#ubuntu-classroom 2006-11-27
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu]  Welcome to #ubuntu! Please read the channel topic and consider spending some time on the FAQ mentioned there
(gnomefreak/#ubuntu-classroom) ty Hobbsee and fabbione
(daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) thanks.. i also have to be at school the whole week ;)
(Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) thanks fabbione
(fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) no problem
(Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) daschl: they'll also be at the link in !logs
(daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) !logs
(ubotu/#ubuntu-classroom) Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
(daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) ah ok :) thanks
(fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) logs should be on the web starting within the next 60 minutes
(Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) :)
(fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) there is nothing right now
<gnomefreak> how do you remove a hackergotchi from bzr? i  know to add its "bzr add heads/pic.png
<DerXero> mahltied
<stgraber> hi
<jackflap> hello
<stgraber> hi
<jackflap> am i interrupting anything?
<Hobbsee> no
<Hobbsee> not yet
<Lesley> Hello!
* Hobbsee waves to all
<stgraber> It starts at 15:00 UTC
<Lesley> I am new at this! getting ready for class!
<Hobbsee> got your school books out Lesley?  :P
<Lesley> yip! coffee and snacks
<Lesley> I have no idea what it means to have a cloak, a mask,....all sounds very scary!
<stgraber> I'm interested in the "Packaging 101" and "
<stgraber> Maintaining an Ubuntu Package"
<stgraber> hmm, bad copy/paste
<stgraber> that's for today, I'll be mostly at school for the others day :(
<stgraber> and I'll miss the Edubuntu one :(
<tonyyarusso> Lesley: It means that instead of showing up like "tonyyserver [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net]  has joined #ubuntu-classroom" you would show up as something like "tonyyserver [n=tonyyserver@ubuntu/member/tonyyserver]  has joined #ubuntu-classroom"
<Hobbsee> Lesley: we have ghosts that wander around mid-class, distracting people, and the like :P
<tonyyarusso> Hmm...can I reload /etc/screenrc without killing a screened app?
<Lesley> ok - well can you guys protect me from anything strange and i am sure I will learn alot when class begins!
<Lesley> Why is some text red, others blue etc?
<samkon> :) have you ever been in IRC before?
<Hobbsee> Lesley: the red lot usually means that your nickname is somewhere in it?
<samkon> some of them are messeges to you from server
<Hobbsee> (which arent shown in the main window of xchat, iirc)
<samkon> because of that they have different colors
<Grishkin> How long now to wait before 3-00?
<samkon> 6 minutes here, there ?
<Grishkin> wow
<Lesley> Ok! yip - i am a virgin - veerry green! but will do some homework!
<Hobbsee> Lesley: you're doing fine :)
<Lesley> cool bud!
<LinuxBA> CypherBIOS: heya!!!
<CypherBIOS> LinuxBA: good to see you!
<CypherBIOS> LinuxBA: do you know what time will be here at "15:00 UTC" ?
<LinuxBA> 12:00
<Hobbsee> 2 more hours
<Hobbsee> @now
<LinuxBA> at Salvador
<Hobbsee> Seveas: no ubugtu?
<CypherBIOS> Hobbsee, LinuxBA: tanks
<CypherBIOS> thanks
<Grishkin> <samkon> 6 minutes here, there ?
<Grishkin> i think that's wrong :)
<samkon> Grishkin: no it was true
<samkon> it is 15:03 here now
<Grishkin> it is not UTC i mean
<stgraber> we talk about 15:00 UTC :)
<Hobbsee> everything is in UTC here
<Grishkin> so it it about 15-00 UTC now?
<fabbione> it's 2 hours to 15:00 UTC
<fabbione> date -u
<fabbione> Mon Nov 27 13:05:05 UTC 2006
<Grishkin> yes
<Hobbsee> do we have any ops in here?
<Lesley> Hobbsee are you in London?
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: si
<Hobbsee> Lesley: nope,  australia
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: please add http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 to the topic
<samkon> is there two hours to it begins ?
<jono> fabbione, is there a bot in here?
<Hobbsee> samkon: yes
<jono> to log the sessions?
<Lesley> Im in South Africa - its 15.10 here
<Hobbsee> jono: yes, ubuntulog
<jono> woo!
<samkon> :(
<elkbuntu> jono, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<jono> nice :)
<samkon> I did not sleep yesterday becaouse of my exam today
<Hobbsee> Lesley: everything is in UTC time, so we dont all go insane.  see that tinyurl link i just gave for when it is in your timezone
<fabbione> jono: yes.
<samkon> and I may be sleeping fromt of the computer
<jono> would be nice to have some ops around this week to look after things
<samkon> in 2 hours
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<samkon> :(
<Hobbsee> hey cool, i have ops!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | For more information: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | To check what 3pm UTC is for you locally,
<tonyyarusso> Dangit...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Hobbsee] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | Home of the NUN's Classroom Sessions | For more information: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I need to get me a topic sed script...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Hobbsee] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | For more information: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: so do i
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyserver]  by tonyyarusso
<Hobbsee> i think that'll make it a bit clearer - and that time and date can be updated to whatever date/time you want to use.  and there's a "give me the time in all timezones now" button too
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<Hobbsee> jono: hopefully you wont need ops
<jono> Hobbsee, :)
<Hobbsee> jono: but i wont be here for the majority of it
<jono> nice to see a pretty full room here
<Hobbsee> jono: bah.  you'll be fine.
<Hobbsee> jono: /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-classroom list
<jono> heh
<hastesaver> jono, 128 is nowhere near full by #ubuntu standards :-)
<jono> hastesaver, sure
<Hobbsee> jono: the third entry, in particular
<Hobbsee> [00:10]  [Notice]  -ChanServ- 3   10    *!*@ubuntu/member/*                 0s
<jono>  /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-classroom list
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Ah, wise.  I don't think that was there before.
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: me neither
<jono> :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyserver]  by tonyyarusso
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: ompaul must have done it
<Hobbsee> elkbuntu: ^ if you didnt know
<hastesaver> what does it mean? Does it means that all ubuntu members are ops?
<tonyyarusso> hastesaver: For this channel, for open week
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyserver]  by tonyyarusso
<tonyyarusso> My tab-complete skills are terrible.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<tonyyarusso> There we go
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Just got the script - pretty cool, btw.
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee, jono: Wait - he probably won't be able to use that access entry, since his host mask isn't enabled.
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee, jono: But any op can op someone else for a particular session, right?  So as long as somebody is around to give it to him at some point before it starts he'll be fine.
<jono> I am sure we will be fine
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: yes
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: and seeing as an op is any ubuntu member...
<Hobbsee> then again, it probably doesnt cause any harm for jono to be op'd all the time
<tonyyarusso> Odds are there might be just a few?  ;)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jono]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<jono> thanks
<Hobbsee> :)
<freeflying_> hi Hobbsee :)
<Hobbsee> hey freeflying_!
<samk0n> /nickserv identify elsa8650
<Hobbsee> er...
<Hobbsee> you might want to change that password
<Hobbsee> and you wanted /msg nickserv identify elsa8650
<samk0n> bcause of differenr script
<samk0n> :S
<finalbeta> You should test in server window anyway, not in a channel ;)
<atoponce> samkon: you can set your nickserv password as your server password when you connect to freenode
<atoponce> then you never have to '/msg nickserv identify <pass>' and risk showing it in a channel
<atoponce> if using irssi, it's really easy: /server add -network freenode irc.freenode.net 6667 <pass>
<tonyyarusso> In addition to fabbion?'s logs, I also have logging going now, at http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<tonyyarusso> samkon: Having trouble there?
<samkon> because of my connection
<samkon> It goes sometime :S
<samkon> my silly cables
<samkon> :(
<samkon> sorry for it
<makke> samkon: i dont think its your connection
<makke> samkon: (Nick collision from services.)
<Hobbsee> makke: it is, then he's getting his nick back
<makke> samkon: you have posted your nickserv passwd somewhere?
<makke> Hobbsee: someone is ghosting him
<hastesaver> makke, if you mean the person who typed his password in plaintext a little while ago, that was samk0n, someone else.
<Hobbsee> they changed nicks
<Hobbsee> yeah, ghosting on that nick isnt working, it's just a bad connection, it seems
<makke> hmm, bad connection would be a ping timeout or something
<rmunn> Quick question: is anyone going to be putting up transcripts for those who miss a session?
<Hobbsee> rmunn: yes
<Hobbsee> rmunn: they're already going up at !logs
<rmunn> Because I'll be traveling tomorrow and I'm going to miss jono's "Becoming an Ubuntu Member" session.
<rmunn> Ah, good.
<atoponce> rmunn: yeah. there's ubuntulog and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/ that i know of so far
[atoponce(n=aaron@oalug/member/atoponce)]  help
<rmunn> Sorry for my ignorance: what's !logs ?
<rhk_> Will someone link it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<rmunn> Good idea, a link on the wiki would be nice
<tonyyarusso> !logs | rmunn
<ubotu> rmunn: Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<rmunn> tonyyarusso: thanks
<Hobbsee> rmunn: in here, anything prefaced with a ! means a command to the resident bot, ubotu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Hobbsee] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | For more information: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<rmunn> I see. How do I ask ubotu what commands it recognizes?
<Hobbsee> er....i dont remember?
<Hobbsee> !bot
<ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<Hobbsee> there :)
<rmunn> Thanks. I'll go back to lurking now for a while. :-)
<hastesaver> I'll probably miss almost all the sessions, as 15:00 UTC is 20:30 here and if I'm not out of here by 22:00 (= 16:30 UTC), I get locked in for the night :-)
<Hobbsee> hastesaver: there are logs.  i'm missing most of them too
<tomasz> same here -- I think it's 2300 localtime when this starts, a little late for me ;)
<Hobbsee> tomasz: try 2am start :P
<srikanthssn> same here.. hastesaver, where in india ??
<atoponce> 8am start here
<tomasz> 2am yeow
<Hobbsee> which is why i'm not staying up.
<tomasz> i got work in the morning i just can't do that.. =)
<tomasz> understood hehe
<srikanthssn> to top it all i have 2 exams up this week
<Hobbsee> jono: are you going to do the "ask mark" sessions as moderated?
<Hobbsee> ick
<Hobbsee> exams are evil
<tomasz> but they feel so good once you finish 'em =)
<davmor2> no school is evil
<hastesaver> srikanthssn, AFAIK, only India has UTC+0530 :-)
<srikanthssn> hmm ya.. just finished one :)
* lotusleaf finds a desk and paints name on it
<lotusleaf> mine!
<srikanthssn> hastesaver, thats why asked where you are in india ?
<samk0n> I changed my samkon pass but the pass is wrong now
<hastesaver> srikanthssn, and that was my way of answering "yes, but you didn't even need to ask" :-)
<jono> one sec, one the phone Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> jono: no problems
<srikanthssn> hastesaver, free..no probs
<Daylighter> ooh
<fafek2> Ubuntu Open Week starts in next hour, right?
<gnomefreak> fafek2: yes
<fafek2> Great. I can't wait!
<ubulinu> we all can't wait I guess.... the nail-biting ubuntu crowd
<jono> hey
<nmsa> hello
* lotusleaf grins and sways in an ubuntu logo hoola hoop
<jono> Hobbsee, I would like the Ask Mark session to be moderated I think
<jono> I am still weighing up my options here
<HamishTPB> given the weekend's postings I should think so, Jono ;-)
<Hobbsee> jono: use a +z moderation, i guess.  that'll let ops all read the questions.  but i havent used moderated mode before, where i've been moderating.
<hastesaver> jono, maybe you can wait to see from the earlier sessions whether there are any indications it will be necessary ;-)
<Hobbsee> jono: ask Seveas about that, i think.
<Hobbsee> hastesaver: i would expect it would be.  we've had trouble with soem of the classroom sessions before
<jono> hastesaver, indeed
<hastesaver> There are always hecklers in any crowd, I guess...
<lotusleaf> I would hope the sabdfl chat is moderated :)
<pichi__> moin
<lotusleaf> good morning
<pichi__> open day today
<rhk_> inded
<Hobbsee> jono: having said that, +m is usually bad for keeping a crowd interested - it's like web streaming - what's the point?  everything's going on without you anyway
<tonyyarusso> jono: As a heads up, the last regular classroom session had an issue with a repeat join/part spammer using tor, so you might end up having to do an all-tor ban if any idiots try something like that, unfortunately.
<lotusleaf> Hobbsee perhaps, but it controls chaos
<Hobbsee> lotusleaf: indeed
<lotusleaf> Besides, I would think sabdfl is interesting enough to hold interest ;)
<stgraber> the other way is to put the channel into moderated mode (+m), speak and only voice (+v) the people that have question (with removing the +m sometimes to know who has some questions)
<buttari> help
<jono> Hobbsee, good point
<jono> tonyyarusso, right
<jono> tonyyarusso, would be good to have some IRC experts around to protect against this
<gnomefreak> we normally use +m when we hold classes here
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: yes.  what's the point?  you may as well read the irc log?
<Hobbsee> jono: indeed.  elkbuntu's learnign it all :)
<jono> what is +m again?
<stgraber> only OP and Voice can speak
<fafek2> Do you expect many people?
<gnomefreak> Hobbsee: so we can fit the class in under 6 hours ')
<gnomefreak> jono: it mutes everyone except ops and voice
<jono> right
<hastesaver> And what's +z?
<jono> makes sense for the main tuition part
<jono> and then remove +m for the Q+A
<gnomefreak> hastesaver: thats so only ops can read what users say
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: hehe, true
<lotusleaf> rather than removing +m and open potential chaotic floodgates, you could have a seperate channel for questions or ask that one person be a go-between in PM for questions
<jayteeuk> Afternoon all.
<Hobbsee> jono:  +m == moderated
<chrisle> hi is someone from the desktopteam here?
<lotusleaf> example: /msg soandso your questions for consideration
<Hobbsee> chrisle: soon
<lotusleaf> or a particular channel
<farmer> fabbione thanks for the logs mate...
<fafek2> Do you expect many people?
<jono> Ng, go away
<gnomefreak> http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml are the modes
* jono sniggers
<tonyyarusso> fafek2: Well, we already have 161 with an hour to go
<Ng> jono: :(
* jono slaps Ng
<fafek2> Yeah. I think how many of them will take part in discussion and how many of them will be just watching...
<Ng> jono: you think you're better than me? ;)
<jono> Ng, hehe
<Ng> just think of those pennies, my friend :)
<jono> Ng, my asspennies!
<Ng> mwaha
<jono> I wonder if we can break 200 by the time the session begins
<rhk_> would guess so.. Only 40 to go..
<ubulinu> I bet 300, we are here because we couldn't figure how UTC works
<gnomefreak> if you read the topic ther eis a time translater for users that are not sure what time UTC is for them
<ubulinu> I know, thanks, was just a joke... ;-)
<jayteeuk> ubulinu: Speak for yourself.  I'm only here early because I'd have forgotten to turn up otherwise. :D
<HamishTPB> jono lotusleaf Hobbsee etc: if you use +m then no-one who is not opped or voiced will have their messages seen - if you want someone to see the messages but not show them in the channel you need to use +z
<jackflap> should i register my nickname in order to follow this chat or can i just leave it?
<fafek2> Funny... I didn't know what's the UTC thing means too...
<Hobbsee> jackflap: you dont need to, to follow, but you will, if you want to private message people
<gnomefreak> jackflap: you can just leave it we shouldnt have the need to +r the channel
<Hobbsee> fafek2: universal time zone or something
<fafek2> :P
<fafek2> There is only a second between GMT and UTC.
<lotusleaf> HamishTPB: correct, which is why I suggested either a second channel for questions to be submitted, or a go-between person to PM to take question submissions, accepted questions will quote the indivudual who had the question
<HamishTPB> fafek2: UTC=GMT
<jackflap> cheers, ill just leave it then
<fafek2> Yeah, I know.
<lotusleaf> HamishTPB: if you go with voicing someone what is to stop them from going crazy for a short time?
<HamishTPB> lotusleaf: if you use +z then one person can field questions and then voice them when it is their turn to ask or whatever?
<lotusleaf> HamishTPB: whatever works =)
<lotusleaf> HamishTPB: carne asada burritos are delicious any time of the day
<HamishTPB> lotusleaf: nothing to stop them but you could even just forward the Qs being the "moderator" using +z
<gnomefreak> +z will annoy the instructer if hes +o
<HamishTPB> hmmn
<HamishTPB> yeah
<HamishTPB> trying to remember what they do for tutorials on other netw**k
<HamishTPB> hello to all btw :) Been using Kubuntu now for about 6 months and feel like I know some of you already from reading blogs etc :)
<hastesaver> gnomefreak, then let the instructor not have +o. Let others take care of the problems. After all, the instructor needs to concentrate :-)
<Daylighter> we need to develop sort of a screenshot vidcasting software.... so you can do these sessions with a live screen in front of them
<Daylighter> when you start ubuntu up for the first time, have it fetch the latest schedule of sessions and hint to you to try them
<proppy> Daylighter: gobby ?
<davmor2> Daylight isn't that part of what telephany enables you to do?
<pmjdebruijn> Istanbul -> GStreamer -> Flumotion?
<Daylighter> o_o
<Daylighter> I dont know
<dholbach> davmor2: Farsight?
* davmor2 close but no cigar
<gnomefreak> this is gonna be rough.
<gnomefreak> dholbach: you only have an hour :(
<dholbach> gnomefreak: hm?
<gnomefreak> for the packaging 101
<dholbach> for the Packaging 101
<davmor2> dholbach doesn't it use the telepathy as backend or am I mistaken
<dholbach> davmor2: I'm not quite sure what you mean... what uses Telepathy?
<davmor2> farsight
<dholbach> gnomefreak: it's only an introductory session
<gnomefreak> ah
<davmor2> dholbach ignore me it's gossip I'm thinking of
<dholbach> davmor2: telepathy uses farsight, which is a framework for audio/video conferencing
<davmor2> thought it had something to do with it somewhere but then couldn't find reference to it afterwards :(
<davmor2> knew I'd seen the two linked
<proppy> dholbach: does packaging 101 cover making a package without cdbs or dh_* ?
<dholbach> proppy: I'll do little bits of this and little bits of that
<proppy> dholbach: ok thanks
<ezenu3> #join #ubuntu
<tonyyarusso> ezenu3: It's /join
<effie_jayx> it happens to me all the time
<ezenu3> yep, typo
<effie_jayx> :D
<effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, what up dude?
<Lesley> tonyyarusso: you make me laugh!
<tonyyarusso> effie_jayx: Oatmeal!  And skipping my first class, since I'd have to leave in 4 minutes and totally don't feel motivated.
<Hobbsee> haha
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: sounds good to me :)
<Lesley> Hobbsee: still awake!
<Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: where's the wiki link for getting my blog added to planet, btw?
<elvstone> okay. i'm waiting for my new laptop (ordered last week), onto which i will install kubuntu. so now i'll stay here for the whole community thingie and you all have to learn an old FreeBSD fart ubuntu ;)
<effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, where's the first class?
<Hobbsee> Lesley: yeah, doing some work on REVU (eek)
<tonyyarusso> effie_jayx: Here, half an hour
<Hobbsee> Lesley: removing some packages, etc
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPlanet maybe?
<effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, thnaks
<fulat2k> elvstone: what laptop did u get?
<elvstone> fulat2k: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/home/products/notebooks/amilo_si_1520.html <- this one, but with 2 GB instead of 1.
<burner> seems like the first UbuntuOpenWeek thing starts in a half hour or so?  :)
<elvstone> fulat2k: i looked at the ubuntu laptop testing pages and it seems to be reasonably supported.
<fafek2> burner: That's right.
* burner is contemplating between an apple and a system76.com laptop
<jono> Hobbsee, could you op me please
<fulat2k> elvstone: nice.  looks very clen
<fulat2k> clean
<davmor2> Jono: 6 to go 5 to go
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jono]  by ChanServ
<Hobbsee> jono: sure :)
<tonyyarusso> burner: Go with a system76, so you can tell me how they are ;)
<jono> thanks
<Hobbsee> dholbach: i've cleaned up a bit more of REVU :)
<elvstone> fulat2k: :)
<jono> ph33l my p0w3r!
* jono sniggers
<fulat2k> elvstone: better than the dells all over the office :)
* dholbach hugs hobbsee some more
<whiprush> morning everyone!
<gnomefreak> lol
<Hobbsee> hehe
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jono]  by ChanServ
<jono> v.funny :P
<Hobbsee> jono: :D
* rmunn finds this quite amusing... :-D
<jono> I wondered what the hell had happened there :P
<Hobbsee> jono: at least i didnt kickban you.
<jono> woo!
<Hobbsee> [01:36]  <-- jono has left this channel (requested by Hobbsee: " now you ph33l my p0w3r!!!!!!  :P").
<jono> hehe
<fulat2k> elvstone: got myself a core2duo desktop and i'm procrastinating to install kubuntu 6.10 on it :)
<Hobbsee> which, i guess you couldnt undo either, as you're not on the access list
<elvstone> fulat2k: ah. okay.
<Hobbsee> fulat2k: make sure you install edgy on that, not dapper.
* Daylighter only uses Edgy now...
<fulat2k> Hobbsee: correct me if i'm wrong, edgy == 6.10+?
<gnomefreak> fulat2k: yes 6.10 = edgy
<Hobbsee> fulat2k: yep.
<Hobbsee> fulat2k: you may also need 915resolution (in universe) to get the widescreen resolution, if it's a widescreen machine
<fulat2k> cool, then i should be set.  at least the live cd portion loaded properly :)
<Jucato> Hobbsee!
<dcomsa> is there a forum where an ubuntu user can find solution to common problems?
<Hobbsee> Jucato!
<Hobbsee> dcomsa: ubuntuforums.org
* Jucato preps Konvi and Kate for the class
<dcomsa> Hobbsee: thanks
<dcomsa> but i was thinking at an howto
<effie_jayx> hey all what UTC time is it? I am in south america and I'm alittle timelessly lost
<dcomsa> for instance i had a problem with my headphones output until today
<gnomefreak> dcomsa: depends on the problem
<davmor2> 14:42
<ezenu3> is kernel-generic like kernel-386?
<dcomsa> and i want to post the solution
<effie_jayx> davmor2,  thanks bro
<gnomefreak> exo-griffith: i686
<hernan43> mrng
<dcomsa> somewhere accessible to others
<gnomefreak> oops
<gnomefreak> ezenu3: i686
<burner> dcomsa: u can also try the wiki if it's appropriate
<davmor2> jono 2 to go
<dcomsa> burner: is there a ubuntu wiki?
<gnomefreak> !sound
<ubotu> If you're having problems with sound, first ensure ALSA is selected, by double clicking on the volume control, then File -> Change Device (ALSA Mixer). If you are still having problems with sound, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingSoundProblems  and http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php?page=DmixPlugin
<jono> :)
<burner> dcomsa: wiki.ubuntu.com
<stgraber> dcomsa: wiki.ubuntu.com
<tonyyarusso> dcomsa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
<gnomefreak> dcomsa: please keep support question sin #ubuntu
<dcomsa> :)
<dcomsa> thanks all
<dcomsa> i'm not asking for help
<dcomsa> i just want to shorten others searches
<burner> jono: since you're here and it's not yet classtime... lugradio is great!  and jokosher is great!
<ezenu3> gnomefreak, so, I always used kernel-k7 cause my processor is AMD Athlon, but when I upgraded to edgy, it gave me kernel-generic. I guess I should switch back?
<jono> burner, thanks! :)
<gnomefreak> ezenu3: no thats fine
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<davmor2> Burner see now that's gone to his head and he'll not be able to concentrate
<seb128> jono: I think that 200 will be no problem ;)
<ezenu3> gnomefreak, it wouldn't be better to use the Athlon specific kernel?
<gnomefreak> -generic is a few types of kernels rolled into one. smp is now in the generic. if 64 bit you still need the 64 bit kernels. (i cant remembe roff hand what the k7 provided
<burner> eh... people need to know when they do good things davmor2 :)
<rhk_> dcomsa: ubuntuguide.org
<ubulinu> 200 users! jono, how cool is that?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | For more information: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu
<effie_jayx> burner... overwhelming isn't it?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<fulat2k> how much longer? :)
<gnomefreak> 10-15 minutes
* davmor2 bug tester of jokosher and wolveslug member/master
<gnomefreak> give or take
<effie_jayx> jono: great fan of your work... looking forward to jokosher :)
<rhk_> ezenu3: i686 and K7 put together -> generic
<jono> effie_jayx, thanks! :)
<fulat2k> cool
<davmor2> jokosher 0.2 rocks but 1.0 will rock harder
<ezenu3> rhk_, ok, I guess there is no performance benefit to using k7 instead of generic, then?
<effie_jayx> jono: will there be a spanish version anytime soon?
<jono> effie_jayx, of Jokosher?
<effie_jayx> jono: ajam
<dholbach> 0.2 should be translated in a couple of languages, right?
<gnomefreak> ezenu3: it has the k7 modules you wont tell the difference now please keep support questions in #ubuntu
<jono> effie_jayx, I think its available in spanish now :)
<rhk_> exenu3: There is no k7 for the new kernel versions, it's i386 or generic now..
<rhk_> gnomefreak: right!
<dholbach> effie_jayx: jokosher 0.2 will be available in a week or two in feisty
<effie_jayx> jono: good... it will help people in my country alot..
<jono> its in Chinese (China), Danish, Dutch, English (Philippines), English (United Kingdom), Esperanto, Finnish, French, German, Hebrew, Italian, Latvian, Norwegian Bokml, Polish, Portuguese, Portuguese (Brazil), Russian, Slovak, Spanish, Swedish, Tagalog, Welsh
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  :D
<effie_jayx> jono: WOW amazing work....
<jono> :)
<effie_jayx> jono: I am an EFL teacher trying to venture in translating a bit.. since I study Informatics Engineering.. so :)
<ubulinu> effie_jayx: Where do you come from?
<jono> effie_jayx, wow cool :)
<davmor2> dholbach fantastic I can bug report again then
<jono> brb
<effie_jayx> ubulinu, Venezuela
<effie_jayx> ubulinu, north of south america
<cs_student> germany
* burner drops out of jono's fan club as it's trendy now
<effie_jayx> ubulinu, what about you?
<effie_jayx> burner LOL
* jono slaps burner 
<jono> :P
<effie_jayx> burner didn't mean to maintream your idol
<lotusleaf> *<:O)
<burner> quick question... is there a description other than the title to these things for UbuntuOpenWeek?  like a syllabus or something?
<jono> burner, not at the moment
<jono> thee is a brief description on the main site
<sjoeboo> burner: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek has descriptions
* davmor2 think burner is jono's b***h
<alfmatos> judging by locations, not many are actually in UTC =)
<devilsadvocate> burner,  there is a wchedule on the wiki
<burner> just curious... i have to work a lot during this week, but knowing when I should try to be around would be nice ;)
<effie_jayx> davmor2, LOL
<burner> devilsadvocate: i saw that, but it only shows the title... like Ubuntu Desktop Team..  not much more detail
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o seb128]  by jono
* burner just plans to idle and log the chan
<sjoeboo> burner: i hear you on the trying to fit some ni while working thing
<fulat2k> alfmatos: most definitely not :)
<fulat2k> any idea if the classroom chats are logged and posted for download later?
<alfmatos> fulat2k, don't mind, i can represent for UTC =)
<gnomefreak> fulat2k: yes
<Panzerboy> hello all
<gnomefreak> fulat2k: /msg ubotu logs
<fulat2k> alfmatos: i'll represent for GMT +8 :P
<davmor2> Jono broke 200
<fulat2k> gnomefreak: cool.
<jono> thrashing 200 :)
<devilsadvocate> burner, there is some descriper lower in the page
<fafek2> How meeting with Sebastian Bacher will look like? He'll only talk how to become an desktop team?
<alfmatos> fulat2k, +8 ? where that exactly ?
<fulat2k> alfmatos: southeast asia.
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<fafek2> Errr... You know what I mean
<exo-griffith> fulat2k, I'm in Beijing. :)
<fulat2k> alfmatos: i'm in malaysia.
* jono cranks up some metal
<devilsadvocate> indai
<tonyyarusso> fafek2: We'll find out ;)
<devilsadvocate> india*
<rhk_> GMT+2, Helsinki, Finland
<malcc> jono: That should thin out the numbers some :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<fulat2k> exo-griffith: beijing is +8 too rite? :P
<alfmatos> fulat2k, ok never been anywhere above GMT+2
<exo-griffith> fulat2k, yes, it is.
<fulat2k> alfmatos: you should try someday :)
* Hobbsee defenestrates mnepton in greeting
<fulat2k> alfmatos: i haven't been to anywhere less than +8 :P
* mnepton smells of hyacinth and panic
<seb128> hey mnepton
<mnepton> oy!
<ubulinu> effie_jayx: sorry, I was away... I'm Swiss, my wife is mexican. Bueno, saludos de suiza ;-)
<fulat2k> exo-griffith: how's the weather there?  shanghai seems to be a bit windy/rainy rite?
<alfmatos> fulat2k, have tried GMT-6 or so... but not higher =)
<fulat2k> exo-griffith: any diff in beijing?
<fafek2> One more thing. What's on 16.00? An hour long break before Packaging 101?
<benjamin> Hello :)
<seb128> mnepton: no need to panic, jono is on commands
<mnepton> oh dear sweet jebus ...
<effie_jayx> ubulinu,  great mix... swiss cheese and nachos.. viva mexico :)
* pitti waves
* mnepton runs in circles, beeping incessantly
<Hobbsee> mnepton: no need to panic either.  i left a mattress down on the ground.  however, its' very far away from the window.
<Hobbsee> hey pitti!
<seb128> I'm sure mnepton will be happy to entertain people for one hour at 16utc
<exo-griffith> fulat2k, windy, clear sky, nice orange moon, 2 deg C
<BugMaN> hi
<alfmatos> will the channel be moderated ?
<farmer> Goodnight everybody need to work tomorrow please write nice things on the logs
<seb128> hey pitti :)
* dholbach hugs mnepton like he hasn't seen him for 10 years
<jono> right
<tonyyarusso> alfmatos: In some form - that was being debated earlier
<jono> we nearly ready folks?
<effie_jayx> ubulinu,  greeting from Maracaibo ... the land of the beloved sun
<jayteeuk> Nearly time... and just as I think I might be able to participate in some form, a major incident kicks off.
<jono> #########
<fulat2k> exo-griffith: brr... nice.  it's really bad here.  monsoon season.. blech
<Panzerboy> who's the presenter now?
<jono> ok some house rules
* mnepton hands jono the magic +m
<Grishkin> wahahahahaha
<gnomefreak> Panzerboy: seb128 will be
<Panzerboy> gnomefreak: ok
<jono> we don't want to quieten the channel unless absolutely needed
<jono> so while seb128 is teaching, please be quiet
<jono> discussion about the session can occur in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> feel free to discuss concepts there while the class is going on
<Grishkin> great
<jono> everyone ready?!!!
* seb128 looks lot of people join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<tonyyarusso> jono: If necessary to quiet, does seb128 want +z opt. w/ no ops, or something else?
<jono> we will quieten it if needed, but I think we will be fine
<jono> right seb128, take it away! :)
<seb128> tonyyarusso: I think we are fine, thank you
<Casanova> Grub_Now: !
<seb128> ok
<Grub_Now> pwned
<gnomefreak> jono: only one problem people joining wont know
<Casanova> Grub_Now: tempted
<Grub_Now> Casanova: no, i was pwned
<seb128> Good Afternoon Desktop Lovers :)
<Panzerboy> jono: put it in the topic
<jono> gnomefreak, I will update the topic
<pitti> Good afternoon, Monsieur Bacher!
<seb128> I'm Sebastien Bacher, and I'm working on the Ubuntu Desktop
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:jono] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | For more information: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussion in #ubu
<seb128> and I'll lead the discussion for the next hour apparently ;)
<seb128> so let's get started
<seb128> looks like we have some Desktop Team members around
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Hobbsee] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions in #
<seb128> want to present yourself quickly guys?
<Hobbsee> gah
<dholbach> Hello everybody, I'm Daniel Holbach, work with "magic" seb128 in the Desktop Team and help him to work on bugs, take care of accessibility related packages, look after Telepathy and Galago packages, try to keep our wiki clean, package new stuff, do a bunch of other things I forgot in the list and try to be there for everybody. I think the Desktop Team's secret to success is Hugging.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Hobbsee] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions in #
* pitti is Martin Pitt, working on Utopia related packages on Gnome
* seb128 hugs dholbach
* seb128 hugs pitti
* dholbach hugs seb128 back
<Panzerboy> come on guys :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Hobbsee] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<seb128> other desktop guys who want to say something? ;)
<BugMaN> I'm BugMaN and i am admin of Italian Translation gruopu, and in free time i  help triage bugs in Desktop Team.
<pitti> also, all sorts of i18n
<Hobbsee> sorry guys :(
<Grub_Now> pwned again
<shastry> Grub_Now: he lies :|
<buccaneer> Jee Willikers, I am in an Ubuntu Classroom
<seb128> So the Desktop taking is basically the people who take care of the Ubuntu desktop and try to make it rocking
<Grub_Now> darn
<Grub_Now> Casanova: liar !
<shastry> hmpf
<seb128> I've some notes for the session
<seb128> I'll copy then by block and people are free to comment after each ones
<seb128> does it work for you?
<Panzerboy> seb128: yeah
<seb128> ok, let's go then :)
<seb128> The main goals for the team are:
<seb128> - update desktop packages when new upstream versions are available
<seb128> - make easy for users to try new cool softwares by packaging them quickly
<seb128> - have a good collaboration with upstream
<seb128> - triage and fix desktop bugs
<seb128> - make the Ubuntu Desktop ROCK!
<seb128> 
<seb128> Those are the major goals for the team
<seb128> any remark or questions on that?
<crevette> Hello
<fafek2> How do you know which packages want Ubuntu users?
<rmunn> How does the team decide what falls in the category of "desktop packages"?
<Panzerboy> seb128: this includes all the xgl aiglx compiz beryl stuff?
<seb128> fafek2: we look at forums, lists, bugs
<gnomefreak> Panzerboy: no
<seb128> Panzerboy: not really
<jono> ssh people, lets do Q+A at the end of the tutorial section
<seb128> there is a desktop-effects subteam for those
<seb128> ok
<gnomefreak> :)
<Keyseir> holy ops batman
<Panzerboy> seb128: ok :)
<seb128> Where you can find members of the desktop team:
<seb128> - the #ubuntu-desktop@freenode IRC chan
<seb128> - the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list
<seb128> we also look at launchpad bugs for desktop packages
<seb128> so let's see the things you can do for the desktop team if you want to contribute
<seb128> you can
<seb128> * Work on Bugs:
<seb128> Bugs managements is a good part of the work for the desktop team at the moment and required to prioritise the work and now what problems should worked first
<seb128> .
<giskard> hi ;)
<mnepton> seb128: you also get yelled at by weird people in montreal.
<seb128> some points about bug management
<seb128> mnepton: right :p
<seb128> - Places for desktop bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
<seb128> - You can help the Desktop Team by joining the bug squad (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
<seb128>  * 236 members to date
<seb128>  * ~60000 bug mails in the last year ;-)
<seb128>  * Hug Days
<Kenton> What is the workflow of a updated package?
<seb128>  * forward useful bugs and investigate with upstream
<seb128>  * make bug useful (reassign them to the right place, ask for required details, get debug backtrace for crashers, clean bugs that should be closed)
<seb128> - help listing bugs that should be fixed for the next version of Ubuntu (or fixes to backport)
<Raiko> Hello
<jono> Raiko, ssh
<seb128> Kenton: let's discuss that after the presentation
<seb128> there is not only bugs
<seb128> there is also communication with other people
<seb128> * Communication with other teams, upstream, Debian, etc:
<seb128> We want to have a good relationship with the people we work with
<seb128> - work on forwarding patches upstream (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/UpstreamDelta), having a low delta is better for everybody
<seb128> - become point of contact between the distribution and upstream for packages you have an interest in
<seb128> - work with other teams and Debian
<seb128> people working on documentation:
<seb128> * Documentation:
<seb128> A good documentation help new contributors to know where to start and also not-so-new team members how to do specific things, or what is to do by example
<seb128> .
<seb128> - help by writing specifications (i.e: documents on launchpad and the wiki that describes the changes we want to get implemented and how)
<seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam) (goals, list of things to do, documentation, how to start, etc)
<seb128> - help the ubuntu-docs team
<Keyseir> gnomefreak, I ran into some weird problems trying to burn a dapper install cd. I downloaded the iso, but the md5sums were different. Reactivated the torrent, it repaired itself for a second. unactivate, broken again. So I tried to leave the torrent open while burning, but the burn came out as a different md5sum sequence and the original iso was an even different sequence even though bt was still open.
<seb128> next point: packaging:
<seb128> * Packaging:
<seb128> Most of the work for a distribution is at the packaging level which means there is some place to contribute there too :)
<seb128> .
<seb128> - help doing desktop packages updates (update the package, test the new version, communicate issues with upstream is there is any)
<seb128> - pick a package you have interest in (contacting the usual maintainer before starting to work on it might be a good idea) and start working on it. No need to have uploads right to start on a package, having your first updates mentored is usually a good start and way to learn. If you do a good job you can quickly become the maintainer for that package
<seb128> - work on fixing issues by writting patches or backporting them from upstream and applying those fixes to the packages
<seb128> - package new softwares
<tux75> salve a tutti
<tux75> ho un paio di problemi con la mia ubuntu..
<seb128> you can also help testing:
<seb128> * Testing:
<seb128> - help testing GNOME, write specific test plans
<Hobbsee> tux75: english only please
<tux75> sorry
<BugMaN> tux75: write in english please, (aspetta che finisce di parlare seb128)
<seb128> and on other things too
<seb128> * Other:
<seb128> - new ideas: bring your good ideas of changes for the Ubuntu desktop and help to implement them
<seb128> - teams: if you can motivate several people to work on a project creating a team around it is a good way to organize work: pda, printing, mono, telepathy, etc
<seb128> 
<seb128> I think I've listed most of the groups of things you can work on as a desktop team member
<seb128> I'll mention some example of tasks to start now
<tux75> i've a problem with my ubuntu: when i try to log in a terminal or into a console, i receive a FAIL_DELAY unknown error.
<seb128> Examples of tasks to start:
<seb128> - If you feel comfortable enough to reply to upstream comment about bugs there is a list of bugs that should be forwarded upstream available on http://tinyurl.com/yzd8t3 (you can also pick bugs not listed there yet, there is plenty of them not categorized to forward)
<seb128> - Clean old 'NeedsInfo' bugs
<seb128> - help out with packaging, maintaining, merging
<seb128> - review bugs with patches attached
<seb128> - look at bugs tagged as 'ubuntulove'
<gnomefreak> tux75: join #ubuntu
<seb128> - write about the new cool changes happening to the UbuntuDesktop world for UWN: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam to make them useful, especially for new contributors (having an updated and useful https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO would be nice by example)
<sabdfl> hey seb128
<seb128> hello sabdfl
<seb128> the starting point on the wiki for the desktop team is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/GettingStarted
<seb128> 
<seb128> ok, so that's probably enough informations presented
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<seb128> let's do comments on that now
<seb128> I'm not sure if the format is ideal, that's the first session ;)
<dholbach> Considering the different teams: If you're good at any programming language, you will find that you can help out in the Desktop Team also, there are bindings and programs which use them for lots of different languages, for example Python, C++, Perl, Java and so on
<at2000> are KDE and Xfce managed by other teams?
<Hobbsee> at2000: yes
<seb128> is that clear for everybody what the desktop team is doing and what you can do to contribute and how to join?
<seb128> at2000: yes
<daschl> seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
<dholbach> at2000: yes, there's the kubuntu-team and xubuntu-team in http://launchpad.net/people
<popey> makes sense seb128
<popey> seb128: can i ask a question?
<seb128> at2000: the desktop team is mainly focussed on the Ubuntu desktop (like the Ubuntu CD desktop)
<mnepton> at2000: the workflows for those teams are roughly the same, with the same goals. mostly what changes is due to differences upstream.
<Panzerboy> popey: don't ask to ask, just ask :)
<popey> :)
<seb128> hum
<fafek2> Don't you have too much responsibilities?
<seb128> jono: any idea for the format of questions?
<seb128> like one at time
<fulat2k> daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
<seb128> and how we control that?
<jono> I think its best to do things one at a time where we can
<seb128> because if everybody asks away that's going to be not easy to manage
<fulat2k> any possibility to include beta releases of packages in a separate repo? :)
<gnomefreak> seb128: have them pm 1 user with the questions
<popey> I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<Riot777> is there some window manager currently more important than other for Ubuntu desktop team or you are trying to support all the same way ?
<finalbeta> Does ubuntu have any project that could use help on coding? perl/python/java/mono. I'm a mid leveled coder so fixing bugs is not my thing. Know several high languages and willing to learn a new one. Does Ubuntu have it's own programs apart from the installer?
<seb128> ok, let's stop questions
<dholbach> daschl: C, Python, C++ sometimes, and others
<jono> ok no more questions for now
<seb128> and get one question a time
<popey> ok
<jono> I will indicate when we accept questions
<seb128> let me catch up
<seb128> <daschl> seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
<seb128> daschl: no need of any particular skill
<seb128> and as much time as you want to spend
<seb128> if you spend 10 min a week to confirm some bugs
<seb128> or make an useful bug report
<snail> finalbeta: ubuntu has lots of programs other than the installer
<seb128> or reply to an user support question
<jono> ok everyone -> ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> then we can pick them out
<seb128> any of that is useful
<seb128> you don't need any particular skill
<daschl> thanks
<seb128> just pick something you feel comfortable doing
<burner> regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
<seb128> might be replying to some user, filling a good bug, forwarding something upstream, etc
<seb128> .
<seb128> next question
<pitti> note: if somebody particularly likes a program and wants to help with bug triage, it would be incredibly helpful if you could establish a contact to upstream, forward bugs to him, discuss bugs, etc.; i. e. become the packages' 'ambassador'
<seb128> <fulat2k> daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
<seb128> .
<pitti> this doesn't require much programming skills, and is a valuable contribution
<seb128> any language used by upstream
<seb128> we don't write a lot of app from scratch
<seb128> we get 95% of what we ship from upstream
<seb128>  .
<seb128> pitti has a good point
<seb128> that's something which is especially appreciate
<fulat2k> seb128: point noted
<pitti> ... and is rewarded with lots of hugs, and even more important, better quality
<pitti> :)
<seb128> if you have interest in a package and want to work on it and as a contact point for it that's really appreciate
<pitti> ... and KARMA
<seb128> by the distro team
<gnomefreak> lol
<seb128> by upstream
<mnepton> finalbeta: pitti's and seb's comments address your question. if you're interested in writing new code rather than triaging, packaging, or applying small modifications, look upstream to the GNOME, KDE, or XFCE desktop projects.
<seb128> and by users
<seb128> <popey> I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
<seb128> popey: you can create a specification for that, or mail a list with your ideas
<popey> which list?
<seb128> ubuntu-desktop if that's something for the desktop
<popey> it is
<seb128> ok, so mail the list
<popey> ok, will do
<seb128> good
<popey> thanks
<jono> everyone, prefix your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with QUESTION so we can spot them easily :)
<seb128> <burner> regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
<gnomefreak> :)
<dholbach> writing a specification and track it in launchpad is a good idea for writing a new app also
<seb128> burner: I've to admit that .odt is not my preferred way ;)
<seb128> the wiki is nice
<seb128> you can also mail the desktop list (with your .odt if that makes the presentation easier for you)
<davmor2> is there a preferred level of detail for bugs I understand that this doesn't work isn't that uesful but what do you class as acceptable
<popey> thanks dholbach
<seb128> davmor2: details on what you were doing, version of Ubuntu you are using
<seb128> if the crash happens on a document, having an example attached is useful
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures may help in some cases also
<gnomefreak> pitti: ambassidor = maintainer?
<seb128> for a bug a debug backtrace (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash) is usually required to do something with the bug
<dholbach> gnomefreak: no, not necessarily. that's somebody being interested and working on the package
<seb128> s/bug/crash
<pitti> gnomefreak: FSVO 'maintainer'; this is mainly a communication issue
<gnomefreak> k
<seb128> next question
<seb128> <at2000> QUESTION: can everyone write a spec in launchpad? does it mean I intend to work on that spec or just suggestion of a feature?
<seb128> 
<seb128> at2000: anybody can write a spec yes
<seb128> no need to work on it, though it make it easier to be implemented
<seb128> we all are already pretty busy
<xerxas> being an ambassador for a package is an "abstract" role, right ? there's no such thing in launchpad, right ?
<seb128> and there is not a lot of extra new things we can implement with only the core team work
<seb128> xerxas: right
<sabdfl> xerxas: that's a good point, we should make that an explicit role
<xerxas> I think it would be a good idea
<seb128> me too
<xerxas> I would like to become ambassador on at least one package, which one, I don't know
<seb128> that would make things easier for upstream too
<gnomefreak> i like that too but having more than one will get confusing
<seb128> they would know who to contact
<xerxas> gnomefreak,  so we'll need some ambassador helpers
<DShepherd> /top
<xerxas> or "ambassador assistant"
<mnepton> gnomefreak: write the spec. :)
<Stemp> isn't one of the role of the package maintener ?
<gnomefreak> i will work on it later today
<seb128> Stemp: we don't have a fixed maintainer
<seb128> next question
<seb128> <DreamLost> QUESTION: translation is dealt upstream?
<seb128> DreamLost: I'm not sure to get the question, and it's not really desktop specific
<seb128> translations come from rosetta
<xerxas> sabdfl, what's up with this ambassador role ?
<seb128> we import upstream translations and people are free to work on them from rosetta
<BugMaN> DreamLost:  translation in Rosetta start from Upstream
<xerxas> should I write a spec for launchapd ? or make a feature request somewhere ?
<wrjevowar> quit
<BugMaN> DreamLost: but some times ubuntu have new string in a package different from upstream
<jpetso> are the rosetta translations fed back to upstream, and if yes, how?
<seb128> DreamLost: does that reply to your question?
<seb128> jpetso: no
<DreamLost> yes, tnks
<davmor2> if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
<seb128> jpetso: rosetta team is working on some feature to make easier for them to get the changes though
<seb128> davmor2: questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<seb128> next one
<seb128> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: Are there more localized teams wornking with the ubuntu-desktop-team.?
<seb128> effie_jayx: can you explain what you want to know exactly?
<effie_jayx> there is an ubuntu grpoup
<effie_jayx> in my country
<seb128> like if there is a desktop-team-<locale>?
<effie_jayx> are people already contributing from there as a group
<effie_jayx> I don't want to oversee the effort of other groups in my region
<seb128> the desktop-team works on the Ubuntu packages
<seb128> that effort is not splitted by region or group
<seb128> you are probably speaking about a locoteam
<effie_jayx> ajam... I just want to know that ... thanks
<seb128> the efforts are not overlaping, don't worry
<seb128> ok
<seb128> next one
<seb128> <Jucato> QUESTION: are there Kubuntu/Xubuntu Desktop Teams too?
<seb128> Jucato: yes, there is a kubuntu and a xubuntu team
<sabdfl> xerxas: perhaps chat with folks on #launchpad, then it could turn into a small feature spec, yes
<seb128> next question
<seb128> QUESTION: what would be the best way to find which packages are in need of maintainers/packagers?
<xerxas> sabdfl, thanks
<seb128> no easy way at the moment I would say
<seb128> look if the package is usually quickly updated
<seb128> and on the work done on its bugs
<Hobbsee> anything that has the maintainer set as debian qa, too.
<Hobbsee> (i think)
<dholbach> if you're interested in a certain package, you can ask about it on ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
<seb128> Hobbsee: that's for Debian
<Hobbsee> seb128: true
<seb128> Hobbsee: a package with no Debian maintainer can have somebody taking care of it on the Ubuntu side
<seb128> that is a good question though
<Hobbsee> seb128: true, but how likely is that?
<seb128> it would be interesting to have some information at the launchpad level about that
<mvo> or we could use watch files from debian when available
<seb128> like "how actively a package is maintained"
<seb128> anybody having good idea on how to evaluate that?
<seb128> mvo: right, please open a launchpad feature request (if not already filed) :)
<xerxas> QUESTION: can I close some bugs that are in NEEDINFO for a long time (what does a long time mean ?)
* mvo makes a note
<sabdfl> we do track the idea of a maintainer for a package in Launchpad
<xerxas> (I'm having hard times making decision with malone )
<sabdfl> debian asked us to distinguish between the debian maintainer and the ubuntu maintainer or team
<seb128> xerxas: question on -chat please, yes, usually I wait one month and close it if there is no reply to the request for informations about the problem
<seb128> next question
<seb128> <davmor2> QUESTION: if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
<kappa> the difference between versions of a package in Ubuntu and in upstream can be used as a measure of active maintaintership
<seb128> davmor2: since edgy "apport" will created a crash file when a crash happens
<seb128> davmor2: they are stored to /var/crash
<Grishkin> grishkin@ULTRA:/media/cdrom$ ls /var/crash
<Grishkin> ls: /var/crash: No such file or directory
<seb128> davmor2: you can read about it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
<srikanthssn> seb128, what about drapper ?
<crosis> dapper, not drapper
<seb128> srikanthssn: for GNOME programs bug-buddy is open after the crash and you can get the bt from it
<seb128> srikanthssn: otherwise cf https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash (use gdb)
<seb128> 
<seb128> next question
<seb128> <at2000> QUESTION: what is the process to submit a patch for a package? is this documented somewhere?
<seb128> at2000: attach it to the corresponding bug to launchpad
<seb128> if there is no bug open one
<leks> QUESTION: May I ask, why patches fixing eth0 (e1000) on my ibm t60 are in edgy, but not in feisty?
<leks> T60 Thinkpad
<seb128> leks: question to -chat please, and I don't know about that, not really desktopish :)
<at2000> so someone will review the pack and check-in if appropriate?
<at2000> do I need to do anything to the bug report to notify someone to review?
<seb128> at2000: correct
<seb128> no
<at2000> ic
<burner> seb128: are there any plans for better remote access support via the Desktop team here or would that be more of a gnome/kde/xfce thing?
<seb128> people will get the mail about your patch
<seb128> burner: question to -chat please
<seb128> next one
<seb128> <daschl> QUESTION: say i want to fix a bug. this bux was fixed in upstream how can i get that into the ubuntu package? how can i handle the "ok i have a bug here, what should i do next"-thing?
<seb128> 
<seb128> daschl: that is a good question
<seb128> daschl: open a bug to launchpad saying it's fixed upstream and you would appreciate a backport of the fix
<seb128> pointing to the upstream commit or attaching a patch make the job easier for us
<seb128> or pointing the corresponding upstream bug
<dholbach> we have a canned bug search for "patch attached"
<seb128> we tend to backport only annoying issue and not every glitch fix though
<daschl> i c .. thanks!
<seb128> so better to not flood us with request to backport every commit
<seb128> we would be happy to backport lot of patches but it's a lot of work and we have only few people working on desktop packages atm
<seb128> hint: you can help making a package better by co-maintaining it ;)
<daschl> so more people working = more backports available, right?
<seb128> daschl: correct :)
<seb128> 
<seb128> next one for dholbach
<seb128> <proppy> QUESTION: is there something like 'debian wnpp' for ubuntu ?
<seb128> I think we have some wiki page for that
<bhale> revu?
<seb128> dholbach usually knows the wiki better than me :)
<bhale> wiki.ubuntu.com/revu
<seb128> bhale: wnpp is "I would like to get that packaged"
<bhale> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
<seb128> bhale: REVU is only for things already packaged no?
<dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
<bhale> seb128: oh, i was thinking of something else then
<apokryphos> ubotu: revu
<ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
<bhale> ITP, not RFP
<bhale> lart me please
<dholbach> (ITP = Intent to package, RFP = Request for package)
<seb128> proppy: <dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
<seb128> here you go :)
<dholbach> which has moved to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates :-)
<proppy> seb128: thanks
<seb128> np
<seb128> next question
<mherweg> MOTU ?
<seb128> <davmor2> QUESTION: How many package currently fall under the duristiction of the desktop team to give us some idea of how much work you have?
<Hobbsee> lots.
<apokryphos> mherweg: /msg ubotu motu
<seb128> https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs
<seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs
<seb128> 1813 bugs assigned
<seb128> 2345 bugs subscribed
<seb128> we looked recently with dholbach and all the desktop-bugs (closed one included) is like 7500 bugs
* dholbach high-fives seb128
<pikkio> lots of work :)
<seb128> and there is probably a good bunch not assigned to the team
<seb128> dholbach: https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packages is empty, did it use to work?
<davmor2> seb128 so does that include the packages you have to update or is that just physical bugs
<seb128> we used to have a table of the packages with number of bugs I think
<Hobbsee> davmor2: physical bugs
<seb128> davmor2: bugs
<dholbach> seb128: that's only for packages, where desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com is the maintainer
<seb128> davmor2: I'm not sure about packages, it's about an hundred I would say
<dholbach> seb128: you mean https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packagebugs
<davmor2> okay
<seb128> see the link from dholbach
<seb128> it has a list of packages
<seb128> dholbach: thank you :)
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<dholbach> :-)
<seb128> next one
<seb128> (10 min left)
* dholbach hugs seb128 back
<seb128> <jpetso> QUESTION: is there any way to work on packages on the currently stable release, without having to set up stable+1?
<Hobbsee> by using a pbuilder, or dual booting
<Hobbsee> !pbuilder
<ubotu> pbuilder is a system to easily build packages in a clean chroot environment. To get started with PBuilder, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
<seb128> jpetso: not easy, some apps don't change a lot though
<seb128> or pbuilder
<seb128> or you can still help on the wiki, packaging new apps if the requirements are available on stable
<seb128> or triage bugs
<seb128> or reply to support requests
<pitti> some desktop applications are a bit hard to work on in chroots/pbuilder; for these, vmware comes in handy
<jpetso> ok :)
<giskard> pitti, what apps?
<seb128> next one
<pitti> giskard: things like gdm, dbus, etc.
<seb128> <davmor2> QUESTION: Do you favour slab over the standard gnome interface for menu's?
<seb128> .
<seb128> davmor2: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-slab
<pitti> or any app that requires newer libraries, etc.
<giskard> pitti, ahhhh! oki :)
<seb128> davmor2: that's the spec about that, the reply is "no"
<seb128> we will likely ship it on the CD
<seb128> maybe with a desktop profiles app which allow to switch profiles easily
<seb128> but we will not pick a different default than upstream
<strosset> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> get your final questions in people!
<jono> five mins left!
<strosset> \join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<guebay> What does UTC mean? Here is 16:54 (Timezone Berlin). How can I calculate now what this is in UTC?
<jono> although we can run over a little as there is no session next
<andre> strosset: /
<seb128> next
<dholbach> guebay: date -u
<giskard> guebay, date -u
<seb128> good question
<strosset> thx
<seb128> <exo-griffith> QUESTION: You mentioned the ubuntulove tag in launchpad. What does it mean?
<seb128> 
<Hobbsee> guebay: see the tinyurl link in the topic, too
<giskard> dholbach, :
<jpetso> guebay: UTC = Berlin - 1
<seb128> exo-griffith: that's an "if you look at something to do", like something easy to start and useful
<seb128> dholbach has tagged a bunch of those bugs
<seb128> I'm trying to do that too
<seb128> we will put extra work on that and the TODO list too
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs has a "Tasks" section
<exo-griffith> so they're a good place to start then?
<seb128> it's a way to make easy for people to find something they can start on
<seb128> right
<seb128> because there is so many component, not easy to know where to start
<seb128> we are trying to figure way to make that first step easier
<exo-griffith> Cool. Thanks. I'll check them out. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntulove
<seb128> if you have any suggestion on the topic feel free to join #ubuntu-bugs to discuss them at any time :)
<seb128> or #ubuntu-desktop
<seb128> next
<seb128> <Jucato> QUESTION: what is the process for updates (bug fixes and security patches)? how long does it take for bugs that have been patched/fixed upstream to be patched in a current release?
<bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<seb128> Jucato: for stable updates: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<seb128> for unstable version?
<seb128> as fast as we can come to it
<pitti> Jucato: for security bugs, we work independently from upstream releases
<seb128> as mentionned before we have some thousand bugs
<leks> QUESTION: Did ubuntu decide between compiz and beryl already ?(go for compiz!)
<seb128> and an hundred packages
<pitti> Jucato: when there is a patch, we review/QA/test it and issue an USN
<bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
<Jucato> alright, thanks! :)
<gnomefreak> sabdfl pitti the spec for ambassadors is already made https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ambassadors
<seb128> and only a couple of people working on them
<seb128> so it can take some time
<apokryphos> leks: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please =)
<gnomefreak> nvm
<seb128> ok
<leks> sorry :-$
<seb128> hour is over but there is no session next and still some QUESTION
* pitti rings the bell
<seb128> so let's keep going :)
<Hobbsee> seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
<seb128> Hobbsee: -chat please
<jono> ## well, you lucky people, there is no session for the next hour so seb is going to keep going while the questions are coming - keep posting the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Hobbsee> seb128: that was from -chat
<jono> :)
<Hobbsee> seb128: i just missed the name
* mvo hugs seb128
<seb128> Hobbsee: oh, I pick them in order, no need to bother, thank you :)
<Hobbsee> okay
<seb128> Hobbsee: or do you want to copy them in order?
<seb128> Hobbsee: (you skipped one)
<seb128> waouh, lot of questions
<Hobbsee> seb128: wasnt trying to.  thought you were picking and choosing, due to time.
<Hobbsee> yes, exactly
<seb128> ok, let's select
<Rawplayer> hi
<Hobbsee> hence i picked one that you definetly want to answer, as it gets asked a lot
<seb128> Hobbsee: please copy there the interesting one then
<seb128> good
<Hobbsee> i just did.
<seb128> please include the name :)
<seb128> so I know who I reply to :)
<Hobbsee> it ran away...looking...
<Hobbsee> seb128: <daschl> QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
<seb128> let's give a quick reply to the previous one
<seb128> <Hobbsee> seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
<seb128>  Hobbsee Hobbsee|Remote
<seb128> since that's a good question
<seb128> no tutorial afaik
<seb128> but an excellent idea
<Hobbsee> wasnt jono writing one?  where would it be put?
<seb128> so if anybody wants to work on one
<dholbach> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-August/019922.html has information for getting your patch uploaded into the archive
<daschl> i'm really lost when it comes to that topic ;)
* Hobbsee demands that jono GET WRITING!  :P
<dholbach> attaching a patch to a bug report is a very good start, or filing a bug at all and testing patches that come up :)
<seb128> any contribution to lower the first step for people who want to contribute is welcome :)
<seb128> dholbach: the issue is that "writting a patch" is not something easy for beginners
<Dannilion> ;...;[p....,,,kkkkkk,,,,,llllll;pppp[##
<pointwood> yeah, a tutorial would be very welcome
<seb128> we should document how to make a patch
<dholbach> surely not
<Dannilion> '''iiiioip'#
<Dannilion> #~#''''] ] ########
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+b %Dannilion!*@*]  by Hobbsee
<daschl> i wanted to ask that too.. because i dont know how to create a patch but i thought this is not a desktop-related problem
<dholbach> "Patching packages!" a talk by pitti later this week
* pitti just finished preparing the talk
<seb128> ACTION; jono to write some nice tutorial
<pointwood> what info should I provide when I want to report some hardware that doesn't work? example: a printer
<Hobbsee> seb128: he's on the phone
<dholbach> Thu 30th Nov 18:00 UTC
<seb128> ok
<dholbach> pointwood: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<seb128> daschl: good point, we are going to fix that :)
<seb128> Hobbsee: next question ?
<daschl> thanks seb
<seb128> np
<Hobbsee> seb128: <pikkio> QUESTION: when a bug is fixed in launchpad, will be always fixed in upstream as well?
<seb128> no
<seb128> pikkio: few upstream read launchpad bugs at the moment
<seb128> if you can encourage upstreams to do so you are welcome :)
<seb128> otherwise we need to "forward" bugs upstream
<pikkio> ok, thanks :)
<Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: What are priorities of Desktop Team now, apart from specs for Feisty Fawn?
<seb128> that's a part of the bug triage work I mentionned before
<seb128> if you are confident a bug is upstream you can file it to their bug tracker directly too
<seb128> 
<pikkio> i'll do it :)
<seb128> fafek2: catch up with bug flood, package new versions of desktop apps
<dholbach> and package new exciting apps :-)
<seb128> working on documentation etc to make easier for people to join the team
<seb128> the specs have already enough goal to keep the core team busy for the cycle actually
<fafek2> I mean what's the vision? How Ubuntu should look like in your opinion?
<seb128> any specific point?
<seb128> we are likely to have a composite manager installed by default for feisty (compiz or beryl)
<Hobbsee> the releated question there:  <kai[sds] > QUESTION: what is the long term vision for the ubuntu-desktop beyond feisty? what are the areas you are not satisfied with yet (regarding features not bugs)?
<seb128> and I think we might give a try to tracker
<dholbach> we'll have exciting Telepathy bits and bobs :-)
<seb128> and telepathy too, right
<giskard> yeah!
<seb128> no "long term" vision
<jonibo> What's the advantage of tracker over beagle???
<bhale> "the coolest new stuff"
<seb128> we want better visual experience
<seb128> and the best from upstream world
<seb128> visual bling is compiz or beryl atm
<bhale> tracker is more lightweight than beagle
<kai[sds] > seb: so basically gnome defines that vision?
<seb128> we will likely work on a better GDM experience too
<seb128> kai[sds] : not only GNOME, but upstream
<seb128> compiz or beryl are not part of GNOME
<jonibo> bhale: due to it not being Mono?
<seb128> tracker neither
<bhale> jonibo: no
<seb128> jonibo: beagle is another option
<seb128> we have nothing decided yet
<giskard> seb128, compiz or beryl will be handled by ubuntu-desktop?
<seb128> and that's not going to be a quick discussion
<seb128> better to not start it here today :)
<seb128> giskard: ubuntu-desktop-effects
<seb128> giskard: member of ubuntu-desktop will look at it too for pretty sure
<giskard> ok.
<seb128> especially if that's part of the default desktop
<Hobbsee> seb128: *grin*
<seb128> next :)
<giskard> :)
<seb128> Hobbsee: next one please :)
<Hobbsee> QUESTION: How do you choose which program to use as default (using the compiz/beril example)?
<seb128> hum
<kai[sds] > but shouldn't people think about some kind of direction and not just go with the upstream flow? i mean upstream there are lots of nice innovations, but they probably dont look at the desktop as a whole
<Hobbsee> (seb128: there are a lot of beryl/compiz related questions)
<seb128> that's not easy to choice
<seb128> there is our feeling about the software
<gnomefreak> that is not really the -desktop teams products
<seb128> how upstream is responsive
<seb128> user feedback on it
<seb128> etc
<mvo> the technical comite will choose in the end AFAIK
<jonibo> biggest question I would have about desktop effects is:  how do you avoid leaving people with old graphics card behind?
<WebMaven> jonibo: make the effects optional.
<seb128> fallback to metacity for such configs
<seb128> we need to work a good way to know if effects are working fine for that though
<seb128> it'll be one box to click to have effects or not anyway
<Hobbsee> seb128: i think that's a wider question than just compiz/beryl, fyi - how do you decide out of all gnome apps which to include?
<seb128> <seb128> that's not easy to choice
<seb128> <seb128> there is our feeling about the software
<Hobbsee> ah, missed that
<seb128> <seb128> how upstream is responsive
<seb128>  user feedback on it
<seb128>  etc
<Hobbsee> sorry, was scrolling for more questions
<seb128> np
<jonibo> But that means you are maintaining two systems: one with and one without effects.
<seb128> lot of activity :)
<seb128> jonibo: any other solution?
<jonibo> no, not really.
<seb128> we don't have neither
<jonibo> but it's important that some people keep working on systems without effects...
<seb128> but if you figure one we will be happy to read about it :)
<jonibo> to make sure that they still work ok.
<seb128> yeah
<seb128> to be honest metacity is stable enough
<seb128> and we don't expect lot of work on it
<jonibo> hard to work up an interest to work on systems without effects when you can have them...
<seb128> but we will keep shipping both
<jonibo> good.
<Amaranth> jonibo: Don't worry, I'm sure there will be people that don't use beryl/compiz just because they don't like it. :)
<seb128> not true
<Hobbsee> seb128: <elvstone> QUESTION: Is there any cooperation going on between the Kubuntu and the Ubuntu Desktop Team? I'm a soon-to-be Kubuntu laptop user.
<seb128> some people like visual bling
<seb128> some other don't
<jonibo> alright... I hope that's the case.
<seb128> Hobbsee: on the area used by both we try
<jonibo> i think the metacity/compiz separation is quite safe... it's when more effects get integrated into the core applications that things get sluggish on older systems.
<seb128> elvstone: on the area used by both we try
<seb128> like pitti looked at some kubuntu printing bugs after updating cups I think
<elvstone> seb128: okay :)
<seb128> mvo has a look on some kubuntu specs similar to the Ubuntu ones he works on too
<elvstone> does Kubuntu have a "Desktop Team" of its own?
<dneary> Hi
<dholbach> dneary: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<Hobbsee> elvstone: kubuntu has a whole lot of people in #kubuntu-devel
<Lure> elvstone: there is just kubuntu-team
<apokryphos> elvstone: not specifically. Since the main difference in Kubuntu is the desktop
<seb128> elvstone: no, "kubuntu-team" is sort of "KDE Desktop"
<Hobbsee> elvstone: so sort of.
<seb128> other parts are common
<elvstone> okidok.
<Lure> elvstone: and you can join kubuntu-team (if you want to be notified of kde bugs in launchpad)
<elvstone> Lure: ah. okay.
<elvstone> i really want my laptop now :) it will be in stock 1 dec.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-b %Dannilion!*@*]  by Hobbsee
<seb128> Hobbsee: next?
<pip> Hello all
<apokryphos> elvstone: cool; be sure to join us in #kubuntu around then :)
<Hobbsee> [03:21]  <oz__> QUESTION: are there thoughts to include a preconfigured install-server in ubuntu?
<elvstone> apokryphos: will do.
<pip> Hobbsee: did I miss something exciting ?
<Hobbsee> pip: yes, but there are logs.  see the /topic for more info
<seb128> hum
<seb128> "install-server"?
<seb128> that doesn't look like "DesktopTeamIsh" to me
<Hobbsee> seb128: <DreamLost> QUESTION: do you use any automatic testing tools? Given being hard to test GUIs...
<jackflap> so did any suse developers show up?
<seb128> good question
<seb128> DreamLost: not at the moment
<jackflap> hehe
<seb128> but that's a good remark
<Hobbsee> jackflap: #ubuntu-classroom-chat for chat
<seb128> and something we would be happy to set up
<oz__> seb128: are only desktopish questions allowed now?
<seb128> there is that "Announcing dogtail: a GUI automation and test framework"
<somerville32> Did I miss Sebastien Bache's session?
<seb128> which could be interesting to look at
<Hobbsee> oz__: as that's what this team is about, yes
<eugene> dogtail is pretty useful for automating gui testing
<seb128> if something is interested to make that happen
<seb128> oz__: that's the "Desktop Team" session, so better to ask desktop questions yep
<seb128> oz__: there is plenty of non-desktop session during the week for other questions :)
<seb128> somerville32: still doing Q and A on it
<seb128> DreamLost: do you want to work with us to set up some automatic testing suit for the Ubuntu desktop?
<seb128> that would be really cool :)
<DreamLost> :) stil a litle over my league im afraid :)
<seb128> k
<seb128> still a good thing
<Hobbsee> seb
<seb128> if anybody has interest in it
<Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: Do you develop Ubuntu administration applets?
<seb128> let me know :)
<seb128> fafek2: no, we use gnome-system-tools for that at the moment
<seb128> we already had several discussion if that would be worth starting writing new tools from scratch
<mvo> seb128: if software-properties is a administration applet, then yes, some
<seb128> we didn't for now though
<seb128> right, depending on what you can "administration applets"
<seb128> package managers are administration tools too :)
<Rawplayer> webmin?:)
<seb128> Rawplayer: I'll not reply to that :-P
<juliux> webmin is evil;)
<samgee> quit
<mherweg> yast!
<seb128> next question
<seb128> QUICK
<seb128> before having the chan going out of control :p
<N7C> hi ppls
<Hobbsee> seb128: <bhale> QUESTION: Who does Daniel Holbach's hair?
<seb128> bhale: I suspect it's mvo
<seb128> but we can't say for sure
<giskard> ahahah
<dholbach> bhale: EEHHHHH?
<Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: will Network-Manager ever get installed by default, probably in feisty? plus updated configuration tools, to use it?
<seb128> pitti?
<pitti> that's the plan
<seb128> leks: I think it'll be by default for feisty
<seb128> pitti will know better
<siretart> .oO( if only nm wasn't that buggy... )
<pitti> we will teach it to work better with manual configurations and integrate better with network-admin
<Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: Will the brown ever be ditched, as mark formerly said once? (After the fourth release or something)  sabdfl?
<pitti> yeah, and bug fixing is a must
<seb128> pitti: thank you :)
<_ion> If i may say something related to the earlier tracker vs. beagle question: tracker is not only an indexer, but it also functions as a generic metadata store. For example, if programs use tracker for tagging files, the tags are shared between all programs. Nautilus and the Gtk file dialog could hypothetically have a similar tagging widget as F-Spot has. A library could be made so that any program could easily use such widget.
<Amaranth> _ion: We know.
<_ion> amaranth: I'd guess the person who asked the question didn't.
<jayteeuk> pitti: How do I get involved?  I'd love to see NM as a default install.
<seb128> leks: you will be happy to know that Ubuntu is orange since dapper ;)
<sabdfl> Hobbsee: we have theme teams who are working on complete themes, and if one of those meets the test of being (a) classy and (b) distinctive it could become a new default theme
<sabdfl> leks: ^^^
<apokryphos> leks: this is covered well in Mark's wiki page. Basically little in Ubuntu will be very static, so yeah, it may well (and has) changed over time
<Hobbsee> sabdfl: you want to reply to leks, i'm just pasting questions :)
<pitti> jayteeuk: test it thoroughly, report bugs, work with upstream to get them resolved
<pitti> jayteeuk: we need all hands we can get for this
<giskard> jayteeuk, and triage bugs ;)
<Hobbsee> seb128: <somerville32> QUESTION: One of the SABDFL's goals for feisty was the adoption of emerging desktop technologies. What are these emerging desktop technologies and what goals have the desktop team set to align themselves with this direction?
<apokryphos> somerville32: one of two window managers possibly. Beryl or compiz. Some information:
<apokryphos> ubotu: beryl
<ubotu> Beryl is a window manager that takes advantage of an OpenGL accelerated X environment. See http://forum.beryl-project.org/ - Help in #ubuntu-xgl
<apokryphos> ubotu: compiz
<ubotu> Compiz (compositing window manager) and XGL (X server architecture layered on top of OpenGL) - Howto at http://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager - Help in #ubuntu-xgl - See http://tinyurl.com/pw5ez for Kubuntu systems
<seb128> fafek2: I've read your note about disk-admins on the other chan. The code was not good, but right would be nice to have a new tool for that. I might work on it that cycle, depending on busy I am. If you want to start a such project you are welcome :)
<jayteeuk> pitti: And is there a spec available on the wiki or similar to help me understand how NM interacts with other parts of the system?
<pitti> jayteeuk: not to my knowledge; but feel free to ping me in #ubuntu-devel about this
<apokryphos> somerville32: what will probably happen is that for able systems (good enough graphics cards) they'll adopt one of these window managers by default. These have some cool effects, such as wobbly windows, nice animations, etc. See above pages
<Hobbsee> seb128: [03:33]  <eliteforce> QUESTION: when will a really stable version of ubuntu be released, without xx bugs in core components (:
<jayteeuk> pitti: OK thanks.
<seb128> somerville32: cf discussion on compiz,beryl from some questions ago, we might have a look on beagle or tracker too, and dholbach and the telepathy team are looking on telepathy
<seb128> eliteforce: when upstream stop writting boggus program :)
<somerville32> :)
<seb128> eliteforce: joke aside, we do our best to fix bugs, it's not always easy since there is lot of them
<seb128> dapper was pretty good I think
<seb128> edgy was a very short cycle so it has not been easy
<seb128> anybody can make a difference here by helping fixing a bug :)
<daschl> ill try to do so
<daschl> :)
<seb128> excellent
<seb128> you can get hugs on #ubuntu-bugs for any bug you fix, just let know dholbach :)
<daschl> so i did it with gnu/linux in general.. a friend of mine helped me with my first steps and now i want to give back to the community what i got
<daschl> i just realized that i can talk german with dholbach ;D
<seb128> that's the spirit :)
<seb128> hehe
<seb128> with mvo or pitti
<seb128> too
<seb128> lot of german guys around :)
<amarillion> I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
<juliux> daschl, see also #ubuntu-de
<eliteforce> i think "stable" releases should be delayed sometimes, to get more bugs fixed
<daschl> oh :D .. i just wanted to sign the code of conduct but it seems that the keyserver need some time
<seb128> <binary2k2> QUESTION: If you install a *ubuntu-desktop metapackage, is there an easy way to remove all the dependences, so you remove the desktop environment?
<seb128> binary2k2: apt-get remove *ubuntu-desktop
<seb128> apt-get autoremove
<seb128> that feature is available for apt since edgy
<jonibo> daschl: keyserver has been problematic for the last week... i've been trying too.
<seb128> hugs go to mvo for that one
<fabbione> eliteforce: stable doesn't necessarely mean bug free. stable means that has a constantly predictable behaviour.. including bugs
<leetcharmer> hail, all :D
<davmor2> seb128 shouldn't those be sudo apt-get remove
<elvstone> seb128: so apt-get autoremove *ubuntu-desktop?
<seb128> eliteforce: we delayed dapper for 6 weeks
<elvstone> seb128: or is it two commands?
<leetcharmer> how's it goin' everyone?
<seb128> elvstone: no, "apt-get autoremove"
<stalefries> !hi | leetcharmer
<ubotu> leetcharmer: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-classroom!
<elvstone> seb128: ah. okay.
<seb128> elvstone: it cleans everything marked as to remove
<elvstone> seb128: alright.
<leetcharmer> I'm here for open week :D which part are we at?? Packaging?
* elvstone fbsd fart.
<seb128> davmor2: correct, faster to not type sudo to every command on IRC though :)
<seb128> leetcharmer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<Amaranth> leetcharmer: desktop team. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<seb128> davmor2: we are still doing question for the 15utc one since the 16utc slot was free
<seb128> ups
<seb128> that was for leetcharmer
<leetcharmer> seb128, thanks :D
<seb128> np ;)
<leetcharmer> what did we learn so far? (if I can ask here.)
<Hobbsee> !logs > leetcharmer
<seb128> leetcharmer: we are doing questions and answers for one hour now, not easy to summarize
<seb128> <somerville32> QUESTION: What do you feel is the biggest obstacles facing the Ubuntu desktop team at this time and how do you plan to overcome these obstacles?
<Hobbsee> seb128: were you after more questoins pasted, or will you scroll for htem?
<seb128> Hobbsee: I just picked one
<Hobbsee> bah, that's what i was about to paste :)
<seb128> did you copy one I didn't notice?
<seb128> hehe
<Hobbsee> seb128: the other:  [03:37]  <Grishkin> QUESTION: will KDE4 , firefox 2 and any other new apps be ever backported on dapper?
<Hobbsee> answer both :)
<seb128> somerville32: clearly the number of bugs at the moment I would say
<seb128> overcome: make easier for people to help and try to get upstream helping us when possible too
<seb128> there is just too many of them for the number of people looking at them at the moment
<seb128> we tried to work lot of extra hours, that doesn't scale
<seb128> we need your help :)
<gnomefreak> firefox and kde4 shouldnt be backported anywhere afaik Hobbsee
<seb128> your being anybody who wants to give a hand
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i didnt ask the question
<seb128> Grishkin: no
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i'm just pasting
<gnomefreak> oh
<Grishkin> seb128 , thanks
<stani> will kde4 be ready for kubuntu feisty?
<Hobbsee> no
<gnomefreak> stani: not liekly
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<seb128> Grishkin: the backport team does backport apps
<elvstone> definately not i'd say.
<Hobbsee> stani: there's a preview in the repositories at the moment, but it wont be out in time.
<seb128> those are not easy to backport though
<seb128> especially if they can break other apps
<TLE> Hey so there's a session on pacakging in about 15 min right ?
<seb128> like firefox is used by epiphany-browser, devhelp, yelp, etc
<RadiantFire> i was under the impression a feisty CD was going to be remastered to contain KDE4 whe it was releasd
<seb128> TLE: correct
<jonibo> GSmartMix?  Will it be ready for Feisty?
<Hobbsee> ask the gsmartmix devs
<seb128> RadiantFire: might be, that's not Ubuntu though, that would be a special milestone CD for KDE4 probably, better to ask to the kubuntu team
<apokryphos> RadiantFire: if it's out in feisty's time, yeah. But not for dapper, almost certainly.
<apokryphos> (i.e. kde release date is still open; it may be feisty+1 time till it's out, depending on KDE TB plan of action)
<seb128>  QUESTION: I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
<seb128> amarillion: what do you find hard?
<Hobbsee> seb128: i think we're planning to have repos for it, at some point.  not sure for which releases though
<nosse> what should I learn if I want to squash bugs? and is there an irc channel somewhere full of people wanting to help me to start?
<dholbach> nosse: #ubuntu-bugs
<seb128> as dholbach said
<amarillion> for example: I joined the mailing list for a while. But the amount of bugs is completely overwhelming. So I stopped that immediately
<dholbach> and ubuntu-bugsquad@lists.ubuntu.com of course
<stani> A maybe small request is possible in the channel topic to mention also the current topic, eg now "Ubuntu Desktop" I know it is possible to look it up,etc... but it would be more nice.
<amarillion> It would be nice if there was a way to say... get 10 random bugs each weak
<nosse> thanks
<Hobbsee> seb128: did we want to have a 10 min break between sessions?
<seb128> Hobbsee: yep, we want
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o dholbach]  by ChanServ
<seb128> we will stop on that bug fixing one I think
<seb128> thank you everybody for the questions
<apokryphos> I quite like the KDE method of "JJ:" prefixes for bugs, which indicates Junior Jobs
<apokryphos> k
<jonibo> thanks for the great work, Desktop Team!!!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:dholbach] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: Packaging 101
* somerville32 cheers.
<seb128> many were good one and we had interesting discussions I think
<amarillion> apokryphos, that sounds like a nice idea
<seb128> feel free to join #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-bugs if you have any other question
<seb128> jonibo: thank you :)
<jonasj> j #ubuntu-desktop
<daschl> thank you seb128
<jonasj> oops, sorry
<stani> thanks
<giskard> when packaging?
<apokryphos> few minutes
<seb128> amarillion: we discussed that exact thing during the conf we had recently
<daschl> time to make tea ;D
<seb128> amarillion: that's somewhat what the "ubuntulove" task is for
<Stemp> thank you seb128
<Hobbsee> time to go to bed!
<apokryphos> 'night Hobbsee
<giskard> thank you seb128 :)
<Lesley> nite hobbsee
<Hobbsee> night apokryphos
<daschl> Hobbsee: what time is it?
<Dannilion> Goodnight Hobbsee
<mL_> quit
<Hobbsee> daschl: 4am
<seb128> amarillion: we will work in that direction anyway, making clear notes on how to start and having list of easy tasks for that
<daschl> Hobbsee: ooh :D .. gn8
<Hobbsee> daschl: coudlnt you see some of hte times as i pasted them with the questions?
<seb128> Hobbsee: thank you for helping on the meeting
<seb128> Hobbsee: you did a good work :)
<seb128> thanks everybody
<amarillion> seb128: thanks, I would like to see that
<daschl> Hobbsee: i didn't remeber them
* andre hugs seb128
<dholbach> thanks seb128
* proppy hugs seb128
<Jucato> thanks for the class
* seb128 hugs everybody
* proppy hugs dholbach
<davmor2> thanks seb128
<dholbach> :-)
<javamaniac> hugs hour?
<seb128> hi andre :)
<fafek2> Have a nice day! Good buy!
<fafek2> * bye!
<andre> :)
<Hobbsee> seb128: :)
* Celldweller hugs......
* Jucato tries to make some notes while waiting...
<elvstone> damn i really have to go shopping when i get off work in 3 min.. will be a bit late for packaging.
<elvstone> everybody stall it! :)
<somerville32> :D
* Celldweller is confustered
<Celldweller> what in the world is this room for lol... do i have to enroll
<Celldweller> sounds fun
<newz2000> elvstone: it's logged and there are other packaging sessions planned
<newz2000> Celldweller: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<nalioth> elvstone: there will be transcripts
<apokryphos> Celldweller: check the channel topic for all the info.
<bettsp> Has anyone converted the Open Week calendar to iCal format? That way, people could add it to Evolution and it'd do the time zone'ing automatically
<Jucato> nalioth: offtopic... where are the transcripts for the NWN Ubuntu classes I missed?
<levander> Jucato: you've checked the URL in the topic?
<TLE> bettsp: there's a google calender with appropriate timezones it can imported into evolution
<somerville32> TLE: Is anyone keeping the google calendar up to date?
<Jucato> levander: yeah. I was sort of looking for transcripts, not just logs, but thanks anyway :)
<rmjb> TLE: evolution isn't respecting the timezone difference
<TLE> somerville32: I assume it's being done automatically :: rmjb oh sorry, I wasn't aware if that
<TLE> rmjb: well then export from google to ical, wouldn't that work ?
<davmor2> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<rmjb> I have the google calendar in evolution in ical format, but it didn't shift the times
<dholbach> Hello everybody! We'll move on to  Packaging 101  now. If you have any questions, can you PLEASE move them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and add "QUESTION:  " to them, to make them easier readable
<dholbach> I'll have a look every now and then and answer them, if they refer to what I'm currently talking about, if not we can deal with them later.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:dholbach] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Packaging 101
<dholbach> If you want to become part of the MOTU team, or help out with packaging in general, apart from knowing how to write or debug code, it's good to know the tools the distribution uses.
<Adri2000> hi :)
<dholbach> This session won't make you a packaging expert, but afterwards you will have heard of some things, which will make it easier to find your way around. There'll be a MOTU session on Wednesday, 15.00 UTC and Saturday on 16.00 UTC, which will cover what the MOTU team does in more detail.
<xeruno> why isn't this channel moderated?
<dholbach> Please run the following command, it will take some time to work in the background.
<dholbach>     sudo apt-get install pbuilder; sudo pbuilder create
<_tx> hi
<dholbach> rmjb: MOTUs are the "Master of the Universe", the team of maintainers that takes care of the package in Universe and Multiverse - that's where you start as a package maintainer.
<dholbach> rmjb: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<dholbach> Packaging - what does that involve?
<dholbach>  * adding enough information to the Upstream source, to make it buildable on a minimal system.
<dholbach>  * split the installed files up into separate packages depending on the target audience
<xeruno> dholbach, could you please moderate this channel?
<dholbach>      ^- example everybody uses libgtk2.0-0, but not everybody has an interest in libgtk2.0-dev
<apokryphos> with +z would be better
<dholbach> come on guys, that's not necessary at the moment
<dholbach> move chatter and discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<jpetso> xeruno: it worked before, i think it's ok to trust everyone on being quiet
<dholbach>  * make the packages work out of the box
<dholbach>  * add copyright information, nice description, documentation, etc.
<dholbach> Package maintenance involves far more than that, Jordan Mantha (Laser_away) will give a talk about that later today at 21.00 UTC and Thursday at 20.00 UTC.
<dholbach> First we'll install some tools we'll need for the session:
<dholbach>    sudo apt-get install devscripts dpkg-dev build-essential
<_tx> what about complying programs in Ubuntu to be able to work on all the platforms (ppc, x86, and x86_64)
<dholbach> I also prepared an example package we'll use also:
<dholbach>    mkdir 101; cd 101; wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/packaging101.tar.gz
<jonh_wendell> dholbach: what does pbuilder create do?
<dholbach> jonh_wendell, _tx: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please and add "QUESTION:" to your questions
<giskard> _tx, we have autotools for this kind of stuff (if i understand correctly your question)(btw, question on -chat)
<nmsa> C(01:06) <@dholbach>    mkdir 101; cd 101; wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/packaging101.tar.gz
<nmsa> sorry :)
<dholbach> I learned most from looking at existing packages and trying to fix them, so let's take a look at the libsexy package. It's the one in feisty, I broke a bit to illustrate a few common problems you'll face in the daily work as a package maintainer or Ubuntu developer.
<dholbach> If you untar the packaging101 tarball, you'll find the following files:
<dholbach>   libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.diff.gz  libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc  libsexy_0.1.10.orig.tar.gz
<_tx> Some things I write don't work well with ppc or x86 but work well on the x86_64 namely my system.
<dholbach> Together they make the source package. The .orig.tar.gz is called the 'original upstream tarball', the '.diff.gz' file is the changes we need to do to make the package buildable and working correctly in Ubuntu. The .dsc provides meta information like checksums, etc.
<dholbach> To unpack the source package run
<dholbach>   dpkg-source -x libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc
<dholbach> If you change into the directory and have a look into it, you'll find a debian/ directory, which contains the packaging information.
<dholbach> Let's try to build the package now. You can use dpkg-buildpackage, but running debuild is easier mostly. So to run a build, simply type
<dholbach>   debuild
<dholbach> 
<dholbach> in the directory.
<_tx> Question:How well do users give you feedback here?
<dholbach> The friendly build script might now ask you to install some build dependencies, after you did that, it should be spitting out some interesting messages.
<dholbach> _tx: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mattl> jono: all set?
<dholbach> in my case the build is complaining (among other things) about the following:
<dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c: In function 'sexy_tooltip_new_with_label':
<dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:143: warning: implicit declaration of function 'gtk_label_new'
<dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:143: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast
<dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:144: warning: implicit declaration of function 'gtk_label_set_markup'
<dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:144: warning: implicit declaration of function 'GTK_LABEL'
<dholbach> It's a problem I added myself. :-)
<jonh_wendell> :)
* proppy hugs dholbach
<dholbach> We will need to patch the source to make it build again.
<dholbach> If you have a look at debian/rules you will see that it mentions /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/simple-patchsys.mk - after working with packages for a while that it means you can use cdbs-edit-patch to add a patch. Martin Pitt (pitti) will give a separate session on how to patch packages on Thursday, 18:00 UTC.
<dholbach> First we run     fakeroot debian/rules clean      to clean up our existing build again.
<dholbach> next we run       cdbs-edit-patch 01-fix-gtk-breakage
<dholbach> as I said before, pitti will explain what happens then :-)
<pitti> correction: patching source packages will be Tuesday 18:00 and Thursday 17:00 UTC
<dholbach> thanks pitti
<dholbach> (Note:  cdbs-edit-patch  needs  cdbs  installed.)
<dholbach> Once we're presented with a subshell, in a directory like /tmp/cdbs-new-patch.R29983/libsexy-0.1.10.new , we edit  libsexy/sexy-tooltip.c  with our editor of choice
<dholbach> and add a missing     #include <gtk/gtk.h>
<dholbach> just below the existing   #include
<dholbach> now save the file, and hit Ctrl-D
<dholbach> ls debian/patches/       should show our shiny new patch
<dholbach> Now we run         debuild       again and see if we fixed the package.
<dholbach> It looks like our attempt succeeded.
<dholbach> ls ../*.deb    will show us the packages we made
<dholbach> I'll answer a bunch of questions after the next step.
<dholbach> As I explained above, part of the packaging work is trying to make sure that a package builds in a minimal environment also. Why?
<dholbach> Because on our build daemons, a minimal system will be created for each package build to make sure it works in every, even a fresh, scenario.
<dholbach> We will now generate a new source package with the changes we made earlier.
<dholbach> fakeroot debian/rules clean
<dholbach> debuild -S -sa
<dholbach> should take us there.
<dholbach> cd ..; sudo pbuilder build libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc      should give the pbuilder some work and we can take a look at a few questions.
<guebay> What is the diff between debuild and dpkg-buildpackage?
<dholbach> <xeruno> QUESTION: what's  cdbs
<dholbach> cdbs is a collection of scripts that make packaging, especially writing debian/rules (a Makefile to automate the package build) a lot easier, by simplifiying common tasks.
<dholbach> <TLE> QUESTION: Will the script disregard temporary editor files when it does the patch ?
<dholbach> TLE: I'm not sure what you mean with editor files
<giskard> xeruno, and.. you can read the package Description: (apt-cache show cdbs)
<giskard> dholbach, i guess .swp or file~
<dholbach> It's better to get rid of them. They will show up in the .diff.gz and in case of binary files make the build fail.
<dholbach> <DraxNS> QUESTION: is there a short manual on how to make simple packages? like to create package for krusader from source?
<dholbach> I will later post some links to help with packaging, but I fear that packaging will always be a bit tough in the beginning.
<dholbach> <amarillion> QUESTIION: Will debuild automagically add all patches in the debian/patches directory
<dholbach> amarillion: the rules in debian/rules (namely simple-patchsys.mk) takes care of that
<dholbach> <bettsp> QUESTION/ASSERTION: It only succeeds if my name is Daniel Holback
<giskard> ahah
<dholbach> bettsp: I'm sorry, yes you're right. Either disregard the message or run    debuild   with  -k<your keyid>
<dholbach> <proppy> QUESTION: you refer to 'our build daemon' is that kind of pbuilderd ?
<seb128> (it works too when it can't sign the package)
<seb128> (that's just a warning)
<bettsp> dholbach: You forgot to run the S-expression I added in the next line to fix my misspelling of your name :)
<dholbach> proppy:  the build daemons ( https://launchpad.net/+builds ) use sbuild, which is very similar
* proppy hugs dholbach
<dholbach> bettsp: yes, I should have said "please add"
<dholbach> Ok, my pbuilder is 'finished' now - we'll get back to questions later again.
<dholbach> funnily enough the build fails with:
<dholbach> checking for PACKAGE... configure: error: Package requirements (pango >= 1.4.0, glib-2.0 >= 2.4.0, gtk+-2.0 >= 2.4.0, libxml-2.0) were not met:
<dholbach> No package 'gtk+-2.0' found
<dholbach> This is because libgtk2.0-dev is not installed in the minimal environment I was talking about, but how does pbuilder know what to install?
<dholbach> if you edit   debian/control   you will find the line    Build-Depends
<dholbach> This line indicates the packages that need to be installed to build the package correctly. We'll just add  libgtk2.0-dev
<dholbach> after that we'll run   debuild -S  again
<dholbach> please note that this time we don't need to run   fakeroot debian/rules clean   why?
<proppy> (cause we build using pbuilder)
<dholbach> because the build happened in that clean environment, not in the source dir - another good point about using pbuilder
<dholbach> let's run      sudo pbuilder build libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc         again and see if we get it working now
<dholbach> <levander> QUESTION: What all does fakeroot debian/rules clean do?
<dholbach> levander: it runs the   clean   target of the upstream source (so whatever the upstream maintainer thought should be cleaned), plus   dh_clean  and rules you set up yourself
<dholbach> <TLE> QUESTION UPDATE, if I edit the source with emacs, emacs creates a temp file, will the script disregard that when it makes the diff for the patch ?
<dholbach> TLE: I'm not sure which file you're referring to. I'm emacs illiterate - sombody else please answer. :-)
<dholbach> <daxelrod> QUESTION: How would we know from the error message mentioning 'gtk+-2.0' that the package we need is 'libgtk2.0-dev'? Is there a convention for figuring this out?
<nmsa> j #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> daxelrod: excellent question.
<engla> Emacs will create a sexy-tooltip.c~ backup file, and that will be included in the diff if you don't remove it
<engla> likewise will gedit by default
<dholbach> One answer to that is: experience with packaging. But there are also some indicators of where to look:
<jordi> TLE: if you mean backup files, yes, the "debhelper" system is smartyt enough to not ignore them, but get rid of them when you "clean" the package.
<dholbach> In the configure script it failed, because it tried to look up in /usr/lib/pkgconfig
<dholbach> so if the build fails for you in pbuilder, but works if you run on your system, you can easily check that directory and find out, where and why it went wrong
<dholbach> apt-cache search <...>   or   apt-file search <...>  can help also
<dholbach> The pbuilder build worked for me right now, but there are still some things that are weird:
<giskard> check configure.ac is another solution ;)
<dholbach> If you run    dpkg -c /var/cache/pbuilder/result/libsexy-doc_*.deb  (which displays the contents of the package), you will find it's nearly empty
<dholbach> it merely contains a couple of changelogs and copyright notices - what went wrong?
<dholbach> If we look into the debian/ directory, you will see that it contains a couple of *.install files
<dholbach> these files mention which directories and files are supposed to be installed into which package
<dholbach> debian/libsexy-doc.install is empty
<dholbach> if you run         debuild     (to build the package again) and     dh_install --list-missing   afterwards, it will present you with a list of files that were not installed into any package
<dholbach> once we add    debian/tmp/usr/share/gtk-doc/html   to    debian/libsexy-doc.install   it will contain something
<dholbach> now we can run     debuild binary   to not have to go through the whole procedure again, but only rebuild the packages
<dholbach> You will find that if you run       dpkg -c libsexy-doc*.deb     again, it will contain the documentation
<dholbach> I introduced some more bugs into the package, but given that we only have 19 minutes left, we should probably move on to some more questions.
<dholbach> <proppy> QUESTION: debian/libsexy-doc.install doesn't exist
<dholbach> hum, it existed for me - anyway, it was supposed to be an empty file.
<dholbach> <nmsa> Q: install pbuilder is still on, slow connection, will it install a new env. will get all packages from net? is doing validation on retrieved packages ... 'thnx
<dholbach> nmsa: it's not installing all packages, but only a very minimal set, needed to build packages - cjwatson: which packages are considered by debootstrap?
<dholbach> build-essential   will be contained in any case.
<dholbach> <Florob> QUESTION: Are *.install files cdbs specific?
<dholbach> Florob: no, they're not. They're scanned by dh_install.
<dholbach> <amarillion> QUESTION: which is the preferred format for documentation? Should you provide docs in a certain format if they aren't provided upstream?
<dholbach> manpages are a good example of documentation that sometimes does not exist.
<dholbach> It's always good to push it back to the upstream developers afterwards again.
<dholbach> I don't have a link on manpages handy, but I could find you one. I have a template I always use to get started on them.
<at2000> which packages are considered by debootstrap? the list is in the script /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/<version>
<dholbach> <rmjb> QUESTION: is the *.install file method the correct way for one source package to have multiple binary targets? like a lib, lib-dev, -doc and so on?
<dholbach> rmjb: some people use *.dirs files or run dh_install to debian/<binary package name> on their own, I personally prefer the .install file method
<dholbach> <xhaker> QUESTION: how about policy on packages. I read executables on /usr/bin must have manpages.
<dholbach> manpages are not a strict must have, but they come in very handy and users are gratefule for manpages
<dholbach> <somerville32> QUESTION: Is it possible to have pbuilder setup to work in multiple releases concurrently?
<dholbach> somerville32: there's a page on the MOTU wiki about that - if nobody finds it out in the next minutes, I can try after the talk
<dholbach> <xhaker> QUESTION: can i build for any version deboostrap supports?
<sol> Should all packages install to /usr? What's the use of /usr/local?
<sol> Should all packages install to /usr? What's the use of /usr/local?
<dholbach> xhaker: you can either set up a chroot for yourself (I think that's what most developers do), because that way you can test the resulting binary packages yourself, or you can have multiple differently configured pbuilders
<gnomefreak> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto?highlight=%28pbuilder%29
<dholbach> sol: /usr/local is for software you install yourself (like if you use ./configure && make && sudo make install)
<dholbach> <xhaker> QUESTION: pbuilder extracts the minimal system and then downloads additional dependencies.. does it cache them? for how long? where?
<dholbach> xhaker: yes, it does in /var/cache/pbuilder/aptcache/
<xhaker> ;)
<dholbach> I think it stores the packages until they're superseded by a newer version
<dholbach> are there any other questions?
<gnomefreak> dholbach: i grabbed the page for somerville32
<dholbach> If you run into any other packaging related trouble and don't know where to look in the documentation, your first check could be similar packages, then ask the people on #ubuntu-motu or on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com
<rmjb> thanks for a great session dholbach
<proppy> dholbach: 18:50 <proppy> <proppy> QUESTION(bis): can i chroot inside a pbuilder
<proppy>                environment to debug a packaging failure ?
<jonh_wendell> do we have to do a clean before every debuild? even if we change just 1 char in some file?
<engla> thanks, I learnt a lot (even though I built debs before)
<dholbach> proppy: yes, you can       sudo pbuilder login    can help with that
<proppy> dholbach: thx
<cjwatson> debuild cleans for you unless you use the -nc option
<guebay> dholbach: thumbs up :)
* proppy hugs dholbach
<jono> ok five min  break
<jono> till the next session
<Jucato> yay!
* Jucato takes a quick break
<dholbach> jonh_wendell: no you don't - you can run   debuild binary   to benefit from a previous build and just restart from wherever the build failed
<dholbach> thanks everybody
<amnesia> dholbach: thanks for the session, good job!
<dholbach> see you in #ubuntu-motu or on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com
<Florob> jono: great, now it really feels like school ;)
<dholbach> thanks a lot
<sol> thanks :-)
<fernando> dholbach: thanks
<amarillion> Thanks dholbach. That is certainly a lot of information to absorb
<nmsa> dholbach: thank you
<ifmy> dholbach: thanks
<scott> no thank you dholbach
<xhaker> see you in motu
<DraxNS> nice class dholbach
<somerville32> Thanks :)
<amarillion> Florob, not unless you get homework
<thekorn> thanks dholbach
<jono> :P
<alfmatos> dholbach, nice, thanks a bunch.
<somerville32> The PBuilderHowto page is kind of confusing.
* somerville32 is scarred of messing it up, haha
<dholbach> sorry, I forgot:          https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation      <========0
<berndl> a question which has partly to do with packaging: are there plans on creating a community driven repository (with really up to date packages) like arch-linux has?
<engla> it would be nice with not only a log, but a cleaned-up summary on the wiki pages (with links). But you know, we could all help out with that if we get to start with the log
<engla> that way this week could be saved in a box for all
<jono> engla, I am going to encourage people to summarise the sessions too
<jono> would be useful
<LaserJock> berndl: that would be the Universe and Multiverse repository
<siretart> berndl: sort of. I have plans to make REVU, a reviewing platform doing something similar
<engla> jono: I'm thinking we could link the schedule items to subpages
<jono> right
<engla> I'll help
<jono> :)
<nalioth> engla: jono if you like, you can use w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts
<jono> the sessions so far have been awesome
<jono> nalioth, :)
<berndl> laserjock: yeah, sort of :) but i think it is much easier to get into packaging for everyone in arch than in ubuntu. but perhaps this is the reason we're here to make things easier... :)
<elvstone> phew.
* elvstone just caught up with logs.
<elvstone> ..and sneaks away for some nicotine.
<berndl> siretart: do you have any specs online for revu?
<jono> ok, we all set?
<Smiffeh> Wonder if Ask Mark tomorrow will end up being productive, or just an excuse for people to quiz him on his openSuSE post.
<nalioth> probably be a +mz kind of day
<jono> I am going to run through some stuff for a bit and then I want to open it up to Q+A for much of the session
<jono> hi everyone, my name is Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager at Canonical
<jono> a lot of people get pretty confused about what exactly my job is here to do
<siretart> berndl: well, there is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/products/revu/+spec/revu. But apart from that, I'm not aware of other specs. Feel free to submit some though.
<jono> my main role is to help keep the wheels in the community rolling, help optimise how the community works, develop better ways of working, and be a point of contact for the community
<gummibaerchen> what utc time is now? here it's 6o'clock
<berndl> siretart: thanks a lot. i'll read through that...
<juliux> gummibaerchen, date -u
<jono> although I am employed by Canonical, I am ultimately judged by the community itself
<jono> as an example, when I started, even though I went through four interviews over a month, I still needed to apply for ubuntu membership
<jono> working for canonical does secure me shortcuts or anything like that, the community is the judge
<jono> this is quite deliberate, the community is central to ubuntu and central to canonical, and we have built an incredible community together
<jono> the fact we have 332 people in here is testement to what our community is capable of doing
<jono> every community needs rules and governance that determines how it works
<jono> the ubuntu community is no different
<jono> <daxelrod> QUESTION: (Feel free to let questions queue up until you're ready): What do you mean by "community"? Anyone who uses Ubuntu, or just those who develop it?
<jono> I am determining community as everyone in the ubuntu ecosystem - developers, users and anyone else
<jono> so, we have some community structures, and right in the middle is the Code of Conduct
<jono> this document species basic standards of practice that most decent people have innately, but it sets a standard for us
<jono> although it is just words on a wiki page, the CoC has become a powerful document and a cornerstone of our community and one that is not used to judge people, but to set levels of how we work together
<jono> in addition to that we have the Community Council
<jono> the Community Council (CC) is a board of nominated contributors who decde on how the community is governed
<jono> they do NOT have to be canonical people
<jono> in fact, mako, who is on the board is not a canonical employee
<jono> the CC make decisions on aspects of governance in the community
<jono> as an example, recently there has been discussion of a Leadership Code of Conduct which outlines core standards of leadership
<jono> that document would be accepted or denied by the CC
<jono> we have also talked about sub-councils known as team councilc
<jono> councils
<jono> so, as an example, the forums would have their own council - they are a large sub-community inside ubuntu, and could do with a council to decide on issues in their domain
* mako nods
<jono> another thing the CC decide on is ubuntu membership
<jono> to be an acknowledged member of the ubuntu project, we ask that contributors go before the CC to apply for membership
<jono> the CC then decide if that person is suitable to known as a member
<jono> more on this in the becoming an ubuntu member session later in the week
<jono> now, our community is hugely diverse
<jono> we have lots of different areas in which people can get involved such as art, documentation, development, packaging etc, and we actively encourage participation in these areas
<jono> we are keen that the ubuntu community does not suffer the same misinterpreation that other communities suffer - that only technical people can be a part of it
<jono> each of our community efforts is broken into different teams, and each team is generally expected to have a mailing list, IRC channel, wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com and maybe a forum
<mattl> jono: what area could someone who is new to free software and new to GNU/Linux especially get involved with?
<jono> I think people need to figure out what their skills are and decide how they can apply them
<jono> so, if someone is a good artist, the art team would be a good choice, good communicators could join the doc or marketing teams
<jono> <elvstone> QUESTION: What does beeing a member of the Ubuntu Project entail? What would my responsabilities be towards the Project? What makes this different from just beeing a user and contributor to the Ubuntu Project?
<mattl> is there a task list, as such? a list of opportunities?
<mako> mattl: there are more than one
<mako> Margaret wants to hack on the kernel that ships with Ubuntu, and she has already made a few patches, but she has some questions about the format. She needs to get in touch with the kernel maintainers, and she goes to the Participate page to find the relevant contact info, there is none, and she ends up sending the unfinished patches to the ubuntu-devel list instead.
<jono> mattl, more on that in a bit ;)
<mako> sorry
<mako> paste error
<mako> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<mako> that is the canonical(!) list
<mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<jono> elvstone, being an ubuntu means that you have performed a sustained and substantial contribution to the project
<mako> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu have other ideas
<elvstone> jono: ack.
<jono> elvstone, we use ubuntu membership as a method of identifying which people are good strong contributors in the project
<mako> mattl: this is the plan to merge these together: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImprovingParticipatePage
<jono> it is a useful yardstick for seperating out solid performers from people who just get a kick out of shouting on mailing lists
<mako> which, funnily enough might be a good way to contribute :)
<elvstone> jono: i see :)
<jono> <Yawner> QUESTION: How has being employed by Canonical changed your ability to contribute to the Project?
<jono> Yawner, not a huge amount - I am not going to deny that being employed by canonical means some people have more faith in you, because you have been through a pretty solid vetting process - but being employed does not buy any more rights with the community
<Yawner> aha ok, thanks
<jono> I fundamentally needed to prove my worth to the community, but the community has been very open to my employment
<ivoks> hi akk
<ivoks> err all
<mattl> jono: the community loves you.
<jono> <leetcharmer> QUESTION: Are there plans to make community involvement even easier?  Perhaps a GUI-based application that would gather information from launchpad that would integrate and help people get started with ease?
<jono> mattl, :P
<jono> leetcharmer, I have *lots* of plans
<mattl> i was being sincere!
<jono> about this very issue
<jono> mattl, :)
<leetcharmer> huzzah \0/
<leetcharmer> tell me :D
<jono> one of the problems with free software communities is that the process of involvement follows this approx path:
<jono> 1. someone decides they like free software and they want to help
<jono> 2. the person looks at a list of possible teams and ways of contributing and tries to match their skills with a team
<jono> 3. they join the tea,m
<jono> now, at point (3) things can get shaky
<mattl> jono: i often have pockets of random spare time where i'm sitting with a laptop waiting for a train or a plane or something. be nice if i could use that time to do a microtask that would be useful to the community.
<jono> in most scenarios joining a team involves being thrown in a deep end - a contribution to the team requires a fairly large investment of time and energy
<jono> I am interested in lessening this investment and getting a win for the contributor sooner rather than later
<jono> one plan is to have the concept of "bite size tasks" - a number of tasks for a team that are simple, trivial things to do, but offer a great first step into that team
<leetcharmer> That sounds exciting! How can this be made possible? How do you lessen the required amount of time?
<leetcharmer> oh! lawl, roite!
<jono> I discussed this at the UDS and Allhands, and I am talking with some of the teams to do this in a consistant way, using tags in launchpad
<dsas> jono: Akin to the gnome-love bugs gnome use?
<jono> the key thing is that bitesize tasks have plenty of feedback
<jono> dsas, similar sort of thing
<Arby> any estimate when this will happen?
<jono> we trialled this technique with the Jokosher community and it was very successfull
<jono> Arby, I am hoping we can get something sorted over the next few months
<leetcharmer> excellent!
<jono> I am also looking into other areas such as standarding documentation and providing better optimised ways of working
<finalbeta> I like the tasks idea, would be great for independent coders such as myself to help out when the have some time.
