#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-08
<TheMuso> c
<TheMuso> c
<TheMuso> ugh
<persia> which model KVM is that again?  I want to add it to my blacklist :)
<TheMuso> heh
<TheMuso> persia: Are you back in JP yet?
<persia> Yep.
<persia> I presume you landed this morning?
<TheMuso> Certainly did, and not feeling too bad either.
<persia> Excellent.  Sometimes sleeping on that last leg just fails completely.
<TheMuso> Sleeping on the long flight helps that though.
<TheMuso> Steve and I actually managed to get premium economy somehow, and the extra leg room plus bulkhead seat row was just awesome.
<persia> That helps a lot.  I was lucky once, and managed to get the far-front bed on a singapore->sydney flight.  Best sleep I've ever had on a plane.
<TheMuso> Nice.
<persia> But the premium economy seats on those planes are really comfortable.  Much more so than on some routes.
<TheMuso> Since that was my first premium economy flight, I have nothing to compare to.
<TheMuso> Also of note is that the flight was very light in passenger numbers. Business class according to Steve was practically empty, except for one person. Economy/Premium economy was largely empty as well, or so it seemed.
<persia> Ah.  On some legs, "Premium Economy" means about 3" extra legroom.  On others, it rivals short-hop business class.  For singapore->sydney, I think it's somewhere in the middle.
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> Well I certainly couldn't complain about what we got for the flight from San Francisco to Sydney.
<persia> For that length, I imagine it's well up into the short-hop business-class grade.
<persia> A victorian friend of mine once told me that the grades get better on the long-haul flights because that means less mass for seats and passengers, which means less fuel consumption, which saves money.
<TheMuso> Right.
<ScottL> i notice ubuntulog is here....that didn't take long
<persia> Cool.  That was fast indeed.
<persia> Of course, it adds pressure to be on-topic, but we're not all that bad anyway.
 * TheMuso didn't notice that.
 * persia either
<persia> Sems to have happened at 0:34 UTC from my backscroll
<TheMuso> bbl, got a blog post that needs finishing.
<persia> About a11y?
<TheMuso> Yep
* jussi01 changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | Ubuntu Studio code: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Lucid Lynx development under way. | This Channel is logged |
<crimsun> hmm, should push that MIR for j-a-c-k a bit
<jussi01> crimsun: yeah, that would be good.
<jussi01> what still needs doing?
<crimsun> jussi01: someone on the MIR team to actually look at it.
<crimsun> it's pretty much out of our hands; we need that someone to say "ok", and then we can update build dependencies and have j-a-c-k promoted
<jussi01> ok, so should we be bugging then?
 * jussi01 is good at bugging people
<crimsun> jussi01: yeah,someone on the MIR team
<crimsun> I'll wait a couple more days then poke if I don't see activity
 * jussi01 goes to look for who is on that team :D
<abogani> Anyone know if I can release the same package through the same PPA for various ubuntu releases (kermic, lucid)?
<persia> abogani: Sure you can, you just upload to the oldest release, and copy to the newer releases.
<persia> By the way, do you have a good summary of the differences between your non-rt preempt kernel and rtg's?
<abogani> persia: Unfortunately only the list of kernel configuration differences.
<persia> Hrm.  That's tricky for me to interpret.  Based on the discussion between you and jussi01, I contacted rtg, and he seems willing to consider some additional modifications.
<persia> If you have time, could you send me an email with comments on the differences?  I'm more than happy to try to get them merged.  rtg just wanted to avoid the -rt patches, but that's separate from the other stuff.
<abogani> persia: Ok.
<persia> Thanks.  I hope I'm not causing you extra trouble, I just think you have a lot of experience in this area, and that there was some confusion in previous communication.
<jussi01> ooh, yummy, James just synced ardour 2.8.6 to lucid
<jussi01> cool scmool, looks like ardour built on lucid also! :D
<ScottL_> yay
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-09
<ScottL> i just bought a frontier designs tranzport for ardour, got a crazy cheap deal on ebay :)
<ScottL> i haven't seen schocastic on much lately
<jussi01> abogani: ping
<abogani> jussi01: Yeah!
<jussi01> abogani: mind if I PM?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-10
 * abogani waves
<ScottL_> reminder that today is the currently scheduled ubuntu studio developers meeting
<ScottL_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010Feb10
<persia> What time again?
<abogani> stochastic: Are you around?
<jussi01> ScottL_: send an email to the list. often people arent on irc bbut still read their emails
<ScottL_> meeting time:   http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=2&day=10&year=2010&hour=19&min=0&sec=0&p1=0  
<ScottL_> or 19:00 UTC
<ScottL_> sorry if this was answered, I had to restart my windows machine here at work because of updates
<persia> No worries.  I might still be up :)
<jussi01> ScottL_: send an email to the list. often people arent on irc bbut still read their emails
<ScottL_> jussi01: i've already sent an email to both the dev mail list and the users
<jussi01> ScottL_: a reminder email?
<ScottL_> jussi01: yes
<jussi01> ok, great :)
<ScottL_> although the users mail is awaiting approval...(i've still got my old, home email addy listed on the users mail list :/  )
<jussi01> not anymore :D
<ScottL_> jussi01: did you add my gmail account to the ubuntu studio users mailling list?
<ScottL_> should I resend the email?
<jussi01> ScottL_: no, i just approved the one email to the list
<ScottL_> groovy, thanks
<ScottL_> interesting flickr picture for ubuntu studio :   http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattgaunt/4242382682/in/pool-ubuntu-artwork
<abogani> very nice
<olinuxx> hi (I'm not a devel, just came in for watch)
<olinuxx> hmm ... is it already finish ? Or not begin ?
<persia> There's been nothing that finished recently, so likely not yet begun.
<stochastic> abogani, I am now
<stochastic> olinuxx, are you talking about the meeting?
<olinuxx> stochastic, yes
<christopherdstam> here's the time: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=2&day=10&year=2010&hour=19&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
<stochastic> olinuxx, yeah, it starts in 15min
<christopherdstam> yup
<olinuxx> stochastic, ok, thanks
<stochastic> Okay who all is here for the meeting?
<ScottL_> here
<ScottL_> but I'm at work so I'll be popping in and out as required
<stochastic> abogani, persia, TheMuso, jussi01 ???
<christopherdstam> im here for the meeting
<abogani> here
 * persia is about
<stochastic> well the first order of business is adjustments to the meeting agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010Feb10  Take a look, what's missing or out of order?
<abogani> It is ok for me
<persia> Missing is status check against Debian for syncs/merges.
<persia> (probably should be before or after REVU item)
<stochastic> I agree, seems very similar to REVU talk.  Let's say before.
<stochastic> If we need to amend as we go along, don't hesitate to shout.
<stochastic> Jack into Main is the first real topic.
<stochastic> Where do we stand?  Are we just waiting for the MIR bug to get some attention?
<ScottL_> MIR was filed:   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jack-audio-connection-kit/+bug/510481
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 510481 in jack-audio-connection-kit "[MIR] Jack-audio-connection-kit" [High,New]
<persia> In the foundations meeting today there were reports that there was an MIR backlog.
<ScottL_> since this will effect several other packages (i.e. building against JACK) can this possibly be rushed?
<stochastic> persia, any idea how big that might be?
 * persia digs a bit
<stochastic> ooh, looks like there's 44 bugs related to the approval team
<stochastic> but a bunch have Fix Committed statuses
<persia> I count 28 that need review.
<stochastic> I guess the main question that we have to tackle is what can we do to further the situation
<stochastic> Should we prepare patches for the pulse audio, alsa, xine, etc... packages that depend on libjack-dev?
<persia> Do we have a delegate who attends the Release Meetings?
<persia> stochastic: That's probably worthwhile, and attach the patches to the bugs listed in the MIR (but don't actually submit for sponsorship yet and clearly indicate they wait on the MIR)
<stochastic> Okay, I can probably tackle that.
<ScottL_> i can help also, we can do like we did on the lv2 apps
<persia> Well, it's only 4 bugs :)
<stochastic> As far as I'm aware nobody attends Release Meetings, maybe TheMuso?
<persia> It's unlikely, given that they are held at 15:00 or 16:00 UTC.
<stochastic> ScottL_, I'd prefer you spend your energy on REVU items
<ScottL_> stochastic: not a problem
<persia> Getting an active release delegate would be good.  Someone who idles in #ubuntu-release and attends the release meetings on Fridays.
<persia> Raising that we needed the MIR reviewed as a blocker for FF may help.
<persia> But whoever volunteered would have to have some time to spend making sure we're in good shape, etc.
<persia> For now, I'll volunteer to poke a couple MIR folk and see if we can get a review.
<ScottL_> FF = firefox ?
<persia> FeatureFreeze
<persia> The point after which we can't add new software, new upstream versions, etc.
<ScottL_> lol, that makes more sense :P
<stochastic> I'm considering volunteering persia, but I'm worried about the extra time commitment as I'm stretched pretty thin recently.
<stochastic> persia, is there anything about Jack into main that will be blocked by FF?
<persia> Yes.  If it doesn't happen *before* FF, and the enablement patches aren't applied *before* FF, we'd need to get a freeze exception from the Release Managers.
<persia> So we have about 8 days to complete this entirely, including all the uploads.
<stochastic> fun.
<stochastic> Alright, well I think that's all we can say about Jack into main for now.  Agreed?
<persia> I don't think a Release Delegate can integrate with the Release Team quickly enough to make a difference at this point (which is why I'm volunteering to hunt up an MIRer), but we ought have one anyway.
<persia> stochastic: After the meeting, if you have time, let's chat about Release Team stuff.
 * stochastic joins #ubuntu-release
<stochastic> Next agenda item: Kernel
<stochastic> abogani, I've only heard good reviews regarding your low-latency kernel
<abogani> stochastic: Yes.
<stochastic> has there been any talk from the kernel team regarding it?
<abogani> Unfortunately UKT don't have any interest in add these configuration settings (-lowlatency).
<abogani> So they release a -preempt.
<abogani> kernel but I don't if it is enough for us.
<persia> I've been watching that thread, and I had the impression that there was still discussion open.
<abogani> persia: No it is close for me. That discussion will end up into a flames.
<persia> abogani: I'm happy to continue it, if you can help me understand what I'm talking about :)
<abogani> Seems to me that UKT have a commitment for their -preempt kernel n they want obey to it.
<abogani> s/n/and
<abogani> In any case their preempt could be enough for use.
<persia> I think https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2010-February/008713.html is the last message in the thread.
<persia> And I chatted with rtg about this last week.
<stochastic> the -preempt kernel, I assume is better than vanilla for our purposes?\
<persia> I think we can get 32-bit support if we can make a strong case for 32-bit studio use.
<abogani> stochastic: Yes.
<persia> I'm not sure we need ftrace.  SLUB/SLAB requires strong argument
<persia> I don't understand CONFIG_TREE_PREEMPT_RCU=y
<abogani> Tim said clearly that only developers use FTRACE. But they enable it into production kernels!
<persia> And TICKLESS mostly just needs a testcase to demonstrate the issue.
<persia> abogani: It's used for ureadahead tracking, which is the awkward bit.
<abogani> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2010-January/008570.html
<abogani> ureadahead?
<persia> It's the bit that loads all the stuff needed to boot quickly into RAM to speed boot time.
<abogani> In any case we can select their -preempt flavour as default kernel for Studio (if they release the i386)
<stochastic> okay, so as a tentative game plan, can we keep up the push for a -lowlatency kernel, but plan to include -preempt as an -rt replacement should that fall through, and in the release notes mention the -lowlatency PPA for those who need the better performance
<abogani> i would want release in PPA aslo -rt
<persia> abogani: Thanks for the pointer to the results.  I'll reply to rtg after the meeting about TICKLESS.
<stochastic> I was under the impression there were no RT patches for 2.6.32?
<abogani> persia: He already see that results.
<persia> I think the PPA should have both -rt and -lowlatency for now.  If we can get -preempt close enough, we might be able to drop -lowlatency
<abogani> stochastic: Right not by upstream at least.
<stochastic> okay
<abogani> persia: make sense
<ScottL_> abogani: after the meeting can you point me in the direction of some information to understand the difference between -rt, -lowlatency and -preempt kernels?  for laymen?
<persia> ScottL_: quick summary: -rt is hard realtime, -lowlatency and -preempt are essentially similar flavours arguing about details in soft-realtime.
<abogani> I placed lowlatency into my PPA. Is it right? Do you prefer the UStudio's PPA?
<persia> stochastic: Your call, since you're wearing the release hat :)
<stochastic> lol
<abogani> tickless is about physical interrupts of timer. 
<persia> Right.
<stochastic> Why is there no -preempt 32 bit?  What needs to be done to see that happen?
<abogani> stochastic: Sincerely I don't understand.
<ScottL_> stochastic:  we have time to think about it and talk to themuso don't we before committing -lowlatency to any particular ppa?
<persia> Also, PPAs aren't limited by FeatureFreeze, so we have time to think about it.
<stochastic> abogani, ScottL_, If we're going to use a PPA I'd like to see it be the Ubuntu Studio PPA simply because it will be seen as "official" by beginners
<stochastic> even if it's the same code and same uploader
<abogani> Ok I move package from https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa to that PPA.
<stochastic> thanks
<abogani> Do you want the same also for -rt?
<ScottL_> abogani: i would like to note that your efforts are greatly appreciated
<stochastic> what is the -rt patched version coming from? 2.6.31's patches?
<abogani> stochastic: Sorry?
<stochastic> how did you make the -rt kernel?
<stochastic> if there's no upstream patches available for 2.6.32?
<abogani> stochastic: Yes no patches for .32 at all
<ScottL_> i think stochastic is asking if you used the patch from .31 and applied it to .32
<abogani> We'll release 31 for Lucid
<abogani> ScottL: No way.
 * stochastic really doesn't like that idea
<persia> abogani: There's a couple things that needed to be backported to make the .31 armel kernels work with lucid.  Have you been following that dicussion?
<abogani> I have already done this job in Intrepid and Jaunty with bad results.
<abogani> stochastic: And for reason I suggest to use PPA for rt too,.
<abogani> persia: Sorry no. Can you give me some URL?
<persia> abogani: I only know a URL for a discussion page.  I'll track something down and get it to you.
<abogani> persia: In any case I suspsect that it is specific issue with armel arch.
<persia> abogani: Actually, no, it's stuff to work with the newest udev and usplash.
<stochastic> abogani, I'd just stick to the -lowlatency version in the PPA simply because the -rt will likely be less stable than -lowlatency and people will likely try -rt over some new -lowlatency version, also reports are that -lowlatency is completely capable of the latency times needed
<abogani> persia: udev Uhhh
<ScottL_> lol
<persia> stochastic: We always end up with users complaining if we don't have -rt.
<abogani> stochastic: So -lowlatency and -rt in the same PPA (that is Ubuntu Studio), right?
<persia> Anyway, I think we've covered the kernel as much as we can in the meeting.  It needs work.
<persia> I'm going to join the discussion with the kernel team, and get the .31 backporting hints to abogani.
<stochastic> abogani, let's stick to the -lowlatency one in the Ubuntu Studio PPA
<persia> abogani is going to push stuff to tht Ubuntu Studio PPA.
<stochastic> and put the -rt one in a different PPA
<stochastic> for now
<abogani> stochastic: Ok.
<persia> We can always adjust that based on user reports/requests.
<stochastic> yes
<stochastic> PPAs are not bound by FF
<stochastic> but merging items from Debian is
<ScottL_> we might send out a preemptive email also to the users mail list about kernels and such,  just so they know what to expect
<abogani> ScottL: Could you give me the URL of Ubuntu Studio PPA, please?
<stochastic> Can we move onto status check against Debian for syncs/merges now?
<ScottL_> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ppa
<ScottL_> abogani: ^^^
<persia> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html is the current state.
<persia> For FeatureFreeze, we need to make sure we merge anything that has a new upstream in Debian (or take a decision that we're not going to do that).
 * abogani started to transfer lowlatency into UStudio PPA...
<persia> Looks like that means work for csound, gimp-plugin-registry, qjackctl
<persia> Who wants those?
 * stochastic can't believe hydrogen got updated to 0.9.3-7 rather than 0.9.4
<ScottL_> persia: how soon does this need to be done?
<persia> stochastic: Well, we can update to 0.9.4 if we want.  Just coordinate with Debian Multimedia like always.
<stochastic> I can probably push gimp-plugin-registry
<persia> ScottL_: By Tuesday ideally, to give a couple days slack for sponsor review (but bug me about them)
<stochastic> csound isn't essential
<ScottL_> persia: sigh, i want to help but I can't commit to that timeframe
<ScottL_> persia: stochastic: I could contact debian multimedia though about hydrogen
<persia> ScottL_: OK.  I can probably do the hydrogen merge, but I'll wait on that outcome to determine which version to merge.
<persia> Ideally, I'd merge on Sunday, but I'm not sure if that will be able to happen :)
<persia> Worst case, we can request a freeze exception for that.
<stochastic> ScottL_ there has been no git work by debian multimedia for hydrogen yet, so it's probably not going to get done by Tuesday
<stochastic> I guess because nobody else volunteered I'll take on the qjackctl merge too.
<persia> Cool.
<persia> That's it for merges/syncs: looks like we're in fairly good shape.
<stochastic> persia, all that needs to be done is a merege request bug opened and subscribe the uploaders?
<stochastic> any essential details needed in those bugs?
<persia> Yeah, and ping me to remind me to be the uploader :)
<persia> debdiff against Debian, new changelog from Debian.  That's about it.
<stochastic> okay, onto items awaiting REVU
<ScottL_> side note about hydrogen:  he's got a /linux/debian directory under the source code directory and it doesn't play well will pbuilder, or buildd - I emailed Allessio (i think that's his name) but he hasn't responded
<ScottL_> REVU - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskLV2Inclusion
<ScottL_> we have four packages in REVU and the only activity has been on zynjacku which I need to work on
<persia> I can definitely hit all those again soon.  Maybe not until Sunday (depends on my schedule), but no later than that.
<ScottL_> stochastic: do you know if faltx will be responsive if I bug #ubuntu-motu about checking other packages
<persia> I'd also really like to see ingen: and will take a swing at it if I have more time.
<stochastic> ScottL_ if you get a MOTU to review one of Falktx's packages I'll happily make the changes and re-upload
<stochastic> poke me
<ScottL_> i will definitively get the first comments for zyjacku resolved this weekend
<ScottL_> stochastic: i will
<stochastic> persia, I was working on ingen so I can try to push it for FF
<persia> stochastic: OK.
<stochastic> I've been swamped lately, but things will clear up by this Friday, so the weekend can be Ubuntu madness for me
<stochastic> though that's just when the olympic party starts outside my doorstep, so I may do the odd drunken coding night next week ;P
<persia> heh
<stochastic> last item on the agenda is the website plan
<persia> I have one more question regarding TaskLV2Inclusion : did we get everything from Squeeze we wanted?
<stochastic> this is on my shoulders, but it's has no hard deadline
<persia> Do any of those need syncs?
<stochastic> persia, yeah, I think everything got synced
<persia> OK.  Someone ought just double-confirm before FF.
<stochastic> sure, I'll take that on
<ScottL_> lv2 related: I'd really like to get lv2vocoder done also this weekend and submitted to REVU
<ScottL_> i had really hoped to get more done but my ignorance hampered me...but I'm getting better, therefore quicker next time
<persia> stochastic: Do you need any input on the website, or is anything blocking you?
<persia> ScottL_: lv2vocoder would be nifty, but only if there is extra time :)
<stochastic> For the website, I'd like to get a meeting organized specifically to discuss it.  As there seems to be conflicting ideas of what direction it should take (i.e. use our own hosting, create forums, etc...) and I don't want to arbitrarily push my opinions
<stochastic> ScottL_, I'd push what's in REVU first.
<persia> I'm generally in favour of leveraging as much shared stuff as we can without breaking things.
<ScottL_> yes, REVU first then lv2vocoder
<persia> Managing our own forums is probably especially expensive.  Hosting is a bit more complex, because of the limitations of our current hosting.
<stochastic> I too think that our team is stretched thin enough without worrying about extra web maintenance, but it comes at an administrative cost.
<persia> Agreed.
<persia> So I think the hosting decision should depend on the total time requirement to deal with the website.
<ScottL_> if we can get a dedicated forum (saying Ubuntu Studio rather than Multimedia) at Ubuntu Forums would be great (it's all about branding and identity)
<persia> And be decided by those that maintain the website.
<stochastic> there are also some people that wanted to help with the site (like detrate) that I'd like input from
<ScottL_> if we can't use the currently available hosting and include our own modules (drupal) then we should host our own
<persia> ScottL_: It's very likely we can get that sort of branding: just add it to the agenda for the next forums meeting, and talk to them about it.
<stochastic> jussi was talking about how he'd be able to do that, so ScottL_ you should probably co-ordinate that with him
<stochastic> I'm also a moderator of the Multimedia Production section so I can attend that meeting to talk about it
<ScottL_> persia: stochastic: I can do those items
<persia> Just to make sure, please correct me if the conclusions below are not correct:
<persia> 1) stochastic to organise a meeting specifically about website hosting, to include those who have expressed willingness to work on the website to take a decision on hosting
<persia> 2) ScottL_ to coordinate with jussi01 and the forums teams to get branding support, and stochastic to provide support in the meeting based on current forum role
<persia> Did I miss anything?
<stochastic> I believe that's correct.
<ScottL_> sounds like a plan
<persia> OK.  Any other business?
<stochastic> I'd also just like to quickly state that the website redesign release date goal should probably be the same as Lucid's release date, but we'll see how that goes at the meeting.
<stochastic> I think that's all for the meeting.
<persia> I'd like to see the new website when lucid RC releases.
<persia> Just because there's always last-minute things that go wrong.
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> oh, one item that just popped into my head: Plymouth
<persia> We probably want to do a plymouth theme.
<stochastic> a while back I was looking into it, but it didn't materialize into anything
<stochastic> I assume that can be pushed after FF with an exemption request?
<persia> I think it falls under a separate deadline
 * persia checks
<stochastic> it's also not a dire thing if we can't get a theme together
<persia> UIFreeze is 4th March, so we have a bit of time (but not much)
<persia> Getting the FF exception for a new package that is *only* UI prior to UIFreeze oughn't be hard.
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> I'll look into it again, but I don't think it's a high priority
<persia> On a fast modern machine with Intel graphics, plymouth shows for about 1 second.
<persia> Maybe 2 on a bad day.
<ScottL_> is it worth summarizing Actions Required from the meeting and who is repsonsible and posting to the dev mailing list?
<stochastic> ScottL_ sure.  Do you also want to tackle posting the meeting minutes to the wiki?
<persia> Yes, along with brief paragraphs on each discussion item as minutes.
<stochastic> err logs/minutes
<ScottL_> I will handle the minutes as well as the required action list
 * persia generally prefers minutes.  Logs are available through ubuntulog
<stochastic> not in this channel
<ScottL_> stochastic: it got changed
<stochastic> oh, wait, there is a bot now
<stochastic> that's recent
<persia> :)
<stochastic> :)
<stochastic> well I'm off to see the Opening Ceremony dress rehearsal and hit on some Sweedish girls
<ScottL_> lol - good luck!
<abogani> Wow!
<persia> stochastic: Have fun !
<ScottL_> i guess that is the end of the meeting then :)
<persia> stochastic: Catch me another time, and let's talk about release stuff.
<stochastic> persia, okay tomorrow around this time (maybe earlier) may work
<persia> Maybe.  It's 5:23am for me :)
<persia> Much earlier works better for me, or a few hours later.
<persia> But I might be around.
<ScottL_> i just noticed that khashayar had built hydrogen-0.94beta2 in the ubuntu studio ppa, perhaps this weekend (very last thing after REVU and lv2vocoder, if i have time) i'll look at what he did and see if I can get hydrogen-0.94 (release) to build
<persia> Still a good idea to coordinate with d-m about it :)  Maybe point at the PPA?
<ScottL_> Not only can I do that but I shall!
<persia> heh :)
<ScottL_> I was hoping to help (probably be the primary) backport to LTS version but I really would like to help get new or updated apps into current releases also, sort of a goal for myself to give back to ubuntu studio
<persia> Personally I think it's better to make sure the next release is wonderful than try to backport stuff to older releases.
<persia> There are some users who can't upgrade, but most of our users seem to be happy to run newer versions, as long as they work properly.
 * abogani personally don't like backport and agree with persia about working for improve the development version.
<ScottL_> i wasn't planning on backporting everything, just audio apps and even then a limited amount like ardour, jack, etc
<ScottL_> i tend to use lts version myself but if later releases are pretty stable i might abondon it
<persia> ScottL_: A big reason Hardy was so strongly recommended for Studio was that the kernels since then mostly sucked.
<persia> Karmic is the first that even deserved mention.
<persia> There's some chance for lucid, but the discussion is ongoing.
<persia> What we really need is for someone to prepare -rt patches that work against the kernel that we ship.
<persia> With that, we can recommend safely.  I'm hoping that the work on "release cadence" with other distributions goes well, because it will help this.
<persia> Until then, abogani slowly goes mad ...
<ScottL_> yes it will...it haven't testing as I had intended after the earlier problems in alpha (hang up during installing software) but plan to be more involved during the RC
<persia> Did you file a bug on that hang?
<persia> And did you get a useful response?
<ScottL_> it had already been reported
<ScottL_> i think many people had the same problem
<persia> Indeed.  Most things mostly work.  I typically upgrade somewhere around DIF, as it seems to be calmer around that point.
<abogani> persia: I already reach that state. 
<persia> abogani: madder ?
<abogani> depressed adn unmotivated also.
<persia> abogani: But essentially, I don't think you can reach a sane point for kernel support until Ingo has patches that match the kernel shipped by default.
<ScottL_> i also run a vanilla karmic on my machine on different partition and it can certainly see the progress (although I generally dislike the empathy thingie in the top right corner)
<persia> ScottL_: You can turn that off by uninstalling empathy :)
<ScottL_> oh really?  I can do that as well!
<ScottL_> i'm really not a social media kinda guy...well, except IRC (guess i'm old school)
<persia> It still has the menu, but it no longer does anything, which isn't as annoying.
<fabrice_sp_> ScottL, what apps are waiting for review in REVU? I could review some of them
 * persia has a "presence" on jabber and identi.ca, but carefully proxies it all through IRC so that the tools don't change
<persia> fabrice_sp_: Look for stuff uploaded by falktx or slavender
<persia> Err, "falk-t-j" or "slavender"
<fabrice_sp_> ok
 * persia plays with REVU tags a bit
<persia> ScottL_: Could you check http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/tag/ubuntustudio and add anything you think is missing to that list (by adding tags to the packages).
<persia> I don't know if we'll use them all, but it seems a handy way to organise what needs review for the team.
<ScottL_> persia: i can take a look, certainly
<persia> ScottL_: also, tag anything new you upload as well.
<persia> With fabrice_sp_ helping, I suspect we can get these through quickly
<ScottL_> certainly
<fabrice_sp_> :-)
 * fabrice_sp_ is reviewing swh-lv2
<ScottL_> persia: i've looked for a way to add tags but can't find it, is it because I'm not a reviewer? or just slightly sloooow?
<persia> ScottL_: Should be hidden right above the comments section at the bottom.  Took me about 10 minutes to find it myself.
 * persia runs off to find food
 * TheMuso waves.
<ScottL_> hi TheMuso 
<abogani> TheMuso: Hi Luke!
<ScottL_> persia: when you get back, i already noted the Tags: line but I can't edit or even add tags (not even to my own upload) I can only pick an existing tag which takes me to a screen showing all other packages with the same tag
<fabrice_sp_> ScottL, you don't have a [edit] button?
<fabrice_sp_> just near the tags  (on the right)
<ScottL_> fabrice_sp_: no
<fabrice_sp_> are you logged in REVU?
<ScottL_> i'm just an uploader, not a reviewer - i'm guessing this is the problem
<ScottL_> yes, i'm logged in to REVU
<fabrice_sp_> strange
<ScottL_>  Logged in as slavender. Your profile  Preferences  Merge accounts  Logout Next REVU Day: TBD 
<fabrice_sp_> yeah: should be some reviewer priviledge :-)
<ScottL_> shows i'm logged in as "Contributer"
<ScottL_> Contributor (spelling)
<ScottL_> says on the wiki ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU ) to be a reviewer I need to be a MOTU
<fabrice_sp_> yeah: reviewers are MOTU (at least :-D ), so just ping us after an upload so that persia or myself put the tag
<ScottL_> will do, thanks
<ScottL_> although at some point I'd like to work my way up to MOTU also :)
<ScottL_> but first Ubuntu Member
<fabrice_sp_> :-D
<fabrice_sp_> sure: I'm sure Universe Contributor will be easy for you (if it still exists)
<ScottL_> fabrice_sp:  weird thing, i have an edit button now for tags ... it wasn't there before, I swear
<ScottL_> oh ho, it says i'm a "moderator" now      how cool is that?
<persia> ScottL_: I don't think you have enough experience to be a reviewer, but I've bumped you to Moderator in the hopes you'll track all our stuff on REVU.
<persia> It helps to make a shortlist so we can hit it easily.
<louiethecuban> hi
<ScottL> persia, hey, thanks
<persia> ScottL: Just don't get me in trouble :)
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> when you say tag things, you mean with just "ubuntu studio"? or try to find all tags, like "audio" or "sound" or "plugin" etc
<persia> I was thinking you would tag anything that deserved special attention by us with "ubuntustudio"
<persia> So we had a nice short list of stuff that deserved priority review.
<ScottL> right, i can do that
<ScottL> and this is something that would need to be review (i.e. me looking at REVU) periodically, say every week or two?
<persia> Between archive-open and feature-freeze, that sounds like a reasonable freqency.
<persia> Between feature-freeze and release, we generally let REVU rot.
<persia> The REVU Hackers often take advantage of this period to update the code, etc.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-11
<ScottL> tocha
<ScottL> err gotcha
<persia> But if you want to do new-package stuff rather than bugfix stuff post-feature-freeze, the best area would be to try to get any of our local apps that are suitable into Debian.
<persia> (preferably into Debian Multimedia)
<ScottL> i'm surprised there isn't more coordination between debian multimedia, ubuntu and 64 studio
<persia> Well, it's complex.
<persia> There's lots of scope for cooperation between us and Debian Multimedia, but we've generally been short developers, which means that we've focused mostly on ubuntu-specific issues and our metas and custom apps.
<ScottL> i realize that 64 studio is currently based on the latest Ubuntu LTS version
<persia> And Debian Multimedia mostly maintains the actual packages.
<persia> As we get more developers (like you) and are getting more done, it makes sense to coordinate more closely with Debian Multimedia (as you've been doing).
<persia> I always had the impression that 64 Studio was largely a custom OS shop for OEM installs.
<persia> They provided a free distro for use, but charged for customisations.
<ScottL> heh, am I considered a "ubuntu studio developer" now? ;P
<persia> I know that some of the main developers at 64 Studio were heavily involved in Debian Multimedia.
<persia> Um, I'm not sure.  You definitely do development work, and you're definitely involved with Ubuntu Studio.
<persia> I don't happen to know the procedure to join the team on LP.
<persia> Someone added me at one point because I patched some audio apps and triaged some bugs and agreed to hang out in this channel and test images once in a while.
<persia> But I was already an Ubuntu Developer at that pont.
<TheMuso> Joining the team on LP is done when one has proven themselves to create high quality patches for code we maintain in that team's code branches.
<ScottL> luke beat me to it...
<TheMuso> team's even
<persia> TheMuso: Do we have a formal procedure?
<TheMuso> persia: not afaik
<ScottL> right now having access to push code is WAY too much responsibility...I need to learn metric tons of things before I would feel comfortable doing that
<persia> Yep.
<persia> That's why I'm not sure you're an "Ubuntu Studio Developer".
<persia> But I am sure you're on the path towards becoming one.
<persia> And you seem careful and responsible, if still learning the technical details.
<ScottL> i hope to get there eventually but i'm having a blast learning and being as helpful as i can
<ScottL> (sorry for the disjointed conversation, fixing dinner for the kids)
<ScottL> but thank you for the kind words persia
<ScottL> i only asked you about that because i was curious how people viewed me
<persia> I can only speak for myself.
<persia> No promises that my statements happen to match the views of anyone else
<TheMuso> My thoughts are similar to persia.
<ScottL> well, thank you both :)
<TheMuso> Welcome.
<ScottL> persia: what was the configure_overide setting for debhelper 7?
<persia> override_dh_auto_configure:
<ScottL> thanks
 * abogani just read it: "Dear Alessio Bogani: Congratulations! On behalf of Novell Technical Training, it is a pleasure to grant you the title of Novell Certified Linux Administrator (Novell CLA) SUSE Linux Enterprise 11"
<persia> Congratulations!
<abogani> I wondering if it is useful at all. 
<abogani> I'm also LPI but evidently not enough.
<abogani> persia: In any case thanks!
<persia> I don't think certifications are useful at all.  For many years the highest certification I had was demonstration that I had completed 6 years of formal schooling.
<persia> But I thik that if anyone tries for something that requires testing or confirmation of others, like a certification program, that they deserve congratulations for successfully reaching their goal.
<abogani> persia: I agree with you. 
<abogani> But I don't university degree so I try to reduce the "formal" gap
<abogani> s/don't/don't have
<abogani> Seems with bad results anyway :-)
<persia> Makes sense, but see above: my highest "degree" is usually granted to children of 12 years of age.
<abogani> persia: ?
<persia> The point being that it's often more valuable to be able to demonstrate what you can do than what documentation you have.
<persia> But I think you agree with me already, or you'd have a university degree :)
<abogani> persia: I agree obviously. Unfortunately seems to me that there are a lot of people don't think like us. :-(
<persia> Unfortunately, indeed.
<abogani> In my latest job interview: Mr.X: "Bogani, Do you have the basic knowledge for working on kernel?" Me: "I working with git every day, I work with some free software/opensource communities and I have made few commits in kernel (but better than nothing)." Obviously my concurrent don't know git at all, never interact with free communities and never make changes to kernel but he had a University degree and he wins. Obviously he could be bet
<abogani> ter than me but in any case have "know how" evidently don't be enough. Perhaps Could I came back to my _real_ work (for which I have studied) ?
<persia> Bother.  That's just poor hiring guidelines.
<persia> If you spoke Japanese, I could probably get you something :)  But you'd have to move here, and I doubt it's worth it.
<abogani> persia: I can't speak and write in _English_ so now way for me to speak Japanese! :-)
<abogani> s/now/no
<persia> heh :)
<ScottL_> jussi01: ping
<abogani> ScottL_: ping 
<abogani> ScottL: ping
<ScottL_> abogani: yes?
<abogani> ScottL_: Is English your native tongue?
<ScottL_> yes, but I joke that I speak/write it poorly because it's my _first_ language
<ScottL_> the joke being you don't do something well on your first attemp
<ScottL_> attempt
 * abogani don't understand well
<ScottL_> yes, English is my native tongue
<ScottL_> I seem to recall that you asked for help writing something in English, if so I would be happy to help
<abogani> ScottL_: Sorry I'm a stupid. Almost always I don't understand something :)
<abogani> ScottL_: In any case:
<abogani> ScottL_: ScottL_: Replying to this email (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2010-February/002237.html) could you 1) remember that -lowlatency is now into Studio PPA and 2) ask to all people if there are some volunteers for compare -lowlatency with -preempt on an amd64 machine? Please mention in email that it is a very *great* help for me.
<abogani> ScottL_: Thanks!
<ScottL_> abogani: I hardly think that you are stupid.  Quite the contrary, if you can muck about with the kernel then you apparently have a quick intellect!  I certainly don't feel up to the task of developing a kernel variation
<ScottL_> abogani: I shall try to reply to the email today (tomorrow at the latest)
<ScottL_> oh, and I'm grateful to be of help
<abogani> ScottL_: Thanks to you!
<abogani> ScottL_: but believe in me you are overestimating me a lot.
<abogani> Good news about kernel side: no serious problem exists running Lucid with kernel .31 (as -rt). Only a already know issue with plymouth.
<persia> You have devtmpfs and everything already?
<persia> Do we need updated alsa drivers?
<persia> I know that the bluetooth stacks are compatible.
<abogani> persia: "tgardner: you guys are just being paranoid. .31 works fine with Lucid"
<abogani> persia: "tgardner: abogani, plymouth is a known issue. I've removed it for the time being. other then that things ought to "just work""
<ScottL_> from what I've read the "real time" kernel is slightly a misnomer - apparently it means "deterministic" time rather than "instataneous" time
<ScottL_> the theoritical goal is to have a predictible time (what ever it's latency is) compared to having the ultimately lowest latency
<ScottL_> that is my understanding
<ScottL_> jussi01: ping
<ScottL_> persia:  i'm look at the REVU for lv2-c++-tools @ http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=7239
<ScottL_> i can't edit the tags and the page is goofy because you can't access it directly
<persia> Right.  Ignore that one (but I have it open, and will try to review)
<ScottL_> persia: i also noticed celtx package but for karmic - should that be archived?
<persia> Is it something we want?
<ScottL_> yes it is
<ScottL_> it would help round out the "multimedia" aspect of ubuntu studio
<persia> Tag it.  Run a recent lintian and update it if you have a chance: just use dch to update the changelog so that appropriate credit is given.
<ScottL_> i already tagged it
<persia> Excellent.  I'll let you do a first-pass review, and I'll do a second pass after you upload.
<persia> Might be worth a mail to the original packager to let them know you're jumping on it: there may be scope for collaboration.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-12
<ScottL> !packaging
<ubottu> The packaging guide is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment - See also !backports
<ScottL> persia: a couple of points about celtx - the version in REVU apparently has appreciable changes to the source code that aren't documented in the change file
<ScottL> i'd already started talking to the original packager about getting it into ubuntu but his hard drive had broken and wasn't available to help at that time
<ScottL> the version in REVU is 2.0 and 2.7 is out (9 months old) but I realize that it's important to just get it accepted and then we can update it
<persia> Um, no.
<persia> Better to update it and then get it accepted.
<persia> No new upstream versions after feature freeze.
<persia> If we miss feature freeze, it would be good to work with Debian Multimedia to get it into Debian, and we'd sync next time.
<ScottL> speaking of Debian Multimedia, that reminds me to send an email about Hydrogen 0.9.4
<persia> :)
<ScottL_> persia: i see that JACK in the main bug is "triaged"...what exactly does that mean?  someone has loooked at it?
<persia> That person was me, but that wasn't the MIR bug.
<persia> That's just an extra bug about jack-in-main.  We undrestand the issue very well, hence "triaged".
<ScottL_> gotcha
<ScottL_> if the proper course is to get the new version of celtx into ubuntu then I really doubt it will happen before the FF
<ScottL_> unless someone really experienced looks at it...it's build on mozilla build
<ScottL_> but as you suggested I can try talking to debian multimedia about it also
<persia> That's probably the best path.  You might also look for help from the folks in #ubuntu-mozillateam, but they tend to be fairly busy.
<persia> ScottL_: s/Ubuntu Developers/Ubuntu Studio Developers/ for next time :)
<ScottL_> doh, yeah sorry, trying to get things done with kids interrupting me
<persia> Heh.  Understood.  I just don't like to say "Ubuntu Developers want to do X" because it's rarely true that there is sufficient consensus for that to be the case :)
<persia> OK.  All JACK bugs triaged except the crashes, and I don't feel like digging through those right now.  Maybe later in the cycle.
<persia> With luck, having everything triaged will help demonstrate support for the MIR>
<ScottL> wife is an RN and doesn't leave work until at least 7:30pm so I'm keeping up with kids, cooking dinner, helping with homework...keeps me moving around for several hours ;P
 * persia has already poked one MIR person, and may poke another soon
<persia> Exercise is good :)
<ScottL> re; ubuntu developer, should I send another email to clarify or think most people won't even notice?
