#ubuntu-uds-community-1 2013-11-19
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
<ubuntu-goldfish> hey everyone!
<shrini> hello
<amjjawad> balloons: hi
<amjjawad> balloons: have you found a new Headset/Mic? :D
<balloons> I have quite the setup, but google doesn't like the mic
<balloons> so it seems
<balloons> how are you amjjawad ?
<amjjawad> Oh, that is not good to know :/
<amjjawad> Well, I finally slept more than 3 hours at night :D
<amjjawad> So, I guess I am ready for the meeting
<amjjawad> shall we test the voice quality if you wish?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | QA Community Workflows | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21981/community-1311-quality-defining-workflows/
<balloons> ok hangout info is up, for whomever wants to be a part
<chilicuil> I'll follow by irc =)
<elopio> hello
<cragdor> Hi
<cragdor> Hasn't started yet
<elopio> cragdor: it should start in 1 minute.
<cragdor> Starting now.............
<cragdor> Drat missed
<amjjawad> hello everyone
<amjjawad> balloons: is having tech issues with his internet
<cgoldberg> hello amjjawad
<amjjawad> cgoldberg: hi :)
<balloons> just a moment my friends, sorry for the delay :-)
<amjjawad> we were testing the hangout and there is a huge delay
<amjjawad> tyt balloons
<cragdor> NP
<cragdor> Your hangout is hanging??
<elopio> it hasn't started here.
<amjjawad> there is delay guys
<amjjawad> the voice reach after one min :D
<amjjawad> hopefully we start soon :)
 * chilicuil goes for some milk + cookies
<cragdor> Can i sit now, i've been standing for a while now?!
<cragdor> :)
<amjjawad> cragdor: have a seat, please :P
<balloons> Let's talk via IRC for the moment while I work on this
<amjjawad> ok
<balloons> I'm terribly sorry
<amjjawad> no it is fine
<amjjawad> it happens
<cragdor> IRC FTW
<balloons> ok, so welcome to the session on QA Community roles :-
<balloons> check out the pad for the agenda
<balloons> basically, let's talk about the new roles that have been created, and go through the ideas and questions.. any feedback is good, etc
<amjjawad> balloons: I will hold my hope high waiting for the Hangout :D
<amjjawad> so will keep my notes for now if that is okay
<balloons> the big piece is to get some more work items around expanding the concept of roles and trying to make it easier for everyone to connect with and contribute to ubuntu quality
<amjjawad> while waiting to go live, I'd like to share this with all:
<amjjawad> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnome-qa
<chilicuil> are those roles gonna have their own lp groups or it'll be just a local distintion?, to make diferent wiki sections or somethink like that?
<AlbertoSN> Isn't hangout working?
<balloons> AlbertoSN, sadly at the moment no, so we're on IRC
<AlbertoSN> Ou...
<amjjawad> balloons: has sent an email on the QA Mailing List some months ago and I decided to be the driver for a focus group to find more testers and well, I guess Ubuntu GNOME QA Team has done a successful job :)
<amjjawad> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnome-qa
<balloons> chilicuil, the roles are going to be local distinction imho
<balloons> I don't see a need for different wiki sections
<amjjawad> +1 no need for new Wiki or LP accounts
<amjjawad> this is waste of time and resources IMHO
<knome> launchpad groups are good if the teams need specific access to LP features though
<amjjawad> knome: yes, but everyone can be part of one LP area better than dividing them :)
<knome> amjjawad, i think you are missing my point
<amjjawad> for two years, I guess I have seen the good side and the bad side of having so many sub-teams
<ali1234> where is the video?
<amjjawad> knome: I'd be very glad to know your point better :D
<balloons> for context for anyone who hasn't seen the page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/
<amjjawad> ali1234: we are having tech issue so hope we go live soon
 * balloons is going live
<balloons> reload the page
<ali1234> working :)
<AlbertoSN> Ouuu
<AlbertoSN> Yes
<Moshad> I didnt see the video window
<Moshad> only chat
<amjjawad> balloons: nothing here :/
<chilicuil> live here
<knome> balloons, i can see you.
<AlbertoSN> :P
<amjjawad> balloons: Waiting for people to join this video call...
<Moshad> where is the link?
<amjjawad> oh ok, link plz balloons
<knome> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if4Tm5O9-Ws
<AlbertoSN> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21981/community-1311-quality-defining-workflows/
<balloons> if you want to join: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpio1bovoaf61p6gt5i29hps?authuser=0&hl=en
<AlbertoSN> Sorry, I'm unable to speak at this time; since people is sleeping
<AlbertoSN> But latter
<knome> did AlbertoSN just bark? ;)
<AlbertoSN> Nou
<AlbertoSN> My mic is muted
<knome> i'm just kidding
<AlbertoSN> :P
<balloons> that was my dog, hah
<amjjawad> balloons: can you hear me?
<knome> me neither
<amjjawad> balloons: sorry link again :P
<chilicuil> I think those roles are enough
<AlbertoSN> I can say I recently read the wiki, and it looks very well to me
<chilicuil> about the mentorship process I'm not sure, that's a good idea, however I've seen a lot of previous attemps not only in the qa community and all of them had failed, so I wonder whether this new attempt will be sucessfully
<amjjawad> balloons: link please :D
<balloons> amjjawad, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpio1bovoaf61p6gt5i29hps?authuser=0&hl=en
<chilicuil> +1 for better (video) tutorials
<knome> having to commit to something might scare off some mentors.
<knome> so +1 for informal stuff
<knome> can't hear ali, but can see him opening his mouth
<AlbertoSN> Yes, video is laggy
<Moshad> network problem
<Moshad> yeah
<amjjawad> balloons:
<amjjawad> the internet is so bad :(
<AlbertoSN> Not mine
<ali1234> video = unintelligible
<amjjawad> balloons: there is delay
<AlbertoSN> I'm so sorry to be unable to talk: I'll try now not making so much noise.
<balloons> amjjawad, I'm sorry
<dobey-uds> video is very skippy for balloons yes
<Moshad> yes
<chilicuil> heere as well
<amjjawad> balloons: too bad :(
<AlbertoSN> DO you hear me?
<AlbertoSN> Video is frozen
<amjjawad> anything can be done at all?
<amjjawad> frozen here too
<Moshad> here the sma
<Moshad> same*
<knome> sounds like balloons was inside a metallic tube
<AlbertoSN> Yesss
<AlbertoSN> Metalic sound
<Moshad> freezing, and robotic
<AlbertoSN> Nou
<shadeslayer> something from the Kubuntu side of things, the current test cases for ISO's don't really make sense, so we made https://trello.com/b/sdTmhD0H/14-04-deadlines
<shadeslayer> which has regressions we've experienced in the past
<dobey-uds> balloons: yep, still choppy
<dobey-uds> audio is choppy
<ali1234> if you're asking "is this any better?": no, it's still awful
<balloons> does the audio come through?
<amjjawad> balloons: nop
<knome> balloons, barely
<amjjawad> nothing at all
<Moshad> i cant understand a word
<dobey-uds> elopio: say something
<ali1234> audio comes through but it is impossible to tell what you are saying, you sound like peanuts
<DanChapman> wow hangouts playing nasty today
<dobey-uds> someone other than balloons in the hangout, say something
<amjjawad> yes for what?? :D
<balloons> can you hear the other participants in the hangouts?
<ali1234> whoever just said "yes", sounds ok :)
<balloons> let's keep going on IRC then. I'll type
<ali1234> yes :)
<balloons> so, in summary, current roles are fine and seem well documented. No other feedback here?
<knome> AlbertoSN, yep!
<balloons> we won't add a new mentorship role, but will encourage it to happen amongst the team informally
<balloons> javier liked the idea of doing videos -- anything specific you'd like to see?
<shadeslayer> I can't hear anyone :P
<dobey-uds> ah
<shadeslayer> except Nicholas
<dobey-uds> everyone use AlbertoSN's mic to speak
<knome> balloons, i think it would be a good idea to ask around a bit who might be willing to help with mentoring
<AlbertoSN> So?
<AlbertoSN> Do you hear me?
<knome> ok, hangout is off
<ali1234> ugh... hangout is totally gone now
<DanChapman> balloons, I missed some at the start but i like the sound of javier's idea of video's.
<AlbertoSN> So what shall be done?
<amjjawad> can anyone hear me?
<chilicuil> yeah, more step by step tutorials for everything with subtitles
<AlbertoSN> Nou
<high_fiver> balloons: you sounded like GLaDOS
<Moshad> did you just broke the mic?
<dobey-uds> nah, glados is intelligible
<shadeslayer> balloons: video lagging
<DanChapman> javier == chilicuil ?? (can't remember :-\ )
<balloons> DanChapman, yes
<Moshad> oh bad
<knome> there is no hangout
<balloons> ok, so let's cover the remaining ideas
<DanChapman> balloons, thanks
<chilicuil> I personally will like to see more autopilot, autopkg ones, however it would be good to have more about basically any qa related topic
<elopio> dobey-uds: oh, sorry.
<balloons> chilicuil, et la, is intro to each role video useful?
<elopio> now it's off air, so I can't send my greetings to you.
<balloons> yes sorry about the hangout :-)
<knome> i'd prefer simple/low-level ones over more complex subjects on the videos
<chilicuil> balloons: I don't think so, the wiki descriptions seems enough for me, however we could clasify videos and resources depending of the audience target, this for testers, those for writers, those for developers
<dobey-uds> elopio: no, it's jut that only balloons was talking and i wanted other people to talk to see if the problem was google, or balloons :)
<balloons> chilicuil, knome noted, thank you
<AlbertoSN> Go http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21981/community-1311-quality-defining-workflows/ again and see a surprise
<balloons> anyone else any comments on videos?
<knome> slow pace!
<AlbertoSN> The video was uploaded, incompleted
<amjjawad> balloons: how about one last try?
<knome> don't rush with it; if you're taking the time to do a video, make sure it's slow enough so everybody can follow it
<amjjawad> you reboot everything and let's try one last time?
<balloons> knome, noted :-)
<knome> (and subtitles in the video help)
<balloons> knome, subtitles in english?
<knome> i could possibly help with some editing if we want some fancy intro sections (or do we have such already)
<knome> yep, subtitles in english
<DanChapman> what areas are we wanting to do videos on?
