#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-15
<hajour> hi all
<erkan^> Good night hajour (-:
<hajour> goodnight erkan^ :)
<erkan^> how are you?
<hajour> still recovering
<hajour> and how are you erkan^ 
<hajour> ?
<erkan^> I am good, i am being with Google Picasa
<erkan^> are you ill, hajour ?
<hajour> i had a big epileptic attack in night i think
<hajour> i got muscle pain everywhere and i was really tired
<erkan^> ow
<erkan^> doe aan rusten, aub
<hajour> yes i will do easy
<hajour> i will not be long here now.
<erkan^> I understand it
<hajour> tomorrow i come longer again
<erkan^> i don't care, it is importnat when you feel very good than we can chat, hajour 
<hajour> i just missed ubuntu
<erkan^> ja, maar ga je toch niet bij ubuntu weg, hajour ? of begreep ik verkeerd?
<hajour> no i don't leave ubuntu .we have talked it out well sort off
<hajour> ubt is not ubuntu
<hajour> ubt=ubuntu-beginners-team
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> I go sleep now. veel sterkte en hugs, erkan^ :)
<erkan^> I go sleep now. veel sterkte en hugs, hajour :)
<hajour> o to late
<hajour> jledbetter, are you around?
<jledbetter> hajour, Yes. How are you?
<hajour> recovering
<hajour> and how are you jledbetter ?
<jledbetter> hajour, Recovering? I'm fine. Almost bed time here. :)
<hajour> i had a epileptic attack a couple of days ago
<hajour> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eU56nAV284   <<< like this
<jledbetter> hajour, Oh no :( I'm glad to hear that you're recovering
<hajour> muscles are still stiff and still fast tired
<jledbetter> hajour, Are there things to help with the soreness?
<hajour> but i not have yet make a mail together with maco for asking sponsoring
<hajour> no just have to go true it
<jledbetter> hajour, When is it due? I really hope you apply.
<hajour> am i now to late for ask sponsering ?
<Pendulum> hajour: nope. sponsorship applications are due by March 29th
<hajour> UndiFineD,  have put me on the list for uds
<jledbetter> Pendulum, Thank you :)
<hajour> thank you Pendulum 
<Pendulum> jledbetter: for?
<hajour> but if i get sponsering and i can come.
<jledbetter> Pendulum, The date. I couldn't remember.
<hajour> i would like someone is informed about some things
<hajour> if i get a attack medic people moslty give depakine injection. because its fluid .
<hajour> but i am very alergic for depakine
<hajour> if i get a attack i cant say it myself
<hajour> someone else need to say it then
<Cheri703> hajour: you might carry a card or something with instructions like that. just in general, not UDS specifically
 * hajour remembers now again why she was not be away 21 years vacation ect.
<hajour> yes but still not all medic look or you have a card
<hajour> they just response fast as possible
<hajour> also i hope if that happens .what i hope not.people nnot go be afraid for me or something
<Cheri703> if you wear a medic alert bracelet or necklace, then it alerts them that there is more going on
<hajour> i had a neckllace when i was child and still a medic gave me depakine
<hajour> so thats why i am more reassured if some people know that
<Cheri703> well, yeah, but there's no guarantee that any of the people you have told in advance are going to be with you at all times
<hajour> still it make change smaller it will happen
<hajour> will not happen i mean
<hajour> i not know  or i can go or i get sponsering and i now already am nerves
<hajour> o btw i walk on high heals.because if i wear flat shoes i fall.my muscles arewrong grown in my childhood because of have wear a iron hip mmm bricket? not know the good word for it
<hajour> i have wear that 3 years from half year till 3 and half year
<hajour> mm i think i need to buy more duck tape
<hajour> then i can tape my bodyparts better to each other
<hajour> XD i see it all for me .silver woman 
<hajour> all taped in
<hajour> it will be cheap not cost on cloths :))
<hajour> ye well better see things with a little humor
<hajour> btw who is already been on a UDS? Pendulum  i know
<hajour> i am trying to get a idea what i can expect on a UDS
<hajour> mmm i just discovered my kids have played last week on my games on facebook .they do better then me :D
<hajour> my oldest almost not sleep whole here live
<hajour> i think she was bored.
<hajour> well enough talked against myself by
<hajour> till later maybe
<hajour> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/15/japan-nuclear-crisis-tsunami-live 
<hajour> persia and rx007 live in japan .i not know who more from ubuntu
<hajour> jledbetter nobody knows yet from japanese ubuntu or they are alive ect
<pleia2> persia has checked in, he's ok
<hajour> btw it makes me mad to see after all what is happened the many victums .to see that piece between about a kill bank black day.what is money compared to humans
<hajour> glad to hear persia is ok pleia2 
<hajour> his family to pleia2 ?
<pleia2> hajour: I haven't heard any bad news
<hajour> have they food and shelther?
<pleia2> I don't know anything behind him saying that he's ok :)
<hajour> if you speak him will you ask him then pleia2 ?
<pleia2> of course
<hajour> if he need help i thought on organize some here from ubuntu for to help ubuntu teammembers when needed pleia2 
<hajour> many small things together can make a big difference
<hajour> japanese ubuntu team members
<hajour> i meant
<hajour> if it is not a good idea just say
<pleia2> it's certainly something we should keep in mind if they need the help
<hajour> pleia2,  if you speak persia will you want ask then or he know or rx007 is ok?
<hajour> we could ask on uds then
<hajour> the danger is still not gone btw.because of the nuclear reactor
<hajour> and after shocks
<pleia2> yeah
<hajour> cant help it .in this kind things my brains is going on max by thinking of possibly solutions
<hajour> for to help
<hajour> i cant sleep
<hajour> rx007 is team member of speechcontrol
<hajour> not heard from him
<pleia2> I have a cousin in tokyo, she said there are still outages for power and internet
<pleia2> so hopefully it's just that he hasn't been able to get to a stable internet connection
<hajour> yes i hope so
<hajour> good friend of my brother who is married to japanese woman live also in japan with there son
<hajour> not heard of them to
<pleia2> hope everyone is ok
<pleia2> bedtime for me, take care hajour 
<hajour> good night pleia2 
<hajour> and you to take care pleia2 
<erkan^> AlanBell, i have a probleem with a magnifier (i had typing on a terminal --> magnifier)
<erkan^> (magnifier:5832): Bonobo-WARNING **: Assigning a default value to a non readable property 'source-display-screen'
<erkan^> (magnifier:5832): Bonobo-WARNING **: Assigning a default value to a non readable property 'target-display-screen'
<erkan^> An instance of magnifier is already active. Exiting Program.