<persia> I'd not send clarification unless someone asks.
<ScottL> after my wife gets home tonight (if she doesn't do it too late) i'm going to spend an hour working on the copyright for zynjacku
<persia> Cool.
<ScottL> so working on bugs = fixing the problem, creating debdiff and then submitting patch to bug ?
<persia> Sometimes.
<persia> Sometimes it's just triage.
<persia> Sometimes it's sending patches upstream.
<persia> Depends on the nature of the issue, etc.
<ScottL> after lucid is released I might try to do some bug work
<ScottL> i figured to be successful (or actually helpful) took experience that I didn't have and decided that packaging was like working in a void (a good one) because noone was "depending" on me
<persia> heh, and now you7re being depended upon for packaging :)
<persia> But after Feature Freeze, most of the development work is bugwork, so I hope you'll help get the software in shape for release.
<ScottL> well, yeah, but my own initiative did that ;P    i could have quitely worked on packages without committing
<persia> Lots of bugs are already fixed, or have fixes submitted by the bug submitters.
<persia> Or fixes available upstream.
<persia> so it's sometimes just a matter of reading the bug, finding the patch, testing the patch, preparing a package including the patch, and getting it uploaded.
<persia> actually writing patches happens sometimes, but don't let concern over writing patches block you from looking at bugs.
<ScottL_> hydrogen:  not only did I email but I'm in #debian-multimedia (OFTC) channel also, if no response in a few days I'll try to contact Free or someone directly
<persia> Makes sense.
<persia> free used to hang out in this channel, but I suspect the lack of time got to him.
<ScottL> it would be considerably awesome to establish a substantial and sustainable working relationship with them :)
<ScottL> maybe even dividing up work if we get more or more able packagers
<persia> No reason to do that.
<persia> Instead of thinking of "group working with group", consider "people working as part of groups".
<persia> So one person can be active in both areas.
<persia> Except for the special packages needed for branding, etc., nearly all packaging should be done in Debian Multimedia.
<persia> Well, there's some patches we need to carry because some bits are a little different, but those are really very minor.
<persia> So, if you're interested in packaging and package maintenance, and interested in helping Studio, working in Debian Multimedia is a good way to do that.
<ScottL_> i've considered also joining Debian Multimedia but thought I should gain more experience and knowledge first
<persia> Sure.  No reason not to do that.
<persia> I'm just saying that the model of having individuals working as members of multiple (often cooperative) teams tends to be easier than the model of individuals working exclusively within teams and building relationships between teams.
<persia> Avoids most of the potential "us vs. them" distinctions.
<ScottL_> well that certainly makes sense
<persia> ScottL_: I'm having browser issues: neither of the browsers I typically use seems to be able to get a good patch from http://trac.jackaudio.org/changeset/3848 ; do you think you could extract one?
<persia> If not, I'll go find someone else.
<ScottL_> sure, i'll try
<ScottL_> i see a changelog and a jackalsadriver.cpp file, which do you want? or both?
<ScottL_> persia: i can also download the unified diff or a zip file
<persia> unified diff please :)
<ScottL_> can I use pastebin to get it to you? or how else?
<persia> If you could attach it to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jack-audio-connection-kit/+bug/494223 , it would be best.
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 494223 in jack-audio-connection-kit "jack alsa driver unable to initialize capture-only mode" [Low,Triaged]
<persia> (that's the bug it fixes)
<TheMuso> what patch are we trying to fetch?
<persia> http://trac.jackaudio.org/changeset/3848
<ScottL_> I wasn't able to download an actual file, but rather text (i fear this was the problem you were having)
<ScottL_> well, text in the browser
<persia> I want to read it.  It's *supposed* to handle resampling inside jack somehow.
<persia> But I haven't read it yet, because I can7t load that page in my browsers.
<TheMuso> oh
<persia> ScottL_: If you got a bunch of text that claimed to be a unified diff, that's precisely what I'd prefer.
<ScottL_> i have the text, how do you want it?
<persia> attach it to the bug :)
<persia> Or stick it in a pastebin, and I'll do that.
<ScottL_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/374377/
<persia> Thank you :)
<ScottL_> sorry i wasn't quicker, two year old is being needy
<persia> No worries.  You've made possible what was previously difficult.
<ScottL_> i'll see how you attached it to the bug later as i'm guessing you are going to save the file as a patch and attach it but I don't know how you would name it
<TheMuso> persia: If its not useful, I have an svn checkout of jack2 here and I can pull the diff right from it if thats easier/better/cleaner.
<ScottL_> away for a bit with son
<persia> TheMuso: The pastebin is very readable for me: I'm just trying to understand it.
<persia> TheMuso: If you understand the code, it's the only bug against jack that has a potential solution indicated in LP that isn't fixed.
 * persia was trying to trim the bug list to look nice for the MIR.
<persia> TheMuso: I don't expect you'd have a lot of time for it for the next 4-5 hours at least, but let me know if you think it would be easy to review (as I've never before looked at the JACK code)
<TheMuso> persia: I have never looked at jack code either, and no I'm busy for the next few hours.
<TheMuso> Speaking of jack2, I was talking to Conor at the sprint about how we need to sort out package names with Debian. If I was to kick that discussion off, would people here be interested in participating?
<persia> TheMuso: Ah, I thought you might have because of the checkout :)  No worries, I'll leave you to work, and see if I can use the patch to cause a noticeable behaviour change that makes things better.
<TheMuso> persia: No I had it lying around for another reason, probably packaging related from some time back.
 * persia doesn't really have enough background
<persia> Were I trying to push jack2, I'd probably start by asking for free's opinion/
<TheMuso> Agreed.
<persia> pity we didn't catch him at UDS :(
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<persia> hansfbaier: Hey.
<hansfbaier> persia: Yes?
<persia> hansfbaier: Just hadn't seen your nick recently, but had been trying to get someone to review libprolooks1
<hansfbaier> Ah, thanks.
<hansfbaier> persia: ^
<hansfbaier> persia: It probably would need a performance fix for the buttons, but I am pretty short of time ATM
<persia> hansfbaier: No worries.  My hope is to just get it *in* Ubuntu for now.
<persia> Once it's in, we can get more testers, and some bugs, and look at how to make it better.
<persia> (and maybe then you'll have time again)
<hansfbaier> persia: I hope I corrected all major packaging errors.... Yes, I know, the READMEs are a bit sparse....
<hansfbaier> persia: My next big thing for libprolooks will be a patcher widget.
<hansfbaier> persia: To make jackpanel be able to do patching also.
<persia> something like patchage, but from the panel?
<hansfbaier> persia: Yes, but it will be visually more like a real studio patchbay.
<hansfbaier> With jacks and cables
<hansfbaier> persia: Well like wiring real equipment together.
<persia> Right.  I'll be curious to see it, although I'll admit to liking a sparse interface for lots of things :)
<hansfbaier> persia: I hope I can make it simple and very usable though....
<hansfbaier> persia: patchage looks nice, but isn't as useable as I'd like to have.
<hansfbaier> persia: One of the main features is that it will group multiple channel connections from one device to another together and thus making
<hansfbaier> persia: it visually much more tidy and informative
<hansfbaier> persia: that would appear like a multicore cable
<persia> tidiness sounds excellent.
<persia> I worried that the graphics for the draped cables might obscure the jacks, but it sounds like you have a plan for that already.
<hansfbaier> persia: both qjackctl and patchage look a bit messy with a lot of channels and connections.
<persia> I can't use the qjackctl patchbay at all.  It gets too messy too quickly.
<persia> With patchage, I can usually come up with a sane map, but it requires it's own virtual desktop.
<persia> Something in the panel that appears and disappears is very appealing.
<hansfbaier> persia: Yes, that's what I had i mind.
<abogani> I'm on the outside, I'm looking in, I can see through you, See your true colors, Cause inside you're ugly, You're Ugly like me, I can see through you, See to the real you (Staind - Outside) 
<abogani> stochastic: Are you around?
<stochastic> only for a few minutes
<abogani> Ok so next time :-)
<stochastic> why? complex issue?
<abogani> stochastic: No issue at all
<abogani> stochastic: I just discovered by chance that you are a processing user. 
<abogani> Processing
<stochastic> sort of.
<stochastic> I've done very little with the language, but have read up on it
<abogani> Ah Ok. I supposed that you are interested on it.
<abogani> more
<stochastic> yeah, interactive art programming is kinda where I love to geek out the most
<stochastic> ChucK is my favorite language right now.
<abogani> Just curious (only because I'm an Arduino user).... ChucK's URL? 
<stochastic> http://chuck.cs.princeton.edu
 * stochastic has yet to dive into Arduino...
<stochastic> Anyways, I should probably be off to bed now. Big day tomorrow.
<abogani> Ok! Ciao
<abogani> Good night!
<stochastic> night.
<abogani> TheMuso: Are you around?
 * abogani is stupid never remember the Luke's TZ! :-(
<persia> 4:00 there
<abogani> indeed
<abogani> ScottL ScottL_ ScottL__: Please don't forget the email
<abogani> No way Tim Gardner don't want release a i386 preempt kernel...
<ScottL__> abogani: i am taking lunch from work in thirty minutes and was planning on replying to the email during that time :)
<abogani> ScottL__: Ok sorry to bother you.
<ScottL__> abogani:  it's okay, you're not bothering me :)
<ScottL__> abogani:  and sorry that you had to use three of my names!  LOL
<ScottL__> hmmm, was going to tell abogani that the email was sent, but it appears that he isn't here (which explains why auto-complete tab didn't work now or earlier)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-13
 * abogani waves
<abogani> Yesterday I talked a bit with Tim Gardner: he don't want support i386 for -preempt flavour.
<abogani> We can choose to do:
<abogani> 1) Forget about 32 bit systems users (Tim called these "old legacy hardware")
<abogani> So suggest to our users amd64 -preempt and -rt, drop the -lowlatency one, use -generic as default kernel for Studio
<abogani> 2) Write an email to kernel-team and provide a valid use cases for i386 -preempt (Sorry I don't write it I'm very near to lost my self-control)
<abogani> So, if we can change mind to Tim and he accept to provide an i386, suggest to our users -preempt and -rt, drop -lowlatency, use -preempt ad default
<abogani> 3) Forget about only amd64 -preempt kernel flavour
<abogani> So suggest to our users -lowlatency and rt, -lowlatency as default kernel releasing both through PPA. That because don't have any change neither to have -lowlatency in Ubuntu archives nor to have an 2.6.32 -rt kernel.
<abogani> How do you prefer proceed?
<abogani> TheMuso, persia, stochastic ^
<abogani> In 3) I meant use -generic ad default kernel for Studio (not -lowlatency because it is in a PPA)
<ScottL> Re: 32 bit systems and kernel, before it is decided to drop support perhaps we should post to the mailing list and ask how many people this effects
 * ScottL notes that he is a 32 bit for his main recording box
<holstein> DUDE
<ScottL> s/32 bit/32 bit user
<holstein> i vote for after the LTS release
<holstein> maybe thats what your talking about...
<holstein> 10.10+
<ScottL> would this render a clean, default install of a 32 bit Ubuntu Studio system without a -lowlatency, -preempt or -rt kernel?
<ScottL> I rock a P4 for my main recording box and I would be rather put out if Ubuntu Studio Lucid came out with a vanilla kernel
<jussi01> why dont we ship both kernels, with the lowlatency one shipped as the last in grubs list? or set as the second. I dont think this is hard to do. 
<ScottL> stochastic, or cory had put up a list from torrent tracker url that showed about equal numbers of 32 and 64 bit downloads (I don't remember numbers)
<ScottL> i think it would be unfortunate to upset half the user base
<ScottL> jussi01, that is a good idea
<ScottL> I would love to tell my wife I "had" to buy a new machine LOL  please don't misunderstand me, but I have that luxury
<ScottL> hundereds of 32 bit Ubuntu Studio may not
<ScottL> jussi01, I was told that you were the person to talk to about getting a dedicated (or renamed) forum at Ubuntu Forums
<ScottL> during the meeting we talked about whether to host our own or use Ubuntu Forums
<jussi01> ScottL: kinda. I know the right people. send me an email with exactly what you want and Illl organise it.
<ScottL> I can do that...I should have it to you by the end of the weekend then (less than two days hence)
<ScottL> jussi01, persia also mentioned putting the on the forum meeting agenda...do you think this will still be necessary?  if so, I will, if not I don't want to muck things up
<ScottL> s/the/this
<jussi01> ScottL: If it needs to be done, Ill sort it. just mail me with what you need, Ill let you know what needs to happen after that.
<ScottL> thanks
<ScottL> jussi01, email sent (I found unexpected time before I expected it ;P )
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-14
 * abogani waves
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-07
<scott-work> it appears that upstream has provided a patch for the recently experienced kernel panic:  commit 729a6a3 "libata: set queue DMA alignment to sector size for ATAPI too"
<scott-work> i really, really hope this fixes this issue
<scott-work> *shrug* but my own experiences belie this hope
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-08
<ailo> I've only quickly looked through the .config file for linux-source-2.6.38, but it seems it is very similar to -lowlatency now. At least the preempt settings seems to be the same.
<ailo> Sorry :). I was comparing the -lowlatency to -lowlatency. I was wondering how come the -generic is as fast as -lowlatency, though
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-09
<holstein> ailo: performance is similar right?
<holstein> i bet this kernel issue is about to just take care of itself
 * holstein crosses fingers
<ailo> holstein: what kernel issua?
<holstein> well, our kernel issue
<holstein> the US need for -lowlatency or -rt
<ailo> holstein: I found the latest -generic to have exactly as low latency as -lowlatency, but didn't do extensive testing
<ailo> After another look, -generic does not seem to have the same preempt configurations, so I wonder how it works :/
<holstein> you could ask JFo 
<holstein> maybe he would know that
<holstein> BUT thats great news on performance
<holstein> i know thats where we are heading
<holstein> and im cool with it
<holstein> i need to check it with FW
<JFo> there have been a number of improvements to performance from upstream
<ailo> I couldn't believe it at first. Yea, you should check your with your fw :)
<JFo> it is part of the effort to move -rt into the kernel I believe
<holstein> JFo: yeah, like in the last version even it seems :)
<JFo> yep
<holstein> thats awesome
<JFo> I'm guessing as to the cause though
<holstein> thats twice recently the buntu kernel team has really noticably rocked the house
<holstein> for me
<JFo> yeah, we have recently been twiddling some settings too
<holstein> JFo: i'll have to test with FW
<holstein> and mark my bitchy bug
<JFo> k
<ailo> If the -generic is as good as -lowlatency or -rt, all that is left is to add user to audio group to be in business. Incidentally, I think on Debian this is done automatically when installing jackd. I will need to doublecheck, but if Debian can do it, why not Ubuntu?
<holstein> ailo: maybe
<holstein> seems like there is something trying to side step that need as well
<holstein> something upstream
<holstein> maybe if we just sit still long enough
<holstein> eveything will just fix itself ;)
<ailo> holstein: You mean not needing audio group anymore? As long as the software needs it, we need it. I'm not an expert, but I don't think we can be without it in Natty.
<holstein> agreed
<ailo> Don't know much about the new solution, but as far as I understand, it won't be fully implemented yet, because the software packages need to be updated
<scott-work> TheMuso: are you finding some time becoming available to help me get the gnome-classic default xsessions patch pushed?  or should i start poking around on #ubuntu-motu?
<scott-work> hi JamesHarrison  :)
<scott-work> morning abogani  :)   how do you and persia stand on getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repository?  i believe the last thing i remember was that you were waiting for the 2.6.38 kernel?
<scott-work> paultag:  are you still waiting for doctormo for ubuntustudio-controls?
<abogani> scott-work: The -lowlatency kernel is updated and synced with -generic _but_ I doubt that it will be included into official repo.
<ailo> abogani: It seems the latest -generic kernel performs about as well as the -lowlatency. Is there some caveat with the latest -generic that we don't know about?
<abogani> ailo: No.
<abogani> In any case I suspect that testers haven't put enough workload in their tests.
<ailo> abogani: We were planning to create a test. So far nothing has been done :/. I should try get something done on that soon
<abogani> However I'll be very happy to know that -lowlatency isn't still necessary.
<abogani> scott-work:  ^
<scott-work> abogani: i infer that persia shares your concern about load and performance when contrasting -generic and -lowlatency kernels
<paultag> scott-work: yeah, I'm starting to get pissed
<scott-work> paultag: lol, dont' stress too much.  is there something i can do to help?  learn glade?  create a UI? fret and wring my hands?
<ailo> paultag: scott-work: What's the deal with the -controls now? Seems like most features are not really needed right now
<ailo> I don't know if -generic will keep being good with realtime, but if it will -lowlatency is not needed.
<ailo> Audio group is the only thing absolutely needed to be in business. Restricted extras seems like a nice thing to add too
<paultag> scott-work: yeah, Glade is really what's blocking. I'm going to hound his ass to get it done
<paultag> ailo: humm? Not sure, but it will be good to unsuck it, at least
<paultag> ailo: if I can make it pluginable then we can be set
<scott-work> ailo: but let's make the decision if -lowlatency is needed or not after some more testing, specifically how they perform under significant load
<ailo> plugin-able sounds like a deal
<paultag> then we can just add a new requirement if we need it
<paultag> and the cost of maintaining it will be simple :)
<paultag> but that comes *after* it's stable and working for natty
<ailo> persia: I started working on a test program using puredata, to test the kernels. When adding CPU workload, the actual process doesn't really need to be processing audio, right?
<ailo> As long as jack is connected to puredata, does it really matter if any sound is put through?
<falktx> hey, how come ubuntustudio doesnt have a 10.04.1 ISO ?
<scott-work> falktx: what did you do with it?
<falktx> scott-work: for 10.04 installs, so we dont have to get all the updates after a new install
<scott-work> falktx: i know, i was just messing with you, like you had misplaced it or something
<scott-work> i need help!  currently the team report looks like a PR campaing for me
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports
<scott-work> er, campaign no campaing
<scott-work> please help me fill in things that other people have done!
<scott-work> use this link and update it if you did something awesome:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/January
<scott-work> or even not very awesome but pretty cool :)
<scott-work> and if someone wanted to volunteer to become team secretary and keep up with the team report that would be uber cool to me
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> i should also note that i'm working on a schedule for the team that is based on ubuntu's schedule
<scott-work> it will help us know when certain things are due, like team reports or alpha release notes
<scott-work> think of it like a play book, it tells you what to do next :)
<paultag> scott-work: doctormo's pissed out on me. I'm going to have to fly solo. he gave me a big middlefinger by sending me 2-minute crap
<ailo> paultag: What do you need ehlp with?
<ailo> help*
<ailo> I'm not getting the same latency results with the -generic as before. I wonder what has changed. It's the same kernel after all
<ailo> ScottL: I don't know what's going on, but the -generic kernel is not behaving the same way as before, after some upgrades.
<ailo> Because of this, I hardly see any reason to compare -generic with -lowlatency, as I am unable to achieve same latency just having jackd on.
<ailo> -lowlatency gives no xruns when flooding the CPU, until CPU reaches 100% (I have 2, so both need to be maxed in order to get xruns)
<ailo> So, xruns do appear after reaching 100% on all processor cores
<ailo> I haven't done any dynamic testing. But, as long as -generic is not to be trusted, I don't see any reason to continue this test.
<ailo> Anyway, my conclusion is that -lowlatency seems reliable and that -generic does not.
<ailo> scott-upstairs: hey
<holstein> that is odd
<ailo> holstein: Yea. Seems like we better stick to the -lowlatency after all.
<ScottL> ailo, sorry, i'm at home now, left early from work to pick up kids before the freeze hits and make the overpasses dangerous
<holstein> yeah, again with the freezing...
<ScottL> ailo, holstein, two things have happened recently in regards to the kernel that i'm aware of
<ScottL> holstein, lol, we're not used to it texas
<ScottL> ailo, first they enable the "100 line patch" and upstream was suppose to be fixing the "kernel panic" bug as well
<ScottL> i don't know their respective states other than i _believe_ i saw that the 100 line patch was included now, i think david henessey (not his real last name) said it was included
<ailo> ScottL: I'm still on 2.6.38-1, but getting different results than before. It must be something else than the kernel that does that.
<ScottL> henningson, that's his last name
<ScottL> ailo, that wouldn't surprise me to be honest
<ScottL> my computer became extremely unstable when upgrading to natty, 4 out of 5 boots resulted in kernel panic
<ailo> ScottL: I'm having trouble booting too
<ailo> But, I'm not sure it's kernel panic
<ScottL> using aptitude i "upgraded" to natty, but choose not to include grub or the kernel updates and it was much more stable
<ailo> Once, I got a message. Something about udevd
<ailo> Allthough, the message was looped
<ScottL> ailo, when booting my computer would stop, most time spit unintellible (to me) text, and the two right lights on the keyboard would flash
<ailo> I'm testing 2.6.38-4 on Debian. It also has some issues, but no problems booting yet on AMD64.
<ScottL> and i had to do a hard reboot
<ScottL> ailo, but earlier i had tried "upgrading" with only eliminating the kernel (meaning grub was included in the "upgrade") and i still suffered kernel panics
<ailo> ScottL: Same here, hard reboot. No flashing, though. Numlock can't be toggled
<ailo> So, it's Grub, then
<ailo> ScottL: Last few boots have been problem free.
<ailo> But, hard to say anything yet
<ScottL> ailo, i don't know that it's grub, but my experience would suggest that it might be part of the problem
<ScottL> i say this because the bug report mentioned that upstream knew of the problem and was fixing it (in the kernel)
<ScottL> so who knows
<ScottL> holstein, i had an idea i want to run by you
<ScottL> in a minute
<holstein> sure
<holstein> im around
<holstein> about to interview JAG from din is noise
<holstein> if we can get mumble working for him
<holstein> or an alternative in general
<ScottL> holstein, it's about the live installer for ubuntu studio, an alternate idea for installing software
<ScottL> holstein, so, i we get the live installer working but can't user the tasksel anymore
<ScottL> holstein, we might consider making ubuntustudio-controls more pervasive to include applications installation
<ScottL> hear me out
<holstein> i like that
<ScottL> before anyone jumps on me because there already is apt-get, synaptic, and software-center
<ScottL> the main apps could still be included on the dvd but not installed immediately
<holstein> just gotta decide what the 'base' install is or should be
<ScottL> it would be preferable to install all the desired apps during the initial installation
<holstein> thats probably where you'll get jumped on :)
<ScottL> but if we can't get a tasksel replacement then this is what we can do
<ScottL> and like the thought for controls right now, on first boot up pops up the dialogue and says,
<ScottL> "you havent' installed any awesome apps yet.  would you like to make your computer awesome?"
<ScottL> but wait, that isn't hte good part
<ScottL> what if we made it like plugins
<ailo> ScottL: I still much prefer a CD over a DVD, because of the problems with DVD. I would shrink the amount of programs installed by default, and add a list of all Multimedia programs to -controls in that case.
<ScottL> meaning you could select tasks to accomplish, i.e. i want to record my band or i like to make techno music
<ScottL> or i want to do video editing
<ScottL> think of this like the banks available in rakarrack
<ScottL> you pick the button (or buttons) that suits your desired "task" and boom! it installs all the pertinent ones
<holstein> i like it
<ScottL> ailo, what problems do you experience with DVD?
<holstein> goes along with the new metas well
<holstein> and no one else is doing it
<ScottL> holstein, there could even be a button that says, "no thanks, i'll install my own apps by hand"
<holstein> *that i know of
<ScottL> for the autostatic's out there :P
<ailo> ScottL: DVD's are harder to burn. You burn on one system, it might not work on the next. 
<holstein> ScottL: yup
<holstein> has to be an opt-out
<ailo> And DVD's get very easily corrupted
<ScottL> just few thinking about moving forward and throwing out ideas to explore
<holstein> it would be $$ if the live installer DVD could be a CD
<holstein> but i dont think we can fit
<ailo> I would prefer a very simple, but functional default installation, and maybe add a "install everything" button.
<ScottL> ailo, i like the idea of offering a cd but there are also some compelling reasons to have a dvd as well
<ScottL> we could certainly explore all the options
<holstein> eh, i like this idea though
<holstein> its unique
<ScottL> if you follow this:  http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=ubuntu+daily+build&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
<holstein> and you could have a 'podcasting' button
<ailo> ScottL: A DVD is nice, if there is no internet connection. From all other aspects, a CD is better in my view
<ScottL> the first three hits should be for "ubuntu daily build"
<holstein> that would get you the stuff from that meta
<ScottL> one for alternate, another for live and yet a third for a dvd full of stuff
<ScottL> holstein, the nice thing about this is that we don't have to use tasks or metapackages for this
<ScottL> of course it means we need to keep a text file with what we feel is appropriate for each task
<ScottL> but that is how it is like a plugin
<ScottL> just podcast-meta.txt file to replace or fix
<ailo> ScottL: If you can provide both a CD and a DVD, that would be great
<ScottL> ailo, we can always ask :)
<ailo> The would cover all uses
<ScottL> ailo, but before i ask anyone about building more images for specific reasons i would want to develop a well though to plan that provides desirable benefit to users
<ScottL> and maybe even have a working demo of the new "control panel"
<ScottL> i really don't want to go bothering people who may not take us as serious and all the "unity users" with half-baked ideas and wishes
<ailo> ScottL: We have the live Ubuntu cd, of course, which works almost as well..
<ailo> ScottL: I think the ultimate solution would be to have UbuntuStudio included as a tasksel in the regular Ubuntu live CD
<ailo> The most important things I find are that you get a functional base system, that is optimized for multimedia work
<ScottL> ailo, or you could use the "super ubuntustudio-controls" that allow you to install apps based on tasks :)
<ScottL> and adjust settings, i.e. adding user to audio or installing better kernel
<ScottL> i think we could provide better granularity for package installation if we moved away from debian "tasks" and the tasksel application
<ailo> ScottL: "Tasks" are so different for everyone. Why not just focus on a base configuration, and maybe have some sort of a database with programs, where you can search for programs after function, like sequencer, sampler, video editor...
<ScottL> again, this is just talking outside of the box and free thinking
<ScottL> ailo, that is true, that could be done as well
<ScottL> or in substitution of what i suggested
<ScottL> ailo, i suppose i'm thinking of new users and trying to lower the threshold for them to become productive
<ScottL> if we have well defined (we're almost there) and documented (not even close) work flows that would help new user
<ScottL> but so would having a tick box to install those applications 
<ailo> ScottL: I think having at least one program for every function is enough. New users are likely to already know what is a sequencer, or what is an audio plugin. 
<ailo> Documentation would be great
<ailo> Some sort of database for software.
<ScottL> ultimately i think it comes down to what we can provide given our means, i.e. are there enough talented people present who can commit ?
<ScottL> i'm not a coder, although i have done programming 20+ years ago
<ScottL> i don't think holstein is a coder
<ScottL> i think paultag is the only person currently onboard who can code
<ailo> Because of where Ubuntu seems to be going with Unity, I think UbuntuStudio should try to keep simple, mainstream and functional
<ScottL> and who isn't pulled in 100 other directions :/
<ScottL> those are very desirable qualities ailo  :)
<ScottL> did you know that i kinda new what a sequencer was, but didn't really understood what it did until two days ago?
<ScottL> isn't that crazy :P
<ScottL> [lsd]'s tutorials were instrumental into getting me to feel that i had enough understanding to begin trying it
<ailo> ScottL: I think for myself, I will be moving on to Debian, now that I was able to compile a lowlatency kernel for myself. For Ubuntu, I think I would rather it was much more mainstream than now. Maybe it should disregard advanced Linux users all together, and only focus on being stupid simple?
<ailo> ScottL: Isn't UbuntuStudio supposed to be a Ubuntu multimedia version?
<ScottL> for "ubuntu" or "ubuntu studio" be more mainstream and disregard advanced users?
<ScottL> ubuntustudio = multimedia version?  good question, i fear that no one has adequately defined ubuntu studio to say for sure what it's purpose or audience is
<ailo> ScottL: For UbuntuStudio. Advanced Linux multimedia users will already know what is out there. New users will want to get working right away
<ScottL> although others would argue my statement
<paultag> ScottL: I'll get the job done, and I'll get it done on time
<paultag> ScottL: I have a plan to keep it simple and get it ready for natty
<ScottL> ailo, i agree, new users are probably the way to go forward
<ScottL> paultag, i have faith in you!
<paultag> ScottL: after that, it will need some cleanup, which I'm sure ailo can help me with :)
<paultag> ScottL: Rock on :)
<ScottL> paultag, would a sketch of what the UI might look like be helpful?  with nice, descriptive comments on what should happen when a button is pushed?
<ScottL> i can do that
<paultag> ScottL: yeah, it really would :)
<ScottL> paultag, this would be functional but it might not be THE UI that others might proffer or suggest or demand
<paultag> ScottL: We're just trying to get anything in place for natty, so if it works, it ships!
<ScottL> hah, found an article on facebook when akgraner interviewed me  http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=417430951545
<ScottL> weird
<paultag> wooo :)
<ScottL> paultag, i will get this to you before the end of this weekend
<paultag> ScottL: for sure. I'll try to get stuff landed in place before that's done so we can push before the 28th deadline
<ailo> paultag: So 28th is the final day?
<paultag> ailo: that's my deadline, and I don't miss deadlines :)
<paultag> ailo[Ca	after that it starts to gsuckl to get stuff uploaded
<paultag> goddamn this fucking lag
<paultag> I type and 20 seconds later it sends. I can't even see what I'm typing. L
<paultag> I'm going to bump off for a few, email'll be on
<paultag> one love
<ailo> paultag: What's you plan? Are you still pursuing a plugin based app?
<paultag> ailo: once it's ready for natty
<paultag> ailo: that's longerm. working is shortterm
<ailo> paultag: Why not just focus on 3 items then, 1: audio group, 2: -lowlatency 3: restricted extras?
<ScottL> that's our MO at work on new designs too
<ScottL> get it working, no matter how ugly
<ScottL> then next time refine it
<paultag> 1 :)
<paultag> +1 *
<paultag> OK, I need to bump off, my ssh connection is really lagging out
<paultag> BRB. One love ya'll
<ScottL> hugs for paultag 
<persia> abogani, You say "The -lowlatency kernel is updated and synced with -generic _but_ I doubt that it will be included into official repo.": is that because of ailo's test results, or something else?
<ailo> persia: Test results seem to have differed a lot lately. -lowlatency is still in demand
<ailo> (for me at least :) )
<persia> ailo, Perhaps, but I'm not going to upload it unless abogani wants that, because I can't maintain it.
<ailo> persia: Getting late here, so perhaps abogani will be able to discuss that tomorrow. I will ask him if I see him.
<persia> If you like.  I suspect he'll see backscroll, and get back to me in ~9 hours in the worst case :)
<ailo> ScottL: How about reducing Ubuntustudio to a single tasksel, and inject the -controls with stereoids later on?
<ScottL> ailo, that is a possibility but obviously we need to consider what our user want and/or need
<ScottL> heh, that should have been users, with an 's', plural :P
<ailo> ScottL: Can't really foresee what the user needs, I think. However, there's still the distinction between Video, Graphics and Audio. My experience with the mainstream user is that he/she usually sticks to one program. One graphic editor, one Video editor, and one sequencer a la Cubase/Pro Tools/Logic 
<TheMuso> ScottL: I plan to make some time to do some other community related stuff in the next week or so, so I'll look then.
<ScottL> TheMuso, exciting news!  thank you :)
<ScottL> ailo, well, we probably should address which audience we are addressing as well :P
<ScottL> newbies are going to need a lot of hand holding, while experienced users will already know which applications they want
<ScottL> perhaps there is a union between the two, perhaps not :/
<ScottL> i wish there was a simple way that users could create their own special recipe to install their own apps during each new install
<ailo> ScottL: Adding software is no problem for the advanced user. Advanced users will often have specific demands, and will tune their system accordingly. New users don't need much to get going.
<ailo> ScottL: And, considering Ubuntu is the most mainstream distro out there (I think), it seems logical that UbuntuStudio should be that among multimedia distros
<ScottL> ailo, so this supports your argument for a basic install first and foremost
<ScottL> this could be a common base for both installs, i.e. experience users and new users
<ailo> ScottL: I think it would be great if UbuntuStudio was more or less integrated into Ubuntu as a slight pimp up, without sacrificing performance. Doesn't seem logical for US to be all too specific, other than mainstream specific, in that case
<ailo> All the packages are out there. And there's PPA's
<ailo> ScottL: To tie things together, I feel what is missing is Documentation
<persia> If there's something sufficiently exciting in a PPA that it ought be recommended, let's get it into the repos, rather than recommending the PPAs.
<ailo> ( Not recommending PPA's, just making the point, that if the user wants to add something to Ubuntu, something unusual, there is always PPA's. )
<persia> Indeed.
<ScottL> like for linuxsampler ;)
<ailo> ScottL: I like your idea of work flows, but I still think those should be in the form of documentation and Videos. Would be best to focus on a few programs. 
<ScottL> there is incredible potential to make things wonderful for ubuntu studio, i truly believe that
<ScottL> and i think that it is also possible to maximize it's potential while keeping the maintenance acceptable and sustainable
<ScottL> i've started thinking about establishing things so that other people could continue the work
<ScottL> this isn't to imply there's an immediate threat of my leaving, mind you
<ScottL> but i think it would irresponsible of me to think otherwise though
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> i think it would be cool if you could open ubuntustudio-controls and push the button that says "Save your Installed applications"
<ScottL> you put in your usb stick, push the button, and it saves a list of all the currently install A/V/G applications
<ScottL> then when you have to reinstall ubuntu studio you insert your USB, start ubuntustudio-controls, and push the button that says "install my saved applications"
<ScottL> which then does as advertised
<ScottL> thoughts?
<ailo> ScottL: A form of configuration backup?
<ScottL> ailo, kinda, yeah, but think of it as a transport to install your setup on a different machine or new installation
<ScottL> couple this with starting with a simplified base install
<ScottL> the new users can select pre-packaged or "canned" setups to install ("record my band" "make techno music" "edit video footage", etc)
<ScottL> experienced users can get their setup in minutes with little fuss with the usb dump
<ScottL> again, they're just saving a list of the audio/visual/graphic applications they ahve installed
<ScottL> which then is used to re-install them on a new machine/installation
<ailo> ScottL: "canned" setups is something that you'll see a lot in Mac, with Logic and Garageband
<ScottL> but that is probably what new users will need
<ScottL> i know i would have liked that when i first started
<ScottL> someone to do the "thinking" for you so you can learn how to use it all
<ailo> ScottL: Premixed sessions, you just add vocals and make some beats to a rap song. That type of thing
<ScottL> ailo, not really, i mean for package selections
<ScottL> if a new user starts with a simplified base installation then that user probably needs help understanding which applications that need to be installed
<ScottL> even our tasksel during the alternate installation leaves something to be desired in terms of explanation
<ScottL> and is grossly expansive
<ScottL> but if a new user doesn't understand ubuntu but wants to try ubuntu studio then think if he installs it...
<ScottL> and -controls pops up on first log in and asks if he wants to install some applications
<ScottL> with very simplified and devoted "tasks"
<ScottL> not just "install some audio applications" and then overload the menu with them
<ScottL> and the user doesn't have any idea what to use or if they even all need to be used just to record his/her guitar
<ScottL> again, just freethinking and welcome comments, criticism
<ailo> ScottL: Linux, I suppose lends itself perfectly for adding abstractions outside of applications. 
<ScottL> it may have been my nature (i need to have an idea of what to expect before i do something) but i found linux and ubuntu absolutely frustrating when i started
<ScottL> i just wanted someone to tell HOW i should do something, but all i got was MANY ways to do it
<ScottL> when you're new to linux, or PC based DAWs or even recording music...it's just too much
<ScottL> just tell me how to accomplish what i want to do...do the "thinking" for me
<ScottL> once you get that under your belt and you have a more basic understanding of the fundementals, then you can branch out and learn other methods
<ailo> ScottL: First of all you need applications that already can do that, I think. Garageband is a perfect example of that on Mac.
<ailo> I think Qtractor is a nice simple sequencer for the layman
<ailo> But for the hobbyist, I don't know
<ailo> Ardour is great, but there
<ailo> there's no midi
<ailo> Yet
<ailo> For an audio layman, what you need is a program that can load instruments, effects and where you can easily record vocals and maybe a guitar
<ScottL> but i'm not advocating a single setup for everything, there could be many options in -controls that could be assessed at any time, selected, and installed
<ScottL> so when you first start, you want to record your guitar...you pick that and install gtick, jack, audacity and learn to use those
<ScottL> later when you move on and you want to record your whole band, you open -controls again, select "record my band" and ardour installs
<ScottL> jackd was already installed
<ailo> For the layman, it would be best if jack was in the background
<ScottL> lol, don't get bogged down in the details, just flow with the ideas ;)
<ScottL> conceptually
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-10
<ailo> I think I would focus more on the actual programs, see what you can do with them, and then add a guide that explains how to use them
<ScottL> ailo, also keep in mind that these "options" to be chosen that install apps based on tasks would be loosely based on the established work flows
<ailo> For a beginner, the program should have functionality. One program per function is enough.
<ScottL> but more than one applications is probably required to accomplish a particular task
<ScottL> and many, many permutations of applications selections could be made to support that task
<ailo> It depends on what you mean by a task. To create a song, all you need is qtractor and some plugins and instuments
<ScottL> but for a beginner, if we have established a best practices work flow and have an option to install applications based on that work flow
<ScottL> ailo, right!
<ScottL> if we decide that is what we would to for beginners to use, that could be what is installed when they choose "record a song with my guitar"
<ailo> On the music side, I think I'm pretty well covered in experience about different software an d functionality. There's not that many different cases for beginners
<ailo> For the rock enthusiast, Qtractor, I'd say. Simple, but includes everything you need
<ScottL> that's a good choice probably, i'm still getting the feel for qtractor but i like it enough for what i've experienced
<ScottL> it certainly offers the inclusion of synths, which is quite handy for the one-man-band bedroom guitarist :)
<ailo> For the electro enthusiast, a step sequencer (I never use them, so I don't know if theres a good one for Linux)
<ailo> I think those two cover most needs musically. Just need plugins and samplers
<ailo> Audacity is a great tool, but most people never need it for anything
<ScottL> but there is also video editing and graphics, or even podcasting, live performance, and others we might support
<ScottL> but i really wanted input on just the idea of using -controls to help isntall applications based on a simplified base install
<ScottL> and let the experienced users install their applications based on their own desires/needs/wants/familiarities
<ailo> For video editing, I have no idea. For graphics, I know Gimp and Incscape are fantastic
 * ScottL thinks that blender rocks for video editing
<ailo> ScottL: I don't think it needs to be very hard. The software is not that advanced yet, anyway, at least on the music side, so you can only do so much. What you need is a guide, how to get going. Pick out the programs that cover all needs for a new user, and work on a guide on how to use them
<ailo> The main two things for a rock enthusiast, beside the sequencer is of course a drum machine, and a virtual amp
<ScottL> ailo, but if ubuntu studio started with a very basic installation, how would a new user install the software?
<ailo> Ubuntu Software Center, I guess should be used by the beginner. I've never used it :)
<ailo> If UbuntuStudio would put the focus on a  minimal selection of programs for the base install, then the rest of the programs could be in a database. That database could be on the web or in -controls, or both
<ScottL> ailo, okay, then we are aligned then apparently
<ailo> A tagged database, where you can search for functionality: sequencer, audio, plugin, sampler, instrument
<ScottL> i just didn't want to suggest that we have a base install, without audio applications say, and expect the inexperienced user to figure out which applications would best suit his/her needs
<ScottL> and installed them
<ScottL> s/installed/install
<ailo> No, I think some programs should definitely be installed. 