<leetcharmer> So, step one is to figure a way to get bite-sized tasks ... what about the actual user experience though?  Making it user friendly enough that novices to even computers could start, right away?
<jono> I trialled some of my ideas with the LoCo team, and it seemed to work pretty well - developing consistancy, documentation, improving team relations etc
<jono> leetcharmer, the actual user experience is where good feedback from the team needs to come in
<jono> it is difficult to write rules to dictate how communities work - it is instead about best practice and learning from our peers
<mattl> jono: can you give an example of a task?
<jono> mattl, as an example, it may be a packaging bug
<dsas> jono: There was an effort within the desktop team to manage that, with the more experienced members tagging things with  the 'ubuntulove' and others picking up on the tasks.
<jono> dsas, exactly, we need a consistant project way of doing this
<jono> so yeah, expect more on this soon =P
<leetcharmer> Example: let's say I have no development computer skills what-so-ever, except for using them and good writing skills -- I'd like to write documentation ... can I click a program, pick a category I'd like to help out -> documentation, pop in some tags and get started and upload?
<leetcharmer> That would be nice :D
<jono> other projects include mentoring (trialled with a LoCo pilot), documenting best practice, events and more
<jono> leetcharmer, thats a good idea, but further down the line
<jono> I don;t think the issue here is an interface issue, it is a process issue
<jono> <emonkey-p> QUESTION: jono: you're Community Manager only for Ubuntu or general for all *buntu Distros too? (like kubuntu)
<mattl> task based documentation is pretty useful. any way a user could make documentation by simply using the program? ie. it records the menu clicks to a file and lets them write some text around what they just did?
<jono> emonkey-p, althougn my job title is Ubuntu Community Manager, I am here to help all aspects of the community where I can, and I have worked with Kubuntu, Launchpad, Ubuntu, Edubuntu and various others
<jono> <nmsa> Q: jono: are you working with loco teams? does your are include them? how? 'thnx
<jono> nmsa, when I joined, I identified loco teams as a key part of the community
<jono> I have spent quite a lot of time working with locos
<pepsiman> leetcharmer: ubuntu docs are going to be maintained in the wiki
<jono> y'know, its interesting, when I started there were lots of locos, but noone talked to each other
<jono> each team was its own little independent unit
<jono> I wanted to first get people talking to each other - we are a community and our biggest strength is how we communicate and learn from each other
<jono> so I revived loco-contacts and encouraged people to talk to each other
<leetcharmer> pepsiman, then I would like to request a program that reads from the wiki and would let you write from an interface, to streamline things easier rather than through web
<jono> I also encouraged teams to share their experience, stories and other tips to figure out how to best run the teams
<LaserJock> pepsiman: that's not entirely correct, but there is a lot of documentation on the wiki
<jono> another issue was the sparse and badly organised documentation, so I tidied up the wiki, added a consistant menu bar, created a knowledge base, encouraged teams to contribute docs and formed regular meetings
<jono> finally, I worked to help improve the process of how loco teams are approved
<jono> in the ubuntu project there are two types of team - new and approved - approved teams are the equivilent of ubuntu members, but for teams - teams that we know work well
<jono> and recently I have been working on some ideas to unify loco resources in launchpad
<jono> one of the problems we have with teams right now is that teams are spending too much time messing around with setting up websites, planets and user maps, and not spending their time teambuilding
<jono> I want to reduce this resource based time, make things easier to set up, and get teams to concentrate on *making great teams*
<jono> y'know, we have loco teams in nearly every single country in the world
<Circus-Killer> thats one thing our loco team is strugglinh with
<jono> and on the loco mailing lists we have *over* 10,000 subscribers
<jono> we have an incredible backbone here, and I am keen to see it get better
<tonyyarusso> jono: Does that mean a unified, available framework for things like websites, planets, and maps that teams can just plug stuff into a template for?
<jono> Circus-Killer, ping me later and we can discuss it
<mattl> jono: how useful is a loco team for a large country? wouldn't a city based or region based loco be better?
<jono> tonyyarusso, the idea is that a planet, website, user map etc should just be able to be "flipped on" - with a consistant look and feel - I would like to see people contentrate on "content" and not infrastructure
<jono> mattl, this is an issue
<jono> for some countries we divide it
<jono> for the USA, loco teams are at a state level
<mattl> at what point does a Loco be more like a GLUG?
<jono> but for some places it is a country level
<SimonAnibal> jono, what do you mean by "team building"?
<tonyyarusso> jono: But what is being done to make that the case?  Do we have something in place for new locos to click the "turn on" button?
<jono> mattl, they have different purposes in many ways - lugs are often places where people (a) meet up (b) get support and (c) talk about a range of issues - locos are primarily advocacy and translations vehicles for the ubuntu community
<mattl> do you see a loco as a group of people who go to LUGs and spread the ubuntu love?
<jono> SimonAnibal, the real value in a team is how people work together, organise themselves and get stuff done - I want to see more of that and less debate about whether to use drupal or plone :P
<mattl> heh.
<jono> tonyyarusso, there was a spec at the UDS about this, and some additions to launchpad are being discussed
<mattl> phpnuke, surely?
<jono> mattl, can you post questions in -caht
<jono> -chat
<jono> <juliux> QUESTION: is there a plan to have something like the gnome foundation that leads the project?
<jono> juliux, we do have the ubuntu foundation, but is primarily a fund which would kick in if canonical or mark was to go away
<jono> right now there seems little need for foundation in my own view
<juliux> jono, i mean from the community side
<jono> I think we want to get away from making more and more governance infrastructure and spend more time *doing stuff*
<jono> juliux, the community council is the governance infrastructure there
<jono> <Ng> QUESTION: How do we grow a rocking beard like yours?
<jono> Ng, its tough, but it takes down, shampoo and condition every day
<jono> <nmsa> Q: jono: again, sorry, are you working with loco teams? does your area include them? how? 'thnx
<Admiral_Chicago> jono: but don't you see a practical application for approved teams to have planets? it seems having a unified point of communication (that maybe isn't IRC) is a useful thing.
<jono> I do indeed, I help the UK team
<jono> Admiral_Chicago, exactly - I am keen to get more perks for approved teams
<Admiral_Chicago> jono: good to hear, can you talk briefly on mailing lists in general and their use?
<jono> Admiral_Chicago, we can rely on those teams, and there has been discussion about sending out event kits to them, using them for more formal events, providing these teams with additional help and we also send edgy cds to approved teams
<jono> Admiral_Chicago, what do you mean about lists?
<jono> <gummibaerchen> Q: Who decide who leads the LoCo Teams?
<jono> gummibaerchen,  it varies - not all teams need leaders
<Admiral_Chicago> jono: for example, mailing list being used for support requests, pro/cons of having a mailing list
<jono> usually the person who founds the team often leads it, some teams have elections and some have informal methods of voting people in
<gummibaerchen> jono: But I mean the leader in Launchpad for example.
<jono> Admiral_Chicago, mailing lists are essential for all teams, but I always recommend that with a new team to stick with a single list
<gummibaerchen> Who gave them their rights?
<Admiral_Chicago> gummibaerchen: for example, Chicago LoCo does not have a leader, we decided we don't need one. we have a main contact (nixternal) but he isn't an established leader
<jono> gummibaerchen, eh?
<jono> Admiral_Chicago, as an example, when people set up discussion forums, a lot of people add 10 sub-forums
<LaserJock> gummibaerchen: when somebody creates a team in Launchpad they are the owner
<jono> and there is a temptation for people to split out across lots of lists
<popey> wik/win 44
<Smiffeh> jono: as community manager what sort of relationship do you have with the marketing team?
<popey> eek
<popey> sorry
<jono> I always recommend that communication is kept to single list or forum - it helps everyone see each other
<jono> Smiffeh, I am beginning to work with the marketing team and had a discussion with corey last night about it
<jono> I am also developing processes to improve how the canonical marketing team and the community marketing team works together
<Smiffeh> and what conclusions are you reaching about the direction they should take?
<Admiral_Chicago> ah i see, speaking as a spam killer, i know the mailing lists get spam often, I usually go in once a day and approve / deny the appropriate emails, i see this as a con to having mailing list
<Admiral_Chicago> they have a certain level of maintainanc
<jono> Smiffeh, I have views on the marketing team - I think we need to use the marketing team as a central to push stuff out of the community  - right now the marketing team does to much inter-ubuntu-community marketing - I would like to see other teams (such as loco teams) feed the marketing team with content and then the expertise of the marketing team can push and promote that information
<jono> <somerville32> QUESTION: What role do you play in the communities of the Ubuntu sister projects like Xubuntu or Kubuntu? Do you have any plans/goals for these projects?
<jono> somerville32, I covered this a bit earlier, I am here to help with their community building in the same way I do for ubuntu - my door is always open to people who need help
<somerville32> :)
<jono> <fafek2> QUESTION: Don't you think Ubuntu community is somewhat careless? I mean posting bug reports and feature request in many other places like forums instead of Launchpad; grumbling about some lack in Ubuntu on personal blogs, instead of writing clear specification and so on...
<jono> fafek2, sure, there is lots of misguided work, but that is not solvable with a quick fix - it relies on good solid examples being set by key community figures, and good processes
<jono> I think we can improve things in many areas by developing these processes
<jono> let me be 100% clear here with my intentions
<jono> I want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action
<jono> we have all the right ingredients, we have all the potential, we just need to fix some things to improve our community
<jono> this is not about me telling people what to do, but about me coming up with ideas and suggestions that do not disrupt workflow but make things better
<fafek2> Maybe Ubuntu Forums moderators could be more determined?
<jono> right now, I am going after low-hanging fruit - easy wins that will reap a great return on community productivity
<jono> fafek2, thats a seperate issue
<jono> <somerville32> QUESTION: Whats the best way to get in contact with you?
<jono> well, I live on IRC during the days (around 8.30am - 6pm UTC) and I can also be gotten in touch at jono AT ubuntu DOT com
<jono> I also blog a lot at jonobacon.org
<Smiffeh> jono: do you feel marketing should be working to attract a non-technical audience to Ubuntu to try and begin to dispel the "linux is not suitable for the desktop" myth
<l> awesome!!
<jono> Smiffeh, yes indeed
<tsmithe> Smiffeh, arent they already?
<bhale> questions in -chat guys
<jono> Smiffeh, marketing is a multi-faceted approach - we need to approach different demographics with a consistant message - education, non-techical users, developers, charities - they are all ripe pickings :)
<jono> <LoudMouthMan> QUESTION: What mechanisms/oversight do you feel may be needed to avoid people sitting around deciding to be "the peoples front of judea" or " the judean peoples front ", navel gazing in other words.
<jono> LoudMouthMan, whingers will always whinge
<jono> personally, I am not interested in talking to whingers
<Smiffeh> From what i have seen so far they seem to be promoting the distro's activities in channels that appeal more to the technical usership.
<jono> I am not interested in providing people with blog fodder
<bhale> Smiffeh: if you think other channels need to be targetted you could be the newest member of the marketing team
<jono> I am interesting in making our community have a standard of "can do" - I personally can't stand people who do nothing but complain, bemoan and otherwise feedback over things they can actually change
<jono> this entire free software landscape is mouldable, changable and has the ability to be bettered in every way
<jono> this is why I always try to encourage people to do stuff, then discuss
<jono> too many contributors start out by setting up a mailing list, svn server, website and such and then spend six months discussing thing they will ultimately never do
<jono> I always say "do it, and then discuss it"
<LaserJock> \o/
<jono> we need to get into a habit of making stuff happen
<jono> gummibaerchen> QUESTION: Is it possible that gives up it's Debian Base?
<jono> gummibaerchen,  what does?
<MacSlow> jono, pretty good stance there!
<jono> ok lots of questions, not enough time
<jono> gonna pick and choose what has not been covered
<MacSlow> jono, I fully agree with this attitude
<jono> <levander> QUESTION: Why not merge the Loco's and LUG's so that a Loco is basically a "department" inside the local LUG?  Just seems like more cross-traffic between the two that way.
<jono> I don't think it works that way - the two are incompatible at level - they are different types of groups that should intead work together to achieve common goals
<jono> <tonyyarusso> QUESTION: One issue the marketing team has atm is that Canonical wants to be the only one writing press releases, but isn't doing any for the non-tech community.  Does your interfacing w/Canonical and that team include dealing with things like that?
<jono> tonyyarusso, indeed - as part of my Canonical/Community work I am trying to improve relations so we can work together on things like this - I am booking meetings with the business development team at canonical to improve on these issues
<jono> <mattl> QUESTION:  If you want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action (and it's something I would love to see happen!) - how do we begin to expel proprietary software from Ubuntu so it can live up to that?
<tonyyarusso> jono: awesome.  Looking forward to results of those.
<jono> mattl, speaking personally, I am not interested in taking away choice from the user - I want to help to provide a solid free software Operating System, but I am also open to the fact that people may choose to run proprietary software on it - that it their choice - personally I don't feel freedom includes the right to remove choice - but I do believe we need to make Ubuntu a solid free software base in which people can use it fo
<jono> r what they like - this is a big issue, and one I have a blog post lined up for next week
<_ubu> jono you can't expell propriety software
<sabdfl> can I chip in?
<jono> sabdfl, sure
<sabdfl> mattl: Ubuntu has never been free-software-only, top to bottom
<_ubu> unless you you come up withan alternative to flash, win32 codecs and the lot...
<sabdfl> we have since the beginning included some proprietary drivers, for example, for wifi
<sabdfl> it has, I think, always been possible to install Ubuntu without those pieces
<sabdfl> they are in a specific place in the distro, called "restricted", so they are easy to identify and purge
<sabdfl> and distros like gNewSense are basically ubuntu without those pieces
<leetcharmer> alternatively -- there is now also gnuSense which ... man, he's one step ahead of me.
<jono> right
<jono> well I think our time is up
<sabdfl> in addition, we have also made packages of proprietary software available, just not accessible by default
<mattl> we can't tell people to not install things... however, we can not distribute them.
<mattl> if people want Flash, Win32Codecs or Opera, they will get it.
<jono> thanks for the excellent questions, I wish I could have got through more
<somerville32> Thanks Jono! :)
<mattl> but I think Ubuntu could set the bar by saying they won't distribute them.
<juliux> thanks jono
<sabdfl> mattl: my point is that this has always been the case - at our very first face to face meeting we decided to allow firmware, and binary drivers, just not proprietary apps
<jono> I think I will open up the session on wednesday at 5pm UTC with Q+A so do come back then :)
<somerville32> Jono: If you ever need a hand, I'm always happy to help with stuff! :)
<leetcharmer> it's cool .. thanks jono bacon :D I look forward to Jokosher!
<jono> oops 6pm rather
<emonkey-p> jono, thx for this talk, it was a pleasure and I'm sure we'll talk soon about several things :)
<Joe_CoT> even if you wanted a completely free Ubuntu, shipping it without proprietary software alienates people. it causes wifi cards not to work, video cards to be unsupported, etc. you can't install the binary wifi driver if you have no internet ;-/
<jono> thanks folks, take care!
* somerville32 waves.
<sabdfl> our goal is to get free software as widely used and tested and loved as possible
* leetcharmer hugs Jono
<sabdfl> and we do compromise in order to get it installed and fully using the hardware
<_ubu> I agree with Joe_cot
<sabdfl> gNewSense takes a strong line, try that if it's what you want
<sabdfl> Debian says no to binary drivers but yes to firmware, which IMO is the same thing
<mattl> sabdfl: i think that compromise is an unfortunate one, and i feel the message from Ubuntu is a confusing one.
<mattl> sabdfl: agreed that firmwares and drivers are the same.
<sabdfl> mattl: noted
<sabdfl> thanks jono
<jono> sabdfl, np, thanks for your comments too
<MacSlow> jono, tomorrow your session on "how to become a member" starts at 15:00 GMT ?!
<mattl> sabdfl: when you say If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and undisclosed balance sheet liabilities, then please do join us. - i think that's a great statement, but i don't think it's true. if there are binary blobs and binary drivers by default?
<somerville32> Can I ask one last quick question, Jono?
<leetcharmer> sabdfl, If I wanted to become an entrepreneur, resulting in helping out many people -- what type of work would I do?
<jono> somerville32, /msg me
<sabdfl> mattl: yes, its true that ubuntu is not without controversy, i was not suggesting ubuntu is perfect
<jordi> next in the classroom is Rosetta!
<jono> MacSlow, yep
<sabdfl> but i think our approach is clear, is well known, and does not create very dangerous situations for other developers, which is what i am objecting to in the novell-msft pact
<jono> jordi, woo!
<sabdfl> hey jordi!
<jordi> hmm, seems I can't change the topic
<jordi> too bad
<tonyyarusso> jordi: Tell me what you'd like in /msg and it's yours.
<jordi> The session is Translations with Rosetta :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<givre> sabdfl: i think that make an advance option in the installer to disable restricted repo https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022596.html , just like suggested collin watson should make everybody happy. Just my 2 cents
<dneary> jordi: I'm here for you :)
<jordi> Ok, so for those who don't know me, I'm Jordi Mallach, and I've been involved with the Rosetta team trying to be the link between the development team and the Ubuntu translators and rosetta users
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Translations w
<jordi> tonyyarusso: just "Rosetta" then :)
<tonyyarusso> hmm
<stalefries_away> or perhaps cut down on the info
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom | Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Open Week starts at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Rosetta
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<jordi> let's get moving
<jordi> The Rosetta Translation Portal
<jordi> Rosetta is one of the components that make up Launchpad,
<jordi> Canonical's service platform.
<jordi> Launchpad is made up of five major components: a bug tracker, a
<jordi> request tracker, a specification tracker, a "source code"
<jordi> supermirror and Rosetta, a web-based translation portal.
<jordi> Christian Reis will talk tomorrow about Launchpad in general, so
<jordi> let's focus on Rosetta.
<jordi> Rosetta's aim is to make translation of Free Software as easy and
<jordi> non-technical as it can get. The Rosetta team has been working on
<jordi> creating an interface which hides the specifics of the Gettext PO
<jordi> file format, which is the standard for translating Free Software,
<jordi> thus lowering the barrier so anyone with a reasonable knowledge
<jordi> of English can help out with the translations of their favourite
<jordi> project into their mother tongue.
<jordi> (please say if I'm too fast, I'm worried about lack of time)
<jordi> Rosetta is the main translation system of Ubuntu Linux, and is
<jordi> the source of all translations which appear in the Ubuntu
<jordi> releases, and in the frequently updated langpacks. Rosetta is
<jordi> also designed to help program authors getting their applications
<jordi> translated.
<jordi> A close look on the Gettext PO file format
<jordi> ==========================================
<jordi> Most of the software in your desktops use a standard translation
<jordi> interface called GNU gettext, which is in charge of showing the
<jordi> applications in the language the user has chosen. Application
<jordi> programmers need to take care of marking all the user-visible
<jordi> messages (or strings, as the initiated tend to call them) with a
<jordi> special marker which can be extracted to plain text ".po" files.
<jordi> We translators use these files to translate the applications.
<jordi> Let's look at how a PO file looks. I've put some examples in
<jordi> http://pusa.informat.uv.es/~jordi/ubuntu-school/
<jordi> Have a look at the ubuntu-school.pot file. A POT file is a "PO
<jordi> Template", that is, an empty PO file ready to be translated.
<jordi> Looking at the contents of the file, you can see the format is
<jordi> pretty straight forward: each original string in English (a
<jordi> msgid) has its corresponding translation (msgstr). While simple,
<jordi> the po format is quite fragile. One missing quote, and your
<jordi> entire application build will fail with a syntax error. There are
<jordi> several very popular PO file editors which help the editing
<jordi> process: KBabel, PoEdit, GTranslator, Emacs PO-mode...
<jordi> Rosetta goes one step further in easing the translation of these
<jordi> PO files, using a clean, web-based interface which hides the
<jordi> format, presenting only sets of string/translation pairs that you
<jordi> can fill up. Once the work is done, it's stored in its database
<jordi> where the information can be exported or shared among other
<jordi> projects.
<jordi> Using Rosetta's Web Interface
<jordi> Rosetta is, as hinted before, divided in two main branches: one
<jordi> serves to translate the applications of the people who request
<jordi> it. For example, the Gobby collaborative editor is being
<jordi> translated by Rosetta contributors, after its authors requested
<jordi> us to set it up for them in Rosetta. On the other hand, Rosetta
<jordi> is the platform from where Ubuntu gets all its translations.
<jordi> We'll focus on Ubuntu a bit more now.
<jordi> Ubuntu translations revolve around the Ubuntu translation teams,
<jordi> which coordinate and produce the translations which get shipped
<jordi> with every new version.
<jordi>    https://launchpad.net/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators
<jordi> Here you'll see a list of teams which belong to the Ubuntu
<jordi> translation teams. While Rosetta is open enough to let everyone
<jordi> with a Launchpad account contribute, there is need for some
<jordi> access control, to protect quality, avoid vandalism, etc. Being
<jordi> part of one of the translation teams grants you "write" access to
<jordi> every translation for that language in Ubuntu. Still, if you're
<jordi> not a member of your language's team, you can still go ahead and
<jordi> translate. Your contributions will be also stored in Rosetta's
<jordi> database as "suggestions", but won't appear in Ubuntu's language
<jordi> packs until a member of the team reviews and validates them.
<jordi> Rosetta offers a long list of applications that can be
<jordi> translated. Taking the French team as an example,
<jordi> 
<jordi>    https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/fr
<jordi> we can have a look at how their translation status is for the
<jordi> Ubuntu Edgy release. I like showing the French team because they
<jordi> are really an amazing example of completeness.
<jordi> woops
<jordi> this had to happen today, I new it
<jordi> my router just rebooted :O)
<ivoks> hehe
<jono> :P
<jordi> Rosetta presents us a list of applications which are ready to be
<jordi> translated to French, and their current translation status. As
<jordi> you see, the French have done their homework and there's barely
<jordi> no red bars, meaning "untranslated". See the bottom of the
<jordi> page for the meaning of the bar colours.
<jordi> The list is ordered from most important to less important
<jordi> Let's see how we'd translate an application. Close to the top of
<jordi> the list is "launchpad-integration". We'll pick this one as it's
<jordi> easy and short.
<jordi>    https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/launchpad-integration/+pots/launchpad-integration/fr/+translate
<jordi> okay, I just started to look at the questions in the chat channel
<jordi> I'll try to paste them here now, sorry about that ;)
<waod> LOL
<jordi> If instead of French you want to have a look at your own
<jordi> language's translation, simply replace "/fr" in the URL with the
<jordi> corresponding ISO 639 code. You can find the code for your
<jordi> language here:
<jordi> http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
<waod> 14:38 < mogaal> Soy bruto
<waod> 14:38 < mogaal> Comprende :(
<jordi> In our case, the first string is "The Launchpad helper
<jordi> application failed", which is already translated to French as
<jordi> "L'assistant Launchpad a chou". Below the accepted translation
<jordi> there is a list of alternative translations suggested by other
<jordi> people. You can quickly navigate through the translation fields
<jordi> using the tab key. Once you have completed all the strings in a
<jordi> page, you want to save your work: hit "Save & Continue" at the
<jordi> bottom, and if there are more strings to do, Rosetta will then
<jordi> show them to you.
<jordi> There are other bits that can help the translators while they
<jordi> work on a translation: you might want to see what the translators
<jordi> to a language similar to yours used in a string that is hard to
<jordi> translate, for inspiration. You can get such information using
<jordi> the "Make suggestions from" widget at the top of the string list.
<jordi> Also, you'll be more interested in seeing the strings that need
<jordi> work instead of those which are translated already. You can
<jordi> filter the kind of messages you want to see using the "Show"
<jordi> widget, where you can select from "all", "unstranslated",
<jordi> "translated" and "needs review".
<jordi> 20:20 < neophile> QUESTION: Is it possible to search for a string in the translation? That's major drawback when trying to correct translations. Is a search feature planned for rosseta in the near future?
<jordi> It's currently not possible to search for a string easily
<jordi> it is one of the most requested (and no doubtely most useful) features, and we do plan to add it
<jordi> the implementation isn't trivial though, as the database is huge and there are some perdformance issues to solve
<jordi> But yes, the team will focus on providing it as soon as possible
<jordi> Using Rosetta's import/export interface
<jordi> While the web interface has allowed many Ubuntu users help out
<jordi> with the translations to their language, there's certainly
<jordi> die-hard, old-time translators who will prefer using their own
<jordi> tools (obscure emacs modules and weird command line tools!) to
<jordi> work on their translations. Or there might be people who cannot
<jordi> afford to be online during the whole translating session.
<jordi> To help them, Rosetta has an import/export mechanism, which
<jordi> allows you to easily upload translations you have worked on
<jordi> offline, using your own ways, but you still want to see
<jordi> integrated in Rosetta, and download your finalised files so you
<jordi> can do whatever you want with them: back them up, send them to
<jordi> your team's mailing list, send them to the upstream author so
<jordi> they get included in the next release...
<jordi> Importing and exporting is easy: to download your work, use the "Download" and "Upload file" links in the boxes at the left side
<jordi> When requesting a download, Launchpad will prepare the file for you and will email you the location of the desired export.
<jordi> Importing is similar. Just fill in the field with the location path to your file, and rosetta will integrate it in the database
<jordi> I translated all night long. What now?
<jordi> ======================================
<jordi> Okay, so you've worked on the files you were interested in, and
<jordi> Rosetta now has all the info. What happens now?
<jordi> Ubuntu will, on a monthly basis, extract all the translations
<jordi> from the database and put them in the "language packs" for each
<jordi> supported language in the distro, which will automatically hit
<jordi> your Ubuntu mirror the 1st Monday of the month. This way, Rosetta
<jordi> allows people to keep improving the support for their language
<jordi> even after a Ubuntu release has shipped. For example, more than 6
<jordi> months after the release of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, there's a group
<jordi> working on adding Dzonghka support to Ubuntu, when there was
<jordi> close to nothing included in dapper initially.
<jordi> I see there's many interesting questions going on, so I propose we go on with Q+A, trying to focus on the classics: Rosetta and upstream relationship, etc.
<jordi> 20:24 < bugman> QUESTION: In https://translations.launchpad.net/people/bugman/+translations for example, is possible to implements the view of all string translated for a package and not only the last?
<jordi> bugman: it's possible, yes. These are wishlist features, though, and will get a lower priority than say "search a string"
<jordi> but the info is in the database, so it's prefectly possible to show the info
<jordi> it's important that bugs are filed against rosetta requesting these things
<bugman> jordi: ok :-)
<jordi> 20:26 < dneary> QUESTION: What's the recommended workflow for updating .po files outside Launchpad for the moment?
<jordi> dneary: can you be more specific?
<jordi> there's several scenarios: gnome-panel or launchpad-integration, for example
<ivoks> jordi: he asks if he could see all his translations in one package
<ivoks> just his own
<ivoks> or someone elses
<jordi> ivoks: bugman?
<ivoks> yes
<jordi> oh, I see.
<dneary>  jordi: It's related to bug #68014
<jordi> Well, tha can be done too
<ivoks> urgh.. sorry lag :)
<bugman> :)
<jordi> (please give me full malone urls so I can open fast)
<dneary> jordi: It seems like uploading .po files doesn't automatically update translations at the moment (if I understand the problem)
<Gwaihir> jordi: https://launchpad.net/bugs/68014
<jordi> dneary: right, the import mechanism is restricted right now, while a nasty bug involving reverted translations is tracked down
<dneary> Some translations were lost, so on the 1st of November, the upload form was disabled
<jordi> for the time being, mailing rosetta@launchpad.net with import requests is the recommended way
<dneary> So - what's the reccommended workflow for people working on .po files outside teh tree while that bug is being fixed?
<dneary> jordi: OK - thanks :)
<jordi> although I hope we'll go back to normal operation rsn -- aiui the bug fixing is making progress
<dneary> I was typing rather than reading
<dneary> cool
<jordi> 20:27 < dand> QUESTION: any packages in Rosetta that sync automatically with upstream? if yes, are they marked somehow in Launchpad and how often do they sync?
<jordi> good one: this doesn't happen right now, but is a desired feature
<jordi> this would allow minimise the "conflicts" between rosetta and upstream preojects (KDE, GNOME...) translations
<jordi> so if some translator has rights to translate both on Ubuntu and GNOME CVS, a translation inserted in Rosetta could be exported to GNOME
<jordi> we want this, but it'll won't be here before some time
<dand> alright, thanks :)
<jordi> 20:27 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is it possible to have a --use-fuzzy implementation for exporting mo files?
<jordi> Gwaihir: as far as I know, we don't do this now because Rosetta generates fuzzies using its own knowledge. I guess it'd be easy to add an option to generate files with fuzzies, yes. Is there a bug filed?
<jordi> 20:29 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is there any difference between "fuzzy string" in po and "Need review" in Rosetta?
<jordi> I've gone over this as I wanted to keep the text dump simple
<jordi> but yeah, needs review can map to fuzzy
<jordi> some teams do use it as in the strict "needs review" sense though
<jordi> ie, theey translate it, but if they are not sure, they use the mark so others can easily find the unsure strungs
<jordi> strings even
<ivoks> right, that's common practice
<jordi> 20:29 < somerville32> QUESTION: How does a member of a translation team approve suggested translations?
<jordi> The current implementation is built on very complex copy and paste technology :)
<ivoks> (could we get a checkbox instead?) :)
<jordi> we do have plans to have the checkbox :)
<pepsiman> jordi: there's a greasemonkey script which helps
<jordi> I'm a bit on time pressure I guess, otherwise I'd dig the relevant spec urls
<danilos> Gwaihir: another thing to note: currently, both fuzzy and string needing review is implemented using the same mechanism in rosetta; there is, however, a plan to separate these out and put them to their right meanings (i.e. fuzzy == machine-selected "similar" string; needs review == human selected "unsure" string)
<bugman> ivoks: i written a spec on this but it was rejected
<jordi> danilos, maybe you can find some of the relevant ones so people can read over them
<jordi> danilos is one of the main rosetta coders. Woo! :)
<jordi> 20:31 < somerville32> QUESTION: If I suggest a translation and then join the translation team later, are all my suggested translations automatically approved?
<jordi> somerville32: no, as far as I know. That could be dangerous on some cases, actually
<jordi> but it might be a good idea to do it if the string was unstranslated
<somerville32> So I have to go and redo all my work? haha
<jordi> I can't stress enough that having bug reports for all the requests is really helpful
<jordi> 20:32 < dand> QUESTION: any plans so far on opening Rosetta for contributions?
<jordi> dand: "opening", I assume you mean opening the source code
<dand> yeah
<danilos> on dneary's QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
<Gwaihir> jordi: for the --use-fuzzy question I've a bug was opened: https://launchpad.net/bugs/70974
<danilos> dneary: yes, Rosetta keeps a history of all translation contributions
<jordi> There's sabdfl's statement that Launchpad will be freed when the project is ready to do so. We can't give dates or estimations on when that might happen.
<jordi> There are people helping out with Launchpad on a NDA basis, though.
<jordi> Gwaihir: thanks
<dand> jordi: k, thanks
<jordi> 20:36 < bugman> QUESTION: It's possibile to hava a Wiki page (or other similar) for see LangPack scheduling?
<Gwaihir> jordi: you are welcome!
<jordi> bugman: the general rule is "1st Monday of the month". We chose this because it's easy to remember. I'm sure this is written up somewhere though, can't find a pointer irght now
<bugman> jordi: ok thanks
<danilos> dneary: but no, we don't have the level of details you wonder about (when string has moved from suggestion to approved, etc.)
<jordi> there's a Plan to write docs pointing these things clearly
<jordi> 20:36 < dneary> QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
<jordi> a feature showing how a string has changed over time has just been rolled onto production, and Rosetta is now gathering this info
<jordi> This will be good to help team leaders track bad translators
<jordi> 20:40 < neophile> QUESTION: Where someone should translate a package, in head brunch or in the edgy brunch?
<dneary> jordi: danilos already answered that - thanks to you both
<jordi> neversfelde_: this very much depends on the specific packages
<jordi> we have a feature on our queue, which will allow someone translating gnome-panel in edgy "push" that same translation to dapper, feisty, or GNOME CVS HEAD if applicable
<jordi> so you just have to translate once
<ivoks> that would be awsome
<jordi> neversfelde_: of course, if you translate the Panel in GNOME CVS, that translation will automagically percolate to the next ubuntu release
<jordi> this gets us to the "working with upstream" chapter
<jordi> while rosetta is a great tool to get ubuntu translated verfy easily, it's vital that the translation teams cooperate with their upstream teams
<jordi> ie, the French Ubuntu team should be in contact with the French GNOME team, so they use the same guidelines, etc
<jordi> or don't duplicate efforts
<bugman> yes is the same with itlian team
<bugman> * italian
<jordi> we've had problems with some teams redoing all the work in Rosetta, which resulted in a completely different set of translations in Ubuntu and other distros.
<jordi> The "translation override" feature in rosetta is powerful and useful if used wisely. If it goes out of control, it can cause frictiuons between teams.
<jordi> We need to work on that, I believe it's a procedural problem which can be mostly solved by educating new translators which join the ubuntu teams
<jordi> there's been quite some talk on this on the rosetta list, and teams like italian or Brazilian have already implemented some measures to work nicely with their upstreams
<Amaranth> metacity
<bugman> i quit, thanks jordi :-)
<Amaranth> beryl-manager
<jordi> 20:45 < aleka> QUESTION: If I am eager to help the Ubuntu community, and the only way I can right now if through translation, What Can I do when the admin of a team does not respond to my requests or approve my membership to the team?
<jordi> good one!
<jordi> aleka: we're seeing this every now and then
<jordi> the best and quickest way is to mail us at rosetta@launchpad.net
<pepsiman> lots of people apply to teams without telling the team leader their email address
<jordi> and we'll mediaate
<jordi> ie, we'll try to contact the current leader. If he doesn't respont, we'll transfer leadership to whoever we think deserves it (ie, whoever wants to do the work ;)
<jordi> pepsiman: good point. That's bad, and I've suffered that myself.
<jordi> danilos: we should think on some way to circumvent this, when a leader can't contact a member because there's no public email address
<danilos> <dneary> QUESTION: We have had some issues with translations where people outside the project translated things badly, and we couldn't easily revert to the correct translation - how can I configure our translation to make sure only approved translation team members can do the translation?
<jordi> danilos: want to answer that one?
<danilos> dneary: at the moment, members of the translation team should only be those you trust; in other words, anyone who is member of your translation team can approve/modify translations
<dneary> And only translation team members can do translations?
<dneary> Thanks
<jordi> right, we ACK that there's oversized teams right now.
<jordi> dneary: if the given project is setup up like that, yes
<danilos> dneary: yes; anyone else can post suggestions -- we'll work on improving team layout (and docs), so this is clear to everybody
<jordi> 20:51 < tonyyarusso> QUESTION: Does Rosetta have some method for handling dialects?  I'm just getting the ball rolling for a language (oji) that varies widely (esp. for technical terms)
<jordi> tonyyarusso: not yet, but both danilos and I are involved with teams which would benefit of dialect support
<jordi> We really want to see this happen, but it's not high priority right now
<jordi> 20:53 < somerville32> QUESTION: How do you know if a translation is suggested or approved?
<tonyyarusso> jordi: What is the best way to approach things for the time being then until it is implemented?
<jordi> a approved translation appears in the translation field
<jordi> suggestions appear as suggestions beneath it
<danilos> jordi: as far as unresponsive team leaders, we can establish regular "checks" with team leaders; but that's something I feel ubuntu l10n coordinator should handle, since it's not a direct rosetta issue
<jordi> danilos: ^ want to answer that one?
<jordi> yeah, we haven't mentioned the coordinator at all
<danilos> jordi: sure
<jordi> 20:53 < dneary> QUESTION: Can I export translations in other formats than .po?
<jordi> dneary: no, Rosetta currently only groks po files
<jordi> although it will soon be able to export firefox and openoffice data via langpacks.
<metatecque> QUESTION - is Brandon here yet - isn't the open kubuntu discussion scheduled to start now?
<danilos> somerville32: any actual translation is the approved one; suggestions only appear as "suggestions"
<somerville32> kk
<jordi> but not via the standard export mechanism as far as I know, danilos can correct me
<dneary> So I need to do a post-processing move to generate a .ts?
<imbrandon> moins all ( sorry i'm really lagging here )
<jordi> 20:57 < dneary> QUESTION: What happens in Rosetta when an overridden string gets changed in a later revision of the upstream translation?
<danilos> dneary: btw, we're working on adding native support for other formats right now; first to come should be firefox XPIs, OpenOffice GSI's, KDE PO files, but we also have plans for XLIFF and others
<jordi> Rosetta has a "tracker" which makes it think it should follow what comes from upstram or not.
<imbrandon> jordi: ping me when you wrap it up i'm going to try to fix my lag issue
<jordi> In short, if you change a string, forking it to something different, it'll stay forked unless you put the upstram string back again.
<dneary> jordi: How do you get to decide?
<jordi> We want to implement a filter so it's easy to find these strings and do a "merge with upstream" for them, etc.
<dneary> Is there a fuzziness thing that shows you changed over-ridden strings?
<jordi> imbrandon: okay
<jordi> just kick us out when you're ready
<jordi> dneary: no, there's proposals to mark them as such
<jordi> hasn't happened yet
<jordi> 21:01 < aleka> QUESTION: where can I get help in aquiring fonts that I need for translating (Amharic - ethiopic fonts) that work in Linux. This question emailed to team leader twice and no response..
<jordi> aleka: you might want to ask in the ubuntu-devel list
<jordi> mark shuttleworth has big interest in getting ubuntu working out of the box for special script like yours
<jordi> if there are free fonts, it should be easy.
<imbrandon> ok jordi i think i'm fixed up here
<danilos> aleka: finding that information is sometimes even hard for the team leader, since it might be scattered all over internet
<jordi> just on time, because we're done with the questions
<imbrandon> :)
<jordi> Thanks everyone, and thanks danilo!
<jordi> next, Kubuntu!
<ivoks> thank you jordi and danilos
<kappa> thanks, jordi and danilos!
<danilos> everyone else, feel free to ping us whenever you've got questions :)
<ivoks> watch out, ping flood :)
<imbrandon> Hello everyone, I'm gonna kinda do this informal like, I have about 15 minutes worth of things to let everyone know about , things I think you might be interested in as new comers then I will let every one do a Q & A session.
<imbrandon> All I ask during the Q & A is that you speak one at a time so we can get as much covered in this timeslot as possible.
<imbrandon> What is Kubuntu? Kubuntu is the KDE centric sibling to Ubuntu, We have the same Dreams and Goals as Ubuntu , we just go about getting their via a different desktop.
<imbrandon> Kubuntu runs ( very well ) almost entirely community driven with very few core developers and at the moment only on canonical paid employee ( Johnathan Riddell )
<imbrandon> ( sorry for the lag time foks my connection is a bit slow right now )
<imbrandon> bear with me :)
<imbrandon> Looking forward to Feisty we have some exsciting things going on, a lot of KDE4 development is taking place and we're working hard to make it so KDE4 and KDE3 can be
<imbrandon> installed side by side so developers can work hard to port their app to KDE4 without worrying about compiling all of KDE just to work on their own app. ( of course the option to compile core KDE4 is still their too :P )
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<imbrandon> Also we have a lot of other new exciting things like plans to test and include KOffice 2 in feisty+1 and have ( and try to continue to make ) Useability improvements as suggested by the KDE Useability team that in turn gets absorbed upstream.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 5pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Kubuntu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<imbrandon> And also a lot of little things that just make life easier , such as automatic installation of codecs when one tries to play say an MP3 in Amarok and such.
<imbrandon> and lots of other great things all packed into a single CD
<imbrandon> are their any areas that you aparticularly interested in ?the community , the development ?
<imbrandon> ( man my lag is not good atm )
* tsmithe is interested in development
* tsmithe wonders what sets Kubuntu apart from the crowd
<Jucato> both, but more probably in development
* metatecque is interested in Kubuntu for a mobile platform
<imbrandon> tsmithe: well there are a few things
<imbrandon> 1 we share the same ideas as ubuntu in that we strive to make everything as easy as possible but still have a free distrobution
<imbrandon> and also
<tsmithe> 1 is a given ;)
<imbrandon> right :) and also
<Lure> tsmithe: lots of Kubuntu PyQt3 stuff needs porting to PyQt4 as preparation for KDE4 - if you know python, that may be nice task
* oddbloke points to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<imbrandon> we work very closely with upstream projects to try alot of useability features and default setting so  everything
<imbrandon> works very smootly togather as a unified desktop NOT the best of bread , but more about intergration
<imbrandon> and the ploiferation of KDE based applications
<imbrandon> you will notice things like FireFox isnt installed but we work on konqueror and such
<robotgeek> does kubuntu have a task list, varying by complexity, like KDE junior jobs, etc?
<imbrandon> robotgeek: not at the moment but that is one of the things we worked on doing at UDS
<imbrandon> it will be a reality in the next few weeks
<cbx33> imbrandon, what of utilities created for the gnome environment....are people availbale to help with porting them to KDE - or is that not a desired approach?
<Lynoure> Is there a typo in the topic or is there really activity here only two hours a day?
<metatecque> Question: Does kubuntu have plans to develop for the mobile environment?
<Lynoure> "between 3pm and 5pm UTC"
<imbrandon> cbx33: that is a very desired approach, infact there are alot of opertunities for pykde devel in kubuntu at the moment ... the installer is the most noticeable but
<robotgeek> hmm, 3 pm to 9 pm, maybe Lynoure (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek)
<Lure> metatecque: is "mobile environment" like laptop or you talking about ubuntu on gadgets?
<metatecque> more in the line of gadgets - but as powerful as a laptop
<cbx33> imbrandon, excellent
<imbrandon> cbx33: theree is a whole list i can provideon the wiki after the meeting
<cbx33> fantastic
<cbx33> maybe I'll port gisiomount to kde native ;)
<imbrandon> metatecque: what mobile env? laptops ort phones/pda?
<Lure> <lotusleaf> QUESTION: I noticed now in Kubuntu, in KDE Control Center -> System Administration -> Windows Applications it configures WINE easily with one click following Wine installation. Can we expect any additional such quick and easy tools to be included in KDE Control Center in the future?
<metatecque> phones / pda / "sony mylo" type devices
<imbrandon> yes you can look for ALOT , not just in the control center but all accross kubuntu
<imbrandon> install on demand is a major thing we're tweaking for feisty
<cbx33> is kubuntu hoping to include compiz/beryl for feisty?
<Lure> lotusleaf: grub config was discussed for feisty, not sure of other plans
<mocker> Is the new start menu that SuSE made going to be ported over?
<imbrandon> cbx33: not for feisty no, it will be an easy to install feature but not on by default in kubuntu
<cbx33> ok
<imbrandon> mocker: it already is in feisty as an optional package
<imbrandon> mocker: but likely wont be default
<Lure> <dtamas> kde4 will arrive with feisty or later?
<imbrandon> dtamas: our kde4 plans are to release it as the main desktop with feisty+1 but feisty will have it avaible for installation from the repo with just a few clicks
<metatecque> see my comment on mark shuttleworth's blog - http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/68#comment-13814
<Lure> dtamas: feisty kde4 will be targeted for kde apps developers, feisty+1 is for users
<imbrandon> metatecque: well it would be nice but kde upstream dosent support those devices
<Lure> <mahtavamatt> QUESTION: will there be at any stage, the release of a DVD EDITION, containing Ubuntu and all its derivatives with the option to choose either gnome, kde or xfce on install?
<dtamas> ok, thanks
<Lure> <mahtavamatt> QUESTION: I am asking about the release of a dvd that you are able to install either Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu off and also the ability to choose either Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu for a live session. Is this likely to happen, will there be an official release
<metatecque> what about developing for a device, even if we have to port it downstream?
<imbrandon> mahtavamatt: that has not been proposed to my knolage and not in the works , but that dosent mean it wont happen sometime
<mahtavamatt> okay, thanks
<Lure> <Jucato> QUESTION: KDE development cycle, doesn't sync with Ubuntu's (which sync's with GNOME). How does this affect Kubuntu? weren't there talks/proposals about separting Ubuntu's and Kubuntu's releases?
<imbrandon> metatecque: its really a question of man power, i see no problem with that but we need the interested developers to do the port of QT etc to make that viable
<mahtavamatt> for a system admins  like myslef it would be very handy
<Lure> Jucato: kde does not have fixed life cycle (yet), so it is hard to plan release on it - current approach is to pick what is current at ubuntu release time.
<imbrandon> Jucato: there were talks at one time about splitting the kubuntu releases to sync them with KDE more closely but I dont think that will happen untill AFTER the next LTS
<Lure> Jucato: this may change if kde moves to more predictable release cycles
<imbrandon> ( e.g when KDE4 makes a fixed cycle )
<imbrandon> Lure: exactly
<Jucato> ah
<Lure> <vyoman> QUESTION why did the team adopt KDE 4 so early (feisty), this "in between version time" could have been used to perfect stuff such as printing, boot screen, session switching etc...
<imbrandon> vyoman: very much work is stiull going into kde3 and kde3 will still be the default desktop, kde4 will only be there as an option for developers , so they can start porting their apps early
<imbrandon> vyoman: kde4 wont be the derfault desktop in kubuntu for atleaste 1 more year
<imbrandon> also
<imbrandon> we strive to keep everything on one install CD so with that in mind things like kde3 and kde4 wont both be default
<imbrandon> and things like KOffice by default ( to promote both kde apps and save space and memopry ) are looked at but defered to later releases
<imbrandon> ( again sorry for my lag in typing my ssh connection is kinda slow )
<imbrandon> with that said , what ar some of the things you all are looking for in the next release? ( please post to -chat )
<imbrandon> do you feel the entry to help with kubuntu has worked so far? is there anything we can do to improve that ?
<Lure> <somerville32> QUESTION: Are there any plans to improve Kubuntu performance?
<imbrandon> somerville32: yea , infact just before this class i was looking at ways to opti the loading of files on the live cd
<imbrandon> and many other various improvemnts go into the loading every chance we get
<Lure> vyoman> QUESTION is the team aware of the troubles caused by upgrading from dapper to edgy and if so have any lessons been learned?
<|harry|> On the Ubuntu podcast, one of the hosts made a comment about the performance of SUSE linux as oppose to Kubuntu. Why is their a difference?
<gsuveg> re
<popey> there is an ubuntu podcast?
<Lure> vyoman: fesity will get update-manager like ubuntu which should cover upgrades
<finalbeta> @upgrading question, One of the Feisty specs seems to be directed at solving those problems. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/dist-upgrader-fixes
<imbrandon> vyoman: yes we are aware of the issues, that is one reason we work ultra close with the ubuntu developers ( we are alot of the same team ) and also why there is a port of the upgrader tool to kubuntu for feisty
<Lure> <cbx33> QUESTION: Why does kubuntu appear to run faster from a live cd than the generic ubuntu?
<|harry|> http://ubuntuos.com/podcast/feed.xml
<imbrandon> that is not an official ubuntu podcast but yes there is one on ubuntuos.com
<imbrandon> ( i also hear rumors there might be one in the future TheFridge
<imbrandon> shhh
<vyoman> BTW i love kubuntu and like to say thank you guys for all the hard work (don't like to sound rude <s>)
<imbrandon> cbx33: that is purely appearance afaik
<Lure> <lotusleaf> QUESTION: Can we expect a frontend for iptables like Firestarter or Guarddog to be installed by default in future versions of Kubuntu without the user having to seek it out themselves?
<cbx33> imbrandon, ok
<imbrandon> vyoman: none taken:)
<fabio_> and a GUI for the nfs mount?
<imbrandon> lotusleaf: we have discussed this before at KCC meetings and decided against it, thats not to say it wot be revisited again, come to a meeting and tell us you want ti !
<imbrandon> fabio_: yes a GUI for NSF ( and samba ) mounts is in the works for kubuntu system settings
<Lure> lotusleaf: firewall decision will probably depend on overall *ubuntu decision - so we may just follow it
<imbrandon> its oe of the many pykde apps ready for help :)
<fabio_> yes imbrandon but i use ubuntu :p
<Lure> <barsanuphe> QUESTION are there any plans to use (or adapt) the Kickoff menu instead of current K menu?
<imbrandon> barsanuphe: it has been discussed but defered untill more testing can be done, but it is in talks
<imbrandon> weeather ti will be default or not is still up for grabs
<Lure> <Jucato> QUESTION: a lot of KDE users are complaining about how Kubuntu changes KDE too much (Konqueror, System Settings) or removes some things (Kuickshow). What are the developers' comments and reasons for this? How do they go about making such decisions and from where do they base these changes (studies, surveys, comments)?
<imbrandon> but it will be avail for an option atleaste
<imbrandon> Jucato: well thats depends on how you look at it, here is the process
<imbrandon> most kubuntu developers are upstream kde devlopers OR work closely with them, most of the defaults are sugested by ellen from KDE usability or celeste,
<imbrandon> ( including system settings )
<imbrandon> once they are proven to work out well they are given back to upstream
<imbrandon> as far as how
<imbrandon> they are decided , that is done for the mostpart at bi-weekly kubuntu meetings
<Lure> Jucato: lots of distros test new concepts now with kde3 as these ideas may be used for kde4 as default - suse kickoff is perfect example, kubuntu media:/ fixes may be another one
<imbrandon> right
<gnomefreak> do we even have a kickoff package?
<Jucato> ok... I guess the process isn't really just clear. A common misconception is that Kubuntu developers randomly remove/change things without much notice (even in release notes)
<Lure> Jucato: some changes may not be pleaseant to everybody, but you do not know this until they go out in the wild - /.hidden is good example which was backed out for feisty
<imbrandon> gnomefreak: yes i uploaded it yesterday ( it my still need approval from archiove admins )
<gnomefreak> :)
<Lure> Jucato: and yes, this should be better documented
<Lure> <finalbeta> QUESTION: Qt is supposed to be offering a clear looks theme since recently. Will this only be used for compatibility towards GNOME. Or could this be standard. Because allot of GNOME users could be turned if KDE didn't look like a failed XP style attempt. (last part is my own opinion of course)
<imbrandon> Jucato: yes that is a misconception and we'll try to make that more transparent for the feisty cycle
<Jucato> that's great news indeed :)
<Jucato> thanks!
<imbrandon> finalbeta: no kubuntu will keep its own distinct look
<Lure> finalbeta: this is only in Qt4, so not possible before feisty+1 (at least for users)
<Lure> <vyoman> QUESTION having installed kubuntu on grandads and the milk man's machine, one of the features family guys are missing from windows is prettier and faster session switching, what is the plan?
<imbrandon> vyoman: i really dont know the plans for that but i do know there are plans in the works for kde4
<imbrandon> to vastly improve that
<Lure> <barsanuphe> QUESTION will kuickshow ever come back?
<imbrandon> barsanuphe: anything is possible but gwenview is serving us well
<imbrandon> at the moment
<Jucato> (but needs kipi-plugins)
<Lure> barsanuphe: it was removed due to dependany issue - if this would be resolved upstream, we may include it again
<Lure> <ivoks> QUESTION: What's Riddell's favourite drink? :)
<fabio_> QUESTION will be implemented some like ubuntu media center like windows media center?
<imbrandon> irun brew ?
<imbrandon> iron bru !
<ivoks> uh, thanks
<ajmitch> imbrandon: irn-bru, I think
<imbrandon> ajmitch: thanks
<tenshu> fabio_: there is a third party project called Ubuntu Center but at this time it is in planning phase
<fabio_> tenks
<Lure> ivoks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irn_bru
<imbrandon> ok guys I'm going to wrap this up, and I promis not to lag out my next session, thanks everyone
<imbrandon> i'm gonna hand this over to LaserJock now for package stuff :)
<Lure> <nixternal> QUESTION: What is imbrandon's favorite drink ;p ?
<tenshu> see ubuntu official forums fabio_ for more infos
<nixternal> ;p
<imbrandon> MT DEW
<Jucato> lol
<imbrandon> !! FWT
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about FWT - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<imbrandon> ok guys, thanks alot, LaserJock good luck
<Jucato> thanks imbrandon!
<nixternal> thanks imbrandon !
<cbx33> thanks imbrandon
<ajmitch> good work imbrandon
<Lure> <Zerlinna> QUESTION Is there any chance that kubuntu will have more than one paid dev? (Didn't Mark promise something like this on LinuxTag?)
<imbrandon> ( btw the saturday session will be lag freee )
<LaserJock> ack, my clock says I have 6 minutes
<imbrandon> Zerlinna: yes
<ajmitch> LaserJock: 5-min break between sessions
<Lure> Zerlinna: probably Q for Mark tommorow on Q&A...
<imbrandon> Zerlinna: we just dont know who or when it will happen ( i'm guessing very soon )
<imbrandon> but better to ask mark tomarrow
<imbrandon> right Lure
<Zerlinna> ok :)
<cbx33> LaserJock, no we want you to start NOW !
<imbrandon> ok i'm out fellas, you all rock
* imbrandon ducks out to get a better net connection
<ivoks> you too
<imbrandon> <detaches>
<somerville32> I think my head is going to blow with all this awesome new stuff I'm learning today! :D
<fabio_> QUESTION, when i open the recorder, the stop button was always hidden and i must resize always the window, when the defult windows will be increase? :D
<popey> fabio_: works fine here
<fabio_> :o
* Jucato wasn't able to follow the translation session
<popey> on feisty :)
<fabio_> yesss but also with me nowwww
<popey> :)
<fabio_> sorry for mistake!! :p
<djay-il> QUESTION: when would package maintenance things will be explained?
<fabio_> maybe is tango!
<finalbeta> djay-il, any minute now.
<LaserJock> 1 minute
<tonyyarusso> imbrandon is all done?
<djay-il> oh, cool
<gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: looks like it
<cbx33> my clock says now LaserJock :p
<djay-il> I had another question, just don't know who to ask
<Jucato> yep, he already detached
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 5pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Package Maintaining
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<Lure> djay-il: ask in -chat or in #kubuntu-devel
<LaserJock> ok, I think that's my queue
<LaserJock> Hello everybody!
<LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a PhD Chemistry student and Ubuntu volunteer.
<djay-il> Lure, even if its not really technical?
<LaserJock> In Ubuntu I'm a Universe developer, a part of the Documentation Team, on the Edubuntu Council, and am just generally an Ubuntu-holic.
<LaserJock> Today I want to talk a little about what how we maintain software once it's already in our software repositories (Main, Restricted, Universe, Multiverse)
<LaserJock> First of all, in order to keep the noise level down a bit in here, please also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat and when you want to ask a question just put a "Question:" in front of your question. Thanks.
<LaserJock> To be honest I don't have a full hour of lecturing ready
<LaserJock> and everybody goes "Yay!"
<finalbeta> yay
<tictacaddict> Yay!
<somerville32> :)
<LaserJock> so I'll start out with some material and then open it up for some Q & A
<LaserJock> I think there are 2 things that are important to keep in mind here:
<LaserJock> 1. Ubuntu is intimately connected to Debian
<LaserJock> 2. Ubuntu uses Launchpad ( http://launchpad.net ) for virtually all package maintenance
<LaserJock> Let's look at both of those a little more carefully.
<LaserJock> Ubuntu, as most of you probably know, is derived from Debian
<LaserJock> which is one of the oldest Linux distros around
<LaserJock> At the beginning of every Ubuntu development cycle the archive admins update the Ubuntu development repository with the packages that are currently in Debian unstable (Sid).
<LaserJock> If the package was previously changed or modified by Ubuntu it will have ubuntu in the version (alacarte's version in 6.10 is  0.10.1-0ubuntu1 for instance).
<LaserJock> If the package has an ubuntu version then it won't be "synced" automatically, but instead a special script called Merge-o-Matic (MoM) will try to merge the changes as best it can and spit out a report on http://merges.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> *Every* updated package that previously had Ubuntu changes is checked manually and either merged if the old changes are still needed or synced if they can be dropped. This takes a fair amount of time and accounts for a lot of the maintenance work we do in Ubuntu.
<LaserJock> In Universe our primary goal is the manage (and minimize) the divergence we create from Debian. In Main there is a bit more emphasis on going beyond just managing divergence and really into developing and leading the way in desktop development.
<LaserJock> Because of our intimate connection it is important that we keep at least some track of what's going on in Debian. We do this primarily via the Debian Bug Tracking System (BTS)
<LaserJock> http://bugs.debian.org
<LaserJock> and Package Tracking System (PTS)
<LaserJock> http://packages.qa.debian.org
<LaserJock> This allows us to keep track of Debian versions and bug fixes.
<LaserJock> OK, so now I'll give you a little time to digest all that and ask any questions so far
<LaserJock> nice, I see I've explained everything perfectly :-)
<tictacaddict> I have a question
<LaserJock> shoot
<tictacaddict> Can unmodified debian packages normally be installed in Ubuntu?  will there be problems with dependencies sometimes?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> there are differences
<LaserJock> although the source packages may not be different, *every* package in Ubuntu is rebuilt in an Ubuntu environment
<LaserJock> so the resulting binary packages often have slightly different dependecies
<greguti> I have a question..
<whowe> QUESTION:  Will Ubuntu packages work fine in Mepis or should you use the Debian packages, I have noticed on a machine with Mepis that it uses Ubuntu repositories
<danbuntu> QUESTION - by roughly how much do the packages change, what changes and why?
<cbx33> danbuntu, that's exactly what I was goign to ask
<LaserJock> whowe: they might, but there certainly isn't any way to say for sure. It's obviously best to use packages built for your distro
<greguti> QUESTION: how many people spend their time checking the MoM packages? You said it takes a lot of time, but for how many developpers?
<LaserJock> danbuntu: primarily the changes are in dependences or if there is something that Ubuntu is pushing forward with
<amnesia> post the questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<LaserJock> examples have been when we used a newer default Python and gcc version
<LaserJock> we had to "tweak" the dependecies to use those versions
<somerville32> LaserJock: Did you finish your presentation and now at Q&A or are we just in a Q&A "break"?
<LaserJock> Q & A break
<somerville32> :)
<LaserJock> I've got more
<LaserJock> some package change very little, like literally one line
<LaserJock> other are pretty heavily patched
<LaserJock> it depends on what Ubuntu wants to have to maintain
<LaserJock> because the next time around we are going to have to merge those changes back in
<LaserJock> so that goes to greguti's question of just how much time is this taking
<LaserJock> well, generally it takes all the developers a few months to get the process comleted
<LaserJock> Main has more paid developers and there is a larger packages/devs ratio
<LaserJock> so it goes faster
<LaserJock> to give you an idea
<LaserJock> there are 18656 source packages in Edgy Universe
<LaserJock> 1250 of them have ubuntu versions and have to be merges/synced
<tsmithe> woah
<La_PaRCa>  QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian BTS and PTS automatic for each package or is it "by hand"?
<LaserJock> in Main the number is 5382 and 978
<LaserJock> so total in Ubuntu there are roughly 2000 packages that have to be manually looked at with each release
<LaserJock> La_PaRCa: some of both
<greguti> that's a lot!
<ajmitch> it is a lot
<LaserJock> and there are roughly 80-100 people doing it
<tsmithe> 20 each
<ajmitch> but not all of them are updated every release cycle
<greguti> that is an average of 20 packages for each people...
<Sionide> ajmitch, aye but dependencies etc might change so they still need testing (i guess anyway)
<LaserJock> yes, each package must be looked at, modified if needed, and rebuilt and tested befor it ever gets uploaded
<cbx33>  Does one need an intimate knowledge of make/automake to be able to package "make" source tree?
<greguti> (thanks for all these informations, this Open Week irc chats are such a great idea)
<LaserJock> intimate, no, some is helpful though :-)
<tenshu> is debian merging changes with ubuntu packages the same way ubuntu does?
<LaserJock> tenshu: no
<LaserJock> Debian has a different maintainance structure than Ubuntu
<LaserJock> in Debian each package has a maintiane or even team of maintainers that "own" a package
<LaserJock> in Ubuntu we use team maintianence
<Lure> QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian systems automatic for each package or is it by hand?
<tsmithe> didnt we have that q?
<Lure> ^^^ by <La_PaRCa>
<LaserJock> so MOTU ( Masters of the Universe) maintain *all* of the Universe repo
<LaserJock> ok, so an example of a semi-automatic system is a list I maintain for the MOTU Science team
<LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.list
<Lure> <adefelice> QUESTION: Is it possible that a package which has no bugs in debian has bugs in Ubuntu?
<LaserJock> ^^ is an example of a system we set up to track Ubuntu and Debian changes
<tsmithe> LaserJock, not found
<tsmithe> :(
<LaserJock> sorry
<LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.html
<tsmithe> cool
<LaserJock> adefelic1: yes it is possible, anytime you modify something there is a chance you introduce a bug
<LaserJock> we'd like to think we fix more then we introduce :-)
<Lure> <lotusleaf> QUESTION: Are there any plans to keep WINE up-to-date and available as a .deb within the official Ubuntu repos, rather than have it sit at the version it is now within them, leaving people to use a 3rd party repo without a gpg key (unless they compile from source) to get the latest version?
<LaserJock> well, that is always the goal
<gnomefreak> what version is it at now?
<gnomefreak> 22?
<LaserJock> we don't sit around all day thinking how we can give users old, crusty software
<LaserJock> we try to do our best to have as stable and updated of software as we can
<LaserJock> but wine is maintained by the Ubuntu community and it's a tough packages
* tsmithe thinks there should be less q&a but more explaining of how the system works, how maintenance is done, etc <- that's my question (sorry if it disregards all people who want theirs answered :) )
<LaserJock> so you are more than welcome to help maintain it and we can help you along the way
<cbx33> compiling from source is pretty easy
<cbx33> esp for wine
<Lure> <orphean> Question, what's the recommended route for some interesting in contributing to package maintaing?
<LaserJock> Get in contact with the MOTU team
<LaserJock> either #ubuntu-motu or the ubuntu-motu mailing list on lists.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> MOTU does a lot of work on helping people learn to create and maintain packages
<LaserJock> tsmithe: I agree
<LaserJock> ok, lets move on a little bit more
<cbx33> it totally does
<cbx33> the pacakging guide is great too
<LaserJock> the second thing I wanted to talk about was Launchpad
<LaserJock> The first thing is you have to figure out how to use Launchpad. It is a rather large and sometimes confusing system but it also houses a lot of power.
<LaserJock> My primary advice to people who want to use Launchpad very much is to learn how to create your own URL.
<LaserJock> For instance, if you want to know about a particular source package use:
<LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>
<LaserJock> If you want to see all the bugs for a package just add on +bugs:
<LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>/+bugs
<LaserJock> Parts of the URL with the + in front are important, they are like modifiers to the thing that goes before it. In this case we want to see bugs for <packagename>
<LaserJock> so really package maintainance in Ubuntu is broken down into 2 parts for the most part
<LaserJock> the first is the merge/synce process that we've already talked about
<LaserJock> where we sort of take a new snapshot of Debian
<LaserJock> the second part comes after we've done that and we've "frozen"
<LaserJock> and that is bug fixing
<LaserJock> for that we use the Launchpad bug tracking system called Malone
<LaserJock> ok, Lure can you pull in some more questions?
<Lure> <danbuntu> Question - there's always talk of weather rpm, tqz, deb or what ever is better. Do you think that the current deb system is still relevent and suitable?
<LaserJock> well, that is an interesting question
<LaserJock> my answer is I haven't seen anything better that can be used at this scale
<LaserJock> I think debs are still very relevent and suitable
<Lure>  <tictacaddict> QUESTION: Malone like Mal-Won or Maloney
<LaserJock> there are a major reason why Debian is as stable and secure as it is
<cbx33> mal-own?
<LaserJock> and it is also in development
<gnomefreak> ma-lone is kind of how i say it :)
<LaserJock> me too
<Lure> gnomefreak: +1
<ryanakca> m-alone :)
<Lure> <tenshu> Question : It seems to have a lot of work done with merging/syncing; But why does it take so long to get a package accepted through REVU?
<LaserJock> ah, good question
<LaserJock> the basic answer is (in my experience) it is very difficult to review other people's packages
<LaserJock> in fact I can often take more time reviewing a package than the person did actually making it
<woodwizzle> I'm still a big fan of portage. It solves most of the problems with dependencies and has excellent features for optional packages etc. It makes updating very easy too. Its just that loooong compile time that ruins it. I would like something new with most of those features.
<LaserJock> woodwizzle: yes, I'm a former Gentoo user. portage has some rather nice features
<Joe_CoT> yes, aren't we /all/ former gentoo users ^_^
<Lure> <somerville32> QUESTION: Can you explain backports and stable release updates? How easy is it to get each approved respectively? What circumstances call for these to occur?, etc.
<LaserJock> tenshu: to continue answering your question, it's also a time managment issue. maintaining the packages we already have takes a lot of time too
<LaserJock> people want new packages
<LaserJock> people want the latest packages
<LaserJock> people want bug-free packages
<LaserJock> at some point we can't do it all :-)
<LaserJock> so we try to work on a little bit of all of those
<Lure> LaserJock: and it is only 6 month to do this all ;-)
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> we spend a few months getting all synced up to Debian
<LaserJock> we spend a fair amount of time bug fixing
<LaserJock> people intersted in the timing should check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule
<Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<LaserJock> ok, yes
<Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackportsHowto
<LaserJock> once a Release has been released it is really frozen
<LaserJock> we don't add any totally new packages
<LaserJock> and we have 3 channels for updates
<LaserJock> -security (what the name suggests, security fixes)
<LaserJock> -updates (major and high impact bug fixes. "Ma, my computer ate my homework"
<LaserJock> -backports ( taking packages from the development release and building them for a stable release)
<Lure> <greguti> QUESTION: why did you choose to use Launchpad and not some other bug-tracking and versioning system? What are the benefits of this system?
<LaserJock> we have policies in place (as Lure gave some URLs for) for all of these
<LaserJock> greguti: ah, well Launchpad is written by Canonical
<LaserJock> we used to use bugzilla for our bug-tracking
<LaserJock> but Canonical wanted to build a large infrastructure for distro and software development
<kudzubane> malone vs. bugzilla?
<LaserJock> so we have bug tracking, translations, specification tracking, meeting tracking, teams
<LaserJock> so when Launchpad and Malone seemed usable we switched over
<LaserJock> and now we are using it for package building and archiving
<Lure> <cbx33> QUESTION: Are there plans to make the REVU process documented a little clearer?
<LaserJock> of course :-)
<cbx33> short ans sweet I love it ;)
<Lure> <kudzubane> QUESTION: are there formal regression tests for new/updated packages during the revu process?
<LaserJock> we have plans of making everything perfectly documented and running like a well-oiled-machines
<LaserJock> however, that takes a lot of manpower and will take some time
<LaserJock> kudzubane: revu specifically?
<kudzubane> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> REVU is primarly designed for brand new packages, ones that don't exist in Ubuntu/Debian currently
<kudzubane> LaserJock: my mistake, all packages
<LaserJock> we usually use bug reports for patches to existing packages
<ajmitch> there are plans afoot for distro-wide testing
<LaserJock> I can't speak a whole lot about Main on this
<LaserJock> but there are plans
<Lure> <diocles> QUESTION: Where should bugs against feisty get filed in launchpad? Do we have to check whether the package differs to the one in Edgy?
<LaserJock> so far it's more-or-less been up to individual developers to test things before uploading
<LaserJock> diocles: file it like any bug. it's always helpful to say what release you are running and what version of the package you are using
<Lure> <danbuntu> QUESTION - do you ever get time to sleep or is all just package, package, package?
<LaserJock> diocles: what's sleep?
<ajmitch> LaserJock never sleeps, he just keeps on going
<Lure> <gumpa> QUESTION: what does the final '4' mean in the package version: 0.9.22-0ubuntu4
<LaserJock> gumpa: well, the first time we changed it we used 0.9.22-0ubuntu1
<LaserJock> the 4 just means we've updated that package 3 more times
<LaserJock> since then
<Lure> <Terminus> QUESTION: Wouldn't it be better to have some of the newer packages make it into -updates instead of -backports? Sometimes people don't like enabling -backports and -updates. Maybe -updates would be appropriate? Example, the recent changes upstream for flashplugin-nonfree. It meant that flash was broken on newly installed dapper systems until you use -backport or manually install the -backport deb.
<LaserJock> well, that's a tough question
<Terminus> whoops just i meant they don't like enabling just -backports. sorry. i just woke up. =)
<LaserJock> we have worked out a Stable Release Updtate policy that should help clear up what does and doesn't go into updates and makes sure it is properly tested
<LaserJock> the problem is that -updates and -backports have a different focus
<LaserJock> -updates is focused at fixing bugs in an existing package
<LaserJock> that has to make sure that we aren't introducing new bugs
<Terminus> well, i would say that flashplugin-nonfree not working is definitely a bug. =)
<LaserJock> we want to make the user's system *more* stable not less
<LaserJock> -backports is focused more at getting the latest versions
<Lure> <tiagoboldt> QUESTION: How do we 'get our hands dirty'?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure about flash but it does take more time to get into -updates then -backports because of the stability issue
<Terminus> i see. thanks. =)
<LaserJock> I'd really encourage everybody interested in contributing to check out the MOTU
<LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<LaserJock> and #ubuntu-motu
<LaserJock> these are the community volunteers that make Universe and Multiverse work
<LaserJock> and they are the entry point into learning how to package and maintianing packages in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> I can in now way do justice to the topic in 1 hr
<LaserJock> but hopefully I've given you a few things to chew on and perhaps answered a few of your questions
<Lure> <tictacaddict> Question: Sorry, what is REVU again?
<greguti> thanks a lot for your time
<LaserJock> we really like to emphasize community participation
<LaserJock> and you are really welcome to help us out, no matter what your skill level is
<LaserJock> we aren't just looking for programmers (although they are handy too ;-) )
<LaserJock> tictacaddict: revu.tauware.de
<LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
<Lure> tictacaddict: revu is read as "review"
<tenshu> yes i can tell it packaging don't required (much) programming skill
<LaserJock> it's the system we wrote to allow us to review and include packages from the community into Universe
<Lure> <zi99y> QUESTION: Wouldnt it make sense to have the auomatix packages available as standard but restricted depending on your location. i.e. if they are legal in your part of the world?
<LaserJock> zi99y: no
<LaserJock> Automatix is something that is used quite a bit in forums community
<LaserJock> but it is essentially obsolete
<LaserJock> and I really don't see it serving a purpose anymore once Feisty is released
<LaserJock> it filled a gap for a while, but it's probably time for it to go soon
<LaserJock> but that's just my opinion :-)
<Lure> zi99y: see also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonCustomizations
<LaserJock> we saw lots of breakage in the Dapper->Edgy upgrades because of third party repos
<LaserJock> and scripts like Automatix
<Lure>  <tm|ubuntu> Is there any plan to have something analogous to debian-volatile?
<LaserJock> it's just hard on the system to do things like that
<LaserJock> tm|ubuntu: well, there has been a longstanding proposal for something called Grumpy Groundhog
<monkeric> LaserJock: this has been super useful.  Just wanted to say a huge Thank You.
<LaserJock> it might be somewhat similar, although more towards debian's experimental repo
<LaserJock> ok, I'm done
<Lure> <_MMA_> QUESTION: Will the "becoming a MOTU" get a structure? ie: Step1, Step2 and so on?
<LaserJock> Thanks everybody
<LaserJock> _MMA_: yes it will
<tictacaddict> Thank YOU!
<kudzubane> thanks for sharing , it was enlightening to peep into a component  of a the a new (to me) distro
<LaserJock> hmm, I guess I'm the last person of today
<greguti> thank you so much, ubuntu rules :-)
<tiagoboldt> sure, thank U! :D And the ones responsible for these sessions :D
<LaserJock> so if you have any remaning questions feel free to ask
<stani> thanks!
<tenshu> thanks LaserJock, and i'm hoping REVU will becom more efficient in a close future
<tenshu> =)
<Jucato> QUESTION: where's the food? don't they give those out after seminars? :P
<zi99y> any opensuse devs here? :D
<LaserJock> Jucato: ahh, Google is the place for food
<geser> Jucato: in the fridge :)
<amnesia> LaserJock: thanks for the info today
<LaserJock> tenshu: we do to
<zi99y> thanks LJ
<tenshu> =) count on me
<Jucato> heheh :)
<antihec> but do take care, things in the ubuntu fridge are of rare supply and sometimes a bit old ;-)
<LaserJock> antihec: maybe even a bit moldy :/
<Jucato> eww... :)
<LaserJock> OK, make sure to come tomorrow if you can
<LaserJock> lots more info
<LaserJock> and fun!!!
<Terminus> thanks LaserJock =)
<antihec> LaserJock: :-)
<Jucato> thanks LaserJock!!
<tiagoboldt> packaging would have chatting for hours :D
<Jucato> lots more fun in the Ask Mark session :P
<tiagoboldt> sure 'how's space mark?' xD
<jonasj> thanks LaserJock, it has been very enlightning.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o robotgeek]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:robotgeek] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: Becoming an Ubuntu Member
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o robotgeek]  by ChanServ
<tonyyarusso> robotgeek: Fine!  Be that way!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<robotgeek> tonyyarusso: heh, beat you to it :)
<tonyyarusso> :(
<robotgeek> tonyyarusso: you can change it tommorow morning to "current session" :)
<LjL> gnomefreak: i've had Keyseir run "memtest" (not memtest86, but memtest from the "memtester" package - it's a program that checks RAM *from inside* Linux)
<LjL> gnomefreak: and he's getting a bunch of failures. which means either the RAM is bad, or Linux is messing up badly with it. and since memtest86 isn't failing, i guess it's really just Linux
<antihec> LjL:  third possibility: "memtester" is br0ken.
<Seveas> @channel plugins.questions.enabled True
<andy> hi
<root> exit
<root> quit
<root> exit
<andre2> hi all
<Pirige> hi
<andre2> i read about the ubuntu week today on heise online
<andre2> but missed the appointment :(
<Terminus> andre2: there're chat logs available. see topic. =)
<nalioth> andre2: there are 4 more days  :)
<tristanbob> are the logs of these classroom discussions going to be posted anywhere?
<Seveas> @next
<Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
<nalioth> tristanbob: /topic ?
<LjL> tristanbob: /topic
<Pirige> Did I miss the kubuntu talk?
<andre2> yes
<Pirige> when was it?
<tristanbob> nalioth: thanks - LjL
<dabaR> Pirige: you can read the logs, like I am...
<dabaR> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
<Seveas> @dump
<Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
<Pirige> thanks
<Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
<Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
<Ubugtu> No more questions
<Seveas> @clear
<Seveas> @dump
<Ubugtu> No more questions
<LaserJock> Seveas: is it working?
<Seveas> yes
<LaserJock> how does it work?
<zorglu_> Seveas: you do a bot to handle meeting/conference thru irc ?
<Seveas> LaserJock, I'll send an email to sounder in a it
<Seveas> bit*
<LaserJock> Seveas: ok, excellent
<Terminus> Seveas: does that have perms? i'd hate to think what would happen if somebody randomly does @clear. =)
<Terminus> or maybe restrict that kind of access to ops?
<Seveas> it has no perms
<Seveas> may be useful
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Oooh, yeah.  op restriction would be important, potentially.
<nalioth> nobody has perms for @clear, to my knowledge
<Seveas> nalioth, it's the @clear of the just writtn qustions plugin
<Seveas> everybody can do that
<samkong> I missed all today.. :(
<nalioth> ok, i'm very lost
<Seveas> nalioth, don't worry :P)
<Seveas> err s/P//
<antihec> there are logs, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<samkong> is there any log of today's conversation on this room?
<samkong> :)
<antihec> samkong: might want to read up.
<samkong> heh thanks
<antihec> welcome :)
<dabaR> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html samkong
<samkong> :)
<andre2> great
<samkong> thanks a lot..
<samkong> :)
<andre2> so i have a lot to read tomorrow
<antihec> yeah, me too :)
<Seveas> nalioth, is the person who runs a session opped/voiced?
<apokryphos> generally
<Seveas> which of them?
<Seveas> oped?
<nalioth> Seveas: the channel hasn't been moderated that i've seen
<tonyyarusso> Seveas, nalioth: We've had a little of everything.
<Seveas> nalioth, two new commands need to be restricted without people registering with the bot
<Seveas> so preferably the person doing a session is opped
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: It is relatively easy to have the presenter (or at least someone in attendance) opped.
<Terminus> or at least voiced
<apokryphos> they were opped, but generally it wasn't +m
<apokryphos> it really depends on the talk though
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-11-28
<tonyyarusso> Terminus: ^^, which is why voice doesn't mean much
<tonyyarusso> apokryphos: at least one of them did it without even being opped
<Terminus> tonyyarusso: yeah, but in this case, voice would be use to restrict who has access to the bot, not who can speak under +m. =)
* apokryphos doesn't know about this bot thing
<Seveas> apokryphos, noone does ;)
<theCore> were are the logs?
<theCore> where/
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Check the wiki page
<apokryphos> ubotu: logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<theCore> I checked at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs but they aren't there
<antihec> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
<nalioth>  /topig
<nalioth> theCore: /topic
<theCore> ok, I got them
<theCore> thanks
<nalioth> i would put /topic in the onjoin, but folks ignore those, too
<antihec> you'd have to have an overlay flash-banner or something ;-)
<theCore> nalioth, I read the topic, it's just that the logs list is so long
<dabaR> The seb128 session was not so informative for me.
<dabaR> Maybe for someone who never heard of any of those things.
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Try the "Backup" listed on the wiki for saner ones.
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I did
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Wait a few hours ;)
<theCore> ah
<theCore> well, I just want to read today session
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Which one?
<theCore> all of them
<dabaR> someone should do some parsing work, to remove all joins and leaves and crap from the logs
<theCore> I am preparing Friday's quiz based on the Open Week content
<antihec> dabaR: go ahead :-)
<dabaR> if it proves the sessions are useful for the general public and then they could be put on a wiki or somehwere.
<dabaR> I bet someone is gonna do it, it is very obvious
<theCore> I will
<BOOOYAAA> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssuuuuuuup
<LaserJock> jono: you're back!
<jono> heya :)
<jono> hows things?
<LaserJock> phew, what a day :-)
<jono> busy, eh :)
<LaserJock> yeah
<jono> I am really pleased with it
<LaserJock> yeah, I had  310-330 people in here for mine
<jono> awesome isnt it :)
<tonyyarusso> dabaR: My log should be ignoring joins parts quits already...
<jono> I am so proud of our community :)
<LaserJock> yeah, better then I expected
<theCore> hello LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore
<apokryphos> yeah, this week is a wonderful idea, certainly :)
<apokryphos> it's nice to get some more interaction from the devs on IRC, too =)
<LaserJock> jono: we need a little bit better question control but I think Seveas is taking care of that
<apokryphos> (like the older days)
<tonyyarusso> dabaR: And some kind soul pointed me to a cleanup script.
<jono> well I can I assure you it will be repeated
<YoussefAssad> was there any heckling of any form from suse-folk?
<jono> YoussefAssad: nope
* theCore wonders if this channel will overflow tomorrow...
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock, jono: Yep - someone gave me an idea and I got him to implement it :)
<YoussefAssad> That's a relief.
<apokryphos> YoussefAssad: not at all. Most suse users have responded very well to Mark's actions
<LaserJock> no, most of the heckling was from Ubuntu people ;-)
<jono> hehe
<jono> I think we have week of excellent sessions planned
<jono> I nearly got RSI from the typing in my own session
<jono> some great questions came through :)
<YoussefAssad> apokryphos: I'd hope so. I can't see why anyone would stay that close to Novell now, whether they jump ship to ubuntu or wherever
<tonyyarusso> We had some awesome questions like "who does dholbach's hair?" and "How can I grow a rocking beard like yours?"
<YoussefAssad> anyhow, that's off-topic. Apologies
<jono> tonyyarusso: woo!!
<LaserJock> haha
<antihec> hehe
<apokryphos> YoussefAssad: that's ridiculous. Novell is only a sponsor of openSUSE, like Canonical to Ubuntu. It doesn't dictate how they act
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock, jono: heck, I'll just show you methinks
<apokryphos> furthermore, I think people have plainly overreacted to the whole issue. But hey.
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> tonyyarusso asked: So what do you guys think of the spiffy bot?
<YoussefAssad> apokryphos: I wouldn't want a corporation telling me it was covering my arse but not my friend's just because he was an ubuntu packager and not a suse developer
<apokryphos> tonyyarusso: oo, so what kind of things are going to be implemtented.
<Terminus> @next
<Ubugtu> No more questions
<antihec> @clear ;-)
<Ubugtu> clear Delete remaining questions
<jono> how do people add the questions?
<YoussefAssad> apokryphos: worse, telling me it was covering my butt for things which they were certain I hadn't done, but you know, just in case.
<apokryphos> nice
<Terminus> jono: prefix it with QUESTION.
<tonyyarusso> You preface yours with question: in -chat
<theCore> I planning to strip the logs, where would be the best place to put the content? under UbuntuOpenWeek/Logs?
<YoussefAssad> there I go, offtopic again
<Terminus> like QUESTION: How do people ask questions?
<Seveas> 'question:' actually
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Sounds good
<Seveas> the colon is needed
<apokryphos> YoussefAssad: join me in -offtopic briefly, if you want.
<nalioth> theCore: w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts
<jono> Terminus: ahhh
<Terminus> Seveas: whoops... right. forgot. hehe
<Terminus> @next
<Ubugtu> tonyyarusso asked: in -chat
<theCore> nalioth, ok, thanks
<apokryphos> looks good
<Terminus> hmmm...
<tonyyarusso> Oh cool, it doesn't require it to begin the string
<Terminus> QUESTION: How do people ask questions?
<tonyyarusso> That lets you put a comment before it, if that's useful
<Terminus> @next
<Ubugtu> Terminus asked: How do people ask questions?
<La_PaRCa> @next
<Ubugtu> La_PaRCa asked: Spiffy bot?
<theCore> Seveas, I will probably steal your little question plugin for #ubuntu-trivia ;)
<Terminus> well, it works. hehe
<Seveas> theCore, code is not available yet :)
* ompaul thought that the whole idea of -classroom (the way we set it up was)
<tonyyarusso> theCore: good idea though
<jono> could this question system be written up on a wiki page somewhere
<jono> we can trial it for a session and see how it works
<ompaul>  /mode +m classroom and then the lecture begins - with someone acting as mentor/notetaker
<Seveas> if it doesn't work, just mute the bot
<ompaul> and they got the questions passed to them
<theCore> Seveas, I got the bot bzr's branch. Tell me when you will update it
<ompaul> then they passed the questions on at the end
<Terminus> Seveas: the bot responded when i said 'like QUESTION: How do people ask questions?' but didn't store it. maybe stop it from reacting if it doesn't match /^question:/i ?
<ompaul> rather than having a place where the questions were "brewed"
<Terminus> @next
<Ubugtu> Terminus asked: How do people ask questions?
<Terminus> @next
<Ubugtu> Terminus asked: How do people ask questions?' but didn't store it. maybe stop it from reacting if it doesn't match /^question:/i ?
<Terminus> lol
<Seveas> Terminus, what was the response?
<antihec> hehe
<LaserJock> ompaul: well, I think it's a bit handier for the speaker to control the question flow
<Terminus> Seveas: the thank you for your question bit.
<Terminus> @next
<Ubugtu> No more questions
<Seveas> @reload Questions
<Seveas> fixed
<ompaul> LaserJock, the way that system works is that the "same question" gets asked once and at one time
<tonyyarusso> ompaul: Yes, but people wanted to do some talk on the side anyway, and it's nice to be able to ask your question when you think of it.
<Terminus> cool. thanks. =)
<LaserJock> ompaul: but that's not suitable for all
<Terminus> blah blah blah QUESTION: i have no question.
<Seveas> ompaul, tonyyarusso suggested it and I was slightly bored ;)
<ompaul> LaserJock, alas nothing is suitable for all
<LaserJock> sure :-)
<ompaul> Seveas, heh
<Seveas> ompaul, so if it works: good and if it doesn': meh
<ypsila> good night / evening
<LaserJock> Seveas: is there a way for the op to see the list of questions
<ompaul> Seveas, my previous comment, ditto ;-)
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Are you working on making it op-only?
<Terminus> @next
<Ubugtu> Terminus asked: foo
<Terminus> ok. works. =)
<Seveas> LaserJock, no, tonyyarusso yes
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: LaserJock's idea could also be good - I suppose if dump doesn't clear that would do it, no?
<ompaul> question: to be or not to be is that a question?
<Seveas> yeah
<ompaul> @next
<Ubugtu> ompaul asked: to be or not to be is that a question?
<ompaul> seveas want to make it "smarter"
<ompaul> log it and push it to a web page - then people can see what is already asked for a session
<ypsila> in a classroom you don not greet people?
<tonyyarusso> ompaul: Oooo - fancy!
<antihec> ypsila: only the teacher.
<Seveas> ompaul, we have logs for that
<Seveas> they include answers :P
<ypsila> antihec: and this is who? please?
<antihec> ypsila: I have no idea :)
<ypsila> good
<ompaul> Seveas, question: can someone see the questions on the fly?
<ypsila> or bad
* ypsila thinks it is ignoration
<Seveas> ompaul, not yet
<antihec> ompaul: whoever reads -chat can, I think.
<ompaul> Seveas, I note the "yet"
<theCore> wow, the session lasted 2 hours?
<ompaul> antihec, if I join late and 25 people have asked the same question I may ask it again -- however if it is on a web page then I may not ask it etc
<theCore> that will be long to strip down
<ompaul> theCore, would not be the first time -classroom went over budget on time
<YoussefAssad> theCore: You aren't stripping manually?
<theCore> YoussefAssad, I was planning to
<YoussefAssad> gah. Show me the link to the log...
<ypsila> strange
<theCore> but I will probably need to find a better way
<LaserJock> theCore: the sessions were 1hr long
<antihec> YoussefAssad: theCore, hehe, you don't want to have that cited out of context :-)
<LaserJock> haha
<YoussefAssad> antihec: Especially since we're talking about actually stripping IRC logs... Self-referential self-incrimination
* antihec snickers.
* ypsila feels a bit lost in here
<theCore> there's been a lot of hugs during that session it seems
<LaserJock> ypsila: what's up
<YoussefAssad> is this it?  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
<ypsila> LaserJock: I'm new to kubuntu-de
<Terminus> oh yeah, it should be mentioned that the timestamps in the logs are UTC+1 =)
<LaserJock> ypsila: I see
<ypsila> LaserJock: but I do not make any difference between gnome and kde
<LaserJock> Terminus: we could probably turn them into UTC couldn't we?
<LaserJock> :-)
* theCore truly loves Emacs
<theCore> I stripped down 70% the whole thing with one command
<LaserJock> ypsila: there are some, but they are both very usable
<ypsila> LaserJock: I know
<Terminus> LaserJock: yep. just something that new readers might not be aware of. =)
<ypsila> LaserJock: the most important thing for me is: linux whatever shape
<ypsila> oer gui
<ypsila> -e
<LaserJock> mhm
* ypsila is tired, going to bed now
<ypsila> have a good night, evenint, or whatwever time it may be at you place
<LaserJock> have a good sleep ypsila
<LaserJock> come back tomorrow :-)
<ypsila> LaserJock: sure I will ;-)
<ypsila> away
<ypsila> now
<tonyyarusso> Terminus: I hadn't even thought of the timestamp issue....
<antihec> ypsila: what did you use before turning to kubuntu?
<Terminus> tonyyarusso: noticed it because i was looking for the sessions that i missed while i was sleeping. =)
<theCore> oh, sweet seb128 used rST syntax
<theCore> that means I can convert it to HTML or PDF easily
<eskilled> wtf is up niggers and niggettes me and my boy zack from linuxteens.com and also #linuxteens on freenode wanna send a giant muthfuckin shout out too my nigga's over at linuxgangsters.org, if any of you muthafucka's dont like that we can battle at #linuxteens werd is bond you know how we do
<LjL> !ops
<ubotu> Help! Keybuk, mdz, Amaranth, tritium, ajmitch, crimsun, ogra, CarlK, Seveas, Burgundavia, apokryphos, thoreauputic, nalioth, Madpilot, ompaul, rob, Hobbsee, imbrandon, DBO, LjL, elkbuntu, Mez or gnomefreak!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+b *!*@216.75.2.64]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<DBO> ubotu lies
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about lies - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<DBO> im no opper here
<hybrid> get him Seveas
<tonyyarusso> DBO: hehe
<tonyyarusso> seb128 went the entire second hour?  geez....
<Seveas> @reload Questios
<Seveas> @reload Questions
<Seveas> @dump
<Seveas> @dump
<Seveas> @dump
<nalioth> well, that was interesting
<nalioth> DBO: you're not?
<theCore> Is it just me or seb128's presentation looks like it been with PowerPoint...
<theCore> bullets, bullets, ... :P
<DBO> nalioth, nope
<DBO> -ChanServ- An access level of [10]  is required for [OP]  on #ubuntu-classroom
<Seveas> nalioth, DBO is not a member yet
<DBO> bingo
<nalioth> i see.
<theCore> nalioth, what does a K-line? block the user from FreeNode?
<Seveas> the weenie :p
<nalioth> theCore: a network ban, yes
<theCore> nalioth, ah ok, thanks
* DBO reminds Seveas that DBO was not the one playing with giant yellow balls...  most of the time
<Seveas> DBO, you're just jealous
<nalioth> someone got caught cloning, and their clone was doing 'bad things'
<Terminus> isn't k-line = ban on one server, g-line is ban across the network?
<Seveas> Terminus, not on freenode
<Terminus> oh... thanks for the info. =)
<DBO> Seveas, you know it
* Terminus waves at DBO 
<gnomefreak> DBO: arent you an ubuntu member
* DBO waves at Terminus 
<jono> where are the meetings logs for this channel?
<gnomefreak> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<Seveas> DBO, I'll just have to beat you at poker again
<DBO> gnomefreak, no Ive been reluctant to run
<gnomefreak> jono: ^^
<jono> thanks
<gnomefreak> DBO: ah
<DBO> gnomefreak, I dont think I'd get it right now
<ajmitch> DBO: because most of your work has been outside of ubuntu?
<gnomefreak> are we done for tonight?
<DBO> ajmitch, partly that
<gnomefreak> ajmitch: until feisty :)
<nalioth> gnomefreak: /topic
<nalioth> jono: /topic
<DBO> ajmitch, mostly because I look at guys like Ben Collins and realize im worthless =P
<nalioth> gnomefreak: !logs only points to general #ubuntu channels
<ajmitch> gnomefreak: even work upstream that is included, isn't really the direct contributions the CC look for
<ajmitch> DBO: then compare yourself to people like me :P
<DBO> Seveas, you can beat me at poker, but you can never win my heart! =P
<sittisal> hey
<gnomefreak> nalioth: so does the one in the /topic
<jono> where is it archived?
<jono> I only see the current feed
<gnomefreak> jono: give me a sec im looking
<ajmitch> hey jono
<jono> hi ajmitch
<sittisal> hello everybody, i have readed that today was a great session
<dsas> http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/%23ubuntu-classroom.log
<sittisal> but i can't find logs...
<sittisal> doh
<jono> ahhh its there
<dsas> I can't see the past logs on p.u.c either.
<jono> it just turned midnight
<jono> sittisal: :)
<dsas> oh, my eyes are bad.
<sittisal> ehy jono !
<gnomefreak> we need to ping fabbione about it. the !logs link should have it
<jono> brb folks
<sittisal> jono: i'm still waiting for jokosher in feisty... :-P
<jono> sittisal: its on its way :)
<YoussefAssad> I'm thinking that community commenting like with the GPLv3 drafts would be nice for the IRC logs
<ausimage> jono: HI I just am reading the logs for today.
<tonyyarusso> I'm beginning to sanify the logs by splitting them by session - first one is up, more in coming minutes.
<jono> ausimage: cool
<ausimage> jono I managed to bring the desktop meeting together
<gnomefreak> jono: good job today :)
<jono> tonyyarusso: hat would be really really useful
<jono> ausimage: :)
<jono> gnomefreak: thanks :)
<jono> blog about it, tell your friends
* jono giggles
<ausimage> I have only Q & A and the talk
<ajmitch> tonyyarusso: get them on the fridge, on planet, on sounder
<ausimage> Would you like me to have it posted and linked?
<ausimage> I think I need a proofer though
<ajmitch> do it on the wiki or in gobby
<theCore> *sigh*
<theCore> I love ctrl-alt-delete ...
<ausimage> ajmitch: how do you use gobby on the wiki?
* Terminus presses ctrl-alt-delete
<tonyyarusso> ajmitch: Sounder I can do - not on planet
<gnomefreak> i can do planet but im waiting for my hackergotchi :(\
<ajmitch> ausimage: you paste what you're editing into gobby - when finished, paste into the wiki
<dsas> if they're submitted to the fridge they got onto the planet presumably.
<ausimage> K the url?
<ajmitch> dsas: only if someone makes it happen
<gnomefreak> brb dinner
<ausimage> ajmitch how do I connect to the wiki with gobby?
<ajmitch> ausimage: you don't
<dsas> ajmitch: right, but if someone (tonyyarusso :)) submits it to the fridge when he does sounder, jono can always get to it if the other editors don't.
* dsas just volunteers everyone else ;)
<theCore> Is better to keep the logs intact, or to edit them so they look more like a web page?
<tonyyarusso> http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/ now has them all sorted by session.
<tonyyarusso> theCore: that's next, methinketh
<tonyyarusso> not sure
<tonyyarusso> theCore: This is one option - http://a7p.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/ubuntu-classroom-desktopsession-mo15-16.html
<nalioth> theCore: just clean the joins/parts/cruft
<theCore> nalioth, done
<patrick_> what is the time, UTC right now please?
<theCore> so I just paste on the wiki?
<tonyyarusso> patrick_: date -u
<patrick_> date -u
<gdg> hi
<tonyyarusso> patrick_: in a terminal
<YoussefAssad> erm.
<patrick_> yep ok
<gdg> I hear nothing
<YoussefAssad> /exec -o date -u
<nalioth> theCore: upload it to your server and link from the w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts (see the previous entries there)
<theCore> nalioth, ok, thanks
<theCore> nalioth, should I keep the time stamps?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: What all did you do?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I removed all the server messages
<nalioth> theCore: up to you, i usually put a note at the top saying what TZ it is in
<tonyyarusso> theCore: The now known as ones?  yeah, I've been getting to those too
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I already clean everything
<theCore> cleaned/
<YoussefAssad> I certainly hope you two know about sed
<theCore> YoussefAssad, well, sure
<theCore> YoussefAssad, but I used emacs' delete-non-matching instead
<YoussefAssad> who moderates these sessions? Perhaps they can help you log-strippers by using keywords to delimit sessions
<nalioth> YoussefAssad: the sessions don't seem to need moderation
<tonyyarusso> YoussefAssad: Ideally we'd get the topic changed exactly at the beginning of each, which would do the trick.  I was close today ;)
<YoussefAssad> tonyyarusso: ah, well that solves it
<theCore> I love using Linux "power tools"
<theCore> I automated everything, yay!
<jrib> yeah, like 'fortune', the most powerful tool
<LjL> !powertweak | or like this? :P
<ubotu> powertweak: Tool to tune system for optimal performance. In component universe, is extra. Version 0.99.5-12ubuntu1 (edgy), package size 6 kB, installed size 36 kB
<theCore> Condense soup, not books!
<theCore> /exec -o fortune
<theCore> You will attract cultured and artistic people to your home.
<theCore> all done: http://peadrop.com/openweek/
<jrib> theCore: looks good, do those have to get copied over to the wiki?
<ausimage> anyone that was around for the desktop meeting look over wiki.u.c/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_DesktopTeam. Give me feedback... corrections etc... I am trying write up the sessions this week. I now have packaging 101 to look at :)
<tonyyarusso> theCore: automated everything?  do tell!
<theCore> jrib, I will link the wiki to the page
<nalioth> i've sorted out the format a bit on w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I must admit, I used the split log you had
<theCore> teamwork!
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Whoohoo!
<jrib> hmm would it be better to try to unify the format a bit of all the existing transcripts and drop them on their own wiki page?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: can you do it as scriptydoohicky* ?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, sure
<nalioth> jrib: what are the impact possibilities on the wiki?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, although it's pretty trivial
<tonyyarusso> theCore: If that's the case, I can get the rest done uber quick - I have joins parts quits nickchanges ignored allready, so it's just a matter of splitting the sessions and away we go
<jrib> nalioth: something like ClassroomTranscripts/TOPIC in terms of organization.  Did you mean something else?
<nalioth> jrib: no, i was thinking of traffic
<jrib> nalioth: oh, then I have no clue
<tonyyarusso> theCore: any script usage info I need to know?
<jrib> but we could also just make the topic for past classes a link to its transcript and do away with a seperate transcript page
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I could wrap it up, for you if you want
<tonyyarusso> a quick scan through the source says no
<tonyyarusso> theCore: say what?
<nalioth> jrib: i think the current page is less confusing, but that is just me
<theCore> tonyyarusso, do you want me to write a script for cleaning the logs?
<nalioth> jrib: also, if anyone has hosting issues, i can host anything
<theCore> tonyyarusso, currently, I done everything in Emacs
<theCore> I'm doing/
<nalioth> and doing a fine job  :)
<tonyyarusso> theCore: I wouldn't think you'd need to, with my /ignores - anything you had to thin out other than joins parts quits nickchanges?
<nalioth> tonyyarusso: trolls
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: right
<YoussefAssad> erm.
<nalioth> tonyyarusso: questions about "where are we eating for lunch?"
<tonyyarusso> Can you script troll removal?
<nalioth> and other cruft that is non related
<jrib> s/[:troll:] //
<YoussefAssad> Is it even right to remove trolls? Trolls are a matter of judgment.
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Did you take out things like that?
<nalioth> YoussefAssad: um, let's not go there and say "yes, it's right."
<YoussefAssad> One man's troll is another man's poor english getting misconstrued
<nalioth> YoussefAssad: no, there are some that are absolutely unmistakable in their intent
<jrib> nalioth: hosting issues aside, we should consider having some kind of common format for all the logs
<YoussefAssad> nalioth: hey, it's your distro and it's your community. Knock yourself out
<tonyyarusso> He didn't....
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I just removed everything that didn't start with <.*>
<nalioth> jrib: txt is the most useful (can be downloaded and converted to almost any format)
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I haven't thoroughly checked the logs yet
<tonyyarusso> Bah, ignore me
<jrib> nalioth: agreed
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Ah, I see.  I grabbed the crap out of mine already.
<tonyyarusso> (Or tried to - only one set of eyes)
<tobias> hello all!:D
<tobias> am I late for class?
<tonyyarusso> tobias: very....
<nalioth> tobias: you are early for tomorrows class :)
<tonyyarusso> tobias: The times are UTC
<jrib> no, your very early for the next one :)
<tobias> :D
<tonyyarusso> ^^ both better answers
<tobias> when does it begin?
<tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<nalioth> tobias: wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<tonyyarusso> ^^schedule
<tobias> hehe :)
<tobias> I dont understand utc
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: there now?
<tobias> just how many hours aprox u think?
<tonyyarusso> tobias: 'date -u' on a terminal will tell you, or use the page linked in the topic
<tobias> aha
<nalioth> tonyyarusso: in your console, type "date --utc" for the current time in UTC
<tobias> thanks!
* tonyyarusso smells bad tab-complete
<chaddy> bwahem
<tobias> wooo
<jrib> who wants to use the linux power tools to link all the utc times in the wuc/Classroom chart?
<tobias> its two hours til my school day begins
<tobias> unfortunately I will be sleeping in two hours probably
<tobias> :( sad
<tobias> maybe I can log it and look at it later
<jrib> logs should be up eventually as well
<nalioth> tonyyarusso: you know typing 3 characters + tab, is just SOOOOOO hard
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: Yeah seriously.
<__lynX> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: (You should have seen how many times I tried to deop tonyyserver before I figured it out.)
<nalioth> __lynX: i suspect you want wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
<__lynX> Yup. Thanks :)
<theCore> does it looks good enough: http://peadrop.com/openweek/
<Terminus> theCore: looks good. =)
<theCore> Terminus, thanks
<nalioth> yep looks good
<nalioth> might want to put dates and such
<jrib> Nov. 27 seems to have to classes at the same time, is this right?
<jrib> at 20:00utc
<Sionide> jrib, doesn't make much odds seeing as that was 5 hours ago
<jrib> Sionide: heh very good point :)
<jrib> although the openweek page claims a sane time, so I'll update it
<jrib> if someone wants to, they can quickly check that my script didn't mess up and the the utc conversion links are all accurate
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Hrm, using * on the input for the script didn't seem happy
<theCore> use .*
<theCore> is it better now? http://peadrop.com/openweek/
<StarScream>  /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<StarScream> oops
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Aaah.
<tonyyarusso> theCore: How'd you do that page?  Manually?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, yeah
<tonyyarusso> 'k
<theCore> should I link the my page now?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Prolly; I'll add mind too in a sec.
<tonyyarusso> theCore: I'm fiddling with some cron stuff to try to automate as much as possible
<theCore> tonyyarusso, ping me when you're done
<tonyyarusso> theCore: .* isn't doing it for me
<theCore> what are you using
<theCore> ?
<theCore> sed?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: For the irc2html script, the file to take as input
<theCore> tonyyarusso, ah
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Did you do each file individually?
<theCore> find -name '.log' | while read file; do irc2html $file; done
<theCore> wait
<theCore> there's a ; after do
<bob> tomorrow i may want to attend Ask Mark Shuttleworth, how will that chatroom be designated?
<tonyyarusso> bob: It's here, afaik
<nalioth> yep, it'll happen right here, bob
<chaddy> if I understand it correctly he'll be in here answering questions while we're asking questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, bob
<bob> i was just in the #kubuntu chatroom, i never saw Brandon Holtsclaw
<tonyyarusso> bob: That was also here
<bob> oh
<bob> here, as in #ubuntu-classroom?
<tonyyarusso> correct
<tonyyarusso> theCore: How do I modify find if I want the script to live in the parent directory of the files?
<theCore> find openweek/ -name ...
<nalioth> bob: you'll want to come when class is starting and hang out in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and ask your questions there
<tonyyarusso> theCore: And should I replace irc2html with the full path to the script, or can I intelligently source it somehow?
<theCore> it should be the full path
<theCore> you could use a VAR though
<theCore> or you add it in your PATH
<theCore> CONV="path/to/irc2html"
<theCore> or
<theCore> PATH="path/to/:$PATH"
<tonyyarusso> Bah, I'll just use the full one.
<nalioth> what are we adding?
* nalioth likes playing with aliases
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: automation of pretty script posting, even before we get around to manually removing trolls, etc.
<nalioth> ah
<theCore> tonyyarusso, do you use sed for preprocessing?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: I don't have an preprocessing other than irssi /ignores
<nalioth> and /ignore doesn't keep it out of the logs
<nalioth> just your display
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: Are you quite sure about that?
<nalioth> tonyyarusso: yep
<bob> any advice on whether to use Automatix or EasyUbuntu
* diocles checks logs.
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: I seem to be successfully keeping joins parts quits out of the logs, but not nickchanges.  Must be a separate config.
<nalioth> bob: automatix is known to botch up systems, and with every new version, continues the tradition
<diocles> Mine are pretty clear. I used /ignore #ubuntu-classroom ALL -PUBLIC -ACTIONS
<theCore> tonyyarusso, the trick would be to check for people that have been banned, then remove all the lines containing their nicks
<bob> no complaints about EasyUbuntu?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: That could do the trick
<nalioth> bob: easyubuntu fails gracefully
<bob> what. it's got and Undo button or something?
<bob> what exactly does automatix typically munge, cuz i had a little trouble with the updater after i used Automatix
<bob> OTOH, i wouldnt be able to hear any streaming audio if it weren't for automatix
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Now do you want to help me get a script to delete banned users, or should I stumble blindly around bash?
<theCore> I could do that
<nalioth> bob: wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats   shows you how to listen to streaming audio and anything else (and won't botch your system)
<tonyyarusso> theCore: That would take care of things pretty well.  I added a sed that I think will grab the nickchanges, and beyond that all we have is things like "Thanks!", it might not kill us to leave those anyway, at least for a few hours until getting back from class.
<bob> at the end of an Automatix session, there is a dialog about restoring some settings with a warning, what is that about?
<nalioth> bob: ask in #automatix
<bob> there is an unofficial Ubuntu Starter Guide at easylinux.info, how come you dont have it?
<bob> or, why is it unofficial?
<nalioth> because it's not directly provided by Ubuntu
<bob> do you know if it's reliable?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: I think I'm done on the wiki at least
<nalioth> bob: it is unoffical.  if you want something reliable, help.ubuntu.com  and wiki.ubuntu.com have helped hundreds of thousands of times
<bob> k, thanks
<theCore> tonyyarusso, could you send me a log file that has trolls in it?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Umm....I'll see.
<tonyyarusso> theCore: The full (non-sessionified) one still has them - http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/%23ubuntu-classroom.log
<theCore> at which line?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Don't know the line #, but timestamp 11:04
<theCore> or what is the troll's nick?
<theCore> ok
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Dannilion
<lastnode> lol
<tonyyarusso> theCore: How goes it?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, almost done
<tonyyarusso> cool
<theCore> cool it's working
<theCore> well almost
<fyusy> hello
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I got it
<nalioth> hi fyusy
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Choose your transfer method.  What's almost mean?
<fyusy> I'm in Australia, sorry must of missed the training sessions
<nalioth> fyusy: logs are going up at wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
<theCore> tonyyarusso, it was leaving the \n
<tomasz> I'm missing em too -- also from Australia. Timezone difference is not as mean as some of the people last night though ;)
<fyusy> thank you
<fyusy> I've moved from Fedora
<tonyyarusso> theCore: so how should I get it from you?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I will post it on my server
<tonyyarusso> ok
<theCore> look good
<theCore> hmm, I need to fix the one of my regex
<tonyyarusso> theCore: What's your URL again?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, http://peadrop.com/files/remove-troll.txt
<theCore> that's what I got
<theCore> it's not done yet
<theCore> the banned regex go awry
<tonyyarusso> All right.  Just ping me with changelog I guess
<theCore> goes/
<theCore> yay
<theCore> tonyyarusso, it's done
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Cool
<tonyyarusso> Now I just have to make my crontab happy
<theCore> tonyyarusso, be careful
<theCore> because jono has been kicked, its strip jono
<tonyyarusso> oh bother...
