#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-15
<humphreybc> what's happening everyone
<humphreybc> dutchie, ping
<humphreybc> oh wait you're probably asleep
<humphreybc> nevermind xD
<godbyk> He was around an hour ago.
<humphreybc> that's all good
<humphreybc> it's like 2am there now
<humphreybc> godbyk: i read your comments, and I think they're valid. i'll rewrite some of the quickshot wiki
<godbyk> humphreybc: did they make sense?
<humphreybc> sort of
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> Basically, your program should do everything automatically if it can, and only involve the user when it must.
<humphreybc> i get the idea
<humphreybc> yup
<godbyk> Don't pester the user with questions that it can answer itself.
<godbyk> Make it as easy as possible for the user.
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> could you clarify "Â QuickShotÂ sets the default language to match the system language"
<godbyk> Oh, in the dropdown list of languages, it should default to the current (system) language.
<humphreybc> okay gotcha
<humphreybc> godbyk: read over the new workflow: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<godbyk> humphreybc: Sounds a lot better.
<humphreybc> cool... right now just have to write it :P
<humphreybc> godbyk: i'm just trying to think what would be the best way to run the "database" of screenshots
<godbyk> humphreybc: Just have a small MySQL db running on a web server that responds to requests from the QuickShot app for data.
<humphreybc> yup that's what i was thinking. we need some test screenshots... and some way of populating the database from the latex screenshot thing
<godbyk> Well, the list of screenshots that LaTeX is spitting out right now will change as the \screenshotTODOs get replaced by actual screenshots.
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> so where should i start?
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs xD
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/quickshot
<humphreybc> i added you as a member :)
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> I'd start working on the UI stuff first.. to get the workflow set up.
<godbyk> then figure out how to take the screenshots and whatnot.
<godbyk> we can fill in the data later.
<godbyk> (that's the easy part)
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> so the UI i guess i should use glade or something?
<humphreybc> what do you think of the logo too: http://humphreybc.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/icon192.png
<godbyk> the ubuntu logo isn't necessary
<godbyk> the camera icon is okay.
<godbyk> but the desktop screenshot doesn't really fit.
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> but i can't be bothered changing it now :)
<humphreybc> maybe in the future sometime
 * humphreybc is blindly trying to work out glade
<humphreybc> godbyk: you can use bzr branch lp:quickshot to see what I have so far
<godbyk> sure
<humphreybc> I'm using quickly and glade to create the UI. So you'd probably want to open them using those
<humphreybc> otherwise it'll just look like nothing
<humphreybc> if you could write a couple of lines of python that runs the program thus far, that'd be great xD
<humphreybc> wait for about 5 mins till i push lots of changes
<humphreybc> heh i just chatted to jono on facebook, he thinks it's a "fucking awesome" project... his words!
<humphreybc> xD
<godbyk> Adobe Photoshop?  Oh noes!
<humphreybc> yeah hold up
<humphreybc> i just lost all the work i was just doing
<humphreybc> bloody bzr
 * humphreybc hates diverged branches with a passion
 * humphreybc also thinks that launchpad is ridiculously slow
<humphreybc> okay i had to delete the branch and set up a new one
<humphreybc> godbyk: try this one now. bzr branch lp:quickshot
<godbyk> humphreybc: you're missing the icon.png file
<humphreybc> huh? where?
<godbyk> in data/media/
<humphreybc> oh right
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> pushing through with the icon now
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> it's loading the icon in glade
<humphreybc> but not when it's run
<godbyk> it's also looking for it in data/ui/logo.png
<humphreybc> i wonder why the buttons are so ginormous
<humphreybc> i fixed the icon thing
<humphreybc> just put it in /ui
<humphreybc> ok i've fixed the huge buttons
<humphreybc> i can't get it to make the window smaller tho
<godbyk> turn off the fill under the packing tab
<godbyk> what are you using to create/edit the UI?
<humphreybc> ah sweet
<humphreybc> nope i got it
<humphreybc> glade
<humphreybc> under height request
<humphreybc> godbyk: just pushing through some more changes
<humphreybc> I fixed a lot of the height, spacing, padding, button sizes and logo
<humphreybc> looks nice now
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<humphreybc> i put a screenshot on the wiki
<humphreybc> godbyk: i was talking to martin owens over skype today
<humphreybc> and he suggested that quickshot creates an entire new user
<humphreybc> so we don't mess with people's themes and such
<humphreybc> then we just ask them to switch user to the new user and take shots
<godbyk> That could work.
<godbyk> Or use the guest account.
<humphreybc> also, instead of uploading every shot each time, he said we should create a projects directory or something in the "quickshot users" home directory, where the images are stored. Then they can capture as many as they want, and once they're finished, upload them all
<godbyk> (The guest account would clean up after itself)
<humphreybc> no no guest account is bad because there is hardly any read/write privilages
<godbyk> That's true.
<humphreybc> and he suggested instead of having a mysql database, we should just use a bzr branch
<humphreybc> with a directory structure for languages
<humphreybc> then quickshot can just get the bzr branch, add the images the user takes from their projects directory and push. we could enable auto merging
<humphreybc> and to prevent the branch from getting too big, we could have one branch for each language, or one branch for each chapter
<humphreybc> and he said something about using empty files or empty folders as a way of the app knowing if that shot has already been taken or not
<godbyk> well, you wouldn't want to force someone to check out a branch full of images just to see which ones may still need to be created.
<godbyk> brb
<godbyk> back
<humphreybc> i think i just broke the quickly run command somehow
<humphreybc> should i push it for you to have a look?
<humphreybc> Traceback (most recent call last):
<humphreybc>   File "bin/quickshot", line 111, in <module>
<humphreybc>     window = NewQuickshotWindow()
<humphreybc>   File "bin/quickshot", line 95, in NewQuickshotWindow
<humphreybc>     window.finish_initializing(builder)
<humphreybc> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'finish_initializing'
<humphreybc> is dutchie awake yet?
<godbyk> Hey, komsas. Did you figure out how to compile the translated manual?
<komsas> Hi, yes dutchie gave me https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00548.html
<godbyk> Perfect! Let me know if you run into any problems.
<komsas> but I have one problem. But I get error "! LaTeX Error: File `polyglossia.sty' not found."
<komsas> I dont find anything how to solve it.
<godbyk> komsas: Did you install the TeX Live 2009?  The polyglossia package is in there.
<komsas> yes I did
<godbyk> It's *not* in the version of TeX Live that is in the Ubuntu repositories, unfortunately.
<komsas> I know, I did like your wrote in that mini manual
<godbyk> What does it say when you type: "which xelatex"?
<komsas> /usr/bin/xelatex
<godbyk> How about "kpsewhich polyglossia.sty"?
<komsas> nothing
<godbyk> Okay.  How about: "dpkg-query -s texlive-xetex | grep Status"
<komsas> "Status: install ok installed"
<godbyk> Ah, so it's using the old texlive stuff.
<godbyk> open synaptic and remove all the texlive-* packages.
<komsas> But I remove all packages
<godbyk> Strange.  It thinks it's still installed.  Does Synaptic think it's still installed?
<komsas> I will look..
<godbyk> Also, what does "which tlmgr" return?
<komsas> nothing, it strange but apt-get showing that texlive-xetex installed
<godbyk> okay.  uninstall that.  and remove and other texlive packages that are still installed, too.
<komsas> ok I will try
<komsas> and after remove install text live 2009?
<godbyk> Yes, if you haven't already installed TeX Live 2009, you'll need to do that.
<komsas> thanks godbyk
<godbyk> komsas: No problem.  If you continue to run into problems, feel free to pester me.
<humphreybc> godbyk: I've changed the quickshot workflow, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<godbyk> humphreybc: It may also have to install apps that aren't installed (bzr, the app that screenshot is of, the language packs and fonts)..
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> jesus i'm getting sick of this slow internet
<humphreybc> i'm going to ring the ISP tomorrow and demand answers
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> 10KB/s is a good speed...
<godbyk> humphreybc: btw, we might want to change the title of my session to "LaTeX for Authors and Translators"
<humphreybc> okay sure, do you want to do that?
<godbyk> Just on the wiki? I can do that.
<humphreybc> http://www.speedtest.net/result/717233561.png
<humphreybc> yep just on the wiki
<godbyk> Looks like everyone hates your ISP.
<godbyk> And I can see why, with those speeds.
<godbyk> Gah.. too many things to do! :-)
<godbyk> I'm going to play on the treadmill and clear my head.  When I get back, I think I'll start working on writing a style guide and work on my presentation for this LaTeX stuff.
<godbyk> Be back in about 20 minutes.
<humphreybc> sweet as
<humphreybc> dutchie: could you check my feed is going to Planet UM? I've posted a few things these past couple of days and nothing appears to be getting through
<komsas> humphreybc: I think you must come to Lithuania http://www.speedtest.net/result/717238607.png we live much better (in virtual world) ;)
<humphreybc> wow
<humphreybc> yeah NZ is notorious for it's incredibly slow internet speeds
<humphreybc> we're wayy behind the rest of the world in IT advancements and networking
<godbyk> back
<humphreybc> well that was cool... my wireless got dropped and then network-manager crashed and refused to restart
<humphreybc> anyway, should i push my branch for quickshot even though the command to run the program doesn't work?
<godbyk> up to you.
<godbyk> probably doesn't hurt, since no one's doing anything with it yet.
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> pushing it up now
<humphreybc> I don't know how much of a python whizz you are
<godbyk> Not much of one.  I haven't written any gui stuff with it yet.
<godbyk> I've used it primarily for text processing and NLP stuff.
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> that's all good
<humphreybc> i'll pester dutchie :D
<humphreybc> dutchie, bzr branch lp:quickshot
<humphreybc> heh
<komsas> godbyk: now I get error when ran make http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/d22fb8f6c something with fonts
<ubuntujenkins> komsas I can't help much but did you run the install script?
<komsas> yes and I get "Done! You should now be able to compile the Ubuntu manual!" so everthing is fine.
<ubuntujenkins> when did you last run it? it was updated yesterday
<komsas> Ok I'm going to pull
<komsas> ubuntujenkins: nothing new, all package are installed
<ubuntujenkins> are you compiling in english?
<komsas> no, lithuanian
<ubuntujenkins> Well this may be no help but check you have texlive-fonts-reccomended and texlive-latx-recommended installed. I would think the script looks for those.
<ubuntujenkins> !paste
<manualbot> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://ubuntu.pastebin.com | To post !screenshots use http://tinyurl.com/imagebin | !pastebinit to paste directly from  command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic
<ubuntujenkins> komsas I have to go to a lecture but this is the screen shot of all of the packages that I have installed http://imagebin.org/84893
<komsas> thanks ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> if i can i will help when i am there
<ubuntujenkins> komsas did you solve it?
<komsas> no, strange I installed TeX Live 2009 but synaptic showing that all packages, not like in your screenshot, are 2007.
<komsas> before compiling texlive 2009 I removed all texlive packages.
<ubuntujenkins> I am running Lucid so thats why the packages are different. What you you run to build in lithuainan?
<ubuntujenkins> *lithuanian
<komsas> 9.10
<ubuntujenkins> I think the packages will be older versions in 9.10 should make no difference. Mine complies in english how do I compile it in lithuanian?
<komsas> make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf
<dutchie> komsas: what does 'dpkg --get-selections | grep texlive' say?
<komsas> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m7cd215e
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/376953/
<dutchie> komsas: that output says you have texlive packages installed
<komsas> yes, but they dont work correctly
<dutchie> you need them not installed
<komsas> last error was ! LaTeX Error: File `ccicons.sty' not found.
<dutchie> to build in lithuanian
<komsas> I did everythink like in godbyk said in email
<komsas> mail *
<dutchie> that output says fifferently
<dutchie> differently*
<dutchie> komsas: run "sudo aptitude remove texlive*"
<komsas> and what then?
<dutchie> it should work
<komsas> with aptitude you cant do this, apt-get works :)
<dutchie> why does it not work?
<komsas> with that command it removed xelatex
<dutchie> it should remove xelatex
<dutchie> you want to remove the xelatex installed from the ubuntu repositories and install one from upstream
<komsas> but I did that
<dutchie> you didn't remove the ubuntu texlive packages
<komsas> I did :) 2 times
<komsas> than compile 2009
<dutchie> well, they're still there :)
<komsas> so I dont know from where they come :))
<komsas> install-pkgs.sh ?
<komsas> I think it did that, some dependences install packages again
<komsas> I think so :)
<ubuntujenkins> as a test I have the 2009 by default in lucid should I be able to compile it? I do get an error but a different one at the moment. I may just confuse things
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: maybe, godbyk is really the guy to ask
<komsas> in what time zone godbyk lives?
<dutchie> US somewhere
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie I know I have been trying to help
<dutchie> komsas: can you post the install-pkgs.log file?
<komsas> http://paste.ubuntu.com/376965/
<dutchie> komsas: can you run through the steps of that email again?
<dutchie> post all the output as it happens :)
<komsas> Ok, but compiling 2009 version take a lot of time :) more then 1h
<dutchie> sure
<dutchie> that's fine
<dutchie> komsas: how's it going?
<komsas> compiling
 * dutchie decides to have a go himself
<komsas> dutchie: thanks for care about me :))
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> looks like I'll have to remove fedora first
<komsas> u on fedora?
<komsas> wow, I thougth everybody on ubuntu :))
<dutchie> well, I have a fedora partition that I never use
<komsas> dutchie: http://paste.ubuntu.com/377050/
<dutchie> OK, I think it can't find the packages
<dutchie> where are you installing texlive to?
<komsas> default dirs http://paste.ubuntu.com/377052/
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> might be able to help more once I've finished doing it
<komsas> I think one of pacakge from install-pkgs needs all texlive old packages, so it install all them
<komsas> k
<dutchie> sweet, jono just  tweeted our 48 hours event
<annakamilla> hello
<dutchie> hi annakamilla, can we help?
<annakamilla> no
<annakamilla> i was reading manual do ubuntu version beta
<dutchie> annakamilla: did you have any feedback?
<thorwil> godbyk: _started_ to compare font with a mean text in inkscape. sans first: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/font_test.svg-20100215185059-zy2dcn999qds8tvs-1/font_test.svg
<godbyk> komsas: Are you still around?
<komsas> yes, godbyk
<komsas> did you saw me log file?
<godbyk> I can help you with compiling the manual if you're still having problems.
<godbyk> Yeah.
<godbyk> Running the install-pkgs.sh script only works with the old 2007 TeX Live.
<godbyk> It will keep installing the 2007 packages if it thinks something is missing.
<komsas> so that to do?
<komsas> what *
<godbyk> (At some point, I'm going to have to migrate everything to the 2009 version -- even the English -- because the 2007 version is tool ancient.)
<godbyk> komsas: Make sure that all the texlive-* packages are uninstalled.
<godbyk> When you ran the TeX Live 2009 installer, did you have it install everything or a smaller subset of the packages?
<komsas> I did all, but last time I installed only lithuanian
<godbyk> Do you still have the install-tl script?
<komsas> yes
<godbyk> Let's run it again (I think it will skip things that are already installed) and we'll make sure it's installing the required packages.
<godbyk> Go to the directory with the tl-install script and run: sudo ./tl-install
<godbyk> Let me know when you get to the first menu.
<komsas> ok
<godbyk> You're at the menu?
<dutchie> godbyk: I think the install-pkgs.sh script fails to detect the 2009 packages and then installs 2007 from the repos
<godbyk> dutchie: It may, though it *should* detect them.. (it does on my system, at least).
<godbyk> But yeah, that's basically what's been happening to komsas.
<godbyk> I've been trying to avoid it, but for the glossaries to work well, and to avoid a lot of extra code, I think I'm going to have everyone switch over to 2009 soon.
<komsas> godbyk: I'm in
<dutchie> this is one of the reasons I started doing that tonight
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> So let's start at the top.
<godbyk> Did it deteect your platform okay?
<komsas> yes
<godbyk> Good.  What does it say for installation scheme?
<godbyk> Does it say 'scheme-full'?
<komsas> full
<godbyk> good
<godbyk> press L and [Enter] so we can see the languages menu
<komsas> I'm in
<godbyk> What languages do you have installed
<godbyk> (I don't care about the documentation, just the top half)
<komsas> I can choose
<godbyk> Specifically, make sure that you have at least Lithuanian installed.
<komsas> For me only Lithuanian and english enough
<godbyk> (This will let us properly hyphenate Lithuanian words.)
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> So if both of those are checked, then press R to go back to the main menu
<godbyk> Do the directories listed look okay?
<komsas> http://paste.ubuntu.com/377052/
<komsas> I think ok
<godbyk> Those should work, yeah.
<komsas> so start installation?
<godbyk> Back at the main menu, make sure that at least the last 4 options are checked: create all format files, install doc tree, install source tree, and create symlinks.
<godbyk> If you prefer letterpaper to A4 paper, feel free to check that option as well.
<godbyk> Once that's done, you should be able to hit I and it'll install.
<godbyk> If you find errors as it goes along, feel free to ping me with them.
<komsas> thank godbyk now I jump to bed, tommorow I will ping u, bye
<godbyk> Once TeX Live 2009 is finished installing, you *should* be able to run 'make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf' and have it compile the manual.
<godbyk> Okay, sleep well.
<godbyk> And with that, I need to go shovel snow off my walk.  I'll be back in a bit.
<humphreybc> godbyk: GUI latex editors?
<dutchie> gedit?
<dutchie> gvim?
<humphreybc> okay so there are no apps actually designed for latex
<humphreybc> you know, like creating commands and stuff
<dutchie> there's lyx, but that has its own version of latex afaict
<dutchie> you can use the vim latex suite with gvim
<godbyk> humphreybc: there's kile (for kde), texmaker or something like that for gnome, there's texworks (not in the repository).
<godbyk> I'd avoid LyX as it translates from tex to lyx and back and makes things a little messier.
<humphreybc> okay cool, i've got a guy asking is all
<dutchie> !info texmaker
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> manualbot: ping
<manualbot> pong
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<dutchie> !ping
<dutchie> bug 522356
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 522356 in ubuntu-manual "LaTex-Formatting-Bug" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/522356
<dutchie> !info texmaker
<manualbot> dutchie: 'karmic' is not a valid distribution:
<dutchie> !info texmaker lenny
<manualbot> dutchie: 'lenny' is not a valid distribution:
<dutchie> !info texmaker lucid
<manualbot> dutchie: 'lucid' is not a valid distribution:
<dutchie> stuff that then
<dutchie> Installing [0975/2003, time/total: 03:54:57/08:53:19]: knuth [10137k]
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> not sure if I want an aging computer scientist on my laptop
<dutchie> especially if he's 10M
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> dutchie: I just pushed some more changes to quickshot
<humphreybc> added in draft windows up to step 9
<humphreybc> if you feel like doing some python, i'd very much appreciate it if you could link the window buttons so I can test them xD
<dutchie> link them up to what?
<humphreybc> each other
<humphreybc> so when you click next it closes that window and opens the next window
<humphreybc> like it would actually do
<humphreybc> just so I can get an idea of how the windows are actually rendered
<humphreybc> actually how do you make it go next but in it's own window...
<humphreybc> hm
 * dutchie has forgotten how to use quickly
<humphreybc> quickly glade
<humphreybc> quickly run
<humphreybc> quickly create ubuntu-project <name>
<humphreybc> i think that's about it lol
<dutchie> well, yeah
<dutchie> but where to put functions
<humphreybc> oh
<dutchie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek0909/QuicklyFun
<humphreybc> dutchie: maybe if you could link main to setup with the next button, and also the "cancel" button so that it closes it as examples, then I can just go off them to link up the rest
<dutchie> dutchie: I'm working on it :)
<humphreybc> awesome xD
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> looks like I'm going to have to completely refactor the glade files
<humphreybc> darn
<humphreybc> did i do something wrong? :P
<dutchie> I'm not sure if having loads of windows in one UI definition is the best thing to do
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-16
<dutchie> it's too late to be doing all this
<dutchie> I don't think tidying up all my folders was a very good idae
<dutchie> idea*
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> should i separate them
<dutchie> it's alright for you, it's not half past midnight where you are
<humphreybc> is there a quick way to separate them?
<dutchie> humphreybc: probably
<dutchie> cut and paste?
<humphreybc> heh okay
<humphreybc> i'll attempt that :)
<humphreybc> get some sleep!
<dutchie> good idea
<humphreybc> dutchie: you still here?
<humphreybc> hey godbyk i've created some new windows and things in quickshot and pushed. The cancel/close buttons actually work now too.
<humphreybc> On an unrelated note, have you had a chance to look into including the revision number in the copyright page?
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> ah, no, I haven't looked yet.
<godbyk> I'll give that a shot in a couple minutes, though.
<humphreybc> sweet
<godbyk> I think I'm going to irk everyone soon by making them all upgrade to TeX Live 2009.  :-)
<godbyk> It seems that bzr doesn't use the normal RCS keywords (like everyone else does).
<godbyk> so I'm doing it in a hackier way, but it'll work.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Revision info pushed.
<humphreybc> godbyk: sweet
<humphreybc> godbyk: are you planning on changing to tex live 2009?
<humphreybc> perhaps we could look at creating a PPA for the team with everything packaged for ubuntu to make it easy for translators/contributors etc to download
<godbyk> It seems that the glossary stuff in 2007 is antiquated (and the packages we want to use aren't in 2007), so we may have to update to 2009 for that.
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> okay
<godbyk> And since we're using 2009 for the translated stuff, it means I can remove some of the special, just-for-English code that's there and then it's all using the same code regardless of language.
<godbyk> So It'll simplify things on that front, too.
<godbyk> humphreybc: There is a PPA, but I don't know if it's at all complete: http://www.tug.org/texlive/debian.html
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> last updated 15/1/2010
<humphreybc> that's pretty good
<humphreybc> "TeX Live 2009 is now in Debian/unstable, and should transit to testing in a few days (2010-01-15)."
<humphreybc> oh no wait
<humphreybc> that's not ubuntu :P
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/~aelmahmoudy/+archive/tl2009
<humphreybc> you've already got an install script right? just add a couple of lines that add that PPA and then install the necessary packages... presuming that PPA has everything we need. If you could have it echo some stuff like "Installing PPA..." "Downloading necessary packages..." then that would be cool too so everyone knows what's going on while they wait for 500mb to download...
<godbyk> yeah, I saw the PPA, but it seems like it has a lot fewer packages than what's there for 2007.
<godbyk> (There are many more than 12 texlive-* packages in the Karmic repositories.)
<godbyk> Now, with 2009, you get a tlmgr program that grabs the latest LaTeX packages from the CTAN site.
<godbyk> So maybe they're going to rely on that from here on instead of packaging the LaTeX packages themselves.
<godbyk> I don't know.
<humphreybc> hmm oky
<humphreybc> when do we have to switch to 2009?
<godbyk> We'll have to switch before we start doing the glossary stuff.
<humphreybc> perhaps it's worth contacting "them" to find out what the best way is.... packaging ourselves in our own PPA (eek!) or using their tlmgr thing
<godbyk> You can switch now if you want.  It doesn't hurt anything.
<godbyk> I don't have time to package all of that myself.
<humphreybc> lol i know
<godbyk> It's pretty easy to install TL2009 using its own install scripts.
<godbyk> (See my previous email with the instructions.)
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> any way we can make that super easy?
<humphreybc> (i'm just thinking of people like wendy who haven't used ubuntu before etc)
<godbyk> I think the install-tl program is about as easy as it can be.
<godbyk> It autodetects everything.
<humphreybc> oh gnarly
<humphreybc> no problemo then
<godbyk> You just tell it 'go' and it goes.
<humphreybc> that sounds swell
<godbyk> Why don't you give it a try and let me know what part of the instructions could be clearer or elaborated on?
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> so just from that email?
<godbyk> yep
<humphreybc> some keywords for me to find it in gmail?