<erkan^> hello
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-16
<CensoredBiscuit> Aye. Pendulum
<hajour> hi all
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are you around?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yep I am now.
<Pendulum> okay meeting time!
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Mar 16 21:00:16 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<Pendulum> who's here for the meeting?
<Cheri703> here
 * Pendulum pokes at charlie-tca AlanBell hajour TheMuso maco
<charlie-tca> Hello
<Pendulum> this could be a very short meeting
<Pendulum> (since we have very few people)
 * TheMuso is.
 * TheMuso notes he is somewhat late with his blog entry for this week... I'll do my best to get it finished ASAP.
<Pendulum> CensoredBiscuit: you around for the meeting? (no worries if you aren't)
<maco> hi
<Pendulum> okay, agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> #topic Natty Testing
<meetingology> TOPIC: Natty Testing
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: what's the status on the testing you're doing? what can we help with?
<charlie-tca> We don't have usable images again. Hopefully, tomorrow, we get an image that works again.
<charlie-tca> Have not had a good image in a week now
<TheMuso> Yeah there is a lot of upheaval atm.
<charlie-tca> Can't tell if the install works or fails, since I haven't been able to install since alpha3 released
<charlie-tca> It would be great to have two or three or more run installs, when we get it working again
<charlie-tca> We need someone to test dasher and screen magnifier, too, when we can get things working
 * Cheri703 can do that if the process for testing is well explained
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: that was my next question :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: what's the status of the accessibility features making it in?
<charlie-tca> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopAccessibility
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Well things are still broken. They will likely be fixed by natty final, but I dare say they will lack polish. For this reason, myself and a couple of Desktop tea members are considering setting the default desktop session to GNOME for one or more accessibility profiles.
<TheMuso> But unity will be there for people to try should they choose to do so.
<Pendulum> *nods* I saw some discussion of that, just wasn't sure how 'official' it was
<charlie-tca> that would be great, since it is close to impossible to use unity without full keyboard and mouse
<AlanBell> o/
<AlanBell> just got in
<charlie-tca> I find unity very hard to use, myself. It is not intuitive, there are no menus, and you have to search all over to find anything
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: You are aware that all icons on the launcher have a quicklist/context menu?
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> where the hell is all this information?
<charlie-tca> We can't even have the shortcuts list on the wiki any more. It is only found on askubuntu.com, if you know where to look for it.
<Cheri703> I find that a LOT of information is fragmented, it takes a lot of new searches to find things
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: why no shortcuts list on the wiki?
<charlie-tca> apparently, if you complain long enough, someone finally tells you
<charlie-tca> jcastro moved the shortcuts to askubuntu.com
<maco> moved, not copied? how silly
<AlanBell> he did
<maco> did you try asking him to have it in both spots?
<charlie-tca> and, you can't easily add to them now, since the language used is not conventional markup for the wiki
<AlanBell> he got massively frustrated with the slowness of the wiki
<Pendulum> maco: they're trying to consolidate a lot of things to askubuntu rather than the wiki :-/
<maco> ew
<AlanBell> the can be added back to the wiki, but they wanted one place to maintain them
<charlie-tca> The problem is finding the stuff over there
<charlie-tca> and then editing it to add anything
<AlanBell> there is a pointer on the page over to the askubuntu place
<maco> that's a tech support site, not a brain-dump site!
<maco> *sigh*
<AlanBell> I agree
<AlanBell> I *have* been trying hard to address the issue of the wiki
 * TheMuso agrees with all thats been said.
<Pendulum> maco: there was a UDS session about it in Orlando, unfortunately it was the last slot on the last day so I think a lot of people were too tired
<charlie-tca> I, for one, can not add a shortcut now. I can't really remember the right syntax
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: and it was approved as a supplement to launchpad answers, not as a wiki replacement
<Pendulum> I think if we can, we should stick it back on the wiki under /Accessibility and if we have to assign a person to update based on when things are added on askubuntu, that's what we do
<Pendulum> it's a PITA to do it that way, but I agree with all the issues about askubuntu
<Pendulum> (I personally don't touch askubuntu if I don't have to)
<charlie-tca> Yes, we can do that. It really should be under the help wiki, though
<AlanBell> personally I would be inclined to leave it there until release and then put it on the wiki
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that could work too
<charlie-tca> um, I don't see many changes happening to it over there, actually.
<AlanBell> it is over there so jcastro can maintain it better
<AlanBell> I think he will
<Pendulum> have we ever figured out if askubuntu is screen-reader friendly?
<AlanBell> it is the tool he likes to use
<charlie-tca> people will add to it if it is on the wiki
<charlie-tca> as I recall, it is not
<AlanBell> there have been discussions about stackexchange and screen readers, there are blind people who use it
<Pendulum> I've seen things saying both ways. but no idea how long ago anyone last checked
<Pendulum> TheMuso: charlie-tca AlanBell, are any of you willing to check to see if askubuntu.com can be read using a screen reader?
<charlie-tca> yes
<TheMuso> Yeah I can.
<AlanBell> I can test with orca, but I don't know about specialised web page readers
<AlanBell> I can look at the RSS feed
<charlie-tca> http://askubuntu.com/questions/28086/keyboard-shortcuts-in-unity/28087#28087
<charlie-tca> is a good page to try
<Pendulum> can I just assign the 3 of you to look into it and get back to to us by the next meeting?
 * charlie-tca nods
<AlanBell> yup
<paul_h> I'm looking at askubuntu with orca too
<TheMuso> Seems fine with Orca and firefox in natty.