<amjjawad> DanChapman: basic tasks
<Moshad> like?
<amjjawad> to attract newcomers
<knome> is there videos for the most basic iso/package testing?
<knome> "how to report a bug"
<amjjawad> knome: yes
<knome> "how to report a test"
<knome> "how to pick a test you want to run"
<knome> "how to help debug/triage bugs"
<amjjawad> the very basic tasks
<DanChapman> knome, ack thanks
<chilicuil> I'd also like to see more conection between the ubuntu qa community and the ubuntu +1 forums, I think we could grab fast some more collaborators if we could post specifically there more often
<balloons> the idea was to make sure everything in the expanded roles section has a video
<amjjawad> so that anyone with no previous experience can watch and learn :)
<balloons> so knome specifically, not everything you mentioned exists atm
<knome> i don't think too many developers need videos
<balloons> knome, noted.. short, simple, basic stuff
<Moshad> agree
<balloons> I noted you offered to help :-)
<knome> something like "how to build testing tools for development" could work
<knome> but not complex issues like stuff on autopilot
<knome> text-based documentation is much more accessible on such things
<balloons> ok, I also wanted to go over exploratory testing a bit
<balloons> one of the goals this cycle is to have the community take ownership over what and how we test. We're encouraging everyone to do exploratory testing all the time.. is this clear to everyone?
<ali1234> no
<balloons> so we need to clear that up then.. how can we communicate and clarify this?
<ali1234> what exactly do you mean by "the community"?
<balloons> bye AlbertoSN.. sorry for the troubles :-)
<AlbertoSN> Bye bya
<high_fiver> sound is goof
<high_fiver> *good
<balloons> ali1234, I mean the qa community team
<balloons> everyone here and everyone who's not here but helps test :-)
<knome> balloons, i would imagine people do exploratory testing already, but i'm not sure if people report bugs/issues as we want
<balloons> knome, I agree. I would like to see people own bugs better and report them
<balloons> to some extent I hope invoving the bugsquad helps with this
<knome> at least we have several people in a cycle send emails to our -devel mailing list telling they "tested xubuntu" and had played around with it; but can't see them having sent error or bug reports
<hggdh> there is a lot of ad hoc testing by people-at-large, but we do not currently have an easy way for the casual tester to report results
<ali1234> as a person who reports bugs as and when i find them during normal use, i find that i am being asked to do it a totally different way every 6 months and it is becoming a burden
<ali1234> for example 2 years ago it was enough to do an apport bug. now i'm being asked "oh, also do an iso test" or "oh, also write a test case"
<balloons> ali1234, I'd like it to be enough to report a bug. I want to informalize how you find it
<DanChapman> balloons, it is clear to me. But what about aswell as just saying 'all the time do a weekly call for testing' on the mailing list with an area to 'explore' for that week which will break some newcomers into what areas they should be exploring and an get an idea of how to get involved?
<balloons> DanChapman, it's an idea.. I assume over the course of a week people can accomplish something
<balloons> it was my intent when we did cadence testing
<balloons> we're at the end of the session. I think I'd like to talk about this again, so let's plan to do it. And continue the conversation
<knome> i think the area which needs clarifying is the priority an proportion of exploratory/general testing
<balloons> i'll add it to another session or we'll talk on the list
<balloons> knome, I agree.. I want to see this be clarified, easy to understand, and doable
<knome> eg. should one rather get a test done one or twice than do some exploratory testing
<balloons> Well I'd like to see the general tests run, then exploratory testing
<ali1234> exploratory testing happens all the time whenever anyone is doing anything
<balloons> so run the outlined tests at least once :-) but then go wild
<ali1234> half the bugs i find, i find them while investigating (or even attempting to report) another bug
<knome> and possibly write down some examples what exploratory testing can be and specify the goals (eg. report bugs that you wouldn't find with the regular testing)
<knome> balloons, for me, that clarifies it a lot
<balloons> all good stuff.. I hate to cut this off. We'll chat again on this soon
 * balloons copies out the conversation bits
<DanChapman> balloons, another session sounds good
<balloons> thanks everyone!
<knome> balloons, one last thing is that i think package testing helps a bit with exploratory testing
<knome> they are kind of directed to the same direction, fulfilling the same need
<knome> pleia2, o/
<balloons> brb to start the docs sessoin
<high_fiver> yep
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Ubuntu Documentation Team Roundtable | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21980/community-1311-docteam-roundtable/
<knome> hey jjfrv8 :)
<jjfrv8> hi, knome
<YoBoY> hi
<pmatulis> is there supposed to be video?
<pleia2> starts at :05 :)
<TheLordOfTime> pmatulis: two minutes out ;)
<pmatulis> gah
<knome> lets hope so... there were quite some problems with the hangouts during the last session
<pmatulis> lemme send microwaves through my cafÃ©
 * knome pokes balloons 
<pleia2> oh good, it's not just me :)
<pleia2> we're already 5 minutes in :(
<balloons> sry'
<knome> fortunately it's the lunch break after this session so we're not that tight on time
<pmatulis> so no vid
<pleia2> I have to get to work :\
<knome> not yet at least
<knome> pleia2, have fun. i'll volunteer you for all the things nobody else wants to do as we agreed
<pleia2> haha
<pleia2> nah, I'm around for this session
<knome> bah ;)
<pleia2> just not hours into lunch ;)
<knome> lol
 * knome prods balloons 
<pleia2> maybe we just start this here in IRC?
<knome> fair
<YoBoY> +1
<dsmythies> Yes, lets start
<godbyk> pleia2: Sounds good to me.
<hannie> +1
<pleia2> ok, topic 1: How we can improve the "getting started contributing" process
<knome> know which tasks need to be done.
<balloons> sorry, can everyone see the session?
<balloons> is anyone going to join?
<pleia2> we made improvements this cycle on at least getting some of our desktop contributor docs, so that's good
<knome> balloons, says "stand by"
<pleia2> balloons: we gave up :)
<bregma> maybe someone has to join the session?
<knome> maybe balloons should share the link where people can try to join
<pmatulis> why is there no vid?
<bregma> the link is above the video window
<balloons> hello?
<balloons> I feel like no one is hearing my irc pings :-)
<knome> balloons, pong
<pleia2> bregma: I don't see a join link
<knome> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjd70fft3117g2ln06viv8s?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons_uds> join up: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjd70fft3117g2ln06viv8s?authuser=0&hl=en
<hannie> I see Please stand by. Starting soon....
<bregma> "Join the Hangout on Air" right above the video box ... you probably need to be logged in
<TheLordOfTime> i think you do
<balloons> join the hangout and we'll start
<TheLordOfTime> the page doesn't show the link unless you've logged in apparently
<pleia2> ugh
 * TheLordOfTime tested on chrome (logged in) and firefox (not logged in)
<pmatulis> you need to join to see the video?  wtf?
<knome> pmatulis, to see the "join the hangout" link.
<balloons> k should be live
<TheLordOfTime> yep
<TheLordOfTime> just refresh the page if you still see "standby starting soon"
 * gQuigs it's live for me
<knome> it's live now
<knome> pleia2, say something
<pleia2> there
<balloons> ok, I can't run the session very well as it's quite noisy here
<pmatulis> the main screen has a blue avatar thingy
<pleia2> I said I'd help with the session, specifically not run it :P
<balloons> if someone else can walk through the agenda, we should be ready to roll
<knome> pleia2, just to test the voice works...
<Parbo> voice works
<knome> somebody pick up running the session
<pleia2> :)
<knome> thanks godbyk!
<knome> yeah, *we* should know what needs done first
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<pmatulis> arghh, crosstalk
<Parbo> I hear every sentence twice.
<dsmythies> I cann't seem to get onto the hangout. will continue...
<Parbo> a lot of echo, noise
<pleia2> Parbo: do you have the window open twice?
<Parbo> yes :(
<Parbo> ok now
<knome> we should look if we can merge some of the content across the different platforms
<pmatulis> wow
<pmatulis> this is not workable from my side
<pmatulis> anyone else hearing everything twice?
<godbyk> pmatulis: Pause the YouTube video on the summit.ubuntu.com page.
<pmatulis> godbyk: ha ha, gotcha
<knome> yeah, but there are also help.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community
<knome> is help.ubuntu.com what's essentially installed/shipped in ubuntu?
<knome> oh, the pad answers that.
<pleia2> pad++
<knome> so what's the primary documentation new contributors should start working with?
<knome> "nice long" ?
<knome> :P
<Parbo> I think it very inconvenient to work using bug reports
<knome> but the wiki is scarce and outdated.
<knome> peterm-ubuntu, exactly!
<knome> +1 for housekeeping
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<knome> tagging is okay, but the most important thing would be to have a good structure that's at all times visible on the wiki/pages
<knome> and take care of linking orphans or deleting them.
<knome> the community wiki could do with a similar navigation than xubuntu has in the main wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/
<workingwriter> Can you make the wiki a sandbox for new system doc content?
<knome> yep, either it's not documentation or it should be maintained by the doc team
<knome> the community wiki says: This is a reference for Ubuntu-related "Howtos, Tips, Tricks, and Hacks."
<workingwriter> "community help wiki" I like that!
<pleia2> that's what it's called now :)
<NikTh> But it has the note : "Note that this is not the official documentation. "
<knome> nonetheless i think we need to clean it up and try to make it even a bit structured
<NikTh> Maybe we can make it bold or a header or something.
<workingwriter> if something hasn't been updated in years (heck, pre-Unity), label it 'expired'?
<knome> if something is expired, delete it
<pmatulis> delete.old.wiki.pages++
<pmatulis> OR
<Parbo> Ever heard of this team https://launchpad.net/~ubforums2ubwiki
<dsmythies> yes, people need to use it and submit merge proposals
<pmatulis> an update that the page *will be deleted* soon
<dsmythies> We need to fix some GNOME issues
<dsmythies> ... with the tools
<dsmythies> see my notes in the blueprint page. Re developers don't help
<pleia2> have a link to the blueprint handy? if I open the summit page again it causes youtube chaos
<workingwriter> Pleia2: See Links at bottom of screen
<knome> pleia2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1311-docteam-roundtable
<pleia2> knome: thanks
<workingwriter> Newbie Q: Can blueprints that are scheduled for a release be shared with DocTeam?