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> search for 'install-tl'
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> got it
<humphreybc> how big is 2009?
<humphreybc> (don't say "about 52 weeks!"
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> It'll tell you on the menu how much it wants to download.
<godbyk> I think for me, it was a couple gigs, 'cause I installed absolutely everything.
<humphreybc> oO
<humphreybc> that would take forever on our connection
<godbyk> Hey, *you're* the one who wanted to switch ISPs! <grin>
<humphreybc> lol well we'd be over our cap by now if i hadn't haha
<godbyk> You can skip installing the documentation.
<godbyk> That'll save a bit of space.
<godbyk> (Quite a bit, actually.)
<humphreybc> okay, well, i'll see what speed it goes at and if it's less than 20KB/s I'm ringing the ISP
<humphreybc> i'll make up some (half true) stuff about it's stopping me from doing my work
<godbyk> You *do* need to install the XeTeX/XeLaTeX engine, and you will need to install any languages you want to compile the translations for.
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> what's this, it's going really fast!
<humphreybc> like 700KB/s
<humphreybc> WOW
<humphreybc> I am amazed
 * humphreybc wants a big ubuntu poster or flag for his wall
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> typical, the wireless drops halfway thru latex install
<humphreybc> looks like it's going to pick up where it left off though which is good
<godbyk> humphreybc: How goes the install?
<humphreybc> oO it's done
<humphreybc> haven't looked at it till just now
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> so what's the command to make say, the spanish version?
<humphreybc> godbyk: benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~/Manual/ubuntu-manual$ make
<humphreybc> bzr version-info > revision.tex
<humphreybc> pdflatex main
<humphreybc> /bin/bash: pdflatex: command not found
<humphreybc> make: *** [main.pdf] Error 127
<godbyk> run the install-tl script again and make sure the 'create symlinks' option (last option listed) is checked.
<godbyk> (it shouldn't have to install or download anything again)
<godbyk> or, alternatively, add the bin dir to your PATH.
<humphreybc> what do I put as the "new value for binary directory?"
<godbyk> leave the default, probably.
<humphreybc> sweet
<godbyk> did that work?
<godbyk> if so, you can try running "make ubuntu-manual-es.pdf" for instance.
<humphreybc> I think it has to download another 2GB
<humphreybc> it did say "Disk space required: 2036mb" or something
<humphreybc> and it's downloading stuff
<godbyk> really?  hmm..
<humphreybc> yep
<godbyk> it should detect that you've already installed the stuff.
<godbyk> well, you could kill it, and make the symlinks yourself, I s'pose.
<godbyk> we should add a note to the instructions about telling the installer to create symlinks.
<godbyk> were there any other quirks or errors in the install instructions I wrote?
<humphreybc> hmm i don't think so
<humphreybc> i'll see if this works
<godbyk> What's it downloading? Everything?
<humphreybc> appears that way
<humphreybc> up to 280/2003 things, or mb, it doesn't say
<humphreybc> it says "Installing" so maybe it's not downloading but just installing... although it does pause for a bit on larger things
<humphreybc> it also has time/total - I guess the total is estimated. It's currently at 12:36/40:2
<humphreybc> 40:22*
<godbyk> Hmm.. weird.
<humphreybc> where did it install it the first time round?
<godbyk> In /usr/local/texlive/2009/ probably
<godbyk> (that's the default location for all its files)
<godbyk> might've been able to create the symlinks via tlmgr, too. I'm not very familiar with it yet.
<humphreybc> okay so there's 2.3GB in that directory
<humphreybc> and where is it installing stuff to now?
<humphreybc> heh i don't know what dutchie is doing with the planet but for some reason it never updates my feed automatically
<godbyk> same place, presumably.
<humphreybc> that was odd, pidgin just randomly crashed for no reason
<humphreybc> and it crashed again
<godbyk> nice
<godbyk> what irc client are you using?
<humphreybc> pidgin
<humphreybc> it usually works flawlessly
<humphreybc> but maybe i upset it somehow
<humphreybc> apparently texlive has 15 minutes left
<godbyk> ah, pidgin crashes randomly for me, too
<humphreybc> could be worse i guess
<humphreybc> could be using windows
<humphreybc> godbyk: looks like i'm in business with 2009
<humphreybc> how do you make a translated one again?
<humphreybc> lost the command after pidgin crashed
<godbyk> just run: make ubuntu-manual-LANG.pdf
<godbyk> where LANG is the same name as the .po file
<godbyk> (try es for spanish, for instance.)
<humphreybc> benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~/Manual/ubuntu-manual$ make ubuntu-manual-es.pdf
<humphreybc> po4a-translate --master-charset=utf8 -f latex -m main.tex -p po/es.po -l ubuntu-manual-es.tex -k 0
<humphreybc> po4a::tex: Can't read from file without having a filename
<humphreybc>  at /usr/bin/po4a-translate line 227
<humphreybc> make: *** [ubuntu-manual-es.tex] Error 9
<godbyk> um..
<godbyk> weird
<godbyk> hold on
<godbyk> nice
<godbyk> po4a doesn't like my revision stuff for some reason.
<godbyk> lemme see what it's problem is.
<godbyk> fixed it.
<godbyk> pushed.
<godbyk> now I have to fix some typos that others left behind.
<godbyk> (I swear no one tries to compile before they commit.)
<godbyk> humphreybc: try make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf
<godbyk> es has typos
<godbyk> de has typos
<godbyk> (different typos, even.)
<godbyk> I'm going to write a script to attempt to build all of the translations and whatever and put 'em on my site.
<godbyk> will also post errors.
<godbyk> is there an API for launchpad to create bugs against our translated manual?
<humphreybc> not sure
<humphreybc> make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf throws the same error, 9
<humphreybc> oh wait didn't see that you fixed it above
<humphreybc> i'll try again
<godbyk> yeah, do a pull and try again
<godbyk> know of any open source build servers?
<humphreybc> this seems to be more successful
<godbyk> I'm looking to set one up for our project.
<humphreybc> not off hand nope
<humphreybc> i get a couple of errors regarding "Gentium Book Basic"
<humphreybc> and Aksharyogini
<humphreybc> I guess i'm missing fonts
<godbyk> Install the ttf-sil-gentium and ttf-sil-gentium-basic packages.
<godbyk> right.
<humphreybc> also Gautami
<godbyk> well, install ttf-*  :-)
<humphreybc> i think
<humphreybc> haha okay
<godbyk> I'm going to restructure that bit of code, soon too.
<humphreybc> so they're just in the default repos?
<godbyk> yeah, I think all the fonts I'm using so far, are.
<godbyk> well, maybe not Gautami.
<godbyk> I think that's a MS Windows font.
<humphreybc> i'm getting loads of errors
<humphreybc> ! \textfont 0 is undefined (character u).
<humphreybc> \Url@FormatString ...\Url@String \UrlRight \m@th $
<humphreybc> but replace character u with every single character ever
<humphreybc> so overall didn't build
<humphreybc> i'll try installing fonts
<godbyk> yeah, install fonts first, then try it again.
<humphreybc> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<humphreybc>   ttf-kochi-gothic: Conflicts: ttf-kochi-gothic-naga10
<humphreybc>   ttf-kochi-gothic-naga10: Conflicts: ttf-kochi-gothic
<humphreybc>   ttf-kochi-mincho: Conflicts: ttf-kochi-mincho-naga10
<humphreybc>   ttf-kochi-mincho-naga10: Conflicts: ttf-kochi-mincho
<humphreybc> good times all round haha
<godbyk> nice.
<godbyk> okay, well, look in the ubuntu-manual.cls file
<godbyk> there will be a bunch of \setmainfont lines with comments telling you where I got the fonts from.
<humphreybc> hmm fun
<humphreybc> so i need to go to all these sites and download them?
<godbyk> at the moment, yeah.
<godbyk> or you can wait 'til I restructure that bit.. then you'll only need those fonts if you want to compile those translations.
<humphreybc> okay i'll install the ones i can find in the repos
<humphreybc> and other than that just wait i think :)
<humphreybc> pretty shattered, been up since about 7am today
<humphreybc> my brain has stopped working properly
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> nice
<humphreybc> half past 8 and i'm almost falling asleep on my laptop!
<humphreybc> a build server would be cool
<humphreybc> if you need somewhere to host stuff my server has a bit of space
<humphreybc> i'm getting another 500GB HDD for it next week
<godbyk> I've got (allegedly) unlimited space and bandwidth.
<godbyk> Though I've never pushed it. :-)
<humphreybc> oh really? who are you with?
<humphreybc> does that cost a lot per month?
<godbyk> Dreamhost: http://www.dreamhost.com/
<godbyk> Costs ~$8 a month, I think.
<humphreybc> wow
<humphreybc> that's impressive
<humphreybc> what's with the dude on the front page? http://www.dreamhost.com/hosting.html
<humphreybc> does he actually run it!?
<humphreybc> he must be like 13
<humphreybc> they do everything for so cheap... far out... the NZ costs are at least 1000x more expensive
<godbyk> heh
<humphreybc> I think for $180 a month you get something like 5GB with 10GB of bandwidth or something
<humphreybc> http://www.freeparking.co.nz/hosting
<humphreybc> correction 250mb of space, 10GB bandwidth for $150 a year
<humphreybc> oh it's a year
<godbyk> Here's what "unlimited" means: http://www.dreamhost.com/unlimited.html
<humphreybc> that's not as bad but still... lol
<humphreybc> i still want to know who the kid is
<godbyk> Stock photo, I'm guessing.
<humphreybc> they're rather informal
<humphreybc> "Actually, forÂ you,Â my dear Legitimate Website Owner, itÂ isÂ unlimited."
<humphreybc> "This whole page is just to announce to the <.1% of people who want to try and run free porn affiliate sites or anime video trading forums or host pirated rips of The Dark Knight on DreamHost thatÂ we're not having any."
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> Oh, yeah, they have character!
<humphreybc> they do
<godbyk> You should see the monthly newsletters.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> $8 is so cheap
<humphreybc> how do they make their money?
<godbyk> Volume?
<humphreybc> http://www.dreamhost.com/aboutus-profiles.html
<humphreybc> they put photos up of them as a kid, what the hell lol
<godbyk> ha! nice.
<godbyk> So it *is* Mike S.
<humphreybc> it is so weird but cool
<godbyk> Their blog has more cheekiness: http://blog.dreamhost.com/
<humphreybc> LOL read "What's the craziest thing you've ever seen while working at DreamHost?"
<humphreybc> http://www.dreamhost.com/profile-dallask.html
<humphreybc> http://www.dreamhost.com/profile-jeremyk.html
<humphreybc> "What do you do at DreamHost?"
<humphreybc> "I make music with the fans of the servers. Ok, not really. But I do try to bring all of the servers into harmony and keep them there!"
<godbyk> nice
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> the ipad giveaway thing
<humphreybc> "Okay, itâs going to beÂ 20Â of the $499 models (16G wifi-only) given away. Also note: if you donât live in the US but give us a US mailing address when we contact you after you win, well, how are we going to know the difference?"
<humphreybc> lol what: http://blog.dreamhost.com/2010/01/18/happy-new-year-zealand/
<humphreybc> oh cool they went to LCA
<humphreybc> what an odd company
<humphreybc> they're even stranger than google
<humphreybc> i wonder how many customers they have
<godbyk> I'm not sure, but a ton.
<humphreybc> LOL http://techcrunch.com/2008/01/15/dreamhost-overbills-customers-75-million-uses-homer-simpson-to-deliver-apology/
<humphreybc> i think that's how i'd run a business
<humphreybc> i've always had this grand scheme of my first business modelled after google with cool furniture and crazy staff schemes
<humphreybc> these guys are probably all just kids at heart, hence the child photos
<humphreybc> but i love their laid back attitude about 7.5 million bucks. just like "whoops."
<godbyk> Yeah, they're pretty crazy.  I like 'em.
<godbyk> http://www.dreamhost.com/limited-time-sale-going-on-now.html
<humphreybc> too bad i don't need their services at the moment, otherwise i'd sign up lol
<humphreybc> another great service I use is Weebly
<humphreybc> they're really good guys
<humphreybc> I use them for my website (no I didn't make it myself, but I could have) because it's reliable, fast, there is no limit on data or bandwidth and it's like $30 a year or something which is perfectly reasonable
<humphreybc> plus it's sooo easy to maintain
<humphreybc> and their customer support is excellent. I emailed them to suggest a feature and I got the CEO reply and say he'll work on in personally. We had a chat about Ubuntu too because he noticed my signature
<godbyk> Cool
<humphreybc> I love IT... it's so... different
<humphreybc> work from home/crazy companies/tonnes of creativity/usually friendly people
<humphreybc> i could never see myself as a lawyer or accountant :O
<godbyk> Same here.  I much prefer the relaxed environments.
<godbyk> I'm not a fan of wearing ties or suits.
<humphreybc> yeah me neither
<humphreybc> godbyk: what would be the easiest way for me to see the other windows in quickshot?
<humphreybc> just to test out the UI
<godbyk> Hmm. Not sure.  Can you call window.show() or something?
<godbyk> (where 'window' is the var that points to that window)
<humphreybc> well i'm looking in the quickshot python file and i'm a bit lost
<humphreybc> i don't know any python at all
<humphreybc> i do know a bit of java but i've forgotten most of that
<humphreybc> i just want glade to render a window for me, or to call it from the CLI?
<godbyk> I haven't done any GUI programming in Python, so I'm not sure.  Sorry.
<humphreybc> that's all good
<godbyk> I'm setting up buildbot.
<humphreybc> oh yes?
<godbyk> slowly. :-)
<humphreybc> nice, so it's a server based thing that takes latex imports and builds PDFs, right?
<godbyk> Well, the buildbot will build anything you tell it how to build.
<godbyk> in this case, I'll have it pull our manual out of bzr, then compile each translation, and generate a report about what worked, what failed, etc.
<ubuntujenkins> what theme was used to take the quickshot screen shot?
<godbyk> That's a question for humphreybc.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: it's this: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/02/x-ivi-human-deluxe-proposed-lucid-theme.html
<humphreybc> but with lucidity borders
<humphreybc> or homosapien borders... i'll check hold up
<humphreybc> if you think the windows look nice, check out the menus and panel xD
<humphreybc> Lucidity window borders
<ubuntujenkins> thanks i will, I am quite happy to test quickshot as and when you need more tester I have a very limited python knowledge so can't help on that front.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: sure, well at the moment there is nothing to test but soon there will be :D
<ubuntujenkins> I have been having a sneky peak at the bzr branch
<ubuntujenkins> It looks good
<humphreybc> sure go for it, you want me to add you to the dev team?
 * humphreybc buzz has actually been useful - had a person who knows python express interest in helping with quickshot!!
<ubuntujenkins> feel free to add me, I shall join the luanchpad group I am going to follow closely so that I can understand how to make a program
<humphreybc> what's your launchpad username?
<ubuntujenkins> luke jennings
<humphreybc> cool
<ubuntujenkins> just joined the quickshot lp page
<humphreybc> yup i'm just loading the page to confirm you
<humphreybc> launchpad is so slow
<ubuntujenkins> thanks :)
<humphreybc> done
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<TommyBrunn> Hey humphreybc
<humphreybc> gidday!
<TommyBrunn> I take it you're Benjamin?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> humphreybc is my nick for pretty much everything
<TommyBrunn> I see.
<humphreybc> ubuntu forums, wiki, launchpad, IRC, skype, msn, gmail etc etc
<TommyBrunn> Anyway, I'm going to take a look at Quickshot later today
<humphreybc> it's just my last name with my initials :)
<humphreybc> awesome, sounds great!
<TommyBrunn> I can't promise much though. I'm afraid I'm terribly rusty.
<humphreybc> I created it using Quickly, so you'll have to install quickly first to run it - or you could probably just run the python file
<TommyBrunn> My uni is forcing me to use horrible languages such as Java and C#, rather than Python.
<humphreybc> hehe same at my uni
<humphreybc> although I'm doing a python paper this semester
<humphreybc> last year I did java
<humphreybc> what year are you?
<TommyBrunn> First year.
<humphreybc> oh cool, i'm going to be second this year
<humphreybc> I'm not of much use regarding python at the moment, but I am getting kinda good at Glade
<TommyBrunn> I'm thinking about doing the same thing as you did, and switching over to comp sci instead. The program I'm currently in is a complete joke in many aspects.
<TommyBrunn> Quickly uses glade and gtkbuilder for the interface, right?
<TommyBrunn> I've never used Quickly before, but I do have some experience with Glade.
<humphreybc> mmm, well for my uni, the software engineering major had a whole YEAR of commerce papers... dry, boring, commerce papers... so I changed to comp sci, got rid of the boringness, get to do more programming and chop a year off my degree
<humphreybc> yep that's correct
<humphreybc> quickly basically just creates a project off a template
<humphreybc> this is the first time i've used it too, so I'm sort of walking blind if you will
<humphreybc> heh... i haven't used quickly, python or glade before... yet the program uses all three tools. O.o
<TommyBrunn> Alright. I'll give it a shot in a bit. I'm afraid my brain wonÃ¤
<TommyBrunn> *won't be of much use until I've had a shower
<humphreybc> so basically, if you want to take a look at it, what i'd quite like it to do just for this week is to get the "next" buttons working so they actually go to the next window
<humphreybc> that way I can test out the other UI windows that I've created in glade
<TommyBrunn> I'll have a look once I get back.
<TommyBrunn> bbl
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> i may not be here when you get back, it's 10pm here and i have an exam tomorrow so should probably get some shut-eye
<ubuntujenkins> good luck with the exam
<humphreybc> haha ubuntujenkins, i'll need it, i haven't been to any lectures or anything
<humphreybc> i'll need a LOT of luck!
<humphreybc> godbyk: sorry for late reply, that sounds awesome
<ubuntujenkins> have a LOT of luck
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: let me know how you go with Quickshot, email me: humphreybc@gmail.com
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: I'll check my emails tomorrow sometime before I head away on holiday and answer any questions you have - other than that, just go nuts! The specification and workflow layout is on the wiki for Quickshot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: In case you're still here, maybe you should add me to the launchpad dev team.
<humphreybc> yep i am here
<humphreybc> what's your lp username?
<humphreybc> omg dutchie
<humphreybc> are you just waking up and i'm still here?
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: My lp username is reklamnevon, I believe.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> i think you're just tommy brunn
<humphreybc> i added you
<TommyBrunn> Oh yeah, would you look at that. Three new fancy icons on my profile.
<TommyBrunn> If I go ahead and make something awesome of this, how would I commit those changes back to trunk? Do I make a new branch and then let you merge that into trunk, or do I just push it there myself?
<humphreybc> nope just push to the main one
<humphreybc> not enough people to bother with merges at the moment
<humphreybc> just bzr add, bzr diff, bzr commit -m "Your changes", bzr push lp:quickshot
<humphreybc> (in that order)
<humphreybc> oh and don't forget to pull first in case I have made changes
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: if you've got some time, it would be really helpful if you could go through your chapter and put in the /screenshotTODO{text} commands wherever you want a screenshot
<ubuntujenkins> I will do in the bits I have written not I will have thought about what screen shots are needed
<humphreybc> awesome thanks
<humphreybc> I just emailed the ML with some more info
<ubuntujenkins> ignore the "not" that has got to be the worst sentence Ever written! I will see where I would like them
<ubuntujenkins> just got it :)
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: Your friendly neighborhood Python coder has gotten the basic next buttons to work. [party]
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: awesome!
<humphreybc> push push and i'll have a look :D
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Will do.
 * ubuntujenkins gets ready to pull
<TommyBrunn> Should be pushed now
<TommyBrunn> Note that when you click next it'll just run through a lot of the windows really quickly, as it doesn't actually do anything yet.
<TommyBrunn> Normally content would be downloaded, user accounts would be created, and stuff like that.
<humphreybc> cool
<TommyBrunn> For now it just prints something to the terminal.
<ubuntujenkins> cool TommyBrunn which file is that funtionality of that done in?
<TommyBrunn> quickshot/bin/quickshot
<TommyBrunn> The method called on_next_1_clicked() is the callback from the first next button.
<TommyBrunn> Anything in that method is run when the button is clicked.
<ubuntujenkins> ok cool I think it might be over my head might need to know more python. :)
<TommyBrunn> It took me some time to get back into this whole signal-callback thing. I haven't been coding Python for over 6 months, and the only graphical thing I've done in that time is some Lua scripting and some Java swing development.
<TommyBrunn> But it's not that complicated once you get into it.
<TommyBrunn> Coffee helps.
<TommyBrunn> Which is why I'm going to go fetch a cup right now.
<ubuntujenkins> I can do bits of bash/shell and matlab I started learning python a while ago and ran out of time due to my course . but I have no work at the moment so free time!
<humphreybc> wicked, yeah i can do java and html and stuff but python is new to me. soon i will be a python whizz though, i bought a python book and am doing a python paper this semester at uni.. plus writing a python program! woo! python!
<ubuntujenkins> is the book any good? which one is it
<TommyBrunn> I would recommend Beginning Python by Magnus Lie Hetland. It has a lot of practical examples in it. The only bad thing I can say about it is that it doesn't use gtkbuilder for any of its graphical parts.
<TommyBrunn> I think it uses Tkinter.
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: could you make it so that it goes from window to window in this order: main > usersetup > login > newuserwelcome > screenshotinfo > capture?
<humphreybc> I've got the "Python visual quickstart guide second edition" by Toby Donaldson
<TommyBrunn> It does. It's just that it doesn't do anything, so you never see the windows because they appear and disappear so fast.
<humphreybc> ah okay
<humphreybc> could you make it so that it goes so that we can actually see the other windows, or perhaps even just a delay of 10 seconds on the windows without buttons
<humphreybc> just so i can test the UI
<TommyBrunn> Sure.
<humphreybc> awesome :)
<humphreybc> would you know how to have the content in the same window?
<humphreybc> instead of spawning new ones
<humphreybc> so main > usersetup > login should all be in one window instance
<humphreybc> like a real program
<ubuntujenkins> my library doesn't have it :(
<humphreybc> and then newuserwelcome would spawn a new window
<humphreybc> (because the app starts up again in the other user account)
<humphreybc> and then from then on it's all in one window too
<ubuntujenkins> I have a heat transfer lab to go to night humphrey
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: it's fairly new, written last year i think
<humphreybc> okay night
<ubuntujenkins> by TommyBrunn thanks
<ubuntujenkins> *bye
<TommyBrunn> Hmm... I'm having some problems here with the sleep command. It's sleeping alright, but after it has slept it spawns all the windows at once. Not quite what i had in mind...
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> you can ask for help in #ubuntu-app-devel if you want
<TommyBrunn> I believe that in order to have the stuff in the same window, you would need to have a single window and then substitute the content in the program. Though I'm not sure, as I haven't used glade that much.
<humphreybc> or #pygtk on irc.gnome.org
<humphreybc> yeah i think that's what martin says
<humphreybc> well feel free to leave me a list of stuff to do
<humphreybc> and i'll try my best to work it out and do it for you :)
<TommyBrunn> Honestly though, I think that at this point it would probably be easier and faster for us to have each "view" be a different window - even if it isn't quite as pretty.
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> that's cool
<humphreybc> dutchie godbyk: http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/groundcontrol-1-5-â-custom-scripts-and-bug-fixes/
<humphreybc> dutchie godbyk: we want to take advantage of these "buttons" that martin talks about. (It's actually something that I suggested) and so basically we want make release to build the PDF. All it has to do is run make show
<humphreybc> actually
<humphreybc> i'll do that now
<TommyBrunn> Got it working now. You need to press a button in the terminal you're running it from, in order to proceed to the next window.
<TommyBrunn> I just realized, however, that I missed a tiny thingy. I'll push once I've got that sorted.
<humphreybc> awesome
<TommyBrunn> Pushed.
