#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-01
<jussi01> persia: seen this? http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/PsiXpda/
<persia> heh.  A repacked Sharp D4 with an SSD.
<persia> Oh, and with lower resolution.
<jussi01> persia: this also looks interesting: http://www.pocketables.net/2008/08/compal-unveils.html
<jussi01> although Im not overly keen on the atom...
<persia> That one was demo's at UDS Prague.
<jussi01> oh? 
<jussi01> was it any good?
 * jussi01 thinks its rather like a n810...
<persia> Split 1G/1G storage is annoying to work around.  Needs some proprietary drivers.  Otherwise about what you'd expect for MID with a 3-4 hour battery life.
<persia> Heavier than an n810.
<persia> Oh, and USB host is easier to do than with an n810.
<persia> But you *should* be talking to me about this in #ubuntu-mobile :p
<jussi01> hrm
<rlameiro> stochastic: how are you
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-02
<stochastic> rlameiro, just fine.  My voice is still recovering from yesterday's olympic celebrations though
 * TheMuso will always remember this olympics for the controvercy surrounding safety.
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> stochastic: did you looked at the video
<stochastic> briefly yes
<stochastic> TheMuso, this is what I'll remember about the olympics: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tTCyS07dYVs/S4wWLg-f9LI/AAAAAAAADAA/WXHdXPPyNXw/s1600-h/Robson+Street+crowds+Vancouver+2010.jpg
<stochastic> and http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tTCyS07dYVs/S4wU5v8o4NI/AAAAAAAAC_o/DVnmbB-mMQA/s1600-h/Robson+%26+Granville+Celebrations.jpg
<rlameiro> what do you think about that
<rlameiro> all made with opensource
<rlameiro> :D
<rlameiro> and ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNsOtl8ia0k
<TheMuso> stochastic: right
<stochastic> rlameiro, sounds good.
<rlameiro> stochastic: an the hockey team won :D
<stochastic> rlameiro, yeah, those pics I linked to were taken just after the hockey win.  That street party carried on well into the morning.  Pretty impressive seeing as we won around 2:30 in the afternoon here.
<rlameiro> well, you canadians really like to party
<rlameiro> you would love Portugal
<stochastic> :)
<rlameiro> stochastic: just waiting for my 7200 RPM 500GB HDD for my laptop
<rlameiro> after that I will have a partition only for testing ISOS
<rlameiro> at 7200 RPM
<rlameiro> :D
<stochastic> I got to go, dinner is ready.
<rlameiro> have a good dinner then
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-03
 * abogani waves
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-04
<ScottL> oi, I just reread over last meeting's meetings and it would appear what we were supposed to do something about the Plymouth theme before the UIFreeze, March 4th, that would appear to be tomorrow
<persia> Ideally, indeed.
<ScottL> oh hi, persia :)
<persia> If anyone has something that kinda almost works, I'm happy to push it in the next few hours.
<persia> But I'm the *wrong* person to create a visual effect.
<ScottL> yeah, i'm not a visual arts type of guy either usually, certainly not on command
<ScottL> it appeared that we had the green light to have a dedicated forum at Ubuntu Forums...I wonder when that will officially happen?
<persia> Given the way things usually work in Ubuntu: when someone gets around to it.
<persia> Feel free to be that person :)
<ScottL> are you suggesting that _I_ change the forum name?  I certainly don't have that authority or permission
<persia> Well, you could get it, or figure out what needs doing, and have someone else who does implement your changse.
<persia> Most stuff in Ubuntu is about permissions, not authority.  There are precious few folks who are granted authority: most folk are just granted permissions once they have demonstrated they can use them.
<persia> And most stuff gets done because someone goes and makes sure it gets done, rather than because it's someone's "job" to do it.
<ScottL> righty ho, I will follow this through then
<ScottL> I can follow up with jussi01 , reply to the emails and contact someone on the forum - unless you have a more specific suggestion about who I should contact
<persia> I'd probably try to catch one of the forums admins on IRC and ask them the best way to proceed, citing the decision authorising the change.
<persia> My experience is that they would either just do it, or train me how (when working in other areas)
<ScottL> persia, if you wanted to push some artwork you might select something from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserContributed
<ScottL> #1, 4 and 5 under wallpapers looks good
<persia> It needs to be integrated into a plymouth theme though, which I don't know how to do.
<persia> But given the big announcement about Ubuntu interfaces changing, I suspect that if something got put together this weekend, we could get a freeze excepting citing the branding changes.
<ScottL> heh ;P hopefully
<ScottL> if I had thought about it I would have posting the forums and on a few mailing list a week ago or so
<ScottL> maybe I'll read up on Plymouth during work tomorrow and Friday
<ScottL> am I looking for an admin or council member for the ubuntu forums renaming?  I just realized I'd been trying to reach council members :(
<persia> I don't know.  I usually hunt council members because I spend a lot of time in various councils and boards, so they all know me.  An admin is probably more directly useful :)
<ScottL> i'm trying for admins now but I'm name dropping jdong and matthewk since they replied to the email
<ScottL> i wonder if we might consider moving away from audacious and back to rhythmbox since the new ubuntu music store will be teathered to it
<persia> "back" to rhythmbox?
<persia> I don't think we ever intentionally used that by default, in part because it has an assumption of a static library.
<ScottL> didn't ubuntu studio used to have rhythmbox?
<ScottL> oh
<persia> Audacious is a handy UI to preview output mp3s from a creative process (or that was the argument used previously)
<persia> any of the "Music Manager" tools tend to be less ideal when you've got 8 revisions of the same song and are previewing MP3s to review which mastering and what compression options produce the best artifact for distribution.
<persia> That said, they are all *way* better if you just want to listen to your music library :)
<ScottL> eh, i didn't know that about audacious, i've always found it hard to read, click and use comapred to rhythmbox
<ScottL> and i remembered that I d/l'd RB manually to rip some cds
<persia> The key bit is that it doesn't have any concept of library.  It just reads one or more files from the HD.
<ScottL> oh and jdong replied to me in #ubuntuforums and said he'll revive the trhead and apply the changes
<persia> It has some library-like functions, but I don't think those are the ones that make it interesting as a studio tool.
<persia> Cool!
<persia> (note that I personally never master anything, rather just fiddle with soundscapes, so I may have a slightly skewed view of this class of tool use)
<ScottL> maybe it's vain, or just silly neophyte thinking, but I think I might start writing some of the things I help accomplish in Ubuntu studio so I can remember these things
<ScottL> like the ubuntu forums renaming
<persia> Are you an Ubuntu Member yet?
<ScottL> no, i haven't applied for a couple of reasons   a) it says that it's rare for someone with less than 6 months of continual work (I have probably less than 3)
<ScottL> b) i'm not sure where to apply
<persia> Then document *everything* you do on your wiki page.
<ScottL> the wiki said for technical areas I should apply to MOTU council which just disbanded didn't it?
<persia> Rather than considering it vanity, consider it building up a record of achievements for review by whichever board reviews your membership aplication.
<persia> Which wiki page.  I'm supposed to fix that.
<ScottL> okay, the fits into desires :)
<ScottL> hold on
<persia> MOTU Council hasn't disbanded yet, but I expect it to do so soon (two of the three current members have written recommending it disband)
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership     see Procedure for Obtaining Membership, the last line in that heading
<ScottL> which leads to   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<persia> I know the latter page is fixed.
<persia> But I'll get rid of the reference to "MOTU Council" on the former page.
<persia> ScottL: Does that look better?  Did I miss anything?
<ScottL> oh, i'm glad you said the page had been fixed because I was feeling guilty as I couldn't find the references that I thought I remembered :/
<ScottL> i'll take a look later tonight or early tomorrow morning, trying to get son to go to bed
<persia> I've been rewriting that page about once a month based on various actions assigned to me in TB and DMB meetings since December.
<persia> I'm hoping it can stay static for the next six months at least.
<persia> Ugh.  There's another bug on that page.
<ScottL> persia, both pages look good now (as far as I can tell)
<persia> Cool.
<ScottL> I even found a few other pages now linked to those two pages for the process and they look good as well
<persia> There's still some work to do on the graphic, and I'm waiting for feedback from the Community Council to sort out some confusion, but that it looks good to you means that I've made a good start.
<ScottL> I bookmarked those for future reference for myself to apply for membership
<ScottL> I noticed that there used to be two graphics and now there is one - that is a good editorial decision IMO
<ScottL> persia, in your estimation, should I really wait until I've contributed six months to apply for membership or do you think I might be able to shave off some time and apply earlier
<persia> Speaking just for myself, I'll consider a candiadte at about 3 months if they are very active and highly spoken of by others, but I prefer six.
<ScottL> cool...it's not a pressing concern or even an end objective, but I _really_ like to be organized and have a plan so I can work towards success
<ScottL> so, i'll start updating my wiki with accomplishments and in a few months have a go at it then
<persia> Sounds like a plan.
<ScottL> persia, speaking of plans, tentatively I plan on updating the ubuntu studio fresh installation - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Fresh%20Install
<ScottL> and installed applications list - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Fresh%20Install
<ScottL> errrr. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/Applications
<ScottL> for the next month (approx.) and then I'll be getting back to the zynjacku package
<ScottL> i didn't want to wait too long before getting back to zynjacku in REVU but the installation page was never really finished and lucid is significantly different that these pages really should be addressed
<ScottL> grubs adds a few extra (and unintuitive IMO) steps to the installation and we've added and updated several (yay!) packages for lucid
<ScottL> s/grubs/grub2
<persia> ScottL: Thanks!  All that would be very helpful.
<persia> You might want to wait until this weekend though, as UI Freeze hasn't come into effect yet.
<persia> Or at least wait for the screenshots :)
<ScottL> I was planning on getting to the applications list first as it is the most straight forward, so I shouldn't start the installation update until next weekend 
<persia> makes sense.  If you encounter some change you need in the applications list whilst you're working on it, say so.
<persia> You know about the manifest files, right?
<ScottL> i know nothing about the manifest files
<ScottL> generally I just look through the menu to find out which application is installed then use ubuntu packages website to see which version is in lucid if it isn't clear when running the app
<ScottL> persia, I am leaving to take son to care and go to work but I would like to continue this discussion at work, if you would be so kind as to not respond until I log on at work I would be grateful
<ScottL> this way I don't have to wait until I get home to read and understand -   it should be just over an hour until I log in again
<persia> No problem :)
<ScottL_> persia: I am now logged in at work :)
<ScottL_> also, tomorrow is the release meeting and I am planning to keep one eye on it
 * persia digs up the URL
<persia> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/lucid-alternate-i386.list
<persia> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/lucid-alternate-amd64.list
<persia> Shows the list of stuff on the CD for each architecture.
<persia> Not all of it is particularly exciting, but those are comprehensive lists (which other lists may not be)
<ScottL_> apparently it's _everything_ on the cd LOL
<persia> Indeed it is, and it's so much that it doesn't even fit on a CD.
<ScottL_> doh, yeah...DVD
<persia> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.lucid may contain more palatable information, but less complete
<ScottL_> persia: when you mentioned the Audaucious UI before, which UI is it and what inferred that it would be helpful to determining differentiating between versions of songs, how would it do that?
<ScottL_> i tried a google search for audacious on the dev mailing list but am coming up dry
<persia> What makes it useful for that is not any nifty UI feature, but that it lets you open arbitrary files in directories, rather than trying to manage a library (or did last time I used it: my keyboard is currently covered in bags and boxes of other sorts of electronic gear)
<persia> Just install and run it.  If you don't think it's useful, don't mention it.  If it grew a library feature then it doesn't even help for the use cases I thought it did.
<ScottL_> oh, okay...that ties in with your comment about a static library....you don't import it in and it's in your "library", you have option of opening a file by browsing to it
<persia> Right, so if you have a bunch of temporary stuff because you're creating it, or because you're auditing stuff for your label, etc. you don't need to import, play, delete: simplified workflow.
<ScottL_> audacious was rather unstable for me under hardy and couple rip cds with it, so I installed and stuck with rhythmbox
<persia> This isn't actually an interesting feature for people who just want to listen to music, but they can use Rhythmbox or Banshee or something.
<ScottL_> audacious2 is more stable and i've used it a bit, but I'll spend some more time with it....and yes, one of my criticisms of rhythmbox is that I couldn't open a file to play
<ScottL_> s/couple/couldn't
<persia> Which is fine *except* when you want to check if the latest master is suitable to send to a client :)
<ScottL_> persia: I know that I bug you often asking questions and I wanted you to know that I always appreciate the time you take to answer them :)
<persia> No worries.  If I'm too busy to answer, or doing something else that occupies my attention, you'll just have to wait a while.
<persia> And maybe someone else will answer first.
<ScottL_> troy_s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=408OfAJu3Y8   that freaking rocked dude!   that was bloody brilliant IMO
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> ScottL_: Hey thanks for that.
<ScottL_> troy_s: richard's blog you linked had that linked in it - blows the crap out of all the other progress bars I've seen lately
<troy_s> ScottL_: It's just... different. Not an end unto itself really. The more I learn the less I know.
<troy_s> ScottL_: It must be nice having a bunch of people with all of these clear ideas around though. Rights and wrongs / yes and nos.
<ScottL_> troy_s:   but it's certainly not in lock step with all the other conventional approaches, that was refreshing and inspired IMO
<troy_s> ScottL_: That was the point of it. It seems we are all guilty of being lazy - me included. "How do you show progress? Progress bar of course!"
<ScottL_> troy_s: and it's linear of course...that's progress
<troy_s> ScottL_: Sort of stifling lazy. For example, radio boxes were sort of 'yeah that's it' end point. Now look at say the iPhone and you see a slide toggle.
<ScottL_> you move from this point to the next
<troy_s> ScottL_: Othering! There has been research on language and it's relationship to thought. Which of course impacts visual language. Mandarin speakers see time vertically equally as much as horizontally.
<troy_s> ScottL_: It's just a huge challenge to reach out as we do worldwide and avoid the issue of context. While doing that, maybe we can come up with creative re-envisions.
<troy_s> ScottL_: It just isn't on the table. And when it has been brought up the inevitable "Well does microsoft or apple do it?"
<troy_s> ScottL_: Sad.
<troy_s> ScottL_: So while we dicker around following old dogs with no tricks develop default looks for GNOME3
<ScottL_> troy_s: heh, yeah, so far i'm not looking forward to gnome3
<troy_s> ScottL_: Even companies like Microsoft are moving.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_WPdg6zUeE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0-pxBZBvlM 
<troy_s> ScottL_: The theme alone is atrocious
<troy_s> ScottL_: Enough with the untrained and unqualified buffoonery.
<troy_s> ScottL_: Look at that Zune HD demo
<troy_s> ScottL_Brilliant fricking typographic work, innovative solutions to audience needs, etc.
<troy_s> ScottL_: Have you seen that before? 
<troy_s> ScottL_: Now ask yourself how open our culture would be if someone stood up and said "We should do some typographic work - like not show the whole title."
<troy_s> ScottL_: The blind usability idiots would be up in arms.
<ScottL_> troy_s: no, i haven't seen either of them - the first one is amazing, i like how the select option/text is moved up and barely still visible
<troy_s> ScottL_: Bingo. Bloody brilliant typographic work. Chic as hell.
<ScottL_> apparently zune is the next iphone
<ScottL_> troy_s: and why do phones have to slid just left and right, why not up and down, hell, why not diagonally?
<troy_s> ScottL_: If you have used one with inertial browsing etc, the question that is begged is "Why the hell don't our desktops do this?"
<troy_s> ScottL_: Why _not_ a parallax desktop?
<ScottL_> troy_s:  man, that's inspiring and i'm not even a visual graphics type of guy (more like pragmatic and utilitarian type of guy)
<troy_s> ScottL_: Actually
<ScottL_> troy_s:  yeah, good questions about our desktops not doing something
<troy_s> ScottL_: There are two solid pieces of research that suggest that in fact all the usability peddled rubbish in the world is trumped by aesthetics.
<troy_s> ScottL_: It is referred to as the aesthetic usability effect. Systems that aren't inherently 'usable' (wtf that means) are accepted as such when they provide the audience with aesthetic experience.
<troy_s> ScottL_: A volkswagen is the same as a ferrari when you are in the street
<persia> People just kinda like pretty shiny stuff.
<troy_s> persia: It's deeper than that.
<ScottL_> troy_s: lol @ "wtf that means"
<troy_s> persia: A shovel is a shovel. An expert level shovel is different, and within that, a shovel has limited scope of application unless you work with it 24/7.
<persia> troy_s: No it isn't.  "people just kinda like pretty shiny stuff" is just another way of saying it.
<troy_s> persia: When the tool is something far more nebulous and much far reaching, you can't really avoid the issue of aesthetic / presences / emotional experience.
<persia> I could say "Humans have a natural prediliction for the aesthetically pleasing, and will prefer such experiences over those that may be easier but less satisfying".
<persia> It's the same thing.
<troy_s> persia: I agree. It is just that it sort of trivializes it. Which is what we do in Libre.
<troy_s> persia: It isn't trivial. It's real. Not a side effect, but centre stage.
<persia> Sorry.  Didn't mean to trivialise.
<persia> Absolutely.
<persia> We're all corbies at heart.
<troy_s> persia: Not offended at all. You are a damn bright guy, but we are _all_ guilty of ignoring it in Libre.
<troy_s> persia: We _all_ turn a blind eye to just how important it is. Worse, we don't care how to get there it seems.
<ScottL_> "corbies"   what is that?
<persia> ScottL_: It's a class of bird.  Includes crows, Ravens, Mockingbirds, etc.
<persia> They are tool and language using, but often dismissed because they prefer glittering foil to food, etc.
<troy_s> persia: I don't know. Is it pure 'gather the shiny thing' or is it about emotion and experience?
<persia> Most of the larger-brained species can speak human languages with appropriate surgery.
<troy_s> persia: Tough question granted.
<persia> troy_s: I think it's entirely emotional, and I think that the shiny evokes emotions.
<troy_s> persia: Do people want to browse data or have an experience? Go to Jacob Neilsen's site to see what you prefer. Lol.
<persia> The experience is just the combination of emotional and intellectual satisfaction.
<troy_s> persia: You mean "shiny" I assume? As in 'whatever is contextually desireable for a given group'.
<persia> I want data, because I use that to develop my experience.  I expect most people like to play simpler games.
<persia> troy_s: By "shiny" I mean that which attracts attention over other things, and when used not only draws our own attention, but the attention of others.
<persia> We are social creatures, and performing actions that cause others to ask "What's that?" makes us feel good.
<troy_s> You guys ought to blog about those things.
<troy_s> Bring them to the forefront of attention instead of letting us get pelted to death with the trivial tripe.
<persia> I don't blog.  I just chatter on IRC.
<troy_s> persia: As I said, you should blog about that.
<persia> I find that I think best interactively.
<persia> As part of a corporate entity, I am very effective.
<troy_s> persia: Problem is that it floats off in a puff of smoke.
<persia> Attempting to do things without the interplay of co-minds doesn't work as well.
<troy_s> persia: Blogging creates breadcrumbs that allow for ideas to take over time.
<troy_s> persia: Agree with you.
<troy_s> persia: But take this post for example:
<persia> Actually, a surprising amount doesn't.  Lots of folks with whom I discuss things are better than I at expressing things in other fora, and share the ideas.
<troy_s> persia: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-February/msg00174.html
<troy_s> persia: Almost five years ago. Has _huge_ resonance right now.
<troy_s> persia: And we still can't deal with what Havoc said - someone that has been there and done that far more than 99% of the people idling around at the moment.
<troy_s> persia: That is a bloody brilliant posting. Cuts to the chase of about 99.9% of the _core_ of the problems that challenge us in Free Software.
<ScottL_> troy_s:  along with the post do you have any books or blogs you can recommend about your visual graphic and design?
<troy_s> persia: I'd liken it to chess. I don't know if you have played it or studied it, but at some point in your chess you learn that you need to UNLEARN the very things that gave you some degree of success. You need to force yourself to _not_ do what gave you the wins before. You often lose for the first while, but if you fail to unlearn the foolish background, you keep ramming into the ceiling of your current methodology.
<troy_s> ScottL_: Oh god. I have started to put my books up on Google for that very question. Blogs shift. I love Juxtapose.
<jussi01> ScottL_: thanks for that email, I had forgotten to follow up
<ScottL_> troy_s: if you were to suggest one or two of your books, can you point those out?
<troy_s> ScottL_ I have about 40% of my books up http://books.google.ca/books?op=library
<troy_s> ScottL_: I have a soft spot for book. 
<ScottL_> jussi01: no problem, persia proded me actually
<ScottL_> troy_s: i prefer books for serious things, i always go back to reread and learn/understand more each time I do
<troy_s> ScottL_:  It really depends on what you want out of them. My personal gut belief is that you start as many a bright mind has suggested - start with 'where does it come from'. That means history. As dull as that sounds.
<persia> ScottL_: No, you prodded yourself.  I just pointed out that you had when you said "someone should do this".
<persia> troy_s: I think of it more like an art project, or a game.  It's hard to make it work if you have lots of folks and easier if you have fewer.  If you're really good, you can create something that causes the audience to create the experience.
<troy_s> ScottL_: Art and design is language. So it helps to know what the language is, who created certain words and conventions, etc. So the Thames and Hudsons do a great glossing of art from early art to Westernized focus.
<ScottL_> crap, I just remembered I was suppossed to be reading up on the Plymouth theme today :(
<troy_s> persia: Maybe. But that isn't borne out by research. In game theory studies while we would like to THINK that we innovate, what ends up being shown in research is that we apparently have a predisposition to simply take what the successful have done and repeat it. (Great example would be Survivor on TV. lol)
<persia> troy_s: I mean game design, not gameplay
<troy_s> persia: So the idea of getting to the place where people create the experience means we have to prove it effectively and succeed with it. THAT part is tough.
<troy_s> persia: Practically - given the past say, 10 years? We suck.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> persia: So something needs to shift likely. That something is what I believe Havoc _nails_ on the head.
<persia> Yes, but he didn't actually follow through.
<persia> There are folk who *are* creating that experience, but they do it on the edges, in small teams.
<troy_s> persia: He did though. :)
<persia> And some of the stuff is hard to get back.
<troy_s> persia: He bailed on the whole GNOME culture and walked out to work with Litl.
<persia> I know.
<troy_s> persia: But does that 'edge' approach work?
<troy_s> persia: Look at GNOME3 - that isn't edge work.
<persia> In terms of creating a compelling experience, yes.  In terms of changing the culture of mainstream free software?  Not really.
<troy_s> persia: Wow. Ok. So I guess we have to disagree then.
<troy_s> persia: I find GNOME3 interface mocks and every section of Free Software from the _core_ entirely hopeless. I may be missing something granted.
<troy_s> persia: I'd love to see an example that you would cite though.
<persia> troy_s: I agree with you about that.
<persia> I just believe there is good work happening at the edges, in derivatives, based on core libraries 3-5 years old.
<troy_s> wtf... I have a lot of Mountain View hits lately.
<persia> By small teams.
<troy_s> persia: Agree likely. It reeks of hegemony though. Unfortunate. Especially when some of the bastions that many celebrate as being core to the culture are actually half committed dual booters etc.
<persia> You conflate "core" meaning "central" and "core" meaning "governing".  Don't do that.
<persia> Many folks are conservative.  Those that are tend to cluseter, and those that aren't tend to head off in wildly different directions.
<persia> As a result it appears the majority is conservative.  This may or may not actually be true.
<persia> But there is no usefully organised governance.
<persia> The software is free.
<persia> The true subversive will work to enable the exciting in the base libraries while supporting the staid.
<persia> This distributes support for the ability to do the interesting and reduces the effort required.
<persia> Those on the edges can create more exciting things, and pull in more directions.
<persia> This diffuses the core, and enables the subversive.
<troy_s> But the question I guess I have is, is that the case?
<persia> Do you mean: are there subversives?
<persia> Or do you question my model?
<troy_s> persia: I agree that the premise is correct. But what is coming out doesn't seem to suggest that it is working.
<persia> Then I contend you aren't looking.
<troy_s> persia: Practically - I like the idea but the reality doesn't seem to be that way.
<persia> Consider the way plasma works, and how those interfaces are constructed, and what that enables.
<persia> Consider what pulse + gstreamer + libcamberra has enabled
<troy_s> persia: Hrm. But plasma's ability to see further life sort of depends on someone actually using that and demonstrating in a compelling fashion. I'm all for that. I just don't see it.
<troy_s> persia: Rather like when I did a really poopy demo in Blender and someone goes "I had no idea that you could do that. I'm going to try it."
<persia> troy_s: You'll end up seeing it in some device based on linux with some monolithic source repo.
<persia> It will take a long time for it to filter back.
<persia> Or some art demo
<troy_s> persia: That's sort of more my point. I'm not saying that the underlying structure isn't strong in some cases (and godawful weak in others - hello ffmpeg)
<persia> Or something.
<troy_s> persia: It can't take a long time. 
<persia> Why not?
<troy_s> persia: Today blips in the fastest timeslice
<persia> Yes, but free code lasts forever, bugs and all.
<troy_s> persia: By the time someone has embraced it, it will be exactly where we are now. To quote Rich's quote - the best damn piano rolldown ever but we are all using PMPs now.
<persia> And as we enable the edges to be more exciting, we draw funding to the edges, and that funding pushes the core, and the feedback loop tightens.
<persia> For example, the arbitrary user cannot create the N900 experience.
<persia> But in creating the N900 experience, Nokia needed to enable others to create massive portions of it.
<troy_s> persia: The _only_ problem with the theory is that every second that we stall, we lose gravity and people that move on. Not many are as comitted.
<persia> This is a repeatable event.
<troy_s> persia: N900 is such an non event. Bad example.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> persia: I'd buy into it if you had of said Android.
<persia> No.  It is a good example of the feedback loop.  That the interface happens to suck is separate.
<troy_s> persia: LOL
<persia> Android is a bad example of the feedback loop.
<persia> It was not created based on what had been enabled.
<troy_s> persia: I think we are likely on the same side of the discussion. My only issue is that it doesn't happen fast enough because we are avoiding the central issue in Havoc's post. It would be a helluva lot faster, a helluva lot less stop energy, etc., if everyone embraced the idea that we are dealing with audience constraints. 
<persia> It was created from scratch with only the slightest reference to free software.
<persia> To me the obvious solution is to splinter the deliverable sufficiently that each product is uniquely tailored to an audience of one.
<troy_s> persia: Bingo.
<persia> and the only way to do that is to bring the enablement enough to the surface that every user is inherently creating their own interface.
<persia> But this must be done in a way that appears to be based on defaults.  Just handing people E17 is insufficient because the tools are not there.
<troy_s> persia: Won't happen. There are vast untapped audiences that have no desire to do that.
<persia> To get the tools we need time.
<persia> troy_s: How many users do you know who don't set the background?
<troy_s> unless you mean distro end zones
<troy_s> persia: Not going to disagree with you there at all. But when it comes to adding backgrounds, then buttons, etc., you are dealing with time and you could make a pretty strong case that the numbers (currently - may change) don't bear it out.
<troy_s> persia: And perhaps more importantly, giving a sane starting point for that audience to uptake is the bigger hill at this point.
<troy_s> persia: If the audience never touches it, never even sniffs at it, everything beyond that is _moot_.
<persia> The key is making the tools to create the interface sufficiently invisible to the user that the experience of customisation has no barrier to entry.
<persia> That takes time, and in the meantime, to secure continued support from those members of the larger development community we must agree to some perhaps less ideal defaults and experiment on the edges.
<persia> Audience uptake is mostly a matter of retail sale.  90% of devices sold do not end up with a replacement operating system.
<persia> I suspect that number would be 95-98% if our software stack was more widely available.
<persia> Retail sale is a matter of compelling demonstrations to product manufacturers.
<persia> But that happens on the edges, where experimentation is available.
<troy_s> persia: Moot point. If that were the sole thing, Microsoft would have zero competition.
<persia> That e.g. GNOME goes in the wrong direction has zero impact there, and it is there that the game is won.
<troy_s> persia: There's more complexity under that hood.
<persia> True.
<troy_s> persia: Not easy answers for certain, but it certainly deals with audience desire.
<troy_s> persia: And getting there we can't skirt around the issue by saying "It certainly deals with ___________ desire."
<persia> No, that's pointless.
<troy_s> persia: (As much as it is equally easy to say YES to with that huge blank in there.)
<persia> It's about desire in the raw form.
<persia> which has nothing to do with any use case.
<troy_s> persia: (Which is where we are. We are starting to say the right words like "Cool" "Funky" "Quirky" "Elegant" "Beautiful" blah blah, but we are phrasing that exact phrase with that glaring blank. Unfortunately, again the question looks easy to answer WITHOUT the term and COMPLICATED as hell with.)
<persia> I suspect that if one sold a device that was incapable of browsing the internet, listening to music, or permitting voice calling, one could still be successful if one was able to depoy it with an enviable interface and complex communications protocol to other users involving text and pictures.
<troy_s> persia: Which gets us back to bright wieners like you and ScottL_ actually blogging about those issues.
<troy_s> persia: And the research would bear you out.
 * persia still doesn't blog, and needs to go eat something now.
<troy_s> persia: LOL.
<troy_s> persia: http://www.sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
<troy_s> "Thus, it is possible that among the various factors that affect system usability in particular and system acceptability in general, interface aesthetics play a major role. Aesthetics affect people's perceptions of apparent usabilityâwhich, in turn, may influence longer term attitudes towards the system."
<troy_s> "Thus, it would appear that mainstream HCI (but, of course, see LaurelÂ [15,16]Â for a notable exception) either belittles the importance of aesthetics or ignores it altogether."
 * ScottL_ blogs but doesn't know that anyone knows about or reads it 
<troy_s> ScottL_: Where is your blog?
<ScottL_> http://dullass.blogspot.com/    but's its mainly just so that I can document stuff for myself so that I can remind myself what I did
<ScottL_> that's a quote from Shakespeare, before you ask about dullass
<ScottL_> dull ass - two words, not one (dullass)
<ScottL_> Cudgel thy brains no more about it, for your dull ass will not mend his pace with beating - Hamlet
<ScottL_> as I get more knowlege and comfortable as a Ubuntu Studio developer (in-training) I'll get around to offering opines on different aspect
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> ScottL_: Gravity. Just do it.
<ScottL_> persia: I tried to find a rather accessible tutorial for Plymouth - I failed    Google said, "No Plymouth for you!"    so I will not be providing anything, even by the weekend
 * persia digs a tutorial out of the archives
<persia> http://brej.org/blog/?cat=16
<ScottL_> hmmm, that's for Fedora, I'll read through and see if I think I can make it happen in Ubuntu
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-05
<ScottL> themuso, sorry to see you go :(
<TheMuso> ScottL: Thanks. I wish I had enough time and energy for lots of FOSS projects I care about, but alass this is not the case.
<persia> TheMuso: Thanks for making the resignation and reasons clear.  I'm not sure who can step into your shoes, but at least there is some time.
<TheMuso> persia: No problem. Re who fills my shoes, I am unsure either, however I will burn out if I don't cut something loose. The goings on in the text to speech field have muddy waters atm, and I want to giv emy full community time focus to them to clear those muddy waters. :)
<persia> Indeed.  That's an area that will benefit far more from your attention than here.
<persia> Debian Multimedia does an amazing job, and so while there's work to be done here, it's something many can learn to do.  Learning to do text to speech requires much deeper investigation.
<TheMuso> Yeah I agree.
<rlameiro> TheMuso: sad day :(
<rlameiro> but I hope that you acomplish everything you want
<rlameiro> :D
<TheMuso> rlameiro: For the project, possibly. For me, not so much. It would be a sadder day if I totally burned out.
<rlameiro> indeed
<rlameiro> TheMuso: I could helped more if my technical abilites were stronger
<rlameiro> but i think you are making a good choice
<rlameiro> I really need to learn to make deb packages :D
<persia> rlameiro: Actually, 90% of the work needed is precisely not making packages.
<rlameiro> well
<persia> It's stuff like making sure the installer works, and that the correct selection of software is installed.
<rlameiro> I do not programm in C yest
<persia> That's fine.
<rlameiro> and my graphic abilities are ..... welllll
<rlameiro> very bad
<rlameiro> but what is needed more at the moment
<rlameiro> maybe there is something that i can do
<rlameiro> or i would want to learn and do
<rlameiro> I did ported studio controls from libglade to gtkbuilder
<rlameiro> nothing spetial
<rlameiro> but i needed to study the gtkbuilder api to do it
<rlameiro> what can i do to help?
<persia> Right now?  Look for bugs in our packages.  Try to find fixes in Debian/Upstream/in other distros.
<persia> Apply, test.
<persia> Test daily images to make sure that they can install.  Test applications to make sure bugs are reported.
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> will look into that
<rlameiro> i am waiting for my second hdd to make a partition for iso testing only
<rlameiro> will test with usb audio interface and firewire
<rlameiro> and also the restricted modules for wifi on the RT kernel
<ScottL> TheMuso, thank you for working with me and sharing your experience.  I feel fortunate to have worked with you
<TheMuso> ScottL: Thanks, I appreciate your comments.
<ScottL> persia:  you around?
<persia> Usually.
<ScottL> trying to work on plymouth and I need to install gtk+-2.0=>2.12 but it appears to be uninstallable right now.  is there a definitive way to find out why?
<ScottL> this is in lucid btw
<persia> aptitude why-not is usually recommended
<ScottL> i shall try that..thanks :)
<ScottL> hah, i'm bonkers, sudo apt-get update worked
<ScottL> and i've built plymouth with x11 plugin support, but I had to do it with sudo make install and now things are getting weird
<persia> Hrm?
<persia> Did the base packages in lucid not work for you?
<persia> I think you're going at this the hard way :)
<ScottL> yeah, probably   lolz
<persia> are you in a lucid environment?
<ScottL> hold on
<ScottL_> persia, was putting son to bed and moving back upstairs
<ScottL_> i'm in lucid environment now
<persia> Cool.
<persia> So, in that environment, you should be able to just apt-get install any packages or development libraries you need, rather than compiling them.
<ScottL_> well, perhaps I misled you...i'm running the lucid alpha, it's not a pbuilder environment
<ScottL_> i see there is a plymouth-x11 package
<persia> Right, so apt-get install plymouth-x11 will install it, without you needing to build it.
<ScottL_> done
<ScottL_> but its still telling me to run plymouthd as root and i worry it will bork video
<persia> Great.  You've just saved yourself a build.  What's next on your shopping list?
<persia> It may well bork video.
<persia> plymouth tries to do that.
<persia> When it does, reboot.  Maybe to single-user, and change the config thing you changed back.
<ScottL_> oh cool, it's working this time :)
<persia> Excellent.  Easier this way, no?
<ScottL_> heh, well, yeah
<ScottL_> i had found a tutorial on ubuntu forums that mentioned about building the x11 support in a ppa and biased my thoughts that I would need to do it also
<ScottL_> couple that with the fedora tutorial and well, I went to town building it
<ScottL_> okay, i accomplished my goal to get plymouth working tonight and I get up in six or so hours, so I bid you goodnight
<jussi01> ScottL: ping
<jussi01> oh
<jussi01> he went bedways...
