#edubuntu 2006-01-16
<spacey_ki> which cms were perfect for (school)intranet agian? 
<spacey_ki> moodle? 
* spacey_ki secretly pokes mhz_dinner 
<Burgwork> spacey, that seems to be the biggest
<spacey_ki> hmm
<spacey_ki> but we don't need online learning stuff
<Burgwork> why go for less
<Burgwork> if you choose something else and then want that online learning stuff, you are up a creek
<spacey_ki> well its a primary school
<Burgwork> spacey, doesn't really matter
<Burgwork> online materials are online materials
<spacey_ki> Burgwork, you use moodle?
<Burgwork> nope
<spacey_ki> the kids don't even have their own account
<spacey_ki> its mostly for teachers
<spacey_ki> so they can exchange info 
<spacey_ki> and stuff
<spacey_ki> and we can give them some news
<spacey_ki> and stuff
<Burgwork> again, I wouldn't limit yourself right now
<spacey_ki> well moodle is at least well maintained
<spacey_ki> as long as we can disable the course stuff
* ..[topic/#edubuntu:juliux] : The discussion channel for Edubuntu - the education version of Ubuntu, download: http://releases.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/5.10/ | Mailing List http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel | Wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org | Website http://www.edubuntu.org | MEETING: 11 Jan at 12:00 UTC | Read before installing: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuInstallNotes
<manu_ubu> hello
<manu_ubu> ogra: ?
<manu_ubu> ogra_ibook: ping ?
<jsgotangco> see you guys at the meeting
<juliux> could it bee that the dapper installer dont ask how the hostname should be?
<mhz> juliux: sorry I can't help with dapper testing yet
<mhz> I cant use curretn machine for testing :(
<mhz> maybe next week
<juliux> ah ok
<mhz> juliux: but it does sound strange
<mhz> iirc every linux installation (not from scratch ones, though) asks for hostname, right?
<juliux> but the installer didnt ask me 
<juliux> to my hostname is now edubuntu
<ogra_ibook> yup
<mhz> yup? as in 'no questions asked' ?
<juliux> ogra_ibook, and the locale error is there also if i select in the languag selctor german
<ogra_ibook> yup as in no questions asked, right
<ogra_ibook> juliux, i told you you cant select the locale in current flight releases, as the notes say 
<ogra_ibook> i even repeated the note of the flight2 notes in the edubuntu flight2 announcement
<juliux> ogra_ibook, but there also stands "If your system is connected to the Internet, 
<juliux>   please use the Language Selector after installation to download 
<juliux>   language packs."
<ogra_ibook> use the default (english) for installation and change it afterwards
<juliux> this i did
<ogra_ibook> yes
<ogra_ibook> works here
<juliux> here not
<ogra_ibook> on 5 installs i did
<juliux> hm
<juliux> i have installed it english and than installed german with the languag selector, but know i get locales errors
<ogra_ibook> did you generate de_* locales after installing the langpack ? 
<juliux> yes
<juliux> without an eror
<ogra_ibook> then it should just work 
<juliux> but if i want to install something with apt-get i get an locales error
<ogra_ibook> as i said, i have seen no problems so far until now
<juliux> ok i will test it again
<ogra_ibook> it might be that the locales package got incompatible due to the change pitti announced on ubuntu-devel, my installs are all over a week old
<juliux> i have here flight2 with no updates
<juliux> the error i get i want to do locale-gen know is: de_DE.UTF-8... cannot open locale definition file `de_DE 
<ogra_ibook> did you already look in bugzilla ? 
<juliux> that i do at the moment
<JaneW> **Reminder** Edubuntu Dev Update meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in +-2 minutes.
* JaneW eats lunch quickly...
<juliux> has someone a brand new dapper edubuntu?
<jouni__m> juliux edubutu-desktop dapper installed here
<ogra_ibook> juliux, yup
<ogra_ibook> running it on this ibook
<juliux> ogra_ibook, i get an error by mounting the filesystems
<juliux> is there any logfile about this on the server?
* juliux dont want to ask everytime ogra
<jsgotangco> so long and thanks for all the fish
<spacey_ki> juliux, error mounting what?
<mhz> ogra_ibook: so, to review what artwork is being included and images, icons, etc... should I just get the sources of which pkg?
<mhz> (i wont be able to try dapper yet)
<ogra> you need the daper source of edubuntu-artwork
<ogra> there is noting in yet
<mhz> ooh
<ogra> its only the technical part thats solved yet
<mhz> i see
<ogra> i will default to the breezy artwork for now
<mhz> and do you want /need something for LDM?
<ogra> if you have some intresting stuff, go ahead, we can make a ldm-themes package
<mhz> ok, let us finish and show what we had in mind and I get back to you
<mhz_BBL> thx, ogra for you efforts and patience
<ogra> juliux, which filesystem does not mount, can you be a bit more specific ?
<lucasvo> http://www.bern.ch/stadtrat/archiv/2004/20040311.pdf
<lucasvo> http://wilhelmtux.ch/vpipermail/wilhelmtux-discussion/2006-January/002389.html
<lucasvo> edubuntu? :{
<juliux> ogra, the error is: mount: mounting /root/dev on /dev/.static/dev failed: No such file or directory the same for mounting /sys on /root/sys and /proc on /root/proc 
<ogra> thats the old nfs error, should work after a client reboot
<juliux> and then comes Target filesystem doesent have /sbin/init
<ogra> it only happens on first boot attampt
<juliux> ogra, hm here not
<juliux> i have reboot the thinclient 
<ogra> there must be a nfs timeout message somewhere above
<ogra> whats the rootserver address, must be above as well
<juliux> ah ok
<juliux> must i configure the nfs server ?
<ogra> oh, and do you have set next-server in the dhcpd config ?
<juliux> mom
<ogra> its needed now
<juliux> ok then is ther my failure
<juliux> ogra, my exports looks ok
<juliux> what i have to configure for the nfs server?
<ogra> next-server in your dhcp config
<lucasvo> ogra: what do you think, is edubuntu good enough for 1000pcs in Bern?
<lucasvo> maybe workstations?
<lucasvo> is there anyone who could give support?
<ogra> we have a upport department at canonical, you can buy support
<ogra> which probably makes sense at such size
<lucasvo> ogra: hm, that is a good thing
<juliux> ogra, thanks now he boots up
<lucasvo> ogra: what do they offer?
<juliux> ogra, i will write it in the german wiki
<ogra> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/supportoptions/paidsupport
<ogra> juliux, but keep in mind to delete it after dhcpd is fixed
<ogra> this wont stay tin this state
<ogra> s/tin/in
<juliux> ogra, ok i will make a unstable site
<ogra> ++
<juliux> ogra, and if i find something i will wrote there
<ogra> note also that sound is possible now through setting SOUND=on in tls.conf
<ogra> *lts.conf
<juliux> ok
<ogra> would be good to get some testing for it
<juliux> at the moment x is up and down
<juliux> ah ok
<juliux> but at first x must work here
<ogra> what kind of graphics card ? 
<juliux> cyrix
<juliux> the same as in the compaq
<ogra> hmm, same problem ?
<juliux> nope
<ogra> no 32bit support
<ogra> and not enough graphics mem
<juliux> i see the console for a very short moment and then he tries to switch to the x server
<ogra> yes
<juliux> and i cannt log in
<juliux> :(
<juliux> how can i stop the x server?
<ogra> so make ltsp-client not start in the chroot and reboot the client and go on with debugging :)
<juliux> and how can i stop that?
<juliux> in the rc skripts?
<ogra> yes
<ogra> rc2 is the default runlevel, remove the link there
<juliux> i know
<juliux> ogra, if the x server failes to start is the any possiblity to kill him? or only to reboot the thinclient?
<lucasvo> juliux: ctrl+alt+delete?
<juliux> lucasvo, dont work
<ogra> doesnt wok with a display manager thats respawning it
<ogra> you need to do what i said above
<juliux> that i have done
<ogra> so your X server shouldnt start
<juliux> i have removed the symlink from rc2
<juliux> so i get tty1 to login
<ogra> good
<juliux> and then i change the xorg.conf
<juliux> and i get an out of range and then i boot new
<juliux> and my question was if there is a way that i dont have to reboot 
<ogra> try to run startx and see what it drops out (it wont start with a ro /root, but throw out errors
<juliux> ok thanks
<juliux> ah 
<juliux> i think x runs
<juliux> but there is no /root/.xsession file, no /root/.Xsession file no session mangaers, no window managers,no terminal emulators,
<juliux> is it right that i must run ltsp-client?
<ogra> x runs ? 
<ogra> ok
<juliux> yes it get a x display
<ogra> try running "ldm vt 7" (without quotes)
<Lord_Athur> hi all
<ogra> probably you need to give it the path 
<juliux> ok
<juliux> ogra, what does " ldm vt 7" do?
<juliux> i see nothing
<ogra> start ldm on vt7
<juliux> i get a consolen prompt
<juliux> http://paste.ubuntuusers.de/1315 this is the ldm.log
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> right, it doesnt start X
<juliux> jup
<ogra> and cant find a server to connect to
<juliux> what is if i run the ltsp-client skript?
<ogra> x will start and respawn endlessly if it fails for some reason
<juliux> but x no starts if i start it with startx
<juliux> s/no/now
<ogra> install xterm in th echroot and make a .xinitrc 
<ogra> then run ldm tv 7 from the xterm you started in .xinitrc
<ogra> wso you can see the error
<ogra> indeed you can try running the ltsp-clinet script, but i'm not sure the error is in X
<ogra> so you might end up with a flashing screen again
<juliux> i have set the depth to 16 and remove the GLcore
<juliux> in the xorg.conf
<juliux> yes i get an login screen!!
<ogra> oki
<ogra> can you try again and leave the GLcore in ? 
<juliux> sure
<juliux> hm there must be an other failure
<ogra> i think i'll just run sed over xorg.conf before startup and replace 32bit generally with 16
<juliux> you mean 24bit not 32
<ogra> GLcore should just fail silently
<ogra> yes, whatever is set there
<ogra> some cards call 24bit 32bit
<juliux> ah ok
<juliux> hm i can log in but then i get an black screen and then i  see the login screen again
<ogra> your sshkeys are not right i guess
<Yagisan> re 24bit/32bit naming - because accessing as 32bit was faster. they use the extra byte for transparency on some cards. Same colour depth of 16.7M colours though
<ogra> ah
<mhz_BBL> juliux: ltsp-update-sshkey ?
<juliux> mhz_BBL, i know
* juliux love his vga,mouse and keyboard switch
<ogra> juliux, 6 TFTs and cordless mice and keyboards look way more impressive to the girls than a simple switch ;)
<juliux> ogra, i know
<juliux> ogra, but a swicht cost only 30
<ogra> sure
<ogra> :)
<juliux> ogra, one notebook, one tft, on barebone and 3 thinclients are enough at the moment
<juliux> oh i forgot my voip telephone
<juliux> know it works
<ogra> great
<juliux> but i used the vesa driver and not the cyrix driver
<juliux> i will test it in the next days
<juliux> or weeks
<ogra> that would be nice, we need to catch all X bugs ...
<juliux> ok
<ogra> and i doubt we have many users with trident or cyrix cards apart from thin clients :)
<juliux> hehe
<ogra> my trident doenst work either 
<juliux> many fujitsu siemens thinclients have a cyrix card
<juliux> so now i have to learn for my exams
<ogra> many ltsp thinclients have a trident card
<ogra> :)
<juliux> hm the compaq one also have a cyrix card
<sivang> ogra: did you get along with what you wanted with g-s-t and edubuntu? I reacalled we talked about it, but no idea where it went ;-)
<ogra> nope
<ogra> local devices is most likely not seeing dapper
<sivang> ogra: ok, blocked by lack of time or soem more human dependencies?
<ogra_ibook> lack of time and lack of a real good worked out spec
<photonics> hello
<photonics> i'm using ubuntu at home, and i wanted to know if there was a way to apt-get install the packages from edubuntu?
<ogra_ibook> yup
<ogra_ibook> to get the desktop, just install edubuntu-desktop 
<ogra_ibook> for the server part (ltsp) use edubuntu-server 
<photonics> ah ok, thanks a lot ogra :)
* arkan0x is away: almuerzo
<juliux> ogra, can you pls e-mail me your address, so i can send the thinclients tomorrow to you
<ogra_ibook> yup
<lucasvo> juliux: I can give it to you : lucas vogelsang, turnerstrasse 1, 8006 Zurich, CH :P
<juliux> lucasvo, lol
<writer> ogra%   "I bet fot WindowMaker because of its simplicity but Oliver and others have pointed that this desktop does not consider the FreeDesktop.org standards"  - Why?
<ogra_ibook> no idea why, ask the windowmaker guys
<writer> How make XFCE desktop for Edubuntu from sourses?
<ogra_ibook> writer, janimo and crimsun are the xfce team ...
<ogra_ibook> they made a xubuntu-desktop package available in breezy already ...
<ogra_ibook> if you use the edubuntu DVD release, you will be able to optionally install it 
<ogra_ibook> (in dapper)
<writer> I tried stay XFCE from Synaptic and I saw it in list, but I can't use XFCE. Gnome always for me.
<writer> I check now Edubuntu DVD - there are not XFCE
<ogra_ibook> in dapper
<ogra_ibook> not in breezy
<ogra_ibook> in breezy the xubuntu-desktop packages are in universe
<ogra_ibook> for dapper they went to main... all of main is on the DVD
<writer> dapper=5.10? breeze=6.04? So? Can I see what Edubuntu DVD I have?
<Burgwork> writer, yes and edubuntu dvd contains main, restricted, universe and maybe parts of multiverse
<ogra_ibook> dapper == next release in the year 2006 (6.) in april (04)
<ogra_ibook> Burgwork, err ? 
<Burgwork> ogra_ibook, if there is an edubuntu dvd, I was assuming there was and it was similar to the ubuntu one
<ogra_ibook> writer, currently there is only the breezy DVD
<ogra_ibook> breezy == last release
<writer> 5.10? Yes?
<ogra_ibook> Burgwork, we dont have anything of uni or multiverse on any DVD in ubuntu, kubuntu or edubuntu
<ogra_ibook> writer, yes
<Burgwork> ogra
<Burgwork> hmm, my bad
<ogra_ibook> there are only main and the 10 or 20MB of restricted ...
<writer> Thank you all
<writer> But how light on XFCE?
<ogra_ibook> try it out from universe :) its not big to download (5-10MB)
<writer> OK, I have Internet throw GPRS (10M = $1)
<jair> hello guys, how are you doing with your LTSPclientsetup?
<jair> I am a debian "sarge" user but would like to have a educational thin client lab for the kids at my Organization
<jair> the only doubt I have is: I have already my network configured using a "firewall" smoothwall with the ip configuration of 192.168.168.XXX
<jair> if I want to use this configuration: "A setup with two network cards in the server" ->url http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuLtspWiring?action=show&redirect=EdubuntuWiring
<jair> all I need is to have a good server 1GB ram or 2GB ram, good HD 250GB and also two nics
<jair> right
<jair> ?
<ogra_ibook> yup
<jair> now this new network I wanted to separate it completely to the 192.168.168.xxx
<ogra_ibook> thats fine too 
<jair> but the thing is that I have already a dhcp server running in another machine (i.e. 192.168.168.7)
<ogra_ibook> just note that the ip you are asked for during install will be the one for the thin client part
<jair> so i will still need a dhcp server from the eth1-> to the thing clients right?
<ogra_ibook> the dhcp server running on edubuntu will start only for the matching interface
<jair> eth0 -> will be 192.168.168.120 and then the eth1-> 192.168.0.x
<jair> because I want to provide internet to the thin clients
<ogra_ibook> so if your thin clients are on eth1 you are fine :)
<jair> right
<jair> ogra, nice
<ogra_ibook> thats no prob at all, note that you run the session on the server....
<ogra_ibook> "jair because I want to provide internet to the thin clients" ... i think you mean internet to the users, right ? 
<jair> so my gateway currently is (i.e. 192.168.168.2) my gateway in the edubuntu will be 192.168.168.120
<jair> in eth0
<jair> yes
<jair> to the users of the 192.168.0.xxx eth0 edubuntu
<jair> sorry
<ogra_ibook> then the client network is irrelevant 
<jair> to the users of the 192.168.0.xxx eth1 edubuntu
<ogra_ibook> you log in to the server, if ine interface on the server has internet access thats fine for the users ... no need to route the thin client network
<jair> ohh ok
<ogra_ibook> s/ine/one/
<jair> because the thin clients are actually running from the server
<jair> right
<jair> no HD in the clients
<jair> just memory
<jair> and a cd-rom
<jair> how could I will save the files in the server only right?
<jair> using nfs or samba??
<jair> not samba I think
<jair> no windows needed in that network
<jair> ;)
<ogra_ibook> there are reciepes on the ltsp.org wiki for doing that
<ogra_ibook> we dont have a working implementation for local device support in ubuntu yet
<jair> ogra_ibook, what do you mean???
<jair> ogra_ibook, I will not be able of save documents the students will be working on?
<ogra_ibook> you will not be able to save them on a say usb stick on the thin client
<ogra_ibook> i misread your question, sorry
<ogra_ibook> students save their stuff in their homme directory on the server
<jair> nice
<jair> cool
<jair> but the other idea is good for the future ;)
<ogra_ibook> indeed you could mount these from a windows server anywhere else or do other weird things ;)
<jair> haha good
<jair> perfect thank you for your time ;)
<jair> ogra_ibook, I appreciate it
<ogra_ibook> the local device support its planned for the october release, so you'll be able to use the Cd roms in the clients
<ogra_ibook> or usb sticks or cameras
<jair> I will be preparing the server requeriments
<jair> right
<jair> but in the thins no?
<jair> no yet
<jair> in the server only
<jair> and control it from the server directly
<jair> ;)
<jair> for 16 computers how much ram I should get??
<jair> in the server
<jair> ?
<ogra_ibook> yup :)
<ogra_ibook> count 128M for each client and 256M for the server itself
<juliux> ogra_ibook, with 24 depth and glcore he can not load the glcore module and x don t start,  without glcore x also dont startx, with 16 depth and glcore x starts
<ogra_ibook> great
<ogra_ibook> so we only need to make sure 16bit is set
<juliux> yes
<ogra_ibook> wonderful
<juliux> i will now test if it also works with the cytrix driver
<juliux> at the moment the vesa driver is working
<ogra_ibook> cytrix will likely work as well ...
<ogra_ibook> but test it
<juliux> ogra_ibook, cyrix with 24depth dont work, depth 16 here also don t work
<ogra_ibook> oh
<ogra_ibook> was cytrix autodetected ? 
<juliux> no
<juliux> vesa
<ogra_ibook> ah, k
<juliux> and with 16depth i get out of range and cannt kill x with strg+c
<ogra_ibook> then cytrix wont work i guess, xorg is able to gess the right driver 
<juliux> ok
<ogra_ibook> *guess
<juliux> i only want test it
<ogra_ibook> juliux, 
<ogra_ibook> still here ?
<juliux> ogra_ibook, sue
<juliux> sure
<ogra_ibook> try the following:
<ogra_ibook> add the line:
<ogra_ibook> sed -i -e 's/DefaultDepth\W*[2,3] [4,2] /DefaultDepth    16/' /etc/X11/xorg.conf/xorg.conf
<ogra_ibook> to /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/init.d/ltsp-client-setup
<juliux> hm
<ogra_ibook> after the line reading:
<ogra_ibook>  dpkg-reconfigure -fnoninteractive -pcritical $xserver_package
<juliux> but then you do it for all cards
<ogra_ibook> before the "fi"
<ogra_ibook> yup
<juliux> ok
<ogra_ibook> i'll add an option 16_BIT_ONLY for lts.conf if it works
<ogra_ibook> so you can set it 
<juliux> ok i will test it wait a moment
<sivang> ogra_ibook: that is some funky sed'ing :)
<ogra_ibook> but works 
<ogra_ibook> :)
<juliux> ogra_ibook, but here not if i reacitve the ltsp-client in the rc2 
<ogra_ibook> hmm, thenn its inn the wrong place....
<juliux> wait a moment i boot again
<ogra_ibook> put it behind:      configure_x || true
<juliux> its my failure
<ogra_ibook> i guess it needs its own function later anyway
<ogra_ibook> ah, ok
<ogra_ibook> so try the firts methis first
<ogra_ibook> *first methid
<ogra_ibook> gnah
<ogra_ibook> *method
<juliux> in your sed line was one xorg.conf to much
<ogra_ibook> oops
<juliux> and i did only copy and past
<ogra_ibook> yes, right
<ogra_ibook> so it was my fault, sorry
<juliux> yes but i dont read the line right
<juliux> ogra_ibook, it works
<juliux> ogra_ibook, now i will test sound ;)
<ogra_ibook> yay
<juliux> ogra_ibook, where i must save the lts.conf?
<ogra_ibook>       if [ -z "${X_LOW_DEPTH}" ] ; then
<ogra_ibook>         sed -i -e 's/DefaultDepth\W*[2,3] [4,2] /DefaultDepth    16/' $xserver_config
<ogra_ibook>       fi
<ogra_ibook> try that one :)
<juliux> puh
<juliux> ok
<juliux> i will do it tomorrow
<ogra_ibook> and set X_LOW_DEPTH = True  in the lts.conf :)
<juliux> and where must be the lts.conf?
<juliux> i have only one here /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/doc/ltsp-client/examples/lts.conf
<ogra_ibook> i think thats how i'll implement it ... 
<ogra_ibook> probably the var name should be more descriptive
<ogra_ibook> oh
<juliux> why dont test against the driver ?
<ogra_ibook> no, thats the example
<juliux> i know
<juliux> but where must be the normal lts.conf
<ogra_ibook> because 16bit is also the upstream default and most commercial thin clients only support 16bit
<ogra_ibook> because testing against the driver would involve quite heavy xorg changes
<juliux> ah ok
<ogra_ibook> two reasons to do it this way
<ogra_ibook> the lts.conf must be in the etc dir of the chroot
<juliux> ok
<juliux> but this i will do tomorrow
<juliux> gn8
<ogra_ibook> night
<lucasvo> ogra_ibook: is there any GTK typing program?
<Burgwork> lucasvo, none that I know of, but there might be one
<lucasvo> might?
<lucasvo> because a friend of mine developed a program for my school. Apple/Cocoa
<lucasvo> I am thinking of paying him to rewrite it with OmGUI(www.omgui.org) which will be available for win/mac/gtk
<lucasvo> I would then sell it as a commercial product, and once got a little bit more than I needed to develop,  I will publish it under GPL
<lucasvo> so I just have to find enough schools who will buy it and then I think it should be included into edubuntu
<Burgwork> lucasvo, why not wxwidgets
<lucasvo> Burgwork: isn't that only windows?
<Burgwork> lucasvo, no, is cross platform and quite mature. Uses gtk2 on linux
<lucasvo> Burgwork: object orientated C?
<lucasvo> LGPL?
<Burgwork> http://www.wxwidgets.org/
<lucasvo> OMGUI is being designed from the ground up to have an API which makes sense across all supported platforms, which are currently Microsoft Windows, Apple Mac OS X, and GTK+. Not only does this give the developer an API which is easy to understand, it helps to ease the burden of implementing the API, as the API has been designed to work with the underlying system instead of forcing it to try to act like a different platform. This results in a codebase w
#edubuntu 2006-01-17
<Velmont> Typing program? What is that?
<Burgwork> Velmont, typing tutor
<Velmont> Ah :)
<jair> this room is awsome, here I notice that a lot of people have something in common, concerns about education and also technology base on Linux.
<mhz> neurogeek: holas!
<mhz> neurogeek: do you know 'Jesus Molina aka quidam' ?
<neurogeek> mhz, Hello you
<neurogeek> mhz, hmmm..  it does ring a bell
<mhz> he's venezuelan too
<neurogeek> i think i've seen him around irc
<wadeb> hello, I have a project that I want to submit to edubuntu.  can anyone give me some tips on where to get started?
<Burgundavia> wadeb, which project?
<wadeb> burgundavia: it's called "cuecard", it's a (previously) windows flash card program that I have ported to GTK (using wxWidgets)
<wadeb> burgundavia: a windows installer is available at http://www.download.com/CueCard/3000-2051_4-10380167.html?tag=lst-0-1
<wadeb> burgundavia: I'm still learning how to package it for ubuntu.
<Burgundavia> that is the first step
<Burgundavia> the issue with wx is that it is not installed by default
<Burgundavia> nor is it in "main" which is security supported. Any application that is shipped by default must be in main
<Burgundavia> to get into main you need to have your application security checked, as well as any deps
<Burgundavia> but don't let that discourage you
<Burgundavia> even just having it packaged is great
<wadeb> is it possible to submit using --disable-shared?  then it would only link dynamically to gtk
<Burgundavia> I have no idea, you would need to talk to people who actually cut code
<wadeb> ok, I'll keep working on packaging and report back.. thanks
<Burgundavia> wadeb, if you need help with packaging, the people in #ubuntu-motu can help
<Burgundavia> they deal with all of "universe", the unsupported free software
<wadeb> really?  great, I'll check over there.
<ilba7r> !packages
<ilba7r> is there a link i can find the package list for edubuntu or is it the same as ubuntu?
<highvoltage> any edubuntu cookbook cooks around?
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, jsgotangco is around
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, long time no see
<jsgotangco> well i haven't been involved in the cookbook lately (no idea who's doing who)
<Burgundavia> kjcole I know has been doing some work, highvoltage 
<highvoltage> hi Burgundavia.
<highvoltage> yes, long time no see. if it's not lack of internet connection, it's being flooded with work :)
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, I guess I am lucky. I had a very quiet Christmas. sales work is like that
<highvoltage> ah yes.
<Petaris> Yagisan: Hello
<Yagisan> Petaris: G'day
<Yagisan> Petaris: how are you ?
<Petaris> not bad, you?
<Petaris> Did you ever get a chance to play with that novell client?  I keep missing you in here.
<Yagisan> Petaris: fine, very busy with real life(tm), I should have been in bed hours ago
<Petaris> haha, How late is it there?
<Yagisan> Petaris: I have had a brief look - just a sec I made some notes, I'll see where I put them. 3:47am
<Petaris> Yagisan: oh, its not late its early  ;)
<Yagisan> Petaris: heh - actually, if the baby is true to form, he'll wake up wanting a feed sometime in the next 15-20 minutes
<Petaris> Yagisan: How old is he?
<Yagisan> Petaris: he is 7 weeks. He'll wake up, then wake his 23 month old sister up, before going to sleep again
<Petaris> Yagisan: ahh, fun
* Yagisan whips himself - yes fun
<Yagisan> Petaris: you have kids ?
<Petaris> Yagisan: nope, a 3 mo neice though
<Yagisan> Petaris: ok - found my notes. Most of the package is binary code only - can't see source for it
<Yagisan> Petaris: however
<Yagisan> Petaris: I did find the source for the novfs kernel source
<Yagisan> Petaris: that is gpl
<Yagisan> Petaris: other parts are under a novell eula
<Petaris> Yagisan:  Hrm,  Do you think it could work with edubuntu though?
<Yagisan> Petaris: that novell eula does not mention it is redistributable at all
<Petaris> Yagisan:  Bummer, but people could still download it from novell
<Yagisan> Petaris: I'm not sure - I made a note to run ldd on the binaries, but I haven't tried that yet
<Petaris> Yagisan:  I wonder if just running alien to change the rpm to a deb would work
<Yagisan> Petaris: not always - distros are source, but not always binary compatible
<Petaris> Yagisan:  Ok
<Petaris> Yagisan:  There was a novell guy (developer) in the pilot-link channel a couple weeks ago, if he stops back I'll see if he can shed light on this
<Yagisan> Petaris: you can try it. but I don't think it can be in Ubuntu proper, as except for the kernel module, I don't think it is open source
<Yagisan> Petaris: at least the EULA seems to indicate it is not - part of novells competitive advantage strategy it seems
<Petaris> Yagisan: having it included with edubuntu was never my thought, just having it be able to work with edubuntu for those who have a Novell infrastruture.
<Yagisan> Petaris: if you alien the rpm, it may work - it installs most (but not all) stuff under /opt
<Petaris> hrm
<Petaris> Yagisan: I don't have a novell setup ATM to test it on, I needed to blow away my test box to work on something else
<Petaris> Yagisan: I'll try to setup another one and give it a try
<Petaris> Yagisan: If it works this could be a very nice selling point for edubuntu
<Yagisan> Petaris: qemu may work, vmware workstation will (30 day free trial, make up you vm's then use the free vmware player to run them)
<Petaris> Yagisan: I have the full version (paid for) of VMware workstation
<Yagisan> Petaris: It's nice isn't it (for a non-opensource app) 4.5 ? 5.0 or 5.5 ?
<Petaris> Yagisan: I'll give it a try
<Petaris> Yagisan: 5.0, and I've used it for a long time
<Yagisan> Petaris: if 5.0, your 5.0 key will work with 5.5 :) free upgrade
<Petaris> Yagisan: 5.5 has usb issues, or so I've heard
<Petaris> brb
<Yagisan> Petaris: I tried 5.5 because it was supposed to support 64bit guests, but my 64bit cpu isn't supported :(
<Petaris> back
<Petaris> Yagisan: Which cpu?
<Petaris> Yagisan: AMD Athlon64 Opteron are
<Yagisan> Petaris: early model amd64
<Petaris> Yagisan: er, and opteron
<Petaris> Yagisan: hrm
<Petaris> Yagisan: I run vmware 4.5 on a amd64 3200+
<Petaris> Yagisan: Thats at home
<Yagisan> Petaris: 32bit guest is ok - but no 64bit guest
<Yagisan> Petaris: I wanted 64bit guests - so I was rather disappointed
<Petaris> Yagisan: Ahh
<Petaris> Yagisan: Ok, I thought you meant the host
<Yagisan> night all
* arkan0x is away: ~~...
<mhz> hy all
<mhz> ogra_ibook: ping
<ogra_ibook> mhz, pong
<mhz> ogra_ibook: do you remember the port for Schooltool and its login info ?
<ogra_ibook> something in the 7000s ...
<knario> hola que tan tengo un problema nose que le pasa a mi firefox que no puedo ver letras
<ogra_ibook> i think 7880
<knario> que puedo hacer para repararlo?
<ogra_ibook> knario, #ubuntu-es ? or #edubuntu-es ?
<knario> como?
<mhz> knario: /join #ubuntu-es
<ogra_ibook> knario, i think you want a spanish channel :)
<Burgwork> mhz, what does como mean?
<knario> o!
<mhz> Burgundavia: 'how'
<ogra_ibook> pardon i think
<knario> thankyou!
<mhz> yw
<ogra_ibook> :)
<juliux> ogra_ibook, moin pls send me your address
<ogra_ibook> oh, danmed ...
<ogra_ibook> i forgot aboiut that 
<juliux> ogra_ibook, and do you have some doku about lts.conf ?
<Burgwork> mhz, ah, thanks
<ogra_ibook> juliux, can you give me your mail address ? i'm doing a testinstall on my machine with the addressbook
<juliux> ogra_ibook, juliux@ubntu-de.org
<mhz> ogra_ibook: nope, 7880 aint semm so
<mhz> see
<mhz> seem
<ogra_ibook> its documented soemwhere on schooltool.org 
<ogra_ibook> i think the default user is schooltool with the PW manager ...
<mhz> 7080, it is
<ogra_ibook> but i might remember wrong
<mhz> hehhehe
<mhz> np
<mhz> I'll wiki it
<mhz> soon
<mhz> ogra_ibook: but so far,..th1a: hmmm. ''connection refused when attemting to contact 7080" :(
<mhz> - thla
<ogra_ibook> is schooltool running ? 
<selmys> can anyone help me with a network problem?
<juliux> selmys, what is your problem?
<selmys> installed 5.1 and all signs indicate network should be working but it's not - ifconfig ok, route ok, lspci ok, dmesg ok, etc. etc.
<juliux> and what doesnt work?
<ogra_ibook> did you give the right IP in the installer ? 
<selmys> yes IP info is right. Hardware works with Knoppix
<selmys> can't ping anything except self
<platos> can you ping to the address you have configured for yourself (not localhost)
<selmys> yes, I can ping my own address. Also, resolv.conf is correct.
<selmys> I'm suspecting maybe a bad iso image. Is that possible?
<platos> did you use a breezy image?
<juliux> ogra_ibook, what do you think about a edubuntu thincliente database?
<ogra_ibook> sure, why not
<selmys> not sure what image. just downloaded edubuntu-5.10-install-i386.iso
<platos> well thats the breezy one
<platos> hm... and you have one card installed on your pc?
<selmys> I have 2 NICs, eth0 and eth1. I tried each one with dhcp and static config but neither worked even though all indicators said it should.
<platos> so dhclient wouldnt get anything with either of em... weird, the only thing i then could think off is a faulty netwerk cable...
<selmys> I used the same cable with Knoppix and it worked with either card.
<platos> well you could try one reboot, and then see what happens
<platos> and if that doesnt work, try the live cd first...
<selmys> believe me I've rebooted many times. But I like your idea about the live CD. I'm going to download it and try it immediately. 
<platos> you have to use the normal ubuntu live cd though
<platos> edubuntu hasnt got a live cd yet
<ogra_ibook> platos, it has a daily-livecd 
<platos> ;) i know
<platos> but isnt that still in alpha 
<platos> or beta
<ogra_ibook> which currently culd need some testers, since we're about to make the next development release ready
<platos> hm well i have some time around next week, i'll give it a try then
<ogra_ibook> its the third milestone release currently
<platos> ogra_ibook: i know i'm using flight cd2 right now, and i have a problem though
<selmys> can anyone tell me where I can download this live CD. I don't care if it's beta. At least it's something to try.
<platos> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/dapper/flight-2/
<platos> use flight-2 that one will at least work :P
<ogra_ibook> it has lots of bugs but boots :)
<ogra_ibook> the current daily is nearly flight 3
<platos> ogra_ibook: when i run wine on my thin-clients the screen is black when i want to start a windows program
<ogra_ibook> i'm currently doing the test for amd64
<platos> ogra_ibook: on the server it runs great however
<ogra_ibook> platos, i guess the video output isnt plain X ... so the forwarding might fail ...
<selmys> thanks. talk to you later.
* ogra_ibook has no clue about wine 
<platos> ogra_ibook: any hacks to this? it worked on breezy...
<ogra_ibook> platos, on the thin client ? 
<platos> yes
<platos> ... i am using version 9.5 now though
<platos> i was using version 9.0 on breezy
<ogra_ibook> hmm, either a X regression or a wine regression then
<ogra_ibook> you could try to downgrade (if the dependencys allow) and check if its wine or X this way
<platos> i'll go back to 9.0... i think that one worked
<ogra_ibook> tell me if you have tested it and it works ...
<platos> lol it works
<platos> i took an old release of wine from the archive.ubuntulinux.com
<platos> hang on i'll get the exact name
<platos> wine_0.0.20050725-0ubuntu1_i386.deb
<Burgwork> platos, 0.9.3 had serious regressions
<platos> thats the package that works on ltsp
<platos> Burgwork: do you have experience with wine?
<Burgwork> platos, some
<platos> Burgwork, I want to use sound in wine
<Burgwork> hmm, should just work for some things
<platos> Burgwork, do you know how? it is on a thin-client, sound already works for gnome
<Burgwork> I don't know what audio backend wine uses. I suspect it tries to talk to /dev/dsp directly
<platos> well i saw that you can basically choose which audio its using
<platos> i'll try some things out
<ogra_ibook> use esd 
<ogra_ibook> if you want to use it on the thin client
* Burgwork steals the words from my mouth
<platos> ok
<platos> argh, i can choose out of alsa,arts,nas,oss,audio io(solaris) and jack
<Burgwork> fc4 appears to havea  wine-esd package
<platos> well, apparently wine hasnt got those seperate packages anymore, now you only have to install one package for wine
<ogra_ibook> gah, you can choose arts but not esd ? 
<Burgwork> http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-cvs/2005/08/0069.html
<ogra_ibook> yes, upstream asked for it
<platos> lol and i've just installed the package that was made on 25-7
<Burgwork> platos, try the latest from dapper
<platos> already tried that one, that one gives me a black screen whenever i run something on the thin-client
<Burgwork> I would walk my way back through the versions
<Burgwork> and have you reported these bugs upstream?
<platos> lol i've just found out about them
<platos> i'll report them tomorrow
<platos> i gotta finish that server today
<\sh> platos: what is not working with wine?
<ogra_ibook> platos, \sh maintains the wine packages in ubuntu currently
<\sh> sidenote: not maintaining, I'm trying to package them nicely :) scott ritchie maintains the original packages :)
<platos> \sh: i get a black screen when i run a app with wine on a thin client
<platos> \sh: and thats with wine version 9.5
<\sh> platos: which windows app? :) 
<platos> \sh: lol an installer
<platos> \sh: the dcom98.exe
<platos> \sh: on the server it works however
<platos> \sh: and i downloaded a previous version of wine out of archive.ubuntulinux.com and with that one it works
<platos> \sh: i am currently downloading the cvs and compiling it from that
<\sh> platos: well, I tested notepad.exe via ssh -X to my amd64 box and a i386 chroot of dapper with wine 0.9.5..and this works..
<platos> \sh: lol weird
<\sh> platos: so I think it's more upstream fault..there were other problems with wine 0.9.4 which were solved with 0.9.5
<\sh> platos: can I download this dcom98.exe tool somehow?
<platos> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/thankyou.aspx?familyId=08b1ac1b-7a11-43e8-b59d-0867f9bdda66&displayLang=en&oRef=http%3a%2f%2fwww.microsoft.com%2fcom%2fdefault.mspx
<\sh> ok...I'll test it here again..and let's see :)
<platos> well on the server it works, but not in a thin-client boot
<spacey_ki> <Burgwork> platos, 0.9.3 had serious regressions <- 0.9.4 is there also
<spacey_ki> i had sound on my breezy laptop
<spacey_ki> with windows app in wine
<platos> yeah for me its a lil different... i have to have sound in my ltsp client
<spacey_ki> platos, i need that as well
<spacey_ki> platos, wine can't output to esd?
<platos> well it can
<platos> but not with the old packaged version
<spacey_ki> platos, i just installed the version on winehq.org
<platos> and with the new one i got a black screen
<spacey_ki> that package works
<platos> on your thin-client?
<spacey_ki> although its an external repo
<spacey_ki> didn't try on the thin client yet
<spacey_ki> will try that next week
<spacey_ki> figured it should work
<platos> yeah it worked on my server as well
<platos> but not on the thin cilent
<Burgwork> spacey, those source packages are the same as the packages in Ubuntu
<platos> *client
<Burgwork> spacey_ki, ^
<spacey_ki> Burgwork, got the binary:P
<spacey_ki> Burgwork, same as in dapper maybe
<Burgwork> spacey_ki, yes, in dapper
<spacey_ki> but i don't use dapper in production
<Burgwork> the ones in breezy are the same source packages, just old releases of wine
<spacey_ki> yeah 
<spacey_ki> but figured last half year of wine devel was not something to miss
<Burgwork> not really
<\sh> the wine packages I repackage are the original sources of winehq :) so don't blame me :)
#edubuntu 2006-01-18
<TOZTWO> Does anyone here know if there are any edubuntu labs in Texas?
<TOZTWO> Howdy arkan0x.
<arkan0x> :O
<TOZTWO> I'm having trouble understanding how sudo works.
<jsgotangco> TOZTWO, think of it as admin access where you are are only allowed to do certain things with each line of command instaed of the whole session
<mhz> hi all
<TOZTWO> Is there a way to log into a sudo enabled account?
<TOZAFK> thanx, gotta run.
<mhz> Seveas: knock knock
<mhz> "neo, wake up"
<juliux> ogra_ibook, the thinclients are on the way to you
<magus_> hi
<ogra_ibook> yay
<ogra_ibook> did anybody notice that we surpassed OpenBSD on distrowatch this month ?
<Yagisan> ogra_ibook: no. but when we surpass ubuntu, we'll all know about it
<ogra_ibook> lol
<highvoltage> hehe.
<mhz> ogra_ibook: i am in nirvana reading this; ttp://www.dsslive.org/mediawiki/index.php/Notes:Article
<mhz> very clear and enlightening doc
<mhz> about live cd making
<mhz> ogra_ibook: so far, it all indicates that in order to make a solution for older hardware or less powerful ones, the best desktops following freedesktop.org standards are IceWM and XFCE
<mhz> now, the very important question is: will I work on just customizing a look and feel for Edubuntu apps (KDE and little GNOME)
<mhz> or
<mhz> will I have to also recompile stuff more optimized for hardware specifics and then also take advante of the process and make apps. independant of GNOME or KDE libs
<mhz> and so, maybe not use all Edubuntu apps
<mhz> ogra_ibook: those questions, for me have no answers yet in my head
<mhz> The idea is to ease the load of servers (remember we usually use desktops boxes 'to work as servers' and so HW is not that powerfull)
<mhz> and in case, some schools need it, also make that edubuntu-light installable on PII, 300 MHz
<ogra_ibook> as ltsp system ? 
<mhz> for server? yes
<ogra_ibook> wont work 
<mhz> ?
<mhz> PII are the 'cases' of clients
<ogra_ibook> how many clients do you want to attach to this ? 
<ogra_ibook> ah
<ogra_ibook> thats just fine 
<mhz> usually, PIV, 700 or 1GHz can be 'servers' here
<mhz> but my main question is what to choose? Edubuntu apps (with all current dependencies to KDE and GNOME) or Apps with the minimum dependencies possible, which would then require I compile again
<mhz>  but then it wouldn't be 'edubuntu' :) because maybe many apps, will not be the ones in real Edubuntu
<mhz> and my other concern is that currently, Xubuntu has no roadmap or organization of anykind
<ogra_ibook> does it need one ? 
<ogra_ibook> its there and will be in main and completely supported with dapper 
<ogra_ibook> thats mainly the roadmap
<mhz> ogra_ibook: so far, no one knows what to do, what's next, when to discuss stuff or who decides over what
<mhz> ahhhhh
<mhz> ogra_ibook: and regarding my former important question?
<mhz> any suggestion?
<ogra_ibook> thats your decision if yyou want to take the burden to make your own distro 
<mhz> nope, I dont
<mhz> you know that
<ogra_ibook> keep in mind that you have to recompile and offer every security upgrade 
<mhz> but i have no clue which way will actually be lighter
<mhz> i've no clue if taking dependency away will actually be lighter for enduser with old hw
<ogra_ibook> you can leave out certain parts, some apps might have special options to drop stuff
<ogra_ibook> but i doubt the gain isnt worth the manpower you have to put into thatz
<ogra_ibook> you dont take dependencys away
<ogra_ibook> you need to disable the app functionallity, that will make the dependency go 
<ogra_ibook> so you'll end up with smalle but less functional apps
<mhz> and how do i know or 'preview' that before hand?
<mhz> and will that mean 'recompile' anyways?
<ogra_ibook> you cant *preview* it
<ogra_ibook> you need to compile the app and measure the difference
<mhz> okis
<mhz> thx for the time
<TOZTWO> If there is no root account, then how do I copy, move, modify files where the owner is root?
<ogra_ibook> sudo cp /source/file/path /target/file/path
<ogra_ibook> or replace cp with mv, gedit 
<TOZTWO> ok, thanx.
<TOZTWO> I'm selling an edubuntu lab to a local church, and I need to know if edubuntu can serve 10 clients from a quad PII 233 with 1 Gb of ram.
<mhz> dubt it
<mhz> doubt it
<ogra_ibook> thats a very small server
<TOZTWO> Yeah, it's old.
<ogra_ibook> you have to compute like that: 128MB per client + 256MB for the server 
<ogra_ibook> i have no exact numbers about CPU power, but 233Mhz is clearly to small for 10 clients
<TOZTWO> How about a Dual PIII 700?
<mhz> TOZTWO: I have tested a 700 Mhz + 256 Ram box as a server with 3 thin laptops
<mhz> it worked fine until firefox was run by 2 clients
<mhz> :)\
<TOZTWO> hmm....
<mhz> but that was not dual
<mhz> nor had the ram you mention
<TOZTWO> How much better would a dual run?
<mhz> no idea yet for me
<mhz> but it would be cool to know :)
<TOZTWO> I might have to go with a quad PIII just to be sure.
<ogra_ibook> in any case your firefox experience was MEM related
<mhz> ogra_ibook: yes
<mhz> TOZTWO: you can always try using a lighter desktop
<ogra_ibook> i'd guess ~1000Mhz would be fine for 10 clients ...
<mhz> (other than GNOME or KDE)
<TOZTWO> I found a place locally that disopses of old hardware(recycle center), and I can get really cheap hardware.
<mhz> TOZTWO: yup, I am trying old hardware here
<mhz> so the investment takes place and admin time at one single machine: the server
<TOZTWO> Yup. These folks can't afford a traditional lab.
<mhz> TOZTWO: it all depends on what apps the 10 clients would be running
<mhz> TOZTWO: i am there too :)
<TOZTWO> Everything that edubuntu has, OO, Logo, Games, Gcompris, Firfox.
<TOZTWO> mhz: You are setting up a small lab for someone?
<mhz> so far, a Pentium or AMD (not celeron, I'd say) of 1 GHz or more, plus the RAM claculus ogra_ibook metioned
<mhz> would do for 10 clients
<ogra_ibook> TOZTWO, i think if you can put two 1ghz CPUs and 1.5G of ram into this dual 700 machine, you are fine
<mhz> and if ram can't be 128 p/client, then I'd encourage you to consider using XFCE desktop
<mhz> instead of GNOME
<Velmont> Or ROX? :] 
<mhz> TOZTWO: i am testing some 'layouts' for schools with low resources
<mhz> Vego: AFAIKm ROX is not a 'desktop manager'
<mhz> Velmont: : AFAIKm ROX is not a 'desktop manager'
<mhz> sorry
<mhz> :)
<Velmont> mhz: They have a desktop and filemanager at least ;)
<mhz> TOZTWO: usually, 1 server and 7 to 13 clients
<mhz> Velmont: indeed
<TOZTWO> mhz: I've found that for schools, there are way too many hoops to jump through, so I'm doing churches instead.
<mhz> TOZTWO: good idea!
<TOZTWO> No one ever calls me for computer help unless it to fix thier spyware problems.......
<TOZTWO> I'm getting very tired of doing all of this reactive maintenance..........
<ogra_ibook> put a modem on the ltsp server, then you can dial in from home to fix stuff ;)
<TOZTWO> So I figure with edubuntu, I can take a more proactive role, and teach people how to use a computer..........
<TOZTWO> Then I can have a more constructive role, rather than a maintenance role.
<TOZTWO> When I build this lab, I'm going to document how we do it, pictures, how-to, hurdles, prices, and then share.
<lguerra> TOZTWO: very good
<juliux> hi littlepaul 
<littlepaul> hi juliux 
<littlepaul> juliux, i sent you the required email
<juliux> littlepaul, thxs
<juliux> hi mherweg 
<lucasvo> [Excess Flood] 
<lucasvo> *g*
<littlepaul> ping lucasvo
<lucasvo> littlepaul: pong
<littlepaul> lucasvo, do you allready know http://ikhaya.ubuntuusers.de/ ?
<lucasvo> no
<lucasvo> littlepaul: what is it about, a blog?
<littlepaul> yes
<littlepaul> a community blog
<littlepaul> maby you want to write someting about edubuntu
<lucasvo> littlepaul: hm, I am not a very talented writer
<lucasvo> but, yes, I can try
<littlepaul> lucasvo, good content is important not talent as an writer :)
<littlepaul> lucasvo, littlepaul AT ubuntu-de DOT org
<lucasvo> ok
<littlepaul> in the blog there are some further interesting articles
<littlepaul> lucasvo, i have anoter link for you :)
<littlepaul> http://verein.ubuntu-de.org/
<lucasvo> django :P
<littlepaul> right :)
<Shodane> hi
<Burgwork> hello
<Burgwork> what brings you here?
<Shodane> i was told i could get info about edubuntu here
<Burgwork> indeed you can
<Shodane> great ;)
<Burgwork> there is also #edubuntu-de is you want to chat in german
<Shodane> is there documentation for edubuntu? can't find it on your website...
<Burgwork> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation
<Shodane> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook/Chapter_8_-_Server_Configuration
<Shodane> hmmm
<Burgwork> the cookbook is very much under development right now
<Burgwork> and they are always looking for more people to help them
<Shodane> hehe
<Shodane> ok
<Shodane> what kind of server do i need for approx. 15 clients?
<Shodane> i've got an old computer somewhere but it's not great, i guess
<mhz_lunch> Shodane: and you can also get info at #edubuntu-es :)
<Shodane> sorry, no spanish ;)
<ogra_ibook> Shodane, 128M per client and 256M for the server itself
<mhz> ogra_ibook: we shold get that on the topic ;)
<Shodane> i was told there's a german guy developing here? from the eifel?
<ogra_ibook> Shodane, CPU, as fast as you can and not below 1Ghz i'd say
<ogra_ibook> yupp, thats me
<Shodane> hmm. it's probably fast enough then
<ogra_ibook> mhz, sadly its to limited to add such long sentences
<mhz> yup
<Burgwork> ogra_ibook, the install notes seem to indicate taht the default install includes a GUI
<Shodane> delete the part about install notes ;)
<ogra_ibook> Burgundavia, which install notes ? 
<Shodane> or write it into the install notes
<ogra_ibook> ours ? 
<Shodane> it doesn't
<Burgwork> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuInstallNotes
<Shodane> ogra_ibook: dholbach sends me
<ogra_ibook> ah, hi :)
<Shodane> hi :)
<ogra_ibook> Burgundavia, wher does it seem to be gui driven ? 
<Burgwork> ogra_ibook, if you read the <enter> part and then the server part, it seems to indicate taht the <enter> install method installs a gui
<Burgwork> it should probably explicitily say whether or not it does
<ogra_ibook> it installs a gui
<ogra_ibook> by pressing enter the default install will install an Edubuntu-desktop and prepare an Edubuntu LTSP server
<ogra_ibook> whats difficult with this sentence ? 
<Burgwork> hmm, I will think of some better wording
<ogra_ibook> i like it ... but offer something better :)
<ogra_ibook> note that i fight for the "server" install to be renamed in dapper 
<Burgwork> I will. I rarely bitch abut things that I am not willing to get fixed myself
<ogra_ibook> its a minimal install and should be named accordingly
<ogra_ibook> i'd also rather name "workstation" as "standalone workstation" but that appears to long to me
<Burgwork> yes, it is too long
<mhz> neurogeek: ping
<TOZAFK> The server install has no gui?
<TOZTWO> Can you administer from on of the clients?
<Burgwork> ogra_ibook, so the assumption is that the teacher is working on the server itself?
<neurogeek> mhz, pong
<neurogeek> mhz, how is it going?
<ogra_ibook> TOZTWO, the server install only installs a 100MB system, its only if you want to tailor the whole system yourself ..
<ogra_ibook> TOZTWO, its something different to the default install that installs a edubuntu server and a edubuntu desktop
<ogra_ibook> Burgwork, ltsp needs a installed desktop
<ogra_ibook> Burgwork, you must have something you can log in to ;)#
<ogra_ibook> Burgwork, having GDM running on the server does no harm either ... 
<TOZTWO> I think I'll install the server version on my duron 900 and connect from my laptop to play around a bit.
<Shodane> is gimp included? can't find it in the list
<ogra_ibook> and indeed you can log in and to your admin tasks either on the server or from a client through the gui
<ogra_ibook> Shodane, we include everything a default ubuntu brings
<TOZTWO> GIMP is included.
<ogra_ibook> so ooo2, gimp etc are there by default
<Shodane> ah, ok. so i can choose the locale as well?
<ogra_ibook> sure
<mhz> neurogeek: sorry, fine, thax. (I had disabled the 'beep' while I slept :D )
<ogra_ibook> we support all 90 languages ubuntu supports
<Burgwork> ogra_ibook, true, hadn't thought of that. My inexperience in thin clients shows
<mhz> neurogeek: there is a venzuelan initiative I'd say you and your boss could take a look at
<ogra_ibook> Burgwork, i doubt the product of your company works without desktop install on the central machine ;)
<Burgwork> ogra_ibook, given we don't have a server and use X to do multihead, yes
<ogra_ibook> :)
<neurogeek> mhz, tell me..
<mhz> neurogeek: ttp://www.dsslive.org/mediawiki/index.php/Notes:Article
<mhz> neurogeek: not that, sorry
<neurogeek> ogra_ibook, how are you?
<neurogeek> :D
<mhz> neurogeek: http://educacion.solve.net.ve/index.php/Portada
<ogra_ibook> neurogeek, fine, thanks
<mhz> neurogeek: http://educacion.solve.net.ve/index.php/EDUVEN_Propuestas
<neurogeek> mhz, yeah.. i know about that... 
<mhz> neurogeek: okis
<neurogeek> mhz, solve is a brand new institution for free software in Venezuela
<Shodane> can the server be administrated via web interface?
<ogra_ibook> nope
<neurogeek> but .. there are a lot of "articuladores" (as you'd say) in there.. so.. proyects always ends before their start
<mhz> neurogeek: right now there are two things I am using 70% of my time (Feria de Tecnologia Libre y Educacion + Workshops and Courses on TicEdu for Teachers)
<mhz> neurogeek: hehehehehhee
<ogra_ibook> Shodane, but from every thin client 
<mhz> damn!
<Shodane> ogra_ibook: is nfs enabled by default? can i add users via batch job? (i've been trying to do that with windows, that's not that easy ;))
<mhz> neurogeek: in Pereira, Colombia, Luis Guerra is also helping me to maybe have some sort of Ubuntu Tour or maybe even the same Feria in similar dates
<mhz> neurogeek: would you be interested too? would Strusberg be into it?
<neurogeek> mhz, of course... absolutely.. count on that
<neurogeek> when would that be??
<mhz> neurogeek: for Chile, we are thinking of March-April
<mhz> for Colombia, maybe same dates
<neurogeek> that would be nice
<neurogeek> yeah.. count on that
<mhz> Our dream/goal is Chile -> Colombia -> Venezuela -> Argentina -> Brazil
<mhz> and FLISOL is also near that dates
<mhz> and there's a GNOME event in Brazil too by those dates
<mhz> so... Why not do a very VERY intensive agenda
<mhz> to kick off 2006!
<neurogeek> mhz, yeah.. i think i will be in FLISOL this year.. 
<mhz> and have a kind of LA power show
<mhz> :)
<neurogeek> mhz, excellent.. we (RS and me) are very interested in those things.. and better if we do it together .. the better
<ogra_ibook> Shodane, nfs is the base of ltsp, so it is indeed enabled, adding users from a list would require a bit of shell scripting 
<mhz> neurogeek: so far, only Luis Guerra and I have been talking to people in each country
<mhz> neurogeek: i am actually working at this very moment on a doc about it
<neurogeek> great
<TOZTWO> OMG!
<mhz> so, I guees I'll have it done in 2 ours
<Burgwork> ogra_ibook, however, there are plans to integrate our stuff with ltsp
<mhz> hours
<mhz> neurogeek: for you and RS to read it
<neurogeek> mhz: ah.. BTW i haven't forgotten about the moin stuff.. i've done some things but haven't had the time to finish it.. i'll be on it soon enough
<TOZTWO> mhz: You speack Spanish/Portugese?