<TommyBrunn> However, something struck me as odd, or quite possibly impossible. Once the user account has been created, it wouldn't really be possible to switch sessions and still have Quickshot running in the same state in the new session.
<TommyBrunn> What I suppose you could do is to instruct the user to start quickshot from that other session, and have the program check the user account to see if it's called quickshot - and if so, skip the whole creation of a user account, and just skip ahead to the screenshot part.
<humphreybc> no i know, we have to start quickshot again
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> or just set it up so that when it creates the user "quickshot" it also creates a startup entry for quickshot
<TommyBrunn> But can an application be installed globally?
<humphreybc> i think it should be installed globally.
<humphreybc> if not, we can install it on the new user as well :)
<humphreybc> all of that will happen when it sets up the new user
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, I guess so.
<humphreybc> it might be a bit hackish
<humphreybc> but it should work
<TommyBrunn> Hackish is how I roll. :P
<humphreybc> it's not often that programs are actually required to make a new user :D
<TommyBrunn> What would be very helpful, if you have the time, would be to create a branch for the screenshots, so I can see if I can get the downloading and parsing of that set up.
<humphreybc> dutchie godbyk i've created a .gcfunctions file that points towards two new scripts i've made, make_pdf.sh and make_clean.sh that just run those commands. Ground Control 1.5 should see the .gcfunctions file and create the buttons, but I haven't tested it yet because I'm still waiting for Martin to package 1.5 for karmic.
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> i'll do that tomorrow
<TommyBrunn> Alright.
<humphreybc> if i have time :)
<godbyk> gotcha
<TommyBrunn> Anything else I can do today, other than small UI fixes?
<humphreybc> not really, just go ahead and have a play
<humphreybc> small UI fixes could be good :)
<TommyBrunn> (I always get really exited when I first become involved with a project. Expect my level of commitment to gradually decrease with time. :P)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> that's oaky
<humphreybc> okay*
<godbyk> humphreybc: Can't you just have it run 'make' without the shell script?
<humphreybc> i don't think so because ground control creates the buttons that point to a script
<humphreybc> i'm just going to test it now
<humphreybc> this is quite cool because it means contributors don't have to use the CLI for anything for our project
<humphreybc> unless they want to do some fancy shit
<humphreybc> so much for my early night :D
<komsas> godbyk: I get error that I don't have AksharYogini font, do you know package which can solve this?
<komsas> http://paste.ubuntu.com/377507/
<godbyk> does it say in the ubuntu-manual.cls file?
<komsas> yes, there is one line "\newfontfamily\devanagarifont[]{Aksharyogini}% from ttf-FIXME"
<godbyk> humphreybc: Try ttf-devanagari-fonts
<godbyk> Er, sorry, komsas: apt-get install ttf-devanagari-fonts
<godbyk> (humphreybc was asking about it earlier, too.)
<komsas> he
<humphreybc> hmm godbyk i'm just pushing through the changes that should make ground control work with the buttons but it hasn't
<komsas> I'm not only one with problems :)
<godbyk> komsas: Yeah, I'm still playing with a ton of fonts, so that bit is in flux.
<komsas> "\button{forward}" - I don't have experience with latex, can I translate word "forward"?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> anything in braces or in front of a backslash is a command and doesn't need to be translated
<godbyk> komsas: Don't translate button, but do translate forward.
<godbyk> The translation should match whatever the label of the forward button is in that situation.
<humphreybc> oh yeah of course
<humphreybc> oops
<humphreybc> i think i need some sleep
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> humphreybc: no problem.
<godbyk> I think I'm going to head to bed myself.
<godbyk> It's 5:22 a.m. here.
<humphreybc> what time is it at yours?
<humphreybc> eeek!
<godbyk> (I'm on a weird schedule where I go to sleep early in the morning and wake up early/mid afternoon.)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> suits my timezone which is good
<godbyk> (One of the perks to being unemployed, I s'pose.)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> if you could just remind everyone when you see each person to do two things
<TommyBrunn> I'm making some serious progress here. I've already been able to check for an existing user account, and if it doesn't exist, make one.
<humphreybc> 1) confirm 48 hour times ASAP
<humphreybc> 2) insert screenshot TODOs all over the place
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: that's awesome!
<humphreybc> Ground Control is actually quite usable now btw guys
<humphreybc> it's not crashing nautilus as much and it's a lot quicker
<godbyk> Where can we snag the latest version?
<humphreybc> btw, the Lucid universe freeze is tomorrow
<humphreybc> godbyk: one sec i'll find the ppa
<humphreybc> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:doctormo/groundcontrol
<humphreybc> sudo apt-get install groundcontrol
<humphreybc> that's ppa: doctormo/groundcontrol
<humphreybc> with no space
<humphreybc> otherwise it activates a smiley face
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol
<humphreybc> :D
<humphreybc> test it out on our branch, in theory the buttons should be working but they're not
<humphreybc> godbyk: in case you haven't already figured it out, I want our project to be as accessible to contributors as possible... so I want to get all new people using Ground Control and I want these buttons working to make the pdf and also make clean
<humphreybc> that way we attract a whole new base of potential contributors who don't like the command line :D
<humphreybc> even though it is only running a couple of commands
<godbyk> does the latest repository version of groundcontrol support the buttons? or is it not in the repos yet?
<humphreybc> yep it does
<humphreybc> it should do
<humphreybc> see martin's post that i linked to earlier
<humphreybc> i'm pretty sure i've done everything right
<humphreybc> but just have a look to make sure
<godbyk> there's code in there that references the .gcfunctions file
<godbyk> trying to see where I can find logs of errors/warnings from gc
<TommyBrunn> What's the "Help me figure this out or I will shoot myself" Python IRC channel?
<humphreybc> #ubuntu-app-devel on irc.freenode.net or #pygtk on irc.gnome.org
<humphreybc> or ubuntu forums :)
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: I think you just add 'import writeitforme' and you're done
<TommyBrunn> Oh, so that's why it wasn't working!
<TommyBrunn> I'll give that module a shot.
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: before you push remember to pull, i've committed two revisions since you last pulled
<humphreybc> (for quickshot)
<TommyBrunn> Will do.
<humphreybc> i wonder if we need another IRC channel for quickshot....
<humphreybc> lol
<TommyBrunn> I have a feeling that it would be a quite empty channel.
<godbyk> no warnings in the log file about the buttons.
<godbyk> I'll be right back.
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: you'd be right haha
<humphreybc> right i'm going to sleep, night all!
<TommyBrunn> Night!
<humphreybc> have fun with quickshot xD
<thorwil> does inkscape embed fonts in PDF exports?
<thorwil> seems like it doesn't. https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/37620
<TommyBrunn> Too bad Benjamin went to bed just now. Some guy over at ubuntu-app-devel had a great idea, that would be our job about a gazillion times easier.
<TommyBrunn> Instead of creating a new user account, why not just have the user log in to a guest account and run quickshot from there.
<dutchie> that was me
<godbyk> back
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: I brought that up with humphreybc earlier, and he shot it down.  I can't remember why.  I think because the guest account doesn't have enough permissions or something.
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Oh well, I've already gotten the user account creation working, so it should be fine.
<TommyBrunn> I had forgotten how awesome Python is.
<godbyk> Frakking groundcontrol.
<godbyk> Didn't do what I told it to.
<godbyk> I told it to ignore the 'new' files it say, but oh no.. it decided to commit them anyway.
<godbyk> fixed now.
<thorwil> so i found out the hard way that converting text to path in inkscape before saving to pdf is safer than just checking the convert checkbox on export
<godbyk> thorwil: Nice!
<godbyk> Do the transparent bits look nicer now?
<godbyk> Sorry.. should've phrased that differently:
<godbyk> Did you also figure out how to make the semi-transparent bits look nice during conversion to PDF?
<TommyBrunn> It just occurred to me that it's probably not a very good idea to have a default password on the created account. Seems like quite a security issue, if you ask me. Wouldn't it be better to ask the user for a password?
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: If you wanted to be somewhat sneaky, you could copy the user's hashed password and use their same password for the new account.
<godbyk> But that opens a small security risk in that there are two accounts using the same password.
<TommyBrunn> Yes. I think that if the user is intent on using the same password, he or she would just have to enter the same password. Either way, it's better than having a password that is known to the world.
<godbyk> So instead of having to guess your username *and* password, I can (perhaps, if the program is super popular) assume that there's a quickshot user and then just test against the passwords.
<godbyk> Agreed.
<thorwil> godbyk: nope, all about fonts. check http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/font_test_sans_conve-20100216121920-clj4bpv5zzzqe172-1/font_test_sans_converted.pdf
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> thorwil: When you get some more of that spare time, do you want to try to get inkscape to deal with the transparency or gradients or whatever its problem is with the cover page?  (See the lynx's nose, for instance.)
<thorwil> godbyk: i'll deal with it once the same problems arive with a design that might be the final
<godbyk> thorwil: Fair enough.
<godbyk> Okay, I'm off to bed.  (It's 7 a.m. here.)
 * dutchie wonders what the ebong latex package does
<ubuntujenkins> its a strange game of pong :P
<dutchie> \o/ TL 2009 is installed
<ubuntujenkins> does it work though?
<dutchie> yep
<ubuntujenkins> cool I might have to have a go just want to see what it looks like in other languages
<dutchie> it takes a while
<dutchie> it's about a 2.5G download
<ubuntujenkins> thats fine about half an hour
<ubuntujenkins> unistall everything in synaptic right?
<dutchie> yep
<ubuntujenkins> I have the 2009 set in lucid, I think I will as god bk before I start though
<dutchie> if you've got it in lucid, surely just installing texlive-full should do the trick
 * ubuntujenkins tries
 * dutchie tries building a localised version
<dutchie> godbyk: ping
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie I get an error that looks similar to ko msas had yesterday.
<dutchie> fonts?
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<dutchie> same here
<ubuntujenkins> I am reading yesterdays logs
<TommyBrunn> Anyone have Benjamin's email address? He gave it to me, but I promptly forgot it, as always.
<TommyBrunn> Nevermind, found it on Launchpad.
<ubuntujenkins> komsas did you fix your problem yesterday? dut chie and I are trying to compile it in other languages
<komsas> yes, but now I need more fonts.
<ubuntujenkins> I have a font error as well we shall have to ask god byk
<komsas> what kind of font u need?
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/377806/ is the error
<cjohnston> Has the schedule for the 48 hours thing been finalized?
<dutchie> not yet
<dutchie> am I being poked to do so?
<cjohnston> I'm wanting to add it to the calendar.. so the sooner the better
<dutchie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours is what we have so far
<komsas> ubuntujenkins: my error like yours
<cjohnston> dutchie: when you do get it finalized, ping me and ill put it on the calendar
<ubuntujenkins> I couldn't find your error to compare
<dutchie> cjohnston: sure
<cjohnston> ty
<komsas> http://paste.ubuntu.com/377810/ ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> thanks komas I think I might have found the package to fix it
<ubuntujenkins> nope no luck
<komsas> I don't think that we need Gautami font, http://www.microsoft.com/typography/Fonts/family.aspx?FID=238 I commened that lines where is it.
<ubuntujenkins> komsas did commenting that line mean that iti compiles?
<ubuntujenkins> *it
<komsas> no, it means that make will skip that line.
<ubuntujenkins> does that create another error then? I can't solve it, there are so many packages that it could be.
<komsas> yes I get another errors, but I commented that lines with unnecessary fonts. Now make works smoothly.
<godbyk> dutchie: pong
<godbyk> (Haven't read the backlog yet, though)
<dutchie> godbyk: fonts are b0rk3d
<dutchie> for me, komsas and ubuntujenkins
<dutchie> all on 2009
<ubuntujenkins> I am using lucid so have 2009 by  already
<godbyk> dutchie: fonts aren't borked, you just don't have all of 'em installed. :-)
<dutchie> well, yeah
<godbyk> for the time being, you can play around by commenting out all the fonts that aren't required for the specific language you're compiling.
<godbyk> I'm going to restructure that code a bit so that you don't have to have *all* the fonts installed -- just the ones needed for the language you're compiling.
<godbyk> Until then, you'll have to comment them out (or install the fonts).
<ubuntujenkins> can you give a list of the fonts? If you can't it doesn't matter I am just doing it to see what my writing looks like in other languages.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: The fonts are listed in the ubuntu-manual.cls file.  See the lines starting with \newfontfamily.
<godbyk> It also tells you where I found each of the fonts (what package or website).
<godbyk> To further make your lives difficult, I haven't settled on any of the fonts yet either. :-)
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks godbyk I will have a look
<ubuntujenkins> night
<godbyk> hey, dutchie..  am I allowed to directly edit the po/*.po files?
<godbyk> some of them have typos that prevent latex from compiling the doc.
<dutchie> godbyk: if you avoid breaking them and angering the translators
<godbyk> dutchie: heh.. I'll try.
<godbyk> ah, man.  we should've had these training sessions before people started translating..
<godbyk> some of them have translated the LaTeX commands (like \button, \application, etc.)
<dutchie> do you want me to cover that?
<dutchie> I hadn't been expecting to tbh
<dutchie> I was going to go fairly nuts-and-bolts
<godbyk> Well, I'm wondering what you, Ilya, and Jamin are going to be covering (and what I'm going to be left with).
<godbyk> Basically, I need someone to let me know what they want me to cover and what others will be covering. :-)
<dutchie> personally, I was going to say this is a .pot file, this a .po file, this is how you translate, and this is how I integrate it
<dutchie> hi humphreybc
<godbyk> dutchie: gotcha.
<godbyk> I was going to cover what latex code looks like and the specific commands we have for our manual.
<humphreybc> hey dutchie
<dutchie> should be able to stretch that out over an hour
<humphreybc> just checking in real quickly before i catch my flight
<godbyk> and make some notes for translators -- what to translate, what to leave as-is.
<dutchie> humphreybc: now sign off and chill out
<dutchie> humphreybc: I hope you left your laptop at home
<humphreybc> dutchie: i'm taking it with me, but only because i'll be at home after i go on holiday
<humphreybc> so inadvertantly... i'll try not to use it xD
<humphreybc> dutchie godbyk and Ilya, you guys are in charge, have fun!
<dutchie> oh no, responsibility
<dutchie> :(
<dutchie> I think I should go to bed
<godbyk> w00t!  party time!
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> also when the times are confirmed, someone tell #ubuntu-classroom-backstage
<humphreybc> and email the learning team ML
<humphreybc> laters!
<dutchie> night
<godbyk> dutchie: night.
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-17
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, lernid is pretty nifty
<IlyaHaykinson> too bad it wasn't written in Mono, so it could run on Windows and Mac boxes too
<TommyBrunn> Good news everyone! *imitates professor Farnsworth* I've just recieved word from my university, and they have agreed to let me count my work on Quickshot as a university course, meaning that I can dedicate more of my time to the project, and get university credits for it at the same time! :D
<TommyBrunn> Wow, there's a lot of people coming and going, but no one is talking .:8
<TommyBrunn> *:(
<TommyBrunn> Hey, d0od, aren't you the OMG! Ubuntu! guy?
<d0od> I am indeed
<TommyBrunn> Cool. Are you involved in the Ubuntu Manual project?
<d0od> I intended to be... i kinda just "promote" it etc now
<TommyBrunn> I see. I only just became involved myself. Well, I'm not part of the actual writing. I'm working on Quickshot, to semi-automate the taking of screenshots in multiple languages.
<d0od> I read that on Buzz. Which makes me sound like a stalker... but i follow you and Humphrey
<d0od> I've yet to get QuickShot to run, but it's a great little project.
<TommyBrunn> Well there's not much to run yet.
<TommyBrunn> So far all it does is create a new user account (if one does not already exist).
<TommyBrunn> But I just now recieved approval from my university to count this project as a university course, which means I'll have more time to work on it.
<TommyBrunn> Which is great.
<d0od> That's rad!
<TommyBrunn> Indeed. It might even allow me to drop one of the useless, boring and horribly depressing business courses that I would otherwise have to take. :p
<d0od> Business modules are pretty much hell incarnate! I had to do some at uni and count them as some of the biggest waste of my life so far...
<ubuntujenkins> business modules suck
<TommyBrunn> Thank the heavens! I just found out that this project gives me enough credit to be able to quit that business course I was talking about.
<ubuntujenkins> wooo thats great. In quick shot when you click the login button you get the login screen you still have to choose the user and enter the password though. Are we aiming to automatically choose the user so they only have to enter the password?
<TommyBrunn> Not really. I was going to bring it up with Benjamin once he gets back. Here's what I'm thinking:
<TommyBrunn> 1. Check if the user account Quickshot exists and the user is logged into it.
<TommyBrunn> 2a: If not, create the account and then tell the user to log into the Quickshot account.
<TommyBrunn> 2b: If it does exist and the user is logged into it, skip directly to the screenshot taking part.
<TommyBrunn> As I see it, there's no smooth way to simply "switch over" to the Quickshot account.
<TommyBrunn> So this is probably the easiest way
<ubuntujenkins> ok sounds good. I can get the login screen apearing when they click the login window, the user has to login and I know how to get quickly to relaunch
<ubuntujenkins> *button not window *quickshot not quickly
<TommyBrunn> Could you refrase that? I'm not quite sure I follow you.
<ubuntujenkins> Quickshot creates/check for account
<ubuntujenkins> this screen appears http://imagebin.org/85193 and I can make login button go to the user list that you see when you login
<ubuntujenkins> the user chooses quickly and then types in the password
<ubuntujenkins> *quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> I can then make quickshot load when they login
<TommyBrunn> Oh, that's great. How would you do that?
<ubuntujenkins> making it  autostart is done by adding a line to the end of the quickshot users .profile file. cureently testing with firefox about to try with quickshot
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Give it a shot. How about starting a new session by pressing "login"?
<ubuntujenkins> I don't think it is possible, thats what i started with, I will keep looking into it.
<ubuntujenkins> when we create a user can we create an auto login without password user? there is now a tickbox for it in lucid
<TommyBrunn> Creating a password-less user wouldn't be a very good idea. Either it wouldn't have the privileges needed, or it would be a security risk.
<ubuntujenkins> not password less. In lucid the user can login without typing their password
<ubuntujenkins> user add keeps crashing but that was the case a few weeks ago
<TommyBrunn> Huh? User add keeps crashing? What are you talking about?
<ubuntujenkins> go system>aministration>user and groups and try and add a user
<ubuntujenkins> i asume you are in lucid
<TommyBrunn> Oh, I see. I just use: sudo useradd -m -p ENCRYPTED_PASSWORD USERNAME
<ubuntujenkins> I do use the command line way as well, I shall keep trying to get it working
<ubuntujenkins> Tommy Brunn, how do i return the login name of the current user?
<TommyBrunn> Not sure. I haven't looked into it yet.
<ubuntujenkins> ok cool working on it now. The only way I can add the lines to the end of .profile is to change the file permissions, they get changed back but is that to much of a security risk?
<TommyBrunn> Couldn't you just do it as root?
<ubuntujenkins> not sure I will check the default permissions I think not
<ubuntujenkins> no only the owner has permisson to write
<TommyBrunn> I see. Oh well, temporarily changing the permissions shouldn't be such a big deal - as long as we make sure to change them back once we're done.
<ubuntujenkins> The are changed back two lines later
<TommyBrunn> Great.
<TommyBrunn> I've been looking into taking screenshots using Python, and it doesn't seem that hard at all.
<TommyBrunn> So really, we should be able to finish this project pretty soon.
<TommyBrunn> Which is quite disconcerting in one way, because I'm my university course is supposed to take between 2 and 4 months. :P
<ubuntujenkins> cool I had not concidered that bit yet. I have the user name importing but there is a problem with the if function not working
<TommyBrunn> Could you push the changes to trunk and I'll have a look.
<ubuntujenkins> Will do I have an error at the moment
<ubuntujenkins> add after line 151 http://paste.ubuntu.com/378401/ and change the YOUR_PATH_TO_THE_QUICKSHOT_FOLDER and allow all users to exicute the quickly folder in your user. I am setting up variables to make it work for all people best not to put it in the branch until then. It will also need changing slightly when we have a proper program but it gives you the idea.
<TommyBrunn> Make sure you pull before you push, btw. I've commited some minor UI fixes.
<ubuntujenkins> I can't add it to the branch yet see previous post
<TommyBrunn> What does this do? 'echo "cd /home/YOUR_PATH_TO_THE_QUICKSHOT_FOLDER/quickshot" >>/home/quickshot/.profile'
<ubuntujenkins> it adds the line to the .profile file in the quickshot user so that they can do quickly run on login.
<TommyBrunn> So what exactly is it supposed to add to the .profile file?
<ubuntujenkins>  /home/YOUR_PATH_TO_THE_QUICKSHOT_FOLDER/quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> and
<ubuntujenkins> quickly run
<ubuntujenkins> thats done by the next line
<ubuntujenkins> ment to put cd /home/YOUR_PATH_TO_THE_QUICKSHOT_FOLDER/quickshot
<TommyBrunn> So /home/YOUR_PATH_TO_THE_QUICKSHOT_FOLDER/quickshot is supposed to be where the program is installed to?
<TommyBrunn> So in my case, I have my quickshot folder in /home/nevon/workspace/quickshot/
<ubuntujenkins> yes, you wouldn't have that line in the real program its a work around
<ubuntujenkins> you will proably have to remove pervious quickshot users
<TommyBrunn> Hmm. I'm not sure if this is correct. Also, the commands won't be run interactively, so for each command you start from home. So there's no need for os.system("exit") or os.system("cd")
<TommyBrunn> And you don't need to store the output in $success, unless you intend to do something with it.
<TommyBrunn> You can simply run it directly.
<ubuntujenkins> I was unsure i put them in just incase concider them remove. This is my first program of any kind
<ubuntujenkins> *removed
<TommyBrunn> I think there's an easier way to edit the .profile file.
<ubuntujenkins> as far as I understand only the owner has write permissions.  I am welcome to suggestions
<TommyBrunn> I'm working on it.
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<TommyBrunn> http://paste.ubuntu.com/378415/
<TommyBrunn> I haven't tried it though.
<TommyBrunn> You should probably try it on some harmless file first.
<TommyBrunn> For a test.
<ubuntujenkins> cool about to ty it whats wrong with http://paste.ubuntu.com/378417/
<ubuntujenkins> copy and paste fail! this should be at the to currentuser = os.getlogin()
<TommyBrunn> Should be like this:
<TommyBrunn> if currentuser == "luke-jennings":
<TommyBrunn>    print "Ok"
<ubuntujenkins> that works great had to edit the home directory to point to mine. is it possible to set that as a variable?
<TommyBrunn> Getting the current user's home directory?
<TommyBrunn> os.path.expanduser("~")
<TommyBrunn> But that will get the current user's home directory, not quickshot's home directory
<TommyBrunn> But we already know that quickshot's home directory will always be /home/quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> current users quickshot directory as in my directory or your directory.
<TommyBrunn> No, not really. And it wouldn't matter much anyway, because the quickshot user can't run anything in the regular user's home directory.
<ubuntujenkins> I know the quickshot how doesn't have a quickshot branch you need access to the branch to do "quickly run" .
<ubuntujenkins> this is only needed whilst its not a full packaged program
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, I'm not sure. I haven't figured that out yet. I suppose you could copy the quickshot directory over to the quickshot user's home directory and give the quickshot user ownership of the new directory.
<ubuntujenkins> that is a better idea,
<TommyBrunn> To do that, you use the shutil module with the copytree method.
<TommyBrunn> http://docs.python.org/library/shutil.html
<ubuntujenkins> is it miles better than doing os.system(cp......)
<TommyBrunn> And then use os.system('chown +R quickshot /home/quickshot/quickshot')
<TommyBrunn> You should always try to use Python when you can, rather than relying on bash.