<jussi01> tomorrow then.
<ScottL> jussi01, okay, I was thinking of waiting another day just to give other people a chance to respond to my email before I contacted jdong again unless you think we should just go ahead and move forward
<jussi01> hrm, I wonder why we have 2 logbots...
<jussi01> ScottL: just mail the list, say something like, ok, looks like we go with ubuntu studio, unless anyone has any final issues? then say you will get it changed tomorrow if there is no objections on the list
<ScottL> jussi01, after I get the kids up and ready I'll send the email
<jussi01> :)
<ScottL> jussi01, I just had a thought...when I first read your email about the name change I was favoring using "Ubuntu Studio Support" and I was gong to actually argue for it but
<ScottL> the word "support" connotes something you need when something else it wrong and this would limit the scope, or perceived scope, of the forum
<ScottL> "ubuntu studio" is open to ALL discussions about studio and not just when something is broke
<jussi01> yes
<ScottL> persia, ubuntu studio plymouth splash proof of concept - http://fossmusicproject.org/public/ubuntustudio-plymouth-poc.png
<ScottL> it's not pretty but it tests well
<ScottL> jussi01, persia TheMuso : if anyone has an artistic direction we want to go with the plymouth theme please let me know and I'll work in that direction
<ScottL> for the current time (in the above screenshot) I just used the existing ubuntu_logo them and replaced a few things
<ScottL> but perhaps we want to stay the the "ubuntu studio" outline which fills in as progress bar usplash graphcis
<ScottL> (basically what we have now but translated to plymouth)
<ScottL> plymouth theme update:   http://fossmusicproject.org/public/ubuntustudio-plymouth-2.png
<ScottL> changed back to existing usplash artistic direction but notice the progress bar, it works well for a single, solid bar to be scaled and "unscaled" to fit
<ScottL> but I'll looking at the other existing themes to see if I can steal their progress bar code
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-06
<ScottL> perisa: ping
<ScottL> well, this is for anyone interested actually in a plymouth splash for lucid - i wanted to ask if he still thought we could get an UIFreeze exception
<ScottL> http://fossmusicproject.org/public/ubuntustudio-logo.ogv   - old style splash (karmic usplash) but using plymouth
<ScottL> http://fossmusicproject.org/public/ubuntustudio-rotate.ogv     - same as before but added rotation ubuntu studio icon
<ScottL> was trying to get the icon to spin like a coin spinning on a table but I'm having some trouble with the programming (i'm sure it can be done, just I'm pretty ignorant about these things and hacking isn't working for me on this one)
<ScottL> i spent most of yesterday and quite a bit of last night working on this, hell I even dreamed about it last night (that's how I came up with the rotating icon) but my brain is overwhelmed with the technical aspects
<ScottL> so if anyone has an artistic direction they would like to suggest, I would really appreciate it because I'm not feeling very artsy right now, just bogged down in the minutea
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-07
<persia> ScottL: I think we can get a freeze exception if we do it soon.  I don't have any guidance on artistic direction.  I think we have to get it right before we apply for the exception.  I also think we need to get the exception *before* 11th March, or it gets harder.
<ScottL_> persia, after reading the UIFreeze documentation I feel better about where we are, but we still need to get GDM and desktop wallpaper squared away
<ScottL_> since the things for which we are asking for the exception do not require translation or documentation then I guess it will be easier
<ScottL_> re: plymouth - since there hasn't really been any opinions on the examples I made then I will focus on the plymouth theme that resembles the previous Usplash
<persia> I thought I saw some ML traffic.
<persia> But at this point, I think we just need something.  Getting it perfect can wait.
<ScottL_> only one person really offered an opinion about the splash
<persia> Indeed.  Unless there's some reason to believe otherwise, I suggest that if you take silence as assent, you'll get more done :)
<ScottL_> LOL...heh, or apathy I suppose instead of assent, either way I want to make some adjustments to text/icon sizes and their locations
<ScottL_> kinda wish I had the new ubuntu font to see what it would look like (and see how I could twist it instead something different)
<ScottL_> next cycle I plan to be more on top of what is required and when so that we are a little more prepared
<persia> It doesn't exist yet.  You might ask in #ubuntu-artwork if anyone has the letters you're missing done.
<persia> Asking during the week is likely to get a better response.
<ScottL_> eh, i thought mark's blog said some important fontologist was commissioned to do it (sort of implied like it was already done)
<ScottL_> persia, is it worth taking the other plymouth themes that I have made, making tarball of them, and putting them on the wiki?
<persia> I don't think so :)
<persia> Might be useful if you were working with others to compare, etc.
<persia> But since there don't seem to be a lot of others, I don't see the point.
<persia> Also, for collaboration for code, rather than graphics, something like bzr might be better.
<ScottL_> oh, I thought maybe for future reference on later releases (kinda like a scrap book for inspiration)
<persia> Could do.  Putting stuff on the internet is generally better than leaving it on one's local machine.
<persia> But I still think bzr is likely a better place, rather than a tarball in the wiki.
<persia> At least as I understand it, most of a plymouth theme is code, rather than binary blobs.
<ScottL_> yeah, your right about code - I could always make my own bzr branch, i've wanted to learn about it but it can come later, i've enough things to keep me busy for a while
<ScottL_> yeah, it is...vast improvement from Usplash in that regard - no reall compiling
<ScottL_> i don't understand how it works at this point because you are using png files (unless png are already code)
 * ScottL_ does a quick wikipedia search on png now
<persia> png aren't code, but png can be loaded from code.
<persia> or embedded in code.
<ScottL_> ah, good (and png on wikipedia was too much to read right now)
<persia> heh
<ScottL_> hey, any idea on the direction of ubuntu studio with cory gone, luke leaving and luis effectively gone?
<persia> I don't have any, personally.
<ScottL_> hi troy_s , good post on your blog and very clean, crisp new theme also :)
<persia> I've always enjoyed working with studio, but more because I care about the audio production applications than because I care about studio, as such.
<troy_s> ScottL_: LOL. I have no clue what those things mean.
<persia> I know a fair bit about flavours, and can help with that stuff too, but someone needs to stand up and provide direction, if there is to be some.
<troy_s> ScottL_: It's great getting called a douche though. Then I realized I should likely qualify what a douche means to the foreign folks.
<ScottL_> troy_s, LOL...there's a corollary there - if you're not called a douche, you're not doing something right
<troy_s> ScottL_: Well a huge part of me actually doesn't like the whole "label people as troll and throw out their comment blah blah'
<troy_s> ScottL_: It's an education issue methinks.
<troy_s> mehopes.
<troy_s> ScottL_: There are way too many smart people around to think that, after laying the various complexities out on the table, won't get it. At least that has been my experience. It seems the tides turn slightly.
<ScottL_> persia, maybe i'm asking too much but I hope stochastic can provide some direction, I'll certainly do what I can to support it
<ScottL_> troy_s, I have to admit even though I'm not a stupid person you are just too well read and versed in art and graphics for me to understand everything that you write
<ScottL_> troy_s, it's like reading 1984 (the novel, nineteen eighty-four if you like), each time I reread it I see (or understand) something I didn't before
<troy_s> ScottL_: Ugh. That means it is fail. 
<ScottL_> troy_s, i'm not a visual kind of guy...well, in an artsy way
<troy_s> ScottL_: It's all pretty basic stuff, but I likely muddy it up with old habits.
<troy_s> ScottL_: Bah. Rubbish. That's part of the whole point. The _average_ viewership is extremely adept at spotting westernized language.
<troy_s> ScottL_: You may not know what Phi is, but the Renaissance was _SO_ huge that you can likely point to it on paper if I said 'where is it?'
<troy_s> ScottL_: And _that_ is the point. It is a language. It has an implied audience. And it is used to communicate things to people. It certainly has new challenges for a culture that spans so many cultures. The whole 'ignore the audience like we are dealing with north america' is a different can of worms.
<ScottL_> persia, I just hope the whole thing doesn't collapse upon itself in a pile from ennui
<ScottL_> persia, I was talking to cory the other day and he mentioned that his opinion was that maybe studio should be packages added from PPA
<ScottL_> troy_s, language is beautiful, i can not only appreciate its subtlety more as I age but I can please myself with my own subtlety more and more often
<persia> ScottL_: I really don't see the point of using a PPA rather than the archives.  The main benefit of a PPA is that more people can upload, but with ArchiveReorg, if we get a few people who are good at uploading, we can grant them access to upload studio stuff in the main archives directly.
<ScottL_> troy_s, and you are correct about the audience - too often people don't bridge that divide to unfamiliar audiences
<persia> My worry about using a PPA is that it means that the rest of Ubuntu suffers.
 * persia generally doesn't like PPAs because they don't foster collaboration
<troy_s> ScottL_: Hrm. Do you worry about an audience outside of scope? I don't think we should. That's part of choosing an audience. God look at the fricking forum thread on the post.
<troy_s> ScottL_: I was basically attacked for using language that I use.
<troy_s> ScottL_: Which is fine, but the point one poster makes was "Well should he 'dumb down' the language so it translates better?"
<troy_s> ScottL_: And then you get into words that don't translate at all. It's just a mess.
<ScottL_> persia, his comment (i think) were driven by the kernel issue, the rigidity of the system stifles his desires at it were
<troy_s> ScottL_: I resign myself to accepting I won't ever be able to read German comments without floundering through half baked translations at Google. So be it.
<ScottL_> troy_s, or words that don't convey the correct meaning
<troy_s> ScottL_: Tatazumai
<ScottL_> troy_s, that's were I think language is beautiful, the choosing of the proper word
<troy_s> ScottL_: Good luck figuring out what that one means.
<persia> ScottL_: The rigidity of the system is an artifact of perception.  There's no reason we can't put anything we want in the main archive.  We haven't historically because nobody maintains it (including ourselves).  For a while, there was a "linux-rt" package in the archives, but it didn't get good updates.
<ScottL_> troy_s, i was forced to find "otherling" on wikipedia
<troy_s> ScottL_: That's a huge one.
<troy_s> ScottL_: I always balked at it in fine arts school. But it just makes me aware as to how powerful it really is.
<troy_s> ScottL_: We want inclusion, but you can't see the exclusion. You can assume it isn't there, but the means - the agency - might be so horribly broken that it can never be there.
<persia> ScottL_: In more detail, the perception of the rigidity of the system stems from "us vs. them" thinking, rather than a holistic perception of the set of people contributing to the wider project.  There is no real hierarchy, nor any firm limits on what can be achieved.
<troy_s> persia: Yer too fricking smart to really be around these parts.
 * persia wishes humans were better at large-community thinking, but understands the biological impertivies inherent in the development of the limitations
<persia> troy_s: I want to make the world a better place.  I think that having a free body of code that can be used for any purpose is part of that.  I think that Ubuntu has a better social model than Debian (when it works).  I don't know of a better place to try to achieve this (admittedly narrow) goal.
 * ScottL_ thinks humans should read Jono's book then we would all thinking communitively
<persia> Um, no.
<persia> But it might help a little :)
<ScottL_> i was kidding about that last bit
<ScottL_> although I heard there was a drinking game involving his book, you drink everytime he wrote "community"
<troy_s> ScottL_: Yeah. I'll pass on that Alex. ;)
<ScottL_> troy_s, inclusion vs exclusion, yeah, i can see that
<troy_s> ScottL_: It isn't easy to achieve inclusion.
<troy_s> ScottL_: There is a fantastic vid at TED on things like that. You hope for freedom. But then you realize that a group of women formed a Bulimia support group to support people in their pursuit of Bulima and Anorexia. At some point, the absolutist belief in freedom butts into the reality of 'Wait a minute, that isn't healthy'
<ScottL_> i like Jono though and am impressed not only by his taste in music but also that he published his book under CC
<troy_s> ScottL_: And practically speaking, by failing to address an audience you are othering implicitly.
<ScottL_> rereading persia's comment to troy_s - "I want to make the world a better place"
<ScottL_> i can't really say explicitely why I am helping ubuntu studio, there are so many reasons but not a primary one
<ScottL_> i'm geeky and I dig this stuff (I use AutoCAD at work and I still type most commands rather than pick a button or find the menu - translates well to CLI)
<persia> Well, from a marketing perspective, the concept of audience definition typically inherently creates separation: they key is to always define audience positively, e.g. people who like cats and other people vs. people who don't dislike cats
<troy_s> persia: Absolutely.
<ScottL_> I like helping, I like organizing things, I like effecting
<troy_s> persia: But the more worrying part is that by _avoiding_ to deal with the issue of audience, you create a half baked illusion that you aren't excluding. Which again, begs othering.
<ScottL_> so basically what I'm saying is that this is all about me apparently
<troy_s> ScottL_: LOL
<persia> troy_s: Indeed.  Such is the power of propaganda.
 * persia really likes propaganda, and studied it at uni some : it's an incredibly powerful tool
<ScottL_> but I really dig the fact that these things are soo available to anyone (things = audio apps) and want to make sure that it continues
<troy_s> persia: Personally, I am wondering that either you say 'OK this is bland because we are going to make it neutral for everyone" is better than sort of half baked attempts to add some sort of weak style to things (specifically talking about Lucid)
<troy_s> persia: Just make the fricking thing middle grey and be done with it.
<persia> Simply by failing to define the axioms of one's argument, one can draw a single conclusion that people believe to be correct even when they have different base axioms, simply because they assume you think as they do.
<troy_s> ScottL_: That's where you can have a pretty interesting impact in a Lessig sense.
<ScottL_> I've read quite a bit about WWII, Germany mainly, reading some Russian history now - now, that was some propoganda
<troy_s> persia: Bingo.
<persia> troy_s: I disagree.  I think the solution is to define the points of differentiation, create a template that allows both to coexist well, and encourage the strongest believers in each to help keep their model working.
<troy_s> persia: I believe that was the whole fatal flaw with the original path - everyone took the meaning, warped it to their own reality, and then wondered why Ubuntu never actually outwardly showed what was in their heads.
<persia> troy_s: That forces the apparently competing groups to cooperate.
<ScottL_> troy_s, that's what I meant earlier - I don't know Lessig (but I'm happy to know about him now)
<persia> The way that solution is implemented in Ubuntu is flavours.  Unfortunately, few are willing to put in the effort to make flavours work well.
<troy_s> ScottL_: He's pretty damn clever. Watch his presentation at the Open Video Conference.
<ScottL_> persia, in which way to they tend to fail?
<ScottL_> Is Lessig the one that Jono was talking about?  I think he had a new book out, apparently Jono even follows him on twitter or facebook or whatever social media is fancy now
<persia> ScottL_: Please rephrase the question.
<troy_s> Side note, I need to figure out how to float the header far left so I can make it clickable
<ScottL_> persia, how would more effort make flavours work well?
<troy_s> It stinks not knowing how to do that.
<troy_s> Gr.
<ScottL_> persia, i realize that is a rather open ended question, pardon my ignorance
<ScottL_> persia, you can certainly keep your response topical or bullet points
<persia> ScottL_: Basically, it takes nearly as much effort to make any flavour work as any other.  Most sets of folks who don't like the defaults in Ubuntu Desktop don't put in the levels of effort put in by the Ubuntu Desktop folk to support their variation.
<ScottL_> troy_s, yeah, Jono was reading "On Lessig" a while back (thanks Google)
<persia> The Kubuntu Desktop/Netbook crew is a notable exception.
<ScottL_> persia, that is what I thought you were saying
<ScottL_> to be honest, I'm almost surprised that studio manages to stay an "official" derivative for the same reason
<persia> This is *not* a derivative.
<persia> It is a flavour.
<persia> The distinction is incredibly important.
<persia> A derivative adds or changes stuff shipped by default in an uncooperative way.
<persia> A flavour interacts cooperatively with the rest of the larger project to help keep everything in good shape.
<ScottL_> oh, like Linux Mint is a derivative then?
<persia> So, for example, lots of people use the software Studio cares about without having installed Studio.
<persia> That's the most popular one I know of, yes.
<ScottL_> a good example of language and choosing the proper word ;)
<ScottL_> which i didn't do
<ScottL_> persia, troy_s, I enjoyed talking with you two but I need to go, goodnight (or goodnight as the case may be)
<ScottL_> errrr (or good day)
<troy_s> Adieu
<ScottL> troy_s, are you around?
<troy_s> ScottL: Here now. Sup?
 * akirad is away: Sono occupato
<ScottL> troy_s, you mentioned Phi last night and I completely missed it
<ScottL> troy_s, the golden ration, it's also a math thing, use to determine Fibonnaci numbers
<troy_s> ScottL: Yes. Most important value in Westernized aesthetic.
<ScottL> s/ration/ratio
<troy_s> ScottL: Yep. Leonardo Da Pisa's real discovery.
<troy_s> ScottL: If you have to boil down say 700 years of *Westernized* art and design theory (Most of Euro in that) it boils down to that number.
<ScottL> troy_s, i'm a structural designer (well, actually now department supervisor) and a freaking math geek so I'm down with weird things like Fibonnaci's numbers which lead me to Phi
<troy_s> ScottL: Rule of Thirds is a rough approximation.
<ScottL> troy_s, the human bodies porporitions reflect it too, The Last Supper painting, the famous Greek structures
<troy_s> ScottL: Some try to see it everywhere, which it is not. But reality is that most of the Ren buried it into every picture - including aspect ratios of the pictures.
<troy_s> ScottL: Ype.
<troy_s> ScottL: Although the Greek is debatable.
<troy_s> ScottL: Where do you draw your margin to see it. Random numbers are everywhere depending on how you divide the math up.
<ScottL> troy_s, and Phi is also in nature, the conch shell, bees combs, pine cones...it's mad crazy
<ScottL> troy_s, I might just try to make an Ubuntu Studio with Phi...i'll have to think about it
<ScottL> troy_s, are you sure you don't have any design philosophy book you might recommend to a novice?
<troy_s> ScottL: Erm. Not philosophy. Try Jim Krause's Design Basics Index.
<troy_s> ScottL: Actually, this is likely what you are thinking perhaps... http://books.google.ca/books?id=fbRz8qQHbOwC&q=visual+literacy&dq=visual+literacy&cd=3
<troy_s> ScottL: That one is very good.
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, that looks good...i'm extremely ignorant about graphic arts and have little to no talent for it, generally i'm a hack for most things
<troy_s> ScottL: The latter is a good one because it sort of approaches it like school - it has some exercises etc. Much in the same vein as Andy Rutledge's 'quiz'.
<troy_s> ScottL: You probably already saw it... http://www.andyrutledge.com/creativity-is-not-design-test-2.php
<ScottL> hi fritz
<FritzFido> Hi all, first time here - came to see what is going on after some e-mail discussions on studio-dev mailing list
<ScottL> glad to see you here....it's a little slow right now, but hang around a while though
<ScottL> hi akirad 
<FritzFido> Ok, I'll hang around
<ScottL> if you have questions just ask, but please be prepared to possibly wait a bit (especially on weekends) as people aren't always actively watching the IRC channel, but usually you get an answer eventually
<FritzFido> I sent a question to the mailing list earlier about when there are likely to be downloadable studio builds where one can test whether how well the integration of PA and jack works 
<FritzFido> I thought I might get an answer more directly here.
<ScottL> FritzFido, when TheMuso gets back on line he might be the one to answer that
<FritzFido> Scott, you were asking where to see the new theme - look here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand
<FritzFido> I was just looking at the new ubuntu splash screen there and wondering if we couldn't keep it much the same - just change "ubunt" to "ubuntu studio" and put the studio logo in place of the small ubuntu logo
<ScottL> FritzFido, the word ubuntu in that splash screen is a png image and apparently the font used is not completed yet :(
<FritzFido> That's cheating!
<ScottL> FritzFido, if someone were to have another design (or font suggestion) we would certainly welcome the input, if that "someone" were you or someone you know that would be even better
<FritzFido> Cheers, I'm off now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-28
<ScottL> ailo_,  unless we have a -lowlatency kernel that we can put into a PPA for natty then i don't think we can implement it for natty
<ScottL> unless you see another option
<ailo_> ScottL: I'm not even sure about the PPA at this point. I don't know what the plan is, really. 
<ScottL> but keep in mind that our firewire users would like an -rt kernel as well, which would have to be kept in a PPA
<ailo_> If we add the -lowlatency through PPA, no problem to implement that. If and when we have an -rt kernel there as well, easy to put that in too.
<ScottL> ailo_, let's say then that unless paultag has other ideas that given the late date in this cycle and that it's not in the repos we skip the -lowlatency kernel for natty
<ScottL> getting the other stuff done will be a huge improvement :)
<ScottL> hell, it will be functional again
<ScottL> TheMuso, persia: can i get your opinion on several older bugs?
<ScottL> there are several older bugs, some even dating back to 7.04, that i seriously doubt we will fix, would it be improper to simply mark them as "won't fix"?
<TheMuso> ScottL: If they are from 7.04, just mark them won't fix, tell the reporters that feisty/gutsy are EOL, adn to test with the latest release, maverick.
<mondi> anyone can help me
<mondi> i have a problem opening computer or any disks
<paultag> scott-work: dude, we can get it in
<paultag> scott-work: it's bugfix only
<paultag> scott-work: it's early in the FF, and it's not a new package
<paultag> scott-work: it's ripe for a FFe :)
<paultag> we need to just crank it out and get it sponsored 
<scott-work> paultag:  do you have an idea when it might be ready?  I'll fill out the FFe then
<paultag> scott-work: I have no idea, ailo has been rocking it, so I've stayed back
<paultag> scott-work: he's less then 2 hours away from finishing it, I think (from what I've seen)
<paultag> scott-work: if he can kill that off, then I can whip the package into shape and give it an upload to REVU
<scott-work> i thought REVU was for new packages?
<paultag> oh shucks
<paultag> I think you might be right scott-work 
<paultag> god, that's stupid
<paultag> mentors.debian.net is awesome
<paultag> then debdiff it is
<scott-work> paultag: wow!  http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq           http://mentors.debian.net/cgi-bin/welcome  both look awesome
<scott-work> i will have to look into them more
<paultag> scott-work: whenever you do anything (new package / updated package) you dput to mentors.debian.net, then send out an email to the list :)
<paultag> unless you have a mentor
<paultag> then just do whatever, I guess :)
<scott-work> but in this case, we are updating a package that is _only_ in ubuntu, will the debian mentors help with this?
<paultag> scott-work: nah, d-m is of no use here :)
<paultag> BBL, school
<ailo_> scott-work: It'll be more than 2 hours og work for me, but yes. It's not far from being finished. I still haven't found out how to work out problems with packaging, which is something I have almost as little experience with as python coding, so it's hard to say when.
<ailo_> The package won't build, probably because there are some settings that need to be straightened out. I've done my best to see what I need to edit (using the original ubuntustudio-controls package as base), but I'm clearly missing something.
<ailo_> scott-work: paultag: I would prefer the new -controls to use python only, but to have things wrapped up fast, I will need to use zenity to complement the shell commands I'm using, cause the shell is freezing up the app when executing the commands. A zenity prograss dialog will at leas show the user something is happening.
<ailo_> scott-work: paultag: So, if someone can help me with packaging, and I add the zenity thing, I'd say we can be ready within a day even.
<paultag> ailo_: I'm good to package at the drop of a hat. If it's 90% there ( no install scripts or anything ) I can kill it off
<paultag> zenity is not the worst case
<ailo_> paultag: It's all there in the git repo.  The old package and the source to my stuff. There are more stuff that should end up in /usr/share/ubuntustudio-controls than in the original, otherwise it's the same deal.
<ailo_> paultag: Just changing the changelog now
<ailo_> paultag: How do I set my details, so they end up in the changelog?
<paultag> ailo_: set DEBFULLNAME / DEBEMAIL ?
<paultag> ailo_: and you should use dch :)
<ailo_> paultag: Ok, so the changelog is ok I hope. I'll finish the program within 24 hours. Will you need Natty in order to build the package?
<ailo_> paultag: I really don't know what things need to be edited in the package if we are to use the one that is already laid out. You can make your own from scratch, if you want to of course.
<paultag> ailo_: I have a pbuilder
<paultag> ailo_: it's OK. Paste the changelog, I'll take a look
<ailo_> paultag: http://paste.ubuntu.com/573488/
<paultag> ailo_: it looks OK so far. The close syntax also looks off. It should be: New release has a more robust interface, and small updates (LP: #nnnnn).
<ailo_> paultag: The urgency could be changed? And maybe add that we have changed the program a bit.
<paultag> ailo_: you should always describe what you're closing and why
<paultag> ailo_: no, low is good
<paultag> ailo_: naw, debian/changelog is for debian stuff, nto the project as a whole
<paultag> ailo_: you're also the only commiter, so you can remove your name in []
<paultag> see crimsun's commit
<ailo_> Ok
<ailo_> paultag: So, you never worked with Egg?
<ailo_> I think this is Egg/debian packaging
<ailo_> The original, that is
<paultag> ailo_: aye
<paultag> ailo_: for lintco, never anything serious
<ailo_> paultag: http://paste.ubuntu.com/573492/ It's in the repo now.
<paultag> ailo_: killer
<paultag> ailo_: whoh, interesting way of storing stuff in the git branch
<paultag> ailo_: have you looked into git-buildpackage and pristine-tar ?
<paultag> ailo_: you also have issues -- http://pastebin.com/CGb5uGCa
<paultag> I'll try a build
<ailo_> paultag, If you try a build, at least you get a new tar I guess, which you can move somewhere else and start over.
<paultag> ailo_: no no
<paultag> ailo_: it's OK -- just use pritine-tar to stash it in it's own branch
<paultag> ailo_: and you don't need to track the dsc
<paultag> (and you have some policy issues)
<ailo_> paultag: That's the kind of stuff I know nothing about :)
<paultag> ailo_: i can spend some time after I get back from the Gym patching this, if you want
<ailo_> paultag: Just building it gave me an error, where the python files would end up in folder for 2.7, but the package builder were looking for them in 2.6
<ailo_> paultag: It would be great if you straightened the packaging out. Then we can finish this pretty quickly I hope
<paultag> ailo_: awesome. Rock on. I'll send you a git-format-patch by tonight
<ailo_> paultag: Going jogging myself. Catch you later.
<paultag> ailo_: cheers!
<scott-work> ailo_, paultag: both you guys rock! \m/
<paultag> scott-work: <3
<paultag> We've got you covered, dude
<paultag> ailo_: I almost have it in shampe
<paultag> shape *
<paultag> running some tests / reviews
<paultag> whoh, found some issues :)
<paultag> ailo_: http://git.pault.ag/?a=summary&p=ubuntustudio-controls <-- I've cleaned most of the lintian issues out. It's in decent form with a prist-tar branch
<paultag> ailo_: git clone git://pault.ag/paultag/ubuntustudio-controls.git  <-- so you can take a look before you merge
<scott-work> paultag: will we be able to provide a debdiff for this once it's all done?
<paultag> scott-work: I can do that now, but there's one outstanding issue on the deb that I'm not happy with. Just having ailo_ check out changes 
<paultag> scott-work: but yes, 100%
<paultag> scott-work: it's in "OK" shape right now, one hell of a lot better then when we started. Not perfect yet, but OK.
<scott-work> paultag: sweet, don't need it immediately though
<paultag> scott-work: understood :)
<ailo_> paultag: So it's ready to be built now?
<paultag> ailo_: it can be built, and it's clean ( save the gksudo call in the .desktop )
<paultag> that throws an error, but I added a dep on gksu, so it's "safe"
<ailo_> paultag, right. Can we remove that? We should not run the app as sudo.
<paultag> ailo_: Oh! Yes! Please!
<paultag> Let me do that ;)
<ailo_> paultag: Ok. Just came back from a second lap. I'll finish the zenity bit. I'll still need someone to review/test the app before we can assume it's fine to be released.
<paultag> ailo_: Oh OK. Well, if you want to change it, that's fine :)
<paultag> ailo_: I also pushed the tarball into prist-tar 
<paultag> ailo_: so beware of that :)
<ailo_> paultag: I will only be changing the glade file and the main source file hopefully. Removing the -lowlatency option and adding a zenity progress bar. How about dependencies? How does that work?
<paultag> ailo_: pull my branch
<paultag> ailo_: it will be in good shape :)
<ailo_> paultag: Did you change the .desktop yet? I did "git pull", but it says, already up to date.
<paultag> ailo_: no, because you have to kill the tag (or bump the major number) repack and fix :)
<paultag> ailo_: and I'm super busy right now, getting ready for klass
<ailo_> paultag: Alright. I expect this will take a few hours for me to complete, so I'll ping you when you can pull the one base on your package.
<ailo_> based*
<paultag> ailo_: rock on, dude!
<paultag> ailo_: remember to use: `lintian -iIE --pedantic' to test your deb and dsc :)
<ailo_> paultag: Hmm, let's see if it helps me. I expect you won't have too much difficulty fixing it once it's done. What's the build command for building the package btw?
<paultag> ailo_: my workflow is as follows (might be a bit backwards) -- dpkg-buildpackage -S, pbuilder-dist <dist> *.dsc, git-buildpackage --git-tag, pristine-tar commit ../<package orig tarball> <release id>
<paultag> ailo_: I also do a review on most of that as I go, check for unneeded stuff, warnings, errors, info tags, all that
<ailo_> paultag: Thanks. I'll try that.
<paultag> ailo_: rock on
<scott-work> paultag and ailo_ :  i'll be happy to test it when it's ready, i've got an updated natty install waiting
<ailo_> bash scripting is not all that straight forward sometimes :/
<ailo_> paultag: I think I need to add two small bash scripts to be able to do what I want. What's the policy about scripts? Where can they be kept, if they are a part of the program, but not meant to be executed by anything else?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-01
<paultag> ailo_: totally fine. Just put them in the lib/ folder :)
<ailo_> paultag: Then we need to add /usr/lib/ubuntustudio-controls to the package, right? I'll start testing my setup this way.
<paultag> ailo_: great :)
<ailo_> paultag: I got some strange bash problems
<ailo_> paultag: http://paste.ubuntu.com/573745/
<holstein> http://holstein.shacknet.nu:8227/stream.ogg
<holstein> :)
<ailo_> paultag: The arguments up until $9 seem to work. I tried using $*, but I couldn't get it working.
<ailo_> I use less arguments, and that seems to work..
<ailo_> paultag: I'm done. Make sure to put all the bash scripts into /usr/lib/ubuntustudio and remove the gksudo from the .Desktop. Then I think we are ready to build and test the app. I was unable to build it for some reason.
<ailo_> /usr/lib/ubuntustudio-controls*
<paultag> ailo_: odd. I'll check on it when I get back online
<paultag> ailo_: just sat down at work
<ailo_> paultag, Did you have a chance to look at the packaging?
<paultag> ailo_: yeah, you did not include anything in pritine-tar
<paultag> ailo_: I can't build it if there are no tar.gz files :)
<paultag> ailo_: it looks ok by eye, but I can't test
<ailo_> paultag, I must admit I don't know what the pritine-tar is. I only added some files into the folder the way you laid it out.
<ailo_> paultag, Aside from editing the source, I added *.sh files, which we agreed should be put in /usr/lib/ubuntustudio-controls. I would set it up if I knew how.
<paultag> 19:45 < paultag> ailo_: my workflow is as follows (might be a bit backwards) --  dpkg-buildpackage -S, pbuilder-dist <dist> *.dsc,  git-buildpackage --git-tag, pristine-tar commit ../<package  orig tarball> <release id>
<paultag> ailo_: ;)
<paultag> ailo_: pristine-tar commit ../package-tarball.tar.gz release-id
<ailo_> paultag, It fails for me already at the first command
<paultag> ailo_: did you not install pritine-tar ?
<ailo_> paultag, Ok :). IÃ¤ll try that
<paultag> :)
<ailo_> paultag, http://paste.ubuntu.com/574155/
<paultag> ailo_: I don't care about the build :)
<paultag> ailo_: all you need to do is the pristine-tar stuff so I have a .tar.gz to use :)
<paultag> ailo_: how is it going? Need more help? pristine-tar can be picky
<ailo_> paultag, I'm getting some errors.
<paultag> ailo_: let's see em :)
<ailo_> paultag: http://paste.ubuntu.com/574160/
<paultag> ailo_: well don't commit against master :)
<paultag> ailo_: what's the version? 0.5.0 ?
<paultag> ailo_: it should also be in the .orig.tar.gz format
<ailo_> paultag, That's what it should be. If it isn't, we should change it
<paultag> ailo_: that's what what should be?
<paultag> ailo_: it uses the "pristine-tar" branch to not cloud up our master
<ailo_> paultag: The version for this app. In that format 0.5.0. I used 0.5 earlier.
<paultag> ailo_: and it looks like that .tar.gz is not existing :)
<ailo_> paultag, I'm not clear on what I'm doing, so I didn't realize I need to create the tar first
<paultag> ailo_: oh. yes :)
<paultag> ailo_: be sure to exclude .git and debian
<paultag> be right back
<ailo_> paultag, So what should I commit against?
<paultag> ailo_: ok, let's say I'm working on fluxbox
<paultag> and I've just finished work on 1.3.1~dfsg1-1
<paultag> I run:
<paultag> pristine-tar commit ../fluxbox_1.3.1~dfsg1.orig.tar.gz 1.3.1~dfsg1-1
<paultag> pristine-tar commit ../fluxbox_1.3.1~dfsg1.orig-additional-themes.tar.gz 1.3.1~dfsg1-1
<paultag> after, of course I run `git tag -a 1.3.1~dfsg1-1' (or g-b-p does that for me)
<paultag> git tag
<paultag> debian/1.1.1+dfsg1-1
<paultag> git branch
<paultag> * master pristine-tar
<paultag> ailo_: so you should always track the prist-tar against the tag ID
<paultag> in my case -- debian/1.1.1+dfsg1-1
<ailo_> paultag: Ok. Thanks. I'm just learning to use git. I don't have a tag.Is it: git tag create <tag>? What would you recommend?
<paultag> :)
<ailo_> I'll gladly adapt to your workflow. Just remember, I have barely any experience with all of this, so I will probably only  know bits and pieces about most things.
<paultag> ailo_: git tag -a debian/1.3.1~dfsg1-1
<paultag> ailo_: actually, if you use git-buildpackage, it will tag for you
<ailo_> paultag, "fatal: 'debian/1.3.1~dfsg1-1' is not a valid tag name" ?
<paultag> ailo_: yeah, because you're using my version ID from my fluxbox example
<paultag> ailo_: is ubuntustudio-controls version 1.3.1~dfsg1-1?
<paultag> my concern lies with the dfsg part :)
<ailo_> paultag, Well, what would you recommend? 0.5.0 is enough for me.
<paultag> ailo_: 0.5.0 sounds perfect
<ailo_> paultag, Ok, so I was able to commit. Now I just push? 
<paultag> ailo_: yes, be sure to push your new prisine-tar branch as well
<paultag> ( git push --all )
<ailo_> paultag: If I got this correctly, there's now a new branch called "pristine-tar"
<paultag> ailo_: yes :)
<paultag> ailo_: git branch
<paultag> ailo_: does it show?
<ailo_> paultag, Yep.
<paultag> great
<paultag> ailo_: did you git push --all ?