<ailo> In a base install
<ailo> Just like Ubuntu has one office suit, one web browser, UbuntuStudio could have one sequencer, and one audio editor, and so on
<ailo> I know there's a lot of people who like Rezound, for example, but who needs it if you're already using Audacity?
<ailo> ScottL: In any case, I think the logic way to move forward with abstracting work flows is to first write things down. Compile it in writing. Then, see how you can create automated work flows with software.
<persia> We started that effort last cycle, and it's still underway.
<persia> The new task model is based, in large part, on the output so far.
<persia> What it really needs is more fleshing out of the use cases: to improve their testability for milestone verification, and their utility for new folk.
<ScottL> ailo, i have no desire to create "automated" music, if i understand you correctly
<ScottL> i only want to automate the installation process or help the user to setup the computer/installation
<ailo> ScottL: Why not just focus on a set of programs, one for each function, and give the user a guide on how to use them. A basic guide.
<ailo> When explaining for instance how to use Qtractor, you first define what is is, what is used for, and show a list of all programs in the repo that have similar functionality. Thereafter, proceed with how to use that one program.
<persia> How isn't this what is being done?
<ailo> I'm just thinking there's no need for many audio tasksels. Just one.
<persia> We intentionally moved away from that, because people were complaining it was too complicated.
<persia> Before, every type of audio package was installed, which meant that if someone wanted to do something, they were confronted with a huge selection of things, rather than being able to just select the stuff they really want.
<ScottL> ailo, and too many applications were being installed
<ScottL> heh, persia beat me to it :P
<ailo> I agree. Too many
<persia> Having lots more tasks is the price we pay in order to decrease the number of installed applications.
<persia> Because for any given class of use cases (e.g. recording), there's a number of applications that are useful along the way.
<ScottL> but that is translated into more selection during installation
<ailo> Why not just have a basic tasksel and a install them all?
<ailo> Or just the basic one
<persia> What is basic?  What does that allow you to do?
<ailo> By basic, I mean, one program for each function.
<persia> We have that.  Which function is overloaded?
<persia> Of course, some applications claim to do many things, but that aside.
<ailo> Yea, I don't know. It still feels a little messy somehow. :)
<persia> Ideas for cleaning it up are welcome :)
<persia> but stuffing it all back in the box is known to be not the ideal solution.
<ailo> I think I would want it to be as minimalistic as possible. Adding as few programs as possible. And the most simple of all, should be the documentation. Perhaps it is the menu that bothers me
<persia> What about the menu?
<persia> Documentation always needs help.
<ailo> Overdoing with a lot of categories in the menu is probably not so nice either :/. 
<ailo> Butt, an easy guide for beginners. Maybe an app, like Ubuntu's help app?
<persia> Any ideas how to present it so that it works nicely for both folks with only a few applications installed and folks with lots of applications installed?
<persia> We have that: needs folks to write help pages.
<ailo> Where is it? Is it in the repo?
<persia> Yeah.  package name is "yelp".
<persia> Doesn't have much content related to the Ubuntu Studio apps though.
<ailo> I think it would be great to have a guide only for multimedia. The things that deserve most attention are those that are typically Linux specific. Jack for isntance
<persia> Are you up for writing it?
<ailo> I guess so
<persia> Cool!
<ailo> But where to put it? On the web?
<persia> I'd recommend chatting with the folk in #ubuntu-doc to get more details about formats and ways to distribute material.
<persia> They have a number of well-established workflows for dealing with the content.
<persia> Just be careful: they always want more people to document the stuff already on their lists, but they will take documentation for other stuff, if you're clear that is what you are writing.
<ailo> Ok, so the documentation ends up on Ubuntu's pages, or wherever, nicely done. How to instruct the user about it? Support link on the Ubuntustudio home page? I wouldn't mind adding a notify app after installing some Ubuntustudio stuff.
<ailo> Or, at least a link on the desktop
<persia> We could just install yelp, and add it to the taskbar by default.
<persia> Same as Ubuntu Desktop does.
<persia> Or did, I suppose, as they are moving away from classic.
<ailo> I would prefer multimedia specific over yelp, which I see as a general Desktop help. I think there's already vast amounts of documentation and Videos about all kinds of things, just spread out. Having a basic guide, with additional links. Something centralized
<ailo> I guess a wiki section should do
<ailo> And something that makes the user aware of it's existence
<persia> Why isn't yelp good for this?  It can handle vast amounts of documentation, and embed graphics and videos.
<persia> Principle of least surprise encourages us to put all such documentation in the same place, whether it be for the desktop, for the audio applications, or whatever.
<persia> to be clear: I'm not opposed to having it somewhere else, I just think it needs a really good reason.
<ailo> I think for reference, Yelp is good. But, for a specific guide, where you focus on a select group of software, maybe it's better with a dedicated guide.
<persia> I'm confused.  I agree that separate content is useful.  I'm not sure why the content shouldn't be delivered using the existing maintained software.  Seems like a lot of extra work to maintain extra software just to deliver content.
<ailo> I didn't know Yelp had pages about US, so that is why I mentioned the idea of an app. Just looking through the community wiki pages on Ubuntustudio
<persia> I don't think it does today.
<persia> But the key thing is that yelp is documentation viewing application: any package can provide content that yelp will display.
<persia> The content just has to be in yelp format.
<persia> The documentation team has a format and some tools that let them convert their working format into moinmoin and yelp automatically, so they write once and deploy to both help.ubuntu.com and yelp.
<persia> I suspect that by talking to them, you can get information about this format and the conversion tools.
<persia> And then you can use this format to deploy your content in both places.
<persia> So that your documentation is seamlessly integrated with the rest of the environment.
<persia> (and you don't have to maintain any code: just the content, using the ubuntu-doc infrastructure, and yelp)
<ailo> Sounds like a deal
<persia> Ah, we were both confused.  The backlog all makes more sense now :)
<ScottL> yes, i see that ailo and i had different definitions of "basic install" :P
<ailo> I think what ScottL is after and what I agree on is to provide some way for the user to easily get into using the programs. I guess I'm more inclined on doing that through documentation, and focusing on just a few programs.
<persia> I think there's room for both approaches.
<persia> Use ScottL's vision to ensure that the user can install an appropriate suite of software without feeling like they have too many applications.
<persia> use ailo's vision to ensure that the user has effective documentation on how to use the tools available for each workflow.
<persia> In the case of disagreement about which applications are useful for a workflow, go back to reviewing the workflow documentation and test cases, and discuss more widely.
<ailo> Yes. A minimal install, that still covers all the basic uses
<persia> "basic" is still hard to define :)
<ailo> Or, should I say "standard". There are some uses that are linux specific too.
<persia> "standard" is just as hard.
<persia> Is recording a live instrument a standard case?
<persia> Is creating a patchset out of found audio a standard case?
<persia> Is MIDI sequencing a standard case?
<persia> Is tracking a standard case?
<persia> (and that's just within audio stuff)
<ailo> I think standard is what most users do, and new users especially. For audio, I'd say, two types of daws, an audio editor, and the use of plugins (fx and instruments)
<ailo> Two types of daws: cubase / fruity loops
<ailo> At least, that is how I would start when writing a guide on how to make music on UbuntuStudio
<persia> Those seem reasonable places to start.
<persia> It may make sense to try to find some commonality between the workflows defined and the areas you seek to document.
<persia> Just to make sure there is some alignment in terms of package selection to achieve the task, etc.
<ailo> For linux specific stuff, the concept of jack and the ability to connect programs together. Once knowing that, the user will find it's own ways
<ailo> At least the software used in the core of the guide could be installed by default
<ScottL> coming to grips with the concept of jack is a huge hurdle for users, and probably one of the first they encounter
<ScottL> ailo, if you would like to collaborate on the documentation i would love to be a part of it
<ailo> ScottL: Sure. For now, I'm just thinking about where to start. I'll be focusing only on Audio to begin with. I'm thinking of a quick start section. Start jack, start a program, get sound out.
<ailo> And then move onto work flows. Record a song. Make an electronic piece. Things like that.
<ScottL> ailo, you might also look at this:  http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora_Draft_Documentation/0.1/html/Musicians_Guide/index.html
<ScottL> it's kinda light on specifics but it has a good structure though
<scott-upstairs> persia, you have mentioned that there is a better way to install flashplayer than how ubuntu-restricted-extras handles it
<scott-upstairs> persia, can you tell me more about it?
<scott-upstairs> using inkscape on a dual core just rocks that much faster! ;)
<persia> scott-upstairs, I'm not sure it's better, but it's alternate.  There's a adobe-flashplayer package in the Canonical partner repo.
<scott-upstairs> ah, okay, i'll look into that and perhaps suggest it to paul.tag instead of the one in ubuntu-restricted-extras
<persia> The one in ubuntu-restricted-extras just downloads the one in canonical partner, unpacks it, and installs it as a non-package.
<scott-upstairs> paultag, sketch of how the -controls might be: http://imagebin.org/137090
<scott-upstairs> anyone else want to look and offer opinions is groovy too
<scott-upstairs> paultag, i'll explain this one and work on the other tabs soon
<scott-upstairs> paultag, doesn't have to be tabs, i just like the mental separation currently
<scott-upstairs> goodnight :)
<ScottL> okay, before i actually go to bed i checked mail, got a comment on my blog suggesting use of this theme:
<ScottL> http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875
<ScottL> looks pretty good actually
<ScottL> especially the last image
<abogani> persia: Merely because I never see a community kernel pushed into archives *after* Alpha3 (only Canonical sponsored kernels receive that honour). And at the moment 1) documentation isn't still produced 2) No one of the UBK have reviewed -lowlatency kernel despite it is the first appears on kernel.ubuntu.com/git 3) Almost all UKT members thinks that -lowlatency is a useless kernel. So you can understand whi I don't think that -lowlatency 
<ailo> ScottL: paultag: The scetch is nice, but I don't see any point in changing rt settings other than adding/removing /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf. I would even put that and adding user to audio group into a single toggle, called "enable realtime for this user" or something, and maybe add info somewhere as to what it does.
<ailo> paultag: ScottL: I would also prefer to have the checks in one window, 1. check if user has realtime (both audio.conf and audio group), 2. check for kernel 3. check extras. At this poing only No1 is absolutely needed.
<ScottL> ailo, good points
<ailo> ScottL: paultag: These may be a little ugly, but I was trying to put together the shape of it functionality-wise http://imagebin.org/137158
<ailo> http://imagebin.org/137159
<ailo> http://imagebin.org/137160
<ailo> I don't know if it's possible to decide which "type" of kernel should be booted by default (going by the names -generic / -lowlatency / -realtime. All I know is, you can decide which exact kernel should be booted by default.
<ailo> ScottL: paultag: Here's one with sections but no tabs http://imagebin.org/137168
<ailo> Hey, falktx. What do you think? http://imagebin.org/137168
 * abogani has just updated -lowlatency kernel...
<falktx> ailo: honestly, looks kinda primitive, but if it works...
<falktx> hey abogani
<abogani> falktx: Hi!
<falktx> abogani: is  it possible to update the lucid realtime kernel to the latest patchset ?
<ailo> falktx: Just an idea of the functions and categories of the -controls. What are you missing there?
<falktx> abogani: btw, I used your old realtime-31 for the new ppas
<falktx> abogani: I mean, update the lucid kernel is your ppa, is it possible?
<falktx> ailo: hm, the *_PATH for plugins?
<falktx> ailo: I started making my own plugin host now, so I havent dealed with the my US-controls new replacement thing
<falktx> ailo: but ScottL suggested to have a patchbay inside the controls app, what do  you think?
<ailo> falktx: You mean *_PATH for VST plugins? 
<falktx> ailo: LADSPA_PATH, DSSI_PATH, etc
<AutoStatic> Why would you want to set up  a path for plugins?
<ailo> falktx: I wouldn't mind the controls to have all functions, but for Natty, at least get the elementary stuff in. I use only one toggle for RT privilegue, for instance, which makes sure audio.conf exists and adds chosen user to Audio Group. 
<AutoStatic> Rt privileges
<AutoStatic> ;)
<falktx> AutoStatic: user may download plugins and put them in a folder
 * ailo needs to learn how to spell
<AutoStatic> falktx: that's where PPA's come in handy ;)
<falktx> ailo: i agree, making it simple also means it's released/done faster
<AutoStatic> And any user that knows how to download plug-ins also knows where to put them
<falktx> AutoStatic: the main reason for this is that some apps dont support recursive search of plugins
<falktx> AutoStatic: i have some VST organized by maker (in folders), and I need to set VST_PATH to all dirs to make them work
<AutoStatic> What kind of plug-ins are we talking about then?
<falktx> AutoStatic: i would now except users to copy all Windows VSTs to /usr/lib/vst
<falktx> also, some vsts install under wine program-files...
<AutoStatic> So we're talking mainly VST's here
<falktx> yep, kinda
<falktx> AutoStatic: maybe an user has it's own plugin pack in ~/plugins... <- this may happen
<AutoStatic> To be honest, I don't think an open source distro shouldn't bother too much with pulling in even more closed source binary blobs
<AutoStatic> But that's just my 2Â¢
<AutoStatic> And I'm seeing this too much from my own perspective as I don't use any VST's myself
<falktx> AutoStatic: you have no idea how many mails I got about something like "I do I make this Windows app work?"
<abogani> falktx: Sorry I don't understand. In my ppa last rt kernel available is .33-rt29
<falktx> vsts are the bridge to the people coming from windows
<AutoStatic> And what do you send them back? http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm ?
<falktx> abogani: yes, the rt patchset rt30 is available
<falktx> AutoStatic: haha
<falktx> AutoStatic: still,  I need to stuff to fill the app with
<AutoStatic> You need stuff to fill the app with?
<falktx> AutoStatic: for me, having extra configuration is good, as the user can simply ignore it if doesnt need it
<falktx> AutoStatic: i mean, configuration dialogs
 * falktx doesnt have the screenshot link
<AutoStatic> http://imagebin.org/137168
<AutoStatic> Then set things up like permissions for hardware timers, rtirq, swappiness, disabling xrun prone services etc.
<falktx> AutoStatic: i mean my tool...
<AutoStatic> ah :)
<falktx> AutoStatic: i want to fill it with lots of configuration stuff
<falktx> (assuming they are not completely useless)
<AutoStatic> It would be really cool if someone could make the realtimequickconfigscan tool into something that could actually set up things for you
<falktx> AutoStatic: that's my plan
<AutoStatic> Awesome!
<falktx> AutoStatic: currently I'm trying to make my own audio plugin host
<falktx> AutoStatic: i got the idea of making the GUI in python, but using C code as backend
<AutoStatic> Yeah, another awesome thing
<falktx> AutoStatic: this way it can host 32bit, 64bit and windows plugins at the same time!
<AutoStatic> Which frameworks will it support?
<falktx> AutoStatic: my plan is to do it in full jack audio+midi, with all standards available
<falktx> AutoStatic: hehe, I want to be able to use LMMS synths too
<AutoStatic> standards available, so DSSI, LADSPA, LV2 and LinuxVST?
<falktx> AutoStatic: yes
<AutoStatic> And WIndows VST's?
<falktx> AutoStatic: yes
<falktx> AutoStatic: also windows ladspa, if the user wants
<AutoStatic> So you want to create a working Jost with LV2 support
<falktx> AutoStatic: ahah, yes
<AutoStatic> Now that would be KX!
<AutoStatic> As in kick axe
<falktx> AutoStatic: i already have the patchbay, I just need the audio-host
<AutoStatic> Oh yeah, the LMMS synths are actually quite nice
<falktx> AutoStatic: currently it checks properly for ladspa and dssi and adds them to the menu, but the plugins wont work
<falktx> yep
<falktx> AutoStatic: but, as you can imagine, this will take a while
<falktx> I want to get ladspa working first, then I'll move to dssi
<AutoStatic> Yeah, you're reaching a point where you will have to set priorities
<falktx> AutoStatic: btw, take a look:
<falktx> http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1184/scr001.jpg
<falktx> http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7760/scr002y.jpg
<falktx> http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/1218/scr003.jpg
<falktx> (just posted on the forums ^)
 * falktx is proud
<falktx> btw, it seems that VST only works with C++, which sucks
<falktx> the keyboard is from FL Studio (thus non-free), so I have to find a replacement... :(
<ailo> falktx: The keys have wrong proportions on that too. The reason is because the black keys are all centered exactly between the white keys, which they aren't on a real keyboard.
<falktx> ailo: i never played a piano/midi-keyboard, so i didnt know
<ailo> falktx: The virtual keyboard that is included in the Ubuntu Repo has the right proportions
<falktx> is there any place to find audio knobs/sliders artwork ?
<falktx> ailo: vmpk?
<falktx> or vkeybd?
<ailo> vkeybd, at least. Not good looking, but correct
<ailo> Perhaps the black keys are just a little too wide.
<AutoStatic> Looks good falktx
<falktx> ailo: hehe, tell that to the company who mades them
<falktx> ailo: i think LMMS has some similar keys...
<falktx> AutoStatic: thanks, i'm really trying to make good-looking apps
 * falktx needs to learn CSS
<AutoStatic> CSS is quite simple.
<AutoStatic> Well simple
<falktx> AutoStatic: someday, I want to be able to this things like this - http://www.cusisdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lmms.jpg
<falktx> I know how to code stuff, I just need to know how to design them properly
<AutoStatic> Ah oh yeah, the Cusis stuff
<AutoStatic> Looks good
<falktx> we need someone with good design skills...
<persia> abogani, To be clear: if you say you think it's ready, I'll upload it that day.  Just tell me when.  Today works for me, or tomorrow, or whenever.
<holstein> so much work in the scroll back :)
<scott-work> true holstein, towards the end of natty release we probably need to discuss what we would like to accomplish and when :)
<holstein> yeah, a proper meeting 
<holstein> scott-work: im thinking just monthly
<holstein> just set one up
<holstein> im still not finding a better solution for posting meeting times for different time zones
<persia> UTC
<holstein> i did that twice
<holstein> with varying results
<holstein> well, it worked OK once
<persia> It's the best we have.  Not ideal, but...
<holstein> and the 2nd time, no body came
<holstein> persia: i was thinking the fridge
<holstein> im not totally sure what that looks like
<holstein> anyways, something regular will help
<holstein> "same time next month"
<holstein> persia: i think weekly would be overkill for us
<holstein> agreed?
<persia> Monthly to start sounds good to me.
<scott-work> agreed :)
<persia> But historically a good time for everyone else has been bad for me, so my opinion should carry very little weight in this.
<holstein> well, we wont be able to please everyone
<holstein> and theres no reason why you cant call a special meeting time if necessary persia 
<holstein> you or someone else that constantly has a conflict with the chosen time
<persia> I'm not worried about missing meetings.
<persia> I'll check the outcome, and complain if there's something that strikes me as very wrong.
<persia> I'll even try to check the agenda and complain in advance :)
<holstein> hehe ;)
<holstein> AutoStatic: can you remember what time of week we talked about
<holstein> that you would be available
<AutoStatic> AH yes
<holstein> im thinking a sunday
<holstein> is that where we landed?
<AutoStatic> I thought it was either saturday or sunday
<holstein> some sunday
<holstein> either 10am for you or me
<AutoStatic> And then in the afternoon
<holstein> i think
<AutoStatic> oh yeah 10am
<AutoStatic> That was it
<AutoStatic> 10am is fine
<holstein> AutoStatic: what time is it there?
<holstein> now?
<AutoStatic> 5pm
<holstein> OK
<holstein> let me acutally put something on my calendar this time
<holstein> hmmm
<AutoStatic> :)
<holstein> maybe it was the other way
<holstein> your 6 hours a head of me
<holstein> its 11am here
<holstein> SO that would be *early
<holstein> 10am your time
<holstein> how late int he afternoon is OK ?
<AutoStatic> As long as it's not in the evening here I'm ok
<holstein> lets say 10am my time
<holstein> would be 4pm for you right?
<AutoStatic> I'm always rehearsing on sunday evening
<holstein> thats good?
<AutoStatic> 4pm is good
<AutoStatic> so 10am your time
<holstein> cool
<persia> What is this UTC?
<holstein> i put it in my book
<holstein> and i'll try for the last sunday of the month
<holstein> regularly
<holstein> OR the first would be fine too
<holstein> persia: im +5?
<holstein> i think
<holstein> and its 10am
<holstein> does that sound right?
 * holstein looks online
<holstein> cant do it now... gotta run
<holstein> BUT its 10am EST
<persia> So, 5 UTC?  That's actually not a bad time for me, surprisingly :)
<persia> Oh, 15 UTC.  Yeah, that's less good (except today)
<AutoStatic> UTC  is one hour earlier
<scott-work> i highly recommend using this web page to help people with the time differences:  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=5&day=16&year=2010&hour=19&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
<scott-work> it gives many, many times local to many places around the world, and apparently most people can find a locale that is in their time zone to compare
<scott-work> hehe, awesome : http://www.fsf.org/facebook
<scott-work> note, this is NOT a pro-facebook link (if you are familiar wiht fsf you should have guessed that already)
<holstein> scott-work: is there an ubuntustudio wiki page about meetings?
<holstein> one that i can put some pre-converted times up
<holstein> and a link to possible agendas or archives
<scott-work> holstein: aye, it's: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings
<holstein> i'll edit that then
<holstein> and get something going
<scott-work> idea:  maybe we survey who really wants to be involved and query their habitually available times, make a matrix and see where teh most common overlap occours
<scott-work> occurs
<holstein> scott-work: is there a reason why we need to meet before march 6th?
<scott-work> holstein: don't think so, nothing critical that i can think of
<holstein> im going to go for that
<holstein> try this regularly for a bit
<holstein> a few months at least
<holstein> and go from there
<holstein> ive had some general 'when would be the best time for a meeting' queries
<scott-work> alpha 3 comes out march 3rd (my birthday!) but i don't think that should impact a meeting, 
<holstein> that have resulted in tumble weeds drifting through the mailing list
<scott-work> lol, but maybe we ask them on irc and put it to them
<scott-work> autostatic apparently has expressed interest
<scott-work> ailo as well
<holstein> this doesnt mean that someone else cant schedule a specific meeting
<scott-work> obviously you and i are in the mix
<holstein> i said that recently in a response on the email list
<holstein> just come here and ask you when you're available and schedule a meeting
<scott-work> holstein: well, no it doesn't but if we develop a good meeting time we can stick to it until there is a pressing need to change it
<holstein> yup
<holstein> IF we have a decent turn out for the first sunday of the month meetings
<holstein> we can leave that, and add others if needed
<holstein> to accomodate whatever
<scott-work> you have persia's thoughts on the meeting, i don't think that The.Muso really has either the time or the inclination at this point to attend, but it wouldn't hurt to ask him
<scott-work> the only other persia that immediate jumps to mind is stochastic, we can email him directly, if he responds then good, if not then we move on
<scott-work> maybe a few from the previous meetings like david and brian
<scott-work> tell you what, if you will follow up with ailo and autostatic i will email stochastic, david, brian, and anyone else from the previous meetings
<scott-work> that sound okay holstein?
<ailo> I'm available most of the time. The proposed time would work well for me
<holstein> sorry, phone... im back now
<holstein> ailo: cool
<holstein> so thats a go for ailo and autostatic
<holstein> i havent seen stochastic in a while
<holstein> scott-work: persia seems to be ok with it, and OK with not being able to be there
<holstein> we will have logs for sure
<holstein> and hopefully agendas in the near future
<scott-work> holstein: autostatic has been corresponding with brian david and i about the website stuff
<scott-work> he's somewhat involved, at least in that respect
<holstein> scott-work: cool, and that could be a totally seperate meeting
<holstein> as far as im concerned
<holstein> you guys could even do that privately if needed
<holstein> via email
<holstein> whatever it takes
<scott-work> i wouldn't mind if brian was the liason between us and the website "committee" and that brian attend regular meetings as well to report :)
<holstein> sure, i think it was brian that i replied to on the list
<scott-work> to be honest, i'm not really that involved with the website stuff at the moment, it's more brian (design) and eric (doing it) :P
<holstein> possibly with a bit of a tone ;)
<holstein> scott-work: i would be fine if brian/eric just report to you
<holstein> or whoever you appoint
<holstein> IF they cant make a regular meeting time
<scott-work> i would really like to try to encourage brian to take responsibility/ownership and attend the meeting
<scott-work> but if not, we can probably handle it by email and i'll attend the meeting anyway
<holstein> sure, i was encouraging him to pick the time that works for him
<holstein> BUT, its challenging
<holstein> with the TZ's
<holstein> and all the schedules
<holstein> i guess im just saying im about at the end of what i feel like im comfortable doing to try and negotiate a meeting time
<holstein> and not get frustrated
<holstein> not opposed to some polling though
<holstein> while thinking it over though, i decided that no one time is going to work for everyone
<holstein> and i think just being regular will help with the TZ's
<scott-work> very true
<persia> There are a couple times of day that are least bad for all folks.
<scott-work> holstein: which time do you have set currently? did you update the wiki already?
<persia> It really depends on where folk are located.
<holstein> scott-work: not yet
<holstein> let me get it UTC'd
<holstein> persia: and you can see if you think its one of those times as well
<ailo> scott-work: You said you needed a secretary of some sort. What exactly would that mean?
<holstein> OK
<holstein> http://5z8.info/orgy.avi_b6g6h_horse-slaughter
<holstein> shady url is at least 20% more fun than tiny URL :)
<holstein> 3pm UTC
<holstein> on a sunday
<holstein> thats probably not too bad
<holstein> scott-work: is this 9am for you right?
<holstein> scott-work: i'll tighten up the wiki and all that 2 weeks before whatever meeting time we land on
<holstein> if its the 6th, i should have time to procrastinate a bit, and still get everything looking right
<scott-work> ailo: just to keep up with team reports at the moment, maybe keep and publish minutes from the meetings
<scott-work> lol holstein, that's a crazy url
<holstein> bbl... gotta run again...
<scott-work> holstein: yeah, 9am on sunday morning
<persia> There's a low chance I can attend.  It's not safe to expect me, but if I happen to be up fairly late.
<scott-work> i have a window around that time approximately -3 hours and + 14 hours
<ailo> scott-work: paultag: Hope I'm not annoying you with these. I did another version. Just learning how to use Glade while I do it :).  http://imagebin.org/137225
<ailo> http://imagebin.org/137224
<ailo> http://imagebin.org/137226
<scott-work> lol, i love it ailo , kidna makes me jealous though, i should really look into learning glade as well
<scott-work> mine was done in inkscape and took an hour :/
<ailo> http://imagebin.org/137227
<ailo> This time I did a 4 page version, where the first page already takes care of everything for the lazy user.
<scott-work> ailo: i really like what you did, your divisions of items is way better than what i had :)
<scott-work> ailo: was it easy to get working with glade or did you have tutorial help you?
<persia> ailo, Rather than extras, might be good to target ubuntu-restricted-addons.  From what I understand, addons should be usable by anyone, but extras may not be legal for use for some number of people.
<paultag> ailo: hell yeah :)
<paultag> ailo: send me the glade when you have a chance
<persia> I'm also fairly certain that we won't get a realtime kernel in Natty.  Maybe for Natty+1: it really depends on some documentation being available and RT upstream activity.  Currently kernels < 2.6.35 don't do very well with Natty.
<ailo> scott-work: I didn't follow any tutorial, but it's pretty straight forward, I think. I don't really have an opinion about the extras.
<scott-work> persia: we were considering placing latest stable -rt kernel into a ubuntustudio PPA to be installed
<scott-work> persia:  are you aware of any objections to this?
<scott-work> this would mean that the -rt kernel would not necessarily be aligned with whatever curent kernel is released
<persia> I'm not happy about having tools that enable PPAs and install stuff from them without making this very clear to the user.
<persia> My warning is more that there are some parts of userspace that are expecting 2.6.35+, and so older kernels may end up having odd behaviours.
<paultag> thanks, ailo!
<ailo> persia: So, if we add a popup that explains about the PPA and requires the user to accept, would that be ok?
<persia> Less bad.  If you do implement that, please use the appropriate APIs in software-center, etc.
<ailo> scott-work: About those extras. I haven't really looked at that at all. You think some of those packages are illegal in some countries?
<scott-work> ailo: i belive them to be illegal in some countries, canonical seems to agree with it as well
<scott-work> agree that they are not exactly legal in some countries
<ailo> scott-work: Ubuntu isn't exactly warning the user when installing those packages, but we could of course do that.
<ailo> scott-work: I don't really have any other opinion about the addons and extras, other than that I would like it to include everything if possible. 
<scott-work> oh, i agree but i also like how you broke it out to install all or pick the ones you want
<ailo> Even running the libdvdcss2 would be nice. 
<ailo> scott-work: Maybe the way I broke it down is not logical, I haven't investigated. 
<ailo> At least I can see the point in having "absolutely legal" and "maybe legal" in two separate tasks
<scott-work> ailo: it certainly wouldn't be bad to point out and maybe divide the applications between the two while explaining the difference
<scott-work> it certianly would be good to explain that it's the user's responisibilty to make sure what he/she is installing is legal in his/her country
<scott-work> hopefully though if we align ourselves with ubuntu/canonical's methodologies then we should be okay
<scott-work> ailo: i think exploring how the software-center handles it might be good as well
<ailo> scott-work: This is the key phrase. Same text in Synaptic and SoftwareCenter "Please also note that packages from multiverse are restricted by copyright or legal issues in some countries."
<scott-work> good deal :)
<scott-work> ailo: can you work with paultag and explain what each button is intended to accomplish?  this way he knows _exactly_ what he has to code
<scott-work> ailo: if not i can do it
<ailo> scott-work: I can do that
<ailo> scott-work: I've been thinking of how we could make a scheme about each button. I would rather not decide on the actual text used, so someone else could help with that. Text for notifiers and popups mainly
<ailo> paultag: Whatever you need, just ask
<paultag> ailo: you got it!
<paultag> ailo: I really dig that layout, almost identical to what i was thinking in my head
<paultag> ailo: well done, really. Well done
<ailo> paultag: Thank you
<ailo> paultag: I could prepare some text on what each button should do, what happens when you push them for tomorrow, if that's ok.
<paultag> ailo: that would rock
<paultag> ailo: I'm going to work on generic code, nothing will touch the glade
<ailo> paultag: Ok. I'll get back to you tomorrow, then.
<paultag> ailo: I can actually work with what you have now, and then update alongside with you, if you swear to not change names :)
<paultag> ailo: roger! You're already doing wonders better then a "pro" interface designer :)
<paultag> ailo: did you see the *crap* I was sent?
<ailo> paultag: The glade file is missing a lot in terms of names, I think, so I'd rather edit what you use
<ailo> No, didn't see it.
<paultag> ailo: someone had the balls to send me this -- http://i.imgur.com/jCwTv.png
<paultag> ailo: I was livid
<scott-work> lol paultag, i notice the user in the upper right corner ;)
<paultag> scott-work: :)
<ailo> paultag: You will probably want to use your own naming schemes, so that's also why I only edited the names that you see
<paultag> ailo: OK. I'll take a look down the tree. My guess is that it will be perfect for our 1.0 deadline
<paultag> ailo: it's about getting it working and making it work right ( but not more ;) )
<ailo> paultag: But, changing the visual text should be no problem, right? Shouldn't affect your coding at all, I think
<paultag> scott-work: can you believe that shitty design?
<paultag> ailo: yeah, no problem there!
<scott-work> ailo: one thing we probably should add to your gui is to add a place to adjust the memlock, there is a reason for it
<macinnisrr1> that's a great screenshot. ;-)
<paultag> ailo: I access stuff by their names, and I won't be mucking around with text much, I'll just be setting callbacks on buttons
<paultag> macinnisrr1: dude, I was not happy with that at all
<ailo> scott-work: Why change memlock?
<scott-work> right now there is discussion that between qjackctl/jack and ardour they are confusing users by suggesting two different memlock settings
<paultag> macinnisrr1: I could not believe someone sent that rather then saying "no" or "I can't"
<macinnisrr1> paultag: no shit.
<paultag> macinnisrr1: How are you today?
<scott-work> ailo: one is suggested unlimited and the other is suggesting some number dervied ffrom a percentage of your available memory
<macinnisrr1> paultag: not bad, you?
<paultag> macinnisrr1: not too bad, thanks!
<paultag> ailo: We can abstract that pretty well. If I can get this running in 3 days or so ( This weekend is hack-factor-5 ), we can fine tune it to 1.0 in time for freeze
<paultag> sorry scott-work *
<paultag> also ailo 
<ailo> scott-work: I heard about rtprio having to be 95 for some reason, which it is
<paultag> scott-work: worst comes to worst, we file a few RC bugs against ubutnu studio and have the upload close them. We can play that game ;)
<scott-work> lol paultag that's true
<scott-work> ailo: i think setting rtprio so 95 is pretty well established (at least i haven't heard people compliaing about it) so we should be good setting this "blindly"
<paultag> ailo: you're my dude, man! Rock on!
<ailo> ScottL: Now, I noticed, there's a new file in /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf, Installed by the ubuntustudio-audio package
<scott-work> ailo: really?!?  hmmmm, that's strange and a little frightening :(
<ailo> scott-work: It has @audio   -  rtprio     99, instead of 95
<scott-work> ailo: by the way, here's the email i was talking about http://old.nabble.com/sanitycheck.c-is-still-confusing-the-hell-out-of-people-td30728534.html
<ailo> That's all it does
<scott-work> ailo: i might download that package and grep for that later this weekend
<macinnisrr1> Say, I've been wondering if UbuntuStudio would  be interested in an updated UI. I develop Dream Studio, which currently uses a monochrome version of Ambiance, as well as a dark version of the same. Since UbuntuStudio and KXStudio both use blue themes, I've been wondering if either of these projects would be interested in using a version of DreamStudio's themes, but with blue highlights. I'm very much interested in u
<paultag> scott-work: sounds like your que! :)
<macinnisrr1> I've just proposed the same question to the KXStudio devs
<scott-work> ailo: obviously we should understand where it came from and why they thought is was needed, but we should really avoid trying to confuse rtprio by establishing it in two places
<scott-work> macinnisrr1: abosultely!!
<paultag> macinnisrr1: do you have a link, I'd really like to play with it, if you don't mind :)
<scott-work> macinnisrr1: it's interesting you mentioned doing this, i got this link last night:  http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875
<scott-work> macinnisrr1: ubuntu studio could REALLY use someone on the art and/or theme side of things
<paultag> +1 scott-work 
<ailo> scott-work: I only installed the Ubuntustudio-audio package recently. Don't know why I didn't before, so I don't know when it appeared there. I would remove that file from that package, since jackd already takes care of that, and let -controls edit or replace it, if needed
<macinnisrr1> paultag, scott-work: My themes for Lucid and Maverick had some kinks to work out, which are now fixed but only on my home computer. I'll post here as soon as I've got something ready to look at.
<paultag> macinnisrr1: outstanding
<macinnisrr1> BTW, a consistent UI (which is as close to stock ubuntu as possible), was one of the main reasons I began Dream Studio (the others were branding and newer packages.
<macinnisrr1> would you guys consider adding a button to that dialog that adds audio ppas (autostatic and kxstudio)? That could really open up a lot of possiblities for new/additional software that didn't make it to UbuntuStudio by release time.
<scott-work> macinnisrr1:  there has been discussion aobut that very topic, but we feel that this exposes dangers for new users and experienced users can do this easily enough 
<scott-work> macinnisrr1: but i think we all look forward to seeing whatever you have when you have it ready to look at
<macinnisrr1> scott-work: understandable.
<macinnisrr1> I'll keep you posted. Peace out for now...
<ailo> scott-work: I think there are two files in the ubuntustudio-audio package that are not needed. The /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf, and /usr/share/ubuntustudio-audio/rtprio.py
<scott-work> hmmm, we might query persia and TheMuso if they remember anything about these files ^^^
<scott-work> ailo: it mgiht be an old fix, maybe 2 generations ago, i.e. before the current and /etc/security/limits.d/limits.conf
<ailo> scott-work: Yea, I think so too. Before jackd started shipping audio.conf perhaps?
<scott-work> paultag: was the +1 for the theme link i posted?   if so, i totally agree, i think this looks tight:  http://ubuntu-art.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=132875&file1=132875-1.PNG&file2=132875-2.jpg&file3=132875-3.jpg&name=Ambiance+dark
<paultag> scott-work: yeah, man. I really dig the icons, I think that looks sharp as all hell
<ailo> scott-work: Why not pimp up on the ambiance theme? I like dark themes, but so many of them are not very functional. 
<paultag> scott-work: I also +1'd the we need an art guy
<scott-work> paultag: yeah we do, i think it's historically been difficult to find someone to do it 
<scott-work> ailo: i agree, i agree wholeheartedly
<paultag> scott-work: +1. There's a huge gap between nerds and graphic design folk
<scott-work> ailo: one of my concerns is that i fear that cory really got into the plumbing on the theme and i'm not really sure that it will be too easy to change things
<scott-work> this doesn't mean that i don't want to because i really, really do (espeically seeing that screenshot)
<ailo> scott-work: I wouldn't mind UbuntuStudio to be more similar to Ubuntu in design, especially since the Ambiance theme kind of rocks.
<scott-work> ailo: lol, yeah, their designs are getting much better, maybe we should ask someone from canonical if we could borrow a designer or two ;)
<ailo> scott-work: It would make things easier on us, if we were just to tweak that a little bit. 
<scott-work> ailo: i'm not sure about that, cory did a lot of plumbing with gconf and we might need to touch quite a few packages to make it all work
<scott-work> but maybe not, i'm just basing this on a few files that i've seen
<scott-work> but we could certainly add this to the upcoming discussions for improvements for next release :)
<scott-work> if we had the commitment from individuals to help work through it then i would absolutely like to work through it
<persia> ailo, scott-work: the audio.conf and rtprio.py stuff is something which diwic is better asked about.
<persia> Last I knew, the remaining work was 1) add memlock support to rtkit (or create memkit), and 2) make JACK use rtkit (and memkit, if created).
<ailo> persia: But, then the files will not be needed anyway, right? If using rtkit and memkit..
<persia> Right.  If diwic completes his spec, the files aren't needed.  If he runs out of time, the files may be needed.
<persia> Depends how much time he has, really.
<persia> Of course, if anyone wants to help, I'm sure he'd appreciate it.
<ailo> persia: But, I don't think we need those files now, even, since jackd provides rtprio and memlock with /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<ailo> The package jackd, that is
<persia> Ah, maybe we don't need them in ubuntustudio-controls then, and diwic's spec lets us drop that file from jackd
<ailo> persia: jackd includes an installation script which provides that file, if the user chooses to have rt or not. We will also add that file through the new -controls, if not already there.
<scott-work> let's be clear though, jack provides a different file that sets rtprio than ubuntustudio-audio, which sets rtprio in a different file
<scott-work> according to what ailo has stated
<ailo> True
<persia> The issue is that the way that jackd does it isn't very secure.  It grants rights to users who oughtn't have them, and fails to grant rights to users who ought have them.
<persia> It also forces us to retain the "audio" group, which is dropped everywhere else, and actively deprecated in an increasing volume of documentation.
<ailo> persia: Yes, but until we get rtkit going, we don't have any choice, right?
<persia> Right.
<persia> Point being that this change is dependent on diwic's spec, and we ought be following that, rather than just adding stuff.