<ubuntujenkins> ok cool you are teaching me alot
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<TommyBrunn> Haha, I didn't know I had much to teach. :D
<ubuntujenkins> right so if we use the shutil module to do that I have the user detected I just need to skip lots of lines in the file to the later windows
<ubuntujenkins> what time zone are you in I am in GMT
<TommyBrunn> I'm not sure what you mean.
<TommyBrunn> I'm in GMT+1
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<TommyBrunn> What's your native language?
<TommyBrunn> ac.uk? Britain?
<ubuntujenkins> english I am a shocking at explaining things in a written form. :)
<TommyBrunn> Have you gotten your current changes working to the point where the program doesn't crash?
<TommyBrunn> Or does anything funny?
<TommyBrunn> If so, you should probably push the changes so that I can have a look.
<ubuntujenkins> you have edited my only change :P
<TommyBrunn> My girlfriend will be coming home soon, and I have a feeling she'll be hungry, so I'm going to have to leave in a bit.
<TommyBrunn> Well, push that then.
<ubuntujenkins> sure I ping me if you are on later thanks so much for your time. I will try and learn more
<TommyBrunn> Just give me a shout if there's anything you need. I won't be far away
<ubuntujenkins> Ok I will understand the shutil library
 * ubuntujenkins has pushed some stuff for quickshot
 * TommyBrunn will check it out
<ubuntujenkins> make sure you remove previous user
<TommyBrunn> Some of this stuff is in the wrong place, and it's incorrectly indented - which breaks it, since whitespace is syntactically significant in Python.
<ubuntujenkins> woops I know which bit you mean, I wanted it to trigger on the ok button of the password window as we don't want the branch added everytime people click login
<TommyBrunn> Also, you need to make sure that you're indenting using 4 spaces, not tabs
<TommyBrunn> Otherwise it also breaks.
<TommyBrunn> I'm going to clean this up and push it
<ubuntujenkins> thank you :)
 * ubuntujenkins reads on white spaces
 * TommyBrunn pushed the changes.
<TommyBrunn> The next thing will be to check whether or not the user is logged in as quickshot. If so, then the application should skip ahead to the window called "newuserwelcome"
<ubuntujenkins> I am thinking I will not push anything before showing you,
<ubuntujenkins> just check but I think there is a error
<ubuntujenkins> when runing it
<TommyBrunn> The best thing would be to create your own branch that you can push to. That way your work can be reviewed before being merged into the main branch.
<TommyBrunn> Where's the error?
<ubuntujenkins> line 169
<TommyBrunn> 169? That's a comment :S
<TommyBrunn> What does the error message say?
<ubuntujenkins> I know it says http://paste.ubuntu.com/378540/
<TommyBrunn> wtf
<TommyBrunn> That is... Odd.
<TommyBrunn> You're right. I get the same error. :S
<TommyBrunn> Found it
<ubuntujenkins> same
<TommyBrunn> Sloppy mistake on my part.
<ubuntujenkins> I will let you push the change
<TommyBrunn> Pushed.
<ubuntujenkins> pulled
<TommyBrunn> Anyway. You should get yourself a new branch. That way you can make whatever changes you want, and when you've got something you want to merge with the main branch, you can just file a merge request and have someone look through the code and add it to the main one.
<TommyBrunn> https://code.launchpad.net/quickshot/+addbranch
<TommyBrunn> The only difference will be that you push using:
<TommyBrunn> bzr push lp:~ubuntujenkins/quickshot/quickshot-branch
<TommyBrunn> Or something like that.
<ubuntujenkins> deffinatley sounds like a good idea
<TommyBrunn> brb
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk with the screenshots are they going in the ubuntu-manual branch or in a screenshots branch?
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn what calls the "newuserwelcome" window?
<TommyBrunn> Windows and shown and hidden using:
<TommyBrunn> self.<windowname_as_defined_on_row_73-85>.hide()
<TommyBrunn> or
<TommyBrunn> self.<windowname_as_defined_on_row_73-85>.show()
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks
<TommyBrunn> Good job on finding gdmflexiserver, ubuntujenkins.
<TommyBrunn> I just tried it all out, and it works perfectly for what we want it to do.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks I am starting to understand things now
<TommyBrunn> Good. I'm itching to start working on the project for real, but I want to wait until Benjamin gets back so that we can formulate a project plan for my uni.
<ubuntujenkins> I have stuff to write for the manual, I think it is soon going to get way out of my depth
<TommyBrunn> I have to document all my work, and for some reason I don't think they would be happy if I finished the project in a quarter of the time I was alloted.
<TommyBrunn> What are you writing for the manual?
<ubuntujenkins> well the manual has to be out by lucid release
<ubuntujenkins> I have done f-spot empathy and am on totem
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<TommyBrunn> Oh I intend to finish Quickshot long before the deadline for the manual, but I can't finish it before I have officially started.
<TommyBrunn> Red tape, always getting in the way.
<ubuntujenkins> I see when do you officialy start?
<TommyBrunn> Well, Benjamin, who will be my handler, gets back two days from now, I believe. After that, we need to formulate a project plan. After that, I can officially start.
<TommyBrunn> So 3-5 days, I guess.
<ubuntujenkins> thats cool I will the manual has to be basicly written by then, I have uni work to do so thats perfect. I don't expect to do anymore after tonight
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I don't see why the screenshots can't go in the main branch.  They'll end up there eventually anyway.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Or do you mean the screenshots taken by QuickShot?  In that case, they may go to their own branch and get merged in later.
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: The screenshots need to be stored in their own branch, as quickshot needs to be able to download them with each new session.
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: Yeah, if his question was in the context of QuickShot, then the screenshots will go in their own branch.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk I thought they would go in a seperate branch just wanted to know if you were able to merge the screenshot branch and the manual branch
<godbyk> Shouldn't be a problem.
<ubuntujenkins> i was talking about quickshot
 * ubuntujenkins is restarting
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-18
<wolter> do any of you use preload app?
<wolter> hi
<wolter> do any of you use preload? I pgrep it and it doesn't appear, but I don't know if thats normal
<IlyaHaykinson> what's preload?
<IlyaHaykinson> nevermind, found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preload_%28software%29
 * ubuntujenkins is going to finish totem tonight
 * IlyaHaykinson hopes to finish Evolution tomorrow
<ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson do you want me to do tomboy? Ben also added quickscan to the wiki
<IlyaHaykinson> quickscan should not go into the default apps chapter, it should go into hardware
<IlyaHaykinson> which already is supposed to have a section on scanning
<ubuntujenkins> that was what I thought, how is the hardware section going?
<IlyaHaykinson> however, if you can do tomboy that'd be great. note the Ubuntu One sync is part of it though, which matt griffin is supposed to be working on (along with rhythmbox)
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll check in with matt and cc you, we'll see if he's still up to writing those sections
<IlyaHaykinson> btw, great work on your sections! i went through and made some edits to the empathy section, but overall really wonderful stuff.
<ubuntujenkins> I spoke to matt griffin after the last meeting and he said he had been doing some work on ubuntu one
<ubuntujenkins> thnaks hopefully i have reduced the changes in the other sections
<IlyaHaykinson> well, he works at canonical on ubuntu one :) so _hopefully_ he's doing some work on it :)
<IlyaHaykinson> hopefully, though, he's also working on the manual sections for it :)
<ubuntujenkins> If I see him I will ask him to add his stuff to the branch
<ubuntujenkins> *on irc :)
<IlyaHaykinson> nod.
<IlyaHaykinson> thx
<ubuntujenkins> you must be up very late
<IlyaHaykinson> it's midnight... not too horrible.
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<IlyaHaykinson> sent matt an email (cc'ed you)
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil
<thorwil> hi godbyk
<godbyk> I've been looking at fonts lately.
<godbyk> I've been working on making a list of the glyphs that each language requires, so we can find fonts that support each of the languages we're translating to.
<godbyk> It's a pain.
<godbyk> I think I may push that back for a bit and just work on the basic (English) design for now and come back to the other languages a bit later.
<godbyk> thorwil: Of the fonts you posted, do you have any favorites?
<thorwil> godbyk: i need to know what to use for the latin-languages, so my test is all about that. doesn't need to be the same font for other character sets, as they have different characteristics (in other words, it doesn't look so much like a single font, anyway)
<thorwil> godbyk: no, i need to have a closer look at my own test. what i saw immediately is that the "Ub" pair is very unfortunate in many serif fonts
<thorwil> it's really sad how many free/open fonts have kerning issues. although this helps to make a selection
<godbyk> I agree with all of the above. :)
<godbyk> It's surprising how many open fonts also have missing glyphs.. sometimes just one or two short to handle the language you want.
<godbyk> I guess we're only really limited to open fonts if we want others to be able to compile the PDF. :-P
<thorwil> and no bold for Gentium, only bold for Gentium (Book) Basic
 * ubuntujenkins recives e-mail
<godbyk> It'd be nice if we had a font that had small caps, too, given the number of acronyms we have.
<thorwil> godbyk: there's a practical and an ideological side to that ;)
<godbyk> But those seem to be missing in most of the free fonts, too.
<godbyk> I know. :)
<thorwil> although i like to think the free software ideology is actually long term pragmatism :)
<godbyk> Since we're trying to keep the manual friendly, accessible, and, well, human, it would be nice if we had a good humanist sans for the sidenotes.
<thorwil> godbyk: i think 2 or 3 of the fonts in my set do have a small caps set
<godbyk> I think that's a good way of thinking about free software.  I view it that way, too.  (I like my data to be free!)
<thorwil> godbyk: are we going to use italic? perhaps to avoid quotes in the body text?
<godbyk> I prefer italic, yeah.
<godbyk> Most of this bold stuff is going to go away, I think.
<godbyk> Much of it can be replaced with quotation marks or italics and it'll look nice.
<godbyk> nicer, rather.
<godbyk> the roman and italic don't need to be the same font, as long as their proportions are relatively similar.
<godbyk> (I can have XeLaTeX scale the fonts so their x-heights match.)
<thorwil> yes, i said that, too ;)
<godbyk> Are we supposed to have the translated versions done by beta (March 18th), too?
<thorwil> i don't think so
<godbyk> Do you recall which of these fonts have small caps?
<godbyk> I'm just glancing through them at the moment looking at the kerning and character of the type.
<godbyk> Man, I should've fixed this whole "word space, em dash, word space" thing a long time ago.  Blech.
<thorwil> sorry, no. fontmatrix is no help there, either
<godbyk> I like fontmatrix, but it's missing some features that would be really handy on this project. :-)
<godbyk> (like the ability to filter by supported orthographies.)
<godbyk> (or even supported unicode blocks.)
<thorwil> i have my problems getting used to the long dash without spaces, as you won't ever see that in german
<godbyk> Well, I would prefer to replace it with, say, \dash.. then we could define \dash on a per-language basis.
<godbyk> em dash for American English, en dash for British English, etc.
<thorwil> do that, then :)
<godbyk> I will at some point.
<godbyk> (That'll piss off the translators! :-))
<thorwil> (as if typography wasn't difficult enough in a single language)
<godbyk> Baskervald ADF Std is missing some of the glyphs (like the u-macron.
<godbyk> no doubt!
<godbyk> I feel halfway competent enough to design this manual in English.  But for other languages.. not at all.
<godbyk> I would love for it to look as great in each person's language as it does in the English version, but I don't have the skills/knowledge to pull that off.
<thorwil> i can only help with the german edition
<godbyk> Handily, German is one of the better languages to use LaTeX with.
<godbyk> Tribun ADF Med Std. looks like it's been squashed vertically.
<godbyk> like the x-height is too short for the width of the chars.
<godbyk> It's also missing the u-macron and u-breve glyphs.
<godbyk> Norasi is missing those glyphs, too.
<godbyk> Verana is missing them, too.
<godbyk> I know Esperanto needs the u-breve glyph.  Not sure what other languages need it right off.
 * thorwil makes list
<thorwil> heh, my font test SVGs seem to be a good way to make nautilus crash
<godbyk> nice.
<godbyk> for some reason inkscape takes 10-15 minutes to load for me.
<godbyk> wondering if it's because I have so many fonts installed.
<thorwil> yes, it's becuse of the fonts
<godbyk> figures.
<godbyk> lemme glance at the sans serif fonts you show
<godbyk> just gonna ramble on stream-of-consciousness-style.
<godbyk> Helvetian seems really open, large, and, well, boring.
<godbyk> whoops, that was FreeSans.
<godbyk> Linux Biolinum O has more character, which I like.  I'll look at its kerning and language coverage in a bit.
<godbyk> the others on the top row all seem boring.
<godbyk> (maybe it's just me.)
<godbyk> are there any sans that have old-style figures?
<thorwil> *shrug*
<godbyk> thorwil: Are you running TeX Live 2009?
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm running whatever is in karmic, i guess
<godbyk> That's 2007.
<godbyk> I'm going to copy your text from the svg and put it on a LaTeX doc so we can see how things come out there, too.
<thorwil> hmm, Ikarius isn't really sans
<godbyk> thorwil: I just emailed you a .tex file you can use to test fonts with.
<godbyk> I just took your text from the inkscape file and dropped it into a .tex file.
<thorwil> cool
<godbyk> You just need to put the font name in the \setmainfont{} command and run it with 'xelatex'.
<godbyk> (not pdflatex, not latex, but xelatex.)
<godbyk> It'll also make smaller PDFs that can be passed around for more opinions. :-)
<godbyk> Yeah, Ikarius is a slab serif.
<thorwil> i vaguely recall putting it there because the overall character seemed more sans to me
<godbyk> Gillius isn't bad.. a Gill Sans clone.
<godbyk> thorwil: What do you think of Fontin and Fontin Sans?
<thorwil> don't have those
<godbyk> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontin.html and http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontinsans.html
<godbyk> I like the sans.
<godbyk> Not sure about the serif yet.
<thorwil> i need to restart my session to get nautilus to behave again :/
<godbyk> scratch the fontin stuff.. it doesn't have the chars we want, and it also misbehaving a bit.
<thorwil> godbyk: i guess it's Biolinum or DejaVu Sans (or one of the similars where the bold isn't that bold) for the sans
<godbyk> thorwil: I do like Linux Biolinum O.. it has small caps (yay!), but no italics, though.
<thorwil> i wonder what the difference between BGP Galho and Rioni is
<thorwil> the first 3 sans have a nicer "a" than DejaVu Sans
<godbyk> I'm looking at the Libertine fonts site now.
<godbyk> brb
<godbyk> back
<thorwil> godbyk: do you agree with limiting the sans choices to 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9?
<godbyk> lemme look
<thorwil> godbyk: 1, 2, 3 are all quite similar, but 1 and 2 have a nicer 1 and french quotation marks, while 3 has better kerning after "T"
<godbyk> yeah, 1-3 look about the same.
<godbyk> The French quotation marks do look pretty lame in 3.
<godbyk> I'm playing with the Libertine fonts at the moment: http://linuxlibertine.sourceforge.net/Libertine-EN.html#styles
<godbyk> (Check out a couple of the PDFs they have.)
<godbyk> thorwil: I'm starting to think that the Libertine fonts may be the way to go.  Do you see any problems with them?
<thorwil> great stuff
<thorwil> godbyk: with Libertine, the end of the "u" is a bit strange and the "Ub" combo is bad
<godbyk> I don't think the foot of the "u" is bad... better than it having just a flat serif.
<godbyk> Let me play with the "Ub" kerning a sec.
<thorwil> i'm down to 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 for serifs
<thorwil> -8
<godbyk> kerning on 8 is horrible, yeah.
<thorwil> -10 as it does look stretched
<godbyk> kerning of quotes and apostrophes on 9 seems off
<godbyk> yeah, isn't that weird?!
<godbyk> I like the idea behind Gentium, but as a body font is just looks too... bouncy.
<godbyk> 2 might be a little heavy.
<thorwil> that's a slight kerning issue at 9, but since it also has no Cyrillic ... bye
<godbyk> is there cyrillic in the sample text?
<godbyk> or are you looking elsewhere?
<thorwil> yes, 2 seems a bit heavy, but it's a great font
<godbyk> yeah, I guess I'm just not looking for a book font.
<thorwil> godbyk: upper rows have cyrillic, lower not
<godbyk> ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> what's left in the running?
<thorwil> 1, 2, 4, 5
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> I keep seeing kerning issues on all of these..
<godbyk> after we pick one, we might have to look into fixing the kern tables or something.
<godbyk> fwiw, I don't like the italic on 1.
<godbyk> it looks more like a computer-generated italic instead of a true italic.
<godbyk> (slant vs. italic)
<thorwil> yes, weak
<godbyk> 5 has ligatures that look nice
 * godbyk checks to see if the others have ligs
<godbyk> 4 doesn't seem to have ligatures
<godbyk> 2 has ligatures
<thorwil> godbyk: 4 has a nasty "r" and a bit to squarish letter forms for our tone
<godbyk> 1 looks okay (whether is has ligatures or just doesn't need them)
<thorwil> down to 1, 2, 5
<godbyk> yeah, the serifs on 4 are kind of flat.
<godbyk> gotta love nit-picking fonts!
<godbyk> 1 and 2 don't have small caps.
<godbyk> the italic on 1 bugs me.
<godbyk> looks fake
<godbyk> in fact, looking at the glyph table of the italic font for 1, *everything* has been slanted.. even glyphs that shouldn't be.
<thorwil> so we would have to use another font, or drop 1 all together
<godbyk> right.
<thorwil> x-height in 1 is not the most beautiful, so bye
<godbyk> so we're left with 2 and 5?
<godbyk> lemme run both those through this program, see what languages they support
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> they're both pretty good
<godbyk> so far:
<godbyk> 5 has hebrew and 1 doesn't.
<godbyk> 1 has a couple languages that I've never heard of and that we're not translating to (yet)
<godbyk> oh, wait, 5 has both those, too.
<godbyk> 5 just has some other stuff in between. sorry.
<godbyk> 5 has archaic greek letters (for our ancient greek translation, maybe), 1 doesn't.
<godbyk> (not that I'm holding that against 1!)
<godbyk> 5 has full basic greek and 1 has fragmentary, though.  1 only covers 60%.
<godbyk> 5 has latin ligatures, and 1 doesn't.
<godbyk> (though in its defense, I don't think 1 requires them, since the overhangs and stems are so short)
<godbyk> 5 has only 95% coverage of Pan-Latin African, whereas 1 has full coverage.
<godbyk> (I don't think we're translating to any African languages yet.)
<thorwil> 2 really does say "book"
<thorwil> godbyk: so 5
<thorwil> ?
<godbyk> sure, sounds good to me.
<godbyk> I like 2 as a font..
<godbyk> just not for this manual, as much.
<godbyk> as an added bonus, 5 comes with latex packages. :-)
<thorwil> godbyk: Biolinum appears to have the matching color, but Gillius might be a good match, too, briefly looking
<godbyk> thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/l.pdf
<godbyk> we can play with the Ub kerning sometime if you want.
<godbyk> I do like Biolinum, but it appears to have just been started, so it's not as complete.
<godbyk> I'm not sure if we'll run into problems with it or not.
<godbyk> I like what I see so far, though. :-)
<godbyk> let me see what coverage it has.
<thorwil> godbyk: the obvious problem is that adding space to not have the serifs collide makes the pair fall apart everywhere else
<thorwil> godbyk: 3 would be the maximum for me and one might opt for 0
<godbyk> thorwil: yeah, that is the problem.
<godbyk> the first line (unnumbered) is unkerned.
<godbyk> each one after that is kerned +0.01em per line
<godbyk> I think that 1 strikes an okay balance.
<godbyk> not too separated, but not kissing like the original
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> (though the serifs in the original aren't technically overlapping, they come as close as they can!)
<godbyk> Since I imagine Ubuntu is the only word that has this combo (that we'll use frequently enough for people to notice), I'll make an \Ubuntu command to set it nicely
<thorwil> heh
 * thorwil -> lunch
<godbyk> .Biolinum actually has a lot better coverage than I anticipated.
<godbyk> thorwil: Here's what the manual looks like with the new fonts: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf
<godbyk> (Note that I haven't turned on any of the nice opentype features yet, so some things may look funky.)
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: I don't think this is related to the font selection, but what's up with the horrible jaggedness of the first page? :S
<godbyk> what page number?
<TommyBrunn> The cover page
<TommyBrunn> The very first one.
<TommyBrunn> With the Lynx on.
<godbyk> oh, you mean how ugly the whole thing looks?
<godbyk> it's a PNG graphic that's been scaled up to a full page.
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: Yes, that's what I figured. Please tell me that will be replaced with a full-scale one as the manual gets closer to release?
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: It absolutely will.
<godbyk> It's just that, at the moment, Inkscape chokes a bit when it generates a PDF from the SVG.
<godbyk> (Something to do with the transparency or gradients or somesuch.)
<TommyBrunn> Oh good. The general look of it is great, but the quality of it made me a bit concerned. :P
<godbyk> I hear ya.  No worries, we'll be getting to that soon, too.
<cjohnston> dutchie: looks like all the classes are scheduled?
<thorwil> godbyk: so serif for body text, all headlines in sans. marginals sans, too, perhaps?
<godbyk> Yep.
<godbyk> I was just playing with the marginals, trying out sans for them.
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<godbyk> It's 6 a.m. here; I should go to bed soon.
<godbyk> I like the old-style numbers.
<thorwil> good
<godbyk> When I wake up, I'll set up the \dash command, the spacing for units (like 5 GB), and small-caps for acronyms.
<godbyk> Then we can start tidying up the rest of the document format. :)
<TommyBrunn> Something has been kind of bothering me lately. Does the project have Canonical's permission to use their trademark and logo? Do we even need it?
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<TommyBrunn> Oh, I see. That's good.
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm writing a mail to the list about our choices.
<godbyk> Oh, about the fonts we chose?
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> gotcha
<thorwil> godbyk: to trigger the complaints we will likely ignore as soon as possible ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: heh.. no doubt.  sounds like a plan!
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<godbyk> I converted the prologue and installation chapters to use the \dash command and also converted some things to small caps and set up the units package for spacing (between, for example, 3 and GB).
<godbyk> let me know what you think.
<godbyk> I'm gong to sleep now.
<godbyk> (leave messages here or email)
<thorwil> ok
<thorwil> godbyk: section titles like Prologue should be sans
<thorwil> "ubuntu 10.04" with text figures is awesome
<thorwil> maybe we should reserve a color for links (headings couldn't have the same, then)
<thorwil> godbyk: smallest headline level could have no space below, if the following text has first line indent
<thorwil> not happy with those rectangles as bullet points. maybe just classic dashes, left aligned with body text?
<thorwil> -------
<dutchie> cjohnston: I've put times down for all of them, but they haven't all been confirmed with the speakers
<cjohnston> dutchie: PM?
<dutchie> cjohnston: go for it
<dutchie> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/02/17/s03e01-the-golden-web/ # got a mention on there
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-19
<cjohnston> dutchie: does that mean its confirmed?
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil.  Want to continue some design work?
<godbyk> Hey, komsas.  Did you get the manual to compile okay under TL2009?
<komsas> hi godbyk, yes, but some lithuanian letters are squares.
<godbyk> We just settled on a new typeface.  Let me upload the latest code and see if those letters appear in this font.
<godbyk> (If not, we'll find a font that supports all the Lithuanian glyphs.)
<komsas> ok, I will pull
<godbyk> give me a sec to push it first
<godbyk> komsas: Okay, I've pushed it.
 * komsas pulling
<komsas> godbyk: "! LaTeX Error: Missing \begin{document}." ?
<godbyk> Are you running 'make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf"?
<komsas> yes
<godbyk> Run 'make clean' and 'rm ubuntu-manual-lt.*' and then try it again.
<komsas> it didn't help
<komsas> same error
<godbyk> Run 'make ubuntu-manual-lt.tex'
<godbyk> then open the ubuntu-manual-lt.tex file.
<godbyk> does it have a \begin{document} line in it?
<godbyk> (should be around line 5)
<komsas> it have, strange.