<paul_h> looks okay thus far
<TheMuso> Yeah
<Pendulum> okay, so maybe not a concern :D
<Pendulum> (and now not an action item either!)
<Pendulum> okay, since we kinda started talking about development as well, TheMuso is there anything you want to add about what's going on with development?
<TheMuso> Nothing else to add, I covered what I wanted to say earlier re testing. However in that time I have reda some email, adn more accessibility stuff is likely to land this week, so with a bit of luck, we will have a somewhat accessible unity, so the decision to keep the default session to classic GNOME will be held off till next week.
<Pendulum> great
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: anything else regarding testing?
<charlie-tca> no, just hope we can get some testing in soon
<Pendulum> great, moving on
<paul_h> sorry, been away for a while, may I ask if the installer is likely to be accessible
<charlie-tca> yes, it is. 
<paul_h> great, thanks
<TheMuso> THere has been a bit of work towards addressing that, and yes, things are much better now, but still not perfect, but thats due to webkit support still not being 100% complete.
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> #topic Blog Volunteers
<meetingology> TOPIC: Blog Volunteers
 * Pendulum waits for the groans
<Pendulum> we were not so good at getting posts out this month
<charlie-tca> again?
 * Cheri703 apologizes for slacking off the interviews...wasn't sure where to start.
<Cheri703> I can step up and do that
<Pendulum> this is partially my fault for not poking people
 * AlanBell is getting close to posting the next persona
<Pendulum> I think we got maybe 1/2 of them up
 * charlie-tca is trying to write another post on testing
<Pendulum> I'm not overly worried, just think we should try to continue to do better!
<Pendulum> so we really have 5 weeks we need to schedule in this time
<TheMuso> Agreed. As I said earlier, mine is not finished, but hopefully will be by the end of the week.
<Pendulum> for those of you who are unaware, we now have a blog at http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/
<Pendulum> and we're trying to get at least one post up on it a week
<Pendulum> they can be about anything accessibility related
<Pendulum> well, accessibility and Ubuntu/computing related
<Cheri703> does that go through planet ubuntu? I seem to recall seeing at least some of those
<Pendulum> yes
<Pendulum> I'd like to volunteer next week to write something about accessibility at UDS
<Pendulum> does anyone have a problem with that?
<TheMuso> ounds good.
<TheMuso> sounds
<charlie-tca> great!
<Pendulum> #action Pendulum to write post on UDS accessibility for week of March 21st
<meetingology> ACTION: Pendulum to write post on UDS accessibility for week of March 21st
<Pendulum> so who is interested in writing for the week after that? you don't need an actual topic in mind right now
<AlanBell> well put me down for the persona asap
<charlie-tca> We will be testing beta1 the week of march 27
<valorie> I don't have an account on the access blog, but I'd like to write about KDE and accessability at some point
<valorie> the kubuntu angle
<AlanBell> we can set up additional accounts
<charlie-tca> heh, I just send mine to Pendulum 
<Pendulum> either way works
<valorie> ok, I can do it that way too
<valorie> I'm on the KDE accessability list and channel
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to do the persona the week after next?
 * TheMuso is too.
<valorie> there is work being done, and they are interfacing with Canonical I believe
<AlanBell> yeah, sure
 * Pendulum really should join that channel
<Pendulum> #action AlanBell to blog about the next persona week of March 28th
<meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to blog about the next persona week of March 28th
<valorie> what is the best timing?
<valorie> now, or later
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: what's good timing for your next testing blog post?
<charlie-tca> I can take the week of April 4
<charlie-tca> i guess
<Pendulum> ok
<Pendulum> valorie: do you want to do the week after that?
<valorie> so second week of April?
<Pendulum> #action charlie-tca to blog about testing for week of April 4th
<meetingology> ACTION: charlie-tca to blog about testing for week of April 4th
<Pendulum> valorie: yeah, the one starting the 11th
<valorie> sounds good
<Pendulum> #action valorie to blog about KDE accessibility for week of April 11th
<meetingology> ACTION: valorie to blog about KDE accessibility for week of April 11th
<valorie> I'll try to get it done before, and let you release it
<Pendulum> Cheri703: do you think you'd manage to get an interview done for the week of April 20th?
<Cheri703> sure
<Pendulum> #action Cheri703 to do first interview for week of April 20th
<meetingology> ACTION: Cheri703 to do first interview for week of April 20th
<Pendulum> and that's all the posts we need to schedule for now!
<Pendulum> if anyone else wants to post anything between now and then feel free to either send it to AlanBell or myself or poke us and we can give you access to the blog
<Pendulum> all I want to try to avoid is 2 posts in the same day
<Pendulum> past that, I have no problem with lots of posts :)
<Pendulum> so now that's done
<charlie-tca> \o/
<Pendulum> #topic Next Persona
<meetingology> TOPIC: Next Persona
<Pendulum> AlanBell: this is all you :P
<valorie> oooo, I could submit the post to dotKDE too
<valorie> :-)
<valorie> giving us all kinds of coverage
<AlanBell> so the next persona is Daniela
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/daniela
<AlanBell> I am working on the text at the bottom of the page
<AlanBell> there are a bunch of notes above
<AlanBell> she is totally blind
<AlanBell> one thing worth mentioning is the bit at the bottom:
<AlanBell> If you are going to UDS in Budapest then arrange a visit with a bunch of folk to the Invisible Exhibition http://www.lathatatlan.hu/en/ you will be given a white cane and led into an area of total darkness where your guide (who is blind) will take you on a tour of the exhibition. On Thursday they do a dinner in the dark followed by an invisible party! If you are interested in this please add a comment to this blog post.
<AlanBell> I think it would be great to drum up some interest for an evening out at that
<TheMuso> I am so in for that!
<AlanBell> however they are not able to accomodate wheelchairs
<charlie-tca> I want to go
<AlanBell> I was unable to pursuade them to budge on that
<Pendulum> I'm unsurprised that they can't accommodate wheelchairs, although a bit sad. 
