#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-21
<flan> I *love* it when things just work as expected on the first try.
<flan> <3 Python
<flan> The Qs server now has easy-to-use screenshot reordering and configuration stuff.
<flan> Which was the hardest part of the design, IMO.
<ChrisWoollard> Hello
<ChrisWoollard> I noticed that i got the following email, is it important?
<ChrisWoollard> Hello Ubuntu Manual Team,
<ChrisWoollard> The membership of Ubuntu Manual Team (ubuntu-manual) in the Ubuntu
<ChrisWoollard> Documentation Contributors (ubuntu-doc-contributors) team has expired.
<ChrisWoollard> <https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors>
<ChrisWoollard> Regards,
<ChrisWoollard> The Launchpad team
<thorwil> ChrisWoollard: that was on the list. i guess Ben will take action, if that is actually relevant
<ubuntujenkins> morning
<thorwil> good morning, ubuntujenkins
<ChrisWoollard> morning
<ubuntujenkins> hey thorwil and ChrisWoollard
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<drizzt_> should the suggestion be reported as bugs?
<ubuntujenkins> drizzt_: what suggestion?
<drizzt_> suggestions about manual contents ofc
<ubuntujenkins> sorry can you repeat it or link me the e-mail i think i missed it
<drizzt_> sorry link you what? I'm asking about preferred channel of submitting suggestions concerning ubuntu manual project, if you accept them, obviously
<ubuntujenkins> o a bug report would be fine. I thought you had already made a suggestion earlier .
<ubuntujenkins> we love suggestions
<drizzt_> great
<drizzt_> which manual should be translated? lucid-e2 or lucid-e1, for some reason Launchpad recommends -e1, is it correct?
<ubuntujenkins> drizzt_: e1 sould be the one to translate
<drizzt_> what's the difference?
<thorwil> drizzt_: edition 1 and 2
<ubuntujenkins> edition 2 is the next release for lucid
<thorwil> drizzt_: english original of e1 has been frozen quite a while ago. e2 will need work
<drizzt_> i see.
<daker> check that http://www.vuvuzela-time.co.uk/www.google.com
<humphreybc> daker: hahahha
<daker> \o/
<daker> humphreybc,  the final will NZ vs BRA ?
<humphreybc> daker: ahahaha
<daker> Portugal vs Brasil will be a good match
<humphreybc> I hope NZ win against paraguay
<daker> i don't think so hahahaha
 * nisshh feels releived
<nisshh> finally got my system back up
 * ubuntujenkins 's laptop is burning hot
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: be environment-conscious and cook something on it!
<daker> hahaha
<ubuntujenkins> lol thorwil
<daker> a GOOOAAAl GOOOAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
<c7p> lol
<dutchie> wave is no longer beta
<dutchie> looks like we can switch from etherpad to that if we like
<daker> GOOAALLLLLLL GOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLL  GOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL
<daker> NO
<daker> :s
<dutchie> disallowed?
<daker> David villa missed a pernalty
<daker> penalty
<c7p> I have many days to see godbyk on channel (I mean talking), is he on holidays ?
<daker> c7p, maybe
<daker> he is on holidays to watch the World cup :)
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: he may be at a latex confrence I can't rember when he is going
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: I checked it, it starts next week
<ubuntujenkins> probably busy then . what do you want to ask him?
<c7p> I've sent him an email about the todo thing of the translated manual, but it's very strange that I haven't talked with him on channel for almost a week :p
<ubuntujenkins> I haven't either. feel free to send me the mail he explained how to do most of the stuff to me.
<ubuntujenkins> I am not as good as the real godbyk
<c7p> ok I am sending you the mail :)
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will see what i can do to help
<c7p> thx man
<ubuntujenkins> can you send me this email "
<ubuntujenkins> correct some of the glossary entries' number references (see the mail "glossary entries, page number references" that I've sent you) "
<c7p> done :d
<ubuntujenkins> thanks is the .tex file in lucid-e1?
<c7p> yap
<ubuntujenkins> not exaclty sure how to fix the glossry as that is all done automatically. we shall work it out
<ubuntujenkins> what language code it it?
<ubuntujenkins> *is it?
 * ubuntujenkins has not pulled on lucid-e1 in a while someone has added loads
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: the lang code is el
<ubuntujenkins> right lets look
<ubuntujenkins> hmm I have no index
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: you will have to e-mail it to me as xchat transfer fails for me and i don't kno why
<c7p> ok
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> thanks running it now
<ubuntujenkins> ok then blank page removed
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: which page is the revison and date stuff on?
<ubuntujenkins> as per "place the REVISION_DATE stuff on the next line   "
<c7p> you mean on pdf?
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<c7p> pg 3 (of 178)
<ubuntujenkins> do you mean you want the date on one line and the revsion number on the next?
<ubuntujenkins> also do you see japanease letters in the index on the left of evince?
<ubuntujenkins> can you please see if the index entries are numbered correctly on http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/ubuntu-manual-el.pdf
 * ubuntujenkins nudges c7p 
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: sry I clean up the mess on hard drive
<c7p> "do you mean you want the date on one line and the revsion number on the next?"  yes :)
<ubuntujenkins> no problem :)
<ubuntujenkins> cool ok
<ubuntujenkins> I will try and do that
<c7p> wow
<c7p> i see many entries over and over again
<c7p> are you sure that you have the lattest tex file ?
<ubuntujenkins> yep i pulled at 21.09
<ubuntujenkins> today
<c7p> I don't know, it seems like it has bugs that we have fixed before weeks :/
<ubuntujenkins> hmm e-mail me yours if you like and I will diff them and see
<ubuntujenkins> unless kevin ahs not updated the branch
<c7p> idk what happened, message has been sent
<ubuntujenkins> One way or another they are not the same
<c7p> use mine tex file it has many many bug fixes
<ubuntujenkins> yep doing so now
<ubuntujenkins>  do you see japanease letters in the index on the left of evince?
<ubuntujenkins> i need to go I will try and sort what i can tomorrow
<ubuntujenkins> bye all
<c7p> g night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-22
<flan> http://uguu.ca/245/another-quickshot-teaser/
<flan> I think it's starting to look almost pretty.
<nisshh> humphreybc: i hope we didnt have a meeting this weekend, did we?
<humphreybc> nope
<ubuntujenkins> !ping
<manualbot> pong
<ubuntujenkins> !ping
 * ubuntujenkins thinks manualbot is not very fast at ping pong
<ChrisWoollard> !pong
<manualbot> pong is an old atari game. It's fun!
<flan> ubuntujenkins, http://uguu.ca/245/another-quickshot-teaser/
<flan> Any ideas on things that could make that more intuitive?
<flan> Layout-wise.
<ubuntujenkins> that looks great, perhaps add the full language name next to the language code
<flan> Would that really matter to an admin?
<flan> (Trying to weigh space and clutter versus practicality)
<ubuntujenkins> hmm not sure i do have to look up which one is which . Just if the person has no clue, the manual team deals with lanaguage codes as thats how we build them. other teams may not be use to them. on builds.ubuntu-manual.org does not look bad
<ubuntujenkins> some are a bit long
<ubuntujenkins> I am not liking glade at the moment it is proving very hard to get things correct
<flan> Out of curiosity, since you know more about it than I do, what, exactly, does Babel give us?
<flan> I get that it translates the name of the working language, but does it offer anything else?
<flan> I'm thinking that maybe we could just remove it and get Turkish working that way.
<flan> Or alternatively wrap it in an ImportError-handler and fall back to plain language codes.
<flan> I mean, most people should be able to recognize their language code, even if they don't normally use Roman characters.
<flan> Most people who'd be helping a multi-lingual documentation project*
<ubuntujenkins> Babel gives us the language code in a pretty word. Thats all i know. We have a contigent for if bebal does not know what it is and that just shows the code. It does give us more hassle than it is worth
<flan> So, yeah, since we don't actually need the decimal module or pickle for anything we do natively, if you wrap babel's import in a "try: import babel; except ImportError: babel = None" block, then test to see if it has a value before attempting to use it, the Turkish issue should go away.
<flan> Without impacting anything else.
<flan> Except other languages that might break with it.
<flan> But those will just fall back to language code.
<ubuntujenkins> Yea I think that would be a good idea
<flan> Can you hack that or do you want me to do it during lunch?
<flan> It should be pretty simple.
<ubuntujenkins> I will give it ago and see how i get on
<flan> We should also consider dropping babel as a requirement for 1.0, if we can't really justify it. It adds 1.8MB and we're only using, like, maybe 2K of that.
<flan> We might be able to just rip its language table out of the source and parse it ourselves.
<ubuntujenkins> yea another good idea.
<_ubuntujenkins> not much is translated in turkish
<flan> Well, we probably can't expect much in non-Western languages this early in the project's lifecycle.
<_ubuntujenkins> fixed that bug all you need to do is add
<_ubuntujenkins>         except KeyError:
<_ubuntujenkins>             #This happens because of a python error for turkish
<_ubuntujenkins>             pass
<_ubuntujenkins> in line 346
<flan> So Babel imports fine?
<_ubuntujenkins> yep
<_ubuntujenkins> we already have a work around for latin there
<flan> Oh, I see what you did.
<flan> A bit hackish, but it'll do.
<flan> (Since we'll be dropping that logic anyway)
<_ubuntujenkins> I would not have been able to work that out a 6 months ago :)
<flan> Hacks are a great way to learn.
<_ubuntujenkins> I suppose i should to a bug fix release?
<_ubuntujenkins> brb
<flan> They teach more about good design than rigourous adherence to "best practises" without actually learning why those practises are best.
<ubuntujenkins> xchat has got bad some how _ubuntujenkins and flan are both yellow
<ubuntujenkins> sweet that package should be built in the ppa and ready for people to update in 30mins
<c7p> hello all
<flan> Yay.
<flan> I hope it works.
<flan> Hi, c7p.
<ubuntujenkins> hey c7p have you looked at builds.ubuntu-manual.org it looks like kevin has done some of the things on the list. like adding revision number and date on two lines. Also I have an issue with building at the moment I get japanese letters in the index to the left of evince
<c7p> hey ubuntujenkins I was afk
<c7p> yap revision stuff is ok :)
<c7p> I don't know why japanese letters appear on your index :(
<ubuntujenkins> neither do i I need to grad godbyk on that one
<c7p> do you use the script I sent you yesterday ?
<ubuntujenkins> yep, I had this problem before i think its my latex install
<c7p> maybe
<c7p> hm I think we should try eliminating  those 4 warnings during the build (http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/). What do you think ?
<ubuntujenkins> I will have a look
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: I am not sure which warnings the 4 is on about if you look for the word "warning" in the log file there is loads of them.
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: yes, exclude those about margin notes
<ubuntujenkins> ok lets make a list
<ubuntujenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/elerrors
<c7p> ubuntujenkins do you have the link of the list of things that have to be done before the release of a translation edition handy ?
<ubuntujenkins> yep just get it
<ubuntujenkins> .ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo
<ubuntujenkins> pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo
<c7p> ty
<ubuntujenkins> all the non margin errors are no on the pad
<c7p> ok nice
<c7p> why they are more than 4 ?
<ubuntujenkins> no clue
<c7p> :/ it's so ... I don't know ... confusing
<ubuntujenkins> yep this is definatley a godbyk job i am afraid
<c7p> probably
<c7p> can you make a similar list of the warnings from http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual-de.log ?
<ubuntujenkins> sure
<c7p> so we can compare the warnings if there are any on german build
<ubuntujenkins> I will do later as my sister is steeling my laptop
<c7p> :p ok
<c7p> brb in 10 min. ok ?
 * c7p back
<flan> That was twenty-two minutes.
 * flan can't trust you anymore.
<c7p> :p
<c7p> i was waiting 12 minutes for the ok
<c7p> 12 mins is ok timeout haha
<ubuntujenkins> I will be back after dinner etc
 * ubuntujenkins has got his laptop back at last
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
 * ubuntujenkins still uses ctrl+s automatically even on etherpad
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: hello i made i back and have made the german list
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: good job :D ty
<ubuntujenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/elerrors
<c7p> the sixth warning doesn't exist
<c7p> we use different font so we are ok
<c7p> the same thing happens with 3rd and 4th warning
<ubuntujenkins> the 4th is the same as the 6th, when did the font change?
<c7p> from almost the beggining
<c7p> because we had a problem with greek letters
<c7p> some letters where highlighted while others not
<ubuntujenkins> why is it not the same in builds.ubuntu-manual.org ? we must still be using the old font somewhere i guess
<c7p> no
<daker> check that we must still be using the old font somewhere i guess
<c7p> but let me check it
<daker> sorry
<daker> http://www.ubuntugeek.com/download-free-ubuntu-10-04-lucid-lynx-pdf-guide.html#more-6253
<c7p> you can see the um-greek.clo file
<daker> the "Download now" is ponting this link http://ubuntugeek.tradepub.com/c/pubRD.mpl/?pc=w_ubun01
<c7p> that's all about fonts if my memory deserves me well
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: if you look at the um-greek.clo file mine says Linux Libertine
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: i thought we were using serif :/
<c7p> daker: why is that so ?
<ubuntujenkins> daker: I cant download it
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: I will search on my mails for more info about the fonts
<ubuntujenkins> thanks c7p
<ubuntujenkins> daker: are its ok its chromium
<daker> when you click one the link you are redirect to http://ubuntugeek.tradepub.com/free/w_ubun01/
<ubuntujenkins> why are people putting our manual behind spam walls! :/
 * ubuntujenkins gets anoyed
<dutchie> i suppose we should be pleased in a way
<flan> Because, to quote an unnamed source, the Intenret is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas.
<flan> Our course of action is clear: build a better Internet.
<flan> Or re-engineer society.
<flan> Either way.
<ubuntujenkins> hmm but its not publisisng the team. and people can get it with out giving up so much info
 * ubuntujenkins is tempted to ask by using http://www.ubuntugeek.com/contact
<daker> when you click "Request now" your are redirect to http://ubuntugeek.tradepub.com/free/w_ubun01/prgm.cgi
<flan> Curtly ask they they put a link to our site in the article's body.
<flan> Or politely.
<flan> I like being a jerk.
<flan> that they*
<daker> the same thing as the other site, the one found by humphreybc
<ubuntujenkins> Iwas just going to ask that they link to our site
<ubuntujenkins> you have to give so much information just to get it
<flan> daker, any quick design tips to make http://uguu.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/qs-preview-2.png more aesthetically pleasing?
<flan> Information *and* time.
<flan> I'd give up before subscribing to some site I'll never visit again.
<ubuntujenkins> Hello,
<ubuntujenkins> It is great that you are promoting the manual, would you be able to put a link to our site so that people can find out more about our team? Our site is www.ubuntu-manual.org.
<ubuntujenkins> Thanks
<ubuntujenkins> Luke
<ubuntujenkins> is what i am going to send
<ubuntujenkins> any thoughts?
<ubuntujenkins> I would like to write stop using a spam wall! but i will not
<flan> I'd mention that it should be a prominent link.
<flan> The way they present it, it looks like they're saying they wrote it.
<flan> Which is what I accused that other site of doing.
<flan> In the message I wrote to them.
<flan> Because I'm a jerk.