<godbyk> can you send me your ubuntu-manual-lt.log file?  (pastbin or email to godbyk@gmail.com)
<komsas> ok
<godbyk> Do you have local edits to the po/lt.po file, or is it the same that's in the bzr repository?
<komsas> http://paste.ubuntu.com/379621/
<godbyk> In the meantime, here's my compiled copy: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf
<godbyk> See if there are letters missing still.
<komsas> same like in bzr repo
<komsas> godbyk: now all letters showing. :)
<godbyk> did the paste get cut off?
<godbyk> awesome. :)
<komsas> no, it is all text
<godbyk> looks like it's been cut off at the bottom.
<godbyk> \sl@tab@pred isn't a full line
<thorwil> hi godbyk
<godbyk> should be \si@tab@predim=\dimen###
<komsas> http://paste.ubuntu.com/379624/
<godbyk> hey, thorwil .
<godbyk> I pushed our font changes.
<godbyk> Haven't got back to the headings yet.
<godbyk> trying to sort on the running heads.. the small caps are failing in the translations for some odd reason.
<godbyk> komsas: better
<godbyk> looks like some of your stuff got merged
<godbyk> or didn't, as the case may be.
<godbyk> there are <<<< TREE lines that are mucking things up.
<godbyk> komsas: run 'bzr status' and see what it says
<thorwil> godbyk: well, any open design issues on your side? it seems like you are busy enough :)
<godbyk> thorwil: heh.. I have a pile of TODOs.
<komsas> some conflicts with ubuntu-manual.cls, I did some changes, commented some unnecessary fonts.
<godbyk> I may have to put most of them off until I get done putting together slides and whatnot for this Lernid session I'm signed up for.
<godbyk> komsas: aha.  Just run 'bzr revert ubuntu-manual.cls' and try it all again.
<godbyk> I restructured the code a bit, so you shouldn't need all the fonts now -- just the ones required to compile the translation you're interested in.
<thorwil> heh, the 48hour thing will at least succeed in causing stress
<godbyk> thorwil: yeah, namely because I'm not quite sure what I'm to cover.
<godbyk> At this stage, I think most of the writing is done and now we're left with editing and translating, right?
<thorwil> i have no clue on the state of writing. i try to not care about that :)
<godbyk> I haven't been paying attention either.
<godbyk> I've been trying to get the document design down and working on getting all the translations to compile.
<godbyk> Btw, do you know what the status is of all that icon talk?
<godbyk> komsas: Did the bzr revert let you compile okay or are you still having problems?
<komsas> I pulled new branch, now I'm getting error "po4a::tex: Can't read from file without having a filename"
<godbyk> what is the po4a-translate command line look like?
<komsas> "at /usr/bin/po4a-translate line 227"
<komsas> godbyk: "po4a-translate --master-charset=utf8 -f latex -m main.tex -p po/lt.po -l ubuntu-manual-lt.tex -k 0"
<godbyk> that looks right.
<godbyk> does 'make ubuntu-manual-lt.tex' work?
<komsas> nop, same error
<godbyk> Does the size of ubuntu-manual.cls equal 24438 bytes?
<godbyk> (also, does 'make' work by itself?)
<ubuntujenkins> no make doen't work I just pulled a new branch
<komsas> yes, same size.
<godbyk> what's it say when you run 'make' (with no arguments)?
<komsas> make works godbyk
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/379632/
<ubuntujenkins> I have to go to a lecture be back in a bit
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: you may have to install TeX Live 2009.
<godbyk> thorwil: does the latest revision compile for you?  (or am I the only one?)
<komsas> godbyk: now I did get that error, after I did make. I have new "! Font \zf@basefont="Linux Libertine O" at 10.0pt not loadable: Metric (TFM) fi
<komsas> le or installed font not found.
<komsas> "
<komsas> didn't *
<godbyk> Ah, komsas, make sure you have done a 'sudo apt-get install ttf-linux-libertine'.
<komsas> godbyk: thank u ! all works perfect. :)
<godbyk> komsas: Awesome!
<godbyk> Both the regular 'make' and the 'make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf' work?
<komsas> yes
<thorwil> godbyk: the status regarding icons is that i have to do it and havn't really started
<godbyk> thorwil: Gotcha.  Just curious.
<komsas> but make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf began work only after I did make.
<godbyk> Do you know what you're going to do for icons and just have to draw them?  Or you haven't started thinking about it yet?
<godbyk> (More specifically, I'm curious as to what I'll need to do to help out.)
<thorwil> godbyk: first i will deal with those for the title page
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm not even sure about their number there
<godbyk> Are we doing icons per chapter?
<thorwil> maybe
<thorwil> Ben wants them, but i will not do it if i don't see sane options for each chapter
<godbyk> Right, I agree.
<thorwil> ! LaTeX Error: File `siunitx.sty' not found.
<godbyk> thorwil: Are you running TeX Live 2009?
<thorwil> install-pkgs.sh doesn't help
<godbyk> Yeah, I think it doesn't exist in 2007.
<godbyk> Time for everyone to upgrade anyway. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: so should i uninstall the package and get it from the projects site?
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, uninstall all the texlive-* packages, then you can follow the install instructions in that email I posted eons ago.
<thorwil> found it
<thorwil> wow: After this operation, 527MB disk space will be freed.
<godbyk> thorwil: To be replaced by a nice 2.5 GB download (if you have install absolutely everything).
<thorwil> good that you say that. i don't have that space
<godbyk> You can install less than everything, but I don't know what kind of space it requires.
<godbyk> At a minimu
<godbyk> Blah
<godbyk> You could do a minimal install, and then just install each individual package that we require.
<godbyk> Make sure you install xelatex.
<godbyk> you don't need any docs
<godbyk> and you'll want the language packs for any translations you want to compile.
<thorwil> still installing
<godbyk> thorwil: how much space will it take?
<thorwil> godbyk: i think it said something around 1500 MB
<thorwil> no docs, only english and german
<godbyk> nice
<godbyk> there are a TON of packages for latex.
<thorwil> makes me wonder what current MS Word takes
<godbyk> I'm not sure.  But it doesn't seem to do a lot of things that LaTeX does.
 * godbyk loves TeX
 * thorwil misses baseline grid support
<godbyk> If you try hard, you can get it to work in LaTeX.  I think that ConTeXt has grid support.
<godbyk> LaTeX3 is supposed to have grid support, if they ever finish writing it.
<godbyk> TeX was written specifically to typeset mathematics really well.
<godbyk> And math doesn't like to be set on a grid. :-/
<godbyk> So by default, the document styles in LaTeX use stretchable spaces.
<godbyk> For instance, the space above a section heading might be 14pt +2 or -3.
<godbyk> So it'll nominally be 14 pt.
<godbyk> But if LaTeX needs to adjust it to fill the page better, it can stretch it up to 16 pt and shrink it to 11 pt.
<godbyk> You can remove the stretchy bits and say, 'I want this to be 14 pt, no more, no less.'
<godbyk> And LaTeX will do that.
<godbyk> But there are a lot of bits of glue sprinkled through, so you have to track them all down.
<godbyk> (There was a package written a while ago that found most of 'em.  I've been meaning to try it out, but haven't taken the time yet.)
<godbyk> I'm willing to give it a go, if you'd like to help. :)
<thorwil> i have to stay focused
<godbyk> On what?
<thorwil> the title page
<godbyk> Ah, fair enough.
<godbyk> If we know what text is to be on there, we should get it to the translators so they can have at it.  Then once the design is done, we can get the translations wrapped up and put the whole title page thing behind us.
<thorwil> i might sound like a broken record, but no good will come out of me taking on additional pieces of the cake
<godbyk> No worries, I understand completely.
<godbyk> I'm juggling a bunch of things right now and my brain is fried.
<godbyk> I'm trying to get this document design finalized, get all the translations to compile, handle design differences for some of the languages, and I still need to toss together a presentation for this 48-hours thing.
<thorwil> :)
<thorwil> seen wolter lately?
<godbyk> I haven't seen him for a while.
<godbyk> With that, I think I'll go read a bit before going to sleep.
<godbyk> As always, if anyone needs anything, ping me and I'll take a look when I'm awake again. :)
<thorwil> ok, cya
<dutchie> cjohnston: confirmed as in?
<ubuntujenkins> is anyone running lucid able to compile the manual?
<ubuntujenkins> Lucid has texlive 2009
<dutchie> haven't tried recently
<dutchie> wfm
<dutchie> can't do localised versions though
<ubuntujenkins> I can't do the main version localised is hard to do
<ubuntujenkins> I have a new branch as well
<ubuntujenkins> I think I will download texlive from the internet. where is the best place to install it>
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: /usr/locl
<dutchie> +a
<ubuntujenkins> cheers
 * dutchie gets it to build in german
 * dutchie pokes godbyk with a glossary shaped stick
 * ubuntujenkins still can't compile the manual in any form. Considers clean installing ubuntu
<dutchie> what errors are you getting?
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/379913/
<ubuntujenkins> I have done three completly removes in synaptic and reinstalled the packages, I have installed as per god bk e-mail.
<dutchie> do you have fonts installed?
<ubuntujenkins> in every possible language I have the whole of texlive-full
<ubuntujenkins> I like looking at the stuff as I write it to see if the formating is write, I also like to check if I have caused any compiling errors in my work
<ubuntujenkins> *right
<dutchie> fonts live in ttf-*, not texlive-full
<ubuntujenkins> I am installing as many as I can find
<ubuntujenkins> well with every possible ttf-* installed I get the exact same error
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> have to ask godbyk when he's around
<ubuntujenkins> will do
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: fwiw, http://pastebin.com/f3cddede5 is the ttf-* packages I have installed
<ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie I shall have a compare
 * ubuntujenkins has no luck
<godbyk> I'm back.
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie can you do a pull and check that the manual still compiles ok?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: It's using your TeX Live 2007 install.  Have you upgraded to 2009 yet?
<godbyk> dutchie: The glossary stuff may wait until just after the 48-hours thing.
<godbyk> It'll involve everyone upgrading to 2009 (which they should be doing at this point anyway).
<godbyk> I have to whip up some slides and whatever for my session.  (Haven't started yet.)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk I did an install as per your e-mail. Also I am using lucid which has the 2009 packages but no such luck
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Are you using the Lucid packages or the instructions from my email?
<godbyk> If you followed the instructions from my email, you should uninstall all the texlive-* packages using synaptic.
<godbyk> And make sure you do *not* run the install-pkgs.sh script.
<ubuntujenkins> I will try again from the start
<dutchie> it's stopped compiling now :)
<dutchie> ! Misplaced alignment tab character &.
<godbyk> dutchie: put a backslash in front of the ampersand.
<godbyk> & has special meaning, so use \& to get a printed ampersand.
 * dutchie curses whoever changed it and didn't test the build
<ubuntujenkins> my bad dutchie I think that might be my fault as you know I can't test it
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: no worries then
<ubuntujenkins> I do normaly test
<dutchie> \textfeild is an easy mistake to make
<ubuntujenkins> I try and think about lots of things at once so thats why I usualy check it
<ubuntujenkins> and make mistakes
<godbyk> brb, I'm going to reheat some leftovers.
 * ubuntujenkins starts compiling textlive again
<ubuntujenkins> thanks for checking dutchie
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I hope you're just installing it, not compiling it. :)
<ubuntujenkins> I ment installing :)
<godbyk> back now.
<godbyk> Hey, komsas, did we get you up and running last time or were there still problems? (I can't recall where we left off.)
<komsas> godbyk: hehe, we are good !
<godbyk> cool.  just checking!
<komsas> we celabrate my birthday :)))
<komsas> http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20100220000601.jpg
 * humphreybc is back
 * humphreybc has 62 emails
<dutchie> \o/
 * dutchie has broken his computer
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i managed to get some work done
<humphreybc> i did some heavy editing on the prologue, chapters 1, 2, 5, 7 and 8
<humphreybc> hopefully it's not going to destroy the branch if I merge them...
<godbyk> humphreybc: Oh, figures.  I edited some of your stuff while you were out.
<godbyk> But my edits were global find/replace stuff, so feel free to just overwrite them completely for now.
<humphreybc> godbyk: yeah i just got a conflict with prologue and installation
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> i'm not sure what happens with the conflicts
<humphreybc> i'm going to push anyway :|
<godbyk> make sure it compiles first
<humphreybc> kk
<godbyk> and check for "<<<<<" in the source files.. if they exist, then the merge wasn't so good.
<dutchie> or run "bzr conflicts"
<humphreybc> compiles okay, i've run bzr conflict resolve <file> on the two files
<godbyk> ok
<humphreybc> I do have a lot of "<<<<<<< TREE" in the source files
<dutchie> http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.0.92/en/user-guide/conflicts.html
<ubuntujenkins> huphreybc is back yey TommyBrunn and I have had some fun with quickshot
<humphreybc> should I just remove that stuff?
<godbyk> ah, yeah, you'll want to fix those. :)
<humphreybc> i kept a backup of my changes, i'll just overwrite the files
<godbyk> yeah, just overwrite the files with your changes.
<humphreybc> godbyk: what's prologue.aux?
<godbyk> if it's problematic, you can pull a completely fresh branch, then put in your changes and push.
<godbyk> humphreybc: it's a temp file created by latex.
<godbyk> it can safely be ignored.
<godbyk> it gets regenerated each time you compile.
<humphreybc> oh true
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk it has finished installing an it says Most importantly, add /usr/local/texlive/2009/bin/x86_64-linux silly question but add it to where? and how?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I think they mean to add that to your PATH environment variable.
<dutchie> in your ~/.bashrc, add "export PATH=/usr/local/texlive/2009/bin/x86_64-linux:$PATH"
<humphreybc> okay seems to be all good now, i've made a lot of changes to the big chapters
<humphreybc> so everyone pull pull pull!
<godbyk> if you had the install program create symlinks, then you won't have to add it to your PATH
<ubuntujenkins> I did make it do symlinks I thought e looked important
<humphreybc> how's the prep going for 48 hours?
<godbyk> humphreybc: eh, haven't really started yet.  it's on my TODO list. :-)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: cool, then you should be okay.
<humphreybc> righto, as a team how are we going? times and stuff?
<godbyk> humphreybc: no clue, I've had my head in the sand most of this week.
<humphreybc> righto
<dutchie> humphreybc: see ML
<humphreybc> the NOTICE email dutchie?
<dutchie> cjohnston is also here to perform some sort of co-ordination with the classroom team
<dutchie> humphreybc: I forget
<humphreybc> okay.. so jamin and ryan can't do their sessions?
<cjohnston> ?
<dutchie> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00713.html
<dutchie> cjohnston: just a passing mention, now our project lead is back
<cjohnston> gotcha
<humphreybc> okay cool dutchie that was the email i read
<dutchie> great
<dutchie> we could do with someone to fill in jamin's sessions
<dutchie> the wiki should be up to date
 * ubuntujenkins can see a manual again
 * humphreybc pulls the quickshot branch and prepares to be amazed
<ubuntujenkins> I also have a quickshot branch bzr branch lp:~ubuntujenkins/quickshot/luke-quickshot
<humphreybc> is that for merges?
<ubuntujenkins> no its for experiments a I can't do python quite right yet mine does have some detection of if you are in the quickshot user but I can't skip the next button on the first screen.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> has Tommy not pushed his new stuff?
<humphreybc> oh he just hasn't set up bzr properly :)
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: run bzr whoami
<ubuntujenkins> Tommy and I worked together on stuff he coreccted / made better the suff i did and taught me some stuff
<humphreybc> bzrÂ whoamiÂ "JoeÂ BloggsÂ <bloggs@example.com>"
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: that way you get karma when you push to the branch
<ubuntujenkins> When you click the ok button in the password window it is slow as we had to use that button to do some temporary  trickery untill we have a proper program
<humphreybc> yup i noticed that
<humphreybc> so what's it actually doing?
<ubuntujenkins> Well quickshot now launches when you login to the quickshot user but to do that we had to put a copy of the quickshot branch in the quickshot user so that "quickly run" would work
<ubuntujenkins> normaly it would be lauched by linking to the quicjshot file in /usr/bin or where ever
<humphreybc> LOVE the new fonts
<humphreybc> I think we need a different colour for subsections
<ubuntujenkins> thoughts on quickshot? I know tommy has been looking into how to take the screen shots.
<ubuntujenkins> its not much but some functinality is there
<humphreybc> godbyk: how do i increase some line spacing? using \medskip doesn't seem to work best
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: quickshot is looking good, i'll have a proper look later on
<ubuntujenkins> sorry I am just a little excited that was such a fun day working it out and learning
<godbyk> humphreybc: Where?
<humphreybc> "special thanks" at the end of the credits
 * dutchie thinks the credits needs redoing
<ubuntujenkins> whats with the fireffox guide do not know the peoples proper names?
<ubuntujenkins> bit of the credits
<humphreybc> yeah the credits need a re work
<godbyk> I agree that the credits need to be redone.
<godbyk> Are they even up to date?
<godbyk> humphreybc: You can try \bigskip if you want, but I think we should just revamp the credits stuff anyway.
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> i just added some skips in and pushed anyway, but yeah, revamping the credits at some point is a good idea. no rush now though
<godbyk> right
 * humphreybc cannot believe the UMP facebook page has 169 fans.... 
<humphreybc> does anyone know how nice android phones play with ubuntu?
<humphreybc> i want to get an android touchscreen on a data contract so i can check my emails everywhere.... :O
<ubuntujenkins> I think you can sync music an videos but e-mails have to be done via google or similar, At least thats what I have heard. I dodn't own one
<humphreybc> i don't even know if you can get them in NZ
<ubuntujenkins> I would like them but they are expensive
<ubuntujenkins> *one
<dutchie> humphreybc: very nice
 * dutchie has one
<dutchie> they just appear as a mass storage, and sync with Google Mail, Calendar and Contacts
 * godbyk has a Nexus One
<godbyk> Heh.. thorwil's gonna hate me now. :)
<humphreybc> godbyk: why?
<godbyk> He keeps bugging me that he doesn't like the square bullets.  I just changed it to the Ubuntu logo (playing around).
<godbyk> Don't get too attached!
<humphreybc> lol
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntu logos :)
<humphreybc> do iphones work with ubuntu?
<humphreybc> (silly question i know but they have a good deal on them at the moment)
<dutchie> no
<ubuntujenkins> they don't
<humphreybc> why does NZ charge so much for phones
<dutchie> you need a better country
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> Also, you can't turn to the dark side and buy an iphone.. c'mon!
<dutchie> you do definitely need linux on your phone :)
 * dutchie wonders what's going to happen to the n900 now moblin/maemo have merged
<godbyk> hey, humphreybc, are you editing your prologue or installation chapters at the moment?  If not, I'm gonna go fiddle with 'em for a sec.
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> go for it
<godbyk> I saw that.  Choosing between an n900 and a nexus one was tough.
<humphreybc> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Mobile-phones/2degrees/auction-272572117.htm
<godbyk> went with the nexus one 'cause it looked like a better *phone*.
<dutchie> I went for an android because I â¥ google
<dutchie> it's not even deliberate
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> what do you think of that thing? it's unbranded but it does have android
 * dutchie is quite happy with his pulse
<humphreybc> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Mobile-phones/2degrees/auction-272596277.htm
<dutchie> isn't the magic the winmo one?
<humphreybc> i don't think so
<humphreybc> not sure
<humphreybc> none of the actual service providers stock them
<humphreybc> (android phones)
<humphreybc> so i couldn't get an account and get the phone for free
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'd buy an unlocked Nexus One. :-)
<humphreybc> yeah but they're too pricey
<humphreybc> i think i'll just hold out till a carrier launches one with some good pricing
 * dutchie got a pulse on pay as you go for Â£140
<humphreybc> nice
<humphreybc> right i'm going to go out for some lunch
<humphreybc> catch ya'll later
<ubuntujenkins> cya
<dutchie> time for bed I think
<dutchie> night
<ubuntujenkins> night
<ubuntujenkins> I am off too
<dutchie> lots of work done there :)
<godbyk> Fine, just leave. All of you!  :-)
<ubuntujenkins> still here just thought I would tinkier with changing the language from the command line
 * ubuntujenkins firefox in german :)
<godbyk> cool
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-20
<ubuntujenkins> loving the ubuntu logo bullet points they actually look good
<godbyk> yeah, they're not too bad..
<godbyk> we'll see.
<cjohnston> dutchie: ping
<humphreybc> godbyk: what's the command to make in spanish?
<godbyk> humphreybc: make ubuntu-manual-es.pdf
<TommyBrunn> Hey humphreybc, back from your trip?
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: yep sure am
<TommyBrunn> How was it?
<humphreybc> not too bad thanks, quite relaxing, went mountain biking/swimming etc
 * humphreybc just bought an HTC Magic - android phone :)
<TommyBrunn> Sweet!
 * TommyBrunn also wants a new gadget.
<humphreybc> yep, i'll have to sign up with vodafone and change my cell number but that should be okay
<humphreybc> probably start with 100mb of data a month for $10
<humphreybc> they do 1GB for $50 if I want
<TommyBrunn> Oh shit. I have to go do the laundry. (that's why I'm up so horribly early)
<TommyBrunn> brb
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> dutchie: if my new android phone doesn't work well on ubuntu i'm blaming you :)
<TommyBrunn> Back.
<TommyBrunn> God damn it's cold. :(
<TommyBrunn> You should treasure the fact that you live on a huge tropical island.
<humphreybc> NZ? Ha it's not tropical!
<humphreybc> it's very cold in winter at the bottom of NZ where I live
<TommyBrunn> Very cold? I doubt it.
<TommyBrunn> Right now it's -27 C here.
<humphreybc> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohh
<humphreybc> wow
<TommyBrunn> It's not very nice at all.
<humphreybc> i can imagine
<TommyBrunn> Oh well. Only four more months to go. [party]
<humphreybc> so what's happening with quickshot?
<TommyBrunn> Well, I haven't worked on it a lot, since we need to get a project plan formulated first. However, I have been thinking about it a lot, and I've pretty much got user account detection all figured out.
<humphreybc> awesome
<TommyBrunn> It can now switch user session without a problem.
<humphreybc> will I get an email from your uni on monday?
<TommyBrunn> Hopefully.
<humphreybc> yeh i tried it out and it seemed to work quite well
<TommyBrunn> It depends on how long it takes them to translate the corriculum.
<humphreybc> although my "new user" settings seem to be really weird. I customized the guest account so it must take them from there
<TommyBrunn> That seems likely, yes.
<humphreybc> i'll do a fresh install of lucid or something one day
<TommyBrunn> I did also read that email you sent me, and I think the guy who sent it kind of missed the point. It doesn't really matter that you can switch languages of an application independently - as we need to switch languages of everything.
<TommyBrunn> Including menues and stuff.
<TommyBrunn> It does however help translators. But I'm quite sure they already knew about it.
<TommyBrunn> As for a shutter plugin; sure, it would be nice and all. But it would take a lot more time.
<TommyBrunn> Oh yeah! I also checked out how to take screenshots, and it seems quite easy, really.
<TommyBrunn> The tricky part will probably be the parsing of the screenshot directory tree, and the integration with bzr.
<TommyBrunn> It you have the time, I would really like to get to work on a "schedule" for my work. For example, when's the deadline?
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: well if we could get it done by March 18th then that would be cool :)
<humphreybc> but i don't know how feasible that is
<TommyBrunn> Well, we should be able to get a crippled, bug-ridden version out by then. ;)
<TommyBrunn> We'll list that as a goal.
<TommyBrunn> Hmm, it's Feb 20th today, so that gives us... 26 days.
<TommyBrunn> What are the tasks that need to be completed?
<TommyBrunn> We need to have Quickshot detect if you're logged in as quickshot or not. That would be the closest goal.
<TommyBrunn> Allowing bzr login and downloading of the screenshot branch would be the next thing after that.
