#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-04
<mdke> nah
<mdke> its all community love
<robitaille> then we'll nominate Burgundavia  for it...with a picture of him in a hot air balloon
<Burgundavia> ok then
<mdke> i think you have a reply on your NameSpaces request
<mdke> but its not clear who wrote what
<Burgundavia> You can use subpages for that currently. They scale better than this weird concept obviously copied from MediaWiki.
<mdke> heh
<Burgundavia> that is what I didn't write
<mdke> you have one on Templates too
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah i checked the diffs
<Burgundavia> This feature has been working for years
<Burgundavia> wtf!!!!
<mdke> ;)
* Burgundavia bashes his head against the wall
<k31th_> woah amazing
<k31th_> i got like 40 or 50 ubuntu CD's in the post this morning 
<mdke> hi there k31th_ 
<mdke> cool
* robitaille still waiting for his CDs....
<k31th_> need to start on my DOC work really have had no time 
<k31th_> robitaille: took a while 
<mdke> k31th_, that would be awesome
<Burgundavia> I got mine
<k31th_> all settled in at work now so i can do it there 
<k31th_> infact 
<mdke> get paid to do it :D awesome
<k31th_> yeah well i do the work whe its there and dneeds doing but i need to be there incase i need to go off site or some one rings up etc plus doing ubuntu docs will help improve my knowledge of linux / unix systems and commands 
* Burgundavia bashes his head against the wall some more
<k31th_> so its all benifical 
<k31th_> just installed Ubuntu on my sisters Desktop 
<k31th_> really like my new job my boss knows shit loads about linux / unix learning alot 
<k31th_> started using vi instead of nano takes some doing getting used to sing cmd line in vi mode 
<mdke> sup burgs/
<mdke> ?
<Burgundavia> oh, just stupid moin-ness
<k31th_> such as?
<k31th_> i bet
<k31th_> a women is involved
<Burgundavia> camelcase
<Burgundavia> and other stupid moin shit
<robitaille> I didn't know Ubuntu kernel have version names
<robitaille> zcat /usr/share/doc/linux-image-2.6.10-5-k7/changelog.Debian.gz  | grep -e "Release"
<robitaille> The "Gracious Gooseberry" Release
<robitaille> ...
<mdke> LOL
<mdke> the kernel team is crazy
<k31th_> nuts 
<mdke> in a good way
<robitaille> yeah it's funny....The "Radioactive Radish" Release.
<k31th_> The "Prickly Pear" Release.
<mdke> i need a pet penguin
<mdke> never mind cats and dogs
<robitaille> can you litter train them easily?
<robitaille> for a while I had that dream of becoming a zoologist to go study pinguins in the south pole
<mdke> i saw a program where penguins were wandering around in the middle of town
<mdke> in north america somewhere i think
<k31th_> lol
<k31th_> i see dell are wacking those dell 20" LCD's out for 300 uk pounds and its the same pannel as the apple ones
<k31th_> tempted i am 
<mdke> i want a flat panel
<mdke> but it has to be 50 quid or so
<k31th_> mdke: oh your in the uk
<mdke> sure
<k31th_> kool
<k31th_> where abouts ruffly 
<mdke> you're in swindow
<mdke> swindon
<mdke> right?
<k31th_> nr it 
* mdke proves he has a better memory than k31th_ 
<k31th_> yous 
<mdke> london
<k31th_> london ? 
<k31th_> ahh yes 
<k31th_> i hve to go to london soon it install a server 
<k31th_> Effort 
<k31th_> to install a shitty windoze domain controller with exchange 
<Burgundavia> ouch
<k31th_> yes
<Burgundavia> exchange is a lot of fun to play with
<k31th_> its a heap of shit
<k31th_> personally i think linux wendmail with imap and the use Mozilla Calander on a network share 
<k31th_> is good enough 
<k31th_> then use samba as a DC
<mdke> Burgundavia, robitaille #ubuntu-bugs
<Burgundavia> well, #moin was more friendly then I anticipated
<k31th_> iv had enough of reading my C programing book
<k31th_> must get some slee
<k31th_> night 
<k31th_> sleep
<mdke> night
<mdke> Burgundavia, they are friendly yeah
<Burgundavia> we even came to an agreement
<Burgundavia> and it was one I liked
<mdke> what was that?
<Burgundavia> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/Templates
<Burgundavia> on this one
<mdke> good to hear
<Burgundavia> alex schemmer said that it would take about an hour or so
<Burgundavia> wonder if I can convince ubuntu to pay for it?
<mdke> is enrico still happy to deal with our bugs?
<robitaille> we'll have to ping one of the mailing list admin for ubuntu-doc to allow all these bug report to go through the mailing list.
<Burgundavia> thats not me
<Burgundavia> I think mdke is one
<robitaille> ubuntu-doc list run by enrico at enricozini.org, jgotangco at gmail.com, bubbly1 at speedlink.com.au
<mdke> nope
<mdke> jerome and liz
<mdke> i don't see liz around much
<mdke> but jerome will do it
<mdke> ok 10 more on their way
<Burgundavia> liz is basically gone I think
<mdke> jerome is gonna have a heart attack when he gets the moderation list
* mdke writes email
<mdke> ideas on #3353 dudes?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> just have to maintain our own packages for that stuff
<mdke> it can be edited in the debian source package right?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> debian is splitting a whole lot of man packages out
<Burgundavia> due ot the GFDL stupidity
<mdke> right
<mdke> tbh i don't think that man page is gonna be high priority right now
<mdke> maybe we can use the apt guide from the wiki and make an xml doc in generic/
<Burgundavia> not really
<mdke> heh
<mdke> #9082 is reported by Kinnison's dad
<mdke> i need to get my parents on Ubuntu and submitting bugs
<mdke> ok enough
<mdke> time for bed
<Burgundavia> I need to move my parents to Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> and I file the bugs for my brother
<mdke> night Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> night
<robitaille> #3353...is that a doc team problem?  Or it will go into branding by individual packages, done by the maintainers of these packages
<Burgundavia> man pages are probably our issue
<uniq> well.. manpages are usually installed by the individual packages.
<uniq> and good night :)
<mgalvin> hi all
<mgalvin> i checked out the documentation and thought i would start contributing some place simple
<mgalvin> is adding some gnome menu items under ubuntu-doc/gnome/menus/C an ok place for me to start?
<mgalvin> is there any other particular place that would be best to start?
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> pick something that interests you
<Burgundavia> and send patches to the mailing list
<Burgundavia> a few patches and then you get commit access
<mgalvin> how exactly is the ubuntuguide being used here? working on that content would be best since i wrote the ppc version and know that stuff.
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> all doc bugs are already diverted to ubuntu-doc
<Burgundavia> was a gnome doc bug
<Burgundavia> not ours
<jsgotangco> if we were in baz, we'd probably have access to upstream docs
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the gnome doc project is essentially dead
<Burgundavia> and they are thinking of the same things as we are
<jsgotangco> if i remember right, jdub indicated this before
<Burgundavia> how can we revitalize them?
<jsgotangco> that we can adopt as a team project
<jsgotangco> well basically, all we do at the moment is WRITE documentation
<jsgotangco> (although Ubuntu-specific)
<jsgotangco> like you said, there's so much to improve in existing documentation (although GNOME-specific)
<jsgotangco> and that the gnome doc project is essentially dead
<froud> African Greetings
<k31th> morning guys 
<froud-work> morn :-)
<jsgotangco> hello
<rob^> :)
<mdke> good morning
* mdke rubs eyes
<rob^> that dist-upgrade to breezy was smooth considering the state of x.org ;)
<mdke> :)
<rob^> a few bugs though :(
<mdke> bugzilla awaits
<mdke> jsgotangco, thanks for doing the bug thing
<rob^> yep, headed there now
<jsgotangco> well it kinda spammed the lists a bit though
<mdke> true
<mdke> still, everyone around at the time agreed
<mdke> including mdz
<mdke> jsgotangco, hope you don't mind
<mdke> tbh, documentation bugs have been completely unknown to the team til now, i think its a good idea that we do something with them, otherwise its unprofessional for people to file bugs and not receive a response
<jsgotangco> well it all went straight to enrico
<mdke> yes
<mdke> are you ok?
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> if you are asking how i am feeling today, well not so good, i feel i am going to have a cold
<mdke> sorry to hear that
<mdke> take plenty of green tea
<jsgotangco> but if you mean about bugs going to enrico, it is not an issue, we just werent able to notice it sooner
<mdke> i meant how are you
<jsgotangco> i am cursing redhat at the moment
<mdke> i just felt that enrico wasn't forwarding the bugs, so I thought the mailing list was a better solution
<mdke> corey and daniel and mdz and ogra agreed
<jsgotangco> yeah at least we'll get all bugs on the list
<mdke> :)
<mdke> bugs that have been open for months can be dealt with
<mdke> i think its cool
<jsgotangco> when is there going to be a tb?
<mdke> there was one last night
<mdke> so in 2 weeks
<mdke> y?
<mdke> ooh new user
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> i wanted to attend
<jsgotangco> i thought it was tonight
<jsgotangco> gyaahh
<mdke> i went to the meeting
<mdke> i can tell you what happened if you don't fancy reading the log
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> it wasn't that interesting
<jsgotangco> i bet
<mdke> what were you interested in, koffice?
<jsgotangco> not really
<jsgotangco> i mean the whole thing
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-doc meetings are more colorful
<jsgotangco> aside from CC meetings
<mdke> ok the issues were, language-pack splitting
<mdke> it was decided to split them into 3
<mdke> lp-gnome lp-kde lp-base/main
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<mdke> see the mail by pitti to ubuntu-devel for further details
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> what else?
<mdke> then they discussed whether koffice should ship by default with kubuntu instead of OOo
<mdke> no decision taken yet
<jsgotangco> ahh
<mdke> riddell will write up a page of pros and cons, but by the sound of it they are mainly cons: koffice is apparently well buggy
<mdke> although the advantage is that it would get less buggy if shipped by kubuntu
<jsgotangco> hmm
<mdke> what else
<jsgotangco> anything more interesting
<mdke> ah they discussed the new REVU system that I don't really understand
<jsgotangco> kde doesnt interest me at the moment
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
<jsgotangco> as i've been doing most of my stuff in ratpoison or ion
<mdke> (for MOTU)
<mdke> never heard of em
<mdke> are they good?
<jsgotangco> if you prefer using the keyboard
<mdke> i've been trying e17 recently, it rocks
<mdke> if immensely buggy
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> hmmm i haven't been doing svn stuff lately
<jsgotangco> i have been busy with family
<mdke> i gtg
<jsgotangco> my wife is still in KL
<mdke> everything cool with family?
<mdke> ah yeah
<jsgotangco> well i gotta go too..i gotta shop some stuff for home
<mdke> okies
<mdke> take care
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kornbluth.freenode.net
<Njal> lo
<mdke> hiya
<Njal> hows you?
<mdke> Njal, fine thanks, you?
<Njal> im ok
<Njal> what's this about the gnome guide?
<Njal> bit lost
<mdke> the gnome guide should be quite useful for our userguide, some of it is out of date, but there is much good material we can just copy and paste
<Njal> from gnome.org i presume?
<mdke> ?
<mdke> you can find it there yes, but it is also in gnome if you use gnome
<Njal> oh
<Njal> i didn't know that
<Njal> never really had purpose to look for it
<mdke> me neither
<k31th> this girl is SO HOT 
<k31th> http://sexydesktop.co.uk/kr/kreuk321024x768.jpg
<mdke> cough
<k31th> lol
<k31th> man i installed this asterisk at home and its nailed this CentOS server hard in the ass
<k31th> total scripted install that takes over every thing 
<mdke> does anyone have any ideas for #9082?
<mdke> i guess we need froud for that one
<uniq> well.. File:///usr/share/doc/xorg-common/FAQ.xhtml does not exist.. the FAQ.xhtml file is gziped and is named FAQ.xhtml.gz
<melodie> hello all :)
<melodie> mdke are you present ?
<jjesse> wow don' t read email for a day and swamped with stuff fromthe doclist
<jjesse> :)
<mgalvin> fyi, i just uploaded my first faqguide patch to the list
<jeffsch> hey froud, you there?
<froud> mmmhmmm
<froud> waz up
<jeffsch> somebody said gnome docteam is dead. know if there is any truth to that rumour?
<Burgundavia> mostly
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> basically the main people who were involved were sun
<froud> Sun has been supporting it for a long time
<jjesse> i sense a but coming
<Burgundavia> but they have recently not being doing much
<froud> now they pulled out becuase of other deadlines
<jjesse> grin
<froud> so they must build a team all over again
<froud> sad, really sad
<Burgundavia> that is coupled with lack of interest in hacking yelp
* froud is not allowed to go there
<jeffsch> they just released v1.6 of GNOME style guide a few days ago
<froud> yes
<froud> but it takes more than just a few people to maintain all that is gnome docs
<Burgundavia> the problem with docs at the gnome level is that docs are so distro specific
<froud> perhaps
<jeffsch> menus are different, artwork is different
<froud> from the docs?
<jeffsch> confusing for users when help docs don't match reality
<jeffsch> yeah, gnome docs are specific to default gnome menus and artwork
<froud> well, its a fundamental flaw in the attitude FOSS has toward documenters
<jeffsch> yeah, they don't see the importance
<froud> and technically GNOME docs are not hosted in a manner that supports any downstream support
<jjesse> its that w/ a lot of projects, if there are any docs there in a wiki that isn't very good
<froud> gnome is badly fragmented IMHO
<jeffsch> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-cranky34.html
<froud> KDE has its problems, but the approach is different and it's easier to get support from downstreams
<froud> yes saw that
<froud> jeffsch: to develop documentation on a distro level you need a dedicated team of people paid to focus on, lead and move forward
<jeffsch> did you see doc searls column in June Linux Journal?
<froud> no
<froud> jeffsch: but free distros generally dont understand documentation
<jeffsch> the column was about a school district switching to linux
<jjesse> i remember reading it now
<froud> jeffsch: most fail to understand that docs are an integral part of "whole product" development and key to any "go-to-market" strategy
<jeffsch> basically, they chose red hat because it has tons of documentation
<froud> yes, and a paid team who does it :-)
<froud> It's just another example of how documentation is a fundamental component of any Linux "go-to-market" strategy
<froud> unfortunatley most distros understand software development and not marketing
<jeffsch> yeah. see the ubuntu docs. the typical user gets lost pretty quickly
<froud> even our beloved Ubuntu falls short of this
<jeffsch> the devels forget that non-devels might be interested in using the system too
<jeffsch> and the org is run by devels, no?
<froud> you said it, not me :-)
<froud> good on you
<jeffsch> don't get me started on devels and their superior attitudes :)
<froud> but as I have learned people don't really want people excercising free speech when it comes to this subject
<jjesse> aint that the truth
<jeffsch> imho there are two types of devel: Type I and Type II
<jjesse> about devels adn superior attitudes
<jeffsch> Type I thinks he is a god
<jeffsch> Type II thinks he is God
<jeffsch> :-)
<froud> yep, you have two choices. Like it or love it
<froud> The heart is in the right place
<froud> but the brain sees only 1's and 0's
<froud> anything above the code is irrelevant
<jeroen_> Hey guys, why don't you said up #ubuntu-doc-devel-interaction or something instead of bashing the devels (yes I know it was a joke)
<jeroen_> replace 'said up' with found
<froud> jeroen_: because the deserve it :-)
<froud> everytime one discusses this subject, somebody always take offense
<froud> brb
<jjesse> but that  is human nature
<jeffsch> david ottina is right about user profiles of ubuntu end-users
<jjesse> +1 to that
<jeroen_> jeffsch, what did he say/does he think about user profiles of ubuntu end-users?
<jeffsch> he says we don't have them
<jeffsch> and implies that we need them
<jeffsch> a writer needs to know the audience. it affects what you write and how you present it
<jeffsch> you write differently for a technical audience than you do for "aunt tillies"
<froud> jeffsch: deja vue
<jeffsch> for example, a technical audience knows right away what you mean when you write DNS when talking about the internet
<jjesse> for some reason this whole converstation sounds familiar didn't we have it awhile ago?
<jeffsch> aunt tilly needs to have DNS explained in the text, maybe even a couple of paragraphs, and a glossary entry
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/audience-analysis.xml
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/environment-analysis.xml
<jeffsch> if red hat docs have that explanation for aunt tilly, then she will use red hat and not ubuntu
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/content-specification.xml
<jeffsch> or even worse, stick with windows(spit)
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/information-plan.xml
<froud> jeffsch: this work was done by me on/around 16/04
<froud> the framework is there
<froud> but the will to execute is not
<jeffsch> i know. I added it back to the agenda for tomorrow's meeting
<jeffsch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
<froud> he he, rather you than me ;-)
<jeroen_> jeffsch, how about making DNS clickable ?
<froud>  docteam.ubuntu.com - this has been agreed upon to host draft documents for review. The current status and preview pages at DocteamProjects is so outdated but prospective documentation members still refer to it the first time they encounter the docteam pages. This site will serve as a "staging area" for documents already tagged as "WIP" .
<jeffsch> jeroen_: that might be difficult in paper book format
<froud> since when was it agreed. I have not seen any acknowledgement about docteam.u.c only help.u.c
<jeroen_> jeffsch, you mean printed documents? Well, you're right then
<froud> Its called a Glossary ;-)
<jeffsch> jeroen_: plus making it clickable is a useability issue... some like it, some don't
<froud> "DocteamProjects is so outdated but prospective documentation" only true for GNOME
<froud> jeffsch: Hmmm, that's a debate
<jeffsch> yeah, it's almost religious. my feeling is, if your audience will like it, then give it to them. If not, then don't.
<froud> jeffsch: if you want to fly the banner for all these issues, you're more than welcome. Just be warned that the road is booby trapped
<froud> not because of me :-)
<froud> I may be accused of being a dictator again 
<jeffsch> bah. it just takes time, and patience. nothing gets done immediately.
<froud> lol
<froud> breezy +6
<jeffsch> more and more people are noticing that we don't have user profiles
<jeffsch> so eventually, we will have them
<jeffsch> but we won't have them tomorrow
<froud> the same applies to about 6 other debates we have had until now
<froud> today I see people speaking about gnome and describing vendor drops
<froud> the otherday using db profiles
<froud> but I dont see it happening
<jeffsch> yeah. look how long people complained about wiki organization. now it's on our agenda for tomorrow.
<jeffsch> progress!
<froud> meet and talk is easy dude
<froud> execute
<froud> that's something else
<jeffsch> it's a step in the right direction
<froud> :-) you believer you
<jeffsch> hey, we are reasonable people, and we play well together (usually)
* froud notices that meeting topic are all heavy discussions
<froud> wonder how long this meeting will take
<froud> play well, dunno about work well
<jeroen_> What's wrong with the wiki organisation?
<froud> careful jeroen_ 
<froud> landmines ahead
<jeroen_> what are they going to do, froud ?
<jeroen_> bomb my computer?
<froud> :-) at last one with a sense of humour
<jeroen_> no, serious, jeffsch says people complain about the wiki organization, so I ask what's wrong with it
<jeffsch> it's disorganized. I'm speaking only of the docteam pages.
<froud> seems to me people want to solve the worlds problems in a docteam meeting when they should be discussing it on the mailing list
<jeffsch> information is duplicated all over the place
<jeffsch> lots of it is out of date
<froud> that's being kind
<froud> the only way to find anything is to search
<mgalvin> whats the deal with the qanda styles, they are um... not displayed correctly, has anybody else used these to se what I mean
<froud> yes you are using yelp
<froud> yelp not support them
<froud> transform to HTML
<mgalvin> ah
<froud> leave yelp 
<jeffsch> jeroen_: it's a docteam problem.
<froud> jeffsch: its a community problem
<froud> I dont see how docteam is responsible
<jeffsch> i'm only talking about the docteam wiki pages though
<froud> Ah
<jeffsch> the wiki as a whole, well i don't know about that
<mgalvin> is there are make target for the faqguide
<froud> not that I know of, perhaps in the gnome/Makefile
<jeffsch> no, not in gnome/Makefile
<froud> nope
<froud> actually that doc needs a profiled make target
<froud> whose up to it
<froud> jeffsch: you maintaining the gnome makefile right?
<froud> :-)
<jeffsch> yeah
<jeffsch> looks like we need a generic/Makefile
<froud> use profile.os
<froud> could do
<jeffsch> faqguide is in generic 
<froud> for instalguide i have a profile.os stringparam do kde
<froud> faqguide needs the same
<jeffsch> ok. so how does mgalvin make an html of faqguide right now then?
<froud> I can add the kde one and you can just copy and change it if you like
<froud> he must know how to use xsltproc :-)
<jeffsch> froud: ok. add the kde one
<froud> OK :-)
<uniq> does yelp support gziped xhtml files? 
<mgalvin> i know how to use it
<froud> yes
<uniq> ref. #9082
<froud> ok then you can just transform it
<froud> uniq: yes
<froud> to the best of my knowledge
<froud> so does khelpcenter
<mgalvin> ok, i'll just do that for now
<uniq> froud: any idea how i can make it not open in file-roller then? :)
<froud> mgalvin: if you have some time I will add a make target for you
<mgalvin> sure, that would be great
<froud> uniq: he he some secrets of yelp are not documented
<froud> best person to ask is shaunm
<froud> irc.gnome.org #docs
<uniq> is /whois shaunm here the same guy? 
<froud> think so
<uniq> thanks. i'll ask him.
<froud> svn commit -m add kfaqguide make target Makefile --non-interactive 
<froud> Sending Makefile
<froud> Transmitting file data .
<froud> Committed revision 1290.
<froud> successfully (0)
<froud> jeffsch: all yours darling
<jeffsch> gotta run. cya
<froud> hmmm nice
<froud> makes a run for it
<froud> mgalvin: cd to kde
<froud> make kfaq
<mgalvin> froud, yup i see it, trying it now
<froud> that will make the K FAQ
<froud> there is not much kde stuff in that doc yet so 90% will be gnome
<froud> feel free to differentiate between kde and gome in that doc use the os attribute
<mgalvin> cool, that worked
<mgalvin> ok
<froud> glad to help
<froud> sorry there is no gnome make target yet
<mgalvin> np, thanks for making the kde target, at least i can see that one for now
<mgalvin> is jeffsch going to have time to make the gnome target, if not maybe i'll take a crack at it
<jeffsch> mgalvin: i'm making it now, but if you wanna try, then lemme know
<jeffsch> i'm more than happy to let you do it
<mgalvin> na, go ahead
<mgalvin> it'll be good for me to see how you do it this way i can learn from your example, seeing the diff of what was added to make it work
<froud> mgalvin: just do svn diff -r PREV --old Makefile --new Makefile  on the KDE makefile
<froud> that will give you my diff
<jeffsch> mgalvin: done. in svn now.
<froud> thanks jeffsch 
<mgalvin> thanks guys
<mgalvin> they both work good :)
<froud> cool
<froud> nightly update to http://lnix.net/~froud/ complete
<mgalvin> should i start working toward making the faqguide apply to breezy (where applicable), or are we just making things apply to hoary for now
<froud> go for breezy
<mgalvin> k, cool
<mgalvin> is it alright if i change (k)ubuntu-packages to point to breezy, right now they point to hoary,  in libs/global.ent
<mgalvin> also if i modifiy multiple files should i submit one patch for all, or seperate patches - one for each file?
<froud> rather seperate
<mgalvin> ok
<froud> that way is easier to role back
<froud> if needed
<mgalvin> ok, thnx
<Burgundavia> mdke, https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/268
* mgalvin sends 3 more patches to the list
<mgalvin> later all
<froud> nite all
<judax> froud: nite
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-05
<judax> mdke: ping
<prc> I have a problem with playing sounds. Can anyone help?
<judax> prc: have you tried #ubuntu?
<prc> yes, but no one seems to respond to me
<prc> I will try again
<judax> hmm, it can be a busy place most of the time
<prc> okay
<judax> I am not a sound expert or I would give it a go, my sound works so I thank my lucky stars
<prc> well it seems that only one application, like the os or SND, can use esd at a time
<prc> So whenever I run SND I have to kill all the system sounds
<judax> prc: what is snd?
<judax> I know there are issues with certain programs wanting/expecting complete control of the sound system and you do need to kill esd to get them to work
<prc> its an application that plays sounds, like .aif files
<judax> I have that with ut2004
<prc> judax: thats probably whats going on
<judax> it works if you kill esd and then use SND?
<prc> yeah. Then it works great, but then nothing else can use esd.
<judax> forums have any insight into it?
<prc> which forums?
<judax> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/
<judax> the ubuntu-users mail list is also VERY active
<prc> I haven't checked, but I will.  I'm new to linux/ubuntu.
<prc> hmmm.
<prc> So, every time you run ut2004 you have to kill esd manually?
<judax> prc: http://www.ubuntuguide.org/ check this out too if you are new, map help
<judax> s/map/may
<judax> yep
<judax> no way around it from what I can tell/have researched, that app, ut2k4 just demands it
<prc> hmmm.  Well I'll check those places out.  At least now I know that SND or something is broken.
<prc> Thanks
<judax> I have seen that too with some video players, like mplayer
<judax> maybe that is not the right player, I use xine most of the time
<judax> good luck
<prc> Thanks.  
<mdke> judax, pong, Burgundavia pong
<judax> mdke: Hi
<mdke> yo
<Burgundavia> mdke, is your bug still relevant
<Burgundavia> ?
<judax> quick question, just working on some of the docs and was wondering why the copyright on the kynaptic doc is different
<mdke> Burgundavia, will check
<mdke> judax, no idea
<mdke> sorry!
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah, still crashes
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> night all, see you at the meeting tomorrow
<robitaille> I don't think I'll be able to make it to the meeting.  It's really a bad time for me.  One of these days I'll make it to a doc meeting :)
<froud> African Greetings
<k31th> yo
<froud-work> bo
<rob^> how long until the meeting?
<froud-work> my time now
<froud-work> 10:48
<froud-work> 10:48
<froud-work> meetind at 14:00
<froud-work> oops
<froud-work> 16:00
<mgalvin> morning all
<froud-work> noon
<froud-work> mgalvin: abt you public key
<froud-work> do you have a key set?
<rob^> aww.. I gotta go
<mgalvin> froud-work, yes
<froud-work> if you do, just send me your public key
<froud-work> and username wanted
<froud-work> elmo will add it to the server
<mgalvin> ok
<mgalvin> i'll send it to you now
<froud-work> k
<jsgotangco> alright i almost forgot we have a meeting
<rob^> yes, which sucks
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> sucks because of your timezone?
<rob^> well, the fact its almost midnight
<rob^> and due to the demands of a normal sex life...
<jsgotangco> ahh well my wife just arrived from KL today and i want to go to bed too
* rob^ looks at time.. I have 52 minutes
* froud-work looks up at the mention of sex
<rob^> 51..
<froud-work> rob^: its OK you can always catch a log
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> I just turned logging on actually
<froud-work> rob^: I would if I had to choose between meetings and sex
* froud-work is a horny little devil
<jsgotangco> oh the vogolity of it all...
<froud-work> No definitions found for 'vogolity'.
<jsgotangco> sure its a HHGTTG term
<rob^> night all
<froud-work> nite, rob^ :-)
<jsgotangco> rob^: night
<froud-work> enjoy
<rob^> hehe
<froud-work> we want a report tomorrow
<jsgotangco> report tommorow? you mean meeting minutes?
<froud-work> not of rob^ 's nocturnal activities
<jsgotangco> oh right
<jsgotangco> i'd rather not submit mine
<jsgotangco> (i really want to go to bed now btw but it can wait)
<froud-work> well if you have any, there are welcome
<froud-work> well nice to see you're here anyway
<froud-work> you have been scarce lately
<jsgotangco> well i participated in a trade show thats why
<jsgotangco> it just ended today
<jsgotangco> i had some stuff to commit later
<froud-work> jsgotangco: did you see your k quick guide is up at http://lnix.net/~froud
<jsgotangco> oohhhh
<froud-work> So far I have had good reports on it
<jsgotangco> thats nice to hear
<froud-work> :-)
<froud-work> an uniq has offered to make us a debs packaging system for the kubuntu stuff, so regular updates will be installable soon
<jsgotangco> hopefully we get the linode server soon so we can move this stuff there
<jsgotangco> wow
<froud-work> the kubuntu-devel guys have been a great help, especially uniq 
<jsgotangco> hmmm i see the preview already shows 5.10 i guess the entities now reflect that
<froud-work> yes, we are now moving that way. You are seeing development previews
<froud-work> of course the whole docs are not aligned to 5.10 yet :-)
<froud-work> hence the draft in the background of the pages
<jsgotangco> yeah...hmmm heavy editing on the svn lately
<froud-work> all good stuff and great work from mgalvin 
<froud-work> I have asked enrico to get him a commit account
<froud-work> four patches in two days
<jsgotangco> yeah i saw the email
<froud-work> that's good going
<froud-work> for a newbie
<froud-work> so how was your trade show? did you get business?
* mgalvin is glad he glad to be helping out :)
<jsgotangco> there were some potential stuff
<jsgotangco> one guy required docbook stuff
<jsgotangco> seems there is a possible demand for technical docs here
<jsgotangco> despite the very bad political climate here lately
<froud-work> He he, you see
<jsgotangco> i actually got to talk to one guy from toshiba
<froud-work> BTW you want to open an INWords office in your part of the world?\
<jsgotangco> froud-work: i was about to ask that
<froud-work> we can speak about it:-)
<jsgotangco> sure i'll just email you the details
<froud-work> kk
<mdke> hello everyone
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> hey dude
<mdke> how are you?
<jsgotangco> im happy wife is back and i want to go to bed :)
<mdke> good
<mdke> but you can't! mwahahah
<jsgotangco> grrrrr
<mdke> let's keep it short
<jsgotangco> i hereby appoint mdke
<jsgotangco> mwahahaha
<jsgotangco> kidding
<mdke> as what?
<mdke> i get to go to bed on your behalf?
<jsgotangco> NO WAY
<jsgotangco> ok i was thinking you go to my wife
<jsgotangco> gtaylor: morning to you
<squinn> good morning Jer
<squinn> Jerome
<squinn> gotta love extra-45 minutest
<jsgotangco> hello
<squinn> told mom to wake me up at 9, stayed in till 9:45
<gtaylor> greetings
<squinn> we'll be in #ubuntu-meeting right?
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> all meetings are done there
<mdke> heh
<mdke> except non-english ones
<jsgotangco> jgotangco@hula-project.org
<jsgotangco> bwahaha it works
<mdke> cool
<gtaylor> Was the meeting today?
<froud-work> Is the
<jsgotangco> gtaylor: in 15 minutes
<froud-work> hello gtaylor 
<gtaylor> good timing :)
<froud-work> instinct :-)
<gtaylor> indeed!
<froud-work> come with all KDE users
<froud-work> gtaylor: when you have a chance it would be cool if you can edit my work in kuserguide
<gtaylor> froud-work: Ok, I can take a look at it soon
<froud-work> cool, I added stuff to your getting help work
<froud-work> and there has been an edit since then
<gtaylor> sounds good
<jsgotangco> our kubuntu docs are going to be awesome
<froud-work> we hope
<jsgotangco> im sure of that
* froud-work wonders is jsgotangco is com'n back to kde :-)
<jsgotangco> i have been minimalist lately...
<froud> he he
<jsgotangco> ok guys we're starting in a few minutes
<squinn> yep.
<mdke> anyone not already present, meeting now in #ubuntu-meeting
<mdke> jsgotangco, i'm gonna drop into the edubuntu summit tomorrow, what is the deal with the docs?
<jsgotangco> nah, just ask around with the guys
<mdke> you're doing them right?
<jsgotangco> yeah, i mean take the chance to talk to them if you get time to go there, about what weve been doing
<jsgotangco> (shouldn't really be edubuntu specific)
<mdke> ah right ok
<jsgotangco> ok i gotta sleep
<mdke> night night
<jsgotangco> its 12am
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> thanks for the awesome meeting
<jsgotangco> great meeting guys
<jsgotangco> laterz
<squinn> welcome back mdke 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-06
<jsgotangco> morning
<mgalvin> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: hey
<judax> Hello
<JonA> Hey guys, it the transcript of last night's meeting up? I've been snowed under with work this last week like never before :-)
<judax> I have not seen it yet, jsgotangco said he was going to do it when he woke up, I went to the mtg however
<jsgotangco> the chat transcript are always available in fabbione's shell
<judax> jsgotangco: you didn't sleep long
<jsgotangco> i haven't done the minutes...i just woke up 2 hours ago :)
<jsgotangco> yeah i can survive a 4 hour sleep
<judax> that would kill me
<JonA> jsgotangco: Got a URL for fabbione's webspace? Much appreciated :-)
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<jsgotangco> hmmm brb im going to move to gnome
<jsgotangco> need to do some gui stuff now
<jsgotangco> :)
<judax> bah
<jsgotangco> hmm the live hula account doesnt seem to accept email
<JonA> Thanks for the URL, jsgotangco.
<judax> jsgotangco: aren't we basing our docspecs on the one for the StyleGuide?
<jsgotangco> JonA: its in the topic btw :)
<jsgotangco> judax: its favored for consistency, but the premise is that all docs should have an overview
<judax> agreed, I see that froud put some docspec outlines in svn for Kubuntu that are a bit different than the format that the
<judax> Styleguide uses
<judax> I was going to begin writing one and wanted to be consistent
<JonA> jsgotangco: Hey, people read those things?! :-)
<jsgotangco> heh
<judax> nobody ever said that :)
<jsgotangco> hmmm strange the hula calendar app assumes every sched needs an invitation
<jsgotangco> even events
<judax> anyway, I don't think it would look good if all docspecs were done differently
<jsgotangco> i agree
<judax> jsgotangco: I am going to do it on the wiki in the style the jeffsch used and worry about the stuff in svn later
<jsgotangco> yeah i agree we make it simpler first
<waterseven> Hi there... Is anyone here that does translations? I am not sure if this is the right channel to get some help with rosetta.... 
<jsgotangco> sure but translations are now done in launchpad...
<waterseven> launchpad.... I can't find the template that has the 'Add/remove programs' application such that I can translate it.
<jsgotangco> jeezz this meeting minutes is long
<jsgotangco> we covered so much
* Liz is bad for not reading it
<jdub> hello liz.au
<jdub> whereabouts are you?
<Liz> nsw
<Liz> about an hour south of sydney
<Liz> in wollongong
<Liz> i believe your wifes giving a talk next week at sclug :)
<Liz> and im quite looking forwred to it
<jdub> cool
<Burgundavia> apparently Ubuntu has "something with python" 
<Burgundavia> http://www.grep.be/blog/2005/06/30/#ubuntu_debian_sidegrade
<Liz>  btw jdub ..is there a way to produce a filter that will just delete an email on the list instead of defering it?
<Liz> im thinking more of the email lotto emails that have been coming through
<jdub> Burgundavia: we do :)
<jdub> Liz: there's a "discard all marked deferred" at the bottom and top
<Burgundavia> jdub, I thought the comment was funny
<Liz> jdub, is there a way to just filter all the lotto emails out without having to "discard all marked deferred"..or does that do an automatic filter?
<Liz> i kinda thought that would do it on the whole email address
<jdub> Liz: oh, not quite like that, no
<jdub> Liz: when we shift the lists to the datacentre, we'll have reasonable spam filtering and so on
* Burgundavia observes that debian has terrible spam filtering, on less used lists
<Liz> ahh..ok..thought id ask anyway :)
<jsgotangco> hey Liz nice seeing you again
<Burgundavia> the stuff that google is funding for ubuntu has now been posted
<Burgundavia> cool stuff
<Burgundavia> Small business server, firewalls, python modules, simple backup
<jsgotangco> oh so small business server has become a bounty
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> how about xen?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<Burgundavia> if even half this stuff gets finished, it will be great
<Burgundavia> no, it is also bountied
<Burgundavia> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyBounties
<Liz> hi jsgotangco ..everyone..
<Liz> excuse my rudeness for not saying hi earlier
<jsgotangco> no problem i just arrived from lunch
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut froud
<froud> how r u Burgundavia ?
<Liz> hiya froud 
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> my relationship with my ex is getting better
<froud> Liz my darling Linux Chick, where have you been
<froud> Burgundavia: thats good
<Liz> here there and nowhere cause ive been lazy..heh
<Burgundavia> and I learned that one of the people i did Katimavik with has a kid, with another one of the people I did katimvik with
<froud> Katimavik?
<Liz> how are you and family froud ?
<froud> We're good
<froud> cold caus eits winter, but good
<Liz> :)
<Liz> yeah, we have hte same complaint here
<Liz> that and too much rain
<froud> you in middle earth right?
<Liz> well..southern earth more like
* froud has a memory like a siv
<Liz> heh
<Liz> new south wales australia froud
<froud> we dont get rain in the winter, just chills
<Liz> i think i prefer the rain to none
<froud> Oh yeah, no worries
<jsgotangco> i'd pay for winter in my place
<jsgotangco> cost of airconditioning is killing me
<froud> well when I live din Melbourne it seemed to rain all the time
<froud> jsgotangco: noooo heat, gimme heat
<froud> jsgotangco: hot, slippery and swetty nights
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> i didnt know you lived in Melbourne
<froud> yes, was on contract for a year with Medibank Private
* Burgundavia has wrong images of froud in his head now
<Liz> lol
<mdke> morning all
<jsgotangco> no way i'm so tired of hot, humid environments
<Liz> hiya mdke 
<Liz> i dont mind some heat
<froud> jsgotangco: I grew up in Durban, hot and humid
<Liz> and no images Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> btw, meeting minutes almost done, sheeshh..we've covered so much last night the minutes are so long
<mdke> :)
<froud> Burgundavia: wrong images are good
<mdke> but we made lots of decisions
<froud> hello mdke 
* Liz is guilty for not reading any of the previous minutes
<mdke> yo froud 
<Burgundavia> froud, sorry man, but not of you
* mdke is off to edubuntu
<froud> He he I hope not
<jsgotangco> ok let me finish this first
<jsgotangco> argghh
<jsgotangco> mdke: and i was about to ask you to review it first
<jsgotangco> grr
<froud> Liz: you gonna work on some docs
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you write that?