<flan> (I made the accusation politely)
<flan> (But the subtext was clear)
<ubuntujenkins> ok now reads
<ubuntujenkins> It is great that you are promoting the manual, would you be able to put a predominate link to our site so that people can find out more about our team? That way they can get involved in helping us to write it
<ubuntujenkins> doh predominate!
<ubuntujenkins> done sent
<ubuntujenkins> will i get a response?
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: I didn't find any mail from godbyk, but I find our talk on channel http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/12/%23ubuntu-manual.html#t19:18
<daker> flan, i think bredcrumbs should be great for the navigation
<flan> What do you mean?
<daker> something like this http://blog.jaysalvat.com/_library/2009/10/breadcrumbs/breadcrumb0.png
<ubuntujenkins> all this talk of bread crumbs makes me hungry
<daker> \o/
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: hmm the *.clo file has some comments in it. We will have to ask godbyk what his thinking was on that
 * c7p omg I miss godbyk :D
<daker> give me more screenshots
<ubuntujenkins> of food?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: is there anything else we can do?
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: nope :D we are waiting for godbyk
<flan> I already have that, though.
<c7p> topo fixed almost all the bugs if not all but still we need godbyk to approve the release of pdf
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: cool If we all ping him at once :P
<flan> The small text above the title links back to the parent.
<ubuntujenkins> for a moment I thought flan had thought of food
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: hehe
<c7p> well I'm having :p brb
<flan> I can go one better than giving you screenshots, daker. I can give you live access, if you're okay with resisting the urge to start rebuilding the whole thing.
<flan> (I'm making too many changes each night for a redesign to be practical at this time)
 * ubuntujenkins has finaly worked out why facebook in pigin was not working
<daker> flan, i making some mockups for you
<flan> Don't go into too much detail. I've still got about half of the system to go.
<flan> (There are about eight more pages left to craft)
<flan> (I was mostly looking for tips on colours and fonts on that one)
<flan> I mean, I appreciate all the work you're willing to invest, but I don't want any of it to go to waste.
<flan> I'll be asking for a full review when it's functionally complete, in early July.
<flan> When you can freely change anything you'd like, without needing to worry about whether or not a feature is missing.
<flan> (I'm keeping the code as separate from the interface as possible)
<flan> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/server/annotate/head:/quickshot/quickshot/templates/root_project.mako ius the code behind that image.
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: Is there anything else I can do today ?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: not as far as I know, wish i could do more
<c7p> so do I :/
<daker> flan, kk
<flan> (The CSS file is currently a mess. I promise to organize and document everything before I turn it over to you)
<c7p> night all :)
<flan> G'night, c7p.
<ubuntujenkins> night c7p
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-23
<humphreybc> alright
<humphreybc> time to get shit done
<humphreybc> Okay, i just tallied up all the bug reports
<humphreybc> so far, we've had 5 people meet the 10 confirmed bugs requirement
<humphreybc> Marc Stewart far exceeded that, with about 50 reported(!)
<humphreybc> And we have two people, Martin Lukes and "Andrew" who have 9 reported.
<Zeike> humphreybc, what is the prize?
<humphreybc> Zeike: If you win, it's a copy of the manual
<humphreybc> flan, you around?
<humphreybc> thorwil: you need to make a new logo for the Quickshot team :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: i have that on my list, although with low priority. hoping to get a good idea out of the blue. didn't happen so far
<thorwil> vish: any ideas for the quickshot logo?
<humphreybc> I've pretty much finished the Quickshot website design
<humphreybc> didn't take long :)
<humphreybc> Just have to run it past Luke and flan
<vish> thorwil: /me thinking
<humphreybc> something with the right colour palette
<humphreybc> ie, orange, aubergine and shades of gray
 * humphreybc is tempted to make thorwil re-do the UMP logo to make it more ubunt-ey 
 * thorwil wonders if humphreybc likes to run into a wall, head-first
<thorwil> good morning, ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> morning thorwil
<ubuntujenkins> they added a link to our website on ubuntu geek! http://www.ubuntugeek.com/download-free-ubuntu-10-04-lucid-lynx-pdf-guide.html#more-6253
<ubuntujenkins> http://www.ubuntugeek.com/download-free-ubuntu-10-04-lucid-lynx-pdf-guide.html
<ubuntujenkins> thats link ^
<thorwil> but why that messed up thumbnail with ump logo added?
<ubuntujenkins> I did not even expect a response. For some reason they want to collect loads of info to give out the manual like the page be found
<ubuntujenkins> ben
<ubuntujenkins> yea I have it solved :)
<ubuntujenkins> check this out! http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/89110/quickshot_008_B1bPsK.png I have it at last
<ubuntujenkins> It has taken ages to get this correct
 * ubuntujenkins nudges flan to look at ^  when he gets up
<ubuntujenkins> daker:  check this out! http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/89110/quickshot_008_B1bPsK.png
<daker> beautiful
<ubuntujenkins> I know it has taken days to get it right.
<ubuntujenkins> I fell like i am on a roll no
<ubuntujenkins> now
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: the text on top is redundant, you should drop it
<ubuntujenkins> Which bit? "quickshot"
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: "Please fill in ..."
<thorwil> especially the 2nd sentence, as the checkbox label tells you the same
<ubuntujenkins> very true
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: everything is clear, except for the Project/Description area. what is that about?
<ubuntujenkins> You have to choose which project that you want to take screenshots for.
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: consider to add a label to it. like "Projects to take screenshots for:"
<ubuntujenkins> done :) just doing a picture to show you
<ubuntujenkins> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/89126/quickshot_009_zKd44q.png
<ubuntujenkins> thoughts now please
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: consider to remove the Close button. but if it stays, and if the next page has a Previous button, make sure each button stays in the same position on all pages
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: such that the Previous button will not be there where Close is on the first page
<ubuntujenkins> I had not thought about a previous button if i move the close to the far left and add a pevious
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: ok, so the long from with "Choose ...". you have a . instead of : at the end
<ubuntujenkins> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/89128/quickshot_011_M7WnSf.png what about now
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: good. make it a tiny bit wider, or switch to the shorter "Projects to take screenshots for:" or even better "Take screenshots for:" label
<thorwil> dang
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: good. make it a tiny bit wider, or switch to the shorter "Projects to take screenshots for:" or even better "Take screenshots for:" label
<ubuntujenkins> chnaged
<ubuntujenkins> thanks thorwil I will run some more past you when i have done them if thats ok
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: that's fine
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: quickshot is now www.facebook.com/quickshotteam and www.twitter.com/quickshotteam
<daker> flan, ping
<daker> ubuntujenkins, ping
<daker> http://gomockingbird.com/mockingbird/index.html?project=5e8d3e0ab985024303b05b7d791f686f16f42098
<ubuntujenkins> daker: pong
<daker> http://gomockingbird.com/mockingbird/index.html?project=5e8d3e0ab985024303b05b7d791f686f16f42098
<ubuntujenkins> thats really cool, what is the mockingbird a mock up site?
<ubuntujenkins> why the facebook logo in several places?
<ubuntujenkins> I like it, what does your comment say in the comment box? just interested
<daker_> the facebook logo is there just t represent the application logo
<ubuntujenkins> thats what i guessed
<ubuntujenkins> Is the large grey bar at the top of the browser part of the website or part of mockingbird?
<daker_> yes
<daker_> mockingbird
<ubuntujenkins> I look forward to the real thing
<ubuntujenkins> england vs slovina starts in 15 minutes
<daker> USA vs Algerie in 15minutes
<ubuntujenkins> lets hope england can win
<daker> \o/
<daker> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=102416
<ubuntujenkins> brilliant
<flan> That mockup scares me.
<ubuntujenkins> hey flan, why?
<flan> It scares me because it is absolute overkill and far, far from the sense of minimalism I want.
<ubuntujenkins> that is just the page that every one sees not that admin stuff
<flan> Facebook? Ratings? Tags? Links to the project manual before it's even been compiled?
<flan> Well, yes, perhaps, but it's a task-based system. The public interface exists only so people can get an idea of what still needs to be done.
<flan> Although this could work well for the central server.
<flan> If repurposed a little.
<ubuntujenkins> well the facebook is ment to be our logo. We would nto have contbiutors pictures as we have no way to get them.  we could have a link to builds.ubuntu-manual.org
<ubuntujenkins> saying they are draft versions
<flan> But not every project will be following out build model.
<flan> our*
<ubuntujenkins> yea thats true I keep forgetting that
<ubuntujenkins> I am getting there wiht the gui http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/89128/quickshot_011_M7WnSf.png is a page it like
<ubuntujenkins> one lable has changed on that so that screenshot is slighlty out atm
<flan> I'd like to suggest separating that into two steps.
<ubuntujenkins> I can do, I will give it a go
<flan> The first time Quickshot starts up, the user should be prompted to enter personal information (and this prompt should be made available from a menu at any later time).
<flan> More information that that will be desired. I'll link to the database definition in a moment.
<ubuntujenkins> so a prefernces option
<flan> Yeah.
<flan> Like have a Project | Preferences | Help set at the top menu level.
<ubuntujenkins> yea something like that works well
<flan> The second screen, which becomes the default once personal information has been set (stored in ~/.quickshot/contributor_profile or something), would allow for project selection.
<ubuntujenkins> GGGGGOOOOOOOOOOALLLLLLLLLlll
<ubuntujenkins> yea i see makes sense.
<flan> A list that contains references to all things pulled fromt he central server, a list of recently opened projects (~/.quickshot/recent_projects), an input field for entering a web address to pull project information, and a browse field for finding a .qsproj file.
<flan> I'll write a library for that which will take any form of input and output a server-session object.
<flan> Which can be used for all interactions with the server,
<ubuntujenkins> cool that sounds great, I will finish what i have and show you it all
<ubuntujenkins> I think i need to rearage what i have
<flan> There'll probably be a lot of tuning.
<flan> Glad to see you got the Gnome HIG stuff worked out, though.
<flan> Just padding around the hboxes?
<ubuntujenkins> yea, we want to get this right. I do a hbox which had the menu bar in and then in the other part of the hbox but a hbox with a 12 pixel border is the best way i have found
<ubuntujenkins> *but > put
<flan> It definitely looks natural as it's laid out right now.
<flan> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/server/annotate/head:/quickshot/quickshot/model/__init__.py
<ubuntujenkins> I was pleased when i cracked that this morning
<flan> 168-171 is all I've come up with for trackable information.
<flan> If you can think of anything else, just add it to that table and the one below it.
<ubuntujenkins> yep i have that saved some where
<ubuntujenkins> will do
<flan> It's really the same as what you have, only with an extra website field.
<flan> Which will be exposed in the project information, if provided.
<flan> (E-mails will only be visible to owners)
<flan> (So it'll be up to them to decide whether the e-mail address goes into the final document or not)
<flan> (They're just necessary unique identifiers)
<humphreybc> I have the draft of the new QS website to show you guys :)
<flan> Ooh.
<flan> And we have screenshots of the in-development server.
 * ubuntujenkins nods at flans comments
<ubuntujenkins> hey humphreybc
<flan> And daker's mockup, from which I think I can draw stylistic inspiration (but which is total overkill for an admin-oriented backend).
<humphreybc> have a looksie, http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/quickshot-pngs.zip
<humphreybc> be back in a sec
<flan> I'm thinking a .sqproj file will, at this point, really just be a URL pointing to a config path on the server.
<flan> Which means the recent projects file can be as simple as a series of names paired with URLs.
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I don't like the orange of blue/green not sure its quite right
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: It's meant to follow similar styles to our site and the Ubuntu site
<flan> The three pages all look a little too similar, what with the image on the right...
<flan> Just a placeholder?
<humphreybc> nope, the idea is that the text just fades in and out
<humphreybc> when you change page
<flan> Ah.
<humphreybc> but I'm happy to have more images
<ubuntujenkins> our facebook is www.facebook.com/quickshotteam to match our twitter
<ubuntujenkins> flan: are you on facebook so i can add you as a page admin?
<flan> http://uguu.ca/ The first two posts talk about the QS server, with actual screenshots. (Though I'm making lots of tweaks)
<flan> I am now.
<flan> humphreybc just set it.
<flan> Oh.
<flan> Wait.
<flan> No.
<flan> Not on Facebook.
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough
<flan> I'm not a fan of social media.
<flan> It is evil.
<ubuntujenkins> lol :)
<flan> EVIL.
 * flan hisses.
<humphreybc> well when we have more solid screenshots, we can put them on the site
<humphreybc> nothing's happening yet, we don't even have a domain name :)
<ubuntujenkins> well we have facebook and twitter, I hope to get lots of people testing by taking screenshots of quickshot for our docs
<humphreybc> But I have about half a dozen design things to do so I'm nailing the UMP related ones first
<flan> I'm projecting full functionality by early July, with testing and client-side libraries (so people could start building Qs server access into their own applications) by mid-July.
<ubuntujenkins> I like this site http://ground-control.org/
<flan> But I'm moving in mid-July, so that might get pushed back a little.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: I wanted to make it simpler than that
<humphreybc> there's far too much text :)
<ubuntujenkins> but its shiney :)
<humphreybc> lol
<ubuntujenkins> moving far flan ? england ?
<humphreybc> also, the get involved link will take you to ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved and will be on the "Programmer" role
<flan> No. Within Calgary.
<ubuntujenkins> we should have a manual team meet at some point
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I think that the manual site shoudl point at us no the other way around
<humphreybc> what do you mean?
<humphreybc> quickshot is going to get www.quickshot.org
<flan> It is?
<humphreybc> yes indeed
<flan> I thought we were taking quickshot.ubuntu-manual.org.
<ubuntujenkins> "the get involved link will take you to ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved and will be on the "Programmer" role" I think it should be on our site that you get linked to. from the manual site
<humphreybc> just temporarily
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc has big plans as always :)
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: no, because Quickshot isn't the only programming project UMP has
<flan> Is there a good reason for launching an independent site when we're really just producing a tool for a niche audience?
<flan> A niche audience that we'd want to have contribute to UMP wherever possible?
<humphreybc> flan: the idea of its own site is to try and widen the audience
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: but then quickshot will not only be used by the manual team
<humphreybc> exactly
<flan> But widen it to whom? Granted, I have no intention of building anything so it's only usable on Ubuntu, but I don't see a problem with having hosting association between the two projects.
<humphreybc> other teams within Ubuntu, other distros
<humphreybc> The links will still be there, from the text at the bottom, cross-linking and obviously the style will be similar
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: the word quickhsot on http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/programmers should link to the quickshot get invloved page
<flan> Well, yes, but it's not like having a different URL will instantly spread word-of-mouth.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: I don't want to have multiple get involved things when people are mainly coming to the same place to ask how they can help
<humphreybc> flan: No it won't, but I still think the project needs its own URL
<flan> Politically, we're supportng UMP and UMP is providing us with traffic to boost our exposure. (Even though, practically, we'd be working on other projects within UMP and other parts of the greater community)
<ubuntujenkins> the page i linked has almost nothing on quickhsot when someone joins i tell them lots of things
<flan> And then they get scared and run away. =P
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<humphreybc> just trust me
<humphreybc> :)
<ubuntujenkins> I tell then to look at
<ubuntujenkins> ?style
<quickshotdevs> The Quickshot code base tries to follow some conventions  a list of them is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/style .