<mhz> neurogeek: thx
<mhz> TOZTWO: I am Chilean, and neurogeek is Venezuelan
<neurogeek> when you finish it.. send it to me to my mail
<mhz> :D
<neurogeek> TOZTWO, yeah.. Spanish
<mhz> okis
<mhz> TOZTWO: and we have #edubuntu-es
<mhz> :D
<TOZTWO> After I get my first lab up and running, I might be doing some labs in Mexico.
<mhz> TOZTWO: wow!
<mhz> cool
<neurogeek> great!!
<mhz> neurogeek: we also have a ML
<mhz> and I am wiking info about Edubuntu-es and Ubuntu for Chile in ubuntu-cl.org
<mherweg> hi sven-tek
<sven-tek> hi martin
<mhz> neurogeek: tienen algun curso en Moodle or Claroiline I could take a look ?
<mhz> neurogeek: ?
<mhz_wiking> neurogeek: ?
<Shodane> ogra_ibook: re. can users be installed via batch job?
<ogra_ibook> yes, with a little shellscript
<Shodane> is it documented?
<ogra_ibook> nope
<ogra_ibook> but basically you can do it with a handfull of lines, i'm pretty sure google will give you a lot of hits for a shellscript you can use
<mhz_wiking> Shodane: I am sure there's a unix command to do that
<mhz_wiking> can you wait for me (5 to 10 mins)
<ogra_ibook> not for a list of users
<spacey_ki> if you have so many users you might want to use ldap
<Shodane> i've never understood ldap...
<spacey_ki> still need shell script to add users from a list ofcourse:)
* mhz_wiking read a book with this solution from list of users
<ogra_ibook> and likely some lines longer :)
<Shodane> if the users are just regular users, i can write a script myself. thought they'd be some kinda special users
* mhz_wiking is looking it up on the book right now
<spacey_ki> why are they special?
<spacey_ki> or whats special about them
<Shodane> well nothing apparently
<mhz_wiking> Shodane: found it
<mhz_wiking> Page 118 on Linux Cookbook, by Oreilly
<Shodane> ok, thx
<mhz_wiking> 'mass_passwd'
<ogra_ibook> we'll have tools for such stuff in the future, if more developers jump in
<mhz_wiking> 'mass_useradd'
<Shodane> hm, i'll try it out first ;)
<mhz_wiking> $ sh mass_useradd < newusers > newlogins.txt
<ogra_ibook> mhz_wiking, and what *is* mass_useradd ? 
<ogra_ibook> you also need the program/script ...
<mhz_wiking> yup
<mhz_wiking> it's a script there, in the book :)
<mhz_wiking> I ignore if it's available somewhere in a repo
<mhz_wiking> I hope so
<mhz_wiking> but many oreilly books are available via on line
<Shodane> http://www.tuxcomputing.com/cookbook/mass_useradd
<Shodane> there's one
* mhz_wiking will check if its the same
<Shodane> k
<mhz_wiking> or else, I could write those 20 or so lines at night time
<mhz_wiking> (chilean night time :) )
<Shodane> actually, what i'd prefer is an empty password and a dialog which forces the user to set a password at first login, like windows does...
<Shodane> is chilean night time longer than elsewhere?
<mhz_wiking> hehehe
<mhz_wiking> nope
<Shodane> =)
<mhz_wiking> Shodane: well, the book has a section for that case too
* mhz_wiking loves that book, full of tips
<mhz_wiking> Shodane: it seems the script is exactly the one in the url!
<mhz_wiking> good
<Shodane> cool
<Shodane> how about the other section then? maybe that one's online as well
<mhz_wiking> heheh
<mhz_wiking> okis
* mhz_wiking looking it up on the book
<Shodane> 44 euros, that's too much for me right now
<mhz_wiking> Shodane: I'd bet it is available on PDF
<Shodane> dunno
<ogra_ibook> make sure that the script doesnt start at UID 1000, thats the admin user you created on install
<mhz_wiking> Shodane: after you run useradd, simply run $ passwd -e the_user
<mhz_wiking> that will expire the password at first login, forcing the user to change it
* mhz_wiking gets back to wiking
<mhz_wiking> Shodane: i hope that helps somehow
<Shodane> yeah, i'll just set "hello" as the pw :)
<Shodane> i guess i know enough for now, thanks. i'll be back as soon as i've installed the server :)
<mhz_wiking> good luck
<mhz_wiking> southfoxargentin: bienvendio
#edubuntu 2006-01-19
<hetul_> I installed Nvidia driver and seted up two screen, one is Monitor and other is TV, Now i see screen with their own menu on monitor and tv, but i don't know how i can jump from this side to other, any help please? thanks in advance
<Burgwork> hetul_, you need #ubuntu
<hetul_> well, i'm using edubuntu
<hetul_> well, i'll stop by at #ubuntu, thanks
<Lord_Athur> hi all
<jouni__m> Lord_Arthur hi 
<Lord_Athur> hi jouni__m 
<oupsla> Helo, do you know minimum hardware for 4-6 old thin-clients (1024Ko S3 graphic card, 54Mo ram, 10Mbps eth, pentium) server to run Ooo firefox gimp ... frozen-bubble whith ugly impatient kids ?
<oupsla> (ltsp server)
<TOZTWO> How many processors does edubuntu support?
<Yagisan> G'day juliux
<juliux> hi Yagisan 
<Yagisan> juliux: I've decided to make mhz cry >:) I'll be installing plone for my business website
<juliux> Yagisan, what is plone?
<juliux> Yagisan, a cms ?
<Yagisan> juliux: yep, a cms
<juliux> Yagisan, but not free?
<Yagisan> juliux: http://plone.org/ it's in universe
<juliux> Yagisan, ah ok, i will test cmss if my new server his here
<juliux> Yagisan, and if i have time
<Yagisan> juliux: I'll run in on a duron 850 until I find a decent provider - I don't get high levels of traffic (except to my ubuntu repo anyway)
<juliux> Yagisan, at the moment my server has 1Ghz and only 256mb ram and no raid but this is my new server http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5849576503&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
<juliux> Yagisan, and if the sever his here i will test ubuntu on it and only for testing edubuntu
<Yagisan> juliux: nice. I've only got 233Mhz, and 300Mhz systems to test on (and vmware, but that isn't always the same as real hardware)
<juliux> Yagisan, this will be my new webserver
<Yagisan> juliux: I need business to pick up before I can get systems like that + decent hosting
<juliux> Yagisan, to rent a rootserver isnt very expansive in germany
<juliux> Yagisan, my root server costs 20/month
<juliux> Yagisan, and i have 20 domains on it and everybody paid 1-2 for it
<Yagisan> juliux: heh - maybe I should get my site hosted in germany then
<juliux> Yagisan, why not
<juliux> Yagisan, i can give you an account on my new server if you want
<Yagisan> night all
<juliux> gn8
<alex_> hi
<ompaul> alex_, :)
<alex_> thanks
<alex_> just did a right click on the link you sent.
<alex_> :)
<ompaul> alex_, I will leave it with you as I do not have the answer for your quesiton
<alex_> no problem, and again thanks!
<alex_> hellow
<alex_> is anyone here?
<alex_> hello
<alex_> hello
<alex_> no one is here?
<ompaul> alex_, they may be busy I know a good few of these names when they are around they should be well able to help your quesiton asking all the time does nothing
<ompaul> alex_, the normal format in irc is that you ask your question and wait for an answer - if no answer you wait 20 minutes unless there is no other traffic all all
<alex_> o.k.
<alex_> thank you..
<alex_> does anyone know how to solve the problem of clients not booting from the tftp server of an edubuntu server
<ompaul> no problem, with a bit of luck you get the answer you need
<Lord_Athur> hi all
<TOZTWO> Edubuntu Server comes with the SMP Kernel? 
<lucasvo> TOZAFK: It is the same as in ubuntu
#edubuntu 2006-01-20
<TOZTWO> HEHE!
<TOZTWO> I've never tried ubuntu.
<mhz> ?
<TOZTWO> I was asking anout the SMP Kernel for edubuntu.
<Burgundavia> TOZTWO, edubuntu, kubuntu and ubuntu shrae the same kernel
<Burgundavia> in fact, they share everything. You can install any on any of the others
<TOZTWO> Does the kernel support multiple processors?
<TOZTWO> I mean the server version.
<Burgundavia> yep
<TOZTWO> COO! I thought that I was gonna have to switch them out.
* TOZTWO is a Linux n00b
<jair_11> Hello guys I would like to know if is possible to get the list of games that edubuntu come with?? Proably I can download them to any other Linux distribution?
<\sh> jair_11: all games which are shipped or downloadable for ubuntu/kubuntu are available for edubuntu as well.
<Yagisan> jair_11: off the top of my head I think it has the kdeedu stuff
<\sh> oh you mean educational games? well..actually the answer is still correct :)
<jair_11> ok I will check the kde web site and the gnome as welll.
<jair_11> thanks
* #edubuntu  [freenode-info]  please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<juliux> morning ogra_ibook 
* irvin is away: I'm busy
* Yagisan waves at jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> morning
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> 1am gnome doc love
<jsgotangco> day
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: I'm about to drop off soon. almost 4am
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: what looks better http://eyagi.bpa.nu/~jamie/index.en.html
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: or http://eyagi.bpa.nu:8081/eyagi
<jsgotangco> firefox didn't like your navi bars
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: which one ? IE hates the css on the first one
<jsgotangco> the plone one looks neat
<jsgotangco> the other one looks terrible
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: you can be so cruel :'( First one was my layout draft
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: I love my colours though
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: all set up out of the box on ubuntu :)
<jsgotangco> Yagisan, yeah, i can see the effort, the plone one is being lazy eh
<lucasvo> BUG: soft lockup detected on CPU#0!
<ogra> thats normal
<lucasvo> I get on edubuntu flight2 liecd
<lucasvo> and I have to wait afterwards?
<ogra> yup, it boot very slow
<lucasvo> :(
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: the plone one is called "easy to translate"
<lucasvo> Yagisan: the plone one is better, indeed, but I ouldn't use it
<lucasvo> use less colours in the other ones
<Yagisan> lucasvo: why ? (other then the fact I only have put the welcome page up)
<lucasvo> Yagisan: because everybody uses Plone
<lucasvo> I mean the design
<lucasvo> ogra: should I still wait?
<ogra> yup
<Yagisan> lucasvo: oh - I have no intention of keeping the stock design. I rather like the colourful version actually
<ogra> it can take up to 10 min with this CD ... 
<Yagisan> lucasvo: I'm just impressed I got it up an running now
<lucasvo> ok
<lucasvo> Yagisan: good
<ogra> works flawless on the G4 here ... but takes ages on the G3 of my Gf
<lucasvo> ogra: and the ltsp will be slow as well? 
<ogra> did you plan to run ltsp from a liveCD ?
<ogra> you only need it to bootstrap the chroot ... 
<lucasvo> no
<lucasvo> ok, now it is doing something
<lucasvo> 14min
<lucasvo> Failed to start the X server...
<ogra> :(
<ogra> but console is enough for the stuff you want 
<lucasvo> ifconfig
<lucasvo> (no aoutput)
<lucasvo> ifconfig eth0 up
<ogra> nope
<lucasvo> eth0: ERROR
<lucasvo> Nosuch device
<ogra> you are most likely missing the module
<ogra> else it would have been brought up
<lucasvo> which one?
<ogra> no idea
<ogra> you should probably take a ubuntu liveCD
<lucasvo> hm, I don't have any livecd
<ttaulman> anybody running edubuntu thick clients?
<Tarantulafudge> how do ltsp actually work
<Tarantulafudge> does it provide monitoring solutions ?
<ogra> Tarantulafudge, the breezy ThinClientHowto wikipage has a description at the top
<Tarantulafudge> so it would be realistic to use flash drives
<ogra> for what ? 
<ogra> you dont need *any* drives in the clients 
<Tarantulafudge> oh its a livecd?
<Tarantulafudge> or is it a network boot type thing
<TOZII> Network boot.
<Tarantulafudge> cool
<TOZII> Your network cards need to be network bootable.....
<Tarantulafudge> is it possible to monitor the xsessions? like with syncroneyes?
<ogra> ttaulman, you can install a full desktop system in the thin client chroot and only use the netboot functionallity from ltsp
<ogra> it needs a bit of tweakage though
<ogra> Tarantulafudge, we have student-control-panel in universe ... its unfinished, but you can see/end the running ltsp sessions with it
<TOZII> Ogra: if your network cards do not support network boot, you can use a floppy to boot from the network, right?
<ogra> yup
<Tarantulafudge> ogra: and snapshots from the desktop?
<ogra> TOZII, http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/BootingClientsWithoutPxe
<ttaulman> ogra, not sure, have full edubuntu workstation on new lab computers. using ldap to authenticate and nfs shares for /home directories
<ogra> Tarantulafudge, not yet .... s-c-p is planned to have a plugin system, so people will easily be able to extend it by such functions
<ogra> ttaulman, sure thats possible 
<Tarantulafudge> ogra: ok, its important to know whats happening
<ttaulman> ogra, it is working, but i have lost sound on the client side
<Tarantulafudge> is there a library type application available?
<ogra> there is alexandria, but i never worked with it or know about the package status
<ogra> ttaulman, thats a breezy install ? 
<ttaulman> ogra, yes
<Tarantulafudge> what about a barcode solution?
<ogra> Tarantulafudge, there are certainly apps out there for such tasks on linux, they will most likely also work on edubuntu, but please understand that this is not in our focus yet ...
<ogra> currently the main focus for edubunntu lies in classrooms, if we match that target satisfying, then we'll go for bigger tasks like school management, library management etc...
<TOZII> Tarantulafudge: check out http://www.schooltool.org/
<blue-frog> ogra I have rewrote my script following your advice (script to automate samba-ldap server installation amongst other), I need to be working on samba-ldap management now that I have found out how to assign same desktop properties to users using /etc/skel1/etc/skel2 and son on. Now my problem is am not a programmer, I knew nothing about bash when I started a few weeks ago meaning I know what I should in most of the cases but I don't know how to tranlaste
<blue-frog>  that in code. As for using debconf for touching smb.conf and other files, I'd like to but still same programming problem. Is there a way I could work with a real programmer who could translate my script in packages/debconf... but who don't have the time to think about everything. I could "prepare" the way..
<ogra> blue-frog, try to find someone with packaging knowledge in #ubuntu-motu 
<blue-frog> what is motu?
<ogra> masters of the universe ;)
<ogra> the universe package maintainers
<TOZII> =)
<ogra> you will need dpkg-divert for installing different smb.conf or similar changes to make that clean ...
<ogra> else it will always be a mess ...
<ogra> its very complicated to do it right 
<blue-frog> there again you talk chinese to me...
<P3L|C4N0> hi people
<TOZII> Hi.
<lucasvo> ogra: I am stuck in the edubuntu installation
<lucasvo> same error, edxt3 filesystem creation failed
<lucasvo> it is some crap with G3 or I don't know
* mhz feels sorry he can't help
<lucasvo> mhz: np
<lucasvo> svg?
<mhz_SVG> lucasvo: yes, I am working on some SVG stuff :)
<mhz_SVG> but for DSS live project 
<lucasvo> dss?
<lucasvo> svg is cool
<lucasvo> jomla?
<lucasvo> http://forum.joomla.org/index.php?topic=21736.0;wap2
<mhz_SVG> lucasvo: http://www.dsslive.org/mediawiki/index.php/Home
<mhz_SVG> Debian|Ubuntu based project, a framework to make your own metadistros in very few steps
<lucasvo> cool
* mhz_SVG is working on the logo, bakcground, gfxboot stuff
#edubuntu 2006-01-21
<Yagisan> mhz !
<mhz_cooking> Yagisan: Maese Yagi san, how are you?
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: tired
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: something to show you before I fall alseep
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: http://eyagi.bpa.nu:8081/eyagi
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: almost finished now
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: today is fun (not), put that in as the main site, and still keep access to my repos
<mhz_cooking> Yagisan: nice
<mhz_cooking> plone is good
<mhz_cooking> does it use CSS for theming?
<mhz_cooking> if so, please use a more personalized one :D
<mhz_cooking> at least for colors
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: it was the translation features that won me over. Yes, it does use CSS - I've been putting my colours in
<mhz_cooking> ohhh
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: need to finish it later
<mhz_cooking> i noticed you can choose, good.
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: old site http://eyagi.bpa.nu/~jamie/
<mhz_cooking> Yagisan: i am proud you got it
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: It was a lot of head beating - but I so needed a decent translation system
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: hint hint spanish
<mhz_cooking> indeed
<mhz_cooking> hehehehe
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: the japanese flag actually works :)
<mhz_cooking> oh yes, 
<mhz_cooking> Yagisan: congrats!
* mhz_cooking BBS
<Yagisan> mhz_cooking: no worries - I'll be in bed soon, but I'll probably catch you later today
<lucasvo> I have a strange problem with nfs/tftp
<lucasvo> when I start an LTSP client, after there wasn't started up a client for about 12h, I get the error: can't access job controlfile ...
<lucasvo> and I have to reboot, the second time, it works
<lucasvo> I would like to mirror  6.04 i386 locally, how can I do that?
<lucasvo> I mean apt-server
<juliux> lucasvo, debmirror
<juliux> lucasvo, search at wiki.ubuntuusers.de for debmirror
<Yagisan> lucasvo: I use apt-cacher myselft. debmirror needs a > 300Mhz machine
<lucasvo> Yagisan: why?
<lucasvo> I would like to share it over a webserver
<lucasvo> just add a vhosyt ?
<Yagisan> lucasvo: I put debmirror on a p2 300, and it slowed down. debmirror was unzipping every .deb to check them
<lucasvo> Yagisan: I don't use the machine anyway
<Yagisan> lucasvo: well, it went for 15-20 mins for an update to 3hrs
<Yagisan> lucasvo: apt-cacher is faster, but needed every single system to have the sources.list adjusted to use it
<Yagisan> lucasvo: debmirror is set-and-forget (on a faster box)
* Yagisan needs to get some sleep
<lucasvo> yeah, in that case it seems to be the best
<Yagisan> lucasvo: if I had a faster box - and I did it again, debmirror
<Yagisan> anyway - good night all
<lucasvo> Yagisan: good night
<risc-> Hi
<risc-> anyone knows how to install mplayer/xine/other dvd player (gnome) on edubuntu?
<ogra> the same way as in ubuntu
<ogra> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/RestrictedFormats
<risc-> thanks
<risc-> and are all modules compiled for the edubuntu kernel?
<risc-> cause i have a broadcom pcmcia card
<risc-> and it gets detected by lspci, but doesn't seem to be configured (eth1?)
<ogra> below the desktop, edubuntu, kubuntu and ubuntu ate 100% identical
<ogra> s/ate/are
<ogra> so all modules you find in ubuntu are in edubuntu as well 
<ogra> if nothing works, you can modt likely resort to the included ndiswrapper 
<ogra> s/modt/mosT/
<risc-> ah nice thanks
<risc-> he ? what? ndiswrapper?
<risc-> btw first time i use *ubuntu
<risc-> installed it for a 10 year old
<risc-> :)
<ogra> for the base system all the ubuntu documentation applies ...
<risc-> ic, k
<risc-> i'll check that
<risc-> thanks
<ogra> if something is missing, feel free to come back ;)
<ogra> did you read the EdubuntuInstallNotes page ? 
<risc-> not yet
<risc-> just installed it
<risc-> and messed arround a bit
<risc-> i'm not used to this kind of linux
<risc-> like the user management
<risc-> scared me in the begin
<risc-> :)
<risc-> but I guess it's user friendly
<ogra> its not complicated ...
<risc-> nopz
<risc-> it's made simple
<risc-> very good project
<ogra> you have groups for everything in the system ...
<risc-> ah haven't seen that yet
<risc-> going to experiment some more later
<risc-> I'm used to slackware, freebsd & gentoo
<risc-> so it's something else :)
<ogra> if you want somebody to be able to work with a certain device for example, just make sure he is in the group that allows access to it
<risc-> k
<risc-> but it's most likely going to be a single user system
<ogra> the default gui tool to manage users brings already some profiles
<risc-> to keep a 10yrs old virus &
<risc-> spyware-free
<ogra> :)
<risc-> i'll check the docs
<risc-> thanks for the help :)
<ogra> check the InstallNotes page first 
<risc-> k
<risc-> will do
<ogra> i guess you might like rather a workstation install ...
<ogra> the defult install is a classroom server ;)
<risc-> ?
<risc-> (oh and is it possible to add languages for complete translation (french))
<risc-> default is classroom server?
<risc-> ah lol
<risc-> i'll reinstall it :)
<ogra> yes, use the language selector
<risc-> what does LTSP stand for
<risc-> ogra: yeah tried that, but french isn't available
<ogra> erm, sure is french available ... we support 90 languages
<ogra> ltsp is the Linux termional Server Project
<ogra> *terminal
<risc-> i tried, language selector
<risc-> in gnome
<ogra> you can use diskless clients on a server 
<risc-> and there were several english things
<risc-> and belgian (as i selected in the install)
<risc-> ah nice
<ogra> you have to check the two checkboxes for french
<ogra> then it will install the language packas
<risc-> checkboxes?
<ogra> in the language selector
<risc-> hold i'll check
<ogra> in your system menu ...
<risc-> there is only English
<risc-> in the language selector
<ogra> there is a huge list of 90 entries ...
<risc-> i have only one language
<risc-> English
<risc-> and in the list i got belgian
<ogra> with a checkbox for translations and one for input methods
<ogra> for each language
<risc-> one language here
<risc-> sorry man
<ogra> and you selected the right app ? 
<risc-> yeah
<ogra> not the one from the desktop settings
<risc-> language selector
<risc-> English X X
<risc-> where X is a checkbox
<risc-> and there is a menu on the right corner
<risc-> bottom-right
<risc-> other differences between server & workstation except for the server thingie
<risc-> N
<risc-> ?
<ogra> yes, a pulldown 
<risc-> and is it possible to also have the "Applications..." on top bar translated in for example french?
<ogra> the policy for the workstation version is highest security level with no open ports ... the server version has some additional server apps that have ports open 
<ogra> for home usage i'd always suggest the workstation 
<ogra> yes, sure
<ogra>  normally the language selector cares for that 
<ogra> :/
<risc-> it only has "english"
<risc-> probably that's the reason
<risc-> but I'll reinstall
<ogra> try to install the french language pack with synaptic and then try again with the selector
<risc-> nah, need to get rid of the server anyway
<ogra> yup
<risc-> btw why is DVD, mp3 etc locked?
<lucasvo> my eth interface doesn't seem to get recognized with dapper :PP
<ogra> risc-, ask the patent holders that forbid distribution
<ogra> lucasvo, thats normal ...
* ..[topic/#edubuntu:ogra] : The discussion channel for Edubuntu - the education version of Ubuntu, download: http://releases.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/5.10/ | Mailing List http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel | Wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org | Website http://www.edubuntu.org | MEETING: 11 Jan at 12:00 UTC | Read before installing: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuInstallNotes| edubuntu flight3 released !
<risc-> flight3?
<lucasvo> ogra: in the ibok g3?
<lucasvo> gaim is broken in dapper
<ogra> risc-, the third development release of the upcoming 6.04 release
<risc-> dapper?
<risc-> where can you get those?
<ogra> dapper is the internal name for the dev release 
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/dapper/
<ogra> i'll send out a release announcement tonight or tomorrow morning
<lucasvo> ogra: hm, I have just being downloading flight 2 :(
<lucasvo> ogra: can you give me the url?
<ogra> i just gave it
<ogra> and i told you that flight 3 is near last friday already ;)
<lucasvo> hm, I don't see
<lucasvo> it
<lucasvo> anybody know a good oss sysmonitor ?
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/dapper/
<lucasvo> tthanks
<lucasvo> I have horirible lag
<lucasvo> debmirror running
<lucasvo> no QoS
<lucasvo> it is even blockin gmy ssh
<dinger> greets
<tatyana> Hi, I accidently removed the bottom bar in my edubuntu, how can get i get it back?
<ogra> right click the top panel
<ogra> there is an option
<tatyana> it's not a panel
<tatyana> it's the taskbar thingie 
<ogra> then just add the taskbar back :)
<ogra> as well with a right click 
<tatyana> how? :s :p
<ogra> use the "add to panel" option
<tatyana> ah
<ogra> there is a "windowlist" item
<tatyana> ah k thx
<tatyana> thx :)
<risc-> ok ogra, works nice :)
<ogra> ;)
<tatyana> ogra, can you give me back the link with the dvdplayer thingie (wiki)?
<tatyana> and you can make the top bar of gnome transparant, can you also make the menu that comes from it (like applications) transparant? 
<tatyana> and than i'm going to stop asking before i irritate you :)
<tatyana> k :s
<tatyana> accidentely closed
<ogra> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/RestrictedFormats
<ogra> this one ? 
<mhz> yah, that is the best page regarding that issue
<tatyana> yup
<tatyana> mhm
<tatyana> if my pcmcia wifi card doesnt work, means its incompatible with the kernel or the module doesnt autoload?
<tatyana> 0000:02:00.0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4306 802.11b/g Wireless LAN Controller (rev 03)
<tatyana> lspci output..
#edubuntu 2006-01-22
<mhz> ogra: is it me or ubuntu apt repos are having trouble?
<crimsun> mhz: they work fine here (a.u.c. does at least)
<mhz> crimsun: thx
<mhz> :(
* mhz relaxing and triple checking
* Yagisan waves at mhz_BBS
<Yagisan> mhz, hows techocimento (I spelt it wrong again didn't I) going ?
<mhz> good and bad
<Yagisan> mhz: bad first
<mhz> good = it seems the best for us is to become a NGO
<mhz> :D
<mhz> sorry
<mhz> bad = not many people believed we want to do things right first, then carghe money for it
<mhz> :)
<Yagisan> I see
<Yagisan> mhz: I expect to lose my governemt grant soon
<mhz> wow
<mhz> sorry
<Yagisan> mhz: lower then expected takeup :(
<Yagisan> mhz: I divert them to voicemail so I don't hear them complain >:)
<mhz> Yagisan: i am truly sorry to hear that
<Yagisan> mhz: it's a combination of my wifes injury (hospital fuckup), and general lack of willingness to spend cash on the part of customers
<mhz> Yagisan: I have never been there yet, so I can hardly imagine how shitty this situation must be
<mhz> however, I do hope better things come up
<Yagisan> mhz: me too. I keep trying, that's why I invested so much time on http://eyagi.bpa.nu:8081/eyagi
<Yagisan> mhz: more interest from overseas, so I'll try to capture that
<Yagisan> mhz: like my rss feeds ?
<mhz> times out
<Yagisan> mhz: really ? damm, it works for me
<Yagisan> mhz: of course, I'm not using apache to cache it yet
<mhz> ooh
<mhz> it happens many times when it's loong distance calls :)
<Yagisan> mhz: fun times will happen tonight when I attempt to cache it with apache, and not kill my ubuntu repo.
* Yagisan has a lot of research to do
<Yagisan> mhz: did I mention that is the live machine too
<mhz> ooooooooohhhhh
<mhz> interesting and safer
* Yagisan wonders if I can use plone for online training
<mhz> Yagisan: I'd suggest Claroline, Moodle, or e-lame.org
<mhz> Yagisan: I'd suggest Claroline, Moodle, or e-lane.org
<Yagisan> mhz: thank you. 
<mhz> yw
<mhz> Yagisan: how do i let a user run CGI ?
<Yagisan> mhz: whuch www server, and are you sure you want to do it ?
<mhz> whuch?
<Yagisan> typo
<Yagisan> which
<Yagisan> mhz: or pretend I'm from new zealand, your choice
<mhz> lol
<Yagisan> :-P
<mhz> Yagisan: apache2
<Yagisan> mhz: just a sec (I don't run cgi myself - many security issues)
<Yagisan> mhz: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/howto/cgi.html look for user directories
<mhz> okis, thx
<Yagisan> mhz: do you know what cgi scripts are running ?
<mhz> just one
<mhz> moin.cgi
<Yagisan> mhz: you will need to track security on that. cgi is most easy way to take over a www server
<mhz> Yagisan: true
<mhz> Yagisan: have you ever kept an entire OS synced with rsync?
<Yagisan> mhz: no - it could make a perfect clone
* mhz needs to keep both desktop and laptop synced (applicactions recently installed, docs, logs, etc)
<Yagisan> mhz: but it would also have the same ip etc
<Yagisan> mhz: there is another app that lets you do that
<mhz> oh
<Yagisan> mhz: I forgot the name at the moment
<mhz> booh
<Yagisan> mhz: it works like a two way rsync
<mhz> Yagisan: and you have used qemu?
<mhz> iirc, Yagisan used quemu
<mhz> qemu
<Yagisan> mhz: yes - but not networking. qemu could not do what I wanted, so I haven't played with it for a while
<mhz> but did qemu let you test .iso files?
<Yagisan> mhz: i386 ?? yes - but it's not very fast
<mhz> oh
<Yagisan> mhz: it has a kqemu kernel modules that speeds it up, but that is not opensource
<mhz> bye all
<mwright1night> hello
<mwright1night> is local devices going to happen for dapper drake
<mwright1night> so the LTSP will be fully LTSP 4.2 compliant with the added ssh security
<juliux> i think local device support it not in dapper
<juliux> s/it/is/
<crimsun> it wasn't high enough priority, I don't think
<mwright1night> bummer
<mwright1night> I guess I'll stick with FC for another release
<mwright1night> and look towards a migration next time
<Burgundavia> mwright1night, not going to make it
<mwright1night> will it make it for the next release post dapper?
<Burgundavia> IANAD, but I would say yes
<Eghie_Work> spacey: jij had toch netbooting via Edubuntu voor elkaar?
<spacey_ki> Eghie_Work, met pxe wel ja
<spacey_ki> wat lukt er niet dan
<Eghie_Work> met netinstall?
<Eghie_Work> of. wat boot je dan via PXE?
<spacey_ki> netinstall?
<spacey_ki> dat is iets anders
<Eghie_Work> of boot jij een voor geinstalleerde edubuntu via PXE?
<spacey_ki> ik boot mijn thinclients via PXE
<Eghie_Work> aha
<Eghie_Work> ikke snap
<spacey_ki> dat wou jij ook of was je iets anders van plan?
<Eghie_Work> mjah, volgens Treenaks in #ubuntu-NL kon je me wel helpen, maar denk zelf eig niet
<Eghie_Work> nou ik ben bezig een school netwerk in te richten
<Eghie_Work> via PXE, boot je Ubuntu netinstall en dan wordt via Kickstart geinstalleerd op de client met wat postinstall scriptjes
<Eghie_Work> nu heb ik ook mirror gemaakt van de main repo van ubuntu
<spacey_ki> das iets anders idd
<Eghie_Work> alleen kan de installatie modules niet downloaden vanaf de mirror, apt werkt wel
<Eghie_Work> en anna geeft te weinig debug info om te kijken van wat er mis is :S
<Eghie_Work> PXE werkt zelf wel
<spacey_ki> ik moet naar me werk
<spacey_ki> laters
<spacey_ki> succes
<spacey_ki> zou zeggen als het gelukt is
<spacey_ki> prop het in de wiki
<spacey_ki> :)
<spacey_ki> ben wel benieuwd
<Eghie_Work> ok, zal ik doen 
<tatyana> hi, anyone here knows if the 0000:02:00.0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4306 802.11b/g Wireless LAN Controller (rev 03) (detected by lspci) can work under the edubuntu kernel?
<Eghie_Work> the new one wil work i think (5.10)
<Eghie_Work> a friend of mine has a laptop with a broadcom WIFI card in it, and it works under Ubuntu Breezy
<tatyana> i have 5.10
<Eghie_Work> it will work (i think)
<crimsun> tatyana: it does. You may have to use ndiswrapper, but it works.
<tatyana> it gets detected by lspci
<tatyana> but... i don't get an extra network interface
<tatyana> crimsun, so not out of the box, any guide to make it work with ndiswrapper? (btw isn't that a pay application for windows drivers?)
<crimsun> tatyana: ndiswrapper is free. You're thinking of Linuxant or Driverloader
<tatyana> ah k
<crimsun> lsmod|grep ^bcm43xx
<crimsun> (at the console/in a Terminal)
<tatyana> not loaded
<crimsun> sudo modprobe bcm43xx
<tatyana> not found
<tatyana> FATAL: Module bcm43xx not found.
<crimsun> must only be in Dapper, then
<tatyana> :s
<tatyana> I think it's best not to manually recompile this kernel
<tatyana> any other way to make it work?
<crimsun> do you have the .inf file for it?
<crimsun> if so, you can use ndiswrapper
<tatyana> ehm no
<crimsun> you don't have Windows installed on that computer?
<tatyana> nopz
<crimsun> ok, is it currently connected to the Internet?
<tatyana> yes
<crimsun> you'll need to install linux-headers-$(uname -r), build-essential, gcc-3.4
<crimsun> you'll also need to download a copy of the .inf
<tatyana> anything else? cause i'll do this later
<crimsun> are you on a 64-bit machine?
<tatyana> nop
<crimsun> ok, then you need ndiswrapper-utils, too
<crimsun> actually if you install ndiswrapper-utils, you won't need linux-headers-$(uname r), build-essential, or gcc-3.4
<tatyana> k, so that's all i need?
<tatyana> installing
<tatyana> hmmm
<tatyana> can't extract the windows drivfers
<tatyana> root@edubuntu:~# ndiswrapper -l
<tatyana> Installed ndis drivers:
<tatyana> bcmwl5a invalid driver!
<crimsun> I've read there are a few different .infs for it
<tatyana> ah k
<tatyana> got the right one now i think
<tatyana> root@edubuntu:~# ndiswrapper -i bcmwl5.inf
<tatyana> Installing bcmwl5
<tatyana> root@edubuntu:~# ndiswrapper -l
<tatyana> Installed ndis drivers:
<tatyana> bcmwl5  invalid driver!
<tatyana> that should be the correct one
<tatyana> options? ideas?
<P3L|C4N0> tatyana, ndiswrapper with broadcom 4306 no support, 4318 only
<DeeJay1> hello. I have a small question - is there a network installer for edubuntu dapper testing ?
<ogra> DeeJay1, only the normal ubuntu netinstall, you have to doo all the edubuntu stuff manually ...
<DeeJay1> hmm, ok
<DeeJay1> oh, BTW I'm currently fighting with edubuntu 5.10 setting random keyboard layouts on the clients, any hints here?
<ogra> seen the wiki ?
<ogra> you need to set it in lts.conf
<DeeJay1> still looking at different pages there
<ogra> its linked from the install notes
<DeeJay1> crap, I knew it was somewhere there
<DeeJay1> but the problem is in the "pl" layout there are some different layouts one qwerty one qwertz and one I haven't seen before
<DeeJay1> ogra: thx
<tatyana> mhm, is there any wway to get my broadcom 4306 working on edubuntu? (as it doesn't work with ndiswrapper)
<ogra> it might work with dapper, it has the new bcm43xx driver, but dapper is not intended for day to day usage yet 
<tatyana> ic, any idea when dapper will be released, like 'stable'
<ogra> sure
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<ogra> 20th of april
<tatyana> ic
<tatyana> k 
<tatyana> :)
<tatyana> thx
<ogra> but it should start to be usable for normal users with the beta release ...
<DeeJay1> ogra: ok, I get someone to check it (there's no internet access yet) in the worst case gnome should handle it via some sabayon setting I think
<ogra> yup
<DeeJay1> there already are some custom setting for seniors there (yeah, 80 year olds learning Linux)
<highvoltage> ogra: how are things?
<ogra> busy
<ogra> two days until UVF
<highvoltage> sjoe
<azazel> hi, anyone can tell me where i can find a list of the edu packages included with edubuntu?
<mhz> ogra: ping, please
<Yagisan> morning mhz
<mhz> morning
* mhz is in a meeting
<Yagisan> mhz: no worries - catch you later then
<ogra> mhz, pong
<P3L|C4N0> hi people
<mhz> ogra: ping
<ogra> mhz, sorry meeting ...
<mhz> okis
<mhz> ogra: ping?
<mhz> Does anyone know when next edubuntu summit will take place and where?
#edubuntu 2007-01-15
<ThePraVa2> AKI HABLAN ESPAOL?????????????
<Burgundavia> ThePraVa2: #edubuntu-es
<willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki/Cleanup coming along nicely
<willvdl> anyone know when pips1 will be back?
<kalle_> Can anyone help me find drivers for sharp networkprinters. I run Edubuntu.
<willvdl> kalle_ you might find support for drivers in #ubuntu a lot quicker as edubuntu is built on ubuntu
<kalle_> Thanks
<willvdl> ping highvoltage
<highvoltage> willvdl: pong
<willvdl> woop. met morgan the other idea. looks familiar
<highvoltage> hmmm?
<highvoltage> perhaps you mean the other day?
<willvdl> it may have happened in my head
<willvdl> highvoltage, do you perhaps have a list of nice preferred thin-clients available on our fair continent?
<willvdl> I know you mentioned the VIA terminals a few times etc.
<highvoltage> willvdl: proper thin clients? the only ones I know of that seems to be quite available are those HP ones.
<highvoltage> the VIA's aren't quite available yet :-(
<highvoltage> which is a pity because they are real nice and cheap, and can even ran as fat machines.
<willvdl> aha. what about any other YATC's?
<highvoltage> as in the noname brands? I haven't paid much attention to them.
<highvoltage> we still use old whiteboxes, mostly.
<highvoltage> (or new ones, if needed)
<willvdl> as in any brand. somebody asked me this the other day and I was stumped
<willvdl> I've _heard_ of the things but have never really thought about them
<highvoltage> the HP's are generally good, that's all I can really recommend. some of the other clients have strange firmware installed, which you can remove, but it's some work.
<willvdl> you mean the evo's?
<highvoltage> some of the evo's, yes.
<cbx33> ping highvoltage
<highvoltage> you get some compaq thin clients that are ok.
<highvoltage> cbx33: pong
<willvdl> with sound and alles?
<cbx33> highvoltage: did you see my blogs
<highvoltage> willvdl: depends. with ubuntu's ltsp the sound /should/ work
<highvoltage> cbx33: I did indeed. it looked fun and productive.
<cbx33> you want to put up a fridge article? - or do you want me to work on one?
<willvdl> meaning the clients have audio HW. the HP's at least I know (sort of) thanks
<highvoltage> cbx33: you can put together a fridge article
<cbx33> i have one more article to add ;)
<highvoltage> cbx33: we can also link to your blogs from an edubuntu news entry
<highvoltage> cbx33: ok :)
<willvdl> highvoltage, what about the Meraka HW? or is that limited stuff?
<highvoltage> willvdl: yes, many of the evo clients does have sound, which is supported by ubuntu
<cbx33> highvoltage: cool
<highvoltage> willvdl: unfortunately yes. the hardware that meraka used is very nice, and sound and everything works, but they pretty much bought all of those models that VIA had left :-/
<willvdl> of course, that's the link that was hanging around in my head
<willvdl> what was the model?
<highvoltage> VIA will be making a big batch of nice thin clients (or are making, at least)
<highvoltage> they're supposed to be finished at the end of Feb. I hope that we'd be able to import a bunch of them.
<willvdl> got a model or series number perhaps?
* highvoltage looks
<cbx33> hey willvdl hitachi and whiteboards
<cbx33> I made contact with them at BETT
<cbx33> got a contact from a top guy there who says they already have drivers for our boards....want the contact or do you have your own?
<willvdl> Excellent! send it on! And to rodarvus...
<willvdl> good news indeed
<cbx33> i spoke to one guy at OFE about IWBs and he went...it's just a f***ing mouse
<cbx33> and got quite uptight about it
<willvdl> it's a big mouse
<willvdl> he obviously didn't have one himself :)
<cbx33> heheh
<willvdl> has anyone here setup an box in "kiosk" mode? Want to provide jsut a browser
<cbx33> no I havn't
<cbx33> kiosk mode?
<cbx33> I used to just xiniti firefox on one box to provide that caability ;)
<highvoltage> willvdl: you can create an X session that just starts firefox with the rkiosk plugin installe
<highvoltage> *installed
<cbx33> ahhh
<willvdl> ooh, not worried about respawning on logout etc?
<highvoltage> if you log out, you'll just get a GDM screen again.
<highvoltage> then you can just log in again as the kiosk user
<willvdl> simple
<willvdl> BTW, on seperate note, is https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTesting current or used at all?
<willvdl> There's https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTestingPlan too as well as https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/TestingPlan
<willvdl> cbx33, you created https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/TestingPlan, is it valid?
<cbx33> no
<cbx33> not at the moment
<willvdl> it kinda coincides with the other two pages
<rockprincess> hello everyone!
<rockprincess> i'm having a speech in less than an hour...and I wanted to know if anyone knew how to connect my edubuntu laptop with a beamer?
<rockprincess> i know where to plug the cable of the beamer with my laptop...but do I switch into presentation mode, if that makes sense?
<rockprincess> *how do I
<willvdl> would it matter what mode it runs. doesn't the beamer jsut act as a mouse?
* willvdl has never tried
<rockprincess> hmm i don't  know....i only know how to do it on windows...
<willvdl> sorry, don't have one at my disposal to check
<willvdl> cbx33, was there a specific reason why that page was put under EdubuntuDocumentation?
<cbx33> yes
<rockprincess> willvdl: thanks, no worries...I hope everything runs smoothly though ;)
<cbx33> I started doing it, but then sfllaw took over testing
<rockprincess> anyways, i'm off,...will be back later on.....wish me luck :)
<willvdl> was just curious as to why it's a subpage of docs
<cbx33> you can remove it
<cbx33> i think
<cbx33> lemme see it
<cbx33> here's nothing in it
<cbx33> remove it
<willvdl> rodarvus hey
<rodarvus> hey willvdl!
<willvdl> rodarvus, cbx33 mentioned he got whiteboard contacts at Hitachi at BETT. apparently they have drivers...
<rodarvus> RichEd and ogra are not around, I suppose?
<rodarvus> willvdl, oh, nice to hear
<willvdl> RichEd at LCA, ogra off
<rodarvus> *nods*
<willvdl> cbx33, you mean I can remove the EdubuntuDocumentation/TestingPlan? Or shall I preserve the info somehow
<cbx33> is there info in there?
<cbx33> rodarvus: yeh the guys seemed to be pretty confident that they had drivers
<rodarvus> any idea on the state these drivers might be (usable on current linux, need work, etc)?
<cbx33> well from what akira said they are working
<cbx33> I phoned them up previsouly and they said they had working drivers
<cbx33> but the guy wasn't sure why they weren't out
<cbx33> so I'd say wait a few days, give akira a ring / mail and see what he says
<jsgotangco> good evening
<willvdl> jsgotangco! just the man I'm looking for :)
<jsgotangco> oh yeah? hehe
<jsgotangco> i am yours this evening as i have nothing to do hehe
<willvdl> can I ask you one or two questions in a few minutes?
<willvdl> just doc stuff
<jsgotangco> fire away
<willvdl> cool, 5 mins  need to check door
<jsgotangco> k k
<willvdl> gotto run to office. catch all later or tomorrow
<AnRkey> anyone seen ogra?
<bddebian> Heya
<kros> hello guys
<willvdl> hey
<kros> i wanna know that edubuntu have feature like local media : usb flashdrive, sound, or inserting printer or scanner automatically does edubuntu have it ?
<Amaranth> you mean can a thin client have sound and use usb flashdrives?
<LaserJock> I believe 6.10 has support for local media
<Amaranth> yeah
<Amaranth> what LaserJock said, 6.10 should do local flashdrives and sound
<kros> thats what im looking for cause edubuntu dapper dont have these feature :)
<LaserJock> kros: yeah, that was added for 6.10
<cliebow> local device will be in ltsp in feisty
<kros> cliebow - so edubuntu edgy dont have it ?
<LaserJock> it does
<LaserJock> but I don't think it was as fully implemented
<jenda> hello
<jenda> are "Edubuntu" and the logo s of Canonical?
<LaserJock> yes, I believe so
<jenda> thankee
<cliebow> kros: i havnt talked to ogra for a while..but i dont think it is ready..
<cliebow> localdevs
<LaserJock> cliebow: I believe we shipped local dev support in Edgy
<LaserJock> and then it's getting reworked and improved for Feisty
<bimberi> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-October/000095.html
<cliebow> LaserJock:Fair enough. i only have one term running in edgy and havnt tried it yet
<bimberi> "Support for locally attached devices on thin clients"
<willvdl> localdev support is in edgy
<willvdl> night all
* bimberi recalls sbalneav coming here an whooping it up when he got it working :-)
<bimberi> *and
<kros> ok thanks guys
#edubuntu 2007-01-16
<cbx33> ping rodarvus
<cbx33> ping highvoltage
<cbx33> ping ogra
<ogra> PONG
<ogra> oops
<ogra> sorry fo rthe caps
<cbx33> np
<cbx33> did you get a chance to see my mail yet?
<ogra> no, sorry, i havent been at the computer until 20 min ago ... i'll look over it today, thanks for rminding
<cbx33> np
<cbx33> then I can get started on it
<ogra> "My name is Eoghan
<ogra> Crosby and I work for the Irish charity Camara. Our main aim is to
<ogra> provide education to Africa, with technology realising this initiative.
<ogra> We take in second hand computers from businesses, refurbish them through
<ogra> volunteer assistance, load Edubuntu and then send them to schools in
<ogra> Africa. We sent 1000 computers fully loaded with Edubuntu to schools all
<ogra> over Ethiopia and Kenya last year."
<ogra> now thats nice ...
<rodarvus> cbx33, pong
<cbx33> indeed
<rodarvus> good morning :)
<cbx33> hey rodarvus
<cbx33> was gonna say...I don;t mind poking akira about the drivers
<cbx33> oh and is the data on the getting started on the edubuntu pge about ltsp still relevant?
<cbx33> it says the guide is for 6.06
<cbx33> how does it change to 6.10
<rodarvus> cbx33, why not?
<rodarvus> (just curious :) )
<cbx33> I didn't know if it was still required to edit eh dhcp file
<cbx333> sorry about that
<cbx333> rodarvus: I got up to you saying just curious
<cbx333> ;)
<rodarvus> :)
<cbx333> what did you say after that ;0
<rodarvus> ahn
<rodarvus> I didn't said anything after that, but before that I asked why I (we) shouldn't contact Akira about the drivers
<ogra> cbx333, its not necessary anymore to edit tat file on new instally
<cbx333> you can if you wish....or were you saying we as in canonical?
<cbx333> ogra: thanks dude
* cbx333 is dying from flux intake
<cbx333> cough cough
<cbx333> i used to like soldering
<jsgotangco> hello
<highvoltage> hi jerome
<highvoltage> cbx333: pong
<highvoltage> cbx333: take it easy on the flux there ;)
<jsgotangco> hey jonathan how are you doing
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: good. I slept an insane amount last night :)
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> hehe
* jsgotangco gets to test herd2 today hehee
<cbx33> highvoltage: pm
<willvdl> BECTA review: http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/9045
<cbx33> hey willvdl
<willvdl> hey, that article is an interesting read
<cbx33> ah yes
<cbx33> read the highlights
<willvdl> interesting office comparison
<juliux> hi cbx33
<juliux> cbx33, how was BETT?
<cbx33> juliux: BETT was awesome
<cbx33> see my blog for details ;)
<juliux> cbx33, i will check your blog;)
<cbx33> hehe
<jsgotangco> BECTA? BETT?
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> BETT was a technology show
<cbx33> BECTA is a board fro advising schools in standards in ICT
<juliux> cbx33, nice reports
<jsgotangco> i bet the B stands for British
<juliux> cbx33, it is normal that the opensource part has more visitores then the rest
<cbx33> juliux: there is a 3,000 word debrief to go along with that
<willvdl> jsgotangco, nice alliteration
<juliux> cbx33, i read the short version;)
<cbx33> I'll bet a buck that the b stands for british
<juliux> the E is for education?
<cbx33> yup
<juliux> t for trade?
<jsgotangco> ive used Office 2007, its pretty but its just that
<cbx33> technology i think
<jsgotangco> at least the UI looks smashing
<juliux> and the second one?
<cbx33> not sure
<cbx33> jsgotangco: they are just xp + office xp with bling
<jsgotangco> sure they are
<jsgotangco> i kinda dig vista's UI though
<willvdl> http://www.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=386398
<willvdl> office 2007 had a serious UI rethink
<willvdl> context sensitive menus apparently
<cbx33> nice link willvdl
<willvdl> yeah, google alerts rule OK
<jsgotangco> it sucks though that office 2007's default file formats are incompatible from legacy
<bddebian> Heya
<sbalneav> I'm BAAAAAACK
<ogra> hi sbalneav
<sbalneav> Hey!  Hiya ogra!
<sbalneav> So, I've been dumping xdmcp logins, and switching over to ldm here
<ogra> pitti asked what kind of code review you still need for ltsp-persistant-home
<sbalneav> Works great, if I use an ssh compiled to accept CIPHER=NONE
<ogra> (its stil marked as needs cde review
<ogra> )
<ogra> *code
<sbalneav> Yeah, just need him to look it over, and see if it meets his security idears
<ogra> could you explain that to him ? he didnt understand when i tried
<sbalneav> Sure.
<sbalneav> I'll send him an email
<ogra> thanks ...
<ogra> pulse is approved for main
<ogra> but i cant get it respect the volume control ...
<ogra> at least its not regressing vs edgy ...
<cbx33> ogra, this SCP split is harder than it first seems
<LaserJock> hi cbx33
<cbx33> hey LaserJock
<cbx33> ping LaserJock
<cbx33> phew finished the SCP frontend/backend split.....come on KDE developers.....we need you now ;)
<LaserJock> bah
<cbx333> bah?
<cbx333> brb
<LaserJock> cbx333: arggg
<LaserJock> cbx333: I keep missing you
<cbx333> LaserJock, I'm back for a sec
<LaserJock> cbx333: hi!
<cbx333> too late I've gone
<cbx333> hahah
<LaserJock> doh
<cbx333> pm dude
#edubuntu 2007-01-17
<bddebian> Heya
* Starting logfile irclogs/edubuntu.log
<cbx33> ping ogra sent you a mail....
<cbx33> comments please when yo uare available
<cbx33> I need a little guidence before I can continue
<willvdl> ola
<highvoltage> 'ola
<juliux> hi, can somebody test something with the ltsp-build-client skript?
<cbx33> ping ogra
<ogra> cbx33, pong
<ogra> juliux, whats wrong ?
<cbx33> ogra: did you get my mail?
<ogra> cbx33, yep
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> does it look ok?
<ogra> cbx33, the idea was to have something like an SCP class we can import into either kind of frontend
<cbx33> oh
<cbx33> that's how I've done it
<cbx33> but then
<juliux> ogra, if i run the ltps-build-client with the --mirror option and i added my mirror with the name and not the ip, i get an error that it can resolve the name
<cbx33> how will that work if we're aiming for this multiple server control
<ogra> the class should only provide the functions ...
<ogra> what i mean is that you dont need an scp-backend ... but import the class into some kind of frontend .... be it curses, gtk or kde
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> look how Amaranth did it in  willow
<cbx33> yeh i've done that....
<Amaranth> oops
<Amaranth> ogra: what's wrong with willowng in feisty?
<cbx33> ogra: so....thats fine
<ogra> i'm doing something similar to ltsp-manager atm
<cbx33> but
<cbx33> how is the multiple server control going to work?
<Amaranth> other than the broken error pages
* Amaranth might look at that today
<ogra> you will have a server tool that attaches to the class ....
<Amaranth> and at least poke the gconf bits to make epiphany use it
<ogra> to which you connect over the network
<cbx33> ah right
<cbx33> hmmm
<cbx33> so we need to setup a port for it to communicate over etc
<ogra> actually thats only another frontend but reading and writing is done from the net
<cbx33> and design a protocol?
<ogra> no
<ogra> we have ssh
<ogra> as the spec describes ...
<cbx33> yeh, I kinda got lost a little....sorry
<cbx33> I don't want to make the same mistake as I did last time
<cbx33> if you remember
<ogra> well, much of that was caused by the poor spec
<cbx33> so
<cbx33> how will the new gui
<cbx33> contact the server backend on a remote server?
<ogra> what i want to be able to do is have a script like that:
<ogra> #!/usr/bin/python
<ogra> import SCPClass
<ogra> userlist=SCPClass.list_users()
<ogra> print userlist
<cbx33> yes that's how I've done it
<ogra> now i can call the above script via ssh and will get the userlist returned
<cbx33> oh i see
<cbx33> ok....
<cbx33> so....how is that script called?
<ogra> pick a name :)
<ogra> i really dont care ...
<cbx33> where does the script reside
<cbx33> or is it dynamically generated?
<ogra> thats the script you write as network backend ...
<Amaranth> oh, the config GUI is broken :/
<cbx33> surely then I'd need many of these scripts?
<highvoltage> ogra: I once asked a colluege what a host name should be for a machine, and he said "Pick a scientist", and I made the hostname 'pickascientist', so be careful what you tell people with little sleep :p
<ogra> cbx33, nope ... just make one and add switches
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> ogra: ok
<cbx33> that's what I thought
<cbx33> excellent
<cbx33> ok that's that sorted
<cbx33> I'll be working on that tomrorow
<cbx33> I think I can implement that without too much trouble
<ogra> what i wanted to point out is that most if not all SCP related stuff should just be importable as a class or module
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> it is
<ogra> i'm fine with keeping the old name in the backends btw ...
<cbx33> I'll send you the source if you're interested in what I've done so far....
<cbx33> right ok
<ogra> juliux, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/72482
<ogra> i havent fixed that one yet
<cbx33> oh and where is our docs for how to update a thinclient nfs root?
<cbx33> ogra thanks again for all the help.....did my recommendations of what I can and can't do seem reasonable?
<ogra> is the documentation ? beyond the release notes/upgrade notes ?
<juliux> ogra, thxs
<ogra> cbx33, well, why do you think the screen locking will be complicated ?
<cbx33> the gui implementation won't
<ogra> that should be one function and another button ... not more
<cbx33> but I'm talking abotu the backend
<cbx33> the vnx11 stuff
<ogra> neither the backend ...
<juliux> ogra, the funny thing is if i use de.archive.ubuntu.com then everything is ok, but if the dns entry is in /etc/hosts it fails
<ogra> the screen locking has nothing to do with vnc
<cbx33> oh
<cbx33> screen locking no
<cbx33> that could be a dbus call to the exec function to run the lock program right?
<ogra> its only a call to gnome-screensaver-command --lock
<cbx33> but....
<cbx33> it can't be caled as the user
<ogra> why ?
<cbx33> else they'll be able to unlock
<ogra> thats fine
<cbx33> but isn't that pointless?
<ogra> no
<ogra> well, you culd set the gconf key if you urgently want them locked out ...
<cbx33> explain
<ogra> for now i'm fine with the option to block access ... if you teach and someone starts typing after you locked you knw he tries to unlock
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> if you have a better idea then feel free ...
<cbx33> we'll implement like that for now
<cbx33> do you want unlock too?
<ogra> if possible, yes
<ogra> that might need a script killing the g-ss daemon and restarting it ...
<ogra> (not sure g-ss-command has an overriding function for the lock)
<cbx33> hmmm
<cbx33> would killing the gss not work?
* cbx33 will try a few ways
<cbx33> for now locking is most important
<ogra> killing would indeed work, but is ugly
<cbx33> in what way?