<scott-work> ailo: it seems that it wouldn't be too much change to the default "dark ambience" them to make it look like the previously linked theme according to this page:  http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/new-ubuntu-1004-light-and-dark-themes.html
<scott-work> ailo: looking at the 2nd picture
<persia> It may be that we want ubuntustudio-controls to do something slightly different than it does now, depending on how much progress diwic makes.
<persia> But he doesn't tend to idle in this channel, so has to be hunted down.
<ailo> ScottL: Do you have his email? David Henningsson / diwic
<scott-work> sent it pm
<scott-work> just putting this into the channel for record:  Faenza icons
<rlameiro> hi there
<rlameiro> hi ScottL 
<ailo> hey rlameiro
<rlameiro> hey ailo, how is it going
<rlameiro> I was making more tests on the alpha... its looking bad for my side...
<ailo> I started a test patch on puredata, yesterday I think, but it seems the -generic kernel changes a lot perfomance-wise, so I didn't continue on the patch
<rlameiro> I think i need to buy an external ti chipset Firewire board
<rlameiro> really?
<rlameiro> well, i need to update then
<ailo> periodic xruns?
<rlameiro> a lot of Xruns and a lot of little ones too
<rlameiro> pd has a lot of crackles
<ailo> No matter which period/buffer?
<ailo> Do you get good performance with an -rt kernel?
<ailo> and rtirq script
<rlameiro> ailo: with rt it improves but not too much
<rlameiro> thats what i need to know
<ailo> What chip is it?
<ailo> The firewire chip, that is
<rlameiro> how does rtirq work on ubuntustudio?
<rlameiro> RICOH.....
<ailo> Doesn't work without an -rt kernel
<ScottL> hi rlameiro 
<rlameiro> aon board, probably with shared IRQ
<ailo> I guess it's because of ricoh, then. Heard very bad things about it
<rlameiro> ScottL: hey, not beeing a good tester....
<rlameiro> ScottL: we should make some kind of hardware recommendations on release notes
<ailo> rlameiro: rtirq script should take care of irq share problems
<rlameiro> but do I need to runn it?
<rlameiro> wasnt he on a rule somewhere?
<rlameiro> like it would run when some FW device is plugged or something?
<rlameiro> I remeber someone talking about it, not sure if it was an idea tough...
<ailo> the rtirq scrip is available as a package. You should try with a distro that has -rt kernel and rtirq script together
<ailo> puredyne should be fine to test
<ailo> The rtirq script is run at bootup. Not sure about the details
<rlameiro> I will take a look into Ubuntustudio
<ailo> It gives higher prio to audio devices
<rlameiro> well, then i need to have the interface connected at boot time...
<ailo> But, it will only work with an -rt kernel
<rlameiro> yes i know that
<ailo> Not with -lowlatency
<ailo> I don't think you need to have the device connected at boot time, but I'm not sure. 
<rlameiro> well, either way, i want to run it on ubuntu studio...
<ailo> Lucid has realtime kernel, right?
<ailo> puredyne uses the same kernel as ubuntustudio karmic
<ailo> puredyne 910 and 911, that is
<rlameiro> I still have 9.10 for hardcore pd usage...
<ailo> You probably have rtirq installed on that. The package is called rtirq-init
<ScottL> rlameiro, sorry, just got home, catching up with backscroll
<rlameiro> ScottL: np
<rlameiro> ailo: yes i have
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-11
<ScottL> rlameiro, there is still quite a bit of work going on with the kernel i believe
<ScottL> rlameiro, i've been having troubles myself and i really hope the solve them soon :P
<rlameiro> ScottL: well, maybe we should not post that testing untill stff is more stable
<rlameiro> and continue to make test internally and look at them..
<ailo> rlameiro: Don't think your firewire problems are related, though
<ailo> But, the variation in test results is interesting. Just a week ago, I was getting the same results from generic as from -lowlatency
<rlameiro> ailo: yea, i need to do an update test again
<rlameiro> i also tested it with 8x8 channels
 * persia is amused at the use of "internally" for a transparent public project
<rlameiro> 6 in channels where quiet but still it is a stress
<rlameiro> persia: internally as not a definitive result :D
<rlameiro> persia: not as obscure :D
<rlameiro> this channel is public with logs :D
<persia> I know.  I'm still amused.  Even though everything we do here and on the mailing list is public, it's still "internal" in a sense.
 * ScottL wonders how many people come here and read through the logs or the emails
<rlameiro> I do sometimes :D
<rlameiro> 1 for me :D
<persia> Lots of folk likely subscribe to the mailling list, or read the archives.
<persia> Most of the folk who read the IRC logs are probably at least occasionally active here, or on the mailing list.
<astraljava> Sooo.... wonder if Canonical could use a guy with some C++ and Qt skills? Looks like I'm gonna run out of work soon...
<abogani> astraljava: https://tbe.taleo.net/NA3/ats/careers/searchResults.jsp;jsessionid=E22F4015F5C1F74559120C79A16C04F0.NA3_primary_jvm?org=CANONICAL&cws=1
<astraljava> abogani: Thanks! Way cool of you. :D
<abogani> astraljava: :-)
<ailo> abogani: You heard persia, right? Is the kernel getting into the repos now?
<ailo> The -generic is nowhere near good for audio right now. 
<abogani> ailo: Right. I'll double-check it this weekend. In any case I'm not sure that it is the right thing to do.
<ailo> abogani: Why are you not sure?
<ailo> I don't know what is going on with the -generic kernel, but until we can get a garantee that it will be able to do reliable low latency work, I would hold on to -lowlatency.
<ailo> -lowlatency is the right technical term, but I wouldn't mind calling it -multimedia and let it be a multimedia alternative to the -generic, as long as the -generic is not able to provide the same performance.
<persia> That would be unfortunate.  There are many "multimedia" use cases where it's probably not appropriate.
<ailo> persia: Like what?
<persia> like watching youtube
<persia> remember, "multimedia" is a *big* word.
<ailo> It is. You mean flash is not as fast with -lowlatency?
<persia> Should make no difference at all.  Might cause a (very small) decrease in battery time if I'm watching youtube on a portable device.
<ailo> It uses up more power, right?
<persia> A little bit.
<persia> Depends on what you're doing, really.
<persia> If you're mostly idle, it will use more power.  If you're using your machine hard, it makes no difference at all, and may even save some power.
<persia> watching youtube is mostly idle for most recent devices.
<ailo> Maybe we should add some info about that for the user
<persia> Hardly anyone cares.
<ailo> For me, watching flash uses up most of my CPU. But that's because the graphic card is not working with it, right?
<ailo> Without drivers I can't even watch some videos full screen
<persia> The only people who care are those who need low latency for some reason (audio or video production, audio/video streaming on insufficient HW, telephony switching, etc.)
<persia> That's unrelated.  You aren't likely to notice difference there between -lowlatency and -generic
<abogani> indeed
<ailo> For audio low latency is needed as soon as you do something live. Play a virtual instrument, monitor while recording, or as I do, live processing
<persia> No it isn't.
<ailo> For audio/video, I don't know
<persia> It's needed for doing what you say under certain combinations of system load and driver quality.
<ailo> I can't very well play a virtual instrument, if there is an audible delay
<ailo> For me it's totally based around human perception limitations
<ailo> And -lowlatency nails it.
<ailo> I mean, there's even a little room beyond that limitation
<persia> Sure.  But the difference in delay between the average -generic kernel and the average -lowlatency kernel depends heavily on the load on your system (both raw CPU load, and context-switch count), the specific IO hardware you have, and the raw performance of your equipment/
<ailo> After my recent testing, the difference is huge
<persia> -lowlatency does better at higher system loads, or with buggier drivers.
<ailo> -generic is not anywhere near acceptable right now
 * persia is talking in general "right now" is ephemeral
<ailo> Can someone garantee that -generic will be able to perform as well as -lowlatency
<ailo> For me -lowlatency is a safe bet. I was surprised to see that the -generic performed as well for a little while. I have no idea why, and why it is not doing that now.
<persia> There are no guarantees.  This is free software and a volunteer project.
<ailo> Then, for the sake reliability, I at least would want to keep the -lowlatency as an audio alternative in the repos.
<persia> keep?  I'd like to put it in the repos, but will only do that if the maintainer wishes, as otherwise it will bitrot.
<ailo> Well, put then :)
<ailo> I don't know much about the work that goes into maintaining the kernel and how things work over at Canonical. I would think that -lowlatency would be useful, not only to Ubuntu/UbuntuStudio, but also to all other distros (and specifically audio distros) based on Ubuntu. So, from my ignorant point of view, I think the -lowlatency should go in.
<persia> Maintaining a kernel is a lot of work.  It's one of the most active, fast-paced, and confusing open source projects out there.
<persia> I'm not sure what Canonical has to do with anything in this context.
<scott-work> abogani: we spoke earlier about someone learning to compile the -lowlatency kernel and i am still interested in learning to do so
<abogani> scott-work: Ok. Start cloning my git repos from kernel.ubuntu.com/git.
<scott-work> abogani:  apparently because of the differences in our time zones this may be a slow process :P
<scott-work> abogani: i will do that tonight at home when i expect you will be asleep :)
<scott-work> abogani: but bear witness, this is something that i will peservere and see to completion
<abogani> scott-work: Could you recall your TZ to me?
<scott-work> i am central US, in the state of texas
<scott-work> abogani: ^^^
<scott-work> abogani: i recall that you are in Italy but i don't know where geographically whithin her
<abogani> scott-work: I'm in central too. I was born in Prato 17 km near Florence (Tuscany).
<scott-work> abogani: i meant that i am in CST time zone, my apologies, in the US using the term "central" is interchangable with CST
<abogani> scott-work: So it is incredibly early at you.
<scott-work> abogani: i prefer to be at work at 6:30 am so that i may work undisturbed by colleagues, as supervisor i receive significant interruptions
<abogani> scott-work: Understand.
<scott-work> abogani: but please don't take that to mean that i consider talking to you (or anyone on this channel) as an "interruption" :)
<scott-work> if i did so then i wouldn't log into IRC ;)
<abogani> scott-work: ;-)
<scott-work> does anyone also know of a good guide for creating themes? i would really like to understand some basics before we begin to make significant changes to the ubuntustudi-theme package
<abogani> scott-work: In any case I want you know that updating (that is the maintenance) of -lowlatency kernel is very trivial. 3 commands for ubuntu-natty-meta-lowlatency and 5 for ubuntu-natty-lowlatency.
<persia> (plus lots of testing, bug tracking, etc.)
<scott-work> abogani: wow, that really is insignificant!
<scott-work> but my personality prohibits me from trying to do something without having some generalized understanding of what is happening
<abogani> persia: touche :-)
<scott-work> when i do something i like to understand what it should be doing and how it affects other things
<scott-work> which i suppose aligns with what persia said as well :P
<persia> abogani, You may have scripted things so resync is quick, but I know it's a fair bit of work to keep the kernels working.
<abogani> persia: Kernels don't change significantly after release so we have a good chance that -lowlatency still in good still working.
<abogani> argghhhh
 * abogani needs coffe
<persia> abogani, heh, except for all the SRUs.  Seems there's one every couple weeks.
<scott-work> abogani:  i belive it is approximately 3:30 pm on Friday for you.  is that correct?
<scott-work> if so then you are +7 hours in relation to me
<scott-work> that's not as bad as i thought had originally thought
<abogani> scott-work: Exactly
<ailo> scott-work: I will gladly take the lead on the Theme design, as long as we try keep it as trivial as possible. I have already learned some about GTK themes and Metacity.
<scott-work> ailo:  were you heavily involved in something else?  dont' overload yourself
 * scott-work apologizes for not remembering but work has gotten rather involved and time constrained today
<ailo> scott-work: Not really. I'm focused on the -controls right now, but theming is always fun as relaxation ;)
<ailo> scott-work: Here's the scheme for the ubuntustudio-controls I sent to paultag. http://paste.ubuntu.com/565935/
<ailo> I updated the extra section
<ailo> I'm looking into the memlock thing, to find out if there is any reason to edit that.
<ailo> I'm also looking into the possibility of choosing which type of kernel to boot by default. After a quick look, it seems this needs to be done by adding a custom script to Grub
<scott-work> ailo: i'm running home now, i'll look at it there in about an hour
<ailo> ScottL: After reading more about memlock, some suggest that it is dangerous to use unlimited memlock. The amount of ram needed seems to be related to the software in use, but I guess using 75-80% would be a good thumb rule?
<ailo> As default
<ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure about the memlock amount for two reasons; 1) "upstream" is still discussing it and 2) it might depend on how much memory you have in your machine
<ScottL> e.g. some might recommend unlimited, but for a computer with less memory, say 512meg or even perhaps 1gig on certain systems, you may not want unlimited
<ScottL> therefore i feel like some users might still need to adjust their memlocks settings
<ailo> ScottL: Im pretty sure its about how much you need to run programs, however percent-wise, it will differ when having little or much memory
<ScottL> now perhaps this is a fringe use case, and not even within two standard deviations from the typical
<ScottL> maybe we should send an email to the jack-devel mailist list and ask for their "expert" opinions
<ailo> ScottL: I'm for adding a control. Just adding some info too, that explains what is useful to use, and what could be dangerous.
<ailo> Default values: rtprio 95, memlock 75%
<ScottL> ailo, that sounds good :)
<ScottL> also ailo please keep in mind to implement a new theme will require more that just developing or designing it, we will need to make sure it is build and installed during the image building process
<ScottL> that later part for the current theme is where i have concerns about removing or modifying those parts for the new theme
<ailo> ScottL: I wouldn't mind learning about that too. If we do something drastic for this release, it would have to be simple to do.
<ailo> ScottL: I know a little about packaging, but don't have a lot of practical experience.
<ScottL> sometimes i sound like such a naysayer :(
<ailo> ScottL: Paul Davis says there's no danger in using memlock unlimited.
<ailo> ScottL: I can not find one clear case where memlock would have been a definitive problem. Also, rtprio should not be changed either, I think. Right now, I'm thinking there's no need to add controls for those. 
<ScottL> hi rlameiro  :)
<rlameiro> hi ScottL :D
<ScottL> ailo, that sounds good, if it does every become a problem we can always update the package
<ScottL> rlameiro, did you ever get an install to work correctly?
 * ScottL is taking a break from recording music for the rpm challenge :)
<ScottL> rlameiro, and what was your install methodology?  "upgrade" from vanilla ubuntu or use the dvd for full, fresh install
<rlameiro> ScottL: fresh install
<rlameiro> manual partitioning
<ScottL> did it work for you?  are you able to record?
<ScottL> i remember you saying you were having trouble with xruns
<rlameiro> yeap, i have a lot of them
<rlameiro> i think i really need an RT kernel to have somewhat reliable session using Firewire
<rlameiro> with my chipset
<ScottL> rlameiro, is this a different computer than you used before?
<ScottL> rlameiro, or did you previously use an -rt kernel when you didn't get xruns?
<ScottL> what is different this time?
<ScottL> besides the xruns, of course :)
<rlameiro> I used a RT kernel before
<rlameiro> karmic
<ScottL> ah!
<rlameiro> so i think it is really related to this
<ScottL> i think holstein was rocking the -lowlatency kernel into insanely low latencies
<rlameiro> low latency doesnt solve firewire issues unless you have a TI chipset...
<ailo> But you said you had problems with -rt too, right?
<ScottL> you might try it before going to -rt
<rlameiro> ailo: not as much as lowlatency
<rlameiro> on RT i had like 2 Xruns an hour
<ailo> Ive heard bad things about the ricoh chip
<ScottL> i think i will spend some time talking to rnbc next week to understand more about his rtirq package
<ailo> But, if the problem is solved with -rt and rtirq, then there is probably an issue with irq sharing. rtirq will only work with -rt
<rlameiro> yep, my firewire chipset has a lot of shared IRQ
<ScottL> ailo, sorry, i just now checked my mail and read your email to jack-dev list, good job and paul answered!  kinda like rubbing elbows with royalty :P
 * ScottL is going back upstairs to record some vocals and maybe another guitar track
<ailo> I spent some time talking with ffado people about irq sharing. They said the problem should be solved by the people developing drivers for linux. Graphic drivers and such. I'm not sure about the details, but it seems hard to get away from the problem with irq sharing on vanilla / generic kernels right now.
<ailo> The problem is mainly on laptops too. 
<rlameiro> well, i am on laptop :(
<ScottL> rlameiro, i liked your answer to the alesis question on the mailing list..."why are you using OSS?"   LOL
<ScottL> i'm pretty happy with the rest of my tool chain for guitars, bass, drums...but not my vocals, i'm still struggling with that :(
<rlameiro> ScottL: right isnt it?
<ScottL> rlameiro, i believe so!
<ScottL> but there are those who would argue that OSS should be preferred over ALSA
<ScottL> but then again, for those with hardware that only works with OSS, can we argue that it isn't needed ?
<rlameiro> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2011/02/the-79-virtual-analog-console-now-on-both-mac-and-linux-harrison-mixbus/#comment-1215247
<rlameiro> ScottL: hey :D PipeManMusic show me this
<rlameiro> http://www.harrisonconsoles.com/mixbus/Linux_screen_1.png
<rlameiro> its ubuntu studio
<ScottL> i saw that rlameiro from my rss feed, it looks fooking awesome, doesn't it
<rlameiro> ScottL: yes :D
<ScottL> [lsd] in the #opensourcemusicians channel was helping me with qtractor and midi...he freaking rocks too :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-12
<rlameiro> ScottL: yea, [lsd] rocks, he is awesome with synths an stuff
<ScottL> there seems to be a lot of excitement about mixbus, but i wonder how many from our community will buy it?
<holstein> o/
<ailo> ScottL: About possible outdated or unwanted packages in UbuntuStudio. Where could we list those up?
<ailo> Right now I'm thinking of padevchooser and pavucontrol
<ScottL> ailo,  i think avucontrol is still needed, isn't it?
<ScottL> or maybe not
<ScottL> i have had to use it but that was when i had onboard, SB, and delta 44 audio
<ScottL> i would have to tell pulse to route audio to the sound blaster from youtube or rhythmbox or whatnot
<ScottL> but that might have been just because i had 3 audio interfaces, which is not a typical use case i would imagine :P
<ailo> ScottL: I haven't installed UbuntuStudio from DVD, so I don't have the original settings. I would think that there's no need for Pavucontrol since it only opens up "Sound Preferences" from the Volume control in the indicator area
<ailo> And padevchooser is not starting at all
<ailo> Both of those packages I think belong to an earlier version of PA
<ailo> delta 44 is probably not working with PA. At least it didn't the last time I checked. I have delta-66 and delta-1010 (same chips), and they won't work with PA without some tweaking with config files
<ailo> What's up rlameiro?
<rlameiro> hey
<rlameiro> just booted directly into irc :D
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> it is a saved session on kxstudio :D
<ailo> A Desktop session? What program do you use for that?
<rlameiro> well, dont know
<rlameiro> it just started Konversation
<rlameiro> i assume it saved my last session
<rlameiro> but i dont really get KDE so i am not sure
<ailo> I always want to try KDE and I want to like it, but it never happens..
<ailo> I think one thing I don't like is all the programs starting with K.
<ailo> Shouldn't be a factor, but still
<ailo> btw, I find that the latest -lowlatency is performing slightly less reliably than before.
<persia> re: pavucontrol and friends: if they aren't working, we ought fix them.  The GNOME mixer presumes you want to use all your devices by default, but JACK users tend to have multiple, specialised, audio interfaces.
<persia> Without these tools (or replacements), either the user must completely disable desktop sounds, or potentially end up with issues related to interface choice.
<persia> The issue with the delta-* devices is due to the flexibility of the ICE1712 (and ICE1724) chipsets: the current drivers don't have enough information to be able to determine the mixing and select an appropriate channel map to feed JACK.
<ailo> persia: I don't understand. I don't see any use for those tools. I have multiple sound cards.
<ailo> persia: Yes, I've been told there needs to be some work done on the Alsa end to get those cards working with PA.
<persia> The use case is wanting to not disable pulse when you run JACK when you have multiple cards, and not have the desktop sounds feed through something like pulseaudio-module-jack
<ailo> persia: qjackctl disables PA, but not jackd. I can run jackd with one cards, while PA is still running on another card
<persia> The issue is with ALSA, but more complicated: different interface makers map the ICE17xx cards sufficiently differently there isn't a sane default.  Needs investigation and quirking, and after that, still perhaps defaults to the less ideal place.
<persia> ailo, Let me guess: you have one audio interface that is PCI or USB, and another that is firewire.
<ailo> No, all either pci or builtin
<persia> And they don't all get grabbed by pulse by default?  Is one ICE17xx-based?
<ailo> hmm, let me do a quick test
<persia> If you're running pulse, it *should* attempt to control and route to all your devices by default.
<persia> pavucontrol and pavudevchooser are supposed to let you work around that.
<ailo> persia: I just played a youtube video with a Soundblaster pci card while using jack and puredata with builtin HDA Intel
<persia> With default settings: no special configuration for either of them?
<ailo> No configurations made
<persia> Hmm.  Well, maybe we don't need those anymore.  The rationale above is *why* they were there.
<ailo> Also, jackd disables pulseaudio when using the same card (in Maverick jack would fail to start)
<persia> Well, why they were still there.  They were originally there because pulse was kinda cool, and pulse simply didn't work for many years without them.
<persia> Right.  The new jack/pulse negotiation in natty may make them no longer required.
<ailo> Pulse has two programs in System menu: "Sound", and "Pulseaudio Preferences"
<persia> Still nifty tools for doing things like slinging pulse over the network, etc., but that's separate.
<persia> "Sound" is the GNOME Mixer, which also configures pulse.
<persia> "Pulseaudio Preferences" is part of the same suite that provides pavucontrol.
<ailo> Maybe that is the replacement?
<persia> "replacement" isn't quite correct.
<persia> But it may be enough.  Send a mail to the list asking for opinions, etc.  See if anyone has a critical use case for the PA UI suite that isn't handled in another way in natty.
<ailo> It has network options and virtual outputs on all sound cards. I remember those features from before, but not where they used to be
<ailo> If someone would have needed the padevchooser, I think someone would have mailed about it already. I'm not sure, but I think it wasn't working already in Lucid/Maverick. Somewhere around there.
<ailo> I know I haven't needed to use it for a while. I'm also thankful that PA has stopped crashing as it always used to do ;)
<ailo> Just works now.
<persia> Sounds like it might not be needed anymore.  I just like to ask folk.
<persia> I once tried to drop one of mixxx or terminatorx, and ended up with a long mail thread explaining, in detail, why they were different tools and both essential.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-13
<Lomion> I have heard that Unity is not released under the GPL.
<Lomion> Does this mean that Ubuntu is becoming less free?
<holstein> hey Lomion 
<Lomion> hi
<holstein> ubuntustudio is not planning on adopting unity anytime soon
<holstein> lets not go on what we've 'heard' though
<holstein> let me see if i can dig up the license on unity
<Lomion> I'm doing the same.
<holstein> ubuntu is not really an exclusive 'open source' project though
<ailo_at> Unity is subject to Canonical's contributor agreement, requiring contributors to assign copyright to Canonical, and potentially allowing Canonical to release it under a different license
<ailo_at> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28desktop_environment%29
<holstein> free as in you dont have to pay for it
<ailo_at> This is the license, I believe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical%27s_contributor_agreement
<ailo_at> Ever heard of open core? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_core
<holstein> not yet
 * holstein looking
<ailo_at> Seems like MySQL has a similar license
<holstein> ubuntu never really set out to be 'free'
<Lomion> That's what I thought. I don't like that Canonical can claim ownership of contributed code.
<holstein> just a viable desktop platform
<holstein> eh, you can choose not to contribute to that project
<persia> Um, careful.
<persia> Unity *is* GPL.
<holstein> im ok with it as long as its not hidden
<persia> But upstream doesn't accept patches unless someone signs an agreement.
<persia> OpenOffice used to do that, and now there is LibreOffice.
<persia> No idea if that will happen with Unity, but don't fear it just because of that, unless you have a patch that you don't want to give to upstream, and can't get applied any other way.
<holstein> persia: you think this is more for quality control?
<persia> I don't speculate as to why upstream has that condition.
<persia> But I don't think it's appropriate to claim that it's not GPL when it is.
<holstein> hehe, thats a safe answer :)
<Lomion> persia: exactly.
<persia> Lomion, And to address your other concern: Ubuntu isn't any less free, nor is it likely to get that way (if nothing else, it would break commitments to mirror providers).
<persia> That it may be slightly more difficult to send patches upstream for some packages is also nothing new: we've been dealing with that with firefox for a long time, and have similar issues with other packages.
<Lomion> I've been reading 
<Lomion> That's true. I've been reading a lot about Canonical's contributor agreement, and also about their eventual adoption of Wayland, which is also not released under GPL.
<Lomion> I'm starting to question how free Ubuntu will be in the future.
<holstein> yeah?
<holstein> you mean, cost?
<persia> There's *heaps* of software in Ubuntu not under the GPL.
<holstein> or 'free' ?
<Lomion> I mean 'free'
<persia> But everything meets the Ubuntu free software guidelines.
<holstein> yeah, i dont think it will get more or less free
<persia> Don't fuss about titles.
<holstein> the cost should stay the same
<holstein> since the commercial efforts to make money are different than selling it
<holstein> with the software store and ubuntone
<persia> From what I see, Wayland used to be under the MIT license (as is the xorg stack we use today), and may be moving to LGPL.
<persia> Nothing there to fear.
<persia> holstein, Lots of folk sell Ubuntu: nothing prevents that (and, in fact, if any software is licensed in a way that limits sales, it is considered non-free)
<Lomion> persia: really?
<persia> Lomion, Yes.
<holstein> persia: ture
<holstein> true*
<Lomion> I thought only the media (CD, usb drive, etc) that contain Ubuntu could be sold...not the actual software.
<persia> Lomion, The "Wayland is no longer GPL" noise seems to come from a change to some of the utilities from GPL to LGPL.  Nothing to concern most folk.
<persia> No, all the software can be sold.  Mind you, lots of people give it away free, so one has to have an edge to be able to sell it.
<persia> I bought a copy of Ubuntu on one of my laptops.  I know a company that charges 15 USD to install it on a server if you get one from them (you can install it yourself for nothing, but some folk like convenience).
<Lomion> persia, I didn't realize. I thought it was still under the MIT license.
<persia> Lomion, I might be entirely wrong about Wayland: the sum of my knowledge is based on http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODgxNQ
<persia> But I very much doubt there is anything to be concerned about, and I'm very sure that Ubuntu isn't going to get less free.
<persia> Oh, regarding selling Ubuntu: there's a trademark restriction: you can only sell Ubuntu if you don't change it: if you change it, you have to call it something else, or get permission from Canonical.
<Lomion> That makes sense.
<persia> Most folk work around that by applying patches as part of Ubuntu before it releases, so it doesn't matter much if one is cooperative.
<persia> Yeah: it's a quality control thing: nobody wants someone to claim they are giving away "Ubuntu" and have it be something else.
<Lomion> I just tested 11.04 this evening...quite impressive. I don't like Unity so far, but there's still an option to use the traditional gnome desktop.
<persia> Studio will default to the traditional desktop for 11.04
<persia> Plus, there's Kubuntu or Xubuntu, if you want something different.
<Lomion> True. I havn't used KDE since 4.0 was released, but I think it's got a lot better since then.
<persia> Oh, regarding "only the media can be sold": in the case where someone is requesting the source code for Ubuntu, and doesn't want to download it, it is permitted to charge for the media, but not for the source code.
<persia> Basically, if you give/sell someone the software, you can't withhold the source: required for freedom, but doesn't block sales of the software in the first place.
<ailo_at> Well, after recent comments on the jack mail list, I am once again of the opinion that we should not have memlock unlimited.
<holstein> ailo: doesnt need to be unlimited right?
<ailo> holstein: No. In the original UbuntuStudio controls you can choose the amoung in percents.
<ailo> amount*
<holstein> im with you ailo 
<holstein> i know you've been doing research and testing
<ailo> Not so much on this subject. I've never had any problems to my knowledge, but it seems some people have had.
<ailo> Hard to say sometimes what a crash is about
<ailo> Especially when one doesn't care too find out ::)
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> or just not sure how to find out
<holstein> tracking these errors down can be a lot of work
<holstein> needs to be done though
<ailo> I guess it would be a good practice to learn what logs to look inside and ask others about the crash if it's hard to figure out
<holstein> ailo: app crashes?
<holstein> or jack crashes?
<holstein> im pretty sure i havent had any issues
<holstein> i used to follow the 64studio settings though
<holstein> which were not unlimited
<ailo> I've had some system freezes that very well could have been caused by something like the memlock thing
<holstein> ailo: what are you setting memlock at now?
<ailo> I have the standard settings created when installing jack
<ailo> It's been a while since I had a total system freeze
<ailo> Probably a year ago
<ailo> Or more
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i havent seen that since some other machine
<holstein> years ago
<ailo> It won't hurt to minimize the memlock to something like 75%, so I think we should change the default value to something like that.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-06
<Len-1204> astraljava: Re: pulse to jack bridging.
<Len-1204> I think I have found the solution. It just needs to be automated.
<Len-1204> I have installed todays US and set it for RT... user is already in group audio.
<Len-1204> starting jack with qjackctl shows pulse through jack... but no audio plays. killall pulseaudio -> open the pulseaudio control app. This starts pulse up again and everything works.
<Len-1204> I think that while pulse audio put the jack bridging in place it never lets go of alsa as one of its outputs.
<Len-1204> The pulseaudio controler showed two outputs when it wasn't working and now only shows jack when it works.
<Len-1204> Big plus when running pulse into jackd.... pulse has no access to alsa controls ;-)
<Len-1204> This is good and bad. The plus is that for example with audacity where it starts a connection with pulse at record buttom push
<Len-1204> pulse can't then muck with the capture controls that have been carefully set.
<Len-1204> The minus is that setting those controls could be less intuitive.
<Len-1204> There are two sets of controls ;-) the alsa set and the pulse set.
<Len-1204> The pulse set is software.
<Len-1204> Earlier we talked about making sure that any of the missing applications from workflows will install and will run.
<Len-1204> audacity is a yes. In fact it works better with PA/jackd bridging. It can record what a PA client is doing... so someone doing a "podcat
<Len-1204> "podcast" using skype. can call someone and record it.
<Len-1204> (I actually had someone ask how that exact thing could be done)
<Len-1204> Installed ubuntu-standard. with nano, telnet (which can be used for lots of things besides remote login BTW)
<Len-1204> That also installed ufw and perhaps some other things that may now run from start up... not sure if that is a good thing... having more stuff run. But having a cli editor I can use with out a manual on my lap is good.
<Len-1204> Linux sampler seems to be a lib not an app so I installed qsampler which is LS with a gui.
<Len-1204> Hmm, qsampler installs... doesn't show in menu though there is a desktop file. I can't run it though. It start the linuxsampler server but can't connect to it (connection refused)
<ailo> linux-sampler is not installed, is it?
<ailo> It's "non free"
<Len-1204> I think qsampler installs it as a depends
<ailo> At least last time I checked
<Len-1204> Then maybe it should not be in our workflows?
<ailo> Is there even a package in the repo?
<Len-1204> seems to be
<Len-1204> qsampler is there
<Len-1204> it seemed to pull in something.
<ailo> qsampler is just the frontend and is under a different license
<ailo> The thing with linux-sampler is that the license i GPL but with a restriction
<Len-1204> qsampler starts a server it says is linuxsampler
<ailo> I guess to prevent it to be used in hardware samplers or something, who knows
<ailo> Len-1204: Do apt-cache search linux-sampler or linuxsampler
<Len-1204> it seems to start... but maybe it has no way of knowing besides if it can connect
<ailo> Len-1204: I don't think there is any linux sampler there
<ailo> Or what's the command to show dependencies for a package?
<Len-1204> root@ustudio1204:~# apt-cache search linuxsampler
<Len-1204> gigedit - instrument editor for Gigasampler files
<Len-1204> liblscp-dbg - LinuxSampler Control Protocol library - debugging symbols
<Len-1204> liblscp-dev - Development files for LinuxSampler Control Protocol library
<Len-1204> liblscp6 - LinuxSampler Control Protocol wrapper library
<Len-1204> qsampler - LinuxSampler GUI frontend based on the Qt toolkit
<ailo> I know this cause I used to compile linux sampler for ubuntu now and then in the past
<ailo> It has a restriction that makes it impossible to add it to the repo
<Len-1204> I think it is something (at least for now) to remove from the workflows
<Len-1204> How about xsynth?
<ailo> I don't know what that is
<ailo> falktx builds linux-sampler for his ppa, so if it is to be used in a workflow documentation somewhere, a ppa would be needed
<ailo> It would probably be best to create a new ppa for just those odd packages
<Len-1204> xsynth is already included
<Len-1204> there is a wsynth which is a wavetable hack on xsynth that looks interesting.
<falktx> DSSI stuff is being deprecated
<Len-1204> Ah, so it should be removed?
<falktx> no
<Len-1204> we are moving to LV2?
<falktx> deprecated doesn't mean good, just that it won't be there for too long
<falktx> LV2 is the future, in theory
<falktx> I don't ha
<falktx> err
<falktx> I don't like it
<Len-1204> Will dssi be here long enough to last for 12.04?
<falktx> of course
<Len-1204> 3 years I thnk
<falktx> dssi stuff won't go anywhere, but new apps will stop supporting it
<falktx> so slowly it gets less usable
<Len-1204> there is a plugin module we ship that mounts them and ports them to jack... as long as we have that we are ok
<Len-1204> Nope, I'm wrong. they are lv2 racks
<Len-1204> There are two dssi bridge programs though, maybe we should include one of them.
<ailo> There's something called ghostess
<Len-1204> dssi-host-jack works with jack and ghostess bridges to lv2
<falktx> what?
<ailo> I only know that hexter uses dssi-host-jack. No idea how that works
<Len-1204> nope sorry ghostess is the gui for the first one
<ailo> I often us hexter as a standalone thing
<ailo> Just tried ghostess
<ailo> It's some kind of a very simple gui
<ailo> For dssi plugins
<Len-1204> naspro-bridges is the one that goes to lv2
<Len-1204> I'm trying them both
<Len-1204> naspro makes all the dssi synths show up in zynjacku
<Len-1204> ghostess is not user friendly. requires cli to start. I would suggest naspro-bridges as it installs and just works.
<falktx> naspro doesn't do dssi guis
<falktx> which makes fluidsynth and hexter useless
<falktx> maybe others
<Len-1204> it does give control in a gui, just not the gui it came with.
<falktx> that's not the point
<Len-1204> not the gui the dssi came with
<falktx> fluidsynth for example has no parameters
<falktx> so zynjacku will not display anything in the UI
<falktx> it needs the internal plugin UI to select a soundfont
<Len-1204> Ok, actually neither fluidsynth or hexter show up in zynjacku anyway.
<Len-1204> hexter can run stand alone and fluid has qsynth
<Len-1204> naspro allows xsynth and wsynth to work stand alone as well.
<ailo> hexter can't run as standalone without jack-dssi-host
<Len-1204> Frescobaldi pulls in lilypond. 
<Len-1204> do we have that?
<Len-1204> lilypond-doc is very big. 237M we may want to install without. and download after we have network.
<Len-1204> Yeah, we have jack-dssi-host.
<Len-1204> Frescobaldi/lilypond installs and runs.. I am not a good tester of this though as I am not someone who follows music... chord charts are about it.
<Len-1204> CSound/celia load and run.... again I don't know how well it runs
<Len-1204> chuck is not available in repo.
 * micahg sees chuck in the repo
<micahg> chuck | 1.2.0.8.dfsg-1.4 | precise/universe | source, amd64, armel, armhf, i386, powerpc
<Len-1204> found it, thanks.
<Len-1204> xwax loads. It is a cli utility. I can't test it with no equipment though.
<Len-1204> Chuck has a learning curve,but installs and runs as best I can tell.
<Len-1204> Mixxx looks good. I can get sound out of it. Too big for my tiny screen though, actually manages to stop PA. Probably any reasonable laptop would be fine, but a desktop would be better. (soundcard wise too)
<Len-1204> rivendell? I can't find it.
<Len-1204> IJDC? can't find that either
<TheMuso> idjc
<TheMuso> idjc is in precise.
<Len-1204> I just found it. I'm not sure if its on the workflows page wrong or I copied it wrong.
<Len-1204> darkice installs ok as does darksnow. I dont have a server to try it with though. darksnow is a gui for darkice.
<Len-1204> darksnow coredumbed when I exited.
<Len-1204> is it worth having dark ice without icecast?
<Len-1204> icecast is small, but requires questions to be answered while installing. ubiquity wouldn't handle that.
<Len-1204> Also, the install of icecast starts the icecast server... in foreground...
<Len-1204> idjc looks good. Talks to jack etc. I would need a running icecast server to try it out well :-)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-07
<Len-live> astraljava: are you aware of a maximum size of usb stick that can be used to put an iso image on?
<Len-live> I had been using an 8G, but today tried a 16G. It booted for a bit then fell back to busybox.
<Len-live> The 8G still worked fine with the same image.
<Len-live> I was able to install US on the 16G memstick though. I think this is probably better than live with persistence.
<Len-live> Anyway, I repartitioned the 16G to 3G and 13G and was able to boot live from the 3G partition.
<Len-live> I guess when it looks for a DVD/CD it checks all drives under a certain size.
<astraljava> len: I don't know of such limitations, but you could check your motherboard manufacturer, or the BIOS provider for that model. It wouldn't _totally_ surprised me if there were some.
<ailo> I usually use a 4GB sized usb stick. Don't think the size matters that much. More to do with how large the image is
<ailo> I would think 2 GB should work
<ailo> But, I've heard some models don't work well to boot with
<ailo> I have no idea why
<astraljava> Yeah.
<len> I think it is the code that looks for the "cd". It boots fine, but when it looks for the software to load it can't find it.
<len> Perhaps I will try some different sizes to find out where the max is... but it really isn't that important.
<len> It works with 8G which is bigger than a real DVD.
<len> I think installing to a USB device is great for testing. I can leave my hard drive alone.
<ailo> len: Ah, you're installing onto the usb stick
<len> The drive is limited to USB2 speeds (in my case) but this doesn't seem to have been an issue
<ailo> It should only work on the PC you install with as far as I know
<len> I have been installing on to a 40G USB drive.
<len> I havn't tried running the installed drive on a different machine... my only thought was to have a second drive for test installs
<ailo> I guess 4 GB is probably minimum
<ailo> But, maybe a little too small for a standard installation?
<len> I just noticed that usb sticks are getting ever bigger and sooner or later someone is going to print the iso to a 64G usb stick and complain it doesn't work...
<ailo> Why should it not work?
<len> I used a 16G to install to That worked fine and left 9G of space free.
<len> Well my 16G din't work...
<ailo> You weren't able to create a live usb that was 16GB?
<len> It did work when I shrunk the partition I was putting the iso on though.
<ailo> I've made live usb's with a 16GB stick before
<len> That is correct. It booted but then couldn't find the "cd" to load from.
<ailo> Probably needs a little more investigation to figure out what the problem really is
<len> Maybe I will try a again. Gotta go to work now though.
<Len_live> ailo: you are right. 16G works fine. I wonder if my memstick came with no partitions and was formated like a floppy.
<Len_live> When I formated this one it was sdd1... I am thinking before it was sdd.
<Len_live> Only one way to find out. Though it shouldn't make a difference.... if I can mount it and read/write on it... it should work.
<Len_live> I'll try it.
<len> That was not it. The iso installer added a partition and reformatted.
<len-live> Umm, someone has been playing with ubiquity... or maybe a theme. Ubiquity background is black... text too.
<len-live> The other apps seem ok
<len-live> So far, if I hover over a link it goes black on gray, but any other text is invisible.