<balloons> workingwriter, what do you mean?
<workingwriter> So, if a particular feature is going to be included in a release (as opposed to something to be fixed down the line), can Docs be notified?
<dsmythies> I'm sorry that I never figured out how to join the hangout... I tried the whole hour
<TheLordOfTime> dsmythies: login to the summit page first.  then the link will show up for joining the specific hangout
<dsmythies> I did
<pleia2> dsmythies: anything else to add?
<pleia2> (sorry you couldn't join :\)
<balloons> workingwriter, yes that is what we hope to fix, but it's not so simple
<dsmythies> My notes are all on the blueprint page, most of which we didn't get to
<balloons> the devs aren't going to notify you directly :-)
<teolemon> any possibilities to turn desktop ans
<teolemon> server guide into latex guide
<teolemon> s
<workingwriter> Start planning for Touch now!
<Parbo> Will this log be sent to the list?
<teolemon> printed like ubuntu manual ?
<pleia2> teolemon: we use mallard because that's what upstream gnome uses, I don't see us converting it all to latex
<pleia2> might be able to produce PDFs from mallard
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
<balloons> pleia2, everyone, sorry for the troubles at the start. Thanks for the session ;-)
<teolemon> pleia2 : thanks, that'd be a great thing.
<pleia2> dsmythies: I'll try to go through the blueprint and make sure your items are on the agenda for the next IRC meeting
<dsmythies> Thanks
<pleia2> we pretty much just did the basic agenda noted at the top of the blueprint
<pleia2> time for breakfast! :)
<dsmythies> me too
<godbyk> time for brunch here. :)
 * NikTh is away: I'll be back.. later. 
<balloons> hangout url is up for the startup disk creator session
<balloons> thibaut`, howdy
<balloons> thibaut`, the notes should be embedded on the page
<balloons> do you see them?
<balloons_uds> the hangout url is https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons_uds> feel free to join
<balloons> thibaut`, ahh, you need to be a part of the etherpad team. we'll fix you right now
<balloons_uds> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
<balloons> thibaut`, ok I added you as a member
<balloons> reload and try again
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Startup Disk Creator redesign & renaming proposal | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21985/community-1311-ubuntu-usb-startup-creator/
<cgoldberg> la_juyis, i can't login to summit.ubuntu.com.  says my username is already in use.  any ideas?
<balloons_uds> thibaut`:I added https://launchpad.net/~k1au3-is-37 as a member of the team
<balloons_uds> finally signing out and signing back in should work
<balloons_uds> *fully signing out
<la_juyis> cgoldberg, o.O
<la_juyis> cgoldberg, are you using your SSO info?
<thibaut`> I use the OpenID
<cgoldberg> la_juyis, yea
<gQuigs> is the hangout link available?
<balloons> feel free to join the hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> gQuigs, ^^
<la_juyis> cgoldberg, no idea. when does it say so?
<cgoldberg> la_juyis, after I click Login and enter credentials.. from agenda page
<la_juyis> cgoldberg, if you check in login.ubuntu.com, do you see summit as one of the sites you're logged in?
<balloons> feel free to join the hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> we'll start in a min
<cgoldberg> la_juyis, yes.. says i 'm authenticated
<la_juyis> cgoldberg, maybe reload summit?
<cgoldberg> la_juyis, i tried.  it's ok.. jopining hangouts works
<xnox> ..
<xnox> if CD and USB disk are plugged into computer, it's a single click experience.
<xnox> ..
<xnox> last time usb-creator session was held, there are known bugs to fix, yet there were no developers willing to work on usb-creator.
<smb> though i386 experience is a one clock to crash one quite often
<xnox> smb: sure, the solution to that was (a) fix bugs in udisks (b) use direct "dd" method, instead of current partition and move files around.
<jderose> FYI, this is something that System76 is interested in. The one thing that I'd add to the list of UX goal is that in should verify the signatures of the ISOs.
<xnox> smb: noone wanted to implement that at the time =) nor had time.
<smb> xnox, Sounds very familiar ;-P
<xnox> jderose: that would be nice.
<balloons> xnox, I use the dd approach :-)
<jderose> we want the standard  ISO to be the restore procedure, so making this easier and more secure is very good
<xnox> smb: not sure where this specifiction was proposed. but e.g. nobody approached ubuntu-installer@ mailing list about working on usb-creator....
<balloons> jderose, so you want sha1 or mf5sum verify?
<xnox> jderose: have you seen lp:dell-recovery project? which can restore/reinstall from usb or recovery partitions.
<xnox> jderose: a few OEMs use that.
<smb> xnox, Could not say, the first time I saw this was it appearing as a session here
<jderose> balloons: verify SHA256SUMS.gpg, SHA256SUMS
<jderose> xnox: no, i haven't... very interesting, thanks!
<cprofitt> my one concern is that the tool be able to make startup disks from non-Ubuntu iso
<jderose> cprofitt: but aren't  there already many tools out there for arbitrary ISOs?
<xnox> cprofitt: at the moment it is indeed very *buntu live-cd specific. if one implements a method which uses "dd" to wipe _all_ data off the usb-disk, then any ISO from any distribution would work.
<xnox> (as well as UEFI & SB support)
<cprofitt> xnox: why would the disk need to be wiped differently to burn an Ubuntu iso vs. a Fedora iso?
<amjjawad> balloons: is it fine now? :D
<xnox> cprofitt: if one is using "dd" to blast any iso on the disk, then any existing data/partitions will no longer be accessible.
<amjjawad> so, shall I get ready for the last session or better too sleep? hehe balloons
<balloons> amjjawad, what do you mean?
<amjjawad> the technical issue?!
<amjjawad> you had
<balloons> amjjawad, yes
<xnox> cprofitt: at the moment the core feature of usb-creator is that it's trying to be non-destructive and can use existing partitions, or repartition and keep existing partitions.
<amjjawad> coz I see everything is okay :D
<amjjawad> good, then see you in 45mins ;)
<xnox> cprofitt: unfortunetely that also makes it unstable =)
<cprofitt> xnox in my particular case I was trying to take a vmware iso and burn it to a USB stick, but start disk creator would not even recognize the iso file
<cprofitt> it would be good to either let user know the .iso is not supported or make it work with other iso files
<xnox> cprofitt: correct. but you can do it with "dd" e.g. "dd if=fo.iso of=/dev/sdb" would work.
<xnox> cprofitt: hence why it is widely agreed, if usb-creator did simply UI around executing "dd" it would make usb-crator ISO agnostic.
<amjjawad> has anyone seen this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1958073
<amjjawad> perhaps it will help the topic :)
<cprofitt> xnox: I did end up doing it with dd, but it would have been nice to have the start up disk program tell me that it would not recognize non-Ubuntu isos
<jderose> re backend library: there isn't much needed, and this is something i've been experimenting with. i think the dd-like approach is the best approach, and it's very easy to do this is a way that gives a good user experience (aka, a progress bar that reflects the true projects)
<xnox> cprofitt: i see.
<balloons> jderose, xnox care to describe the dd approach more?
<xnox> balloons: so at the moment usb-creator: creates or re-uses existing partition on the usb-stick, installs a boot loader into mbr, and puts the files off the iso on the usb-stick such that at boot they are found.
<xnox> balloons: with "dd", one has graphical UI about executing "dd if=my.iso of=/dev/sdb" which blasts bit-to-bit identical .iso image to the usb stick.
<xnox> balloons: it's more realiable and gives you UEFI & SecureBoot support and supports any .iso out there (debian, fedora, etc)
<jderose> (er, i'm not suggesting to wrap dd because you can't deliver a progress bar this way. but i'm saying to do something dd-like)
<xnox> jderose: correct =)
<xnox> jderose: one can send signals to dd to get progress information FYI, see man page.
<balloons> jderose, xnox.. ahh so merely you think it would be useful to support any iso, but be geared towards ubuntu?
<xnox> balloons: the downside to "dd" method is that one no-longer can use usb-disk for anything else e.g.: no persistance support, no ability to keep existing files, nor use the rest of the available space at all.
<balloons> xnox, yes indeed it is a downside
<xnox> (e.g. a 32GB usb-stick, becomes a 900MB stick which has Read-only ubuntu iso only)
<xnox> jderose: see $ man dd
<balloons> xnox, et la, would we rather have it stupidly simple and rock solid or ?
<balloons> xnox, well, heh, yea I suppose that ends up problematic
<jsjgruber-uds> The current .iso's have the have CD-device-dependent stuff on it to change the ongoing process. Whether to launch the CD to test Ubuntu, or to do an install for example.
<jsjgruber-uds> There are different versions of syslinux.
<or211> I am using unetbootin with a slightly modified ubuntu 12.04 iso file and it creates a bootable stick with persistent storage
<xnox> jsjgruber-uds: i'm sorry, i don't understand what you said at all.
<jderose> balloons: yes, i think the biggest UX holes are downloading the ISO, verifying the ISO, finding where you saved the file, etc. i'd like a one stop, one screen tool. especially for the System76 restore procedure :)
<xnox> or211: "persistance" is easy create partition or a file, and pass a boot option to that partition/file.
<jsjgruber-uds> xnox : just booting a .iso that is copied to a usb stick won't work by itself.
<xnox> or211: it's the same as with usb-creator.
<chiluk> has anyone here actually attempted to fix usb-creator?
<jderose> this was one of my little python3 prototypes for doing a synchronous dd-like write - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jderose/+junk/scripts/view/head:/usb-create.py
<xnox> jsjgruber-uds: right, if one copies it as a file => inedeed it doesn't work. But if one uses "dd" and replace the whole block device (/dev/sdb, not /dev/sdb1). Then the usb-stick will boot in BIOS, UEFI, and SecureBoot valires.
<or211> Yes but unetbootin will not generate a stick with persistent storage with the standard ubuntu 12.04 iso
<xnox> jsjgruber-uds: not that dd is block level copy, not file-level copy. and then the bootloader as provided by the iso will be used.
<xnox> or211: ah, that's bad. a regression compared with usb-creator.
 * xnox doesn't know much how unetbootin works under the hood.
<or211> I modified the initrd to create the persistence file at first boot
<xnox> =/
<xnox> sounds scary.