<cbx33> we kill the clients session right?
<ogra> no, you kill gnome-screensaver and start it again ... that will unlock ...
<cbx33> oh
<ogra> it doesnt touch the running session
<Amaranth>   -d, --deactivate           If the screensaver is active then deactivate it (un-blank the screen)
<cbx33> no i meant to log them out
<Amaranth> gnome-screensaver-command -d
<cbx33> we kill their session
<ogra> Amaranth, not sure it works with locked screens
<ogra> cbx33, why would you want to lock them out if you just want to unblank
<ogra> s/lock/log/
<Amaranth> ogra: it does
<Amaranth> gnome-screensaver-command -a && sleep 10 && gnome-screensaver-command -d
<ogra> ah, cool
<Amaranth> that works
<ogra> cbx33, ^^^
<cbx33> excellent
<ogra> so just call gnome-screensaver-command --lock/--deactivate
<cbx33> ok excellent
<Amaranth> there is no --lock
<ogra> (use the long options in the script, so a coder doesnt need to look them up in the manpage)
<Amaranth> it's -a/--activate
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> there is no manpage
<cbx33> is there?
<ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~/python-ltsp$ LANG=C gnome-screensaver-command --help|grep lock
<ogra>   -l, --lock                 Tells the running screensaver process to lock the screen immediately
<ogra> Amaranth, ^^
<cbx33> yup works a treat
<cbx33> gnome-screensaver-command -l && sleep 10 && gnome-screensaver-command -d
<Amaranth> ah
<Amaranth> --activate probably won't do it if you've got something calling inhibit
<ogra> right
<Amaranth> and --lock says "screw that, we're locking down" :)
<Amaranth> isn't all of this just a wrapper around the dbus api?
<cbx33> it would be nice to have
<cbx33> -l <password>
<cbx33> hehe
<ogra> well, then you need to hack pam
<cbx33> screw it
<cbx33> at least for now anyway
<cbx33> ;)
<cbx33> I have too much else to worry about
<cbx33> i thought about running it as another user...
<cbx33> but that probably wouldn't work would it
<ogra> that gets very tricky
<cbx33> yeh
<ogra> dbus wont like it and yu need to fiddle around with xauth
<cbx33> ok we'll stick with this for now
<cbx33> yeh
<cbx33> assistance applet will be ok, just need to possibly implement a seperate part of the bus
<cbx33> so that clients can write back to it
<ogra> do you have our priority list we made last meeting ?
<cbx33> for SCP?
<ogra> i thought the applet was low prio
<cbx33> no, I was at BETT, will go checking for minutes
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> good
<cbx33> ;)
<ogra> cbx33, you and me had a 1h meeting where we went over the spec, remember ?
<cbx33> oh
<cbx33> yes...sorry
<ogra> way before BETT
<cbx33> i thought you meant edubuntu meeting
<ogra> nope
<ogra> btw
<ogra> willvdl, ping
<willvdl> ogra pong
<ogra> willvdl, i wont be able to make the meeting tonight, can you run it ?
<willvdl> sure.
<ogra> RichEd is still at LCA ... so it might be pretty quiet anyway .... artwork and doc centric
<willvdl> RichEd also away at LCA so I guess it's an SCP, doc and artwork meeting :)
<willvdl> snap
<cbx33> because I don't have it here, it's at home....what bits are of high priority
<ogra> right ...
<ogra> not sure what kind of tech stuff rodarvus wants to tell though
<Amaranth> @now Chicago
<Ubugtu> Current time in America/Chicago: January 17 2007, 07:24:33
<ogra> cbx33, i dont have it here either, will need to dig the logs ...
<Amaranth> meh, it's supposed to show the next meeting
<Amaranth> @schedule Chicago
<Amaranth> i give up
<cbx33> ok
<Amaranth> what time is the meeting?
<ogra> Amaranth, tonight at 20:00 UTC
<Amaranth> 4pm local time then
<ogra> we always have alternating 12:00 and 20:00 UTC
<ogra> every wed.
<Amaranth> yeah, i don't make it to enough meetings to remember that :)
<cbx33> ogra, ok I'll do server/multiple blank/lock, generalisation and filtering
<cbx33> as top priority
<ogra> is there a difference between multiple/single ?
<ogra> i wouldnt think so
<cbx33> not really
<ogra> right
<ogra> that should be based on the selection
<cbx33> hmm
<cbx33> yeh
<cbx33> so the calls to the functions, instead of importing and using locally will be routed to ssh
<cbx33> if you're on multiple
<cbx33> for now, we're just administrating one remote server right?
<cbx33> or the local one
<ogra> yes, for feisty thast enough ... but the opportunity for more needs to be there
<cbx33> well, yes, that'll require some rewriting
<ogra> the frontend should have the opportunity to switch between servers (at least at some point) so that should be prepared in your code
<cbx33> switching between servers will be implemented
<cbx33> should be in feisty
<ogra> great
<cbx33> but administering multiple servers from one gui was what I was thinking
<ogra> that will need a new gui design
<ogra> which we should do in feisty+1
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> so...
<cbx33> are we going to get vnc in this version?
<ogra> not sure, .... if i find the time for it ...
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> people were very keen for that at BETT ;)
<cbx33> if I have the time I will look into it
<ogra> te script is described in the old spec ... feel free to try to write it if you want
<cbx33> heh, i will
<ogra> since x11vnc has no initscript which could clash with a self written one, you can as well copy one in place by yourself
<ogra> which should solve the x11vnc issue
<cbx33> ooooo.....k....
<cbx33> so basically....we need to...
<cbx33> start the x11vnc
<cbx33> and then in the gui...connect to that vnc session
<cbx33> http://tocm.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_archive.html - look at the top post
<ogra> thats nice
<cbx33> yeh
<ogra> try to find that code
<cbx33> but there's no link to anything
<ogra> mail him ?
<cbx33> no email address
<cbx33> oh ang on
<cbx33> nope
<cbx33> what do you think i'd look for if I were to do it from scratch
<ogra> try with a comment ... the blog has a comment space
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> ad he seems active in LKML
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> I'll give him a contact
<cbx33> anthony.printf at codemonkey.scanf.ws minus syscalls
<cbx33> hahaha
<ogra> http://lbpp.sourceforge.net/
<ogra> might be the same guy
<cbx33> ok mailing now
<cbx33> http://virt-manager.et.redhat.com/codestructure.html
<ogra> thats for xen ?
<ogra> or vmware ?
<ogra> uh, ugly, it abuses vnc2swf
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> i saw that too
<cbx33> http://virt-manager.et.redhat.com/screenshots/guest-console.png
<cbx33> actually I don;t know if it is as bad as we thought
<cbx33> oh
<cbx33> yes it is
<Amaranth> what? they use gtkmozembed and vnc2swf?
<cbx33> mozembed isn't in the vnc viewer
<cbx33> but vnc2swf maybe
<cbx33> though I can find no mention of swf in the rfb.py and vnc.py
<cbx33> think I may giv this a go
<cbx33> seems like it may be fairly easy to implement as a first test anyway
<cbx33> what ya think ogra worth a shot?
<cbx33> library seems fairly complete from that virt-manager thing
<ogra> as long as you dont need any universe stuff do what you want ...
<cbx33> well....I can just copy the code out can't I?
<ogra> if its not packaged anywhere in ubuntu, yes
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> I will look
<cbx33> can't see it anywhere
<cbx33> so I'll just rip out the code for the python vnc and try it out
<cbx33> ;)
<ogra> but keep an eye on it ... if its packaged once we shouldnt duplicate the code, then you need to depend on it
<cbx33> yeh
<g333k_work> hello, is it possible configure autologin un edubuntu?
<ogra_> g333k_work, thats the third day you are asking it ... the answer didnt change: yes, via gdm but then you loose local device support
<ogra_> ldm doesnt have autologin yet
<ogra_> (patches accepted though)
<yamama> what is edubuntu ??
<cbx33> ogra: dude, I have just ran a vnc session inside a python widget
<cbx33> I hacked up their code a bit
<cbx33> and...well....it works
<g333k_work> ogra, noup... I realized that ubuntu edgy + ltsp 5 use LDM, and is not possible to do the autologin thing :(
<ogra> g333k_work, only if you use gdm ... but since we dont support unencrypted connections by default in ltsp5 in ubuntu there is no work gone into localdev support yet
<sbalneav> Morning all
<ogra> hi sbalneav
<sbalneav> Hey ogra!
<cbx33> ogra: ok it works.....but the resize isn't implemented
<cbx33> for the frame buffer
<ogra> cbx33, hmm, so no tiled overview yet then...
<cbx33> not yet
<ogra> thats fine for a start
<cbx33> yeh
<cbx33> but I want that tiled overview
<cbx33> this code is pretty slick
<cbx33> but most of the code has
<cbx33> raise NotImplementError
<cbx33> grrr
<cbx33> I mean t's possible that I can hack up the code to get it to work
<ogra> dtrask was very keen on getting it in.. but if we cat make it in time we simply cant ...
<ogra> s/cat/cant/
<cbx33> hmm...so basically.....we need to read in the screen and resize....that's pretty intensive
<ogra> it doesn tneed to be realtime ...
<cbx33> no....I know
<ogra> the tiles can be screenshots
<cbx33> taken every 10 secs or so
<cbx33> basically I don't know enough about the technology to do it
<cbx33> but
<cbx33> I'm willing to try and learn
<cbx33>   def resize_screen(self, width, height):    raise NotImplementedError
<ogra> you use a nonblocking child process ...
<cbx33> yeh that's not the issue
<ogra> cool would be to have an effect like a tooltip on mouse over that shows the realtime screen in a frameless popup in a suitable size ...
<ogra> but i suspect that will slow down everything
<cbx33> flippin eck ogra give us a chance
<willvdl> :)
<cbx33> ogra: managed to resize the window.....but not rescale it
<cbx33> can vnc viewer request a size fomr the server?
<cbx33> doesn't look like it
<cbx33> bbl
<cbx33> ogra, I think I've isolated a section of code I can use
<cbx33> I don;t know how performance will be, but we'll have to see that later ;)
<LaserJock> hi cbx33
<cbx33> hey LaserJock
<Laser_away> cbx33: jabber
<cbx33> Laser_away, bbiab dude
<cbx33> dinner
<Laser_away> np
<cbx33> ogra, I've done it
<cbx33> seriously
<cbx33> I have a 3 second updating screenshot
<cbx33> that is resized
<cbx33> took about 2 hours to research and hack up
<cbx33> I'll send you a demo
<LaserJock> cbx33: bbl
<cbx33> LaserJock,
<cbx33> hi
<cbx33> oh
<cbx33> you........dang it
<cbx33> I'm here now
<juliux> cbx33, no meeting today?
<cbx33> yup
<cbx33> in 40 mins
<cbx33> willvdl is charing
<cbx33> chairing
<cbx33> as ogra isn't able to attend
<cbx33> hey willvdl
<willvdl> hey
<highvoltage> ahoy
<willvdl> edubuntu meeting?
<willvdl> ========Edubuntu Meeting =========
<stormchas3r> its been awhile since i set edubuntu server up.  Can you guys please point me in the right direction on configuring the server to accept thin clients and all?
<willvdl> stormchas3r, www.edubuntu.org/gettingstarted
<stormchas3r> ty
<stormchas3r> has much changed in 6.10 for the server side?
<cbx33> nope
<cbx33> dhcp is dopne for iirc
<LaserJock> cya cbx33
<cbx33> nn LaserJock #
<stormchas3r> o wow, its been awhile cbx33, remember me?
<bddebian> LaserJock: I shouldn't have an issue updating an edubuntu install to a "normal" install should I?
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> it's basically a normal install +
<bddebian> Aye
<LaserJock> you did an LTSP server install?
<bddebian> No, just a Edgy Live -> Install
<LaserJock> oh
<LaserJock> then yeah, it's darn near the same thing
<bddebian> OK
<LaserJock> install ubuntu-* and remove edubuntu-* and you pretty much have it
<bddebian> Got it, thanks man
<pips1> willvdl: hullo
<willvdl> pips1, good to have you back
<pips1> what time friday?
<willvdl> I am UTC+2 i think, you?
<pips1> UTC+1
<pips1> morning or afternoon?
<willvdl> morning or afternoon?
<pips1> heh
<willvdl> snap :)
<pips1> morning
<willvdl> morning is best
<willvdl> my 12 is your 11am? or earlier?
<pips1> correct
<pips1> 10 UTC then?
<willvdl> goo for you?
<pips1> yep
<willvdl> excellent
<willvdl> just want to chat wiki/website
<pips1> ok, I'll talk to you fri 10 UTC, here
<pips1> see you then!
<willvdl> ciao
<pips1> it was an informative meeting... I will want to know more about your/doc-team thoughts too
<willvdl> cool. there are a lot :)
<pips1> regarding the whole categorisation/name spaces thing..
<pips1> ok, got to go, cu
<nixternal> ogra: sorry to here about Fred. I know the feeling as I just lost my dog after 11 years on Thanksgiving Day. It is tough, but at least his suffering is over. My thoughts and prayers are with you!
<ogra> thanks a lot
<nixternal> that is 3 dev pooches in a row, first jono, then me, and now you :(
<nixternal> it sucks big time
<nixternal> my mom picked up another pooch, or devil I should say, he can never be a replacement, but he did help a little with the grieving process
<ogra> well, it wasnt really unexpected ... 16 is very old and i said goodbye since months already
<nixternal> ya, he gave you 16 good years though, that is awesome
<ogra> yeah
<nixternal> holly was 11 when she went
<ogra> thats early ...
<ogra> but if the body doesnt want anymore you can hardly do anything
<nixternal> a little early yes, but they think she was born with a heart condition, she was about 2 to 3 years early for a malteze
<ogra> he still didnt want to go ... the vet had to give an extra shot which is very unusual she said ... but he would have starved to death if i wouldnt have decided it now ...
<nixternal> wow, definitely a fighter then. our dog was eventually going to do the same thing with starvation
<nixternal> she wouldn't eat for anything, and wouldn't even eat her favorite, chicken and ham
<nixternal> or a mcdonald's french fry for that matter
<ogra> as weak as he was he did his round through the garden with me, even 30mon before i had to give him the sleeping pills
<nixternal> gave you one last walk, that's cool
<ogra> yeah, fred stopped eating last friday ...
<ogra> and nothing could convnce him ....
<nixternal> ya, same exact here
<nixternal> well, now there are 3 new friends where ever they go after life on earth, but I can guarantee holly is being a prissy little one and not wanting to play :)
<ogra> yeah
<nixternal> the only thing holly played with was my cat, and would play around with my pitbull every now and then when feeling frisky
<ogra> fred only played with his mom ... he never got why he should play with humans or other dogs
<nixternal> the new dog and the pitbull aren't friends yet, the little dog wants to eat the pitbull
<nixternal> ya, our new dog plays with everyone and everything, holly didn't play much except if the kids were around
<nixternal> i have a 100+ pound pit bull that is terrified on a 5 pound yorkshire terrier
<nixternal> crazy
<ogra> yeah
<nixternal> when the little one comes around, the pitbull will jump on a couch or bed because he knows nikki the little one can't get up there and get him
<LaserJock> ogra: will there be re-evaluation of specs at the sprint next week?
<LaserJock> like last time
#edubuntu 2007-01-18
<cbx33> ogra, sorry to hear the news
<LaserJock> yeah
<cbx33> ogra, if you get a sec check out the new vnc code ;)
<cbx33> nn
<cbx33> I'm whacked
<cbx33> and ill
<xp_prg> I am trying to ssh -X into my edubuntu
<xp_prg> when I try to run an xwindows app it says display is not set, how can this be?
<LaserJock> xp_prg: hmm, you might have to check the sshd conf
<xp_prg> I did, X11Fowarding is set to yes
<LaserJock> shouldn't make a difference buy have you tried -Y
<xp_prg> how do I try that?
<LaserJock> instead of -X use -Y
<xp_prg> LaserJock , I am trying to isntall vmware server, it needs the kernel /usr/src/linux/include
<xp_prg> what is the package I need to install to get that?
<LaserJock> I think the kernel headers
<xp_prg> the -Y did not work
<LaserJock> xp_prg: I think apt-get install linux-headers-`uname -r` should work
<LaserJock> to get the headers
<xp_prg> ok trying with apt-get install linux-headers-2.6.17-10-generic
<xp_prg> do you know what directory it puts those headers in?
<LaserJock>  /usr/src/linux/include I think
<xp_prg> wow the vmware script says that the include kenerl files don't match the current running os
<xp_prg> even though it is the same
<LaserJock> uname -r gives you 2.6.17-10-generic?
<xp_prg> yes
<LaserJock> hmmm, odd
<chovy> any idea how big a drive I need (realistically) for a full install of edubuntu?
<LaserJock> 3-5GB
<chovy> damn
<LaserJock> how much have you got?
<chovy> 2gb
<LaserJock> well, technically I think you can do it
<chovy> heh
<LaserJock> but there wouldn't be room for much of anything
<chovy> yeah
<chovy> know where to get dirt-cheap ide drives?
<LaserJock> well, newegg.com isn't too bad
<LaserJock> I just got a nice 160GB Seagate for about $50USD
<chovy> heh.
<chovy> that's like putting a ferrari engine in a gold cart
<chovy> i'm frankensteining a computer from old parts for my wife's school librarian.
<chovy> i'll check CL
<dabaR> ogra: really touching story about Fred. It reminds me that my dog is disabled, and she was always runing around really hapily...
<LaserJock> s/act
<LaserJock> bah
<cbx33> msg nickserv identify mircpass
<cbx33> whoops
<cbx33> time to password change
<willvdl> cbx33!
<willvdl> bank details :)
<cbx33> oh yeh....
<cbx33> sorry forgot about that....
<cbx33> who should I send them to?
<bddebian> Heya
<highvoltage> heya bdbbbdebian
<bddebian> Heh, heya highvoltage
<meshezabeel> I middle-dragged the 3 menus to the right of the launcher icons in the top tool bar, now I can't get those 3 menus (Applications, Places, System) back to the left. Any idea how?
<toosa>  /msg NickServ help
<sbalneav> Morning all
<Laser_away> hi sbalneav
<sbalneav> Hey Laser_away
<cbx33> ping ogra
<cbx33> hey LaserJock
<highvoltage> hey cbx33
<cbx33> hey highvoltage
<cbx33> howz it going?
<LaserJock> hi cbx33
<LaserJock> cbx33: I figured out how to set up apache on my home server last night
<cbx33> nice
<cbx33> with php5?
<LaserJock> well, how to do it while only letting my home network and uni network have access
<cbx33> ahh nice
<LaserJock> I'm a little more security-minded these days
<stgraber> using apache or iptables for the filtering thing ?
<LaserJock> so it's not on :80 and I limit IPs
<cbx33> ahh
<cbx33> cool
<LaserJock> stgraber: apache so far
<cbx33> cool
<stgraber> k
<cbx33> firestarter is pretty cool
<LaserJock> I'm behind a DSL router
<stgraber> personally I moved to a : VPN -> home network
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> alright smarty pants
<cbx33> ;)
<stgraber> it's easier if you can
<LaserJock> so I'm only letting in 2 ports to my server
<stgraber> 22+your custom port I guess
<LaserJock> I haven't done PHP yet ( I don't think)
<cbx33> heh
<LaserJock> I did install the svn and python mods
<cbx33> LaserJock, do you have a list of all the educational apps in universe?
<cbx33> ahh cool
<cbx33> svn over https is wicked cool
<LaserJock> I don't know PHP so unless I want to install something like a wiki I don't have a need for it
<cbx33> hehe
<LaserJock> and I could even you Moin for a wiki and be PHPless
<LaserJock> PHP and MySQL scare me stil
<stgraber> They are use everywhere and then are the usual target for the "hackers", I think PHP+MySQL are really powerful for the webpages but you really need to take care of the security
<cbx33> moin is awesome
<sbalneav> I'm scared of quicksand myself. :)
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> LaserJock, do you have a list?
<LaserJock> stgraber: that's why I think I'm just going to leave them out unless I really have to
<sbalneav> Fortunately, it's a good phobia to have, as I very rarely run into it. :)
<LaserJock> cbx33: it's almost impossible to create such a list, for me
* sbalneav listens to "Devo's greatest hits"
<cbx33> :(
<cbx33> i thought you had one?
<cbx33> or was that just science
<cbx33> do you knwo of any good edu apps?
<LaserJock> cbx33: the problem is they are scattered all over the repo, and it's sort of a judgment call as to what is educational and what isn't
<LaserJock> I have a list for Science yes
<stgraber> LaserJock: Once I decided to count how many times someone (or something in case of a script) is trying to use PHP security issue on my server, it was hundreds of times a day :)
<LaserJock> and I've been collectiong a list for MIRs
<cbx33> it's for the book you see
<stgraber> but : I don't have PHP as root, I don't allow mail() and my tmp directory are cleaned frequently, ... so no problem so far
<LaserJock> stgraber: cool
<LaserJock> cbx33: well, you could email edubuntu-users
<cbx33> ok
<LaserJock> cbx33: here are some resources I used:
<LaserJock>  http://richtech.ca/seul/
<LaserJock> http://www.gnomefiles.com/category.php?cat_id=13
<LaserJock> http://linuxappfinder.com/education
<LaserJock> and then some of the apps we are looking to possibly add to Edubuntu are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha/EdubuntuMIRCandidates
<cbx33> openuniverse is cool
<cbx33> man there are more apps than I ever imagined
<LaserJock> cbx33: did you see that I just got marble into Feisty the other day for oli?
<cbx33> marble?
<LaserJock> it's a world map thingy
<LaserJock> like a globe
<LaserJock> and then you type in a city and it takes you there
<LaserJock> and you can zoom in and out
<LaserJock> should be pretty cool for geography
<cbx33> like google earth?
<LaserJock> I haven't tried google earth :/
<LaserJock> probably less features
<cbx33> sound like google earth
<LaserJock> but I think it's like that idea
<cbx33> ok
<LaserJock> but it's open source
<LaserJock> works pretty slick
<LaserJock> it even had my little town I live in
<cbx33> wow
<cbx33> ping ogra
<ogra> cbx33, sorry, development team meeting now
<cbx33> oh sorry ogra
<cbx33> can I mail you a few questions about the book
<ogra> ok
<cbx33> did you get qa chance to try out the vnc yet was the only other question
<ogra> nop
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> ogra, will we know pretty much after the sprint which specs will be in and which won't?
<ogra> yep
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> that makes me feel a little easier
<cbx33> I'll be LTCMing tomrorow, I hope to add the blanking system....
<cbx33> are we confirmed moving to a icon toolbar at the top for LTCM?
<ogra> i think so ...
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> sorry I'll leave you be now....
<cbx33> I'm just getting less and less time to discuss things....
<cbx33> so I have to do it in chunks
<cbx33> would appreciate a test of the vnc to see if you concur as to it's suitability
<LaserJock> cbx33: what are you using for vnc server?
<cbx33> it will be x11vnc on the nfs roots iirc
<cbx33> for the python viewer I'm using a hacked up version of RedHat's virt-manager
<cbx33> sound good?
* LaserJock has to wrap his brain around LTSP again
<LaserJock> is the vnc server on the LTSP server or on the actual client?
<cbx33> on the client
<cbx33> iirc
<LaserJock> why wouldn't it be on the server?
<cbx33> the spec should explain it
<cbx33> well this way it allows multiple server implementtaiton
<LaserJock> wouldn't that still be the case if you vnced from the server
<cbx33> well hmm
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> srry I'm tired ;)
<LaserJock> np
<cbx33> I'm sure there's a reason
<cbx33> ogra will know
<cbx33> read the spec to see if it's in there
<cbx33> I've not got to that bit yet
<LaserJock> I was just thinking of vnc'ing from a client that is actually running on the server
<ogra> the x11vnc server runs n the client, attached to DISPLAY=:0.0
<LaserJock> why not use vino straight from the server?
<ogra> the vnc client connects to the thin client so you can see whats on the screen there
<ogra> we wouldnt be able to have tiled overviews of the classroom for example ...
<LaserJock> but shouldn't you be able to get the from the server directly too? :/
<ogra> vino would have to be started externally
<LaserJock> s/the/that/
<ogra> sure
<cbx33> ogra, I'm going for this tomorrow, GUI redesign, blanking of screens, generalisation, adding tab for processview/vnc view
<ogra> you can run vino and connect to the client IP as well if you know the password SCP generated
<cbx33> currently I'm goign to make it look at 4 screens only
<LaserJock> hmm, just seems like you are doubling the traffic if the client is getting everything from the server anyway
<cbx33> it will only have 4 vnc sessions running at anyone time
<LaserJock> but I'm certainly no LTSP or server expert
<ogra> but you cant connect to the running ssh tunnel in a sane way
<ogra> you need the contents of the client display ...
<LaserJock> ogra: will you need anything from me for edubuntu-on-2-cds next week?
<ogra> i dont know any way around connecting to the thin client
<ogra> a list would be nice
<cbx33> ogra, 4 vnc's shouldn't be crippling
<cbx33> shuold it?
<ogra> how's the MIR situation ?
<ogra> cbx33, no idea, test it
<cbx33> heh
<LaserJock> ogra: well, I was sort of expecting more feedback (as usual)
<cbx33> will try, but I have a lot of work to do before I get to that stage
<LaserJock> ogra: but I can take the list I have on the wiki page and start digging material for MIRs and toss out any obvious problem packages
<ogra> good
<ogra> that should be a start
<LaserJock> it might be mostly science for the first go around
<LaserJock> as there are a lot to choose from and seem to be fairly in demand
<ogra> apart from that it seems there are many people intrested in herd testing at the forums ....
<ogra> probably we can get more feedback from there
<cbx33> ogra can we set the default options for the x11vnc server to be low quality and high encoding?
<ogra> sure
<LaserJock> hmm, should I open a thread on the "Education and Science" subforum?
<ogra> just give me the parameters you want, i will add them to the initscript
<ogra> LaserJock, good idea
<LaserJock> ogra: ok, will do
<cbx33> ok, ogra, is herd 2 working well enough for edubuntu
<cbx33> in other words...can I install a test environmen
<cbx33> and install x11vnc in the nfs root
<ogra> i'm fine with any list you give me for the start ... the rest of the CD will be stuffed with langpacks
<cbx33> and get this thing tested?
<ogra> sure
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> herd2 worked fine for me during testing
<cbx33> I'll hack up all I can without it....and then run it to fix it up
<LaserJock> ogra: how much room do you think langpacks will take?
<cbx33> my laptop can't support vmware you see
<ogra> LaserJock, all thats left
<cbx33> so I have to do all that type of stuff on my desktop at home
<LaserJock> ogra: heh, ok
<ogra> i will just fill them up
<cbx33> but most of my dev work takes place on the car journey to and from work
<ogra> even though we need to decide about winFOSS ....
<LaserJock> ogra: I'm sure there will be many South Americans loving you for Feisty
<ogra> we could put some windows apps n it as well
<ogra> and asians
<LaserJock> is the Ubuntu winFOSS also on Edubuntu?
<ogra> no, but if we have space left i'm fine to consider it for the second CD
<LaserJock> hmm, I've never been a big fan of it, but some people seem to be :-)
<cbx33> people at BETT would have been if I could give it to them on CD
<ogra> well, richEd wants to promote win/linux interoperability with edubuntu
<ogra> winfoss helps there
<LaserJock> yeah, I would just think that a seperate CD is the way to go there
<LaserJock> instead of taking up 50-60MB on an installation CD
<cbx33> ogra is the filter high/low proority on the spec?
<ogra> high
<ogra> you said its trivial
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> yes i did didn't i
<cbx33> oh heck I'll try to implement everything
<cbx33> may need a little bit of help from you on some bits but I'll do my best to get everything done
<ogra> we'll go with what you got by feature freeze ... just make sure to produce no regressions in functionallity
<cbx33> how could I regress it?
<cbx33> it's only gonna move forward
<cbx33> ;)
<cbx33> ogra for now at least, the vnc stuff will be gnome only
<cbx33> its all gtk based
<cbx33> and tbph I'm not well up enough on it to make it generic
<ogra> ok
<cbx33> i may be able to for feisty + 1
<cbx33> but it's gonna mean hacking up the virt-manager vnc stuff to be generic
<ogra> keep that in the frontend then and QT needs to find its own solution
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> ogra, how will the locking screen be handled if they are running a kde environment?
<cbx33> for now the backend will assume gnoe
<ogra> then you need to add a kscreensaver patch they send you
<LaserJock> ogra: hmm, interesting news regarding kwii
<LaserJock> kwwii rather
<ogra> yes
<ogra> seems it makes more sense than last minute outsourcing
<LaserJock> yeah, I'd much rather see him working on it then just some guy off the streat ;-)
<LaserJock> *street, I can't spell today
<ajmitch> ogra: what are your plans for edubuntu-network-auth-* next week, and what do you need?
* ajmitch guesses the sprint will generally be in the evening, NZ time
<LaserJock> hmmm, now I'm confused as to Canonical structure and what it means WRT Ubuntu
<ajmitch> LaserJock: it's always a confusion
<ogra> ajmitch, actually i still need to package the smbldap scripts
<ogra> all i should need then is slapd and edsadmin
<ogra> the latter is a bit tricky, there are license files missing
<ogra> need to talk to upstream
<ogra> my main work will be debconf scripting
<ajmitch> yeah, I want to see what you need preseeded for the client, so I can hack that in ASAP :)
<ajmitch> seems like it'll be a wet weekend here, perfect for hacking
* ajmitch loves summer..
<ogra> we're currently being blown off the face of the earth
<ogra> up to 200km/h winds here
<ajmitch> wow
<ogra> and 11C
<ogra> in january its usually -5 or colder and surely not windy at all
<ajmitch> about 20C here
<LaserJock> bah
<ajmitch> you have plans for the e-n-a-client spec next week?
<LaserJock> it's about -5C or so here
<ogra> not really ... i'll need to look into the pieces again ... i focused on the python-ltsp stuff recently
<ajmitch> ok
<ogra> i plan to attack it during the week though
<ajmitch> I'll be around if you want help with some parts of it
<ogra> the last week somehow threw me behind schedule, i have to get that straight again ...
<LaserJock> ajmitch: heh, wanna help me do some MIRs? :-)
<ajmitch> LaserJock: for what?
<LaserJock> ajmitch: oh, like 20 or so educational apps
<ajmitch> should only take you a few minutes
<ajmitch> trying to fill up the 2nd cd? :)
<LaserJock> well, kinda
<LaserJock> ogra's gong to be the one doing most of the filling (with lang packs)
<LaserJock> *going
<ogra> no
<ogra> i'm going to fill all the *remaining* space with langpacks
<LaserJock> I don't think I can get 700MB worth of edu apps in Main for feisty ;-)
<ogra> they are and wll alsways be the gap filling pieces, but the second CD is for the apps first place
#edubuntu 2007-01-19
<cslater> Hi folks - wanted to let you know that the site I run - Instalinux - gives an option to install edubuntu now
<cslater> For Edgy install
<LaserJock> interesting, cool
<cslater> You select Ubuntu, and then one of the options - under bundles - is to pick Edubuntu
<cslater> Showed Edubuntu to some teachers recently btw - they were SO amazed.  Great stuff :)
<LaserJock> cslater: great
<LaserJock> cbx33: you really here?
<cbx33> LaserJock: yes
<cbx33> been up for about 4 hours now
<cbx33> working on SCP
<willvdl> LTCM if you please
<cbx33> sorry willvdl
<willvdl> :] 
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> how are you willvdl LaserJock ?
<cbx33> willvdl: I managed to get hold of claire
<willvdl> good. all sorted?
<cbx33> yup
<willvdl> !seen pips1
<ubotu> I last saw pips1 (n=philipp@55-158.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch) 1d 11h 46m 49s ago, quiting: "Ex-Chat"
<LaserJock> what does LTCM stand for now?
<willvdl> Linux thin client manager?
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> well, I suppose I better get to bed
<LaserJock> almost 02:00 here
<willvdl> nn
<LaserJock> cya all tomorrow ... err later today ;-)
<willvdl> ciao
<pips1> willvdl: ping
<willvdl> pong
<pips1> sorry I'm late
<pips1> I was talking to someone in the office
<willvdl> no worries, my inbox is huge today
<pips1> are you fine with chatting now?
<willvdl> I'd just like to chat about web & wiki
<willvdl> so that I'm in tune with your plans & goals and stuff
<pips1> ok
<willvdl> I started a https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki/Cleanup page for
<willvdl> cleaning up our wiki.
<willvdl> more as a resource for me but it proves quite handy.
<pips1> wow that is a good structured page
<willvdl> and a https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki/Archive so that I don't delete anything
<willvdl> and I read through all your site planning pages
<pips1> great. any questions lingering on your mind?
<willvdl> now the www site has docs in it
<willvdl> I asked Jerome about that
<willvdl> he said it was a first pass at getting some solid docs like isntall guides etc.
<willvdl> How do you feel about keeping such docs in the drupal site?
<pips1> well... I'm not 100% sure of how things will change in the next months... I think RichEd should make the final decisions...
<pips1> I can tell you what the two of us have talked about though
<willvdl> okie
<juliux> morning
<pips1> There will be two "sites" (with individual domain names)
<pips1> one is the official, already existing edubuntu.org/.com site
<willvdl> and the new one
<pips1> the other one is the to be developed edubuntu community site
<willvdl> yeah
<pips1> the first one will be fairly small and hold mostly static content
<pips1> the second one will be (hopefully) very dynamic and community driven
<willvdl> right
<pips1> that's the *edubuntu*-specific side of things... it has to interweave with the whole other *buntu universe, of course
<willvdl> how do you see that working?
<willvdl> forums, ML, LP etc
<willvdl> wiki...
<pips1> Matt Nuzum is trying to improve the whole "official" ubuntu site and links to "sub-sites" / partner-sites situation, AFIAK
<willvdl> ok
<willvdl> will our wiki space stay where it is?
<pips1> the important part is that people new to *buntu don't get lost...
<willvdl> true
<willvdl> ++
<pips1> RichEd wants to "re-brand" the edubuntu wiki and align it better to the ubuntu wiki style
<willvdl> in look and feel?
<willvdl> or content structure
<pips1> both wikis are in the same repository, so that you can find any wiki page e.g. /EdubuntuWiki at *both* domains wiki.u.c and wiki.edubuntu.org ... the look depends on what domain you use...
<willvdl> not really. the look depends on the stylesheet you choose in your settings (if logged in)
<willvdl> but I'm with you there
<pips1> ok, you can override styles in your settings, but most first time visitory and novice users wont really know about individual settings
<pips1> *visitors
<willvdl> OK. our wiki stays physically where it is though right?
<pips1> yes
<willvdl> cool. same with forums?
<pips1> personally, I feel that wikis are the way forward for collaborative documentation. wikipedia...
<willvdl> true. you familiar with help.ubuntu.com?
<pips1> the forums will stay where they are... but we will try to center/encourage educational topics on our new drupal community site
<willvdl> gotcha. I'm aware of the scope of the new community scope
<willvdl> (and am quite excited about it)
<willvdl> OK, lets get back to documentation...
<pips1> i.e. use drupal forums feature for educational topics and keep the more "pure" technical topics in the ubuntuforums area
<pips1> i haven't really read much on help.u.c so far
<willvdl> well, help.u.c has a wiki for all *buntu wiki docs
<pips1> but I'm aware it exists... I don't really know what is going on in the whole documentation space though
<willvdl> and wiki.u.c is the planning/collaboration/LP spec/everything else wiki space
<pips1> right
<willvdl> in short: *buntu Documentation goes on help.u.c
<pips1> that's what I figured so far
<willvdl> easy enough :) but confusing sometimes. Doc team is working on making it clear
<pips1> you are talking about *polished* / finalised documentation on help.u.c, right?
<willvdl> well, there are the "packaged" SVN docs
<pips1> what isn't clear to me is the *process* of documentation
<willvdl> and the wiki space
<willvdl> their is the SVN repository which can be previewed on doc.ubuntu.com
<willvdl> I'll write a page to demysity it as soon as I can
<willvdl> demystify rather
<pips1> ah, I almost forgot about doc.u.c
<willvdl> pips1, essentially the community works on the wiki to produce info
<pips1> so what is the difference about doc.u.c and help.u.c ?
<willvdl> and then community also takes that info and pops it into docbook in the SVN
<willvdl> doc.u.c is a WIP snapshot
<pips1> ic
<willvdl> help.u.c is a tagged release i.e.edgy docs etc.
<pips1> ok
<willvdl> the docs in the SVN get packaged into ubuntu-docs.deb etc and released
<pips1> are there people working offline and using only the svn repository ? or does everybody use the wiki web interface?
<willvdl> they go into yelp, khelpcentre etc., browser startpage, PDF...anything
<willvdl> pips1, there are guys who work mostly on SVN
<willvdl> not many but enough (edubuntu lacks though... ++ for nixternal and LAserJock)
<cbx33> LTCM has tileable vnc viewer
<cbx33> ;)
<cbx33> awesome of what
<willvdl> cbx33 ++
<pips1> i see, does the "svn direct input" stuff surface on the doc.u.c wiki ? on how? (what interval, etc?)
<cbx33> only problem is it's a little intensive on the old cpu at the moment
<cbx33> will be sorting that out asap
<cbx33> but concept wise it's there
<willvdl> pips1 not sure of the frequency of the build. hope it is daily
<willvdl> but svn checkout is always current
<willvdl> it is subtle what info goes in SVN but I'd like to think that the core work gets done on wiki and the SVN authors just pull the info into docbook from the wiki
<pips1> ok, so the snv stuff is published on the doc.u.c wiki... is that content locked? or can people change those pages through wiki-editing? (and if so, doesn't that break versioning of svn)?
<willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam has a guide on contributing
<willvdl> basically, you can be granted SVN access if you prove yourself
<willvdl> you prove yourself by supplying patches to the docs
<willvdl> no wiki editing unfortunately
<pips1> so if I want to suggest a change for a page on doc.u.c, I have to formally apply with a 'change patch'? ah....
<willvdl> yip. until you get access like cbx33 :)
<willvdl> this process seems to work fine cause the docteam are quite good at it
<pips1> wow, I thought that people can edit wiki-wise... wow
<willvdl> the wiki is free-for-all, the svn is a little better protected or moderated
<pips1> So most wiki-editing features aren't really used at all on doc.u.c !
<willvdl> the reason being that the svn info gets packaged and is "official"
<willvdl> doc.u.c is not a wiki
<pips1> ahhh ok
<willvdl> edubuntu's current problem is either a lack of docs or a lack of structure for our docs
<pips1> hold on.. is help.u.c a wiki?
<willvdl> help.u.c frontpage is static
<willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam is wiki
<willvdl> oops, sorry
<willvdl> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation is wiki
<pips1> oh
<willvdl> there are pro's and con's on this structure but if you check th ML's you'll see it was not an easy or quick debate :)
<willvdl> anyway, the technical docs we have in our drupal site *should* logically go into SVN docbook docs
<pips1> so people can edit wiki pages "below" https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation I take it?
<willvdl> yip
<willvdl> delete/rename privilages are not free though
<pips1> so what is the "hierarchy" system for documentors? svn rights, wiki delete/rename rights?
<willvdl> something like that
<willvdl> but SVN docs and wiki docs, although related, are not the same thing
<pips1> or do you get both access to svn and wiki editing if you proved yourself?
<willvdl> to edit/create wiki pages on help.u.c is free to all
<pips1> i mean you gain access in one step
<willvdl> delete/rename rights, I'm not sure
<willvdl> maybe join ubuntu-website team or something... don't know
<willvdl> but you can always request that action through LP or email etc.
<pips1> I see how the process (and storage) is different for snv and help.u.c documentation, but what is the logical difference regarding those two "kinds" of documentation?
<willvdl> good question :)
<willvdl> well,
<willvdl> SVN docs are "official" and get packaged. they appear on the website as official docs, the go into the desktop Yelp system and PDF versions
<willvdl> there is little margin for error in them
<pips1> right
<willvdl> The SVN authors either get their info from the wiki docs (free to contributions) or from their own heads
<willvdl> I like this structure given one thing:
<pips1> so the wiki docs are some sort of "staging" area for the official docs..
<willvdl> yeah. essentially.
<willvdl> as such they will generally contain more info but may not necessarily be wellw ritten etc.
<willvdl> The SVN docs are easily tagged to release. Edgy docs vs dapper docs etc. SVN does that naturally
<willvdl> but the wiki doesn't
<willvdl> so I'm a little concerned about info on the wiki that goes out of date.
<pips1> i understand
<willvdl> hence my interest in the HelpWikiQualityAssurance spec
<willvdl> but it si easily dealt with, just need consistency
<willvdl> and as ogra suggested, good use of wiki namespaces
<willvdl> or categories etc.
<pips1> also, I do wonder how they make sure that inter-documentation references work... I suppose that the snv documentors need to re-link everything when they take a wiki doc page and destill it into a snv doc page/element
<willvdl> you'll see contributions to SVN docs come as: email suggestions, patches sent to editors, irc conversations or Launchpad bugs
<willvdl> yeah, I'm out of date with docbook tech but they do something like that
<pips1> wow, those documentors are doing a trememdous job!
<willvdl> #ubuntu-doc is a good channel
<pips1> tremendous
<willvdl> The doc team has some good guys in it
<willvdl> very dedicated
<willvdl> I'd like to ask you a quick question?
<pips1> go ahead
<willvdl> we have some "overlap" on the www and wiki site
<willvdl> frontpage, community page, getting help page etc.
<pips1> which www site? are you talking about www.edubuntu.org and wiki.edubuntu.org ?
<willvdl> yes
<pips1> what do you mean by overlap
<pips1> ?
<willvdl> well
<willvdl> take the frontpages for each
<willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki & http://www.edubuntu.org/
<willvdl> same info, slightly different in places
<willvdl> http://www.edubuntu.org/Community & https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunity
<willvdl> the wiki is generally a bit out of date
<willvdl> compared to www site
<pips1> right
<willvdl> I think we should try and decide what will go on www site and delete it from the wiki
<willvdl> i.e. community page is pretty static, may change once a year.
<pips1> let's take a step back
<pips1> let's consider two aspects
<pips1> people who contribute information to sites, and novices that make their first steps with the *ubuntu universe
<willvdl> ok?
<pips1> now, let's just look at the people who contribute, and their tools
<willvdl> wiki, docbook, drupal etc?
<pips1> let's assume that everyone who contributes the most "official" stuff is knowlegable about the tools and process the most
<willvdl> right
<pips1> those people are happy to use any tool... generally speaking
<willvdl> yeah
<pips1> for technical people, they will use command line snv tools, through-the-web wiki editing... you name it they can do it (although they might have distinct preferences)
<willvdl> novices will most likely start with wiki editing?
<pips1> then, there might be an intermediate group... I always thought that these people are happy to learn wiki-syntax, which doesn't come 100% naturally
<pips1> novices... hm
<pips1> I think of wiki-editors as intermediate
<willvdl> ok I'm with you
<pips1> keep in mind, most of the ubuntu community is currently still slanted towards people who are generally fond and fascinated by new technology
<willvdl> uhuh
<pips1> so if you look at this "elite", the wiki-editors might appear as novice... but when you target people that aren't technologists, they are intermediate
<willvdl> so novices are more like: email
<pips1> the "true" novice might use email, and possibly forums (with wysiwyg editors)
<pips1> also, novices might not be so good to navigate the www
<willvdl> if the www is made too complex that is
<pips1> they don't google their way around... they find a site, and then try to discover stuff from there... by navigation links on the site.
<willvdl> so "core" links and info must stem from the front page
<pips1> the *buntu universe is rather complex: with official site, LP, wiki, forums, ML, etc., etc.
<willvdl> :)
<pips1> mind you, I'm still talking with people in mind who will *contribute* stuff
<juliux> willvdl, i ordered some powered by edubuntu stickers by jenda;)
<willvdl> juliux, didn't know we had any :)
<pips1> e.g. educators who want to contribute to the edubuntu project, or simply who want to discuss and share something about education
<juliux> willvdl, we will have now some;)
<willvdl> pips1, how does this relate to the wiki vs www?
<pips1> to cut it short: I think we should use the wiki as an "editing/contribution tool" for all "official and semi-official information"
<pips1> edubuntu.org doesn't really need to be a drupal site
<pips1> but the edubuntu community site does
<willvdl> true. but for edubuntu.org to have nice news reels etc, it helps to use a CMS
<willvdl> mind you, that is Matt Nuzum's domain right?
<pips1> hmm
<pips1> what do you mean by "that" is "Matt Nuzum's domain" ?
<willvdl> meaning edubuntu.org, kubuntu.com and ubuntu.com is his responsability?
<pips1> well, I guess it is his responsibility technically.
<willvdl> anyway, not really important
<pips1> right
<willvdl> so what stuff would you keep on the www.e.org rather than the wiki?
<pips1> anyway, I think the line goes more along "official and (fairly) static" and "community and very dynamic"
* pips1 pauses for a moment and tries to think how "ubuntu" does their news
<willvdl> planet, fridge etc I think
<willvdl> and a banner at top of www.u.c
<pips1> right! fridge is drupal powered
<willvdl> www.u.c has "news" stories in nodes on frontpage
<willvdl> but mainly release announcements etc.
<pips1> let's try to distinguish 'content creation' and 'content display'
<willvdl> easy enough
<pips1> I think the content creation is done in drupal and then that content is syndicated to other places via rss feeds, no?
<willvdl> for fridge?
<pips1> I'm not sure how it works, really, but my guess is that news items on the fridge authored in drupal.
<pips1> and individual noteworthy news items might then by fed into the u.c site
<pips1> but I'm not sure how it's done, really
<willvdl> there is a page explaining how it works
<pips1> there is?
<willvdl> can't remember where. anyway we digress :)
<willvdl> let's start a temp wiki page for deciding what info/page goes on www site and what goes on wiki?
<willvdl> I think this is relative priority since I've already had mails along the lines of people not knowing which info is the right stuff
<willvdl> got confused between duplicate info that was slightly different or dated
<pips1> well, what I'm trying to get at is that the "ubuntu world" uses specialised tools for each "task". they have wiki for (lots of things, but amongst them the official static site), drupal for news, vBulletin for ubuntuforums, ...
<willvdl> uhuh
<pips1> however, for our edubuntu "niche", I suggest use the wiki for the official site and drupal as a combined news+forums site
<willvdl> you're talking about the new community site?
<pips1> most of the news will be community driven anyway
<pips1> yes
<willvdl> ah, I'm talking about the official site
<pips1> well, I suggest that we might as well convert everything on the current edubuntu.org official site into the wiki, as locked pages ?
<willvdl> ok
<pips1> similar to how it is done for u.c
<willvdl> okay.
<willvdl> either way
<pips1> there are some static and locked wiki pages that are the official info, but they reside in the wiki nevertheless (i think)
<willvdl> ok. the www.e.org will then link to wiki pages for community, how to contribute, etc
<pips1> right, you what to get the duplication problem sorted
<willvdl> I have no problem with having some "Static" pages on the www.e.org site for "where the community is"
<willvdl> "how to contribute" etc.
<pips1> all the basic and static info can end up in locked wiki pages, IMO
<willvdl> but whether it is on www or wiki is not really a problem
<willvdl> fine with me.
<pips1> when will RichEd be back?
<willvdl> not sure, next week?
<willvdl> I'll start a process of updating the wiki pages so that the www site has something to link to
<pips1> I would like him to be on the same page...
<cbx33> whos good with network units?
<cbx33> I have a 35kb/s
<cbx33> is that high or low
<cbx33> comparred to a 100Mb/s connection
<willvdl> pips1, agreed
<willvdl> cbx33: 512kbps x 1000 = 512 000 bps
<willvdl> 512 000 bps / 8 = 64 000 Bps
<willvdl> 64 000 Bps / 1024 = 62.5 kBps
<cbx33> and so?
<willvdl> just to help with conversion
<willvdl> pips1, I think we're on the same page
<cbx33> willvdl: thanks
<pips1> I think so too, but I haven't talked to RichEd since UDS MV
<willvdl> as this progresses, I'll try and input info as to how we use LP, ML etc
<willvdl> have a look at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunity/LaunchpadStructure
<pips1> and while we have talked through a lot of things, we still need to agree on the exact plan and next steps
<willvdl> well, I'd like to seperate the new community site from the official site
<willvdl> and start working on a crisp and clear official edubuntu wiki space
<pips1> fine with me :-)
<willvdl> secondary: move docs that are on www.e.org into doc-team space and hopefully into the handbook or isntall guide or something
<willvdl> My main problem is that I am running out of time to work on docs :)
<willvdl> as of Feb I am going to be on the road until April
<cbx33> yikes
<willvdl> pips1 I think priority is our "front" page and core links from it.
<pips1> sure
<willvdl> for new users and existing users who want to contribute
<willvdl> I'd like to clear that up first.
<willvdl> 2) move technical docs to right place
<pips1> mind you, there are currently only 9 pages in drupal that could move to the wiki, it isn't a lot
<willvdl> yeah, shouldn't take long
<willvdl> we have wiki weekend coming up. maybe use that
<pips1> this weekend?
<willvdl> 3) look to see how we can get our edubuntu docteam and web team more inline and integrated with ubuntu teams
<willvdl> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiTeam/WikiWeekend
<willvdl> 4) see how new community site works with official site
<willvdl> what you think?
* pips1 reads points again
<pips1> I'm ok with those points.
<pips1> for 1) I can certainly change the links from the front page once content (9 pages) has moved to wiki pages
<willvdl> cool. I'll start work on 1). It won't affect anything anyone should our minds change etc.
<willvdl> pips1, what do you think about wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki vs wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu?
<pips1> I think 2) is a good move, since there needs to be some official documentation on LTSP that is shipped in edubuntu (Yelp)
<willvdl> sbalneav is on it
<willvdl> I'm hoping it can get into server guide too
<pips1> wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu is probably better
<willvdl> yeah, more in line with Kubuntu etc.
<pips1> but then again, I don't know how your names space for the wiki should work
<willvdl> We should check with the community though as it will affect peoples links and style
<pips1> s/your namespace/the namespace
<willvdl> EdubuntuWiki is redundant since it is already a wiki :)
<willvdl> wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu as a frontpage make sense to me
<willvdl> it is already there
<willvdl> let's use that and just redirect from edubuntuwiki so that no one is affected
<pips1> right
<willvdl> any sub-pages to edubuntuwiki were written by me so I'm happy to move them :)
<willvdl> have you thought of potential names for new comm site?
<pips1> RichEd already got the name, but let's not mention it just here just now :-)
<willvdl> no prob :)
<willvdl> okie, I must run for now but will be back later
<willvdl> pips1, great chatting to you. thanks for the help
<pips1> regarding 3) in general, I think it is good to "integrate" teams, but mind you, you might want to talk to people rather then just "reassigning" them :) it's not a big deal though, since we are only few and you probably already talked to most (?)
<willvdl> absolutely.
<pips1> ok, good talking to you, cu
<willvdl> I try to do that in all the edubuntu meetings
<willvdl> most of the doc contributers are members of the doc-team
<willvdl> so moving stuff to doc-team space is no problem
<pips1> just to let you know, I am now getting lots of doc-wiki related email, so I might actually sign off from the edubuntu-doc-team to avoid them... I don't have time to read them.
<willvdl> no worries
<pips1> I'm just telling you that as a "feedback" so you know what reactions you might get when you did the "sub-teams" arrangement in LP :-)
<willvdl> noted, thanks
<willvdl> anyhoo, I must run now. catch you all in a few hours
<pips1> got to go too, cu folks
<AstralJava> Hey all! Does anyone else have problems with usb pendrives on ltsp clients? I have a situation where some stuff on the drive can be seen, but not everything that you can see on another machine, say like a normal linux laptop. For instance there are two directories, only one of which is accessible on the ltsp client machine. The drive is mounted normally every time, and no weird messages can be found in the logs, least the logs I am 
<ogra> AstralJava, nope, i havent see that ...
<AstralJava> The system is actually not Edubuntu. It's very much like it, thought. Base install is from Dapper.
<AstralJava> Okay thanks ogra!
<ogra> dapper had no localdev support
<ogra> thats only in since edgy
<AstralJava> Hmm, I'll go look that one up.
<ogra> in edgy its the default
<ogra> (in edubuntu)
<ogra> and easy to enable in normal ubuntu
<AstralJava> Right on.
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnableLTSP5LocalDevices has some hints for edgy
<AstralJava> Thanks!
<cbx33> ogra you there?
<cbx33> dude I have two vnc sessions in the LTCM window
<ogra> cbx33, yes, but not for long discussions
<cbx33> no no...it's just a w00t statement
<ogra> what does th eL stand for ?
<cbx33> LTSP
<ogra> in LTCM =
<cbx33> I thought
<ogra> nah
<cbx33> just TCM
<ogra> target of the renaming is to suppress the LTSP name
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> dude it's working
<ogra> we'll have TCM and TCC
<ogra> thats great
<cbx33> and load on the server isn't too high either
<ogra> congrats
<ogra> do yu read ubuntu-users ?
<cbx33> I've sent an email to the redhat guys but no responece yet
<cbx33> not usually....
<cbx33> y?
<ogra> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2007-January/104937.html
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> well, the network throughput isn't massive from my simple tests
<cbx33> and plus it's going the other way
<cbx33> so we should be ok
<cbx33> bad news....x11vnc doesn't seem to support compression
<cbx33> and scaling breaks the viewer
<ogra> well
<ogra> if you find a server implementation we can support that does these things we'll use that one ... else we'll have to ive with x11vnc
<AstralJava> ogra: Just to bug you some more about the usb drive issue, I confirmed that we are using the ltsp-4.2.x package that has ltspfs included.
<AstralJava> So have you got any ideas on how to investigate the problem?
<AstralJava> Bit more info, it seems that usb stick mount point $(HOME)/Drives/ doesn't get cleared everytime the stick is unmounted. Not sure if it tells you anything.
<ogra> AstralJava, ltsp 4.2 is obsolete from edgy on, upstream just switches to ltsp5, all development is going on there
<ogra> if you have probs with 4.2 look at the ltsp.org wiki
<ogra> we dont support it ...
<ogra> search for ltspfs checklist there ..., the 4.2 implementation is pretty different to the ltspfs in ltsp5
<AstralJava> Right, okay. Thanks for your time. I'll go hunting there.
<AstralJava> Btw. I've been meaning to look this way more lately, I started a new job last Dec. and I'm involved with ltsp heavily now. Edubuntu seems very interesting, so I might show my nose around here more often in the future. So pleased to meet you, Oliwer. :)
<willvdl> ogra, seems I'm getting edubuntu-users list problems as well
<ogra> i havent filed an rt ticket yet, but was told to do so
<ogra> highvoltage, do you know any specific mirrors for edubuntu apart from the ones we use anyway in ubuntu ? Znarl wants to update the mirror list on www.ubuntu.com
<ogra> i have no idea if we use any additional ones
<bddebian> Heya
<Slayer84> Ive looked at edubuntu for thinclients. But i have som(proberly stupid) questions.
<Slayer84> When ive installed edubuntu i add users(one pr client) dont i have to set some quote, so the users dont use all the space on the disk?
<Slayer84> And what if i want tp let the users share files with each other? Would a nfs drive be the best solution?
<Slayer84> Hmm where thay THAT stupid:-)
<ogra> Slayer84, the users are logged in on the server, not on the client ....
