#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-24
<abogani> persia: Do you have kernel-team's ml subscribed?
<persia> abogani: I don't, but I occasionally read archives
<abogani> persia: Ok. So I CC you in my next email.
<persia> Why>
<persia> ?
<abogani> persia: About kernel replacement for -preempt (which is died).
<persia> No need to cc: me
<persia> I think we all reached a sensible consensus on IRC
<persia> And I think that the people who care (you, apw, rtg, ogarasawa) all have a common undrestanding.
<persia> The email discussion is just for the record, isn't it?
<abogani> It is also about packaging.
<abogani> persia: ^
<abogani> In any case I think to have done a good job.
<persia> How about the packaging?  Wasn7t the agreement to use one git tree and just pull two source packages from it, for the different flavours?
<abogani> persia: I have done a better job: My (source) package is weight only 2.3 MB. That approach require a full copy of linux source code.
<persia> I know.
<persia> I don't currently have the willpower to make a huge fuss at the kernel team about the horrid ways they package,.
<persia> I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the vanilla source ought be packaged and produce headers and a source, and all the flavours should build-dep on that source and apply patches.
<abogani> persia: What exactly I have done in my package.
<abogani> persia: In any case I'll propose to UKT a working package: choice is theirs.
<persia> But the kernel team has the way they do things, and for all it's not ideal, I think it7s probably better to work with that method for the social integration value rather than do it the packaging-clean way.
<persia> This doesn't make me happy, but it's a long, hard fight to make it sane, and it will be easier to have that dicsussion later, once you are integrated as part of the teeam.
<persia> Your choice, really.  I think that they will prefer to continue with their solution, for all that it's not as clean as it could be.
<persia> And I think there's a better chance for you to be part of UKT if you're doing things their way, rather than suggesting alternates.
 * abogani is really starting to think to isn't part of that Team.
<persia> So, for all that I agree with you technically, I'm unsure it's the best social path, or the fastest way to get to the eventually correct technical solution.
<abogani> persia: Convert to the "stupid duplicate linux source code" method require to remove 3 lines in my patch. So I can switch in any moment.
<persia> That makes it easy :)
<abogani> if *they* want.
<persia> My recommendation would get it uploaded including the stupid duplicate source code, and then apply the 3-line patch as a later update "to improve archive quality" or some such.
<persia> That saves the discussion for *after* the users have been served.
<abogani> I never obtain something in this way because all postponed things are ignored completely (when they think that the jos is done they close mind and ears).
<abogani> I'll propose the smart package. If someone show complaints about it I'll switch immediately.
<persia> OK.
 * persia tends to make lists of unfinished stuff, and tries to address them later, in order to allow for staged implementations, because most people fear change
<abogani> Some news about kernels:
<abogani> 1) linux-rt will be updated by smb soon (I hope)
<abogani> 2) Probably we'll have got a low latency kernel for i386 and amd64 and we'll can use it as default for Studio
<abogani> 3) I would want rename old -rt into -realtime 
<abogani> scott-work, ScottL, rlameiro, jussi : ^
<rlameiro> thats great news
<rlameiro> why the renaming abogani ?
<abogani> rlameiro: I would want change approach in the realtime kernel maintenance and I would want let users notice it.
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> is it the hardcore realtime patch?
<abogani> rlameiro: -rt and -realtime are the same kernel with the same "hardcore" realtime patch.
<rlameiro> ok then, i dont see any problem with that then, -realtime can be more persuasive
<rlameiro> altough i would like to stress the possible need of having 2 kernels installed if you are using a laptop, since rt harcore is very power hungry :D
<persia> -realtime is not appropriate for the vast majority of our users.
<persia> The only folks that need it are those who are pushing the absolute limits of their hardware (for Studio)
<persia> -realtime is much more interesting in other contexts (VoIP server, industrial process monitor, robotics, etc.)
<rlameiro> persia: not only studio, you need realtime if you are performing on show with eavy processing (my case)
<persia> rlameiro: You fall into that minority who are pushing the limits of their hardware.
<scott-work> abogani: what kerenl version is the -rt based on?
<rlameiro> persia: yes i know, but that minority is not only studio, that can be misleading
<persia> rlameiro: By "Studio" I mean Ubuntu Studio, rather than use in a studio. (note the capital S)
<rlameiro> and there is alot of people using laptop for effects and gigs recording so if you use ubuntustudio, usually you would like to use some of them
<persia> Sorry for the confusion.
<rlameiro> ahhhhhh]
<rlameiro> ok
<abogani> scott-work: 2.6.31 in Lucid and 2.6.33 in Maverick.
<persia> I know lots of folks who do recording (even with some effects) using the -generic kernel with success.  it all depends on hardware/filter relations.
<rlameiro> well, the idea of 2 kernels is if you are working on hardcore audio you boot with rt, elese boot with generic for genpurpose usage
<scott-work> i have had respectable success using -generic kernel to record on a P4/2.3 ghz machine (granted I was only recording two inputs max at a time)
 * rlameiro is thinking on the help/wikis piling up to do after delivering the thesis....
<abogani> scott-work: -lowlatency works better than -generic and it is equally rock-solid.
<persia> rlameiro: Right, but my point is that we don't want to suggest most folks use -realtime.  -preempt is sufficient.
 * persia agrees with abogani
 * abogani agress with persia
<persia> rlameiro: Those few folks who *need* -realtime should use it, and I am glad it's available, but...
<rlameiro> persia: for sure that is in line with my statement
<scott-work> *me agrees with abogani and by association agrees with persia
<rlameiro> have 2 kernels and only use rt when strictly necessary
 * scott-work fail
<persia> rlameiro: And that should be best practice, indeed.
<rlameiro> so maybe at install time rt kernel should never be put as  the default boot
<persia> Note that there's a side issue with DKMS, that makes it annoying to do that, because one needs to find a way to make sure modules are built for all installed kernels.
<rlameiro> on grub
<persia> It hasn't been since Hardy, and I don't believe we're changing that.  The current plan for Maverick (as I understand it) is to have abogani merge -preempt and -lowlatency into a single -preempt, and have that default for the install.
<rlameiro> abogani: is it plausible that in the next future mainstream kernel have the RT capabilities and be started on the fly?
<rlameiro> like only use RT when we need?
<persia> That's far future.
 * rlameiro admits i dont get kernel stuff deeply...
<rlameiro> sad...
<persia> Short term, we need different kernel sources.
<persia> Medium term, realtime will be selectable at compile time
<rlameiro> well at least we have it, others doesnt have kernels for that
<persia> I've heard of plans to make the scheduler selectable at runtime, but that's an interesting issue (how do you maintain context over the switch)
<rlameiro> and hopefully longterm it will be hardcoded into the main kernel and fired up when needed :D
<abogani> ehhhh
<persia> Well, kinda, but not really.
<rlameiro> maybe using flags on the sofware startup...
 * rlameiro is dreaming to much
<abogani> rlameiro: :-)
<persia> It may be possible, long-term, to have a userspace utility that can switch between realtime and non-realtime, and use a wrapper around stuff, but by that point, I hope we don't care.
<rlameiro> persia: for instance puredta by default doesnt use rt capabilities, but if i run it with "-rt" it will use it :D
<persia> rlameiro: That's entirely different.  That's about the RT capabilities in the kernel, rather than about whether the kernel scheduler is actually realtime.
<rlameiro> persia: at that point we wont need realtime anymore, the kernel will absorb it already :D
<persia> All modern kernels have RT capabilities, so you can do very tight scheduling, if you request it.
<rlameiro> persia: i know, i just wanted to ilustrate a possible switching technique
<persia> That said, it's usually soft realtime, so you end up missing by microseconds.
<persia> That's not how it would work.
<persia> Hard realtime vs, soft realtime isn't something you can switch on a per-process basis.  it can only be for the entire system.
<rlameiro> or maybe having a wrapper like $rt ardour-gtk
<persia> Hard realtime typically imposes an overall performance penalty, in exchange for improved reliability of scheduling.
<rlameiro> well, that may be true, but even with rt posibilities not all software use it
<rlameiro> most of them are unaware of that
<persia> Soft realtime fails to have perfectly reliable scheduling, but with better performance.
<persia> This isn't fixable: it's the nature of how it works.
 * abogani notice than persia is really well informed. :-)
<rlameiro> i would like to try the soft scheduling on 192khz recording
<scott-work> but what is the order of magnitude in the delta between soft and real time?
<persia> scott-work: In what sense?
<scott-work> time?
<abogani> scott-work: Don't exist.
<persia> overall time-to-complete-a-process or time-between-desired-process-start-and-real-process-start?
<scott-work> that shouldn't have been a questions on my part
 * abogani would want let you noticed than lowlatency/preempt will be a great kernel. It have only a little more power consumption so for laptop users it is still suggest to use -generic when they working on battery.
<persia> rlameiro: 192kHz means that you have 5microseconds per sample.
<rlameiro> persia: i know :D
<persia> rlameiro: So, if you use soft realtime, you'll end up losing samples if you try to do too much processing.  If you use hard realtime, you'll end up losing processing if you try to do too much.
<rlameiro> on full duplex you get 2.5uS
<persia> No.
<persia> the entire point of jack is to be sample-accurate for N channels.
<persia> So within an individual timeslice, there's no per-channel scheduling.
<rlameiro> yeah
<persia> That said, you may have to monitor your time-to-complete-the-filter vs. number-of-channels.
<rlameiro> well i did recordede in 192khz on the 9.10..
<persia> If it worked, it probably didn't matter if it was hard realtime or soft realtime
<rlameiro> persia: hard realtime kernel
<rlameiro> it matters if you have 8 audio inputs at the same time
<persia> Because if you go overlimit on processing availability in either case, you get artifacts.
<persia> depends on your codec, amount of CPU requirements for the codec, number of cores, etc.
<rlameiro> you need to clear the audio buffres really fast and for that you need a tight schedule
<persia> If you have an external firewire audio interface and a multicore machine, it likely doesn't matter.
<rlameiro> yes i have... busted
<persia> If you have such a device, you'll do better with soft realtime, as your interface (should) be buffering, and you're just pulling samples off the firewire network, so throughput should be more important than schedule.
<rlameiro> well anyway, the idea is to advice for the generic kernel, then having the lowlatency kernel as a second choice and only if the user wants have the -realtime kernel isnt that?
<persia> If you are using an AC'97 codec or other CPU-intensive AD conversion, you'd need hard realtime.
<persia> No.
<persia> For Maverick, we'll recommend -preempt, and have -realtime available for folks who need it, and -generic for folks who care more about battery life than performance.
<rlameiro> abogani would want let you noticed than lowlatency/preempt will be a great kernel. It have only a little more power consumption so for laptop users it is still suggest to use -generic when they working on battery.
<rlameiro> so do we need to diferentiate laptop users and desktop?
<rlameiro> is it possible to do on the alternate install?
<scott-work> that is something i have been thinking about because they have appreciably divergent needs
 * scott-work is catching up on backscroll now
<scott-work> persia, abogani: my questions was somewhat rhetorical, i'm thinking that with new, faster machines and improved kernel code that the possible differences between -hard and -soft might not be appriciable for most people
 * abogani never use the term "soft"...
<rlameiro> abogani: i think he is refering to the aproach of the kernel config
<rlameiro> soft beeing more conventional
<rlameiro> hard with hard config plus patches
<abogani> I totally miss the point.
<abogani> Could we speak about *user requirements* instead of *soft vs hard* ?
<rlameiro> maybe scott-work is trying to point that as the hardware become better the need for realtime kernels decreases
<rlameiro> or the generic can do better...
<persia> abogani: By "soft" realtime I mean a non-realtime kernel attempting to satisfy scheduling requests made with RT_CAP
<abogani> rlameiro: I don't agree: people surely find a way to use the new power.
<rlameiro> abogani: i was trying to disect scott-work statement
<persia> People will always need to be able to choose between optimising for performance vs. optimising for schedule reliability.
<rlameiro> i am sure i would find a way to use the power :D
<scott-work> there is a hard limit to all kernel achievements in scheduling (you can consider this to be perfect physics in a vacuum or textbook if you like)
<persia> But for our purposes, as devices become more powerful and more distributed, we care less.
<scott-work> the ignio's patch gets us most of the way there i believe
<scott-work> but we will keep making improvements in other methods until the delta isn't appreciable (in a newtonian's method)
<scott-work> this, i believe
<scott-work> sorry that i'm talking like yoda, i keep getting interrupted today
<scott-work> i've been looking into the ardour mute bug #581786
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 581786 in Ubuntu Studio "Mute button not enabled by default in Ardour 2.8.6 Lucid AM64" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/581786
<scott-work> and i need some advice from those who are knowledgable in packaging and bug fixing
<scott-work> the problem seems to stem from the ardour.rc file which shows several mute options with "yes", which does not parse well
<scott-work> s/ardour.rc/ardour.rc.in
<scott-work> these get written to the users home directly as "0" in an ardour.rc file
<scott-work> i made a patch in my ppa which corrects this BUT the existing ardour.rc file in the user's home needs to be deleted or renamed first for it to be effective for new projects in ardour
<scott-work> someone on #ubuntu-motu suggested using a wrapper script since maintainer scripts shoudl *NOT* touch home, but a wrapper script (if careful) could
<scott-work> before going any further, is this a solid methodology (the wrapper script adjusting settings on home directory)?
<persia> I prefer not to do that
<abogani> I hate sw than to that.
<persia> I prefer to set defaults correctly, and tell users who have already the wrong default to adjust it manually
<persia> otherwise we risk the chance of overwriting the choice of a user who deliberately set it that way.
<abogani> it is the right way.
<rlameiro> persia: do you know when is due 10.04.1?
<persia> Not offhand.  Schedule should say.
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<scott-work> july 29th
<rlameiro> it doesnt persia 
<scott-work> according to the maverick schedule
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule
<persia> Bother.  Someone failed to update all the schedules.
<persia> rlameiro: Feel like fixing it :)
<rlameiro> no not now :D
<scott-work> persia: okay, i'll drop the wrapper script direction and fixing users local files, get a patch for ardour, and mail/post users about it
<rlameiro> so until when can we send updtes for 10.04.1
<persia> scott-work: The key bit is to find out where the bug really exists.  Is it an Ubuntu bug?  A Debian bug?  An Upstream bug?  Who authored the .rc file?
<persia> rlameiro: Usually about a week beforehand, but we can only do that if we are doing image testing.
<scott-work> this is from the source and others have reported the same problem on other distributions (including debian and arch)
<persia> Best to check with the release team to find out the requirements for us to participate in 10.04.1
<rlameiro> i can test images
<rlameiro> well we do have very urgent bugs to solve there
<persia> scott-work: That's what I thought.  I've had others suggest upstream claims it's an Ubuntu thing.  Maybe good to submit a patch upstream so that they ship a different default.
<rlameiro> at least the network manager and this ardour
<persia> Right, but unless the release team agrees to spin us images, etc., the date doesn't matter.
<persia> We can post to -updates at any time, and users who install after a post to -updates and do an upgrade will get the right results.
<jussi> didnt the release team just do that?
<scott-work> persia: http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=2832 this shows that it's fixed in "A3", which I don't know what it is, I could presume ardour-3.0 but i haven't had time to email the guy who made the post
<rlameiro> dont they do it automatically when there are bugs on the already shipped distros?
<rlameiro> *isos
<persia> jussi: Where/How?
<persia> No.
<rlameiro> persia: again the same problem, you dont have network to do updates
<persia> scott-work: Cool!  that's a big step forward from last I saw.  You may want to get quadrispro to update that in Debian.
<scott-work> persia: in that url you will find paul stating that is a problem and a "fix" was implemented and was hoping for confirmation
<persia> rlameiro: I understand, *but* it depends on whether we have images.
<scott-work> after i get the form of the patch determined i was going to work with debian, i.e. hoping to regiester with debian/bugs, file a report, post the patch, tell quadrispro
<scott-work> persia: ^
<persia> No registration needed for Debian BTS: it accepts mail from anyone
<scott-work> persia: BUT, my next question is about the patch, i was going to make a debdiff
<scott-work> can i do this from two source packages via the *.dsc file?
<persia> I believe you must, in fact.  The debdiff program expects two .dsc files as arguments.
<scott-work> oh, i was worried that this will not catch all pervasive changes throughout all the subdirectories and files
<scott-work> and i thought you could actually run debdiff on the actual .deb files?
<persia> You can, but that's not the sort of debdiff anyone wants to apply as a fix.
<scott-work> persia: fantastic!  did you see my previous comments about the network bug as well?
<scott-work> short story: i found network-admin on the studio dvd but it was not installed on a vanilla lucid install
<persia> No.  I'm on my fourth computer in as many weeks, and have not managed to follow backscroll well.
<scott-work> that would lead me to think that unapplying a patch would not adversely affect vanilla users :)
<persia> OK.  We need to hunt down why and fix that.
<persia> Oh, no it oughtn't.
<rlameiro> scott-work: http://pastebin.com/iumf644y
<persia> Mostly just needs discussion with the Desktop folks (#ubuntu-desktop)
<rlameiro> can i post this comment to the ardour bug?
<rlameiro> just for peace of mind of the reporter?
<persia> Please don't do it that way.  Please add an upstream task to the bug instead.
<persia> "Also affects project..." is the way to start.
<rlameiro> ok
<persia> The folks in #ubuntu-bugs tend to be experts at doing this (much more than I)
<persia> That links it in a way that shows up on all sorts of reports, etc.
<rlameiro> persia: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ardour/+bug/581786
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 581786 in Ubuntu Studio "Mute button not enabled by default in Ardour 2.8.6 Lucid AM64" [Undecided,New]
<persia> rlameiro: You might also want to open an Ardou (Ubuntu) task ("Also affects Distribution ..."), and set the Studio task to Triaged, and the Ubuntu task to Confirmed.
<persia> Might be good to set some importances as well.  I'd say "High" for Studio and "Medium" for Ubuntu, but that's just my opinion.
<scott-work> i have ardour built already with a patch, hopefully i'll clean up the changelog (from ~ppa1) and submit the patch to the bug and file a bug with debian as well
<scott-work> ...early this week
<rlameiro> i cant touch on importances
<rlameiro> persia: can you do it?
<persia> I can.
<persia> You should be able to set Importance for Studio, I think.  Talk to ScottL about getting that.
<persia> For Ubuntu, you'd have to work with the bugsquad (who hang out in #ubuntu-bugs)
<persia> To get the ability to change importance, you have to have a record of 5 well-triaged bugs.
<rlameiro> well i cant triage on any of them also
<rlameiro> just in progress fix comitted fix...etc
<persia> same permission issue
<persia> same folks to talk to about it
<scott-work> shouldn't we also add Debian on the bug report, wouldn't that preclude having to create a debian bug?
<persia> No.  One creates a Debian bug and then links it in LP
<scott-work> okay, i'll take of that then
<scott-work> persia: you mentioned talking to #ubuntu-desktop about the network bug, shall I do that as well?
<persia> Someone needs to.  You'd be a good candidate, if you have time.
<scott-work> for this i will make time :)
<rlameiro> i am on the ubuntu-bugs channel
<rlameiro> waiting som charity person to help me :D
<scott-work> i think persia might have changed some of the settings rlameiro 
<rlameiro> scott-work: i think this is nice... seeing the channel and the people working together and helping each other and trying to fix problems
<scott-work> haha, i was just thinking the same things and almost typed it as well :)
<scott-work> i was thinking about how effective it is and how much power it has
<rlameiro> yeah, it makes me confident on the future
<scott-work> i believe the more effective we are (and the more we show and demonstrate that effectiveness) the more others will be attracted to it
<rlameiro> persia is indeed a valuable friend :D I have a lot to learn with him, and with all of you guys :D
<scott-work> +1 for persia :)
<rlameiro> i think to big problem we have its that the eavy work is limited to few persons
<rlameiro> so, the most people learning to do things the better
<rlameiro> even if the things are simple it is a little help
<abogani> Did you notice than seems he never sleep? Perhaps he have got some supernatural power...
<rlameiro> yeah
<rlameiro> persia:  do you sleep ????
<rlameiro> hehe persia rocks
<scott-work> he commented that he isn't diurnal (which means he doesn't divide his day into two parts, awake and asleep)
<rlameiro> interesting?
<rlameiro> so i makes periods of sleep and awake
<persia> Rather, I don't have a 24-hour cycle.
<rlameiro> i eared about that
<persia> A common week is usually 4-5 days for me.
<rlameiro> where do you live?
<rlameiro> on the north?
<rlameiro> abogani: do you know if the realtime patches can be applied on other architectures?
<rlameiro> say ARM??
<scott-work> in my old(er) age i certainly have a 24-hour cycle, if i don't get to bed by 11:00 i start to get cranky :P
<rlameiro> scott-work: :D from friday to saturday i made it withou sleep
<rlameiro> i went to sleep at 19:30 and get up at 5 morning
<rlameiro> then i go to sleep at 7 again untill 11
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> i cant get also with it.
<rlameiro> i am getting old...
<scott-work> but i also get up before 6:00 even on weekends
<persia> It's really not an age thing.  When I was younger, I did it differently.
<scott-work> later at night and early in the morning is when i can get the most done while the family is asleep :)
<persia> When I was in uni, I used to go to bed around 19:00 or 20:00 and get up around 2:00
<rlameiro> i do enjoy working during the night
<rlameiro> i prefer night hours than day
<rlameiro> i am much more efficient
<persia> But as I get older, I find it's harder to get my body to follow a schedule, and it's better to sleep when tired, do stuff when awake.
<rlameiro> yea, i hear guitarman talking about power naps
<persia> (although I do tend to try to go to bed earlier to give time before I have to meet folks)
<rlameiro> and caffeine naps
<rlameiro> like take a coffe go to sleep 15 minutes and then you wake up energized with the caffeine making the effect :D
<rlameiro> well i am aproved on the ubuntu bugsquad :D
<persia> Cool!
<scott-work> wtg!  oh, i should do that too, how did you do it?
<rlameiro> now i need to do some bugs to get into the bugscontrol
<rlameiro> sign ubuntu COC rea the triage wiki and join the mailing list, then apply on the team launchpad and send a mail to mailing list and wait for approval
<rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad
<rlameiro> lol the guy that accept me is also portuguese
<rlameiro> hehe
<persia> I don't believe he lives there anymore, but yes.
<rlameiro> he is living in Texas
<falktx> (outro portugues...)
<rlameiro> yeap falktx 
<rlameiro> we are everywhere
<rlameiro> i was amazed when some days ago on the train i noticed a guy using a strange OS on a netbook, guess what ubuntu :D i even tought to aproach him, but we where getting at the final station
<rlameiro> it nice to see normal peopl using it :D
<rlameiro> and in portugal even more, people in here use a lot of pirated software, a lot.... i even had an answer about floss software like this
<rlameiro> why would i intall it if i can have the others for free...
<rlameiro> scott-work: :D one more :D
<scott-work> yay!
<rlameiro> thats the portuguese guy
<falktx> hm, scott?
<rlameiro> scott-work: ping
<scott-work> hello falktx
<falktx> are you portuguese?
<scott-work> no, i'm american, from texas
<falktx> so, who's the other portuguese guy?
<rlameiro> falktx: its one of the leaders of the ubuntu bugsquad
<falktx> so we have a lot of pt guys in ubuntu!
<rlameiro> yeap
<falktx> also nuno-pinheiro from kde
<falktx> he's one of the designers
<falktx> http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/
<rlameiro> falktx: #ubuntu-pt
<falktx> nice
<falktx> one more channel to the list
<abogani> ScottL, scott-work: ping
<scott-work> hi abogani: pong
 * scott-work has been in a meeting disucssing upcoming reviews
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-25
<ScottL> i added a patch to the ardour mute bug # 581786
<ScottL> persia: i received an email from luis today with a +1
<persia> Cool.  Sounds like you've collected the whole set, and win the prize :)
<ScottL> lol, yeah, a whole set of responsibilities ;)
<ScottL> however, i was also thinking of talking to #ubuntu-desktop tonight about the network-admin bug
<ScottL> if there anything in particular i should point out to them persia?
<ScottL> persia, TheMuso, jussi, i've almost finished my ubuntu membership application and I was wondering if you would be kind enough to write a testimonial for me
<ScottL> i should be done with it either tomorrow or the following night :)
<ScottL> lol, i see TheMuso is popular, he just got asked for an endorsement in -desktop as well
<jussi> ScottL: well itd actually help if you linked us to your wiki page....
<abogani> kernels don't built in PPA! Sgrunt!
<abogani> persia: ^ :-(((((
<abogani> persia, ScottL : https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2010-May/010707.html
<persia> What!  Why don't kernels build in a PPA?  I thought apw did this regularly.
<abogani> persia: I received this error:
<abogani> http://paste.ubuntu.com/439296/
<abogani> persia: Moreover I don't think than apw really do it.
<abogani> They release packages at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/ (which it isn't launchpad).
<abogani> I suppose that "ppa" should be removed for avoid confusion...
<abogani> Perhaps kernel-ppa is the user who used for build kernels on Zinc (that is kernel.ubuntu.com)...
<persia> abogani: He really does it: https://launchpad.net/~apw
<persia> Hrm.  Timeouts suck.  Try uploading the regular kernel, and see if that makes a difference.
<abogani> persia: Ok. Evidently their are some type of super powers.
<persia> I have a feeling that either there's a special hack in launchpad, or something else is wonky.
<persia> These are extendable :)
<persia> Just need to track down the cause, and then the folks in #launchpad can sort it.
<abogani> persia: I have already done it: If I remove -pae images it build. 
<persia> Interesting.
<persia> So it just takes too long?
<abogani> persia: More than 10 hours.
<abogani> On LP.
<abogani> Obviously it build perfectly in two hours on my machine with pbuilder (variant=buildd)
<persia> Yeah, and it gets killed after 150 minutes.
<persia> Ask in #launchpad if there's something special for kernel builds that allows them to take longer.
<persia> if not, we can add a script that just prints something every 30 minutes or so to prevent the timeout.
<abogani> persia: Asked.
<abogani> persia: You mean an infinite loop with a sleep and an echo  inside?
<persia> I'd probably not use an infinite loop.  Make it exit after say 36 iterations (gives you 18 hours).
<abogani> Sound really nasty trick
<persia> It's definitely in the deep workaround category :)  Usually better to figure out why the build didn't print anything for 18 hours.
<persia> Most of the time there's some buildsystem flag that makes it more verbose, etc.
<abogani> DH_VERBOSE?
<abogani> persia: Full log at http://launchpadlibrarian.net/49048008/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-i386.linux-lowlatency_2.6.32-22.38_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<persia> DH_VERBOSE only helps for the debhelper bits.
<persia> You'd need something that made kernel-wedge copy-modules more verbose at the point where it appaers to hang for 150 minutes.
<abogani> It could be very easy: place an "set -x" at top of the copy-modules should be work (and also add that file to the package changing also rules to point on this).
<persia> that's a lot cleaner than the while/sleep hack.
<persia> And probably more informative as to the cause of the underlying error.
<persia> But I'd recommend checking to see if wgrant has any other ideas before just uploading that :)
<abogani> If he continue to consider me...
<persia> He knows more about the build system than the both of us combined.  You might suggest the -x trick and see what he thinks.
<abogani> Ok
<persia> he might have a different recomemndation, or want more time to think, or say "Go ahea and try".
<ScottL> jussi, here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender
<ScottL> i originally was waiting to give the link until i completely finished it, but i cleaned up the bottom of it enough this morning though
<ScottL> thank you
<abogani> Wow!
<abogani> It seems very completed.
 * abogani would want give thanks to all who correct his horrible English! Thanks!
<persia> ScottL: contributions to Ubuntu Studio *are* contributions to Ubuntu.
<persia> There's a reason we're part of a larger project :)
<persia> ScottL: I don't sit on the board that will review your application (wrong continent), but excepting the false distinction between contributions to Ubuntu Studio and contributions to Ubuntu, your application is one of the most complete and compelling I've ever seen.
 * abogani agrees
<abogani> but my opinion don't worth much
<persia> abogani: On the contrary.  You're an Ubuntu Member, so your testimonial carries considerable weight with the approval boards.  If you feel that way, please add a testimonial to ScottL's wiki page.
<abogani> persia: For sure If someone review my English. :-)
<quadrispro> ScottL, why don't you apply for MOTUship?
<abogani> MOTUship?
<quadrispro> abogani, to become ubuntu-developer
<jussi> !motu
<ubottu> motu is short for Masters of the Universe. The brave souls who maintain the packages in the Universe section of Ubuntu. See  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<abogani> quadrispro: So perhaps it is a mentoring program?
<quadrispro> abogani, there was a mentoring program, I think persia knows much more about it than me
<abogani> persia: (re -preempt) I suppose than they meant "remove for main git tree".
<persia> abogani: I know, and you know, but I want them to know that :)
<abogani> persia: :-)
<abogani> lol
<persia> My fear is that they will decide they get to ignore it just because it's a different source package.
<persia> And then leave known bugs in it.
<quadrispro> bye guys
<persia> I'm kinda against the mentoring program.
<persia> I used to be a mentor (one of my mentees is in the channel), but I think folks who want to be MOTU do better just qworking with other MOTU.
<abogani> It is exactly what I expect from them.
<abogani> persia: ^
<persia> That said, MOTU is *not* the only way to become a developer these days.
<abogani> quadrispro: Ciao!
<persia> abogani: That would be sad, really, but yes.
<abogani> persia: I would want let you notice than I totally ignored in #launchpad (for build kernel in PPA) and in #ubuntu-kernel (for new kernel). What you would do in my shoes?
<persia> I don't think you were ignored in #launchpad.
<persia> I saw some traffic.
<persia> That nobody who was around had a good answer is a different matter.
<persia> At least two active Soyuz developers did talk to you about the issue.
<persia> I've also seen a fair bit of commentary about the new kernel in #ubuntu-kernel.  If they folks there don't sponsor your upload, try pointing imbrandon at it (he said he was interested in that class of kernels)
<abogani> persia: I _really_ more and more appreciate imbrandon help but ....
<abogani> persia: Did you notice than kernel people have got a very big ego? If I bypass them I can incur in some problems in future...
<persia> Most of them can't upload anything at all.
<persia> Do you feel that the earlier discussion was sufficient that they expect a new kernel to be uploaded?
<persia> Do you really think they care how it gets uploaded, as long as you work with them on it otherwise?
<abogani> :-(
<persia> What?
<persia> It may be because I'm a bit distracted, but I'm not understanding the issue.
<abogani> The issue is than I don't know what is the right way to do this things.  So I can't know how answer to your questions.
<abogani> Simply I'm trying to do things in most reasonable way.
<abogani> By the way, Anyone could review my English for Scott's application?
<persia> In my opinion, the right way is to do what it takes to get stuff done, trying to involve as many folks as possible for comment in the process.
<persia> And if anyone objects to anything, discuss it reasonably and get it fixed.
<persia> Especially at the beginning of a cycle, it's usually better to just do stuff and then fix it.
<persia> Things can be undone later, but once freezes begin to arrive, it's hard to do new stuff.
<abogani> I agree with you but We should in two for "discuss". For example the last wgrant's suggestion was "abogani: You should prevent it from taking that long." It isn't seems a discussion to me.
<abogani> scott-work: Dow you have a minute for me?
<scott-work> abogani: certainly :)
<abogani> scott-work: Could you review English on my comment about your application? :-)
<scott-work> abogani: i am always happy to review your English on anything :)
<abogani> scott-work: ;)
<scott-work> *sigh*
<scott-work> persia, i've attempted to talk to the #ubuntu-desktop people a few times about the network-admin bug and i'm not receiving much response
<scott-work> i'm going to look for someone to contact directly unless you have a better suggestion
<persia> scott-work: I'd recommend checking with the changelog owner for the changelog entry dropping the patch.
<persia> If they don't respond, just do it (as it indicates a lack of interest on their part)
<scott-work> i shall
<persia> If they object to just doing it, the discussion has started.  As long as you're respectful from that point, the result should remain good.
<abogani> persia: smb is volunteer to update linux-rt (in Lucid), apw is volunteer for review and find someone with upload rights for -lowlatency.
<abogani> persia: At the moment miss only the right man for upload upgrades in Maverick.
<abogani> persia: About -rt I meant.
<abogani> persia: Tomorrow I'll try to request that to imbrandon.
<persia> The only other kernel uploaders are tgraner and ogarasawa
<persia> ogarasawa is busy in the role of primary uploader: I'm not sure she'll have time.
<persia> And tgraner is always too busy.
<abogani> persia: I don't think to have chance with them.
<persia> I'd go with imbrandon, unless you expect someone will complain.
<abogani> persia: I am too slow in typing...
<abogani> :-)
<persia> Given that you're actively working with the security team, I doubt they will have any issues if someone else uploads, as long as it's a good upload.
<persia> And I'm fairly certain that by working with these folks, you can improve your developer application, and be able to upload directly in a couple months.
<abogani> persia: At the moment I would want only let our users in a better situation (my application could wait).
<persia> I know.  It's just awkward hunting sponsors in a narrow domain, because so many folks are afraid to upload kernels.
<persia> So things will be easier once that's also sorted.
<abogani> I hope.
<persia> Indeed.  We'll see.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-26
<ScottL> wow, thanks for the outstanding testimonial persia!
<TheMuso> ScottL, persia, crimsun, we now have jack2 in maverick.
<TheMuso> I did nothing beyond merging/updating jack in maverick, so if things are broken, plesae tell me. :)
<jussi> ooh sexy
<ScottL> hehe, that's so cool TheMuso , i really look forward to the alpha now :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, will this have any affect on qjackctl?
<TheMuso> ScottL: it may.
<ScottL> that's probably good at this point because i think there is a bug in qjackctl that prevents connections from being made
<ScottL> i wanted to test a few other cases and then i was going to file a bug this weekend
<ScottL> jussi, TheMuso :  i wanted to remind you about membership application  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender
<ScottL> i will not bother you again about it, i promise :)
<TheMuso> ScottL: heh ok, will tend to that now.
<ScottL> thanks!
 * ScottL is off to work
<scott-work> i am hopefully going to send an email about the network manager bug today
<scott-work> it will be sent to the last person who refreshed the 10_disable_interface.patch from the changelog requesting it to be removed
<scott-work> persia: however, yesterday you said that if they didn't show any interest, to just do it.
<scott-work> if you meant to remove the patch i am unsure of how to effect that in the repository, i can download source, remove patch, yadda, yadda, but i don't expect to be able to upload it
<scott-work> can someone also point me in the direction of the lists of an iso, i want to be able to prove to chris coulsen that gnome-network-admin is *not* included by default on a vanilla desktop install?
<falktx> i know i casper/filesystem.manifest
<falktx> has the list of all packages in a live cd/dvd
<scott-work> thanks falktx 
<scott-work> i think there is also a web page that also lists the manifests of installed packages
<falktx> i think too
<falktx> http://releases.ubuntu.com/lucid/ubuntu-10.04-desktop-i386.manifest
<scott-work> captial!  i believe that is it, thanks again falktx 
<falktx> glad to help
<abogani2> persia: Now PPA kernel build works. Bah!
<scott-work> persia: re: network-admin bug:   yesterday you said that if they didn't show any interest, to just do it.
<scott-work> sorry for cut a paste out of context, this is about removing the disable_interface patch
<scott-work> lmms apparently isn't going to be developed "as-is" anymore    http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2662
<scott-work> looks like they are going for a rewrite
<falktx> for 3 months now i think
<falktx> although the mailing list is still active
<falktx> (a patch was recently accepted)
<scott-work> email sent to chris coulson about the gnome-network-admin bug, i felt i was courteous and informative :)
<abogani2> scott-work: You have been a lot.
<scott-work> i am passionate about making ubuntu studio better :)
<abogani2> scott-work: :-)
<scott-work> i awake with ubuntu studio and go to sleep with ubuntu studio
<scott-work> (eww, that sounded a little bad)
<abogani2> scott-work: Exactly ^
<abogani2> scott-work: Please accept my suggestion: don't exaggerate (<- sorry I don't know if it is the right word) !
<scott-work> abogani2: don't take it to extremes and burn out?
<abogani2> scott-work: Exactly :8-)
<scott-work> abogani2: yes, i worry about it, but i *really* do enjoy getting things organized and it take emmense pleasure from making things happen (even if I don't really *do* anything other than coordinate)
<scott-work> oh, and debian released ardour-2.7.1 fixing the mute bug (and using new upstream source)
<scott-work> i'll make a sync request later for maverick
<scott-work> persia: which membership board do you sit on?
<scott-work> the north american board doesn't seem to move very often (application is still there from dec '09) so i was considering one of the others, i would need to avoid yours or remove your testimonial i suppose
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-27
<stochastic_> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1494767  always nice to read something like this
<ScottL> hi stochastic_ !
<stochastic_> hey ScottL 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-28
 * abogani2 has just offered to Ubuntu Kernel Team the Low latency kernel flavour git trees. Cross-fingers. :-)
 * abogani2 has just offered to Ubuntu Kernel Team the Low latency kernel flavour git trees.
<quadrispro> ScottL, pkg-multimedia has landed on the earth -> https://launchpad.net/~pkg-multimedia-maintainers :)
<ScottL> quadrispro, that's really cool!  what a great idea
<ScottL> abogani2, hopefully UKT is receptive (crosses fingers also)
<ScottL> quadrispro, can i become an honorary member :P
<falktx> me too!
<quadrispro> ScottL, now I'm merging pkg-multimedia with motumedia team
<ScottL> lol falktx 
<falktx> ?
<ScottL> i was kidding, really.  but you might be a good fit with them since you do so much more packaging than i
<falktx> you might want to check this out:
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/wine-rt
<quadrispro> ScottL, falktx and anyone who wants to contribute to pkg-multimedia: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMultimedia/Join -> please join us! :)
<falktx> i'll sure do!
<quadrispro> the team on Launchpad is just a mirrored account
 * falktx sometimes get the idea that ppl are mad at him
<jussi> falktx: of course we are :P :P :P :P
<falktx> because i went a different path
 * jussi hugs falktx
<falktx> oh!
 * falktx hugs jussi
<ScottL> awww, that's cute
<falktx> but really, 
<falktx> just need to know if anyone is upset with me trying to do things my way...
 * ScottL hopes falktx keeps hanging out in this channel
 * falktx will never leave
<jussi> falktx: I think the thing is to get stuff into ubuntu, you need to do it a certain way.
 * ScottL is off to work, be back on in 35 mins
<jussi> seya soon ScottL
<falktx>   hehe, thanks
<falktx> see ya ScottL
<scott-work> quadrispro: to join the launchpad team, should there be a 'join this team' button or do i only need to 'contact this team's owner' ?
<quadrispro> scott-work, I'm updating the team's description
<quadrispro> please give me just some minute
<scott-work> quadrispro: ack, no worries mate, it's my boneheadedness, i now see the 'subscription policy'
<scott-work> interesting Lennart Poettering video from LAC 2010   http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2010/recordings/day1_1400_Pro_Audio_is_Easy_Consumer_Audio_is_Hard.ogv
<scott-work> he touches on some things and explains them that are not normally discussed
<stochastic_> Hi all, what's new in these parts?
 * stochastic_ has been inexplicably absent for a while
<ScottL> hi stochastic
<ScottL> maverick alpha is coming out soon with jack2 :)
<ScottL> quadrispro has a _lot_ of lv2 apps moving into debian as well
<stochastic> nice
<ScottL> we addressed a ardour bug that disabled the mute buttons
<ScottL> and we are finally trying to address the gnome-network-admin bug
 * ScottL is going out to eat with family
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-29
<ScottL> hi rlameiro 
<rlameiro> hey ScottL  :D
<ScottL> can someone tell if it was ubuntu studio 9.10 that we broken pretty badly?
<ScottL> if it was ubuntu studio 9.10 that was broken, would that translate into a vanilla ubuntu 9.10 user who used the -rt kernel?
<ScottL> sorry, that was a really stupid question...9.10 was karmic and i know that karmic wasn't brouken
<ScottL> broken, even
<holstein> was it 8.10 that did not ship with an RT kernel?
<holstein> that was enough for me at the time
<holstein> i didnt know how to F with grub at all
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-30
<detrate> ScottL: I will be doing some wordpress work this weekend that I will be able to duplicate over to ubuntu studio's new webiste
<detrate> site*
<holstein> hey guys
<holstein> im going to be helping out with the newsletter
<holstein> the ubuntu news letter
<holstein> id really like to use this to help the studio project
<holstein> if anyone has any links to news
<holstein> or any ideas
<holstein> send them my way
 * holstein will try to remember to send a message like this VIA the email list
<ScottL> detrate, that rocks!  i'm pretty excited to see what you came up with :)
<ScottL> holstein, which newsletter?  helping ubuntu studio would be awesome though
<holstein> hey ScottL :)
<holstein> thest
<holstein> these*
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue194
<holstein> my recruiter says that there has to be a link to the news
<holstein> for reference i guess
<holstein> other than that
<holstein> i think its wide open
 * holstein cant believe bogani didnt get membership
<holstein> or ppu status or whatever
<detrate> ScottL: no design yet, I'm working on technical stuff, tying plugins together and building on a strong theme foundation, building a base application for wordpress as a custom CMS, so we'll just have to restyle, change user names for social media sites and make minor changes
<ScottL> holstein, i think he's trying to get ppu rights for a very, very select item, i.e. kernel
<ScottL> i think it's just going to be hard because of the limited people involved
<ScottL> detrate, oh, heh   i was getting excited for nothing then ;)
<detrate> oh, it's not nothing ;)
<ScottL> oh, and holstein, that's pretty wicked that you are going to helping out with *that* newsletter
<holstein> my friend akgraner is in charge of it
<holstein> and has asked a few folks for help
<holstein> i think we should make some new up
<holstein> fabricate some new
<holstein> s
<holstein> about what we need for ubuntustudio
<holstein> as long as its on a web page
<holstein> not even fabricate really
<holstein> just get the right info out to hopefully the right folks in the community
<ScottL> !proposed
<ScottL> !backports
<ubottu> If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they may go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports - See also !packaging
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-23
<ScottL> persia, i didn't see any wiki pages that specifically addressed development teams as i did for delegated teams
<ScottL> my presumption is that they would function in a similar manner however
<persia> Then I did it wrong :)
<persia> Indeed.  I completely did it wrong.
<persia> Thanks for helping me to discover this.
<persia> So, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation is basically right, *EXCEPT*
<persia> We have separated granting a team for upload rights from granting a team the authority to manage their own membership.
<persia> So, for example, the Server Team has upload rights to the Server packageset, but doesn't have admin rights over the Server-Developer team.
 * persia adds sorting this out to the TODO list
<persia> Just to make sure, the important thing to you currently is making sure that folk actively working on Ubuntu Studio can upload our packages, right?  You don't much care about coordinating team membership, etc.?
<ScottL> persia, i care about making ubuntu studio better, if this overlaps into coordination of team membership then i will gladly accept any responsibilities as needed
<ScottL> however, my primary concern is as you said...making sure those working on ubuntu studio can upload
<ScottL> my understanding from the what i have read is that we would need to get the team approved first with our package set
<ScottL> my presumption is that you, luke, and alessio would be among those in the group primarily
<persia> I never meant to imply you were one to shirk responsibility: everything I have seen from you indicates precisely the opposite :)
<ScottL> although unnecesarily as it is
<ScottL> sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were implying that ;)
<persia> Right, getting the team approved is the first step, and your imagination of the set of initial developers matches mine.
<ScottL> after the team is approved, which can be sought immediate almost
<ScottL> then i would focus on getting myself and whoever else is needed approved into the team
<ScottL> or approved for rights to upload
<ScottL> to get the team approved i expect that we need to:
<ScottL> 1. add wiki page to explain how to become a "developer" for ubuntu studio, what we expect, etc
<persia> Don't worry about that stuff for now.
 * persia looks up an example
<ScottL> oh, okay
<ScottL> i found several on friday from the archives that you suggested
<ScottL> but further examples are also welcome :)
 * ScottL is going outside to mow for a bit, i'll check in when i need a drink
<persia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2010-July/000090.html is the application for the server team (like us, they already had a packageset)
<persia> So the main thing to do is make sure we know which is the right team in LP, and make sure it has the right membership (including core-dev as an indirect member), and isn't subscribed to any bugs.
<ScottL> hmmm, i would presume that ubuntustudio-dev would be the proper team
<persia> Quite possibly, although I'm not sure the current membership is right.
<ScottL> i would not expect adding core-dev as an indirect memeber to pose problems
<ScottL> are you intimating that we should prune some membership?
<ScottL> i have no idea if ubuntustudio-dev is assigned to bug, but it would be easy enough to check
 * persia is digging on LP, and won't have any firm opinions until that is complete :)
<ScottL> lol, rock on man
<persia> So, in terms of membership, we've a bundle of folk in ubuntustudio-dev.  Some already have upload rights, many do not.
<persia> I'm not sure of the social benefit in ejecting those folk: many of them have done or are doing good work.
<persia> The team is also subscribed to a bunch of packages, and probably N individual bugs.
<ScottL> perhaps a new team?
<ScottL> that seems somewhat redundant
<persia> That's what I'm thinking.
<persia> Well, let's think about what are the right teams to have in LP.
<persia> If you have a good model, then maybe there is no social penalty in clearing out the membership of ubuntustudio-dev.
<persia> Currently we have a few: "Ubuntu Studio", "Ubuntu Studio Nightly", "Ubuntu Studio Testers", "Ubuntu Studio-dev", etc.
<persia> Yeah, given the messof teams in LP, I think the order of action is 1) clean up the LP teams to have sensible purposes, and appropriate everything.
<persia> 2) move folks between teams as appropriate to match the new model (maybe also trying to contact the members and make sure they are still interested)
<persia> 3) Ask for the developer team to have upload rights
<persia> 4) Add people back to the developer team as appropriate
<ScottL> i'm not sure the purpose of "Ubuntu Studio" and i don't think "Ubuntu Studio Testers" is fulfilling it's purpose
<ScottL> er
<ScottL> s/Ubuntu Studio Testers is/Ubuntu 
<ScottL> s/Ubuntu Studio Testers is/Ubuntu Studio Testers is NOT
<persia> Heh.  Yeah, it gets confusing and murky.  Moreso when you start looking at the PPAs and bzr trees.
<ScottL> i would expect that "Ubuntu Studio-dev" owns the bzr branches that are mirrored for the archives, is this an accurate statement?
<persia> From the limited digging I just did, it appears that Ubuntu Studio-dev owns the seeds, and owns the branches from which uploads happen (which aren't the branches that are mirrored from the archives)
<ScottL> from or for?
<ScottL> i guessed that the brances that are owned by ubuntustudio-dev are mirrored and owned by "Ubuntu"
<persia> From
<persia> It's *much* more complicated than that.
<ScottL> these "Ubuntu" mirrors are used for the archives
<ScottL> LOL
<ScottL> okay
<persia> LP is currently telling me "Peer failed to perform TLS handshake", so I can't look up the details, but here's a rought description (you can get the details from LP, if you can connect)
<ScottL> much is, it seems...complicated, that is
<persia> ~ubuntustudio-dev has branches for some of the Ubuntu Studio specific packages.
<persia> Sometimes people take snapshots of those branches and upload the results to the archive.
<persia> The uploaded package is then processed by the branch-importer, which generates e.g. lp:ubuntu/natty/ubuntustudio-meta
<persia> (note that this may have identical content to lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustududio-meta but the branch histories differ, and the branches are incompatible)
<ScottL> i wonder what ubuntu studio specific packages are NOT owned by ubuntustudio-dev
<ScottL> i realize that -nightly builds some, but i wouldn't necessarily call these "ubuntu studio specific"
<ScottL> checking under "ubuntustudio-dev" code, it reminds me that we need to check on the hal dependency in ubuntustudio-seeds
<persia> All the stuff we ship from Debian-Multimedia
<ScottL> that is "ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric"
<ScottL> okay, that makes sense since we _are_ talking about acquiring upload rights....sorry i'm a bit slow
<ScottL> looking at xubuntu, they have the following teams:  xubuntu, xubuntu-dev, xubuntu-users, xubuntu-testers, xubuntu-artwork, and xubuntu-daily builds as far as i can tell
<persia> No worries.  I've been thinking about these things for the past 3 years or so, so I'm \\ve a bit of an advantage.