<flan> I want to, but I think your ambition may be a little misguided on this point.
<humphreybc> we can always quite easily hack up a get involved page on quickshot.org
<ubuntujenkins> ?branch
<quickshotdevs> Factoid 'branch' not found
<ubuntujenkins> ?help
<quickshotdevs> Useage: ?<factoid> Examples: ?website , ?blueprint , ?qssource , ?involved , ?question , ?style , ?use , ?ppa , ?quickshot , ?code , ?launchpad , ?bug
<ubuntujenkins> ?qssource
<quickshotdevs> The main development focus for the gui can be viewed by doing "bzr branch lp:quickshot"  . The server source is "bzr branch lp:quickshot/server ".  You can browse it here https://code.launchpad.net/quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> ?code
<ubuntujenkins> etc you get the ides :)
<humphreybc> yep
<flan> Maybe it's sentiment, but I kinda want to make it seem like the Quickshot project is closely associated with UMP and that UMP is demonstrating its intention to share its resources with everyone.
<flan> And that using quickshot.ubuntu-manual.org would do that better than an independent domain.
<humphreybc> quickshot.ubuntu-manual.org is far too long
<flan> Far too long for who, though?
<humphreybc> maybe qs.ubuntu-manual.org or ubuntu-manual.org/quickshot
<humphreybc> or /qs
<humphreybc> memorability
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual.org isn't particularly good either
<flan> It's not a page people will be visiting every day, though...
<humphreybc> no I know
<ubuntujenkins> I think in our meeting a while ago we said quickshot.ubuntu-manual.org would do untill we got bigger
 * flan AFKs for thirty minutes, but wants to continue this discussion.
<humphreybc> I've got to go to bed, it's almost 3am
<ubuntujenkins> night then humphreybc
<humphreybc> we should have a meeting this weekend, yeah
<ubuntujenkins> ggggrrr off side
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: my dad is asking ME to get on the fifa site and check the score, just coz he cant be bothered to get off his ass
<ubuntujenkins> what can't he watch telly? of do it him self
<ubuntujenkins> thank goodness david james is good
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: no, my dad is a lazy bloke, and he is watching his favourite show over the soccer right now :)
<ubuntujenkins> hehe
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
<flan> Back.
<ubuntujenkins> hey flan ben went to bed it was 3am for him
<ubuntujenkins> 3 minutes left on the england game
<ubuntujenkins> please waste time england
<ubuntujenkins> yeeeeesssss
<flan> I saw.
<flan> Him.
<flan> Not the game.
<flan> Your game is silly.
<ubuntujenkins> lol
 * flan disses sports.
 * flan expects to die.
<ubuntujenkins> just because canada is no there :P
<ubuntujenkins> *not
<flan> No, I just dislike sports.
<flan> That applies to hockey and whatever else we play in Canada, too.
<flan> Lacrosse, I guess.
<daker> congratulations ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> daker: thanks, I thought my defending was good :P
<flan> Thanks for the mockup, daker. I'll take what I can from it, but I'm afraid our views of the scope of the project differ quite a bit.
<flan> What I'm working on is just the admin backend for the Quickshot server: the thing people like ubuntujenkins will see when managing the screenshots for a project.
<flan> Your design seems more suited to the Quickshot homepage, where we're planning to centralize a bunch of projects.
<flan> (User base of about three or four people versus a whole community)
<flan> I killed him with feedback. D:
<ubuntujenkins> be back later
<thorwil> 0.o http://html5zombo.com/
<c7p> lol
<daker> yep it's HTML5
<c7p> html5 is enriched html4 ?
<daker> html5 give more power and more flexibility as you can see here http://zombo.com/ this is a flash annimation
<daker> and with HTML5 he can do the same thing http://html5zombo.com/
<daker> just with metatags
<dutchie> and no flash \o/
<daker> yep
<c7p> cool
<daker> dutchie, well you can use flash in your html document but and you can make annimation just by combining HTML+javascript(jquery or Motools)
<c7p> so the whole animation and sound (very funny btw) stuff in what format is saved ? (sry for silly questions :D)
<dutchie> daker: yes, but i wish flash would die, because it is proprietary, insecure, and the performance is terrible
<c7p> daker now i see
<daker> c7p, .html , the sound is an mp3
<c7p> ok ty :)
<daker> i can play a sound just like that         <audio autoplay="autoplay" playcount="999" id="looper" loop="true">
<daker>             <source src="sound.mp3"></source>
<daker>             <source src="sound.ogg"></source>
<daker>         </audio>
<daker> you don't have to put any flash player to the sounds :)
<c7p> I'm impressed :D, I love html5 hehe
<daker> hohohoh 2-0
<daker> 5 mini between two goals
<ubuntujenkins> hello all
<daker> hi ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
<daker> 2 - 1
<daker> another time Jabulani
<daker> c7p, Ghana ouep
<c7p> ghana and germany are on 16 ?
<daker> yep
<daker> USA and ENG
<daker> dutchie, ping
<dutchie> pong
<daker> do you know about internalisation in django ?
<dutchie> i know it exists
<dutchie> i have never used it
<daker> oki
<daker> we should collaborate in the next few weeks
<daker> check that http://www.neatorama.com/2010/06/22/click-here/
<daker> \o/
<daker> So good check http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CH9tYHEWnDk/TCC8LKfWJlI/AAAAAAAAM1o/q6R7Q8LVj5Y/s1600/Isabel-MastacheTrouser1.jpg
<daker> guys!!! do you think we should install a forum for the project ? forum.ubuntu-manual.org ?
<c7p> yes for sure
<daker> or the ML is enough ?
 * dutchie dislikes fora
<c7p> well it helps very much, you don't have to search through the whole mess of messages to find some useful info, everything is categorized
<dutchie> some people like them
<dutchie> not for me
<daker> c7p, +1
<c7p> on the forum we can have different sections for translators, editors, developers future plans etc ;)
<daker> subsections too
<c7p> yap
<daker> we should detail this point in the next meeting
<c7p> we can discuss about it on the next meeting
<daker> \o/
<c7p> :p
<daker> http://www.videocorner.tv/videocorner2/live_flv/index.php?langue=en
<ubuntujenkins> daker: what about making it a docs forum? I would like a quickshot section if possible. the only issue is forums need lots of server space. also the docs team might want a spot
<daker> space & time
<daker> Admins & moderators
<ubuntujenkins> well i would happly help where i can. the mailing list does not get much traffic to be fair
<daker> we can discuss about it on the next meeting so everyone can give his opinion
<ubuntujenkins> or her :P
<ubuntujenkins> what about asking the current forums people if we can have a part?
<c7p> why don't we ask canonical to pay for the forum services ? We are documenting its product and also we are going to work on their official documentation page (help.ubuntu.com) (right ?)
<ubuntujenkins> I am not sure canonical would pay we chose to do the project we can't ask them to pay us. I think we would be best keeping the forums in one place and see if we could get a section on the current ones as a documentaion section. manual/docs/learning teams
<c7p> i don't ask to pay us. Canonical provide LoCo teams with CDs if they ask, what I'm saying is to provide us the services :). I don't think a medium forum is big deal, it can be hosted on a canonical's server
<c7p> I have to mention that the forum of our LoCo team is hosted on a server of a university :D
 * ubuntujenkins nods
<c7p> night all
<ubuntujenkins> night c7p
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-24
<Sonsum> I'd like to be an author for the ubuntu manual. I've got TEx Live 2009 all installed but when I try and make Ubuntu-Manual-en.pdf it states that I'm missing en.po
<Sonsum> Anybody know what I did wrong?
<Sonsum> Wow. Nevermind. Got it. Ignore the noobishness.
<thorwil> good morning!
<ubuntujenkins> morning
<thorwil> good morning ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> wow we are quite today :)
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: must have been because i have been out all day and afk :)
<ubuntujenkins> heh, i am afk alot at the moment as well
<nisshh> because of the soccer?
<ubuntujenkins> no just other bits and bobs to do now i am at home
<nisshh> yea, iv been busy working on my python fu and also working on some projects of mine
<nisshh> gonna be exciting over the next few months
<ubuntujenkins> howdy
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: / godbyk-sagan ping
<ubuntujenkins> the channel is a sleep
<shrini> :-)
<flan> A single sleep?
<ubuntujenkins> hello shrini and flan people are awake.
<shrini> hello ubuntujenkins
<ChrisWoollard> I just came across the following link.
<ChrisWoollard> http://ubuntugeek.tradepub.com/free/w_ubun01/
<ChrisWoollard> They are harvesting info to get the download.
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: yep I asked them to add a link to our site a couple of days a go
<ubuntujenkins> wich is not on the bottom of http://www.ubuntugeek.com/download-free-ubuntu-10-04-lucid-lynx-pdf-guide.html
<ubuntujenkins> *which
<ChrisWoollard> Yep. It is a bit cheeky
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know why people feel the need to harvest info for our work. thats two sites that do it now. Shows our work is good i guess
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, ubuntujenkins.
<ubuntujenkins> hey you are alive :P
<ChrisWoollard> Unfortuanatly personal information is valuable
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: what is happening as far as the font for the greek manual
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: yea they ask for address etc
<godbyk-sagan> what's up with the fonts in the greek manual?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: linux libertine gives us 3 errors
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: really?  I thought linux-libertine had full greek support.  do you have the errors handy?
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<ubuntujenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/elerrors numbers 3,4,6 they are the same error
<godbyk-sagan> oh, and it seems that both sites I've seen distributing our manual are forwarding to the same underlying site.  I can only guess they get some referral fees or something out of it.
<ChrisWoollard> :(
<ubuntujenkins> i can't compile here as I get japaniese letters in the evince index pane
<ubuntujenkins> also kevin can you mail me the ubuntu-manual-el.tex file you are using. as are using one that c7p and i have is not the same as the one for builds.ubuntu-manual.org
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: I think #3 may be okay as long as the Greek looks good (especially the placement of accents, etc.).
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: #1 can be safely ignored.  We're not using a bibliography, so no worries.
<godbyk-sagan> #2 we should attend to and make sure the cross-references are correct.
<ubuntujenkins> how is that done just build it again?
<godbyk-sagan> #4 is telling us that there aren't any old-style numbers in italic.  I'm not sure where this occurs, so I'll have to look into it.  If it's printing the regular lining figures instead, it should be okay.
<godbyk-sagan> #5 can be ignored.  it's just latex being snarky.
<ubuntujenkins> ok cool, we are very close with greek
<godbyk-sagan> #6 is the same as #4.
 * ubuntujenkins nods
<godbyk-sagan> and #7 can probably be ignored.
 * ubuntujenkins nods again
<ubuntujenkins> any thoughts on my japanies letters in evince
<godbyk-sagan> Japanese letters in evince? We're working on a Japanese translation already now?
<ubuntujenkins> no i get them in the index for what ever language i compile for
<ubuntujenkins> not sure about english
<godbyk-sagan> really?
<godbyk-sagan> that's quite strange.
<godbyk-sagan> let me give it a shot here.
<godbyk-sagan> (though I don't know if everything's setup on my laptop or not. guess we'll find out.)
<ubuntujenkins> I am using the packages, so I don't know what it is. I need to solve it as it is a bug in them effectivley
<godbyk-sagan> running bzr pull now. could take a while. (my parents' internet connection is slow.)
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: are the indices on the builds.ubuntu-manual.org site okay?
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<godbyk-sagan> if so, it may be a problem with your packaged xindy compared to my tug2009 xindy.
<godbyk-sagan> (didn't you have to jump through some hoops on the xindy stuff.  wasn't xindy not packaged originally?)
<ubuntujenkins>  I am just trying an older version of xindy it is in debian
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: hello
<godbyk-sagan> okay.
<c7p> hey
<c7p> oh godbyk is home :d
<godbyk-sagan> c7p: only for a little bit.
<c7p> nice :P
<godbyk-sagan> I've been swamped at work the past week or two trying to get people up to speed on things before I take off.
<godbyk-sagan> I'll be leaving tomorrow evening for about a week.
<c7p> i know :)
<godbyk-sagan> (Hopefully, I'll return with lots of fun TeX-related things we can make use of.)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: thanks for fitting us in your secdule
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: lol. no problem.
<c7p> how much time do you have now?
<godbyk-sagan> I just got back from running errands today.  I'm hanging out at my parents house for a couple days.
<godbyk-sagan> (So I'm away from work where they can only harass me via IM and email.)
<c7p> :P
<godbyk-sagan> I should be around for a few hours (coming and going a little bit).
<c7p> do you want to chill out or we can arrange some things?
<godbyk-sagan> I can try to help with some things, but I'm on my laptop, so I'm somewhat limited in what I can do.
<godbyk-sagan> (I don't think I have everything set up here.)
<ubuntujenkins> hmm an older version of xindy no help
<c7p> ok
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: here''s the version of xindy I'm running (on my laptop, at least):
<godbyk-sagan> $ xindy --version
<godbyk-sagan> xindy release: unknown
<godbyk-sagan> xindy script version: 1.13
<godbyk-sagan> xindy kernel version: 2.3
<godbyk-sagan> xindy run time engine: x86_64-linux-gnu, version 2.2
<godbyk-sagan> CLISP version 2.48 (2009-07-28) (built on pcl321.mppmu.mpg.de [134.107.3.54])
<godbyk-sagan>     architecture: X86_64
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: this is what i get http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/90026/__________________ubuntu_10_04_012_N7SQXq.png
<ubuntujenkins> this is what i just tried
<ubuntujenkins> xindy release: unknown
<ubuntujenkins> xindy script version: 1.08
<ubuntujenkins> xindy kernel version: 2.3
<ubuntujenkins> xindy run time engine: x86_64-linux-gnu, version 2.2
<ubuntujenkins> CLISP version 2.44 (2008-02-02) (built on excelsior.roeckx.be [83.143.242.5])
<ubuntujenkins>     architecture: X86_64
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: weird.
<godbyk-sagan> so it's the pdf index.
<godbyk-sagan> that's not a xindy thing.
<godbyk-sagan> that'd be from the hyperref package.
<ubuntujenkins> yea sorry, should have explained better
<c7p> godbyk concerning the greek manual I think we are finished
<c7p> have you read a message that I sent you before some days about the todo things ?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: / godbyk-sagan we have two pages to remove from before the index
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: actually topo fixed all these bugs
<godbyk-sagan> c7p: I glanced at it and then flagged it for review later. :)
<c7p> ok :)
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: yeah, there's some odd bug in the \printindex command or somewhere along the way.
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: I had to jump through some hoops to fix it in the final English edition, as I recall.
<ubuntujenkins> yea i recal you saying
<godbyk-sagan> there are other customizations I made to the final English edition that didn't get reincorporated to the translated editions.  (and I didn't want to anger the translators by updating the pot file so late in the game.)
<godbyk-sagan> that's why we have all these little things to do by hand.
<c7p> godbyk-sagan: so is there any material that needs translation for the official release of the translated manual ?
<ubuntujenkins> hmm, godbyk-sagan I have gone back to older packages and no luck on this japanise letters
 * c7p brb 
<godbyk-sagan> I don't recall what extra stuff has already been translated.