<paultag> From git://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls * [new branch]      pristine-tar -> origin/pristine-tar
<paultag> great
<ailo_> paultag: Don't be afraid to talk to me as if I'm stupid. I really don't know that much about development yet.
<paultag> ailo_: not at all. I refuse to do something so ignorant as talk "down" to someone :)
<paultag> we all need to learn
<paultag> sometimes you just need a push
<paultag> ailo_: I think you did something wrong :/
<paultag> $ pristine-tar checkout ../ubuntustudio-controls_0.5.0.orig.tar.gz
<paultag> fatal: Path 'ubuntustudio-controls_0.5.0.orig.tar.gz.delta' does not exist in 'refs/heads/pristine-tar'
<paultag> pristine-tar: git show refs/heads/pristine-tar:ubuntustudio-controls_0.5.0.orig.tar.gz.delta failed
<paultag> although, I see a tar (with an invalid name)
<paultag> $ pristine-tar checkout ../ubuntustudio-controls-0.5.0.orig.tar.gz
<paultag> fatal: not a tree object
<paultag> tar: This does not look like a tar archive
<paultag> tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors
<paultag> ailo_: what did you commit?
<paultag> Here's how it should look:
<paultag> $ pristine-tar checkout ../fluxbox_1.3.1~dfsg1.orig.tar.gz 
<paultag> pristine-tar: successfully generated ../fluxbox_1.3.1~dfsg1.orig.tar.gz
<ailo_> paultag: So I needed to do a checkout before the commit? As I said, I really don't know what I'm doing with these git programs. So far, I've only been using the most basic commands.
<ailo_> paultag: I manually copied the contents of your folder to my git repo folder. Should I use your git folder instead?
<ailo_> paultag, I tried cloning my repo, and got the same result as you
<ailo_> paultag: I'm reading http://www.digipedia.pl/man/doc/view/pristine-tar.1/ to get some info on this. 
<ailo_> paultag: If you could provide me with a step by step instruction on how to do this, I could start from the beginning.
<paultag> ailo_: sorry, took a shower
<paultag> ailo_: yeah, I can do that. Let me paste a session
<paultag> ailo_: it looks like the gksudo call is still in there
<paultag> ailo_: ubuntustudio-controls.desktop
<paultag> I'll fix it.
<ailo_> paultag, Yes. I probably made a Desktop file once before, so I don't remember how to do that. All I've changed really, besides editing the source and the glade-file, I added two shell scripts.
<ailo_> paultag, I did poke around with the Debiana files a few days ago, before you started working with it, but I haven't changed anythings since, except for the changelog
<ailo_> paultag, I feel the Application is ready, save some editing on the Glade file, at least for testing. Don't expect anything to change. 
<paultag> ailo_: http://pastebin.com/qKcMXh2H
<paultag> ailo_: in it's current shape, I'd rate it a "C". There are lots of issues, but all either Info, or Pedantic
<paultag> #
<paultag> I: ubuntustudio-controls source: debian-watch-file-is-missing
<paultag> that's a bit of an issue
<paultag> I: ubuntustudio-controls: copyright-with-old-dh-make-debian-copyright
<paultag> that one sucks, should be fixed, I think
<paultag> same with I: python-meminfo-total: copyright-with-old-dh-make-debian-copyright
<paultag> P: python-meminfo-total: no-upstream-changelog # can be ignored, that's an ubuntuism
<paultag> in it's current shape, it might pass, but it's not something I'd really put my name on :/
<ailo_> paultag, I'm really totally ignorant about the debian package files, so I can't form much of an opinion around that. I'm only concerned with the app itself, and if it's ok to use. I use one file from the original ubuntustudio-controls, and that is meminfo_total.py. So, it's not a complete rewrite.
<paultag> mmhum
<ailo_> paultag, I used the original package, but we could always make a new, fresh one
<ailo_> paultag, also the name I guess is copyrighted
<paultag> ailo_: for ubuntustudio-controls?
<paultag> ailo_: yes, it's a package for ubuntustudio, by ubuntustudio. who cares? :)
<ailo_> paultag, What problems do you see with getting the package built? Should we make one from scratch?
<paultag> ailo_: the package builds fine
<paultag> ailo_: there are some info level "warnings" on the package's meta-data
<ailo_> paultag, So it's only about copyright and changelog?
<paultag> ailo_: yes
<ailo_> paultag, I seem to be unable to build the package. I would just like to get that working so we can test it and get some opinions from ScottL and whoever else is interested.
<ailo_> paultag, About the copyright, I don't mind if we give that to the original author, who I guess is the person who has the right to the name at least. Don't know much about that tbh.
<paultag> ailo_: just use DEP5, and don't shy, if there's code in there by you, please credit yourself or it's a legal issue
<ailo_> paultag, As for the application itself, I don't like the shell scripts. That's my only objection. I would rather use python, or c for that, which is beyond my knowledge at the moment
<ailo_> paultag, There's been some big plans for this app, but so far, it doesn't include much that could serve as a good base for further development, not in it's current form at least. I'm feeling, that with time running out and everything, we either get this app in pretty soon, or leave it 'til next release. I'd like to be able to focus on other things too :P
<paultag> me too, but let's just get it in natty
<ailo_> paultag, About packaging, 1/2 year could do me a lot of good, learning more about that, as well as getting more comfortable with repo administration.
<paultag> mmhum
<ailo_> Everything I'm doing now is for the first time pretty much
<paultag> good :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-02
<ailo_> paultag, Is it ok if you keep the package part of this app, and I just provide you with the source? I feel there's too many things that are over my head at the moment, which will require many days of study to master.
<ailo_> paultag, I think it would be better you took control of the packagin completely, since I'm just likely to mess that up.
<ailo_> paultag, Before we decide to upload the package, we still need to try it out I think. 
<ailo_> paultag, How about setting up something a little more structured for the next release? Maybe you could set up the workflow for that?
<paultag> ailo_: I'll fix the rest of the issues on this package when I get my uni work done :)
<paultag> ailo_: then we can get our FFe and try and upload.
<paultag> hopefully persia can help, once it's in decent shape
<ailo_> paultag, The app is not totally done yet. There's still some facelifting on the glade file, and I'd like to do some testing too  before we decide anything.
<paultag> OK. 
<paultag> ailo_: let me know when I need to fix up the package. it's clean to test with right now
<ailo_> paultag, It would be great if we could just have a package to install to test it. 
<paultag> ailo_: it's already there, the issues are policy issues
<ailo_> paultag, Could you build it and give us a link?
<paultag> ailo_: I am not at home, but I can put it up on metatron.pault.ag, if you need it right now
<ailo_> paultag, No immediate hurry of course. Just so we can have a go with it and see if it works :P
<paultag> k
<paultag> it's still building :)
<scott-work> new jack is released...well, a new version of jack1 is released, which honestly is a little less bit exciting to me actually, but still...yay!
<scott-work> wow, and nedko already has a patch for it for d-bus support :)
<ailo__> paultag, So, I was thinking about a workflow for a future development of the ubuntustudio-controls. I'm learning more about git at the moment. Using it for my own projects and messing around with it. We should create a common repo for that, no? We might need someone to lead the development. Would you be interested? I can see myself adding to it, at least. We should check with falktx too to see what plans he had for his own 
<ailo__> control application. What do you think?
<paultag> ailo__: sure. sounds about right
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-03
<holstein> hey ScottL 
<holstein> DeusQain was just asking about how to get cinelerra included in the next release
<DeusQain> that I was.
<holstein> DeusQain: you want it in there by default?
<DeusQain> One of my site members directed me to studio, and I saw that Kino was installed by default..
<DeusQain> after checking out kino, I thought it was less useful.
<holstein> well, we gotta pick one
<holstein> as soon as we would switch them
<holstein> im sure someone would complain
<DeusQain> true.
<holstein> i think kino had more polish?
<holstein> maybe?
<holstein> or maybe just less stuff
<holstein> and simpler
<holstein> im not a video guy
<holstein> and just briefly looked at them
<holstein> ScottL does a lot of video
<holstein> though
<DeusQain> ahh.  Cinelerra is more a "pro" piece of software, I could see why it's less likely a candidate.
<DeusQain> for general distribution.
<holstein> DeusQain: valid argument though
<holstein> bring it up
<holstein> if its a better tool, we should discuss it
<DeusQain> excellent.
<holstein> DeusQain: you do audio?
<holstein> or mostly just video?
<DeusQain> both.
<holstein> cool, check out #opensourcemusicians when you can :)
<DeusQain> Used to be an audio engineer for a Radio Station, and Also worked as an editor for a TV station.
<holstein> nice, lots of pro experience then
<DeusQain> yeah.. but that was years ago.
<DeusQain> This day and age, I'm a System/Network admin.
<holstein> DeusQain: welcome to the party :)
<DeusQain> Long time lurker, first time community contributor.
<DeusQain> :D
<holstein> good timing
<holstein> we need the contibs for sure
<holstein> and right now, we really dont have a lot of video folk envolved
<holstein> i just dont have time to test the stuff
<DeusQain> I hear that.
<holstein> and even if i did, i dont know if i would really know what to do in there anyways
<holstein> ScottL has some cool green screen stuff though
<holstein> and i want to say that was in cinelerra ?
<holstein> not sure
<DeusQain> That's a good thing to look into.
<DeusQain> I'm not sure if Cinelerra has the masking ability of like.. After Effects.
<DeusQain> hmm..  Must do more research.
<DeusQain> I currently run a PC and gaming website, (I bring the opensource, linux, ultra geek/nerd stuff to the table)
<DeusQain> we do a bunch of random videos.
<holstein> cool
<holstein> how is it for gaming?
<holstein> are you writing linux games?
<holstein> i know theres $$ in it
<holstein> and it wouldnt be that hard to code for all
<DeusQain> The site, is more a community of PC enthusiasts, with a gamer oriented theme.
<DeusQain> I'm the Opensource advocate.
<ScottL> holstein, i'm anxious to get the menu fix underway, are you available this week to rock it out?
<ScottL> if not i can handle today probably as i'm home sick on my birthday with the flu (and the rest of the family)
<DeusQain> Best of Birthday wishes, and hope you feel better.
<DeusQain> ScottL: I was told you are the one I should speak with, but my concerns can wait..  I have to head out, but I will catch up with you another time.
<holstein> ScottL: ping
<holstein> ScottL: im totally into helping out, and should have time this weekend... ping me if you are working on it, and i'll ping you if im sitting around bored :)
<holstein> i emailed the list to instigate a meeting for sunday
<holstein> lists*
<holstein> i meant to get at this sooner
<holstein> but, if we do them monthly at the same time, hopefully that will help with the attendance
<ScottL> holstein, good email on the meeting
<ScottL> after reading tim's email i wonder if it would be helpful to run this bigbluebutton sometime?
<ScottL> don't know that if it would or wouldn't, just got me thinking
<ScottL> holstein, as far as the menu fix, i've already got a package built for it this afternoon
<ScottL> just sitting around being sick and bored so i did it
<ScottL> if you still want to do it we can certainly do it so that you get the exposure
<ScottL> just let me know
<ScottL> holstein, don't forget we still have backporting coming up
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-04
<scott-upstairs>  dch -bv1.2.0-1ubuntu1~maverick1~ppa1
<scott-upstairs> paultag, are you close to having something for me to test?  I've got my natty setup just waiting ;)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: yes, I uploaded the package about 20 minutes ago
<paultag> scott-upstairs: it will be in ppa:paultag/staging
<paultag> should be pending build now
<paultag> scott-upstairs: I was going to give you a ping once it buit :)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: https://launchpad.net/~paultag/+archive/staging/+packages <-- there it is :)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: cool?
<scott-upstairs> lol, that sounds good :)
<paultag> :)
<scott-upstairs> after i finish an email for work i'll move over to my testing machine and try it out, i'm looking forward t it :)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: rock on :)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: sorry I've been laggy, I had a shitty situation at my uni
<paultag> still here to help, I'm on break now, and just got like 5 things done :)
<scott-upstairs> paultag, no problem man, we take it when we can get it, and it's not like i'm involved all the time either :)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: :)
<paultag> I just got nightly builds of fluxbox working, too
<paultag> my linode is about to start cranking out builds :)
<scott-upstairs> oh sweet
<paultag> BRB, lunchtime! :)
<ailo> scott-upstairs, I'm checking it out too. I added the repo, but I only see the US-controls from the main repo.Ideas?
<scott-upstairs> ailo, not really at this point, i expected that you and paul added your code to the existing package so it would have the same package name but that may have been presumptuous
<scott-upstairs> i'll probably start looking at it in fifteen minutes though
<ailo> scott-upstairs, Oops. I think it's still building
<scott-upstairs> ah, lol, well that's good news i guess :P
<scott-upstairs> huh, ailo , i can't find paul's ppa in launchpad (via web browser)
<scott-upstairs> it appears that i added his ppa via synaptic though
<scott-upstairs> ailo, incidentally, i managed to get debuild to run and upload everything for the -lowlatency kernel into my ppa
<scott-upstairs> but i screw up a few things along the way (i know what they were) and it didn't build properly
<scott-upstairs> but i plan to redo it this weekend and i have almost full confidence that it will build correctly
<ailo> scott-upstairs, It appears the build failed, so we might have to wait a little longer. Great news about the -lowlatency.
<scott-upstairs> oh yeah, i found it labeled "happy things"
<scott-upstairs> and yeah, i see that the package failed to build as well now :/
<scott-upstairs> oh well, i guess we wait for paul to get back from lunch then
<scott-upstairs> i'll be available pretty much all weekend to help test it
<scott-upstairs> heading downstairs with the family for a while
<ailo> paultag: python-meminfo-total? I didn't realize it had been packaged as an independent package.
<ailo> scott-upstairs, It appears two components of the original -controls exist as independent packages. python-meminfo-total and python-change-settings. 
<ailo> paultag, I see that your build fails the same way as mine did. If you look in the tmp folder for the build, you will see it puts stuff in */2.7/* and not */2.6/*, which is where it's looking for the files
<ailo> So, '/debian/tmp/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/meminfo_total.py' is not found because it's in '/debian/tmp/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/meminfo_total.py'
<ailo> paultag: Since python-meminfo-total exists as a package in the main repo, I'm thinking perhaps we can remove it from the source and just add it as a dependency (which it should already be..)?
<falktx> ailo: i have the same issue with my python packages
<ailo> falktx, Only for Natty?
<falktx> ailo: yep,
<falktx> it seems a python2.7 issue
<ailo> I guess Natty will use 2.7 as standard while 2.6 used to be? The latest changelog on -controls in the repo, a build made in December shows that it was adapted for 2.7. I think the source I used may have been older.
<ailo> paultag: I should have gotten the source from Nattys repo, looking back. Going to check it out now.
<falktx> ailo: afaik, natty will have both python 2.6 and 2.7, but 2.7 as default
<ailo> Well, doesn't make me any wiser though :P.
<ailo> Looking at the source for Natty, that is
<falktx> ailo: alessio worked around this, by copying files manually
<ailo> falktx: Which files were those?
<falktx> let me get an example build
<falktx> ailo: http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/laditools.git;a=commitdiff;h=dd1de0c1d3789e2e8a96789939f47e0a9bae3e2d
<falktx> the more importand is this line:
<falktx> - dh_auto_install
<falktx> + dh_auto_install --install-scripts=/usr/lib/laditools --install-lib=/usr/lib/laditools
<ailo> falktx, Thanks. Just came back. debian helper auto install, ey?
<falktx> hehe
<ailo> paultag: I was looking at your work on the packaging. I should point out that I edited the original source, so your patch is patching not only the original, but my edit as well. Would it be easier to start from scratch? Also, looking at the folder tree "debian/ubuntustudio-controls/usr/lib/*" I'm missing ubuntustudio-controls and the three shell scripts. Maybe they will end up there anyway? Just pointing that out.
<ailo> To say it clearer: I'm missing "/usr/lib/ubuntustudio-controls/*.sh" for the three shell scripts in the source.
<ailo> ScottL, scott-upstairs: A new -rt patch came out recently. For 2.6.34
<ScottL> extremely cool :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-06
<ailo_> ScottL, ping
<ScottL> ailo_, pong
<ailo_> Hi ScottL. Did you read the devel list? Seems like there's someone offering help. Got me thinking. Was going through the wiki pages, trying to find pages dedicated to development.
<holstein> http://holstein.shacknet.nu:8227/stream.ogg
<ailo_> holstein, alrite. Our favorite jazz radio station.
<ailo_> ScottL: Some things have been worked on more than others, like discussing the -controls. But there seems to be a central place missing, where you can see what is being done, what needs to be done, and what is not being done. That sort of thing.
<ailo_> ScottL: The new guy is asking for directions, and it would be really easy just to point him to some pages and then discuss what exactly he would like to do, and what needs to be done
<ScottL> ailo_, sorry, haven't read much mail today, been working heavily on backporting to lucid
<ScottL> ailo_, yeah, that's similar to what holstein suggested, just a nice dev page that links to things going on and where help might be needed
<ScottL> just so people can see:  https://launchpad.net/~slavender/+archive/backports-testing/+packages
<ailo_> ScottL: How does ther backporting work? You can do that anytime? I saw a wiki about that. I could help out.
<ScottL> ailo_, wow, that guy's email sig is fookin' wicked cool :)
<ScottL> ailo_,  oh yeah, i'll need people to help test these packages
<ScottL> i'm hoping you, holstein, and maybe rlameiro can do help test (i'll test it as well)
<ScottL> but my thinking is that the three of you should probably divide up the testing to make it go faster
<ailo_> ScottL: How many packages do you have left? When you think you'll be done?
<ScottL> once we have two people with success tests who comment in the bug report then i'll post a debdiff and it should be pushed pretty quickly
<ScottL> i spoke with ScottK about this yesterday and we knocked out the plan in short order
<ScottL> ailo_, re: packages and time - hold on, let me find the link
<ScottL> by the way, this is an interesting video about hard real-time and soft real-time
<ScottL> http://vimeo.com/6081746
<ScottL> ailo_, here's the backports wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Backports
<ScottL> i've been updating it as i get something built or report a bug
<ScottL> ailo_,  you could start with the backports from natty if you are interested, that would make a nice division of labor
<ailo_> ScottL, Alrite. Nice work. I'll have a look.
<ScottL> the idea is that i would _like_ to backport from natty if natty offers a later version of a package
<ScottL> but sometimes they depend on a later version of some other package :(
<ScottL> and ailo_ , i really recommend test building in a pbuilder environment because it will tell you if it can't satisfy a dependecy in lucid without having to wait for a ppa to build or cluttering up a ppa with a bunch of packages that won't build
<ailo_> ScottL, So, the list of backports to Maverick is only started?
<ScottL> btw, i'll respond to that email tomorrow morning while i do some other emails
<ailo_> ScottL. From: Natty, that is
<ScottL> ailo_, these are backports to lucid...from either maverick or natty
<ScottL> i only tried to backport qtractor for the natty ones
<ScottL> it was because i already had qtractor source code on my machine
<ScottL> i am hoping to be done with the maverick backports tomorrow morning, then i get back onto the -lowlatency kernel again
<ScottL> that's about 17 hours hence
<ailo_> ScottL, Ok. I'll have a look at the Natty packages. It'll probably take a little more time for me to start with.
<ScottL> ailo_, the top of the page has this link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/BackportsHowToHelp
<ScottL> it's pretty much a step-by-step guide to do this using qjackctl as an example
<ScottL> has lots of good packaging basics in it
<ailo_> ScottL, Yep. Thanks. I think I've got all the wiki pages in my bookmarks now, though I may miss new ones, if they are made.
<ailo_> I mean newly made pages, I might miss
<ailo_> holstein is soloing away :P
<ailo_> ScottL, Interesting video, about the -rt stuff!
<ScottL> i haven't listened to it all yet, been focusing on the backporting
<ScottL> ailo_, i think after natty one of the things i would like to focus on is the documentation, but probably primarily from a user perspective
<ScottL> meaning getting work flows fleshed out more and documentation that will help users
<ScottL> eh, patchage just took a big dump on me
<ScottL> i had been avoiding installing every library and dependency under the sun until i got to patchage
<ScottL> that's the nice thing about using pbuilder - it creates a chroot environment that has minimal packages and then when you attempt to build something
<ScottL> in it then it realizes what is missing and install those in the pbuilder environment
<ScottL> and since this is all temporary, when it's done it just drops everything and your basic system is unmolested
<ailo_> ScottL: I think both for users and developers would be a good things. User documentation shouldn't be too hard to work out. There are tons of detailed manuals for most programs, so an Ubuntustudio specific documentation doesn't need to be that extensive. The Ubuntustudio doc on work flows should include most things and explain simply, is what I think.
<ScottL> ailo_, that's true....and if we managed to simplify and make our developer documentation more effective then we could probably get more dev help
<ailo_> ScottL, I will focus on documentation too, once other things are out of the way. Right now, I'm working a lot on my own stuff as well.
<ailo_> ScottL, Pehaps while waiting for the release of Natty +1 alpha 1, I'll have time to work on that type of thing.
<ailo_> ScottL, Are you getting a sense of what things are best done in what periods before a release? Perhaps a simple schedule could be made, when it makes most sense to focus on different things?
<ailo_> +explaining when*
<ailo_> It would be easier to ask for help once things like that are already mapped out. I think many people will have periods of time, when they have a lot of time to help.
 * ailo_ is getting some coffee..
<ScottL> ailo_, actually, i have been thinking about scheduling
<ScottL> mainly because we always seem to be behind the curve LOL
<ScottL> ailo_, i don't know if you can see this or not:  https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkE-Lxi30H8wdGNCTF9fODltNjVOT2dPbm44V3ZLZEE&hl=en&pli=1#gid=0
<ScottL> i wanted this just as a reminder to think about things before they're actually needed
<ScottL> i also had been thinking about a 'ubuntu studio' google calendar that rlameiro had set up...that would be really nifty to set things up with a reminder
<ScottL> and those that want can subscribe
<ailo_> ScottL, Sounds like all good ideas to me. Maybe a release schedule, paralell to Ubuntu's would be good too. We should have some deadlines, followed by reviewing and testing for some things.
<ScottL> ailo_, that was the general idea between the google calendar and my spreadsheet...just a reminder before something is due
<ScottL> ailo_, also, i've started trying to build some of the backports from natty in pbuilder as is (right after apt-get source <package>) just to see if they build in lucid
<ScottL> i dont' think many will :(
<ScottL> BUT i'm recording what packages are missing for each package that fails to build
<ScottL> and i might try to get some of the missing packages backported so we can backport more of our audio packages
<ailo_> I think the most important thing for next release is to get the -lowlatency in. I just think that's the most fundamental part for the audio part. ScottL How about starting a duc wiki page on that?
<ailo_> doc*
<ailo_> Since I have been working on the controls, and even though I have limited experience on software development, I still think I could take charge of laying out some sort of a project planning page on that.
<ScottL> ailo_,  here's what i've been working on for release planning: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning
<ScottL> doesn't mean that's the way it should be though
<ailo_> ScottL, I already forgot about that page :P. 
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> ailo_, i've already gone through the natty backports, this way i can move back into the maverick stuff now that i know the natty package versions won't work
<ScottL> hi raony_  :)
<raony_> hey scottl :)
<raony_> what's up ?
<raony_> I'm reading the release plan and the bugs at launchpad ... 
<raony_> I'm still a bit lost about how to set up a station to actually be able to help ! 
<raony_> it's better if i set up a virtualbox with the natty version of studio ? 
<ScottL> doh, he's gone already :(
<ailo_> raony_, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning
<raony_> I'm reading
<ailo_> raony_, As for software projects, there's the ubuntustudio-controls, which needs some attention.
<ailo_> raony_, I've been working on a new version on the ubuntustudio-controls, but what I have done doesn't need to end up in the next release
<raony_> what are your changes at this control ?
<ailo_> raony_, I've made a new one almost from scratch, since some features have become outdated. Also, there have been some big plans for improving it, but I only got it to do some basic things. Add user to audio group, adjust memlock value and install restricted extras.
<ailo_> raony_, It's not packaged yet. For the next release it would be good be more organized with the development of that app. paultag has been helping me with this project.
<ailo_> raony_, You don't happen to know much about kernels, by any chance?
<raony_> not really :/ 
<raony_> but I'm here to learn :) just need that you guys point me the directions 
<raony_> what language you guys mainly use ? for example on the studio-controls ?
<ailo_> raony_, It's been a python gtk project, though my version also uses shell scripts :/
<raony_> well, I know python and shell script :)
<raony_> never worked with gtk, but it's time learn !
<ailo_> raony_, Here's the source for my version git clone git://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls.git ubuntustudio-controls
<ailo_> raony_, You'll need to use it on Natty
<raony_> how is the natty version of studio ?
<ailo_> raony_, And if you decide to try it out, you'll notice from the source that shell scripts should be in /usr/lib/ubuntustudio-controls/ and the audio.conf file should be in /usr/share/ubuntustudio-controls/
<raony_> are you using it inside a virtualbox or really installed in your pc ?
<ailo_> raony_, I've installed it. It's pretty ok now. I installed ubuntu vanilla, though and added packages onto that.
<ailo_> Installed on my machine, that is
<raony_> all right, tomorrow I'm installing here and checking your code
<ailo_> raony_, See you in tomorrows meeting?
<raony_> for sure !
<holstein> ailo__: hello :)
<holstein> ScottL: morning
<ailo__> Afternoon, holstein
<raony__> 12:00 here ... :D
<holstein> i see a lot of activity in the scroll from last nite
<holstein> i'll have to read that
<holstein> raony__: o/
<raony__> I got the studio natty alpha-3 and I'm planning to install after this meeting
<ScottL> morning holstein 
<holstein> i was just checking the mail to see if that was you raony__ 
<ScottL> hi raony__ and ailo__ 
<holstein> welcom
<holstein> e
<ScottL> holstein, are you up to finishing the menu update today?
<holstein> ScottL: im off this afternoon
<holstein> so, i should be able to try
<holstein> natty is all updated
<holstein> and ready to rock
<holstein> ScottL: did you see the mail from erik?
<holstein> about the site?
<holstein> and not being able to make the meeting?
<raony__> I read that, and I believe I can help him since I've been working more with webdevelopment nowadays :)
<raony__> what you guys think ?
<holstein> raony__: cool, we'll let ScottL know
<holstein> and get you guys in touch with each other
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Hello, all.
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: hey :)
<holstein> paultag: you around?
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> I've been working on the web site as well on the dev list.  My name is Brian.
<raony__> Hello Brian!
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> I didn't catch that last conversation, what's been discussed?
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: nothing yet
<holstein> you're just in time :)
<holstein> raony__ was offering assistance with the site
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Excellent!
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: are you in the position to give a run down?
<holstein> on what is going on?
<holstein> site-wise
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Yes, I can do that.
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> I've been working on the Impact theme.  You can see the original discussion for that here:
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> The first 'alpha' (so to speak) of the theme is done.  I really just need people to test it.
<holstein> COOL
<raony__> are you using wordpress for that?
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> It is being done in Drupal. 
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> I believe that is mandated by Canonical, although it's fine by me, as I like Drupla.
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: feel free to link us up in here for testing
<holstein> yeah, drupal is nice
<holstein> as long as the folk working on it are cool with it
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: to test, do you need a host?
<raony__> indeed ... I prefer drupal :)
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> I'll need to upload the files to my server, then I'll link.  I'll have that done in a few minutes here.  I don't have a dev site running, I just use a local server on my machine (using XAMPP).
<holstein> OK
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> So, those testing will need to be doing that, as well.
<holstein> i can do that locally here
<holstein> i would probably get one of the drupal turnkey linux appliance iso's
<holstein> and run it in virtual box
<holstein> something easy :)
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Okay, so I'll get those files ready. They will include just the theme directories, a database for those who care to see the set-up I've been using, and a readme file with some release notes.
<holstein> raboof: hey
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp
<holstein> raboof: we were just looking at the site
<raboof> hi ;) just curious ;)
<holstein> and talking about testing with Narwhal_Gym_Sock 
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: who is the web-team?
<holstein> is that pretty much just you and erik right now?
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Right now it is very bare bones, because I still have no idea what the plan is for the back end.  The theme will work out of the box, though.
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Yeah, me and Eric and Scott.
<holstein> cool
<holstein> well, make sure you get raony__ 's info
<holstein> if you need extra hands in there
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> I will do that.  And, naturally, we'll take as many helping hands as possible.
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: and like i said in the email
<holstein> i think you guys should feel free to have a seperate meeting
<holstein> whenever
<holstein> IF needed
<holstein> its challenging to find a time that works for everyone
<raony__> when this website is supposed to be online ?
<holstein> but, i think keeping a regular time will help with attendance
<holstein> raony__: good question
<raboof> i'd definitely go for shiny or comic rather than punk
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Right now, it's a 'whenever it gets done' type of thing (like a lot of Linux stuff)
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: loosely for natty though right?
<holstein> or shortly there-after
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> holstein: Natty would be the preference.  At least on my part.
<holstein> Narwhal_Gym_Sock: is that realistic?
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> raboof: We'll be using the "Impact" theme for the site.  Although I'm going to try to develop some desktop artwork using the comic style.
<raboof> i don't know it, but what i se on the wiki looks good
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> holstein: Not sure.  The theme could definitely be done by them.  As for the rest of it, well, I'm not sure.
<holstein> well, i agree, its looking slick
<holstein> ScottL: when you get a minute, pop over here, and talk about backporting
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> The whole process as to how we want to organize the content of the site, and then how we get it all uploaded to the server and set up, is still a mystery to me.
<holstein> maybe we can get a little unofficial backporting team started
<ailo__> Narwhal_Gym_Sock, I see there are some additions intended for the site, like a tutorial section, feature overview. How much of that is done?
 * ScottL is catching up on backscroll
<ScottL> holstein, i just now read eric's email
<ailo__> Narwhal_Gym_Sock, Or maybe it's just easier we try it out
<ScottL> Narwhal_Gym_Sock, i'm going to update the list of pages needed for the website for the immediate needs via email shortly
<raboof> i'd say put as little content on the site as possible, and litter it with links to the wiki(s)
<holstein> ^^ i like that too
<raboof> (but don't take me too seriously, i don't even use ubuntu atm :) )
<holstein> link to the buntu stuff thats already in place
<holstein> ailo__: you want to tell us about the controls thingy?
<holstein> that you and paultag are working on?
<ailo__> I think we need to organize the wiki, work on documentation for both users and developers. But, I wouldn't mind a feature overview on the main site, with pictures.
<holstein> most teams have a wiki team
<holstein> maybe we should entertain that for the future
<holstein> some folks that keep the studio wiki's clean and up to date
<raony__> holstein: I will also try to help ailo with the studio-controls 
<raony__> he already sent me his code
<ailo__> Well, to answer holstein, I've been working on a new version of the ubuntustudio-controls with some help from paultag. It's very simple. Makes it easier for new users to make sure they have realtime privilege. Here's a picture of it http://imagebin.org/141459
<holstein> raony__: cool, i just read a little of the exchange you guys had :)
<holstein> ailo__: do you need testers yet?
<ScottL> so, i'm working on the backports for lucid:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Backports
<ScottL> there's a list of what i considered and how that played out with trying to backportr
<ScottL> sometimes new versions use updated version of other packages that aren't in luid
<ailo__> I'm not suggesting we use the code for future releases, though. paultag had an idea of making it pluginable. Also, I guess accessing realtime will change sooner or later too. There have been a lot of ideas on what to add to the controls, so it could be reallly be expanded.
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/BackportsHowToHelp
<ScottL> so say ardour from either maverick or lucid can't be backported to lucid because it requires a later version of a build package than is in lucid
<ScottL> but there are still quite a few packages to backport
<ScottL> i've build pretty much all of them and will need people to start testing them
<holstein> ScottL: and that would be https://launchpad.net/~slavender/+archive/backports-testing/+packages
<ScottL> the general plan is that i committed to building them and providing a test as well
<ScottL> aye holstein 
<holstein> cool
<holstein> ScottL: so, in lucid, add that PPA
<ScottL> then we just need one additional tester to test the package and report on the associated bug report
<holstein> and upgrade/test
<ailo__> I can help with testing those
<ScottL> once we have two testers on record in the bug report the backports team should move pretty quickly to push it into the official backports release
<ScottL> i also hope to work on the -lowlatency kernel from instructions that abogani has given me
<ScottL> i feel pretty confident that i should get them built today (time permitting of course)
<holstein> ScottL: and the plan is to have that in natty?
<holstein> as an option?
<ScottL> holstein, good question :/
<ScottL> persia had wanted to push it into the repos about a month ago (i guess) but it may be too late in the cycle, i'll have to see what his intentions are now
<holstein> yeah, we need that kernel 
<ailo__> Considering how similar the -lowlatency is to the generic kernel, it would make sense to let it in even after feature freeze.
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Sorry, everyone, my Internet just crapped out.
<ScottL> i need to get off my arse about establishing an official Ubuntu Studio PPA so we can dump the -lowlatency kernel (if not in repo) and also an -rt kernel
<holstein> ScottL: that would be a PPA we could add 'out of the box' ?
<ScottL> ailo__, i got the impression that persia was just going to do it...sounded almost cavalier :P
<holstein> ship with?
<ailo__> ScottL, It would be great if he did :P
<ScottL> holstein, if we updated a package to add the source line to sources.list, then yes
<holstein> thats totally fine
<holstein> either way then
<ailo__> So, Narwhal_Gym_Sock, about the site. How can we test it? We download some files from you and try the site out locally?
<ScottL> by the way, if people want to start testing the backports they can
<ScottL> https://launchpad.net/~slavender/+archive/backports-testing/+packages
<holstein> ScottL: these get backported to lucid or maverick?
<holstein> or whatever?
<holstein> do they need to be tested in both?
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> ailo: That is correct.  I'm getting those files ready to upload to my website as we speak, and then I'll send a link to everyone.
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Anyone wanting to test will need to use XAMPP (or something similar).
<raony__> why ?
<ailo__> Narwhal_Gym_Sock, php and mysql?
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> ailo: Yes.  You will basically need to do a Drupal install yourself on your own local server, and then drop in my theme files and, optionally, upload the database I've been using.
<ScottL> holstein, they get backported to lucid...most are coming from maverick and one from natty
<ScottL> so just test in lucid
<holstein> ScottL: i see
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> ail0: That last part is only necessary if you want to see the basic set-up I've been using.  Otherwise, the theme will work out of the box and you can set up your test site as you'd like.
<ailo__> I have a local server running Apache and postgres. Drupal is new to me, so I'll have to see if I can get it all to work.
<raony__> I want to ask something, I downloaded studio alpha-3 here to install here, but I tough about trying to upgrade from maverick first, how is that working right now ? I believe is better if I install from zero, am I right ?
<holstein> also, http://www.turnkeylinux.org/drupal6
<holstein> thats how i probably will do it
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> ailo: I'm not sure, but I believe Drupal needs to use MySQL.  Otherwise, it's really easy to install.
<holstein> raony__: fresh install is usually faster
<holstein> and preffered
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Yes, I fresh install will save you many problems.