<or211> ;)
<or211> you do not have to create a partition.. you can create a file if the file system is read write...
<or211> my persistence file is also encrypted
<xnox> usb-creator uses the file approach by default.
<popey> pad is back
<xnox> not encrypted however, which is also an often requested feature.
<or211> Encrypted penitence file are often required in enterprise environments
<or211> unetbootin are also available on Mac
<chiluk> i have another solution... copy iso directly to fat32 usb stick.. install grub2, and use loopback to boot the iso directly
<chiluk> that's what I do personally, and manually
<xnox> making usb-creator cross-platform would be cool. At the moment we don't have any ubuntu branded app to do that. in the past it was suggested to extend wubi to support that.
<xnox> chiluk: sure, does that work with UEFI/SecureBoot?
<chiluk> it should work... i think.
<chiluk> you'd just have to install grub-efi, and loopback boot the secure kernel
<xnox> chiluk: i'd be happy with loopback if we could extract / reuse the signed shim from the iso and stick in the right path on the partion.
<xnox> chiluk: well the first loader must be signed =)
<chiluk> xnox, you know more than me about that.
<chiluk> I'd defer to your experience
<xnox> chiluk: last time I couldn't manage to use grub2 loopback, do you have any tutorials / examples / stored notes how to use it?
<chiluk> xnox the grub you install to the usb key could be signed
<smb> xnox, Maybe that still works https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Dev/MultipleISOBootUSBKey
<chiluk> xnox this looks similar to what I do https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/ISOBoot/Examples
<chiluk> although I haven't set it up to work with my uefi machines yet.. so I don't knwo.
<xnox> smb: chiluk: excellent! i'll see if that works for BIOS, and that will be more reliable than current methods.
<xnox> smb: chiluk: and if that is already grub2 it should be fairly compatible with grub-efi / SecureBoot.
<smb> xnox, It says grub.cfg in the instructuions so it should be grub2
<xnox> =)
<jsjgruber-uds> Before release I think it's very important to test on many computers. There seem to be many problems on askubuntu with people trying to use disk creator that seem to depend on their hardware or configuration...and it's hard to help them remotely.
<xnox> jsjgruber-uds: true dat, the problem however is with "ubuntu-1" creating "ubuntu+1" images. thus a fixed ubiquity for trusty, will for the first time be properly used by trusty users to create e.g. "trusty+1,+2 etc" images =/
<xnox> s/ubiquity/usb-creator/
<Azendale> I haven't been able to be present for all of this session. But the mockup does not have a browse option, which seems like it should have if it's an app someone will use just once.
<balloons> Azendale, what do you mean browse?
<balloons> plan is to show just ubuntu images, but allow any to be loaded
<Azendale> for an ISO on the hard drive that is not where the application searches by default
<balloons> that would be allowed
<Azendale> balloons: would that require going into the preferences?
<balloons> Azendale, everything is a mockup for now
<Azendale> balloons: ok
<balloons> but no
<balloons> ;-)
<nuclearbob-mobil> I'm interested in maybe some of the Dev work
<cprofitt> gotta run to a meeting folks... good session thanks
<nuclearbob-mobil> Whichever involves the most python3
<nuclearbob-mobil> Yeah, I'll take a look
<jderose> er, Thibaut Brandscheid: what IRC nick are you? :)
<Azendale> If anyone is trying to make something that uses Zsync as a library, look at https://code.launchpad.net/~azendale/+junk/zsync-gtk
<Azendale> It's not finished, but it's a start at librarifying zsync (so in my case I could make a gui)
<balloons> xnox, chiluk if you wouldn't mind adding a note about your approach with grub2 that would be great
<jderose> Azendale: neat, i'll check it out
<balloons> feel free to grab an action to just report back to the blueprint your findings if you don't mind
<balloons> xnox, chiluk ^^ TYTY
<balloons> Azendale, interesting..
<amjjawad> balloons: before we go on air for the last session today, let's test me and you the quality of voice, please :)
<balloons> hangout details for qa && bugsquad are up
<knome> yay
<TheLordOfTime> balloons: link please
<xnox> balloons: i think i'll just implement grub2 in usb-creator upstream, as i am upstream. I wasn't watching the video of this session as I had a conflict.
<TheLordOfTime> (system isn't pointing me to the Hangout link)
<balloons> amjjawad, I've no choice on my current setup.. you get what you get
<balloons> for better or worse :-)
<amjjawad> balloons: :(
<amjjawad> okay, let's see - link please balloons :)
<balloons_uds> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons_uds> hangout link ^^
<xnox> balloons: it's kind of sad that nobody from existing usb-creator / installer team was asked to be here. or that none of these plans where discussed with the right people ahead of time.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Merging bugsquad and the community QA team | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21987/community-1311-quality-bugsquad/
<TheLordOfTime> not sure if my audio is working... :/
<elfy> TheLordOfTime: we'll soon see ;)
<elfy> or hear
<elfy> or not :p
<TheLordOfTime> apparently it works for me :)
<balloons_uds> anyone who wants to join the hangout, please do so: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> xnox, I tried to broadcast to everyone. it seemed like dustin was going to come
<balloons> but he didn't?
<balloons> k, starting time
<knome> yes please
<xnox> balloons: dustin?! the people who worked on usb creator are Ev, Colin Watson and I.....
<balloons> xnox, whoops
<balloons> xnox, :-( My apologies for grabbing the wrong people.
<xnox> balloons: =) well, next time "core" packages come into community track ask around "core" track what to do with them? =)
<balloons_uds> bdmurray: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons_uds> or anyone else wanting in the hangout, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
<knome> elfy, ^
<knome> +1 for keeping those parts separated
<j_f-f> but communication needs to be improved
<knome> there are basically always too little testers; we did get nice results last time though and were able to pump up the tests greatly
<elfy> indeed
<AlbertoSN> Link?
<knome> i think these concerns are partly unrelated to merging the teams
<TheLordOfTime> [13/11/19 14:14:27] <balloons_uds> or anyone else wanting in the hangout, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
<AlbertoSN> ;)
<knome> i suppose both of the teams struggle with similar problems
<amjjawad> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnome-qa
<knome> but ultimately, there is overlap on the tasks for both teams, so it definitely makes sense to merge
<knome> we have 118 members in ~xubuntu-testers, but many of those think testing is something different than the developers do.
<chilicuil> the qa team in my opinion requires the experience of bug control, we're not going anywhere if we're not at least triaging the bugs we find
<knome> it's possible some of them are just badge collectors
<balloons> knome, badge collectors, heh?
<knome> balloons, yeah, just collecting those team badges in LP
<elfy> make it moderated? I'd rather know I definitely had 15 than might have 100 :)
<Letozaf_> maybe involving Local Coomunity Teams to spread the word for the need of testers would be a good idea, they could reach out to people we cannot reach using usual means
<balloons> moderation is a possibiity
<knome> elfy, you're the administrator... :)
<knome> +1 for chilicuil's comment
<elfy> :)
<knome> both reporting a test and being able to triage the bugs in the report look like an integral part of QA
<knome> in the beginning, i assume the teams will keep working as they are working now
<elfy> many people are just going to wander off if they look at the triaging wiki ;)
<balloons> elfy, wiki too crazy?
<knome> balloons, rather the triaging instructions ;)
<elfy> balloons: when I looked it was a 'riiiight, ok then' moment ;)
<ali1234> link?
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
<knome> i think it depends on the person if they prefer wiki or video
<elfy> of course
<knome> we could cover these questions on the videos we talked before
<j_f-f> +100 amjjawad
<knome> yep, low-hanging fruit ++
<knome> if you want to put it other way, think like the tasks the ubuntu bugsquad are doing are tasks for yet another role or two
<balloons> any other concerns for merging?
<amjjawad> balloons: what was your Q? sorry, couldn't hear it
<elfy> balloons: I'm in agreement with merging the team ;)
<knome> +1 for merging.
<Letozaf_> I think testing and taking care of bugs is closely related so +1 to merging
<amjjawad> I think having one mailing list is logical to me
<elfy> bdmurray: totally agree with that
<knome> does the bugsquad mailing list have any automated mails?
<elfy> we agreed on something amjjawad :D
<amjjawad> elfy: oh yes indeed ;)
<knome> my only concern is if -bugsquad is too high traffic
<amjjawad> knome: no it is not
<chilicuil> I'd like to see automated msgs from the qa ubuntu new report testers to #ubuntu-bugs to help bring them attention, not sure if we should mix the channels
<bdmurray> no
<amjjawad> I am subscribed to it and there is no much traffic
<knome> in that case +1 for merging those as well.
<amjjawad> knome: good :D
<knome> and let's not rename pages either.
<amjjawad> knome: +1
<elfy> agreed
<amjjawad> elfy: we agreed again ;)
<elfy> :)
<amjjawad> so what other things we need to discuss beside mailing list and wiki?
<knome> the weekly/monthly meetings we're having will come handy
<amjjawad> I guess it is not a high priority to setup a LP area for now. I think it is better to do that as a final step
<amjjawad> but yes, at the end, both should be on the same team on LP
<amjjawad> IMHO :)
<amjjawad> balloons: +1 :)
<knome> ultimately we only need separate LP teams if a certain team needs specific access rights in LP.
<amjjawad> knome: +1
<elfy> plnety of time for LP
<knome> maybe people on -quality should join the bugsquad channel to see what they think and reassess after a week or so
<knome> balloons, ^
<amjjawad> knome: I guess most are there already
<knome> i'm not.
<amjjawad> knome: then join ;)
<AlbertoSN> Teams are fusioning...
<knome> balloons, remember to notice the CC.
<knome> :)
<AlbertoSN> â¿
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
<AlbertoSN> Good nite
<amjjawad> good night AlbertoSN
<j_f-f> thanks @all
<balloons> ty everyone!