<godbyk-sagan> We have the new copyright page text in there?
<godbyk-sagan> And the colophon text.
<godbyk-sagan> I think those are the two big things that I added.
<c7p> godbyk-sagan: yes have translated these stuff
<ubuntujenkins> any suggestions on the letter problem
<ubuntujenkins> *other
<c7p> have you installed the latest version of xindy ?
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: not yet. It seems like it may have to do with either the fonts or with hyperref.
<ubuntujenkins> yea i am thinking fonts i am trying to guess at what to install rather than the whole texlive-full and blowing th edownload limit at home
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: try a different font for your UI stuff.
<ubuntujenkins> surely that will make no diffence if the builds.ubuntu...org ones work?
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: ah, good point.
<ubuntujenkins> I am trying texlive-fonts-extra
<godbyk-sagan> I don't expect that's have an effect, since we're not using the tex fonts.
<ubuntujenkins> hmm
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: I just built it on my laptop and the bookmarks look okay.
<ubuntujenkins> are you using the packages or source?
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins, c7p: another thing we have to translate [for all translations]: the word 'Colophon' (as it appears in the bookmarks list).
<godbyk-sagan> [I think there's another couple bookmarks I added to the final English addition. I'm gonna check as soon as I get the code checked out on my laptop.]
<ubuntujenkins> also license its the only thing that is still ok in mine
<ubuntujenkins> the word "license"
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: where do you see that?
<ubuntujenkins> don't worry i think that may be done. I messed up and lost the *el.tex file. i did make clean
<godbyk-sagan> okay, I'm feeling like an idiot.  do you see the lucid-e1-en branch (or lucid-1e-en.. however I spelled it)?
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: ah, right. just run 'bzr revert ubuntu-manual-el.tex' to get it back.
<godbyk-sagan> brb
<ubuntujenkins> I have the file in an e-mail as c7p sent me a newer one
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: can you run me a list of what packages you have installed which start with ttf please
<ubuntujenkins> don't worry its not a font as the others look ok
<godbyk-sagan> back now
<c7p> godbyk-sagan: should i mail you the translation of the word "Colophon" or should I tell it to you here on channel ?
<godbyk-sagan> c7p: Email it to me. (Just to ensure irc doesn't mangle it.)
<dutchie> irc is awesome at unicode
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: fair enough. but is xchat? or my xchat font?
<godbyk-sagan> :)
<dutchie> Ã¸nÅy 1 wÃ¦y Å§Ã¸ finÃ° Ã¸ÃºÅ§
<godbyk-sagan> Heh.. now see, that makes no sense. ;-)
<dutchie> wfm in irssi
<godbyk-sagan> It works here, too.
<dutchie> Å§âÃ¾ânÅ ÅâÅ§Ä§ Å§Ä§e Â¢Ã¸ÂµÃ¾Ã¸Ãe Ä¸eâ Ä§eÅÃ° Ã°Ã¸Ån ÅÃ¸Ã¸Ä¸Ã Ã¦ÅeÃÃ¸Âµe
<dutchie> ââÅ§ ânÂ¶eÃ¦Ã°Ã¦âÅe
<godbyk-sagan> nice!
<c7p> lol it's greek to me hahaha
<dutchie> haha
<ubuntujenkins> I see a mess of letters
<c7p> so do I, dutchie how did you managed to type these characters ?
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: which key have you set as the compse key?
<dutchie> alt-gr
<godbyk-sagan> That might work, I don't think I ever use that key.  Or maybe the Windows context menu key or something. That definitely never gets used.
<ubuntujenkins> what is that key for? I ahve never ever used it
<c7p> well i can't find it on keyboard !
<godbyk-sagan> which one? the windows context menu key? it pulls up the right-click menu for whatever thing has focus.  (on windows at least.)
<dutchie> the windows key is used for shortcuts (and is generally called "super")
<dutchie> try super+a for example
<c7p> ah we call it with other name :P
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: am i using the script you gave c7p to compile it or am i using make *el.tex
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: you *should* be able to use make blah-el.pdf
<godbyk-sagan> the compile script is obsolete now and shouldn't be used.
<ubuntujenkins> I feel I am asking idiotic questions but I am getting "make: `ubuntu-manual-el.tex' is up to date." what do i remove to make it run again?
<ubuntujenkins> doing make *el.tex
<godbyk-sagan> pdf not tex
<ubuntujenkins> Its late :)
<godbyk-sagan> excuses, excuses!
<c7p> that's exactly what I thought :P ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> I have to get up early tomorrow :/
<c7p> haven't you finished the exams?
<ubuntujenkins> yea, I have some stuff for my job
<ubuntujenkins> you have to love the crossover guys, I am not even a paying customer i a just trialing and they are letting me test a nighly build. Their service is great
<ubuntujenkins> they have be very helpfull with my problems
<godbyk-sagan> Found it! https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-1e-en
<godbyk-sagan> I'm not crazy after all!
<dutchie> night all
<c7p> g' night dutchie
<godbyk-sagan> Launchpad was filtering the list of branches (and only showing the active branches).
<godbyk-sagan> G'night, dutchie.
<ubuntujenkins> night dutchie
<godbyk-sagan> Cool. What're you using crossover for, ubuntujenkins?
 * ubuntujenkins wispers office 2007 and macros
<ubuntujenkins> I have office due to uni
<ubuntujenkins> and there is a cool excel thing that i have found
<godbyk-sagan> oh?
<ubuntujenkins> I am a scout leader and there is a very good spread sheet to help with organising. Cross over apears to be the best way to save rebooting
<godbyk-sagan> Aha.
<godbyk-sagan> I just run Office under Windows under Virtualbox OSE.
<ubuntujenkins> they are the only place that supports macros but it takes, 90 mins to load the spread sheet this nigthly takes 2-3 aparently
<godbyk-sagan> (I had to purchase a copy of Office the other day because we have to use some Word doc forms for uni and OOo wasn't saving them very well.)
<godbyk-sagan> nice!
<ubuntujenkins> my laptop would die doing that. virtual box
<godbyk-sagan> yeah, it's pretty resource intensive.
<ubuntujenkins> I e-mailed them and he said it does open honest it takes 10+ minutes though.
<godbyk-sagan> I only use it on my new PC (which has lots of CPU cores and processors).
<ubuntujenkins> my laptop will do linux boxes in vm but its not a fan of lots of installs in a row
<c7p> g' night guys and kevin have a nice time at the latex evening :)
<godbyk-sagan> c7p: thanks!  see ya later.
<ubuntujenkins> wow it did load faster but the macros do not work :( "out of memory"
<godbyk-sagan> ah, bummer.
<godbyk-sagan> time to upgrade. :)
<ubuntujenkins> I wish I have to buy loads of stuff before i start my job
<godbyk-sagan> where's your job again? (I think you told me before.)
<dutchie> i'm not very good at going to bed
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: I do that all the time
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: Me neither (among so very many other things).
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: enginerring student at cummins
<ubuntujenkins> big engines
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: ah, cool.
<dutchie> beats my prospective job at carphone warehouse
<dutchie> stupid android and it's long "Starting download" time
<dutchie> er, its
<dutchie> stuff it, bedtime
<dutchie> actually this time
<godbyk-sagan> are they ever going to release froyo?
<ubuntujenkins> I thought it was out? I am sure fab was on about it on linux outlaws
<godbyk-sagan> well, I think people have been downloading an unofficial version.
<godbyk-sagan> but they haven't pushed the update over the air yet.
<ubuntujenkins> i see, you and your nexus one :)
<godbyk-sagan> yep! :)
<godbyk-sagan> btw, if anyone has any good recommendations for a linux-based tablet or an awesome (open) ebook reader, let me know.
<godbyk-sagan> I bought a netbook/tablet the other day, but have to send it back as the battery won't recharge.
<ubuntujenkins> get a wee tab, when they come out
<ubuntujenkins> we-tab actually
<godbyk-sagan> when are they due out?
<ubuntujenkins> ages :(
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-25
<godbyk-sagan> rats
<ubuntujenkins> 19. September 2010 on amazon.de
<ubuntujenkins> http://www.amazon.de/WeTab-Zoll-Tablet-PC-Bluetooth-Wi-Fi/dp/B003JFKUWQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de&qid=1277420418&sr=8-1
<ubuntujenkins> I just want to put une on it
<godbyk-sagan> cool.
<godbyk-sagan> the notion ink tablet also looks neat, but isn't due out until Q3 or so.
<ubuntujenkins> is that the one with the strange screen not lcd?
<godbyk-sagan> yeah.
<godbyk-sagan> has the dual-mode screen.. the Pixel Qi tech.
<godbyk-sagan> kind of an lcd + e-ink thing.
<ubuntujenkins> that will be interesting to see
<godbyk-sagan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NotK4TVQ-6E&feature=player_embedded#
<godbyk-sagan> that video isn't of the tablet, but shows the pixel qi technology.
<ubuntujenkins> thats cool technology
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk-sagan good night and have a good confernce if i don't chat to you before
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<zkriesse> any one here?
<zkriesse> Awake i mean
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, zkriesse, what's up?
<zkriesse> Trying to install TeX Live from source cause I wanna help out with you guys
<zkriesse>  I'm to the part to Enable create symlinks to standard directories
<godbyk-sagan> Okay.
<zkriesse> And when i try to enable it I'm confused as to what to put for the value for binary directory usr/local/bin
<godbyk-sagan> You should be okay if you just accept the defaults (i.e., just hit Enter for each of them).
<zkriesse> oh leave 'em blank?
<zkriesse> Terminal will take that?
<godbyk-sagan> Yep.
<zkriesse> Ok gimme a sec
<godbyk-sagan> When you leave them blank, it will use the default value (what's in brackets).
<zkriesse> Its enabled now apparently
<zkriesse> X in the box
<godbyk-sagan> 'kay.
<zkriesse> now it's at the Enter Command
<godbyk-sagan> If you've set the paper size and any other options to what you want, you should be good to go.  Just hit 'I' and Enter to start installing.
<zkriesse> it's not installing
<zkriesse> I enter "i" and hit enter and it just goes back to blank
<godbyk-sagan> To blank?  I'm not sure I understand.
<godbyk-sagan> It should start downloading files.
<zkriesse> Figured it out
<godbyk-sagan> 'kay.
<zkriesse> I was in the options menu trying to install
<zkriesse> lol
<godbyk-sagan> Aha.
 * zkriesse is goofy
<godbyk-sagan> The installer program can be a bit confusing and hard to use.
<zkriesse> kinda helps if i hit R to go back to the main menu don'tcha think?
<zkriesse> In your opinion is it better to use letter size or A4
<godbyk-sagan> I would set the default to whatever you regularly use.
<zkriesse> I've never used this program before
<godbyk-sagan> When we create the manual, we specify it on a per-language basis.  So either option will work okay.
<zkriesse> ok
 * zkriesse is just now trying to start out
<godbyk-sagan> Cool.
<zkriesse> with the manual project anyway
<godbyk-sagan> Well, we're glad for your help.
<zkriesse> I'm in several teams
<zkriesse> Beginners Team mainly
<zkriesse> and pleia2 recruited me for user days
<zkriesse> So I figured I'd check this out too
<zkriesse> want my wiki page link for anything?
<godbyk-sagan> I think they're redesigning our website, so we may use links to people's wiki pages then.  At the moment, it's just a plain text list.
<zkriesse> k
<zkriesse> More or less I meant for personal looking :D
<godbyk-sagan> Oh, in that case, sure! Fire away. :)
<zkriesse> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/zkriesse
<zkriesse> dang it
<zkriesse> just realized i gotta upload a new ssh key
<zkriesse> cause i re-installed the other day
<godbyk-sagan> Yeah, I had to do that a couple times recently, too.
<zkriesse> I take it you're Kevin Godby?
<godbyk-sagan> Yep, that's me.
<zkriesse> cool
<godbyk-sagan> Am I that notorious? :)
 * zkriesse is Zach Kriesse
<godbyk-sagan> It's nice to make your acquaintance.
<zkriesse> no just i noticed your nick started out with godby and there is only one godby on the manual page so...
<zkriesse> Likewise
<godbyk-sagan> Aha.
<zkriesse> aha what?
<zkriesse> what's aha
<godbyk-sagan> RE: noticing my nick, etc.
<godbyk-sagan> "Aha" = "I see." / "I understand." / "Gotcha."
<zkriesse> oh i thought maybe you saw something on my wiki page
<godbyk-sagan> Ah, I haven't read it yet.  Finishing up another article first.
<zkriesse> cool
<zkriesse> uber cool
<godbyk-sagan> Wow. You have a lot of stuff on your wiki page.  Mine's pretty sparse: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinGodby
<zkriesse> well i dont' have a PhD
<zkriesse> so ya got me beat there
<godbyk-sagan> Heh, well, neither do I yet. :)
<godbyk-sagan> It's a work-in-progress.
<zkriesse> lol
 * zkriesse is trying to join the Army Combat Medic
<zkriesse> well i have to go
<godbyk-sagan> Cool.
<zkriesse> gotta watch my bro for a bit
<godbyk-sagan> Okay. It was nice to meet you.  See you later.
<zkriesse> nice to meet you, thanks for the help
 * zkriesse out
<zkriesse> godbyk: ah how long should this program take to install?
<zkriesse> 01:10:03/03:49:06]
<zkriesse> that's what i'm looking at...does it mean three hours left?
<humphreybc> godbyk, A person called James is going to come in here at some point and ask you how many copies of the printed book we've sold. Could you please tell him for me?
<JamesMR> that would be me!
<humphreybc> There we go
<humphreybc> now you guys have fun chatting
<humphreybc> I am off
<JamesMR> godbyk: how many copies of the printed book were sold?
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: It'll take three hours to finish downloading, by its estimate.
<godbyk-sagan> Nearly four hours.
<zkriesse> damnit
<godbyk-sagan> JamesMR: Good question.  Let me look.
<zkriesse> My internet goes off at midnight and it's already 11
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: It *should* pick up where it left off if you have to cancel the install and restart it later.
<zkriesse> godbyk-sagan: any want I can pause it or will i cause an issue if i shut it off and restart it in the morning
<zkriesse> ok thanks
<zkriesse> just outa question what timezone are you in?
<godbyk-sagan> JamesMR: I don't have precise numbers, because lulu.com doesn't give those out for free books.  But it looks to be about 90 copies.
<JamesMR> of the hard copy?
<godbyk-sagan> I'm trying to see if that includes downloads via lulu.com.  One moment.
<godbyk-sagan> Aha! I found more details.
<JamesMR> 8-)
<godbyk-sagan> 93 copies of the print book.  282 downloads (via lulu.com).
<zkriesse> godbyk-sagan: i edited your wiki page a bit...
<JamesMR> cool :)
<JamesMR> nice numbers
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: Okay.  I'll take a look at it.
<godbyk-sagan> JamesMR: Yeah, I'm rather impressed with them.  Full disclosure: one of those 93 is my copy. :)
<brandonj> Is e2 still supposed to be released on tuesday?
<JamesMR> hehe
<godbyk-sagan> JamesMR: And 92 of them are the copies my mom bought.  (Just kidding!)