<nalioth> trollbuster, lol
<theCore> it strips/
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Any way around that?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, comment the kicked line
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Manually ahead of time you mean?
<theCore> ?
<tonyyarusso> commenting the kicked line
<tonyyarusso> theCore: So it ignores any line in the log prefaced by #?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, oh, my mistake
<theCore> reload
<jcsmith> hey guys, is it possible to download the raw text irc logs or just the htmlized version in the link from the topic? i asked in the classroom-chat chan, but didn't get a response
<tonyyarusso> theCore: And now it?  (Don't read code, sorry)
<tonyyarusso> jcsmith: We have both - which link did you check?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, it should be working
<tonyyarusso> theCore: What do I have to do to not remove jono?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, nothing
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Amazing - how's that work?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, did you downloaded my new version?
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Yes
<jcsmith> tonyyarusso: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-2006-11-27.html
<theCore> jcsmith, http://peadrop.com/openweek
<tonyyarusso> jcsmith: Or http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<tonyyarusso> fabbione is htmling them?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, yes
<fabbione> tonyyarusso: a script does...
<tonyyarusso> fabbione: Right.
<jcsmith> beautiful, thanks guys
<tonyyarusso> Scripting being what we're working on now ;)
<tonyyarusso> theCore: How does the new version avoid removing the presenter?
<theCore> tonyyarusso, I commented the line that remove kicked peoples
<theCore> alternatively, I could write a white list
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Oh, I see.  So if we get anyone kicked without a ban it will do nothing
<theCore> tonyyarusso, yep
<tonyyarusso> theCore: Best case would be to whitelist anybody that ever had ops, was in the access list, or was a presenter, but.....
<tonyyarusso> Good enough for now.
<theCore> to use it just chmod +x and rename it to something better
<La_PaRCa> are we in session?
<deedubb> Which functionality of Gnome is not in Xcfe?
<theCore> I can't believe it took me an hour for that
<nalioth> deedubb: try askin in #xubuntu
<nalioth> theCore: at this rate, you'll be ready for class just in time  :P
<idn> later
<theCore> hehe, but I got real classes tomorrow
<theCore> so, I better go to bed
<theCore> see ya all
<nalioth> night, theCore
<nalioth> muchas gracias
<tonyyarusso> Good night theCore, thanks
<atoponce> so, i think this was fairly successful...
<Pichucos> hi all :)
<x-Na> morning
<Pichucos> hehe i have some question
<Pichucos> 1 any speak spanish?
<tonyyarusso> holy shamoly this script is verbose when it finally runs
<tonyyarusso> theCore_: Forgot a * in the find -name pattern it seems
<nalioth> Pichucos: how can we help you?
<marky> Hi
<goray123> ls
<macchia> hello
<Seveas> hi macchia
<v4m21> where is mark shuttleworth ?
<arjun> debarshi, Im here
<snail> arjun: welcome
<arjun> snail, hi!
<debarshi> snail: Hi.
<arjun> snail, frankly, I dont know why im here. yet.
<arjun> :
<arjun> :)
<snail> arjun: you're here to learn about ubuntu?
<debarshi> arjun: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<arjun> snail, sure!
<arjun> debarshi, lemme check that.
* snail points out that this channel is not officially open for business at the moment, but we'll do our best
<rakesh> join #glug-nith
<arjun> its about 11:00 UTC, right?
<serzholino> 11:16:27
<arjun> serzholino, hmm.. 15 minutes off the mark. ;)
<arjun> snail, i'll hold on till 2030 IST (= 1500 UTC)
<Terminus> hmmm... class starts in 3.5 hours right?
<walcky> Terminus : 2.5 hours
<Terminus> i thought it 1500 UTC?
<Terminus> s/it/it starts/
<fabbione> 3.5 hours
<fabbione> see /topic
<Terminus> meh... i'm probably gonna be asleep when class starts anyway.
<neuro_> we could slap you
<davmor2> neuro_ cold water is more effective
<neuro_> slapping is more fun
<ulinskie> hey Terminus
<davmor2> water lasts longer an is more embarrassing if they have to go out :)
<Terminus> heya ulinskie =)
<Terminus> ulinskie: i feel sleepy already. i think i'm just gonna log the stuff here. but theCore is also fixing up the logs.
<Terminus> brb. dinner time. =)
<GSF> hello
<GSF> does anyone have logs in plaintext format of yesterday?
<davmor2> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts as well
<GSF> those are in HTML
<fabbione> GSF: i might enable plain text sometimes next week.. it's just very low priority for me
<fabbione> GSF: that will include also the backlog..
<fabbione> not just from...
<GSF> alright.
<GSF> there's so many people here, I'm wondering if anyone logged yesterday's lectures
<Seveas> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<GSF> ..
<Seveas> ;)
<fabbione> Seveas: read above
<Seveas> GSF, seveas.ubuntulinux.nl/~dennis/ubuntu-classroom.log
<Seveas> (aothough that'sfar more than just yesterday)
<GSF> thanks a bunch :)
<Terminus> Seveas: what about theCore's transcripts? =)
<Seveas> Terminus, I don't know where those are :)
<Terminus> Seveas: i have the url. i'll pm them to you.
<Terminus> dunno if he would appreciate the load on his server if i announce it. =D
<Seveas> heh
* ktogias is away: Away
<whowe> who
<whowe> ?
<cayenne> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<cayenne> quit
<whowe> Anyone else here having errors trying to upload your pgp key?
<domenico> :-D
<MidNight_SunRay> whowe, i have errors everywhere when i try to sign a file.. :D
<whowe> I just can't get my keys to upload, says keyserver error
* neuro_ points at #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sbaush> is there nobody?
<tonyyarusso> sbaush: There's folks around, still about 45 minutes before things get going.
<atoponce> there is anybody
<apokryphos> !seen anybody
<ubotu> I haven't seen anybody recently
<sbaush> thanks
<tonyyarusso> Oh ubotu..
<tonyyarusso> Time for some tests.
<cayenne> hi folks, newbie here!
<_MMA_> Hello cayenne.
<apokryphos> welcome, cayenne
<tonyyarusso> Hey folks - throw some sample questions in -chat to test the bot
<nooone> Hello.
<Jucato> tonyyarusso: in what format? QUESTION: <question>?
<Nop> does it work ?
<gnomefreak> yes
<gnomefreak> Jucato: yes
<Nop> cool
<tonyyarusso> Jucato: Yep, just preface anything w/ Question:, but in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Jucato> hi gnomefreak :)
<gnomefreak> hi Jucato
<sbaush> QUESTION: like this?
<nooone> QUESTION: Why in Ubuntu are so many bugs and they are not going to be removed?
<tonyyarusso> Okay, now, without ops:
<cayenne> I'm waiting for the calls session. I've not used this (Xchat) before. Will the class be presented as text - or is there an audio option somewhere?
<tonyyarusso> @next
<gnomefreak> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat people
<Jucato> sbaush, nooone, in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<tonyyarusso> Good, no response.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> Seveas asked: test!
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> andrew asked: How's the weather?
<tonyyarusso> Kinda rainy andrew ;)
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> _MMA_ asked: Why is Ubuntu so awesome?
<Jucato> ah cool
<_MMA_> :)
<tonyyarusso> _MMA_: Because of the awesome community jono will tell us about _MMA_
<tonyyarusso> One more-
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> Nop asked: sample question?
<cayenne> Sunny n warm. Too warm for Nov in UK
<apokryphos> tonyyarusso: easy way to remove/list questions?
<andrew> do a few more
<andrew> clear the que!
<Nop> Ubugtu, jawohl! 8)
<tonyyarusso> apokryphos: I need to see how one part of that works - a sec
<jono> how are we dealing with questions then?
<Pavka[LT] > ((((:
<tonyyarusso> jono: Watch this:
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> juliux asked: Is the bot working?
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> GSF asked: what up?
<juliux> tonyyarusso, cool! great work;)
<tonyyarusso> juliux: Not my work - thank Seveas
<juliux> tonyyarusso, ok
<juliux> thanks Seveas ;)
<tonyyarusso> @dump
<Jucato> Seveas is the bot master :)
<tonyyarusso> Ooooh
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<gnomefreak> @next
<Ubugtu> irvin asked: how long will it take to grow me a beard like jono?
<gnomefreak> cool
<gnomefreak> it works
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<Jucato> lol
<tonyyarusso> @dump
<tonyyarusso> god
<tonyyarusso> *good
<lotusleaf> @jeffk Seveas fetch me a pretty pony
<Ubugtu> SEVEAS FETCH ME A PRETTY PONY
<tomasss> @jeffk emmm?
<Ubugtu> emmm? ahhahhahhahhlol!~!~
<Seveas> hmm wth
<tomasss> "ahhahhahhahhlol!~!~" - wtf? (((:
<Seveas> @unload Filter
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: What was that?
<tonyyarusso> cleared...
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> andrew asked: How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
<tonyyarusso> Or not
<tonyyarusso> @clear
<tomasss> @next
<zul> hmm?
<tomasss> ?
<tonyyarusso> @next
<Ubugtu> No more questions
<tonyyarusso> okay
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<ubulinu> Welcome everybody! Yeah... already 268 members here...
<Lesley> Hi all
<lotusleaf> "someone's in my fruit cellar, someone with a fresh soul"
<willi> +i
<willi> ^X
<ypsila> good afternoon
<kalon33> Hello ubulinu !
<tomasss> ypsila, good evening.
<apex`> y0 niggaz ;-)
<tonyyarusso> apex`: Watch the language please.
<lotusleaf> *<:O) I want an oompa loompa!
<apokryphos> ubotu: language
<apex`> mhm :/
<ubotu> Please watch your language and keep this channel family friendly.
<jono> billycina, woo!
<cayenne>  /join #ubuntu-uk
* GazzaK throws sweetie wrappers at jono, from the back
<jono> :P
* Seeker` throws GazzaK at jono, from the back
<GazzaK> weeeeeeeee, splat
<gnomefreak> !openweek
<ubotu> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<popey>   \o/
<popey>  ( ).oO( Parp! )
<popey>  |'|
<popey>  eek!
<marky> Hi
<gnomefreak> !no openweek is Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<ubotu> I'll remember that, gnomefreak
<LjL> !no openweek is <reply> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<ubotu> I'll remember that, LjL
<loudspeake1> cool
<n8k99> ooh can anyone program responses or just channel gods?
<x-Na> evening
<apokryphos> n8k99: only bot editors. For everyone else the suggestion is posted to us
<apokryphos> then we accept or deny it
<urbnsr_> .
<LjL> or argue for 30 minutes about whether it should be accepted or denied
<Seveas> heh
<n8k99> i see, that's still pretty neat
<n8k99> LjL everybody needs a cause
<Seeker`> lo popey
<popey> moo
* neuro_ tells x-chat to hide join/part messages for this channel
<neuro_> i have a feeling it's going to get busy :)
<popey> ditto for irssi
* Cillian takes a hint from neuro :)
* neuro_ bows
* popey ties
* GazzaK trips popey up
<rrittenhouse> gee i wish gaim had that feature ;)
<johny900> I want Beryl
<daxelrod> rrittenhouse: Gaim can turn off join/leave messages for all chats.
<marky> says Hi
<kalon33> yes rrittenhouse it's a bit tiring to see all that !:p
<davmor2> johny900 well ask nicely
<Cillian> Damn irssi ignore syntax is messed up...
<jono> right
<jono> I think we are nearly there
<jono> a few more mins
<daxelrod> rrittenhouse: The plugin "Extended Prefs" will do it. http://gaim.sourceforge.net/plugins.php
<jono> if you are new to the Ubuntu Open Week - please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules for the simple rules
<tonyyarusso> Okay - that's everyone's cue to get your last bits of silliness out - as soon as we hit 1500 we're going to need it fairly quiet and orderly-like so he can talk.  :)
<jono> hehe
<jono> ORDER!
<jono> :P
* popey spots some "usual suspects"
* daxelrod gags self
* antihec coughs.
<jono> daxelrod, not in public please :P
<Seveas> jono, I'll have the chicken salad
<lotusleaf> "don't blame me, I voted Nader" ok that's good
* Seeker` blames popey for everything
<popey> \o/
<jono> Seveas, shut your trap
<jono> :)
* neuro_ blames jono for popey
<lotusleaf> last word
<popey> Father!?
<neuro_> I am your.
<atoponce> i can hardly hear myself think
<Cillian> :o
<neuro_> +m it baby!
<Cillian> neuro_++
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<jono> right lets go
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+mz]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Jon]  by ChanServ
<Seveas> err
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Jon]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jono]  by ChanServ
<jono> Seveas, don't moderate the room
<jono> we will be fine
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by Seveas
<popey> Mwahahahahahahahaaa
<neuro_> Seveas == muppet
<neuro_> jono, continue
<neuro_> :)
<jono> as usual folks, ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix it with QUESTION so I can pick it out
<Cillian>  /ignore #ubuntuclassroom QUITS
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<neuro_> Cillian: shhh
<jono> hi all, welcome to the session
<jono> the aim of this session is to talk about how exactly someone becomes a 'member' in the Ubuntu community - this will involve a discussion of what membership involves, the process of becoming a member, and other things to think about
<popey>  /ignore Cillian
<eboogie> hey jono.  glad to "meet" you
<jono> I will talk for a while with the main tuition, and then I will open the session up to Q+A as that is where I think much of the real value in these sessions comes from
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Becoming an Ubuntu Member
<jono> eboogie, :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<jono> OK, lets go
<jono> with any large free software project, it is always difficult to identify those contributors who are very good and those who are not so good - this is not about technical prowess, but about reliable, sustained contributions to the project in whatever team - art, marketing, packaging, MOTU etc
<jono> to help try and disguinish this, we have the concept of 'ubuntu members'
<jono> an ubuntu member is someone who has made a "sustained and substantial contribution" to the project, and we like to identify who these users are so we can provide these members with additional access to resources and have confidence in a set of established contributors
<jono> ANYONE is welcome to be an ubuntu member - you don't need to work for Canonical, you don't need to be hugely technical, and you don't need to call your first-born child 'jono'
<eboogie> nice...
<jono> although the last bit would be cool :)
<Alex_Palex> lol
<n8k99> hmm...
<Nop> ))
<popey> *shudder*
* jono slaps popey :)
<jono> so the first question is, do you meet the criteria for a member? do you believe you have made enough a contribution to Ubuntu that it could be seen as a substantial and sustained contribution?
<n8k99> are we supposed to answer that here?
<gnomefreak> n8k99: no
<jono> <Casanova> QUESTION: How do you differentiate between contribution to ubuntu and contribution to upstream packages
<gnomefreak> good question
<jono> Casanova, contribution to ubuntu is contributing to direct components of the ubuntu system (such as marketing, art, translations, docs) or packaging upstream applications for ubuntu
<Casanova> so fixing bugs in launchpad doesnt count?
<jsgotangco> it does
<gnomefreak> Casanova: it does
<jono> for those who don't know what upstream is - upstream are the applications developed by the people who make the apps - gimp, xchat, firefox, openoffice are all upstread
<jono> Casanova, yes it does
<jono> Casanova, basically, if you contribute to making ubuntu itself better, you are an ubuntu contributor
<jono> if you write fixes for openoffice that live upstream, then you are part of their project
<n8k99> does representing/speaking about Ubuntu at festivals count?
<Casanova> hehe just to be nit picky.. If i contribute to the main line direct it doesnt count. If i contribute through launchpad it does?
<jsgotangco> it does
<jono> ok I am gonna get through my notes and then hit the questions
<jsgotangco> its called advocacy
<Seveas> n8k99, questions in -chat please
<jono> you can judge this by determining (a) the amount of time you have spent with the project (naturally six months with the project is a lot more 'sustained' than six minutes) and (b) how much you have contributed to the project
<gnomefreak> ask the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and append them with QUESTION: please
<jono> thanks gnomefreak
<jono> when figuring out (b), think about what you have done - have you contributed packages, documented things, translated, performed advocacy, built up teams, performed marketing, helped support users? if you have contributed a lot of time to bettered ubuntu it all helps
<SimonAnibal> prepend
<gnomefreak> prepend*
<jono> if you feel you have performed this "sustained and substantial contribution", becoming an ubuntu member provides access to additional privileges such as an ubuntu.com email address, IRC cloaks, addition to planet ubuntu and importantly identifies you as a key member of the community
<jono> if you want to become a member, you need to go before the Community Council (CC) where they will vote on your application for membership
<jono> the CC regularly hold IRC meetings where they decide on parts of the community, including ubuntu membership
<jono> to do this we recommend that you first prepare a wiki page on wiki.ubuntu.com with a list of your contributions to the ubuntu project - we recommend you reference any online resources such as mailing list archvies, websites that back up this evidence
<amachu> hi guys
<Seveas> amachu, shhhhhh
<jono> this page name should be your name with no spaces and capital letters for the words - so mine would be wiki.ubuntu.com/JonoBacon
<jono> it is important you spend some time getting this page in shape - make sure it is clear, lists all of the key contributions, and we would also recommend having a section called "Future Work" that outlines things you plan on doing
<Chris____> I am beginning college in January as a Computer Science major. Would contributing to the project be possible after I have a few programming classes?
<jono> also list on the page where you can be contacted (email, IRC), which mailing lists you read and which IRC channels you frequent in
<Seveas> Chris____, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> when the page is ready, head to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda and add your name to the agenda - this will mark you down as wanted to be considered for membership at the next CC meeting
<jono> with you added to the CC agenda, it is important you turn up to the CC meeting
<Seveas> jono: that procedure is being changed, remember :)
<jono> Seveas, yep, but not yet :P
<jono> in that meeting, summarise the work you have done and highlight why you believe you should be considered for membership
<jono> it is also recommended that you bring along some people to support your case - people you have worked alongside in the community, people who can demonstrate your work - well respected community members are a wise choice here
<jono> (oh and a quick note, I get daily requests to support someone for membership in the CC meeting, I can;t always do it unfortunatly due to my schedule)(
<Seveas> @dump
<jono> when you are at the CC and have put your case foward, the members of the CC will decide upon it
<jono> if you are unsuccessful they will give you the reason why, and it is recommended you go away and try to fix the things they mention
<jono> if you are successful you will be added to the ubuntu members list in Launchpad and can officially be smug in front of your friends
<jonh_wendell> :)
<jono> that is the approximate process for becoming a member
<jono> now, I want to add some tips:
<jono>  * REALLY, REALLY don't put yourself forward for membership unless you have contributed a substantial amount to Ubuntu - if you are unsure if you have, ask an existing member or ask in #ubuntu-devel or your team
<jono>  * you really should attend the CC meeting, non-attendance is not a good thing in your favour - attend the meeting where you are considered
<jono> * ubuntu membership is not a cast iron process, and we are flexible in how it works-  we are keen to identify people who are good, reliable and will stick around - sometimes this is abundantly clear, sometimes less so
<jono> * get plenty of feedback from existing ubuntu members before you add yourself to the CC agenda to be considered - have people look over the wiki page for yourself and check if anything is missing
<jono> right, gonna open it up to Q+A  - let me go through some of the existing questions first
<Seveas> jono, type @dump in here
<jono> what does that do?
<Seveas> that'll make ubugtu send you all the questions
<jono> ahhh cool
<Seveas> (nice summary!)
<jono> @dump
<gnomefreak> lol
<pointwood> @dump
<apokryphos> only for ops
<pointwood> oh :)
<abhish3k> how to change root passward
<jono> jees, it dumps it in my main window
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<apokryphos> abhish3k: please head to #ubuntu for support
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
<gnomefreak> @dump
<Seveas> @disable dump
<jono> stop it! :)
<Seveas> (please don't abuse it, you'll make ubugtu flood)
<jono> ok, not doing that again
<Seveas> well, there we go
<LjL> too little, too late
<jono>  QUESTION: is advocation enough, or should i be doing more?
<gnomefreak> it only dumps once
<jono> <atoponce> QUESTION: is advocation enough, or should i be doing more?
<jono> advocacy is a perfectly legitimate form of contribution, if do a lot of it and it is good, do apply
<jono> <snail> QUESTION: is there a requirement to participate in the GPG web of trust, as there is for debian?
<Seveas> jono, may I add something?
<jono> Seveas, go on
<Seveas> advocacy is fine, but make sure it's traceable
<jono> snail, we do ask for a GPG key, but it is mainly used for signing packages
<gnomefreak> and the coc
<jono> <Cillian> QUESTION: How much counts as significant?
<Seveas> we have one unfortunate member candidate who is advocating a lot, but it's all undocumented/untracable
<jono> Cillian, good question - and there is no single answer - we are looking for contributions beyond a quick fling interest with ubuntu that are sustained over a period of time
<gnomonic> REQUEST: could you take one question at a time?
<gnomefreak> gnomonic: we are
<jono> Cillian, we are keen to identify people who have a prolonged interest in the project
<jono> <neuro_> QUESTION: It's obviously a discussion all in itself, but how easy is it to get into packaging for Ubuntu?  ISTR Debian is quite strict about how it admits packagers, for example.
<jono> neuro_, fairly simple, not sure how it compares to Debian - I recommend joining the Packaging 101 and MOTU sessions this week
<popey> smooth
<whowe> QUESTION: What if we are starting a FOSS consulting company that's main platform in Ubuntu, would that count?
<jono> <kalon33> QUESTION : Do you take care of the karma to do this appreciation ?
<Seveas> whowe, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<gnomefreak> whowe: ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<Amaranth> neuro_: Contribute some packages, get member status, apply for MOTU status, then you can upload packages on your own
<jono> kalon33, do you mean, do we consider karma when evaluating a user?
<kalon33> yes, Is it a part of your evaluation, and what part ?
<jono> I think it may be considered, I am not on the CC, so I am not sure - but experience is the main thing
<jono> <GazzaK> QUESTION: Can we vote/put forward people for membership, ie like a reference?
<Seveas> (jono: it's looked at as an activity measure)
<jono> Seveas, sure, but it is an inexact science
<jono> GazzaK, the person you recommend needs to put themselves forward for membership - you should encourage them to do so, and support them in their CC meeting
<jono> <gnomefreak> QUESTION: jono isnt the wiki on the person a must not really recommended?
<jono> gnomefreak, sorry yes, you need to provide a wiki page for your membership application
<jono> <daxelrod> QUESTION: What do you mean by "name" for the wiki page? Full name? Username?
<gnomefreak> jono: that was more for them ;)
<azeem> w 84
<jono> daxelrod, like wiki.ubuntu.com/JonoBacon for me or wiki.ubuntu.com/StupidIdiot for Seveas :P
* jono giggles
<gnomefreak> lol
* popey clicks
<jono> <Nop> QUESTION: shit, so much bureaucracy! if i have an upstream application of mine -- how can i add it to ubuntu repository in few minutes ?
<Seveas> jono, that's MisterStupidIdiot for you!
<gnomefreak> few minutes :(
<jono> Nop, hehe, its not bureaucracy as you don;t have to be a member, and although it could be easier (which we are working on)  its a fairly simple process - write an application and show up to the CC meeting - as for upstream app in Ubuntu, talk to the packagers
<jono> <jonh_wendell> QUESTION: when will happen next CC?
<jono> jonh_wendell, we are hoping to have one this week or next week - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for the next date
<jono> CC meetings are also added to the fridge calendar
<jono> <popey> QUESTION: In what way is the procedure for becoming an ubuntu member changing?
<Seveas> or you can look in the topic of #ubuntu-meeting
<apokryphos> just /cs info #ubuntu-meeting
<jono> popey, we are looking at ways to scale up the process - right now the CC is bottlenecking with requests - we are considering team councils (such as a forums or kubuntu council) having the power to approve ubuntu membership
<jono> this will help the process scale
<jono> nothing is cast in stone yet
<popey> ok, any timescale on when that will happen?
<jono> popey, no idea
<jono> popey, when its ready :)
<jono> <Jucato> QUESTION: does Ubuntu Membership also cover Kubuntu and Xubuntu? Or is there a separate Kubuntu Membership, separate CC, and a separate process? (there's a kubuntu-members team in Launchpad)
<popey> i.e. can we sneak under the radar before it gets hard to be a member ;)
<Seveas> popey, it will get easier, not harder
<Amaranth> popey: The idea is to make it easier
<jono> popey, it won't get harder - it will just get more scalable
<popey> ok, thanks guys
<jono> Seveas, it won't be easier to be a member, it will be easier to get your application looked at
<jono> <Jucato> QUESTION: does Ubuntu Membership also cover Kubuntu and Xubuntu? Or is there a separate Kubuntu Membership, separate CC, and a separate process? (there's a kubuntu-members team in Launchpad)
<jono> Jucato, good question, I am not 100% sure, I think Ubuntu membership is for all of us
<jono> <popey> QUESTION: What proportion of people fail to get ubuntu membership?
<jono> popey, most people get membership
<gnomefreak> jono: may i?
<jono> gnomefreak, sure
<popey> thanks
<Chris____> QUESTION: would people who contributed to the Linux kernel, not neccesarily Ubuntu, be good people to support your application?
<Amaranth> Jucato: Ubuntu membership covers every part of Ubuntu. That includes Kubuntu, Xubuntu, the forums, etc.
<Seveas> Chris____, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat!
<jono> Amaranth, ahh thats what I figured, cool :)
<jono> <laharrin_> QUESTION: have i missed the "Becoming an Ubuntu Member" session?
<apokryphos> Kubuntu can choose their own members
<Jucato> um so what is the kubuntu-members team for?
<jono> laharrin_, nope this is it, want me to draw a diagram? :P
<apokryphos> (which are automatically ubuntu members)
<juliux> edubuntu also;)
<Chris____> Seveas, I see several other people asking question!
<gnomefreak> juliux: ubuntu-membership is ubuntu and kubuntu xubuntu related. as a member of one you have say in all meetings (not sure about edubuntu) but to get email for kubuntu.org you have to apply for kubuntu memebership as well
<gnomefreak> oops
<gnomefreak> Jucato: that was yours
<Seveas> Chris____, look better and don't interrupt the chat please
<Jucato> :)
<jono> Chris____, take it to #ubuntu-classroom-chat!!
<apokryphos> it's just easier for a Kubuntu council to see activity in Kubuntu, and hence make decisions on members when their work involves Kubuntu
<jono> <laharrin_> QUESTION: well then, am i in the right place?
<jono> laharrin_, yes
<jono> <popey> QUESTION: have I missed laharrin_ asing if he missed the "Becoming an Ubuntu Member" session?
<jono> no
<jono> :P
<Amaranth> Jucato: We're setting up subcouncils for the different groups to reduce the bottleneck on the Community Council. Becoming a member of one of those groups automatically makes you an Ubuntu member.
<jono> <LjL> QUESTION: What privileges would becoming an Ubuntu Member bring, besides the ones you mentioned - email, cloak, Planet Ubuntu access? I mean privileges that directly impact your ability to contribute, rather than "prestige" privileges.
<gnomefreak> Amaranth: we are? cool ;)
<popey> :)
<looksaus> damn, I really have to go...
<looksaus> sorry folks
<looksaus> hope we get a summary posted to the locoteams mailing list
<nalioth> looksaus: wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
<jono> LjL, there are no major perks for contribution - just these additional benefits, and for packagers being an Ubuntu Member *may* provide access to Personal Package Archives but I don't know about it
<jono> looksaus, shhh!
<looksaus> :)
<jono> <Yawner> QUESTION: Can regular users attend the CC sessions? Or is this reserved?
<jono> looksaus, :)
<jono> Yawner, all are welcome to CC sessions :)
<Yawner> ta :)
<jono> <rrittenhouse> QUESTION: Could you tell us how we can contribute?
<apokryphos> ubotu: contribute
<ubotu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<jono> rrittenhouse, there are lots of ways of contributing, look at your skills and think of what you would like to do, and then join one of the teams
<jono> rrittenhouse, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<apokryphos> as the page notes: artwork, wiki-editing, documentation, packaging, irc support etc
<gnomefreak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto will also help
<jono> could people quieten down a little bit
<jono> I want to get through these fairly quickly :)
<jono> so everyone gets their question answered - make comments in -chat :)
<jono> thanks
<jono> <antihec> QUESTION: whom does the Community Council consist of? how is it formed?
<jono> antihec, it consists of core community members who are nominated and voted on - right now it consists of Benjamin Hill, Mark Shuttleworth, Colin Watson, and James Troup
<jono> <Jucato> QUESTION: does sustained user support in the forums and/or IRC also count as substantial?
<jono> Jucato, sure, its a valid contribution to the communitu :)
<jono> community
<jono> <snail> QUESTION: in your opinion jono, which projects / packages / teams are most in need of entry level members with a few programming skills? where can we find these projects / packages / teams? is there a list someplace?
<popey> Jokosher!
<neuro_> lol
<jono> snail, I think we REALLY need people to help with the Bug Squad - and Simon Law is providing sessions on the bug squad this week - the team deal with categorising and organising bug reports
<jono> also marketing and docs
<jono> <Seeker`> QUESTION: Can you bring along people to the CC that aren't already members to support your application?
<jono> Seeker`, sure - everyone is welcome :)
<jono> <Panzerboy> QUESTION: does the CC have a wiki page? if yes, which one is it?
<jono> Panzerboy, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<jono> <Chris____> QUESTION: would people who contributed to the Linux kernel, not neccesarily Ubuntu, be good people to support your application?
<jono> Chris____, we really look for people in the Ubuntu community to support your application, but do bring people over who can support your technical expertise
<jono> <irvin> QUESTION: do ubuntu membership expire? if yes, what's the process involved in getting it back?
<whowe> QUESTION:  what room do we ask questions in?
<Seveas> whowe, #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Seeker`> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> irvin, right now, I don't think it does - there was some discussion of it at UDS
<gnomefreak> jono: 2 years last i heard
<jono> <amachu> QUESTION: What is LoCo distribution point?
<Seveas> jono, they do -- after 2 years
<jono> amachu, eh?
<ailean> all memberships do have expiry dates
<jono> gnomefreak, Seveas ahhh ok
<ailean> even mark's
<jono> <atoponce> QUESTION: can a respected member tell me how i am currently doing, and what i could do to improve?
<jono> atoponce, sure, and we always recommend that community members help other community members with their application process
<jono> feedback is key here :)
<jono> <davmor2> QUESTION: Does answering questions on forums, irc etc add towards membership
<jono> davmor2, yes, it is valid contribution to our communityu
<jono> <whowe_> QUESTION:  Ok, what are the guidelines for the documentation?
<jono> whowe, what do you mean?
<jono> <whowe_> The documentation for external marketing and advocacy?  How do they want it documented?
<jono> whadar, you would need to speak to those teams about thaty
<jono> docs is critical in the community and different teams approach it in different ways
<jono> <popey> QUESTION: Do you get to choose your @ubuntu.com email address? Can I have jono_is_my_dad@ubuntu.com?
<gnomefreak> lol
<juliux> lol
<jono> popey, you can choose, although we recommend serious terms - although I would love to jono_is_a_rock_god@ubuntu.com
<popey> ahhahaha
<popey> and back on planet earth...
<gnomefreak> i think it goes on your LP name
<jono> ok all questions done so far
<jono> any other burning questions to go to -chat?
<thiebaude> thanks jono
<pygi> Jono: burning exactly :)
<antihec> thank you, jono :-)
<jono> :)
<pygi> jono: as in cdrecording :P
<jono> just a few final words
<neuro_> thanks jono
<Panzerboy> thanks jono
<jono> community is critical to ubuntu
<jono> it is the glue that holds us all together
<gnomefreak> jono: another great session thank you :)
<jono> part of the reason we have this membership process is to identify good people
<popey> yeah, great session.
<jono> traditionally in free software it is a case of licking your finger and putting it in the wind
<vdepizzol> what time is now in UTC?
<rulus> thanks for the great session Jono!
<ailean> 1546
<jono> part of my job is to identify good people, but we also want to have processes that make sense to identify good people too
<gnomefreak> popey is pronounced pop i  right?
<pygi> jono, you have a question ;)
<lumpki> 15:46 UTC
<popey> OI!
<vdepizzol> thank's :)
* neuro_ forgot a question too ;)
<jono> personally, I hate beurocracy and I am always concious of it when we decide on governance, so don't worry to much about it
<neuro_> jono: \o/
<jono> <neuro_> QUESTION: are there any sysadmin tasks / roles available for community members, as opposed to Canonical staff?
<pygi> heh
<neuro_> itym, bureaucracy
* proppy claps
<Yawner> thanks again Jono
<Amaranth> jono: I think we should have to go through 6 layers of management to get membership approval. Of course you _have_ to get bounced between the layers at least a dozen times to be worth it. ;)
<jono> neuro_, good question, I would speak to the sysadmin team - its fairly centrally  managed here by our IS team, but there are some thing which need doing, such as LoCo related stuff
<neuro_> cool
<popey>  \o/ .oO( I am Jono! )
<popey>  (o) .oO( I am popey! )
<popey>  |'|
<jono> Amaranth, hehe
<neuro_> i was thinking along the lines of the fedora-admin crew, who aren't all red hat staff.
<jono> <_jmk_> QUESTION: There was a question about how programmers not currently in open source can get started? Like people at University that study programming. Not sure I saw an answer to that...
<neuro_> thanks again, o semi-bearded one
<popey>  /win 44
<jono> _jmk_, just write code, break it, fix it and learn - Ubuntu is a great platform for learning to code - Python and GTK are your friends
<neuro_> jono: exactly what i would have said in your shoes
<bryan4134> .
<neuro_> although s/Python and GTK/Perl/g
<jono> see http://learningpython.com/
<neuro_> :>
<jono> <ailean> QUESTION: does the possibility of employment by Canonical exist through this process?
<Amaranth> _jmk_: The easiest answer to that is to simply find something interesting, write some code (or a patch for an existing project), and go from there.
<jono> ailean, Canonical hire good people who prove themselves - if you prove to be a good person for Ubuntu, you will be noticed - we cannot promise anything, but we look for good people - we also sponsor good people to come to summits and such
<ailean> k thanks
<jono> just before we finish up
<jono> I just want to make a few things clear
<jono> my role at Canonical and as part of the community is to make our community kick arse - and I am always keen to get good solid feedback
<jono> I want to hear about the great things you folks are doing, and I also want to hear about the problems you see
<jono> I cannot guarantee I can solve everything, but my door is open
<ailean> Do you have an email addy we can use then?
<jono> the free software landscale is *all* changeable - and we can always make things better
<jono> ailean, jono AT ubuntu DOT com
<ailean> easy one :)
<jono> <theller> QUESTION: is the jobs list on http://www.ubuntu.com/employment up to date?
<popey> jono@I_am_in_love_with_my_beard.com
<jono> theller, yes
<ypsila> pruhust
<jono> popey, arf arf arf!
<jono> Fritti> QUESTION: how do we reach you best? IRC / email?
<jono> Fritti, bigger issues I prefer email, quick questions and comments, IRC me
<jono> right we are done :)
<atoponce> jono: thx for the class. it was very helpful.
<popey> \o/
<jono> thanks folks for sticking around, I hope it was useful :)
<laharrin_> thanks
<popey> deffo
<ailean> thanks jono
* macluvjay clpas
<Casanova> jono: thanks a lot :-)
<theller> thanks jono
<Seeker`> thanks jono
<irvin> thanks jono
* macluvjay claps
<Jucato> yay!
<dloic> clap clap
<lumpki> ditto
<Jucato> thank you!
<Casanova> i enjoyed it a lot :)
<claydoh> very nice jono
<popey> Moo!
<apokryphos> cool :)
<GSF> clap clap
<rrittenhouse> thanks jono
<thiebaude> very good
<rulus> thanks a lot !
<jono> :)
<jrib> thanks
<_jmk_> thanks
<neuro_> great jono, excellent
<LjL> Thank you
* popey stands up
* neuro_ tugs on jono's beard
<popey> *clap*
* danbuntu_ standing ovation
<gnomonic> Great session, jono (and friends)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next Session: Using Launchpad
<mihakriket> Thanks jono
<jono> and blog about this week, lets grow the community even bigger :)
* GSF throws roses
<davmor2> thanks Jono (rock god my arse):)
<GSF> haha
* GazzaK giggles at popey 
<juliux> thanks jono
* popey throws his knickers
* apokryphos chuckles
* proppy hugs dholbach
<popey> We Wuv you Jono!
<proppy> oups
* danbuntu_ makes sign of the devil 
* proppy hugs jono
<neuro_> jono: i'll only blog about this week if you get round to doing a certain advocacy planet addition i asked you about weeks ago :>
<irvin> now let's all grow beard and rock!
* dholbach hugs proppy back :-)
* neuro_ has beard!
<jono> neuro_, oh...yeah
* neuro_ has rawk!
* popey hands neuro_ a saucer of milk
* neuro_ beardrocks
<neuro_> popey: you calling me a pussyboy? :)
<popey> meow
<neuro_> lol
<dholbach> irvin: ROCKING: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mneptok/rockin.gif
<neuro_> you sir, are a cad
<neuro_> \m/
<popey> :)
<popey> I have had to try this hard..
<Seveas> dholbach, is that jono?
<popey> |---------------------------------------------> |
<popey> not to laugh at my desk for the last hour
<dholbach> Seveas: hahaha :-)
<Seeker`> popey: Not to scale?
<apokryphos> popey: I've failed 8)
<dholbach> Seveas: ask mneptok
<Jucato> QUESTION: btw, what's the bottle dance all about? :)
<neuro_> Jucato: :))))
<apokryphos> hehe
<Seveas> Jucato, shush
<Fritti> *grin*
<whadar> jono: ?
<Seveas> jono doesn't want to be reminded of it ;)
<neuro_> Seveas: no no, it's a pertinent question
<neuro_> we demand an answer
<rrittenhouse> haha
* macluvjay stretches
<neuro_> bottle dance!
<neuro_> bottle dance!
<neuro_> bottle dance!
* lotusleaf spins the bottle
<kalon33> thanks a lot jono, now we have to work for involvment ! ^^
<jono> Jucato, I like to dance, and I happen to dance holding my beer, just in case some thief nicks it, so its been nicknames the bottle dance
<kalon33> *involvement
<neuro_> jono: \o/
<neuro_> now we know
<jono> hehe
<Jucato> lol :)
<neuro_> either that or he's fobbed us off with the OBVIOUS ANSWER!
<rrittenhouse> haha, nice.
<rrittenhouse> hmm
<neuro_> could be a variation on the red hot chilli peppers
<neuro_> they have socks on their ...
<neuro_> jono could have had a bottle on his ...
<neuro_> :>
<lotusleaf> O_o
<jono> btw, another community Q+A tomorrow at 5pm UTC
<irvin> perhaps we could entice jono for a feisty release song :)
<Seveas> neuro_, neh, there aren't that small bpttles
<jono> irvin, hehe
<neuro_> Seveas: fair point
<neuro_> harsh
<neuro_> harsh but fair
<ailean> is feisty going to be released on schedule? i thought there were serious problems
<thiebaude> i'm ready for 7.04
* popey is running feisty \o/
<Amaranth> ailean: feisty development just started, what serious problems are you talking about?
<ailean> no, i mean the first cd on thurs :)
* neuro_ is ready for 10.04 :)
<Amaranth> ailean: oh, that
* popey is ready for 13.37
<thiebaude> it keeps getting better
<neuro_> hehe
<kiko> hello hello
<ailean> Amaranth, do you know what the state of play is?
* neuro_ gets back to writing kickstarts for rhel4 boxen :(
* jono bows before kiko 
<jono> :P
<neuro_> thanks again jono matey
<ailean> Amaranth, are you the XGL guy?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo apokryphos gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo jono Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o kiko]  by ChanServ
<Amaranth> ailean: I'm a beryl developer, if that's what you mean
<jono> ok folks
<Amaranth> ailean: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ailean> i just remember the name
<jono> ready for some kiko love?
<ailean> ok
<kiko> if we have to
<jono> introducing a man who looks like every member of the Red Hot Chilli Peppers rolled into one
<jono> its Christian Reis!!
<kiko> except for billy cogan, jono means
<jono> take it away kiko
<jono> :P
<kiko> and billy corgan of course.
<kiko> okay welcome to this tuesday's session of "Learning to Love Launchpad"
<kiko> (the love is cheesy yes but I wanted three identical vowels and Lick wasn't a good choice)
<ailean> (consonants :) )
<kiko> so I'll start off pointing the obvious
<jenda> consonants, you mean
<jenda> hehe
<kiko> what's a word between friends
<ailean> feic, aren't we all picky...
<Amaranth> kiko: It's definitely something you have to learn to love. ;)
<ailean> sorry
<kiko> launchpad is a tool for both project communication and inter-project collaboration
<kiko> when I say project communication I really mean intra-project communication
<kiko> and many people have experienced Launchpad in that aspect
<kiko> for instance, looking at ubuntu bugs
<kiko> or helping translate jokosher (free advertising)
<kiko> or even writing a specification for a bzr enhancement
<kiko> launchpad can definitely be used to manage your own project
<kiko> we offer a few areas of functionality which we like to call applications
<kiko> even though the line between them is slightly fuzzy
<kiko> they are:
<kiko> - bugs
<kiko> - translations
<kiko> - questions and answers (a.k.a. support)
<kiko> - blueprints
<kiko> - code (a.k.a. branches)
<kiko> this means that your own project can use launchpad today to manage those areas of your work.
<kiko> you can use each bit as much as you like -- it's not an all-or-nothing proposition
<kiko> so you can choose to use launchpad for bug hosting, but keep your code in subversion for now
<kiko> you can choose to take advantage of launchpad's easy translation functionality to kick off a translation project for your software, like jono did
<kiko> or you can use launchpad to manage support requests that come in for your project.
<kiko> that's the thousand-foot-view of the launchpad applications
<kiko> I'll take two questions that came up before now just to keep this less of a monologue!
<kiko> <jono> <neuro_> QUESTION: How straightforward is it to add another distribution to launchpad, i.e. my own fictional distro, neurolinux, or some other non-Ubuntu-based distro?
<kiko> adding of distributions is a bit special for technical reasons.
<Seveas> kiko, lotsof questions are already being asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;)
<kiko> (Seveas, I know, I'm trying to keep tabs on them!)
<kiko> because launchpad is used to manage the ubuntu archive, there are certain bits of the distribution management system that are a bit.. let's say.. sensitive to new distros and releases being added
<kiko> we've worked to simplify that and allow distros to be created without a significant burden on the end-user, but we're Not Quite There Yet
<neuro_> kiko: i suppose the question is, is there a documented process that can be followed to a point where a launchpad admin can make things happen, i.e. web forms to fill in, etc
<neuro_> yeah
<kiko> yes
<neuro_> ok, cool
<neuro_> is it on the wiki, or somewhere else? :)
<kiko> you can file a new ticket (in /products/launchpad/+tickets) to have your distribution added. the basic bits of metadata are: a name, a description a URL and a team to hold its members.
<neuro_> aha
<neuro_> ok, thanks
<kiko> it's not actually on the wiki, though that's more of a bug than an explicit consideration
<kiko> I'll make a note to make these instructions clearer.
<kiko> and a faq entry.
<kiko> good.
<kiko> okay, two fun questions that everybody loves asking!
<kiko> <jono> <proppy> QUESTION: is launchpad free software ?
<kiko> <Jucato> QUESTION: is Launchpad going to be "open sourced" soon? Some people seem to have issues with using a proprietary service like LP.
<kiko> <proppy> QUESTION: can i install my own launchpad somewhare and how ?
<kiko> these three questions are kind of related
<theller> thanks jono
<kiko> as of today, Launchpad is not free software
<kiko> there are a number of reasons for this
<kiko> I'll outline the ones which I consider the most relevant
<leonel> and  doesn't have to be  freesoftware
<kiko> - launchpad is essentially a centralized service. without debating the merits or disadvantages of a centralized service, I'd like to point out that one of the concerns with releasing Launchpad source code is that a number of different launchpads would pop up
<kiko> with a federated system of launchpad the sort of problems we are trying to solve become different and to an extent more complicated
<kiko> - launchpad is non-trivial to contribute to. we have and will offer NDAs to people willing to assist us in working with the code, but we know that there's a big learning curve and that people are less motivated to work on something for which they will not be able to roll out on their own
<kiko> we have a pretty serious code review, QA and rollout process (which you can witness on #launchpad) which is not too inviting for people who are interested in making a short one-off contribution
<kiko> if you are interested, please mail me (kiko@canonical.com) at any time and I'll talk about the process for getting code access. I'd love to have community people come in and help out -- we have limited resources and this is not a small application.
<kiko> - launchpad is non-trivial to /run/. we have about six core servers that are used for day-to-day operations, and something like 10 or 12 that are used for the services which we call upon to collect data
<kiko> running a similar site would be anon-trivial production exercise, and the code and documentation have not been written to make any of this easily deployable. there are over 40 moving parts that need to be run independently (last I counted at least, and I was depressed at the result!)
<kiko> so it's not a small thing.
<kiko> let me move on otherwise people will fry me for talking too much on one subject, but please email me (kiko@canonical.com) if you want to discuss this with me at greater length
<kiko> I am always fond of conversation, being a brazilian!
<kai[sds] > those are about the same arguments sun had before releasing java. btw. the linux kernel is non-trivial to contribute to and by releasing the source code of it different linux distributions could pop up.
<kiko> it's true, and we may reconsider, but those are our arguments today.
<proppy> kiko: thanks for answering that one :)
<kiko> (or perhaps better put, those are not the exact same arguments, as java and launchpad are very different -- launchpad is a web service, like google. we'd love to reconsider, though, and perhaps we can find a way of doing so if we have some great ideas together)
<kiko> anyway, moving on
<kiko> <HamishTPB> QUESTION: So is LP a service that makes a site similar to sourceforge?
<kiko> yes, it's a web service, and in that line, it's somewhat similar to sourceforge.
<kiko> it's not like sourceforge in the sense that it doesn't offer mailing lists or web hosting for free
<HamishTPB> thanks - LP is one of those things I keep reading about in blogs and stuff but never actually got around to looking to see what it was :)
<kiko> but you can use it to track bugs and tickets
<kiko> and you can use it to translate software (which is internationalized using gnu gettext, for now)
<kiko> which is something that SF doesn't offer.
<kiko> we also offer hosting of bzr repositories
<kiko> so there /are/ additional (and particularly interesting) features that you can use on Launchpad today that aren't available elsewhere
<kiko> so we are a bit of a unique platform.
<kiko> okay.
<kiko> let me guide you quickly through some of the applications
<kiko> so I don't burn up /all/ my time in controversy :-)
<kiko> let me start with bugs, because as we know all software has bugs, and software like ubuntu, well, it has LOTS of bugs.
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
<kiko> 20262 of them, to be precise
<kiko> this is the master bug listing for ubuntu
<kiko> by default it is ordered by importance, which is a single bug property that indicates how important it is /to the project team/
<kiko> the bug listing is batched in sets of 75, so you can navigate to the next batch using those controls at the top
<kiko> to get to a bug select the link in the summary
<kiko> let's look at a bug chosen from that listing so I can illustrate other points that are a bit unique to malone
* kiko looks
<kiko> how about bug 68904:
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/68904
<kiko> the bug page gives you a lot of information in the first screen
<kiko> the central portion has the bug summary
<kiko> the bit I want to call your attention to is the table at the top
<kiko> that specific bug lists two rows in the table
<kiko> and in the fact that there /are/ two rows shows why the launchpad bug tracker is somewhat unique:
<kiko> you can
<kiko> oops, that come out wrong!
<kiko> a bug can exist in multiple bits or instances of software at the same time.
<rockz> auehauehuahe
<kiko> this is an interesting bug to point this out in particular
<kiko> so distributions in general work by packaging software available upstream
<kiko> this is a bug that was initially reported against ubuntu
<kiko> meaning that an ubuntu user went and filed the bug while looking at the ubuntu file-a-bug page
<kiko> (which is incidentally launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug)
<kiko> now, the bug was triaged by scott, who happens to maintain the package in ubuntu
<kiko> now a bug in a package can really be the responsibility of two different parties
<kiko> a) it can be a bug in the original software. most bugs are of this sort. essentially, this is a bug that needs to be fixed in the upstream's version control  system, and released to the world in whatever form they do releases; usually tarballs.
<kiko> b) it can be a bug in the packaging, meaning that the bug was caused when the original software was reorganized and changed to suit the distribution's policies and layout
<kiko> now, this particular bug was filed against ubuntu, and end-users do not need to know if it's a) or b) above
<kiko> but the triagers and developers can definitely look at the bug and say "ah, upstream issue"
<kiko> a bug will normally start out only filed against a single context.
<kiko> let me find you an example.
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/69532
<kiko> in bug 69532, there is a single row in that table -- the bug was only reported against ubuntu.
<kiko> if someone goes in and decides that the bug is actually (or also) an upstream issue, meaning it's case a) above -- a bug in the original software -- any user can go ahead and indicate "Also affects: +Upstream"
<kiko> that will allow the user to indicate what upstream software the bug is present in
<kiko> and that's how you get to the two-rows situation which is in bug 68904.
<kiko> let me close the brief bugs overview by pointing out that the bug tracker has a number of cool features: keeping track of CVEs, an incoming and outgoing email interface (meaning you can manipulate bugs via email too) and bug watches.
<kiko> bug watches are one of our most interesting features, and they are basically ways to attach a row [in the Affects: table I described above]  to a bug in a remote bugtracker, such as gnome's bugzilla or otherwise.
<kiko> let's look at bug 27810 for an example
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/libaio/+bug/27810
<kiko> this is an interesting bug because it has one ubuntu status, and one debian status.
<kiko> the debian status is actually "linked" via a bug watch to debbugs #318795.
<kiko> and the status is polled periodically and updated in launchpad
<kiko> this means that if you are a packager waiting for a fix to appear upstream or in another distribution, you can simply check your bugmail daily; you will get notified when the remote bug is resolved.
<kiko> this is amazingly valuable and people that package a broad variety of software can really save time by keeping tabs on upstream bugs in this fashion.
<antihec> nice
<kiko> okay, enough bug whirlwinding.
<kiko> let me catapult you to another part of launchpad -- translations!
<kiko> I'm going to use jokosher as the example here just to demostrate that we are not really ubuntu-specific or even ubuntu-centric
<kiko> (though ubuntu does make for a damn good demo!)
<kiko> launchpad.net/products/jokosher/+translations
<kiko> this will display translation templates available for jokosher in your preferred languages (if selected) or your geoip location (if the geoip and the launchpad databases are not wrong!)
<jono> woo!
<kiko> so
<kiko> for instance
<kiko> if you are a brazilian weirdo like me
<kiko> you can choose to help translate jokosher by following the link to
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/products/jokosher/trunk/+pots/jokosher/pt_BR/+translate
<niemeyer> There are no brazilians weird like you..
<kiko> if on the other hand you are a chinese rogue translator sumarai sort of person
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/products/jokosher/trunk/+pots/jokosher/zh_CN/+translate
<kiko> you guys had a rosetta chat yesterday, and this is just an overview of what the tool is.
<kiko> I just want to point out one feature which is useful and clears up some confusion:
<kiko> translations for a project can be set up in a structured mode
<kiko> this means that you don't need to accept translations that happen to be added by J. Random Defacer
<kiko> in structured mode, translations made by unprivileged users (people not in the projects' selected translation team) appear as suggestions
<OgMaciel> kiko it is worth to mention that there are organized translation teams too... for the weirdo Brazilians, for instance, one can check https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-l10n-pt-br as a starting point
<kiko> and are not automatically approved
<bob_> it is almost 1700 UTC, is this the room where Mark Shuttleworth will respond to questions?
<kiko> right. there are a number of translation teams associated to ubuntu and otherwise! if you do know more than one language competently, you can make a big dent in our lack of translations by applying to join a team and working with people to get through the approval process.
<kiko> let me zip through other features that are worth discussing.
<kiko> (I'll use ubuntu because there is just so much data to make it fun)
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+tickets
<kiko> this is the URL to the tickets open on Ubuntu; tickets are part of the launchpad application formerly known as Support and soon-to-be-renamed-as-Launchpad Answers
<kiko> (I'll talk a bit about the name change in the next report sent to the launchpad-users mailing list if you are interested)
<kiko> this is basically a channel where end-users can post requests for help
<kiko> and anybody (ANYBODY!) can offer answers
<bob_> QUESTION: it is almost 1700 UTC, is this the room for Ask Mark (Shuttleworth)?
<kiko> answers that the end-user confirms are good get marked as solved
<GSF> bob_: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kiko> and the base of solved questions is a good first step towards a faq.
<kiko> the answer tracker is a runaway hit for ubuntu -- there are already thousands of requests posted and answered.
<kiko> you can use the answer tracker as a way to deal with user requests outside of your bug tracker, and then migrate issues that are actually bugs over
<kiko> you can easily file bugs based on a ticket.
<kiko> (just look at the left-hand menu that says "Create Bug Report" and "Link Existing Bug")
<michael__> is Mark here yet?
<Lesley> hello!
<sidhi> hi
<kiko> helping out in a project's community support is a great way to provide assistance, and I think the answer tracker we have is a cheap way to set a forum up for your own project.
<PBeck> open-suse developer here? :)
<davmor2> chat on #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<kiko> I need to kick into fifth today (isn't it great when your plans for time go out the window?)
<ubuntufreak> now they are now in the msn livechat ;)
<kiko> the remaining apps which I did NOT cover (yay) were the blueprint tracker and the code hosting feature.
<kiko> I'll cover them in reverse in my next talk on thursday
<kiko> so we can be sure to discuss them there.
<jono> ok
<greguti> thanks a lot for all these informations, it's extremely valuable
<Seveas> thanks kiko!
<GSF> thanks
<jono> thanks kiko
<Alex_Palex> thanks kiko
<davmor2> thanks kiko nice round up
<ubuntufreak> thx
<ktogias> thanks kiko
<mattl> thanks kiko
<topyli_> i hope this is "organized" somehow, so that there won't be 412 questions at 17:00 :)
<rulus> thanks for this fantastic session kiko!
<roze1> prot
<jono> so, sabdfl is up next in our Ask Mark session
<kiko> I've got the questions posted here in a vim box (yay vim boo emacs) and I'll try replying either privately or in the questions channel.
<lzap> thanks
<kiko> thanks to everybody that put up with my typos and bad breath!
<kiko> oh I wasn't supposed to say that on IRC?
<sabdfl> great work kiko
<ubuntufreak> *g*
<sabdfl> wrists ready for icing?
<Seveas> kiko, no worries, aroma-over-irc has been disabled for this session
<jono> IMPORTANT: like our previous sessions, this channel needs to be quiet while the next hour is in progress and sabdfl answers your questions - please post your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<amachu> sabdfl, Mark Shuttleworth?
<jono> amachu, yes
<antihec> thanks kiko :)
<kiko> I will apply vegetable balm to them
<lotusleaf> sabdfl has a posse
<amachu> sabdfl, hi
<jono> Mark will take the questions ans answer them here
<kiko> all right, enjoy mark!
<greguti> (what does "sabdfl" means?)
* kiko was kicked off #ubuntu-classroom by kiko (make way for the man who saw the moon real close)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+oo sabdfl Jon]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Jon]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jono]  by ChanServ
<sabdfl> greguti: is that the first question :-)
<jono> ok folks lets go
<amachu> sabdfl, Hi Mark... this is amachu from Ubuntu Tamil Team
<greguti> well, I hope so :-)
<sabdfl> ok, i'll answer greguti while the rest of the questions get put in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, ok?
<jono> remember to prefix questions with QUESTION folks
<jono> sabdfl, shoot
<sabdfl> greguti: "self-appointed benevolent dictator for life"
<greguti> got it
<sabdfl> jono: will you be bringing the Q's across from -chat, or should I do that?
<jono> sabdfl, your choice - would you like to? so you can pick the relavent questions?
<sabdfl> jono: prefer you to do that, so i can focus on answering them here
<jono> sure
<jono> <davmor2> QUESTION:  Is launchpad working out the way you hoped it would or does it still need work mark?
<sabdfl> ok, folks, please put your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefix them with QUESTION
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:jono] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next Session: Ask Mark
<jono> first question is:
<sabdfl> davmor2: LP is working out well, though there have certainly been teething problems along the way. we now have our archives, uploads, builds, bugs, translations, and planning handled there, and quite a lot of upstreams are using it too which is super
<jono>  <davmor2> QUESTION:  Is launchpad working out the way you hoped it would or does it still need work mark?
<jono> oops
<neuro_> jono: hehe
<jono> <Zerlinna> QUESTION: Can we expect more paid developers for Kubuntu? If yes, when? Yesterday in the kubuntu session we were informed that there is still only one paid dev, tough on linuxtag (May 2006) there was the promise to hire more people from KDE to work on Kubuntu.
<sabdfl> we are currently working on a proper UI, so when that is released LP will actually look *designed* rather than *grown*
<eboogie> sabdfl...you rock, bro.
<sabdfl> Zerlinna: yes, I'm sure that some of the new devs we are hiring will be KDE specialists. Many of our core team just happen to use and love Gnome, so it gets a lot of full-time love. I think you'll be amazed to know there are only two folks formally on the gnome desktop team at Canonical - seb128 and dholbach, it's a testament to them how amazingly good the gnome packaging is
<sabdfl> thanks eboogie, but with a nick like that you must rock a lot too :-)
<eboogie> i hear that...
<jono> <mattl> QUESTION: How close do you think we are to getting bug #1 resolved?
<michael__> QUESTION: sabdfl, why not use debian-language-support-packages instead of makin new ones???
<Seveas> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<michael__> upps sry
<gsuveg> michael__: please on chat
<sabdfl> mattl: a long way still. linux only has a tiny market share, and until we are beyond 10% i think it will be hard to get ISV and consumer electronic manufacturer attention. that said, i think linux has a good chance to rebalance the ecosystem, especially if we can find a way to keep it free of charge rather than making expensive shrink-wrapped versions of it
<jono> <bclinch> QUESTION: Will Ubuntu ever be shipped to shops, in boxes with user guides, and then be sold like Suse, I think this would be a good step to get more people interestd!
<mattl> sabdfl: do you see a way to get Ubuntu into stores, in a low cost package?
<LjL> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Seveas> mattl, NOT HERE
<mattl> Seveas: I'm replying to a response. Is that not allowed?
<cga> Seveas, i suggest you set mode +m
<sabdfl> bclinch: there are some retail editions, produced by third parties in boxed sets. and you can buy official Ubuntu on DVD at Amazon etc
<oblio> Seveas: make it moderated
<sabdfl> also we are now working with more and more retail companies to preinstall ubuntu on PC's, you'll see a lot of that in 2007
<jono> <whiprush> QUESTION: Are you guys still pursuing Oracle certification for Ubuntu? Does Oracle moving into the "distro business" change any of that?
<sabdfl> whiprush: very good question. yes, we are still pursuing that, and have every reason to believe that Oracle will do it once a reasonable number of large companies make it clear that Ubuntu is preferable to them over Red Hat and Oracle
<sabdfl> however
<sabdfl> now that Oracle is themselves a service provider to the Linux OS, they will likely resist certifying new versions of Linux
<sabdfl> so it is definitely a setback for us
<sabdfl> i think it's *great* that Oracle has entered the linux services game
<sabdfl> though i think their chose rip-off-redhat strategy is cute but ultimately too-clever-by-half
<gsuveg> possible to moderate this channel ?
<sabdfl> they will end up either forking outright, and making oracle linux, or buying red hat, or just offering services for ubuntu
<jono> <kai[sds] > QUESTION: what are the aspects of ubuntu you are not satisfied with yet, that need most of the work? (talking about features)
<Amaranth> gsuveg: it's fine if you stop talking :)
<sabdfl> artwork!
<wedderburn> lol
<sabdfl> i'm very happy that we have the beginnings of a strong artwork community team
<sabdfl> but we still need a lot of hard work to get done
<sabdfl> in addition, i'd like to see us continue to improve our formal hardware testing
<sabdfl> so we know where it works, and where it does not, before each release
<sabdfl> we need to continue to grow the number of developers to match the number of users, because more users equals more use cases, more bugs, more packages needed
<sabdfl> integration with windows is important, i'd like to see that addressed
<sabdfl> and then i'd like to see us showing that the free software desktop can really exceed people's expectations
<sabdfl> right now  expectations are set by the proprietary platforms
<sabdfl> its a bit like the browser before firefox 1.5
<sabdfl> i hope that compiz/beryl will be an amazing environment of innovation for the desktop metaphor
<sabdfl> and telepathy/galago will change people's sense of "connected"
<sabdfl> we need to show that the amazing integration of apps and the net is really best suited to a free software world
<MacSlow> and not to forget lowfat *cough* ;)
<sabdfl> so there is plenty of work to be done yet :-)
<neuro_> MacSlow: lol, nice plug :)
<joejaxx> sabdfl: i was wondering what do you think we can do to strengthen the releationships and collaboration between Ubuntu and the different derivatives that have arisen from its creation
<sabdfl> MacSlow: if only it were free software :-)
<MacSlow> neuro_, :)
<jono> <Admiral_Chicago> QUESTION: what has been the hardest part about developing ubuntu?
<MacSlow> sabdfl, don't worry it will come
<marky> Hi
<sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: maintaining a clear vision despite the unbelievable growth in the community
<cga> hi marky , please use the chat channel
<gnomefreak> joejaxx: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat type QUESTION:<your question>
<joejaxx> whoops wrong channel
<joejaxx> sorry everyone
<cga> !questions marky
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about questions marky - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<marky> ???
<sabdfl> ubuntu has grown in user base, in derivatives (ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, edubuntu, ubuntu studio, guadalinex...)
<sabdfl> but the core dev team has not grown that quickly
<sabdfl> fortunately, we have an amazing community, and the growth in that, and folks willingness to help shape ubuntu, has made the growth possible
<jono> <dotwaffle> QUESTION: How much influence do you have over the development of Ubuntu - ie/ If 90% of the developers were against a feature, would you over-ride?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by nalioth
<jono> ok folks, we are moderating this chan, too much noise
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<sabdfl> dotwaffle: EVERYTHING is a negotiation :-)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Amaranth]  by ChanServ
<jono> make comments in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sabdfl> there are plenty of examples of places i don't get what i think is best
<sabdfl> i agitate and push hard in many cases because that's my job - open doors, break down walls, challenge thinking
<sabdfl> in some cases, with hindsight, i'm wrong
<sabdfl> nekkid people, anyone?
<sabdfl> and the community processes are often good at fleshing out an idea and looking it from angles one person would never consider
<sabdfl> but, at the same time, i think it's useful to have someone who *can* take a decision that's tough
<sabdfl> ultimately, though, any push comes at a cost, so i use what weight i have very sparingly
<jono> <daxelrod> QUESTION: No one can be the leader of a large software project without running into controversy. What controversial decisions do you feel are actually worth discussing (as opposed to ancient debates over, for example, editors)?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-z]  by nalioth
<sabdfl> daxelrod: funny you should ask :-)
<sabdfl> right now there is a lot of discussion around the use of drivers that are proprietary
<sabdfl> we have included such drivers in ubuntu since the very first release
<sabdfl> along with firmware
<sabdfl> but with the new 3D desktop effects work going on in the Beryl / Compiz communities, we will have a situation where some people will have a very different desktop experience to others
<sabdfl> and this will to a certain extent depend on the use of proprietary drivers
<sabdfl> that's controversial :-)
<sabdfl> i just blogged some thoughts in this regard, and expect the discussion to continue over the coming days
<jono> <oblio> QUESTION: is launchpad closed source your protection against other companies - let's not forget oracle boss ellison said that red hat isn't worth anything because they don't own anything? don't you think that launchpad is far too customized to be taken away by another company, and it would be better open sourced? more eyes on bugs
<sabdfl> oblio: man, i would love to have more eyes on LP bugs :-)
<sabdfl> yes, LP is part of what I hope will sustain ubuntu in the long term
<sabdfl> note that this has nothing to do with locking in people's data
<sabdfl> we've said that we will make it possible to get any of your data our without having to screen-scrape
<sabdfl> in rosetta, that's easy because PO files are the lingua-franca of translations
<sabdfl> in others, we either have text views of reports which are easy to parse, or are working on xml-rpc interfaces
<sabdfl> i would like it to be possible to drive LP entirely through xml-rplc
<sabdfl> both inputting and extracting data
<jono> <mattl> QUESTION: Do you intend to ever have more than one jono, either by an elaborate and illegal cloning exercise, or more likely by hiring other great people as the community expands?
<sabdfl> nice choice of question jono :-)
<jono> :P
<sabdfl> jono is, of course, unique
<sabdfl> hopefully, everyone at Canonical is open to working with the community, understands how important that is to us
<sabdfl> Jono lead a very good session at our recent AllHands company meeting, introducing our new business guys to some radical ideas in this regard
<sabdfl> and yes, we have hired other guys specifically because of their ability to work well with the community
<sabdfl> matt revell starts RSN to help the marketing team @canonical grok community ideas
<jono> <jjtoymachine> QUESTION: Any truth to the ubuntu team working with the google team to create an OS?
<sabdfl> jjtoymachine: i think it's well-known that Googlers use a modded Ubuntu as their dev desktop, there are no master plans behind the scenes beyond that AFAIK
<jono> <Admiral_Chicago> QUESTION: is Ubuntu considering revisitng their own patent license or how they approcah licensing in the wake of Novelle / MS
<sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: we are certainly looking at ways to strengthen our stand against software patents
<sabdfl> we are entirely opposed to them, and its possible we can actively help to prevent their spread, beyond the advocacy we already do
<sabdfl> whether or not the Novell executives who negotiated the recent Novell-MS deal were aware of what was going on, it's entirely obvious that MS is working to establish an IP framework that limits the spread of free Linux
<sabdfl> it was obvious to many of us the moment the deal was announced that "virtualisation interop" was far less interesting to MS than the patent implications
<sabdfl> MS paid Novell a lot of money to stand up on stage and validate their theories about patent licensing
<sabdfl> and MS will expect a return on their investment :-)
<sabdfl> so, i was not surprised when Ballmer came out with the statement that "anybody running any linux other than SUSE has an undisclosed balance sheet liability"
<sabdfl> what that means, in english, is that anybody who uses any version of linux other than those that pay MS, are liable to get sued by MS
<sabdfl> that includes Debian, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Fedora etc
<sabdfl> make no mistake about it, this is a major assault on the key things that have driven the success of linux
<sabdfl> this is why i think its so important to protest the deal
<sabdfl> and why i think we should find ways to take a stronger public position on patents within Ubuntu
<jono> <Warbo> QUESTION: Do you think Ubuntu might become too big for the Free Software community? Although Ubuntu itself is obviously pushing innovation, do you think other distros with more specific targets and more experimental ideas might go under since people would "wait for Ubuntu to do it"?
<sabdfl> Warbo: that's why folks should fork ubuntu :-)
<sabdfl> seriously
<sabdfl> i really like it when a group of people says "this is something that's very important to us and its not in ubuntu"
<sabdfl> make packages, make a derivative
<sabdfl> hopefully, we can make that process easier over time
<sabdfl> shortly, we will make it easy for people to biuld their own versions of ubuntu packages, and publish those
<sabdfl> that will allow teams to collaborate on specific things they think are important or cool
<sabdfl> if those things belong in the core, we will figure it out soon enough, based on input from places like the Forums
<sabdfl> which are a good source of "what people want" for us
<sabdfl> then we can move that into the core
<sabdfl> alternatively, those things might belong in a specialised derivative
<jono> <ailean> QUESTION: Why are proprietary drivers okay, but proprietary software such as Adobe Acrobat not?
<sabdfl> ailean: i blogged about exactly this question today :-)
<sabdfl> drivers allow free software to shine, they make it POSSIBLE for the free apps to gain traction
<sabdfl> it's a somewhat arbitrary line
<sabdfl> firmware
<sabdfl> drivers
<sabdfl> X drivers
<sabdfl> FCC-compliant blobs
<sabdfl> but after a LOT of discussion, a long time ago, we decided that we wanted to make sure the OS Just Worked with your hardware, and then install only free applications
<sabdfl> people really wanted java, but we left it out till it was GPL'd
<sabdfl> people today really want flash, but we don't include it
<sabdfl> hopefully, that's an incentive to people to write free versions of those apps
<sabdfl> which is much more feasible than free drivers for undocumented hardware
<sabdfl> i do believe we can win over the hardware guys to our cause
<sabdfl> but we need to engage with them over time
<sabdfl> drive users to choose hardware that is free-software friendly
<sabdfl> make the case based on security and support rather than ideology
<sabdfl> we will get there that way
<jono> <greguti> QUESTION: did you take some time to test the news Windows Vista, and if yes, what's your opinion on it?
<sabdfl> i ran an early beta of vista under vmware, which is not an ideal test environment
<sabdfl> i think MS have done a very good job with it
<sabdfl> though i think of course that it might have been better for them to set a more modest set of release goals and actually ship it years ago rather than go through the tortous path they have taken :-)
<sabdfl> interestingly, i watched the way MS related to their community
<sabdfl> i think they have been studying the free software world
<sabdfl> and trying to learn about building community
<sabdfl> open bug tackers
<sabdfl> classes for beta testers about how to submit really good bug reports
<sabdfl> lots of interactive sessions between developers and testers
<sabdfl> very interesting, and kudos to them
<sabdfl> we are going to have to raise our game substantially to compete
<sabdfl> we are going to have to innovate faster than they can over the next five years
<sabdfl> i think it is possible for us to take the desktop by storm
<sabdfl> but it won't "just happen"
<jono> <levander> QUESTION: Has Canonical been able to make any money off Ubuntu yet?  In what ways are Canonical business model for Ubuntu different than other Linux distributions?
<sabdfl> levander: yes, we offer 24x7 tech support for Ubuntu from our mOntreal office
<sabdfl> mostly, our customers there are using it on servers
<sabdfl> also, we have done some work customising it
<sabdfl> and now we are starting to work with people who want to use Launchpad commercially too
<sabdfl> we are still a long way from breakeven
<sabdfl> a lot depends on whether we can convince the major ISV's and IHV's to recognise the benefits of having a free platform they all certify
<sabdfl> with a company behind it
<sabdfl> in terms of difference
<sabdfl> (a) we don't have separate "community" and "enterprise" versions
<sabdfl> (b) we don't charge for the binaries, at all, you can use them free on as many servers and desktops as you want
<sabdfl> (c) we don't charge for security updates, you get those free too
<sabdfl> we only charge for services provided by humans on the team
<jono> <ailean> QUESTION: How threatened do you feel by Microsoft?  Do they actually have any claim on Ubuntu's code, will any legal threat fail, or does money talk?
<sabdfl> ailean: Interesting question
<sabdfl> MS have done some wonderful things for the world
<sabdfl> they made software cheap, which is great
<sabdfl> they made it standard
<sabdfl> they have produced some excellent software
<sabdfl> and some not-so-excellent software
<sabdfl> i think, now that we have the internet, that the free software process is a fundamentally better way of producing software, though
<sabdfl> and i think that free software platforms will innovate faster than proprietary ones
<sabdfl> so at a deep level, i think its them that should feel threatened
<sabdfl> that said
<sabdfl> history shows that a big organisation that can't change fast enough to adapt to changes in its environment ALWAYS tries to lock the environment down
<sabdfl> look at the RIAA
<sabdfl> the members there cannot see a way forward that preserves their profitability
<sabdfl> so they are suing their own customers
<sabdfl> to try to preserve a 70's era analog business model
<sabdfl> i think MS is prepared, if worst comes to worst, to sue their own customers
<sabdfl> in order to protect an 80's era business model, of software licensing
<sabdfl> that's dangerous
<sabdfl> they are of course also trying to innovate out of the corner
<sabdfl> Windows Live is interesting
<sabdfl> so is the X-Box, and the Zune
<sabdfl> they are all attempts to shift to subscription-based revenues
<sabdfl> relationship-based revenues
<sabdfl> if they can be successful there, they are less likely to go nuclear
<sabdfl> but if not...
<sabdfl> that's why we can't legitimise their IP dogma now
<sabdfl> why the Novell deal is so treacherous
<jono> <pointwood> QUESTION: Are there plans to make the upgrade process more smooth? Edgy upgrade didn't go well for many people, which often was their own fault, but still :)
<sabdfl> pointwood: yes, the team has an upgrade too
<sabdfl> l
<sabdfl> sorry
<sabdfl> the team has an upgrade tool, which is designed to smooth the process
<sabdfl> a lot of folks just change the apt/sources.list to point at the new release and hope for the best
<sabdfl> that won't work
<sabdfl> what we do need is more testing of the upgrade tool with each release
<sabdfl> and more community contributions to that tool
<sabdfl> so - please help out with Edgy->Feisty
<jono> <Spec> QUESTION: Pending legal action, would Ubuntu redirect all of their efforts in extracting "patented" code from the OS?
<sabdfl> Spec: we would certainly do our bit
<sabdfl> if anything that Canonical has created infringes someone's patents, we hope they will let us know so we can fix that, or that they will licence the patents for free use with free software
<sabdfl> we would also of course coordinate with upstreams working on their part
<sabdfl> i do not actually believe that a nuclear patent option will stop linux at all
<sabdfl> IBM and others have made it very clear they will use the muscle in their patent portfolios to stop big IT companies from trying that
<sabdfl> and as for small patent trolls, we can work around any patents they might come up with
<sabdfl> while at the same time, the linux vote is getting stronger and stronger
<sabdfl> if we had 50 million users in the USA, we could certainly block dangerous patent legislation
<jono> <stefg> QUESTION: You mentioned more extensive testing as a step to tackle upgrade issues in the future. Who actually is formally doing the testing? What happens with the results? How can I help?
<sabdfl> stefg: plese chat with mvo on #ubuntu-devel
<sabdfl> s/plese/please/
<jono> ok one final question
<jono> that a few people in the channel want to ask
<jono> what do you want for christmas sabdfl? for the man who has everything?
* gnomefreak tests it 3-4 times per release testing
<sabdfl> jono: my two front teeth :-)
<jono> hehe
<sabdfl> actually, thank-you notes from folks who appreciate ubuntu to the ubuntumembers would be nice
<sabdfl> please don't address them to me - it's the whole community that builds the distro, including doc, translations and artwork
<sabdfl> i get a kick from the thank-you's that I do receive, and i know the core devs feel exactly the same way
<jono> ok sabdfl is going to answer a few more
<jono> I have to run out for a bit, so he will post them here
<sabdfl> since there's no Open Week class scheduled here now, i'm happy to keep going a little while
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<jono> sabdfl, hero :)
<Seveas> jono, want someone to take over?
<sabdfl> Seveas: yes please!
<Seveas> ok
<jono> thanks Seveas
<Seveas> <tiagoboldt> Question: Ubuntu is all community driven, and there are lots of volunteers helping. I'm sure that many more would come if there was crystal-clear documentation and How-to's for new people to get their hands dirty in bug reporting, packaging, everything. Ins't it worth to put some extra energy on teaching everyone how to get inside the community? How to really be useful for ubuntu?
<sabdfl> tiagoboldt: yes, i think you're right. the doc team is doing AMAZING work, they have really leaped forward in recent months
<sabdfl> this open week is designed to welcome new members to the community
<sabdfl> and there are sessions (tomorrow 20h00 UTC for example) on the doc team
<Seveas> <DraxNS> QUESTION: How can one get sertified as Ubuntu user/admin?
<sabdfl> DraxNS: there is an LPI Ubuntu exam, you can take it at any Vue or Prometric site, or at an LPI exam
<sabdfl> we will soon announce more formal training courses in some countries
<sabdfl> if you know training companies, you can ask them to contact billycina
<Seveas> sabdfl, @ubuntu.com?
<sabdfl> on irc :-)
<Seveas> ok
<Seveas> <lorenzo> QUESTION: Where do the really cool names for Ubuntu releases come from?
<sabdfl> billy.cina@canonical.com too
<sabdfl> lorenzo: dude, i love you
<sabdfl> we make them up after a LOT of debate
<Seveas> Many people are asking about package management
<sabdfl> OK, is there a specific question?
<Seveas> "will apt be replaced with something else/better"
<sabdfl> NEVAH!
<gnomefreak> :)
<sabdfl> well
<sabdfl> there are interesting possibilities, like SMART
<sabdfl> Apt is not very maintained right now
<sabdfl> and smart would be an easier codebase to work with
<sabdfl> it's also a good candidate for creating collaboration with other distros, like.... opensuse :-)
<sabdfl> so i'm open to this
<sabdfl> of course, the tech board would have the final say on that one
<Seveas> <torkiano> QUESTION: What about changue linux kernel  or make special version of Ubuntu  with Opensolariss kernel if it is GLP'ed
<gnomefreak> Seveas: whos question was that? did he mean dpkg or parts of dpkg like apt
<sabdfl> torkiano: i would like to see Ubuntu-on-OpenSolaris
<sabdfl> there are some legal questions, grey areas rather than outright problems
<sabdfl> ideally, the SUN libc and libm would need to be BSD or GPL'd
<sabdfl> or LGPL'd
<sabdfl> alternatively the glibc would need to be ported
<sabdfl> but that would leave Solaris apps in a bit of a pickle
<sabdfl> if those can be resolved, then yes, I would like to see Ubuntu embrace OpenSolaris
<sabdfl> there is a lot fo great work in the BSD universe
<sabdfl> we should be trying harder to collaborate with NetBSD and FreeBSD for example
<sabdfl> if this is an area that interests you, please go ahead and see if you can muster up a team :-)
<Seveas> <neuro_> QUESTION: Three years ago, Ubuntu Linux didn't exist; where do you see Ubuntu in October/November 2009?
<Seveas> (many people asked similar questions)
<sabdfl> neuro_: hopefully continuing to accelerate the awareness and adoption of Ubuntu
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> free software :-)
<sabdfl> i think we have made amazing progress
<sabdfl> i'm very proud of the work this community produces, and very happy to be helping to underwrite that
<sabdfl> we can change the world
<sabdfl> so lets keep at it
<Seveas> <slam> QUESTION: What is your personal motivation behind the projects you started? Why are you doing it?
<sabdfl> slam: i benefited hugely from the existence of free linux
<sabdfl> that's how i got to build Thawte, it made it possible to build something great from the tip of africa that could compete with VC-backed Us companies
<sabdfl> i want to bring that some advantage to desktop users
<sabdfl> so there's a strong philanthropic case for devoting some of my ill-gotten gains to this project
<sabdfl> also, i think we can make it a commercial success
<sabdfl> without compromising and making it a RHEL-style proprietary offering
<sabdfl> where you have to pay for the privilege
<sabdfl> and without putting Flash and codecs in either
<sabdfl> so i'm challenged by the commercial game and opportunity too
<Seveas> <LjL> QUESTION: How do you see the future of office suites in Ubuntu? Currently, OpenOffice.org is shipped by default in both Ubuntu and Kubuntu. Would you favor a switch to KOffice in Kubuntu, once it is regarded as "mature enough"? OpenOffice.org is practically the only desktop application in Kubuntu that is not KDE-based.
<sabdfl> interesting question
<sabdfl> on the one hand we all benefit hugely from openoffice, because it is cross-platform
<sabdfl> it has become a real wedge helping people wean themselves off proprietary software
<sabdfl> they can run it on windows, then move to linux
<sabdfl> on the other hand, the project is in dire need of some real community action
<sabdfl> i sometimes wish that we had all focused our energy on KOffice and GnomeOffice
<sabdfl> because they are both much more agile, much leaner, much faster...
<sabdfl> much better poster children for what free software apps should feel like
<sabdfl> i think the OO.o team are facing a fork in the road
<sabdfl> if the KOffice guys can match their MS office interop, then I think KOffice would be a better bet
<Seveas> <stefg> QUESTION: What's your opinion on MS tightening the license-policy on Vista? Will this help promote Ubuntu, since a lot of people dont't want MS looking over their shoulder every three weeks?
<sabdfl> stefg: yes, if MS really enforces their licensing of Vista, and makes it impossible to run it without paying for it, this will hugely drive the adoption of desktop linux
<Seveas> I have one of my own: would you return to space if you had the chance?
<sabdfl> Seveas: well, technically, i have the chance every April and October when a Soyuz goes to the ISS :-)
<Seveas> hehe
<Seveas> ok, next:
<Seveas> <woodwizzle> QUESTION: How about fluendo's solution to mp3 codecs. They purchased the rights and then made a plugin that can be legally used in lgpl players such as banshee
<sabdfl> i would love to go up again, it's a huge privilege
<sabdfl> but i feel i want to earn that privilege by doing something awesome on the ground
<sabdfl> something noone else can pull off
<sabdfl> and that's ubuntu
<sabdfl> also
<sabdfl> i am waiting for the possibilities in space to open up
<sabdfl> for example, a new craft, or the ability to push a Soyuz further or faster than anyone else :-)
<sabdfl> woodwizzle: it's still binary-only, AFAIK, with redistribution issues
<sabdfl> so we won't ship that
<sabdfl> if i'm wrong, someone please holler!
<Seveas> sabdfl: afaik it's open source
<Seveas> and they offer free patent licenses to redistributors
<Seveas> (free as in gratis)
<sabdfl> however, we WILL make it very easy for you to activate MP3 support if you can legally do so
<sabdfl> for example, if you have a patent licence, or for research purposes, or if there are no relevant patents in your jurisdiction
<sabdfl> Seveas: i'm intrigued, happy to hear more on this
<Seveas> sabdfl, after the session ;)
<Seveas> Something asked a few times: Will PPC support be discontinued soon?
<sabdfl> We will make a final decision on PPC for Feisty by the end of next week
<sabdfl> if there is sufficient community contribution on this, then the community port can be just as good as a Canonical-supported one
<sabdfl> we would keep the builds in place, but not block the release if things failed to build
<sabdfl> so if people step up to unblock issues when they occur, then PPC would be on the same footing as it currently is
<Seveas> sabdfl, will "but ps3 is ppc" be a valid argument? (asked a few times as well)
<sabdfl> the extra architecture costs us a lot in terms of testing bandwidth at release time, and figuring out issues like how to deal with the live CD are compicated
<sabdfl> if SONY fund Ubuntu-on-PS3 then I guarantee it will happen :-)
<sabdfl> if not, then its hard to rationalise it on either philanthropic or commercial grounds
<Seveas> <Sanne> QUESTION: Do you think that the free software community could be an example for other areas of human interaction, to show the benefits of not being primarily money motivated, but cause motivated?
<sabdfl> Sanne: yes
<sabdfl> it's not so much money-vs-cause
<sabdfl> as collaboration and participation
<sabdfl> i think this meme will spread to every industry
<sabdfl> commerce will of course continue
<sabdfl> salaries get paid
<sabdfl> contracts get issued
<sabdfl> but people will find a way to express their personal interests as community-owned work
<sabdfl> like wikipedia
<Seveas> A few from the "How can we" department that relate to the same issue: How can we coax GPU companies to open up? How can we attract game developers and users?
<sabdfl> first we have to make them care about the linux platform
<sabdfl> that means - get tens, hundreds of millions of users
<sabdfl> without that, they have no incentive even to spend the money to THINK about this question
<sabdfl> second, we have to show them that they will benefit by being open
<sabdfl> that their cost of production will be reduced
<sabdfl> and their quality will go up
<sabdfl> i would like to hear from Intel on their experiences, for example
<sabdfl> third, we have to show them that their competitive position will improve
<sabdfl> so, if we push Nvidia users to ATI, and there are lots of users who make buying decisions based on that, then Nvidia will notice and act accordingly
<sabdfl> we need to gather leverage, and then use it
<Seveas> <Seveas> <gip> Can you ask: QUESTION: How many people is actively using Ubuntu today? How is the market share increment now?
<sabdfl> I think 4-8 million use Ubuntu directly
<sabdfl> probably double that if you factor in derivatives too
<Seveas> <gummibaerchen> QUESTION What about the mysterious "landscape-client", Mark?
<sabdfl> gummibaerchen: it's a GPL piece of code that will allow you to get web-based monitoring of your machine in future, through a service from Canonical
<sabdfl> we will encourage other ISV's to extent that GPL client to monitor other aspects of the system, for example, database performance
<sabdfl> to make it easy to manage large numbers of Ubuntu machines
<Seveas> <tom56> QUESTION: What are the chances of seing some Ubuntu-branded online services. For instance, a calendar that shows your appointments on every (internet connected) Ubuntu computer you log into, or perhaps some Ubuntu-branded email/webmail?
<sabdfl> tom56: damn, that's a good idea!
<sabdfl> i'd like to provide a syncing service, and we do have ubuntu.net so...
<Seveas> Ubuntu Live!
<Seveas> <ryeyawn> QUESTION: With Java now under the GPL will Sun's JDK/JRE be included in Fiesty?  Also, do you anticipate some of Sun's Java Desktop being included in future releases of Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> ryeyawn: yes, absolutely, now that SUN has taken that step its just a question of time before Java makes its way to main
<sabdfl> i think the core pieces might be there now
<sabdfl> and it's great that SUN engineers are working to make this possible
<sabdfl> there are still some licence blockers
<Seveas> (we're missing a few core pieces that aren't free yet)
<sabdfl> but sun is committed (I believe) to clearing those as fast as possible
<sabdfl> we won't move pieces to main till they are free
<sabdfl> if you want to help there, i can put you in touch with the right people
<sabdfl> starting with tmarble :-)
<Seveas> there were quite a few questions about including ndiswrapper by default, i think. or, perhaps the broader question -- How to deal with the problem of people with Internet connections that cannot be used by Ubuntu by default, when installing the software to enable them would involve having a working Internet connection in the first place?
<sabdfl> ndiswrapper-by-default is not something i want to wrap my brain around just now
<Seveas> heh
<sabdfl> it's possible
<gnomefreak> heh
<sabdfl> and it would be legal, AFAICS
<sabdfl> if it were proven stable, then it might be a useful last-ditch plan
<sabdfl> for winmodems etc
<sabdfl> tell me about the internet connection issue?
<sabdfl> is this PPPOE?
<gnomefreak> sabdfl: wireless
<Seveas> More like "not having one"
<sabdfl> i would like to see PPPOE solved, if anyone else would like to help then please get in touch with me
<Seveas> it's not easy to install packages/upgrade UBuntu without one
<gnomefreak> the users that need it have no conection to instll it
<sabdfl> not having one because there are no linux drivers, even non-free ones?
<Seveas> in general
<Seveas> not being connected
<sabdfl> i believe cjwatson is working on the ability to add drivers at install time
<sabdfl> so folks could use a USB drive to add a driver they downloaded using <cough> some other OS</cough>
<Seveas> <ToonArmy> QUESTION: What needs to be done to push FOSS software in UK schools today? I have come through schools that have used almost exclusively Microsoft software and other propriatery software solutions, for almost everything. It could save huge amounts of money on licensing etc. and the Vista upgrade looks a scary one for most education establishments.
<gnomefreak> sabdfl: thats what we have them do but im hearing its on alternate cd
<sabdfl> gnomefreak: i thought it was on Live CD, but please check with cjwatson (or Colin, please chip in if you're watching)
<sabdfl> ToonArmy: we should not push the "save huge amounts of money" button
<sabdfl> instead, we should ask how the govt plans to provide for:
<sabdfl>  - musician pupils
<gnomefreak> if he dont answer i will get up with him in next 24 hours to find out
<sabdfl>  - statistics pupils
<sabdfl>  - physics pupils
<sabdfl>  - language pupils
<sabdfl>  - comp sci pupils
<sabdfl> ...
<sabdfl> the point is that, with free software, we have a HUGE variety of tools for teaching and learning
<sabdfl> really, really wide variety
<sabdfl> the equivalent in proprietary software is (a) not possible to find and (b) enormously expensive
<sabdfl> Windows+Office is not "it"
<sabdfl> we have to broaden people's perception about what computers can achieve in learning
<sabdfl> and show that free software is the only way, really, to deliver all of that
<Seveas> <Bourlotieris> QUESTION: Best and worst moment since Ubuntu project started?
<sabdfl> Bourlotieris: dapper release, and the x update mistake
<Seveas> <sadiq> QUESTION: Can we learn something from Apple in terms of getting Windows users to 'switch'? What are your views on OS X?
<sabdfl> sadiq: i think we can learn a lot from apple in terms of "what users want"
<sabdfl> however, we don't want to go down their proprietary road of AAC-hell
<sabdfl> OS X is a testament to what is possible with end user experience on UNIX
<sabdfl> so lets show that it can be even better
<sabdfl> and even more open
<Seveas> <amachu> QUESTION: Mark, Ubuntu Server, How about comparing/ competing with red-hat clusters?
<sabdfl> amachu: interesting
<sabdfl> there are a lot of scientists that build their own HPC platforms
<sabdfl> it would be nice to get enough of them together to work on a REALLY-SCALABLE-BUNTU
* Seveas raises his hand
<sabdfl> HA-clusters are slightly different
<sabdfl> that is more enterprise-ish
<sabdfl> chat with fabbione, i think he wants to see Ubuntu HA clustering rock
<sabdfl> Seveas?
<Seveas> (as in: Ubuntu rocks on the hpc cluster I built ;))
<sabdfl> rock star :-)
<Seveas> <jonasj> QUESTION: Let me rephrase my question: If the Nouveau drivers manage to provide working 3D on nvidia cards, would a certain decrease in performance be acceptable to avoid using the nonfree driver by default?
<sabdfl> jonasj: yes
<sabdfl> at least, IMO
<Seveas> <guglielf> QUESTION: sabdfl, a few municipal administrations in europe are in the process of implementing linux for their infrastructure. How could ubuntu take part in that?
<sabdfl> guglielf: we could provide a forum for the specific items they want to collaborate with the community on, and of course they could contract to get commercial support etc with Canonical. so hopefully ubuntu should represent the best of both worlds to them.
<sabdfl> if you know folks involved, please encourage them to look more closely at ubuntu
<Seveas> <arjun> QUESTION: Debian call themselves 'GNU/Linux'. Why not you guys?
<sabdfl> arjun: we do give appropriate credit to the GNU community
<sabdfl> both personally (i always make a point of this in presentations and speeches) and on the website etc
<sabdfl> i'm not going to get drawn into calling it "GNU/Linux for Human Beings"
<sabdfl> that's just... silly, and I don't mind you quoting me on that
<Amaranth> and then the first thing you have to explain to a new user is what a recursive acronym is :)
<sabdfl> the FSF and Gnu project have breathed life into the free software movement
<sabdfl> we should always credit them with that
<sabdfl> but also, remember there's a huge amount that we depend on every day that comes from other parts of the free software community
<sabdfl> look at the amazing work of the apache foundation
<sabdfl> so to my mind its about giving credit where its due
<sabdfl> debian, fsf, even the much-maligned OSI
<sabdfl> apache, bsd, UNIX... we stand on the shoulders of giants
<Seveas> <amachu> QUESTIONS: How satisfied are you with the LoCo Teams ? Few words about them?
<sabdfl> ok, my fingers are letting me know that i'm talking too much
<Seveas> and the next session starts shortly
<sabdfl> LoCo teams are an AWESOME part of our community
<Seveas> I think we should make this the last question, so we have time for the "thank you" rain that will follow
<sabdfl> often when I visit countries and run into the LoCo teams i'm very humbled by the energy and advocacy they bring
<sabdfl> its an amazing thing, to interact with people face to face and help them learn about this free software thing
<sabdfl> i never read about linux in a magazine
<sabdfl> actually, thats not true
<sabdfl> i read about it a LOT
<sabdfl> and online
<sabdfl> i just never did anything about it
<sabdfl> till someone GAVE me a stack of slackware floppies
<sabdfl> that's the power of real-world advocacy
<sabdfl> i'd like to figure out how we help the LoCo teams get more organised
<sabdfl> give them better materials
<sabdfl> help them work with the media
<sabdfl> but in general, those that are active are fantastic
<Seveas> sabdfl, how many more questions do you want?
<sabdfl> lat two
<sabdfl> last two
<Seveas> ok
<Seveas> <suzan> QUESTION: what about a some ubuntu-commercials like the apple "switch" ones, or some video-contest like the firefox-flicks? it would be nice to see some Ubuntu users in a video. it's time to show, that linux-users are not only "geeks" and "nerds" anymore. :-)
<sabdfl> suzan: cool idea! why not talk to the ubuntu-studio guys about that?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v suzan]  by ChanServ
<Seveas> <stefg> QUESTION: Sabdfl, why are you taking all the trouble, like competing MS, running a distro and making it big... Wouldn't it be nicer to spent the whole day poolside with a cool drink ?
<sabdfl> stefg: well, some days....
<sabdfl> thing is, it would be boring to do nothing. i've had my time off between projects, and i just get itchy
<sabdfl> i start thinking about how the world is changing
<sabdfl> and how to make it GO FASTER
<sabdfl> and this is the best thing for me to be doing right now
<sabdfl> also
<sabdfl> well, that's enough
<sabdfl> thanks guys
<sabdfl> thank you for the contribution everyone makes to this project
<sabdfl> makes me very proud to be a part of it
<Seveas> Thank YOU for taking the time and effort to answer all the questions
* Amaranth claps
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by Seveas
<sabdfl> seveas, thanks for playing cop, as always
<pitti> thanks sabdfl
<ailean> thanks for staying mark - please do improve the help for people who want to help. i need guidance and find it difficult to get it. I'll make sure I send a note too :)
<rulus> Wooohhoooo thanks Mark! Mark's cool!
<polvi> thanks!! :)
<topyli> thanks sabdfl!
<_jmk_> kudoz to sabdfl, great project
<LjL> Thank you sabdfl
<sven-tek> encrypt your hardisc!
<Webspot> thanks
<noela> it's been educative and amusing, sabdfl , muchas gracias, thanks for everything!
<ToonArmy> Thanks!!
<sabdfl> so, who's up next?
<Jonathon> Thanks for your time, sabdfl
<mogwai> Cheers - keep up the good work!
<lotusleaf> Bruce Dickinson is god
<somerville32> Thanks!
<brent_cool> THANK YOU!
<maccabeus> thanks marc!!
<Sanne> Thank you for a very enjoyable and informative Ask Mark session :)
<suzan> thanks a lot!
<woodwizzle> w0000000t!
<NickH_> do it
<pitti> sabdfl: I am :)
<rdp> Thank you!
<Slike> thx!
<Chris7mas> thank you
<ktogias> thanks sabdfl !!!
<brent_cool> FTW!
<stgraber> thx
<wedderburn> cheers
<Amaranth> YIKES
<suzan> and, ubuntu need more women! ;-)
<Metro> Thanks Mark
* pitti grabs the Big Patch Axe
<yipe> YAY!
<arjun> thanks!
<_MMA_> METAL!!! \m/
<sabdfl> rock on, pitti
<jonasj> thank you very much for the last two hours, and for ubuntu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-v suzan]  by ChanServ
* cga showers
<Bourlotieris> Thank YOU Mark
<sire1> Thankiu for interesting talk :0
<Vhata> kram sknaht
<LjL> Amaranth: well what did you expect
<thefisist> really interesting. thanks mark
<sire1> :)
<nemphis> thx mark
<torkiano> plas,plas,plas
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo sabdfl Amaranth]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo Seveas gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<gummibaerchen> thx+
<exo-griffith> thank you, Mark.
* arjun is off to study
<ktogias> clap clap clap
<ryeyawn> Thanks for everything Mark.
* yipe applauds
<Bert> thanks
<gummibaerchen> was great
* xeruno was late :S
<reaton> thanks mark
<ailean> sabdfl, must feel like a rock star
* brent_cool claps
<samgee> thx a bunch
<corstar> Thanks to the ubuntu team for making all of this possible. VIVA UBUNTU
<somerville32> Woot! :D
<yipe> thanks for making linux good enough for my mom to switch!
<johnnybuoy> I can write whatever
<Amaranth> LjL: Actually I expected the volume to make me lag. :)
<johnnybuoy> YAY
<PhilStone> thanks mark
<johnnybuoy> woot
<ktogias> VIVA UBUNTU!
<tim_> Thank You Very Much
* Admiral_Chicago skipped class for this
<LjL> Amaranth: well, it *is* making me lag, but then i'm on konversation
<Lesley> Tx! have a greeeaaaat evening!
<_MMA_> http://ubuntustudio.org and #ubuntustudio on Freenode
<lotusleaf> sabdfl for president 2008
<somerville32> Woo!
<Morph> For anyone in or planning on being in Southern California in february 2007, the Southern California Linux Expo will have an Ubuntu presence..http://www.socallinuxexpo.org
<Amaranth> Admiral_Chicago: me too
<topyli> hehe
<brent_cool> i've got my mom, dad, and girlfriend using ubuntu now, THANKYOU EVERYONE!
* xeruno is sad
<yipe> yay sabdfl
<lorenzo> sabdfl: Thanks very much for Ubuntu.  Keep up the good work.
* ypsila is proud to see that enourmous energy and to have the luck to give her little part
<Admiral_Chicago> Amaranth: sweet
<zch> Vielen Dank
* arjun hasan exam next morn
<Seveas> Next up is pitti
<ogra> thanks sabdfl
<tm|ubuntu> Morph: yay
<lotusleaf> how easy is it to use a hookah in space?
<topyli> cool brent_cool !
<mogwai> kudos to you and the community
<Seveas> Can we please return to "chatter in #ubuntu-classroom-chat" mode
<exo-griffith> brent_cool, that's cool. Good job!
<jorgp> thanks sabdfl,
<brent_cool> i know!
* pitti rings the classroom bell for "Patching source packages"
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o pitti]  by ChanServ
* pitti clears his throat
<corstar> Mark said there are "4-8 million Ubuntu users". Man, that ROCKS!!
<pitti> WELCOME TO MY CLASS
<Panzerboy_> hey pitti
<Seveas> hi pitti!
<radix> hooray pitti :)
<Bert> test
<Seveas> failed
<DreamThief> hi pitti
<pitti> I have a rather technical presentation now, for everyone who wants to modify anything in Ubuntu
<highvoltage> win 13
<rulus> can we please set mode to +M
<cga> Seveas, will sabdfl have another session later?
<pitti> just as a quick overview, who is here to learn about patching?
<brent_cool> me
* Seveas raises hand
<_jmk_> check
<jorgp> me me
* Amaranth raises his hand
* somerville32 raises his hand.
<ktogias> me
<amnesia> me
<ssam> me
* ailean raises hand
<corstar> yep
* Chastell raises hand
* SimonAnibal raises his hand.
<acez> me
<thekorn> me
<rulus> me too
<LinuxBA> yep
* highvoltage raises hand :)
<aeig> me
* LjL is, if it wasn't for dinner time
* DreamThief raises hand
<Amaranth> hahaha
* lotusleaf raises a burrito for a yes
<Bert> me too
* ToonArmy and I
<pitti> great!
<mihakriket> me
<Netfinity> me
* GazzaK falls over
<romey> me
<pitti> ok, time's limited, let's start
<adrian3> me too
* LjL sets mode #ubuntu-classroom +m
<pitti> if anyone has any question, or I'm totally uncomprehensible (sorry, I'm German), please do not hesitate to interrupt and ask *immediately*
<pitti> Also, don't bother trying to take notes, we'll sort that out at the end. You can fully concentrate on the discussion and examples.
<zch> me too
* pschulz01 raises hand
<pitti> Let's begin with a little bit of history:
<Amaranth> Settle down guys, we need to let pitti teach us stuff. :)
* DreamThief is german, too
<pitti> == Why use separate patches ==
<pitti> In earlier times, people just applied patches inline (i. e. directly in the source code tree). However, this makes it very hard to extract patches later to modify them, send them upstream, etc. Also this means that new upstream versions are a pain, since they generate a lot of rejections when applying the package diff.gz to them.
<pitti> With split-out patches it is much easier to send them upstream, keep track of them, develop them, etc., since you always see which changes belong together.
<pitti> The ideal state is an unmodified tarball from upstream, plus clean and separate patches, plus the packaging bits in debian/. That means that lsdiff <sourcepackage>.diff.gz only contains debian/.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:nalioth] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Patching Pkgs
<pitti> The first attempts to split-out patches were pretty trivial: storing patches in debian/patches/, and adding some patch/patch -R snippets to debian/rules. This worked for small patches, but provided no tools for editing these patches, updating them for new upstream versions, etc.
<pitti> Thus several standard patch systems were created which are easy to deploy and provide tools for patch juggling and editing.
<dieterd> german too
<rulus> not so fast pls
* pitti will always copy&paste some bits and then wait a bit for people to catch up
<pitti> What I would like to do now is to introduce the most common patch systems and show some hands-on demo how to add a new patch and how to edit one. For this, I will point at a source package from the current dapper archive, quickly explain the patch system, and show how to apply some (braindead) modifications to it. I recommend you to do the same steps in a terminal, so that you get a feeling for the process and can immediately ask questions.
<pitti> everyone you fine with this approach?
<pitti> erm, of course I mean 'from the edgy archive', not dapper
* ailean assumes that all the silent people are fine with the approach
<pschulz01> pitti: Is the package the same in edgy?
<Seveas> pitti, please name the packages now so we can apt-get source them
<pitti> yeah, I don't want it to be entirely theoretical :)
<pitti> If you want to try the stuff yourself, please do the following commands (on edgy) as preparation:
<pitti>   sudo apt-get install dpatch cdbs quilt patchutils
<pitti>   apt-get source cron udev pmount gnome-volume-manager ed xterm
<pitti>   wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/dsrc-new-patch
<pitti>   chmod 755 dsrc-new-patch
<pitti> I deliberately picked the smallest packages I could find
* pitti waits a bit for people to do the preparations; any questions so far?
<dieterd> discussion is to fast to read
<pitti> dieterd: ok, I wait a bit for catching up, please ping me if you guys are ready
<amnesia> it's not him too fast, but the joiners/parters. channels should be invite only once lessons are started
<pitti> yeah, those messages are pretty disturbing
<Seveas> amnesia, set your chat client to ignore them
<pitti> Seveas: quick how-to for xchat?
<amnesia> what's easier, everyone sets their clients or just one +i
<Snarius> pitti, rclick on channel tan
<H3g3m0n> Settings>Advanced>Text Events and delete the Join Part entries (might want to save the list for easy undo)
<Snarius> *tab
<highvoltage> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
<pitti> Snarius: ah, right
<dieterd> Patching Packages - Martin Pitt
<Amaranth> amnesia: We want people to be able to come in later
<pitti> ok, everyone set with the intro and getting source packages?
<Amaranth> amnesia: Schools don't lock their doors on you if you're 5 minutes late
<rulus> mine does :(
<amnesia> Amaranth: they do where I live
<noela> mine did, Amaranth
<noela> lol
<highvoltage> here too
<pitti> OT
<jonh_wendell> pitti, still apt-get sourcing...
<Amaranth> Anyway...
<Chastell> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
<amnesia> ok let's drop it and get on with packaging ;)
<noela> (but you're right)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<pitti> nevermind, for the first bit we don't yet need the packages
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* pitti sets the mode 'cry if I'm too fast, otherwise I assume it's fine'
<ktogias> ready
<pitti> == cron: inline patches ==
<pitti> No patch system at all, nothing much to say about this.  You directly edit the files in the source tree. This is convenient for a simple and quick change, but will bite back for new upstream versions (see above) and is inconvenient for submitting patches upstream, or reviewing for merges.
<pitti> if you do 'lsdiff <package>.diff.gz' and you see changes which are not in debian/, then you probably have such a package
<pitti> (some KDE packages have autoconf stuff directly in the diff.gz, but that is ok)
<pitti> so, I think I do not need to say anything else about cron, unless someone has a question
<dieterd> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html?year=2006&month=11&day=27&hour=15&min=0&sec=0    ----  on my computer it was saying three o clock for ubuntu talk program
<CyberKahn>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
<pitti> ok, no question here
<pitti> so, people, get a grip, now it gets heavy
<pitti> == udev: separate patches, but no patch system ==
<pitti> This case is the most complicated one since you have to do all the hard work manually. In order to make you understand what a patch system does, and to give you a fallback method that will *always* work with any patch system, I handle this first.
<pitti> The good news is that you will seldomly be required to actually do this procedure, I'll come to this again.
<pitti> The general approach is:
<pitti> 1. copy the clean source tree to a temporary directory /tmp/old
<pitti> 2. apply all patches up to the one you want to edit; if you want to create a new patch, apply all existing ones (this is necessary since in general patches depend on previous patches)
<pitti> if you want, you can use debian/rules for this: remove the patches that come *after* the one you want to edit, and call 'debian/rules patch'. The actual name for the patch target varies, I have seen the following ones so far: patch setup apply-patches unpack patch-stamp. You have to look in debian/rules how it is called.
<pitti> 3. copy the whole source tree again: cp -a /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> 4. go into /tmp/new, do your modifications
<pitti> 5. go back into /tmp generate the patch with
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > mypatchname.patch
<pitti> and move the patch to .../debian/patches/mypatchname.patch
<pitti> ^ that's the theory, example will follow shortly (hands-on training)
<jonh_wendell> pitti, take it easy
<jonh_wendell> pitti, i do a lsdiff <package>.diff and got nothing
<pitti> these steps are the general method how any patch is handled
<Seveas> jonh_wendell, zcat package.diff.gz | lsdiff
<pitti> jonh_wendell: that won't work in that form - lsdiff -z package.diff.gz
<pitti> jonh_wendell: -z is for 'accept gzipped files', source packages have a diff.gz, not a .diff
<davmor2>   /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
<pitti> davmor2: 'mind the gap' :)
<pitti> jonh_wendell: settled? or still unclear?
<jonh_wendell> pitti, ok, done
<pitti> in general we want the following diff options:
<pitti> -N -> include new files
<pitti> -u -> unified patches (context diffs are ugly)
<pitti> -r -> recursive
<pitti> -p -> bonus, you can see the name of the affected function in the patch
<pitti> does anyone have a question about the principle method?
<jonh_wendell> pitti, about cron, are you showing a wrong way to package?