<Liz> shortly froud i will be
<Liz> just about caught up on all things ive put off with uni word
<froud> Cool, are you doing gnome or kde?
<jsgotangco> mdke: write what
<Liz> gnome
<froud> these days
<froud> Ok cool
<mdke> jsgotangco, the doc you committed just now
<jsgotangco> mdke: its in the wiki, its almost done
<jsgotangco> mdke: yeah, it sucks
<mdke> oh
<froud> question to all. Can I move trunk/debain to gnome/debian
<mdke> what page is it in the wiki
<jsgotangco> mdke: not in our wiki
<jsgotangco> mdke: colin applegate wrote that, you should see him in the summit
<jsgotangco> well not should
<jsgotangco> i meant
<jsgotangco> you might see him
<mdke> jsgotangco, in the edubuntu wiki, what url is it
<mdke> i can't find it
<jsgotangco> mdke: its not there, i just grabbed it from the list
<mdke> oh
<mdke> 07:34 < jsgotangco> mdke: its in the wiki
<froud> ppl. Can I move trunk/debain to gnome/debian
<jsgotangco> mdke: i meant the minutes
<jsgotangco> froud: why gnome?
<froud> cause it is only gnome
<froud> and we now have kde/debian
<jsgotangco> hrrmm
<jsgotangco> for consistency?
<mdke> jsgotangco, ah i c
<froud> yes and practical reasons
<froud> during build
<mdke> jsgotangco, is there still a question mark over where the edubuntu docs are going to be worked on?
<jsgotangco> mdke: if you catch up ogra, can you say hi for me
<mdke> alright
<jsgotangco> mdke: yup, its still in flux....still have to wait for the live cd
<mdke> i saw the list thread
<jsgotangco> mdke: and tell ogra not to ignore the fish if its given to him heh
<jsgotangco> mdke: maintaining documentation in moin is not a good idea IMO
<jsgotangco> although its possible
<mdke> yeah i'll let them know the limitations
<mdke> henrik knows em too
<jsgotangco> henrik is coming?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> oh cool
<mdke> thank god
<mdke> otherwise there'd be not a single person i know
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> oh they're incredibly easy to spot
<jsgotangco> ogra looks like a rock guitar player
<mdke> haha
<mdke> i'm not so good at the whole schmoozing thing so fingers crosse
<mdke> d
<jsgotangco> schmoozing?
<jsgotangco> kiss?
<mdke> socialising
<mdke> heh no
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary6
<jsgotangco> can you review that while you're here
<jsgotangco> its almost done, just the wiki part and the jdub part
<mdke> not properly
<mdke> i should leave soon
<jsgotangco> ok
<mdke> looks comprehensive though!
<jsgotangco> jeezz we had 2 solid hours
<jsgotangco> i barely slept..
<mdke> ouch
<jsgotangco> woke up around 5:30AM
<mdke> bloody hell
<jsgotangco> i had to leave by 6am
<mdke> and I thought I hadn't had much sleep
<mdke> ok i'm off
<mdke> see ya later
<jsgotangco> later
<froud> jsgotangco: nice work dude
<jsgotangco> almost done..
<froud> jsgotangco: your wife just came back from KL and you wake up at 5:30AM. No dude
<jsgotangco> :P
<froud> Liz: we need more linux chicks to help out on docs
<froud> Liz: to bring some sanity to us and normalize the testosterone levels
<Liz> heh...yeah right
* Burgundavia refrains from making any sort of comment
<Liz> chicken ..heh
* froud hugs Liz
<Liz> :o
* Burgundavia gives froud the award for longest subject line in history
<froud> huh?
<Burgundavia> your kde vendor drop
<froud> Ah ha, could not be helped, svn does that by itself
<froud> Ok changing computers. C you alllater
<jsgotangco> alright the minutes are done
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary6
<jsgotangco> (long read btw)
<robitaille> thanks for the minute.  And totally agree with the very last quote from jdub (which explain why I didn't make it :) )
<jsgotangco> haha
<judax> whoa
<jsgotangco> it was 2am on his side when it ended
<judax> that commit email is dang near choking Kmail
<jsgotangco> mine was 12am
<robitaille> so I guess I made it to the wiki team without attending?  :)
<robitaille> Which is fine, I was going to send an e-mail about the fact that I'm all for that
<judax> beginnings of a docspec for kquickguide are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KQuickGuide
<froud> when changing /etc/apt/sources.list for the first time, is it worth removing the deb cdrom ?
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't really do that
<robitaille> personally I never use the cdrom in my sources.list
<jsgotangco> i just find it handy though to have it because i wouldn't have to download everything just in case
<robitaille> probably because I can never find my Ubuntu CD... and I know all the updated stuff is online
<jsgotangco> its not an issue really if you have a nice online connection
<judax> I removed it, but I have fat pipe
<froud> yes, just thinking what is best to tell a user
<froud> IMHO once you have the online repos you wont use the CD
<judax> yes
<froud> but then, some people like to install from CD and patch later
<jsgotangco> yeah by default if there is no updated patch, it gets from the cd
<judax> froud: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KQuickGuide as a start
<judax> very young
<jsgotangco> owww you beat me to it
<judax> done quickly, so not proofed or done yet
<froud> judax: cool dude
<froud> I have to port it to svn
<froud> question?
<froud> when doing a dist-upgrade
<froud> is it not better to do it just from a console login
<froud> just incase there are mater to do with the display manager and x
<robitaille> I don't think it matters (but could be wrong).  I have done dist-upgrade from both console and X session, and can
<jdub> no, no reason to
<judax> I have only ever done dist-upgrades from CLI, but I have done them from within the DE, maybe pressing my luck
<robitaille> t remember  having a problem in one case not present in the other
<Liz> bbl..the boy wants to use my machine
<judax> need to sleep, short side of 4am here and the long side of a few Johnnie Walker's, take care
<froud> Hmm, OK thanks
<froud> judax: cheer
<jsgotangco> nice
<froud> dudes you may have seen an upstream kde vendor drop in vendor/kde/doc
<froud> I will send mail to explain its use later
<froud> now question?
<froud> would ppl rather make a copy to trunk/kde/
<froud> or work with it in vendor/kde/doc
<jsgotangco> i have no idea
<froud> anyone else
<froud> darn svn is at 1.0
<froud> can t use links
<froud> need svn 1.1
* froud goes to find elmo
<froud> OK cant find him
* froud goes of fto talk to upstream
<froud> really like the format Jeffsch has started for the doc specs
<froud> simple easy quick
<jsgotangco> oh yeah
<froud> anyone know where I can find information about the graphical installer
<jsgotangco> have you tried the udu wiki?
<froud> yes, I found this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GraphicalInstaller?highlight=%28Installer%29%7C%28Graphical%29
<froud> anyone know how far along this is. Will it be included in a Colony (which one) so we can update the installation guide ?
<jsgotangco> you can try asking Kamion if he's online
<froud> thanks
<froud> kamion is meeting with mdz next week to discuss the graphical installer. When it will be available for documentation is still not known
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Njal> Unfortunatly i have to reinstall my system, due to a failing hard drive amung other things, so i will not be writing patches for the next few days
<jsgotangco> Njal: no worries, patches are always welcome anytime
<Njal> I know, i'd rather not have to reinstall, but i have to, can someone email me the instruction's to set up the CVS again, since everything's gona be wiped
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<jsgotangco> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-docs
<Njal> oh i'll just save the page on to one of my CD's that i'm backing up on to
<froud> Thoughts and ideas on the cover for the the printed version of the Kubuntu User Guide welcome http://lnix.net/~froud/artwork/kubuntu-cover.png
<froud> inkscape src available at https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/artwork/kubuntu-cover.svg
<mgalvin> hi all
<FLeiXiuS> Hey
<froud> Anyone installed Kubuntu Breezy?
<froud> I'm having problems with the dist-upgrade
<froud> when it finished xserver, kdm and kde are all removed
<froud> only a console remains
<froud> anyone else had this problem?
<FLeiXiuS> Might want to try #kubuntu :-P
<judax> froud: I think there are X issues from what I read on the lists and boards, but there are easy fixes/workarounds
<froud> pointers?
<froud> URL
<judax> froud: I have not done upgrade just what I read
<judax> froud: bah, just whacked all my list mail
<froud> OK, need to get a breezy running soon, there are some heavy changes. KControl Center is replaced with KDE-SystemSettings
<judax> there is a pretty active current breezy X thread, I will ping you when I find it
<froud> judax: Riddle has pointed me here http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuRoadmap
<froud> but knowing what is and is not being worked on is hit-and-run
<froud> Strange Ubuntu did work with a few nudges
<judax> ok, I'll take a look at that page
<mdke> evening all
<jjesse> afternoon
<froud> hello jjesse take a look at http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuRoadmap
<judax> well, there goes the Kynaptic documentation
<jjesse> YaY
<froud> yep
<froud> Kapture
<froud> but the main problem is that it is hard to know what is and is notbeing worked on
<froud> hard to plan docs when its like this
<froud> and a colony cd for breezy k is way to close to release
<jjesse> that colony cd will be both ubuntu and kubuntu right?
<froud> well either way
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-07
<mdke> evening all
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi there
* mdke watches his browser crash on froud's commits
<Burgundavia> I forgot about the meeting yesterday
<mdke> np, catch the log?
<Burgundavia> read the summary
<mdke> ok i haven't got there yet
* mdke waits for his browser to uncrash
<Burgundavia> happened to see the summary in the recent changes on the wiki
<mdke> thoughts?
<Burgundavia> looks good
<mdke> yeah i thought it was a good meeting
<Burgundavia> the style guide has little interest to me, to be honest
<Burgundavia> I am glad someone else has done it
<mdke> i think it is fairly important
<mdke> geez my browser is actually still crashed
<mdke> froud is using svn to store the whole kde archive or something
<Burgundavia> what do you use for mail?
<mdke> just reading it in webmail right now
<mdke> but normally i use evolution
<mdke> i xkilled the browser
<mdke> his commit is 2.2MB
<mdke> just the commit log
<mdke> ah i see jerome had gone in for some comedy in the meeting summary
<mdke> nice touch
<mdke> burgs
<mdke> http://www.marzocca.net/linux/baobab.html
* Burgundavia senses an Ubuntu screenshot
<Burgundavia> did you see my latest post to the planet?
<mdke> will check
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i met some Ubuntu people today
<mdke> it was nice
<Burgundavia> at the edubuntu summit?
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> how was the summit?
<mdke> pretty good
<mdke> a bit disorganised
<Burgundavia> not surprised
<mdke> because basically it was a lot of different groups sharing experiences of things
<mdke> but it was very interesting for me, as an observer, and I think useful for them
<Burgundavia> I think edubuntu is going to be one of biggest growth places for ubuntu
<mdke> the most incredible thing is that I didn't realise the scope and success of existing projects
<Burgundavia> skolelinux and others?
<mdke> guadalinex seem to dominate the school market in andalucia
<Burgundavia> are we talking merging all the existing projects into edubuntu?
<mdke> they have 200,000 installations
<mdke> in norway skolelinux are rocking too
<mdke> erm not merging, but guadalinex will be derived from ubuntu
<mdke> skolelinux is debian based
<Burgundavia> already is, I thought
<Burgundavia> cool
<mdke> for next release they intend to be
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to run
<mdke> okies
<mdke> me too
<mdke> bed
<Burgundavia> I was supposed to be at my brothers an hour ago
<mdke> ok have fun
<njal> lo
<froud> African Greetings
<Liz> kiwi greetings froud 
<froud> :-)
<Liz> a question re the moodle site
<froud> sure
<Liz> the glossary
<Liz> is there a way to get it to have the two meanings for the one work listed in there?
<Liz> for example..reading a sentence that used the word "case"
<Liz> it throws the context of the sentence out, if you believe the meaning it gives there on the word "case"
<froud> we would have to speak to ryan he can change that part
<Liz> couple of the questions throw me as well, cause its not mentioend at all in the text given
<froud> OK, so what we shoul do is you send me the stuff by mail and I will talk to ryan
<froud> try give urls
<froud> that way we know where you found the problems
<froud> the moodle is a backend website under the forrest
<froud> I don't admin that part
<froud> just the frontend stuff
<Liz> ok..im just going through it again to double check ..just in case i did miss it
<Liz> but i didnt
<froud> anything in the repository that is docbook I can do
<Liz> i havaent even started on the docbook stuff..though i did d/l it some time ago
<froud> He he its a big set of docs
<Liz> its huge
<froud> we have a fork here at ubuntu
<froud> so we can custom the material for ubuntu
<froud> yes it took 6 people 7 months to do :-)
<Liz> im sure everything i have re docbook and the ubuntu docs is out of date
<froud> yes it is
<froud> oneday I must go through it and update
<Liz> oh rats..i cant get back into the quizz cause ive already done them 5 times
<mdke> morning all
* mdke growls at froud 
<froud> morning grumpy
<froud> what's your problem today
<mdke> i got a 2.2MB email yesterday
<froud> he he upstream vendor drop
<froud> I did say, "Silence will be interpreted as consent"
<froud> and a week later with silence I did it
<mdke> was the question "should I do a kde vendor drop?" or "should I send an enormous email?"
<mdke> joking aside, looks like kde do lots of good work on their docs?
<froud> yes very good
<froud> different approach
<mdke> that's cool
<froud> in kde all docs are free for all work on
<froud> in gnome you must ask the maintainer
<froud> so in KDE more things get done
<mdke> hmm
<froud> but kde is big
<froud> and has a good system
<froud> also lauri watts is brilliant
<mdke> i don't know whether the gnome doc project just like to leave their webpages out of date to give the impression that the project is dead, or whether it is actually dead
<froud> she is a hard cookie
<froud> well they have been running on sun
<froud> now sun moved out, they have problems
<mdke> sun moved out?
<froud> but I am sure they will pick it up again
<mdke> i thought they didn't
<froud> yes, they, the technical writer, have too much work on other projects
<mdke> in any case, sun probably didn't write up to date docs
<froud> s/writer/writers
<mdke> cos they don't use new versions of gnome
<froud> dude, sun did a huge amount
<mdke> maybe they did a lot on 2.6 docs
<mdke> solaris uses 2.6 iirc
<froud> thanks to sun that many apps have manual
<mdke> that is good i guess
<mdke> some apps don't get out of date quickly
<froud> if it was not for sun gnome docs would practically not exist
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i wonder whether they attract contributors or not
<froud> a few
<froud> now why do you think ppl at ubuntu are so eager for us to work with upstream :-)
<froud> I think we should
<mdke> 1 person is keen froud 
<mdke> and he hasn't done any work at least since I arrived 4 months ago
<mdke> it would be nice to help gnome docs, maybe I will do some later, but right now we don't have enough people contributing to the gnome side
<froud> but at the same time if defocuses us
<froud> and the way gnome has setup cvs makes it hard to get all the docs in one place
<froud> in gnome each app has docs with it
<froud> in kde the docs are all in one folder
<froud> and its easy now because KDE uses svn
<froud> I thin kubuntu also want and svn
<froud> he he
<froud> well ther eyou go
<froud> as you know I am focused on Kubuntu, at least until breezy is released
<froud> news is we now have a debian that you can build
<froud> hey jeffsch 
<froud> I will start uploading debs at lnix/~froud from today
<jeffsch> hey
<froud> di dyou get my mail
<jeffsch> yeah. but i had too many castle lagers to understand it
<froud> Castle
<jeffsch> i sent something back, hope it makes sense
<froud> that's South African stuff
<Liz> why is there more on KDE and not GNOME?
<mdke> i checked out gnome cvs yesterday
<froud> chemicals dude, pure chemicals
<mdke> it is incredibly disorganised
<jeffsch> yeah. i saw it in the beer store, so i had to get it
<Liz> tho..the documentation in GNOME is not that good
<froud> Liz: come to kde darling
<froud> jeffsch: you guys should really see the new kde-systemsettings
<froud> KControl is being relaced in Kubuntu
<Liz> i used to use kde
<jeffsch> bah. kde.
<Liz> but i prefer gnome
<Liz> its just ..prettier
<jeffsch> i tried kde. now i use gnome
<froud> NO WAY
<Liz> kde feels falt and clunky to me
<froud> kde is light years ahead
<Liz> fat that is
<mdke> it is slower
<mdke> gnome is simpler and less cluttered IMO
<froud> pah
<mdke> kde is good though
<Liz> kde is good
<froud> dudes kde is so way ahead
<froud> checkout DCOP
<froud> script the desktop
<jeffsch> i use gnome except for kate and konversation
<froud> you guys tried DCOP?
<jeffsch> the k's turn me off
<jeffsch> is DCOP KDE? if so, why isn't it DKOP?
<froud> who cares about the k's when the apps are solid
<froud> there is KDCOP
<froud> DCOP for console
<froud> KDCOP for gui
* froud says a prayer for lost gnome soles
<froud> dig dig
<jeffsch> frous: that's souls, not soles. :)
<froud> no soles
<jeffsch> oops, s/frous/froud
<froud> as in gnome foot
<froud> pun
<jeffsch> aahh, hehe
<froud> one thing about kde development is that I find them very freindly
<froud> and not so religious
<froud> the chaps at kde have also recognized documentation in their goals
<mdke> i gtg
<froud> without anyone of us pushing it
<mdke> going to the cricket
<froud> bye
<mdke> have a good day yall
<jeffsch> ciao mdke
<froud> he  cool the kubuntu doc deb works
<Liz> email sent froud 
<froud> thanks
<Liz> all blacks vs british and irish lions on soon
<froud> go all blacks
<Liz> yeah..should be a good game
<Liz> south africa vs wallabies after this
<Liz> go springboks
<froud> go ama-bokke-bokke
<froud> ama-bokke-bokke=Springboks
<Liz> cool..ill remember that
<Liz> well..i wont really..i have very short term memory sometimes..heh
<froud> Hmm a Linux chick that digs rugga
<Liz> you taken note of the cricket fiasco?
<Liz> between nz and zimbabwe
<froud> no dont like cricket
<froud> what happened
<Liz> my dad is a rugby fanatic...i grew up in that
<Liz> watched every game..every replay...on every channel
<froud> makes sense if you're a kwiwi
<Liz> oh..zimbabwe's leader is considered a dictator now, and has invited the nz cricket team to tour there
<froud> rugga is a religion
<Liz> but nz has denied visas to the zimbabwe cricket team
<froud> ha ha ha
<froud> ha ha
<Liz> as a protest against his rule
<froud> lol
<froud> yeah old robert is seriously pickled
<Liz> he reminds me of castro
<froud> sooner he dies the better
<Liz> saw a replay on his interview with barb walters a week ago
<Liz> well someones gotta shoot him .eventually
<froud> and th eking of swaziland who has 13 or 14 wives
<Liz> polyandry isnt anything new tho
<froud> while his people suffer
<Liz> arab princes have that many wives
<froud> he live th elife
<Liz> i dont blame them in a way
<Liz> you always want what you didnt have growing up
<Liz> so once you get it..you just go all out 
<froud> yeah but that mentality treats women like animals
<Liz> its always been that way tho in some cultures froud
<froud> the status of women in those places is zero, it sucks
<froud> I know I live here remember and also lived in the middle east
<Liz> it sucks, but not much you can do about it 
<Liz> its a slow slow slow process
<froud> yeah, good news is South Africa now has a female vice-president
<froud> we have a stong drive over hear for the empowerment of women
<Liz> hows that going to help?
<Liz> well..fingers crossed
<Liz> i know indira ghandi did the same thing when she ws in power
<froud> women need to be empowered to play a role in driving the economy
<Liz> and it did help the women in her country
<Liz> for a while
<Liz> try to all blacks !
<Liz> score is 11-7 to us
<froud> shit I can't see
<froud> ok liz running commentary
<froud> go girl
<Liz> lol
<Liz> and its converted
<Liz> go watch the game froud 
<Liz> im going over there to watch it
<froud> cant
<Liz> :(
<froud> on the women thang
<froud> here in Africa we really need to have more women in executive and leadership positions
<froud> and we need to change our culture
<froud> its the only way to bring down the rate of domestic abuse and rape in the country
<Liz> http://www.herhands.com/ <-- ever read this book?
<Liz> tho you probably havent, it only came out this year
<froud> no I never read anything excpt computer books :-)
<froud> I know I need help
<Liz> talks about how women in different countries, actually have a 'community bank account' where they can make money to provide for their family
<Liz> all from craft6
<Liz> its really heartbreaking to know how much they earn and how much they go through just to make money to feed their family
<froud> yeah while the men drink the money away
<froud> many women here can't read
<Liz> while the men that are there, spend theirs on stuff for themselves
<Liz> that wasnt in all countries..just some of them
<froud> yeah
<froud> I do some work in the rural areas
<froud> its shocking the way life is
<froud> even though I grew up here, I never got accustomed to seeing women working the fields with babies on their back while the men sit under a tree and talk
<Liz> but those women dont complain..they just get on with it and do what needs to be done
<froud> they know better than to complain
<Liz> true
<Liz> another sad fact
<froud> or face a stick
<Liz> i went through spousal abuse..once
<froud> sorry to hear that
<Liz> no man hits me and thinks he can get away with it
<Liz> dont be..was a long time ago
<froud> ata girl
<Liz> i try to help women in the same situation when i can
<Liz> penalty kick to lions
<Liz> 13 -10 to allblacks
<froud> over here we are starting to build the structures to help them. th elaw has also changed, but not enough yet
<froud> arrh
<Liz> its gonna be hard to break the religion part of that behavour too
<Liz> where women are considered "property"
<froud> In the middle east particularly
<Liz> penalty kick to all blacks now
<froud> sssshhhh
<Liz> 16 - 10
<froud> yay
<Liz> 12 mins remaining
<froud> go all balcks
<Liz> hehe
<Liz> im sure you'll see the replay
<froud> later today
<Liz> i wont spoil the second half for you tehn
<Liz> heh
<Liz> both teams are temperamental today
<Liz> second fight
<Liz> another penalty to the lions
<Liz> 16 - 13
<Liz> ok..im gonna go
<Liz> the boy is nagging me..he wants to log on and talk to his friends
<Liz> i really gotta build his own machine
<Liz> bye all
<froud> when building packages how to I bump up the part of the version number after the - for example 0.1-X
<froud> jeffsch: ping
<froud> jeffsch: I change the html.stylesheet param to <xsl:param name="html.stylesheet" select="'/usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/common/kde-default.css'"/>
<froud> in my next build it will use this value for resolving the stylesheets
<froud> jeffsch: but this assumes a KDE system
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-08
* Burgundavia grumbles about writing cover letters
<Burgundavia> there goes nothign
<mdke> Burgundavia, what is breezy like right now?
<mdke> its time I got a breezy partition
<Burgundavia> there is an issue with esd
<mdke> bah
<Burgundavia> which makes gnome not load about half the time
<mdke> oh
<Burgundavia> my custom gdm theme is gone
<Burgundavia> and cursors are borked
<Burgundavia> but your mileage may vary
<mdke> ok sounds good
<Burgundavia> if you really want to be useful
<Burgundavia> install a default hoary
<Burgundavia> update it
<Burgundavia> then upgrade
<Burgundavia> and file any bugs your find
* mdke nods
<Burgundavia> there is a bug for that
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<mdke> what is a good way to resize my existing partitions you think?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<mdke> what is any way to do it?
<Burgundavia> I would test the paritioners
<Burgundavia> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12301
<Burgundavia> that is the root but for all upgrade issues
<mdke> the breezy partitioners?
<mdke> or the hoary
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> colony 3 will have the new live/install intergration work
<mdke> colony 2 is only just out i thought
<Burgundavia> just
<Burgundavia> s/just/yes
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> hmm, that was an interesting typo
<mdke> so either I do a breezy install or a hoary install
<mdke> i think hoary maybe
<mdke> how the hell do meta bugs work?
<Burgundavia> the root bug depends on
<Burgundavia> and the tree bugs block
<mdke> in terms of filing the bug, what do I need to do to get it a dependency of that root bug?
<Burgundavia> just mark it as a blocker of the root bug
<Burgundavia> I think that should automagically do it
<mdke> blocker?
<mdke> dup?
<Burgundavia> blocker
<mdke> i can't see that in the interface
<mdke> lemme check better
<mdke> ok see it
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> cool
<Burgundavia> the other thing I am going to test is to install almost everything in main and then upgrade
<Burgundavia> and see what happens
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you are a machine!
<Burgundavia> I have a spare machine
<Burgundavia> wow, I actually just saw the pulsing thing for the first time
<froud> African Greetings
<Njal> lo all
<froud> lo Njal 
<Njal_> guys i think there might be an error in the gnome userguide, can someone confirm?
<mdke> froud, how do you do that thing with the userguide?
<froud> what thing?
<mdke> that thing you just uploaded
<mdke> where you align the paragraphs differently
<froud> URL?
<mdke> there is no URL
<mdke> you just committed it now
<froud> AH you mean indent the xml
<mdke> "make valid and well formed"
<mdke> yeah
<froud> Hmmm pretty print
<froud> I think tidy does that for you
<mdke> well you must know how you did it no?
<froud> you can use http://1060research-server-1.co.uk/docs/1.0.0/docxter/doc_ext_sys_ura_xmltidy.html
<mdke> its ok, i liked it how it was before, but i was just curious as to how you did it
<mdke> wb Njal 
<Njal> thanks, sorry about the error thing was a false alarm
<mdke> Njal, just to clarify, you are talking about the ubuntu user guide when you say "gnome user guide" right?
<froud> Njal: use the validate.sh to validate your docs before patching
<Njal> Yes the gnome userguide part of it
<froud> Njal: the patch is applied and fixed
<mdke> better not to apply the patch so that people can correct it and learn IMO
<Njal> How do i use the validate script properly, coz sometimes it passes sometimes it fails, i don't know what to do if it fails
<froud> nah just get on with it
<froud> just do ./validate.sh path/to/foo.xml
<mdke> Njal, just to clarify, the gnome user guide is a wholly different document and is not in our repository, so if you are working on userguide.xml, that is the ubuntu userguide
<Njal> yes, but we have gnome and kde aspects of the ubuntu guide i was refering to our gnome guide
<mdke> froud, if you keep fixing people's errors without telling them what is wrong, they won't learn
<mdke> Njal, I see, ok, just so that you are clear on that
<froud> mdke: rather fix and ensure they are making progress
<froud> not patching makes it frustrating for people
<froud> rather fix and patch
<Njal> Yup, though it's the validate script i don't understand, I can run it, but if it fail's i don't know what to fix so i just send it to the list in the hopes someone will know how to fix it
<mdke> froud, its best to give feedback on what is wrong
<froud> OK fine
<mdke> Njal, the validate script should tell you exactly where the problem is, it will refer to a specific line in the code
<froud> Njal: if you know the patch has a problem you cant fix just say so in the message
<mdke> so that should help you find the problem
<Njal> oh, i will remember that
<froud> Njal: but try to figure it out
<mdke> its normally quite straightforward if you read it carefully
<froud> Njal: in general have you looked at the Docbook Definitive Guide
<mdke> most errors are typos
<Njal> Yes, many times
<mdke> so using a syntax highlighting editor will also help
<Njal> Gedit
<mdke> you've read the docbook guide?
<mdke> then I would say you won't have problems diagnosing any errors in your work
<Njal> Half the battle's understanding. i can re-read it all i want but until i understand it im hitting a brick wall
<Njal> I can say though i am getting there
<Njal> slowly
<mdke> :)
<froud> Njal: it's ok, work at it, if you have a problem I will help
<mdke> brb
<Njal> I will don't worry
<Njal> i'm working on the command prompt bit right now, though how do you remove a directory?
<froud> yes I see
<froud> rm -rf dirname
<Njal> Right thought as much
<froud> read the man (man rm) :-)
<Njal> ... i haddn't thought of that, sorry my file system had become corrupted so i just rebuilt it, that's what's been on my mind right now
<mdke> perhaps maybe add a warning that that command can be very dangerous
<mdke> new users such as those reading that guide might easily remove valuable thing
<Njal> Im talking them through creating a directory, using it then removing it, not going onto system folders or sudo... yet
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i believe there is a separate section on sudo somewhere
<Njal> probibly, but i aint found it yet
<jeffsch> howdy folks
<mdke> hey jeffsch 
<froud> hey jeffsch 
<jeffsch> i've just been reading the harnessing user guide thread
<mdke> aha
<froud> jeffsch: you may want to update the ubuntu XML_CATALOG for ubuntu stuff
<Njal> lo
<mdke> jeffsch, thoughts on that?
<froud> jeffsch: it will have processing faster
<jeffsch> mdke: yeah. I have an idea that might work (based on ideas in the thread)
<mdke> shoot
<jeffsch> but it's not entirely efficient, and will be more work in the medium term
<mdke> i have been looking around in the gnome-docs cvs and in their irc channel
<mdke> afaics the team is wholly dead
<jeffsch> but also has beneficial side effects
<jeffsch> here it is: copy the gnome user guide to svn
<jeffsch> turn it into the ubuntu user guide
<jeffsch> after breezy, separate  out the gnome stuff and push it upstream
<mdke> i couldn't find a copy of the source for the userguide
<mdke> i found a couple of the java desktop ones, but not the one that was published for 2.10
<mdke> jeffsch, i think that would be a lot of work, although a nice idea
<mdke> it would involve us updating the entire document
<jeffsch> it will be a lot of work
<jeffsch> yep. but it will be updated and valid for breezy
<jeffsch> instead of not updated and not valid for breezy
<mdke> jeffsch, essentially what you are suggesting is similar to us becoming the gnome/ubuntu documentation team
<froud> jeffsch: vendor drop it and use it to build th eubuntu docs
<mdke> froud, we can't do that because of it being so out of date
<froud> jeffsch: if you need to make changes directly to it, then do them in your drop and push them to gnome
<froud> mdke: yes you can
<froud> you can make changes in svn
<mdke> ok that is essentially the same suggestion that jeffsch made
<jeffsch> froud: that's one option, but I'm talking about something different
<froud> and push the changes upstream
<jeffsch> mdke: not really
<mdke> in terms of workload
<jeffsch> i'm talking about converting gnome user guide into ubuntu user guide
<froud> jeffsch: yes I read that
<mdke> jeffsch, that would involve using the things that we have added right?
<mdke> seems to me to be the same as doing a vendor drop and updating it there
<froud> mdke: what jeffsch is saying is that Ubuntu user guide will be a set of patches on the Gnome user guide
<jeffsch> i'm talking about replacing what we have in svn now with the gnome user guide from gnome cvs
<jeffsch> froud: no
<mdke> jeffsch, so you would envisage using the other stuff in the current userguide or not?
<froud> jeffsch: I would not count on the GDP being so dead
<jeffsch> mdke: the ubuntu specific stuff, yeah
<mdke> just dumping all the stuff about ubuntu/installation/free software etc?
<mdke> ok in terms of workloads i don't see the difference between the two suggestions
<froud> minute
<froud> if you do a v drop
<froud> you wil have the abulity to push upstream
<froud> and if you use gug
<froud> as your base for uug
<froud> you will be able to benefit from work here and upstream
<froud> I would not discount the gdp coming alive again
<froud> better to manage a copy in trunk that is uug
<mdke> i agree it is a good idea froud 
<mdke> my point however is that we don't have enough people working to adopt either solution
<froud>  and merge changes that are gnome back into our v drop
<froud> that way you can update the upstream
<froud> you may also be able to bring some of the gnome authors to ubuntu
<froud> :-)
<mdke> yes, but there are no gnome authors working on the userguide
<froud> there are
<froud> you need to engage them individually
<froud> and explain how it works
<froud> the management of this need care
<mdke> i have to engage the gnome authors and say "sorry, but your guide is about a year out of date"
<mdke> ??
<froud> or you will endup with ubuntu stuff going upstream
<froud> well, they are approachable
<mdke> some of the gdp website has not been updated since 2003 and refers to gnome 1
<froud> not all will join you
<froud> hehe
<froud> yes
<mdke> my point is that if there were people working on the userguide, it wouldn't be so out of date
<mdke> i think what has happened is, the name has been changed to 2.10 and nothing else
<froud> well I think that you will get les work that writing a user guide from scratch
<froud> I am considering the same approach with kde
<mdke> yeah, but you said kde have good docs
<froud> they do
<froud> but kubuntu in breezy will not use kcontrol
<jeffsch> it might be difficult for us to update the gug for the gdp because default gnome desktop is different than default ubuntu desktop
<froud> they will use kde-system settings
<froud> jeffsch: yes this is why I say it will be hard to manage
<froud> jeffsch: in the end you may decide it is just better to fork the code
<jeffsch> which is where my idea comes from. start with gug, and transform it into ubuntuuser guide
<froud> fork
<froud> and then instruct the devs not to ship gug
<jeffsch> froud: exactly. ship uug in place of gug
<froud> makes sense dude
* mdke nods
<froud> jeffsch: why dont you branch
<froud> create a folder branches/jjeffsch/
<mdke> the problem is that the gnome userguide is the help for many applications, such as nautilus
<mdke> if our docs are html, that will cause some problems no?
<froud> jeffsch: svn list https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches
<froud> mdke: yes it could, but doesn't nautilus have its own docs
<mdke> they are part of the gnome user guide i think
<jeffsch> froud: i want more discussion with the others before taking that step
<froud> jeffsch: if you do it in a branch you will not need to
<froud> jeffsch: you can experiment there
<mdke> you can play around with the idea
<froud> jeffsch: without impacting anyone
<mdke> i still prefer copying gnome stuff into our userguide though
<froud> jeffsch: later, if it works, we can merge it to trunk
<froud> mdke: if jeffsch 's idea works you will be
<froud> :-) the whole bollody thing
<mdke> you know what I mean
<froud> jeffsch: can you branch gnome/userguide/
<froud> try it and see what happens
<froud> you cant lose anything
<jeffsch> froud: i'll look into it.
<jeffsch> mdke: yeah, nautilus uses gug for its help
<froud> let me know if you want help with the branching
<froud> jeffsch: ouch
<froud> so they will have to ship gug
<mdke> yes
<jeffsch> how does that work? does nautilus open yelp and point it to the xml file directly?
<mdke> yes
<froud> yes
<froud> snap
<mdke> if you think you have to time to update the gug, best thing IMO is to go with the froud vendor drop idea
<mdke> otherwise, I would suggest we use bits of the gug as we see fit to enhance our ug
<froud> well you guys let me know what you decide and I will help you get whatever you want into svn
<froud> vendor or branch
<jeffsch> the biggest good part of the gug is the style of writing.
<froud> that is so you jeffsch 
<froud> :-)
<mdke> njal has a strange style of writing
<jeffsch> the style in the uug right now is not good, and it will take lots of learning to get it better
<jeffsch> the gug stuff can act as a good example of style
<jeffsch> if it's there in people's faces, they will be able to better emulate it
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but copying in bits of the gug would help with that too
<jeffsch> true
* froud is reminded that he must merge kde upstream to our vendor
<mdke>  <para>Again the command is simple, to remove the newfolder type cd ~ (just to get you outside of the directory before you delete it) now type rm -rf newfolder, how do you know it is gone? Simple, type your prefered command for viewing directorys, is newfolder there? It shouldnt be. Congratulations you have used the basic file management functions in the terminal.</para>
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> very stream of consciousness
<mdke> jeffsch, how about forcing everyone to read the styleguide? that would help
<jeffsch> hmmm... draconian.... I like it!
<jeffsch> it might be more useful to give feedback that points to the style guide
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> same thing
<mdke> ;)
<jeffsch> maybe have a couple of before and after passages on wiki somewhere
<jeffsch> for example, convert the sample you pasted here into a proper format
<mdke> jeffsch, you think the whole of the userguide is bad? or are some bits worse than others?
<mdke> because a lot of the early sections are marked "done"
<jeffsch> tbh, i haven't look at the whole userguide, just glance through some sections to see what's happening
<mdke> ah k
<mdke> i have to go out
<mdke> will someone apply njal's patch but give him some feedback on the language?
<mdke> later I'll continue my hunt for the gug source
<jeffsch> I don't think we need to single out njal... it's a general thing applicable to all
<jeffsch> but i'll see if i can come up with something
<mdke> nono you misunderstand me
<mdke> he has just posted a patch to the list, that's all
<mdke> i would apply it but i have to go
<jeffsch> ahh... ok.
<mdke> i know he appreciates feedback
<jeffsch> i have to go too... if it hasn't been applied when i get back, i'll do it.
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> bye
<mdke> hey robitaille :)
<mdke> jeffsch, do we have a recent html preview of the styleguide?
<judax> mdke, thanks for the tip on using Bluefish, it truely does rock.  I use it whether I am in gnome or kde
<mdke> judax, yeah its so awesome. i only discovered it recently too
<jeffsch> mdke: cd ubuntu-doc/gnome
<jeffsch> mdke: make sg
<jeffsch> html files are in build/styleguide/
<mdke> jeffsch, I found an html and pdf in the styleguide directory itself, are those not updated?
<jeffsch> no
<mdke> shall I remove them?
<jeffsch> you can remove the html
<mdke> maybe you better do it
<jeffsch> i put the pdf in there for people who don't have apache fop and can't build it themselves
<mdke> cool
<mdke> we should get them online and update the instructions on how to build em in the wiki
<jeffsch> yeah. i was planning on waiting until we get a web location for the files
<mdke> ok
<mdke> sounds fair
<jeffsch> but that doesn't stop you from going ahead and doing it... hint hint hint
<mdke> the wiki page still refers to make styleguide in the styleguide/ directory
<mdke> ok i will change the wiki
<jeffsch> yeah. I just added the make target in the gnome Makefile the other day
<mdke> ok
<mdke> how come in gnome?
<jeffsch> mostly because i use gnome
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-09
<jeffsch> it would work just as well in the kde Makefile
<jeffsch> it's more practical than logical
<mdke> is there no common makefile?
<jeffsch> not at the moment
<mdke> ok i've updated the wiki page
<jeffsch> hmm... the samples aren't perfect yet...
<jeffsch> jeff@cloud:~/ubuntu-doc/styleguide $ make sg
<mdke> whoops sorry
<mdke> will do
<jeffsch> and maybe webbrowser should be two words
<mdke> pah
* mdke slaps jeffsch 
<mdke> done
<jeffsch> i waited just the right amount of time, eh?
