess i could try open-source conferences next year, after my mid-PhD exam, if i get something published around open-source.
<moza> around participatory design. i'll have to think about it.
<kinouchou> Pendulum: I go to FOSDEM for ubuntu'ss booth and accessibility's booth
<Pendulum> kinouchou: that's wonderful!
<hajour> moza,  you work on visually impaired people i saw 
<kinouchou> for ubuntu it's with ubuntu-be and ubuntu-hl
<moza> yes hajour :)
<Pendulum> hajour: I just realised I have no idea if any of my meds would be an issue entering hungry because I've never been asked about them entering any other border.
<moza> for VIP :) very important personalities :)
<hajour> well i would suretenly look in it or you need a medical passport Pendulum 
<hajour> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour  << moza 
<JanC> hungary is part of the EU, so for most meds it should be okay I think
<Pendulum> tbh, I don't remember them asking me about medications last time I went to Hungary
<hajour> it depends on what meds you use Pendulum 
<kinouchou> I go to hungary for UDS \o/
<Pendulum> kinouchou: you will! yay! 
<hajour> congrats kinouchou 
<kinouchou> thanks hajour 
<Pendulum> hajour: yeah, I"m on some meds that might be questioned. But I'm likely to just go and hope to not have a problem.
<JanC> of course if you use stuff that's often used for non-medical purposes, a special medical passport is a good idea
<kinouchou> it's my present for christmas
<Pendulum> yeah, I don't use that stuff
<Pendulum> at least not outside of The Netherlands
<JanC> lol
<Pendulum> seriously. I go to Amsterdam for 'pain holidays'
<Pendulum> or at least I used to
<moza> Thank you for the presentation hajour :)
<hajour> well i had put the medical thing in it because for to help with accessibility moza 
<moza> i understand hajour :)
<hajour> have you seen the sub page to moza ? from accessibility sub page i mean on my wiki?
<hajour> there are standing issues and possible solutions on it
<hajour> also for bad sight
<moza> i'll look at that.
<hajour> that i had noticed the first 2 weeks  that i came here
<hajour> and have written the idea that was pop up in my head to solve them
<moza> that's wonderful that you write there the problems you encounters and the ideas you have :)
<hajour> we are already busy with a new program named speechcontrol for open source
<hajour> links from that are also on my wiki page
<moza> Just to clarify : i am not working on accessibility in ubuntu. I am working on projects for Visually Impaired People in two different projects.
<hajour> AlanBell, and Pendulum  have helpt also a lot with the program for get permission and sort things out
<moza> that's good :)
<hajour> well i assume its open source i hope anyway
<Pendulum> hajour: you know that with Ubuntu you don't need permission to write programs, right? You can just start a project and do it.
<hajour> well you helpt to get it official the chat room and also phillw helped a lot
<hajour> that was what i mend
<Pendulum> ah
<moza> hajour, part of one project will be open-source, and the other project should give an open-source project too. But it is all research prototypes for now, so nothing is out yet.
<hajour> and that was a lot of work from what i have seen
<moza> an open-source application* sorry.
<hajour> ok .well the mean thing i did was to get so many people in the team who had worked on speech programs
<hajour> from all kind of programs
<hajour> to get them to talk to each other
<hajour> what 1 person not in succeed maybe many will succeed .by to put all knowledge by each other 
<hajour> also AlanBell  have pulled people in with the same goal
<hajour> and UndiFineD  and bedahr
<hajour> its the whole team what make it to a working team
<hajour> in beginning AlanBell  and i had some difference opinions but i know now him a little better .and sorry i was such a difficult person in the beginning AlanBell :)
<hajour> wanted to say that al for weeks .
<moza> :)
<hajour> but moza  maybe if its alright .i am not so long here so . we could help you with your program .is that ggood AlanBell  and Pendulum ?
<hajour> good i mean
<hajour> they are very busy and active people here AlanBell  and Pendulum  most of this team .
<moza> oh, thank you hajour, but i am working already full time on the two projects, and they both involve people who are paid for it. As soon as they will have something to publish i'll probably speak about it so that anybody can contribute :)
<hajour> no i mean we help you
<moza> if Visually impaired people are in sweden, i'm interested in contacts, but other than that.
<Pendulum> moza: feel free to poke people here when you want new contributers
<moza> i understand hajour :)
<moza> ok Pendulum :)
<Pendulum> also, you might want to try e-mailing the e-mail list just in case there are VI people in Sweden on it ;)
<moza> i'll give you links since you insist :) one project is european : Haptimap http://www.haptimap.org/
<hajour> i thing not take it personal.i dont work on not open source projects.its a principal thing
<moza> it is about making maps more accessible non-visually.
<hajour> maps like files?
<moza> maps like the geographical maps.
<moza> the other project is a national project in sweden, a drawing program for school children with force-feedback.
<moza> http://www.certec.lth.se/forskning/hipp_haptik_i_pedagogisk_praktik/
<hajour> great just what i have said in the sub page from accessibility
<hajour> well in a surten way i think
<hajour> yes it is just have see the link.i did not know it already was there
<hajour> learn some new again
<hajour> well i was started this projct because there was a program here in netherland not very good but still.not open source it cost 1295 euro to buy it.
<moza> I will have to leave for now, but i will probably come back here later.
<hajour> most people who have issues cant afford that
<hajour> ok thanks for the talking moza .
<hajour> looks very good the programs
<hajour> mmm AlanBell  and Pendulum  .how can a program be open source if there is payed for it or have i read it wrong ?
<Pendulum> hajour: open source just means that if you have the program you also have access to the source code and can change things as you wish
<Pendulum> there's nothing that says you can't have to pay for the program, just many open source programs are free
<Pendulum> well, are free as in cost
<hajour> but speech control stays a program where people not have to pay for right?