<pitti> (I know it's heavy, sorry, that's live; promised, it'll get easier)
<pitti> jonh_wendell: well, it's not exactly 'wrong'
<pitti> jonh_wendell: as long as the package is not heavily modified, or Debian/Ubuntu is essentially the upstream, it's fine
<dieterd> one wrong letter - a mess afterwards
<pitti> but having all patches in a single big lump makes it next to impossible to send stuff upstream, or tell which bit belongs to what
<mwicki> does anybody know how to install e debianpaket whitout root-permission, is it possible to install a debian-paket in a directory??
<pitti> jonh_wendell: also, the tendency is that packages which have 'always' been there, have more 'archaic' build systems and no patch system
<Jon> mwicki: you can unpack it using dpkg-deb -x <package> <directory> as any user who can write to <directory>
<pitti> where as most recently packaged stuff uses a standard packaging system with a standard patch system, now that they are invented
<Jon> mwicki: be warned, though, that doesn't run the pre or post install scripts
<mwicki> but it runs???
<pitti> mwicki: do you need to do that for patching?
<pitti> mwicki: it most probably won't work
<Jon> mwicki: if it's a simple program then you could then run the binaries in it
<Seveas> mwicki, jon: the session is busy enough already, I'd appreciate it if you stick to the topic
<pitti> ok, let's go back to patching udev - an EXAMPLE! \o/
<pitti> open a shell, ready your fingers :)
<pitti> udev example 1, let's create a new patch 90_penguins.patch:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
<pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
<pitti>   debian/rules patch
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
<pitti> that's the preparatory part, now we have a directory we can hack in
<mwicki> i tried to install in the university a paket, where i of corse dont have root permission
<pitti> mwicki: #ubuntu, please
<pitti> mwicki: or #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mwicki> sorry
<pitti> let's do a braindead modification
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti> ^ of course you can also use a normal editor
<pitti> I just use sed so that you can copy&paste the commands without any interactive stuff
* pitti reminds anyone to cry out if there is anything unclear or too fast
<pitti> and now we create a patch between the reference and our new tree
<pitti>   cd ..
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 90_penguins.patch
<pitti>   popd
<pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti>   mv /tmp/90_penguins.patch debian/patches
<pitti> (Ignore the 'recursive directory loop' warnings)
<jonh_wendell> pitti, what does pushd do?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: 'pushd foo' is like 'cd foo', but remembers the last dir and pushes it onto a stack
<pitti> if you then do 'popd', it will return to the directory you have been in when you did 'pushd'
<cbx33> cool
* pitti apologizes for his old skool shell stuff
<StaCk> isn't it like cd - ?
<pitti> StaCk: no, that will go only to the previous dir
<pschulz01> hehe.. Now with SEPenguin support.
<StaCk> uh your right
<lara22> hi guys
<ecki> hey
<pitti> StaCk: you can stack multiple pushd's on top of each other, and allow 'cd' in between
<pitti> Now take a look at your shiny new debian/patches/90_penguins.patch.
<pitti> *uff* :)
<cbx33> pitti, wow that's both useful and scary
<pitti> after that, if you do 'debian/rules patch', you'll see that the patch applies cleanly
<pitti> 
<pitti> so, obviously that's not the end of the wisdom, but if you do these steps a couple of times, you should get a feeling for how to create the most complicated patch conceivable
<pitti> so this procedure is the life safer if anything else fails
<pitti> questions so far?
<pschulz01> pitti: cd new?
<pitti> pschulz01: 'cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new'
<dieterd> result is then a new cd with included patches?
<pitti> pschulz01: we applied all previous patches in /tmp/old, then copied /tmp/old to /tmp/new, and hacked our stuff in /tmp/new
<pitti> dieterd: the result after all of these steps is a single new file debian/patches/90_penguins.patch
<pitti> dieterd: the commands above removed the temporary /tmp/old and /tmp/new trees
<pschulz01> pitti: Neet to copy 90_penguins.patch to new/debian/patches
<pitti> pschulz01: no, it shouldn't go to new
<pitti> pschulz01: it should go to /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
<pitti> (the original source dir, not the temporary working copies in /tmp)
<pschulz01> pitti: Ahh.. ok.
<pitti> any other difficulties? shall I copy the commands again as a block for clarity?
<danilos> pitti: just use the parentheses to make stuff "clearer", like "cp -a /wherever/you/unpacked /tmp/old; (cd /tmp/old; blah...; cd /tmp/new; foo...); rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new" :)
<pitti> danilos: hm, I use newlines for that
* pitti goes on then
<pitti> Pretty much work, isn't it? Since this happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose.
<pitti> that's the script you downloaded as part of the preparations
<pitti> so, please remove debian/patches/90_penguins.patch again
<pitti> yes, I know it was hard to do, but for the sake of demonstration :)
<cbx33> pitti, that's the only way to learn dude
<pschulz01> pitti: OK.. that's better.
<pitti> so, with Pitti's Hackish Script (tm):
<pitti>   dsrc-new-patch 90_penguins.patch
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> that looks slightly better, doesn't it?
<pitti> but I had to torture you with the close-to-the-metal method for the sake of understanding.
<at2000> in which dir to run the script?
<pitti> at2000: in the root of the unpacked source tree
<pitti> at2000: to conform with my previous example, /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
<at2000> ok
<at2000> then it should be "../dsrc-new-patch"
<pitti> at2000: oh, right, you have to specify the path to the scrpit
<dieterd> cu
<jonh_wendell> pitti, is this script the same of cdb... showed yesterday?
<pitti> I have it in my ~/bin, conveniently
<pitti> jonh_wendell: no, not at all
<pitti> jonh_wendell: I'll come to that
<pschulz01> Hmm.. where do I find 'debclean'?
<pitti> pschulz01: sudo apt-get install devscripts
<pschulz01> pitti: Ta.
<pitti> ^ for everyone else, too, sorry; fortgot to mention that
<pitti> forgot, too
<jonh_wendell> pitti, before run  dsrc-new-patch 90_penguins.patch  we have to clean dir, right?
<pschulz01> pitti: It was in the 'recommends'
<pitti> jonh_wendell: if you just unpacked the tree, it shuoldn't be necessary
<pitti> ok, we need to go on
<pitti>  let's stay at udev a bit and do the second example
<pitti> I promise, this will be the last complicated issue in this lesson
<pitti> but it might teach you to never ever do a package without a proper patch system :)
<pitti> dsrc-new-patch is currently too dumb to edit existing patches, or to put patches somewhere else than the top of the patch stack. If you need this, then you need to do the manual approach. Assume we want to edit 50-result-whitespace.patch.
<jonh_wendell> pitti, as i've run debian/rules patch with 90-penguim, i have to clean it
<pitti> jonh_wendell: ah, right
<pitti> This already existing patch 50-result-whitespace.patch does not depend on the previous patches, so it's a bit easier that way, too:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
<pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
<pitti> nothing new so far
<pitti> but note that we did not apply any patch (since we assume that 50-result-whitespace.patch does not depend on its predecessors)
<pitti>   patch -Nlp1 < debian/patches/50-result-whitespace.patch
<pitti> above will apply the current version of the patch, so that you can edit it
<pitti> now we have the *original* change in /tmp/new, which we now want to modify
<pitti> so, let's do another braindead change:
<pitti>   sed -i '1 s/$/***** HELLO WORLD ****/' udev_selinux.c
<pitti> or any other change you quickly want to do in your favourite editor, of course
<pitti> so, again we now have the original version in /tmp/old, and our old and new patch in /tmp/new
<pitti> so let's do the patch:
<pitti>   cd ..
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 50-result-whitespace.patch
<pitti>   popd
<pitti>   mv /tmp/50-result-whitespace.patch debian/patches
<pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> Now debian/patches/50-result-whitespace.patch contains both the original change and our modification of the first line of the source file.
* pitti wonders whether he managed to kill his complete audience now
<pitti> but promised, from now on it will get really easy :)
<pitti> any questions? is the issue of patch dependencies clear to everyone?
<jonh_wendell> pitti, how do i know if a patch depends on others or not?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: in general you should assume that each patch depends on the previous one
<pitti> jonh_wendell: they *don't* if they patch a file that hasn't been patched before
<pitti> or they patch it on a completely different position
<pitti> e.g., if debian/patches/1_foo.patch changes foo.c, line 5
<pitti> and debian/patches/2_bar.patch changes foo.c at line 6
<pitti> then patch 2 definitively depends on patch 1
<jonh_wendell> pitti, ok
<at2000> is unified patch format better eliminating patch dependency?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: a (non-solid) rule of thumb is: if you can apply the patch alone on the unmodified source tree, it's independent
<pitti> at2000: no, not at all
<pschulz01> pitti: Back with you.. it had to do a 'debian/rules clean' to cleanup the source.
<pitti> unidiff vs. context diff is purely a matter of readability
<at2000> ic
<jonh_wendell> pitti, will you talk about cdbs-edit-patch which was showed to us yesterday?
<pitti> patch dependency is an inherent property of patches modifying the same thing
<pitti> not a question of a particular patch format
<pitti> jonh_wendell: I will, it's the next topic
<pitti> anything settled so far?
<pitti> Since this is so hideously complicated, patch systems were invented to aid you with that.
<pitti> Let's look at the most popular ones now (they are sufficient to allow you to patch about 90% of the archive's source packages; for the rest you have to resort to the manual approach above).
<pitti> == pmount: cdbs with simple-patchsys ==
<pitti> cdbs' simple-patchsys.mk module matches its name, it has no bells and whistles whatsoever. However, it is pretty popular since it is sufficient for most tasks, and long ago I wrote a script 'cdbs-edit-patch' which most people can live with pretty well. This script is contained in the normal cdbs package.
<pitti> You just supply the name of a patch to the script, and depending on whether it already exists or not, it will create a new patch or edit an existing one.
<pitti> simple-patchsys is the cdbs module that 90% of all cdbs-using source packages will use
<pitti> BTW, "cdbs-edit-patch" is slightly misleading, since it actually only applies to simple-patchsys.mk. You can also use other cdbs patch system plugins, such as dpatch or quilt.
* dancefm slaps ktogias
<pitti> everyone please look in debian/patches, debian/rules of pmount to get a feeling how it looks like
<pitti> so, let's mess up pmount a bit
<pitti> and add a new patch
* ktogias slaps dancefm 
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/pmount-0.9.13
<pitti>   cdbs-edit-patch 03-simple-readme.patch
<pitti>   echo 'This should document pmount' > README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> easy, isn't it?
<pitti> check debian/patches/03-simple-readme.patch for the result
<pitti> this will take care of applying all patches that need to be applied, can change patches in the middle of the stack, and also create new ones
<pitti> Editing an already existing patch works exactly the same way, so I won't give a demo
* pitti waits for a sign of life
<jonh_wendell> cdbs-edit-patch rocks
<pitti> yeah, unfortunately it only really works for packages that use cdbs
<jonh_wendell> pitti, how do i know if a package uses cdbs?
<pitti> which a good part of Gnome-related packages do
<pschulz01> pitti: What does cdbs stand for?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: debian/rules includes files from /usr/share/cdbs
<pitti> jonh_wendell: and build-depends on cdbs
<pitti> pschulz01: common debian build system
<pschulz01> Ta
<pitti> it's a very modular abstraction of boilerplate build rules, patch systems, etc.
<at2000> when I cdbs-edit-patch the same diff, it results in 2 diffs concatenated in the same file?
<pitti> at2000: if you edit two different files, yes
<pitti> at2000: in general, it will merge the old and new patch
<at2000> perhaps I've done something wrong
<jonh_wendell> pitti, when we make a patch, should we add entries in debian/changelog file too?
<pschulz01> pitti: This makes creating patches very easy :-)
<pitti> jonh_wendell: if you intend to publish this, yes, by all means
<pitti> pschulz01: \o/
<pitti> can I go on?
<jonh_wendell> sure
<pitti> time pressure...
<pitti> == ed: dpatch ==
<pitti> dpatch is a pretty robust and proven patch system which also ships a script 'dpatch-edit-patch'
<pitti>  The two most important things you should be aware of:
<pitti>  * dpatch does not apply debian/patches/*, but instead applies all patches mentioned in debian/patches/00list, in the mentioned order. That means that you do not have to rely on asciibetical ordering of the patches and can easily disable patches, but you have to make sure to not forget to update 00list if you add a new patch.
<pitti> (forgetting to update 00list is a common cause of followup uploads)
<pitti>  * dpatch patches are actually scripts that are executed, not just patches fed to 'patch'. That means you can also do fancy things like calling autoconf or using sed in a dpatch if you want.
<pitti> using dpatch for non-native patches is rare, and normally you do not need to worry about how a .dpatch file looks like
<pitti> but I think it's important to mention it
<pitti> so if you ever want to replace *all* instances of Debian with Ubuntu in all files, write a dpatch with a small shell script that uses sed
<pitti> instead of doing a 300 KB static patch which won't apply to the next version anyway
<pitti> The manpage is very good and has examples, too, so I will only give an example here:
<Seveas> smart
<pitti> This will edit an already existing patch and take care that all previous patches are applied in order:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/ed-0.2
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch 05_ed.1-warning-fix
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti> so that's exactly like cdbs-edit-patch
<pitti> well, dpatch-edit-patch even has shell completion (!)
<pitti> s/shell/tab/
<pitti> ok, now we edited a patch, that's pretty easy, right?
<pitti> now let's create a new one; this is different from cdbs-e-p, due to the explicit '00list' file
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch foo.dpatch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti>   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
<pitti> ^ this will append 'foo.dpatch' to debian/patches/00list
<pitti> This will create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to the already existing 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch. If your patch is very confined and does not depend on other patches, you can leave out the second argument.
<pitti> alright?
<pitti> there is actually yet another patch system I wanted to introduce (quilt), but I'll skip this for time reasons
<Seveas> you could continue after simon finished talking bugs
<pitti> maybe we can get to that on Thursday, or I'll explain it separately
<pitti> and there is existing documentation anyway
<pitti> so, just some more theoretic words, which you can use to calm down your fingers :)
<pitti> === A glimpse into the future ===
<pitti> As you saw, Debian source packages do not have any requirements wrt. structure, patch systems, etc., other source package systems like SRPM are much stricter wrt that. This of course means more flexibility, but also much more learning overhead.
<pitti> As a member of the security team I can tell tales of the pain of a gazillion different source package layouts... :)
<pitti> Therefore some clever people sat together the other day to propose a new design which would both give us a new and unified source package and patch system that uses bzr (with a quilt-like workflow). This would also integrate packages and patches much better into Launchpad and revision control in general.
<pitti> Please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages if you are interested in this.
<pitti> ah, and of course:
<pitti> === Notes ===
<pitti> (apart from the obligatory channel log from fabbione)
<pitti> There is also a wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources which provides most of above information in a more convenient format. However, it might be slightly out of date (it's from dapper times). Feel free to update the page and and add missing bits.
<jonh_wendell> pitti, we should add manually foo.dpatch in 00list, right?
<pitti> so let's spend the rest of the time for Q&A
<pitti> fire away :)
<pitti> jonh_wendell: right
<pitti> jonh_wendell: that's what I did with
<pitti> <pitti>   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
<pitti> <pitti> ^ this will append 'foo.dpatch' to debian/patches/00list
<at2000> what are pros and cons of quilt?
<jonh_wendell> sorry
<pitti> at2000: hm, matter of taste, mainly
<pitti> at2000: the patching workflow is not really different
<snail> pitti: wiki page looks really good
<at2000> so why not just stick to cdbs, what most packages use?
<pitti> the wiki page explains quilt as well, BTW
<ajmitch> pitti: has there been any more progress on the NoMoreSourcePackages spec?
<pitti> so if you got a general feeling for the topic now, you should be able to read the wiki page
<pitti> at2000: we cannot prescribe Debian to change source packages to our wishes
<pitti> at2000: also, cdbs is not the unanimous solution for Ubuntu devs either
<pitti> some people really hate it
<at2000> ic
<pitti> ajmitch: bzr-wise, yes, but there's no LP support yet
<pitti> ajmitch: and it won't come in the near future, there are much more pressing TODOs for soyuz ATM
<pitti> I know it was hard stuff, I hope I didn't kill too many listeners
<pitti> any feedback for me?
<jonh_wendell> pitti, thank you
<pitti> (but patching source packages is not easy...)
<amnesia> pitti: you did good, thanks
<pitti> amnesia: were you able to follow the examples? I didn't see many questions
<snail> pitti: i know this is a little off topic, but what's the recommended form of documentation for packages (ANSI C, commandline app, internationalisation crucial) ?
<pschulz01> pitti: I thought it was good.. I've bee through the wiki page, but the step by step examples with real packages was very useful.
<Seveas> pitti, you were great :)
<jonh_wendell> pitti, any talk about debdiff? is it a diff of a diff?
<pitti> snail: that's a very broad question, let's do that in #u-c-chat
<amnesia> pitti: I was just reading, I'm in CS/IT myself so it was enough for me, sorry
<ajmitch> pitti: right, I hadn't seen any work done on the bzr plugin that I heard would only take a few days to do :)
<pitti> jonh_wendell: 'debdiff' is a tool that gives you a diff between two complete source packages
<thekorn> pitti: thanks nice job
<pitti> jonh_wendell: so, if you debdiff two source packages which include patches, then yes, you'll get diffs of diffs
<amnesia> pitti: but from my side, yes I could follow you pretty good :)
<ajmitch> pitti: the session was good, for the bits I was watchign :)
<pitti> thanks guys
<at2000> thanks martin
<jonh_wendell> 1 hour is very short :(
<amnesia> yeah but it should be good for a starter
<pitti> would it have been better to first explain the tools and then do the manual approach?
* pitti will try this on Thursday
<jonh_wendell> oh, we have one more talk, great
<amnesia> pitti: thursday is the same?
* pitti hands the microphone to sfllaw 
<pitti> amnesia: more or less
<Seveas> pitti, no, doing manual first is definitely better
<pitti> followup discussion of patch systems -> #ubuntu-classroom-chat, please
<Seveas> then you know what the tools are magically doing
<pitti> Seveas: that's what I thought, too
<amnesia> pitti: I would keep this order
<amnesia> yeah exactly
<pitti> ok
<pitti> thanks everyone
<ajmitch> thanks pitti
<jonh_wendell> thanks pitti !
<amnesia> maybe point this out, that "you need to do this now to know what really needs to be done in the background"
<pitti> amnesia: right
<amnesia> and you always said it will just get easier :)
<amnesia> so you made the listeners feel good, that's important
<sfllaw> Good afternoon.
<sfllaw> Welcome to my talk about the Ubuntu BugSquad.
<Bourlotieris> hello
<sfllaw> For the purposes of clarity, please limit discussions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  If you want to ask a question, just write "sfllaw: I have a question about..." in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll answer it at the approriate juncture.
<sfllaw> Thanks!
<sfllaw> ---------------------------------------
<sfllaw> Ubuntu is one of the most popular GNU/Linux distributions out there.  And it also has one of the smallest development teams for its size.
<sfllaw> The secret to this is huge community involvement.  We have hundreds of people who help with packaging, translations, technical writing, and bug management.
<sfllaw> And boy do we have a lot of bugs.  About 300 to 400 new bug reports get filed every day from users, from stable releases like Dapper to bleeding edge stuff from Feisty.
<sfllaw> The first people to look at these reports are the BugSquad.  We do a very important task, drinking from this firehose.  And that's to make sure that the reports that remain in the bug tracking system are useful.
<sfllaw> You can find our bug tracking system at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
<sfllaw> Right now, it holds over 20000 open bug reports, spread across the entire distribution.  That includes main, restricted, universe, and multiverse.
<sfllaw> That's a lot of bugs.  The source of these reports can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/yf4hq9
<sfllaw> These are untriaged reports: ones which have never had a human eye look at them.  It's likely that they are missing information, duplicate another report, are filed against the wrong package, etc.  Or, if you're lucky, they're perfect.
<sfllaw> :)
<sfllaw> To triage a bug report, you need to do a few things.
<sfllaw> First you have to determine if it's actually a bug.  The easiest ones have crash reports in them.  Let's go find one.
<sfllaw> To start, we go to http://launchpad.net  Click on "The Ubuntu distribution"
<sfllaw> In the search box, let's look for a popular package.  Bash is a good one to try, so let's ask for that.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o sfllaw]  by nalioth
<sfllaw> Click on 'Source Package "bash" in Ubuntu' to be taken to its package page.
<sfllaw> This shows you Bash within the context of the Ubuntu distribution.  Bash also has another page, a product page, which we won't look at right now.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o pitti]  by nalioth
<sfllaw> In the left sidebar, you should see a "Bugs" link.  Click on that and you'll be taken to the bug tracker.  This will list all the bugs inside bash right now.
<sfllaw> There are quite a few untriaged bugs, but they are intermixed with triaged ones.  Let's narrow down our search to only show untriaged ones.  Start by clicking the "Advanced search" link.
<sfllaw> You want to make sure that:
<sfllaw>   Status = Unconfirmed only
<sfllaw>   Importance = Undecided only
<sfllaw>   Assignee = Nobody
<sfllaw> Click the "Search" button.
<sfllaw> You should end up at http://tinyurl.com/yawhpj which gives you a nice list of bugs to look at.
<sfllaw> Bug 57413 looks like a promising crash.  Click on its description and it will open up.  You can also get to this bug by going to http://launchpad.net/bugs/57413
<sfllaw> You see that the bug reporter has included his crash dump, which was caught by apport, our automated crash profiler.  But Longer hasn't really given us enough information to solve the problem.
<sfllaw> Here's the minimum information for a complete bug report:
<sfllaw>   1. Version of the software.  Is it in Dapper, Edgy, Feisty?  What about a specific version number?
<sfllaw>   2. Steps to reproduce the bug.
<sfllaw>   3. What was expected to happen.
<sfllaw>   4. What actually happened.
<sfllaw> Since this bug is incomplete, we'll want to ask for more information.  You do that by taking responsibility for the bug and having a conversation with the reporter.
<sfllaw> Implicitly, we know the answers to 3 and 4, because Bash crashed unexpectedly.
<sfllaw> And the crash report has the version of bash buried inside (3.1-5ubuntu1).
<sfllaw> Still, we need to ask for reproduction steps.
<sfllaw> If you're logged in, you can click on the "bash (Ubuntu)" task table up near the top.  This allows you to modify the state of the bug.
<sfllaw> There are some fields there:
<sfllaw>   Package: this is the source package of the bug.  Bash is correct for this one.
<sfllaw>   Status: change this to Needs Info.  This means other people won't try to triage this bug.
<sfllaw>   Assigned to: Me.  You're claiming responsibility for having a conversation with the reporter.
<sfllaw>   Comment on this change: Here we should ask the reporter for more information.
<sfllaw>   E-mail me about changes to this bug report: Yes.  This will subscribe you to any new comments about this report.
<sfllaw> shawarma points out that apport, which generated this crash dump, wasn't in Dapper.
<sfllaw> So it must be an Edgy bug.
<sfllaw> But apport also tells you the difference between an Edgy bug and a Feisty bug.
<sfllaw> at2000 asks: who should modify these fields?
<pitti> (in the DistroRelease: field)
<sfllaw> You, as the triager, get to set these fields.
<at2000> so someone officially in the BugSqad team?
<sfllaw> Yes.  In fact, you get to set them before you join BugSquad.
<sfllaw> Although it's good form to be know how to change them properly before you start doing so.  :)
<at2000> ic
<sfllaw> But that's why you're here!
<sfllaw> So...
<sfllaw> You've set the proper meta-data on the bug and have taken responsibility.
<sfllaw> In the comment, we would ask for the version of Bash:
<sfllaw>   "Hi Longer.  Could you please describe the precise steps you performed to crash bash?  Thanks."
<sfllaw> Click "Save Changes" and you're done.
<sfllaw> When you get an e-mail from Longer responding to your question with the appropriate steps, the bug can be considered complete.  You've got information on how to reproduce it and there's even a handy log file for a developer to look at.
<sfllaw> We can now pass this on to the development team to fix.
<sfllaw> Click "bash (Ubuntu)" again and change:
<sfllaw>   Status = Confirmed
<sfllaw>   Assigned to = Nobody
<sfllaw> Click "Save Changes".
<sfllaw> rulus asks: where ends the task of the Bug Squad team? here?
<sfllaw> The BugSquad team actually works on all parts of bugs.
<sfllaw> However, the job of a triager ends here.
<rulus> ah, ok
<sfllaw> Basically, it's like the first response you get at a hospital.
<rulus> i see
<sfllaw> You want to manage the huge flow of incoming bugs so that people fixing them aren't overwhelmed.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:nalioth] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Ubuntu Bug Squad
<sfllaw> La_PaRCa asks: is it part of the triager work to mark duplicates?
<sfllaw> Yes, it is.
<sfllaw> I'm going to get to that later.
<sfllaw> Let's say you encounter a bug report that isn't a bug at all.
<sfllaw> Perhaps it is a user asking for help on installing software.  Like a request to be taught how to use synaptic.
<sfllaw> Or perhaps it is a user asking for a new feature to be implemented.
<siretart> 
<sfllaw> You can distinguish between features and bugs this way.
<sfllaw> A feature request is a wish for new functionality that the program isn't expected to do.
<sfllaw> Whereas a bug is where the program fails in some way.  It obviously should be doing something more correct.
<sfllaw> You can respond to these by:
<sfllaw> Setting Status = Rejected
<sfllaw> And writing them a nice note in the comment explaining why it was not a valid bug.
<sfllaw> You can get templates of these nice notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<sfllaw> But you are welcome to put in your own personal touches.  Just remember to be friendly and polite, not terse.
<sfllaw> Smiffeh asks: should you build up some serious experience with triaging before you apply to join the bugsquad?
<sfllaw> No, you don't have to.  You can start in BugSquad right now.
<sfllaw> Acceptance is automatic and we'd love to teach you the ropes.
<sfllaw> Bourlotieris asks: I have a question about how do you join the Bugsquad team
<sfllaw> You can join by:
<sfllaw> - Joining the #ubuntu-bugs channel
<sfllaw> - Getting a Launchpad account
<sfllaw> - Applying to enter at https://launchpad.net/people/bugsquad
<sfllaw> Grishkin asks: Is there a special ubuntu team for making new bugs?
<Grishkin> :)
<sfllaw> In order to report a bug, you don't need anything but a Launchpad account.
<sfllaw> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs for how to file a bug report
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks: do you need any technical or programing skills to join the bug squad
<sfllaw> It helps, but you don't have to.
<sfllaw> Even if you understand nothing about computers, there are some bugs that you can help out with.
<sfllaw> They may be more difficult to find, but we are working on making it simpler.
<sfllaw> For instance, you can verify that "yes, there is a typo in this documentation".
<sfllaw> And you can try to reproduce bugs.
<sfllaw> And gather debugging information that users haven't yet provided.
<sfllaw> Another way to help out if you don't have a lot of technical knowledge, but enough to understand how a program _should_ work, is to look for duplicates.
<davmor2> sfllaw: that was where I was assuming you may need some skills knowing what to ask for
<sfllaw> In order to gather debugging information, you will want to read the http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebugginProcedures page.
<sfllaw> It describes various procedures for various packages.
<sfllaw> We add documentation to that all the time.
<sfllaw> And we'd love it if other people helped add to it as well.
<rulus> it's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<sfllaw> Curse my poor speeling.
<sfllaw> Moving on...
<sfllaw> A large class of reports are duplicates.  These are filed by people who did not look or could not find a bug report identical to their problem.  So they filed a new one.  But looking through the bug tracking system, we can spot quite a few if we take some time.
<sfllaw> For instance, let's look at the Totem's list of bugs: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bugs
<sfllaw> There's a bug about screen blanking while watching movies, http://launchpad.net/bugs/66257
<sfllaw> It has one bug marked as duplicate.  You can find a list of duplicates in the left sidebar.  That one is http://launchpad.net/bugs/73029
<sfllaw> If someone filed a new bug that was exactly the same as this one, you could click on the "Mark as Duplicate" link in the left sidebar, and enter "66257" as the bug number.
<sfllaw> You can find new bugs by looking at the big list of untriaged bugs.
<sfllaw> Or you can join #ubuntu-bugs and listen as Ubugtu rattles off new bugs every few minutes.
<sfllaw> It says things like this:
<sfllaw> New bug: #73643 in gaim (main) "Gaim crashes while getting roomlist" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73643
<sfllaw> This tells you that a new bug has been filed for the gaim source package.
<sfllaw> Gaim lives in main.
<sfllaw> And provides a description of what's wrong.
<sfllaw> Plus a handy URL to the bug.
<sfllaw> samge1 asks: should trivial bugs (like a typo) be submitted as a  bug or is it better fix them right away somehow (like a new suggestion for a translation)?
<sfllaw> It is best to file a bug report and point to a fix.
<sfllaw> This fix could be a new translation in Rosetta, or a patch attached to the bug report.
<sfllaw> This way, your fix doesn't get lost if it is a priority.
<sfllaw> If you are a developer, you are encouraged to use bugs to manage your fixes, even if you can uploda packages into Ubuntu.
<sfllaw> That way, you don't forget what's on your TODO list.
<sfllaw> finalbeta asks: What bugs should we report, I've reported hardware bugs (none got fixed), small software bugs (none get fixed), I've reported +-30 bugs in the last few months and only one crasher got fixed. Yet it will take 6 months before the fix will show up (in the next release). What bugs are the ubuntu people capable of handling?, should we just go upstream whenever possible? In short I mean, I should not bother reporting fglrx / a
<sfllaw> It is worth reporting bugs both to Ubuntu and to upstream.
<sfllaw> In fact, our bug tracking system has the capability to track upstream bugs.
<mcg> ?
<sfllaw> Ubuntu developers don't have a lot of resources, so we prefer to let upstream authors fix bugs unless they are critical.
<amnesia> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sfllaw> But we use the bug tracking system to monitor upstream bugs.  If an upstream has fixed something major, we will often backport that fix.
<amnesia> sorry
<sfllaw> The goal of a triager is to reduce the clutter in the bug tracking system.
<sfllaw> You shouldn't be closing old bugs, as they might still be useful and relevant.
<mcg> quit
<mcg> exit
<sfllaw> But new bugs coming in should be examined for duplicates.
<sfllaw> This reduces the clutter in the bug tracking system.  You want to choose the definitive bug with the most complete information, and make all the other duplicates refer to it.  If information is scattered around, you can edit the description of the definitive bug.
<LjL> mcg: /quit is the command you type if you want to leave the server, /part if you want to leave the channel
<sfllaw> The description of a bug is mutable, so that you can summarize the discussion held in the comments.
<sfllaw> This is really useful because difficult bugs may have pages and pages of comments.
<sfllaw> Any bug can have its description edited, and a good summary saves people a lot of time sifting through the conversation.
<sfllaw> To change the description, click the "Edit Description/Tags" link in the sidebar.  Try to clean up the description with a good summary of: Version, Reproduction steps, Expected result, Actual result, and a Diagnosis of the problem.
<sfllaw> You should also make sure the Summary is something useful, so people browsing for duplicates can find a relevant bug easily.
<sfllaw> Bad descriptions are: "Program crashes."
<sfllaw> Good descriptions are: "Program crashes with 'Error 12: Can't find my brain on line 382.'"
<sfllaw> A good description is easily searchable using keywords people would think of.
<sfllaw> And error messages are good because they are often unique to the problem.
<sfllaw> Click "Change" after updating the text.
<TheCode> nabend!
<sfllaw> a7p asks: what about #27810 - should this one be closed? Who does it if it should be done?
<sfllaw> This is a good example of how Ubuntu bugs can be tied to upstream bugs.
<sfllaw> If you look at the task table, you'll see three different lines.
<sfllaw> libaio (Ubuntu)
<sfllaw> upstart (Ubuntu)
<sfllaw> libaio (Debian)
<sfllaw> So the first two have to do with Ubuntu packages.
<sfllaw> And the third has to do with Debian ones.
<sfllaw> If I were going through this bug doing triage right now, I'd do the following things.
<sfllaw> - Realize that it has nothing to do with upstart, and reject it.
<sfllaw>   To do this, I click on the upstart (Ubuntu) task and set its status to Rejected.
<sfllaw>   Like so.
<sfllaw> - Notice that Fabio claims that this isn't a problem in Ubuntu because the brokenness was never imported.
<sfllaw> - Test to make sure I cannot reproduce the problem.
<sfllaw>   If everything works properly, I set libaio (Ubuntu)'s status to Rejected.
<sfllaw> In order to add upstream tasks, you will note two links under the task table:
<sfllaw> "Also affects: +Upstream... +Distribution..."
<sfllaw> If a bug affects another distribution like Fedora, Guadalinux, or Debian, with its own packages, use the +Distribution link.
<sfllaw> If a bug is caused by an upstream program's misbehaviour and is not a packaging bug, use the +Upstream link.
<sfllaw> You will have to file the bug in the other bug tracker, but then you can paste that bug's URL in to the "Request fix in a..." page, which will link the bugs together.
<sfllaw> Every day, the status of this bug will be updated with the upstream's status.
<sfllaw> Plus, you can search for bugs which have been fixed by upstream.
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  What is your description of security?  would it be the root password problem a while ago
<sfllaw> A security bug is one that allows local or remote users to access data or privileges that they shouldn't normally be able to.
<sfllaw> This definition is a bit flexible and up the discretion of the security team.
<pitti> breezy's user password exposure definitively falls into this category
<sfllaw> If you file a security bug, only the people subscribed to it will be able to see it.
<sfllaw> rulus asks: how do you know it also affexts upstream?
<pitti> sfllaw's definition is pretty good; I'd extend it to 'or allows a local/remote user to bring down a service'
<keescook> the wiki page SecurityUpdateProcedures has some examples of what can qualify, too.
<sfllaw> It's easy to tell whether a bug is caused by us.
<sfllaw> if a package doesn't install, the description is incorrect, or something doesn't show up in a menu, then it's probably Ubuntu's fault.
<sfllaw> If a program crashes or misbehaves, it's probably an upstream problem.  Especially if Google tells you that people using other distributions have the same problem.
<rulus> ok, i see
<sfllaw> It is usually a good idea to Google for your bug to see if:
<sfllaw> - You can find other people with your problem.  Often, these things will show up on newsgroups or forums (like the Ubuntu Forums)
<sfllaw> - You can find a bug in our bug tracking system already.
<sfllaw> - You can find a bug in someone else's bug tracking system (like Debian, Fedora, OpenSuSE, etc.)
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  does this mean you need to be running bugzilla too in order to cross reference?
<sfllaw> You don't have to sign up for other people's Bugzilla if you don't want to.
<sfllaw> You can concentrate on whatever packages you like.
<sfllaw> But if you want to pitch in for a few days to help with Firefox bugs, you should probably sign up for the Firefox Bugzilla, so you can report bugs to them.
<sfllaw> It makes a lot of sense to concentrate on a set of packages.  You can quickly become a local expert in some software.
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  I have reported a lot of bugs which have been marked as duplicates due to me not being able to find anything similar is there a way to better search for a bug?
<davmor2> sfllaw: I meant more to cross reference an ubuntu bug with a redhat bug
<sfllaw> To cross-reference with Red Hat, you should have a Red Hat bugzilla account to file bugs into their system.
<sfllaw> If the bug already exists, linking them together is free.
<davmor2> okay
<sfllaw> But to be polite, you should comment in the Fedora bug with the URL to the Ubuntu one.
<sfllaw> That way, our distributions can work together to fix things.
<sfllaw> For your other question about duplicates...
<rasman> I had a problem with a new ATI card, how would I report a bug like that?  How would it be addressed?
<davmor2> makes sense more devs that way
<sfllaw> I've found the best way is to use Google.
<Amaranth> haha, use Google to find launchpad bugs :)
<sfllaw> But to be sure, I often browse all open bugs for a particular package and look for potential descriptions to match.
<sfllaw> If you spend lots of time on a package, you will remember things that are similar.
<sfllaw> Sadly, search in Launchpad is not as good as it could be.
<sfllaw> We're running short on time.
<sfllaw> For more information, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs which describes how to help with bugs and how to join the BugSquad.
<sfllaw> We hang out in the #ubuntu-bugs IRC channel on irc.freenode.net.
<sfllaw> You can find help and encouragement (and hugs) there all the time.
<sfllaw> Finally, I want to point out that we have an *UbuntuHugDay* scheduled for tomorrow.  If you want to start helping with bugs, that would be a great time to pitch in.
<sfllaw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHugDay
<sfllaw> Thanks everybody!
<sfllaw> We're out of time so I'll field questions in #ubuntu-bugs.
<rulus> thanks for the explanation!
<amnesia> sfllaw: good session
<Cieffe> thanks sfllaw
<La_PaRCa> sfllaw, thanks a lot
<davmor2> sfllaw no next setion listed
<sfllaw> Well, I guess I should close up shop.
<sfllaw> nalioth: Ping? ^^^
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<nalioth> sfllaw: thanks for your time  :) we do love information  :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o sfllaw]  by nalioth
<davmor2> thanks
<alefteris> thanks :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next Session: MOTU
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<Bourlotieris> Thank you, most compact session today
<samge1> thanks man
<silwol> thx sfllaw
<kalon33> thanks sfllaw
<tuxar> thanks for all you do for us !
<test> quit
<metatecque> test: you need to put a slash before quit if you want to quit
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-11-29
<theCore> how was sabdfl's session?
<tyrion> does anyone have any logs of this online?
<theCore> !logs | tyrion
<ubotu> tyrion: Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<Changlinn> check the wiki I think there are logs there
<Changlinn> Yay ubotu is here...
* Changlinn hugs ubotu
<tyrion> theCore: cheers
<theCore> tyrion, yeah: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_AskMark
<theCore> sigh... nobody asked about Grumpy Groundhog ...
<apokryphos> theCore: maybe take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/GrumpyGroundhog
<theCore> apokryphos, thanks
<lzap> what Mark thought with "X update mistake"?
<Davidosoosos> did it start
<Davidosoosos> ?
<Odd_Bloke> Did what start?
<Davidosoosos> the Q and A session with Mark Shuttleworth
<Odd_Bloke> Yeah, about 7 hours ago...
<Davidosoosos> what!?!
<andrew> heh
<_ion> :-)
<andrew> times were UTC
<Davidosoosos> I used the tool to change the time and it said 7:00 eastern time
<andrew> Davidosoosos: it was noon est
<givre> Davidosoosos: you can get the log there https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_AskMark
<Davidosoosos> the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/ said 17.00 UTC
<andrew> Wed Nov 29 00:15:57 UTC 2006
<andrew> current UTC time ^
<givre> Davidosoosos: it was 17:00 UTC
<Davidosoosos> sorry. I just got a little confused
<dasmi_hull> You could always read the l...he's gone :/
<andrew> dasmi_hull: that was mentioned
<lzap> what Mark thought with "X update mistake"? does anyone know?
<Burgwork> lzap: the update to dapper that killed X
<lzap> killed ?
<DeepY0X> hi?
<tonyyarusso> Hi DeepY0X
<tonyyarusso> Fashionably early?
<DeepY0X> what about the conferences?
<nalioth> you are a few hours late and a few hours early, DeepY0X
<tonyyarusso> DeepY0X: Times are in UTC
<tonyyarusso> DeepY0X: The tinyurl link in the topic will help you convert
<tonyyarusso> !openweek | DeepY0X
<ubotu> DeepY0X: Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<tonyyarusso> !logs | DeepY0X
<ubotu> DeepY0X: Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<tonyyarusso> DeepY0X: And other places - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts, Meetings, and who knows where else people are putting them.
<hastesaver> And also at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<tonyyarusso> Yeah, that's the one I meant, not just Meetings
<tonyyarusso> my stupid cron script still isn't running right though :(
<jrib> well maybe if you didn't call it names...
<tonyyarusso> wha?
<jrib> "stupid cron script"
<tonyyarusso> oh
<tonyyarusso> hehe
<andrew> they have feelings, you know
<tonyyarusso> It's weird - the command run on it's own works fine, and another command with the same time fields runs fine, but together it doesn't seem to do it's job
<jrib> what I usually do if it's a complicated command is make a simple bash script, and have cron run that
<hastesaver> tonyyarusso, doesn't cron send you mail to tell you what happened?
<tonyyarusso> hastesaver: It does, and it _looks_ like things ran, but their results don't show that
<tonyyarusso> It's very freaky
<tonyyarusso> jrib: That's exactly what I have
<jrib> what command?
<tonyyarusso> jrib: It's a combination of things for ultimately get pretty logs of this channel posted at the link in !openweek
<tonyyarusso> Copies logs around a bit to a few different places, then tries to remove trolls, convert to colored html, and check that the permissions are okay.
<jrib> how do you remove trolls in a script?
<hastesaver> tonyyarusso, add lots of debugging output to your bash script, set the crontab time to a few minutes from now, and work on it :-)
<andrew> s/troll//
<tonyyarusso> Like I said, the script works fine on it's own, and the output in the mail from cron looks fine, but it doesn't look right afterwards.
<jrib> andrew: lol
<tonyyarusso> jrib: theCore wrote something that removes all lines said by anyone who was banned.
<jrib> oh cool
<jean> how can i registe a irc account?
<jean> hey?
<tonyyarusso> !register | jean
<ubotu> jean: Information about registering your Freenode nick is at http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#contents-userregistration
<tonyyarusso> jean: That should cover it pretty well :)
<jean> ok
<jean> thanks
<tonyyarusso> levander: Hey, you were looking for a log prettyifying script?
<tonyyarusso> levander: consider http://freshmeat.net/projects/irclog2html.pl/
<jeanvial> hi
<jeanvial> i only trying my conection?
<jeanvial> hi
<nalioth> jeanvial: it works  ;)
<jeanvial> ok
<jeanvial> thanks
<tonyyarusso> !test
<ubotu> Failed.
<tonyyarusso> :) / :(
<jeanvial> i trying because i want stay in the openweek
<jeanvial> but i new
<tonyyarusso> jeanvial: Glad to have you.
<jeanvial> somebody know how can i connect here with Gaim?
<bimberi__> tonyyarusso: what does !test test?
<tonyyarusso> The schedule and additional info is in the topic, also see the link to channel rules (in #ubuntu-classroom-chat topic or linked from wiki page)
<tonyyarusso> bimberi__: Whether ubotu feels like acknowledging you.  I think that's it.
<tonyyarusso> jeanvial: What are you using now?
<jeanvial> Xchat
<bimberi__> tonyyarusso: k, thanks
<tonyyarusso> jeanvial: First, my personal opinion, Xchat's interface is nicer for IRC.  However, if you'd like to use Gaim let me fire it up and poke around.
<jeanvial> ok
* andrew prefers irssi'
<andrew> s interface
<jeanvial> thanks
<tonyyarusso> andrew: Same here, actually, but if I'm going GUI I go Xchat.
<tonyyarusso> jeanvial: So what'll it be?
<andrew> tonyyarusso: i'd have to agree, i used xchat before using irssi -- steep learning curve, but once one learns it, screen + irssi is wonderful
<jeanvial> i thing tha i will use Xchat
<tonyyarusso> andrew: Heck yes.  My main reason for picking it up was that X crashed and burned on me and I needed to get my desktop back.  Never went back.
<tonyyarusso> jeanvial: Sounds like a plan.
<jeanvial> but i whant know how can i contect with gaim
<jeanvial> yes becuase if i can`t conet with gaim then i will use Xchat in the openweek
<andrew> tonyyarusso: my main reason for using irssi is because i can connect to my screen session from anywhere on campus, or beyond whenever i wish, and i can see what i missed when my laptop is off
<jeanvial> sorry for my English im Mexican
<tonyyarusso> jeanvial: Basics for Gaim in case you want it, just use the "Add Account" interface like you would for other things, select "IRC" as the protocol.  The server is irc.freenode.net, pick your nick, and from there it's pretty straightforward.  You can probably set your auto-join channels too, but I'm not sure where that option is.
<jeanvial> ok
<jeanvial> thanks
<jeanvial> ok
<jeanvial>  now i conecting with gaim
<jeanvial> thaks
<jeanvial> tony
<jeanvial> bye
<im247blk> I need hlp booting a USB xtrnl disk in an old laptop, no BIOS boot option for USB
<jeanvia1> somebody can see mi message
<tonyyarusso> jeanvia1: seen and acknowledged
<tonyyarusso> im247blk: Oy, I know you can, but don't remember the link offhand.  Check the wiki - I know it's on there but not sure under what.
<jeanvia1> bye
<jeanvia1> Alguien habla espaol?
<LjL> !es | jeanvia1
<ubotu> jeanvia1: Para Espaol por favor usen #ubuntu-es, #kubuntu-es o #edubuntu-es, all obtendrn mas ayuda.
<jeanvia1> ok
<jeanvia1> gracias
<jeanvia1> bye
<im247blk> tonyyarusso: Will I need a boot floppy or partition on my /dev/hda ??
<tonyyarusso> im247blk: Probably.
<tonyyarusso> I know I used a boot floppy to boot off a CD-ROM when BIOS didn't support it.
<im247blk> tonyyarusso: What floppy? Where ca I get one or an image???
<tonyyarusso> im247blk: That I'm not sure
<im247blk> tonyyarusso: Where did you get the floppy??
<tonyyarusso> im247blk: Some link from the wiki
<im247blk> tonyyarusso: What is the wiki URL?
<tonyyarusso> im247blk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
<im247blk> tonyyarusso: Thx!
<Dheeraj_k> can any body tell me the difference between multi programming and multi processing operating system?
* violot guesses he just missed a "lesson"
<tonyyarusso> violot: By a number of hours.
<tonyyarusso> Times are in UTC.
<violot> D'oh!!!
<violot> Noooo!
<tonyyarusso> See the tinyurl link in the topic to convert
<violot> Do you guys keep IRC logs?
<tonyyarusso> !openweek
<ubotu> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<tonyyarusso> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<violot> yay!
<tonyyarusso> :)
<violot> Not cool.  Stupid school + time offset :(  I don't think I can get to any of them
<violot> Except for Saturday, unless I have to work
<poningru> violot: skip school?
<violot> :P  I'm in high school, we get in trouble ;)
<andrew> connect from school?
<poningru> or connect from ...
<poningru> what he said
<violot> I wish I could.
<andrew> ssh out or do they block that?
<violot> Yeah, blocked ;)
<violot> You can't even download on those computers, it's gay.
<andrew> web based chat?
<violot> They have a filter thing.
<violot> And, I only have 1 hour of free time a day... Lunch = no computers
<andrew> connect from home and read the logs later
<violot> Or I could just read the logs without connecting :P
<poningru> they do not allow sshing?
<violot> No.
<poningru> ssh through port 80
<tonyyarusso> ssh on a nonstandard port
<violot> These are LOCKED DOWN.
<andrew> i was able to ssh from high school
<tonyyarusso> I use 443
<poningru> bah
<andrew> ssh over port 80 or 443
<poningru> nothing is LOCKED DOWN
<violot> Well, I mean, without getting me expelled/suspended
<poningru> if it allows http... then it allows everything
<violot> If you try to bypass ANYTHING, you get in trouble
<poningru> asshats
<violot> No Google Images either -_-
<poningru> wtf
<andrew> no, if they catch you bypassing anything you get in trouble
<violot> They think we'll look at "bad pictures"
<violot> So, access to those websites are blocked.
<andrew> so sheltered
<violot> Including any place that has webhosting.
<Dheeraj_k> use
<violot> It blocks blogs too.
<violot> No /.
<violot> No digg.
<Dheeraj_k> vtunnel.com
<tonyyarusso> Depends on the actual wording of your AUP violot
<violot> vtunnel is blocked because it's a loophole
<Dheeraj_k> there are lots of way to screw firewall
<Dheeraj_k> phonifier.com
<Dheeraj_k> want more?
<violot> Cell phone signals are blocked at school.
<violot> XD
<violot> It's gay.
<andrew> where do you go to school?
<Dheeraj_k> ??
<violot> But then you'll come 'n' rape me! :O
<violot> :P
<Dheeraj_k> use pc
<andrew> no, i'm a college student, can't afford to travel far
<tonyyarusso> violot: btw, stop using 'gay' as a negative please.
<Dheeraj_k> Hitler high?
<violot> Oops, X-chat likes to quit when I press Ctrl+X for some reason 0_o
<Dheeraj_k> desi-tek.com/Live
<Dheeraj_k> desi-tek.com/dCrawler
<Dheeraj_k> there are so many
<violot> Domains like those are blocked because they are loopholes
<Dheeraj_k> I recently made the small program in java based on tunnel
<romeo_> test
<Dheeraj_k> localhost>>collegeproxy>>>public proxy
<Dheeraj_k> tell you are  school network admin to not to ban desi-tek.com
<Dheeraj_k> its a student forum!
<violot> They don't allow forum access
<violot> They ban forum use.
<violot> If they catch you on a forum, you're out
<andrew> even ubuntu forums?
<violot> Yeah.
<violot> It doesn't matter what they are about
<tonyyarusso> Do they ban learning?
<violot> :P  Pretty much
<Dheeraj_k> sue you are school admin!
<andrew> what *can* you do online?
<violot> If you go to some websites, it says "Website banned for: Recreation/Fun"
<Dheeraj_k> how cum they allow irc?
<violot> They don't
<violot> I'm at home.
<tonyyarusso> violot: You need a different school
<Dheeraj_k> oh
<Dheeraj_k> than go 4 strike in school :P
<Ghost_Printer> violot: what OS does your school use ?
<Dheeraj_k> ask you are netAdmin...  what is the meaning of internet?
<_ion> 42
<violot> Windows XP
<Dheeraj_k> than you can ban net admin
<Ghost_Printer> poor you
<andrew> live cd
<Dheeraj_k> use ethereal
<violot> Can't boot from CD
<Dheeraj_k> does you are teacher access server from you are pc in school?
<violot> ?
<Dheeraj_k> leave it
<andrew> violot: websense?
<Dheeraj_k> here in our college our system admin use hp-unix
<Ghost_Printer> Dheeraj_k: sounds like Violot's school uses Deep Freeze to block access
<Dheeraj_k> and they don't block any site
<Dheeraj_k> other than xxxxx
<violot> I'd just rather not try to get around it and get caught ;)
<violot> And be banned from computer use
<andrew> violot: long fiber line to your home, and your own laptop
<violot> And therefore flunk my C.S. class
<andrew> don't forget the extra long extension cord
<violot> -_-
<violot> :P
<tonyyarusso> Our system runs Red Hat
<violot> Well, I DO live less than a mile away :P
<Dheeraj_k> code small virus and spead it around the workstation
<Dheeraj_k> violot: you have no life in school ;)
<violot> There, I'm in irssi, can't accidently kill the window now -_-
<andrew> violot: did you answer my question, as to what they *allow* you to do online?
<violot> :P  Ehhh...
<violot> Search, click on links, get pushed back, repeat :P
<Dheeraj_k> accessing microsoft.com ???
<Dheeraj_k> or may be www.windoesupdate.com
<violot> Not windows update
<violot> We can't download, remember, no point ;)
<Dheeraj_k> not possible!
<Dheeraj_k> when you access any site
<maniacmusician> have you thought about obtaining a proxy list, finding one that works, and then using that with whatever that default browser is?
<violot> I mean, we don't have write access to anywhere really
<Dheeraj_k> you download html file in hdd
<andrew> no where?
<andrew> not even a place to store docs?
<violot> We don't get any space
<violot> We use Flash drives
<andrew> waste of money
<Dheeraj_k> can you use floppy ?
<andrew> i've always had network drive access in high school
<violot> I don't recall if there are floppy drives in the machines or not
<maniacmusician> heh thats ridiculous! we had our computers deep frozen (I'm assistant sys-admin), but at least we have servers with network storage.
<Dheeraj_k> I have collection of some deadly virus for windows
<violot> We can't run EXE files that come from us
<violot> They aren't able to execute
<andrew> what is the school district?
<Dheeraj_k> you don't need to run
<andrew> maybe we can send them letters
<violot> -_-
<Dheeraj_k> ok next time open notepad
* violot needs sleep
<Dheeraj_k> and type
<violot> Sleeeeeeeep *_*
<Dheeraj_k> @net user administrator 000000000000
<Dheeraj_k> and save it as ff.bat
<violot> But...
<Dheeraj_k> in admin folder
<violot> We can only save to flashdrives
<violot> We don't have write access anywhere
<Dheeraj_k> it will change the the admin password in reboot
<andrew> violot isn't giving us a place to send letters to
<Dheeraj_k> to  000000000000
<violot> And I get suspended! YAY! ^_^   :P
<Dheeraj_k> can you edit registary file?
<maniacmusician> violot: when the computer boots up, go into the BIOS and set up a supervisor password. At least it will cause some trouble for them :)
<violot> Ah oh well, I didn't mean to strike up this whole thing :P
<violot> And I need sleep
<violot> Goodbye.
<maniacmusician> lol. our education system is so inefficient. I feel sorry for these children..
<Dheeraj_k> may be he is studying in hell!
<Dheeraj_k> its 9.47am here
<Dheeraj_k> (09:47:22  IST)
<maniacmusician> well its not just him. Even local schools here are horrible, and this a progressive, rich-kids society.
<Dheeraj_k> that is really sad
<andrew> that is the problem with this country, too much censorship/government parenting
<Dheeraj_k> here censorship is only in paper:)
<andrew> here, we have the consitution... but they ignore that
<Dheeraj_k> same here :)
<Dheeraj_k> but every 1 ignore that
<Dheeraj_k> are you in uk?
<maniacmusician> Well it hasn't really got much to do with gov't parenting
<andrew> us
<maniacmusician> The problem (here in the US) is a shitty education system. It needs major reform, but no one is willing to do it
<Dheeraj_k> here in india it is very complicated
<tonyyarusso> Hey folks, while this is fun and all, it's starting to look like it's trending towards politics and whatnot, which would be more appropriate in ##politics - could you take it there if this is going to carry on?
<andrew> i'll stop
<maniacmusician> hehe sorry. it's not that important a topic, i'll just quiet down
<tonyyarusso> That works too.  Don't have to stop entirely, just shift to the places that are really hoppin' with that stuff ;)
<andrew> i'm not *that* into it, it just came up here
<andrew> poor violot
<tonyyarusso> I'll second that much at least
<romeo_> can someone help me get a HP Deskwriter 3520 USB printer installed on dapper?  I've got it in the list as default, it's recognized and brings up an appropriate PPD file when configuring it, BUT it won't print the test page.
<tonyyarusso> romeo_: Try in #ubuntu for support questions.
<tonyyarusso> (Unless someone offers to take it up with you one-on-one here)
* andrew doesn't use paper
* andrew thinks it is outdated
<romeo_> ok, thanks
<nalioth> tonyyarusso: got logs of todays festivities?
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: They should be up - not cleaned, but up
<tonyyarusso> (all in one massive blob still)
<nalioth> how about the other pocket?
<tonyyarusso> nope
<tonyyarusso> I'm three labs behind in class atm
<nalioth> shall i send you a note to excuse you?
<tonyyarusso> That would be friggin' amazing.
<nalioth> just take the day off, then, and refer them to my wiki page for how to contact me
<nalioth> i'll set 'em straight
<tonyyarusso> Sounds like a plan.
<tonyyarusso> ....and PFA just stole a huge chunk of my time, but it was at least for an academic topic, so it's kinda like studying.
<il1il50> l
<mahtavamatt>  /join #ubuntu-classroom
<Odd_Bloke> mahtavamatt: It worked!
* Linuxpoa is away: Estou ocupado
* Linuxpoa is back (gone 00:11:37)
<highvoltage> Linuxpoa: away/back scripts are uncool
<_ion> linuxpoa: I sincerely thank you for your contribution to the discussion.
<Linuxpoa> Sorry,
<Saelynh> hello all
<thailq> hallo
<dholbach> hullo
<djay-il> hello
<djay-il> )
<djay-il> )
<dholbach> hello djay-il
<djay-il> I've found little error on wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom. is this a place to tell?
<snail> djay-il: yep
<djay-il> all the Open Week is mondays
<djay-il> :-)
<snail> well spotted. feel free to fix it
<djay-il> should I login for that?
* djay-il is not registered yet
<snail> djay-il: i think you need to be, yes
<djay-il> ok
* djay-il is going to register
<djay-il> wow, it seems that I *am* registered
<djay-il> what's the short sign for Thursday - THU ?
<djay-il> ok, Classroom wiki fixed
<hophet> djay-il: $ cal
<hophet> :] 
<djay-il> $ cal ?
<hophet> yes, there you will see the short sign of days
<hophet> or iam crazy?
<hophet> :P
<hophet> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
<djay-il> oh, I did 3 letters acronyms, just to be consistent
<xeruno> Hi every one
<xeruno> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gtk+2.0/+bug/60383 I think we got FIX RELEASED fot this
<xeruno> oops
<xeruno> wrong channel
<hophet> djay-il: ok
<jono> howdy all
<djay-il> hello
<djay-il> jono: its not a session yet, right?
<Tchonga> hello!
<jono> right
<djay-il> can I ask a /msg question?
<mattl> jono: yo. how's it going mate?
<jono> mattl: good thanks :)
<jono> you?
<mattl> yeah, not bad. i got my new job :)
<mattl> so, i'll be moving to Manchester.
<jono> mattl: cool :)
<jono> right lunch
<effie_jayx> mattl: Glory Glory Man United :)
<mattl> haha.
<effie_jayx> don't tell me you ar chelski fan
<mattl> effie_jayx: no, i'm not a football fan at all :)
<effie_jayx> just teasing :)
<mattl> if i had to support anything, i'd support my hometown, but Exeter City is er.. crap.
<effie_jayx> they beat man utd last year
<effie_jayx> no
<effie_jayx> this year
<mattl> they didn't beat them. they drew.
<mattl> 0-0.
<effie_jayx> right...
<mattl> and then Man Utd came to exeter and beat them 2-0.
<effie_jayx> but tha's to beat them ...
<effie_jayx> but you follow football :)
<juliux> hi mako_
<EdsipeR> morning
<sbaush> hi all
<EdsipeR> hi sbaush
<justMatt> hey whats the time? UTC of course?
<juliux> justMatt, date -U ;)
<juliux> justMatt, it is 14:09 UTC
<justMatt> lol ta :D
<effie_jayx> ok
<effie_jayx> let's have some fun... what time is it in your country...
<effie_jayx> Contry - Time :)
<effie_jayx> Venezuela - 10:00 am
<justMatt> Australia 1240am :D
<juliux> Germany 15:10
<kuyky> portugal - 14:11
<effie_jayx> amazing... synchronicity at it's best
<effie_jayx> god bless the internet :)
<justMatt> yes, indeed
<tenshu> 15h12 france =)
<atoponce> 7:14 usa mst
<effie_jayx> it is worth it
<effie_jayx> to sacrifice sleep or to get up early :)
<atoponce> effie_jayx: yessir!
<effie_jayx> how long have you been ubunteando?
<atoponce> since warty
<tenshu> breezy
<effie_jayx> hoary... but I installed and breezy was just coming out...
<justMatt> 5.04
<effie_jayx> I miss hoary .... :(
<atoponce> tristanbob showed me the light right when 4.10 came out, and i've been a user since
<effie_jayx> I like innovation and all but my old pc is lagging behind...
<effie_jayx> had you been using linux before?
<atoponce> effie_jayx: yeah. slackware, redhat, mandrake, suse
<effie_jayx> wow...
* atoponce has been using linux since '99
<djay-il> atoponce: and all of them aren't something....
<atoponce> nothing seemed to reaaly work for my laptop, so i switched distros a lot
<atoponce> then i installed ubuntu....
<atoponce> and the rest is history
<atoponce> :)
<djay-il> atoponce: I tried freebsd and debian before setting on something
<Netfinity> sounds familiar, I started using ubuntu since warty and it was the only linux that installed smoothly on my old P1 IBM Thinkpad laptop.
<atoponce> djay-il: how'd you like debian? and how do you like ubuntu compared to debian?
<djay-il> atoponce: I liked debian less than FreeBSD, can't explain why. Ubuntu actually didn't work for me well enough, but I have to admin I haven't given enough effort
<djay-il> I was impressed with 6.04 btw
<atoponce> you liked freebsd better than debian? i gave freebsd a shot, and hated it
<atoponce> not enough software
<atoponce> djay-il: dapper?
<djay-il> atoponce: well, thats personal I guess :-)
<atoponce> yeah
<leetcharmer> my favorite was Breezy.  That one effectively detected my hardware and worked the smoothest with my laptop
<djay-il> atoponce: I don't remember them by names
<leetcharmer> Edgy is good for my desktop.
<djay-il> to tell the truth, my laptop is freakingly working only with Gentoo
<atoponce> i like edgy
<djay-il> even Windows can't be installed, some HD formatting problems
<atoponce> lol
<ailean> i don't want grumpygroundhog . . .
<ailean> i know i'll end up installing it
<ailean> and wrecking my system
<leetcharmer> lawl, wut? Grumpy Groundhog?
<atoponce> ailean: as will i
<djay-il> yea, I wanted to sell it - and I couldn't, the guy wanted me to install Windows on it, and I just couldn't succeed
<leetcharmer> it that the: work on any system -- version?
<juliux> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/72212 <-- that is a nice bug report;)
<ailean> leetcharmer, it's the latest development version, never intended to be released
<Diego> HI
<atoponce> leetcharmer: it's compared to debian sid.  the latest and greatest
<djay-il> I wonder what's working for canonical is like
<leetcharmer> is it any good?
<atoponce> i would imagine it's pretty cool
<atoponce> getting paid to work on ubuntu all day long? what could be better?
<atoponce> :)
<djay-il> atoponce: exactly
<ailean> coding for a job is not my idea of fun
<djay-il> I asked them but didn't get any answer
<ailean> although working from home would be cool
<atoponce> juliux: nice "bug". i completely agree
<WB|Diego> HI
<djay-il> ailean: thats exactly what I was thinking
<djay-il> and you don't have actually to be at home :-)
<ailean> what do you mean?
<djay-il> well, enough to have a broadband access
<ailean> you still need to do your job though ;)
<atoponce> ailean: i work at home at times, and it's not all that great
<effie_jayx> atoponce, I agree
<WB|Diego> is the complete conversation in english ?
<ailean> why not?
<effie_jayx> specially if your daughter is around
<ailean> WB|Diego, usually, yes
<WB|Diego> OK
<ailean> WB|Diego, where are you from?
<effie_jayx> playing and wants you to play
<ailean> heh
<djay-il> but still, its better that dayjob
<WB|Diego> I came form Germany
<atoponce> ailean: kids bothering you, doing chores also, staying motivated, no one to socialize with...
<WB|Diego> Bavaria
<WB|Diego> is the exact localation
<WB|Diego> so my first language is German
<WB|Diego> ;)
<effie_jayx> atoponce, and your wife saying ... I'ma buy some computer perfume... so maybe I can win you back
<ailean> WB|Diego, there is #ubuntu-de, which is in German, but the classes are in english
<ailean> WB|Diego, you seem to speak good english anyway ;)
<atoponce> effie_jayx: exactly. my wife calls my computer the "other wife"
<WB|Diego> and the openweek, is in that channel ?
<ailean> no
<WB|Diego> ailean
<ailean> that's here, in English
<WB|Diego> Ok
<WB|Diego> yes
<WB|Diego> good
<WB|Diego> ailean, where do you come from ?
<ailean> scotland
<WB|Diego> nice
<ailean> so we have to speak english :)
<WB|Diego> so, your first language ist english
<WB|Diego> yes
<WB|Diego> it's right
<ailean> yes, it is
<ailean> i speak Scots, Spanish and French too
<WB|Diego> ohh really ?
<ailean> but zero german ;)
<WB|Diego> that'S good
<juliux> WB|Diego, moin an die bayern;)
<WB|Diego> Kein Deutsch. Das ist sehr schlecht ;)
<ailean> i understood that ;)
<WB|Diego> Servus juliux
<ailean> no german, that is very bad
<WB|Diego> OK
<atoponce> brb
<WB|Diego> English is esier to learn ;)
<WB|Diego> esier, is it correct ?
<ailean> easier
<WB|Diego> oh
<WB|Diego> yes
<ailean> english is difficult for most people in the world. you're lucky that you speak a germanic language too.
<WB|Diego> yes, and for my age ;)
<ailean> and, because i speak spanish and french, i can easily learn other romantic languages
<djay-il> romantic?
<djay-il> :-)
<ailean> i went to sicily a couple of years ago and was speaking basic italian within a couple of weeks ;)
<ailean> djay-il, yes, they're called romantic languages
<djay-il> roman you mean?
<ailean> Spanish, French, Italian, Portugese . . .
<WB|Diego> I think english is enough
<ailean> no, i mean romantic ;)
<djay-il> lol
<WB|Diego> German and bavarian were anyway not the same ;)
<ailean> english is enough, but we english speakers don't speak other languages . . .
<WB|Diego> I always still learning english
<ailean> i'm sorry, i don't know anything about germanic languages. how are they not the same?
<WB|Diego> next year I will written my
<WB|Diego> Final examination
<RichiH> they are
<RichiH> it's just a common thing to say amongst us
<RichiH> i mean, the really hard dialects are almost different languages
<RichiH> and plattdeutsch definately is
<heikki> but you don't have to learn any other languages if you don't want, but try to live and speak only Finnish in nowadays world :)
<ailean> lol
<RichiH> but bavarian tends to be nearer to english from the vocabulary than standard german
<ailean> my finnish is even worse than my german . . .
<WB|Diego> German and Bavarian have not the same accent
<RichiH> WB|Diego: you need to improve your grammar ;)
<RichiH> WB|Diego: i suggest readin english book
<RichiH> s
<RichiH> works like a charm!
<WB|Diego> really ?
<RichiH> yes
<heikki> yes
<WB|Diego> lol
<RichiH> english books are key to really learning the language
<heikki> we have to read some english books in school
<ailean> i had some salty finnish sweets . . . they were very strange
<heikki> upper secondary school
<RichiH> but anyone can tell you are a german trying to speak english from ten miles of
<WB|Diego> grammer, yes it not the best
<WB|Diego> ;)
<RichiH> that's the friendly way of saying it ;p
<ailean> feic sake RichiH - why are you saying that?
<RichiH> feic?
<ailean> yeah, it's like fuck but you can say it to your granny :)
<heikki> :)
<ailean> i suppose it's a scottish and irish thing
<RichiH> ah
<WB|Diego> Yes, I have no problem with your statement
<RichiH> that would be for feic's sake then, though
<RichiH> WB|Diego: and do not get discouraged when you have trouble reading them at first
<atoponce> 15 minutes...
<RichiH> i also sucked :)
<andrew> till i have to be at class...
<RichiH> used to, more specifically
<WB|Diego> what reading ?
<ailean> RichiH, i can't believe you're telling me how to speak my first language . . .
<ailean> :)
<heikki> :)
<ailean> feic sake is perfectly acceptable and it comes from "for feic's sake", but it's right!
<RichiH> ailean: probably because i did not do such a thing?
<ailean> :)
<RichiH> i was talking to WB|Diego
<ailean> aye ye did
<RichiH> ah, you meant that weird uk slang
<RichiH> pft
<ailean> lol
<ailean> Scots?
<WB|Diego> yes, but I could learn
<WB|Diego> still much more
<RichiH> move away from the coast and that bloody problem solves itself in a few years
<WB|Diego> I'm young ;)
<ailean> Scots is aboot as diffrent frae Inglis as Dutch is frae German.  It developit as a seperate leid an aw.
<ailean> But ye can unnerston it A'd think.
<RichiH> ailean: that's only cause sheep can't pronounce half of the english words ;)
<RichiH> nope, can't do, sorry
<ypsila> moin
<WB|Diego> RichiH
<ailean> aren't you a delight
<WB|Diego> where do you come from ?
<ailean> i'll come back later.
<RichiH> WB|Diego: munich
<WB|Diego> cool
<RichiH> WB|Diego: right now, i am in india, though
<ypsila> RichiH: moin W
<RichiH> and it's dinner time
<RichiH> w?
<ypsila> sorry Wuerzburg
<RichiH> ah
<WB|Diego> Ich wohne ca. 75 Km von Mnchen entfernt.
<ypsila> lach
<ypsila> where exactly?
<RichiH> nice
<WB|Diego> niederbayern
<WB|Diego> near Landshut
<RichiH> i need to run, catch you later
<ypsila> nice region
<WB|Diego> yes
<RichiH> eww, niederbayern
<ypsila> see you Riggs
<RichiH> ;)
<WB|Diego> eww ?
<RichiH> sagt man, wenn was eklig ist
<RichiH> ;)
<ypsila> we should use english
<jjtec1> bit early yet?
<juliux> moin to all german ubuntus and hello to the rest;)
<ypsila> moin from Germany
<WB|Diego> lol
<WB|Diego> moin
<WB|Diego> hello
<atoponce> moin from usa
<tenshu> moin?
<WB|Diego> hello
<WB|Diego> good afternoom
<WB|Diego> ;)
<juliux> tenshu, it's from nothern germany
<minimec> so the show is beginnig soon ;)
<WB|Diego> do you have a pistol ?
<ypsila> tenshu: "moin" is german and means "hello"
<WB|Diego> atoponce
<tenshu> ok
<WB|Diego> lol
<atoponce> WB|Diego: ?
<ypsila> tenshu: where are you from?
<WB|Diego> atoponce, do you have a gun ?
<atoponce> yes
<tictacaddict> is moin a common greeting?  I took a little German and don't recall hearing that
<WB|Diego> cool
<atoponce> why?
<popey> moin is used a lot on irc
<WB|Diego> lol
<ypsila> tictacaddict: no, it comes from the north around Hamburg
<juliux> ypsila, oh now
<popey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moin
<WB|Diego> only so
<ypsila> and was used in a very nice comic "werner" a lot
<atoponce> i have a walther p99 9mm
<jono> right, nearly there
<jono> everyone ready for some MOTU action?
<WB|Diego> picture ?
<atoponce> you'll notice, that a german gun
<tictacaddict> I'm ready!
<popey> Give it to me baby!
<WB|Diego> What is MoTU ?
<juliux> ypsila, in hamburg it is not often used more in emsland and schlesswigholstein
<datten> ahoi
<minimec> atoponce: just by curiosity... Why do you have a gun?
<heikki> WB|Diego: master of the universe
* GazzaK gives popey a kick in the teeth
<effie_jayx> Masters of the Unverse
<tictacaddict> Masters... of The UNIVERSE!
<effie_jayx> as in He-man :)
<WB|Diego> And what does that mean ?
<jono> led by Prince Adam Holbach
<atoponce> i love to go shooting, and i want to protect my home
<jono> :P
<ypsila> juliux: but I guess "werner" made ist spread all over the rest
* popey holds aloft his magic sword and says "III HAVE THE POOOWERRRR!"
<dholbach> can we move the gun discussion to somewhere else and general chatter to  #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
<dholbach> :-)
<tictacaddict> like, the universe repository
<tenshu> yeah =)
<minimec> atoponce: ok. Where do you come from?
<dholbach> GOOD MORNING EVERYBODY :-)
<atoponce> minimec: usa
<tenshu> hi dholbach
<juliux> good morning dhaumann
<highvoltage> hi mr dholbach
<juliux> good morning dholbach
<atoponce> dholbach: moin
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o dholbach]  by ChanServ
<jono> might be an idea to give it two more mins dhaumann
<WB|Diego> Moin
<jono> dholbach,
<jono> still not quite 3pm
<ypsila> moin
<tenshu> moin =)
<rikai> Wow... this channel is so much cleaner when you have joins/parts turned off O.o
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:dholbach] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: MOTU
<jono> allow all the late stragglers to come in :P
<minimec> minimec: I have a gun too, a SIG P220. I was an officer of the swiss army.
<dholbach> jono: yes
<atoponce> rikai: yes it is.
<PriceChild> minimec: just said something to himself...
* atoponce awaits the bell...
<tictacaddict> rikai: I just realized this myself
<minimec> atoponce: I have a gun too, a SIG P220. I was an officer of the swiss army.
<tenshu> lets move to classroom-chat =)
<WB|Diego> http://www.armurerie-girod.com/a_utils/mod/image.asp?action=RESIZE&loc=/a_data/prods/&file=3120200_lCP99.jpg&reqx=575
<WB|Diego> oh
<WB|Diego> sorry
<jono> ok lets go! :)
<dholbach> guys.... leave the guns out of this room :)
<WB|Diego> yes. move it the classromm-chat
<dholbach> Welcome everybody!
<minimec> PriceChild: Yeah... sh... happens
<WB|Diego> yes, move it to the classromm-chat
<ypsila> pscchht
<rikai> i just realized that you coud right click in the tree view on the channel and disable joins/parts with a single checkbox.
<dholbach> I'm happy to take on questions as we go, but please ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and always put a "QUESTION: " in front of them
<datten> dholbach set +m on the Channel! :)
<jono> rikai, shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
<dholbach> no, we won't moderate the channel, not necessary
<dholbach> This session is about MOTU, the Masters of the Universe.
<dholbach> My name is Daniel Holbach, I work for Canonical and my main objectives are Ubuntu's Desktop and working with teams like MOTU, Telepathy, Accessibility, the Art team and others. I joined the MOTUs nearly two years ago and we were around 5 of them at that time.
<ypsila> ok then
<dholbach> The name originates from the Universe component, which holds the biggest amount of our packages. 'main' and 'restricted' are supported by Canonical, 'universe' and 'multiverse' by the community. 'main' and 'restricted' hold 4829 packages today and 'universe' plus 'multiverse' 15855. So as the name suggests, the MOTU team takes care of 'universe' (and 'multiverse' also). We currently have 57 members. And we hang out in #ubuntu-motu
<n3t0> eggman, \o/
<dholbach> What do MOTUs generally do?
<dholbach> As a MOTU you're maintaining packages. Since we don't follow the concept of applying the rigorous big maintainer lock, it's your choice which package you take care of.
<dholbach> We have people
<dholbach>  * taking care only of their own packages
<dholbach>  * working together with others on a set of packages in a team
<dholbach>  * fixing lots of different packages
<dholbach> (* working on no packages at all)
<dholbach> If you belong to the last category, listen up! This is your first step in the Ubuntu Development Community. :-)
<dholbach> So how do I become a MOTU?
<dholbach> That's very easy. You basically contribute to the team's efforts, either by packaging a new piece of software or by helping with fixing / updating / merging existing packages.
<eggman> n3t0, hi !
<dholbach> I personally always found the second way to be much easier and you learn a lot along the way. As a MOTU hopeful you're not allowed yet to upload to the archive yourself, but you can ask other team members to sponsor the upload for you. We have a lightweight process for that in place.
<dholbach> After a while, when you've become more comfortable with packaging, the processes and you've worked with a couple of people, you will hear that people are tired of uploading your packages and you should be able to do so yourself. :-)
<dholbach> Any questions up until now? If so, just ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Hobbsee> dholbach: after about the 50th, or so?  :P
<dholbach> <ailean> QUESTION: How do I get started with packaging then?
<dholbach> ailean: I'll mention some areas where MOTUs work in just some minutes - if you need any help with anything, either ask me or on #ubuntu-motu - ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com is also a good start
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: Is *anything* (free) fair game for packaging?
<dholbach> popey: the source of your package will be checked by MOTUs and by our Archive Admins, apart from license questions there are other things to consider as well, but we're generally open for good quality open source software.
<dholbach> <PriceChild> QUESTION: How many packages/how long does it normally take before you're considered "adept"
<dholbach> PriceChild: that depends: we had people with a Debian background or people who dug right into packaging and were MOTUs within 3 weeks
<dholbach> PriceChild: if you find something intersting for you, it should be an easy challenge :)
<dholbach> <atoponce> QUESTION: what language(s) should i be familiar with, if needed?
<dholbach> atoponce: in general, every skill you have with programming or checking and fixing software is of help, but I found that a natural curiosity and putting some work into learning and asking got most people there
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: If I know someone who is already a MOTU, should I latch on to them to get them to upload for me?
<dholbach> popey: we have the process for sponsoring described on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ
<popey> thansk
<dholbach> but yeah, if you know somebody already, even better. :-)
<popey> :)
<dholbach> <PriceChild> QUESTION: How do I get a pony?
<popey> he will live to regret it :)
<PriceChild> yay :)
<dholbach> PriceChild: ask mneptok or Mithrandir :-)
<PriceChild> hehe :)
<PriceChild> thanks
<dholbach> Ok, I move on and pick up some questions later on again
<Hobbsee> haha
<dholbach> It's easy to see that it's not just a matter of technically abilty, but also a matter of teamwork and trust. The current process asks you to become an Ubuntu member in the Community Council meeting (where you are recognized for your efforts) and become a member of 'ubuntu-dev' after the Technical Board was happy with you on a technical basis. That process will change in the near future and a MOTU council (let's see if it will be called
<dholbach>  'Council Grayskull' in the end...), which will do the approval.
<jono> woo!
<dholbach> Things the team does:
<dholbach> We work on Bugs, just to put some numbers into the discussion:
<dholbach>  * 10563 bugs in Universe/Multiverse    (66274 in Ubuntu total)
<dholbach>  * 6739 closed bugs Universe/Multiverse (46063 closed in Ubuntu total)
<dholbach> While the numbers look scary, here's a very good thing about working with the MOTUs: you're not alone. If you try to fix a bug in a package you have:
<dholbach>  1) team members,
<dholbach>  2) the Debian maintainer and
<dholbach>  3) the upstream author
<dholbach> you can ask and work with. Working on bugs is highly rewarding: sometimes it's a one line fix, you find in the upstream CVS already and you make a lot of users happy.
<dholbach> Teams
<dholbach> MOTU has formed a huge bunch of subteams already:
<dholbach>  * Games team
<dholbach>  * Media team
<dholbach>  * Science team
<dholbach>  * Photo team
<dholbach>  * UncommonProgrammingLanguages team
<dholbach> and a lot of other teams, which started in Universe, but now are working across the whole distro, the Mono team is a good example for that. If you have good ideas for a team and want to kickstart it, let me know: dholbach@ubuntu.com
<dholbach> jono will be able to help out as well.
<jono> indeed
<dholbach> Transitions! That's usually an easy way to get involved.
<n3t0> eggman, im here
<dholbach> In order to use a new technology consistently across the whole archive, we sometimes need to change several hundreds of packages. This is gratifying work also, as it's sometimes easy to do and nice to do this within a team. Good examples of this were:
<dholbach>  * the switch from python2.3 to python2.4 (as a default)
<dholbach>  * the use of gcc4
<dholbach>  * the transition to use Xorg
<dholbach>  * ...
<dholbach> We used to have  H U G E   working lists on the wiki, nowadays we often use Malone to keep track of these.
<dholbach> Get new packages in!
<dholbach> Ubuntu has become a great place for users. Lots of software is packaged already, but your personal pet project might be missing still. This also is a gratifying task, as you make many users happy by providing high-quality software in the archive.
<dholbach> All NEW packages go through a review process, which currently happens on http://revu.tauware.de - this might change in the near future. Reviewing is a great way to mentor, but also to learn, which leads us to our next point.
<dholbach> More questions? I'll pick some of those that came up earlier
<dholbach> <juliux> QUESTIONS are there howtos how to start with packaging?
<jjtec1> QUESTION:Malone?
<dholbach> juliux: yes, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation has a bunch of links to good documentation
<dholbach> but as I said before, I always found it easy to check existing packages to learn from them
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: ok, flipside, is there anything you are *not* interested in seeing packaged?
<dholbach> popey: as long as it serves a purpose, makes users happy and doesn't freak out the archive-admins, ... :-)
<popey> binary blobs included?
<dholbach> for example :)
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: Is the process different if I am packaging something of my own creation, compared with a tarball that I find online that isn't currently packaged?
<dholbach> popey: I shouldn't think so, but in the case where you wrote the software, you'd have a good relationship to the upstream developer already... which is good. ;-)
<popey> :)
<dholbach> <rikai> QUESTION: Always been a curiosity of mine, and i cant think of any better time to ask, so... Is MOTU supposed to be a play off of He-Man?
<dholbach> rikai: you should ask ogra, as far as I know, it was HIS idea :)
<dholbach> <Cas> QUESTION: Should you ask (permission) before you start packaging something if it will be included or can you just find some new software and start packaging
<dholbach> Cas: we keep track of what we package on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates - so it's good to check that
<dholbach> Cas: in addition to that, it's good to check the debian bug tracker for ITP (intent to package) or RFP (request for package) requests, as this way you have people you can work with on the packaging
<dholbach> Cas: apart from that: just do it! :-)
<dholbach> <Jucato> QUESTION: is Hobbsee really the Queen of the Universe (QOTU)
<Cas> :)
<dholbach> Jucato: I think that should be "Mistress of the Universe"
<dholbach> but I'm not sure... :-)
<Jucato> hehe
<dholbach> I think I'll take on some more questions later
<Hobbsee> dholbach: no, queen.  i dont like the title of mistress.
<dholbach> I see :-)
<dholbach> Mentoring
<dholbach> We're doing huge efforts at helping people get up to scratch on packaging, especially #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net is always buzzing and somebody is always awake to answer *your* packaging question.
<dholbach> But mentoring also happens on our ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, in private chats, by doing reviews of packages and patches or via mail. Don't hesitate to approach us, join the Master of the Universe today! :-)
<dholbach> Merges
<dholbach> In the beginning of each release cycle we merge our efforts with those of the Debian maintainers. So this is what we currently do for Feisty. If you want to help out, just grab a merge from http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html or http://merges.ubuntu.com/multiverse.html and go ahead.
<dholbach> MOTU School
<dholbach> In the spirit of the Ubuntu's Open Week we already had some interesting MOTU School sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School - if you want to hold a session or request a session, let us know on the mailing list and on the wiki pages.
<dholbach> Documentation!
<dholbach> Jordan Mantha (laserjock) and others have worked hard on the Packaging Guide, but they'd always be glad to have people who are interested in explaining and helping new MOTU hopefuls to find their way into the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation lists a few pages of interest.
<MarkoKaa>  /msg nickserv set unfiltered on
<MarkoKaa> sorry
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and its subpages could also do with some helping hands. MOTU is a community effort and has grown into all sorts of directions over time, the wiki pages bear witness of that, so it'd be great if you'd fix whatever documentation you found inaccurate.
<dholbach> We're going to add all the question of today (and Saturday, we'll have another session at 16:00 UTC) to the wiki, especially to MOTU/FAQ.
<dholbach> Do we have more questions?
<jjtec1> QUESTION:What is Malone?
<atoponce> jjtec1: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<dholbach> jjtec1: http://launchpad.net/malone - our bug tracker
<dholbach> <atoponce> QUESTION: ubuntu freezes from debian just before release. if i package a more recent version of software, will it get included in the current release, or saved for the next release? how is that handled?
<dholbach> atoponce: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule - this is our current release schedule
<dholbach> we'll stop importing automatically from Debian on December 21st and have UniverseFreeze on March 15th (although that's not on the schedule) - I'll fix that later on
<dholbach> <leonel> QUESTION:  is there a Java Team  working on the  OpenJDK inclusion in  Ubuntu ?
<dholbach> leonel: we have a java team and doko is our most prominent java expert - you should ask them what their java plans are
<dholbach> I don't know. Sorry.
<dholbach> <vyoman> QUESTION how many hours a week (contributing) is the minimum to be useful? (2 hours, 1 day,...)
<dholbach> vyoman: a good question - we had a couple of people already who were concerned about not having enough time
<dholbach> vyoman: if you maintain a package, it's enough to check the bugs every now and then and reply to them
<dholbach> vyoman: we really don't tie membership to hours of work you spend on IRC, etc
<dholbach> <jrib> QUESTION: what are some existing packages that would be good examples to look at?  Something not too complicated and well-packaged
<dholbach> jrib: we have a wiki page with some example packages for that - I'll find out for you where it is
<dholbach> jrib: also the packaging guide ( https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html ) might have something
<dholbach> <SimonAnibal> QUESTION: If there's a package that's already in the Ubuntu repository, but which has not been updated in a long time so that the current version is a couple of years newer than the one in the Ubuntu repository, would there be a way to get involved there, and work with the package's upstream to make sure we have the latest version in the Ubuntu repositories?
<SimonAnibal> dholbach: I should mention I have no real programming experience
<dholbach> SimonAnibal: absolutely, if you update a package (and it's not already UpstreamVersionFreeze), then that's cool
<dholbach> SimonAnibal: especially if you are able to track the new incoming bugs and liaise with upstream
<dholbach> that's a great contribution
<dholbach> <xerxas> QUESTION: merging with debian is from sid/unstable ?
<dholbach> xerxas: yes, in most cases it's unstable, but in some the maintainer chooses to merge with experimental - seb128 and I do that in the Desktop Team with GNOME every now and then
<dholbach> but mostly Debian 'unstable' yes.
<xerxas> thanks
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: Do MOTUs get invited to UDS? :)
<Seeker`> QUESTION: UDS?
<dholbach> popey: yes, people are invited for their contributions
<popey> Ubuntu Developer Summit
<dholbach> Seeker`: Ubuntu Development Summit
<popey> excellent, thanks
<dholbach> <tryggvib> QUESTION: Can I be absolutely certain that all of the packages in Universe are released under a completely free license?
<dholbach> tryggvib: having uploaded packages with faulty licenses already, I can say that the archive-admins do a VERY good job of checking them :-)
<tryggvib> good to know
<dholbach> we had a different take on the free-ness of certain parts than Debian did, documents were an example of that, but yes
<dholbach> <tryggvib> QUESTION: If a MOTU has been inactive for a while, is it possible to take over his/hers work without their approval?
<dholbach> tryggvib: very good question
<dholbach> maybe I wasn't clear enough before
<dholbach> We don't have the BML, the Big Maintainer Lock :)
<dholbach> so if you intend to fix a package, just do it
<dholbach> of course it's better to ask the current maintainer or the team that takes care of that package
<dholbach> we respect areas of expertise, but we generally take care of all packages as a team
<dholbach> and talking to each other is a key skill everybody should have and develop as a MOTU hopeful
<dholbach> <rikai> QUESTION: What skills are recommended to be a productive member of the MOTU team? (Both in relation to technical skills, and interpersonal skills) In other words, what qualities are looked for in potential MOTUers?
<dholbach> rikai: curiosity, motivation are important and a good sense of what's going on
<dholbach> if you change a certain package you should be aware of the implications for others
<dholbach> if you're good at teamwork and organisation that's great too
<dholbach> I hope I was not too handwavy
<rikai> Makes sense.
<dholbach> The more things you know already, the better, but if not, it doesn't hurt. :-)
<dholbach> <jjtec1> QUESTION: If I have limited time available and poor skills can I still lend a hand ?
<dholbach> jjtec1: you sure can. As part of the MOTU team, you'll learn new things every time and if you're able to help by reviewing, you can mentor other MOTU hopefuls. Reviewing often doesn't cost too much time, if you notice something, just tell your fellow team member.
<dholbach> that's just one example - we have lots of other things that don't require a huge technical background either: bug triage, team organisation, etc
<dholbach> <rikai> QUESTION: You said there aren't any minimum requirements as to time spent helping on MOTU, which is nice. That said, is there an amount that you would LIKE to see(in an optimal situation)?
<dholbach> rikai: hehe... sure :-)
<dholbach> rikai: Jokes aside: an optimal situation is where somebody picks up a task and works on it reliably - that's more worth than being 24/7 in #ubuntu-motu :-)
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: What could the MOTU do better? Where do you see that it could be improved?
<dholbach> popey: Documentation
<popey> documentatino of upstream packages or of MOTU processes?
<dholbach> as I said before our wiki could do with some serious clean up and I'll try to do my part in the next weeks
<dholbach> popey: the MOTU wiki in general
<popey> ok
<dholbach> popey: we have a  bunch of old lists on there, confusing but still existing descriptions of things etc
<popey> that would be tricky for a newbie to attack, no?
<dholbach> I'm sure the other MOTUs in here have something else to mention as well :)
<dholbach> popey: sure... but it helps if you as a MOTU hopeful add a question and an answer you got to MOTU/FAQ for example
<dholbach> or ask on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com to review a text you just wrote for the wiki
<popey> ok
<dholbach> but I agree, it's not the optimal thing to start with
<dholbach> <stani> QUESTION: if I am only developping python applications and don't know C,C++,... is than packaging more easy to learn and will I be able to a potential motu packager?
<dholbach> stani: you certainly don't have to know all the programming languages there are
<dholbach> stani: if you're willing to learn, ask, try, fail and repeat again, that should be good :-)
<dholbach> people who attended the Packaging101 session on Monday might have experienced what is part of the MOTU action:
<dholbach> you often spend time to make a package build again, or you make sure that files get installed in the right place, etc
<dholbach> there are many different tasks around and surely not all require C skills
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: Do you have to be mindful of packaging for differench architectures than your own - i.e. I only have i386, no 64 bit, no sparc, is that a problem?
<dholbach> popey: no, not at all, if you build a package on your machine and it builds it's mostly safe to assume that it builds everywhere, especially if the upstream project existed for a while
<dholbach> popey: if the package ftbfs (fails to build from source), the friendly build daemon software will send you a mail and you can still ask a member of your team with that piece of hardware to help you debug it
<popey> "friendly" you say :)
<dholbach> (I have no sparc either... ;-))
<dholbach> <jjtec1> QUESTION: Is there a log of Mondays session?
<dholbach> oh that was answered already
<dholbach> If you want to join the MOTU and help making Universe ROCK, start here: http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/motu.png
<dholbach> I mean here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU ;-)
<popey> lol
<dholbach> <popey> QUESTION: Can you please by me a sparc ? :)
<dholbach> popey: ask fabbione - maybe has a spare sparc ;)
<dholbach> <siretart> QUESTION: are there plans for developer machines for MOTUs?
<dholbach> siretart: good question - I didn't attend the session at UDS
<ivan> testing
<dholbach> siretart: elmo and LaserJock are your best bets for that question
<dholbach> siretart: I know that there is work in progress concerning the PPAs (personal package archives)
<siretart> ok
<dholbach> siretart: but 'root access' on data center machines will not be easy to get past elmo ;-)
<dholbach> <evarlast> QUESTION:  I find packaging typical autotools things very easy, but what about guidelines for programs which do not use autotools?
<dholbach> evarlast: a lot of other packages do that: python packages using the python distutils (think setup.py), perl packages using else homebrewn, packages that just install files to a random place, etc
<dholbach> evarlast: there are guidelines for some sorts of packages and there are tools to make life of a package maintainer easier
<dholbach> CDBS for example has a python-distutils class, a perl class and so on
<dholbach> <jjtec1> QUESTION: elmo?
<ogra> the datacenter god we all have to pray to ;)
<dholbach> James Troup, our king of Infrastructure
<dholbach> Ok everybody, there seem to be no question left. Thanks everybody
<dholbach> (for those of you coming late: there's another session on Saturday at 16:00 UTC)
* ogra applauds dholbach 
<jrib> thanks for the session, dholbach
<dholbach> gracias
<irlie> thanks
* Gloubiboulga hugs dholbach :)
<rikai> Thank you very much dholbach, you've been enlightening!
<heikki> thanks to you!
<amnesia> dholbach: same session or something new
* dholbach hands the mic back to jono
<ypsila> thank you
<juliux> thanks dhaumann
<juliux> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> amnesia: I hope there'll be a bunch of new questions as I'll try to integrate the feedback of you all into the notes I had
<ypsila> pruhust
<popey> thanks dholbach
* dholbach hugs Gloubiboulga, jrib, ogra, juliux, ypsila and popey 
<popey> \o/
<PriceChild> that's a big hug :)
* popey gives dholbach a big wet sloppy kiss
<dholbach> haha
<Jucato> ew
<stani> thanks a lot!
* dholbach hugs the whole room :)
<Seeker`> popey! Down boy!
<Jucato> dholbach has long arms :)
<popey> Woof woof!
<ogra> Jucato, he trains them daily ;)
<dholbach> see you in #ubuntu-motu and on https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
<Jucato> lol
<jjtec1> that must hurt:-D
<WB|Diego> bye
<dholbach> and by the way, there's a HUG DAY going on on #ubuntu-bugs
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:dholbach] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next Session: Edubuntu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o dholbach]  by dholbach
<PriceChild> hug day or bug day?
<amnesia> both
<ogra> hug day ;)
<PriceChild> :)
<ogra> solving bugs gets paied with hugs during these days ;)
<amnesia> PriceChild: hug for a bug
<jono> hey
<jono> all set ogra ?
<ogra> ok, 5 past the hour seems like a good time to start ...
<ogra> soo ... Edubuntu !
<ogra> i'll give a short 10-15min intro and will be available for questions then ...
<ogra> Edubuntu is an ancient african word for "bring that free software education to the people" ....
<ogra> n just kidding ...
<ogra> *no even
<Riot777> lol
<ogra> edubuntu is an ubuntu derivative focusing on educational needs
<ogra> first specced out at the UBZ conference in sydney
<ogra> (by the founder of k12ltsp and the ltsp upstream guys)
<marcin32> hello all
<ogra> shortly after that spec was written canonical held an edubuntu summit in london
<ivan> QUESTION: there are several program frequently used in Engineering Studyies, like Opnet, Autocad, PSpice... is there any alternatives available y ubuntu OS
<ivan> ??
<bobafett> hllo?
<ogra> with a buch of educators attending and speccing out the needs of a first edubuntu release
<ogra> ivan please ask questions in -chat ...
<ivan> sorry
<ogra> there was an initial roadmap we wanted to implement ->
<ivan> I'm a novice in chat
<ogra> 1.) conquer the single classroom
<ogra> 2.) be able to be run in a complete school environment
<ogra> 3.) also be sized for municipalities
<ogra> the first edubuntu release was mostly build by me alone ...
<ogra> since i'm no educator the app selection only reflects what i could get as input from the educators attending the edubuntu conf as well as looking at other distros
<ogra> additionally we never cared which desktop an app belongs to, we try to select the best item for one task and dont care about the desktop environment ...
<ogra> ... which always turned out to be a challenge with the limited CD size we have ....
<ogra> QUESTION: are the K12LTSP folks working on Edubuntu now or are they still working on K12LTSP?
<ogra> eric harrison (funder of k12 is going on to develop k12 but helps out where he can (we are his fallback ;) additionally many devs from the k12 community started working for edubuntu
<ogra> QUESTION: there are several program frequently used in Engineering Studyies, like Opnet, Autocad, PSpice... is there any alternatives available y ubuntu OS ??
<ogra> there are things like qcad etc but indeed not all of them will direclyt work with files of any proprietary solution ...
<ogra> QUESTION: are there anyways we can help push edubuntu into schools when we don't have kids?
<ogra> edubuntu isnt only focused on school usage
<ogra> there are many libraries and even internet cafes that use it
<ogra> since the focus was on the single classroom use and edubuntu is also the platform that integrates the new ltsp implementation at the highest possible degree, people tend to use it in other areas as well
<NaMcO^> hi
<ogra> with the feisty release some major things will change in edubuntu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<ogra> we will have another educators conference to spot more and probably better apps for the new release
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Edubuntu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<ogra> we'll be able to ship way more apps since we'll be able to have a second CD now
<ogra> and we'll go for network authentication in feisty, which means we can easily grow to school level
<ogra> QUESTION: What is the age bracket that edubuntu was designed for?
<ogra> we decided that for the beginning we'd start with the lower grades and grow over time
<ogra> the status edubuntu is now i would say its for students from 6-15 years ...
<Sriram> QUESTION: What is the inspiration behind this great ubuntu movement
<ogra> but its planned to provide good enough app selections for universities from feisty on
<Sriram> QUESTION:Will Ubuntu find a space in enterprise segment
<ogra> QUESTION: I'm presenting a paper on using Edubuntu at a technology in teacher education conference. The focus is on providing access (and thus social justice) to provide access to teachers and students -- what message(s) would you like to see shared with teacher educators who are potential future users of Edubuntu?
<ogra> Siram please ask your questions in -chat ...
<ogra> most important for the current edubuntu team is to get as much feedback as possible on teaching methods and preferred apps at the moment
<ogra> finding the drawbacks in our app selection and improving it ...
<apral> QUESTION:Where does edubuntu stand now in education circles marketwise?
<ogra> we also need as much help as we can get on documentation and teaching content ...
<ogra> QUESTION:Will Ubuntu find a place in enterprise segment
<ogra> even though thats an edubuntu session, edubuntu will be the first to completely implement network authentication with single sign on etc as a base for enterprise usage ....
<ogra> ubuntu will be able to pull the good parts from edubuntu
<ogra> apral, well, if you look at google trends edubuntu seems to be quite visible to the community
<ogra> http://www.google.com/trends?q=edubuntu%2C+k12ltsp%2C+skolelinux
<ogra> but the others are established way longer than edubuntu, so its still some way to go here ...
<ogra> edubuntu has a great acceptance in southamerica (brazil specifically), africa and asia, its not used as much in urope or the us
<ogra> COMMENT to ogra's response: one of the things that this particular teacher education conference is highly interested in are iLife-like tools for digital storytelling like projects. Development of a "suite" of tools along these lines would be helpful.
<ogra> we'll see what we can find in that area, thanks for that comment :)
<ogra> in june this year RichEd joined the edubuntu team and took over the role of the educational programme manager ..
<ogra> he will care for the non technical parts and for more integration with educator needs
<ogra> QUESTION: There will be an additional cd (2X) shipped via ShipIt, beginning with fiesty ?
<ogra> it most likely wont be available via shipit ...
<ogra> but it will have the biggest set of additional apps and language packages we can fit on it ...
<ogra> i hope people will be able to at least buy it through the known channels ... so people with low bandwith will have all they need without being forced to have a network connection
<ogra> COMMENT: ogra: I think you misunderstood maccabeus' question. You answered about what teachers should tell edubuntu instead of what edubuntu advocates should be telling the teachers.
<ogra> well, edubuntu advocates should tell the truth, edubuntu is perfect for single classroom use in an environment for younger students, the installation of additional educational apps is very easy, but we rely on feedback ...
<ogra> (does that make it clearer ?=)
<ogra> we want to grow into the university and need input for that ...
<ogra> also the documentation side of things could be better ...
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy should give you something in your hand
<ogra> maccabeus, ^ is that what you are looking for ?
<ogra> QUESTION: <devilsadvocate> would'nt high schools be a better place to go to compared to universities?
<ogra> in fact we'll target both since they only differ in the teaching software selection
<apral> QUESTION:What does edubuntu offer now to get the younger kids interested :)?
<ogra> for sure we'll go for highschools first try to grow into the uni market over time
<ogra> <leetcharmer> QUESTION: Can you add or do you know of any software that would aid in science/math related courses -- such as Physics?  I need a method to write down the formulas quickly for notes, and studying.
<guglielf> apral: join #ubuntu-classroom-chat make your questions there
<Schnorg> formulals you can write with latex
<ogra> we have a MOTU team led by Jordan Mantha that is jst assembling a list of scientific apps for us to include in feisty
<ogra> thats for the university side of things ...
<ogra> <brian_> QUESTION: Is there (and what is it) a framework for developing Edubuntu apps?
<leetcharmer> I know I could use latex -- but, I need something simple to just type quickly as the prof goes
<ogra> there is no specific framework, all edubuntu developent is done inside of ubuntu
<ogra> we're a part of ubuntu and depend on its development, edubuntu itself is just added value packages, different artwork and deep integration of things like LTSP
<_ion> leetcharmer: I used texmacs a couple of years ago in a polytechnic.
<ogra> (added value like teaching tools)
<ogra> guys, can you take that to -chat ?
<leetcharmer> _ion, how was your experience with that?
<ogra> QUESTION: <jjtec1> How big is Jordan's team and is there room for help ?
<ogra> indeed ;) there is always room for help
<ogra> we're actively looking for volunteers in development, documentation and education
<ogra> <brian_> QUESTION: is there a Look-and-Feel standard for Edubuntu?
<ogra> sadly no, we tried to establish an artteam for edgy, but that ended up to be a single person
<ogra> i'm hoping there willbe more in that area for feisty
<ogra> <plagerism> Question:  Currently my school is looking to migrate to another Distrobution with some sort of Distributed Filesystem( to allow root access to an individual fs per Student).  The reason being is that *nix is the class.  Is there any software packages that would allow this, and if so Would Edubuntu Support it??
<ogra> not out of the box yet ....
<ogra> edubuntu will have a netbooted-diskless-workstation mode i ltsp for feisty though ...
<ogra> with some easy tweaks you can make it use things like AFS or GFS
<ogra> <devilsadvocate> (can anyone tell me if edubuntu is gnome-based?)
<ogra> the default desktop is gnome, but we ship all KDE libs and a lot of KDE software as well
<ogra> we try not to think in terms of desktop environments  in edubuntu even the desktop is gnome because of the wider support it gets from the canonical side
<ogra> <brian_> QUESTION: I've got 2 daughters in H.S. Algebra right now and I see a lot that can be done with an algebra app, but I'd like to have some infrasture code that would allow the user to drag symbols and numbers around
<ogra> all i can say is: point me to an open source app that supports this and we'll try to include it in edubuntu, i'm not aware of any drag/drop algebra app yet
<ogra> <devilsadvocate> Question : I've just seen the advocacy page and it seems most of the apps that give edubuntu the specialization are either DE neutral or are KDE apps  - why ship with gnome and then depend on kde apps? I've noticed that things like proxy settings and similar environment variables can get messy in such a situation. Why not just ship with KDE and have a more coherent interface?
<ogra> thats simply because the dektop team and support for gnome is bigger in ubuntu and edubuntu simply relies on the base desktop ...
<ogra> implementations of new stuff should be desktop independent
<ogra> i.e. the newly implemented ltsp manager will have gtk as well as qt frontends
<ogra> <jjtec1> QUESTION: So in fiesty, the aim of the first CD is still 6-15 year olds?
<ogra> thats a good auestion we'll have to discuss with out educational manager during the development process, there is no final decision about any apps yet
<ogra> but likely it will add support for the older students as well
<ogra> <brian_> QUESTION: That brings me back to my infrastructure question, education applications all need similair capabilities, wouldn't it be nice to have a toolkit around that we all could use?
<ogra> totally, but nobody stepped up to do such an effort yet ... edubuntu would majorly benefit from it ... especially if it would be desktop independent like freedesktop org implements things
<ogra> so i see there are no more questions ...
<ogra> i'd like to point everyone intrested in edubuntu and its development to the #edubuntu irc channel and the edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users mailing lists
<SimonAnibal> ubuntu-education as well
<ogra> <davmor2> QUESTION:  How much compatiblity is their between edubuntu and proprietary solutions
<ogra> well, there is as much as the proprietary solutions allow us :)
<SimonAnibal> (both #ubuntu-education and the ubuntu-education mailing list)
<davmor2> orga obiviously OOo
<ogra> its them that set the limit
<davmor2> for word
<ogra> <brian_> QUESTION: Desktop independence, is that really a goal?  If so why? You are your own distro, you can declare your own standard.
<ogra> well, indeed we can do that, but if you want to deeply integrate things like user management changes etc its helpful to have a big team in your back
<ogra> edubuntus desktop is standing on the sholders of giants like dholbach and seb128 ;)
<ogra> <devilsadvocate> Question - A mjor problem with selling edubuntu to a school is that the core use of computers is in teching programming languages - specifically Basic, C, in that age group. Is there anything that will help the transition from the windows environment to linux? Read as IDEs, compilers like QBasic. Also, are there attempts at making apps to familiarize young children with the linux environment itself?
<ogra> there are a bunch of programming enviroments and IDEs in edubuntu you can easily install via add/remove
<ogra> and indeed we have all freely avalilable compilers you can imagine ...
<dholbach> ogra: you're flattering me. :)
<ogra> heh, i only tell the truth ;)
<ogra> <gumpa> QUESTION: are support contracts available for edubuntu?
<ogra> indeed they are, go and buy them ;)
<ogra> ok, time is up, tanks everybody for your questions, feel free to drop by in #edubuntu any time
<jono> ok
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: The Ubuntu Community
<jono> right folks, the next hour is going to be a full Q+A session with me about the community, so start adding your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat now
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<jono> I am gonna grab a drink
<tonyyarusso> Like he said, write questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat (not here, to help things run smoothly), and put QUESTION: before them so they're easy to see.
<tonyyarusso> Basically, he'll take questions one at a time here, in an open but still structured manner, and other chatter can go in -chat so we stay focused
<tryggvib_>  /msg nickserv link tryggvib tb2204
<tryggvib_> crap
<tonyyarusso> Might want to change that password tryggvib_
<__lynX> Ouch. ^^
<neuro_> oh dear :)
<tryggvib_> how stupid was that :)
<MarkoKaa> :P
<neuro_> oh no, is jono doing another session?
<juliux> tryggvib, i think you should change your password;)
<neuro_> run, flee! :>
<jono> neuro_, heh
<jono> so any questions?
<neuro_> i kid, of course
<ogra> neuro_, just pull his beard ;)
<neuro_> or lack thereof :>
<neuro_> jono: has it progressed beyond bumfluff yet
<jono> ok I am going to kick off discussing some of the future direction of the communitu
* neuro_ runs into -chat :)
<jono> neuro_, :P
<jono> the ubuntu community today is a pretty diverse place
<jono> we have a number of different types of disciplines represented
<jono> for us to improve the community we need to make our teams much easier to join
<jono> and those teams need to be better connected and report their actions more
<jono> <neuro_> QUESTION: How different do you see the Ubuntu community to that of, say, Debian, Fedora, Slackware, or Gentoo?  Any pros and/or cons?
<jono> I see the Ubuntu community as a hugely open and transparant community
<jono> we don't suffer from the "water cooler effect" as much where developers working for a company talk to each other and don't update the community - our distributed community means that happens much less - sure it will happen to a point, but much less
<jono> I have a huge amount of respect for the other communities, particularly Debian
<jono> the Debian community has a strong base, and has become a pretty reliable place to be
<jono> rasman> QUESTION: How does the commercial side of Ubuntu fit within the community?
<jono> rasman, I think it is important that our commercial side (Canonical and other people who make money from Ubuntu and Ubuntu services) have a solid connection with the community
<jono> as an example, Christina Armstrong who is CJA in here, is our communications hero at Canonical - Christina is looking to work with the Ubuntu Marketing Team where possible to have a solid relationship
<jono> community is pretty much *all* about communication - the problems, the benefits, the blow-ups can often be tracked down to good or bad communication
<jono> I think when that communication between a company and the community is solid, we have a fair palette of expectations to draw with
<jono> <brian_> QUESTION:  How do you see Ubuntu driving the apps that get built?  And have the app projects themselves been coming to Ubuntu for input?