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> getting dependencies, language files
<humphreybc> creating the bzr branch with empty folders
<humphreybc> getting quickshot to recognize empty folders in the branch as screenshots that need to be taken
<humphreybc> etc
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, I've been thinking about that. We need some way to store what screenshots need to be taken, and information about them.
<humphreybc> we want it to be usable by March 18th, actually fully working by April 1st
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Sounds doable.
<humphreybc> well we could use a mysql database, but if we could use a bzr branch or a file in the branch
<TommyBrunn> A database would be overkill. A file in the branch would be better.
<TommyBrunn> Though I'm not sure about the format.
<humphreybc> martin says we can create empty files for the screenshots we need, so they "represent" what we need, then quickshot recognizes empty files as screenshots we need
<humphreybc> when it takes the screenshot it deletes the empty file and replaces it with the image
<TommyBrunn> Hmm. It would be easier to have one text file per screenshot. In it we could have information regarding that shot, like instructions on how to take it, etc.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> we could make all the english ones and then write a script to duplicate them in the languages
<humphreybc> but what about translating the descriptions?
<humphreybc> we can't really do that
<TommyBrunn> Alright. So another thing we would need to do is to figure out a way to store this information.
<humphreybc> we'll just have to target quickshot at english screenshotters
<TommyBrunn> I guess the descriptions will have to be in English.
<humphreybc> well one bzr branch would be too big by the end with 2000 screenshots
<humphreybc> maybe one branch per chapter
<humphreybc> that would be 11 branches
<humphreybc> or one branch per language, 40+ branches
<TommyBrunn> Hmm... Yes, I suppose.
<TommyBrunn> I think that one branch per language would be easier.
<humphreybc> but the chapters are an unchanging variable, they're fixed... languages aren't. people can add new languages whenever they want
<TommyBrunn> True.
<humphreybc> so it would make sense to have one branch per language
<humphreybc> can you write a script that pulls the list of languages off launchpad and creates branches for each?
<humphreybc> save us creating 40+ by hand
<TommyBrunn> Sure. Shouldn't take long.
<TommyBrunn> Hopefully.
<TommyBrunn> :$
<humphreybc> fun times :D
<humphreybc> i don't have much time to help you this week
<humphreybc> but from the 1st of march i'll have time in my python paper labs
<TommyBrunn> Don't worry about it. As long as you can help me jot down all the things that need to be done, I can start crossing them off the list myself.
<humphreybc> hopefully, if the uni lets me do that as my project
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> because i'm sucky at python, i can help design the UI, wording, icons and stuff
<humphreybc> and i know a bit about bzr
<humphreybc> how long is your paper for on this?
<TommyBrunn> Very short. I just need to write 4 or 5 pages.
<humphreybc> okay, what about time?
<humphreybc> ie how many weeks
<TommyBrunn> Plus about half a page that will be shown on the university's website.
<TommyBrunn> Whenever the project is finished.
<humphreybc> oh cool
<TommyBrunn> There's no set deadline.
<humphreybc> that's flexible!
<TommyBrunn> Yup.
<humphreybc> so howcome you're doing a project like this in first year?
<TommyBrunn> Because I'm awesome.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> i'm talking to our head of department at the start of march
<humphreybc> about ubuntu/google lunar x prize/how they can help etc
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Sounds... A little bit scary.
<humphreybc> it's full on
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> you'll have to give me a few days off to play with my new android toy though :D
<TommyBrunn> My head of department referred to the open source movement as "amateur freeware", so... It seems like kind of a lost cause to even bring it up with her.
<humphreybc> oh sucky
<humphreybc> our CS department loves open source
<TommyBrunn> You know what would be rad? If you could download only a portion of a branch. Then we wouldn't have to create 40 different branches.
<humphreybc> hrm
<TommyBrunn> I'm not in the CS department, sadly.
<humphreybc> oh what department?
<humphreybc> i'll find out if it's possible to download portions of one branch
<TommyBrunn> Eh, sociology, I guess.
<humphreybc> really?
<TommyBrunn> Yeah. It's a little bit odd.
<humphreybc> what's your major?
<TommyBrunn> We don't have majors/minors here.
<humphreybc> okay so what's your subject?
<humphreybc> or topic or something
<TommyBrunn> But I'm in the System Sciences (yeah, that's really what they're calling it) program, which is pretty much just software engineering with a focus on economic systems, transaction systems, management systems, etc.
<humphreybc> ah okay
<humphreybc> economics?
<humphreybc> economics is soo boring
<TommyBrunn> No economics, thankfully.
<humphreybc> great
<TommyBrunn> We just design the systems.
<humphreybc> gotcha
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Here's the list of tasks I got for now:
<TommyBrunn> - Get user detection working
<TommyBrunn> - Allow Launchpad login via bzr
<TommyBrunn> - Downloading of screenshots in an intelligent manner (no 2000 screenshots download)
<TommyBrunn> - Write a script to auto-create screenshot branches
<TommyBrunn> - Formulate a sensible format to use for screenshot descriptions etc.
<TommyBrunn> - Figure out how to parse the screenshot branches
<TommyBrunn> - Allow uploading of newly taken screenshots
<TommyBrunn> - Deletion of quickshot user account
<TommyBrunn> Oh f*ck. Sorry for the spam there.
<TommyBrunn> Have I forgotten anything?
<TommyBrunn> Oh, I should add that the UI needs to be fixed up.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i think that's about it
<IlyaHaykinson> hm.
<TommyBrunn> Good. Let me know if you come up with anything else.
<IlyaHaykinson> quick question about quickshot
<TommyBrunn> Go ahead.
<IlyaHaykinson> will it always take full-screen screenshots? or will it allow partials?
<IlyaHaykinson> i would imagine most our screenshots will be partials
<TommyBrunn> Partials should be easy to fix.
<IlyaHaykinson> manually?
<TommyBrunn> No.
<TommyBrunn> Or well, semi-manually.
<TommyBrunn> I can probably automatically find and take a screenshot of the active window.
<TommyBrunn> However, if it's an arbitrary area, then the user would at least have to somehow indicate what area that is.
<TommyBrunn> Like gnome-screenshot does, you know?
<IlyaHaykinson> hm... i think realistically we'll probably need to do rectangles...
<TommyBrunn> Well yes, that's what I meant.
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. take a snapshot of the desktop, let the user draw the rectangle over the area to be snapshotted, then snap away
<IlyaHaykinson> ah, gotcha
<TommyBrunn> What dpi do the screenshots need to be?
<IlyaHaykinson> there's conflicting info on what works best in PDFs.
<TommyBrunn> Oh, whoop-dee-doo!
<IlyaHaykinson> in terms of resolution and bit depth
<TommyBrunn> Oh well, it's not terribly important at the moment.
<TommyBrunn> Wow. It seems Gnome Planner doesn't allow you to work on weekends.
<TommyBrunn> That's very unrealistic of it.
<TommyBrunn> Ah, here we go. Now every day can be a working day.
<IlyaHaykinson> ;)
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: are there any additional design documents for Quickshot, besides what's in the wiki?
<TommyBrunn> And is there a color scheme available for the manual? I wanted to do my project plan in the same general style.
<TommyBrunn> Oh. Found it
<TommyBrunn> Kind of...
<humphreybc> nope and nope :)
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* my top panel got messed up; is there some cute trick to getting it rearranged?
<TommyBrunn> Patience.
<TommyBrunn> Time for me to head back out into the freezing cold. :'( brb
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh^2* took far too long to mess with gconf-edit to fix the panel
<TommyBrunn> Roughly how many screenshots will the manual contain?
<IlyaHaykinson> i heard an estimate of 50.
<IlyaHaykinson> i suspect there will be more
<IlyaHaykinson> though very few full-screen ones.
<TommyBrunn> What file format do we want the screenshots in? PNG?
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we need godbyk to help answer that -- depends on what's easiest for him to incorporate into the build process
<IlyaHaykinson> worst case we can convert during the build process, but of course would be best if we didn't have to.
<TommyBrunn> From what I can tell, it seems the easiest for me would be either jpeg or png.
<IlyaHaykinson> probably should do non-lossy then
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. png
<TommyBrunn> But I suppose imagemagick might be able to convert them afterwards, if that's needed.
<IlyaHaykinson> but i suspect that godbyk will need to convert
<TommyBrunn> I'll go with PNG for now, and we'll see what godbyk has to say later.
<TommyBrunn> I just need to know for my project specification. That's all.
<IlyaHaykinson> nod, makes sense
<godbyk> I can load either, but PNG is the better format for screenshots.
<godbyk> (JPG is better for photos.)
<godbyk> Blocks of solid color are compressed better by PNG.
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: Also, for what it's worth, there are currently 22 screenshots that have been flagged.
<godbyk> In six of the chapters.
<godbyk> (So who knows how many will be flagged in the remaining chapters?)
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: i haven't flagged most of my screenshots yet.
<IlyaHaykinson> but most of mine should be small callout-type shots
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It's pretty easy to flag 'em now.  Just add a line with \screenshotTODO{Description of required screenshot}.
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil! Just for you, I changed the square bullets.  :-P
<thorwil> heh
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: I know, i have some flags for new content I was writing, just haven't gone through any of the old stuff yet.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: gotcha.
<IlyaHaykinson> right now i'm working on some 48hrs stuff, then will switch back to finishing evolution, then work on openoffice (*sigh* this is a big undertaking; I think we'll have to be very brief in this first version of the manual), and then go through and edit up the old stuff, including adding screenshot markers
<godbyk> Yeah, I need to get some 48-hours stuff written up, too
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: What are you covering in your talk, and what do I need to cover in mine.  (i.e., where should we draw the line between LaTeX code and style?)
<godbyk> Also, I think that as we start editing what's been written, we should build a style guide so we can keep the style uniform throughout.
<godbyk> For instance, do you check or tick a check box?  And is it 'check box' or 'checkbox'?
<godbyk> Since the main version is to be written in American-style English, there are some considerations we need to take into account.. like the placement of punctuation and quotation marks.
<godbyk> (The rules are rather messy and illogical.)
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours/haykinson
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll post my slides tomorrow, most likely
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll basically concentrate on the _what_ to write, and how to phrase it, but not how to actually format it or use LaTeX at all
<IlyaHaykinson> i agree about building a style guide as we go.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Cool, thanks.
<IlyaHaykinson> however, there are a lot of references for this kind of stuff already. for example, the gnome documentation guidelines talk about the proper names for widgets
<godbyk> That's true.
<godbyk> We should have pointers to that in the style guide, but also give the highlights in our own guide.
<IlyaHaykinson> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.20/gnome-glossary-desktop.html.en
<IlyaHaykinson> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.20/gnome-glossary-user-actions.html.en
<IlyaHaykinson> these two are the best
<IlyaHaykinson> i use them all the time
<IlyaHaykinson> (not always consistently)
<IlyaHaykinson> added pointers from our style guide
<humphreybc> dutchie: you're up early
<TommyBrunn> Phew. Think I'm finished with my project plan now.
<IlyaHaykinson> alright, 13 slides for 48hrs done, rest can wait for the morning
<IlyaHaykinson> l8r folks
<TommyBrunn> Regarding 48hrs. Will the presentations be completely over IRC or will you have some sort of video or audio?
<IlyaHaykinson> IRC + optionally PDF slides
<dutchie> cjohnston: pong
<dutchie> humphreybc: it's only 9 here, not that early
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: I might make a ground control video demo tomorrow
<TommyBrunn> Cool. Does lernid have support for audio/video presentations as well?
 * humphreybc is excited to get his HTC magic
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: nope not at present
<humphreybc> I'll just link to youtube :)
<TommyBrunn> Too bad.
<humphreybc> yeah
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: Do you have time to look through the project plan? Just to see that everything is correct.
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> give me a link
<TommyBrunn> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/176093/Quickshot.pdf
<humphreybc> cool i'll have a look in a sec
<TommyBrunn> Sure.
<ubuntujenkins> by the way my branch of quickshot does user detect the quickshot user but after that the rest of the project looks way out of my range.
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, I had a look at it yesterday.
<TommyBrunn> I'm going to incorporate your changes into the main branch as soon as I can.
<ubuntujenkins> cool I tried to write it as properly as I could
<ubuntujenkins> I suggest copy and paste as the branch that is pulled is my branch and not the main one
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: It's been ages since I wrote any kind of paper in English, so feel free to correct any grammar or spelling mistakes you might come across.
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: sure thing
<humphreybc> I can't change PDFs though
<humphreybc> or do you mean in the application?
<TommyBrunn> No, in the paper. Just write them down in a text document or something, and I'll fix them later.
<humphreybc> okay
<TommyBrunn> Now if you'll excuse me, I have a beautiful, yet awfully cranky girlfriend to wake up.
<humphreybc> dutchie: you still around?
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: Oo is she a swedish blonde?
<TommyBrunn> Haha, no. She's dark haired and she's got dreadlocks, so not quite the traditional swedish bombshell.
<dutchie> yah
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: haha
<humphreybc> dutchie: is android as slick as the iphone OS?
<humphreybc> and have they made lots of improvements in 2.1
<humphreybc> ?
<dutchie> humphreybc: yes and yes
<dutchie> afaik, mine's only 1.5
<humphreybc> yay :)
<humphreybc> because the iphones are very slick and fast
<humphreybc> do the applications have consistency?
<godbyk> consistency, not as much. :-(
<humphreybc> bummer
<humphreybc> anyway
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: nice work on the paper, it looks super slick. OpenOffice or word?
<humphreybc> oooh you even did a Gannt chart :P
<humphreybc> gantt*
<humphreybc> i'm not sure of the spelling :P
<humphreybc> I remember doing those in 6th form for web design
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: haven't got time to read it thoroughly but it's on my desktop and ready for me to read! (my desktop is usually free of icons entirely, so if something is there it means it's urgent :P )
<humphreybc> chow!
<thorwil> i still get File `siunitx.sty' not found.
<thorwil> which package does it belong to?
<godbyk> thorwil: It's in the TL2009 stuff.
<godbyk> I don't know if it exists in TL2007 packages.
<godbyk> You installed 2009 yesterday, right?
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> Did you do a full install or minimal install?
<thorwil> custom
<godbyk> If it's not there, run 'sudo tlmgr' and you can install the siunitx package individually.
<godbyk> (you may need to install the perl-tk library package from ubuntu)
<godbyk> oh, and it's sudo tlmgr --gui for the graphical version.
<godbyk> holler if you need help
 * thorwil -> lunch, first
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> I'll probably be going to bed soon.
<godbyk> I'll be back for the meeting, though.
<godbyk> (If I don't manage to sleep through it.)
<ubuntujenkins> there is no agenda
 * ubuntujenkins looks at the last meeting to see what we have to discuss
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: humphreybc just posted to the mailing list that the meeting is canceled.
<godbyk> He said, "No meeting today. We don't have much to discuss and i'm knackered so we'll give it a miss and take this Saturday off!"
<ubuntujenkins> should I remove my adenda items? I got them from the previous meeting
<ubuntujenkins> thanks for th heads up
<godbyk> May we well leave 'em up for next time.
<ubuntujenkins> sure they are all valid
<thorwil> godbyk: perl-tk does not give me a tlmgr
<godbyk> no, no.. tlmgr comes with the TeX Live 2009 stuff.
<godbyk> if you want to run it with --gui, you'll need the perl-tk libs, though.
<thorwil> godbyk: it's not in my path, if it exist at all
<godbyk> when you ran the texlive install, did you have it create symlinks?
<godbyk> if not, then it won't be in your path.
<thorwil> nothing regarding symlinks got my attention :/
<thorwil> but i found it
<godbyk> thorwil: it was the last checkbox under the options menu.
<godbyk> (you can rerun the installer and have it create the symlinks for ya.)
<thorwil> the installer doesn't recall my settings
<thorwil> which make sme think it's not safe to run again
<ubuntujenkins> I ran the installer twice in one day it was fine for me, i had some how messed up the first go
<godbyk> thorwil: you could try to tell it not to download anything and just create the symlinks.
<godbyk> or you can create 'em manually
<thorwil> sudo ./texlive/2009/bin/x86_64-linux/tlmgr install siunitx didn't lead to an error message, but make still complains
<godbyk> thorwil: Actually, if you run tlmgr --gui, there's an option there to create the symlinks
<godbyk> go to Actions > Handle Symlinks > Update symlinks.
<thorwil> godbyk: now it works, thanks
<godbyk> np
<godbyk> I'm guessing that if the symlinks aren't created, it can't find the kpsewhich program which tells TeX where the packages are located.
 * thorwil thinks the problems with finding/getting stuff are a sign that we still live in the computer stone age
 * godbyk agrees
<godbyk> Those are the sorts of details that I, as a user, shouldn't have to be concerned with.
<godbyk> The system should index everything and find it for me.
<thorwil> godbyk: "Part I \n Start here" still has serifs ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I haven't modified the part stuff at all yet.
<godbyk> Since it's on a page by itself, should we have some fancy graphics there?  (regardless of whether we do chapter icons)
<thorwil> godbyk: the current state makes me confident that we made a good choice on the fonts
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I think they look pretty awesome.
<godbyk> We may have to tweak some things here and there, but they're holding up pretty well so far.
<thorwil> things like "CTRL+H" should be small caps, perhaps?
<godbyk> (There's no bold Greek in the sans serif font, but I can work around that later.)
<godbyk> thorwil: Maybe.  I'll give it a try sometime.
<thorwil> also sans for shortcuts
<godbyk> shortcuts?
<thorwil> keyboard shortcuts like the mentioned CTRL+H
<godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
<thorwil> i wonder if we should use "and" instead of "+"
<godbyk> I think the + is pretty standard nowadays.
<thorwil> cool as long as you don't need to refer to the + key
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> I may change how we specify keystrokes at some point; we'll see how it goes.
<thorwil> evince provides an example
<thorwil> View -> Zoom in has Ctrl++
<thorwil> not to be confused with C++
<godbyk> Fun.
<godbyk> We could use something like http://ctan.org/pkg/keystroke (see the docs).
<godbyk> We can modify it to not look so ugly, too.
<godbyk> Do the shortcuts stay the same across languages?
<thorwil> just wanted to say, looks horrible
<godbyk> yeah, it really does.
<godbyk> but we could steal their idea with the commands and make them look however we like.
<godbyk> maybe a grey background behind the keystrokes or something.  I dunno.
<thorwil> godbyk: afaik shortcuts are bound to the signs, not the keys. otherwise i would have trouble with the Z in place of the Y on my german keyboard, campread to US layout
<thorwil> compared, even
<godbyk> Well, I mean more along the lines of: Is the shortcut for Open File set to Ctrl+O regardless of the language?  Or is it, say, Ctrl+L is some language?
<thorwil> gets fun for signs that are on modifier-key combos in one language, but not in another
<thorwil> godbyk: i think it's always Ctrl+O
<thorwil> if not, our translators should inform us about that
<godbyk> right.  I was just curious.
 * thorwil has his system on english, being so used to it and having been very frustrated with amazingly bad translations of menu commands
<thorwil> godbyk: switching from rectangles to CoFs for bullet points is the close to the worst thing you could do ;p
<godbyk> thorwil: :-P  I know, I did it just for you.
<thorwil> grmbl :)
<godbyk> What kind of bullets would you like?
<godbyk> Plain round bullets are so boring.
<godbyk> And we have so many alternatives to pick from.
<godbyk> You can use any symbol in the fonts we are using.
<thorwil> godbyk: i like simple dashes. simple dots are fine, too. it's not their job to be exciting
<godbyk> Or almost anything from here: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-a4.pdf
<godbyk> They shouldn't be exciting, but since we're using so many of them (apparently), they should convey the same character as the rest of the manual.
<godbyk> And little black circles don't convey anything other than "I'm too lazy to find nice bullets."
<thorwil> no, they convey awareness that the bullet poinst are not much different from a character used in the text and such should not attract more attention than they will do by their position already
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: I got user detection working properly in trunk now.
<TommyBrunn> And now there's a convenient way to remove the user. quickly run --remove or quickly run -r
<TommyBrunn> It also updates itself every time you run it as the quickshot user.
<thorwil> godbyk: Libertine has "bullet" and "trianglebullet" in General Punctuation
<ubuntujenkins> cool I shall do a pull, I think the hardest part is going to change the system language
<godbyk> thorwil: Let me finish typing these translation things real quick and we'll see what it looks like.
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: for single applications it's as easy as: LANG=sv_SE.utf8 gedit
<thorwil> godbyk: in Geometric Shapes, there's uni25C6.
<ubuntujenkins> Yea I know about for a single application I was playing with firefox in german yesterday. Are we going to change the users resolution so that all screenshots are consistant (TommyBrunn)
<thorwil> of course Libertine offers a Tux. would be great alternating with the CoF!!
<TommyBrunn> Not sure. Probably not, as there's the risk that we set it to an unsupported resolution.
<ubuntujenkins> you can get a list of supported resolutions using the xrandr command in bash. If we can search the out put of that for the resolution we want
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: full-screen shots should all have the same resolution
<ubuntujenkins> thorwil do you have any idea how many full-screen shots we need?
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: for single window shots, it would suffice t control the window size (what ever the options for that might be)
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: no, sorry
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: actually, you might also get inconsistent font rendering on shots taken with varying resolution
<TommyBrunn> thorwil: I think they will have to be resized anyway, so what we could do is take the screenshot and then use imagemagick or something to resize it.
<TommyBrunn> As long as the aspect ratio is the same.
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: don't even think of resizing on a not-the-same-number-of-pixels level
<TommyBrunn> Hmm, then we have a problem.
<thorwil> you can't do that with screenshots, because the starting resolution is so damn low
<thorwil> so you would mess up all text and icons
<TommyBrunn> Then what do you propose we do?
<ubuntujenkins> I think we are going to have to launch programs to a partiular size or change the resolution
<ubuntujenkins> of the screen
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: run stuff in a virtual session, with always the same resolution?
<TommyBrunn> We're already running it in a parallel session. The problem with setting it to the same resolution is that everyone might not support the same resolutions.
<ubuntujenkins> what is the ideal resolution for us to achive? some programs look silly at low resolution
<thorwil> anything below 1024 x 768 seems silly for desktop use, these days
<ubuntujenkins> I agree below that buttons start appearing off screen
<TommyBrunn> I suppose that would be a reasonable resolution. Anything beyond netbooks should support that (even netbooks should be fine).
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: that could mean not everyone who wants to can take screenshots. would remain to be seen if it's a number that counts
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Backgrounds#Screen%20Resolution%20and%20Aspect%20Ratio
<godbyk> With the tests I did, it seemed like 800x600 was the best resolution for embedding in the document.
<godbyk> Any higher resolution, and the text is too small to read.
<TommyBrunn> So 800x600 is fine?
<TommyBrunn> I thought it would be the other way around.
<TommyBrunn> That higher resolution = better
<ubuntujenkins> In programs like open office you would never fit the whole tool bar on a 800x600 print screen
<TommyBrunn> True.
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: our document is portrait, screenshots landscape. means they have to be scaled to be quite narrow
<TommyBrunn> Yes, naturally. But if scaling is out of the question, I don't see what choice we have.
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: here i mean scaling on a DPI, not pixel level
<godbyk> Scaling isn't completely out of the question, it's just that scaling the larger images means that the text in the screenshot starts to become unreadable.
<godbyk> (Also, for whatever reason, evince sucks at rendering the graphics.  They may look nice in Adobe Acrobat Reader and like crap in Evince.)
<thorwil> we should likely use cutouts and avoid big shots
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: You can try it out if you like.  Just edit one of the .tex files (like prologue/prologue.tex) and add a line like: \includegraphics[width=\linewidth]{mypic.png} and see how it looks.
<godbyk> thorwil: Some bullet variations: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/
<TommyBrunn> It seems changing the dpi of an image is quite easy in Python.