<ScottL> and i plan to use some of the xubuntu-testers documentation for us :)
<ScottL> heh
<ScottL> if we had a clear plan for new teams with distinct purposes, it would be easier in some ways to remove everybody from all teams and start over :/
<ScottL> in some way it obviously wouldn't
<ScottL> s/way/ways
<ScottL> and i'm not sure which differences are intended between https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio and https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio
<ScottL> oi vey, and now i find https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-project
<ScottL> these are beginning to look like a bunch of random launchpad groups that people put together because they could
<persia> I believe each had a purpose at the time it was created.
<persia> I'm not sure there was an overarching vision, or that everyone creating the teams was aware of all the others at the time of creation.
<ScottL> i think this creates a nightmare, however, for users who wish to assign bugs as accurately as possible
<persia> Ah, yes.  So the current ubuntustudio packageset (or something like what it ought be) is listed at http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/packagesets
<persia> Generally in Ubuntu we discourage users from assigning bugs.
<persia> The idea being that people who are motivated to do things (as volunteers, because of their jobs, for other reasons) will be able to select the things they want to do, and do them.
<persia> Users fiddling with people's TODO lists just makes people not want to look at those TODO lists.
<ScottL> oh, several of those packages in cjwatson's packageset are not in the archives
<ScottL> our seeds are badly out of date in regards to the language packs
<ScottL> my plan was to weed them out this cycle
<ScottL> i had considered it last cycle but didn't for various reasons
<ScottL> hmmm, dos2unix, interesting
<persia> Really, my goal here *isn't* to make your TODO list grow :)
<ScottL> lol, the language packs are something that bothers me because it shows up quite prominately in the build logs
<ScottL> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/natty/daily-20101109.log
<ScottL> that shows seventy-five to one hundred "unknown ship package"s
<persia> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/natty/daily-20110426.1.log is more interestingly annoying, as it reflects the Natty release image.
<persia> (but annoying for precisely the same reasons)
<ScottL> persia, would it be beneficial to explore each "ubuntu studio-*" in launchpad and see what code is under each?
<persia> And which members, and what bugs, and what package subscriptions, etc.
<ScottL> that could be done
<persia> The more you know about the situation, the better your chances of making it make sense.
<persia> We also have the "Ubuntu Studio" project.  I've never really understood the value of that: it seems ot just complicate bug reports.
<ScottL> i dislike disorganization and i would like to find rectify it
<ScottL> aye, it does seem so
<ScottL> i'm going to shower after mowing and hopefully before wife/kids get home from grocery store so i can help bring in groceries
<ScottL> be back in a few
<persia> So, `grep "Unknown.*package" daily-20110426.1.log | wc -l` returns "840", as a measure of just how out-of-date our seeds have become.
<persia> Comparatively, there are "only" 89 Unknown dependencies or recommendations to the packages that we do ship.
<ScottL> i would like to try to attend the xubuntu team meeting to see how we (i) can improve our meetings
<ScottL> i notice that the "ubuntu studio project" has numerous other projects under it...e.g. ubuntustudio-artwork, ubuntustudio-look
<ScottL> some of these project are either empty or appear to have old code
<ScottL> i think i'll have to create an organization chart in inkscape during the week
<Kokito> howdy
<persia> hey Kokito 
<Kokito> re
<scott-work> persia: are you around for a question regarding the various teams and projects for ubuntu studio?
<scott-work> i believe it to be a simple question
<persia> If my nick is in the channel, just ask.  If I'm not around, I'll answer when I get back.  If you didn't see an answer for a long time, bug me, and I'll repeat myself.
<persia> (if my nick isn't in the channel, something annoying is happening, and I'll return when I can.  In practice, this should happen rarely)
<scott-work> right, if a branch starts with "~ubuntustudio-dev", e.g. lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-menu, then ubuntustudio-dev owns that branch, correct?
<persia> Yes
<scott-work> it would appear that all code lies with ubuntustudio-dev other than a discreet few
<scott-work> i have been brainstorming why creating projects or teams within launchpad would be beneficial or of use, i can see:
<scott-work> 1. hosting code
<scott-work> 2. bug reporting
<scott-work> 3. controlling access to code
<scott-work> i believe i thought of a fourth reason but i can not remember it now
<scott-work> oh, 4. communication, i.e. mailing lists
<scott-work> given these reasons then, i think the number of projects and teams could be greatly reduced
<scott-work> but there are other problems within the logistics of reducing the number of projects/teams
<scott-work> possibly problems exists, right now they are concerns
<scott-work> for example, if we deprecated a project which owns code, how do we transfer ownership to a different/new project or team
<persia> So,. 2) isn't interesting within an Ubuntu Studio context, because it's easier for us to just use the Ubuntu infrastructure, and this result is less confusing to users.
<persia> 2) is *very* interesting for software projects, which projects we'd then package and include.
<scott-work> and ubuntu studio owns and maintains various (although limited) softwares
<persia> So, if we wanted separation between the folks that were doing hard-core work on some piece (e.g. ubuntustudio-controls), and the folk that were preparing uploads into Ubuntu Studio, it makes sense to have a project for ubunstudio-controls.
<scott-work> it does, to a degree
<persia> (although in this case, I would argue that someone ought to come up with a better name, and build something that was generally useful for several media-generation focused distributions)
<scott-work> but do we want projects for each software project under ubuntu studio?
<scott-work> and each project have it's own upload rights?  do we really need that fine granularity?
<persia> This is separate.
 * scott-work is rereading then
<persia> So, let's take ladish as an example.
<scott-work> okay
<persia> There's a ladish project.  That has several developers.  They do cool things.  Once in a while, they say "This code is usable in this state" and tell everyone.
<persia> Then the distributions (that's us) take that code, package it, and include it.
 * scott-work admits than he keeps thinking in terms of ubuntustudio-* packages
<persia> So, if there are projects that are interesting externally, then it makes sense to have separate projects (and we should encourage less focused names).
<persia> if there are projects that make no sense externally, then it doesn't make sense to have separate projects in LP.
<persia> Now, LP hosts code by people and teams.
<persia> The official code in Ubuntu Studio is always available at lp:ubuntu/packagename or by downloading the source packages.
<persia> Anyone can get it either way.  If they branch from bzr, they can push to lp:~${USERNAME}/ubuntu/${PACKAGENAME}/${BRANCHNAME} with candidate code.
<scott-work> side point: can someone (core-dev?) upload to lp:ubuntu/packagename for lp:~ubuntustudio-dev packages?
<persia> If they download packages, they can prepare more traditional patches.
<persia> If we have a packageset team, anyone in the team can upload.  Having core-dev as a member is a requiremnt.
<persia> There's also a bug in LP right now that means that for many of our packages, MOTU can upload, but that's temporary, and they are encouraged to either join our team or refrain from uploading those packages.
<scott-work> interesting
<persia> So, I don't think we need to worry about teams or projects in terms of hosting code.
<persia> Or in terms of bug reporting.
<persia> *Except* if we determine that some piece of software that is only in Ubuntu Studio currently is more generally useful, in which case it should be spawned off into it's own project.
<persia> So, moving on:
<scott-work> does this mean that those with upload rights will be able to push to lp:ubuntu/packagename ?  including, say, ubuntustudio-controls ?
<persia> Yes.
<scott-work> oooh, it is complicated
<persia> Or upload the package, in which case the package importer will automatically commit the changes to lp:ubuntu/packagename
<scott-work> well, that leaves #3 and #4
<persia> So, moving on with your list: I don't think 3) means anything.
<persia> Either you mean restricting access in some way, which we don't do (plus we're using distributed version control), so there's no help.
<scott-work> and #4 is arguably not a great reason for neither a project nor a team in launchpad context
<persia> Or you mean restricting who can commit, in which case I wonder if there is a use case for having the set of committers be different than the set of uploaders.
<scott-work> i meant #3 in terms of pushing to the branch
<scott-work> and uploading
<persia> Ah, yes, then there's a case for one team: the upload rights team.
<persia> Mind you, teams can also have social value: people may feel they belong more if they are invited to be on a team.
<scott-work> since people can lp:~${USERNAME}/ubuntu/${PACKAGENAME}/${BRANCHNAME} i am less worried about committing than i am about uploading
<persia> (for example, there's a team on LP "CJK Testers", which consists of people who have Chinese, Japanese, or Korean locales available.  This team grants no privileges, but sometimes it gets subscribed to bugs that need someone with the right environment to reproduce/triage/etc.)
<scott-work> persia: that social aspect intrigues me and vexes me
<scott-work> but i feel that it should be checked by purpose
<persia> Ubuntu Studio Testers could function in the same way: ask Bug Squad to subscribe the team when a bug is found that needs a complex studio setup to reproduce, etc.
<persia> Yeah.  You need to have a reason, but the reason need not be technical.
<scott-work> i almost said value because there is a purpose but it is not happening
 * scott-work thinks that -testers is an example of this
<persia> Teams sometimes subside, and need a kick.
 * scott-work sighs, i'm only a supervisor but i seem to have to help my department's managers see the bigger picture sometimes :/
<scott-work> at work, that is
<persia> Some people are big-picture people.  Some people are little-picture people.  It takes both.
<scott-work> its also appears that "the ubuntu studio project" became an umbrella "project group" under which several ubuntu studio projects are attached
<persia> Oh, regarding 4) we have a couple mailing lists on lists.ubuntu.com : the question to ask is "Do we need more?".
<persia> That's someone getting fancy with launchpad.
<scott-work> i agree
<scott-work> re: #4, i don't think so but i think perhaps -dev might be repurposed slightly 
<scott-work> well that's not correct
<scott-work> perhaps additional purposes
<persia> And as much as I probably know, like, and respect the person who did it (there are only so many candidates after all), I believe that doing it that way creates false separation from the Ubuntu Project, and makes it harder for us to work as part of the larger umbrella.
<scott-work> my concern is that the team is small with limited purposes and i do not believe we need this many teams 
<scott-work> if the team was orders of magnitudes larger with associated increase in active and frenzied development then i could understand a larger organizational system
<scott-work> oh, and i agree with big-picture and little-picture people, but at times i am taken aback how much guidance and shaping i do for our department and division that i feel that others should be doing
<scott-work> *shrug* but it is what it is and our department/division keeps improving which is what i think is most important
<scott-work> persia: so basically you dismantled all my reasons for teams/projects within launchpad and only added social concerns :P
<scott-work> given those constraints it certainly appears that we don't need many teams/projects then
<persia> I believe social concerns are generally the overriding concerns.  If the social bits are right, everyone can work together to solve everything else.  If the social bits are wrong, this will never happen.
<scott-work> but with the inclusion of an "upload rights team"
<persia> To a large degree, that's a social bit: "These are the people who we trust to be the final reviewers of the seeds and packaging: anyone is welcome to join: just build the trust".
<scott-work> then i would also suggest that we rebrand the -devel group into "ubuntu studio contributor group"
<persia> Could do.
<scott-work> this group would not have commit or upload rights directly then
<scott-work> once trust is built, then they move into "upload rights team"
<persia> Just a social group that people can join if they are doing stuff, as a stepping stone to being on the upload team?
<scott-work> we can keep "ubuntu studio users" group
<persia> Users is an important group: that's where the bulk of the support staff is developed.
<scott-work> i think the "contributor" team is important even if a person has no upward ambitions for the upload team
<scott-work> for documentation or art or testing
<scott-work> but yes, the ideal path would be to use the "contributor" group as a stepping stone for those with larger designs
<scott-work> but we know that there is always turnover and also new members that should keep the "contributor" group populated and necessary
<scott-work> i think a lack of definition, documentation, and publishing hurts increasing the ubuntu studio contributor ranks
<persia> And we could make a concerted effort to help anyone in the contributor team who isn't already become an Ubuntu Member.
<scott-work> i don't think we have the procedure for inclusion defined, i haven't seen it documentated, and i don't beleive we have make people aware of the possiblity
<scott-work> very true (i'm pushing holstein right now)  ;)
<persia> For most of the teams I've been involved with, inclusion was a matter of announcing intent, showing up at a meeting to receive accolades (or criticism and encouragement for next time).  A friendly tribal initiation.
<scott-work> i think clearly identifying who CAN become a contributor and what is expected (from both parties) will encourage people to join also
<scott-work> the method you mentioned was how i became involved with ubuntu studio, but it is a hard path in some ways
<scott-work> a person must be a highly motivated person to navigate to proper inclusion into the team
<scott-work> properly defining the path would lower the threshold
<persia> Right.  The surroundings to the procedure need to be clear.
<persia> 1) All are welcome: this is how to start to get involved.
<persia> 2) This is the procedure to be accepted: it's not hard, just do stuff listed in #1
<persia> 3) Being accepted brings an expectation that you're going to help those who aren't yet go through the process.
 * scott-work is to be interviewed by Linux Outlaws tomorrow morning at 6:00 am about the XFCE change
<persia> Cool!
<persia> Be nice to unity: it's just not for us.
<persia> (just because there's already too much wild discussions about unity vs. gnome shell, and I don't think this decision has anything to do with that, but rather with the requirements for higher processing for desktop effects)
<scott-work> i completely agree
<scott-work> i'm completely amazed by how much internet press i found regarding this issue, i.e. ubuntu studio choosing xfce, and how they choose to spin it
<scott-work> (at least how i percieved they spun it)
<persia> Yeah.  It'll be good to be able to set the record straight.
<scott-work> we aren't thumbing our noses at canonical/ubuntu/unity, our response would have been the same most likely if ubuntu went with gnome3
<persia> Yes, computers are getting faster.  Yes, folk have GPUs.  Still, when folk are trying to extract every last bit of performance out of their hardware to achieve some special audio effect, or render some animation, there is no space for fancy wiggly window animation.
<scott-work> i find the needs between a musician compared to a desktop/laptop user are different
<scott-work> at it's most base, i do not think that a typical desktop/laptop user will want to have 10+ windows open and need to manage them
<scott-work> well, not actively at least
<astraljava> You're right about that. They use only one at the time. Two at most.
<persia> Well, lots of folk do that, but they usually only need to see 2-3 at the same time.
<scott-work> hi astraljava 
<astraljava> Howdy.
<persia> Yeah, one is common.  2-3 is heavy workload.
<scott-work> i was going to posit that a typical user would actively use and manage five windows or less at any given point
<scott-work> and five may be gratious
<persia> Whereas for JACK, one has 4-5 *important* windows open before one even starts with tone generators, effects, etc.
<scott-work> absolutely, it could be upwards toward 20 possibly
<persia> 5 is probably too high, but let's give them credit.  it also nicely matches the minimum you need just to use qsynth to generate some tones.
<scott-work> but i would say that a musician could easily have well over 10 windows open
<scott-work> and i feel that neither gnome3 nor unity were designed for such management
<scott-work> that doesn't make them bad of course, they serve the general populace's needs quite nicely
<persia> Indeed.  They are focused on a completely different category of user.
<scott-work> and that is the focus of my explanation tomorrow
<persia> That sounds like a good story.
<scott-work> i feel that canonical and ubuntu are doing something quite remarkable and noteworthy at this moment
<scott-work> unity is giving gnome 3 competition....which is good i think, it should foster development
<scott-work> but futhermore, the move to wayland and away from x.org is remarkable as well
<scott-work> canonical is investing in the future with wayland...this will be BIG later on
<persia> We'll see: there's a lot of stuff that wayland breaks that needs investigation.
<holstein> scott-work: im going to make that happen this summer
<scott-work> that is to be expected naturally
<holstein> *membership
<scott-work> holstein: outstanding!
<persia> About time!
<holstein> persia: :)
<holstein> as long as my ubuntustudio work can get me membership
<scott-work> but moving away from x.org's code base with what has been described as large amounts of legacy code is a good thing i believe
<scott-work> holstein: it worked for me
<scott-work> :)
<holstein> the rest of my contributions i might need to let go
<holstein> but, unless i just get crasy busy, i plan to always do what i can with ubuntustudio
<persia> holstein, Nobody cares how you contribute to Ubuntu, just that you do, and that you keep doing so, and that your work is important (all of which I believe to be true)
<holstein> and, i think thats enough to warrant membership*
<holstein> persia: cool
<scott-work> persia: if we redo the teams/projects i would like to clearly list the purpose of the team and link how to join...and possibly other things that i can't define currently :P
<persia> scott-work, That sounds like a good plan.
<holstein> lunchtime... BBL
<scott-work> clearly list the purpose and link on the project/team page in the description
<persia> I agre that it's probably not worth rearranging everything until there is a plan, and docs (and you have rough consensus)
<scott-work> however, we could implement the upload rights team without breaking anything i believe
<scott-work> persia: do you know what is involved in removing a team/project from launchpad or deactivating it?
<scott-work> persia: what about moving ownership of code or branches?
<scott-work> is the concensus to be sought on the ubuntu studio mailing lists only?
<persia> Moving ownership of branches is hard: easier to handle it semantically: branch the old location and push to the new location, and tell everyone the new location is correct and the old location is not.
<persia> removing teams and projects requires that the team/project owner talk to the launchpad crew.  I think it's a question, but ask in #launchpad to be sure.
<persia> As the project lead, you get to choose the polity.  I'd recommend including at least all the opinion leaders active in Ubuntu Studio, and probably most of the more active folk.  You may find the mailing lists a handy way to reach them, or not (you'd know better than I).
<persia> The key bit is that if someone is doing good stuff for Ubuntu Studio, you don't want them to feel rejected, or feel like they were excluded from the decision.
<persia> They may not agree with all the details, but you want to make certain they agree with the way the final solution was reached.
<scott-work> if we can clearly frame the discussion in the end goals and the benefits expected then hopefully the details will become of less concern to many, if not most
<persia> Sure.
<scott-work> hmmm, no answer yet in #launchpad although i will continue to solicit an answer
<persia> Australia or Europe day is better timing
<scott-work> ah, excellent suggestion
<scott-work> i'll try again tonight at home and then early in the morning 
<scott-work> persia: i have an answer:  [13:55] <maxb> scott-work: Teams can be deleted outright. Projects cannot be deleted, but can be deactivated, which hides them from most people. Either way, a request into https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+addquestion is the way to go - preferably from the person who owns the item in question (or member of the owning team)
<persia> Excellent.
 * ckontros expected alot more from the artwork brainstorm/discussion thread by now. :(
<ScottL> ckontros, i just realized that it was there 30 minutes ago as i left for home
<ScottL> i'm going to respond shortly
 * astraljava is not very graphical guy, so doesn't really have an opinion
<astraljava> I notice when things look good, but can't really tell where to enhance them if they don't
<ckontros> ScottL: Gotcha. Wasn't really thinking of you. ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-24
<ckontros> ScottL: I'm slowly but surely figuring out how to set things in XFCE. (hacking on xubuntu-settings) I hope to upload something in two weekends.
<ckontros> PM if ya need me.
<ScottL> another strange lockup :|
<Kokito> howdy
<holstein> jerry_l: o/
<holstein> hey Kokito 
<jerry_l> hello room i have to go to bed. sorry...
<Kokito> good night jerry_l 
<Kokito> hi holstein 
<Kokito> will not be here long. they are about to kick me out of the the coffee shop :)
 * holstein checking in on the mailing list
<holstein> Kokito: lots of activity
<holstein> i think thats good
<Kokito> yep
<Kokito> I'm liking it
<Kokito> gotta go
<Kokito> ciao!
<holstein> Kokito: laterx
<ScottL> just got done with the linux outlaws interview...i *think* it went well, didn't focus too much on unity which is good
<astraljava> ScottL: Well done! :)
<scott-work> hi Kokito :)
<scott-work> i answered one of those emails and included your questions on the timeline wiki
<Kokito> good morning scott-work 
<Kokito> yes, thank you!
<scott-work> Kokito: you are east coast US, correct?
<Kokito> scott-work: I am in CA
<scott-work> Kokito: i should have answered before, but there is so much going on that it's easy to move onto something new before completing the current task and then forget about it
<scott-work> Kokito: so it really is morning for you :)
<Kokito> no worries about the timing of the reply
<Kokito> and, yes, it's morning here :)
<scott-work> Kokito: the "blob" i was talking about was the banner being used for the new website
<scott-work> do you have a link to your demo again...i'll look on the mailing list for it
<Kokito> scott-work: the banner being the header where the logo is?
<Kokito> http://myhaiku.org
<scott-work> aye, all the orange, blue stuff up there
<scott-work> granted, that does look MUCH better than the other stuff that we used to have
<Kokito> that is very likely to change, but I want to see how the desktop theme turns out before I can tell to see if it will
<Kokito> either way, I have a hard time visualizing a granite backgorund there
<scott-work> Kokito: but i was wondering if we replaced "ubuntu studio    linux for digital creaters" and the image with a grey or green stone background with "ubuntu studio" etched into it, how it would look
<scott-work> like the last image  http://imageshack.us/m/683/6924/ubuntustudiowallpaperdr.jpg
<Kokito> the etching would look nice, but I don' think a stone surface would fit (regardless of the color)
<scott-work> but with the words "ubuntu studio" etched into the stone
<scott-work> maybe not "stone" but slate looking
<Kokito> ok, I see wnat you mean now :)
<Kokito> yeah, that's a possibility
<Kokito> although I wanted to keep the existing dotted grid, as a way to subtly align with the Ubuntu official theme
<Kokito> but this is something we can try
<Kokito> I would like to wait for Izo's mockups before I make any moves, though
<Kokito> bbl
<scott-work> oh yeah, defintely wait...i was just throwing out an idea and hopefully it sparks someone else to make a brilliant suggestion or concept
 * scott-work doesn't usually have brilliant ideas
 * astraljava thinks scott-work has a sense of sarcasm at the very least...
<scott-work> astraljava: lol, i do employ sarcasm from time to time
<scott-work> holstein: you made a wiki page a few weeks ago, something that had /ubuntustudio/oneiric/*  as the link, do you remember what it was?
<scott-work> i wanted to duplicate this structure and move some information using it
<scott-work> someone had a good idea, i wonder if we couldn't disable pulse audio with a postinstall file
<astraljava> scott-work: In general, there's pretty much anything that you can do in a postinstall file, as it's a script that is being run in root privileges. I guess the question is whether QA lets it slip past. But that's politics, then, and you'll do fine in that area. :D
<scott-work> astraljava: i'm less worried about QA than i am about logistics and functionality
<scott-work> i'll explain that a bit
<scott-work> if you mean QA as in Ubuntu QA, then, yes, I am less worried about that because the changes we make will only affect our users and not the general user base for Ubuntu
<scott-work> but if we did stop pulse audio we still need to make sure everything else works
<scott-work> and some stuff might not...like skype which is currently built with only pulse audio support, you can't select jack like you used to
<holstein> scott-work: im pretty sure is was https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline/
<scott-work> heh, i think you are right and i already knew about it :P
<holstein> i started it, and you made it really nice with the table and all that
<holstein> i remember throwing a couple of options out though at the time
<scott-work> i'm not feeling well and going home now :/
<astraljava> ScottL: My referring to QA was mostly the Power That Be, who review these sort of things. I'm fairly confident we can't cover all the scenarios with one script, which leads to finding out as many as possible during testing, and then documenting the failing ones in release notes or some tech docs, so that users _who read those_ won't be baffled.
<astraljava> ScottL: Of course that means like 6% of the installers, so we'll have a lot of explaining to do if we release with such settings. But then that's what wiki is for, right?
<astraljava> ;)
<astraljava> ScottL: Also, hope you feel better soon!
<saidinesh5> hmm........ finally got Ubuntu Studio (read: what use is the "College Work" partition after graduating....)
<astraljava> I don't know... nostalgia?
<saidinesh5> well i really can't notice (m)any changes from what i ve tried 2-3 years ago
<saidinesh5> didn't the apps or anything change at all?
<astraljava> I think most of the progress happens under the hood. But shouldn't ardour at least have progressed muchly?
<astraljava> Visually, not much has changed.
<saidinesh5> also i noticed that there is no real time kernel this time
<astraljava> The theme is pretty much the same.
<saidinesh5> back when i tried it, i remember screwing things up after installing nvidia drivers
<astraljava> saidinesh5: That's because the -rt patchset isn't being implemented on all kernel revisions.
<saidinesh5> ah that reminds me, compiz isn't working for me :-/
<astraljava> I can't imagine you wanting to use compiz anyway for recording or the like.
<astraljava> Why waste any cycles for that?
<saidinesh5> astraljava: lol have been coming from KDE... but compiz anyway taxes the GPU, which would otherwise be sitting idle
<saidinesh5> also if compiz is running it kinda gives the "Ah well i have the graphics card working too" feel :P
<saidinesh5> but ya, my first over all impression is the thing is screaming for lots of polishing....... at least with the apps and there definitely is a need for a better launcher...
<saidinesh5> is there some road map or soemthing 
<saidinesh5> which would help me pick where to contribute?
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Okay, cycles was a wrong term. Eating more resources woulda been better, but granted, at the moment I'm not very well educated how much more it would take.
<astraljava> But in some cases, everything matters.
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Currently I'm not so sure about this just started devel cycle. I believe the guys had one meeting in April, but nothing during May.
<astraljava> I'd suggest sticking on the channel for staying up-to-date.
<persia> astraljava, My concern is that it's really hard to distinguish Ubuntu Studio users from users of other flavours on a running system, for cases like "Upgrade from Vanilla".
<saidinesh5> oh sorry was away (had to bid goodbye to friends)
<saidinesh5> persia: ++
 * ckontros waves
<persia> evening ckontros
<ckontros> Hi Emmet. It's been a bit. I was wondering if you felt any impact from all the quake/tsunami/reactor mess?
<persia> Oh, heaps, although it's over now.  Although my house was a wreck, nobody was hurt, and there wasn't that much damage (and no structural damage).
<persia> The most amusing bit about the reactor mess is that when I went to UDS everyone wondered how I could live with all the radiation, and were a bit shocked when I told them that the radiation they were experiencing at UDS was higher than that in Tokyo at the time.
<ckontros> Oh wow. Sorry to hear. But good that it's over now. I have family in Okinawa but they are way far away from where things happened I gather.
<persia> Oh, yeah, Okinawa is very far away.
<ckontros> hahaha. :) We've had alot of news here 'bout how it compared to Chernobyl.
<ckontros> Was another today about how the radiation is worse than thought since the rods melted.
<persia> No comparison.  When you put a reactor in several layers of shields, you have a chance.  When you put it in a pit in the ground, you have a problem waiting to happen.
<ckontros> Gotcha
<persia> Yeah, radiation inside the shielding is way worse than expected, making it hard to deal with recovery.  Radiation levels outside the plant are well known, and (aside from very close), less than the background radiation in many cities around the globe.
<ckontros> With the Chernobyl stories, they've talked again about what actually happens there. Its actually pretty neat. There's a wide zone that closed off but there's still folks that live inside it. Not at ground zero but still live with a higher level of rads that normal. Totally on their own. Was pretty cool.
<persia> Yeah.  The stories from the Chernobyl exclusion zone are fairly interesting.
<persia> It's not precisely "safe", but it's one of the few frontiers available these days.
<ckontros> ScottL: We gotta talk about the seed work. As per the latest Xubuntu meeting they will not be using GTK3. I'd like you to get a bit involved with them. It would only make our efforts stronger.
<ckontros> persia: Was also pretty neat what the rads are doing to nature.
<ckontros> Weird trees. Odd birds. Freaky. :)
<persia> Oh, very much so.  All kinds of oddities.  Did you see the picture set from the woman who did the biking tour a few years ago?
<ckontros> persia: Oh yeah. That was great. I have that bookmarked somewhere.
 * saidinesh5 waves back to ckontros
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-25
 * ScottL is reading backscroll
<ScottL> ckontros, i checked in on the meeting as it happened and yes, i have some seed work that i would like to do to also clean up some things
<ScottL> ckontros, how would you like for me to be involved? 
<ScottL> ckontros, not trying to obfuscate, but i just want to understand the expectations
<ScottL> :)
 * saidinesh5 waves at ScottL from his Ubuntu Studio :P
<ScottL> lol, hi saidinesh5 
<saidinesh5> good mornin? :)
<saidinesh5> ScottL: its the same thing as when i tried it a couple of years ago..
 * persia idly wonders why consistency is no longer widely considered a positive attribute
<saidinesh5> persia: it isnt??
<saidinesh5> :O
<persia> Oh, you mean that in a good way?  Sorry.  I'm oversensitive I suppose.
<saidinesh5> i thought consistency is like at the core of any good design
<saidinesh5> ScottL: btw. doesn't ubuntu studio bundle compiz by default ? or is it my NVIDIA drivers?
 * saidinesh5 might not have "I m a designer guy"  written on his head though
<persia> saidinesh5: consistency over elements is not always considered in the same was as consistency over time, but we digress :)
<saidinesh5> Ah okay!!
<saidinesh5> well back then it was a hugeee disappointment for me
 * saidinesh5 was totally new to linux back then though
<saidinesh5> so i was expecting different things i guess
<ckontros> ScottL: No. I don't need to be involved now. I do however want to look at the *-desktop depends for the Xubuntu conversion at some point and rearrange things. I think Il be further on our new *-settings package this weekend.
<ScottL> saidinesh5, i think you will find the next release will be quite different, but in a good way
<saidinesh5> naice ScottL :D
<saidinesh5> also i was wondering where could i find some roadmap or something if i can contribute to anything
<persia> saidinesh5, Well, what sort of thing do you like to do?
<saidinesh5> dunno persia.. will look at what can be done 
<saidinesh5> and then will decide
<saidinesh5> m fair enough with writing code .... like can use Qt to make little apps that do what i want them to do
<persia> Well, some areas that always benefit from people: reviewing/replicating/investigating bugs, documenting how to accomplish common tasks with the default software selections, improving integration support between applications in the default software selection, regular testing and reporting of any discovered issues, (and lots more)
<persia> Well, if you're good at writing code, we've heaps of bugs that need fixing.  We generally coordinate with the Debian Multimedia team to get patches we prepare applied to the applications we select.
<persia> Just pick any application installed by default, visit https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/${PACKAGE}/+bugs
<saidinesh5> oh cool: looking into it
<persia> (note that in some cases the source package name differs from the binary package name: if `apt-cache show ${PACKAGE} | grep "^Source:" returns anything, use that instead of the binary package name
<saidinesh5> oh sure :)
<persia> quadrispro is often around in this channel, and is the primary person pushing patches into Debian Multimedia: once you have a couple, I'd recommend talking to him about the best way to get them applied.
<persia> Thanks!
<saidinesh5> sure :D
<saidinesh5> thank you :)
<scott-work> morning abogani 
<abogani> scott-work: Hi Scott!
<astraljava> o/
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<falktx> hey scott-work
<falktx> scott-work: I noticed what you said about the gtk-deco theme, but I don't have the skills to make it better
<falktx> I just modded the ubuntu theme...
<scott-work> falktx: you mean the dark on dark window treatment?
<falktx> scott-work: yes
<scott-work> holstein: i'm talking to skaet right now about website access :)
<scott-work> i got tired of trying to catch her on a channel and finally realized i could simply /query her :P
<holstein> scott-work: w00t
<holstein> yeah, i tried a /q once, but she wasnt on freenode at all
<Kokito> howdy
<Kokito> scott-work: you've got mail
<scott-work> hi Kokito
 * scott-work is looking
<astraljava> Hmm... I can't make out the difference between a query and a msg. Someone enlighten me?
<scott-work> query opens new window, what most people think of as PM
<scott-work> i think
<astraljava> Hmm... when in irssi, /msg also opens a new 'window'.
<holstein> astraljava: think of /msg as sending a message to the server
<holstein> like /msg nickserv or /msg chanserv
<holstein> you are asking for something from the sever via a message
<holstein>  /query gets you a PM with whatever nick
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-26
<astraljava> Every time I send a private message to someone on a channel I've joined on, I send it with /msg
<holstein> yeah, you can
<astraljava> Yeah, so visible to the user, the only difference in irssi's case is that /query takes you instantly to the newly-created private chat, whereas /msg sends the message, creates a new "window" but doesn't take you there.
<Kokito> howdy
<scott-work> persia: i noticed this debian RPF for jackpanel:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=602190
<ubottu> Debian bug 602190 in wnpp "RFP: jackpanel -- JACK control interface for the GNOME Desktop" [Wishlist,Open]
<scott-work> i mention this because we had discussed it earlier
<persia> scott-work, From the history there, it looks like quadrispro was going to upload it, but ran into some issue (maybe only time).  I'd suggest asking quadrispro: I expect it could get in with a bit of help (maybe just updating the packaging) if it still works, but I think it should be tested against XFCE beforehand, as it's not very interesting if there is no GNOME Panel.
<scott-work> it looked like to me there was a blocking bug for which libprolooks needed to be pacakged
<scott-work> i did just file a RFP bug for mudita24, which is an improved version of the envy24control package
<scott-work> Bug#628072
<scott-work> debian bug 628072
<ubottu> Debian bug 628072 in wnpp "RPF: mudita24 -- ALSA GUI control tool for Envy24 (ice1712) soundcards" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/628072
<scott-work> yay
<scott-work> debian 628072
<scott-work> bug 628072
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 628072 could not be found
<scott-work> heh
<scott-work> going home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-27
<TheMuso> debian bug 628072
<ubottu> Debian bug 628072 in wnpp "RPF: mudita24 -- ALSA GUI control tool for Envy24 (ice1712) soundcards" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/628072
<TheMuso> ScottL: ^^
<persia> TheMuso, You mean because RPF should be RFP, or that ScottL should have filed an ITP?
<TheMuso> persia: No, just showing ScottL how to ref debian bugs in channel to display them using the bot.
<persia> Ah!
<ScottL> lol, thanks TheMuso but i had got it already ;)
<ScottL> i was just playing with trying other methods
<ScottL> persia, lol, i'm a goof...it should have been RFP
<ailo> ScottL, Is there a git tree for 2.6.39 yet?
<ailo> ScottL, Or, how and when is it time to build the kernel for Oneiric?
<ailo> -lowlatency, that is
<ailo> ScottL, I just uploaded the -lowlatency for natty to my PPA. Remains to see if it will be built. Just following the instructions on your scratchpad.
<ailo__> ScottL, I have linux-lowlatency available at this PPA now: ppa:ailo.at/testing
<ailo__> Still waiting for linux-meta-lowlatency to appear though
<ailo__> It uploaded fine, but hasn't showed up yet. Perhaps that's normal
<abogani> scott-work: ping
<scott-work> hi abogani , good morning to you my friend!
<abogani> scott-work: good morning to you too!
<abogani> :-)
<abogani> scott-work: 1) Oneiric -lowlatency kernel is almost finished 2) Could yuo recall me where you have written the guide to build -lowlatency kernel.
<scott-work> abogani: oustanding!  persia would be really interesting in hearing this!
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender/scratchpad
<abogani> scott-work: By the way Do you remember when you have helped me about English on some my Linux kernel commits?
<scott-work> abogani: yes i do and would be happy to do so again :)
<abogani> I would want let you know that all commits are mainlined successfully. I hope that they pass "merge window". :-)
<abogani> scott-work:  So thank you for your help!
<abogani> .
<abogani> Lately I have received a lot of support requests about -realtime/-lowlatency kernels.
<abogani> I would want let you know that I'll don't provide that support anymore.
<abogani> Obviously the first reason is that I don't like still maintain that packages and I don't have enough spare time to work on Linux kernel and Ubuntu.
<abogani> s/that/those
<abogani> Moreover I'm very exhausted to help (or exhausted helping???)  people that don't return nothing back.
<abogani> I hope in your comprehension.
<abogani> Obviously people in this room is excluded. ;-)
<abogani> scott-work: Which tense should I use after "I'm very exhasuted"? Infinitive with to or ing form?
 * abogani often thinks to be very stupid....
<astraljava> abogani: "I'm exhausted" is correct. :)
<abogani> astraljava: Hei Janne!
<abogani> astraljava: How are you?
<scott-work> abogani: sorry, had someone at my desk, am reading backscroll now
<scott-work> abogani: you are very welcome for the help and congratulations!  that is extremely cool to get something into the mainline kernel!  outstanding :)
<scott-work> abogani: i understand about the -realtime/-lowlatency kernel and the responsiblity (or burden) of support
<abogani> scott-work: Next time i'll give you credits. ;)
<abogani> scott-work:  I'm wondering about "I'm very exhausted to help" or "I'm very exhausted helping" is the correct form
<scott-work> abogani:  i would probably say, "I am too exhausted to help people that do not return anything"
 * jussi eyes the channel...
<scott-work> abogani:  will you still be able to host your git repo for the -lowlatency kernel so that I can package and maintain it?
<scott-work> hi jussi 
<jussi> hi scott-work
<scott-work> i know that persia is keen to get the -lowlatency kernel into the repos (and i don't think he is waiting for UKT to do this :P )
<scott-work> speaking of this, TheMuso, were you able to talk to Andy at UDS about the kernel?
<abogani> scott-work: Of course I'll help in any way you think is necessary.
<abogani> scott-work: It is sufficient that you let me known ;)
<scott-work> abogani: perhaps later you can help me understand the process to create your git repo and i can relieve you of that responsibility as well :)
<abogani> scott-work: Don't worry indeed it is the next step ;)
<astraljava> abogani: Not very well, but hopefully getting better. How about you?
<abogani> astraljava: I'm fine.
<astraljava> abogani: Good to hear. :)
<astraljava> abogani: Sorry I couldn't do much on last cycle for kernel stuff. I was in the middle of the divorce, so in a very bad, dark place.
<abogani> astraljava: Take care of your life guy.
<astraljava> abogani: If you're still continuing that work, I'll try to act more actively on the testing part and stuff.
<astraljava> abogani: I will try. :)
<abogani> astraljava: Don't worry after all Studio is an open source effort. So I suppose that life takes precedence.
<abogani> astraljava: And you have already done a lot of work in previous release.
<astraljava> abogani: I wouldn't say a lot, but participated every once in a while. Looking forward to make my contributions more stable and predictable.
<astraljava> Okay, gotta take the dog for a walk. Talk to ya later!
<abogani> I'll wait for that. :-)
<abogani> Ok
<abogani> astraljava: Ciao
<astraljava> Ciao! :D
<abogani> Ok At https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/broken/+packages amd64 version of -lowlatency kernel is ready  (it isn't tested yet). 
<abogani> As you probably  know the -lowlatency kernel is threaded by default (where vanilla requires a specific kernel option at command line).
<scott-work> abogani: so the plan would be to test your build, then i pull from your git repo, package it, test it again, and persia upload it?
<abogani> Yes. Please consider that we have to wait the final version.
<abogani> of the kernel.
<abogani> I have also added a kernel option (which don't exist in vanilla kernel) "nothreadirqs" which force -lowlatency in normal no threaded mode.
<abogani> for testing purpose.
<abogani> The package force the installation of the rtirq-init package which it should be use to set up the right priorities.
<astraljava> Cool. I will do a Oneiric test install over the weekend, so I can test this.
<abogani> We should also have to  disable irqbalance...
<abogani> But it is very advance configuration.
<scott-work> hi charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Hello, scott-work 
<charlie-tca> just thought I should add this, since it makes it easier to see what's really happening
<scott-work> charlie-tca: add this channel to your client?
<scott-work> that sounds good
<charlie-tca> yeah, I did
<charlie-tca> Easier to find you here than in #ubuntustu
<charlie-tca> Easier to find you here than in #ubuntustudio
<scott-work> charlie-tca: when do you think you will have the new xfce packages (what, 4.8?) for your -settings package?
<scott-work> charlie-tca: oi, yes, that would be much better ;)
<charlie-tca> Hard to say, right now. I am hoping we get things synced for alpha1, but it might be a little later. I got to get with Lionel and see what his schedule is.
<scott-work> i ask about the xfce packages because cory wants to compare what you have to what we are doing
<scott-work> but we are also making quite drastic changes to UI as well
<charlie-tca> no problem
<charlie-tca> I will get to Lionel tonight if possilbe
<ScottL> hi ailo i didn't see your comment this morning
<ailo> ScottL, Seems like you covered that topic :)
<ailo> ScottL, Just messing with it a little bit. I'm going to work with packaging somewhat these coming weeks, is my plan
<ailo> Interesting about the latest kernel
<ailo> It will be fun to see how well it does
<ailo> I had a problem uploading the linux-meta-lowlatency package
<ailo> It uploaded, but is not appearing
<ailo> When preparing, debuild -S -sa failed because there was no control file
<ailo> So, I just very quickly copied the control.common and named it control
<ailo> Just shows you I need to learn about packaging
<ailo> ScottL, Were you able to upload the linux-meta-lowlatency, and did you need to do something other than described in your scratchpad?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-28
<ScottL> ailo, i was using a different kernel i believe at that time which was in the repos
<ScottL> so i was able to upload the -meta
<ailo> ScottL, I was doing this with the natty kernel
<ScottL> and i think i did everything just like it is described
<ailo> Then there must be a problem with the current source for 2.6.38
<ailo> ScottL, The fakeroot step is missing from the instructions for the meta package. 
<ailo> ScottL, I suppose the procedure could be identical for the two. I was following the text very much step by step, not caring about what each step did yet
<ailo> update the changelog, do the fakeroot thing, and then the debuild thing
<ailo> After that upload
<ailo> ScottL, New attempt. Seems to work. I'll delve deeper into this out of my own interest of course. Takes some time to read through all the specific setps
<ailo> steps*
<ailo> ScottL, a purdyne dev finally answered my mail
<ailo> puredyne*
<ailo> I suggested collaboration on testing/developing the kernel and having a common live image
<ailo> Having a common way of making the live image, I mean
<ailo> On XFCE, I cannot recommend anything, because at the moment US is about to be based on Xubuntu as I understand it, and puredyne has a much simpler setup
<ailo> Their aim is to have an OS that works on P3 256MB machines
<ailo> Or was..
<ailo> Also, I don't think they are interested in PA. 
<ailo> I'm really the wrong person to coordinate anything desktop-wise since that's not my area at all
<ScottL> that good that a dev answered your email
<ScottL> i don't think we can have a similar live image because we would be building them completely different probably
<ScottL> and eww, working on a p3 256 mb machine?   that's pretty damn low specs
<TheMuso> ScottL: No, whenever I tried to get Andy, he was busy, and then I ended up being called away to something else. :(
<ailo> ScottL, In any case, I would be interested to find out. Their live image is a very nice one. It's based on Debian stuff mostly.
<ailo> ScottL, They are interested in a testing script, so hopefully they can be of help testing and having opinions on the kernel at least
<ScottL> TheMuso, that is sad :(
<ScottL> ailo, a testing script would be pretty interesting
<TheMuso> ScottL: I'll email him next week, and ask him about it. I don't mind if he gives me turse instructions, I can make something out of them hoefully.
<TheMuso> Anyway, off for the rest of the day.
<holstein> should i say something to ralph?
<holstein> mention the iso testing pages again?
<holstein> i feel like he blasted out a 6 paragraph email about the look and feel of ubuntstudio 11.10 with XFCE
<Kokito> hello folks
<holstein> Kokito: damn
<holstein> cant make it tomorrow :/
<Kokito> no, sorry
<holstein> im not sure if i can, but im not really doing any UI work
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-29
<ckontros> ScottL: Yo. I guess there's really no need.
<holstein> ckontros: you talking about the meeting?
<holstein> i think everyone bailed out right?
<ckontros> Yeah. As per the list anyway.
<holstein> you cant get any good help these days ;)
<holstein> ckontros: i started that wiki page, and ScottL really hooked it up with a nice grid
<holstein> is there anything else like that i can be doing?
<ckontros> Well, it's par for the course really. People bail. Its live. :)
<ckontros> holstein: Not really. There's some technicals to get in place before others can jump in. Its really early. Dont sweet it. ;)
<holstein> cool, just let me know if theres any little busy work things like that i can help with
<holstein> im far from contributing code unfortunately
<ckontros> holstein: You running XFCE?
<holstein> ckontros: i plan to ASAP
<holstein> 11.10
<holstein> probably get the xubuntu 11.10 whenever it builds
<ckontros> Ok/ I should have a XFCE theme soon for folks to test.
<holstein> run it on something
<holstein> ckontros: sure, im looking forward to it
<holstein> the screenies you guys were tossing around look awesome
<astraljava> I concur, especially the one I responded to on the list.
<astraljava> Magnificent!
<ckontros> The one Izo posted isnt gonna happen. I dont wanna sound shitty, but I clearly posted what was going on. What I was gonna use. The desktop screenshot he posted was fine but isnt what we're gonna do. That why I wanted this meeting. To be clear on things.
<astraljava> ckontros: Yeah okay. I don't mind whatever individual thing is being selected. I'm just overall amazed at the level of awesomeness you guys can deliver. :)
<ckontros> Gotcha. Be sure that whatever we actually do ship will be just as awesome as previous releases. (even thought the past few haven't been refreshed.
<astraljava> I hear ya.
<ckontros> PM if needed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-21
<ailo> len-dt: But which of those things made the operation stable? Was it only removing ath9k, or all of them combined
<ailo> We'll need test systematically, and document everything on the wiki later. Put up numbers, and maybe write some notes.
<ailo> And to increase resolution, we should probably adjust frames/buffer as well
<ailo> Between 2 and 3
<ailo> So far it seems like you're getting a personal experience from these tunings, that only applies to one or two machines. We need more machines, and the same testing procedure on all of them
<ailo> Even though, that experience of course is valuable when forming the tests
<ailo> Time for another morning lap..
<ailo> Every time I go the US user channel, there's been someone asking a question and then waited patiently for 3 min before leaving 
<ailo> len-dt: This might be handy for something http://www.ubuntu-mini-remix.org/
<ailo> astraljava: At some point I think it would be good to document some of the things that ubuntu devs do. It's kind of hard to form a picture about the whole procedure, since there's really no documentation about it right now
<ailo> It would especially be helpful for new people wanting to join the dev team
<len-dt> ailo, running test 2, swappiness turned down to 0. 6 hours so far no xruns.
<ailo> len-dt: Could you reproduce the xruns you think you might have cause by stopping the screen saver?
<ailo> Also, I don't know if I am correct in assuming that -lowlatency is not 100% realtime, and there may be random xruns at any point, without any apparent cause
<ailo> astraljava: I'd like to go ahead and clean up the other wiki too. A lot of it is outdated, and those pages should either be removed or updated. One thing that is not clear to me is what roles people have in the team. I think it would be nice to update this page with relevant info http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<ailo> len-dt: What do you do when testing, other than keeping jack on?
<ailo> Usually, jack itself is much more reliable than when you start using a program with it
<ailo> Ardour is probably one of the best performing jack apps
<ailo> If you are to test swap, wouldn't you need to challenge it somehow, by using the system for music production, but something that would normally involve swap?
<ailo> I'm just thinking out loud
<ailo> One simple thing that may cause xruns is just opening and closing windows, having the graphics work a bit
<len-dt> ailo, this morning I got a pile of xruns with just jack running. Twice. I want to figure out what that was first. I have to have a baseline.
<ailo> len-dt: Maybe try stuff with a minimal system, running only from the terminal?
<astraljava> ailo: I would appreciate it very much. :) Could you write on the -devel list and ask people to update their commitments and responsible areas?
<ailo> Bad internet. Bad, bad internet..
<len-dt> ailo, I have tried stressing the system and found that I can run audio stuff till I run out of memory. CPU cycles is not a problem.
<len-dt> Jackd is ,even at rest, putting out 44100 16 or 24 bit words to each channel even if they are all zeros.
<len-dt> If something can muck up that even at idle, I need to know. My thought is something swapped... probably back in would be the worst. with swappiness at 0 that shouldn't happen. I'll know tomorrow :-)
<ailo> len-dt: That is my conclusion too. Even when having both cores at 100% for lengthy periods, it won't bother jack, unless there is a realtime process competing with jack. And most processes are not doing that
<len-dt> Once I have this problem solved I will turn things back on one at a time
<len-dt> starting with PA-jack bridge.
<len-dt> cron may take some time to test. I will have to test it with eth0 connected because wlan is a known problem for me (and If what I hear is correct a significant number of other people)
<len-dt> ailo, Some things are less worrisome than others. Those things that cause problems right away as soon as they are turned on are easy to fix.
<len-dt> It is rather the things that don't cause problems most of the time, like cron and friends, but could start something in the middle of things.
<len-dt> ailo, You may have missed some
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah, my connection sucks today. Need to wait almost 3 months to replace this crappy service
<len-dt> Yuck.