<elfy> cheers balloons
<knome> ta
<topta> hi all
#ubuntu-uds-community-1 2013-11-20
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Quality community-run testing events | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22064/community-1311-quality-calls-for-testing/
<amjjawad> balloons: Hi
<amjjawad> how is everything today? :D
<amjjawad> balloons:
<amjjawad> link please
<balloons> howdy everyone
<balloons> for anyone wanting to join, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpi6r2pmsu1pcm346p912ph8?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> amjjawad, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpi6r2pmsu1pcm346p912ph8?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpi6r2pmsu1pcm346p912ph8?authuser=0&hl=en
<tdr112> hello
<balloons> hello tdr112
<balloons> hey DanChapman, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpi6r2pmsu1pcm346p912ph8?authuser=0&hl=en if you'd like to hop on :-)
<DanChapman> balloons, i can only IRC for this session :-(
<balloons> DanChapman, ahh, no worries
<tdr112> We have all this talk about getting testers, are we going to chat about community run testing events ?
<balloons> tdr112, yes.. I'll steer amjjawad back towards our topic :-)
<DanChapman> heh
<tdr112> In our loco we find "testing" is a great entry level to help out at a bug jam
<tdr112> How can we much that even better to get people into it
<ali1234> in xubuntu we knew things were broken well before release: it never got fixed because we lacked people who knew how to package the fixes, and because the fixes weren't packaged, they couldn't be tested, because testing is focused on packages and isos
<balloons> tdr112, what do you mean?
<balloons> ali1234, yes we can only test work that gets don
<balloons> *done
<tdr112> so for the last bug jam , we had a lot of non tech people come along to it and the best thing we found for them to do was to try and install ubuntu and do some testing , if there was some clear check list to give them, people might get more out of it
<ali1234> well, i need people testing branches from lp and other upstreams, and i need feedback on a fast turnaround
<DanChapman> tdr112 does the qa tracker testcases not provide enough info for new people to start working through?
<tdr112> DanChapman: it might,
<balloons> tdr112, does this work for you? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Testing
<DanChapman> tdr112 for example http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/series/42/testsuites provides various scenarios for iso testing and the testcases are well broken down into nice step-by-step
<DanChapman> balloons, I didn't know about that wiki page :-)
<amjjawad> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/
<balloons> DanChapman, :-) Yes we tried to make it easy
<amjjawad> balloons: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/
<DanChapman> balloons, how about an ical for folks to import?
 * DanChapman reallllly likes that page
 * balloons too
<DanChapman> we all should have one
<balloons> DanChapman, yes the pluses of a real calendar means we can have stuff like ical
<chilicuil> thanks for the session =)
<balloons> ty chilicuil :-)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Ubuntu Women Trusty Goals | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22058/community-1311-ubuntu-women/
<dholbach> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpiu84d3clhi4f8jjekr27qg?authuser=0 for whoever wants to join in
<pleia2> thanks dholbach
<pleia2> anyone else who can hop on, please do :)
<pleia2> sgclark? belkinsa?
<belkinsa> Yes
<sgclark> yeah
<belkinsa> I don't do Hangouts, sorry.
<pleia2> we're going to start broadcasting
<dholbach> hello hello, we still have a lot of room in the hangout :)
<sgclark> new install sorry, installing plugin
<cprofitt> I will do my best to participate, but today is busy here at work
<knome> dholbach, good for you, not a sardine bin then ;)
<dholbach> sgclark, great
<dholbach> if you want, you can just talk and turn off your video - there were just a bunch of folks who did that in a session in core-2 earlier :)
<pleia2> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-community-1311-ubuntu-women
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/RoadMap-T
<knome> nah, i don't do G+
<yolanda> i'm listening, i'm curious about that
<dholbach> it'd be great to have a bit more participation in the hangout :)
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/GetInvolved
<pleia2> Deindre: can join the hangout here https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpiu84d3clhi4f8jjekr27qg?authuser=0
<cprofitt> I am particularly interested in seeing 'advice' or 'blue prints' being created for loco teams that would address engaging young women and technology
<belkinsa> Yeah.  Here is the link to the project: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/GIWPI
<cprofitt> ie., encouraging 11-18 year old girls to use technology / programming / etc
<pleia2> cprofitt: can you add a bullet point to the etherpad?
<sgclark> plugin installs fine but chrome refuses to see it, sorry I tried
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/RoadMap-GIWPI
<belkinsa> Do some sort of "Get Involved" day, like the Career Days, was one of my ideas and whoever thought of that to.
<pleia2> sgclark: doh! next time
<cprofitt> in a very general sense I think helping young women foster their interest will help in the long run
<belkinsa> Yes, write that matrix is what we need to do.
<pleia2> belkinsa: anything else to add on this topic?
<belkinsa> No, just the two- The day and the martix.
<pleia2> cprofitt: we're going to go through the agenda items we had in our blueprint first (sorry for knocking your item to the bottom)
<pleia2> belkinsa: ok cool
<cprofitt> I added it pleia2 -- this would seem to fit with some of the other items -- like getting involved, best practices, but with a target of a specific age group
<cprofitt> no problem pleia2
<cprofitt> I think it fits under several of the existing items, but there likely has to be a different approach for that age group vs. women who are already in university or graduated
<belkinsa> I could.
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/BestPractices
<belkinsa> I would*
<cprofitt> Actually -- I am looking for ideas from your team
<cprofitt> it is something I want to do, but I am unsure of how to go about it
<cprofitt> I think it requires a different approach, but not sure of the best way to go about it
<cprofitt> my ideas would be to engage the teachers directly, but are there other ways
<AlanBell> http://codeclub.org.uk has good materials for young people
<dholbach> AlanBell, nice
<dholbach> philballew could be a contact for the ubuntu youth team
<cprofitt> I think it might be something that requires a different approach at that age group
<pleia2> yeah
<cprofitt> partially to make parents feel comfortable
<cprofitt> I have had young men show up to Lug meetings, etc... but not young women
<cprofitt> I am not sure if there is some way of making parents comfortable
<belkinsa> It's mostly a Google drive doc, can you add that link also? Thanks.
<dholbach> https://docs.google.com/document/d/13HbySyDWX5UheFWy6RyNpzasL7CaMhE9w9b_pGKA61M/edit
<belkinsa> Er, sorryfor that edit.  I think my computer is having issues.
<cprofitt> Other than getting a job... it may help to also show how the skills could translate to being more ready for college / university
<cprofitt> https://www.gradfly.co/
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Profiles
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/CareerDays
<cprofitt> just my comment about making it more than career
<cprofitt> add the ability for it to assist students getting in to college or university
<cprofitt> the gradfly site as an example
<belkinsa> Can some put those three last lines under the gradfly link that I posted on the pad?  Can't seem to do that.  Thanks.
<cprofitt> perhaps it is something for us to think about
<dholbach> I just had a look at the ubuntu-women.org site and wondered if the stories could be a bit more prominent? maybe a few paragraphs of a few members with pictures (just an idea off the top off my hat) - it might also make it a bit more inviting
<belkinsa> Never mind, added it
<cprofitt> I think attracting women at this point is critical to improving women in technology
<sgclark> old gal here
<belkinsa> Dholbach, I agree.  Maybe that can be an action item for me to look into that?
<cprofitt> why as women, did you not get involved in technology when you were younger?
<cprofitt> can we do anything to address that issue?
<dholbach> belkinsa, sure, that'd be awesome - how about      [belkinsa] make (at least some) stories of ubuntu women more prominent on the site     ?
<pleia2> dholbach: yeah, so far we only posted it on the blog and only have one story so far
<cprofitt> +1 dholbach
<sgclark> my first programming was done on a TRS-80 hehe. can't answer that
<dholbach> pleia2, I'm sure you could just nick some snippets from people's wiki pages plus their LP profile pic ;-)
<pleia2> hehe
<dholbach> belkinsa, great!
<belkinsa> Yes, but maybe revise the page into something else better.
<pleia2> sgclark: nice!
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> some of the limitations are for both boys and girls, but if there are things that specifically can be done to encourage young women that would help
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<belkinsa> Maybe this is prefect for the mailing-list and right now to talk about?
<pleia2> belkinsa: yeah
<pleia2> maybe more expertise on the mailing list
<sgclark> my story is still n Alpha stage
<cprofitt> belkinsa: I think so...
<cprofitt> I think I can try to engage some other young women in technology groups that exist and try to map some of their 'stuff' to Ubuntu specifically
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Interviews
<cprofitt> I will take that as a TODO item
<cprofitt> not so much of a TODO, but perhaps it can assist with the process for next time to have some specific ideas / examples etc
<belkinsa> Maybe tie those interviews into the story page?
<belkinsa> Or at least link them?
<pleia2> belkinsa: +1
<belkinsa> On both pages.
<Deindre> thank you pleia2
<Deindre> awesome as usually
<cprofitt> thanks everyone
<sgclark> tanks everyone
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<sgclark> thanks*
<belkinsa> Not a problem and thanks.
<pleia2> Deindre: thanks for being on camera!
<Deindre> I really care about UW project :)
<belkinsa> I think we all do.  :)
<pleia2> dholbach: timing isn't great for my fellow classroom admins for the next session, we can either do a really short one with just you and I, or punt entirely for a non-UDS timeslot (maybe next week) when jose and possibly nigelb are around
<dholbach> pleia2, let's do a short one at least, so we can involve folks who do turn up
<pleia2> ok
<dholbach> an yeah, session next week should work
<dholbach> it would leave time to get another blog post out too :)
<pleia2> :)
<dholbach> pleia2, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpimmh196kvncqlioppimcec
<dholbach> (and everyone else)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Community IRC Workshops and Classrooms for Trusty | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22057/community-1311-classroom/
<ogra_> dholbach, do you plan to cover stuff like phone porting clinics too in the next session ?
<dholbach> ogra_, no, not quite - it was more about ubuntu user days, ubuntu open week, that kind of stuff
<ogra_> yeah, i saw the pad
<dholbach> ogra_, but sure, if you have something to add about porting clinics, we can talk about those too
<ogra_> (thats what made me ask :) )
<dholbach> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpimmh196kvncqlioppimcec
<ogra_> well, we want them, but it is probably rather something we need to coordinate between the phone teams
<dholbach> ogra_, sure... if you drop me a mail about it, we can talk about it next week and line up a few dates
<ogra_> yeah
<dholbach> I'd be happy to help where I can (not being an expert)
<dholbach> ... and participate once I get my fairphone ;-)
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> well, you are the expert for organizing such stuff ;)
<dholbach> any more comments from folks on IRC?
<dholbach> anyone who wants to be included in the invite to the hangout?