<TommyBrunn> What dpi would be preferable for the manual?
<ubuntujenkins> If i set my screen to a lower resolution it stretches to fill the screen rather than one corner is that a problem thorwill
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: that shouldn't matter, it'll generate the same png.
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: I don't think that will show in a screenshot
<godbyk> afaik, pngs don't know anything about dpi.  they're just keeping track of raw pixels.
<TommyBrunn> I'm going to go ahead and see what happens if I try.
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: up to 300 dpi for pictures :)
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: okay, try 300 dpi then.
<godbyk> maybe it'll cause pango to render the fonts at 300 dpi and they'll look better in a screenshot.  I haven't any idea.
<thorwil> TommyBrunn: with the screenshots, the question is not how many dpi, but rather: what's the max height or width?
<thorwil> to bad we don't have vector-based UIs
<godbyk> and a way to capture the vector data in a screenshot.
<godbyk> also, the larger the screenshot, the bigger the pdf will be, for what it's worth.
<ubuntujenkins> What about we make a back up of their xorg config, go in edit the xorg to the required resolution, after the change give them 30 seconds to press a button to say that resultion works after we make the change, if not its changed back to the back up
<TommyBrunn> You don't have to edit anything.
<TommyBrunn> You can do that with xrandr, I believe.
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: Only if xrandr is supported.  I can't use it because I'm using twinview with an nvidia graphics card.
<ubuntujenkins> Xrandr was my next suggestion :) I shall check it works on nvidia
<ubuntujenkins> it doesn't :)
 * thorwil goes for a walk
<TommyBrunn> Bleh. This is becoming more complex than I had hoped.
<godbyk> Heh.. nothing worth doing is easy. ;-)
<godbyk> I'm going to get some sleep.  I'll see you guys later.
<godbyk> thorwil: Feel free to fire off ideas for bullets at me.
<TommyBrunn> I do however find it quite amusing that the thing I thought would be the hardest has turned out to be the easiest, and the other way around.
<ubuntujenkins> later godbyk
<TommyBrunn> Good night godbyk
<godbyk> g'night.
<ubuntujenkins> I think I shall look into changing the resolution.
<TommyBrunn> You do that. I'm going to stick my head in the sand for a bit, watch some Stargate and eat chocolate.
<ubuntujenkins> cool have fun, I also have some coursework to do
<cjohnston|cell> dutchie: I need the nicks for all the instructors to add them to the calendar for the bot please
<dutchie> cjohnston|cell: ok
<dutchie> I'll put them up on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours
<cjohnston|cell> :-)
<cjohnston|cell> Ty
<dutchie> cjohnston|cell: done
<cjohnston|cell> Ty. I'm hoping to add to the calendar today
 * ubuntujenkins has just realised the fix for nvidia is staring me in the face :)
<thorwil> godbyk: dots with less space (that is one "space"). or the triangles
<cjohnston> dutchie: did you say that you have an ical with the sessions on it/
<dutchie> cjohnston: yep
<cjohnston> could I get the link please?
<dutchie> http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/itnle7iae2o1usn9f4otc4ijmg@group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
<cjohnston> dutchie: they are now on the official calendar
<dutchie> awesome, thanks
 * popey pokes d0od 
<popey> d0od: let me know when you have a moment
<d0od> popey: i have a moment
<popey> ahh, excellent
<popey> pm?
<cjohnston> its still am
<dutchie> it's 17:08 for popey
<dutchie> (and me)
<cjohnston> :-P
<cjohnston> dutchie: tbc == tbd?
<dutchie> yeah
<dutchie> to be confirmed
<cjohnston> ok
<cjohnston> dutchie: your ical and wiki page dont match
<dutchie> cjohnston: how?
<issyl0> Hello there!
<ubuntujenkins> hello issyl0
<dutchie> hi issyl0
<issyl0> I'm wondering if this team is still active and whether I can join or not, participate in some way?
<issyl0> Well my first question was a bit of a silly one, of course it is still active!
<dutchie> issyl0: we're pretty active, yes
<dutchie> fancy having a look at the french translation?
<dutchie> cjohnston: fixed now
<cjohnston> ty
<cjohnston> dutchie: if you take a look at the events on the classroom ics calendar, you will see the syntax needed for the bot to process properly, if you have to make any other changes
<issyl0> dutchie: hmm, if you want, yeah!  Or en_GB. :)
<issyl0> Thanks
 * issyl0 looks on the wiki
<issyl0> I joined the launchpad team
<dutchie> issyl0: en_GB is done :)
<issyl0> I just noticed!  OK, I'll see what I can do with the French then :)
<dutchie> cjohnston: ok, thanks
<issyl0> OK, I just downloaded the bzr branches for the manual and went and corrected a few things in the installation.tex file - I've read the instructions, but having never used bzr before it's quite confusing - how do I get that back up again without messing it up? :)
<issyl0> I tried:
<issyl0> isabell@desktopone:~/Ubuntu Bzr Branches/ubuntu-manual/installation$ bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual
<issyl0> bzr: ERROR: Working tree "/home/isabell/Ubuntu Bzr Branches/ubuntu-manual/" has uncommitted changes (See bzr status). Use --no-strict to force the push.
<issyl0> Should I do bzr commit -m "reason" and then try again?
<issyl0> :/
<issyl0> Yay, I did it and I think it worked!
 * issyl0 goes hunting on Launchpad
<issyl0> How long does it usually take?
<issyl0> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main - it came up, however not with my launchpad username... what did I do wrong?
<issyl0> I did specify it!
<issyl0> OK, maybe I didn't.  Oh no!
<issyl0> Help, please? :)
<issyl0> OK, I just edited some more stuff and re-commited it and re-pushed it, hopefully it should work properly now :)
<issyl0> Argh it did it again!
 * issyl0 is coming close to giving up, but won't be so defeatist... pleia2?
<pleia2> issyl0: a push just updates your own branch, hang on
<pleia2> ok, here's how the bzr workflow goes:
<issyl0> Oh... but it's not showing in my launchpad, because it hasn't recorded that.. argh!  But I told it my lp username!
<issyl0> OK :)
<pleia2> you create a branch from the truck and it stores it locally
<pleia2> then your "bzr commit" saves changes to that local copy
<issyl0> Hmmm
<pleia2> hm, then a bzr push *should* put it into launchpad
<issyl0> And then you put it on Launchpad, somehow... that's what I've been failing at doing!  Also, why isn't it showing my Lp username like everyone else's revisions in the list do, why's it showing my full name and my computer's host name, which obviously comes direct from my computer, it's not getting that I've set it so that it should know my Lp username is issyl0
<issyl0> Right?
<pleia2> what was the first command you used to get the code?
<pleia2> did you do a branch or a checkout?
<issyl0> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<pleia2> ok
<dutchie> issyl0: have you done 'bzr whoami "Joe Bloggs <joe@example.com>"?
<issyl0> dutchie: I did that before I pushed the second thing I did up
<issyl0> Hmm.. actually, I did it afterwards.
<dutchie> you'd have to do it before committing, but it shouldn't stop you pushing
<issyl0> Oh OK
<issyl0> I'll go and find some more things to change and then recommit and push and hopefully it'll be alright then :)
<pleia2> issyl0: also, do you have a .bazaar/authentication.conf ?
<issyl0> pleia2: er, no...
<issyl0> Not that I know of.
<pleia2> I think that's one of the configuration files I had to set up to make things work propoerly
<pleia2> mine has:
<pleia2> [Launchpad]
<pleia2> host = .launchpad.net
<pleia2> scheme = ssh
<pleia2> user = lyz
<pleia2> I think that will make it so your revisions show up as your lp user
<issyl0> Oh, I do have that already!
<pleia2> ah, ok, what's in your .bazaar/bazaar.conf ?
<issyl0> [DEFAULT]
<issyl0> launchpad_username = issyl0
<issyl0> email = issyl0 <isabell121@gmail.com>
<pleia2> ok, good
<issyl0> So it should be working now?
<pleia2> so yeah, I think your trouble was just authentication, the changes are being pushed up but launchpad doesn't know who they're coming from
<issyl0> Ah right :)
<pleia2> hopefully ok now :)
<issyl0> Thanks pleia2, dutchie!
<issyl0> OK, pushing it back up now.  Hopefully this will work now.  Urgh I never believed one simple thing could descend into madness like that.
<issyl0> I could get to like bazaar, though, useful tool!
<dutchie> git's much better ;)
<issyl0> Yaaaay!
<issyl0> :D
<issyl0> Hmm, doesn't it come up in my launchpad, then?
<dutchie> issyl0: are you pushing to lp:ubuntu-manual?
<issyl0> Yes.
<dutchie> and it doesn't show up at code.launchpad.net/~issyl0?
<issyl0> Nope.
<issyl0> "There are no branches related to issyl0 in Launchpad today"
<dutchie> is there a "Branches related to Ubuntu Manual" at the bottom?
<issyl0> Yes...
<dutchie> it shows up at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main
<dutchie> it's because you don't own the branch yourself
<issyl0> Oh OK
 * issyl0 understands.
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn I think we can use http://willem.engen.nl/projects/disper/ for nvidia (I use it already) and xrandr for intel and xti. I am told that xrandr works with the open driver , for non open drivers is appears more complex. There is some work on a python-xrandr module https://launchpad.net/python-xrandr/ but I can't find how to use it with out getting the deb from launchpad. I was told to look into the subpro
<ubuntujenkins> cess and re modules but these confuse me.
<issyl0> So I won't get karma for it or recognition on my Lp page?  Not that karma is the centre of the world, but hey it's still nice!  I'll still keep doing it :)
<dutchie> I think the karma will appear
<ubuntujenkins> *open ati driver
<dutchie> issyl0: does it show up on https://launchpad.net/~issyl0/+karma?
<ubuntujenkins> it takes a day for karma to show
<issyl0> ubuntujenkins: it takes a day for karma to show in the karma count, the things you earn karma for are auto-updated in that list, just your number of karmas takes a day to get updated.. from my experience :)
<issyl0> dutchie: no
<dutchie> ah well, the code is there, that's the important bit
<issyl0> Yeah :D
<issyl0> Hmm, right, I'm back; time to carry on!
<issyl0> Bah how do I get bzr to update the branch and just refresh the files in the ubuntu-manual folder thing I had before and *not* complain or put it in another folder within that one?  Incredibly annoying if I have duplicates of duplicates!
<issyl0> isabell@desktopone:~/Ubuntu Bzr Branches$ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<issyl0> bzr: ERROR: Target directory "ubuntu-manual" already exists.
<dutchie> bzr pull
<dutchie> inside the directory
<issyl0> Ah, thanks! :D
<issyl0> Brilliant.
<issyl0> I can see I'm going to like this.
<cjohnston|cell> dutchie: Ping
<dutchie> cjohnston|cell: pong
<cjohnston|cell> dutchie: 1300 utc tomorrow for testing the classbot + training for instructors
<dutchie> OK, I'll post to the list
<cjohnston|cell> In ##ubuntu-cr and ##ubuntu-cr-chat
<dutchie> OK
<cjohnston|cell> If you could email that would be wonderful
<dutchie> Mm/whois cjohnston|cell
<dutchie> bother
<cjohnston|cell> Hmm?
<dutchie> just wanted to check your name :)
<cjohnston|cell> Chris Johnston
<TommyBrunn> Do any of you have any good guides on how to get started with Latex? A friend of a friend has decided to write some thesis paper using it, but he seems to lack any kind of experience with it.
<TommyBrunn> I figured you guys would be the experts.
<TommyBrunn> Hey Benjamin
<TommyBrunn> Or should I say, good morning.
<TommyBrunn> (Time zones confuse me...)
<dutchie> just stick with hi, it's time independent :)
<TommyBrunn> True enough.
<dutchie> the latex wikibook is quite good
<TommyBrunn> It seems he would prefer a paper (you know, the thing they used to have before screens?) edition. But I suppose he could just print it out. Do you have a link for that?
<dutchie> there is a classic latex book
<dutchie> The LaTeX Companion is the ultimate reference iirc
<TommyBrunn> Thank you, dutchie
<dutchie> I think it might be quite heavyweight though
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: ping
<dutchie> http://www.latex-project.org/guides/
<TommyBrunn> ping
<TommyBrunn> pong
<humphreybc> i just read your quickshot paper
<humphreybc> it's good, but a few things that I would put in:
<humphreybc> I think you need to explain the alternative of how we would have to capture screenshots if we didn't use a program
<humphreybc> it'll make the program sound more necessary/important
<TommyBrunn> Hehe, alright. Anything else?
<humphreybc> Also, I know you've linked to launchpad etc but haven't really explained what it is
<humphreybc> and
<humphreybc> in the user scenario - why do we need to create a new user? you need to explain why we need the default desktop
<humphreybc> the steps look good from someone who understands how ubuntu works and what quickshot needs to do
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, I did think about that. I had a reason for not including it in the scenario, but I can't seem to remember what it was. So it was probably not a very good reason.
<TommyBrunn> I'll add that in there.
<humphreybc> but for your HODs or lecturers, who probably don't know much about ubuntu, you'd need to explain that
<humphreybc> aaand third page: "which in turn draws handles the interface, signals and events, etc."
<humphreybc> either draws or handles :P
<TommyBrunn> Oh. Good catch.
<TommyBrunn> I'll get those things fixed right away
<humphreybc> would they know what bazaar is?
<TommyBrunn> Thanks for proof reading it for me.
<TommyBrunn> I would certainly hope so. Or at least that they know what version control is. I'll add a short explanation
<humphreybc> haha okay
<humphreybc> are you in week 8 of your year already at uni?
<TommyBrunn> No. This is my second term. I'm guessing gnome planner just starts counting the weeks from the start of the year.
<humphreybc> oh and just a wee niggle, could you make the quickshot logo as the user avatar? :P
<TommyBrunn> That I will do.
<humphreybc> and you could include the quickshot logo/banner in your paper - it'll make it look more like a "real" program :D
<humphreybc> I'm just trying to think of ways to make quickshot/UMP sound more impressive
<humphreybc> oh yeah and the Ubuntu Manual Project's abbreviation is UMP - not UM :)
<humphreybc> "I am sure there are other potential contributors whom I could have me assist upon request." - last page
<humphreybc> "whom I could have assist me upon request"
<TommyBrunn> Oops
<humphreybc> or "whom I could request assistance from" etc
<TommyBrunn> Alright. I'll have that fixed in no time.
<humphreybc> also I start my python labs on the 1st march so anything you get stuck with let me know and i'll ask the lab tutors/lecturers to have a look
<TommyBrunn> Well, earlier today we were discussing a problem which gave quite the headache (which I promptly remedied with wine and chocolate); namely dealing with resolutions
<humphreybc> screenshot resolutions?
<humphreybc> it's going to be a pain in the bum
<TommyBrunn> Screen resolutions, more specifically.
<humphreybc> right
<TommyBrunn> All the full screen shots should be the same resolution.
<humphreybc> well
<IlyaHaykinson> OMG. the pizza company has an online tracking system with a web service. tells you the manager's name, delivery driver's name, what time and for how long the pizza was in the oven or on the rack getting checked.
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm in pizza tracking heaven.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: we've had that in NZ for quite some time?
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: well we are aiming for only one or two full screen shots in the manual
<humphreybc> which would be 40 or 80 :)
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe they had it here too for a while, i have no idea... i'm still really thrilled though :)
<humphreybc> so we'd just need to find two or three people with the same resolution to take them
<humphreybc> or just one person with a lot of time....
<humphreybc> haha
<IlyaHaykinson> i think all screenshots should be done from the same VM.
<humphreybc> but that means we have to download a VM for them and virtualbox install it etc
<IlyaHaykinson> so that one person can set up the VM in a standard way, and multiple people could do snapshots
<humphreybc> which would take a long time....
<humphreybc> the original idea was that since the user already has ubuntu installed, we could just use what they've got already
<IlyaHaykinson> well, otherwise we would have to download and install lucid in a VM anyways
<IlyaHaykinson> i really don't think that any of us run completely clean installs though
<IlyaHaykinson> we all have some customizations.
<IlyaHaykinson> and we all have different usernames.
<humphreybc> but a new user should be clean
<humphreybc> in theory
<TommyBrunn> That's why we create a new user account
<IlyaHaykinson> which means inconsistency across screenshots
<TommyBrunn> Those are generic
<humphreybc> unless you've played around with the guest account like i have
<TommyBrunn> Yes. But unless you are a compulsive tinkerer, that shouildn't be a problem.
<humphreybc> I don't think we should force the user to download: virtualbox, lucid ISO or VM AND the bzr branch of screenshots. We're looking at about 3GB right theere
<humphreybc> that will put a lot of people off
<humphreybc> it's aimed at people already testing lucid
<humphreybc> at on march 18th, the lucid beta comes out anyway. It's an LTS so the beta should be very stable.
<IlyaHaykinson> wouldn't the application list have more things though?
<humphreybc> that's true - but we don't have that many shots of the application menu?
<IlyaHaykinson> well, i was suggesting that only a few people do the main screenshots work
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. 2-3
<humphreybc> it would take them a long time to capture so many shots
<humphreybc> we're talking over 2000 here
<IlyaHaykinson> and the virtualbox export compresses to about 1.5GB
<humphreybc> that's the point of quickshot, to enable the masses of lucid testers to be able to capture them for us
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess.
<IlyaHaykinson> hang on pizza here
<humphreybc> and we can use it in the global jam
<humphreybc> so all those people can just screenshot
<humphreybc> :)
<TommyBrunn> I'm going to switch over to my girlfriend's computer to work on my paper. Be back in a bit.
<humphreybc> we just have to find a way to work around the resolution and the application menu. these aren't huge problems, it's better than forcing them to download a 1.5GB VM and a 1GB+ branch of screenshots (if we go that way)
<humphreybc> the way I see it is that the user already has ubuntu on their computer, and our target user base is already testing lucid, so we just have to make a new user to get the default theme/icons/pointer etc and wallah
 * humphreybc is going to start making slideshows for 48 hours now - can someone have a look at my topic breakdown and see if I've missed anything? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours/humphreybc
<issyl0> Hmm, I'm sure I had it earlier - what's the Wiki page I think from Ubuntu Manual that has really clear instructions on how to get bzr working?
<issyl0> (That I failed to read entirely :P)
<dutchie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help?
<issyl0> Yeah.  Gosh I'm dense sometimes!  Thanks, again!
<humphreybc> dutchie: what's the latest version of latex called that we have to have for translations? Texlive 2009?
<humphreybc> XeLaTeX 2009?
<dutchie> upstream TL 2009
<humphreybc> cool
<dutchie> though it might work with the repo one in Lucid
<humphreybc> dutchie: could you give me a one sentence summary of what po4a does
<humphreybc> please ;)
<dutchie> The po4a (po for anything) project goal is to ease translations (and more interestingly, the maintenance of translations) using gettext tools on areas where they were not expected like documentation.
<dutchie> from http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/
<humphreybc> okay, dutchie, godbyk, IlyaHaykinson what are you email addresses?
<IlyaHaykinson> haykinson@gmail.com
<humphreybc> (save me looking up my gmail contacts)
<TommyBrunn> There, I'm all done with my report now (I think)
<TommyBrunn> Eh, not report; project plan, paper, whatever.
<TommyBrunn> Now to add the quickshot logo as the user avatar.
<dutchie> humphreybc: jrh@joshh.co.uk
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: what program did you use to create the logo?
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: I may have used photoshop...
<humphreybc> :)
<TommyBrunn> Nevermind. Doesn't matter
<humphreybc> who do we need on this project?
<humphreybc> authors, editors, programmers, designers etc
<humphreybc> who else?
<IlyaHaykinson> readers :)
<IlyaHaykinson> btw we still have no takers for Jamin's slot?
<humphreybc> not as yet
<humphreybc> i don't really want to do 5 sessions
<humphreybc> 4 is quite enough and i have to start at 4am too :S
<IlyaHaykinson> well, technically you're doing 10, not 5
<IlyaHaykinson> er, 9
<humphreybc> oh yeah
<humphreybc> i don't mean doing the actual sessions, but creating the slides takes a bit of time
<humphreybc> i said to jamin if he could create me some slides I'll do it
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah. i've been working on my slides for a while now.
 * dutchie is not sure if he can be bothered with slides
<dutchie> do I have to do them?
<dutchie> (\usepackage{beamer} for an easy way to do slides)
<humphreybc> you don't *have* to
<humphreybc> but it gives people something to look at while you're typing...
<humphreybc> you could point them to parts of the wiki instead of making slides
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours/humphreybc?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=intro.pdf
<humphreybc> what does everyone think?
<ubuntujenkins> I think the resolution problem isn't as bad as previously thought as long as we can detect, the users current resoultion and the driver in use. With the use of xrandr and disper it might work
 * ubuntujenkins looks at slides
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc looks good a few minor things. You have made all links click able except the one on slide 3. you  have mentioned twice about being released every six months on slide 2 and 4.  I would may be make the text bigger as when I last used lernid the slides were shown rather small.
<TommyBrunn> It struck me earlier today that it would be a lot easier to just have Quickshot check what locale you're using, and only present those shots to you. If you want to take screenshots in some other language, you can use the gnome language selection thingy, and that handles everything for you.
<TommyBrunn> It would be about a gazillion times easier for us.
<ubuntujenkins> I think that makes more sense, that way the translators could do their own languages and those of us who want to can do the others in a funny language.
<ubuntujenkins> on the other hand it makes doing the same screenshot in all the langages very hard
<TommyBrunn> Yes, that's the downside of it. But from what I can tell, there's no smoother way to handle changing language.
<TommyBrunn> Every other way includes editing startup scripts and restarting the session.
<ubuntujenkins> I know, we could do the ones that require only windows and not whole desktop.
<TommyBrunn> I suppose. But that makes it even harder for us. Maybe that could be a feature to add in there is time.
<TommyBrunn> *if
<ubuntujenkins> sounds like a plan, I think we can change the resoultion but my skills don't stretch to implementing it in python
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<TommyBrunn> If you can implement it in bash, or at least provide me with some pseudo-code, I could probably translate it into Python.
<dutchie> os.system(ubuntujenkins_bash)
<dutchie> :)
<TommyBrunn> I'm going to go to bed now. The combination of sleep deprivation and wine consumption has left me with only about a quarter of a brain.
<ubuntujenkins> I shall have a go but I can only do the test the nvidia stuff
<TommyBrunn> I have an ATI card in my girlfriend's computer, so I can test on that.
<TommyBrunn> But that'll have to wait until tomorrow.
<TommyBrunn> Good night everyone
<ubuntujenkins> night
<ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson what were your thoughts on screen shots for the bits i wrote? I was thinking about one for account setting up in empathy. but not sure about the rest
<IlyaHaykinson> i agree, setting up an account could use one. definitely one screenshot per main screen of each app, in general.
<ubuntujenkins> cheers dutchie thats one of the few i understand :)
<IlyaHaykinson> the rest probably don't need to be full window screenshots, just any little clarifying zoom-ins on particular parts if needed
<ubuntujenkins> Ok I thought that was to many screen shots, I shall add the commands in tomorrow
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: few what? bits of python?
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: of python bit out of order but i got distracted
<ubuntujenkins> like to say thanks to people
<ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson: is there anything else I can do to help as tomboy will be done tomorrow
<IlyaHaykinson> hm. i think we may want to decide on splitting up the openoffice portions... i'm not moving as fast as i wanted to.
<IlyaHaykinson> let me think about it and i'll email you later on today
<ubuntujenkins> openoffice is a marathon and a half, I am quite happy to get as much as I can done.  I look forward to your e-mail, thanks
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<godbyk> humphreybc: My email is godbyk@gmail.com, if you haven't looked it up already.