<len-dt> ailo, now that your back... I'm off to bed. I'll see where my xruns are in the morning.
<ailo> len-dt: Ok. Good Night
<ailo_> Seems like I won't be doing much work online today. Might as well do other things
<ailo_> I'm logging out until this connection gets better
<ttoine> hi
<len-dt> scott-work, Sent you what I could for a bluprint. to your gmail
<scott-work> len-dt: i got it, thanks :)
<len-dt> scott-work, great.
<scott-work> i've had a slightly disappointing weekend where i dealt with some unexpected issues and didn't get many things done that i had intended
<scott-work> :(
<scott-work> blueprints being one of those
<scott-work> i hope to get them resolved in the next few days
<len-dt> scott-work, I figured. NP I have been going ahead with testing. some things. Read the irc logs if you are interested/have time.
<scott-work> i will read them, it may be in a couple of days however
<len-dt> scott-work, I figured having the BP was more important.
<len-dt> this is a holiday in Canada so I am home till the family figures out where we are going.
<scott-work> we have a holiday next monday, it's possible kate stewart (the release manager) might yell at me before but if i don't get the blueprints done soon i will have a three day weekend to complete them ;)
<len-dt> scott-work, it seems may 31 is the deadline?
<scott-work> is it?  do you have a link?
<len-dt> scott-work, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<len-dt> may 31 is FeatureDefinitionFreeze
<scott-work> i think that's more for "features" in applications, so this gives time to work out bugs in new features
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureDefinitionFreeze talks about "landing in main"
<scott-work> "main" being the main repository for applications
<len-dt> scott-work, the whole idea of bluprints and all these dates for this and that are still kind of confusing for me. Starting to make sense, but mostly someone says this has to be done by this date, I just go "OK"
<len-dt> Thats what you are there for :-)
<scott-work> hehe
<scott-work> unfortunatly i don't think the blueprints are really documentated to the point where they due date is published
<scott-work> this is a good place for much information about blueprints:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/about.html
<scott-work> i am remiss to not have pointed it out before
<scott-work> and this is different than the one i gave before
<scott-work> this is more techincal knowledge about how blueprints are made and used
<len-dt> For some of us it is too much information anyways.
<len-dt> scott-work, anyway. I have a working mode change setup now and am using it to test tweaks.
<scott-work> eh, len-dt, i realize they changes some of that status.ubuntu.com blueprint information
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto has other information about how to stage work items, this is actually more handy
<scott-work> granted it is still a lot of information but it shows you how it will be used
<len-dt> just learning about how the kernel does swapping... it seems if the kernel swaps in something even not to do with audio. The swap itself can affect the audio performance.
<len-dt> scott-work, so generating bugs seems to be the preferred way of adding things.
<len-dt> The whole idea being to automate progress tracking.
<scott-work> len-dt: i wouldn't say "bug" that bugs are to be used for feature requests or improvements, but i agree that the intent is to automate progress tracking
<scott-work> errr
<scott-work> "i wouldn't say that bugs are to be used..."
<scott-work> things like unity or multiple-monitor improvements probably didn't have many bugs when they started the process (although i'm sure bugs now exist for them) :P
<len-dt> scott-work, what I was saying I guess, is that the progress reports prefer to point to a url such as a bugreport/feature request rather than have textual changes in it's own document.
<len-dt> And reading again, there will be some things that are put in text when the document is created, but bugs are what is expected for changes after that.
<len-dt> Anyway, I am probably focusing on tweaks and apps for setting tweaks this cycle. Fixing the menu and adding something like qasmixer would be nice too
<scott-work> i would say that blueprints serve various functions, not all of which are used everytime
<scott-work> sometimes they are used for brainstorming and then developing into actionable "work items" and finally used to track progress
<scott-work> sometimes the brainstorming is quite an extensive time
<scott-work> others the brainstorming isn't really needed because both the problem and solution are clearly defined (which is usually the case with us for most times)
<scott-work> your blueprint might include more of the brainstorming because we are still exploring what might and what might not be a solution
<scott-work> although by the time the blueprint is actually written, you might have already worked through that issue :P
<scott-work> but mainly i think blueprints were conceived of a way to define (overall) what improvements (whether new features or fixing things) are to be done during a cycle and then tracking that progress
<len-dt> scott-work, I am finding out why I am not in management... :P   To me this is all about saying the same thing in different ways, something I am not too good at or perhaps not too patient with
<len-dt> I can see the need for standardising the way things are laid out though.
<scott-work> sometimes the differing semantics are important, but probably not in most of these cases
<len-dt> I'm best with tinkering I think. I'm learning to be careful not to assume too much and try to make sure the results I am getting really say what I think they do.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-22
<ailo> len-dt: Do you have a personal page on wiki.ubuntu.com ?
<len-dt> ailo,  A who?
<len-dt> Why would I do dat
<len-dt> ailo, ulatency doesn't work for me...
<ailo> len-dt: Something like this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender
<ailo> astraljava: Can't find your personal wiki page
<ailo> I just got one myself. Very spartan https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ailo
<ailo> len-dt: I'm about to start updating wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio, and I will begin by determining who is doing what on this project
<ailo> Ok, it's light enough to see where I'm running. I'm aiming at running 10km under 35 min next year, and have started extreme training for that. So, it's a fast lap almost every morning for me
<len-dt> ailo, it apears things swap no matter where swappiness is set... even with not very much memory use. unless my system started to hibernate itself?
<ailo> len-dt: The first version of ubuntustudio-controls will only do one thing. Administer user realtime privilege. That is something you can't do graphically very easily on Ubuntu, and if you create a new user, there's nothing telling you you need to be apart of audio group to get realtime privilege
<ailo> Gnome3, which Unity is based on, uses a much simpler user account manager, with no group editing
<ailo> For people upgrading from any other Ubuntu derived distro, they will also not know about audio group
<ailo> But, with -controls, they just need to use a toggle, and it will be set
<len-dt> ailo, Ok.
<ailo> len-dt: My focus for the next couple of weeks will be the website and the wiki. So, I won't be helping out much with testing, which I think we need to set up a plan for. 
<ailo> We need to document what a tweak does and why we need it
<ailo> Also, the testing must accurately prove it
<len-dt> Ya, my testing has been useful if not too practical.
<len-dt> but it does seem to show that swap does bad things for audio.
<len-dt> And it shows that swap happens all the time. It does not matter where swappiness is set, after enough time, things still swap out.
<ailo> len-dt: Are you saying, the swappiness setting has no effect, and that swap is used no matter what?
<len-dt> ailo,  the swappiness setting has a great effect in the short term. but after 26 hours swap has happened anyway. The system shows 22%memory use and 46% swap...
<len-dt> 22+46 is a lot less than 100%
<ailo> Sounds mysterious. Perhaps there are kernel options that would help
<len-dt> Well, how many recording sessions would last 26 hours? would have lots of tasks sitting doing nothing?
<ailo> My internet seems a bit more stable today. I will try to get my kernel PPA running
<len-dt> Jack was busy of course and never suffered dropout, but when I tried to do anything after that... almost everything had to be swapped in.
<ailo> len-dt: Live recording, on festivals and such, though 26h is probably a bit unusual
<ailo> Actually, there are other things too
<ailo> Like live installations
<len-dt> Live recording would be different again because there would be disk use and disk cache buildup.
<ailo> Live installations might, or might not use hard disk. Anyway, hard disk is a variable
<ailo> Both read and write
<len-dt> ailo, I am going to try again with a swapoff command and see where that goes.
<len-dt> I should probably reboot first though :-)
<len-dt> just to start with zero swap use.
<ailo> You could try formatting your swap partition, removing swap all together. But, what effects would that have on the system?
<len-dt> ailo, I am starting to think that no one has really done a thorough job of setting up a system just for audio.
<len-dt> swap off runs the system with no swap.
<len-dt> s/swap off/swapoff/
<kubotu> len-dt meant: "swapoff runs the system with no swap."
<ailo> Ah, right
<len-dt> Where did that guy come from? I thought he was turned off...
<ailo> He's a lurker
<len-dt> thank you for the correction kubotu 
<len-dt> Anyway, in the short term, swappiness set to 0 is helpful and probably safer than swapoff.
<len-dt> ailo, I am pretty sure any standalone disk recording box has no swap, just memory. The device is engineered to never run out of memory.
<astraljava> ailo: I don't think I have one.
<len-dt> ailo,  There are things I could do to make a very good recording machine, but not such a good computer for anything else.
<len-dt> I don't want to see us ship US tweaked so it is no good for all the other things it is supposed to be good for. Or for a lots of desktop like stuff for that matter.
<ailo> Great timing for this. Someone finished it 4 days ago http://python-gtk-3-tutorial.readthedocs.org/en/latest/index.html
<ailo> astraljava: Don't know if you need reference, but the above should be somewhate usefule
<Len-nb> ailo, I'm going to try this:
<Len-nb> Mem:   1016584k total,   447240k used,   569344k free,    48092k buffers
<Len-nb> Swap:        0k total,        0k used,        0k free,   252688k cached
<Len-nb> To make sure no swap at all does get rid of strange stuff. Then I will try hard use on the system to see what happens as I get close to full memory use.
<ailo> I wonder what the record is in replies to a thread on debian-devel list
<ailo> They're discussing a possible change of their init system
<len-dt> ailo, init? are they using upstart?
<len-dt> ailo, anyway, playing around with no swap. It is interesting how much stuff must be swapped out normally. I can't run as many synths as I have with swap on. but qjackctl is always there when I need to change connections. I'll run it like this till tomorrow after noon and see where things are.
<ailo> len-dt: They are still on the old system, but there has been discussion about alternatives, where upstart is mentioned. There are other ones too. Debian Wheezy is alpha now, so I guess the change will only happen for wheezy+1.
<len-dt> So they are using sys v then
<ailo> Yep
<len-dt> Why change?
<ailo> I wouldn't know, and I guess that is what they are discussing about, very passionately at times
<len-dt> Aside from faster startup
<ailo> I think faster startup is probably one of the main arguments for
<len-dt> Yes, it is the configuration headache that is the downside
<ailo> I guess it might be cool for laptops to be slighly faster. Other than that, who cares?
<ailo> It's not like booting Windows Vista anyway, which is like submitting to torture
<astraljava> ailo: I believe I do. Thanks!
<ailo> Been testing mixing with ardour2
<ailo> Routing seems very buggy
<ailo> Hopefully A3 is a lot better when it comes to that
<astraljava> When's it coming out, anyway?
<ailo> Should be anytime now. They haven't released another beta for a while
<ailo> Also, one would think mixbus will release a new version after that, but who knows
<astraljava> Hi gang, please have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/MultipleMonitors and comment if needed. ochosi on #xubuntu-devel mentioned this, and (quite correctly) presumed it might be interesting for [us|US] as well.
<astraljava> Oh, and he's here, too. :D Oh well.
<knome> har har.
<ailo> A3 is no doubt better at routing
<len-dt> astraljava, the one thing I would add is a default profile for when a second monitor shows up mid session.
<len-dt> In the case of a desktop user who always has two monitors, but forgets to turn on the second one at boot. The setup defaults to single/mirrored when it is turned on even though it was set fort side by side on last boot.
<len-dt> In other words yes profiles. Keep the default for only one monitor as is, but add a default for two monitors.
<len-dt> Also, should the second monitor vanish... the whole desk should fit on the monitor that is left... it doesn't right now. It leaves the screen size as if both monitors were there but puts the main monitor in the middle so there is no longer access to the menu even for getting settings to change things.
 * len-dt is off to work...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-23
<len-dt> ailo_, Got any ideas about how the screen saver/blanking should be set up for recording or other audio work?
<len-dt> What is normal practice?
<len-dt> Is normal practice to expect to see what is on the screen for the whole session? or is a blank screen part way through ok?
<len-dt> holstein, same question. I am asking both from a performance point of view (does the screen turning off and on affect jack?) and from a workflow view.
<len-dt> My thought is that with a flat screen there is no "burn in" so why a "screen saver"?
<len-dt> So this is (for anyone who cares to comment) what do you do?
<ailo_> len-dt: I haven't spent any time understanding the screen saver. Hasn't caused me any problems so far
<len-dt> ailo_, I have had strange things when screen saver stopped started, but that was long time ago now. I have had problems with the nvidia card too, but that is a whole different story.
<len-dt> The one I was using on the netbook seemed to have a memory leak though.
<len-dt> I was just wondering from a user view if it was easier to work with a screen that was always live or if there any problem with screen blanking being a distraction.
<ailo_> len-dt: It might be a problem if you're using something else than mouse and keyboard to control the machine, while you need to monitor visually
<ailo_> But, usually you realize that and just disable the screen saving settings
<len-dt> ailo_, That was the answer I was looking for... People are so used to screens blanking that it doesn't matter. The only time it does is when using an input device That x doesn't see as an input device. My other thought is that in normal use the mouse or keyboard is getting used more often than the screen time out.
<len-dt> There is an article here that says all programs leak memory: http://www.alexonlinux.com/swap-vs-no-swap
<frewsxcv> So I was looking at the website, and it sounds like you guys are putting together a new site?
<ailo_> frewsxcv: A new is coming shortly, yes
<len-dt> astraljava, is xubuntu failing to build these days too?
<len-dt> Looks like the 1386 version is. 
<astraljava> len-dt: I only see amd64 iso files on there, but good that you mentioned that, I have not seen emails about those builds. I have to ask around how I could get them.
<len-dt> Ya, I was just asking on xubuntu-devel
<len-dt> It looks like a different problem all together. Our last image is may18
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-24
<Len-nb> ailo_, found my problem. I tested running with no swap. Very stable BTW. and found the next day I was at a login screen... 
<Len-nb> My first thought was that it had rebooted on me, but after I had logged in I found I was still at RL3... Hmmm must be a memory leak. I watched memory for a long time and the amount of ram in use was very stable.
<Len-nb> must be something that was running when I wasn't watching. 1st guess? screen saver. (i was using GLSchool) so I reverted to "blank only". Ran overnight again and there were no problems.
<Len-nb> will test with swap on again and swappiness 0.
<ailo> Ardour beta4a just came out
<ailo> Ardour 3 beta4
<ailo> They say it's the last beta, so maybe the final will be out within a few months, maybe 3?
<len-dt> ailo, Sounds good. The only problem I have had with the A3 betas is that I have not found a way to export toc files. I can set cd markers etc, but I guess the export toc is not in the same place?
<ailo> len-dt: Which version did you try that on?
<ailo> According to beta 3 release notes "Restore ability to create TOC and CUE files during export, and improve the formatting of these files "
<ailo> len-dt: I haven't done much work with that in the past, but just trying the export function, it seems it's all there
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-25
<falktx__> hey guys
<falktx__> does anyone know about Dick MacInnis?
<falktx__> afaik he was doing some work for US theme..
<frewsxcv> I only know most people on IRC by their handle
<frewsxcv> We need to get a Tremulous game going
<frewsxcv> We used to play that in years ago with the Ubuntu Studio devs
<holstein> there were ubuntu studio devs?
<falktx__> lol
<astraljava> No, there were not that many devs. But the hang-arounds did play it. *smirk*
 * astraljava was a member of neither group
<astraljava> Where's Scott?
<knome> probably crying in the corner
<astraljava> What did you do to him?
<astraljava> He says he's not too hurt.
<ailo> Finally seem to have my internet working
<ailo> knome: Would you say you or any other people from Xubuntu are a part of the Ubuntu Studio team, or are you just helping out in general? I guess you are at least involved with managing the web site
<ailo> I'm updating the wiki, and want to start with the team structure. Just want to know who is doing what
<ailo> I'm waiting for a reply from Scott about this, and after that I will post about it on the devel list
<ailo> I'll be off for a few hours..
<knome> ailo, yeah, i'm just helping out here and there
<knome> ailo, the collaboration between X and US is hard to describe
<knome> anyway, bbl
 * len-dt thinks the collaboration between X and US is mostly one way. 
<astraljava> Sort of. But some US-devs are working on Xubuntu, I don't know whether that counts. :)
<astraljava> But if you think about it, US is a specialized X, so it sorta makes sense. :)
<knome> the thing is, it's hard to say whether any single member of xubuntu should also be a member of a subteam of US
<knome> and in a way, i think this is good... it demonstrates that the collaboration is not too much tied to bureaucracy, but rather what people are interested in and what practically makes most sense
<ailo> knome: Ok. I'll just consider Xubuntu folks as a kind bunch of nomads around here then
<knome> yep, that sounds good. unless accessing something needs that somebody is on the team, i wouldn't specifically add anybody of us to the teams :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-26
<ailo> Got my internet working. And I'm halway at putting together some machines for testing.
<ailo> len-dt: Have a look https://plus.google.com/u/0/112189543347229003538/postsv
<ailo> I'm also going to add a notebook and a netbook to the mix
<len-dt> ailo, What kinds of test cases do you have in mind?
<len-dt> I am looking at testing ulatencyd. It should be able to allow putting the audio programs in a low/no swappiness group while leaving other things normal.
<ailo> len-dt: I was thinking we do something systematic with testing later. There are some things that you need to have several test cases for, in order to determine what they do in general
<ailo> Not only for one machine
<len-dt> ailo, yup.
<ailo> len-dt: I can offer you ssh access later. Trying to get the thtpd server working, but my gateway isn't very configurable when it comes to dhcp, so when I try to boot with network, I get the gateways dhcp, but when I get to the desktop, I get the dhcp from my server
<len-dt> My thoughts have been about defining what an audio program is.
<ailo> Sounds deep
<ailo> len-dt: What for?
<len-dt> I am thinking that I use more than one workspace/desktop when I do audio work.
<len-dt> so it seems that the workspace switcher is now audio software
<len-dt> What other non-audio SW becomes important in the audio workflow?
<ailo> I think it's impossible to determine, and we should not determine what software the user should or will combine
<ailo> For whatever purpose
<ailo> But let's say the user is asked during install what they will be using the OS for..
<len-dt> ailo,  So swappiness needs to be zero for audio work.
<ailo> Choosing audio implies you won't be using it to edit movies 
<ailo> I'm more in the line that the OS should be configured to work for everyone
<len-dt> Does someone who is editting movies what their work to swap out?
<ailo> Right now, it's very fast for audio, in general. There are some machines that have problems. Some machines that have problems, we don't know why even
<ailo> I'm pretty far away from forming any opinions on swap right now though
<ailo> And there's no hurry
<ailo> We should put up a plan, document, test, and find out what the data says
<len-dt> ailo, Yes, even my old machines don't run out of CPU cycles. They run out of memory though.
<len-dt> ailo, why are people trying to install US 11.04?
 * len-dt was just checking backlog on #ubuntustudio.
<ailo> Probably a misprint
<ailo> .04 sounds right. 11.10 would make more sense than 11.04, if someone hadn't realized a new one was out
<len-dt> Could be. I thought I had tried install without net without that problem.
<ailo> Just realized I need to set up port forwarding for my tftp. Maybe I got it now..
<len-dt> ailo, I get the sense that in general people expect the odd glitch while doing audio work.
<len-dt> That the odd xrun may show up that seems not to be explained.
<ailo> Don't know. I don't read a lot about random xruns though
<ailo> Maybe people don't admit it, or figure it was something explainable
<len-dt> ailo, I think I am going to break my tweak mode stuff out of the workflow stuff and make it separate.
<len-dt> I think it is worthwhile being able to make a quiet machine while recording/performing
<len-dt> I think no matter what machine a person has, they are likely to to push it's limits at some time.
<len-dt> I would like those limits to be as broad as possible.
<len-dt> ailo, I think there are a number of people who may have kernel module issues.
<len-dt> Some people just go and buy another machine, but I think that is not always the best answer.
<astraljava> It is if they give me the old one.
 * astraljava hasn't bought a new computer since '97.
 * len-dt has many donated machines too.
<ailo> My standpoint on tweaks is that only those should be made default that absolutely will improve something for someone, and will absolutely not make things worse for someone else. Any tweaks other than those should be considered trouble shooting configs
<ailo> Since most machines works OOTB as it is, most tweaks are either not that important, or good for troubleshooting
<ailo> For those that have real issues, any help is gold
<ailo> So, troubleshooting configs are great, if they do solve problems for people
<ailo> If adjusting swap is best for everyone, by default, then add that to default settings. If it would make things worse for someone, while solve someone else problems, add it as an option
<ailo> And just make sure it is clear what the options do, so that people don't think they will benefit from all of them
<ailo> But this is still far from where we are at now
<len-dt> I would like to find some memory for my old machine.
<ailo> First, test. Then, on basis of the data, figure out how to implement it, if needed
<len-dt> I do think that swappiness set to 10 instead of 60 would probably bo good for everyone.
<ailo> len-dt: You could write something up about that on the wiki. I still need to go through that myself, in order to know why
<len-dt> check out shnatsel's site. It has some good thoughts and a link that explains it really well.
<shnatsel> who summons me?
<ailo> len-dt: We will still need to document everything we do, and explain why something is good/bad, if we are to suggest changes
<len-dt> You were just mentioned... I was pointing to your site.
<ailo> I wouldn't want to do the same work twice, if sufficient testing already has been made
<shnatsel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwapFaq - this is the current state
<shnatsel> I think you should contact the kernel team and ask them why they set swappiness to 60 by default
<len-dt> swappiness 60 is great for most servers or for a development machine. but low swappiness makes for a much nicer desktop experience.
<shnatsel> they've got different kernel packages for desktop and server anyway, so that's not an excuse
<len-dt> but swappiness still defaults to 60.
<shnatsel> so let's go ahead and ask why it's still that way
<shnatsel> also, Ubiquity enables swap to zram when no swap partition is created or found on the system
<len-dt> From the page you listed "The default setting in Ubuntu is swappiness=60. Reducing the default value of swappiness will probably improve overall performance for a typical Ubuntu desktop installation. A value of swappiness=10 is recommended"
<shnatsel> and I've just discovered a "zram-config" package very similar to my "zramswap-enabler", gotta merge the implementations
<shnatsel> my "site", in case you're wondering: http://shnatsel.blogspot.com/ But you'd better read the "Improving OOTB performance" thread on Ubuntu Studio mailing list, it has more real experimental data
<len-dt> shnatsel, if I have both zram and a swap partition, is it possible to have some applications use the zram and others default to disk?
<shnatsel> len-dt: no idea. Check cgroups swap documentation on TLDP
<shnatsel> or elsewhere
<len-dt> ailo, Interesting, if I connect a USB audio IF, I can only set latency as low as the internal audio IF.
<len-dt> But, if I turn the internal IF off in PA, I can now set the USB IF lower.
<ailo> len-dt: Wonder if the latency is really set lower then
<len-dt> Unfortunately I can not turn the internal audio IF off in  my bios
<ailo> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that though
<len-dt> ailo, I suspect PA tries to keep the latency of all its ports the saem.
<ailo> "set latency as low as the internal audio IF". What did you mean by that?
<len-dt> ailo, I can set my internal IF with jack to run at -p 128 at the lowest.
<len-dt> if I plug in a USB IF and use it with jack I can only set -p 128 as well.
<ailo> You mean jack won't run at lower latencies than 128 with the USB IF while the internal card is used for PA?
<len-dt> but if I configure PA to turn the internal IF off then I can get the USB IF in jack to run at -p 64
<len-dt> ailo, yes.
<ailo> So, how's the performance at 64?
<len-dt> So far seems about the same as at 128
<len-dt> The wireless is loaded so the same xrun/minute shows up.
<ailo> Ok, so you get that with the USB too
<len-dt> Yes. I think it is a wireless HW thing.
<len-dt> Acer cheaped out on something to get the unit to be cheaper than everyone else's
<ailo> Too big interrupt messages for the network card?
<len-dt> No idea. There was already a bug in for this problem and someone else on this irc has mentioned it too.
<len-dt> So there are at least 3 people who have seen this.
<ailo> I changed my tactics. Instead of booting from network when installing (which I can't do as long as I have all the machines in the same network, since my gateway can't disable its' dhcp), I'll try booting from usb hard disk. I think all of my machines support that.
<len-dt> ailo, personally, I would be quite happy to do without wireless to have good audio
<ailo> len-dt: I think it's a crude way to fix a problem, but I would be happy to have that option, if I had that problem
<ailo> I wouldn't mind adding that as an option to a configuration application, such as Ubuntu Studio Controls. Only, I'd make sure to put it in a trouble-shooting category
<astraljava> ailo: Which reminds me, when you wanna talk about that app?
<astraljava> Can we set up a work meeting for that?
<len-dt> I have changed the bug report. I have added that if I use netmanager to disable wireless the module should reset instead of do constant scan mode.
<ailo> astraljava: For now, I have no ideas about it, since we haven't even begun forming docs on testing, which would serve as a blueprint for a good part of it. I only know of one feature I would like to include for sure, and that is administering user realtime privilege
<astraljava> ailo: Fair enough. Let's talk more later when we have further plans in place.
<len-dt> ailo, did you want to have the config of any "tweak mode" set by the saem app or separate?
<len-dt> s/saem/same
<ailo> len-dt: It would seem logical to me to have all tweakable options in the same application
<len-dt> ok
<ailo> If a user would like to set many options at the same time, but only temporarily, I can see the need for a "mode button"
<ailo> A "normal mode", and a "tweaked mode"
<ailo> For most people a "normal mode" should already be good enough
<len-dt> ailo, I had thought of having more than one extra mode, but I am thinking one will be enough.
<ailo> If you can tailor the mode, and maybe even save profiles for it, you just need to toggle between two modes
<ailo> Someone will like to enable/disable rtirq. Someone will want to disable NM, and so on
<ailo> len-dt: I never tried stopping rtirq. Would you like to try it? "/etc/init.d/rtirq stop"
<ailo> I don't have it enabled at all right now, since I've booted without threadirqs
<ailo> You can monitor the change with : "pd -eo comm,rtprio"
<ailo> "ps -eo comm,rtprio"
<len-dt> ailo, I haven't got to that yet. Memory and swappiness (and ath9k) seem to have a far greater impact in any of my tests so far.
<ailo> len-dt: I was just wondering if that is one option you can change during login
<ailo> I guess it should be, since it can be started/stopped
<len-dt> My feeling is different from your's on good enough. I think both ideas are correct though.
<len-dt> ailo, I don't think at login is the best time to change these things.
<len-dt> It keeps the session from being multi-use.
<ailo> I don't see why that is a problem
<len-dt> Some people want a "normal" computer that they sometimes do audio stuff on. And they should get a good audio experience while having all the rest of their desktop function properly.
<ailo> Ok, so there are some possibilies for the mode toggle. Either during the same login, or in worst case, you need to reboot
<ailo> len-dt: I don't think the mode is for everyone. Maybe less than 10%
<ailo> That has been my standpoint all along
<len-dt> Others want a hot audio machine. I have yet to find a change that needs a reboot.
<len-dt> As speciality distro I think it is important to cover thet 10%
<len-dt> Again I am talking opinion, I am not necessarily correct.
<ailo> Because of the small amount of people it will cover, even among pro audio enthusiasts, is why I suggest these are primarily for troubleshooting on machines that behave abnormally
<len-dt> But that is also why I like the mode idea as it means the 90% can do nothing and be fine.
<ailo> And those who have problems will of course want to fix them
<ailo> I only see one reason to have a mode at all. It's when you want to toggle many settings at once
<len-dt> Yup.
<ailo> Right now, I don't see why someone would want to do that, but I would like to find out
<len-dt> I use my laptop/netbook as a normal netbook, I also use it for recording. I have to have a mode change for that to be possible.
<len-dt> I do use wireless all the time, but I can't when doing anyhting audio.
<ailo> I think a mode toggle might be easier to control, than going through a list of tweakable options each time though, so even if you only change one option with the mode shift, it might still serve a purpose
<len-dt> It seems to be easy to do. I am doing it with one click on or off.
<ailo> I just want to make sure that the user realizes he shouldn't need it at all, and it's only for those who absolutely need it. The user shouldn't have to do anything. Just plug and play
<len-dt> Ok by me.
<ailo> I would change my mind, if we find a system tweak that absolutely helps audio operation for most machines, and which at the same time is bad for other things, like video or graphics. If we end up in a situation like that, I would propose to recommend the user to use a mode change to help improve his audio performance
<ailo> I wonder if it would have been quicker to copy 50 GB from my usb drive to my internal, and then back, rather than copy from one partitiom to another on the same drive
<len-dt> ailo, the problem for me is I do not know how to test video/graphics uses. So while I know that swappiness 0 will help audio, I do not have a clue what it would do for other things. or how to test it.
<ailo> len-dt: I guess we will need to find that out :P
<len-dt> ailo, we really need someone who does those things to help. It is the big thing missing for me.
<astraljava> For so many years I remember there's only been a handful of people who were into graphics/video. I hung out on #cinelerra for a little while, but since that's in a very bad state ATM, I couldn't attract any interest in any of the regulars there.
<len-dt> astraljava, are there any webpages that have setup tips for these things?
<astraljava> I haven't stumbled upon any, but then I haven't exactly been looking, either.
<len-dt> astraljava, so perhaps start with a good strong desktop setup then.
<ailo> Another user asked for help on the us channel, but only waited for 4 min
<len-dt> ailo, even funnier is they came up under a name and changed it to guest before asking.
<ailo> pro graphics and video at least requires a decent graphic card, and also a monitor
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah? Why do they do that?
<len-dt> Yes, but how does that chaneg any setting we would do?
<astraljava> len-dt: Let's talk about that sometimes, I have to go now, though.
<ailo> I think both cpu and memory is used extensively, but more so, cpu
<ailo> I mean, processing
<len-dt> Ya I figured.
<ailo> I forget the word, when you for instance make a 3d scene into a movie, what do you call it?
<len-dt> rendering?
<ailo> That kind of stuff can take a days to process
<ailo> Yeah, rendering
<len-dt> sound like lots of swap.
<ailo> For graphics I think you want a fast cpu, and fast loading
<ailo> When you're editing, you want things to move in the same pace as your thoughts
<ailo> Same for video editing
<ailo> Don't know if you require a lot of RAM
<ailo> But, people who do that a lot I'm sure know what hardware they need
<ailo> Even though, like for audio, some do it low budget
<len-dt> ailo, I think it may be best to see what is needed in the windows world, what the problems are and how we can improve on that.
<len-dt> There may be more information around that way.
<ailo> One thing I've read is that people want to use linux for video and graphics, but feel they can't because they lack the software for it
<ailo> I just recently read about lightworks having a linux version on the way, which would change things on the video side
<len-dt> So looking at a win/mac workflow and making sure we have that available and documented is worth while.
<len-dt> It is funny, I worked in the TV industry and have a good idea how mauch of this was done (80 to 85 ish) in analogue terms, but not a clue what people do these days.
<ailo> My dad said the same thing about cars. He grew up in his fathers shop
<ailo> I'm going to install a minimal system on my usb drive and try use that to boot a netinstaller. Just wish I can disconnect it once the installation has started, so I don't need to install one machine at the time
<ailo> Going to install them over ssh. Should speed things up when you do 4 at the time
<ailo> laterz
<len-dt> ailo, I realize you may not see this for a while, but wanted to say it before I forget...
<len-dt> Just looking at the other machine that normally gives xrun/minute. and since I turned the internal audio IF off, that problem has gone.
<len-dt> I mean turned the internal IF off in PA. 
<len-dt> So the PA-jack bridge allows PA to affect jack.
<ailo> len-dt: That does make sense, even though one would not want the pa bridge to do anything if not activated
<ailo> Finally got all my computers hooked up into the network. Now, I just need to get them installed
<ailo> Going to install basic debian servers on each computers, so I can easily install anything from local hard disk on each computer. Will transfer the images through ssh. This way, each new install won't be as painful. Would be great to automate the install even
<shnatsel> ailo: there are tools for that in Debian for ages
<ailo> shnatsel: Never tried it before
<ailo> Never had to install on multiple computers
<shnatsel> ailo: from basic "dpkg --get-selections > somefile" on one machine and restoring the same software configurations on others to fully automated installation of the system
<shnatsel> ailo: google it then
<shnatsel> ailo: image transfer is a very ugly way which is common because it's the only way to transfer Windows. It also works only between identical hardware configurations and only sometimes.
<ailo> I'm talking about the installation media
<shnatsel> oh yes, there are tools for that too.
<shnatsel> several, in fact.
<shnatsel> preseed is probably one of them
<ailo> I was going to use tftp, but my gateway can't shut off dphcp, so I can never boot into the right one
<ailo> I just looked up preseed
<ailo> Sounds like that might work for me
<shnatsel> preseed is designed for such use cases AFAIR, though I've never used it
<ailo> I was first thinking about installing through ssh, but even that is more work then needed
<shnatsel> I make Ubuntu LiveCD remasters for mass distribution and installation. Doesn't work quite well, installing on 15 machines was tedious.
<shnatsel> ailo: try asking in some Debian channel, or googling. Google surely knows a lot of solutions.
<ailo> http://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.enhttp://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.en
<ailo> That was a strange paste
<shnatsel> you mean http://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.en
<ailo> Well, there's a few options to go through, which means I have more work to do tomorrow
<ailo> That's all for me today. gn US
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-27
<ailo> len-dt: I think we just may need to improve functionality for pulseaudio-jack-module
<ailo> pactl can load and unload pulseaudio modules, but I don't think that is the way to go
<ailo> When you load the module, you get it's ID, so that helps creating a script that loads/onloads it at will
<ailo> Also, pasuspender could still be used
<ailo> The best thing would be just to improve the module
<ailo> Either with feedback to the developers, or try make changes/patches for it
<ailo> I need to look more at how it works
<ailo> Right now, I just installed jackd2, but I don't seem to be able to use the PA module
<ailo> All PA sinks and sources are suspended however :O
<ailo> I see that from: pactl list
<ailo> Restarting PA was enough to get the bridge working again
<ailo> len-dt: The module itself is coded by David Henningson
<ailo> len-dt: Also, it will be interesting to see how the new qjackctl is improved regarding jackdbus
<len-dt> ailo, I agree loading/unloading PA modules is not the best, It would be better if the module could be turned off/on.
<len-dt> I don't know if that is possible... or if it is, what other problems might be there.
<len-dt> I think it would require the module to have it's own connection to dbus or for the module to be more integrated with pulse itself so it could use PA's dbus connection.
<ailo> len-dt: I don't think there is any way to turn it off. In effect, unloading the module is turning it off. But what I meant as a better alternatvive was to improve how the module interacts with jack, and make sure it does nothing until you want it to connect.
<ailo> I would guess the jack sink and jack source are typical jack apps
<ailo> And those should not be loaded, until used
<len-dt> ailo, pasuspender doesn't gain anything that I can tell.
<ailo> To imrove the module, either we try to find a way by coding it, or we communicate to the developer side.
<len-dt> PA-jack bridge should only be used in a very few places. One is recording from gstreamer... I would prefer to see PA improved to allow patching an output to an input for that.
<len-dt> The other is to use PA with firewire stuff.
<ailo> You can't anticipate what people will use software for
<ailo> But, you can make it behave well
<ailo> I think the jack bridge would probably be handy in a lot of situations
<len-dt> I don't think the module can be made in such a way as to have PA not affect jack or vis versa.
<ailo> Why not?
<len-dt> I do think that for it's uses the user just has to accept higher latencies where it works just fine.
<len-dt> It has to be that way because the two apps have to be in sync
<len-dt> PA when bridged to jack has to sync it's audio to jack
<ailo> That is not different from any other software with jack support
<ailo> But, by improvement, I was more talking about when you are not using PA
<ailo> Right now, jack sink and source are always on, even when they are not used
<len-dt> Yes and any other SW that behaves badly can affect any of the software that is using jack at the time.
<len-dt> At least that is what I have found.
<ailo> PA doesn't need to sync with jack, if it's not connected to jack
<len-dt> Right
<ailo> There are three modules at play here
<len-dt> As soon as the bridge is loaded it has to sync.
<len-dt> PA starts feeding jack silence 
<len-dt> but that silence has to be in sync
<ailo> module-jackdbus-detect, module-jack-sink and module-jack-source
<ailo> We only need the jack sink and jack source to be spawn once we connect
<ailo> Right now they are on, even if we aren't using them
<len-dt> The detect module auto loades the other two and unloads them .
<ailo> That is what I would like to improve
<ailo> Make it not load the sink and source, until you choose jack as sink or source in the PA mixer
<len-dt> ailo,  they can't show up on jack as a connectible source unless they are in sync.
<ailo> You don't need them to be in sync, until you spawn them
<ailo> We'd want jack sink and source to appear in the PA mixer, but not actually be loaded, until chosen
<len-dt> The solution (I think) it to have just the module be in sync until PA connects a source to them.
<ailo> I also think it's confusing having PA show in jack, when PA is not connected to jack
<len-dt> How does the module know when you want it to appear in jack?
<ailo> jack is connected to the module, but not PA
<ailo> When you choose jack sink or jack source from PA mixer, the sink and source should appear in jack
<ailo> That is the way I would do it
<ailo> Should probably not take too much coding to make that happen
<len-dt> ailo, OK I don't know that I want to be the one to sugest this to David though :-)
<ailo> I should probably discuss this option somewhere. Maybe the PA mail list
<len-dt> You need to define it really well first
<len-dt> Have a use scenario ready.
<ailo> The logic is pretty simple. Have PA not interact with jack, until when jack is loaded, and you have chosen jack as either sink or source from PA mixer
<ailo> There's no reason for PA to interact with jack, when you are not using it with jack
<len-dt> Actually, I would want to be able to choose jack as a sink or source even before jackd was running. If jack is not running it should act the same as a dummy output sending the audio stream to nowhere
<ailo> Would you want the same thing for a device, that is no longer there?
<len-dt> Yes the logic is very simple, but unless the implementation is well defined what we end up with could be worse.
<len-dt> Jack is different from a device. Jack may be expect to vanish and reappear. And a user may wish it to remain as default device if that is their only device because they are using firewire
<ailo> Default yes, but not when it's not there. I'd have it auto route to whatever was used before jack was chosen
<ailo> And when turning on jack the next time, auto route back to jack
<len-dt> you and I differ there
<ailo> It would be great if jack could be controlled from the PA mixer, with session control, and connection abilities, simplified, all from the same place
<ailo> With a jack addon
<len-dt> ailo, jackd could use improvement, PA could too.
<len-dt> jackd should (in my opinion) deal directly with two IFs in sync without having to pretend it was all one device in alsa.
<len-dt> just as an example.
<len-dt> PA should allow patching of its outputs and inputs... 
<ailo> len-dt: Btw, there was a post about xruns not being real xruns on the jack devel list. 
<len-dt> Yes, I saw that, but anything I can hear is a real one.
<ailo> He was using two as one. I think perhaps he's the same guy who talked about that before
<ailo> That there may be xruns, but they aren't really causing any trouble
<len-dt> The problem with using two as one is that besides all the fake xruns, with some setup jack had to be started a few times before it would work at all. It is not stable.
<ailo> I never did much testing myself, but once I did get it going, it just worked for me
<ailo> It is however bad that it is so hard to get +8 channels for linux audio
<len-dt> yes some people have that experience and it seems other with the same IF don't
<ailo> You can daisy-chain firewire devices, and it is said to work alright, but will it sync properly?
<ailo> Propably too few people do that sort of thing
<len-dt> I don't have any to play with. ailo my short experience in testing has shown me that much of what I read does not work and that what works for me is not universal.
<ailo> len-dt: This is why we need to add more machines and devices to the mix. You have usb, I don't. I do have firewire, pci and builtin. And a bunch of machines, older and newer
<ailo> If we just do the same tests on all of them, we should start to see patterns
<len-dt> that is a start and will at least tell us what is happening with a stock install.
<ailo> I have 3 machines + this one hooked up right now. Another 2-3 could be added (notebooks and a netbook)
<ailo> If we automate tests, using scripts, it will make things easy enough
<len-dt> I wish I could disable the internal sound on my netbook.
<len-dt> ailo, I think swappiness should be added to studio controls. It appears the stock setting for ubuntu is wrong for desktops let alone audio
<ailo> If the stock settings are wrong for all sorts of desktops, I would recommend changing them by default. But, for further control, sure. Put them in controls
<ailo> I still think it's too early to talk about implementation. We just need to go through all tweaks, test them, document them. Decide, and then implement
<ailo> If we can make a sketch of the whole thing, as well as further ideas for -controls (administering user realtime privilege, and perhaps installing codecs and stuff like that), we can start making the -controls even before we know exactly what it should control
<ailo> But, that's not really an issue as far as testing goes
<len-dt> Yes it should be reported as bug/feature request. ubuntu's wiki recommends something different from what ships, so what ships should change or the recommendation should change 
<len-dt> There is already a bug: Bug #977319 about this. I just confirmed it. Does it make any difference if more people say it effects them?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977319 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Swappiness not optimal for desktops" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/977319
<ailo> That bug did not have many responses, so I would think so
<ailo> Perhaps there are more bugs on the same subject?
<len-dt> Bug #516834
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 516834 in linux (Ubuntu) "bad default swappiness for desktop systems" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/516834
<len-dt> I think a lot of people don't know they have this problem
<ailo> len-dt: Did you read the comments for the last link?
<len-dt> I'm doing so... it is fun.
<len-dt> It seems that for a machine that is basically out of memory a high swappiness value is better. But how many people have that. Once you have just a bit more memory lower is better.
<len-dt> However comment 41 says it all. That is whay there is a new bug.
<ailo> len-dt: Not a lot of interest to fix it, seemingly
<ailo> There's no stopping US from adding a fic
<ailo> fix*
<len-dt> ailo, no
<len-dt> yes, I think we need to.
<ailo> I wonder how other distros does this
<len-dt> audio is different enough from even desktop use to warrent it.
<len-dt> I would check kubuntu as they seemed to have the most interest in it.
<ailo> mint aught to be interested in this, being very desktop orientated
<ailo> Fedora, perhaps
<len-dt> It seesm the settings guys don't want to change it... should be kernel... kernel says no... and it ends there.
<len-dt> If all the *buntus put it in that may change '=_
<ailo> I think Fedora also uses 60
<ailo> Just found, quote "after upgrading default swappiness in Fedora 11 has been modified to 40 from 60!! "
<len-dt> Linux has traditionally been driven by server use.
<ailo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/linuxmint/+spec/swappiness
<ailo> Well, that was just a request :)
<ailo> I don't think Mint uses their own kernels, so they won't change that either propably
<len-dt> it is not a kernel change but a settings change. They can do it in just their own distro.
<len-dt> "Swappiness can be reduced by editing /etc/sysctl.conf."
<len-dt> Canonical actually gets paid for support by their business users and so that is likely to remain first concern
<Len-nb> ailo, our ISO is still not building, what steps can we take?
<Len-nb> Looks like a package incompatibility with something xfce4ish but I note xubuntu doesn't have the same problem. They don't seem to have fixed anything either, so it is something we have set up.
<Len-nb> Not something we have changed though, so some change in packages we use. I am guessing I will have to do a 12.10 install to find out more... nap first :-)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-20
<len-1310> zequence, Re: menu overlay for all DEs. My hope is to be able to do all or at least most of our menu mods in one file for all DEs (including those we don't ship :)
<len-1310> However, There may be some things that end up being DE dependant, so we may still end up with a slightly non-standard menu for each DE as well.
<len-1310> I am thinking of the settings/system stuff. The different DEs handle these things differently and we end up with settings applets from more than one DE because of our workflow Apps.
<len-1310> zequence, anyway, I will build the generic overlay becasue it will be a good starting point for all the DEs. We can see what our menus look like with any custom menus turned off.
<len-1310> If the overlay is good enough then we can let the rest of the menu go as packaged.
<len-1310> xfce 4.12 may change the settings manager situation as well.
<Len-nb> zequence, looked at keeping a generic menu for studio... not much fun. I can add but not subtract where I have tried so far. 
<Len-nb> zequence, I can make a chunk that is pretty much generic and then the only editing we have to do to the DE menu file is to remove what we want to add.
<Len-nb> That way if there is editing of our menus that can be done in one place
<DarkEra> hi all
<zequence> DarkEra: hello
<zequence> len-1310: Ok, so if I've understood correctly, we can only add to a generic menu, but if we want to remove things, we need to do that for each menu separately?
<zequence> Great, got another week of work, so two weeks of teaching people about Linux
<zequence> ..money will go to a trip to Switzerland for the DebConf13 event
<zequence> len-1310: We'll be getting a new udev shortly, so let's see if that will change anything for us
<DarkEra> zequence, that sounds cool to me^^
<len-1310> zequence, I am still working on it. I seem to be able to put a very short menufile where our file is now. It has two lines that merge parent and merge our custom file (in that order)
<len-1310> The short file then can be linked to with whatever filename the DE expects.
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Nice one!!
<len-1310> hello smartboyhw_ 
<smartboyhw_> len-1310: Hey
<len-1310> Are you still doing studio K
<smartboyhw_> len-1310: Yep, but not before 14 June.
<smartboyhw_> EXAM
<len-1310> not a problem. 
<len-1310> smartboyhw_, can I fit a kubuntu on 20G?
<smartboyhw_> len-1310: Why not? It fits within 10G (or even 6GB)
<len-1310> Ok, I will see if it works on this box.
<len-1310> Grub is really annoying. A flavour nmae would be soooo helpful.
<smartboyhw_> len-1310: Heh
<len-1310> Which package is that script from? I guess it is part of grub2?
<zequence> Yeah, GRUB could use some more work on the menu
<len-1310> should be for all flavours though
<len-1310> Which package to bug?
<len-1310> grub is not installed...
<zequence> len-1310: grub2 maybe3
<zequence> maybe*
<len-1310> we have grub-pc-bin, and grub-common
<smartboyhw_> len-1310: grub2
<smartboyhw_> zequence: GRUB 3 hasn't been invented yet;P
<zequence> smartboyhw_: I was referring to the package maybe3, which could be anything maybe
<len-1310> There is no grub2 package
<zequence> sure there is
<zequence> It's a dummy package though
<len-1310> we don't install it.
<zequence> it depends on grub-pc and grub-common though
<zequence> you're right. We don't install the dummy package
<smartboyhw_> grub-pc then
<zequence> depends
<smartboyhw_> IWait
<zequence> depends on which one holds the grub config files
<zequence> grub2 is the source pacakge though
<zequence> so, I would just report it against grub2
<len-1310> I think it is grub-common.
<len-1310> It includes all the /etc/grub.d/* stuff
<len-1310> I will put a bug against that and maybe we can get lots of people to say this affects them.
<zequence> len-1310: I'd do it on grub 2, or at least make one for both
<zequence> and then make a duplicate of the bug
<len-1310> This may actually be a bug with the distro identification.
<zequence> Don't all distros have a way to ID the distro?
<zequence> Even if it's not the same, GRUB can do it
<zequence> But, I guess it might be nice if there was a standard for all Linux based
<len-1310> When it took the system info, the install medium has studio, but the distro is just ubuntu
<zequence> I'd think all Debian based has the same system
<zequence> Ah..
<zequence> Actually, I have Debian GRUB
<zequence> So, I'm not seeing the same stuff
<zequence> I just have kernel versions
<len-1310> Studio at least has a different kernel, but I have xubuntu and lubuntu and they look the same.
<zequence> I remember the distro by which order they come in, and which ARCH (almost every other is 32bit and 64bit)
<len-1310> I shouldn't have to do that and besides a new install changes the order :P
<zequence> So, we might need a new file for flavor ID
<zequence> Unless one wants the initial install to decide which flavor it is
<zequence> One can start out with netinstall, and then add whichever flavor. Also, add them all to one install
<len-1310> DistroRelease: Ubuntu 13.10
<zequence> All flavors are Ubuntu
<len-1310> That is probably a mistake.
<zequence> Why is that a mistake?
<len-1310> Bug #1182067
<ubottu> bug 1182067 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "The grub menu does not show ubuntu flavour" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1182067
<zequence> All flavors are Ubuntu. It's not a mistake
<len-1310> I think the flavour should be part of the name.
<zequence> All flavors can exist in paralell
<len-1310> That is why the flavour should be part of the name.
<zequence> So, should the GRUB menu name all of them?