<jono> upstream developers base their process around predictable tools and platforms
<jono> as many of you will know, I am involved in the Jokosher project, and we have built our development roadmap around the Ubuntu roadmap
<jono> we did this for a few reasons:
<jono>  * so we can get Jokosher in Ubuntu
<jono>  * Ubuntu is hugely popular, which means a lot of people will use it when using Jokosher
<jono>  * Ubuntu is representative of a typical desktop - no crazy of funky crack that confounds expectations
<jono>  * A good solid release schedule that is pretty reliable
<jono> as such, Ubuntu provides a solid base for us to develop on, and a good roadmap for getting our app out there
<jono> and the reason why we chose the ubuntu roadmap?
<jono> because pretty much *all* our devs use ubuntu
<jono> <brian_> QUESTION: are conflicts within the Ubuntu community resolved by spinning off another MyUbuntu ???
<jono> conflicts are an interesting subject, and people have different approaches to them
<jono> some people try to solve conflict by forking
<jono> some try to solve it by creating new rules and governance
<jono> in some situations, these are temporary solutions to deep problems
<jono> we actively encourage derivative distributions, as many of them serve a purpose that Ubuntu does not exclusively
<jono> we also want to encourage that valuble aspect of free software - the ability to take free software and roll it your own way
<jono> but, I think with great power comes great responsibility :P
<jono> we need to ensure that digressions from Ubuntu make feature-sense - I would personally not like to see derivs that are the same direction as Ubuntu, but just derived for no-good-reason - that is a NIH problem
<jono> <mattl> QUESTION: Will you as community manager welcome people from the gNewSense community?
<jono> mattl, most certainly!
<jono> I am always eager to talk to people who have got interesting things and ambition
<jono> gNewSense is a good example of a deriv - it fits a need that Ubuntu does not 100% right now
<jono> I am certainly keen to work with other derivs
<jono> for many distros, Ubuntu offers a solid base that is built upon - take Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu etc
<jono> we need to collaborate together where it makes sense, but to be different where it makes sense too
<mattl> jono: as Mark Pilgrim says, "gNewSense is the reference implementation of software freedom"
<jono> what I don't want to see is people re-inventing the wheel
<jono> mattl, right
<jono> mattl, and that of course depends on your view of freedom :P
<jono> but thats another debate
<mattl> heh, yes it is.
<jono> <corstar> QUESTION: Have bounties helped in brining a wider userbase to Ubuntu or is that just some geek cred?
<jono> bounties have their place, and when used correctly, yes they do help
<jono> but bounties are not the only solution to getting people over to Ubuntu
<jono> bounties work well for certain things with a specific and targetted problem to solve, and with a certain type of developer
<jono> the problem with bounties is that they often don't offer up enough cash for people
<jono> I think growing a userbase and developerbase is an advocacy problem, and advocacy cannot be performed with a single technique
<jono> we need many feathers to our bows to get people over
<jono> <rasman> QUESTIONS:  What do you mean by Ubuntu roadmap?
<jono> rasman, the roadmap is the plan for Ubuntu is moving forward - it is the feature set and direction we want to take
<jono> this is usually done at a release level - dapper roadmap, edgy roadmap, feisty roadmap etc
<jono> <brian_> QUESTION: back to apps, are there plans or a mechanism to put Ubuntu specific features into any of them?
<jono> brian_, good question
<jono> brian_, I am not the best person to answer this, as the distro team probably is
<jono> but some apps have additional things rolled in, such as the help menu options that hook into launchpad
<jono> we also customise apps and add specific support where it makes sense, such as using the GNOME VFS where it makes sense in Ubuntu
<jono> with free software it often makes sense for upstream apps to build in the main features, and any specific integration additions are patched afterwards
<jono> but we are certainly keen that upstream apps get those features that benefit all distros
<jono> <sjoeboo> QUESTION: do you ever see some sort of "feature voting" taking place, allowing users and the like the ability to weigh in on specs when they are not able to attend the summits/confrences?
<jono> sjoeboo, we have informal process of feature voting now, but it requires people to offer comments on features
<jono> I doubt we will have polls about features as polls are inexact techniques of determining popularity
<jono> polls are just literally a popularity contest that can be stuffed by people with too much time on their hands
<jono> we are always keen that the wider community should offer thoughts and guidence on the direction of Ubuntu though, and we actively encourage people to take part in the spec writing process at the developer summits
<jono> of course, you don't need to be at the summits physically to take part in this
<jono> we are hoping to make this process easier as time goes on
<jono> <binary2k2> QUESTION: how important are LoCo teams to the ubuntu community?
<jono> binary2k2, hugely
<jono> binary2k2, LoCo teams are a key part of our community, and I am *really* keen to see them grow
<freakcode> What about proprietary software? Will it come as bundle in edgy+1, or is the team working in some type of tool to install via apt-get, upon showing a disclaimer to the user? If not, I think this should be an ideia, because many users rely on proprietary software (drivers, codecs), so a tool like that (more simple than using synpatic) should be more human-like
<jono> freakcode, not here post in -chat
<freakcode> sorry
<jono> np
<jono> my first month of Canonical was largely spent on Loco teams and improving the structure we have there - improving the docs, better organising the site, building regular meetings, improving communication between teams etc
<jono> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: how often do you talk to the different loCo teams... and why is the loCo team in my country in another irc server (unplug)
<jono> effie_jayx, I try to talk to as many teams as I can, and I am always keen to get feedback from teams, by my time is fairly limited and spread across the entire Ubuntu community, so I don't get a chance to talk a lot to everyone
<jono> effie_jayx, I also encourage that all teams have IRC channels on Freenode - and all LoCo enthusiasts should join #ubuntu-locoteams on Freenode
<jono> <corstar> QUESTION: Is there a meathod of advertising that we can use to gain maximum bang for our buck to spread Ubuntu?Maybe something similar to "spread firefox" What other meathods have worked for Ubuntu in the past?
<jono> corstar, good question
<effie_jayx> jono so I heard... but they insist on using unplug
<jono> this depends on how you frame the problem
<jono> effie_jayx, get them over here :)
<jono> corstar, I think this is an advocacy mission
<effie_jayx> jono will try...
<jono> I used to be a professional Open Source advocate in my previous job, and I spent some time trying different methods of getting people over to free software
<jono> again, it needs a multi-faceted approach - a single technique will not cut the mustard
<in_flames_666> how can the ubuntu users get involved in the community? #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> advocacy generally needs a consistant, sustained approach - that is why spread firefox was so successful, they kept pushing and pushing
<jono> but it also relies on having a solid understanding of your audience and what they need
<tonyyarusso> in_flames_666: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat, then ask there.
<jono> firefox had a relatively simple audience - web users
<jono> I think a lesson we should *all* take from spread firefox is that freedom was *part* of the selling point - they also hammered home the feature and security benefits
<jono> I personally think we need to stop the focus being 100% on freedom - the picture is MUCH bigger than just that
<jono> <tonyyarusso> QUESTION: There has been some discussion about a one-vote per approved member system for certain things though, still very much in the mildly pondering stage, has there not?
<jono> tonyyarusso, there has been some discussion, although afaik nothing is decided on
<tonyyarusso> right
<jono> we do like the fact that approved ubuntu members have been through a vetting process that identifies them as good contributors - we need to factor that into the decision
<jono> <rasman> QUESTION: Is there a guide to getting our LoCo to start meetings or adgendas or even tasks?
<jono> rasman, check out the main Loco pages at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams and see the HOWTO at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto - also see the knowledge base at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase and the FAQ at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoFAQ
<jono> rasman, I also encourage you to ask for advice on the loco-contacts mailing list - the people on there are exceptionally cool
<jono> rasman, the best advice I can give is to just go ahead and book an IRC meeting in a few weeks in your IRC channel and encourage people to get there - blog about it, mention it on the LoCo team's mailing list, mention it on the team's website etc
<jono> <freakcode> QUESTION: What about proprietary software? Will it come as bundle in edgy+1, or is the team working in some type of tool to install via apt-get, upon showing a disclaimer to the user? If not, I think this should be an ideia, because many users rely on proprietary software (drivers, codecs), so a tool like that (more simple than using synpatic) should be more human-like.
<jono> freakcode, nothing is cast in stone for Feisty (which is edgy+1), but are actively encouraging all application vendors to make their software available on Ubuntu
<jono> freakcode, we are keen to provide a solid free software Operating System that users can run what they need to on it
<PriceChild>  /msg jono https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation
<jono> <corstar> QUESTION: It must  feel great to be working for a company that has such high moral values, will Cannonical get much bigger or do you think they have reached a peak for now?ALso, what oppertunities will open in the future?
<jono> corstar, I do love working here
<jono> and I always wanted to work here
<jono> in my previous job there was a cutoff date of March 2007 for the project to finish and I may have gone back to freelancing, but Canonical was always #1 on my list of companies to approach
<jono> then the Ubuntu Community Manager position came up and I figured I would strike while the iron was hot :P
<jono> Canonical is growing, there is no doubt about that
<jono> we are company that is growing in engineering, community outreach, and critically, in our business operations
<jono> my responsibility is that community will always be part of canonical's growth
<jono> I am confident that the community and its central role in Ubuntu will always be a priority at Canonical
<jono> since I have worked at Canonical, it amazed me just how much it is a central focus
<jono> so yes, I think the moral standards will prevail
<jono> but I always welcome feedback, as does Mark
<jono> <in_flames_666> QUESTION: how can the ubuntu users get involved in the community?
<jono> in_flames_666, awesome nick btw \m/
<jono> in_flames_666, there lots of ways people can get in touch - and I recommend you figure out your own skills and interests and see which team they are best matched too - feel free to ping me if you are unsure
<jono> in_flames_666, also see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<jono> <brian_> QUESTION: Is there a feeling among the communtiy that Ubuntu needs a killer app or feature that will have people come running to it?
<jono> brian_, I think it depends on the demographic
<jono> I think we do need a unique factor to pull people to us - but that factor is typically "reliable, predictable software releases"
<jono> I also think Ubuntu is there to identify the future direction of Linux and what we need to include - so our next release will have the bling, and we are keen to explore presence and multimedia benefits
<jono> but like anything, this is a community project and we all need to play a part in what we do :)
<jono> <samgee> QUESTION: Is it important for an active community member to be on all relevant communication channels? What if you don't like IRC and/or mailing lists?
<jono> samgee, I think a member needs to be on the communication channels relavent to them - I could understand for example that a marketing person may only be on the marketing mailing list and in #ubuntu-marketing
<jono> its only some of us who are on virtually all lists
<jono> its certainly not an expectation :)
<jono> <rejden> QUESTION: In some cases it's obvious that the new ubuntu members, which basicly came to contact with FLOSS thru Ubuntu doesn't understand the involvement within various other projects like Open Office or KDE suite, don't you think in some cases this can damage the FLOSS community itself?
<jono> rejden, misunderstanding only damages a community if you don't work to fix the misunderstands
<jono> misunderstandings
<jono> I think there is some confusion about how the process works, and we could do with improving it
<jono> if someone is interested in getting involved to help clarify in a document the relationship between a distribution and an upstream project, do let me know
<jono> <mruiz> QUESTION: How non-english speakers LoCo teams can coordinate their activities? We don't have enough tools; For example, Planet Ubuntu is only for english speakers.
<jono> mruiz, translations is a great place to help - y'know, the translations aspect of Ubuntu really, really rocks some people, so we need to improve this all the time
<jono> mruiz, as for other services like planet, yes, we need to improve this - there is a spec for setting up per-LoCo planets to make this better
<jono> <rejden> QUESTION: After almost few years of involvement within the translation community many of us find out that translation made to rosetta (for example gnome) doesn't make it to the main application (GNOME in this case) and we lost many great translatorst because of that, is there any way that Ubuntu is thinkin about more support of these translation and their interaction to the main application?
<jono> rejden, I don;t know about this - best to ask jordi
<jono> rejden, bring that up in the next Rosetta session :)
<jono> <freakcode> QUESTION: Again about Cannonical... Many people, especially from other projects and distros, doubts about the Cannonical business plan, like "How can they ship CDs worldwide, for *free*?". Its obvious that Mark done the first step, but can Cannonical really profit only with the comercial support and third-party costumers?
<jono> freakcode, Canonical is a business, and Mark is a very good business man who has formed a good business team
<jono> I am not going to comment on our business direction, not because of any Uber Secret Plan (TM) but because it is someone elses job to figure out how we become profitable
<jono> it is important to stress though that Canonical is a well run ship with a careful budget - there is a misconception that Mark with his many-millions is happy to just pour it all in with no measurable outcome - we have a business direction and targets to meet
<jono> and always remember that like free software, businesses evolve - I am sure the Canonical business offering will evolve as new markets become available for us
<jono> any other questions?
<jono> or any other clarification?
<jono> <rasman> QUESTION: Business support versus Customer support?  How do they differ and how do you pay for them?
<jono> rasman, I don't quite understand the question
<rasman> jono, sorry I wanted to get the question in before you left.
<jono> rasman, what do you mean?
<rasman> jono, Do customer's need to pay for support or can they pay for support?
<jono> rasman, customers can indeed pay for support
<jono> <corstar> QUESTION: Would it be possible for ubuntu to do a similar thing to the "google summer of code:
<jono> corstar, nothing planned right now, but who knows? and no, don't take that as the start of a rumour people... :P
<gnomefreak> lol
<jono> <brent_cool> QUESTION: When are we going to see Ubuntu on Pocket PCs and/or Tablet PCs?
<jono> brent_cool, no immediate plans, but I would *love* to see a community project form around this - all the pieces are out there, anyone want to pull them together?
<jono> <debarshi> QUESTION: Where exactly do you draw the line between Debian and Ubuntu?
<jono> debarshi, thats a big question
<gnomefreak> jono: i was jsut reading something on that not too long ago abotu RHE was shipping on pocket pcs and or tablets
<jono> at a technical level, the project uses Debian and works to merge it into Ubuntu and provide patches back up
<jono> debarshi, at a social level we try to work with Debian as closely as possible - we are all Debian heads after all :P
<jono> <kudzubane> Question: Do you have a sense of how the explosive growth of the Ubuntu community affecting the Debian community?
<jono> kudzubane, there are no clear metrics for measuring this, so it relies on licking your finger and putting it in the air
<jono> I think the growth of Ubuntu will have mean't more being up to Debian, but on the flipside, there are no doubt people who have moved from Debian to Ubuntu
<jono> we are keen though that we have a co-existant relationship with Debian and collaborate together where possible
<jono> in the same way that Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu collaborate together on the core underlying system
<jono> <brian_> QUESTION:  Has Ubuntu thought about working with Universities to complete features?
<jono> brian_, recently we hired Richard Weiderman to head up our Ubuntu team - RichEd on IRC - he is keen to help factor in education at so many levels - I recommend you ask him this question
<jono> <corstar> QUESTION: Last night Mark doged the "Google OS" question nicley, can you confirm, deny or ignore any rumors? hehe
<jono> corstar, I am not aware of any Google OS
<jono> I am aware they love Ubuntu though
* NaMcO^ : bye
<jono> but a Google OS, its not something I have heard of
<jono> <finalbeta> question: Are you planning to somehow take into account more of the community input. The binary drivers thing is raging on mailing lists and forums. Is it not wise to actually listen to the end users, and not just the ones that make the most noise. Community voting or something. You can still ignore the result once you get them. But right now we read things like, "we will include proprietary code because people ask for it.
<jono> finalbeta, we are always keen to get community input, and I am keen to hear your ideas on how we do that - re. the binary drivers issue this is a big issue in itself, I recommend you contribute your thoughts to the spec
<jono> ok folks I am going to wrap up now
<jono> thanks for the excellent questions
<PriceChild> thanks jono :)
<corstar> Thanks Jono
<jono> as usual. get in touch with me if you need anything else :)
<thiebaude> thanks again
<brent_cool> Thanks Jono, love the podcast!
<binary2k2> great session jono
<ubuntu_rosso> thanks jono :)
<corstar> when's the next Lugradio due out?
<jjtec1> Thanks Jono
<ubuntu_rosso> was very interesting
<ka6wke> Thanks Jono!
<jono> corstar, Monday
<brent_cool> I wear Miguel's skin!
<corstar> SWEET< you guys ROCK
* jono laughs
<timinphx1> thanks
<freakcode> cya jono
<gnomefreak> jono: was this week your doing?
<jono> gnomefreak, I organised the sessions yep
<brent_cool> VERY COOL jono
<highvoltage> gnomefreak: of course it is, can't you see that smug smile on his face!?
<brent_cool> let's have more of these!
<gnomefreak> ping mark you nee da raise :)
<jono> ok, sabdfl is up next
<brent_cool> bye! thanks!
<mruiz> ping jono
<sabdfl> alrighty folks
<sabdfl> well done jono, both on your session and on the week
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<thiebaude> hi Mark
<jono> as usual, post questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat for sabdfl to answer - this is about the opensuse invitation
<jono> thanks sabdfl
<sabdfl> we called this particular session to discuss my invitation to the opensuse folks to join us in the open week
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: OpenSuSE Invite Discussion
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<sabdfl> if you want to post questions in -chat, I or jono will pull those into this channel one at a time
<sabdfl> fire away
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<tonyyarusso> @clear
<sabdfl> so far so good :-)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<jono> <Circus-Killer> QUESTION: what exactly were your initial intentions when you did that invite?
<corstar> can we ask space questions?
<sabdfl> (18:04:05) Circus-Killer: QUESTION: what exactly were your initial intentions when you did that invite?
<sabdfl> Circus-Killer: simply to make sure opensuse folks know about this Ubuntu Open Week
<sabdfl> (18:04:29) mattl: QUESTION: If you could do the invite again, what would you change?
<sabdfl> (18:04:30) cronholio: QUESTION: had you known the reactions beforehand, would you still have posted that invitation to your blog and/or the list?
<sabdfl> mattl, cronholio: i think i was blunt in the preamble to the invitation
<sabdfl> it would have been better to focus on the opportunities to collaborate between the distros, which are also interesting
<sabdfl> hopefully some opensuse folks are here, and those opportunities will get explored
<sabdfl> i AM very concerned about the novell deal
<sabdfl> and i know that many very senior open source developers feel the same way
<sabdfl> at least, those who understand how devastating a firm patent claim by microsoft would be
<sabdfl> i feel the novell folks who did the deal either did not realise what a potential trap they were walking into, or just ignored it in favour of the cash
<sabdfl> either way, its alarming
<sabdfl> (18:06:14) brent_cool: QUESTION: Would Canonical ever consider any kind of deal with Microsoft, after careful consideration of the impact?  Or is *any* deal with Microsoft always completely out of the question due to Microsoft's past?
<sabdfl> brent_cool: we actually have an open line of communication with different folks at microsoft
<brent_cool> interesting
<sabdfl> i exchanged mail with someone today who contacted me based on the comments i've made recently
<sabdfl> i'm not opposed to microsoft on principle - they've done a lot of good in the world
<sabdfl> it would be trite to take such a black-and-white view
<sabdfl> however
<sabdfl> they play a very hard game, and right now i think we are seeing the beginnings of a push back against linux
<sabdfl> part of that push back is competition - office 12 is going to be very cool
<sabdfl> good for them
<sabdfl> they are stepping up
<sabdfl> part of it is community - i think they have been studying community, and working out how they can get some of that vibe into their own scene
<sabdfl> hence the blogging, hence the open bug trackers, hence codeplex, hence their shared source licence
<sabdfl> all of that is cool
<sabdfl> and i would work with them on that sort of thing
<sabdfl> however, there's clearly a part of microsoft that just wants to be able to stop linux in its tracks, and right now I think patents are at the top of their list for that
<sabdfl> so we have to be very, very careful
<sabdfl> listening to Nat Friedman the other day, he said that Novell initiated the deal, and Microsoft then "just slipped in this patent idea"
<sabdfl> well, that was naive
<sabdfl> it's abundantly clear that this is a significant thrust back from microsoft
<sabdfl> if it succeeds, it will mean that linux can never be made freely available
<sabdfl> debian, fedora, ubuntu, gentoo would all effectively be illegal in places where microsoft files patents
<sabdfl> they file a lot of patents in south africa, for example
<popey> alan@wopr:~$ lspci | grep -i nvidia | wc -l
<popey> 33
<popey> eek, sorry
<sabdfl> popey: yer welcome
<sabdfl> so, to sum up
<sabdfl> i would work with microsoft on some things, compete on others
<sabdfl> on the patent issue, i think we need a furious defense
<brent_cool> IBM :)
<sabdfl> (18:05:42) freakcode: QUESTION: How do you see it affecting Ubuntu. I mean, like Novell suporting and developing apps for GNOME, that Ubuntu makes use (F-Spot as example). If I'm not wrong, it uses Mono. Is there any "fears" about those components, being taken off in the next release, in order to avoid future problems with Novell?
<sabdfl> freakcode: at this stage we have no plans to change package selection based on these events
<sabdfl> i don't believe that microsoft actually plans lawsuits in the short term
<noela> hi
<sabdfl> however, we need to make it clear that option is not open to them, so they focus on pure competition
<Nat_> Hi
<Nat_> I felt this tingling sensation on my neck
<LjL> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sabdfl> (18:06:09) highvoltage: QUESTION: Mark, have you read http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1281 , and do you think that it is appropriate that my local company go in and advise them about Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> highvoltage: yes, i think a commercial response will send a strong message
<sabdfl> as would developers leaving to work elsewhere
<sabdfl> (18:06:28) corstar: QUESTION: have you noticed, Novel has stopped development support for HULA? Do you think this is a trend that will sadly continue after "The Deal"?
<sabdfl> i don't think the HULA decision was related to the deal
<sabdfl> too much conspiracy there :-)
<corstar> haha
<sabdfl> (18:06:57) daxelrod: QUESTION: What is the Ubuntu agreement with Mozilla? Does it propagate to Ubuntu derivatives?
<sabdfl> simply that we maintain an open line of communication, and they are happy for us to use the firefox brand at the moment
<manthusergoth> Hello
<sabdfl> in future, of course, we might go in different directions, but both fo us are committed to working out whatever issues arise
<mattl> manthusergoth: go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sabdfl> w.r.t. derivatives, ubuntu would be a natural conduit for the necessary discussions
<sabdfl> derivatives are free either to work within that, or fork
<sabdfl> (18:07:05) mattl: QUESTION: Have you had any contact with any execs at Novell since they made the announcement, or since your post?
<sabdfl> no formal contact, only conversations with angry developers
<dudanogueira> hehehee
<mattl> heh. do you intend to make any contact?
<sabdfl> (18:07:35) rejden: QUESTION: regarding novell and microsft deal about patent issues which now are mostly applyable only in us the opensuse community suffered some kind of stress about that deal. Will ubuntu/canonical prefer to have similiar agreements with the IPR holders, or even cross-patenting with competition or you will prefer to stay on the other side (lets say the real 4 freedoms as defined by the GPL)?
<sabdfl> its clear we need to take a more active stance on patents
<sabdfl> we'll review the situation and make announcements in that regard when we're ready
<sabdfl> for now, its clear our public position is one of strong opposition either to the existence of software patents
<sabdfl> or to their use to block access to markets by free software developers
<sabdfl> in particular, i'm concerned about the chilling effect of patent threats on the willingness of developers to contribute to free software
<sabdfl> (18:07:57) LoudMouthMan: QUESTION : Mark unlike other distros your far more visible as a figure head (in my opinion )  and therefore you  are a target for criticism  when you post any comments. How do you feel about that ?
<sabdfl> Sometimes I wish my feet tasted better
<finalbeta> gross
<sabdfl> It's particularly difficult in cases where I have very strong personal opinions
<sabdfl> the good thing is that this is an open community, so members express their own opinions just as loudly
<sabdfl> we have had several ubuntu folks publicly take a different position to me, and i like that
<sabdfl> (18:08:47) fliegenderfrosch: QUESTION: Were you surprised by the largely negative reactions?
<sabdfl> I knew it would be controversial, I said as much in the mail
<sabdfl> (18:09:09) kalon33: QUESTION: What do you think is great in Suse that we haven't in Ubuntu ?
<sabdfl> I think they have some excellent configuraiton management in YaST that I would like to see in Ubuntu
<sabdfl> PPPOE, apparently
<sabdfl> also, server side config
<sabdfl> contributions welcome :-)
<sabdfl> for the rest, i haven't ever used it so can't comment
<sabdfl> (18:11:34) rejden: QUESTION: adding to my previous one, did Canonical made any patents/trademark/copyright  (IPR) except the legal trademarks of the names and logos? In EPO (European Patent Office) or in United States. Is Canonical considering applying to make patents in the future? What kind of patents that will be?
<sabdfl> no, we have never filed for patents, though we often say "gee, this would be a great patent" when we are working on new code
<sabdfl> there's a lot in bazaar, from example, that would have been patentable before we released it as GPL
<sabdfl> same in LP and of course int he core distro
<sabdfl> our livecd approach, ltsp work etc
<sabdfl> but we have never filed for patents
<sabdfl> (18:13:59) KHatfull: QUESTION: If Microsoft does pursue IP suits against Linux how would the Linux community be able to defend itself?  Would there be enough evidence to support the notion that there's no Microsoft IP currently being distributed?
<sabdfl> It's quite possible that there is code in Linux which does infringe a Microsoft patent
<sabdfl> In general, the response could be threefold
<sabdfl>  (1) show that Microsoft in turn violates a patent, or more, which is held by a Linux-supporting company, thereby acting as a deterrent
<sabdfl>  (2) Rework the code to avoid the specific terms of the patent
<sabdfl>  (3) Agree to pay patent fees
<sabdfl> Number (3) has issues with some free software licences
<sabdfl> We avoid shipping some GPL software, for example, because of patents
<sabdfl> (18:19:07) popey: QUESTION: Do you feel this deal taints the developers who work for Novell on FLOSS products such as SAMBA?
<sabdfl> No
<sabdfl> I think the developers were entirely out of the loop on this one
<sabdfl> There may have been some senior guys who heard about it before the announcement
<sabdfl> but I don't think this was a deliberate step from the developer side
<sabdfl> (18:26:06) KHatfull: QUESTION: If Microsoft decides to pursue IP suits and Ubuntu, as a very high profile distro, becomes a target, how vigorous a defense will you/Canonical be able to mount?
<sabdfl> We are particularly vulnerable to this
<sabdfl> We have no patents with which to mount a deterrent
<sabdfl> Nor do we have deep pockets for a protracted lawsuit
<sabdfl> That's just how it is
<sabdfl> So you can see why I'm very concerned
<sabdfl> The same is true of all the distros which aim to be freely available
<sabdfl> I'm interested to know how the Microsoft deal relates to OpenSUSE
<riot_> hi @all
<sabdfl> It's easy to see how a paid product, like SLED, could include the fee to pay Microsoft ("to not sue you")
<sabdfl> but with a free, community product, it's not possible to collect the fee
<sabdfl> (18:26:38) corstar: QUESTION: so, would you guys "ever" patent anything(to protect Open source). Or does that go against the FOSS?
<tonyyarusso> riot_: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<sabdfl> if we did file patents, we would licence them to GPL implementations, freely
<riot_> ok thanks
<sabdfl> (18:28:26) Nat_: QUESTION: Novell, Red Hat, IBM and others put a lot of resources into funding the Open Invention Network and providing it with patents to use to protect Linux in case someone decides to sue a Linux user or distributor for patent infringement.   Will Canonical participate in OIN?
<sabdfl> Hi Nat_ :-)
<sabdfl> We've asked IBM for further details on OIN
<sabdfl> We have no patents to contribute, and do not have deep pockets
<sabdfl> but it may be that our participation is useful from other perspectives
<sabdfl> if so then they may be willing to let us in on terms that would work for us
<sabdfl> and then yes, that would be something we could do
<sabdfl> (18:29:13) tuxub: Question: Mark, do you think that european community has enough strong will to stand up against microsoft patent politics and, maybe in a few years time, make a turn to openly embrace and promote open source usage by european companies?
<sabdfl> So far so good
<sabdfl> I think this will require eternal vigilance, though
<tuxub> :)
<sabdfl> since the pressure from IP holders to expand the scope of their property is very high
<sabdfl> and there is not a strong voice for the commons
<sabdfl> however
<sabdfl> the free software movement, and now also the creative commons movement, have gained significant mindshare
<sabdfl> hopefully, that continues to build
<sabdfl> (18:29:27) andresmujica: QUESTION:  Do you expect that ubuntu evolves as a mainly desktop distro or are you planning to put more effort at server side?   Is any chance that SUSE's expertise on KDE would help the kubuntu's development?
<sabdfl> andresmujica: we are currently hiring both desktop and server developers
<sabdfl> (18:29:57) amachu: QUESTION: Education sector the real arena where Ubuntu can prove decisive.. Mark, how do compare with Microsoft's educational suites with Edubuntu?
<sabdfl> I think the best thing that free software does in education is DIVERSITY
<sabdfl> we don't (yet) have the best word processor
<sabdfl> though we have at least three *pretty good* ones
<sabdfl> what we do have is a huge spectrum of tools
<sabdfl> for all sorts of disciplines
<sabdfl> music, art, maths, physics, statistics, programming, design
<sabdfl> you name it
<sabdfl> and those tools are free of charge
<sabdfl> and OPEN
<sabdfl> you can see how the tools work
<sabdfl> and you can shape them
<sabdfl> that's a treasure chest for education
<sabdfl> especially in places where the kids are often smarter than the teachers
<sabdfl> so, we should focus on that
<sabdfl> (18:30:29) oblio: QUESTION: what do you think about mono entering gnome base? after all, it's surely cause for concern at M$\
<sabdfl> The mono guys have done awesome work
<sabdfl> it would be very sad to have that come under a cloud now
<sabdfl> at this stage, we have no plans to drop mono because of these concerns
<sabdfl> Novell has said that they believe there are no patent issues
<sabdfl> and we believe that is in good faith
<sabdfl> (18:34:37) jjtec1: QUESTION: What can we as community do to influence this bad deal?
<sabdfl> jjtec1: first, i thnk the terms of the deal are not yet set in stone
<sabdfl> i suspect there is a lot of activity internally at novell
<sabdfl> with developers trying to help set things right
<sabdfl> add your voice to theirs
<sabdfl> speak with opensuse folks and see if you can help them make the case for novell management to take a stronger line
<sabdfl> also, watch gpl v3
<Amaranth> *shudder*
<sabdfl> i hope that this deal does not upset the balance of the v3 discussion
<sabdfl> we need v3 to be a balanced licence, not unduly influenced by the issue du jour
<sabdfl> but this has certianly thrown the patent question into stark relief
<sabdfl> (18:35:02) MisterN: QUESTION: is Canonical / Ubuntu actively lobbying against software patents? (i already asked but with wrong case)
<sabdfl> we have not done enough
<sabdfl> individually, canonical folks have always spoken against software patents
<nic__> =] ] 
<sabdfl> but we are not part of a formal lobby group, for example
<sabdfl> (18:39:47) _MMA_: QUESTION: With IBM's seemingly great support for linux do you think they would do well to jump back into the desktop market? Ubuntu-powered IBM desktop anyone? ;)
<sabdfl> No, I think IBM is not yet really engaged in the desktop market
<sabdfl> for them, the focus remains servers
<sabdfl> they sold their desktop PC business (and were very happy to get rid of it)
<sabdfl> that said
<sabdfl> they do have a big global business managing office PC's for other companies
<ka6wke> +w
<sabdfl> that's where I would expect them to climb in
<sabdfl> (18:40:27) sjoeboo: QUESTION: mark, You recently blogged a bit about the pros and cons of non-free drivers and codecs, and reasons to include some and not the others. Has a "final" decision been made about non-free drivers from here on out?
<sabdfl> this is tangential to the opensuse discussion, but it's controversial and topical so...
<sabdfl> no
<sabdfl> no final decision has been made
<sabdfl> the discussion is ongoing on ubuntu-devel, forums, blogs, email
<sabdfl> i've expressed an opinion, as have other members of the tech board
<sabdfl> i think the final position will be a nuanced, careful, clear one
<sjoeboo> thank you
<sabdfl> that maintains our commitment to making your hardware work, while still promoting only free software applications
<sabdfl> we are unlikely to become gNewSense
<sabdfl> nor are we suddenly going to become Mint Linux
<sabdfl> our place is in the middle
<ompaul> :)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> i tihnk that's all the opensuse related questions in -chat
<sabdfl> Nat_ from opensuse is here, i'd like to invite him to speak a bit if he wants the floor
<sabdfl> "you're in a maze of twisty tunnels, all looking the same"
<sabdfl> "Nat_ is here"
<Panzerboy_> lol
<Nat_> You were killed by a grue :-)
<tuxub> :p
<Nat_> Thanks for the invitation to say something, I appreciate that, but I was just hear to lurk and listen :-)
<sabdfl> story of my life :-)
<Nat_> I do think a lot of people misunderstand and blow out of proportion the Novell/MS deal
<Amaranth> Nat_: Tell a joke?
<Nat_> I can understand why people would be concerned about a partnership with Microsoft, but I guess I'd ask people to look at the situtaion and try to see if there's really a real harm being done.
<Nat_> And if people have questions I'm glad to field those :-)
<Nat_> Here or elsewhere
<Nat_> I'm also on another phone call right now so I'm not really as articulate as, like, I'd want to be
<Nat_> ;-)
<sabdfl> ok, questions for Nat_ in -chat, i'll post here
<Nat_> Thanks :-)
<oblio> Nat_: for microsoft, no harm :))
<sabdfl> (18:52:13) jku_: QUESTION: Nat_, so you disagree with sabdfl about the meaning/importance of the patent-part of the deal? Do you see no ill effects for the free software community?
<eboogie> Nat_ : can you clarify the comments steve balmer made about the future infringements?
<Nat_> Personally I think we got MS to acknowledge that Linux is real, that it matters; we got a lot of money from them that we can use to continue to subsidize writing free software -- software that shows up in Ubuntu, for example; we didn't violate the GPL and I don't think there's any real harm to any other parties.
<apokryphos> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<eboogie> you're right...my bad.
<sabdfl> (18:52:16) KHatfull: QUESTION: (for Nat_) Can you give us the short 3-5 sentence statement on what the Novell/MS deal means to someone iside openSUSE?
<Nat_> Microsoft has been making threatening noises about Linux and their patents for years and years, that's nothing new
<Nat_> I think it menas basically nothing for someone inside opensuse, except I hope it means that we get to hire more people to contribute to opensuse.
<Nat_> One of the things we asked Microsoft to put in the deal, and which they tried to put in, is a promise never to sue a person for their association with free software
<sabdfl> (18:53:03) LoudMouthMan: QUESTION: NAT_ can you introduce your self and clarify your relationship with OPensuse and Suse/Novell ?
<sabdfl> drumroll...
<Nat_> They didn't do a great job of that, but they're going to redraft it and we hope to see something improved at some point soon :-)
<Nat_> Oh, I'm Nat Friedman, I cofounded a company called Ximian in 1999; in 2003 we sold it to Novell; now I'm CTO of the Linux group at Novell.  I live in Germany.
<sabdfl> (18:53:27) Bourlotieris: QUESTION: "No real harm done" - do you believe that Balmer would make the UNACCEPTABLE announcement he did a few days ago if there was no deal with Novell?
<Nat_> Well, first I agree that Ballmer's statements were totally unacceptable
<Nat_> and our CEO published an open letter in which he said the same thing
<sabdfl> (18:53:38) apokryphos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Friedman
<Nat_> But, it doesn't take a lot of google searching to determine that he's been saying approximately those same things for years and years, independent of any dealings with Novell
<Nat_> So, yes, I think he would have been saying that stuff anyway.
<Bourlotieris> Only now Novell is relished from that
<Nat_> Novell is not released
<Nat_> Microsoft could sue Novell at any time, that's not prohibited in the contract
<Nat_> We would be protected by our own patent portfolio (which we could use to sue Microsoft back) and by OIN, which we helped create.
<Nat_> If you don't know OIN -- check out www.openinventionnetwork.com.  it's a company that pools patents and uses them to protect Linux
<Nat_> so if someone sues Canonical, or Red Hat, or Debian, over a Linux-related patent infringement, OIN will sue them back
<Nat_> Novell helped OIN get all of the patents they have today.
<sabdfl> Best news I've had all day :-)
<sabdfl> Ok, thanks very much Nat_
<Nat_> Novell didn't actually need that protection itself (becuase we already had ~400 patents)... but we did it anyway
<Nat_> yep
<Nat_> thanks for the chance :-)
<sabdfl> yer welcome
<sabdfl> in closing
<sabdfl> i do want to apologise to anyone offended by my direct invitation to opensuse devs
<zorglu_> is it suitable to ask question about ms/novell deal now ?
<sabdfl> i don't in any way believe that opensuse devs had any malicious intent in the novell deal
<Amaranth> zorglu_: we're wrapping up, about to run into someone else's time
<sabdfl> and i do believe that the devs are likely helping, behind the scenes, to straighten things out
<sabdfl> thanks to Nat_ for shedding some light on that process
<PriceChild> thanks sabdfl, Nat_
<sabdfl> and thanks to everyone for questions and for joining in
<sjoeboo> yes, thanks sabdfl and Nat_
<zorglu_> Amaranth: too bad :)
<corstar> sabdfl for PM
<sabdfl> jono: who's up next?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<Amaranth> jordi:
<PriceChild> Translations with Rosetta - Jordi Mallach
<jordi> Hey
<jordi> wow, it's time already
<sabdfl> hey jordi
<sabdfl> floor is yours
<jordi> good!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Translations with Rosetta
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Amaranth]  by ChanServ
<silwol>  /msg nickserv info nat_
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Amaranth]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<jordi> okay, let's do it!
<apokryphos> silwol: busted :P
<silwol> hihi
<jordi> Welcome to the second Ubuntu Open Week session devoted to
<jordi> Rosetta. I'm Jordi Mallach, and have been working with Carlos and
<jordi> Danilo in Launchpad's Rosetta team for a while, trying to be the
<jordi> bridge between the developers and our users and translators.
<eboogie> great info Nat_!
<jordi> I'll be taking questions in #-chat, but it's wise to wait until the end of my dump, as some questions might be addressed in this introduction
<jmbuser> sabdfl, Nat_:Thanks for the excellent discussion
<noela> bona tarda, jordi :)
<jordi> Rosetta is one of the components that make up Launchpad,
<jordi> Canonical's service platform.
<jordi> Launchpad is made up of five major components: a bug tracker, a
<jordi> request tracker, a specification tracker, a "source code"
<jordi> supermirror and Rosetta, a web-based translation portal.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<Amaranth> eboogie, jmbuser: New session, please thank them elsewhere. :)
<tonyyarusso> @clear
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<Neonightmare> join chat
<jordi> Christian Reis will talk tomorrow about Launchpad in general, so
<jordi> let's focus on Rosetta. You can also read the logs of yesterday's
<jordi> Launchpad session also led by kiko.
<jordi> Rosetta's aim is to make translation of Free Software as easy and
<jordi> non-technical as it can get. The Rosetta team has been working on
<jordi> creating an interface which hides the specifics of the Gettext PO
<jordi> file format, which is the standard for translating Free Software,
<jordi> thus lowering the barrier so anyone with a reasonable knowledge
<eboogie> thank you!
<jordi> of English can help out with the translations of their favourite
<jordi> project into their mother tongue.
<tonyyarusso> Neonightmare: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jordi> Rosetta is the main translation system of Ubuntu Linux, and is
<jordi> the source of all translations which appear in the Ubuntu
<jordi> releases, and in the frequently updated langpacks. Rosetta is
<jordi> also designed to help program authors getting their applications
<jordi> translated.
<jmbuser> sorry
<jordi> A close look on the Gettext PO file format
<jordi> Most of the software in your desktops use a standard translation
<jordi> interface called GNU gettext, which is in charge of showing the
<jordi> applications in the language the user has chosen. Application
<jordi> programmers need to take care of marking all the user-visible
<jordi> messages (or strings, as the initiated tend to call them) with a
<jordi> special marker which can be extracted to plain text ".po" files.
<jordi> We translators use these files to translate the applications.
<jordi> Let's look at how a PO file looks. I've put some examples in
<jordi> http://pusa.informat.uv.es/~jordi/ubuntu-school/
<jordi> Have a look at the ubuntu-school.pot file. A POT file is a "PO
<jordi> Template", that is, an empty PO file ready to be translated.
<jordi> Looking at the contents of the file, you can see the format is
<jordi> pretty straight forward: each original string in English (a
<jordi> msgid) has its corresponding translation (msgstr). While simple,
<jordi> the po format is quite fragile. One missing quote, and your
<jordi> entire application build will fail with a syntax error. There are
<jordi> several very popular PO file editors which help the editing
<jordi> process: KBabel, PoEdit, GTranslator, Emacs PO-mode...
<jordi> Rosetta goes one step further in easing the translation of these
<jordi> PO files, using a clean, web-based interface which hides the
<jordi> format, presenting only sets of string/translation pairs that you
<jordi> can fill up. Once the work is done, it's stored in its database
<jordi> where the information can be exported or shared among other
<jordi> projects.
<jordi> Rosetta is, as hinted before, divided in two main branches: one
<jordi> serves to translate the applications of the people who request
<jordi> it. For example, the Gobby collaborative editor is being
<jordi> translated by Rosetta contributors, after its authors requested
<jordi> us to set it up for them in Rosetta. On the other hand, Rosetta
<jordi> is the platform from where Ubuntu gets all its translations.
<jordi> We'll focus on Ubuntu a bit more now.
<jordi> Ubuntu translations revolve around the Ubuntu translation teams,
<jordi> which coordinate and produce the translations which get shipped
<jordi> with every new version.
<jordi>    https://launchpad.net/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators
<jordi> woot, I just deleted part of my file :P
<jordi> 20:03 < tuxub> QUESTION: Jordi, how can anyone became a translator and work "for the cause"?
<jordi> tuxub: the correct way is to request to join the relevant team in the list above, if it exists for your language
<tuxub> portuguese
<jordi> ie, if you want to translate German, join the ubuntu-l10n-de group in Launchpad, *and* fild out how your group operates
<jordi> ok, join pt then :)
<tuxub> :)
<jordi> by how it operates I mean get on the mailing list, work with other team members, etc.
<dudanogueira> tuxub, for brazilian portuguese translators, you can join on #ubuntu-br-tradutores :)
<jordi> the team leader will approve you or not depending on the team's policies
<jordi> Here you'll see a list of teams which belong to the Ubuntu
<jordi> translation teams. While Rosetta is open enough to let everyone
<jordi> with a Launchpad account contribute, there is need for some
<jordi> access control, to protect quality, avoid vandalism, etc. Being
<tuxub> hum -> portuguese from portugal :)
<tuxub> ;)
<jordi> part of one of the translation teams grants you "write" access to
<jordi> every translation for that language in Ubuntu. Still, if you're
<jordi> not a member of your language's team, you can still go ahead and
<jordi> translate. Your contributions will be also stored in Rosetta's
<dudanogueira> tuxub, ok... anyway :)
<jordi> database as "suggestions", but won't appear in Ubuntu's language
<jordi> packs until a member of the team reviews and validates them.
<jordi> Rosetta offers a long list of applications that can be
<jordi> translated. Taking the French team as an example,
<jordi>    https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/fr
<jordi> we can have a look at how their translation status is for the
<jordi> Ubuntu Edgy release. I like showing the French team because they
<jordi> are really an amazing example of completeness.
<jordi> Rosetta presents us a list of applications which are ready to be
<jordi> translated to French, and their current translation status. As
<jordi> you see, the French have done their homework and there's barely
<jordi> no red bars, meaning "untranslated". See the bottom of the
<jordi> page for the meaning of the bar colours.
<jordi> Let's see how we'd translate an application. Close to the top of
<jordi> the list is "launchpad-integration". We'll pick this one as it's
<jordi> easy and short.
<jordi>    https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/launchpad-integration/+pots/launchpad-integration/fr/+translate
<jordi> If instead of French you want to have a look at your own
<jordi> language's translation, simply replace "/fr" in the URL with the
<jordi> corresponding ISO 639 code. You can find the code for your
<jordi> language here:
<jordi>    http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
<jordi> Rosetta will present us with a few interesting bits in the main
<jordi> body of the page. The most important one is the original string
<jordi> and the translation field where you'll store your translation.
<jordi> (oh, please tell me if I'm going too fast, I'm trying to speed up things so there's more time for q+a than on Monday)
<jordi> In our case, the first string is "The Launchpad helper
<jordi> application failed", which is already translated to French as
<jordi> "L'assistant Launchpad a chou". Below the accepted translation
<jordi> there is a list of alternative translations suggested by other
<jordi> people. You can quickly navigate through the translation fields
<jordi> using the tab key. Once you have completed all the strings in a
<jordi> page, you want to save your work: hit "Save & Continue" at the
<jordi> bottom, and if there are more strings to do, Rosetta will then
<jordi> show them to you.
<jordi> There are other bits that can help the translators while they
<jordi> work on a translation: you might want to see what the translators
<jordi> to a language similar to yours used in a string that is hard to
<jordi> translate, for inspiration. You can get such information using
<jordi> the "Make suggestions from" widget at the top of the string list.
<jordi> Also, you'll be more interested in seeing the strings that need
<jordi> work instead of those which are translated already. You can
<jordi> filter the kind of messages you want to see using the "Show"
<jordi> widget, where you can select from "all", "unstranslated",
<jordi> "translated" and "needs review".
<jordi> While the web interface has allowed many Ubuntu users help out
<jordi> with the translations to their language, there's certainly
<jordi> die-hard, old-time translators who will prefer using their own
<jordi> tools (obscure emacs modules and weird command line tools!) to
<jordi> work on their translations. Or there might be people who cannot
<jordi> afford to be online during the whole translating session.
<jordi> To help them, Rosetta has an import/export mechanism, which
<jordi> allows you to easily upload translations you have worked on
<jordi> offline, using your own ways, but you still want to see
<jordi> integrated in Rosetta, and download your finalised files so you
<jordi> can do whatever you want with them: back them up, send them to
<jordi> your team's mailing list, send them to the upstream author so
<jordi> they get included in the next release...
<jordi> Importing and exporting is easy: to download your work, use the
<jordi> "Download" and "Upload file" links in the left-side box when
<jordi> viewing a translation template.
<jordi> When requesting a download, Launchpad will prepare the file for
<jordi> you and will email you the location of the desired export.
<jordi> Importing is similar. Just fill in the field with the location
<jordi> path to your file, and rosetta will integrate it in the database
<jordi> -- note the file upload mechanism is disable right now due to
<jordi> technical reasons, we expect to be able to resume normal
<jordi> operations very soon.
<jordi> Okay, so you've worked on the files you were interested in, and
<jordi> Rosetta now has all the info. What happens now?
<jordi> Ubuntu will, on a monthly basis, extract all the translations
<jordi> from the database and put them in the "language packs" for each
<jordi> supported language in the distro, which will automatically hit
<jordi> your Ubuntu mirror the 1st Monday of the month. This way, Rosetta
<jordi> allows people to keep improving the support for their language
<jordi> even after a Ubuntu release has shipped. For example, more than 6
<jordi> months after the release of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, there's a group
<jordi> working on adding Dzonghka support to Ubuntu, when there was
<jordi> close to nothing included in dapper initially.
<jordi> The Rosetta team get asked a few frequent questions regularly. I'll try to
<jordi> address a few of them before moving to the Q+A slot.
<jordi> Rosetta has a limitted workforce behind it, and people wonder how
<jordi> can they help us getting their desired features implemented, if
<jordi> Rosetta's code isn't at this moment Free Software.
<jordi> sabdfl has explicitly expressed his desire to free chunks of
<jordi> Launchpad when Canonical is ready to do it. It will take time,
<jordi> but we have public statements in this direction. If people want
<jordi> to help out, access to the code can be granted via a NDA scheme
<jordi> -- there are some people doing this already.
<jordi> People always ask us for this or that feature they'd really want
<jordi> to see in Rosetta. The best way to request them is to file bugs
<jordi> against Rosetta in Launchpad, so they can be tracked by the
<jordi> Rosetta developers. You can have a peek at what the team is
<jordi> currently working on by looking at the list of Rosetta specs:
<jordi>    https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+specs
<remaxim> Is here some space left for a question? Do you beliefe that ubuntu could run without the financial support of Mark in near future?
<jordi> remaxim: if that's addressed at mark, the session is over, but if he wants to answer, I have no problems
<jordi> if it's addressed at me, well, it's out of my scope, but yes, of course it can. :)
<remaxim> jordi: it was addressed to you, if you can answer it aswell
<remaxim> thanks
<kiko-fud> remaxim, #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jordi> Ubuntu in particular has built an impressive community in 2.5 years. If Canonical pulled the plug and the Ubuntu Foundation didn't get any funding, the many community members would surely kkep developing it
<jordi> there'd be changes, but it would continue, I'm sure.
<jordi> Back to rsetta now :)
<freakcode> jordi, LaunchPad and Rosetta is crucial to Ubuntu model of development. So, how can it be integrated in Ubuntu desktop (tools)?
<jordi> Another source of FAQs is how to deal with the fact that sometimes, Rosetta and upstream projects (such as GNOME or KDE) end up with divergent sets of translations. This is due to the fact that Ubuntu translators can change/fork the translations coming from upstream sources in Rosetta, or even create them before they exist in CVS
<jordi> freakcode: kiko might want to input here, but if Canonical went out of business, the Launchpad would probably be freed, and it would continue to operate more or less.
<jordi> This divergence of translations between upstream and Ubuntu causes some grief in some teams
<sabdfl> jordi: +1, LP would be freed if Canonical died, and the Ubuntu Foundation would carry Ubuntu forward
<kiko> well, that's an interesting question. I can assure people that Canonical would provide Launchpad would a decent exit strategy if it was considering going out of business, but to be honest that is not on the discussion board right now -- nor has it ever been. we are growing! :)
<jordi> We're working on measures to make it easy to revert it, but it is also important to have Ubuntu translators understand that they need to work closely with upstream so these situations are rare, not th enorm
<jordi> So we'll be seeing a few changes in how ubuntu l10n teams work in the future
<tom56> jordi: When I suggest a translation, it doesn't seem to appear on the page. Have I done someting wrong?
<tom56> *something not someting
<kiko> tom56, are you sure that's what happened, or was it just that you moved on to the next page?
<jordi> we're discussing introducing the figures of the "reviewers" to help team leaders select who can "commit" into the translations and who can't
<jordi> at the moment we just have members and non-members. Non members can suggest, and those suggestions need to be manually integrated.
<jordi> tom56: it doesn't appear as a suggestion for the string?
<tom56> jordi: No
<tom56> https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/nautilus/+pots/nautilus/en_GB/+translate?field.alternative_language=en&start=1140
<tom56> I suggest "Wastebasket" instead of "Trash" or the current translation "Deleted Items"
<jordi> if there are many suggestions, only a few are displayed, I believe. They might appear in the detailed view (see the + link near the original string in the page)
<tuxub> are there any portuguese translators around?
<tom56> jordi: Not there either
<jordi> tom56: I don't have time to look at the specific bug right now, but we can have a look at it later in #launchpad.
<tom56> jordi: Sure, thanks
<jordi> Which, by the way, is the IRC channel where you can contact the Rosetta team: danilos, carlos and me.
<tuxub> #launchpad
<jordi> Other people in the channel may be able to help if we're not available at some time
<jordi> you can ask questions in the #ubuntu-classroom-chat, if there are any
<Ltsvenks> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat,
<jordi> it seems some people are trying to digest al the infomation I just dumped here. :)
<tuxub> yap :)
<jordi> 20:33 < dand> jordi: and maybe care to expand on the kind of changes "we'll be seeing [...]  in how ubuntu l10n teams work in the future"? :)
<jordi> ok, so those following the rosetta-users list will know the quality problems have been a major topic during the last months
<jordi> during the last company meeting, the rosetta developers spent quite some time discussing it and how to improve workflows to avoid them
<jordi> The biggest source of problem is oversized teams
<jordi> right now, any member in a translation group has rights to translate... or tamper with any translation of any package in main.
<jordi> This is good, it opens the door for many people to contribute, but in some cases it has caused problems as teams would be accepting basically anyone who knocked at the door, not even knowing if they knew just a little bit of English
<jordi> the results were that some languages were seeing a few bad translations in some areas.
<jordi> We recommend that team leaders be very careful about this now, and some teams have developed some guidelines and internal rules that are working well for them
<jordi> for example, the Italians and Brazilians are working through a mailing list, and newcomers basically are "tested" to see if they can be trusted to do good translations, or need some training
<jordi> they are pointed at the glossaries, style guides, etc which are relevant for the translations they'll focus on, and they are also taught to contact upstream translators if any, so they can cooperate
<jordi> this avoids crappy translations, and duplicate translations between upstream and ubuntu
<jordi> also, we want to help get rid of the "divergence" problems by making it easy to identify what strings have changed in Ubuntu with respect to the originals, so they can be corrected in Rosetta, or in upstream CVS, whatever applies
<jordi> and also, there's talk about introducing a new level of membership in teams, as outlined before
<jordi> 20:35 < alefteris> QUESTION: Would you advice translating a few parts of ubuntu, like gnome, upstream to avoid regressions and use rosseta for ubuntu specific packages only? Is it possible to block the translation of specific packages in in rosseta and get translations only from upstream?
<dand> sounds great, thanks jordi :)
<jordi> alefteris: this more or less overlaps with what I explained above
<jordi> but no, we don't want to lock upstream translations in rosetta
<jordi> this is by design.
<jordi> Upstream translations are notperfect, and one of the great, unique features in ubuntu is the ability to update translations not even after upstream has shipped their tarball
<jordi> but also after ubuntu itself has shipped a final CD release, via the langpacks system I explained before
<jordi> so, if there's a big, ugly typo in  your Bulgarian gnome-panel, the Bulgarian translators can fix it in dapper after the release even, and won't have to see the typo during the next 3 years.
<jordi> what I explained before applies: even if these changes can be made, we encourage the ubuntu translators notify upstream translators about the problems they find, so these changes swim upstream too
<jordi> this way, everyone wins: ubuntu gets instant updates via langpacks, the rest of GNOME users will see the ubuntu fixes with the next GNOME release.
<jordi> 20:39 < mruiz> QUESTION: hello. Currently I have an horrible translation bug for nm-applet. (spanish -> still there!) What's about QA translation in Rossetta?
<jordi> mruiz: I'm not sure I get your idea. If there's a bug in nm-applet, it can be easily fixed in Rosetta so next month it won't be there anymore.
<jordi> We are working on a "Review mode", if you mean this
<mruiz> ok
<jordi> This would ease reviewing the already done translations. This feature is top priority right now, should be in Rosetta very soon.
<mruiz> jordi, how usually do reviews are made?
<jordi> mruiz: it entirely depends on the teams. If a team is well organised and schedules a "review squad" every now and then, the benefits can be very visible
<jordi> but that requires a lot of manpower, and unluckily, not all th teams have it
<mruiz> I proposed many fixes to spanish translations... I must coordinate with spanish team?
<jordi> how did you propose them?
<jordi> via suggestions?
<mruiz> jordi: yes, via LP
<jordi> mruiz: if you're a member of the Spanish team, you should be able to make the changes directly.
<mruiz> ok, them I will join to spanish translators team
<jordi> If you aren't, you should contact one member and tell them about your proposals, so they can integrate. And immediately after, you should join your Spanish tam :)
<jordi> 20:47 < adrian3> QUESTION: [practical]  I have a question about some translations... some are a kind of "O_pen..." How do I translate them ? ( "open" for example in italian language is "apri" and in romanian language is "deschide"), but what to do with that underscore ?
<mruiz> jordi: thanks for yours answers
<jordi> adrian3: "_" characters are accelerators. They are transformed into the underlined letters you see in your menu iteams, which make them accesible via alt+<underlined letter>
<jordi> if using the same letter as in English is impossible, just use another one.
<mdke> it's important to be consistent between applications for those letters, right?
<jordi> Be careful not to use a letter that was already used by another item of the same menu, though
<jordi> it's hard to refine these, can mostly be done only by testing the translation after writing it
<OgMaciel> adrian3 it is always a good ideia to find out from the local gnome/kde/mozilla/oo2 groups what their standards are
<OgMaciel> mdke that would be ideal
<jordi> mdke: yeah, for most of the usual menu items they will be as the items come from base libraries like gtk+, kdelibs or libgnomeui
<jordi> but yes, for consistency it's good to have Alt+F for File everywhere, etc
<jordi> 20:51 < dand> QUESTION: any specific plans on improving OpenOffice support?
<jordi> dand: very specific plans indeed :) Rosetta will very soon be able to export OpenOffice data in the language packs.
<dand> yay! :)
<jordi> OpenOffice.org support and Firefox support are also top priority for the team right now.
<jordi> we still have 5 minutes!
<jordi> more questions?
<jordi> danilo and I have plans to work on good documen tation for rosetta in the following weeks. Hopefuly, many of the questions you have today will be easily solvable by them
<mdke> I have one
<jordi> 20:56 < alefteris> QUESTION: Is there a way to quickly test the translation of a specific package on the actual gui? Would be super cool!
<jordi> alefteris: no, other than requesting a po download and placing it in the correct place of your file system so the application could have the very latest translations
<jordi> that's time consuming, but that's how you do it :)
<jordi> or, you can use pitti's daily generated language packs.
<alefteris> link?
<jordi> I'm afraid I don't have the apt line handy right now
<jordi> anyone?
<jordi> hm, I'll try to dig that answer as we go
<jordi> 20:57 < OgMaciel> jordi [QUESTION]  When will you guys unlock upload of .pos?
<alefteris> ok thanks
<teprrr> sorry to interrupt, but isn't it possible to work a bit more with other projects' translation teams?
<jordi> I'm not sure about the fcurrent status of the bug that is causing this (translations were being reverted to old values), but I know carlos is doing good progress, so it'll hopefully be soon
<jordi> teprrr: we've been discussing that during the session. The answer is yes, it's not only possible, but being encouraged as much as possible.
<tonyyarusso> done jordi ?
<tonyyarusso> mdke: ready?
<jordi> Okay, if there's no more questions, I think it's mdke's time!
<mdke> yeah, if jordi is finished
<carlos> the code is ready
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<sabdfl> rock on
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tonyyarusso] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Documentation
<jordi> thanks everyone
<sabdfl> thanks jordi
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<carlos> we are doing QA tasks
<sabdfl> thanks carlos
<sabdfl> mdke, floor is yours!
<alefteris> thanks a lot jordi
<carlos> sorry for the late answer
<Bourlotieris> thank you jordi
<mdke> alright, thanks. Welcome everyone, I'm going to talk about Ubuntu documentation
<jordi> np, see you in #launchpad if you need more from us!
<mdke> I'll do a little introduction.
<mdke> tell me if I go too fast
<mdke> The documentation team is completely made up of volunteers. The core team is [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc but many others contribute to documentation all the time.
<mdke> To find out how to communicate with us, see [WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
<mdke> The ultimate reference page for any information is [WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mdke> There are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces.
<mdke> 1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called Docbook XML, and is hosted in our repository.
<mdke> that's what you get when you click System->Help->System Documentation
<mdke> 2. Online documentation - composed of an html version of 1, and a community driven wiki ([WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community)
<mdke> clear so far?
<mdke> ok. First I'll start by talking about 1. System Documentation
<mdke> So, how can you contribute to these documents
<mdke> Diving in and trying things out is the best way to begin getting involved.
<mdke> Download our repository, and start getting familiar with the markup language by reading and editing some existing documents. We have a validation tool included which will tell you where there is an error in the document markup. If you are confused, you can ask in #ubuntu-doc or on the mailing list, and you will generally get some help, but you should be patient!
<mdke> Low hanging fruit for those wishing to get involved:
<mdke> Proof reading is a good way to get involved. Also, we have a number of bugs open about typos, errors, omissions, which you can try and fix. See [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bugs and [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bugs (in the latter link substitute ubuntu-docs with xubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs if interested in that variant!)
<mdke> We have some key tasks we want to look at for the next release of Ubuntu
<mdke> these are:
<mdke> 1. Improving the navigability and readability of the help ([WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp).
<mdke> that's our major specification we're working on right now
<mdke> 2. #
<mdke> 2. Incorporating material from the Official Ubuntu Book into appropriate sections in the system documentation, amending the style accordingly.
<mdke> 3. Addressing areas which are missing from the documentation, in particular by reviewing material on the wiki/forum/mailing lists and converting it to docbook for inclusion in the system documentation (there is a good tool for doing this conversion).
<mdke> 4. Updating existing information which is no longer valid due to inclusion of new features in Feisty.
<mdke> so that's a whistlestop overview of the system documentation. Does anyone have some questions specifically on that aspect of the documentation? Afterwards I'll talk about the community-driven wiki
<mdke> but let's have a few questions now, otherwise I feel like I'm talking to myself...
<kudzubane> i've got one in -chat
<mdke> can you ask in in here?
<mdke> it*
<kudzubane> QUESTION: Is the HTML non-wiki documentation generated from DocBook as well?
<mdke> yeah. The material you see at https://help.ubuntu.com is simply an HTML version of our system documentation
<kudzubane> Question: Is the documentation project also responsible for the Ubuntu book?
<mdke> kudzubane: no, we're not responsible for the book. That's done privately
<kudzubane> member:jmbuser_
<kudzubane> :
<kudzubane> Question: What tools are you currently using for producing system documentation?
<mdke> one moment
<mdke> one more point on the book
<mdke> it's under a free license, so as I mentioned, an important part of this release cycle will be dedicated to integrating it with the system documentation
<Burgwork> kudzubane: no, the official ubuntu book is done by Prentice Hall and Canonical
<Burgwork> however, as mdke points out, it is under a free license
<jonathan_> join ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mdke> ok, the tools question now
<kudzubane> i seem to remember reading the book is done voluntarily
<mdke> kudzubane: no, that's not correct: the authors are private individuals who are paid for it, but they are also community members
<mdke> but the documentation team isn't involved
<kudzubane> thx
<mdke> so, the tools. As I say, the markup is called docbook xml, which uses tags a bit like HTML
<mdke> it can look quite complicated, but it is very easy to get a feel for how to add things
<teprrr> jordi, ah, okay. just thinking that translate this application page doesn't clearly show that you're only translating for ubuntu.. and another thing is that it's currently impossible for translation team leaders to update things to upstream
<mdke> that's the basic tool. Can the person who asked the question clarify what they wanted to know?
<mdke> no?
<mdke> ok, any other questions on the system documentation? I should probably mention translation, which is a key task too
<mdke> the documentation gets translated using Rosetta, in the same way as other Ubuntu programs
<jmbuser> my followup is posted in-chat
<mdke> jmbuser: feel free to post it in here
<jmbuser> ok, more specifically, what editors do you use or is it a matter of personal taste?
<mdke> personal taste. I happen to like gedit myself :)
<mdke> bluefish can be nice too, and lots use emacs/vi/nano/whatever
<apokryphos> Quanta+ is very good for docbook, too
<Burgwork> the Kubuntu peope use kate as well
<teprrr> mdke, are you translation documentation for non-ubuntu related stuff too?
<jonathan_> nano is always usefull (not great, but usefull)
<teprrr> mdke, if so, it'd be nice to have those translations to upstream too..
<mihakriket> Is thier a template for the docs?
<jmbuser> Last part: Do you use any specific gedit plugin?
<mdke> ok, I'll answer these questions now. Hold off on them for a while
<apokryphos> (just a note that http://quanta.kdewebdev.org/tutorials/quanta-docbook/quanta.html had a good docbook+quanta howto)
<mdke> teprrr: no, as far as I know, no upstream documentation is translated in Rosetta.
<mdke> jmbuser: no, I don't use any plugins.
<teprrr> mdke, okay.
<jmbuser> mdke: thanks
<mdke> mihakriket: we have a couple of templates yes. They are in our repository under incoming, see for example: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/incoming/
<mdke> however the best way to work is to simply open up an existing document and explore that.
<mdke> one very important thing to emphasise
<mdke> if people don't understand how to use docbook, we'll accept input from anywhere: bug reports, mailing list, wiki articles, and so on
<mdke> that brings me on nicely to the wiki material, so I'll explain that, then take more questions
<mdke> so this is the wiki at https://help.ubuntu.com/community
<mdke> to contribute:
<mdke> Simply log into the wiki (using your launchpad account), and correct errors you find in documents. Read existing documents to become familiar with the wiki markup, which is very simple. Above anything else, read the wiki guide: [WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.
<mdke> a good guide to our wiki markup is at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnEditing
<mdke> it's very simple.
<mdke> Low hanging fruit for those wishing to get involved:
<mdke> One way of becoming familiar with the material and how we work is to begin reading it and checking it for accuracy. Report any bugs at the above links!
<mdke> A number of more substantial "wiki-tasks" (as well as a list of pages that need serious attention) are listed on [WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo.
<mdke> The key tasks for improving the wiki over the next release are:
<mdke> 1. Improve the self-maintainability of the wiki by introducing easy tools for quality assurance ([WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance). This spec needs ideas, discussion and eventually some code!
<mdke> 2. Once we have a nice system in place, doing quality assurance to ensure users are given reliable information and can quickly identify how reliable a page is.
<mdke> 3. Improving existing material and adding new material to the wiki, in particular drawing on the immense resources offered by the forums ([WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum)
<mdke> 4. Clarify the license of material on the wiki by convincing the Community Council to approve the year-old specification ([WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing).
<mdke> (there are quite a lot of links in this presentation, I'll make some notes available so that people can read over them and take in the pages I've linked to with a bit more time)
<mdke> A long-term goal (at least for me) is to bring the system documentation and the online documentation closer and closer together, so that eventually it is easy for the system documentation to draw on contributions via the wiki,
<mdke> and (the other side of the coin) users to browse and search all of the available documentation via a single interface, be it via the online website or the system help viewer. This goal is rather a large one, and is essentially waiting on the right tools to come together.
<mdke> Ok. That was a quick summary of the wiki documentation material we have. I've come to the end of my prepared presentation, so we can dedicate the rest of the session to questions.
<mdke> feel free to post questions in here, but please wait until I've answered the previous question. Who's first?
<mihakriket> To edit the documents on the wiki, do you need to be a member of the docs team?
<mdke> mihakriket: absolutely not. You need to log in, and then you can go ahead and edit. If you are making structural or seriously large changes, it's a good idea to discuss them on the mailing list, but otherwise, basically free reign at this time
<mdke> mihakriket: any follow up questions to that?
<mihakriket> No, thank you.
<mdke> cool. anyone have another question?
<daxelrod> Ok, if nobody else has a question... is this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/53691 appropriately assigned to the doc team? Or is there someone else it should go to?
<mdke> no, that should be on "installation-guide"
<daxelrod> Ah, OK, thank you. I'll change that.
<apokryphos> <kudzubane> Question: Is the documentation project also responsible for the Ubuntu book?
<kudzubane> that one has been answered
<mdke> apokryphos: we've answered that question
<mdke> more questions! Don't be shy
<apokryphos> ah ok, sorry. /me scrolls up
<violot> Did I miss all lessons today again? :(
<somerville32> Nope :)
<violot> Yay! :D
<violot> How many are left?
<mdke> that depends... on whether people have some more questions for the documentation session
<violot> Dang, I wish I'd made that one
<daxelrod>  <KHatfull> QUESTION: Are proper backup/restore/disaster recovery procedures/documentation something being looked at?
<violot> Sweet, I getta see the Xubuntu one
<violot> Too bad school limits me to the last lesson only :(
<mdke> KHatfull: no, we don't have any system documentation about that. It would be a nice thing to include. There may be material on the wiki, if so, then maybe it can be tidied up and transformed into something that can be included in the system documentation
<mdke> KHatfull: if you're interested in working on that, that would be great. If not, you can open a bug and hopefully someone will be inspired to look at that area
<KHatfull> Thanks...
<daxelrod> QUESTION: What level of expertise are assumed of the reader of documentation? Or does it depend on what is being documented?
<mdke> good question
<mdke> yes, to some extent it depends on what is being documented. We tend to try and assume the level of expertise is something around what we envisage as being the level of the average Ubuntu user
<mdke> so we try and make it as easy to understand as possible, even for someone who is new to Ubuntu
<mdke> but we tend to assume some experience with computers
<Burgwork> we also assume that the reader is more familar with and more comfortable with graphical tools
<mdke> some documents cover the basics, and others more advanced subjects, of course
<mdke> good point Burgwork
<mdke> daxelrod: is that somewhere near an answer to your question?
<daxelrod> mdke: Yes, thank you.
<mdke> cool. Anyone else have some questions? Are people reading interested in improving documentation in Ubuntu?
<mdke> we could sure use some help, and it's a great way of getting involved in Ubuntu for newcomers and experienced users alike
<dnkorte> if someone wanted to get involved in proofreading, whom does he contact?
<violot> I'd be interested maybe in some docs.
<lazywanker> QUESTION: sorry if this has been covered already.  how are k/x/ed/ubuntu specific docs integrated with the ubuntu (read: gnome) docs.  is there a section for the ubuntu-common stuff that covers all distros?
<mdke> dnkorte: our mailing list is a great place to start. and diving in :)
<mihakriket> Yes.
<dnkorte> where to signup for mailing list?
<mdke> lazywanker: some material is common between the distributions. For example the server material, packaging guide, and the desktop based material is kept as similar as possible
<mdke> lazywanker: x/ed/ubuntu do not have very much overlap, to my knowledge
<mdke> dnkorte: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
<violot> QUESTION: Where do you need help in the docs the most?
<violot> Or what do you need help on... etc.
<mdke> violot: that rather depends on whether you are interested in contributing on the wiki or to the system documentation
<lazywanker> mdke: wrt to previous question. surely then you're going to get alot of overlap and/or people having to hunt in two places for an answer?
<mdke> I mentioned some key tasks during the presentation. I won't repeat them here, but I'll make my notes available on the mailing list, on the wiki and on my blog
<violot> mdke: Thanks :)
<mdke> lazywanker: can you explain what you mean in a bit more detail?
<mihakriket> I would be interested on working on the wiki. I sometimes have time @ work to go online.
<daxelrod> QUESTION: The hardest part for me in learning about Ubuntu has been going from some aspect of the integrated system to the name of that component. Is there some index that maps one to the other? (Example: LiveCD Installer <-> Ubiquity)
<violot> mdke: Got a link to your weblog?  I'm not familiar with you, don't think I've seen you before :)
* daxelrod is sorry for jumping in early with that question by mistake
<mdke> mihakriket: that would be great. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo are the key pages
<mdke> violot: it's at http://www.mdke.org
<violot> Ah, :P
<mdke> daxelrod: np. I'll wait for lazywanker's explanation, then answer yours
<thebigearl> QUESTION: I want to help translating the system documentation to german. how can i do that?
<lazywanker> mkde: continue without me   i take agest to type
<mdke> thebigearl: all you need to know is how to use the [WWW]  Rosetta translation system. You can find out how to use that on the Rosetta wiki page. Once you have learnt all of this, the docteam documents can be found in several places: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs, [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/kubuntu-docs, and [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/xubuntu-docs. 
<thebigearl> thanks
<mdke> daxelrod: ok, your question
<mdke> daxelrod: no, to my knowledge there isn't any such material. Usually, that's more of a task for people interested in contributing, rather than for users, who often don't need to know the names of programs
<daxelrod> That's my main problem, I'd like to go from user to contributor.
<mdke> daxelrod: ask ask ask is the answer
<daxelrod> And I'm sure many others would as well.
<mdke> daxelrod: in irc channels, mailing lists, and so on
<daxelrod> Ok, fair enough. Thank you!
<mdke> any other questions?
<lazywanker> mdke:  bob wants to know how to do job x in kubuntu.  job x can be done in a number of ways, via cli, via guis in the various DEs.  bob doesn't know if he should hunt through the ubuntu wiki/help, the kubuntu wiki/help or what?  each place offers different methods.  obviously the gui stuff is different but the cli stuff is too since they are completely seperate.  how does he know which is 'right'?
<mdke> lazywanker: ok, I understand
<daxelrod> lazywanker: Very good question.
<mdke> since Bob uses Kubuntu, he should use the Kubuntu help system (where the shared material appears, as well as Kubuntu-specific material). As for online material, Kubuntu and Ubuntu share the same online website.
<apokryphos> (including same wiki)
<mdke> (wiki = website)
<lazywanker> great. thanks :)
<daxelrod> QUESTION: Has vandalism been a problem with the documentation wiki? I could see somebody replacing useful instructions with instructions to trash the system, for example.
<mdke> no, so far it hasn't. People tend to keep an eye on key pages, and we haven't experienced serious problems
<daxelrod> Thanks!
<mdke> the wiki software has some access control systems which we can use if problems arise, but so far it hasn't been necessary
<Burgwork> daxelrod: we also disallowed anon edits, which removes some of the driveby vandals
<mdke> does anyone have any other questions?
<daxelrod> Thank you! The doc team does great work.
<mdke> we'll answer any questions you think of on the mailing list, and in our irc channel. We'd also be very interested in ideas and feedback you have
<somerville32> Thanks! :)
<mdke> ok, if no one has any last questions, we'll pass onto the next session
<mdke> who's doing it?
<maxamillion> somerville32 is
<apokryphos> Ok, if there's nothing else we'll take a short break now before the next talk, which is Xubuntu. :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
<mdke> cool
<maxamillion> :)
<somerville32> Yeah for Xubuntu! :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next Session: Xubuntu
<somerville32> Ok, I guess we'll start in a few minutes. :)
<tictacaddict> phew so I'm not too late
<maxamillion> nope :)
<apokryphos> somerville32: ok, feel free to take it away :)
<somerville32> Alrighty! :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Xubuntu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
<somerville32> Welcome everyone to the Ubuntu Open Week Xubuntu Session!
<mihakriket> Thanks mdke. I will check on the links you gave us.
<somerville32> There are a few things I'd like to go over and then I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
<somerville32> I'd ask that you please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and we'll make sure to work through them and answer them the best we can. :)
<DenisTheMenace>  /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<somerville32> First off, I'd like to introduce myself.
<somerville32> My name is Cody Somerville, I've been using Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu for some time now (And loving every minute I might add).
<somerville32> I'm also an Xubuntu developer.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o somerville32]  by ChanServ
<somerville32> I'd also like to introduce some of my colleagues.
* maxamillion notes that somerville32 is also part of the xubuntu.org website admin team
<somerville32> Maxamillion, who has been a great help in developing our new website
<maxamillion> hello everyone!
<somerville32> TheSheep, who has made numerous contributions all across the board
* TheSheep waves
<somerville32> And I'm sure there are others lurking about but I'm not going to waste time scrolling through all 328 names.
<somerville32> So... What _is_ Xubuntu?
<somerville32> Xubuntu, as you may know, a GNU/Linux operation system that is built on top of the Ubuntu base.
<somerville32> Xubuntu makes use of the Xfce4 desktop
<somerville32> and is shipped with top quality packages from the Ubuntu archives. Xubuntu will use, as far as possible, GTK2 applications, ensuring maximum efficiency.
<somerville32> However, since Ubuntu is built on the Ubuntu base, you can also install your KDE and Gnome applications.
<somerville32> It is a common misconception that Xubuntu is only suitable for low-end desktops.
<somerville32> I'd like to dispell that myth.
<somerville32> Xubuntu and the Xfce4 desktop is fast, efficient, friendly to use but also carries a strong feature set.
* maxamillion notes that he uses Xubuntu at work on an Athlon64 X2 4600+ machine w/ 2gb ddr2 ram
<somerville32> Xubuntu IS ideal for old or low-end machines, thin-client networks, and also for those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.
<somerville32> Our aim is to provide the best desktop experience possible we can and we're working towards that goal.
<somerville32> So, what kind of things are we working on?
<somerville32> The Xubuntu Team is assisting upstream development - Thunar, Xfce4, etc.
<somerville32> We've also taken responsibility for some of the light-weight, alternative software on launchpad
<somerville32> ie. bug triage, working with upstream developers, etc.
<somerville32> We're also working at improving our documentation efforts - both for official documentation and the wiki.
<somerville32> The Xubuntu wiki pages have seen massive reorganization and updates in the last few weeks
<somerville32> And the efforts continue to improve in these areas.
<somerville32> Xubuntu Artwork is something I'm really proud of.
<somerville32> J Mak, TheSheep, and the rest of the Xubuntu artwork team have been doing an awesome job.
<somerville32> Programming, packages, and development has also seen a recent surge in activty.
<somerville32> Jani, Crimsun, Gloubiboulga, TheSheep, etc. have all been working really hard on different projects to help improve Xubuntu and give back to the Ubuntu project as a whole.
<somerville32> Vincent, Adam, and Jonathon have done some amazing work with our new website.
<somerville32> And we've all been working very hard to give back Ubuntu and all the sister projects through advocacy and other individual efforts.
<somerville32> So, how can people get involved with Xubuntu?
<somerville32> Getting involved with Xubuntu is extreamly easy!
<somerville32> We have a very detailed adaption of the Ubuntu contribution page available at: http://xubuntu.org/devel
<somerville32> # Join the Xubuntu-devel mailing list
<somerville32> # Join us in #xubuntu-devel on irc.freenode.net
<somerville32> # Join us in meetings to help network with others and share ideas
<somerville32> Once you've gotten yourself settled, you'll want to look at getting involved in one of our teams/projects such as the wiki effort, documentation effort, artwork effort, etc.
<somerville32> Once you've made some sustained contribution, you can feel free to join the Xubuntu-team team on launchpad to become an official Xubuntu developer.
<somerville32> I guess I can take some questions now :)
* somerville32 scrolls to the top to get the first questions.
<NeilW> Why no games *at all* in Xubuntu as distributed?
<somerville32> NeilW: Currently there are no games included by default in Xubuntu but that may change in the future.
<somerville32> I know when I first tried linux
<C_Mooney> Will you ever impose a limit on Xubuntu - ie when will it become *too* bloated?
<somerville32> NeilW: I really enjoyed trying out the different games that came with the distro - I see it as a good icebreaker.
<apokryphos> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jeanvial> QUESTION: In the future you thing include a Xubuntu distro for PC Pocket?
<fzap> Q: what is the minimum hardware requirement for running xubuntu.
<NeilW> Yes, I think that's my feeling too.  You don't need everything but a few games make a nice entry to using a new machine.  And for while waiting for the printer....
<somerville32> C_Mooney: We're constantly supervising and re-evaluating our goals to ensure things are kept in check.
<maxamillion> jeanvial: no, it would still be a little heavy for something like a pocketpc, there are projects for pocketpcs that use gui toolkits geared for embedded systems
<somerville32> C_Mooney: However, the end-users are the real check and balance. If people start complaining then we're ready to listen and to respond.
<jeanvial> ok
<somerville32> jeanvial: That currently isn't one of our goals but I'm not counting the possibility out.
<maxamillion> fzap: minimum for a _usable_ installion would be 200Mhz w/ 64mb of ram (128mb of ram recommended)
<somerville32> fzap: My main box is a 333mhz w/ 128mb of ram
<jeanvial> well
<somerville32> Fzap: It runs ok but it can get bogged down if I run too many heavy applications due to lack of ram.
<TLE> < Bourlotieris> QUESTION: Will there be any Beryl effects in Xubuntu Feisty as is planned for Ubuntu (GNOME) ?
<jeanvial> Well, thanks to everybody for your great effor
<somerville32> There is a compositor built into Xfce4 and it can be enabled in Edgy.
<TLE> < jjtec1> QUESTION:Any particular times more busy than others in the irc?
<somerville32> jjtec1: In the evening, Xubuntu can get very busy.
<somerville32> I'm not sure if I could give you an exact time though.
<TLE> < tictacaddict> QUESTION: Xubuntu seems to get left out sometimes in news updates, how-to's, wiki entries, etc.  People will mention Ubuntu and  Kubuntu but leave out Xubuntu.  Is that because it's relatively new?  Because people don't like XFCE?  What?  I feel like it isn't  getting the coverage it deserves.
<maxamillion> 15:26 < bruenig> QUESTION: What sort of criteria is used to weigh efficiency  and productivity. Are there applications that you rule out  because they are just too resource intensive even if they  provide a significant productivity boost. And are there things  you include because of productivity even though they are more  resource hungry than lighter alternatives. Ideally you would
<somerville32> hehe
<maxamillion>  liketo get maximum  productivity while keeping it light weig
<somerville32> One at a time please :)
<maxamillion> 15:26 < bruenig> ht but how do you weigh those two things when they are in  conflict to make a decision on what to include?
<somerville32> tictacaddict: It isn't because people don't like Xfce, just that Xubuntu is still new
<somerville32> I've been making a personal effort to get people more Xubuntu aware.
<somerville32> To get Xubuntu the coverage, people need to show interest
<TLE> < jjtec1> QUESTION: are any language skills better than others in Xubuntu?
<somerville32> bruenig: Thats a major concern for us too.
<somerville32> bruening: For example, Xubuntu doesn't include open office by default
<somerville32> We instead include an alternative office suite
<maxamillion> jjtec1: langauge skills?
<TLE> somerville32: jjtec1 means programming
<somerville32> We're always looking to improve the balance and contribute upstream
<somerville32> jjtec1: Well, I know a lot of us like python
<TheSheep> jjtec1: xfce itself is writen in c++
<maxamillion> jjtec1: C and python are generally the most common ... xfce and alot of its applications are written in C/C++
<somerville32> I see TONS of questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<somerville32> <g>
* somerville32 pokes his helpers.
<TheSheep> < jjtec1> QUESTION:Can a 1st year c++ student be any help?
<somerville32> Ofcourse!
<maxamillion> < jjtec1> QUESTION:I am a student and used equipment is the normal for  me, will xfce continue to work on keeping wieght down to a  minimum?
<somerville32> It is one our primary selling points and focuses.
<maxamillion> < Bourlotieris> QUESTION: Will there be any Beryl effects in Xubuntu  Feisty as is planned for Ubuntu (GNOME) ?
<somerville32> Already answered :)
<Bourlotieris> :)
<somerville32>  Qustion: does Xubuntu have any official ties to Canonical?
<somerville32> Xubuntu is an official sister project such as Kubuntu and Edubuntu.
<apokryphos> by kudzubane
<somerville32> Sorry
<somerville32> :] 
<apokryphos> np :P
<somerville32> I personally feel that Xubuntu is very easy to get involved with
<apokryphos> [21:27:23]  <tictacaddict> QUESTION: The xfwm4 compositor doesn't seem to be available since I upgraded to edgy.  Was it intentionally disabled (and why?) or is that just a problem on my end?  If it's enabled and I'm just missing something... sorry/nevermind!
<somerville32> As I haven't personally upgraded to Edgy, I'll ask max or TheSheep to answer this one.
<somerville32> However, it is my understanding that you must enable it
<tictacaddict> I got some advice on enabling it in -chat.  I haven't restarted xfce yet because I'm using gaim but hopefully that is the solution.
<somerville32> Perfect! :)
<somerville32> If you need any help, feel free to ask for support in #xubuntu
<maxamillion> somerville32: TheSheep answered that one already
<apokryphos> [21:24:13]  <bruenig> QUESTION: What sort of criteria is used to weigh efficiency and productivity. Are there applications that you rule out because they are just too resource intensive even if they provide a significant productivity boost. And are there things you include because of productivity even though they are more resource hungry than lighter alternatives. Ideally you would like to get maximum productivity while keeping i
<apokryphos> [21:24:13]  <bruenig> ht but how do you weigh those two things when they are in conflict to make a decision on what to include?
<somerville32> bruenig: We discuss the pros and cons on the mailing list
<somerville32> We look at "How does this benefit the user?"
<somerville32> "How resource intensive is the application?"
<somerville32> "What are the alternatives?"
<somerville32> Does that answer your question? :)
<apokryphos> [21:46:54]  <fliegenderfrosch> QUESTION: Is there a list anywhere with features planned for feisty?
<somerville32> We're currently still working on drawing up most of the initial specifications.
<somerville32> However, Feel free to check out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications
<somerville32> And you can even contribute by sharing your ideas for improvements to Xubuntu Feisty Fawn on the wiki
<somerville32> Xubuntu is still young
<somerville32> Xubuntu is still developing
<somerville32> We're currently looking for dedicated individuals who'd like to help
<somerville32> And we're constantly trying to make sure that the process of getting involved is as easy as possible (and it is easy). There is so many leadership positions that need filling, so much that people can get involved with.
<TLE> < TLE> QUESTION: Newbie question here. Will installing a non GTK2 app slow the system down (on low-end machines) even when it is not run because  extra stuff have to be loaded at boottime or something like that?
<somerville32> TLE: Good question.
<somerville32> IT really depends on what you install
<somerville32> Some applications start at boot
<somerville32> And they WILL slow things down
<somerville32> However, other applications will only slow things down when running
<maxamillion> it will slow the machine down only when using that  application because the libraries required for it will be  used but once the application has terminated, the memory  used to support it and the loaded libraries will be  reclaimed by the system
<somerville32> There is the option of enabling gnome and kde services within the control panel
<somerville32> Some applications require these
<somerville32> Some won't run without them
<somerville32> But for sure they'll slow your system down
<somerville32> And also make the applications take longer to load at times if the nessary libs aren't already loaded.
<maxamillion> gnome libs are more forgiving then kde ones under xubuntu so when in need of an application, chose the gnome variation over kde whenever possible
* somerville32 nods.
<maxamillion> JKnife: join #ubuntu-classroom-chat also
<apokryphos> [21:52:06]  <devilsadvocate> Question : Why does xubuntu use gdm instead of xdm?
<maxamillion> < jjtec1> QUESTION: is GTK2.0 used for xfce?
<TheSheep> apokryphos: xdm doesn't really have all the required features, mainly the accessibility ones
<maxamillion> oops
<apokryphos> * devilsadvocate
<TheSheep> apps, that was to devilsadvocate :)
<somerville32> jjtec1: Yup. :)
<apokryphos> [21:55:02]  <JKnife> QUESTION: why the different names for eatch DE?
<somerville32> Welp, the different desktop environments use different names to help distinguish themselves. If all the DE shared the same name, it would cause confusion for sure.
<apokryphos> JKnife: to differentiate them.
<TheSheep> < jjtec1> QUESTION: doesn't KDE use the QT environment ?
<somerville32> It uses the QT lib, yup.
<apokryphos> TheSheep: KDE is based on the Q-toolkit, yeah.
<apokryphos> * jjtec1
<apokryphos> 8)
<TheSheep> < arualavi> QUESTION: you say that xdm don't have all of the required features, the same with wdm?
<maxamillion> < JKnife> How can I get involved in Xubuntu documentation?
<TheSheep> auralavi: I don't really know much about wdm. Gdm has been tweaked to remove the gnome dependencies, and after that is pretty light.
<somerville32> Currently we feel gdm is the best option because of the feature set plus because it is support by the Ubuntu team.
<somerville32> *supported
<maxamillion> bah! sorry, i keep doing that
<arualavi> ok thanks
<somerville32> However
<somerville32> IF you see a good reason for us to switch, feel free to bring it up on the mailing list.
<somerville32> JKnife: Good question.
<somerville32> Documentation is an import part of any distro
<somerville32> important
<somerville32> Unfortunatly, Xubuntu is sort of lacking in this department.
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<somerville32> However, we're always looking for individuals to help in our documentation efforts.
<maxamillion> hello MacSlow
<somerville32> I would recommend getting involved with the ubuntu docs team and focusing your efforts on documenting Xubuntu.
<somerville32> You'll also find contact information on the wiki and at http://xubuntu.org/devel
<apokryphos> ok, it's 10 o'clock now, but since there's no other session after feel free to carry on 8)
<TLE> < TLE> QUESTION: Could you tell us a little bit about the common desktop app's that is part of Xubuntu. What they can and how good they are  compared to their GNOME/KDE counterparts
<MacSlow> hi maxamillion
<somerville32> TLE: Good question.
<somerville32> We constantly trying to improve the set of applications we install by default
<somerville32> We look at performance, feature set, alternatives, etc.
<TheSheep> Iw ill try
<somerville32> It is always improving.
<somerville32> Personally... I enjoyed the set of applications installed by default because I know they'll be lightweight enough that I don't end up pulling my hair out.
<JKnife> Will Xubuntu ever get shipit support?
<TheSheep> TLE: Thunar is the file manager -- it's very fast compared to Nautilus, but has most of the important features
<somerville32> Good example, TheSheep
<somerville32> Personally, I prefer Thunar to Nautilus.
<Burgwork> JKnife: that depends on Canonical
<TheSheep> TLE: Abiword is the text processor -- it's a little simplier than OO Writer, but also supports .doc and .rtf files
<TLE> QUESTION UPDATE: How about IM, and internet browser, and multimedia apps ?
<somerville32> JKnife: We're working to get shipit support.
<TheSheep> TLE: mousepad is the plain text editor -- compared to gedit2 it's very simple -- no syntax highlighting, etc. -- just text editing
<JKnife> IM uses gaim, Web browser is firefox as the same with ubuntu, and i can not remeber what multimedia apps it comes with
<TheSheep> TLE: we use firefox for internet browsing and gaim for im, just like ubuntu
<TheSheep> TLE: there are no alternatives with similar feature set, or at least we coudn't find any
<TLE> Nice.! my two favorite apps ;)
<somerville32> Btw, Installing Xubuntu from Ubuntu is very easy
<TheSheep> TLE: we use Thunaderbird instead of Evolution though
<somerville32> apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
<somerville32> :)
<tictacaddict> xubuntu comes with gxine for multimedia, correct?
<maxamillion> or aptitude install xubuntu-desktop for those who prefer aptitude
<somerville32> In Edgy, yes.
<TheSheep> < jjtec1> QUESTION:Thanks you listed the #irc, did I just miss the mailing list?
<maxamillion> tictacaddict: correct
<tictacaddict> xfmedia in daper
<tictacaddict> dapper
<no1z> And the player is xfmedia in Dapper
<stani> QUESTION: How about samba/network support?
<somerville32> Feel free to see http://xubuntu.org/devel for more information about getting involved with Xubuntu!
<somerville32> Stani: Thats something we hope to improve for Feisty. :)
<TheSheep> < tictacaddict> QUESTION: Why the switch from xfmedia to gxine anyway?  They are a little different but xfmedia seemed  to work okay.
<stani> Great, it is the only thing for still needing nautilus from time to time.
<maxamillion> stani: that is actually our biggest area of fallback at the moment, there are ways to create samba shares and such, but to browse them you must follow tutorials found in the forums because it is not yet a feature of Thunar
<JKnife> 07:08 <tictacaddict> QUESTION: Why the switch from xfmedia to gxine anyway?  They are a little different but xfmedia seemed to work okay
<somerville32> tictacaddict: xfmedia isn't as mature as gxine and it uses a better backend.
<maxamillion> stani: and if you really feel the need you can install xffm4 which is the old xfce file manager before thunar and that has samba browse support
<somerville32> :)
<somerville32> Welp, I think my wrists are getting sore.
<somerville32> I'd like to thank everyone for coming out.
<somerville32> Lots of good questions
<somerville32> I'd love to see you guys all get involved! :D
<DenisTheMenace> Thanks very much guys and good night
<somerville32> Woot! :D
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: LoCo Teams (Thu 30th Nov, 15.00 UTC)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<stani> Thanks a lot! One of the reasons I love xubuntu is the iconbox applet which gnome even doesn't have.
<somerville32> Stani: That IS a pretty cool feature! :D
<JKnife> iconbox? i do not remeber that one o.O
<TheSheep> JKnife: it's there since 4.2
<JKnife> o.O NO WAI!
<somerville32> :)
* somerville32 waves.
<TheSheep> goodbye!
<somerville32> See you all on xubuntu-devel !! :)
<Bourlotieris> Thank you
<stani> Thanks
* TLE claps at somerville32
* somerville32 claps.
<somerville32> :)
<gustavo> quit
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-11-30
<DzimiHumuNukuNuk> hik
<Keyseir> I've got a rather complicated RAM issue. I have two 256 chips and a 512, sdram. I originally was getting segfaults on my ubuntu installation, and then I even got it on a livecd. I couldn't even install on the hd, and I was able to install dapper when I removed the 512. However, I never got any errors running memtest86 for a total of 6-7 hours. 'Memtester' finds errors when the 512 chip is in the picture SOMETIMES, but sometime
<Keyseir> s I change the test memory value by maybe 5m and it all changes. Anyone who knows a lot about hardware/ram have an idea?
<andrew> Keyseir: #ubuntu
<Keyseir> Did someone respond to me here?
<Keyseir> I had... issues
<andrew> Keyseir: ask in #ubuntu
<andrew> this room is for sessions held during the day
<Keyseir> Nobody responded in #ubuntu, so I figured I'd go for the room used for more in depth conversations.
<LjL> Keyseir: tried posting in the forums?
<Keyseir> LjL, No. I should.
<pawjan> help
<pawjan> ?
<nalioth> pawjan: have you asked in #ubuntu ?
<Zbyshek> :))
<pawjan> I'm just checking if there is anybody not sleeping yet ;)
<lara22> hi
<andrew> hi
<effie_jayx> hi
* vrun is away: Gone away for now.
<Seveas> !question
<ubotu> Please ask your questions here in #ubuntu-classroom-chat rather than #ubuntu-classroom (prefix them with "QUESTION: ")
<Seveas> !questions
<sergio1337> sad
<b4ck3r> Como te decia
<b4ck3r> La programacion esta https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<sergio1337> si
<sergio1337> english only, please
<b4ck3r> jajajajja
<b4ck3r> Ok
<b4ck3r> lol
<b4ck3r> Em portugues pode ??
<tonyyarusso> !pt
<ubotu> Por favor use #ubuntu-br  ou #ubuntu-pt  para ajuda em portugus. Obrigada.
<b4ck3r> Ok
<b4ck3r> Obrigado
* tonyyarusso wishes he could say "You're welcome" in Portugese.
<b4ck3r> Ok, tx
<b4ck3r> thx
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<tonyyarusso> @dump
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by tonyyarusso
<noxs> hi all
<snail> hi noxs: discussoin in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ailean> why are there two chans for portugese? there isn't a separate chan for US english to UK english . . .
<apokryphos> ailean: because the difference is more than just UK and American English, for one. But secondly, we do have a UK locoteam channel -- #ubuntu-uk
<ailean> oh right ;)
<ailean> well i don't believe in the uk, so i'll stay here :P
<apokryphos> it does exist, I can guarantee it ;-)
<ailean> lol
<ailean> I'll just wish you a happy St Andrew's Day :)
* stefg suggests http://www.stephaniemiller.com/declarationofrevocation.htm to ailean
<ailean> very good stefg :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-s]  by apokryphos
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
<tonyyarusso> apokryphos: Why on earth was it ever +s?
<apokryphos> no idea; might've been the Freenode reset from a few days ago
<tonyyarusso> Ah, sounds plausible.
<WB|Diego> HI
<effie_jayx> hi all :D
<jono> hi all
<jono> right before we start, I have a quick announcement
<apokryphos> hi jono 8)
<fyrestrtr> oh its started?
<jono> tomorrow is the Ubuntu Freshers Day where we invite everyone to come to #ubuntu-freshers
<popey> moo
<jono> the aim of the day tomorrow is that anyone can ask questions they have about Ubuntu
<fabbione> jono: do you need irc logs for that?
<jono> so, feel free to get into #ubuntu-freshers all day tomorrow
<jono> fabbione, I don't think so - its a general channel
<effie_jayx> starting at?
<fabbione> jono: ok thanks.
<jono> it is all day for every time zone
<effie_jayx> :D yipieeeeeee
<jono> so, without further ado, let me introduce Melissa Draper - elkbuntu - who is going to talk about LoCo teams
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
<jono> get those questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat like normal
<elkbuntu> :)
<jono> enjoy ther session :)
<elkbuntu> Hello everyone! Welcome to the LoCo Teams introduction session.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 9pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: LoCo Teams
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by apokryphos
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
<elkbuntu> finished spamming, dear?
<apokryphos> yup; take it away :)
<elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, and I am the LoCo Team Contact for the Ubuntu Australian LoCo Team. If you are wondering what that title involves, fear not, for we will be discussing it over the course of this session. I have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MelissaDraper that introduces me in more detail.
<elkbuntu> Over the course of this session, we will be discussing a number of aspects of LoCo Teams. This includes, but is not limited to:
<elkbuntu> * What are LoCo Teams?
<elkbuntu> * Who leads the LoCo?
<elkbuntu> * How I can find my LoCo Team?
<elkbuntu> * But, I can't see a LoCo Team for me!
<elkbuntu> * How do I start a LoCo?
<elkbuntu> * Approved vs New
<elkbuntu> * How can I get involved?
<elkbuntu> Now, lets start at the beginning. What are LoCo Teams?
<elkbuntu> A LoCo (short for Local Community) Team is a group of (in our case) Ubuntu users within a Localised Community.
<elkbuntu> The teams are run by the people, for the people. They are *not* run by Canonical, however Canonical is highly supportive of them and will provide assistance. We will cover the assistance offered later.
<nanda> j
<elkbuntu> A LoCo can involve a lot of things such as local promotion, support in the local language, general support to local users and much more.
<elkbuntu> LoCo Teams can be based around location, such as in my case, Australia.
<elkbuntu> Because people in Australia speak English, there is not a strong need for language-based activities. Our primary focus is advocacy within Australia, but we do a small amount of support.
<elkbuntu> Language based teams include for instance, the Spanish Team, which is based primarily around the Spanish language and hence includes most, if not all, the Spanish-speaking countries.
<elkbuntu> Because Spanish is a very widely spoken language, the team's efforts would have a greater focus on providing support in Spanish and translating Ubuntu. There are still, of course, advocacy efforts within the team.
<elkbuntu> One aspect of LoCo Teams that we find is also important, is that they enable and encourage people to interact with other Ubuntu users that are actually near them, as opposed to the other side of the world.
<elkbuntu> A single person with ideas is nothing compared to a dozen equally imaginative people :)
<elkbuntu> Ok, there are some questions in the chat, so i'll cover those now. The saturday session will be the same as todays.
<elkbuntu> Popey, yes, we are aware of this. It is one area that we are hoping to change. it has improved in the past few months, and we hope to improve it further.
<jrib> elkbuntu: it may help to state the question before answering so everyone benefits
<Phoenix7477> yes please
<nanda> yes
<elkbuntu> right.. sorry
<fyrestrtr> we are meant to ask questions in -chat and then look here for the answers, or can we ask in here directly?
<elkbuntu> <popey> QUESTION: Each LoCo seems to be doing their own thing - which isn't a bad thing - but it could be useful for us to talk to eachother more. How can we best learn from eachother so we have a consistent approach across all LoCo teams?
<Phoenix7477> thank you :)
<elkbuntu> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: My loCo team is not very active ( a web page, unaswered posts a week long and that's it) how can I help if there are no contacts in the wiki or the webpage
<elkbuntu> <effie_jayx> and cana university have a loCo?
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, i'll discuss this a bit later in the session, and i'll answer questions regarding this after.
<effie_jayx> thnx
<effie_jayx> I'll stay put
<elkbuntu> Now, one question we get asked a lot by new teams is "Who leads the LoCo?".
<elkbuntu> Generally, this is done by the LoCo Team Contact.
<elkbuntu> The contact may be the founder, who has self-appointed his or herself, or, he or she may have been democratically elected.
<elkbuntu> There's no 'right' way to do it, and some teams even have multiple contacts.
<elkbuntu> What works for *your team* is best, and it may take a few tries to figure out what this is.
<elkbuntu> The responsibilities of the Team Contact vary with the focus of the team, but a general guideline is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamContact
<elkbuntu> In my role as the LoCo Team Contact for Ubuntu-Au, my responsibilities generally include maintaining regular meetings, delegating tasks, channel upkeep and moderation and so forth.
<elkbuntu> LoCo Contacts should be subscribed to the loco-contacts mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts) and hang out in #ubuntu-locoteams. This is something that will help with Popey's question above.
<elkbuntu> The team contact is also the public face of the LoCo. He/She acts as the main communication bridge between the team and the community at large. Given this, a grasp on the English language is almost necessary.
<elkbuntu> It is possible that the contact may be approached by media, or get direct support requests, as their contact details are, or at least should be, easily obtainable.
<elkbuntu> Some people in here have probably already located their LoCo Team. Some others may want to know "How I can find my LoCo Team?"
<elkbuntu> A good way to find your LoCo Team, is to visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and see if there is a team in your area.
<elkbuntu> If there are several teams that apply to you, the team at country or state level is probably the team you should join first, although there's nothing stopping you being in multiple LoCos.
<elkbuntu> <popey> QUESTION: Should *only* the team contact join loco-contacts list or can anyone?
<elkbuntu> of course not. everyone is welcome :)
<popey> \o/
<elkbuntu> we actually have alot of people on the list and in the channel who are not their team's contact
<elkbuntu> Now, if any of you are in the situation where you are looking at the teams list and thinking "But, I can't see a LoCo team for me!", then there's a good chance one may not exist.
<elkbuntu> There is a possibility that your team just has not added themselves to the list, so check the channels list here on freenode, and/or do a google for the team name.
<elkbuntu> For example, the Australian team is "Ubuntu-au". "au" is the ISO code for Australia.
<elkbuntu> If after searching, you cannot see a team then there probably is not one.
<elkbuntu> If you are really interested in LoCo work, then it is time to find some other people and start one :)
<lorenzo> oppo
<elkbuntu> For those who are asking questions in the -chat channel. I will get to hopefully all of you. Some questions will be answered as I go through, i'll try answer the rest at the end :)
<leonel> uevo
<elkbuntu> you havent been ignored :)
<elkbuntu> Anyhow, I know a few people are here wanting to know "How do I start a LoCo?". Well luckily, it's not rocket science.
* fyrestrtr puts away his lab coat
<elkbuntu> The main things you need are people and communication. It is recommended that you start by setting up a mailing list and an IRC channel.
<elkbuntu> We can help with this in various ways. Well, we cannot help you gather the people, but the other things we can help with.
<elkbuntu> For a mailing list, we prefer if the list is created through Ubuntu's mailman system. For this, email mailman@lists.ubuntu.com
<elkbuntu> To register your LoCo Channel, see '/msg chanserv help register' for instructions. The channel should be #ubuntu-cc where 'cc' is your country ISO code.
<elkbuntu> IRC channels are best done here on Freenode. Almost all Ubuntu channels are here, and it's useful to have all the channels together.
<elkbuntu> Not only that, Ubuntu has built up a very good relationship with the Freenode staff, so we're able to pull strings. It's quite convenient.
<elkbuntu> Another important point about using the Ubuntu mailman and Freenode, is that if for some unfortunate reason, the team leader was to disappear into thin air (and yes, this happens), it is much easier to negotiate the reassigning of privileges.
<elkbuntu> Once you have the basic structure set up, you're a LoCo team.
<elkbuntu> Whilst it is not entirely mandatory, it's strongly suggested you sign the team up at Launchpad.net. This lets us know the team exists, for a start, but it also makes it easy to see who is in the team for purposes of verifing things if something goes wrong.
<elkbuntu> Launchpad also incorporates the Rosetta translation tools, which is what Ubuntu uses for translations.
<elkbuntu> With Launchpad, there are also other ways to contribute to Ubuntu as a whole (outside the realm of LoCo Teams), as has been pointed out over the past few days. Communication and contribution with the rest of the Ubuntu community is essential for a team's success.
<elkbuntu> <enoch2702> QUESTION: Is there any formal charter laid out by a LoCo?
<elkbuntu> As such? no. Every team is welcome to do so if they wish to, however. For some teams, it might help.
<elkbuntu> LoCos are pretty freeform in how they're organised and run. Different things work in different places around the world.
<elkbuntu> enoch2702, does that answer the question for you?
<enoch2702> yes
<elkbuntu> :)
<elkbuntu> Now, you may or may not have heard reference to 'approved' and 'new' LoCo Teams. This has caused confusion in the past, so I'll cover it now.
<elkbuntu> An approved team is a team that is up and running, has each of the required resources in operation and the team is working well. The team has been acknowledged as haivng these traits
<elkbuntu> When you become an approved team, it will make you eligible for certain benefits such as marketing materials, and other possibilities.
<elkbuntu> An approved team is also considered officially by the Ubuntu project, and the process involves going before the Community Council.
<elkbuntu> New teams are equally important to us, and we do support them by providing services such as hosting, a domain, mailing lists etc to help them become established.
<elkbuntu> Once a new team has been set up with the basic mail/irc/launchpad structure, and have been around for a while, there should be no problem getting approved.
<elkbuntu> If the team chooses to remain unapproved, we're ok with that too, but there are benefits, as mentioned above, for being approved.
<elkbuntu> If you have questions about, or your team requires any of the LoCo services mentioned today, please join #ubuntu-locoteams and ask away, or sign up to the mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts) if you prefer that way of asking.
<elkbuntu> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: How does one know if the team I join is approved?
<elkbuntu> there is a list at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamsList and at the top is an 'approved' list
<effie_jayx> thnx
<elkbuntu> If you were not before, you may now (hopefully) be wondering "How can I get involved?".
<elkbuntu> For most teams, just being on the mailing list, in the IRC channel or on the launchpad.net team is sufficient to join the team, and once you have done this, you can contribute in a variety of ways.
<elkbuntu> As mentioned above, LoCo Teams involve a variety of project areas. These can include local support, translation, and local promotion, or even simply documenting the team and it's activites.
<elkbuntu> If you unsure of how best to get involved with your LoCo, a good idea is to ask a prominent member within the team. They often know what areas need more man (or woman) power.
<elkbuntu> Alternatively, if you are for instance, interested in seeing more promotional material that is relevant to your country, then you could simply create the material you feel is missing.
<elkbuntu> When you've done whatever you felt necessary, tell people in the LoCo about it. Showing initiative is also a good way to get respect :)
<elkbuntu> On a larger level, groups of LoCo members can get together to stage install-fests, or run booths at computer fairs.
<elkbuntu> There are alot of great LoCos around, and we're fortunate to have had some of them collaborate to provide us with our (still fledgling) knowledgebase.
<elkbuntu> If you want to find out more about joining, establishing or running LoCos, you can see the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase wiki page.