<ogra> so they can share files locally
<ogra> if you fear your users could use up to much diskspace you can indeed set quotas ...
<Slayer84> Ahh just a shared folder!
<Slayer84> I told you that the questions proberly where stupid:-)
<Slayer84> Anyway to add a shotcut to the shared folder, when adding the user account
<Slayer84> ?
<willvdl> presumably a soft link? ln -s ?
<Slayer84> hmm but could that be done at the same time as the "adduser" command?
<ogra> just write a script ...
<ogra> ltsp-adduser.sh
<ogra> #!/bin/bash
<ogra> adduser $1
<ogra> ln -s yourfolder /home/$1/Desktop/
<ogra> something like that
<Slayer84> Nice Thank you very much!
<willvdl> ogra, presumably a group setting on the shared folder will help? or is that already there?
<Slayer84> It will be there
<ogra> willvdl, yes
<highvoltage> ogra: not that I know of. I didn't even know an Edubuntu specific mirror was possible.
<juliux> hi highvoltage how are you?
<highvoltage> good juliux!
<highvoltage> and you?
<juliux> highvoltage, good to hear
<highvoltage> juliux: I saw you say something earlier and thought I just have to ask you about it when I catch you again
<highvoltage> but somehow I can't remember what it was
<highvoltage> </long day>
<juliux> highvoltage, i am fine, but i have to learn a lot of things for my examens
<highvoltage> exams for?
<juliux> yes
<juliux> university
<juliux> i have 4 this time
<highvoltage> ouch
<highvoltage> I mean, what are you studying? Computer Science?
<juliux> i switched to information managment
<highvoltage> ah ok
<juliux> informatics was not the right thing for me
<highvoltage> I'm not even sure what the difference is
<juliux> information managment is a mix
<juliux> i have now business studies, economics and informatics
<littlepaul> hi
<littlepaul> I have a question just to check the concept. (I leave out the use of lts.conf)
<littlepaul> I changed to the chroot via chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 and in the chroot environment I called
<littlepaul> dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg and changed the keyboard layout from de to gr or us.
<littlepaul> The thinclient boots with the choosen layout.
<littlepaul> Now my problem: I remain in the chroot environment and I edit the xorg.conf and change form us or gr back to de and save the file. After rebooting the thinclient the keyboard layout remains as configured with dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg. So changing back only works with dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg and not via editing the xorg.conf directly. To be sur I even restarted booth (server and thinclient)
<littlepaul> As said it is just as proofe of concept. I know that I could use the lts.conf.
<ogra> which would be the right way to do it
<ogra> its intresting that this works for you ... it actually shouldnt since the xorg config gets overwritten on every boot
<littlepaul> ogra it realy worked
<littlepaul> to be sure I deleted the xorg.conf and the client could'nt build a connection to X via ssh
<ogra> oh, wait, debconf will keep the values you choose ... so it generates the xorg.conf with these values ...
<littlepaul> so it works as designed from your view and no change needed?
<littlepaul> change = bug fix :)
<ogra> well, we could make use of it, i never thought about abusing the debconf db as lts.conf replacement
<juliux> with lts.conf it is a little bit easier to change the settings
<ogra> well, i'm just working on python-ltsp, an easy to use python module to change the settings soon you shouldnt need to touch anything like lts.conf anymore
<littlepaul> ogra, thx for your answer
<juliux> ogra, that is realy cool
<ogra> you're welcome
<humbolto> does edubuntu use the same repos as ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu use?
<LaserJock> yes
<humbolto> does the edubuntu installer setup all of LTSP for you or do I have to hack some commands to make it work, like I would have, when installing it on ubuntu?
<LaserJock> it should pretty much just work
<ogra> humbolto, if you have tw etwork cards in the server during install everything will just work
<ogra> *two network cards
<humbolto> why two?
<humbolto> one for inet?
<humbolto> or for normal lan?
<humbolto> and the other for thin client net
<humbolto> if I would install ubuntu and then edubuntu-server, would LTSP still be setup without any user interaction?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> you would miss the things the installer does
<humbolto> and what if I don't have two network cards?
<ogra> whioch is actually only the automatic setup of /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf beyond the usually ltsp-build-client
<humbolto> the real question is, does it make any sense to download the edubuntu installer cds if I already have the ubuntu ones and just want to install one single server?
<ogra> then just follow the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall guide
<ogra> you dont need the edubuntu-server package for ltsp ;)
<humbolto> ogra: ok, the installer sets up the dhcp and runs ltsp-build-client, while installing the meta package would not do that?
<ogra> right
<humbolto> ogra: how to generate thin client boot disks and roms?
<ogra> the edubuntu-server metapackage depends on more than ltsp
<humbolto> do not have pxe cards
<ogra> either get PXE capable cards or go to rom-o-matic.net
<humbolto> ogra: what kind of image do I need?
<ogra> the etherboot images from there should just work
<ogra> the right one for your card ...
<humbolto> I tried with the once I was using with ltsp4.2 and they did not really work
<ogra> there is a howto on the page
<ogra> the ones you used with ltsp 4.2 should work, at least with edgy
<humbolto> I have installed ltsp 4 several times, but ran into trouble with the edgy/etch version
<humbolto> hmmm
<humbolto> kernel booted but stopped at one time
<humbolto> the message was shown to short to get it and pause key did not work
<ogra> hmm, you should not see any bootmessages, rater the bootsplash
<humbolto> had the boot messages, but the thing rebooted itself to quickly after kernel boot stopped with an error
<ogra> weird
<humbolto> don't even know it it was an error
<humbolto> yes
<humbolto> anyhow, if I use the meta package, will tftp and nfs still be setup for me or do I have to configure them myself?
<ogra> thats something the ltsp-server-standalone package does for you
<humbolto> great!
<ogra> its realy as easy as the QuickIstall guide describes
<humbolto> super cool!
<humbolto> are you an edubuntu dev?
<ogra> yp
<ogra> *yep
<humbolto> then thanks a lot, you guys rock!!!!!
<LaserJock> humbolto: he's *the* Edubuntu dev
<ogra> thanks :)
<humbolto> I go down on my knees!
<humbolto> And kiss your feet!
<ogra> nah :)
<humbolto> Great job.
<humbolto> So the LTSP stuff in edubuntu is all your job?
<ogra> much of it, yes
<LaserJock> humbolto: we also have one of the LTSP devs that helps quite a bit
<humbolto> Anyhow, I read about what is planned for feisty and I have to state once again, *buntu is doing the job right! User/Task use case centered all over.
<humbolto> And the way the dev is managed by launchpad is just great!
<humbolto> Super transparent and open even for the most unexperienced user to contribute at least some use cases so the devs know how people want it to work.
<humbolto> great job, once again! great job!
<ogra> :)
<humbolto> now finally debian in a remote sense has got in contact with the user base
<ogra> debian itself starts changing as well ...
<ogra> (at least it claims to)
<humbolto> hope so
<humbolto> hope one day, they have something like launchpad
<humbolto> launchpad is proprietary, right?
<humbolto> could be great to coordinate the flow between debian and ubuntu
<humbolto> but if it is proprietary debian wont accept it
<ogra> well, many debian devs use it ...
<ogra> others dont like it ... its debian ...
<ogra> they use bzr (the version control system behind launchpad) a lot in debian though
<ogra> even the ones that dislike LP
<humbolto> one more question, which login manager is used in edubuntu
<LaserJock> it's called ldm
<humbolto> and since the whole thing is tunneled through ssh, I don't need to turn on xdmcp in my desktop manager, right?
<LaserJock> nope
<LaserJock> no xdmcp
<humbolto> but ldm does not seem to be installed it I try to install ltsp-standalone-server.
<humbolto> I see sdm however
<ogra> ldm gets installed in the client environment by ltsp-build-client
<ogra> no need for it on the server
<humbolto> I get it
<ogra> the server needs openssh-server installed
<ogra> which is a dependency of ltsp-server-standalone
<humbolto> isn't running ssh on the thin client a heavy task for an 166 mhz pentium mmx (clients I am using)?
<ogra> well, its taking a little bit more cpu power than xdmcp ... but thats not much ... 166 should work
<ogra> in feisty ssh will get the opportunity to switch all encryption off ... so that will be the same as xdmcp but at least with the key handshake of ssh
<ogra> (indeed we dont recommend that, but for really low level clients that will be of some help)
<humbolto> so 166 mmx should be fine
<humbolto> unless people want to watch video?
<ogra> i tested with 200 and it was fine, so i would expect 166 to work as well
<ogra> right, video is a killer ...
<ogra> but mainly for your network
<humbolto> it is just 3 clients in my env
<humbolto> but they want video
<humbolto> or at least if they get it, they will love me
<humbolto> so should I turn off the ssh thing and turn on xdmcp instead?
<humbolto> how can I do that?
<ogra> if you do that you will loose support for usb drives etc
<humbolto> ltspfs depends on sdm?
<ogra> but you can do it by adding SCREEN_07=startx to an lts.conf file in the client environment
<ogra> nope, it doesnt
<ogra> ltspfs depends on fuse
<humbolto> but ltspfs used to work with xdmcp also in ltsp 4.2
<ogra> right, but through a different communication channel
<ogra> newer versions of ltspfs use an ssh tunnel for that
<humbolto> can't I alter this channel?
<humbolto> was ssh used in dapper also?
<ogra> sbalneav was considering to implement support for xdmcp again but the ssh switch made him reconsider i think
<ogra> ssh was used since ubuntu ltsp exists
<humbolto> ssh switch?
<ogra> ltspfs wasnt used before edgy
<ogra> <ogra> in feisty ssh will get the opportunity to switch all encryption off ... so that will be the same as xdmcp but at least with the key handshake of ssh
<humbolto> I know, but in ltsp 4.2 it was available
<humbolto> I certainly could do that by hand in edgy either. what file do I need to tweak?
<ogra> yes, with lbus
<ogra> all of them
<ogra> the way ltspfs is implemented in ltsp5 is very deeply integrated into ssh and udev ... you would need to hack nearly every script from the ltspfs package
<humbolto> anyhow, still the best choice. so they have to wait for video until feisty is out.
<ogra> no
<humbolto> ?
<ogra> you could for example run an ssh server on the client
<ogra> and install a video player locally
<humbolto> ?
<ogra> mount the users homedir via nfs and set up ldap ...
<humbolto> what do I need the ssh server for?
<humbolto> ah, to start the player
<ogra> then you can add desktop launchers that do: ssh $USER@<thin-client-ip> totem /home/$USER/video.ogg
<ogra> the server needs to be set up for passwordless login and every user needs a ssh key
<humbolto> how to get a firefox video plugin to work?
<ogra> and indeed that wont work on low level clients
<ogra> they need the power to run a videoplayer
<humbolto> certainly not, just came to my attention too
<ogra> enough ram at least
<humbolto> I'll tell them, it will work in march, was it march? when will feisty be released?
<LaserJock> April
<ogra> april
<ogra> but i cant guarantee it will be in feisty
<humbolto> so there is not just one ssh connection used to tunnel all traffic, but several. one for x, one for ltspfs, ...
<ogra> time is to short, some specs will be dropped
<ogra> nope
<ogra> its always the same ssh conn
<humbolto> so why is it not possible to just make this one ssh connection run without encryption?
<ogra> you need the username ...
<humbolto> so?
<ogra> and the user needs to connect from the client ... xdmcp does the login on the servers gdm
<ogra> you dont have the user data available on the client ...
<ogra> you dont have a way to tell the client when to connect
<humbolto> I am refering to just turning off ecryption
<ogra> oh, right
<ogra> its not possible yet because thats an abuse of ssh in the view of upstream
<humbolto> but if it is just one connection I could add the param?
<humbolto> ah, turning off enc all together is not in ssh yet?
<ogra> you will have to tweak the server config ....
<ogra> right
<ogra> the patch exists since some time
<humbolto> but I could use blowfish at least?
<humbolto> that should be the fastest enc, right?
<ogra> but turning off encryption in a secure shell is somewhat silly in upstreams view
<ogra> thats what we use
<humbolto> well, they are not completely wrong with that. but it can make sense still.
<ogra> blowfish-cbc,aes128-cbc,3des-cbc
<ogra> in that order
<humbolto> fastest -> slowest
<ogra> right
<humbolto> what is the default and where would I have to add the param?
<ogra> the default is the first one the server accepts
<ogra> which is blowfish in our case
<ogra> f the feature is in ssh you will be able to add "none" to the above list
<ogra> and if the server has switched encryption off it will connect without encryption
<ogra> anyway, i need to go now ... bbl
<humbolto> thanks for all the info!
<humbolto> Have the best of all days or nights, depends on where you are located!
<humbolto> And again, you guys are great!
<peterlyberth> Hi What kind of hardware would you recommend for the server, in a five client setup?
<LaserJock> well, you should have about 150MB / client
<LaserJock> plust a bit for the base system
<LaserJock> 2 NICs seems helpful
<LaserJock> and at least 500MHz processor I should think
<LaserJock> but I'm not really an expert
<peterlyberth> Would a Intel p4 3 Ghz, 2gig ram and two 80 gig disks in a raid config, be in the rightdirction?
<LaserJock> certainly for 5 clients
<LaserJock> the hard drives are a tad small if you want to store a lot of stuff
<peterlyberth> i dont think they need more. Its a experiment setup for a daycare center, ive never done it before
<LaserJock> ah
<peterlyberth> But if they save some money on license then im happy
<peterlyberth> More stuff for the kids then
<peterlyberth> They got a couple of old computers, so i thought edubuntu would be perfect
<peterlyberth> in a thin client setup
<LaserJock> yeah, sounds cool
#edubuntu 2007-01-20
<Dante123> what are minimum requirements in terms of CPU, RAM, and HD space to run edubuntu well.....
<LaserJock> Dante123: for an LTSP setup?
<Dante123> what does ltsp stand for.....exactly......
<LaserJock> Linux Terminal Server Project
<Dante123> yes, i want to do that kind of install.....
<LaserJock> how many clients will be connected to the server?
<Dante123> likely 5 or so computers
<LaserJock> well, probably at least 500MHz CPU, 1GB RAM, HD would be whatever you think people would use
<Dante123> what kind of cpu.....pentium 3 okay....??
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> I mean, it kinda depends on what you'll be running
<LaserJock> and how well you want it to run
<LaserJock> oh wait, maybe it's 1 GHz that you need
<LaserJock> let me go see if I can find the official minimum requirements
<LaserJock> Dante123: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/ltsp-hw.html
<LaserJock> Dante123: I think maybe I told you a lie about 500MHz
<Dante123> so what is the truth??
<LaserJock> well, it says 2GHz is good for 20 people
<LaserJock> I think probably 1GHz might be ok for 5 but it would really depend on what they are running
<LaserJock> thinks that are graphics intensive could be problems
<LaserJock> *things
<LaserJock> sorry about that, I've never actually run an LTSP server.
<Dante123> hi....what are the minimum requirements for edubuntu or xubuntu as a desktop install???
<Dante123> I have a pentium II....192 megs ram........3g partition......can it run either one decently....for browsing web etc.???
<LaserJock> yeah, they will probably run
<LaserJock> how fast is the pentium II?
<Dante123> 350 mhz
<LaserJock> I think I would recommend Xubuntu for that one
<Dante123> it will run puppy linux fine.....but my kids like ubuntu....so I am hoping xubuntu will run okay on it
<LaserJock> the hard drive is pretty small, but it should work
<Dante123> I see minimum requirements.......and they mention mainly ram....but not much on CPU and speed....
<LaserJock> yeah, CPU is much harder to put a limit on
<LaserJock> I would use the Alternate CD for installation
<LaserJock> that requires less RAM and is faster for the slower machines
<Dante123> okay....will give that a try.......will xubuntu support games like netpanzer......that work on ubuntu right off the bat???
<LaserJock> well, it's possible to run everything that Ubuntu runs
<LaserJock> but you might run into hard drive limits and CPU limits for games
<Dante123> if i have 192 ram.....i should be okay for netpanzer.....you still think I should download the alternate install.....is that mainly to save on install time???
<LaserJock> well, it could
<LaserJock> for the Desktop installer you have to boot up to a running system and then install
<LaserJock> with the Alternate installer you can start installing right away
<LaserJock> and some people with 192 RAM have experience problems with the Desktop installer
<tekteen> Can someone help me with software modems on a toshiba laptop?
<hmd64> hi
<hmd64> any edubuntu based on XFCE for older computer?
<peterlyberth> Hi ive made a test install of Edubuntu and a thin client, in vmware. Edubuntu boots fine, but the thin client stops at the edubuntu splash screen
<peterlyberth> Got any idea why?
<peterlyberth> I think i read somewhere that one person had some luck when he disabled the splash screen. But how is it i do that?
<peterlyberth> Anyone?
<peterlyberth> Do you need any info to help?(The conf file)
<peterlyberth> hmm guess not
<hmd64> hi
<jsgotangco> yo!
<hmd64>  I'm plane to make a mixture of edubuntu and xubuntu someting like tuxlab distro
<hmd64> edubuntu is great but don't work nicely on older hardware
<jsgotangco> really? is it because of the gnome desktop
<hmd64> gonme is too heavy on network LTSP server
<jsgotangco> right
<hmd64> and also we need some simplification of the GUI for children
<hmd64> IMHO edubuntu team has just made ubuntu+kdeedu+LTSP that's all
<hmd64> that's not enough
<jsgotangco> hmd64: we're completely aware of that
<jsgotangco> we just don't have enough developers to make some radical changes, as well sa proper planning
<hmd64> I know
<jsgotangco> amd64 testing for instance, we only get something like 2 test volunteers
<hmd64> I prefer to make changes inside edubuntu distro
<hmd64> so it can reach a lot of people and to be shiped freely
<hmd64> tuxlab has made a nice job but their distro is localised only for southafrica
<hmd64> I'll join the edubuntu dev team to help
<tuhl> anybody from Germany here?
<humboldt>  is evms ready for production systems in 2.6 kernel?
<hmd64> anyone?
#edubuntu 2007-01-21
<peterlyberth> Ive installed edubuntu in wmvar, along with a thin client. The client get the kernel, shows the splash. Then nothing.
<peterlyberth> How do i diable the splahs
<peterlyberth> splash:-)
<peterlyberth> Ive googled and googled, but i just cant find any solution
<LaserJock> hmm, I really don't know how to do that on the client
<peterlyberth> No thats my problem too. Theres no grub to edit:-)
<peterlyberth> Ive solved the problem with the thin client booting in vmware!
<peterlyberth> I had to change one af the nics in the server and the nic in the client, to a virtual network! My router gave the client wrong addresses
<peterlyberth> Its booting like a charm now.
<peterlyberth> Ive got a slight problem though. By default the clients dont have danish kayboard layout
<peterlyberth> The wierd thing is, that i changed the lts.conf file so that it should use DK layout. I have the login from the client and change it there.
<peterlyberth> Any idea why?
<peterlyberth> Damn im flooding sry
<peterlyberth> any idea?
<mathesis> hi
<mathesis> speak spanish?
<gnomefreak> mathesis: #edubuntu-es? or #ubuntu-es
<n2diy> ! es
<ubotu> Para Espaol por favor usen #ubuntu-es, #kubuntu-es o #edubuntu-es, all obtendrn mas ayuda.
<humbolto> how can I restrict all users from putting my xserver to sleep or hibernate it?!
<humbolto> jguifhre
<humbolto> gga
<humbolto> ah, it comes through
<humbolto> I have a big big problem!
<humbolto> hibernate and suspend show up in the gnome logout window even on remote sessions!!!!
<humbolto> this has to disappear somehow. how can I achieve that?
<humbolto> I don't want my students to turn off the server!
#edubuntu 2008-01-14
<joelfranco> hi all. plz.. someone knows how to solve the "ipconfig: eth0: SIOCGIFINDEX: No such device" ltsp5 problem?
<joelfranco> hi edubuntu guys.. no one have a direction to solve my problem, plz?
<kgoetz> joelfranco: give us more details about the problem
<a[2121]e> good morning
<LaserJock> morning
<joelfranco> kgoetz, the problem is that in the ltsp boot, after the kernel loads and he start to run the initramfs image, it do not get to get the IP from the server
<joelfranco> the tool that it calls is "ipconfig", a strange utility in *nix :)
<joelfranco> a have a one hundred machines running fine in my network now,
<joelfranco> but 10% fail with that error
<joelfranco> it appears not to be a kernel module issue, bcoz it happens in mininum of 2 modules
<kgoetz> are they different to the other machiens?
<joelfranco> yes, but i have booted a rescuecd in that machines
<joelfranco> and they get IP fine
<kgoetz> what version of ubuntu are you trying to load, and what is the rescue cd?
<joelfranco> sorry, but i'm not using a ubuntu version but debian
<kgoetz> for the clients or cd?
<joelfranco> i have come here bcoz i have seen that you are masters  in ltsp :)
<kgoetz> maybe so, but its offtopic for here. try #debian
<joelfranco> the rescuecd that helpme test the machine is rescuecd
 * kgoetz is getting confused
<joelfranco> kgoetz, i think that both dists are very similar in ltsp environment
<kgoetz> joelfranco: what is the server, what is in the chroot, what is the rescue cd?
<joelfranco> the ltsp server is debian, and the chroot too, but the problem is in the initramfs generated
<kgoetz> then its a question for #debian
<joelfranco> the rescue cd i have issued just to prove myself that the problem is not in the linux kernel :)
<joelfranco> kgoetz, ok.. i understand.. but you knows the ipconfig utility?
<kgoetz> it could well be the kernel - one shipped in debian vs one in ubuntu
<kgoetz> ipconfig is a windows thing. ifconfig on the other hand...
<joelfranco> kgoetz, i know ipconfig in windows, but in the initramfs image there is a ipconfig..
<joelfranco> i swear! :)
<joelfranco> and the problem appears to be with it
 * kgoetz points to #debian
<joelfranco> kgoetz, ok. thank you a lot anyway :)
<kgoetz> joelfranco: good luck :)
<RichEd> ogra: ping ?
<bddebian> Heya
<cliebow_>  type=1503 operation="inode_permission" requested_mask="a" denied_mask="a" name="/dev/tty" pid=8026 profile="/usr/sbin/cupsd"
<cliebow_>  type=1503 operation="inode_permission" requested_mask="a" denied_mask="a" name="/dev/tty" pid=8026 profile="/usr/sbin/cupsd"?
<johnny> that's a registered bug
<cliebow_> mean anything to anyone?
<johnny> i forgot how i found out about it
<johnny> nor do i know why it hasn't been fixed
<cliebow_> ahhh..cliebow googles again
<johnny> but i had to solve that after upgrading to gutsy
<cliebow_> im getting some wierd stuff on this new install..and little oin the logs to go by..
<johnny> that's apparmor stuff btw
<cliebow_> Local authentication certificate not found...this business was plaguing me yesterday...as in input/output error using cat..tac...shutdown..reboot
<johnny> yes.. got that one too
<johnny> i think i just removed all the auth stuff altogether
<johnny> the error made me sick
<johnny> impossible to find the answer
<johnny> needed to do more deeper debugging than i had time for
<cliebow_> i see...the other six installs i did not notice it..
<cliebow_> cups just updated..maybe...
<cliebow_> local authentication certficate prob appeared first in moodle..tracking that down showed me the other problems..
<LaserJock> RichEd: ping?
#edubuntu 2008-01-15
<kgoetz> folks, does anythin happen to the edubuntu docs? i havent seen any updates to http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/edubuntu-hardy/
<kgoetz> well, not recently anyway
<ari_stress> hello all :D
<ari_stress> wazzup
<sigma_1234> can i download the edubuntu cookbook anywhere?
<sigma_1234> is it in edubuntu?
<Armageddon> ok, I installed a whole bunch of nonsense now my computer won't let me get to the desktop
<Armageddon> if I make a data DVD with ubuntu install will it act as a reformat dvd?
<hend> I'm trying to increase disk space available to ubuntu from the live CD -> Gparted
<hend> can any one help
<bddebian> Heya
#edubuntu 2008-01-16
<ari_stress> morning all :D
<sahil> where can i find a list of the packages edubuntu has selected for its educational packages/games list?
<johnny_> good question, but you're going to prolly have to wait til USA/Europe daytime to get an answer
<johnny_> if it's not on the edubuntu site
<RichEd> === edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting = 2 mins time ===
<cliebow__> johnny: you said you were having trouble with megaraid crapping out..so not even reboot wiil work without input/output errors?
<pips1> combining UDS and UES makes sense somehow, in as such that UDS has a nice "buzz" and that teachers, edu stakeholders, etc have a chance to meet the "geeks" that actually build the software?
<pips1> but the UES should definitely have it's own programme
<ogra> yes, especially now that edu needs have to be fulfilled by the distro team and not the edubuntu team alone
<ogra> so its essential to have the right specs in place for the distro
<ogra> triggered by the edu users
<ogra> which means for me that two days in advance would make most sense
<ogra> anyway, coffeee
<pips1> also, I thought UDS in Seville was fantastic, since we visited the guadalinex school and management center... lots of non-edu ubunteros came along for that visit...
<RichEd> pips1 & ogra: sabdfl said that he had heard feedback from some teaching people that edubuntu etc. is sometimes driven too much by tech ideas, and not in consultation with teachers feedback & requirements
<pips1> sure
<RichEd> so it may make sense (my general thinking) to have an edu summit which is more hadns on testing & workshop & feedback based
<RichEd> rather than us pitching success stories, or new tech features
<RichEd> trying to create a pool of people who will review our releases from their usage perspective, and not an install and maintain point of view
<RichEd> i am still trying to think this through
<pips1> I think that's a problem with most software, but with edu it's particularly striking
<pips1> RichEd: I like what you propose very much!
<pips1> The success story pitching should be done at the equivalent of 'ubuntu live' con...
<RichEd> so I was thinking that we could "manage a summit: how to get maximum access to computing resources for your budget"
<pips1> UES should be workshops indeed
<RichEd> (which is of interest to government funders etc.)
<RichEd> and open source is obviously the first step in cost saving
<RichEd> and base the hands on workshops on edubuntu ]
<RichEd> ... then get feedback from the participants on their experience, and also wow the windows users with the quality and scope of edubuntu apps & tols
<RichEd> If the summit is pitched as a maximal gearing of limited IT budget ... it may be easier for attendees to justify sponsorship by their own organisations
<RichEd> rather than attending a "product" summit
<pips1> hmm, interesting
<pips1> this needs more thinking / discussing... but I really need to attend work now :-/
<RichEd> me too :)
<RichEd> keep the basic idea in mind ... we can chat again
<pips1> anyway, I'll try to keep the tentative dates for UDS free in my schedule, just in case
<pips1> I'll be doing the "technology tour" in silicon valley again, mid may, I hope that won't collide...
<pips1> highvoltage: ping
<pips1> highvoltage: I add two bug reports for the new theme: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bugs so we don't forget...
<pips1> RichEd: If you mail me a news announcement about educonlinux, I'd be happy to post it on the edubuntu.org site
<pips1> ok, got to go... cu!
<bddebian> Heya
<jsgotangco> heh sun acquired mysql
<joe___> How can I tell my network name? I am trying to add a new workstation to a network
<ludoRA> *$
<joe___> Is there a doc for not-so-thin-clients?
<cliebow__> ??
<joe___> cliebow__ ---> Clients that have disks and software of their own but share permissions and have a network /home
<cliebow__> joe___, so perhaps an ldapserver with nfs mounted homedir?
<joe___> yes.
<joe___> perhaps.
<joe___> ldapserver.... hmm.....
<joe___> is there an auto-config for this in edubuntu or is this customization?
<cliebow__> there is an smbldap-installer moquist wrote..
<joe___> maybe this is already set up here. what would be a quick way to find out?
<joe___> i haven't been able to figure out the user situation of this network.
<joe___> maybe that's it
<cliebow__> you con look in /etc/pam.d..at the common* scripts..and see if ldap is enabled
<joe___> I don't see anything about it.
<cliebow__> some use nis..that is ancient these days
<joe___> I want the simplest and most functional =)
<joe___> is ldap really the best way to share users on a network?
<cliebow__> i am no expert..if you are in a domain with windows users i feel it is the way to go
<juliux> ogra, ping
<laga> ogra, ping
<juliux> hehe;) double ping
<laga> let's unite our powers to summon him
<juliux> ok
<juliux> hm i also need riched
<juliux> but he is allready offline
<laga> you're on your own with him ;)
<juliux> laga, where are you living in germany?
<laga> saarland
<juliux> that is france allready,)
<juliux> ;)
<laga> -.-
<laga> still got a .de host :P
<juliux> hehe
<juliux> highvoltage, ping?
<LaserJock> late meeting today?
<LaserJock> or did I miss yet another one
<stgraber> LaserJock: it was an early one
<LaserJock> darn
<juliux> RichEd, ping
<juliux> hi LaserJock
<juliux> what do you think about an edubuntu coffee mug?
<highvoltage> juliux: pong
<juliux> hi highvoltage
<juliux> highvoltage, see question above;)
<highvoltage> yay, still here, usually we miss each other :)
<highvoltage> juliux: how could anyone say no to any kind of a *buntu mug!
<juliux> highvoltage, you can;)
<juliux> we(ubuntu-de) are thinking to produce some edubuntu mugs
<highvoltage> oh, cool!
<juliux> some == 300;)
<highvoltage> that's a lot. will you be selling them?
 * highvoltage would buy one
<juliux> not selling, you get them at a gift for a donation;
<highvoltage> (even 3, one for richard and jane too)
<highvoltage> cool
<juliux> target price is 5-6â¬
<LaserJock> that'd be nice
<juliux> shipping not included;)
<highvoltage> juliux: when does production start!
<juliux> if we will make them in the next two weeks
<juliux> befor that i will check if we can "sell" 300 mugs;)
<highvoltage> kewl
<juliux> we will also make ubuntu coffee mugs
<highvoltage> juliux: you can sign me up for them too!
<juliux> cool
<juliux> highvoltage, i will setup a special email address for mugs the next days
<highvoltage> juliux: great, keep everyone up to date about it!
<juliux> highvoltage, i will write something on edubuntu-users;)
<highvoltage> juliux: yes, spread the word :)
<juliux> hehe
<juliux> at first i want check it with ogra and Riddell
<juliux> and riched
<highvoltage> I'm going to get some sleep now, goodnight juliux!
<juliux> gn8 highvoltage
<secretlondon> Hi
<kgoetz> hi
<secretlondon> When is the deadline for hardy edubuntu? The newest version of tuxpaint hasn't been synced as the debian dev hasn't packaged yet
<secretlondon> we'd obviously love it to get into hardy as it's lts
<kgoetz> i doubt anything thats yet unpackaged would make it into an LTS
<secretlondon> well 0.9.17 is in gutsy, it just needs updating
<secretlondon> i've made a ppa of the stamps but i'm aware we're in main..
<crimsun> secretlondon: have you corresponded with the Debian maintainer(s)?
<secretlondon> crimsun: we've tried to talk to him. he subscribes to our -dev mailing list but he's not responding
<secretlondon> our lead dev has asked me to investigate
<crimsun> secretlondon: what period has elapsed since you asked him?
<crimsun> (sorry, busy across a few channels here)
<secretlondon> crimsun: before xmas
<secretlondon> there has been a bug since nov too
<crimsun> secretlondon: ok, so across the holiday period, which I think is normal
<secretlondon> is it worth me trying to package it, or should we chase him?
<crimsun> ok, so we're talking about 0.9.18?
<secretlondon> 0.9.18+CVS as there is a bug fix in CVS
<secretlondon> we've released a tarball of 0.9.18CVS
<crimsun> hmm, is there any way it could be repackaged as 0.9.18.1 or 0.9.18a or the like?
<crimsun> otherwise we'd have to resort to date buffoonery in the version string
<secretlondon> Bug #173293 is a bug asking for the new version
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 173293 in tuxpaint "Tuxpaint 0.9.18 with new useful features was released at November - please update packages" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/173293
<secretlondon> crimsun: no problem. I'll ask bill to rename the tarball
#edubuntu 2008-01-17
<lns> Just wondering, are questions portable in this chan for ubuntu/ltsp ? Or should it be strictly edubuntu installs only (since they are so similar post-install)?
<kgoetz> you could probably ask here
<johnny> but #ltsp itself would be good too
<johnny> you'd prolly get more assistance there
<johnny> especially since you can rely on debian folks assistance too in many cases
<kgoetz> (note, thats not an invite to ask #debian)
<LaserJock> heh
<johnny> definitely not
<johnny> oh.. lns you've been there ..
<johnny> almost all the folks who answer ltsp questions who hang out in here, are also there
<johnny> but not the opposite
<kgoetz> also actually asking the question helps ;)
<juliux> good mornin
<juliux> g
<juliux> hi RichEd
<RichEd> hi juliux
<juliux> RichEd, what do you think about edubuntu coffee mugs?
<RichEd> juliux: nice idea :) they hang around on people's work desk ... so it is a constant advert / reminder
<juliux> RichEd, ubuntu-de is thinking about the idea
<juliux> RichEd, is it ok for you if we produce the mugs?
<RichEd> i am sure it is fine ... perhaps send a mail to the trademark address asking permission, but of course letting them know you are a loco ...
<RichEd> let me get the mail address for you
<RichEd> trademarks@ubuntu.com
<juliux> normaly we don't need that because we have a contract about the logo usage
<juliux> but i will write them an e-mail
<RichEd> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<LaserJock> morning RichEd
<RichEd> hi LaserJock
<juliux> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> sorry I missed the meeting, thought it was the late one
<RichEd> seemed there was some confusion around the meeting slot yesterday
<RichEd> i also thought it was the late one until i checked the fridge
<RichEd> we had the early one the week before
<RichEd> :/
<LaserJock> I was gonna say a little bit about some artwork stuff
<LaserJock> I was talking with _MMA_ (Ubuntu Studio lead) about what they were doing with their art packages
<LaserJock> and some of the changes they're working on for Ubuntu as well
<LaserJock> and he said he could have a look at the Edubuntu artwork packaging
<LaserJock> we created https://.launchpad.net/edubuntu-look as a project which the edubuntu-artwork LP team is a driver
<LaserJock> so then the packaging/artwork could all be done in a bzr branch
<RichEd> ogra was hoping that someone from the art team would join the meeting yesterday after the mail thread discussion ... but no-one did
<LaserJock> yes, well, I'm not sure they do IRC as much
<RichEd> i mailed Jill last night asking her to do a new wallpaper ... she was keen when last we spoke
<LaserJock> there were a few art people who joined ~edubuntu-art
<LaserJock> and a wallpaper submission
<LaserJock> although I think we are usually pretty good for wallpapers
<RichEd> did you like the default for 7.10 ?
<LaserJock> it was ok, I think we could have refined it some more
<LaserJock> I think it'd be nice to sort of work more on consistency throughout
<LaserJock> gdm splash, boot splash, etc. and the website
<LaserJock> but _MMA_ has some experience on the packaging/technical end which is nice
<LaserJock> I don't think he can commit to too much, but I think he'd be willing to help a team
<LaserJock> there's also an icon theme we might consider using based on Gartoon called GNUtoon
<LaserJock> it's basically Gartoon+
<LaserJock> more icons
<highvoltage> ogra: are you around?
<laga> ogra: ping
<ogra> highvoltage, now i am, sorry, was in the basement
<highvoltage> ogra: not a problem!
<highvoltage> ogra: have you ever used, or do you know much about multicasting?
<ogra> we used it in the cable company where i worked before for iptv but i didnt have direct contact with that
<ogra> do you have a patch for me ?
<ogra> :)
<highvoltage> heh, I wish!
<ogra> to try it
<highvoltage> the guys at work say that some provisoning systems use multicast to send the data to all the clients
<ogra> right
<highvoltage> and when I suggested ubiquity over ltsp a while back, they wanted me to look uno multicasting for that
<highvoltage> I wasn't sure if it's possible, just looked at the ticket again today
<ogra> ubiquity over ltsp ?
<ogra> you mean run the live image netbooted ?
<highvoltage> well, originally I was going to run a full "fat" nfs environment that runs ubiquity, this was before LTSP used squashfs, etc
<highvoltage> but yes, we'll probably do live image netbooted now
<ogra> there is a setup somewhere on the wiki
<highvoltage> yes, I think it's moquist's setup
<ogra> robert collins built that for a conference once
<ogra> for an ubuntu booth
<highvoltage> do you think it's technically possible for a setup like that to use multicast?
<ogra> hmm, no idea
<highvoltage> the thing is just, the clients will probably want the data at different times
<stgraber> I'm installing that at school too (to replace tons of Ubuntu CDs :))
<highvoltage> then again, if they don't get the data, they will probably just wait for it
<highvoltage> for booting up an entire, big lab, it might be a good thing though.
<stgraber> highvoltage: multicast is fine for disk images where you wait for all the clients to be ready then send the data in your case I don't really see where you can use multicast ...
 * highvoltage will have to ask for more information from the multicast-loudmouths
<highvoltage> stgraber: that's what I thought too, except for maybe booting lots of clients
<highvoltage> I suppose it's possible to multicast just *some* stuff?
<stgraber> hmm, hardware being different, ... the only thing you can get by multicast would be the initrd, on-demmand access won't work (at least that's how I understand the multicast thing)
<highvoltage> oh, but it would probably be difficult over the same protocol (I was thinking of when an entire class opens up openoffice)
<stgraber> it's not like if all your clients were retrieving the exact same data
<highvoltage> yeah
<stgraber> multicast is perfect for video stream (I use it with VLC on some clients, running a sort of local app waiting for the stream sent by the teacher), not sure how you can use it for file transfer
<stgraber> highvoltage: might work if you have an initrd downloading a base image, uncompressing it in RAM, then booting it
<stgraber> highvoltage: but that would eat a lot of RAM (then it won't require any network access)
<highvoltage> stgraber: for sure.
<RichEd> stgraber: how is the italc panelbeating gping ?
<RichEd> any chance of it being workable for 8.04 ?
<stgraber> RichEd: demo mode crashes, waiting from an upstream patch (I can't fix it myself)
<stgraber> RichEd: everything else works just fine
<RichEd> stgraber: thanks :)
<boiblu> im having problems trying to get firefox to play youtube
<boiblu> anyone know why?
<lns> I apologize in advance to everyone who is also in #ltsp (for duping a conversation)...  FYI Everyone: If you want to help fix the OpenOffice pixmap LTSP crash issue, register and comment on the following issue in the OOo issue: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=85321
<ubotu> OpenOffice.org bug 85321 in framework "OOo caches large pixmaps to X server, crashing the X server." [Defect,Unconfirmed: ]
<lns> !ubotu
<ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<lns> wow....saucy ;)
<mcfloppy_> moin
#edubuntu 2008-01-18
<ari_stress> morning all :D
<akn> hi, is anybody on who can give me current info on lts.conf?
<ab0oo> any NFS fat client gurus around?  I have a question about ssh host keys with a nfsroot and multiple clients.
<laga> just ask
<ab0oo> ok, if I have a bunch of clients that all mount the same nfsroot, and they all run SSH, then they all get the same SSH host key, which is non-optimal.
<ab0oo> is there a way (i.e. a config option to sshd) to get each host to use it's own key?
<laga> good question :) i'll be facing the same issue soon..
<ab0oo> I'm not sure #edubuntu is the right channel, but the project seems to have more nfsroot expertise than I can find anywhere else.
<laga> ab0oo: there's a different problem, too: how do you make the clients keep their host keys if they reboot?
<ab0oo> then, unless you have a bunch of identical hardware, you'll also face the xorg.conf problem, too. :)
<ab0oo> well, X server has a slick little secret:  it will read xorg.conf.<hostname> for x configuration, so you can have per-host xorg.conf
<laga> ab0oo: no, that'll be OK. ubuntu has lots of autoconfiguration magic and each client will have his own writeable nfs share which is merged with the root share using unionfs :)
<laga> oh, nifty.
<ab0oo> which is GREAT, unless you use nvidia's proprietary driver, which won't load the nvidia kernel module unless it finds nvidia in the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file.
<laga> ab0oo: that's an ubuntu-specific hack
<ab0oo> Ahh, I'm not smart enough to use unionfs, which I probably ought to figure out
<laga> you can "fix" that by editing a file in /etc/modprobe.d/ or something like that
<laga> ab0oo: i'm not smart enough either.. give me a few more hours
<laga> unionfs on nfs didn't work well here. and aufs (another unionfS) requires a kernel patch. it also won't compile with the hardy kernel. i have had lots of fun lately with that..
<ab0oo> what I think I really want is some kind of variable substitution in NFS or "mount", so I can have a single config section that mounts "nfsserver:/export/config-<hostname>" where hostname is dynamically filled in by each host
<laga> we're gonna use the MAC address instead of the hostname
<laga> (i'm currently working on a as-configless-as-possible approach for diskless clients for mythbuntu, a  HTPC distribution)
<ab0oo> I used mythbuntu for a while, then just bought a Buffalo LinkTheater instead.  quieter, cheaper, fits in with the rest of the A/V gear better.
<laga> depends on what you need i suppose :)
<ab0oo> with autofs, there appears to be a way to do variable substitution to include HOSTNAME, OS, VERSION, etc.
<laga> sounds nice
 * laga needs to find out how ltsp/edubuntu uses sshfs
<LaserJock> ogra: is the seed structure going to change soonish? Will ship-addon go to ship?
<o00w> does anyone program with gcc?
<LaserJock> depends on the question ;-)
<o00w> well I see gcc listed in /usr/bin but it does nothing
<o00w> I can launch it from terminal but it expects me to specify the file that I wish to open with gcc
<LaserJock> well, gcc is the compiler
<LaserJock> you need to write a C program first and then compile it with gcc
<o00w> so what would be the gui I would use to write c code?>
<LaserJock> well, any text editor would do
<o00w> hmmm I was hoping to have something error check on the fly
<LaserJock> but if your interested in GUI tools I think anjuta is popular
<ab0oo> eclipse with the C extensions does something like that
<ab0oo> also has all the syntax highlighting, etc.
<LaserJock> yeah, eclipse would be the other one you might try. It's a Java app but has lots of extensions for other languages
<o00w> sorry to be such a noob on this but I have seen windows compilers that let u debug and execute the code from within the application u are writing it in
<o00w> or maybe it isn't called a compiler
<o00w> like quincy
<ab0oo> you're not going to find Visual Studio for Linux.  it's just not how Real Programmers program
<o00w> well I wasn't looking to be a "Real Programmer" yet.  but is there something that like changes the text color when an int is called and things like that
<LaserJock> o00w: there might be some tools like that in anjuta/eclipse
<LaserJock> but to be honest, I just use a regular text editor
<LaserJock> I don't program much but learning all the little tools takes more time then reading a tutorial/reference and just doing it, for me anyway
<o00w> yeah... I haven't even written "hello world" yet so I just thought it would be less frustrating if I could see errors on the fly
<o00w> thank you for the input though
<LaserJock> well, anjuta/eclipse would at least give you syntax highlighting
<LaserJock> and they might have some debugging stuff
<LaserJock> you can just try them and see, they're in the repos
<Petaris> Hi all
<highvoltage> hey Petaris!
<Petaris> Hi highvoltage
<Petaris> I am having issues when I set X (on the client) to use the amd driver (for the geode2 chipset)
<Petaris> basically all ttys come up blank and you can't kill X
<Petaris> it does listen to ctrl+alt+del though
<Petaris> any other driver dies too
<Petaris> *unless I set screen_02=shell
<Petaris> then X doesn't launch at all and I can work on the client
<Petaris> seems that this issue is referenced here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-amd/+bug/140051
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 140051 in xserver-xorg-video-amd "amd driver fails to autoconfigure" [High,Triaged]
<Petaris> highvoltage: How can I install a specific version of a package from apt?
<Petaris> or list multiple versions?
<Petaris> I want to install the new packages listed in that bug report to see if it fixes my issues
<Petaris> biab
<mgb_> anyone there that could help with a vmplayer error i'm getting running client over ltsp?
<johnny> depends
<johnny> if it's really related to vmware, then no
<johnny> if it's related to ltsp then perhaps
<mgb_> ok, i'll try to explain the setup
<mgb_> up-to-date edubuntu with two thin clients connected
<mgb_> both thin client can execute vmplayer with a range of vm images, however when one client has the windows 2k clone open, the other starts the vm (a unique clone of the w2k vm) and gets an error like XCreateImageFailed signal 11
<johnny> what dos w2k have to do with ltsp?
<johnny> you mean vmware inside ltsp , not using
<johnny> i used vmware/virtualbox to test thinclients :)
<johnny> not to run windows :)
<johnny> try with say virtualbox?
<mgb_> the thin client is using ltsp in order to access vmplayer
<mgb_> vmplayer then executes a w2k image - there are other images - w2k is just an example
<johnny> hmm...you're prolly gonna have to go deeper
<mgb_> does virtualbox have much in the way of cloning like vmware
<johnny> to figure it out
<johnny> i doubt it matches vmware completely
<johnny> i just prefer to use open software
<johnny> and virtualbox is good enough
<johnny> do you have a similiar problem with any other apps that might try to do something similiar?
<johnny> when it comes to spawning extra windows?
<mgb_> i haven't tried any other apps. the error comes when the vm window resizes to desktop when starting up
<johnny> hmm.. perhaps try to do the same with virtualbox, see if the problem is with vmware itself
<mgb_> there is a bug report here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rdesktop/+bug/104332
<johnny> just backup some of your images
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 104332 in rdesktop "rdesktop crashes when logging in to windows 2000 (or pressing cancel)" [High,Fix released]
<mgb_> is the latest edubuntu a gutsy release?
<johnny> yes
<mgb_> if so why is this bug invalid in gutsy?
<johnny> aha.. that bug looks like rdesktop itself had to be patched
<johnny> to work
<johnny> if so, that'd be similiar for vmware.. if they really were similiar
<mgb_> cool. thanks for the help. do you think there are any performance issues with thin clients running multiple vm images over a gig network?
<johnny> uhmm.. i don't have any experience with that
<johnny> so i won't speculate
<mgb_> in terms of the network not being able to cope with the remote display of an X session with multiple vms open
<johnny> mine is still 10/100
<johnny> some other folks here prolly run such setups tho
<johnny> i only have 4 clients on mine atm
<mgb_> that's for mentioning virtualbox, it seems easy to clone vm
<mgb_> i need a system that allows the use of thin clients in order to access multiple vm images. the vms at the moment are automatically cloned, in a hackish way due to the vmware API not supporting proper cloning yet, in order to provide the users of the thin client with non-persistant vm images where changes only persist if rebooted - if the vm is shutdown the changes are lost. do you think this is achievable with virtualbox?
<johnny> who knows
<johnny> the point is to test if you get the same issue with
<johnny> if you don't, then the issue is with vmware, and you'd have to complain to them
<lns> it's probably not of much use to people right now, but I thought I'd share a wiki I started on wikidot.com - the information I'm gathering and putting on it regards UbuntuLTSP/Edubuntu specifically, and has a lot of useful URLs regarding bugtracking, forums/websites, etc... I plan on expanding the site a LOT as times passes, so hopefully it will grow to be pretty extensive. For those of you that want to see it now, check out http://lns.wikidot.com - let me kno
<lns> w if you find it useful!
<LaserJock> lns: why not use the Ubuntu wiki?
<johnny> lns, did you attempt firefox 3 yet?
<lns> LaserJock, because the LNS wiki is for tracking issues/subjects directly relating to our own clients
<LaserJock> hmm, I see
<lns> johnny, no... i don't want to try FF3 until it is released as stable..there are too many people using it right now
<lns> LaserJock, there is still a lot of useful information (especially the reference url section) so feel free to duplicate it (or i can, but it's really hard for me to find the right places on the ubuntu wiki)
<LaserJock> lns: this all applies to 7.10?
<johnny> lns, well it's not like you couldn't just add an icon
<johnny> and use it along side
<lns> LaserJock, most of it, yes
<lns> johnny, i could, but there are many more issues i have to fix/deal with first before trying more beta software..i need to re-try the XRAMPERC solution because I think the list post I followed was wrong for my setup
<lns> that's one of the biggest reasons I started my own wiki - to track specific issues and be able to gather all information regarding it in one place
<LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFAQ is one place we house stuff
<LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuRecipes
<LaserJock> I think those are the primary wiki pages for Edubuntu help
<lns> oo, nice.. thanks LaserJock
<lns> I'll put that in my reference urls, already finding stuff in there that relates to issues we're having ;)
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> seems like we should have a release-specific wiki page for issues that only hit a particular release
<lns> LaserJock, yeah...i'm already finding it very hard to keep a solid hierarchy in my OWN wiki... heh
<LaserJock> yeah, wiki's can quickly become very messy
<LaserJock> hmm, I should see if I can get ltsp set up on my new laptop
<lns> I strongly considered implementing my own wiki pages in the ubuntu/edu wikis...but man....it's just so difficult, i need more control over my specific issues
<LaserJock> well, if you have clients or need to track your specific stuff it makes sense
<LaserJock> but where possible it'd be nice to share since we are always looking for more documentation
<lns> LaserJock, exactly
<lns> i wish there was some way to link actual page text cross-wiki style (not sure if that's the right wordage)
<lns> instead of just a link
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> I think that may be possible, but it wouldn't be feasible for Ubuntu's because I think it requires messing around with the wikis
<lns> ahh
<lns> well if it's ok i can always put a link to my specific wiki on the Edubuntu/UbuntuLTSP wiki for reference
<lns> dunno if that would just clutter things up more, but at least it'd be a link to more info
<LaserJock> hmm, I probably be for copying content over
<LaserJock> are you gonna license your wiki? I didn't check
<lns> LaserJock, license my wiki?
<LaserJock> yes, copying content only works if the licenses are compatible :-)
<lns> hmm, never thought about that ;)
<lns> i guess i could, i have no idea howto thou
<LaserJock> you can just add a license statement
<lns> like gpl? (sorry i'm a license newb)
<lns> can i copy the license statement from somewhere? ;)
<LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/License
<lns> nice
<lns> thx
<LaserJock> notice that at the bottom of the page (and every other page on help.ubuntu.com/community) there is a link "Legal" and a little badge that says CC By-SA
<LaserJock> the CC-By-SA is a common documentation license from Creative Commons
<LaserJock> GFDL is also used a fair amount, it's from FSF like GPL
<lns> LaserJock, ok cool - here we go: http://lns.wikidot.com/license
<lns> i just dunno if i need to reference the ubuntu wiki license page to be able to have copied that info...
<LaserJock> it looks nice
<lns> cool..just added a ref..we should be good to go ;)
<LaserJock> awesome
<lns> anyway my wiki really isn't much of anything yet.. i just want to help everyone else out like they've helped me out. i hope it will become much more of a good reference in the future as i have time to gather and place information in it.
<LaserJock> sure
#edubuntu 2008-01-19
<laga> ogra: ping!!
#edubuntu 2008-01-20
<ojwb> there's an incorrect (or at least confusing) link on http://www.edubuntu.org/Download for DVD download
<ojwb> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/current/ which is for daily hardy snapshots
<ojwb> rather than http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/7.10/release/
<ojwb> which has the 7.10 DVDs
<ojwb> if there's a better place to report this, let me know
<ojwb> the comment before says "Edubuntu 7.10 DVD's are available from the following links:"
<ogra> ojwb, theer is an edubuntu-website product on lauchpad, you can file it as a bug there
<ojwb> ogra: ah, obvious really - I'll report there
<ojwb> hmm, I've just installed from the 7.10 i386 DVD
<ojwb> I enabled the nvidia restricted driver
<ojwb> then fetched the updates
<ojwb> and it's saying they aren't authenticated
<ojwb> software sources shows the CD and archive keys are installed
<ojwb> is this a known issue?
<ogra> ojwb, dont use the edubuntu-server iso, use ubuntu-alternate, edubuntu will become an addon to that in hardy, theer is no development going on on the old edubuntu-server CD
<laga> hey ogra :)
<ogra> hey
 * ogra is in a rush atm, preparing for a flight
<laga> ogra: thanks for your suggestion to add mythbuntu-diskless to ltsp. couldn't have made my life any easier
<ogra> laga, thanks for the patch :)
<ojwb> um, this is for 7.10 though
<laga> ogra: have a nice flight then :)
<ogra> ojwb, oh
<ojwb> FWIW, I deleted a duplicate but disabled DVD source in "software sources", and it updated the package lists and seems to be fetching now
<ogra> laga, it would be nice to have the patch generate en_GB and set that as default to avoid all the perl errors you get with LANG=C
<laga> ogra: i've got another patch which will add NFS overlays (as opposed to the current tmpfs approach). it'll be configurable of course and not change the default behaviour. would that be accepted?
<ojwb> in about 4 minutes, I'll see
<laga> ogra: oh, that patch.
<ogra> laga, sure
<laga> ogra: why not use en_US? ;)
<laga> ogra: great.
<ogra> well, eb_GB is waht ubuntu defaults to if nothing is set
 * laga currently has some trouble testing patches because he keeps breaking stuff ;)
<ogra> so the chroot should behave similar
<laga> ogra: ah. i thought it as en_US. ok, will do
<ogra> hey, the rootdelay patch looks good, i'll merge that next week
<laga> ogra: cool.
<laga> ogra: i've just prepared the wake on lan patch.
<laga> just needs testing.
<ogra> oh, wow
 * ogra isnt sure he has WOL capable HW here though
<laga> i've also added nbdroot= and nbdswap= boot options so you can put kernel + initramfs on a pen drive for example
<laga> ogra: i can test it. it's like four lines and not enabled by default ;)
<ogra> nbdroot ? isnt that there already ?
<laga> ogra: i don't think you can just pass in nbdroot=ip:path
<laga> when you boot the kernel
<ogra> you do
<ogra> have a look at client/initramfs/scripts/ltsp_nbd
<laga> if you can do that, i must have missed something fundamental about boot option parsing
<ojwb> ogra: seems to be working now
<ogra>    if [ -n "${nbdroot}" ]; then
<ogra>                NBD_ROOT_SERVER=$( echo "${nbdroot}" | sed 's/:.*//')
<ogra>                NBD_ROOT_PORT=$( echo "${nbdroot}" | sed 's/.*://')
<laga> yes.
<laga> but where is ${nbdroot} set?
<ogra> that parsdes nbdroot
<ojwb> I guess it had only fetched some of the package files when it downloaded the nvidia driver
<ogra> laga, as kernel option :)
<ogra> if [ -n "${nbdroot}" ] checks if it exists as kernel option
<laga> ogra: if you take a look at /usr/share/initramfs/init you can see that nbdroot is not parsed there
<ogra> doesnt need to
<laga> oh.
<laga> it's magic.
<ogra> the kernel parses it and adds it to the env
<laga> good, thank you.
<laga> that saves me some work actually. great. :)
<ogra> anyway, i need to go on packing :)
<laga> :)
<juliux> hey ogra
<juliux> ogra, are you fine wiht edubuntu coffee mugs?
<stgraber> argh, looks like we have a small problem with italc and ltsp :)
<stgraber> I can run ica (client daemon) on a custom port (different one for each thin client) but I can't tell the admin interface which port to connect to ...
<soberano> Is it possible to "upgrade" to Edubuntu from an Ubuntu install?
<stgraber> yes
<soberano> stgraber: easy process?
<stgraber> installing the "edubuntu-desktop" package should do it
<soberano> ok... I'll check it out... thanks
<stgraber> if you want ltsp it's a bit harder (one more package to install and a couple of cmd)
<stgraber> is that for a desktop or a server (LTSP) ?