<zequence> Ok, so the distro could then be: Ubuntu+Kubuntu+Lubuntu+Xubuntu.. etc
<smartboyhw> Well I only keep Ubuntu Studio in here:P
<len-1310> The system ditribution should have the flavour name
<zequence> Yes, but the system is the same
<zequence> We all have ubuntu-minimal
<zequence> We are all Ubuntu
<len-1310> Yes. but it is what is on top that makes them unique
<zequence> But, you can have them all at the same time
<zequence> So, how do you ID then?
<len-1310> by which flavour got there first?
<zequence> 15:36 < zequence> Unless one wants the initial install to decide which flavor it is
<zequence> We still need a new file for flavors
<zequence> And it might make little sense
<len-1310> That might be a problem if the initial install is mini.iso
<zequence> 15:37 < zequence> One can start out with netinstall, and then add whichever flavor. Also, add them all to one install
<zequence> Yes, it is problematic
<zequence> Perhaps there is some gui tool for making custom changes..
<zequence> I read about some not long ago
<zequence> I think maybe one could add an additional ID to the GRUB menu, not replacing Ubuntu, but adding to it, showing from which install medium one made the install
<len-1310> That is my thought.
<zequence> But, then you need a new file
<zequence> One which is only added by installers
<zequence> And only Ubuntu installers
<zequence> meaning, all the Ubuntu flavors
<len-1310> But that file has to be in a standrd place as grub by be reinstalled/configured from any partition.
<len-1310> s/by/may
<zequence> something like /etc/ubuntu_installer
<zequence> next problem - upgrades
<len-1310> May as well be in /etc/grub.d/
<zequence> Why? It has nothing to do with grub
<len-1310> upgrades should be from the same to the same flavour
<len-1310> ls
<len-1310> oops focus follows mind not installed
<zequence> Well, ok, the installer ID would not need to have the release version. Just the installer (not flavor)
<zequence> the mini.iso is not a flavor, until you add one
<zequence> So, you'd add the installer ID, not the flavor ID
<zequence> And from the mini.iso, you can add all flavors at once
<zequence> or, at least their desktop metas, which is not exactly the same thing
<zequence> A flavor is not much more than a custom set of preinstalled packages
<zequence> ..and settings
<zequence> The base system is the same
<len-1310> mini.iso could include in the setup stage a question of which flavour do you want to call this partition?
<len-1310> In fact ubiquity could too
<zequence> len-1310: I think in this case, the easiest solution is actually just a GRUB gui tool
<zequence> And you can make whatever changes you want
<zequence> And call your partition what you want
<len-1310> I would prefer to limit changes that are easy to make ...
<zequence> The flavor is a very loose term for a system, as it really just is a set of preinstalled packages. 
 * len-1310 has visions of too many unbootable systems
<zequence> Easy to make?
<len-1310> Partition label would be better
<len-1310> easy to make as can be made from a gui
<len-1310> Anyone can and will.
<len-1310> The gui should not be able to make changes that make the system not boot
<zequence> There is a gui tool already available
<len-1310> package?
<zequence> I haven't used. As I said, I've only read about one
<zequence> don't remember the name
<zequence> There used to be one for grub1 too
<zequence> Whenever there are system files that can be altered, you can create a gui tool to edit them
<zequence> And, it's up to you, the coder, how much freedom you give to the user for that gui tool
<len-1310> Ya, the question is do I want to... do I want to support the changes a regular user might make.
<zequence> I think the better question is: would it be useful or not
<len-1310> /etc/os-release has name and version on two lines. maybe the flavour could be part of the version.
<zequence> The problem again is that flavors are all the same OS
<len-1310> certainly there needs to be some way the user knows what partition is which at boot time.
<zequence> But, maybe if installing from the 
<zequence> ..nevermind
<len-1310> NAME="Ubuntu" VERSION="UbuntuSTudio 13.10, Saucy Salamander"
<len-1310> There is also ID=ubuntu
<zequence> Again, all flavors are the same OS
<zequence> They are just different flavors of it
<zequence> Should a meta package decide which OS it is?
<len-1310> But whatever way of doing things is used it has to be the same for all flavours
<len-1310> the meta can ask at install
<len-1310> In fact it should work with other distros like debian or slackware or redhat
<zequence> I think if you really think this is something you would like to see happen, discuss it on the ubuntu-devel-discuss list
<zequence> That way you should get some good feedback on the problem of identifying a flavor, and whether or not it is possible to do so
<len-1310> zequence, anyway, I will play with this stuff. Is there a more generic video driver than nouveau that might work with gnome?
<zequence> len-1310: The problem is not with the driver, I don't think. It's with your card
<zequence> It doesn't have the support needed
<zequence> If the card is too old, it just doesn't have the tech it needs
<len-1310> so if I user a driver that doesn't try will gnome fall back to use less?
<zequence> You certainly cannot put the flavor in a OS description file
<zequence> the OS is bascially ubuntu-minimal
<zequence> But, maybe you can add a file that lets you know which installer you used
<zequence> You can install XFCE, but not Xubuntu
<zequence> YOu can install Unity, but not Ubuntu
<zequence> You can install awesome as your DE
<zequence> And you can install all of them into one single system
<len-1310> The user probably doesn't want the name of their install to change just by adding a DE anyway.
<zequence> you mean, installer?
<zequence> I'm not going to tell users what they should want
<zequence> Also, one can remove packages
<zequence> One can purge a whole flavor, and add a new one
<len-1310> No I mean whatever GRUB calls that partition should not change just because I added another DE
<zequence> What GRUB calls the partition is a separate problem
<len-1310> That shold be set at install time (original install)
<zequence> First, you have to come up with a way to ID a flavor
<zequence> But, I'm saying you can't
<zequence> You can however decide to add a file that let's you know which installer you used
<len-1310> and only changed by the user.
<len-1310> That would be an upstream grub thing I think.
<zequence> upstream GRUB, to add something to look up Ubuntu flavors?
<zequence> If you don't believe me, just put out the question on ubuntu-devel-discuss list
<zequence> I'm sure you'll get very similar answers
<len-1310> not ubuntu flavours, but partition ID.
<len-1310> It could be used in any distro
<len-1310> not just ubuntu
<len-1310> Whatever the solution, user experience when faced with 2 or more grub selections all named the same thing is not good.
<len-k> Hmm, Kubuntu works fine with my "old" video card.
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<len-k> hello
<madeinkobaia> Hi len-k :)
<zequence> KDE4 doesn't require a newer card
<len-k> Ya... I am not sure why gnome3 should either.
<zequence> len-k: gnome-shell does, and it's because it is based on more modern tech than you find in older graphic card
<zequence> It's just a sign of you needing to buy a new one
<zequence> Things evolve
<len-k> So why is there no reasonable fall back?
<zequence> There are things you simply can't do with old technology
<len-k> Churn is bad. I have a working card why should I replace it?
<zequence> Just like dropping support for i386
<zequence> Or, no
<len-k> 1386 is a lot older.
<len-k> even a P1 is still ok.
<len-k> (not sure about 486)
<zequence> At some point, you want to take the next step in graphics. Computer games does this at a much faster rate than DEs
<zequence> But, it's basically the same problem
<zequence> Users need to have technology that supports the changes
<len-k> A DE should not be based on games.
<zequence> At this point, anything not older than 5 years should support it
<len-k> Thats like brand new.
<zequence> Who said it should?
<len-k> that what what your comment above sugested
<zequence> Many graphic cards don't even survive that long
<zequence> no, it didn't
<len-k> Lots do too.
<len-k> I have an S3 that is still fine.
<zequence> len-k: Tell me, how well do flash videos play on your card?
<len-k> Seem to be ok.
<zequence> len-k: no stuttering at all?
<zequence> len-k: At which resolution?
<len-k> Depends what the rest of the system is doing.
<zequence> I'm guessing performance is not very good
<len-k> Not sure. The same as the DVD player works at.
<zequence> the general desktop usage needs are above what you have, no matter which DE
<zequence> There are DEs for lower performance needs
<zequence> Gnome3 is not designed for that
<len-k> That is not a valid assumption
<len-k> Anyway, this idealogical differences. You think one way and I another.
<zequence> If your computer is 10 years old, don't assume the newest stuff should work on it
<len-k> The DE should
<zequence> It's not my opinion
<len-k> Applications is another thing.
<zequence> It's the opinion of the DE designers
<zequence> Your opinion is not what decides the opinion of the DE designers
<len-k> Yup that is true.
<zequence> Like I said, there are DEs that support older machines better
<len-k> everything but gnome 3 it seems
<zequence> gnome-shell
<zequence> And Unity with desktop effects
<len-k> Ok
<zequence> And everything else that is quite new
<len-k> unity works OOTB
<len-k> KDE works OOTB
<len-k> KDE is even reasonably fast
<zequence> KDE is pretty old in comparison
<zequence> And I wouldn't think anything is fast on your machine
<zequence> Maybe awesome
<len-k> I am sure there are some things that are really snappy, but both xfce and lxde (what lubuntu uses) are not noticably slow.
<len-k> Even kde for that matter.
<len-k> Not slower than my 2 year old machine anyway.
<zequence> right..
<len-k> The 2 yearold machine does handle videos better but the desktop experience is the same 
<len-k> That is the gpu, some things run faster on the 10 year old machine than the 2 year old.
<zequence> Look, you obviously think that everyone should design their stuff so they work on your machine
<zequence> And suit your life style
<zequence> I'm not saying everything other people do (DE designers, Canonical devs, or me, or you) is smart
<zequence> But there are reasons for everything
<zequence> A lot of people make the assumption that what they do is the normal thing
<zequence> When a many enough do that, then perhaps it is
<len-k> There have in the past, been many people who looked for older machines to run linux on. I know lots of people still using older HW than what I have even.
<zequence> Sure, and there are alternatives for them
<len-k> Perhaps that is changing and linux has got to the point people buy new machine just to install that more often. 
<zequence> Gnome3, Unity, or even KDE(while it is now older), were not designed for them in mind. They do however not take bigger leaps than the main stream user can handle
<len-k> This is still a time of growth, many new things are happening.
<zequence> I'm sure there are differences in what kind of machines the main stream user uses in differenc countries
<len-k> The use of linux on older equipment is narrowing as the linux community  expands.
<len-k> probably the group of people that use older machine is pretty stagnent in size and may be even shrinking.
<len-k>  Obviously the percentage has shrunk a lot.
<len-k> In my case I don't have the funds to buy new machines all the time. I have to use what I have.
<zequence> computers seem to be a bit cheaper today then they were 10 years ago. graphic cards are at least
<len-k> Ya, but I don't have a PCIe slot
<len-k> I have one of those graphics only things
<zequence> New MBs don't even have IDE anymore
<zequence> Or, many of them
<len-k> Ya I know and those that do have problems with them
<zequence> That just means you have to upgrade the whole machine
<len-k> I don't have IDE
<zequence> And is a sign of yours being pretty old
<len-k> Can't
<len-k> But most don't even have PCI which I think is what you meant
<zequence> I think there are adapters though, but not sure how those work
<len-k> Upgrading means 1k plus pretty much
<zequence> PCI is still fairly common, but you usually only get one or two slots
<zequence> The MB I have doesn't have IDE at all. Only SATA
<len-k> I have sata
<len-k> but I do also have ide
<zequence> And only one PS/2 hybrid mouse and keyboard connector
<len-k> I use the ide for dvd only
<zequence> The rest is usb2, usb3, eSata, HDMI, etc
<len-k> Can't get ide drives anyway.
<zequence> The problem I had was I couldn't connect my DVD drive to it
<zequence> So, I don't have one at all
<zequence> They are also SATA nowadays
<zequence> But, I wasn't too interested in buying a new one, even if they are cheap
<zequence> Or, BluRay, as they are now
<len-k> If I go to a PCIe only board I need new audio IF as well. To get anything worth while  would cost more than the rest of the upgrade.
<zequence> There are plenty of boards with PCI
<zequence> I don't think that will disappear as quickly
<len-k> And LAU is full of people who have bought one and can't get their PCI card to work
<len-k> 5 or 6 any way in the last 5 or 6 months
<len-k> If I upgrade though, it is likely to be a machine for the DE and leave the audio stuff on this one.
<len-k> At least till I can get a new audio IF
<zequence> coincidentally, someone just asked about /etc/os-release on #ubuntu-devel
<zequence> and suggesting it should contain the flavor
<len-k> I have a wife going to school and special needs kids one with a diet that costs lots.. hopefully my wife will be working next year.
<len-k> That is probably as a result of my bug report.
<zequence> the answer from riddel, just as from myself is: they are all the same OS
 * len-k is trying out rekonq
<len-k> Yes but diffent versions
<len-k> but really that doesn't matter
<len-k> the script that makes up the GRUB menu sho8uld ensure unique entries by some method even if just adding the partition number
<zequence> The concept of flavors is not universal. The way flavors work in Ubuntu, is just local to Ubuntu
<len-k> As I said it doesn't matter
<zequence> And, it's not identifyable from the system
<zequence> The OS is the same for all. The OS is ubuntu-minimal
<len-k> It could be. But that doesn't matter there needs to be some way in grub of the user being able to identify what partition is which
<zequence> If you add multiple OSs the smart thing to do is to not install GRUB in the MBR for more than one OS
<len-k> Like I said if the flavour is not able to be used then at least the partition number should be there
<zequence> In which case, the GRUB is generated from one install only
<len-k> Then why have grub at all? it spurpose is to be able to load more than one partition worth  of OS
<zequence> There's only one MBR
<len-k> That can cause problems too.
<zequence> each time you update a kernel, grub updates the list
<zequence> It looks through all the partitions
<zequence> Not sure when MBR is updated. At least when grub is updated, but probably also when kernels are updated
<len-k> Yes. I know and the order in grub might change because of it
<zequence> That means, each time you update the MBR, it changes to the GRUB that is in the install you are using right then
<len-k> Yup
<zequence> And each distro has their own GRUB
<len-k> So the answer is to have a grub that can update it self.
<zequence> so, the GRUB changes each time you update a distro
<zequence> When you update Debian, it'll be the Debian GRUB
<zequence> When you update Ubuntu, it'll change to the Ubuntu GRUB
<len-k> Yup
<zequence> And each have their own system
<zequence> It's not the same package
<zequence> It's not the same configuration
<zequence> Which is why, I find it much less disorientating to just keep one GRUB in the MBR
<len-k> A grub that takes care of itself that can be linked to from each OS would be great , but it is not something we have
<zequence> In my case, Debian. So, each time I need to update the entries, I need to do that from Debian
<zequence> nope
<len-k> That is fine for the user who understands the system.
<zequence> If you install OSs, it's pretty good if you understand what happens when you do that
<zequence> Otherwise, get it preinstalled
<len-k> :)
<len-k>  That does not seem to be the way Ubuntu thinks
<len-k> kubuntu's version of ubiquity looks nice
<len-k> One thing I do agree with though is that Ubuntu's focus is on new equipment.
<len-k> I find that reasonable.
<len-k> kubuntu's installer on the time zone screen does let the user set a different region from the time zone.
<len-k> I wonder if that is the same on the rest.
<len-k> KDE (kubunu 13.10) does not seem signifcantly slower than xfce (Xubuntu/UbuntuStudio)
<zequence> Finally getting my pulseaudio code fix in order, so I can request merges, etc
<zequence> I started a new PPA for us. Before uploading to it, please talk to me first ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-sru-testing
<zequence> For now, it contains the fixed pulseaudio packages for precise and quantal
<len-k> Ok, the only thing I might use it for is -settings packages
<zequence> len-k: It's only for SRUs
<zequence> len-k: The existing PPA is meant for development release packages 
<len-k> Ah. ok... Ya I should read first
<len-k> It is plainly obvous
<zequence> len-k: I'l enable autobuilds for all our sources for that PPA
<zequence> This one https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/devel
<zequence> len-k: Recipy created for default-settings https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+recipe/ubuntustudio-default-settings-daily
<len-k> Ok. Does that mean every time I push, or will I have to do some action
<zequence> It builds daily now
<len-k> Ah. great.
<zequence> But, one can request a build directly too
<zequence> However, you never know when the build will start
<len-k> Daily is enough
<zequence> Sometimes right away, sometimes it takes days even
<len-k> I test stuff on my machine(s) before pushing.
<len-k> I would use it for other people to test
<len-k> Re DEs: I am assuming that there would be a session for each DE
<len-k> Would they be like Studio-G, Studio-K and Studio-X or would you just let the DE name fall through
<zequence> you mean, in sessions for each DE in settings?
<zequence> I haven't yet looked at all at the settings package regarding these things
<zequence> What I mean to ask was: sessions for each DE in settings?
<zequence> I also enabled the auto build for our metas
<len-k> Well where the stuff ends up doesn't matter, I was asking more about how you would present it to the user
<len-k> What would the login screen look like to the user
<zequence> That depends on which meta you install
<zequence> Oh, you mean the look of it, stuff in the background, and so on?
<len-k> Assume more than one
<zequence> len-k: You ever tried installing more than one?
<len-k> No I mean the session dropdown menu
<zequence> these are all details that I think we'll get to once we will get to I think
<zequence> But, I think for those: ubuntustudio-kde, ubuntustudio-gnome, etc
<len-k> Ok that was what I meant
<len-k> The default would be kde, gnome etc. In the same way we have xfce as well as ubuntustudio
<zequence> would be good to get XFCE removed I think
<len-k> Actually we should be able to remove xfce
<zequence> Does Xubuntu have it?
<len-k> Same thought at the same time...
<zequence> Yeah :)
<len-k> kubuntu doesn't
<zequence> We'll need to add more sources probably too
<len-k> Not sure what you mean
<zequence> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme
<zequence> Would be kind of cool if we could use the same lightdm for all the desktops
<zequence> But, I suppose KDE installs its own too?
<len-k> Quassel pops up a window of the webpage when I hoover over the link you put down..
<len-k> kubuntu does.
<len-k> but I don't know that KDE does
<len-k> lightdm tries to use the user's backdrop once they are selected
<zequence> There's lightdm-kde-greeter
 * len-k could use KDE as a DE for Studio very comfortably
<len-k> Ya, but that is just the default.
<len-k> (backdrop)
<len-k> I think the backdrop is all that would change though.
<len-k> Would we use the same backdrop for all the DEs?
<zequence> Wonder if it's possible to use the regular lightdm with all of the DEs.
<zequence> Well, of course it should
<zequence> But, is that what the user would expect
<zequence> If you install a Ubuntu Studio Unity, then you might want the unity greeter
<len-k> Why not?
<len-k> unity uses lightdm right now.
<zequence> Same with Gnome, and GDM
<zequence> If we could have our own snappy look at the login screen, I think it would do for all DEs
<len-k> the DM and the DE are two things
<zequence> Right now, it's a little low tech looking
<zequence> Something like the unity greeter, but with our own artwork
<zequence> ..would be nice, I think
<len-k> I think all the DMs for the ubuntu flavours are lightdm
<zequence> Not Ubuntu Gnome
<zequence> Or, you can choose between lightdm and gdm
<len-k> So we should be able to copy and change the backdrop and colours
<len-k> UG could use lightdm
<len-k> What matters is that it looks nice
<len-k> How  much has GDM changed in the past few years?
<len-k> I havn't used it for three or four.
<zequence> Quite a lot actually
<zequence> The login view is very much adapted for Tablets
<zequence> Lubuntu is using the Unity greeter
<len-k> I think taking the unity version and adapting it would not be out of place
<len-k> Being ubuntu flavours and all
<len-k> At least it gives a reason for the choice
 * len-k has been watching youtube for a half hour or so with no video hics
<zequence> What resolution on your screen, and what resolution on the videos?
<zequence> I think one needs to fork the unity-greeter
<zequence> At least to do some of the changes
<zequence> Or, we make the lightdm-gtk-greeter look more slick
<zequence> Len-nb: At this point, with no changes at all to any of the greeters, I think lightdm-gtk-greeter is the correct choice if one wants to have one for all DEs
<Len-nb> Right
<zequence> We don't really need to do anything to it. Just keep it as it is
<zequence> ..if I'm not missing something
<Len-nb> My Inet bounced a few times
<Len-nb> Can do. The unity one has user pictures... I don't think ours does
<Len-nb> If someone "wants" Unity they might like features like that
<zequence> No, it does change wallpapers after users choice
<zequence> It's what we have now
<Len-nb> Personally, I like it just fine as is. I don't think US is going to get installed on tablets
<zequence> I will be using the phone for audio myself
<zequence> And I know plenty of people who will too
<zequence> So, it's definately not something that I'm going to neglect
<zequence> There are plenty of uses for both phones and tablets as far as multimedia goes
<Len-nb> The only time a user would notice the change of wallpaper is if they change it
<zequence> But, the lightdm-gtk-greeter would leave us with least amount of work
<Len-nb> I stand corrected
<Len-nb> GDM is an easy install though.
<Len-nb> Actually, I think gnome installs it by default anyway
<Len-nb> The install asks what you want to default to
<Len-nb> zequence, Are you still expecting to leave xfce in as default?
<Len-nb> and what does that mean?
<Len-nb> Would xfce be installed even if another DE was installed?
<zequence> Len-nb: Until anything is decided otherwise, our XFCE based DE will be default, yes
<zequence> that means, for now, the installer install that DE
<Len-nb> Or would it just be on the ISO, but not installed unless the user asked to?
<Len-nb> OK
<zequence> Once we work on the ISO, either we put all DEs on the ISO, or some are only installable if you have internet. XFCE will always be on the ISO
<zequence> And it will be the default choice when doing the install, if having choices
<zequence> Either the user will be only able to mark one DE to be installed, or as many as the user likes. In either case, XFCE will be marked beforehand
<Len-nb> We know xfce works, so that is good.
<Len-nb> I mean with our set up
<zequence> Let's not get ahead of ourselves
<zequence> We first need to create the metas
<Len-nb> obviously the other DEs work too.
<zequence> Then work on the installer
<zequence> Right now, the Gnome DE is not even runnable
<Len-nb> Ya, the install can even be after install for now
<Len-nb> Maybe that was my problem then
<Len-nb> I need to get the bios working on this machine so I can test in it.
<Len-nb> Graphics are "fully" supported
<zequence> Yes, the netbook should work
<zequence> What's the problem with the bios?
<Len-nb> LSC is a lot faster than USC. But it doesn't take search stuff on CLi
<Len-nb> the bios has forgotten it has a screen
<Len-nb> known problem with the acers
<Len-nb> The fix for first gen doesn't seem to work with second gen
<Len-nb> It works fine with an external screen... so to boot I have to put a load on the green channel of the vga so it thinks there is a monitor
<Len-nb> once x runs it sees the internal screen so long as there is an external
<Len-nb> I can't see the bootscreen without an external monitor though.
<zequence> Maybe if you can get access to the entire set of commands, bios pages, etc, then you can try flying blind :)
<zequence> Someone would need to post some pics, or at least lists of the choices and so on
<Len-nb> There is supposed to be a sequence of KB commands that makes a USB stick with the bios reload.
<Len-nb> but the lights don't flash, so they must have changed the KB sequence.
<Len-nb> the file itself may need to be a different name too.
<Len-nb> It is something to do with the power manager on the MB not doing a proper shutdown until the voltage is too low from the battery.
<zequence> got owncloud installed on a webhost, but not all the controls seem to work
<zequence> I was hoping you could add more users
<zequence> I'll be setting up at least one computer for owncloud usage for my mom and some other people
<zequence> Maybe not the absolutely most reliable back-up solution, but a very simple one to set up
<DarkEra> zequence, still a no go with Gnome?
<zequence> DarkEra: I haven't checked actually
<zequence> Let me do an update
<DarkEra> ah, ok :)
<zequence> hmm, what's ubuntu-release-upgrader-gtk?
<zequence> I guess an addition to the update manager
<zequence> anyway, there were some updated packages
<DarkEra> the upgrader, according to synaptic's description, is the GTK+ frontend of the Ubuntu Release Upgrader. So i guess you could be right
<zequence> DarkEra: seems not working still
<DarkEra> too bad. Then we'll have to wait some more i guess
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-21
<smartboyhw_> len-k: How's Kubuntu?
<madeinkobaia> Hi all. 
<len-k> hello
<madeinkobaia> Hi len-k. I just heard that Ray Manzarek left the place.
<len-k> ok... I have trouble putting names with nicks etc.
<len-k> sorry
<madeinkobaia> len-k : No problems : )
<len-k> So the name rings a bell, but I can't place it.
<madeinkobaia> len-k : The keyboard player from The Doors.
<len-k> Ah, so as in left the place you mean like earth?
<len-k> I haven't heard about the doors in a long time.
<madeinkobaia> len-k : Sort of, he will not play keyboard until his next re-incarnation I think.
<len-k> I think Mr Lord played pretty close till his death (deep purple)
<madeinkobaia> len-k : Indeed
<zequence> pulseaudio fix is merged, but yet not uploaded to the -proposed repo
<len-k> zequence: I am looking at kubuntu. The menu has tabs. One of which is the applications menu. It would be really nice if we could break that tab into two tabs. One for desktop applications and one for studio applications.
<len-k> I am also realizing that a KDE based Studio should use the KDE versions of things. 
<len-k> (gnome would be the same)
<len-k> I am talking about things like terminal, PA control, software updater, etc.
<len-k> Even web browser could be.
<zequence> len-k: KDE is probably the most different from the rest. Seems like there's a K version for just about everything
<zequence> I was thinking about this before
<zequence> If keeping all DEs on the ISO, it might save some space if sharing some applications between if not all, then most of the DEs
<len-k> I was thinking about it when I used the terminal and thinking that it would need to be different in the kde version
<len-k> I think I want to use the stock menu for each DE as much as possible.
<len-k> Settings things will need to be DE matched.
<len-k> zequence: lsc (lubuntu or light SW center) is a lot quicker than USC.
<len-k> It still needs work though.
<len-k> xubuntu is thinking of using it if
<len-k> I think we should start a thread on the mailing list about common apps for all DEs and separate.
<zequence> I personally would like to get some working metas going first. Do tests with the mini.iso, and install the DEs and see what is working or not first
<zequence> Then start to work on package selection
<zequence> I'd like to see what the problems are
<madeinkobaia> For those who're still on board,  ahoy !
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw : )
<smartboyhw> Hi madeinkobaia, I got a surprise holiday today, a Black Rainstorm Warning and all students are banned for school
<smartboyhw> Well, I can at least do a lot of listening papers then for the English Listening Exam tmr.
<smartboyhw> And the Chinese one on Friday
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : I will check what is a "black rainstorm" ; )
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Damn seems terrific, no problems by your side ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Safe @ home.
<smartboyhw> madeinkkbaia: Basically, it means hourly rainfall is more than 70mm
<smartboyhw> And this time, over 100
<smartboyhw> â¦ The first Black Rainstorm Warning in THREE years
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Damn. 
<smartboyhw> yeahâ¦
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : How is the weather context now ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Bad with thunderstorms and lightning.
<zequence> damn, my HD is starting to sound like a purring cat
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : No words, just taking care of your self and family, can't do nothing more in that context : (
<smartboyhw> Heh
<zequence> We had lightning and heavy rain today too
<smartboyhw> No worries
<zequence> But, nothing like that
<smartboyhw> zequence: Oh really?
<zequence> The lightning was really close. Sounded like someone was blowing something up just a few hundred meters away
<zequence> Didn't sound like regular lightning. No big thunder
<zequence> Because it was so close
<zequence> Then some refreshing rain
<smartboyhw> I can actually see lightningâ¦
<len-k> smartboyhw: how much do you know about kde?
<smartboyhw> len-k: In what aspects?
<madeinkobaia> "When the still sea comspires an armor and her sullen and aborted currents breeds tiny monsters..."
<len-k> the K button in the lower left... it opens a box with 5 tabs. Can I add another tab?
<smartboyhw> len-k: I think so.
<smartboyhw> It's just code:P
<len-k> I was thinking it would be nice to have another menu tab just for studio stuff
<len-k> I just have to find the config for it I guess
<smartboyhw> Should be kde-workspace or something, but let me check with the official Kubuntu devsâ¦
<len-k> smartboyhw: what is the minimal system a KDE user would expect?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-22
<len-k> The launcher is called kickoff
<smartboyhw> len-k: A whole working interfaceâ¦
<smartboyhw> len-k: The tabs config are stored in kubuntu-settings
<len-k> Interesting, KDE has this thing called "activities"
<len-k> I haven't found a desktop switcher yet... thought that might be similar.
<len-k> smartboyhw: KDE can look may different ways. I am wondering what a Studio user would consider the right or normal way.
<len-k> We can't deal with the KDE menu in the same way as we have the xfce menu.
<len-k> Waht I have on my desk right now almost (not quite) reminds me of gnome shell
<len-k> Kde has 6 ways of viewing the menu. Whatever we do with the menu needs to work with any of them.
<len-k> I think this means simplifying what we do to modify the menu.
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : How are you today, no problems with the weather ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: No.
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Ok fine : )
<DarkEra> good afternoon everybody
<madeinkobaia> Hi all, I finalize designs for our webshop. I propose to add a unique reference to all our derivatives. I propose as reference "usmp + number" (usmp for "ubuntu studio merchandising product"). 
<madeinkobaia> zequence : ^
<madeinkobaia> Any feedback is welcome : )
<DarkEra> too bad the discussion started on the mailinglist about the DE's project turned into a discussion about a possible bug
<madeinkobaia> Hi darkera, ok.
<DarkEra> heya madeinkobaia :)
<DarkEra> how are you doing?
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Well fine, we will have brand new t-shirts who skills : )
<DarkEra> awesome 
<DarkEra> and good you're doing fine ;)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : It will be finished tomorrow I think.
<DarkEra> cool, i'm looking forward to it
<madeinkobaia> darkera : :)
<zequence> madeinkobaia: In the bzr branch? I'll have a look
<madeinkobaia> zequence : It is not yet in the branch, it will be tomorrow. 
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Oh, ok. Anyway to see the results now?
<madeinkobaia> zequence : What about the reference number (see above) ?
<zequence> madeinkobaia: And, about organization, feel free to implement any you think is sufficient
<zequence> Since we have near zero organization on artwork at the moment, anything above that would just be an improvement
<madeinkobaia> zequence : I ask because I want to write it below each version.
<zequence> Besides, I think only you have professional experience in administering artwork
<zequence> So, go ahead :)
<madeinkobaia> zequence : Thanks for appreciate : )
<zequence> Because of our small team, I suppose it is always smart to keep things as simple as possible, but I don't always follow that myself
<zequence> they released hurd for Debian http://bits.debian.org/2013/05/debian-gnu-hurd-wheezy.html
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-23
<len-k> zequence: I see why  most discusions end up here.
<zequence> len-k: What do you mean?
<len-k> I was refering to the mail list.
<len-k> aside from that...
<len-k> zequence: what is your feeling on HURD?
<len-k> Does it look better for audio?
<zequence> Oh, no idea :)
<zequence> From what I've read, it's more advanced the Linux, which is why it's taking so long to develop, among other things
<zequence> Linux these days of course has an army of developers, while Hurd has only a few
<zequence> It was supposed to be the GNU kernel, but then came along Linux
<len-k> Ya,
<zequence> I guess they've been developing it now for more than 20 years
<zequence> I just think it's nice that it's getting usable
<zequence> It said something about 70% of applications had been ported now
<zequence> for Debian
<zequence> But, I don't know about drivers
<zequence> I think I read about them using Linux drivers, but not sure
<len-k> It seems that a "microkernel" on it's own core might do good for low latency work.
<zequence> It'll be interesting to try it out. Haven't taken the opportunity to do that yet
<zequence> len-k: I think it's good if we do more discussion on the mail list. That would allow for readers who don't come here to become aware of what we are doing
<zequence> I'm always thinking I will do this, but I rarely do
<len-k> Ok, I will think some more. We are off to eat now. Talk later
<zequence> Ahh, I should really choose my words more carefully sometimes.
<zequence> DarkEra: New updates for Gnome, and else. Will see if they make a difference
<zequence> nope, doesn't seem like it works
<zequence> As soon as you do something in gnome-shell, like click on activities or click on the calendar, it just freezes
<DarkEra> zequence, ok, thanks for the update. Too bad it still doesn't work yet
<DarkEra> zequence, well, i gave it a try on my netbook for fun. I even can't get logged in, keyboard and mouse cursor do nothing at all just like in VB
<DarkEra> it was worth a try
<zequence> DarkEra: Yeah. I was hoping someone could shine a light on the problem
<zequence> I haven't looked for a bug report yet
<DarkEra> didn't have the time either to look after one but was thinking about it though.
<len-k> zequence: I think that adding new DEs is a good excercise. I think we should try as much as possible to make each DE "shine" as a creation environment in it's uniquness. Not just add DEs to say you can use any DE.
<len-k> As I said in my email, it may be that a DE will express one kind of work flow better than other DEs and we may find people who use different workflows use different DEs for that reason.
<zequence> I'm sure we learn something by doing it anyway. Also, having a agnostic relationship with the DEs should make more users comfortable
<len-k> It may also help us find and solve more bugs
<zequence> sure
<zequence> I was thinking it might be a good idea to put out some example tasks for people on the mail list later
<zequence> Like, going through all the application in a list, and look for bugs, or let us know if they already know of some
<zequence> Make sure people report them, if they haven't been reported
<zequence> Finally, see if upstream already has fixes
<zequence> if not, report them there as well
<len-k> I think for testing we need to be able to install all DE metas on one machine/partition and login to different DE sessions.
<zequence> It's better not to have more than one DE installed at the time though
<zequence> Otherwise, you might not see errors in package selection and stuff like that
<zequence> One good method is installing ubuntu-minimal on a virtual machine. Take a shapshot. Then add a PPA with the metas, and install one at the time
<len-k> I would not like to do five installs to test one image... but I can't not agree :P
<len-k> Also, the settings for unity, gnomeshell and cinnamon might collide.
<zequence> Yea
<len-k> Same with xfce/lxde
<len-k> At the very most it would have to be tested as a user per DE.
<len-k> s/most/least ?
<zequence> the pulseaudio fix just got uploaded
<zequence> len-k: You want to know a cool command? rmadison <package>
<zequence> It checks for all the supported versions of the package in all existing Ubuntu releases, and all the pockets too
<len-k> in devscripts.
 * len-k needs a script to add all of these things every time he does an install
<zequence> Ah, yeah
<zequence> I've been meaning to add that to our dev docs
<zequence> Ubuntu has the package ubuntu-dev-tools
<zequence> That's a good start, I suppose
<zequence> There's really a lot that is useful, in some situations, so the list can easily be grown
<zequence> PA was uploaded, but yet not built I think
<zequence> I'll have a go at testing it tomorrow
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-24
<zequence> Too bad. I think we've had at least five people come by here the last month wanting to help
<zequence> None of them stick around after the first introduction
<zequence> Either there's something really unpleasent with coming by here, or people get scared of actually having to do something
<holstein> or they dont know what to do
<Len-nb> hang around and listen anyway.... it's what I did
<holstein> they might come back.. or prefer the mailing list
<zequence> holstein: Each time, I told them what to do, and stick around
<holstein> some folks dont like to hang on the IRC
<zequence> Well, if they say they will, than I would assume that was their plan
<holstein> in my local LUG, theres about 30 folks who come on and off
<holstein> about 3 of those are in or on IRC
<holstein> about 6 or 8 have said "im going to come and stick around in the IRC"
<holstein> they dont ;)
<zequence> If the person goes "great, tell me what to do. Ok, nice. I'll keep logged into this channel"..
<zequence> It's not a misunderstanding on my part anyway
<TheDrums> http://workaround.org/getting-help-on-irc is typically good, but a few of the things aren't quite in line with how we do it.
<zequence> That's ok for user support, but it's a little different when it comes to geting people involved in development
<zequence> And it is hard to know what to expect when you come here, for sure
<TheDrums> Hrm, wrong topic.
<zequence> If you don't have previous experience, you probably don't have a clue, and that's file
<zequence> fine*
<zequence> That's why I've been preparing documentation
<zequence> Like this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupDeveloperEnvironment
<zequence> But, the problem is, some people find even that one page to be this huge amount of text to read, so I think people are just not prepared to do that
<zequence> anyway, it's really tough to find people
<zequence> as it seems
<zequence> Luke on the mail list seemed interested to start doing something, so that was positive
<holstein> im going to stay off the mailing list
<zequence> holstein: Why so?
<holstein> ralph pushes my buttons... and then i misread things with my annoyed hat on tightly
<zequence> :)
<zequence> as long as someone is not clearly misinforming people, which happens, I try not to bother
<holstein> yup
<holstein> i'll take a break again, and i'll be cool
<zequence> I get much too easily irritated myself. It's a real problem
<holstein> im getting that way
<holstein> im just too busy
<holstein> it'll thin out a bit soon.. or at least get more "normal" and routine
<TheDrums> I'm on x-dev and it seems pretty good, but I still never send to it.
<zequence> holstein: What kind of gigs do you have now?
<holstein> zequence: the one o have coming up is 8 shows a week
<holstein> the one i*
<holstein> plus, my other normal stuff
<zequence> TheDrums: I've seen your nick here for a good while. Are you interested in helping out with Ubuntu Studio development?
<holstein> i'll probably be playing 10 shows a week for about 11 weeks coming up
<zequence> holstein: Theater?
<holstein> zequence: yup :/
<TheDrums> zequence: Sorry, but not all that much, I"m Unit193 of Xubuntu.
<zequence> TheDrums: Ahaa
<holstein> plus, i have a tech thing im taking on 2 days a week
<holstein> not sure what
<TheDrums> (And #ubuntustudio)
<holstein> i think just helping folks..
<zequence> TheDrums: Why the double identities?
<holstein> TheDrums: i dont think i realized that..
<zequence> TheDrums: irc alerts?
<TheDrums> zequence: This is my alternick, to split up channels a bit.  I follow everything with the other, and this is for scrollback.
<zequence> ok
<zequence> holstein: You're getting to be a real veteran in the theater music business now then
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> right?!
<zequence> You only started with that about a year ago, or something, was it?
<holstein> yup.. 2 shows last summer too
<TheDrums> holstein: (You mean the cloak didn't give it away?)
<holstein> TheDrums: i never claimed to be observant
<TheDrums> zequence: Though, what do you happen to need help with right now?
<zequence> TheDrums: Nothing critical, if that is what you mean :). But, there are definately all kinds of areas that would need attention. 
<zequence> User documentation, both written and videos. We have nothing there
<zequence> A full inventory on the applications that are avilable for our workflows (probably one person would only like to do one of the workflows), and see if we are shipping the right stuff
<zequence> Also, make sure the applications are fully functional and not lacking in the way they were built or packaged
<zequence> That's something that Debian folks might not be fully on top, as some of them are packaging ridiculous amounts of applications
<zequence> I should just write a list of these things, and post on the mail list soonish
<zequence> Or, better yet, first ask for ideas on what we need done - adding the things I'm aware of (and things that are in progress already)
<zequence> I'm slowly realizing that in order for people to get a picture of how they can help, giving them concrete tasks is probably the best first step
<zequence> Insight in the fringes of Ubuntu flavor development probably comes later
<TheDrums> Aha, I see.  What doc format are you using?
<zequence> TheDrums: So far, this is all that exists, and I'm sure I'd come back to it if I felt I had the time https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide
<zequence> The idea is that it should be focused more on our workflows, rather than desktop usage
<zequence> Naturally, we need a section about installation and hardware support
<zequence> As for hardware support, that is also a bit special, since we should provide links and information to all hardware that deals with multimedia
<zequence> The user guide, as far as using goes, should only be introductional
<zequence> Then, provide links to other places of information, where there are manuals for things, etc
<zequence> Actually, my idea is that Ubuntu Studio should offer information on all sorts of sites and forums that deal with Linux multimedia
<zequence> So, that people who come to the Linux multimedia world, and often using Ubuntu Studio, may have a way to get in touch with the whole Linux multimedia community
<zequence> Videos are probably better as usage introduction for a lot of things though
<zequence> I'm preparing a youtube channel. More on that later
<TheDrums> I'd assume you've seen docs.xubuntu.org, I personally don't do a lot of multimedia, at least not in the form that US is made for.
<zequence> TheDrums: Yes. But, that is more in the line of regular desktop usage, which is something we can just redirect our users to, not matter which DE they use. If XFCE, the Xubuntu docs are good
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<OvenWerks> zequence: just in case you missed it... I be Len. I have gone to irssi running in screen.
<OvenWerks> madeinkobaia: Hi :)
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks : Hi Len :)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ah, you're running a server now then
<zequence> That's how I'm doing it too
<holstein> DarkEra: if ive learned anything from the support channels, its "assume nothing"
<holstein> DarkEra: i dont remember that guy at all... but we are on the right track now
<holstein> or at least, a lot better
<DarkEra> that's what i learned too right now ;)
<DarkEra> his previous nick doesn't really ring a bell
<holstein> could have been months ago.. who knows
<holstein> the intel stuff is usually well supported, so its probably just a matter of using the proper tool for dual head
<holstein> to configure dual head
<holstein> of course, i dont know why installing 12.04 isnt an option
<holstein> i dont like it when folks dont seem eager to try suggestions
<DarkEra> yep, if i knew it was intel i would have suggested using Arandr$
<holstein> if dreamstudio worked, i would run it live at least, and look and see what is supporting the hardware
<holstein> i would have no problem doing an install of it and looking
<holstein> folks seem like installing is such a big deal
<holstein> i can reinstall in like 20 minutes...
<holstein> anyways, i dont think it'll be a big deal
<holstein> i was thinking more about the nvidia xorg.conf's that get made
<DarkEra> depending on the hardware yes, i can install in 10 to 15 minutes
<DarkEra> his rebooting and getting back online takes a while so i guess it's a older machine
<holstein> you literally never know.. even that could have been a mis-communication
<DarkEra> hmmm... true
<holstein> well, nothing kills the vibe like talking about where hardware support should come from ;)
<OvenWerks> holstein: quite honestly we do have a less than good way of dealing with dual monitors.
<OvenWerks> xfce 4.12 coming out real soon now, is supposed to fix a lot of that
<OvenWerks> We should be able to remove arandr. and the settings sholod be saved from boot to boot.
<OvenWerks> *should
<OvenWerks> I think if dual monitors works right OOTB, more people will just use the free drivers because that will do what needs to be done.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-25
<holstein> OvenWerks: i hope so
<OvenWerks> holstein: dual monitors has been one of the missing links in our distro. Arandr has always been a temporary solution.
<OvenWerks> At least I knew that :)
<holstein> in xfce, it seems
<OvenWerks> Ya, but at the time even in unity.
<OvenWerks> I am still not completely happy with what unity does either, but it is more usable
<holstein> well, it works
<holstein> im not happy with unity much, but the tools function
<OvenWerks> As long as you want their default. Unity has the man power
<holstein> yup.. the dev team at work, and doing amazing things on short notice, i think
<OvenWerks> I wonder what signal xorg sends when a second monitor shows up
<holstein> we could ask the unity folks.. that works great in unity
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if it is there or part of gnome.
<holstein> thats true.. could just come from upstream
<OvenWerks> unity is still based on the gnome libs/settings
<holstein> for now...
<holstein> wonder if that will change
<OvenWerks> zequence should know if it works on gnome, he runs gnome shell
<OvenWerks> I'll ask when next he is here.
<OvenWerks> Actually I should just look in xorg
<OvenWerks> Playing some more with xrandr and dual monitors.
<OvenWerks> well I'm pretending, I can get this video card to think I have hotpluged a monitor in by loading the greeen channel.
<OvenWerks> I can see the possitions with arandr or xrandr (one is visual and the other numbers
<OvenWerks> Anyway, the unity default of --right-of is probably best. It keeps the pannel on the same monitor, going --left-of moves the pannel to the second monitor.
<madeinkobaia> Hi all, does someone have some news from zequence ?
<OvenWerks> madeinkobaia: I would guess that he went riding for the weekend and his server quit.
<OvenWerks> yes it is unusual that he is not here
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks : Hi Len, thanks for the feedback. Hope everything is ok by him side.
<OvenWerks> yup
<OvenWerks> To be honest, it is good to think he is doing gomething other than looking at the computer
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks : Yep, for sure.
<OvenWerks> zequence: do you ever use dual monitors?
<zequence> Reinstalling server, so that's why I haven't been online
<zequence> OvenWerks, I used to
<zequence> Not since I started using my TV as a monitor
<OvenWerks> I was wondering if gnome shell has the same display set up as unity
<OvenWerks> Mainly if a hotpluged second monitor default to right-of
<zequence> It used to be different anyway
<zequence> Well, not in that way though
<zequence> You need to set it to be right of
<OvenWerks> I am wondering if there is any reason not to default to right-of
<OvenWerks> That is is there any use case for mirror?
<OvenWerks> (AKA same-as)
<zequence> If there wasn't I don't think it would be given as an option
<zequence> Also, it highly depends on your graphic card how you set that up
<OvenWerks> I am thinking of free drivers (xrandr compatable)
<OvenWerks> zequence: The mani plus I can see for same-as is that it doesn't change the screen size. (this is not strictly true but it has the least change anyway) It certainly uses the least amount of memory.
<holstein> i think its interesting, on the heels of the open desktop support, to think about what cory was bringing up a few releases ago
<holstein> not really having an actual "ubuntustudio".. but, what he said was PPA's
<holstein> i didnt really understand that, since we couldnt be "official" and have ppa's.. but i was thinkin meta-packages
<holstein> its something we could discuss..
<holstein> it really upset me at the time, because we had only a few folks, and had scrambled to make iso testing happen, and put out some fires.. and he came in about 2 weeks before release time and made that suggestion
<holstein> after we had already done all the work... but, i think its an interesting idea to entertain
<holstein> just adding ubuntustudio to whatever distro you want
<holstein> i dont think most folks understand how it works anyways.. like the last question in the support channel.. "running ubuntustudio on nonPAE"
<holstein> any, google search of ubuntu and nonPAE brings up tons of information... but if folks dont (and i really think they dont) realize that ubuntustudio *is* ubuntu, then i think its unclear where to look for help
<holstein> not that going to meta-packages necessarily would simplify that and bring any clarity
<holstein> the other option would be to have ubuntutsudio-unity, ubuntustudio-gnome.. iso's and meta packages
<holstein> i dont think we have the man-power for that right now.. though the way it is suggested in the list makes sense.. if you want to test and support it, we can have it
<OvenWerks> holstein: I think we are trying for a middle road :)
<OvenWerks> We really would like (and our users would like) to be able to offer custom installs
<OvenWerks> That is, not having to install all of the workflows, just those you need.
<OvenWerks> The DE options would be an extension of that.
<OvenWerks> holstein: TBH, one of the biggest problems we have with the audio Workflow and installing it on other flavours... is getting RT/low latency to work OOTB
<OvenWerks> I really don't know how this applies to othger workflows like video.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if anyone in the linux world has really spent time optimizing a machine for video work (creation) aside from the game boys
<holstein> OvenWerks: i like the middle road, but i was just thinking, if it solved all the issues, and helped us, since we are small-ish
<holstein> what we do is challenging
<holstein> OvenWerks: getting that working on OSX ootb is challenging
<holstein> on windows.. etc
<OvenWerks> There are reatively few apps that use video realtime
<holstein> the other OS's typically dont even have that option.. the "major" ones right now
<holstein> iso and android for example
<OvenWerks> Making Studio metas work right with other flavours could be chalenging too
<holstein> what we are taking on, strictly from a complete outside perspective is challenging
<OvenWerks> Yes.
<OvenWerks> Packaging a DE meta allows control of things that might affect HW performance.
<OvenWerks> The downside is that the flavours come with a better asortment of desktop apps, but we would have to ship something pretty stripped as we do with xfce
<DarkEra> A Studio distro shouldn't come with loads of desktop apps, so stripped down would be better
<holstein> well, thats arguable, and comes up a lot
<OvenWerks> DarkEra: holstein, if we are shipping DE metas they will have to stripped down. The question is where to draw that line.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think I am going to revive the ubuntustudio-menu meta.
<OvenWerks> My thinking is that we should be able to leave the DE menu setup mostly alone
<OvenWerks> We just want to replace multi-media, graphics etc. with our workflow bit.
<OvenWerks> Also I think people still install that meta expecting our new menu to be there
<OvenWerks> holstein: would it be worthwhile adding extra app installers for some of the desktop stuff we don't ship?
<holstein> OvenWerks: maybe.. i mean, the software center *is* that app
<OvenWerks> Should they be distro specific?