<JamesMR> (rofl)
<JamesMR> I plan to buy a copy at some point
<godbyk-sagan> brandonj: Tuesday?
<JamesMR> however I recently spent all my savings on web hosting
<brandonj> I thought thats what the date was
<godbyk-sagan> brandonj: Hmm.. let me check, I thought it was toward the end of July.
<godbyk-sagan> In any case, I don't think it'll be released this coming Tuesday as I won't be around much.
<godbyk-sagan> I'm leaving tomorrow evening for a TeX conference in San Francisco.
<brandonj> haha ok
<godbyk-sagan> JamesMR: No worries. :)
<godbyk-sagan> brandonj: 29 July is the release date for the second edition.
<brandonj> oh, I was thinking 29 June for some reason I guess
<brandonj> thanks
<godbyk-sagan> brandonj: No problem.
<zkriesse> ok i'm out for the night
<godbyk-sagan> See you later, zkriesse.
<zkriesse> bye
<godbyk-sagan> JamesMR: It appears there have been 105,229 downloads of the on-screen version of our manual from our site.  And an additional 6,214 downloads of the optimized-for-printing version.
<godbyk-sagan> Others may have downloaded the manual from mirrors or other sites. I can't account for those downloads, however.
<JamesMR> godbyk-sagan: that's impressive
<godbyk-sagan> Yeah, it's been quite a while since I looked at the numbers.
<brandonj> I'm tempted to download a copy to make that an even number
<godbyk-sagan> brandonj: The number is 105,241 now.
<brandonj> well I guess I'll never have my way then
<godbyk-sagan> You could download it 9 times and bump it up to ..50, though. :)
<brandonj> that would be a good way to procrastinate studying for my GRE
<godbyk-sagan> It's at 243 now
<godbyk-sagan> 244
<godbyk-sagan> 244
<brandonj> thats a respectable rate
<topog> and counting...
<topog> morning all
<godbyk-sagan> morning, topog
<topog> hey, godbyk, i was told that we had some progress on the greek version of the manual
<godbyk-sagan> topog: I think so.
<topog> i checked a few latex things
<godbyk-sagan> topog: I've got a couple little translation things to code up.  I need to create the half-title page sometime and write the code to include it.
<godbyk-sagan> topog: There's still some bug wherein the index/contents in evince (the sidebar) aren't displaying correctly for ubuntujenkins.
<godbyk-sagan> We want to make sure it only his machine and not the PDFs themselves that are the problem.
<topog> i see
<godbyk-sagan> brandonj: 245
<topog> i corrected a few glossary entries that link to wrong page by hand
<godbyk-sagan> topog: Yeah, I need to figure out what's going on there.
<godbyk-sagan> Also, c7p mentioned that index entries were pointing to the wrong pages, too.
<topog> i wonder why the link is not correct in the first place
<godbyk-sagan> Well, I know what the common reason is, but I don't know if it applies in this case yet. (Haven't had time to investigate.)
<godbyk-sagan> The way the cross-referencing works is:
<godbyk-sagan> 1. you run xelatex to generate the first draft of the pdf. along the way, xelatex generates a .aux file (among other files) that contains lists of cross-references.
<godbyk-sagan> so on this first run-through, there are no cross-reference page numbers in the pdf, because it hasn't generated the list of cross-references yet.
<godbyk-sagan> in this case, you'll see ?? instead of the page numbers (or chapter names, etc.).
<topog> well, actually the index entries are wong on your builds @ builds.u-m.org . building with make has no problem
<godbyk-sagan> 2. on the second run, xelatex reads the .aux files (and others) to update the page numbers.
<godbyk-sagan> sometimes, though updating the page numbers (and chapter names) causes text to get moved around. occasionally, this causes text to get pushed to another page.  which means the following page numbers are no longer valid.
<godbyk-sagan> this occurs when we generate the glossary and index, too.
<godbyk-sagan> when we pull in the generated glossary text, it adds a few pages. this means that cross references to those later pages may be incorrect.
<godbyk-sagan> so basically we just have to keep regenerating the glossary, index, and pdf until it all settles down.
<topog> thats what i thought too
<godbyk-sagan> (sadly, there are some edge cases where it will never settle down. but I hope we never encounter those.)
<topog> so, i run xelatex by hand
<topog> corrected the glo and gls files
<godbyk-sagan> if it's working okay with the makefile but not the builds stuff, then i may need to look at my build script to ensure it's running things in the same manner as the makefile.
<topog> and build the pdf
<godbyk-sagan> yeah. that's a huge pain.
<godbyk-sagan> especially when it comes to the index. :)
<topog> i think its probably your build script because all the indexes on build-u-m.org are incorrect, but with make evereything is ooook
<godbyk-sagan> okay, that's good to know.
<godbyk-sagan> when I get back from this conference, i'll have a look at the build script and see what's up.
<godbyk-sagan> (I don't have a copy of it on my laptop at the moment, or I'd look into it now.)
<topog> there is no rush :P
<topog> just latex talking
<godbyk-sagan> :)
<godbyk-sagan> does the glossary work okay with the makefile, too?
<topog> yes, exept 4-5 bugs that c7p tracked down, probably because of reasons you mention before
<topog> i corrected them by hand
<godbyk-sagan> okay.
<godbyk-sagan> if I can't find a way to resolve those automatically, I'll just modify the glossary style and tell it not to print page numbers.
<topog> may be a good solution
<godbyk-sagan> While I wouldn't mind editing one translation's glossary by hand, I'm certainly not interested in doing more than that. :)
<topog> well, thats why we have translation editors :P
<godbyk-sagan> Heh. Yeah, but they might all quit if I forced them to edit glossaries by hand. :-)
<topog> well, there may be an optional requirement on the list of a translations editing.. :P
<godbyk-sagan> true. :)
<godbyk-sagan> Well, I'm going to go to bed. I have to get up tomorrow and pack for my trip.
<topog> bye godbyk
<godbyk-sagan> See ya later.
<thorwil> godbyk: thanks for the nice statistics!
<nisshh> thorwil: oh, is the stats page on the website working again?
<thorwil> nisshh: don'T know, was referring to mail on the list
<nisshh> oh, ok
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> i got over excited :)
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<thorwil> morning!
<ubuntujenkins> bye
<c7p> hey guys
<c7p> when you say tittle page you mean the very first page of a book ? for example http://humphreybc.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/downloads.png
<zkriesse> godbyk-sagan:
<zkriesse> godbyk: ping
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, zkriesse. What's up?
<zkriesse> godbyk-sagan: well  I think i got everything working...just wanted to ask, one how do i compile the manual to make sure it's "all good" and two, how do i file bugs?
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: To compile the English version of the manual, you can just run 'make'.  It'll generate main.pdf.
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> run make where?
<zkriesse> I see the make button on top of the folder is that it?
<godbyk-sagan> Okay, yeah, if you're using Ground Control, the make button should work.
<zkriesse> I see Make Clean Make Translated PDF Make PDF and Update to Latest
<godbyk-sagan> Otherwise, open a terminal, 'cd' into the directory containing the ubuntu manual branch and type 'make'.
<godbyk-sagan> 'Make PDF' should do the trick.
<godbyk-sagan> And you can file bugs at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/.
<zkriesse> getting a lot of Latex Warning Marginpar removed
<zkriesse> what is that
<zkriesse> ok it popped up with the manual
<zkriesse> all nice and pretty
<zkriesse> Also an issue I have is when I try to click the "Update to Latest" it fails to get a lock on ///home/zach/something
<zkriesse> and i get this error when i make the pdf
<zkriesse> Package bibentry Warning: You have used \nobibliography*
<zkriesse> (bibentry)                without a following \bibliography.
<zkriesse> (bibentry)                You may not be able to run BibTeX.
<godbyk-sagan> the marginpar warnings and the nobibliography warning can be ignored.
<zkriesse> ok
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: Have you ran the install-pkgs.sh script yet?
<zkriesse> yes
<godbyk-sagan> okay, good.
<godbyk-sagan> you should be set then.
<zkriesse> i went through and manually installed all the packages that weren't installed
<vish> hmm , anyone knows which compresses better? tar.lzma / tar.gz  ?
<zkriesse> tar.gz i think
<zkriesse> might be wrong though
<vish> hmm..
 * vish tries all :D
<zkriesse> godbyk-sagan: Run command: bzr update
<zkriesse> Unable to obtain lock file:///home/zach/Projects/ubuntu-manual/.bzr/checkout/lock
<zkriesse> held by zach.kleinhenz@gmail.com on host zach-desktop [process #1410]
<zkriesse> locked 4 hours, 53 minutes ago
<zkriesse> Will continue to try until 14:15:21, unless you press Ctrl-C.
<zkriesse> See "bzr help break-lock" for more.
<zkriesse> that's what i get when i try to update it
<vish> zkriesse: bzr has quit in the middle of a bzr action
<vish> thats why you are getting that error
<zkriesse> ok can i fix it?
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: Open a terminal and run 'bzr break-lock PATH' (where PATH is the path it gave you).
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> file:///home/zach/Projects/ubuntu-manual/.bzr/checkout/lock
<zkriesse> that it?
<vish> yup
 * vish  remembers freaking out the first time i saw the error :)
<godbyk-sagan> if that path doesn't work, try /home/zach/Projects/ubuntu-manual instead
<zkriesse> Ok now it said, "Tree up to date!"
<zkriesse> thanks vish
<vish> np.
<godbyk-sagan> vish: When I first got the error, it was a server lock.  I was scared i'd break something big-time!
<zkriesse> That's what i thought i'd done....
<zkriesse> I was scared to do anything nonetheless
<zkriesse> So if i change stuff can i just push it up to lp?
<zkriesse> Or do i have to show my revision to somebody
<vish> you have to push to show it too
<zkriesse> meaning?
<vish> zkriesse: you have to push the rev to bzr so others cant see it
<vish> they have to pull and check
<zkriesse> oh ok
<zkriesse> cool
<vish> err ,that was can*
<zkriesse> So I can just push....no need to ask first
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: A question: which branch did you download?
<vish> zkriesse: nope.. just make sure to check what files you have changed
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: if you're unsure, run 'bzr info' from /home/zach/Projects/ubuntu-manual to find out.
<godbyk-sagan> if it's lucid-e1, you're not allowed to touch anything. :)
<vish> zkriesse: also , make sure to do a "bzr status" before a push  ,
<zkriesse> through terminal right
<vish> yup
<zkriesse> cd to /home/zach blahah
<godbyk-sagan> yeah
<godbyk-sagan> then run 'bzr info'
<vish> ooh , bzr info,  /me tries
<zkriesse> Standalone tree (format: 2a)
<zkriesse> Location:
<zkriesse>   branch root: .
<zkriesse> Related branches:
<zkriesse>   parent branch: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/
<zkriesse>   submit branch: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/
<zkriesse> zach@zach-desktop:~/Projects/ubuntu-manual$
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: Okay, great! You should be fine then.
<vish> zkriesse: if you want to do it the GUI way , you can install Olive branch manager / bazaar explorer
<zkriesse> vish why bzr status? what does that do?
<godbyk-sagan> bzr status tells you which files you've modified.
<vish> zkriesse: "bzr status" is to check what files you have changed
<zkriesse> oh ok
<zkriesse> lol
<vish> :)
<zkriesse> two at one!
<zkriesse> vish is leading by one, godbyk close behind
<zkriesse> Oop godbyk is pulling ahead and there he goes!
<godbyk-sagan> :)
<vish> zkriesse: there are 3clones of him , tough to beat ;)
<zkriesse> Yes I've got Bazaar Explorer and Olvie branch
<vish> you can use either , depends on which you prefer
<brandonj> afternoon everyone
<zkriesse> hi brandonj !
<zkriesse> ok godbyk-sagan  vish is there anything else I need to know/run off the getgo or shall I just start fixing
<zkriesse> Oooh...filing bugs
<zkriesse> Is that for major stuff?
<vish> zkriesse: oh and probably use a sensible commit message ;)
<godbyk-sagan> sensible commit messages are good.
<godbyk-sagan> always pull the branch before you commit and push.
<godbyk-sagan> there was an email a while back that outlined the process.
<godbyk-sagan> i'll see if i can find it.
<vish> yeah , thats a bummer when you get a bzr diverged :/
<brandonj> I have it saved
<vish> godbyk-sagan: but it was easy to merge with the GUI [explorer/olive] , when they diverged and stuff
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: This thread should help: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01904.html
<godbyk-sagan> vish: Oh yeah? I've never used explorer or olive.
<godbyk-sagan> I've always just used the command line, I guess.
<brandonj> when you do bzr commit, if you've done a bug fix you can do bzr commit --fixes=lp:######
<godbyk-sagan> I prefer to avoid merging, though, as it frightens and confuses me. ;-)
<vish> godbyk-sagan: yeah, thats what i like about them , it is damn simple for merging , they have a button and it does it all!
<godbyk-sagan> brandonj: Ah, yes. That's a good point.  I think someone raised it later in that email thread.
<vish> isnt it  "--fixes lp:######"
<vish> i hadnt used "="
<godbyk-sagan> vish: When it does the merge, does it incorporate the changes you're overriding and email me a scary message about multiple commits being lost or whatever it says?
<brandonj> vish: I think I've usded the '='.  Maybe it doesn't matter.
<godbyk-sagan> In 'bzr help commit' it shows the =.  But in 'bzr help bugs' it doesn't show the =.
<vish> godbyk-sagan: yeah , it usually merges or allows to revert the changes
<zkriesse> what'd i miss
<zkriesse> helping a new guy with wiki editing
<vish> hmm , tar.xz
<zkriesse> Ok so filing a bug...
<godbyk-sagan> To file a bug, just hit up https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/.
<zkriesse> Ok I can do that or I can just fix it right?
<zkriesse> Sorry if I'm being annoying
<godbyk-sagan> You can file a bug if you like, or if it's something you think you can fix yourself, feel free to dive in.
<zkriesse> Like right now I'm trying to commit but what do i put for the "Fixed Bug" number or ID?
<zkriesse> what is that?
<brandonj> every bug on launchpad has a unique number
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> so unless you're fixing a bug from launchpad, don't use that option
<zkriesse> Oh ok
<zkriesse> I'm using Bazaar Explorer brandonj if that helps :D
<brandonj> I've never used it
<godbyk-sagan> I'll be back in a bit, guys.  I need to go pack some clothes.
<brandonj> but if you go to the launchpad page, and look at the list of bugs, the id numbers should be pretty aparent
<zkriesse> Yeah ok
<zkriesse> I gotcha
<zkriesse> Now where it says "Branch" "/home/zach/Projects/ubuntu-manual" that is fine right?
<zkriesse> It's stating the project
<brandonj> i think thats fine
<zkriesse> Ok i pushed it up there!
<zkriesse> YAY! My first one!
<vish> oh oh
<vish> so lzma has the best compression ..
<zkriesse> OK. I've gotta go for a bit...thanks for the help vish and info and you too brandonj
 * zkriesse out
<vish> np.
<c7p> what's hyphenation?
<godbyk-sagan> c7p: Hyphenation is where you break a single word across two lines.
<dutchie> put-ting hy-phens in words
<topog> o syllavismos
<c7p> thx kevin
<c7p> thx all :p
<godbyk-sagan> I board the train in two hours.  Yay!