<AlanBell> TheMuso: it would be great to get the blind chap from linaro along to that too
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Aye.
<Pendulum> (even if the space was physically accessible, I can think of a lot of reasons why it's not practical)
<AlanBell> yeah, I asked if it was possible to skip the exhibition bit and just get a chair into the dinner area, but no
<Cheri703> :(
<TheMuso> Thats somewhat disheartening.
<AlanBell> however, disapointing as that is, I think it would be good to get as many people along to it as possible
<Pendulum> tbh, I expect that if I get sponsored to Budapest that it will be hard, and maybe impossible for me to get places outside the hotel. I'm resigned to it. I'll cope :)
<Pendulum> anyway, AlanBell is tehre stuff people can help with?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I agree.
<AlanBell> people can dive in and edit text on the pad, maybe I will shout a few times in here for people to help review bits and work together on bits
<Pendulum> sounds good!
<Pendulum> anything else with personas?
<AlanBell> not right now
<Pendulum> great
<Pendulum> we're hitting close to an hour now. Do people want to go over the blueprint now or should we wait until either next month? (or if we want to do something sooner, we could hold a meeting just to go over the blueprint in 2 weeks or something)
<Pendulum> the only reason I'm suggesting a special meeting sooner than next month is next month's meeting is the week before Natty releases
<TheMuso> A meeting just for the blueprint is a better idea, given where things are at.
<hajour> sorry just have read back
<Pendulum> (and I'm getting a little tired which is why I'd rather not go more than an hour if possible)
<charlie-tca> I agree with the separate blueprint meeting
<AlanBell> separate meeting is fine, keeps up the momentum
<valorie> thank you for inviting me to this meeting
<valorie> I'll try to attend regularly from now on
<TheMuso> valorie: You're welcome at any time.
<Pendulum> valorie: you're welcome to hang out in the channel. We don't discrimminate
<Pendulum> :)
<valorie> shorter and more frequent sounds good
<Pendulum> there are even *gasp* non-disabled here all the time ;-)
<hajour> btw i can let know now how it is to use when you are blind i just open the curtains  and dont put sunglasses on.and i will see nothing at all
<valorie> hehe
<Pendulum> okay 
<Pendulum> so we'll move the blue print to a separate meeting
<Pendulum> #topic Any Other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
<Pendulum> anyone have anything else they'd like to bring up?
<hajour> lost my note when i hasd to finish the blog for the accessibility site
<charlie-tca> oh, no
<Pendulum> hajour: whenever you get it done is fine
<hajour> ok
<Pendulum> anything else?
<hajour> is there still help needed for some things tested for blind ?
<Pendulum> okay, it sounds like the meeting stuff is done
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Mar 16 22:03:09 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-03-16-21.00.moin.txt
<Pendulum> thank you everyone!
<AlanBell> thanks Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hajour: talk to charlie-tca about testing
<hajour> i think UndiFineD  will get time to help.he just heard he will have to leave his job
<charlie-tca> hajour: yes, we need help
<hajour> he heard today he will be fired from next fryday
<charlie-tca> We need to try the screen-reader installations, as much as we can, to get it working good
<charlie-tca> Sorry to hear that. 
<Pendulum> oh, does 2 weeks from now at the same time work for people?
<hajour> ok
<AlanBell> Pendulum: does for me
<charlie-tca> yeah
<Pendulum> it will be after the change to daylight savings for the UK folks
<hajour> ok Pendulum 
 * charlie-tca nods at Pendulum 
<Pendulum> (I don't know about for TheMuso or hajour )
<AlanBell> so might be an hour later for people in a country where the clocks change
<Pendulum> right
<AlanBell> or an hour earlier in the southern hemisphere perhaps?
<hajour> i need some help asking sponsering only i wonder if i still am needed .or speechcontrol then still lives
<TheMuso> Pendulum: If I know what it is in UTC< I can workit out from there.
<hajour> bad things never come alone
<Pendulum> TheMuso: the 21:00 UTC time
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: sorry to hear about the job
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: :( about your job
<hajour> UndiFineD,  was very tired from all of this and is now sleeping
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Should be doable.
<AlanBell> hajour: yes, you can still do a sponsorship application
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: what is the actual date, March 30?
<Pendulum> yes
<hajour> but whaat can i offer them to UDS i mean
<charlie-tca> okay, kick me for it, then
<hajour> -a
<charlie-tca> hajour: accessibility discussions
<hajour> ok
<AlanBell> just have to figure out what in particular you want to get involved in
<hajour> i was /am where i want to be  involved in
<AlanBell> hajour: have a look at the schedule of the last one http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-n/
<AlanBell> click monday through to friday and look at the session titles
<hajour> UndiFineD,  had put me already on the list
<AlanBell> make a list of the ones you would have liked to attend
<AlanBell> that will guide what goes on the application form
<hajour> ok
<hajour> thank you AlanBell 
<AlanBell> when you have done that list (and decided that you really want to spend the time and effort to go) then lets put together your form
<hajour> anyone know how a team go upstream to look where i have mist things.maybe i can still save speechcontrol
 * hajour is kinda desperate
<JanC> hajour: what's wrong?
<hajour> speechcontrol is pushed upstream without a warning up front.to short for it happened we where warned
<hajour> i never had before a team not before speechcontrol
<Pendulum> hajour: I'm not sure how moving upstream changes your development at all?
<hajour> also my first contact with irc is been here
<hajour> for the channels are made and official it cost 6 weeks
<JanC> what do you mean by "pushed upstream" ?
<AlanBell> it is a long and confusing story JanC
<hajour> a new wiki whas /is needed
<AlanBell> I don't think pushed upstream is the best terminology, but I don't have time right now to go through it
<hajour> but mail from launchpad had not reached all devs
<AlanBell> hajour: I think a lot of the original goals of that project would make a great session to discuss at UDS
<Pendulum> actually, there are upstream projects that use the Ubuntu wiki. maco's project Gally is an example
<hajour> channels where go broken from ubuntu-speechcontrol before we had all devs in by the new channels
<AlanBell> and fold into the actual Ubuntu project management methodology
<hajour> i wanted not go upstream but stay here
<Pendulum> I wouldn't necessarily recommend it long-term if you want other distros to use it, but it's not unheard of
<hajour> i not able to do this allone
<AlanBell> you don't have to
<hajour> i need help to get a clear site again from all about speechcontrol
<AlanBell> anyhow it is getting late here
<JanC> I think it's a good thing if speechconrol works for all distros?