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-21
<humphreybc> okay guys i've just pimped the 48 hours on a whole heap of mailing lists and facebook
<humphreybc> i love the sentence i constructed that totally sells it :P
<humphreybc> "Want to help out with Ubuntu but don't know much about programming or how to contribute? The Ubuntu Manual Project makes it easy for people of all levels of experience and areas of talent to help out! From authors to design to programming, we've got it covered - and you can learn how to get involved by joining us at 48Â Hours of Ubuntu Manual Learning this Monday and Tuesday!"
<humphreybc> so yes, we have to totally make this event ROCK!
 * godbyk starts working on his slides...
<humphreybc> godbyk: yeah i have to do some more slides... eek
<godbyk> Also, I'm apparently going to have to just take short naps for the next three days.  Time zones suck!
<humphreybc> yeah tell me about
<godbyk> humphreybc: what did you want to email me about before?
<humphreybc> oh nothing, i just wanted to put the email addresses of the key people in one of my slides
<humphreybc> i hope you guys don't mind, if you do I _can_ take them out but i'd prefer them to be there
<godbyk> ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> doesn't bother me.
<godbyk> I can hit 'delete' as easily as anything else. ;-)
 * humphreybc 172 fans on facebook is pretty impressive i must say
<humphreybc> i think we need to revamp the ubuntu manual logo
<humphreybc> i might do that
<godbyk> Do it now then so I can use it in my slides. :)
<humphreybc> don't have time, maybe later :D
<humphreybc> don't worry about the logo in the slides
<humphreybc> I just used the "Ubuntu human" template in open office
<humphreybc> it looks okay
<godbyk> Do you have the source files for the Ubuntu Manual 48-hours logo someplace?
<humphreybc> I do but they're PSD
<godbyk> I'm using LaTeX beamer.
<humphreybc> and not transparant - hence why I need to make a new one
<godbyk> Heathen!
<humphreybc> yeah I know, I bought an android cellphone, run ubuntu on my laptop and server and install ubuntu on all my family and friends' computers, but i will not part from photoshop!
<humphreybc> but they tell me the next version of gimp is very very good
<humphreybc> and apparently better than photoshop!
<humphreybc> so i might have to switch :D
<godbyk> You should at least use inkscape for the simple logos like that.  vector graphics are nice.
<humphreybc> yeah i need to have a play with inkscape
<humphreybc> haven't got round to it yet
<humphreybc> one of these days
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> It's pretty awesome.
<humphreybc> i have heard great things about t
<humphreybc> it*
<godbyk> are we supposed to use any particular theme for slides? or just do our own thing?
<humphreybc> just do whatever you like
<humphreybc> you're in charge of the class
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> OH THE POWER! haha
<humphreybc> right i'm heading out for the afternoon, talk to ya'll later. i'll be on all night because i have to stay up till 2am for this session with cjohnston
<cjohnston> 2am hmm?
<cjohnston> I guess he is gone
 * humphreybc found a headset in one of his drawers full of computer stuff! Now I can make that ground control how to video and it will actually sound good!
<humphreybc> btw, who has skype?
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> humphreybc: pong
<godbyk> I have skype
<humphreybc> is there a list of latex commands somewhere?
<humphreybc> ie
<humphreybc> not generic ones
<humphreybc> but ones you've created for us
<godbyk> Not yet.  There will be once I finish my handout for the 48-hours thing, though.
<humphreybc> and what's your skype username? not that I need to call you but I'm trying to make my contact list look a little less sad with 6 people :)
<humphreybc> awesome
<godbyk> Mine's godbyk.
<humphreybc> oO a handout :D
<humphreybc> also i just added a 48 hours folder to the branch with some of my stuff in it
<godbyk> well, a lot of the stuff doesn't really work on slides.  Who wants to flip through slides to find something if they can have a booklet instead?
<godbyk> But I'm doing the slides first, and then I'll work on the handout.
<humphreybc> if you could put your stuff in there too that'd be neat. then people can use it as help after we actually do 48 hours, i'll rename the folder to "Help Documents"
<humphreybc> and i'll reorganize it from username based stuff to topic based help with all the slides/handouts/material from 48 hours
<godbyk> maybe just name it 'docs'?
<godbyk> (btw, spaces in folder names can occasionally cause problems, I'd avoid 'em.)
<humphreybc> I want to folder to stand out amongst all the chapter folders
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> well maybe "HELP" haha
<humphreybc> or just "help"
<godbyk> heh
<humphreybc> I think it'll be yet another valuable resource to point newbies :D
<godbyk> yep
<humphreybc> i love it how we're writing help documentation, but we have our own help documentation....
<godbyk> :)
<humphreybc> so we're writing help documentation for the project that's writing help documentation for the OS that's designed to help users get things done. man we're sooo nice.
<IlyaHaykinson> my PC is clearly too slow to run Open Office happily.
<IlyaHaykinson> but i cannot succumb to buying another machine.
<IlyaHaykinson> i already feel like i have too many.
<IlyaHaykinson> two work desktops, a work laptop, a personal netbook, and a home desktop. another machine and i'll start going crazy! :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> combine them all together into one crazy super computer :D
<IlyaHaykinson> well, they're not all in one place. plus i can't carry a crazy super computer around, it'll be too heavy :)
<TommyBrunn> Not if you mount it onto some sort of backpack rack!
<IlyaHaykinson> clearly that's my answer ;-)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> hey thorwil, how do you spell your last name correctly?
<humphreybc> and do you have any objections to me putting your email address in one of the slides for 48 hours?
<thorwil> humphreybc: hi. Wilms
<thorwil> humphreybc: why would you do that?
<humphreybc> okay cool. there's a slide where I introduce the key members of our project
<humphreybc> and everyone has their email address, but i wanted to make sure it was okay
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, pushed my slides; going to bed.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think i'll skip the training in 4 hrs, it's just bad timing for me. humphreybc, if you're up, can you keep a log and send it to me, just in case?
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: cool, catchya later :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: it's ok, my email address is hardly a secret
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yep I can do that
<thorwil> and all email harvesters have it already
<humphreybc> thorwil: okay cool, thanks
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: thx.
<TommyBrunn> Got the account face avatar thingy working now. No idea why it didn't work last night, as I haven't changed a single line of code since then.
<humphreybc> welcome to programming :P
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc We need to decide on how to structure the screenshot branches.
<TommyBrunn> My vote goes for having a separate branch for each language.
<humphreybc> yep me too
<dutchie> humphreybc: jshhholland on skype
<dutchie> you can be my first contact
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> hey so dutchie what's all this about the training thing?
<dutchie> 19:46:20 < cjohnston|cell> dutchie: 1300 utc tomorrow for testing the classbot + training for instructors
<dutchie> 19:46:38 < cjohnston|cell> In ##ubuntu-cr and ##ubuntu-cr-chat
<dutchie> that's all I know
<humphreybc> okay cool
<TommyBrunn> So, I'm not sure how we're supposed to deal with the branches. We need to create branches that anyone can push to, I guess. But I have no idea how to go about doing this.
<TommyBrunn> And where should the branches be? In the ubuntu manual Launchpad project
<dutchie> how about lp:~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/screenshots-LANG?
<TommyBrunn> Sure. Speaking of which, I guess we don't have to worry about having multiple versions of the same language? Like en_US and en_UK (or whatever it is), for example.
<dutchie> why would you have to worry?
<TommyBrunn> Well, there could be minor differences between the two - although they should be negligible.
<humphreybc> noo
<humphreybc> we don't want to put them in the ubuntu manual branch
<humphreybc> we want to keep them separate
<humphreybc> we need en_US and en_UK
<humphreybc> because they are "languages"
<humphreybc> and are diffferent
<TommyBrunn> So you will distribute two English versions of the manual then?
<humphreybc> I suggest we either tie them to the quickshot project, or create another project entirely just for screenshots
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: yep
<humphreybc> and the en_US will be US Letter size, the en_UK will be A4 sized
<TommyBrunn> I see.
<humphreybc> it's all very fun :)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> and the readers are very lucky to have so many options
<TommyBrunn> Anyway, it doesn't really matter to me, as long as someone creates them and we have a simple way of organizing them.
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> we need to give everyone write access to those branches too
<humphreybc> i need to talk to the lp guys to see how we can do it
<humphreybc> afaik launchpad has never been used in this way before
<TommyBrunn> And what about when the user wants to push their changes. Should we keep it simple and just have them push straight to quickshot/screenshots/screenshot_en_US (or whatever), or should we have them push to ~username/quickshot/screenshots/screenshot_en_US and then somehow create a merge request?
<humphreybc> eek
<humphreybc> KISS
<humphreybc> keep it simple simon
<humphreybc> merging could get very very very messy
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.
<humphreybc> you could grab some code from ground control
<humphreybc> lp:groundcontrol
<humphreybc> i know martin well, he could help too
<humphreybc> well, he doesn't have enough time to actually help, but he does know a lot about launchpad and bzr now
<TommyBrunn> You have mentioned this Martin character a number of times now, yet I still have no idea who he is. :D
<humphreybc> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/~doctormo
<humphreybc> doctormo on IRC
<humphreybc> dutchie: anyone pick up editing?
<dutchie> humphreybc: not as far as i've heard
<humphreybc> eek
<ubuntujenkins> can as many people as possible please run  "lshw | grep -C +11 display" and paste the output here http://paste.ubuntu.com/ it will help with quickshot, thank you.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: http://paste.ubuntu.com/380901/
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: http://paste.ubuntu.com/380902/
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc what driver are you using the open ati or the proprietary one?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: I'm using the open source ati one
<dutchie> http://pastebin.com/f41b61d31
<ubuntujenkins> thanks people now to ask on a busy channel
<godbyk> Okay, what have I forgotten? http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/um-latex-slides.pdf
<godbyk> (I'm getting tired and my brain's fried.)
<godbyk> brb.. need water
<godbyk> back
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk  it good only one thing i notieced. On slide 13 you have Applications>Accessories........... I think the use of arrows goes against the style guide https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide#Formatting
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Actually, the very first thing mentioned under that heading is what I'm demonstrating.
<godbyk> (I'm renaming the \nav command to \menu, btw.)
<ubuntujenkins> O now that heading has changed but its now contradicts its self it tells you to use arrows but underneath tells you not to use arrows.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't mind as long as the manual is consistent
<godbyk> Well, from a style standpoint, it's frowned upon.  My talk is about LaTeX, though, so I'm just teaching the commands.
<godbyk> In short, you're allowed to use the arrows, but it's not the preferred way.
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough I was being picky :) It did teach me something I need to change \menuitem with \menu
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: yep.  though I haven't committed that code yet. :-)
<ubuntujenkins> right glad you told me that I was going to do find and replace on my stuff
<c7p> hey guys, i ve got a question about tommorow's meeting, #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat channels will host same teacher at the same time?
<godbyk> I'll give you a heads up when I've fixed all that.
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks
<dutchie> c7p: what do you mean? I think we will have our teachers in both channels, if that's what you want
<godbyk> c7p: I think both channels will be used.
<godbyk> Phrased another way: You should join both channels as they'll be used together.
 * humphreybc finished recording a ground control step by step walkthrough video... i sound very very very quiet haha
<c7p> thx
<dutchie> c7p: alternatively, try Jono's Lernid program
<dutchie> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lernid
<c7p> yeah i read the wiki
<dutchie> godbyk: what is the exact reason we need TL2009? (for my talk on building translations)
<godbyk> Because we're using the polyglossia package to handle the different languages.  And it's not available for TL2007.
<godbyk> Also, the glossary stuff (when I get to it) will require TL2009.
<dutchie> cheers
<godbyk> The glossary stuff in TL2007 is woefully out of date and not as nice.
 * humphreybc is rendering the video... exciting! 
<humphreybc> i think this is the nicest screencast i have made
<c7p> what is it about?
<humphreybc> it's a video for the ground control session i'm teaching tomorrow :)
<c7p> nice :)
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> now i just have to make some slides for the other sessions and we should all be good
<humphreybc> Looking through Ilya's slides, i can't think of much one would say in the editing session that he hasn't already covered
<humphreybc> pitivi dont fail me now
<c7p> ok teachers cya tomorrow ;)
<humphreybc> so dutchie how does lernid actually present the slides?
<dutchie> it splits the top section in half and shows them in there iirc
<humphreybc> ah okay
<humphreybc> can i show a youtube video there instead?
<dutchie> don't think so
<dutchie> but it does automatically open any links you paste
<dutchie> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4303297886_034bfa5e5d_o.jpg
<humphreybc> oh what the hell
<humphreybc> pitivi you suck!
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc are you still doing a session at 1500 the wiki says you are but the schedule in lernid says not. I will be in a lab at that time and will run home in between.
<humphreybc> yep my first session is at 1500
<ubuntujenkins> cool web irc it is I can see not lab work being done :)
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc if PiTiVi is failing you, you should give Openshot a go. It's a great deal more stable.
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: yeah i'll give openshot a go in a sec. pitivi is all good until it tries to render something
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc flash does work in lernid watching youtube now.
<humphreybc> i think it's actually something to do with the .ogv format
<ubuntujenkins> I found .avi worked in pitvi
<humphreybc> what muxers etc did you use?
<humphreybc> i've tried to change the settings for encoding but i couldn't get anything to work apart from .ogv which semi worked
<ubuntujenkins> the pre set ones worked for me
<issyl0> Hello!
<humphreybc> the preset ones render to .ogv, regardless of whether you change the file extension to .avi or anything else
<humphreybc> it's a bit shit, to use some french.
<ubuntujenkins> click the modiy button then choose avi in the container drop down
<ubuntujenkins> hello issyl0
<humphreybc> righto, and audio?
<humphreybc> it seems to hate when the video goes from a still image to a video
<issyl0> ubuntujenkins: hi, I'm hoping to be able to help out more today now that bzr and Lp work :)
<ubuntujenkins> sounds like a plan issyl0
<humphreybc> so just the avimuxer you reckon... hmm
<ubuntujenkins> just running a tes now
<ubuntujenkins> *test
<issyl0> ubuntujenkins: definitely :)
<ubuntujenkins> http://imagebin.org/85807 works for me you can change the fps (humphreybc)
<humphreybc> hmm okay
<humphreybc> see my source video is only 15FPS
<ubuntujenkins> issyl0 would you mind running "lshw | grep -C +11 display" and paste the output here http://paste.ubuntu.com/ it will help with quickshot for the ubuntu manual project, thanks
<humphreybc> because recordmydesktop is also pretty gay
<humphreybc> audio/video in linux is terrible
<humphreybc> with a capital T, so it's Terrible
 * humphreybc has to stop using gay as a bad word when talking to people outside of NZ
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: are you trying to get some information on what type of resolutions people are using for quickshot?
<ubuntujenkins> choose custom that allows you to choose 12fps
<humphreybc> so should i choose a lower FPS than the source input?
<ubuntujenkins> I am trying to detect the driver in use first then I will work on the resoultion
<ubuntujenkins> well choosing higher will make no difference, just try a few and give it a go
<humphreybc> omg yay avi actually worked
<humphreybc> nickserv help
<humphreybc> wait
<issyl0> Hehe
<humphreybc> how do i change to the admin thing so i can remove that next meeting thing?
<humphreybc> i've forgotten
<issyl0>  /msg chanserv #ubuntu-manual op
<humphreybc> thanks!
<issyl0> And then /topic ....
<humphreybc> didn't work
<dutchie> op #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> ah
<issyl0> It should have done...
<humphreybc> other way around :)
<issyl0> Aaah
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
 * issyl0 headdesks at the failure - I need to get back into freenode again! :O
 * issyl0 did just succeed at making bzr work with her laptop though :)
 * humphreybc is totally listening to the bladerunner soundtrack
<humphreybc> issyl0: are you a girl? don't see many of them round these parts!
<issyl0> humphreybc: I am indeed, however I don't see what that's got to do with anything!  But no, you don't, and it's good I'm getting involved I guess!
<humphreybc> it doesn't have anything to do with anything, i'm just impressed :)
<issyl0> Ah, well er thanks!
<humphreybc> lol
<issyl0> I really want to get more involved with Ubuntu and do more to help, so I thought why not join the manual project :)
<cjohnston> humphreybc: I just want to confirm before changing the official learning events calendar, you got rid of the editing process class?
<humphreybc> heh well yep we're a pretty funky project xD
<humphreybc> cjohnston: yep
<humphreybc> what's on our wiki now should be final
<humphreybc> and then the PDF slides and stuff will trickle in for lernid today and tomorrow, but i think dutchie is handling that
<cjohnston> is the wiki the same as the ical
<dutchie> I will if you give me URLS
<humphreybc> dutchie: ^^
<humphreybc> yep i'll get URLs for stuff soon
<dutchie> yes, the ical and wiki are in sync
<cjohnston> ty
<humphreybc> so cjohnston what are we going to learn in 40 minutes?
<cjohnston> how to use the bot... the bot will change topics for each class, set the channel to moderated, give voice to instructors
<humphreybc> awesome :)
<cjohnston> plus, handle the questions from ubuntu-classroom-chat
<cjohnston> you can review the question via a pm, and then accept/reject the question
<humphreybc> sounds like fun
<humphreybc> so we do the teaching from an IRC client, not lernid, right?
<humphreybc> lernid simply gives a UI for viewing what's happening in a chatroom as well as showing a website and a PDF file in windows, correct?
<cjohnston> i havent looked in a while, but last i checked, there wasnt a way for you to speak in lernid
<cjohnston> as of now, that is correct
<humphreybc> sweet
<cjohnston> there is plans for an instructor module
<humphreybc> cool
<cjohnston> But I don't believe that is anytime soon
<humphreybc> can we as instructors connect to lernid as a guest to make sure everything's running alright?
<humphreybc> (from the user's perspective)
<dutchie> of course
<dutchie> nothing to stop you
<humphreybc> okay cool
<dutchie> you'll need a different nick though
<humphreybc> just making sure :)
<humphreybc> i think the Lithuanians are taking over our wiki :P
<ubuntujenkins> why?
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lithuanian
<humphreybc> it's cool though
<humphreybc> might go check out #ubuntu-manual-lt
<ubuntujenkins> nice to people are enthusiastic
<humphreybc> i know it's great :)
 * humphreybc 61% of the video uploaded to youtube... gotta love slow upload speeds. not.
<issyl0> Ha
<humphreybc> dutchie: is there any way for us to actually see how many translators are working on the project?
<dutchie> dunno
<humphreybc> does rosetta give us some stats
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> i'll have a look
<humphreybc> doesn't look like it
<humphreybc> not very important, just interesting
<ziroday> I gotta say, the proposed manual cover is really shiny
<ziroday> congrats to the artists
<humphreybc> which one is that ziroday? the current one in the branch or the one in the ML?
<ziroday> humphreybc: one in the branch
<humphreybc> okay yeah, that's going to be refined even more very soon
<ziroday> similar to http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MOCs5B8LekE/S0w8KkYW8_I/AAAAAAAAAZ8/oNDJTv5n52w/s1600-h/Cover-lower.png
<humphreybc> there's a big announcement to be made on the 25th at the end of this week
<ziroday> ooh, can't wait :)
<humphreybc> that's going to affect our style :)
<humphreybc> and colours etc
<ziroday> well so far it looks very shiny
<ubuntujenkins> is it a good or bad thing then?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: it's a good thing
<ubuntujenkins> cool can't wait
<ziroday> ubuntujenkins: progress is never a bad thing ;)
<ubuntujenkins> true
<humphreybc> and it's not just for the manual, it's for all of ubuntu. i can't tell you any more, but just keep an eye on the planet around 1800 UTC on the 25th
<ubuntujenkins> I will be refreshing it loads then :)
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> Boy, life would be a lot easier for me if everyone used the Latin alphabet. :-)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> so dutchie where are we going? ##ubuntu-cr?
<dutchie> and ##ubuntu-cr-chat
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> i'm the only one in ##ubuntu-cr-chat
<dutchie> humphreybc: you're not in it at all
<humphreybc> oh must have typed it wrong
<komsas> dutchie: how often u sync translations? Every time when u did that, I want to create lithuanian PDF version.
<dutchie> daily-ish
<humphreybc> komsas: godbyk is working on a build server for us that will hopefully sync translations and compile daily builds of all the languages
<humphreybc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeNXqfofbWk
<komsas> oh, awesome!
<humphreybc> youtube is still rendering it
<humphreybc> but when they're finished it should be in 720P high def :)
 * ubuntujenkins watches the video
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: you might want to wait for about 10 mins so youtube can render it better
<ubuntujenkins> I watch it twice :)
<humphreybc> dutchie: currently gertrude isn't in #ubuntu-manual?
<dutchie> got netsplitted :(
<humphreybc> ?
<dutchie> manualbot: ping
<manualbot> pong
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> that always cracks me up
<humphreybc> Ground Control video has been processed, now up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeNXqfofbWk
<humphreybc> view it in HD! yay!
<ubuntujenkins> if you change your resolution with xrandr does it effect all users? Also if you log out and log back in does it revert to the original resolution?
<humphreybc> i'm heading off to bed, 3am here. night everyone!
<godbyk> I'm heading off to bed, too.  It's 8 a.m. here. :)
<humphreybc> nice
<ubuntujenkins> night
<ubuntujenkins> * has nvidia working for quickshot now to ati and intel this is going to be harder.
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie can you post your xrandr output please http://paste.ubuntu.com/
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: http://pastebin.com/f47f9fc8e
<ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: You want my xrandr output as well? I've got an intel chip in this computer, and an ATi card in my girlfriend's.
<ubuntujenkins> yes please TommyBrunn if you could also do "lshw -C display" that would be brilliant. Is your girlfriends laptop using the open ati driver?
<TommyBrunn> xrandr: http://paste.ubuntu.com/381009/
<ubuntujenkins> which computer is that?
<TommyBrunn> Mine. lshw: http://paste.ubuntu.com/381011/
<TommyBrunn> My girlfriend is not using the free driver
<TommyBrunn> She's using the proprietary one
<TommyBrunn> Do you want the output from that computer too?
<TommyBrunn> lshw -C display. Girlfriend's computer: http://paste.ubuntu.com/381012/
<ubuntujenkins> please I need a proprietary ati
<TommyBrunn> Well, xrandr doesn't work on that computer.
<ubuntujenkins> I had a feeling that might be the case thanks
<ubuntujenkins> well the program SHOULD work for nvidia, intel and ati using the open driver
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn on your computer what does  "xrandr --output HDMI1 --off" give?
<TommyBrunn> Why would I want to disable my HDMI out?
<ubuntujenkins> Well for xrandr you have to specify which output to change we can't grantee how many screens people have. I just need to work out if turning off a non connected display causes a massive error.
<TommyBrunn> Heh. We'll see what happens.
<TommyBrunn> Nothing at all happened.
<ubuntujenkins> good, Idealy there would be an xrandr clone all option which is what I have done for nvidia. thanks
<ubuntujenkins> has anyone got dual screens and an xti(Open driver only) or intel card?
 * ubuntujenkins can change the screen resolution for quickshot. It could be a fun testing period :P
<ubuntujenkins> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2013-02-17
<nautu> hi
<CarstenG> Hi Nora.
<nautu> Hi Carsten
<CarstenG> How are you?
<nautu> fine
<CarstenG> Nice to see you here again :-)
<nautu> really?
<nautu> ure doing some sweet talking
<nautu> :)
<nautu> what city are you in germany?
<CarstenG> I'm living in a small town near Duisburg.
<nautu> just to check the world clock
<CarstenG> It's half past 12 am here
<CarstenG> lunch time :-)
<nautu> it is according to my clock
<nautu> 12:22
<CarstenG> yes
<nautu> how is life?
<CarstenG> fine, all ok :-)
<nautu> glad to hear that
<nautu> can I ask a favour from you?
<CarstenG> yes, sure
<nautu> please you can see no
<nautu> look im the coordinator of sig
<nautu> for teachers of english
<nautu> volunteer
<nautu> i thought of having an interview of collaborative work and volunteering is
<nautu> since you are part of this
<nautu> sleep on it will you?