<holstein> IF i were upgrading to natty, i would want to wait til at least beta too
<raony__> ok, and what kernel it comes with ? -lowlatency or -rt ?
<holstein> just incase
<holstein> raony__: -generic
<holstein> try it though
<raony__> thanks
<holstein> i have found that the -lowlatency is working quite well in natty
<holstein> with my firewire device
<ailo__> The -lowlatency kicks ass.
<holstein> yeah ^^
<holstein> most folk dont need either though
<holstein> but, we need to have -lowlatency i think
<holstein> well, i think we all kinda faded out 
<holstein> but, we got some things done
<holstein> discussion mostly, and thats good
<holstein> i'll try and paste our meeting in an email here in a bit
<holstein> thanks all, ScottL raony__ Narwhal_Gym_Sock raboof ailo__ :)
<ailo__> On making things easier for new user: I started working on a script a couple of months ago, that runs at startup to see if the system is tuned or not. Also, I would want to put the -controls in the notification area, where the user can easily find it. Have a button for help there. Let it be pluginable as paultag suggested.
<holstein> and any idlers i missed
<raboof> ;)
<raony__> that's a good idea holstein.
<raony__> the natty studio will be release together with the other releases April 28th ?
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Thanks, everyone, I'll send a link to the site testing files to the list in a few minutes.
<ailo__> Next meeting, a month from now?
<holstein> ailo__: yup
<holstein> first sunday of the month :)
<raony__> all right!
<ailo__> Sounds almost holy :)
<raony__> I'm moving to natty, see you guys !
<ScottL> i've done all the building for backporting i'm going to do at the moment, although there are a few notable exceptions in the wiki:
<ScottL> alsa-tools: i'd like to research it more to see if this will affect other packages possibly and cause breakage
<ScottL> gcdmaster: there already was a backports bug report for this, although i don't know if it will move without us doing something
<ScottL> patchage: i need to research this also, nedko kinda makes things build weird and i think i may need to install a lot of packages
<ScottL> rakarrack: saving this for holstein to build :)
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> Hey, everyone, here is a link to the website files for those who would like to do testing:
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> http://www.sunmachine.coop/ubuntu/impact_2011-02-26.tar.gz
<Narwhal_Gym_Sock> I will send this to the list as well.
<ScottL> holstein, do you need any further help with the menu update?
<holstein> ScottL: yeah :)
<ScottL> which point are you at currently?
<ScottL> holstein,  where are you at now?
<holstein> same as before
<holstein> let me get some things sorted
<holstein> and i'll PM you
<ScottL> righty-o
<ailo__> ScottL, I'll help testing the backports tomorrow. What's the deal then? What kind of comments? If the package is working, we just say it's working?
<ailo__> on the bug reports
<ScottL> ailo__,  aaaahhhh, i'm not sure exactly on the wording but I think just a note saying that you tested it and it worked
<ailo__> ScottL, And then once three of us have confirmed, the packages are fit for baclporting?
<ailo__> Was just installing drupal. If I get it going I'll try and share it with you guys. Don't have a lot of bandwidth, though...
<ScottL> ailo__, only two confirmed are necessary (actually ScottK said only one was really necessary but normally it's two)
<ScottL> and i'm going to test each as well
<ScottL> i think if you follow some of the links on this page you will find examples of what worked to get previous backport bugs closed: https://bugs.launchpad.net/lucid-backports/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=FIXRELEASED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.tag=&field.tags_combinator=ANY&fie
<ScottL> ld.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on&field.has_blueprints.used=&field.has_blueprints=on&field.has_no_blueprints.used=&field.has_no_blueprints=on
<ScottL> ew
<ailo__> ScottL, but the links to the bugs are all in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Backports, right?
<ScottL> try this page instead:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/lucid-backports/+bugs?advanced=1
<ScottL> under status make sure only "fixed released" is checked
<ScottL> ailo__, yes, all links are on that page
<ScottL> ailo__, i don't know if you had seen this already:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender/scratchpad
<ScottL> those are my notes from aboganni to build the -lowlatency kernel from his git tree
<ScottL> i just ran through it really quick like and without any apparent problems and uploaded my changes to my ppa
<ScottL> after it builds (hopefully correctly) i'll feel  100% good about it then
<ailo__> ScottL, Nice, How about creating the source tree from scratch (using the Ubuntu kernel source)?
<ailo__> The way it seems to be set up is using a sort of -lowlatency patch on top of the -generic, thought the patch is really only changing a few configs from what I can tell. I guess that belongs to what is still a mystical area, namely debian packaging
<ailo__> Mystical to me* :)
<ailo__> For a short term I think it will be enough just to hang on to those configs, but in the long term, someone will have to follow up on kernel feature updates.
<ScottL> ailo__, lol, it tired to build the kernel before it had built the meta so i was missing the source
<ScottL> i'll try to force the kernel to build again
<holstein> ScottL: did you see my cop-out-ish PM?
<holstein> im heading out the door
<holstein> i
<holstein> 'll
<holstein> try and catch up with you later
<holstein> and see if i can carve out some time
<holstein> good meeting though i thought
<ScottL> holstein, oh, lol, actually i didn't till now
<ScottL> i can take of it all
<ScottL> doh!  my kernel build needs linux-source-2.6.38-5.32 and can't find it :(
<ailo__> ScottL, Don't you have the entire source from aboganis git repo?
<ScottL> ailo__, i don't know
<ScottL> ailo_, ^
<ScottL> i thought it would have come with the -meta
<ScottL> but i'm pretty ignorant about a lot of these things
<ailo_> The -meta should not hold the actual kernel source, right? Only the -lowlatency itself.
<ailo_> And the -lowlatency seemed to be identical to a -ceneric source tree, except for some additions. That is the way it seemed to me
<ScottL> but then there was a -lowlatency package as well
<ScottL> but i looked at all the packages the -meta built and the source is not in there
<ScottL> i'll email abogani later tonight about it and he'll probably answer by the time i wake up
<ailo_> ScottL, Probably better. :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-27
<ScottL> len-nb, i'm sorry, you are correct
<ScottL> i rolled the menu files into the -default-settings package because of setting the applications menu icon
<ScottL> micah and i talked about this 
<len-nb> ScottL what would you like me to do?
<len-nb> I can pull settings and mod it if you like.
<ScottL> sure, that sounds good....again, i'm sorry about that
<len-nb> So long as you are finished with it for a bit
<ScottL> len-nb, i think so, but that really is up to micahg at the moment since he should be reviewing what i did and upload to the repo
<len-nb> ScottL, I don't want to get in the way of changes you might be doing either :)
<len-nb> Ok, I will wait a day or so. Till settings gets to iso
<micahg> TheMuso: would you be up for looking at the ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme package, I think the maintainer scripts might need a migration, but I'm not sure
<micahg> ScottL: ok, ubuntustudio packages finally uploaded, meta coming soon
<micahg> meta uploaded
<scott-work> thank you micahg, we most likely wouldn't have gotten this done without your efforts
<micahg> scott-work: we're not out of the woods yet, the meta is still uninstallable
<scott-work> micahg: and that is because of the lightdm package, no?
<scott-work> micahg: but the meta being uninstallable doesn't affect the image building does it?
<micahg> scott-work: it does
<astraljava> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+junk/ubuntustudio-live
<astraljava> Needs some work, still, but is almost done. Basically just requires descriptions, titles and names for missing tasks that we want to add.
<astraljava> ...in templates file.
<astraljava> Also, the FFe bug needs to be filed, I'll do that tomorrow.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-28
<ScottL> micahg, does this mean we will not have an image tomorrow?
<ScottL> micahg, is there anything that i can do to help this situation?
<ScottL> astraljava, thank you, does is already cover the existing tasks?
<ScottL> just for the record, hummus and vanilla wafers really don't mix well :/
 * ScottL ran out of flat pretzels
<ailo> That does sound a little strange
<ScottL> i wanted to finish the serving and that's all i had left :(
<ScottL> my wife buys them for me in serving containers, which is really nice for lunch as well
<ScottL> jussi, i have complied with your mailing list request
<ScottL> i also think i finally added cjwatson's emails from nusakan for the cd image building to the mailing list so i don't have to keep approving them
<micahg> ScottL: you should have images again
<micahg> len: there should be beta images to test if you're interested
<ScottL> zsync'ing image now :)
<scott-work> although i also noticed after i started the zsync that the links in my email to the beta image are no longer valid
<scott-work> but i am (probably done downloading already) going to test the image anyways as it was the "current' one
<scott-work> anyone know why the beta image was pulled or should i just ask in #ubuntu-release?
<scott-work> TheMuso:  i noticed that conrad was added to the -dev group, is there something specific he was going to do?
<astraljava> scott-work_: Not really, tasks will be added tonight.
<len> micahg, thankyou, downloading now, but test will have to wait family bus first.
<scott-work_> jibel should be fixing the link for the QA test images, which apparently where not working
<scott-work_> len: which image are you grabbing?  is it the i386 or the 64 bit?
<scott-work_> holstein: do you think you might be able to test an image or two today?
<holstein> scott-work_: hmmm... let me see when i make it home this afternoon
<TheMuso> scott-work: Not sure, he asked to be added, so I guess so...
<micahg> scott-work_: infinity wanted the ability to fix the seeds if something was broke, for the other seeds, core-dev is a member of the management team
<micahg> I ended up fixing it for him yesterday
<scott-work_> TheMuso: micahg:  my apologies, i didn't realize that conrad was inifinity, that makes more sense now :)
 * micahg is curious if the US images are working now
 * scott-work_ is too
<scott-work_> but i won't be able to find out for another 2.4 hours
<scott-work_> going to pick up kids and go home and test the ISO, but i probably still have a few hours before i'll be free to actually test it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-29
<len> ScottL, I have only x86 machines. The iso doesn't look promising... just yet, It is still small.
<len> But I will try anyway.
<len-nb> Looks good.
<len-nb> I get the ubuntustudio theme on the live dvd :-)
<len-nb> I haven't installed yet... as I have some other work to do for a bit.
<ScottL> len-nb, that's good, i'm burning now
<ScottL> i'm doing x86 as well
<ScottL> we need to get 64bit tested as well
<micahg> \o/
<ScottL> yeah, i'm very, very happy (and pleased) with that report
<ScottL> and quite relieved as well, i should add ;)
<ScottL> the xubuntu theme seems to work in the live user session
<ScottL> and while the applications menu icon is there, it has a incongruous background colour in relation to the theme
<ScottL> i am installing now
<ScottL> install went fine :)
<ScottL> i noticed no background as well on desktop, but that is probably something i did wrong
<ScottL> micahg, lightdm worked fine as well apparently
<micahg> very cool
<ScottL> Len-1204, i'll start looking at your work on the menu this week
<Len-1204> Ok, I am just sending email to the list re backdrop. It is too messy to do here...
<Len-1204> ScottL, take a look for an email on the list from me.
<Len-1204> It doesn't really make sense... but it works.
<ScottL> len, i will look at the mailing list this morning
<ScottL> two things we still need to check (and probably address) are the -rt privileges and pulse<->jack bridge
<len> scott-work, -rt... if the "proper" way doesn't work... try the preinstall script. PA-jack bridging works... but not automatically.
<len> I don't know if the PA devs are even working on it as I have heard nothing back after the request for more logs.
<len> We can either run jackd all the time with PA on top (some sound cards don't play well) or turn pulse off an d on at jackd startup.
<len> PA -jack works fine with my HDA sound IF and with my envy24.  but not with the ensoniq.
<len> talk later. bye
<scott-work> TheMuso: micahg : how would i check up on the progress of the -lowlatency kernel in the REVU new queue?  or who would you suggest i talk to to find out it's progress?
<micahg> scott-work: it's in the archive already
<scott-work> OH!
<scott-work> then we can update the seeds then :)
<TheMuso> scott-work: Yes, I just need to rebase to the latest kernel this weekend but yes you can update the seeds.
<scott-work> yay!
<scott-work> :)
<scott-work> TheMuso: i would like to learn about rebasing the kernel at some point
 * micahg will defer these uploads to TheMuso
<scott-work> i should test the 64 bit beta 1 images tonight
<TheMuso> micahg: What uploads?
<TheMuso> ~/c
<ScottL> micahg, do you say that because you expect updating the seeds will be involved or problematic due to the -lowlatency kernel?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-01
<Len-1204> Is this release beta now? where is the page to report what works and does not?
<Len-1204> There is no link from our web page /wiki, I can't find it with a search
<len-nb> Ok, I found a testing tracker which shows daily, alpha1 and alpha 2 (and Lucid 10.04.4) so I guess there is no beta yet.
<micahg> TheMuso: anything related to that kernel :)
<len-nb> it is: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<ScottL> len-nb, did you find the right test case?
<ScottL> 64 bit - http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/208/builds/12719/testcases
<len-nb> ScottL: beta is march 1, it's not out yet. We may get to test for lowlat kernel...
<ScottL> 32 bit - http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/208/builds/12720/testcases
<ScottL> len-nb, right, beta 1 is not officially released but what we are doing is validating the ISO images
<ScottL> we wouldn't want to release a beta 1 (or any other) image officially with a large, pervasive bug when the image was uninstallable
<ScottL> if an image is not fully tested, the the release team has the right not to release that milestone image for wide spread testing
<len-nb> ScottL, it looks pretty good actually, was the eamil helpful at all?
<ScottL> len-nb, yeah, i'm very relieved that there didn't see to be any additional significant problems :P
<len-nb> s/aemil/email/
<kubotu> len-nb: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
<ScottL> len-nb, and the email was very helpful, i should attend to the menu this week
<len-nb> Scott: ok, do you still want me to pull the settings and mod it or would it be easier to send fills etc.? What else should I do? I have some panel stuff too if you like.
<len-nb> BTW, when the user first logs in, a lot of stuff from /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/
<len-nb> gets copied to ~/.config
<len-nb> If you use the settings panel to change these setting, you can see what changed in the file in that directory to know how to make changes in the default file in /etc/
<len-nb> ScottL  ^^^
<ScottL> len-nb, i'd say let's approach the panels next week, but i would say this...
<ScottL> i agree with you and mike about not modding the panel too much, especially for work flows
<ScottL> but i wouldn't mind keep the 2nd panel for the mundane desktop stuff (i.e. web browser, terminal, file browser)
<ScottL> but will probably change a few things
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'm not in a hurry to change the seeds for the -lowlatency kernel, i would like to get through this week and beta1 released first in the least
<ScottL> TheMuso, but i would like to try to maximize our time after beta 1 however
<len-nb> ScottL, I will remove the mini-menu from what I have shown on the webpage. So I have a file you can use. The menu directory/file seem to just work even with all our other menu bits hanging around.
<len-nb> I just copy it into the right directory and the next time I open the menu it works.
<len-nb> cleaning up the old stuff would be nice though.
<len-nb> I have made up a temp set of icons for Hexter, the firewire mixer and the photography menu as well as the needed directory files.
<ScottL> len-nb, is your menu stuff in your launchpad code still?
<len-nb> Yes.
<ScottL> cool
<len-nb> The panel stuff is not.
<len-nb> ScottL, the original ubuntustudio-menu will give a good idea as to what needs to be removed from the settings package before adding those files. There are actually only about 2 files that get kept.
<micahg> BTW, there's a GTK3 version of audacious in Debian now, not sure if you want that in precise, you'll want to sort that out with gilir from Lubuntu (I think they'd probably prefer GTK3)
<TheMuso> ScottL: Right.,
<len-nb> ScottL, with regard to the menu package, should there be a script that removes the old files in the case of an upgrade? The old files don't have to be removed for this to work so it may be better to leave them alone in case they are used by other session types.
<ScottL> i can't get the 64 bit version of the beta1 image to install :/
<ScottL> not sure if it is ubiquity or my discs, but i've had two discs that have stopped installing saying that it can't copy files and saying it might be the dvd
<ScottL> all images tested *whew*
<knome> it's evident we need help testing xubuntu images :/
<holstein> knome: ill see what i can do today!
<knome> holstein, thanks. i'm going to work on the amd64 desktop stuff
<knome> holstein, and yeah, we only have a few hours... ;)
<holstein> dammit!
<holstein> not sure if i can even get images downloaded then
<knome> yeah. no worries.
<holstein> the internet here is funky
<knome> i'll sort it out
<knome> we'll need to get this stuff sorted so we get tests done...
<scott-work> knome: i can start downloading in 7 hours time to start testing, is that still helpful?
 * scott-work would really like to help
<knome> scott-work, not anymore for today
<scott-work> :(
<knome> as said, we only have a few hours
<knome> i'm running some tests now
<scott-work> ah, i'm sorry that i couldn't be more help, i talked to micah about it last night, but i ended up running studio test until quite a bit past my bedtime last night
<knome> ah, np
<knome> have had to be away from computer more lately
<knome> so i can't blame anybody else really
<holstein> knome: who's doing what?
<holstein> looks like 0/3 on the alternates
<holstein> i'll download that iso
<holstein> or start...
<knome> holstein, i'm on the amd64 desktop
<holstein> ok
<holstein> im not
<holstein> well... i could be
<knome> because the amd53 alt tests were done on earlier cycles
<holstein> i could wipe that machine
<knome> err amd64
<holstein> knome: where do you need me?
<holstein> i can likely download one iso and do one test in time
<knome> in that case, i386 desktop auto-resize
<holstein> this looks correct? http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20120228/precise-desktop-i386.iso
<knome> yep
<holstein> :)
<holstein> we'll see if i can squeeze it in
<holstein> down to 25minutes
<knome> okay, thanks a lot
<holstein> and i 
<holstein> 'll do it on metal
 * knome just finished his first test
<knome> ...ever
<holstein> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-02
<scott-work> astraljava: will you be able to finish updating the ubiquitiy plugin and file the FFe?
<scott-work> knome: this weekend i commit to getting the slideshow stuff reconciled, but that really isn't going to affect you i guess
<len> scott-work, after playing with the beta for a bit, I have found that backdrop distracting. (the one with the extruded hex tiles, just to make sure I have the right one)
<len> It is quite bright where it shows around the working window(s)
<len> There have been a number of backdrops submitted, perhaps a darker one would be better. Or something with the busy-ness in the middle where the window would cover that part while working.
<len> The login screen is nice though.
<knome> scott-work, not really. just tell me when you've done the editing though so i can merge to the main branch :)
<scott-work> len: i agree, but that was just to set _something_ for the time being
<scott-work> len: this is the image that dick macinnis (who is working on our art) has submitted for the desktop wallpaper:  http://imagebin.org/201710
<scott-work> i agree with a backdrop that is not busy or distracting
<holstein> yeah... i always change it too
<holstein> its a brand though
<holstein> its brite
<holstein> i think it might be doing a service branding wise
<holstein> though... i would prefer something more subtle
<astraljava> scott-work: I will, on Sunday. During the working week I'm too exhausted, the temp job is killing me.
<len> scott-work, http://imagebin.org/201710 looks nicer though in parts very bright, but at least the transitions are slower and less distracting. I think the brightness levels of the backdrop can be adjusted if I remember right, so maybe a lower brightness would help.
<scott-work> astraljava: i understand
<scott-work> len: i would still like to work with macinnis to get closer to realizing my vision, but we certainly have this which i believe to be better (i.e. less distracting) than our outher existing wallpapers
<len> Yup, much better.
<scott-work> len: while i don't intend to make many changes to the panel, i really do want to change orage to make it a functional calender
<len> The panel is broken, you need to at least remove the broken stuff
<len> I just tried todays ISO and when I double click on the time orage came up just fine.
<len> scott-work ... at least running live, the live session seems very true to the installed session.
<len> I would replace one of the broken icons with xchat BTW ;-)
<len> However, new kernel, Jack-rt need to get done.
<len-1204> ScottL, I know you are not home yet, but thought I would expand on what I have found with orage.
<len-1204> The advantage to staying with xfceclock is that from boot or login, orage is not running and taking up resources.
<len-1204> Double clicking on the clock does start orage and a calendar apears on the desktop. However, closing orage does not stop it. ps shows it still running.
<len-1204> I am not sure what happens once it starts and logout and login happens. It may then self start at next login.
<len-1204> Also, once an appointment is set up, I would think orage has to be running in order to indicate to the user the start of an appointment.
<len-1204> Replacing the clock with orage means that appointments will always work. Only one click is needed to show the calendar and another hides it again. The calendar then remembers what part of the screen you moved it to.
<len-1204> I guess it remembers position anyways.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-03
<len-1204> Hmm, I can find docs on orage, but not its panel clock.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-04
<knome> hey ScottL :)
<scott-work> are we meeting?
<scott-work> i'm leaving work and should be home in thirty minutes
<len> ScottL, I take it the meeting would be formal this time? #ubuntu-meeting? An hour and a bit from now?
<len> Sorry, about 20 min...
<len> ScottL... Meeting?
<len> I don't know where I went but at the apointed time I went to a #ubuntu-meeting and found I was the only one there... no bots or anything..
<len> Anyway I used the search and found the right place... but still no activity... I give up
<len> I just figured out how I went to the wrong place... I clicked on the line above and prolly went to ubunutu-meeting? with the ? on the end..
<len> Anyway I have things to do and places to go...
<astraljava> len: No worries, no one remembers the meeting dates anymore.
<len> Scott was saying he was on his way home for it, but never showed too. So I am not sure whats up.
<len> astraljava I'm off.
<ScottL> sorry, got busy with family when i got home
<stochastic> Hey ScottL
<ScottL> hi stochastic 
<stochastic> I know I haven't been around as much as I planned, but how are things coming?
<ScottL> stochastic, pretty well i think
<ScottL> i know we (i) had a pretty aggressive set of goals for this cycle, but we actually managed to get most done
<stochastic> where are we at right now?
<stochastic> Alpha still?
<ScottL> beta1 just released
<stochastic> nice
<stochastic> is it solid?
<ScottL> we are practically done with the xfce transition, the live dvd is working, -lowlatency kernel is in the repo now
<ScottL> still need to address a few tweaks for xfce, need to add -lowlatency to seeds, adjust the menu slightly
<stochastic> do you need any work done on the website?  where does that project stand?
<ScottL> stochastic, to be honest, i haven't touched the website in at least a month
<ScottL> here is the roadmap currently https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap
<stochastic> gotcha
<ScottL> although i've only cleaned up the stuff that got done for beta1, i haven't moved any tasks not completed down into beta2
<ScottL> to be honest, some of the things will probably slide into next cycle (i.e. p+1)
<ScottL> probably ubiquity plugin at least
<stochastic> that's fine, it always tends to happen
<stochastic> I would love to still help out to get this website fixed up this release
<stochastic> is knome around these days very much?
<ScottL> sure, that would be awesome
<ScottL> stochastic, aye, he is around quite a bit, although in a different timezone
<stochastic> it's Korea?
<stochastic> or am I way off the mark?
<ScottL> way off
<stochastic> lol
<ScottL> finnish?
<stochastic> ahh
<ScottL> i'm horrible with most european-ish countries
<knome> hello :P
<stochastic> hey knome
<ScottL> knome, i'm terribly sorry to say that i've forgotten in which country you reside
<stochastic> have you touched the Ubuntu Studio website lately?
<knome> ScottL, finland, yup :P
<knome> stochastic, no, not really, waiting for feedback from *cough* scott
<stochastic> haha
<ScottL> oh good!  i'm glad i remember properly
<stochastic> has anyone approached the canonical web team to discuss transition to the new site?
<ScottL> oh bad, (waiting on me)...i know
<stochastic> no?  we should get that review process started sooner rather than later.  Does anyone have a contact?
<stochastic> jussi do you know who to talk to on that?
<stochastic> knome what's your schedule like?  when would be a good time to sit down a brainstorm/hash out some final details of the site?
<ScottL> stochastic, actually, someone from rt@ubuntu has already contacted us about doing it "soon"
<ScottL> but that has been weeks ago
<ScottL> but then again, we really weren't ready so i didn't push it
 * ScottL was away getting son lunch
<stochastic> excellent
<stochastic> I think the site is almost ready to swap, just a couple final touches.  Then we could get the remainder of the details/pages sorted out once it's up and running
<ScottL> stochastic, looking at the status page for ubuntustudio-precise we are doing fairly well:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
<ScottL> the website is the big standout at this point
<ScottL> not making good progress, that is
<knome> stochastic, pretty much anything tomorrow daytime works for me.
<stochastic> knome, I'm in Vancouver, so a good 9-10 hours behind your timeframe (it's noon here now).  I'll try to wake up nice and early tomorrow as it's my saturday and I like to sleep in.  Hopefully we can hash some details out.
<astraljava> ScottL: others: ubiquity plugin updated @ https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-live/ubuntustudio-live.precise, and FFe bug #946591 filed. If you could work it forward, would be great, as I anticipate not many minutes of online time during the following working week. I'd really love to see how it works in the installer soon, though.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 946591 in ubuntustudio-live "[FFe] Add ubuntustudio-live to precise repositories" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/946591
<ScottL> astraljava, outstanding!
<ScottL> i was basically going to push this to next cycle because i know i will not have time to finish it, etc
<ScottL> but i think it might happen now :)
<ScottL> i'm excited about this
<ScottL> especially if stochastic can finish up the website
<ScottL> it seems we might get practically everything done for this cycle :)
<ScottL> erk, shantsel just left
<astraljava> ScottL: It needs a fair amount of testing, still, so not sure whether it will make it into precise or not. But there's hope.
<astraljava> ScottL: Also, could be better to notify of bugs, needed features etc. by email instead of here. Email I will read whenever I get a chance, but IRC I will check only when I really have time.
<astraljava> I'll be sleeping now, got a tough week ahead, with early starts. Later!
<len-nb> ScottL, where are things with menus and settings?
<ScottL> len-nb, sadly i haven't touched it yet, i forgot satuday was my birthday and i spent the day with family
<ScottL> and i spent the morning at work today, but i should begin tonight
<len-nb> ScottL, no problem, my question is more are there going to be changes to the settings file or can I pull and mod it?
<ScottL> len-nb, any changes i make will be to the ubuntustudio-default-settings file but limited to the menu and panel right now
<ScottL> are there other changes you intended?
<ScottL> and i'll try to remember micahg's request/suggestion that i make different commits the branch per change
<len-nb> Just menu and panel. I have left the panel as is size and position but removed any apps we don't ship and replaced them with US specific apps (qjackctl, ardour etc)
<len-nb> ScottL, the menu could be merged from the one I push to my bucket and would just work, but it would be cleaner to remove the old stuff.
<len-nb> I have tested, just adding the /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menu/ directory and files to a stock install and it just works fine.
<len-nb> I have tested my panel changes by making a new user and they seem to work too.
<len-nb> It is interesting that the installing user gets a valid button for mailreader, but a new user does not. The installing user is not able to go to a mail reader as there is none but it does ask what program to use. The new user gets a blank button.
<len-nb> So commented the mailreader out too.
<len-nb> I added xchat too.
<len-nb> ScottL there are changes I have not made but feel should be made: I think there should be 4 desktops not two and I feel the mail icon in the top panel beside the network indicator should be removed as we have no app for it to connect to.
<ScottL> good points and i agree with them
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-25
<astraljava> len_1304: Ok, so it was a misunderstanding of the "Studio is based on 11.10", then. :)
<len_1304> astraljava, Ya, I was less than clear. I need to take a look at some of these things though. There are certainly some places where Xubuntu is cleaner than Studio.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-26
<len_1304> zequence, it looks like we need something like kgamma... with out the k
<zequence> len_1304: When it comes to that, I really have no clue, so whatever you say :)
<zequence> It's one of those things that would be good for someone to do some research on
<zequence> Someone who had only, say, graphics to worry about
<zequence> ..since it's also video related, is what I mean
<len_1304> Yes
<len_1304> I think there should be a setting for it in xfce settings.
<len_1304> I may whip up a python app that plays with xrandr
<len_1304> Maybe the xfce4 display settings is already in python. I should find out.
<astraljava> Len-nb: You're absolutely right. No one's taken a look at settings for a couple of releases. I ran out of time last night (way too much work), I'll try again Wednesday evening.
<holstein> i swear i could build a case for not including JACK by default
<zequence> The problem is that people coming from Windows think that starting applications is enough, and the audio should just work
<zequence> ..and I guess it would be good, if it did
<holstein> right, and windows nor osx do what we do anyway
<zequence> I'm considering trying to push for such a change in the whole LA world. But, it might not be that simple, as there are multiple jacks around
<holstein> nothing ships with everything "out of the box"
<holstein> zequence: we need that page as a bot popup
<holstein> !proaudio
<zequence> holstein: Can you program it?
<holstein> !audio
<ubottu> If you're having problems with sound, click the Volume applet, then Sound Preferences, and check your Volume, Hardware, Input, and Output settings.  If that fails, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Sound - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshooting - http://alsa.opensrc.org/DmixPlugin - For playing audio files,  see !players and !mp3.
<holstein> zequence: no, but lemme check...
<zequence> I don't have ops privileges, and don't know much about bots
<holstein> i think i know who maintains it
<holstein> i'll check..
<insomniaSalt> hi all!
<insomniaSalt> finally, I managed to route flash audio trough jack (so I don't have to stop JACK when I need to youtube as part of my workflow)
<zequence> insomniaSalt: there is a module on by default, which does that for you. Did you try it?
<insomniaSalt> not entirely sure
<zequence> If you start jack with qjackctl, pulseaudio creates sink and source for jack
<insomniaSalt> I'm in here because I was wondering if there's any better way
<insomniaSalt> that, for some reason didnt work
<zequence> Then, if you go into the PA mixer, you can set PA to use jack
<insomniaSalt> I connected sink to system in qjackctl
<insomniaSalt> but that PA mixer pref, where is it supposed to be?
<zequence> in outputs
<zequence> Just like if you would choose an audio device, you choose jack
<insomniaSalt> Output Devices tab
<zequence> It would be better if PA set itself to use jack by default, when you start jack. This is something I'd like to happen in the future
<zequence> Yes
<insomniaSalt> shows my two soundcards
<zequence> Is jack running?
<insomniaSalt> and I can select a "port" from a dropdown
<insomniaSalt> running and playing sound currently
<zequence> How are you starting jack. Is it jackdbus, or jackd?
<insomniaSalt> lemme see messages window
<zequence> Are you using qjackctl, with default settings?
<insomniaSalt> 16:57:14.376 D-BUS: Service not available (org.jackaudio.service aka jackdbus).
<insomniaSalt> 16:57:14.383 JACK is starting...
<insomniaSalt> 16:57:14.383 /usr/bin/jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p1024 -n2
<zequence> That looks pretty default
<insomniaSalt> qjackctl, yes
<zequence> insomniaSalt: Check in: Setup -> Misc, and look fot the dbus option
<zequence> Is it enabled?
<insomniaSalt> yes (also default I guess)
<zequence> Yep
<zequence> insomniaSalt: So, I don't know how you're making the PA jack connection right now, but what I would like you to do is shut everything down, logout, and login again
<insomniaSalt> anyways, what I did was use libflashsupport.c from Torben Hohn minus the V4L stuff
<zequence> Ah, ok
<insomniaSalt> weird thing is sometimes there is Sink and Source in connection window, sometimes not
<insomniaSalt> but no matter, no flashsound
<zequence> If you restart jack sometimes the thing fails
<zequence> I'd use the module over the libflashsupport thing
<zequence> The module is in its own package, called pulseaudio-module-jack. It's installed by efault
<zequence> To try it, remove the libflash thing, logout, login, and then start jack
<zequence> If you see the PA sink and source, set PA to use jack. Done
<insomniaSalt> currently not there
<zequence> could be the libflash thing is blocking it. 
<insomniaSalt> also, sometimes I've to log out and in again, or else jack won't even start
<zequence> I don't really know
<zequence> insomniaSalt: Yes, that's a jack bug
<insomniaSalt> nah, t'was the same before
<insomniaSalt> trying again
<zequence> insomniaSalt: When that happens, you can kill jack in a terminal: killall -9 jackdbus
<zequence> insomniaSalt: There's a fix for jack, which I'm trying to get in for 12.04. Right now, it works fine on 13.04
<insomniaSalt> no sink, no source :(
<zequence> insomniaSalt: Well, they usually don't fail on a clean system, when starting jack for the first time in a session
<zequence> insomniaSalt: Did you remove the libflash thing?
<insomniaSalt> doubt that's it but I do 
<zequence> insomniaSalt: pulseaudio-module-jack is installed? You sure you get the sink and source at times?
<insomniaSalt> used to, at least
<insomniaSalt> quick reboot just to make sure
<insomniaSalt> reboot, login, start Qjackctl: The playback device "hw:0" is already in use  (...) pulseaudio
<insomniaSalt> $ pulseaudio -k
<insomniaSalt> only then jack starts
<insomniaSalt> then automatically relaunching pulse as it seems
<zequence> insomniaSalt: PA is set to autospawn
<zequence> insomniaSalt: Try doing this. In a terminal, do: pasuspender -- && sleep 15
<zequence> Then, while PA is suspended, start jack
<zequence> Wait, that doesn't work :P
<zequence> pasuspender -- sleep 60, or whatever
<zequence> You can do Ctl+C to end the sleep once jack is running
<zequence> insomniaSalt: Ah, first kill jack though
<zequence> killall -0 jackdbus
<zequence> killall -9 jackdbus*
<zequence> insomniaSalt: If PA is set to use the same device as jack, it might not let go of the device
<zequence> It's a PA bug
<zequence> Works best if you are not using PA to do anything
<insomniaSalt> :-)
<insomniaSalt> that's how I fixed audio an my gentoo box
<insomniaSalt> uninstall pa, global useflag -pa
<insomniaSalt> looking at my shell history, it seems somewhere along the process I had to install jack and jack-dev packages, how can that be
<insomniaSalt> weird!
<insomniaSalt> trying the sleep thing
<zequence> insomniaSalt: You probably needed the jack-dev to build the libflash thing
<insomniaSalt> yes, idd. but what about the former? :-)
<insomniaSalt> and qjackctl got autoremoved in between
<insomniaSalt> then i reinstalled it, now it won't be autoremoved anymore
<insomniaSalt> weird
<zequence> insomniaSalt: The dev libraries depend on jack1 libs. Why qjackctl got removed has to do with dependencies
<insomniaSalt> $ pgrep jackdbus
<zequence> It's not very slick
<insomniaSalt> jackdbus ain't ever running
<insomniaSalt> sleep is over, pulse seems running (pgrep returns a PID), and still no sink/source :(
<insomniaSalt> and jackdbus never even ran to begin with
<insomniaSalt> only jackd
<zequence> insomniaSalt: is jackd2 installed?
<zequence> If you didn't reinstall it, you might be running jackd1
<zequence> Which doesn't support dbus. jackdbus is a part of the jackd2 package
<insomniaSalt> no d2
<insomniaSalt> yay!
<insomniaSalt> removing d1 d1-firewire libjack-dev and libjack0
<insomniaSalt> in favour of d2
<insomniaSalt> welcome back sink/source
<insomniaSalt> xD
<insomniaSalt> oh dear
<insomniaSalt> it works!