<AlanBell> speechcontrol is not yet a "thing"
<JanC> it's a project bundling several "things"
<hajour> ever heard about a adhd er who whas good in planning?specially when things are suddenly dropt on them?
<hajour> its already done upstream but not good
<hajour> it has to made good
<hajour> ok AlanBell  good night
<JanC> hajour: what do you mean by "mail from launchpad had not reached all devs" ?
<hajour> for to make clear this is a emergency call 
<hajour> some devs we have picked up again in ubuntu-beginners-team .they asked where the channels where
<JanC> the channel disappeared?
<hajour> we heard they had not get the mail where was standing in that we moved to other channels
<JanC> why not set a forward on the old channels?
<hajour> because we where go upstream we had to move to channels whitout ubuntu in the name
<JanC> Freenode has all those fancy features to do such things...
<hajour> we have done
<hajour> but some where on vacation
<hajour> after a few weeks the channels where broken the old 1 s
<hajour> and a few where just moving to other house because of change jobs
<charlie-tca> JanC: can't really forward the #ubuntu?? channel to a non-ubuntu channel
<hajour> we just where making some progress with speechcontrol
<hajour> i dont know charlie-tca  we have put it in i not remember or it worked
<hajour> so much was happening last month
<JanC> charlie-tca: well, technically it's possible I suppose, but probably would require a Freenode staffer for permissions?  in any case, a simple topic + channel message could give the necessary information too?
<hajour> btw not only speechcontrol have this problems also wintermute
<charlie-tca> um, it requires Ubuntu channel permission, since the #ubuntu?? channels are controlled by ubuntui
<charlie-tca> s/ubuntui/ubuntu
<hajour> people feel like ubt have leave them not only me
<JanC> an "ubuntu irc staffer" then  ;)
<hajour> the 2 teams have no experience with things like this at all
<hajour> so simple said help plz ?
<hajour> its so much i not know anymore where to start
<JanC> well, what help do you need?
<hajour> so you see i am not so good what everyone every time says
<hajour> first i need help to make a good planning to get a good view again
<hajour> what is still needed and what is done
<JanC> maybe make a list on paper (or in tomboy notes, or whatever) ?
<hajour> and after that how can i reach the other devs
<JanC> it seems like #ubuntu-speechcontrol already forwards to #speechcontrol ?
<hajour> JanC,  have you experience with people who have adhd/add ? just wondering
<hajour> yes
<hajour> 4 channels we have all am i not knowing why so many someone made them for me
<JanC> hajour: not much experience, so if I say stupid things feel free to tell me  ;-)
<hajour> #speechcontrol  #speechcontrol-devel  #speechcontrol-offtopic  speechcontrol-inferno
<hajour> #speechcontrol-inferno i mean
<JanC> so, if IRC redirects are okay, what else is needed?
<hajour> i not know or the wiki is finished
<hajour> i was not able to come on it
<JanC> somebody is hosting a new site/wiki ?
<hajour> so i have not seen it
<hajour> yes it was needed?they said
<hajour> also had to do with ubuntu name in it
<JanC> well, you can use the ubuntu wiki until that is ready
<JanC> I understand they don't want to stay on the ubuntu wiki forever, but no need to drop it before the new one is ready...
<hajour> i not know or that wan is still up to date 
<hajour> one i mean
<hajour> JanC,  if you want all will come in by me the info.and stay in it need to be short as possible explain.strict to the point
<hajour> jacky is also by youth often helping so i don't know when he will respond JanC 
<JanC> hajour: I think the changes just need some time because most people also have other things to do (jobs, school, etc.)
<hajour> yes i know
<hajour> but i need to know things before not suddenly.if it is drop suddenly my mind blocks
<hajour> like a door is closed advance and they key is missing
<hajour> -y
<JanC> hajour: many people don't like sudden changes, but it's much worse for you I suppose
<hajour> and then i loose view over all things
<hajour> not only on speechcontrol but also in my home
<hajour> and then things will lay and come more things
<hajour> till it is very much
<JanC> hajour: thats' why I suggest keeping a list about this somewhere--and maybe everybody on the team should help with that
<hajour> and then i not know anymore where to begin
<JanC> a list of what needs done, who will do it, and what's already done
<hajour> but then i need the devs will come to tell what is done
<JanC> exactly  âº
<hajour> and still needed
<hajour> but half of devs we not have seen for weeks
<hajour> from the moment we where go upstream
<JanC> hajour: if they want to make software for people with disabilities, they should at least try to understand why you need it
<hajour> yes but i not know how to explain to them to not send me long story's
<hajour> i drawn in that
<hajour> and will not be able to see what is in it
<JanC> again, most people have difficulty reading long stories, it's just worse for you
<hajour> and then i feel so powerless
<JanC> so by keeping things short and to the point, they help everybody  âº
<hajour> yes
<charlie-tca> http://www.techworld.com.au/article/379869/google_apps_slammed_by_advocacy_group_blind/
<hajour> its still loading charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> it is slow to load.
<JanC> charlie-tca: I've been slamming Google Apps for years, they fail for everybody, not only for the blind  ;-)
<charlie-tca> It is about the United States. but the article comes from Australia
<hajour> i just need to get the start help .the push in the right direction by way of speaking
<charlie-tca> Hopefully, National Federation for the Blind has enough push to do something
<hajour> specially by new things
<hajour> i was to hospital today with one of my kids and i forgot to take my dark glasses with me.in my home curtains are mostly closed.or such a way its not bright light
<hajour> so first it was still not yet full light
<hajour> i not mean sun
<hajour> but then daylight came
<hajour> and i was not able to see anything anymore almost
<hajour> so my 11 year old daughter have guide me instead of me guiding her.