<hajour> i mean it stays in reach from people who have no almost not or have no money
<Pendulum> well, you control SpeechControl. You can license it so that people have to keep any derivative programs open source, but I'm not sure you can control if they charged people to sell the derivative programs.
<AlanBell> the free market sorts it out
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> you *can* charge for Free software, however you are competing against other people who can give the same code away
<hajour> but then there is still the danger it will become a program just for fun or make easy working for people who not really need it
<AlanBell> no danger as the source is free
<AlanBell> one sec, I will find an article about this
<hajour> ok
<AlanBell> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
<maco> hajour: for example, xchat charges money for their windows binary installers but gives free access to source code. if a windows user doesn't want to pay, they can compile it. however, silverex.org offers free windows binaries from the xchat source code anyway, which is where the competition comes in
<hajour> i have a lot of pm s from people who really need a program like this and looking forward to it that it really go work.how longer i work on it how more i am convinced ans realize how much it means for other people 
<Pendulum> hajour: that's why I work on accessibility in general. (I just know my skills are better suited to what I'm currently doing than to coding)
<charlie-tca> +1
<hajour> i am still looking for what i  can do and fit in best for study and work. either way speechcontrol i eat sleep and live with it
<Pendulum> hajour: I honestly suggest that you make sure you don't eat, sleep, and live with it for too long. You will burn out. And then you will have issues. And then you may or may not come back. (This is the voice of experience)
<hajour> i go read the link AlanBell 
<hajour> i mean with that .its very important for me it will go work Pendulum 
<Pendulum> I know. But you will do no one favours by burning yourself out. And it's impossible not to without giving yourself a break from time to time
<Pendulum> AlanBell can back me up on this as he's seen me go through this in the time I've known him
<hajour> AlanBell,  all lines in that link are at touched by each other .and very small fonds . sorry i cant read it good
<hajour> but i let it in browser and ask UndiFineD  to read it for me
<maco> hajour: try hitting ctrl+ a few times to make big font
<hajour> already done maco 
<hajour> its alright i have that often i am used on that 
<JanC> hajour: so you have a living SpeechControl already !!
<JanC>  ;-)
<hajour> well Pendulum  i got a helper who comes 3 times a week for me and the kids.i always was unsure and down.because i felt myself not useful .  she said i completly become different when i started working on accessibility here and on speech control.what special care helpers was not in succeed .is succeed by ubuntu. in 2 months
<AlanBell> also read the GPL http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
<hajour> and they had try it for many many years
<hajour> yes JanC  but that living speechcontrol is 13 hours away a day 5 days a week
<hajour> AlanBell,  the license from speechcontrol is good right?
<hajour> the choice
<Pendulum> hajour: don't spend more than 40 hours a week on it. Think of it like a fulltime job like that.
<Pendulum> I don't know anyone who can spend 13 hours a day, 7 days a week on anything without burning out eventually.
<Pendulum> even 13 hours a day 5 days a week is very difficult
<Pendulum> and that's without also having kids!
<hajour> i will look for it.also if i work to long my team kicks me to bed :)sort of speaking
<Pendulum> hajour: good.
<Pendulum> not that anyone here has ever had to tell me to go to bed or eat. honest
 * Pendulum looks innocent
<hajour> have sometimes the feeling i got many dads and moms here XD
<hajour> hehe
<hajour> i going to get something to drink :) brb
<AlanBell> hajour: not sure what the speech control license ended up as, I know a lot of the component parts have a complicated mix of licenses
 * AlanBell laughs at Pendulum's innocent look
<Pendulum> AlanBell: :P
<hajour> well most have suggest to put GPL 3 on it so that's what on speechcontrol now  well phillw is busy with that.but its already announced on the wiki from speechcontrol
<hajour> AlanBell, ^
<JackyAlcine> Yup, AlanBell, we've torn down licenses from Julius and other components and found out how they could comply to the GPL3 standard. 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-26
<nigelb> AlanBell: Goa was lovely :)
<hajour> good night all :)
<Pendulum> morning nigelb 
<nigelb> morning Pendulum :)
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: you run dasher in Ubuntu, right?
<charlie-tca> Do you have System -> Preferences -> Assistive Technologies -> Enable assistive technologies    checked?
<charlie-tca> well, anyway, with assistive technologies checked, I can not reproduce the dasher segfaults
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I'm fairly certain it's checked (I'm not on Ubuntu right now)
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<Pendulum> it may just be rotten luck for me. it's not consistant that it crashes :-/
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: yes, it's checked
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I got two of you crashing it, and I can't seem to. I will keep trying
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: there's hope. According to the developer, I stumbled on something that he thinks might help get it fixed
<UndiFineD> sad: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=637621
<ubot2> Gnome bug 637621 in speech "Orca crashes, logs me out" [Major,Resolved: invalid]
<UndiFineD> waited for a month for "mike" to contact me on making a backup of at-spi registry
<charlie-tca> like so many others, we get to try to figure out what went wrong
<maco> Pendulum: can you "ulimit -c 0" please?
<maco> i think its 0...lemme double check
<UndiFineD> yes, and I was willing to make a backup, but then not to be contected is ... wrong
<Pendulum> maco: huh?
<maco> sudo ulimit -S -c 0
<maco> itll make it so when something crashes you get a core file instead of no hints remaining of what happend
<Pendulum> ah
<Pendulum> that is helpful :)
<Pendulum> yes, I'll do that
<maco> that can be tossed at gdb to get a stacktrace
<maco> with stacktraces, maaaaaybe i could try to be helpful
<Pendulum> maco: it's telling me command not found for ulimit
<maco> oh hmm apparently use it without sudo
<Pendulum> have set it so we'll see what happens, I guess?
<maco> and whoops i have this backwards. ulimit -S -c unlimited
<maco> 0 is the disabling thing thats by default
<maco> (this is why i should open up the google results)
<maco> from http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-313498.html looks like you put it in .bashrc and then whatever you start from that shell will spit core dumps, so if you're ok with starting dasher from command line...