<len-live> The slide show looks ok, but on slide change it now has black bands flashing through it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-08
<ScottL> hello everyone
<knome> hey ScottL 
<ScottL> hi knome , sorry i haven't been actively lately
<micahg> hi ScottL
<ScottL> hi micahg 
<knome> ScottL, np, i understand
<TheMuso> ScottL: I will make a point of reviewing the low latency kernel by no later than this weekend, maybe one night this week if I get a chance, but the weekend for sure.
<TheMuso> I haven't forgotten, just swamped with other work and life stuff.
<ScottL> TheMuso, oh, that is capital news :)
<ScottL> reviewing the kernel, not that you are swamped :P
<ScottL> TheMuso, any suggestions on who might be the other person to review the kernel?
<ScottL> i doubt i'll get much response from #ubuntu-motu, but i think it's either them or someone from UKT
<ScottL> i'll probably form a squad of us to start pestering a group of MOTU and UKT until someone breaks and does it :P
<knome> lol
<ScottL> has anyone kept up with the new version of mudita24?  did it make it into our repos yet?  does it fix the missing .desktop file?
<knome> ScottL, hurrah! (in the voice of stephen fry) -> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-xubuntu.html
<ScottL> knome, wow, congrats!  that is outstanding
<ScottL> i am a little afraid to look at ours now :/
<knome> it looks relatively good too :)
<knome> still below the mainline
<micahg> ScottL: kernel team will help for functional review, but not uploading
<knome> i'm off to bed
<knome> night
<Len-1204> ScottL: todays iso has something funny with the themes. Both ubiquity and the PA volume control are black on black
<Len-1204> Black text and black background
<ScottL> micahg, that is good information
<ScottL> micahg, i presume that means they cannot "approve" the package as a 2nd MOTU?
<micahg> ScottL: if you find a UKT member who's a MOTU, sure :)
<ScottL> i might presume too much, but i would expect TheMuso would help with the direct uploading
<micahg> ScottL: a new package needs and ACK from 2 MOTUs or core-devs
<ScottL> oh, crap, i was going to say something to len :(
<micahg> s/and/an/
<kubotu> micahg meant: "ScottL: a new package needs an ACK from 2 MOTUs or core-devs"
<ScottL> micahg, i believe TheMuso is a core-dev and he has committed to reviewing the package
<micahg> ScottL: right, so, you need 1 more :)
<ScottL> given the nature of the package (i.e. a kernel package), i'm just worried about finding the other required person
<ScottL> Len-1204, ack'd about the colors, it's probably something i did and need to fix :/
 * micahg took a cursory look and it needed lintian fixes
<Len-1204> Ok. Seems to affect very few apps. Just the two so far.
<ScottL> micahg, i am aware of the lintian issues, some i can readily fix, others that i'm not sure if i need to or not
<ScottL> micahg, e.g. the mismatch in section and missing .tar (or similar)
<ScottL> i'll look again so i can be specific
<micahg> well, don't prepend universe to the section
 * micahg would have to look again to do a better review
<micahg> ScottL: just ask if there's something you're not sure how to fix
<ScottL> micahg, i will, thank you :)
<ScottL> it probably won't be until this weekend before i can look at it again though
<ScottL> micahg, should i increment the version number or use 'dput -f' when i update it?
<micahg> ScottL: dput -f works for REVU
<ScottL> micahg, can i download the source from REVU?
<micahg> I think you can dget it from there
<ScottL> okay, i'll see about that later in the week then
<Len-live> Interesting.. pulse seems to work differently in a live dvd session than after installed.
<Len-live> It seems that starting jack in a live session makes PA crash. But not after install.
<Len-live> So far this has not mattered as PA needs to be restarted to work anyway.
<Len-live> Is Pure Data all there? are we missing the docs or data part?
<Len-live> couldn't open "/usr/lib/puredata/doc/1.manual/1.introduction.txt": no such file or directory
<ScottL> quadrispro, how can i manage to get better jack settings by default in a ubuntu studio install?
<ScottL> quadrispro, i mean when it is installed?
<ScottL> Len-live, i can't answer about pure data, as i know very little about it
<ScottL> Len-live, but i want to to do some testing on the live dvd this week, especially about the jack-pulse integration
<quadrispro> ScottL, which settings in particular do you want to tune?
<ScottL> quadrispro, the frames per second, something else that i have written down but can't remember currently
<ScottL> holstein, do you remember the settings?  i'll look at the blueprint
<ScottL> open question to the channel:  are there structural changes you would like to see in the current menu?
<ScottL> falktx__, do you remember the jack settings we discussed previously?
<Len-live> ScottL: I know very little about PD too, that was why I was trying the docs ..
<quadrispro> ScottL, usually these settings get passed to jack by the program (user interface, cli wrapper, whatever) you use to run jackd
<ScottL> quadrispro, my understanding is that jack will create the .jackrc file in the home directory
<ScottL> quadrispro, we can create that file during installation of the OS
<quadrispro> ScottL, yes, .jackdrc
<ScottL> quadrispro, my concern is that i would want to limit this in case a user installed the package AFTER the OS installation and it overwrites the existing .jackrc file
<quadrispro> mm
<ScottL> i am trying to avoid from messing around with a user's existing /home directory and settings they would want (in case they erroneously installed this package)
<quadrispro> either way, per-user .jackdrc file usually overrides system-wide config
<quadrispro> however, let me have a look
<ScottL> quadrispro,  hmmm, i didn't know there was two files
<Len-live> That file is just a jackd command line. The one I see in the live dvd is 
<Len-live> /usr/bin/jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p1024 -n2
<ScottL> Len-live, good point, i am actually talking about what settings qjackctl will use
<ScottL> quadrispro, ^^^^
<Len-live> I am not sure if it was there or got put there by jackd or qjackctl
<falktx__> ScottL: 44100 sample rate, 512 buffer size, 2 nperiods
<ScottL> quadrispro, ^^^ those are the settings
<ScottL> falktx__, thank you again :)
<falktx__> sure
<Len-live> I am using PA->jackd right now to listen to music. It works, but jackd needs to be running before PA starts or PA needs to have alsa shut off.
<Len-live> I found the stock PA level out seems quite high. The Jack meter bridge pins with PA input.
<Len-live> I think qjackctl will read ~/.jackdrc and write it when setup is oked.
<Len-live> Or maybe just before it starts jackd.
<quadrispro> yes, those settings
<quadrispro> ScottL, I should find some time to investigate further
<quadrispro> I have several bugs now to fix
<ScottL> quadrispro, it's not a rush, i was hoping to get this done in the next month or two, if that is acceptable to your schedule
<ScottL> Len-live, are you using qjackctl to start jack or command line?
<ScottL> qjackctl will most likely invovle pasuspender first
<Len-live> I use qjackctl. It does not seem to suspend PA.
<Len-live> ScottL  ^^^ (keep forgetting)
<ScottL> Len-live, it's the menu entry (from the .desktop file i believe) that first calls pasuspender and then qjackctl
<ScottL> at least it used to, david h. might have changed that alrzdy
<quadrispro> ScottL, weh, ok, please don't forget to ping later
<ScottL> sure :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-09
<quadrispro> see you soon guys
<Len-live> ScottL: I don't quite see how that would work..
<Len-live> qjackctl.desktop has:
<Len-live> Exec=/usr/bin/qjackctl
<Len-live> But we want PA to run through jackd ... I thought.
<Len-live> ScottL, some questions about jackd. Do you think it likely that a user will use jackd for one interface and pulse for another?
<Len-live> Jack and pulse play well together if PA is configured not to connect to alsa.
<Len-live> So if jack was to run all the time (from session login till logout) PA would just work
<ScottL> Len-live, before i forget again, does the new mudita24 have a menu entry?
<Len-live> Where do I look at it...? Is it in the repo?
<ScottL> it should be installed
<Len-live> Nope. I haven't seen any new software for a while.
<ScottL> astraljava added it to the seeds i thought and it should have been in for a while
<ScottL> the new version would be automatically included as it hit the repos for precise
<ScottL> but of course if none of the version had a proper desktop file then it wouldn't include the menu entry though
<ScottL> you can always test it with 'mudita24' from the command line
<ScottL>  
<Len-live> Just checking what synaptic says, it doesn't seem to be there from the cli
<ScottL> Len-live, the original implementation (i believe) from 8.04 for pulse-jack integration was to run the pasuspender before qjackctl
<ScottL> this was because pulse was brand new (some would argue too new to include) and no integration was done at all with jack
<Len-live> synaptic says no mudita24
<ScottL> once jack moved to dbus (not sure if pulse was always dbus enabled) then we could start better integration
<ScottL> once we installed the pulseaudio-module-jack package it should work even better
<ScottL> i believe we have added this to the seeds already
<ScottL> although i may need to talk to davd h. more about this
<Len-live> I think it is already there.
<ScottL> Len-live, if synaptic doesn't show any mudita24, either installed or available, then we may have a problem
<Len-live> PA does automatically connect to jack.
<Len-live> It shows it available, but not installed.
<Len-live> mudita version on the repo is 1.0.3+svn13-3
<Len-live> installiing now,
<ScottL> Len-live, the svn version is the new one i believe...although i'm disappointed that it appears to not be installed already
<Len-live> ScottL, Ive been looking for a list of new stuff... audacity too for one.
<ScottL> Len-live, i am adding audacity but i wanted to do that when i looked at the work flows, which should be this month
<Len-live> Ok, mudita24 has no desktop file.
<ScottL> grabbing the source, looking at the .desktop file (if extant), making a patch for it would be a good task for someone if they wanted to do it :)
<Len-live> Would that mean we are taking it over?
<Len-live> It would be easy enough to rename the envy24control one and mod it.
<Len-live> That much I could do, but not maintain it thereafter.
<ScottL> Len-live, well, ideally we would either push the patch upstream (i.e. debian) or just file a bug
<ScottL> i would want to patch our version right now, just so it works with 12.04
<ScottL> but we should always either file a bug or file a bug/send a patch "upstream"
<astraljava> It could be that no one's been updating the metas after the change.
<Len-live> Our version being the one in ubuntu repo?
<ScottL> Len-live, yes
<ScottL> it wouldn't really mean we are maintaining it, just adding some functionality
<astraljava> I don't think there's much point in patching it. quadrispro will create on in an instanst for debian, then we just sync.
<astraljava> one*
<Len-live> That would be best, otherwise we loose the desktop every time a new patch gets added.
<astraljava> Len-live: Patches can of course be carried with it for longer, but that would be pointless in this case.
<ScottL> astraljava, i was concerned that this late in the cycle we might now get it patched and synced in/from debian
<ScottL> not that we shouldn't try of course
<astraljava> ScottL: I think for this case we should get an exception now problem. No one else will have it in their seeds for sure.
<astraljava> Damnit, where's me grammer todey?! ARRRR
<astraljava> I blame it on my hockey game watching. :)
<ailo> Latest upgrade broke a lot of stuff on my system
<ailo> Hopefully it will fix itself, or one will have to reinstall
<ailo> pam and permission stuff
<astraljava> ailo: What system are you talking about? precise, sid, or oneiric?
<ailo> precise
<astraljava> ailo: Have you asked on #ubuntu+1, yet?
<ailo> I'll just wait and see. Usually when they change things like this it sorts itself out after a while
<ailo> If it doesn't, I'll just reinstall
<astraljava> Ok. I've just found, that using a dev release, and trying to fix the problems that occasionally emerge, teaches a whole lot of things of the internals. But then, I'm interested in that stuff. I acknowledge that not all people care. :)
<ailo> I wouldn't have time to find out. I don't know much about how pam and permissions work, and for me to second guess what the devs are up to would take longer than for them to get it working again
<astraljava> Yeah, just confirmed that mudita24 only gives ya a debian menu entry. I will talk to Alessio about this.
<len-nb> ScottL: unless I am lookiing in the wrong place...
<len-nb> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/ubuntustudio.precise/
<len-nb> I don't see mudita in the seed files.
<len-nb> I had been watching these for changes too so I would know what new things to look for.
<len-nb> (feel free to leave comments to me if it looks like I am here or not, I do look through the logs)
<astraljava> len: It's not in the seeds, that's true. I'm not sure why, but perhaps because I realized that we're still getting envy24control from alsa-tools-gui, and I wanted to avoid the duplicating situation. I actually don't know what to do about that.
<astraljava> len: ScottL: Alessio has created a .desktop file and an icon for mudita24 in sid, so we just need to sync again.
<astraljava> I'll be gone for several hours now, catch ya in 10 or so.
<len> astraljava: re: mudita24 being a duplicate. Because they are named differently, they can exist together.
<len> in the same way that we tell envy24control not to show up in the multimedia menu, we can just not include it in the audio production menu either.
<len> Then it would be in the system, but not visible/confusing... I don't think we can get it not to install.
<len> The correct solution would be to replace envy24control where it is. Perhaps by reporting a bug against envy24control about no peak detection.
<len> envy24control has a peak detect reset, but doesn't show peaks. Mudita fixes that.
<astraljava> News from the release people: DO NOT UPGRADE TODAY, if you have nVidia hardware. There is an issue between the recent libc and nVidia graphics drivers.
<astraljava> More info at eleven. Err... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers/+bug/929384
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 929384 in nvidia-graphics-drivers (Ubuntu) "nvidia drivers broken by the recent libc update" [High,Confirmed]
<scott-work> len: i'm guessing that what astraljava meant was that we ship alsa-tools, which also includes envycontrol24, and originally this seemed a duplicate of functionality
<scott-work> len: although we realize that envycontrol24 hasn't been updated for a while and it seems that mudita24 addresses some issues present in envycontrol24
<scott-work> so mudita24 is the proper path forward for our users
<astraljava> len: Yeah, what scott-work said.
<len>  bug 929384 seems to be the "free" driver. nouveau
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 929384 in nvidia-graphics-drivers (Ubuntu) "nvidia drivers broken by the recent libc update on i386 arch" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/929384
<len> I don't know how it effects the closed ones..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-10
<holstein> !details
<ubottu> Please give us full details. For example: "I have a problem with ..., I'm running Ubuntu version .... When I try to do ..., I get the following output: ..., but I expected it to do ..."
<Len-1204> ScottL: Playing around with the themes on today's iso. The only appearance style that works right seems to be greybird. All the others put some things in black on black.
<Len-1204> The window manager themes don't seem to affect this.
<Len-1204> flash seems to crash too. Now that I can see it.
<holstein> flash is crap
<Len-1204> Aye.
<holstein> ill be glad when thats over with
<Len-1204> It costs money for the tools to make it... prolly be around forever.
<Len-1204> however, what I meant was that whatever is funny with the themes blocks out flash video so i couldn't tell it was crashing
<Len-1204> Anyway, Yf needs help.
<astraljava> jussi: Please have a look at the criticism on #ubuntustudio re: ubottu, I'm sure Scott will be able to help with rephrasing.
<astralja1a> stochastic: Do you have privileges on changing that ubottu message?
<stochastic> maybe
<stochastic> I figure the first step is finding a replacement message
<stochastic> then we can worry about privileges
<astralja1a> Yeah, well I'd ping Scott also about it, but he's not online, so I figure we can change it to whatever, and ask for his opinion when he's around again.
<knome> holstein, do you have content for the installer slideshow?
<holstein> knome: not yet
<holstein> i thought i had tonite and tomorrow off, but i picked up gigs, which is good
<holstein> knome: dont wait on me if you want to knock something out, but i should be able to make some time early next week
<knome> i want to get at least something in before FF next week (wed)
<holstein> i should have monday evening open
<holstein> i do as of now at least
<knome> ok
<knome> bbl ->
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-11
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'm available on irc now if you want to talk, i also sent you an email response
<holstein> knome: OK... i got powerback....(i had a power outage on my day off :/ ) anyways, im rebooting my upgraded 12.04
<holstein> going to try and get some screenies going
<len-1204> ScottL: Where have our backgrounds moved to?
<ScottL> len-1204, i think they are in /user/share/backdrops now
<len-1204> Ok, found them.../usr/share/xfce4/backdrops
<len-1204> The file in /etc/lightdm needs to reflect that.
<len-1204> ScottL: it appears that a new install has no theme?
<len-1204> Greybird looks nice enough. It is darker and matches things like ardour.
<ScottL> len-1204, the theme should be called something like "ubuntu studio greybird" or similar
<len-1204> It also makes pavucontrol readable... I would assume in ubiquity too
<len-1204> I don't see that on the list when I open appearance.
<knome> ScottL, there's been quite many fixes to greybird lately, and more will come, so you might want to make sure they're applied to your theme as well
<knome> ScottL, or are you inheriting or so
<len-1204> ScottL: you may have to rename it to something without spaces.
<len-1204> Can't find a folder in /usr/share/themes with that name either.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Hi, I am around now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-12
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'm back, was out with family, changing and be back on in a sec
<ScottL> TheMuso, do you want to coordinate about what needs to be done?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Sorry, been in and out a bi8t.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok, so as I said in my recent email, I have the lintian errors in hand.
<TheMuso> But I don't know who needs contacting in the kernel team about the ABI numbers.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i admit that i do not fully understand the 'abi numbers'
<ScottL> TheMuso, thank you for correcting the lintian errors
<ScottL> TheMuso, however, i will gladly bug UKT members about the ABI numbers
<ScottL> TheMuso, but are we pushing the limits to get a second review before thursday?  should we mobilize a few people to bug #ubuntu-motu or other places/people?
<ScottL> just to be clear....
<ScottL> TheMuso, if you can explain a little more about the ABI numbers i certainly don't mind doing the leg work to follow up with people, however i am not currently doing it
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok, the aBI number changes every time the kernel ABI changes when there are changes made to the kernel. This is done to make sure modules/other stuff built against the kernel doesn't break, more more correctly, shows when external stuff against the kernel breaks due to changes.
<ScottL> TheMuso, okay, i will bug a few people in #ubuntu-kernel about it but also email apw (or ping him directly) about it
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'll also start announcing in #ubuntu-motu and poking a few other people about reviewing the kernel tomorrow morning
<ScottL> TheMuso, i am presuming you dput'ed the kernel changes back into REVU
<TheMuso> ScottL: Not yet, but I can.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Oh, who do you want as maintainer? The maintainer field cannot have 2 maintainers listed.
<TheMuso> According to lintian anyway.
<micahg> correct, 1 maintainer (which should be ubuntu-devel-discuss), the rest should be Uploaders:
<TheMuso> It doesn't have to be ubuntu-devel-discuss, but it has to be someone with an ubuntu.com address.
<micahg> no, it really should be ubuntu-devel-discuss
<micahg> a secondary team address can be added to Uploaders
<TheMuso> Fair enough.
 * micahg is guilty of making the Maintainer a team address as well, but it's not right
<TheMuso> Is that policy?>
<micahg> unoffical, we changed update-maintainer a while back to set ubuntu-devel-discuss as the maintainer across the board
<micahg> as Ubuntu doesn't officially have maintainers, setting Maintainer to something other than ubuntu-devel-discuss gives the wrong impression
<micahg> that doesn't mean that everyone that can should randomly upload stuff, but it shouldn't be used to give the impression of excluding people who want to help with things
<TheMuso> Right.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i would suggest me as maintainer as i don't want to impose on abogani (although i will most likely rely on his expertise)
<ScottL> TheMuso, although would it be possible to put the ubuntustudio-dev team as maintainer?  if not, then certainly feel free to use my name 'Scott Lavender <slavender@ubuntu.com>'
<TheMuso> ScottL: read above re what micahg said, I can certainly put you guys as uploaders.
<scott-work> TheMuso: ping
<scott-work> astraljava: ping
<len> scott-work: Would you like me to try making the theme work?
<len> You had mentioned the menus, but all the required apps are not in place yet.
<scott-work> len: i was hoping to look at this this afternoon, but i certainly have enough to do, so please do so :)
<len> What is the package name?
<scott-work> len: when i mentioned the menu i meant more about the larger structure, not if every app is in the correct place
<scott-work> len: what i mean, i would like the 'audio production' menu not under the 'multimedia' menu
<scott-work> those types of things
<len> OK, I am not sure how I would change it.
<holstein> i actually like it there though
<holstein> and it matches the way it was
<scott-work> holstein: i don't think it matches the way it was
<holstein> scott-work: used to be under "audio"
<holstein> i think the multimedia label is better anyways
<holstein> it was under a sub-heading like that
<holstein> i mean.. go for it.. im just stating opinion and preference
<len> Using multimedia is fine when there are three apps... video, audio and volume...
<scott-work> but what if we used "multimedia" for more desktop actions, play a movie, play a cd, etc
<scott-work> but have another menu for audio production
<holstein> eh.. i like it being there
<scott-work> and another for video stuff, and antoher for graphic
<holstein> not getting an extra one
<holstein> and its already like that
<holstein> but again.. im with you scott-work 
<holstein> i just remember looking there on the live CD.. seeing it under multimedia and thinking "hey, thats where it should be"
<holstein> i went right to it.. where as in gnome, some of the stuff seemed out of place where it was
<len> graphics is already split.. ok I will look at that. Where are we putting that I see there is some in the share directory, but some in /etc too
<len> holstein: we could do both.
<holstein> nah.. i can move them if i want in the end.. im just stating my preference for the things as-is, which is easier to maintain as well :)
<holstein> doesnt mother me personally either way
<scott-work> i downloaded the image last night to test a few things, i'll see if i can put the menu like i see it and i'll post an image to show the structure
<holstein> i just hope i *actually* get this evening to myself :/
 * holstein running to the concert.. o/
<scott-work> my thougth again, is that we are media creation distribution and that those work flows should be very present and accessible
<len> Do we really want to split the menu to every work flow?
<len> scott-work: we were originally talking about having a software loader that just loaded the wanted workflows, but I think that is gone because we want the live dvd to have "everything" and live dvd seems to mean it has whatever an install has.
<len> So the only reason for splitting the metas into workflows wold be so someone who has another ubuntu/deb flavour can just install one workflow.
<len> It seems like ubiquity will just install eveything.
<len> That being the case it may be just as easy to have only a few metas.
<len> ardour3b3 is released...
<len> We may be able to have a shiny new ardour3 for 12.11
<scott-work> len: this isn't for every work flow
<scott-work> len: but do you want every audio, video, graphical, and photography application int he same menu?
<scott-work> i don't think that is a very practical approach
<scott-work> nor do i think having your pedestrian applications (like totem and audacious) in media creation menus (i.e. audio production, graphical, or video menus)
<scott-work> i view totem and audacious to be desktop applications, things you do to consume media, tasks that your everyday user would do as well
<scott-work> but i would like the things you do to create the media in their own menus, but not under the multimedia menu
<len> Ya, I thought something like that
<len> It would be nice to let audio interface card controllers be on their own.
<len> We end up with a lot of extra stuff clogging up the audio menu with all of them
<astraljava> scott-work: pong, wait whatâ½ You're working on Sunday?
<len> Anybody know PA very well? I was wondering how easy it is to change settings on the fly from the CLI
<len> I would like to change the audio interface (to none) when jackd starts so that PA-jackd bridging works.
<len> exit
<len> opps...ignore thaT
<scott-work> astraljava: yeah, but i'm leaving now...i was just wondering if we were going to have a meeting (informal or otherwise)
<scott-work> see you in about thirty minutes
<astraljava> ScottL: We can haz. It's informal turn.
<len> ScottL astraljava whoever... I was just wondering if a tearoff menu for each workflow would be of use.
<ScottL> i'm back
<len> That is an app that has just the menubar and each item is a different workflow. Click on the workflow and tear it off and that menu can be put anywhere on the desktop. It would have just the apps for that workflow.
<ScottL> len, yes, i agree that having the mixers in their own sub-menu would be helpful.  i have also considered putting plugins in their own submenu as well
<ScottL> nothing is formalized yet, but i would like to see what makes sense, helpful to users, and not too much trouble for us
<len> I would put a synth or sound generator sub
<ScottL> len, that is a good suggestion
<len> I don't know if xfce supports tearoffs, but I will whip up a tk/tcl app with two workflows just to see how it would look.
<ScottL> len, i'm not sure about "tearoffs", i haven't heard of them before
<len> It may be possible (but dangerous?) to detect the sound IF and only show mixers that fit.
<len> That is why I will put together a tktcl script to show you...
<ScottL> len, one thing i've done is use the panel and added a basic work flow in a "fly-out" or "stack"
<len> It is easier to show than tell.
<ScottL> in the menu, you click on the single icon and an entire string of work flow icons comes out (in my case it was sideways because it was a side menu)
<len> My thought is that the main menu of work flows would go away when one of the subs was selected
<len> The main would come back when it was closed.
<len> I would suggest that the mini menu/pannel on the bottom be moved by default to be on the side... any one I have talked to puts it there and all the new screens are wider.
<ScottL> len, not to shut down your enthusiasm but, i'm not too worried about this right now
<ScottL> len, i DO want to focus on it in a cycle or two though :)
<len> ScottL: you are at least the third person who has said yours is vertical
<ScottL> i'm hoping to get the basic functionality pretty stable and well rounded this cycle and the next
<ScottL> then i wanted to start focusing on making things better for new, inexeperienced users (i.e. non-linux users)
<ScottL> this would even mean changes to how jackd behaves perhaps and better project management for audio
<len> ScottL: I would say the theme is standing in the way of new users right now ;-)
<ScottL> (ladish could be the chosen "audio project management" tool, maybe not, maybe we go with scripts and our own dialouge)
<ScottL> len, yeah, i'm going upstairs in a bit to install the latest image and see what's up
<len> To use Jackd, properly... PA needs to either be restarted after jackd or needs to have it's alsa ports set to none on the fly. and a2jmidid needs to be started after jackd.
<len> It would almost be better to default PA to no output and run jackd all the time.
<ScottL> len, it may be that the pulseaudio-module-jack isn't installed or installed properly or we need to make another adjustment
<len> PA is the problem. The modules are all there.
<len>  PA just doesn't drop it's alsa connection when it connects to jack.
<len> This way of doing things may actually be correct.
<len> Because jack may be using one audio IF and PA may also be meeding a second.
<len> meeding should be feeding
<len> I ran a session with jackd/pulse/a2jmidid with all the multimedia stuff running
<len> like audacious, video, flash, minitube etc. it all worked fine.
<len> I used audacious as an input audacity which also worked fine.
<len> Anyway, I need to go. Be back after lunch.
<ScottL> len, but also jack may need to be the the jack-dbus version or have it enabled or similar
<ScottL> i'm not sure what jack is working right now
<TheMuso> ScottL: Sorry, I got sidetracked last night.
<ScottL> TheMuso, that's okay, i'm still feeling a little off myself
<ScottL> what should the next step be?
<TheMuso> Well I need to upload the revised package.
<TheMuso> And will do so in the next hour or so, just coming online for work after the weekend, so processing email and such.
<len-nb> ScottL: Yup jackd is dbus... at least that is what it says in ps x.
<len-nb> It really is a PA issue. Just changing PA settings makes it work.
<TheMuso> len-1204: What settings need changing?
<len-1204> TheMuso: when jackd is started, the output settings of PA need to be set to none.
<len-1204> I can do that manually with pavucontrol (last tab) and everything works.
<len-1204> I can do this before or after I start jackd and it still seems to work either way.
<len-1204> As long as PA is using alsa as an output and jackd is using it, PA can't output anything as it is in a wait state.
<len-1204> One point of view might be this is a bug and another that this is a correct action.
<TheMuso> Hrm. Do you have the jackdbus module loaded? When pulse is running but not jack, have a look at the "pmc list-modules" command output.
<TheMuso> Sorry that shoudl be "pacmd list-modules"
<len-1204> Wow, that is about 5 pages. What am I looking for?
<len-1204> name: <module-jackdbus-detect>
<len-1204> Soon as jackd starts, PA connects to it and a look at jackd connections through qjackctl shows it set up correctly.
<TheMuso> Ok.
<len-1204> ScottL: There seems to be more than one menu file that does the same thing.
<len-1204> There is /usr/share/ubuntustudio-menu/menus/applications.menu
<len-1204> and there is /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/ubuntustudio-mutimedia.menu
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-04
<zequence> Sorry for being so damn slow with the SRU process for jackd2. It's undeway, and I've got the patched jackd2 packages available for all releases at ppa:zequence/sru
<zequence> There's also a qjackctl package there, for quantal, so if one would like to help me test, there's no need to upgrade the qjackctl package
<zequence> Preferred way is probably to add the ppa, update, and then do: sudo apt-get install --only-upgrade jackd2
<astraljava> zequence: One second, I'll see if I can connect to my desktop.
<astraljava> Yes, I can. I'll test in a bit.
<zequence> astraljava: Thanks. I was able to test the i386 version for quantal
<zequence> amd64 is still pending in the build que
<zequence> cue*
<zequence> bug 
<zequence> bug 956438
<ubottu> bug 956438 in jackd2 (Ubuntu Quantal) "qjackctl unable to stop jackd2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/956438
<zequence> That's the bug for the sru. Seems to be under way now
<astraljava> Cool, my rig is an amd64, so I'll test in a bit when the build is finished.
<zequence> I reported the bug almost one year ago. Made the patch fix more than two months ago. It's pathetic, is what it is
<zequence> ..not my code, of course
<astraljava> Ahh... well, you're acting on it, that's much better than can be said about anyone else. :)
<astraljava> zequence: Output of the operation: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1608569/
<astraljava> zequence: I also started gmb after that, and checked that it still scrobbles to last.fm, so at least pulse didn't feel too bad about it (shouldn't have, anyway, but thought to double-check anyway). :)
<zequence> astraljava: The change to the code is very slim, so it should be ok. Hopefully stopping jackdbus should not be a problem anymore
<zequence> Previously I tested the patch against the actual packages of quantal and precise. This time I used my own branch, which is a patched version of the same source as quantal has
<zequence> precise is more or less the same as well
<zequence> raring previously had the same version of quantal
<contrapunctus> zequence?
<contrapunctus> Odd, I sent you a private message, but it says 'you must log in with services to message this user'.
<contrapunctus> Anyway, man, got a sec?
<zequence> contrapunctus: You need a registered freenode account to PM me. I ran into some moron recently, so I felt this was an easy way to mute him
<contrapunctus> o.o
<zequence> contrapunctus: WhatÃ¤s up?
<zequence> That's Swedish for what's up, apparently
<contrapunctus> lol!
<contrapunctus> Well...there's this PD synth patch I've been trying to get to work. Can you check it out for me? o.o
<zequence> contrapunctus: Are you on #dataflow, let's move the discussion there
<contrapunctus> Yup.
<astraljava> zequence: Gotcha. Ok, thanks for doing the dirty work, I'm sure many users (as well as the rest of us) appreciate your efforts!
<zequence> scott-work: What's up?
<zequence> scott-work: I added a blueprint for the website. Seemed logical to have one
<zequence> There are some workitems that go there, presently under other blueprints
<zequence> ..I think
<zequence> Wasn't particularly looking at that, but realized that one of the big things to have is really info about device support
<zequence> smartboyhw: Hi
<zequence> smartboyhw: Hope you don't mind I overtook your workitem. 
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Testing
<smartboyhw> zequence, hello
<smartboyhw> don't worry:)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ping
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'd still like it if you worked on whatever you want within the testing part. As, ISO testing, or desktop testing. Those are both two things that I have not been focusing on at all myself
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah:D
<zequence> I'm not touching the docs for ISO testing, for instance.
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Hi, apologies for not having written any testimonials. I feel that as I've distanced myself from the project, and not having witnessed your actual work, I cannot write anything from that area. Hope you got enough from people who are actually present in the project. :)
<smartboyhw> astraljava, well I've got 8 testimonials in my wiki. Should be enough!
<astraljava> Oh wow, yeah that sounds plenty! :)
<zequence> The existing page on ISO testing is done by scott-work, but it's more of a sketch as I see it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TestingQA-ISOImages. Could be simplified into the actual tasks that need to be done
 * smartboyhw goes to work on ktorrent 
<smartboyhw> DId I tell  you guys I am now a Kubuntu packager?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Sounds like you are doing many things
<scott-work>  zequence cool. that's a good idea. i'll take a look at it.
<scott-work> hello smartboyhw : pong
<smartboyhw> zequence, I'm starting to get used to it now (don't worry, I'm still keeping track of testing here:P)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, you received that email about the 12.04.2 release notes?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: hmmm, not sure. don't seem to recall it but i haven't really checked email with focus during the weekend.
<scott-work> ah yes, i see it now.
<smartboyhw> scott-work, I just received it 
<scott-work> smartboyhw: is there anything in particular you are worried about not being included?
<scott-work> i'll have to clear my head space and think about it later before changing anything or replying
<smartboyhw> scott-work, the problem is: We didn't do much for Precise did we?:P
<scott-work> i don't _think_ we did, but perhaps zequence, len-nb , or astraljava might remember something
<zequence> The only thing I'm working on for Precise is the sru for jackd2
<zequence> Which is still pending
<zequence> We don't need to do much for precise though. The news are more about security updates, etc
<zequence> And that's really mostly Ubuntu specific, or even Xubuntu specific
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<smartboyhw> zequence, that SRU is still pending? Hmm...
<astraljava> scott-work: Without context, hard to say. :) I'll have to refresh my memory about it for sure, too.
<scott-work> hehe, me too astraljava , me too ;)
<smartboyhw> LOL
<scott-work> zequence: we've updated the lowlatency kernel, no?  that would be a nice one to add
 * smartboyhw strangely has no new lowlatency kernel for raring...
<smartboyhw> My space key is difficult to press on today
<zequence> zequence: That is true. We're nowadays updating the source for the kernel ourselves. And, linux-lowlatency is no longer behind in versions as was the problem eearlier for Precise
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> zequence, who are you talking to?:P
<zequence> The raring lowlatency is only updated as needed before release
<zequence> scott-work: ^
<smartboyhw> zequence, !?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Myself apparently
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> really?
<scott-work> lol, that was kinda funny
<scott-work> talking to infinity about the publishing/photography meta upgrade from 12.04 -> 12.10
<scott-work> <infinity> scott-work: If so, you probably want to quirk the release-upgrader to add them on upgrades.
<scott-work> <infinity> scott-work: It might be as simple as adding those packages to PostUpgradeInstall in the [ubuntustudio-desktop] section of data/DistUpgrade.cfg
<smartboyhw> scott-work, what did I miss?
<zequence> scott-work: Looks promising
<zequence> smartboyhw: There's a plan to SRU the new workflows so they become available also in Precise
<scott-work> smartboyhw: <infinity> scott-work: It might be as simple as adding those packages to PostUpgradeInstall in the [ubuntustudio-desktop] section of data/DistUpgrade.cfg
<smartboyhw> zequence, scott-work great news
<scott-work> inifinity is saying that this will cause an "upgrade" (or installation) of these packages during each release upgrade though, which is probably an okay situation
<scott-work> but he did say we would definitely need to test this
<smartboyhw> scott-work, I will as soon as it is ready
<smartboyhw> scott-work, remember to send out weekly reports:)
<zequence> scott-work: I think this is ok. Might be nice to add a (y/n) script in there
<scott-work> smartboyhw: yes, thank you for the reminder. i had remembers friday late and then completely forgot about it
<zequence> I'm not familiar at all with the ISO and installation stuff as of now. But, I could take a look at this. Which reminds me of the ubiquity pluing
<zequence> I'd "Remember the Milk", if I hadn't forgotten to install it again
<zequence> or a client for it, in the form of "tasque"
<zequence> bb in a couple of hours
<zequence> scott-work: How does it work, with the code to the ISO? Where is all it exactly?
<zequence> Actually, I think I'd like to do an inventory of all code Ubuntu Studio is connected to
<zequence> I had a look at the ubiquity plugins. Should be no problem to add whatever we want there
<scott-work> zequence: to be honest, i haven't a clue at this point.
<scott-work> zequence: but that is good news about the plugin, though
<scott-work> i believe the ability to exclude certain groups of packages will be appealing to someone who wants to set up an purely audio studio
<scott-work> or even other wise
<zequence> scott-work: I
<zequence> I'm thinking it would be nice to make all workflows instalable separately
<zequence> A list with toggles
<zequence> Also thinking about the logic with low latency settings. Many people might not need it. But, you may want it, even if not the whole set of audio packages
<scott-work> zequence: right, right. i was just giving one example. sorry for the confusion
<zequence> So, for some people -generic might be enough. One could add a "pro audio settings" toggle as well, toggled by default, which would install the core items, like linux-lowlatency
<zequence> I haven't thought through anything. Just thinking out loud
<zequence> So, that's package choices, pretty much
<zequence> What else do we need?
<zequence> scott-work: I think what I really meant was which code was infinity talking about before?
<scott-work> zequence: i think in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager
<scott-work> digging in now
<scott-work> zequence: this should be it:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/update-manager/precise/files/head:/DistUpgrade/
<scott-work> i was looking into raring and it wasn't there, so something is has apparently changed since then
<scott-work> but since we are worrying about updating precise, then i guess this sounds like the right thing
<zequence> scott-work: Right. Thanks
<zequence> I'm gonna go for a run. bb in an hour or so
<scott-work> right-o :)
<zequence> scott-work: Ok, I got the code. Need to put some time in it (upgrade thing)
<scott-work> zequence: cool :)
<zequence> scott-work: Let me just ask you a bit about this thing. I need to get this clear to me. Do we want the precise ISO to install the two new workflows?
<zequence> ubuntustudio-desktop doesn't depend on the metas after all
<zequence> which it shouldn't, of course
<zequence> If we add the new workflows to the ISO, I don't think that would mean anyone would find themselves getting the new workflows as a part of a normal upgrade, right?
<zequence> And the second part. When someone upgrades to quantal, do we want them to get the new workflows?
<zequence> I can only find one solution for that, if the answer is yes. During upgrade, the user is asked if wanting to install them, and thus made aware of the new workflows.
<zequence> You can still install Ubuntu Studio from a netinstall CD
<zequence> And that means you might not have installed all of the workflows
<zequence> What I'm saying is, the only time I think the user should not have the choice to have them installed is when installing directly from our ISO
<scott-work> zequence: it sounds like there might be two separate issues: getting a new precise install to include the two new metas, and also anyone upgrading from an existing precise install
<zequence> Well, yes
<zequence> And, I meant to say, the only time the user should not have a choice about it, is when installing from the ISO. Since we don't offer any choices there anyway
<scott-work> true
<zequence> scott-work: So, how important is it really to get the workflows from an upgrade?
<scott-work> i wonder if we have updated anything on precise for the new metas. i can't currently recall at this time
<zequence> scott-work: No, it seems to have been untouched since April
<scott-work> zequence: "how important" - i think len suggested (but maybe i'm misremembering) that upgrading from 12.04 -> 12.10 wouldn't bring in the new metas, even though if you installed 12.10 from ISO you would get them
<scott-work> but that doesn't sound right
<scott-work> hi falktx , ttoine  :)
<ttoine> hi scott-work 
<ttoine> scott-work, I have a great news
<scott-work> yes?
 * scott-work likes great news
<zequence> scott-work: Ok, it seems like no one ever suggested we add the new metas to Precise at all. It was just about the release upgrade process, then
<ttoine> a open source editor, Bonita Soft, just hired me to be community manager
<zequence> nice
<ttoine> I start in Grenoble, the company home, february 18
<ttoine> and I will be paied to be at most of Open Source fairs in the world
<zequence> ttoine: That's super cool
<ttoine> zequence, you can't imagine how much it is super cool for me ;-)
<ttoine> and i am gonna live in the mountain
<ttoine> I just hope internet connection are good when not in downtown
<scott-work> ttoine: wow, that sounds like a dream job!  congratulations, my friend
<scott-work> :)
<ttoine> so maybe, at least at beginning you will see me less on irc
<ttoine> scott-work, yes, a dream job ! ;-)
<ttoine> thanks
<ttoine> however, I will have to learn sql, etc. to make stats and reports about the community
<zequence> ttoine: Not far from Switzerland. Maybe I'll come to visit you some time, if I'm close by :)
<ttoine> zequence, you come in Switzerland often ?