<soberano> I've installed Ubuntu Fiesty Fawn in parallels, Mac OS X; but I wanted Edubuntu... now I"m upgrading to Gibbon.. but the Edubuntu install for me didn't work on my Mac
<soberano> so I'm looking for the desktop/singler user edition
<stgraber> ok, so just upgrade your ubuntu to Gutsy Gibbon
<stgraber> then install edubuntu-desktop
#edubuntu 2009-01-12
<LaserJock> hmm, no RichEd
<nubae> hey there RichEd
<nubae> just a quickie... me and Laserjock were looking at the help and community pages of edubuntu.org, can we put u as the general education contact?
<RichEd> hi nubae
<RichEd> thanks for all the work you have  been doing on this ...
<RichEd> and yes indeed you can ... ta
<nubae> cool, the apps list for 8.04 and 8.10 is up there too, as well as a revamped frontpage corresponding to the split between ubuntu education cd and the rest
<highvoltage> hi RichEd
<RichEd> excellent nubae ... hundreds
<RichEd> hey highvoltage
 * RichEd waves
<highvoltage> RichEd: are you still out of the country?
<RichEd> highvoltage: just back last week ...
<highvoltage> RichEd: shew, you were gone long
<nubae> highvoltage: u are listed at contact for community/web, that is still correct?
<highvoltage> nubae: I was just thinking about that, btw the new front page is very nice
<highvoltage> nubae: I'm fine if you change it to your details, if you want
<highvoltage> nubae: I'm fine with making changes, etc when required. although pips1 has actually been responsible for the site for about 2 years now
<highvoltage> (or at least was supposed to be)
<nubae> it doesn't really affect what happens to the website, I guess its just a case of where emails go concerning community/web
<nubae> do u get a lot?
<highvoltage> about 1 every 2 months or so
<highvoltage> usually a spelling correction or something simple
<nubae> well, I dont mind so much, if u prefer not to get the mail, let me know and I'll change it to my details
<highvoltage> I don't mind at all. Could I forward the mail to you if I'm real busy at the time and can't get to it?
<nubae> sure thing
<highvoltage> awesome.
<nubae> RichEd: have u heard anything further from Sugarlabs?
<RichEd> nubae: not since new year no ... i will touch sides with david soon ... will keep you in the loop
<RichEd> nubae: http://www.edubuntu.org/applications/8.10 & 8.04 look very slick ... much impressed !
<nubae> yah, we could do with more content, but not quite sure where to go from here...
<RichEd> nubae: i'm working on some stuff ... will chat soon about sharing
<nubae> oh cool...
<RichEd> (about ubuntu as a solution across the whole education requirement - from data centre to classroom)
<RichEd> nubae: do you also get large white/blank linespacing in the application lists page ?
<nubae> just checking, in hardy.. yes
<nubae> I'll try and fix that...
<nubae> thanks for the heads up
<RichEd> np ... presume it's a small style formatting wobbly
<RichEd> otherwise ... it looks stonking ! very pretty & crisp
<nubae> yeah, its due to copying and pasting from dreamweaver...
<sbalneav> Morning all
<LaserJock> morning morning Edu Land!
<LaserJock> RichEd: pingy pingy
<RichEd> pongy pong
<sbalneav> Hey LaserJock
<RichEd> sbalneav: :)
<LaserJock> Scott!
<LaserJock> RichEd: alright, I spend some time this weekend munging the seeds about
<LaserJock> RichEd: I know have a new edubuntu-meta source package ready to upload that will give use ubuntu-edu-*
<LaserJock> I have a question though
<LaserJock> the removal of metapackage can be handled in two different ways
<LaserJock> 1) if the metapackage is removed all the apps that it depends on are also removed
<LaserJock> 2) if the metapackage is removed none of the apps that it depends on are removed
<LaserJock> I'm thinking that we'd want to do 1)
<LaserJock> since I think users will expect the "bundle" concept to be all or nothing
<RichEd> mvo said that a package will look at whether or not an application was installed explicitly, rather than as a bundle
<RichEd> the explicit installs will remain, the bundled ones will be removed
<RichEd> dependencies will be removed iff no other application needs them
<RichEd> ?
<LaserJock> that would be 1)
<LaserJock> I also have the ability to do 2) though so I wanted to ask
<LaserJock> ubuntu-desktop is don't that way, for instance
<LaserJock> if you remove ubuntu-desktop you don't wipe out your entire system ;-)
<LaserJock> but I think for us we always want to use 1) because we're not installing/removing core functionality
<RichEd> i'll defer to your choice :)
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> RichEd: did you see the new homepage on edubuntu.org?
<LaserJock> oh nice, I got an explosion incident report :-)
<HedgeMage> lol
<HedgeMage> Do you explode things often?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> last Spring semester though we had a grad student blow up a lab
<LaserJock> so I guess just now the final report was given out
<HedgeMage> lol
<LaserJock> basic result: don't mix nitric acid with methanol
<HedgeMage> heh
<LaserJock> well, don't mix them and cap the container
<LaserJock> ~40 min later you get a big boom
<HedgeMage> glad it wasn't me.
<HedgeMage> no one was hurt, I hope?
<LaserJock> not too bad
<LaserJock> there was a grad student there
<LaserJock> but the hood doors took most of the blast
<LaserJock> she just got what looked  like a good sun tan and a few minor cuts
 * HedgeMage nods
<LaserJock> the glass container completely disintegrated into glass dust, they never found any of it
<HedgeMage> wow
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> didn't even find the cap
<HedgeMage> My knowledge of chemistry, unfortunately, is pretty limited -- I can cook, and I can make baking soda volcanos to entertain my son, that's about it.
<HedgeMage> Though in my defense, I've never accidentally blown anything up, either.
<LaserJock> there you go
<HedgeMage> :)
<HedgeMage> I just got back from a business trip and am trying some amazing teas I picked up :)
<LaserJock> nice
<HedgeMage> very
<Lns> HedgeMage: "amazing" meaning.. ? :)
<HedgeMage> Lns: meaning interesting and higher quality than I can buy near my home.  I got an earl grey + white, a Rooibus + Chai + Mate, and a White + Bamboo + fruit -- all amazing, though I think the last one is becoming my favorite of the three.
<Lns> wow, that sounds really good
<Lns> i've been getting into green teas a lot lately
<Lns> very nice alternative to coffee
<Lns> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/269188 - nspr got fixed, for Jaunty! That means Firefox 3 will be usable in LTSP !
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 269188 in nspr "Extreme slowness, "Firefox is already running" error for >3 users launching Firefox in LTSP environment" [Medium,Fix released]
<LaserJock> ohh?!
<Lns> So Im going to work on getting an SRU for Hardy.
<Lns> i'm waiting for someone in #ubuntu-testing to help me out with the process
<Lns> After reading your blog post yet again, LaserJock =)
<LaserJock> I need to reboot
<LaserJock> gimme a minute and we can talk SRU ;-)
<Lns> np =) thx!
<HedgeMage> Lns: this place had a great selection of those, too, I just could only afford to try a few in one trip!
<Lns> HedgeMage: that is awesome.. once i get a bigger office that i can put a coffee maker in (yeah, its that small!) im going to be drinking green tea daily
<HedgeMage> Lns: there are also controlled hot water dispensers that you can set to the optimal temperature for the tea you are making at the time (whites, for example, are generally best steeped around 175F while many chais can be steeped at 208-220F)
<sbalneav> Lns: For all the talk of that bug, I've had absolutely NO problems with firefox here, running hardy.
<HedgeMage> hi, sbalneav
<sbalneav> hey HedgeMage
<Lns> sbalneav: How many simultaneous users were launching at the same time?
<Lns> for my situation its when a class comes into the computer lab, logs in and launches FF ALL at the same time
<Lns> so the server's entropy is exausted
<Lns> But 1-2 people launching it at a time seems to work fine
<LaserJock> hmm, seems my reboot won't be so easy, my other partition is toast :-)
<Lns> yikes!
<LaserJock> ah well, I guess I'll reinstall
<Lns> what did you DO?? ;)
<LaserJock> Lns: anyway, so you want to push for a SRU to Hardy/Intrepid for that Firefox thing?
<LaserJock> Lns: updated jaunty
<Lns> Yes please =)
<Lns> Im reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates right now
<Lns> Hopefully we can convince the powers that be that this is SRU material, and not just a backport.. ?
<sbalneav> Lns: I've got 38 copies of it opened.
<Lns> sbalneav: did they all launch FF at the same time (within 30 seconds of each other) ? That's where the entropy gets squashed pretty bad
<alkisg> Does this also affect intrepid?
<Lns> I want a dummy mouse/kb driver for the server that sends random input so that doesnt happen ;)
<Lns> alkisg: not sure, all my sites are on hardy
<Lns> i'd assume so though'
<alkisg> I've seen it happening some times, and I think it was both previously in hardy and also now on Intrepid. I thought the checking for newer extensions versions was to blame, though... Good news.
<Lns> could be - anything that uses /dev/random excessively (there were multiple fixes for FF "Places" mechanism that overused it, so they switched to urandom since it doesnt block requests if entropy runs out on the server
<LaserJock> Lns: I would talk to fta about doing SRUs since he's the one that did the fix in Jaunty
<Lns> Probably doesnt affect FF as a localapp
<Lns> LaserJock: ok
<LaserJock> it seems like something that would be SRUable
<LaserJock> but it's probably better to have the Mozilla Team working on that they us
<LaserJock> *then us
<Lns> ok, im always in #ubuntu-mozillateam, im asking right now
<LaserJock> I think Jaunty could be a pretty good release for Edubuntu
<LaserJock> :-)
<Lns> LaserJock: fta wants us to test the Jaunty fix before doing an SRU
<LaserJock> Lns: I agree totally
<Lns> I dont have any Jaunty setups anywhere, anybody here care to test it out that has more than 3 thin clients to launch FF at the same time (with new profiles) ?
<LaserJock> it's not a straightforward bug
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> we really need to try to get a group of testers together
<Lns> yes
<Lns> i can post to the lists
<LaserJock> it's a tough issue with LTSP as you need a whole other setup
<LaserJock> well, hmm
<LaserJock> I wonder if we can make virtual LTSP testing labs with vmware/virtualbox/kvm
<Lns> That's what fta asked me if i had
<Lns> but im running my own ltsp so it would conflict with that :(
<Lns> fta there's also my ppa, you can just dl the nspr debs for hardy, they have the fix
<Lns> (he just said that)
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> oh sweet, my TV converter boxes just showed up
<LaserJock> my local ABC station went all digital today
<Lns> lol, my tech and I were just talking about that 5 minutes ago
<LaserJock> first in the state or something
<Lns> wow
<LaserJock> I just got a blinking message "if you can see this you need a converter"
<Lns> lol
<LaserJock> I'm curious if these things really work
<LaserJock> I suppose I could go and buy a TV that *wasn't* made at least 15 years ago
<LaserJock> but that'd just be too easy
<Lns> or you could "kill your tv" ;)
<LaserJock> yeah, well, there are a few shows I still like
 * LaserJock missed 24 last night :(
<Lns> ah
<Lns> i used to watch that one a bit
<Lns> (in #ubuntu-mozillateam) Lns fta: if I used the packages from your PPA on Hardy and tested, would that be enough for an SRU request?
<Lns> fta yes
<LaserJock> awesome
<Lns> Hopefully upgrading nspr isnt going to pull hundreds of packages down
<Lns> Im going to reboot myself and then upgrade, i'll bb in a bit
<LaserJock> wow, this digital stuff is amazing
<Lns> Ok, I've upgraded my own LTSP environment (nspr specifically) using fta's PPA. I'll try and write a simple procedure so others can do the same to test
<Lns> "apt-get install" will upgrade a pkg if its available right, even if its already installed (but a lower version) ?
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure
<Lns> yep
<Lns> Ok, here are the instructions to upgrade NSPR for hardy, if anyone spots any errors in the process please speak up: http://lns.wikidot.com/nsprupdate
<Lns> (just updated right now if anyone's already clicked on it)
<LaserJock> alright, I've just uploaded the new world order :-)
#edubuntu 2009-01-13
<nubae> yo LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi nubae
<nubae> always end up having to talk to you during weird hours
<Meshezabeel> what's so weird about the hours?
<LaserJock> apparently
<nubae> well, if one assumes that america is not the only place on the planet, u will quickly understand :-)
<Meshezabeel> what do you mean, they've discovered other places???
<nubae> so anyway, I feel like getting stuff done... what should we be working on, oh BDFL
<LaserJock> "BDFL"?
<nubae> as an aside the sugar community is depending on us for a ubuntu inclusion solutionn
<LaserJock> us specifically or the  Ubuntu Sugar Team?
<nubae> including sugar properly in Jaunty is what Imeant
<LaserJock> right, but are you saying that the Ubuntu Sugar team is gone?
<nubae> we are currently their saviour... in a a way... so I'm just curious what the ideas are
<nubae> well... not, not 100%
<nubae> but I have noticed many members missing
<LaserJock> I see :(
<nubae> the question is. do we bring in Sugar, with its flaws and all else and make it a part of edubuntu?
<nubae> or not
<LaserJock> well, I don't think it's quite that black-and-white
<nubae> pratically it would mean more of us turning the activities we choose to debs
<LaserJock> we can see if we can get it into Main, if not we shoot for as good of Universe packages as we can manage
<nubae> I prefer the prior
<nubae> thought I know it requires work
<nubae> we make it main. and then decide which activities should also be main
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> just gotta do it
<nubae> we got a lot of activity happening now for Jaunty
<nubae> u have an ideas of where we should be-- final?
<Ahmuck> bring it in on a beta mode
<Ahmuck> ie, sugar-ng
<Ahmuck> for sugar next generation
<nubae> Ahmuck: drive and ambition makes things happen
<Ahmuck> like scribus does
<Ahmuck> correct, but you don't want buggy software in a edu suite.  once it gets a bad name in an edu institution u may never get it back in
<Ahmuck> Meshezabeel: they've discovered other planets :)
<nubae> LaserJock: where should we be going?
<nubae> u are our project lead.... give us a satisfying answer
<LaserJock> well, I think we can put an initial effort in
<LaserJock> if it wraps up well then it's all good
<LaserJock> if there's still bugs we say it's a preview release and we need testers
<Ahmuck> agreed.  a preview and needs testing
<Ahmuck> i'll be glad to do testing
<nubae> but thats still too unspecific... be a bit more specific
<nubae> give a game plan
<LaserJock> ok, so what do we need for the Sugar core?
<nubae> well whats there now works
<LaserJock> ok, so we move that into Main
<nubae> there are missing working dependencies.... like abiword
<nubae> essential for collaboration
<LaserJock> well, we do what we can
<LaserJock> we need to start by listing the specific tasks that need to be done
<LaserJock> we can then look at how much can be done in Jaunty and go from there
<nubae> can we fix the abiword stuff before letting sugar go into main?
<LaserJock> for me right now though Sugar is a rather nebulous thing
<LaserJock> I don't know, depends on what it takes to "fix" it
<nubae> nebulous?
<LaserJock> people just talk to me about Sugar
<nubae> ok, let me help u then cause I know...
<LaserJock> I don't know about it very much but there are quite a few components
<nubae> ok, so we talk about the components and we understand.... itsnot rocket science
 * LaserJock would rather sometimes have rocket science ;-)
<nubae> lol
<nubae> so anyway plan is..
<nubae> understand /accept core
<nubae> then choose activities that make sense
<nubae> right?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> remember that we can leave a lot in Universe too
<LaserJock> we could leave the whole thing in Universe if we wanted to but we have room on the CD
<Ahmuck> nn
<nubae> right, but I wrote an email with possible apps that could be the future of edubuntu... u should have commented
<LaserJock> I will comment
<LaserJock> just been working on some other stuff lately
<nubae> anyway... What should I be working on now?
<LaserJock> ok, right
 * LaserJock notes not to try to hold an IRC conversation while taking a shower
<LaserJock> there's 4 important technical tasks as I see it for Jaunty
<LaserJock> 1) app bundle and metapackage new world order
<LaserJock> 2) replacement and desired general edu apps
<LaserJock> 3) Sugar
<LaserJock> 4) moodle
<LaserJock> nubae: does that sound about right?
<nubae> yup i doodle
<LaserJock> 1 I think I got handled ok so 2,3,4 are up for discussion
<LaserJock> 2 I think at most we might get 5 apps changed
<LaserJock> more or less depending on how hard the deps are
<LaserJock> 3 needs to have somebody more familiar than myself to make up a todo list
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> well Sugra in Main ain't gonna happen for Jaunty
<LaserJock> 18 MIRs would need to be done
<nothingman> hi, all
<LaserJock> hi nothingman
<nothingman> what's new tonight?
<LaserJock> not a ton
<LaserJock> we were discussing Sugar and Jaunty earlier
<nothingman> oh, really?
<nothingman> got a link to the log?
<nothingman> I've been wondering how to integrate Sugar with ltsp
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't think I do
<LaserJock> nubae has been looking at some of that
<nothingman> yeah, I read his (long) howto on telepathy and empathy
<nothingman> not much out there on terms as sugar clients, though
<nothingman> and the networking dialog within sugar is a bit confusing
<nothingman> or, at least, I couldn't get two nested sugar-emulator windows to communicate when I had installed empathy/ejabberd
<nothingman> I would love to boot my (dead HD) laptops from a usb stick with sugar, and use the wireless as mesh
<nothingman> not that I probably really know what that would entail...
 * nothingman hears crickets
<LaserJock> sorry, a bit distracted presently :-)
 * LaserJock spams edubuntu-devel and goes to bed
<nubae> this channel seems to have less and less people by the day...
<Nilse> Hi, i would like to discuss about edubuntu
<Nilse> I dont know what I need, when I want to switch a school to edubuntu from an windows system
<Diskdoc> Hi! I decided on idly asking around here about the problem with some terminals not starting since Edubuntu Ibex. i thought more people would have had this problem but it hasn't got much attention on the list, just the (older) NFS workaround.
<Diskdoc> I thought I'd try compiling a more streamlined/tuned kernel for the terminals but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I think I still can do it..used to be a Gentooer :)
<Diskdoc> "Edubuntu Ibex"..Intrepid Ibex, rather. Sorry, tired as usual..
<generalsnus> hi guys. is it possible make a wireless access point with a laptop with x2 wlan cards? as in: recive a wireless signal on wlan card 1.. and have the other wlan card act as a AP.. kinda like a repeater
<sbalneav> Morning all
<LaserJock> moin all
<HedgeMage> hi, LaserJock
<highvoltage> moin Mr Laser and Mrs Hedge
<HedgeMage> greetings, highvoltage
<LaserJock> hola highvoltage
<highvoltage> how are things?
 * HedgeMage bought *really* good tea on her business trip :)
<LaserJock> I just got up
 * LaserJock is not a morning person
<HedgeMage> :)
<highvoltage> hmm, tea. not a bad idea.
<HedgeMage> :)
 * LaserJock is having some blueberry instant oatmeal
<LaserJock> I managed to break some things yesterday and had the release manger and cjwatson on my tail ;-)
<HedgeMage> :o
<Lns> For anyone interested, here's an interesting article about Microsoft's educational initiatives and how afraid they are about GNU/Linux and Openoffice/Staroffice - http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/12/2116230
 * Ahmuck re-did the ltsp server this morning
<alkisg> Ahmuck: succesfully?
<Ahmuck> yes, why?
<sbalneav> ogra: still around?
<Ahmuck> when i do it that way, i do have to  re-create the users
<Ahmuck> all of them :(
<alkisg> Ahmuck: I thought you were having problems with the network...
<Ahmuck> ah, yes, and hence the dumping the old ltsp installation
<Ahmuck> fresh new server, and i'll do testing in a vm from now on
<Lns> Ahmuck: you didnt back up your passwd/group/etc files?
<alkisg> I think there are some scripts that you can use to merge the existing users into the new installation. I think also the installer allows you to import them.
<Lns> Its trivial to put them back after reinstalling
<alkisg> (I do it manually, copying the entries from /etc/passwd ...)
<Lns> alkisg: yeah, but dont forget shadow/group/gshadow if applicable
<Ahmuck> Lns: nope
<alkisg> Lns, that's what the dots (...) were for! :P :D
<Ahmuck> i just gave em generic passwords and forced them into new ones the next time they log on
<Lns> alkisg: oh didnt see that .. heh
<Ahmuck> would there be a problem?
<alkisg> Ahmuck: what about their user IDs, their documents, settings etc?
<Ahmuck> ah, i have a seperate /home partition
<alkisg> If you keep their directories, and create new users with the same names, they'll probably have different IDs
<Ahmuck> so everything stays intact
<alkisg> So they won't be able to access their home directories
<Ahmuck> ack !
<Ahmuck> no way of knowing what thier old id's were huh
<alkisg> You could see the /home folder
 * Ahmuck scribbles down lesson #1
<Ahmuck> the /home folder would have thier listed id's ?
<alkisg> ls -n /home
<Ahmuck> ah, i could sudo chown  user:user /home/user_directory
<Ahmuck> for today
<alkisg> Well, yes, but what if a users chown'ed a directory to give permission to one of his friends? You'd loose this...
<Ahmuck> ok
<Ahmuck> well, that's not happened for sure
 * Ahmuck goes off to build svn hugin and kdenlive
<Ahmuck> the user would need to know how to chowned a directory?
<alkisg> You need to do this, they won't have access to do it
<Ahmuck> ah.
<Ahmuck> so in the future i need to backup /etc/password ...
<alkisg> Yup! :)
<Ahmuck> ok.  i'll put that in my notes
<alkisg> How many users do you have?
<Ahmuck> currently, just test users.  about 5
<alkisg> OK, try something like this:  for f in /home; do chown -R $f:$f /home/$f; done
<alkisg> But you'd need "sudo su" before this
<alkisg> Nah, it's wrong, let me fix this...
<alkisg> This is a little better: cd /home; for f in *; do chown -R $f:$f $f; done
<Ahmuck> that will fix my current problem?!
<Ahmuck> i guess?!
<alkisg> Ahmuck: I think so... A better script would read /etc/passwd instead of /home to get the users list (so it wouldn't try chown -R lost+found:lost+found lost+found - which will of course fail so there's no problem there) but I think this will work.
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if we should do something with all the debian-edu packages
<LaserJock> highvoltage, ogra: ping
<highvoltage> LaserJock: just-about-to-fall-asleep-pong
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I need a moderator of edubuntu-devel
<LaserJock> highvoltage: there is a message from Launchpad I need to have
<highvoltage> LaserJock: want the message or want it moderated?
<LaserJock> I want it forwarded to me
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> LaserJock: there aren't any
<highvoltage> (no messages from LP)
<LaserJock> highvoltage: really? :(
<highvoltage> yep
<LaserJock> in edubuntu-devel?
<highvoltage> yes
<highvoltage> there are just 7 spam messages
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ah, wait. non-subscriber messages are auto-discarded
<LaserJock> bah
<highvoltage> one moment...
<highvoltage> LaserJock: it's changed to "hold", if you could let launchpad resend it
<LaserJock> highvoltage: ok, just hit the button
<highvoltage> is it mantha@ubuntu.com or laserjock@ubuntu.com? I have both in my address book
<highvoltage> LaserJock
<LaserJock> laserjock
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> LaserJock: got it?
<LaserJock> yep
<nubae> hey greets
<nubae> did I miss anything?
<LaserJock> I don't know, did I?
<Lns> nubae: yo
<Lns> you can always view the logs.... ;)
<nubae> hi Lns
<Lns> I dont think you missed much
#edubuntu 2009-01-14
<dgroos> Hi All!  I'm working on setting up an LTSP LAN in my science classroom and have a couple questions.
<dgroos> The server is running on two CPU Xeon,
<dgroos> and the thin clients our old Pentium IIIs.
<dgroos> First, I need a good way to manage the computers and I'm looking at iTALC and it seems to be set up pretty well but there  seems to be an issue.
<LaserJock> dgroos: I have some questions for you after your done asking yours :-)
<dgroos> Every time I reboot the server it says  something about an air there is already an ISD  server running on port 5800--  for sure Laserjock!
<dgroos>  I've googled and not understood the solutions any ideas?
<dgroos> Oh yeah -- your turn!
<LaserJock> dgroos: ISD or ISA?
<dgroos> LaserJock: It said ISD.
<LaserJock> yeah, I just got some other google stuff, nevermind me :-)
<LaserJock> dgroos: did you find http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4908575
<dgroos> Laserjock: let me check it out and get back to you!
<LaserJock> it looks like maybe it's not killing off the ica processes
<LaserJock> dgroos: you might also look at http://www.kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3093025 especially the last post
<dgroos> LaserJock:  I actually did see the first one, but that was a  month ago and now they understand Linux a bit better it makes more sense to me now I will give it a try tomorrow when I get school and post what I find out Thanks :-)
<LaserJock> dgroos: so do you have a sec for a couple questions?
<dgroos> LaserJock: absolutely!
<LaserJock> dgroos: I'm just curious about your science classroom. Like what ages, what country, etc.
<dgroos> LaserJock: I teach in Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
<dgroos> My students are currently ninth graders, but most of my teaching, the  previous 17 years was middle school science.
<LaserJock> awesome
<dgroos> My schools have been, and are, pretty typical inner-city classrooms.
<LaserJock> what kind of science?
<dgroos> Right now I'm teaching environmental science, but before that when I taught in middle school it was life science and physical science.
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> I have a BA in Environmental Science
<dgroos> I should warn too, I'm using voice recognition software and sometimes might miss very weird typos!
<LaserJock> currently finishing up a PhD in Physical Chemistry
<dgroos> Cool!
<LaserJock> dgroos: what kinds of applications are you using in your classroom?
<dgroos> I'm currently working on my Ph.D. in curriculum and instruction at the University of Minnesota: and I'm trying to integrate different thoughts about science education, computer access, and collaboration.
<dgroos> Want to check out my blog for a moment?  http://groosd.blogspot.com  -- quickly scroll down the page to see some images, and on older posts, some more images. This could show you a bit of the journey had been taking.
<LaserJock> oh heh, I see edubuntu-menus in there
<dgroos> Since I have not yet got this new LAN  up and running my students haven't done a thing with it yet! However the six years previous to this my students were using the old iMacs built under the table and they mainly used Firefox, CmapTools.
<dgroos> a core service was the http://plone.org  content management system that I've customized for my classroom.
<dgroos> Yes! I've got some questions about edubuntu-menus, too!
<LaserJock> dgroos: well, I wrote it so ask away
<dgroos>  and sorry for the interruption I just remembered I have to go pick up my daughter now but if you're still around in 10 minutes of a back! Thanks so much for your help.
<LaserJock> np
<LaserJock> see you in 10 :-)
<dgroos> LaserJock: not too much more than 10?
<dgroos> So, moving on to edubuntu-menus...
<dgroos>  I've been getting a lot of technical help from volunteers and it's been great and I really appreciate it.
<LaserJock> dgroos: I realized while you were gone that you're the David that left the comment on my blog post
<LaserJock> dgroos: thanks for the input on that
<dgroos> Indeed :-)
<LaserJock> alright, so I read the little comment on your blog about edubuntu-menus
<LaserJock> one point is that Ubuntu and Edubuntu do use the same menus by default
<LaserJock> we've just got edubuntu-menus as hopefully a better way of organizing it
<LaserJock> however, we need a GUI for it
<dgroos>  so, the guy who's been helping me working to create a safe and structured system for the students, as well as a system that allows students to earn more privileges as they showed more responsibility in the use of the network,
<LaserJock> that's interesting, what kind of privileges can they get?
<dgroos> anyway, he thought that sabayon looked like it was a very active and he couldn't get it to work.  ( I'll answer questions in just a second, okay?)
<dgroos>  So he decided to write a program, then came upon your edubuntu-menus and love the solution.
<dgroos> So he installed it on my machine, but he hasn't been able to get back to the machine for almost a month. So again today after school...
<dgroos> I've been working on it, and achieved success, and created my own .menu  file reference to a group I called level1. it was very exciting upon seeing it work perfectly. the science teacher next door heard my shout :-)
<dgroos>  so, the idea is to use edubuntu-menus  as a way to control student access to applications through group membership. But, I found it may not be ideally suited for that.
<dgroos> I tried it with a student and phone that the user could right click on a file and say, "open with..." and choose an application that be perhaps hadn't shown the responsibility that they could use it yet.
<LaserJock> oooh, right. that's a tough one
<dgroos> Okay -- that's my monologue... and to answer question... I want students to be able to use open office and Cmap Tools  at the level one stage. Upon showing responsible computer use for a week...
<dgroos> they move on to level 2 where they can now access Firefox, however using squid  proxy they would only be able to access our classes site though of course there is much opportunity to do web 2.0 kind of things on that site. After another week's responsible use of the computer...
<dgroos> Firefox is opened up to the Web allowing for all the simulations, Google docs, etc..
<dgroos> If they do something very clearly told not to do then they drop back down to level 1 and week by week have to earn the privileges back.
<dgroos>  I feel it is necessary to add this is not about being a control freak, simply accountability. Teachers out there I think know what I mean!
<dgroos> I forgot to mention, students gain access to the games and simulations on edubuntu as they go along, as well.
<dgroos>  so, what is the status of Sabayon?
<dgroos> and how about, Pesslus (I think it's called)
<LaserJock> Sabayon is unfortunately pretty dead right now
<dgroos> :-(
<LaserJock> I was able to track down 1 bug that was making it crash
<LaserJock> but ran into some more
<LaserJock> it was originally developed by Red Hat, but they've pulled out leaving essentially nobody working on it
<LaserJock> Pessulus is doing quite a bit better though
<LaserJock> Pessulus lets you do somewhat limited lockdown via gconf
<LaserJock> sabayon was trying to do complete "profile" management
<LaserJock> dgroos: what about this. what if you don't actually lock students out but rather tracked what apps they opened
<LaserJock> at the end of the day you could say "heah, you opened up firefox and you know you're not supposed to, back to 1"
<dgroos> well, tracking is key, but could you say, 'back to 1' if you don't have a way to enforce it?  Also,
<dgroos> Students, respond generally better in an environment where there are limited choices in that they don't have temptations, so locking out possibilities helps students focus on the creative possiblitities I provide for them...
<LaserJock> I have an idea, but I need to talk with some people about it
<dgroos>  Are you familiar with Apple Remote Desktop http://apple.com/remotedesktop ?
<LaserJock> I've heard of it but not used it
<dgroos> Wait!  I got confused -- Apple Remote Desktop is iTALC with a few polishes
<LaserJock> yeah, something like that
<dgroos> All of the student/group management I did with Apple's server software, "Workgroup Manager"
<dgroos>  user preferences and permissions were all controlled either by group or user settings.
<LaserJock> right
<dgroos>  so when I got to Linux I just assumed they would have some  similar system :-) and it's been slowing me down a lot.
<LaserJock> and could you set those permissions on applications?
<dgroos>  I'm not sure what you mean? Also, do you mean in the Macintosh system or Edubuntu system?
<LaserJock> I mean on the Mac, with the "Workgrouop Manager" let you do what you're talking about, limiting what applications students could run
<dgroos> Yes, you can either wait list or blacklist applications by either user or group.
<dgroos> oops,  that's, "white list", not wait list!
<LaserJock> ok
<dgroos> is edubuntu-menus kind of similar to pessulus?  are they complementary?
<LaserJock> they're very different in what they do
<dgroos> Also, is there some config file where I can disable that right-click open with a particular application?
<LaserJock> edubuntu-menus is designed for presenting a particular menu based on groups
<LaserJock> pessulus lets you lock down things like the panels and I think if a terminal is accesible
<dgroos> sorry--what's a panel?
<LaserJock> I think for the right-click open thing we'd have to lock the actual applications
<LaserJock> dgroos: like the start menu bar
<LaserJock> that shows you the list of open applications, a clock, etc.
<dgroos>  okay, I think I understand. So you could for example get rid of the, System menu, or only allow a few of the preferences to be visible?
<LaserJock> hmm, I think that might actually be more of an edubuntu-menus thing
<LaserJock> but you could, for instance prevent students from messing around with the panel, moving it around and such
<dgroos> I'm going to mess with it :-)
<LaserJock> yeah, I would just play with it a bit
<dgroos>  any thoughts about locking applications by group profiles -- I'm not sure if that's asked properly!
<LaserJock> that would really be sabayon
<LaserJock> ... if it was working :(
<dgroos>  and is perhaps you've seen from some of my soap box-ing (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MinnesotaTeam/Education)I'm quite passionate about helping bring open source into the mainstream education, especially in inner-city classrooms because that's where I've taught but I believe it's important for all places.
<dgroos> I'd like to help you folks who have been working on this directly for a long time.
<dgroos> LaserJock: do you have any suggestions where I ought to be heading right now with this need to manage user privileges?
<dgroos> right: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MinnesotaTeam/Education
<LaserJock> I would email the edubuntu-users mailing list
<LaserJock> even though I'm a developer I'm not really an educator (yet) so my experience on what people are using is limited
<LaserJock> this issue of user management in the classroom is *very* important to me
<LaserJock> right now though I'm not sure what the best way to attack the problem of locking down individual applications
<LaserJock> in general, Linux tries to be helpful but making it easier to *let* users access applications, we're facing the opposite problem
<dgroos> Right :-)
<dgroos> it seems paradoxical that to help someone gain freedom one must provide them with limits :-)
<dgroos> but such is part of teaching, I'd say.
<dgroos> I will e-mal the user group tomorrow.
<LaserJock> I'm very interested in your Growing Communities Of Scientists being both a scientist and a technologist
<dgroos> Thank you VERY much for your generously-given time this evening, it has provided me with a broader understanding of a few things.  I'll most likely be on tomorrow eve...
<LaserJock> you've done a great job with your blog, lots of details and pictures
<dgroos> Thanks.
<dgroos> Also, the meeting, is that on this channel?
<LaserJock> it will actually be in the #ubuntu-meeting channel
<LaserJock> that's Ubuntu general meeting place
<dgroos> I should be able to catch the first 10 minutes it as classes start a bit later on Wed.
<dgroos> I'll try to do a bit of lurking :-)
<LaserJock> ok, sorry about the time issue, I think we're going to try to adjust it as a couple people have mentioned it being inconvenient
<LaserJock> it's hard scheduling times when it involves people from all over the world :-)
<dgroos> Thanks and best of luck with your dissertation--I was reading your blog...
<LaserJock> dgroos: my email is laserjock@ubuntu.com if you've got any questions, need some info on edubuntu-menus, etc.
<LaserJock> I'm glad you dropped by
<dgroos> Thanks--mine is djgroos at gmail dot com
<dgroos> take it easy!
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> you as well
<highvoltage> morning LaserJock
<LaserJock> oh, hi highvoltage
<LaserJock> I was just about to post a radical blog post ;-)
<highvoltage> cool
<highvoltage> did you get that email last night?
<highvoltage> (or probably "this morning" for you)
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> all worked out
<LaserJock> night all
<Diskdoc> Help! I have a problem with our temrinals and I can't seem to get it solved!
<Diskdoc> Have classes to attend to at the same time..I'll check in here later if someone answered
<Diskdoc> terminals boot up fine, user logs in, seems to work but before the desktop is shown
<Diskdoc> the user is thrown back to the login screen
<Diskdoc> On all terminals starting from today.. SSH to the server (from workstations) works normally
<Diskdoc>  I rebuild the client image and did the ltsp ssh pass update as well
<Diskdoc> I think had this before once, and then it was the permissions on the /home dir (my mistake)
<Diskdoc> But not this time.. My only clue is some errors on the terminals console that complains about client authorization not being good. I googled it and it seems Pulseaudio-related
<Diskdoc> Everyone wake up over there, on the other side of the world :)
<Diskdoc> Looking att auth.log everything seems normal..
<Diskdoc>  pam_unix(sshd:session): session opened for user test2 by (uid=0)
<Diskdoc> subsystem request for sftp
<Diskdoc> pam_unix(sshd:session): session closed for user test2
<Diskdoc> Creating a new user and logging in from a terminal also fails
<Diskdoc> Yes, that was it.. Cleared some files from /home and everything works again
<sbalneav> Morning all
<Ahmuck> i thinking about giving hugin lessons on ltsp computers to our local students in march
<LaserJock> stgraber: congrats!!!
<Ahmuck> any way to include hugin in part of the base edubuntu packages?
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: I don't think presently
<LaserJock> I'd need to check the Jaunty version specifically, but in Intrepid it depends on wxwidgets2.6
<Ahmuck> presently it's not or presntly there is no way
<Ahmuck> ?
<LaserJock> presently there is no way
<Ahmuck> u mean 8.10?
<Ahmuck> well, i meant in upcoming releases
<LaserJock> we'd need to port it (which may or may not be trivial) to wxwidgets2.8 I think
<LaserJock> yes, I'm just basing my data on 8.10 since that's what I'm running at the moment
<Ahmuck> why port it?
<nubae> greets LaserJock
<LaserJock> because wxwidgets2.6 can't go in Main
<LaserJock> or is very unlikely to
<LaserJock> to get hugin looks to involve pulling in another 4 or 5 packages
<LaserJock> I think it'd be better off to put that in a Universe bundle for now
<LaserJock> but it's a good idea for sure
<LaserJock> we need to start getting or Universe list of apps together
<LaserJock> I can get the bundle packages worked up fairly soon
<LaserJock> the packaging for the Main ones is done and uploaded
<LaserJock> ubuntu-edu-* now exists, though I think the lists are all that great right now, I just sort of guessed
<nubae> I sent out an email with a bunch of suggestions
<nubae> and received no repsonse
<LaserJock> nubae: did you get my reply?
<nubae> no
<LaserJock> wha?
<LaserJock> for goodness sakes!!! stupid Gmail
<LaserJock> I spent quite a few hours writing up 4 emails for -devel and they got sent with the wrong address
<LaserJock> no wonder I didn't get any response
<nubae> yeah I was wondering why u were ignoring the list :-)
<nubae> I was kickstarting fires all over, but no response
<LaserJock> nah, I was emailing up a storm, it just wasn't going anywhere
<nubae> :-)
<nubae> LaserJock: I'll be at FOSSDEM 5th Feb. (Brussels)
<nubae> maybe some other edubuntarians will be there
<LaserJock> oh, email edubuntu-users maybe and ask
<LaserJock> nubae: to get mahara into main would require php-file and smarty
<LaserJock> not sure how much the security team would complain about PHP
<nubae> meaning?
<nubae> well its practically needed for every web app
<LaserJock> meaning, we'd need to do those 3 MIRs to get it in
<nubae> ok
<nubae> well, I'd like to do ejabberd
<LaserJock> it was just info, not saying impossible
<LaserJock> in general Ubuntu/Canonical doesn't like PHP all that much
<LaserJock> they're somewhat practical about it, but it's still something we might have to deal with
<nubae> very well, so for ejabberd, what should I do
<nubae> I've been reading the MIR document
<nubae> what are the steps I should take?
<LaserJock> one thing that might help you is a script that I use to find out what other packages things need
<LaserJock> it's called 404main
<LaserJock> it's in the ubuntu-dev-tools package
<nubae> k instaled
<LaserJock> you can install that, but if it wants to have you install a whole bunch of stuff we can extract out just 404main
<LaserJock> ah, ok
<LaserJock> so run 404main ejabberd
<LaserJock> the condition that a package has to have to be in Main is that all it's dependencies and all it's *build* dependencies must also be in Main
<nubae>    grep-dctrl
<nubae>    erlang-abi-11.b.3
<nubae>    erlang-dev
<nubae>    libsctp1
<nubae>    ejabberd
<nubae>    libsctp-dev
<nubae>    erlang-nox
<nubae>    erlang-base
<LaserJock> right
<nubae> damnthat requires main inclusiosn for all those too
<LaserJock> well, not exactly
<LaserJock> you see those are the binary packages
<LaserJock> we now need to get the source package mappings
<nubae> ok
<LaserJock> as you can imagine all the erlang stuff is probably going to be 1 package
<nubae> yeah
<LaserJock> so you can use apt-cache madison
<LaserJock> so I ran apt-cache madison libsctp1
<LaserJock> and that tells me the source package is lksctp-tools and in Intrepid at least it's in Universe
<nubae> they're all in universe
<LaserJock> so we need, lksctp-tools, erlang, and grep-dctrl
<nubae> have u spoken to ogra about the edubuntu-members launchpad team?
<LaserJock> I'm a little suspicious of grep-dctrl
<LaserJock> about ~edubuntu?
<LaserJock> and no, I haven't
<nubae> why suspicious?
<LaserJock> I don't think of it normally as a build-dep, but I verified it is
<LaserJock> we use it a far amount as a development tool
<LaserJock> hmm, lkscrtp-tools may not be trivial
<LaserJock> "user-space access to Linux Kernel SCTP"
<LaserJock> seems like the kernel/security team might want to know about that
<nubae> > kgeography - already in main
<nubae> > klettres - already in main
<nubae> These have been dropped/replaced in KDE 4
<nubae> they haven't
<nubae> http://edu.kde.org/
<LaserJock> I don't think that's consistent with KDE 4.2
<LaserJock> hmm, wait a sec
<nubae> I have to run... talk later..
<LaserJock> bah, my bad
<LaserJock> I was thinking kpercentage
<LaserJock> both of those kgeography and klettres are in Main already, we just need to put them in the seeds if they aren't already
<Ahmuck> what does it take to package for universe?
<Ahmuck> currenlty hugin does so much more than simple panographs
<Ahmuck> for example, it now does panni and archietcial projects, and someone is stictching panographic movies togather
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: what do you mean "what does it take to package for universe"? do you mean how do you get a package into universe?
<Ahmuck> yes.
<Ahmuck> the current hugin does not have the latest features
<Ahmuck> something like hugin-ng
<LaserJock> well, it can be a fairly big task, but there's quite a bit of documentation and lots of helpful people in #ubuntu-motu
<Ahmuck> i build my own from svn
<Ahmuck> which might explain why packages don't get in or updated?
<LaserJock> if you can base it off of the current hugin package then it'd be a lot easier
<LaserJock> somewhat yeah, there's a lot of things to consider
<LaserJock> we need to not only consider newer features, but also stability, supportability, etc.
<LaserJock> it also depends on how active maintainers are in that area
<Ahmuck> alkisg: yep, i'm having problems with user directories L(
<alkisg> Ahmuck: what?
<alkisg> Oh, with the chown thing?
<Ahmuck> user id's
<Ahmuck> not matching
<alkisg> Did you run the one-liner I wrote you yesterday?
<Ahmuck> heh, nope
<Ahmuck> sorry
<Ahmuck> i was just comment is all
<alkisg> Give it a try, it may solve your problems
<LaserJock> did you guys happen to catch my blog post from yesterday/today?
<Ahmuck> no
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: http://laserjock.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/why-we-need-edubuntu-to-succeed/
<LaserJock> it was on Planet Ubuntu if you read that
<LaserJock> I wanted to get some feedback from some edubunteros
<Lns> LaserJock: You are right on track!
<Lns> A word of caution, as it has been in my own mind, we are treading dangerous waters, however.... there are powers that do not want Linux in Education, and they have billions at hand to try to prevent it from happening on a large scale.
<Lns> With that in mind, however, that might just be enough motivation for us to come together to fight those powers with our best weapon - superior technology.
<LaserJock> heh, maybe they can use some of their billions to get me a job  :-)
<nubae> Lns: u saw Obama's stance?
<Lns> nubae: ?
<nubae> on truthout
<Lns> no? not sure what you're talking about
<nubae> http://www.truthout.org/011209R
<nubae> check item 6
<Lns> mmm, chili bowl *drool*
<LaserJock> heh
<Lns> wow
<Lns> thats pretty cool
<Lns> I guess the US is headed in the right direction (finally)
<LaserJock> nubae: that's interesting but I'm not sure it's gonna end up doing much
<Lns> But, I still wouldnt underestimate the power of above said powers
<nubae> we'll see how much truth there is to that (no pun intended) :p
<Lns> heh
<LaserJock> I imagine he's also going to bail out MS by pushing for upgrading schools
<LaserJock> "ohh, the government is gonna pay for new licenses, sweet"
<Lns> MS already dumps their software into education at 0 cost..did any of you read the link i posted yesterday around this time?
<LaserJock> hmm, perhaps
<nubae> so LaserJock, to get back to ejabberd... should I try and follow the process of MIRing it along with its deps?
<LaserJock> nubae: you might first want to email ubuntu-motu
<LaserJock> there might be other people who would like it in Main and might be willing to help
<nubae> ok, what should I say?
<LaserJock> say that you are interested in getting ejabberd in Main so it can go on the Ubuntu Education CD
<nubae> ok
<Lns> http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/10/edgi-continued-dumping-vs-gnu/
<LaserJock> and list the other packages that need to get a MIR too
<LaserJock> and then ask for thoughts on moving it? there may be some objections, I don't know for sure
<LaserJock> nubae: you can always run the email by me first if you're unsure
<LaserJock> or heck, I can email it for you if you like
<nubae> ok I'll do that then
<LaserJock> Lns: that's an interesting read
<Lns> LaserJock: massive understatement. ;)
<LaserJock> it really is amazing to me how well Linux/FLOSS competes
<LaserJock> here we are a bunch of volunteers, often times amateur coders
<LaserJock> and yet, MS gets a bit scared that we might get to Education
<Lns> LaserJock: that's because they know our tech. is better than theirs, and they are so slow moving they have to figure out how to keep us at bay. Educators LOVE what LTSP/*buntu does, and the students love it too.
<Lns> They can't make their tech better, because it would mean a windows fork.
<Lns> or not even a fork..just a "start over"
<Lns> I would imagine in the near future them coming out with a linux distro
<Lns> kind of a stage-2 novell strategy
<LaserJock> one place where I know they're struggling is netbooks and smallish devices
<LaserJock> I really hope we can make some sort of difference here
<LaserJock> sometimes I get pretty down when I read about things like sabayon
<LaserJock> I think "man, are we *ever* going to be truly good for educators"
<Lns> LaserJock: Is MS "truly good for educators" ?
<LaserJock> I don't feel it is
<Lns> It's not the finish line, but the race that matters most
 * Lns is feeling overly philosophical this morning
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I was really excited by drgoos little computer enabled science classroom thing
<stgraber> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> partly because I'm a scientist and I see a lot of misuse or under-use of technology in the science classroom
<LaserJock> stgraber: big step :-)
<stgraber> yep, will make a lot of things easier :)
<Lns> LaserJock: technology in any classroom/school is underused or misused.
<Lns> they need people like us that are passionate about improving that.
<Lns> That's why Im focusing my business model on doing exactly that.
<LaserJock> yeah, we really need people
<LaserJock> edu people in upstreams like Gnome and KDE
<LaserJock> Mozilla and OO.o
<LaserJock> sometimes you gotta think like an educator
<LaserJock> I still don't know what to think about sabayon
<Lns> I'm just now learning the ins and outs of educational structure
<LaserJock> earlier in the week I wanted to ditch it completely
<LaserJock> and then that email showed up
<Lns> LaserJock: from the list posts, in FC9 it worked great, its a *buntu thing i think
<LaserJock> well, that sort of makes sense
<LaserJock> it was written by Red Hat
<LaserJock> you'd think if it was gonna work anywhere it would be there :-)
<Lns> haha, true!
<Lns> So the golden question is this: how do you motivate the OSS community to fix bugs in a piece of software when they dont really want to/have the time to ?
<Lns> Money is a debatable solution, and highly controversial for us
<LaserJock> well, money directly
<LaserJock> but money can motivate companies to hire people
<Lns> Would a NPO make more sense than a company/for profit outfit?
<Lns> Volunteers are kinda what we are already
<LaserJock> kinda
<LaserJock> but I think it might be hard to get a NPO to last
<Lns> why's that?
<LaserJock> it'd need some sort of revenue
<Lns> NPOs get donations
<nubae> I think we should accept donations
<nubae> on the website
<LaserJock> right, but in bad economic times, etc. it might be hard to make it sustainable
<LaserJock> a company has an advantage of venture capital
<Lns> LaserJock: not if the benefits of saving money on software licenses outweighs it...
<LaserJock> and say other areas of the company that pay for a losing part
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> but what would the NPO return to the "investor"?
<LaserJock> "you give us money and we'll put it toward a good cause"
<LaserJock> I'm not saying it's impossible or it shouldn't be done
<LaserJock> but I think it'd be kinda hard to get very far with it
<Lns> hmm
<Lns> well cant you donate to a specific project?
<LaserJock> you'd probably want at least ~$250k/year in donations/grants to actually make a dent in anything
<Lns> and the NPO would take care of that?
<LaserJock> you might
<Lns> look at the "sponsor a child in africa" stuff...
<LaserJock> but say somebody donates $50 to sabayon, what's that gonna do?
<Lns> LaserJock: i think you're massively underestimating the potential of a world-wide NPO
<LaserJock> no, my point is if they can pick anything to donate too then it gets spread awfully thin
<LaserJock> a "choose between these 10 projects or donate to the general fund" would probably work better
<Lns> sure
<LaserJock> I wonder if it'd be possible to make like an Education section of an existing FLOSS NPO
<Lns> LaserJock: http://www.schoolforge.net/
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Sigh.  Looks like Sabayon still needs a lot of love.
<sbalneav> bug 150068
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 150068 in sabayon "Sabayon editor crashes when trying to make a change in a profile" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150068
<LaserJock> sbalneav: yes
<LaserJock> sbalneav: it looks to me like what has happened is that Gnome has "moved" underneath sabayon and nobody has been around to "resync"
<sbalneav> Cripes.  I've been doing work on the docs, but I wonder if I shouldn't spend some time on this.
<LaserJock> one of the bugs I was able to fix seems to be due to a difference in how the panel is done in gconf
<sbalneav> So you've been doing some work on sabayon?
<LaserJock> a little bit, trying to learn how it works, etc.
<Lns> isnt johnny in #ltsp done a lot of sabayon dev?
<LaserJock> I was half thinking of trying to get a couple people and take it over upstream
<Lns> i thought he was in charge of it or something.
<sbalneav> Johnny's doing the gentoo port, I thought.
<sbalneav> Anywho, looks like sabayon's like, the biggest PITA for people to adopt these days.
<LaserJock> I think user management/control is really the big thing
<LaserJock> right now, for instance, if you install sabayon you can't add users using the Users and Groups admin tool
<Lns> sbalneav: yes, i havent introduced it anywhere since testing in Feisty..
<Lns> LaserJock: the gnome users/groups tool is another can of worms i opened a while back regarding sorting/searching
<Lns> doesnt work
<sbalneav> bleh.  And when I looked at it a while ago, it's code isn't... the most obvious.  Sigh.
<LaserJock> it'd be one thing if filing bugs worked
<sbalneav> LaserJock: I suppose I should set up a jaunty box tonight, and start hacking.
<LaserJock> but if there's nobody home upstream we dont' get anywhere
<sbalneav> Yeah, upstream doesn't seem to have time to work on it.
<sbalneav> CR*******P!!!! So much work.... ok, LaserJock, you gonna be around tonight?
<LaserJock> yes, I'll be around, you wanna do some brainstorming?
<sbalneav> Lets see if we can target.... 3 of our top bugs, and I'll start trying to fix 'em
<LaserJock> my issue has been that I simply *can't* take on a project by myself. I desperately need to finish my dissertation :(
<sbalneav> Maybe I can take a "work at home" day on Friday, and spend all day trying to track some stuff down.
<LaserJock> I'd love to help where I can though, for sure
<sbalneav> Dude, YOUR education's more important than Edubuntu: that's a given.  So don't even remotely feel bad.
<LaserJock> well, I do feel bad
<LaserJock> I'm glad to see more people around here, it's really encouraging
<sbalneav> No worries.  After I get back from Number 2 son's Piano lesson tonight, we'll brainstorm.
<LaserJock> k
<Lns> I'm here for testing as well, at least on Hardy if possible. I'd love to see sabayon functional, as my own downstream techs.
<Lns> they would see it as a godsend
<sbalneav> Well, I'd like to see it for hardy as well, but I suppose it's easiest to try to get it working on Jaunty, then see if we can backport the fixes.
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> sabayon itself hasn't changed much since Hardy
<sbalneav> ok
<LaserJock> I think the changed a couple not-really-code-related things but that's it
<sbalneav> then it should be fairly easy, if we can identify the patches.
<LaserJock> *they
<nubae> Laserjock did u get my MIR mail?
<Ahmuck> gtk is dead
<Ahmuck> nokia just placed qt in LGPL
<LaserJock> nubae: yeah
<LaserJock> nubae: did you want me to forward it on or did you just want me to look at it?
<Ahmuck> i hear that shuttleworth recomended re-placing gtk with qt
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: I don't think it's exactly dead, but it might be heading that way
<LaserJock> porting all of Gnome and GTK apps to Qt would just be horrendous
<Ahmuck> perhaps, but in couple of years will there be a gnome?
<LaserJock> not sure, not sure
<Ahmuck> though i do hate kde4
<LaserJock> hopefully at the very least, Gnome's knowledge won't die out
<LaserJock> they can make a very usable desktop
<nubae> LaserJock: yeah send it on...
<LaserJock> nubae: ok
<nubae> what else edubuntuish u think I can get on doing?
<nubae> I was thinking some artwork related stuff if there is any
<nubae> but maybe there are more important techie things to do
<LaserJock> nubae: mind if I tweak it just a bit, we should just list the source packages, lksctp-tools, erlang, and grep-dctrl
<nubae> yeah go ahead
<Ahmuck> btw, LaserJock the article was a good one
<Ahmuck> i think were going to try to teach hugin and scribus here
<LaserJock> I've had a bugger of a time with scribus
<LaserJock> well, it was *sort* of my fault
<LaserJock> because I did a poster using scribus-ng
<LaserJock> but scribus and scribus-ng use incompatible file formats
<Ahmuck> ouch
<LaserJock> and now scribus-ng is broken
<LaserJock> so I have a presentation that I can't open anywhere
<Ahmuck> scribus-ng is the bleeding edge iirc
<LaserJock> s/presentation/poster/
<Ahmuck> i've stuck with scribus.  i had the same problem
<Ahmuck> did a lug poster/presentation
<Ahmuck> in scribus-ng
<Ahmuck> kdenlive 0.6 --> 7.x has the same problem
<LaserJock> bummer
<LaserJock> nubae: ok, I sent it to ubuntu-devel instead of ubuntu-motu, broader audience
<LaserJock> nubae: hehe, we're getting some sparks in #ubuntu-devel :-)
<LaserJock> nubae: do you know if we can use any jabber server or does it have to be ejabberd
<LaserJock> ?
<nubae> must be ejabberd
<nubae> ejabberd is maintained by the collabra guys
<nubae> so it has quite some commercial support behind it
<nubae> From what I've been told (and I'm no erlang expert) it is the most scalable and stable solution out there
<LaserJock> right, but we've got some pretty big issues
<LaserJock> I just got an email back from the Ubuntu Security guy
<LaserJock> he'd need to do a pretty extensive code review
<LaserJock> also wants to know about ejabberd's update and patching policies
<nubae> yeah I can see the mail
<nubae> well, should I dig some of that up then?
<LaserJock> why must it be ejabberd?