<elkbuntu> Or, as that was the end of my pre-written stuff. you can ask questions :)
* popey waves his questions in -chat
<elkbuntu> i'll work through the question backlog from -chat now
<elkbuntu> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: My loCo team is not very active ( a web page, unaswered posts a week long and that's it) how can I help if there are no contacts in the wiki or the webpage
<elkbuntu> <effie_jayx> and cana university have a loCo?
<effie_jayx> yeah :)
<elkbuntu> ok. im going to tie the answer to those two questiosn together
<elkbuntu> if your country loco is struggling for activity, a smaller part of the country is going to struggle more
<elkbuntu> you're best off pushing the team from your uni
<elkbuntu> many country teams tend to have an activity hotspot. maybe your uni is that hotspot for your country
<elkbuntu> does that make sense, effie_jayx?
<effie_jayx> cool.. but I don't mean to disregard their work? after all they did put up a website
<effie_jayx> and have gone through some stages in getting their stuff approved
<effie_jayx> they might get offended ... I just want to open the space in my university for them to come an talk
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, if they've come to a standstill, then chances are they'll appreciate the assistance
<effie_jayx> me just being a liason between them and my uni
<elkbuntu> have you talked to the contact about this?
<effie_jayx> but I cannot find a contact email
<effie_jayx> i's not on the wiki nor the website
<elkbuntu> are you able to contact anyone in the team?
<effie_jayx> the irc channel is not on freenode
<effie_jayx> I have made a post in their forum
<effie_jayx> and I blog in their website
<elkbuntu> is the irc channel active?
<enoch2702> I hope so
<effie_jayx> yes..  but not the key people conect
<effie_jayx> only people wanting to find out like me
<elkbuntu> then the key people are obstructing progress
<elkbuntu> we can talk more specifically on this later, i'll continue through the questions now.
<effie_jayx> can we email ?
<elkbuntu> join #ubuntu-locoteams :)
<effie_jayx> great :)
<elkbuntu> <popey> QUESTION: It has been suggested in our [UK]  loco team that when providing support (for example in the launchpad ticket system) that we might want to mention/brand/advertise ourselves as part of the loco team, rather than just as individuals. What do you think about that?
<elkbuntu> I see no problem with doing this. I assume you're referring to in the signing of the response, ie "Popey, Ubuntu-cc Team" ?
<popey> yeah
<popey> but suggesting everyone does it
<elkbuntu> you cannot force everyone to do something ;)
<popey> true enough
<elkbuntu> simply encourage it strongly
<popey> sorry, was a dumb questino :)
<elkbuntu> no such thing
<popey> :)
<popey> too kind
<elkbuntu> <atoponce> QUESTION: Our LoCo team (Utah) has a forum on Ubuntuforums. Is it possible to have our mailing list go to our forum, and our forum posts to the mailinglist?
<elkbuntu> atoponce, it is possible. talk to the forum mods about it. i'm assuming they would know the best way to do this.
<atoponce> ok. cool. thx
<elkbuntu> <hubuntu> QUESTION: I heard about getting a hostname redirection for the respective pages for the LoCo. what about that? I mean www.ubuntu.no is cool, but what about oslo.no.ubuntulinux.org that is like more compelling, more logical in a worldwide perspective. Have you some final drafts/specs on that after Mountain View?
<elkbuntu> he is gone now, but i'll answer for the sake of others.
<elkbuntu> for information regarding domains and so forth, it's best to come into #ubuntu-locoteams and ask questions there. there's people there with a clue on that stuff.
<elkbuntu> I dont believe we had any specific specs on the topic of domains, but we're hopefully going to streamline things alot :)
<elkbuntu> <fyrestrtr> QUESTION: Can you elaborate on what kind of translation support, or literature does Ubuntu provide for people (like myself) that are thinking of starting a LoCo?
<elkbuntu> Hmm...
<elkbuntu> I'm not all that knowledgable regarding languages. There's a translation team around, and there's rosetta. that's about all i know ;)
<elkbuntu> given that, <minimec> QUESTION: Does the language/translation support by the LOCO groups include translation of main/restricted packages and software, or only uni-/multiverse software?
<elkbuntu> There was a rosetta session yesterday. i do not know what was coverd in it, but looking at the logs would be useful maybe?
<elkbuntu> <popey> QUESTION: Would it make sense for LoCo contacts to be invited to Canonical / Ubuntu meetings such as UDS or is that just logistically impractical? The reason I ask is that I feel the LoCos could get a tremendous amount of motivation from "rubbing shoulders" with devs.
<elkbuntu> Probably wishful thinking. Your LoCo area probably has a developer or two in it, encouraging their participation in the LoCo would probably have a good effect.
<popey> (and with other locos)
<elkbuntu> I'd personally love to be able to manage something like this, but im not sure if it's feasable.
<elkbuntu> <enoch2702> QUESTION:  How closely do LoCos work with LUGs?
<elkbuntu> this is a good question.
<elkbuntu> there are some LUGs that are highly ubuntu-oriented, whereas there's others that are predominantly gentoo or fedora or suse oriented.
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: Hello elkbuntu, I'm Miguel Ruiz, Chilean Ubuntu LoCo Member. Can you explain how your LoCo works? How many sub-teams do you coordinate?
<elkbuntu> the Australian team is one single team
<elkbuntu> however, i know there are LoCos with chapters, such as iirc, the Canadian Team.
<elkbuntu> that's the geographical side of things
<elkbuntu> in terms of sub-teams for different functions, the australian team has had no need for this either. it's worth asking a language oriented team about this though.
<elkbuntu> I think we're at the end of questions now. and it's nearly time for the next session :)
<mruiz> elkbuntu, I asked you because we usually work in different ways: Forum, Wiki, Website, Translation into Spanish; then we can separate our work in sub-teams
<mruiz> thanks elkbuntu
<popey> thanks elkbuntu ! good session
<Phoenix7477> yeah, thanks :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
<LjL> Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 10pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: The Ubuntu Bug Squad (starting shortly)
<elkbuntu> Thank you all for listening to me babble :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<popey> :)
<mruiz> :)
* elkbuntu checks who's up next
<popey> you think that's babbling - you should join #ubuntu-uk ;)
<elkbuntu> Next up is Simon Law to recruit you all to the bug squad :)
<apokryphos> coleslaw
<jono> thanks elkbuntu !
<atoponce> elkbuntu: thx. good session!
<sfllaw> elkbuntu: Thanks for the introduction.  Will you set the /topic or shall I?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
<LjL> Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 10pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: The Ubuntu Bug Squad
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<Jucato> yay bugs!
<elkbuntu> it seems LjL will :)
<sfllaw> Quick on the ball!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o sfllaw]  by ChanServ
<LjL> had it in the clipboard since 10 minutes ;)
<sfllaw> Melissa, Lorenzo, you're wonderful.
<sfllaw> Good morning.
<sfllaw> Welcome to my talk about the Ubuntu BugSquad.
<sfllaw> For the purposes of clarity, please limit discussions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  If you want to ask a question, just write "sfllaw: I have a question about..." in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll answer it at the approriate juncture.
<sfllaw> Thanks!
<sfllaw> -------------------------------------------------------
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 10pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: The Ubuntu Bug Squad
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<sfllaw> Ubuntu is one of the most popular GNU/Linux distributions out there.  And it also has one of the smallest development teams for its size.
<sfllaw> The secret to this is huge community involvement.  We have hundreds of people who help with packaging, translations, technical writing, and bug management.
<sfllaw> And boy do we have a lot of bugs.  About 300 to 400 new bug reports get filed every day from users, from stable releases like Dapper to bleeding edge stuff from Feisty.
<sfllaw> The first people to look at these reports are the BugSquad.  We do a very important task, drinking from this firehose.  And that's to make sure that the reports that remain in the bug tracking system are useful.
<sfllaw> You can find our bug tracking system at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
<sfllaw> Right now, it holds over 20000 open bug reports, spread across the entire distribution.  That includes main, restricted, universe, and multiverse.
<sfllaw> That's a lot of bugs.  The source of these reports can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/yf4hq9
<sfllaw> These are untriaged reports: ones which have never had a human eye look at them.  It's likely that they are missing information, duplicate another report, are filed against the wrong package, etc.  Or, if you're lucky, they're perfect.
<sfllaw> :)
<sfllaw> To triage a bug report, you need to do a few things.
<sfllaw> First you have to determine if it's actually a bug.  The easiest ones have crash reports in them.  Let's go find one.
<sfllaw> To start, we go to http://launchpad.net  Click on "The Ubuntu distribution"
<sfllaw> In the search box, let's look for a popular package.  Bash is a good one to try, so let's ask for that.
<sfllaw> Click on 'Source Package "bash" in Ubuntu' to be taken to its package page.
<sfllaw> This shows you Bash within the context of the Ubuntu distribution.  Bash also has another page, a product page, which we won't look at right now.
<sfllaw> In the left sidebar, you should see a "Bugs" link.  Click on that and you'll be taken to the bug tracker.  This will list all the bugs inside bash right now.
<sfllaw> There are quite a few untriaged bugs, but they are intermixed with triaged ones.  Let's narrow down our search to only show untriaged ones.  Start by clicking the "Advanced search" link.
<sfllaw> You want to make sure that:
<sfllaw>   Status = Unconfirmed only
<sfllaw>   Importance = Undecided only
<sfllaw>   Assignee = Nobody
<LinuxBA> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs - See also !OpenWeek
<sfllaw> Click the "Search" button.
<sfllaw> You should end up at http://tinyurl.com/yawhpj which gives you a nice list of bugs to look at.
<sfllaw> My example bug went away.
<sfllaw> But we'll fix that.
<sfllaw> Dum de dum dum.
<sfllaw> Ta da!
<sfllaw> Reload guys.
<sfllaw> Bug 57413 looks like a promising crash.  Click on its description and it will open up.  You can also get to this bug by going to http://launchpad.net/bugs/57413
<sfllaw> You see that the bug reporter has included his crash dump, which was caught by apport, our automated crash profiler.  But Longer hasn't really given us enough information to solve the problem.
<sfllaw> Here's the minimum information for a complete bug report:
<sfllaw>   1. Version of the software.  Is it in Dapper, Edgy, Feisty?  What about a specific version number?
<sfllaw>   2. Steps to reproduce the bug.
<sfllaw>   3. What was expected to happen.
<sfllaw>   4. What actually happened.
<sfllaw> Since this bug is incomplete, we'll want to ask for more information.  You do that by taking responsibility for the bug and having a conversation with the reporter.
<sfllaw> Implicitly, we know the answers to 3 and 4, because Bash crashed unexpectedly.  And the crash report has the version of bash buried inside (3.1-5ubuntu1).
<sfllaw> Still, we need to ask for reproduction steps.
<sfllaw> If you're logged in, you can click on the "bash (Ubuntu)" task table up near the top.  This allows you to modify the state of the bug.
<sfllaw> There are some fields there:
<sfllaw>   Package: this is the source package of the bug.  Bash is correct for this one.
<sfllaw>   Status: change this to Needs Info.  This means other people won't try to triage this bug.
<sfllaw>   Assigned to: Me.  You're claiming responsibility for having a conversation with the reporter.
<sfllaw>   Comment on this change: Here we should ask the reporter for more information.
<sfllaw>   E-mail me about changes to this bug report: Yes.  This will subscribe you to any new comments about this report.
<sfllaw> In the comment, we would ask for the version of Bash:
<sfllaw>   "Hi Longer.  Could you please describe the precise steps you performed to crash bash?  Thanks."
<sfllaw> Click "Save Changes" and you're done.
<sfllaw> When you get an e-mail from Longer responding to your question with the appropriate steps, the bug can be considered complete.  You've got information on how to reproduce it and there's even a handy log file for a developer to look at.
<sfllaw> We can now pass this on to the development team to fix.
<sfllaw> Click "bash (Ubuntu)" again and change:
<sfllaw>   Status = Confirmed
<sfllaw>   Assigned to = Nobody
<sfllaw> Click "Save Changes".
<sfllaw> That's it, you're done triaging this bug.
<sfllaw> daxelrod asks: Apport doesn't report the ubuntu release version?
<sfllaw> It does, actually.
<sfllaw> The DistroRelease field in an apport report should tell you what it is.
<sfllaw> For instance, in #57413, it tells you that this bug was in Ubuntu 6.10.
<sfllaw> Also, you can see the version of bash: "Package: bash 3.1-5ubuntu1"
<sfllaw> And the versions of all of its Dependencies.
<sfllaw> LjL asks: About "Version of the software" - should a reporter just state it (and the Ubuntu version) in the plaintext bug report, or should care be taken to actually use the Launchpad-native features for specifying versions (the usage of which, honestly, is not very clear to me)?
<sfllaw> The answer to this is that there are no Launchpad-native features for providing the version number.
<sfllaw> Often, it is good enough to know which Distribution it is.
<sfllaw> One of the reasons you want to know the version is so that you don't go hunting for a bug that doesn't exist in the most recent source package.
<sfllaw> Another reason is because if you notice a flood of bugs being filed against one package for a stable version, you know there's probably a crisis and you should tell someone.
<sfllaw> Jucato asks: In reporting a bug, how do we know which package in Launchpad's list a certain program belongs to?
<sfllaw> That requires a bit of good judgement.
<sfllaw> The https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage wiki page can help with some strategies to find it.
<sfllaw> arualavi asks: what's the meaning of the word "triaging" pease?
<sfllaw> triaging is the process of sorting and allocating aid on the basis of need.
<sfllaw> It's been traditionally applied to medical treatment or food handouts.
<sfllaw> But here it applies to new bugs that come in.
<arualavi> sfllaw: thank you ;-)
<sfllaw> Phoenix7477 asks: How should a triage handle a problem where a bug is listed against an older version of, say bash? Check to see if its in the new one? If it is not reproducible in the new version, should the bug be cleared?
<sfllaw> In an older version of bash, you can check to see if it's in the new one.  If it is, mention that this is the case in the description.
<sfllaw> If it's not in the new one, it should still be left open.
<sfllaw> If it's important enough, someone will issue a fix in the foo-updates archive.
<sfllaw> Or someone will backport the new one.
<sfllaw> Jucato asks: follow-up: isn't there a way to make reporting bugs a bit easier, for example in choosing which package the bug belongs to? I've compared Malone to bugs.kde.org, and while KDE's process is a bit longer (6 pages), it's also a bit less prone to error.
<sfllaw> Yes.  We've recognized that Bugzilla has a nicer process for guiding people through filing bugs.
<sfllaw> I think it's a bit complicated, when much of this stuff can be automated.
<sfllaw> That's why https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/bug-reporting-tool exists, which we are implementing for Feisty.
<Jucato> nice
<sfllaw> Shall we move on?
<sfllaw> Let's say you encounter a bug report that isn't a bug at all.
<sfllaw> Perhaps it is a user asking for help on installing software.  Like a request to be taught how to use synaptic.
<sfllaw> Or perhaps it is a user asking for a new feature to be implemented.
<sfllaw> You can distinguish between features and bugs this way:
<sfllaw> A feature request is a wish for new functionality that the program isn't expected to do.
<sfllaw> Whereas a bug is where the program fails in some way.  It obviously should be doing something more correct.
<sfllaw> You can respond to these by:
<sfllaw> - Setting Status = Rejected
<sfllaw> - Writing them a nice note in the comment explaining why it was not a valid bug.
<sfllaw> You can get templates of these nice notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<sfllaw> But you are welcome to put in your own personal touches.  Just remember to be friendly and polite, not terse.
<sfllaw> Being concise can be mistaken for being rude.
<sfllaw> LjL asks: Should anyone feel free to change a bug's status from "Unconfirmed" or "Needs info" to "Confirmed" (and similar), if they're convinced that the status of the bug has changed, or is it better etiquette to let the assignee (if any) make this sort of changes?
<sfllaw> You should feel free to change something to Needs Info, if you're going to claim responsibility.
<sfllaw> You can also change it to Confirmed if all the information is inside the bug.
<sfllaw> Rejected is also fine, if it's not a bug.
<sfllaw> As is Fix Released, if the _reporter_ says the bug has been fixed by a newer version.
<sfllaw> If there's an assignee, you shouldn't go mucking about the Status too much.
<sfllaw> Some of the other statuses have different meanings for different teams.
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  After your last talk I have witnessed the amount of bugs,  how important is it to get the initial triage out of the way?
<sfllaw> It's fairly important that we try to clear out the queue of untriaged bugs.
<sfllaw> If they're untriaged, nobody has looked at them.
<sfllaw> And if nobody has looked at them, nobody will fix them.
<sfllaw> :(
<sfllaw> daxelrod asks: While the FindRightPackage wiki page helps, is there any list that maps  project names to descriptions? (For example: LiveCD Installer <-> Ubiquity)
<sfllaw> Not to my knowledge.
<sfllaw> If you would like to help, you can add a section that puts this stuff in.
<sfllaw> Like the fact that the LiveCD is casper.
<sfllaw> It is a Wiki.  :)
<sfllaw> rmjb asks: is it bad form to assign yourself to a bug for which you are not the package maintainer?
<sfllaw> It's perfectly find to assign yourself to a bug no matter who maintains it.
<sfllaw> Assignment has a specific meaning.  It means "I will take responsibility for shepherding this bug."
<sfllaw> That's why, when triaging, you assign yourself to the bug while you're waiting for an answer.
<sfllaw> Then you can search for a list of bugs you're assigned to and follow up on them.
<sfllaw> When you are done triaging, you assign to Nobody.
<sfllaw> Someone else will take responsibility after that.
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  I noticed too that their is a section for importance who sets this?
<sfllaw> People on the Ubuntu QA team, the Masters of the Universe, and Core Developers can set this.
<sfllaw> Importance has very specific meanings, so you have to go through simple training to join.
<sfllaw> It's pretty easy, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance, but beyond the scope of this talk.
<sfllaw> Jucato asks: what's the difference between Fix Committed and Fix Released?
<sfllaw> Generally, Fix Released means that the fix has been properly sent out to the general public.  In Ubuntu, we use it to mean that it's been sent to a default archive.  Like feisty or edgy-updates.
<sfllaw> Fix Committed means that a fix is available somewhere.  In Ubuntu, this means someone has a package in their own personal archive, or they uploaded it to edgy-proposed.
<sfllaw> Yawner asks: After looking at a few comments on bugs, its fairly obvious that some are more important than others, as someone not on the QA Team, how do I know which bug is important and which is not? If I feel that its important what exactly do I do about it?
<sfllaw> Learn about Importances and then ask dholbach or me to add you to the Ubuntu QA team.
<sfllaw> We'll ask you a few simple questions and then you'll have access.
<Yawner> aha ok, I have read the article, but only started triaging yesterday
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  if you get in over your head with a bug where can you turn?
<sfllaw> Other members of the Bug Squad can help you.  You can find someone online all the time.
<sfllaw> siretart asks: in what cases do you think it makes sense to assign a bug to a team? What semantic does this have?
<sfllaw> Each team typically has its own policy on what it means to assign something to it.
<davmor2> I kinda quested that would be the case but it might be something putting people off :)
<sfllaw> You probably shouldn't assign something to a team unless you're following that policy.
<sfllaw> There is documentation on the Ubuntu Wiki that will tell you when it's proper to assign or subscribe a particular team to a bug.
<sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  if you find a bug that say allows anyone to change network setting (without asking for admin password) how can you get it prioritised?
<sfllaw> Find someone who has the power to change this online.  There are a lot of us, actually.
<sfllaw> Generally, that should be filed as a security bug, so you won't bump into it.
<sfllaw> But try private messaging dholbach or me, if it isn't one.
<sfllaw> We'll set it to Security and give you a bug.
<sfllaw> LjL asks: Sometimes you experience problems that you can conceivably suppose to be due to bugs - however, you are not able to track the problem down to a given package, or reproduce it reliably. Normally, I feel that in these situations, a bug report would be useless or, even worse, distracting; however, there might still be some value in reporting the problem "somewhere", so what would you recommend? A forum post, a Launchpad support
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
<LjL> !netsplit
<sfllaw> If you can't reproduce it reliably, a support request is probably your best bet.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<sfllaw> If you can't reproduce it reliably, a support request is probably your best bet.
<LjL> sfllaw: thanks, sorry for the horribly long question - didn't realize it was so long ;)
<sfllaw> Yawner asks: If a bug contains a crash report, should you ask for a backtrace? Can you clarify the difference between the two?
<sfllaw> The crash reports contains a backtrace within.  The difference is that the crash report is more complete.
<sfllaw> GNOME's bug buddy provides a bit of extra metadata.
<Yawner> aha ok, thanks
<sfllaw> Apport provides a lot of Ubuntu specific metadata.
<sfllaw> OK.  Done with this batch of questions.  On we go.
<sfllaw> A large class of reports are duplicates.  These are filed by people who did not look or could not find a bug report identical to their problem.  So they filed a new one.  But looking through the bug tracking system, we can spot quite a few if we take some time.
<sfllaw> For instance, let's look at the Totem's list of bugs: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bugs
<sfllaw> There's a bug about screen blanking while watching movies, http://launchpad.net/bugs/66257
<sfllaw> It has one bug marked as duplicate.  You can find a list of duplicates in the left sidebar.  That one is http://launchpad.net/bugs/73029
<sfllaw> If someone filed a new bug that was exactly the same as this one, you could click on the "Mark as Duplicate" link in the left sidebar, and enter "66257" as the bug number.
<sfllaw> This reduces the clutter in the bug tracking system.  You want to choose the definitive bug with the most complete information, and make all the other duplicates refer to it.  If information is scattered around, you can edit the description of the definitive bug.
<sfllaw> You can find new bugs by looking at the big list of untriaged bugs, that I mentioned before.
<sfllaw> Or you can join #ubuntu-bugs and listen as Ubugtu rattles off new bugs every few minutes.
<sfllaw> It says things like this:
<sfllaw> New bug: #73643 in gaim (main) "Gaim crashes while getting roomlist" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73643
<sfllaw> This tells you that a new bug has been filed for the gaim source package.
<sfllaw> Gaim lives in main.
<sfllaw> And it provides a description of what's wrong.
<sfllaw> Plus a handy URL to the bug.
<sfllaw> The description of a bug is mutable, so that you can summarize the discussion held in the comments.
<sfllaw> This is really useful because difficult bugs may have pages and pages of comments.
<sfllaw> To change the description, click the "Edit Description/Tags" link in the sidebar.  Try to clean up the description with a good summary of: Version, Reproduction steps, Expected result, Actual result, and a Diagnosis of the problem.
<sfllaw> You should also make sure the Summary is something useful, so people browsing for duplicates can find a relevant bug easily.
<sfllaw> Bad descriptions are: "Program crashes."
<sfllaw> Good descriptions are: "Program crashes with 'Error 12: Can't find my brain on line 382.'"
<sfllaw> A good description is easily searchable using keywords people would think of.
<sfllaw> And error messages are good because they are often unique to the problem.
<sfllaw> Click "Change" after updating the text.
<sfllaw> Ubuntu bugs can be tied to upstream bugs.  They can also be tied to bugs in other distributions.
<sfllaw> One example is bug 27810: http://launchpad.net/bugs/27810
<sfllaw> If you look at the task table, you'll see three different lines.
<sfllaw> libaio (Ubuntu)
<sfllaw> upstart (Ubuntu)
<sfllaw> libaio (Debian)
<sfllaw> So the first two have to do with Ubuntu packages.
<sfllaw> And the third has to do with Debian ones.
<sfllaw> If I were going through this bug doing triage right now, I'd do the following things.
<sfllaw> - Realize that it has nothing to do with upstart, and reject it.
<sfllaw>   To do this, I click on the upstart (Ubuntu) task and set its Status to Rejected.
<sfllaw> - Notice that Fabio claims that this isn't a problem in Ubuntu because the brokenness was never imported.
<sfllaw> - Test to make sure I cannot reproduce the problem.
<sfllaw>   If everything works properly, I set libaio (Ubuntu)'s Status to Rejected.
<sfllaw> In order to add upstream tasks, you will note two links under the task table:
<sfllaw> "Also affects: +Upstream... +Distribution..."
<sfllaw> If a bug affects another distribution like Fedora, Guadalinux, or Debian, with its own packages, use the +Distribution link.
<sfllaw> If a bug is caused by an upstream program's misbehaviour and is not a packaging bug, use the +Upstream link.
<sfllaw> You will have to file the bug in the other bug tracker, but then you can paste that bug's URL in to the "Request fix in a..." page, which will link the bugs together.
<sfllaw> But often, the bug will already exist upstream, so you don't want to file a duplicate there.  Just paste in that bug's URL in to our bug tracker.
<sfllaw> Every day, the status of this bug will be updated with the upstream's status.
<sfllaw> Plus, you can search for bugs which have been fixed by upstream.
<sfllaw> Now that I've got you interested, you may be asking "sfllaw: How can I join the BugSquad?"
<sfllaw> You don't have to have any serious experience before applying.  You can start in BugSquad right now.
<sfllaw> Acceptance is automatic and we'd love to teach you the ropes.
<sfllaw> You can join by:
<sfllaw> - Joining the #ubuntu-bugs channel
<sfllaw> - Getting a Launchpad account
<sfllaw> - Applying for membership at https://launchpad.net/people/bugsquad
<sfllaw> For more information, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs which describes how to help with bugs and how to participate in the BugSquad.
<sfllaw> We hang out in the #ubuntu-bugs IRC channel on irc.freenode.net.
<sfllaw> You can find help and encouragement (and hugs) there all the time.
<sfllaw> Finally, I want to point out that we have an UbuntuHugDay scheduled for next Wednesday.  If you want to start helping with bugs, that would be a great time to pitch in.
<sfllaw> Thanks everybody!
<sfllaw> I've got eleven minutes for questions.
<Yawner> thanks Simon
<sfllaw> daxelrod asks: Bug hugs?
<sfllaw> So this is one of the things we do to recognize when people have done good work.
<sfllaw> We give away virtual hugs when you've finished something.
<sfllaw> If you ever meet dholbach or me in real life, we're pretty happy to give you a real hug too.
<sfllaw> Hugging is a nice way to put a smile on someone's face.  I highly recommend giving away free hugs.
<sfllaw> jrib asks: Can a bug have more than one assignee?  If not, is it just because this will cause confusion?
<sfllaw> It doesn't really make sense to have more than one "person" responsible for a bug.
<sfllaw> If you want to keep track of a bug, you can subscribe to it.
<sfllaw> There can be an unlimited number of subscribers.
<sfllaw> Jucato asks: There's a particular situation regarding KDE bugs. KDE people want KDE bugs reported upstream rather than in Launchpad. does this present a problem for users and the bug squad?
<sfllaw> There is little we can do to prevent people from filing bugs in Ubuntu's bug tracker.  And we don't want to discourage them.
<sfllaw> For instance, we could have introduced the bug ourselves with a patch.
<sfllaw> We are happy to forward bugs upstream so that KDE people can fix them.
<sfllaw> And link them in with our bug tracker, as I described above.
<sfllaw> Having it in Launchpad means Ubuntu developers will know about the problem and can find out about the fix when KDE releases it.
<sfllaw> Yawner asks: I have just opened a bug report for Skype, to my knowledge this is not within the Ubuntu Repositories? Do I just forward this bug upstream to Skype? Or reject it?
<sfllaw> So the answer to this is two-part:
<sfllaw> If it's a problem with Ubuntu that prevents a third-party package from working, that would be a bug.
<sfllaw> If it's the third-party package that's broken, you will want to Reject the bug and ask the reporter to talk with the authors.
<Yawner> hmm.. ok , thanks
<sfllaw> So as an example of the first problem, if we broke glibc by accident, then that would be our bug.
<sfllaw> The chances of this happening are pretty low, though.
<sfllaw> Jucato asks: well, they say that they don't get informed of the KDE bugs that are filed in Launchpad or that they don't want to keep track of 2 bugtrackers. who forwards them upstream, when and how are they forwarded, and how do you know which ones to forward?
<sfllaw> That is a fair statement, but there is nothing we can do to prevent users from filing KDE bugs into Launchpad.
<sfllaw> And Kubuntu is often the first experience people have with KDE.
<sfllaw> Even if they don't know what KDE is.
<sfllaw> The BugSquad is the group that does much of the forwarding.
<sfllaw> If you are interested in KDE packages, I hope that you will start triaging there.
<sfllaw> And become a local expert about various KDE bugs.
* pitti waves
<Jucato> I try, sometimes.... :P
<sfllaw> All right, our time is up for this session.
<sfllaw> Thank you all for attending.
<LjL> thank you sfllaw
<sfllaw> I will field further questions in #ubuntu-bugs.
<sfllaw> The next session is about Edubuntu with ogra.
<Jucato> thank you sfllaw!
<pitti> sfllaw: erm, it's about patching packages
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 10pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: Patching Packages (beginning shortly)
<sfllaw> Oh yeah.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<sfllaw> I'm reading wrong.
<coNP> should we report this as a bug?
* pitti rings the school bell
<sfllaw> Patching Packages with Martin Pitt (pitti)
* sfllaw hugs pitti.
<LjL> coNP: :-)
* pitti shakes sfllaw's hand
<pitti> .. and gives him a great hug, of course!
<jono> great session sfllaw
<pitti> so, who are the Happy Patch People around here? :0
<jrib> thank you
* jrib raises hand
<pitti> just a warning, today's talk will be 95% the same as the one I held on Tuesday
* jorgp raises hand, Im here
<pitti> jrib, jorgp: welcome
<ailean> me :)
<jrib> hmm do you think you can get a chance to cover quilt?
<pitti> ah, seems that most of the folks already attended Tuesday
<pitti> so much the better :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 10pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Patching Packages
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<pitti> jrib: yes, if time permits
* pitti clears his throat
<pitti> if anyone has any question, or I'm totally uncomprehensible (sorry, I'm German), please do not hesitate to interrupt and ask *immediately*
<pitti> Also, don't bother trying to take notes, we'll sort that out at the end. You can fully concentrate on the discussion and examples.
<pitti> Let's begin with a little bit of history:
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o pitti]  by LjL
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<pitti> oh, I will usually paste a snippet and then give you some time to catch up and ask, ok?
<pitti> == Why use separate patches ==
<pitti> In earlier times, people just applied patches inline (i. e. directly in the source code tree). However, this makes it very hard to extract patches later to modify them, send them upstream, etc. Also this means that new upstream versions are a pain, since they generate a lot of rejections when applying the package diff.gz to them.
<pitti> With split-out patches it is much easier to send them upstream, keep track of them, develop them, etc., since you always see which changes belong together.
<pitti> The ideal state is an unmodified tarball from upstream, plus clean and separate patches, plus the packaging bits in debian/. That means that lsdiff <sourcepackage>.diff.gz only contains debian/.
<pitti> The first attempts to split-out patches were pretty trivial: storing patches in debian/patches/, and adding some patch/patch -R snippets to debian/rules. This worked for small patches, but provided no tools for editing these patches, updating them for new upstream versions, etc.
<pitti> Thus several standard patch systems were created which are easy to deploy and provide tools for patch juggling and editing.
<pitti> any general questions at this point?
<pitti> no? ok
<jrib> nope, I'm ok
<pitti> What I would like to do now is to introduce the most common patch systems and show some hands-on demo how to add a new patch and how to edit one. For this, I will point at a source package from the current dapper archive, quickly explain the patch system, and show how to apply some (braindead) modifications to it. I recommend you to do the same steps in a terminal, so that you get a feeling for the process and can immediately ask questions.
<pitti> everyone you fine with this approach?
<elliot__> Yeah, sounds good
<pitti> If you want to try the stuff yourself, please do the following commands (on edgy) as preparation:
<pitti>   sudo apt-get install dpatch cdbs quilt patchutils devscripts
<pitti>   apt-get source cron udev pmount gnome-volume-manager ed xterm
<pitti>   wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/dsrc-new-patch
<pitti>   chmod 755 dsrc-new-patch
<pitti> I deliberately picked the smallest packages I could find
* pitti waits a bit for people to do the preparations
<pitti> ok?
<ailean> 2 mins
<jrib> yep
<elliot__>  I'm done
<jorgp> im ready
<dzzsky> Yes
<Netfinity> done
<ailean> done
<pitti> ailean: the first one doesn't require action from you, just let it grind
<chickn> rdy.
<pitti> == cron: inline patches ==
<pitti> No patch system at all, nothing much to say about this.  You directly edit the files in the source tree. This is convenient for a simple and quick change, but will bite back for new upstream versions (see above) and is inconvenient for submitting patches upstream, or reviewing for merges.
<pitti> if you do 'lsdiff <package>.diff.gz' and you see changes which are not in debian/, then you probably have such a package
<pitti> (some KDE packages have autoconf stuff directly in the diff.gz, but that is ok)
<pitti> so, I think I do not need to say anything else about cron, unless someone has a question
<pitti> this style of packages can be mainly found in (1) packages which are around for ages (like cron) or packages where Debian/Ubuntu is upstream
<pitti> or when the maintainer simply thinks he won't need a patch system
<pitti> :)
<pitti> ok, then let's dive in
<pitti> == udev: separate patches, but no patch system ==
<pitti> This case is the most complicated one since you have to do all the hard work manually. In order to make you understand what a patch system does, and to give you a fallback method that will *always* work with any patch system, I handle this first.
<pitti> The good news is that you will seldomly be required to actually do this procedure, since for many packages there are nice tools which make things a charm.
<pitti> The bad news is that it may seem utterly complicated for people who never did it before, but I would like you to understand what's actually going on behind the curtains of the tools.
<pitti> since it is your live safer
<pitti> life, even
<pitti> So please do not desperate if you do not fully understand it at first; there's written documentation and you can always take your time to grok it.
<pitti> The general approach is:
<pitti> oh, please ask questions right here, as I asked for
<pitti> I like to treat them synchronously, since this is a hands-on tutorial
<pitti>  <jrib> QUESTION: we need  lsdiff -z <package>.diff.gz  right?
<pitti> jrib: right, that will show what the diff.gz touches
<pitti> ideally this is just debian/
<pitti> <ailean> QUESTION: I'm a complete beginner to all of this . . . I'm unsure about what cron is, and what .diff.gz is. Should I consult something else before coming back to read these logs?
<pitti> ailean: I'm afraid you might be overwhelmed by this stuff
<pitti> I do assume that you have basic familiarity about what a source pacakge is and how it looks like
<ailean> fair enough . . . :)
<pitti> this is intended to be a tutorial for people who want to hack on packages
<pitti> ailean: but of course feel free to listen
<pitti> ailean: cron is 'just a random package' for our purposes
<pitti> ailean: and a diff.gz is the disto specific part on top of the original upstream tarball, with all the packaging specific bits and code changes
<pitti> but due to limited time I can't be more specific here
<pitti> ok, so the general approach
<pitti> 1. copy the clean source tree to a temporary directory /tmp/old
<pitti> 2. apply all patches up to the one you want to edit; if you want to create a new patch, apply all existing ones (this is necessary since in general patches depend on previous patches)
<pitti> 3. copy the whole source tree again: cp -a /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> 4. go into /tmp/new, do your modifications
<pitti> 5. go back into /tmp and generate the patch with
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > mypatchname.patch
<pitti> 6. move the newly generated patch to <original source dir>/debian/patches/mypatchname.patch
<pitti> (just the theory, detailled explanation will follow shortly)
<pitti> with the demo it will become clear
<pitti> just an explanation of the '-Nurp' diff options:
<pitti> in general we want the following diff options:
<pitti> -N -> include new files
<pitti> -u -> unified patches (context diffs are ugly)
<pitti> -r -> recursive
<pitti> -p -> bonus, you can see the name of the affected function in the patch
<pitti> does anyone have a question about the principle method?
* pitti wonders if he still has an audience
<jrib> when you say we need to apply  the patches up to the one we need to edit, does that mean all of the ones that start with a smaller number?
<pitti> jrib: right
<chickn> wait..before you go too far, i don't get how you know if a package has a 'patching system' or not..
<pitti> jrib: in 95% of the cases, patches are applied in asciibetical order, and since most patches are prefixed with a number, sorted by number
* ailean is listening, but is overwhelmed :)
<pitti> chickn: ah, good question
<pitti> chickn: if there is a debian/patches/ with patches, then most probably there is a patch system
<pitti> chickn: there are very few braindead pacakges which apply their patches inline and additionally put them into debian/patches/ for future reference
<pitti> this is just *silly*
<pitti> and it happened to the best of us that we just sticked a new patch into that and wondered why it didn't become active
<pitti> you can check debian/rules and search for 'patch', that's a pretty safe method
<chickn> k.
<pitti> ok, some hands-on example on udev
<chickn> So for cron...there's no reference for 'patch' in rules
<pitti> open a shell, ready your fingers :)
<pitti> chickn: right, and you will see taht lsdiff -z cron*.diff.gz contains source code patches
<chickn> k.
<pitti> chickn: i. e. it just applies the patches inline in the raw source tree
<pitti> jrib: your q was answered, too?
<jrib> pitti: yep, carry on
<pitti> udev example 1, let's create a new patch 90_penguins.patch:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
<pitti> -> now we are in our original source tree where we want to add a new patch
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
<pitti> -> create a copy of the clean sources as reference tree
<pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
<pitti> -> go to /tmp/old; 'pushd' to remember the previous directory, so that we can go back conveniently
<pitti>   debian/rules patch
<pitti> -> apply all already existing patches; of course we could use the 'patch' program to do it manually, but since debian/rules already knows how to do it, let's use it. The actual name for the patch target varies, I have seen the following ones so far: patch, setup, apply-patches, unpack, patch-stamp. You have to look in debian/rules how it is called.
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
<pitti> -> copies our patched reference tree to our new work directory /tmp/new where we can hack in
<pitti> that's the preparatory part
<pitti> set so far?
<jrib> yep
<elliot__> give me a mo
<chickn> k.
<jorgp> k
<elliot__> yes fine now
<pitti> let's do a braindead modification now
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti> -> changes the README file; of course you can use your favourite editor, but I wanted to keep my examples copy&pasteable
<pitti> and now we create a patch between the reference and our new tree:
<pitti>   cd ..
<pitti> -> go back to /tmp, i. e. where our reference tree (old) and hacked tree (new) is located
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 90_penguins.patch
<pitti> -> generate the patch (Ignore the 'recursive directory loop' warnings)
<pitti>   popd
<pitti> -> now you should be back in your original source tree (when you did the pushd)
<pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> -> clean up the temporary trees
<pitti>   mv /tmp/90_penguins.patch debian/patches
<pitti> -> move the patch from /tmp to the source tree's patch directory, where it belongs.
<pitti> *uff* :)
<pitti> Now take a look at your shiny new debian/patches/90_penguins.patch.
<pitti> after that, if you do 'debian/rules patch', you'll see that the patch applies cleanly; please do 'debclean' afterwards to unapply the patches and get back a pristine source tree
<pitti> so, obviously that's not the end of the wisdom, but if you do these steps a couple of times, you should get a feeling for how to create the most complicated patch conceivable
<pitti> so this procedure is the life safer if anything else fails
<pitti> questions so far?
<jrib> I notice that the patches jump from 01 to 40, and sometimes only jump by 5.  What is the convention in naming the patches?
<pitti> jrib: there's no real policy
<pitti> jrib: often patches are named in ascending order, then maybe patch 05 becomes obsolete or applied upstream
<chickn> but if you're writing patches on top of ones already applied - shouldn't your name be something that will come last?
<pitti> jrib: sometimes, maintainers organize them in blocks
<pitti> jrib: e. g. in postgresql, upstream patches start with 00, server patches from 10 to 300, contrib patches from 300 to 400, etc.
<pitti> jrib: the only rule is that the asciibetical order is the correct order for applying them; they do not even need to start with a number
<pitti> chickn: right, usually you should
<jrib> ah ok, makes sense
<pitti> chickn: however, if you pull stuff from upstream, convention is that you order them first, so that the distro-specific patches stay on top
<chickn> gah i think i jacked my patch
<pitti> chickn: that makes it easier to upgrade to a new upstream patch
<pitti> s/patch$/version/
<chickn> "No file to patch.  Skipping patch."
<chickn> ooo my paths are all goofy.
<pitti> chickn: ok, please try again later and rm -rf the udev tree and apt-get source it again
<chickn> k.
<chickn> i gotta goto class anyway. thanks!
<pitti> Pretty much work, isn't it? Since this happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose.
<pitti> chickn: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources
<pitti> so, please rm debian/patches/90_penguins.patch
<pitti> I know, it was precious and hard to do, but now it gets easier :)
<pitti> Using this script, above steps would reduce to:
* elliot__ looks forward to this getting easier
<pitti>   ../dsrc-new-patch 90_penguins.patch
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> that looks slightly better, doesn't it? If you like the script, please put it into your ~/bin, so that it is in your $PATH
<pitti> but I had to torture you with the close-to-the-metal method for the sake of understanding.
<elliot__> Yeah
<pitti> but let's stay at udev a bit and do the second example
<pitti> I promise, this will be the last complicated issue in this lesson
<pitti> but it might teach you to never ever do a package without a proper patch system :)
<pitti> dsrc-new-patch is currently too dumb to edit existing patches, or to put patches somewhere else than the top of the patch stack. If you need this, then you need to do the manual approach.
<pitti> Assume we want to edit 50-result-whitespace.patch. This patch does not depend on the previous patches, so it's a bit easier that way, too:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
<pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
<pitti> -> nothing new so far, just created a reference and a hack tree
<pitti> but note that we did not apply any patch (since we assume that 50-result-whitespace.patch does not depend on its predecessors)
<pitti> everyone got that?
<elliot__> yeah, give me a moment
<apral> yep
<elliot__> yup
<pitti>   patch -Nlp1 < debian/patches/50-result-whitespace.patch
<pitti> above will apply the current version of the patch, so that you can edit it
<pitti> we have to do that only in /tmp/new, so that our final diff call catches both the old patch and our new modifications
<pitti>   sed -i '1 s/$/***** HELLO WORLD ****/' udev_selinux.c
<pitti> (just some random braindead change)
<pitti> now we have the updated tree in /tmp/new
<pitti> so let's do the patch:
<pitti>   cd ..
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 50-result-whitespace.patch
<pitti>   popd
<pitti>   mv /tmp/50-result-whitespace.patch debian/patches
<pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> exactly the same commands as before
<pitti> Now debian/patches/50-result-whitespace.patch contains both the original change and our modification of the first line of the source file.
* pitti wonders whether he managed to kill his complete audience now
<pitti> but promised, from now on it will get really easy :)
<pitti> any questions? is the issue of patch dependencies clear to everyone?
<jrib> if 50-result-whitespace.patch depended on 01-lib-udev.patch for example.  Would the procedure then just be to apply 01-lib-udev.patch to old first and then do the same thing as before?
<pitti> jrib: you got it
<elliot__> Ready to continue
<pitti> jrib: if you want to stay at the safe side, just apply all patches before the one you want to edit in /tmp/old
<pitti> doing that can never hurt
<jrib> good point
<jorgp> im with you
<pitti> Since this is so hideously complicated, patch systems were invented to aid you with that. Let's look at the most popular ones now (they are sufficient to allow you to patch about 90% of the archive's source packages; for the rest you have to resort to the manual approach above).
<pitti> == pmount: cdbs with simple-patchsys ==
<pitti> cdbs' simple-patchsys.mk module matches its name, it has no bells and whistles whatsoever. However, it is pretty popular since it is sufficient for most tasks, and long ago I wrote a script 'cdbs-edit-patch' which most people can live with pretty well. This script is contained in the normal cdbs package.
<pitti> however, of course it only works for pacakges which actually use cdbs
<pitti> i. e. which have a cdbs build-dependency
<pitti> and include some stuff (simple-patchsys.mk in particular) from /usr/share/cdbs
<pitti> ^ in debian/rules
<pitti> please take a quick look at debian/rules in the pmount source
<pitti> You just supply the name of a patch to the script, and depending on whether it already exists or not, it will create a new patch or edit an existing one.
<pitti> this includes taking care of patch dependencies, editing patches in the middle of the stack, etc.
<pitti> so, let's mess up pmount a bit
<pitti> and add a new patch
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/pmount-0.9.13
<pitti>   cdbs-edit-patch 03-simple-readme.patch
<pitti>   echo 'This should document pmount' > README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> easy, isn't it?
<pitti> ok?
<jorgp> that was easy
<pitti> Editing an already existing patch works exactly the same way.
<pitti> so I won't give a demo
<elliot__> got to go now. Whats the link for the chat log?
<DShepherd> elliot__: topic
<elliot__> DSheperd: Thanks
<pitti> elliot__: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources is the wiki page for it
<pitti> BTW, "cdbs-edit-patch" is slightly misleading, since it actually only applies to simple-patchsys.mk. You can also use other cdbs patch system plugins, such as dpatch or quilt.
<pitti> questions?
<jrib> nope, this is a lot easier :)
<pitti> I promised :)
<pitti> == ed: dpatch ==
<pitti> dpatch is a pretty robust and proven patch system which also ships a script 'dpatch-edit-patch'
<pitti>  The two most important things you should be aware of:
<pitti>  * dpatch does not apply debian/patches/*, but instead applies all patches mentioned in debian/patches/00list, in the mentioned order. That means that you do not have to rely on asciibetical ordering of the patches and can easily disable patches, but you have to make sure to not forget to update 00list if you add a new patch.
<pitti> (forgetting to update 00list is a common cause of followup uploads)
<pitti>  * dpatch patches are actually scripts that are executed, not just patches fed to 'patch'. That means you can also do fancy things like calling autoconf or using sed in a dpatch if you want.
<pitti> using dpatch for non-native patches is rare, and normally you do not need to worry about how a .dpatch file looks like
<pitti> but I think it's important to mention it
<pitti> so if you ever want to replace *all* instances of Debian with Ubuntu in all files, write a dpatch with a small shell script that uses sed
<pitti> instead of doing a 300 KB static patch which won't apply to the next version anyway
<pitti> The manpage is very good and has examples, too, so I will only give an example here:
<pitti> This will edit an already existing patch and take care that all previous patches are applied in order:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/ed-0.2
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch 05_ed.1-warning-fix
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti> so that's exactly like cdbs-edit-patch
<pitti> ok, now we edited a patch, that's pretty easy, right?
<jorgp> yes
<pitti> now let's create a new one; this is different from cdbs-edit-patch
<pitti> (due to the 00list handling)
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch foo.dpatch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti>   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
<pitti> This will create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to the already existing 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch. If your patch is very confined and does not depend on other patches, you can leave out the second argument.
<pitti> please note the last action (adding your new patch at the appropriate position in the patch list)
<jorgp> would it still be in this scope of discussion to talk about patches that don't apply cleanly
<pitti> so again, dpatch does *not* rely on any asciibetical order by default
<pitti> jorgp: of course
<pitti> jorgp: if you get a source package from the archive, they should apply cleanly
<pitti> jorgp: and if you got a patch from upstream and stick it into debian/patches/, but it doesn't apply, you have to fix it, of course
<pitti> jorgp: cdbs-edit-patch and dpatch-e-p will just try and leave you in the shell with the *.rej files
<pitti> then you simply resolve the *.rej files, and press C-D to update the patch
<pitti> jorgp: is that what you meant?
<jorgp> yes
<jorgp> thanks
<pitti> jorgp: however, please keep in mind that a dpatch is a patch with a shell script header, not a simple patch (as mentioned above)
<pitti> so to avoid this entirely, you should never just stick an unknown patch into debian/patches
<pitti> instead, you use *-edit-patch
<pitti> and *then* use patch -p1 < /path/to/your/new/patch
<pitti> edit the mess there
<pitti> and let *-edit-patch create the actual patch in the source tree
<pitti> ok?
<jrib> yep
<pitti> then let's go to the last patch system
<pitti> == xterm: quilt ==
<pitti> quilt is the other non-dumb standard patch system. Like dpatch, it has a list of patches to apply in patches/series (to use debian/patches, packages need to add a sylink).
<pitti> It is non-trivial to set up and has a lot of advanced commands which make it very flexible, but not very easy to use.
<pitti> nontrivial to set up for Debian source packages, that is
<pitti> (it's not hard either, but more work than simple-patchsys, and even dpatch)
<pitti> I will only show a small example here
<pitti> in the xterm source
<pitti> First, you can use the existing machinery to set up symlinks and directories for quilt:
<pitti> cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/xterm-216
<pitti> debian/rules prepare
<pitti> the 'prepare' target is not standardized; you need to look into debian/rules
<pitti> however, it usually boils down to 'export QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches' (which should work fine everywhere)
<pitti> since quilt's default patch dir is ./patches
<pitti> so some packages set up a symlink, some export QUILT_PATCHES, etc.
<pitti> Now let's edit the already existing patch 901_xterm_manpage.diff:
<pitti> quilt push 901_xterm_manpage.diff
<pitti> this will apply all patches in the stack up to the given one
<pitti> apply inline right in the source tree, that is
<pitti> i. e. *not* in a temporary directory and not in a subshell
<pitti> quilt keeps track of applied patches in the source tree internally
<pitti> now let's edit a file that is already touched by the original patch
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Copyright/Copyleft/' xterm.man
<pitti> let's commit the change:
<pitti>   quilt refresh 901_xterm_manpage.diff
<pitti> So unlike the other patch systems, quilt works with patched inline sources, but keeps track of modifications.
* pitti waits a bit for people to catch up and finish the example on their keyboards
<pitti> k?
<jrib> k
<jorgp> k
<pitti> Finally, let's add a new patch to the top of the stack:
<pitti>   quilt push -a
<pitti> '-a' means 'all patches', thus it applies all further patches after 901_xterm_manpage.diff up to the top
<pitti>   quilt new muhaha.diff
<pitti> register a new patch name (which we want to put on top of the patch stack)
<pitti>   quilt add README
<pitti> you have to do that for all files you modify, so that quilt can keep track of the original version
<pitti> this tells quilt to keep track of the original version of README
<pitti>   sed -i '1 s/^/MUHAHA/' README
<pitti> modify the source
<pitti>   quilt refresh
<pitti> this will finally create debian/patches/muhaha.diff with the changes to README
<pitti> as I already said above, quilt has a patch list, too
<pitti> in debian/patches/series
<pitti> which is much like debian/patches/00list for dpatch
<pitti> and if you push -a, then the patch will land on top of the patch stack, and will automatically be put at the end of series
<pitti> of course you can create the patch in other levels of the patch stack
<pitti> but usually you want the top
<pitti> sometimes, when you pull changes from upstream CVS, it's better to put them at the bottom of the stack
<pitti> i. e. upstream changes shuold generally come *before* distro-specific changes
<pitti> ok?
<jrib> ok
<pitti> === A glimpse into the future ===
<pitti> As you saw, Debian source packages do not have any requirements wrt. structure, patch systems, etc., other source package systems like SRPM are much stricter wrt that. This of course means more flexibility, but also much more learning overhead.
<pitti> As a member of the security team I can tell tales of the pain of a gazillion different source package layouts... :)
<pitti> Therefore some clever people sat together the other day to propose a new design which would both give us a new and unified source package and patch system that uses bzr (with a quilt-like workflow). This would also integrate packages and patches much better into Launchpad and revision control in general.
<pitti> Please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages if you are interested in this.
<pitti> I don't want to handle this here, since it's really distant future
<pitti> oh, and officially again:
<_ion> That was new to me. Sounds very cool.
<pitti> === Notes ===
<pitti> The channel topic points to fabbione's logs, so that you can get the full conversation
<pitti> There is also a wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources which provides most of above information in a more convenient format. However, it might be slightly out of date (it's from dapper times). Feel free to update the page and and add missing bits.
<pitti> we are already at the end of the our
<pitti> thank you for your attention!
<jrib> sorry, one more question about quilt.  After our last command, the patches are still applied so do we have to unapply them before building the source package?
<LjL> !openweek
<ubotu> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<pitti> I hope you could learn a bit
<pitti> jrib: debclean will take care of that
<apral> thanks for the lesson-have learnt much & have much to practise.never a hint of an accent.apologies for learning quietly.
<jorgp> thank you again pitti
<jrib> pitti: great, thanks for the session
<pitti> jrib: and if you build without cleaning, then quilt will know that it already applied the patches
<ailean> thanks pitti
<pitti> jrib: as I said, quilt keeps track of everything, it's pretty hard to break
<jonh_wendell> pitti, i'm sorry, i missed this one, i'll look logs...
<DenisTheMenace> how can i build the source package?
<pitti> I am terribly sorry that I cannot stay longer, I have to rush to a concert now
<pitti> DenisTheMenace: debuild -us -uc -b
<pitti> if you have any further questions, can you please mail me? martin.pitt@ubuntu.com
<apokryphos> There'll be a one hour break now before the next talk, which will be on The Ubuntu Desktop Team.
<DenisTheMenace> thanks pitti and have fun at the concert
<jaclark> thanks!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 10pm UTC | For the schedule, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Daily sessions start at 1500UTC - to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: Ubuntu Desktop Team (starting at 1900UTC)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<pitti> the wiki page summarizes all of that, too, including the examples
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo pitti sfllaw]  by ChanServ
<pitti> any other questions?
<pitti> (5 minutes to go)
<jorgp> which patching system do you prefer and why?
<pitti> jorgp: I use cdbs+simple-patchsys.mk for my packages
<pitti> jorgp: mainly because I like it's simplicity, wrote cdbs-edit-patch which makes it easy to deal with it, and I don't want to use different systems
<jorgp> im starting to really like cdbs
<pitti> me too, the concept of factorization and modularization is The Right Thing (tm)
<pitti> if only the docs were better :)
<jorgp> hehe, thanks for the session
<pitti> you're welcome
<pitti> I'm glad if you could learn something
<jorgp> yes, alot
<pitti> and, please never hesitate to mail me or ask me in #ubuntu-devel if you have a question about a particualar package
<a7p> is anyone doing transcripts?
<LjL> i learned how clueless i am about packages ;-) but anyway, it was interesting to read... even given the little i had the background to understand - thank you pitti
<pitti> a7p: see topic
<LjL> !openweek | a7p
<ubotu> a7p: Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
* a7p missed the session
<LjL> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs - See also !OpenWeek
<pitti> ok, bye everyone!
<Lesley> bye
<tonyyarusso> a7p: Oh, btw, mind are pretty much automatic except for going through and splitting them by session.
<tonyyarusso> *mine
<a7p> tonyyarusso, I saw ...
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3pm and 10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Friday's Freshers' Day! Join #ubuntu-freshers for talk+questions | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: Ubuntu Desktop T
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
<apokryphos> dang
<LjL> *grin*
<apokryphos> too crowded :O
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
<a7p> tonyyarusso, I thought about turning them into a block-text and a compact Q&A-section - but I think that's useless work - I will read the logs I am interested in and will extend the the Wiki-Howtos.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Friday's Freshers' Day! Join #ubuntu-freshers for talk+questions | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: Ubuntu Desktop Team
<apokryphos> cool
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
<stefg> ping
<LjL> pong
<stefg> Ok, i'm connected :-) (which isn't taken for granted if i watch how often i got disconnected today..)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC - convert timezones at http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Friday's Freshers' Day! #ubuntu-freshers for talk+questions | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next session: Ubuntu Desktop Team (starting shortly)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<seb128> hum, k
<seb128> looks like it's DesktopTeam presentation time :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Friday's Freshers' Day! Join #ubuntu-freshers for talk+questions | Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Please keep support questions in #ubuntu | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Ubuntu Desktop Team
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o seb128]  by ChanServ
<seb128> hi everybody
<ypsila> moin
<seb128> I'm Sebastien Bacher, working for Canonical and member of the Ubuntu DesktopTeam
<seb128> I'll do a short presentation first of what are the team goals and what is the team doing and what you can do if you want to contribute
<seb128> then I'll reply to questions
<seb128> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions here in #ubuntu-classroom-chat rather than #ubuntu-classroom (prefix them with "QUESTION: " or the instructor's nickname)
<seb128> for questions then
<seb128> and I (or somebody else if somebody wants to do the job) will copy them on that chan and I'll reply
<seb128> quick round, do we have any member of the desktop team around who want to say hi and what they are doing quickly? ;)
<seb128> dholbach? ;)
<apokryphos> dholbach is away: /me -> walk
<seb128> it's sort of dinner time for people on european time so maybe some people are not around
<seb128> anyway, let's start
<seb128> The desktop team is the team working on the Ubuntu desktop.
<seb128> The main goals for the team are:
<seb128> - update desktop packages when new upstream versions are available
<seb128> - make easy for users to try new cool softwares by packaging them quickly
<seb128> - have a good collaboration with upstream
<seb128> - triage and fix desktop bugs
<seb128> - make the Ubuntu Desktop ROCK!
<dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, work for Canonical too and am part of the Desktop Team also. I work on Telepathy too, Accessibility, and a couple of other teams also. :-)
<seb128> hey dholbach :)
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<dholbach> guys, I don't type as quick as seb128
* dholbach hugs seb128
<dholbach> :)
<seb128> note that the team is friendly and hugs are common around ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> Where you can find members of the desktop team:
<seb128> - the #ubuntu-desktop@freenode IRC chan
<seb128> - the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list
<seb128> 
<seb128> feel free to join the chan or the list at any time if you want to ask any question or start working on the desktop and help the team
<seb128> 
<seb128> let see what the team do and where you can help
<seb128> 
<seb128> * Work on Bugs:
<seb128> Bugs managements is a good part of the work for the desktop team at the moment and required to prioritise the work and now what problems should worked first
<seb128> .
<seb128> - Places for desktop bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
<seb128> - You can help the Desktop Team by joining the bug squad (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
<seb128>  * 236 members to date
<seb128>  * ~60000 bug mails in the last year ;-)
<seb128>  * Hug Days
<seb128>  * forward useful bugs and investigate with upstream
<seb128>  * make bug useful (reassign them to the right place, ask for required details, get debug backtrace for crashers, clean bugs that should be closed)
<seb128> - help listing bugs that should be fixed for the next version of Ubuntu (or fixes to backport)
<seb128> 
<seb128> bugs are taking a good part of our efforts at the moment and somebody anybody can help easily on
<dholbach> ~60000 bug mails (only for desktop bugs)
<seb128> dholbach: stat for this year?
<dholbach> no stats yet
<seb128> any, lot, so any help is welcome :)
<dholbach> but I'd expect it to be   *1.5  at the very least
<seb128> there is not only bugs though
<seb128> 
<seb128> * Communication with other teams, upstream, Debian, etc:
<seb128> We want to have a good relationship with the people we work with
<seb128> .
<seb128> - work on forwarding patches upstream (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/UpstreamDelta), having a low delta is better for everybody
<seb128> - become point of contact between the distribution and upstream for packages you have an interest in
<seb128> - work with other teams and Debian
<seb128> 
<seb128> if people from upstream world want to work with us to make sure their software work nicely on Ubuntu they are welcome
<seb128> and we are really looking for people to "adopt an upstream"
<seb128> = being the point of contact in the distribution for a package and working with upstream making sure everybody is happy
<seb128> 
<seb128> another point
<seb128> 
<seb128> * Documentation:
<seb128> A good documentation help new contributors to know where to start and also not-so-new team members how to do specific things, or what is to do by example
<seb128> .
<seb128> - help by writing specifications (i.e: documents on launchpad and the wiki that describes the changes we want to get implemented and how)
<seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam) (goals, list of things to do, documentation, how to start, etc)
<seb128> 
<seb128> the documentation is important too
<seb128> we are especially looking for good documentation helping the people who start
<seb128> because it's not easy to start when you don't know what to do
<seb128> and after some time people tend to forget the difficulties they have when they started
<seb128> we have everything to win making it easy for people who want to participate :)
<seb128> 
<seb128> next point
<seb128> * Packaging:
<seb128> Most of the work for a distribution is at the packaging level which means there is some place to contribute there too :)
<seb128> .
<seb128> - help doing desktop packages updates (update the package, test the new version, communicate issues with upstream is there is any)
<seb128> - pick a package you have interest in (contacting the usual maintainer before starting to work on it might be a good idea) and start working on it. No need to have uploads right to start on a package, having your first updates mentored is usually a good start and way to learn. If you do a good job you can quickly become the maintainer for that package
<seb128> - work on fixing issues by writting patches or backporting them from upstream and applying those fixes to the packages
<seb128> - package new softwares
<seb128> 
<seb128> we tend to keep up with the GNOME desktop updates usually
<seb128> but there is lot of nice softwares around users would like to play with
<seb128> and that would be nice if people who like to play with them etc would step and maintain the corresponding package
<seb128> and being a contact point for those upstream too ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> and there is testing too!
<seb128> * Testing:
<seb128> - help testing GNOME, write specific test plans
<seb128> * Other:
<seb128> - new ideas: bring your good ideas of changes for the Ubuntu desktop and help to implement them
<seb128> - teams: if you can motivate several people to work on a project creating a team around it is a good way to organize work: pda, printing, mono, telepathy, etc
<seb128> 
<seb128> that's a summary of the things we are working on I think
<seb128> if I forgot some let me know
<seb128> now just a few examples of tasks where you could start
<seb128> and we will do questions
<seb128> 
<seb128> Examples of tasks to start:
<seb128> - If you feel comfortable enough to reply to upstream comment about bugs there is a list of bugs that should be forwarded upstream available on http://tinyurl.com/yzd8t3 (you can also pick bugs not listed there yet, there is plenty of them not categorized to forward)
<seb128> - Clean old 'NeedsInfo' bugs
<seb128> - help out with packaging, maintaining, merging
<seb128> - review bugs with patches attached
<seb128> - look at bugs tagged as 'ubuntulove'
<seb128> - write about the new cool changes happening to the UbuntuDesktop world for UWN: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam to make them useful, especially for new contributors (having an updated and useful https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO would be nice by example)
<seb128> Start here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/GettingStarted
<seb128> 
<seb128> ok
<seb128> that's done for the presentation
<seb128> let's do question then
<apokryphos> <stefg> QUESTION: Ubuntu introduced the Apps/Places/System trinity to gnome, so the System menu is doing the job of a system-tool like yast/drakconf/foobar. But what about xorg.conf generation anything like SaX in the pipeline? (I hate to advice people: You've got to sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg! reaction: ".... dpkg....what???")
<seb128> anybody wants to pick the interesting ones from -chat and copy there on the chan?
<seb128> apokryphos: thank you ;)
<apokryphos> np 8)
<seb128> stefg: the DesktopTeam doesn't maintain xorg, xorg is big enough to have it's own team. I think that xorg has an autoconfig branch and it's going to land to feisty
<Circus-Killer> QUESTION: For now it seems to me that the Desktop team is a mix of all other themes together? You pointed out fixing bugs (not for the bugsquad theme?) and working on documentation (not for the documentation theme?) Is this correct, or just a bit confusion from my point of view?
<LjL> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v apokryphos]  by ChanServ
<apokryphos> <rulus> QUESTION: For now it seems to me that the Desktop team is a mix of all other themes together? You pointed out fixing bugs (not for the bugsquad theme?) and working on documentation (not for the documentation theme?) Is this correct, or just a bit confusion from my point of view?
<stefg> That's not a xorg-thing... will we have a graphical tool to configure xorg is the question...
<seb128> stefg: ah, nothing planned for that no
<seb128> stefg: the way to go is autoconfig from xorg rather than a tool to do it
<apokryphos> stefg: Kubuntu is working on one for Feisty, as I recall.
<seb128> if I understood what the xorg team wants to do
<apokryphos> (in kubuntu there is only some basic configuration available for it at the moment, with kde-guidance)
<seb128> ok, I'm not sure, better ask some xorg guy
<seb128> nothing planned from the desktop team side
<seb128> 
<seb128> rulus: good question
<seb128> bugsquad is not specific to the desktop
<seb128> but the desktop is a component which gets a lot of bugs
<seb128> and you can really help by joining the bugsquad team and help on desktop bugs
<seb128> because the time we spend fighting bugs we can't spend it working on the desktop
<seb128> and that's not easy to find a balance
<seb128> documentation is made by the documentation team
<seb128> I was rather speaking about documentation about the desktop organisation
<seb128> and where to start etc
<seb128> which should be written for the team by people around the team
<seb128> the ubuntu-doc team has enough to do documenting Ubuntu
<seb128> without starting documenting how teams are working
<seb128> 
<apokryphos> <frafu> QUESTION: What is backporting? Bringing applications that are not part of ubuntu into ubuntu?
<seb128> backporting is taking something new and bringing it where you want
<seb128> not sure if that's clear
<seb128> the backport team takes packages from feisty and build them on edgy by example
<seb128> new version of software
<apokryphos> frafu: generally it's done when an ubuntu release has an older version of a popular package, such as, say, firefox
<seb128> like they will likely build gaim 2.0 and build it on edgy
<seb128> so you will get a backport of that new version of gaim for edgy
<seb128> we "backport" patches too
<seb128> which means take fix from a new version
<seb128> and apply them to the previous one to fix the issue
<seb128> s/the issue/an issue
<seb128> 
<apokryphos> <meduxa> QUESTION: do you guys have plans on releasing a live DVD with both Ubuntu and Kubuntu
<seb128> not that I know
<seb128> but if somebody wants to work on that as project that should be doable
<apokryphos> <samgee> QUESTION: how can I look for upstreams that haven't been adopted yet?
<seb128> maybe that could be a spec for next cycle ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> samgee: that is a good question
<seb128> we discussed monday on the first Desktop session about having an "ambassador" noted on launchpad for a package
<seb128> that is not done yet
<seb128> at the moment the best is probably to look at the changelog to know who has worked on the package
<seb128> and to ask him
<seb128> usually people working on a package should know about that
<apokryphos> Any other questions?
<seb128> if they don't there is probably nobody doing that job for the package at the moment
<apokryphos> <amnesia> QUESTION: how's telepathy at the moment
<apokryphos> <amnesia> and the integration :)
<seb128> dholbach? ;)
<amnesia> :)
<seb128> I would say than dholbach and the telepathy do a rocking job
<seb128> we probably have most of it packaged for edgy
<dholbach> amnesia: as clients we have gossip-telepathy and cohoba in feisty
<dholbach> gossip-telepathy works quite well at the moment and gabble (jabber) and butterfly (msn) support are good enough to use
<seb128> telepathy -> telepathy-team
<amnesia> ah ok, you just mentioned telepathy in the beginnning...will ask them then
<dholbach> the upstream developers are working like mad and audio conferencing is said to work quite good as well (I never got around to test it yet)
<dholbach> (farsight is doing that part)
<amnesia> ok will drop by then for a little testing/helping
<seb128> that's a good example of how people interested in a particular topic can group together and create a team
<seb128> team are goods too :)
<apokryphos> <Bourlotieris> QUESTION: Your top priorities for Feisty - any details about how Beryl will be implemented in it (by default)?
<dholbach> sudo apt-get install telepathy-gnome      in feisty should provide you with all that's needed
<amnesia> dholbach: cool thanks
<seb128> top priorities?
<seb128> GNOME 2.18
<seb128> compiz or beryl (not decided yet which one)
<seb128> and I would like beagle or tracker (not decided which one neither) on the desktop too
<seb128> an app to replace disks-admin would be welcome too
<amnesia> seb128: you would means one of them will be in?
<seb128> amnesia: "them" being?
<amnesia> beagle or tracker
<seb128> I would like to get one yep
<amnesia> great!
<seb128> we will likely have tracker to universe soon
<seb128> maybe next week
<dholbach> . o O { I would like to get a pony }
<seb128> I've contacted upstream this week about that
<_ion> Ignoring indexing, the possibilities from a shared metadata database with a dbus API are appealing.
<seb128> then we will ask for user feedback and see which would fit better
<seb128> tracker looks nice
<apokryphos> <meduxa> QUESTION: are you guys working on any improvement on the applications' menu for next version?
<seb128> no
<seb128> does it need improvement? ;)
<amnesia> mac-style?
<seb128> we have gnome-main-menu (aka slab), the menu from novell packaged
<seb128> and we will likely have it on the CD for feisty, but not as default one
<apokryphos> meduxa: any specific thoughts?
<seb128> maybe with a panel profile switcher app (one as been worked during SoC2006)
<seb128> which would allow to pick a standard linux layout or a windows like one
<meduxa> freedesktop rules are difficult to understand for customice the menu so
<seb128> it's on my list of things I would like to get for feisty, it'll depend on how busy I'll be though
<seb128> contributions are welcome ;)
<bhale> meduxa: that is why we have alacarte
<bhale> or whatever it is called now, simple menu editor
<meduxa> graphical interfaces for customicing are the only good choice for users
<seb128> meduxa: alacarte (menu editor) should "just work", no?
<meduxa> yes
<apokryphos> <alp> QUESTION: There are a bunch of D-Bus APIs that have been showing up, some of varying quality, and D-Bus lacks a versioning scheme (no sonames etc.). i've noticed already that supporting different API revisions is causing trouble for applications. is there a game plan for bus API versioning?
<meduxa> it does, the point is if you have alacarte stopeed from improvements or you are developing more features for it
<seb128> alp: dbus is 1.0 now
<seb128> API is stable and will not change any time soon
<meduxa> thks
<alp> (am talking about the APIs themselves, not the library implementation)
<seb128> meduxa: we are not working on it atm, if you have suggestion feel free to open feature request or mail the desktop list about them
<seb128> alp: we don't plan to do any distribution specific work on that at the moment no
<sox> QUESTION: There's a project to develop a native "SAP GUI" ( in deb  format) for Ubuntu feisty?
<apokryphos> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<seb128> 
<seb128> apokryphos: next one? ;)
<apokryphos> <amnesia> QUESTION: speaking of dbus. we definitely need dbus for volume control and totem too. are they planned/done yet?
<seb128> no
<seb128> not planned nor done
<seb128> contributions are welcome
<seb128> there is lot of such "small improvements" which would be nice
<seb128> maybe create a spec for them so it get developer time next cycle :)
<seb128> 
<apokryphos> <andresmujica> QUESTION: About apps menu, maybe at gnome is ok, but at kde is a complete mess. It needs imporvement.
<seb128> dunno about KDE
<seb128> anybody from the kubuntu team around?
<apokryphos> andresmujica: I completely agree. It looks like Kubuntu might be adopting the kickoff menu for feisty
<apokryphos> ubotu: kickoff
<ubotu> kickoff is a new KDE menu developed by SUSE. It organises items differently, has an integrated Beagle search, and been put through extensive usability testing in the Novell usability lab. See http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2283
<seb128> DesktopTeam does Ubuntu Desktop in fact
<apokryphos> there's a nice presentation of it there
<seb128> kubuntu-team does KDE
<apokryphos> <amnesia> QUESTION: mac-menu integration? there is a patched libgtk around, works alright actually. could it go in feisty? any thoughts on that?
<seb128> amnesia: no idea, I don't use mac and don't know what mac-menu looks like and dunno about that bug
<seb128> any pointer is welcome :)
<seb128> feel free to mail the desktop list about that
<apokryphos> <Bourlotieris> QUESTION: just from curiosity about how things work - by which way will the final decision be made for whether the default manager will be Beryl or Compiz?
<seb128> Bourlotieris: the TB (technical board) will make the call
<seb128> that's likely to depends on the feedback we get on them
<apokryphos> Bourlotieris: at the moment it looks like it'll most likely be on the grounds of stability
<seb128> how actively they are maintained
<seb128> and what we think about them
<seb128> I would be in favor of compiz for my part
<apokryphos> <meduxa> QUESTION: Can you describe the process from recieving a suggestion of a new feature or improvement related with usability until it is decided to include it in a new version or desestimated?
<seb128> beryl dialog scares me with its zillion of un-understable options and weird effects
<bhale> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompizOnFeisty < compiz is very well integrated today
<apokryphos> seb128: they don't plan that settings manager to be available directly to the end users
<seb128> and compiz used by other distros too, etc
<apokryphos> there's another settings manager which they're using; developed mainly by Amaranth I believe
<seb128> and looks stabler and seems to be doing what we need
<seb128> 
<apokryphos> (there's a question above, by meduxa )
<seb128> meduxa: no fixed process and we don't have an usability team atm in fact (just one usability guy)
<seb128> either discussions on the list or on bugs
<seb128> specs are probably things which work the best for non trivial changes
<seb128> for details good sense and convincing upstream or the maintainer is probably the way ;)
<apokryphos> <amnesia> QUESTION: irda support? I need to apt-get install irda-utils, enable irda in /etc/defaults, then it works. need to install irda-tray (not in ubuntu) to be able to beam files from/to my cell phone. Anything planned to make it easier?
<amnesia> ..like the bluetooth love ubuntu gets nowadays, but irda is on almost every phone nowadays
<seb128> amnesia: no, no plan from me
<seb128> simple reason: I've no irda device
<dholbach> amnesia: could you mail the motu list and see that irda-tray gets included in ubuntu?
<seb128> if you have an interest to irda and what to help you are most welcome
<amnesia> seb128: what to do to help there?
* proppy hugs dholbach
* dholbach hugs proppy back and alp too
<amnesia> dholbach: I wanted to package it today but I can do that, they do it surely better
<dholbach> amnesia: or get your package reviewed - that's cool
<dholbach> amnesia: Rock On!
<seb128> amnesia: if only archive change are required (like move packages to ubuntu-desktop), mail ubuntu-devel to describe what needs to be done and why
<seb128> if things need to be packaged or maintained, help doing the job
<amnesia> seb128: cool!
<seb128> amnesia: if you need somebody to review your package just ask on IRC
<seb128> I'm sure some MOTU or some Desktop Team people will be happy to help you on that :)
<amnesia> will do, want it to work out of the box on feisty
<seb128> rock on!
<amnesia> :)
<seb128> lot of hugs for amnesia everybody ;)
* apokryphos hugs amnesia
<apokryphos> ok, if there are no more questions we'll take a short break before the next talk, which will be "Maintaining an Ubuntu Package", by Jordan Mantha
* proppy hugs apokryphos
<amnesia> will do what I can, maybe others will follow
<apokryphos> thanks seb128 8)
<seb128> thank you for everybody for the good questions
<bhale> zogads Jordan Mantha
* proppy hugs seb128
<amnesia> seb128: thanks for being here
<Bourlotieris> Thank you, really interesting
<meduxa> nice talk, what a short hour
<seb128> good :)
<frafu> thanks
<LaserJock> bhale: now now, no need to get excited ;-)
<seb128> feel free to join #ubuntu-desktop or the desktop list at any time if you want to discuss desktop things
<rulus> thanks for your session seb128!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
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<apokryphos> gah, this topic is getting tighter all the time :P
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<bhale> oops
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<jean__> thanks
<ajmitch> yay LaserJock
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<rulus> !questions
<ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<LjL> only, "/msg ubotu logs" won't give you the -classroom specific factoid... :-\
<jean__> thanks seb128
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<apokryphos> beh
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Friday's Freshers' Day! Join #ubuntu-freshers for talks+questions| Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Maintaining an Ubuntu Package
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<LaserJock> ok, time to get started?
<apokryphos> LaserJock: sure; take it away :)
<sox> come on!
<LaserJock> Hello everybody!My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a PhD Chemistry student and Ubuntu volunteer.
<LaserJock> In Ubuntu I'm a Universe developer, a part of the Documentation Team, on the Edubuntu Council, and am just generally an Ubuntu-holic.
<LaserJock> Today I want to talk a little about what how we maintain software once it's already in our software repositories (Main, Restricted, Universe, Multiverse)
<ailean> nice to meet you - you a scot?
<LaserJock> me? now
<LaserJock> just your typical mutt American
<ailean> sorry, continue :)
<LaserJock> so far during the Open Week we've had talks on how to package
<LaserJock> how to patch packages
<LaserJock> etc.
<LaserJock> so I'm not really going to cover that so much
<LaserJock> I think there are 3 things that are important to keep in mind here:
<LaserJock> 1. Ubuntu is intimately connected to Debian
<LaserJock> 3. Ubuntu relies on thousands of "upstreams"
<LaserJock> 2. Ubuntu uses Launchpad ( http://launchpad.net ) for virtually all package maintenance
<LaserJock> Ubuntu is a Linux distro
<LaserJock> which among other things, means it usually doesn't write it's own software
<LaserJock> but instead collects other people's software (upstreams) and "glues" them together and makes sure they work right
<LaserJock> so lets look at the 3 things I've outlined above in a little more detail
<LaserJock> 1. Ubuntu is intimately connected to Debian
<LaserJock> Ubuntu is a Debian-based distro
<LaserJock> that's probably not surprising to anybody
<LaserJock> but we don't fork Debian
<LaserJock> instead at the beginning of each development cycle we take a snapshot of Debian's unstable repo
<metres> hi guys, Im trying a recompilation of my kernel, but I have problem..., I just installed Edgy on my amd64, I downloaded the source linux-2.6.19 from kernel.org, unpack it, but when I try make xconfig, I got this response : "make[1] : *** Pas de rgle pour fabriquer la cible  scripts/kconfig/.tmp_qtcheck , ncessaire pour  scripts/kconfig/qconf.o . Arrt." Do anyone have a clue ?
<LaserJock> and we spend much of the first half of the development release cycle merging those changes back into Ubuntu
<rulus> metres: #ubuntu please
<LaserJock> metres: #ubuntu is a better place to go
<metres> thanks I'LL try this
<LaserJock> ok, so the question is how do we keep track of what we've changed and what's straigh from Debian
<LaserJock> to differentiate we use a particular versioning scheme
<LaserJock> any source package that has been changed or modified in any way will give a ubuntuX version put on the end
<LaserJock> where X starts at 1 and just increments with each upload we make that keeps the same base Debian version
<LaserJock> so when we go through our merging/syncing phase at the beginning of the cycle we determine which packages were changed in the previous version
<LaserJock> and if they weren't changed, we just sync the Debian package straight over
<LaserJock> however, if there was a change a handy script called Merge-o-Matic (MoM) will attempt to merge the package in a semi automated way
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<LaserJock> the thing to note here is that *every* package that had a previous Ubuntu change has to be manually checked before it is either synced (if Debian picked up our changes and we don't need them anymore) or merged (we still need them)
<LaserJock> so just to see the scale we are taking about here are some stats for edgy:
<LaserJock> In the Main repo there are a total of 5382 source package
<LaserJock> 978 of them have ubuntuX versions and have to be manually checked
<LaserJock> in Universe there are 18656 source packages
<LaserJock> 1250 of them have ubuntuX versions
<LaserJock> so that's over 2000 packages that have to be manually checked, merged, built, and tested before being uploaded
<LaserJock> we have probably around 100 people doing this work
<LaserJock> around 80% are volunteer community members
<LaserJock> ok, let's take a question break
<bhale> < rmjb> QUESTION: If every package with an Ubuntu change needs to be manually checked, what does MoM do?
<LaserJock> MoM can make the process easier
<LaserJock> what you are looking for in a merge is what Ubuntu changes exist
<LaserJock> and why they are there
<LaserJock> so you have to look at the difference between the Ubuntu package and the Debian package it was based on
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v bhale]  by ChanServ
<LaserJock> you also have to look at what has changed since then in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> sorry Debian rather
<bhale> < andresmujica> QUESTION:  Does it means that Debian takes changes made here at ubuntu for their own packages???
<LaserJock> and then go back and make sure you only add in the Ubuntu changes to the new Debian version
<bhale> (sorry, questioner left)
<LaserJock> yes, that is correct
<LaserJock> we send all the differences we make to Debian
<bhale> as an example, Debian and Ubuntu mono teams share many members, and changes flow in 2 directions
<LaserJock> and the Debian maintainers are free to take our changes
<LaserJock> bhale: exactly
<bhale> patches are posted here in an automated fashion as well:
<LaserJock> we try to maximize cooperation and minimize divergence
<bhale> http://patches.ubuntu.com/
<LaserJock> and also on the individual package pages on packages.qa.debian.org
<bhale> < ailean> QUESTION: can you point us in the direction of some tutorials?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> there is an Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> it is shipped in both the Ubuntu and Kubuntu help systems
<apokryphos> ubotu: packaging
<ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
<LaserJock> and can also be found on help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> yeah ^^
<bhale> we have two more and I hope we can get going again
<bhale> < urbnsr> QUESTION: Are there packages that start for ubuntu only or do all packages have to come via Debian?
<LaserJock> also check out the Debian documentation at www.debian.org/devel/
<LaserJock> yes, some packages start in Ubuntu
<bhale> no, Ubuntu can get new packages, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU for submitting new ones
<LaserJock> some start completely elsewhere
<bhale> last question.
<LaserJock> the vast majority come from Debian though
<bhale> < andresmujica> QUESTION:  It seems that there' s some work duplicated at several levels, package creator, debian, and ubuntu.. any proposal or way to improve this? or is defacto way?
<LaserJock> well, in essence what we try to do in Ubuntu is take what Debian maintainers do and add on top of it
<LaserJock> not repeat it
<LaserJock> so if there's a bug that Debian should know about we forward it
<LaserJock> if we patch something that is useful for Debian we try to get it to them
<LaserJock> so the idea is we are enhancing rather then duplicating Debian's work
<LaserJock> there are efforts like utnubu (ubuntu backwords)
<LaserJock> to help make sure Ubuntu changes get back into Debian
<LaserJock> but mostly just good communication
<LaserJock> bhale: done?
<bhale> LaserJock: yes, sorry.
<LaserJock> OK, so the second item: Ubuntu relies on thousands of "upstreams"
<LaserJock> so Debian is our first upstream most of the time
<LaserJock> but they have upstreams too
<LaserJock> the original software authors
<LaserJock> and if we want our work to help the maximum number of people we need to get our changes to them
<LaserJock> also, as software develops, it doesn't do so on the same time line
<LaserJock> so we have to be aware of thousands of different projects all releasing at different times
<LaserJock> and we have to work to make sure we can produce the most stable and usable distro we can
<LaserJock> that really leads to my 3 point: Ubuntu uses Launchpad ( http://launchpad.net ) for virtually all package maintenance
<LaserJock> Launchpad is essentally a very large distro managment web app
<LaserJock> developed by Canonical (the Ubuntu sponsor company)
<LaserJock> and it includes a bug tracker (Malone), specification tracker, translation system, support tracker, etc.
<LaserJock> it also houses our archive maintainence and build structure
<LaserJock> Launchpad can sometimes be a bit confusing to use when you first get started with it
<LaserJock> so here's my #1 tip, learn how Launchpad uses URLs
<LaserJock> so you can "build" your own URL to go where you want
<LaserJock> it makes finding things pretty easy
<LaserJock> For instance, if you want to know about a particular source package use:
<LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>
<LaserJock> If you want to see all the bugs for a package just add on +bugs:
<LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>/+bugs
<LaserJock> Parts of the URL with the + in front are important, they are like modifiers to the thing that goes before it. In this case we want to see bugs for <packagename>
<LaserJock> now one of the things that makes Launchpad good for package maintainance and communication with upstream is you can link to other bug trackers
<LaserJock> for instance, right now, Launchpad can link and track bugs in Debian, Gnome, KDE, Mozilla to I believe
<LaserJock> so if somebody files a bug in Launchpad for Ubuntu
<LaserJock> and I see that Debian has reported the same bug
<LaserJock> I can link to that one and watch it's progress
<LaserJock> and be notified when it's been fixed so that I can make sure to get those fixes
<LaserJock> bhale: ok, lets take some more questions
<bhale> cool.
<bhale> this one is kind of off the wall but you can handle it
<bhale> < proppy> QUESTION: sometimes when we package for multi distribution and there is different dependencies, we supply multi control files for each distribution (for example control.dapper which differ from control.sarge), i believe this is not the correct way to do it?
<LaserJock> I love off the wall questions :-)
<bhale> I know :)
* proppy hugs LaserJock
<bhale> (now might be a good time to mention bzr!)
<LaserJock> proppy: really what we'd rather see is that difference in versioning and in a revision control
<LaserJock> another project that Canonical is supporting is the bazaar revision control system
<LaserJock> Launchpad now supports bazaar
<LaserJock> so that each Launchpad user can keep different "branches" of what they are working on
<LaserJock> you can even use a Launchpad team to control access
<LaserJock> so rather then individual control files
<LaserJock> I'd rather see a dapper branch or a sarge branch on bazaar.launchpad.net
<LaserJock> proppy: hopefully that answers your question a bit
<bhale> another choice for cooperating with debian developers is svn for your team on alioth.debian.org and make branches off of the trunk
<bhale> < gumpa> QUESTION: is Launchpad a Zope3 app?
<proppy> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> I believe so
<bhale> gumpa: the web portion, yes.
<LaserJock> ajmitch: you might now better than I
<bhale> < andresmujica> QUESTION:  About upstream bug trackers, should i search for a similar bug or report a knew one pointing to the bug reported..
<ajmitch> LaserJock: yes, it is
<LaserJock> well, it doesn't really hurt anything to file the bug in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> if you also report it in the upstream bug tracker it's nice to link to that in the Ubuntu bug report on Launchpad
<LaserJock> so we can keep track
<LaserJock> but yeah, always searching for an existing report of your bug is good
<LaserJock> it's amazing how much time we can spend just tracking down duplicates
<bhale> ok thats all for questions atm
<LaserJock> andresmujica: does that answer your question?
<andresmujica> yeap
<andresmujica> tks
<LaserJock> ok, that's a basic overview of what maintaining a package in Ubuntu involves
<LaserJock> other then the nitty gritty details of the actual packaging
<LaserJock> so I'd like to open it up for any general package maintainance questions
<maniacmusician> <proppy> QUESTION: Given that i know which dependencies differs from the debian packages, is there a way to provide theses information *in* the debian packages, to they get applied when synced from the unstable repository ?
<bhale> you can make a file called control.in
<LaserJock> so you want to make it so Ubuntu can sync even though there are some slight dependency differences
<LaserJock> ?
<bhale> that dynamically builds a control file, similar to auto*
<proppy> nice
<bhale> check the Debian Developers Guide for that
<proppy> we have access to debian unstable repository
<proppy> and locally compile and package for ubuntu
<proppy> so i want to make the sync process smooth
<LaserJock> proppy: in essence then maintaining it in Ubuntu would be filing a bug report with a debdiff, worst case
<bhale> if you are actively maintaining the package in Debian and want to make Ubuntu changes, you can contribute them to the archive via a MOTU
<bhale> (or becoming one yourself)
<bhale> sorry we have to keep going
<proppy> ok thanks
<proppy> :)
<bhale> you might want to check out #ubuntu-motu
<proppy> yep this is a bit specifiq
<bhale> they can answer any of your questions, capable folks!
<bhale> < rmjb> QUESTION: how important is the maintainter's relationship with the upstream developer? Do you need their permission before packaging thier software for Ubuntu?
<LaserJock> interesting question
<bhale> you don't need their permission of course, we deal in freely distributable software
<bhale> it is my opinion that the realtionship in general is very important
<LaserJock> If it's free software then you don't *have* to get there permission
<LaserJock> but it's rather bad form to go putting somebodies work in a distro that will go to a few million people and not tell them :-)
<LaserJock> in my experience though upstreams are pretty excited to get their work in a distro
<rmjb> I guess the least you can do it try to inform them
<LaserJock> and usually will work with you pretty well
<bhale> it would be polite to do so
<LaserJock> I maintain 2 packages in Debian
<LaserJock> and I talk with both of the upstreams fairly often
<LaserJock> and they help me by making any changes necessary to the build structure to work with debian packaging
<LaserJock> ok, I'll take the 2 last questions here and wrap it up
<bhale> < andresmujica> QUESTION:  Is any kind of public building machine or should i compile at my own server and then distribute the package?
<LaserJock> well, the answer is, not quite yet
<LaserJock> I know that Canonical is working on building personal package archives into Launchpad
<LaserJock> that will allow anybody to upload and build packages in the own personal repo space
<LaserJock> but that doesn't exist right now
<cbx33> wow
<bhale> at this time what you want is pbuilder
<bhale> docs on the wiki
<LaserJock> however, getting your package into Ubuntu does have that advantage of building your package on all the supported apps
<cbx33> pbuilder rocks
<LaserJock> *arch rather
<bhale> alright, one more.
<bhale> < cbx33> QUESTION: Where can I get more information about maintaining packages using make?  How much make knowledge is needed?
<LaserJock> well, of course you can read up on autotools stuff
<LaserJock> but in essence you don't really need to know all the details to package
<LaserJock> but the more knowledge you have the better off you'll be
<LaserJock> but it's not uncommon for programs to not use make at all
<LaserJock> for instance a lot of python packages use distutils
<LaserJock> etc.
<bhale> < LjL> QUESTION: Would that, once it exists, also allow building packages without actually having all the required -dev dependencies installed on the local machine, and/or setting up a chroot environment, and similar relatively onerous undertakings?
<apokryphos> (indeed, all of KDEis switching to cmake)
<bhale> canonical build service related ^
<LaserJock> LjL: indeed it would
<bhale> IMO the build service is not meant for testing the build of your package
<LaserJock> although it would be much better to test your packages before hand
<bhale> but building and publishing a 'canonical' copy once youve done the work
<LaserJock> bhale: right
<bhale> < somerville32> QUESTION: Can you compare and constrast Stable Update Releases and Backports?
<bhale> good question.
<LaserJock> LjL: we are getting pbuilder docs better and better so hopefully it will be less onerous
<bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<LaserJock> yes, good question
<LjL> LaserJock: that's nice to know, thanks
<bhale> STU refers to $distr-updates, critical bug fixes
<bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<LaserJock> Stable Release Updates are for very important bug fixes to existing versions
<bhale> ugh
<bhale> Bugs which may, under realistic circumstances, directly cause a security vulnerability
<bhale> Bugs which represent severe regressions from the previous release of Ubuntu
<bhale> Bugs which may, under realistic circumstances, directly cause a loss of user data
<bhale> these are the only conditions for SRU
<LaserJock> Backports on the other hand are focused on getting the latest version of a package
<LaserJock> so you will almost never see the actual version of the software in -updates change
<LaserJock> it's usually just a patch to fix a bug or regression
<LaserJock> somerville32: good enough?
<bhale> < apokryphos> QUESTION: with regard to Canonical making a build service, have they not considered using the already active/popular SUSE build service?
<LaserJock> ok, guys I'm almost out of time here
<bhale> no, the Canonical service was in works before the SusE service was announced
* kiko encourages LaserJock to take his time!
<bhale> I will call it quits on that note
<bhale> and answer anything else in -chat
<LaserJock> apokryphos: not sure, but the idea would be to combine bazaar, personal package archives, etc. all withing one system
<somerville32> LaserJock: How do you gauge severity?
<LaserJock> somerville32: that is up to the people approving updates, but generally you know a severe bug when you see it
<apokryphos> hm, yeah, bazaar will be one thing it doesn't have atm
<bhale> somerville32: the release manager makes a call based on the criteria i pasted above
<LaserJock> i.e. segfaults
<rmjb> thanks for the great session LaserJock
<LaserJock> apokryphos: they also are .rpm based and we are .deb based so that might make a difference
<cbx33> thanks LaserJock you rock as always ;)
<LaserJock> OK, thanks everybody for coming
<apokryphos> LaserJock: nope; the suse build service handles ubuntu/debian etc systems too
<LjL> thank you LaserJock
<LaserJock> apokryphos: cool
<apokryphos> thank you LaserJock, bhale :)
<rosss> Thanks!
* proppy hugs LaserJock
* proppy hugs bhale
<bhale> Claps for LaserJock
<LaserJock> NOTE: the MOTU (universe maintainers) rock hard core so if you have any further questions pop on over to #ubuntu-motu
<LaserJock> or on the ubuntu-motu mailing list on lists.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> thanks bhale
* LaserJock out
<kiko> okay
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<somerville32> Woot!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Friday's Freshers' Day! Join #ubuntu-freshers for talks+questions| Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Class discussions+questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current Session: Using Launchpad
<kiko> I'm here getting my wrists warmed up!
<somerville32> Thanks! LaserJock! :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo apokryphos LaserJock]  by ChanServ
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<kiko> thanks chanserv
<apokryphos> take it away 8)
<kiko> very well, take it away I must
<kiko> hello everyone, and welcome to the second installment of the launchpad overview as part of UbuntuOpenDay
<kiko> I'm happy to have had a great first session with a number of difficult questions
<kiko> I've posted answers to those questions to launchpad-users, our very exclusive mailing list!
<kiko> I've linked to the archives from the UbuntuOpenDay subpage for my talk, so if you were curious about any one which wasn't answered, just look there
<kiko> I'm also going to tabulate them as faq entries
<kiko> so they should be useful for a wider audience.
<kiko> in the first section I covered Launchpad in general and then bug tracking, translating and the answer tracker in Launchpad.
<kiko> I'll redo a quick overview today, and then talk about the remaining two applications: the blueprint tracker, and the bazaar branch hosting, import and introspection service
<kiko> the branch part is really my favorite but I will try and save it for last!
<kiko> so Launchpad is essentially a web service that is designed to make the work inside and between open source projects easier.
<kiko> it contemplates some features which no other online tool has really done before -- and these features are mostly related to the way projects communicate between themselves.
<kiko> for instance, Launchpad's bug tracker allows a single bug to be tracked in various different distributions, and in one or more upstream projects
<kiko> this theoretically allows Ubuntu, Debian and Redhat to all use the same bugtracker to track the status of a fix in, say, upstream Linux kernel, and in other distributions.
<kiko> the more projects using Launchpad, the better that collaboration aspect gets
<kiko> another example of where cross-project collaboration is easier in Launchpad is with translations: translations for strings used in a project are offered as potential suggestions in other contexts where the same translatable string occurs
<kiko> the context's translation review team can verify and decide whether the string is relevant or not.
<kiko> if we are making comparisons, one of Tuesday's questions asked: is Launchpad similar to Sourceforge?
<kiko> in some ways we are, and in some we aren't. we are similar in the sense that we do offer online services that you /should/ use for /your/ project
<kiko> bug tracking -- community support -- translations -- specification tracking -- code hosting
<kiko> in others, we are not so much: we don't offer mailing lists or web content hosting.
<kiko> so there's some unique aspects to both Sourceforge and Launchpad.
<kiko> so that's an overview of the web application, and I'll move on to some more specific examples inside two applications -- the specification tracker, and the code hosting service.
<kiko> be sure to ask questions about other applications if you missed tuesday's Q&A, or if you are still curious -- I'm happy to help out!
<kiko> XXX The specification tracker: blueprints.launchpad.net XXX
<kiko> One of Launchpad's applications is a specification, or 'blueprint' tracker.
<kiko> a specification is a general term used in software engineering that is essentially a document that describes something
<kiko> moving from very vague to more specific, a specification usually will describe a change to existing software, a new feature to be implemented, a modification in an existing design, or a process that a team should follow
<kiko> we use specifications a /lot/ in Launchpad and in Ubuntu
<kiko> people that were at the Australian conference last year (UDU) can remember all the specs and post-its on the wall!
<kiko> specifications are a great way of capturing history and rationale of your project
<kiko> they help answer questions like "how exactly is that supposed to be implemented"
<kiko> and also "why the hell did we decide to use a cronscript and not a trigger?!"
<kiko> launchpad offers a specification tracker which is something of a unique service
<kiko> the spec tracker essentially allows us to capture metadata related to a textual document
<kiko> it's important to point out that the document is not actually hosted in launchpad
<kiko> you can use any wiki (or other text document hosting -- even flat ascii via apache)
<kiko> launchpad just stores metadata
<kiko> this metadata allows you to track who is working on the document, who's doing the implementation, who's ok'd the document, and in what status the doc and the implementation are.
<kiko> let's look at a live example to see what I'm talking about.
<kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu
<kiko> this is the listing of specifications for Ubuntu
<kiko> you'll see that the listing is ordered by priority (meaning that somebody in project management has made an explicit decision as to what is more important)
<kiko> and that the spefication has a name and two statuses
<kiko> the "definition" status describes the state of the document itself
<kiko> the "delivery" status describes the status of the feature
<kiko> in the example Ubuntu URL
<kiko> you'll see that Tollef is assigned to the top essential priority specification -- network-roaming.
<kiko> let's take a closer look at that specification so you can see the metadata for yourself!
<kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/network-roaming
<kiko> first, you'll see on the right-hand side of the page a set of attributes related to the specification
<kiko> and that in this case the implementation of the spec has not even started yet!
<kiko> the specification itself is approved,  and it's been accepted for feisty, so tollef should get busy soon to get it in <wink>
<kiko> there's a dependency tree in the page content
<kiko> when a spec depends on another, it is rendered graphically
<kiko> (this feature was incidentally a gift from sabdfl himself)
<kiko> so in this case, Kubuntu only gets networking if tollef manages to deliver network-roaming in time
<kiko> the specification tracker is pretty simple to use
<kiko> you can see how to register new specs and edit it using our staging server.. if I can get a working URL to it ;-)
<kiko> the staging server is a box which holds an exact copy of the production database
<kiko> but which allows changing data without concern -- the database is wiped and restored nightly
<kiko> To add a new spec to Ubuntu on staging, use https://staging.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+addspec
<kiko> you'll see that it allows you to capture metadata, in particular a specification URL
<kiko> that URL is the only link to the document -- which is why I pointed out it could be pretty much anything hosted anywhere.
<kiko> the specification tracker has a number of features that are not immediately apparent
<kiko> for instance, the dependency graph and prioritization allow a suggested to be automatically built from your specifications; the roadmap for ubuntu is at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+roadmap
<kiko> the spec tracker also includes support for managing team sprints
<kiko> where the sprints are essentially activities where people develop the specifications that will be implemented
<kiko> (in Canonical, we essentially use sprints to capture specifications because we have little face-time together, being a distributed company, and capturing discussions and ideas in documents is a great way to record this historically)
<kiko> to see sprints at the latest developer summit for Ubuntu, for instance:
<kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv
<kiko> err -- I meant specs at the latest summit. blame hunger!
<kiko> anyway, you can see there the overview of specs discussed there.
<kiko> you can use the sprint feature to manage your own sprints, and we can even get you nicely formatted schedules that ensure that all the discussions you want to have occur
<kiko> that's a whirlwind view of the Launchpad blueprints application, and feel free to ask away if there are bits I was unclear about or omitted
<kiko> let's move on to my favorite app!
<bhale> there are some off topic questions about LP
<kiko> XXX Launchpad code XXX
<kiko> yeah, I can see them
<kiko> okay, let's be cool and answer them!
<kiko> <vyoman> are we supposed to login into the staging server?
<kiko> yes. the staging server is an exact replica of the production server -- so much that you should log in to it to actually change it. your launchpad credentials will be the same as on production.
<vyoman> the _addspec is asking for a login <s>
<kiko> right -- just use your launchpad account.
<kiko> <mruiz> QUESTION: hello kiko, I'm the ubuntu-cl team admin; when mass email will be enabled? (to contact all team members and coordinate)
<kiko> so this is a question about a feature in which Launchpad teams would have an externally visible email address
<kiko> currently, Launchpad teams are used to organize people into arbitrary groups
<kiko> Launchpad can email these groups directly, and you've seen this in action for instance in bugs, where team subscribers all get notified of bug changes.
<kiko> there is currently, however, no way to externally email a team
<mruiz> kiko: but many LoCo Teams use LP, and sign as teams.
<kiko> right.
<kiko> so mruiz for instance would like to be able to contact his team through a specified email address and have the message relayed to the team members.
<kiko> we have a plan for this feature but it hasn't been a priority as of now
<mruiz> ok, thanks
<kiko> I've written down your request to bump this one up
<kiko> (and I encourage other people that want features implemented to please let me know so I can take your requests into account when deciding what needs to be done next!)
<kiko> all right
<kiko> back on track now:
<kiko> XXX Launchpad code XXX
<kiko> so some of you may be familiar with the most amazing VCS that has been under development for the past 2 years
<kiko> that's Bazaar (bazaar-vcs.org) in case you were wondering!
<kiko> bazaar is a decentralized (ddaa beat me until I agreed to say that) revision control system
<kiko> so it has a similar pattern of working to git, darcs, arch, monotone, mercurial and (should I say it?) bitkeeper!
<kiko> in particular, each developer has his own tree with history and is able to do commits to his local tree and see changes without needing to hit a central server
<kiko> in this model, developers usually move code between each other and onto a specific branch which is maintained as a mainline
<kiko> that's the 5000km view of decentralized RCS
<kiko> Bazaar is an interesting new VCS, designed to be very simple, usable and fast
<kiko> it's written in Python and #bzr is the place to go to learn more about the tool itself
<kiko> <bhale> QUESTION: does every developer run his own database and or web server?
<kiko> <bhale> or the server config is dynamic enough to handle arbitrary branching
<kiko> bhale, you tricked me into an offtopic question!
<bhale> :P
<kiko> I'll answer it anyway.
<kiko> each launchpad developer runs his own database and web server
<kiko> I'm not sure what you meant about arbitrary branching, bhale
<kiko> but it's impractical to depend on a central server if you're for instance developing offline
<bhale> I will explain to you offline, it is unimportant to the discussion at hand
<kiko> it also places a lot of stress on that server because everybody at some point wants to hit the database to fetch a list of whatnot
<kiko> sure.
<kiko> so coming back to Bazaar
<kiko> Launchpad is a great match for Bazaar in a number of ways
<kiko> and I'll try enumerating some of the ways that I find most interesting and useful
<kiko> first, Launchpad offers you a free Bazaar branch hosting service
<kiko> anyone with a Launchpad account can push their branches onto the Launchpad supermirror
<kiko> the supermirror is essentially an open, global code repository
<kiko> let me dig out a tutorial so you can read more about this
<kiko> http://ddaa.net/blog/launchpad/bzr-hosting
<kiko> there you go
<kiko> essentially, if you use bzr, you can host your project's sourcecode on Launchpad
<kiko> and have your developers collaborate on that code.
<kiko> you can even have shared branches, to which all of your team can commit:
<kiko> http://blogs.gnome.org/view/jamesh/2006/08/17/1
<kiko> jamesh tells us all about that (and western australia) in his blog entry
<kiko> the supermirror is a great service, and I expect a lot of projects to host their main lines off it
<kiko> there's no setup cost, and anyone can bzr branch it trivially.
<kiko> okay
<kiko> a second good example of Launchpad supporting bazaar
<kiko> is in the VCS imports service
<kiko> what are VCS imports?
<kiko> essentially, I wish everybody in the world used Bazaar
<kiko> unfortunately, there are historical reasons why this isn't the case YET
<kiko> for those projects that use CVS and Subversion, how do we facilitate hackers using Bazaar to work?
<kiko> answer: we host continuous imports of upstream version control into Bazaar
<kiko> this is a really interesting service
<kiko> say your upstream project uses CVS
<kiko> say it's Bugzilla (I am so biased!)
<kiko> and you want to hack on it using bazaar
<kiko> well, easy -- the bugzilla project has an import already set up in Launchpad!
<kiko> if you visit
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/products/bugzilla
<kiko> you'll notice that there's a branch registered in the bottom-most right-hand-side box
<kiko> if you visit the branch registered there:
<kiko> https://launchpad.net/people/vcs-imports/+branch/bugzilla/main
<kiko> you'll notice that it lists all recent revisions committed to upstream bugzilla
<kiko> if you want to hack on bugzilla a bit
<kiko> or customize it locally while still preserving history
<kiko> just do
<kiko> bzr branch launchpad.net/products/bugzilla
<kiko> and (after some 10 minutes or so) you'll have a branch containing the full history of the bugzilla project
<kiko> imported into a conveniently packaged Bazaar branch
<kiko> you can hack away locally
<kiko> and when upstream changes, we import the changes into Launchpad, and you can simply issue "bzr merge" to get the new changes and merge it into your now-modified tree
<kiko> this is a great way to start using Bazaar even through the upstream project hasn't decided to switch yet.
<kiko> there are over 500 projects being imported continously into Launchpad
<kiko> bugzilla is just one. gaim is another. be sure to register your own favorite projects today, and let's get VCS imports available to the mases.
<kiko> there are yet other areas that Bazaar and Launchpad fit in well together
<kiko> you can assign Bazaar branches to Launchpad bugs
<kiko> when the branch status changes, the bug recipients are notified
<kiko> and the next step in that integration is picking up commit log messages and automatically marking bugs closed.
<kiko> specifications can also have branches assigned to them
<kiko> so you can keep close tabs on how the code that others are working on is progressing
<kiko> let me handle some questions!
<kiko> <vyoman> QUESTION how do you commit to bazaar?
<kiko> in bazaar, everybody has their own branch.
<kiko> what happens is that you (generally) create your own branch based on another one
<kiko> so, most projects organize their work around a branch which is made publically available, and which is conventioned the "mainline"
<kiko> the pattern of use is that all developers branch off this mainline
<kiko> do their own work
<kiko> merge in new changes from mainline periodically
<kiko> and when their work is ready for distribution
<kiko> they merge /their work/ into the mainline
<kiko> the mainline from that point on contains the full history of that branch that they developed locally.
<kiko> so, to answer your question directly
<kiko> bzr branch launchpad.net/products/gaim # create a new bazaar branch of gaim
<kiko> cd gaim
<kiko> vi Makefile # hack away
<kiko> bzr commit
<kiko> will pop up an editor window to allow you to enter a description of your change
<kiko> at that point you will have one local change to your branch of gaim
<kiko> you can use bzr merge to pick up new changes in gaim as they come along
<kiko> which makes maintaining a long-lived branch a lot easier.
<kiko> vyoman, let me know if that answered your question later
<kiko> <gumpa> QUESTION: it sounds to me like Launchpad hosts the trunk, each developer has their own branch. Is this correct?
<kiko> gumpa, essentially, Launchpad can host both trunk and developer branches.
<kiko> the thing is, anybody can host any branch on Launchpad
<kiko> if you are a developer, you can hack on your branch locally, and then publish ("push") it to the world via Launchpad
<kiko> bazaar makes it very easy to create and maintain remote copies of your branch
<kiko> exactly for this functionality
<kiko> so you could, for instance, "bzr push" your branch to your own location up on the supermirror
<kiko> again, read more about this on http://ddaa.net/blog/launchpad/bzr-hosting
<kiko> <silwol> QUESTION: What do the commit messages have to look like in order for launchpad to recognize that a bug was closed?
<kiko> silwol, very good question -- we haven't decided yet. I'd love to get your opinion on the matter in #launchpad or on launchpad-users
<kiko> this feature is upcoming and I think it'll be a really neat one
<kiko> so be sure to ping me about it.
<kiko> getting back to perhaps a half-answered question, gumpa, essentially, the "trunk" is a convention.