<hajour> and i felt so stupid to forget something important like that
<JanC> charlie-tca: I tried to use gmail for some time, but it's so full of bugs (including standards-violating bugs) that Outlook suddenly starts to look good--so I'm not surprised it's bad at a11y too...
<TheMuso> JanC: I have always been skeptical of web apps. At least Google apps can be accessed by dedicated clients on various platforms.
<JanC> TheMuso: yeah, even if they have (or had?) some bugs/flaws in their protocol implementations
<hajour> pff i have make a screenshot to help and know i cant find it
<hajour> now
<hajour> charlie-tca,  that link you have give me have make plug in shockwave made crash
<hajour> by my webbrowser
<charlie-tca> really? It didn't crash mine
<hajour> i had make for first time alone a screenshot but cant find him anymore :(
<hajour> so i am searching now in all my files
<hajour> charlie-tca, ^
<charlie-tca> I try not to run any flash stuff,  myself
<hajour> i have let make some changes btw for accessibility by facebook 
<hajour> and they listened to .till my big surprise
<hajour> so i will go write more mails to them for accessibility
<JanC> I use NoScript, which also blocks Flash by default
<hajour> what NoScript is for?
<JanC> I doubt I could have 200+ tabs in Firefox otherwise  :P
<JanC> hajour: it's a firefox extension that disables JavaScript & plugins until you allow tham for specific sites (where you really need them)
<hajour> a ok
<JanC> most sites work fine without JavaScript/Flash/etc.
<JanC> and publicity banners use JavaScript and/or Flash most of teh time, so I don't see any of these either  ;)
<hajour> so short say a commercial blocker
<JanC> it's not really an ad blocker, but blocking ads is a nice side-effect
<hajour> mm ok
<hajour> so what is it block more then to?
<JanC> it blocks JavaScript and plugins, which I do for security and because those often use lots of CPU & memory for no good reason
<hajour> mm ok
<JanC> and it often makes pages load faster too
<hajour> JanC,  do you think 1 from ubuntu if they have a business.would give me like mm don't know the english word stage to learn more from it?
<hajour> i not want money
<hajour> only a change to learn more
<hajour> from to learn IT i mean
<JanC> Dutch "stage" is called "internship" in English
<hajour> aok
<hajour> ok
<JanC> and it's difficult to say that, I don't know what you can or can't do
<Pendulum> Canonical doesn't do internships, they kinda consider the community as their volunteers and interns in a way
<Pendulum> I don't know about other companies
<hajour> i need to learn in real live
<hajour> to see how someone do it
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> that makes sense
<JanC> also, I don't know if the Dutch government has good subsidies for companies that employ people with disabilities
<Pendulum> I also don't know what companies are in your area
<hajour> i am on the list to come in the project from getting a adjust job
<hajour> but for i am on the list its 5 months later
<hajour> then i come on the list what takes 4 till 7 year till it is my turn
<hajour> and that is so very long
<hajour> they have subsidies
<JanC> hajour: have you tried volunteering to assist with IT for a non-profit or such?  it's not the same, but might still be good to get some experience?
<hajour> never done that i have done job interviews but i not come further then the first talk then i am not needed.but i not had my meds when i tryed it
<JanC> hajour: maybe Akke from ubuntu-nl can help you
<hajour> so i failed with very lot job interviews
<hajour> and at a point i simple had give up trying
<hajour> is Akke also in ubuntu-nl-mwanzo?
<JanC> she's "laacque" when she is on IRC
<hajour> and in which channel is she to find JanC ?
<JanC> she's not there very often I think
<hajour> o
<hajour> you see i only see helpers here in my home .when i talk its about problem this problem that.
<hajour> i want to come in the society
<hajour> people around .work to do something.and maybe later very maybe.to urn finally my own money instead holding my hand up everytime
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-17
<CensoredBiscuit> hello all
<CensoredBiscuit> I was pinged
<hajour> JanC,  do you have a link from a site where all that short cuts are on with explain from IRC
<hajour> there was a meeting CensoredBiscuit 
<CensoredBiscuit> oops.
<hajour> just read back
<CensoredBiscuit> sorry guies
<hajour> don't worry CensoredBiscuit 
<Pendulum> CensoredBiscuit: no worries. I was just pinging people to see who was around :)
<hajour> Pendulum,  said already it was no problem CensoredBiscuit 
<CensoredBiscuit> its my minute to win it night
<hajour> drat you was earlier Pendulum 
<hajour> Pendulum,  i not remember but was you also come to UDS or not?
<Pendulum> hajour: I'm hoping to be at UDS
<CensoredBiscuit> Pendulum cprofitt gave me a decent idea
<Pendulum> oh?
<hajour> i hope also you come and that i can come to
<CensoredBiscuit> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/admin
<Pendulum> ok
<hajour> Pendulum, ^
<Pendulum> hajour: definite that would be great :)
<hajour> i am nerves by the idea to go to UDS but also very curious how that is and if i can really help 
<CensoredBiscuit> I'm looking to work on the wiki page you told me too but I have no idea what accessibility programs come with ubuntu.
<Pendulum> CensoredBiscuit: a good start is to look in the assitive technology section of the software center
<hajour> btw what is the link to the screenreader
<hajour> so i can help testing
<JanC> orca?
<hajour> i dont know charlie was talking about a screenreader
<JanC> in the GUI that's Orca AFAIK
<JanC> it runs when you enable "Assisterende technologieÃ«n"
<hajour> there are more screenreaders then orca so i do not know which one is need to be tested
<JanC> and I guess they want testing of the development version?
<hajour> then i can the same time look or the translations are good for hannie to
<hajour> dutch translations
<hajour> so 2 task at the same time
<JanC> of course
<hajour> seams me am win win situation
<hajour> or case
<hajour> or something
<hajour> :D
<hajour> can it run on a eeepc like i have
<hajour> ?
<JanC> it should
<hajour> last time (more then a month ago )my eeepc crasht because of orca also undifineds pc .so maybe i better can make sa backup from my files just to be safe
<hajour> i am tired i go to sleep good night all
<Cheri703> are there any accessibility whatnots that let you adjust the contrast of things?