<jeffsch> now there's one more change...
<jeffsch> oops, never mind
<jeffsch> mdke: did you do make sg on your system?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> looks great
<mdke> i was thinking we should have the stylesheets in the repo
<mdke> i build em nicely on this system (Ubuntu) but not on systems with different addresses for the stylesheets
<jeffsch> it is: gnome/default.css
<mdke> i mean the xml->html stylesheets
<jeffsch> the customization stylesheets are, but the rest are standard location
<jeffsch> if you have docbook installed, then you have the stylesheets installed
<jeffsch> customization layer stylesheets are in gnome/libs
<mdke> jeffsch, but for example on my gentoo system the stylesheets are in a different location, so the builds don't work
<jeffsch> i smell an XML_CATALOG issue...
<jeffsch> [10:46]  <froud> jeffsch: you may want to update the ubuntu XML_CATALOG for ubuntu stuff
<mdke> its just because the stylesheets are referred to by location, so when the location changes the build doesn't work
<jeffsch> i don't know much about it tho
<mdke> i don't think it is because of that
<mdke> its the same for froud's stuff iirc
<jeffsch> so the fault is yours for using gentoo then. :)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but the same applies to suse and other stuff
<mdke> actually what am I saying
<mdke> everyone here uses Ubuntu
<mdke> we don't need the stylesheets in our repo
<jeffsch> i suppose if you want to build ubuntu docs on non ubuntu machines, you gotta deal with stuff
<mdke> yup
<mdke> so why did you ask if I'd done make sg earlier?
<jeffsch> to see it the stylesheet customization works on other machines
<jeffsch> it wasn't working until the other day
<mdke> ah
<mdke> the css is the same as for froud's stuff with a pale draft thing on the background
<jeffsch> i got it working on mine, updated the repos, and etc etc
<mdke> we should get some ubuntu bling in
<mdke> maybe henrik will do it
<jeffsch> yeah, i just copied the default.css from the kde folders
<jeffsch> yeah ubuntu bling is the next step
<jeffsch> hey guess what... take a look at gnome/Makefile
<jeffsch> it looks like froud added stuff so stylesheets are found on SUSE machines
<jeffsch> maybe you could do the same for gentoo
<mdke> good plan
<mdke> so jeffsch you have learnt how to convert html and such?
<mdke> /html/to html
<jeffsch> you mean xslt?
<mdke> i dunno
<mdke> but you think you might be able to take care of producing make targets for the gnome stuff?
<jeffsch> you mean like make ug for user guide, etc?
<mdke> that sort of thing
<jeffsch> already done.
<jeffsch> try it
<mdke> sure, but in future too
<jeffsch> yeah. hopefully there won't be much to change in the future
<mdke> hope so
<mdke> just sort the css i guess
<jeffsch> yeah. a new css with ubuntu bling would be nice
<mdke> we can ask henrik
<jeffsch> yeah. that stuff prolly already exists 
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> just need to merge it with the current css you and froud are using right?
<jeffsch> hopefull, just have to replace default.css
<mdke> cool
<mdke> for draft we could use the theme from the wiki css draft page
<jeffsch> mdke: did you apply njal's patch?
<mdke> jeffsch, yep
<mdke> he wrote and said he appreciated the feedback and would work on it
<jeffsch> ok. his writing style is pretty cool. but, alas, we are writing tech docs...
<mdke> yep
* robitaille robitaille is finally here, 60 mins after starting his IRC client; hi mdke!
<mdke> i referred him to the styleguide but also said that the styleguide didn't have a lot of stuff on grammar/style yet so to use the links provided
<mdke> hey robitaille :)
* jeffsch thinks robitaille needs to upgrade his 486
<robitaille> hello again.  I started irrsi in a window, then totally forgot about it while doing other stuff
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> looks like mediawiki isn't packaged for sarge
<mdke> oh, or ubuntu
<mdke> ok i've found the gnome ug jeffsch 
<mdke> its big and v complicated
<jeffsch> is it split across a bunch of files?
<mdke> yeah looks like it
<mdke> i'm still checking out the enormous cvs right now
<mdke> all the languages have their own screenshots
<mdke> if we use the gnome ug we should figure out a way to use the translations...
<mdke> ;)
<jeffsch> will it be compatible with rosetta?
<mdke> boh
<mdke> i have no idea how they organise their translations
<mdke> gnome don't like rosetta because it provides no means of pushing translations upstream that by rights should be done originally in rosetta
<jeffsch> hmmm... it's getting more and more complicated
<mdke> don't worry
<mdke> most of the translations are probably years old
<mdke> the italian ones were committed 2 years ago
<mdke> ditto fr
<jeffsch> yikes! it must make life a little difficult for new user trying to learn gnome desktop
<mdke> yep
<mdke> so what do you think we should do with this gnome ug
<mdke> jeffsch, ^^
<jeffsch> add in the complication that ubuntu desktop is slightly different than gnome desktop
<jeffsch> i think i need to read it more before knowing for sure what to do
<jeffsch> in the end, we should do whatever is best for ubuntu users
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> jeffsch, i might put it in svn and we can look at it and then discuss at next meeting
<mdke> what do you think?
<jeffsch> sounds good
<mdke> just the en ;)
<mdke> i'll put it in teamstuff
<jeffsch> yeah. and gnome calls en C for some reason
<mdke> yes
<jeffsch> i think we should worry less about what we can push upstream, and more about the ubuntu user experience
<mdke> agreed
<mdke> jeffsch, should I include the screenshots in my commit? might make a quite large
<jeffsch> i would include them. people need to see that they are not ubuntu
<mdke> ouch ok here goes
<jeffsch> gnome docs try to avoid screenshots anyway, so it shouldn't be too large
<jeffsch> at least in theory :)
<mdke> ok here it comes
<mdke> phew
* mdke strokes his upload connection
<jeffsch> hmm... not too bad... only 5M
<mdke> heh
<mdke> takes a while on 128 upload
<jeffsch> changelog says last update was 2004-08-27
<jeffsch> but nothing substantial since 2004-04-20
<mdke> last cvs commit was 3 months ago
<mdke> i think all he did was probably to put his name on the top and change it to gnome 2.10 ;)
<mdke> that's WRONG man
<jeffsch> hey... there's two pdf files in there for a total of 2.8M
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> i'll remove em shall I?
<jeffsch> one is gnome 2.2 and the other gnome 2.4
<jeffsch> not your fault!
<jeffsch> yeah, remove em
<jeffsch> cuts the download in half
<mdke> done
<mdke> thanks for pointing that out
<mdke> jeffsch, there is a lot of good stuff in there
<jeffsch> yeah, there is.
<jeffsch> how much work you think it would take to make it suitable for ubuntu (before integrating the stuff we already have in the current ug)?
<mdke> i have no idea
<mdke> i'm thinking quite a bit
<mdke> but your method would inspire a better structure for the finished document, our userguide is not well structured right now
<jeffsch> it might be a good learning experience to go through line by line, making sure the menus all point to the right place, and so on
<jeffsch> people would learn the docbook tags
<mdke> it depends really on whether anyone is willing to put the work in
<jeffsch> it would be tedious, that's for sure
<mdke> btw did you ever incorporate the tags from gtaylor into the styleguide?
<jeffsch> not yet
<jeffsch> i gotta run. cya
<mdke> bye mate
* jsgotangco wonders what's with the huge update on svn this weekend
<jsgotangco> hmm its all kde
<jsgotangco> the beginnings of a vendor drop...
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<mdke> good weekend?
<jsgotangco> aye we just arrived last night
<jsgotangco> so i wasn't able to check out the happenings over in ubuntu land
<jsgotangco> seems the natives have been quiet lately
<mdke> arrived where?
<jsgotangco> oh we went home to my folks' old farm we haven't been going there lately
<mdke> nice
<mdke> how does one do an xinclude?
<mdke> to include part of another document
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> maybe it isn't possible with another document that isn't in our repo lol
<jsgotangco> i think you have to declare it first in the DTD
<mdke> i wanted to include the update-manager in the userguide
<jsgotangco> ahhh you've been busy
<jsgotangco> BTW
<jsgotangco> how was edubuntu
<jsgotangco> (i almost forgot about it)
<mdke> it was really cool
<mdke> i met some cool people
<mdke> and learnt some interesting things
<jsgotangco> who was there?
<mdke> mdz, mark, henrik, ogra from ubuntu
<mdke> colin applegate and paul flint
<jsgotangco> ah so colin was there
<jsgotangco> (don't know paul flint)
<mdke> he's an incredibly loud american
<jsgotangco> aren't they all
<mdke> some people from guadalinex, skolelinux and some uk folk in education
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<mdke> heh colin was the opposite
<jsgotangco> guadalinex..hrmmm...
<jsgotangco> let me guess
<mdke> it is an incredible project
<jsgotangco> javier carranza?
<mdke> they have 200,000 installs on school computers
<mdke> that wasn't the guy i think
<jsgotangco> did you get to talk to mdz
<mdke> a little
<jsgotangco> ahh
<mdke> i was really blown away by him
<mdke> and mark too
<jsgotangco> is ogra leading the project
<mdke> i believe so
<mdke> he was also real nice
<mdke> ah also Jane was there
<jsgotangco> JaneW!
<jsgotangco> err so what happened?
<mdke> i only went on the first day
<mdke> it was a lot of brainstorming and people talking about their experiences with school based projects
<mdke> pretty interesting
<mdke> you'll find stuff on the wiki, i believe Jane was putting it up as she took notes
<jsgotangco> hmm ok
<jsgotangco> did elkner come?
<mdke> nope he didn't make it
<jsgotangco> oh too bad he's a really niceguy
<mdke> anyway i was really impressed by the Ubuntu guys
<mdke> they are very smart and also friendly
<mdke> the actual conference was a little disorganised but in general it was probably quite useful to all concerned, at least on day 1
<jsgotangco> oh edubuntu was incredibly specific
<jsgotangco> we were a riot in sydney
<jsgotangco> im getting lost in our svn
<jsgotangco> hrrmm
<mdke> whereabouts?
<mdke> or i forgot
<mdke> jordi was there
<mdke> i think that is everyone
<jsgotangco> jordi!
<jsgotangco> well i haven't been doing any useful svn stuff lately
<jsgotangco> that's why i guess i am lost
<jsgotangco> i have been looking into scrollkeeper
<mdke> oh awesome
<mdke> how is it going?
<jsgotangco> oh its like a jungle out there
<jsgotangco> its basically similar to comparing two tables
<jsgotangco> except the other table is incredibly overflowing with stuff
<mdke> btw I emailed the -devel and -users lists reporting on the meeting, just to try and keep the ubuntu world up to date on our group
<mdke> hopefully we can attract more contributors
<jsgotangco> i should have done that before, but that thanks
<mdke> np
<jsgotangco> hmmm great hoary doesn't detect my old hp printer
<jsgotangco> i guess it doesnt like usb printers yet
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> its strange everytime you send to the list, it requires authorization
<mdke> me?
<mdke> that is because I am thick and keep sending from the wrong address
<mdke> i keep cancelling the posts though as soon as I realise
<mdke> so you shouldn't have to moderate them
<jsgotangco> yeah well it still informs me anyway
<mdke> it won't happen again, i've subscribed both addresses now
<mdke> oh
<mdke> i don't set that for ubuntu-it
<mdke> hey we've made no 1 on distrowatch for last 12 months now too
<mdke> awesome
<jsgotangco> not bad for a distro that is yet to reach 1 year old
<mdke> quite
<mdke> ok bed time
<mdke> 4 am
<jsgotangco> hmmm an underwater volcano is erupting near iwo jima
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> must be Godzilla
<Trace> Hello, I am very intrested in hardware detection of Ubuntu, can someone tell me where i can find such doc?
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> froud, hi
<froud> waz up jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> nothing much, sorry i'm not doing that much svn work lately, i'm currently lost at it, but i'm doing stuff on scrollkeeper
<froud> scrollkeeper, why?
<jsgotangco> i'm digging at the stuff not being used at all or disorganized
<froud> ok whatever tickles your fancy
<froud> have you seen the new kde system settings
<froud> replaces kcontrol in kubuntu
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> im totally lost at it
<jsgotangco> atm
<froud> http://lnix.net/~froud/kquickguide/C/ch03s07.html
<froud> why lost?
<jsgotangco> what KDE is this?
<jsgotangco> KDE 3.5?
<froud> Kubuntu Breezy
<froud> KControl is dropped for kde-systemsettings
<froud> it is not part of standard kde
<jsgotangco> hmm probably because i haven't been using kubuntu lately, reason why i am lost
<froud> no I had to compile it and install it, Kubuntu breezy is not ready yet.
<froud> Riddell did a good job with it, I think
<jsgotangco> hmmm isn't it too early to do the compiling thing and breezy-fying the doc
<froud> yes and no. Things like this need to start early or we will not have enough time later
<jsgotangco> as much as i'd like to do more stuff (which i believe im capable of), im so limited with hardware atm
<froud> I use removable hard drives on some of the lab machines
<froud> well school run c u laters
<jsgotangco> welcome back
<froud> yep
<froud> canged hosts
<froud> changed
<jsgotangco> ahh i thought you were in a school run
<froud> yes it was
<froud> then I leave my laptop and the louge and move to my home office
<jsgotangco> thats nice
<mdke> _froud_, thanks for the email
<mdke> which of the two solutions would you consider to be more desirable?
<mdke> sounds like vendor drop is probably more satisfactory
<_froud_> vendor drop in vendpr/gnome/
<froud> vendor/gnome/
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> froud, what did you do with njal's patch? i had already applied it yesterday
<mdke> did he send another?
<froud> Hmm yes there was another
<froud> I applied it
<mdke> it's all deletes
<froud> no
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2005-July/000882.html
<froud> --- userguide.xml(revision 1341)
<froud> +++ userguide.xml(working copy)
<froud> @@ -1980,6 +1980,15 @@
<froud>               directorys (see above), folder newfolder should be
<froud>               in the list.</para>
<froud>           </listitem>
<froud> +
<froud> +  <listitem>
<froud> +  <para>Change Directorys: - cd (/directory/location)</para>
<froud> +  <para>This is a simple enough command cd (Change Directory) typing cd on it's own will take you to your home (/home/yourusername) directory, sometimes known as ~. To get to the new folder you created type cd ~/newfolder (remember that ~ is a shortcut, nothing wrong with shortcuts).</para>
<froud> +  </listitem>
<froud> +  <listitem>
<froud> +  <para>Remove Directorys: - rm -rf (directoryname)</para>
<mdke> no need to do massive paste's like that!
<froud> +      <para>Again the command is simple, to remove the newfolder type cd ~ (just to get you outside of the directory before you delete it) now type rm -rf newfolder, how do you know it is gone? Simple, type your prefered command for viewing directorys, is newfolder there? It shouldnt be. Congratulations you have used the basic file management functions in the terminal.</para>
<froud> +  </listitem>
<froud>         </itemizedlist>
<froud>         <!-- To here... more work needs done-->
<froud>       </sect1>
<mdke> I'm talking about a totally different revision
<mdke> revision 1347
<mdke> all that section above is deleted now
<mdke> check the link i posted above, it shows the revision
<mdke> i think what has happened is that you applied the patch that i had already applied
<froud> Argh! when you patch send mail to list otherwise we will collide
<mdke> i did
<froud> just role back my version
<mdke> i'm pretty sure
<froud> I did not get message
<mdke> perhaps I sent it accidentally only to njal
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> how does on roll back?
<mdke> on/one
<mdke> froud, still here?
<froud> mdke: read http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/svn-book.html#svn-ch-4
<froud> search for "Undoing Changes"
<froud> bit busy just now
<froud> working on deadlines
<mdke> cool thanks
<mdke> froud, ok I've rolled back
<mdke> sorry about that
<froud> cheer now you know how :-)
<froud> no my fault I should have checked
<mdke> both our faults
<mdke> if you have time later you have to teach me vendor drops
<froud> Ok I won't argue ;-)
<froud> but good if you know about merging and branching
<froud> helps if other learn this stuff
<mdke> yes I've bookmarked that document
<mdke> http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/update-manager/help/C/ <-- froud is that the right one?
<froud> yep
<froud> has last patch from jeffsch 
<mdke> wicked am adding to svn now
<mdke> oh no i'm not
<mdke> vendor is outside trunk?
<froud> yes
<froud> you will find vendor/gnome
<mdke> bugger
<mdke> i only have trunk right now
<froud> checkout vendor relative to your trunk
<froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/vendor vendor
<mdke> from where do i type that?
<mdke> home?
<froud> where is you ubuntu-docs/
<mdke> in home
<froud> so cd ubuntu-docs
<froud> when you ls you should see trunk/
<froud> then do svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/vendor vendor
<mdke> no when I ls I see the contents of trunk
<froud> btw when you bringin the doc dont bring in any .cvs folders
<mdke> i won't
<froud> and use svn import not svn commit
<mdke> ok
<froud> oh dear
<froud> you have trunk in ubuntu-docs
<mdke> yes
<froud> Hmm
<mdke> because that is what it says on the StepbyStepRepositories page
<froud> yes
<mdke> i just followed that
<froud> svn for dummies
<froud> not that you are a dummy
<mdke> fair enough
<mdke> how come vendor isn't in trunk?
<froud> make a new folder for your docs
<froud> then
<mdke> ok done
<froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos {thatfolder}
<froud> that will give you branches/ trunk/ tags/ and vendor/
<froud> its big
<mdke> i bet
<mdke> ok will do that
<froud> but  that is everything to do with the project
<mdke> how come vendor isn't in trunk tho?
<froud> that's the way svn repos's are structured
<froud> you should read more from svn book :-)
<mdke> does it mean that people who don't have vendor checked out can't build html documents that use vendor?
<froud> yes
<mdke> that is a shame
<froud> that is one of the downsides
<mdke> can't we put vendor inside trunk?
<froud> of a v drop
<froud> you can, but
<froud> best keep a v drop in vendor and then if you want copy it to trunk/gnome
<mdke> how come?
<froud> you see you will have to have a checkout of the upstream outside your svn wc
<froud> so you can update that copy and diff changes into the svn wc vendor drop
<mdke> i don't get it :/
<froud> for example I have all kde svn in seperate workspace
<froud> and I have a copy of kde docs in our my copy of ubuntu-doc svn
<froud> I merge changes upstream to the ubuntu copy and commit them
<mdke> yes i see
<mdke> but why can't that be done to trunk/vendor?
<froud> this is why baz is a better system :-)
<froud> You want vendor to remain as printine to upstream as possible
<froud> pristine
<mdke> can't changes be merged to trunk/vendor and committed? that way it still remains identical to upstream
<froud> yes, but trunk is where the whole world hacks
<froud> strange stuff happens in trunk
<mdke> i haven't noticed that ;)
<froud> in trunk you will lose control of the vendor drop
<froud> better keep it out of site and mae people know that they do not change that unless it is gnome (upstream) specific
<froud> and if they do change in vendor/ then that patch must be moved upstream
<mdke> hmm
<froud> so before you patch a vendor you must also merge changes in upstream into the drop
<froud> but now that you have a v drop
<mdke> but it also means that most people don't see the xinclude material when they view the document
<froud> you can XInclude or XPointer to those docs
<froud> yes
<froud> only when they have the vendor/
<mdke> that is really bad :/
<froud> that is why you can then make an svn copy from vendor/gnome to trunk/gnome/upstream
<mdke> froud, don't the xinclude and xpointer links have to be changed then?
<froud> that way they will not need vendor/ and you can maintain the pristine quality of the vendor/
<froud> yes instead of refing the ../../../../vendor/
<froud> they refer to the copy in trunk/gnome/upstream/
<froud> When I start using the kde drop I will make a copy of the kde v drop in trunk/kde/upstream
<froud> I dont want people hacking the vendor/
<mdke> and the links you make in the documents will be to trunk/kde/upstream?
<mdke> or to vendor?
<froud> the trunk
<mdke> ok i see, that has reassured me
<froud> Also I want canges in the trunk/kde/upstream to be selectively merged into /vendor/kde/
<froud> then and only then will I patch and move the changes upstream
<mdke> yes i see that
<froud> capish
<mdke> si
<mdke> thanks froud 
<mdke> now to check out repos
<froud> so you must hold a string hand on what people do to your trunk/copy of the upstream
<froud> s/string/strong
<froud> remember no ubuntu stuff in there
<froud> if  they do, shoot them
<mdke> yes
<froud> only upstream specific stuff
<mdke> but if they do stuff, it is not hard to delete it and revert back to the upstream from vendor/
<froud> and remember that at gnome you must talk to the maintainer
<froud> correct
<mdke> talk to the maintainer?
<mdke> y?
<froud> but you dont want to be working at reverting their changes
<mdke> true
<froud> yes maintainer for update manager is me
<froud> so go for it
<mdke> but why is it necessary to talk to the maintainer?
<froud> but for gug you cant just make changes
<froud> gnome policy
<froud> no changes without mainter
<froud> kde is diff, everyone can change a kde doc
<mdke> changes to upstream you mean?
<mdke> or changes in our docs?
<froud> but in gnome, you speak to the maintainer, upstream
<mdke> i don't intend to make any changes upstream, for a start I don't have access to their cvs
<froud> speaking to the gnome doc mainter is good idea. if they say yes, then you know that the patch will be accepted. if they say no, not a good idea, then you wont waste time working on a patch that wont be acepted
<mdke> oh if we do patches, naturally I will speak to them
<mdke> but right now it is just a question of using them
<froud> I have access, but must first speak to mainaters
<froud> rules, geeze they suck
<froud> now if mainters dont respond
<froud> just contact gnome-docs mailing list
<mdke> yes but as I say, i don't intend to do patches right now
<froud> if no response, I will patch as silence will be considered consent :-)
<froud> sure, just so you know
<mdke> yep
<froud> the silence is consent thing
<mdke> that is the worst concept ever
<froud> you will find it it the only way to move forward in some cases
<froud> well it works in FOSS
<mdke> not for me
<froud> well then you will find progress slow going :-)
<froud> see what I have done in 1 week with kubuntu
<froud> I speak to our list and if people have no comment I go for it
<froud> I give enough time for the timezones to read and respond
<froud> if no response, proceed
<froud> otherwise you will get stuck
* mdke doesn't respond
<froud> know it does not sound nice, but sometimes it must be the way
<froud> if you want to make progress you must do
<mdke> well everyone works differently
<froud> if people don't contribute comments you must just do
<mdke> it depends what it is
<froud> you will get much more done that way
<mdke> you know my views on this
<froud> well it's up to you :-)
<froud> yes
<mdke> ok thanks for your help with the repos
<froud> but as you can see, the progress I make is substantial
<mdke> enough of this please
<froud> Oh no
* froud goes back to dealines
<mpt> mdke: ping
<mdke> hi mpt 
<mpt> I'd like to actually start doing some writing
<mdke> cool
<mpt> of Ubuntu Help
<mdke> anything in mind?
<mdke> aha
<mpt> I've chatted with shaunm of gnome-docs fame
<mpt> so yelp will default to opening a particular book
<mpt> rather than defaulting to a hierarchy of software
<mpt> for vanilla Gnome, that will be the Gnome User Guide
<mpt> Does the GUG have any relationship to any of the docs listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects ?
<mdke> the gnome user guide was last updated about a year ago
<mpt> sure, so a lot of changes will need to go upstream as well
<mdke> you will find a copy of it in teamstuff/
<mpt> I'm under no illusions about the amount of stuff that will need rewriting, no matter what the starting point is
<mdke> mpt, perhaps you can contribute to the thread on the mailing list about it?
<mdke> as far as yelp opening a particular book, IMO that decision should be one that the team should take together
<mdke> we have been thinking about how to use the gnome user guide, if at all. there is a thread on the mailing list and jeffsch has some ideas about it too
<mpt> ok
<mdke> that's why I put it in our repo so we can look at it and talk about it
<mpt> ah, that's why it's not in my local tree
<mpt> which I last updated, um, a month or so ago :-)
<mdke> i put it in yesterday
<mpt> ok, so if maybe 80~90% of my changes would be suitable for upstream
<mpt> who would be in charge of merging such changes into the Ubuntu version?
<mpt> anyone who put their hand up?
<mdke> well it will come into Ubuntu in the normal way, through debian I suppose
<mpt> As for the decision, I think it's being made upstream
<mdke> if we decide to use the GUG in our docs, then it will depend on how we do it
<mdke> well the decision on what yelp displays is one that is taken at a distro level is it not?
<mdke> especially if our documentation is going to be in a different format (html), yelp will have to be instructed accordingly
<jdub> mdke: dude ->
<jdub> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/gnome/gnome-user-docs
<jdub> gnome2-user-docs package will be done by seb for ubuntu, most likely
<mdke> jdub, what is that link?
<jdub> mdke: cvs commits for the user guide
<mdke> jdub, is it different to http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C/ ?
<jdub> why ask me when you could read the page?
<mdke> jdub, it looks different to me, so that's why I asked
<jdub> you're looking at a different directory of the same cvs module
<mdke> okay
<mdke> jdub, but I assume your reason for posting me the link was to show that the userguide is not out of date?
<jdub> mostly that it has been touched more recently than a year
<jdub> 3 months is a particularly telling period, too
* mpt subscribes to YAML, gnome-doc-list
<mdke> jdub, yes, the changelog shows that a couple of minor changes have been made since a year ago, but essentially what has happened is that the document is a 2.6 guide, with a 2.10 label
<mdke> ask seb what he thinks of it
<mdke> it refers to applications:// and menu editing via right click
<mdke> but I agree, that page shows a lot more edits than appear in the changelog that I'd previously looked at
<jdub> (check the diffs, they're not that minor_
<mdke> am looking now
<jdub> (the final one is the only one not in ubuntu)
<jdub> anyway, it's definitely less than a year, and on par with release dates
<mdke> ok whatever, if you're happy with it, then that is fine by me
<mdke> if its being actively developed, then I will file bugs for the stuff that I consider to be out of date
<mpt> arg, it's GFDL
<jdub> mdke: it's not without flaws, but it has had recent attention
<mdke> okay well the thread on the mailing list is there if you guys have ideas about how we should use the GUG
<mdke> mpt, it may be that your idea is similar to jeffsch 's
* mpt wonders how that thread ended up in his Trash unread
<mpt> mdke, I don't see any messages from jeffsch in that thread
<mdke> mpt, no he hasn't sent any
<mdke> he expressed his idea yesterday in irc
<froud> mdke: jeffsch wants to for the code
<mdke> erm
<mdke> pardon?
<froud> jeffsch: wanted to for GDP code for the gug
<mdke> to for?
<froud> but if jdub has an ubuntu version of gug then better to use that
* mdke rubs his eyes
<mdke> ubuntu version?
<froud> jeffsch: idea was to take the gug and rework it to uug
<mdke> yes...
<mdke> i was here
<mdke> ah you mean fork
<mdke> gotcha
<froud> is that new version ubuntu specific?
<mdke> that is not a new version
<froud> ak more recent version
<mdke> no its the same version
<froud> is it gnome or ubuntu
<froud> hmm we're not understanding each other
<mdke> froud, what on earth are you talking about?
<mdke> damn
<mdke> i mucked up the vendor drop
* mdke tries again
<froud> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/gnome/gnome-user-docs
<froud> is this a more recent version of the gnome doc?
<mdke> no
<mdke> it is cvs stats
<mdke> click on it and you'll see
<froud> yes, but  the patches show a more recent version that what you see in cvs
<mdke> i asked jdub and he said it was the same
<froud> OK
<froud> I see
<froud> well so longas you can maintain the v drop
<froud> you will be ok
<froud> and I would not count on the gdp being dead
<mdke> i'm not doing a v drop of that, i'm doing one of update-manager
<froud> it's been through this type of dead patch before
* mpt reads http://developer.gnome.org/tools/cvs.html and cries
<froud> OK but you put it in teamstuff
<froud> not good
<froud> the gug
<mpt> How do I set an environment variable?
<mpt> I used to know that sort of thing, eight years ago
<froud> should not be in teamstuff
<froud> set
<froud> set constant=string
<froud> ?
<mdke> the GUG is in teamstuff so that people can read it and look at it
<mdke> it SHOULD be there
<froud> ouch
<froud> is that a good idea they can read it upstream
<mdke> its not there for use or dropping, it is just for jeffsch and others to play aroudn
<mpt> froud: Yes, but I forget where the $ is supposed to go, and what file I put that command in if I want it to be set whenever I log in
<froud> better to vendor it or jeffsch can make a branch
<froud> mpt: what you doing you want to export to your path
<mpt> setting the CVSROOT variable
<mdke>  export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome
<mpt> brilliant, thanks
* mpt installs cvs
<mdke> but the gnome2-user-guide cvs checkout is in teamstuff/ on our repository if you want to look at it
<mpt> I don't want to look at it, I want to make a trial patch to see how easy the process is
<mdke> okay
<mpt> hmm, cvs login tells me I entered the wrong password
<mpt> even though I'm anonymous
<mdke> what command did you use?
<froud> mdke: much better :-) r1351 - in vendor/gnome/update-manager
<mpt> mdke: cvs login
<mdke> froud, second time lucky ;)
<froud> now if the gug could be the same it would be nice
<mdke> froud, we haven't decided whether to vendor drop that or not yet
<mdke> mpt, cvs -z3 co gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C should be enough
<mpt> aha, now it's working
<mpt> yes, the instructions were badly written
<mpt> suggesting that login was necessary even if you were anonymous
<mdke> mpt, you were using the GDP guide?
<mpt> I didn't know there was one
<mpt> I'm using http://developer.gnome.org/tools/cvs.html
<mdke> mpt, you're using the right one
<mdke> froud, my svn up isn't working now i did that import
<mdke> ok fixed it
<mpt> nooooo, I don't want the Gnome User Guide for Gnome 1.4 in Spanish
<froud> mdke: hmm
<froud> works here
<mdke> mpt, you're checking out the whole tree?
<mdke> hardcore ;)
<mdke> mpt, cvs -z3 co gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C 
<froud> mdke: you must now delete the folder and then do svn up
<mdke> froud, yeah that's what I did :)
<froud> remembe ryou use dimport
<mdke> its working now
<froud> ok cool
<mpt> mdke: Yes, I wasn't following your instructions closely enough
<froud> right now I have it too :-)
<mdke> mpt, otherwise you get all the screenshots for each language ;)
<mpt> help shouldn't have screenshots in it anyway
<mpt> but yeah, I have just the C-ish version now
<froud> mdke: see trunk/kde for example if vendor drp copy
<froud> trunk/kde/upstream/kde
<froud> svn up
<mdke> cool!
<mdke> nice one
<jdub> mpt: (the guide-like documents and help infrastructure as they currently stand benefit from including screenshots; when we get to context/topic oriented help, i'll totally agree.)
<froud> if you can follow the same convention, then it will be easy for users to follow
<froud> jdub: yes agreed, books have screenshots help does not :-)
<mdke> convention?
<froud> unless absolutely needed
<mdke> can i just svn cp to trunk/gnome/upstream/gnome?
<froud> bingo
<jdub> froud: that's not the most useful way of describing it at the moment.
<froud> I suggest making the extra gnome folder since you may have other upstreams
<mdke> ok
<froud> jdub: ok
<froud> jdub: however you want to describe it
<froud> jdub: but as general convention making limited use of screeshots in help is good practice
<froud> jdub: for manuals it is different
<jdub> my comment answers that (there is no distinction at the moment)
<froud> correct at present there is not
<mdke> froud, ok i just did the svn copy, did i do it right?
<froud> yes
<mdke> yay
<froud> shit I hav eto install XP on a box and I have lost my license keys
<froud> anyone know where I can get a key?
<mdke> erm
<mdke> XP is ebil
<froud> work sometime customers give me requirements to doc on windoze
<mdke> i guess you can ring em up and ask for your licence key 
<froud> and how do they know what key came with the box?
<mdke> i don't know
<froud> shit and I dont have another widoze xp from which to copy it
<mdke> maybe your vendor is the best bet if its an oem
<froud> he he this is africa dude
<froud> http://www.seriall.com/mostpopular.html
<froud> the internet you gotta love it
* mpt wonders how to float an image in DocBook :-)
<froud> only works for xsl:fo and then you need an xslfo processor that supports floats
<froud> xep or xsl formatter will do it
<froud> but not fop
<mpt>     <mediaobject>
<mpt>       <imageobject>
<mpt>         <imagedata fileref="figures/lockscreen_icon.png" format="PNG"/>
<mpt>       </imageobject>
<mpt>     </mediaobject>
<mpt> I've already removed <screenshot> and <textobject> from that, which were silly
<mpt> It's just a little icon, it should be floated to the side
<froud> not really silly
<froud> depends on the case
<mpt> I'm talking about this particular case
<froud> the text object is good
<mpt> For perhaps 10% of illustrations, <textobject> would be useful for blind users etc
<froud> when no image is found the text object value is displayed
<froud> yes
<froud> and for users using lynx
<mpt> But in this case, if the illustration is not available, the best possible replacement is nothing at all
<froud> ok
<mpt> The doc is much more pleasant+sensible without any replacement text than it would be with any replacement text you or I might think of
<froud> is the image inline to the text or in a block
<mpt> It's on a line by itself
<mpt> That's what I'm trying to change
<froud> block then
<mpt> yes
<froud> what are the parents
<mpt> I pasted them all
<mpt> (now that I've removed <screenshot>)
<froud> parents of the mediaobject
<froud> what are they now
<mpt> <sect1>
<mpt> and above that, <chapter>
<froud> mpt: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/FigureFloats.html
<froud> but as I said it only works for xslfo
<froud> perhaps the new stylesheets for html have fixed that
<froud> but last I used our stylesheets it did not
<melodie> mdke: if you remember the burning problem and doc question I came for about one week ago
<melodie> ?
<melodie> I wanted to tell you I solved it :)
<froud> mpt: oh and as far as I know you should have a figure parent
<mpt> I love how yelp crashes on any XML error
<froud> <figure float="right">
<mpt> Draconian error handling at its most extreme :-)
<froud>     		<title></title>
<froud>     		<mediaobject>
<froud>     			<imageobject>
<froud>     				<imagedata fileref="" format=""/>
<froud>     			</imageobject>
<froud> 
<froud>     		</mediaobject>
<froud>     	</figure>
<froud> <informalfigure float="right">
<froud>     		<mediaobject>
<froud>     			<imageobject>
<froud>     				<imagedata fileref="" format=""/>
<froud>     			</imageobject>
<froud> 
<froud>     		</mediaobject>
<froud>     	</informalfigure>
<froud> hope that helps
<froud> mpt but you sure yelp supports the floats
<froud> I see no support for it in the yelp xsls
<mpt> woohoo
<mpt> I definitely did have real XML errors there anyway
<froud> well my version is a bit behond
* mpt wonders at the difference between <menuchoice>, <guimenu>, and <guimenuitem>
* mpt growls at Gaim for swallowing SGML tags
<mpt> informalfigure, eh
<mpt> thanks froud
<froud> mpt: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html
<froud> difference between <menuchoice>, <guimenu>, and <guimenuitem>
<mpt> O.
<mpt> ta
<mpt> ah, <menuchoice> is what inserts the arrows
<mpt> behind every quirky help file explanation is a usability bug
<mpt> For ten points, what is the bug here? "1. Choose Actions Lock Screen.              If that doesnt work, you dont have a screensaver set up. To set up a screensaver, open System Preferences Screensaver, and choose an item from the Mode: menu."
<mpt> mdke: "cvs diff -u -p user-guide.xml" produces zero output. What might I be doing wrong?
<mpt> oh, wait
<mpt> I figured it out
<mpt> I was diffing the wrong file
<mpt> Well, that was fun
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-10
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salut
<jsgotangco> jdub_, ping?
<jsgotangco> brb
<Burgundavia> jdub, jsgotangco is looking for yo
<jsgotangco> (if you're not too busy)
* Burgundavia laughs
* Burgundavia thinks that jsgotangco should be a Canuck
<jsgotangco> oh i have immigration papers being processed actually
<jsgotangco> i wanted to ask jdub if its too much of a task to edit the main page of yelp since i found out how it works last night
<jsgotangco> (if it would be pointless since we always update stuff from upstream, it might bork other links)
<jsgotangco> (the yelp->scrollkeeper relationship that is)
<jsgotangco> editing toc.xml is easy, the hard part is actually getting all the current stuff organized in a logical way
<jdub> jsgotangco: we already did it for hoary
<jdub> jsgotangco: but for breezy, a document will be displayed instead (most likely)
<jsgotangco> oh ok
<jdub> so if that happens, not sure there's much point
<jsgotangco> so i guess i'll just scrap this then
<jdub> but if it doesn't, we'll have to do similar hacks that we did with hoary would be fine
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> my toc.xml atm is very different from the hoary default
<jdub> if they're rad changes, may as well play with them now just in case
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> the mix of html and xml docs made the look so inconsistent
<jsgotangco> but i guess that can't be helped
<jdub> not immediately
<jdub> but plenty of those html docs come from docbook source
<jdub> once we've analysed what we ship, we can start shipping upstream's pure docbook instead
<jsgotangco> jdub, does that mean we can choose what docs will be kept and docs that will be deprecated?
<jsgotangco> (in terms of relevance)
<jdub> we can't already?
<jsgotangco> well i just thought you guys want the whole thing at the moment as is and just organise them...