<insomniaSalt> but the setting in PAmixer is "hidden" in the playback tab
<insomniaSalt> there, I didn't look before
<insomniaSalt> currently hearing sound from youtube -> PA -> Jack
 * insomniaSalt starts Mixxx and prays
<insomniaSalt> which instantly killed the sound
<zequence> Well, that's probably not related to the module, rather on Mixxx itself
<insomniaSalt> it made entire firefox crash
<zequence> flash is probably the crook there
<zequence> When PA misbehaves, flash gets annoyed
<insomniaSalt> educational experience, still
<zequence> Trying to get ArdourXchange working. Have got it working in the past. Damn, I need it now
<insomniaSalt> verdict: back to the libflashsupport-jack thingy (the main purpose of all this being to enable people other than me to work at this computer, lol)
<insomniaSalt> minor thing: still no html5sound then
<zequence> Anything that works with PA will go through the module
<zequence> The module needs to be worked on, and is the best way to integrate jack with PA
<zequence> The libflash thing only works on flash, no?
<zequence> Not really an option
<zequence> and, does it work with jackd2?
<insomniaSalt> doubtful, I'll report
<insomniaSalt> indeed, make fails because of "No package 'jack' found
<zequence> WHen I say module, I'm talking about pulseaudio-module-jack, or module-jackdbus-detect, not the libflash thing
<insomniaSalt> I'm aware :)
<zequence> You can't compile libflash without jack dev packages, and those can't be installed when jackd2 is installed
<zequence> it's weird
<zequence> Hopefully jack devs come to resolution on those things at some point
<insomniaSalt> I'm more than happy to go back to jackd1 + libflashsupport-jack till then, seems the only way to have "agressive" applications such as Mixxx running througgh jack while simoultaneously being able to route sound from flash-based sources
<zequence> insomniaSalt: It's Mixxx that is the problem in this case
<zequence> insomniaSalt: Try disabling the PA module, and use only jack with Mixxx
<zequence> Probably it has bad jack code in it
<zequence> It has jack support, doesn't it? Or is it ALSA only
<zequence> Mixxx is not agressive. Just poorly written
<insomniaSalt> basically everything
<insomniaSalt> yes, tend to notice that too at times
<insomniaSalt> oss alsa jack pa
<insomniaSalt> but being able to use Mixx is not really the point, it's just a good example of an application that behaves bad
<insomniaSalt> (imho)
<zequence> An application that behaves bad with jackdbus, not PA, if you're using the jack interface, that is
<zequence> There are other examples of jack apps that work poorly on one jack, and better on the other
<insomniaSalt> and mix is also an example of an application that people using this setup from hell expect to work (same as flash)
<zequence> The PA interconnection is not a big deal
<zequence> The module is quite stable
<zequence> There are some bugs related to PA and jack, which do not really have to do with the module itself
<zequence> In some situations audio might get blocked as a result of using jack with PA, adjusting settings, starting/stopping, etc.
<zequence> There could of course be something in the module that causes some weirdness, but in most cases, I would say the bugs are either in PA itself, or jack itself, not in the module
<insomniaSalt> with that jackd2/module setup I'd be happier if stuff wasnt crashing all the time :-)
<zequence> Badly written jack apps can make jack crash. In that case, it's the app that is bad
<insomniaSalt> yes!
<zequence> I don't experience any crashing with jack2 and PA
<zequence> But, I'm not using Mixxx
<insomniaSalt> crashing the client software that is, not pa or jackd
<zequence> ..aside from the jack bug, when trying to stop jack (on 12.04, and 12.10)
<zequence> Right now, I'd like to write emails to every programmer in the world, and tell them: please, please, please - use standards!!!!
<zequence> I want to export a session from Cubase to Ardour
<zequence> There's a tool for it, but I can't get it working
<insomniaSalt> there is an xkcd about that
<insomniaSalt> where it says,  now because of you we have n+1 standards
<insomniaSalt> :-)
<insomniaSalt> meh cubase :(
<zequence> creating custom formats should lead to jail sentences
 * insomniaSalt is a freetard somehow
<zequence> Maybe what I should do is write a OMF to ardour converter
<zequence> omf is actually an open standard
<zequence> ardour just needs to have it implemented
<insomniaSalt> people will always try an be evil
<insomniaSalt> like that tetra pak machine patent that forbade people other than the proprietor to produce paks that could be filled with these machines
<insomniaSalt> until they were sued for trust
<insomniaSalt> abuse of dominant market position is what that's called
<zequence> In this case, the proprietary application does support the open format, while the free one does not
<insomniaSalt> go, implement! 
<insomniaSalt> :)
<insomniaSalt> but then, how often does the open format specification and reference implementation by steinberg change?
<insomniaSalt> if you're unlucky twice a week
<insomniaSalt> have fun trying to keep up 
<insomniaSalt> (not sure about that, but possible in theory, 'pseudo-open' standards existed before)
<zequence> It's not a Steinberg format
<zequence> It's an open format that many DAWs support
<zequence> Includign Steinbergs various DAWs, Pro Tools, It think pretty much all the big ones
<insomniaSalt> avid, ic.
<zequence> As long as you can get the files into their right places, with tempos, etc.
<insomniaSalt> there seem to be different 'flavours' of OMF, too :-)
<zequence> Yeaaah!!. Now I get to do export one track at the time!
<insomniaSalt> >tool for it
<insomniaSalt> aatranslator?
<zequence> I already have a tool, that doesn't work
<zequence> ArdourXchange
<zequence> I got it to work last year, but not now
<insomniaSalt> learned a lot more, but now my headache got much worse, time to stop and find something to eat
<holstein> !proaudio
<ubottu> For information on professional audio tools in Ubuntu, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ProAudioIntro/1204
<zequence> holstein: Alright
<holstein> right! :)
<holstein> zequence: knome hooked us up
<zequence> Great
<zequence> Damn, I nearly had it working
<zequence> holstein: For now, I just included the 1204 page into the page that !proaudio links to
<zequence> !proaudio
<ubottu> For information on professional audio tools in Ubuntu, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ProAudioIntro
<zequence> So, same as before now
<zequence> You need to refresh, to see the change
<holstein> zequence: i like it
<zequence> Been updating the kernel for a while now. Every 3 weeks, or, a little more often. Sometimes there's a sudden critical update.
<zequence> A run a script, and then, I try not mess up the manual bit, where I edit the changelog
<zequence> Messed it up three times already :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-27
<zequence> I'm working on some kind of format for our wikis
<zequence> This is a candidate for the landingpage at wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/LandingPageStaging
<zequence> There are two goals with this format
<zequence> 1. minimal, and concise. 2. Advertise for user contribution
<zequence> Those are the two things I'd like to focus on this year
<zequence> Does it look good? Is it missing something?
<zequence> All the links aren't doing much yet, but just thinking of the layout and content
<Len-nb> zequence_, I like the wiki you mentioned. Only one thing and I am not sure if it is cultural or not
<Len-nb> But the community icon in red says beware or stay out or warning or something like that.
<Len-nb> red means danger or stop to many people. Green is safe and go.
<Len-nb> (could be just me) Anyone else look at it?
<Len-nb> Anyway other than that it looks good.
<zequence_> Len-nb: Makes sense. I was actually thinking it looked a little commy :)
<zequence> Yep, that looks much better. Still not sure of the side menu https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/LandingPageStaging
<zequence> I'd like to do more work on the row of apps too, to make it nicer. 
<zequence> Just had an idea. I'd like us to have a SRU PPA, where we keep updates to packages that we are meaning to SRU
<zequence> Or, in the process of SRUing
<smartboyhw> zequence, what do ya think about the new UDS system?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I haven't read about it thoroughly yet
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW next UDS is actually next Tuesday-Wednesday...
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yeah :). Just read through the mail
<smartboyhw> zequence, that
<smartboyhw> is real nuts
 * smartboyhw doesn't like it holding on 16:00 UTC
<smartboyhw> IM ASLEEP!!
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's not the same thing as being there in person. You really do get more out of it, if you're there
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<zequence> And in this respect, i feel it's a little sad. It'll be less expensive this way
<smartboyhw> zequence, basically two reasons: 1. Canonical doesn't want to sponsor (at all) and 2. Canonical wants to get Ubuntu non-LTSed
<zequence> I suppose the plus is that more people will feel apart of the event
<zequence> It'll be more open, but not as powerful
<smartboyhw> zequence, the problem is: It makes Ubuntu contributors' friendship go.....
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW nice Wiki landing page:)
<zequence> It's hard estimating what will happen now. With the Ubuntu phone, they seem to be taking a huge step away from the community
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep
<zequence> I just hope the phone will be free, in the sense that I control what it does to the last bit
<smartboyhw> zequence, ;)
<zequence> I mean, maybe not away from the community, but away from the current type of community
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep
<zequence> It's not bad to mix commercial with free, as long as one has the total freedom to be totally free
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<zequence> This way, it'll benefit everyone
<smartboyhw> +1
<zequence> As the Ubuntu phone gest more attention, so will the Ubuntu desktop
<zequence> This is actually a chance for us to start thinking a little bigger
<smartboyhw> zequence, another thing that is stupid is that they used Google+ Hangouts
<zequence> I mean, we should do that anyway
<zequence> smartboyhw: Why is that bad?
<smartboyhw> zequence, it can only enable 10 people at a time
<zequence> really?
<smartboyhw> zequence, although IRC will also be supported I would want video conversation
<zequence> 10 at the time, discussing, and zillions following, I suppose
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep
<zequence> I guess 10 is enough. You don't want to see more faces than that anyway
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<zequence> Would be confusing
<zequence> 13.04 will be the first Ubuntu Studio release with fairly good jack PA interaction. It works fine, if you don't do anything out of the ordinary
<zequence> That gives at least me the courage to promote it well
<zequence> And we're also adding a lot of other apps this cycle
<zequence> For the other workflows
<smartboyhw> zequence, clap clap clap clap
<zequence> For 14.04 I want the desktop to be excellent. With all the tools in place that we've been talking about
<zequence> But first, we need to get more people involved. And that is my main mission this whole year
<smartboyhw> zequence, you got Planet Ubuntu sorted out?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, but I haven't started posting anything
<zequence> I'll wait until later
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK:)
<smartboyhw> Hi len_1304 you know about the new UDS arrangement?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-28
<len_1304> micahg, wondering if you have an eta for releasing ubuntustudio-default-settings.
<micahg> hrmf...:(  let me try to do it in the morning
<micahg> sorry, been real busy here
<len_1304> I understand. It just leaves me stuck for now.
<len_1304> That would complete me for 13.04
<micahg> sorry, I'll try to get you unstuck tomorrow
<micahg> or tonight if I can squeeze it in
<len_1304> If not, thats ok too.
<ttoine> hi all
<ttoine> zequence, hello
<ttoine> if you are interested, I asked some weeks ago (at the end of 2012) for a licence to sell Ubuntu Studio branded stuff. And I get an answer
<ttoine> We have to chat about that with Scott
<falktx> you mean canonical?
<falktx> afaik UbuntuStudio is a canonical brand
<len_1304> smartboyhw, Re, UTS... I will be at work that whole time. It seems it is more for full time people.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, OK
<smartboyhw> len_1304, 
<smartboyhw> ^
<len_1304> smartboyhw, I got it thanks.
<ttoine> falktx, yes, I get a licence from Canonical
<ttoine> the aim would not be to make a business, but to let our users have branded stuff
<smartboyhw> ttoine, license of what!?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, licence for ubuntu studio branded stuff to sell
<ttoine> t-shirt, stickers, caps, etc..
<ttoine> mugs ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, what the!!?!?!?!
<smartboyhw> That's GREAT@
<ttoine> yeah
 * smartboyhw congrats ttoine 
<ttoine> I was waiting for an answers for 3 or 4 monthes, I has almost forgotten my request ;-)
<ttoine> so now we have to fill the form to complete the request, but it is on the rails
<smartboyhw> :)
<ttoine> smartboyhw, yes, ;-)
<ttoine> and of course, to chat about what to sell, who does it, and where
<ttoine> so maybe I am not a packager nor a programmer, but I can be useful too !
 * ttoine is very proud of that !
<smartboyhw> ttoine, well of course:)
<holstein> ttoine: i remember scott asked about a 3 cycles ago
 * smartboyhw is not a programmer of packager (IN HERE) but he can be useful too with QA
<smartboyhw> holstein, 3 CYCLES ago!?
<holstein> ^^asked if we could sell things for support
<smartboyhw> Now we can
<smartboyhw> ttoine, make sure you send an e-mail to everyone
<smartboyhw> zequence, holstein ttoine len_1304 so do we need an UDS session for the one next week?
<smartboyhw> The start of the discussion of non-LTS releases deletion: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-February/036537.html
<smartboyhw> UDS time: Next Tuesday, 14:00-20:00 UTC
<zequence> I suppose we should whip something up for UDS
<ttoine> when is UDS ? maybe we can produce a video or something like that ?
<zequence> ttoine: It's next week
<ttoine> wow
<zequence> They're keeping a UDS every 3 months now, and only over the network
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> no more great meeting ?
<zequence> Seems like it
<ttoine> was too expensive, I guees
<ttoine> guess
<zequence> Maybe they're too busy with the phone too
<ttoine> yes, possible
<ttoine> I just get my new Galaxy Nexus
<zequence> ttoine: How's your new life?
<ttoine> I wait a bit to read some feedback anbd then will install the Ubuntu on my phone
<ttoine> zequence, well
<ttoine> thanks
<ttoine> there is a big challenge for me
<ttoine> I have to make a new portal for the community of Bonitasoft.com and .org
<ttoine> and animate it
<ttoine> at the moment, the community is less and less active every monthn that is a big problem
<ttoine> and the company would like to create new so people can contribute
<ttoine> very interesting.
<zequence> ttoine: Yes, sounds interesting
<ttoine> I was supposed to use Drupal to develop the stuff, but the more I spend time playing with it, the less I think it will be possible to use it
<ttoine> it is a very modern office: no paper, no phone (skype and google hangout/gtalk), every body has a laptop, a second screen, a headset
<ttoine> you can come at any time, if you do the hours you are paid for
<ttoine> etc.
<ttoine> and the boss is a great man
<ttoine> people are nice and funny
<ttoine> I can't imagine a better to work
<ttoine> from the windows, we have the view on the mountain (ok, on the highway, too ;-))
<zequence> ttoine: Sounds fantastic :). Particularly about the hours :P
<ttoine> zequence, I can't be late ;-)
<ttoine> so, there are some counterparts, of course
<ttoine> great personnal investment, find a house in the area, etc.
<zequence> I wish I could afford a house right now
<zequence> Will need to wait another 5-10 years
<zequence> ttoine: Expensive to buy a house there?
<ttoine> zequence, I won't have the money to buy, I think
<ttoine> the last 4 years, I did only simple jobs
<ttoine> but it is possible to find houses around 100 kâ¬ and 150 kâ¬. It is less expensive than Lyon
<zequence> I'm just reading the mail list
<zequence> There might even not be a Raring release as it looks now
<ttoine> wow
<zequence> ttoine: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-February/036537.html
<zequence> I think I might prefer a rolling release
<zequence> And perhaps the possiblity of custom releases
<zequence> For flavors
<zequence> I'm too tired today to think clearly about this. Will look at it tomorrow
<ttoine> I agree with you
<ttoine> interessant but it is the end of the day too
<zequence> For us a custom release makes more sense than to many other OSs
<zequence> We can say this release has everything you need, and is solid for production use
<zequence> But, it would be better if we could also use older versions for some packages, if there are regressions
<zequence> We don't really have the manpower to do this though
<micahg> zequence: you can't since you won't get security support
<zequence> micahg: I'm think more like a snapshot of the rolling release
<zequence> Some people prefer not to do any updates, once they have a solid system
<zequence> Those who prefer constant updates, might as well just use the rolling release as is
<zequence> The LTS is supposed to be that of course
<zequence> Solid, I mean
<micahg> zequence: unless one's machine in unplugged from any network source, one needs security updates
<zequence> micahg: For a studio machine, that might be the case.
<zequence> But, even with a rolling release, one should be able to only do security updates
<micahg> security updates aren't marked as such ATM in the devel release
<zequence> true
<zequence> micahg: Is it possible to do version control in seeds?
<zequence> Like forcing an older version of a package
<zequence> I would only consider that as an option in rare cases though
<zequence> wb kubotu 
<micahg> zequence: no
<zequence> I suppose we just need to be active testing applications that end up in -proposed, and stop those from being released which are presenting bad regressions, until fixed
<micahg> no, -proposed ATM in the devel release isn't meant to be run
<zequence> hmm, Debian Unstable I suppose is a sort of -proposed, isn't it?
<zequence> While Testing is the development release
<zequence> I guess the work should be done there already then
<micahg> well, yes and no, unstable is meant for packages that devs think are ready for testing, but they get bake time before they migrate (and are possibly blocked on RC bugs or other packages)
<zequence> I'd rather stop packages there already, if they did present some weird bugs. If they end up in a Ubuntu rolling release, without any question, that would be the only way to keep the rolling release clean
<Len-nb> zequence, micahg I would like to see two streams in a rolling release. Justbtt
<Len-nb> just the same as the kernel has odd and even runs
<Len-nb> Not sure how that would work though or if the logistics are doable.
<zequence> There needs to be some sort of pre-release buffer for applications anyhow
<zequence> I'm thinking we could offer to do QA on some of those which are important for us
<zequence> That's really all that is important for us
<zequence> And when it comes to our own packages, it's really just up to us when and how we do a release
<zequence> If we can do a snapshot whenever we want, that would be good
<zequence> The DVD is two things. 1. it's live. 2. it's an installation medium
<zequence> One would like the live DVD to be great
<zequence> And a quality ensured snapshot could do taht
<zequence> Also, we could time that with a new release of our own stuff
<zequence> So, more or less like making a custom release
<zequence> Len-nb: You beat me to it
<zequence> Len-nb: on the mail list. I was going to answer the guy later
<zequence> Len-nb: btw, not that it matters at this point, but Nautilus is getting back its tree view in list view for Gnome 3.8 :)
<zequence> That was the only detail besides search that seemed crazy to me leaving out
<zequence> But, searching for files is done quite easily in the DASH too
<zequence> ..or should be, I mean
<Len-nb> zequence, so long as thunar is not broken I would prefer to use that. The user can install nautilus if they want.
<Len-nb> Search for files ... there is a search in both nautilus and thunar, but both only seen to work in the current directory.
<Len-nb> It is handy to find an item that is not in the window, but that is about it. Also it only searches starting at the beginning of the file name. So search for in would get intro.txt, but not bin or win.
<zequence> Len-nb: Yeah, I wasn't for installing Naitilus in the first place. I was just conveying some news. Not often you see a feature pop out and in like that
<zequence> Len-nb: So, this search app for XFCE, is it good now?
<zequence> I mean, the one you were adding
<Len-nb> It is awaiting release. I just wanted it added before feature freeze... though it sounds like that may no longer matter.
<zequence> Len-nb: Yeah :)
<Len-nb> The version I have been testing works really well, it is just waiting to be released.
<Len-nb> Like we are waiting for -settings
<zequence> Len-nb: The channels argument is added to the Ubuntu source by a patch I did
<zequence> So, it's coming out shortly
<zequence> ..but that patch will have no reason to stay, if there's no raring release
<zequence> unless of course, one is in a hurry to get it into a daily
<Len-nb> zequence, the response to adding krita has been very good. I was hoping to ask Scott's opinion, but he seems to be MIA just now.
<zequence> Len-nb: I say just add it
<Len-nb> I would like to see channels= added as soon as can be. For pro work that is what makes pa-jack useful.
<zequence> Len-nb: It seems like one of the big ones
<Len-nb> Ok, I will add it tonight.
<zequence> Len-nb: The reason for my post on the mail list about channels was to talk over the Pulse maintainers to include mypatch for that
<Len-nb> So it will show in tomorrows daily
<Len-nb> They have already added channels so far as I know, it just hasn't made it to release yet
<zequence> Len-nb: I've added that commit as a patch to the Ubuntu source. Its' in
<Len-nb> The online docs even already show it there.
<zequence> It's not released yet though
<Len-nb> Have you added a line to the usage output?
<zequence> I'm adding two patches. One to enable the channel config, and the other to make it default to 2
<zequence> I'm having trouble getting the second one in, which is why I posted
<zequence> To get some data. I already know stereo is the best default
<zequence> Just needed to convince someone else about it
<Len-nb> If the proposed change of config directories happens it won't matter. US can default to 2 channels.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-01
<zequence> Len-nb: The stereo by default patch was just accepted for pulseaudio as a result of the discussions on LAU
<zequence> I've begun buildint the linux-lowlatency packages now as well, so, pretty much taking over the procedure completely now. Means my packages are getting sponsored, and hopefully that could lead to upload rights in the future
<ttoine> scott-work, did you see in the log that I can have a licence to sell ubuntu studio branded stuff for free ?
<ttoine> imagine some official t-shirt, baseball caps or mugs we can do
<scott-work> ttoine: no, i didn't see that. that is outstanding news! how did this occur?
<ttoine> I send an email to get a licence some monthes ago
<ttoine> I almost forget it
<ttoine> and this week, I get an answer with a "sorry to be late"
<ttoine> and they asked to confirm my interest for such a licence
<ttoine> I confirmed, explain it would be great for the community to have stuff like that
<ttoine> and they say ok. trhey send me a .doc form to fill
<scott-work> wow. very cool. i'm glad they did that
<ttoine> scott-work, the question is: if I or we have a licence, what is the best place to create/sell merchandising without spending too much time on it, with good quality goods, and international delivery...
<zequence> scott-work: we should discuss what to do next week at UDS. It's Tue/Wed, so perhaps Mon would be a good day
<zequence> Len-nb: Actually, the patch ended up in the upstream source, credit to David H
 * smartboyhw says hi to scott-work 
<smartboyhw> zequence, to discuss what?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Just what we should focus on during UDS, and make sure we are on top of whatever changes are being discussed, etc
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<smartboyhw> BTW let me remind you of our schedule:P
<smartboyhw> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-flavor-ubuntustudio.html
<smartboyhw> Basically we failed at workflows:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: actually, I don't find that status to be very representative for our work this cycle
<smartboyhw> zequence, well then should we update it (a bit)?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll take care of that, np
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<zequence> smartboyhw: But, it's true. We should prepare for the 13.04 release
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<scott-work> ttoine: that is a good question. we could look at what xubuntu or other non-ubuntu projects (e.g. linux outlaws) use. we certainly want to make sure we can cover most locales, not just EU/US
<scott-work> zequence: we certainly can discuss what we are doing. but then again, we could also discuss not discussing anything until may ;)
<scott-work> smartboyhw: good morning. how are you doing?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, :)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, what's ttoine's question BTW?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: <ttoine> scott-work, the question is: if I or we have a licence, what is the best place to create/sell merchandising without spending too much time on it, with good quality goods, and international delivery...
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ah
<scott-work> i have heard/read people suggesting cafepress, et al in cases like this, but then i have also heard that the quality is not optimal
<ttoine> I am open to any idea. I think that I will ask some of the artist in my friends
<ttoine> and look too where it is possible to create small quantities of stuff
<ttoine> I don't think we will sell thousands / month :-)
<smartboyhw> ttoine, :)
<scott-work> if i were to wear a ubuntu studio tshirt, hoodie, polo shirt, whatever, i would certainly want to have a nice piece of merchandise, not somehting that looks like a thrift shop hand-me down
<smartboyhw> scott-work, /me wants a ubuntu studio tshirt
<smartboyhw> ttoine, ^
<scott-work> ttoine: another good point
<smartboyhw> :P
<zequence> Len-nb: A new release of PA coming with my patches, within a day or two
<ttoine> scott-work, at the moment, I only have internet at work
<ttoine> so I won't suggest any solution this week ;-)
<ttoine> I am ttoine, I am not alone, I don't forget, expect me ;-)
<scott-work> hehe :)
<smartboyhw> heh heh
<len_1304> scott-work, we are adding krita to the mix, that ok? Seems much more advanced than mypaint
<len_1304> zequence, I didn't get to it last night...
<scott-work> len_1304: i think that is a really good application for graphics/drawings. agreed that it is much better than mypaint. and we already ship quite a few kde libraries already with k3b and kdenlive
<len_1304> k3b has problems with wodem, works better with cdrecord... I have ruined a few DVDs before I gave up on it and used brasero.
<len_1304> I am told, the difference is that wodem does not deal well with on the fly work, but is ok if an image is written to disk first.
<scott-work> there are people who really, really like k3b. i admit that i prefer brasero over k3b. i have found that brasero crashed less and i prefer the cleaner/simpler interface over k3b
<zequence> len_1304: Did you solve the issue on why k3b was included?
<len_1304> No.
<zequence> It seems like no one actually wanted it in, so perhaps we should discuss removing it?
<scott-work> kdenlive might be bringing it in, no?
<smartboyhw> So what's the discussion?
<len_1304> Anyway, I need to get going. be back in 5 or 6 hours.
 * smartboyhw has missed the conversatino
<smartboyhw> s/conversatino/conversation/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "has missed the conversation"
<zequence> smartboyhw: Just follow the log
<len_1304> kdenlive is not dependant on k3b
<zequence> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5576526/
<len_1304> It did show up at the same time as we added kdenlive though, so it may be a subdep... but If I look at the list of what is dependant on k3b... none are installed.
<holstein> i have to say, i am a +1 for virtual UDS's
<holstein> theres no way i could ever afford to take that kind of time off and go in person
<zequence> There's a discussion about rolling release on http://ubuntuonair.com/
<zequence> And #ubuntu-on-air
<zequence> holstein: len_1304 scott-work ^
<holstein> i dont think it could happen til the next LTS
<holstein> i can see both sides..
<zequence> holstein: They are talking about making raring the next LTS
<zequence> Right now, nothing is for sure
<zequence> raring would then be not released until 14.04
<holstein> wow!
<holstein> thats epic
<holstein> quite a change of plans
<holstein> i think the every 6 month thing does a few things.. builds buzz, and gets folks hustling
<zequence> holstein: They're talking about monthly snapshots, but I'm more in favor of the Debian model
<zequence> LTS == stable. Rolling == testing
<zequence> And then, you'd have an experimental repo for packages that need to be smoke tested before releasing on the rolling release
<holstein> yeah, kind of the best of everything.. they could still even release something every 6 months intead of "release when its ready"
<zequence> Well, the rolling release would be like a new release every day
<zequence> While the LTS is great for high security production systems
<holstein> zequence: i knew you could knock that issue out.. 
<zequence> It's not easy when the system might have been messed up by a lot of custom work
<zequence> A fresh install does help
<zequence> Then you know what you are working with
<zequence> Really the live DVD is that too
<holstein> i know... i hate that for them.. like that mint user last night
<holstein> i like having the live DVD to test against
<zequence> Yeah. We could have a script for them. "Here, use this, and paste the output from the text file that appeared in your home folder"
<zequence> then we know what they have
<holstein> yeah.. jack versions and ppa's added
<zequence> holstein, len_1304, scott-work, I'd like to put all the audio metas into one. Any objections? 
<zequence> We've talked about this before, but I'm not sure what the consensus was
<zequence> I'm going through our blueprints, and looking at what we still have time for
<zequence> I'm setting a bunch of stuff to postponed. One could still decide to do some of those
<scott-work> zequence: i don't disagree
<zequence> scott-work: I'm not sure I get how seeds work. STRUCTURE I think I do get. But, how about the actual metas? How are they created?
<zequence> In each file for a meta, there's also a dependency for the meta itself
<zequence> I mean, say the file "generation" in seeds
<zequence> It has ubuntustudio-generation as a dependency
<zequence> But, isn't the file "generation" what is creating the "ubuntustudio-generation" meta in the first place?
<zequence> Or is there something more?
<holstein> zequence: you mean, keep them seperate, but have one for everything as well?
<zequence> holstein: No. Just keep one meta for all of them
<zequence> Or, rather, one task for all of them
<holstein> zequence: i can get with whatever is easiest to maintain
<zequence> It's probably more of a pedantism thing. I'm thinking it should be simple
<zequence> But I also like having options
<zequence> When installing from a netinstall (alternate), or in the future, when installing from our live DVD, one has options
<zequence> I'm thinking one per workflow is enough
<zequence> hmm, I'm looking through the source package ubuntustudio-meta
<zequence> I'm thinkint that's where the metas happen, and a bunch of other things
<zequence> There's some old stuff there that should be cleaned out
<zequence> hmm, the seeds is only for the ISO, right?
<zequence> I'm not getting this
<scott-work> zequence: i'm looking for my previous notes on adding the metas, just a minute
<scott-work> zequence: see if this helps at all: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Modifying_Seeds
<zequence> scott-work: Thanks. This makes sense
<zequence> The meta was the missing link there
<zequence> I was just going through it
<scott-work> cool :)  i'm glad that helped, i wasn't really sure it owuld
<scott-work> would
<Len-nb> zequence, the seeds are for the ISO creation, the metas are for using with netinstall/mini.iso.
<Len-nb> I agree one audio meta. Or if there is any split... one for >>CLI stuff and one for gui.
<Len-nb> But as it is, jack is CLI but it still drags in X libs anyway.
<zequence> Actually, metas don't show in a netinstall just because they are metas. I think the seeds are what does that
<zequence> It's not metas on the netinstall. It's tasks
<Len-nb> Could be.
<Len-nb> A note of easy transition :)
<zequence> I'm not fully on the boat with how this works, but from how it looks, the meta is being auto updated form the contents in seeds
<Len-nb> use one of the meta names we already have
<zequence> But the meta has some controlling files in it too
<Len-nb> No it is not auto.
<zequence> Len-nb: Do the metas differ from the seeds?
<Len-nb> When the seeds are up dated an email goes to micahg and he rolls the metas
<Len-nb> The seeds take effect on the next ISO roll
<zequence> Len-nb: Yes, but the way they are updated is through germinate
<zequence> Again, not fully in sync with how it works, but germinate is a program that translates seed files
<Len-nb> I have had the ISO correct and the metas not for weeks after changing the seeds.
<zequence> I see
 * micahg noticed the last update, it's on the list for me to upload :)
<Len-nb> I will do another add today micahg , so wait till you see it.
<Len-nb> It will be graphics.
<micahg> ok, sure, it won't be until Sat night at the earliest
<zequence> micahg: Could you let me in on how you roll the meta
<micahg> I need to update my chroots and -settings is hopefully before it
<Len-nb> Ya that makes sense
<zequence> micahg: I was looking at the rules file and it just does a germinate things
<micahg> zequence: pull-lp-source ubuntustudio-meta, cd into the dir, ./update, debuild -S -sa
<micahg> oops
<micahg> before debuild cd into the new dir
<micahg> modify changelog as needed, then debuild
<micahg> and I compare the old and new before upload to make sure nothing extraneous or undocumented is listed and I test build as well
<zequence> micahg: And it updates from seeds? How does that happen?
<micahg> yeah, that's germinate magic, you need some things installed
<zequence> micahg: If I change the metas, I only need to edit debian/control ?
<zequence> As well as the seed files..
<zequence> I'm thinking of baking some metas together
<micahg> zequence: for what?
<micahg> debian/control only needs to be modified if there's a new meta or dependency not recognized in the seed
 * micahg has to run right now, will check backscroll
<Len-nb> zequence, if we use one of the current metas for audio and just move all the audio stuff into it. Things will go pretty much automatically.
<Len-nb> If we change the name we have a new meta... which is what messed things up when we added publishing and photography
<zequence> Len-nb: There's a slight difference between some of the metas. ubuntustudio-audio only depends on metas right now. That is the one we'll use namewise, but it will probably need to be altered
<zequence> There are two parts in this. The seeds and the metas. We'll just need to get both right
<Len-nb> zequence, if we put all the apps from recording, generation, audio plugin into audio common it should work ok.
<zequence> I don't think audio-common is a meta at all
<zequence> It's just a seed list that other seed lists include or something
<Len-nb> Just a seed?
<zequence> The other audio metas, -generation -recording and such are built from the seeds. 
<Len-nb> It looks like it ends up as ubuntustudio-audio... but I should check
<zequence> Len-nb: Take a look at the seed "recording"
<zequence> And compare that with the depends of ubuntustudio-recording
<zequence> What you see is the sum of audio-common and recording in seeds
<zequence> Now, there's description in the top of some seed files, and I'm taking that they can make those seeds into tasks for a netinstall ISO
<zequence> But, the actual meta is created from the ubuntustudio-meta debian source
<zequence> Or, the metas
<zequence> Len-nb: If you take a look at the source for ubuntustudio-meta: pull-lp-source ubuntustudio-meta
<zequence> in debian/control
<zequence> There's some info on the metas
<zequence> And note the function "germinate" everywhere
<zequence> It's related to seeds
<zequence> Also debian/rules, which is what holds instructions on how to build the package, only has one line
<Len-nb> Well in that case it looks like we have to create a new meta.
<zequence> Or modify ubuntustudio-audio, and remove the others
<Len-nb> in which case I would suggest creating it, but not removing what we have till the new one is released.
<zequence> I was thinking of making this change before feature freeze
<zequence> I'm going to test it first
<Len-nb> That way we will not end up with iso that are missing some apps.
<zequence> It's just a matter of getting it right. And we have time. It's better we do it now, when we still can
<zequence> After feature freeze, we should not be making any changes anymore
<zequence> Just fix bugs
<zequence> I'll dabble a bit, and test in my own PPA
<zequence> I think it would be good for us to start rolling our own packages
<zequence> And have them sponsored
<zequence> Eventually, we should try becoming ubuntu devs and have upload rights
<micahg> +1 to sponsored uploads, metas usually aren't the best place to start though
<zequence> micahg: We're going to put some metas together into one. Currently ubuntustudio-audio is only depending on other metas, but we want it to be the only audio meta from now on. And we want a seed file for it, one which also is a task on the netinstall ISO
<zequence> From what I understand, the metas are created in debian/control
<micahg> ok, so that needs changes in the seed, meta, and live-build AIUI
<zequence> live-build?
<Len-nb> micahg, this would mean creating a new seed/meta and then deleting some others after that.
<zequence> I think I get how I am to do it in seeds. STRUCTURE and the individual files
<zequence> But, I'm not getting how the metas are built. The germinate part
<micahg> zequence: yeah
<micahg> zequence: hrm, I missed that part before, I'd reference the change that cjwatson made for the publishing/photography metas last time
<zequence> I'm thinking the files in the root of the meta are auto generated
<Len-nb> micahg, if there is already a meta called ubuntustudio-audio and we create a seed file called audio is that going to conflict?
<zequence> micahg: Ok. I'll look that up. Should be easy enough
<micahg> Len-nb: no, it'll just go from a metapackage to an actually seed based metapackage
<Len-nb> That should be no trouble to do it that way then.
<Len-nb> micahg,  The change I was going to do is done, BTW.
<Len-nb> BZR has changed... it asks for the key in a dialog now, used to be commandline.
<micahg> no, that's gpg agent, are you in Xfce or some other DE?
<micahg> err..ssh agent
<micahg> glad that bug was finally fixed if in Xfce
<Len-nb> xubuntu
<Len-nb> I went from Studio 12.04 to xubuntu 13.04 (or whatever ;)
<Len-nb> P to R I guess.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-02
<zequence> Seems like ardour3 is coming out anytime now http://ardour.org/
<zequence> I'm pretty much done reorganizing the help wiki https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> Also, the "community" links in the leftmost part of the header is done too
<Len-nb> Another of my brain storms: http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/menu.html 
<Len-nb> be sure to refresh.