<zequence> ttoine: Not as often as I would like. I'm going there in August, for Debconf
<zequence> My sister lives in Lausanne, so it's cheap for me to stay there
<scott-work> zequence: i would think that adjusting precise would be the "best" thing to do, but i wonder if we would really be able to do that
<ttoine> I like Switzerland: I lived in Zurich two years when I was a kid
<zequence> scott-work: Why not, as a part of making a new LTS release
<zequence> scott-work: I guess we need to check. That would also mean adding the new menu
<zequence> ..or the items in it
<zequence> Would make the LTS more up to date
<zequence> So, 12.04.2 is just out, right?
<zequence> Ah, no. It's still under development
<zequence> So, we could basically try getting in the changes before then
<scott-work> and that should fix the upgrade path problem as well, no?
<zequence> scott-work: Only for those who installed the later ISO
<zequence> We could of course add the upgrade options to update-manager as well
<zequence> But, personally, I find that less important
<zequence> The problem with the menu is probably that you need to delete user settings in order to get those changes in effect for users that already have Precise installed
<zequence> The way I'd argue is that 12.04 is one version of Ubuntu Studio, and 12.04.2 is another.
<zequence> You can't upgrade user settings anyway. Not even with Ubuntu
<zequence> scott-work: What we can do is post news about changes, and alert users so that they know they can install something new
<zequence> For those, who already installed Precise, that is
<zequence> scott-work: Sorry. From what I see, upgrading will never include the new workfows unless you add it to update-manager. While a newer menu would be added, but it might not show (because of the menu being stored in the home folder, after creating the user)
<zequence> scott-work: I'm getting a bit too tired for verbal communication. Going to doze off for today. 
<zequence> len-1304: ^ Let us know what you think about the release upgrade problem
<ttoine> zequence, sounds good
<len-nb> scott-work, zequence , The main problem as I remember, is that graphics and photography were in one meta. They were divided into two and then the seeding did not take or work quite right.
<len-nb> what this meant is that photography is only half there. The menu item is there but it is missing some of the photography items we had in 11.10
<len-nb> Therefore, the first thing to do is to make sure the metas you wish to add are correct. Not just in the seeds for 12.04, but also in metas synaptic can see. Once that is corrected... installing them will actually do some good.
<len-nb> Menus: The menu can be upgraded and the upgrade will show up in the menu of an original user after an upgrade.
<len-nb> However, I would suggest not. The photography menu will already be ok. The publishing meta was totally new and so you would be SRUing something new to an old release. Do we want to do that?
<len-nb> If we do include the publishing meta, the applications will be available to the user from the office menu anyway.
<len-nb> zequence, as we talked about this past weekend, I am thinking of going over the menu again anyway, so that our menu will work with any DE such as KDE, or gnome. (fvwm anyone?)
<len-nb> So that Studio would be more DE agnostic.
<len-nb> The menu does not get pulled into the users directory, it is always read from the main config file. Even alacart is used after the system menu config file and only places the user has changed things will affect anything.
 * len-nb is not happy with alacart.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-05
<len-1304> zequence, In qjackctl in the status panel, the time of last start (time running) are 24 hour centric. That is the time of last start is only right if less than 24hours in the past. My logs show an xrun that is long past as still not having been reset, but the reset time is nearer. (jack has been running since last week and only one xrun) Not sure which day though :)
<zequence> len-1304: I think we need to do some testing on the menu and seeds before hand. 
<zequence> Another thing I want to do is to upgrade the kernel to 3.5
<smartboyhw> zequence, do it after 12.04.2 and probably before 12.04.3 :P
<zequence> Ah, but the kernel freeze is already in effect
<smartboyhw> zequence, that is the problem. Also, -proposed is closing down today for precise:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: Do you have a schedule for this somewhere?
<zequence> If -proposed is closing down, that propably means it'll be hard for us to get anything in this time
<zequence> -default-settings is not going to happen anyway, so we might as well just try to do SRUs manually further down
<zequence> No, I think we have no choice but to skip this boat, and take the next one instead
<zequence> Anyone able to see wiki.ubuntu.com? Whever I try that page, I just get forwarded to whatever page I was on last at wiki.ubuntu.com
<contrapunctus> zequence, not working.
<contrapunctus> I get a server not found.
<zequence> It's just that page. If you go to another, it'll work. Like, wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio
<zequence> Or, rather, wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<contrapunctus> That ain't workin' either, mane.
<smartboyhw> zequence, I heard it from cjwatson in #ubuntu-release
<zequence> smartboyhw: I saw it. I also talked with him a bit. 
<zequence> I really need to fix my mail filtering. Manual readthrough of 200+ posts a day is not viable. One needs good filters for specific headers and keywords, and have some mail marked "important"
<smartboyhw> Grrrr:)
<zequence> I use sieve scripting for this on my fastmail account
<zequence> I'm thinkin it might be smarter to start using MUTT and do some script integretation
<zequence> integration*
<smartboyhw> Hey scott-work 
<scott-work> mornning smartboyhw , how are you today?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, getting a bit troubled since I'm now uploading somewhat 30 attachments to a launchpad bug:(
<zequence> scott-work: We won't be able to get anything in for 12.04.2. They've frozen -proposed
<zequence> scott-work: I think we could just do the SRU whenever we want for the things we find important
<zequence> I missed the opportunity to update the kernel this time, but will make sure to do it for 12.04.3. 
<scott-work> zequence: oh, that's kinda disappointing, but yeah, it would be nice to do the SRU for 12.04.03
<zequence> scott-work: Working on a sort of development release schedule template https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation#Ubuntu_Studio_Development_Release_Schedule
<scott-work> that page is looking good :)
<smartboyhw> Guys, scream at Bug 1116321:P
<ubottu> bug 1116321 in calligra-l10n (Ubuntu) "Please sponsor calligra-l10n 1:2.6.0-0ubuntu1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1116321
<smartboyhw> zequence, good job. Clap Clap Clap at the background
<holstein> zequence: cool
<holstein> zequence: that has not been my findings
<holstein> zequence: i assume you are commenting on my statment that maybe something wasnt supported by the lowlatency kernel?
<smartboyhw> holstein, he is
<zequence> holstein: Yeah. The lowlatency kernel is the exact same source as generic. There's no diff at all really
<zequence> There's just a difference in scheduling, since lowlatency has full PREEMPT and a faster HZ, while generic only has VOLUNTARY PREEMPT and a slower HZ
<zequence> So, any driver issue, anything concerning hardware, or whatelse, is exactly the same on both kernel flavors
<holstein> zequence: you can step in and help whoever however you want
<holstein> zequence: i was just saying that the issue for that user could be mor related to the graphics driver support in *any* os
<holstein> he said "ardour3 is slow and glitchy in ubuntu"
<holstein> and i was implying that it would be like that for any linux likely
<holstein> for any kernel
<zequence> holstein: Sorry, I didn't read much of the discussion. I have irssi alert me whenever someone mentions lowlatency :)
<holstein> and the hardware support might be bad for his graphics card or whatever
<holstein> no worries
<zequence> I just wanted to clarify that lowlatency == generic. Many people are not sure what lowlatency is. Some think it's a for of realtime kernel, which of course it is. But, only because much of the older realtime code is now in the vanilla kernel. Other than that, it's just a normal Ubuntu patched kernel
<holstein> it hasnt euqaled it for me
<holstein> but, i havent dont much testing with it recently
<holstein> all i know is, we have it.. its different
<zequence> holstein: There seems to be a nvidia bug that is releated to a library that Ardour3 uses
<holstein> if something doesnt work, you might want to try the generic
<holstein> it might be newer
<holstein> zequence: A3 is beta, that was enough for me
<zequence> holstein: It's the same. 100%. No diff at all
<zequence> holstein: The versions are now in sync, and the source is exactly the same
<holstein> if there is not difference, then we shouldnt have it
<zequence> I'm doing the maintenance for these kernels, after all, so I should know if anyone
<holstein> im not saying its not a user issue either
<holstein> sure
<holstein> and im not saying you dont know
<zequence> holstein: As I said, the only difference is how the scheduler works
<holstein> im just saying, if a user says "im having hardware support, im going to suggest a different kernel
<holstein> the version is more what im talking about
<holstein> zequence: and you can be right there, saying im full of it, and wrong
<zequence> Suggesting another flavor is not going to help though
<holstein> and i wont care one bit
<holstein> zequence: sure... so you dont have to
<holstein> and i might still
<holstein> since the generic will be newer
<zequence> It's not
<holstein> but, i understand what you mean
<holstein> zequence: ok
<zequence> It's the same version. they are in sync
<holstein> cool
<zequence> On the development release version, currently raring, the kernel will sometimes lag behind. But, not on the released versions. Not anymore
<zequence> Not since I overtook maintenance
<holstein> sure, but that might be just now... and i'll get there
<holstein> and i appreciate your work, and hear what you are saying
<zequence> There might be a chance for some form of regression on released kernels, but the chance is probably really slim, as from what I understand, most patches are security fixes of some sort. I estimate the biggest chance for someone to see a difference between kernels is get another version alltogether, like jumping from 3.5 to 3.8
<holstein> one thing is for sure.. i dont know much about kernels.. but i might suggest for someone to try a different kernel
<zequence> holstein: But, in the case of Ardour, I've heard other complain of slow graphics, and from what I've read, it's somehow related to nvidia graphics.
<holstein> i just wouldnt run A3 and expect it to be perfect
<holstein> i mentioned running it from the avlinux live CD and the user said he had as well, and that it was slow there too
<zequence> I once had my whole system crash from a nvidia bug
<zequence> It was a very weird one
<holstein> which, supports the fact that its not an ubuntu only issue, which was what he was implying
<zequence> Had to do with the mail client Evolution, and gpg signed mail. 
<holstein> that the A3 slowness was an ubuntu issue
<zequence> Yeah, I doubt it is
<holstein> more likely, like what you are saying, something to do with graphics that would be for all kernels and linux's
<holstein> i was saying.. A3 is A3
<holstein> it was an odd exchange anyways
<zequence> The weird thing with my bug was that, it wasn't anything visual, it seemed. Just freaking symbols in a mail
<holstein> said he was "bored" with ubuntustudio[C[C
<zequence> Some people would prefer we had lots of external repos included by default, but they don't understand what Ubuntu Studio is, that it's actually a flavor of Ubuntu
<zequence> I can understand people wanting it to have more
<zequence> But, then, it wouldn't be Ubuntu anymore
<holstein> sure... lke mint does.. the mp3 stuff.. codecs
<zequence> We owe a lot to the Debian Multimedia team for our packages
<zequence> Some guys there are maintaining a hell of a lot of them
<zequence> Too bad falktx is not that interested in helping out there ;)
<holstein> the AVlinux guy said they were doing so much better upstream
<holstein> OR, able to do better
<zequence> I'm sure there's room for improvement, but that means people need to dive in there and help out
<holstein> yup
<holstein> i wish i knew enough to help out up there
<zequence> I'm going to debconf this year. Hoping to meet some of the guys there. I'm becoming a team member there myself currently
<falktx> oh cmon
<falktx> zequence: you need to stop that attitude
<zequence> falktx: Why?
<falktx> I'm already pretty busy as it is
<zequence> falktx: I'm just saying that if you find flaws in packages, you might as well do it in Debian source, and not have to do that in your own packages later
<falktx> ...
<falktx> I did report those issues before
<falktx> no one cares or bothers usually
<falktx> so I then gave up
<falktx> debian is seriously flawed in my opinion
<falktx> it's a pain to work with
<zequence> falktx: But, you are working with Debian, since you are using it as a source. You're just not making changes upstream to Debian.
<zequence> And, I don't find the issue being that nobody cares
<falktx> my changes don't really matter to debian
<falktx> debian is not a only-jack distro
<zequence> Maybe some do, some don't
<falktx> but you don't know that, do you?
<falktx> you're judging me too quickly
<falktx> why do you think TangoStudio and DreamStudio exist?
<falktx> why dont they help out with Ubuntu and UbuntuStudio too?
<holstein> i havnet looked at them in a while.. i like to load up the live CD's
<holstein> see whats going on there
<zequence> falktx: tbh, I have no idea. The guy doing DreamStudio has been here, but he was not very interested to do lots of work for us, really. As for TangoStudio, I don't know if anyone even has been around here trying to help
<falktx> the changes I make are usually only for working better with jack-only setups
<falktx> like removing pulseaudio support
<falktx> I have custom+new packages in my ppas, yes, but so does everyone else
<falktx> do you know why they prefer to package in a PPA instead of going to Debian directly?
<falktx> there's a reason for that...
<zequence> The only reason I see is that it makes it easy to do things your own way explicitely
<falktx> and because debian is painfully slow and full of politics
<zequence> Those things that are the same for all, those should be made for all
<zequence> It's just logic
<falktx> I feel like you keep bashing me, like you expect me to do a lot more
<falktx> I already do quite a lot of things, my whole life the past year has been dedicated to opensource
<zequence> falktx: Hey, I'm not being that serious. Please, don't think I disapprove with your work
<falktx> I don't have a job for quite a while now, so I can finish my things properly
<zequence> falktx: I'm not critizing you, or anything. I'm just looking at possibilities for improving linux audio, that's all
<falktx> I know for sure that when I finish my cadence tools that's going to help a lot
<zequence> I'm not a member of a football team. I'm not rooting for anyone. Just trying to find a way to do things right
<holstein> i just wish it were easier
<falktx> and I'm working to get it into debian
<holstein> i mean, falktx cant just show up and fix things
<zequence> falktx: That will be a good thing
<falktx> zequence: it's already in progress, be patient
<falktx> holstein: I did sometimes in the past, got some of my efforts totally ignored
<falktx> but UbuntuStudio is moving towards something that I don't fully agree with
<zequence> I'm going to become a Debian Multimedia Member, and I can say for sure that I will not ignore anyone on purpose. My impression of the team now is that they are too few, and have too much to do. 
<holstein> falktx: what is that?
<falktx> I'm seriously hoping Cadence will help US, but not sure what I can do more for it
<holstein> zequence: lemme know how that goes, or if there is need for someone like me there
<zequence> holstein: I think it's mostly working with packages, since Debian is more of a library for other distros, a frame work, and not really a distro per se, like Ubuntu
<zequence> scott-work: I more or less copied the Ubuntu schedule. This is still just preliminary, but on the whole, do you agree on the format? The schedule is divided into four periods. 1. planning 2. development 3. Beta testing 4. Final release (which is really not more than for making announcements) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation#Ubuntu_Studio_Development_Release_Schedule
<zequence> I'm still using that whole page as a whiteboard. Will start putting stuff in separate pages later on
<zequence> scott-work: Also, I'm working on something now that touches the team structure bit. You started sketching on that last weel. I have suggestions too. 
<zequence> scott-work: This is what I've come up with. I was thinking each of these teams will need their own task description, blueprints, and schedule http://paste.ubuntu.com/1613448/
<zequence> I don't see a point with having a core team, and what we call the packagin team is really the launchpad -dev team
<zequence> I've grouped PR with Support, since users will ask questions on all of our channels. Some may focus mostly on user support, others more on posting news. Some both. I'm thinking both should have access to the same channels either way
<zequence> scott-work: I'd like the teams to coincide with the launchpad teams as much as possible. 
<zequence> I've created the bugs team, but I'm thinking it's not actually necessary 
<zequence> hmm, or maybe yes. I'm thinking of subscribing to bugs for all our multimedia packages. I should subscribe that team to those bugs, now that I think of it
<zequence> scott-work: Would be nice if you could change the name of the ubuntustudio-testers team to ubuntustudio-testing
<zequence> Just a minor detail :)
<zequence> scott-work: My next step is to start working on docs and resources for each team separately. I'll redo our landing wiki at the end of it. Really want to finish my work on dev docs.
<zequence> scott-work: So, I really want to get the team structure done, at least as a temporary solutions, so I can go ahead with the docs
<ttoine> hello
<zequence> ttoine: Hi
<zequence> ttoine: What do you think? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentReleaseSchedule
<scott-work> zequence: sorry, been in tons of meetings today and fixing problems, i'll will look at this but it will have to be later
<scott-work> i'll try to give some time to it in hopefully no more than four hours
<zequence> scott-work: np. There's enough to do for the willing, but I'd be happy if we could come to some conclusion today about the team structure
<scott-work> that would be nice, and probably easy to do as well
<ttoine> zequence, nice work
<len-1304> scott-work, zequence, there is a new rewrite of catfish going to be coming out this month. The old version does not work (won't even open) The new one (from the dev's PPA) works really well and is much faster than the one nautilus no longer has.
<len-1304> I would like to wait for the new release and then add it.
<zequence> len-1304: sounds good to me
<len-1304> scott-work, have you played with nautilus in 13.04 yet? I would like to switch back to thunar as default
<scott-work> len-1304: let's switch to thunar as default
<scott-work> it makes sense now
<scott-work> beyond sense
<len-1304> Should I remove nautilus from the seeds?
<zequence> In that case, I think we might consider going the full way with everything
<len-1304> zequence, what other things did you have in mind?
<zequence> I mean, using XFCE/Xubuntu defaults for all things desktop related, except for our workflow additions
<zequence> len-1304: We're currently shipping the gnome system monitor. Is there anything else?
<len-1304> Only things that xfce doesn't have  something with the same function.
<len-1304> system monitor was added for that reason too.
<zequence> len-1304: Is the XFCE system monitor there still?
<len-1304> no.
<zequence> My logis is this. The less we change, the more we can reuse Xubuntu documentation
<zequence> And focus on the multimedia specific items
<len-1304> It didn't show memory used correctly.
<zequence> len-1304: Correct is not the right word, I think. 
<len-1304> However, I don't care that much.
<len-1304> Very few people are going to know what the numbers mean. The rest of the xfce version is fine.
<zequence> One could report that upstream to XFCE, and ask for it specifically
<len-1304> micahg, you mentioned that ubuntustudio-default-settings needed fixing up before release. If I make changes to it will that get in the way? Can I fix it?
<micahg> len-1304: go ahead, I haven't started yet, let me know when you're done
<len-1304> Just changing a default application. Will do. micahg 
<zequence> scott-work: I think we could differentiate between lead roles and team roles in some situations. 
<zequence> project lead is of course not team specific. And some other lead function may not be either
<zequence> What I'm after is having as few teams as possible. Each team having their own wiki page, where they can find *everything* related to their area of interest/responsibility, without needing to bother with other teams
<zequence> I'm just starting on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/KernelTeam
<zequence> I'm thinking of keeping separate schedules for each team as well
<zequence> As long as it proves to not be too much work, that is, which I'm hoping it won't be
<zequence> scott-work: As soon as I'm done working out the docs for a specific team, I feel it's a good time to ask for volunteers for that team on all social channels and mail lists
<scott-work> zequence: good idea!
<scott-work> i'm hopefully wrapping up a few things and will give 30 minutes to reading/thinking/typing about team stuff with you
<zequence> My goal here is actually somewhat hoping to increase the dev team not only with one or two people, but substantially over the next releases
<zequence> That does require clear definitions for our areas of development, so that people can just dig in and do work
<scott-work> zequence: okay, rereading a few things to get into the right head space and then i'll poke you again
<zequence> I already went ahead and did a few changes to this page, but the teams are still the same as before, except I added a list for leads https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<zequence> My plan is to make that page a portal to the docs for each team later. To give an ovesight of the whole Ubuntu Studiodevelopment initiative
<scott-work> zequence: the only real differences i had was that i combined PR and website team. also didn't have a support team. but i'm good with what you have there
<zequence> scott-work: Alright
<scott-work> there are other non "dev" teams also in launchpad like "ubuntustudio", "ubuntustudio-user", "irc-ubuntustudio-ops"
<scott-work> "nightly"
<zequence> Ah, irc ops
<scott-work> but we don't really control that team, just memebers
<zequence> ubuntustudio-user?
<zequence> Can't find that one
<zequence> scott-work: ~ubuntustudio is a great resource, I think, though. It has a lot of members. I think it would be good to make announcments on there from time to time, just like the social channels
<scott-work> errr, wait...i have that wrong :P
<zequence> I'm thinking of that as a -user groub
<zequence> group*
<scott-work> sorry, was confusing myself with what xubuntu had done
<zequence> We should add the irc team
<zequence> ..to the list
<zequence> scott-work: I'm thinking the website team may be more about administering the theme and the organization of the site, more than the content
<zequence> while PR would be responsible only to create content
<zequence> I think we can make that happen permission wise too
<scott-work> zequence: that's a good idea. i was only trying to minimalize a few things and keep it small. not that this is important, was just a starting place for me. i was worried about not having enough people and didn't want to make a bunch of teams for three people, ya know? :P
<zequence> Yeah :)
<zequence> There's currently no team for PR on launchpad. I could create one, make it restricted, add it the rights to make content on the website, then hand it over to you
<scott-work> zequence: before we make new teams we probably should restructure who is a member of what team
<scott-work> when -devel became a meember of -nightly it caused several teams to be restricted, which i don't think we should be
<scott-work> i think the majority should be moderated.
<zequence> scott-work: I'd need to experiment with that to understand how that works. Using non-real teams, just to see how launchpad does things
<zequence> I haven't understood the hierarchy yet
<zequence> -dev team doesn't have to be on top of all other teams
<zequence> Most teams probably don't need a hierarchy, for any other reason that to just find other teams easily
<zequence> than*
<zequence> holstein: Do you use FB and such much? We get a few support questions of FB and G+ now and then
<scott-work> zequence: i looked heavily at how xubuntu was doing it
<holstein> zequence: i do
<holstein> i could watch fb
<holstein> where do they seem to come in?
<scott-work> zequence: holstein: i think it is as follows for xubuntu....
<scott-work> xubuntu-team  is there on top
<zequence> holstein: http://www.facebook.com/Ubuntustudio. Not sure how to be notified. I guess it shows up on a page tab. I think you should be made moderator of that page though 
<holstein> i'll see what i come up with
<scott-work> whoops, scratch that
<scott-work> xubuntu-users is on top which is an open team
<scott-work> xubuntu-team is under that
<scott-work> essentially xubuntu-team is their -dev team
<scott-work> and there is a strange mixture -team being part of other teams, very non-linear and confusing
<scott-work> but since we have ~ubuntustudio i thought we could use that as the top level
<zequence> Yeah, I don't find launchpad easy to follow on the team hierarchy
<scott-work> then tuck -devel, -website, -testing, et al under there. all co-level with each other
<scott-work> zequence: keep in mind, a team's "openness" (open, moderated, restricted) affects the team it is a part of
<zequence> I'm finding the ~ubuntustudio-dev team to be more of a packagin/bug fixing team. Not a core team, while being in that team gives you access to almost everytying
<scott-work> true
<scott-work> i was thinking of adding a -contriburs team for helping with overall development without access to the code
<zequence> If we are to have a core team, we should create on specifically, I think. And use the -dev team for what it is being used for now. Break the relations that exist now, etc
<zequence> hmm
<zequence> What priveleges would the -contributor team have then?
<scott-work> i see here http://dullass.blogspot.com/2013/01/lunchtime-thoughts-on-ubuntu-studio.html that i had thought about actually putting -contributors under ~ubuntustudio and then put everything i just mentioned above under that
<scott-work> zequence: not much, just sort of a general header to "collect" all the other teams under it
<scott-work> but it would be a team that someone who didn't do anythign specific, but didn't do code either, could join and feel they were helping to "develop" ubuntu studio
<scott-work> it would be a moderated team this way as well
<scott-work> but i'm not really hung up on the -contributors team, but i do think it could be a nice selling point to people
<zequence> Yeah, I guess it would make sense to have such a team
<zequence> It could be a team one step away from all of the teams that do code, such as -dev, -kernel and -website
<zequence> Or, even -PR
<scott-work> zequence: i really like what you did with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation#Ubuntu_Studio_Development_Release_Schedule
<zequence> scott-work: I've moved the actual schedule to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentReleaseSchedule
<zequence> Did you refresh? Maybe that is what you meant?
<zequence> I think the schedules will be very important 
<scott-work> sorry, should be this:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation
<zequence> Ah, yeah
<scott-work> i was looking at the whole page actually, not just the schdule
<zequence> It's very much work in progress
<scott-work> it's funny you made the schedule liek that, because i had been working on one in google docs as well ;)
<zequence> :)
<scott-work> i was trying to work it based on weeks prior to a milestone in ubuntu
<scott-work> i.e. +4 weeks before UDS start blueprints, +1 week have them here or there, etc
<zequence> I'm considering the options. I need to look at previous blueprints, and see how easy it would be to make a template. This format might only serve us for another 3 release, including raring, as it seem Ubuntu will be changing the release schedule completely
<scott-work> true, but we can cross that bridge when we get there :)
<zequence> I didn't consider what needs to be done before UDS. That is a good point
<zequence> ..or would be good to have done by then
<zequence> That would mean development already begins before last release is out
<zequence> or planning
<scott-work> do you think we should add a sentence or two (no more than that) on the team structure page to describe each team's purpose and responsibilities
<scott-work> (xubuntu did that for a few teams and i thought it was a fab idea)
<zequence> scott-work: I think I want to do more than that actually
<scott-work> links to stuff as well?
<zequence> I want to make it a portal to everything related to those teams. But, as compressed as possible
<zequence> At least link to a page for that team
<scott-work> yeah, that would be good
<zequence> A description, the list of members, link to schedule, link to page
<zequence> The page would be a portal to all dev docs for that team
<zequence> the specific team page, that is
<scott-work> i like it :)
<scott-work> i need to go pick up kids and head home. do you want to talk some more tomorrow?
<zequence> scott-work: I'll be online most of the time, so I'm available
<scott-work> good deal. talk to you tomorrow :)
<zequence> Alright :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-06
<zequence> hmm, I see I have access to change some teams now :P
<zequence> This is as far as I got with the team structure page. Hard to condense that stuff to take smaller amount of space https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<len-nb> micahg, -settings change done.
<len-nb> zequence, Thunar is now default, Nautilus is removed, gnome-system-monitor has been replaced with xfce4-taskmanager
<len-nb> zequence, this will show up on an update as the addition of xfce4-taskmanager. The two removed apps will be gone on the ISO, but not on an upgrade. The default will not change except for a new user.
<micahg> len-nb: need a meta upload?
<len-nb> That too :)
<micahg> ok
<micahg> len-nb: meta upload, will have to find time for -settings
<micahg> *uploaded
<len-nb> micahg, Thank you
<zequence> len-nb: I'm thinking that if we ever do start doing multiple desktop metas for Ubuntu Studio, this one could be called Xubuntu Studio :P
<zequence> Still just my brainchild, and I have not spoken with Scott about it
<len-nb> Enough people install the metas over another DE to make it worth making the settings work as wide as possible.
<zequence> I think that already happens
<zequence> And those who know Linux audio don't even bother with US metas
<zequence> Everyone has their own favorite setup
<zequence> I think the crucial part, if we ever get our custom tools setup for workflows and everything, is that it'll work on any desktop system
<len-nb> Anyway, I'm off to bed. C Ya
<zequence> len-nb: GN
<ttoine> hi guys
<ttoine> I just discovered that Stephane Letz, one of the most contributive to jackdmp is working at the Grame, an institution in my area
<ttoine> so
<ttoine> I will try to make an interview
<ttoine> would you have some questions ?
<falktx> isn't he leaving?
<falktx> I got that impression at least...
<ttoine> http://lite.framapad.org/p/5n3kYagDQA
<ttoine> falktx, perhaps, but he is still an important audio scientist in France
<ttoine> maybe he can give us some impressions, and some interesting clues about the perfect setup
<ttoine> zequence, http://lite.framapad.org/p/5n3kYagDQA
<falktx> ttoine: note that his latest work has not been for linux, but for Windows and Mac
<ttoine> the Grame is mainly working on Mac
<ttoine> I know one of the sound tech working on some projects there
<ttoine> they have intensive use of maxmsp
<ttoine> anyway, the link to the question pad is on the misc blueprint whiteboard
<ttoine> falktx, don't hesitate to add some questions, I would be happy to translate them
<falktx> when is jack3 coming? ;)
<falktx> I have questions, but they are all too technical...
<ttoine> falktx, please, write your questions on the pad, even if it is technical
<ttoine> I will do my best to get answers
<ttoine> just follow the link and the howto
<ttoine> it is very simple
<ttoine> well, I need to go
<zequence> Ah, I missed that
<zequence> Great idea for an interview
<zequence> Just got a surge warning from wiki.ubuntu.com. Telling me to slow down, or I might get locked out for a while
<zequence> Apparently, there's a limit to how fast you are allowed to work on the wiki
<astraljava> Unsurprising, considering how slow the wiki has been throughout its history. :)
<zequence> I was working on multiple pages at once, open in different tabs. Started saving them one after the other. That didn't sit well with the wiki engine
<astraljava> Heheh. Probably took that as DOS attack. :)
<zequence> Things are really getting pretty organized now. Each team has their own wiki page. Some teams have blueprints, and are subscribed to them. 
<zequence> Waiting for Scott to come online so I can discuss changing a few more things. 
<zequence> I updated the team structure page again today https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<zequence> Soon all that is missing is team members
<zequence> ..well, a bunch of docs too before that
<scott-work> good morning everyone :)
<zequence> scott-work: Hi manm
<zequence> man*
<zequence> I've been busy all day writing wiki pages
<zequence> scott-work: Have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<scott-work> wow! that's looking really good. you have a much better eye for presentation that i do :)
<smartboyhw> Hello:)
<scott-work> good job, zequence
<scott-work> morning smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> zequence, you do really know how to plan things:)
<zequence> Thanks. There's still plenty to do, but I'm finding the format falling into place now
<zequence> scott-work: I started subscribing teams to their correct blueprints. Started linking it all up, so to speak
 * smartboyhw got at least 3 subscribing emails today
<zequence> scott-work: I'd like to remove the mail list for ~ubuntustudio-testers, and have them not subscribe to bugs anymore. 
 * smartboyhw agrees
<zequence> scott-work: I have the ~ubuntustudio-bugs team for that. I'm thinking it doesn't need to be a workitem/blueprint based theme, but just a nice way to subscribe to Ubuntu Studio related bugs. YOu become a member, you get bug reports.
<zequence> not theme. team
<scott-work> zequence: i agree with moving that over
<smartboyhw> :)
<zequence> scott-work: Also, I think we should create a core team, which has power of adjusting teams. The -dev team I think should only be used for getting privelege to branches
<zequence> So, the core team would own or manage all the other teams. The -dev team would only have priveleges inside itself
<zequence> I went ahead and created a documentation team today. We still need to create "contributors team" and "PR/Support" team. I also think we should create a "Art" launchpad team which would own branches for art stuff
<smartboyhw> zequence, will there be too many teams?
<zequence> smartboyhw: No
<smartboyhw> zequence, eh?
<zequence> We should use the launchpad teams functionality more. Each team will have privileges, or be subscribed to relevant material
<zequence> Each team is a sort of portal to that specific area of responsibilies
<zequence> Subscribing teams to blueprints is actually a very good method for making sure team members are made aware of what's going on
<zequence> Some teams don't have blueprints though. It all depends on what the team is doing
<zequence> The nightly team does seem like a strange team to me. That could just as well be the -dev team. All it does is has a PPA
<zequence> smartboyhw: The idea is we get more people involved. Each team needs to be able to operate independently as much as possible. If we don't have a good structure in place, with clear communications, it's hard to get that working
<zequence> As soon as all of this structuring and doc writing is at a stage when someone could more or less jump in and start working - getting info, news and docs easily for what they want to work on, we could start announcing for participants on our different channels
<zequence> With all these billions of people in the world, surely there must be a few wanting to participate
<smartboyhw> zequence, I think that the -nightly team should get killed. The PPA isn't used anymore anyway
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's being used, but not for us
<smartboyhw> zequence, the old days:P
<zequence> Last build attempt was 4 weeks ago
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh?
 * smartboyhw goes to see why:P
<smartboyhw> And failed
<zequence> But, I agree. I don't see a point in having that team. Those builds could be done on any PPA
 * smartboyhw agrees
<astraljava> I think I removed something that had been failing for the past couple of years or so. I'm fairly sure rexbron was the sole users who had set up anything there. He said he had no use for at least that one failing build anymore. Not sure about the rest.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm looking to try get more testers. At least, we need to have a good quatily Beta testing period. Until then, we are a little lacking in docs. 
<zequence> ISO testing is not required that often
<smartboyhw> zequence, I will post something soon about 12.04.2 testing
<zequence> But, we could use more workflow testing.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Not just for a short period, but really try to get people join our testing team, and communicate directly with us
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm not saying you should try to get more testers right now, or anything. Just telling you in advance what my plans are, and that I plan to write docs for this to happen
<zequence> If you have any ideas about docs and whatelse, just let me know
<smartboyhw> good
<zequence> Going home. bb in a couple of hours
<smartboyhw> zequence, see ya
<ttoine> scott-work, http://lite.framapad.org/p/5n3kYagDQA
<scott-work> zequence: smartboyhw : we are not in control of that team, rexbron is. but i *do* want to get ubuntustudio-dev not a member of that team though
<scott-work> ttoine: that would be exceedingly exciting to interview stephane
<scott-work> i presume you want me to add some questions. i'll see what i can do throughout my work day
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ok
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i'm just saying we can't nuke (delete or terminate) this team as it isn't ours, but we can sever ties with it
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ok
<ttoine> scott-work, yes, the aim is that the team ad some questions
<ttoine> I will see him next week, but the date is not fixed
<zequence> scott-work: So, what do you think of adding a core team? It would make sense to have one team only for administering other teams
<scott-work> zequence: i'm not sure. what sort of admin activities would they do? should we make an unofficial "core team" and have them as admin members across all teams?
<scott-work> i don't feel strongly one way or the other, just talking outloud right now
<zequence> scott-work: I don't think the -dev team is supposed to be admin of other teams. And members of -dev don't need access to lot's of other stuff
<zequence> scott-work: -core would administer other teams, register blueprints, etc
<zequence> It would function as the Ubuntu Studio launchpad admin team
<zequence> I'm suggesting to create one, and make it owner of all other teams
<zequence> Then add those people to the -core team that have it as their duty to administer those teams. Currently, it would be you and me
<zequence> All of the teams should be separate what privileges are concerned. If you're a member of -dev, you don't get access to -kernel-team or -website. It would just be a cleaner way to administer rights
<zequence> scott-work: In short, my vision of the launchpad team structure is: -core would own all official teams. No other teams would have privileges outside their own team
<zequence> Each team, other then -core, would only have prileges related to the team
<zequence> -core members do blueprint drafting, and administer the teams.
<zequence> scott-work: Logging off. Will look at logs tomorrow, and continue working on the wiki.
<scott-work> zequence: sorry, webchat died on me and then i got busy at work
<scott-work> i'll check the logs myself and respond. have a good night :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-07
<smartboyhw> Hey yo scott-work 
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw 
<zequence> scott-work: Did you think more about the LP teams?
<scott-work> zequence: yeah, i'm okay with what you are proposing.
<scott-work> one thing we need to do is get -dev out of -nightly still
<zequence> scott-work: Then what we need to do is more or less, you create a ubuntustudio-core team. Then make it the owner of all other teams. Add me as a member. I promise, I won't make any changes without being absolutely sure it's what we want
<zequence> A guy on LP was looking to become a member of the -website team. I messaged him. Hope he'll turn up here some time
<zequence> He's mostly been active with bug reporting so far. Seems interested in US, so a potential dev maybe
<zequence> scott-work: We should ask Andrew Hunter to kick the -dev team, then
<zequence> Ok, time to go home. 4pm already. I'll be visiting a friend today, so will take a few hours before I'm online again
<scott-work> i'll email rexbron today about dropping -dev from -nightly, i can't seem to do it myself for some reason
<zequence> scott-work: Doesn't seem to be possible for the team to drop itself, from what I've seen
<zequence> scott-work: Any chance you might have time to do the team admin stuff today? I'm a little eager to set it all up and finish the work on the wiki too :P
<scott-work> sorry, yes. i will get that in about thirty minutes
<zequence> ah, great
<zequence> Just updating the kernels again. Must be for the 4th or fifth time
<ttoine> zequence, http://lite.framapad.org/p/5n3kYagDQA
<zequence> ttoine: Nice. It would really be interesting to get an inside look into a possible jack3
<ttoine> zequence, did you write some questions ? feel free
<zequence> Ok, will think about it
<ttoine> the interview is wednesday
<zequence> ttoine: Ah, great
<zequence> ttoine: I wonder if he uses Linux at all
<ttoine> I know that Grame used a lot good old Mac G5
<ttoine> I will ask what kind of hardware they use know
<zequence> ttoine: I need to go to sleep now, but will think about more questions. I'll notify you if I come up with something
<zequence> We should do more of those interviews further ahead
<zequence> It's something that you don't see a lot, I think
<zequence> People like Paul Davis, Rui, and why not falktx :)
<zequence> Just doing those would also put a lot of attention on our news channels
<zequence> I think that would be a very important step towards also getting more people involved with Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> alright, see you tomorrow, maybe :)
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> that's why I do that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-08
<scott-work> zequence: sorry, i didn't make that team. if you tell what you want it named i'll do it right now
 * smartboyhw now goes and sends out announcements about 12.04.2 testing
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ^
<falktx> when is the release day?
<smartboyhw> falktx, next Thursday
<falktx> 14th?
<smartboyhw> Valentine's day? Wait I n eed to check then
<smartboyhw> falktx, true
<falktx> ok, thanks
<smartboyhw> scott-work, astraljava jussi please help me to update the topic to include 12.04.2 testing
<jussi> smartboyhw: tell me what you want there...
<smartboyhw> jussi, add "Please test Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 images at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/254/builds " at the end of topic
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i'm not sure there is much additional to test. i think the biggest thing is a new kernel version, isn't it?
<scott-work> perhaps my memory is not what i remember it to be :P
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yep. I will check which version it is in the archive
* jussi changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04 LTS is released: http://goo.gl/FEAxP | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ | Please test Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 images at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/254/builds
<smartboyhw> jussi, thx
<jussi> yw
<smartboyhw> zequence, what is the upstream kernel version for the latest Precise kernel?
<ttoine> hi all
<ttoine> http://lite.framapad.org/p/5n3kYagDQA
<smartboyhw> Hey ttoine 
<ttoine> smartboyhw, if you have questions about jackd, please have a look at the link
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I don't have questions about jackd2, I have questions on the latest Precise linux-lowlatency kernel
<ttoine> smartboyhw, ;-)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, do you want the testing annoucement to go on ubuntustudio.org?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i think this should go out on all available channels :)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, OK. I will send out the annoucement now in the mailing list. However can you confirm that it is OK?
<scott-work> i would be happy to do that
<smartboyhw> scott-work, http://paste.kde.org/667562/
<smartboyhw> scott-work, one interesting thing is that the 12.04.2 release day is Valentine's day
<scott-work> year of the snake coming up, isn't it? the color black?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ah LOL..........
<smartboyhw> scott-work, what do you mean about the color?
<scott-work> the email looks fine. feel free to put your name first if you want as you are doing most of the work ;)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, no you are the lead:)
<smartboyhw> I knew my positions
<scott-work> i think the color details the type of business prosperity (i'm probably screwing this all up) for the year 
<scott-work> ah..."There are different colors of snakes. The color this year is black. Black indicates the water of this snake runs deep."