<maco> hrmph. i thought there was a systemwide way to set it permanently... maybe that was with sudo but is now gone? *grumble*
<charlie-tca> hm, maco, thanks
<charlie-tca> that reminds to have the stacktrace added to the bug reports by apport
<Pendulum> I always start dasher from command line as it's the only way to do direct input
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I know you're probably doing the dinner and children to bed thing, but when you're around next I'm just curious about when you think you'll get the blog post up :)
<AlanBell> I am on a train right now
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: you should be in the train
<UndiFineD> england != india
<Pendulum> maco: I think I have set things up correctly. Where would I find the core dumps?
<maco> Pendulum: in the dir from which you run dasher
<maco> you can test by using kill with whatever is SIGABORT
<Pendulum> ?
 * AlanBell is now off a train
<AlanBell> blog post should be soonish
<AlanBell> I have real work to do
<AlanBell> but the blog post is more tempting
<AlanBell> and a tax return
<AlanBell> blog post is *way* more tempting than that
<Pendulum> AlanBell: so it will be up today or tomorrow?
<AlanBell> I should think so, yes
<Pendulum> (I just was poking to get a sense of what day it would be up, not saying "must be up now" ;-) )
<Pendulum> I wonder if I could use my powerchair to go get the bin from the end of the drive...
<Pendulum> I am tempted to try since the chances of my fucking a joint up going out to get it are high, but I need to bring it in before the snowplows start...
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: no friendly neighbour you can call ?
<Pendulum> nope
<AlanBell> could the powerchair get stuck?
<UndiFineD> :(
<Pendulum> nah, there's not much on the ground yet, just enough that I'm worried that walking I'd slip and hurt something
<Pendulum> I didn't even slip more than a couple inches yesterday and one of my knees went
<Pendulum> okay, going to attempt whatever i attempt now before the snow gets any worse
<AlanBell> Pendulum: smile and wave if you spot any other people out moving their bins
<Pendulum> actually, that didn't go so badly
<Pendulum> so answer is in fact "yes I could"
<IdleOne> damn it Pendulum you had me worried you were going to hurt yourself
<IdleOne> I'm glad you didn't :)
<Pendulum> heh
<maco> Pendulum: sorry my carpool as leaving
<Pendulum> maco: s'ok
<maco> Pendulum: so after you start a shell that has had the ulimit command run, you run dasher. then you can do  kill -6 PID   to abort it which will make a core file
<Pendulum> it has not told me anything in my shell about there being a core file :-/
<maco> hrmm if i wanna install dasher i have to go to *$
<maco> 17MB will not download quickly on my usual connection
<AlanBell> dasher is great
<AlanBell> until your keyboard segfaults
<Pendulum> hmm... so I ran ulimit -S -c unlimited (in the same terminal) in case I'd entered it wrong the first time
<Pendulum> this time I when I hit enter after that (so had not started dasher), I got:
<Pendulum> [1]+  Aborted                 (core dumped) dasher -a direct
<Pendulum> so I'm not sure if that means that it's not done the core dump?
<maco> hit ls
<Pendulum> err.. I meant *now
<Pendulum> faily hands are faily ;)
<Pendulum> ls gives me something called core \o/
<charlie-tca> I keep trying, sooner or later I will reproduce the segfaults with a stacktrace, here.
<Pendulum> well I've segfaulted it at least once today so at some point I'll get another one
<charlie-tca> yup
<AlanBell> hi this is using dasher but for some odd reason it  isn't seeming to want to type capitals
<charlie-tca> I guess I am too dumb to give up on it. It has to happen sooner or later, right?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: in the right bottom corner there's a drop down menu
<Pendulum> you can change your alphabet there
<AlanBell> Thank you 
<Pendulum> I recommend 'English with numerals and lots of punctuation'
<AlanBell> segfault \o/
<AlanBell> if you type carefully it kind of works
<Pendulum> You get faster quickly
<AlanBell> slam the mouse over to the right and type gibberish as fast as it will do it and it blows up
<Pendulum> but mine doesn't always segfault that way. I can be going at a reasonable speed, but not too fast and it'll go :(
<AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/558737/ backtrace
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: does that help?
<charlie-tca> missing most of the symbols, but I can attach it and see what they say
<Pendulum> I'll see what I can get, too
<Pendulum> I just got a core dump from it segfaulting on me
<charlie-tca> Looks to me like the same trace as the gedit failure. 
<charlie-tca> That's good. At least it gives us more information
<maco> those function names look annoying
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: should I upload this dump? Or what should I do with it? (it's currently telling me I don't have the right program to open the file)
<maco> "one step further"? what is *that* supposed to tell whoever reads the code?
<maco> Pendulum: do you have gdb?
<charlie-tca> maco: how do we use the coredump now/
<maco> gdb -c core
<AlanBell> "gdb dasher core"
<AlanBell> then bt
<maco> or that
<maco> (im skimming manpage)
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: this is what I got in the dump http://paste.ubuntu.com/558744/
<charlie-tca> Thanks. I will process it
<AlanBell> here is DasherModel.cpp which seems to be where it is crashing http://paste.ubuntu.com/558747/
<AlanBell> the comments on line 542 and 544 point to a certain lack of confidence in that area
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> Pendulum: can you type "bt" at the (gdb) prompt
<charlie-tca> Will it give a usable trace without the debug symbols installed?
<AlanBell> that is what I did
<AlanBell> and Pendulum crashed differently
<Pendulum> http://paste.ubuntu.com/558750/
<AlanBell> I crashed in RecursiveOutput, Pendulum crashed in HandleOutput
<maco> charlie-tca: dont think so
<charlie-tca> I will run it on my test install with all the -dbgsym packages installed when I get this other stuff done
<maco> ok, recursiveoutput is itty bitty
<maco> and given its name, im guessing there's just a wrong end-condition for a loop
<maco> as thats whats usually wrong with recursion
<maco> AlanBell: can you set a breakpoint on RecursiveOutput running with your core file?