<jsgotangco> but weeding out stuff not useful will be very much welcome imo
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> hi froud 
<froud> jsgotangco: howzit dude
<froud> coffee, morning news and irc chat :-)
<froud> geeze these dudes in Endinburgh are heavy
<jsgotangco> hrh
<jsgotangco> i've been fine
<jsgotangco> i just came from lunch
<jsgotangco> i've been dabbling with the yelp front page toc.xml
<jsgotangco> learning how it works with scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> it may not be much of use if the frontpage would be a document
<froud> no it will be of use
<jsgotangco> if we still use toc.xml
<froud> just because we ship html does not mean that we will not register with scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> good point
<froud> and knowing how to change the toc is helpful
<jsgotangco> oh changin the toc is incredibly easy
<froud> sure it must be, just no docs to explain it
<jsgotangco> i guess the biggest challenge is how everything gets interwined
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> i noticed that even the doc you made got lost in the links
<jsgotangco> for hwdb
<jsgotangco> although its ubuntu-specific
<jsgotangco> everything is in /usr/share/yelp and sometimes traverse to /usr/share/scrollkeeper for the toc entries
<froud> yes, but I think that hwdb does have a help button
<jsgotangco> and currently the ubuntu-specifc docs are declared as yelp chunks
<froud> jsgotangco: have to found out why scrolkeeper wont support docbook 4.3
<froud> last time we tried it, it worked only with 4.1.2
<jsgotangco> scrollkeeper or yelp itself?
<froud> sk
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> im not so sure of the relation, sk has its own syntax in a way
<jsgotangco> hmm why does RHEL's yelp have an index and ours don't?
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> its an incredibly old version of Yelp
<jsgotangco> (2.2.3)
<jsgotangco> at least it can search through titles (doh)
<mpt> it can?
<mpt> why didn't anyone merge that upstream :-(
<jsgotangco> its an incredibly old version
<jsgotangco> but its strange indeed
<jsgotangco> editing the frontpage isn't really complicated to begin with, i discovered last night
<mpt> now you tell me :-P
<jsgotangco> we'll need it or else we'll end up with the same structure in a few months :P
<mpt> need what?
<jsgotangco> fixing the frontpage of yelp
<mpt> Well, yelp is going to be defaulting to opening a particular "book", rather than the ToC, within a few months
<jsgotangco> yeah, i guess my edits are not needed for now
<jsgotangco> mdke, hi
<mdke> hello jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> whats up
<mdke> not a lot, you?
<jsgotangco> i've been messing around with stuff
<jsgotangco> i was installing RHEL today
<jsgotangco> and just curiously looked at its yelp
<mdke> ...
<jsgotangco> it had search!
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> (it was an old version of yelp)
<mdke> what was the help like?
<jsgotangco> oh it was stock gnome
<jsgotangco> but it had a 4th button called "index" where you can type in whatever you fancy
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> i was actually messing around with the toc.xml page
<jsgotangco> its going to be useful or not for us, i cannot say yet
<jsgotangco> ill just finish my research on this then i'll go back into writing docs for gnome
<mdke> i saw corey's email on the yelp frontpage
<mdke> i've added my thoughts
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> im not so sure if i can attend today's CC meeting; i have a morning appointment later
<mdke> mpt has some ideas about that question too
<mdke> what time is the CC meeting?
<jsgotangco> 22:00 UTC
<jsgotangco> i'll forward you an email
<jsgotangco> its interesting
<jsgotangco> i haven't answered it yet though
<jsgotangco> sent
<mdke> who from?
<jsgotangco> thoreaupeutic
<jsgotangco> (Peter Garrett)
<jsgotangco> i got to talk to this guy during UDU
<mdke> right
<mdke> interesting mail
<jsgotangco> (he's a senior citizen btw)
<mdke> ic
<jsgotangco> i'll reply to him later
<mdke> hmmm
<mdke> the whole point of having forums and a wiki is that they are really easy to contribute to
<jsgotangco> hmmm?
<mdke> but as he says, there is no reason why people can't email us their work and we can go about integrating it
<mdke> its been done before
<jsgotangco> well yeah that's what i am about to say
<jsgotangco> he's probably not subscribed to ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> he's usually just in the chat room
<mdke> well i agree that greater communication is needed between us and ubuntu-users, ubuntu-devel etc
<mdke> that's why I sent round the team meeting thing
<mdke> if people want to contribute, it really is quite easy though IMO
<mdke> just write to the mailing list or /j #ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> well that's how Mentoring Community is supposed to be, but isn't being practised at the moment
<mdke> what do you mean?
<jsgotangco> oh well i'll reply to him later
<mdke> he has a lot of good points though
<jsgotangco> we had a BOF before about Mentoring Community
<jsgotangco> indeed
<jsgotangco> well i'll try to catch up later if i can
<jsgotangco> i gotta go
<mdke> okies
<mdke> bye mate
* mpt wonders what the cvs equivalent of "baz commit" is
<mdke> similar I imagine
<mpt> mdke: not really :-)
<mpt> "baz commit" means commit to your local repository
<mpt> so that, for example, "baz diff" starts again from zero
<mpt> and so, for example, "baz switch" works without dragging the changes you've just made to a different branch where you probably don't want them
<mpt> whereas "cvs commit" means commit to *the* repository
<mpt> which only works if you have "commit access"
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> that is what svn does
<mpt> "that" being which?
<mpt> more similar to cvs, or to baz?
<mdke> commit to repository
<mdke> remote repository
<mdke> so similar to cvs i guess
<mpt> baz was the first RCS I learnt
<mpt> so maybe I'm spoiled
<mdke> i've heard its good
<mpt> I've just made a diff, and sent it to the maintainer, and now I want to start another set of changes
<mpt> without the first changes showing up in the second diff
<mdke> on the userguide?
<mpt> yes
<mdke> cool
<mdke> just get commit access
<mdke> i'm sure it would not be hard
<mpt> "just" :-)
<mdke> especially if he knows you
<mpt> dude, it's my first patch
<mpt> And I've talked to him approximately once
<mdke> if they don't have a lot of contributors, I'm thinking they will be happy for more
<mdke> but thats cool
<mdke> if you work on the second patch and send it to him, as long as he applies them in order there will be no problem right?
<mpt> the second patch will be a superset of the first
<mpt> and the third patch will be a superset of the second
<mpt> and so on
<mdke> yes
<mdke> no problem
<mpt> Well, it is a problem if he likes the second and third but not the first :-)
<mdke> yes that is true
<mdke> but you can correct the relevant sections and make a fourth ;)
<mpt> heh
<mpt> anyway, sleep time
<mgalvin> for <screen></screen>'s the extra new lines get displayed by the browser which can make copy/pasting that content always have extra lines...
<mgalvin> i would like to just make them more inline so that ...
<mgalvin> <screen>
<mgalvin> sudo apt-get install gftp
<mgalvin>                                 </screen>
<mgalvin> would just be <screen>sudo apt-get install gftp</screen>
<froud> <comand></command>
<froud> <command></command>
<froud> but that needs to be in a block element such as 
<froud> <para><command></command></para>
<mgalvin> oh ok, i'll try that, the faq just currently uses <screen></screen> everywhere
<mgalvin> right ok
<mgalvin> since i am and will continue to be making changes to the faq and authoring new content for it (and since i co-authored the ppc version) is it appropriate to add myself as an author?
<froud> sure add yourself as author
<froud> mgalvin: we used screen but you can use command, just that comand will not be shown with a black background
<froud> perhaps you would be better served just doing <screen>some command</screen>
<mgalvin> froud, agreed, i tried using <command>...</command> and that doesn't look very good, i will stick with <screen>...</screen>
<froud> mgalvin: are you using profiles for ppc
<froud> you know you can do
<froud> mgalvin: for example you can use the arch attribute
<froud> <application os="gnome" arch="ppc"
<froud>                     >Terminal</application>
<froud> if something is applicable to gnome+kde i386+ppc
<froud> <application os="gnome,kde" arch="ppc,i386"
<froud> then just pass a new param to the processor with profile.arch
<froud> and profile.os
<mgalvin> cool, i haven't yet, but i will definitly do that
<froud> --stringparam profile.arch "ppc" profile.os "gnome"
<froud> see the faq make target and copy that to a new mae target
<mgalvin> i will do
<mgalvin> thnx
<froud> mgalvin: I am really glad you are loving that document :-)
<mgalvin> froud, I'm glad to be helping out :-)
<froud> yeah thanks, I hope they get your key rolling quickly
<mgalvin> me too
<mgalvin> froud, should i make the faqppc build target build into .../C/ppc
<froud> it has a base.dir param to build/
<froud> you will need to create a new dir in the build tree
<froud> if it's gnome it will be in build/gnome/faqguideppc/C/
<froud> I think
<mgalvin> ok, i'll do that, thnx
<froud> remember the links to ../images/C/ must work
<froud> ../../images/C/ must work
<froud> if you change that path you will not get any images
<froud> saying this we will have to fix the i386 make target
<mgalvin> to faqguidei386? then we will also need faqguideamd64
<froud> yes :-) bingo
<froud> all from the same instance, using different make targets
<froud> beautiful
<mgalvin> ok, well, i am starving, i am gonna grab some food, i will change all those when i get back in like 30min
<mdke> jeffsch, you'd better apply that gnome makefile patch from mgalvin, i wouldn't have a clue
<mgalvin> makefile patches mailed to the list
<mgalvin> um, i see you saw that already :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> this boy needs commit access
<mdke> mgalvin, did you apply?
<mgalvin> mdke, yea, I am waiting on james to set up my account
<mdke> cool
<mdke> has it be a long enough time for us to bug him?
<mgalvin> its been about 4-5 days
<mdke> hmm
<mgalvin> i sent him an email this morning asking if he could set it up when he gets a chance
<mdke> that might be a yes
<mdke> ok cool
<mgalvin> no response yet
<mgalvin> feel free to bug him for me if you want :-)
<mdke> i might
<mdke> he'll probably be at the CC this evenin
<jeffsch> howdy folks
<mdke> hey jeffsch 
<mgalvin> hey jeffsch
<jeffsch> mgalvin: i applied your gnome makefile patch
<mgalvin> i saw, thanks
<jeffsch> what happens if someone wants to build the whole thing?
<mgalvin> i was thinking of making another target for all, i just didin't write it yet
<jeffsch> ah, ok
<mgalvin> er, called faq, which would build all faqs
<jeffsch> :)
<mgalvin> :)
<jeffsch> i'll add your author file too. but you didn't need to send a diff :)
<jeffsch> it's just a file for the authors directory
<mgalvin> oh ok, thanks, i just figured since its in svn i would send the diff (better safe than sorry)
<jeffsch> np
<jeffsch> doh! faq is still a target in "make all"
<jeffsch> mgalvin: how do you want to handle make all?
<jeffsch> include faqi386 etc, in make all target, or what?
<mgalvin> i am making a target called faq which calls faqi386 faqamd64 faqppc
<mgalvin> so all will call faq which will call the others
<mgalvin> its one line...
<mgalvin> faq: faqi386 faqamd64 faqppc
<jeffsch> hmmm... so faq will build three separate files
<mgalvin> which will fix that breakage
<mgalvin> it will build all 3 version of the faqguide
<mgalvin> i added these 3 lines for this if you wanna just add them
<mgalvin> #Status: AVAILABLE
<mgalvin> # FAQ Guide - build for all archs (i386, amd64, ppc)
<mgalvin> faq: faqi386 faqamd64 faqppc
<jeffsch> ok, i'll add em
<mgalvin> and these for kde
<mgalvin> #Status: AVAILABLE
<mgalvin> # K FAQ Guide - build for all archs (i386, amd64, ppc)
<mgalvin> kfaq: kfaqi386 kfaqamd64 kfaqppc
<jeffsch> mdke: have you built any html lately?
<mgalvin> in my file i added those right above the individual targets to keep them together and in order
<jeffsch> mdke: the other day you said something like "that ubuntu wiki draft graphic is cool"
<mgalvin> just so you know
<jeffsch> mdke: your wish is my command
<jeffsch> mgalvin: yep, that's where i put it
<mdke> haha
<mdke> no i haven't but I will
<mdke> i don't think the draft thing is cool, but it is nice to be consistent ;)
<mgalvin> jeffsch, cool :)
<mdke> bbl
<jeffsch> ok mgalvin, i added the faq target to gnome side of things
<jeffsch> groud will do the kde stuff
<jeffsch> s/groud/froud :)
<mgalvin> ok great thanks
<jeffsch> gotta run. bbl
<mgalvin> later
<Njal> lo all
<mgalvin> hi Njal
<Njal> hows all?
<mgalvin> pretty good, been patching the makefiles to allow for building different versions of the faq guide
<Njal> Cool, im not up to speed on it all yet, but i'm sure i'll catch on evertually
<mgalvin> have you worked on any of the docs yet?
<Njal> Yes, the ubuntu-gnome-userguide
<Njal> specifically the command prompt bit
<mgalvin> cool
<Njal> Im off to uni in september so a lot of my time is spent learning C so learning xml on the side takes a bit
<mdke> back
<mgalvin> if i only had commit access :-/
<mdke> yeah
<Burgundavia> ask elmo
<mdke> yes it is worth bugging him
* Burgundavia is reminded that he needs to get his commit access back
<mdke> ooh he's not here
<mdke> scandal
<mgalvin> Burgundavia, i did and so did froud
<mgalvin> and enrico
<mdke> i'll bug him at CC if he comes
<mdke> mgalvin, don't worry, in the meantime we'll apply your patches as fast as we can :D
<mgalvin> :)
<mgalvin> froud, ping
<mdke> he is applying em now
<mgalvin> er, ok, was just going to make sure he uses the second kde makefile patch
<mgalvin> i gotta run for now
<mgalvin> see you guys in a bit
<mgalvin> l8r
<mdke> bye
* Burgundavia watches his ram usage climb, because of a stupid beagle bug
<froud> So dudes
<froud> waz up
<mdke> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050705130920424
<mdke> patents news
<froud> where did matt go'
<mdke> froud, he went away, he wanted to make sure that you used his second patch for the kde makefile, rather than the first
<froud> I did
<froud> I replied to the patches I applied
<mdke> ah col
<mdke> cool
<froud> there is one already applied, but seems nobody replied to it
<mdke> erm
<froud> think we must get the message out that if you apply a patch that you reply-to-all
<mdke> jeff did the gnome one and the authors one, but he replied to them both
<froud> Hmm
<froud> nope no messages to the list
<mdke> i got them
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-July/002819.html
<froud> ok, perhaps someting on the way, it take time for mail to reach africa :-)
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-July/002818.html
<mdke> heh guess so
<froud> yep I see the svn log
<mdke> but it was a while ago
<froud> matt is doing good work
<mdke> those emails are jeff posting to the ubuntu-doc list
<mdke> froud, yeah he is :D
<froud> he has the hang of profiles
<froud> and th emake targets
<froud> its really cool we have three archs and two os's in one file
<mdke> cough
<froud> fickle hearted?
<froud> you non-believer you
<froud> :-)
<mdke> fickle = change of mind, i haven't changed mine yet ;)
<froud> yep oust software patents
<froud> If, down the road, Microsoft does attack GNU/Linux on patent infringement grounds, why isn't all this lobbying and undermining an example that could be used to demonstrate antitrust violation? Ditto on the standards wars.
<froud> very true
<froud> went to see mr and mrs smith today
<froud> dam jolie is hot
<froud> well I am off for now se ya later
<mdke> ok
<mdke> bye
<froud> nite
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-03
<mvirkkil> mdke: Check out http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/ and open http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/A_complete_book?action=show&mimetype=text/book in yelp (Only tested in Yelp 2.14.2)
<jsgotangco> wow!
<jsgotangco> so its a straight export i assume?
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: Yes.
<jsgotangco> nice!
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: :)
<jsgotangco> and its self-contained in one file
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: Yes. The images are loaded from the server by yelp.
<jsgotangco> ahh yes..i didnt look at the exported code..
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: I've also created a buildbook action, which collects the images and puts them in a zip along with the docbook.
<jsgotangco> that is awesome
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: but it doesn't rewrite the urls in the docbook, that is left to the user. Instead it writes a list or map between  url and filename in to a file. 
<jsgotangco> yeah it shouldn't be hard to change the urls though...if not tedious if we're talking hundreds of images/files, etc.
<mvirkkil> I'm thinking about how to do the rewriting of the urls cleanly inside moin, so I haven't documented or given examples of how to use BuildBook yet.
<mvirkkil> But it's basically appending the url with "?action=BuildBook"
* mvirkkil realizes he hasn't tested it enough
<mvirkkil> But basically this should work: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/A_complete_book?action=BuildBook
<mvirkkil> The mapping file is in resources/url2file-mapping.txt
* jsgotangco opens
<LaserJock> wow, that rocks hard core
<mvirkkil> LaserJock: :D
<jsgotangco> yeah
<tonyyarusso> I'm not sure I've ever seen people so excited about a text file... ;)
<jsgotangco> tonyyarusso: you must be aware of the issue to get excited about it
<jsgotangco> :)
<tonyyarusso> Yeah, and it whooshed by me, so not so much.
<LaserJock> even single wiki page -> docbook is pretty sweet, but a whole book is awesome
<jsgotangco> the single xml file is already solid but the whole book is icing...
<mvirkkil> btw, to make use of admonitions, people will need to start using the Admonition-macro I wrote.
<jsgotangco> now if we could have people write proper wiki pages now...
* crimsun writes a quick how-to for writing proper wiki pages :p
<tonyyarusso> Isn't there one already somewhere?
<LaserJock> WikiGuide, yes
<mvirkkil> There's at least one on the ubuntu wiki, and another one on the fedora wiki.
<crimsun> doesn't really matter, that was facetiousness. Matthew seems inclined to frown on how-tos.
<mvirkkil> but my work should outdate a lot of the points in the guide like "FootNote doesn't work" and "Include doesn't work" ;) 
<LaserJock> so just don't call it a HowTo ;-)
<crimsun> yeah, call it a Guide.
<LaserJock> hehe, but don't let mpt know ;-)
<jsgotangco> haha
<nixternal> then call it a Tutorial...but don't let....know ;)
<LaserJock> yeah, in fact don't *call* it anything, it should just "be" ;-)
<nixternal> or..just call it the WikiToDocbookHowToTutorialGuide
<nixternal> that way there you aren't prejudice to just one person
<Burgundavia> well hey everybody
* Burgundavia is tired but at home
<crimsun> hi
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: hi
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia!
<Burgundavia> hey LaserJock!
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: welcome back
<Burgundavia> New Orleans is mad, crazy mad, but fun
<Burgundavia> I am glad I don't live in the US
<jsgotangco> lol
<OHPhoneGuy> The US isn't that bad....it's just the leadership and his fanclub :)
<jsgotangco> i agree
<LaserJock> I was thinking "man, I'm glad I live in the US" when I got home from Paris ;-)
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> you just got culture shocked after being away from the mainland for a week
<LaserJock> heh
<jsgotangco> you'll probably take the next flight home if you went to asia
<LaserJock> I get that when I go east of the Rockies too :-)
<crimsun> silly left coasters.
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> I love the West, it'd be really hard to get me to move out of it
<LaserJock> I like the Midwest too from what little I've seen of it
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: im bound to chicago in october, how long would a flight be to reno from o'hare?
<Burgundavia> the south is a very different place than the west
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: couple of hours
<jsgotangco> 2?3?4?
<LaserJock> I'd guess 3
<crimsun> Burgundavia: the south is fairly segmented, too
<crimsun> (south vs. southeast vs. florida)
<Burgundavia> tell me about it
<Burgundavia> I will be posting my disaster tour pictures at some point
<Burgundavia> how was UDS?
<LaserJock> fun, really busy (to me anyway)
<Burgundavia> they tend to be
<Burgundavia> Mataro was a little more relaxed, but it was a hackathon as wel
<Burgundavia> l
<LaserJock> yeah, I've never been to any other linuxy conference/summit so I can't really compare it to anything
<LaserJock> It was really cool to meet people though
<Burgundavia> I wish I could have made it and GUADEC
<Burgundavia> I will not miss next year
<LaserJock> heh, I just realized yesterday that GUADEC was a Gnome conf.
<jsgotangco> me too
<jsgotangco> i planned going to germany, but work went to the way
<jsgotangco> i had the chance to go to this year, but then, i didn't prepare for it
<crimsun> I'd love to not have administrivia block all FLOSS travel plans.
* jsgotangco intends to go to LCA on january
<LaserJock> crimsun: yeah, that really sucks dude
<LaserJock> crimsun: would it be easier if it was in the US?
<mpt> nixternal, try WikiToDocbookHowToTutorialGuideEnablingYouToGenerateUserDocumentationDeliverables
<mpt> just to get all the buzzwords in there :-)
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> mpt: nice
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: never going to happen in the US
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: blame the Dept. of Homeland Insecurity and Bush
<crimsun> LaserJock: yes
<crimsun> LaserJock: I'm only required to apply for foreign travel
<mpt> Burgundavia, I thought it was more about the DMCA
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I'm not so sure
<Burgundavia> are we talking about conferences?
<LaserJock> yeah
<crimsun> mpt: sweet, that sounds like a TODO ;)
<Burgundavia> then my point stands
<LaserJock> perhaps, but I heard some somewhat encouraging things in Paris
<LaserJock> but mostly Brazil was the hot topic for the next one it seemed
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: you were thinking about Ubucon no?
<LaserJock> pehaps, if it happens
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: i doubt that (bandwidth considering)
<LaserJock> I haven't seen any activity since that first week
<jsgotangco> Brazil has always come up during BoFs but only got to as far as LP sprints considering almost half of LP is brazilian
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> Brazil is not too expensive to get to, either
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: that would be my worry too, especially since Paris seemed pretty bad
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> would you go if its in India?
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> (Chennai for instance)
<LaserJock> hmm, right now I feel like I've had enough international travel
<LaserJock> but I really do want to try it again
<jsgotangco> you should see the other side of the world!
<jsgotangco> and get your bodyclock really get screwed
<LaserJock> heh, I'm still trying to get over my cold
<jsgotangco> but i guess continental america is more than enough for some
<jsgotangco> i know some people who haven't even left their home states heh
<LaserJock> my dad hasn't ever been west of Montana his entire life
<crimsun> let's hope sites can be determined >3 months prior :/
<crimsun> (that's the avg processing time for an application)
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: was that your first time off NA?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I went to mexico for a brief visit when I was a kid
<LaserJock> didn't need a passport or anything
<Burgundavia> oh wow
<LaserJock> never even been to Canada :(
<LaserJock> although I did get close when I went on a little sailing in Puget Sound
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: hopefully i didn't scare you when we got to meet ;)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<LaserJock> scare?
<jsgotangco> or was it the other way around?
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> it was great to meet everybody, although I'm somewhat antisocial ;-)
<LaserJock> Ian is the only one that I'm going to have a harder time talking to after meeting in person :-)
<LaserJock> some of that was due to reading about him more
<jsgotangco> i decided to go back to the hotel with you on the last day because i thought you're already a bit worried on going back and all...
<LaserJock> yeah, I was
<LaserJock> well, I was really trying to get ahold of my wife and I couldn't get through
<LaserJock> and Paris was not exactly the most friendly place to me ;-)
<jsgotangco> yeah it can get scary when you're all alone in a foreign place with no one to call to, or at least know anyone from it
<LaserJock> I'm soooo glad you guys were there
<LaserJock> the Edubuntu/LTSP gang was awesome
<jsgotangco> rodrigo is pretty cool too :)
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> and Jonathon was great, especially when I lost my wallet
<LaserJock> anyway ...
<LaserJock> it's too bad we didn't really have any real doc BOFs
<LaserJock> but with all the specs to go over I don't know that I would have had time
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: so how long were you in New Orleans?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: week and a half
<LaserJock> must have been awefully hot
<LaserJock> I flew in and out of Houston on my way to Paris, even the airport terminals were quite hot and humid
<Burgundavia> is this a dead dbus session bus? "Unhandled Exception: DBus.DBusException: No reply within specified time"
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/06-30-06-movies/cuntfish_01.jpg
<jsgotangco> lol
<Burgundavia> http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=3911 <-- part of this string
<Burgundavia> all are pretty good
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I'm not sure what to do with the Developer's Reference, I did some more digging around
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: It's written in debiandoc SGML
<crimsun> you /love/ debdoc.
<jsgotangco> joy
<LaserJock> and the debian version seems to be updated 1 or 2 times a year
<LaserJock> I'm already behind (using the last 2005 version)
<LaserJock> and it seems debian want to covert to docbook
<LaserJock> so I'm wondering if it really would be better to fork and covert to docbook
<jsgotangco> probably ask ian's opinion
<LaserJock> I don't know how I'm supposed to maintain the doc as a giant patch to Debian that will need to be merged all the time
<jsgotangco> im sure you'll get a good reply =)
<crimsun> I try to avoid deltas
<crimsun> sure, it means you end up tearing your hair out
<crimsun> on the other hand, it forces you to learn a lot rather quickly
<LaserJock> well, see he created debiandoc SGML so I'm a little nervous to be like "let's convert to docbook!"
<jsgotangco> lol
<crimsun> well, do you /want/ to convert to docbook?
<jsgotangco> be brave
<LaserJock> but as upstream seems like they are going to be do it soon ...
<crimsun> if so you want four or five solid technical advantages
<LaserJock> my bigger concern is carrying around this huge delta
<crimsun> that should be the least of your concerns
<LaserJock> I'd really rather fork it and create a seperate package
<crimsun> ...and create more work for yourself?
<crimsun> well, it's your time
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, I'd kinda like to know before I start putting a lot of effort
<jsgotangco> if the delta can be justified why not?
<LaserJock> well, as I see it, it will take more effort to maintain a huge patch on the debian doc than to just fork it
<crimsun> jsgotangco: that's my point. If a fork is being proposed, there have to be solid technical advantages, not just maintenance advantages
<LaserJock> I'm also wondering about translations issues
<crimsun> ok, suppose you fork it and use docbook. How do you propose to keep upstream current of your changes?
* bhuvan is distributing Ubuntu Tshirts. puggy.symonds.net/~bhuvan/ubuntu_tshirt.html
<LaserJock> crimsun: I don't know that upstream should care
<crimsun> LaserJock: why not? You're not necessarily changing upstream wholescale, but you may well have patches
<LaserJock> hmmm
<LaserJock> right now I'd term it a derivative more than a patch
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: did you silk screened it yourself? =)
<jsgotangco> because its on a bunch of newsprints heh
<bhuvan> jsgotango :) nope. it's just during the photo session :) :)
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: you should have worn it and took a picture of yourself hehe
<bhuvan> jsgotangco: i'll do that
<LaserJock> crimsun and jsgotangco: so you guys think its worth it to try to maintain it as a delta?
<jsgotangco> weigh the technical advantages/disadvantagas as crimsun said so
<jsgotangco> make up a list
<jsgotangco> with a brief explanation and show it to ian since you're the guy who approached him about it
<LaserJock> k, I just got a little overwhelmed when I saw that I've got a pretty sizable diff from the lates debian version that I'll need to merge before I've even started
<jsgotangco> im sure if you have data it should be easier for people to chew it and accept your proposal
<jsgotangco> and probably even say "hey, i could even add this to rosetta so.."
<LaserJock> yeah, I'd like to be able to have translations, Debian has french and japanese version in the package
<LaserJock> so any diff will basically through out those translations unless I can get people to translate them for me
<LaserJock> s/through/throw/
<Burgundavia> hey nixternal_
<nixternal_> hey Burgundavia 
<nixternal_> how was the trip?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: if its in rosetta, im sure people will dive in
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if there is a debiandoc2po 
<nixternal_> nothing like laying in bed, watching tv, and doing some wiki work ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal_: you really don't need to email us for every page, but you are doing great work
<nixternal_> np Burgundavia 
<nixternal_> i appreciate the complement
<nixternal_> Burgundavia: what does the travel agenda look like for you in the future?
<Burgundavia> nixternal_: thankfully currently pretty free
<nixternal_> any plans on docteam meetings for edgy documentation?
<Burgundavia> I expect a trip to Colorado in a near future (1-2 months) plus I am thinking of going to Ubucon
<Burgundavia> nixternal_: i would love to have a docteam meeting. Can you chat with mdke and get a good time together, etc?
<Burgundavia> anyway, I am truly exhausted and need to sleep
<Burgundavia> night all
<nixternal_> mdke: ^^ Corey would love to have a meeting. I am open to any times you all choose.
<nixternal_> ;_
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: I'm starting work on docbook->moin by the end of this week.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: I see you've already done the license change, thanks :) 
<mdke> mvirkkil: extremely nice
<mdke> good work!
<mdke> mvirkkil: how does linking/cross referencing work?
<mvirkkil> mdke: It doesn't :/
<mdke> ah
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's tricky to know what would point to something inside the generated document, and where there, since docbook has basically no support for anchors.
<jsgotangco> the results are still nice though!
<mvirkkil> mdke: currently any url is converted to an absolute url.
<jsgotangco> grrr does this list spam ever end
<rob> ?
<mvirkkil> I'm going to focus on other parts from here on. But if you find bugs, please let me know.
<jsgotangco> rob: ubuntu-doc gets around 50+ spam a day catched by the list of course
<mdke> jsgotangco: it's not so bad as -translators
<mdke> mvirkkil: gotcha
<rob> jsgotangco, yeah I bet
<jsgotangco> really hehe
<mdke> mvirkkil: the xml is still really ugly... did you consider tidy?
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's not ugly :) 
<mdke> it is
<mdke> mvirkkil: open it in a text editor
<mvirkkil> mdke: I could consider adding a configuration switch for outputting PrettyPrinted.
<jsgotangco> it is
<mdke> then run "tidy -xml -i filename > newfilename" and compare the two
<mvirkkil> Yeah, I know what you are talking about.
<mvirkkil> "xmllint --format filename" probably does that too.
<mdke> ok
<mvirkkil> mdke: The thing is that it could easily break the validity of the generated document, since pcdata is only allowed inside certain tags.
<mdke> so it does
<mvirkkil> mdke: and the spaces and enters are "text" ==pcdata which isn't allowed everywhere, according to the dtd.
<mdke> it doesn't seem to break it for the A_complete_book file
<mdke> anyway, it would definitely be worth working that out, if it is possible
<mvirkkil> the "ugliness" is just a result of how I serialize the dom, I could just as easily use the PrettyPrint which would result in the output you are looking for.
<mdke> right
<mdke> we definitely need it like that to be able to work with it
<mdke> so it's either you, or us doing it manually afterwards :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ok, I'll make the PrettyPrint default then.
<mdke> great
<mvirkkil> mdke: done
<mdke> mvirkkil: looks the same...
<mvirkkil> mdke: You are hitting the browser cache bug.
<mdke> ah
<mdke> it isn't in the page cache I suppose?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm bugging some senior moin devs about why moin tells the browser it hasn't changed.
<mvirkkil> wget -U "" -O tmp.xml  "http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/A_complete_book?action=show&mimetype=text/book"
<mvirkkil> mdke: --^
<mvirkkil> wget doesn't do fancy cache things ;)
<mvirkkil> mdke: Better?
<mvirkkil> btw, you are right, the page still validates. I wonder why I ever switched away from PrettyPrinting.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> a lot better yeah :)
<mdke> mvirkkil: what are the chances of the docbook stuff being available as a patch for 1.5?
<mvirkkil> mdke: http://hg.thinkmo.de/moin/1.6-docbook-mvirkkil
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm working against 1.6 trunk
<mdke> mvirkkil: yeah, I know.
<mdke> that's why I asked
<mvirkkil> mdke: Hmm.. Then I guess there is no patch against 1.5.
<mdke> mvirkkil: what I meant was, is there any chance that in the future there will be?
<mdke> how difficult would it be, etc
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, there is a good chance a lot of the stuff would work by just dropping them in. I've made one extremely trivial patch to Page.py, other than that, my changes are contained to the files I've created.
<mvirkkil> So dropping in Admonitions-macro, Insert-macro, text_docbook-formatter, text_book-formatter, and BuildBook-action in addition to the trivial patch to Page.py should make everything pretty much work.
<mdke> mvirkkil: when is 1.6 expected to be released?
<mvirkkil> There might be some issues with the FootNote macro, since it might still use illegal formatter calls in 1.5, but I don't know.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Quoting moin-devs "when it's done"
<mdke> and how is it now?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I've bugged them about that issue too.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I think they'll hold out for the SoC work to be completed. 
<mdke> oh, so quite soon then
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, my very non-informed guess would be before christmas.
<mdke> ah
<mdke> well, it might be worth trying to get a patch for 1.5 then, I suspect most projects would be willing to try and get 1.5 working rather than wait until christmas
<mvirkkil> mdke: But I don't know. Stuff like the backend rewrite seems to be quite far from completion, and might take some time to stabilize.
<mvirkkil> mdke: but then again, they might just push 1.6 when the SoC is done with everything thats good then, and wait for 1.7 for the backend stuff.
<mvirkkil> mdke: There is just no way of knowing at this point.
<mdke> right
<mdke> well, I suspect that we will look to upgrade to 1.5 fairly soon
<mvirkkil> mdke: My SoC timetable is quite tight, so I won't be able to look in to creating ports. 
<mdke> ah, ok
<mdke> mvirkkil: well, maybe I will have a go, or I will ask you to help me after you finish the project or something
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ok. You might just want to test dropping the files I mentioned, and patching Page.py (with http://hg.thinkmo.de/moin/1.6-docbook-mvirkkil?cs=26a8f963474c) 
<mvirkkil> mdke: naturally not on a production wiki ;) 
<mdke> sure
<mdke> I'll use my trusty desktop wiki
<Madpilot> mdke, you must have gotten in touch w/ TrevorPounds - I noticed that he's moved his Games work over to huc/c
<mdke> ah, nice.
<mdke> Madpilot: I left a message on the page
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> now we just need to get him to remove some of the duplication he's created - we've now got two Enemy Territory pages, for example
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryDocumentation is down to 11 entries - most of them non-English. I'm sure we're missing bits and pieces, though.
<Madpilot> anyway, need sleep - night all.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ok, using PrettyPrint will cause the rendering of <screen> to break.
<mvirkkil> mdke: In addition, I just synced with trunk, and that seems to have broken something else. I'll need to investigate a bit.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ok, so trunk just changed how spaces are handled in links, which broke my "A complete book" example. Now fixed.
<mvirkkil> mdke: But the prettyprint issue remains.
<mdke> mvirkkil: ah, pesky screen
<mvirkkil> mdke: One could hack around it, by removing any linebreaks and whitespace between <screen> and <!CDATA
<mvirkkil> mdke: or force a linefeed to begin <!CDATA
<mvirkkil> I mean "force a linefeed to be inserted at the beginning of a <!CDATA
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> how is the rendering broken if there is a whitespace after <screen>?
<mdke> we have a lot of those :)
<mvirkkil> Well, you get the whitespace inside the screen. So the first line is indented by the amount of whitespace.
<Luna-Tick> Hi guys
<mdke> mvirkkil: what about linebreaks? same thing?
<mvirkkil> mdke: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/whitespacebug.png
<Luna-Tick> I was working through https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSHHowto (the Public key authentication step) and found that I needed to add an ssh-add between generating the key (ssh-keygen -t dsa) and sending it (ssh-copy-id) in order to get the step-by-step instructions to work.
<mvirkkil> Prettyprint is smart enough not to mess with the contents of a textnode with no children. Unfortunately <screen> has a <!CDATA section as a "child"
<mdke> Luna-Tick: yeah, good point
<Luna-Tick> :)
<mvirkkil> but the <!CDATA that contains the actual text, is a "textnode" so it doesn't get messed up
<mvirkkil> mdke: In that image, each ----- mark should start at the same place horizontally.
<mdke> i c
<mdke> yeah
<Luna-Tick> I don't know anything about it so thought I would tell someone else rather than change it. Shall I report it somewhere else or is it fine leaving it with you? (Sorry - I see you are in the middle of a different convo)
<mdke> Luna-Tick: you can fix it yourself, or I will fix it later on, if you prefer
<mvirkkil> mdke: But this will also hit us with a vengance when we do syntax highlighting, 
<mdke> hmm?
<mvirkkil> mdke: well, since each syntax highlighted bit is an element, but the whitespace between them is _very_ significant.
<mvirkkil> significant == important to preserve.
<mdke> what sort of syntax highlighting are you talking about?
<mdke> mvirkkil: so really this is a bug in whatever program you are using to make the pretty xml code, it should leave screen alone, right?
<Luna-Tick> Thanks mdke - it would be great if you could. Also, you may like to check the name of the authorized_keys file in the doc; it is given as "authorized_keys2" but it seems to be "authorized_keys" on a Dapper box. Keep up the great work, everyone, we all appreciate it!
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, codesnippets are automatically syntax highlighted thanks to moins support for doing so. Docbook supports giving a <programlisting>
<Luna-Tick> ciao
<mdke> mvirkkil: ah, i see
<mvirkkil> mdke: Hmm.. Looking at the trivial example I have, it might work to just strip any linebreaks and whitespace that are around a <!CDATA section.
<mdke> but it's a bug in the program you use for the pretty code, rather than in your thing, right?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yes.
<mdke> what program is that, xmllint?
<mvirkkil> mdke: no, it's the 4dom
<mvirkkil> mdke: no, it's the 4dom's string serializer, which can do prettyprint
<mvirkkil> mdke: But the same problem might exist in xmllint.
<mdke> I don't know. But maybe you can report it and get it fixed by those developers
<mvirkkil> mdke: Hmm.. A quick manual test would indicate that xmllint doesn't have that problem.
<mdke> good news
<mvirkkil> mdke: 3.5years old report of the problem: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/xml-sig/2002-December/008893.html
<mdke> bloody hell
<mvirkkil> :/
<mvirkkil> mdke: The CDATA stuff wasn't in my original version, but were added later. The commit doesn't explicitly mention why they were needed. Maybe I could get away with removing them.. No, wait, I couldn't, since that would make it impossible to handle <programlisting> without special casing it. This way we just need to "special case" CDATA nodes, which is ok imho.
<mvirkkil> or the formatter would need to have proper support for them in the first place...grumble grumble...
<mdke> mvirkkil: I suppose generating it without pretty print and then running xmllint or tidy over it wouldn't be a good option?
<mvirkkil> mdke: On the serverside? It would add a really weird dependency.
<mvirkkil> mdke: On the client side? Yeah, sure. Why not.
<mdke> mvirkkil: I don't know which side :)
<jjesse> just wanted to let people know that i have taken ownership of bug #51865 and will be uploading the change on wednesday when i'm back to work w/ my laptop that has svn on it ;)
<jjesse> meant bug #51685
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 51685 in kubuntu-docs "Wrong spelling of Amarok" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/51685
<newz2000> anyone seen a "getting started with launchpad" doc/tutorial?