<smartboyhw> scott-work, damn I just sent it with red color:P
<smartboyhw> Anyway the Chinese likes red
<smartboyhw> And Valentine's Day is red:P
<scott-work> not that this sentence means anything to me...lol
<scott-work> true...valentines day and red :)
<smartboyhw> Now making the post on Ubuntu Studio
<scott-work> i sent an g+ message to leo laporte telling him he shoudl have a linux howto show about everything from general desktop usage through content creation
<smartboyhw> good
<smartboyhw> *Ubuntu Studio website
<scott-work> as of yet, i am not whisked away from my current company and employed by the twit network :(
<scott-work> sounds good smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> scott-work, next one: Ubuntu Forums Ubuntu Studio section
<scott-work> feel free to post it on the g+ pages, facebook, etc
<scott-work> i'll fill in the gaps as necessary
<smartboyhw> scott-work, Please do the fb one
<scott-work> i may have to do that one from home, my work has a block of fb, twitter, etc and i'm not sure i really want to do it on my phone
<smartboyhw> scott-work, we need to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio 
<smartboyhw> especially the kernel
<smartboyhw> since we
<smartboyhw> are still using 3.2
<scott-work> smartboyhw: can you update that?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ok. But I thought it was zequence's job since he's the doc lead:P
<smartboyhw> And the kernel lead:P
<smartboyhw> scott-work, is the miminum system requirement of Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 having 512 MB RAM correct? Just follow main Ubuntu desktop?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: oh, good point. if you want to wait for him, that is okay, but i would think updating this shoudln't be that big of deal
<scott-work> smartboyhw: yes, i would probably mirror what ubuntu is doing for ram
<smartboyhw> scott-work, then that is 386 MB RAM
<smartboyhw> scott-work, you're sure?
<scott-work> oh, that's probably not very good. yeah, 512 min is better
<scott-work> thank you for point out ubuntu has such a low minimum
<smartboyhw> scott-work, update completed
<scott-work> smartboyhw: thank you :)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, :)
<zequence> scott-work: Hi. Just got home
<scott-work> zequence: no problems. i completely got wrapped up and then pulled away from work early yesterday
<zequence> scott-work: I kind of gathered :). I just created the -core team, and made you admin
<zequence> Going to make it owner of all teams I have admin rights over.
<zequence> ..or, going to see about that now, anyway
<zequence> Yeah, change details -> chance owner (at the bottom)
<scott-work> zequence: cool, let me know which ones you have trouble with
<scott-work> i just sent andrew (rexbron) another email, i had done so months ago, about getting -dev out of -nightly
<scott-work> i believe it's causing us  to be 'restricted' instead of 'moderated' team
<scott-work> do we want to participate in alpha 2 for raring? i kinda would like to do it.
<zequence> scott-work: ~ubuntustudio, ~ubuntustudio-kernel-team. ~ubuntustudio-dev, ~ubuntustudio-testing, ~ubuntustudio-website, ~irc-ubuntustudio-ops
<zequence> scott-work: Why alpha 2?
<zequence> scott-work: I'm kind of liking that we only do the beta, but we need to make sure to test the ISOs now and then
<scott-work> zequence: are you having trouble with those teams?
<zequence> scott-work: I can't change ownership of teams that I don't own :)
<zequence> So, all of those
<scott-work> just to be clear: you want me to set the owner of these teams as ubuntustudio-core ?
<zequence> scott-work: Yes
<zequence> Ah, let me change ownership of -core to you, btw
<zequence> Like so
<scott-work> all done except the irc team, zequence. the irc council is owner of that team
<zequence> scott-work: Aha. Ok :). Well, great. 
<scott-work> hmmm, i was able to change -dev back to a moderated team. i don't think we used to be able to do that
<zequence> scott-work: Ok. I think I'd like to remove membership between the teams. -core is automatically member of them all. Don't think there's a need for any other to be members of anything
<zequence> Not super important, but it just isolated priveleges, and makes it easier to know who can do what
<zequence> If there are branches that need to be owned by a specific team, and they're not, then we move them
<zequence> I'll remove -website and -kernel from -dev.
<zequence> I don't foresee any problems with that?
<scott-work> yeah, that was bothering me too :P
<scott-work> afk lunch
<zequence> scott-work: bon appetit
<zequence> scott-work: I'm sure ScottK could give you a good reason for using Alphas. I haven't talked with him, or anything, but it seems to me he is one of those who likes to have it
<zequence> Should we change the icon to the new darker blue one. I've used it on some teams already, but that was more or less temporary
<zequence> I'm thinking just a change might be nice. Gives you the impression of progress, if nothing else :P
<zequence> Or, maybe it's an old icon. I don't even know
<zequence> An example of the other icon is https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-documentation-team
<scott-work> zequence: i'm good with no alpha, i just miss it somewhat. we'll stick with just the betas then and i'll email back
<zequence> scott-work: I created the PR team, for two reasons. It to subscribe to the PR blueprint, and it gets editor, but not admin rights on our website
<zequence> I'm thinking that team should be the one for all PR and social communications
<zequence> Would be nice if someone with .css skills would like to create a nice reusable wiki menu for us :P
<zequence> I think I started something, but I seem to have forgotten the link
<zequence> found it
<scott-work> zequence: i had a menu thing started here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
<scott-work> it's a little bit down th epage
<scott-work> i thought i had managed to reduce others code to get the corner done as well
<scott-work> i'm going home now, everyone have a good weekend
<zequence> Cool. Loads of material
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-09
<smartboyhw> Good morning
<holstein> Len-nb: http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-audio-users/msg89436.html
<holstein> i dont know how i found that, but i like it :)
<smartboyhw> Hey holstein 
<holstein> smartboyhw: o/
<Len-nb> holstein, Once in a while I do ok. I found the infographic at the link in the message interesting from another point of view.
<smartboyhw> Hey Len-nb  how are ya?
<Len-nb> My wife works with older people, often with dementia. So we have studied the effects of music on these people.
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, I am well.
<Len-nb> holstein,  music helps people with dementia keep their memory longer or remember things they have forgotten.
<Len-nb> That article shows why, it activates so much more of the brain than just talk.
<Len-nb> The truth is that a lot of them don't get much talk either.
<Len-nb> My wife sings music from before her time (50/60s) to them and it seems to help.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, can ubuntustudio-icon-theme be SRUed to Precise one day!?
<smartboyhw> I'm testing the 12.04.2 ISOs and it still shows a Xubuntu icon...
<smartboyhw> Maybe micahg can help with that
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, it would require it's own version of icons I think
<Len-nb> There was a version of ubuntustudio-icon-theme in repo at the time. That may effect things.
<Len-nb> Also you would have to make changes to -settings as well.
<Len-nb>  It is not a one tweak fix.
<Len-nb> Could be done though.
<holstein> Len-nb: that is awesome
<Len-nb> holstein, My wife is studying nursing right now. She has a compassion for people that is amazing.
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, The first step would be to finish what has already been done on the precise version of settings. I think (but am not sure) That the new icon-theme would work for the install as is. (going back to one of the earlier versions that just had the distro icon may help make things easier)
<Len-nb> then add the default icon-theme change to the setting package.
<Len-nb> (the settings package forked for precise)
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, the settings package we have now will not work with precise, it has to be the fork.
<Lumpy> ello ello
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, ok
<smartboyhw> Lumpy, hello
<Len-nb> Hello Lumpy 
<Lumpy> how are yas tonight?
 * Lumpy is currently streaming
<smartboyhw> zequence, PING
<zequence> smartboyhw: pong
<smartboyhw> zequence, can you check the release notes of Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio to check nothing is wrong?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Did you erase the previous one? I think it would be a better practice to create new pages each time
<zequence> smartboyhw: What's the diff between this and the previous release notes?
<smartboyhw> zequence, the problem is: This "practice" of using the original release notes page is same for other flavours
<smartboyhw> zequence, ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio?action=diff&rev2=14&rev1=11
<smartboyhw> You will find the "StartPreciseReleaseNotesFeatures" strange
<smartboyhw> but then the kernel is different from us
<smartboyhw> They are using a 3.5 kernel from quantal in Ubuntu Desktop, we are still using 3.2
<smartboyhw> So I copied the contents and changed the kernel bit 
<smartboyhw> (And the DVD size bit)
<zequence> Looks gine to me
<zequence> fine*
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah:)
<smartboyhw> zequence, thx for approving
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's given. I'm not done adjusting teams yet, so things may change during the process
<smartboyhw> ok
<zequence> holstein: smartboyhw: I'm removing you from the -website team, but you are given privileges to post on the website through the PR team instead
<zequence> So, just a heads up
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh OK. Inform ttoine too:)
<zequence> hmm, yes. ttoine is active with updating WP, but it doesn't seem he is involved with design and development of the website, so removing him too
<smartboyhw> zequence, I confirm using the ubuntustudio-public-relations team to log in works
<smartboyhw> I mean in the website
<zequence> smartboyhw: Good
<smartboyhw> Chinese New Year coming in 3:10 hours
<smartboyhw> scott-work, hey
<smartboyhw> Chinese New Year in 1 hour!!!!!!
<len-1304> zequence, just sent a copy of email to our list. It seems there are some more things RSU of jackd2 might fix. And some things to test for.
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw , how are you doing today?
<scott-work> hi len-1304 
<smartboyhw> scott-work, good
<smartboyhw> len-1304, remember to test the 12.04.2 images
<len-1304> GM scott-work 
<zequence> len-1304: I'm only doing an SRU of the patch that fixes that one bug
<len-1304> But it is a patch against which jackd2?
<zequence> The one in quantal
<len-1304> For both 12.04 and 12.10?
<len-1304> SO what is happening with 13.04? is there a new jackd?
<zequence> len-1304: Yes, there's a new version
 * len-1304 wonders when the new PA will show up.
<zequence> And I was trying to keep the SRU simple, by making sure there was no need for updating any dependencies for jackd
<len-1304> zequence, does the new version have the fixes in it?
<len-1304> I would guess that anyone who updated to 12.10 will also go to 13.04
<len-1304> Anyone using 12.04 also has the option of using kxstudio's jackd package.
<zequence> kxstudio packages won't fix ubuntu bugs, so that is not a solution for anyone anyway. Plus, kxstudio only ships jack2
<zequence> And, doesn't support PA at all
<len-1304> zequence, I am wondering if there are some subtle changes (or not so subtle)  in newer hardware that is causing problems.
<zequence> The important thing is we fix the LTS
<len-1304> Yup.
<zequence> And you always need to SRU stepwise, going back one release at the time
<len-1304> Wish we had 20 more people...
<len-1304> (all full time)
<smartboyhw> zequence,len-1304  actually not that we need 20 more people, we need 2-3 more MOTUs to help packaging:P
<zequence> We really only need one with upload rights to begin with
<zequence> But, to get docs written, workflows well worked out, etc, we need someone for each of those areas
<len-1304> That too. But I would like to see 2 or 3 people (or more) studying the kernel with respect to audio and doing patches on audio apps.
<len-1304> I would like to see someone or two studying the way new HW affects audio apps too.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, that is a LOT
<smartboyhw> From kernel we have zequence 
<smartboyhw> From hardware I think we have ttoine 
<len-1304> The whole linux audio setup needs help.
<len-1304> I would like to see more people just doing ALSA drivers.
<smartboyhw> Anyone thought of a best way to ask for contributors?
<len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw, scott-work, I have forwarded a copy of an email sent to me. There are people working on other audio distros who are willing to work on workflow docs together.
<scott-work> woohoo
<scott-work> that's kinda exciting, innit?
<smartboyhw> len-1304, good
<len-1304> At the very least, I would guess each of us should document our own particular workflow.
<zequence> That doc is a lot more thorough than I would have ever felt motivated to do for Ubuntu Studio.
<zequence> It would make sense to have LAU doc base like that
<len-1304> It would be great if it was distro agnostic.
<zequence> Yes
<len-1304> As he says it is a bit dated.
<smartboyhw> Happy Chinese New Year!!!
<zequence> Happy New Year smartboyhw 
<zequence> We don't have anyone writing docs for us right now, but me, so it's sort of the same situation as for Fedora
<zequence> I'm not looking to write a full reference for all Linux audio, just a practical guide for helping users to get going, quickly
<zequence> And, frankly, I have very little time for these things, as it is
<len-1304> Ya, but we (the linux audio community) needs this too.
<zequence> Right now, I'm doing a sort of side project. Trying to get a HP OpenVMS system working. A friend is a beer brewer. Bough equipment from Germany for his company. The computer controls the machine, but no one has a password. I can't reset it without a "@" symbol. Getting some help with this now :P
<zequence> Not finding a way to produce that symbol, namely
<len-1304> VMS is fun :P  I will say it is good for machine control though.
<zequence> len-1304: I'm all for it, but I won't be able to contribute to that any time soon
<zequence> I wish I knew the VMS console tools a little better. I feel cripled
<len-1304> There is lots of help right from the console as I remember
<len-1304> type help
<len-1304> Mind I was using the official DEC VMS
<zequence> I'm setting kbd stuff. Let's see if that helps
<astraljava> zequence: I'm not sure I understand the problem correctly. Is it that the key mapping won't allow you to type the @ symbol?
<zequence> astraljava: Some weird problem with how the VSM console worked. German layout wouldn't allow any way of producing the "@" symbol. I was able to change layout to US. Problem solved
<astraljava> Oh ok, cool.
<zequence> Been working on a header for the wiki. The content is rubbish, but the layout is what I'm after right now. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<len-1304> zequence, Sure makes it look like there are a lot of us :)  The layout is fine, I was able to find anything I wanted.
<zequence> len-1304: Ah, yeah. The teams. I put some thought into that. We have a lot of teams yes, but they are also logically used. Each is an actual launchpad team, with certaing privileges and subscriptions, so joining a team makes it easy to connect with the important stuff right away
<zequence> I'm still working on that. The idea is each team can have their own docs and space as much as possible, so that you don't need to know much of what others are doing to do you what you want to do. At the same time, overview is easy for the project lead, and other leads
<len-1304> I was not being critical in any way. I think it works well. I hope our people grow to fill it more.
<len-1304> You can link my name to https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks if you wish. (or if you think is is wise)
<zequence> That works, sure
<zequence> You can also create your own wiki page, if you want
<len-1304> Sounds like work :P
<zequence> I'm making a push now to try finish up the wiki as much as possible. Try getting docs for all important areas. Then, start thinking about PR posts and try get people to join us. We already have quite a few members in ~ubuntustudio at launchpad. Some of those might just need a little push to get going. At least, that's what I'm hoping for
<len-1304> zequence, I have seen a number of messages on LAU about people installing newer versions of US and other audio distros and having really bad performance.
<len-1304> I find it hard to believe as I am running an old system and getting better performance.
<zequence> len-1304: Wouldn't hurt to find out the cause
<len-1304> My thought is that a number of them at the same time have gotten new MBs and other system bits.
<len-1304> zequence, I am wondering if there is something in the newer chipsets that is just bad for lowlatency audio.
<zequence> The north bridge is getting a lot more efficient at sharing resources, I think
<zequence> Integrated graphics, and what else
<zequence> In the CPU even
<zequence> I'm not very good at the details surrounding that, but I've seen some change, sure. 
<len-1304> PCIe is new sinse my board.
<zequence> PCIe is connected to the north bridge, and is why I think it should be preferred for audio
<zequence> I have no clue about this, and interaction with Linux, drivers, etc
<len-1304> Ya, but I wonder if it is making PCI or USB or FW audio interfaces worse.
<zequence> Could be
<zequence> I guess that depends on drivers, probably
<len-1304> I think the wireless driver on my netbook is dealing with the hardware as best as it can. I think the hardware is inherently anti-lowlatency. That for some operations it grabs a bus for too long.
<len-1304> I would like to know what is happening in the windows world... or is it so badly hidden as to be un-noticed
<len-1204> zequence, qjackctl defaults to 44.1k but ardour defaults to 48k. Interesting.
<zequence> len-1204: upstream qjackctl defaults to 48k as well
<len-1204> zequence, never noticed this before, in ardour what is the difference in track mode from normal to tape
<zequence> The package has a patch to change that one option
<zequence> len-1204: Not sure about that one. Perhaps some sort of performance tuning? I recollect something similar on Cubase
<len-1204> One of the ubuntu devs (vanilla) has a USB sound device that only accepts 44.1k
<len-1204> He is very sure 44.1 k is the standard.
<zequence> audio device from OZ
<zequence> len-1204: Who is this, exactly?
<len-1204> Realistically 44.1k limits audio band to 18k
<len-1204> I'm don't remember, they did leave a message on our list when I suggested 48000 should be standard in pulse as well as jack :)
<zequence> Yes, because of the filter
<zequence> It's easy to forget that 10k to 20k is only one octave
<zequence> I've done too little mixing to appreciate anything above 10k. Mostly, I find there's not much interesting happening there
<len-1204> Anyway, I think all our jack stuff should default to 48k
<len-1204> Pretty much that is true. any of the dynamic mics (including ribbons only go up to 15k
<len-1204> 15 to 20k only shows up with a good condenser mic
<len-1204> I'm doing 12.04.2 testing right now. Jack still has the hard stop bug.
<zequence> My SRU has not been looked at yet. The bug report is active, and ready
<zequence> The next step is for the SRU team to have a look, and upload jackd to -proposed
<len-1204> Ya, I figured.
<len-1204> I can see the tree/list mode in the old nautilus.
<zequence> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLBrBBImJt4
<zequence> I like this Greg guy
<SzArAk> Hello. Just joining the channel to look around and find out what's going on in ubuntu studio recently :)
<zequence> SzArAk: Welcome
<SzArAk> so just saying "Hi!" :)
<SzArAk> zequence: thank you.
<zequence> SzArAk: It's just called #ubuntustudio :)
<SzArAk> zequence: thanks :>
<len-1204> zequence, good video.
<len-1204> I don't like pulse 1.1 (in 12.04) any more, 2.* and 3.* have spoiled me.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-10
<len-1204> smartboyhw, I have tested 12.04.2 live, but I have nothing to install to right now. My kids are using my 16 drive and my 40G has 13.04 with data and partial testing done on it.
<smartboyhw> len-1204, uh oh:P
<smartboyhw> Fine:)
<len-1204> Anyway, live looks good
<smartboyhw> zequence, how are ya?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Quite ok. Just about to eat some dinner and go recording some drums later
<smartboyhw> zequence, nice
<zequence> smartboyhw: How are the new year celebrations going?
<smartboyhw> zequence, quite good. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-03
<zequence> I'm probably not the only one experiencing connection issues today. 
* pratchett.freenode.net changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | find Ubuntu Studio stable Releases at https://ubuntustudio.org/download/ | latest current ISO http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/
<zequence> debian multimedia meta packages, similar to ours have appeared
<zequence> packages starting with multimedia-*
<zequence> apt-cache search multimedia | grep multimedia-
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-04
<zequence> cub: Hi
<cub> hi zequence 
<cub> how's life?
<zequence> Pretty ok. Working hard on the next version of -controls
<cub> nice
<cub> hmm the usual suspects in this chatroom have declined
<zequence> Adding some basic jack and pulseaudio controls. Trying to integrate everything into one, and making it possible to run everything at login
<zequence> ddos attack yesterday, is what I heard
<cub> yeah I read in the logs about that. That is going to be nice. 
<cub> well not the ddos, the phrase before that.
<zequence> Yep
<zequence> I'm only worried about all sorts of bugs that appear when *hoping* things will just work
<cub> :D
<zequence> I'm going to add on the fly changing of samplerate and buffersize
<cub> I should try to do as much testing as possible
<zequence> Also, a debug tool, so whenever someone has a problem, we ask them to install -controls, click a button, and we get to know everything we need in one try
<cub> how do you mean on the fly?
<zequence> Without restarting jack
<zequence> Like Ardour does it, with buffer size, at least
<cub> is that necessary? At least with my usb card I will have to detach and attach it again to change sample rate
<zequence> Or, if it needs to be restarted, I make that happen -but with a notificiation
<zequence> Really?
<cub> yes since it's set on the card with a switch
<zequence> Well, that's the sort of thing one *hopes* will just work
<zequence> linux-lowlatency, a complete new build, is available in the trusty repos
<zequence> It's now apart of the Canonical master source
<zequence> I'm going to try it out later today
<cub> cool, so you won't need to do future updates?
<TheDrums> Thought I saw that, congrats.
<zequence> I won't need to bother about the SRUs. I'm still the maintainer of the config diff though
<zequence> So, we should do some testing, especially with newer kernels, and make sure they perform to our liking
<zequence> !paste
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<zequence> This is what it looks like now http://imagebin.org/290896
<zequence> Unfortunately, indicator-app doesn't support a lot of Gtk goodies, so I'm not able to add stuff like volume control. Not the way I'm coding it at least
<zequence> Just menus with text and no pictures. I don't like it, but it's a start
<cub> zequence, that looks reaaaally good!
<zequence> For Connections I'm using patchage
<cub> zequence, any plans for a Stockholm visit?
<zequence> cub: I go there sometimes. Don't know when next time. I'll let you know
<zequence> cub: Let me know if you come to GBG
<cub> absolutely, no plans at the moment though
<cub> I might get an office space soon in a large shared office with artists, designers, muscicians etc
<cub> it would be cool to promote Ubuntu Studio there
<cub> their plan is to have small workshops where everyon can join bi-weekly or monthly
<zequence> Cool
<cub> yeah, it would be awesome to have a couple of filmmakers, designers, artists to try out the applications and workflows
<knome> i'm so waiting that cmyk stuff lands properly in linux :)
<knome> eg. REAL cmyk working space/export for inkscape would be <3
<knome> then i could almost drop photoshop out of my workflow for good...
<cub> hey knome, you should also head over here if/when I get an office there to tell people the awesomeness of xubuntu
<cub> it's right beside where the ferries acnhor!
<knome> hehe, we'll see
<knome> but: sure, why not, if time and other things allow
<cub> we'll see how things pan out :)
<knome> yep
<knome> zequence, i left a small comment on your dev application wikipage :)
<zequence> knome: Thanks, man :)
<knome> np!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-06
<ttoine> hello
<zequence> ttoine: Hi
<zequence> What's up?
<ttoine> zequence, I am fine
<ttoine> and you ?
<zequence> Ok. I'm testing 14.04.04. I think it will be released today
<zequence> 12.04.4, I mean
<ttoine> ah
<ttoine> I had a chat with developers of pitivi
<zequence> ok?
<ttoine> and I see that the latest version, 0.92, is available in debian stable
<ttoine> you think it is possible to push it in 14.04 ?
<zequence> Sure
<zequence> I'll add it right now.
<zequence> I will be going through our entire seeds in a few days
<zequence> Jeez. Need to clean those up
<zequence> Ok, done
<zequence> should end up in the next build
<ttoine> zequence, really ??
<ttoine> very good news !
<ttoine> you know when the next build will be available ?
<zequence> ttoine: If not today, some time tomorrow probably, but if you want to try it, just download trusty and install it separately
<zequence> I noticed it was also available for saicy, though probably an older version
<ttoine> zequence, yes, a very, very old version
<ttoine> 0.15
<ttoine> I will notify pitivi developer that the latest version should be sync soon for 14.04
<zequence> ttoine: It happens automatically
<ttoine> great !
<zequence> if it's in the debian repo, it is autoimported to the latest devel version of Ubuntu
<knome> well DIF is today...
<ttoine> which debian repo ?
<zequence> ttoine: unsable
<zequence> unstable*
<ttoine> ok, I'll check that
<zequence> ttoine: rmadison pitivi
<zequence> 0.15.2-0.2ubuntu1 in trusty
<zequence> also in unstable
<zequence> ttoine: It is the packager who must update the package in Debian
<zequence> ok, it is updated in the experimental repo
<zequence> So, it's underway
<zequence> http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=pitivi&searchon=names&suite=experimental&section=all
<zequence> Won't reach trusty though
<zequence> ttoine: I think we should start a ppa for doing our own backports for selected software
<zequence> It's not easy getting in backports for Ubuntu releases.
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> zequence,  so it will not be in 14.04
<ttoine> ?
<ttoine> zequence, having our own backport is something I always would have, but previous team leader didn't want to
<zequence> ttoine: No, it won't be in 14.04, because it is not promoted to unstable, and we now come into Debian import freeze
<zequence> So, to have a newer version, we need to do a backport. But since backporting is not easy to get approved for many applications, the easiest way is to create an unofficial repo
<zequence> I'm thinking of adding this to the new version of controls - the ability to add a ubuntustudio ppa, making it clear that it is a bit volotile (in theory)
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> would it be a lot of work to maintain such a PPA ?
<zequence> ttoine: Not really
<zequence> I prefer to put most of my effort on a LTS release, and keep updating it
<zequence> especially now, when the interim releases are only supported for 9 months, and who knows what will happen to them after trusty
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> sure
<zequence> If we get the new version of ubuntustudio-controls in place, with the ability to update from our own repo, then we can more easily manage our own customizations that way. But, it needs to be done with caution and respect, of course
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-07
<cub> Hi all
<TheDrums> Howdy.
<cub> I read the discussion yesterday about backports and ppa
<cub> I think it might be a good idea with a Ubuntu Studio official ppa. That way people can get newer versions of apps in the LTS releases. Like Ardour3 in 12.04.
<cub> as an example
<cub> might be more to support though.
<knome> zequence, you might be interested in the dicsussion on #xubuntu-devel right now (color calibrations)
<zequence> cub: Hi.
<zequence> knome: Thanks. I'll drop by
<zequence> cub: Yes, I think it might be a good idea to enable updates on packages that are impossible to do regular backports on
<zequence> ..through a ppa, that is
<zequence> if there are bugs, those should be fixed with patches and SRUs
<zequence> ardour3 is one example of a package that we could have offered our users much earlier, had we done the PPA thing
<zequence> I was preparing to backport it, but because it had so many dependencies that also needed to be backported, it didn't seem likely to happen
<zequence> for simpler packages, such as our own, backporting should be trivial
<cub> that's what I've seen most from users. "I want to use the LTS but I also want version x.xx of Yyyyy"
<TheDrums> Darkice isn't really your type of application, though right?
<TheDrums> cub: Makes sense, stable core but not stale applications.
<cub> hehe I actually looked into darkice a few weeks ago to use as a dyi baby monitor.
<TheDrums> Hah, nice.
<cub> I didn't follow through though. :)
<TheDrums> Did you try with jack?
<cub> zequence: do you know if ttoine was going to look into getting Ubuntu Studio stickers?
<cub> TheDrums: I never tried it. I did some reading but wanted to find something that would do both video and sound
<cub> and then I ran out of time.
<TheDrums> Gotcha.
<zequence> cub: Don't really remember. I think so
<cub> I'm moving into that office complex, I talked about earlier, this weekend and it would be nice to put up some stickers. :)
<zequence> cub: You could drop a mail to the man about it
<cub> yup
<cub> zequence: on http://ubuntustudio.org/2014/02/ubuntu-studio-12-04-4-precise-pangolin-point-release/ there's a small typo in "The ISO is avilable at our download page."
<cub> and if someone could update the topic in #ubuntustudio
<TheDrums> zequence: If you were looking for access in #ubuntustudio, https://launchpad.net/~irc-ubuntustudio-ops/+join
<zequence> TheDrums: Cool. had not seen that team before :P
<TheDrums> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-04
<ttoine> hello
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-05
<zequence> Someone is selling Desktops with Ubuntu Studio 14.04.1 preinstalled http://www.solidstatedelivery.com/
<holstein> cool!
<holstein> you can ask for it at most of the resellers..
<zequence> holstein: To have a custom Linux distro installed, or particularly Ubuntu Studio?
<zequence> I told him to get in touch if he had any feedback, the guy behind the custom PCs. 
<zequence> I'm a little surprised he's using AMD processor with integrated graphics. Just yesterday I had a laptop that I couldn
<zequence> ..couldn't get the extra VGA or HDMI to work at all
<zequence> I haven't tried with non-free drivers yet, but still, I often find AMD graphics to pose a problem
<holstein> zequence: correct.. you can specify you want studio, or xubuntu.. or whatever
<holstein> at least, thats what i was told on the phone with the few i called.. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-06
<zequence> holstein: Cool
<OvenWerks> zequence: The last bit of talk on the other channel about: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/10/msg00005.html would indicate there are some applications that may be best replaced.
<OvenWerks> The poster mentioned lv2rack, but may have meant jack-rack
<OvenWerks> There seems to be no replacement for jack-rack, so if the package remains and it works we shouold use it still. If one of falktx's packages makes it into our repos that may be a better replacment.
<OvenWerks> I am guessing that very few people use LADSPA plugins outside of another application anyway, so it may not matter.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-08
<luisbg> Hi, I am looking for Set
<sakrecoer_> hi luis! i'm Set
<sakrecoer_> luisbg
<luisbg> sakrecoer_: hi :)
<sakrecoer_> :) good to read you!
<luisbg> how are you?
 * cfhowlett is still waiting for someone's wallpaper ...
<sakrecoer_> fine, thank you! self?
<luisbg> good good, almost finished with my day at the office
 * sakrecoer_ hola back at cfhowlett while surfing the deadlinewave
<cfhowlett> luisbg, have you submitted your wallpaper contest entry?
<luisbg> cfhowlett: no, I might though. Will search around for something cool
<sakrecoer_> luisbg: nice! i'm on ut until 22, office thing...
<sakrecoer_> *it
<cfhowlett> tick tock: window closes on the 10th.  I recall you have some excellent ideas so , please!
<luisbg> sakrecoer_: on what?
<sakrecoer_> luisbg: we wanted to see with you if we could arrange a forward from #ubuntustudio-es to #ubuntu-es
<luisbg> sakrecoer_: sure, what do I need to do?
<sakrecoer_> sorry, i ment i'm at work...
<sakrecoer_> luisbg: i'm affraid i don't really know how, but our good irc specialst, krytarik knows
<luisbg> sakrecoer_: ahhh, I see
<luisbg> unfortunately he isn't around
<sakrecoer_> krytarik usually gets online about now o'clock
<sakrecoer_> :)
<luisbg> I will stay in the channel, and reconnect latter (I use an IRC bouncer)
<sakrecoer_> can you hang arround? if not i will gather info from him and forward it to you vis launchpad
<knome> luisbg, /mode #ubuntustudio-es +if #ubuntu-es
<knome> though you also need to be an op on #ubuntu-es too
<sakrecoer_> \o/ knome delivering sollutions again ! <3
<knome> it's all here too: https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
<sakrecoer_> thanks!
<luisbg> ok, I just asked in #ubuntu-es for temporary op, just to be able to do this
<knome> :)
<luisbg> -- | #Ubuntu-es: You're not a channel operator
<luisbg> it's what I get when I try to run that command right now
<knome> zequence, updates on the theme again (eg. better support for responsive menus), please re-pull
<sakrecoer_> hmm... so its not enough to be op in the channel that is being forwarded..
<luisbg> sakrecoer_: yeah, probably to avoid dodgy forwards
<sakrecoer_> luisbg: probably :)
<luisbg> sakrecoer_: do you know anybody who is op in #ubuntu-es? I wouldn't be surprised if they don't op me thinking the question is strange
<knome> /msg chanserv access list #ubuntu-es
<sakrecoer_> not really, but i think you are well known in #ubuntu-irc
<sakrecoer_> luisbg: ask them to back you up maybe?
<sakrecoer_> or show them you can be op here, luisbg 
<luisbg> will hold op just until this is sorted out
<sakrecoer_> ok :)
<luisbg> so far no replies in #ubuntu-es
<luisbg> IRC is async, so no rush
<sakrecoer_> yes, thanks for your time anyways luisbg 
<luisbg> no worries
<luisbg> going to head out home... Mondays
<luisbg> talk to you later :)
<sakrecoer_> enjoy! read ya later luisbg :)
<knome> bbl too
<krytarik> luisbg: Basically, we'd want to either close #ubuntustudio-es entirely, or make it an official one and set a forward to #ubuntu-es (because, from experience with other flavors, it can't really be expected to be used much) - for the latter, the first step would be to add the Ubuntu IRCC (UbuntuIrcCouncil) as a founder to the channel access list.
<rww> i note that if #ubuntu-es doesn't sort out their end after a few days, poking the IRC Council could get things expedited
<rww> since they're plenty capable of doing a forward like that, and it seems like a no-brainer
<sakrecoer_> rww: thanks! noted. :)
<luisbg> rww: I agree
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-09
<sakrecoer_> zequence: did you check knome's logo edits?
<sakrecoer_> looking good to me :)
<krytarik> Reg. the current image build failures, should be fixed by a successful Python 3.4.4-2 upload and build sometime soon: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python3.4
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-11
<cfhowlett> http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/vote.pl?id=E_0fdc957f50e982d0
<sakrecoer_> so, the call for votes is out in the ether :)
<sakrecoer_> great jobb on that vote set-up cfhowlett :)
<sakrecoer_> 75 entires!!!!
<cfhowlett> yeah.  I can't twitter or GPlus it though.  Please send it through your channels.
<sakrecoer_> you mean you don't have any?
<sakrecoer_> good on you if it is the case :D
<cfhowlett> I tried to use the US twitter but couldn't log in.
<sakrecoer_> ah, its there already
<sakrecoer_> g-, twatter, facebuck, and diaspora :)
<cfhowlett> Just confirmed - it is already on GPlus
<sakrecoer_> yes
<cfhowlett> cool!
<sakrecoer_> oh, the ubuntu forums maybe :)
<cfhowlett> doh!  yeah!  you got that covered?
<sakrecoer_> *blush* i completly forgot to announce the contest there.... :facepalmingmyself: but maybe its ok anyways... :/
<sakrecoer_> grrr... silly me, generously ranting about mainstream socialmedia, and then i forget the forum :'(
<cfhowlett> just posted to Ubuntu Studio forums
<sakrecoer_> awsome, i'm struggling to get in...
<sakrecoer_> i don't know how but i've ended up with 2 accounts..
<sakrecoer_> one with the gmail that is only active on the forum...
<sakrecoer_> well.. "how" i know: i registered twice obviously...
<cfhowlett> "Hotwheel" at fullscreen = awesome!
<sakrecoer_> one of my favourite is yours cfhowlett :) i didn't notice before
<sakrecoer_> LineNovaStudio
<cfhowlett> :)
<zequence> cfhowlett: sakrecoer_: Just to clarify one thing. The vote for wallpapers is just for which wallpapers are included in the install, right?
<cfhowlett> zequence, correct.  
<zequence> Ah, great.
<cfhowlett> the remainder can be packaged for an optional "community wallpapers" package later
<zequence> That's a good idea
<cfhowlett> one way to leverage community interest
<knome> zequence, sakrecoer_: any news about the theme testing? :)
<zequence> When it comes to artwork, it's hard to make that a democratic procedure.
<zequence> At the very least, the people making the choices need to have some form of competence and experience
<cfhowlett> yeah, I'm watching the voting results.  they are ... surprising.  BUT the Art Team can choose which ever image they deem appropriate for the default wallpaper
<zequence> For things like the default wallpaper, desktop theming, etc
<zequence> knome: I haven't touched it since we were in contact the last time.
<knome> you probably should, i've landed this and that
<zequence> knome: You fixed the image problem, right?
<zequence> And, there's a sidebar now. Let me update it
<knome> zequence, the image problem was never there ;)
<knome> (or you did something wrong)
<knome> or maybe some inline css came in from somewhere
<zequence> knome: Oh, great. It has all the stuff we need now
<zequence> Ok, I don't still understand the problem with one of the images. But the same image in two different posts is handled differently
<zequence> No
<zequence> The first one is smaller to begin with
<zequence> The images don't shrink
<zequence> ..when you make the browser window smaller
<knome> remind me of the url you are having problms at
<zequence> http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/
<zequence> Third image
<knome> oh wow, wordpress seems to add some srcset="" now
<knome> don't know if that's what is messing up with it
<cfhowlett> the deprecated word/brandmark?
<zequence> cfhowlett: No, just images posted in a WP post
<cfhowlett> gotch
<zequence> When you make the browser window smaller, it would be nice if the images in that post shrunk to the width of the browser window
<zequence> Like, when you use a browser in your phone
<zequence> I like how the menu is created on the right side, and the logo ends up on the left side in a small window
<knome> OHHH
<knome> the containing div has a specified size
<knome> zequence, do you use firefox and stylish?
<zequence> knome: Yep
<zequence> for both
<knome> http://paste.ubuntu.com/15016749/
<knome> this should fix it
<knome> actually you likely don't even need the !important
<knome> yep, that's trye
<knome> *true too
<zequence> Yes, that worked.
<knome> great, i'll add that to the theme
<knome> and done
<zequence> That pretty much concludes doing all the functional stuff that I personally would need
<zequence> I like it!
<knome> goodie :)
<knome> what about the visual side then?
<knome> and are you still wanting a slideshow on the front page?
<zequence> No, I don't think we need that.
<zequence> But, we'll need to work on the colors a bit
<knome> sure
<knome> i would put it like this:
<zequence> Think what I want to do is make the grey a bit darker. That's pretty much it for me.
<knome> since you are the main target for the dark theme, let's just make the dark variant work for you
<knome> and i'm sure other people who want a dark theme will be happy
<knome> oh, one question:
<knome> when using the dark theme, do you think the dark dropdown menus are preferred, or would you actually prefer to keep the dropdowns light as they are regularly?
<zequence> knome: I like having them as is
<knome> dark, that is?
<knome> or light?
<knome> you confused me now...
<zequence> The menus is the same color as the top bar, in our case blue. I like keeping it that way
<zequence> menu*
<knome> noooo
<knome> add a submenu item for a menu item
<zequence> Ah
<knome> and make sure you don't get the mobile menu
<knome> so... this is now dark on dark
<knome> is that good, or would you prefer to have it light?
<knome> or do you think it's something that will tear people apart, and that it would be good to offer both alternatives?
<zequence> No, I think I prefer having the same color on the menu as the top bar
<zequence> It looks really good in blue for us
<knome> i think you are still missing the point :D
<zequence> Right, not mobile menus
<zequence> Let me check
<knome> well in mobile menu too; the submenu items are shown in dark/light
<knome> but the regular view gives you a better idea what i'm talking about
<zequence> Think I would like them in the same color as the top bar, though, but I need to check
<zequence> knome: I don't have a strong opinion right now. It looks ok.
<zequence> I need to think about it
<knome> zequence, sure. and if the colors feel off, we can modify them too
<zequence> knome: No. I do prefer them dark. I was also thinking about perhaps making the have the same color as the top bar
<zequence> So, either dark, or in our case bliue
<zequence> blue*
<knome> zequence, the border for the submenu bubble is a bit weird imo
<zequence> knome: Yes, I noticed that too
<knome> i'll likely revisit that when i'm home tonight or some other day in the next few days
<zequence> ok
<knome> but feel free to suggest something else in between
<knome> as i said before, all the dark style related stuff is in css/style-dark.css
<knome> so not too much digging to do if you want to play around with it
<zequence> If the menu would have the same color as the top bar, which I think could look nice, there needs to be some horisontal positioning difference in the mobile menu, or something that shows which items are submenus
<knome> i don't think i'd want to change the submenu bg for the mobile style menu
<zequence> Could be a difference in the font too. Bold, vs normal
<knome> and i don't think the header color would work too well with the regular view
<zequence> I would like to try that, anyway. But, I'll wait until after FF
<knome> the same with the font stuff, then the regular view should have bold/medium for the main items too i think
<knome> (though that's doable imo)
<zequence> Alright. Need to jump in the shower
<knome> have fun, but don't get too wet!
<sakrecoer_> knome: great improvements in mobile size! looks very good!
<knome> thanks, and happy you like them
<sakrecoer_> the submenu works in grey.. color scheme is delicate. i like how the darker blue on a:active interacts with it...