<maco> AlanBell: then use "step" and "next" to go line by line til the crash and pastebin that output?
<maco> (may want to | tee dasher-dbg)
<AlanBell> maco: i have run out of knowledge :) how do I do that?
<maco> load up the core file and type "break RecursiveOutput" (i think...it might need the something:: bit before it, but...we'll find out) then hit enter, then "continue", and it should stop when it first encounters RecursiveOutput, then "step" then "next" back and forth til it crashes. may want to do continue over and over for one run-through to see how many times it hits that function before crashing so you can continue enough times before stepping
<maco>  on a second run
<maco> (i have The Art of Debugging sitting on the table in front of me because im a gdb noob too)
<maco> i figured i had no reason to play with gdb til i figured out how to read a stack trace in something other than Java :P
<maco> and then never got around to learning gdb
<AlanBell> well that was a fail
<AlanBell> managed to crash unity
<AlanBell> or mutter
<JanC> mutter?
<AlanBell> I will have another play with that tomorrow
<AlanBell> JanC: old unity
<JanC> I've never been able to run unity + mutter for more than 30 minutes without crashing...  ;)
<AlanBell> I have been running it for months, I am trying to like it
<AlanBell> nsfw but somewhat on-topic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv3tadz5Q3o
<JanC> unity in natty is much more likeable
<JanC> doesn't crash & about 100Ã faster
<charlie-tca> apparently, I did something wrong then. I couldn't get it to work in natty
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I want to know where that was!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-27
<AlanBell> Pendulum: have a look at the Faisal blog now
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-28
 * AlanBell wonders if Pendulum likes Faisal
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I haven't had a chance to look and I won't have a chance right now, either
<Pendulum> (sorry, have had other things and am about to have to leave for a semi-busy day)
<AlanBell> ok that is fine
<AlanBell> have a nice day
<Pendulum> I will look this evening
<pendulum|phone> AlanBell: Faisal post looks good. I made a couple proofreading changes, but that's it. 
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> ready to go then?
 * AlanBell hits the publish button
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/meet-faisal/
<AlanBell> if people want to have a look at that and shout about any errors or enhancements that would be great
 * kdub_ thinks the "ubuntu accessibility stories" are a good idea on #planetubuntu
<thedarkeststar> what stories kdub_ ?
<kdub_> latest thing that popped up on planet ubuntu
<thedarkeststar> do ya have a linkage?
<AlanBell> thanks kdub_ 
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/meet-faisal/
<thedarkeststar> hi erkan^  how are you doing?
<kdub_> as a dev (oftentimes UI dev) its easy to forget accessibility
<kdub_> a blog post like that is a good reminder
<thedarkeststar> yeah, indeed
<AlanBell> kdub_: there will be another 4 or so with different issues
<thedarkeststar> thx writing this story AlanBell 
<erkan^> me, thedarkeststar ?
<erkan^> I am fine .. thank you. and dyou thedarkeststar ?
<erkan^> *you
<erkan^> (-:
<thedarkeststar> i am fine thx erkan^ 
<erkan^> (-:
<thedarkeststar> and you'r most welcome to participate in mwanzo  if you want
<thedarkeststar> as a reminder..:)
<erkan^> for python?
<thedarkeststar> whatever you like or in the team
<erkan^> wat does mwanzo precious ?
<thedarkeststar> short: helping people to participate in the loco and in ubuntu in general
<thedarkeststar> our wiki is somewhat less short...
<erkan^> I understand, but my english is not good , because I am deaf
<thedarkeststar> spot talent and guiding people/members
<thedarkeststar> sorry to hear erkan^...
<erkan^> no problem
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: nice post! You did a great job on that 
<AlanBell> thanks charlie-tca 
<AlanBell> I am quite pleased with it
<AlanBell> I put a bit of focus on making Faisal quite likeable, someone you could be friends with
<AlanBell> I think that works
<thedarkeststar> AlanBell, it works
<charlie-tca> Yes, it does
<thedarkeststar> its difficult to find a/the balance being "sentimental" (heartbreaking story) and being honest/informative i am not a native English, but i hope you understand what i mean
<AlanBell> yeah, I didn't want to go for sympathy really
<AlanBell> or just informative and dry
<charlie-tca> dry is easy, but the rest is kind of a fine line. I think you got it down quite well.
<charlie-tca> OTOH, I hate reading things that describe me/my family/my friends
<AlanBell> jono: http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/meet-faisal/
<jono> AlanBell, saw that, awesome!
<jono> AlanBell, I will Facebook it and Tweet it
<AlanBell> yay
<AlanBell> thanks
<AlanBell> o/ hajour 
<hajour> he AlanBell 
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/meet-faisal/ got published
<AlanBell> I incorporated most of your edits, but not all of them because I was going for quite a specific tone with it
<hajour> i go read 
<AlanBell> and some things will end up on the other personas
<hajour> its ok
<hajour> hee JackyAlcine :)
<JackyAlcine> Hey hajour. 
<Pendulum> hiya
<hajour> looks very good AlanBell 
<hajour> nice done
<hajour> hai Pendulum :)
<gpc> is there any voice recognition package I can install and test?
<gpc> was at Ubuntu hour today and a couple of people asked because they can't live without Dragon software
<hajour> AlanBell, ^
<AlanBell> simon-listens is one of the best I found
<hajour> what of the programs is already usable
<hajour> ?
<gpc> AlanBell: how does it handle other languages like French?
 * gpc installs and tests
<hajour> i don't know how far JackyAlcine  is with the others
<AlanBell> there are voice recognition libraries, cmusphinx and Julius, but the accuracy didn't impress me much
<AlanBell> simon-listens is more programmable voice control rather than dictation so is massively more accurate as it is only dealing with a small vocabulary at a time
<gpc> AlanBell: simon-listen is not in the repos?