<jjesse> maybe on the launchpad wiki? wiki.launchpad.net?
<newz2000> jjesse: that doesn't resolve for me, I think that launchpad just uses the wiki.u.c website
<newz2000> Ah, I think I found it on the wiki.u.c. Thanks for the pointer.
<mdke> hi there newz2000 
<newz2000> hello mdke
<jjesse> newz2000: it was just a guess for me
<mdke> welcome aboard :)
<newz2000> thanks
<newz2000> I just had a surprise this weekend...
<mdke> newz2000: there aren't any officially prepared docs for launchpad except for some titbits on wiki.launchpad.canonical.com
<newz2000> I got a check from a magazine I wrote an article for last fall... I'm a professional writer now!
<newz2000> I'm looking at the blueprint docs now
<mdke> #launchpad will help you out more too
<newz2000> ok, I'll join there
<newz2000> ah, w.l.c.c looks like a great place to start
<mdke> newz2000: how's it going so far?
<newz2000> Its a little new. There's a lot of info. Different tools too.
<mdke> yeah, can immagine
<newz2000> But exciting!
<mdke> :)
<newz2000> are you in north america?
<mdke> no, UK
<newz2000> That's going to take some getting used to. I think I'm in the minority as a western hemisphere person.
<mdke> well... people are everywhere
<mdke> lots of aussies, americans, europeans especially
<newz2000> Yeah. I'll probably hang out here a lot, since I can envision working with doc stuff a lot. I talked to henrik and he mentioned the help.u.c site changes. It looks good.
<mdke> yeah, we have a traditionally close relationship with the webmaster, thanks to henrik
<mdke> be great to have you in here
<mdke> as I was saying to matthewrevell the other day, you can't have too many Matthew's
<matthewrevell> newz2000: You a Matthew too?
<newz2000> :-D how true.
<newz2000> Indeed!
<mdke> that's 4 in here
<matthewrevell> We shall rule Ubuntu.
<matthewrevell> :)
<newz2000> That will get confusing I think.
<newz2000> I can't wait for the "matthew" jokes that come up.
<matthewrevell> Matthubuntu
* mdke pats irc nicknames
<matthewrevell> newz2000: Are there any?
<mdke> morning Burgwork 
<newz2000> New Job opening - qualifications: ... must be named "matthew"
<matthewrevell> Right, I've gotta drive home. Later guys
<mdke> newz2000: I wish
<nixternal> moins everyone
<mvirkkil> nixternal: evening ;)
<Burgwork> hey mdke 
<jenda> Is Daniell Robitaille around?
<jenda> ah, he uses 'robitaille', dunhe. I guess I'll have to wait then.
<Burgwork> jenda, he is robitaille and is usually only here in the evenings, PDT
<Burgwork> about 7-9 hours from now
<jenda> beautiful :) makes it 2-4 o'clock in the morning for me :)
<Burgwork> jenda, what you do you need to talk to him about. I am in the same timezone (in fact, the same city) as him
<jenda> Would you happen to know if meeting logs get included in /MeetingLogs automatically, or is it per-request?
<Burgwork> that is done by him, provided you meet in #ubuntu-meeting
<jenda> We happen to have a fairly productive meeting at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2006-06-28.html
<Burgwork> make certain the timing is on the fridge calendar and it will be done
<jenda> But it hasn't been put up there yet, so I was wondering.
<jenda> the meeting was fridged
<Burgwork> likely he has been busy then
<Burgwork> it is a long weekend in Canada and he may be away on vacation
<jenda> no probs then
<jenda> (11 hrs gone - he seems to be home)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-04
<nixternal> jjesse: Ubuntu Packaging Guide - I have been working with imbrandon on some stuff, and he has been showing me around packaging a little big more...with this, I have noticed their could be some updates made to the guide
<nixternal> how should i present those updates?
<LaserJock> talk to me about it :-)
<nixternal> also, earlier some of the motu's were seen stating that they would like to see maybe 2 version of a packaging guide, 1 for beginners and one for advanced...beginners wouldn't have chroot information, as it might be to much for a beginner, plus something about wanting them to learn
<nixternal> LaserJock: i thought so
<crimsun> make svn diffs, send them to the list
<nixternal> LaserJock: when i have them all noted, i will pass on the information to you then
<crimsun> beginners /must/ have chroot info.
<nixternal> ok crimsun, i will definately listen to you on that type of stuff, as you are a freakin' master of it all!!!!   thanks crimsun
<LaserJock> nixternal: there is a bit of a balance between getting beginners to want to package and not lowering the bar *too* low
<nixternal> i understand
<crimsun> whether that chroot info is an sbuilder or pbuilder is up for discussion, but we definitely do /not/ want beginners polluting their daily environment.
<LaserJock> anyway, if you have suggestions go ahead and throw them on the -docs mailing list
<LaserJock> we're open to suggestions for sure
<nixternal> crimsun, if im not mistaken, doesn't pbuilder build the chroot for them?
<crimsun> else they risk experiencing what we just went through in Debian Sid's alsa-lib, which Ubuntu managed to sidestep because we do source-only uploads.
<crimsun> nixternal: yes
<jsgotangco> :D
<crimsun> nixternal: my point being that some sort of chroot has to be part of the initial phase.
<nixternal> the only thing i didn't run across in the packaging guide, and imbrandon brought it to my attention, is that after building a package with pbuilder, you should do a 'pbuilder clean' 
<jsgotangco> send diffs to list!
<LaserJock> pbuilder clean?
* nixternal signs jsgotangco up for every mailing list in the world!!!
<crimsun> clean is not necessary. The only thing that's saved are the deb packages, which are cached. Everything else is blown away.
<jsgotangco> nixternal: you have no idea
<nixternal> yes LaserJock, as it cleans out the previous chroot, I really am not 100% on that though LaserJock
<LaserJock> it doesn't
<nixternal> oh im sure i do jsgotangco, if i remember correctly you are a bug list sicko
<jsgotangco> :D
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> the point of the pbuilder is that the chroot environment stays clean
<nixternal> LaserJock: so after you build a package with pbuilder, you can go right back and build another package w/o cleaning?
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> excellent LaserJock!!!
<crimsun> now if you use --save-after-login or --save-after-exec, that's a different matter worth footnoting.
<crimsun> I highly doubt that was the context, however.
<LaserJock> pbuilder update will freshen up the chroot, but other then that you really never change the chroot much
<nixternal> i heard LaserJock / crimsun that if you use a chroot, you have to rm -rf /var/chroot and rebuild, is this true?
<crimsun> if you pollute your chroot, yes
<LaserJock> but then you probably want to use pbuilder anyway
<crimsun> that's why pbuilder/sbuild are preferred
<nixternal> ok, that was something i thought should be added to the appendix where the chroot information is for building and using
<LaserJock> hmm
<nixternal> is that a good hmm or a bad one?
<LaserJock> well, I don't think you want to be blowing away your chroot all the time
<LaserJock> you set up a chroot if you want to "work" in a different environment
<nixternal> LaserJock: i have no idea on exactly how the chroot works, as I haven't messed with building packages in at least 8 years
<LaserJock> hehe, np
<nixternal> plus, i was doing rpm stuff back then ;(
<nixternal> i was lovin' the yast back then ;)
<nixternal> so would it make sense to remove the chroot information from the appendix?
<nixternal> or edit it letting the new packagers know that it isn't for the faint of heart, and requires work
<nixternal> hiya mdke
<jsgotangco> honestly, the chroot part is essential IMO if you want to advance further
<jsgotangco> like crimsun said before packaging requires a bit of sophistication on the part of the end user and there are some assumptions involved with the skill level
<nixternal> well if chroot was essential then, shouldn't there be more to it, besides just building the chroot itself...like how to use it, build against it and what not?
<nixternal> or at least links to where people could go for more information
<jsgotangco> sure bear in mind, the packaging guide team was basically LaserJock =)
<nixternal> pg. 57-58 in the appendix is chroot, and it just says here is how you build it and thats it
<jsgotangco> it does have some cruft and loose ends, but for a v1 release, its nice
<jsgotangco> so diffs matter
<nixternal> true
<crimsun> I'm not convinced it has to say more
<nixternal> no, don't get me wrong, i am glad this guide is here, as i am learning greatly from it
<crimsun> We don't want to drown the user 
<jsgotangco> a more comprehensive guide would be debian policy and n-m definitely
<nixternal> i understand crimsun, but someone who is new that reads it, goes "ok, i have a chroot, now what"
<crimsun> and there's a clear indication that there are other resources for familiarising oneself with chroots
<nixternal> at least give them links for more
<jsgotangco> OMG yelp can now render glossterms
<jsgotangco> and footnotes!
<crimsun> well, I suppose one could link to section 8.6.35 in the Debian Reference
<crimsun> [http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tips.en.html] 
<crimsun> nixternal: in any case, thank you very much for the feedback.
<LaserJock> nixternal: that's why I put pbuilder up front and dchroot in the appendix
<LaserJock> pbuilder is a "must" really
<nixternal> np crimsun...i am loving the ease of pbuilder
<nixternal> thats for sure
<LaserJock> and so I tried to make it as clear and easy to get going
<LaserJock> perhaps I should put more use cases in
<nixternal> LaserJock: it is very clear and easy..as i haven't had any problems, except at times i want to hop right in w/o reading or researching first ;)
<nixternal> LaserJock: as i go through it more, i am making notes in my print, and i will share them with you if i feel they might be important for others to know
<LaserJock> well, so far I haven't been able to succed with "hop in where ever you like and it will be crystal clear" :-)
<LaserJock> nixternal: for sure
<nixternal> hehe..there is no hopping in, you have to read through it at least once to understand it, then go through with the execution part
<nixternal> --basetgz is the only thing i could see with maybe a little bit more of an explanation. maybe a quick view as to show how to build for instance, a dapper and an edgy environment
<LaserJock> yeah
<jsgotangco> horay for lp+bzr integration
<LaserJock> heck yeah
<jsgotangco> i created a new product and pushed a branch the latency for publishing is 1 day
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> and its less than 500k file
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: yeah, I haven't been using it to publish yet because of the 1 day latency thing
<LaserJock> I heard it's going to get better soonish though
<jsgotangco> oh i just had to create one out of necessity because of a project
<jsgotangco> client has been bugging me for it
<jsgotangco> its nice to work for a UN project but frankly, its a bit of a mess as well
<LaserJock> what do you do?
<jsgotangco> http://www.iosn.net/
<jsgotangco> mostly docbook work
<LaserJock> oh, how handy ;-)
<jsgotangco> quite tedious
<jsgotangco> im not negotiating for an extension ;)
<LaserJock> hmm, I didn't know the UN did that sort of thing
<jsgotangco> its very specific to the asian region
<jsgotangco> it wont even contract/hire people that are not from the region
<LaserJock> seems kind of odd
<jsgotangco> really?
<LaserJock> you would think people all over the world would need it
<jsgotangco> that's true, but its a growing initiative if its successful in AP, i would think it will expand 
<jsgotangco> depends on the UNDP though
<LaserJock> yeah
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Burgundavia> you just get in from work?
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> no, was at FolkFest
<Burgundavia> ah, cool
<tonyyarusso> Sounds like my family.  "Hey, we're related and all (and even live together), but where the heck were you again?"
<Burgundavia> we don't live together at least
<Burgundavia> that would violate the 3m rule of IRC
<tonyyarusso> That makes it far less silly.
<tonyyarusso> 3m rule?
<Burgundavia> 3 metre rule
<Madpilot> "People within three metres of each other should just talk, not use IRC to communicate"?
<tonyyarusso> ...does that apply to MSN messenging too?
<tonyyarusso> 'cause I'm pretty sure my roommate and I broke it then.
<Burgundavia> hmm, that is excited, I muted myself in #ubuntu-ca
<Madpilot> oops
<Burgundavia> jenda: you wanted to speak with robitaille?
<jsgotangco> hmm i found something weird in docbook or im just not familiar with how books are made
<robitaille> jenda,  I'm here.  And your meeting will be on the Fridge shortly :)
<nixternal> wheee..another meeting !!!
<Burgundavia> why is it the teams that produce the least spend the most amount of time talking about leadership?
* nixternal snickers at that comment
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Well, that actually sort of makes sense.  Once the leadership's in place and you don't need to talk about it anymore, that is when you will be more effective at production.  That being why the leadership was necessary.
<tonyyarusso> Seems logical anyway...
<Burgundavia> but if you look at the successful teams, the leadership has grown organically, without too much concern about who was in charge
<tonyyarusso> True.
<tonyyarusso> Not sure that it's a cause-effect kind of thing, more a correlation.
<tonyyarusso> Those teams that have naturally evolving leadership will also be those that are good at producing content.
<Burgundavia> no idea myself, just a comment
<tonyyarusso> Those that struggle on that front probably struggle elsewhere too.
<Burgundavia> for that matter, I really need to start producing content for the marketing team
<nixternal> Burgundavia is 100% right on that, i know who i need to report stuff to on the doc team...although they got tired of me doing it..and nobody ever told me, hey he is in charge, or he is in charge..actually doc team is nothing but a bunch of fearless leaders now that i look at it
<tonyyarusso> I know I have one thing floating around - just some text though - I'm not a very AV kinda guy.
<nixternal> you have Burg, locopilot, mr.east, the laserdude, jsgotchicago, and a few more as i scan the users list to the right
<Burgundavia> we have all been here for a while and have fallen quite comfortably into things which we do well
<nixternal> exactly
<Burgundavia> makes it easier for us to absorb new people
<bimberi_> i wonder if it's related to how visible and asessable a teams deliverables are
<Madpilot> DocTeam is much more 'organic' than, say, ArtTeam - in other words, we don't have sabdfl riding us right now :)
<Burgundavia> art team is pretty clear
<mdke_> morning
<Madpilot> morning mdke_ 
<nixternal> Madpilot: right now, no, but i think soon!
<Burgundavia> morning mdke_
<nixternal> morning mdke_
<nixternal> mr.east himself
<jenda> robitaille: ah thanks ;)
<jenda> robitaille: Actually I wanted to ask about MeetingLogs on the wiki - do you do that, and does one have to do something in particular to get a log up there?
<jenda> (Once the meeting has been scheduled and posted on the fridge etc.)
<mvirkkil> mdke_: morning
<mvirkkil> mdke_: I see you've been testing out the wiki :) 
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: So I have a Q? about the "Official Ubuntu Book" - how does it differ from system documentation like the Ubuntu Desktop Guide?  (In other words, what might make it worth twenty-odd bucks to me?)
<mdke_> mvirkkil: sort of.
<robitaille> jenda,  I'm usually the one that do those manually when I have time.    But you are free to add your logs (or any meeting logs) to the wiki.
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: it was written by me?
<jenda> robitaille: OK, I'll look into it.
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: in all seriousness, it does cover a great deal more than the desktop guide
<jenda> thx
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: What sorts of things?  What's the target audience?  Does it have screenshots unlike the others?
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: lots more hard stuff plus soft stuff like what is Ubuntu, etc.
<mdke_> I'd say the target audience is more for those new to Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> target audience is a new Ubuntu users, either someone who came from another Linux distro or Windows
<mdke> although, I haven't seen a copy yet *growl*
<Burgundavia> I have seen printers proofs
<mdke> oh, it isn't out yet?
<mdke> no wonder
<tonyyarusso> I'm not sure I need it, but am half considering getting it to lend to friends if I can convince any of them to try Ubuntu.
<Burgundavia> for that it is quite good
<mdke> man the marketing team does a lot of talking
<Burgundavia> I am probably going to get my hands on a bunch of copies and get it into the local library
* mdke struggles to catch up with the emails
<tonyyarusso> Do we have a full table of contents available somewhere?  book-toc.html in Examples looks like just the three sample chapters.
<bimberi_> i'll (hopefully) be getting a free copy :)
* bimberi_ submitted a recipe
<tonyyarusso> bimberi_: For?
<bimberi> tonyyarusso: what to do if you forget your password
<tonyyarusso> bimberi: ...cry?  No, I assume it involves recovery mode or some such thing.
<tonyyarusso> And then buy some Post-Its.
<bimberi> tonyyarusso: you got it - recovery mode
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to crash, need to work tomorrow
<mdke> grrr work
<tonyyarusso> bimberi: Shoulda thrown step two in there too.  (My dad's a 3Mer)
<bimberi> hehe
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Do you know where I can get a ful TOC?
<tonyyarusso> *full
<mdke> tonyyarusso: I've got a very old one from when I was reviewing it, I'll mail it if it can be of use. I believe it changed after that though
<bimberi> tonyyarusso: it's on amazon - not sure if there's a TOC though
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Well, better than nothing I guess, sure.
<tonyyarusso> Speaking of Amazon..the DVDs for $10 are tempting too...
<tonyyarusso> mdke: (You can /info me I believe)
<mdke> hmm?
<tonyyarusso> Oh wait, nm.  Not on Freenode :P
<tonyyarusso> Hey, another idea for the birthday wishlist - gotta start building that now.
<nixternal_> g'nite all
<Madpilot> night
<Plug_>  /sb end
<Plug_> (oops, hello :)
<mdke> hello
<matthewrevell> howd
<matthewrevell> y
<matthewrevell> d'h
* matthewrevell is missing some fingers, it would seem
<blaq> hey quick suggestion. In the website doc section http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch04s02.html can someone add something about running the dvd script needing the package 'dpkg-dev' installed?
<blaq> took me ages to figure that out because the script couldn't find dpkg-source
<blaq> and searching for dpkg-source didn't reveal anything
<mdke> blaq: it doesn't need that package
<blaq> it needs deb-source
<blaq> erm
<blaq> dpkg-source
<blaq> and as i just found out, debhelper
<blaq> both of which weren't installed by default on my system
<blaq> and which i only was able to figure out through looking through shell scripts
<mdke> blaq: i understand what you're saying. But it doesn't.
<mdke> I just ran it fine without those packages
<mdke> the script simply downloads a package and installs it, no more, no less
<blaq> well it needs dpkg-source from somewhere else then
<blaq> im running a fresh install
<mdke> so you need an internet connection, wget, and dpkg
<blaq> wget looks like it's installed on default install
<blaq> dpkg obviously is
<blaq> but the dpkg-source executable doesn't seem to be
<mdke> are you running edgy?
<blaq> nor the debhelper package
<blaq> i dont know what edgy is
<mdke> what version of Ubuntu do you have?
<blaq> dapper
<blaq> dapper kubuntu actually
<mdke> right
<mdke> well, sorry but you must have some other problem, that script works fine without those packages, as far as I can see
<blaq> eh well thats just what i've found, thought it might help some newbies with the same problem
<blaq> cheers!
<mdke> ah, I see
<mdke> damn, he left
<Madpilot> just created CategorySecurity on help.u.c/c - seemed like a logical category to have. We should discuss other Cats to add at some point...
<Madpilot> need sleep now, though - later, all
<nixternal> moins
<jsgotangco> halo!
<mvirkkil> hi
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<silbs> mdke: ping
<nixternal> who's buying lunch today?
<jjesse> i thought you were?
<nixternal> argh..i am always buying it
<mdke> silbs: hi
<mdke> silbs: (going for dinner now, will check irc when I get back)
* jenda prods the channel
<jenda> Could anyone host 400 KiB for the Marketing Team? I can't catch any of our own people right now.
<crimsun> tell me where to download, and I'll give you a URL.
<jenda> crimsun: ah thanks - one of the MT folks just got back to me, though.
<jenda> Thanks for the offer, though :)
<crimsun> k
<jenda> crimsun: sorry to bother again. Seems I lost contact there, and I'm beginning to be in a hurry. You think I could send you a half-meg email i exchange for an URL afterall?
<crimsun> jenda: sure. crimsun at ubuntu dot com
<jenda> course ;) launchpad says it all
<jenda> sent
<crimsun> jenda: http://sh.nu/~crimsun/mirror/ubuntu-marketing/
<crimsun> sec
<jenda> thanks a bajillion, crimsun 
<jenda> How do I attach images to the wiki? can't figure that out...
<Burgwork> jenda, you need to upload them. On the drop down menu
<jenda> ah, thx
<Burgwork> hmm, i need a good book about open source for one of my fellow sales reps
<Burgwork> I hesitate to give him Cathedral/Bazaar
<Burgwork> got another idea?
<pygi> Burgwork, The Success of Open Source?
<Burgwork> pygi, that looks good, thanks
<pygi> Burgwork, :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-05
<jsgotangco> good morning
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey LaserJock having a good holiday?
<LaserJock> decent
<LaserJock> I'm at work for a few hours while my wife is at the hospital doing so volunteer work
<LaserJock> then we're going to go see some fireworks
<jsgotangco> that's nice
<jsgotangco> july 4 used to be indpendence day here as well but we changed that heh
<LaserJock> really?
<LaserJock> btw,  nice blog about Andreas
<jsgotangco> yep, America "declared" us independed after the war
<jsgotangco> thanks
<LaserJock> oh yeah
<jsgotangco> after manila was ruined heh
<LaserJock> what is the offical relationship between the US and you guys? is there any?
<jsgotangco> i dunno US treats PH like a friend if it needs something...
<LaserJock> I remember reading about the Philippines in my history books in school
<jsgotangco> heh it was pretty nasty the first time america came in
<jsgotangco> had a bloody war
<jsgotangco> because we just declared independence from spain
<jsgotangco> but the treaty of paris had the us purchase the islands from spain
<LaserJock> heh
<jsgotangco> but from what my grandfather told me it was pretty upbeat before world war II
* jsgotangco thinks we finally got our independence a decade ago when the government decided not to allow US bases inside the country anymore
<LaserJock> yeah, makes sense
<jsgotangco> it really pissed off a lot of bar operators in the area though heh
<LaserJock> I bet
<jsgotangco> have you heard of the term neo-colonialism?
<LaserJock> not really, but I can guess
<jsgotangco> its usually associated with america being a superpower and all, and influencing too much of its former colonies/territories by bombarding it with american commerce influencing the overall economy of the country
<jsgotangco> and trancends to the culture of the people itself
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> I'd see that as a side-effect of globalization, sort of America spilling out of it's borders :-)
<jsgotangco> if you think about it, globalization is partly neo-colonialism
<jsgotangco> it just happened that my country sufferend 600+ years of colonialization from outsiders =)
<LaserJock> yeah, that makes sense
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: and overall do you think it has been a negative thing for you country?
<LaserJock> we only had ~ 150 years of colonialization
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: PH is an Asian country and yet it doesn't feel like Asia when you are here
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: here's an interesting read
<jsgotangco> http://www.bibingka.com/phg/misc/july4not.htm
<LaserJock> so say if it was colonized by another Asian country it would have been better?
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't really know...our cultural identity has been muddled up ever since the spanish came
<LaserJock> hmm
<jsgotangco> i myself am not a pure native considering i originate from chinese immigrants
<LaserJock> I really don't know how much a cultural identity the US really has either
<LaserJock> our families come from all over and bring their culture along with them, it gets mixed and mangled with the rest
<jsgotangco> heh yeah
<jsgotangco> if the spanish didnt come at all, we're most likely to be an islamic state considering they arrived with lots of resistance
* LaserJock pulls up a map of Asia
<LaserJock> hmm, farther north than I remember
<jsgotangco> heh
<LaserJock> It's amazing how complicated the relationship between countries can get over the years
<LaserJock> and the US has only been around for a relatively short amount of time :-)
<jsgotangco> i am not surprised if most americans have no clue about its past relationships with other countries, after all they already live in a big place and i know people who haven't even left their home states
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> there are quite a few people who don't know anything but the 50 states
<Plug_> I had to answer a pub quiz question once.
<LaserJock> we hear about Puerto Rico every once in a while
<Plug_> What letter does not appear in the name of any of the 50 US states?
<Plug_> We got it eventually.  I wonder how long it would take someone from the US.
<LaserJock> umm ...
<Plug_> (Here == Noo Zulland)
<LaserJock> is x not in any?
<Plug_> Texas
<LaserJock> doh, hope there aren't any Texans around ;-)
<Plug_> Come on, that was an easy one :)
<LaserJock> z then
<Plug_> Arizona
<LaserJock> ah right, these states are close to me I should know better
<Plug_> Which state are you in, LaserJock?
<LaserJock> Nevada
<Plug_> Heh.  I live on a Nevada Rd.
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> what state?
<LaserJock> or country? or whatever
<Plug_> New Zealand
<LaserJock> doh, Noo Zulland ;-)
<Plug_> :)
<Plug_> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&q=&near=new+zealand&ie=UTF8&ll=-37.789743,175.32742&spn=0.022417,0.054245&om=1
<Plug_> Place to be.
<LaserJock> heh, everybody in the US wants to live in New Zealand
<jsgotangco> NZ the country?
<jsgotangco> or the southern part of AU
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> kidding
<Plug_> ...
<Plug_> ;)
<LaserJock> NZ
<Plug_> I was going to reply with "can it mean anything else?"
<jsgotangco> yeah considering LCA2006 happened in Dunedin so it must be part of AU lol
<LaserJock> Australia is also pretty popular, but NZ is probably the top of the list for people I talk to anyway
<Plug_> (It's the best part)
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: bah they just want to live in middle earth
<jsgotangco> ;)
<Plug_> both .au and .nz are irritatingly far away from the rest of the world
<Plug_> if you follow that Google Maps link I gave you about 20k east
<Plug_> you'll end up in Hobbiton
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: true, but there is also a lot of other movies made there that get people excited :-)
<jsgotangco> how far is the drive from Hamilto to Aukland?
<Plug> About 1.5 hours.
<Plug> From the edge of Auckland the sign claims 100km, and the open road speed limit is 100km/hr
<Plug> so I always use that as a challenge. ;)
<Plug> bbiab.
<LaserJock> well, I'm happy to be back in the US at any rate. At least it's home :-)
<LaserJock> France would have a been a bit better if I knew more French ;-)
<jsgotangco> do you have kids?
<LaserJock> me? no
<LaserJock> I've been in grad school and my wife just got out of grad school
* jsgotangco wish he could afford to go back to school and re-tool himself
<LaserJock> I'm going to feel that way by the time I'm done :-)
<jsgotangco> :/
* mdke_ mornings
<jsgotangco> hello mdke
<mdke> hiya jerome
<jsgotangco> how are you doing
<mdke> very well thanks, bit sleepy :)
<mdke> you?
<jsgotangco> im ok just feeling some midlife crisis though
<mdke> aww
* mdke hugs jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> :/
* robitaille wonders when he will hit that mid-life point
<bhuvan> mdke: i'm unable to build the pdf in trunk. it reports:make[1] : *** No rule to make target `pdf'.  Stop.
<bhuvan> mdke: yeah, pdf target is not available in ubuntu/Makefile. is this intended ?
<mdke> bhuvan: I can't remember, I can add them if you need to build pdfs already, but you could just use the html
<bhuvan> mdke: yeah i use html. just wish to know if it needs to be fixed
<mdke> i don't think so yet
<mdke> gtg to work, see you in a bit
<bhuvan> ok
<Liz> finally !
<Liz> i couldnt remember the irc address to get here
<jsgotangco> haha
<Liz> i had to go through a pile of emails to find it
<mpt> It's linked from the front page of doc.ubuntu.com ...
<mpt> (maybe it should be *on* the front page)
<Liz> i ended up finding it from the link on the wiki page
<Liz> now that i know where to find you, ill be back 
<jjesse> i made an upload to kubuntu/desktopguide to fix a bug, someone needs to copy the change to branches/dapper as i don't have branches checked out
<mdke> jjesse: that's not quite how it works, branches/dapper is frozen now
<mdke> trunk is for edgy
<jjesse> mdke: ok, so how will the bug get solved?
<jjesse> i mean i've commited a fix, but it will need to be released
<mdke> jjesse: in dapper?
<jjesse> yeah
<mdke> we don't usually fix bugs in dapper
<mdke> how serious is it?
<jjesse> not serious
<jjesse> i guess when i redo the release notes, which would be a serious bug in my opionon we should release it
<mdke> yes, that's different, because there are no translations of the release notes
<mdke> and it's a serious bug
<jjesse> ok, but because there are translations of the deskotp guide we wouldn't re-release it
<jjesse> requiring new translations correct?
<mdke> jjesse: that's right.
<mdke> unless it was very serious, and warranted an exception to that
<mdke> in such a case, we would tell the translators, and ask them to retranslate the relevant bit
<jjesse> i understand, so fix committed is the best status to keep it as, and then when edgy comes out change it to fix released
<mdke> before releasing the fix
<mdke> jjesse: you can mark it as fix released when it is fixed in edgy
<jjesse> mdke: understanding now thanks
<nixternal> hey everyone!!!
<jjesse> hello nixternal
<nixternal> hiy jjesse
<nixternal> im bushed...i woke up early to do a fun job in a fun place with a bunch of fun people
<nixternal> bah 
<jjesse> well i'm glad you had fun
<Burgwork> hey nixternal, jjesse 
<jjesse> hello Burgwork
<nixternal> heya Burgwork
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-06
<LaserJock> mdke__: awake?
<mvirkkil> Seems like I need to do some datamining. I've been playing around with the xslt to do docbook->moinmoin 
<mvirkkil> The version I have now, handles most of what the moin->docbook generates, with the single huge omission of graphics.
<mvirkkil> (because it's a bit complicated)
<mvirkkil> Any suggestions on how to accomplish, where to start?
<LaserJock> I'm a simple docbook user so I'm afraid I'm no help :(
<mvirkkil> LaserJock: What's a "simple docbook user"
<LaserJock> meaning, I can write docs with it
<LaserJock> but I don't know much about doing stylesheets, etc.
<mvirkkil> LaserJock: Ahh.. I was asking more like "what are the most important docbook elements", maybe. 
<LaserJock> mvirkkil: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocBookReference has most of what I use
<mvirkkil> LaserJock: Cool! Since I already handle almost all of that :)
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I actually don't have a graphics in the doc I maintain so I don't have a lot to offer there
<LaserJock> s/a/any/
<mvirkkil> Hmm.. I don't think all those examples are valid.
<mvirkkil> yup. the list examples are invalid.
<LaserJock> could be, that page is a work in progress I believe
<mvirkkil> you must have <listitem><para>text</para></listitem> 
<Laser_away> right, I believe so
<Laser_away> gotta get home now, bbl
<mvirkkil> ok
<nixternal> Burgwork: was that you that wanted someone to go through one of the encryption pages on the wiki and see if it works?
<robotgeek> somneone pinged me, but my away log was full
<robotgeek> so, i dont know what/who pinged me
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: I've been hacking on the xslt.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: you mentioned you might be interested in further developing it.
* jsgotangco waves in the channel
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: hello brian =)
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: the docbook->moin xslt, that is. I split it in to smaller chunks, and added support for table attributes (align, valign, morerows, colspan), glosslist support, unlimited depth for lists, and the <section> tag.
<mvirkkil> Seems like I need to do some datamining. I've been playing around with the xslt to do docbook->moinmoin. Now I need to know what to concentrate on. Any suggestions?
<mvirkkil> I can't realistically support over 400 elements, so out of necessity, it's going to be a subset.
<mdke__> Laser_away: now
<mdke__> morning all
<jsgotangco> hello mdke =)
<Madpilot> morning mdke 
<mdke> how are things in docland today?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> i sure did some docs today but for the UNDP and published in LP
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, I'm thinking about how to accomplish assessing what docbook stuff I need to support.
<mdke> mvirkkil: uhuh
<mvirkkil> mdke: I've basically added support for everything the moin->docbook (article, not book) generates, with the exception of images.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I think I'll do the "chunking" of a book in to separate smaller parts in python and not xsl.
<mvirkkil> and for now I'm concentrating on the xsl part.
<mdke> mvirkkil: sounds very cool.
<mdke> mvirkkil: if you want to patch what we have in the repository, and for us to test it, give us a shout
* mdke goes to work
* mvirkkil shouts
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'll still add support for images, but after that it would be nice to have you test it.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Or maybe even before that. What are you planning on using it for?
* jsgotangco wonders why tables in yelp have no borders..or is it my tags
<jsgotangco> it seems to have very faint row colors
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: I noticed that bug too. You need to specify borders for each cell separately iirc.
<jsgotangco> ouchhh
<jsgotangco> and docbook tables arent the most beautiful in markup out there
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: That's why I prefer writing wikimarkup and converting ;)
<jsgotangco> hehe yeah i hear ya
<jsgotangco> its just that i have to finish up my contract with the UN with this small conversion job
<mvirkkil> "#Bug in yelp, the two lines below don't affect rendering: self.tgroup.setAttribute('rowsep', '1'); self.tgroup.setAttribute('colsep', '1')"
<mvirkkil> Instead I do both of those separately for each single entry element.
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: What conversion?
<mdke> mvirkkil: putting our guides into the wiki
<rob> hmm, I guess I should file a bug on the packaging guide
<rob> https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/appendix-chroot.html
<jsgotangco> rob: do it
<jsgotangco> yeah
<rob> the configure locales part doesn't configure locales
<rob> one needs to also do something like: apt-get install language-pack-en
<rob> ok done
<rob> #52070
<mvirkkil> mdke: So like install-guide could be an example? https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/generic/installguide/C/installation-guide.xml
<mvirkkil> mdke: Because that contains almost exclusibely procedures and variablelists, it would seem. And neither is supported or has a clean conversion to wiki.
<mdke> mvirkkil: well not that one specifically. But certainly guides which contain LOTS of procedures and some variablelists
<mvirkkil> mdke: hmm.. That's a problem. Any suggestions on how to map those to the wikisyntax?
<mdke> mvirkkil: well, I don't know how it works technically, but I would have thought that procedures can just be turned into a numbered list, if more than 1 step, and a bulleted list if a single step. Or is that too simplistic
<mvirkkil> mdke: Actually, most of the other examples I'm seeing in your repo, don't contain procedures or variablelists.
<mvirkkil> mdke: The problem is, that the wikisyntax doesn't handle anything that isn't a single paragraph with some markup very gracefully. Most steps contains screenshots and several paragraphs of text.
<mvirkkil> mdke: But it would seem that the installation-guide is just about the only one with many procedures and variablelists. Other docbooks seem to look a lot simpler.
<mdke> mvirkkil: we hardly have any screenshots. But if you want to see lots of procedures, see trunk/ubuntu/desktopguide/C
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ahh crap ;) But those aren't as complex steps. Those could be mapped to orderedlists.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'll see what I can do :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks for the feedback. 
<mdke> thank you
<apokryphos> mdke: ping
<mdke> apokryphos: hello
<apokryphos> mdke: hi. I see you changed some things on CommonQuestions (nice stuff), just wondering what you think the advantages are of the new contents page
<apokryphos> seems a lot more troublesome to me. You  have to go to a section, then keep scrolling down the page to see if you find the answer
<mdke> apokryphos: which contents page?
<apokryphos> (instead of having all the questions in a small list, then clicking on the one you want). That method would work if there were very few questions only, I think.
<apokryphos> mdke: on CommonQuestions
<mdke> ah, the table of contents on that page?
<mdke> I think the previous table was very ugly and unwieldy
<mdke> i think keeping it simple is easier
<apokryphos> not when there are many questions, though. A user has to go that section, then keep scrolling down the page until he finds the question
<apokryphos> seeing all the questions as bullet points (and as numbers) would be a lot easier, I think
<mdke> as long as the sections are appropriately structured, it should be obvious where the answers are
<mdke> but I'd rather discuss it on the list, I don't have much time now
<apokryphos> a large table isn't bad as long as it's properly organised (and I think your organisation of it might be better ,indeed )
<mdke> I opened a thread specifically about this
<apokryphos> I'm not the subscribed to the list, so I would've missed it. Also I wasn't getting emails about changes to the page (perhaps because of the move)
<apokryphos> but I'll post on the list, sure
<mdke> thanks
<enrico> Is there some free LPI ubuntu training material available?
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: hello
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: i only have a couple of minutes, then i have to go for a day, but here is what I'm thinking...
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: I have been thinking about the article->moin stuff
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: Now I remember why I stopped working on it
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: It's because I realized that the best way to do it is to first do docbook->xhtml with xslt, then do xhtml->moin with xslt
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: also, the problem with moin->docbook is that there is a certain minimum level of complexity that is involved due to the nature of mvirkkil: docbook structure and document structure
<jeffsch> oops... that should be...
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: also, the problem with moin->docbook is that there is a certain minimum level of complexity that is involved due to the nature of docbook structure and document structure
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: moin is supposed to be simple, but to make it handle the complexities of a document, you need to make moin not simple
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: for example, the admonition macro in moin: how is it more simple and easy to remember than <tip><title></title><para></para></tip>?
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: the admonition macro is something like [[admonition,tip, title, text] ] , iirc. It might be easier to type, but same difficulty to remember
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: you will need many macros to handle the many docbook tags
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: it's probably easier to remember a hundred docbook tags than it is to remember a hundred moin macros
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: I'm not striving for 100%, only the 90% that counts :)
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: I think that it might be easier to have a single docbook macro in moin
<jeffsch> [[docbook] ] , or something
<jeffsch> then the moin formatter can turn the docbook processing over to xslt (or whatever) to produce the html
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: And I've basically finished my work on moin->docbook. I needed to add Admonition and Insert(into="chapter") macros.
<jeffsch> ah cool
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: That would be too radical a change at this point. People seem to be happy with what the moin->docbook formatter can do at the moment. It's not perfect, but it's good enough.
<jeffsch> yeah... after we use it for awhile we will have a good idea of where to go 
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: yeah. The idea people seem to have is to write most of the text in collaboration on a wiki. Then the "official guys" take it, clean it up, and make it ready for primetime.
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: have you tested it on random wiki pages yet?
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: And this docbook->moin would probably be used for importing half finished projects or projects which need extensive work.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Yeah. Moins SyntaxReference produces a valid docbook (!)
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Check out http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Hmm.. Well, except for the fact that one section contains no data. I used to have a workaround which would put an empty para, but it was ugly, so I removed it.
<joachim-n> ah, the eternal wiki->docbook question... :)
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: :)
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: Any thoughts about the subject?
<joachim-n> I think there's a gnome summer of coder looking at it too
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: That would be me :P
<joachim-n> ah :)
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: No wait.
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: Sorry.
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: I'm the fedora summer coder.