<knome> it's actually the same blue, you're just seeing weird stuff
<knome> ;)
<sakrecoer_> right:D my briwser highlughts with green on tap 
<sakrecoer_> browser highlights*
<knome> bbl
<sakrecoer_> transparent green that is, making it darker.
<sakrecoer_> ok, i'll take some notes and try some stuff! read you later
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-12
<sakrecoer> luisbg: buenas noches! would you be able to grant the IRCC access to #ubuntustudio-es ? :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-13
<zequence> I'm sure someone may have mentioned this before, but I just saw someone mention it today. The Ubuntu Studio group at soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/groups/ubuntu-studio
<cfhowlett> I never knew about before today
<cfhowlett> and it should be prominently mentioned in the US social media
<sakrecoer> there is this too: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase :)
<sakrecoer> i'm on it tomorrow: kdenlive MTC, soundcloudgroup promo, and freeculture showcase. g'night y'all!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-14
<luisbg> sakrecoer: yes, just tell me who from IRCC to give it to
<knome> luisbg, i think he's referring to the IRCC account
<knome> that is, UbuntuIrcCouncil
<knome> luisbg, /msg ChanServ access #ubuntustudio-es add UbuntuIrcCouncil OP
<knome> luisbg, that shouldd o it
<luisbg> ChanServ (ChanServ@services.): Invalid template name given, use /msg ChanServ TEMPLATE #ubuntustudio-es for a list
<luisbg> I just did the command without OP at the end and got
<luisbg> ChanServ (ChanServ@services.): Flags +Aiortv were set on UbuntuIrcCouncil in #ubuntustudio-es.
<luisbg> let me google for those flags
<knome> that should do
<luisbg> yeah the 'o' is to have access to op/deop
<knome> yep
<luisbg> which is what they needed
<luisbg> cool cool
<luisbg> knome: I like your nick, very controversial :P
<knome> i was looking at "help access add" :P
<knome> even more so because i use xfce...
<luisbg> knome: me too, ChanServ's help isn't very clear though
<knome> ...but seriously speaking, it has nothing to do with technology :P
<luisbg> knome: xnome doesn't have the same ring to it
<knome> nope :P
<luisbg> sakrecoer: in case you miss the backlog, UbuntuIrcCouncil now has op/deop access in #ubuntustudio-es
<knome> luisbg, you probably could also mention it on #ubuntu-irc along with the fact that you want the rewrite and they can likely do it right now :)
<luisbg> knome: sakrecoer is in contact with the UbuntuIrcCouncil about this, he will let his point of contact know
<knome> well, feel free to do it like that too
 * knome is a man of action
<knome> well at least as long as it doesn't mean i have to get up away from the keyboard!
<krytarik> luisbg: Please do "/msg ChanServ flags #ubuntustudio-es UbuntuIrcCouncil +AFRefiorstv", to give them full founder access.
<sakrecoer> hi guys!
<sakrecoer> luisbg: feel free to go ahead, i never got any contact point with the council. the method was usggested by 
<sakrecoer> rww, if i recall correctly
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: i am having a bit of a trouble writing the test case for kdenlive, it is super buggy, not much working, transitions are broken,transport buttons are missing...
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: but the interface dosen't seem to have changed too much, i'm wrinting one for the version in 14.04, and if we manage to package 15.12 i can rewrite it.
<Rosco2> sakrecoer: I was trying to look at syncing the new kdenlive yesterday
<sakrecoer> great news :)
<Rosco2> But I was having trouble with my setup
<Rosco2> Will try again tomorrow
<sakrecoer> thank you Rosco2 !! :)
<Rosco2> Today I was distracted by cfhowlett
<Rosco2> I am just testing an update to the wallpaper package
<Rosco2> with some of the competition entries
<sakrecoer> if there is anything i can do that would give you more time-space, let me know Rosco2 
<Rosco2> No problems. SOmetimes takes me time to remember how do do things I haven't done in  awhile
<sakrecoer> :) i'm prone to that aswell 
<sakrecoer> super glad you looking into it however Rosco2 :)
<rww> luisbg: m4v is around right now, can you try poking him about the #ubuntu-es thing please?
<Rosco2> zequence: played with updating ubuntustudio-defaul-settings today
<Rosco2> In connection with the ubuntustudio-look with the new competition wallpapers
<Rosco2> There were some unreleased changes in default-settings
<Rosco2> Do you think it is safe to upload these changes with the change to the defsult background?
<Rosco2> oops - default background
<Rosco2> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/trunk/revision/278
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-02-09
<OvenWerks> soundconverter may be a worthwhile package to include. There is also a soundkonverter, but I don't like the dependancies (mainly timidity which as installed tends to run as a daemon blocking audio ports)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-02-12
<cafinux> Hi Just putting my name out there, not very good at IRC b ut heard you guys wanted a hand.
<cafinux> Are most of the contacts on here based in Europe?
<cfhowlett> ubuntu is global
<cafinux> on their wiki ubuntustudio devel said they are only a small number, I'm trying to work out what is the best times to connect with them. 
<cfhowlett> cafinux, we don't hang out at any particular time.  perhaps you might email the group list?
<cafinux> Will do Thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-02-06
<mozmck> Does ubuntustudio use a preempt-rt kernel?
<OvenWerks> no
<OvenWerks> it uses a lowlatency kernel
<mozmck> ok thanks.
<OvenWerks> There is no rt kernel in the ubuntu repo
<mozmck> yeah - I've had to build my own, but thought I'd check and see if y'all were doing that as well.
<OvenWerks> it is possible to get stable audio with the lowlatency kernel down to .7ms
<OvenWerks> at least with PCI audio interface
<mozmck> I'm actually doing cnc machine control :-)  I play music but haven't really recorded any.
<OvenWerks> usb will never be less than 1ms
<OvenWerks> CNC needs rt
<mozmck> yep
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-04
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: interesting. I guess I didn't expect the application to go so far :)  Feel free to try changing the -W to -S
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't think we can do anything about the purge because the user will not use installer to remove packages, they may use apt or software may remove something so it can install something else... Which is another thing we don't check for
<OvenWerks> So that would be two bugs:
<OvenWerks> 1) Allow installing of a removed package.
<OvenWerks> 2) warn user if something they have installed will need to be removed to allow installing the new sw choice
<OvenWerks> (mean while don't warn them it it is being removed because the new package is a "replaces")
<OvenWerks> extra points for reading their mind and interpereting what they want even if they don't know what tha means...  ')
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I determined changing -W to -S to be ineffective. The whole problem is that dpkg keeps the record in its cache unless purge is used to uninstall. 
<Eickmeyer> So, it's possible that dpkg can't even be used in this case.
<Eickmeyer> A warning would be good, but I wouldn't include it except in a manpage or in a wiki. If we do add uninstall option to -installer, we should use purge to ensure that it can be detected as uninstalled.
<Eickmeyer> That said, there's gotta be a way. Synaptic and aptitude figure it out.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would suggest that in most cases, someone might install one of the packages inside the meta and remove it rather than the meta itself.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would also guess it is possible to not install the meta at all... but rather just it's depends
 * OvenWerks thinks installer is about to get somewhat more complex...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: This is true, but not all of the packages listed are metas.
<Eickmeyer> Either way, if we add the uninstall option, it ought to use purge.
<OvenWerks> yes
<Eickmeyer> And, perhaps it'll get more complex, but we can worry about that when going Python.
<Eickmeyer> It's actually as easy as "apt-get remove {metapackage} --purge}
<OvenWerks> if you wish to add remove we would have to show what is removable. It starts to get to showing all the packages inside the meta like the iso install does.
<OvenWerks> we need to know that a package has been installed or removed and how it has been removed.
<OvenWerks> if we remove/purge or not is not that big of a deal at that point
<OvenWerks> There may be good reasons to remove/no purge too. Such as removing the ubuntu version to replace it with an upstream version where keeping the config would be advantageous
<Eickmeyer> This is true.
<Eickmeyer> Although, in my experience, purge doesn't remove anything from ~/.config, so if it's a user-level config, that doesn't get removed.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I guess anything the application writes after install is too hard to track
<Eickmeyer> Indeed. So long as it's not acting as root, it's untrackable and confined to ~/.
<Eickmeyer> Untrackable for dpkg, that is.
<OvenWerks> There must be a way for any package to find it's status
<OvenWerks> installed, removed, purged
<OvenWerks> have you looked at the output of -s instead of -S?
<OvenWerks> It still doesn't return a 1/0 but it is parsable
<Eickmeyer> When I posted -S I meant -s. :S
<OvenWerks> I think -s would work if it was properly parsed, it can't just be used as a substitute for -W
<OvenWerks> With -W it was enough just to look for output or not, with -s we have to look for the Status: line and parse that.
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> That's over my head. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-05
<Eickmeyer> Test
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Test
<Eickmeyer> Perfect.
<Eickmeyer> Hi all. studiobot is our new Telegram <-> IRC Bridge. I'll be testing it for a few weeks, but anyone who wants to help test feel free.
<Eickmeyer> Telegram group link is here: https://t.me/joinchat/GOahGRZg29nvXb9QzpCxvQ
<Eickmeyer> One for the -offtopic channel: https://t.me/joinchat/GOahGRKwMAQ-N3GRnRNZBA
<Eickmeyer> This will be good for people who are intimidated by / don't want to use IRC.
<krytarik> Or because Telegram is easier to handle on a smartphone.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: That too.
<krytarik> After all, that's why quite a few people communicate to a channel over both ways.
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2 and wxl, to name a couple I know of.
<tsimonq2> Heya.
<tsimonq2> krytarik: Ooh, do you have a Telegram account duuude?
<tsimonq2> (He's right though, it's made development much easier.)
<krytarik> tsimonq2: Oh noo, duuude, still don't.
<tsimonq2> krytarik: Aww maaaan.
<tsimonq2> You should totally get one.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Totally here, talking via Telegram. You should try it!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-07
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: just playing with -installer here. using -s seems to work for me with no other change even for an application I have installed and removed
<OvenWerks> not permanently removed (though that works too)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Cool. If you think it's solid enough, that works.
<Eickmeyer> On my end, falktx and I got Carla and all of its subpackages building perfectly. Working on packaging, then off to sponsorship.
<OvenWerks> with wine?
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> \o/
<OvenWerks> in other news there is now an aes67 ALSA driver available.
<Eickmeyer> Interesting. I know Midas has AES50, so is this an iteration of that?
<OvenWerks> no
<OvenWerks> audio over ethernet
<OvenWerks> I think it is ip
<Eickmeyer> AES50 is that, too, just proprietary to Midas/Behringer.
<OvenWerks> aes50 is not proprietary if it is aes anything
<OvenWerks> but it does not live well with switches so far as I know
<OvenWerks> aes67 is similar to avb but one level up and does not require special switches. It can connect to Dante devices with the aes upgrade
<OvenWerks> I thought I had the aes50 paper sitting around here but I don't seem to
<Eickmeyer> Either way, AES67 sounds so much better.
<OvenWerks> I have to find out if it gives a udev message
<OvenWerks> actually, I pretty much need to have an endpoint to play with to see how the driver behaves
<OvenWerks> (two would be better)
<OvenWerks> I don't know if the alsa device is available before the user has set it up.
<OvenWerks> I think that if the ALSA device is available right away that it should not be opened until it is set up.
<OvenWerks> I think once an alsa device has been opened it is not possible to change the number of audio channels it has for example
<OvenWerks> if you have two devices the one aes67 device in alsa would be the agrigate of the two phisical devices
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: anyway, -installer is qued to build. See if you can test it in ways I can't.
<OvenWerks> If it doesn't work for you, I will add some debug statements and we can try again.
<OvenWerks> I did experience it not working after installing and removing an application and then it did work after the change.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'll try it out. Right now, it seems as if LP's build farm is incredibly backed-up.
<OvenWerks> 40 min
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I've had Carla sitting on 40 minutes the past two hours. I think something is stuck.
<OvenWerks> I was about to say the 40 min does not seem to change
<OvenWerks> I thinkt I have done my work for the day...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, same. I bet when the Canonical folks wake up and see what's going on there'll be some stuff moving through.
<Eickmeyer> Ooof... two weeks from Feature Freeze.
<Eickmeyer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiscoDingo/ReleaseSchedule
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: just get the packages we have been working on released and that would already be a big step
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, but I'm this || close to having Carla ready for Autobuilds.
<Eickmeyer> Testing Installer as we speak, looking good so far.
<Eickmeyer> Carla will be 1.9.13 which is 2.0-RC3. He might have an actual release, but he gave himself an end-of-March deadline, so I don't think that's going to make it.
<Eickmeyer> We might have to keep Patchage with Carla, and have Carla there for testing purposes, with the official 2.0 release in 19.10 replacing Patchage.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we should add Carla to the installer if it is at least in the autobuilds
<Eickmeyer> I was thinking of the seed along with -audio.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am thinking we could add a button ti installer that adds/removes the autobuilds ppa
<Eickmeyer> Not a bad idea, but I think it should be a backports ppa at that point.
<Eickmeyer> Similar to Kubuntu's backports.
<OvenWerks> sure, the actual ppa is not as important, but one that has the "right" name is best  ;)
<Eickmeyer> Yes. Backports is less likely to scare people like our testing ppa "autobuilds" does. It would be as simple as making a separate PPA with manually-triggered recipes.
<OvenWerks> right
<Eickmeyer> By the way, -installer's changes look good per my tests.
<OvenWerks> It would be nice if the relogin dialog only showed up when needed
<OvenWerks> probably all I need to do is see if the user is in the audio group.
<Eickmeyer> So, the ppa would be "ppa:ubuntustudio-ppa/backports".
<Eickmeyer> I'm working on the builds now.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, that's a good idea.
<OvenWerks> I guess I need to add an add backports button...
<Eickmeyer> Right now, I have it for Cosmic and Bionic, and I'll activate for Disco after feature freeze.
<Eickmeyer> And like that, we have a backports PPA.
<Eickmeyer> (OMG, what have we done...!) XD
<Eickmeyer> I could only get the PPA to work for amd64.
<Eickmeyer> That's frustrating.
<Eickmeyer> Had i386 checked and everything.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: which package?
<Eickmeyer> All of them.
<OvenWerks> do any of them have binaries?
<Eickmeyer> Nope.
<OvenWerks> Thats why
<Eickmeyer> Ohhhhhh...
<OvenWerks> which ppa?
<Eickmeyer> ubuntustudio-ppa/backports
<Eickmeyer> I guess if the arch is all, it doesn't matter.
<OvenWerks> where do I find that?
<Eickmeyer> http://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-ppa/backports
<Eickmeyer> Oops, ignore that
<Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-ppa/+archive/ubuntu/backports/
<Eickmeyer> I'm hoping that if I, say, backport Carla that the i386 portions would get built since 32-bit VSTs (which are most common) would need the 32-bit bridges, both wine and otherwise.
<OvenWerks> Wait and see what the .deb looks like when published
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<OvenWerks> Ya, they say _all.deb
<OvenWerks> so good for 32 bit
<OvenWerks> (and arm)
<Eickmeyer> Yay
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: BTW, added Ross to the core team because... well, why the heck wasn't he already??? lol
<OvenWerks> no problem.
<OvenWerks> So long as he is ok with it.
<Eickmeyer> I'm sure he will be. If he's not, he can remove himself.
<Eickmeyer> Just didn't make sense for it to be just you, me, and sakrecoer.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-08
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Carla is now in Autobuilds for your testing pleasure, complete with the wine bridges. Falktx tells me he'll likely do another RC fairly soon for a bug that he's highly motivated to fix.
<sakrecoer> hi all! Eickmeyer: Maybe i should be removed from the core team? I would like that. Not that i want to distanciate myself. But I'm not that active obviously. And it's quite a responsability to have such access...
<sakrecoer> just make sure someone else, (you, Eickmeyer ) has the proper access without automagic termination before you do...
<sakrecoer> i suppose i can remove myself... i've been thinking about it, but i felt i needed to give you a heads up first and make sure i'm not locking everybody out...
<Eickmeyer> sakrecoer: Feel free to do whatever it is you need to do. I already have administrator, but not owner. If you terminate yourself, would that make someoene else owner automatically?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ubuntu-bug will not allow me to file a bug report for controls :P
<OvenWerks> (I don't have the released version installed)
<Eickmeyer> You might have to do it directly via Launchpad.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: In other news, bug 1815230
<ubottu> bug 1815230 in Ubuntu Studio "Tascam US-122 locks up system when audio is sent to it" [Wishlist,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1815230
<Eickmeyer> Had to politely say no to that one.
<Eickmeyer> Proprietary, non-repo driver required, no longer developed.
<OvenWerks> The right answer is talk to the ALSA team
<OvenWerks> (be prepared to supply a unit for them to work with)
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls/+bug/1815240
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1815240 in ubuntustudio-controls "Latency time is for 48k sample rate only" [Undecided,New]
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's kindof the direction I pointed him.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I see that
<Eickmeyer> As for your bug, I assigned it to the actual Ubuntu package to get some attention.
<Eickmeyer> Is that something you're working on?
<OvenWerks> I will be, I am not sure which way to fix it... remove the time value or recalc the wh0o bunch.
<Eickmeyer> There actually is a simple calculation for latency if you wanted to put that in a special window. Another nice thing would be to mention that a USB devices work best on 3 periods per buffer to get a latency in multiples of 1ms.
<Eickmeyer> s/special window/special field
<Eickmeyer> https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/list_of_jack_frame_period_settings_ideal_for_usb_interface
<OvenWerks> That may be the better way to go
<OvenWerks> I may end up adding the periods field as well.
<Eickmeyer> I honestly think that would be the way to go since calculating latency (as general as possible not accounting for specific hardware) is fairly trivial.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Do you think you can do that before feature freeze?
<OvenWerks> When is that again?
<Eickmeyer> February 14th.
<OvenWerks> I can at least remove the wrong time values.
<OvenWerks> I am working on installer just now.
<Eickmeyer> For us West Coast US/Canada people, it might as well be the 13th since everything Ubuntu revolves around London.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like it worked, he's going to contact the ALSA developers.
<OvenWerks> where do we fix the user rt permisions again?
 * OvenWerks goes to clear some snow... 
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Just saw this. You mean in -installer?
<Eickmeyer> I stuck it below Line 188 with a set instcmd "pkexec /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-system fix" in line 192.
<Eickmeyer> We hadnt' really established where we'd put it, so if that's the wrong spot, I'm cool with whatever.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Stay warm. Snow is starting to get heavy here, too.
<OvenWerks> So where did you actually run that command?
<OvenWerks> All I see is that a variable has been set to that string. Did it work?
<Eickmeyer> I honestly don't think it did, but I don't really know this scripting language that well.
<OvenWerks> Ok I will make sure it runs...  ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-09
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: some fixes to installer pushed. It needs to be tested on a fresh non-Studio install I guess. With not installing everything and then installing the rest on a second run.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I tried adding the ppa add button... but there is a slight problem with it.
<OvenWerks> The button is easy :) but adding a ppa takes two commands: add the ppa and then apt update
<OvenWerks> the normal ; and && tricks don't seem to work so I would have to pkexec them one at a time... which means password twice.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ouch, not ideal.
<Eickmeyer> As it so happens, I just installed Ubuntu Budgie to try the DE agnostics out.
<Eickmeyer> So far, the experience is pretty good.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Did you literally just now push -installer?
<Eickmeyer> Nevermind, It was giving me an error.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: The other idea is a metapackage that simply adds the repo. Would be fairly trivial to do.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Success. The first time, it gave me the logout/in nag. Second time, no nag. Achievement: Unlocked.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if I actually told it to rebuild... maybe you did or the time was right :)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: -controls is fixed, I just changed latency to buffer size... adding a latency readout can come later (along with periods) (later is next cycle)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: With regard to installer, I would really like to add the ppa button. However, the right way to do this (which I think the gnome sw installer uses) is to have a second process running as root that we can pipe commands to.
<OvenWerks> This second process is run pkexec and we can pipe in the add ppa, update and finally the actual install
<OvenWerks> So the first thing that needs pkexec runs this and the pw is only needed once.
<OvenWerks> I do not think it is wise to do things the same as controls does because there is not enough control of what may be fed into it. So while controls does not need a pw to affect the governor, Installer should be passworded
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so we can just leave things as is for this cycle
<OvenWerks> we can add the button with two password required
<OvenWerks> we can add another file that just does the ppa add plus update (so passowrd required to add ppa and password required to do install)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Are you sure you don't want to change to a button for next cycle and have a metapackage added to -default-settings that simply has a postinst script saying "add-apt-repository -y ppa:ubuntustudio-ppa/backports" and a postrm script saying "add-apt-repository --remove -y ppa:ubuntustudio-ppa/backports"?
<OvenWerks> but the piped to root process will not be possible in the time we have.
<OvenWerks> Adding a ppa with a package is not a good solution in my opinion.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, that's fair.
<OvenWerks> Unless the package is called ubuntustudio-add-backport-ppa
<OvenWerks> Adding a ppa should not be done without the user knowing they are doing so and that it is a "possible" security hole
<Eickmeyer> That would be fine. The package name would be completely arbitrary. I was thinking "ubuntustudio-backport-ppa" with the description "Adds Ubuntu Studio Backports PPA for updated tools & software"
<OvenWerks> and "Please note that this PPA is not officially sponsored by ubuntu" or something.
<Eickmeyer> Further description could be "Use at your own risk" included.
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<OvenWerks> Ok I will add a button with a warning dialog
<Eickmeyer> Well, I don't see a need for an exclusive button, just installs as a regular metapackage from the list.
<OvenWerks> A button allows a warning dialog
<Eickmeyer> Ture.
<Eickmeyer> *true
<OvenWerks> I don't know if the pkexec command allows me to do that there but I'll look.
<Eickmeyer> k
<Eickmeyer> I'll prep the metapackage.
<OvenWerks> I would not need a meta package for this.
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<OvenWerks> Just a three line script :)
<Eickmeyer> :thumbsup:
<Eickmeyer> If IRC worked like Slack, that would've made the thumbs up emoji
<OvenWerks> Not for me, I am using irssi
<Eickmeyer> It wouldnt' work for anyone using any form of IRC unless I made an alias in Quassel.
<OvenWerks> BTW, -controls may have moved on the menu.
<OvenWerks> I am just installing now to see.
<Eickmeyer> -controls installs as a dependency of -installer, unless you mean the Xfce menu.
<OvenWerks> The xfce menu
<OvenWerks> I think it will be in setting
<OvenWerks> Installer will remain in system
<OvenWerks> In some ways I would like controls in both places
<OvenWerks> maybe in audio too
<Eickmeyer> Shouldn't be difficult. Just edit the .desktop file.
<OvenWerks> So yes I would like to change the menu as well... But maybe next cycle.
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<OvenWerks> right now we force qjackctl as the first thing in the Audio menu.
<OvenWerks> We should put controls there
<Eickmeyer> I totally agree with that. Is that in -default-settings?
<OvenWerks>  and move qjackctl to audio->utilities
<OvenWerks> should be in ubuntustudio-menu
<Eickmeyer> I'm looking.
<OvenWerks> the file is in /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but I hadn't cloned the repo. >.<
<Eickmeyer> qjackctl is already in the menu.
<OvenWerks> yes, like I say it is forced to be in the top
<OvenWerks> I want to move it to a submenu
<OvenWerks> It is what people are used to, but we want to move to controls...
<Eickmeyer> Moved Qjackctl.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Also, we need to put -controls in the default favorites. Right now, Qjackctl is there, probably shouldn't be. Where do I go for that?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am not sure... let me look.
<Eickmeyer> k
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I did not put that there... in fact the first thing I do is get rid of whisker
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, it must be in -default-settings. I can't find it in -menu.
<OvenWerks> Ok, it will likely be in a different package (desktop or setting or something)
<OvenWerks> the file is /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/whiskermenu/defaults.rc
<Eickmeyer> It's in -default-settings.
<OvenWerks> Do we install the mailreader by default?
<OvenWerks> maybe we should remove that too.
<Eickmeyer> We include Thunderbird.
<Eickmeyer> mail reader defaults to opening Thunderbird.
<OvenWerks> Ok leave it then
<OvenWerks> We should make the application menu match I guess... for those who use it
<OvenWerks> Eek! take software manager out of there.
<Eickmeyer> Well, it's the xfce way of doing things (having a web browser shortcut for whatever is set in the default application settings, and a likewise mail reader shortcut).
<Eickmeyer> Done, but why?
 * OvenWerks would like the gnome software manager to be as hard to find as possible
<OvenWerks> It breaks too many things in audio
<Eickmeyer> I'm just curious as to how it breaks things.
<OvenWerks> Some one wanting to build jack application might add libjack-dev
<OvenWerks> this will remove jackd2 and all apps that depend on it.
<Eickmeyer> I see
<OvenWerks> synaptic will at least warn the user it is about to remove stuff
<OvenWerks> gnome sw will not.
<Eickmeyer> Makes sense.
<OvenWerks> maybe we should just install libjack-jackd2-dev by default
<Eickmeyer> Would that go in the seed?
<OvenWerks> It could
<Eickmeyer> If that would help, then I don't see why not.
<tsimonq2> (Ideally, for a library package, you would instead make it a hard dependency of the packages which need it.)
<OvenWerks> anything build with either jackd2 or 1 will work with the other... I would like to see a generic libjack-dev that does not require a particular jack but works with either
<OvenWerks> tsimonq2: Ya, but the possibility of pushing that up stream is nil
<OvenWerks> Ideally debian would include the -dev in this case
<tsimonq2> OvenWerks: How so?
<tsimonq2> I happen to be a DD who wears a Debian Multimedia Team hat; if you file a bug I'll be happy to do it.
<OvenWerks> the fact that libjack-dev is already not included in libjack should speak for things
<OvenWerks> debian does not like packages to include includes by policy
<tsimonq2> I don't follow what you're saying when you say "include includes"
<OvenWerks> making libjack require libjack-dev would pose the question why is it not included in libjack in the first place
<tsimonq2> Well, have you asked the Debian maintainer?
<OvenWerks> the libjack-dev package basically has the include files for jackd.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if I have, but it seems I have suggested it before and been told that things are not done that way.
<OvenWerks> if you can change things that would be good
<tsimonq2> The first step is filing a bug; I don't mean to be confrontational or anything, but if it's a problem I'd like to help you get it solved. :)
<OvenWerks> anyway, I need to spend time with my wife for breakfast
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Just pushed the changes in the menu.
<OvenWerks> ok
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: qjackctl now seems to not show up in the menu anywhere...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: My bad, I put it in the wrong spot.
<Eickmeyer> Pushed, rebuilding
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Did you test the latest build of -menu?
<OvenWerks> not yet
<Eickmeyer> I'm in Budgie, but I'm thinking of switching over to MATE to do more testing.
<Eickmeyer> Overall, the results of the tweaks to -installer have done well.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: clean-installed MATE, the tweaks to -installer work just fine. The only problem is, because -installer doesn't use GTK (or Qt), it's hard to tell which items have been clicked.
<OvenWerks> The clicked items don't go dark?
<OvenWerks> (selected)
<Eickmeyer> That's correct.
<Eickmeyer> Wasn't a problem in Xfce, GNOME, Budgie, or Plasma.
<Eickmeyer> Only MATE is where there's a usability problem.
<OvenWerks> The colour right now is taken from the DE colour scheme... so the colour scheme is obviously bad... the problem is that colour schemes are often bad these days :P
<OvenWerks> so I will see if I can force a good colour scheme on the App
<Eickmeyer> I was using the default Ubuntu MATE scheme. Now using Menta (default MATE), launching.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It doesn't work under any MATE theme (incl. color scheme) I've tried.
<Eickmeyer> They're all standard GTK so I'm not sure what isn't translating.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't think it is translation that is a problem but rather tk is using a value that in some other places does not mean selected text.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Very likely.
<OvenWerks> There are likely some other applications where this shows up too.
<Eickmeyer> I can't think of any off the top of my head, most things use GTK or Qt anymore.
<OvenWerks> apparently add-apt-repository remove .... doesn't
<OvenWerks> remove just disables
<Eickmeyer> Uh... You used --remove, right?
<OvenWerks> -r actually
<Eickmeyer> The --help says it removes it from the sources.list.
<Eickmeyer> If that's not accurate, it's a bug.
<OvenWerks> settings->Software & updates->other software shows it has been unticked.
<OvenWerks> hmm this time it worked...
<Eickmeyer> Maybe a cache had to update? idk
<OvenWerks> actually this time I did it without update... better try that.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Did you get that sorted?
 * Eickmeyer has decided he really doesn't like MATE. 
 * Eickmeyer is moving along to Lubuntu for testing
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-10
<OvenWerks> not so quick !!!
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: installer is building. The selected not showing issue should be gone
 * OvenWerks didn't like Mate much either
 * OvenWerks is DL Kubuntu to try install against
<Eickmeyer> I'll try installer in a MATE VM. 
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: how do you like the new installer
<Eickmeyer> Haven't tried it yet. Lubuntu Disco daily doesn't like "nomodeset" which I need to mitigate GPU issues before I can get the necessary AMDGPU kernel params in for my machine. 
<Eickmeyer> So, I have to go Cosmic > Disco first. 
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: ^ Know anything about Disco's issues with nomodeset? 
<tsimonq2> I am not sure.
<Eickmeyer> For me it just wouldn't boot. 
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks great!
<OvenWerks> Is that the new buttons? or the selected BG?
<Eickmeyer> Both.
<OvenWerks> Lets get whatever things need to be released... released
<OvenWerks>  start with -controls and -installer
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Since neither of us are MOTUs, could we bother you with new versions of ubuntustudio-controls and ubuntustudio-installer for disco?
<tsimonq2> Sure.
<tsimonq2> Link?
<Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-installer
<Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls
<OvenWerks> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-menu/+git/ubuntustudio-menu
<Eickmeyer> Or... yeah... ^
<Eickmeyer> That too. That's menu.
<OvenWerks> sorry https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-menu
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-default-settings
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: are there any others?
<OvenWerks> Those four have all been fixeed in the last 24hrs
<Eickmeyer> Also https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-look
<Eickmeyer> and https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/+git/grub2-themes-ubuntustudio
<Eickmeyer> That should be it until I can get carla through the pipes.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: grub2-themes-ubuntustudio would be a new package, mereley a fork from grub2-themes-ubuntu-mate.
<Eickmeyer> So, to summarize: ubuntustudio-installer, ubuntustudio-controls, ubuntustudio-menu, ubuntustudio-default-settings, ubuntustudio-look, and grub2-themes-ubuntustudio need to be updated/released for the cycle.
<tsimonq2> When are one of you going to get upload access again? :P
 * tsimonq2 looks
<Eickmeyer> As soon as I can, but the general consensus is that neither of us have enough packaging experience yet.
<tsimonq2> Alright.
<Eickmeyer> Same with rosco2, and sakrecoer is stepping-down.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: yes the menu is good now. I can find qjackctl
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Oh good. While I'd very much love for that thing to be lost to the depths where it can't be found (its user-friendliness and ux is horrible), I understand its need and place in the world. ;)
<OvenWerks> Some people have been using it for decades
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
<Eickmeyer> It's just hard to support for new users.
<studiobot> tsimonq2 was added by: tsimonq2
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-03
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: added a 3 sec delay...
<OvenWerks> firefox uses more memory every time I open a new page... if I close that tab, it still keeps that memeory :P
<OvenWerks> never need to reboot but restarting FF is a thing it seems
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Yeah, I can't use FF because of that memory leak.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, The latest version of controls both logs out correctly and reboots... at least on my Yf's computer
<OvenWerks> After build I will try it on this machine with a rotating disk
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Ok
<OvenWerks> Works here too. May work with less than 3 sec... on the other hand, if Carla is running and puts a (are you sure you want to quit) box up... I don't know.
<OvenWerks> Actually no, if Carla (or another app) put up a dialog, it waits for that before killing indicators
<Eickmeyer[m]> Perfect.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: BTW we need to keep indicator-messages around for at least a bit.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm pretty sure that was removed?
<OvenWerks> no
<OvenWerks> it is still there
<OvenWerks> indicator sound is gone
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ah, good. Yeah, I don't think that one is going anywhere.
<OvenWerks> indicator applications is gone
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah. That was an effort to create uniformity between Xubuntu's panel and ours.
<OvenWerks> After I get the tablet stuff done controls is ready for release... assuming no bugs.
<OvenWerks> I hope to do that this week
<Eickmeyer[m]> Cool. Hopefully we can actually get people testing it when beta hits. :P
<Eickmeyer[m]> Also, OvenWerks , check PMs.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-05
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> eickmeyer *hangs head in shame*
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it was in radar. I do apologize it got delayed so much.
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu: No worries, we're still in good shape. I probably won't switch everything to whatever you come up with for a few weeks, but it'd be good to have it in the package sooner rather than later. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-07
<teward> Eickmeyer[m]: FYI: avldrums.lv2 was accepted in NEW.
<RikMills> that means hydrogen can be replaced?
<OvenWerks> RikMills: no.
<OvenWerks> Hydrogen is a useful patern based sequencer all on it's own
<RikMills> if its that useful, please package the Qt5 version
<OvenWerks> avldrums is a drum synth plugin that does take the place of something like DrMr.lv2 and is a lighter alternative to drumgizmo for those with less computer resources.
<OvenWerks> RikMills: why the hurry? There is still software that has just (in the past month or so) changed to QT 4
<OvenWerks> (rivendell)
<OvenWerks> Running way ahead of all the software does not seem like a great idea
<RikMills> Qt4 is being removed from debian, and hopefullt 20.04
<RikMills> *hopefully
<OvenWerks> That did not answer the question
<RikMills> I'm just going through the packages blocking Qt4 removal, that is all.
<OvenWerks> That is not a justification for removing qt4
<OvenWerks> So I guess the reason is "Cause we want to"
<RikMills> The reason is we can't support it
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: ^^
<RikMills> Qt5 should migrate on this britney run I hope
<RikMills> ^ ignore. wrong room
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: The Qt5 version has already been packaged, though it's still "beta" and has been for yeeears. What's in Focal now is the Qt5 version.
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: I got the ping in #ubuntu-release.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: good to know.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: the Qt4 removal transition tracker disagrees
<Eickmeyer[m]> My biggest objection is that it has a nag dialog that says "beta" which is very offputting to LTS users. But, oh well.
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: It's wrong. I checked it myself.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Besides, that's a package we sync from Debian.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Same with Ardour, but that was complete FTBFS which required my immediate attention.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: this also disagrees https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hydrogen
<Eickmeyer[m]> If Debian is removing it, then it'll get removed and we'll go to the version I packaged. However, that's not happening.
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: The implication is that it would require a complete rewrite of our installation test case, which I reeeealllly don't want to do.
<RikMills> so transition tracker is correct
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Yes, apparently the test I did was against the version I packaged. oops. HOWEVER, I have bugged the Hydrogen developers about this. I'm likely not to do anything about this until it gets closer to feature freeze as I want to give them as much time as possible.
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: I do NOT want to release beta software with a nag dialog.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Especially in an LTS.
<RikMills> I'm sure that can be removed or amended if needed
<Eickmeyer[m]> I don't have the 1) bandwidth or 2) know-how to do that.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: can be done as the old version plus git*?
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: No, it can't. The old version will not even build against Qt5.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I tried.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: regards debian... https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=874907
<ubottu> Debian bug 874907 in src:hydrogen "[hydrogen] Future Qt4 removal from Buster" [Serious,Open]
<RikMills> "Status update: Qt4 has now been droppped from testing, qt4 will be removed from unstable by end of February (along with the remaining rdeps (currently 15))."
<OvenWerks> I mean can the new version be pulled as old version +git*
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: No, it doesn't work like that.
<OvenWerks> k
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: I'm well aware of that thread.
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: I did this back in Nov3ember, it's the beta I speak of: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/hydrogen
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's pretty much ready to go, but I reallyl don't want to put it in there with the beta nag.
<RikMills> OvenWerks: they versioned the beta as 1.0.0-beta1
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: where is it?
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Where is what? That's the git for what I packaged.
<RikMills> Yes, or the ppa
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Here's the issue I opened with them: https://github.com/hydrogen-music/hydrogen/issues/794
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: I appear to have deleted it from my PPA by mistake, I'll get it building again.
 * RikMills subscribes
<RikMills> data/hydrogen.default.conf:     <showDevelWarning>true</showDevelWarning>
<RikMills> I guess set that to false via packaging, and the warning will go away?
<RikMills> keeping the warning but changing the text would be problematic, as it appears to be a translated string
<Eickmeyer[m]> I feel like I ran across that issue as well.
<Eickmeyer[m]> If it can be disabled via that one string, I'm all for it RikMills .
<Eickmeyer[m]> Shouldn't be hard to patch.
<RikMills> exactly
<RikMills> actually the DELEVOLOPERS notes in the source say exactly this
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm just leery of patching things because it invites the whole "We don't know what they've patched in Ubuntu so we don't support it" argument, even when I tell upstream that it's exactly the same as what they themselves have put in Debian. *cough**Ardour**cough*
<RikMills> i.e. when they make a non beta release, they should change that config to false to get rid of the nag
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: https://community.kde.org/Kubuntu/Policies#Patching_.28.28NEW.29.29
<RikMills> "Patches are evil." - apachelogger around 2009 
<RikMills> except when they are not :)
<RikMills> if we couldn't patch things, no Ubuntu release would ever make it out the door!
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: I'm working on some stuff I noticed, such as we'd rather have it building against jackd2 than jack1.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: we don't have weakjack?
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: What's weakjack?
<Eickmeyer[m]> (can't find a package name with that)
<OvenWerks> another api that works with all the jacks
<OvenWerks> I think it is another of RG's thing
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, apparently not. Switching out the build deps in the d/control file isn't that hard though.
<OvenWerks> https://github.com/x42/weakjack
<Eickmeyer[m]> And, of course, it's probably not building any sort of standard way, which means I'll have to patch the living junk out of it to get it to build, which means... yeah, not for an LTS.
<OvenWerks>  :)
<OvenWerks> Basically it is the the jack_lib.h file
<Eickmeyer[m]> I see that. Really, that's all it is, but it's so much easier just to change-out the build dep.
<OvenWerks> Nope it doesn't replace it goes inbetween... forget I mentioned it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Building now in my PPA (https://launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages). I'll be out for a while to get my son from school, but I don't forsee any issues.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: cool. I'll have a look later
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Looks like a FTBFS due to the python issue. I'll look more when I get home.
<RikMills> you have 3001-remove-nag-dialog.patch
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Yes. I made that.
<RikMills> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-08
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: I cleaned the living junk out of hydrogen, had to put it in my second PPA because, unbeknownst to me, the hydrogen developers decided to remove the documentation from the main archive, placing it in git somewhere. So, had to repack the archive. This is the final result, lintian-clean, but it still has the nag.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: if I have time this weekend, I'll try to work out why
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: actually, I just installed your package in a clean VM, and there is no nag
<RikMills> maybe you have an old config in ~/.hydrogen/ with the nag set
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Very possible. If you think it's good, go ahead and yeet it into the archive you MOTU you. :)
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: is it good enough for you? does it work as intended? I would have to give the packaging a brief once over, as I have not looked at it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, it works as intended, so I say go for it. RikMills
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yep, I removed my ~/.hydrogen, and it worked without the nag.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Gets sound and everything.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's good.
<RikMills> right, that config keeping is a bit wrong, but no openstudio user will hit that, as the version with the nag will never have been in the archive
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: ok, I will give a quick review in next day or 2, then upload if seems good
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Ack.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: How is -controls looking?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-09
<RikMills> Eickmeyer[m]: uploaded
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Thanks.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: ping