<LaserJock> I would think that any jabber server should work
<nubae> because it is cross platform, fault tolerant clusterable, modular and scales like a bith
<nubae> bitch
<nubae> I don't know of any alternatives
<LaserJock> ok, we don't care about cross platform
<nubae> there is a good reason olpc chose ejabberd as its xmpp server
<LaserJock> sure, I realize that
<nubae> its written in Erlang for the scalability part, so thats been quite methodical, being that Erlang is not exactly simple
<LaserJock> but we've got somewhat different constraints so we should take a look at the whole picture
<nubae> ejabberd - An XMPP server written in Erlang which claims to be quite scalable.Â  Erlang is the language created decades ago by Ericcson to power their telephone switches.Â  It has many features that make it well suited for XMPP servers.Â  ejabberd has been around and active since early 2005, and is supported officially by Process One.Â  It also has a growing developer community.Â  Jabber.org switched from jabberd to ejabberd some 
<LaserJock> right, I realize that
<LaserJock> I just want us to be sure before launching into an expedition :-)
<nubae> sure of what?
<LaserJock> sure that ejabberd is what we want to shoot for
<LaserJock> basically we're realistically going to get one shot for Jaunty at this
<nubae> well lets look at the other options... there is the original jabberd
<nubae> which obviously isn't that great, since jabber.org actually switched to ejabberd
<LaserJock> right
<nubae> then there is jabberd2, which is now totally unmaintained
<nubae> and then there are the slow java beasts  tigase and openfire
<LaserJock> people in #ubuntu-devel were going from ejabberd to jabberd2
<LaserJock> a couple anyway
<nubae> well good for them... they obviously haven't researched it compared to ejabberd
<nubae> the big problem is latency
<LaserJock> I think they have other issues
<nubae> and we need the fastest responding server out there... all the others have a latency of 3x longer
<nubae> well, I'm talking about collaboration
<nubae> not messaging
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> ok, so we've got rationale for using ejabberd then :-)
<nubae> yeah, jabber2 has memory leaks too
<LaserJock> I just didn't want to go the hard way if an easier route got us to about the same place
<nubae> and thats a big issue with xmpp servers
<nubae> imagine 100s of people collaborating
<nubae> memory leaks, even small ones, would end up bringing the server down and requiring a restart continously
<nubae> just compare the sites and developer communities
<nubae> ejabberd seems much more supported and professional
<LaserJock> right, you don't have to convince me
<LaserJock> the issue is trying to get it into Main
<nubae> right, just giving u ammo for convincing whoever it is that still needs it
<LaserJock> so we need two things 1) the upstream questions kees asked about 2) an erlang person to do a code review
<nubae> a ubuntu person I take it?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> who'd know about security issues
<nubae> I wonder how many people know erlang...
<nubae> it reads quite nicely though
<LaserJock> you could reply to kees privately and ask him if he has any suggestions
<nubae> I guess morgs might have more knowledge on this
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> well, I need to run
<LaserJock> I *gotta* get something done on the dissertation today or I'm toast :-)
<nubae> g luck
<Lns> nubae: is all this ejabberd stuff about getting sugar into *buntu/edu cd?
<Ahmuck> as i understand it i can hook up a printer to one of the thin clients and the rest of the thin clients can use that printer?
<alkisg> !info ltsp-client-core
<ubottu> ltsp-client-core (source: ltsp): LTSP client environment. In component main, is extra. Version 5.1.29-0ubuntu3 (intrepid), package size 73 kB, installed size 348 kB
<nubae> Lns: it is for collaboration in general
<nubae> empathy, inkscape, abiword, etc all use it to collaborate and share
<nubae> + it does file transfers, video and audio conferencing
<nubae> directory style management of users
<nubae> ejabberd is the underlying comms that lets all that happen
<nubae> but yes its also the heart of sugar
<Ahmuck> i asked about scribus, but was told no on collaboration
<Ahmuck> in truth, edubuntu could push *untu and linux in general into a multi-user environment
<nubae> yah indeed, thats why I'm so interested in collaboration
<Ahmuck> ok.  so i was under the impression i could connect a printer to a thin client and the server would know and allow any other thin client to print to that printer
<nubae> yes u can
<nubae> using jetpipe
<Ahmuck> jetpipe? link for reading?
<Ahmuck> k, so "sudo aptitude isntall jetpipe" and then rebuild the thin client again?
<Lns> Ahmuck: its a bit more than that unless it got easier from ibex
<Lns> look at upstream doc. on lts.conf options for tc local printing
<Lns> !doc
<ubottu> documentation is to be found at http://help.ubuntu.com and http://wiki.ubuntu.com - General linux documentation: http://www.tldp.org - http://rute.2038bug.com
<Lns> err...hmm.
<Lns> http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
<Lns> Ahmuck: ^^
<Lns> So what's this talk about gnome / gtk going away? is qt really THAT superior that people will just flock to it now that its lgpl?
<Lns> i find it hard to fathom
<LaserJock> well, I don't think it's quite like that
<LaserJock> but it makes it quite a bit more attractive to people who lean that way
<LaserJock> Qt is a lot more cross-platform, and is business-friendly
<Lns> what was the reasoning behind (finally) adapting to a less restrictive license?
<LaserJock> well, Nokia bought Trolltech not too long ago, maybe it's a part of "new management"
<Lns> aaaah
<Lns> hmm...i have mixed feelings on that one
<Lns> i <3 Nokia UIs... but...they're still a huge company. I guess if they continue down the road of using OSS style licensing, they might just have a fighting chance in the corporate world of supporting open source =)
<Lns> I just hope Gnome/gtk doesnt go away because i think its much superior to kde in many ways...or even using qt for gnome...think of the implications of that
<LaserJock> along with doing LGPL they also made some statements about opening up development more to the community
<Ahmuck> Lns: part of the reason Qt didn't get used as much is because of linking against it.  now you can link away and use commercially
<Ahmuck> gtk won't go away, gramps is written in gtk
<Lns> For some reason i just dont like qt styles..maybe i havent seen the right ones but theyre all just to windows like. I like gnome looking so much different.
<Ahmuck> Nokia wants products developed on Qt i suspect
<LaserJock> Lns: I know what you mean, but there's some nice clearlooks styles that aren't too bad in KDE4
<Ahmuck> Nokia could take qt private, rather than oss, however in thier license transfer trolltech made sure if they did all previous version of qt have to be released under the BSD license
<Lns> all PREVIOUS versions, eh? so a fork basically
<Lns> that would make things a bit more complex
<Ahmuck> if they took it private
<Lns> right
<Ahmuck> which won't happen
<Lns> ever?
<alkisg> That was part of the KDE / qt deal a long time ago...
<Ahmuck> i like that corporate sponsers are putting a lot of oss software out there, virtual box from sun, etc
<Ahmuck> no if we could just get adobe to go along :)
<Lns> im a very skeptical, for some reason novell/m$ deal comes to mind. I guess im just paranoid.
<Lns> Ahmuck: they're coming around, alebit very slowly..
<Lns> Ahmuck: Yes. It's eerily becoming the norm to start sharing human knowledge lately. Very refreshing to those of us that have thought that way all along. :)
<Ahmuck> i agree
<Ahmuck> the problem is how does one still make a living doing so
<Ahmuck> anyhow, so i use checkinstall to create debs i can use in my *untu
<Ahmuck> which allows me svn stable builds of certian packages that have more features
<Ahmuck> i assume that it's more complicated with motu
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> don't mention you used checkinstall in #ubuntu-motu ;-)
<Ahmuck> rofl
<Ahmuck> they don't like checkinstall huh
<Ahmuck> it works great for me
<LaserJock> no, they don't like checkinstall
<Ahmuck> if they would only come up with a motu-install then us grumpy people could create nice packages
<LaserJock> it'd be like me handing you a .exe ;-p
<Ahmuck> any reason why?
<Ahmuck> ah
<LaserJock> well, the reason is that it doesn't create source packages
<LaserJock> MOTU don't work with .debs, they work with source packages
 * Ahmuck really thinks ubuntu needs to look at a good packager for other people besides motu
<LaserJock> dude, been there, done that
<Ahmuck> motu or the argument?
<LaserJock> the reason Debian/Ubuntu is so solid is because of it's package management
<LaserJock> it's package management is solid largely due to it's package format and it's policy
<LaserJock> you *can* make a .deb other ways like checkinstall, alien, etc.
<Ahmuck> well, can't disagree there
<LaserJock> and for some things it will work just fine
<LaserJock> but there is a lot of packaging that you simply can't automate
<LaserJock> you gotta learn it, it's an art
<Ahmuck> u were motu ?
<LaserJock> I have been for ~ 3 years
<Ahmuck> *shrugs*.  i use checkinstall for my own hugin, anki, and gramps
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> like I said, some things it will work just fine on
<LaserJock> but we strongly encourage people to not distribute the .debs made from it
<LaserJock> and it's essentially useless in terms of packaging for the Ubuntu archives because we don't deal with .debs
<Ahmuck> he he, i post them on my website
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: well, then we need to get you all MOTUized ;-)
<Ahmuck> i need a mentor :)
#edubuntu 2009-01-15
<nubae> LaserJock: I just installed Quanta... 202mb of dependencies!
<LaserJock> yeah, sounds about right, KDE 3 stuff
<Ahmuck> http://www.tatteredmoons.org/hugin_svn.html
<Ahmuck> :)
 * Ahmuck needs to edit the wiki a bit more L/
<Ahmuck> :/
<LaserJock> dgroos: heah!
<dgroos> LaserJock: Howdy do!
<LaserJock> dgroos: I wrote a blog post about our discussion: http://laserjock.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/why-we-need-edubuntu-to-succeed/
<dgroos> I took your advise about posting to the list (as you obviously know) and got some good answers.
<dgroos> Yesss!  I've had an RSS feed to your blog since I found it a few days back so I read it while I was at school today.  Thanks and i second and third your thoughts...
<dgroos> Also, thanks for your plug.  It's quite heartening to hear from so many people--I got about 40 hits from your reference :-)
<LaserJock> dgroos: good, I was hoping we could send some stuff your way
<dgroos> gets me psyched to do better about updating progress on the blog but there is only so much time BUT communication is important...
<LaserJock> yeah, I'll be really interested to see how the project progresses
<dgroos> I just went back to your site and saw there were now 9 comments!--just 4 the last time I saw.  I'm reading them and will post a comment, then get back here to try to understand the diverse ideas people came up with.
<dgroos> OK, so I've got a few new questions now...
<dgroos> LaserJock: What are the implications of the 3 methods suggested on your blog?  I do believe in low impact.
<dgroos> Also, there were some nice responses to my post to the user-list, but I wasn't able to figure out how to post a response to them--probably a web page but I could only find the archive--help anyone?
<dgroos> Finally, I've got a printer issue where I can't add a network printer--very frustrating!  I've got a bunch of screen shots of various configuration screens and error messages but it doesn't seem like they fit on irc.  How is this sharing of info done?  Is there anyone who could help me on this?
<LaserJock> dgroos: are you subscribed to the edubuntu-users mailing list then?
<dgroos> Yes--by digest
<LaserJock> hmm, digests are kinda annoying that way
<LaserJock> if you just get the individual messages you can just reply tot he list
<dgroos> I see-so I need to change my subscription--got it.  Thanks.
<LaserJock> dgroos: I would, it makes it much easier
<LaserJock> dgroos: as far as the methods for locking down apps
<LaserJock> having some sort of app that would manage the group permissions of the apps could possibly work
<LaserJock> it would be a blacklist system where most of the apps would be available
<LaserJock> I don't want to be modifying everything, it's kinda of unpredictable what will happen
<LaserJock> I think anytime the applications are updated the permissions will be reset as well
<dgroos> changed subscription away from digest.
<dgroos> So, are you saying that Would could change the group permissions of Firefox to say, "level2" so than only people who were in that group would have permission to access it?
<dgroos> Bad typo there...
<LaserJock> well, since multiple levels probably need access
<LaserJock> I would make a firefox group
<dgroos> "Are you saying that one could change..."
<LaserJock> and add people from the levels that are allowed to use Firefox to that group
<LaserJock> the PATH is a list of directories in which the computer looks for applications
<LaserJock> so if I type "firefox" in a terminal it goes looking for it in the PATH directories
<dgroos> for example /home/dgroos/Desktop?
<LaserJock> but I agree with Frank that it's using a flathead for a phillips screw
<LaserJock> yeah, in Linux most applications are found in /usr/bin/
<LaserJock> the problem with PATH is that we'd have to figure out a way to do it selectively
<LaserJock> and I don't think it'd be that easy
<dgroos> Hmmm, thinking minimalisticly,  the key application is Firefox. really, that would get me 80% of the way if there were some way to control who can access Firefox and who can't.
<LaserJock> yeah, I think a simple blacklist might be minimally invasive
<dgroos> is it simple (read: could I set it up?)?
<LaserJock> well, we'd probably want to write a program/script to do it
<LaserJock> but if you say wanted to do it just for Firefox it wouldn't be all that hard to do, it's just manual labor right now to arrange something like that
<dgroos> What would be involved?  what manual labor?
<LaserJock> first you need to change the permissions of Firefox, something like sudo chmod 750 /usr/bin/firefox
<dgroos> I could do that...
<dgroos> disallowing 'everyone' access, that make sense
<LaserJock> then you'd want to create a group, say firefox-perm: sudo groupadd firefox-perm
<dgroos> 'k
<LaserJock> now you make the group ownership of firefox be firefox-perm: sudo chown root:firefox-perm /usr/bin/firefox
<LaserJock> so that means that the root user and anybody in the firefox-perm group can execute firefox
<LaserJock> then you could then go to System->Administration->Users and Groups and go to the Groups tab, find firefox-perm, and then you can add/remove people from the group
<dgroos> That easy?
<LaserJock> that's the "off the top of my head" version
<dgroos> As a work around, I could do this for firefox and a limited number of apps--yes labor intensive but I'm kinda desperate to get things up and running.
<dgroos> And, I liked MRathburn and Jordan E. idea about trying to get the Sabayon project back on track as a longer term goal...
<LaserJock> dgroos: right, sbalneav and I are going to have a brainstorming/bug squashing session tonight to see if we can't get it working
<dgroos> :-)
<LaserJock> although sabayon doesn't specifically let you prohibit apps I don't think
<LaserJock> it'll certainly handle menu changes, etc. but I think we'd still need to implement some sort of permission-tweaking to actually prevent execution
<dgroos> thanks LaserJock andsbalneav, I wish I could provide at least moral support tonight but the hour when i turn into a pumpkin is arriving.
<LaserJock> heh
<dgroos> Maybe I'll hold off on the firefox chown stuff for a couple of days--there are still a couple of other issues, both physical and network before going live for all students and see how your reviving of sabayon is going--let me know if I can help!!!
<dgroos> Have a good eve all!
<dgroos> and
<dgroos> Thanks, LaserJock.
<LaserJock> no problemo
<Baby> hi there :)
<LaserJock> heah
<LaserJock> Debian Jr. is a Debian Pure Blend, correct?
<Baby> yup, exactly
<LaserJock> so do you create an installable CD/DVD?
<Baby> I adopted it a couple of months ago, because SynrG is quite busy with Debian Live and Debian eee
<LaserJock> yeah
<Baby> I plan to create installable media, yes
<Baby> I'm gonna rename it to Debian Kids, though
<Baby> I don't like how "Debian Jr" sounds :)
<LaserJock> for Edubuntu we've  dropped installation media
<LaserJock> we have an "addon' CD
<Baby> yup, I read it :)
<LaserJock> and we're working on sets of "application bundles" which are just metapackages
<Baby> I mean, I'm giving a talk next month on both Debian and Ubuntu and it's usage for NGOs and international cooperation
<Baby> and I'm talking about edubuntu among other things :)
<LaserJock> so we have two primary desktop metapackages, edubuntu-desktop (gnome-based) and edubuntu-desktop-kde (KDE4 based)
<LaserJock> awesome!
<Baby> yup, it's gonna be the 1st talk I give promoting BOTH Debian and Ubuntu in the same talk :)
<LaserJock> from the KDE 4 side I'm interested in how far we can push things like plasmoids and containers for education
<Baby> my plan is to develop 3 types of desktop: 6-8 yo, 8-10 yo, 10-14 yo
<Baby> aha
<LaserJock> we have 4, preschool, primary, secondary, tertiary
<Baby> I plan to develop the whole desktop in KDE
<LaserJock> right, we're trying to stay fairly neutral
<LaserJock> in the sense of focusing on the educational bit rather than the entire OS
<Baby> both Linex and Lliurex (Debian derivatives) have a lot of experience designing desktopts for kids, they're educational distributions, and I wanted to get ideas both from them and from the sugar project
<Baby> yup I understand
<LaserJock> yeah, we're trying to get Sugar going here
<Baby> I'm not targeting educational contents, that's the task of Debian Edu/Skolelinux :)
<LaserJock> sure
<Baby> even though I'm personally interested in educational contents too, btw, but not in the Debian Kids project
<LaserJock> but there is some overlap on the lower end of "Education" and "Kids" :-)
<Baby> there definitely is, and some overlap with the Games Team too
<LaserJock> yeah
<Baby> and with my OpenRating project
<LaserJock> that's something we haven't tapped into much yet
<Baby> :)
 * Baby is founder and one of the admins of the Debian/Ubuntu Games Team
<LaserJock> there's some "disagreement" in the education community I think on how far to take games
<LaserJock> ah, cool
<Baby> what kind of disagreement?
<Baby> as to which ones can be used for educational purposes?
<LaserJock> kind of yeah
<Baby> you might want to have a look at http://wiki.debian.org/OpenRating , btw
<LaserJock> like if it's not strictly educational it shouldn't be installed at school, etc.
<Baby> yup, I understand
<Baby> but real teachers do use games in the classroom
<LaserJock> oh heah, that's an awesome idea! re: openrating
<Baby> I have a huge demand of some games both for Linex and Lliurex
<Baby> I have the taxonomy almost finished
<Baby> been working for a lot of months on it
<Baby> http://www.miriamruiz.es/slides/debian_open_rating_system_2008.pdf
<Baby> It's partly in Spanish, but you might get the idea
<Baby> nop, sorry, it's almost totally in Spanish
<Baby> http://www.miriamruiz.es/openrating/tags.php
<Baby> this one os better :)
<Baby> it uses DebTags as technological basis, and I plan to embed its usage in the game selection tool GoPlay!
<LaserJock> that is pretty thorough, wow
<Baby> http://www.miriamruiz.es/weblog/?p=101   -> quite old blog entry but there is a screenshot
<Baby> http://www.miriamruiz.es/img/goplay-1.0_screenshot.png
<Baby> I'm working in the next generation, GoFind! , not restricted to games
<Baby> and, well, I plan to get rid of FLTK as a widget toolkit in the newer one :)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> it'd be nice to sort of get Debian Jr./Debian Edu/Ubuntu sort of more together on some standards type things like that
<LaserJock> there's a lot of common interest and even quite a bit of common technology
<Baby> yup, I know
<Baby> I'll be really willing to move it to a more group-wise development, it would lead to much better results :)
<Baby> currently it's in the DebTags SVN repository
<LaserJock> are you subscribed to either edubuntu-devel or edubuntu-users?
<Baby> both, yup
<Baby> I've been there for a lot of time :)
<LaserJock> would you mind sending an email to either/both about the openrating stuff and GoPlay! ?
<Baby> I think I'm onlu in -users, how strange
<Baby> yup of course! :)
<LaserJock> and also if you feel like it an email intro of Debian Kids ;-)
<Baby> I will, it'll be nice to start cooperating in this too :)))
<LaserJock> and what you're looking at doing in the future
<Baby> quite a long intro :)
<LaserJock> certainly working together with KDE would be excellent
<Baby> yup, aaron said he was willing to cooperate and interested :)
<Baby> and regarding games, we have veen able to start an inter-distro project for cooperating
<Baby> including Fedora, SuSE, BSDs, some upstreams,....
<LaserJock> oh good
<Baby> it's already working, we're using freedesktop servers
<LaserJock> it would be interesting to do more with education on freedesktop
<Baby> I think it would be better to send different mails instead of a single big one :P
<Baby> for replies :)
<Baby> yup, it could be done for education too
<LaserJock> things like user management, lockdown, etc. are big issues and  I think it would be helpful to get some broad discussion and perhaps standards
<Baby> we're trying to do that for games :)
<LaserJock> one could imagine for instance a Education or Younger User user interface guide
<LaserJock> sort of like the Gnome HIG but more centered around younger users
<Baby> I want to get the knowhow from Linex and Lliurex, as well as as much feedback as I can from kids
<Baby> yup
<Baby> that would be awesome
<LaserJock> Baby: ok, I've sent a post to edubuntu about aseigo's post
<LaserJock> and now I need to go to bed (2:30am almost here)
<Baby> goodnight!!!
<LaserJock> Baby: I'd be interested in how the freedesktop thing works for you
<Baby> I'll try to write some mails to the list later :)
<Baby> 11:30am here (Spain) :)
<Baby> yup :)
<Baby> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/games
<LaserJock> ah, Spain, I really liked it there
<Baby> :)
<LaserJock> I've only been once for the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Sevilla
<Baby> yup, I know which one :)
<Baby> I was really about to go, but finally didn't
<LaserJock> it was the best one I've been to
<LaserJock> in terms of location
<Baby> yup, Sevilla is a nice city :)
<morgs> LaserJock: nubae: ejabberd was the only XMPP server that worked at least to some extent with a shared roster, which is what we have been using in Sugar for collaboration. This means you see everyone on the server, which works for small numbers of users, but doesn't scale beyond +-100 users. For Sugar 0.84 we have a better system for managing the people you can see on the server, and I think ejabberd is still the only supported server but it should be
<morgs> come possible to use other servers too.
<morgs> Collabora doesn't directly support ejabberd, but they have some minimal erlang and have patched it a bit.
<morgs> The OLPC patches are in debian and intrepid's ejabberd package, but you need to enable the shared roster in the ejabberd.cfg to use it right now for Sugar.
<Ahmuck> gooood morning
<Lns> good day all!
<LaserJock> hi Lns
<Lns> LaserJock: maybe we should modify the topic here to reflect our new initiatives? :)
<Lns> hey =)
<Lns> Also, just an idea, I think edubuntu and LTSP projects should be involved with GreenPeace to promote green TC computing in schools - they are a huge org and might be able to help us out.
<Lns> Im a "member" with GP and they sent me this - if interested, something to look at and ponder how we might be able to collaborate.. http://usactions.greenpeace.org/action/start/230/?session_action=reset
<sbalneav> Afternoon all
 * Lns waves to sbalneav 
<Lns> it's 11:09 here, you're jumping the gun ;)
<LaserJock> sbalneav!
<sbalneav> Hey LaserJock!
<sbalneav> Sorry, by the time I got back from Music last night, and kicked off a jaunty install, I was bagged.
<LaserJock> np
<sbalneav> I'm going to start poking at Sabayon this afternoon
<sbalneav> Reading through the source.
<Lns> sbalneav: you are AWESOME!
<Lns> I'm here to test if necessary
<sbalneav> Dude, it'll be at LEAST a couple of days before I even begin issuing patches.  Sabayons... non-trivial :)
<LaserJock> to say the least
<LaserJock> they really put a lot of work into the thing
<LaserJock> I really hate to see it DOA in Ubuntu
<Lns> sbalneav: oh yeah, im just saying. Im not expecting any timeframe here, lol
<LaserJock> man I'm glad I'm hosting my blog on wordpress.com
<LaserJock> it's not a total slashdot effect but my last blog post is on linuxtoday, planet KDE, and digg
<LaserJock> I think maybe we struck a cord
<LaserJock> sbalneav, stgraber: you guys might be interested in bdmurray's announcement of per/package bug reporting guidelines
<sbalneav> Where?
<LaserJock> on ubuntu-devel
<LaserJock> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-January/027206.html
<Lns> LaserJock: Congrats on the exposure!! That is so awesome. We need this momentum. =)
<LaserJock> sbalneav: so are you working on sabayon in hardy, intrepid, or jaunty?
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Jaunty, I suppose, for the moment, then we'll backport.
<Ahmuck> morning LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi Ahmuck
<LaserJock> sbalneav: have you tried running it on Jaunty?
<Ahmuck> is there a good linux primer?  i need a one for a student who is helping inthe lab
<Lns> Ahmuck: what's the current knowledge of linux by the student? how old is he/she?
<Ahmuck> Junior, no knowledge at all
<Ahmuck> 15
<Lns> hmm.. maybe try the ubuntu tutorials, but if he's helping you out with admin stuff, maybe not
<Ahmuck> adding users, passwd reset, etc.
<Ahmuck> clearing lp0
<Lns> Ahmuck: im sure googling will give you lots of options, might want to see for yourself what would be the best fit..
<Ahmuck> i'm doing that.  i recall someone suggested something, i have it in a bookmark somewhere ... *sigh*
<calimer-> LaserJock how hard do you think it would be for me, a total newb, to package sandbox?
<calimer-> and would I be able to do it on my mandrake distro?
<calimer-> I don't mind putting work into it, just an estimation of the time requirement involved
<LaserJock> calimer-: for Jaunty, pretty tough I think, and from mandrake it will be particularly difficult
<calimer-> I finished teaching my evening class for a bit
<calimer-> jaunty is the new edubuntu release right?
<LaserJock> you've got a fairly non-standard build system so it might take some tweaking
<LaserJock> and then there's all the copyright considerations
<calimer-> well the debian free version should be pretty well set on that I would hope
<LaserJock> yes, Jaunty is the codename for 9.04 (released in April)
<LaserJock> well, but you need to document everything, which can take a little time
<LaserJock> not a lot though
<calimer-> okay, hopefully I can get it done
<LaserJock> a basic package might not take too long
<calimer-> getting it in edubuntu is a dream come true, not to sound corny
<LaserJock> getting one that'll make it into the archives is what will take more time
<calimer-> but I mean the whole goal is to get it to kids and educational facilities
<calimer-> what does that mean exactly?
<calimer-> and I should really update my  nix drive to ubuntu, haha
<LaserJock> well, hacking together something that'll get it installed would be fairly fast
<LaserJock> but one that will pass inspection for inclusion into the archives can take some time
<LaserJock> you'll want to convert the .zip to a .tar.gz
<LaserJock> and rip out all the .exe and .dll files
<LaserJock> getting rid of the bin folders would probably be a good idea
<calimer-> okay
<calimer-> that should be pretty easy actually
<calimer-> all the windows related stuff is in one place
<calimer-> well, in their own places I should say
<calimer-> rip out mac related stuff too?
<calimer-> sorry for the delay I was responding to question
<LaserJock> the important thing is to take out all the binaries
<LaserJock> the os x stuff isn't particularly important as long as it isn't taking up a lot of  space
<LaserJock> calimer-: what is needed to build this thing? fromdos I know
<calimer-> makefile is what builds the binary
<calimer-> oh as far as libraries?
<calimer-> sdl I think
<LaserJock> glut?
<calimer-> going to check, I'm on windows actually :\
<calimer-> bad me  I know but I had to install a windows partition for my doom 3 project a while back
<calimer-> unfortunately d3radiant didn't work on nix
<calimer-> SDL and SDL_Image and SDL_Mixer development libraries
<calimer-> I think that is it
<calimer-> it would be great if I could fit in updating the codebase and getting those new textures in
<calimer-> but maybe I should do that after I have the version already in place ready to go
<LaserJock> calimer-: alright, here goes the first build attempt :-)
<calimer-> btw I'm going to be changing up the "main" versions license as well to be a bit more friendly
<calimer-> probably almost exactly like the license for Lite
<calimer-> it is super old anyway, just never had a chance to play with it for a bit
<LaserJock> is this normal? fromdos: File read/write error while converting src/enet/docs.
<calimer-> probably, I think it might need permissions
<calimer-> btw http://kids.platinumarts.net/wiki/index.php?title=Compiling_the_source_code
<LaserJock> round 2
<LaserJock> wahoo, we're building this time
<calimer-> :d
<calimer-> er :D
 * Lns has reverted to offering pizzas to those who can fix bugs he is affected by - such as https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/19033
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 19033 in firefox "systemwide default startup homepage ignored" [Medium,Confirmed]
<alkisg> Lns, do you ship overseas? :P
<Lns> alkisg: I will order a pizza in your vicinity and have it delivered.
<Lns> Im SO serious about this.
<alkisg> Heh... I might give it a try this weekend, then! :)
<Lns> cool!
 * Lns declares pizza the official currency of open source software
 * alkisg is going to see if he can find anything in the fridge...
<Lns> damn i need some lunch too.
<LaserJock> calimer: where does make install send stuff?
<LaserJock> Lns: dude, that's awesome! ;-)
<Lns> LaserJock: ?
<calimer> it should be in the main folder
<LaserJock> Lns: the pizza currency
<Lns> oh, hehe
<calimer> the top folder I mean
<Lns> hey, if it works...
<LaserJock> calimer: oh
<calimer> wait no in /bin I'm sorry
<calimer> /bin/sandbox_client_i686
<LaserJock> so we only need sandbox_client and sandbox_server?
<calimer> I believe so
<calimer> if you mean from the /bin folder
<LaserJock> I've got:
<LaserJock> cp sauer_client ../bin_unix/native_client
<LaserJock> cp sauer_server ../bin_unix/native_server
<LaserJock> when I run make install
<LaserJock> those are what I want
<LaserJock> ?
<calimer> yeah
<calimer> I'm surprised they didn't go in bin
<calimer> maybe hirato just forgot to update the makefile
<calimer> you used the makefile in the /src directory right?
<calimer> not in the mod/
<LaserJock> yeah
<calimer> sandbox 2.3 or is it the Lite version?
<calimer> ah it is the lite version probably
<calimer> okay now it makes sense to me
<LaserJock> lite
<calimer> yeah that is how it is setup in there
<calimer> so we can just toast /bin all together
<calimer> I still need to e-mail those motu people as you suggested
<LaserJock> calimer: I think I finally got it
<calimer> awesome, so what does that mean?
<calimer> as in for the packaging part
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> wb Baby
<Baby> hi! :)
<calimer> yey!
<calimer> LaserJock she is also interested in helping package sandbox
<Baby> I've just discovered PPA :)
<calimer> what is ppa?
<Baby> it has kept me entertained half the afternoon :P
<LaserJock> Baby: heh
<LaserJock> calimer: it's a part of Launchpad that allows you to upload package into a person Ubuntu repository
<Baby> PPA is the personal packages archive in launchpad
<calimer> this is my current thinking
<calimer> make sure we can get this version in edubuntu at the very least
<Baby> https://launchpad.net/~miry/+archive :)
<calimer> and if we have enough time I'd love to update the codebase and the textures
<Baby> I think we can :)
<calimer> there is this great site I found called openfootage.net
<calimer> that has "debian free" textures
<calimer> and also the "non debian free" version in would be good but might be more complicated since it has more content
<calimer> btw Baby I'm thinking about using the Lite license with the "non debian free" version as well
<Baby> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Games/Resources
<calimer> wow that is good stuff
<calimer> check out openfootage.net sometime too if you're interested
<calimer> some great textures on there
<calimer> bookmarked :)
<Baby> the freedesktop games team is a cross-distro team we made
<LaserJock> calimer: ok, so I've got the thing to install
<Baby> there's people from almost all Linux and BSD distros
<LaserJock> calimer: but it wants texture files
<Baby> http://users.alioth.debian.org/~miriam/sandbox/
<Baby> I had this started but it was quite long ago
<calimer> LaserJock it is typically executed from a script from the main folder
<calimer> the top folder
<calimer> sandbox_unix
<calimer> :D
<calimer> so Baby what does that mean is left?
<calimer> and anything I can help with?
<LaserJock> calimer: hmm, this thing needs more work
<LaserJock> your builds system is totally different than how we do things
#edubuntu 2009-01-16
<calimer> that doesn't sound good
<Baby> nah, I've packaged much more difficult games :)
<calimer> so with what is on your site, what else needs to be done?
<LaserJock> no, I got it
<LaserJock> I just edited a game!! ;-)
<calimer> :D
<calimer> you should see the kids on it, they go nuts
<Baby> :))))))))
<calimer> if you want I have some pictures of stuff made by kids
<Baby> we have to upload enet before, btw
<calimer> I'll try to update the codebase and such this weekend
<Baby> lets fix and upload enet
<calimer> so enet is the last piece of the puzzle?
<calimer> and thanks so much both of you :D
<Baby> enet 1.2 is the stable
<Baby> thanks to you :)
<calimer> the idea that this could happen wants to make me jump around
<Baby> I'm trying to find out if goneri finally packaged enet
<calimer> imagine how many more kids would have access, it is crazzyy
<calimer> I gotta relax
<Baby> :)))
<calimer> :D
<LaserJock> calimer: I sent you an email
<calimer> okay
<LaserJock> but that's sort of all I'm going to be able to work on it
<calimer> did you see Baby's link too?
<calimer> http://users.alioth.debian.org/~miriam/sandbox/
<LaserJock> well, there you go, forget my email then ;-)
<Baby> I'll try to update it
<Baby> I'm trying to dinf out if enet 1.2 is in debian or not
<calimer> but is it about set then LaserJock besides the enet stuff?
<Baby> but my connection si crap today
<calimer> I can try to search too
<LaserJock> calimer: I dont' know, I'd have to look at Baby's package
<calimer> http://patch-tracking.debian.net/patch/debianonly/view/enet/1.2-1
<LaserJock> my guess is whatever Baby says is right ;-)
<calimer> that what you are looking for baby?
<calimer> maybe this more specifically
<calimer> http://patch-tracking.debian.net/package/enet/1.2-1
<Baby> packages.debian.org
<Baby> I need it ti be in proper debian :)
<calimer> okay
<Baby> I'm still trying to open that web page :(
<Baby> finally!!!
<Baby> it's in experimental
<calimer> wow guess it is going slow
<Baby> http://packages.debian.org/experimental/libenet-dev
<calimer> hopefully that isn't too bad
<LaserJock> calimer: if Baby (and whoever else) can get sandboxlite into Debian by Valentines Day we can get it into Jaunty
<calimer> awesome
<calimer> we might not even really need enet
<Baby> there might be a problem for getting it into sid
<calimer> that is for the networking
<Baby> getting it into experimental could be enough?
<calimer> if people want to coop edit and such they will need enet
<calimer> which is quite cool, especially for a teacher with students
<calimer> but then they could just dl 2.3 I guess
<Baby> i seem to remember that enet 1.1 wasn't enough
<LaserJock> Baby: yeah, I think experimental would be enough for us to get it into Ubuntu
<Baby> but 1,2 won't get into sid until Lenny release
<Baby> cool :)
<Baby> is there a difference between the code in lite and sandbox?
<Baby> not in the data, in the code
<calimer> yes
<Baby> hmm
<calimer> lite is a much older codebase
<Baby> pity
<calimer> but I am going to try to update the lite codebase, and data this weekend, or maybe even tonight
<Baby> cool
<Baby> my plan would be
<Baby> to have a single sandbox-bin package, and then two data packages, sandbox-lite and sandbox-data
<calimer> okay
<calimer> it should hopefully be a quick thing
<Baby> did I already send you my patches, btw?
<calimer> just what you had on your webpage I think
<Baby> I'll have to add the descriptions, and all that stuff
<Baby> the package still builds :)
<calimer> WOOo
<calimer> so how much work is left really?
<calimer> I'm trying to understand it all
<calimer> I can probably get the code stuff done tonight
<LaserJock> Baby: would sandbox-data be in non-free?
<calimer> and then perhaps the new textures, if they end up working out okay, over the weekend
<Baby> yup LaserJock
<calimer> the lite version of the data should be okay in free though right?
<Baby> but at least sandbox-lite would be in main
<calimer> :D
<Baby> and sandbox itself too
<LaserJock> Baby: would you separate the source package?
<Baby> otherwise it would have to go into contrib
<Baby> yup
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> I was just trying to think of how it would work in Ubuntu
<Baby> it cannot contain non free stuff in main
<Baby> not even the source
<LaserJock> if they're separate source packages we can easily drop -data in Multiverse and the rest in Universe
<LaserJock> Baby: right ok that's consistent with how we do it, good
<Baby> I plan to generate -bin and -lite from main, and have -data in a different package in non-free
<LaserJock> perfect
<Baby> and then either depend o -lite | -data   or make -lite and -data provide some common name
<Baby> oki, package works
<LaserJock> you could do -lite and -data-nonfree and have them both provide -data
<Baby> now all the polish
<Baby> yup, something like that
<Baby> or -full
<Baby> -lite and -full
<LaserJock> yeah, that sounds good
<calimer> so it sounds like it has a real chance to make it in
<Baby> I'll upload my patches somewhere
<calimer> we can put all that stuff on my site if you want
<calimer> whatever we need hosted I can put on the site
<Baby> http://users.alioth.debian.org/~miriam/sandbox/patches/
<calimer> should I put the other files you have on your apache on there too?
<Baby> have a look at them if you want in case that something can be included in your side :)
<Baby> I'll upload a newer version in a moment
<Baby> I want to update the descriptions
<calimer> I wish I had a way to give you upload access to a folder
<calimer> but I can only do it so it gives access to all my sites
<calimer> which are you updating?
<calimer> and want all sandbox stuff from the apache on the site?
<calimer> might as well
<Baby> just one sec
<Baby> LaserJock: if I upload enet to my PPA and later sandbox depending on it, will it get enet from there?
<LaserJock> yep
<Baby> great
<Baby> I'll upload it to PPA then XD
<Baby> now that I've learnt ;)
<LaserJock> Baby: you can even make one PPA dependent on another
<Baby> that goes a bit beyond my knowledge right now ;)
<LaserJock> although that makes it more complicated for users
<Baby> I use jaunty as distro in changelog?
<LaserJock> you can do any supported Ubuntu release
<Baby> but the idea is including it in jaunty, isn't it?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> but it's harder to get testing for it
<Baby> cool, then jaunty will be :)
<calimer> I'm so glad you guys know what you are doing
<Baby> :)
<LaserJock> if you want to get packages for Ubuntu users to use you'd want to do intrepid
<LaserJock> but for your own testing Jaunty will be good
<LaserJock> calimer: that's why we get paid the big bucks ;-)
<Baby> can I upload it to both in PPA?
<calimer> hopefully it is more than I get paid :D
<LaserJock> Baby: you need to use different versions
<Baby> that can be done :)
<LaserJock> Baby: I *think* you can upload to one and the copy in the UI
<Baby> I'll add a ~intrepid1 to the one in intrepid
<LaserJock> but I tend to just do it the old fashioned way
<LaserJock> we would normally do -0~intrepid0~ppa1 perhaps
<LaserJock> it's not a big deal
<Baby> how long :)
<LaserJock> I think they like people to use ~ppaX to signify it's from a ppa
<LaserJock> you have no idea
<Baby> I'm doing -0miry1 :)
<LaserJock> we can usually double or triple the length of Debian versions
<LaserJock> part of being a derivative
<Baby> in maemo they do something like that
<Baby> and one of the packages broke the synaptic-like program they use for a friend of mine
<Baby> too long version name, so GUI went mad :P
<LaserJock> Baby: this is a version of Flash we had: 10.0.1.218+10.0.0.525ubuntu1~hardy1+really9.0.124.0ubuntu2
<Baby> wowwwwwww
<LaserJock> and I even know what that means ;-)
<Baby> 10.0.1.218+10.0.0.525ubuntu1~hardy1+really9.0.124.0ubuntu2+reallyreally+iswearit1+true
<Baby> XD
<LaserJock> heh
<calimer> btw I really like this article
<calimer> http://www.gameculture.com/node/597
<LaserJock> Baby: here's a PPA version 4:4.1.96-0ubuntu1~intrepid1~ppa2
<LaserJock> Baby: so they do -0ubuntu1~intrepid1~ppaX
<Baby> quite crazy, isn't it?
<LaserJock> well, it ensures that any official release will override it
<LaserJock> whether it be the main archive or -updates, -security, -backports
<Baby> calimer:  :)
<calimer> :D
<calimer> I think I will brb and work on updating this codebase
<Baby> I've used this description:
<Baby> Description: cooperative 3D game design tool for kids - lite game data
<Baby>  Platinum Arts Sandbox is a game design tool based on the Cube 2 engine
<Baby>  that allows users to quickly and easily create and edit their own worlds
<Baby>  while playing the game, even cooperatively.
<Baby> LaserJock: yup, I know the rationale behaind it :)
<calimer> I have been using 3D game maker more recently
<calimer> as in like the last few days
<calimer> whatever gets it the most hits
<Baby> :)
<calimer> what do you think sounds better, game maker or game design tool?
<calimer> and I'm working on updating this source right now :D
<Baby> hmm
<Baby> probably game maker sounds better
<calimer> cooperative 3D Game Design Tool for kids and adults
<Baby> game design tool sounds too abstract, like doing it on paper but never implementing it :)
<calimer> btw I have an updated thing I lik emore
<calimer> let me get it
<Baby> design as in different than implementation
<Baby> :)
<calimer> Platinum Arts Sandbox is an open source easy to use standalone 3D Game Maker and 3D Game Design program currently being used in many schools throughout the world that allows kids and adults to create their own video games, worlds, levels, adventures and quests, even cooperatively! The goal is to make it accessible to kids but also powerful enough for full game projects. With a simple click and roll of a mouse wheel users can modif
<calimer> y the world however they want. In the words of Margaret, a nine year old Sandbox whiz I babysit for, âPress Edit and go fulfill your dreams!â. Now features new game modes such as sidescroller, machinima, kartmode, RPG, and more!
<Baby> wow, you write even longer sentences than I!
<Baby> :)
<calimer> that is my brief version :D
<Baby> XD
<Baby> Platinum Arts Sandbox is an open source tool to make 3D games in an easy way :)
<Baby> s/to make/to design and make/
<calimer> whatever gets em coming :D
<Baby> ;)
<calimer> almost ready to test this code update
<Baby> :)
<Baby> my web doesn't work anymore
<calimer> D:
<Baby> maybe something with my ISP or the router
<calimer> what is going on with it?
<Baby> simply times out
<Baby> every page
<calimer> sometimes for me just turning off the power of my router and then on again helps
<Baby> yup, I'll do that, but I'll go to sleep too then
<Baby> can you tell me if in https://launchpad.net/~miry/+archiventhe enet package built properly?
<Baby> it should have a green tick
<Baby> or a moving circle if it's still compiling
<calimer> it says error not found
<Baby> oh
<calimer> is the end of that link right?
<Baby> sorre
<Baby> https://launchpad.net/~miry/+archive
<calimer> hmm I forgot I need to use 2.3 code
<calimer> not what is in the svn
<Baby> :)
<Baby> as soon as enet is compilet I'll upload sandbox and go to sleep
<calimer> :D
<calimer> so when you wake up tomorrow I should have the source updated
<calimer> I'll send you an e-mail with the new package
<Baby> cool :)
<calimer> I think I got everything, now gotta compile and test
<calimer> there is only one thing I am hmm about
<calimer> there is a new sidescroller mode where you can jump on an enemies head and make it fall over and disappear
<calimer> though lite won't have the models to show the enemies or the player anyway
<calimer> should I just keep it in anyway?
<calimer> since it is part of the "non debian free" version
<nothingman> hi, all
<nothingman> updating my image so I can log in from my school's laptops
<nothingman> wish me luck!
<nothingman> OK, so suddenly a package has replaced my dhcpd.conf, so I found and replaced it with a backup that looks exactly like my original, and dhcp3-server still won't start
<nothingman> but I should have a better-working image now! :-P
<nothingman> is there a way to make a generic user -- one that's the same on any terminal, has few enough priv's, and can run firefox without it complaining the second time it's run?
<nubae> hmm, I thought that was already fixed
<nubae> what release u running?
<nothingman> Edubuntu Hardy Heron, 8.04
<nothingman> actually, this is edubuntu installed on top of ubuntu
<nothingman> I mean, it was a desktop machine and then I wanted to use it as my server at my school
<nothingman> and using your fatclient script gives a GPG error for medibuntu
<nothingman> not sure why
<nothingman> but it seems to depend on packages on that server
<nothingman> or maybe I just have a list of crap servers in my sources.list
<nubae> yeah because there is no gpg key add command in the script... u need to force it to use unsigned packages
<nothingman> ah
<nothingman> just with -f or --force?
<nothingman> got it
<nothingman> --allow-unauthenticated
<nubae> thats the one
<nubae> --accept-unsigned-packages
<nubae> maybe allow-authenticated is the same
<nothingman> is that from the ltsp-build-client?
<nothingman> I think I got it
<nothingman> I edited your script
<nubae> yeah
<mib_dp49tl> I am trying to install edubuntu on a netbook with the edubuntu iso file mounted.  How do I launch the add-on?
<mib_dp49tl> hello? anyone available?
<sbalneav> mib_dp49tl: Not sure.
<mib_dp49tl> ok, thanks!
<sbalneav> I always just burn the cd and insert mrt
<sbalneav> argh internet slowing down.
<mib_dp49tl> yeah, me too.  I just don't have a cd on this little netbook.
<nubae> add-on cd should just autostart
<nubae> u can put it on a usb stick, or mount the iso
<nubae> if you've just downloaded it
<mib_dp49tl> I have copied the contents to a usb drive, but it will not autostart.
<mib_dp49tl> I have launched the cdromupgrade script, but it only does the ubuntu upgrade
<nubae> http://www.ubuntugeek.com/mount-and-unmout-iso-images-without-burning-them.html
<mib_dp49tl> I have mounted the iso using mount command, but it won't autostart the edubuntu install.  I am downloading the iso again, just in case I have a corrupt copy.
<nubae> strange, and u clicked on the mounted disk?
<mib_dp49tl> I am new to linux... but here is how I mounted it:  mount edubuntu.iso /cdrom -t iso9660 -o loop
<nubae> and u clicked on cdrom to see the contents and launch the autorun?
<nubae> u probably shouldn't mount it at /cdrom
<mib_dp49tl> ok, I'll try to mount it at another point.
<mib_dp49tl> I mounted it at /iso.  I am able to see the contents of the folder, but it does not autorun.  I think that I may just get out my ide-usb adapter and hook up a cdrom drive.
<LaserJock> highvoltage: yeah, I've been dugg all right. Right now #2 in linux/unix
<LaserJock> if I would have known people were going to read it that much I would have been more careful about how I wrote it :(
<highvoltage> LaserJock: awesome. glad to see that your site is handling it nicely too.
<highvoltage> LaserJock: if you did, it probably wouldn't have gotten dugg
<nubae> :-)
<LaserJock> highvoltage: that's why I'm on wordpress.com
<highvoltage> LaserJock: aaah
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I got dugg once before, ~30k hits in one day
<highvoltage> I changed hosting to a dedicated server when I got dugg, and then I never got dugg since :)
<LaserJock> the interesting thing about digg is it gives you hits for a long time afterword
<highvoltage> yeah
<LaserJock> I still get quite a few from the original one like 1.5 years ago
<LaserJock> I wish I was more careful though, after reading the digg comments
<highvoltage> you can't, it's impossible
<highvoltage> there's always someone who will show you something that you could've done better
<LaserJock> well, another post I think might be in order
<highvoltage> a good blog entry now is better than a better one tomorrow
<LaserJock> because I want to talk about new devices and getting software to kids *before* school
<LaserJock> a lot of people say "school doesn't matter they have Windows at home"
<LaserJock> but I think we're also going to get those people via netbooks and newer devices like the classmate
<nubae> LaserJock: have u looked at salasaga?
<LaserJock> no, I haven't
<nubae> there were some questions about a tool to create learning objects
<nubae> rather than using edu apps
<nubae> http://www.salasaga.org/ seems to be the answer
<highvoltage> nubae: like plasmoids?
<LaserJock> I looked at it briefly when you mentioned it before but I have tried it or anything
<nubae> nto sure what plasmoids is/are
<LaserJock> it's kinda hard to explain
<LaserJock> but basically KDE widgets
<nubae> ah right, yeah now I know what u mean
<LaserJock> there's some really big potential there i think for educators
<nubae> these are .swf files that are like edu tutorials with some interactive parts
<LaserJock> and aseigo at least seems really eager to help
<nubae> yeah I saw the last couple days, a lot of activity in here
<LaserJock> the trick is to turn excitement into progress
<nubae> well, we definitly have people wanting to contribute now
<nubae> seems like the edubuntu community is growing again
<nubae> I'll be at Fossdem in February, and I'll try promoting it a bit there too
<Ahmuck> i have a question.  i know there is a progarm that will create flash type of presentations in linux.  however recently i've been struggling with digging through hundreds of programs to find that one jewel.  whereas as a windows user, i would simple go to adobe and get a flash creator and then do it htere.  another example is screen recording, etc.
<highvoltage> fossdem sounds like it's going to be awesome
<nubae> will u be there?
<highvoltage> nope
<nubae> Ahmuck: salasaga
<Ahmuck> is there a set of packages that would allow gui tutorials without having to dig and dig to find the right one?
<highvoltage> maybe I'll go next year.
<nubae> yeah, its close to where I'm at... 59â¬
<Ahmuck> ah, yes, that is the one i was thinking about ealier.  does  edubuntu list these?
<nubae> Ahmuck: its being considered
<nubae> but its still alpha software
<Ahmuck> is it possible that edubuntu could package catagories of the best / educator friendly software?
<nubae> I don't know if it would even belong in universe app bundle
<nubae> Ahmuck: are u on the edubuntu-devel list?
<nubae> we had a discussion on there about that
<Ahmuck> nubae: nope
<Ahmuck> i tend to avoid devel lists
<nubae> the edubuntu one is quite tame...
<Ahmuck> k, ill look at it
<Ahmuck> u have a link
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: don't avoid us, we don't bite :-)
 * Ahmuck looks at other dev scars and considers
<Ahmuck> k, i'm going to start making video tutorials
<LaserJock> excellent
<Ahmuck> point me to a link to sign up and i'll sign up on the dev list on a wait and see option
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: the -devel list pretty much like the -users list except we talk about more stuff that we talk about in here
<nubae> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel
<Ahmuck> heh heh, i forget when you nick change it's across all channels
 * Ahmuck picked batch mode
<LaserJock> dont!
<LaserJock> I really really wish I could get rid of that option :(
<LaserJock> the digests are only good if you never ever ever plan on replying to a message
<highvoltage> yeah
<LaserJock> and since -devel has less traffic than -users it's not much of a benefit
<LaserJock> I gotta run
<LaserJock> but make sure to digg: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Why_we_need_Edubuntu_to_succeed
<LaserJock> it even made Boycott Novell ;-)
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<Ahmuck> http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9667184
<nubae> I just think those kind of reports are totally misleading
<nubae> If this girl doesn't take the time to go review or read up about ubuntu, especially considering she's never heard of it before, she shouldn't be using it
<nubae> if she bought a new dvd recorder or oven or whatever, she'd have to look at the damn manual...
<nubae> why does she think it should be different for an even more advanced piece of equipment
<ogra> she didnt
<ogra> she didnt notice she bought ubuntu, she just picked the cheapest offer ... when she had ubuntu on the laptop she bought, she called dell to get windows
<ogra> dell told her she will be fine with ubuntu
<nubae> I mean after she got the laptop
<nubae> dell convinced her it was a good choice
<ogra> right
<ogra> which was wrong, they talked her into it
<nubae> yeah, but thats sales and marketing... people also talk vista users into getting that piece of crap
<ogra> when she figured it wasnt the case and called dell again they said they wouldnt give her windows
<nubae> part of the game, even though its totally immoral and wrong :-)
<ogra> which caused her to go to the press
<nubae> but she chose to spend no time to get to know her system
<ogra> she didnt want to
<ogra> and thats the point
<nubae> right, but she agreed with dell to keep ubuntu
<ogra> but found out she doesnt get along with it
<ogra> and got told off the second time
<nubae> yeah that was wrong... but she should still taken at least an hour to get to know her system
<ogra> she took several days before she called dell and asked for windows
<nubae> I've installed ubuntu for many beginners, that never heard of it before... and when they took the time, they all saw that it was possible to open .docs, and that it was possible to get on the internet easily
<Ahmuck> i've found it's easier to introduce people to linux via linux only apps.  those apps that are show stopers
<Ahmuck> hugin, evolution, etc
<ogra> nubae, but she didnt have anyone showing it to her, was desperate and just wanted to get what she knows ...
<nubae> yes, in several days she didn't see openoffice openned .docs...
<nubae> My grandmother would figure that out in a couple hours
<ogra> my mom does ... but she is open to it
<nubae> right
<ogra> this girl wasnt but dell forced her into it
<ogra> and its her godgiven right to go to the press with that
<nubae> yeah, I'm just annoyed at the reporter misleading
<ogra> watch the show, the article puts it in a worse light than the show actually is
<sbalneav> ogra: You know, Ubuntu could have a real public relations coup here
<Lns> I think that whole thing is lame - people have to learn new interfaces all the time with M$ Office (ribbon bar?), Vista, etc...what's the diff here?
<nubae> Lns: none, I agree with u
<ogra> sbalneav, it already does ... sadly not the most positive one
<sbalneav> Shuttleworth should phone her *personally*, and point her how to save her documents in Word
<sbalneav> Imagine the press:
<nubae> lol
<Lns> totally! the community comes to the rescue.
<sbalneav> "Hey, has Bill Gates ever phoned YOU and helped you?"
<sbalneav> This could be totally turned around.
<sbalneav> Into a triumph
<sbalneav> I'm making a note here:
<sbalneav> HUGE SUCCESS!
<Lns> any publicity is good publicity..its all in perception
<Lns> just think of how many people will hear the word ubuntu now'
<Lns> and get interested
<ogra> not many
<Ahmuck> interesting, activepen is nothing more than a tablet, which we have
<ogra> its either people who already know it and read the article or watched the show online
<ogra> or its a bunch of local people in wisconsin
<ogra> so yes, the popularity rises ... but thats a local tv station
<ogra> wont rise much :)
<Ahmuck> actually, this type of press is not good press
<Ahmuck> there is a war beggining with linux/windows
<Lns> ah..well i heard about it on slashdot, but again thats kinda the choir
<Ahmuck> in the media.  first the teacher that told her student's it was illegal to use and pass out oss software and now this
<ogra> Lns, but slashdotters *know* ubuntu already
<Lns> Ahmuck: war is good business. Just ask GWB ;)
<Lns> ogra: exactly, hence the choir
<Ahmuck> lol, depends on what side your on
<Lns> Ahmuck: we're on the good side! =)
<sbalneav> I read a report that someone was going to help her get the internet online, and show her how to save her documents.
<Ahmuck> just reviewed activepen software, and whiteboading.  so i assume that there is nothing in linux that will  connect?
<Ahmuck> verizon is going to help her get online with linux - this is good, as it will help linux users in the long run
<Ahmuck> and the university is going to help her with documents, this is good for linux as well, because it forces the university to adjust to the needs of the students
<Ahmuck> even us linux students
<Lns> wow, thats nice they're going to help w/linux and not shaft her..
<Ahmuck> verizon or the uni?
<Ahmuck> or both
<Lns> its all exposure for linux now, which is good. Ahmuck - verizon
<sbalneav> 'Sides, LOTS of people buy winderz boxes everyday, and can't get connected with 'em, or can;t figure out how to do something, I fail to see how someome managed to even blow this one up into the story it became.
<Lns> We have a good potential with that exposure with Vista being so crappy in people's eyes
<Ahmuck> http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9682258&nav=menu1362_2
<Lns> and seeing that lots of ppl are coming in to the rescue for her
<Lns> people see the community behind linux and they will like that
<Ahmuck> Ubuntu fans read our story and linked to it on Linux fan message boards and other technology blogs.  By Thursday morning, several major technology websites featured WKOW's article on their front pages.