<Len-nb> It does work, not sure if it is needed though.
<Len-nb> Sure cuts down memory  and cpu use.
<zequence> Len-nb: I'm not sure I understand. What are you doing there exactly?
<Len-nb> Taking the DE out of the equasion.
<Len-nb> ssh -Y someone@audio
<Len-nb> xfce-panel as happens
<Len-nb> What it does is get rid of all the graphics card Irqs, All the KB and mouse irqs.
<Len-nb> any USB irqs (unless used for audio IF)
<zequence> I guess that could be interesting in some situations. I'd just like to point out that some distro releases, thanks to the kernel, and other details, have been extremely reliable when it comes low latencies
<zequence> Even with quite a lot of possible interference
<Len-nb> It allows any kernel in the audio machine while allowing a stock kernel in the desktop.
<Len-nb> Yes, a lot of distros can work quite well.
<Len-nb> Then the user goes and gets a new MB.
<Len-nb> Not a cheap one mind, but most of the new ones do not have both a mouse and KB port.
<Len-nb> they rely on USB devices.
<Len-nb> USB devices, especially mixed with a USB audio IF tend to cause trouble.
<Len-nb> Even though the newer chipsets seem to support  48 to 96 irqs, The implementation seems to group them. Often putting the one PCI slot on the same irq as 5 other things.
<Len-nb> I am not only including those who always have trouble not matter what system or OS.
<zequence> It's a little bit like trying to turn a Volkswagen into a Porsche, isn't it?
<zequence> Even though, it used to be possible to put a Porsche engine into a Volkswagen :P
<Len-nb> In general it was possible to get better performance out of the VW.... at least compaired to the low end porsche
<Len-nb> A lot of the parts were interchangeable too
<Len-nb> But I think there is a point were merely throwing more horse power at something is not the best answer.
<Len-nb> It is more like comparing a sports car to the earlier American muscle cars
<zequence> I'm following discussion on #kubuntu-devel currently
<Len-nb> The muscle cars had more power than the suspension could handle
<zequence> Talking about the rolling release
<Len-nb> Bet thats lively
<zequence> They're a little bigger than us. Something like 100 names in their devel channel
<zequence> I've posted on the ubuntu-devel mail list suggesting what I think is important for us. It's moderated, which is a little annoying :P
<Len-nb> zequence, would have been nice is ubuntu had decided this right after 12.04, give time to get it figured out... or even revert back if it was a real disaster
<zequence> Len-nb: It is weird of them to drop the bomb just before a release, but on the other hand, it's a mature development release by now
<zequence> And, that they do it like this makes you wonder what else they have planned
<Len-nb> I have found it pretty stable
<Len-nb> I _always_ wonder that.
<Len-nb> Ever since Unity.
<zequence> If XFCE is stable, it's not certain KDE is, or Gnome, or any other of the desktops though
<zequence> Gnome was very rough until just a few weeks ago
<zequence> Or, there was a bad bug anyway
<Len-nb> Ubuntu is about unity or server, everything else is hobby.
<zequence> Unity is based on Gnome3 though
<zequence> not gnome-shell of course
<Len-nb> Canonical has to make money first. They are income oriented
<zequence> income orientated with a mission
<Len-nb> I don't say that with any bitterness BTW.
<Len-nb> We "reap" the benefits.
<Len-nb> In general the mission aligns pretty god with ours too.
<Len-nb> good
<zequence> I don't see any dividing line between the community goals, and Canonical goals, as far as the OS goes
<zequence> So, for me, they can both push towards their own goals
<zequence> And benefit from each other
<zequence> The communities around the flavords are pretty strong
<zequence> It's a great force
<zequence> One which could potentially grow a lot more in the future, as more people get involved in development
<Len-nb> We test things in ways the desktop users wouldn't think of
<zequence> We also promote Ubuntu in areas where Ubuntu does not have much understanding
<zequence> I mean, Canonical does not..
<zequence> It may not be a big thing now, but eventually, who knows
<zequence> Now that Steam is going towards Linux, and let's say Ubuntu Studio actually grew a lot. And pro audio applications started migrating
<zequence> But, of course, if that would happen, Canonical would invest in that too
<zequence> I do think that the quality around many things is very poor
<zequence> Ubuntuone in particular
<zequence> I've been trying to upload a folder now for more than one day
<zequence> It's quite big, but with my bandwidth, it should only take a couple of hours at the most
<zequence> And, I bough some music on ubuntuone
<zequence> Still waiting for the musci after more than one month
<zequence> Or, a refund
<zequence> i had some experience with ubuntuone on Android
<zequence> wasn't working there either
<zequence> That sort of stuff you just need to get right, or it won't fly at all
<zequence> From my experience, it's not far from a joke, tbh. And, I'm still hoping they succeed with it
<holstein> !ppa
<ubottu> A Personal Package Archive (PPA) can provide alternate software not normally available in the offical Ubuntu repositories - Looking for a PPA? See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas - WARNING: PPAs are unsupported third-party packages, and you use them at your own risk. See also !addppa and !ppa-purge
<zequence> How is this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/LandingPageStaging
<zequence> There, I did it. I changed the front page for the wiki. Now both help, and wiki are redone
<len_1304> zequence, the text in the community icon is pretty small. But I am not sure what could be done about it.
<len_1304> It isn't that it looks bad
<zequence> len_1304: Yeah. I'm thinking of making the other ones smaller too
<len_1304> it just catches my eye
<len_1304> Dev could then be development
<len_1304> Hmm thats even smaller
<len_1304> Maybe develop
<zequence> Or devel. I don't know. It's art stuff, and I'm not really a graphical artist, but it does look a little weird
<len_1304> It does draw attention to itself as if it is less important
<zequence> Ok, let me make them the same size
<zequence> I think small text might work actually
<len_1304> The supermicro Motherboards look really good for low latency.
<zequence> Yeah?
<len_1304> looking at:
<len_1304> https://www.osadl.org/Individual-system-data.qa-farm-data.0.html#c4630
<len_1304> The only ones they have are running a xeon though. I wonder how they do with other processors
<len_1304> 32us latency
<zequence> Aren't those server processors, good at multiple threads?
<len_1304> The one they are using looks like two core
<len_1304> But you can get 8
<zequence> len_1304: How about that? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> Seems to work. That's the important thing
<zequence> The wiki landing page is missing some important links though
<len_1304> zequence, Ya that matches.
<len_1304> I wonder if we should have a pointer to the min.iso for net install
<len_1304> I guess we would need a doc page on how and why to use it
<zequence> That might be a good idea, yes
<len_1304> Sort of a custom install page.
<zequence> We could add that to the user guide
<zequence> And the link to the iso wherever it may seem suitable
<len_1304> The growing list of pages we should have :P
<len_1304> New pulseaudio out today.
<zequence> The only change should be the two patches
<zequence> So, should be stereo by default now then
<len_1304> That is what the config file says anyway.
<len_1304> Yup it works.
<len_1304> Jack and pulse both use less CPU  :)
<len_1304> The new catfish has not made it though.
<len_1304> Hey Lumpy how goes?
<len_1304> zequence, what does this mean:
<len_1304> Mar  2 09:10:26 studio1304 pulseaudio[1854]: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot use real-time scheduling (RR/5)(1: Operation not permitted)<
<len_1304> Mar  2 09:10:26 studio1304 pulseaudio[1854]: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >JackClient::AcquireSelfRealTime error<
<zequence> len_1304: I just saw someone saying something about -rt, PA and jack
<zequence> is PA a member of audio group?
<zequence> ..which is usually is
<zequence> Is here at least
<len_1304> Ya, it is. I have seen this before. It seems to work ok so I haven't said anything
<len_1304> It is not clear from the messages (seen in /var/log/syslog BTW) if it is a module problem or a jack problem.
<zequence> len_1304: Hang out at jack and ask petern about it
<zequence> He seems to be working a lot with that stuff
<zequence> #jack I mean
<zequence> He's the guy who made the stereo patch
<zequence> Channel config patch, I mean
<len_1304> Not the pulse channel?
<zequence> len_1304: He actually posted the same error just a few moments ago
<zequence> len_1304: You can find him there too, yes
<len_1304> Funny it is just being noticed now :)  I should have posted it a year ago. Too many other things going on.
<zequence> he made the patch that allows channel config on the module
<zequence> len_1304: where do you see that error?
<len_1304>  /var/log/syslog
<len_1304> Stop and start jack and it will be right at the end.
<zequence> It's the module anyhow
<zequence> Perhaps check with David even
<zequence> module-jack-source.c is the source part of the module code
<zequence> A funny thing happened earlier. I was making a mixdown. Exporting tracks with Ardour. With the module, every time I did that, all flash video would begin super speeding, in tempo with  Ardour
<len_1304> Yup. makes sense
<len_1304> GS resamples to the rate pulse gives it which based on the sound card (jack)
<len_1304> exporting puts jack in freerun.
<len_1304> Jack still tells pulse 48000 (or whatever)
<len_1304> zequence, qjackctl also gives funny messages that do not seem to affect operation:
<len_1304> (qjackctl.real:3196): Gtk-CRITICAL **: IA__gtk_widget_get_direction: assertion `GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)' failed
<len_1304> confusing to new users though.
<zequence> len_1304: Yeah, that looks like some GTK thing, but it's weird it comes when starting jack. 
<len_1304> Just seems to be from hovering over some of the qjackctl widgets.
<len_1304> Or maybe focusing to that window... 
 * len_1304 has focus follows mouse.
<zequence> it's probably built with debug mode too
<zequence> So, that could be it
<zequence> When I have the time, I'll go through all those, and make them non debug
<zequence> Len-nb: I was having some problems with getting lv2 plugins to work
<zequence> Len-nb: Seems like the env variable LV2_PATH had been unset
<zequence> Ah, I should just reboot into another system. I have another one here..
<zequence> Just want to check if it's just me, which I highly suspect
<Len-nb> I am playing with idjc just now. It does not like patchage.
<Len-nb> Well it may not be patchage, could just be too much going on
<Len-nb> BTW, if someone ever asks for an audio player that works well with jack, idjc is probably a good one.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-03
<zequence> One thing that is a downside mixing on Linux is the high CPU usage for a lot of the FX
<zequence> You quickly run out of CPU power
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, zequence I have just found the xubuntu setup for the settings manager.
<Len-nb> The settings manager uses another menu file just like the one for the main menu.
<Len-nb> Lump|AFK, are you there?
<shai_halud> greetings -R
<zequence> shai_halud: hi
<shai_halud> howdy 
<shai_halud> woops. we lost mick
<zequence> shai_halud: I'm going to be away for a little while. bb in 30 min or so. Meanwhile, if you want to see what we're working on, look at the bottom of this page https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/topic-flavor-ubuntustudio
<zequence> Each circle is a blueprint
<shai_halud> ok
<zequence> hover your mouse over them to see what they are called
<shai_halud> gotcha
<zequence> click them to see that blueprint. Each has a set of workitems (well, most of them)
<zequence> shai_halud: As an example, the audio workflow https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-audio
<shai_halud> and you are Kaj?
<zequence> Yea
<shai_halud> ok i see you on the leadership page
<shai_halud> er team structure
<zequence> If you under "Work Items", you see the actual tasks we want to do for that blueprint
<shai_halud> <---josh
<zequence> shai_halud: Hi Josh
<shai_halud> how much of the development team is dedicated to the web platform?
<zequence> We only have one guy working on the website theme. He's the lead of the Xubuntu team - knome
<zequence> But, we have a PR team, which is allowed to post on it
<shai_halud> ok. just curious. I have some minor web develoment history
<zequence> The source for the theme is in launchpad, so it's avaliable if one needs to make changes. 
<shai_halud> is it wiki based?
<zequence> We don't have access to the server itself, and need Ubuntu ops to update it for us
<zequence> It's Wordpress
<shai_halud> ah
<zequence> bb in 30 min or so
<shai_halud> ok. i'll take a look around
<zequence> shai_halud: So, what do you think?
<shai_halud> hi there
<shai_halud> well, I am curious what types of thing you will be able to use me for
<zequence> Really anything you'd be willing to do, probably
<zequence> hi mick_ 
<mick_> hey, nice to see u
<mick_> :)
<shai_halud> is the studio roadmap graph ever going to be improved for size/readablityi?  (what is the webdev's name so i can refer to him by it?)
<zequence> shai_halud: That's why I put everything up in the overview https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PermanentBlueprintOverview
<zequence> It's not easy to read the LP page
<zequence> There's also two kinds of blueprints. Those that are permanent, and not release based. And then there are the next-release blueprints
<zequence> The permanent blueprints are done inside the Ubuntu Studio project, while the release based blueprints are done in Ubuntu
<zequence> You can see a status report for our blueprints here http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-flavor-ubuntustudio.html
<smartboyhw> Hi shai_halud :)
<zequence> Those are only the next-release blueprints
<shai_halud> so, how large is the entire ubuntustudio  dev tea, and are these portals the central location that all dev for it are kept track of?
<smartboyhw> shai_halud, 16 people i think:P
<zequence> Well, that's just the LP team
<zequence> There are lots of people who have been involved in one way or the other over the years
<shai_halud> right
<zequence> Right now, active members, how many? less than 10. Depends on how you count
<smartboyhw> There is QA (mainly me and len_1304), Documentation (mainly zequence), kernel (also mainly zequence), PR (me + ttoine + holstein + ScottL)
<smartboyhw> Probably less than 5 (really active)
<shai_halud> It will take me some time to familiarize myself with the sites and to understand what is needed. More yet, for me to determine what I will be able to help with
<zequence> Right now, we have two things to focus on. 1. making sure we are ready for the 13.04 release (we aren't sure there will be one though), 2. be active next week during UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit)
<shai_halud> I have no coding knowledge beyond basic html and css. I have used php for a CMS but it was all pre-made (drupal). That is the extent of my coding knowledge. I have a rudimentary understanding of linux systems, and google much of what I accomplish at that
<zequence> The discussion on whether or not Ubuntu should become a rolling release might get settled during UDS
<shai_halud> I will assume that whenever you say Ubuntu you mean Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> shai_halud: If you want to learn about that stuff, install the development release of Ubuntu Studio (or any other flavor), and you can go from there. I have tons of info on that
<zequence> Well, Ubuntu Studio is just another flavor of Ubuntu, so whatever Ubuntu does, will affect Ubuntu Studio
<shai_halud> I wasn't aware of it's existence
<zequence> shai_halud: The daily build of UBuntu Studio http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/
<shai_halud> I may have to scrap mint if i were to install this, or just create a persistent usb
<zequence> I have dev releases installed for both 32 and 64bit, just for testing. I also have installs for 12.10 and 12.04, both 32 and 64bit. But, the main platform I use for development, is a custom 13.04. I like to use gnome-shell
<shai_halud> I currently have mint, w7 and U.S. on this pc
<mick_> shall i mention virtual box?
<zequence> virtual box works
<shai_halud> I have it installed in both linux systems
<shai_halud> However, Ubuntu has given me issues in VB
<shai_halud> er VBox
<zequence> It's not perfect. I've had installs get corrupted
<shai_halud> (I have coder friends who hate it when I refer to Vbox as VB)
<zequence> I tried doing development using VB some time ago, but just installed on HW instead. I've got more than one machine, so it's not a big problem for me
<mick_> VB the aussie drink of the people :)
<shai_halud> I initially was going to install U.S. in a vm, but it wouldn't boot
<zequence> Installing on Virtualbox is definately better than nothing, but it's not usable for testing though
<shai_halud> Not really
<mick_> yea?
<mick_> scratch that idea then
<shai_halud> Certain tests
<zequence> You don't get access to your actual audio devices, and graphics is a bit different too
<zequence> Might be a less good idea to do development and testing on a machine you intend to use for production too
<shai_halud> I am not a professional musician. Just a hobbyist with a passion.
<zequence> Not that your HW is in danger (even if that could happen too, but not likely), just that practically, I find it to be a little messy
<mick_> lots of reformatting eh
<shai_halud> for any testing I would definitely have to clear some space out on this drive, probably set up some extended/logical partitions
<mick_> u dont have another old drive to set up on?
<shai_halud> i have 320 gigs on a dell inspiron 1545, 2g x2 cpu, 4g ram, 1g vram
<mick_> not sure how much space US takes
<shai_halud> 9 gigs
<shai_halud> base install
<mick_> laptop or desktop?
<shai_halud> this is laptop
<mick_> oh
<mick_> that makes it hard
<shai_halud> I am not afraid of gparted
<mick_> :)
<shai_halud> I have about 10 years in the linux community
<shai_halud> and I won't own a machine without it
<mick_> oh nice
<mick_> yes i dont like windows
<shai_halud> it has it's uses
<shai_halud> An os is an os
<mick_> well if you *have* to use it
<shai_halud> They all essentially do the same things
<shai_halud> Even OSX
<shai_halud> I prefer Linux
<mick_> me 2
<shai_halud> What are you currently running Mick?
<mick_> 12.10 on this machine 
<shai_halud> Likewise
<mick_> straight ubuntu
<shai_halud> Oh, not studio?
<zequence> I guess the areas we work on could be categorized into: testing, development(not nearly as code based as one would think), artwork, documentation and PR
<mick_> thats on the laptop
<zequence> smartboyhw is most involved in testing, and is particularly involved in anything to do with our ISO releases atm
<zequence> Len-nb does a lot of performance testing for audio
<mick_> cool
<shai_halud> Language is a forte of mine,, I dabble in Gimp
<mick_> gimp has its own language?
<mick_> oh i see sry
<zequence> development could be anywhere from suggesting new applications and settings, to administering our sources. One is not more important than the other
<shai_halud> Gimp is written in c and python, but it uses a language called script-fu too
<zequence> source management is more administrative, and doesn't really require much more than knowing how the system works
<mick_> oh ok
<zequence> documentation for now is all done in the wikis, but we want to have a user guide on our website too
<shai_halud> Source management. Sounds Interesting
<zequence> Well, managing sources is like, someone wants to add a new application. You get what is called the "seeds", edit a textfile, commit the change and push it
<shai_halud> How do you normally initiate new people?
<mick_> with a paddle (jokes)
<zequence> So, it's really not knowing how to code, just how to use bzr, and knowing about seeds
<zequence> Problem is, we don't get a lot of new people here. that's my main mission this year, to make sure the team grows
<shai_halud> Neither of which connect to any concept I am aware of at this time.
<shai_halud> So, a lot of people want to use it, but not a lot of people want to make it, eh?
<zequence> Needless to say, we won't hand out privileges to new people easily, but that doesn't stop anyone from doing any type of work. It's just that the way you go about it is slightly different, depending on if you have upload rights, or not
<zequence> We have a team for new developers https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-contributors
<zequence> It's a new team, and meant for new developers
<shai_halud> Well, I have administerd my own site, used svn, puTTy, Apache, mysql, and a few other things that taught me never to fiddle with things I do not understand, so have no fear. I will not linger where I have no business.
<shai_halud> I have killed my own site.... once
<zequence> I was hanging around here for a couple of years before I got to be a member of the -dev team
<shai_halud> I think I am teachable. With the right resources I might be able to learn on my own.
<shai_halud> Google simply is not enough. 
<zequence> But, the membership of individual teams is not really anything more than a practical matter
<zequence> I'll happily help anyone on the things that I know
<zequence> I'm preparing this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation
<shai_halud> I am fully aware and grateful for this already
<shai_halud> Good idea
<shai_halud> A primer that literally begins with the first steps would be nice
<zequence> There is however lots more, resource-wise. MOTU (masters of the Universe), is a Ubuntu team which work closely with Ubuntu devs
<mick_> yes i was thinking the same
<shai_halud> Every step of the way , elementary to Advanced
<zequence> they have docs, and you can also ask them for help
<shai_halud> What is the general consensus among Ubuntu-dev teams with regard to personal logging of  the irc channels?
<zequence> these channels are logged, and published on the net, so no problem there
<zequence> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<zequence> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/03/03/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<shai_halud> I use xchat, and have not enabled logging, but I am curious how well it is arranged, as I have used logs often in the past for review of topics of interest and study
<zequence> It's good to have when you might have missed a discussion
<shai_halud> No doubt
<zequence> I log everything. I'm in 50 channels or so, and have some alerts set up, so if anyone mentions certain words, I can follow what they are talking about
<zequence> Good way to make sure you aren't missing anything :)
<shai_halud> good god
<mick_> oh god
<mick_> :)
<shai_halud> 50?
<mick_> he is checking the other 49 :)
<shai_halud> That may prove much more fruitful than googling all day long
<zequence> Most channels I don't interact in much. ubuntu has channels for all sorts of things, and you usually go the right channel when you want to discuss a certain topic
<shai_halud> Right.
<zequence> #ubuntu-meeting for meetins, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-kernel, #ubuntu-release (on ISO release stuff), etc
<zequence> Then there's the audio channels #lau, #lad, #jack, #opensourcemusicians #kxstudio, etc
<zequence> I'm on some debian channels, xubuntu channels. The list grows pretty quickly
<shai_halud> As far as the packages, who determines which will be supported ?
<shai_halud> i mean front end, obviously.
<zequence> Most packages are imported directly from Debian
<zequence> So, we don't actually maintain any packages, besides our own ubuntustudio-* and linux-lowlatency
<shai_halud> and the repos?
<zequence> The repos are the same as Ubuntu
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio is just another official flavor of Ubuntu, just like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu and Mythbuntu
<shai_halud> So Debian is the fallback for both systems. And are there any other Ubuntu distros your team is involved with?
<zequence> We've imported our desktop from Xubuntu, so we work somewhat with them on desktop stuff
<shai_halud> Makes sense
<zequence> When we want to do changes to packages, we do it in Debian. They have a team for multimedia packages, called debian-multimedia
<shai_halud> I'm pleased with the choice of xfce in Studio
<shai_halud> Please tell me Unity will never be part of the Studio picture
<zequence> If for some reason we'd not be in tune with how Debian does things, there's always the possibility to craete your own version of a package, and get someone to sponsor an upload
<mick_> im on the other side of the fence, i like unity
<shai_halud> I.E. Sourceforge, ?
<zequence> I'm not going to say never about anything, I'm afraid. I might consider using multiple desktops for Ubuntu Studio, where one is the default. I use gnome-shell myself. Really up to the user
<zequence> When you want to have your own package uploaded, you can upload it to launchpad, try getting one of the Ubuntu devs to sponsor it. That person then uploads it to the Ubuntu repo
<mick_> ok guys im wacked, ill log in tomorrow ok, if i dont see u then, have a nice day
<zequence> Anyone can do this, so it's not flavor controlled, or anything
<zequence> mick_: Nice to see you, and hope to see you around
<shai_halud> Likewise Mick. Good day, or night, whichever the case may be where you are.
<shai_halud> well i guess I was too slow
<shai_halud> I am in the states, Indiana, by the way.
<zequence> I'm in Gothenburg, Sweden
<shai_halud> ~7hrs ahead of me, i think
<zequence> Scott, our project lead, and holstein_ are from US
<zequence> I think Len-nb is in Canada?
<zequence> smartboyhw is in HK
<zequence> ..Hong Kong
<shai_halud> Hong Kong?
<zequence> ttoine is in France
<zequence> astraljava in Finland ;)
<shai_halud> Hm. I didn;t think we could interact.... does he use Onion routing or something?
<shai_halud> Or has China lifted those sanctions?
<zequence> Hong Kong? I don't think they have the same problems as you have on main land China with that
<shai_halud> I personally have never met anyone from any farter eeast than India online
<shai_halud> Does PR deal with mirrors and the like?
<shai_halud> oOr is that Source Management?
<zequence> PR would be just making news, posting it, interacting with users
<zequence> We will really be needing that if we want to get more developers involved
<zequence> I need to prepare some text for that, and create a page for it on the website, and the wikis
<shai_halud> I can help in that regard. Moreso as I learn the fundamentals of the system.
<zequence> That's one area where I feel we should try to include as many as possible
<shai_halud> My spelling and grammar skills are exceptional.
<zequence> It's just about following some kind of common sense on what to post, and what not to post. Understanding you're representing Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> English is not my native language, so I can't always judge if I'm off
<shai_halud> I am a sponge for words and their meanings, and explaining them to those who do not understand  them so well comes naturally to me.
<shai_halud> I am a teacher, at heart.
<shai_halud> Though I confess; I have much to learn before I will be of any use.
<shai_halud> Are there any channels you have not told me about yet that will be valuable to me as I learn about the community?
<zequence> shai_halud: Probably not, for now. The whole scope of what's involved in making Ubuntu Studio, even if the actual work does not need to that big, is kind of big to take in. 
<shai_halud> And I am curious also about translation- is anyone on your team directly responsible for providing language packs, or does that all come straight from Debian or Ubuntu?
<zequence> We don't do any kind of translation
<zequence> We really try not to do anything outside of the multimedia workflows
<zequence> shai_halud: So, my tip is, since it seems like you do want to get your hands dirty with development, is you prepare an installation of the development release
<shai_halud> So, give me the breakdown- what aspects of the Ubuntu Studio interface and applications does your team take responsibility for?
<zequence> shai_halud: anything starting with ubuntustudio-
<shai_halud> hehe
<zequence> apt-cache search ubuntustudio-
<zequence> shai_halud: Once you have a development releas installation ready, I'll show you how to prepare it for development
<shai_halud> You did link that earlier didn't you?
<zequence> shai_halud: You can find the Ubuntu Studio releases on the side menu of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<shai_halud> I will have to make preparations for it
<zequence> bb in an hour or so. time to eat
<smartboyhw> Who is talking about Hong Kong in a bad way!?!?!?!.....
<smartboyhw> shai_halud, zequence :(
<zequence> smartboyhw: We were talking about the censorship that is effective in main land China, but I was suggesting Hong Kong is not affected in the same way
<zequence> I don't really know
<smartboyhw> zequence, in Hong Kong we don't get censorship....
<zequence> That's what I though
<smartboyhw> We get more FREEDOM
<zequence> thought*
<smartboyhw> zequence, how's your conversation with shai_halud ?
 * smartboyhw has just played a round of monopoly with his parents and won
<smartboyhw> By quite a big difference
<zequence> Very good. I'm happy when more people want to get involved
<zequence> hehe
<smartboyhw> zequence, you see: We use the World electronic versino
<smartboyhw> s/versino/version/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence, you see: We use the World electronic version"
<zequence> Oh, never heard of it
<smartboyhw> The most expensive land is Montreal
<smartboyhw> (voted by public)
<zequence> Really?
<smartboyhw> And I bought it and I built 4 houses then a hotel
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep
<smartboyhw> Basically $20M
<smartboyhw> And my Mum step onto it (LOL)
<zequence> It's total murder when you get the best spots developed
<zequence> The game finishes quickly
<smartboyhw> zequence, yes. LOL
<zequence> shai_halud: I'm putting up this page for introducing people to Ubuntu Studio development https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/JoinTheTeam
<smartboyhw> zequence, good:)
<zequence> I'll try making it useful already today, so once I'm there, any feedback would be nice
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<len_1304> Wow! that was a bit of backlog to read today zequence 
<zequence> len_1304: Yep. hopefully we can make that problem more common for us
<len_1304> The one thing I would add that we do is integration. Making available apps work and fit together, via settings or whatever.
<len_1304> So coding is not a big thing, but being willing to learn config files and commandline stuff is.
<zequence> Yep
<smartboyhw> len_1304, :)
<len_1304> There are some areas we could use translation work as well
<len_1304> Basically any of our *.desktop files for example.
<smartboyhw> len_1304, I am willing to:)
<len_1304> hello smartboyhw 
 * smartboyhw finally got a Chinese (Hong Kong) Team in Xfce
<len_1304> smartboyhw, any of our *.desktop files start with ubuntustudio and I think I keep them all in /usr/share/ubuntustudio/applications
<len_1304> They would be in the settings package.
<smartboyhw> len_1304, OK
 * smartboyhw is a packager not a seed dev:P
<smartboyhw> Or menu dev:P
<len_1304> Thats not seeds
<smartboyhw> I know
<smartboyhw> Just saying:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, I am now actually working on putting vModSynth to Debian.
<smartboyhw> :)
<len_1304> They are just text files and they have lines like $Lang=$text
<len_1304> There are only two lines to each file, one for the package name that shows in the menu, and a longer one that shows when you hover the mouse over (tool tip)
<len_1304> (two lines that need tranlation)
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> len_1304, shouldn't be hard
<smartboyhw> We set up .pot files
 * len_1304 doesn't know how those work... being spoiled by using english all his life
<smartboyhw> len_1304, I can
 * smartboyhw is a translator anyway
<len_1304> I know. You helped with catfish?
<smartboyhw> len_1304, yes
<len_1304> An example would be our ubuntustudio-help.desktop file
<len_1304> our english name is Name=Help and Documentation, but most others are just "help" for example Name[fr]=Aide
<len_1304> Name[zh_CN]=å¸®å©
<len_1304> Name[zh_TW]=å¹«å©
<len_1304> And Comment=Help and Documentation for using UbuntuStudio
<len_1304> Comment[zh_CN]=ä½¿ç¨ UbuntuStudio çå¸®å©
<len_1304> Comment[zh_TW]=å¹«å©æ¨ä½¿ç¨ UbuntuStudio
<len_1304> Mostly I just changed the word ubuntu to ubuntustudio. in all of them, but a lot of our desktop files don't have any useful translation.
<smartboyhw> yep
<smartboyhw> I will do the .pot files setup (probably tmr since I need to sleep)
<len_1304> Non- of this is urgent.
<smartboyhw> len_1304, of course:P
<smartboyhw> I will add it to a work item though
<len_1304> We have been waiting for an upload of settings for months now
<smartboyhw> len_1304, and why micahg still hasn't done it!?
<len_1304> There is some problem with the buikd process
<smartboyhw> len_1304, why?
<len_1304> I don't know.
<len_1304> micahg, has been busy with xubunut (lots of 12.04.2 work)
<len_1304> It is mostly  time thing
 * smartboyhw wonders which blueprint is to add work items about translations...
<smartboyhw> zequence, ?
<smartboyhw> len_1304, uh...
<len_1304> I suspect maybe some of the build info is out of date
<len_1304> but I don't know
<smartboyhw> W: ubuntustudio-default-settings source: out-of-date-standards-version 3.9.2 (current is 3.9.4)
<smartboyhw> E: ubuntustudio-default-settings: udev-rule-in-etc etc/udev/rules.d/40-timer-permissions.rules
<smartboyhw> The second one probably
<smartboyhw> No build error though
<len_1304> That has been there since 12.10
<smartboyhw> len_1304, oh
<len_1304> I was thinking in the debian directory
<smartboyhw> It should install under lib
 * smartboyhw says bye
<len_1304> good night
<len_1304> zequence, Two emails on the list. I think we should add the items to the blue prints.
 * len_1304 is off to play some music...
<zequence> len_1304: As I just said on the mail list, +1 on doing it the Xubuntu way
<zequence> I've added a new page on our website http://ubuntustudio.org/contribute/
<zequence> And, put out a new post http://ubuntustudio.org/2013/03/want-to-contribute-to-ubuntu-studio/
<zequence> I'll be posting on social channels and mail lists later too
<zequence> shai_halud: Hey. I prepared some pages now https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/JoinTheTeam
<micahg> len_1304: I'll hoepfully be cleaning up -settings shortly and uploading
<Len-nb> micahg, sounds great, I was going to wait till the meeting was over before asking :)
<micahg> I just fixed my chroots, now I just have to update them, then import the missing settings upload into the branch, review the changes, and upload
<Len-nb> Thank you
<Len-nb> zequence, have you tried dual monitors with your gnome3 DE?
 * Len-nb can never remember what the DE is properly called :(
<zequence> Len-nb: Happens. Been a while now, but it usually works pretty well
<zequence> Len-nb: Though, this has a lot to do with drivers
<zequence> I'm using a 40 inch LCD TV as my monitor these days, so I don't find much use with a tiny monitor
<zequence> That might have needed a smiley
<zequence> we've got more than 2000 likes on our fb page, 416 have us in their G+ circles. I wonder how many actual OS users
<zequence> Should be thousands, but is it tens, or hundreds?
<shai_halud> zequence: I have created ample space for an install. Would you prefer that i get the daily or the dev release?
<shai_halud> I am leaning toward testing
<zequence> shai_halud: the daily is a dev release
<shai_halud> Oh. Right
<zequence> Debian has more variants on that. Ubuntu really only has a development release
<shai_halud> What is more urgent for the team right now; testing or development?
<zequence> shai_halud: Well, testing I suppose. We're at the end of a development cycle, and next week there will be a feature freeze, which means no more changes to the development release, unless it's a bug fix
<zequence> shai_halud: Also, we should try finishing any important blueprint we have for this release
<shai_halud> So I just need to get one of the daily's
<zequence> shai_halud: Check out the release schedule https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentReleaseSchedule
<zequence> March 7th is feature freeze
<zequence> March 28 is Final Beta Release
<zequence> Basically we do testing all the time
<zequence> Or, should
<zequence> But, once the Beta is out, it really needs to be good
<zequence> ..if there even will be one. We don't know that right now, as they are talking about turning it to a rolling release
<zequence> Probably we'll know more in a couple of days. After UDS hopefully
<zequence> If we go towards a rolling release, that means we need to figure out how we do things from there on
<zequence> It would mean, no development release, and just a different way to plan ahead
<shai_halud>  I think I will get http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/raring-dvd-amd64.iso
<shai_halud> and the md5
<shai_halud> After I have installed, I'll be back for a little orientation.
<zequence> shai_halud: Sounds good
<shai_halud> See you in a bit
<Len-nb> shai_halud, take a look at the live session too
<shai_halud> At Launchpad?
<shai_halud> oh
<shai_halud>  you mean the disc
<shai_halud> ok
<shai_halud> I'll be using usb
<Len-nb> Ya you can boot live session or just install
<shai_halud> I'll do both
<Len-nb> Using either usb stick or disk
<zequence> Len-nb: shai_halud is installing the development release, as he's wanting to start working with us on development
<Len-nb> Yahoo!
<shai_halud> zequence: I ended up finding the right repo to updgrade LMMS to 4.14, so the 2 hrs I spent compiling 4.13 was.... a leraning experience, shall we say, only.
<shai_halud> and a learning experience too
<shai_halud> (kxstudio repo)
<shai_halud> So, whilst the raring ringtail dl's, I am off to test LMMS
<shai_halud> (taking advantage of slow connection to give me some play time :P)
<Len-nb> zequence, The reason I was asking about gnome shell and dual monitors is to see if they have the same setup as ubuntu vanilla.
<Len-nb> I want the one vanilla is using, but if they got it from G shell then that is where to start looking
<zequence> Len-nb: Don't think it's the same
<zequence> Or, how do you mean, the same?
<zequence> I don't know how that works. Ubuntu used to have the panel in both screens
<zequence> Unity, I mean
<zequence> And, does compiz/mutter have anything to with it?