<gpc> ahh, well what the one person uses the app for is dictating letters/emails
<AlanBell> !info simon
<hajour> gpc AlanBell is open mary from simons listen?
<AlanBell> openMary is text to speech, not speech to text
<AlanBell> dictating letters and emails is a struggle right now
<AlanBell> pocket sphynx is probably the best/easiest to get working
<AlanBell> but I couldn't get it to reliably understand me counting to 10
<gpc> ok, so nothing comparable to Dragon
<Pendulum> not yet :(
<AlanBell> I have never used Dragon
<Pendulum> there are people who have managed to get Dragon working under wine, but I don't know if that's currently possible
<AlanBell> it could be that my microphone and configuration are rubbish
<gpc> I don't want to tell them "Yeah! We got this." and then have them disappointed in Ubuntu.
<Pendulum> gpc: general open source community feeling is that there's nothing yet that compares to Dragon
<gpc> ok, so Windows in a VM it is for that.
<gpc> thanks for the info folks :)
<AlanBell> http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/
<JackyAlcine> SpeechControl's working on alternatives, currently I'm proofreading blueprints for an application that can adapt voice models from VoxForge for CMU Sphinx on Linux systems.
<JackyAlcine> The only thing that'll make it useful is people *training* the models, and uploading their training results.
<hajour> hehe i just was reading back
<hajour> thank you JackyAlcine 
<JackyAlcine> No problem, hajour.
<hajour> JackyAlcine,  is head dev from speechcontrol
<hajour> and thank you to AlanBell  for the information
<JackyAlcine> As you can see here, from this submission's page, there isn't much uploaded for CMU Sphinx's free-text corpus.
<JackyAlcine> http://voxforge.org/home/submit
<hajour> hai jibel :)
<jibel> Hey hajour!
<hajour> how are you jibel :)
<jibel> I'm good, what about you ?
<hajour> well i only have the flu but thats all a little less so
<hajour> better then a couple op days ago :P
<hajour> can i help you jibel  or are you just stuck around a bit here :)
<hajour> jibel,  if i already have seen you in past and talked then forgive me.i have not a really good memory:)
<jibel> hajour, I'm just hanging around, 
<jibel> hajour, no worries, I don't remember you ever ;-) 
<hajour> thats oke .there are more here who do that
<hajour> hehe ok .glad i have not forget again a person :)
<hajour> jibel, ^
<hajour> jibel,  i am not so long here on ubuntu only from 30 nov. 2010 :
<hajour> :)
<jibel> hajour, maybe you forgot me but I did too, so everything if perfect, nice to meet you :)
<hajour> nice to meet you to jibel :)
<gpc> ugh, to install simon I also need to install half of KDE :/
<gpc> not happy with that option
<UndiFineD> gpc: yeah it depends upon qt
<gpc> there is a PPA for it though
<gpc> ppa:grasch-simon-listens/simon
<hajour> JackyAlcine, do we need from the first stage of speechcontrol French translators or voice to speak in ?
<hajour> are you from the French ubuntu gpc ?
<JackyAlcine> Sorry for my parts and joins.
<hajour> its alright JackyAlcine :)
<gpc> hajour: yes
<gpc> well, the Quebec team.
<hajour> have you seen my question JackyAlcine ?
<hajour> well gpc  we are busy with a to make a new speechprogram based on a few old speech programs
<JackyAlcine> Yes I have, hajour. They wouldn't have to go directly though us; they could contribute by submitting recorded audio directly to VoxForge
<hajour> gpc, ^
<gpc> yup, saw the link JackyAlcine posted before :)
<hajour> gpc, do you think you could get people motivated for to do that gpc ?
<gpc> I can mention it to some of the folks in the team
<hajour> that would be great
<hajour> we are working hard to make it so it will work
<hajour> gpc, ^
<hajour> i am the team leader from speechcontrol team gpc 
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: I think Daniella might be the next one to be published
<UndiFineD> \o/
<UndiFineD> she was wonderful to work on
<maco> AlanBell: wow i like the bit at the end that shows how to simulate
<maco> AlanBell: on the personas thing i mean
<AlanBell> they are all going to have that
<AlanBell> "How to be $persona" is an important section, haven't really seen that on any of the other persona things I have looked at
<AlanBell> I think that, plus a focus on making them likeable is key, the target audience is developers who have no special a11y interest
<hajour> i have helped UndiFineD  with the Daniella persona
<AlanBell> it is looking good so far
<hajour> just take a black glasses on .close the sides so much you can with tape
<AlanBell> Daniela is the one who is totally blind
<AlanBell> and wants to get into the paralympic swimming team
<hajour> if you still see light then curtains close and of courses no cheating.lights out
<hajour> i have been blind when i was young AlanBell 
<hajour> so i know what it is and how to simulate
<AlanBell> category 11 swimming
<hajour> yes i know AlanBell  but read the lines above
<hajour> what i have written
<maco> or put on a bandana around your eyes
<AlanBell> yes read that, I was just looking up the paralympic categories as you were typing
<maco> so you dont trip getting out of the chair to turn the lights back on
<hajour> no bandana you still see
<maco> not if you fold it over a few times...
<maco> (id probably use my no-light-when-im-sleeping-plzkthx thing)
<hajour> just put the glasses off before you go stand up
<AlanBell> there are also blind experience exhibitions
<maco> hmm i wonder if i can even use a computer without my glasses
<hajour> o and not forget to tell they must wait a couple off minutes befor working after the pc with the glasses on
<maco> hmm ok so i see... a light coloured stripe up top where my panel is... some black for my terminal with grey areas to the black...thats teh text
<AlanBell> like http://www.lathatatlan.hu
<maco> and a grey/white box for my irc client. it has some grey fuzzy where the text fills the window but other than that...