<Cheri703> my netbook doesn't have a contrast option for the display, and I was just thinking that might be something useful
<Cheri703> I am discovering that I get SIGNIFICANTLY less eye strain/pain at 20%-30% grey background with black text vs white and black, and that's even at very low brightness
<Cheri703> LOTS happier eyes
<Cheri703> I did find how to do it in firefox...
<AlanBell> Cheri703: there are a bunch of things in the compiz filters relating to contrast
<AlanBell> and really really cool options to simulate colour blindness
<Cheri703> hmm...ok
<Cheri703> I don't use compiz :/
<Cheri703> I turn off desktop effects
<AlanBell> new unity depends on compiz
<Cheri703> :( I haven't tried new unity, but hated old unity, so...
<Cheri703> :/
<AlanBell> I am using old unity
<AlanBell> I am not a huge fan
<AlanBell> I will probably use new unity
<Cheri703> I'll try it, but...
<Cheri703> if I don't like it I'll try something else
<JanC> there are low-contrast themes for Gtk/GNOME, but they aren't as pretty as the default theme...
<JanC> Cheri703: you can always disable all the "special" effects in Compiz
<Cheri703> might try it
<Cheri703> I guess I don't know that a filter is what I'd want. because I'd want other stuff to still look ok
<Cheri703> just don't want WHITE WHITE
<AlanBell> Cheri703: trick for you :)
<Cheri703> ?
<AlanBell> create a bookmark and put this in it: javascript:void(document.body.style.background='#dddddd')
<Cheri703> what will it do?
<AlanBell> or just paste that in the URL bar on a website where you want to soften the background
<AlanBell> it will change the background colour of the page
<Cheri703> ah, I already set it :)
<AlanBell> from white (#FFFFFF) to a light grey
<Cheri703> thanks though :)
<Cheri703> you can go into the settings and change the color, even force sites to use it :)
<AlanBell> you can have that as a bookmarklet
<Cheri703> yeah, I definitely will save it
<Cheri703> I have xmarks, so if I'm on another computer I can still access it
<AlanBell> I had one for javascript:void(document.body.style.fontFamily='ubuntu') to force the Ubuntu font when I was testing that on different sites
<Cheri703> ha, nice
<AlanBell> just occurred to me that it could be done for other styles of the page
<Cheri703> :)
<Cheri703> found out I can change background colors in adobe reader (try to avoid it, but it's worth it for this). it will enable me to actually read ebooks and pdfs :)
<jono> Pendulum, about ready?
<Pendulum> jono: yep
<Pendulum> whenever you are
<jono> Pendulum, give me one min, quick bio break
<Pendulum> k
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-18
<hajour> goodnight all
<charlie-tca> i386 desktop screen-reader install through the unity 3d desktop worked today
<Pendulum> yay!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-20
 * JackyAlcine looks around.
<hajour> can i help you with something JackyAlcine ?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-12
<DomasoFan> hi guys. seems we still have broken things in ubuntu 12.04. does someone know if there all the things can be fixed in time? i know we still have 4 weeks left but yeah.
<jalcine> My team's repackaging the newer viewers of speech recognition utility PocketSphinx and also providing the training utility that CMUSphinx calls SphinxTrain.
<jalcine> Should be ready from the farm in about two hours.
<AlanBell> jalcine: is that in a PPA?
<jalcine> Yup, https://launchpad.net/~speechcontrol-devel/+archive/unstable, I believe.
<AlanBell> is that CMUsphinx or pocketsphinx though?
<jalcine> Ah, they've just been built.
<jalcine> That's CMUSphinx. the latest stable sphinxbase and sphinxtrain
<jalcine> With that, we're going to bring it pocketsphinx and cmuctlk
<jalcine> *bring in
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-13
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Unity/Unity-2d create the UI for the HUD, not indicator-appmenu, it just does the search grunt work and sends the results via dbus to the receiver, being the shell.
<AlanBell> ok, so not gord's problem then?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-14
<TheMuso> Well if he is working on the UI, then yes it is.
<TheMuso> But its not Ted's problem.
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> I will continue to pester gord :)
<AlanBell> I don't understand how it all fell apart at the beta. I am sure alpha2 was quite good
 * AlanBell downloads alpha2 again to see what it was really like
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Yeah Unity 3D still feels flaky to me, in that it doesn't take much for it to fall appart.
<TheMuso> WHich is why I am focusing on 2D now.
<TheMuso> A11y is easier to fix there, requires much less work.
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Ok, found the code that is supposed to set the result buttons in the unity-2D hud. An attempt was made to make this accessible from the get go, however the variable they used for the text always seems to be empty.
<TheMuso> I found another variable that can be used, but its got characters in it that Orca speaks, which we don't want to hear.
<TheMuso> I actually think this needs articulating a bit better anyway, as I think the user should hear what menu the item is from in a way that makes it understandable.
<jalcine> TheMuso: The "What's This" or tool-tip could be useful there.
<jalcine> If provided.
<TheMuso> jalcine: What tooltip?
<TheMuso> jalcine: There are no tooltips for the HUD.
<jalcine> For a specific menu entry.
<jalcine> o.O
 * jalcine headdesks.
<TheMuso> Or more to the point, the hud doesn't receive those.
<jalcine> It could, since it's merely importing menus.
<TheMuso> Not exactly.
<TheMuso> The hud sends the search to the appenu service, which does the searching, and sends back results, and how to activate them, no more.
<TheMuso> Actually no, it doesn't send how to activate, the appmenu side does that as usual.
<jalcine> Hm. 
<TheMuso> In this case, I think what is required is more code for the hud to present a nicer a11y string.
<TheMuso> But thats too late for this cycle, since that requires more translation work to do properly, so if we can just present the results in a way that they are somewhat understood, thats ok.
<jalcine> It would.
<jalcine> It'd be a good idea to propose this asap, though.
<TheMuso> I know that, I am just trying to come to grips with enough of the code to do the work myself.