<pleia2> thanks dholbach
<pleia2> woo early "lunch"
 * dholbach hugs pleia2
<dholbach> :)
 * pleia2 hugs
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Autopilot planning for trusty | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22072/community-1311-quality-autopilot-roundtable/
 * elfy is lurking 
<elfy> Letozaf_ has come to lurk as well :)
<Letozaf_> elfy, :D
 * elfy wonders where the vid is for it ... 
<elfy> ooh - quiet at the front there ...
<balloons> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj0ogtpvv4788uo7p3rcf58?authuser=0&hl=en <-- hangout link
<balloons> hangout link, if needed: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj0ogtpvv4788uo7p3rcf58?authuser=0&hl=en
<gema> I am with barry, having a golden run on CI should be a must
<gema> all of them
<gema> fix'em all
<gema> thomi: I like your cat :)
<balloons> more cat, less guitars?
<gema> balloons: +1!!
<dobey> are the apps being started with upstart, or directly by autopilot?
<dobey> elopio: ^^
<thomi> dobey: it depends on the app. Several are started with upstart
<elopio> dobey: on the desktop, autopilot runs qmlscene directly
<elopio> on the phone, I think it changed on some.
<balloons> yes, on the phone it's run via upstart (if it's click)
<dobey> elopio: well you don't need xvfb running on the phone though?
<elopio> dobey: no, I would be happy with it working on my desktop.
<dobey> if "xvfb-run -a autopilot" doesn't work, then it's probably a bug in autopilot not passing the environment to the child app, correctly
<dobey> so should be pretty easy to fix
<elopio> dobey: yes, corey told me xvfb-run didn't work. So, that's likely. I'm going to paste your comment on the pad.
<balloons> I noticed thomi escaped with no work items :-)
<pitti> dobey: oh, running xvfb + autopilot isn't that trivial actually
<pitti> dobey: we wrote an autopilot-sandbox-run specifically for this
<balloons> DanChapman, anything you'd like to see?
<pitti> dobey: you can also run it with -X/--xephyr to actually see what it's doing
<balloons> speak now my friend :-)
<DanChapman> thomi is talking about it now
<pitti> dobey: (by default it uses xvfb)
<DanChapman> balloons, ^^
<pitti> elopio: ^
<balloons> lol DanChapman :-)
<thomi> http://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/api/platform.html
<pbass> +1 for dep-8 tests
<balloons> lol thomi I decided to spare the poor cat from the next step
<elopio> thanks pitti, I'll give it a try.
<pitti> elopio: I use it in the shotwell autopkgtest, very convenient
<pitti> elopio: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/shotwell/ubuntu/view/head:/debian/tests/import
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
#ubuntu-uds-community-1 2013-11-21
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Automated ubiquity testing with autopilot | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22063/community-1311-quality-autopilot-image-testing/
<balloons> hangout -> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpjpsnolhdibv2d9as0s29k4?authuser=0&hl=en
<DanChapman> wow is that the time already .... balloons be there in 2
<balloons> DanChapman, :-)
<balloons> DanChapman, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpjpsnolhdibv2d9as0s29k4?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> we'll begin in a moment, waiting to round up everyone
<balloons> :-)
<elfy> hi - not easy to hear Jean -Baptiste
<balloons> hey elfy :-0
<elfy> in fact I only know he's talking because I can see his mouth moving :(
<elfy> balloons: I wouldn't ;)
<balloons> you wouldn't what?
<elfy> balloons: assume all was ok if an autotest said it was without checking
<elfy> especially given we've not had much luck with autotests with our stuff
<elfy> at the moment if we didn't do manual tests then we'd be doing none at all ;)
<elfy> jibel: if you are Jean - Baptiste - I can't hear you :)
<jibel> elfy, I amplified the input volume a bit
<elfy> cheers :)
<DanChapman> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.ta
<DanChapman> g=autopilot&field.tags_combinator=ANY&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.upstream_target=&field.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on&field.has_blueprints.used=&field.has_blueprints=on&field.has_no_blueprints.used=&field.has_no_blueprints=on&search=Search
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | One hundred papercuts for trusty | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22070/community-1311-quality-papercuts/
<druellan> Anyone watching from summit.ubuntu. Inspect <section class="span-5"> and add width="100%" 8)
<balloons> hangout link for anyone wishing to join the fishbowl :-) http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22070/community-1311-quality-papercuts/
<balloons> AlbertoSN you around?
<balloons> or anyone else from the papercuts team?
<balloons> anyone wish to join the fishbowl? http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22070/community-1311-quality-papercuts/
<balloons> bah, my bad. wrong link
<balloons> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpimcdcppk2ccl1q020phsgo?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> AlbertoSN, hello :-)
<AlbertoSN> Hi!
<balloons> AlbertoSN, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpimcdcppk2ccl1q020phsgo?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, QUESTION: I didn't know the project. It says they're "easy bugs" how easy?
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, what kind of person should be able to fix them?
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, do you organize some kind of bug squash party?
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, are they categorized in any way so you can pick from a list?
<la_juyis> balloons, thanks for the tip, I watched to a recorded session yesterday and it was hard to follow the answers without the questions first :D
<balloons> la_juyis, :-)
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, do you involve the reporter of the bug in solving it, or try at least?
<la_juyis> (I'm sorry I'm asking this much, but it looks like an interesting project and I'm curious :))
<balloons> ask away la_juyis!
<balloons> wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/One%20Hundred%20Papercuts/
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, maybe it's a good idea to have them "ready to pick"
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, so that the project can use little chunks of people's time
 * la_juyis writing a clearer question
<la_juyis> I mean, if they're "easy to solve", maybe it's a good idea to involve the reporter - you could gain a new collaborator
<la_juyis> maybe helping them to solve the bug
<la_juyis> themselves
<la_juyis> instead of you solving it
<la_juyis> just an idea :)
<qengho> la_juyis: the audience for the bug is not "you" or someone in particular. It could be reporter that fixes.
<la_juyis> i mean, not just say "DYI", but "how can i help you to solve it" or show the path that needs to be taken, or etc
<la_juyis> sorry, s/dyi/diy
<qengho> la_juyis: that's an americanism, I think.  "Do It Yourself".
<la_juyis> thank you qengho :)
<qengho> Let's get off the topic of "100 Papercuts" philosophy, and let's have a to-do list of what will make it easy to fix 100 small, important bugs in Trusty.
<AlbertoSN> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/One%20Hundred%20Papercuts/One%20Hundred%20Papercuts%20will%20make%20Ubuntu%20shine/Remaining%20actions
<qengho> Is there anything in our way now?
<qengho> I think we should make a list of experts in various subjects to consult when it's not obvious why or how to fix a reported bug. Those can fail the "easy" test of 100PC bugs, but not always.
<balloons> qengho, what is the current escalation process if you get stuck?
<linuxtech> balloons:  I just sent you an email on this issue.  The DPL talked about a how-can-i-help package at http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/11/msg00000.html and it uses a Debian bug tag gift, and stores the data in a little json file, to ask for help with particular packages.  Can we make a how-can-i-help package?
<qengho> balloons: The right way, usually, for 100PC bugs, is to ask around and then unassign yourself from the bug and expect someone else to know. Many eyeballs, et c.
<balloons> qengho, oO. really, just unassign yourself.. intereting
<balloons> I would say a better process would be useful
<balloons> linuxtech, interesting.. so could this allow folks to "get" help in qengho's situation
<qengho> balloons: Let's not worship processes. If you can't fix it, move to something you can. The big win of 100PC is raising awareness of problems that dont' fall into anyone's purview but should be fixable.
<qengho> So, that awareness will bring someone who *can* fix what had you stuck.
<balloons> qengho, I can appreciate that
<balloons> there is beauty in that design
<linuxtech> I can make the how-can-i-help-ubuntu package.  I just spent an hour or two trying to figure out how to get the data out of launchpad and I haven't succeeded.
<linuxtech> My launchpad id is cp.
<balloons> qengho,what do you think of linuxtech's suggestion?
<la_juyis> what about organizing little papercuts sessions in f2f meetings like FS conferences that are already being held, with ubuntu supporters attending anyway?
<la_juyis> and have some scheduled virtual sessions once every two months or so
<linuxtech> I'll write a launchpad list or two and ask for help, after all the json data shouldn't be on my personal server anyway.
<la_juyis> AlbertoSN, can we sort them out into useful categories (the list)?
<qengho> ?
<AlbertoSN> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts
<qengho> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bugs?orderby=-heat&start=0
<la_juyis> and maybe getting reporters more involve could help: if they reported the bug, it's possible that they are annoyed by it and interested in seeing it fixed, and maybe with some help, they can
<AlbertoSN> papercuts-ninja@lists.launchpad.net
<linuxtech> It would diplay the new papercut bugs after apt finishes its run.
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/One%20Hundred%20Papercuts/One%20Hundred%20Papercuts%20will%20make%20Ubuntu%20shine/Remaining%20actions
<balloons> qengho1, any other issues that should be brought up or addressed?
<balloons> linuxtech, I think perhaps seeing the tool in action will help
<qengho1> I don't think we need a how-can-I-help package. 100PC bugs should churn so much that it takes longer to update the package than fix a few PC bugs. Let's not make burdens.  The bugs should be our big burden.
<balloons> qengho1, if you have the knowledge and the bugs are "easy", I agree :-)
<linuxtech> We don't need to install it on everyone's machine, just people who elect to install it.
<qengho1> balloons:There are no formulas for getting rid of bugs. If there were, we would not have those bugs. The Launchpad URL list of many dozens of varying difficulties of bugs is all we should need to give to people.
<linuxtech> I need to loin it I assume.
<linuxtech> join the list...
<balloons> linuxtech, yes I believe so
<balloons> go for it :-)
<qengho> My final suggestion is:
<balloons> ty everyone
<AlbertoSN> Bye bye
<qengho> Ruthlessly go through 100PC bugs on LP and remove ones that are stale or not easy.
<balloons> qengho, feel free to add on the pad as well
<linuxtech> Thank you and have a good day!
<balloons> qengho, so your thoughts are not lost
<balloons> qengho, that sounds like a good idea as a work item
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Touch Core Apps testing needs | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22062/community-1311-coreapps-testing/
<AlbertoSN> Yes, write this down
<AlbertoSN> And have a good day
<AlbertoSN> :D
<AlbertoSN> We'll see what will happen...