<Len-nb> Not that part, but the auto side by side thing
<shai_halud> WHOA
<shai_halud> New LMMS has Chords and Scales built into Piano roll!
<shai_halud> hubba hubba
<zequence> I've posted about us looking for contributors on a bunch of places now
<zequence> Been putting this off for too long really, but you never get finished with preparing for stuff.
<zequence> shai_halud: It's EOD for me, so catch you another time :)
<shai_halud> Ok
<shai_halud> 'Night
<Len-nb> zequence_, good post
<shai_halud>  dam. I think i just accidentally cleared my scrollback... is there any way to reload it?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-24
<cub> humm is TheDrums and unit193 the same person?
<TheDrums> cub: Yes.
<TheDrums> Hypnotoad and TheDrums are also the same.
<cub> haha ok I didn't know that.
<TheDrums> Something up?
<cub> Nope I just saw the info when you joined and I thought you were two different people. :) As I have spoke to you "both" but didn't make the connection before
<TheDrums> Heh, whoops.
<cub> zequence, how the procedure for ubuntu studio testing? I've been checking the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleaseProcedure and wonder what's the usual procedure for US.
<cub> The most extensive tests start after beta 1 is released? Or do we test a lot before beta 1?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-25
<zequence> cub: As I've said before, we don't have a testing procedure
<zequence> cub: I did write an email about testing on the mail list, which explains what we need to do though
<zequence> cub: Though, we need to test the beta1 ISO. I'll make an announcement tomorrow about that
<knome> zequence, we need to talk.
<knome> :)
<zequence> knome: I'm in for a little while. Otherwise, I'll have time tomorrow during work hours
<knome> tomorrow is better
<knome> but yeah, the LTS thing
<zequence> knome: Ok. See you tomorrow then :)
<knome> yep, good night :)
<cub> elfy, are you around?
<elfy> ish
<elfy> cub:  what's up?
<cub> He..I was reading your reply to zequence's email earlier in February about testing and had some questions
<cub> you wrote "Someone did create a whole bunch of bugs for Studio Testcases - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntu-studio"
<cub> and when I look there it seems it's for all *buntu?
<holstein> what is up with the volume control?
<holstein> i had a nasty-ish exchange with someone eariler.. but it does seem the volume applet is not working here
<zequence> cub: Beta1 is released Thursday. Before that we do the normal routine of testing our ISO. But, additionally, it would be good to test applications individually to find possible bugs
<holstein> the desktop is slick! i forget how nice it is right out of the box
<cub> zequence, yes I saw your reply in the logs as well.
<elfy> can you point me at it ? can't remember exactly what I said 
<elfy> oh yea
<elfy> chilcuil created bugs for almost everyone I think :)
<zequence> holstein: I think that has been fixed, but maybe we need to add something. We'll need to check with the Xubuntu devs. Did you actually test it yourself?
<elfy> we had ~60 of them
<cub> elfy, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2014-February/005632.html
<holstein> zequence: im just in the live environment, to get "stock"
<elfy> cub might be wrong link 
<elfy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntu-studio
<elfy> cub: there might be *buntu stuff there as well - the link just picks up those that 'have' a studio tag
<holstein> zequence: i can do a fresh install and uprade stock, though, and see
<elfy> cub: yep - I found that mail here - just re-read it
<elfy> though I've not made any start on your things - been a bit busy of late with our stuff and r/l
<cub> ok but if I was to create a test case as the manual test instructions, that wouldn't be "ubuntu studio only" right?
<elfy> cub: ok how 'we've' worked it is - if we do something that is xubuntu specific - we make it so - that is it might reference our menu's etc
<elfy> but something that's default for other flavours - you make them agnostic
<elfy> but bear in mind that this is really about 'default apps' so hydrogen for instance could be written with -studio in mind
<knome> imo, you can expect people know how to find app X to launch
<knome> so even if it isn't exactly like it's written on the testcase... it should be okay
<knome> usage for the apps is the same for every flavor anyway
<elfy> then when you have your group of default app testcases - you can create testsuites with specific tests in them
<knome> elfy, not unless they have the permissions to do that
<elfy> cub:  for instance all our tests are in testsuites like this http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/306/builds/55995/testcases
<elfy> knome: yep - just talking generally 
<knome> yep.
<cub> yes I was checking through the xubuntu testsuites
<elfy> cub it works like - product ->testsuite -> testcases
<elfy> I'm more than happy to work with you if you want with this 
<cub> I would like to, I'm not sure how much time I will have available with the beta coming up
<knome> to be honest, it looks to me like you'll have to wait until U to get these done
<elfy> yep - I'd agree with that
<zequence> holstein: Alright. There may be some kernel problems. Some drivers cause issues. Being worked at.
<elfy> cub: it depends on how deep you want a test to go to be honest
<elfy> some of ours are really simple - others go on and on and on - I'm looking at those to see what can be shaved tbh 
<cub> holstein, wow that was some frustrated user with the volume control discussion
<cub> elfy, do they change much between the releases? It seems a lot of work has been put into every case
<elfy> not much 
<knome> not really unless an app gets a complete rewrite
<elfy> I think we've changed very few because of changes - we've had some testcase bugs mostly
<elfy> then - this cycle we're going to get whisker-menu - which will change a few testcase
<elfy> so - it really is the work needed in the first instance - we were really lucky to have half a dozen people willing to put that time in 
<elfy> but it did take much of the saucy cycle 
<elfy> cub: I subscribed to your -dev m/l , so we can talk on there as well
<cub> sry got a phone call
<elfy> that's ok - I don't mind :)
<elfy> I got another drink :)
<cub> oh I wish!
<cub> thanks elfy and knome for the information, I'll do some more reading!
<knome> no problem
<elfy> cub: you're welcome - I'm generally about if you need anything, if I'm not you can either catch me on the m/l or shout at forestpiskie in the xubuntu channels and I see that in the morning
<cub> ok, thanks!
<elfy> alternatively piskie can sit in here as well - which is probably more sensible :)
<elfy> 30 second lag it seems
<cub> huija72
<cub> ah wrong chat.
<holstein> zequence: cool.. thats what i suggested to the user
<holstein> or, tried to at least..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-26
<holstein> zequence: update fixed the volume controls for me
<holstein> if i happen to see em again, i'll just mention my personal findings, and offer he should upgrade for the fix he was asking about
<zequence> knome: ping
<zequence> elfy: Thanks for doing testing on the AMD64 image!
<elfy> welcome :)
<cub> Hi zequence , the installation slide show, is that part of the User Interface Freeze?
<zequence> cub: Yes
<zequence> Anything to do with art, really.
<zequence> Art for applications, and so on
<cub> ok. Have you heard more from madeinkobaia on the art?
<cub> I got the email the other week that he'd been busy but will have time in the beginning of March
<cub> When running the beta tests, if I get some of the already logged bugs, do I set the test as failure or passed then?
<zequence> cub: Two types of bugs. Those that cause absolute failure, and that would make the test case fail. The other type is ordinary bugs. 
<zequence> cub: You can add bugs in the two fields. Critical bugs that make the test fail, and ordinary bugs.
<zequence> Probably we share a bunch of bugs with Xubuntu
<cub> exactly. it's the 1282509
<cub> #1282509
<cub> hmm what did you write to make the bot print the bug?
<elfy> bug 1282509
<ubottu> bug 1282509 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "xfdesktop crashed with SIGSEGV in xfce_desktop_refresh()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1282509
<cub> :)
<elfy> :)
<cub> then I have had problem shutting down the live i386 session but only when running in virtualbox
<cub> so I suppose that's more VB problem than ubuntu studio since running on HW there's no problems
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-27
<cub> zequence: I'm setting up two saucy VB on my pc now to test the upgrades, hopefully it will get done during the day. After that I will try the precise -> trusty even if there's no specific test cases for it at the moment
<cub> I'm on a mac today though, so testing jack and sound is often a bit messy
<zequence> cub: I'll also give upgrading a try
 * cub is kicking myself for not saving the old saucy installations
<zequence> Our DVD is starting to get quite large. I think we should consider a CD version for next release
<zequence> I'm a bit curious on how much changes we can do for each point release. Would be good if we could do that for 14.04.1
<cub> is there a schedule for the 14.04.1 release?
<cub> there's been the discussions on "bloatware" but on the other hand some argue that noone use CD anymore any way
<zequence> I think the problem is the time it takes to download it, especially if you only need the bare system
<zequence> I'm waiting for ubuntustudio-live to be accepted. Probably buggy, and needs to be fixed, but with that, the user can choose what to install
<zequence> And, I need to make it able to download packages
<zequence> Not just pick from the DVD/CD
<cub> cool
<cub> different question. If you want to convert a "standard" ubuntu to ubuntu studio, which packages are essential to get the audio and low latency kernel?
<zequence> cub: You mean, just jack and audio configs?
<cub> any other steps involved, as adding to the audio group or similar? I haven't done this in ages and I think it's different now since you did a lot of changes before 13.10?
<zequence> Install jackd and linux-lowlatency. Add yourself to audio group. That's it
<cub> it's a question on the ubuntuforums from a user who is going to buy a System76 pre-installed
<zequence> If you need the pulseaudio bridge, install pulseaudio-module-jack
<zequence> Ah
<cub> there is an outdated wiki page
<zequence> Yes. It's kind of big. Could be reduced
<cub> so instead of reinstallation the pc with US which might break the support agreement with System76, we suggested to "just add" what you need
<cub> but it would be good to specify what they actually need
<zequence> This command will take care of everything: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get install ubuntustudio-audio linux-lowlatency && sudo usermod -a -G audio $USER
<zequence> That will get all the audio packages, and set the system up for low latency audio
<cub> thanks!
<cub> zequence: I'm starting an upgrade on amd64 now, going to let it run over lunch break
<cub> zequence: when I did "update-manager -d -c" it didn't really do much. Said to restart to finish the updates but lsb_release still show 13.10
<cub> running again seems to start the upgrading
<zequence> cub: Yes, update-manager seems to want to make sure the system has the latest upgrades of packages, before being willing to upgrade to the next release
<zequence> Fak, I downloaded the wrong arch
<cub> half way through the amd64, takes a loooong time. Won't have time for the i386 today
<zequence> I'm doing the i386. As soon as I get the right image
<zequence> Having some problems getting the new ubuntustudio-live package uploaded, but getting a lot of help, so should be done within a couple of days, I hope
<zequence> Had a wonderful crash, while I was installing on virtualbox
<zequence> My computer is crapping out. How wonderful
<cub> great timing. :P
<holstein> i think a system76 rig would be a nice half of the equation
<holstein> not sure what audio interface i would pair with that these days
<cub> Open a terminal and enter the command grep Prompt=
<cub> /etc/update-manager/release-upgrades
<cub> zequence: is the step 7 correct? 
<cub> hmm my paste went wrong but anyhow
<cub> I figured it out but the test case have some typos
<zequence_> cub: I don't think the test case is up to date
<cub> nope
<zequence_> cub: You can check which release it is by doing: cat /etc/issue
<cub> I did a "more" and grep which showed me what was expected
<zequence_> holstein: Yeah, they don't have firewire ports on those machines. Probably only a handful of usb devices one should even consider
<cub> I tested some applications but since my macbook and Vbox doesn't work well with audio I really couldn't test that
<zequence_> I don't think vbox will work well on any platform, in lower latencies
<elfy> if there are issues with the testcases - report them as bugs - just make sure to note the testcase number
<zequence_> One needs to set jack to a period of over 2000
<cub> aha
<cub> do we count my tests as passed anyway?
<zequence_> cub: Sure. No problems at all?
<cub> two bugs, but otherwise no issues
<cub> same bugs as the "standard" installation so
<zequence> aha
<zequence> I usually get problems in user files
<cub> oh?
<cub> what kind?
<zequence> Corrupted login window is one that I've had for a couple of releases
<zequence> Nothing big, but not great
<cub> the login window was ugly, but not broken
<zequence> Ugly, how?
<cub> Bigger and more white than in 13.10
<cub> I thought it was supposed to look like that. :D
<zequence> Maybe, I don't know
<zequence> more white, how?
<zequence> The theming?
<cub> let's see if I can bring up a sceenshot
<cub> it was the same on my beta tests a couple of days ago
<cub> !paste
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<cub> http://imagebin.org/296143
<cub> perhaps different because of mugshot?
<zequence> It has seen some changes this cycle, so I think that's normal
<zequence> Maybe it would be possible to change the coloring a bit
<cub> probably
<zequence> Not a major issue, IMO :)
<cub> nope
<cub> also depends on how madeinkobaia changes the overall look for trusty?
<cub> if that's still on the table?
<zequence> No, I think we should only expect a new wp at the most
<zequence> I'm still possibly updating ubuntustudio-controls, which I haven't yet completed
<zequence> And, need to see what else I can do with our installer
<zequence> Once those two things are done, and before UI freeze, we need to update the slideshow
<zequence> Lastly, our website
<cub> yeah
<zequence> One thing that bothers me this release is that we have yet not gone through our package selection
<zequence> It's more or less untouched for years now
<cub> yes I had high hopes after 13.10 release but then life happened
<zequence> Well, at least on the audio, video and graphics side, where only minor changes have been made. Nothing overall
<zequence> I mean, nothing grand
<cub> no the biggest change is dropping ardour 2
<zequence> The meta hasn't been updated yet, so that is probably the reason it gets installed (if it still does)
<cub> if that is still to be done. Seems to be included in the beta.
<zequence> Yeah, I've only done the seeds. Need to update the meta. I'll have that done directly after the beta
<cub> I'm starting a new job on Monday so quite busy this and the upcoming weeks
<zequence> I'm doing php and mysql work in my internship. Feels like my mind is running out of drive space
<zequence> I'm probably just being thoroughly inefficient, in how I manage to get so little done
<cub> where's that?
<zequence> zetup.se
<cub> nice
<cub> I'm going back to the world of Skanska.
<cub> used to be server admin there 15- years ago
<cub> and will do Service Management for the infrastructure department
<cub> what about your plans for changes on the website that Nick started out with?
<cub> anything we should get back on the table? I could take a look if possible
<zequence> cub: Once we're done developing this release, if you have time, we can do that anytime. Around release time would of course be most suitable
<zequence> Would be nice to make a few small changes for the theming
<zequence> Also, we need to update the content. The feature tour especially
<zequence> And think about what we could improve overall. I'd like make it easy as pie for people to get involved
<cub> let me know if I can help out
<cub> heading home to my poorly little daughter now
<holstein> zequence: i have a nice texas instruments express card
<zequence> holstein: Cool. I've heard it's hard to get those working right. I might get a system76 sometime, if I can get firewire working on it
<zequence> Beta 1 out. Going to see if it's ok to make release postings
<holstein> zequence: all i own is an HP netbook that i use the expree card with.. but i have tried it with at least 4 or 5 other devices, no troubles
<holstein> maybe its something with certain laptop MB's
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-28
<holstein> zequence: testing is over? i was looking at this last upgrade test
<holstein> looks like we are go
<zequence> holstein: Yes. The upgrade test is sort of extra. Even if it fails, we publish.
<cub> Beta baby!
<zequence> A friend is turning 40 today, so I guess I won't be doing much development for the next couple of days
<elfy> those were the days ... 
<zequence> elfy: You can't be much older?
<elfy> almost 11 years older 
<zequence> elfy: you're like the first generation that ever saw a computer - I'm about 36 myself
<elfy> :)
<holstein> zequence: cheers
<holstein> for the record.. i vote staying with xubuntu on the support lenght
<holstein> 3 years or whatever they do
<micahg> zequence: with libav now in universe, that's a security burden as well (though shared with Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Kylin)
<micahg> gah, wrong channel
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-23
<elfy> zequence: are you not doing Beta 1 for vivid ? 
<zequence> elfy: Yes, we would like to
<zequence> No notices on ubuntu-release, right?
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityMilestoneProcess
<elfy> oh yes there is :)
<elfy> I know - I wrote it :p
<elfy> oh bah - wrong link
<zequence> I can't find it. Perhaps it's in my spam dir
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/Beta1
<elfy> zequence: probably my spam filter thinks I'm spam too :D
<elfy> 16th feb dated
<elfy> I'll mark the wiki as yes for you 
<zequence> elfy: Ah, you named it Beta 2 :)
<zequence> Thanks for notifying me
<elfy> wiki's sorted
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-24
<bluesabre> zequence: We're planning on bringing in the stable xfce-4.12 release as it lands... wanted to check with the studio folks as well :)
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-session/+bug/1424887
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1424887 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "[FFe] Xfce 4.12 for Vivid" [Undecided,New]
<zequence> bluesabre: Yeah, we won't object :)
<bluesabre> zequence: We thought you might agree, thanks for the quick reply ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-25
<elfy> zequence: are you likely to have got your testing done by tomorrow late afternoon (18:00UTC) 
<zequence> elfy: Yep
<elfy> zequence: we've been whacked with bug 1425690
<ubottu> bug 1425690 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "New windows are created offscreen" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1425690
<elfy> just running some install smoke tests for you now to confirm you see the same 
<zequence> Ok. I'm just downloading the ISOs myself
<elfy> I grabbed the 64 bit - but as is normal can only smoketest the actual install 
<elfy> wouldn't know a working app from a broken one :D
<zequence> I don't really bother with any apps currently. Especially when it's not LTS. If someone files a bug, and I can fix it, I do
<elfy> :)
<zequence> Often it's an issue with an auto import of a Debian unstable app which had a simple packaging bug in it
<elfy> well you could only have the install test 
<elfy> eg remove the post install test until lts
<zequence> I always check jack though. But that's about it
<elfy> and create a live testcase that just said - "does it start"
<elfy> ok - well as long as you're happy :)
<zequence> Yeah, for people to get confused you first need to have people
<elfy> LOL
<elfy> zequence: yep - confirmed that 
<elfy> so if you install from the Install UbuntuStudio option at the boot options you get nothing on screen
<zequence> elfy: Ok, thanks elfy
<elfy> ok - reported that on tracker for you against 64bit
<elfy> vbox only 
<elfy> just so you know - assuming we don't get fix in time - we're going to release with note as to what to do on release notes
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-26
<zequence> XFCE looks have evolved, it seems
<zequence> elfy: I'm done testing the images, so no need for you to. I'm assuming you have little time as is.
<elfy> zequence: thank you :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-27
<TylerCardon> Hi!
<zequence> TylerCardon: Hi
<TylerCardon> I'm interested in developing
<zequence> TylerCardon: Cool.
<zequence> I'm the project lead. Not many people involved atm. Lots of room for lots of things
<TylerCardon> Sweet
<zequence> Mostly up to you
<zequence> You want any information at all, you can always ask me. I'm not in 24/7, but my client is, so I might take some time to answer
<zequence> client being a raspberry PI with a creen IRC client on it
<TylerCardon> Do people choose from available fixes or projects or is it mostly delegated?
<holstein> there can be delegation
<holstein> but, right now, things are more like, "as needed"
<holstein> should/could be developement meetings, etc..
<TylerCardon> I use CentOS and Debian at work so I am new to Ubuntu, but am interested in multimedia applications or kernel
<holstein> if the team developed..
<zequence> TylerCardon: Most of what we have is directly imported from Debian
<zequence> The kernel is specific to Ubuntu. We maintain linux-lowlatency, or at least the diff compared to linux-generic
<zequence> Compared to Debian, there is some difference in kernel maintenance
<holstein> we, being zequence 
<zequence> Well, we being the Ubuntu Studio Kernel Team, which for now, is me
<holstein> well, its you and TylerCardon , looks like
<zequence> TylerCardon: Anyway, you should know that any at all input or interest you have is more than welcome here.
<zequence> There are things to learn, of course.
<zequence> And, for that, there is the wiki, and us who are here, mainly me.
<TylerCardon> Are there any introductory projects I could help with? I am downloading 14.04.2 and installing on a virtualbox
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> TylerCardon: Testing is probably the most introductionary there is
<zequence> We just finished testing beta1 for vivid
<zequence> To try to explain the whole thing simply:
<zequence> We decide on what packages end up on our ISO. The choice is mostly on covering workflows, not making sure everything ever ends up there
<zequence> We have the opportunity to simplify the experience for users
<zequence> ..and for that we are able to use all our creative freedom - coding, as well as packagin
<zequence> We don't package software for Ubuntu, if it can not be packaged Debian
<zequence> Most of the work is actually done in Debian
<zequence> In particular, the Debian Multimedia Team
<zequence> If you want to help with packagin, make sure to look that up, and become a member.
<zequence> Any packagin work should be done in Debian first, if possible, so that all Debian based can make use of it
<zequence> Makes sense, right?
<zequence> We could make more updates to packages, as long as someone is willing to do the packagin work
<zequence> Sorry for the missing g's. Not sure why they seem to fall out.
<TylerCardon> Yeah that all makes sense
<zequence> TylerCardon: Getting a bit late for me today, but hope to see you around. If you have any questions, you can write to me personally on irc, or email, or on this channel, or on mail lists, or whatever. All good
<TylerCardon> Ok thanks for your time
<zequence> no problem at all
<zequence> TylerCardon: Oh, most of what is documented is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> It's not documented well, but it's what there is
<zequence> Some of it outdated.
<TylerCardon> Ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-01
<sakrecoer_> hey guys! UI freeze is next week. :) is this when we ubuntustudio-look should be finished?
<zequence> sakrecoer_: It is the date when vanilla Ubuntu UI needs to be done, but it is a good date for us as well
<OvenWerks> zequence: did you see my note about -default-settings?
<OvenWerks> zequence: it seems the fix was never uploaded or at least never made it to the repos.
<OvenWerks> the version in launch pad does not match the verion on the ISO
<zequence> OvenWerks: I must have made some error there. I will have a look and fix it.
<sakrecoer_> zequence: ok :) good!
<sakrecoer_> i can't figure out how to get my DEV-install to diplay the whisker menu...
<sakrecoer_> i've done update, upgrade, dist-upgrade, but the old menu is the one showing. i gues i should just reinstall it from scratch..
<zequence> sakrecoer_: I haven't uploaded the fix yet, so it'll only work if you edit the whisker config file for now
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: if you can't see whisker after an up grade, create another user and see if it is there for the new user.
<OvenWerks> Once a user has logged in once, the global default is copied to the users ~/.config/xfce* file and making changes to the gobal config will not change that user.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: if you truely want a new user experience :) and you probably don't want to do this. You can remove .config and .cache from your home directory. But be aware that you will loose a lot of stuff.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: you can also add whisker to your panel manually, but for testing purposes creating a new user is the standard method.
<sakrecoer_> thanks zequence and OvenWerks :) i'll try create a new user
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-02
<Rosco2> zequence: was just about to look at seeds for fonts-droid & saw you had just done it
<Rosco2> Will you take care of meta package as well & default-settings as well?
<Rosco2> Bug #1549933
<ubottu> bug 1549933 in ubuntustudio-meta "Fonts-droid has been deprecated and removed, please update your dependency" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1549933
<zequence> Rosco2: I've uploaded a new meta. Haven't touched -default-settings yet
<zequence> Rosco2: Are you going to apply for upload rights in the future, do you think?
<zequence> You should apply for ubuntu membership as well
<Rosco2> Yeah - I was going to do after the release
<krytarik> zequence: Reg.  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/0.148 , Xubuntu is only pulling in 'fonts-noto-hinted', ftm - you might want to avoid pulling the other ones as well.
<krytarik> Most notably, 'fonts-noto-cjk'.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-03
<zequence> I'm putting sakrecoer_ on making changes to -default-settings, so please let him do that. It's a great opportunity for him to get some insight into that package right now
<krytarik> OvenWerk1: Was the stripping down on the Whisker Menu favorites here intended, btw?: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/245373513/ubuntustudio-default-settings_0.56_0.57.diff.gz  It's not mentioned in the changelog anyway, as well as the "hover-switch-category=true" change.
<zequence> krytarik: That change is not in our bzr branch, believe it or not
<zequence> I once forgot to update our branch after doing an upload
<zequence> Think maybe one change got through unintentionally
<zequence> There's another change there as well
<zequence> Nice catch. I need to go back and have a look
<zequence> I also just updated the branch with the latest commit
<zequence> A bit of chaos, to say the least
<OvenWerk1> krytarik: probably those were meant. hover-switch-categories=true makes a lot more sense where the favourites generally do not have what the user wants.
<OvenWerk1> The favourites selection is all stuff that people using a standard desktop would like, but are just in the way for people doing creation.
<OvenWerk1> krytarik: as zequence says there may be things in there not meant to be there.
 * OvenWerk1 still finds whisker less useful than a standard/classic menu.
<OvenWerk1> For what its worth, my wife who has xubuntu, had me change whisker back to the applications menu because she could never find what she wanted.
<sakrecoer> so krytarik, what the font?
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Huh?
<krytarik> sakrecoer: That is to say, a whole sentence would help here. :P
<sakrecoer> i was trying to bring that on-topic back in to the right channel
<sakrecoer> krytarik: zequence told to talk to me about meta for fonts..
<zequence> sakrecoer: fonts-noto brings in three packages, I believe. We only need one for our desktop, but we could use at least two of them for our font meta package
<zequence> krytarik was kindly suggesting we get rid of what we don't need by seeding only the packages we want
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Most notably, 'fonts-noto-cjk' is 112 MB installed.
<zequence> I already did this right in debian/control of ubuntustudio-default-settings, by making the dependency fonts-noto-hinted
<sakrecoer> i'm getting confused hehe
<sakrecoer> 112mb for a font family?
<zequence> ubuntustudio-desktop and ubuntustudio-font-meta still have all three, since they all depend on fonts-noto
<zequence> To make changes to those two packages, you do it in seeds
<zequence> ..and then someone (me) updates ubuntustudio-meta, which is basing its dependencies on the seeds files
<zequence> So, in short, seeds needs to be edited
<sakrecoer> ah! hehe ok...
<zequence> ubuntustudio-meta is the source package which then builds all of our meta packages, such as ubuntustudio-desktop and ubuntustudio-fonts-meta, just to make that clear
<zequence> there's no binary package called ubuntustudio-meta
<sakrecoer> ok, and these 'fonts-noto-cjk'.. if we remove them, we are not going to exclude mandarin, arab or cyrilic or something like that?
<zequence> Don't know. But, if that is true, then Xubuntu should probably reconsider adding it again
<zequence> or, adding it in the first place, that is
<sakrecoer> krytarik: your link to http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/fonts-noto
<sakrecoer> never mind..
<krytarik> :D
<sakrecoer> but looking here: http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/fonts-noto-cjk it says 75mb
<krytarik> Yep, package size, not installed.
<sakrecoer> of course..
<sakrecoer> it is maintained by ChangZhuo Chen
<sakrecoer> i wouldn't be surprised if it is that big due to mandarin/cantonese symbols being in there...
<krytarik> Well, "CJK" means Chinese, Japanese, Korean.
<krytarik> So quite a lot of stuff.
<sakrecoer> can chinese people download anything else then kylin?
<zequence> I'm the wrong person to ask about this kind of stuff anyway. Might be useful to discuss this with Xubuntu devs over at #xubuntu-devel
<zequence> Or, more generally on some Ubuntu IRC channel, like #ubuntu-devel
<flocculant> as far as I remember - Xubuntu went right off cjk or anything remotely kylin when they couldn't care less they'd screwed ibus for 14.04 and any sort of password that wasn't just letters on a US keyboard failed
<zequence> This is also why I don't put too much effort on desktop stuff. It's a lot more than I ever want to know, tbh :P
<sakrecoer> i feel like i'm missing some piece of information again :D
<sakrecoer> but its probably simply to late
<zequence> I remember the problems with iBus. We had to scrap something in order for a non US keyboard to be able to get the selected default layout in the first place
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> we scrapped ibus at that point
<zequence> sakrecoer: I would probably not worry too much about these sort of details, at least not at this stage
<zequence> sakrecoer: Better work on the fundamentals of our flavor, and perhaps have goals of that sort for 18.04 instead
<zequence> We are releasing in less than two months, and should not be adding too many changes at this point.
<zequence> While I'm sure supporting non western keyboards is not just a detail for some people, it's technically beyond our range of expertise. And, I would rather have that sort of changes in the DE specific flavors, and we just copy it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-04
<zequence> If we could support many DEs, perhaps some of those are better for more universal language support, and in that way we wouldn't need to worry about that as much
<flocculant> I'd guess buntumain does that better
<sakrecoer> i guess too, yes..
<sakrecoer> well, afaicr, we agreed to follow the direction of xubuntu on the font things..
<flocculant> so did I
<sakrecoer> you did.... agree to follow the xubuntu direction?
<flocculant> yup
<sakrecoer> man my main wetware frame is xrun:ing me...
<sakrecoer> i'll leave it here for today...
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> anwyas good catch krytarik and nice to read you guys! bye for now!
<zequence> I'm logging off too. later all
<flocculant> night
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Reg.  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/trunk/revision/282 , this is Xubuntu's take on that - because we figured that Noto Sans is a bit larger than the old Droid Sans: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/revision/600
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-05
<sakrecoer> cool, thanks krytarik, i'll look into it tonight :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-06
<flocculant> sakrecoer: just so you know for October - milestone test images in general turn up Monday/Tuesday for testers - so release can happen on Thursday
<sakrecoer> thanks flocculant :) i hadn't understood it like that, will remember it :)
<sakrecoer> krytarik: noto is a "Little" bit larger :) i don't mind it that much, but 9px is kindof uncool for people with glasses... its easier to change to a samller font because it implies you actualy see what is written... but i guess i should write this in the xubuntu channel, IF i really cared much :)
<sakrecoer> this was brought to my attention by krytarik: http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/all/ubuntustudio-default-settings/filelist pointing out that thunar translation stuff is in there... should i just go on and remove it?
<sakrecoer> well, i put it here for you guys to look into and hopefully help me understand better... but i have to log off for now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-03-02
<bluesabre> Hi Studio developers! Xubuntu is considering bringing the new xfce4-notifyd to Zesty, and if possible, we'd like to get your approval https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-notifyd/+bug/1668821
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1668821 in xfce4-notifyd (Ubuntu) "[FFe] xfce4-notifyd 0.3.5 for zesty" [Undecided,New]
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: I think from my point of view a do not disturb feature is a plus.
<OvenWerks> So that is a +1 from me
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-02-26
<nicowe> hi all !
<nicowe> i'm trying to do testing and I think I found a bug but I don't know how to report it, can somebody give me some advice ?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-25
<studiobot> Duke was added by: Duke
 * OvenWerks is not happy with the new icon theme...
<OvenWerks> I find it hard to find tool bar stuff like the save icon is harder for me to pick out.
<OvenWerks> The meni icons are generally ok, but some of the toolbar stuff is monochrome and so less easy to use.
<OvenWerks> *menu
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'll go ahead and revert it. I found that to be difficult, too. Seems the dark color they used too closely matches.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I might try the deepin icon theme next and see what you think.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it is certainly the way things are going, the newer theme _does_ match FF and glade which use their own icons
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't think we need a US icon theme, only to use _a_ default theme
<Eickmeyer> Well, the US icon theme has some extra icons for apps that don't contain their own for whatever reason.
<Eickmeyer> It also carries our distributor-logo icon.
<OvenWerks> If we need to add Icons for our own or missing we should just add them to hi-colour
<Eickmeyer> That's not a bad idea. I don't know why that wasn't done before.
<OvenWerks> In other words no a theme per se but rather extra icons
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<OvenWerks> That way the user is not locked into the US theme they can choose any theme and be happy
<Eickmeyer> It might take a bit to make that change, but I'm glad to take it on. I just don't know if it will make it in time for 19.04. 
<OvenWerks> By the way our extra menu directory icons seem to be there already
<Eickmeyer> That's part of -menu, as far as I can tell.
<OvenWerks> So maybe move any actual icons in the icon theme there... might only be two or three
<Eickmeyer> Well, I can easily move those to hi-color and change the package name to ubuntustudio-extra-icons, with ubuntustudio-icon-theme becoming a transitional dummy package.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would just add them to menu
<OvenWerks> It seems odd to have a package for three icons
<OvenWerks> most of the ones that seem to be missing are in mixers
<Eickmeyer> I'll see what I can do. That might be a solution. Either way, -icon-theme would need to become a transitional dummy package anyhow.
<Eickmeyer> meh, deepin wouldn't work for a default anyhow, I guess we'll stick with elementary-xfce-dark.
<OvenWerks> AH, we seem to be missing the alsa icon...
<OvenWerks> That is what I went back to :)
<Eickmeyer> The default panel icon, our logo, also seems to be in -icon-theme.
<OvenWerks> Did we drop hexter?
<OvenWerks> that would be safer in hicolour
<Eickmeyer> I don't know. It doesn't seem to be there...
<OvenWerks> it says it is installed here
<Eickmeyer> Strange. I search for it in Whisker and it's not ther.e
<Eickmeyer> I am showing it installed too.
<OvenWerks> Ah, my mistake, it is really a plugin and relies on a dssi wraper to run standalone
<Eickmeyer> Ah.... you had me panicking.
<OvenWerks> but it doesn't show up in Carla :P
<OvenWerks> It seems broken
<OvenWerks> Carla does use the right path.
<OvenWerks> when I try xdg-open hexter I get Gtk-Message: 08:24:49.811: GtkDialog mapped without a transient parent. This is discouraged.
<OvenWerks> And I get a dialog that says: Unable to detect the URI-scheme of hexter
<OvenWerks> Hmm xdg-open does that for anything maybe xdg-open is broken?
<OvenWerks> or maybe I am using it wrong?
<OvenWerks> I am using it wrong
<OvenWerks> OK hexter does work. If I go to /usr/share/applications/ and double click on hexter.desktop it does start
<OvenWerks>  (So I wonder why Carla doesn't see the plugin)
<OvenWerks> Huh, Carla doesn't show _any_ of the five dssi synths at all
<OvenWerks> Bug in Carla I guess
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^
<OvenWerks> qtractor shows it fine
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I think that might be a bug that was fixed upstream, I'll check.
<OvenWerks> (sorry 4 synths)
<OvenWerks> We don't export LV2PATH, LADSPAPATH DSSIPATH
<OvenWerks> The upstream package of Ardour should probably put /usr/lib/ardour5/LV2
<OvenWerks> contents in /usr/lib/LV2
<OvenWerks> (or provide links)
<Eickmeyer> Looks like they are fluidsynth based, and, iirc, Carla doesn't support fluidsynth.
<OvenWerks> there is only one fluidsynth the others are not
<Eickmeyer> Hmmm....
<OvenWerks> Carla will load fluid synth
<Eickmeyer> Here's the log on that one: carla-discovery::info::skipping fluidsynth based plugin - /usr/lib/dssi/fluidsynth-dssi.so
<OvenWerks> Ya but if I add /usr/lib/ardour5/LV2 to the LV2 path, Carla happily loads a-fluidsynth
<OvenWerks> There is a calf version too. I think that rather than fluidsynth based he means dssi based... in which case he should remove the dssi selection
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It looks like it found issues with all 4 of those plugins: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/QsZ4Fq4pHK/
<Eickmeyer> He has a whole slew of DSSI plugins in the KXStudio repo that work.
<Eickmeyer> I can file this as a bug report to see what he says.
<OvenWerks> All of those plugins are not and have not been actively developed for some time.