<jalcine> Scratching the itch :)
<TheMuso> yep
<TheMuso> Hrm. It seems that this requires a 2-pronged approach. *sigh*
<TheMuso> I think the text formatting is done by the hud service, and sent via dbus to the hud UI.
<TheMuso> So in order to get what I want, I need to extend the hud service to format a string for a11y use, then extend the hud API to present this string.
<TheMuso> Then extend unity-2d to actually use this newly added struct member with the text I want.
<jalcine> Hmm. So it's a bit messy at the moment, but the way you're describing it, it might stay similar to that setup for now..
<TheMuso> Its messy in that I have to touch multiple projects to fix this properly.
<TheMuso> Yeah, the problem with this is that it requires everything that uses the HUD API to be rebuilt.
<TheMuso> Ayway, I'll plug at it and see what can be done.
<TheMuso> anyway
<jalcine> Experimental dictation support achieved with SpeechControl! :)
<TheMuso> Nice.
<jalcine> It's using libxdo, though.
<jalcine> I'm a bit skeptical of Unicode support in it. If anything, I might include a modified version of it in the team's PPA until we can get upstream to cooperate.
<dreamwb> Hello !
<dreamwb> Is that anyone here ?
<popey> yo!
<davmor2> popey: you following me
<popey> yes
<davmor2> Hello everybody,  mvo and tremolux from the software center client team would like to get some help making Software Center more accessible is there anyone on this team that would like to get involved with this effort
<davmor2> popey: don't you won't like where it leads
<Pendulum> davmor2: are you looking for developers or testing or information?
<davmor2> Pendulum: I think it's a mix of dev time and info then once the fixes are in place testing
<davmor2> Pendulum: although I can utilise LDTP to do the bulk of the testing,  I think the key is knowing what to do, how to do it, and help doing it at this stage though.  They'd like to get it as accessible as possible for the release if they can now all the key items are in place
<Pendulum> Okay, the best people to talk to about knowing the code is TheMuso or API
<Pendulum> Just about anyone here can test
<Pendulum> I'm not sure about developing (because I suspect TheMuso and API are over worked as it is), but AlanBell or TheMuso would probably know if there's anyone who has expressed interest in doing a11y developing.
<Pendulum> maco might as well
<Pendulum> Otherwise, would they care if we used this to try to recruit someone to doing a11y devel? (I can get a blog post out today looking for someone if that's the case)
<Pendulum> We tend to end up in this issue where there's such a high barrier of entry to get into most accessibility stuff on the distro level that it's hard to recruit.
<Pendulum> Unless there's a specific case (like this) it's not exactly easy to recruit without bitesized bugs
<Pendulum> (which we don't have)
<davmor2> Pendulum: indeed, we can possibly make some bitesized ones once we know what we need in place, I'll ask TheMuso when I can
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-15
<AlanBell> menus work today \o/
<AlanBell> the menus are all called "window" but the menu options are spoken
<Fudge> hows hud accessibility
<AlanBell> not there at all in 3d
<AlanBell> in 2d it reads what you type in the box called shell filler, there are 5 push buttons below but no indication of what they contain
<fregl> AlanBell: so menus in unity 2d are fixed but read as wrong type (window)?
<AlanBell> the root items are all "window"
<AlanBell> rather than "file", "edit", "help" etc
<fregl> oh, so they have the wrong name... hm, I don't know what unity does and I don't have it installed. could be that the top part is QML and the menus are then usual qwidget menus below
<AlanBell> same for unity 3d and unity 2d
<AlanBell> in unity3d the top panel is in the NUX layer which is kind of outside of compiz
<AlanBell> yeah, the menus that drop down are inside the scope of compiz, they get zoomed by enhanced zoom and become detached from the top bar
<fregl> AlanBell: my changes only affect 2d and only indirectly... normal Qt menus are unbroken is important for me right now :D
<AlanBell> ok :)
<AlanBell> I think I will do some more video screencasting later
<popey> AlanBell: AIUI there should be a Unity 2D release today
<popey> with multi-monitor improvements
<popey> AlanBell: I would recommend some testing of 2d when it comes out, I wouldn't focus too much on 3D as it's not going to get the a11y love that 2d will/does
<AlanBell> popey: did that smoke test document come in handy?
<popey> yes
<popey> unity-2d release should be in an hour or two
 * AlanBell spots a unity-greeter update, but no unity2d
<AlanBell> popey: was that a release just to the PPA?
<AlanBell> oh, I am pointing at the PPA, maybe I had it already
<AlanBell> no observable change to unity-greeter :( still reads passwords and doesn't allow use of onboard
<AlanBell> launcher and quicklists in unity2d work acceptably
<popey> AlanBell: Unity 2D didnt release today, should be monday. There were some major issues with it.
<AlanBell> ok
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-17
<Fudge> hiii
<apinel> hello! I've just installed gnome-orca and after configured it I have a problem. I can't configure it to speech 
<apinel> I think could be any dependency I haven't installed
<apinel> If anyone can't help me, thanks :-)
<AlanBell> hi apinel 
<AlanBell> apinel: where are you starting from? orca should be all installed by default on the standard Ubuntu
<AlanBell> is sound in general working? (not muted etc.)
<AlanBell> and does "spd-say hello" work
<apinel> I going to try :)
<apinel> sound is ok, because when I start orca preferences it talks
<apinel> but only there
<AlanBell> ok, maybe you don't have desktop accessibility turned on
<AlanBell> if you go to the system settings tool, universal access preferences, and turn on the screen reader from there it should turn on accessibility, you then have to log out and back in again I think
<apinel> thanks, now i did "spd-say hello" and works
<apinel> oh, could be I haven't log out
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-03-13
<markusdbx> I'm looking for the best possible webbrowser screen reader user experience? Any ideas? I've tested orca and chromevox. Maybe I didn't set up orca right? But it didn't seem to supportive of my browsers (new chrome and firefox)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2019-03-17
<Fudge> hey guys, anyone know if the accessibility team is still active ?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2020-03-14
<zippo^> Hi