<balloons> hangout for touch core apps testing -> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpj9mr34bq9l8h7722ebh2uc?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> come on into the fishbowl, the water's fine :-) https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpj9mr34bq9l8h7722ebh2uc?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> anyone interested in joining the hangout? if not you get just me ;-)
<vthompson> balloons, I'll join ya
<balloons> Dashboard: http://ci.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/
<balloons> http://ci.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/touch/maguro/26:20131120.1:20131120.1/5059/
<mzanetti> but what about API changes in the service?
<mzanetti> you want to catch those
<mzanetti> ideally 2 steps. mock the service, test app with qmltestrunner. have autopilot tests walking through the api
<cjohnston> using an external serivce for testing can provide you with false failures
<mzanetti> 2-step testing... 1) mocks + unit tests, 2) integration tests that that it the api still works
<mzanetti> yeah... you don't need too many AP tests then. Only a few that interact with the server.
<mzanetti> and if the unit tests fail, you know its your app, if AP fails, you know the server's api has changed
<cjohnston> you want AP tests for your app too
<mzanetti> yeah... the test suite that interacts with remote server probably can't block CI
<mzanetti> depends on the tests
<mzanetti> yeah. split the test suites
<cjohnston> if you run the tests but it doesn't block things when it fails, what's the point of running the tests
<cjohnston> why not just check it locally
<mzanetti> cjohnston: how?
<cjohnston> open the app? see if you get data?
<balloons> mzanetti, cjohnston et la, if you wish: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpj9mr34bq9l8h7722ebh2uc?authuser=0&hl=en
<cjohnston> +1 balloons
<cjohnston> there needs to be a quick way to get a fix/release out (and SRU'ed or whatever the process will be) so that people don't stay broken
<plars> ...or revert
<cjohnston> plars: I think we are talking about if the 3rd party API changes and breaks the app
<cjohnston> so reverting wouldn't do anything
<plars> cjohnston: ah, ok I was thinking about the more general case
<cjohnston> you don't want to have tests that fail randomly
<cjohnston> having a test that fails due to a 404 isn't good practice
<plars> how many things other than weather app do we have that depend on remote services? RSS reader does but it shouldn't have 3rd party api problems
<cjohnston> These 'external tests' more than likely wouldn't be run at a set interval, they would be run on MP or something, so it could potentially be days before the tests tell you there is a problem
<balloons> plars, not sure offhand, but you can look through the list
<balloons> clock does also for instance
<balloons> stock ticker
<cjohnston> mzanetti: ^
<cjohnston> (my comment)
<mzanetti> cjohnston: no... I'd run them with fixed intervals
<cjohnston> mzanetti: where?
<plars> ok, so there's lots more coming
<mzanetti> cjohnston: not sure I understand...
<mzanetti> cjohnston: on jenkins
<cjohnston> mzanetti: I don't think that CI is planning to have fixed interval testing abilities
<cjohnston> its going to be event based
<mzanetti> cjohnston: unless it changes from what it is now, that wouldn't be a problem
<cjohnston> its presently event based
<cjohnston> afaik
<plars> maybe on the assert for the testcases that depend on remote services, it could note that it is a remote test, or even in the test case name? That way someone looking at the results might know to take it with a grain of salt
<mzanetti> cjohnston: note that "on MP" is actually a 15 minutes event based job that just checks if some commit has happened before doing anything
<cjohnston> mzanetti: right.. but if there is no MP, it doesn't do anything
<mzanetti> cjohnston: sure. but I don't see a problem with oh. it's 15 pm. run that one test suite then
<cjohnston> I don't think that we have that in the plans for CI
<mzanetti> cjohnston: as I said... unless it changes from what it is now, it just works
<cjohnston> I still don't see how? Jenkins doesn't say "its a specific time, do this" jenkins has a job that runs every X minutes and looks for MPs. if there is no MP it doesn't do anything. you would have to add some sort of logic to give it the ability to say its X time, run tests...
<mzanetti> cjohnston: all the jobs are scheduled like cron jobs. the ci jobs run on */15 * * * *. when they run the first thing they do is to run a custom python script which checks for a changed MP. So if you set the config to * * 0 * * and don't use that python script. it runs the job every midnight
<plars> that sounds much better
<ahayzen> balloons, we use a custom toolbar :)
<balloons> ahayzen, I ALWAYS forget
<dkessel> hey community :)
<balloons> hey dkessel
<balloons> dkessel, want to write some music tests?
<balloons> :-)
<dkessel> hmm :) will the new nexus 7 be supported ? ;)
<dkessel> balloons, ^
<balloons> dkessel, hmm..
<dkessel> balloons, tbh my motivation kind of depends on having a supported device to really run stuff on.
<balloons> dkessel, definitely
<cjohnston> balloons: whats the problem? need more info
<plars> sorry, was responding to something else
<balloons> cjohnston, they exist in jenkins, but not http://ci.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/
<plars> what was the question?
<cjohnston> balloons: are they being run the the daily image testing?
<plars> no, they are not
<plars> they need to be added to run in jenkins
<plars> can you open a bug for them at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ci-services-itself
<plars> and we will look at adding them
<cjohnston> balloons: ^
<balloons> cjohnston, plars ty
<mzanetti> fine with me... was just a suggestion
<balloons> mzanetti, :-)
<ahayzen> balloons, thanks
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Limiting Surveillance | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22016/limiting-surveillance/
<dholbach> gQuigs and everyone else: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj8a1gvucftcan7cn47bbm4
<dholbach> anyone else who's interested in joining?
<dholbach> for everyone who's interested in joining: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj8a1gvucftcan7cn47bbm4
<dholbach> here are the notes for the discussion: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-limiting-surveillance
<mdeslaur> the issue is the hundreds of mirrors, and most of them wouldn't be willing to turn on https
<rbasak> https stops proxy caching from working. That's a feature I value. But sure, I can understand that it stops third parties from seeing packages you're installing, and people should be able to do that.
<mdeslaur> but yeah, having a subset who are willing to do it would be nice
<rbasak> I had no further comment. Having the option for users to have https would be great.
<rbasak> Even if initially it's just one mirror!
<mdeslaur> we can't turn on browser apparmor profiles by default
<rbasak> Are flash and hangouts constrained right now?
<mdeslaur> people are using too many insane browser plugins for that to work
<rbasak> Or are they tied to the browser?
<rbasak> Perhaps make it really easy for people to constrain their browser if they choose to?
<mdeslaur> for example, some people are using gpg plugins, so we couldn't even block access to your gpg keys
<mdeslaur> rbasak: yes, we have a trivial script to enable it
<mdeslaur> it's shipped, but not enabled by default
<rbasak> mdeslaur: I wasn't aware of this! I knew it shipped though.
<rbasak> Perhaps we can point to these things on a single "Ubuntu Privacy" wiki page?
<alexlist> Hm. I think in the long run these issues with plugins will have to be solved upstream.
<mdeslaur> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/FAQ#Firefox_AppArmor_profile
<rbasak> Lag is around one minute I think.
<mdeslaur> ok, perhaps I can join the session
<mdeslaur> one sec
<dholbach> maybe you guys should all join :)
<dholbach> woohoo
<YoBoY> hi
<dholbach> there's https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor which mentions the firefox profile too
<sbeattie> you could use firefox profiles for that, though I think firefox may have discontinuing that feature on their roadmap
<rbasak> mdeslaur: OOI, is there an executable tool that runs aa_change_onexec and then execs "$@"? I want to do this for mutt to use lynx to convert my HTML, to contrain it further than what a general lynx profile would usually do.
<rbasak> (sorry for the aside)
<mdeslaur> rbasak: aa-exec
<rbasak> Ah. Awesome!
<rbasak> I failed to find that the last time I looked. THanks :)
<rbasak> As a first step, how about stopping the user from using any plugins at all except for the default safe set?
<rbasak> Then we wouldn't have to worry so much about what arbitrary plugins could do.
<asomething> somewhere on my list of things to do when I find the time is to package up a Cryptocat webapp
<asomething> not much to really app right now, just something people might want to check out
<asomething> s/app/add/
<linuxtech> Check on cert generation for various server software so that they have PFS, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Forward_Secrecy.
<asomething> https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox
<pstolowski> dholbach, bless you!
<dholbach> pstolowski, thanks :)
<linuxtech> It would also be nice to provide some testing tools so admins can check the existing certs.
<dholbach> maybe it'd be good to agree on a place where future discussions about this kind of stuff could happen?
<dholbach> the security team's list?
<dholbach> just so people who watch the video later on, know where to go
<mdeslaur> perhaps a privacy specialized wiki page and list would be appropriate
<YoBoY> dÃ©sabling lot of scopes is just super hard and takes time
<YoBoY> (for exemple if you want to disable scopes not with results not localised)
<asomething> just noticed that when you turn off online search the dash still read "Search your computer and online sources"
<asomething> just for people's piece of mind that should probably change
<mdeslaur> asomething: that's reasonable, could you file a bug on that, please?
<linuxtech> Setup DNSSEC for ubuntu.com.  Note Debian.org and fedoraproject.org are using DNSSEC.
<asomething> mdeslaur, looks like there is already a bug for the tooltip on the launcher
<asomething> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-scope-home/+bug/1202160
<udsbotu> Launchpad bug 1202160 in Unity Home Scope "Dash title "Search your computer and online sources" should update according to privacy setting" [Medium,Confirmed]
<YoBoY> (an old version of the Dash Privacy Interface : http://iloveubuntu.net/dash-privacy-interface-adds-app-icon-focused-mode-and-legal-notice-attention )
<mdeslaur> asomething: good
<dholbach> we're running out of time
<cm-t_desktop> scrrenshotsÂ :  http://pix.tdct.org/?action=search&method=tag&tag=dash-privacy-interface
<rbasak> cm-t: I don't understand why this is a privacy problem in the first place. I understand that users want to have a choice. But in what way is a user's privacy violated when he types something into a box which searches the Internet?
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone!
<rbasak> How is this different from a Google search box?
<dholbach> track summaries up next: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22026/track-summaries/
<alexlist> time to sleep... it's 3am over here. thanks everyone!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
<gQuigs> rbasak: he isn't expecting to search the internet
<rbasak> gQuigs: so why did he type into a box which says "Search online sources"?