<holstein> i think we should focus on the distro that we like, and support, and making that work well
<OvenWerks> USC is big ugly and slow... hope it gets better
<holstein> and go from there, as needed
<OvenWerks> Ya everything has to work with xfce.
<OvenWerks> Just as a point of interest... Some of the packages like blender that crash X on studio seem to work fine in KDE
<OvenWerks> Same machine.
<holstein> also, is qt where we are heading?
<holstein> in general?
<OvenWerks> We? Ubuntu? It seems that way
<OvenWerks> debian? I don't know.
<holstein> thats true...
<OvenWerks> Studio has to be able to run whatever the workflow items come in.
<OvenWerks> Some apps can be picked and chosen by the lib they use because there is more than one
<OvenWerks> I can't see us not including ardour because of what libs it uses though
<OvenWerks> (as a quick example)
<OvenWerks> I know mudita24 is not QT, but I need it for my sound card
<holstein> right
<holstein> im installing antergos right now... the new cinnarch
<holstein> you get to choose from gnome, cinnamon, xfce and razorQT
<holstein> the installer lets you choose that
<holstein> suse does something like that as well.. i think thats a great idea, though, i can imagine the support gets challenging
<OvenWerks> Thats what we want to do, but are hoping to lean on the ubuntu flavour pretty heavy I think.
<OvenWerks> In other words our KDE, for example, will try to be as close to kubuntu as it can just with a few less apps
<OvenWerks> xubuntu is already talking about offering a minimal and a "full" version as two isos
 * OvenWerks doesn't know how far from dream it is though
<OvenWerks> holstein: from my POV, it would be great to have a meta that just fixes the RT/lowlatency stuff in the other flavours. Then just install Studio on top.
<OvenWerks> Our ISO would then be xfce. An install time option could install kubuntu, gubuntu, lubuntu or ubuntu metas along with it.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I was wondering if we could use a "replaces" in our low latency kernel?
<holstein> OvenWerks: im unclear why its not working
<holstein> OvenWerks: seems like if someone installs JACK, that should just happen
<holstein> jack, or the lowlatency kernel
<OvenWerks> Ya, but from the support channel it seems not.
<holstein> OvenWerks: and ardour
<holstein> the #ardour channel*
<OvenWerks> We need more people, it takes time to install a flavour, install packages on top then test and trouble shoot
<holstein> yup
<holstein> im fine with volunteers coming along to help with each
<holstein> i might be able to head up LXDE.. i do a lot with another LXDE distro
<OvenWerks> Sure. That should be the easiest
<holstein> maybe we can talk falk into the KDE one
<holstein> get zequence on the gnome one
<holstein> OvenWerks: someone should look are razorQT
<holstein> is mate coming? or going?
<OvenWerks> falktx tends to want to hack at too many stock KDE apps.
<OvenWerks> I would concider mate not an option. I would rather support cinnamon
<holstein> thats where i am as well, though cinammon might be on the way out
<OvenWerks> Luke (from the mailing list) want to do a cinnamon version.
<holstein> i like that idea
<OvenWerks> It could always turn into a gnome classic which may replace it
<DarkEra> cinnamon is great but on the other hand just a fork of gnome3/gnome shell
<holstein> chich could make it easier to deal with
<holstein> which*
<OvenWerks> I know. But at least it uses up to date libs
<holstein> hey.. if someone wants to support it, i say let em
<DarkEra> i don't have a problem with it :)
<OvenWerks> I think a lot of the stuff made for it would work with gnome 3 in classic mode anyway... (with the classic extension I guess)
<DarkEra> you should ask glebihan about that, he's involved in mint
<DarkEra> and cinnamon
<OvenWerks> Too far down my list :) I will probably work on kde and maybe some lxde if needed
<DarkEra> hehehe :)
<OvenWerks> I have partitions for xfce, lxde and kde on here now
<DarkEra> how big are the partitions?
<DarkEra> i might need to add some myself soon, that's why i ask :)
<holstein> for a testing install? 8 or 10 should do.. depends on what you want in there
<DarkEra> once Gnome 3 saucy is fixed i need to set up another one for sure 
<OvenWerks> They are all about 20g
<DarkEra> OvenWerks, ok, cool :)
<OvenWerks> I made them a bit bigger that needed in case I want to add some development stuff
<holstein> with 20, you could test some audio sessions too, if needed
<holstein> i think im going to setup some minimal ubuntu sessions in vbox on my big rig
<OvenWerks> kubuntu for example is using 38%
<OvenWerks> I have added the video meta so far
<DarkEra> if my netbook wasn't so weak i would use that for dev stuff
<OvenWerks> Thats where I do mine.
<OvenWerks> But I do mostly settings and meta creation
<OvenWerks> text stuff
<DarkEra> what kind of netbook is it you have?
<OvenWerks> Acer about 2-3 years old
<OvenWerks> 1G mem, 1.6Ghz single core
<DarkEra> aspire one 150 ZG5?
<OvenWerks> No, it a 250
<OvenWerks> The fix for display not working that works for the 150 doesn't work for me :P
<zequence> I'm kind of starting to think perhaps offering settings for all DEs would be better than supplying metas for them
<zequence> And, there's a slight difference between the flavor meta, and the DE meta
<zequence> Like, there's a meta for XFCE, and one for Xubuntu desktop
<zequence> Also, KDE, and Kubuntu
<zequence> et
<zequence> etc
<zequence> Well, just a thought so far
<OvenWerks> zequence: It would certainly be nice to be able to just use what is available.
<OvenWerks> zequence: either the free nvidio driver has been fixed or I have had a problem with our xfce install. It seems that any of the apps I have not been able to run in studio work ok in kubuntu.
<OvenWerks> I have yet to install the lowlatency kernel, thats next
<OvenWerks> zequence: kernel in kubuntu 3.9.0-2-generic, ours is 3.8.0-19-lowlatency?
<OvenWerks> Huh, Jack won't start RT... Nothing in our meta install to add the user to audio. Can we add that to the audio meta install script?
<OvenWerks> Kmix is harder to change PA sink on than pavucontrol
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-26
<OvenWerks> I suppose once you know how it is ok.
<OvenWerks> Access is faster
<DarkEra> OvenWerks, kubuntu saucy?
<OvenWerks> Ya, saucy
<DarkEra> i believe i got the 3.9.0-2 generic kernel too on my ubuntu studio saucy dev partition, no lowlatency yet
<OvenWerks> That shouldn't be.
<OvenWerks> You should get lowlatency even if it's old
<OvenWerks> The only reason I have generic is because it is a kubuntu install
<OvenWerks> zequence: Another idea... A ubuntustudio-install package
<DarkEra> i'll check on that tomorrow to make sure what kernel it is and let you know
<OvenWerks> zequence: the idea is, install a ubuntu flavour
<OvenWerks> DarkEra: ok, I will check my ubuntustudio install too
<OvenWerks> zequence: install the ubuntustudio-install package.
<OvenWerks> zequence: a menu item shows up in the system submenu
<OvenWerks> zequence: starting it gives a gui that list the workflows.
<DarkEra> since i'm still awake i might do so right away, i'll be right back
<OvenWerks> zequence: the user checks the boxes they what to install or unchecks ones they want removed (might be more dangerous)
<OvenWerks> Hits go/install/whatever and the user gets put in audio (or whatever) group. The flag is set to yes for jack RT and the install gets done.
<DarkEra> OvenWerks, 3.9.0-2-generic #7-Ubuntu SMP Mon May 20 14:23:48 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
<OvenWerks> It could even be done like the msfonts installer where installing it runs the installer dialog.
<OvenWerks> Darkera, I'll check here
<DarkEra> ok, thanks
<OvenWerks> I have 3.8.0-19-lowlatency
<DarkEra> that one is still showing in grub too
<OvenWerks> VERSION="UbuntuStudio 13.10, Saucy Salamander"
<OvenWerks> I haven't booted, just looking at the files in /boot on that partition and /etc/os-version
<OvenWerks> But I do not have any generic kernel.
<OvenWerks> There are some things that do load in the generic though.
<OvenWerks> and once you do, the highest number becomes default
<DarkEra> VERSION="13.10, Saucy Salamander"
<OvenWerks> We need to add a rule to the grub tree that if jackd is installed, low latency is always default
<DarkEra> weird it pulled in the generic kernel
<OvenWerks> If you run synaptic and search linux
<OvenWerks> actually search linux-generic.
<OvenWerks> if you right click on it (in the window below) and select properties
<OvenWerks> The second tab is Dependencies
<DarkEra> ok, got it
<OvenWerks> The button at the top is a drop down menu that you can select Dependants
<OvenWerks> Those are the things that depend on generic
<OvenWerks> I have linux-server, linux-generic-pae and linux
<OvenWerks> (remember this is a kubuntu install)
<DarkEra> it shows linux-generic, linux-server and linux
<OvenWerks> So you need to see if any of those are installed. Linux isn't here
<DarkEra> this was a 13.04 ubuntu studio install that was upgraded to the development cycle 
<OvenWerks> That may be part of it. If so that is a bug.
<DarkEra> linux-generic is installed, linux-server not from what i can see
<OvenWerks> I am seeing the same things here
<OvenWerks> I have generic, but none of the dependants are installed.
<OvenWerks> I guess that method is not too good.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if it is the upgrader
<OvenWerks> Distrobution-upgrade may pull in the standard kernel for the new version.
<OvenWerks> zequence: ^^^
<DarkEra> should i remove them or just let it be as is for now
<OvenWerks> You can remove linux
<OvenWerks> But that is up to you
<OvenWerks> It works fine as is, but you need to boot from the menu under the default for lowlatency
<DarkEra> ok, i'll look into that later on when i'm up again. getting late here... or early... lol
<DarkEra> 3:43 am
<OvenWerks> Late any way you look at it.
<OvenWerks> GN
<DarkEra> chat you later and thanks again for the guidance 
<OvenWerks> No problem
<madeinkobaia> See you all : )
<OvenWerks> Bye
<madeinkobaia> By Len : )
<OvenWerks> zequence: Another idea... menus this time.
<OvenWerks> Right now we use a layout with our workflows near the top and our Studio info submenu at the bottom.
<OvenWerks> Because of the way other DE menus are put together it may make more sense to add it at the top or bottom of our workflow section.
<OvenWerks> It doesn't matter so much if we are building our own DE meta, but if we want to add the menu to a flavour it may help.
<zequence> OvenWerks, There is something weird happening with the -generic kernel, and I have no idea why it is pulled in
<zequence> OvenWerks, About the audio group, my intention is to fix that not only for Ubuntu Studio, but for Debian + Ubuntu, to make sure installing jack is all that is required in order to get realtime
<zequence> It's impossible to administer groups for users using installers
<zequence> Not technically, but policy wise
<zequence> At least, not automatically
<zequence> One needs a tool for that, where the user is informed and allowed to choose
<OvenWerks> Tool = installer?
<OvenWerks> Re -generic, I think what is happening is that as part of the standard distro-upgrade, the new kernel is installed.
<OvenWerks> zequence: where in the seeds is our kernel? Used to be in desktop...
<OvenWerks> If the seeds are the metas that an upgrade uses and there is no kernel in the seeds/metas, does the distro upgrade sw install the generic kernel because there is nothing else?
<OvenWerks> zequence: ^^
<zequence> OvenWerks, I really don't know why it is pulled in. Haven't thoroughly investigated
<zequence> The tool could be a part of the installer, sure
<zequence> But, I'd rather fix the way realtime is administered. It would make it so we don't need a tool
<zequence> I've been working on a realtime privilege administering tool for -controls, but I'm hoping I won't need to add it
<zequence> phew, I've been sick, like poisoned for more than a day now. Starting to come back to life
<astraljava> Uhh... that sounds nasty. What happened?
<OvenWerks> zequence: you have been timing out
<OvenWerks> I have looked at the do-release-upgrade code as best I can
<OvenWerks> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-release-upgrade
<OvenWerks> It seems to be pretty much meta based from what I can tell.
<OvenWerks> We have no kernel in any of our metas or in our seeds anywhere
<OvenWerks> The ISO still includes it so I don't know where it gets speced
<OvenWerks> Anyway, do-release-upgrade, only mentions the kernel in one place and it is about removing old ones. It does show the variants it removes and RT is included, but low latency is not
<OvenWerks> It may be that it uses the remove variants to decide what it can replace it with.
<OvenWerks> sorry, it calls them types.
<OvenWerks> Also, It is interesting that in removal_blacklist.cfg, all of the other flavour-desktop metas are mentioned, but not ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> that may have to be so until the gnome2 DE is no longer supported ??
<OvenWerks> The metas that a studio upgrade is based on are ubuntustudio-desktop, ubuntustudio-default-settings, ubuntustudio-look and no others.
<OvenWerks> That should mean that any other metas are not release specific. This means that if ubuntustudio-recording is installed in 12.04 and we add an app to it in 13.10, that the 12.04 install would try to upgrade to the new meta... Or should.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am dumping all this in an email
<zequence> OvenWerks, Seems like we need to understand how the ISO is done better. I know that audio group is only added when installing from ISO, but haven't taken the time to find out how
<OvenWerks> Well, I am installing precise now and will upgrade to 1304. I will check what I end up with.
<OvenWerks> Package wise
<OvenWerks> Have to update the install first :)
<OvenWerks> 186 updates
<OvenWerks> comes with low-latency
<OvenWerks> do-release-upgrade -d gets me from P to Q. Descroption shows lowlatency kernel
<OvenWerks> maybe it will only be a problem from R to S
<OvenWerks> I will try them all
<OvenWerks> I think S does not have a new kernel yet, that may be why.
<zequence> OvenWerks, From what I've seen, just installing 32bit gets you -generic kernel
<zequence> So, not just from upgrading
<zequence> And it may not be the same on 32bit and 64bit
<OvenWerks> So far all of my installs have been low latency.
<zequence> OvenWerks, Yes, lowlatency and* -generic in the case of 32bit
<zequence> Check /boot for configs
<OvenWerks> ls /media/b98b7106-e426-4dae-bd0b-978f70936e2c/boot/
<OvenWerks> abi-3.8.0-19-lowlatency         memtest86+.bin
<OvenWerks> config-3.8.0-19-lowlatency      memtest86+_multiboot.bin
<OvenWerks> grub                            System.map-3.8.0-19-lowlatency
<OvenWerks> initrd.img-3.8.0-19-lowlatency  vmlinuz-3.8.0-19-lowlatency
<zequence> Ok, so not in the case of raring
<OvenWerks> Thats 13.10 straight install
<zequence> Oh, saucy then
<zequence> I've only checked precise and quantal
<OvenWerks> precice was correct too
<zequence> Well, for some reason, I had -generic installed on 32bit. I have no idea why, but it happened, both on Precise and Quantal
<zequence> This was some time ago I had a look at that last
<zequence> Many months
<OvenWerks> precise was install plus all the updates to now. So it now has two lowlatency kernels.
<OvenWerks> I haven't had that happen on any installs, that is why I thought maybe upgrades
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-19
<Guest68326> Ok  Grumpy is here :)
<zequence> Guest92208: Welcome :)
<Guest92208> TY  to bad Grumpy is taken lol
<Guest92208> any idea how to find out what nick,s are in use ?
<zequence> You mean like, get a list of all nicks either registered or in use?
<Guest92208> do read howto,s but mmm  not yet found
<Guest92208> registrered i gues
<zequence> I would guess there are quite a lot of them, but if you figure out something fairly unusual, I'm sure it'll work
<Guest92208> lol   i see
<Guest92208> how can i help ? 
<zequence> Guest92208: Just follow the mail list and this channel. Read more at the link I gave you, to get a better idea. Then, jump in whenever you find you could do something
<zequence> Guest92208: Here's a very incomplete documentation about the development process https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentCycle
<zequence> Probably what you want to start with is testing. None going on right now, but we need people to write tests in the coming cycle(s)
<zequence> I just put out a mail about us needing to organize that in the coming weeks
<Guest92208> no mail yet ,feels like i stand in a forest and see no tree 
<Guest92208> what is wisdom to set up in virtualbox a studio 64 or 32 bits ?  i use 64
<zequence> Guest92208: Both may be required
<zequence> We always test both anyway
<zequence> Guest92208: See previous mails here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2014-May/thread.html
<Guest92208> will do that 
<zequence> Guest92208: What we test is the current development release, which is 14.10
<zequence> You can find the current ISO here http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/
<Guest92208> downloading  , wonder it say daily build do you need to reinstall every week then ?
<zequence> Guest92208: No, you just need to update the system if you want more recent versions of packages
<zequence> Guest92208: Keep the ISO. If you decide to download again, use zsync. It will only download the changes in the ISO, not the whole ISO itself
<zequence> With a terminal, in the path where the ISO is, for the 64bit version, you would do: cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/utopic-dvd-amd64.iso.zsync
<zequence> sorry: zsync cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/utopic-dvd-amd64.iso.zsync
<zequence> Nah..
<Guest92208> ok  got me some work
<zequence> zsync http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/utopic-dvd-amd64.iso.zsync
<zequence> Third time the charm
<Guest92208> zequence  how much memory for the virtual machines   1G or 1.5 
<zequence> Guest92208: Depends on how much RAM you have on your machine. I would go with 2GB if you can spare it
<Guest92208> older system   -Computer-
<Guest92208> Processor		: 2x Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     E8400  @ 3.00GHz
<Guest92208> Memory		: 3721MB (1034MB used)  Resolution		: 1280x1024 pixels
<Guest92208> Audio Adapter		: Audigy - SB Audigy 1 [SB0090]           Audio Adapter		: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel
<zequence> 1GB is enough in your case
<Guest92208> will set them up and see how things work out
<Guest92208> i hate redirects  yuck i  go to : http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists/etiquette  " and send to "http://www.ubuntu.com/partners"
<Guest92208> link is on " https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel "   
<zequence> Guest92208: Wow. Didn't know about that. Let me add a rt ticket for that. 
<zequence> rt tickets are for the Canonical sysadmins who administer mail lists, and also our website (the content is of course managed by us)
<Guest92208> :) i done something lol
<zequence> Hmm, maybe it's our fault. Let me see
<Guest92208> yes see you are the dev manager  got the mailing list  request ?
<dutch_Grumpy> lol
<zequence> dutch_Grumpy: Changed it
<dutch_Grumpy> OK  installing the machines now
<dutch_Grumpy> Ok  tomorrow more :)   
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-21
<OvenWerks> zequence: when does the LTS daily ISO start to appear? 
<zequence> OvenWerks: It is built daily, just like a development release. Latest updates. Once we get to 14.04.1, it freezes and is tested.
<zequence> elfy: Did you read the post in our devel list about testing?
<elfy> zequence: I didn't - sorry - must have missed it - I'll reply later today when I'm back from work properly
<zequence> elfy: No hurry at all. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss it
<elfy> yep - I've read it now - there's a bunch of stuff that I'd want to reply with - but if you want to start ball rolling with anything - yes I'm cool with QA lead for at least this cycle - if you want I can talk to Nick Skaggs re tracker etc, but I suspect I will need to be in a studio LP team to make that work (not sure)
<elfy> off to work again - bbl
<zequence> elfy: Anything you need.
<ethermonk> oh wow
<elfy> zequence: I sent a mail to the list now :)
<zequence> elfy: Great. I'll respond tomorrow probably. Need to look more into the ubuntu QA part of it.
<elfy> zequence: did what I said make sense?
<elfy> when I login to the package tracker - I do so as a member of ubuntu-testcase and xubuntu-release
<elfy> it might be that there needs to be an LP team that has access to the tracker admin side - balloons will know
<zequence> elfy: I think so, yes. It's the same with the qa iso thing
<zequence> We have ubuntustudio-release team for that
<elfy> yea - it will be the same team
<zequence> elfy: Ok. Good. i'll have a look tomorrow on that, and get back to you.
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> zequence: to be frank - this is mostly going to work or not work depending on how many people are willing to pitch in
<elfy> there's been a couple of people pitch up on the m/l looking for something to do - if they've not got specific skills - perhaps point them in testing/testcase directions
<zequence> elfy: That's what I'm thinking too. Good way to learn how development works
<zequence> elfy: Unfortunately, very few of the people who want to help actually end up doing so. 
<elfy> I know that one well ;)
<elfy> during the last cycle - we had 40 people testing (both packages and images)
<elfy> we've a lot more on the m/l 
<zequence> elfy: In either case, i will make sure we at least have the infrastructure for it this cycle
<elfy> yep
<elfy> I'm fairly positive that if nothing else it's going to be further forwards than it is now :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-22
<OvenWerks> zequence_: looking into /etc/xdg/autostart/ for maybe starting jackd at session start and I notice that most of the autostarts are in the directory already listed.
<OvenWerks> but there is one file in /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/autostart/
<OvenWerks> xfce4-tips-autostart.desktop
<OvenWerks> Is there a reason this is not with the others? does it actually do something unique to studio?
<OvenWerks> I am thinking it could be moved in with the rest for easier maint.
<OvenWerks> It looks like it is a remnant from basing studio on xubuntu in 11.10
<OvenWerks> good night
<zequence_> OvenWerks: Yes, it must have been there since the start.
<zequence_> OvenWerks: I don't think autostarting jack should be done in a permanent fashion. It needs to be settable. -controls would have a autostart script, which would read through the user settings file to look for certain things, like: 1. is -controls set to autostart? 2. is jack set to autostart?, etc..
<ttoine> zequence_, hello
<ttoine> are you hre ?
<ttoine> here
<zequence_> ttoine: Hi
<zequence> ttoine: I'll be away for a moment, but I'm logging, so I can read later.
<ttoine> zequence, ok
<zequence> ttoine: I'm back
<ttoine> zequence, great
<ttoine> just a word about the footer of the ubuntustudio.org
<ttoine> I get another inquiry of Canonical legal staff: they would like us to add the same modification that I add to do for the merchandise
<ttoine> it means telling that we are not affiliated with Canoncial
<ttoine> I think they are gonna unsupport us in a very few time
<zequence> ttoine: You mean, for the website, or just for the merchandise page?
<ttoine> for the merchandise I already did it, both at the bottom the merchandise page of ubuntustudio.org, and the spreadshirt shop
<ttoine> however they want us to edit the footer
<ttoine> I can't do that with my account...
<zequence> ttoine: Ah, that needs to be done for the wp theme
<ttoine> yes, sure
<zequence> ttoine: Let me do that tomorrow. We can't upload changes ourselves. Done by Canonical sysadmins
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> there is no urgency
<ttoine> you can use the same modification that I did
<cub> hi ttoine 
<cub> I read the logs and you wrote earlier "I think they are gonna unsupport us in a very few time" about the footer and "not affiliated with Canonical"
<cub> Could you elaborate a bit? You think Canonical will stop providing like web hosting or you think Ubuntu Studio might be excluded as a official distribution of the Ubuntu family?
<ttoine> cub hi
<ttoine> I think, yes
<ttoine> because for a few weeks, they are asking me to mark more on our websites that we are not affiliated with Ubuntu and Canonical
<cub> yes on both questions or? :D
<cub> aha even with Ubuntu?
<ttoine> we might be excluded of the official distribution
<ttoine> for the rest, I don"t know
<ttoine> or maybe this is just a new legal guy at Canonical that wants to make stuff clear
<ttoine> strange
<elfy> âI would have thought that they'd need to talk to 'you' before they did that
<cub> because the footer on spreadshirt only say Canonical
<elfy> and I would double check with this legal - wouldn't be the first hiccup from someone new in 'legal'
<cub> Otherwise I would reach out to Jono quick before he leaves. :P
<cub> I understand if they want to say Ubuntu Studio is not affiliated with Canonical, that makes sense. But not affiliated with Ubuntu, that would propose some questions
<zequence> I don't believe for a second they would stop letting us be an official distro
<zequence> Makes sense that they want to make clear that we are not affiliated with Canonical
<zequence> We should probably make that even clearer in our info pages
<elfy> zequence: I'd agree - I'm sure this is a hiccup in legal - I would really get some clarification on this
<elfy> ^^ said with my other hat on
<zequence> elfy: I added you to the ubuntustudio-release team just now
<elfy> aah okey doke - I'll see if I can poke about in the innards of the trackers then
<zequence> Time for a beer in the sun with my lady :)
<cub> nice
<cub> summer in Gothenburg as well?
<zequence> yep
<cub> Stockholm too, but I'm stuck inside the office. :P
<zequence> Actually, I need to wait another hour :(
<cub> Gotta go back to the work stuff. :/
<elfy> zequence: don't drink too much alone :p
<elfy> ttoine: not sure if you read my comment above about double checking what they're after you doing and why
<zequence> elfy: It's too for that. But, I might go a little realier
<zequence> earlier*
<elfy> I guessed :)
<ttoine> hum
<zequence> I meant to say too hot.
<ttoine> zequence, kubuntu developers are not anymore supported by Canonical
<ttoine> and if you look at their website, they are highlighting Server and Cloud edition
<ttoine> Desktop edition come third
<zequence> That doesn't mean they are shutting down the whole community
<elfy> kubuntu is a different situation 
<zequence> I suppose Kubuntu has another history, back in the time when Gnome and KDE were the main competitors. Canonical maintained Gnome, while Kubuntu maintained KDE.
<zequence> With Unity, things have changed. And Canonical is also relying less on the community.
<zequence> Well, at least not in the same old way
<ttoine> wait and see
<OvenWerks> Any idea why our "make Startup Disk" App won't see mini.iso?
<zequence> OvenWerks: No idea. If you like, use dd: dd if=/path/to/iso of=/dev/sd*
<zequence> replace 
<zequence> replace  * with a letter, but not with the additional partition number
<zequence> It will wipe the whole usb device, but the ISO will only take the amount of space in one partition as it is big
<zequence> So, you end up with some additional space
<zequence> free space, that is
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-23
<OvenWerks> zequence: Lots of text on things on the netboot pages, none worked... dd was not there, but it worked fine. I am trying the lubuntu-minimal
<OvenWerks> I didn't want to resize the usb stick partition, but I had already cleaned it off so there is no loss, just have to repartition it when I am done back to 16G
<OvenWerks> mini.iso seems to be significantly different from either the live or alt iso.
<holstein> right?!
<OvenWerks> holstein: The utility for writing an iso to a usb stick does not see mini.iso (aka netboot) as an iso.
<OvenWerks> I seem to be in a position where none of the computers in the house actually have a cd/dvd drive.... seems they have been outmoded.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I installed the basic system from mini.iso plus ssh, lubuntu, and our audio meta.
<OvenWerks> This pulled in not just lubuntu-minimal but also xubuntu settings, ubuntustudio-setting, three sets of wallpapers... quite a lot of stuff.
<OvenWerks> zequence: obviously the audio-workstation selection on the mini.iso is ubuntustudio plus audio-meta.
<OvenWerks> the user does not end up in the audio group. and the kernel is generic.
<OvenWerks> I will have to start out all over again with just lubuntu-minimal and nothing else to see if that works.
<OvenWerks> Grub did not want to install either. It said something about not liking multiple partitions??? anyway, I booted from my main partition updatyed grub which found the new OS and was able to boot to it.
<OvenWerks> I do not know that I would recommend installing from netboot to anyone. It is frustrating and does not explain itself very well even when you sort of know what to expect.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I agree making a minimal audio Live ISO is probably worth while.
<OvenWerks> Some of the tings I would like to see:
<OvenWerks> lowlatency audio set up correctly, same as our normal live ISO
<OvenWerks> jackdbus started at session start and pulse started with no alsa backend.
<OvenWerks> For all debian, I would like to see GRUB changed to allow the user/(sub)distro to name partitions or boot options. A standard way of prefering a type of kernel... in other words our lowlatency should be easy to change to RT.
<OvenWerks> The changes to GRUB should be easy as it is all shell script and merely adding some more variables should make this so it doesn't hurt the uefi
<OvenWerks> openbox with xfce4-panel works fine too.
<OvenWerks> I don't know that the wm itself matters that much.
<zequence> OvenWerks: audio group is handled by a hack in ubiquity
<zequence> So, you won't get it with a mini,iso
<zequence> Our installer won't be an alternate installer. It will have ubiquity
<zequence> OvenWerks: I only installed lubuntu-minimal. You should try that. The system is really barebone
<zequence> Then we only add audio plumbing, and linux-lowlatency
<zequence> The mini.iso has the old installer. It doesn't work the same way as a live ISO with ubiquity.
<zequence> Different installers
<zequence> Our minimal ISO would be a live ISO, just like our main ISO, but significantly smaller
<zequence> Way below 600MB would be nice
<zequence> !paste
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<zequence> OvenWerks: lubuntu core, with added ubuntu studio theme and menu http://snag.gy/ibR2t.jpg
<zequence> I put the panel up, just for the heck of it. Since it's always been that way.
<zequence> If you look quickly, you hardly see it's a completely different DE
<zequence> Ah, just one more thing - networking :P
<zequence> it doesn't have network manager and gui tools for setting up wifi
<zequence> Ubiquity might have network setup controls though, but as a live tool it would need some more stuff
<elfy> zequence: is there a list anywhere of the studio default apps ? - ie not all the packages - not wanting a list 100's of lines long :p
<zequence> elfy: Well, that depends on what you mean by default :). Our default installation is pretty big
<zequence> elfy: the metas, ubuntustudio-audio, -audio-pluins, -graphics, -video, -publishing and -photography
<zequence> elfy: However, we should probably start with the most important applications
<zequence> I could make a list of everything, and separate the packages that we should do first
<elfy> zequence: I'm mostly after a list of things that don't get looked at testing wise elsewhere - so hydrogen etc 
<zequence> elfy: I'd say most of what is in those metas
<zequence> There may be only a few packages there that are common in other distros other than those that have our focus
<zequence> I'm pretty sure Gimp and Krita get looked at by someone
<zequence> But, how well are they tested?
<zequence> Also, blender
<elfy> we don't test gimp I know that
<elfy> if you can get me a list that'd be great 
<elfy> what I'm going to try and do is then - mark which get tested/which have testcases/ testcase bug #'s for those that are listed 
<elfy> something that 'we' can then all look at and gulp a bit at :)
<zequence> elfy: So, Gimp has a test case already?
<elfy> yea
<elfy> and it is in an Ubuntu testsuite 
<zequence> elfy: To begin with: ardour3, hydrogen, qjackctl, jackd2, jackd1, audacity, qtractor, gladish
<zequence> Don't have much time right now. Will check how it all connects, and do some work on that myself as well
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> where can I find the -metas on launchpad?
<zequence> elfy: in the ubuntustudio seed file https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.utopic
<zequence> Else, you could get them with: apt-cache show ubuntustudio-audio
<zequence> ..etc
<zequence> the metas are -audio, -audio-plugins, -graphics, -video, -publishing and -photography
<zequence> There are a couple more, but not relevant for testing (at the moment, anyway)
<zequence> the seed files are called like the metas, but without "ubuntustudio-"
<zequence> Ok. Gotta go an buy a hard drive..
<elfy> ok - thanks zequence 
<OvenWerks> zequence: testing jackd1? My understanding is that jackd1 uninstalls a good chunk of our software.
<OvenWerks> about the only thing it should remove is module-jackdbus-detect... 
<OvenWerks> zequence: about the mini installer, I knew that. My comment was more about being glad we are making a replacement.
<OvenWerks> lubuntu's menu file has the same bug as all the other gtk based menus bug #1191532
<ubottu> bug 1191532 in lxmenu-data (Ubuntu) "Menu config file merges menus from standard locations too soon so defaults override merges." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191532
<OvenWerks> But we would override it with our own anyway.
<OvenWerks> The sample on the freedesktop page has the same bug... well the sw could be coded to make it work, but it makes more sense to fix the config.
<cub> wow the lubuntu mini is only 32 MB.
<dutch_Grumpy> Any idea way in virtualbox the 14.10,s are small not unlike starcraft , no problem with lubuntu 14.04
<cub> dutch_Grumpy, how do you mean small?
<dutch_Grumpy> some like 640x280   small rectangle 
<elfy> install guest additions
<cub> aha probably some issue with the graphic drivers
<dutch_Grumpy> reinstalling with full screen settings made no diverance
<cub> and what elfy wrote.
<dutch_Grumpy> i have elfy :)  as guest aditions
<cub> sometimes the guest addition have issues with too new versions of the builds
<elfy> working for me - got vbox installed in utopic with utopic guests 
<dutch_Grumpy> just have to wait then :(
<elfy> dutch_Grumpy: no errors when you ran sudo ./VBoxLinuxAdditions.run or whatever it's called?
<dutch_Grumpy>  no   just installed
<elfy> odd
<elfy> I'm just doing a vbb install of studio now - I'll see what happens 
<dutch_Grumpy> run vbox on a 14.04 64b studio
<dutch_Grumpy> elfy what is utopic ?
<elfy> 14.10 
<cub> 14.10 = utpic unicorn
<dutch_Grumpy> have one comp so need to run in vbox
<elfy> yep
<elfy> dutch_Grumpy: what guest are you trying to install then ? 
<elfy> nvm 
<cub> hmm the lubuntu mini requires network access to install? It downloads a lot it seems.
<cub> OvenWerks, are you around?
<elfy> well it will - I was sure it's not much different than the standard net image
<cub> kind defeats the purpose IMHO. Look the iso is really really small, but we download loads when you run it..
<cub> I might not have all the information though. :)
<elfy> well - you can tailor it to only get what you actually *want* not someone else's idea of a default
<cub> sure, but why not put all the things it has to download on the iso in the first place?
<elfy> but I don't do much with anything lubuntu - so could be making it up
<cub> me neither, but checking it out after the mail list discussions
<cub> or well, I ran lubuntu on my eee pc for a while but changed it for xubuntu and never looked back
<cub> elfy, wasn't unit193 fiddling with a xubuntu mini iso?
<elfy> yea
<cub> did it land?
<elfy> still is I *think*
<elfy> no - it didn't land 
<cub> perhaps that would be a better source
<DalekSec> cub: It's less of an ISO and more of a metapackage.  Don't let the iso fool you. ;)
<cub> DalekSec, I'm gullible
<elfy> ahah
<DalekSec> cub: Seems there's still an iso from March 21st.
<cub> an xubuntu mini you mean?
<DalekSec> cub: The lubuntu mini iso is just the standard Ubuntu mini iso with the Debian installer, everything is pulled from the internet.
<cub> mhm
<DalekSec> Yep, that's what I meant.
<cub> DalekSec, do you have a link?
<DalekSec> Yep, but as I don't remember if that predates whisker or not, not sure if it's fully normal.  http://unit193.net/dump/xubuntu-core-14.04-i386.iso
<cub> cool, will try that as well. GF is watching the Swedish EU debate ....
<elfy> cub: I've got some paint drying - I can record that for you to watch instead :p
<elfy> dutch_Grumpy: well 14.10 installs ok in a 14.10 host
<dutch_Grumpy>  so virtaul box is to blame then
<dutch_Grumpy> have 14.04 baremetal here
<DalekSec> cub: Heh, it predates the indicator fix and it's after whisker was added (but not on the ISO), so the panel is a bit funky.
<elfy> dutch_Grumpy: I can check mine - but it won't be today
<dutch_Grumpy> no hurry ,no doubt there are other things to do that do not need a installed version
<elfy> :)
<cub> zequence, when using the standard Ubuntu Studio iso and uncheck everything in the new installation page, what is included by default after that? Is it a sort of mini?
<cub> woaw, installing lightdm pulls in a lot
<cub> Just looking at lubuntu mini with lubuntu-core added it's by a quick look not much different to a xubuntu installation
<cub> grew to about 2.1 GB disk space and use about the same RAM on my test machine
<cub> I do better with Ubuntu Studio and dwm actually.
<cub> so, resource wise I don't think it makes much difference
<OvenWerks> cub: you called?
<cub> Yeah, I was surprised about the lubuntu mini iso downloading so much, just wanted to check if you had the same experience or if I made a mistake somewhere
<OvenWerks> I think a minimal xfce could be made as well. Just the window manager and panel.
<OvenWerks> I ended up with much more than ubuntustudio.
<cub> I haven't checked but my gut feeling is that my ubuntu studio for my usb installation ended up being smaller than lubuntu-core
<OvenWerks> But I didn't do just mini plus lubuntu-minimal, I added ssh and our audio... 
<cub> mhm I haven't added any ubuntustudio yet
<OvenWerks> I don't think we are doing lubuntu core quite.
<OvenWerks> there is a lubuntu-minimal out there.
<cub> that's the mini iso?
<OvenWerks> Might be a different name for the saem thing though
<cub> I'm not sure
<OvenWerks> We haven't made it yet.
<cub> no I meant that lubuntu mini iso and lubuntu-minimal might be the same stuff included?
<cub> not sure though
<OvenWerks> zequence will make up a seed branch and get it building. Then we can see.
<cub> I read about that. Going to be interesting
<cub> but, will it be any different from using the "normal" iso and uncheck everything?
<OvenWerks> Yes. ot will be different.
<OvenWerks> I just took a look at the lubuntu ISOs and do not see anything smaller than 600M
<cub> the mini was smaller, but then downloaded for an eternity during installation
<OvenWerks> The ISO will require first downloading everything if you wish to use it or not
<cub> imho that's better. I want to be able to install without downloading during installation
<OvenWerks> the small version will only download a bit to run and then only downlaod what you want after.
<OvenWerks> Choices are good though
<cub> yes, but the lubuntu mini downloaded a lot without me making any choices
<OvenWerks> For someone off liune the full ISO is best. Also for someone installing on more than one machine.
<cub> then it downloaded again after I made my choices
<OvenWerks> Where is this lubuntu-mini?
<cub> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/MinimalInstall
<cub> a bit down on the page there is 32 and 64 bit mini
<OvenWerks> I am looking through http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/ and there is only live and alt... both CD size or just over.
<cub> aha I went through lubuntu.net 
<cub> my dog is really bugging me now. gotta take a walk. :D
<cub> take care
<OvenWerks> zequence: RE: Bug 1322564 ... that is dependant on the panel applet that creates the menu. It is a choice that the lxde devs made to keep things lighter and and use less resourses when running.
<ubottu> bug 1322564 in ubuntustudio-menu (Ubuntu) "Menu is not updated until next login" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1322564
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have noted on xfce, the first time the menu is selected there is a very long wait (5 to 10 sec) with the disk running before the menu draws and then it is sometimes without the icons which paint as it catches up. LXDE does not seem to do that. I think the lxde panel applet does have a command to reread config info though... sig hup may work too (it is kind of the standard for that) so we could find out what that is and run it... but w
<OvenWerks> Both xfce and kde update their menu on the fly or sonn anyway. XFCE checks all the menu files last write time every time, kde seems to do this on a timer instead.
<OvenWerks> s/sonn/soon/
<kubotu> OvenWerks meant: "Both xfce and kde update their menu on the fly or soon anyway. XFCE checks all the menu files last write time every time, kde seems to do this on a timer instead."
<OvenWerks> zequence: From some of the traffic on this channel, it would seem a comparison of the full ISO to the DE-only ISO and where each would be used might be helpful.
<OvenWerks> It makes sense to me looking from the inside out, but it seems not obvious to everyone.
<OvenWerks> For example (just off the top of my head) I would think the DE-only iso might be 300 to 400 meg instead of 2.5G
<OvenWerks> Also there seems to be some confusion about the difference between the size of an on disk install and an ISOs compressed fs size.
<OvenWerks> Having a real ISO to point at will probably answer many questions though.
 * OvenWerks is off to pick up his son.
<Grumpy-Dutch> bed time here :) 
<OvenWerks> g'nite
<elfy> night Grumpy-Dutch 
<DalekSec> cub: Not sure if you were interested in that ISO, but if you were I just spun up a 14.10 one too, same menu problem for now though.
<cub> cool, I have downloaded the last one but my virtualbox is setting up a debian, will run the xubuntu after that
<OvenWerks> cub, the lubuntu mini install from the page you gave me is just the standard ubuntu netinstall. It is not a lubuntu product
<cub> hmm
<OvenWerks> I would expect our DE only ISO to be closer to 300meg
<OvenWerks> Still much smaller than 2500meg.
<OvenWerks> I typed to soon, we are actually down to 2100meg
<OvenWerks> However I could see our full ISO increasing in size to include more possibilities for those looking for a download once install many thing.
<cub> yeah, the link goes to the ubuntu netinstall
<cub> doh
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-24
<OvenWerks> hmmm The LXDE blog is full of LXQt stuff. Is this different or the new lxde?
<DalekSec> LXDE is becomming LXQT, changing from GTK2 to Qt.
<holstein> a merger, AFAIK.. 
<holstein> also, the razorQT de folk
<holstein> OvenWerks: i thought this was informative.. http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/57287/developers-get-qt-lup-40/
<OvenWerks> holstein, zequence: I only mention it becasue it will affect us if we use lxde on any of our projects
<OvenWerks> holstein: I understand the move to QT, if GCDMaster was writen in qt it would still build word for us.
<OvenWerks> even if it was qt2 and we were using qt5
<holstein> OvenWerks: its interesting to see where it all goes
<OvenWerks> zequence: looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupLocalIsoBuildServer
<OvenWerks> zequence: in particular the line export PROJECT=ubuntustudio-dvd SUITE=raring ARCH=amd64
<OvenWerks> That line seems to be the line that tells which seed file to look at
<OvenWerks> is there a way to spec a local seed branch.
<cub> hi DalekSec, I tried the xubuntu mini iso 14.04, but it starts in live mode no matter what I choose during boot
<cub> and once booted I can't find how to install
<cub> Any ideas?
<DalekSec> Right, it doesn't have Ubiquity, not made to be an installer CD just a trial run.  Do you need it?  I take it you don't know how to install without an installer?
<cub> ahaa
<cub> no I don't know how to install then, but I could learn
<cub> got to prepare dinner for the family though .. bbl
<DalekSec> So basically it goes like this, you partition the disk however you want it, use unsquashfs to unsquash the filesystem onto the new partition, remove casper, install grub to the MBR, add a user, and setup fstab.
<DalekSec> K, coolio.  (I could just plop ubiquity in pretty easily too.)
<zequence> OvenWerks: I don't remember much of the local build server stuff, so anything that is on that page is what I can offer right now
<zequence> On the new ISO - I think we might need to reconsider how that should be done. From what I see there is no way to simply use a meta for a desktop - unless perhaps using lxde instead of lubuntu, since lubuntu-core is too basic for our useage
<zequence> So, we might end up constructing our own custom DE. And, in that case, we might as well go with either LXDE of XFCE as both are pretty light in that respect
<zequence> I'm sure other DEs could be made pretty minimal too
<zequence> Not sure how we can use existing flavor setups the best way. It seems there is a slight problem with the fact that you will end up with a lot of sessions
<zequence> I think in some way it would be most true for our cause to base on other flavors completely, and add our stuff on top
<zequence> However, if we are to have ONE custom DE, it should really fill a purpose - offer something that the other setups don't
<zequence> Like, super great preformance and no annoyance 
<zequence> I believe that would be very appreciated for serious audio production, but also for other multimedia, like video
<zequence> Both LXDE and XFCE are good candidates for that
<elfy> zequence: does this list look about right? http://pastebin.com/nwDfV2JU
<zequence> elfy: Sure
<zequence> elfy: jackd is a meta for both jackd1 and jackd2 though
<zequence> jackd2 is default
<zequence> It's what we ship
<elfy> ok
<zequence> But, jackd1 is interesting too
<DalekSec> Technically you can have yout seed dep on the xubuntu or lubuntu seeds, but if I understand correctly that's not what you'd be looking for.
<elfy> I'll get some sort of cross reference going for it all
<zequence> DalekSec: That is how I would like to offer existing flavors  in the future. Depending on the desktop metas for other flavors, and adding our stuff on top
<zequence> DalekSec: Additionally, possibly keeping our own DE which would be a bit more minimal - if there is a significant upside doing thing
<zequence> doing that (not thing)
<zequence> elfy: It's a great start anyway
<elfy> it'll be a better start when I've got existing testcase bugs against them :p
<zequence> DalekSec: One alternative is to simply copy everything in an existing flavor and remove artwork and default settings packages, replacing those with our own
<DalekSec> Mhmm, there's that too.
<DalekSec> More to maintain.
<zequence> Not so much brainwork though. 
<zequence> Just a matter of syncing changes, and most importantly before alphas and betas and final releases
<zequence>  The most extreme case would be to offer an existing flavor as is, but with our menu, and additional optional packages
<zequence> ..without our artwork even
<zequence> But, only for installtion options that require internet
<zequence> Not what we have on our ISO, or there is no point with having an ISO
<zequence> In the long run, I would like us to be better integrated with all of Ubuntu, so that you can add our stuff easily from any flavor
<zequence> Mostly, that is about making sure realtime privilege works on any flavor and that one does not need to know what a kernel is in order to get low latency
<zequence> So, something you can pick from a Software Center, or any other package installing tool
<zequence> Still, there is a purpose for a hard core DE setup for a lot of workflows
<zequence> I'm considering many options right now. not sure at all what is absolutely the best. Hope we can find out during this cycle, or at least during the next two years before the next LTS
<OvenWerks> elfy your list looks fine, but we should probably prioritize it. For example, it is probably best if ardour works even if hexter doesn't (hm hexter is not in your list).
<elfy> OvenWerks: yea - my immediate plan is to get a list - there are already bugs tagged studio in testcase
<OvenWerks> Also I think it would be great if we could find out good testing for the non-audio applications as a priority just because the the audio stuff tends to get tested more thoughly because we are audio folk first.
<elfy> once I've done that basic list - I'll get it on a wiki somewhere - then people can weight things however
<OvenWerks> good
<elfy> I'm just trying to help get a framework together and moving on writing things
<elfy> hope to get that bit done in the next day or so - then 'you' can look at it 
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am thinking the configure step in the live iso build is the one I should look through.
<elfy> I'll also send a mail to the list - I'd guess there are people out there that would like to help studio - but don't code etc, this would be a way to help - it's exactly how I got involved with Xubuntu
<OvenWerks> elfy: Ya, there are also people who read mail but don't join here
<OvenWerks> Also people who don't leave irc running all the time.
<elfy> yep
<OvenWerks> zequence: It would not be hard to set up a "session manager" Bad name as it is already used :)  that manages what sessions are available as part of either/or -install or -controls
<OvenWerks> I think the user would need to know that in any case changes made to the DE when logged in to KDE (as an example) would effect the ubuntustudio session if it is based on KDE on that machine.
<OvenWerks> Just as with xfce and studio now. (I see my kudge to removed the xfce session was removed :)
<OvenWerks> The other possiblilty is to just work with the session that is already there and make our session a link to the standard one.
<OvenWerks> zequence: perhaps the user should be offered the choice of setting up a new user just for media production so their current session can remain untouched.
<OvenWerks> zequence: now that I have a new up to date machine, I have yet to try gnome3/unity and set them up for audio work. I have been so disappointed in the past as to have little interest.
<OvenWerks> zequence: (just spraying my thoughts out as they come) On our DE-only ISO, I would prefer to have the same DE as the Full ISO if we can get xfce to work lite. I notice the lubuntu-minimal install cuts out a lot of applications that are normally considered part of lubuntu (even lxterm) and the same could be done with xfce.
<OvenWerks> This would save the confusion of the user thinking they would get a different DE just by installing from a different ISO :)
<OvenWerks> Though in retrospect they would be getting a different DE than the live DE-only ISO anyway unless we left an option on the install to have a stripped DE installed.
<OvenWerks> zequence: It may be worth while to have an option for a stripped DE. Most people who would do so probably want to use their favourite DE and so would do it them selves from scratch (including choosing their own apps) so we are not using them as a focus. However, there may be a group of people who like the idea of a minimal DE but are not sure how to do it.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am slowly working my way through the build of an ISO image.
<OvenWerks> The first problem I have is that I end up with a bunch of files named livecd..* but no ISO image. It appears this is a result of lb-config being called with --binary none rather than ISO. I am having to see where that is set up. None of the pages in the resources seem to give a clue about this.
<OvenWerks> (some other options are ext2, ext3, etc.)
<OvenWerks> The seed source is hard coded in one of the scripts... even down to which seed file to use for which distro. As this seems to be the package that is used to spin all our ISOs (our being Ubuntu's) I am pretty sure we will have to have cooperation from the right people to set up a new spin. So it may be worth writing out a document about the reasons and use cases (the right word escapes me just now) to justify it's existance.