<Ahmuck> That's also when the comments - many of them angry, rude, and hateful - started pouring in.
<Ahmuck> and there is the problem
<Lns> just dont feed the trolls..they'll go find something else later, as they did before...
<ogra> and there were rude comments ...
<Ahmuck> The young woman also contacted 27 News to report she's being harassed on her Facebook account by Ubuntu users.
<ogra> really rude
<Lns> ack..well that sucks
<ogra> but they made up probably 10%
<Ahmuck> it appears that dell is contacting her.  it may be that they are going to do an exchange to windows ?
<ogra> the text doesnt cover what the news guy says in the show; that they recieved also a lot of help offers
<sbalneav> And as for idiot FanBoi/Grlz spamming her blog, that's just stupid people being... well, stupid.
<Lns> We need to remember that the media will only expose what will raise ppl's eyebrows
<Lns> that will be mostly bad stuff. We need to counter that
<Lns> Especially since M$ has a big part of the media, they can use it as leverage
<Lns> smear campaigns, etc
<Lns> which this could just be the start of
<ogra> Lns, why do we have a link to suse documentation on the ubuntu ltsp page now ?
<mib_dp49tl> Hey guys, I am still having issues install edubuntu on a Dell Mini 9.  I have ubuntu 8.10 installed, and I have extracted the contents of the edubuntu iso onto my usb stick, but I do not get an autorun.
<Lns> ogra: I was going to put the other distro ltsp pages on there for reference..is that a bad thing?
<ogra> well, it will confuse
<Lns> how so?
<ogra> specifically since suse doesnt use ltsp but kiwi
<ogra> so none of our commands is valid for them, none of their commands is valid for us
<Lns> maybe i can make a subsection of the links or something, "other LTSP related projects" ?
<ogra> hmm
<Lns> not a big deal either way, just wanted to be all inclusive
 * ogra is still pretty upset about the suse fork of ltsp
<sbalneav> mib_dp49tl: You didn't burn the cd?
<mib_dp49tl> I don't have a cd drive for the netbook.
<ogra> fedora at least goes with upstream so the commands rughly apply
<ogra> but suse is totally off
<sbalneav> ogra: mib_dp49tl's got the .iso file, how does he install edubuntu again?  I can't remember the magic.
<ogra> loop mount it ?
<Lns> I guess I can take it out, I was just thinking it would be nice to have so people can explore the "big picture" - not that im trying to get ppl to go with other distros, but i mean, everyone has a choice..was just putting the information out there
<mib_dp49tl> I did that, but it will not autorun.
<ogra> or make an USB key out of the iso might work
<mib_dp49tl> I am not sure what to execute
<ogra> system->administration->"create usb startup disk"
<Lns> ogra: was just trying to go with the concept of "ubuntu" :)
<ogra> Lns, well, suse refuses to go with that concept
<sbalneav> ogra: No, he's got ubuntu installed, and he's just wanting to add on the Edubuntu disk.
<ogra> sbalneav, right
<sbalneav> It's something under the package manager, isn't it?
<ogra> you can somehow point synaptic to a cd drive indeed
<Lns> ogra: i know.. but its still thin client/friends related. Personally i think we should have MS terminal services links on there too, if for nothing else to show that we are trying to include everything..that way we can be seen as a central hub type of place, and people wont think we're trying to be the only thing out there
<mib_dp49tl> I need to create an image for 100 of these!!
<ogra> well, then put an "EVIL FORKS" section in and put it there
<Lns> ogra: lol
<Lns> i dont think that would be a good idea
<ogra> it would also be pretty much alone in that section
<ogra> but thats what they did
<Lns> ogra: your perspective, not everyone's
<Lns> we need to be unbiased
<ogra> yes, and i'm bitter about my code being abused like that
<ogra> but i've written GPL code so i cant complain
<Lns> ogra: and I totally understand your point of view..and personally i agree with you, suse/novell can kiss my ass..I just dont want to try and convince others of my personal opinions
<ogra> i mailed a good bunch of suse people and had a lot of conversations including offering them help to DTRT ... but they are not wanting to work with upstream
<ogra> so i cant change it
<Lns> that sucks
<sbalneav> mib_dp49tl: I'll see if I can figure it out for you, one sec.
<mib_dp49tl> thanks!
<Lns> but that's their choice.. again, i was only trying to link to related projects so people can have the information, if they want it
<ogra> so you have to maintain strange kiwi config files that trash your system setup and have to call *special* kiwi commands to execute them
<ogra> yes, i understand what you aim to do, i wouldnt complain if you would link fedoras, gentoos, debians or even altlinux's pages
<sbalneav> mib_dp49tl: I don't happen to have a cd image here, what 's in the root of the cd?
<ogra> sbalneav, should be a standard package archive
<Lns> ogra: well debians is already on there..i was planning on getting the rest of them up there right now
<ogra> its 1.5 years ago that i even touched an edubuntu CD last though ...
<mib_dp49tl> cdromupgrade, md5sum.txt, README.diskdefines, ubuntu
<Lns> ogra: how about a subsection titled "Other thin-client related projects"
<ogra> well, do what you want ...
<ogra> as you mentioned, its my personal opinion and my personal bitterness as well
<sbalneav> I think cdromupgrade's what you run
<ogra> i know that warren feels the same though
<mib_dp49tl> when I run cdromupgrade, it tells me that my ubuntu is up to date.
<ogra> opne synaptic, go to edit->add cdrom
<ogra> or run apt-cdrom add and install edubuntu-desktop on the commandline
<ogra> (you must make sure the cd iso is mounted under /cdrom indeed)
<sbalneav> Ah
<sbalneav> then that's the magic :)
<sbalneav> mib_dp49tl: make sure the cdrom iso's mounted under /cdrom
<Ahmuck> with reguards to the whiteboard, a wacom bamboo tablet and a standard gimp page would work easlity enough.  however you would have to save each page
<Ahmuck> part of the problem is, 8.04.  wacom bamboo tablets would need to be supported out of box for educators on ubuntu
 * ogra would go the WIImote path ... but i have seen a live demo of that recently and indeed you need a projector
<mib_dp49tl> ok, i'll try...Thanks again.
<mib_dp49tl> It is now installing... Thanks for your help
<alkisg> !info edubuntu-desktop
<ubottu> edubuntu-desktop (source: edubuntu-meta): edubuntu desktop system. In component main, is optional. Version 1.62 (intrepid), package size 17 kB, installed size 44 kB
<alkisg> I'm interested in packaging some windows educational applications into .debs, that depend on wine, install in /opt and have .desktop files, extension associations, /usr/bin/appname launchers etc, so that they behave like linux applications. If these applications are closed source, but I have redistribution license for them, would they be eligible for the universe component?
<alkisg> (maybe LaserJock is the best person for this question, so allow me to ask it again): I'm interested in packaging some windows educational applications into .debs, that depend on wine, install in /opt and have .desktop files, extension associations, /usr/bin/appname launchers etc, so that they behave like linux applications. If these applications are closed source, but I have redistribution license for them, would they be eligible for the universe componen
<LaserJock> they wouldn't be fore Universe
<LaserJock> Universe is still "Free"
<alkisg> Ah, sorry, multiverse then?
<LaserJock> Multiverse is the non-free component
<LaserJock> historically the MOTU have not liked having Windows binaries in the archive at all
<LaserJock> they are concerned about minimizing the number of things we have 0 control over in terms of bugs and security
<alkisg> So the only way to enable teachers to have easy to install windows educational applications, is to have a personal repository, right?
<LaserJock> hmm
<alkisg> (not a PPA, on my personal site I mean - PPAs are for open source apps only...)
<LaserJock> well, can you download the windows app?
<LaserJock> I wonder if you could create a package that downloads the .exe and sets it up in Wine
<alkisg> Maybe I could make an installer like the msttcorefonts installer
<LaserJock> right, exactly
<alkisg> Would this be acceptable?
<LaserJock> msttcorefonts is easy though because it's just extracting out the fonts and putting them in the system
<alkisg> (for multiverse, I mean...)
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how easy it would be to do it on a full applications
<LaserJock> I really can't say for sure
<LaserJock> certainly they would me more accepting of that approach as opposed to having the full .exe in our archive
<alkisg> For full windows applications, uniextractor works wonders :)
<LaserJock> I might suggest you talking with Scott Ritchie, I think his IRC nick is YoKozar or something
<LaserJock> he is our Wine maintainer
<alkisg> In #ubuntu-motu?
<LaserJock> he might be there
<LaserJock> you could ask #ubuntu-motu anyway
<alkisg> OK, thanks LaserJock
<LaserJock> but be warned, you'll probably get some "no way!" comments :-)
<LaserJock> I know we've had arguments over it in the past
<alkisg> Well, I already have a personal repository in my site, so it would be easier for me to just put them there, I just wanted to make them more generally available...
<LaserJock> but Scott Ritchie is really interested in making Wine more usable for people so he would be a good resource
<LaserJock> bdoin: you still around? how's gcompris going?
<Ahmuck> doesn't wine-doors do this now?
<Ahmuck> alkisg: doesn't wine-doors do this now?
<bdoin> LaserJock: hi
<alkisg> Ahmuck: not exactly, it installs per user, I'd like to install for all users
<bdoin> gcompris does its best to survive in this cruel world !
<Ahmuck> ah, with individual .user files
<alkisg> So I'd make a .deb file out of each application
<Ahmuck> in the individusl user directory for configuration?
<LaserJock> bdoin: I was wondering if you were getting any feedback from people using gcompris on netbooks?
<Ahmuck> alkisg: any chance an app could be written that one could automate the process?
<bdoin> I have been reported that it comes pre-installed on asus eeepc
<bdoin> the windows version
<LaserJock> bdoin: really!?
<bdoin> sorry, the linux version
<LaserJock> bdoin: that's fantastic, congrats on that
<alkisg> Ahmuck: not really - you'd need to rework wine for that
<bdoin> thanks
<LaserJock> bdoin: you were working on moving to a new canvas or something, right?
<bdoin> yes, I am still on it but its long.
<bdoin> I made a beta recently to show this work but not many people seams to follow it
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> bdoin: do you want people to be testing it a lot more
<LaserJock> bdoin: perhaps we can use a PPA to let Ubuntu users test it out?
<bdoin> not yet, it was more a preview of the ongoing work
<bdoin> a PPA ?
<ball> How do I specify which interface I want LTSP to use?
<alkisg> ball: you mean the dhcp server?
<ball> alkisg: yes, I know that was at least one part of it.  I'm trying to help someone who's trying to roll out Edubuntu at a school
<alkisg> For dhcp, you do: sudo dpkg-reconfigure dhcp3-server
<ball> he's got issues with one of his interfaces and wants to know how to ask Edubuntu to use another.
<alkisg> The rest of the stuff will use whatever NIC is valid for the target IP
<alkisg> So he should have a correct /etc/network/interfaces file...
<ball> I would drive over there and help him, but a) I don't know Linux that well and b) it *way* too cold.
<alkisg> Heh... you could ask for ssh access, and help him remotely
<ball> alkisg: even if he could grant that, I wouldn't feel confident asking because I'm a bit lost when it comes to Linux.  If it were BSD I'd have a clue.
<alkisg> You may also tell him to ask whatever question he has here or in #ltsp...
<ball> Come to think of it, I could set up a test system here.
<LaserJock> bdoin: sorry, a PPA is a Personal Package Archive
<ball> alkisg: I'll see if he's up for that.
<LaserJock> bdoin: it's a Launchpad feature that lets you make your own package repositories
<LaserJock> bdoin: we could, for instance, package up your beta and put it in one of these PPAs which would allow people to apt-get it rather than having to compile it themselves
<bdoin> well thanks, I see but I have enough work like that. I don't want to manage linux packaging unless it is cross distro
<LaserJock> bdoin: well, i was sort thinking we'd do that for you, I wasn't expecting you to do it
<bdoin> It's fine if someone want to take care of that, i'll appreciate
<LaserJock> bdoin: do you have a wiki page for it?
<Ahmuck> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKCrGvShZs&feature=related
<Ahmuck> ok, wow.  we have a projector, and i'm sure i could get 50.00 from the budget.  this is windows, but does this work in linux?
<bdoin> LaserJock: http://gcompris.net/wiki/index.php/Developer's_corner
<LaserJock> bdoin: so you'd want the gcomprixogoo branch packaged, right?
<bdoin> yes, I updated the wiki page to be more precise
<LaserJock> bdoin: well, I think I'll take a stab at it. I'm really busy with school and other Edubuntu stuff so it may take a bit ;-)
<LaserJock> bdoin: it'd be nice to give you some help with testing that out
<bdoin> I plan to have completed in a couple of monthes
<LaserJock> cool
#edubuntu 2009-01-17
<Ahmuck> so i've been looking at this wii remote whiteboard.  i notice there is windows source code, but no linux source code
<Ahmuck> anyone try this with wine?
<Ahmuck> we have a projecter i can set up this evening and try it with
<Ahmuck> well, except i don't have the wii remote
<Ahmuck> :(
<Ahmuck> http://code.google.com/p/infrael/
<Ahmuck> found the whiteboard software
<Ahmuck> for linux
<Ahmuck> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa9xn-xYQQk - any linux software like this?
<Ahmuck> ah, nm
<Ahmuck> phun, and there is a linux version
<Ahmuck> http://www.phunland.com/wiki/Download
<SDuensin> Anybody alive tonight?
<HedgeMage> SDuensin: for some value thereof
<SDuensin> hehe
<SDuensin> I'm trying to install iTALC on an LTSP client.  Seems ica-launcher is never run.
<SDuensin> Do I just need to add ica-launcher to my chroot's rc.local?
<HedgeMage> sorry, I haven't run LTSP in ages... I'm not very good with it
<SDuensin> NP.
<SDuensin> Gonna try the rc thing.  Can't get any more broken.  :-)
<HedgeMage> heh
<SDuensin> Nope.  Nuts.
<HedgeMage> :(
<HedgeMage> Sorry I can't help :(
<HedgeMage> Feel free to get me a small LTSP lab and I will get up to speed ;)
<SDuensin> hehe
<HedgeMage> hi, LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi HedgeMage
<SDuensin> LaserJock, tell me you're an iTALC expert.  :-)
<LaserJock> SDuensin: sorry, no. I haven't used it yet
 * SDuensin thinks the default package for Ubuntu LTSP is borked.
<SDuensin> Then again, nobody says it has to be used with LTSP.
<LaserJock> SDuensin: what?
<SDuensin> The thinclient side of the thing doesn't start.
<SDuensin> Got another idea now.
<LaserJock> it should
<SDuensin> I just added this to my image:
<SDuensin> ln -s /usr/bin/ica-launcher /etc/X11/Xsession.d/98ica-launcher
 * SDuensin thinks ica-launcher is ica-broken
<SDuensin> Oh well.  More arguing tomorrow.
<LaserJock> sbalneav: around?
<faustino333> Hi
<faustino333> Houston i have a problem
<faustino333> i've upgraded from 8.04 to 8.10 and now my thin clients can't login
<faustino333> in the logs i get the following messages
<faustino333> Jan 15 09:43:24 ubuntu-servidor sshd[7888]: Failed password for root from 192.16
<faustino333> 8.0.250 port 38048 ssh2
<faustino333> Jan 15 09:43:24 ubuntu-servidor last message repeated 2 times
<faustino333> Jan 15 09:43:57 ubuntu-servidor sshd[7890]: Invalid user exp from 192.168.0.250
<faustino333> Jan 15 09:43:57 ubuntu-servidor sshd[7890]: Failed none for invalid user exp fro
<faustino333> m 192.168.0.250 port 38049 ssh2
<faustino333> Jan 15 09:43:57 ubuntu-servidor sshd[7890]: Failed password for invalid user exp from 192.168.0.250 port 38049 ssh2
<faustino333> Jan 15 09:43:57 ubuntu-servidor last message repeated 2 times
<faustino333> is it a problem from edubuntu or from ltsp?
<nubae> faustino333: try ltsp-update-sshkeys
<nubae> and rebuild image
<pem725> struggling with openchrome for my clients on ubuntu 8.04.1 and was wondering if anyone could lend a quick hand.
<faustino333> nubae: i've done ltsp-update-sshkeys, ltsp-update-image and ltsp-update-kernel
<faustino333> i've even installed everything again
<nubae> hmmm, from scratch?
<faustino333> no just ltsp
<faustino333> i removed even config files
<nubae> yeah but this is an ssh issue... the user exp exists?
<faustino333> yes
<faustino333> i've created to test if i needed to do anything else
<faustino333> that wasn't made by the update-manager
<faustino333> when i've upgraded from 8.04.1
<faustino333> should i've removed ssh and installed again
<faustino333> ?
<nubae> where are u getting the ssh failed messages?
<nubae> the fact that it says invalid user makes me thing the user wasn't created correctly... try creating anotehr user and login with that
<nubae> but I'm not sure if u are getting that on ldm login, or ssh login or what
<faustino333> it's in the log of the server
<faustino333> i don't know the exact file
<nubae> upon doing what though
<faustino333> i think it was in auth
<nubae> are u trying to login with user exp via ssh?
<faustino333> if i try to login in the thin clients
<faustino333> with any user
<faustino333> it says checking password and after maybe 2 or 3 minutes
<faustino333> i get the error in log
<nubae> ok, that does sound like the ssh-update-keys issue... but lets try something else
<nubae> try setting the permissions for /tmp to 775
<nubae> and for /home too
<faustino333> now i'm not in the server but when i get there i will try that
<faustino333> any other options?
<nubae> ok, sometimes wrong permissions stop u being able to login
<faustino333> but what is strange is that i can login in the server
<faustino333> and not in the TC
<nubae> yeah, thats normal
<nubae> u can also check the .xsession-errors file for a particular user
<nubae> and see if anything shows up there
<faustino333> nobody can login from the TC
<nubae> I know
<nubae> check /home/someuser/.xsession-errors
<nubae> it will tell u what is going on when someone tries to login
<faustino333> ok
<faustino333> i will try that
<LaserJock> morning all
<LaserJock> hi nubae
<nubae> hey there Las
<nubae> ah hes gone
<Ahmuck> *yawn*
<timmytutu> hello
<timmytutu> anybody about?
<sbalneav> hello
<timmytutu> hi there
<timmytutu> I have a few "infrastructure" type questions for moving a school district to more open source tech,,, is this the right place to ask?
<sbalneav> Sure, go ahead
<timmytutu> I'm taking over a school district shortly,,, they (we) have about a dozen schools, all have previously been run independently, as in each school has its own network, purchasing policies, WAN link, etc
<timmytutu> Most have DSL links, two have fiber E10's
<timmytutu> all the desktops are running windows xp
<timmytutu> all the back end kit is open source,,, mostly ubuntu server LTS, different apps like moodle, postfix as email, a radius server for some sort of psuedo centralized user management
<timmytutu> I come from an active directory background, with windows clients, and am used to pervasive desktop control and centralized everything
<timmytutu> In the last few years open source has made inroads into my data centers,,, web site, mssql box, spam filtering, firewall and threat management, etc, but not core services
<timmytutu> I can't seem to find a open source equivalent to active directory for pushing out GPO's to secure desktops,,, is there such a non-microsoft platform?
<Ahmuck> i'm here
<timmytutu> With the understanding that Microsoft won't dissapear overnight on the desktop, but probably we will get one school migrating as a project to edubuntu
<timmytutu> thoughts?
<Ahmuck> LDAP
<sbalneav> Sabayon's available, and LDAP.
<timmytutu> oh yeah, I also want to build our own consolidated network, and get rid of each site link
<Ahmuck> there is intergration with AD available
<timmytutu> we don't have AD
<sbalneav> Sabayon's got some bugs, but we're hopefully going to be working on upstream to fix those.
<timmytutu> I'm just googling that now,,, give me a sec to ask some intelligent questions
<timmytutu> any chance anyone is here from BC in Canada?
<Ahmuck> LDAP is ur answer AD
<sbalneav> Not from BC, but Manitoba.
<sbalneav> Most stuff on a gnome desktop can be enforced by global, mandatory gconf entries.
<timmytutu> a quick look and I come to the conclusion Sabayon is just another distro in its infancy (no insult intended at all)
<sbalneav> Nope
<sbalneav> You're looking at the wrong page.
<LaserJock> oh, you got the wrong thing
<timmytutu> sbalnaev> are you involved with a school district or ministry of education
<timmytutu> can you point me in the right direction?
<sbalneav> Nope, Legal Aid Manitoba.  We run Linux and thin clients there exclusively
<timmytutu> ahh, ok
 * LaserJock dislikes that somebody had to go create a distro with the same name as a Gnome tool :(
<timmytutu> similar background
<sbalneav> http://projects.gnome.org/sabayon/
<timmytutu> thx, looking now
<timmytutu> whats the traffic like on the mailing list?
<LaserJock> timmytutu: on which mailing list?
<timmytutu> sabayon
<LaserJock> well, not a lot presently
<LaserJock> I think the last email was in September or something
<LaserJock> it's in a bit of a lull, but we're hoping to pick things up
<timmytutu> please forgive my open source ignorance,,, but is seems like sabayon is trying to accomplish exactly what the system managability is capable of with GPO's in active directory,,,, does this capability not already exist in major distro's?
<LaserJock> timmytutu: forgive my ignorance but what's a GPO?
<sbalneav> Not knowing what GPO's are, I'm not sure
<timmytutu> group policy object,,, a system setting in active directory to be able, for example, to enforce a wallpaper, or restrict access to a control panel in a microsoft operating system
<timmytutu> it can be assigned to users, groups, or computers
<sbalneav> That's equivalent to gconf settings in Gnome.
<sbalneav> Where you can enforce themes, wallpapers, proxy settings, etc.
<timmytutu> can gconf be administered centrally?
<sbalneav> Per server, yes.
<timmytutu> what about "per domain" (not sure what the linux equivalent naming would be)
<sbalneav> Gconf does not currently support a centralized server model, say with LDAP
<timmytutu> ahh, ok, that answeres that
<sbalneav> So it would be per machine.  So, if you had 15 LTSP servers, each handling 30 users, you'd only have to administer 15 sets of settings.
<sbalneav> With sabayon, you could create the profiles on a central machine, then simply distribute them to the 15.
<timmytutu> I guess then, are there LDAP environments with system management capabilities that would span multiple servers, in a similar fashion to gconf?
<Ahmuck> set up a script that would replicate the settings?
<Ahmuck> load balancing doesn't keep servers in sync?
<sbalneav> timmytutu: No, there are not.
<timmytutu> The staff I am inheriting is not comfortable at the command line at all, and I would consider myself a novice
<timmytutu> so scripting is not an immediate solution
<sbalneav> Although, sabayon DOES has an LDAP interface, currently it's not packaged with Ubuntu's sabayon.
<sbalneav> So you'd need to do some work to get it set up.
<timmytutu> sbalnaev> in your LTSP deployments, how many thin clients can be supported by on decent server (say several 2+ghz cores, 4gb ram, a handful of disks in raid 5), for clients running more or less a full edubuntu environment?
<sbalneav> I'll give you a representative server.
<timmytutu> going to try to shorten my nick...
<timd> I'm now timd
<sbalneav> 2 dual core Xenon 2.5 ghz, with 8 gig of ram, comfortably supports 40 users.
<sbalneav> Full desktop.
<timd> hmmm, not bad
<timd> can ltsp "publish" a single application in a similar fashion to citrix?
<sbalneav> Any application you install on the server is simply available to all users.
<sbalneav> LTSP and citrix are two different technologies.
<timd> and then you would control access to the UI using gconf?
<sbalneav> LTSP is much closer to the idea of the idea of X terminals.
<timd> what kind of disk subsystem on that 40 users terminal server?
<sbalneav> 2 scsi disks, mirrored.  Home directories are NFS mounted from a central server.
<timd> where does no machine (NX) fit into this? I use NX on my home ubuntu box to essentially remote in it over the internet,,, is there a preference over NX or LTSP?
<sbalneav> You wouldn't use NX on a local LTSP setup, usually.  NX conserves network bandwidth, at the expnse of increased CPU usage.
<sbalneav> On a local network, bandwidth with regular X usually isn't a problem.
<timd> ok
<sbalneav> I support 40+ users on simply 2 cheap dlink switches daisy-chained, and it works fine.
<timd> in your org, was there any "vision" to push to open source, or was there some other driver?
<sbalneav> We realized that Microsoft was an unsustainable model for our organization after 1998, and began working on linux desktops shortly after.  We've been running Linux LTSP thin clients since year 2000.
<sbalneav> I have a total of 6 locations around the province, and support 185 users.
<sbalneav> All Ubuntu GNU/Linux and LTSP.
<sbalneav> I have to go shortly.  Any other questions before I go?
<sbalneav> I'll be gone for 1/2 hour or so while I drop my son off at swimming.  I'll be back in a bit.
<timd> thanks very much sbalneav,,, I'm convinced I need to trade in my Microsoft and VMWare tshirts for Penguins and Zen,,,, I just need more time to do research on how to get there :)
<timd> Cheers,
<LaserJock> timd: the edubuntu-users mailing can be lots of help if you're not already subscribed
<sbalneav> Back
<LaserJock> heah sbalneav
<Ahmuck> LaserJock: is it ok to create a ppa on my personal site and call it that?
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: what do you mean?
<Ahmuck> well, i'm building debs for a number of software we use, and the software works well, svn.  so i thought i would create a web page called Ahmucks Personal Package Archive
<Ahmuck> ubuntu compatible
<LaserJock> well, I guess you could, but it might be kind of confusing for us
<LaserJock> I expect a PPA to be on Launchpad :-)
<LaserJock> but there's no reason why you can't put that on your webpage
<Ahmuck> heh, i guess.  i hate wading through tons of red tape just to get good packages out
<LaserJock> just try to remember when you're talking to me to be clear on where it is
<LaserJock> there isn't a lot of red tape on good packages
#edubuntu 2009-01-18
<LaserJock> sbalneav: you might want to have a look at Fedora's patches to sabayon at some point: http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=sabayon
<primary> i just installed edubuntu and I am having trouble with fonts.  in some programs meny text does not appear.  How do I resolve this?
<LaserJock> hi all
<nubae> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi nubae
<nubae> presenting edubuntu to a pedagogical school of Graz tomorrow... they are the ones that decide what to implement in the rest of the country
<LaserJock> cool
<alkisg> Good luck nubae! :)
<nubae> thanks... have either of u tried the wiimote as whiteboard thing under ubuntu?
<alkisg> Not me... don't have a wii....
<nubae> u can buy a controller for 30 â¬
<alkisg> (neither a projector! :))
<nubae> which is all one needs
<nubae> ah :-)
<LaserJock> I don't have much of anything, period :-)
<alkisg> Did you want to show them the wiimote?
<LaserJock> no wii, no projector, no classroom, no students ... ;-)
<nubae> not yet, no, but I thought its a pretty cool gadget to show
<nubae> lol
<nubae> in sugar we have something called classroom presenter
<nubae> where u put up slides and can draw on them collaboratively
<LaserJock> well, I guess I do have students, but no classroom, just a lab
<nubae> its totally something that would pair up with the wiimote thing
<alkisg> ...and maybe 10 remotes, one for each students? :D
<nubae> well u can do 4 light points per remote
<nubae> it works by putting an led in a pen end
<LaserJock> so how exactly does this wiimote thing work?
<alkisg> Hm... nice! So for small classrooms, 2-3 wiimotes are enough...
<LaserJock> you hook the wiimote to a computer which then goes via projector to a witeboard?
<nubae> well, it gets put behing the projector
<nubae> behind
<nubae> and it picks up light sources by bouncing infrared off it
<nubae> so u use leds to do that
<nubae> because the wii can do 4 remotes at once, u can use 4 concurrent pointers
<nubae> so then u basically open any program that has ability to draw
<nubae> and voila
<nubae> no need for the whiteboard
<nubae> thats the expensive part
<LaserJock> I guess I'm still not getting it
<LaserJock> so it ends up projecting what you're drawing in the program?
<alkisg> LaserJock: there are some nice videos in youtube that demonstrate it...
<nubae> a projector projects teh image
<alkisg> E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKCrGvShZs
<nubae> the infra red wii remote picks up the led as a point in space and draws
<nubae> yeah u'll get it when u see it
<nubae> but for presenting sugar or edubuntu, it would be very neat
<nubae> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:Cpxo_beta1_ss_nav.jpg
<alkisg> nubae, is sugar still in development, or it's been halted?
<nubae> no its in development... sugarlabs has taken over everything
<nubae> olpc is no longer involved really... or maybe a little on the hardware side
<nubae> but like edubuntu, its a volunteer project now
<nubae> education just isn't important enough
<nubae> weapons first...
<LaserJock> ok, one question though, how does the wiimote attach to the computer?
<alkisg> That doesn't matter much, if it has something to offer, then people are going to work on it...
<nubae> usb I believe
<LaserJock> nubae: coolio
 * LaserJock tries to think of what he'd do with a wiimote whiteboard
<nubae> aren't u involved with chemistry classes or something like that?
<LaserJock> kinda yeah
<LaserJock> but, in the lab
<LaserJock> we don't really use whiteboards much
<nubae> well imagine this scenario... u draw the molecules and formulas and all that on the board
<LaserJock> ok
<nubae> and then it gets automatically sent as a screenshot to all your students
<nubae> they then save that in their journal or whatever
<nubae> I can see lots of applications to the whiteboard
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> but I don't see how that gains me a lot
<LaserJock> right now I have a blackboard and my students have pens :-)
<nubae> teh blackboard cant really be distributed to every student afterwards
<LaserJock> that's why they have pens
<nubae> but then the better note takers have an advantage
<nubae> like this they can concentrate on what is going on at the board
<LaserJock> hmm
<nubae> and u can go at whatever pace u like
<LaserJock> but aren't we trying to get better note taking skills?
<nubae> I'm sure they get enough of that in the classes where that is warranted
<nubae> like English, foreign languages, etc
<nubae> Learning should be made easier, no?
<LaserJock> well, yes and no
<LaserJock> yes, learning what you're supposed to learn should be as easy as possible
<LaserJock> but  you should still learn what you need to learn
<LaserJock> and as a chemist still one of the biggest things I have to teach students is how to write and take notes
<nubae> dotn u think u get that better being collaborative in teh classroom?
<nubae> asking students to take over whatever u are teaching on the board...
<nubae> or even from their computer terminal
<nubae> there is no need really for pens... I just dont see that... every kid with a laptop is the way forward
<LaserJock> well, frankly I think they just need to pay attention and try a little
<nubae> in a controlled environment of course
<LaserJock> for the stuff I do I really don't think laptops are going to replace pens any time soon
<LaserJock> no doubt in some future time
<nubae> my kids always paid attention when they knew they'd have to come up to the board and write something themselves
<nubae> fear
<LaserJock> presently I don't have time for that
<LaserJock> I write, they write, I ask questions, we move on :-)
<LaserJock> but my "teaching" situation is not the norm for sure
<LaserJock> my environment is a laboratory and my "teaching" is mostly "hands-on"
<nubae> ah right...
<LaserJock> I'd like to get some netbooks to try out with a couple things
<LaserJock> so far the students hate the computers
<nubae> I'm sure u are not short of ideas...
<LaserJock> they're rather do anything but use the computer
<LaserJock> there are 2 computer-based labs that I think the wiimote thing might be cool
<nubae> I think for maths it would be great
<LaserJock> right now we just all go up to the computer lab and all 20+ students just struggle through a set of instructions in their little cubicle-like space
<nubae> yeah, the non collaborative experience
<LaserJock> I end up running around for 4 hrs helping people with the same problems
<LaserJock> and I don't exactly teach them anything other than computers suck :-)
<nubae> yeah I know that one too... I had the same showing how to use program X or program Y, until we started having collaborative sessions
<nubae> via italc or projector
<LaserJock> but one thing is that chemistry is *very* visual
<LaserJock> it's the most geometric and visual of the natural/physical sciences
<LaserJock> IMO at least
<LaserJock> so one of the struggles is always trying to represent 3D via a whiteboard :-)
<nubae> well.... one thing that is VERY cool with that technology
<nubae> is being able to move 2 or 3 points at once
<LaserJock> yeah
<nubae> so u can rotate a 3d object in space very easily
<nubae> zoom in, zoom out
<LaserJock> I can see how this stuff could be cool
<LaserJock> I just know that it would be a real struggle to get it going and to get people to use it
<nubae> well, using it, I dont see so hard, making it work flawlessly, harder
<LaserJock> I think most of the teachers would just turn it off and write on a whiteboard
<LaserJock> we'd have to do quite a bit of training, which is something we're not very good at
<LaserJock> trying to take a chemist and turn them into a teacher is hard enough, getting thing proficient with a computer is going to be tough :-)
<nubae> yeah, guess so
<LaserJock> it's getting the teachers who teach the teachers on board that's the trick :-)
<nubae> right... thats what I'm doing now too
<LaserJock> but maybe I can work on some demo's
<LaserJock> I think this spring we'll have our linux lab maybe working
<LaserJock> we need to upgrade ~15 machines to Intrepid first though :(
<LaserJock> computers are such a pain ;-)
<nubae> try clonezilla
<nubae> it will upgrade all 15 at once in about an hour
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if they're fresh installs or dist-upgrades
<LaserJock> logging in to 15 computers and running update manager shouldn't take too long, it's just that it's gotta get done
<LaserJock> then we fix AD authentication
<LaserJock> then maybe we figure out printing
<nubae> yeah but they need to download packages for each one
<nubae> heh, printing should be plug and play
<LaserJock> we have lots of bandwidth
<LaserJock> "should"
<LaserJock> we have huge amounts of printing problems with the windows machines
<nubae> yeah.... I had one of these big massive industrial photocopiers that is also a printer
<LaserJock> I'm hoping it just works in Xubuntu and it'll be a "hmm, the Windows machines never can print but the Linux ones work all the time"
<nubae> think it was canon...
<nubae> had to manually install the postscript drivers..
<nubae> man was that a pain
<LaserJock> right now in Windows you have to re-setup the printer every time the machine is rebooted
<nubae> gosh
<LaserJock> and it's not a trivial setup
<LaserJock> if I could just find an LTSP server I could try that
<LaserJock> but honestly I'm not sure if it's that great of an idea for us
<LaserJock> as my feeling is that LTSP takes some work to setup and keep maintained
<LaserJock> and I know when I leave there really isn't going to be much of anybody to maintain it
<nubae> Its improved a lot... intrepid is pretty maintenance free
<ball> If I want to install Edubuntu stand-alone, without ltsp, can I use the ordinary Xubuntu install CD instead of the alternate?
<LaserJock> well, kinda
<LaserJock> the Edubuntu CD is an addon to Ubuntu so it assumes ubuntu-desktop is installed
<LaserJock> so you might have to pull dependencies off the net to install some stuff
<LaserJock> also edubuntu-desktop depends on ubuntu-desktop so you probably don't want to install that
<LaserJock> but say if you wanted Edubuntu without ltsp you could use the Ubuntu Desktop CD just fine
<ball> Hmm... perhaps I should install (Gnome) Ubuntu then instead of Xubuntu
<LaserJock> kind of depends on what you're trying to do
<ball> Is that what you suggest?
<ball> LaserJock: I'm preparing a laptop that's going to Haiti
<LaserJock> ball: not a very big hard drive?
<ball> LaserJock: I don't know yet, I haven't booted it.
<ball> Probably not tiny though, it comes with a FireWire port
<LaserJock> because if you have plenty of diskspace you can install both
<LaserJock> and then the user can log into either Gnome or Xfce depending how well it performs
<LaserJock> or you could install Kubuntu and just install selected educational apps
<ball> brb, I have to switch seats.
<ball> Does the Edubuntu CD differ much from edubuntu-desktop?
<LaserJock> well, the CD has all the stuff that's in edubuntu-desktop and a little bit more
<LaserJock> but the CD itself lets you also pick individual apps in the GUI that pops up
<LaserJock> so either way (CD or apt-get) will get you stuff
<ball> It's a shame I have to install Ubuntu: that means two user interfaces to support instead of one.
<LaserJock> well, you can do xubuntu
<LaserJock> and then apt-get the apps you want
<ball> What do the Edubuntu CD and edubuntu-desktop offer over and above the applications?
<LaserJock> we'll they're meant to pull things together
<LaserJock> make it easier to install on an Ubuntu desktop
<LaserJock> the CD lets people in low-bandwith countries share the educational apps
<ball> That's a good idea, I should send install CDs with the machine.
<LaserJock> but we sort of have to make some assumption on what's already installed on the user's machine
<LaserJock> otherwise we'd have to include *everything*
 * ball nods
<ball> I'll try Ubuntu on the laptop, though I know it's more heavyweight than Xubuntu
<LaserJock> it is, but it if it runs ok it's more featureful, IMO
<ball> I'll try to convince myself that's a good thing ;-)\
<LaserJock> well, I think for kidos it's maybe easier to use
<ball> "more featureful" usually means less easy to use in my experience.
<LaserJock> perhaps
<calimer> sandbox did it!!!!
<calimer> top 100 at moddb for mod/game of the year!!
<calimer> out of 9k!!!
<ball> I'll give it a try anyway.
<ball> Thanks a lot for your help LaserJock
<calimer> and oh yeah LaserJock cool article
<LaserJock> calimer: thanks
<LaserJock> calimer: and congrats!
<calimer> thanks!!
<calimer> now we just need votes for top 10 :D
#edubuntu 2010-01-18
<N1XF0RC3> hi
<N1XF0RC3> "apt-get build-dep ruby" [missing sources .list]
<N1XF0RC3> any help
<crimsun> sorry, what do you mean?
<crimsun> what's the precise error received?
<N1XF0RC3> Reading package lists... Done
<N1XF0RC3> Building dependency tree
<N1XF0RC3> Reading state information... Done
<N1XF0RC3> E: You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list
<crimsun> right, so you need deb-src lines
<N1XF0RC3> ?
<N1XF0RC3> i don't know what should i add in /etc/apt/sources.list
<crimsun> if you're unfamiliar with the actual /etc/apt/sources.list, you should probably use System > Administration > Software Sources > Ubuntu Software > Source code
<crimsun> meaning, tick the Source code checkbox
<N1XF0RC3> i need  the repos and i will add it to sources list
<N1XF0RC3> i have no X window
<N1XF0RC3> it's VPS
<crimsun> well, the ruby binary package is generated from the ruby-defaults source package, which is in main
<crimsun> so you'll need a deb-src line for main at least
<crimsun> i.e., same line that you have for deb http://[...] main  but deb-src instead of deb
<N1XF0RC3> mmm
<N1XF0RC3> one sec plz
<crimsun> it should be commented in your /etc/apt/sources.list anyhow.
<N1XF0RC3> my list like this now
<N1XF0RC3> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy main restricted universe
<N1XF0RC3> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-updates main restricted universe
<N1XF0RC3> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security main restricted universe
<N1XF0RC3> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu
<N1XF0RC3> ~
<N1XF0RC3> tell me error in line 4
<N1XF0RC3> wrong line
<N1XF0RC3> u there
<crimsun> you didn't copy correctly
<crimsun> copy precisely the deb lines, but instead of prepending deb, use deb-src
<crimsun> (also, please don't query me)
<N1XF0RC3> sorry
<N1XF0RC3> what wrong in this line "deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu"
<crimsun> it is incomplete
<N1XF0RC3> please tell me what missing
<sbalneav> N1XF0RC3: What source are you trying to add a line for?  main?
<sbalneav> N1XF0RC3: If so, you'd need:
<sbalneav> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy main
<sbalneav> crimsun: Good news, I think I "repaired" my pulse problem.  libjack0 was installed.
<sbalneav> When I removed that, pulse started behaving better
<N1XF0RC3> am try apt-get build-dep ruby  and tell me sourses.list
<N1XF0RC3> E: You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list
<sbalneav> Well, unless you removed them at some point, the src url's should have been in there.
<sbalneav> however, something like
<sbalneav> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ hardy main universe
<sbalneav> should do what you want.
<N1XF0RC3> okie
<N1XF0RC3> E: Could not open file /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_hardy_main_source_Sources - open (2 No such file or directory)
<N1XF0RC3> this is the error i got
<sbalneav> Could you please paste the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list file to the pastebin?
<sbalneav> !pastebin
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://ubuntu.pastebin.com | To post !screenshots use http://tinyurl.com/imagebin | !pastebinit to paste directly from  command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic
<N1XF0RC3> !pastebin deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy main restricted universe
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<N1XF0RC3> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-updates main restricted universe
<N1XF0RC3> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security main restricted universe
<N1XF0RC3> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ hardy main univers
<N1XF0RC3> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m4adb75a7
<sbalneav> You've spelt universe wrong
<sbalneav> last line
<N1XF0RC3> :O
<N1XF0RC3> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m69be8b18
<N1XF0RC3> E: Could not open file /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_hardy_main_source_Sources - open (2 No such file or directory)
<sbalneav> You're kidding me right?
<N1XF0RC3> same  wrong error
<sbalneav> because YOU'VE SPELT IT WRONG AGAIN
<sbalneav> It's spelt right on the line above
<N1XF0RC3> :O
<N1XF0RC3> am gone kill my self
<N1XF0RC3> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m4daf07c6
<N1XF0RC3> same error *+*
<N1XF0RC3> E: Could not open file /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_hardy_main_source_Sources - open (2 No such file or directory)
<sbalneav> OK, after you make the change, how are you doing a sudo apt-get update?
<N1XF0RC3> ;)
<N1XF0RC3> i update
<N1XF0RC3> and it's downloading now
<N1XF0RC3> worked brother
<N1XF0RC3> :)
<N1XF0RC3> thank you
<N1XF0RC3> (F)
<N1XF0RC3> could i ask for one more thing
<sbalneav> Of course
<N1XF0RC3> :D
<N1XF0RC3> E: Couldn't find package ruby-dev
<sbalneav> It's correct
<sbalneav> there is no ruby-dev package.
<N1XF0RC3> deb http://packages.medibuntu.org/ karmic free non-free
<N1XF0RC3> ?
<sbalneav> there's a ruby1.8-dev and a ruby1.9-dev
<sbalneav> You're on hardy, you shouldn't put karmic lines in your sources.list
<N1XF0RC3> okie
<sbalneav> What is it that you're actually trying to do?
<N1XF0RC3> trying to install ruby and ruby gems
<sbalneav> why not just "apt-get install ruby rubygems"?
<sbalneav> they're both packages on hardy
<N1XF0RC3> this is all package is dependencies
<sbalneav> If you apt-get install ruby rubygems, all the package dependencies will be solved for you.
<N1XF0RC3> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 19 not upgraded.
<sbalneav> ok, have you done a dist-upgrade to handle the 19 not upgraded?
<sbalneav> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<N1XF0RC3> root@freeze:/pentest# sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<N1XF0RC3> Reading package lists... Done
<N1XF0RC3> Building dependency tree
<N1XF0RC3> Reading state information... Done
<N1XF0RC3> Calculating upgrade... Done
<N1XF0RC3> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
<N1XF0RC3> :D
<sbalneav> ok, so
<sbalneav> dpkg -l | egrep
<N1XF0RC3> dist-upgrad what mean
<sbalneav> dpkg -l | egrep "ruby"
<sbalneav> you may already have it installed
<sbalneav> dist-upgrade will install packages that get added.  A normal upgrade wont uprade any package that needs new packages installed.
<N1XF0RC3> yes installed
<sbalneav> ok, so there you go.
<sbalneav> ruby's installed.
<N1XF0RC3> YES
<N1XF0RC3> BUT I NEED REPOS FOR ruby-dev libpcap-dev
<N1XF0RC3> where i can find  repos
<sbalneav> Well, I already told you about ruby
<sbalneav> there's a ruby1.8-dev and a ruby1.9-dev
<sbalneav> which libpcap do you have installed?
<sbalneav> dpkg -l | grep libpcap
<sbalneav> You probably have 0.8
<sbalneav> if so, you want:
<sbalneav> libpcap0.8-dev
<N1XF0RC3> ii  libpcap0.8                         0.9.8-2                                                    System interface for user-level packet capture
<N1XF0RC3> them installed
<sbalneav> ok, so you want libpcap0.8-dev
<sbalneav> And as for ruby, it looks like the default's 1.8
<sbalneav> so you'd need ruby1.8-dev
<N1XF0RC3> yes
<N1XF0RC3> coz  the one installed not for ruby
<sbalneav> Sorry?  That didn't make any sense to me.
<sbalneav> What do you mean?
<N1XF0RC3> i will past u the output for ruby  packages
<N1XF0RC3> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m477a20d3
<sbalneav> Look at line 46
<sbalneav> you've already got ruby1.8-dev installed
<sbalneav> so, you have your ruby1.8-dev package you want.
<N1XF0RC3> yes  bro
<N1XF0RC3> :)
<N1XF0RC3> don't hate me
<N1XF0RC3> okie
<sbalneav> so if you don't have libpcap0.8-dev, then just apt-get install libpcap0.8-dev
<N1XF0RC3> ::)
<N1XF0RC3> i did
<N1XF0RC3> :D
<sbalneav> ok, so you have what you want then.
<N1XF0RC3> yes
<sbalneav> crimsun: Anything new and exciting I should be watching for in the new rtkit?
<crimsun> sbalneav: not really
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, ping :)
<dhillon-v10> crimsun, hey there :)
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: semi-awake pong :)
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, seems like you are tired, do you want to work on any of the bugs or we can work tomorrow
 * dhillon-v10 gives HedgeMage a cup of coffee
<N1XF0RC3> i need one without sugar
<N1XF0RC3> :D
<N1XF0RC3> plz
<N1XF0RC3> :d
<N1XF0RC3> i will make for u
<N1XF0RC3> :P
<N1XF0RC3> wb
<N1XF0RC3> i have problem with subversion
<sbalneav> N1XF0RC3: More info might be helpful
<N1XF0RC3> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m1869df54
<N1XF0RC3> full info
<sbalneav> http://www.metasploit.com
<sbalneav> This what you're trying to get working?
 * dhillon-v10 gives N1XF0RC3 a coffee without sugar :)
<N1XF0RC3> :d
<N1XF0RC3> i wana it work
<N1XF0RC3> with fast-track
<sbalneav> Yeah, well, 2 things.
<N1XF0RC3> and it  only work stable in ubuntu
<dhillon-v10> N1XF0RC3, there aren't enough hours in a day
<N1XF0RC3> lol
<N1XF0RC3> i setup it
<N1XF0RC3> with fast track
<N1XF0RC3> but the sqllite3  was not working
<N1XF0RC3> so i removed it
<sbalneav> 1) This channel's to do with helping people with edubuntu, a distro for kids, and education in the classroom
<sbalneav> So, you're off-topic for this channel.
<N1XF0RC3> and try to rebuild everything agine
<sbalneav> 2) I'm not going to help someone compile hacker tools.
<N1XF0RC3> lol
<N1XF0RC3> u better kick me
<N1XF0RC3> am not hacker
<N1XF0RC3> am try to be
<N1XF0RC3> but it's up to u
<N1XF0RC3> and i will fix it :)
<N1XF0RC3> no coffe
<N1XF0RC3> lol
<N1XF0RC3> yum remove svn;yum update;yum install svn;init 0
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, u there ?
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: just got back...should I read scrollback?
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: LF had a bad dream and woke up, I just made it back to the computer
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: ahh, caught up, no I'm not going to try to attack the site tonight.  I need to handle this Drupal 7 bug then get to bed
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, okay then, can I help with that bug
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: It's a little over my head, I'm asking questions in #drupal-contribute now.  I get that node_access is repeating a query multiple times on node_load and it's a performance issue, but there are a few things in the patch I don't recognize.  If the patch author is awake, I'll get info from him, otherwise I'll give up and call it a night.  Thanks for offering though!
<N1XF0RC3> :D
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, okay :) I can't really help much unless I see the patch, but I know you can probably figure it out yourself :)
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: it's http://drupal.org/node/353595 if you are interested
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, okay this is better :)
<HedgeMage> Much :)
<HedgeMage> I'm glad I was able to help with that one, that kind of stuff *is* important, and I also need to get to know node_access better.  I know how to use it, but haven't coded with it in a while.
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, did I show this to you before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, oh okay :) I didn't quite understand what was happening besides a loop not stopping
<HedgeMage> Thanks to catch I get it now.  Basically, when node_load is run (which brings up a node so you can display or change it or whatever), node_access (which controls who can see/edit/etc each node) was running the same query each time it checked a piece of info, instead of running the query once then checking everything it needed to check.  This patch made a little cache item that (staying within the same node_load so it's not caching long en
<N1XF0RC3> lol cute video
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, ahh I am actually reading this conversation right now with something similar happening on linux kernel, but it was regarding memory locks :)
<N1XF0RC3> root@freeze:~/subversion-1.4.6# sudo apt-get install --reinstall libsvn1
<N1XF0RC3>   subversion: Depends: libsvn1 (= 1.4.6dfsg1-2ubuntu1.1) but 1.5.1dfsg1-1ubuntu2clazzes5 is to be installed
<dhillon-v10> N1XF0RC3, possible to work on this tomorrow, I am kind of busy with something else
<N1XF0RC3> okid
<sbalneav> Heading to bed.  Night all.
<HedgeMage> goodnight, sbalneav
<HedgeMage> sweet dreams
<HedgeMage> I'll be doing the same soon
<highvoltage> stgraber: If I did things right you should be able to get ops now in #edubuntu
<highvoltage> also added UbuntuIrcCouncil on their request
<sbalneav> Morning all
<sbalneav> highvoltage: yeah, I was helping that N1XF0RC3 guy for a while out of the goodness of my heart
<sbalneav> my spidey-sense started tingling when he wanted libpcap-dev
<sbalneav> then he was having trouble doing an svn checkout on metasploit
<sbalneav> that's when I told him I wasn't gonna help him anymore.
<stgraber> highvoltage: seems to work
<mhall119> for anyone who uses Facebook, we have a new character coming to Qimo: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Qimo-4-Kids/257643984532?ref=nf
<highvoltage> sbalneav: metasploit?
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok cool, I just finished dinner but I'd still like to try it on lxc
<haurra> hi there, while I was upgrading one of the main server of a local network at a school, a teacher came and plug the machine out of the socket !!!
<sbalneav> highvoltage: http://www.metasploit.com/
<haurra> Now the system do not want to boot, in recovery mode I have only a minimum shell
<haurra> However I can access a terminal in normal mode but the main partition / is mounted as read only
<sbalneav> haurra: Power plug, you mean?
<haurra> I don't know what to do and all the work of the trainee is on this machine, I would greatly appreciate your help
<haurra> sbalneav: yes sorry for my french
<sbalneav> Yikes, not good.
<haurra> pff, tell me about it
<haurra> any good termninal user around ?
<sbalneav> At this point, you'd be better off to restore the machine from backups, and start the upgrade again.
<mhall119> highvoltage, I've got some new xsplash and gdm artwork coming in, so I'll be working on those packages soon
<sbalneav> LTSP terminals, you mean?  A couple of us are ltsp developers
<sbalneav> and users :)
<alkisg> alexidoia, apart from the backup solution, which would be best, you may also have some luck by running `apt-get -f install` or `dpkg --configure -a`, followed by `apt-get dist-upgrade` in the recovery shell.
<sbalneav> alkisg: might.
<alexidoia> alkisg: of course, but /var is read only which seems to stuck dpk or apt
<mhall119> does edubuntu use a custom GDM and XSplash theme?
<sbalneav> Might have to remount /
<sbalneav> mount -o remount /
<highvoltage> mhall119: yay!
<sbalneav> alexidoia: try mount -o remount,rw /
<highvoltage> mhall119: not yet
<alexidoia> sbalneav: ok
<sbalneav> what does that give you?
<sbalneav> Did it complain that the filesystem was corrupt on boot?
<alexidoia> sbalneav: can't access any shell right now
<sbalneav> Thought you said you had access to the shell?
<alexidoia> mount : /lib/libblkid.so.1 : no version information available (require by mount)
<alexidoia> sbalneav: ^^
<sbalneav> yeah
<sbalneav> you're hosed
<alexidoia> so what are my options ?
<sbalneav> None
<sbalneav> restore from backup, and start over.
<sbalneav> your disks in a mess
<sbalneav> it's missing packages it needs in order to mount
<sbalneav> but you can't add the packages unless you can mount the disk rw
<sbalneav> chicken and egg
<sbalneav> alexidoia: You have backups, yes?
<alexidoia> no
<alexidoia> I mean, the files yes, but not the system and its application*
<sbalneav> ok then just do a reinstall from scratch, and restore the users files then
<sbalneav> and invest in a UPS
<alkisg> Noone thanks those who bear bad news... :D
<ogra> bad news ?
<alkisg> (06:23:32 Î¼Î¼) alexidoia: so what are my options ?
<alkisg> (06:23:39 Î¼Î¼) sbalneav: None
<ogra> he will do a reinstall and save the time for the upgrade :)
<alkisg> Heh
<alkisg> Well... We did a crash test on the fat clients plugin today
<alkisg> Apart from some sound problems that were ALSO there on _thin_ clients, it worked like a charm
<alkisg> A whole lab running off a server, full screen flash and everything, with no problems in CPU usage etc
<sbalneav> alkisg: probably pissed at me for not being able to recover everything for him with one command :)
<sbalneav> I am *CONSTANTLY* astounded at the number of people who do not have proper backups, and get absolutely indignant at you if you can't somehow sprinkle magic pixie dust on a borked system to make it work again.
<alkisg> Hmmm you should take the "terminal masters" class in Hogwarts
<sbalneav> The whole point of backups is that sometimes a machine gets borked so you CAN'T just sprinkle magic pixie dust on it. :)
<crimsun> hmm, sound problems?
<crimsun> BTW, the latest PA upload (1:0.9.22~0.9.21+stable-queue-32-g8478-0ubuntu1) finally resolves server- vs. client-side hangups
<alkisg> crimsun: yes, but only on the thin/fat clients. With the live lucid cd they worked flawlessly
<sbalneav> crimsun: Don't know wether you saw my message from yesterday, but libjack0 was installed on my box, and upon removing that, pulse started behaving much better.
<crimsun> sbalneav: hmm, only libjack0? Was jackd also installed?
<sbalneav> No, no jackd
<sbalneav> just libjack
<crimsun> hmm.
<mhall119> highvoltage, do you have any artwork that can be used for the GDM and XSplash themes?
<sbalneav> I could draw some stick figures :)
<mhall119> xkcd-stype?
<sbalneav> yeah, only not so good.
<sbalneav> You know, maybe we should approach the digital blasphemy guy, see if he'd do a background for us.
<sbalneav> www.digitalblasphemy.com
<sbalneav> I've had a paid subscription with him for years.
<highvoltage> mhall119: Mads Rosendahl is working on some artwork for us, I'll ping him and find out more or less how much time he'll need
<highvoltage> mhall119: he did some nice things for other projects alread, like the ubuntu ldm artwork
<mhall119> cool
<sbalneav> ah, cool.
<highvoltage> mhall119: the plan is to start with a real nice wallpaper and make the rest to work nicely with it (gtk theme, plymouth theme, xplash, etc)
<alkisg> Hmmm very fine indeed... http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/freegallery.shtml
<mhall119> plymouth?
<mhall119> is that going to be used in Lucid?