<kiko> any developer can do the job of merging other people's work and offering a trunk for the project.
<kiko> many projects work like Linus does for Linux -- pulling people's changes in and offering them reviewed and merged as a mainline trunk.
<kiko> but all branches are technically alike. hopefully that finished answering your question.
<kiko> <paran> QUESTION: Are there any way to use Bazaar to send your work back upstream when you use a bazaar branch from VCS imports?
<kiko> paran, not yet! that's a really good observation -- you need to produce diffs and communicate directly with upstream to get it submitted.
<kiko> you can work with upstream to get them to use certain Launchpad features to make the integration easier (for instance, the bug tracker, since you could pick out branches from bugs)
<kiko> and you can offer upstream with the address of your bazaar branch to make it easy for them to pull in your changes.
<kiko> there is a planned but not yet scheduled feature that would simplify this for at least Subversion-hosted projects
<kiko> but it's a non-trivial endeavour and I've been suffering over that project of late.
<kiko> well, wow, my hour is already up!
<kiko> (I do talk a lot as you have realized by now)
<kiko> if you have any further questions, /please/ drop by #launchpad and let me know
<kiko> suggestions are equally appreciated
<kiko> I'll post a rehash of questions to launchpad-users tomorrow so people that missed out on them can check them out
<kiko> feel free to email me directly (kiko@canonical.com) or via launchpad-users ()https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
<kiko> )
<kiko> I'll be happy to follow up
<kiko> thanks for being here and picking up all these electrons I'm sending out
<kiko> I wish everybody a nice thursday evening and see you on #launchpad
* kiko waves
<Bourlotieris> Thank you kiko
<kiko> most welcome
<nate599> sorry if this seems stupid but is this the "using launchpad" discussion
<kiko> it was, nate599 :)
<nate599> just thought i'd try and get used to an IRC thing
<nate599> sweet
<kiko> you missed it by an hour!
<nate599> nah. was trying for freshers tomoz
<kiko> let me get you a link to the logs
<apokryphos> thanks kiko; interesting stuff 8)
<silwol> thanx a lot
<nate599> but never used IRC before so thought to try before hand
<kiko> thanks apokryphos, silwol
<kiko> IRC is pretty neat
<vyoman> thanks kiko
<kiko> enjoy vyoman
<kiko> nate599, it definitely beats any other IM medium for doing Real Work
<apokryphos> nate599: well, welcome :). IRC freshers' day on tomorrow in #ubuntu-freshers
<LaserJock> thanks kiko, lots of cool info
<apokryphos> hindering it, too ;-)
<kiko> you're welcome LaserJock, happy you liked it
<gumpa> thx, got me excited
<kiko> gumpa, yeah, lots of cool things coming up
<nate599> am sure i will get used to it
<kiko> okay let me rest my wrists a bit
<apokryphos> nate599: support in #ubuntu and any other idle-talk in #ubuntu-offtopic. Join  us :)
<kiko> whew!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
<apokryphos> Ok, that concludes the talks for today.
<apokryphos> Tomorrow is Freshers' day: please feel free to come in with any questions. There'll be members from the community there all day
<apokryphos> That will all go on in #ubuntu-freshers, and there'll be no formal talks in here tomorrow
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs |  Friday is Freshers' Day! Join #ubuntu-freshers for questions and talk
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo apokryphos kiko-afk]  by apokryphos
<weebit> what is Freshers' Day?
<apokryphos> just a day where community members can answer all and any questions you have
<weebit> oh
<maniacmusician> it probably won't be as technically oriented, right?
<apokryphos> technical questions are welcome
<weebit> I just ordered my cds for ubuntu
<kiko-afk> ubuntu is better than hydrogenated vegetable oil I hear
<weebit> I could not find a link of supported hardware so i thought i would just hold my breath and pray the cd has the extra cd for the live distro
<apokryphos> there's a few lists around
<apokryphos> ubotu: hardware
<ubotu> For lists of supported hardware on Ubuntu see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport
<maniacmusician> weebit: great! if you have any questions or problems, make sure you ask questions in the forums or in irc.
<kiko-afk> weebit, the brave are often rewarded!
<maniacmusician> weebit: that list is good, but if your hardware is not on there, that doesn't mean it is not supported. Also, I don't know how updated that list really is
<weebit> I have a older distro of the os but never used it on this box I used mandrake on it I got the cd of ubuntu before and it had a live distro that i used on it also
<weebit> but i used it on my old box not the newer one i have
<apokryphos> maniacmusician: technical questions, as in, ones about Ubuntu. It won't really be for support; #ubuntu for that.
<weebit> I have a hp which is the old box and a dell demension 4600 with improvements
<_MMA_> "i would just hold my breath and pray the cd has the extra cd for the live distro" Ship-It only does the Live disk right?
<apokryphos> desktop CD, yes.
<maniacmusician> apokryphos: thanks. I wasn't really planning on asking, I'm not really a fresher, but I was curious. But what I really meant was, for example, people were asking very complicated questions about packaging and launchpad, etc, today, and freshers day probably wont have too much of that
<apokryphos> it's directly orientated to questions about getting involved in the community; but other concerns about Ubuntu can be echoed, sure.
<maniacmusician> weebit: i'm pretty sure dell's are a safe bet with Ubuntu. not sure about your "improvements" however.
<weebit> I just upped the hardware they was putting onboard parts and i didnt want onboard parts
<weebit> so i got the sound blaster live and the nvidia
<weebit> then got dsl and that added a modem
<maniacmusician> cool. (we probably shouldn't be chatting in here) good luck with your installation, hope all goes well. Make sure to ask questions, can't figure out everything by yourself :)
<piki_> clear
<stani> is there somewhere a kubuntu feisty vmware image available for download?
<maniacmusician> I don't think there are any feisty images around. you could just grab an edgy one and upgrade. there's really not too much that's different at this point, so it woudn't be too bad
<Blanco> leave
<Blanco> quit
<Corbeaux> you need a /
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-01
<graham_100> i have no clue how to use some parts of ubuntu  can somebody help me??
<graham_100> please
<andrew> graham_100: #ubuntu
<graham_100> andrew been in there not helping me
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: Perhaps - what parts?  (#ubuntu is good for general stuff usually, but depending what you need maybe we can take it here)
<graham_100> tonyyarusso i need to know how to use a second hard drive mainly on ubuntu
<graham_100> installed formatted and partitioned but i cant do anything with it
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: Is it mounted?
<graham_100> it says so
<tonyyarusso> Describe what your process is and what happens.
<graham_100> i just checked and it is mounted definately
<graham_100> i open the drive by double click
<graham_100> and once in i can't creat save or do anything with it
<graham_100> which i find strange
<graham_100> it is partitioned as ext2
<tonyyarusso> Okay, my first guess is it's a permissions issue.
<tonyyarusso> It sounds like you don't have write permissions.
<graham_100> oh is that fixable?
<tonyyarusso> Definitely.
<tonyyarusso> As long as we can make sure that's what's going on.
<graham_100> ok how do i do that??
<tonyyarusso> We can check in the GUI, but frankly it's easier on a command line - is that okay?
<graham_100> i know some basics not that though lol
<graham_100> i can do terminal
<tonyyarusso> cool
<tonyyarusso> 'ls -l /media/newdrive' , or whatever the path to the drive is.
<graham_100> is the path to drive the hdb1??
<tonyyarusso> Whereever it's mounted.
<tonyyarusso> hdb1 is the device, you need the mounted path.
<graham_100> tells me ls invalid option
<tonyyarusso> It's l and in Luxemburg in both cases, by the way, not a one.
<graham_100> mounted path would be computer:///??
<graham_100> so hdbl??
<graham_100> 37.3 GB Volume: hdb1 that is what it says it is
<graham_100> sorry if i sound so thick
<tonyyarusso> Did you mount it using a mount command, gui, or fstab?
<graham_100> i think i did it with the right click optiion
<graham_100> `right click`  `mount device`
<tonyyarusso> Ah, okay.
<tonyyarusso> Oh!
<tonyyarusso> 'cat /etc/mtab'
<tonyyarusso> I think that will tell us something useful.
<graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ cat /etc/mtab
<graham_100> /dev/hda1 / ext3 rw,errors=remount-ro 0 0
<graham_100> proc /proc proc rw 0 0
<graham_100> /sys /sys sysfs rw 0 0
<graham_100> varrun /var/run tmpfs rw 0 0
<graham_100> varlock /var/lock tmpfs rw 0 0
<graham_100> procbususb /proc/bus/usb usbfs rw 0 0
<graham_100> udev /dev tmpfs rw 0 0
<graham_100> devpts /dev/pts devpts rw,gid=5,mode=620 0 0
<graham_100> devshm /dev/shm tmpfs rw 0 0
<graham_100> lrm /lib/modules/2.6.15-27-386/volatile tmpfs rw 0 0
<graham_100> /dev/hdb1 /media/hdb1 ext2 rw 0 0
<graham_100> sorry if i pasted to much
<graham_100> it's that bit on the last line about second drive yes??
<tonyyarusso> Correct.
<tonyyarusso> So, 'ls -l /media/hdb1'
<graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ ls -l /media/hdb1
<graham_100> total 48
<graham_100> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 49152 2006-11-28 01:12 lost+found
<graham_100> what is that telling me ?
<graham_100> it has a file in there called lost+found
<cafuego_> no, that's a directory
<cafuego_> it should be empty
<graham_100> lost+found is empty
<tonyyarusso> Good
<tonyyarusso> Oh hey, we actually need the parent of that don't we?
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: 'ls -l /media'
<tonyyarusso> My bad
<maniacmusician> well it's safe to assume from that output that root owns the entire drive
<cafuego_> lost+found is where damaged files are dumped by fsck, if the filesystem is damaged by an unclean unmount.
<maniacmusician> because graham hasn't made any changes there yet
<maniacmusician> so he needs to make himself the owner of /media/hdb1
<graham_100> well the computer name is my g/f name  "kelly"
<tonyyarusso> maniacmusician: Not necessarily the owner - just have at least +w set
<maniacmusician> tonyyarusso: yeah true. I guess i'm just in the habit of doing that with my drives :)
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: If I remember my mount syntax (debatable) you need to add 'user' to the "options" portion.
<graham_100> oooh how do we do that bit?
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: If you just want a one-time fix, you can use sudo with chown or chmod (your choice)
<graham_100> is that straight forward way then?
<maniacmusician> or if you prefer gui, you can do a "gksudo nautilus" and use nautilus to modify the permissions
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: 'gksu gedit /etc/fstab'.  Find the line in there for this drive, and note the column headings - lloking for option.
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: Change it from just defaults to defaults,user
<tonyyarusso> (SOmeone correct me if I'm wrong)
<maniacmusician> sounds okay.
<tonyyarusso> I know there's also a "users" option, which I get confused with "user"
<graham_100> i have fstab open now
<tonyyarusso> good
<tonyyarusso> See a line for this drive?
<maniacmusician> Common for  all  types
<graham_100> would that be it?
<maniacmusician>        of  file  system  are  the options noauto (do not mount when "mount -a" is given, e.g., at boot time), user (allow a user to mount), and owner (allow device
<maniacmusician>        owner to mount)
<maniacmusician> *oops*
<graham_100> # /etc/fstab: static file system information.
<graham_100> #
<graham_100> # <file system> <mount point>   <type>  <options>       <dump>  <pass>
<graham_100> proc            /proc           proc    defaults        0       0
<graham_100> /dev/hda1       /               ext3    defaults,errors=remount-ro 0       1
<graham_100> /dev/hdb1       /media/hdb1     ext2    defaults        0       2
<graham_100> /dev/hda5       none            swap    sw              0       0
<graham_100> /dev/hdc        /media/cdrom0   udf,iso9660 user,noauto     0       0
<graham_100> is all that is there
<tonyyarusso> Great
<graham_100> is that good or bad??
<tonyyarusso> /dev/hdb1       /media/hdb1     ext2    defaults        0       2 is the line in question
<tonyyarusso> Good
<graham_100> right i see that
<tonyyarusso> Just make "defaults" "defaults,user"
<tonyyarusso> Save, and exit
<graham_100> now i have to change it right??
<tonyyarusso> yep
<graham_100> changed how do i save it?
<tonyyarusso> Then unmount and remount the drive for the new settings to take effect, and you should be all set.
<tonyyarusso> Did you open in gedit?
<tonyyarusso> Big ol' save button.
<tonyyarusso> In nano, Ctrl-O
<graham_100> yeah i guess
<graham_100> *fstab (/etc) - gedit is the header on window
<tonyyarusso> righto
<graham_100> so just ctrl-o now to save??
<graham_100> :) think i am learning
<tonyyarusso> That was for a different editor.
<mdz> graham_100: cilck the icon with the word 'save' under it
<mdz> click, even
<tonyyarusso> Ctrl-S, or the big save button
<graham_100> got it :)
<graham_100> now unmount    remount to see if it works??
<maniacmusician> a simple sudo mount -a will do the job
<graham_100> but i just tried that and because it's me unable to unmount the drive lol
<maniacmusician> "sudo mount -a"
<graham_100> sudo mount -a didn't appear to do anything let me just check
<maniacmusician> what it does is it remounts all the drives, and applies all changes made in the /etc/fstab file
<maniacmusician> so it just applied the permission changes
<maniacmusician> you should be able to write to the drive now
<graham_100> nope made no difference how do i unmount now???
<graham_100> for some reason i can't get it to do these things lol
<graham_100> umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1
<tonyyarusso> Use sudo
<graham_100> that is what it tells me
<maniacmusician> sudo umount
<maniacmusician> tonyyarusso: also, he was using unmount instead of umount
<maniacmusician> err wait.
<maniacmusician> he was using nautilus lol
<tonyyarusso> That would do it too
<graham_100> now sudo -a mount to remount?
<tonyyarusso> sudo mount -a
<graham_100> aargh didn't work ! how do you guys not get stressed with this??
<graham_100> :) this is problem with using windows 15 years then going to linux i guess
<graham_100> so where do i begin now?
<maniacmusician> I'm guessing user was just the wrong option.
<maniacmusician> what I would do (because it's easiest for me) is make yourself the owner of the whole drive.
<graham_100> could i have done something wrong with the partition and format?
<graham_100> how do i do that with the owner ??
<maniacmusician> I'm not familiar with the command line way to do it
<tonyyarusso> sudo chown graham:graham, if graham is your user name
<tonyyarusso> Actually, make it chown -R
<maniacmusician> and add the location of the drive, too
<tonyyarusso> sudo chown -R graham:graham /media/hdb1
<maniacmusician> and actually, the username is kelly
<tonyyarusso> right
<maniacmusician> so sudo chown -R kelly:kelly /media/hdb1
<graham_100> ok so kelly being the user name of pc      sudo chown -R kelly:kelly/media/hdb1??
<Corbeaux> uu need a space there somewhere
<maniacmusician> make sure you leave a space between kelly and the path to the file
<maniacmusician> path to the drive*
<graham_100> file owner is still root
<graham_100> can't seem to do this
<graham_100> isn't there another way to do this?
<tonyyarusso> Pastebin your terminal
<Corbeaux> is the extra drive empty?
<graham_100> the extra drive is empty but formatted
<Corbeaux> the chown command should have worked
<graham_100> umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1
<tonyyarusso> That's what sudo is for
<Corbeaux> you need to put sudo in front your command to do it as root
<graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ sudo chown -R kelly /media/hdb1
<graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1
<Corbeaux> kinda like in windows where it asks you for administrator password to do some things, in linux use sudo
<graham_100> that is my terminal view at the moment
<maniacmusician> why do you have that pasted into the terminal?
<Corbeaux> do this: cat /etc/fstab
<Corbeaux> paste the results here
<maniacmusician> Corbeaux: I think he just did the chown command wrong
<tonyyarusso> And it really should be kelly:kelly, not just one kelly
<graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ cat /etc/fstab
<graham_100> # /etc/fstab: static file system information.
<graham_100> #
<graham_100> # <file system> <mount point>   <type>  <options>       <dump>  <pass>
<graham_100> proc            /proc           proc    defaults        0       0
<graham_100> /dev/hda1       /               ext3    defaults,errors=remount-ro 0       1
<graham_100> /dev/hdb1       /media/hdb1     ext2    defaults,user        0       2
<graham_100> /dev/hda5       none            swap    sw              0       0
<graham_100> /dev/hdc        /media/cdrom0   udf,iso9660 user,noauto     0       0
<graham_100> i just spotted i have an error on main drive with the o/s on it
<tonyyarusso> What's that?
<maniacmusician> alright, i'm outta here. graham_100: the command is "sudo chown -R kelly:kelly /media/hdb1" just copy and paste it into the terminal. ciao, everyone
<tonyyarusso> By maniacmusician
<tonyyarusso> *bye
<Corbeaux> l8
<graham_100> *bye*
<graham_100> that didn't do anything that line of command just then
<Corbeaux> you copied and pasted it?
<Corbeaux> sudo chown -R kelly:kelly /media/hdb1
<tonyyarusso> Oh!
<Corbeaux> then do : ls -l /media/hdb*
<tonyyarusso> graham_100: "didn't do anything" - in Linux, no output means it works.  It assumes it will work, and tells you if it doesn't, unlike Windows, which assumes it will fail and gets all excited when it can do something.
<Corbeaux> lol
<Corbeaux> is xgl installed as the default desktop in the new ubuntu?
<kh> 1
<tonyyarusso> Corbeaux: aiglx, not xgl - still under discussion
<tonyyarusso> kh: 2
<Corbeaux> k
<Corbeaux> hey graham
<graham_100> it worked :)
<Corbeaux> ls -l /media/hdb*
<Corbeaux> ah ok
<graham_100> thankyou all whom helped with that problem
<Corbeaux> cool :)
<tonyyarusso> awesome
<graham_100> anyone know anything on wireless cards?
<graham_100> i know i need ndiswrapper and thats as far as i have been
<graham_100> *try to write down what i learn*
<graham_100> :)
<Corbeaux> sorry, never used wireless. Don't even have ubuntu installed, just here lurking for the first time since someone said it was cool somewhere
<tonyyarusso> I can't help you with ndiswrapper, but I can recommend creating a "stuff I learned" folder and copying all of these sorts of conversations into it.
<tonyyarusso> Corbeaux: haha!
<tonyyarusso> That amuses me for some reason
<Corbeaux> it was on a LUG list :p
<Corbeaux> will ubuntu's gui run ok in a virtual machine? I saw a video of the XGL desktop on youtube and got renewed interest in it. Which is in itself a paradox since initially, i hated it due to it's lack of a fullscreen text mode
<graham_100> can you get belkin cards to work on ubuntu??  mine is recognised but says "belkin unknown 700e"
<maniacmusician> graham_100:  i have some experience with ndiswrapper. it's a pain in the ass though.
<maniacmusician> the first thing I'd recommend is using these two pages http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/index.php/Installation and http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/index.php/List  as they helped me a lot. But a new user like you may find himself in over his head with that
<graham_100> i think that may be the case
<maniacmusician> heh I guess I could walk you through it. are you trying to install it right now?
<graham_100> i have used ndiswrapper before but it caused problems on startup, just got stuck at configuring hardware and i had to re-install
<graham_100> i am wanting to get it working asap yeah :)
<maniacmusician> well first you start with the command "lspci". Find the line that your card is on, and copy&paste the number in front of it.
<graham_100> 0000:00:0b.0 Network controller: RaLink: Unknown device 0301
<graham_100> i think that is it?
<maniacmusician> you said the card was belkin...that looks like the manufacturer is RaLink
<maniacmusician> Just post the entire output.
<graham_100> it is a belkin wireless g desktop f5d7000uk ver 6000uk
<Corbeaux> lspci |grep elkin
<graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ lspci
<graham_100> 0000:00:00.0 Host bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  730 Host (rev 02)
<graham_100> 0000:00:00.1 IDE interface: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  5513 [IDE]  (rev d0)0000:00:01.0 ISA bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  SiS85C503/5513 (LPC Bridge)
<graham_100> 0000:00:01.1 Ethernet controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  SiS900 PCI Fast Ethernet (rev 82)
<graham_100> 0000:00:01.2 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  USB 1.0 Controller (rev 07)
<graham_100> 0000:00:01.3 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  USB 1.0 Controller (rev 07)
<graham_100> 0000:00:01.4 Multimedia audio controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  SiS PCI Audio Accelerator (rev 02)
<graham_100> 0000:00:02.0 PCI bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  Virtual PCI-to-PCI bridge (AGP)
<graham_100> 0000:00:0b.0 Network controller: RaLink: Unknown device 0301
<graham_100> 0000:01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  630/730 PCI/AGP VGA Display Adapter (rev 31)
<Corbeaux> belkin card with ralink chipset?
<maniacmusician> must be
<graham_100> that is what i am thinking
<graham_100> i did something earlier and is said belkin unknown device 700e
<maniacmusician> graham_100:  now do a "lspci -n". copy and paste the line with "0000:00:0b.0" in front of it
<graham_100> 0000:00:0b.0 0280: 1814:0301
<graham_100> does that say what chipset it has?
<maniacmusician> Card: Linksys #[WMP54G v4.1] , 54mbps -- [link here|List#WMP54G v4.1] , Chipset: Ralink RT61
<maniacmusician> the chipset part is all that matters.
<graham_100> so i have a lynksys card in principle?
<maniacmusician> you have a Ralink chipset. Belkin just buys them from RaLink and uses them in its cards
<maniacmusician> it also uses broadcom chipsets a lot.
<graham_100> ah i see so i should be able to get it to work then on this basis?
<maniacmusician> well I'm trying to find the driver. It says that it's provided on the RaLink website.
<Corbeaux> just a note graham, most hardware is created by just a few manufacturers then rebranded to hell and back by others so you will probably see this again with a belkin card that somehow gets id'ed as linksys. The chipset is all that matters and in this case, it seems to be ralink
<graham_100> so i need to get ndiswrapper again and install apropriate ralink driver??
<graham_100> if i use the ralink rt61 driver will it work?
<maniacmusician> yes, you have to have ndiswrapper installed. "sudo aptitude install ndiswrapper-utils"
<maniacmusician> yes it should. Trying to find it right now though.
<graham_100> some reason i dont see ndiswrapper in my menus this time
<maniacmusician> it's a command line app, so you shouldn't. to get a gui for it, I think you'd install ndiswrapper-gtk
<maniacmusician> but actually
<maniacmusician> it seems that there are actually linux drivers for this chipset!
<maniacmusician> http://www.ralinktech.com/supp-1.htm
<almeida> #kde
<graham_100> cool
<graham_100> i have problem on my system with wine now hang on
<maniacmusician> but they will require compiling and that's something I'm not very experienced with. should probably get on the forums if you need help with it
<maniacmusician> unless Corbeaux feels like doing it (being from a non-ubuntu distro, he's probably more used to compiling)
<maniacmusician> I can tell you however that you will need to have your kernel headers installed and the correct gcc
<graham_100> now that is where i will be totaly lost
<maniacmusician> :) yes, it's complicated. I recommend getting on to http://ubuntuforums.org and starting a thread in the general help section
<maniacmusician> as I said, your drivers are located at http://www.ralinktech.com/supp-1.htm and you have the RT61 chipset. you need to have your kernel headers and the proper version of gcc installed
<graham_100> well at least we have an idea of what the chipset is on the card and i have a loation of the drivers
<maniacmusician> yes. there is also a readme file, but that'll be over your head to, its very technical
<maniacmusician> I just downloaded the driver, and it also comes with a WPA supplicant, so that's good news for you
<graham_100> i have noticed me being single track minded with windows has made linux difficult to learn for me
<maniacmusician> yeah, you'll notice that a lot in the coming months if you decide to continue with linux
<graham_100> what is a wpa suplicant?
<maniacmusician> it's an extra thing that allows you to use WPA encryption on your card. This often doesn't work for people, but your driver supports it, so it's a big plus
<graham_100> deffinately going to keep linux it's loads more stable than windows that i have noticed
<graham_100> i guess it's a good card i have then
<graham_100> :)
<maniacmusician> but my advice on getting comfortable with linux is to try and use the command line as much as possible, as it forces you to learn faster. Also, whenever people tell you to run commands or do something, make sure you ask questions about what you're doing, so that you understand it, and what's actually going on with your system as you do it.
<maniacmusician> the forums that I mentioned are an excellent place for getting help and learning stuff
<graham_100> that's a thing i havn't been doing, i do write things down as much as i can though
<graham_100> maybe someday i will help others like me
<maniacmusician> yeah, that's good. You'll find that the more common commands, you'll just memorize them, because of how often you use them
<maniacmusician> Oh, I'm sure you will. I've only been using linux for 4 or 5 months
<maniacmusician> (I tried it last year for a bit, but it was too hard, and I gave it up, went back to windows. Then this year, came back, stuck with it, and got rid of my windows partition too)
<graham_100> i jumped in the deep end got fed up with g/f loosing all her work with windows crashing and got rid all together
<graham_100> lol
<maniacmusician> haha great, it will force you to learn a lot faster.
<graham_100> definately g/f is learning it all faster than me lol
<maniacmusician> well thats good
<Corbeaux> girls are usually more intelligent than us guys
<Corbeaux> or they argue until we say so
<Corbeaux> i'm a debian guy but forced to use redhat in work :(
<maniacmusician> ah I see. I don't really like redhat myself. dont see much advantage to them
<maniacmusician> companies just use it because of the reputation it's built up.
<Corbeaux> it's good to have someone to blame
<Corbeaux> or that's the logic they gave me when i kicked a fuss about hem not using debian the first time
<maniacmusician> haha yeah that too
<maniacmusician> Well, Ubuntu offers corporate-level support from Canonical, so maybe that's a more viable solution for companies in the future
<Corbeaux> in the future yes
<Corbeaux> i saw on the website a few months ago that they are even offering certification in ubuntu now
<Corbeaux> I think that's an awesome idea
<maniacmusician> yeah. The only problem is that it has to catch on. Don't know if that will ever happen
<Corbeaux> I try to convert all my friends to ubuntu but it's hard to give them support if you don't actually use it yourself sometimes, especially when they have questions about the GUI. I guess i can tell them to come here in the future
<Corbeaux> lots of really patient people here :p
<maniacmusician> hehe yeah. I'd actually recommend the forums as well. It's not as fast, but there's a lot of cool people there as well
<maniacmusician> http://ubuntuforums.org
<Corbeaux> something else that impressed me with ubuntu was it's one step lampp setup, well it was intended at the time, never checked if they actually did it
<Corbeaux> lampp used to take up to a full day the first time i tried
<maniacmusician> yup, that has been one of the priorities of the developers
<maniacmusician> and last I heard, it was going great
<Corbeaux> so they did it then?
<maniacmusician> well I don't know about one step
<maniacmusician> but I've seen how-to's for it on the forum, and they seemed pretty easy to follow
<Corbeaux> :)
<Corbeaux> i was thinking they would bring it down to apt-get install lamp
<maniacmusician> lol, maybe by 7.04
<maniacmusician> it's really pretty amazing how fast development is going
<Corbeaux> agreed!
<kishan> hi
<kishan> any one teaching
<engla> I think it's pause until tomorrow right now
<engla> whatever that means
<engla> but it seems classes are mostly during the european day
<nalioth> means: "all times are in UTC"
<nalioth> yep
<engla> (I don't mind I'm CET)
* nalioth is US CST 
<elkbuntu> its a pause, yes. however there's #ubuntu-freshers which iirc is for general questions. there's not many in there now, but hopefully this will improve as friday reaches more people
<tonyyarusso> Yeah, I was looking for a clarification on that - why the separate channel for Friday's festivities compared to the rest of the week?
<nalioth> yes, that is a good question
<nalioth> i see much confusion ahead
<tonyyarusso> Starting with me :)
<tonyyarusso> Is something else going on here in the meantime, or?
<maniacmusician> at least there will be people in here to redirect everyone to #ubuntu-freshers
<maniacmusician> no, nothing going on here
<tonyyarusso> Weird
<elkbuntu> you'd have to ask jono as to the reasoning. im sure somewhere in that british brain of his there's method to the madness
<tonyyarusso> British...method...?
<maniacmusician> haha
<engla> well
<engla> if this is a classroom and -freshers is not
<engla> then it makes sense
<engla> I assume you can speak more freely in -freshers
<elkbuntu> engla, there's #ubuntu-classroom-chat as well. why not do the freshers thing there?
<nalioth> confusion confusion
<tonyyarusso>  /join #ubuntu-confusion ;)
<effie_jayx> confusion?
<effie_jayx> is there such channel ?
* nalioth thought we were here already
<effie_jayx> nalioth, LOL
* tonyyarusso resists the urge to change the topic to "Welcome to confusion!"
<jrib> is this room safe to bring in someone to help at the moment?
<jrib> I fear tonyyarusso may scare them away
* tonyyarusso puts on the friendly mask
<tonyyarusso> jrib: All safe now!
<Spiceydog> kk
<jrib> great
<jrib> Spiceydog: alright, you have https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wine opened up?
<Spiceydog> yep
<jrib> ok, well it says "For help on adding repositories, see the Repositories page" which is a link to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories
<jrib> that page will give you a good understanding of how repositories work
<Spiceydog> ok
<jrib> it goes on to say that you want to add the following repository:
<jrib> deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main
<Spiceydog> where does it say that?
<jrib> [WWW]  WineHQ provides the newest versions of Wine packaged for Ubuntu. To use these, you need to add the WineHQ repository and then install Wine with Synaptic. For help on adding repositories, see the Repositories page.
<jrib>    1.
<jrib>       Add the repository:
<jrib>           *
<jrib>             For Ubuntu 6.10 (Edgy Eft): Add the following repository deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main
<Spiceydog> ok
<jrib> cool, do you understand how to do that?
<Spiceydog> well.. when i type:  deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main into the terminal i get this: bash: deb: command not found
<jrib> k, that's not the right approach.  Open up your sources.list.  'gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list'
<Spiceydog> ok open
<jrib> ok pick any line that starts with "deb http..." and paste it here for us to look at
<Spiceydog> got it
<Spiceydog> deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu dapper-security main restricted
<jrib> ok does that look similar to    deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main ?  (yes)
<Spiceydog> lol yah
<jrib> so that line is just giving us a new deb line to add to your sources.list
<Spiceydog> ok
<jrib> so at the bottom of the file in your editor, just paste:  deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main
<jrib> on its own line
<Spiceydog> yep
<Spiceydog> got it
<jrib> you can do this through the gui as well, I encourage you to read through https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories
<jrib> Spiceydog: ok save the file and exit
<Spiceydog> done
<Spiceydog> now u want me to type: sudo apt-get update
<Spiceydog> ?
<jrib> now any time you manually edit sources.list, you have to tell apt-get to update the package list.  Right, apt-get update
<Spiceydog> E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/apt/lists/lock - open (13 Permission denied)
<Spiceydog> E: Unable to lock the list directory
<jrib> sudo apt-get update    you probably skipped the sudo because I didn't say, sorry about that
<Spiceydog> ok its working
<Spiceydog> hmm
<jrib> ok, so now your apt-get will look for packages in the new repository you just added
<Spiceydog> well it just did a hole buncha things... but then ended with those 'Could not open lock file...' things..
<jrib> try 'sudo apt-get install wine', it should prompt you to install the new version
<Spiceydog> except..
<jrib> hmm
<Spiceydog> E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?
<jrib> do you have synaptic open maybe?
<Spiceydog> yep
<Spiceydog> that was it
<Spiceydog> let me redue it
<Spiceydog> alright it worked that time
<jrib> yeah, synaptic and apt-get are just different ways to do the same thing.  They use the same database so you can only use one at a time
<jrib> try 'sudo apt-get install wine', it should prompt you to install the new version
<Spiceydog> sudo apt-get install wine now?
<Spiceydog> hmm
<Spiceydog> well
<jrib> wait
<jrib> you aren't using edgy
<Spiceydog> lol great
<jrib> so where are you now, did it install?
<Spiceydog> no.. it said this: talled
<Spiceydog>         Depends: libxml2 (>= 2.6.26) but 2.6.24.dfsg-1ubuntu1 is to be installed        Depends: libxslt1.1 (>= 1.1.17) but 1.1.15-1ubuntu1 is to be installed
<Spiceydog> E: Broken packages
<jrib> k
<jrib> go back and edit your sources.list
<jrib> make it say dapper instead of edgy on that last line
<Spiceydog> ok wut was it that i type to get that/
<jrib> gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
<Spiceydog> kk
<Spiceydog> hey shud it say: dapper-security instead of just dapper.. since the other 1 did?
<jrib> nope, that's good
<Spiceydog> shud i do this again: sudo apt-get update
<jrib> right, every time you edit sources.list you should do that
<Spiceydog> alright. now ill do the install thing
<jrib> this was a good way for you to learn a valuable lesson though, don't mix packages from other distributions or releases
<jrib> yep, go ahead and install
<Spiceydog> alright it appears to be working now
<Spiceydog> omg... slow internet.. 39kbps..
<jrib> great, did everything make sense?  Any questions?
<Spiceydog> yah made alotta since! thanks for all ur help.
<jrib> np
<effie_jayx> what good gmas run on wine?
<Spiceydog> world of warcraft
<Spiceydog> hey does Counter-Strike run on it?
<Spiceydog> i got a special cracked version of counter-strike..
<jrib> Spiceydog: http://appdb.winehq.org/
<anurag> exit
<anurag> exit
<anurag> quit
<anurag> exit
<Zbyshek> finally
<maniacmusician> lol
<towsonu2003> hehehehehe
<towsonu2003> I guess s/he was sing a cli irc client?
<towsonu2003> sing=using
<stalefries> perhaps, although you can use /exit on gui ones too
<yaso> Is any indians out there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Zbyshek> what?
<poningru> whatup?
<yaso> whatsup?
* poningru is an indian?
<poningru> err -?
<poningru> what bhasha?
<poningru> err language
<tonyyarusso> What the heck poningru ?
<poningru> blargh?
<poningru> sorry
<tonyyarusso> What are you talking about?
<Zbyshek> UBUNTU!
<poningru> tonyyarusso: yaso asked who here is an indian
<poningru> I said I am
<tonyyarusso> ah
<yaso> ah, thanks
<yaso> stupid indians geeks :@
<yaso> lol
<yaso> sorry, how do i connect BSNL, TATA using Ubuntu
<yaso> Do i need pppoe dialer or something ?
<abattoir> yaso: try 'sudo pppoeconf'
<abattoir> that is of course, if it is PPPoE
<abattoir> try #ubuntu for support questions
<abattoir> this channel might not be very active
<yaso> abattoir, well, I can't config thought. nyway i found something intresting
<yaso> abattoir, thanks
<abattoir> no problem
<tonyyarusso> Does anyone really understand what Jono has in mind for tomorrow?
<maniacmusician> I think it's just time when people that are not yet using ubuntu, thinking about using it, or really new to it can come and ask some general questions, get tips on how to get a better experience out of it, etc
<tonyyarusso> Who's giving the answers?  Anybody who's been around for a bit?
<tonyyarusso> Seems a tad free-for-all-ish.  Could be interesting.
<maniacmusician> I think just normal community members
<maniacmusician> are giving answers
<tonyyarusso> Could be cool
<maniacmusician> and yes it does seem free-for-all-ish. I'm hoping it'll be good, as long as we get good community turnout
<maniacmusician> of course, if we don't get much fresher turnout, that'll be pointless lol
<tonyyarusso> I'm also a little intrigued that with the free-for-all he still seems to have himself handling keeping order in the channel on his own.
<maniacmusician> lol hopefully there won't be much need of order-keeping
<tonyyarusso> If it's anything like the rest of the week it'll be fine.
<maniacmusician> yeah. but it could be full of newbies that have never used IRC and are used to AIM chat rooms or something. also, it has more potential for a lot of active members at one time
<maniacmusician> in the classroom, only the presenter talked, mainly, and a few odd people asked questions
<tonyyarusso> Yeah
<tyerldaf> hey guys I just trying installing linux(unbunc), but it freezes up, ro something it says nautilus real small, and has 3 little boxes in a sqaure type box.
<tyerldaf>  I check for defects, and it said 1 checksums failed please reboot, so should I try to redownload it, and reburn it on cd again?
<tonyyarusso> Yeah.
<tonyyarusso> Check the md5 of the iso before you burn, and burn at a low speed
<tyerldaf> okay
<tyerldaf> how can i check the md5
<Zbyshek> md5sum
<tonyyarusso> !verifyiso
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about verifyiso - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<tonyyarusso> man the bot's letting me down a lot lately
<tonyyarusso> !verify
<tonyyarusso> ?
<ubotu> To mount an .iso image: sudo mount -o loop my.iso /some/mountpoint - bin/cue can be converted to iso with bchunk  .iso images of Ubuntu CDs can be downloaded from http://releases.ubuntu.com Always verify the .iso before burning, see http://help.ubuntu.com/community/VerifyIsoHowto or http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/LQ_ISO/Checking_the_md5sum_in_Windows
<tonyyarusso> there we go
* tonyyarusso checks pockets
<tonyyarusso> My my, what have we here?
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts#head-b787da88ea1f9d431c1649d8cfaac71824eb4563
<yaso> how to reqest "unaffiliated" user clock.
<yaso> nvm
<jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
<dpreacher> no one teaching in class?
<MarkoKaa>  Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day
<MarkoKaa>  #ubuntu-freshers
<dpreacher> what do ubuntu freshers do on this day? get freshened up?
<dpreacher> the freshers channel is havin heavy volume discussion goin
<MarkoKaa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuFreshersDay for more info :)
<yaso> thanks dude
<MarkoKaa> no prob
<dpreacher> hey that's nice!
<dpreacher> i wish most rooms/channels keep the conference mode coz ppl joinin and leaving take up lot of log space and also screen space
<MarkoKaa> :)
<dpreacher> i mean the few people listed on the wiki page must be having a crazy load of queries to deal with...questions at all levels
<jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
<jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
<shadeofgrey> what pray tell is this channel used for?
<Jon> shadeofgrey: classes - see /topic
<jono> shadeofgrey, its used for Ubuntu classes
<shadeofgrey> like what?
<Jon> there's a schedule in the topic which would serve as examples
<shadeofgrey> are the classes offered here good for counting toward actual certification in ubuntyu?
<shadeofgrey> ARE there certs for ubuntu?
<jono> shadeofgrey, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the schedule this week
<jono> shadeofgrey, something we are working on
<shadeofgrey> well let me just say
<shadeofgrey> ive been using ubuntu a long time
<shadeofgrey> since warty
<shadeofgrey> 'and i have tio say you have all come a long way since then
<shadeofgrey> i make a great living converting windows users to ubuntu users
<emonkey> shadeofgrey, There's a LPI Certification for Ubuntu avalaible
<shadeofgrey> and everybody is always so happy when they watch windows disintegrate into distant memory and ubuntu take its place
<shadeofgrey> so far ive convcerted 75 soccer moms and 200 university students all at $125  each...  but that includes migrating all their old data
<shadeofgrey> does anybody here know when ubuntu will be multicore capable?
<emonkey> http://www.mail-archive.com/lpi-announce@lpi.org/msg00111.html
<emonkey> AFAIK it already with the SMP kernel possible
<nalioth> shadeofgrey: Ubuntu has had SMP capability since warty
<shadeofgrey> okjay
<shadeofgrey> where can i find info on putting ubuntu on macbookpro laptops
<shadeofgrey> i want to run a dual boot environment
<shadeofgrey> really bad
<rushdy> wow shadeofgrey, thats pretty good going! :D
<shadeofgrey> rushdy, its like i always tell soccer moms...  friends dont let friends run windows
<shadeofgrey> its either tiger or ubuntu...  anything less is so...  20th century
<rushdy> haha :D
<shadeofgrey> though i must confess i lust after office 2007
<shadeofgrey> admitting that publically is the first step toward a full recovery
<rushdy> :)
<shadeofgrey> its only because word really does kick ass
<shadeofgrey> but i cant STAND internet exploder or Access .... or visual studio...  or winblows...  excel kicks ass though
<shadeofgrey> and ii dont care what sgteve jobs says.,  keynote blows rancid wolverine nuts
<PriceChild> shadeofgrey: one of my house mates has been running office 2007 a few months.... then it suddenly decided it wasn't registered at 2 in the morning the night before a major essay hand in... I installed OOo on their machine and they've completely forgotten about MSO
<Ramunas> hello
<apokryphos> hi
<Lesley> heellooo!
<nalioth> howdy
<Lesley> we are very early
<nalioth> actually, you need to visit #ubuntu-freshers
<nalioth> they've been going for about 4 hours now
<Lesley> oh
<Lesley> bye
<greguti> hi all, when does it start?
<abattoir>  <jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
<abattoir> greguti: no sessions here today
<atoponce> when will the next classroom sessions be held here?
<KenMikaze> hello
<greguti> f**k, where is the fresher day then?
<KenMikaze> I'm a newbie here.
<abattoir> greguti: #ubuntu-freshers :)
<atoponce> seems to me this channel is more than just for OpenWeek
<greguti> goddam it!
<greguti> Thanks abattoir!
<abattoir> atoponce: the New user network has classes here often, it is being used for the Open Week
<abattoir> atoponce: regular Open Week classes resume tomorrow
<abattoir> (depending on your TZ)
<KenMikaze> I just have a question.
<abattoir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek has the schedule
<abattoir> KenMikaze: ask :)
<KenMikaze> How come, Kubuntu 6.06 doesn't have firefox installed on the Internet menu?
<abattoir> KenMikaze: Kubuntu comes w/ Konqueror as the default web browser
<KenMikaze> ok, so what do i have to do then?
<abattoir> KenMikaze: you can install firefox either through Adept or by running 'sudo apt-get install firefox' in a terminal
<atoponce> sudo aptitude install firefox
<KenMikaze> ok, thanks.
<abattoir> KenMikaze: Try Konqueror, or get firefox if you want it
<KenMikaze> it's ok.. i'll do it the hard way.
<atoponce> konqueror does have an advantage over firefox: it's acid2 compliant
<KenMikaze> right now, I'm using windows just to download the linuxant driver for my internal modem.
<KenMikaze> thanks guys.
* atoponce 's firefox. can't live without the extensions...
<KenMikaze> me too, I like firefox...
<KenMikaze> btw, what's acid2?
<KenMikaze> like i've said, I'm a newb, so please bear with me.
<atoponce> http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
<atoponce> it's a css level 2 tester.
<KenMikaze> I got it... it's cool.
<KenMikaze> well, at least I've got to try konqueror later.
<KenMikaze> once i finish the download.
<atoponce> you should see how IE renders Acid2. it's horrible
<KenMikaze> wish I could, but my i.e.'s blocked by this wga thing.
<atoponce> http://level.s69.xrea.com/mozilla/image2/acid2/ie6.png
<KenMikaze> checking it out.
<atoponce> http://level.s69.xrea.com/mozilla/image2/acid2/ie7b2p.png
<KenMikaze> by the way, atoponce, where are you from?
<atoponce> opera, safari, konqueror all pass it. i think there are others too
<atoponce> utah/usa
<atoponce> por que?
<KenMikaze> bangkok here, but originally, from the p.i.
<KenMikaze> i'm from the philippines, but currently living here in bangkok.
<atoponce> cool
<atoponce> firefox 3 will pass the test. they'll be using the gecko 1.9 engine
<atoponce> i'm looking forward to that
<KenMikaze> cool.
<KenMikaze> when's firefox 3 coming out?
<atoponce> may 2007 is the plan
<atoponce> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Schedule
<KenMikaze> cool.
<jee> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<graham_100> just upgraded to ubuntu 6.10 frommmmmmmmmmmmm dapper as you can see i have a keyboarddddddddddd problem
<graham_100> lol
<graham_100> how do i fix this?
<hifi> repeat rate too fast?
<graham_100> iam not sure
<graham_100> let            me look
<hifi> when you push a button it starts to flood it immediately?
<hifi> no slight delay or is your buttons just "sticky"
<graham_100> not all thhhhhhhhhhhe time just as you see ittttttttttttt now
<hifi> oh
<hifi> dont know then
<graham_100> if i take off the key repeat when            pressed down should this fix?
<graham_100> see whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat i mean with intermittttttttttttent problem?
<graham_100> i slowed down the speeeeeed of it still does it thouuuuuugh
<graham_100> lol
<graham_100> i wonder if turning off key repeat will fix?
<hifi> try xset r off
<graham_100> i think i fixed it turning key repeat off
<graham_100> not looking as it's doing it anymore
<graham_100> wireless card probs too :S
<graham_100> i know the card is recognised and i know it tells me that the driver is there
<graham_100> what do you do next as i am not too sure on that
<graham_100> ?
<geof1> What happens now ?
<graham_100> i think my wireless card is not working?!?!
<LinuxBA> Seveas: ping
<jrib> graham_100: someone had that key repeat problem yesterday and he got linked to a bug in launchpad, no idea what it was but if you can't find it I'll grep the logs.
<graham_100> thanks
<napels7> +e napels7
<napels7> join
<fernando> exit
<vyoman> hi is there anybody left from the packaging team?
<napels7> join kanaal
<napels7> join #ubuntu-classroom
<jrib> vyoman: you can always find them at #ubuntu-motu
<jrib> vyoman: you can check in #ubuntu-freshers as well today
<vyoman> thanks
<kishan> hi
<PriceChild> hi
<PriceChild> everyone's in #ubuntu-freshers kishan
<kishan> ok
<kishan> what is going on there
<kishan> n one is replying there
<PriceChild> ask a question
<PriceChild> today is freshers day
* PriceChild goes back
<robotgeek> heh, just a bit too late i guess
<stalefries> robotgeek: no, everyone is  in #ubuntu-freshers today
<stalefries> !freshers
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about freshers - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<stalefries> !search freshers
<ubotu> Found:
<stalefries> oh well
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-02
<jenda> There is a quiz in #ubuntu-trivia starting in a few minutes! The lucky winner will be getting a free Ubuntu Poster!!!
<graham_100> maniacmusician
<graham_100> !paste bin
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about paste bin - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<graham_100> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (be sure to give the URL of your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<eneried> hi
<poningru> eneried: hello
<eneried> hello, this is the place for Ubuntu Free Week?
<eyequeue> Open Week?  yes
<eneried> yes yes Open Week
<eyequeue> The schedule is in the URL in the /topic, but it seems quiet for the next few hours
<eyequeue> I plan on idling my client in here, and if i happen to fall asleep, i can scroll back at least :)
<eneried> ah, but i ... couldn't calculate time
<eneried> hehe
<eneried> a mistake
<eyequeue> @NOW
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 02 2006, 08:04:54
<eyequeue> @EST
<eyequeue> try something like  those, if they help
<poningru> eneried: whats up?
<poningru> did you just wanna hang out or have any questions?
<poningru> I can try and answer those questions
<poningru> :)
<eyequeue> i know in -meeting the bot is programmed to tell when the next meeting is, but i'm not sure if it knows the class schedule for -classroom
<eneried> i was waiting for the meeting, but i commited a mistake, when calculating time
<poningru> ah cool
<eneried> i  thin k the time ws now, buy is in 7 hours
<eneried> then maybe is better for me to sleep
<eneried> hehe
<eyequeue> grab sleep while you can :)
<eneried> hehe thanks
<eneried> see you later
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Questions+discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next Session: LoCo Teams (1500 UTC)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
<stanz> ahh~ finally got here...but-just in from work and hitting the sack! :)  will check this out later. Thanks all!!
<bhtb> hi!
<rubia> hi!
<Schnorgi> hi
<nixternal> low
<zilo> hello
<jono> yo
<rmjb_> 'sup
<bhtb> hey
<elkbuntu> howdy jono :)
<jono> hey elkbuntu :)
<thiebaude> hi jono
<jono> hi thane
<jono> oops
<jono> hi thiebaude
<thane> :)
<Bourlotieris> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
* elkbuntu hands Bourlotieris a spare /
<Bourlotieris> * :)
<elkbuntu> Hello everyone! Welcome to the second LoCo Teams introduction session.
<elkbuntu> As always, questions to be prefixed with QUESTION: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and i'll fetch them as they're relevant :)
<elkbuntu> Today will be pretty much identical to Thursday's session, but of course, with different people we get a whole new bunch of cool questions. So, lets get on with things :)
<elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, and I am the LoCo Team Contact for the Ubuntu Australian LoCo Team. If you are wondering what that title involves, fear not, for we will be discussing it over the course of this session. I have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MelissaDraper that introduces me in more detail.
<elkbuntu> Over the course of this session, we will be discussing a number of aspects of LoCo Teams. This includes, but is not limited to:
<elkbuntu> * What are LoCo Teams?
<elkbuntu> * Who leads the LoCo?
<elkbuntu> * How I can find my LoCo Team?
<elkbuntu> * But, I can't see a LoCo Team for me!
<elkbuntu> * How do I start a LoCo?
<elkbuntu> * Approved vs New
<elkbuntu> * How can I get involved?
<elkbuntu> Now, lets start at the beginning. What are LoCo Teams?
<elkbuntu> A LoCo (short for Local Community) Team is a group of (in our case) Ubuntu users within a Localised Community.
<elkbuntu> The teams are run by the people, for the people. They are *not* run by Canonical, however Canonical is highly supportive of them and will provide assistance. We will cover the assistance offered later.
<elkbuntu> A LoCo can involve a lot of things such as local promotion, support in the local language, general support to local users and much more.
<elkbuntu> LoCo Teams can be based around location, such as in my case, Australia.
<elkbuntu> Because people in Australia speak English, there is not a strong need for language-based activities. Our primary focus is advocacy within Australia, but we do a small amount of support.
<elkbuntu> Language based teams include for instance, the Spanish Team, which is based primarily around the Spanish language and hence includes most, if not all, the Spanish-speaking countries.
<elkbuntu> Because Spanish is a very widely spoken language, the team's efforts would have a greater focus on providing support in Spanish and translating Ubuntu. There are still, of course, advocacy efforts within the team.
<elkbuntu> One aspect of LoCo Teams that we find is also important, is that they enable and encourage people to interact with other Ubuntu users that are actually near them, as opposed to the other side of the world.
<ubunturos_> someone use my computer run firefox 2.0 running :(
<ubunturos_> computer to start / run
<elkbuntu> A single person with ideas is nothing compared to a dozen equally imaginative people :)
<elkbuntu> Does anyone have questions about what I've covered so far?
<elkbuntu> One question we get asked a lot by new teams is "Who leads the LoCo?".
<elkbuntu> Generally, this is done by the LoCo Team Contact.
<elkbuntu> The contact may be the founder, who has self-appointed his or herself, or, he or she may have been democratically elected.
<elkbuntu> There's no 'right' way to do it, and some teams even have multiple contacts.
<elkbuntu> What works for *your team* is best, and it may take a few tries to figure out what this is.
<elkbuntu> The responsibilities of the Team Contact vary with the focus of the team, but a general guideline is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamContact
<elkbuntu> In my role as the LoCo Team Contact for Ubuntu-Au, my responsibilities generally include maintaining regular meetings, delegating tasks, channel upkeep and moderation and so forth.
<elkbuntu> LoCo Contacts should be subscribed to the loco-contacts mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts) and hang out in #ubuntu-locoteams.
<elkbuntu> The team contact is also the public face of the LoCo. He/She acts as the main communication bridge between the team and the community at large. Given this, a grasp on the English language is almost necessary.
<elkbuntu> It is possible that the contact may be approached by media, or get direct support requests, as their contact details are, or at least should be, easily obtainable.
<elkbuntu> Ok, some questions :)
<elkbuntu> <yama> QUESTION/COMMENT: while language activities are not seen as important in English-speaking countries, note that there are many variants of English. The English Translation team, for example, tries to cater for en_GB and its dialects
<elkbuntu> This is a good point, thanks yama :)
<elkbuntu> <rmjb> QUESTION: what's the smallest LoCo team now? My country is already small and probably has only a handful of Ubuntu users
<elkbuntu> I have no idea. there's probably locos with just 1 or 2 people in them that are still trying to get off the ground.
<elkbuntu> <techno_freak> Question: when there is a conflict or difference of opinion on who leads a loco team, where do we go or who solves the issue ?
<elkbuntu> I believe we have a wiki page about this, im just quickly tyring to find it for you :)
<elkbuntu> I was right, yay! take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoResolvingProblems
<techno_freak> elkbuntu: sure :)
<elkbuntu> <SimonAnibal> CONTACT: Is the "leader" LoCo Team Contact by default, and should LoCo Team Contact be a fluent English speaker?
<elkbuntu> As I said before, it varies between teams. It is advisable that there's at least someone nominated to translate for the team and for the people outside the team. it makes working things out much easier
<elkbuntu> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: are the university based loCo's,if so can you mention one so we can follow footsteps
<elkbuntu> I dont know of any specific university based teams, but the Chicago team is based around one city, so it's probably worth contacting them :)
<effie_jayx> thnx
<elkbuntu> I'll continue with the class script a bit now
<elkbuntu> Some people in here have probably already located their LoCo Team. Some others may want to know "How I can find my LoCo Team?"
<elkbuntu> A good way to find your LoCo Team, is to visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and see if there is a team in your area.
<elkbuntu> If there are several teams that apply to you, the team at country or state level is probably the team you should join first, although there's nothing stopping you being in multiple LoCos.
<elkbuntu> Now, if any of you are in the situation where you are looking at the teams list and thinking "But, I can't see a LoCo team for me!", then there's a good chance one may not exist.
<elkbuntu> There is a possibility that your team just has not added themselves to the list, so check the channels list here on freenode, and/or do a google for the team name.
<elkbuntu> For example, the Australian team is "Ubuntu-au". "au" is the ISO code for Australia.
<elkbuntu> If after searching, you cannot see a team then there probably is not one.
<elkbuntu> If you are really interested in LoCo work, then it is time to find some other people and start one.
<elkbuntu> I know a few people are here wanting to know "How do I start a LoCo?". Well luckily, it's not rocket science.
<elkbuntu> The main things you need are people and communication. It is recommended that you start by setting up a mailing list and an IRC channel.
<elkbuntu> We can help with this in various ways. Well, we cannot help you gather the people, but the other things we can help with.
<elkbuntu> For a mailing list, we prefer if the list is created through Ubuntu's mailman system. For this, email mailman@lists.ubuntu.com
<elkbuntu> To register your LoCo Channel, see '/msg chanserv help register' for instructions. The channel should be #ubuntu-cc where 'cc' is your country ISO code.
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu, ;)
<elkbuntu> IRC channels are best done here on Freenode. Almost all Ubuntu channels are here, and it's useful to have all the channels together.
<elkbuntu> Not only that, Ubuntu has built up a very good relationship with the Freenode staff, so we're able to pull strings. It's quite convenient.
<elkbuntu> Another important point about using the Ubuntu mailman and Freenode, is that if for some unfortunate reason, the team leader was to disappear into thin air (and yes, this happens), it is much easier to negotiate the reassigning of privileges.
<elkbuntu> We've had proof of this concept in the past 48 hours. The venezuelan LoCo has been able to reclaim use of their channel :)
<elkbuntu> Anyway, Once you have the basic structure set up, you're a LoCo team.
<SimonAnibal> elkbuntu: WooHoo! Thanks!
<effie_jayx> D
<effie_jayx> :D
<elkbuntu> Whilst it is not entirely mandatory, it's strongly suggested you sign the team up at Launchpad.net. This lets us know the team exists, for a start, but it also makes it easy to see who is in the team for purposes of verifing things if something goes wrong.
<elkbuntu> Launchpad also incorporates the Rosetta translation tools, which is what Ubuntu uses for translations.
<elkbuntu> With Launchpad, there are also other ways to contribute to Ubuntu as a whole (outside the realm of LoCo Teams), as has been pointed out over the past few days. Communication and contribution with the rest of the Ubuntu community is essential for a team's success.
<elkbuntu> <techno_freak> Question: what support do loco team gets for taking up localization and internationalization efforts within its zone ?
<elkbuntu> Im not entirely sure what you mean by this. The Rosetta system within launchpad is quite well supported by Canonical.
<elkbuntu> <yama> QUESTION: in a similar vein to my previous comment, is there a recommended way and/or infrastructure for speakers of dialects of the same language (e.g. Spanish, French, Portuguese) to collaborate on translations? At present, there is a lot of duplication of effort.
<elkbuntu> I would think that there would be things for this within rosetta. I'm not at all familiar with the system so i cannot comfortably comment here.
<elkbuntu> <yama> QUESTION: Is there a recommended minimum area for a LoCo team? For instance, would three teams in the same city be seen as splintering the community or catering to specific needs?
<elkbuntu> I would say that situation would be a bit ridiculous. However, if the city has several million people, it could well be feasible
<elkbuntu> <eneried> QUESTION: Could our Team will be based not in a place but a need?
<elkbuntu> Do you mean such as language?
<elkbuntu> <yama> COMMENT: Gmane can be used for those who would prefer a web-based interface to the mailing lists. <yama> that way, you can avoid the community being split between a mailing list and a Web forum
<elkbuntu> thanks for that, yama :)
<elkbuntu> You may or may not have heard reference to 'approved' and 'new' LoCo Teams. This has caused confusion in the past, so I'll cover it now.
<eneried> meybe a language, maybe a culture based task, an investigation work, an internet thing not suitable for localization. music for example
<elkbuntu> eneried, yes. very much so. im pretty certain that the spanish team goes beyond the boundries of spain, for instance
<elkbuntu> An approved team is a team that is up and running, has each of the required resources in operation and the team is working well.
<elkbuntu> When you become an approved team, it will make you eligible for certain benefits such as marketing materials, etc
<elkbuntu> An approved team is also considered officially by the Ubuntu project, and the process involves going before the Community Council.
<elkbuntu> New teams are equally important to us, and we do support them by providing services such as hosting, a domain, mailing lists etc to help them become established.
<elkbuntu> Once a new team has been set up with the basic mail/irc/launchpad structure, and have been around for a while, there should be no problem getting approved.
<elkbuntu> If the team chooses to remain unapproved, we're ok with that too, but there are benefits, as mentioned above, for being approved.
<elkbuntu> If you have questions about, or your team requires any of the LoCo services mentioned today, please join #ubuntu-locoteams and ask away, or sign up to the mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts) if you prefer that way of asking.
<elkbuntu> eneried asked: QUESTION: our Team has the new status, how we can claim for the benefits related? i mean hosting, for example. Does this answer your question, eneried?
<eneried> a little
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: Hello elkbuntu, how non-english LoCo Teams can coordinate?
<elkbuntu> mruiz, clarification please? Do you mean between each other, or within themselves?
<mruiz> elkbuntu, between different Teams
<elkbuntu> that's the point behind having an english-speaking contact. English is like the official language, if you want to look at it like that
<elkbuntu> <eneried> QUESTION: asking about a host and domain... with who we must contact to get both things?
<elkbuntu> Please join the channel I mentioned before (#ubuntu-locoteams) and we can discuss it later
<elkbuntu> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: does the mailing list have to be registerd in the ubuntu server to count as a mailinglist to enable eligibility for aproval?
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, I'm not 100% sure, but it's preferred at least.
<effie_jayx> ok
<eneried> elkubuntu, thanks, question asnwered
<elkbuntu> <samgee> QUESTION: Do teams for multilingual countries like Switzerland have their own language teams (swiss = swiss-fr + swiss-de + swiss-it) or do they just overlap with/act separately from the main language teams?
<elkbuntu> I'm going to point you towards a fellow who goes by the nick 'looksaus' for this one. he is the belgian loco contact. if he's not on now, keep an eye out for him, he hangs out in the locoteams channel
<elkbuntu> If you were not before, you may now (hopefully) be wondering "How can I get involved?".
<elkbuntu> For most teams, just being on the mailing list, in the IRC channel or on the launchpad.net team is sufficient to join the team, and once you have done this, you can contribute in a variety of ways.
<elkbuntu> As mentioned above, LoCo Teams involve a variety of project areas. These can include local support, translation, and local promotion, or even simply documenting the team and it's activites.
<elkbuntu> If you unsure of how best to get involved with your LoCo, a good idea is to ask a prominent member within the team. They often know what areas need more man (or woman) power.
<elkbuntu> Alternatively, if you are for instance, interested in seeing more promotional material that is relevant to your country, then you could simply create the material you feel is missing.
<elkbuntu> When you've done whatever you felt necessary, tell people in the LoCo about it. Showing initiative is also a good way to get respect :)
<elkbuntu> On a larger level, groups of LoCo members can get together to stage install-fests, or run booths at computer fairs.
<elkbuntu> There are alot of great LoCos around, and we're fortunate to have had some of them collaborate to provide us with our (still fledgling) knowledgebase.
<elkbuntu> If you want to find out more about joining, establishing or running LoCos, you can see the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase wiki page.
<elkbuntu> <rmjb> QUESTION: Can you give a couple examples of the AU LoCo team's activities since it's already english?
<elkbuntu> We had a pretty good turn-out at Software Freedom Day this year :)
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: About LoCo Team logo, how create a logo and respect the Ubuntu Logo trademark (for example no modify it)?
<elkbuntu> Work within your team and come up with a design everyone is happy with. once you've done that, there is a process... let me find the wiki page
<elkbuntu> ... and it seems it is taking a while
<mruiz> :)
<elkbuntu> <techno_freak> Question: For making use of the support for promotional activities, is it necessary that a loco team member should approach only through the Loco team contact/head ?
<elkbuntu> Yes, it is the preferred way.
<elkbuntu> mruiz, google to the rescue! http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy/
<mruiz> thanks
<elkbuntu> <eneried> QUESTION:going back to question about a need, for example, we could have a Team for bioiformatics, astonomy or medicine needs, but bioinformatics researchers, astronomers and doctors are not in same place (ans come could not, who are in observatories for example), could that communities work like a LoCo Team?
<elkbuntu> eneried, anything is possible. I've not really seen such subteams within a loco before, but if there are distinct groups then I see no reason why it would not work
<elkbuntu> Any more questions?
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: For example, some guys from Dominican Republic contact me because they need some help to create their LoCo. Can mentoring program include non-english speakers LoCo Teams?
<elkbuntu> Most certainly! If your team is able to help out, then go for it :)
<elkbuntu> We'd appreciate if you could document the process. we're always looking for new case studies to help us define some best practices for mentoring
<mruiz> cool
<elkbuntu> Anyone else? the only stupid question is the one not asked :)
<elkbuntu> <eneried> QUESTION: What kind of relationship must be between a LoCo Team an the OpenSource movenment? Could the LoCo Team work in closed source apps or solutions (off course never closing ubuntu itself), or mixed solutions (computers with mac and ubuntu in same local network)?
<elkbuntu> Hmm.. im starting to think your focus is less about LoCo and more about target areas. There's nothing stopping you creating teams such as 'Science team'
<elkbuntu> sorry for the delay in answer, i had to think there :)
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: Is possible than a LoCo Team have 2 o more LoCo contacts?
<elkbuntu> Yes, I believe the french team have 3. (i may be mistaken on who and how many)
<elkbuntu> <eneried> QUESTION: I said Open Source, but ubuntu is not only source code. Here in colombia we have a great ned, a lot of people does not know what Open Source or even linux is!! And i talk about classroom teacher, about politicians, about journalist... any effective idea or experience to tell us how to make them know about ubuntu, and what not to do in the LoCo to reach that goal?
<elkbuntu> ... im really not sure what you're trying to ask. Within a LoCo, people often have a role. Nothing is stopping people having consultative roles
<elkbuntu> <anschel> QUESTION: Do LoCo's normally meet? I'm interested in installfests and meetings and I was wondering if a loco would be the place for that
<elkbuntu> A loCo is an ideal group to hold install fests and so forth
<elkbuntu> I think that's enough. We're going to run over time if i do any more questions
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o dholbach]  by ChanServ
<elkbuntu> And saying that...
<elkbuntu> Here is the ever delightful Daniel Holbach to tell you all about MOTU :)
<dholbach> Everybody give a big hand for the magnificent elkbuntu.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:dholbach] : Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Questions+discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Next Session: MOTU
* effie_jayx claps frntically
<dholbach> thank you elkbuntu :)
* dholbach hugs elkbuntu
<thiebaude> thanks and good day, elkbuntu
<samgee> thx
<KillGore> bye
<elkbuntu> dholbach, for you my dear, any time :)
* elkbuntu hugs dholbach
<dholbach>  .-)
<dholbach> HELLO EVERYBODY
<dholbach> this session is going to be about MOTU, the Master of the Universe!
<rmjb> HELLO dholbach
<thiebaude> hello dholbach
* nixternal hugs dholbach 
<dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, work for Canonical and my main objectives are Ubuntu's Desktop and working with teams like MOTU, Telepathy, Accessibility, the Art team and others. I joined the MOTUs nearly two years ago and we were around 5 of them at that time.
<dholbach> I should probably say, that I'm happy to take questions in between, so don't be shy.
<dholbach> The name originates from the Universe component, which holds the biggest amount of our packages. 'main' and 'restricted' are supported by Canonical, 'universe' and 'multiverse' by the community. 'main' and 'restricted' hold 4829 packages today and 'universe' plus 'multiverse' 15855. So as the name suggests, the MOTU team takes care of 'universe' (and 'multiverse' also). We currently have 57 members. And we hang out in #ubuntu-motu - so
<dholbach>  if you're interested in helping out and get to know the people and packaging, join us and have fun
<dholbach> So what do MOTUs generally do?
<kalon34> thanks elkbuntu
<dholbach> As a MOTU you're maintaining packages. The good thing about Ubuntu is that we don't follow the concept of applying the rigorous big maintainer lock, it's your choice which package you take care of.
<eneried> thanks elkubuntu
<dholbach> We have people
<dholbach>  * taking care only of their own packages
<dholbach>  * working together with others on a set of packages in a team
<dholbach>  * fixing lots of different packages
<dholbach> (* working on no packages at all)
<dholbach> So if you belong to the last category, listen up! This is your first step in the Ubuntu Development Community. :-D
<dholbach> Any questions up until now?
<dholbach> So who of you is already part of the MOTU process?
* rmjb raises hand
<dholbach> rmjb: Excellent#
<dholbach> Anybody in here considering joining the team?
<dholbach> I'll just go on and if you have questions or ideas what you'd like to do we can try to get into more detail there
<elkbuntu> <kalon34> QUESTION: dholbach, Which knowledges are needed to join MOTU team ?
<dholbach> gracias elkbuntu
<kalon34> maybe me, depends on competences needed.
<dholbach> kalon34: we had people joining the team, who were just curious and had basic linux skills.
<dholbach> kalon34: and they did a good job.
<dholbach> Key to having fun and profiting of the MOTU world is to be interested and motivated, talk to people and learn a lot
<dholbach> if you already built  source from scratch, wrote small programs, know how to use shell scripts, even better
<dholbach> but we have people at any skill level in the MOTU team, so you'll always find somebody you can learn something from
<dholbach> I'll go on now with what I've prepared - feel free to ask more questions in -chat
<dholbach> So how do I become a MOTU?
<soulrider> err, whats a MOTU? =/
<dholbach> That's very easy. You basically contribute to the team's efforts, either by packaging a new piece of software or by helping with fixing / updating / merging existing packages.
<dholbach> soulrider: I think I answered that before but maybe wasn't clear enough
<soulrider> or amybe i wasnt here? :P
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU might explain some bits, but here's the short story again:
<dholbach> no you weren't
<soulrider> ok, thanks
<elkbuntu> soulrider, please ask future questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
<dholbach> MOTUs are the Masters of the Universe, the community package maintainers, the people taking care of the Universe and Multiverse sections of Ubuntu's packages
<soulrider> k
<dholbach> MOTUs are the community package maintainers
<elkbuntu> there's a question, is it ok for now?
<dholbach> sure
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: dholbach, do you consider a MOTU mentoring plan?
<dholbach> and apart from that a group of people having a lot of fun and hanging out in #ubuntu-motu :)
<kalon34> QUESTION: Is there somewhere with the process to follow or can you describe it please ?
<dholbach> mruiz: I'm not quite sure I understand the question. We do have people mentoring MOTU hopefuls. What is your exact question? If we have a strict plan to do the mentoring?
<elkbuntu> kalon34, please ask future questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
<dholbach> kalon34: i'll answer this question and then go on to explain how to get there.
<dholbach> mruiz: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors might answer your question, if not, please ask again
* dholbach goes on
<kalon34> sorry, elkbuntu, I'm losed with all my windows ^^
<kalon34> thanks dholbach :)
<dholbach> I personally always found the second way (to work on existing packages) to be much easier and you learn a lot along the way. As a MOTU hopeful you're not allowed yet to upload to the archive yourself, but you can ask other team members to sponsor the upload for you. We have a lightweight process for that in place.
<elkbuntu> <rmjb> QUESTION: How can someone who is not yet an MOTU help with the merging / syncing process? Isn't a MOTU always needed for this?
<dholbach> rmjb: that might also answer your question: we do sponsoring, which means that somebody who has upload rights already reviews your patch or package and then does the upload for you
<rmjb> cool
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: dholbach, I don't know that you have people mentoring MOTU. Can you explain it?
<dholbach> mruiz: if you look at the page I mentioned to you, you will find a list of people and mail adresses there
<dholbach> mruiz: just mail anybody of them - all of them are happy to take on MOTU hopefuls to walk them through the basic first steps in the MOTU world
<mruiz> thanks, dholbach
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> It's easy to see that it's not just a matter of technically abilty, but also a matter of teamwork and trust. The current process asks you to become an Ubuntu member in the Community Council meeting (where you are recognized for your efforts) and become a member of 'ubuntu-dev' after the Technical Board was happy with you on a technical basis. That process will change in the near future and a MOTU council (let's see if it will be called
<dholbach>  'Council Grayskull' in the end...), which will do the approval.
<mruiz> dholbach, I will check it
<dholbach> mruiz: Anything you're intersted in particularly?
<dholbach> some kind of package (or group of packages) or something you'd like to look after?
<mruiz> dholbach, desktop packages are so interesting
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> be sure to tell me what your plans are and we'll figure something out
<dholbach> maybe in a mail
<dholbach> (Keep the questions coming...)
<dholbach> Here some things the MOTUs do:
<dholbach> We work on Bugs, so just to put some numbers into the discussion
<dholbach>  * 10563 bugs in Universe/Multiverse    (66274 in Ubuntu total)
<dholbach>  * 6739 closed bugs Universe/Multiverse (46063 closed in Ubuntu total)
<dholbach> While the numbers look scary, here's a very good thing about working with the MOTUs: you're not alone. If you try to fix a bug in a package you have:
<dholbach>  1) team members,
<dholbach>  2) the Debian maintainer and
<dholbach>  3) the upstream author
<dholbach> you can ask and work with. Working on bugs is highly rewarding: sometimes it's a one line fix, you find in the upstream CVS already and you make a lot of users happy.
<dholbach> <LKRaider> QUESTION: Do all upstream packages go through MOTU before entering the repos?
<dholbach> LKRaider: No, we inherit an awful lot of packages from Debian automatically.
<LKRaider> ok
<dholbach> LKRaider: in the times where we're not in Freeze times (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule will show), we automatically sync the source from Debian packages (if we don't have changes that might get overwritten)
<elkbuntu> <rmjb> QUESTION: what ubuntu mailing lists should a MOTU Hopeful subscribe to other than ubuntu-motu?
<dholbach> so sometimes you upload a new package to ubuntu and in the next cycle there's a debian maintainer you can merge your efforts with
<dholbach> it's really to cool to have another somebody to work with on the package, so that's great
<dholbach> rmjb: good question, ubuntu-devel-announce@ and ubuntu-devel@ are good fits also, because it's good to know what's planned, which big changes are going to be introduced, etc
<dholbach> I'd also recommend to read  feisty-changes@  which send you a mail for every package change that is uploaded
<dholbach> these are only changelogs, but still you get a general gist of what's going on - so if you have packages that you need to integrate yours with, you can easily find out what happened there
<dholbach> apart from that it brings a certain learning experience to see what other package maintainers do
<dholbach> and then of course upstream mailing lists, so if you're package maintainer for say abiword, you might want to sign up for their lists too
<dholbach> I'm subscribed to loads of other mailing lists too, but that should be a good start and not be too scary :-)
* dholbach goes on
<dholbach> TEAMS
<dholbach> MOTU has formed a huge bunch of subteams already:
<dholbach>  * Games team
<dholbach>  * Media team
<dholbach>  * Science team
<dholbach>  * Photo team
<dholbach>  * UncommonProgrammingLanguages team
<dholbach> and a lot of other teams, which started in Universe, but now are working across the whole distro, the Mono team is a good example for that. If you have good ideas for a team and want to kickstart it, let me know: dholbach@ubuntu.com
<elkbuntu> <jorgp> QUESTION:does Edgy MOTU get version bumps and updates or are the versions locked in the same way main is?
<dholbach> jorgp: Edgy is released, which means it is LOCKED.
<dholbach> We currently work on Feisty.
<dholbach> of course you get security fixes in   edgy-security
<dholbach> and high-profile bug fixes in   edgy-updates
<dholbach> (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates has more info about that one)
<dholbach> and specific backports in   edgy-backports
<dholbach> <pradeep> QUESTION: Is uploading packages a one time activity for a release? I mean can I build a new package or a new version for an existing package for edgy/dapper now?
<dholbach> pradeep: I'm not quite sure I understand. You can't upload to Edgy or Dapper now. They're both released.
<dholbach> Which means they're locked. Frozen.
<dholbach> pradeep: Can you elaborate or does that answer your question?
<elkbuntu> <pradeep> oops i think the question is repeated ... :/
<pradeep> dholbach, yes that answers my question.
<dholbach> pradeep: Alrighty
<dholbach> Mentoring
<dholbach> We're doing huge efforts at helping people get up to scratch on packaging, especially #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net is always buzzing and somebody is always awake to answer *your* packaging question.
<dholbach> But mentoring also happens on our ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, in private chats, by doing reviews of packages and patches or via mail. Don't hesitate to approach us, join the Master of the Universe today! :-)
<dholbach> ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu )
<dholbach> Something we do at the moment: Merges
<dholbach> In the beginning of each release cycle we merge our efforts with those of the Debian maintainers. So this is what we currently do for Feisty. If you want to help out, just grab a merge from http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html or http://merges.ubuntu.com/multiverse.html and go ahead.
<dholbach> Any more questions?
<elkbuntu> not currently
<dholbach> there's the MOTU School
<dholbach> In the spirit of the Ubuntu's Open Week we already had some interesting MOTU School sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School - if you want to hold a session or request a session, let us know on the mailing list and on the wiki pages.
<elkbuntu> jorgp> QUESTION: you said security updates make it into edgy release, what about bug fixes?
<dholbach> so if you look at named page, you'll find that we did some sessions already and there are really good logs you can just dive into
<dholbach> jorgp: I said that high-profile bugs go into edgy-updates
<dholbach> if we look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates the requirements are:
<dholbach> Stable release updates will, in general, only be issued in order to fix high-impact bugs. Examples of such bugs include:
<dholbach>     *
<dholbach>       Bugs which may, under realistic circumstances, directly cause a security vulnerability
<dholbach>     *
<dholbach>       Bugs which represent severe regressions from the previous release of Ubuntu
<dholbach>     *
<dholbach>       Bugs which may, under realistic circumstances, directly cause a loss of user data
<dholbach> if you look at the page some more, that our policy is very strict
<dholbach> that's for a reason - some of you might remember the problems with the X server updates that left people without X and just a black screen and wonky messages
<elkbuntu> how could i forget
<dholbach> but as I said, we 1) don't rule out such updates and 2) have backports which are less conservative but of course we can't packages that require too intrusive changes
<dholbach> jorgp: does that answer your question?
<elkbuntu> <mruiz> QUESTION: dholbach, you told us that MOTU also works in bugs... what is the difference between MOTU and Bug Squad team?
<kalon34> how to forget it, anxious behind our pc ^^
<dholbach> mruiz: the BugSquad helps out to triage bugs, which means: 1) get more information from the reporter, 2) get the right people involved with the bug and so on
<dholbach> of course MOTUs do that too and we have people who are active on both fronts
<dholbach> but MOTUs actively work on packages and fix them themselves
<jorgp> dholbach, yes
<dholbach> MOTUs also introduce bugs
<dholbach> no, I was kidding about the last point ;-)
<dholbach> of course they don't
* dholbach hugs all the MOTUs in the room
<dholbach> MOTUs: please speak up if you're here and tell us something about you
<dholbach> More questions?
<elkbuntu> i'll copy them over if they come up
<dholbach> Ok, let's move on: Documentation!
<dholbach> Jordan Mantha (Laserjock) and others have worked hard on the Packaging Guide, but he'd always be glad to have people who are interested in explaining and helping new MOTU hopefuls to find their way into the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation lists a few pages of interest.
<elkbuntu> <LKRaider> QUESTION: what about introducing packges that are not on Debian, for example?
<dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html is the link to the packaging guide
<dholbach> so if you want to help out with that, especially if you don't understand certain sections or would like explain some bits some more, let us know
<dholbach> I'll finish the documentation point, then get back to you LKRaider
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and its subpages could also do with some helping hands. MOTU is a community effort and has grown into all sorts of directions over time, the wiki pages bear witness of that, so it'd be great if you'd fix whatever documentation you found inaccurate.
<dholbach> I know that's probably not a task for newcomers, but the same thing applies here: if you don't understand documentation or it seems broken to you: let us know - just drop a mail on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com and we'll fix it
<dholbach> LKRaider: we add new packages that are not in Debian all the time
<dholbach> there's no problem with that, it's just nice if you find a RFP (request for package) or ITP (intent to package) in Debian's bug database, that you follow up on the bug and say something along the lines of:
<dholbach> "hey guys, I have the package ready, please comment on it and try to get it into debian if you like"
<dholbach> because you then have additional people to talk to and work with
<dholbach> and that's what we all rely on
<dholbach> LKRaider: does that answer your question or do you want to know some more?
<LKRaider> so the work is always synched back to Debian?
<dholbach> we try to do our best, sometimes it's not easy because we didn't do a transition that debian did already or the other way around
<dholbach> for example debian decided to stick with gnome 2.14 for their release and have 2.16 in experimental
<dholbach> we're working on 2.17 already
<dholbach> and then there are other decisions that just don't match
<dholbach> but there's a patches mailing list, which automatically send the patch when the upload happens
<dholbach> and then there are maintainers working together closely
<dholbach> we have collaboration on different levels
<dholbach> LKRaider: interested in that some more? or does that answer the question basically?
<LKRaider> it does, thank you :)
<dholbach> alrighty
<dholbach> So who of you could imagine joining the MOTUs at some point?
<dholbach> not now, not tomorrow, but in the near future?
<mruiz> me!
* rmjb is hopeful
<LKRaider> me (maybe) :)
<pradeep> me too .. at some point
<Neonightmare> me also, i do what i can
<jorgp> me
<dholbach> rock and roll, that's nice to hear
* Lure is considering
* elkbuntu can picture dholbach on the other side of the internet doing the Mr Burns 'Eeeeeexcellent'
<vicox> me too
<dholbach> super
<zilo_> me
<elkbuntu> rmjb> QUESTION: so the process is 1. get ubuntu membership, 2. get ubuntu-dev membership, 3. get ubuntu-motu membership?
<dholbach> so if you haven't done already - try to pick somebody from the mentors list and ask them for help if you need
<zilo_> It's interesting working with such a big team
<dholbach> rmjb: drop the 3rd point. ubuntu-dev means MOTU
<dholbach> rmjb: there's only ubuntu-core-dev to go for afterwards, which means upload rights to main and restricted too
<rmjb> okay, got that now
<dholbach> alrighy
<dholbach> who here finds the whole idea of joining the MOTU still intimidating or not easy to achieve?
<zilo_> So if I wan't to put mu own program into ubuntu it is possible right?
<dholbach> zilo_: absolutely
<dholbach> zilo_: if you need help with the packaging, ask in #ubuntu-motu or on the mailing list
<juliux> ist (/msg ChanServ HELP LEVEL
<zilo_> ok
<dholbach> cool
<mruiz> if someone can help you, I think that must be easy to join MOTU team
<dholbach> it absolutely is - the huge list of merges is a good start and we have a good motu school session about that one already
<dholbach> If you want to join the MOTU and help making Universe ROCK, start here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<dholbach> and remember: http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/motu.png
<rmjb> lol
<LKRaider> haha
<mruiz> lol
<Neonightmare> ;-)
<kalon34> lol, very good dholbach ^^ ;)
<dholbach> If there's no more question I think we should let the room settle down for the next session, which is about KDE, I believe.
<Neonightmare> big thx
<zilo_> :D
<kalon34> thanks a lot for your explanations
<mruiz> thanks dholbach
<Bourlotieris> thank you
<cs_studen1> thx, great session
<Neonightmare> cu in #ubunut-motu ...
<dholbach> it was a big pleasure
<mruiz> dholbach, next week I will contact you
<dholbach> Rock On! :)
<mruiz> bye...
<LKRaider> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> anytime
<jorgp> thanks dholbach, great work
<rmjb> thanks dholbach, great session... and salesmanship
<Maikel> when does the next session start?
<dholbach> haha
<elkbuntu> see, i told you all he was cool :)
<elkbuntu> Maikel, soon
<rmjb> is imbrandon here?
<Maikel> thanks
<elkbuntu> not quite yet :|
<Maikel> how late is it in UTC?
<lumpki> 17:00 utc
<anschel> almost
<lumpki> what's next?
<elkbuntu> kubuntu
<Maikel> when the session starts is someone gonna set a special chan mode?
<anschel> who's leading "Kubuntu"
<anschel> ?
<Maikel> - Brandon Holtsclaw
<elkbuntu> aka, imbrandon
<anschel> thnx
<imbrandon> gooooooooood morning everyone ( now that my internet is working correctly )
<nixternal> mornin' sir
<ma1kel> morning
<imbrandon> how are we doing? anyone here to talk shop about kubuntu ?
<LKRaider> *afternoon ;)
<TheGateKeeper> ok guys
<nixternal> 48 minutes before noon ;)
<TheGateKeeper> I like kubuntu but what has motivated me to look to another distro is that you if you upgrade there is a more than reasonable chance the system will break, a clean install (seems to be required) & (k)ubuntu is slow when compared to other distros like arch. So my question is there anything you can do to address these issues?
<nixternal> ya imbrandon
<nixternal> you are ;p
<elkbuntu> ok everyone. lets keep qustions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
<nixternal> i just realised i am great at editing existing web pages, but suck when it comes to creating them from scratch
<nixternal> doh..thought we were elsewhere...so sorry
<elkbuntu> unless imbrandon is happy for a free-for-all in here, of course?
<imbrandon> TheGateKeeper: yea we even developers hate that about a transition , we are working very very hard so that is no longer the case
<kalon34> good evening imbrandon
<imbrandon> ok since i'm running a little late we'll just skip right to the Q & A , if you would keep those to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and nixternal and elkbuntu will paste them in here
<imbrandon> sound good?
<imbrandon> TheGateKeeper: but yes, that is a major issue, and is very high priority to have fixed from this release onwards
<kalon34> maybe could you shortly describe what are you doing in Kubuntu, imbrandon ?
<TheGateKeeper> imbrandon, I get the feeling, may be incorrectly, that upgrading from breezy --> dapper is likely to be safer/more successfull than dapper --> edgy?
<imbrandon> TheGateKeeper: currently , that is the case , unfortunately
<imbrandon> ok kalon34
<kalon34> thanks :)
<imbrandon> well , My Name is Brandon Holtsclaw, I'm one of the ubuntu Core Developers that work on Kubuntu, no i'm not paid by canonical, My main goals are to have devices in kubuntu "just work" like when you plugin your Zune or iPod it works etc etc etc
<imbrandon> along with that
<nixternal> [   anschel]  QUESTION: How did you decide which KDE programs to use (konversation, konqueror, etc.) and    jordi which "generic" ones (openoffice)
<imbrandon> I mostly maintain Amarok and Konversation in Kubuntu and touch alot of other projects along the way ( like mythtv etc ), and work very closely with people like hobbsee , Riddell , Tonio etc
<imbrandon> daily to make Kubuntu what it si :)
<nixternal> that was a really goofy paste
<anschel> imbrandon?
<imbrandon> anschel: well durring Kubuntu meetings ( that have been sus[ended untill after the holidays ) we look at what apps we use by default, we try to use the best kde app for the job whenever humanly possible
<kalon34> yes, I saw your name in Amarok uploads in edgy and feisty-changes-request ^^
<nixternal> anschel: one sec, im sure he is hitting the mt. dew ;)
<imbrandon> as far as the openoffice, that really is the only "generic" app and we're working closely with the koffice guys to get koffice 2 by default, the reason its not now it simple it wont support MS office formats
<nixternal> ma1kel]  QUESTION: What's are the major prioritys for the next Kubuntu release?
<imbrandon> ma1kel: there are ALOT of things we're going to be working on, but as far as "overall" we're really looking to take the inovation and bold new things we put in in edgy and make them polished into a smooth system, really put some polish and clean up the rough edges
<nixternal> another question in 5s
<Lure> ma1kel: also update-manager to make upgrades more robust
<nixternal> [   kalon34]  QUESTION : It's more personal, but how can you do such important things in Kubuntu and not    jorgp working at Canonical ?
<imbrandon> Lure: right on
<nixternal> ahh. i know the paste problem now
<imbrandon> kalon34: i'm not sure what your asking but , i think its "how can i do important things in kubuntu without working for canonical?" if thats correct of me, then i have to say Canonical underites Ubuntu and its projects like Kubuntu but I'm part of the community and a Core Developer and just made my way through the processes, you dont have to work for Canonical to become a Core Developer or even a MOTU or just contribute
<imbrandon> if you ment something diffrent feel free to ask again
<nixternal> kalon34: i believe even deeper, a majority of us enjoy working for free to create freedom
<kalon34> no, I was that.
<nixternal> <nixternal>QUESTION: What are Kubuntu's plans for composite by default for 7.04?
* nixternal knows the answer, but everyone should know as well ;)
<imbrandon> nixternal: we wont be using a composite manager this round, we are waiting to see what kwin support ( it should have support ) in kde4
<imbrandon> so thats on track for the
<imbrandon> feisty+1 schedule if at all
<nixternal> \o/ YAY! Thanks bud
<poningru> someone update the topic please
<nixternal> dholbach: could you update the topic?
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* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o dholbach]  by dholbach
<nixternal> rmjb]  QUESTION: Since Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the same "underneath" where does Ubuntu end and Kubuntu begin?
<kalon34> nixternal: yes, me too as a bugsquad member, support answerer and french translator, but I know it takes some time to do this in a good way, so I imagine a developper invest more time, and I think it is difficult.
<imbrandon> BTW just as a side note , Kubuntu is always looking for contributors , you dont have to be a "Core" dev etc to help out, just stop by on irc and we'll always point you in the right direction
<imbrandon> nixternal is a poster child for a none coder helping :)
<imbrandon> ( thats a good thing )
<nixternal> adding to what imbrandon just said: if you can't code, document ;)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o dholbach]  by ChanServ
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* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o dholbach]  by dholbach
<imbrandon> ok rmjb question
<imbrandon> where does ubuntu end and kubuntu begin, thats kinda a fuzzy line, but mostly its in the default setting of the desktop programs and the selection of them
<imbrandon> the "core" and the core goals stay the same
<imbrandon> like getting it all on one cd , the the beleifs etxc
<imbrandon> if you
<imbrandon> are on the tech side of the house it ends at "ubuntu-desktop' and kubuntu-desktop packages
<imbrandon> thats how we make those choices
<imbrandon> so the base system "ubuntu-base" is still exactly the same untouched
<nixternal> lotusleaf]  QUESTION: Kdar will not install in Edgy (and some have said it doesn't install in feisty, will Feisty include Kdar, if not, what will replace it?
<imbrandon> lotusleaf: if it wont install at all that is a bug and should be address with a SRU foe edgy ( some things slip through the cracks unfortunately ) and durring the release cycle of feisty it will be installable
<imbrandon> so for now i dont beleave we are looking for a replacement
<nixternal> Bourlotie]  QUESTION: Would you rather be a Canonical employee and work full time on Kubuntu? Do you think that this would make your work more efficiently?
<WB|Diego> hi
<nixternal> imbrandon: lotusleaf pasted a bug as well - maybe look into it further after the show if possible
<imbrandon> Bourlotieris: personaly this is a hard question, I would love to work for canonical sometime , but on that other side of that I have a great job that my company fully supports FLOSS and they let me take time in my day to work on kubuntu some
<imbrandon> and i spend a whole lot of free time on it too
* nixternal notes A LOT of time for imbrandon 
<imbrandon> but "would i LIKE to" yes i think its every techies dream to do something they love for a living
<nixternal> <siretart> when is kde4 scheduled for release?
<imbrandon> siretart: there isnt a "hard" schedule atm but they are shooting for about the end of the feisty cycle for an "official" / "final" release, thus we are looking at it for feisty+1
<imbrandon> but will have the librarys and snapshots in feisty
<imbrandon> ( they are in the repos now )
<nixternal> if kde4 comes out during the end or right after the release of feisty, will we backport?
<imbrandon> KDE from what i understand is looking to make KDE4 releases time based like GNOME ones so distros like us can count on certain times
<imbrandon> if thats a 6 month table or not is yet to be seen
<imbrandon> nixternal: not officialy, it might end up on kubuntu.org for early adopters
<nixternal> thanks
<nixternal> anschel]  QUESTION: If KDE is on a different schedule from Gnome will Kubuntu Still come out every six months?
<imbrandon> anschel: yes, definately , for the forseable future we have no plans on splitting the kubuntu/ubuntu releases, there has been talk about it in the past but it would not help us or our users or upstream to doso at the moment
<nixternal> <nixternal> QUESTION: would you happen to know the current status of Kubuntu Herd 1?
<imbrandon> afaik its right on time, the first disk release of a devel cycle is always a bit shakey as they need to work out things like the D-I etc etc , but everything is going right on as planned in the FeistyReleaseSchedule afaik
<imbrandon> also that brings up
<imbrandon> if you would like to help our semi-orginised testing efferts you are more than welcome to
<nixternal> [      rmjb]  QUESTION: how is Kubuntu art handled?
<imbrandon> join #kubuntu-testers and test things like the Herd 1 release etc , and give feedback directly to us
<kalon34> :/join #ubuntu-testers
<imbrandon> rmjb: since Dapper kubuntu Artwork has been handeled by Ken Weimer ( kwwii on irc ) , he has done a bangup job imho and has been asked to come back this cycle also, he works with input ( and sample art from the community ) and makes sure its smooth in the distro
<kalon34> oups, sorry ^^
<imbrandon> BUT also this time nuno will be joining kwwii , they will share the AiC title for Feisty
<rmjb> AiC/
<rmjb> ?
<imbrandon> rmjb: Artist in Cheif, a role choose by Mark Shuttleworth each cycle for ubuntu and kubuntu ( they are both paid Canonical Contractors )
<rmjb> cool, thanks
<nixternal> [ lotusleaf]  QUESTION: Do you have any plans to throw new releases of Amarok, Koffice, etc. into one directory so additional entries for new versions between each don't have to be manually added to sources.list each time, and instead can be checked for updates? maybe a bleeding edge or beta repo, so only one line is added and remains for all new bleeding edge builds? (rather than adding amarok, koffice, etc. individual lines each tim
<nixternal> let me know if that all pasted
<imbrandon> nixternal: yes it did ....
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> have fun reading that one ;p
<imbrandon> lotusleaf: i know we are going to "clean up" kubuntu.org repos , but for the mostpart we are working with the backports team more closely now and you will see alot more of that in official backports
<imbrandon> but all in all , yes it will hapen one way or another
<Lure> lotusleaf: Riddell kind of preffer to have it separated...
<imbrandon> Lure: right but ther is always "amarok-latest" etc
<imbrandon> :)
<nixternal> next?
<imbrandon> yea
<nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: how large is the core kubuntu team right now?
<Lure> imbrandon: problem is that we would need something like "kubuntu-backports" (half-official)
<nixternal> [  poningru]  1 <--he made a funny
<imbrandon> LKRaider: ummm if i'm not missing anyone 4 to 5 , Riddell , Lure, Myself , Tonio and ......
<imbrandon> Lure: ^^ help me out on that one
<nixternal> Raphink
<imbrandon> ahh yes raphink
<Lure> imbrandon: 3-4 core-dev's (Riddell, Tonio_, imbrandon, raphink) that work some on kubunut
<Lure> some -> most ;-)
<nixternal> kubunut, is that a new release? ;p
<imbrandon> but we have some dedicated MOTU's also like Hobbsee and Nixternal
<imbrandon> but all in all MOTU's + Core-Developers we numnber in less than 10
* nixternal isn't really a MOTU yet, but I play one on IRC
<imbrandon> nixternal: ...... next ? heh
<Lure> imbrandon: and there are active upstream supporters (SIme_, sebas, toma...) and debian (allee, fabo...)
<nixternal> they are quiet
<poningru> :p
<nixternal> imbrandon: anschel wonders how he can join the kubuntu cult?
<LaserJock> sacrifice some C++ on the kdelibs alter?
<LaserJock> just kidding
<nixternal> heh
<imbrandon> anschel: well the best way at the moment since its not really documents and i just realized that is ....
<imbrandon> LaserJock: hahah
<imbrandon> anschel: hang out in these three IRC channells and start asking for "jr jobs" #kubuntu-devel ( where we work on the core kubuntu ) #kubuntu-testers and #ubuntu-motu
<imbrandon> ^^ thats for the coding side
<Lure> anschel: just drop in #kubuntu-devel and talk
<imbrandon> if you want something non coding nixternal can fill you in
<nixternal> there will be plenty of non-coding work starting soon
<nixternal> [ lotusleaf]  QUESTION: will Kubuntu ever have Cinelerra?
<imbrandon> BTW everyone , nixternal is our helpfull Kubuntu Doc guy that works relentlessly on the Ubuntu Doc team
<sid> How many core kubuntu devs are there?(full time?)
<Lure> imbrandon: and on great release announcements!
<imbrandon> lotusleaf: I hosnestly am not even aware of that program , but we are always open to sugestions and go through the sugestion list semi often
<Lure> sid: 1
<sid> And how many core gnome devs?
<imbrandon> sid: well 3 , one paid ( for kubuntu )
<imbrandon> full time
<imbrandon> and ubuntu there are about 10 to 15 , depending on the day
<imbrandon> :)
<Lure> lotusleaf: you may want to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates/Kubuntu
<imbrandon> Lure: yes i was just looking for the url, add it to that please lotusleaf
<imbrandon> sid: full time core devs for kubuntu is myself ( community ) tonio ( community ) and riddell ( canonical )
<nixternal> <nixternal> QUESTION: will Kubuntu continue calling itsel the GNU/Linux distro for everyone? (emphasis on GNU/Linux since Ubuntu doesn't state that)
<imbrandon> yes officialy , and no personaly
<imbrandon> haha if that makes sense
<sid> Does it say GNU/Linux on the website anywhere?
<sid> I think this is important also.
<nixternal> i got you imbrandon
<imbrandon> sid: on the kubuntu.org website , yes
<imbrandon> sid: but there is differing opinons on weather the GNU/ should stay
<sid> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/sunfire
<sid> It says GNU/Linux on some parts of Ubuntu.com, but not on the main page.(where it counts)
<imbrandon> sid: correct and IMHO it /shouldent/ but thats something thats just my opinoin and should be left to the CC
<imbrandon> man , so many typo's today
<nixternal> good job nonetheless mr brandon
<kalon33> thanks for chatting with us and reply to our questions imbrandon
<nixternal> questions have stopped it seems, how about a nice exit quote to make people feel all tingly inside?
<imbrandon> sid: stay tuned to my blog as to why IMHO we should not have GNU/ listed in the name, i'll post my personal opinon today sometime
<imbrandon> yup we are out of time it seems
<Bourlotieris> Thank you
<imbrandon> everyone feel free to email me imbrandon@kubuntu.org with any other questions and i'll try to blog about them or get back to you
<imbrandon> everyone have a great day and rember "Kubuntu for president!!' :)
<kalon33> imbrandon:  yes I think, but on the doc team mailing list matthew east asked someone to replace you, and I haven't seen a positive reply.
<kalon33> *to replace him
<imbrandon> kalon33: yea i'm not sure about that situation but i think matt is moving on to other things
<imbrandon> not sure 100%
<LaserJock> I'm here to do the Doc Team presentation
<imbrandon> ok LaserJock , its all yours
* imbrandon steps down from the soapbox
<lumpki> thanks imbrandon and the kubuntu team
<LaserJock> ok, can I get a Question tracker volunteer? :-)
<sid> Will there be an option in Feisty to only install free software? So as I'm going through the installer I can go somewhere(advanced options?) and check "Only free software", so it doesn't use binary blobs or anything non-free.
<kalon33> if you want so ^^
<nixternal> LaserJock: i can do it if you would like
<LaserJock> nixternal: that would be cool, thanks. Also pipe in when you want. We might need to tag-team this one
<ma1kel> whats matthew east's nickname?
<LaserJock> mdke
<LaserJock> Matthew East is not able to make the doc team session so I'm filling in
<ma1kel> ah thanks
<sid> imbrandon: You post to planet.ubuntu*?
<nixternal> \o/ YAY LaserJock
<LaserJock> Welcome everybody!
<nixternal> sid: yes he does
<sid> k
<kalon33> nice that you replace him LaserJock
<LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha
<LaserJock> and I'm a member of the doc team
<zilo_> Hello LaserJock
<LaserJock> so lets get started with what exactly the doc team is
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<LaserJock> the Ubuntu Documentation Team is composed of people from Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu
<LaserJock> who all share a goal of creating the best documentation for Ubuntu (as a whole) that we can
<LaserJock> it is *entirely* community run (there is nobody paid to work on the Doc Team)
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* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o nixternal]  by ChanServ
<LaserJock> The core team is https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc but many others contribute to documentation all the time. To find out how to communicate with us, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
<LaserJock> There are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces. The ultimate reference page for any information is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<LaserJock> 1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called Docbook XML, and is hosted in our repository.
<LaserJock> 2. Online documentation - composed of an html version of (1), and a community driven wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community)
<nixternal> NOTE: System Documentation is also installed on your system (read Help)
<LaserJock> yes, the System Documentation is what we ship on the CD
<LaserJock> and is found in the help systems
<LaserJock> right now it's composed of a series of guides
<LaserJock> we have the Desktop Guide
<LaserJock> Server Guide
<LaserJock> Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> and then you also have things like "About Ubuntu" and Release Notes
<LaserJock> OK, so how does one contribute to the system documentation?
<LaserJock> Diving in and trying things out is the best way to begin getting involved.
<LaserJock> Download our repository, and start getting familiar with the markup language by reading and editing some existing documents. We have a validation tool included which will tell you where there is an error in the document markup. If you are confused, you can ask in #ubuntu-doc or on the mailing list, and you will generally get some help, but you should be patient!
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects shows a list of projects
<nixternal> let me know when you are ready to field a question
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository will show you how to get the Subversion repository
<LaserJock> and get you started with editing
<LaserJock> nixternal: sure I'll take it
<nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: how does the doc team work with internationalization teams?
<LaserJock> well, I'll talk more about that later, but the basics are we create templates for the docs that are put on Rosetta for the translation teams to work on
<LaserJock> and then we gather the translations and put then in the documentation packages
<LaserJock> we have been very careful to "freeze" our docs early enough that translators have a decent amount of time to translate
<LaserJock> ok, so some easy areas to contribute with system documentation:
<LaserJock> Proof reading is a good way to get involved. Also, we have a number of bugs open about typos, errors, omissions, which you can try and fix. See https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bugs and https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bugs (in the latter link substitute ubuntu-docs with xubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs if interested in that variant!)
<LaserJock> Some of the key tasks for the system documentation are:
<LaserJock> 1. Improving the navigability and readability of the help (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp).
<LaserJock> 2. Incorporating material from the Official Ubuntu Book into appropriate sections in the system documentation, amending the style accordingly.
<LaserJock> 3. Addressing areas which are missing from the documentation, in particular by reviewing material on the wiki/forum/mailing lists and converting it to docbook for inclusion in the system documentation (there is a good tool for doing this conversion).
<LaserJock> 4. Updating existing information which is no longer valid due to inclusion of new features in Feisty.
<LaserJock> OK, I'd like to open it up for questions about system documentation
<nixternal> <nixternal> QUESTION: can you explain the Topic Based Help
<LaserJock> heh, loaded questions, I love it!
* nixternal fills in
<LaserJock> traditionally we have shipped discrete "guides"
<LaserJock> where each guide has a specific target audience and set of topics
<LaserJock> more like a book, essentially
<LaserJock> but it makes it hard for users to get what they want
<LaserJock> they aren't interested in reading a book as much as they are interested in learning about a specific topic
<LaserJock> so we are working on rearranging the contents of our guide to reflect that
<LaserJock> in fact it should look a quite a bit like the help wiki main page
<LaserJock> http://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<sid> Would the non-free software in Ubuntu fall under system documentation? or no?
<sid> like binary blob/binary codec wrapper stuff
<LaserJock> depends on what you mean
<sid> Are there any templates for explaining to users the pitfalls of non-free software?(ie binary blobs/binary codec wrappers etc) Explaining to them how their data is locked into a format that helps the developers of the format make more money? Or what direction will the non-free software aspect of Ubuntu go?
<LaserJock> we do document non-free codecs, etc.
<sid> Well I'm talking about the education stuff for feisty
<sid> Is there a design for that yet? Or is it too early?
<LaserJock> we don't quite have as much on education
<LaserJock> but I'm sure that will come along
<nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: any plans of introducing more context sensitive help on the system?
<nixternal> i think that leads back to Topic Based Help if I'm not mistaken
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> LKRaider: the answer to that is basically, we'd like to but we are also bound by the help systems provided by upstreams
<LaserJock> so right now we'd like to do more, but Gnome and KDE haven't developed their topic based help systems yet
<LaserJock> LKRaider: does that somewhat answer your question?
<LKRaider> It does. I would like to see a help tightly integrated into the system tho :)
<LaserJock> yes, we would too
<LaserJock> right now there are technical reasons why that isn't so easy
<LaserJock> one is licensing
<LaserJock> one is a system to actual integrate, the Gnome and KDE help systems aren't so great for that
<sid> LaserJock: Do you have an opinion on the direction the non-free documentation should go? Will the text be worded so the users want to not use non-free software at all? Meaning they won't want to save their home movies in .wmv, or more strong would be they don't accept .doc files in their email and only accept odf? In your opinion how strong should the documentation be in favor of open standards and free/libre software? Or should it just make them 
<LaserJock> heh
* nixternal despises documenting non-free and will refuse to do so
<sid> If that cut off let me know, my last word was "exists?"
<LaserJock> ok, well some of that will certainly depend on what the Ubuntu Technical Board does with some of the issues we face in Feisty
<sid> Not sure the char limit per message on freenode.
<LaserJock> sid: my cut off at "just make them"
<LaserJock> but to be honest, our job is to document the Ubuntu project and not so much to make policy decisions
<LaserJock> we do have to decide how we handle certain things
<sid> Or should itjust make them aware of the non-free software, just so they know it exists?
<LaserJock> for instance we have chosen to try to use GUI tool wherever possible in our documentation
<LaserJock> I'm almost certain we will at least show the user the choices
<LaserJock> and explain why certain things are non-free
<nixternal> excellent
<LaserJock> we already do that a fair amount with the restricted codecs
<LaserJock> so I don't see that changing
<LaserJock> but to be honest that's really not a big deal
<LaserJock> the vast majority of our work has nothing to do with free vs non-free
<LaserJock> LKRaider: can you ask you question here real quick
<LKRaider> About the Ubuntu book, was it done by the doc team? Are there plans for releasing other books? (like a server book)
<LaserJock> The Ubuntu Book was not done by the doc team
<nixternal> NOTE: a majority of our System Documentation documents the standard or default applications that are installed on the CD. Our wiki on the other hand is community created
<LaserJock> a few of hte members of the doc team were among the authors
<LaserJock> but the publisher sought them out
<nixternal> [    Rondom]  QUESTION: The wiki is rather unstructured. I don't know where to start. Are there any plans on a clean structure (categories like hardware->soundcards->xyz-soundcard-article)?
<LaserJock> but the Official Ubuntu Book was released under a license that will allow us to integrate it into the doc team material
<LaserJock> which is very rare
<LaserJock> Ok, well rather then answering your question directly, let me now talk about the wiki docs
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> I might answer your question a little bit there
<LaserJock> and we'll return to it if you want more
<LaserJock> OK, so the wiki help is housed at help.ubuntu.com/community
<LaserJock> this again is a community run effort
<LaserJock> this wiki is open to everybody
<LaserJock> so it is a very easy way to start getting involved with documentation
<LaserJock> Simply log into the wiki (using your launchpad account), and correct errors you find in documents. Read existing documents to become familiar with the wiki markup, which is very simple.
<LaserJock> Above anything else, read the wiki guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.
<LaserJock> One way of becoming familiar with the material and how we work is to begin reading it and checking it for accuracy.
<LaserJock> A number of more substantial "wiki-tasks" (as well as a list of pages that need serious attention) are listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo.
<LaserJock> Some of the key tasks are:
<LaserJock> 1. Improve the self-maintainability of the wiki by introducing easy tools for quality assurance (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance). This spec needs ideas, discussion and eventually some code!
<LaserJock> 2. Doing quality assurance to ensure users are given reliable information and can quickly identify how reliable a page is.
<LaserJock> 3. Improving existing material and adding new material to the wiki, in particular drawing on the immense resources offered by the forums (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum)
<LaserJock> 4. Clarify the license of material on the wiki by convincing the Community Council to approve the year-old specification (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing).
<LaserJock> A long-term goal is to bring the system documentation and the online documentation closer and closer together, so that eventually it is easy for the system documentation to draw on contributions via the wiki, and (the other side of the coin)
<LaserJock> users to browse and search all of the available documentation via a single interface, be it via the online website or the system help viewer. This goal is rather a large one, and is essentially waiting on the right tools to come together.