<OvenWerks> Using the words "we have been asked if" and "we have a use for" would be a part of that, I would guess.
<OvenWerks> Interesting, the ISO build will not allow more than one kernel :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-25
<OvenWerks> zequence: It seems that xubuntu has the same problem with the xfce session we do. (lubuntu has extra sessions too)
<OvenWerks> Unfortunatly the session is set up by xfce4-session rather than xfce4-settings. Otherwise we could replace xfce4-settings with ubuntustudio-settings
<OvenWerks> Found one of my problems with the ISO build... Lack of space on this partition :P Time to change fstab
<OvenWerks> BTW I am also downloading vanila and ubuntu-gnome to try our packages against
<elfy> zequence: I've built a wiki - sent a mail to the list re that and getting people on board. 
<OvenWerks> zequence: played some more with a local ISO build. It does not make an ISO image.
<OvenWerks> zequence: the export line should just need BINARYFORMAT=iso added to it, but I get this: E: /usr/share/syslinux/themes/ubuntu-oneiric - no such directory.
<OvenWerks> zequence: So something does not get set right. Ubuntu doesw not use that part of things anyway acording to: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/live-build/+question/200206 see answer $6
<OvenWerks> zequence: so I would guess they have not bothered to update something in there.
<OvenWerks> zequence: also it may not make it EFI-able even if it did work.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-18
<OvenWerks> zequence: ubuntustudio-menudoes not seem to have been properly released... or the released version was not put back into https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-menu/ubuntustudio-menu
<OvenWerks> The changelog says unrelesed since 2014-03-28 but the changes listed seem to be in the trusty menu.
<OvenWerks> *unreleased
<OvenWerks> The uploaded version is correct. It appears whoever uploaded it changed their local branch correctly and created the src package and uploaded it but never pushed the branch back.
<OvenWerks> micahg: ^^^ should I fake it?
<micahg> OvenWerks: that's what I usually do, apply the diff to the branch and commit/tag
<OvenWerks> micahg: where would I get the diff from? would it just be the changelog?
<micahg> pull-lp-source ubuntustudio-menu and diff the bzr branch against it
<OvenWerks> micahg: it just seems to be the change of the word UNRELEASED to trusty.
<micahg> against the unpacked source
<micahg> ah, if that's it, just fake it :)
<OvenWerks> Even the time stamp was not changed.
<micahg> certainly makes it easier
<OvenWerks> ok will do. I will have to make sure I check cahngelogs before I start tweaking...
<micahg> diff from 0.18 to 0.19: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/171354168/ubuntustudio-menu_0.18_0.19.diff.gz
<OvenWerks> micahg: So do I need to roll back 0.19 Unreleased to 0.18 and add the diff?
<micahg> no
<OvenWerks> Good
<micahg> if you want to know if there's any difference, alternatively, you can bzr diff -rtag:0.18.. , output that to a file and diff against that change 
<OvenWerks> Looking through the diff you gave me, it is just the one word.
<micahg> ok
<OvenWerks> commit comment of "release version 0.19" is ok?
<OvenWerks> micahg: ^
<micahg> debcommit -r would do that for you
<micahg> (and tag at the same time)
<OvenWerks> Ah, already edited the file.
<micahg> no, that's with the edited file :)
<OvenWerks> right that worked just fine.
<OvenWerks> micahg: Thank you for the help.
<micahg> sure, no problem
<OvenWerks> now I can make the fix I wanted to in thge first place
<micahg> let me know if you need sponsorship
<OvenWerks> Ok, I will. I am just starting though with fixes there are some changes that need a bit more discussion before I am finished.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-20
<OvenWerks> zequence: Re: categories. Ardour as it comes from the ardour site has: AudioVideo, Audio, AudioEditing and Recorder
<OvenWerks> as it comes in ubuntu (via debian of course) only has AudioVideo and Audio.
<holstein> how do other folks deal with this?
<holstein> just break the standards?
<OvenWerks> I am guessing Lintian complains about non-standard words
<holstein> seems like, it *has* to be common enough to get the desktop standards to have catagories for pro-audio
<OvenWerks> holstein: it is what we do.
<holstein> seemes like, it could be implemented up there, then, the creators of the applications can do what they want
<holstein> of course, i suppose, this is just going to sunset, anyways
<OvenWerks> I don't know where to go with it though.
<holstein> unity doesnt really follow this kind of thing.. and gnome..
<holstein> OvenWerks: i know, right?!
<holstein> seems like others must have this issue
<OvenWerks> Yes but a lot of people have walked away from those just because of no menu.
<holstein> mythbuntu..
<holstein> sure would be nice to maintain the menu *and* do whatever else they are doing
<OvenWerks> Gnome now has a menu as a module
<holstein> i just havent configured gnome enough to know
<OvenWerks> look at KDE though, you can have your choice of doing app finding in about 5 ways
<holstein> yup
<holstein> not sure if thats "better", but, its nice to have the options
<OvenWerks> including the old win95 style xdg menu.
<OvenWerks> xfce has a lot more users too.
<holstein> xfce, lxde, mate..
<holstein> cinammon, too.. right?
<holstein> it has a menu?
<OvenWerks> yup.
<OvenWerks> All of those things showed up because of gnomes loosing the menu.
<holstein> i think personally, its a bit like google gmail.. folders vs labels
<holstein> its nice to have things able to be in multiple catagories
<holstein> but, it certainly wouldnt hurt to have sane defaults
<holstein> and it seems like we should be able to have that represented upstream.. get the desktop standards we need
<holstein> then, ardour could just be marked as they want it to be
<OvenWerks> The thing is sane should be desided by someone who uses the applications.
<holstein> agreed
<holstein> its worth getting right, for sure
<OvenWerks> I think a lot of these things are decided by desktop browser users and gamers
<OvenWerks> I think there are over ten sub game categories
<holstein> OvenWerks: is that in the standards?
<holstein> if so, i think we can get what we need there, as well.. wont hurt to ask, for sure..
<holstein> it wont help with what you are doing now.. but, it would help in the future
<holstein> thats the kind of thing i would expect to take a cycle or 2.. but, if it were done properly, then, creators of the apps just flag as they want
<holstein> should "just work", like the games do or can
<OvenWerks> there are 12 game subs in the spec.
<OvenWerks> 13 for office
<holstein> this is something i should be able to take on.. at least finding out who to talk to up there
<holstein> i'll let you know directly if i get any action
<OvenWerks> 7 for audio... 
<OvenWerks> I think xdg has a mailing list.
<OvenWerks> The 7 for audio are so so. Tuner is not to useful for us.
<holstein> TBH, it breaks pretty quickly for me
<holstein> the menu
<holstein> i have a hard time finding things like brasero
<holstein> if im burning an iso.. a distro iso, for example.. thats not an audio task
<holstein> not that folks burn iso's to optical media anymore ;)
<OvenWerks> But I think some things from non-audio might be useful too...
<holstein> but, you know what i mean.. putting audacity in a "workflow" for more than one thing might make more sense
<holstein> yup
<OvenWerks> people selling something use cd/dvd
<holstein> or, inkscape for a logo, or cd graphic
<holstein> its the reason why folks are leaving the menu. and i get that
<OvenWerks> Well it seems we are merging some of the graphics things.
<holstein> still, sane, relevant defaults would be fine
<holstein> not "tuner"
<OvenWerks> music is under education, but not audio...
<holstein> yeah, thats for someone who went there and made it happen.. liks solfege.. or tuxguitar..
<OvenWerks> ImageProcessing is under Education or Science
<holstein> who knows
<OvenWerks> Math is under education too... so there the libre spreadsheet
<holstein> we will have that issue as well
<OvenWerks> education has a lot, 25 or 30
<holstein> if we have "audio" - "production" and then, a video production, and have something that needs to be in both places
<holstein> i know mate plans to have some "spins" as well
<holstein> one for podcasting
<holstein> live streaming..
<holstein> we should keep an eye on that, and let some of that go, on our end
<OvenWerks> That would be audacity :)  
<holstein> a new audacity, as well
<holstein> i havent checked it out..
<OvenWerks> Does it do jack right?
<OvenWerks> Jack is audacity's biggest stummble in my opinion
<holstein> not sure.. im adding the daily ppa right now
<holstein> well, i always agrue, if one is using audacity, and jack, then, they need to likely be using ardour instead
<holstein> or, they dont really need jack
<OvenWerks> pulse is known for just dropping samples it can't deal with silently
<OvenWerks> or being out of sync with itself.
<holstein> ive never had any issues, but, i dont use it that way much
<OvenWerks> for recording where ardour is too much, mhwaveedit works great.
<holstein> if im tracking something, im using jack and ardour/mixbus
<holstein> agreed.. mhwaveedit is nice and light
<OvenWerks> It is normally one of the first things I add to STudio.
<holstein> i used to use it a lot
<OvenWerks> Audacity has a few nice noise removal tools
<OvenWerks> at least better than anything else in the Linux world that I can find.
<holstein> they supposedly got better
<OvenWerks> So I use Audacity on files I got from elsewhere.
<holstein> yup.. as an editor
<OvenWerks> I still miss GCDMaster.
<OvenWerks> I have yet to get as good results from Ardour
<OvenWerks> There are a lot of audio apps that are just AudioVideo, Audio
<OvenWerks> MIDI shows up as well on anything that has one line of MIDI code in it  :P
<holstein> a midi catagory would be tough..
<holstein> if someone wanted to use qtractor as their DAW, or whatever
<OvenWerks> If sequencer was there as well
<OvenWerks> It would still be doable.
<OvenWerks> AudioVideoEditing is fine if there is also audio or video.
<OvenWerks> Audio is not-video
<OvenWerks> Guitarix is AudioVideo, Midi but no Audio :P
<holstein> ;)
<OvenWerks> zequence: MenuLibre so long as you don't finalize anything with it is pretty good for looking at Categories. It shows the Categories of any application in the menu.
<OvenWerks> zequence: MenuLibre shows up in our menu as Accessories -> Menu Editor
<sakrecoer> maybe i should ask in #blender if anyone can contribute with a scrtipt.py video entry launcher?
<sakrecoer> it can't ber very hard.. but i know close to nothing in python and the blender log isn't showing what happens when i change the mode...
<sakrecoer> i think i found how :)
<sakrecoer> yee! dead easy :)
<sakrecoer> i saved an empty .blend in VSE mode. and launched it from the terminal
<sakrecoer> $~ blender vse.blend and voila!
<sakrecoer> hmm... acutaly... thats not that great....
<sakrecoer> if the user hits save the startup file is dead...
<sakrecoer> solly solly :( false alarm
<zequence> sakrecoer: Can you start it in video mode using command line options?
<sakrecoer> zequence: i'm investigating it... there is this python string displayed when you hover the mode selector: bpy.data.screens["Video Editing"].name
<sakrecoer> but i don't really know what to do with it :D
<sakrecoer> i'm thinking i will try to find a way on my own and ask in #blender if i don't succeed...
<zequence> OvenWerks: The next step in this whole thing is to make changes to all multimedia packages upstream (I have access to the code), and make sure the categories are all good
<zequence> ..well, I have access to the debian-multimedia repos, but not upstream for each application
<zequence> We need to start a kind of campaign to get all that fixed
<zequence> Also, we should try adding new categories to the freedesktop standard
<zequence> But, there's much more to do, actually
<zequence> How do different Debian based application search/install tools filter applications?
<zequence> In Ubuntu, this is fairly close to how desktop files are displayed in the menu
<zequence> In the long run, the menu will become more of an obstacle than a helper though, and I feel like the whole desktop category part will be outdated
<zequence> So, it may be better to develop our own application starter tool. One which in the long run can also work as a workflow-app, not just a static menu
<zequence> Application starter/installer/workflow app
<zequence> It really depends on how far we want to go. I really would like to sort all of this out at the root, as much as possible. NOt only "within the family"
<zequence> "within the family" is not a job for Ubuntu Studio. There are other distros like that: AVLinux, KXStudio, to name two
<zequence> I keep realizing the same problem with customization. The more you customize, the more it will only work under certain circumstances. 
<zequence> And, that is not good.
<sakrecoer> yeah... i feel you haha! i've come to a point where i feel a bit lost in translations...
<sakrecoer> lunch, work and a nap on that and i'm sure something interesting will happen :D
<zequence> sakrecoer: It's not as simple as it seems, for sure
<zequence> And, since we do have an opportunity to make something really worth while, we shouldn't be too hasty either
<sakrecoer> yeah! wise words zequence! :) nor lazy neither hasty! :) i like that state of mind!
<sakrecoer> I'm off! looking forward to read you!
<zequence> OvenWerks: Would be interesting to see how far we can go with just using the include/exclude commands in the menu file for the categories
<zequence> Also means that we probably need to make some adjustments to desktop files
<zequence> OvenWerks: lxqt, if you want to have a try beforehand http://sourceforge.net/projects/manjarolinux/files/community/LXQT/2015.02/
<OvenWerks> zequence: I found that include/exclude did not work for all DEs all the time. I had to use a lot of and and not to get it to work on lxde (I think was the hard one). But yes, the concept is right, with proper categories, it should be possible to filter audiovideo, audiovideoeditor into video or audio so long as the audio or video category is included.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it should be possible to take something that has audio and uility and make it appear in an audio submenu and not in accessories.
<OvenWerks> One has to get those categories into the desktop file to begin with though.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, but getting the categories into desktop files is not a huge problem for us. At least not, theoretically.
<zequence> We need to have good reason to change a lot of sources upstream for that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-21
<zequence> ardour3 is in Wily, btw
<zequence> v 4, that is :)
<astraljava> Oh that's sweet, as soon as I get another machine in my hands, I'm gonna play with it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-22
<OvenWerks> zequence: I would like to see eq10q 5.1 (in Vivid) back ported to LTS.
<OvenWerks> The latest is 7.1, but it requires newer libs than LTS has. 5.1 builds fine with no errors in trusty.
<OvenWerks> The version in trusty (1.2 I think) has wonky GUI stuff. Controls covered by graphics and stuff. Also 5.1 comes with 4 eq sizes (1,4,6 and 10) plus comp and gate.
<zequence> OvenWerks: We have this old team, with a PPA where we could test backports https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-backports/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
<zequence> We don't have a routine with backports yet
<zequence> We could also just have a PPA in the dev team for that
<zequence> But, backports could be extended to non-devs though
<zequence> And, the bug creator could be the team - so the whole team is responsible
<zequence> OvenWerks: There's a tool for requesting backports called "requestbackport". 
<zequence> And, you'll need to backport from one release back to the next, and then to the next
<zequence> Vivid -> Utopic -> Trusty
<zequence> Utopic will EOL in a couple of months, and I think the backport could take a few weeks to go through. Perhaps three?
<zequence> By the time you request a backport from Utopic to Trusty, there may no longer be a Trusyt
<zequence> So, not sure which is best here
<zequence> Perhaps the devs are more open to direct backports to LTS these days
<zequence> I could look this up today, and set something up. We probably want to backport more
<zequence> Wow, I'm getting a job rescuing someones Ubuntu installation - for money!!!
<zequence> Strange new world
<zequence> OvenWerks: Seems useless to backport to Utopic, so I'm asking around if we can circumvent that
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think we can just create our own backport bugs, and subscribe the Ubuntu backports team to them. We might as well do a bunch at the same time, so we get it all done at once
<zequence> And, we should do this every time there is a new release out
<zequence> OvenWerks: The biggest problem with backporting from Vivid to Trusty directly is if someone upgrades from Trusty to Utopic after having installed some backport
<zequence> I didn't think about that
<OvenWerks> zequence: what if we just run an "update" ppa and let people add that to their upgrader?
<OvenWerks> We could effectively keep updates for LTS +everything inbetween even though they are not supported.
<OvenWerks> If we mean for people to use the LTS, we have to keep the tools updated... though I guess we also need to be aware of changes that could break started projects :P
<micahg> zequence: Utopic will be EOL in about 2 months
<micahg> ah, you said that :)
<micahg> I can process any backports you need next week (someone still has to do the testing though)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-23
<zequence> micahg: Thanks. That would be great.
<zequence> We just need to decide what should be backported. I'm sure there are a bunch of things.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think it would be ok for us to have a PPA, but not in a way that it would be a default source
<zequence> I'm 50/50 on having that as an easy option from a graphical tool, such as -controls
<zequence> Depends on what the PPA ends up being
<zequence> Bug fixes should always be done in main archives
<zequence> And, backports will affect not only Ubuntu Studio, but all Ubuntu
<OvenWerks> zequence: I agree. Maybe PPA first for testing and quick release followed by backport... Not that we move quick on anything.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-23
<sakrecoer> autumna, OvenWerks: what is the name of the file to remove after the whisker menu is broken?
<autumna> I put it in the bug report, one sec
<autumna> (which reminds me I need to recheck and report back to the bug)
<sakrecoer> thanks autumna :)
<autumna> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/menulibre/+bug/1362452
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1362452 in menulibre (Ubuntu) "Categories disappear after editing" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<autumna> ~/.config/menus/xfce-applications.menu.bck
<autumna> ~/.config/menus/applications-merged/user-ubuntustudio-audioproduction.menu
<autumna> ~/.config/menus/gnome-applications-merged/user-ubuntustudio-audioproduction.menu
<autumna> reverts the menu back to correct structure.
<autumna> sakrecoer: see above
<autumna> (realized I forgot to tag you)
<sakrecoer> ah ok, i thought it was this one: bug #1430571
<ubottu> bug 1430571 in Ubuntu Studio "ubuntu studio menu items disappear after adding new launcher" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1430571
<autumna> sakrecoer: possibly same bug presenting itself in different ways in different versions of the menu? I am not certain. I filed that comment in latter a while ago. :)
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> i think i will remove all the subteams from ubuntustudio-documentation except ubuntustudio-core and apply that as a group with wiki.ubuntu.com editing
<sakrecoer> permissions even during lockdown
<sakrecoer> :) yeah, there are 2missing  '"' there :) 
 * sakrecoer copied the xubuntu rt ticket :p
<OvenWerks> .config/menus should be empty
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: you may also like to check .local/share/applications/ for desktop files you did not put there...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer, autumna: the menu config files are (supposed to be) read from system to system stubs to user, with the last one read overrides anything read before.
<OvenWerks> menulibre assumes the system file resides in /etc/xdg/menus/ This is the default... but the appliacations menu spec in there is broken (Bugged and told "won't fix"). It should not matter, because they should be reading what the menu does which is /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menus/ as the top directory. This is set by the session.
<OvenWerks> menulibre then makes mistake 2 (in my opinion) by replacing the whole system menu with it's own. They do this because... as stated above, the default menu spec is broken (two line fix BTW) and won't be fixed.
<OvenWerks> Because it replaces the system file completely, any subsequent changes to the system menu will not show up. As an example adding wine normally adds a menu stub and there are other packages that add menu stubbs as well. Alacarte, is also broken... but at least does things right in making changes. I would choose alacarte over menulibre... but would actually prefer not to ship either one.
<OvenWerks> For reference, there are three system menu config files that are correct: xubuntu (not xfce), ubuntustudio and KDE (kde has always been correct... probably because they were very involved in making the spec in the first place) The rest are broken... including the example in the xdg spec which would be ok if the menu contructor followed the rest of the spec... but does not make sense from a programming POV.
<zequence> OvenWerks: You've been workin on controlling ardour using OSC, correct? Is it for personal use, or are you developing it?
<OvenWerks> The freedesktop menu construction spec says in effect that there is a default file which can be overridden by the session file, the stubs directory files /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/ overrides whatever has been read so far... and then the user's changes override everything that has allready been read.
<OvenWerks> zequence: developing.
<OvenWerks> it should be a part of Ardour 5
<zequence> I was just looking at ways to control ardour remotely, and came to the conclusion that a touch screen with OSC control may be the optimal solution
<OvenWerks> zequence: look at open stage control in particular.
<OvenWerks> open stage control runs as a web server and any tablet (or whatever) with chome works with it.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Oh, nice.
<OvenWerks> Open stage control handles OSC correctly and fully.
<OvenWerks> That is it handles /path, /path f, path ff or whatever.
<zequence> I was looking at making my own interface, if needed. Using javascript for sending the OSC messages
<OvenWerks> A lot of the android/iOS controllers only do /path param
<zequence> Oh, ok
<OvenWerks> zequence: cool.
<OvenWerks> zequence: the last few days I have been taking the osc branch and merging it against the VCA2 branch which will also show up in A5
<zequence> What's VCA2?
<OvenWerks> zequence: the most up to date docs for OSC (in A5) are here: http://scott.cbbs.org/using-control-surfaces/controlling-ardour-with-osc/
<OvenWerks> VCA2 adds master controllers that can control other strips.
<OvenWerks> like groups but can be nested.
<OvenWerks> They were called VCAs in analog mixers and are sometimes called DCAs in digital mixers
<zequence> I was looking into the ardour manual, and there did seem to be quite a lot of support for OSC already
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok, so channels can be hidden inside the group controller graphically as well?
<zequence> Like a folder?
<zequence> That would be a nice addition.
<OvenWerks> not really. But channels could already be hidden anyway.
<zequence> Yes, but then they can't be edited
<OvenWerks> True.
<OvenWerks> Paul is doing with consultation with a few people. The main reviewer does live show recording on a SSL console, so Ardour's VCA ends up following that and Harrison large format consoles.
<OvenWerks> VCAs don't control as much as groups can control, mostly level and mute (and solo when it gets fixed)
<OvenWerks> the VCA has a button (spill) that only shows the strips that VCA controls.
<zequence> Well, not sure how handy that will tbh, since you can just use buses right now for that
<zequence> Not sure what the logic is
<zequence> I was looking at hardware controllers, a
<zequence> ..and 1) too expensive 2) not enough features
<sakrecoer> we now have edit permission in through ~ubuntustudio-documentation
<sakrecoer> i added autumna krytarik OvenWerks and cfhowlett to it :)
<sakrecoer> permission in *wiki
<zequence> That was quick!
<sakrecoer> yeah :) nice!
<OvenWerks> zequence: different workflows for different people. VCAs can do things like VCA1 controls channels 13579 and VCA2 controls 234678. Busses can't do that. 
 * OvenWerks is not sure of the practical use for that.
<OvenWerks> It is possible to set up mute groups though, which could be very useful in live situations.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Sure buses can do that. You can route a channel to as many buses you want.
<zequence> Multiple groups for single channels would do the same as VCA, but that doesn't work practically, of course
<zequence> ..for many of the controls
<zequence> Let me retract the first sentence there
<zequence> The VCA would also control the output for all the different buses
<zequence> Yeah, maybe that kind of thing gets interesting in situations where you have really complex channel setups, like big movie productions or something
<autumna> thanks sakrecoer
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-24
<OvenWerks> To those who might care :) I just saw the bug with backport Ardour 4.7 to X and T. Sounds ok to me. I would however advise against anything higher. The next likely Ardour version will be 5.0 which will have another session file change. That is 5.* ardour sessions will not work with A4.7. Ardour 5 breaks OSC control from 4.7 as well (and gains much better feedback as well as banking)
<OvenWerks> hmm, Bug 1585007 ... Needed Carla sooner it seems... There have been some new additions to LV2 in common use. This may be the cause here.
<ubottu> bug 1585007 in Ubuntu Studio "gxtuner hangs lv2rack" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1585007
<OvenWerks> lv2rack has not been maintained for years.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Backports should not be confused with updates. Backports may include the very latest.
<zequence> And, should
<zequence> Updates means bug fixes only
<zequence> And exception to that is Firefox
<zequence> So, now that we have backports happening, we need to educate our users so they have the opportunity to turn off backports
<zequence> Actually, we could do a backport for -controls which does a one time information for users during login.
<zequence> I'll have a look at that after I've finished my education, at around 10th of June.
<cub> But OvenWerks bug 1585007, does it affect other version than 15.04?*
<ubottu> bug 1585007 in Ubuntu Studio "gxtuner hangs lv2rack" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1585007
<cub> As 15.04 is EOL...
<zequence> We should even add the possibility to control backports during installation, as it will be more important in the future, but again, I will not have time to work on that until later
<zequence> sakrecoer: A new feature definition https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/InformUsersAboutBackports
<zequence> sakrecoer: Also, I would not add particular work items for specific packages that we will be adding here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-y-development, since we will add all at once. WOuld only require one line. The packages are 
<zequence> ..listed here, as you know https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelection/yakkety
<zequence> sakrecoer: Another detail - you should add the LP team that is responsible for a work item at the beginning of each line
<zequence> sakrecoer: Like so [ubuntustudio-dev]
<zequence> When someone wants to do that work item, they replace the team name with their own LP nick
<zequence> ..and changes TODO into INPROGRESS, and finally to DONE
 * zequence wasn't looking into each blueprint before, and is seeing some weirdness there, but it's no big deal.
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you wish, you can create a new blueprint for InformUsersAboutBackports and add the 2-3 things to be done as work items
<zequence> Most probably I will be doing the work on -controls and ubiquity, so I will not need work items, but if you want to control what is going to be done during this cycle, and approve it, the blueprint is a nice way to do that
<zequence> The hard part is formulazing the feature additions/removals into specific work items. 
<zequence> But, for each work item there should be a longer more detailed explanation in a feature definition page
<zequence> So, that is how the two should work together
<zequence> Ok, I really need to focus on some things, so I will be offline most of the time the next few days
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-26
<zequence> sakrecoer: Just watned to say something about the youtube video tutorials. Quite possible to publish free license tutorials on Youtube, so that is not argument for/against
<zequence> Besides, one can do both
<zequence> And, let's face it - youtube is where most people go to find them.
<zequence> This is not GNU. It's Ubuntu Studio, and our aim is not to be GNU, but to promote free software. And, using Youtube does not pose a problem for us, license wise.
<zequence> There has never been any plans on using archive.org. Only Youtube
<zequence> So, that has to be discussed before just putting it there, in a blueprint.
<autumna> sakrecoer: I am a bit hesitant to put specific items on the blueprint. ideas are good, but ideally decisions of what to do must be more changes that are decided through personas and scenarios, not independent ideas, but it is your call overall
<autumna> (this is strictly related to content obviously)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-27
<cub> I agree with zequence on the video thing. We want to reach new users, show there is another way than windows or mac os for creativity. Hiding the tutorials in an obscure place does not help that. If we want to reach people youtube is it. Maybe a far reach second Google + but I suppose Google will kill off that service soon enough.
<cub> We could use both archive.org and youtube, unless it will provide double work as formats differ or something. If we choose only one, I think archive.org is the wrong way to go for our purpose.
<sakrecoer> zequence, cub: i say we do both. archive.org is not an obscure place. its the last rampart of ethical free content hosting.
<sakrecoer> i am very reluctant to let youtube aka google use ubuntu studio as a recruiting team for their services
<sakrecoer> when people search for documentation, archive search results get higher up on every other serach engine then google.
<cub> sakrecoer: i rest my case. ;) If the last rampart of ethical free content is not an obscure place, i don't know what is. Seriously though, if you are a new or potential user of linux and Ubuntu Studio. I think it's very unlikely someone will start looking at archive.org for help. Sure, if we link from the homepage but if they are anything like my friends they google or search on youtube.
<sakrecoer> cub: n0b will first look at our website or a search engine. which renders the argument of "obscurity" obsolete
<sakrecoer> the internet is an obscure place :)
<sakrecoer> obvisouly, we we host it on both, youtube links will show first. way before our own website or wiki
<sakrecoer> *if we host it o both youtube and archive
<cub> I'm not so sure. my experience from customer service is that people try google before the actual site or help pages
<sakrecoer> and google will tell them to go to archive
<cub> yes, both we'll catch most
<sakrecoer> unless we put it on youtube also
<sakrecoer> then google will say: "come to me you little computer illetarate n00b, buy a chrome book!"
<sakrecoer> :D
<cub> but if only one, I think archive.org is a great idea but not so good for reaching people. Other than people who are already savvy enough to figure out stuff on their own, hence no need for tutorials.
<sakrecoer> how is it harder to wathc a video on archive.org than youtube? :D
<cub> it's hard to find and people are used to certain platforms
<sakrecoer> i don't buy that argument, why is it harder to google archive.org than youtube? obviously, like i wrote: if we host the content on both youtube and archive, people will go to youtube, because google will prioritize it.
<cub> No, people will you youtube because people are used to youtube. 
<sakrecoer> youtube will also serve our users with a sweet windows10 commercial while they "wait" for their content to load :D it is up to us to make it easily reached.
<cub> what's the issue with youtube? It's not like we force anyone to buy a chromebook or even register for an account?
<sakrecoer> want to monetize the tutorials? that is my issue: commercials, very limited choice of licenses, bad ethics, evil cookies, tracking, population control database. is that something we want to promote? using youtube is promoting youtube
<cub> There's a reason Gnu is not bigger today. It's called marketing.
<sakrecoer> hahahaha
<sakrecoer> not big? gnu? hehe... maybe stallman isn't very big, yes :D
<cub> no we shouldn't monetize. I don't think we're even allowed to monteize anything related to the Ubuntu brand
<cub> well promoting Ubuntu Studio on media noone uses is just waste of time imho
<cub> In that case we should host all videos on our own site.
<cub> and people will watch all un-official ubuntu studio videos on youtube instead.
<sakrecoer> its not promoting it on media that nobody knows, its using a video host to inbed in our homepage
<sakrecoer> also, if great marketing is putting windows10 commerial at the intro of our tutorials, then i'm sorry but i don't think it is that great
<sakrecoer> fact is, we have 0 videos on youtube, but people are still using ubuntu studio
<cub> but that's not the case.
<sakrecoer> what is not the case cub?
<cub> there will not be a win10 commercial at the beginning of every ubuntu studio video
<cub> yes there are still people using ubuntu studio. But if there were more help availble where tutorials are a great way, there might be much more users. Or happier users.
<sakrecoer> can you garantee that cub? also i think that it is the point with using creative common licenses: people can copy and redistribute. i'm way more comfortable with people uploading our videos to their channel then we doing it ourselves. or are we affraid of looosing a chance to get monetization on our tutorials? i realy don't get this eagerness of having stuff on youtube.
<cub> and there are loads of other videos both using ubuntu studio or showing how to use Ardour or kdenlive
<cub> sakrecoer: there is no chance of us monetizing on videos or anything related to the ubuntu studio brand. We are not allowed.
<sakrecoer> it was a rethorical question. i know that. so what is the point? if people think they should be on youtube, believe me, theyw ill upload them. archive has a "download video button"
<cub> I want stuff on youtube to reach users and potential users. Hiding it away on some maybe grand ethical place might feel good inside but my main point is to reach the actual users
<sakrecoer> also, it WILL be windOSx commercial at the begning, unless we tag it with "cute cats, puppies, aget slim fast" then it will be commecrial for underware and whiskas :D
<cub> that's why I said "do both"
<sakrecoer> yeah, i say, both is good, but it will render the archive version obsolete.
<cub> why?
<cub> as you said, if they don't want cat commercials they can go to archive.org
<sakrecoer> because google promotes itself first. i'm yet to read one tangible argument against using archive
<cub> but your argument has been that the users would find the videos thorugh the us homepage
<cub> and not using google.
<cub> because google is evil.
<sakrecoer> if they use google, they will find archive, unless the same video is on youtube
<cub> if you don't think we have an oppotunity to reach more people by using youtube is a tangible argument, then I don't know how convice you.
<sakrecoer> i say users will do that for us: put those tutorials on youtube. it will probably give us far more reach than we could by ourselves.
<sakrecoer> we would reach 32 users on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/ubuntustudiotube
<sakrecoer> i mean directly
<sakrecoer> all those that aren't subscirbed will have to websearch
<cub> subscribers doesn't equal viewers
<sakrecoer> so say 8 then :D
<cub> web search or youtube search or related videos
<cub> do you only watch videos you have subscribed to?
<cub> and if we actually posted some videos, both viewers and subscribers would go up
<cub> having 32 subscribers to a dead account is quite good.
<sakrecoer> go up for youtube, yes.
<sakrecoer> anyways, if you guys all want to have stuff there, fine :) but i'm not posting it myself there :D
<sakrecoer> also, the website should embed the archive version.
<cub> it depends what our objective is
<sakrecoer> our objective is amongst others to be an alternative.
<cub> are we going more GNU, debian, Stallman or do we want to grow the community?
<sakrecoer> haha! we keep going FOSS, just like we have all these years
<sakrecoer> i find that question of yours to be both unfair and besides the point cub
<sakrecoer> should i be ashamed to care about the integrity of our user base? i don't think using an alternative is risking our growth. on the contrary. most of our users come to us because they also want to break with the way things are taken for granted today, such as "you need facebook and youtube to exist in cyberspace"
<sakrecoer> i understand it is hard to break with the for having been there...
<sakrecoer> but someone has got to do it.
<sakrecoer> using platforms with recomendation systems is actualy conterproductive. as you say, there will be recomended videos, and lots of distraction arround every video up there. including things that will carry our viewers away.
<sakrecoer> consolidating our own channels is not = going dark. it is guiding the users on a red thread
<sakrecoer> google search will not omit our archive videops just because we don't put them on youtube.
<cub> I care about integrity. But I also compare what's really at stake and what is the gain.
<sakrecoer> please do cub, i'm reading :)
<sakrecoer> what is at stake? and what is the gain?
<cub> I also think Ubuntu Studio would need a clear vision and purpose which should be revisited at least every year. If we try to be everything for everyone I think we will struggle.
<sakrecoer> well... if something is everything for everyone (except that integrity detail) that would be youtube :D anyways, what is at stake and what is the gain?
<cub> we are not putting users into any danger of their minds or computers by having videos on youtube. But we reach millions more. It's not like we would use a service which incorporated spyware when downloading the video, such as sourceforge
<cub> nothing is at stake. That's my point. there is no danger with using youtube imho unless you're afraid they will start watching a tutorial on Ardour, see a win10 commercial and think Wait no I should by a new computer with windows 10 on it! I don't think that's really happening.
<sakrecoer> well... i beg to differ, what do you think the cookie youtube puts in your browser is, if not spyware?
<cub> Well this is Ubuntu Studio, not Tails Studio ...
<sakrecoer> sure, but it is also an ethical alternative to everything that google, microsoft and apple stands for
<cub> with your reasoning we should not be a part of the Ubuntu family at all, because Canonical is also evil
<sakrecoer> why don't we put the videos on microsofts video platform too? i mean, i for one think we should either be on well thought channels or ALL of them
<sakrecoer> that is you putting a reasoning in my head though, cub
<cub> I don't know about a microsoft platform
<cub> If we are going true ethical we need to re-evaluate a lot of the packages we include today.
<sakrecoer> .... and then i am the extreme one ? :D it seems we talk besides eachothers point....
<cub> which I think might be the wrong way to go. If it gets too hard to use people will revert to alternatives or back to windows and mac
<sakrecoer> nobody is making it _harder_ because a video is not on youtube. that is the illusion that youtube and facebook thrives on: no hands no chocolate :D
<sakrecoer> if someone misses the tutorials on youtube, they will put them there
<sakrecoer> and it will have the same impact as if we did it ourselves.
<cub> Well, I think it's a bit double-sided to argue ethical decisions on the one hand, but not on the other.
<sakrecoer> but sure, go ahead and upload them.
<sakrecoer> we should really be _creating_ those videos right now instead of having this conversation ;)
<cub> I don't think it's the same thing to have a decidated Ubuntu Studio channel than if people upload US videos randomly
<sakrecoer> cub, you are misseterpreting me to the fullest. i can't control what people do. if they want to see things on youtube sure! i do it too. i just think we should stay on the freeculture side of things
<cub> well, at work I can use IRC while working. Creating a video is much harder.
<sakrecoer> if something is working as we do, and really needs promotion, htat would be archive.org. that is all i say, except from what i wrote in those blueprints: that archive licensing model is far more flexible
<sakrecoer> now, if anybody in the team thinks it is mportant to have them videos on youtube, please go ahead and take the intiativ and do it. i won't stop it, but neither will i assist in the process of promoting them, since i will be busy spreading the archive link instead :D
<sakrecoer> autumna: i thought it would be easier to split up the "creating video tutorials" into the different tasks it actauly represents. but i'm open to suggestions as of how to put it otherwise.
<sakrecoer> not open too long tho, sine feature freeze was yesterday :D
<sakrecoer> autumna: oh... you are talking about the website blueprint? i didn't do that one actauly. just linked the old one to the new umbrella.
<sakrecoer> not sure i get your point... the blueprints aren't supposed to be a howto do things afaik, they are just a list of the steps that need to be accomplished.
<sakrecoer> autumna: but the whiteboard can host a more detailed description, idealy a link to a wiki page. let me put your excellent wiki page i there :)
<sakrecoer> .. already there :)
<sakrecoer> however autumna, you should be able to edit https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/website-overhaul-post-xenial since you are a member of ~ubuntustudio-website. at this point, preferably to assign yourself to any of the workitems or update the status. :)
<autumna> sakrecoer: I wasn't sure if I should be touching it. my point is that steps for content needs to be determined based on how the content is shaped. E.g. will we really need a download page? maybe all the information of download will end up being in front page. etc
<autumna> either way I'll tweak it a little later today
<sakrecoer> autumna: nice. that blueprint has been there for a while, so it might need some updating yes, although it is kindof late. But go on :) i'm just mentioning time so that we don't end up tuning blueprints instead of actualy doing that website overhaul :D
<autumna> no that's fair. its also that I am not certain if how important it will be to follow the blueprints
<sakrecoer> autumna: its more of a formality i believe :) but it also serves to have everyone on the same page, that is why i'd rather not see it being edited for ever :D
<autumna> sakrecoer: that's fair.
<sakrecoer> :) anyways, we do have the "artisticaly inclined" card to pull
 * sakrecoer wrote that right after pulling the http://www.soundarchive.online/whip-is-lashed-twice-2-1-10053-mp3-audio-sound-free-download-noises-activity/
<sakrecoer> y'all: this https://bugs.launchpad.net/trusty-backports/+bug/1584930
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1584930 in Xenial Backports "Please backport ardour 1:4.7~dfsg-1 (universe) from yakkety" [Undecided,In progress]
<sakrecoer> it is open to the team right?
<sakrecoer> i'm thinking about firing an email to the devel-list to gather some testing, but maybe it is some other teams duty?
<sakrecoer> i read it like an open invitation :)
<sakrecoer> re: video channels. following the "lets gather people" logic, i think we should also have a vimeo channel
<sakrecoer> ^^ zequence cub 
<cub> Yeah, I agree.
 * sakrecoer high-fives cub!
<sakrecoer> lets be everywhere!
<sakrecoer> i am creating a branch in ubuntusttudio-documentaiton for video tutorials
 * sakrecoer hopes zequence wants to do a catchy well harmonically thought and put 3-4 second audio jingle for it
<sakrecoer> https://vimeo.com/ubuntustudio
<zequence> sakrecoer: You know that youtube videos will be Creative Commons, right?
<zequence> If someone wants to post tutorial videos, they need to do it in all places.
<zequence> I'm not against either archive.org, or vimeo.com
<zequence> But, from my POW, youtube is where people are most likely to find our stuff, even if they aren't using Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> So, at least there
<zequence> Then, archive.org is a nice alternative to all those who want to be Richard Stallman strict
<zequence> Beyond that, it starts to get a bit tedious having to do so many uploads and maintain so many places
<zequence> sakrecoer: I was discussing with cfhowlett one day about maybe creating a user contest for the audio part
<sakrecoer> zequence, cub: i realy don't want to read those "stallman" alegories no more, thank you. a part from that, yeah, POW is a POW. It is a fact that it "is most likely to be found on youtube", because everybody goes with that logic. you may compare me with a freesoftware taliban, i still wont believe in the logic behind the MS-networks: i'm too much of a countercurrent DIY guy :D they only work becuase people go there. doing diffrerently is a 
<cub> sakrecoer: doing differently is a...?
<sakrecoer> ..dirty job
<cub> but yeah, if your reasoning is that google, youtube, MS, etc is evil and we should teach people better, then I will pull the Stallman card. I think there is way in the middle and being pragmatic.
<sakrecoer> please cub.... stop simplifying my point to good vs. evil
<sakrecoer> i can accept that i'm not expressing myself well, never the less, this discussion is meaningless
<sakrecoer> lets create those tutorials, then we will advise
<sakrecoer> i'll let anyone who wants upload wherever they want, heck: the one thing i will unnegiciable with is the mandatory creative common license
<cub> you don't like creative commons?
<sakrecoer> ..... do you realy think so? i love it. i say i wont let anyone upload it under another license then a creative common license...
<sakrecoer> my point in this issue is: ubuntu promotes freeculture, youtbe dosen't, archive does.
<sakrecoer> we are in a positino were we CAN make a difference, lets use it.
<sakrecoer> now if nobody think that is good idea: fine. lets do it the mainstrream way. end of discussion
<cub> I didn't understand "unnegiciable"
<sakrecoer> i apologize, i ment unnegociable
<sakrecoer> i wont negociate using another license then creative commons
<cub> google thought so too...;)
<sakrecoer> youtube offer such a license, so fine!
<sakrecoer> yeah eventualy initialy they did, and we are ubuntu studio ;) i won't say no more than this: stallman is cool, google is dool
<zequence> sakrecoer: I'm all for archive.org, not because of licensing, but because I know a few people will prefer to go there, and it's a good thing to promote
<zequence> But, not being present on youtube is kind of counter productive for this OS
<zequence> After all, the youtube videos will have a Creative Commons license
<zequence> So, the videos themselves are free
<zequence> I don't know much about the ads, since I never see them
<zequence> Don't know how that works
<zequence> I would rather they were not there, of course. And, I would rather most people were using something else
<zequence> But, then what is the argument for using Vimeo?
<sakrecoer> the same argument as for using youtube, minus the commercials...
<sakrecoer> ^^ zequence
<zequence> Don't think vimeo compares anywhere near Youtube, tbh.
<zequence> I'm not against that either, just wondering what purpose it would fill to upload to both youtube and vimeo
<sakrecoer> well, why only to youtube? :D its a moment 22 :D
<zequence> No, that is not what I said
<zequence> I said, why to vimeo, if we would already be uploading to both youtube and archive.org
<sakrecoer> me neither...
<sakrecoer> all i am saying is that archive is closer to ubuntu philopsphy than youtube
<zequence> Sure
<sakrecoer> but everyone keeps syaing that "if we don't have youtube we dissapear"
<zequence> And, as we have already both agreed on, we can do both
<zequence> But, why vimeo?
<sakrecoer> why youtube?
<sakrecoer> its the same question
<sakrecoer> ask frenh people what video site they use the most for example.... it will probably be daily motion
<sakrecoer> *french
<sakrecoer> if all we want is  the youtube "commmunity" , why exclude the vimeo community?
<sakrecoer> i mean, websearching is what it is...
<sakrecoer> the argument in favour of youtube is: "we might benefit from the massive yet very random crowd to find us by well... random"
<sakrecoer> so we should be everywhere really...
<zequence> Well, because of the pretty much overwhelming usage that youtube has, it would be very foolish to not use that. We could use 10 different sites, but with this small team (and, yet no videos, but that will change) you just have to draw a line somewhere for practical purposes
<autumna> archive.org is great for long term and backup and it is similar to our philosophy, (I am curious through how easy it is to update the videos). youtube is where a lot of the tutorials are so good for findability
<autumna> vimeo is smaller, but is actually quite important to visual arts/film community, and there definitely are tutorials/etc there so it is relevant and a somewhat distinct community in our case
<sakrecoer> autumna: very easy to update files in archive.
<sakrecoer> no need to break the url like youtube
<autumna> I would strongly suggest pulling the line there through. :D 3 is plenty. :D 
<sakrecoer> me too, 3 is good
<autumna> sakrecoer: that is great. I wasn't sure about that part. 
<sakrecoer> and it is not that much work really... upload and copypaste the text we agree on
<autumna> zequence: I assume that vimeo isn't as visible in the audio community? 
<zequence> autumna: Maybe not in all. I have used it from time to time
<sakrecoer> zequence: but regarding the relevancy of staying out of the youtube crowd: it is really a matter of luck. people searching for an ubuntustudio tutorial is alreeady an ubuntustudio user. i doubt someone looking for womething else would think "aha, this system is great", at best they will be interested about the software that the tutorial is covering
<zequence> sakrecoer: Actually, I don't buy that at all. People will find our tutorials no matter if they know what Ubuntu Studio is
<zequence> And, they will do it both from googling, and from searching on Youtube
<sakrecoer> will they look at it?
<autumna> sakrecoer: one idea is to have a wiki page of links so that we know what is uploaded where, and we can keep track of them. 
<sakrecoer> autumna: good idea!
<autumna> (and to use ubuntustudio accounts so that as new volunteers come and go, people can change items) 
<zequence> Of course they will look at it, if they find something interesing in it. And, there are many reasons why they would want to be
<sakrecoer> i see no specific reason why youtube or vimeo would be better suited to expand our userbase. but i'm not against using it
<sakrecoer> i'd like you to explain to me, zequence, how youtube will make more people use ubuntu studio :D
<sakrecoer> but another day really :) haha! sorry, i'm not buying the youtube is vital thing...
<sakrecoer> and you guys don't seem to buy my "youtube is irrelevant" thing so...
<zequence> sakrecoer: I will, some other time. Seems pretty self evident to me, but it will probably take too long time, if I really need to be thorough explaining why the most popular video site out there will be the most easy to use for the most people.
<autumna> btw I do agree with zequence in that I have definitely found new software through tutorials for other software. having quality content can bring people to the platform. (this in our case is especially true since we talk about having tutorials on workflow using the software. so I cna imagine bringing people who use ardour but not ubuntu studio in :D)
 * zequence is going back to studying for an exam on monday
<sakrecoer> yeah, sure... i guess i thiknk "internet" where you guys think "specific network"
<autumna> sakrecoer: yikes good luck zequence
<autumna> errmt
<autumna> sakrecoer: as I was trying to say as I got distracted ;D I do see what you say from a philosophy point of view, but it doesn't hurt to reach out to a wider range of people, and video hopping from video to video is definitely a way for Ubuntu studio to be discovered
<autumna> :D
<autumna> we can even clearly label youtube and vimeo as mirrors, linking people back to the website and archive org videos as first choice to subscribe
<autumna> ;)
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> good! can we all go back to creating the content now? :D
<sakrecoer> <3 sorry if i get all excited. i'm burning for these questions :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, just wanted to add one more thing. I mean, we could have archive.org as the first choice when linking to tutorials from our website. From there, it's nice to do that. The youtube channel will almost certainly live its own life anyway
<sakrecoer> perfect middle ground autumna ! :)
<zequence> Oh, autumna had the same idea there
<autumna> I love these questions. <3 (and what zequence said as well. -lol)
<sakrecoer> oh sorry! haha
<sakrecoer> i ment great midle ground _zequence_
<zequence> sakrecoer: No, autumna was first
<autumna> it is actually safer to have subscription be through rss or our own systems when possible, because THERE the reliance issue becomes relevant. (e.g. what happens if the proprietary platform goes away). ;D
<autumna> *snorts*
<sakrecoer> oh, right, thats why i got mixed up :D
<sakrecoer> you both rocks! 
<autumna> <3
<autumna> ok I am going to take a look at this blueprint then pick a few scenarios to focus on so that we can build the website around it
<sakrecoer> i have to run away for an hour... if someone could have a look at this at some point? https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-documentation not sure i've done it right... https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-documentation/trunk
<zequence> Alan Pope reached out to some of us about the snap packages. I haven't yet take a look at what it actually means in the whole infrastructure of things - how those work as a complement to debian packages
<zequence> There is a chance those are a good option for much of our multimedia type of packages
<zequence> But, IMO, it's important to also be able to control your updates, without sacrificing updates all together
<zequence> If snap packages can be controlled, it would be a good option for pretty much all of our multimedia packages, especially the ones that are updated often
<zequence> But, not for our own sources - except for a few, perhaps.
<OvenWerks> No I would not use it for our own packages. I have asked about legacy packages also.
<sakrecoer> well.. that took longer than expected and came with more... will be back sometime tomorrow afternoon! peace y'all and happy friday!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-28
<sakrecoer> g'night krycek! thanks for bringing some life to #us today :)
<krytarik> Heh, it wasn't meee! :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-29
<sakrecoer> i seem to have forgotten to add: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WacomScripts to the blueprints. the plan is to integrate it to ubuntustudio-controls right?