<YoBoY> rbasak, when someone type something on the dash it's not obvious to know he is sending data on the network. He is not using a webbrowser with a google search box
<gQuigs> rbasak: we aren't giving him a choice
<cm-t> exactly
<gQuigs> rbasak: see: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/privacy-ubuntu-1210-amazon-ads-and-data-leaks
<gQuigs> rbasak: see What EFF wants from ubuntu
<cm-t> even if the user want to switch off the onlince sources, if he doesnt know ubuntu, he will probably find into the dash, so will perform an onine search
<cm-t> it is a privacy concern since the scale of his search is outside the scale he want (localy/online)
<cm-t> rbasak: â
<gQuigs> rbasak: it's actually quite similar to what was wanted by the dash-privacy-interface
<gQuigs> err... provided by
<cm-t> even if the network can't hack and read his search, it can know this IP has a think using the computer at this time
<rbasak> I still think it's a stretch to say that there's a privacy leak in the steps it takes the user to find the settings box.
<gQuigs> rbasak: that's true
<cm-t> there is a privacy concern, but its coming from the design of the dash
<gQuigs> but the EFF is there to protect users who may not understand the privacy implications at all;  they are looking out for the "best privacy interests" of all
<cm-t> dash-privacy-interface act to notify the user that ubuntu has great feature to search online, so the user can swith on or off
<rbasak> I think the concern is that most users don't want to be asked a ton of questions. They just want their computer to work.
<sparkiegeek> and if they were to search in Firefox to figure out how they turn off the online source for the Dash? is that just as invasive?
<sparkiegeek> (note I'm +1 on saying it's a stretch - playing devil's advocate here)
<YoBoY> we only ask for better information of the users on first use. Searching on internet from the dash is not the problem (using or not the canonical server as a proxy of the searches)
<cm-t> rbasak: excatly, user doesnt want to be asked a lot, so that is why ubuntu is the first to think DPI (dash-privacy-interface) should be removed from the french iso
<cm-t> but to be removed, there should be a native solution built into the dash
<gQuigs> I agree that, the "search for privacy" issue is a stretch
<cm-t> so it is a design issue imho
<cm-t> ubuntu â ubuntu-fr
<gQuigs> but the defaulting on, IMO is also unnecessarily reckless with user privacy
<rbasak> gQuigs: so you think that the Dash deceives users?
<cm-t> deserve the user's privacy
<gQuigs> rbasak: based on the bug that we don't change "search online sources" when users turn it off, then yes, we actually now know it does....
<gQuigs> it's likely part of the reasons users aren't trusting us when we say we turned it off
<gQuigs> hence fixubuntu.com
<rbasak> gQuigs: where's the bug?
<cm-t> that is why there are rms/eff/mass bad buzz about ubuntu's dash
<gQuigs> rbasak: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-scope-home/+bug/1202160
<udsbotu> Launchpad bug 1202160 in Unity Home Scope "Dash title "Search your computer and online sources" should update according to privacy setting" [Medium,Confirmed]
<rbasak> gQuigs: that looks reasonable, thanks. It doesn't leak privacy though. It's the other way round!
<gQuigs> rbasak: right, but it's likely part of the reason why people aren't trusting us when we tell them,  "See we tell users it will search the internet"   and then here turn it off in Privacy settings
<gQuigs> and we still tell them it will search online... ...
<rbasak> It's a shame that this came about when we made an effort to notify users.
<gQuigs> rbasak: what do you mean?
<rbasak> The bug is valid, of course. But it's ironic that we have to respond to critics because we're erring on the side of caution when warning users.
<rbasak> Since that is exactly what critics are complaining that we're not doing.
<cm-t> user's privacy is a topic when the user want to share something at a scale he wants, and this scale isn't the want he wanted
<cm-t> so there is this notifying issue
<cm-t> to be sure the user know the scale of the search
<cm-t> but there is another issue:
<cm-t> how to change the scale
<gQuigs> rbasak: that's not on the side of caution;  it indicates that we aren't sure what's going to happen with the users search
<cm-t> you allready said the user doesnt want question, may i traduce that by, he does'nt want open a setting tab every time he wants to switch the scale ?
<rbasak> Well, the point of the interface is that it'll figure out what you want, rather than you having to tell it by adjusting the scale all the time.
<cm-t> so i think the dash should provide an in-situ way to turn on/off online search
<rbasak> If you don't want that, then perhaps you're using the wrong interface.
<rbasak> I think this interface caters for "human beings", which is what Ubuntu sets out to do.
<rbasak> But Xubuntu and Lubuntu are still available and promoted as alternatives.
<cm-t> hum
<YoBoY> rbasak, are you saying we have to stop to support and promote ubuntu because we think there is something wrong from the point of view of a majority of our users ?
<cm-t> let image possibility
<rbasak> To be clear, this is My Humble Opinion.
<cm-t> you work at office
<cm-t> it is Ubuntu
<rbasak> Xubuntu and Lubuntu are still part of Ubuntu.
<cm-t> you can't install your OS
<rbasak> I certainly don't want to tune my settings for every search.
<cm-t> user'privacy is the user's privacy, not the host (company for example) privacy in first place
<rbasak> YoBoY: IMHO, you don't speak for the majority of users (and neither do I)
<cm-t> so xubuntu, lubuntu is not the awnser to this problem
<YoBoY> I speak for the users of my locoteam
<YoBoY> (ubuntu-fr)
<cm-t> rbasak: â
<rbasak> Well, I support your ability to patch software as you wish.
<rbasak> And make that available to users who want it.
<rbasak> That's the great thing about open source/free software.
<rbasak> What Unity upstream do is not up to me, though.
<YoBoY> but if we want to follow the ubuntu brand policy, if we do that, we have to change the name of our live DVD
<YoBoY> (the ubuntu french edition which is a localised live DVD)
<rbasak> I understand that problem.
<rbasak> And that you want something different.
<rbasak> So the question is: what should Ubuntu do?
<cm-t> and our goal is not to support dash-privacy-interface, it is suppose to be a temporary fix waiting for a dash design real fix
<rbasak> That's probably something between the Unity design team and the community councilÂ·
<YoBoY> inform more the users on how the dash work on first use. See it like a tutorial on first launch pointing to the right informations
<cm-t> 20:20 < rbasak> I think this interface caters for "human beings", which is what Ubuntu sets out to do.
<cm-t> not sure if i make sense by awsering you after that in many lines
<cm-t> but
<cm-t_desktop> cm-t: test
<rbasak> Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that you've actually written the interface that you're proposing.
<cm-t_desktop> well, i am the main developper of that
<cm-t_desktop> and i am maybe the first who want to see it dead
<gQuigs> And Ubuntu is going against the EFF here... I'm not sure if anyone has more experience protecting user privacy then them
<cm-t_desktop> because i want ubuntu have a native awser to that problem
<cm-t_desktop> that is why i wrote in the pad that design/ergonomy team should be here for that point
<cm-t_desktop> because dash-privacy-interface should be just temporary here until dash has an in-situ switch online/offline higltlighted
<rbasak> Well the EFF is basically saying that they want Unity made less useful or to bombard the user with questions.
<cm-t_desktop> exactly
<cm-t_desktop> so that' is why it is an ergonomy/design issue
<YoBoY> it's the price to have a all-in-one app_launcher/file_search/dictionnary/calculator/store/â¦
<cm-t_desktop> not a dev first level, but ergonomy/design
<cm-t_desktop> the user story should has the less as possible the user
<cm-t_desktop> but the user should access as fast and as easy as possible to the swith online/offline option
<cm-t_desktop> i'm not designer, but an example:  [SEARCH STRING                        here the button]  â unity search bar
<cm-t_desktop> with a notification overlat when searching for the first time if it is opt-in
<cm-t_desktop> overlay*
<cm-t_desktop> like I said I am not designer/ergonomist, but here just some idea,  i saw many of them in the pad that was openened 1 years ago
<cm-t_desktop> them == other idea
<cm-t_desktop> I want the day team design/ergonomy add this concern of their todo list (not flaming at all they do nothing, i know they have lot of work)
<cm-t_desktop> since ubuntu ask user using a LTS for no cutting edge feature, ubuntu-fr added dash-privacy-interface in the hope something will come with 14.04 LTS
<cm-t_desktop> but it seems not (for the moment)
<rbasak> I appreciate your flame-free approach here. Are you connected to the right team? Right here the discussion has happened but I fear that it will go no further.
<gQuigs> cm-t_desktop: yea, I was just going to add, please do contact the design team directly
<rbasak> Perhaps dholbach can help with connecting you to the design team?
<dholbach> you can ask in #ubuntu-design
<dholbach> or check out http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/design/ for a couple more links
<YoBoY> (last time I contacted them for help on something 7 months ago,â¦ still waiting an answer ^^")
<cm-t_desktop> let's try anyway
<YoBoY> +1
<YoBoY> we have to try, and if it's not working, we have to try harder ;)
<cm-t_desktop> it is my message, hey we need that , we need that, but I don't remember asking them direclty
<rbasak> I am in favour of a "privacy mode" which is activated all the way from lightdm and logs you in as an anonymous user with all settings turned to maximum privacy (at the cost of minimum utility).
<cm-t_desktop> if this prodcue something, i will be proud (to make something better in ubuntu) but ashamed (waiting 1 years to get in touch with the good people)
<rbasak> If that were based on Unity, then I figure online searches would be turned off by default. And Tor turned on in Firefox, with Firefox constrained and all plugins turned off. Etc.
<rbasak> But only for that login.
<rbasak> Anyway, time to go.
<cm-t_desktop> rbasak: thanks for sharing your point of view
<cm-t_desktop> good night
<rbasak> I appreciate your thoughts on this. I think I disagree with you, but that's not to say that I think you should not be heard.
<cm-t_desktop> thank
<rbasak> And I really appreciate that you're being constructive.
<cm-t_desktop> i am tryng my best
<rbasak> I think you deserve a straight answer.
<cm-t_desktop> i am not a unity hater, i really love the feature to search online, but also i am aware of the privacy issues, so i try to find something
<cm-t_desktop> we have a french speaking uds pleanry session (#ubuntu-uds-plenary) so i have to go