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: ok, i have to go to work... talk to you later, and good work!
<joachim-n> Goran Raki is the gnome summer coder
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: I've talked to the gnome one, but he just wants to make pretty pages from existing docbooks, not edit them much.
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: Yup.
<joachim-n> right. that's the core focus of his project
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: I tried brainstorming with him on how we could collaborate, but it didn't seem to work out really...
<joachim-n> the thought I had about it was that there's a lot of clues in the text a parser can use
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: There's also a php summer of coder working on php-docs<->docbook
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: Yeah. I've been thinking about adding support for a heading row in a table, if the first row's text is bolded.
<joachim-n> yeah
<joachim-n> I was thinking of things like "choose File->Open... " 
<joachim-n> which the parser can guess is a menu command, and wrap it up in the dozens of tags you need for those
<mvirkkil> joachim-n: will only work for one language..
<joachim-n> ah, the "choose" you mean
<joachim-n> just the -> between words then
<jsgotangco> ciao
<nixternal> moins
<CarlFK> the ubuntu-user mail list is a bit overwhelming - Where can I suggest some sub-topics like -sound, networking, apps...
<enrico> Is there some free LPI training material for Ubuntu?
<mdke_> hi newz2000. Do you have any view yet on bug 51571? I can walk you through fixing it if you agree
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 51571 in ubuntu-website "Create a bug contact for the ubuntu-website product" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/51571
<newz2000> ooh, that's a cool feature
<newz2000> let me look
<newz2000> ok, I saw that come through, yes
<newz2000> I'd appreciate any info on this subject
<mdke_> newz2000: for example?
<mdke_> you need clarity on what the bug is about?
<newz2000> mdke_ yes, that would be helpful.
<mdke_> ok
<LaserJock> mdke_: still?
<nixternal> jjesse_: thank you for the email bud!!
<jjesse_> nixternal: np
<jjesse_> when does the mtg start?
<nixternal> i dont' think it is scheduled yet
<jjesse_> ah
<nixternal> actually..according to -meeting, it is tuesday
<nixternal> however that wasn't on the wiki earlier nor the fridge
* nixternal investigates ;)
<nixternal> amarok transfer to ipod is really slow...i dont' know if it is amarok and ipod issue, or the fact i use rockbox..but i don't think rockbox is the issue there
<jjesse_> agreed really slow
<nixternal> ahh..it is on the wiki now
<nixternal> 11 July 2006, 20:00 UTC
<nixternal> 15:00 for me, 16:00 for you
<jjesse_> grin
<nixternal> it is now set in kontact
<nixternal> i might sit in and listen to the Edubuntu Cookbook meeting...the work they do over there is neat..and i have been playing with Edubuntu, trying to get my church to use it in the childrens lab
<LaserJock> way cool
<nixternal> rofl..on the fridge, the "i want a pony" pic, you click it and it has a little girl upset and it says no!!
<nixternal> gahaahaha
<nixternal> omlord my stomach hurts from that one
<LaserJock> mdke_: ping?
<mdke_> LaserJock: email... I can't stick around now
<LaserJock> mdke_: I just wondered if anybody from -doc was going to the dev meeting
<LaserJock> that is going on now
<mdke_> not me...
<pygi> me :)
<mvirkkil> mdke_: seems I can't browse the docteam trunk
<jjesse_> i know we talked once before about setting up bzr for ubuntu-docs and iahve access to store it on the doc.ubuntu.com server but i forget how to check it
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> jjesse_: what do you want to do exactly?
<LaserJock> grab the bzr? or push?
<jjesse_> yeah grab the bzr
<jjesse_> just to play a little w/ it
<LaserJock> bzr branch http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/ or you can do checkout instead of branch if you want it svn-like
<jjesse_> THANKS LaserJock
<jjesse_> sorry bout the caps
<LaserJock> be forwarned though, it is quite old
<LaserJock> I'll try to freshen it up soon
<jjesse_> i noticed
<mdke_> mvirkkil: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yah. That was the one I had trouble connecting to... No problems now. Probably a local network glitch.
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, apparently I'll try to get a brief doc team report at the next distro meeting :/
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-07
<jrib> freenx
<jrib> hmm usually ubotu is in this window :) sorry about that
<Burgwork> !freenx
<ompaul> freenx is advanced remote desktop technology. For more information and install instructions, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreeNX
<ompaul> should the bot be here?
<Burgwork> if we want it
<ompaul> do we want it?
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think so
<LaserJock> we aren't support :-)
<LaserJock> although it might be handy every once in a while to see what the bot is saying
<ompaul> LaserJock, I was about to say that 
<LaserJock> ompaul: do you know if there is a limit to how many channels the bot can be in?
<ompaul> LaserJock, there is but I don't think the bot will ever get close to it
<LaserJock> ompaul: do you know what channels it is in? we were thinking of using it over in -motu
<ompaul> ask Seveas for it 
<LaserJock> k
<ompaul> you can't add all you can do is read but if you try to add that gets pumped into another channel and then it can be seen to be useful or emm not useful - the later gets ignored the former gets added
<ompaul> with the old version there were some (several tbh) issues of bot abuse
<LaserJock> ok, so who does the adds?
<ompaul> a group of adders irc ops 
<bimberi> ompaul: i recall that it was going to be configured to let people with ubuntu/member hostcloaks add factoids?
<ompaul> bimberi, don't know if that was done - must check lp for it 
<bimberi> btw i'm not an op but do have edit rights
<LaserJock> ompaul: k, well we are trying to get MOTU School geared up and there are some common questions, so it seem natural to use the bot
<ompaul> so he has extened it :)
<bimberi> ompaul: i think if you show yourself to be an editor of good character - not sure why i got in then :P
<ompaul> bimberi, your reputation preceeds you - he did it out of phear? ;-)
<bimberi> r o f l m a o
<ompaul> and on that note of comedy I must leave you
<ompaul> I suggest the questions be fired at Seveas or put them in via launchpad https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-bots
<LaserJock> k
<ompaul> I must away
* nixternal takes a gander at h.u.c/c/Security and begins to cry!!!
<nixternal> the Encryption stuff is to much
<nixternal> there are 5 pages of encryption, and now i am trying to figure out the possiblity of one giant merge
<nixternal> ya..one giant merge it will be
<jsgotangco> nice
* nixternal don't like first person wiki tutorials
<nixternal> we need something that doesn't allow the use of "I"
<nixternal> on the wiki
<nixternal> no I, my, mine, ours, we, us, nothing like that
<jsgotangco> ok im definitely not going to do some wiki work for quite a while then
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> it makes it hard to doctor up w/o the possibility of someone thinking im trying to steal their mojo
<nixternal> at least people are leaving their names and what not..so i always add them to ==== Authors ==== at the bottom of apage...if i toc level 3 then i don't have to worry about that getting in it...and they remain happy
<jsgotangco> hmm i didnt notice that next week is UVF
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<crimsun> yeah, that's why we're all up in arms
<crimsun> and legs and ponies
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> ponies
<nixternal> the fridge pony quote and picture is killer...that poor child ;)
<jsgotangco> have one then http://futurepast.free.fr/you-are-my-pony.png
<jsgotangco> :D
* nixternal goes huntin' for ponies
<nixternal> speaking of ponies.. jsgotangco you familiar with the burbs at all, like Bartlett?
<jsgotangco> hmm not so much im afraid...ill be travelling by fall though and hope to stay for a while there
<nixternal> well..i live out here, dupage county where bartlett is..and this week was their fest...so we went on the 4th for the fireworks and what not...and this little girl was walking around with a freakin' pet pony on a leash
<jsgotangco> haha
<nixternal> i had taken pics of a truck that flipped over and my batteries died on me...so i never go the pic
<nixternal> but....there are stables 2 miles from where i live..im going pony huntin' just for crimsun
<nixternal> i have never in my life seen a kid walking around with a pony on a leash like it was a pet
<jsgotangco> hmm wonder whats with the forums
<jsgotangco> i rarely go there and i get to have a chance now and i get a popup login dialog
<nixternal> where are ubuntu.com page issues reported?
<nixternal> whats up Madpilot
<Madpilot> a cold gin & tonic
<nixternal> heheh
<bimberi> nixternal: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+filebug
* nixternal misses drinking
<nixternal> ty bimberi
<nixternal> i have been pulling out my hair for that one
<nixternal> i was so close too
<bimberi> nixternal: np :)
<mpt> Can anyone recommend a DocBook validator?
<jsgotangco> the script in svn doesn't work for you?
<mpt> ah! it was staring me in the face
<mpt> thanks jsgotangco 
<nixternal> i use the plugin in kate
<mpt> <-- newbie
* nixternal too mpt don't feel bad
* nixternal << newbie
<jsgotangco> oh kate has a validator plugin?
<crimsun> yeah
* jsgotangco >> used to doing everything on the console
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: moving wiki pages again?
<Madpilot> hmm, not currently
<Madpilot> why, are there some that should be moved?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingInternetExplorer
<Madpilot> ick.
<Madpilot> I'll move it in a moment
<Plug> Is there some method for ensuring new content doesnt get created on w.u.c?
<Plug> I doubt I'd know this as an outsider.
<Burgundavia> not beyond big sticks and social engineering
<Madpilot> Plug, not currently
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, moved, and I'm contacting the author to let him know where his page went...
<Burgundavia> thanks
<Madpilot> one thing that interested me - after the switch to help.u.c/c, we suddenly aquired a whole different batch of wiki contributors - different names in RecentChanges
<Madpilot> not sure if it was the novelty value, or what, but it was interesting
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> ooh, new forum look
<Madpilot> noticed that - it looks half-finished, imo
<mdke> nice though
<mdke> it doesn't look right in epiphany, it doesn't use the whole screen. but i'm happy that the look is getting closer
<Burgundavia> they are migrating to a more consistent look
<bimberi> ahh, i thought they might be trying to cut down on traffic :)
<bimberi> Should superced wikipages show something like "This page has been moved to help.ubuntu.com.  Redirecting..." on them?  I realise the action makes that obvious but still.
<bimberi> *superceded
<bimberi> sheesh, s/c/s/
<mdke> bimberi: we haven't done that so far, they just redirect instantly
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. opra through apt. 
<bimberi> mdke: kk, just thowing it in there
<bimberi> opra?
<mdke> bimberi: it probably would have been a good idea, but it's too late now
<mdke> bimberi: opera
<mdke> it's not in apt though, it is in app-install-data-commercial
<Kamping_Kaiser> ah, i wandered what that package was
<bimberi> mdke: thanks, i did know, i just like to rib Kamping_Kaiser's typing :)
<mdke> heh
<Kamping_Kaiser> bimberi, :| 
<Madpilot> need sleep - later, all
<mdke> Burgundavia: I've made a group for getting bug notifications about the website, if you're interested it is ubuntu-website
<Burgundavia> mdke: perfect, thanks
<Burgundavia> night all
<mdke> who knows anything about edubuntu documentation?
<jsgotangco> you can ask pygi i haven't been involved with the cookbook for months
<jsgotangco> i dont get the idea either, they can even use bzr on LP even
<crimsun> there was just a post about cookbook
<pygi> how may I help? :)
<mdke> pygi: do you know what the cookbook team has against working with the documentation team?
<crimsun> oh, that was mdke's :)
<pygi> mdke, if you are reffering to Robin Shepards mail to list, he's so wrong
<mdke> I'm concerned about this
<pygi> I intend to respond to his mail later today
<mdke> The last item was the location of the repository, LaserJock kindly
<mdke> offered use of the Doc Team repo but HedgeMage politely declined and
<mdke> will be setting up a temporary repo on her server"
<pygi> yes, saw that
<pygi> that's a "lie"
<mdke> eh?
<rob> oh, hedgemage is involved?
<rob> I'll have a chat to her if you want
<pygi> rob, don't worry, she hasnt declined nothing
<rob> ah ok
<rob> I hope you do use the docteam repo
<pygi> ofcourse we will, no worries
<rob> :)
<mdke> isn't the work already under way on the wiki?
<pygi> mdke, right, but we will put all in docteam repo
<rob> hey btw I'm backporting Democracy Player for Dapper, do you mind if I document it on the wiki?
<mdke> continuing on the wiki is also an option... and then converting it to docbook when it is nearly ready
<mdke> that way it gets published in both places
<pygi> will talk to you later mdke about then, and will respond to list ASAP
<mdke> pygi: great, thanks. I'd be really happy to help
<mdke> rob, unless it is something illegal, I don't see how we could have any objection to you adding documentation!
<rob> nah, its awesome
<rob> free legal internet tv with a GPL app
<rob> http://www.getdemocracy.com/
<jsgotangco> does democracy still have those mad moz deps
<rob> umm let me chec
<rob> check
<rob> yes
<rob> although its in edgy now with those
<rob> I'll see if I can work around them
<pygi> mdke, ok, responded to list
<pygi> talk to you later
<mdke> thanks!
<mdke> pygi: other thing is that some of the relevant wiki pages appear not to have moved to help.u.c/community
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters
<mdke> and I'm not sure of the difference between that and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook
<mpt> ugh
<mpt> I get a "Warning: Unresponsive script" error whenever I load a page in yelp
<mdke> mpt: a particular page?
<mpt> mdke, happens for every page in the Ubuntu Desktop Guide, but not for any other doc
<mpt> that's as much as I've narrowed it down so far...
<mpt> doesn't happen with the Server Guide, for example
<mdke> odd, seems to work fine here, and I didn't see any other bug reports about it
<mpt> actually, doesn't happen in the "Getting Started" section
<mpt> it only happens in the "Adding, Removing and Updating Applications" section
<mpt> that narrows it down to one file, I guess
<mpt> doesn't happen on that section's table of contents
<mdke> yes, although I still cant reproduce it
<mpt> ok, it happens for every page in that section, and not for any pages I can find in any other section
<mdke> what locale?
<mpt> C
<mpt> ... I assume
<mpt> How would I tell?
<mdke> if it's english, it's C, there don't appear to be any variants of english for the desktop guide
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> do " xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/desktopguide.xml"
<mdke> any errors?
<mpt> no
<mpt> aha
<mpt> validation errors for add-applications.xml
<mdke> have you edited that file?
<mpt> They're all of the form "IDREF attribute linkend references an unknown ID "_______"
<mdke> when you run it on desktopguide.xml?
<mpt> no, as I said, there are no errors for desktopguide.xml, but there are validation errors for add-applications.xml
<mpt> which is the section that's hanging yelp
<mdke> that's not the problem
<mdke> if you validate a single file, naturally it can't find references to sections in other files
<mpt> oh, I see
<mdke> it's only desktopguide.xml that should work
<mpt> all the other sections have the same errors
<mpt> and desktopguide.xml does indeed work
* mdke nods
<mdke> mpt: no idea Im afraid, must be a yelp bug of some kind
* mpt looks to see how to make a link to another section
<jsgotangco> its called an xref
<mpt> ok, xref doesn't let me customize the link text
<mpt> aha, <link>
<mdke> mpt: you should use <xref linkend="id"/> for cross references. the link text comes from the title of the section you are linking to
<mpt> mdke, yes, I'll use that except where I want custom link text
<mdke> mpt: it's generally nice to keep cross referencing consistent though
<mpt> well, I suspect that depends :-)
<mpt> I haven't come up with a good example yet, though
<pygi> mdke, you have time?
<mpt> (an example of where custom text would be appropriate, I mean)
<mdke> pygi: a bit
<pygi> okay, so about that "second" Cookbook, that was started way earlier and was never finished
<pygi> about those two pages that need moving, please do so ^_^
<pygi> there, I hope I was short enough ^_^
<mdke> pygi, thanks
<pygi> so I am not sure if we should really move that one, considering it's not finished
<pygi> but it has some useful material perhaps
<pygi> no, thank you mdke :)
<mdke> mpt: the reason we tend to insist on xrefs being used is that when the documents are translated, the titles get automatically translated, whereas I dont think that is true if you use a customised link text
<mdke> or maybe they do... /me thinks
<mpt_> ugh :-(
<mdke> mpt: how are you doing the link?
<mpt_> mdke, I'm in Adding, Removing, and etc -> Introduction
<mpt_> which lists the three main package managers
<mpt_> and I want to link each of them to their section
<mpt_> so, <listitem><para><application<xref linkend="gnome-app-install" /></application> - The simplest way to install and uninstall programs.</para></listitem>
<mpt_> That should produce a link with the text "Add/Remove Programs"
<mpt_> Instead, it produces a link with the text "Section 2.2 ? Add/Remove Applications"
<mdke> mpt_: that is because the yelp stylesheets add the "section 2.2" bit
<mpt_> So, can we remove that?
<mpt_> It's relevant when printing
<mpt_> but not for on-screen help
<mpt_> or will I have to use <link> instead
<mdke> I would have thought that is possible, yeah
<mdke> I'm not sure how Yelp printing works...
* mpt_ wonders why ubuntu/default.css begins with the text "KDE-wide default CSS..."
<mdke> mpt_: <link linkend='id'>link text</link> should work fine
<mpt_> ok
<mdke> actually, that is a hell of a lot better than xref
* mdke updates index-mdke.xml accordingly
<mpt_> :-)
* mdke deletes ubuntu/default.css too
<mpt_> It's unused?
* mpt_ wonders if <emphasis> is really DocBook's closest equivalent to HTML's <dfn>
<mpt_> Rocking!
<mpt_> DocBook has a <keyword> element that's not displayed by default
<mpt_> Now if only the search function can be taught to pay attention to it ...
* mpt_ reports a bug
<mdke> very nice
<mdke> does it not do that already?
<mpt_> doesn't look like it
<mpt_> I added <keyword>fqwhgads</keyword> to add-applications-introduction, but still got 0 results when searching for that word
<mpt_> Bleh, I have to go <sect2><sect2info><keywordset><keyword>foo</keyword><keyword>bar</keyword></keywordset></sect2info></sect2>
<mpt_> I suppose <sect2><keywords>foo, bar</keywords>...</sect2> would be too easy
<mdke> or even <sect2 id="foo" keywords="bar,foobar"></sect2>
<mpt_> yeah
<mpt_> since they're not going to be formatted at all
<mpt_> and that would reduce the need for styling, too
<mpt_> And now that I'm using the correct syntax, the keywords are shown in plain sight!
* mpt_ bangs his head against the style sheet
<mpt_> mdke, where's the best place to report bugs against the default styling?
<mdke> for yelp?
<mpt_> yes
<mpt_> for yelp in Ubuntu
<mdke> afaik, on yelp upstream under the stylesheets component
<mpt_> hmm
<mpt_> What Is A Package Manager?
<mpt_> What is a Package Manager?
<mpt_> What is a package manager?
<rob> ?
<mpt_> sorry
* mpt_ should carry out capitalization experiments in the privacy of his own text editor :-)
<rob> hehe
* mvirkkil prefers all upper case and with some extra question marks: WHAT IS A PACKAGE MANAGER???!?!!1?
<mvirkkil> mpt_: Could you use that style?
<mpt_> *.mvirkill {text-transform: uppercase;}
<mpt_> .mvirkill title::after {content: '!?!!?!1'}
<mvirkkil> mpt_: lol. I was just coming back to suggest that second line.
<mpt_> well, then, sorry for stealing your comeback line ;-)
<mvirkkil> mpt_: Too bad there isn't a text-transform: l33t; or 1337, yet
<mvirkkil> I could probably hack one up in javascript though.. 
<rob> that would be uncool
<rob> :P
<mvirkkil> yeah.. Maybe write an xslt instead.
<mpt_> mvirkkil, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2003Apr/0012.html
<mvirkkil> mpt_: :D
<mvirkkil> <xsl:value-of select="translate(text(),'e','3')"/>
<mvirkkil> etc
<mvirkkil> and naturally <xsl:value-of select="translate(text(), '.', '!!1!!!1!!1one!!')"/>
* mpt_ is glad he doesn't know XSL
* mvirkkil wonders if he could get that in to the docbook->moin xslt as an easter egg. 
<mpt_> reported http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=346873 about hiding the section numbers
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 346873 in stylesheets "Don't display section numbers on screen" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<mpt_> "To launch Add/Remove Applications click Applications -> Add/Remove Applications on the desktop menu system."
* mpt_ goes hunting for this "desktop menu system"
<mpt_> And the menu item isn't even called "Add/Remove Applications" :-(
<mpt_> a <sect1> containing only one <sect2>
<mpt_> mdke, any drawbacks to deleting the <sect2></sect2> tags?
<mpt_> iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit's synchronboy!
<matthewrevell> mpt_: :)
<mpt_> sounds like something from The Incredibles
<matthewrevell> That's my silenceisdefeat.org login - I try to change my nick before anyone notices :)
* mpt_ reports another Yelp bug
<mdke> mpt_: well, the drawback is that you will have whatever was contained in the second level section in a first level section. It may get chunked differently
<mpt_> mdke, there was nothing else in the first level section
<mpt_> add-applications.xml, line 62 or thereabouts
<mpt_> <sect1...><sect2...> ... </sect2></sect1>
<mdke> mpt_: the apt section?
<mpt_> yes
<mdke> apt is only one type of command line packaging managing, so it kinda makes sense to keep the <sect2> in case we find time to document others, which we probably should
<mpt_> I know have <sect1 id="apt"...><title>Command-Line Package Management with <application>apt</application></title>
<mpt_> s/know/now/
<mpt_> If the others are documented it will take about 20 seconds to add it back in
<mpt_> until then, it looks weird :-)
<mdke> how about adding a placeholder for aptitude, and an introduction to give the sect1 some context?
<mpt_> because I don't know anything about aptitude :-D
<mpt_> (though I have occasionally followed recipes that included it)
<mdke> enough to add a section title though right?
<mpt_> If we had a section for aptitude, it should be a <sect1> anyway
<mpt_> After all, we don't have <sect1>Graphical package managers <sect2>Add/Remove Programs</sect2> <sect2>Synaptic</sect2> </sect1>, do we
<mpt_> If there were more than a dozen package managers (perish the thought!), we might need to start categorizing them
<mpt_> ahhhhh, that's beautiful
<mpt_> Section 2.5.2 tells you to install use .rpm files
<mpt_> step 1: "Install the alien program (Chapter 2 - Adding, Removing and Updating Applications)"
<mpt_> For ten points, what's wrong with this picture? :-)
<mpt_> ("tells you to install use" -> "tells you how to install" - my fingers aren't behaving tonight)
<mdke> what's wrong with it?
<mpt_> it's referring you to chapter 2
<mpt_> but you're already in chapter 2!
<mdke> ah
<mpt_> and the only way to use alien is with the command line
<mpt_> so there's no point in considering the possibility that you might want to install alien with a graphical package manager
<mpt_> that's just delaying the inevitable :-)
<mdke> mpt_: true, although thats just our standard wording for installing applications, which is intended to be package-manager-non-specific
<mpt_> mdke, I realize that, it was just inappropriate here
<mpt_> hmm
<mpt_> mdke, when I choose "File" -> "About This Document" in the Ubuntu Desktop Guide I get an error
<jjesse> is that the fault of yelp?
<mpt_> C> grep x-yelp-titlepage *
<mpt_> C>
<mpt_> no, looks like it's the Guide's fault
<mpt_> hmm, I tried changing <legalnotice id="Credits-And-License"> to <legalnotice id="x-yelp-titlepage">, and that stops the error, but it doesn't show that section
<mpt_> how *do* you see that list of contributors? it's not in the ToC that I can see
<mdke> mpt_: I don't get the error
<mdke> works fine
<mpt_> You get the list of contributors, mdke?
<mdke> yes
<mpt_> and you don't get the script errors
<mpt_> hmmm, something messed up on my system
<mdke> either from file->About this document, or from clicking About This Document in the bottom left of the contents page for the guide
<mpt_> in the latest svn version?
<mdke> no, in the version installed on my system
<mdke> works on the svn version too
<mdke> although they are probably identical :)
<mpt_> mdke, does the version you have include id="x-yelp-titlepage" anywhere?
<mdke> mpt_: no, that is all meta stuff generated by yelp
<mpt_> hrmmm
<mdke> it's the <bookinfo> bit that is "About this document", broadly speaking
<mpt_> Yelp 2.14.2?
<mdke> mpt_: yes
<mpt_> mysteriouser and mysteriouser
<mpt_> "click the burn Burn Data CD", oy
<mpt_> "... Rhythmbox Music Player, which looks similar to iTunes..."
<mpt_> "... Totem Movie Player which looks and functions similar [sic]  to Windows Media Player ..."
<mpt_> I smell an inferiority complex :-)
<mpt_> die, ye procedure steps that aren't part of the procedure
<mpt_> And again!
<mpt_> And no, you aren't a procedure either
<mpt_> Your steps are mutually exclusive!
<Burgwork> mpt_, who are you talking to?
<mpt_> I'm talking to config-system.xml
<jsgotangco> lol
* mpt_ wonders how to get a wordcount of a DocBook document
<LaserJock> convert to plain text and use wc ? :-)
<mpt_> convert to plain text how?
<LaserJock> isn't there some docbook2x or something
<jsgotangco> gnome-doc-utils
<jsgotangco> debiandoc2dbxml
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. i swear i convereted to text, just dont remmber how
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: ^^
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: docbook-utils perhaps
<Kamping_Kaiser> maybe *shrugs*
* Kamping_Kaiser has a laptop with dying hdd on his hands, hes not worring about docbook atm :)
<jsgotangco> with its insane amount of deps
<Kamping_Kaiser> wow, thats got a 2html thing *tries it out*
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco, you installed it recently?
<jsgotangco> its always part of my arsenal
<Kamping_Kaiser> should i expect it to throw lots of numbers onto the screen during install?
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. htey all say ok, so i suppose its fine
<jsgotangco> expect around 30MB+ of deps
<mpt_> No, you're not part of that procedure, stand still while I confiscate your <step></step> tags
<mpt_> <step><para>To configure your layouts, buy a La-Z-Boy.</para></step>
* LaserJock nervously works hoping mpt forgets about the packaging guide ;-)
<nixternal> it seems as if you cannot add a watermark image as a table background..is this shut off in the wiki, or am i missing something
<mpt_> nixternal, ||<tablestyle="background-image: url('whatever');"> ?
* nixternal tries that
<mpt_> "Some [wireless]  cards may not work automatically with Ubuntu. If this is the case, please look at the Wireless Troubleshooting Guide on the Ubuntu Wiki..."
<mpt_> oooooh, that's evil
* LaserJock can also tell he is not a writer
<mpt_> it's not the writing
<mpt_> it's that it's referring you to a page that's on the Internet :-(
<mpt_> That page will need to be copied from the wiki into the help
<nixternal> mpt...don't ask me..but the way i was doing it, all of a sudden worked ;)
<nixternal> ||<style="text-align: left; background: white url(/here/here?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu.png) no-repeat bottom right"> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=TableOfContents ||
<nixternal> that works
<mpt_> That's what I wrote, just using the shortcut propertie
<mpt_> propertY! Y!
<mpt_> nixternal, more interestingly, why are you linking from (presumably) an Ubuntu-related wiki to a failing search on Wikipedia?
<nixternal> mpt...konversation did that
<nixternal> i put in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=TableOfContents
<nixternal> wow
<nixternal> that is stupid
<nixternal> i did http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Table``Of``Contents and that was displayed
<nixternal> omg
<mpt_> konversation ate your ``s?
<nixternal> it isn't linked..it is a TableOfContents, but when i do [[ ] ]  it links to wiki
<mpt_> So you write "TableOfContents" and Konversation says "oh, nixternal must be meaning to link to Wikipedia, even though Wikipedia hasn't used InterCaps since 2001"?
<nixternal> haha ya
<mpt_> oh! It's the [[ ] ]  it's interested in, not the InterCaps
<nixternal> that is an issue with konvo though...it only happens when i try to paste the table of contents wiki tab though
<mpt_> so, great for #wikipedia I guess
<nixternal> exactly
<nixternal> you know what..that would be a great feature when you do the [[ ] ]  that it links to our wiki
* nixternal hacks konvo
<nixternal> you got mooned
<mpt_> I noticed
<nixternal> im using the latest nightly build we are working on for edgy
<nixternal> i need to fix the mooning part...i think it doesn't work well with the CoC
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam
<nixternal> nice
<nixternal> that makes everything so much easier
<mpt_> "Search the databases at LinuxPrinting.org or check the Ubuntu Wiki's Printer page for possible information on your printer."
<nixternal> no more typing the full thing now...just [[ ] ]  and put the page i want to show in between
<mpt_> Translation: "Abandon all hope ye who enter here."
<nixternal> haha
<mpt_> oh, so THAT's where I see how much disk space I have left
<mpt_> System -> Administration -> Disks -> enter password -> Hard Disk -> Partitions
<mpt_> because clicking on a disk icon on the desktop and choosing File -> Get Info would be too easy
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> ewww, that sounds OSX-like :-)
* mpt_ cries a little
<mpt_> yes, that's the OS X method
<mpt_> the Windows method is File > Properties
<mpt_> much the same
<mpt_> well, My Computer -> select disk -> File -> Properties
<mpt_> "The Ubuntu community is comprised of developers, programmers, testers..." -- no it isn't, you can't be "comprised of" something
<nixternal> rofl
<nixternal> mpt_: everything alright?  what are you working on?
<mpt_> getting-started.xml
<nixternal> ahhh
<mpt_> which continues in the proud Ubuntu tradition of misspelling Red Hat
<nixternal> "The Ubuntu community is a collaboration of developers, programmers, testers....:
<nixternal> ;)
<mpt_> It's past my bedtime, can you tell?
<mpt_> But, at least it doesn't refer to the non-existent Ubuntu Manifesto any more! :-) :-)
<jsgotangco> me too
* jsgotangco thinks of the bed
<mpt_> jsgotangco, I think you'll find that doesn't work quite as well as lying in it
<jsgotangco> i actually had a bottle of coke an hour ago and it seems to be working well
<jeffsch> hmm... Webster's Ninth New Collegiate says this about "comprised of":
<jeffsch> <quote>
<jeffsch> Although it has been in use since the late 18th century, "comprised of" is still attacked as wrong.
<jeffsch> Why it has been singled out is not clear, but until comparitively recent times it was found chiefly in scientific or technical writing
<jeffsch> You should be aware, however, that if you use "comprised of" you may be subject to criticism for doing so, and you may want to choose a safer synonym such as "compose" or "make up".
<jeffsch> </quote>
<nixternal> nice point there jeffsch
* nixternal admits to using "comprised of" way to much in the past ;)
<jeffsch> it does sound bad
<jeffsch> but seems to be popular anyway
<Burgwork> comprised of sounds like food
<Burgwork> hmm, Ubuntu is People!
<mpt_> http://www.google.com/images?q=ubuntu+people
<jsgotangco> Ubuntu is also a line of food products if you ask JaneW
<jsgotangco> i see daniel's flower pic
<jsgotangco> heh
<mpt_> all righty, that's enough editing for one night
<jsgotangco> thats it bed looks exciting for me now
<mpt_> Why, has an attractive partner appeared in it?
<jsgotangco> she just noticed im still awake lol
<mdke> mpt_: I don't see a patch on the list >_<
<mpt_> mdke, it's included in my BCCed version
<mpt_> Maybe the mailing list stripped it? It's about 120 KB
* mpt_ waits for his copy of the mailing list version
<LaserJock> yeah, isn't there like a 50 KB limit on the ML
<mpt_> Where can I put it, then?
<LaserJock> well, ideally you would have broken it up into several patches I guess :-)
<LaserJock> do you have any webspace to put it on?
<mpt_> not right at the moment
<mpt_> pastebin? :-)
<LaserJock> you can email it to me and I'll put it up somewhere, how's that?
<mpt_> ok
<LaserJock> mantha @u.c
<mpt_> thanks
<LaserJock> np
<mpt_> LaserJock, sent
<LaserJock> mpt_: http://doc.ubuntu.com/~laserjock/diff-udg-1
<mpt_> thanks!
<LaserJock> mpt_: you might try diffing each file in the dir and then tarring them up for big changes like that
<mdke> mpt_: you should have a login there too actually...
<LaserJock> I thought of that too
<mpt_> LaserJock, .tgz, you mean?
<LaserJock> mpt_: yeah
<mpt_> It's the first time I've contributed, I haven't needed one before :-P
<LaserJock> we just need a way to make your monster diffs fit down the pipe ;-)
<mpt_> haha, the gzipped version is only 26 KB
<mpt_> I'll remember that next time...
<mdke> mpt_: for things like s/emphasis/quote, can you email the list about why you've done changes and such, so that we can ensure a consistent policy?
<mpt_> but now it's past 8am and really time for bed
<mdke> whoa
<mpt_> mdke, ok
<mpt_> I guess there are many "interesting" changes in there
<mdke> I'll take a look in detail later
<mpt_> (i.e. debatable)
<mpt_> <emphasis> seems to be like <i>, it's being overused a lot
<mpt_> g'night people
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> cya mpt_ 
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-08
<nixternal> a little OT, but i just found some of my first ever type of documentation.... SOP: Operations of the Mobile Fire Arms Range - United States Navy NAVSEAINST 8023.11 | CNETINST 1500.20C
<nixternal> completed 10 years ago
<rob> interesting, I've written several SOP's myself in the past
<nixternal> it is funny..i was an E4 then, low ranking, and I wrote the first ever SOP for such a situation..and it is still in effect to this day
<rob> heh
<rob> unchanged?
<nixternal> only thing that changed was the lead trap and cleaning it
<rob> ah, cool
<LaserJock> I helped write a Laser SOP for our lab, but that isn't as cool
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> that is way cooler 
<nixternal> LaserJock: sorry, but quit "humping the laser"
<nixternal> it had to be done
<LaserJock> yikes, not even a laser in sight
<LaserJock> except for the cd burner
<nixternal> haha
* nixternal don't even want to know
<Madpilot> hi all
<nixternal> hiya Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> any idea how to add an image like ubuntu-au did at https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-au
<nixternal> im trying to do one for ubuntu-chicago
<Madpilot> I think it's the "hackergotchi" link
<Madpilot> yeah, it is
<nixternal> hmm..i don't see where to do that with the team
<Madpilot> on my user page, it's one of the links halfway down the blue panel on the left
<nixternal> on the user page ya..but this is a team page
<Madpilot> I've no idea how team pages differ, not being a team admin myself
<Madpilot> you could always bug one of the .au team's admins and ask how they did it
<nixternal> thats what i am planning on next 
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> gah.bimberi
<nixternal> australians are running late tonight
* mpt__ rubs his eyes
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> heya mpt
<mpt> Good ... evening!
<Burgundavia> http://ubuntu.ca/Edubuntu-casestudy.png
<Burgundavia> thoughts?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: you got a lipsum generator somwhere?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, sure - let me find the URL for you
<Madpilot> http://www.lipsum.com/
<Madpilot> Nice front cover - where's the rest of it? ;)
<Burgundavia> it would be a single page
<Madpilot> ah, OK
<Madpilot> in that case, tuck "Case Study" up with the Edubuntu name/logo - that's the title of the thing, after all
<Burgundavia> ok, cut and paste is driving me nuts
<Burgundavia> for some reason, epiphany is not pasting to inkscape
<Madpilot> Inkscape has some known cut & paste bugs
<Burgundavia> grumble
<Burgundavia> grumble more as text importation fails to work
<Burgundavia> but scribus has as interface that is only marginally better than the gimps
<Burgundavia> in other words, far far inferior to that of inkscape
<Burgundavia> look at that image again
<Madpilot> nice
<Madpilot> is that TuxLab logo really as low-res as it seems in that screenshot?
<robotgeek> http://shiftingpixel.com/lightbox/ is the coolest greasemonkey extension
<Burgundavia> yes, yes it is
<Burgundavia> I grabbed it quickly
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, can you scrounge up an SVG TuxLab image, or at least a high-res one?
<Burgundavia> I will once, I write the actual text
<Burgundavia> I put it there merely for illustrative purposes
<Madpilot> good - the layout itself looks good, anyway
<Burgundavia> I did copy it from nearly every case study out there
<Burgundavia> back side is going to have text from that EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy thingy
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, random layout point: first paragraphs of sections don't need to be indented, generally
<Madpilot> so, Matt East challenged Michael Richter on -sounder to put up or shut up WRT the modem/getting online docs - wonder when we can expect Michael's first patch to the list? ;)
<mvirkkil> I'm putting up a newer work-in-progress version of the docbook->moinmoin converter: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/db2mm/
<mvirkkil> It only supports converting single articles or single chapters, graphics don't work yet etc.
<jsgotangco> i will check
<nixternal> nice work on that btw mvirkkil
<mvirkkil> nixternal: Thanks :)
<robitaille> is that new?  http://ubuntuos.com/   Never heard of them until tonight
<nixternal> robitaille: they have been up for about a month
<nixternal> they did a Riddell podcast
<nixternal> i don't approve of their site for one reason, i went on to check it out, and my daughter was on my lap, and their was a half naked woman and an a$$ in a g-string in the ad's up top
<nixternal> my daughter is 10 and probably caught worse on tv, but still
<nixternal> now they removed their ads
<Madpilot> nixternal, adblocking is a wonderful thing - I didn't even know there were banners on that site
<nixternal> there isn't any more..or i am ad blocking again
<robitaille> you should block ads in your browser.  I didn't even knew they had an ad on their page :)
<Madpilot> interesting read: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2006/07/06/rethinking-community-documentation.html
<nixternal> i just looked..it seems like they had enough complaints
<nixternal> that looks like a good read
<Madpilot> I've just bookmarked it to finish tomorrow - need sleep very soon here
<nixternal> me too
<mdke_> morning
<Burgundavia> morning mdke_
<jsgotangco> hello
<Fujitsu> Evening.
* mdke_ wonders why he gets so much spam encouraging him to be a better lover
<mdke_> someone is trying to tell me something :/
* Fujitsu wonders the same.
<Fujitsu> You cut off your tail! Self mutilation is not an option!
<mvirkkil> mdke: hi
<jsgotangco> thank you for using the ubuntu.com email spam service
<Fujitsu> Hahahahah
<mvirkkil> mdke: I "published" a version of the xslt:s with my additions. Still no support for graphics.
<mdke> jsgotangco: nod
<mdke> mvirkkil: right, nice
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'll need to test it and develop it a bit further, but over the next few days I won't have much time for it. So I thought I'd put a snapshot out for the time being.