<sakrecoer> autumna: i'm not quite sure how i use the script on the wiki page. i didn't have time to try what you sent me the other day here on irc, and then i forgot about it.. would you mind refreshing my memory a little bit?
<zequence> sakrecoer: There's no plan for how to integrate the scripts. Someone needs to work that out first
<zequence> Depends on if there's some user side configuration involved, or not
<zequence> User configs -> -controls, no user congigs -default-settings
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok, thanks!
<sakrecoer> zequence: i guess i'll add the "how to integreate" as a workitem to ubuntustudio-y-development..
<sakrecoer> hmm... we do have editing rights on wiki.ubuntu.com but not help.wiki.com
<sakrecoer> i'll try my lucj on RT :)
<sakrecoer> luck* even
<zequence> sakrecoer: Actually, there may be a reason to create a new package out of the wacom scripts even
<zequence> It's not strictly Ubuntu Studio related. But, we can create it from our own source
<zequence> Even better to add it Debian
<zequence> to Debian, that is
<autumna> sakrecoer: zequence: my plan after website is to focus on the script and make it into a full setting system combining a few moving pieces.
<autumna> sakrecoer: if you put the script into a file, and type ./<filename> it should give you the usage (--key option doesn't work. --screen option does :D)
<sakrecoer> thanks autumna !! i'll try that in a few minutes.
<sakrecoer> zequence's plan to put it in debian sounds great, don't you think autumna ? :)
<sakrecoer> plan or plan... i mean suggestion
<autumna> I am happy with either solution. I mean it could be ubuntu studio exclusive, a reason to use ubuntu studio, but then again it could be useful to a lot of other distros so makes sense. (either way it is more of a packaging of existing tools than truly new thing from scratch anyway ;D)
<sakrecoer> one thing i like about ubuntu studio, is that it is very /inclusive/ ;) but from a different semantic point of view, i am sure having such a wacom script included after install will be ubuntu studio exclusive, at least for some time :)
<autumna> hahah fair! 
<autumna> :D
<autumna> btw re the email on the curriculum, I did draft a hasty reply, but I would be happy to talk more to the professor who is interested in making an ubuntu studio based curriculum. (AFTER website)
<zequence> There's never a reason for us to distribute something just in order to promote Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio is in many ways just a showcase of what a debian derivative can do
<zequence> We should as much as possible always try to make changes in Debian first, then Ubuntu, then Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> Even, further, the order for where best to make changes is 1) upstream applications 2) Debian 3) Ubuntu 4) Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> In the case with the script, which I still haven't had a look at, so I can't fully tell - but from what it seems, the best place to add it is as a package for Debian
<zequence> Is something similar packaged for other distros?
<zequence> Perhaps it already exists as a package somewhere?
<autumna> zequence: for gnome and kde they have their own wacom tools. 
<autumna> and unity too I believe. xfce doesn't have their own settings. 
<zequence> unity uses Gnome
<zequence> (for settings, and much else)
<autumna> *blinks* I could swear they were separate tools in case of wacom.
<autumna> *goes to double check*
<autumna> ok I will have to check later but I could swear I tried 2 different packages to see if I can get the wacom settings gui working from 2. I don't know if they overlap behind the scenes. 
<sakrecoer> autumna: re: curriculum, good! me too, so please keep it on-list :) 
<autumna> sakrecoer: sure thing
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-22
<OvenWerks> on -controls I am thinking of taking the cancel/ok buttons and changing it to one close button. My reasoning being that each tab finishes it's own activity with all setting in front of the user.
<OvenWerks> So in tweaks everything takes effect imediately, Audio settings has it's own Apply button.... and I am not really even done that yet.
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild
<OvenWerks> has a newer version. The tweaks has been streamlined and the rtaccess is done on it.
<OvenWerks> The next version will have only the two tabs (tweaks and audio) so it will be usable as such.
<OvenWerks> In tweaks I have removed the at next boot check boxes to simplify things. It follows xfce convention that things start next boot as you left it this boot.
<OvenWerks> The biggest change from the last version of -controls, is that tyhe GUI runs in userspace. Only things that have to have system access are run as system and that list is limmited.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-24
<OvenWerks> Glade has a memory leak
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-25
<OvenWerks> Anyone who likes packaging: getting the latest DrumGizmo through debian (even just into Studio PPA) would be worthwhile. The latest version uses less than 2.5G of ram to load :) For those running 4G ram or less this is an issue.
<OvenWerks> Also, getting AVLdrums.LV2 into Studio would be nice.
<OvenWerks> (I don't know if it is a part of x42 plugins or not)
<OvenWerks> For those watching -controls. There is another new version up. but for some reason it doesn't seem to install /etc/xdg/autostart/autojack.desktop
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Add "etc/" to here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-controls/trunk/view/head:/debian/ubuntustudio-controls.install
<krytarik> And by that I mean in a separate line below.
<krytarik> Or above. :P
<OvenWerks> Cool, I will try that. Thank you.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I have another try in the loop, I don't know how often the auto build happens though.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Automatically, no earlier than 24 hours after the last build, but you can request "Build now" here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+recipe/ubuntustudio-controls-daily
<OvenWerks> Thanks, The only way I can test installs is with a build.
<OvenWerks> Ok all, ubuntustudio-controls pre1.5 (140) is available for testing.
<OvenWerks> The audio section is mostly complete. Auto connecting hot plugged USB devices does not work at this time. (meens I have not yet started on it)
<OvenWerks> The GUI is still getting tweaked... it will be 1/4 (or it is 1/3 bigger now) smaller tomorrow.
<OvenWerks> Giving full names to the audio devices expanded the GUI width quite a bit.
<OvenWerks> I am trying to make the GUI easier to understand :/ not my best thing. I have already added some text to add and remove (Add (Available) and Remove (Connected))
<OvenWerks> The Apply button can be either renamed to "Save settings" or it can also do a jack restart.
<OvenWerks> Things to try: create a new user and make sure you get a big red warning when starting -controls as the new user. click the fix button and the message should change to tell you to logout/in. logout/in and the red message should be gone. This should work on another flavour even if jackd is not installed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-26
<sakrecoer> sweet OvenWerks :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: glad you like it
<OvenWerks> Ga... this looks easy: http://gareus.org/blog/jack2dbus
<OvenWerks> but it relies on a package that is not to be found in ubuntu or debian: dbus-triggerd
<OvenWerks> we do have dbus-monitor which seems to be installed by default.. and taking similar commands does work if I do dbus-monitor |script_that_parses_output_and_does_something
<OvenWerks> Hmm, and the messages sent are changed with systemd too.
<OvenWerks> I guess I can look for UnitNew and UnitRemoved and look to see if our audio device count has changed...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-27
<OvenWerks> question: It looks like there is supposed to be a meeting(here?) tomorrow? Same time as last week?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-28
<eylul> sakrecoer ovenwerks rosco2 tag me when you are here :)
<OvenWerks> I here
<OvenWerks> Sorry to b late
<sakrecoer> hi eylul OvenWerks
<sakrecoer> krytarik and everyone
<eylul> hi
<sakrecoer> didn't have much to say, haven't had much time to think.
<sakrecoer> i like the draft Ross wrote.
<sakrecoer> the only part that frictioned with me is "Unfortunately, as happens occasionally in the world of Free
<sakrecoer> Software,
<sakrecoer> "
<sakrecoer> it's more inherent to voluntary work, than free software..
<sakrecoer> i suppose we need to know where krytarik sees themselves in this new context. cfhowlett also, and maybe Jlye who seemed to show interest during 16.04
<sakrecoer> cfhowleet is very active on facebook with the page and the group
<krytarik> I'm fine with not being on the council myself.  Also, hi!
<sakrecoer> you have done awesome PR too eylul, i've been wathcing you on my pocketTV
<sakrecoer> hi krytarik :)
<eylul> hehe thanks sakrecoer :D
<eylul> we all do what we can (and I agree with the wording change)
<eylul> krytarik it is completely up to you
<OvenWerks> Well, hello. I think the meeting time changed :)
<sakrecoer> hi OvenWerks :) indeed!
<OvenWerks> Just got home...
<sakrecoer> wb!
<OvenWerks> Has anyone tested the new -controls?
<eylul> *hides*
<sakrecoer> i haven't yet, no :(
<sakrecoer> but i have undusted my production machine!
<sakrecoer> which is at least one step forward since the previews 745 steps backwards
<sakrecoer> *previous 
<sakrecoer> lol
<OvenWerks> I am having fun with it. People can at least easily add a USB mic.
<sakrecoer> nice!
<sakrecoer> could it have a switch to kill alsaFW in favour of FFADO? :p
<sakrecoer> kill=blacklist
<OvenWerks> being able to use a USB mic has been my main reason for this work.. I would not use one myself, but there are a lot of people who give up on linux audio for that reason
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I do not have a FW device to play with
<OvenWerks> I do have a USB mic I got for $3 at the second hand store.
<sakrecoer> right, we've discussed that already i think, but never managed to pair remotly with my FW thing
<OvenWerks> I have heard that the alsa drivers are not as good as the direct to jack drivers
<sakrecoer> i don't know, i've never benn able to use alsaFW for naything else than playback... handy for quick plug'n'play i think, but very confusing to configure and not jack friendly...
<sakrecoer> i found how to blacklist them on arch wiki, and then everything works fine
<sakrecoer> with ffado
<sakrecoer> i have to go now though...
<sakrecoer> good to read you everyone <3
<sakrecoer> g'night o/
<OvenWerks> good night... 
<OvenWerks> Cool, plug a USB mic in and it shows up on jack, pull the plug it goes away.
<OvenWerks> So I can get the "Add as a bridged client" option to work just fine.
<OvenWerks> Jack continues to run through the whole thing. Of course any connections to the USB device get disconnected when it is pulled.
<OvenWerks> The other option "Make USB the new jack Master" works as well... when plugging in. Plug in a USB interface and the jack "system" device changes. As with the other, connections to the output are lost.
<OvenWerks> However, unplugging the device zombyfies jackdbus. So I can get it to work... but have to kill jackdbus to do so. This means _all_ connections are lost and any connected applications may die, hang or require a reconnect.
<OvenWerks> RG's myjackctl.sh does not work even on 16.04, I guess things have changed :)
<OvenWerks> The only thing I can think to make things a bit better is to provide a manual switch_master button the user can hit before unplugging their USB device.
<OvenWerks> There is one odd thing about the whole setup... -controls is python3 (so it works with glade/gtk3) and the dbus listener is python2 :P because python-dbus requires python2. There does not seem to be dbus API for python3 in our repos.
<OvenWerks> Hmmm, it looks like the only way is for the dbus talker to become autojack.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-21
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: That post was back in 2005 when GNOME 2 was in its hayday. To play devil's advocate, it's hardly an exhibit in a debate simply due to its age, since the GNOME usability team could be totally different people now.
<ErichEickmeyer> Though, I agree 100% with eylul on this one. A lot of the issue I can see is with software discoverability, and without categorizing it, I can see the GNOME applications overview becoming super cluttered with our software.
<ErichEickmeyer> GNOME is more general-purpose, whereas most of our target audience (for lack of a better term) tends to want more customizability, which is something Xfce and Plasma are very good at.
<ErichEickmeyer> Looks like Plasma is about to get even better: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/05/kde-plasma-5-13-features-upgrade
 * OvenWerks has realized that controls should work the same if a USB devices (or more than one) are plugged in at boot or plugged in later. He have amended the GUI to reflect this
<OvenWerks> Now on to the daemon... (which will be harder)
<OvenWerks> Well actually there is another change I want to make and that is what will be harder :)
<OvenWerks> The GUI needs some cleanup though, there are unused functions in there and some functions are overly long and should be split into smaller functions for better readability maybe.
<OvenWerks> The GUI also needs better and improved help. I am not convinces that pre-creating the help dialogs in glade is the best way of doing things. The audio tab at least will need a step by step instruction for at least first time setup.
<OvenWerks> currently the apply configured settings saves the settings and does a restart. This should be changed to change only things that need to be changed without stopping jack (unless that is the config change)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-22
<ErichEickmeyer> Hey everyone! Karl Shneider was kind enough to make these (get ready to go "ooo! ahhhh!") https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1W4IbVTzqRx2sfiDSFWfCnAUjccBGip-Y?usp=sharing
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-23
<ErichEickmeyer> Just started the initial fork to create ubuntustudio-welcome: https://github.com/eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio-welcome
<ErichEickmeyer> Anybody who wants to, feel free to jump right in.
<krytarik> Why not on LP though?
<ErichEickmeyer> Because ubuntu-mate-welcome was on github.
<ErichEickmeyer> Or, maybe I'm doing something wrong. *sigh* I'm not familiar with bzr enough, but I can get my way around git.
<OvenWerks> LP does git too these days
<ErichEickmeyer> *sigh* I'll move it. ...
<OvenWerks> sigh...
<OvenWerks> git on lp is a bit different too, you may wish to leave it on github
<ErichEickmeyer> Then I'll do that. I can't figure out how to do it anyway.
<ErichEickmeyer> We can migrate it later.
<ErichEickmeyer> Migrated: https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-welcome
<OvenWerks> wow that was quick
<OvenWerks> I'll look at it tomorrow... if I don't sleep all day after having to get up at 4am...
<ErichEickmeyer> Actually, not migrated. Mirrored. I deleted it.
<ErichEickmeyer> And now it's back.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-24
<tarzeau_> i got qtractor and traverso updated in debian :)
<tarzeau_> i'd love to see "Nimbus Sans L" (helvetica clone) and fonts-league-spartan (futura clone) included
<tarzeau_> ah just found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/NeedsPackaging
<tarzeau_> last github commit from 2013. is that still wanted???
<OvenWerks> not sure ... don't even know what that is. Carla would be nice though
<tarzeau_> url?
<tarzeau_> i still would like to see grafx2, protracker, schismtracker, goattracker, milkytracker, klystrack added
<tarzeau_> and once the rtmidi/fasttracker2 stuff (c/c++ w gcc) is sorted, ft2 is going to be packaged too
<OvenWerks> https://github.com/falkTX/Carla/
<OvenWerks> Be sure _not_ to use all depends it comes with :)
<OvenWerks> Carla builds just fine without linux sampler for example
<OvenWerks> In fact I would leave out any of the internal synths
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-25
<tarzeau_> i'll take a look at it, why not add it to NeedsPackaging meanwhile?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-26
<OvenWerks> Is this a meeting day?
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes. I just woke up. I am putting together an agenda.
 * ErichEickmeyer probably just had the best night's sleep in YEARS
<OvenWerks> Cool, as happens I just uploaded the latest version of -controls 
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages
<ErichEickmeyer> Sweet. I just did more rebranding on -welcome.
<ErichEickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-welcome
<ErichEickmeyer> I think once I get through the rebranding, then the real customization can begin.
<OvenWerks> There are many changes... and it is certainly a work in progress (there is even a call that is not yet called) but the cpu governor now works on 18.04-10 and more than one USB device works, MIDI USB devcies don't mess things up...
<ErichEickmeyer> Nice. Keeps getting better!
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: no recipe? or not ready for that yet?
<ErichEickmeyer> Not ready. Also, this is a fork directly from github, so that might be why.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: no yu have to put a recipe in.
<ErichEickmeyer> This just forked too: https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-boutique
<ErichEickmeyer> No changes made yet.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Also, just checked the ubuntu-mate-welcome repo, and there's no recipe there either.
<eylul> I am not sure if i will make to the meeting today. but main items in case I can't.
<eylul> 1) wallpaper: yes you can notice the difference between 1920x1080 resolution (Full HD) and 3840x2160 (4K) on a HiDPI screen. (I use a 17" screen for reference). As OvenWerks found out that the performance is not affected, I'd argue lets go with 4K to future proof. A lot of new laptops even come with higher resolution screens, and we argued before that we are not aiming for after the market that much. :) 
<eylul> 2) I think everyone arguing against KDE and for gnome mentioned the wacom tablet issue. This is something we have discussed before and had plans on. (before I had to vanish) I'll send an email on the topic, now. :)
<OvenWerks> ok
<ErichEickmeyer> :thumbsup:
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: it would have a snap recipe.
<OvenWerks> They use a sanp package
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looking here, it points to the snap package, but I can't figure out where the recipe is: https://code.launchpad.net/~flexiondotorg/+snap/ubuntu-mate-welcome
<ErichEickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mate-dev/ubuntu-mate/+git/ubuntu-mate-welcome/+ref/before-boutique
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: there is on that last page, a link that says Create snap package
<OvenWerks> You can redirect it to make a snap package in any ppa.
<OvenWerks> however, if it could be made to create a non-snap package... that could be an advantage too.
<ErichEickmeyer> I may have cloned the wrong repo... the new one is "before boutique". Now that I think about it, Wimpress did say something about there being a new version with a separated boutique.
<OvenWerks> The welcome is like a menu that calls separate processes yes.
<ErichEickmeyer> Also, the docs says it can be built without snap, it even includes a debian directory.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, looks like development stopped on the repo I initiallly cloned and now everything is in the "before-boutique" version. back to the drawing board.
<ErichEickmeyer> Or, maybe not. I'm so confused.
<OvenWerks> I have noticed that for a snap package to run, it needs the snap daemon to be running, That creates a loopback directory which it fills for each snap program... after the program ends, trhose directories are still there.
<ErichEickmeyer> Could it be that those directories remain there for the next time it's run?
<OvenWerks> I am sure that is true... but is that a good thing?
<ErichEickmeyer> Something tells me that's by design. Remember, it's not like a docker container.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: yes, that is great if you have to have a non-standard lib, but if it can run without a snap, it will use less system resourses.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm not 100% sure that's true. I'm trying to get someone in here to answer questions about snaps, since it's a bit over my head.
<Son_Goku> meep
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Hi!
<Son_Goku> Hey
<Son_Goku> I'm one of the maintainers of the Snappy stack in Fedora
<Son_Goku> so I may be able to answer some of your questions w.r.t. snaps
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Awesome! That will be helpful!
<ErichEickmeyer> Our meeting will officially kick-off in about 15 minutes, but OvenWerks and I have been unofficially talking about snaps and he has a few concerns.
<Son_Goku> sure
<Son_Goku> be aware that much of my experience is related to the work I've had to do to integrate snaps in Fedora
<Son_Goku> but a good amount of it is fairly generic
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, knowing how snaps work, it should be relatively cross-platform.
<Son_Goku> ehh, mostly
<Son_Goku> snaps are unfortunately more complex than that
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux: o/
<captain-tux> Hello :)
<Son_Goku> OvenWerks, what concerns do you have?
<Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, I'm also the maintainer of Flatpak for Mageia, so if you have any questions w.r.t. snaps vs flatpaks, I can hopefully help there too
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Cool!
<ErichEickmeyer> He might be AFK at the moment.
 * Son_Goku shrugs
<Son_Goku> well, do _you_ have any questions, then?
<ErichEickmeyer> Kindof, but mine are closer to Launchpad-based, e.g. snap recipes.
<ErichEickmeyer> And need to be directed at the original authors of a package I'm forking.
<Son_Goku> ah
<Son_Goku> snap recipes are a weird aspect of snaps that I don't use
<Son_Goku> after all, Launchpad isn't particularly useful for building snaps within Fedora infrastructure ;)
<ErichEickmeyer> Of course.
 * ErichEickmeyer used Fedora JAM before joining the Ubuntu Studio team.
<Son_Goku> aww, you left us for Ubuntu :'(
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I saw a ship sinking and, since I have a ton of high-level Ubuntu contacts, decided to help keep the ship afloat.
<Son_Goku> the Ubuntu Studio ship?
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes. An unfortunate series of events for the project leader led the project to stagnate for about two years. You'll notice the only major difference between 16.04 and 18.04 is the packages were updated.
<ErichEickmeyer> Basically, the project leader couldn't continue, and neither could the release manager, so a council has been formed and now I'm the release manager.
<Son_Goku> lucky you, I guess
<ErichEickmeyer> Depends on how you look at it. I also chair the council.
<Son_Goku> I'm now one of the dev team leaders for Mageia (which consequently makes me a member of the Mageia Council)
<Son_Goku> I've also gotten pretty deeply involved across the package management stack used in nearly all RPM based Linux distributions
<Son_Goku> which has been an interesting change of late
<ErichEickmeyer> Awesome. I did a number of items with openSUSE and Fedora on my own repo in Open Build Service, but never really got involved with the projects themselves.
<ErichEickmeyer> My involvement with Ubuntu Studio has been a whirlwind.
<ErichEickmeyer> I use the tools in my regular job, so there's incentive.
<Son_Goku> which is more or less how this happened for me
<Son_Goku> I'm now an active contributor in Fedora, Mageia, and openSUSE
<Son_Goku> and semi-active in a few others...
<ErichEickmeyer> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 26 19:00:16 2018 UTC.  The chair is ErichEickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair OvenWerks
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair eylul captain-tux
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair krytarik
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul krytarik
<ErichEickmeyer> And that's all I see active atm.
<OvenWerks> ok
<ErichEickmeyer> Let's start with -controls since you're here, OvenWerks.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-controls
<OvenWerks> -controls is still moving. It can handle more than one USB device and is no longer confused by midi usb devices
<ErichEickmeyer> Excellent.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's amazing progress.
<OvenWerks> the cpu governor now works on 18.* and up
<ErichEickmeyer> Awesome. Have you thought about indicator-cpufreq? I use it and it comes in handy.
<OvenWerks>  I don't remember If I have yet removed what would work on 16.*
<ErichEickmeyer> Are we planning on backporting to 16.04?
<OvenWerks> -controls just sets it right now and at next boot. WHere ever it was at shutdown it should come up the same way
<OvenWerks> I do not know if the mods to work in 18.* would break 16.* or not.
<ErichEickmeyer> I say we don't worry about backporting, since we're ultimately going for 18.10 and have the polish done by 20.04.
<ErichEickmeyer> Gives us a couple years to get it right, know what I mean?
<OvenWerks> I am finding though, that the version of jackdbus we have doesn't seem as stable at "switch master" as it was when I started
<ErichEickmeyer> Huh. bug in jackdbus?
<OvenWerks> This means that for robustness, it appears jack will have to be restarted for master device change... at least some of them
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if this is a change in jack or alsa
<ErichEickmeyer> Not surprising considering the number of things that have to be restarted for jack to apply changes.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, great.
<OvenWerks> anyway, a latest package is available to try in: https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
 * ErichEickmeyer still has yet to move to cosmic from bionic.
<ErichEickmeyer> Now, since I don't want to waste Son_Goku's time...
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-welcome
<OvenWerks> unchecking the start jackd with session start option will leave the system as stock
 * Son_Goku waves
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Some people had questions about that, and that's what I told them.
<OvenWerks> it is the one advantage over Cadence
<ErichEickmeyer> So, for welcome, it's a fork of ubuntu-mate-welcome which is pre-installed as a snap.
<Son_Goku> :/
<ErichEickmeyer> But, OvenWerks has concerns about snap, to quote: "I have noticed that for a snap package to run, it needs the snap daemon to be running, That creates a loopback directory which it fills for each snap program... after the program ends, trhose directories are still there."
<Son_Goku> the thing that was forked from antegros which was forked from korora, right?
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Correct.
<ErichEickmeyer> I speculate that is by design for the next time the program loads.
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, it appears that it can be packaged as a native .deb file, so I'm not too concerned.
<Son_Goku> technically, you need the snappy daemon running for two purposes:
<Son_Goku> 1. Managing the snaps on the system
<Son_Goku> 2. Discovering snaps from the singular Snap Store
<Son_Goku> snapd is not necessary for the actual usage of snaps, because snaps are mounted by systemd, through mount units
<Son_Goku> the reason the snaps stick around is because snapd writes them as persistent mount units
<Son_Goku> you'll find them in /etc/systemd/system
<Son_Goku> the snappy daemon does generally need to be running for any of the snap tooling to work, but for snap applications themselves, they should not require snapd
<Son_Goku> this is why I'm not personally a fan of snapping applications that interface with snapd
<Son_Goku> it creates an awful catch-22 that might not work out so nicely
<OvenWerks> So an application installer may not be a good canidate
<ErichEickmeyer> snapd runs by default in every flavor of Ubuntu as of 18.04, I believe.
<Son_Goku> OvenWerks, the tricky problem is how do you get people to get it?
<Son_Goku> and last I heard, there have been difficulties with preloading certain classes of snaps on the ISO
<OvenWerks> apt?
<Son_Goku> well, if it's a snap, then it becomes problematic
<Son_Goku> but if it's a regular system package, this is easy
<ErichEickmeyer> This would be installed by default on Ubuntu Studio from 18.10 onward. (-welcome)
<ErichEickmeyer> As it currently is on U-MATE and U-Budgie.
<Son_Goku> I wish all the forks of Korora's welcome would actually help those guys out (*sighs*)
<Son_Goku> anyway, that's sorta beside the point right nwo
<Son_Goku> *now
<Son_Goku> but you probably don't want the snappy code running while it's in live-media mode
<Son_Goku> I've observed issues with snaps + casper livefs
<ErichEickmeyer> It doesn't run in the live media.
<Son_Goku> then you should be fine
<ErichEickmeyer> The -welcome app is to run after installation.
<Son_Goku> then yeah, I wouldn't worry about it
<Son_Goku> it's working as designed
<Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, OvenWerks: anything else?
<ErichEickmeyer> That's all I have for now. Could we ping you in the future?
<ErichEickmeyer> You've been very helpful
<OvenWerks> how do snaps deal with plugins
<Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, sure
<Son_Goku> I tend to hang out everywhere but the ubuntu channels ;)
<Son_Goku> but notably, I'm in #snappy
<Son_Goku> OvenWerks, in what sense?
<OvenWerks> both graphics applications and audio applications have plugins.
<OvenWerks> if  daw is run as a snap, where would it see a plugin?
<OvenWerks> gimp uses plugins as well
<Son_Goku> it doesn't
<Son_Goku> that's (hopefully) the point
<Son_Goku> it would only see stuff that's part of the snap itself
<OvenWerks> about what I thought
<Son_Goku> flatpak and snap have some concepts around supporting plugin models
<ErichEickmeyer> So, one would have to essentially "kitchen sink" the plugins to the snap to get the plugins into the app.
<Son_Goku> but it's kind of weak
<OvenWerks> we have had people suggest a snap for problem applications lib wise that have plugins.
<Son_Goku> especially in snaps, where if you do "classic confinement", you're technically exposing the host system up to the snap
<Son_Goku> so weird things happen
<OvenWerks>  calf plugins already do that
<OvenWerks> (no snaps involved)
<Son_Goku> flatpak has a concept of "extending" application flatpaks with addons, which kind of goes towards what you're talking about
<Son_Goku> that's how flatpak supports proper GTK/Qt themes for apps, for example
<Son_Goku> but for snaps, you'd need to write an independent snap that would "bridge" to the main one
<Son_Goku> and even then, I'm not terribly sure that would work, because unlike flatpaks, snaps don't overlay the filesystem structures on top of each other
<Son_Goku> I'd probably suggest if you wanted to deliver apps as snaps that typically use plugins, bundle all the plugins into the snap
<OvenWerks> That sounds like a nightmare
 * Son_Goku shrugs
<ErichEickmeyer> That settles it then.
<Son_Goku> if something has changed about it, I haven't heard about it yet
<OvenWerks> Thats it for me then.
<ErichEickmeyer> #agreed Ubuntu Studio will not be including snaps of GIMP or any other program that uses plugins until snaps can support plugins.
<Son_Goku> but as far as I'm aware, that's the sitch
<Son_Goku> but yes, flatpak supports this: https://blog.tingping.se/2018/03/18/flatpaking-plugins.html
<ErichEickmeyer> Interesting.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, we need to move on to our next topic or we'll be here all day (and I do have to head to work in about 2 hours).
<Son_Goku> heh
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-plasma
<Son_Goku> I believe flathub ships some apps as flatpaks with extensions
<Son_Goku> so take a look at that
<Son_Goku> ooh, plasma for ubuntustudio :)
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Any progress on Plasma? I've been meaning to get a couple screenshots as proof-of-concept.
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Yep. We announced we'd be adding it as a DE two weeks ago. :)
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: you probably don't want the current theme as I am using it :)
<Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, so like Fedora jam (which also uses Plasma) :)
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I doubt most people would! haha
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: And KXStudio.
<OvenWerks> https://i.imgur.com/wHegBQl.png
<ErichEickmeyer> We did quite a bit of testing before landing on Plasma for our first +1 DE. Xfce will remain default for now.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yep, very close to what I have.
<ErichEickmeyer> Except the theme where I stuck to Breeze on the windows.
<OvenWerks> This is breeese I think but I edited the scheme
<OvenWerks> (colour scheme)
<ErichEickmeyer> With Breeze being the default for Plasma, I recommend keeping it simple and sticking to the default for 18.10 just to lighten the workload.
<OvenWerks> I have no problem with that
<OvenWerks> Mostly I made these changes to see how far I could go
<ErichEickmeyer> Besides, it already has a dark variant for people who prefer to work that way as well.
<OvenWerks> (without having to downlaod anything)
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Are we working on a settings package for that?
<OvenWerks> it's stock
<OvenWerks> if i understand what you are asking
<OvenWerks> I have not yet started on a desktop-plasma package because I am working on -controls.
<ErichEickmeyer> No worries.
<ErichEickmeyer> I was just curious.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'd consider solidifying -controls a higher priority this early anyhow since it's a bit more technical.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, with that, I think we can move on.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic wallpapers
<OvenWerks> k
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul already posted earlier, so I'll just take what she wrote and put it in the meeting notes.
<ErichEickmeyer> Do you have anything to add?
<OvenWerks> not at this time.
<eylul> *was actually lurking here for whole time*
<ErichEickmeyer> LOL!
<eylul> *continues to lurk*
<ErichEickmeyer> The mouse speaks!
<OvenWerks> The peanut gallery has been so quiet.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Anything to add to what you wrote earlier today?
<OvenWerks> (lots of other nicks active)
<eylul> just forgot to say that I think we have decided to go with .png? was that the final verdict?
<OvenWerks> I think that would be best
<ErichEickmeyer> Obviously the wacom issue is a thing, but if we can make some sort of gui with -controls or -settings, that would fix that issue for both Xfce and Plasma.
<OvenWerks> do we need a vote? or did we?
<ErichEickmeyer> I thought we voted last time?
<eylul> yeah I think we did.
<OvenWerks> I will roll back the two changes then.
<ErichEickmeyer> iirc we went with .png
<OvenWerks> shood we vote on 4k
<eylul> I'll convert the files, and get them up... somewhere for next meeting so that they can be uploaded. *is not going near the package editing again*
<eylul> (not until everything is moved to git)
<eylul> oh
<ErichEickmeyer> I think a vote for 4k would be a good idea.
<eylul> that's my vote
<ErichEickmeyer> #vote Should wallpapers move to 4k?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<ErichEickmeyer> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ErichEickmeyer
<krytarik> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from krytarik
<OvenWerks> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
<eylul> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from eylul
<captain-tux>   +1
<OvenWerks> krytarik: did you want to say more?
<krytarik> Well, just seems a little unusual and over the top right now.
<eylul> unusual compared to...?
<krytarik> Everything else.
<eylul> everything else is a very vague descriptor.
<ErichEickmeyer> #vote
<meetingology> Voting still open on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
<ErichEickmeyer> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ErichEickmeyer> We can revisit that.
<ErichEickmeyer> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
<OvenWerks> yes it seems there could be some discusion
<eylul> I love meetingology. XD
<ErichEickmeyer> smh
<ErichEickmeyer> So, we need further discussion on this. krytarik has a valid point, and I believe some discussion is merited.
<eylul> I do disagree with that (the valid point, not discussion aspect)
<OvenWerks> :)
<eylul> I do need more than everything else is different as an argument. with no clear explanation of what everything else is, to figure out if it is relevant to us or not
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: You okay? Some point-of-view on this would be nice.
<ErichEickmeyer> We can revote if the argument is compelling enough.
<OvenWerks> We had already voted on whatever hires was last year so we can start with that
<OvenWerks> 1024P or something
<OvenWerks> having made that choice it is perhaps a bit quick to jump again.
<ErichEickmeyer> Might be. Granted, 4k looks better on 4k and scales down well enough, but sticking to 1024 for now isn't a bad idea. Maybe revisit 4k after 18.10?
<eylul> 1080p is not HiRes and never was, and I do disagree with this decision
<eylul> 4K was the resolution of wallpaper we were ready to put up to 18.04 without discussion before I brought it up. :) 
<OvenWerks> really the choice can wait till beta. It may take a bit to put thoughts for or against into words.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Should we table this for another date?
<OvenWerks> Ah, didn't look taht close
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I think so
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, let's vote on the vote.
<eylul> and nobody had any disagreements with it after testing until one random comment. I am all for discussion. I have serious issues about us hesitating to change decisions because one person who hasn't contributed to discussion. (as small relatively speaking as this particular problem is) and yeah lets table it :)
<ErichEickmeyer> #vote Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
<meetingology> Please vote on: Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<ErichEickmeyer> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ErichEickmeyer
<OvenWerks> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
<OvenWerks> we seem to have lost everyone
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Not sure why. :(
<eylul> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from eylul
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik, captain-tux?
<eylul> as long as the discussion happens timely for 18.10
<captain-tux> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from captain-tux
<captain-tux> Yeah, that, I'm set.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I'll keep it in the agenda to discuss next week, but not necessarily make a decision.
<ErichEickmeyer> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Website Theme
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn isn't here, but do we have any progress here?
<eylul> no update from me.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's it for the agenda. Anything else to add?
<eylul> not from me. I am looking at the kde wacom interface linked. I didn't realize it was still actively developed.
<ErichEickmeyer> Interesting.
<OvenWerks> Which link?
<ErichEickmeyer> That definitelly needs to be something we include in -plasma.
<eylul> OvenWerks: Alexansander's reply to my email. 
<eylul> https://github.com/KDE/wacomtablet :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Ah, it's a KCM.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Wacom Tablet
<ErichEickmeyer> Last release was 3.0 on April 3.
<ErichEickmeyer> Needs to be packaged.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Apparently already being worked on by the Kubuntu team: https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/ubuntu/experimental
<eylul> Kubuntu team is great :)
<ErichEickmeyer> I'll keep up to date with them. Definitely a collaboration thing here. :)
<OvenWerks> anyone have a good suggestion for an inexpesive tablet?
<ErichEickmeyer> Shall we end the meeting first?
<OvenWerks> (k
<eylul> yes but will wait for meeting to be over :)
<ErichEickmeyer> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat May 26 20:10:52 2018 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntustudio-devel/2018/ubuntustudio-devel.2018-05-26-19.00.moin.txt
<OvenWerks> (I'm looking for 7inch-ish, I think)
<eylul> ovenwerks: intuos are basic versions of wacom tablets and reasonably cheap. (and it is basically the same pad that was the old professional tablets). I also heard good things about huion and has at least some linux support
<eylul> unless you mean.. wait drawing tablet?
<eylul> or like tablet?
<eylul> *laughs*
<OvenWerks> for drawing
<Son_Goku> OvenWerks, ErichEickmeyer, anyway, I hope what I told you was useful
<eylul> I'd argue cheap models of wacom, because that's what I have used and still use and has been supported in linux for a while now. Don't go for something too tiny through as having some movement area to work is better. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: It is very. It answered some questions we've had for weeks. Thank you so much!
<eylul> +1
<Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, if you need anything, I'm in #flatpak and #snappy
<OvenWerks> eylul: I am going by what my son is asking for.
<Son_Goku> and of course, various Fedora and Mageia channels :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Awesome. I just joined #snappy, and I'm sure I'll ask questions in the future. :)
<eylul> (moving to PM with OvenWerks)
<Son_Goku> well, I'm out
<eylul> ErichEickmeyer as usual thanks for running the meeting
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Of course! My pleasure.
<tsimonq2> I heard y'all need packaging help?
<OvenWerks> I don't know if ErichEickmeyer is ready yet. 
<eylul> I think he might have run out to work 
<eylul> but hi tsimonq2 its less of a specific: we need packaging for this thing, more than we are lacking permissions to upload (?)
<eylul> OvenWerks did I get that right?
<tsimonq2> Ah.
<eylul> we also need help with packaging in terms of we really don't have enough people, but let us get back on that
<eylul> with more specific list and places we are stuck at?
<tsimonq2> I do traditional packaging, and not snaps much (although I did at one point, so I can answer passing questions).
<tsimonq2> eylul: Sure.
<OvenWerks> we pretty much figgured out snaps will not help us much
<tsimonq2> I reached the same conclusion with Kubuntu and Lubuntu, for now at least.
<eylul> OvenWerks speaking of that that probably means we will need to figure out what to do with mypaint. 
<eylul> actually this is something that will affect all flavors I think to some extent.
<OvenWerks> eylul: we are waiting for upstream
<eylul> *crossing fingers*
<OvenWerks> From what I can see, the "new" mypaint has not been released yet.
<tsimonq2> mypaint sounds familiar.
<tsimonq2> Anyway, see my away message, I'll have to duck out as soon as I lose cell reception. :)
<OvenWerks> gimp uses a newer mypaint lib that mypaint can have in the system
<OvenWerks> OK
<tsimonq2> But yeah, let me know what you need and how I can help you.
<eylul> mypaint is a lightweight drawing program with infinite canvas and a great brush engine
<eylul> tldr the core lib for next part is out there, and gimp uses it but the release still uses the old version
<eylul> causing a conflict if both are installed
<eylul> and yeah we will get back to you
<eylul> nice to meet you again!
<OvenWerks> (like the installer gives up)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-27
<ErichEickmeyer> Hey tsimonq2 - when you get a chance, bug 1769785 (related to https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/calf). Simply put, package needs an upgrade.
<ubottu> bug 1769785 in calf (Ubuntu) "Calf now at version 0.90.0, Please Upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1769785
<tsimonq2> ErichEickmeyer: Will do.
<sakrecoer> hi all! i added ErichEickmeyer to the core team, if no objection is voiced by the end of the week, i'll amke him the owner
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-20
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: moving a version to the next release before full release means the auto build may be chosen instead of the next release
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm having difficulty seeing how that would be a problem if you're subscribed to the autobuilds.
<Eickmeyer> I mean, obviously we wouldn't want it to move forward unless we've made changes that need testing.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: even when the release is exactly the same as the autobuild/backport the release is the one that should be installed as latest.
<OvenWerks> Otherwise there is confusion, it seems that the user ended up with a patched version when in fact they have a released version
<OvenWerks> backport would of course be the same as release... I think I got that wrong. But in that case it should also be named the same as release anyway because it is a release
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: having said that, in the case of back ports, if we use yy.mo.s would that aslo cause trouble to someone who has version 19.10 of controls (for example) installed with US 19.04?
<OvenWerks> I guess if it is well known that is ok.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Not at all. The build system in Launchpad appends yy.mm of the target to the package. I couldâve sworn we already had this conversation.
<OvenWerks> nope not with me... or at least not exactly :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, a back port of ubuntustudio-controls 19.10 to 19.04 would show up as 19.10-0ubuntu19.04.
<OvenWerks> That be ok. I remember talking about this before now
<Eickmeyer[m]> :)
<OvenWerks> but I was thinking about it from a different angle this time so it seemed different
<Eickmeyer[m]> Got it.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, my first point is still valid.
<OvenWerks> I would suggest all releases be yy.mm with the iso release and WIP beta be last yy.mm.1 with the date appended.
<OvenWerks> That way the next release is always higher version than autobuilds
<OvenWerks> and autobuilds are always higher version than last release
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, as it should be. Remember also, Iâm not let anything build to backports unless it is a full release or an SRU.
<Eickmeyer[m]> *letting
<OvenWerks> If we need a backport mid way in between two releases, just use whatever that month is so 19.06 is needed
<OvenWerks> s/is/if/
<Eickmeyer[m]> If that were the case, it would be 19.04.1, not 19.06.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Remember, the yy.mm is always the target, the .s is for minor releases.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, that leaves us with thesame problem.
<Eickmeyer[m]> If you have the autobuild PPA, the autobuild version should always be the version you have, right?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Same with backports.
<OvenWerks> if there is a new release no
<OvenWerks> Any time there is a release that is the same as autobuild, the release should be considered latest
<OvenWerks> backports are releases.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Autobuild is taken from master, and release is a snapshot of what is in autobuild essentially.
<OvenWerks> yes, but that doesn't change things, if I ask someone what version of SW do you have, I should get a release version if there is one available
<OvenWerks> if I get an autobuild version I assume it is alpha or beta not release
<Eickmeyer[m]> I kinda see what youâre saying.
<OvenWerks> I think +git or even +B or +beta would be right
<OvenWerks> +git means where master is right now
<Eickmeyer[m]> I corrected the recipe for -menu to be +git earlier today as you asked. Did you mean -menu-add? Because I didnât touch that one.
<OvenWerks> So if the last release was 19.04 then a beta would be 19.04+git
<OvenWerks> -menu is correct
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, but I would make it 19.04.0+git leaving the .0 for in case I (or Ross) had to do any extra uploads for bug fixes during a freeze.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Forget it. Iâll leave things how they are.
<OvenWerks> Ok, then the change log would have to be changed to add the .0 I think
<OvenWerks> Other wise the recipe would have to be changed if we got to .1
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes. Any versioning would have to be done directly in the change log.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Iâll explain more in the morning. I had a long weekend and am in bed now.
<OvenWerks> Sorry.
<OvenWerks> gn
 * OvenWerks still has to pick his Yf up later
<Eickmeyer[m]> No worries. I might have to make it an email.
<OvenWerks> menu-add doesn't have a recipe.
<OvenWerks> which is good.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I think we'll just leave the version numbers the same now for the sake of simplicity. I get that it can cause confusion.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-21
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: yes headphones are a thing... and jack doesn't deal with it. It is ok to make that a bug :)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: with regard to keyboard volum controls, I do think We can fix that. I would call that a -desktop bug. I don't have a keyboard with volume controls to play with.
<m_ad[m]> isn't there a option to add shortcuts to control the volume with those?
<OvenWerks> Not an obvious one... but yes.
<OvenWerks> The volumcontrol sets this based on what pulse tells them the default output is
<OvenWerks> Thats not a great idea. So normally the volume control deals with hw:0,0,0
<m_ad[m]> On KDE it's easy to set up shortcuts to control the volume but on Xfce i'm struggling to find that and get it done
<OvenWerks> Pulse does have a @default which is always right.
<OvenWerks> If I had a keyboard with Volume controls...
 * OvenWerks keyboard is old enough to have an xt-at switch...
<m_ad[m]> i guess that's really old?
<OvenWerks> early 1980s I guess
<OvenWerks> Full size din plug on it and real switches.
<m_ad[m]> holy keystrokes Batman
<OvenWerks> But yeah, knowing the volume up and down key names is the most important part of making a shortcut
<OvenWerks> pactl set-sink-volume @DEFAULT_SINK@ +1db
<OvenWerks> or something close to that
<OvenWerks> Actually that works. change to -1db for down of course.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It's not a -desktop bug. xfce4-volumed automatically detects whether or not you have media controls on your keyboard and assigns them regardless of keyboard shortcuts. Unfortunately, it does not survive a backend change. Afaik, it's a known bug.
<Eickmeyer> Xubuntu suffers from the exact same problem.
<OvenWerks> But if there is a keyboard shortcut in desktop that should override ?
<Eickmeyer> Nope. xfce4-volumed does not depend on keyboard shortchuts.
<OvenWerks> I understand that, but adding a shortcut may still work around it... maybe it will send both commands
<OvenWerks> In which version did it start not working?
<Eickmeyer> I don't remember. I know I found the fix from something 2016-2017-ish.
<Eickmeyer> The problem is that not all keyboards send the same thing for the volume controls.
<OvenWerks>  :P
<OvenWerks> Is there a small set of what they do send?
<Eickmeyer> I don't know.
<OvenWerks> if it's only one or two or at least less than 10 and those ten are unique, it would be no problem.
<Eickmeyer> I think a decent workaround would be to have -controls do something like "if ${XDG_DESKTOP}=="XFCE"; then killall xfce4-volumed; xfce4-volumed; fi".
<Eickmeyer> ^when "Stop Jack" is pressed."
<OvenWerks> EEEww...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. It sucks.
<OvenWerks> smells anyway.
<Eickmeyer> Very, very stinky, but the problem is that xfce4-volumed wasn't designed with Jack in mind.
<OvenWerks> Actually it is just incorrect, it should use @DEFAULT_SINK@ as the device
<Eickmeyer> As it does, but for some strange reason it doesn't survive a sink change.
<Eickmeyer> The process just hangs, and has to be killed.
<OvenWerks> Hmm The first person I talked to said it was using raw device names
<OvenWerks> like 0,0,0
<OvenWerks> or 0 actually.
<OvenWerks> of course I have not gotten pactl set-sink-volume @DEFAULT_SINK@ +1db to not work here...
<OvenWerks> (18.04)
<OvenWerks> playing on 16.04 on my wife's computer. using Key-Mon it just shows "Vol+" and "Vol-" however when I make a short cut, it is shown as XF86AudioRaiseVolume
<Eickmeyer> Found it. bug 1291855
<ubottu> bug 1291855 in xfce4-volumed (Ubuntu) "After pulseaudio restart, volume keys no longer work" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1291855
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: my understanding has always been that system or DE shortcuts grab the key stroke before any application sees it (causes trouble in Ardour)
<Eickmeyer> Yes, but if we're using xfce, then the xfce "official" way is xfce4-volumed handles the volume control.
<OvenWerks> So does using the mouse wheel on top of the controller icon also not work?
<Eickmeyer> No, that works too, but people would rather use the volume keys sometimes.
 * OvenWerks has never had that happen
<OvenWerks> so the mouse wheel works but the keys don't?
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<OvenWerks> I would think the applet would use the same command for both.
<Eickmeyer> Hence the ancient bug report.
<Eickmeyer> Looking at the package, there has been no bump in version number for several cycles, so the bug hasn't been addressed afaik.
<Eickmeyer> I'm hoping bluesabre has some insight.
<OvenWerks> <property name="XF86AudioRaiseVolume" type="string" value="pactl set-sink-
<OvenWerks> volume @DEFAULT_SINK@ +1db"/>
<OvenWerks> add to /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts.xml
<OvenWerks> The problem should go away.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, so, according to Unit193 and brainwash, they don't even use xfce4-volumed anymore. They use xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin.
<Eickmeyer> That handles the problem.
<Eickmeyer> xfce4-volumed needs to be removed from our seed.
<OvenWerks> hello bitrot
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> Which means we need to remove xfce4-volumed from our seed, make sure we have xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin in our seed, and make sure it's in the default panel.
<OvenWerks> The problem with our setup is that all the machines in the house that xfce run jackd from session start.
<OvenWerks> The one we have is an indicator so it puts itself in the panel by itself.
<Eickmeyer> That's probably indicator-sound, which is also subject to bitrot, and needs to be removed from the seed.
 * Eickmeyer is noticing Xfce is getting less and less friendly to Jack
<OvenWerks> So long as there is something there... and it does work.
 * OvenWerks puts his Yf's machine back the way it was...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Well, if it's working for Xubuntu, then it'll work for us.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: This too: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15332
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 15332 in General "Automatically reconnect to PulseAudio" [Normal,New]
<Eickmeyer> Looks like there's a patch.
<OvenWerks> If it's using dbus to connect and control, dbus should do that for the application
<OvenWerks> In otherwords sending a command message to pulse should make it start if it is stopped and it should not matter if the running instance is the same one or not.
<Eickmeyer> So, shoddy coding?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: just wondering if we should make a bunch of menu categories that are X-us-custom
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: What would that do?
 * Eickmeyer needs examples
<OvenWerks> Well it would make it really easy for our menu-item editor to place items exactly where th euser wants
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-22
<Eickmeyer> Okay, then I say go for it.
<OvenWerks> The down side is that it is specific to our menu files :)
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, not seeing a problem.
<OvenWerks> Right, ok I will make some changes to -menu and then back to -menu-add
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: BTW, there is a new version of ubuntustudio-mennu-add in autobuilds. Please create bugs against it.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Good to know, I'll see what kind of shenanigans I can get myself into.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I can't find a menu entry for ubuntustudio-menu-add anywhere. Can only launch via command.
<Eickmeyer> Also, any changes to items appear to require a log-out/in to take. Is there any way to force a refresh? (using Whisker menu, our default).