<hajour> because you cant total orientate  any more
<AlanBell> first simulation is to turn off the monitor, that way you can't see the screen, but you can still see to type
<hajour> the first minutes
<AlanBell> then cover the eyes and try typing blind
<maco> the second is no problem for a touch typist
<AlanBell> and then try and get around your own house blind, make a cup of tea etc.
<hajour> and know try to imagine someone cant type because the person was not born blinded
<maco> i dont think i'll be trying THAT one til my flat stops being full of half-unpacked boxes!
<hajour> major problem
<hajour> hehe maco 
<maco> i can barely walk around it with my glasses on!
<hajour> well i was operated 52 times on my eyes
<maco> wow
<hajour> i come in there and see .i come out of the room and i see nothing.i was allone and 13 years.and i have taken the subway and train allone without seeing something
<hajour> 52 times
<maco> why did it take so many times, if you dont mind?
<hajour> so i will try to do it for you AlanBell  to refresh my memory
<hajour> laser operations
<maco> but... did they screw up the first 51 attempts?
<hajour> my blood vessels had become porous behind my eyes and must make good again
<hajour> 1 eye i now see other is blind
<hajour> it could not be made after each other because you are awake if they do that
<hajour> because of the nerves are also there
<hajour> 1 mistake can mean you faces is going to hang
<maco> having just taken my glasses off to experiment, i am now VERY happy that glasses exist
<maco> and that i can afford them
<hajour> yes i can understand that maco 
<hajour> glasses for my (good) eye do not help for me
<hajour> i am already happy i am able to see with 1 eye all is it less working
<hajour> but AlanBell  do you have something about i said ?
<maco> he's marked as away right now
<maco> its fairly late there i think
<hajour> yes oke i had not see he was marked away sorry 
<AlanBell> back now
<AlanBell> just wondered off to watch TV for a bit
<AlanBell> wow, 52 operations is loads
<AlanBell> night all o/
<hajour> ok aye that where the laser operations and after that a emergency surgery with narcoses
<hajour> night AlanBell  let me know tomorrow or i was helpful with the info .:)
<hajour> i go sleep to now good night all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-29
<AlanBell> Pendulum: all set for the user days session?
<AlanBell> Pendulum is doing the accessibility user days session now
<Pendulum> AlanBell: can you tweet that too?
<AlanBell> yes, and do you want me to help with the questions?
<Pendulum> nah, it's sorted
<charlie-tca> well, I missed it. had to go run an errand
<hajour> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/01/29/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#18:01   <<< charlie-tca 
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: it also got moved up 2 hours
<hajour> i had the link from UndiFineD 
<hajour> Pendulum,  habeouscorpus  had still some questions
<charlie-tca> yeah, I thought about moving mine, give more time to get that other session lead back, but I knew I couldn't make the 11:00 one
<hajour> all now UndiFineD  had made chatroom #ubuntu-beginners-accessibility ?
<Pendulum> I didn't know about that
<charlie-tca> Do we really need another accessiblity channel?
<Pendulum> I kinda question that, too
<hajour> well UndiFineD  is now on 3 meetings and follow class python on the same time so
<Pendulum> yeah, we won't talk about it until later
<habeouscorpus> hajour: they were answered :)
<hajour> i think he will answer questions after that would be better
<hajour> ok habeouscorpus great :)
<Pendulum> hi habeouscorpus :)
<hajour> Pendulum, ^
<habeouscorpus> hi Pendulum
<hajour> charlie-tca, ^^see my lines about UndiFineD 
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: charlie-tca :D
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: we're just concerned that maybe we don't need another accessibility channel
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: that may well be, I just created it as a suggestion, back when we talked of #ubuntu-beginners-accessibility-speechcontrol
<Pendulum> ah
<UndiFineD> so any padawan with interest should be send here ?
<Pendulum> yeah
<UndiFineD> ok then I will drop the channel and see if i need to adjust a wiki
<Pendulum> thanks :)
<UndiFineD> :D
<charlie-tca> thanks. I am already spread too thin on IRC
<UndiFineD> thin ? I am only on some ~60 channels
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: how do you keep up?
<UndiFineD> highlights
<hajour> i have got 19 channels 
<hajour> yes and he have me if i see he is called :P Pendulum 
<Pendulum> heh
 * AlanBell has 65 irssi windows at the moment
<AlanBell> restarted it the other day and lost a bunch
<hajour> we are in the same room and a part of the channels where he is in  i am in to
<AlanBell> I typed "sudo halt" in the wrong terminal window
<hajour> 00oo AlanBell  i could not do that i think
<charlie-tca> since I seem to answer a lot of help questions, I don't think I can it with only highlights on
<UndiFineD> chat clients should have a link with the keyring to prevent passwords being said out loud in public
<AlanBell> hajour: your comments last night about vision were useful, some will go into Daniella and some into Simon
<UndiFineD> neat AlanBell 
<hajour> a ok i hoped it would help AlanBell 
<AlanBell> Daniella is totally blind, no light perception
<AlanBell> Simon's vision is failing from full vision
<hajour> full vision is see not clear right ? AlanBell 
<hajour> or is it tunnel seeing
<AlanBell> Simon is one of the older personas, he had perfectly good eyesight (full vision), but it is now going
<hajour> going see more and more less you mean by simon AlanBell ?