<mvirkkil> it should map procedures to numberedlists, and variablelists to bulletlists
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: --^
<mdke> mvirkkil: I'll upload it to the repository if you send it to me
<mpt> yo yo yo
* Fujitsu wonders why somebody like mpt would be saying that.
<jsgotangco> mdke: dapper-commercial gets reflected if you have dapper-updates and app-install-data is refreshed
<jsgotangco> but yeah it wasn't clearly indicated
<jsgotangco> its relatively new and was under discussion in paris
<Burgundavia> mdke: I believe dapper-commercial is hosted on canonical servers, rather an Ubuntu ones (yes, there is not much difference)
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> but nonetheless you can't get into dapper-commercial if you don't have the appropriate app-install-data
<mdke> jsgotangco: only in gnome-app-install
<mdke> Burgundavia: quite interesting that article which disapproves...
<mdke> he has a point
<jsgotangco> mdke: you're supposed to use g-a-i by default
<mdke> jsgotangco: right, but no one does
<mdke> and not adding it to apt is a significant problem
* jsgotangco thinks its your issue not the majority of people
<Burgundavia> I agree with mdke
<mdke> dude, do you use gnome-app-install?
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpdateManagerEdgyRepo
<mdke> to install EVERYTHING?
<Burgundavia> not adding it to apt is a bizarre decision
<jsgotangco> mdke: i patch to g-a-i? duh!
<mdke> jsgotangco: so?
<jsgotangco> your point?
<mdke> jsgotangco: you can code on something and not use it to install things
<Burgundavia> ultimately, things like Opera are not really going to hurt Ubuntu
<crimsun> mdke: which article?
<mdke> especially given that you can't install everything in it
<jsgotangco> mdke: dude its not perfect but don't say it doesn't work
<mpt> eh
<mpt> Finally Opera shows up in g-a-i for me, but it's 8.5.1
<mpt> I thought it was supposed to be version 9 :-/
<mdke> crimsun: http://opensource.apress.com/article/44/opera-makes-ubuntu-sing-a-sad-song
<crimsun> thanks
<mdke> jsgotangco: I'm not saying it doesn't work
<mdke> I'm saying most people don't use it
<crimsun> 9.00-20060616.7  500 http://archive.canonical.com dapper-commercial/main Packages
<jsgotangco> so its a waste of developer resource
<mdke> jsgotangco: no, I'm simply saying there is little point adding opera to gnome-app-install, and not helping to include it in sources.list
<mdke> especially if the repo exists
<crimsun> you two are talking past each other
<jsgotangco> dude you're not SUPPOSED to put anything in your sources.list by hand if you're using g-a-i
<mdke> jsgotangco: you're intentionally missing my point, which is that loads of people don't use g-a-i
<jsgotangco> give me a stat
<mpt> >1 graphical package management program => madness
<jsgotangco> im not missing the point
<mdke> me, Burgundavia, mpt, crimsun 
<mdke> right?
* jsgotangco gives up
<mpt> I used g-a-i to install a couple of games
<mdke> me too
<Burgundavia> same as well
<mpt> because using synaptic to find games is awful
<Burgundavia> I checked it out to see opera
<crimsun> jsgotangco: he's not arguing that g-a-i is or isn't the proper way; he's lamenting a particularly common use case
<crimsun> (hence you two talking past each other)
<jsgotangco> sorry language barrier coming, i didnt understand what it meant
<crimsun> both of your concerns are valid, but you're addressing different things :)
<Burgundavia> we all agree that gai is the preferred method, however users have different ideas
<Burgundavia> hence mdke's concern about opera only being easily available via gai
<mdke> right
<jsgotangco> app-data-install has all that data and opera wasn't there in the first place if it was, it should have been made easy
<jsgotangco> hence a dapper-update was made on the said package
<Burgundavia> but those who don't use gai have an issue
<Burgundavia> there is no other graphical way to add it to your sources.list
<mdke> jsgotangco: the repository exists (apparently), so it can be added to sources.list and made available in _other_ package managers too
<jsgotangco> probably on purpose? i dunno, ask mdz he's the one who uploaded an updated app-install-data
<crimsun> (this is a case where Debian pedigree can actually be a "detriment", since people tend to muck with sources.list regardless)
<Burgundavia> and mucking with sources.list is known source of pain
<mdke> it could easily have been added to software-properties
<jsgotangco> feel free to comment on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpdateManagerEdgyRepo
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's up at http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/db2mm/db2mm-0.4/, I don't have access to anything except a browser and IRC at the moment.
<jsgotangco> we made the mockup with a UI specialist
<crimsun> I'm pretty guilty of it myself; I say "add the universe repo" et al.
<rob> heh, I muck with it all the time, but then I don't use gai at all
<jsgotangco> its already in the dev tree
<mvirkkil> mdke: I was more like hoping to get some feedback on what you guys would still want to see implemented.
<mpt> mvirkkil, implemented for what? (sorry for clowning in halfway through the conversation)
<jsgotangco> hmm omnis studio is also in app-install-data-commercial
<mdke> mvirkkil: that's great, I'll download it thanks
<mdke> mpt: mvirkkil is working in the SOC moin<->docbook tools
<mdke> in/on
<mpt> oh, nothing to do with g-a-i then :-)
* mpt can't really comment, he doesn't know DocBook that well
<mdke> mvirkkil: do you want to tar it up for me? :)
<mpt> I reported a bug on the Yelp style sheets yesterday saying "<varname> should be in italics, we're having to use <emphasis> instead", and got a reply back within a couple of hours saying "no, you should be using <replaceable>"
<mdke> for what?
<mpt> for things like <screen>apt-get install <replaceable>package-name</replaceable></screen>
<mvirkkil> mdke: As I said, can't at the moment :/
<mdke> mvirkkil: oh yeah. sorry
<mvirkkil> mdke: I just put it up before I left home.
<mpt> http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/replaceable.html
<mdke> mpt: got it
<jsgotangco> interesting
<mdke> mvirkkil: i'll put it at http://doc.ubuntu.com/~matt
<mdke> now that I've found out public_html is enabled on that server >_<
<jsgotangco> is that the svn server?
<mdke> no, that's our server
<mdke> mvirkkil: uploaded
* jsgotangco lost his access to it already
<mvirkkil> mpt: Any preferance what moin markup you want to have it as? 
<mpt> mvirkkil, have what as?
<mdke> mvirkkil: however it is with the nwalsh stylesheets is likely to be a good default
<mpt> oh, various DocBook elements?
<mpt> well, DocBook -> Moin will be lossy because DocBook is semantic while Moin is presentational
<mvirkkil> mpt: yeah.
<mdke> mpt: you can assume mvirkkil knows quite a lot about that sort of thing
<mpt> :-)
<mvirkkil> mpt: When I'm going from moin->docbook I'm doing a bit of trickery, to get some extra information.
<mpt> mdke, if you've had a chance to look at my patch, how should I continue? Carry on with the other sections, or am I doing several things wrong?
<mvirkkil> mpt: Or at least I'm planning to check if the first row of a table has all the texts bolded, and make it a heading row in docbook, etc.
<mpt> mvirkkil, nifty!
<mvirkkil> mpt: But now I'm focusing on basic functionality.
<mpt> mvirkkil, and `foo` on a line by itself is probably <screen></screen> ...
<mdke> mpt: I haven't yet. But I'd like to talk about any changes to conventions of using different tags and so on on the list if possible.
<mvirkkil> mpt: well moin already has {{{ for codeblocks.
<mpt> sure
<mdke> we need to develop consistency and include some things like that in the styleguide
<mvirkkil> mpt: But for example {{{#python will get mapped in to a programlisting, etc.
<mpt> mvirkkil, true, but many are just a single line
* mdke goes for a shower
<mvirkkil> mpt: If its something that needs to be inline {{{hello}}} it gets mapped to code, at the moment.
<mpt> mdke, I think the biggest issue is what structure we should be moving towards for a unified help
<mvirkkil> mpt: If it's not inline, it gets mapped to screen or programlisting.
<mpt> whether the Desktop Guide should embrace and extend everything, or have top-level documents called things like "Music & Media" and "Setting up a server"
<mvirkkil> One of the niftier parts of the whole conversion, is that you can make structurally complex tables using the wikisyntax. Like cells spanning several columns, and/or rows. Alignment etc also works.
<mpt> s/have/the various documents should be split into/
<Fujitsu> mpt, you forgot the extinguish part.
* mpt extinguishes Fujitsu 
<Fujitsu> :O
<Fujitsu> mpt is Microsoft!
<mpt> :-(
<Fujitsu> If you embrace, extend and extinguish, that's the only possibility!
* mpt embraces Fujitsu
<mpt> I'll leave the extending to the spammers
<Fujitsu> Bwahahaha.
<mpt> Apple does a fair bit of embracing and extending too
<Fujitsu> Yeah, but they don't extinguish too much.
<mpt> Audion, Watson, Internet Explorer for Mac, Konfabulator
<mpt> four examples that come to mind
<jsgotangco> going to the mall bbl
<mpt> though Internet Explorer for Mac is more to do with Microsoft taking their ball and going home
<mpt> Watson is the most odious example, because Sherlock has been utterly neglected ever since
<mdke> mpt: sure, that's a separate issue, we definitely need to get that sorted out quickly if it's an option for edgy
<mdke> mpt: re the tag changes, if you could summarise the changes you've done and post to the list, that would be really helpful
<mpt> ok
<mdke> maybe include some at DocumentationTeam/DocbookTags
<mdke> i have to disappear for a bit now, see you later
<mpt> ok
<Kamping_Kaiser> does ubuntu have any info on setting up nat/other ip forwarding? i'm trawling around trying to find info, so if not i'm willing to try and start a page
<mpt> mdke, sent
<mpt> http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/41728
<smitten> Hello.
<smitten> I would like feedback on #337584 in the GNOME bugzilla..  It is an interface change to Yelp (for the better I hope).  Please respond on the bug or on the mailing list gnome-doc-devel-list@gnome.org
<smitten> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-09
<Plug> Hmm.
<Plug> Trying to follow the packaging guide on using pbuilder.
<Plug> It's a bit lacking.  Seems like it was tacked on without much forethought, as it's not really used throughout the document
<Plug> also, suggesting source, dh_make and cdbs - can we pick one and use it throughout?
<rob> its important to know all methods imo
<rob> but yes, the guide needs lots of love
<Plug> perhaps as appendices
<Plug> I'm having a go at some packaging using it now
<Plug> I'll be happy to do a spot of editing at the end
<rob> be aware if your setting up a chroot that there is a problem with the locales section
<rob> you need to also install language-pack-(some country code) to set them up correctly
<nixternal> if you want the best input on the packaging guide, crimsun will be the one on that...he knows every inch of packaging
<rob> yeah
<nixternal> pbuilder and dh_make do the same thing, but dh_make is for packages that haven't been debianized...and pbuilder is
<rob> I'd really like to see all the motu guys give it a once over and make suggestions, if they can find the time
<nixternal> i followed the packaging guide and had no problem what so ever...it gives you everything you need to know in order to understand packaging and get going
<Plug> I'm going to have debianize the package myself, make sure I get the deps right
<Plug> _then_ build under pbuilder
<Plug> so I have to install the -dev packages twice
<Plug> so what I really want is a chroot, I guess
<rob> yes, but I found myself having to seek addtional information after reading the packaging guide for a few things
<rob> its all on the wiki if you look though
<nixternal> that is what #ubuntu-motu is for..plus half the time crimsun ansered my questions in a matter of seconds
<nixternal> hiya Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> i am having one heck of a time trying to get a ubuntu-list setup for the Chicago LoCo team...nobody replies to me ;(
<LaserJock> nixternal: dh_make and pbuilder don't do the same thing at all ;-)
<LaserJock> Plug: and if you want to suggest things for the Packaging Guide email the ubuntu-doc list and I'll look into it
<nixternal> well..i did say that wrong...you run dh_make prior to pbuilder
<Plug> LaserJock: I'll be in touch, thanks
<nixternal> dh_make is a debianizer script, and pbuilder is the package builder
<mdke> nixternal_: you mailed mailman@lists?
<Burgundavia> nixternal_: the person you need to speak with is jdub
<mdke> mpt: here?
<mpt> mdke, vaguely
<mdke> mpt: just looking over your patch, is good stuff.
<mpt> I'll be paying more attention in 20min or so
<mpt> cool
<mdke> there are a few minor things I've noticed, and one or two things I think should be discussed as a team
<mdke> the language changes are all nice
<mpt> ok, back
<mpt> I probably made dozens of mistakes, I wasn't entirely conscious at the time :-)
<crimsun> impressive for only partly conscious.
<mdke> mpt: has the menu entry for alacarte changed in edgy?
<mpt> No, I'm using Dapper, and I've never seen it called "A La Carte"
<mdke> mpt: look in the menu
<mpt> I did, before changing it
<mdke> what's the menu entry?
<mdke> on my system it is "Alacarte Menu Editor"
<mpt_> grrr
<mpt_> mdke: <mpt> "Applications Menu Editor"
<mdke> how odd
<mpt_> want a screenshot? :-)
<mdke> why is it different on my system?
<mdke> no, i believe you
<mdke> well, if that is the default menu entry, it's certainly an improvement
<mdke> but it's not like that on my system, for some reason
<mpt__> Mine's an upgrade from 5.10, not a fresh install, if that makes any difference
<mdke> me too, iirc
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> mpt_: the only serious thing was removing much of the preface - I agree that is a good idea if this is supposed to be on-screen help, although if it remains a book we'll want to put it back, I think
* mpt__ growls at mpt and mpt_
* mdke hands mpt__ /msg nickserv ghost mpt password
<mpt__> mdke, yes, maybe there should be a divergence
<mpt> whee
* mdke bbl
<mpt> Possibly the on-screen help would be a clean subset (on the paragraph level) of the books, but possibly not
<mpt> hmmmmm
<mpt> Where should documents about the development of the help go? wiki.ubuntu.com, or help.ubuntu.com? :-)
<mdke> mpt: like a spec? On wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> preferably under DocumentationTeam/
<mdke> mpt__: is "Disks Manager" another menu entry that I don't have?
<Burgundavia> mdke: system--admin--disks
<mdke> Burgundavia: that's what I have too
<mdke> mpt__: why "Disks Manager"? 
<mdke> ah, I see, that's what it's called once you open it, fine
<melodie> bonjour
<mpt_> kia ora
<mdke> mpt_: ok, I've replied on the list, have to go now
<mpt_> thanks mdke
<mdke> thank _you_
* mdke afk
<melodie> hello mdke, 
<melodie> mdke what about doing a '/back' to appear present ? :D
<melodie> mdke, it seems you have to go, I was coming to question you : when are you back ?
<mpt_> mdke, maybe you installed A La Carte yourself before ubuntu-desktop did?
<mpt_> that way the original menu entry wouldn't have been overwritten
<dsas> mpt_: I thought it got changed from "applications menu editor" when it got the ability to edit the "system" menu too. I could be completely wrong though.
<mpt_> I have an unmodified test account, where instead of being Applications > Accessories > Applications Menu Editor, it's Applications > System Tools > Applications Menu Editor
<mpt_> hmmm, that's probably an old account
* mpt_ makes a new one
<mpt_> holy crap
<mpt_> I get an ugly theme, dozens of error alerts, and "Computer" and "Trash" icons on my desktop
<mpt_> and no panels
<mpt_> grrrrrrreat
<mpt_> How do I log out without any panels? :-/
* mpt_ resorted to Ctrl+Alt+Backspace
<dsas> drop to a tty and kill the other session
<dsas> or that.
<mpt_> there is no tty
* mpt_ remembers his CompSci prefs talking about "glass ttys" and wondering what decade they started using computers
<mpt_> er, profs
<mpt_> whoo
<mpt_> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=68663&action=view
<mpt_> mdke, updated patch sent
* mpt_ wonders how anyone can stand to use Evolution :-(
<mdke> mpt_: ok, thanks
<mdke> I moved to thunderbird myself
<mpt_> Thunderbird's ok, except for composing messages
<mpt_> Evolution's ok for composing messages, except for handling quoted text, but it's annoying for everything else
<mdke> I quite like evolution's quote handling
<mdke> I like when you cut a line in half in a quote and it keeps the right symbol, unlike TB
<mpt_> yes, but >s still disappear when I get too close to them
<mpt_> and there's no keyboard combo for quoting/dequoting
<mpt_> hmm, maybe nobody's ever reported that ...
<mdke> the thing that made me move away from evolution is that almost none of the actions I constantly use for threaded messages work properly
<mdke> collapse all threads, keyboard combos for expanding single thread, etc etc
<mpt_> Not understanding the concept of a Trash folder is a deal-breaker for me, too
<mdke> heh, ctrl S not saving in draft annots me too
<mdke> annoys*
<mpt_> oh yeah
<mpt_> I know, let's whine about mail clients :-)
* mdke whines
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hello
<mdke> mpt_: I've applied your patch now, and replied on the list. I'm off for lunch
<mdke> thanks for that
<mpt_> thanks mdke
<jrib> Does anyone know what happened to hardware support lists?  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SupportedHardware links to a page that no longer exists and I can't seem to find the lists on my own
<mdke_> jrib: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport
<jjesse> monring :)
<mdke_> hi jjesse 
<jrib> mdke_: hmm, thanks.  How come the title search doesn't turn that up?  Does it only search things under huc/community?
<mdke_> jrib: yes
<jrib> mdke_: and of course my second question is what is the right way to fix the link on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SupportedHardware? :)
<mdke_> jrib: refresh the page, and see what I did.
<jrib> mdke_: k, while reading https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation it has that same hardware link that's broken.  Is it possible to setup a redirect or does that just create clutter and I should just correct this page too like you did the one before?
<mdke_> jrib: I think we should fix the link to point to the other wiki. But it might be worth doing a redirect if there are lots of those broken links, let's see
<mdke_> no, there aren't many such links
<jrib> mdke_: ok, I'll take care of this one
<mdke_> thanks
<linuxmonkey> should we add the commercial repo's in the repo's howto?
<Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: probably
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-02
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<Admiral_Chicago_> win 5
<Admiral_Chicago_> err
<Admiral_Chicago_> jjesse: when will you be in chicago again
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago: looks like the 4th week of july
<Admiral_Chicago> awesome
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll be in town then
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
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<ian_brasil> hi
<fijam> hello
<ian_brasil> does anyone have the old make file to create html from the server guide?
<ian_brasil> hfijam:hi
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-03
<ubotu> New bug: #123645 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: faulty string (#65) in Network" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/123645
<ubotu> New bug: #123648 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty strings (114) in Games" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/123648
<jjesse> nixternal: are you stealing my bugs?
<jjesse> bug 123648
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 123648 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty strings (114) in Games" [Undecided,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/123648
<jjesse> :)
<[Tiju4n0ni] > Hello
<[Tiju4n0ni] > alguien habla espaol
<[Tiju4n0ni] > who speak spanish?
<[Tiju4n0ni] > i wrote documentation by Ubuntu
<mpt> [Tiju4n0ni] , maybe <https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-es-locos> is a useful place to start
<[Tiju4n0ni] > i'm member the  Argentina LoCo Team
<mpt> hmm, or maybe not
<[Tiju4n0ni] > and i am register in lauchpad
<mpt> ok
<mpt> Do you know English well enough to translate English docs into Spanish?
<[Tiju4n0ni] > mmmmm no mouch
<mpt> ok
<[Tiju4n0ni] > i can write documents in spanish
<mpt> How about <https://launchpad.net/~lsm>
<[Tiju4n0ni] > ok thanks mpt
<mpt> you're welcome, have fun :-)
<[Tiju4n0ni] > :)
<mdke_> hi everyone
<nixternal> howdy mdke!
<nixternal> so are you married now?
<mdke> nixternal: yes
<nixternal> CONGRATULATIONS!
<mdke> thanks :)
<nixternal> so how was everything?
* nixternal waits for a blog post with pics!
<mdke> perfect. Weather lovely, setting spectacular, food awesome
<mdke> I haven't got any pics myself, but no doubt will be collecting them soon
<nixternal> hey, as long as the food was awesome ;p
<nixternal> good to hear though, glad everything fell into place perfectly like that
<nixternal> it makes the big day that much more enjoyable
<mdke> bride turned up too
<mdke> which was the key
<nixternal> hehe, that is important
<nixternal> otherwise we could have had the Italian/British version of the Wedding Singer, but it could have been the "Ubuntu Man" :)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> bbiab
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-04
<ubotu> New bug: #123963 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Ubuntu 7.04 documentation updates have not been done" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/123963
<fijam> could someone explain me how .xml files in svn trunk actually differ from the final html files? And is yelp supposed to read .xml files or the output files? The wiki is a bit unclear on this.
<fijam> btw, I intend to work on xubuntu documentation.
<Susana> hi, are there plans to make the documentation for 7.04 available in pdf version?
<Susana> i'd also like to know about translations, any plans for when they'll be available?
* [Tiju4n0]  ESCUCHO: Tiesto - Adagio for strings - [Amarok] 
<ubotu> New bug: #124042 in ubuntu-doc "Invalid Link in System Documentation." [Undecided,Invalid]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/124042
<tck> anyone here?
<nixternal> tck: how can I help?
<tck> its ok, was wondering wether to file a bug
<tck> well not really a bug, more an update in docs
<nixternal> cool, thanks for filing it :)
<ubotu> New bug: #124051 in ubuntu-doc "Update Pic of Yelp Help Browser Window" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/124051
<tck> nixternal, that bug there 124051 was the one
<tck> is Ubuntu documentation by defauly using Brittish English or American English ?
<tck> *default
<jjesse> tck: american english i think
<pyros_pyrotica> In practice, that's what I have seen.
<tck> ok thx
<tck> i think its a mixture in Yelp, they use customise (British English) rather than customize (American English)
<jjesse> tck: sorry been out for awlk but some of the documents in yelp are from the upstream (gnome docs) and some are ubuntu docs
<tck> jjesse, so was i, walking the beasts :P
<jjesse> afk making dinner
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-05
<ubotu> New bug: #124094 in ubuntu-doc "Incorrect path to Lock Desktop." [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/124094
<tck> are users allowed update wiki documentation pages for future releases?
<tck> or is there a dedicated team only allowed to do that
<ubotu> New bug: #124100 in ubuntu-doc "Incorrect paths in 'Ending a Session'" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/124100
<ubotu> New bug: #124109 in ubuntu-doc "Rewrite of System menu under Main Menubar" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/124109
<mdke> Susana: no plans for pdf at the moment. Translations are already available for 7.04, we will be updating them soon
<Susana> mdke: can you point me to any documentation i can read on how to create a pdf from the translations of ubuntu-docs myself?
<Susana> some schools here want to make a change to ubuntu but translated docs are a must to give to the teachers in order to pursuade them to make the change
<mdke> Susana_: well, you can try. However, you have to do it on a document by document basis and there are tens of documents in ubuntu-docs
<mdke> Susana_: html is much easier than pdf.
<mdke> Susana_: anyway, you might get some help here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/BuildingDocumentation/PDF
<mdke> tck: wow, nice work on the website bugmail
<tck> just trying to tidy things up a bit ;)
<mdke> much needed
<tck> a few duplicates :)
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> tck: if you like, you can assign things like typos and broken links to me, it will be an incentive to fix them and easier for me to find easy bugs to close
<tck> ok will do
<tck> quick question, user pointed this out
<tck> Ubuntu is available for PC, 64-Bit and Mac architectures. CDs require at least 256 MB of RAM. Install requires at least 4 GB of disk space.
<tck> should that bem PC's require at least 256 mb ram?
<tck> *be
<rob> heh
<rob> I guess so :)
<tck> ok :)
<rob> but that may be referring to the install program on the cd, I'm not sure
<tck> yeah its a tricky one
<tck> the way its written, seems odd
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-06
<wakr> hello
<Admiral_Chicago> hey there fijam
<Admiral_Chicago> have you been able to understand anything of the documentation  / writing it?
<fijam> I do not quite get the rules of making the output html files out of docbook
<fijam> And is it e.g supposed to work in yelp, or should it just work in a browser
<fijam> I should have posted my questions to the mailing list I guess, but had no time/mind to do this. Next week I should finally have plenty of time.
<Admiral_Chicago> fijam: both
<Admiral_Chicago> it works with anything that can handle HTML
<fijam> 'cause as it is now, the links to chapters in yelp won't work
<fijam> neither for ubuntu, nor for xubuntu
<fijam> I am working on a clean svn pull, and I doubt if I was already able to screw something up.
<fijam> and since the links currently point to .html files, instead of .xml files, I bagan to thing that only html output matters. Apparently, I was wrong.
<fijam> Admiral_Chicago, how is it supposed to work then?
<Admiral_Chicago> fijam: give me  a second
<fijam> sure.
<Admiral_Chicago> fijam: right now, we had the docs working by pulling them in Firefox
<Admiral_Chicago> this is probably broken as we recently moved the Ubuntu docs to the Xubuntu folder
<Admiral_Chicago> i don't know if it is broken though
<fijam> Since documentation in 'ubuntu' behaves in the same way, I presume that is how it works. As far as I managed to figure it out, the process of making a patch boils down to editing the xml file, validating it, building it to a .html file, checking if it's right and finally using diff to make a patch. I'd be happy though if someone could say how wrong I am.
<fijam> To cut the long story short, my biggest concern is whether documentation should be usable in a docbook viewer or is just docbook format a tool of storing and managing the documentation under development.
<fijam> And if it's not, how the links should be fixed.
<fijam> does it make sense?
<Admiral_Chicago> fijam: all you need to do is svn diff > mypatchforsection.diff
<Admiral_Chicago> if it is a simple change
<Admiral_Chicago> of course validating is also important if you are committing. if not, it isn't (but it is a good practice to follow)
<fijam> certainly.
<Admiral_Chicago> the docbook format is really a syntax for writing. It should be used to write it but because we are using docbook / XML, we can easily export it to a HTML file
<Admiral_Chicago> fijam: to answer your question docbook/xml is both
<fijam> so we need to fix the links.
<Admiral_Chicago> ah i see your question
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll have to think about that, i think you're question is a non issue though
<fijam> what do you mean?
<Admiral_Chicago> afaik, this is all done when the docs are compiled (maybe by the MAKE file) which may not be how you are doing it
<fijam> Admiral_Chicago, output html files are fine. I just wonder what about raw docbook files.
<Admiral_Chicago> hmm dunno fijam
<fijam> I'll ask on the ML.
<Admiral_Chicago> okay
<Admiral_Chicago> good idea
<ian_brasil> how did you output html from the docbook??
<ian_brasil> the make files for me failed due to the move to the topic based help system
<ian_brasil> (I have copied the serverguide and changed it to mobileguide , edited the xml and validated using the script and yelp...i then built the pdf with xml2pdf but i am not sure about how to do html output
<ian_brasil> any ideas??
<ian_brasil> i built the pdf with dblatex not xml2pdf
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-07
<mpt> http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Gusty
<mpt> Wind power!
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#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-08
<iW0rK> hey
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-30
<Flannel> You know, help.ubuntu.com is annoying now that you can't go back and remain logged in
<Rocket2DMn> does anybody know if this bug would be assigned to us? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-pack-kde-nn-base/+bug/244125
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no, that's nothing to do with documentation
<mdke> Flannel: what do you mean?
<Flannel> mdke: You log in (after like six clicks) and then click a link in the wiki, youre still logged in, then hit back, and you get logged out
<Flannel> Its a rather horrible system, of what Ive seen so far.  Without any real benefit for the users.
<mdke> Flannel: you've found a bug. nothing more than that
<mdke> it's not 6 clicks anyway, it's two for me
<mdke> but the back button shouldn't log you out, you're right - it gives an error message
<Flannel> Log in / Register, then Login, then Continue, then sign in, and then I have to navigate back to the page I was viewing
<mdke> for me, I click "Log in" then "Sign in", then I'm back to the wiki. In the old system you also had to navigate back to the page you were viewing from UserPreferences
<mdke> anyway, I'll report your issue
<Flannel> What about the additional clicks then?  Where do they come from?
<mdke> Flannel: are you logged in to Launchpad with cookies enabled?
<Flannel> I am
<mdke> do you use regular Launchpad or edge.launchpad.net?
<Flannel> regular
<mdke> maybe it's been improved in edge
<Flannel> Well, Login/Register, Login, Continue are all at the wiki, only sign in is at launchpad
<mdke> what browser?
<Flannel> First is at the page itself, then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserPreferences?action=login then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserPreferences then https://login.launchpad.net/+openid
<Flannel> Firefox
<mdke> what happens if instead of clicking "Login" at the second step, you wait and don't click anything?
<Flannel> and then I end up, after hitting sign in, at htlp.ubuntu.com/community/?long string
<Flannel> Nothing
<Flannel> Should something happen there?  Ah yes.  onload.  No javascript
<mdke> i get forwarded immediately to Launchpad
<Flannel> Right.  Javascript off means no onload events
<Flannel> Well, I'm glad the navigation thing was just an error.  Since otherwise that'd get really annoying, really quickly.
<mdke> it looks like an error to me. The workaround is not to navigate back to the page you get after you first log in
<mdke> other navigation isn't affected
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, thanks, idk what i was thinking when i asked about that bug.  i think i just needed to get away from the screen for awhile
<mdke> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-01
<jabone> hi guys
<jabone> is there anyone even here?
<sommer> this channel is usally pretty slow
<jabone> haha its kind of looking like it :P
<sommer> usually evenings in north america and europe are more liveley
<jabone> yeah i kind of figured that
<jabone> i'm in canada so its a holiday here =)
<jabone> i was looking to start writing some documentation, but i think i found everything i needed on the website =)
<sommer> party!
<jabone> where are you at?
<sommer> north carolina :)
<jabone> oh nice...i have a few friends who live there...
<sommer> it's pretty cool, at least where I am in Winston-Salem, heh
<jabone> yeah ive heard its pretty nice
<wallan> jabone: what are you going to work on?
<wallan> just being nosey! i've only just started myself
<jabone> hrmm not too sure yet
<jabone> i'll volunteer...see what needs to be done most and do it!
<jabone> i'm here half to learn some new things and to help out =)
<wallan> fair enough!
<wallan> have you looked here? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo
<jabone> no i havent
<jabone> but now that i've checked it out
<jabone> looks like a great place to start!
<wallan> yeah, there's a few things on there
<charlie-tca> Has anyone figured out how to make the floating menu appear correctly using the modern theme in the help wiki after it was upgraded to Moin 1.6?
<charlie-tca> The TableOfContents is what I meant to say. It appears a little wrong at the present time.
<wallan> i have a question!
<wallan> does anyone have an opinion on the use of the word 'application', as opposed to 'software' or 'program'?
<wallan> 'software' and 'application' seem to get used fairly interchangeably on the wiki, yet their meanings are a bit different
<jabone> i look at an application as being a piece of software that perform a certain task...
<jabone> software can be used for anything that runs in addition to the os
<wallan> that's kind of what i thought - 'software' is a broader term
<wallan> 'applications' is used on the gnome main menu, of course, so users may recognise it from there
<wallan> i just started a RecommendedApplications page on the wiki
<jabone> good idea
<wallan> i had been wondering whether to call it RecommendedSoftware
<jabone> a firewall would be a good suggestion for most users :)
<jabone> i would go with software
<jabone> but thats my own personal opinion
<wallan> gah! too late!
<wallan> :)
<jabone> haha :)
<wallan> here's the new page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecommendedApplications
<wallan> it's still a little basic, but it's a start
<jabone> opera would be good under the internet section
<jabone> its my fave browser
<jabone> and firestarter
<wallan> add away! :)
<wallan> i'm fairly sure that i've seen some threads in the forums devoted to recommendations. it would be good to get some of that content onto the page
<wallan> can someone tell me how to get rid of the extra 'contents' text in the contents menu of this page?: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecommendedApplications
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-02
<l3on> Hi all
<l3on> Does someone give a quick look to "Banner" macros?
<tgm4883_laptop> Is there anyone that is willing to either help in writing documentation for the Ubuntu derivative Mythbuntu or help in mentoring the people that are currently writing it?
<tgm4883_laptop> Is there anyone that is willing to either help in writing documentation for the Ubuntu derivative Mythbuntu or help in mentoring the people that are currently writing it?  If this is the wrong place to ask this, just let me know
<cody-somerville> tgm4883_laptop, You're interested in writing docs for mythbuntu?
<tgm4883_laptop> cody-somerville, actually was hoping someone wanted another project to help either write the mythbuntu documentation or mentor the two people that are trying to write it now
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-03
<Rocket2DMn> would this be an ubuntu-doc issue - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/245129 (ignoring the fact that it was filed under nautilus)
<j1mc> hey Rocket2DMn - i'm not sure what the bug is about.
<j1mc> it seems like not enough information was provided in the report.  what makes you think it was an ubuntu-docs bug?
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, neither am i, thats why they requested more info
<Rocket2DMn> idk if its supposed to be accessing yelp or what
<Rocket2DMn> thats why i asked
<j1mc> ok - i guess wait until they provide more info.  ?
<Rocket2DMn> i suppose so, ill subscribe to it
<Rocket2DMn> lol if i can
<Rocket2DMn> ah there we go, the interface changed
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-04
<tgm4883_laptop> Is there anyone that is willing to either help in writing documentation for the Ubuntu derivative Mythbuntu or help in mentoring the people that are currently writing it?  If this is the wrong place to ask this, just let me know
<Rugby471> hi guys
<Rugby471> i am developing some documentation
<Rugby471> but i just have one question
<Rugby471> about the kde help viewer
<Rugby471> is the syntax to view a hlep file similiar to yelp
<Rugby471> ie. what is equivalent in kde to:
<Rugby471> yelp file.xml
<Rugby471> ?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-06
<l3on> Someone has read the WikiBanner macro that I sent to ubuntu-doc ML?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-29
<rakslice> There are a bunch of pages on the ubuntu doc wiki that have year-old messages saying not to edit because of a merge with the server guide
<rakslice> anyone know what's up with that?
<rakslice> er... ubuntu community doc wiki
<rakslice> e.g. ApacheMySQLPHP, ApacheTomcat5
<Saj0577> its on some of the email ones as well but not totally sure
<rakslice> the edits show up as having been made by a user at localhost =)
<Saj0577> who was in charge of the merging?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-30
<dsas> rakslice: sommer does a lot of the lead on the server guide. Probably worth asking him or mailing the list
<aytekin> hello
<adiroiban> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-01
<Meiki> Hello. Is there a .pdf format of the packaging guide?
<evanrmurphy> I directed Meiki here from #ubuntu-motu. I presume the packaging guide we're talking about is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete. Hope someone here can address the question.
<evanrmurphy> Meiki: Oh hey, search "ubuntu packaging pdf" in Google and check the first result: https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/pdf/ubuntu/C/packagingguide.pdf.
<evanrmurphy> I wonder how up-to-date it is... we've been editing the wiki guide as recently as today.
<Meiki> evanrmurphy: The one that I viewed before was a newer version, I have seen the above already
<Meiki> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-02
<nhandler> Meeting in 15 minutes, correct?
* nhandler changed the topic of #ubuntu-doc to: Ubuntu Documentation Team - visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam to contribute | Installation Guide Meeting July 2, 2009 at 21:00 UTC in #ubuntu-doc | Get involved! http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 | Channel log at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | Please observe the Ubuntu Code of Conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<DougieRichardson> nhandler: yes
 * DougieRichardson waves to philbull
 * philbull salutes DougieRichardson
<philbull> how's it going Dougie?
<nhandler> Hey philbull
<philbull> hey nhandler
<philbull> anyone else here for the IG team meeting?
<KelvinGardiner> hi
<DougieRichardson> not bad Phil and you
<missaugustina> I'm here for the mtg
<philbull> hey KelvinGardiner
<philbull> hey missaugustina
<philbull> DougieRichardson: not bad, looking forward to rocking some docs...
<DougieRichardson> philbull: indeed, looking forward to seeing how the new structure pans out.
<philbull> OK, I'll give it another couple of minutes
<DougieRichardson> cool. The Golden Child is on Sky anyway...
<philbull> OK then, shall we begin?
<nhandler> Sure
<badenochs_ghost> Yes
<missaugustina> Sure thing
<DougieRichardson> +1
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<philbull> OK, what has everyone been up to this week?
<philbull> No need to take it in turns
<badenochs_ghost> I've been starting to look into style guides.  Had a couple of brief email interactions with our writers.
<nhandler> We had an Ubuntu-Chicago meeting where we started discussing some possible educational sessions that might be a good opportunity to test out the guide and observe new installations
<missaugustina> Well, for the writers, I think we're still figuring out who is working on what.
<philbull> I ran a user test, to try and get a feel for them
<Avi1> Right, I sent some comments about the style guide (and I'm here, even though I said in teh Doodle I wasn't available... just really late)
<philbull> hey Avi1, glad you could make it
<nhandler> I also noticed that if we stick to the wiki spec, we will need to observe much more than a user installing ubuntu
<philbull> nhandler: how so?
<nhandler> philbull: A lot of the bullets are about things that would take place after the actual installation. This is why I think it might be better to parse the forums/LP/IRC to get a general feel for common issues than to observe live installations
<philbull> nhandler: I'd still like to observe a few installations
 * DougieRichardson brb - children playing up
<philbull> less than 10 should be enough
<nhandler> philbull: I agree, but installations alone will not be enough
<philbull> I agree.
<philbull> I meant to reply to your email earlier
<nhandler> Personally, I would love it if the writers could put together some bullets for each section before they begin writing
<nhandler> That way, I can test out the steps to see what real users think before they spend more time on it
<philbull> I think the testing job is going to be a big one
<badenochs_ghost> I have a help desk team who is pretty tech savvy but I've been amazed at what they do during an Ubuntu installation.
<missaugustina> I usually do an outline first, so no problem.
<KelvinGardiner> nhandler:  That sounds like a good idea
<philbull> I think that there are 3 distinct user testing phases:
<philbull> 1. Initial testing to see what the problems are
<philbull> 2. Testing during writing, to make sure we're on the right track
<Avi1> I do the same as missaugstina. I think the writers still need to divide up tasks, but we should probably work on one main outline.