<Eickmeyer> Hmmmm...
<OvenWerks> I think xsynth was sort fo abandoned and then whysynth is a fork of xsynth and then also abandoned.
<OvenWerks> fluidsynth should be used from either calf or the a-series of LV2 plugins anyway
<Eickmeyer> Agreed. Should we not even worry about it then?
<OvenWerks> However, qsynth probably uses the fluid synth dssi plugin...
<OvenWerks> I will look abit fartherxsynth/whysynth may be a part of the dssi lib package (for free) so it would be hard to remove them without breaking qsynth
<Eickmeyer> Okay. I won't take action for now then.
<OvenWerks> If they work... we can add icons for the three of them (fluidsynth already has a gui that works)
<OvenWerks> I don't know why hexter is not shown now... -menu bug?
<Eickmeyer> No -menu bug, it doesn't even have a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications.
<Eickmeyer> Either an upstream bug or deliberately removed.
<OvenWerks> Ok may I installed locally
<OvenWerks> Xsynth has no GUI but does run. Whysynth will not start at all
<OvenWerks> Actually it does have a GUI but I don't seem to have it :)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ok, Studio does ship fluidsynth-dssi, hexter, whysynth and xsynth-dssi
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but it appears as though hexter doesn't contain a .desktop file which would put an icon in the menu
<OvenWerks> under installed files I find: /usr/share/applications/hexter.desktop
<OvenWerks> Unless that has been dropped since 18.04
<Eickmeyer> I see hexter.desktop there, but it's not making an icon anywhere.
<Eickmeyer> That was weird, I didn't see it there before.
<OvenWerks> That was I thought bug in the menu
<Eickmeyer> I looked in menu and it doesn't seem like it should be missing. Care to take a look?
<OvenWerks> It does show no icon. I thought that was one of the icons we added though
<OvenWerks> seems I haven't looked that in a while.. I still have the bzr version :)
<Eickmeyer> Hexter is definitely in -icon-theme, but I don't know if it's being called correctly. Might just have to move it to hicolor.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: -icon-theme is now reverted to basing on elementary-xfce-dark.
<OvenWerks> I can not see why hexter does not show up... at least the menu file looks correct. I guess I should check my system file maybe it was fixed.
<OvenWerks> nope my system file is fine.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I found in the .desktop file that hexter is looking for an icon at /usr/share/pixmaps/hexter.xpm that doesn't exist.
<Eickmeyer> That might be the reason.
<Eickmeyer> Additionally, hdspmixer is looking for the alsa-tools icon, not its own icon in either hicolor or -icon-theme.
<OvenWerks> but those ones show up yet hexter doesn't
<OvenWerks> I tried using a totally different file renamed to hexter.desktop with the internal name changed to hexter. still no show.
<OvenWerks> problem is that we override the thing with: /usr/share/ubuntustudio/applications/hexter.desktop... which is borked.
<OvenWerks> which package installes that?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^
<Eickmeyer> Looking...
<OvenWerks> It looks like it was thought that the two would add together... but they don't and it can't find the icon anyway.
<OvenWerks> that should just be removed. probably in one of the -settings packages. or maybe icons
<Eickmeyer> It's in -default-settings.
<Eickmeyer> There's actually quite a few files in that directory.
<Eickmeyer> Including hdspmixer.desktop
<OvenWerks> Yes, I think that needs to be looked at.
<OvenWerks> I think the idea was that the installed desktop files did not have an icon and we would supply one.
<Eickmeyer> I don't think it's doing what the intention was supposed to be.
<OvenWerks> we should leave hexter in there, but copy the stock one and just replace the icon with a generic one.
<OvenWerks> no. the whole desktop file has to be rewritten
<OvenWerks> the xterm should be left out. As things progress the xfce term may go the route of the gnome term which has privilage problems
<OvenWerks> The package in ubuntustudio-defaulkt-settings
<Eickmeyer> Okay, I moved the hexter.desktop from /usr/share/applications into that directory and changed its icon to the default hexter one from hicolor.
<Eickmeyer> I removed the debian-xterm.desktop file.
<Eickmeyer> Is there a reason why we're doing a nodisplay=true for xfce4-terminal.desktop?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks ^
<Eickmeyer> Same question for Thunar, Thunar settings, etc.
<OvenWerks> I think because we make them both available as "default" terminal and file browser
<OvenWerks> So they are already covered by another desktop file
<Eickmeyer> That's fair.
<OvenWerks> I think we may like to remove the nodisplay for  debian-xterm though
<OvenWerks> maybe wait to see if the same problem that is hurting the gnome terminal shows up
<OvenWerks> It may never and xfce terminal is quite good.
<Eickmeyer> I removed the nodisplay.
<Eickmeyer> Really, the entire desktop file since that was the only entry.
<Eickmeyer> Committed, pushed, and building.
<Eickmeyer> Also fixed the hdspmixer file since it was also incomplete.
<OvenWerks> The reality is that any of the audio correction desktop files should be moved to the menu package. Also any icons that go with them
<Eickmeyer> I agree with that. Also, if this works, I don't see any reason why the icons can't be removed from -icon-theme.
<OvenWerks> Any of these that are xfce specific should be in a ubuntustudio-xfce-settings package. Unless default=xfce in which case  we need a more generic one
<OvenWerks> but I think you already did that
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<Eickmeyer> Honestly, it wouldn't matter unless they had those tools installed, which they likely wouldn't without Xfce.
<Eickmeyer> Re: Thunar, mostly.
<OvenWerks> does the package depend on thunar?
<Eickmeyer> No.
<Eickmeyer> Well, -default-settings does, but not -menu.
<Eickmeyer> To be safe, we can keep the Xfce-specific ones in -default-settings and move the generic ones to -menu.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> I think that makes sense
<OvenWerks> So the things I think you are doing: move the icons from icon theme to menu. Move the desktop files to menu
<OvenWerks> so now that the ubuntustudio icon theme is going to go we also need to have the xfce settings point directly to the default icon theme we will use :)
 * OvenWerks feels he should not play with these packages if you are already :)
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I'm messing with 'em.
<Eickmeyer> -icon-theme will become a transitional dummy package as soon as I'm done.
<OvenWerks> As you are going for upload rights, the more activity that shows up the better.
 * OvenWerks puts on Ardour dev hat for a while...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: The fix to the icons in /usr/share/ubuntustudio has worked. Hexter now shows.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Unfortunately, it looks like the distributor-logo icon needs to remain in /usr/share/icons/ubuntustudio, otherwise it would cause potential package conflicts if installed in hicolor. Ubuntu keeps its in the Humanity theme and Xubuntu keeps theirs in the Xubuntu theme (which, like ours, follows elementary-xfce-dark). No flavor installs their icon theme to hicolor.
<Eickmeyer> Rather, no flavor installs their distributor-logo to hicolor.
<Eickmeyer> So, pretty much the only reason to have ubuntustudio-icon-theme is for that distributor-logo icon at this point.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: -default-settings then, it seems silly to have a package for one file...
<Eickmeyer> It's for multiple sizes of the same icon.
<OvenWerks> also -*-settings I guess
<Eickmeyer> But, yeah, that does seem like a good place for it.
<OvenWerks> Can we put it in /usr/share/ubuntustudio/icone/hi-colour/* ?
<Eickmeyer> I just pushed a bunch of changes now.
<Eickmeyer> In order for the distributor-logo to be ours (as opposed to Ubuntu, Xubuntu, or even Debian) ubuntustudio-icon-theme has to be the default. Otherwise it'll default to the wrong logo.
<OvenWerks> I think we have it in there as a different name for the menu etc.
<OvenWerks> So it is still accessable even if the user chooses a different icon theme after install
<Eickmeyer> We do, but when applications look distributor-logo, they'll find whatever is the default for that icon theme.
<Eickmeyer> It has less to do with the menu and more to do with applications themselves.
 * OvenWerks thinks a link sounds ideal for this
<Eickmeyer> Rather, the applications look for the distributor logo based on whatever the active icon theme is.
<Eickmeyer> So, ubuntustudio inherits elementary-xfce in herits hicolor.
 * Eickmeyer can't type worth a darn now.
<Eickmeyer> Likewise, xubuntu inherits elementary-xfce inherits hicolor.
<Eickmeyer> Or, Yaru inherits Humanity inherits hicolor.
<OvenWerks> Right so the icon called distributor-logo should be a link to /etc/alternatives
<OvenWerks> Right so the icon called distributor-logo should be a link to /etc/alternatives/link_to_our_logo
<OvenWerks> just like /usr/bin/editor
<OvenWerks> /etc/alternatives is full of links for the same purpose (our plymouth is inthere for example)
<OvenWerks> The problem is that this would have to be started upstream, not just Studio.
<OvenWerks> we could put a bug in though
<OvenWerks> though I am not sure which package to put it in :)
<Eickmeyer> You're right, but yeah, not sure either.
<Eickmeyer> That's a can of worms, for sure.
<Eickmeyer> Ideally, that's the right way to do distributor-logo, and using an icon theme is a hack. Unfortunately, it's the prescident.
<OvenWerks> Do we have to use elementary xfce dark? is elementary dark missing something big?
<Eickmeyer> I'm not seeing anything weird, except it uses the older icons.
<Eickmeyer> They're a bit dated.
<OvenWerks> Everything is "dated"...
<Eickmeyer> I understand. Where I'm at is that, as an "artistic" project, we need to keep up with the trends in desktop aesthetics.
<OvenWerks> I understand, I also understand that this is one of those areas where I can't really see the difference. So I don't tend to complain so long as everything works when I change to something I can use daily.
<Eickmeyer> Totally, I get that.
<OvenWerks> All I can do is give opinion and reasons for them. I understand that for a lot of things I am (probably by design) out of touch.
<Eickmeyer> I have an idea. How married to the Numix Blue theme are we?
<OvenWerks> I don't use it...
<OvenWerks> Maybe I do
<Eickmeyer> Okay. What if we switched to Arc Darker (light theme with dark borders) by default with Papirus icons? That way we would still have our dark titlebar & menus & panel, but maintain our light theme, and the standard Papirus icons use a light color for their simple icons.
<OvenWerks> Numix style, elementtary dark, theme Mohei
<OvenWerks> (is what I use)
<Eickmeyer> Install arc-theme, switch to the theme with Papirus icons (should have remained installed from before) and tell me what you think.
<Eickmeyer> Right now, we're maintaining the Numix Blue theme, and that's probably not in our best interest.
<OvenWerks> But I somehow have an "orange" title bar for active window decoration
<Eickmeyer> That's because you're using the standard "Numix" theme as opposed to our Numix Blue.
<OvenWerks> Ok, ya I did that on purpose
<OvenWerks> Plasma allows you to edit the style
<Eickmeyer> You're in Plasma right now? I'm in Xfce. XD
<OvenWerks> No I am in xfce
<OvenWerks> I just remembered being able to edit the style somewhere and realized it was plasma
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay.
<OvenWerks> Which arc?
<OvenWerks> (dark or darker)
<Eickmeyer> Darker, and use ePapirus. I found a flaw with using Papirus-dark.
<OvenWerks> start ardour...
<Eickmeyer> Done, Ardour is running with an empty session.
<OvenWerks> Does it have great white bars? can you read the menu text at the top?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, no problem with the menu at the top.
<OvenWerks> Huh that was Ardour 6, 5.12 is ok... let me restart 6
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> (Photo, 1280x720) https://i.imgur.com/Mg35Zm7.jpg
<OvenWerks> ardour 6 is fine when restarted
<OvenWerks> do you have geany? 
<Eickmeyer> I've noticed that a lot of apps have to be restarted if you change the theme.
<Eickmeyer> What's geany?
<OvenWerks> development tool
<Eickmeyer> Ah, the IDE. I do most of my editing in Mousepad & Git Cola.
<Eickmeyer> When in Xfce, that is.
<Eickmeyer> I just installed Geany.
<Eickmeyer> Is there something I should see?
<OvenWerks> http://i.imgur.com/3Mx7K2H.png
<OvenWerks> look at the toolbar
<Eickmeyer> Yes, I see the same here.
<OvenWerks> I can hardly see any of the toolbar icons
<Eickmeyer> Try Papirus Dark for the icons.
<OvenWerks> Maybe in part because the main window is so bright
<Eickmeyer> It might be that.
<Eickmeyer> Changing to Papirus Dark prevents the icons from showing up in the menus. I think that's why they made ePapirus to be an in-between.
<OvenWerks> None of the papirus icons seem to be any different for those icons in use
<OvenWerks> BTW elementary xubuntu dark claims to be broken.
<Eickmeyer> Just says the icon cache needs to be updated.
<OvenWerks> Opps... I was looking at the screen shot
<OvenWerks> papirus dark is better for geany yes.
<OvenWerks> but if it messes other things up...
<Eickmeyer> I removed icons from menus and buttons, seems to do the trick.
<OvenWerks> Dark is darker than darker... I must think wrong
<Eickmeyer> That's always confused me too.
<Eickmeyer> Not the only theme that does that.
<OvenWerks> darker is darker than normal, dark is dark.
<Eickmeyer> That must be the logic.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, choose whatever is best for the flavour, I will probably go back to Moheli becasue it allows the title bar to cleary show the active window rather than just changing the shade of the text.
<Eickmeyer> Gotcha.
<OvenWerks> Part of the idea of these things is to be able to choose what the user wants and I like what I had. I may even use the elementary dark :)
<OvenWerks> I do use the numix style, but don't let that stop you from removing numix, I can work with something else
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We don't have to remove Numix, it's in the repos. It's "Numix Blue" that we maintain ourselves.
<OvenWerks> Ya, don't do that we have too much already to do
<Eickmeyer> Exactly, that was my thought behind removing it. Takes the burden away.
<Eickmeyer> It's a subpackage of -look.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I think I figured it out. Papirus icons on the Adapta-Eta GTK theme.
<Eickmeyer> Back later, gotta pick up my son from schoool.
<Eickmeyer> I'm back.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-26
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Even better was the Materia GTK theme with the Papirus icons. That's what I went with.
<OvenWerks> OK
<OvenWerks> something smells though... why do I have:  ubuntustudio-menu 0.27-0~201902251915~ubuntu19.04.1 (Newer version available)???
<OvenWerks> seems to be launchpad oddness
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I think that has to do with the package version in the repos as opposed to the PPA.
<OvenWerks> but the ppa looks newer and apt thinks it is newer too, but whatever. When they finally get released the version will go up
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Launchpad is launchpad.
<Eickmeyer> Must be some kind of discrepancy between launchpad's version tracking and apt.
<krytarik> Maybe if you took care of the changelog along the way and incremented the version number...
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: We've been trying to along the way.
<Eickmeyer> And, even if we have, Launchpad still sometimes shows a newer version available.
 * Eickmeyer needs to go to bed.
<krytarik> And <https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-default-settings/commit/?id=19028bf7dbb1c50fb22229679dc6a09e7b2e663f> reverts the fix in <https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-default-settings/commit/?id=7572f1cc49f1a23033c0321e492be0c2272b61ed> - we've already been where users see launchers for apps that aren't even installed.
<OvenWerks> The thing is they are installed...
<OvenWerks> The two that were fixed
<OvenWerks> It does not reverse the three that were removed because the application is not there
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: ^
<krytarik> LP: #1617846
<Eickmeyer> This was something OvenWerks and I worked on together. 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1617846 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "desktop files for gnome color manager have not been removed" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1617846
<Eickmeyer> This did not revert that fix. 
<krytarik> A complete rather than partial .desktop file does revert it.
<OvenWerks> A complete rather than a partial seems to be required so that the installed application can actually be used
<OvenWerks> That part needed to be reverted in this case. The reason the file was there in the first place was so that a replacement icon could be used... in case someone actually fixed the package.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: The desktop files in question weren't allowing their apps to show. Those particular ones need to show if they are installed. I didn't make the changes without working with OvenWerks. 
<Eickmeyer> I didn't make any other changes, save deleting the one preventing xterm from showing per OvenWerks. 
<Eickmeyer> Therefore, that bug fix (gnome color manager) is still in place. 
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerk1: Putting those icons in /usr/share/applications was a mistake, I just moved them to their proper place in /usr/share/ubuntustudio/applications. Hopefully they don't disappear.
<OvenWerk1> Eickmeyer: icons? I am confused
<Eickmeyer> The .desktop files. My bad.
<OvenWerk1> Yes the desktop files should remain /usr/share/ubuntustudio
<OvenWerk1> (applications)
<Eickmeyer> Yep. I had accidentally put them in the wrong spot in -menu.
<OvenWerk1> They looked right here.
<OvenWerk1> but that is 18.04
<Eickmeyer> Right, but they were in /usr/share/applications, which was bound to cause a package conflict.
<OvenWerk1> yes
<Eickmeyer> Basically I messed-up, but not in the way krytarik thought I did.
<OvenWerk1> :)
<OvenWerk1> His responce was not called for.
<OvenWerk1> However, it probably comes across worse than he meant it.
<OvenWerk1> (different cultures and all)
<OvenWerk1> My Mother in law died last Friday and so my Yf is in Manilla and the house hold is a bit of a mess and I am not tracking as well as I could be
<Eickmeyer> I am so sorry.
<OvenWerk1> Mom lived with us for a number of years so she was a part of our family.
<OvenWerk1> So I am not likely to be helping people with their machine for a bit... it just takes too much.
<Eickmeyer> Absolutely. You take care of you.
<Eickmeyer> I was hoping to work on documentation anyhow, but the -menu fixes seemed like a priority.
<OvenWerk1> Ya.
<Eickmeyer> BTW, we did, in fact, need to bump the version number. So, I did that just now, new build incoming.
<OvenWerk1> Normally the version is bumped by whoever releases it... or that used to be the way.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but Disco didn't like that. It wasn't pulling-in a new version of -menu.
<OvenWerk1> That is why we set the builds up the way we do. The date becomes part of the version.
<Eickmeyer> It was seeing 0.27 as newer than 0.27-0~[date], which I thought was weird.
<OvenWerk1> For backports ppa they shouold only be built whenthere is a release anyway, but for auto builds...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer> The backports PPA is still WIP, which will change once Disco releases.
<Eickmeyer> Gives people a chance to test newer software right now.
<OvenWerk1> right.
<OvenWerk1> As the new version of installer gets out, it will be easy for people to add the backport ppa even for one application and then disable it
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer> back later, gotta get the kid to the bus stop.
<OvenWerk1> I suppose the list in installer should also include packages where updates are available...
<OvenWerk1> gotta get mine out the door too
<OvenWerk1> that was easy...
 * OvenWerk1 puts on Ardour dev hat for a bit
 * Eickmeyer is back
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: Just tested -menu, we're still good with the icons.
<OvenWerk1> cool.
 * Eickmeyer is running a build of all recent packages for backports
<Eickmeyer> ....and now the build farm is stuck. >.<
<OvenWerk1> freeze points are close...
<Eickmeyer> Nah, it's not that it's busy. Nothing is moving.
<Eickmeyer> Happens occasionally. I typically pin #launchpad and they get stuff moving.
<Eickmeyer> Everything went through but -controls, but that's because I tried rebuilding the version already in the PPA. hehe, oops. Sorry for the faili mail.
<Eickmeyer> *fail mail
<Eickmeyer> Considering dropping this page altogether: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide
<OvenWerk1> Well it is a start... but no real info :P
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I feel like guiding people through workflows rather than let people develop their own workflow is outside of the scope of the project.
<Eickmeyer> If we had more people dedicated to working on documentation, that would be one thing, but this "User Guide" has been sitting there for ages with nothing of value that can't be found in the audio handbook or individual application guides found online.
<OvenWerk1> even less I think.
<Eickmeyer> By the way, I did a thing: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioControls
<Eickmeyer> Considering scrapping the entire "Older Versions" section.
<OvenWerk1> The older version is pre-any-suported-version
<OvenWerk1> I have never seen the version ;)
<Eickmeyer> Okay, scrapping away.
<OvenWerk1> I think I started using Studio at 10.10 or so
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I think we need to encourage people using 18.04 to add the backports PPA anyhow. 
 * Eickmeyer is off to do lunch & grocery shopping
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-27
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> https://twitter.com/ubuntustudio/status/1100566080202858496
<astraljava> o/ 
<astraljava> Hey all, nice to see the... err, wait. There aren't any familiar faces.
<astraljava> Well anyhoo, I'm <nick>, been in and out of this project for the past 10 years or so? Occasionally did a bit more, packaging and whatnot, but dropped out due to... life. Getting settled into the new way of it, and so thought it would be nice to check in on some old projects.
<astraljava> Will not commit to anything major-ish right now, but plan on sticking around more, and seeing if there is anything I could give a hand on.
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> good to read you astraljava! welcome back, or forth... welcome eitherway  :)
<sakrecoer> i believe the formation has changed a bit, being more like xubuntu: a commitee instead of a Project lead. Though Eickmeyer is the main coordinator atm i believe. 
<sakrecoer> i'm not as involved anymore either, but just recently i have been lurking arround whilst still being mostly useless
<astraljava> sakrecoer: Merci beacoup! Yeah, I guess that's how it's going to be for me, too. But let's see. :)
<Eickmeyer> astraljava: Hi! Welcome! I don't blame you for not committing to anything "major-ish" especially if you're busy. Right now, we're just trying to get stuff in for 19.04. OvenWerk1 and I have been working on a lot, as you can probably see.
<Eickmeyer> The biggest bottleneck we've got right now is that nobody has upload privs, so we've had to borrow MOTUs from other projects, such as tsimonq2.
<Eickmeyer> It's not ideal by any means.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-28
<astraljava> Eickmeyer: Thanks! Yeah that's been an issue every now and then. I wish I had time to commit to becoming a MOTU, but no can do. Maybe one day. :)
<sakrecoer> cool tsimonq2 you MOTU now? :) Congrats!
<tsimonq2> sakrecoer: I've been a Core Developer since August 2018 and MOTU since August 2017  :)
<tsimonq2> But thanks!
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> time flies... i droped out after 16.10 release, i suppose that is why it's news to me. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-02
<studiobot> SamuelBanya was added by: SamuelBanya
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Hey there Ubuntu Studio Dev team. I spoke to Erich over the Lubuntu Dev IRC channel and he said that you guys might need some help with a Python installer. I've worked on several Python based projects seen on my site, www.musimatic.net and I've even helped automate my actual day job with a related webscraper. I was wondering if I 
<studiobot> could help with making the Python based installer a reality.
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Feel free to @ ping me so I can see your related post here on Telegram and my email is SBanya@outlook.com
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @SamuelBanya [Hey there Ubuntu Studio Dev team. I spoke to Erich over the Lubuntu Dev IRC chan â¦], Take a look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-installer. We have it ready for release into Disco, but we do eventually want to make it a Python-based installer.
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Okay great
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Ill take a look sometime this weekend
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It has actually been a thing since forever, but we just got done retooling it.
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Ah I see
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Good to know
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Yeah Lubuntu team uses launch pad with phabricator so I'm familiar with it
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Do you guys use arc as well?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Cool.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Arc?
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> It's like git
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> No, we use git.
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Do you guys have a main repo?
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Great I prefer git anyway
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> What is required for push access or basic commits
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> What's your launchpad account?
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> I probably have to follow a related guide and make an account right?
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Id have to see
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> I linked it to my github
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> So it's probably the same as the one on my github aka github.com/sbanya
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I think, until Disco is released, I'd rather you didn't push to it. We can make Python a goal for 19.10.
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Thats fine too
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> When is 19.10 scheduled for release? Fall right?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @SamuelBanya [So it's probably the same as the one on my github aka github.com/sbanya], That's not it. Got a 404 from Launchpad.
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> I see
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yes. the number is yy.mm (Year/Month)
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> I probably linked my phab account then
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Ah good to know. Makes sense
<studiobot> <SamuelBanya> Thanks for clarifying
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> That's standard fo all Ubuntu flavors.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: I found you someone to convert the code to Python. Figured after -installer gets updated in Disco would be the time to make major changes like that.
<hb756> Hello. I'm a developer, and I'm looking for something to do. I am an ubuntu studio user, so I thought I'd try to contribute. I've followed some of the directions on the ubuntu site for setting up, ssh and gpg keys, launchpad login, etc, but as far as actually getting started, I can't seem to find that specifically, or what's there seems out of date. Can anyone here point me in a direction? Thanks.
<Eickmeyer> hb756: What do you wish to develop?
<hb756> well, I'm not sure exactly. I guess simple things at first just to get used to the process, using the right environment, packaging, .. so a simple text change or something to start off? 
<hb756> I mean I really don't know what all is involved. Like, version control? I guess it's not git?
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps. You do know that the Ubuntu Studio team doesn't develop any of the apps included, the user interface, or even the underlying operating system, right?
<Eickmeyer> We do develop a couple of utilities for configuration (Ubuntu Studio Controls, Ubuntu Studio Installer), but that's about it.
<Eickmeyer> For Ubuntu Studio, we do use git, but the rest of Ubuntu varies.
<hb756> I don't really know where the separation is. Sorry if I seem dense. 
<hb756> So do I need to target a specific application, I guess, then?
<Eickmeyer> There is no separation. Ubuntu Studio is merely a customized version of Ubuntu. The User Interface (Xfce) is mostly worked-on by the Xubuntu team, and the underlying operating system is the Ubuntu Core team with Canonical.
<Eickmeyer> If you want to target a specific application, you need to work with the upstream developer.
<Eickmeyer> Most of what we need with Ubuntu Studio, at this time, is documentation.
<hb756> Yeah, I really am looking to make coding contributions
<hb756> I guess I'm open to what exactly I would be doing. Just looking for a list of things that need to be done, then picking one I think I can do, an doing it.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, then that's fairly easy. Do me a favor and look over https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio, scour around there, and let me know where you see need for improvement or changes.
<Eickmeyer> If you feel you can contribute that way, let me know, and I'll add you to the team. :)
<Eickmeyer> Then you'll be allowed to make changes directly to that wiki.
<hb756> I think you are talking about refining some documentation?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, or adding some.
<Eickmeyer> But, that's up to you.
<hb756> I think I might have misled you somehow. I am wanting to do software development contributions.
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Do you have anything in mind?
<hb756> I was hoping that someone could suggest good first issues
<Eickmeyer> Well, aside from everything I told you about, everything else is pretty much outside of the scope of the Ubuntu Studio project.
<Eickmeyer> Some of us develop for other projects that are included. For instance, OvenWerk1 is an Ardour developer in addition to developing for Ubuntu Studio. I package Carla from KXStudio (working on getting it into Ubuntu right now).
<Eickmeyer> Do you know of any applications you would like to see in Ubuntu Studio?
<hb756> Well actually, if it doesn't already exist, there should be a simple application that allows audio loops to easily be created. Example, I am a lead guitar player, and I need to record a progression to practice with. It's of course possible with ardour or audacity, but I'd like to see an app that is dedicated to that and simple to use for that.
<hb756> Like being able to guess very closely to keep the tempo correct at the loop point
<hb756> and be right more times than not
<hb756> keep a list of past saves
<Eickmeyer> Well, we have SooperLooper...
<hb756> oh? I'll try it
<Eickmeyer> It pretty much does exactly what you're describing.
<hb756> awesome
<hb756> Hey, not sure if this is the right place for this or not, but in trying to check out that software sooperlooper, now I'm running into the "how the heck do I get audio to it" problem, or if there is no audio, how is the best way to troubleshoot it problem. any guidance? 
<hb756> It would be nice if qjactctl had some visual indication that this or that feed had some signal
<hb756> In audio, you have lights, or you can unplug something and put your finger on it to inject a small signal, and listen, or see the lights, you know?
<celesteh> Hello, I use evolution for my email client and it'#s stopped showing any of my folders. MY email does show up in searches, so I'm fairly sure it's still getting the email, but I can't see it unless I search for it
<Eickmeyer> !support | celesteh
<ubottu> celesteh: This is the Ubuntu Studio development channel. Our official support channel is on #ubuntustudio. Also see http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=335
<celesteh> ty
<Eickmeyer> celesteh: Additionally, I'd actually go to #ubuntu for that problem since it's not specific to Ubuntu Studio.
<celesteh> cheers
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-03
<OvenWerk1> So I am guessing the FF is more about having to have made people aware of needs by that time :(
<OvenWerk1> Eickmeyer: It seems to me all most all ubuntustudio-* packages are considered look kinds of things rather than features.
<OvenWerk1> Eickmeyer: however in our case, -installer and -controls and the changes to other ubuntustudio-* packages to make other flavour stduio installation work are our main feature :)
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Who has done the most uploads to Ubuntu Studio packages, and if so, how many?
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Meaning, uploads with your name in the changelog
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2 [Who has done the most uploads to Ubuntu Studio packages, and if so, how many?], That's a great question.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Probably me, in terms of entries in the changelogs.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I definitely have the most commits this cycle.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> https://wiki.debian.org/UltimateDebianDatabase
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Use that and tell me how many, with links to your uploads, and I can give you my personal opinion on whether the DMB would grant you PPU
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> (I happen to sit on the DMB, but in order to get the opinion from everyone else you'd need to attend the meeting}
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2 I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I honestly don't know how to use this just reading that page.
<OvenWerk1> in -installer and -controls in general changelog has one line per commit. In installer in particular some of those commits may be as much as two years old.
<OvenWerk1> We lost anyone who could do the uploads.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Getting upload rights of any kind has been an uphill battle for this project.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: You can correct me if I'm wrong, but only one person at a time on the Studio team has ever had upload rights, correct? If so, that needs to change. A team this size should have two people with upload rights.
<Eickmeyer> Otherwise, the bus factor is pretty bad.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2 Honestly, regardless of upload numbers, it needs to be one or both of us. Actuallly, I'd like to see Ross have upload rights, but he isn't around often enough.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> The entire active team is myself, Ross, and OvenWerk1 right now.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I don't know how to plead the case any better. Basically, if we can't get upload privs, or if someone with upload privs doesn't come alongside us, the project will die. This is a bad situation.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Hence my "cry for help" email.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> I'm trying to help you, Erich
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> The way it works is you connect to the UDD database with a (I think) postgresql client
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> And query from there
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Here: https://udd-mirror.debian.net/
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> That is your first step in figuring out if you can get upload access
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Additionally, each application is treated individually. Once you have one active person uploading, they can train the rest
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> I have resources for what I expect prospective Lubuntu Developers to have knowledge of, and while it's not complete yet, it is what I used for wxl:
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/lubuntu-dev/
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> It's on my TODO list as a DMB action item to generalize that for Ubuntu
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> I can help you out with uploads, but in order for me to review ten packages, I need you to meet me halfway with `check-all-the-things` reports, Lintian reports, and build logs on each.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Once I know you know what you're doing, which starts with gauging where you're at right now, I'll be happy to advocate you for PPU
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> If you don't want to do it but someone on the team needs to have upload access, I would expect the same from them
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> I don't recall what Ross is in Debian, but if he's a DD he just needs to demonstrate to the DMB that he has proven uploads to packages in Debian and knows the difference between Ubuntu and Debian processes. As someone who has been through the DD process, it's intense, and I know for a fact that if you pass that you know what you're d
<studiobot> oing.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> When I ask for upload numbers, I'm not looking for an arbitrary number. I'm looking for experience with packaging. If you've never dealt with Quilt, for example, I wouldn't advocate you or +1 you from the DMB side because it's a critical part of bugfixing
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> It's a process, and while I understand you have a cry for help out, it's not as simple as you'd think. In that wiki page I've laid out everything I'd expect a Lubuntu Developer to know, so once you meet that criteria I'd advocate you for any combination of PPU
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-24
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Looks like PipeWire is going to be backwards-compatible with ALSA, Jack, and PulseAudio: https://github.com/PipeWire/pipewire/blob/0.3.0/NEWS
<OvenWerks> Yes, that is the idea.
<OvenWerks> How well it will work is still an unknown
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-25
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: How's -controls?
<OvenWerks> moving... but slowly
<Eickmeyer[m]> Understood. Anything to the point where it would be bug fixes from here on?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: if we need to take the tablet things out. Maybe best to just remove the GUI and leave the stuff in -controls and autojack in place
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, if it comes down to it, we might have to. We can't introduce new features beyond tomorrow since the deadline is Thursday.
<OvenWerks> even to just disable the tab
<Eickmeyer[m]> Right.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, I'm off to do errands. Tag me if you need me.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: whatever you end up with, just tag me letting me know your last git push is ready. :)
<OvenWerks> pushed... lets do some testing
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, I'll get on it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> (just got home)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I have no way of testing the tablet stuff. Does it work at all?
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: The audio stuff works perfectly.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-26
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: My bad, apparently autobuild is disabled. I'm running a manual build.
<OvenWerks> The tbalet stuff should not even be visible
 * OvenWerks is emotionally worn down just now and finds it hard to work on very much.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: That's OK. The reason it was visible to me is because a build wasn't triggered, so I had the old version.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: It looks good. OK to release? I think it is.
<OvenWerks> yeah, we can add to backports
<OvenWerks> As far as I can see it is bug fixes for now.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Cool.
<OvenWerks> the xr18 will be able to select any output to use with pulse because it looks like it could the number of outputs the jack master has.
<Eickmeyer[m]> If not, routing with Carla or Patchage works.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Backport is building.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-27
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: FYI, the old cd /tmp && wget http://jackaudio.org/downloads/adevices.sh && bash ./adevices.sh |pastebinit
<OvenWerks> no longer works and should be replaced with:
<OvenWerks> cd /tmp && wget https://community.ardour.org/files/adevices.sh && bash ./adevices.sh |pastebinit
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: we should perhaps host the adevices.sh file somewhere in the wiki or something so if it vanishes from ardour.org too we still have it.
<OvenWerks> though honestly, if it vanishes from Ardour.org, it is likely because it is no longer relevant.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Probably true.
 * OvenWerks guesses actuall code or scripts in the wiki would be frowned on...
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm working on porting -controls, but I'm having trouble figure out where /usr/bin/jack_connect comes from.
<OvenWerks> it is either a part of jackd2 or jack-tools
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, I got my hand slapped for trying it once (RE: adevices.sh)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-28
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Your matrix client got kicked. heh
<teward> lol
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-29
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Found a nasty bug in ubuntustudio-system: Line #82 uses adduser when it should use usermod. Not sure when this changed, but it's erroring-out on other flavors. I already have a fix.
<Eickmeyer[m]> By erroring-out I mean it's not adding users to the audio group.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Another thing: the "invisible" tab for the tablet items is definitely visible under Plasma, though unlabled. I don't know how to fix that.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-01
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: that figures
<OvenWerks> I do not remember changing that to add user
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Yeah, it might have been that for legacy reasons, but it seems as though usermod is the way to go.
<OvenWerks> If it works put it in.
<OvenWerks> Not sure what to do about the other though
<OvenWerks> Let me know when you have done the user thing and then I will fix the extra tab.
<OvenWerks> (branch and delete I guess)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I did it last night and uploaded to the archive as well as a point release. No reason not to, but go ahead and do the fix if you haven't already and the release will be 1.12.2 at that point.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it should be done... not sure what to do with the changelog so I left that. Maybe test it first. works here but I don't have plasma installed right now.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, will do.