<AlanBell> yes, his eyes are failing
<Pendulum> hajour: correct. It means he can see less and less
<hajour> a ok like mine now do
<hajour> AlanBell,  and Pendulum ^
<AlanBell> yes
<hajour> well i would i could talk in speech to tell about it.writhing is much more difficult for me
<AlanBell> but when he was 30ish he had perfect vision - as do most 30ish developers right now
<hajour> i had perfect vision till i was 12
<charlie-tca> my failed already at 6
<hajour> well if i had not been bad sighted then i was not been here.because of my eyes i was not allowed to go to ocean-school to become first engineer
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-30
<hajour> good night all 
<Pendulum> AlanBell: when you get a chance can you e-mail the RSS feed link you used to the mailing list? For some reason I'm failing to find it and my brain is not working today
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/feed/atom/
<Pendulum> ah, thanks :)
<AlanBell> sent
<hajour> Pendulum,  i have a question.if you ask something if you got trouble reading something they use this link to you to ? http://tinyurl.com/5r5vbo9
<hajour> just watch till the end what kind of line is standing before the page with lots more to read is standing
<JanC> hajour: that link is meant for people who don't try to find an answer/solution before asking a question, so shouldn't be used if you *did* try to read/find it 
<JanC> sometimes it's a good idea to explain you did try but had trouble reading it 
<hajour> last time i say it.i have the 1 time more trouble reading then other times.if i could do it i would do it myself
<hajour> i don't want to talk about it i already regret it i have put it in chat here 
<hajour> i just shut up and  nobody will have bother from me anymore
<AlanBell> hajour: where did someone send you a lmgtfy link?
<hajour> http://tinyurl.com/5r5vbo9 this
<hajour> it was in an off-topic channel AlanBell 
<hajour> but we have sort it out AlanBell 
<AlanBell> ok, good
<AlanBell> just for referenc
<AlanBell> !jfgi
<ubot2> Acronyms or statements like noob, jfgi, stfu, or rtfm are not welcome in this channel. Period.
<AlanBell> ^^ across all ubuntu channels and that would include lmgtfy (unless in a very good humoured context)
<hajour> ok AlanBell 
<hajour> thanks for response AlanBell i appreciate that :)
<gpc> to avoid any misunderstandings I think it would be better that lmgtfy links be avoided 100% of the time
<gpc> I personally find them insulting
<hajour> yes me to honest say
<AlanBell> yeah, but I don't want to end up hypocritical :)
<hajour> i would not ask if i could do it myself on that moment
<hajour> the problem is some days reading go's worse then others
<hajour> i always try first myself
<hajour> i don't like to ask help with that honest say.so i try to avoid that
<hajour> assume someone comes in ubuntu beginners or beginners team.he get that link.you don't know or that person have a issue
<hajour> and often people don't like to ask help because of bad experiences in past
<hajour> and then get that link
<AlanBell> in a support context it is 100% wrong
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-23
<TheMuso> [B/c
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-24
<Fudge> phillw  did you get your answer mate?
<yaili_> hi o/
<yaili_> wondering if anyone has a moment to give me some quick feedback on some colours?
<Pendulum> yaili_: sure, I can look at things :)
<yaili_> Pendulum: cool, I'm just going to upload a quick example
<yaili_> ok here's the image: http://ubuntuone.com/22qGrDrZRaupHzUDCBUxv2 - you might have to zoom in to see 100% size
<yaili_> we're basically trying to see if it's feasible to use the Warm Grey colour on text and buttons
<yaili_> or if we should look into a darker grey for secondary information, etc.
<Pendulum> at 24 and 36 it's okay for me, but I would question the 24px text working for anyone with low vision
<Pendulum> on the button the 24px was okay
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to have a look as well?
<AlanBell> o/ yaili_ 
<AlanBell> the reversed buttons look okish, but maybe they seem like greyed out deactivated buttons
<AlanBell> for body text it would be better to have a darker grey or black
<AlanBell> as long as ctrl+mousewheel resizes and reflows the text then the size is fine
<yaili_> thanks
<yaili_> yeah we're studying the possibility of using the grey on deactivated buttons
<yaili_> maybe not exactly like that, but where the grey is the background somewhow
<AlanBell> that seems fine, as a general principle the lower the contrast the less important it is, so body text you have to read lots of should be the most readable, deactivated buttons can be quite faded. Sometimes buttons become higher contrast when you hover over them.
<yaili_> ok, what if for example there was a news headline but the date below it was in this grey
<yaili_> bad idea? or acceptable in your opinion?
<AlanBell> fine imho
<yaili_> great, thanks for your feedback, very helpful indeed :)
<yaili_> do you mind if I add a summary of these thoughts on the design blog? would be good to explain our thinking, if anyone else needs this information
<phillw> Fudge: not on here, but I looked up further on a couple of articles and VCAG v2 is now seen as 'best practice' even though still officially draft :)
<Fudge> gr8 phillw  glad 
<phillw> it's a relief to our web-dev team to know that they can use the v2!
<Fudge> is this the switcher doing this or something else, precise shift alt tab just repeats the focused application
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-25
<AlanBell> Fudge: yes, that would be the switcher
<Fudge> AlanBell  I am told it will msot likely be fixed in the next unity upload
<Fudge> :)
<Fudge> oh do i need to still use the a11y ppa on precise
<TheMuso> Fudge: No.
<Fudge> thanks
<yaili_> Pendulum: AlanBell do you mind if I post of the design blog the summary of what we discussed yesterday?
<AlanBell> fine by me yaili_ 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-27
<Fudge> AlanBell  you alive?
<Fudge> re ubiquity bug
<Pendulum> Fudge: it's 2:30AM where he is
<Fudge> oh oops
<Fudge> thanks Pendulum 
<Fudge> not sure if this is a bug what do you think
<Fudge> on ubiquity where to install screen
<Fudge> the middle option says install ubuntu replace window with ubuntu but i dont have windows, is that just generic or a bug
<Fudge> since above the installer already recognizes that i only have ubuntu installed
<Pendulum> it definitely sounds like it might be, but I don't have an install disk around to test
<Fudge> cool
<Fudge> hopeuflly someone will see the history anyway
<Fudge> is gtk3-0 supposed to be held now?
<Fudge> and libgail-30 gtk-3-common etc
<Pendulum> maco: is this one of the things that was going to be fixed in labeling?