<godbyk-sagan> I'll have to drive to the station sometime soon.
<c7p> :p great
<dutchie> where are you going?
<godbyk-sagan> I'm going to San Francisco for a TeX conference: http://tug.org/tug2010/
<dutchie> that's quite a trip from IA
<dutchie> (i think)
<godbyk-sagan> It's a two-day train trip there.  (The train system in the US is pretty lame.)
<dutchie> i have about as much knowledge of US geography as you probably do of English :)
<c7p> How can I submit a file on the brunch (actually update it)?
<dutchie> c7p: on the command line or with ground control?
<godbyk-sagan> What's to know about English geography?  You're a tiny little island off the coast of Europe? <evil grin>
<dutchie> england isn't an island :)
<c7p> dutchie: whatever
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: You're right. It's less than half an island.
<dutchie> c7p: bzr add <file>; bzr commit -m"Helpful message"; bzr push
<godbyk-sagan> c7p: Run 'bzr status' first to make sure it only shows the files you meant to modify.
<c7p> thank you
<dutchie> ah yes
<dutchie> that was me thinking bzr == git again
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: anyway, if I said i was going from worcester to birmingham on the train tomorrow, do you think it would be a long trip?
<godbyk-sagan> Nope.
<dutchie> impressive :)
<godbyk-sagan> Though your definition of 'long' is quite different than mine, frankly.
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk-sagan> I can drive across your country in less than a day.  <shrug>
<dutchie> "long" here is > ~150 miles
<godbyk-sagan> So no amount of traveling from one place in England to another place in England is 'long' for me.
<brandonj> hah 150 miles
<brandonj> weak
<brandonj> =P
<dutchie> brandonj: another usanian?
<brandonj> yes
<dutchie> actually, probably less than that
<dutchie> birmingham -> london is probably about the limit of a "short" hop
<brandonj> trains here do suck though
<godbyk-sagan> Right. To go from my house in Ames, Iowa, to my parents' house in Moravia, Iowa, it was a two-hour drive.  The distance was a bit over 100 miles.
<godbyk-sagan> That distance covered about half the vertical height of the state.
<godbyk-sagan> (Just to give you some sense of scale.)
<brandonj> http://www.ericlindsay.com/relaxa.con/oz-us-uk-map.gif
<dutchie> indeed
<dutchie> your country is irresponsibly big
<brandonj> and that isn't even including alaska ;)
<godbyk-sagan> :)
<brandonj> alaska is absolutely gigantic
<godbyk-sagan> Alaska is huge.
<brandonj> ah-hah
<brandonj> http://www.alaskajohn.com/maps/USA_Alaska_Europe_Large.jpg
<brandonj> infographics!
<godbyk-sagan> nice!
<godbyk-sagan> On that map, Iowa is in the middle (just to the right of the overlaid Alaska).
<godbyk-sagan> I'm leaving from about 3/4 the way to the eastern border of Iowa.
<godbyk-sagan> Headed to San Francisco, which is on the fat west coast of the US, about midway down the California coastline.
<brandonj> scared of flying?
<brandonj> ;)
<dutchie> i do know where SF is at least
<dutchie> i have family over that way
<godbyk-sagan> To put it another way, dutchie, my state (Iowa) is bigger than your country. :-P
<zkriesse> godbyk-sagan: You're just a little bit away from me. Illinois here
<godbyk-sagan> zkriesse: Cool.
<brandonj> Whats it like to live in the middle of the country?
<godbyk-sagan> Lately, it's been incredibly hot, humid, and rainy.
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: i bet we've got more people though
<zkriesse> godbyk-sagan: Same here dude
<godbyk-sagan> Time to head out!
<godbyk-sagan> I'll see you guys later!
<brandonj> enjoy your trip
<godbyk-sagan> Thanks.
<dutchie> ah, that's why everything was running slowly
<dutchie> $ free -m total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
<dutchie> Mem:           993        978         15          0         11        534
<dutchie> -/+ buffers/cache:        432        561
<dutchie> Swap:          682        682          0
<dutchie> that pasted badly, but you get the idea
<brandonj> yeah, that slow you down a bit
<brandonj> that'd*
 * dutchie remembers to add his swapfile to /etc/fstab
<c7p> bzr: ERROR: Could not acquire lock "/home/cep/Projects/lucid-e1/.bzr/checkout/dirstate": [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable
<c7p> what's that? (I get it after running 'bzr status')
<dutchie> godbyk: as I thought. Iowa, population 3million, density 35/sq mi. UK, population 62million, density 659/sq mi.
<dutchie> c7p: it doesn't look good, whatever it is
<dutchie> i'd ask the nice folks in
<dutchie> #bzr
<c7p> thx
<c7p> maybe it's because I'm running ground control
<c7p> brb
<c7p> dutchie: problem solved
<dutchie> c7p: great :)
<c7p> g' night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-26
<zkriesse> hello nisshh
<nisshh> zkriesse: hey
<zkriesse> nisshh: and how are you this fine day/afternoon/evening
<nisshh> zkriesse: really good actually, im planning on playing some urban terror then im going out and then ill be writing some code
<nisshh> zkriesse: how about you?
<zkriesse> eh editing some manual stuff, trying to move my knee as little as possible
<zkriesse> I'm Zach btw...new 'round the manual team
<nisshh> zkriesse: right, didnt think id seen you in here before
<zkriesse> just popped in the other night
<nisshh> zkriesse: im Ryan, iv been working on the manual since the start
<zkriesse> Well nice to meet ya's
<nisshh> you too
<nisshh> :)
<zkriesse> Fortunately I know a few of ya's on the project
<zkriesse> cjohnston: for one
<nisshh> yea
<zkriesse> and pleia2
<zkriesse> I work with her on the Learning/Classroom stuff
<nisshh> oh cool
<zkriesse> I think so anyway
<nisshh> its like 3 teams in one now, huh?
<zkriesse> Least she asked me to do a User Day course so....
<nisshh> meh
<zkriesse> Sad part is I had the outline for my "speech" all written up, switched back to my 'buntu after a windows period and forgot to save the darn file
<zkriesse> so now i gotta start over
<nisshh> zkriesse: oh, that happens i guess, i dont even use windows anymore
<nisshh> never needed it
<zkriesse> I was for a while
<nisshh> zkriesse: yea, doing stuff like that was what taught me the importance of backups
<zkriesse> he
<zkriesse> vish: ya round?
<zkriesse> nisshh: how bout u
<nisshh> zkriesse: whats that?
<nisshh> sorry i was busy
<zkriesse> nisshh: ok fixing a manual bug
<zkriesse> I'm using Bazaar Explorer
<zkriesse> To commit the bug fix what do i put in the "Bug" field
<nisshh> zkriesse: oh, i have no idea, iv never used BE
<zkriesse> ok what about the terminal
<nisshh> zkriesse: oh thats easy
<zkriesse> I'm typing in bzr commit but now i don't know what to type
<nisshh> zkriesse: bzr commit -m "Fixed bug LP:<bug number from launchpad goes here>
<nisshh> zkriesse: bzr commit -m "Fixed bug LP:<bug number from launchpad goes here>"
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> also you can add the --fixes option
<zkriesse> lemme try that
<nisshh> brandonj: good point
<brandonj> bzr commit --fixes=lp:<bug #> -m "Fixed bug lp:<bug #>"
<nisshh> yea thats it
<zkriesse> bzr commit --fixes=lp:<bug #596853> -m "Fixed bug lp:<bug "596853>" that look right?
<brandonj> no no
<brandonj> haha
<brandonj> no <'s or >'s
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> and don't put
<brandonj> bug #596853
<brandonj> just do
<brandonj> bzr commit --fixes=lp:596853 -m "Fixed bug lp:596853"
<brandonj> sorry for the confusion
<zkriesse> Ok i did that...now how will i know it's fixed?
<brandonj> did you push it?
<zkriesse> yes
<brandonj> it should show up here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2
<brandonj> are you sure you did `bzr push`?
<zkriesse> I think so
<brandonj> ok
<zkriesse> wait....
<zkriesse> nope i did the commit part
<brandonj> right
<zkriesse> now i need to do bzr push
<brandonj> so after you commit you need to push
<zkriesse> Using saved push location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/
<zkriesse> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/.bzr/branch/lock): Transport operation not possible: http does not support mkdir()
<zkriesse> wait
<brandonj> um
<zkriesse> fixed it
<zkriesse> i think
<brandonj> what was the issue?
<brandonj> it seems to be working, the page says 'updating branch' now
<zkriesse> 6. Finally, run:
<zkriesse>    bzr push
<zkriesse>    If you've never pushed code to this branch before, bzr will
<zkriesse> complain.  You can run:
<zkriesse>    bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2
<zkriesse>    to satisfy it.  From that point on, bzr will remember the location
<zkriesse> and you should be able to simply run 'bzr push'.
<zkriesse> that bzr manual on lists.lp
<zkriesse> godbyk: sent that to me
<brandonj> right
<brandonj> ok
<brandonj> you've got revisions 115 & 116
<brandonj> oh I see.  You did a commit earlier today, but didn't push it afterwords
<zkriesse> yeah
<zkriesse> I thought i did
<zkriesse> still learning
<brandonj> no big deal
<zkriesse> so now i can change the bug status of the one i fixed
<zkriesse> right?
<brandonj> to "fix commited"
<brandonj> not "fix released"
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> i guess i'll just skip using that Bazaar explorer and just use the terminal
<zkriesse> Terminal is better anyway is it not
<brandonj> I haven't used a gui for it, so I can't really say
<zkriesse> ah
<brandonj> but the cli gets the job done
<zkriesse> well i need to take a shower..when i come back i'll have some more questions if that's ok?
<brandonj> sure
<zkriesse> cool
<zkriesse> thanks dude
<brandonj> no problem
<zkriesse> brandonj: ping
<brandonj> hi
<brandonj> zkriesse: pong
<zkriesse> brandonj: when i try to unlock my ubuntu-manual to update i get "The lock for '/home/zach/Projects/ubuntu-manual' is in use and cannot be broken"
<zkriesse> Any idea on how to fix that?
<brandonj> I've never encountered that problem
<zkriesse> hmm
<brandonj> maybe it has something to do with the gui you're using?
<zkriesse> eh not using it now
<zkriesse> using terminal
<brandonj> what command did you use that produced that error?
<zkriesse> wasn't a terminal command at first
<zkriesse> in the ubuntu-manual folder i choose to update and it caved
<zkriesse> but i think that update button is there cause of the GUi
<zkriesse> so i think i'm gonna uninstall that
<brandonj> 'bzr pull'?
<zkriesse> bzr pull produces no issues
<zkriesse> i think it's the GUI causing issues
<brandonj> ok
<zkriesse> I'll just use the terminal
<brandonj> I once tried a similar gui for svn and it just caused me problems
<zkriesse> Any commands that you can give me?
<brandonj> well basically the only commands you really need are pull, commit, and push
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> pull does what
<brandonj> you can always type 'man bzr' to read the man page
<brandonj> bzr pull downloads newer revisions from launchpad
<zkriesse> how do i edit pages and such via the terminal?
<brandonj> you don't have to do that in the terminal if you don't want to
<zkriesse> Ok
<zkriesse> Well how do i edit a page
<brandonj> just open them in gedit or whatever
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> Are the pages in the different folders in /Projects/ubuntu-manual?
<brandonj> every chapter has a folder
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> so you can see there are folders for "installation" "commandline" "around-desktop" etc
<brandonj> each of those corresponds to a chapter
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> each folder has one or more .tex files that contain the actual text
<zkriesse> yup
<brandonj> you're familiar with latex?
<zkriesse> ah no
<brandonj> so if you open up one of the tex files you'll see they're all writen in latex
<zkriesse> Ah
<zkriesse> that's the format
<brandonj> right
<zkriesse> I wondered about that
<brandonj> latex is what generates nice pdfs
<brandonj> so there is a style guide somewhere that will give you a quick intro to what you need to know about that
<brandonj> let me find it
 * zkriesse waits
<brandonj> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
<brandonj> so theres some basic latex stuff there
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> oh ignore that style guide
<brandonj> this is the better one
<brandonj> http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
<zkriesse> yup  got that already
<brandonj> so theres basic latex stuff in there
<zkriesse> ok cool
<brandonj> you should be able to build the manual by typing 'make ubuntu-manual-en_US.pdf'
<brandonj> its usually a good idea to test that it still works after you make changes
<zkriesse> I keep seeing alot of LaTeX Marginpar error on page ""
<zkriesse> is that bad?
<brandonj> there will be lots of warnings
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> did you install the latest version of latex like is says on the website?
<zkriesse> you mean the one to compile from source? yes
<brandonj> ok.  did your pdf build correctly?
<zkriesse> meaning?
<brandonj> did it say "Success! Wrote 165 pages"?
<zkriesse> oh yeah
<brandonj> ok, good
<zkriesse> :D
<zkriesse> sorry for being such a noob at this
<brandonj> not a problem
<zkriesse> All I really edit is wiki stuff
<brandonj> oh look at that
<brandonj> there is a readme.txt file that has some useful info in there
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> pardon me for just a few, i've got to go ask my team if theyve been doing anything for the SoD project lately
<zkriesse> back
<brandonj> ok
<zkriesse> was going to change that Mac OS X issue
<zkriesse> I think it should be caps
<brandonj> hm i dont know much about that
<zkriesse> Eh
<zkriesse> I think godbyk is working on it anyway
<zkriesse> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/556425
<zkriesse> what do you think about that one
<brandonj> if you'd like to start working on it go ahead
<brandonj> I think the idea for the maverick release is to be more noob friendly
<zkriesse> ah
<zkriesse> which is good
<brandonj> ilya haykinson is the author coordinator, so you might give him a heads-up too
<zkriesse> any way that you know of that i can contact by?
<brandonj> on here
<brandonj> or email
<brandonj> https://launchpad.net/~haykinson
<zkriesse> thanks
<brandonj> np
<JamesMR> http://omgubuntu.co.uk/
<JamesMR> post on the book stats
<brandonj> awesome
<JamesMR> by humphreybc
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> Original stats gathered and summarized by godbyk :)
<JamesMR> OmgBot announces when new posts are made on the OMG!
<humphreybc> heh
<brandonj> it would be silly of him not to
<humphreybc> possibly the most useful thing OmgBot does, apart from the ability to give people a beer
<JamesMR> haha
<brandonj> if only they were real
<JamesMR> there is another one that he does which I forget
<JamesMR> I should know, I wrote it
<humphreybc> lol
<JamesMR> !digest
<JamesMR> that's the one
<abhi_nav> is kevin godby here?
<abhi_nav> hello
<nisshh> ooh: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/06/pytask-task-manager-is-simple.html thats my app
<nisshh> :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: that was a touching comment on omgubuntu, thanks for that!
<c7p> Hello, do anyone have the pictures of the upcoming personas stuff that humphreybc showed us a month ago ?
<nisshh> c7p: personas?