<philbull> 3. Final testing, to make sure the whole guide works well
<philbull> Avi1: There's an outline on the blueprint, though it's not very detailed
<nhandler> Also, on an unrelated note, I saw the conversation that was going on with cjwatson
<philbull> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide
<Avi1> Right, a more detailed outline, based on the that
<philbull> nhandler: can we come to that next please?
<nhandler> Are we going to try and use the existing material at all?
<nhandler> Sure philbull
<philbull> OK, so what do people think of the existing outline?
<philbull> it's pretty high-level
<nhandler> For now, I think it is fine. although we will most likely be making changes to it as we get further along
<philbull> definitely
<badenochs_ghost> I thinks its a good start.  My only concern is with the wubi portion.  That seems like a possible separate or forked installation guide.
<missaugustina> I think it's a good starting point
<philbull> wubi is a concern of mine too
<philbull> I think it's necessary to cover it though, since a lot of users want to use it
<Avi1> It's definately a good start. Wubi should be a separate chapter/Heading level, along with all of the different types of installations.
<nhandler> philbull: But how deeply? Wubi installations will have a lot of different issues than a normal installation
<badenochs_ghost> nhandler:  I agree.
<Avi1> Non-techie users are going to see Wubi as a legitimate option along w/ other types
<nhandler> Avi1: We were asked not to mention some of the other types of installations by cjwatson
<philbull> nhandler: I'd like to see a basics-only treatment in the guide (as we will be doing with ubiquity)
<philbull> specific common problems can be addressed in the Troubleshooting section
<nhandler> philbull: So pretty much, explain what it is, and why they might want to use it?
<philbull> Well, I though that we might start out by outlining the different methods of installation and helping the user to decide which to use
<badenochs_ghost> philbull:  If I understand correctly, we are trying to help the new to Ubuntu user find the cleanest path to a working Ubuntu installation.
<philbull> badenochs_ghost: that's right
<badenochs_ghost> The paths would be wubi, clean install, or dual boot?
<philbull> I'm not interested in fully documenting the installation process
<philbull> badenochs_ghost: yes, that's pretty much it. Add-in "install from USB stick"
<missaugustina> Yeah,  my understanding is this is meant as a "quick start" guide
<philbull> missaugustina: It should be slightly more indepth than a quick start guide, but certainly not a full manual.
<philbull> I think we should set a target for how useful the guide should be
<philbull> perhaps, it should help 80% or so of users to get Ubuntu installed
<philbull> there are too many special cases to get 100% coverage
<nhandler> philbull: It would also be nice if this guide were somewhat short so that users could print out hard-copies
<badenochs_ghost> The level of detail will be difficult.  For instance, look at the number of users who aren't even sure how to burn the initial ISO.
<philbull> nhandler: yes, I'd love it if it was easy for people to give this out with Ubuntu CDs
<philbull> badenochs_ghost: it will, but that's what your job is about!
<Avi1> I think that's actually one of the most difficult things to describe. I previously wrote something on installation and that was one of the hardest parts I had (and didn't do it complete enough)
<philbull> These are good points Avi1 and badenochs_ghost
<philbull> What I'd like to encourage each of you to do is to grab a random Windows user
<philbull> and get them to install Ubuntu on a computer (helps if you have one which you don't mind breaking)
<badenochs_ghost> I can do that.
<philbull> It can be a real eye opener - you'd be amazed at the things that people struggle with
<missaugustina> I can also do that, I'll recruit my boyfriend ;D
<philbull> missaugustina: I recruited my girlfriend to test empathy a few days ago
<nhandler> I can recruit a few of the active forum members to help come up with a list of common problems during installation
<KelvinGardiner> philbull:  What do we want feedback on, will a virtual box install be ok?
<missaugustina> Are we doing this with Karmic or do we want to do this with the latest stable release?
<Avi1> I think the suggestion of going through the forum was very useful
<philbull> nhandler: excellent, but I must insist that you try and see a non-technical user trying to install Ubuntu
<nhandler> philbull: I will ;)
<missaugustina> I'm going to do a full computer, because sometimes BIOS settings can be a pain
<philbull> missaugustina: latest stable
<badenochs_ghost> missaugustina:  thats a good idea.
<philbull> KelvinGardiner: preferably a real computer, but use what you have ;)
<philbull> my idea is that you should just say to a user "OK, install Ubuntu"
<philbull> that's all you say to them
<badenochs_ghost> How non-technical?  Most people have not even installed an OS of any kind before since their computer usually come pre-installed.
<philbull> then you get to observe them finding how to download Ubuntu, how to burn an ISO, how to boot the CD....
<philbull> badenochs_ghost: it needs to be the kind of user we're aiming this guide at
<philbull> so, someone who's comfortable with maybe Word and IE/Firefox
<missaugustina> Really? I think most people can install an OS, anyone running windows has had to reinstall at least once
<nhandler> That isn't true missaugustina. I also think a lot of users would have a hard time figuring out how to boot from the CD (which might be difficult to explain in detail in a guide)
<badenochs_ghost> I used to support home users on the side.  None of my customers had ever installed the OS.  They were using the same install it came with.
<philbull> Guys, this is why I want you to see a non-techie struggle with installation
<badenochs_ghost> nhandler:  booting from a CD is an issue.  You are right.
<philbull> It can be really shocking what people don't understand
<Avi1> Single booting should be mostly like installing software. The hardest parts are multiple boots and making bootable CDs from ISO and booting from CD
<Avi1> I think that's where people will have the most difficulty with well-written instructions and a good guide. That's the more challenging part for users.
<badenochs_ghost> We'll want to do a Wubi install with a non-techie too
<missaugustina> Bootable CD depends on their burning software, can we really cover that in our guide?
<Avi1> but the rest won't be as challenging only if they have good instructions :)
<philbull> OK, it's up to nhandler what we test when he comes up with a formal testing programme
<badenochs_ghost> I think we'll need to pretty specific with the ISO burning.  Otherwise, we lose users before they even begin.
<philbull> this initial thing that I'm talking about is for your own personal enjoyment!
<philbull> (though we can certainly record the data and use it later)
<Avi1> That's part of the challenge w/ that. I think we may have to suggest downloading InfraRecorder or something since different people have different software
<nhandler> philbull: Personally, I think that we should begin the guide after they have booted from the live cd. That way, their personal computers and software are out of the equation (for the most part)
<badenochs_ghost> Avi1:  I agree.  We need to choose something.
<nhandler> badenochs_ghost: The issue with that is you don't know what OS (if any) they are coming from
<philbull> nhandler: I disagree. I know it's difficult to cover those things, but they're big stumbling blocks
<missaugustina> Avil: that makes sense. Provide instructions for one program and then provide links where they can get further info for others
<badenochs_ghost> phillbull:  Do you have that ISO statistic available that you showed me at WosCon?
<philbull> Like I said, we don't need 100% coverage, just ~80%
<philbull> So, we can forget Mac users (for the time being), for example
<nhandler> philbull: But we can't recommend ISO burning software and instructions for every OS. Also, all computers will boot from a CD slightly differently
<philbull> badenochs_ghost: sure, it's here (takes ages to load): https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageHits
<Avi1> Windows and Mac. I wouldn't worry about someone coming from Solaris or something :-)
<badenochs_ghost> nhandler:  I think ISO software can be targeted at Windows users.
<nhandler> So you only want to target Windows users switching to Ubuntu?
<philbull> nhandler: initially, yes
<philbull> they are our biggest user group. At least 80%
<philbull> We can add other OSes later
<nhandler> philbull: Just out of curiosity, where is that number from?
<philbull> nhandler: I made it up!
<philbull> But: if someone is switching from Linux, they are most likely more technically skilled
<missaugustina> Windows represents the largest market share for OS, so it makes sense to target it.
<philbull> Mac users are a much smaller proportion of non-techs than Windows users
<philbull> I know it seems like we're preferring one OS, but it's a practical decision
<philbull> BTW, PageHits just loaded. Look at the most popular item! We *need* to cover burning an ISO
<nhandler> Ok, but I would like to warn everyone up front, people will notice and comment on this (many of the comments will be negative in nature)
<badenochs_ghost> How do you eat an elephant?
<badenochs_ghost> One bit at a time.
<nhandler> :)
<badenochs_ghost> Eventually, we want to cover the other OSes, but this is good start.
<philbull> nhandler: that's my problem. Look at my job desc on the TeamRoles wiki page
<philbull> I'm more than willing to explain our decisions
<philbull> nhandler: that brings us nicely round to colin watson's comments
<philbull> Please see the LP spec whiteboard: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/karmic-installation-guide
<philbull> I think it's important that we get some decent user personas together, so we know who we're writing this guide for
<philbull> nhandler: that's another job for you I'm afraid!
<philbull> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personas
<missaugustina> I can help out with that.
<philbull> missaugustina: that would be great. Please get in touch with nhandler about it
<nhandler> Sure thing philbull. I was waiting to do a lot of this until after this meeting so that I would have a better idea about what the team was aiming to accomplish with the guide
<philbull> We *cannot* start writing without a set of decent personas
<philbull> We should set a goal for what the guide should accomplish for each user too
 * philbull is pleased with the progress of the meeting so far
<nhandler> philbull: Just so I have an idea, how are we planning on distributing this guide? Will it ship with Karmic?
<philbull> nhandler: I hope so. It will definitely be on help.ubuntu.com
<philbull> This is something for the editor and tech reviewer to work out though
<badenochs_ghost> kI'm paying attention.
<philbull> Once we have the personas, we can use those to inform our choice of distribution media
<nhandler> philbull: Depending on how we distribute the guide, the various Freezes in the Karmic release cycle might affect us
<badenochs_ghost> What is our timeline?
<philbull> True. There's no problem with help.ubuntu.com, but if we want to include on the CD we need to respect Feature Freeze
<philbull> badenochs_ghost: Documentation String Freeze
<philbull> October the 1st
<philbull> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule
<nhandler> We would also need to leave time to package it
<philbull> nhandler: true, but we can work on that as we go along
<philbull> we have ahathaway21, DougieRichardson and j1mc
<philbull> they can work on getting the infrastructure set up
<nhandler> 10 minute warning (if we are sticking to a 1 hour meeting)
<philbull> nhandler: thanks
<philbull> OK, last couple of things I want to discuss
<philbull> Style guide?
<badenochs_ghost> I've been looking at the  Gnome Style guide.  I just began digging in.   I am open to other suggestions.
<badenochs_ghost> I know it needs chosen soon.  Exactly when?
<philbull> badenochs_ghost: as soon as we have the style guide + personas, we can start the filling-out the outline and writing a few basic sections
<philbull> You can adopt the GNOME Style guide as a base and then add extensions/clarifications if you like
<philbull> it's up to you
<philbull> OK, cool
<badenochs_ghost> Excellent....I'll have time over out holiday to make the choice.  I should have an answer on Monday.
<philbull> OK, I'll recap in a sec
<philbull> any more issues?
<badenochs_ghost> Only personal...lol
<missaugustina> LOL
<philbull> heh
<missaugustina> when should writers divvy up the tasks?
<missaugustina> When we have persona + style guide info?
<philbull> missaugustina: it's up to you guys. Whenever you start writing!
<philbull> Personas + style guide are blockers for the writing to begin, so next 2 weeks would be great
<philbull> I'd rather they were done properly than quickly, though, so if you need more time...
<nhandler> I'll try my best to get the personas done in 2 weeks. How detailed do you want them to be?
<philbull> missaugustina: have you written user personas before?
<missaugustina> I think writers can start emailing and doing intitial research in the meantime.
<missaugustina> I have for Use cases.
<KelvinGardiner> missaugustina: +1
<philbull> OK, cool. nhandler, missaugustina has the training on this one
<philbull> so we should take her lead
<missaugustina> Mine were only a paragraph so I'll have to refer to other docs
<nhandler> philbull: No problem.
<missaugustina> The article you are referencing suggests personas are 1-2 pages, that seems a bit  excessive to me
<philbull> OK. Personas have to be reasonably detailed, but not excessively so
<nhandler> missaugustina: They also have an example on http://www.usability.gov/analyze/personas.html
<philbull> the aim of a persona is to help the writer empathise with the user's requirements
<philbull> you need to see the task through the eyes of your users
<philbull> this is why user testing is important too
<missaugustina> Right, makes sense.  I did "personas" when developing systems for end users, so it was focused specifically on data needs.
<philbull> OK guys, time is almost up, but I think we need another 5 mins
<missaugustina> Anyways so that's what my training is, so I'll work with nhandler and we'll flesh it out :)
<badenochs_ghost> phillbull:  can do
<philbull> missaugustina: awesome
<philbull> So, I'll recap now:
<nhandler> Thanks a lot for the help missaugustina
<philbull> Action items are:
<philbull> Everyone: Observe someone trying to install Ubuntu.
<philbull> DB and writers: Choose a style guide
<philbull> Nathan and Augustina: Write personas
<philbull> Nathan: collect data on problems user have with installation (user tests + sift through IRC/forums)
<philbull> did I forget anything?
<philbull> also, is everyone happy with what we've covered?
<nhandler> I'm happy
<badenochs_ghost> Yes on both accounts.
<nhandler> When are we going to meet next?
<philbull> I'm travelling between Jul-6 to Jul-13, so I won't be available until after then
<philbull> You guys are free to self-organise a meeting though
<philbull> (if you think you need/want one)
<philbull> Thanks for being here at such short notice by the way!
<badenochs_ghost> no problem
<missaugustina> NP, just glad we got to meet and get the ball rolling
<nhandler> So am I
<philbull> Aha, I remembered something:
<philbull> Please fill-out your info on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide/TeamRoles if you haven't already
<philbull> None of it is compulsory (if you're worried about privacy etc)
<badenochs_ghost> Its not a problem...I have so many identities, I can always lose one.
<philbull> I just thought, Avi1 and KelvinGardiner - apart from helping choose the style guide, what are you planning to work on?
<philbull> (over the next 2 weeks)
<Avi1> Not sure. Either look over some installation issues or try to work more on an outline.
<KelvinGardiner> It would be good if the writers can sort out which sections we are going to work on so we can to a bit of background work.
<philbull> Avi1: that would be great. Please pick an area of the outline to concentrate on if you do that, though
<philbull> KelvinGardiner: good idea
<KelvinGardiner> maybe the writers and DB can meet next week to do that?
<badenochs_ghost> I can do that.  I'll contact the writers and we'll set a time.
<KelvinGardiner> badenochs_ghost: OK
<philbull> Great. Please keep the logs from your meeting if possible.
<missaugustina> Sounds good to me, I'm not picky on what section of the outline I get :)
<philbull> OK, I think I should call an end to the meeting
<philbull> Thanks for coming everyone, I really appreciate the time you're putting in to this project
<Avi1> Thanks. For the Americans, have a great July 4 weekend and Independence Day.
<missaugustina> Thanks for organizing this, Phil.  It makes being involved a lot easier :D
<missaugustina> Thx Avil!
<badenochs_ghost> Avi1:  Thank you!
<nhandler> Just as a suggestion, it would be great if we were to use #ubuntu-meeting for future meetings
<philbull> I'm going to hang around for another half hour or so, so get in touch if you like
<philbull> nhandler: sure, we can do that. Is there any process I need to go through to reserve the channel?
<nhandler> philbull: Just check that it isn't reserved http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar and then reserve it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
<philbull> thanks, I'll do that next time
<nhandler> Here is a MootBot guide if you are interested in using that during the meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<Avi1> Alright, good night. I really need to go to sleep!
<badenochs_ghost> Where will the transcripts be posted?
<KelvinGardiner> I'm also going to turn in for the night. See you guys later.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-03
<nhandler> blacknred0: You can get them at irclogs.ubuntu.com
<BrunoXLambert> I've read the google document about wiki docs
<BrunoXLambert> I think it's a really good start
<BrunoXLambert> made me understand a lot, didn't have time to make the real test for now (actually writting in the wiki), but I'll keep you informed
<BrunoXLambert> (this was brough up in last meeting a week ago, sorry for being a little late, had a big week)
<StefanTM> hello, i'm new to linux... and i need some help...
<StefanTM> can somebody tell me how can i compile some app's from source ? i search but dont find a .deb package... for that ..
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-04
<nhandler> Anyone here know how fast is too fast for requesting pages from wiki.ubuntu.com? You get locked out if you request pages too fast
<drs305> Question about wiki formatting. Is there a way to quote a file but shrink the font size?  i.e. display the contents of /boot/grub/grub.cfg within {{{  }}} but use a smaller font to minimize the space.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-05
<drs305> Asked this earlier but didn't get a response. Anyone?
<drs305> Is there a way to quote a file but shrink the font size?  i.e. display the contents of /boot/grub/grub.cfg within {{{  }}} but use a smaller font to minimize the space.
<drs305> The `-  made it the font a little smaller but didn't reduce the size too much. Here is the wiki page on which I'd like to shrink teh grub.cfg contents:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-05
<zkriesse> mdke: are you available?
<zkriesse> HAPPY FOURTH!
<epic93> Hello.
<tyarusso> Can anyone recommend a good book for learning DocBook?
<j1mc> tyarusso: http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/
<tyarusso> ah, excellent
<j1mc> tyarusso: that book covers docbook v.5, where ubuntu docs are still on docbook v.4, but *most* of the syntax carries over.
<j1mc> tyarusso: this one covers docbook 4, which is what ubuntu uses: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html
<j1mc> the schema for docbook was completely rewritten from docbook 4 to docbook 5, but much of the basic syntax remains the same.
<j1mc> let us know if you have questions
<ddecator> so i was going to ask philbull, but since he's not here maybe someone else can help. i want to apply the "headers" used on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad to the other bugsquad pages since they look nicer. however, since they aren't real headers, that messes up the TOB. someone in #moin suggested i change the theme's css so headers appear that way. are we able/allowed to change the theme for ubuntu pages?
<j1mc> ddecator: what is a TOB?
<ddecator> j1mc: Table of Contents
<j1mc> ddecator: i'm a bit unclear on what you mean by the headers.  do you mean the "bugsquad" "todo list"... items toward the top?
<ddecator> j1mc: no, the "What is the Bug Squad?" "Contact Us!" "Activities" "Want to Join?"
<tyarusso> j1mc: It appears that the tools for working with it are still for DocBook 4 in Lucid as well.
<j1mc> ddecator: ok, i think i understand what you're looking to do now. i don't know if we can do it.  matthew east would probably know best.
<ddecator> j1mc: ok. i could probably find a way to manually create a table of contents, but then it'd have to be updated each time an area is added or removed. what's matthew east's nick?
<j1mc> tyarusso: yeah - ubuntu docs aren't really set up for docbook5 right now.  docbook5 is in the repositories, though.
<j1mc> ddecator: it is mdke
<ddecator> j1mc: thanks!
<tyarusso> j1mc: ah, so it is.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-06
<zkriesse> hello Gwaihir
<Gwaihir> hello zkriesse
<jenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/collaborationmeeting don't forget to attend the meeting
 * zkriesse will attempt to make it
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-08
<jenkins> collaboration meeting on saturday 10th 8pm utc, if you are coming please add yourself to the list. http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/collaborationmeeting , you can also add agenda items there.
<jenkins> If everyone can add the pros and cons for docbook or mallard as the content pool http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/prosandcons
<jenkins> collaboration meeting on saturday 10th 8pm utc, if you are coming please add yourself to the list. http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/collaborationmeeting , you can also add agenda items there. If everyone can add the pros and cons for docbook or mallard as the content pool http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/prosandcons
<popey> zkriesse: he may be on holiday
<zkriesse> yeah phil said that
<popey> well, he connects to irc from my server and I've not seen him online for at least a month or so
<zkriesse> oh wow
<agy> zkriesse: help.u.c> try noe?
<agy> *now
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> agy: Delete option is there now as well as the rename option
<agy> zkriesse: so it's good?
<zkriesse> yes
<agy> excellent
<zkriesse> Also, on the team wiki, when i try to save my user preferences, it tells me that, "This email already belongs to somebody else." but it does NOT do that on huc
<zkriesse> Any ideas on that one agy?
<agy> zkriesse: team wiki? wiki.u.c?
<zkriesse> The Ubuntu Team Wiki displays the error for the user preferences, the Community docs do not
<jenkins> collaboration meeting on saturday 10th 8pm utc, if you are coming please add yourself to the list. http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/collaborationmeeting , you can also add agenda items there. If everyone can add the pros and cons for docbook or mallard as the content pool http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/prosandcons
<xfact> Hello fellow Ubuntu members
<xfact> I think I have found a minor bug
<xfact> Any ideas how to submit it?
<xfact> In 10.04 at About Ubuntu,  some link addresses don't exits anymore, I think after redesigning the Ubuntu site, it happened I hope it will solve soon :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-09
<epic93> hello
<zkriesse> hello epic93
<zkriesse> welcome again
<mdke> jussi01: I think I've amended the entry message now
<jussi01> [09:56:44] [ChanServ] This channel is logged at irclogs.ubuntu.com. Use of this channel implies acceptance of the terms at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/TermsOfService
<jussi01> looks like it :)
<mdke> ok, good
<jussi01> mdke: would be good to add the ircc to the access list also, if you would be so kind.
<mdke> jussi01: do I need to add each individual or is there a group I can use?
<jussi01> mdke: /msg chanserv flags #ubuntu-doc UbuntuIrcCouncil +votsriRfA
<mdke> I'm not strong with irc admin I'm afraid
<jussi01> I make it easy :)
<mdke> done
<jussi01> thanks very much.
<mdke> np
<zaz> hello world
<zzzazzz> is there anyone that could modify a page from the ubuntu web donload page ?
<zzzazzz> a webmaster in some
<zzzazzz> i found a mistake
<zzzazzz> there : http://www.ubuntu.com/netbook/get-ubuntu/download
<zzzazzz> ohh, i found a webmaster@ubuntu.com i test that, ciao
<EgyParadox> If there is an issue concerning the documentation where exactly it should be reported?
<EgyParadox> concerning the official documentation
<trijntje_> Hi, are the maintainers of the wiki in this chanel?
<trijntje_> someone changed the links in this article to point to some comercial site: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/ShareEthernetConnectionThroughWireless
<zkriesse> trijntje_: hello
<zkriesse> trijntje_: what's the issue?
<trijntje_> zkriesse, someone changed the links in the article to some comercial site, instead of the troubleshooting section
<trijntje_> So I was hoping someon could revert it to an earlier state
<zkriesse> trijntje_: ok what section is this link
<trijntje_> "order essay" and "online resume writers"
<trijntje_> *not* the troubleshooting section, I read to fast
<zkriesse> ok lemme revert
<zkriesse> ok trijntje_ go take a look now and tell me how it is
<trijntje_> zkriesse, fixed, no more strange links
<trijntje_> Thanks a lot, i'm off to reboot and check if the article was right ;)
<jenkins> in case you have missed any of my other reminders, collaboration meeting on saturday 10th 8pm utc, if you are coming please add yourself to the list. http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/collaborationmeeting , you can also add agenda items there. If everyone can add the pros and cons for docbook or mallard as the content pool http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/prosandcons . Thanks :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-10
<phillw> hi, anyone in that has a black belt in wiki-fu?
<Kangarooo> ist this too old? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GrubHowto#GUI
<zkriesse> hey issyl0
<zkriesse> issyl0: Can you pm me in say, 20 minutes?
<issyl0> zkriesse: sure
<zkriesse> ok issyl0 i'm ready
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-11
<zkriesse> hello glatzor and synergetic
<synergetic> good morning, zkriesse
<synergetic> pretty quiet today
<zkriesse> yes it usually is at this hour
<zkriesse> most are either asleep or just waking
<zkriesse> not to mention trying to find the coffee
<zkriesse> synergetic: so what brings ya here
<synergetic> zkriesse: uhm... i had every intention of helping out writing/editing documentation, made it to the first meeting then got completely distracted by needing to find a job. so now i mostly just lurk around here.
<zkriesse> ah cool
<zkriesse> wiki page?
<synergetic> i got as far as making an account - never actually got around to writing/editing anything, sadly
<synergetic> wanted to work on the manual, actually
<zkriesse> #ubuntu-manual is the channel for that team
<synergetic> bit more self-contained
 * zkriesse is part of that 
<synergetic> yeah. i was in both of the channels at one point *checks* seems i've managed to remove my auto-join on this computer
<synergetic> there we go.
<synergetic> how about you zkriesse? what do you do around here?
<zkriesse> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/zkriesse
<zkriesse> that'll give you some insight into what i do
<synergetic> zkriesse: quite a bit, then. mostly i just evangelise around campus. just graduated, so no more students to evangelise to
<zkriesse> college?
<synergetic> ah, university in edinburgh
<zkriesse> edinbugh...where is that?
<zkriesse> sounds german
<synergetic> it's the capital of scotland
<synergetic> but i'm originally from the US
<zkriesse> oh you're Scottish?
<synergetic> but yeah, did a lot of work with the Edinburgh LUG and the Edinburgh Uni Computing Society
<zkriesse> nice
<zkriesse> sounds fun
<synergetic> definitely. but ran a couple install days, got my computer-illiterate family using it, figured i was well-versed enough in getting people started that working on the manual would be a piece of cake - i've got a pretty good idea of where people struggle in getting started. but yeah, haven't had a chance to get involved yet
<zkriesse> know how to use launchpad?
<synergetic> yep
<zkriesse> very cool
<synergetic> i think so. it's been ages since i've used it
<synergetic> i had one bug i'd filed... i think it got closed because they weren't able to replicate it. that's it for launchpad
<abhi_nav> hello
<abhi_nav> how to prevent wiki abuse?
<ikonia> what is your wiki page URL
<abhi_nav> ikonia, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/abhijit
<abhi_nav> ikonia, he now corrected it. but in future how to prevent it? he was experimenting with my wiki I dont want anyone to change it :(
<ikonia> I don't think there is any sort of protection, but you should be notified on change
<abhi_nav> ikonia, he chagned my name and colour of wiki
<ikonia> doesn't matter what he changed, my point still stands
<abhi_nav> ikonia, is there any action we can take against if someone abuse my wiki?
<ikonia> if you report it to the wiki paintainers they can take action against the user
<ikonia> "maintainers" that should read
<abhi_nav> ikonia, where to find wiki maintainers?
<ikonia> you're in the channel
<ikonia> abhi_nav: check the url's in the topic also
<abhi_nav> ikonia, ok thank you for yout time
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-04
<andrejz> Hello! I noticed a minor typo in the docs for natty. There is one space too much before "Banshee manual" in ubuntu-docs-musicvideophotos, string 157
<Atamira> you should email the documentation list just in case it gets missed in here
<andrejz> ok i will
<JCD> hi
<head_victim> Good morning
<JCD> I had a question about the new desktop guide for ubuntu?
<head_victim> Ask away, I may or may not know but someone else might be able to chip in :)
<JCD> ok :)
<JCD> Is there a french translation available is it still in the works?
<head_victim> In that case, can you link me to what you mean by desktop guide. It could be a number of things
<JCD> this: https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/ubuntu-help/index.html
<JCD> or when you start the help (yelp) app in ubuntu
<head_victim> Hang on a tic I'll have a poke around for you
<JCD> ok thanks
<head_victim> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/gnome-user-docs/+pots/gnome-user-docs-user-guide is where I was looking
<head_victim> It seems to suggest that it's pretty well translated already
<head_victim> I assume you have your locale and language set up right?
<JCD> both to french
<head_victim> I'm a bit stumped sorry, I don't recall anyone mentioning any issues. Maybe ask on the mailing list - details at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam#Contact or just hag around until someone with more information than I do appears.
<JCD> it should come up in french right? not in english if ubuntu is setup as french hmmmmm
<JCD> ok
<head_victim> The website will probably always show english but I would have thought the yelp would have been french.
<head_victim> I'm a bit lacking in testing for that though as I only translate english derivatives.
<JCD> this is for 11.04
<JCD> is there a way I can pull the source text?
<head_victim> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/gnome-user-docs/+pots/gnome-user-docs-user-guide/fr/+translate has a link to download the translation but that gives you a PO or MO, don't know if that's useful to you or not
<JCD> ok ill have a look
<JCD> it must be a known issue i would gather since 11.04 is so recent
<head_victim> You could try asking someone in ubuntu-fr to see if they know more.
<head_victim> Either that or the mailing list :)
<JCD> ok thanks ill stick around for a while if anyone has a definite answer :)
<head_victim> Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance
<JCD> thanks for your help :)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-05
<DanC_> in natty, what's supposed to happen when I insert a USB flash drive? Is it documented? What packages are supposed to be involved?
<DanC_> "The end of hal in Ubuntu - or almost" -- http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1676454
<DanC_> hmm... hal is no more?
 * DanC_ finds https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mount/USB
<DanC_> "go to System->Preferences->Removable Drives and Media" <- I lose there. I don't see any such menu option
<DanC_> is pmount a good idea?
<sktn07> would anyone tell me: i have downloaded firfox-5.0.tar.bz2...how to install it?
<EgyParadox> join #ubuntu ask there
<EgyParadox> he left
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-02
<littlegirl> Hey there, I'm working on the Kubuntu system documentation and in our global entities file we have this link for the Ubuntu documentation repos: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk and when I go to that link, Firerox says, "This Connection is Untrusted". What is the correct link?
<jbicha> correct link for which exactly?
<jbicha> our repos are at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc
<littlegirl> The exact alias is ubuntu-documentation-repos
<littlegirl> Okay, I'll replace it with that, then - thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-04
<littlegirl> The Launchpad Bazaar server for the Ubuntu core docs seems to be down. I'm getting a 503 error. Is it just me or is it that way for you guys, too? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-05
<gigix> hi everyone, shall I report dead links here ?
<gigix> FIXME: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PythonRecipes, link for Dive Into Python moved to http://www.diveintopython.net/
<jbicha> gigix: that's part of the community help wiki, you're welcome to fix itself if you like
<jbicha> just log in with your Launchpad/Ubuntu One account and click Edit
<gigix> thanks jbicha, could you gimme a little more details, maybe a howto link or something ?
<jbicha> gigix: do you have a Launchpad account or a Ubuntu One account?
<jbicha> Click the Login to edit button at the top of that page
<gigix> I am logging in with my launchpad
<gigix> jbicha, done thanks for your help
<jbicha> gigix: thanks for fixing it!
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-07
<switching> is this an acceptable page name? this is my first documentation page and i don't know where to find naming convention info. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCanonPixmaiP1700WirelessPrinterInUbuntu
<switching> Is that an acceptable page name?
<switching> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCanonPixmaiP1700WirelessPrinterInUbuntu
<switching> Is there a page on naming convention?
<switching> sorry about the repost btw my client initially didn't display the first post
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-30
<pmatulis_> is the Ubuntu Manual still alive?
<knome> afaik, yes
<pmatulis_> it shows 13.10
<knome> pmatulis_, yeah, i think they couldn't put up a new version for 14.04, but they're not completely inactive either
<belkinsa> They are inactive to do the lack of people to get on going, I think.
<belkinsa> So, basicly what knome said.
<belkinsa> pmatulis_, I like what you have done on the sandbox page for the Doc Team's home page.
<pmatulis_> belkinsa: alright, that's great.  the main community page should be re-worded as well like i mentioned.  i just didn't have time to keep going.  a crazy day today
<belkinsa> We can work the rest during the meeting if anyone is up tp it
<belkinsa> pmatulis_, ^^^
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-02
<belkinsa> Ubuntu Doc Meeting in 45 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<belkinsa> Meeting in 10 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<belkinsa> Now in less than 5 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<belkinsa> Starting meeting in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<belkinsa> pmatulis, ^^^
<pmatulis> belkinsa: hi
<belkinsa> Hey, the meeting is going on at #ubuntu-meeting-2
<pmatulis> belkinsa: coming
<belkinsa> The meeting is still going on in #ubuntu-meeting-2.  Join if you want!
<belkinsa> knome, mind if I PM you.
<knome> not at all
 * pleia2 passes around the honey schnapps
<pleia2> :D
 * godbyk snacks on a Hershey's chocolate bar. Yum!
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> much needed
<belkinsa> Sorry guys for that long meeting.
<pmatulis> apology accepted :)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-03
<pmatulis> morning
<belkinsa> shaunm, was there anything on resource management at the OHC this year?
<belkinsa> pmatulis, morning.  I'm thinking about what you said about resource management of our team.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: yep
<belkinsa> I understand that we still need the Community Help Wiki, but we can't just leave it to the users to edit it when needed.  There should be something that points the user to the Community Wiki Help page before they edit the page or at least the Style Guide.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: it's not possible to block them or force them to some starter page.  we just need to stop encouraging them the way we presently do
<belkinsa> Okay.
<belkinsa> I guess if it's community-driven, then the community can keep it going but the fear is the mess that I'm always seeing.  Maybe just because I'm a neat-freak, it's bugging me.
<belkinsa> I suppose you are right.  But I think we still need the admins to delete and rename pages if needed.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: thanks for being a neat-freak.  we need that
<pmatulis> belkinsa: yes, if there really are admins that patrol the wiki they should be actively deleting rotten pages and recommending good pages be promoted to official docs
<belkinsa> And that's not happening at all.
<pmatulis> i have my doubts too
<pmatulis> do you mean the patrols themselves or the deleting/recommending?
<belkinsa> Both.
<pmatulis> right
<pmatulis> we should have a talk with the wiki admin team
<pmatulis> and find out exactly what their level of involvment is
<belkinsa> Indeed, but it has some inactive members.
<pmatulis> let's put that on the next Wiki meeting agenda
<belkinsa> Sure.
<pmatulis> make sure some of them show up, they need to be explicitly invited
<belkinsa> I will.
<pmatulis> thanks a lot
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> You think we can keep your item on resource management for the next meeting?
<pmatulis> sure, but we'll need to be more precise on what is meant
<pmatulis> i gave a list of 4 numbers yesterday that summarizes my POV
<pmatulis> + moving the wiki under the community sub-domain
<belkinsa> But still have the admins patrol it, right?
<belkinsa> pmatulis, you do have a point about the wiki.  It's community-driven and not really documentation.  The Doc Team focuses on keeping the offical docs up-to-date and it should be that way.
<pmatulis> well, the official docs are also community-driven
<belkinsa> Yeah...
 * belkinsa faceplams
<pmatulis> sure, keep the admins patrolling the wiki, for what it's worth
<belkinsa> But would you rather have up-to-date doc than a random wiki page that never gotten updated in years?
<belkinsa> I must go, thanks for chatting with me pmatulis.  This could finish via e-mail, either to me (belkinsa@ubuntu.com) or to the List.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: up-to-date docs but i don't see the connection with the wiki patrols
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-04
<belkinsa> Happy Fourth of July everyone!
<dsmythies> knome are you around?
<dsmythies> knome: I am wondering about this deletion: <<Include(DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/MenuBar)>> as I liked it was way to move around quickly within the system docs pages.
<dsmythies> Example reference:
<dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/BuildingDocumentation?action=diff&rev1=34&rev2=35
<knome> dsmythies, from my point of view, this supports the new user better.
<knome> dsmythies, when they land on the main page, their attention does not go to the menubar and sublinks but the content
<knome> inside that content, we can control what we want them to read first and what are the last steps
<dsmythies> knome: O.K. but now I do not how to move around between the serverguide and building and editing and repository pages. Something I do constantly. (I can learn a new method.)
<knome> dsmythies, if they are constantly used together, maybe we can think where we'd need to the other pages in the wiki
<knome> or we can of course go back to the old menu stuff, though i'd still say that's counterproductive for new users
<dsmythies> knome: Thanks for explaining. I'll just bookmark all the pages I use. Previously, I only had one bookmarked, because I just used the menu after that. And truth be known all the pages I use weren't part of the menu anyhow.
<knome> mhm
<knome> belkinsa said she'd like a sitemap-like page, so maybe that's one option
<knome> because clearly we aren't linking all the pages in the menu or anywhere where you can get a good idea what kind of pages we have
<dsmythies> I just want to dart around as fast as possible... (I suspect I speak for all of us when I say "there just isn't enough time")
<knome> sure.
<knome> though having to dart around many many pages tells me about another problem than the menu
<knome> which is badly organized data
<knome> ok, i need to go to bed
<knome> i'm falling asleep with my laptop on the lap
<dsmythies> I just went through that group of pages during the last cycle. Myself, I think they are O.K. and organized alright. I just keep forgetting how to do stuff and find if I deviate from the list then I make a mistake. I mainly go between these three (even for desktop stuff):
<dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members-Serverguide
<knome> they look OK, but they could be better :)
<knome> but yeah, i'm probably the wrong person to evaluate that anyway since i'm not really using them
<dsmythies> Oh, I missed that you are exiting... never mind.
<knome> that's okay
<knome> have a nice day :)
<dsmythies> Have a nice night
<knome> and good night!
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-05
<belkinsa> knome, Ubuntu Scientists Team Wiki Homepage uses a Site-Map idea.  Ubuntu Women too.
<belkinsa> dsmythies ^^^ goes for you too.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: I went here to try to find the "scientists" team page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams but couldn't find a link. I did find this though: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/ but don't see a site-map. Can you give a link.
<belkinsa> The ubuntu Women one is on the Ubuntu WIki
<belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuScientists/SiteMap
<belkinsa> dsmythies, yeah, I still need to add it the teams list along withe Ubuntu Leadership team
<belkinsa> UW: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWomen
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Thanks. Simple and clear pages.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: hi
<pmatulis> belkinsa: o/
<dsmythies> Hi pmatulis
#ubuntu-doc 2016-07-06
<willcooke> hi all
<willcooke> Do you know if the power settings in the desktop are documented anywhere?  Specifically this screen:  http://imgur.com/4jfrzGp
<willcooke> There is a bug with "When power is crtically low": https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-control-center/+bug/1599264
<willcooke> which I've just "fixed" by removing that option from the settings UI
<willcooke> Ideally I would like to SRU this in to 16.04 and have it ready for 16.04.1
<willcooke> Would I need a UI freeze exception?
<pmatulis> willcooke, hi
<pmatulis> willcooke, you would be better off asking in a dev channel
<willcooke> oki, thanks pmatulis