<Fudge> i could not flat review to see exactly what the erro was, i.e two items seperated by a /
<Pendulum> Fudge: I assume, btw, that you're saying what Orca is reading out, right?
<Fudge> yes Pendulum  that's correct, when i asked a friend yesterday though he did not see windows written there
<Fudge> does it help that when setting up your user there is an inconsistency there too, what is your name orca says but the edit box on screen says something different
<Pendulum> I think what it's doing is telling you too much information
<Pendulum> as in, the "replace window with ubuntu" is what the option should be doing since your machine already has Ubuntu on it
<Pendulum> so that all you should hear is "install ubuntu"
<Pendulum> but I'm not positive. I'll look at it in the morning :)
<Fudge> yeah i agree thanks Pendulum 
<Pendulum> TheMuso: If CCSM is removed from Ubuntu, how much extra work is it going to be to make it possible to access eZoom from another control?
<maco> Pendulum: yeah thats a known thing
<AlanBell> well it would be nice for eZoom to be activated by the zoom setting in the universal access preferences
<AlanBell> right now I don't think that does anything unless you have gnome shell magnifier somehow
<Pendulum> AlanBell: yeah. I'm mostly wondering how much work that would be
<Pendulum> since they're talking about removing CCSM for Precise and we need Precise to also be accessible
<AlanBell> probably not much to just turn it on and off, but there is more to tinker with than on and off
<AlanBell> yeah I know :(
<AlanBell> jcastro is on a crusade
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> which mostly doesn't bother me, just I don't want to break something that only just got fulling working!
<Pendulum> especially when it's something that was missing last cycle
<Pendulum> (and my guess is that magnification is one of the most commonly used tools, possibly even more than Orca)
<AlanBell> yeah, I would think so
<Pendulum> *a11y tools
<AlanBell> it is pretty handy when doing a presentation on a projector too
<Pendulum> I can think of many use cases
<AlanBell> there are loads of other cool things in compiz, it is really powerful
<Pendulum> Fudge: in case you didn't see, it's a known issue and we're working on a fix :)
<Pendulum> or, rather I've asked maco to teach me how to fix it so I can go recheck and fix button labels again :)
<AlanBell> bug 922657
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 922657 in software-center "The Big A11y/orca/keyboard only list" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922657
<TheMuso> Ooo nice to see a bug for software center. I just spent more time this last week doing ubiquity label associations.
<AlanBell> yeah, davmor2 spent most of the day playing with orca I think
<AlanBell> [12:30]  * davmor2 is spending a day in orca/keyboard land to see what you can and can't do in USC
<AlanBell> [12:43] <davmor2> AlanBell: it's a real eye opener on how bad an experience you are likely to get to be honest :(
<Pendulum> he and I talked about it at UDS
<Pendulum> he'd like things fixed because it'll make automated testing easier, but he definitely is on board with the a11y concerns as well
<Fudge> thank you Pendulum 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-29
<Fudge> does the old f5 accessibility boot option still enable the accessibility profile for precise?
<TheMuso> Fudge: Yes.
<TheMuso> But I'd like us to get rid of that menu by the next LTS.
<TheMuso> Because it will be easier to activate the profiles once the CD boots and ubiquity is running.
<Fudge> TheMuso  I agree, Bill_T was using it last night and kept on having problems and no sound, when he Control S'd it was fine but daily from 28th crashed on ubiquity.
<Fudge> the menu does offer more of a fail safe for those who do not get sound to hear the drums
<TheMuso> Right.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-01-21
<jhernandez> win11
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-01-24
<amoma> i cant read , please help
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-01-25
<Fudge> amoma  what do you mean
<robotfuel> is there a list of accessibility packages installed by default? 
<Fudge> robotfuel  such as speech dispatcher gnome orca etc?
<robotfuel> yes
<robotfuel> Fudge: ^
<Fudge> well yes they are installed out of the box
<Fudge> are you new to ubuntu
<robotfuel> no I want to know what they are so I have a list. I want to make sure I haven't missed any. 
<Fudge> by default you would probably have to ask themuso or AlanBell 
<Fudge> let me think though, speakup modules are in the kernel, orca is part of ubuntu-desktop meta package
<Fudge> check ubuntu-desktop apt-cache show 
<robotfuel> If I start with this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Core, I want to make sure that all the default accessibility  apps are added back in. 
<Fudge> for a project robotfuel ?
<robotfuel> yes
<Fudge> there wont be any accessibility support in core I doubt
<Fudge> you would need to more than likely figure out your target audience and decide on a desktop from that 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-01-26
<Fudge> robotfuel what are your aims mate
<robotfuel> I just want to make sure that when someone uses core for a project that accessibility is added easily, if it can be. Right now all those packages are removed.
<robotfuel> Fudge: ^
<Fudge> doesn't core just garuntee package management and hardware, not even users are added
<Fudge> it's up to the packages installed to determine accessibility
<Fudge> I imagine
<robotfuel> Fudge: right. but project leads have to figure out which applications to add and they have tight deadlines. to increase the chances of accessibility being added to the project, it would be nice to have a wiki page. :) 
<robotfuel> Fudge: I didn't know about the speakup module, thanks for that info. 
<robotfuel> it was a big help
<Fudge> well thank you, it's a huge help for blind people when it's thought of
<Fudge> sound, software speech
<Fudge> sound can be a big problem, it it muted, is the volume down or has it not loaded yet
<Fudge> the grub menu beep helps also, configurable in /etc/default/grub but that relys on a pc speaker, which is not always garunteed
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-01-27
<Fudge> hows life AlanBell 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2016-01-29
<w0jrl> I'm using pidgin, and orca+f1-f9 isn't working. Is there a way to reset the pidgin script?
<w0jrl> I figured it out. All I had to do was remove ~/.local/share/orca/app-settings/Pidgin.conf and restart Orca.