<nisshh> c7p: i have no idea what you mean
<nisshh> someone else might know
<c7p> nisshh: I'm not sure if that's the word (i.e persona) that he mentioned, "personas" (or whatever he called it) are some quickstart guides for different imaginary characters e.g Student, Entrepreneur, teenager etc
<c7p> nevermind :)
<c7p> cu later
<dutchie> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/06/26/s03e10-the-fresh-air-cure/ # featuring our very own humphreybc
<thorwil> dutchie: does he say anything new or outrageous in there? :)
<dutchie> not really
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping
<dutchie> humphreybc: he's probably still on the train
<dutchie> why am i in a permanent state of having no battery? :(
<humphreybc> awh
<humphreybc> where's godbyk off to/
<dutchie> wonder what i should do about the buttons for my dad's new 10.40 install
<dutchie> humphreybc: TeX conference in SF
<humphreybc> ahh, yes, he's super excited about that
<humphreybc> read the comment about the german translation: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/06/some-fun-stats-from-ubuntu-manual.html
<humphreybc> We need to get translated editions out ASAP
<godbyk-android> I have AC power on the train, but no Internet.
<godbyk-android> Sitting at the Denver station right now.
<ubuntujenkins> hey godbyk-android
<godbyk-android> Hey, ubuntujenkins.
<dutchie> 15:13:56 < humphreybc> godbyk: ping
<dutchie> dunno what he wanted
<dutchie> i suspect:
<dutchie> 15:26:42 < humphreybc> We need to get translated editions out ASAP
<godbyk-android> I don't think my net connection (via my phone) will last for too long once we leave Denver.
<godbyk-android> Ah, so nothing new. :-)
<dutchie> X appears to have heplfully crashed 79% through the install of 10.04 onto my dad's computer
<godbyk-android> I might try to work on some of the latex coding things for the translations while I'm on the train. We'll see how it goes.
<dutchie> someone was complaining about RTL support in an OMG Ubuntu comment
<dutchie> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/06/some-fun-stats-from-ubuntu-manual.html
<godbyk-android> Yeah, I haven't designed the rtl version of the manual yet.
<godbyk-android> It's a lower priority given the state I'd those translations, I think.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-android: I worked out that we are using differnet drivers to build some parts of the manual. One of them being that h* word
<godbyk-android> hyperref?
<zkriesse> hey gents
<ubuntujenkins> hello zkriesse
<zkriesse> ah hi ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> quite in here
<zkriesse> yeah
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: is there a meeting tonight?
<zkriesse> ubuntujenkins: there was a meeting the other day
<zkriesse> don't know if that's the one you're thinking of
<zkriesse> Wait...sorry
<zkriesse> I'm thinking of the docs meeting
<ubuntujenkins> no worries
<ubuntujenkins> pleia2: are we having the docs/manual/learning meeting soon?
<zkriesse> ah vish ya round?
<zkriesse> godbyk: how bout u
<ubuntujenkins> zkriesse: godbyk is on a train as far as i know
<zkriesse> ah
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> ubuntujenkins: Well I'm Zach..just started out wit you guys
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: no idea
<ubuntujenkins> hello Zach Kriesse right?
<zkriesse> yes
<ubuntujenkins> what would you like help with?
<ubuntujenkins> if anything :)
<zkriesse> Well the https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/556425
<zkriesse> I'm trying to figure out how much info do we want on the actual kernel itself
<zkriesse> too much can overwhelm the person(s) reading it...and from what godbyk told me it's going to start getting aimed at the much newer noob user
<ubuntujenkins> well personally i would say very little the manual is for people who are moving over from windows /getting started.( what godbyk said)
<zkriesse> Exactly
<ubuntujenkins> something like...
<zkriesse> and describing a kernel is going to be like, an overload of huge proportions
<ubuntujenkins> yea
<brandonj> come up with simple analogy & stick with that
<zkriesse> ah hey brandonj
<brandonj> hi
<ubuntujenkins> hello brandonj
<zkriesse> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel
<zkriesse> I found that....think you could pull the good info and i'll paste it in there?
<zkriesse> I'm not too familiar with the kernel myself
<zkriesse> I know WHAT it is but not a whole lot
<brandonj> the reader doesn't need to know a whole lot, or even a little lot
<ubuntujenkins> hmm best to write it yourself. i think about three lines is all we need if anything
<zkriesse> Ok
<thorwil> do our readers need to know anything about the kernel, actually?
<ubuntujenkins> thats what i am thinking
<zkriesse> Let me think of what I'd write then I'll paste it here for review before i commit it
<ubuntujenkins> they just need ubuntu to work
<zkriesse> True
<ubuntujenkins> 8thinking/leaning towards
<brandonj> I think they should be aware of its presence, so if somebody else mentions it they aren't completely confused
<zkriesse> Using Ubuntu itself is going to be a lot itself so a little will still be quite a bit
<ubuntujenkins> zkriesse: we write in us english which has confused me as i am in the uk
<ubuntujenkins> just in case no one had said :)
<zkriesse> ubuntujenkins: ah
<ubuntujenkins> I can't write anything that makes sense
<zkriesse> lol
<ubuntujenkins> all my stuff would just confuse people more than not telling them about it
<brandonj> is UK english more confusing than US english?
<ubuntujenkins> they are very similar but some spelling is different, which is harder to rember
<ubuntujenkins> *remember if you forget spelling easily like me.
<brandonj> yeah but that wouldn't confuse and reasonable person
<brandonj> any*
<ubuntujenkins> of course not but we try and make it all the same and then we translate to english uk
<brandonj> right
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: how is the english uk manual going?
<brandonj> builds.u-m.org says 100%
<ubuntujenkins> yea but then there is lots of extra tweaks and adjustments to get the layout spot on
<brandonj> oh
<ubuntujenkins> we like it looking smart and neat
<zkriesse> hehe
<ubuntujenkins> like margin note in the correct place they can some times be slightly out of place. also we don't want them over two pages also there is a whole list of other things
<ubuntujenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo
<ubuntujenkins> thats the list of stuff
<ubuntujenkins> plus check fonts, and i have to sort the index rules if it is not supported by xindy
<pleia2> ubuntujenkins: let me touch base with doctormo and get back to you re: meeting... hopefully I'll plan it on a day which isn't a holiday this time :)
<zkriesse> hey pleia2
<pleia2> ubuntujenkins: sounds like none of the teams have settled on document format, I've been working with docbook some though
<pleia2> doh
<pleia2> morning zkriesse
<zkriesse> :D
<zkriesse> brandonj: hey
<zkriesse> question
<zkriesse> trying to convert a .tex file to .pdf
<zkriesse> my own file of course
<brandonj> hi
<brandonj> um
<brandonj> read 'man pdflatex'
<dutchie> zkriesse: does "pdflatex <file>.tex" not work?
<zkriesse> dutchie: no
<zkriesse> it says it can't find the file
<zkriesse> I cd'd to my desktop where the file is
<zkriesse> wait hold on
<zkriesse> one sec
<ubuntujenkins> hello again all
<zkriesse> This is pdfTeX, Version 3.1415926-1.40.10 (TeX Live 2009)
<zkriesse> entering extended mode
<zkriesse> (./WikiGuidelines.tex
<zkriesse> LaTeX2e <2009/09/24>
<zkriesse> Babel <v3.8l> and hyphenation patterns for english, usenglishmax, dumylang, noh
<zkriesse> yphenation, german-x-2009-06-19, ngerman-x-2009-06-19, ancientgreek, ibycus, ar
<zkriesse> abic, basque, bulgarian, catalan, pinyin, coptic, croatian, czech, danish, dutc
<zkriesse> h, esperanto, estonian, farsi, finnish, french, galician, german, ngerman, mono
<zkriesse> greek, greek, hungarian, icelandic, assamese, bengali, gujarati, hindi, kannada
<zkriesse> , malayalam, marathi, oriya, panjabi, tamil, telugu, indonesian, interlingua, i
<zkriesse> rish, italian, kurmanji, latin, latvian, lithuanian, mongolian, mongolianlmc, b
<zkriesse> okmal, nynorsk, polish, portuguese, romanian, russian, sanskrit, serbian, slova
<zkriesse> k, slovenian, spanish, swedish, turkish, turkmen, ukenglish, ukrainian, upperso
<zkriesse> rbian, welsh, loaded.
<zkriesse> ! Undefined control sequence.
<zkriesse> l.3 \chapter
<zkriesse>             {Wiki Editing}
<zkriesse> ?
<zkriesse> ok what do i do?
<brandonj> rather than pasting that in here can you use a pastebin?
<zkriesse> oops sorry
<zkriesse> forgot
<brandonj> heh its ok
<zkriesse> as many times as i've told people to use pastebin i should know better
<brandonj> can you post your .tex file as well?
<zkriesse> you mean the one i wish to convert?
<brandonj> yes
<dutchie> i bet you need to \documentclass{book}
<brandonj> that could be it
<zkriesse> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/455626/
<brandonj> yes, add \documentclass{book}
<dutchie> zkriesse: you need a load of stuff around that
<zkriesse> ok what
<dutchie> \begin{document} wouldn't go amiss
<dutchie> hang on
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> Ugh...hate being a noob
<dutchie> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Absolute_Beginners#The_LaTeX_source for a minimal LaTeX document
<dutchie> that wikibook is rather good iirc
<zkriesse> ok so what do i do
<zkriesse> I'm more than new to this so...
<zkriesse> ah wait
<zkriesse> hold on lemme look
<dutchie> zkriesse: you want something like http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/455628/
<zkriesse> it still didn't work
<dutchie> what was the error now?
<zkriesse> one sec
<brandonj> \gls isn't defined I don't think
<brandonj> so that should give you an error
<zkriesse> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/455631/
<brandonj> did it work?
<zkriesse> no
<zkriesse> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/455631/
<brandonj> it says Output written on WikiGuidelines.pdf
<zkriesse> yeah but the pages are all messed up
<dutchie> try running it a few times
<dutchie> that sometimes sorts it out
<zkriesse> nope
<zkriesse> it's all messed up
<zkriesse> blank pages and such
<brandonj> those are meant to be there I think
<brandonj> from the book class
<zkriesse> I really didn't want a book
<zkriesse> just a page
<brandonj> try \documentclass{article} instead
<zkriesse> i did and it said it's missing a slash
<zkriesse> \
<brandonj> remove the table of contents
<brandonj> and change \chapter to \section
<brandonj> \chapter doesnt exist in the article class
<brandonj> you can change the other sections to \subsection
<brandonj> and \subsubsection as appropriate
<zkriesse> ok now it's getting there
<zkriesse> how do i add a text link?
<zkriesse> or is that not possible
<brandonj> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Hyperlinks
<dutchie> a text link to what?
<zkriesse> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<brandonj> if you put \usepackage{hyperref} in the preamble (the part before \begin{document}) you can use \url{url}
<brandonj> or you can do \href{url}{text}
<zkriesse> ok think i got it
<zkriesse> I want to push it up to my project on lp
<zkriesse> oh it put WikiGuidelines.toc on my desktop.
<zkriesse> can i delete that stuff?
<brandonj> yeah
<zkriesse> ok pushing it up to lp
<brandonj> i don't know a whole lot about launchpad
<brandonj> do you already have a branch you're using?
<zkriesse> yeh
<zkriesse> THink i got it
<brandonj> i think you can just do bzr add file.tex
<zkriesse> many thanks getns
<zkriesse> "gents
<brandonj> I'm off to study for the gre
<brandonj> bye
<godbyk-android> Passing through Glenwood Springs, Colorado, now.
<godbyk-android> Will see how long the cell phone reception lasts.
<zkriesse> godbyk-android: cool
<godbyk-android> Some mother keeps screaming at her baby to stop crying; the baby's paying no mind.
<godbyk-android> (Not entirely sure how she expected that to work.)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-27
<dutchie> godbyk-android: alive?
<dutchie> or lost in the wilderness of the USA
<dutchie> 'twould seem the latter
<godbyk-android> I think I'm online for a moment
<dutchie> how are you doing?
<dutchie> it's probably a sensible time where you are actualyl
<godbyk-android> But still going through the mountains, so it could drop the connection at any moment.
<dutchie> sounds fun
<godbyk-android> Not bad. It's 18:15 local time.
<dutchie> my wireless could drop the connection at any moment, but that's because the router's rubbish
<dutchie> it's 1:15 am local time
<godbyk-android> Heh, nice.
<dutchie> i have no desire to go to bed
<dutchie> w:(
<dutchie> some sort of fez?
<dutchie> maybe not a fez
<dutchie> a novelty hat of some description
<brandonj> or an interesting hair cut
<dutchie> could be
<zkriesse> heh
<zkriesse> brandonj: ping
<brandonj> I'm here
<brandonj> zkriesse: pong..
<zkriesse> just wanted to know if you'd like to discuss that kernel issue
<brandonj> oh
<brandonj> what about it
<zkriesse> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel
<zkriesse> Take a look at that....what do you think we should pull
<brandonj> I think it only needs to be 2 or 3 sentences
<zkriesse> Ok
<zkriesse> my thought too
<brandonj> I think if you want inspiration this article will be more helpful: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computer_science)
<brandonj> simple english wikipedia is wonderful ;)
<zkriesse> Definitely
<brandonj> I wouldn't even mention micro vs monolithic though
<brandonj> that isn't important
<zkriesse> Wasn't going to
<zkriesse> The Kernel is best described as the core, or almost the brain, of the operating system. It's responsible for creating and destroying memory so programs have space to reside on the hard-drive, and it also can be thought of as the program which mangages any and all programs on the computer.
<zkriesse> That's what i got so far
<brandonj> I think the 2nd sentence might even be too technical
<zkriesse> How would you word it?
<brandonj> hmm
<brandonj> The kernel is the shift manager of the operating system; it is responsible for allocating memory and processor time.
<brandonj> something like that maybe
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> I'll commit it/push it
<brandonj> and then seperate the part after "and it can also be though of" into another sentence maybe
<brandonj> the 'almost' in the beginning sounds awkward to me as well, but thats all I can think of right now
<brandonj> What page is this going on?
<zkriesse> prologue
<brandonj> ok
<zkriesse> i forgot where the revision page is at
<zkriesse> wait got it
<zkriesse> it's pushed
<zkriesse> go ahead and grab it to see
<brandonj> ok
<brandonj> I think perhaps it should be folded into the "What is Linux?" section rather than on its own
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> I can fix that
<zkriesse> gimme one sec
<brandonj> and when you name it call it the Linux kernel
<brandonj> if you introduce it as just 'the kernel' it might be confusing initially
<zkriesse> true
<zkriesse> Put it right after the ending sentence of what is linux?
<brandonj> no
<zkriesse> google) run some variant of a unix system
<brandonj> yeah, after that probably
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> ok pushed
<zkriesse> how's it look
<brandonj> oh I think it should be a new paragraph
<zkriesse> how come in the recent revisions my bug lp:bug doesn't link to the bug itself
<zkriesse> but your's does
<brandonj> don't put lp:bug, put lp:###### which the number of the bug
<brandonj> replace ###### with the bug number, that is
<zkriesse> bzr commit --fixes=lp:596853 -m "Fixed bug lp:bug 596853"
<zkriesse> that should be bzr commit --fixes=lp:596853 -m "Fixed bug lp:596853" you mean?
<brandonj> yes
<zkriesse> oh ok
<zkriesse> :D
<zkriesse> I'm getting the hang of it i think!