<OvenWerks> Whisker menu has been just working for me.
<OvenWerks> I have both.
<OvenWerks> Did you try opening the settings manager?
<OvenWerks> Menu Add should be in there
<Eickmeyer> It's not there.
<OvenWerks> Right, I chose the wrong set... fixed.
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Will wait for the rebuild.
<OvenWerks> I was using xfce-settingspersonal... when I switched to gnome-personal settings it works :P
<Eickmeyer> Odd, but okay! Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<OvenWerks> to use the xfce one, there has to be three categories
<OvenWerks> I was able to use menu-add to test it :)
<OvenWerks> Fix it?
<OvenWerks> The Packaging SW puts some files in /usr/share/doc/packagename/
<OvenWerks> the control file and the changelog compressed
<Eickmeyer> I fixed it by making it "active". Odd that it wasn't already.
<OvenWerks> a lot of packages also have the RAEDME in there too.
<OvenWerks> *README
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: maybe I should make active the default :P
<Eickmeyer> I would. Otherwise I couldn't find menu-add, it just wasn't showing up in Whisker or Menu Item Creator.
<Eickmeyer> er, Whisker or the Settings.
<OvenWerks> I have put a README in the base directory of -controls, but notice it does not end up in there.
<Eickmeyer> That's because anything doc must reside in /usr/share/doc/packagename.
<OvenWerks> So how did the changelog and licence get there?
<Eickmeyer> That happens automatically with debbuild.
<OvenWerks> Is that the only two then?
<Eickmeyer> By default, yes, plus anything in debian/docs, which I just created.
<OvenWerks> I will put my readme in there then.
<Eickmeyer> I already did.
<Eickmeyer> I need to do a pull.
<OvenWerks> you or I
<OvenWerks> ?
<Eickmeyer> I do, for anything you may have done.
<OvenWerks> IS that controls or menu-add
<Eickmeyer> controls
<OvenWerks> That readme is not as important :)
<Eickmeyer> Oh, well, needed to happen anyhow.
<OvenWerks>  I will do menu-add though.
<Eickmeyer> k
<OvenWerks> and default the active to True
<Eickmeyer> ok
<Eickmeyer> I just pushed the "docs" file to -controls, so you'll have to do a pull at your earliest convenience
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: New menu-add building.... use system original now works, there is a help button, some bugs squashed (select a system then don't do anything, but type in a new name and system file is still there as template)
<OvenWerks> active now defaults to True.
<OvenWerks> Awaiting release...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Cool. I'll check it out.
<OvenWerks> still not uploaded
<OvenWerks> Ok thats odd, it says both published and building...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, it means nothing unless there's a green checkmark.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like a huge bunch of the build farm is disabled for some reason.
<Eickmeyer> Like, over 1/3 of it.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It's pretty bad. There's nodes stuck on cleaning for quite some time. I've pinged the proper channels.
<OvenWerks> I think I am done for now. so how long is however long.
<OvenWerks> Seeing estimated time go up instead of down :P
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> Typical build farm being stuck.
<Eickmeyer> Builds for Eoan and Disco just started.
<OvenWerks> just needs publishing
<OvenWerks> Says it's there now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-23
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: with respect to bug #1830201 How is Studio different from xubuntu?
<ubottu> bug 1830201 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "ubiquity-frontend-gtk and ubiquity-frontend-gtk-panel split" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1830201
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm not 100% sure. Came up in a Foundations Team meeting earlier, afaict.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: As I look at the panel, looks like we differ a lot.
<Eickmeyer> Should I change it to match in terms of layout?
 * Eickmeyer has also asked xnox about it
<OvenWerks> I don't know. The easiest thing as said in the bug report, is to just add another package and be happy.
<Eickmeyer> Yes, but as I look at the logs, we haven't changed our default panel layout since 2015, whereas Xubuntu has changed it as recently as this past September.
<Eickmeyer> Makes sense, as I have seen our default panel as a bit glitchy on a default install.
 * OvenWerks is wondering what ubiquity is and what it looks like... I don't use hardly ever I am guessing
<Eickmeyer> Ubiquity is the system installer, i.e. how you get it onto your system. It's in the live ISO.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, this is important as it could make or break our ISOs, so I'm giving this highest priortity.
<OvenWerks> Ah, Ok, I sort of thought so but wasn't sure
<OvenWerks> The only problem I see with changing to whatever xubuntu is doing is if the sw chooser plugin would still work.
<Eickmeyer> Right now, I'm comparing our /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/panel/default.xml to the Xubuntu one to see if we should make some changes.
<Eickmeyer> xfce4-volumed needs to be dropped from our seed for sure.
 * Eickmeyer has noticed running the pulseaudio panel plugin runs much smoother than xfce4-volumed
<OvenWerks> certainly now is the best time to make changes so we have at least one release before LTS.
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<Eickmeyer> xnox wasn't aware that we've been using Xfce since 12.04, so he thought that bug applied to us.
<Eickmeyer> It might not.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/RJ7C2cQn4w/
<Eickmeyer> In other words, it doesn't actually apply to us. So, false alarm.
<Eickmeyer> However, we still need to drop the indicator-* stuff from the seed.
<Eickmeyer> He invalidated the bug.
<OvenWerks> Aside from your first try, I haven't heard from anybody with regard to menu-add
<OvenWerks> I guess not many people follw the devel list
<OvenWerks> I mentioned it in the the user irc channel as well
<OvenWerks> So I guess unless one of us actually finds a bug we should get it released so we can add it to the seed soon as we can.
<OvenWerks> The same is probably true of controls
<OvenWerks> There has to be an actual release before bugs can be filed against things
<Eickmeyer> Which sucks, but it's reality.
<OvenWerks> I am guessing If I want to make changes to menu I should do so.
<Eickmeyer> Yep. I'm working on the panel. Just filed bug 1832063 which should get Ross's attention as well.
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1832063 could not be found
<Eickmeyer> Er, bug 1830263
<ubottu> bug 1830263 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Drop and add packages from seed for panel rework" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1830263
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: does default setting still do all the xfce stuff or is there something for xfce and something else for generic settings?
 * OvenWerks guesses he needs to reclone defaultsettings
<Eickmeyer> Default settings does some default configuation stuff for the Ubuntu Studio session, Xfce has its own defaults that don't require a file.
<Eickmeyer> I just made the changes, but I need Ross to fix and push the meta before I can push default-settings to the repo.
<OvenWerks> Well we have a whole /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/ tree somewhere
<Eickmeyer> That's in -default-settings.
<OvenWerks> That is xfce specific.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, then that's what we've got.
<Eickmeyer> The problem is that the indicator-* packages need to be dropped along with xfce4-volumed since they're all-but depricated.
<OvenWerks> So what does xubuntu use?
<Eickmeyer> I outlined that in the bug report.
<OvenWerks> k
<Eickmeyer> Essentially, xfce4-statusnotifier-pugin and xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin.
<Eickmeyer> *plugin
<OvenWerks> so long as there is still a systray/indicatortray I am happy(ish)
<Eickmeyer> Yes, that's what statusnotifier is.
<OvenWerks> I am thinking of things like qjackctl/qasmixer etc. that have systray icons.
<Eickmeyer> Systray will still be there. That's not changing.
<OvenWerks> So I should look at menu and default-settings then.
<Eickmeyer> I already made the changes to the panel in default-settings.
<OvenWerks> WRT using X-US-* categories: I think we should only use those in categories we spec in -menu and not in the applications.menu and settings.menu which are xfce specific.
<Eickmeyer> Good call.,
<OvenWerks> For that matter, I am thinking that I should remove the Audio settings from the settings.menu and make it more (or completely) stock
<OvenWerks> I will move them to Audio Production->utilities
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Here's the changes I made to the panel (really, a lot of copy/paste from xubuntu-default-settings): https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Wt3MgKQB3C/
<Eickmeyer> You'll see the systray is still there.
<OvenWerks> OK
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: How much do we know about ladi ladish gladish? is it still in development? being maintained?
<OvenWerks> All I get in searches is companies named, people named, places named...
<OvenWerks> commits in 2011 and 14
<Eickmeyer> I'll do a little research.
<Eickmeyer> Hmm... 2014 for ladish and gladish....
<Eickmeyer> ladish.org is dead.
<Eickmeyer> Latest fork is https://github.com/davex25/ladish
<OvenWerks> Now may be a good time to remove the ldai group of programs
<OvenWerks> *ladi
<OvenWerks> They were the only audio bits in settings manager->audio
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Asking in #lad, tagged you.
<Eickmeyer> I'd also ask in #opensourcemusicians, but they can be a little hostile there.
<Eickmeyer> Biggest thing I'm worried about here, as you are, is bitrot.
<OvenWerks> Removing /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menus/xfce-settings-manager.menu removes the two ladi bits from the menu alltogether
<OvenWerks>  I am not sure what else we may be missing.
<Eickmeyer> Other than removing them from the seed?
<OvenWerks> This seems to be new, because on my wife's xubuntu+studio machine they do show up in settings under other
<OvenWerks> (16.04 I think)
<Eickmeyer> Probably just the default.
<Eickmeyer> I have them in settings/audio production
<OvenWerks> Yes they should be there, but only because we modify the settings menu file. This is not something that translates well to other DEs
<OvenWerks> When I remove our version of the file and so use the stock xfce version... things go less well
<OvenWerks> But seem to be ok in 16.04
<OvenWerks> I will look some more, xubuntu may not use stock either.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like ladi(sh)(-tools) might be safe to remove.
<OvenWerks> It was big in the days when the average session was qtrackter for midi, hydrogen for drums, ardour for audio as well as an asortment of jack client synths.
<OvenWerks> so some kind of session manager was really nice to have
<Eickmeyer> Well, this is the only one left: http://non.tuxfamily.org/nsm/
<Eickmeyer> Packaging any of the non-tools was very difficult last I tried.
<OvenWerks>  but sinse Ardour got midi and most of the good synths became plugins... and we have two very nice drum synths.... development stopped.
<OvenWerks> Non-stuff is not well up with things either. Most of the plugins don't work with the mixer... cause it only deals with LV1
<OvenWerks> The owner has lately been hard to keep track of too.
<OvenWerks> But yes nsm is the recomended tool
<Eickmeyer> I'm not a fan of Non-Mixer since it lacks LV2, but NSM might be (barely) worth it.
<OvenWerks> It would give us a session manager.
<Eickmeyer> The other thing is that Xfce has some session management built-in, and Carla can manage connections fairly well.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: If we can package nsm, I'd say it's probably time to remove ladi.
<OvenWerks> do you remember what problems there were with packaging? Can it be worse than Carla?
<Eickmeyer> I remember LP had trouble building it, but that was non-mixer, not nsm.
<OvenWerks> OBS would be nice too
<Eickmeyer> OBS is already in the repos, just needs to be added to the seed.
 * Eickmeyer wrote an email about that
<OvenWerks> I was looking for it earlier and just found open build service
<OvenWerks> I guess I didn't look down the list far enough
<Eickmeyer> !info obs-studio
<ubottu> Package obs-studio does not exist in disco
<Eickmeyer> That's a lie.
<Eickmeyer> !info obs-studio bionic
<ubottu> Package obs-studio does not exist in bionic
<Eickmeyer> ???
<Eickmeyer> ubottu is broken.
<OvenWerks> I just started the download in 18.04
<Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/obs-studio
<Eickmeyer> It's SO there.
<Eickmeyer> The version in Bionic is a bit behind.
 * Eickmeyer might make a backport package if we put it in the seed
<Eickmeyer> Inherited from Debian.
<Eickmeyer> Just made bug 1830271
<ubottu> bug 1830271 in ubuntustudio-meta "Add obs-studio to ubuntustudio-meta seed" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1830271
 * Eickmeyer just ran Mixbus, and was pleasantly surprised wiht how well it blends with the Materia theme
<OvenWerks> Hey OBS looks pretty good. I am looking for a way of doing remote meeting attendance
<OvenWerks> I am thinking stream plus irc
<OvenWerks> Video has lag :)
<Eickmeyer> Yes. Video always has lag.
<Eickmeyer> OBS is nice from a live video perspective, too, since it can do camera switching and stuff. 
<Eickmeyer> I believe it's Jack-aware, too.
<OvenWerks> Yes, but defaults to pulse
<Eickmeyer> As do most things.
<OvenWerks> Hmm Carla shows up in two places. And Carla-control only in video
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's kinda odd that it shows up there.
<OvenWerks> menu bug
<Eickmeyer> Can you fix?
<OvenWerks> yes, I have some menu work to do anyway.
<Eickmeyer> Or do I need to patch the .desktop file?
<Eickmeyer> Okay, cool.
<OvenWerks> Best leave the desktop file alone. Hardcode in menu :P
<Eickmeyer> Good call.
<OvenWerks> (like so many things)
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<OvenWerks> obs works in windows too.
<OvenWerks> That is probably a good thing. The remote meeting participation thing is something where I am likely to be the remote party.
<OvenWerks> Though I could do stream a hangouts window
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. OBS is everywhere. Twitch streamers, YouTube streamers/recorders... it's pretty transcendent.
<OvenWerks> WHat would be the best way to stream to a select audience?
<OvenWerks> As in login maybe not required, but also not listed in some list of current streams either
<Eickmeyer> YouTube can do that. Just set it to private.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if my uplink speed is good enough for very many clients.
<Eickmeyer> Except that would requrie login.
<OvenWerks> and each person would have to have a google/youtube account
<OvenWerks> facebook is same problem
<Eickmeyer> There's a ton of services, but you're probably looking at a custom server.
<OvenWerks> If it could be audio only, mumble would be fine on my server I think.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Mumble has worked for me in the past.
<Eickmeyer> Wow. OBS looks great with the Materia theme too, almost as if we did it on purpose! XD
<OvenWerks> back to the settings manager... It seems the reason I used a custom config file is that stock does not include "Setting" or but rather settings and
<OvenWerks> so the normal setup is that there is a Settings folder on the menu and anything that doesn't end up in the settings manager shows up in the settings folder.
<OvenWerks> I felt that having both a settings manager and a settings folder was not great.
<OvenWerks> So I just dumped anything with "Settings" into the manager.
<OvenWerks> This is actually a great solution for xfce when that was all we supported but does not follow on other DEs and may in fact end up without some settings tools showing up on those DEs
<Eickmeyer> Yes. This is true. Probably best to fix that.
<OvenWerks> fix in which way?
<OvenWerks> Should we add a settings folder back in?
<Eickmeyer> I think that would be a good idea. We need to keep it as DE agnostic as possible now that -installer is what we made it.
<OvenWerks> Ok, we will go back to the stock settings manager menu file then and remove the part of our custom menu that doesn't show settings
<OvenWerks> OBS does not seem to take only the output of windows included in the video :P
<OvenWerks> I guess that makes sense... but it does not allow easy mixing of levels from two windows without using pavucontrol
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, unfortunately. I thought it had a built-in mixer?
<OvenWerks> It does, but inputs from pulse do not include playback sources
<OvenWerks> It is the whole desktop or nothing
<OvenWerks> so... two P-jk bridges, mixer two OBS jack inputs :)
<OvenWerks> Actually mixer not needed
<OvenWerks> It seems the best thing is to turn off the desktop audio and pulse stuff and go all jack.
<Eickmeyer> Interesting.
<OvenWerks> Well for most people they are only doing one desktop app so its fine as is
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Am I removing the ladi hard codes from menu?
<OvenWerks>  (or moving them perhaps?)
<Eickmeyer> Let's keep them in there until I determine if I can get nsm packaged
 * Eickmeyer is in a meeting
<OvenWerks> I think though that I will move them into audio utilities
<OvenWerks> sorry
<Eickmeyer> !info mozo
<ubottu> mozo (source: mozo): easy MATE menu editing tool. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.20.2-1 (disco), package size 75 kB, installed size 648 kB
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Per Wimpress, try that^ for what we're trying to do with -menu-add. Might be we're trying to reinvent the wheel. He's willing to drop the MATE reccommends to a suggests if it works for us.
<OvenWerks> Depends on mate-menus
<OvenWerks> mate is based on gnome3? or is that the one that is a fork of gnome2?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: mozo's depends seem to go deep into Mate teritory. Mozo depends on mate-menus - depends on python-mate-menu - depends on libmate-menu2
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Wimpress is talking about dropping those requirements.
<OvenWerks> That is three levels so far 
<OvenWerks> There is only so far I willing to mess up my system to try it out...
<OvenWerks> this page https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/applications says mozo is a fork of alacart...
 * OvenWerks notes that in his trials of Mate he found that they use the same broken menu config file as gnome 2
<OvenWerks> Part of the reason alacart does not work correctly is because of this broken file.
 * OvenWerks has filed a bug with patch to fix this file which was marked invalid/won't fix.
<OvenWerks> Alacart atempts to do the best it considering the menu config is broken and ends up being frustrating
<OvenWerks> I don't see how Mozo if truely forked from alacart would get around these problems
<Eickmeyer> According to Wimpress, it's completely and 100% XDG-compliant as opposed to Alacarte, so there's that. They (MATE) had the same problems with Alacarte and Menulibre that we do, so he brought this up in the flavors meeting we just finished.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<Eickmeyer> If we can get Wimpress in here to comment on it, I think that would answer your questions about it.
<Eickmeyer> I'm not saying stop your work on -menu-add, but we might have a solution. idk.
<OvenWerks> menu-add is ready so far as I know... except I now need to remove the settings subfolders I added :)
<OvenWerks> But thats ok.
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<OvenWerks> I am guessing I should have attended the meeting too.
<OvenWerks> Sorry
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> We have another one next month :)
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> https://doodle.com/poll/77cwt3ryxef7xxqh
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> tsimonq2: does that table show my time or server?
<tsimonq2> OvenWerks: Your time.
<OvenWerks> cool
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You can also feel free to join #ubuntu-flavors if you want to coordinate there. :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like you triggered a build without a git sync?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I didn't try to start any builds today
<Eickmeyer> Weird. -menu-add just tried to build/upload and errored-out.
<OvenWerks> Which repo?
<Eickmeyer> Autobuilds
<OvenWerks> I don't think I touched menu-add sinse yesterday
<Eickmeyer> Very, very odd.
<OvenWerks> 2will look in a few minutes
<Eickmeyer> No worries.
<OvenWerks> I did switch on daily bu8ilds yesterday maybe it rtied to build for that reason
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that would do it.
<Eickmeyer> LP has intelligence issues. :P
<Eickmeyer> ubottu: Thanks
<ubottu> You're welcome! But keep in mind I'm just a bot ;-)
<Eickmeyer> ubottu: What are launchpad's issues?
<ubottu> Eickmeyer: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
 * Eickmeyer is out
<OvenWerks> Basically it tried to do a build that was already done.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-24
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, turns out (from my lurking) that bluesabre is the maintainer of menulibre, and it is broken in 19.04. That explains a few things, but I don't know if he knew about the bugs people have been having.
<OvenWerks> Menulibre just goes about the menu editing problem from the wrong angle from the begining.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. :/
<OvenWerks> It completely replaces the system config meaning that anyone who adds (as part of a package like wine for example) a menu stub after menulibre has been used... doesn't work.
<Eickmeyer> The xfce4-volumed bug reared its ugly head in a direct personal email I received this morning. I need to figure out how to prevent information like the panel configuration from missing us in the future.
<OvenWerks> If it didn't do that, the fact that it uses a copy of the stock xfce config rather than the active config wouldn't matter
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I also got the same email.
<Eickmeyer> Did this person send it via launchpad to you too?
<OvenWerks> I think part of the problem may be that ubuntu-bug does not work for any package installed that is not release
<OvenWerks> I think so.
<Eickmeyer> Well, I think it's the Xubuntu team knowing about a problem or a deprication (as xfce4-volumed is now depricated, it turns out) and doesn't pass that information along to us if it requrires a fix on our end.
<OvenWerks> in the past zequence was syncing our desktop to xubuntu every cycle. I am not sure what his procedure to do that was.
<Eickmeyer> Was that, perhaps, before Numix became the default?
<OvenWerks> I don't know, sakrecoer may know.
<OvenWerks> themes have never been my thing, I would be happy with the old standard Motif style...
<Eickmeyer> Not a huge deal. But, we need to be staying on top of that. I guess I'll join the Xubuntu devel list.
<OvenWerks> We need to put together a list of packages that need release
<OvenWerks> default settings, controls, menu, menu-add, ?
<Eickmeyer> So far, yes.
<OvenWerks> So far, you are the only one who has tested any of them
<Eickmeyer> It's actually pretty easy to see on Launchpad. Simply look at our git packages and whichever ones have been modified since 19.04 are the ones that will need release.
<Eickmeyer> menu-add is a new package so it will need sponsoring and AA approval.
<Eickmeyer> As such, the package will need to be given all the things.
<OvenWerks> Ok
<OvenWerks> Ya, I may have put the readme in the wrong place. Directly in usr/share/doc/ubuntustudio-menu-add/
<OvenWerks>  I see controls is different
<Eickmeyer> Readme can be in the root directory of the git repo.
<OvenWerks> I think it is there too
<OvenWerks> I wanted to have it where I could drop it in the GUI... but it was easier to just put the text there from the get go
<Eickmeyer> It doesn't need to be in usr/share/doc/ubuntustudio-menu-add. That's done automatically by dh_docs.
<bluesabre> xfce4-volumed(-pulse) is not necessarily deprecated, but we opted to use xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin after taking up maintainership of it a couple years ago
<bluesabre> As for the menulibre bugs, I'll be working those out this weekend. Wasn't aware of them prior to the disco release
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: I'll try it out when you are done.
<bluesabre> OvenWerks: thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-25
<Eickmeyer> bluesabre: I think I speak for the whole team here (really, myself and OvenWerks) when we say that we want our panel (and all installed plugins) to match as closely as possible.
<Eickmeyer>  Additionally, I was told by xnox that the indicator-sound and indicator-application packages (really, anything indicator*) are depricated. That's what we currently use to display the volume control.
<Eickmeyer> So, I think it would be in our best interest to match Xubuntu on installed UI defaults as closely as possible, with the changes being in the theming and wallpaper.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: m_ad[m] had mentioned he'd do testing.
<m_ad[m]> OvenWerks: iso testing is what i wanted to start and helped out with during the last week of the release cycle :)
<m_ad[m]> maybe i can do more in the near future after i dealt with some things i private land
<OvenWerks> m_ad[m]: no problem.
<m_ad[m]> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-18
<OvenWerks> eylul[m]: Have you tried Lubuntu?
<OvenWerks> eylul[m]: specifically, even from the live ISO, from configuration center (Settings) there is a brightness control.
<OvenWerks> does that work with your tablet?
<OvenWerks> it does work with my main monitors, vga and hdmi. Intel graphics mind you.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the new installer seems fine so far... not that different than the old. Be nice if it wasn't full screen :)
 * OvenWerks doesn't like full screen anything
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ovenwerks not yet... :) but the bug is because of nvidia driver so I doubt it. (I will try it at some point through)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Calamares doesn't have to be full-screen. In fact, I have it configured for us so that it's *not* full-screen.
<RikMills> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2020-May/011840.html
<RikMills> tsimonq2 Eickmeyer ^
<astraljava> CI? Has Canonical dropped support from derivates? I know, I've been away for a long time.
<studiobot> <teward001> RikMills: Not surprised to hear that, but I'm assuming they can't just migrate to a-la Jenkins like Lubuntu did?  :P
<studiobot> <teward001> (Simon's currently hammering the Lubuntu CI xD)
<RikMills> one option is to do just that. I'm going to see if I can throw Simon some job configs in the next few days, and try to set up a test instance
 * OvenWerks wonders what "CI" is.
<OvenWerks> astraljava: in Studio, we are making big changes right now... right after the LTS, to be ready for the next LTS in a few years. Canonical does not seem to work that way. major lib changes that drop useful packages for flavours seem to happen about the time the LTS beta comes out.
<OvenWerks> astraljava: you can call that support (or lack there of) or whatever. It does not help to have a great LTS release
<housecat> CI = continuous integration
<housecat> automated builds and such
<OvenWerks> housecat: got it thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-19
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: working on phones un/plugged action.
<OvenWerks> wondering which options to play with
<Eickmeyer> Did you ever find a common link between all hardware?
<OvenWerks> assume speakers may be hooked up to jackmaster
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: no but most these days are mute phone crank speaker/front
<Eickmeyer> Sounds about right.
<OvenWerks> I will not try to deal with anything else
<Eickmeyer> Happens at the alsa level, aiui.
<OvenWerks> how ever, an intrepid user can find space to A: add to /etc/acpi/studio.sh or B: add a script to .config/audojack/ with the right name.
<OvenWerks> *autojack
<Eickmeyer> What if we had a default in /etc that could be overridden with something in .config?
 * Eickmeyer is spitballing
<OvenWerks> if exist ~/.config/autojack/headphones {execute that script} else {do the default}
<Eickmeyer> Exactly. Which is how most things configure anyhow.
<OvenWerks> the part in /etc/acpi/* has to be there to catch the plug signal. The script there now just sends a debus signal that autojack catches
<Eickmeyer> Even one's default gtk theme is in /etc/gtk-3.0/settings.ini except when overridden by .config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini
<OvenWerks> (I probably have that signal wrong right now)
<Eickmeyer> I'm not 100% sure there's a user-level equivalent for /etc/acpi.
<OvenWerks> nope, besides there are some things that would have to be done as root anyway so far as I know
<Eickmeyer> True.
<OvenWerks> headphones may not be hooked up to jack master. So what to do whenthey are plugged in? Add bridge and move everything connected to system_1/2 to that bridge?
<OvenWerks> offer a choice?
<OvenWerks> what choices?
<Eickmeyer> hmm....
<Eickmeyer> Usually this all gets handled at the alsa level for that particular device. Are we bridging to alsa or are we connecting directly to the device?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: no it gets handled by pulse
<Eickmeyer> Ah.
<astraljava> OvenWerks: Right, yeah I am not surprised. Flavors have always been a mixed bag of happiness and grief.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: bug 1877806 seems to be affected by all LV2 plugins. I just did a test myself and yes, attempting to save a preset for an LV2 does indeed crash Ardour. Not just calf.
<ubottu> bug 1877806 in ardour (Ubuntu) "ardour crashes when saving lv2 plugin preset" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1877806
<Eickmeyer> Do you think anybody is interested in fixing this? I'm inclined to say no, since 6.0 is on the verge of release.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: 5.12 will not recieve bug fixes nor will there be a 5.13
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is this a new for 20.04 problem?
<OvenWerks> so 6.0 would be considered the fix.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: which plugin should I try?
<OvenWerks> the two so far I have tried do not seem to have a save preset button.
 * OvenWerks doesn't use this facility...
<OvenWerks> LSP compression mono: add preset, ok. add a second preset, OK, switch from preset to preset, OK...
<OvenWerks> tried two more (dragonfly and eq4q) saving presets seems to work.
<OvenWerks> All tests have been with ubuntu repo ardour 5
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: can you give specific plugins for me to test?
<OvenWerks> Calf eq 8 also works
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I tried LSP compression mono.
<Eickmeyer> This is the same bug we thought was related to calf but is not.
<Eickmeyer> So, what I did was open a new project, add a track, add LSP compression mono to it, go up to preset, click "Add" name it, made changes, clicked "Save" and Ardour crashed.
<OvenWerks> So what is different from my system to your's
<Eickmeyer> I'm not sure. But I just tried it again and it crashed.
<Eickmeyer> Same steps as above.
<Eickmeyer> Merely clicking on "Save" in an LV2 plugin after creating a preset crashes it every time.
<OvenWerks> So what does save do? (save does crash things)
<Eickmeyer> It's supposed to save any changes you make to the selected preset. This is in the plugin window, not the main window.
<Eickmeyer> It just crashed when creating a preset on VST plugins.
<OvenWerks> but if I just add presets... they stay there on next session start
<OvenWerks> with no save
<Eickmeyer> Yes, but try clicking save.
<OvenWerks> I understand that, but it apears that save has nothing to do with presets.
<OvenWerks> Adding presets already saves them.
<Eickmeyer> If you hover over it, the tooltip says "save the current preset".
<Eickmeyer> So, say you want to make changes to the preset. You can't.
<OvenWerks> even starting a new session and adding the same plugin shows those presets that were made on another session
<Eickmeyer> But that's not the point.
<OvenWerks> I understand it is not the point.
<Eickmeyer> I'm saying it's a confirmed bug. I am guessing that it's not a bug that the Ardour team can or wants to fix.
<OvenWerks> I am wanting to know what added functionality that button does. I can add the same preset a second time and it saves the changes.
<OvenWerks> (asks if it should overwrite
<Eickmeyer> That would be a workaround. The Save button is supposed to do that without asking to overwrite.
<Eickmeyer> Except I just did your workaround and it crashed.
<OvenWerks> So now my next test will be if this is also true in 18.04
<OvenWerks> once the save button has been clicked, the add button will crash also on the same session
<OvenWerks> I will try ardour from ardour.org, ardour from ubuntu on 18.04 (which is different because you had to fiddle with it to make it work on 20.04... this may be part of the same lib problem)
<OvenWerks> this may be a package problem rather than an ardour bug
<Eickmeyer> Right, and that's what we need to figure out. What build dep is missing?
<Eickmeyer> It's not giving me any crash logs to find out what's going on.
<OvenWerks> I am pretty sure I have done a rebuild since then... maybe not full will try.
<OvenWerks> out cppunit seems to be quite old.
<OvenWerks> when doing config, I get: Checking for 'cppunit' >= 1.12.0                     : not found 
<OvenWerks> installer shows version 1.4.0
<Eickmeyer> Confirmed on that.
<Eickmeyer> Launchpad is acting funny this morning.
<Eickmeyer> Strange, should be 1.15.
<Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cppunit
<Eickmeyer> Is cppunit a build dep? I'm not seeing it as a build dep.
<Eickmeyer> (for Ardour)
<OvenWerks> waf configure looks for it... but I am building 6.0
<OvenWerks> so it may not be a build dep for 5.12
<Eickmeyer> Oh ok. That does make sense. The question is why you have cppunit 1.4 when 1.15 is in the archives.
<OvenWerks> 6.0 does build with out that lib
<OvenWerks> muon does not show a later version
<OvenWerks> just found it
<OvenWerks> Ah for unit testing so nothing to do with building the exec just building the unit tests
<OvenWerks> That is not my problem
<Eickmeyer> Oh, good.
<OvenWerks> debug won't even run
<Eickmeyer> Great.
<Eickmeyer> And I suppose nobody else from the Ardour team will help us figure this out because ERR:NotOurBuild
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Same issue with my no-changes rebuild. I can't even narrow-down the library
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Here's the error it gives me when run from the terminal: IA__gdk_window_get_origin: assertion 'GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Maybe related? https://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=7543
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/trace20200519.txt
<OvenWerks> when running debug I get that
<OvenWerks> looks like it is looking for something in libjack
<Eickmeyer> Hmmm.... might have to rebuild against current jack
<Eickmeyer> I literally just now got my upload rights, and with that I can upgrade Jack.
<Eickmeyer> I'd have to do a local build, however.
<Eickmeyer> Because I can only upgrade it in groovy, not focal, because that would require an SRU, but there's also new features.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Even if I use direct alsa it still does that. Why is it calling libjack?
<OvenWerks> well from there I can continur and ardour does start up
<Eickmeyer> Oh, that was during startup?
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> the crash at save is: http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/trace20200519-2.txt
<Eickmeyer> Oh, the crash I'm having (and the bug is having) is inside a plugin window.
<Eickmeyer> All signs are pointing to glib2.0
<OvenWerks> https://github.com/lv2/lilv/issues/32
<OvenWerks> this is what Robin thinks after looking at the trace
<Eickmeyer> David seems to think he fixed it.
<OvenWerks> yes, but do we have the new version?
<Eickmeyer> Version in Focal is 2.4.6, so no.
<OvenWerks> no
<Eickmeyer> Vision in Groovy? Yes.
<Eickmeyer> Therefore it's a matter of grabbing the one in Groovy and backporting it to focal.
<OvenWerks> in my case 20.04
<Eickmeyer> I'm also on 20.04
<Eickmeyer> I want to upgrade when we get calamares going.
<Eickmeyer> Dangit, lilv isn't in the packageset.
<OvenWerks> hard dep though
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> I'm going to see if we can get it added.
<Eickmeyer> Also going to see if we can SRU this bad boy.
<OvenWerks> I guess we should boot 20.10 and cheack that the bug is gone...
<OvenWerks> I can do that later... but need to help my son with school
<Eickmeyer> Rats, you're right.
<Eickmeyer> I'll try it in a VM.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Unable to even try it in a VM, so I did it on bare metal. Unable to reproduce there, so that tells me Robin is right.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Made a request: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001507.html
<Eickmeyer> Maybe tsimonq2 can handle the request? ^ (I have some calamares stuff to ask as well)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: good... well no not, not good but at least solved
<OvenWerks> what differences are there from our version to the next? Is ir just a bug fix or is there more?
<OvenWerks> I notice that those plugins use inline graphics too. Cool. I think they can safely replace calf.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You mean lsp-plugins?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: As far as differences, it looks like it's definitely a bugfix release. If the SRU team disagrees, I guess I can cherry-pick the commit attached to the issue.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-20
<OvenWerks> i meant liblilv
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ">	I notice that those plugins use inline graphics too. Cool. I think they can safely replace calf." That cannot be referring to liblilv.
<OvenWerks> liblilv was refering to the last release being a bug fix or more?
 * OvenWerks must have been talking out of both sides of the mouth... about different things
<Eickmeyer> hahaha
<Eickmeyer> So yeah, lilv's change is a bunch of bugfixes, no features afaict. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/primary/+files/lilv_0.24.6-1_0.24.8~dfsg0-1.diff.gz
<nf9c> Through refind I have spotted 2 icons that both load UbuntuStudio 20.10 (Groovy Gorilla). What I want to know is, why does clicking on one of them show me the boot up process whith a standard white text label of Ubuntu Studio,  and the other icon I can click on to launch Ubuntu Studio, doesn't show me the bootup process just the white text confirming what Linux distro I'm booting into that has a blueish glow surrounding the letters.    
<nf9c>   
<Eickmeyer> nf9c: Not sure, we don't support refind. Also, please don't come to the development collaboration channel for support.
<Eickmeyer> !support | nf9c 
<ubottu> nf9c: This is the Ubuntu Studio development channel. Our official support channel is on #ubuntustudio. Also see https://askubuntu.com
<nf9c> Sorry if I mis interpretted what I can ask here.  So sorry to have stepped on your fragile little toes
<Eickmeyer> nf9c: I'd suggest cutting the snark.
<nf9c> you sounded snarky to me
<nf9c> sorry anyways bad day
<Eickmeyer> nf9c: I understand, but we have channels done that way for a reason.
<Eickmeyer> nf9c: Long-story short, there's no way to answer your question, refind is unsupported and outside of our scope.
<nf9c> did't mean to bark back at you especially if you weren't intending to come across that way
<nf9c> no problem thanks for the redirect I will ask there
<Eickmeyer> nf9c: You probably won't get any help there this time of day, I'd suggest asking in ##linux.
<Eickmeyer> nf9c: Also, if you're on 20.10, you realize it's pre-pre-alpha, right?
<Eickmeyer> Anyhow, just making sure. 
 * Eickmeyer heads to bed
<nf9c> oh ok. and uh nope I didn't realize that.  Thanks.. Sorry again for my outburst if you weren't trying to be mean with you first response Eickmeyer
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am thinking of offering four choices for action when the headphones are plugged in: switch, always leave headphone levels up, always leave speaker level up, always leave all levels alone
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sounds good to me.
<Eickmeyer> teward, tsimonq2: Are either of you around?
<OvenWerks> I don't know if this would be a part of those options, but I would also like to add a bridge pch device when phones plugged in and transfer or duplicate all system_1/2 connections to that bridge.
<teward> alive but in the middle of filing followup bugs to another bug we fixed in LP
<teward> we being Canonical and my contribs
<OvenWerks> (in the case the PCH device is not already being used)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Woah, sounds ambitious.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Did you see what I wrote re lilv for the packageset?
<OvenWerks> yeah, but logical...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Indeed.
<teward> teward: yes.  so did Simon and the rest of people.  How absolutely critical is it right now that you have rights
<teward> like today vs. a few days from now?
<Eickmeyer> teward: Well, we have some functionality in Ardour that is missing/crashing due to this, so we need the SRU especially since that takes 7 days.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, lilv is out-of-date.
<teward> SRU isn't going to matter
<Eickmeyer> And the version in focal is buggy.
<teward> even if you had upload privs it'd be held for SRU review
<teward> if you have packages/diffs I can push those *now* but they'll still be held for SRU team to review/release
<teward> have you checked with the release/sru team to gauge their willingness to support an SRU for these cases?
<Eickmeyer> I did a debdiff in the SRU, but then I need a sponsor.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: also it would not hurt to add youself to the "this bug affects me" list.
<teward> Eickmeyer: i can sponsor it for now.
<teward> link the diff.
<teward> or bug
<teward> i can at least get it into the queue
<teward> subscribe sru team to the bug too
<Eickmeyer> teward: https://launchpad.net/bugs/1877806
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1877806 in ardour (Ubuntu Focal) "[SRU] ardour crashes when saving lv2 plugin preset - bug discovered in lilv" [Undecided,Triaged]
<Eickmeyer> You'll notice all of the relevant teams are subscribed.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Did that. :)
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> makes testing eisier
<OvenWerks> new spelling for easier?
<Eickmeyer> Maybe, I'll ask Oxford.
<teward> Eickmeyer: give me a few hours in the middle of poking some things
<Eickmeyer> teward: No worries. Seems as though rbasak couldn't even look at it anyhow.
<teward> rbasak's busy as heck lol
 * Eickmeyer doesn't like it when his timezone doesn't line-up with anyone else
<Eickmeyer> Except Wednesday is his SRU hours.
<teward> trust me there's a lot of backlog that he also has to address
<Eickmeyer> I understand. I guess it annoys me when 1) there's a bug that is completely fixable, 2) I know how to fix it, and 3) I can't fix it on my own and everyone else is too busy. I don't like to let these things sit. It's counter-productive.
 * Eickmeyer thinks the SRU teams and release teams are overall lacking in numbers
<Eickmeyer> teward: Looks like ddstreet took care of the packageset request.
<teward> yep
<teward> Eickmeyer: ddstreet was kind enough to take my held over tasks to let me focus on my main jobs
<teward> cause they became chaos :p
<Eickmeyer> teward: Yeah, that's the impression I have.
<teward> yeah it's temporary chaos but it's chaos nonetheless
<teward> not burnout just E:BUSY :)
<Eickmeyer> Right. Let's hope it never comes to burnout.
<teward> Eickmeyer: package fubar?
<teward> > It has a dependency issue I need to resolve
<teward> ah
<teward> OK
<Eickmeyer> teward: Yeah, basically it wants the newer version of lv2 which I'm not willing to backport. Therefore, I'm in patch hell.
<teward> welcome to Hell, population Dependencies
<teward> :P
<teward> Dep Hell is the worst hell xD
<teward> Eickmeyer: if I may ask why don't you want to backport lv2?
<teward> just curious.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Because then that would require every lv2 plugin to be rebuilt against the newer library, which would cause a ton of FTBFS issues since the API changed a little with the new library.
<teward> ah
<Eickmeyer> Same issue we ran into with lsp-plugins.
<teward> ah, yes, indeed.
<teward> well, good luck xD
<Eickmeyer> Ha, thanks. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-21
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 I miraculously pulled it off. There's an upload awaiting SRU with some cherry-picked patches.
<OvenWerks> Ardour is 6.0 rc2, release in 24 to 48 houors it seems.
<OvenWerks> probably 6.1 by the time 20.10 does freeze
<tsimonq2> $ ./edit-acl -P ubuntustudio add -S groovy -s calamares-settings-ubuntu
<tsimonq2> Added:
<tsimonq2> calamares-settings-ubuntu
<tsimonq2> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/groovy/ubuntustudio should update shortly but LP sees it (which is what matters).
<Eickmeyer> Ok, here we go. Calamares is now seeded, we should have something to test in about 3 hours.
<Eickmeyer> (since that's when the daily build is usually done)
 * RikMills looks on in interest
<Eickmeyer> So, Calamares failed only because I (and others) forgot to change one little thing. Also, the installer icon on the desktop doesn't show because Casper doesn't know any better, but I have a PR in to fix that. In the meantime, the installer icon should show in default favorites as soon as I can rebuild the ISO.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, that requires the Calamares settings to migrate, and we're waiting on a riscv64 build for that.
<Eickmeyer> And, unfortunately, all of the LGW builders are down, which means the LCY builders have to take most of the processing. Basically, half of the builders are down.
<Eickmeyer> Actually, that's 2/3 of the builders.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-22
 * RikMills tries calamares on studio
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: I'm running a rebuild now. The version you have likely doesn't have the fixes I made.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, even with the LGW builders back online, looks like it will be a while.
<Eickmeyer> Oh! It's building. Roughly 30 minutes.
<RikMills> I updated the settings package before I started from the one now in release
<Eickmeyer> Good call. :)
<RikMills> Install suceeded!
<Eickmeyer> \o/
<RikMills> sddm is a black screen :/
<Eickmeyer> I might have to fix that, it shouldn't be.
<OvenWerks> black is the new orange ...
<Eickmeyer> Right now, the default sddm theme is pointing to a symlink, so it might be that the path must be explicitly stated. Not too hard, just a PITA in the future.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: sddm looks fine in the live session. I'll try an install, but I don't know how it didn't translate into the install for you.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Fresh install, no issues with sddm. Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<RikMills> weird
<Eickmeyer> Granted, I'm using a different ISO build than you are, so maybe that might have something to do with it?
<Eickmeyer> Overall, I'm very pleased with how this turned out.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: If you want to switch to Calamares, you could probably do everything I did and just Kubuntu-ify it.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: pondering it. I want OEM install mode though, so want to see how that gets on
<Eickmeyer> Calamares has an OEM install mode, but I don't know how well it works or what it takes.
<Eickmeyer> That's a question for tsimonq2, for sure, or really anyone ese in l-d.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Basically, XDG layering.
<tsimonq2> That's on my TODO list for today actually.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Cool!
<Eickmeyer> BTW, I'm typing this from my brand new Groovy install.
<tsimonq2> Nice.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: So, I noticed that after install, it left an extra file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/dvd.list. Any way to get Calamares to remove that?
<tsimonq2> Er, wat?
<tsimonq2> Looking.
<Eickmeyer> that dvd.list might be a Studio-only thing from eons ago.
<tsimonq2> before_bootloader_context.conf
<tsimonq2> That was what my instinct told me.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, just put a "rm ..." line in there?
<tsimonq2> No, not exactly.
<tsimonq2> First, test if it's an Ubuntu Studio-ism
<Eickmeyer> I know that dvd is, because Studio was the first to require a DVD-ROM.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Adding this: "command: if [ -f /etc/apt/sources.list.d/dvd.list ]; then; rm /etc/apt/sources.list.d/dvd.list; fi" with a timeout: 10
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: (minus the ; after then)
<tsimonq2> Cool.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/anyone-encountering-rt-jack-issues-after-upgrading-to-ubuntu-20-04-lts/103477/25
<OvenWerks> I guess this is something we may have to look at in the future
<OvenWerks> it seems to be unique to gnome-shell or perhaps wayland
<OvenWerks> more than one person has had this problem.
<OvenWerks> He say no running wayland
<Eickmeyer> Hmmmm....
<Eickmeyer> (page it taking forever to load)
<OvenWerks> anyway, my son wants help with school
<Eickmeyer> That is mine usually.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I can't read that page, but 20.04 uses X by default. I don't see the relevant comment where they're using Wayland, I only see where they didn't have lowlatency installed.
<Eickmeyer> Rather, I finally got to that page.
<OvenWerks> down lower they had to manipulate c-groups
<OvenWerks> It seems that systemd was giving them rt in a different cgroup than jack was running
<OvenWerks> wayland is not the problem
<OvenWerks> And it seems it is only "some systems" which makes no sense at all
<OvenWerks> the problem on the ardour forums is that people say "Ubuntu" which may mean any flavour.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: There's no real way of knowing. Also, 20.04.1 is due out in a couple months, and we *know* from past experiences that LTS releases get better with time and that they're *never* great day of release.
<Eickmeyer> For instance, stuff with lilv that we ran into. We fixed it, and it will be part of 20.04.1.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-23
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Another question. For some unknown reason, either during or after install, /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf (installed by jackd) gets renamed to audio.conf.disabled. Is there any way to prevent that from happening?
<Eickmeyer> (Only workaround so far: "command: if [ -f /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled ]; then mv /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf; fi")
<Eickmeyer> And I don't know if that is going to work since it might happen later.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, so it worked. The user has realtime audio permissions by default.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I thought preseed/ubuntustudio.seed was supposed to do that
<OvenWerks> jackd2  jackd/tweak_rt_limits   boolean true
 * OvenWerks wonders if we could add that to -installer
<OvenWerks> Ah that file is probably not read by the new installer
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, it doesn't matter anyways if the requirement is that etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf exists and user is in the audio group.
<Eickmeyer> Which is what I fixed.
<OvenWerks> From git.ardour.org:ardour/ardour
<OvenWerks>    a4a96f7556..360c81b815  master     -> origin/master
<OvenWerks>  * [new tag]               6.0        -> 6.0
<OvenWerks> \o/
<OvenWerks> release announcement today or tomorrow
<Eickmeyer> Nice!
<OvenWerks> So whoever does debian packaging may want to start on it... and backports I guess too.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I don't know who exactly does the packaging upstream, but I'd like to pull whatever they come up wiht.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2, teward: I could've sworn I asked for this in an email, but would either of you be willing to put your DMB hat on and add materia-kde to the Ubuntu Studio packageset? I tried to upload a new version and was surprised when it was rejected.
<tsimonq2> $ ./edit-acl -P ubuntustudio add -S groovy -s materia-kde
<tsimonq2> Added:
<tsimonq2> materia-kde
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: ta
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: edit-acl commands > "can you please add it to the packageset" :)
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Is that one way I can request it?
<teward> no
<teward> thats a DMB only command
<teward> tsimonq2: you sure that will survive the updates?  ubuntustudio is part of the autogenerated sets I think
<Eickmeyer> I think it's in the seed.
<tsimonq2> teward: No, I'm not sure.
<tsimonq2> That's your job.
<tsimonq2> :P
 * tsimonq2 shoots teward for reasons
<Eickmeyer> Well, it's in the seed now. :P
<Eickmeyer> There needs to make a way to make certain things persist if that's the case.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-24
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I did something for you (and me): switched the default menu to something like Xfce's *old* default, which I think is the menu you prefer. I believe the menu is called "Kicker".
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Scratch that, it didn't work. It's not as default-configurable as Kickoff.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the default plasma menu is pretty close to whisker, which a lot of people has liked
<OvenWerks> though the win95 style menu does provide a search box too
<OvenWerks> I think it would have to be set as part of the panel
<OvenWerks> it says kicker is the panel... ok
<OvenWerks> it may be the applications launcher that needs to be configured.
<OvenWerks> the problem is... I don't seem to be able to find either the kicker/panel/whatever or application launcher config in my home directory.. so no hint where to look in the system
<OvenWerks> there is no nice plasma directory in /etc/xdg/ like xfce has
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, the thing is that Plasma uses a different configuration for the way its menus are configured specifically while still honoring XDG for the menus themselves. Either way, it's not a huge issue, it was just an experiment. Easy commit to revert.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Ardour 6.0 is official.
<Eickmeyer> \o/
<Eickmeyer> Now we just wait for Debian... but I might come up with a plan B if Feature Freeze starts creeping up.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: RWT headphones, I was going to offer options on plugin in/out. switch, mute speakers only (leave headphone levels up), nothing. 
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am trying to think what the user "expects". In the case where PCH is not even in use right now.
<OvenWerks> for example.
 * OvenWerks is thinking out loud
<OvenWerks> If someone plugs in phones, they expect to hear audio in them. And I think they expect audio from the speakers to vanish too.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, I think you've mentioned this before.
<OvenWerks> yeah, So... I think I will leave the phones level alone and the speaker level alone but use the mutes to switch.
<OvenWerks> That way the levels will remain. However, if the phones level is -inf, then I think we need to set it to -10 on plug.