<LaserJock> I'll let you read for a while
<LaserJock> and then feel free to ask any wiki questions
<Rondom> LaserJock: I read, maybe not enough, I'm actually looking for some wiki-team-mailing list for discussing things or some results of discussions that were already made
<LaserJock> ok, well the wiki team uses the doc team mailing list
<LaserJock> ubuntu-doc on lists.ubuntu.com
<Rondom> thx
<LaserJock> so feel free to introduce yourself and ask questions
<LaserJock> #ubuntu-doc is also a great place for quick questions
<LaserJock> if you are editing a wiki page and you're a little nervous about it you can always email the doc team and ask for a review
<nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: about porting stuff from the forums, do you have a team that does that, or just rely on users bringing the doc-work available there?
<LaserJock> there is a team
<LaserJock> composed of forum and doc team people
<nixternal> wiki forum team
<LaserJock> right now it's not very active
<LaserJock> as we are having licensing issues
<nixternal> rather inactive at this point, possibly a good time to get active with that
<LaserJock> one of the more complicated issues in documentation is licensing
<LaserJock> we are working towards have those worked out
<sid> Can't you just setup the forum so they agree to submit their docs under the GFDL?
<sid> And the wiki and whatever else.
<LaserJock> well, they are licensed under CC-SA
<LaserJock> I believe
<LaserJock> and the wiki doesn't currently have a license
<LaserJock> but it is proposed to be more of a Public Domain style
<sid> So can't you setup the wiki and forum and whatever else, so they can't submit unless they agree to put their works in the public domain?
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> the issue is you have potentially thousands of authors
<sid> Although I prefer CC-SA or GFDL as opposed to the public domain.
<leone8> Hello everybodyyyyy!!!!! :-)
<sid> Something about microsoft turning my documentation into non-freeness and then selling it makes me want to vomit.
<LaserJock> so right now what you can do is if you find a howto on the forums you want to put on the wiki
<LaserJock> you need to ask the author for permission to put it on the wiki
<leone8> I've seen that topic will be "Ubuntu ports"...What about?
<LaserJock> if we had compatible licenses we could do some "mass" moving of documentation
<LaserJock> leone8: check the Open Week page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<sid> Wikipedia does it the best imho, almost all of their work is under GFDL
<LaserJock> nixternal: you still here?
<nixternal> us[  LKRaider]  QUESTION: continuing on lumpki's question, the brazilian-doc-team have made their wiki pages signed by "maintainers", where users can turn to ask questions on the topic of the page to request help. What do you think of this idea?
<leone8> LaserJock thanks!! Now it's alright! :-)
<sid> The idea should be to promot more documentation(GFDL), just like promoting more free software(GPL). imho.
<nixternal> was waiting to post that
<LaserJock> did we get to lumpki's question
<nixternal> its up there somewhere
<nixternal> heh, guess i didn't
<LaserJock> sid: well, GFDL is often considered non-free so sometimes that's an issue
<nixternal> [    lumpki]  QUESTION: How can users identify how reliable a wiki page is?
<LaserJock> lumpki: well, right now it's pretty tough
<LaserJock> but that is an area we are keen on improving
<LaserJock> we'd sure welcome and suggestions or help
<nixternal> lumpki: it is tough, but if at all possible, people on the wiki team go through and test it. and then usually clean it up and post it for good..it would be nice to have a comments section on the bottom of each help page for people to say yes it worked or no im dead
<lumpki> or maybe a voting system
* nixternal notes it would rock to vote
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> lumpki: more info check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
<nixternal> hehe
<cgillogly> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<LaserJock> something like a "Did this page work for you?" kind of thing
<LaserJock> LKRaider: I don't think it would work to well on our scale
<LaserJock> ok, let me just wrap up here with a couple translation items
<LaserJock> If you are a translator, and are interested in helping out translating the Ubuntu documentation into your language, all you need to know is how to use the Rosetta translation system
<LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/rosetta
<LaserJock> You can find out how to use that on the Rosetta wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta.
<LaserJock> Once you have learnt all of this, the docteam documents can be found in several places:
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/kubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/xubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> OK, that's it for me
<LaserJock> and we're out of time
<LKRaider> there is still 1 minute! :P
<nixternal> thanks LaserJock, rockin' job!
* nixternal slips out for lunch in 5
<LaserJock> so I'd just encourage everybody to take a look at the Documentation Team
<ma1kel> my goverment rocks to be honest
<nixternal> 4, 3, 2, 1.....
<LKRaider> great presentation LaserJock
<bhtb1> tx!
<LaserJock> head over to #ubuntu-docs if you have more questions
<LaserJock> nixternal and I will be over there for a while
* LaserJock out
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> #ubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> Thanks Everybody!!
<nixternal> heh
<sid> thanks LaserJock
<LaserJock> darn
<nixternal> everyone just created a new channel
<LKRaider> heh
<nixternal> imbrandon: your turn again?
<LaserJock> oh, actually there isn't another session scheduled now
<sid> So nothing is scheduled now?
<nixternal> ahh, he removed it
<LKRaider> packaging?
<nixternal> sid: lunch is scheduled ;)
* nixternal eats
<LKRaider> packaging 101 was removed?
* sid opens up his e-lunch box with the hurd on it.
<LaserJock> so if anybody has any Ubuntu questions about anything we can chat a little
<ma1kel> when are you guys planning world domination?
* nixternal wonders when RMS will announce the end of Hurd development
<bhtb1> so is that 4 2nite?
<ma1kel> no
<ma1kel> theres another session
<ma1kel> in an hour
<sid> nixternal: The hurd is a good design, just extremely difficult to debug.
<bhtb1> tx
<LaserJock> ma1kel: I thought we were already planning world domination :-)
<stgraber> nixternal: Have you ever seen RMS announcing the end of a GNU project ?
<LKRaider> I know nothing about the Hurd
<sid> I think GNU/Solaris is going to pop up soon, it looks like Sun guys want to steal some thunder from "Linux"
<LaserJock> doesn't it already exist
<sid> On the Sun press release for java they had rms and Eben Moglen as guest speakers, and they refered to it as "GNU/Linux"(yes teh Sun CEO said GNU/Linux)
<LaserJock> bah
<sid> And on the website they said free/libre too, and not just open source. interesting imho
<ma1kel> I don't think the world needs another OS to code for
<LKRaider> Solaris is not GPL compatible, is it?
<tictacaddict> "Nexenta OS"
<sid> I think what they're going to do...is adopt GPLv3 for Solaris, and then talk about how everyone will be safe from patents because of v3, and Linux won't be apparently.
<ma1kel> well sid, cant you just make your own kernel project from the linux kernel?
<sid> http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/date/20061130
<ma1kel> so you make your own version of the kernel with gpl3
<sid> ma1kel: yes, but under GPLv2
<ma1kel> hmmm
<nixternal> stgraber: RMS recently said on a podcast that the Hurd project didn't have a great future ahead
<sid> ma1kel: Sun controls almost all the copyrights for Solaris, so they can license under GPlv3 and make people feel warm and cozy about being _safer_ from patents.
* nixternal lunch
<ma1kel> true
<sid> Linux(Linus) doesn't want to use GPLv3, and it would be very difficult if he did. It's really easy for Sun.
<sid> I think Sun is going to make a move on the free software community and try to seduce them.
<ma1kel> haha, reminds me of ELER strip
<ma1kel> *the
<sid> They're already started, the CEO says GNU/Linux...heh Who is he targetting with those words?
<sid> anyway, nothing but goodness here imho. competition is good and the bottom line is we're all sharing each others work and collaborating anyway. I think it's great.
<LKRaider> yep
<LKRaider> did any opensuse developers come to ubuntu openweek? ;D
<LaserJock> sid: regarding documentation of non-free stuff, I'm really not exactly sure what we'd document
<LaserJock> LKRaider: yeah, some
<LKRaider> cool :)
<LaserJock> but that really wasn't the goal of the Open Week
<LaserJock> I'm glad to see so many people show up
<LKRaider> there are non-free things in the commercial repo.
<ma1kel> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/sandals-not-flip-flops
<ma1kel> haha
<LaserJock> LKRaider: the Canonical repo?
<LKRaider> yes
<LaserJock> LKRaider: then that's Canonical's to document ;-)
<sid> LaserJock: Well does your doc team do the "education" part from feisty goals...or is that someone else?
<LKRaider> LaserJock: ;)
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> sid: we'll probably be doing a little bit (we do already)
<sid> sorry, my question wasn't clear
<jbailey> nixternal: If you want to ask about Hurd dev, wait for 45 minutes. =)
<LaserJock> LKRaider: we will certainly document the fact that the repo exists and what's in there
<LaserJock> LKRaider: but the documentation team leaves actually documenting an app to the app's authors mainly
<LKRaider> okay
<LaserJock> sid: the wiki is pretty open, people can do a fair amount there
<LaserJock> but we should really avoid being too controversial
<sid> LaserJock: eh, not a lot of people visit the wiki comparitively to the eyeballs that will see the education pop-up window for non-free software.
<LaserJock> ah, for specifically a pop-up the devs will write that
<sid> I'm concerned about the education pop-up that all *ubuntu users will see if/when they use non-free software.
<sid> There are lots of ways to word this thing.
<LaserJock> sure
<LKRaider> http://www.getgnulinux.org/
<sid> You could say "It's just a binary blob, it lets you play more movies"
<LaserJock> and I'm confident that the Technical Board and devs will word it well
<sid> or you could say "It's a proprietary blob, that lets the developers of it control people who put their data in these formats, and it helps them make more money."
<sid> Those are significantly different, and I see them both used on forums and other places.
<samgee> The first one is pretty useless, they should really emphasise freedom
<sid> I agree. freedom is key here.
<samgee> But that's pretty hard to say in a short message
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure how much they'll do
<LKRaider> "By installing this you are helping a big corporation monopoly. Do you want to proceed?"
<Rondom> lol
<samgee> mmh, we shouldn't be playing the anti-MS card either
<LaserJock> the vast majority of people won't care, I guess
<sid> Is there going to be a popup everytime a restricted format plays?
<LaserJock> no
<sid> And they have an option to "don't show this warning again" checkbox
<LaserJock> only the first time when you need to install the codec
<LaserJock> it's about installing, not using
<sid> eh, no one is going to remember
<LaserJock> right
<sid> Really all the formats are "restricted", except ogg(vorbis+theora), heh
<samgee> and Dirac
<sid> And even ogg(theora+vorbis) is probably restricted in certain instances
<samgee> and Flac :)
<LKRaider> "This software is untested and might pose security risks. Proceed?"
<LaserJock> but the education spec is about binary drivers, not codecs
<sid> o, it's only going to cover nvidia/fglrx?
<ma1kel> proceed, im so hardcore
<LKRaider> heh
<LKRaider> "This software kills kittens. Proceed?"
<ma1kel> ALWAYS
<samgee> lol
<sid> Too bad Realplayer or Quicktime didn't support Ogg(theora+vorbis) by default.
<ma1kel> VLC?
<sid> yea, that probably supports it.(on windows)
<sid> But Quicktime/Real Player have such a bigger market share, VLC isn't even worth mentioning at all when it comes to market share.
<LaserJock> sid: read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverEducation
<sid> The documentation Microsoft gave to the EU on thanksgiving covers wmv format iirc, I wonder if that will ever trickle down to the free software community.
<sid> You have to pay for the documentation. iirc
<ma1kel> What's 100 laywers on a sinking ship?
<sid> The EU and Microsoft will agree on a reasonable payment for the documentation for wmv/server protocols/other crap that they are being forced to document
<sid> ma1kel: what?
<LaserJock> sid: and for codec installation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EasyCodecInstallation
<ma1kel> a good begin
<sid> heh
<LaserJock> ok, I'm outta here
<LaserJock> thanks for hanging around everybody
<LKRaider> bye LaserJock !
* sid watches the Mac users join the channel and get ready to fight.
<sid> s/Mac/PowerPC/
<LKRaider> sid: what EU & MS docs?
<sid> LKRaider: check europa.eu
<sid> LKRaider: Microsoft has been fined almost a billion dollars so far..that case.
<sid> LKRaider: The EU isn't like USA, USA would fine microsoft then forget about it.(they wouldn't make them give the docs) EU on the other hand, fines them...still forces them to give docs..then fines them twice as much if they don't do it fast enough.
<LKRaider> heh
<LKRaider> Brasil would not fine anyone. They just accept the pocket-money they get :P
* LKRaider brazilian
<sid> LKRaider: So EU asked Microsoft nicely for a few months, Microsoft refused, then EU said they would fine 1 million euro a day, Microsoft dragged their feet and were kicking and screaming...then EU dropped the fine(hundreds of million of euro), then EU said give docs or we'll fine you 2 million euro a day(they still dragged their feet)..
<sid> So EU fined Microsoft again(hundreds of millions of Euro), now EU is saying they'll fine 3 million Euro a day..and they still want the docs.(EU is in the process of reviewing the docs it will take about 2 more weeks then they will have a decision if the third fine it coming or not)
<sid> They only want the most basic things, like server protocols, so other ISV's can make software that competes with Microsoft products.
<LKRaider> http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/06/445&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
<LKRaider> found it
<bhtb> is ports next?
<LKRaider> "Article 24 of Regulation 1/2003 entitles the Commission to impose such penalty payments not exceeding 5% of average daily turnover in the preceding business year per day."
<LKRaider> wow
<LKRaider> that's not even 5% of their daily turnover
<poningru> damn
<LKRaider> http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=SPEECH/06/452&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
<jbailey> Good morning all!
<jbailey> Or at least, it could be morning somewhere.
<bhtb> evening
<jbailey> I went to a motivational speaker who said I should always behave as if I'm exactly where I want to be in life.
<gouchi> evening :)
<jbailey> And given that we're at that annoying temperature where it's cold, but no so cold I should wear warmer clothing, currently I Want to be in Hawai'i.
<linuxboy_> hey !
<jbailey> Hmm, need to be op to  twiddle the topic.
<jbailey> nalioth: *poke*
<swaby1> What is the current topic?
<LKRaider> evening! it is hot here :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o nixternal]  by ChanServ
<bhtb> ports
<nixternal> what is the topic ;)
<jbailey>  /topic #ubuntu-classroom is Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Questions+discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Ubuntu ports
<jbailey> please. =)
<swaby1> Oh I may be out of my league
<jbailey> swaby1: Nah.
<jbailey> swaby1: Stay.  the more hecklers I have, the more fun it will be. =)
* jorgp is ready
* jbailey turns off his typing break.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:nixternal] : is Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC,  to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs |  Questions+discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Ubuntu ports
<jbailey> nixternal: Thanks!
<nixternal> jeesh
<nixternal> np
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o nixternal]  by ChanServ
<nixternal> back to work ;)
<jbailey> = Introduction =
<jbailey> Hello, and welcome!  My name is Jeff Bailey, and I'll be the source of the electrons flying across your screen for the next hour!  This is, I believe, the final session of the Ubuntu Open Week series.
<jbailey> There are a few things I ask:
<jbailey>  * Please ask all questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  Because I'll be pasting, typing, and looking at both channels, there's a very real possibility that I simply won't see things posted here.
<jbailey>  * In the other channel, I have a nick highlight set on QUESTION.  Please use that to make sure my attention is drawn to questions.
<jbailey> Example:
<jbailey> QUESTION: Oy, Jeff!  When do we get the Hurd port in Ubuntu?
<jbailey>  * I don't have a third thing.  But my public speaking coaches always tell me to do things in threes.
<jbailey> A bit about myself.
<jbailey> I got involved in the Debian world in 1999 because of the Hurd.  I'd been using and hacking on the Hurd for sometime before that
<jbailey> and Marcus Brinkmann wanted someone to run the buildd so that he could focus on kernel work.  I ran the buildd for a while and
<jbailey> sometime after that actually made it through the Debain New Maintainer process.  I still do the nightly Debian Installer snapshots
<jbailey> on ia64, but in the past have done them on sparc and hppa.  I participated in porting d-i for arm and alpha as well.
<jbailey> Upstream, I did some work in the 90's on helping with the port of GCC to SCO OpenServer and on porting glibc to Solaris 2.6.  I've
<jbailey> done other non-porting things, too, but that's not important right now.
<jbailey> In Ubuntu land, I do porting work for hppa, ia64, sparc and powerpc.  I am an Ubuntu core-dev, and worked on the Distro Team for Canonical
<jbailey> for about a year.  I still partcipate in toolchain work.
<jbailey> ObDisclosure:  I am employed by Canonical and manage the operations side of the technical support organisation as well as the standard
<jbailey> do-everything that comes with being in a relatively small company.
<jbailey> For those of you who are interesting in the Hurd, btw,
<jbailey> I gave a talk on that in 2003.
<jbailey> Not much has changed:
<jbailey> http://www.linuks.mine.nu/irc/hurd/ =)
<jbailey> http://ukai.org/d/index.cgi?2003-06-30-hurd-talk
<jbailey> = Definitions =
<jbailey>  * A 'ports' architecture:  This is an processor/OS combination that is not supported directly by Canonical.  It has a few characteristics:
<jbailey>    * It is not mirrored.
<jbailey>    * If it's broken at release time, it will not block the release.
<jbailey>    * If it develops a critical security hole, it's up to the community to come up with a fix and get it in.
<jbailey> (See?  Three can sometimes be a good number)
<jbailey> I see lots of people joining, I'd like to refer you to the log files in the topic if you're curious.
<jbailey>  * Soyuz: The part of Launchpad that actually builds and houses the distribution.
<jbailey>  * Kumquat: small oval citrus fruit with thin sweet rind and very acid pulp
<jbailey> (Some of this next section is pre-history for me, so sorry if I have it slightly wrong)
<jbailey> = hppa, ia64 =
<jbailey> The two initial ports that came about were hppa and ia64.  These were largely pet projects by LaMont, who wanted his
<jbailey> favourite architectures on the release schedule and with the community of Ubuntu.
<jbailey> The ia64 architecture is not that interesting as a port, in that it's well supported by a large corporation and a target for a number
<jbailey> of major distributions.  We mostly inherit working things from upstream for this now.
<jbailey> Note that this isn't to say that it's not interesting as an architecture.
<jbailey> But just that in general we can expect it to work.
<jbailey> University students everywhere look at the Itanic and study it.
<jbailey> And make presentations at the GCC summit and OLS.
<jbailey> For those interested in Itanium specifically, I recommend googling for "gelato"
<jbailey> hppa on the other hand is an interesting challenge.  While hardware is currently still available, it won't be soon.  It was
<jbailey> also a bit of a technological anomaly in terms of stack handling, atomic operations and such.  hppa wasn't able to participate
<jbailey> in the edgy release, and is now struggling to re-enter the archive with Feisty.
<jbailey> hppa is a bit of a pet project of mine, specifically because it *doesn't* have great upstream support.
<jbailey> Although it's used in production web servers and such in a number of places.
<jbailey> There's also some people involved with each port that are notable:
<jbailey> == LaMont Jones, the ber-porter ==
<jbailey> If you've been involved with Debian at all, you've probably encountered LaMont.  He's only a little bit scary,
<jbailey> in the way that I recently handed him a set of PARISC code in hex, and he was able to tell me what the stuff meant.
<jbailey> = amd64 =
<jbailey> amd64 was the next port that came along.  amd64 was introduced with Hoary, primarily by Tollef Fog Heen.  amd64 was unusual in
<jbailey> that from the beginning it was sponsored by Canonical with the intention of being fully supported.
<jbailey> Since it is fully supported now, the support for it has grown much beyond just Tollef now.
<jbailey> == Tollef Fog Heen ==
<jbailey> Tollef is a member of Canonical's distro team.
<jbailey> (I had something witty in here, but he knows where I live)
<jbailey> = sparc... promoted! =
<jbailey> The sparc port was the brainchild of fabbione.  He created this in his spare time on his equipment at home, building just main.
<jbailey> One of the challenges of building a new architecture is the churn that we face during the development cycle.
<jbailey> I think there are generally 3 build boxes per architecture.
<jbailey> And all of those tend to be really fast boxes.
<jbailey> Sparc attracted some attention by others because it was one of the first to drop pre-ultrasparc support.  This meant that a number
<jbailey> of legacy items were dropped.  It also was one of the first ones to incorporate David Miller's work on the Niagara chipset.
<jbailey> For Dapper, Sparc was promoted to being a primary architecture, is mirrored and has full commercial support by Canonical now.
<jbailey> So again, although Fabio did the initial port work for this, support for it has spread out a bit beyond him.
<jbailey> Not much, as commodity Sparc hardware can be a bit harder to get.
<jbailey> Some universities have extras, though, that they don't mind students playing with.
<jbailey> == Fabio Massimo di Nitto ==
<jbailey> Fabionne is our Italian Stalion.
<jbailey> = Community =
<jbailey> So, umm.  What's the point, you ask?
<jbailey> Anyone?
<ma1kel> ?
<jbailey> Excellent!
<sid> ?
<jbailey> <jbailey-watcher> QUESTION: so what's the point?\
<jbailey> (sometimes you have to be your own plant)
<jbailey> The point is that Ubuntu is a community distribution, of which Canonical happens to be the primary sponsor.  Under the guidance of the
<jbailey> Technical Board, the Community Council, and of course the SABDFL,  community members are free to promote their own ideas within Ubuntu
<jbailey> and have grown and changed Ubuntu in great ways.  The laptop testing program was largely community driven, usplash, and the xen kernels.
<jbailey> The documentation team, artwork, translations are all community driven.
<jbailey> The ports architectures are where community folks can get involved with their favourited hobby systems.  Most of the world is running
<jbailey> Ubuntu on ia32-based systems.  But let's say you wanted to put Ubuntu on your Linksys or Palm Pilot rather than openwrt?  A port is one
<jbailey> of the places you could start.
<jbailey> Even in general, if we look back at what Linus promoted Linux as in the first place.
<jbailey> I don't have the quote handy, but wasn't it something like when men were men,
<jbailey> sheep were men,
<jbailey> and device drivers were running scared?
<jbailey> Yes, please do ask questions as we go.
<jbailey> About half of the talk so far is scripted, and have is typed.
<jbailey> So it's easy to inerrupt. =)
<jbailey> <ma1kel> QUESTION: How do you get support if want/are starting a port for ubuntu?
<jbailey> I guess support is a tough question there.  I will cover how to actually get one started shortly.
<jbailey> In fact.
<jbailey> How 'bout now:
<jbailey> = How to start one =
<jbailey> The first thing you'll want is:
<jbailey> == People ==
<jbailey>  * Kernel
<jbailey>  * Toolchain
<jbailey>  * X
<jbailey>  * Porters
<jbailey>  * Community
<jbailey> Part of the trick is that when building a port, you need to make sure you have the skills available to you to make it happen.
<jbailey> Surprisingly, these are not as hard to come by as it seems.
<jbailey> On the kernel side, upstream folks are often willing to back you up, and in many cases may be running Ubuntu on their primary machines.
<jbailey> When I say toolchain, I generally mean compiler, debugger, linker, and associated tools.
<jbailey> This actually tends to be the area where it's harder to find people.
<jbailey> Just that GCC moves so quickly that it can be harder for community folks to keep up.
<jbailey> We have a couple things going for us here.
<jbailey> (ppc question queued up)
<jbailey> One is, of course, the Debian support.
<jbailey> The other is that if it actually builds, there's probably someone who cares about it.
<jbailey> The trick is getting those people integrated into the Ubuntu community such that if there are specific things that need doing, that they get into Ubuntu's gcc, glibc, etc.
<jbailey> X of course depends on whether you need graphics at all.
<jbailey> The porters are the folks who will go through and beat on softare until it actually works.
<jbailey> If we take an example from hppa for instance.
<jbailey> Every other architecture out there by default initialises it's locks to zero.
<jbailey> So, let's say you forget to do a pthread_init.
<jbailey> But you've made the variable either a class member, or global.
<jbailey> So it's initialised to zero by default.
<jbailey> On every other architecture, that will essentially be an initialised lock by accident.
<jbailey> On hppa, 0 is locked, 1 is unlocked.
<jbailey> So you'll deadlock right at startup.
<jbailey> That's a simple example, but it's the type of things that porters have to take care of.
<jbailey> Not only in the distro, but struggling to get the patches for these things accepted upstream.
<jbailey> Many upstreams take some convincing that just because it works for them doesn't mean it's a bug.
<jbailey> And ultimately, you want a reaonsably strong community.
<jbailey> (I guess that was the upstream contigeant leaving?)
<jbailey> =)
<jbailey> The community are the people who are going to give you feedback.
<jbailey> It's amazing how nice it is to see people using it, filing bugs and knowing that the work you're doing there is useful to someone.
<jbailey> The next thing you'll want is equipment and/or emulators.
<jbailey> Although right now all of the ports are built on standard hardware.
<jbailey> I'd like to see us begin to look at using QEMU for small systems that will never really get into the multi-gigahertz range of speed.
<jbailey> Without proof so far, I believe that a nice dual 4ghz machine running qemu ought to be able to out-perform your Nokia 770 for building things. =)
<jbailey> Building a distro from scratch isn't hard, but it does require patience.
<jbailey> And it's an undocumented process.
<jbailey> For this, it's probably useful to enlist a core-dev.
<jbailey> <ma1kel> QUESTION: What kind of systems are you thinking about?
<jbailey> arm, m68k, powerpc-embedded, mips come to mind.
<jbailey> arm in particular is pretty common in things like palm pilots, nokia handhelds, and telephones.
<jbailey> m68k is surprisingly popular in medical devices.
<jbailey> We tend to think of it as an old amiga chipset,  but the new coldfire systems look to be pretty nice.
<jbailey> mips is the linksys equipment.
<jbailey> ppc-embedded is your standard ppc stuff, but the calling conventions are optimised slightly for the embedded applications.
<jbailey> I can talk about ABIs and calling conventions outside of this talk if folks are interested.
<jbailey> <sid> QUESTION: Sparc isn't that popular...comparatively to other architectures. How did Sparc get such good support from Canonical/Ubuntu, did Sun pay Canonical? If not, how does Canonical benefit?(where they wouldn't benefit from supporting another architecture)
<jbailey> While I don't know the details of the business relationship, I think that Mark Shuttleworth and Jonathan Shwartz(sp?) standing on stage at the Sun One conference makes a pretty good story. =)
<amnesia> hah
<jbailey> <samgee> QUESTION: Don't you always need the real hardware because of possible bugs in qemu?
<jbailey> This is a slightly disputed topic.  From processor rev to processor rev there will be bugs in the system, too.
<jbailey> The challenge here is to decide when it's good enough.
<jbailey> Almost all of the major chips: ia32, amd64, powerpc, sparc have had third party knock-offs at some point.
<jbailey> And even themselves have had a pile of revisions.
<jbailey> The act of producing the code in gcc can push the emulator, but that's what a testsuite is for.
<jbailey> I generally believe that it works out fine, and doesn't tend to produce code that's so far off of the mark that you can't work around the odd emulation bug.
<jbailey> If a qemu port is fairly new or underused, I would probably be inclined to do an initial run of, say, kernel, X, gcc, glibc bootstrapped on real hardware and on the emulator.
<jbailey> If the resulting binaries have compatible assembler, then bugs that come up are more likely to cause crashes than to cause corruption.
<jbailey> Maybe toss MySQL and Mozilla in there for large C++ applications.
<jbailey> But it's the type of things that I think can be verified to the "good enough" level relatively easily.
<jbailey> And hey, usually the QEMU porters would love bug reports too. ;)
<jbailey> More on the how to start a port:
<jbailey> Once you have the thing up and running and working with 5 or 10 of your closest friends, you'll need a place to publish this.
<jbailey> This, I think, is the riskest step for a new port.
<jbailey> As someone who's had his DSL slashdotted twice,
<jbailey> once for running a hurd-based webserver there.
<jbailey> once for having  an supposedly non-disclosed Hurd archive there.
<jbailey> *sigh*
<jbailey> You need a place where you can put it that, if it *does* turn out to be popular won't keep you from putting it up.
<jbailey> or from using your line.
<jbailey> For those curious: No, slashdot doesn't tell the admins of a site before they get posted.
<jbailey> <samgee> QUESTION: Can it be a problem that an emulator is slower than the real thing
<jbailey> If you can get Hardware that's a decent speed, you don't need the emulator.
<jbailey> But if you're targetting a linksys or a palm pilot, chances are that's the commodity hardware that you're going to have around.
<jbailey> Sure, you can buy a desktop machine that's a 1.1 ghz ARM system.
<jbailey> But last I checked they were about three times the price of a desktop.
<jbailey> I think that ia32 machines are now in the ~4ghz range?
<jbailey> I don't know where current amd64 / em32t machines are.
<jbailey> But I'd be surprised if they weren't there too.
<jbailey> If your emulator is faster than a 1:10 penalty, you've won with comodity hardware.
<jbailey> Or even better, you could buy three of them.
<jbailey> Or dig up spares at your friend's house.
<jbailey> QUESTION: a bit off-topic, is there anyone working on an ubuntu for mobile phones?
<jbailey> (ma1kel)
<jbailey> I don't know of one off hand, but there's been interest in an Embedded Ubuntu target for some time.
<jbailey> Part of the problem is defining "Embedded"
<jbailey> Embedded to one person means wearable computing.
<jbailey> Ultra-low power, usually an 8 bit processor that gives off no heat and runs on a watch battery.
<jbailey> Embedded to another person can mean an appliance or such that sits in 1u rack, or inside a fridge.
<jbailey> (Off-topic, I saw a $15000 fridge when I was looking for one that had a full web browser on the inside of it.  Phear)
<jbailey> To do a mobile phone, you'd have to decide what you were targetting.
<jbailey> Things like the Motoral A780 have a half to them that is Linux, but that doesn't control the GSM side.
<jbailey> I suspect Federal regulators in the US and Canada (and whatever they call them in Europe) would think really poorly of people being able to do all the control of the radio antennae in free software.
<jbailey> Wehave that problem now with wireless cards already in Linux.
<jbailey> <sid> QUESTION: What is the relationship like between Debian GNU/Linux and Ubuntu Linux-based operating system with regards to PORTs, ie if someone wants Ubuntu on their arm device(ma1kel's cellphone), should they start porting Ubuntu..or just use Debian since their arm branch is already active and kicking?
<jbailey> It depends here on what you want.
<jbailey> The Sparc port wasn't really bootstrapped so much from the Debian one, although they share many things back and forth.
<jbailey> Ultiamtely, you're going to win with the Debian stuff, because those pieces are already incorpoated into glibc, toolchain, kernel and installer.
<jbailey> However, with hppa, we dropped linuxthreads before they did.  There's an ABI break there, so Debian hppa and Ubuntu hppa aren't binary compatible.
<jbailey> (This will fix itself after Etch releases and Debian will take the hit then)
<jbailey> But with Arm, for instance, you might decide that you want to go with EABI.
<jbailey> Or with MIPS to go with n64 or..
<jbailey> nubi?
<jbailey> I can't remember all of the 6 or so ABIs that MIPS has as an option.
<jbailey> In which case, the existing Debian stuff isn't going to help you at all.
<jbailey> I think it's often worth looking at a new port as really a time where you can say "How can we do this different, or not encumber ourselves with things we had to go through the pain of learning before"
<jbailey> I see we're close to the end, so probably best to dive in to PPC in general.
<jbailey> Earlier on:
<jbailey> <sid> QUESTION: Is PowerPC no longer and official build for Ubuntu?
<jbailey> <ma1kel> QUESTION: Ubuntu and PS3?
<jbailey> At this time, ppc is still an official build for Ubuntu.
<jbailey> A spec was raised at the Ubuntu Development summit in Mountain View, California with the proposal to drop support for the PowerPC architecture.
<jbailey> That is to say, move it to being a community supported architecture.
<jbailey> This is based on a few things:
<jbailey> 1) Low community participation in powerpc.
<jbailey>  - Few install reports during the development cycle.
<jbailey>  - Few people jumping up to look at bugs on the port, such as the R300 crashes.
<jbailey> 2) Low download rates.
<jbailey>  - I don't have the numbers handy, but as a total percentage of people downloading it, ppc has fallen to half what it was a year ago.
<jbailey> 3) Difficulty in obtaining new hardware.
<jbailey>  - PowerPC is certainly a strong and viable architecture, but with Apple not producing desktop boxes anymore, there will be fewer systems out there in developers hands.
<jbailey>  - New embedded systems tend to be mips and arm, rather than ppc.  Unless you happen to be porting to a Cisco Router. =)
<jbailey> The spec isn't finalised, and is sort of in a limbo stage right now.
<jbailey> I don't know off hand which way the decision will go.
<jbailey> But the Sony Play Station 3 uses a variant of the Ppc chip known as the Cell processor.
<jbailey> For those who don't know, the cell processor is amazing pile of crack just waiting to be smoked.
<jbailey> You have a ppc main chip, and I think 8 DSPs on board.
<jbailey> So the main chip can copy things into private address space for the DSPs to deal with and return values.
<jbailey> It's an interesting hack in that the DSPs don't speak powerpc assmebly.
<jbailey> And the DSPs also don't have access to main ram, or the cache.
<jbailey> Anything going to them has to be fed in explicitely and written to work there.
<jbailey> So that's a possibility.
<jbailey> PS3 systems are *expensive* and also not a sure thing.
<jbailey> I know that they're shipping now, but it's not clear how a Linux community is going to take to them.
<jbailey> At this point, I haven't seen anyone saying "I want to port Ubuntu to this thing"
<jbailey> I suspect the people willing to wait in line for it weren't waiting so that they could format it and not play their games, y'know what I mean? =)
<jbailey> that said, what do I think of ppc as a community arch?
<jbailey> I think that it will certainly fair well for at least the short term if it goes that way.
<jbailey> I still do much of the heavy lifting on glibc, for instance, and my main system is a ppc box.
<jbailey> I know that several of the core-devs still are using their PPC laptops.
<jbailey> But inevitably, these will all get replaced with newer and faster systems over the next few years.
<jbailey> So if manufacturers don't produce something that devs want to use as their primary system, usage will eventually dwindle.
<jbailey> <sid> QUESTION: Which is more popular with regards to downloads and participation(hacking) on Ubuntu sparc or powerpc?
<jbailey> No idea, sorry.  The numbers I saw were only ppc against the rest of the archive.
<jbailey> Quickly, the last three steps in becoming a port:
<jbailey> Once you have a public archive, you need to start talking to the tech board.
<jbailey> Some of it, is that you'll want to start using malone for bug tracking.
<jbailey> And eventually move towards using Launchpad for your buildds.
<jbailey> That way your packages and versions will be reported correctly in Soyuz.
<jbailey> Launchpad is currently not completely setup for dealing with architectures hosted outside of the CAnonical data centre.
<jbailey> But it's certainly in the model.
<jbailey> So how it works at that point may vary by the time you get there.
<jbailey> <ma1kel> QUESTION: Which architectures do you think will grow more popular and what is Ubuntu currently ported to? (architectures)
<jbailey> Currently ported to: i486 (called i386), amd64 (includes em64t), ultrasparc (called sparc, includes ultra3, and the niagara chipsets), itanium2 (called ia64), powerpc (includes ppc64), and hppa
<jbailey> I'd like to see the i386 distro move to be i686 and up, in order to breath a bit more life and speed into it, but I think that we'll start to see the decline of that in the next 3 years.
<jbailey> At this point, there isn't alot of good reason for Intel or AMD to invest new technology into building those, and I can see them pushing the amd64 systems onto their smaller fabs.
<jbailey> amd64 is definetly on it's way up.
<jbailey> I'm not clear where Sparc will go.
<jbailey> I've been surprised by sparc.  Where everyone else has become either high-end data centre (alpha and hppa get swallowed by ia64, they drop workstations)
<jbailey> or become smaller (mips, arm, m68k, classic i386 chips)
<jbailey> Sparc and ppc have managed to stay midrange.
<jbailey> ppc took a blow because of apple dropping them, but along comes the ps3
<jbailey> sparc stands in it's own class, though.
<jbailey> (I assume if there's another talk, someone will tell me?
<jbailey> )
<sid> There is nothing else
<jbailey> Sun produces Sparc workstations, servers, etc. and still manges to sell a pile of them.
<jbailey> I believe there's someone even still producing Sparc laptops.
<jbailey> (They were for the military)
<ma1kel> jbailey there arent any other talks planned
<samgee> gotta go, thanks jbailey
<jbailey> It's not a position I can see them staying in forever, but I don't know if they have something planned where someone will take them and use them in a game console,
<jbailey> or if you'll suddently see them enter into the embedded space.
<jbailey> The i386 legacy has got to go at some point, and I don't know how the break will be made.
<jbailey> Intel wasn't succesful with the Itanium, and doesn't seem to be trying anymore.
<jbailey> And if they can't do it with *their* resources...
<jbailey> <LKRaider> QUESTION: other than porting the kernel and toolchain, is it not expected that all the packages on main work with a port?
<jbailey> Sort of. =)
<jbailey> Where you'll often see complications is either:
<jbailey> 1) Poorly written code.
<jbailey> 2) Multimedia applications with processor-specific hacks.
<jbailey> I've covered #1 above.
<jbailey> #2 takes a moment to think about.
<jbailey> I pick on multimedia, but it can also be things like Virtual Machines.
<jbailey> On of the things, for instance, was when I did some porting work on the Boehm Garbage collector for Sparc.
<jbailey> At the time, Sparc didn't have an asm label to help point to the top of the data segment.
<jbailey> So other tricks had to be used.
<jbailey> Jakub Jelinek from RedHat solved that problem by adding the pointer, but otherwise different hacks had to be used.
<jbailey> So there was a bunchf of generally untested fallback code that only got used on Sparc.
<jbailey> You'll see the same in mplayer.
<jbailey> The traditional C routines tend to not be fast enough because C is too non-specific to render the routines with the right constraints into asm.
<jbailey> So you'll see a smattering of asm to do the transforms.
<jbailey> <ma1kel> Question: Can I see Ubuntu on my toothbrush anywhere soon in the future? :)
<jbailey> Err...
<jbailey> <linuxboy_> QUESTION : What are the difference between i386 and i486 ? instructions ?
<jbailey> GiYF for the full answer, of course, but I'm assuming the question comes from "why is our i386 distribution really i486?"
<jbailey> In that particular case, it comes from i486 not containing the atomic insturctions needed to make multiprocessing work.
<linuxboy_> yeah and in comparison with i686 .......
<jbailey> So in particular, there's two instructions: "test and set" and "Compare and exchange", which are used to make syncrhonisation work.
<jbailey> Test and set, says to look at an instruction in memory, see if it's a particular value and change it.
<jbailey> If you do that in a tradition C fashion:
<jbailey> if (foo) {
<jbailey>   foo = 1;
<jbailey> }
<jbailey> Then you have the small problem that between the test and the setting, the other process could've changed the value of foo.
<jbailey> test&set is a magic instruction that promises that this all happens in one step.
<jbailey> i686 then added superpages,
<jbailey> So rather than 4k pages, I think you can get 4megs I think?
<jbailey> I don't do alot of direct ASM work.
<jbailey> i686 optionally added an instruction called CMOV
<jbailey> The optionally is the part that kills us here.
<jbailey> When writing the specs, intel said that you didn't need to include some instructions that would be hard to build in.
<jbailey> So when via made a knockoff, they didn't include it.
<jbailey> For CMOV details, see: http://www.x86.org/secrets/opcodes/cmov.htm
<jbailey> <sid> jbailey-watcher: To add to linuxboy_'s question 386/486/586/686...all those packages seem to work on my system...not sure what the differences are between them.(which kernel/packages should one chose when there are 386/486/586/686 stuff listed)
<jbailey> (Grouping quesitons, I know I missed one)
<jbailey> The trick with the different kernels is that the advantage of running an optimised application is usually very small outside of the multimedia space.
<jbailey> Sure, if you're doing video, you want mmx, or ppc970 specific instructions.
<jbailey> (This is, incidentally, which other processors don't need to play the megahertz race so much as Intel does.  the ia32 chipset really isn't very well done.  Even Intel admits that, that's why the itanium exists)
<jbailey> In your kernel, which is always running, flipping things around, dealing with device drivers, devices, video, etc. you can see some neat advantages to how it handles everything when it can assume a higher processor level.
<jbailey> It's also worth noting that we install the libc6-i686 package by default.
<jbailey> So your code C library, math functions and string functions are all optimised.
<jbailey> That usually makes all the difference you need in an application if you're not particularily intensive with video/memory/etc.
<jbailey> <ma1kel> QUESTION: You said you guys have a problem with wireless cards, do you think that there are gonna be the same sort of problems with other things in the future?
<jbailey> Yup.  The problem is that as soon as you connect to the world outside of yourself, you have to play by other people's rules.
<jbailey> The question is the risk of what happens if you accidentally get it wrong.
<jbailey> If you spew crap onto the Internet, your ISP has to filter it or you take the world out.
<jbailey> Luckily, we had the Internet before the rest of the world, so we win. =)
<jbailey> But with wireless devices, you risk blocking out emergency frequencies, or air traffic control and the like.
<jbailey> So from a pure safety point of view, regulators are going to want to make that as closed as possible.
<jbailey> So once we get Linux into cars, and take drivers out of them.
<jbailey> (something that I see as inevitable, in both cases)
<jbailey> Will they let us hack on the software that goes in?
<jbailey> I think it's unlikely.
<jbailey> But how do we keep that from happening?
<jbailey> Advocacy, and getting it right the first time.
<jbailey> If we can be the first players in the market.
<jbailey> If we can push the envelope to show that our software is actually *safer*
<jbailey> Because there's no hidden terrorist plots in there.
<jbailey> Nothing to suddenly point all of the cars full-speed towards Niagara falls.
<jbailey> That in fact trusting the community is a better option than not.
<jbailey> I'd like to finish up soon, did I miss any questions?
<jbailey> Then I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone for participating in Ubuntu Open Wekk.
<jbailey> I've heard really positive reports from the other people leading sessions.
<jbailey> If you have any further questions for me, I can be reached at jbailey@ubuntu.com
<jbailey> Oh!  One more questions. =)
<jbailey> <sid> QUESTION jbailey-watcher: What is your favorite low power architecture(embeded?), what is your favorite high power architecture(for a desktop)? Would you chose a different one for a server? What is your favorite to hack on? Should we support Sparc since they did an awesome thing and made most of their CPU specifications *GPL?
<jbailey> Lemme start with the Sparc question first.
<jbailey> I think Sun deserves all of our support right now.
<jbailey> As a company they're openning up to the community in incredible ways, between Java, embracing Linux, and the history they have.
<jbailey> I didn't know that their process specs were GPLd, but they've traditionally submitted their specs to the IEEE, anyway.
<jbailey> If they didn't invent openfirmware, they certainly embraced it, which is also nice.
<jbailey> I mentioned before that I don't know where they'll go.
<jbailey> It's a bit of a mistery to me what their plans are.
<jbailey> As a service company, they do an excellent job.
<jbailey> As a fully integrated system, they provided from the edge to the core in some really seemless ways.
<jbailey> So by openning their systems up under GPL, they're really given us a treasure chest.
<jbailey> So I hope that as a company they find their way to continued success.
<jbailey> My favourite systems, hmm..
<jbailey> I think I fell in love with ARM with the netwinder.
<jbailey> If nothing else because it was *so* *cute*.
<jbailey> But in general, when I'm looking for systems to hack on, I'm usually looking for a challenge.
<jbailey> As a hobbiest, I can't hope to keep up with the professionals.
<jbailey> And now that ARM has taken off (ARM, StrongARM, Xscale), there are a pile of people hacking on it professionally.
<jbailey> Since I'm interested in low-level pieces, it means that I really can't keep up with development and contribute meaningfully to it.
<jbailey> So if I were to start hacking on something myself, I would probably dig out a MIPS system.
<jbailey> However, if I were to do an Ubuntu ports, I 'd probably start with ARM.
<jbailey> Explcitely because the upstream work is largely done.
<jbailey> For favourite high powered architecture, I like the Itaniums.
<jbailey> I have one of the last models of ia64 that was made by HP
<jbailey> (not at my house, please don't break in here.  It's *noisy*.  I keep those things at data centres)
<jbailey> When Apple made their announcement that they were moving to an Intel chip, I had really hoped it was to the Itanium.
<jbailey> I had hoped that it meant that Intel had finally sorted out their production and heat problems and were able to push this thing out into laptops.
<jbailey> For ia64 to get popular, you'd need to convince some sort of platform shift like that.
<jbailey> A captive market willing to take on something interesting, but for which you can guarantee that software would get written.
<jbailey> I like it because they've taken risks with the design of the chip that you just don't see outside of academia.
<jbailey> They thought large, they were willing to make it big.
<jbailey> They were willing to say "This will not be in your toothbrush anytime soon"
<jbailey> And in reality, ia64s aren't performing anywhere near their capabilities in Linux because as yet, we haven't figured out how to teach the compilers to do the work yet.
<jbailey> But that will come.
<jbailey> But again, I don't hack much on ia64 for the same reason I wouldn't really hack on Arm.
<jbailey> Too big, too commerical for me to follow along.
<jbailey> I have trouble tracking the development -- I don't have the energy to contribute to it.
<jbailey> So lately I've been hacking on hppa.
<jbailey> It's a great community of people.
<jbailey> It's a neat architecture, and still leaves me lots of room to learn.
<jbailey> And frankly if I take on a task, I can complete it at the speed I want.
<jbailey> In general, the architecture is good enough that it works.
<jbailey> So anything people want to cut their teeth on is probably something that noone else is touching.
<jbailey> It's a neat space to be in.
<jbailey> QUESTION Comparing Sparc and Itanium...what are the restrictions legally? As far as making an emulator say..or forking and making your own chip(hypothetically, I imagine it costs milllions of dollars) you can fork Sparc(there is a company that is doing that, since it's GPL'd. But can you do the same with Itanium? what are big legal differences between Itanium and Sparc..do you have more freedom with Sparc(as far as ""
<jbailey> trusted computing"", or
<jbailey> <sid> since it's GPL'd. But can you do the same with Itanium? what are big legal differences between Itanium and Sparc..do you have more freedom with Sparc(as far as ""trusted computing"", or what I call treacherous computing since you can just control your chip fully with sparc.
<jbailey>  (if it was cutoff)
<jbailey> As I am not a member of the Bar in Canada, I cannot give you a legal opinion.
<jbailey> But I can tell you a bit about how I understand the law.
<jbailey> As there's a published written specification, I believe that you can produce an implementation from that specification without restriction, subject to patent encumberances and copyright restrictions on your target code.
<jbailey> Copyright is easy if you work directly from the published document.
<jbailey> Patents is a whole other area of suckage, for which I will refer you to groklaw. +)
<jbailey> Itanium is a fabulously complicated architecture.
<jbailey> Doing a qemu port for it would be an interesting challenge.
<jbailey> I suspect that you'd find yourself extended qemu's internals quite a bit to accomidate it.
<jbailey> <sid> QUESTION: What do you think about the movement of ""trusted computing"" and the involvement of the MPAA/RIAA and Microsoft wanting to control users, do you think they will suceed? Does this scare you? Any technology can be used for good or evil, what good/evil do you see in some of these technologies like a TPM module
<jbailey> Oy.
<jbailey> TC is an interesting challenge.
<jbailey> If you look at CayoteOS, they've taken the model that you can use the TC chips in Computers to make sure that your user session isn't snoopable by the admin.
<jbailey> So a true power-to-the-people type of thing.
<jbailey> I don't know how much traction that will get with laws like Sarbanes-Oaxley in the US.
<jbailey> I don't know the right space for us to go with that.
<jbailey> I'd like to see users choose artists who will provide them what they want without restrictions.
<sid> Well they're talking about weaking Sox compliance now, or even abolishing it. Since companies are starting to list with Tokyo or London markets..and not even bother listing on wallstreet.
<sid> Although the democrats will probably take a few years to weaken sarbannes oxley since they have so much on their plate now.
<jbailey> But I refer you to an article in the current Scientific American where they talk about how in political science, how people feel is starting to play a more important role than raw facts.
<jbailey> But I think this question marks us as now far enough off topic, that I'll call this officially closed. =)
<sid> thanks a lot for the information and help jbailey. I appreciate you answering all the questions for myself and everyone else.
<ma1kel> Thanks.
<jbailey> sid: Glad to. =)
<sid> jbailey: You know about open graphics project and how they're going to make a graphics chip that the whole specification is GPL'd and it will basically be a community designed chipset..you think the same thing is feasible/possible with a cpu?
<ma1kel> Does anyone know if the logs of the sessions are gonna be uploaded somewhere, I would love to see the logs of some other sessions.
<sid> ma1kel: yea someone is definitely doing something with the logs from what I can tell. They're going up somewhere.
<jbailey> sid: Sure, it's something almost every Comp.Eng student does.
<jbailey> sid: The problem with any open hardware platform is getting fab time to produce one after.
<ma1kel> ah, ill keep an eye out on planetubuntu
<jbailey> ma1kel: The logs are all at the place in the topic, I think they just haven't been sliced out yet.
<jbailey> sid: I haven't followed the open graphics stuff too closely, as I'm not really a hardware geek.
<ma1kel> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<ma1kel> thanks
<jbailey> So the question in my mind is always, "So how would I get one"
<jbailey> "And what would I do with it then"
<jbailey> What I'm *more* interested in is looking at that fridge, and seeing an Ubuntu bootsplash on it when it comes up.
<jbailey> We're surrounded by processing power.
<jbailey> Why not hack all of it?
<ma1kel> lol
<ma1kel> 10:23	jbailey	Because there's no hidden terrorist plots in there.
<ma1kel> thats the last log on the irclogs archive
<linuxboy_> ok thanks a lot !!!
<jbailey> ma1kel: It's probably just a sync delay or something.
<jbailey> Otherwise I have it in my logs and can give it to them.
<ma1kel> Yea.
<ma1kel> Lets see what happens if I submit it as an item to digg
<ma1kel> http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_OpenWeek_session_logs
<somerville32> :)
<decan> ..
<ma1kel> http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_OpenWeek_session_logs
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<LKRaider> using htmlopt I could reduce the 2,5 mb file to 2mb
<LKRaider> *htmloptim
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Ubuntu week has now finished - thanks , everyone! | Transcripts and logs are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-03
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jenda]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:jenda] : Ubuntu Open Week has now finished - thanks , everyone! | Transcripts and logs are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o jenda]  by ChanServ
* kalon33 pong
<minerale> is this chatroom alive ?
<hifi> no
<jrib> nope
<PierreG> When is the next session scheduled then ?
<hifi> PierreG: topic
<elkbuntu> PierreG, openweek is over, however https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom has a few classes listed at the bottom
<PierreG> Thanks !
<minerale> I just came here becuase the ubuntu website talked about the open week
<minerale> odd that it's up still
<minerale> (frontpage)
<_ion> nightridr: Thank you for your contribution.
<_ion> nightridr: Could you please stop using that script?
<sam1982> hi
<apokryphos> hello, sam1982
<sam1982> hi
<sam1982> so...
<sam1982> anyone here can teachme how to install a a a package thats not in ~~  the installer?
<oz__> in ~~ ?
<Casanova> sam1982: you mean the apt-get repos?
<flossgeek> what is the topic in here today?
<gnomefreak> flossgeek: type /topic
<Saelynh> hello all
<jenda> hello Saelynh
<Mane> Hello. Could anybody help me with ipw2100 and ubuntu 6.10 ?
<andrew> Mane: have you tried #ubuntu ?
<Mane> andrew: yes. but nobody gives me an answer. neiter that he/she can help me nor he/she can't help me :-(
<ma1kel> http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Openweek_logs
<effie_jayx> I hvae a question
<effie_jayx> is ther a team transaltig the logs f
<effie_jayx> for the open week?
<tsmithe> dont think so
<tsmithe> you could always do it ;)
<effie_jayx> tsmithe, I am  planning to
<effie_jayx> tsmithe, but if work was under way I wanted to colaborate
<tsmithe> well, i don't know :)
<effie_jayx> tsmithe, not to reeinvent the wheel againg
<dieterd> cu
<Saelynh> hello all
<andrew> hi
<tsmithe> hi
<SARA> hello
<jrib> hi
<jrib> ok
<jrib> close all firefox
<SARA> sorry! im getting really frustrated! :)
<SARA> ok its all closed
<nalioth> SARA: patience is rewarded :)
<jrib> now open a terminal
<jrib> type 'firefox' without the quotes
<SARA> ok
<jrib> now go to some flash site and make it crash
<SARA> ok it opened it
<SARA> The program 'Gecko' received an X Window System error.
<SARA> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
<SARA> The error was 'BadShmSeg (invalid shared segment parameter)'.
<SARA>   (Details: serial 72 error_code 165 request_code 143 minor_code 2)
<SARA>   (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
<SARA>    that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
<SARA>    To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
<SARA>    option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
<SARA>    backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error() function.)
<jrib> so you know, you usually use a pastebin service to paste large amounts of text like that on irc
<jrib> ok, now try this:
<tsmithe> paste.ubuntu-nl.org
<SARA> in the term?
<jrib> XLIB_SKIP_ARGB_VISUALS=1 firefox
<jrib> all one line like that
<SARA> k it opened it again
<jrib> try crashing again
<SARA> The program 'Gecko' received an X Window System error.
<SARA> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
<SARA> The error was 'BadShmSeg (invalid shared segment parameter)'.
<SARA>   (Details: serial 110 error_code 165 request_code 143 minor_code 2)
<SARA>   (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
<SARA>    that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
<SARA>    To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
<SARA>    option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
<SARA>    backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error() function.)
<jrib> ok
<jrib> try:
<jrib> FIREFOX_DSP=none firefox
<SARA> WriteReady
<SARA> Write
<SARA> decoding...
<SARA> WriteReady
<SARA> Write
<SARA> DestroyStream
<SARA> Destroy
<SARA> NP_Shutdown
<SARA> NP_Initialize
<SARA> New
<SARA> SetWindow
<SARA> SetWindow
<SARA> SetWindow
<SARA> SetWindow
<SARA> NewStream
<SARA> WriteReady
<SARA> Write
<jrib> use pastebin
<SARA> decoding...
<SARA> WriteReady
<SARA> Write
<SARA> DestroyStream
<SARA> Destroy
<SARA> NP_Shutdown
<SARA> NP_Initialize
<SARA> New
<SARA> SetWindow
<SARA> SetWindow
<SARA> SetWindow
<andrew> ...
<SARA> SetWindow
<jrib> heh
<andrew> hah
<SARA> hi im sorry
<jrib> welcome back SARA
<andrew> SARA: welcome back
<SARA> thanks :)
<jrib> SARA: that's why using a pastebin is preferred
<SARA> no i hit the X
<SARA> on accident
<jrib> k, but use pastebin next time for large pastes
<SARA> dont know how ...
<nalioth> SARA: just visit paste.ubuntulinux.org and it'll become apparent
<jrib> SARA: it's very easy, just visit a pastebin site like http://www.rafb.net/paste/  and copy and paste what you want
<SARA> ok sounds good
<jrib> we were trying:
<jrib> FIREFOX_DSP=none firefox
<SARA> it just closed with nothing in the term.
<SARA> Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Macromedia's Flash Player....u tube says this too
<jrib> SARA: what were you using before to make it crash?
<SARA> haha my space
<jrib> heh
<jrib> try badgerbadgerbadger.com
<SARA> all the pages where they have a slide show is when it crashes
<andrew> well, you found the problem then...
<nalioth> what version of flash are you using, SARA ?
* nalioth knows what is wrong here.
<SARA> Segmentation fault
<SARA> beta 9
<nalioth> !flash9
<ubotu> flash9 is available from dapper-backports and edgy-backports now, see !backports
<nalioth> try that, please
<jrib> I don't think sara is using flash 9 beta since you tube complains
<nalioth> i don't either
<SARA> maybe im not ....
<jrib> but 7 shouldn't crash like this either
<nalioth> jrib: no, flash 7 and the later gecko releases don't play nice
<nalioth> jrib: this has been discussed and is well known
<jrib> nalioth: ah
<nalioth> and another FYI: konq in edgy is set up to use flash 7
<nalioth> so you either are SOL if you are a KDE user with flash-for-gecko or SOL with flash for konq
<SARA> so it cant be fixed?
<nalioth> of course it can
<nalioth> please see the info in
<nalioth> !flash9
<ubotu> flash9 is available from dapper-backports and edgy-backports now, see !backports
<jrib> nalioth: does that package remove flash 7 too
<nalioth> it does
<nalioth> or it should
<SARA> so how do i get there?
<nalioth> SARA: /msg ubotu backports
<SARA> in my term.?
<jrib> it's like the /join command, enter it right here
<SARA> than what?
<jrib> SARA: you should get a private message from ubotu about how to enable backports
<jrib> SARA: on a side note, are you using xgl or anything similar?
<SARA> im not to sure
<jrib> SARA: do your windows wobble?
<SARA> no
<jrib> k
<SARA> so they are giving me a website?
<jrib> yes, ubotu is
<jrib> !backports
<ubotu> If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
<jrib> visit that site and follow what it says about enabling backports
<SARA> ok then i should be all set? and working?
<jrib> then you should get flash9beta
<SARA> ok
<SARA> thank you sooo much everyone!
<SARA> <3
<nalioth> it's a problem that has popped up in updated gecko browsers near the release of edgy and in edgy
<nalioth> the solution is to use flash 9 either via the RestrictedFormats page or via backports
<nalioth> fixes it right up
<jrib> except flash9 likes to crash too
<jrib> at least in epiphany it does
<nalioth> epiphany is a 'fringe' browser and imho doesn't get much attention
<nalioth> flash9 works fine in galeon and firefox on edgy
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-26
<artic> anyone there?
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-27
<LaserJock> ryanakca: should I just add it to the end of the current topic?
<ryanakca> LaserJock: sure, or before the Open Week blurb... up to you. Knock off the transcripts part if you need to and I'll add it back Thursday.
<LaserJock> ryanakca: darn, I need ops to change the topic
<LaserJock> ryanakca: can you take ops?
<Hobbsee> you should have been able to do that yourself, LaserJock
<LaserJock> Hobbsee: I can't remember the command and I'm still in irssi
* LaserJock changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Please join #ubuntu for support |  This channel used for scheduled classes and invitational tutoring | Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Next class: PPA 101 at 11/28 15:00 UTC
* LaserJock changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Please join #ubuntu for support |  This channel used for scheduled classes and invitational tutoring | Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Next class: PPA 101 on 11/28 at 15:00 UTC
<LaserJock> is that all right or we need more description
<Hobbsee> ah yes, true
<LaserJock> Hobbsee: I did try once though
<LaserJock> mwuahahaha, I figured it out
<ryanakca> :D
<LaserJock> yes, I am an IRC newb ;-)
 * ryanakca wonders if opping someone else shows who it's from... LaserJock... you'll mind being the guinea pig? No? Thanks :D
<Hobbsee> ryanakca: no it doesnt, as i op'd him first
<ryanakca> hmmm... what's the deop command
<ryanakca> Ah... I thought he had figured that out himself
<Hobbsee> well, depends if you use the op/deop thing on screen, or msg chanserv for it, i think
<ryanakca> Ah, I see see. So, if you're ops, and use /op or /deop, it shows from you... but chanserv is by chanserv.
<ryanakca> Hmm... But I would think that ChanServ might want to show who sends the command... that way some rogue corrupt person on the access list can't take over the channel without anybody knowing who the rogue person is.
<Hobbsee> well, my /op and /deop are aliases - no idea what yours do
 * ryanakca shrugs... irssi defaults... maybe /mode +o nick or /mode #channel -o nick... *shrugs*
<IdleOne> ryanakca: a person could not take over the channel because there is a registered "owner" with chanserv who could always just take it back
<IdleOne> unless that person had the owner password and changed the ownership
<IdleOne> not to mention this channel is reg'ed to nalioth who is a Staffer so forget about taking the channel
<ryanakca> IdleOne: yeah, but, the "owner" would have to question each and every person on the list to find out who at least kick-banned everybody, right?
<ryanakca> IdleOne: no, but in general...
<IdleOne> chanserv logs all that
<ryanakca> eh, I guess :)
<IdleOne> opers can check and see if they needed to
<IdleOne> well the services admin could check
<IdleOne> not just any staffer
<Hobbsee> the channel, in practice, belongs to the irc council
<ryanakca> â¥e nods
<ryanakca> wow... fancy /me there... herm. wonder how that happened.
 * ryanakca nods
<IdleOne> Hobbsee: the ubuntu irc council?
<IdleOne> hmmm interesting
<Hobbsee> yes
<Hobbsee> (because it falls in the #ubuntu* namespace
<IdleOne> takeovers are a thing of the past anyway even on networks like EFnet where there is no chanserv if a channel for some reason loses all ops there is a service that will join and give ops to the last know ops in that channel according to the logs
<Hobbsee> irc council is known to take over "official" channels that don't follow the COC (and are not helpful to anyone - troll channels, basically)
<Hobbsee> but apart from that, yes.
<IdleOne> official troll channels? that makes no sense how did they get permission to start an official channel and then become trolls
<Hobbsee> anyone can register a channel on freenode
<Hobbsee> they didn't get permission - they registered it anyway
<IdleOne> I see
<nalioth> ryanakca: IdleOne: we have logs of _everything_ that goes on
<nalioth> nobody can get away with any hijinx
<IdleOne> nalioth: I did not doubt it. freenode is way to well organised to let some packet kiddies mess things up from what I can tell
<nalioth> well, only ubuntu members can get ops here
<nalioth> and select others
<IdleOne> such as?
<nalioth> so it's not likely that there will be any troubls
<nalioth> IdleOne: the access list is public
<IdleOne> does canonical staff get ops auto?
<nalioth> nobody gets auto ops
<IdleOne> or do they have to apply
<IdleOne> well I mean are they added to the list of ubuntu ops
<IdleOne> just because they work for canonical
<IdleOne> besides Mark lol
<nalioth> IdleOne: does the janitor that works for canonical need ops in here?
<IdleOne> nalioth: if he comes on irc perhaps
<IdleOne> hehe
<IdleOne> I get your point
<nalioth> or, how about anyone who manages to piggyback on canonicals wireless ?
<Hobbsee> IdleOne: canonical people often don't need, nor want ops.  they're quite busy, and likely not interested in the operation of irc
<IdleOne> I guess so
<Hobbsee> they're not out to get you
<IdleOne> out to get me?
<IdleOne> hmmm
<IdleOne> that is a strange comment
<Hobbsee> as in, out to stop you doing sane things
<IdleOne> Hobbsee: I am not exactly sure what you mean. I was not trying to imply that the staff of canonical was trying to stop me from doing anything. was just a question
<Hobbsee> IdleOne: oh.  staff of canonical have nothing to do with irc.  none of them are on the council, and only one of them has ops in #ubuntu, and the like.
<Hobbsee> IdleOne: i've seen lots of paranoia from various people
<IdleOne> Hobbsee: lol nahh Im not like that
<IdleOne> mnemtok right?>
<IdleOne> or something like that
<Hobbsee> yes
<Hobbsee> mneptok
<IdleOne> thats it
<IdleOne> he rarely uses the @ though
<Awe_Schitt> who is here?
<Awe_Schitt> o well
<Awe_Schitt> later
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-28
<cprov> guys, anyone interested in the PPA 101 agenda, please add your suggestions in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CelsoProvidelo/PPAClassAgenda
<ian_brasil> cprov: you want questions written there?
<cprov> ian_brasil: yes, please
<pleia2> cprov: -classroom has a mailing list now, feel free to send out the link there too: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-classroom
<cprov> pleia2: good point, sent.
 * Hobbsee waves
 * cprov waves to Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> :)
<mrevell> Welcome to this Launchpad Personal Packages Archives Q&A session!
<mrsno> hi!
<mrevell> Over the next hour you'll get the chance to ask whatever questions you want about using Launchpad's PPAs with Ubuntu.
<mrevell> You'll also find out what we have planned for PPAs in the near future. Plus the chance to nominate your top PPA bug.
<mrevell> If you want to get up to speed with what PPAs are, check out our quick-start guide at:
<mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
<mrevell> To answer your questions we have:
<mrevell> cprov - Celso Providelo - one of the Launchpad developers behind PPA.
<mrevell> Hobbsee - Sarah Hobbs - a member of Ubuntu MOTU and Core Developer teams.
<mrevell> And joining us soon will be LaserJock - Jordan Mantha - a member of the Ubuntu MOTU team.
<mrevell> This is a one hour session lasting from 15.00 - 16.00 UTC. After the session I'll post the logs at:
<mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/PPA/QAndA20071128
<mrevell> We'll be following cprov's agenda, which you can find at:
<mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CelsoProvidelo/PPAClassAgenda
<mrevell> more or less
<mrevell> :)
<mrevell> Let's start with "Coming features in 1.1.12"
<mrevell> cprov: Would you like to take each item and briefly explain what they are please? We can take questions as cprov talks.
<cprov> mrevell: sure
<mrevell> Great! Thanks.
<cprov> I'd like to describe some of the features that will be released in 1.1.12
<cprov> around 20th december or earlier
<cprov> we will start to ensure PPA size quotas
<cprov> which are set to 1Gb by default
<cprov> the size can be increased by request and will be judge ad-hoc
<cprov> The next major feature is "improved buildfarm performance"
<Hobbsee> cprov: a)  when will delete happen, and b)  how can we stay under-size, when we can't remove packages that we no longer want?
<cprov> Hobbsee: currently deletions are done by request
<cprov> Hobbsee: you have to post a question in launchpad-project providing the package names you want deleted and it will be addressed asap
<Hobbsee> cprov: right, OK
<cprov> Hobbsee: we plan to provide UI support for it  during January cycle.
<mrevell> ACTION: add delete instruction to quick-start guide
<cprov> yet about Builds in PPA, we now have 9 dedicated buildd machines for PPA
<cprov> 3 for each supported architecture (i386, amd64 and lpia)
<cprov> and it clearly diminished the bottle-neck effects as you probably noticed.
<cprov> also for 1.1.12 we will allow source copies by request
<cprov> users can request copies from other PPAs (allowing collaborative work across PPA)
<Hobbsee> what are the turn-around times for these copy requests?
<cprov> or copies from different suites inside the same PPA (backporting, for instance)
<cprov> Hobbsee: similar to the "deletion requests", until we provide UI, then the users can do it themselves.
<Hobbsee> cprov: which is roughly how long, between the request, and being actioned, assuming all the required info is there?
<cprov> Hobbsee: I can't say for sure, I'd say not longer than 24 hours
<Hobbsee> right
<mrevell> Although, obviously, in busier times it may take longer.
<cprov> right, more details about 1.1.12 and PPAs are available in https://edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_contact=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.milestone%3Alist=90&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.tag=ppa&field.has_cve.used=
<cprov> (eek, long url, sorry)
<cprov> mrevell: I'm done for 1.1.12 features
<mrevell> Thanks very much cprov! I'd like us to leave the vote until the end as I'm sure people here are itching to ask questions! If you have a question, please start it with QUESTION:
<mrevell> Questions anyone?
<cprov> mrevell: there was a question posted in the agenda by ian_brasil. QUESTION: How can I use the PPA behind a firewall?
<mrevell> Thanks cprov.
<arzajac> QUESTION:  What tools are needed to use a PPA?  I notice that you need dput.  Anything else?
<ian_brasil> cprov: yes, is this possible?
<mrevell> cprov: Would you like to answer the firewall question and then we can take arzajac's question.
<cprov> ian_brasil: I can't see any problems related with firewall, since your machine always work like a client
<mrevell> ian_brasil: Have you tried it and had a problem?
<ian_brasil> cprov: yes..it *does not* work...i am behind a firewall and dput times out
<mrevell> ian_brasil: Is it possible that your firewall blocks FTP traffic?
<ian_brasil> yes it does...any idea how i can work around this?
<bigjools> can dput be configure to use a proxy?
<bigjools> configured*
<Hobbsee> you can use multiple ways to upload files with dput
<Hobbsee> From the man page, these include
<Hobbsee>  Currently  dput supports ftp, scp,
<Hobbsee>        rsync, http, https, and local. The method scripts have been split  from
<Hobbsee>        the   main  script  so  it  is  easy  to  add  new  methods.   Look  in
<Hobbsee>        /usr/share/dput/ for examples.
<cprov> Hobbsee: but PPA only accepts FTP atm :(
<Hobbsee> cprov: ah.  well, then, ignore me.
<mrevell> cprov: Do we have plans to accept other methods?
<mrevell> cprov: Would PPA accept FTP on a non-standard port? That might get round a firewall, possibly.
<ian_brasil> should i submit a bug to get http implemented?
<cprov> mrevell: yes, there is a plan to add sftp support
<arzajac> A web interface would be great.  Browse for files and upload them...
<mrevell> ian_brasil: Yes, please do submit a bug report.
<ian_brasil> mrevell: OK i will
<mrevell> ian_brasil: I'm sorry that we're unable to help you get PPA working immediately.
<mrevell> Hobbsee: Would you like to take arzajac's question?
<ian_brasil> i have my PPA working just that I cannot add to it from work...i have to go travelling to upload !!
<Hobbsee> yes - want to repaste the question?
<mrevell> <arzajac> QUESTION:  What tools are needed to use a PPA?  I notice that you need dput.  Anything else?
<Hobbsee> arzajac: to actually build the source package, you'll need to have a variety of tools, based on what the package is.  these include debhelper ( or cdbs), sometimes a form of patch system, or a specific tool that the package uses to build.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide is always a useful guide, and explains a lot of these build tools quite reasonably.  The errors are faily obvious, often saying which file cannot be found.
<Hobbsee> #ubuntu-motu also offers some help with build queries.
<Hobbsee> If you're looking for more packaging help, to learn to use these tools more effectively, you might consider coming to one of the Packaging Q&A sessions, which tend to focus on how to package, and how to use the tools themselves.
<mrevell> Do you know when the next Packaging Q&A session is?
<Hobbsee> The next one should be in a couple of weeks, i think.  looking for a more concrete date now
<Hobbsee> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Events
<Hobbsee> Every friday, 1300 UTC.
<Hobbsee> It appears that the next packaging 101 session is at Thu 13th Dec 2007 16.00 - 17.30 UTC
<Hobbsee> this will pick a package, where everyone can follow along in the building of it, and for how to fix things in it.
<mrevell> Great, thanks Hobbsee!
<mrevell> arzajac: Does that answer your question?
<arzajac> That's great.  Perhaps the PackagingGuide documentation can mention PPAs.
<arzajac> Yes, thanks.
<Hobbsee> arzajac: it's slowly getting updated.
<mrevell> Any other questions?
<Hobbsee> A question commonly asked is how someone builds the same package for multiple releases.
<jcastro> QUESTION: Currently to add a ppa I have to add it via sources.list. Is there a plan for something easier like a button i can click on or something like that?
<mrevell> cprov: Would you like to take jcastro's question?
<Hobbsee> jcastro: that has been discussed somewhat in the ubuntu development community, and is so far undecided, due to possible QA issues.
<cprov> jcastro: yes, there is a plan to ship a AptFirefoxFileHandler, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptFirefoxFileHandler
<jcastro> thanks!
<PriceChild> apt:// links are already implemented aren't they?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> but I don't think enabling repos is
<cprov> jcastro: but it's not yet scheduled for implementation, so user-pressure is welcome.
<PriceChild> ah ty LaserJock
<mrevell> Thanks for the question jcastro.
<Hobbsee> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-September/024464.html and follow on describes some of the issues to this in more detail, if anyone was interested.
<mrevell> thanks Hobbsee.
<mrevell> Do we have any other questions? Don't be shy :)
 * Hobbsee only eats people on mondays.
<rick_h_> QUESTION: where are plans for stats? Help me know if I'm wasting my time?
<cprov> rick_h_: ehe, great question
<cprov> rick_h_: well, usage-stats depends on having a server-side smarter than plain-apache
<rick_h_> cprov: but straight download stats can be had via apache
<cprov> rick_h_: we have been discussing this lately and soon we will publish the possible alternatives
<rick_h_> cprov: ok, thanks. Probably the biggest thing I miss moving things to PPA/LP in general.
<arzajac> Question:  What about authentication keys?  Do users have to apt-key each PPA they add to their sources.list?
<cprov> rick_h_: right, you are welcome to file a bug about it
<cprov> arzajac: this implementation is also in the pipeline, check https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/125103
<cprov> rick_h_: we are fighting to the idea of having a single key for all PPAs, but also not keen about creating new privates signing keys for each PPA.
<mrevell> cprov: was that meant for arzajac?
<arzajac> I see.
<cprov> mrevell: yes, sorry
<Hobbsee> at the end of hte day, keys shouldn't be to hide a scary warning - it should be making you say "now, do i trust the maker of this package?"
<mrevell> Thanks Hobbsee.
<mrevell> Okay, we're coming to the end of the session. Are there any last questions?
<mrevell> In that case, let's move to the final item, which is nominating your top PPA bug.
<Hobbsee> ooo ooo!
<mrevell> You can find the list of PPA bugs at:
<mrevell> https://launchpad.net/soyuz/+bugs?field.tag=ppa
<mrevell> If you don't have on right now, please join us on #launchpad-users to tell us about it.
<mrevell> Hobbsee: what's yours?
<Hobbsee> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/136399
<Hobbsee> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/139619
<Hobbsee> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/172587
<Hobbsee> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/136413
<Hobbsee> and https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/165230
<LaserJock> :-)
<cprov> Hobbsee: clever
<cprov> 139619 is fixed in my emacs ;)
<Hobbsee> so, maintainer field mangling, so it thinks ubuntu motu's done the package, when they haven't, copy and remove UI, not having to upload the .orig.tar.gz, letting ppas depend on other ppas, and creating correct packages
<Hobbsee> cprov: excellent!
<mrevell> Okay, well, we've come to the end of the hour. Thank you everyone for joining us.
<mrevell> If you'd like to discuss PPAs more, join us on the launchpad-users list at:
<mrevell> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
<mrevell> Thanks cprov, Hobbsee, LaserJock
<mrevell> thanks everyone for your questions.
<mrevell> SESSION ENDS! :)
<mrsno> thanks a lot mrevell , Hobbsee and all
<Hobbsee> mrsno: :)
<rick_h_> I get an empty room for #launchpad-users
<LaserJock> rick_h_: that's the mailing list
<LaserJock> rick_h_: the IRC is just #launchpad
<rick_h_> oic, he used # so I thought it was a room
<mrevell> Sorry, I made a mistake putting the # on there!
<jcastro> thanks guys!
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-30
<dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 4 minutes
<dholbach> hello everybody - how are you doing? welcome everybody to another MOTU Q&A session
<dholbach> Let's start with our usual round of introductions - who do we have here today?
 * Hobbsee dies, so is not here.
<sourcercito> very well thanks
 * sourcercito waves
<MLP> o/
 * maiatoday learning new things daily
<kelmo> hi
 * dholbach is Daniel Holbach, working in the MOTU team for quite a while and trying to help out where he can
 * Hobbsee is the late Dent, Arthur Dent.
<dholbach> haha... Hobbsee is not :)
 * ian_brasil high fives
<dholbach> who's completely new here and hasn't start their road to MOTU yet?
<MLP> o/
<Hobbsee> \o
<dholbach> hey MLP - how are you doing?
 * maiatoday is very close to being completely new
<MLP> dholbach: great, thanks :) and you?
<dholbach> I'm fine - thanks :)
<dholbach> do you have any questions already?
<MLP> not really, I haven`t looked into enough to have any questions already
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> what I can recommend is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<MLP> cool
<dholbach> because it links to all the documents and howtos necessary to get you started
<dholbach> if anything in the session is unclear - just ask
<MLP> yup :)
<dholbach> did somebody bring questions today?
<Hobbsee> dholbach: can i have a pony?
<dholbach> we were bound to hear that question today
<MLP> lol
<dholbach> Hobbsee wants to have the "MOTU Q&A clown" tag :)
<ian_brasil> i want to ask about how to make a package for a specific architeture (lpia)
<Hobbsee> hahaha
<dholbach> ian_brasil: good question
<dholbach> so a key thing about packages in ubuntu and debian is that we all deal with the source package, what users install are binary packages
<dholbach> we only do source changes and only do source uploads to the build daemons, which (hopefully, if we do everything alright) turn our source packages to binary packages
<dholbach> let's all grab a random source package to look at
<dholbach> please all run    apt-get source xicc
<ian_brasil> ok
<dholbach> excusez-moi
<dholbach> in the case of python package (which just contains python code that is interpreted), you'd change 'any' to 'all'
<dholbach> which means it's only built on one build daemon, but will be installable on all architectures, because it's the same binary package anywhere
<dholbach> ian_brasil: to answer your question, you could enter just 'lpia' there
<dholbach> or a list of architectures
<ian_brasil> sorry..i dropped out...enter lpia where?
<dholbach> Architecture: i386, amd64        would be perfectly valid too
<dholbach> in the architecture field
<ian_brasil> ah ok
<dholbach> ok great
<dholbach> any questions about that?
<kelmo> we had a timely net-split
<dholbach> ok hang on
<dholbach> check out http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/log
<kelmo> ok, thanks.
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> any other questions?
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  about pbuilder...
<dholbach> for everybody who doesn't know a lot about pbuilder yet, be sure to check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> for everybody who doesn't know a lot about pbuilder yet, be sure to check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
<dholbach> effie_jayx: what is your question?
<effie_jayx> I have recently had my experiece for testing packages...  what is a good chroot enviroment for testing packages for other releases ... packages that contain a gui
<dholbach> good question, to be honest, I don't know - I know that some people use vmware, some people use separate partitions
<kelmo> virtualbox, being free, would make virtual machines alot more appealable for that purpose imho
<ian_brasil> what are these variables -> Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}
<ian_brasil>  and what others exist that we could use
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  great...
<dholbach> a simple chroot won't do in most cases, because if you want to test it properly you will also want to have hal, X, the kernel and other stuff of the very same release
 * dholbach is not that experienced when it comes to virtualisation
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  for a manpage bug  I first tested it was cool
<dholbach> ok super
<effie_jayx> I thought virtualization gives the tester an estimate
<dholbach> hum, what do you mean?
<effie_jayx> but since sometimes hardware is not using its drivers ...
<kelmo> depnds what kind of software you are testing
<dholbach> in the most cases it's OK to test it just on the release you're uploading it too
<dholbach> only if you do uploads to -updates or -backports you want to test it on that very release
<dholbach> coming to ian_brasil's question, it's a good one
<dholbach> ${shlibs:Depends} is a variable that will be substituted with all the library packages the binary files in the binary package link to
<dholbach> if you look at xicc again
<dholbach> (debian/control)
<dholbach> it just lists the two that ian_brasil mentioned
<dholbach> if you check out       apt-cache show xicc
<dholbach> it lists the following:      libc6 (>= 2.3.4-1), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.8.0), libice6, libsm6, libx11-6
<dholbach> because that's the libaries the binary in the package links to
<dholbach> {misc:Depends} will be expanded by packaging tools that run during the build process
<dholbach> for example dh_gconf (in the debhelper package) will notice if you have gconf schema files in the package
<dholbach> and automatically add a postinst script that will rebuild the gconf database after the installation on a machine
<dholbach> also, it will add gconf as a dependency to ${misc:Depends}
<dholbach> was that clear enough?
<dholbach> there are not very many dependencies added through misc:Depends, but it's good to have in the packaging - it does no harm
<ian_brasil> so it is good to have this ${misc;Depends} in every package?...what do you mean 'the libraries the binary in the package links to' ?
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> let's download the xicc binary package and check it out
<dholbach> aptitude download xicc
<dholbach> now we'll unpack the package:    dpkg -x xicc_0.2-2_i386.deb test
<dholbach> check out the output of       ldd test/usr/bin/xicc
<dholbach> that's all libraries that the built xicc binary links to
<maiatoda1> so ${python:Depends} will do the same for a package containing python
<kelmo> and ${perl:Depends} on same note
<dholbach> maiatoda1: unfortunately not, it will just add the python dependency for the python versions you build that package
<maiatoda1> ok good thing I asked then
<dholbach> kelmo: I know that perl:Depends will add a basic perl dependency, but I do not know if it adds all perl modules you might have to install
<dholbach> and that answers another question ian_brasil had: it doesn't make sense to have shlibs:Depends everywhere
<dholbach> if I just package a few python scripts of mine, shlibs:Depends will be empty
<kelmo> dholbach: i believe it only adds the perl major version (actually paclaged a perl module today, and iirc no extra modules were added)
<dholbach> as there's no built binary files to inspect
<dholbach> kelmo: ok, thanks for checking
<ian_brasil> so how do i know that linux-gate.so.1 from ldd for example is part of say  libc6 (>= 2.3.4-1) ??
<dholbach> there were a lot of discussions about adding that feature, but as far as I know it never was very reliable, that's why we have to specify them on our own
<dholbach> ian_brasil: that will be automatically done for you :)
<kelmo> well i guess interpreted languages are harder to parse for dependencies like that?
<ian_brasil> ah...ok...i understand now
<dholbach> ian_brasil: during the build process the ${shlibs:Depends} will get magically substituted with all the depends
<dholbach> kelmo: exactly
<dholbach> we would have to dive into library packaging to understand more about shlibs and dh_makeshlibs and dh_shlibdeps
<dholbach> but there might be some other questions first?
<ian_brasil> dholbach: what other variable magic exists then
<dholbach> packaging libraries can be a bit more complicated and I'd suggest to leave them until you're a bit more comfortable with normal packages
<dholbach> ian_brasil: for dependencies I just know of perl and python for sure
<dholbach> there are some for mono too and I believe for php too, but I can't remember their names
<kelmo> how about the ${source:Version} and friends that are used in certain cases?
<dholbach> it's always useful to just    apt-get source <similar package>    and see how they solved problems
<dholbach> kelmo: good question
<dholbach> sometimes you decide to split a package into several binary packages
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  what bugs are usually recomended for us starting out, desktop bugs? and whn is it safe for us to start merges and syncs?
<dholbach> check out the output of        apt-cache showsrc pidgin | head -n 3
<dholbach> pidgin is split up into 10 binary packages
<dholbach> so if somebody installs pidgin, you want to make sure that the installed version of pidgin-data is the same
<dholbach> else you can't rely on all the images and sound files being at the right place and so on
<dholbach> that's why in pidgin's Depends you write something like
<dholbach> Depends: pidgin-data (= ${Source:Version}), ...
<dholbach> which will be automatically replaced with the current source version of that upload
<dholbach> does that make sense?
<kelmo> yep. it does
<dholbach> there's a whole section in the debian policy just about that
<dholbach> ok great
<dholbach> coming to effie_jayx's question
<dholbach> I recommend bitesize bugs (linked from MOTU/TODO) and upgrade bugs
<effie_jayx> the bitesize are almost gone :(
<dholbach> if you look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes you will find two recipes which will help you with that
<dholbach> one describes how to upgrade a package
<dholbach> the other one describes how to generate a debdiff
<dholbach> effie_jayx: I added it to my todo list to do another round of bug triage and tag a few bugs as bitesize
<dholbach> in the meantime you could join #ubuntu-desktop and look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  great
<dholbach> there's always a bunch of desktop updates to work on in GNOME land
<dholbach> in my latest Ask MOTU blog entry I added a URL to all TODO pages of various ubuntu teams
<effie_jayx> when you mention debdiffs and package upgrades you relate that to merges and syncs?
<dholbach> no, not specifically
<effie_jayx> ohh ok
<dholbach> you can submit debdiffs for simple typos too
<dholbach> library transitions, etc etc
<dholbach> coming back to your other question: it's always safe to do merges and syncs
<dholbach> we prefer to get the bulk of them done early in the release cycle
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging might be interesting to you
<dholbach> any other questions?
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  thanks
<ian_brasil> I applied for a MOTU blog i think it was...i would like to do a mobile MOTU series...i heard nothing yet, maybe there is a delay?
<dholbach> ian_brasil: who did you ask?
<ian_brasil> i filled the online form in
<kelmo> reason i asked about the ${source:Version} was the recent changes with respect to binNMU's. I just found a good reference that explains what has changed in that regard on the debian Wiki
<dholbach> ian_brasil: I don't know how long it takes to get on ubuntuweblogs
<dholbach> if there's further delay let me know and I'll ping the guys who do it
<kelmo> which is confusing, because it was ${Source-Version}, but now ${source:Version} seems to be preffered
<dholbach> you can only get on planet ubuntu if you're an ubuntu member
<kelmo> and they look so similar... http://wiki.debian.org/binNMU
<ian_brasil> dholbach: thx
<dholbach> kelmo: yes, they changed the syntax so have source:Version and binary:Version
<dholbach> that's not really relevant, because we don't have the concept of binNMUs
<dholbach> in Ubuntu
<dholbach> we only do source uploads
<dholbach> so if you want to rebuild a package you will have to upload a no-change (just a new changelog entry) to the buildds
<kelmo> ah, k. understood
<dholbach> ok great
<dholbach> any other questions?
<ian_brasil> i have cut a dpatch to enable hildon on liferea...in configure.ac i check for the hildon libraries with PKG_CHECK_MODULES([HILDON], hildon-1 >= 1.0.5,enable_hildon=yes,enable_hildon=no) so if its there hildon is compiled in ...i can i just add lpia into the architecture right and check it in a lpia chroot
<dholbach> ian_brasil: liferea will get built for any architecture, so there's no need to add 'lpia'
<ian_brasil> when i tested in the chroot i got an lpia error
<dholbach> I know of other packages that have a check in debian/rules on which architecture is built
<dholbach> and in the case of lpia, add --enable-hildon
<ian_brasil> cool...you remember which?
<dholbach> ian_brasil: best to ask adilson, I can't remember which packages he patched to do that
<ian_brasil> ok, will do
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> any more questions? :)
<dholbach> all the new people in here: how do you like the MOTU Q&A session? does it help understanding things or does it all still sound very complicated?
<dholbach> seems it was quite overwhelming :)
<kelmo> i think its a great service. quite helpful to get some hints
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  it is needed
 * dholbach hopes that these sessions prove to be useful :)
<dholbach> ok good :)
<dholbach> are there topics you'd like to see a dedicated session about?
<effie_jayx> one of the things that I find important is getting confortable with the tools
<kelmo> maybe policy specific package sessions, like python, library, perl etc. where resources are for these ?
<dholbach> kelmo: sounds good, making notes
 * ian_brasil thinks dholbach rocks
<dholbach> ian_brasil: gracias :)
<effie_jayx> ian_brasil,  obrigado?
 * kelmo has not much idea about the python packaging best practises
<ian_brasil> a mobile packaging session
<effie_jayx> kelmo,  sounds interesting
<dholbach> ian_brasil: ok, I'll talk to folks about it and see what we can do
<kelmo> there was already a "patch system" workshop wasn't there?
<kelmo> is that woth discussing again?
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> kelmo: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PatchSystems
<dholbach> but I agree, it'd be nice to have such a session soon again
<dholbach> if you have any other ideas: things we should improve, things we should talk about, etc etc - please do mail me
<kelmo> i find patch systems conceptually hard to grasp at first, but nice and easy once a couple of dry runs are done. maybe others feel the same
<dholbach> I'll put effort and time to make your life and that of the people who join after you easier :)
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  thanks ...
<effie_jayx> :D
<dholbach> kelmo: I've worked for a while in the Desktop Team, which does a lot of package updates every two weeks - that's where I learned to like patch systems
<dholbach> it's so much easier to just drop a patch by removing a file, easy to update to a new upstream version, etc
<kelmo> another idea maybe, managing different upstream version control systems for various upstreams, debian package teams etc
<dholbach> so yeah, we should have a session about that again
<dholbach> good ideas
<dholbach> taking notes
<dholbach> effie_jayx: you said it's important to learn tools: anything we should document better?
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  pbuilder... for testing packages
<dholbach> PbuilderHowto is not good enough yet?
<ian_brasil> dholbach: the difference between depends and build-depends and how to work them out
<kelmo> devscripts tools, $vcs-buildpackage (or when _not_ to use $vsc-buildpackage)
<effie_jayx> I really didn't know how to test it... and the pbuilderhowto didn't cover that
<dholbach> ian_brasil: did you check out  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic ?
<dholbach> effie_jayx: ok, taking notes
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  it was no biggie either
<ian_brasil> no , i used the packaging guide...cool link
<dholbach> thanks kelmo, thanks effie_jayx, thanks ian_brasil
<dholbach> rock and roll
<kelmo> ok, turning into pumpkin
<dholbach> thanks all for joining the session, I had a great time
<kelmo> gn8, thanks for time
<ian_brasil> me too
<effie_jayx> so did I
<effie_jayx> having fun definetelly
<dholbach> be sure to blog about your MOTU experience and add it to ubuntuweblogs.org :)
<ian_brasil> dholbach: thx for doing these sessions
<dholbach> see you guys around! and let me know if you have trouble
<dholbach> :-)
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  mos cerntaily
<dholbach> *wave*
<soundray> Thanks for helping once again, LjL
<LjL> soundray, gamma is something simple and yet complicated. basically, your scanner gives values for each pixel, from 0 to 255 (for each color, and maybe from 0 to 65535 if it's 16-bit, but anyway -- values from a minimum to a maximum)
<LjL> soundray: however, nothing says that those values actually scale "correctly" (that is, linearly) with the actual brightness on the paper
<LjL> soundray: same with the monitor - nobody says that a 128 is half as bright as a 256. it depends on the monitor's characteristics
<LjL> soundray: so, a "gamma curve" is a function that maps those numbers into other numbers that are hopefully more representative of the actual colors you're looking for
<soundray> That makes sense
<soundray> Now I get to set gamma twice: once in the main xsane window, and once in a "Standard options" dialog under Enhancement
<LjL> soundray: you could define the whole curve point by point (try in the gimp or something, there is a "curve" tool perhaps not called that), but what is usually done is to use a standardized curve (i don't know its analytic expression, but it's just called a "gamma curve"), with a single parameter that changes the curve shape. that's what's usually called the "gamma value"
<LjL> soundray, it
<LjL> soundray, it's possible that one is an option that goes directly to the scanner hardware (some of them, if not most, are capable of being told a gamma curve to use), while the other would be post-processing done in software by xsane
<soundray> LjL: I see. I guess the Standard options dialog sets the scanner internal one and influences the "raw" values that come in over the USB.
<soundray> Is there some sort of "standard" gamma that defines a linear relationship?
<LjL> soundray: but here's the awkward part. in a scanner, gamma correction is usually *unnecessary*, because CCDs are pretty good at scaling brightness values linearly (not perfect, but almost)
<LjL> soundray, yes, gamma 1.0 means "don't change anything". however, the standard for 8-bit pictures is usually *not* gamma 1.0
<LjL> soundray: that's because *monitors* aren't linear at all, and traditionally, instead of changing it just before displaying, a different gamma is set in the picture itself
<LjL> soundray: pretty standard values are 1.8 and 2.something, 1.8, i think, being the standard on a Mac
<LjL> soundray: so if you set gamma 1.0 in the picture, your screen will show it as *very* dark, unless you've also adjusted your screen to work correctly for gamma 1.0
<LjL> but most people don't do that, and most images on the internet are not made for gamma 1.0 screens, but rather for screens between gamma 1.8 and gamma 2.5
<LjL> soundray: i suggest you start by trying gamma 1.8 in the "raw" settings, and leaving 1.0 in the "post-processing" settings
<LjL> soundray: are you on GNOME? i suppose so... on KDE i have a Gamma tool in the system settings, which is nice to experiment with and kind of helps actually understand how gamma works
<soundray> LjL: I'm getting the hang of it now. When I set both to 1, I get black blacks for the first time.
<soundray> LjL: also, the histogram is making sense now.
<LjL> soundray, however *black* itself shouldn't be changed by gamma. if the input byte was 0, it will remain 0 no matter what the gamma value, because the standard curve always maps 0 to 0
<LjL> same for white, i.e. 1 or 255 or whatever the value is
<LjL> though if "black" is really a pixel with value, say, 16, that *will* be affected by gamma
<LjL> but then it's a gray ;)
<soundray> LjL: what I want most importantly is good results from scanning black on white text. I guess the originals aren't really black in the 0 sense.
<LjL> soundray, that shouldn't be a problem with most scanners though... you're scanning in grayscale?
<soundray> LjL: yes. With greyscale I get a bit of an antialiasing-like effect. Lineart doesn't look so good.
<LjL> soundray: do something, screenshot the whole thing, settings windows and all, and post it on imageshack or somewhere
<soundray> LjL: not necessary. You've helped me a great deal already. I'm getting much better results now.
<soundray> I guess the secret when using the Lineart setting is to increase the resolution sufficiently.
<LjL> soundray: consider scanning in black&white mode rather than grayscale. gamma will not be involved there, you'll just have to find an acceptable white/black threshold. if you scan at a high resolution (which is made memory-feasible by the image being b/w rather than 8-bit), you can then rescale it and apply your own antialiasing
<LjL> b/w is called "binary" in xsane by the way
<soundray> Lineart, actually.
<LjL> binary on my xsane...
<soundray> Anyway, you've made me a happier man :)
<soundray> I have to do the school run now.
<LjL> soundray: see you later
<soundray> Thank you!
<LjL> soundray: (anyway yes, antialiasing is really a way to "approximate" high resolution by spreading information into multiple pixels in a lower resolution. if you start with a high resolution to begin with, you have the whole information, and can then *later* decide to apply *some* form of antialiasing, which is almost certainly better than what's applied by the scanner itself, if you need to move to a lower resolution)
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-12-02
<Cheeprey> hello everyone
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-27
<Chiku> hello
<Chiku> someone can help me about rsyslog.conf, I'm logging ipatbles, but I don't what to spam in syslog and message files
<Chiku> how can I do that?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-28
 * PrivateVoid waves
<PrivateVoid> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education
<PrivateVoid> calling pleia2
 * pleia2 waves
<pleia2> nice looking wiki page :)
<PrivateVoid> thanks pleia
<PrivateVoid> need to talk about some items if you have time
 * PrivateVoid hopes he did not get disconnected and pleia2 is waiting for a response
<pleia2> nah, in the middle of making some cookies
<PrivateVoid> cookies...
<PrivateVoid> yum
<pleia2> sugar cookies!
<PrivateVoid> do you have time pleia2 ?
<pleia2> sure
<PrivateVoid> I am under the impression that when the Beginners Team Education Focus Group holds IRC based classes you would like us to use this channel; correct?
 * pleia2 nods
<PrivateVoid> is the Ubuntu Education team using any other medium for delivery of 'classes'?
<pleia2> well, we're sort of just "Ubuntu Classroom" rather than a full Education team
<pleia2> and "Classroom" is just IRC, for now
<PrivateVoid> are there any plans for a Moodle style resource?
<pleia2> not at the moment, we simply don't have the volunteers to handle such a thing
<PrivateVoid> Well...
<PrivateVoid> I am hoping to take some of our classes and do more than IRC
<PrivateVoid> it would likely be with the wiki and forums
<pleia2> we've juggled ideas for a lot of post irc-session methods of summarizing classes
<PrivateVoid> since we do not have Moodle... or some other class type software
<PrivateVoid> I was more thinking of content that might be best done with assignments turned in, etc... and the IRC is the live 'instructor' help
<pleia2> early on people would blog about the sessions and we'd link to those (not fantastic, some people don't keep blogs forever), another idea was summarizing in the wiki, but we don't have enough people to do that, and the instructors could rarely devote time to wiki AND a class in irc
<PrivateVoid> I agree...
<PrivateVoid> to me, though, some material works well with IRC as the main focus... and other material does not
<pleia2> are you interested in using moodle?
<PrivateVoid> programming is one of those types of material that IRC is not suited for the main method of teaching
<PrivateVoid> I have used Moodle and Sharepoint in the K-12 district I work in
<PrivateVoid> both are effective...
<pleia2> I mean, you say you "don't have it" - is there a reason?
<PrivateVoid> the key difference with Moodle is that is has 'quizes' and other activities
<PrivateVoid> I said "don't have it"?
<pleia2>  < PrivateVoid> since we do not have Moodle... or some other class type software
<PrivateVoid> ah...
<PrivateVoid> Got it
<pleia2> so you were going to use wiki and/or forums
<PrivateVoid> Yes... the wiki and forums can be used to give people 'assignments' and tutorials
<pleia2> Linode.com gave me a VPS to use for ubuntu pennsylvania, we don't use anywhere near the full resources so I can use it for other ubuntu activitiges
<PrivateVoid> the instructor would receive the submissions... and review them with students
<PrivateVoid> Cool...
<pleia2> so if you wanted to use Moodle, I have hosting space
<PrivateVoid> awesome...
<PrivateVoid> we will see how things evolve
 * pleia2 nods
<PrivateVoid> it depends on getting people 'interested' and then actually doing stuff
<PrivateVoid> a great many people raise their hand only to never show
<PrivateVoid> that is why the wiki may be the best...
<PrivateVoid> tutorials on certain subjects are there for people to use at any time...
<PrivateVoid> if they get stuck they can 'ask' the instructor(s)
 * pleia2 nods
<PrivateVoid> and occasionally IRC sessions can be held for those classes
<PrivateVoid> I am also trying to compile resources -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Resources
<PrivateVoid> I think the single biggest issue is keeping things current... too many items get 'old' and forgotten
<pleia2> yeah
 * pleia2 attends to cookies
<pleia2> brb
<PrivateVoid> I gotta go help with baths... brb myself
<pleia2> PrivateVoid: mind if we schedule a Classroom meeting to pick up this discussion?
<pleia2> I'm sure others would be interested, while I've focused on simply getting more sessions in here, there were always people thinking about expanding beyond that
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, not at all... would love to schedule ont...
<pleia2> when is good for you? I'm busy wednesday evening but otherwise pretty free
<PrivateVoid> I want to get more sessions in here as well pleia2, but some subject matters will likely be best covered with multi-formats
 * pleia2 nods
<PrivateVoid> Most evenings after 8pm EST are good for me
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-29
 * pleia2 doublecheds schedule
<pleia2> checks too
<pleia2> how about tuesday at 8pm EST?
<PrivateVoid> That is the 2nd of December...
 * PrivateVoid checks calendar
<PrivateVoid> I am free -- in here?
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, will it just be us?
<pleia2> yep, here
<pleia2> I'll post to the Classroom mailing list and see if others are interested
<PrivateVoid> ok... putting it in the book
<PrivateVoid> k
<PrivateVoid> I requested to join the LP team
<pleia2> you're on the mailing list, right?
<PrivateVoid> not yet... I don't think
<PrivateVoid> that would be associated with the LP team right?
 * pleia2 points to /topic 
<pleia2> it's not an LP mailing list, it's one of the ubuntu mailman ones
<PrivateVoid> yes I am on that one
<pleia2> ok cool
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom || Next Meeting: 3 Dec 01:00 UTC Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/MeetingAgenda2008Dec3
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education
<PrivateVoid> good night all -- see you in the AM
<Inzi85> hello everyone
<Inzi85> does anyone know why my Ip was banned
<Inzi85> i have never connected to this channel before this
<Inzi85> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-24
<qwebirc83054> what do i need to study to develop for ubuntu?
<om26er> what should i know?
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-25
<shredder12> tdb
<lernidviewer_fri> hi
<lernidviewer_Ala> test
<RusBus> how do u identify?
<RusBus> its been so long since i been on this network
<RusBus> >.<
<RusBus> oh hold uo
<RusBus> up*
<RusBus> lol
<RusBus> i tried to identify with ChanServ
<RusBus> :P
<Russ> hmmmm
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-26
<BalSak1> .
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-27
<deensokmo> who know how to setup gloobus preview with cover for my ubuntu9.04?
<deensokmo> anybody can help me.. please..
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-30
<stilia-johny> hi... is any alive here?
<stilia-johny> :D
<zkriesse> I am stilia-johny
<stilia-johny> i need help with packaging !
<stilia-johny> can u?
 * stilia-johny ?
<zkriesse> hmmm
<zkriesse> packaging
<zkriesse> One sec
<zkriesse> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t14:01 log of a session my good buddy bilal did
<zkriesse> It's on packaging
<Ddorda> âwas a great session
<Ddorda> âi so liked that session that i mailed him a hot mail about how good it wad
<Ddorda> âwas*
<stilia-johny> basicaly i have problem with my makefile..
<Ddorda> âso simple, so informative
<zkriesse> ohai Ddorda haven't seen ya in a while
<Ddorda> âzkriesse: sup
<zkriesse> not much
<Ddorda> âhm.. maybe it's cause i left the youth chan?
<zkriesse> got a job interview this wed
<zkriesse> yeah why did you
<Ddorda> âzkriesse: well, the channels take a lot of place in my too-small-screen that i have
<zkriesse> Ddorda: ah ok
<Ddorda> âso i don't sit in channels i don't take part in really
<zkriesse> Ddorda: just wondering....no pressure to hang out in there
<Ddorda> âi swear that if i had something other than this netbook i was sitting there all day long :P
<stilia-johny> i cant understand ..
<stilia-johny> i upload my source in my ppa and lanchpad build it and i take an error that cp command has no premision!
<Ddorda> âmaybe you need a sudo?
<stilia-johny> sudo in makefile?
<Ddorda> âerm.. not sure actually, never done this before, but i guess that in the cp part?
<stilia-johny> in my makefile i use Prefix=/usr and at cp commands i give cp file.txt $(prefix)/bin
<stilia-johny> and get that premision denied
<stilia-johny> c
<Ddorda> âstilia-johny: maybe you need another / in the end?
<Ddorda> â(still guessing)
<stilia-johny> no because whith make install it works fine.
<Ddorda> âhmm.. i really have no idea
<Ddorda> âdid you try using sudo makefile?
<stilia-johny> now i try!
<stilia-johny> doesnt work.
<Ddorda> âstilia-johny: sorry, i'm out of ideas now =\
<stilia-johny> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/538164/ thats is my makefile is it corrent?
<stilia-johny> correct**
<grey_ster> hello the room from ubuntu noob
<grey_ster> nite all
<grey_ster> exit
<grey_ster> Have to get some help with all this xchat thingy
<grey_ster> Think i'll stick with Skype is easier lol
<grey_ster> quit
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-01
<ali_but> just trying out the xchat software for the first time
<ali_but> shall have to try and learn some of the basic commands
<ali_but> oh well, being as its so busy here i'll leave lol
<ali_but> toodle pip!
<kaushal> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-02
<fredzio> czeÅc wszystkim
<rsajdok> fredzio: to jest kanaÅa angielsko jÄzyczny:)
<rsajdok> fredzio: i tylko do sesji :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-04
<K_Sam> question:Is this room for news of ubuntu?
<virtuald> no, it's for scheduled classes. see the channel topic.
<K_Sam> class online?
<virtuald> yes
<K_Sam> i see thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-05
<c2tarun> a request to mentors: can anyone please arrange a class on bug triaging???
<zkriesse> c2tarun: I'm sure there has already been a class on that
<c2tarun> zkriesse: ya there was a class on 2006-08-04, it was long time back. can we just reschedule. just for newbie's like me.
<zkriesse> Ah hmm
<zkriesse> pleia2: any ideas?
<zkriesse> c2tarun: pleia2 would be the one to ask probably
<c2tarun> zkriesse: i think he is not here right now. i'll wait. is he the one that organises classes???
<zkriesse> pleia2: Is a she and she's one of the bosses yes
<maco> the p is princess :)
<c2tarun> zkriesse: my bad. i m sorry.  i'll wait for her then :)
<zkriesse> It's cool
<zkriesse> lol
<c2tarun> :)
<pleia2> c2tarun: that's a good idea, I'll nudge the bug squad folks and see if they want to do a class soon :)
<c2tarun> thanks a lot pleia2. i'll check the schedule regularly. :)
<zkriesse> ohai pleia2 you are around
<ce_300now> THIS IS THE BEST U CAN GET http://uploadmirrors.com/download/0KOLKAER/psyBNC2.3.2.rar
<Ddorda> âhey guys, can you give me a link to a class happened few days ago about making deb packages?
<zkriesse> I can indeed
<pleia2> Ddorda: it's linked on wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<pleia2> click on the topic and it'll take you to the logs :)
<zkriesse> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t14:01
<zkriesse> That's on Debian/Ubuntu Packaging
<Ddorda> âthanks :)
<zkriesse> certainly
<Ddorda> âpleia2: any chance i know you from TMW? i played it long time ago but it think i saw you there
<zkriesse> as pleia2 says https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom has all the logs of previous classroom sessions
<pleia2> Ddorda: TMW?
<Ddorda> âpleia2: MMORPG gam
<Ddorda> âgame*
<pleia2> Ddorda: doubtful, I tend to lurk in MMORPG circles (admin on an RP-based irc network) but I don't really play myself
<Ddorda> âpleia2: of course, i didn't mean i saw you in the game itself but in the chat of the game
<zkriesse> Ddorda: what game?
<pleia2> it's possible :)
<Ddorda> âzkriesse: TMW
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-28
<hda1> Hi, can i create new usser without login? Something like adduser -s /bin/nologin
<hda1> i mean in ubuntu.
<nigelb> Hi, you need to ask in #ubuntu, which is the support channel.
<hda1> ok, thx & bye
<LinuX2half> is the class in session?
<Resistance> nope
<LinuX2half> really? Then when will it begin?
<pleia2> there is nothing on the schedule at this time
<pleia2> see the link in the topic: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<LinuX2half> Okay.
<LinuX2half> Does the schedule update frequently? All I'm seeing is blank pages.
<pleia2> as I said, there is nothing on the schedule right now :) you can follow the classroom blog to learn about sessions when they're announced: http://ubuntuclassroom.wordpress.com/
<pleia2> we have a few per month, depends on the month
<Resistance> right now, iirc, its a slow period
<LinuX2half> Alright, thanks.
 * Resistance sees far more sessions around the summer in the US, though
<pleia2> it's the holiday season and beginning of the release cycle, things pick up after new years
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-30
<SammySez> is this an Ubuntu "help" channel by chance?
<pleia2> SammySez: no, you want #ubuntu
<pleia2> this channel is for scheduled classes
<SammySez> pleia2: ok - thank you
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-12-02
<varun06> JOIN android
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-12-04
<dw1> Hello: Looking for advice on file system choice for third "user files" partition when I set up dual boot with Windows 7 system on NTFS partition and ubuntu on ext 4
<dw1> I know that ntfs and ext4 (or perhaps ext3) are both possible choices, but which is preferred, and why?
<pleia2> dw1: you want #ubuntu for support
<pleia2> this channel is for scheduled classes
<dw1> pleia2: many thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-11-26
<HollyCowOS> this channel always had 49 people
<HollyCowOS> lol