<brandonj> good
<zkriesse> for some reason every time i do "bzr push" it comes back with
<zkriesse> Using saved push location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/
<zkriesse> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/.bzr/branch/lock): Transport operation not possible: http does not support mkdir()
<zkriesse> but if i do bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2 it runs fine
<brandonj> you should probably be pushing to https
<brandonj> so for some reason it has the http url saved in there
<zkriesse> ok so how do i save the https?
<brandonj> and not the https one
<brandonj> I have no idea
<zkriesse> hmm
<brandonj> you could always just push any changes you've just made, and remove your entire manual directory and redownload it
<brandonj> I think the gui you were using did some things to the bzr config
<zkriesse> you mean remove the ubuntu-manual from Projects?
<brandonj> yeah
<zkriesse> ok
<brandonj> you can always get it again with 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual'
<zkriesse> just cd into projects right?
<brandonj> yes
<zkriesse> ok lemme try that
<brandonj> then you'll have to do bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/ the next time you want to push, but it shoudl save it after that
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> gonna delete that gui too
<zkriesse> i deleted bazaar explorer
<zkriesse> do i need ground control?
<brandonj> i dont think so
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> i'll delete it too
<zkriesse> what bzr plugins do you use?
<zkriesse> bzr-dbus one is nice
<brandonj> i dont have any installed i dont think
<zkriesse> ok fetching manual again
<zkriesse> while that's downloading i'm gonna go take a shower...be back shortly
<brandonj> ok
<brandonj> zkriesse: I would move the last sentence of the 1st paragraph under "what is linux" onto the next paragraphh
<zkriesse> brandonj: say that again?
<brandonj> zkriesse: I would move the last sentence of the 1st paragraph under "what is linux" onto the next paragraphh
<brandonj> oh
<brandonj> zkriesse: I would move the last sentence of the 1st paragraph under "what is linux" onto the next paragraphh
<zkriesse> brandonj: ok...i'm trying to figure out what's wrong with xchat right now
<brandonj> haha i can see that
<zkriesse> it won't join all the channels in my auto join list AND it joins channels that aren't in it
<zkriesse> any ideas?
<brandonj> uh thats weird
<brandonj> no i have no idea
<zkriesse> oh
<godbyk-android> Hey, ubuntujenkins.
<ubuntujenkins> hey godbyk-android
<dutchie> o/
<ubuntujenkins> it was hyperref that we are using differnt drivers for
<godbyk-android> I don't think it's possible to compile the translations of lucid-e2. (There aren't any translations for it yet, really.)
<godbyk-android> Ah, okay.
<godbyk-android> Can you get yours to match mine?
<ubuntujenkins> I had not noticed that he was e-mailing about edition 2
<ubuntujenkins> I will try and make them match I can't find that driver yet
<godbyk-android> Hey, dutchie!
<godbyk-android> I don't think he mentioned it--it's just always been the case with that particular error message.
<ubuntujenkins> I hope its a missing package or something. I am few version numbers out here and there but there are some strange extra bits in  my log file when you use meld diff viewer. I will send them to you
<godbyk-android> I'm a bit irked that cellphone reception in the middle of the Nevada desert is better than at my house.
<godbyk-android> 'kay.
<ubuntujenkins> yea that would be very anoying
<godbyk-android> I think I'm running a mostly up-to-date version of tex live 2009.
<godbyk-android> We're currently at a complete stop and I don't know why
<thorwil> godbyk-android: so will you move to the middle of the nevada desert, then?
<godbyk-android> Perhaps being 3 his behind isn't enough.
<godbyk-android> thorwil: i think I'll pass. I rather like trees.
<ubuntujenkins> I had a problem with the bin package and pactches not applying to for loads of reasons so that one is slightly out of date.
<thorwil> tree are awesome. they have leaves or needles and shit!
 * dutchie is not full of love for trees at the moment
<dutchie> trees also have pollen :(
<godbyk-android> thorwil:  exactly! Plus, I don't need temperature swings of 50 degrees every night.
<godbyk-android> Yay! We're moving again.
<thorwil> i seem to be slightly allergic to some pollen, but thankfully it's quite bearable and i don't even know or need to know what it is
<ubuntujenkins> congrats thorwil
 * dutchie wonders if thorwil will know what ubuntujenkins is talking about
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: heh, thanks :)
<dutchie> heh, yes
<thorwil> dutchie: i just come from watching the game with family
<ChrisWoollard> hmph!
<ubuntujenkins> prehaps pigin is not good for irc
<ubuntujenkins> it does not show you away on irc when you choose away in the me menu
<dutchie> file a bug
<ubuntujenkins> o no i lie
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: not perhaps. or at least, when i last looked at it, it was amazingly terrible
<ubuntujenkins> last time i tried it was, I would liek to try and keep all my messaging in one program
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntujenkins2:
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntujenkins2:
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntujenkins2:
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntujenkins2:
<ubuntujenkins> pidgin is not bad actually once you enable a few plugins
<ubuntujenkins2> ubuntujenkins: ping
 * dutchie pokes ubuntujenkins2/ ubuntujenkins for spamming
<dutchie> use your own channel
<ubuntujenkins2> sorry will do
<ubuntujenkins2> I do forget you can make up a channel on the spot
<thorwil> oh, how verbose: http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/
<dutchie> i think that's one of aquarius's
<thorwil> aquarius?
<thorwil> When the moon is in the Seventh House And Jupiter  aligns with Mars?
<zkriesse> zach@zach-desktop:~/Projects/ubuntu-manual$ make
<zkriesse> bzr version-info --custom --template="Revision number: {revno}\qquad Revision date: {date}\n\n" > revision.tex
<zkriesse> /bin/bash: bzr: command not found
<zkriesse> make: *** [main.pdf] Error 127
<zkriesse> think i uninstalled bzr
<zkriesse> don't know how i did but i did
<zkriesse> hey brandonj ping
<zkriesse> hello askhl_
<zkriesse> hey godbyk-android
<godbyk-android> Hey. Talk fast; signal may drop.
<zkriesse> just sayin hey is all
<godbyk-android> Ah, hey.
<godbyk-android> On a train just outside of Reno.
<zkriesse> cool
<zkriesse> gotta go..helping a guy compile new version of xchat
<thorwil> godbyk-android: where are you heading to, if i may ask?
<godbyk-android> Heading to TeX conference in San Francisco.
<godbyk-android> tug.org/tug2010
<thorwil> godbyk-android: cool. will you wear a flower in your hair? :)
<godbyk-android> lol. I think I'll pass. :-)
<thorwil> really does sound like an awesome conference. for tex heads :)
<godbyk-android> Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's entirely too eccentric for most people, though.
 * thorwil checks a map and notes it's quite a trip
<daker> hello @all
<zkriesse> hello daker
<daker> i konw you zkriesse ?
<zkriesse> daker: Ah I'm not sure...do you?
<daker> no :)
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> daker: and what brings you here today?
<daker> tell ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> tell me what daker?
<daker> ubuntujenkins, <zkriesse> daker: and what brings you here today?
<daker> zkriesse, i should ask ubuntujenkins
<daker> ubuntujenkins,  and what brings you here today?
<ubuntujenkins> well its fun here, i like to help people when i can
<vish> daker: hey,  probably might need another banner :D
<daker> brb
 * daker is back
<daker> zkriesse, nice to meet you :)
<zkriesse> daker: likewise
<daker> zkriesse, editor ?
<zkriesse> daker: somewhat...
<zkriesse> daker: yourself?
<daker> webmaster (3w.ubuntu-manual.org)
<daker> any django experience ?
<zkriesse> nope
 * zkriesse has to go for a while
<daker> oki
<brandonj> people still use the word 'webmaster'? =P
<daker> flan, ping
<askhl_> hello zkriesse, sorry for not reacting earlier
<zkriesse> askhl_: it's ok...
<zkriesse> I don't even remember what i was asking at the time i pinged you
<askhl_> All right :)
<daker> ubuntujenkins, shame on ENG 4 - 1 :s
<ubuntujenkins> we were rubbish all though lampards goal was in and the ref should have gone to specvavers
<ubuntujenkins> *specsavers
<daker> yep it was
#ubuntu-manual 2011-06-26
<c7p> hey what's up ?
#ubuntu-manual 2012-06-22
<godbyk> Hey, hannie.
#ubuntu-manual 2012-06-23
<gus-tavo> hi, i need help
<gus-tavo> exit
<gus-tavo> quit
<PriceChild> !ops
<PricceChild> !ops
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil. Are you around?
<thorwil> godbyk: seems so :)
<godbyk> thorwil: Cool. Question for you.  top bar, Top bar, Top Bar.  Choose one. :)
<godbyk> We're capitalizing Launcher and Dash.
<godbyk> (Also, I think "top bar" sounds kinds of silly, but it seems to be what everyone calls it.)
<thorwil> hmm. it's such a generic term, that implying it's a specific name seems problematic
<thorwil> then again, it does belong to the trio, with Dash and Launcher
<godbyk> Yeah, such is the quandary. Hence my appeal to you. :-)
<thorwil> godbyk: if we can treat it more as a description, not as a Name, it must be "top bar"
<godbyk> The Ubuntu wiki and even the official docs aren't terribly helpful because they're inconsistent in the capitalization of these terms.
<godbyk> Here are some usage examples from the manual (with their current, inconsistent formatting and spelling):
<godbyk> On the top bar, select \menu{File\then New Window}.
<godbyk> Ubuntu 12.04 comes with an indicator menu in the top bar for sound-related applications and devices.
 * thorwil wonders how and why the concept of capitalization developed, given that it has no equal in speech
<godbyk> If a windows is maximized, its top-left buttons and menu are automatically hidden from view. To make them appear, just move your mouse to the left side of the \menu{Top Bar}.
 * godbyk wonders when you Germans will stop capitalizing every Noun in the Sentence.
<thorwil> godbyk: if a case arrives where "top bar" refers to any other bar ...
<godbyk> In earlier times (in English, at least), they tended to capitalize any words they thought were Important.
<thorwil> godbyk: do you know the german example in facor of capitalization. "helft den armen vÃ¶geln?"
<thorwil> if we capitalize *the* "Top Bar", it helps with distinction if there is any other top bar
<godbyk> thorwil: Heh! A fair point. :)
<godbyk> True.
<godbyk> Looking at the results of grep -i top.bar */*.tex, it appears that it always refers to *the* top bar.
<godbyk> (Though the grammar surround the term varies slightly. More nitpicky details for me to consider, I suppose.)
<godbyk> There's also a margin note that states: \emph{Top Bar} is also referred as \emph{Top Panel}.
<godbyk> And "top panel" is used in a few other places in the manual (always lowercase, incidentally).
<thorwil> godbyk: btw, that german sentence can be read as either "help the poor birds" or "help the poor to (uhm ...) screw". capitalization can make it unambiguous.
<godbyk> thorwil: A quick Google search revealed that.
<thorwil> godbyk: it was funny when i brought that example up, when my flatmate from china questioned the need for capitalization. only after opening my mouth, i realized that i would no have to explain that bit of slang ...
<thorwil> luckily the reaction of a 3rd person an my slight unease was all the hinting required
<godbyk> heh
<thorwil> godbyk: cool. i would have assumed all useful explanations to be in german ...
<godbyk> The non-best answer here <http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111004160153AAhRbLz> helped.
<godbyk> Interestingly, the best answer was useless.
<thorwil> 0.o
<godbyk> Google Translate apparently doesn't take the difference in capitalization into account, btw. It translates both phrases the same.
<thorwil> yahoo answers, frequent example of how things should not work out
<godbyk> Agreed.
#ubuntu-manual 2012-06-24
<thorwil> godbyk: crocodoc appears to be very well made. but you have to take care of each change manually, right?
<thorwil> godbyk: in terms of a revision control system, each concrete suggestion could actually be a patch with message, that can be merged into the next rev by anyone with appropriate permissions
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah. I manually make the corrections to the .tex files and push the changes to bzr.  I generally group a few changes together so we don't have massive numbers of commits, though one could argue that I really ought to make one change per commit.
<godbyk> thorwil: They also have an API but I haven't looked at it at all yet. If their API allows us to download a list of annotations, we may be able to parse some of that to help automate the process slightly.
#ubuntu-manual 2013-06-18
<JimConnett> Good day, all. This is a test meeting for me to use to check out the options with meetingology. Please disregard the contents of this meeting.
<JimConnett> #chair JimConnett
<JimConnett> #commands
<JimConnett> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 18 20:15:44 2013 UTC.  The chair is JimConnett. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<JimConnett> #chair JimConnett
<meetingology> Current chairs: JimConnett
<JimConnett> #link www.google.com
<JimConnett> #meetingtopic Agenda item #1...
<JimConnett> #action JimConnett agrees to test meetingology
<meetingology> ACTION: JimConnett agrees to test meetingology
<JimConnett> #info Meetingology is a very useful tool!
<JimConnett> #info ...should use it every opportunity we have.
<JimConnett> #meetingtopic Agenda item #2....
<JimConnett> #help Need help creating the ubuntu manual!
<JimConnett> #idea Hmm...shouldn't we be outside where it's a sunny day?
<JimConnett> Does this conclude item #2?
<JimConnett> Ok...on to #3
<JimConnett> #meetingtopic Agenda item #3...
<JimConnett> #action JimConnett to close voting on doodle on Wednesday night.
<meetingology> ACTION: JimConnett to close voting on doodle on Wednesday night.
<JimConnett> Ok...I think that's it.
<JimConnett> Meetingology is pretty slick!
<meetingology> JimConnett: Error: "is" is not a valid command.
<JimConnett> This tool is pretty slick!
<JimConnett> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 18 20:21:19 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-06-18-20.15.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-06-18-20.15.html
<JimConnett> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 18 20:23:06 2013 UTC.  The chair is JimConnett. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<JimConnett> #chair JimConnett
<meetingology> Current chairs: JimConnett
<JimConnett> #meetingtopic Test Run
<JimConnett> #topic Agenda 1
<JimConnett> #idea Should have a clear agenda
<JimConnett> #action JimConnett to create a clear and concise agenda
<meetingology> ACTION: JimConnett to create a clear and concise agenda
<JimConnett> #topic Agenda 2
<JimConnett> Ok we're done!
<JimConnett> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 18 20:24:03 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-06-18-20.23.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-06-18-20.23.html
#ubuntu-manual 2013-06-20
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie.
<CarstenG> Thanks for updatng the screenshots!
<CarstenG> +i
<cqfd93> Hi Carsten, you're welcome!
<CarstenG> ok
<CarstenG> See you later.
<CarstenG> Good night.
<cqfd93> Good night!  (too late :-) )
#ubuntu-manual 2013-06-23
<cqfd93> Hi CarstenG
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<cqfd93> I just pushed a new version of your 02-applications-lens.png screenshot
<cqfd93> it now has more colorful icons
<CarstenG> ah, thanks
<CarstenG> Will just have a look
<cqfd93> ok
<CarstenG> Ah, I see. You  mean the last row of icons?
<cqfd93> Yes
<cqfd93> and all 5 now show free software
<CarstenG> You perfect in manipulating screenshots without doing them new :-)
<cqfd93> ;-)
<cqfd93> I just use The Gimp