<crimsun> it's already there
<highvoltage> mhall119, sbalneav: modifying something like this for edubuntu might be nice I think: http://www.webupd8.org/2010/01/ubuntu-lucid-plymouth-theme-idea-space.html
<mhall119> so, is Usplash out then?
<crimsun> (and wreaking havoc for some setups)
<crimsun> yes
<highvoltage> crimsun: indeed :)
<mhall119> it only works with kernel mode switching right?
<highvoltage> mhall119: yes
<sbalneav> alkisg: he does all the art himself, and it's all digitally done.  I love "space" type backgrounds, and he does really nice ones.
<crimsun> pretty much, and then only in certain cases
<mhall119> which is just some intel and ati cards isn't it?
<crimsun> for instance, if you use enciphered lvm /, you're currently screwed
<highvoltage> mhall119: I believe it works with nuvou (sp?) drivers as well now
<crimsun> (you'll see the prompt on KMS-enabled but your key presses are never processed; on non-KMS-enabled you don't see anything /and/ your keypresses aren't processed)
<mhall119> are those stable yet?
<mhall119> fun
<highvoltage> sbalneav: those digitalblasphemy artwork is nice, but they're not released under a license we can use are they?
<highvoltage> mhall119: it's supposed to make it in for lucid, I believe it's usable and fairly stable although not on par feature-wise with the non-free driver
<sbalneav> highvoltage: No, they aren't, but that doesn't mean we can't approach him and see if he WOULD be willing to do something for us under a license we can use.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: nice thinking
<sbalneav> I'm thinking if he could do a desktop with a library scene, or a classroom scene, or something.
<sbalneav> If he'd be willing to do it for <$300 I'd be willing to fund that.
<sbalneav> I know he does commissions.
<crimsun> I'd chip in, too
<sbalneav> I'm just throwing it out there, not trying to take anything away from Mads
<crimsun> (if there's an e-mail discussion, please Cc me)
<highvoltage> sbalneav: so let's do commissionjs, tell him he gets 70% of each Edubuntu CD we sell :)
<sbalneav> bwahahaha
<sbalneav> right, 70% of what's left over after we've been paid :)
<highvoltage> sbalneav: we told Mads that we might approach other artists, and that even if he makes something really nice we'd use something nicer if it comes along
<highvoltage> sbalneav: and it wouldn't hurt having more stuff for future desings, although, it might be a bit sucky if you pay for something and Mads' artwork ends up being used
<sbalneav> What's the will and pleasure of edubuntu-(council|devs|chchannel) I can send off an email this morning.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I say just go for it
<sbalneav> Oh, I don't mind, we could just put it on the disk anyway
<sbalneav> ok, I'll send him an email.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: indeed, and use it for one of the art-packs
<sbalneav> sure
<sbalneav> It'll make Ahmuck happy: we'll have SOMETHING unique about edubuntu :)
<sbalneav> ok, I'll send an email, and cc edubuntu-devs
<highvoltage> awesome
<mhall119> http://www.qimo4kids.com/post/A-look-at-whats-coming-in-Qimo-20.aspx
<sbalneav> mhall119: I saw both edubuntu and quimo got a mention in Linux Journal recently
<mhall119> sbalneav, yeah, I bought 3 copies of it :)
<sbalneav> mhall119: Well done!
<mhall119> you guys too
<sbalneav> Do you start with ubuntu, and add some of our stuf, and some of your own, or do you start with edubuntu as the base?
<mhall119> I start with Xubuntu
<sbalneav> and, is there anything that we can do to make it easier for your effort?
<mhall119> so it's got the XFCE dependencies already, and not all of the Gnome ones
<mhall119> well, once I have packages, highvoltage has already volunteered to help me get them into Universe
<mhall119> I've read a how-to on customizing GDM and XSplash, so I think I'm good there
<mhall119> so my biggest task is making an XFCE session for Qimo that saves it's setting somewhere different from the stock XFCE session
<mhall119> I will probably need help making the alternate install CD, because I've never done that before
<sbalneav> mhall119: If you think the xfce stuff needs some programming, and need a hand, let me know.
<mhall119> thanks
<mhall119> I was told it shouldn't, that all the XFCE programs should respect the $XDG_ variables for where to store settings
<mhall119> and I got most of them working on 9.04
<mhall119> my only problem was XFConf, which I think they were changing or removing in 9.10/10.04 anywya
<sbalneav> wow, wasn't expecting something this fast...
<sbalneav> Thanks for writing Scott.  To be honest I don't usually accept
<sbalneav> commissions but if the project is interesting enough and I can work on
<sbalneav> it without compromising my wallpaper creations then I would consider
<sbalneav> it.  What exactly did you have in mind?
<sbalneav> What do we want to ask for?
<sbalneav> I'm thinking something like either a classroom/teacher's desk type picture
<sbalneav> or the inside of a nice old library with stacks of books.
<sbalneav> highvoltage
<sbalneav> crimsun:
<sbalneav> stgraber:
<sbalneav> other ideas?
<ogra> nekkid puppies !
<sbalneav> ogra!!!
<ogra> :)
<HedgeMage> hey, ogra :)
<sbalneav> HedgeMage: ideas?
<ogra> sbalneav, i would go with something more abstract
<ogra> sbalneav, if he is an artist, just give him a raw direction and let him do some examples
<sbalneav> ogra: Well, I think that's what Mad's going to do
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: Hmmm...have you ever seen Disney's version of The Sword In the Stone?
<sbalneav> years ago
<sbalneav> All I remember is the scrawny kid pulling the sword out of the stone
<sbalneav> rests's a blurr.
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: There's a scene wher Merlin packs up all of his stuff by casting a spell and it all lines up nicely and floats toward his little suitcase, shrinking as it goes, then it all fits in.
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: It would be cool to have a classroom full of school stuff sucked into a computer like that.
<ogra> i.e. i'd go with some floating chars, formulas probably some sketches of animals or flowers etc
 * HedgeMage sings "Hockity-pockity-wockity-whack, odds and ends and brick-a-brack, shrink in size, very small, we've got to leave enough room for all..."
<sbalneav> Ah, so have a stream of things like chalk erasers, desks, books, teachers apple, protractors, etc, being sucked into the computer
<HedgeMage> yep
<ogra> sounds intresting
 * HedgeMage is easily entertained
<ogra> mind you, dont make it to distracting though
<highvoltage> sbalneav: not so sure about the classroom idea. I guess I'd like something spacy instead, but that's just me
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: that sounds very americanny-folky :)
<HedgeMage> highvoltage: is that a good thing or a bad thing?
<HedgeMage> :P
<HedgeMage> It would be nice, come to think of it, if we had some things that appealed to older students.
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: no idea :)
<HedgeMage> I have a tendency to just think about the little ones because that's what I have at home, buta lot of edubuntu art is already geared toward them.
<sbalneav> what, grade 11, 12, and low uni?
<HedgeMage> Something like that :)
<sbalneav> Hmm, that would be something more "library-ey" I'd think.  He does some neat architechture things.  A Library with rows of books that sort of fades off into infinity might be neat.
<sbalneav> Would people be interested in that?  A sort of "Infinte Library" theme?
<HedgeMage> I'm up for anything
<HedgeMage> I'm no artist so I never really know how things would look until I see them.
<highvoltage> I just blogged aboot our wiki hug day: http://jonathancarter.co.za/2010/01/18/edubuntu-wiki-hug-day/
<highvoltage> Feel free to do the same ;)
<stgraber> highvoltage: can I steal your edubuntu wiki image ?
<dgroos> Good Afternoon All
<highvoltage> stgraber: of course!
<dgroos> sbalneav: Just saw your list-serve email--I'll kick in as well.
<highvoltage> stgraber: I already stole it from myself for another website ;)
<sbalneav> dgroos: I'm hoping he'll do it for free, but we'll see :)
<dgroos> For sure.
<alkisg> ogra, could you direct me on where to look for the "don't put ldm translations to langpacks" problem?
<alkisg> stgraber, would you know anything about it? Here's what ogra has said:
<alkisg> (12:03:06 Î¼Î¼) ogra: alkisg, i'm asking for years now to remove LDM locales from the langpackas and leave it in the package, so the existing locale-gen plugin generates the translations on the fly
<alkisg> (12:03:06 Î¼Î¼) ogra: iirc the code needed in the ldm packaging was even added at some point, check with stgraber, probably it was accidentially dropped or so
<alkisg> (12:04:52 Î¼Î¼) ogra: there are some runes you can add to debian/rules so the messages stay in the package
<alkisg> (12:06:46 Î¼Î¼) ogra: a locale-gen el run (which is what the plugin should do if nobody changed my code) should then generate the translations on the fly
<alkisg> Hmmm I found some info here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuDevelopment/Internationalisation/Packaging
<alkisg> One way would be to blacklist it in pkgbinarymangler: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/pkgbinarymangler/lucid/annotate/head%3A/striptranslations.blacklist
<alkisg> ldm (2:2.0.13-0ubuntu2) intrepid; urgency=low
<alkisg>   * add export NO_PKG_MANGLE=1 to debian/rules to prevent stripping of the translations, thin clients should not have to have full langpacks installed due to space reasons.
<alkisg>  -- Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com>  Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:03:47 +0200
<stgraber> alkisg: what I'm a bit worried about that NO_PKG_MANGLE is that it might also prevert the -dbgsym packages from being created
<sbalneav> Prevent or Pervert? :)
<sbalneav> Or perhaps, prevent perversion?
<sbalneav> Post perversion prevention, practically pandemic!
<sbalneav> Petunia, promulgating propriety, practiced perversion prevention perennially.
<sbalneav> I need help.
<stgraber> *prevent ;)
<stgraber> sbalneav: everything ok ? :)
 * alkisg gives up on this and goes on to try something easier... :D
<stgraber> alkisg: did you implement that process kill one-liner I pasted you the other day ?
<alkisg> stgraber: no, I thought it would be better if we prevented the daemons from starting at the first place,
<stgraber> I told highvoltage about it this morning as something we may want to include in ltsp-build-client and ltsp-update-image
<alkisg> and also I wasn't quite sure that I would do it correctly :)
<stgraber> alkisg: sure, but that'd still be useful to catch things that we can't prevent from starting.
<alkisg> I agree, both killing and umount -l would be good as failovers
<stgraber> alkisg: it'd be better if they never start but in the unlikely case where they do, it'd be better if we kill them rather than having mksquashfs fail
<alkisg> Also `mksquashfs --exclude /proc` or something like that
<alkisg> stgraber: I can try that tomorrow, but I'd like to tackle it all together,
<alkisg> so I'd like your opinion on the "changing the path" idea..
<stgraber> alkisg: that kill line will make sure that umount will work, so umount -l and -e /proc shouldn't be required at all (and the real thing I don't want is leftover process, umount -l and -e /proc don't prevent that from happening)
<alkisg> (i.e. provide start/stop/reload etc wrappers as part of our .deb)
<alkisg> Hmm how brutal is that? If you're ok with just killing and no wrappers, I'm ok too :)
<alkisg> Or I could see if dpkg-divert works without side  effects...
<stgraber> I'd go with wrapper where possible + kill for leftovers
<alkisg> OK. It'll be better if we shipped those wrappers, and not created them on the fly
<alkisg> The sysadmin could also use them, in the same sense he uses LTSP_HANDLE_DAEMONS now
<alkisg> chroot $ROOT PATH=wrappers_dir:$PATH command
<stgraber> alkisg: I guess the idea of doing that in the LTSP plugins was that it'd be applied before any daemon starts
<alkisg> Yes, what I said above was just for the sysadmin wanting to install more programs afterwards
<stgraber> alkisg: remember than LTSP itself ships daemons and you can't predict in which order packages will be installed
<alkisg> stgraber: 000-daemon-handling would change the path to include the wrappers dir first
<stgraber> alkisg: you'd need those wrappers to be installed before you can set PATH to point to them
<stgraber> alkisg: remember that you need these to be installed BEFORE we install ltsp-client-core ;)
<alkisg> stgraber: ok, but no daemons are started in EARLY_PACKAGES afaik
<stgraber> really ?
<alkisg> And we could even do that before EARLY_PACKAGES
<alkisg> I think so. I only had problems with leftover processes when I used the fat client plugin, and that only installed stuff after EARLY_PACKAGES
<stgraber> then "OK. It'll be better if we shipped those wrappers, and not created them on the fly" is wrong before as you can't ship them with the ltsp-client-core package, you need to write them on the fly from a ltsp-build-client plugin
<alkisg> In a normal, thin chroot, I don't think any daemons are started (I mean new, upstart daemons - but maybe that'll change in the future?)
<alkisg> stgraber: OK. Where is a good place to put them? /var/lib/ltsp? /tmp? (I don't really like tmp...)
<sbalneav> stgraber: losing my mind is all :)
<alkisg> stgraber: would you mind if I filed a bug in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pkgbinarymangler/+bugs and asked them to put ldm in striptranslations.blacklist (or, if we could safely use NO_PKG_MANGLE instead, without worrying about dbgsym packages not being created)?
<stgraber> alkisg: is that the same list ltsp is already on ?
<alkisg> stgraber: no, only a few packages are there: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/pkgbinarymangler/lucid/annotate/head%3A/striptranslations.blacklist
<stgraber> right, anyway translatable strings for ltsp are mostly on the server side I guess
<stgraber> quickly looking through ltsp-trunk, all of them seem to be in ldm-trunk actually
<stgraber> I can do the change myself, no need to open a bug
<stgraber> (at least I think so ;))
<stgraber> alkisg: done
<alkisg> Yey! :)
 * stgraber hopes he understood how that thing works correctly ;)
 * alkisg can't wait for a new ltsp uploading :D
<stgraber> there was a bzr branch, so I did the change there + updated changelog and pushed. Only weird thing is that it's only one of 3 branches with the same content (though it's the one referenced in the package) ;)
<stgraber> alkisg: still waiting for the whole Fat client thing to be tested and rock solid and nbd-proxy to be fixed.
<stgraber> alkisg: there's also some good optimization work going on that I want to be in.
<stgraber> alkisg: the plan is to release 5.1.99 this week and probably have 5.2 release at some point next week or the week after
<alkisg> stgraber: I've done a lot of testing with the fat client script, is there anything else to test?
<stgraber> alkisg: so I don't want to release 5.1.99 too early as it's going to be the last release before 5.2 ;)
<stgraber> alkisg: I'm still waiting for feedback from highvoltage and I want to test it on Lucid + ltsp-cluster at the office too.
<alkisg> stgraber: hmmm if you could upload a recent version to your ppa, I could tell some interested teachers to put it to their sources and test...
<stgraber> alkisg: isn't this morning's recent enough ? ;)
 * alkisg looks :)
<stgraber> upstream is at 1531 and I have 1526 in the PPA
<stgraber> so you have all changes except these done today
<stgraber> uploading a new snapshot
<alkisg> stgraber: yup, please do, #1527 was a nasty bug :(
<highvoltage> stgraber: yeah since my lxc didn't start up I just moved to easier work :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: but I'll do it on a 'real' machine or VM tomorrow
 * alkisg and his team tested the fat client script in a lab with about 10 PCs with different hardware this morning
<alkisg> Apart from some sound issues all went well
<alkisg> Those sound issues were also there with Lucid thin clients, but not with Karmic thin clients
<alkisg> So it might be upstart related, or kernel related...?
<highvoltage> or pulse related?
<alkisg> Could be... the main thing is that 10 clients booted with an 11 Gb virtual disk image in less than 1 minute.
<alkisg> So I'm pretty sure that fat clients will be a big success in Lucid.
<stgraber> highvoltage: great, thanks. I'll try to make LXC work with lucid this week, that's part of a spec I'm supposed to implement ;)
<highvoltage> stgraber: awesome.
<stgraber> alkisg: I had a few pulse issues here recently, I have to revert to a previous version (on my laptop, not on LTSP). Haven't had the time to look at it in detail so no bug report filed yet.
<alkisg> Ah, nice, that would explain why sound worked on only half of the machines.
<mhall119> does LTSP benefit at all from the new same page merging in the kernel?
<mhall119> or does shared libraries get you all of that already
<stgraber> shared libraries give us that already
<alkisg> I'm writing a set of ltsp-build-client plugins related to the fat client plugin, for use in Greek schools. Some of those might be useful to others, so I'll list the more generic ones here, in case someone would like to see them upstream:
<alkisg> (1) if italc is installed on the chroot, copy italc keys from the server, (2) if a parameter "passwordless_root_ssh" is specified, install openssh to the chroot and setup the keys,
<alkisg> (3) an "install all server langpacks to the chroot" plugin, (4) a "configure_gnome_proxy" on the clients if squid is installed on the server,
<alkisg> (5) and "add-apt-repository" plugin, (6) a "use current user's password for the chroot root's password" plugin
 * stgraber is glad he's using bcfg2/puppet for that kind of stuff ;) Makes it extremely easy to have the same experience on regular desktop and fat clients
 * alkisg cannot even understand what bcfg2 does, by reading its description... "Bcfg2 has been designed from the ground up to support gentle reconciliation between the specification and current client states."
<stgraber> basically you define all your package lists, configuration, services, ... using templates, then run bcfg2 on the computer or in the chroot and it'll get its compiled configuration from the server
<alkisg> Oooh that sounds cool
<stgraber> then parse it and does everything described there. So usually, installing packages, copying files from a server, making sure all files are the rights ones and weren't modified, install services, ...
<stgraber> I basically never do a apt-get install or edit a file on a server directly now
<stgraber> all I do is do the change in a bzr branch and wait an hour for it to automatically get applied on all servers
<alkisg> So I could use it to ship configuration templates to other schools here?
<stgraber> (that's how I can maintain 80 Ubuntu installs only on my home LAN, lot of VMs ;))
<alkisg> Damn my TODO list keeps getting longer! :( :D
<alkisg> Ty stgraber
<stgraber> alkisg: yeah, you could have one central server, storing all the package lists, list of actions (basically shell scripts), custom configuration files, ...
<stgraber> and then have all servers use that and update every hour
<stgraber> so if you do a change, it gets deployed in the hour to all servers
<alkisg> Wow...
<stgraber> Did you really thing I managed our 50 application servers cluster by doing some SSH ? ;)
<stgraber> anyway, if you want to take a look, I'd suggest puppet, it's currently better maintained and has a lot more tutorials and examples than Bcfg2
<alkisg> I've used clusterssh for a while, and it was really handy for 12 terminals. Sure, it had nothing to do with configuration replication, but I really liked editing 12 files simulaneously or doing 12 apt-get updates... :)
 * alkisg googles for puppet...
<stgraber> http://reductivelabs.com/trac/puppet/ (in case Google in Greece isn't returning it as the first result, it used to be hard to find though now it's the first result on Google english)
<stgraber> probably something to do with Google itself using it for their desktops ;)
<alkisg> I found it, but it wasn't on the first page
<stgraber> clusterssh/dsh are great tools for debugging (checking log files and that kind of stuff on a lot of machines), though I had to write my own script as they tend to have issues opening 5000 ssh connections at the same time ;)
<alkisg> Don't complain, that amounts to about 200 pixels per PC... almost a whole square cm :)
<stgraber> ;)
#edubuntu 2010-01-19
<crimsun> stgraber: please try to reproduce issues with latest PA (1:0.9.22~0.9.21+stable-queue-32-g8478-0ubuntu1) first
<crimsun> sbalneav: interesting ideas all (just read backscroll). I do think books, maps, alphabets are interesting (and also am concerned with my or other suggestions perhaps walking the line of being "Western hemisphere-centric")
<dgroos> Good Morning
<dgroos> I'm trying to run a piece of software, a beta version that is a port of a commercial product to ubuntu--still commercial I think though not sure.
<dgroos> This software allows you to connect an interface box with all kinds of probes eg temp, air pressure, O2 and CO2 concentration, heart rate monitor, force, acceleration, and many dozens more, to a computer.
<dgroos> It allows students to easily design data collection and run it.  Very cool.  I'd like to run it with LTSP, but get this error:
<dgroos> dgroos@gcos2:~$ loggerpro
<dgroos> main.cc main(156) : Ubuntu 9.04: 2.6.28-17-generic
<dgroos> Working dir /home/dgroos
<dgroos> Top Level Folder: '/usr/local/share/LoggerPro/'
<dgroos> Our runtime support folder is: /tmp/VST_Support_rLmpwh/
<dgroos> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::logic_error'
<dgroos>   what():  basic_string::_S_construct NULL not valid
<dgroos> Aborted
<dgroos> Is there some kernal of wisdom ;) I could pass on to the developers to make it work on thin clients?
<dgroos> Should I ask this at #ltsp instead?
<highvoltage> dgroos: I guess I would run it through strace, it might give them some useful feedback
<dgroos> highvoltage: thanks, I'll google that and give it a try.
<highvoltage> dgroos: you basically just install strace and type strace before the command, it will then spew lots and lots of information you could use for debugging
<dgroos> Cool, I'm just seeing that (your explanation was understandable as opposed to this line from the wiki: "strace -Ff -tt <program> <arguments> 2>&1 | tee strace-<program>.log" :)
 * stgraber waves
<dgroos> I know there's a way to get the output to print to a file and I need to do that since the output is way more than can be shown in a terminal window.  How do I do this?
<dgroos> Good (early) morning stgraber
<moldy> dgroos: some_command > some_file
<dgroos> thanks moldy!
<moldy> np
<dgroos> moldy: I only get this in the file using the command you mentioned:
<dgroos> Working dir /home/dgroos
<dgroos> Top Level Folder: '/usr/local/share/LoggerPro/'
<dgroos> Our runtime support folder is: /tmp/VST_Support_Wyt4AP/
<moldy> dgroos: sorry, try this: some_command 2>&1 > some_file
<moldy> dgroos: no, sorry. this way: some_command > some_file 2>&1
<moldy> dgroos: otherwise, you only get standard output in the file... you probably want standard error output, too
<dgroos> that did the trick! :)
<moldy> dgroos: also see http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Bash-Prog-Intro-HOWTO-3.html for background information
<mhall119|work> morning
<sbalneav> Morning all
<mhall119|work> morning
<highvoltage> morning mhall119|work, sbalneav
<alkisg> Morning mhall119|work, sbalneav, highvoltage :)
<highvoltage> morning alkisg
<LaserJock> alkisg: yo
<alkisg> Hi LaserJock :)
<LaserJock> one sec, brb
<sbalneav> alkisg: put on your users-admin thinking cap
<alkisg> Wow
 * alkisg puts a donkey hat whatsyamacallit
<highvoltage> omg, it's LaserJock!
<mhall119|work> the Dr. is in
<sbalneav> alkisg: have you looked at the new users-admin tool in Lucid yet?
<alkisg> sbalneav: yes, it looks like someone put some work on it
<sbalneav> right.
<sbalneav> In your professional opinion as an educator, is it useful?
<sbalneav> And, what do we want to do about bulk import?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: does it have bulk import?
<sbalneav> No
<alkisg> Well, for a school, where one wants to manage a lot of students, the previous list-type-interface was much better
<alkisg> (it couldn't even sort by columns, but you know, the idea)
<sbalneav> alkisg: laserjock came up with a patch for the sorting
<sbalneav> then discovered the tool changed completely
<alkisg> I think the current users-admin is oriented towards desktop systems, with only a handful of users
<sbalneav> right.
<sbalneav> So, we have a few choices.
<highvoltage> it would be nice if you could list by group
<highvoltage> or in a school environment, by classroom or grade
<alkisg> Right. kuser does a lot of those things
<highvoltage> I just looked at the new users-admin and it seems to have the same old problems in terms of usability
<sbalneav> highvoltage: How do you store classroom/grade info?  In the gecos field?
<alkisg> Or even fedora's users management GUI (but that's also to be abandoned)
<sbalneav> So, here's the question.  Do we:
<sbalneav> 1) try to add functionality to users-admin? (probably hard)
<sbalneav> 2) ship something that's closer (kusers)
<sbalneav> 3) Write our own tool that's uniquely designed for managing classrooms?
<alkisg> 1 => yeah, and a python-based tool would also be more maintainable
<alkisg> 2 => well we could use that for Lucid, as I don't think we'll have time for (3),
<alkisg> 3 => you're de man!
<sbalneav> We could distribute 3 via the edubuntu-ppa's after release.
<alkisg> If (3) also allowed plugins (=actions) for the selected users, it would be much more helpfull for classrooms
<sbalneav> alkisg: ok, you're the sole educator among us.
<sbalneav> Could I ask you to create a wiki page with all the design features you'd like to see for a user management tool?
<sbalneav> I'd be willing to take this on, and solve it for us once and for all.
<alkisg> sbalneav: sure, but the plugins I'll mention there will only scratch the surface. If you did the plugin system, then the teachers themselves would come up with the needed plugins.
<sbalneav> alkisg: sure, but I need to know what kind of things you want the plugin system to accomplish
<sbalneav> scratch that
<alkisg> Sure
<sbalneav> interface of the plugin system
<alkisg> sbalneav: do we want this to be LTSP oriented?
<sbalneav> i.e. what do you want passed to the plugin?  I.e. userid, home dir. etc.
<sbalneav> alkisg: well, for now, lets just assume it's a general user admin tool.
<alkisg> I mean, suppose a teacher has 12 standalone workstations with students on them. What does users admin do for him?
<sbalneav> if there's ltsp specific things, maybe we handle those with plugins.
<sbalneav> alkisg: handle ldap maybe
<sbalneav> or pam-sshauth
<alkisg> Right, or pamssh... that
<alkisg> Could the plugin show him who's logged on?
 * LaserJock is back
<alkisg> Eeeerr... the tool
<alkisg> Because different actions are needed if the users are logged on, and different if they aren't
<sbalneav> well, I'd say "no" since now you're making it a monitoring tool as well.
<sbalneav> No, the actions are no different.
<alkisg> Or maybe we could leave that for italc or a similar tool :)
<LaserJock> I think it might be wise to separate the idea of managing the system's user information (name, password, etc.) from performing actions on the user
<sbalneav> I'd say so yes.
<sbalneav> LaserJock++
<sbalneav> right, lets solve a smaller problem.
<sbalneav> managing the user database
<alkisg> LaserJock: if you already have the users there, why not allow the sysadmin to execute some actions upon them?
<LaserJock> because it may well prevent us from having the tool in the first place
<sbalneav> alkisg: that would be your plugin thing
<sbalneav> right click on the user drops down list of plugins
<LaserJock> what I think would be a good target would be to get something in upstream GNOME
<sbalneav> click on plugin, plugin gets called for that users
<LaserJock> in the Admin section
<alkisg> Yes, if the tool was designed with plugins in mind...
<sbalneav> Gee, if only there were a gnome developer amongst us who has git.gnome.org access....
<alkisg> heh :D
<alkisg> LaserJock: so... take kuser for example. Would you need anything more, for the admin section?
<LaserJock> I don't know
<LaserJock> what I'd like to see is educators/enterprise users get together and list what is needed
<LaserJock> but not too pie in the sky
<alkisg> It has ldap management, import/export from .csv etc
<sbalneav> LaserJock: I asked alkisg to create a wiki page with requirements
<alkisg> It's fine for enterprise usage
<alkisg> I wouldn't need anything else for account management.
<alkisg> But for *user* management, I'd need more
<ogra> you and your endless requirements, tsk
<LaserJock> ok, but we need account management first :-)
<ogra> one user per PC is enough !
<ogra> :)
<alkisg> ogra: well, give us a good offer for arm netbooks :) We're waiting!
<ogra> hey LaserJock
<LaserJock> ogra: hi!
<sbalneav> yeah, and they sit on the console.
<alkisg> So, if we want an account management tool, I'd say kuser is fine. Not gnome, but in edubuntu, we don't care much as we already have all the KDE stuff.
<LaserJock> right, I'm concerned about GNOME though
<alkisg> For a user management tool, a plugin approach would be needed.
<alkisg> LaserJock: I don't think edubuntu should be concerned about account management. It's more of an enterprise concern, let them do it, they have more resources :D
<LaserJock> ok, but account management is sort of a prerequisite to a lot of other things
<LaserJock> i.e. sabayon, etc.
<LaserJock> effective use of account management could be a very useful thing
<LaserJock> I think it could be a paradigm changer
<LaserJock> how we think of users affects a whole lot of other decisions
<LaserJock> including things like user managment
<LaserJock> if it was trivial to import/export users, change groups on the fly, etc. do you think it would change how educators do user management?
<alkisg> I've given this a lot of thought. I know exactly what I was as a computer teacher (=also sysadmin): an all-in-one tool. To be able to send 10 files to class A or put a firefox bookmark in class B from the same UI.
<alkisg> It's not something enterprise admins would like, though :)
<LaserJock> maybe, maybe not
<alkisg> In other words: the user management tools in windows are sophisticated
<alkisg> They allow for group changes, policy changes etc
<LaserJock> but the foundation of either is account management I'd think
<alkisg> They 're NOT suitable for educators
<LaserJock> why not?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: well. even if you could put them in a unix group
<alkisg> Because they're enterprise oriented
<highvoltage> sbalneav: well. even if you could put them in a unix group 'grade7' and display by that it would help, but gecos could be useful as well for more taggy things
<LaserJock> how so?
<alkisg> You cannot expect a teacher to understand about "resultand set of policies"... :)
<LaserJock> that why we make the tool!!!
<LaserJock> the idea is to abstract the nuts and bolts to something that teachers find useful
<alkisg> That's why I'm saying that I don't really care about an account management tool
<alkisg> I'd like a users management tool. In all the existing tools, windows, kde, fedora's etc, I don't see any actions to do on users
<LaserJock> ok, but it sounds to me like you're saying that you don't want an account management tool because account management tools suck
<alkisg> No, they're doing their job fine
<sbalneav> You guys are making this over complicated.  With your plugin idea, we don't have to worry about that right off the bat.
<sbalneav> All you need to do is:
<sbalneav> 1) create an account management tool that handles account management fine.
<sbalneav> 2) have 2 sets of plugin dirs: one for user actions, one for group actions.
<sbalneav> you alow multi-select on the user and group lists
<sbalneav> when you right-click on a selected set of users, then you get a dropdown menu with the available plugins (i.e. list of files in /usr/share/foo-manager/user-plugins
<sbalneav> you select the plugin
<sbalneav> plugin is passed a list of user or group id's that have been selected.
<sbalneav> so if you want a plugin that copies bookmarks, or whatever, you just write one.
<alkisg> Right. Perfect.
<sbalneav> that won't be OUR problem to solve
<alkisg> The teachers themselves can solve this, if the mechanism is there.
<sbalneav> then as people write plugins, we can either:
<sbalneav> 1) package these up as either individual or groups of plugins
<sbalneav> or
<sbalneav> 2) simply provide a place where people can advertise plugins they've written (wiki, or what have you)
<LaserJock> so the question is, can this be done in users-admin, and if not how can we get it upstream?
<ogra> sbalneav, but but ... then we wouldnt have the fun to explain garymc the .desktop file copying every month in #ltsp ... that would automate everything
<alkisg> Hehehehe
<ogra> sbalneav, that makes us jobless !!!!
<alkisg> Don't worry, we'll hire you as a plugin writer :)
<sbalneav> pffft :)
<alkisg> I don't think users-admin is suitable for plugins
<sbalneav> So, really, what we need is:
<alkisg> Python is better for that instead of C
<sbalneav> 1) something like the old users-admin in terms of interface
<sbalneav> 2) written in python
<sbalneav> 3) need a plugin architecture for "user supplied plugins"
<sbalneav> that's not that hard.
<LaserJock> well
<milanbv> hey guys
<LaserJock> technically *no*
<milanbv> I'm users-admin's maintainer
<LaserJock> but socially?
<LaserJock> milanbv!!!
<LaserJock> milanbv: awesome to see you
<sbalneav> Hello milanbv
<milanbv> hi! :-)
<LaserJock> milanbv: I've been talking to Edubuntu folks in order to know how to respond to your email
<milanbv> it's arer to see so much enthusiasm for the gnome-system-tools
<milanbv> s/arer/rare/
<milanbv> if you're going to write a new app, I'd suggest you to base on the new work by mclasen rather than on the system tools backends
<alkisg> Hi!!!
<LaserJock> milanbv: is that from Red Hat?
<milanbv> yeah
<milanbv> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/accountsservice/tree/
<milanbv> http://blogs.fedoraproject.org/wp/mclasen/2010/01/15/old-promises/
<LaserJock> thanks
<LaserJock> the thing that concerns me is if it would be hard to get another tool into GNOME
<LaserJock> I can see where the new users-admin is a nicer UI for the "typical" users
<milanbv> n, it's already in: http://git.gnome.org/browse/accounts-dialog/
<LaserJock> but is there enough of a distinction between home users and educational/enterprise users that a separate project is worth while?
<milanbv> what separate project? yours?
<LaserJock> good grief
<LaserJock> everybody needs to get together and come up with a single set of tools
<LaserJock> :-)
<milanbv> (that was a real question :-p )
<alkisg> About the UI, I think kuser has a lot of good ideas. The dbus backend also sounds sexy...
<ogra> milanbv, all existing tools are lacking multi user management
<alkisg> ogra: kuser supports multi user management (I think)
<milanbv> what do you mean by that?
<ogra> milanbv, and the UI simplification going on, while its beautiful doesnt make it easier
<ogra> milanbv, imagine you manage 500 users on one server
<ogra> you want to be able to group and sort in the UI
<milanbv> OK, multi = many
<milanbv> yes, that's why I was wondering
<ogra> or to apply the same set of changes to a certain set etc
<milanbv> sorting is rather trivial
<alkisg> milanbv: not only that. Suppose you want to change the groups on 100 users simultaneously
<alkisg> I.e. remove them from "audio" and put them on "sambashare"
<LaserJock> or you want to just throw a .csv at the tool and have everything synced
<milanbv> hmm, that's not on our scope, sadly
<LaserJock> right
<milanbv> that would need a separate tool
<alkisg> kuser supports that
<ogra> all existing user management apps lack such features and the focus of future improvements seems to always be on single desktop systems with in max 10 users or so
<LaserJock> milanbv: so do you think there would be support within GNOME for such a tool?
<milanbv> I'm not sure
<ogra> (/me talking about gnome desktops here)
<milanbv> the question is not really whether it would enter GNOME
<milanbv> you need somebody to work on it
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> I'm willing to put my code time to something like that
<LaserJock> little as it is
<milanbv> that may not be too hard, yes
<LaserJock> but I don't want to work on something that has no chance of getting upstream
<milanbv> do you really need it to go upstream? why?
<LaserJock> because I want GNOME to work for educators
<milanbv> that could stay a separate tool shipped with distributions like Edubuntu
<LaserJock> it's part of my secret plot to make GNOME rule the world, one school at a time .... mwhuahahahahahahaaha
<LaserJock> ok, so maybe not ;-)
<LaserJock> but I have issues with tools that just stay within a single distro
<LaserJock> I think it should be more broadly useful
<milanbv> agreedÃ¹
<milanbv> but the first step is to make it work ;-)
<LaserJock> sure
<alkisg> milanbv: are there thoughts to make the dbus-based backend a "global" solution? I.e. thoughts for it to manage LDAP users? Or to be used by other DEs as well?
<ogra> and you could get it into something like fifth toe ...
<LaserJock> the fatal flaw in my world domination plans, drat
<ogra> doesnt need to be 100% upstream that way, but would be available through upstream
<milanbv> alkisg: the system tools backends are not really maintained actually
<milanbv> I was the only person working on it
<alkisg> milanbv: I mean the new one, that uses dbus
<alkisg> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/accountsservice/tree/
<milanbv> and now mclasen seems to want to create a better D-Bus service
<milanbv> that one would support LDAP
<milanbv> so yes :-)
<milanbv> that's the plan, but it's only starting
<alkisg> So maybe we could use it as a backend too, and only design a suitable front end
<milanbv> sure, avoiding duplication is always good
<alkisg> Maybe it's worth waiting then, and not start the project now.
<milanbv> you should discuss with him what you need
<milanbv> basic support is here ATM
<ogra> ++
<milanbv> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/accountsservice/tree/data/org.freedesktop.Accounts.xml
<ogra> communication helps sometimes :)
<milanbv> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/accountsservice/tree/data/org.freedesktop.Accounts.User.xml
<milanbv> what do you need actually?
<alkisg> Personally, I'd like something like kuser (https://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/kubuntu/images/C/kubuntu-kuser.png) with multiple select / edit and with a plugins architecture
<alkisg> So that I could select 10 users and put them in group A or invoke the plugin "set a firefox bookmark" on them.
<milanbv> but that's the GUI's job
<alkisg> Yes
<milanbv> I meant: what do you need from the backend?
<alkisg> Oh
<alkisg> The information on the .xml seems enough, but is it going to be stable?
<milanbv> no
<milanbv> :-)
<alkisg> That's why I said maybe we should wait :)
<milanbv> but I'm not sure that's a great problem
<milanbv> the hard work will be the interface parts
<milanbv> you could also start with the system tools backends, and switch when it's ready
<milanbv> if the backend is abstracted enough, that won't be hard
<alkisg> Well if we're going to do our own user "abstraction" then we won't mind the backend changing, but if we're going to use the same structures as the backend, we'll need a lot of changes in the code for e.g. s-t-b => new stuff migration
<milanbv> for you, the base structure is only following /etc/passwd an /etc/group
<milanbv> so those fields are not going to change much
<milanbv> (if at all)
<alkisg> I'm not sure that's the case
<alkisg> E.g. consolekit has info on who's logged on. That may be useful for some plugins
<alkisg> Or, the "Desktop" / "ÎÏÎ¹ÏÎ¬Î½ÎµÎ¹Î± ÎµÏÎ³Î±ÏÎ¯Î±Ï" xdg dirs could also be useful
<milanbv> hmm, that's another issues
<milanbv> who's logged in is not a problem, even the GUI can do that
<milanbv> liboobs is doing it for users-admin, it's not in the system tools backends
<alkisg> So if we're going to "pass" users around to plugins, we'll need those as fields of the objects/structures...
<milanbv> are there other "special" settings other than XDG that you may need?
<alkisg> At some point "special" settings it the responsibility of the plugin (e.g. where's the firefox dir?)
<milanbv> that would be more complex
<milanbv> plugins on the backend side would really make it harder
<milanbv> you'd need another system
<alkisg> I agree, those should be frontend-plugins
<sbalneav> Sorry, was afk for a bit, workping
 * sbalneav reads scrollback
<milanbv> but on the frontend side, you wouldn't be able to install files into Firefox's dir
<milanbv> maybe you should combine two backends: the user management one, and another custom one, allowing to install some files and things like that
 * alkisg doesn't know how PolicyKit works behind the scenes, so has now clue on how to design that 
<alkisg> s/now/no
<milanbv> not very hard
<milanbv> the backend runs as root, and asks PolicyKit when a frontend wants to do something
<milanbv> it's either yes or no, PK takes care of authentication
<sbalneav> I'm having to learn pk for sabayon, so I might end up knowing something more about it soon than I know now.
<sbalneav> Which is nothing
<alkisg> Well the plugins would contain arbitrary commands. So I guess the backend should be able to take the scripts as a parameter, and execute them... Will need extra checks for security :)
<milanbv> for that, simply use gksu from the frontend, then
<alkisg> E.g. "put a firefox bookmark for the selected users"
<alkisg> The frontend shows a dialog, gets the bookmark, notifies the backend to run "addbookmark $selected_users"
<milanbv> so use libgksu to run the plugin from the frontend
<alkisg> The backend should then invoke that (python?) plugin, pass it the selected users info, and let it add the bookmark...
<milanbv> you don't need PolicyKit to run arbitrary commands
<milanbv> that's cheating :-)
<alkisg> So for each action a gksu dialog would be displayed? Wouldn't that be annoying?
<milanbv> no idea
<alkisg> Or should the whole frontend run with gksu?
<milanbv> no
<milanbv> never run GUI as root
<LaserJock> well, that might be something to consider further down the road
<milanbv> there's another
<milanbv> otion
<LaserJock> perhaps to start with you just want to limit what scripts can do
<LaserJock> and not let them be arbitrary
<milanbv> you could install plugins in a dir where your custom backends knows about them
 * alkisg looks at /usr/share/applications/sabayon.desktop... "gksu sabayon" :P :D
<milanbv> and then use a generic command that runs the plugin with some arguments
<milanbv> for example, you could send to the backend "run firefox_bookmark (["user1", "user2"], "bookmark file")"
<milanbv> and the PolicyKit action would either be "run any plugin", or "run firefox bookmark plugin"
<alkisg> That's what I meant above with "notifies the backend to run "addbookmark $selected_users""...
<alkisg> The plugins would be python modules or something like that, in standard dirs
<alkisg> And the whole users objects would need to be passed, not just the user names...
<milanbv> yeah
<milanbv> you'd need to restrict scripts that you run to a special folder where the plugins are installed
<milanbv> and you would define a user struct that you would pass to the plugins, of which they would do what they want
<milanbv> but this has to be independent from the general user management backend
<milanbv> so you need to choose your struct anyway
<milanbv> gtg
<alkisg> milanbv: so... if we did a tool like kuser (multiple selection/editing etc), which depended on the new dbus backend for user management,
<alkisg> and also a plugin mechanism (frontend/backend),
<alkisg> could the tool (without the plugins) be integrated to gnome?
<alkisg> (or with the plugins...) Or should it remain an edu* project?
<milanbv> hey, I'm not the GNOME release team :-)
<milanbv> you could ask on #release-team
<milanbv> they will give you an insight
<milanbv> anyway I'm going
<alkisg> :) thanks a lot man
<alkisg> Bye..
<milanbv> if you want to grab me, I'm on #ubuntu-desktop, or on #gst (on irc.gimp.net)
<milanbv> and file reports in Launchpad if some minor bugs could help you
<alkisg> Thanks!
 * sbalneav has been in and out of the office on work matters
<sbalneav> so what was the end result?  Are we adding things to the new users admin?
<alkisg> sbalneav: well YOU SHOULD BE HERE to ask that :D
<LaserJock> well
<alkisg> I think he said "hmm, that's not on our scope, sadly" about multiple selection etc
<sbalneav> Yeah, well, I have this thing called a JOB which allows me to do all this other stuff, and they kinda needed me :)
<LaserJock> it seemed fairly clear to me that users-admin is not where mass-user is going
<sbalneav> So, a separate project.
<alkisg> We could use their backend, though
<sbalneav> but, maybe we can use their PK backends
<LaserJock> I asked rick spencer (Desktop Team manager) about the Red Hat tool and if Ubuntu had any plans
<sbalneav> right
<LaserJock> he basically said they didn't but they'd likely just use whatever was the GNOME default tool
<LaserJock> so ....
<sbalneav> So, we'll use their pk backend for adding the users and getting auth
<sbalneav> have a more "large # of users" frontend
<sbalneav> and a plugin system.
<sbalneav> It'll be an Edubuntu sponsored project, and be something unique that we add to the process.
<sbalneav> Unfortunately, Ahmuk-jr's not here to see it :)
<alkisg> A good user manager is a much needed tool. But I don't think it's my first priority at this point. E.g. I think fat clients are a lot more important...
<alkisg> Maybe we could propose kuser for some time, and see how that goes?
<alkisg> I don't know why, but I have the feeling that for the next LTS some new tools or backends will be there.
<sbalneav> alkisg: Sure, I wasn't even going think about looking at this until after we got close to lucid release.
 * alkisg also started his phd and is already behind schedule, so after lucid is released will devote most time in it
<sbalneav> I've got enough on my plate ATM.  But post lucid, it could be a "killer feature" for edubuntu, and we could still give it to lucidusers via the edubuntu-ppa's
<sbalneav> So over my lunchtime walk, I solved the most important problem with this user manager we're talking about.
<sbalneav> The name.
<sbalneav> See'um
<sbalneav> Simple, Elegant, Extensible User Manager
<sbalneav> Now that I've solved the hard part, the rest should be easy ;)
<alkisg> Heh... I'll do the icon
<alkisg> Now with the most 2 difficult parts done, we just need a humble programmer to do the monkey typing thing
<sbalneav> Like I say, I'll take that one on.  Post lucid.
 * alkisg will help, do most of the plugins
<sbalneav> I'll start a wiki page tonight, point you at it in the morning.
<sbalneav> What I mapped out in my mind over lunch is that we do *very little* natively in the gui.  Very simple: add, delete, modify users & groups
<sbalneav> most functionality will come from plugins.
<sbalneav> I'll put my thoughts in order tonight, get 'em on a wiki page.
<alkisg> bbiab
<LaserJock> sbalneav: are you putting this on the Gnome wiki or Edubuntu wiki?
<sbalneav> LaserJock: edubuntu wiki for the momen
<sbalneav> t
<LaserJock> so is the idea to use accountservice (new DBUS thingy from red hat) or system-tools-backend?
<LaserJock> it's not clear to me how plugins will be implemented in the UI
<LaserJock> I would think a really good plugin framework might be a bit difficult to do
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Well, I'd have to look at accountservice, see what it does.
<sbalneav> as for the ui....
<sbalneav> right-click context menu brings up list of plugins avaialble
<LaserJock> you sure that's that'll work?
<LaserJock> what if I want to extend in different ways
<LaserJock> what happens if you end up with 50 scripts
<LaserJock> so if I write a .csv import/export plugin
<LaserJock> I'd want it to show up in a "Add" dialog
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Then you have a looooong context menu :)
<LaserJock> I really think there should be limits on plugins
<LaserJock> maybe it's paranoia about other apps I've seen with "plugin mania"
<sbalneav> There are.  Screen resolution :)
<LaserJock> one could classify plugins
<LaserJock> an app I've worked on before, Avogadro, has like 3-4 different plugin types
<LaserJock> depending on what they do
<LaserJock> some go in a menu, some get added to the toolbar, etc.
<LaserJock> so user/group manipulation scripts sound good for right-click context menus
<sbalneav> right
<LaserJock> import/export scripts could show up in a central "Add/Remove" dialog
<LaserJock> maybe there could be searching/grepping plugins?
<LaserJock> this is where I'd really like to know what kinds of things people actually do with users
<sbalneav> Possibly.  Like I say, I'll get my thoughts down on the wiki tonight, then we can start kicking 'em around.
<LaserJock> it'd be awesome to make this usable for sabayon and dynamics menus
<LaserJock> sbalneav: can sabayon be launched straight from the edit button?
<sbalneav> Sabayon isn't account management
<sbalneav> it's profile management.
<sbalneav> lets not write a kitchen sink here.
<LaserJock> no, no
<LaserJock> what I was thinking
<LaserJock> was you have 2 possibilities
<LaserJock> 1) a user script that runs "edit the profile for this user" from the user management
<LaserJock> 2) a option in sabayon that launches the user management to do user shuffling, etc.
<LaserJock> so making them a bit integrated so that the whole user management landscape is a bit more cohesive
<sbalneav> Well, we can talk about that.
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> you know
<LaserJock> it might be possible to use a simple python backend until this accountservice thing is stable/packaged for Ubuntu
<sbalneav> Probably first implementation will just use gksu
<LaserJock> it might be easier than trying to use system-tools-backends
<sbalneav> ignore pk alltogether.
<LaserJock> well, yeah
<LaserJock> I'm just talking about doing the actual user/group manipulation
<LaserJock> then when a newer/better backend arrives we can just swap out
<alkisg> Well, for starters, the python passwd bindings seem to work fine
<alkisg> #import pwd, spwd, grp, csv
<LaserJock> right
<sbalneav> dgroos: ping
<dgroos> sbalneav: pong
<dgroos> (I've always loved ping pong)
<dgroos> Further question about using that data collection software on thin clients--they responded to my post this morning, and said that they are interested, but that they've had a hard time getting it to work.  They referred me to a web page...
<dgroos> which had this comment: "If you are using USB, make sure the environment is set up so the clients address local USB ports rather than those on the server."  Is this the way it would work with using their software as a local app?
<dgroos> sbalneav: I've been reading today's irc--lots of important talking about account/user management.
<dgroos> I've got some opinions--am looking forward to the wiki page that alkisg puts out--I hope I can add profitably (metaphorically speaking) to it.
<dgroos> I'm heading home, will be back on this evening, adios.
#edubuntu 2010-01-20
<dgroos> ping: sbalneav
<sbalneav> Evening all
<stgraber> hey sbalneav
<sbalneav> dgroos_: Boo
<dgroos_> hoo?
<dgroos_> ;)
<dgroos_> I'm currently trying to get the data collection interface software working on thin clients.  et tu?
<sbalneav> Writing up the wiki page on the user management tool.
<dgroos_> Cool.  as mentioned I'll want to add my 2 centavos
<dgroos_> I need libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a.  What should I download from this page: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a ?  Any thing?
<sbalneav> Found it quite surprising that the one educator indicated that teachers WOULDN'T want to be in the same channel as us "talking geek"
<sbalneav> I guess community building doesn't include the people who are putting together your distro :)
<dgroos> sbalneav: ???
<sbalneav> dgroos: I was just saying that I was surprised that the one teacher responded to your mail saying that teachers WOULDN'T want to be in this channel where we'd be "speaking geek" :)
<dgroos> sbalneav: I'm working through them, trying to summarize and respond--there's ton's of good/wise info there.
<dgroos> Ahhh... fear of geek-speak!  Perhaps. and, perhaps it's not all bad for non-techies to be exposed to the labor, the inspiration and knowledge involved in the creation of this 'free' software.
<sbalneav> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/NewUserAdminTool
<dgroos> gtg, thanks I'll finish up my response tomorrow and check out the page! g'night all!
<dgroos> Good Morning All
<dgroos> I'm trying to install a program into the chroot and it gives the message:
<dgroos> "/var/lib/dpkg/info/vstloggerpro.postinst: 40: update-desktop-database: not found" and I googled the latter part of this message and came with nothing helpful...  Ideas?
<ogra> dgroos, apt-get install desktop-file-utils in the chroot
<dgroos> ogra: Thanks!
<dgroos> Is it OK to control + C in the middle of rebuilding with ltsp-update-image?
<ogra> you have to do it again and you should look for idling mounts after doing that
<ogra> i'm not sure the script has proper trap handling builtin
<highvoltage> when I isually press ^C there it just stops the mksquashfs part and the unmounting and the rest of the stuff still happens fine
<ogra> ok
<ogra> i wasnt sure we added a trap function to the script
<highvoltage> I think it's mksquashfs that does it, because it you press ^C during it then it says you have to press it again to stop the process
<ogra> well there are tmp mounts in the script the script itself needs to care for iirc
<dgroos> Hmmm... I decided patience was a virtue at the moment :)
<ogra> usually scripts should have a trap function that cleans up after it if signals are recieved
<ogra> be it from kill or from keypresses
<ogra> i'm doing such trap functions in all my scripts nowadays but didnt do that when i did ltsp development, so there they might still be missing
<dgroos> OK, it finished.  I tried the apt-get install desptio-file-utils in the chroot and got the message that "can not write loge, openpty () failed (/dev/pts not mounted)".  Did I miss something?
<highvoltage> I should adopt that habbit too
<ogra> no, just ignore that
<alkisg> Is there anything mounted while ltsp-update-image is running?
<dgroos> desptio=desktop
<ogra> alkisg, as i said, i'm not sure (its so long ago that i saw that code) but its good practice to have a trap function anyway
<alkisg> Sure, I do that too
<dgroos> alkisg: were you asking me?  Not sure what you mean by 'anything mounted'?
<alkisg> dgroos: no no ignore the question :)
<ogra> dgroos, he meant me :)
<dgroos> :) great!
<alkisg> Wow, squid-deb-proxy... nice catch, ogra ;)
<alkisg> I have that as part of my sch-scripts, but it'd be nice to have it by default in ubuntu
<dgroos> Install worked!  thanks :)
<dgroos> I was wondering, shouldn't the 'desktop-file-utils' be automatically installed into the chroot?  It sounds like it's a rather basic package.  At least, shouldn't there be a message when dpkg -i fails to do so?
<ogra> dgroos, btw, "apt-cache search update-desktop-database" would have told you the package name ;)
<dgroos> ahhhh, I'll have to remember that for next time! ;)
<alkisg> dgroos: you may want to file a bug on the package that you tried to install, to put desktop-file-utils in its dependencies
<dgroos> Excellent, I'll do that!
<dgroos> As I'm writing to them, I'd like to address their concern with adding thin client support, that: "If you are using USB, make sure the environment is set up so the clients address local USB ports rather than those on the server."
<dgroos> If we use a program as a localapp, will it address the USB port locally?
<ogra> it cant reach any othert usb port :)
<ogra> *other
<dgroos> ogra: ? makes sense, then why do they say this: http://www.vernier.com/til/1071.html ?
<ogra> no idea, i dont know the software
<ogra> but if you install in the chroot all the app can see is local usb anyway
<dgroos> OK  I'll get back to them with the inadequacy of that page and ask for clarification.  I'm about to try the software as localapp.  I'll let y'all know how it works :)
<ogra> they probably dont know about localapps :)
<dgroos> speaking about localapps... I can't get this new program to launch in localapps.  I've got firefox, openoffice and others working in localapps.  I've followed the directions on the LTSPLocalAppsJaunty page in the wiki and my own notes on my blog.  I'm missing something.  Can anyone help?
<alkisg> dgroos: does this program have a name?
<alkisg> :)
<dgroos> indeed!  loggerpro :) I added both 'loggerpro' and the location in the chroot: /usr/local/bin/loggerpro...
<dgroos> (added that to the .lts)
<dgroos> when I try 'ltsp-localapps loggerpro' or 'ltsp-localapps /usr/local/bin/loggerpro' I get nary a visible burp from the system.
<alkisg> dgroos: try ltsp-localapps xterm, and then run loggerpro from that xterm
<alkisg> dgroos: is there a linux version of that program? I don't see it here: http://www.vernier.com/downloads/lp3demo.html
<dgroos> do I just type in, 'loggerpro' in that terminal window?
<alkisg> In that black xterm, yes. Or whatever the command is.
<alkisg> This way you'll see the errors, if any.
<alkisg> But is that a WINE program?!
<dgroos> here's the address: http://www2.vernier.com/linux/lpl.beta.tar
<alkisg> Ah, linux public beta... nice http://www.vernier.com/soft/lpl/
<dgroos> to get to the link I sent, you register and they send it to you.
<dgroos> right, not wine.
<dgroos> I get the error:
<dgroos> "Working dir /home/dgroos
<dgroos> Top Level Folder: '/usr/local/share/LoggerPro/'
<dgroos> Our runtime support folder is: /tmp/VST_Support_SqClX2/
<dgroos> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::logic_error'
<dgroos>    what(): basic_string::_S_construct NULL not valid
<dgroos> Aborted
<dgroos> then went back to the prompt...  Does this mean anything to you?
<sbalneav> Morning all
<sbalneav> highvoltage: No, the person to talk to about theat would be CAN-o-SPAM in #ltsp
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I found one on the competition page, thanks
<sbalneav> cool
<alkisg> Good morning sbalneav... dgroos: does the program run normally if you install it on the server?
<ogra> dgroos, i guess thats a binary ? seems like its compiled for a different libc version or so
<dgroos> Good morn sbalneav.
<sbalneav> highvoltage: Could you move that for me?
<dgroos> alkisg: I was using it beautifully on my karmic machine at home last night, if that's what you mean?  It simply installed and worked.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: hmm?
<dgroos> ogra: worked on karmic--does that answer?
<alkisg> dgroos: well see what ogra said. Or maybe it's still missing some library. I'd just mail the company, mentioning the output....
<ogra> dgroos, then some lib is likely missing
<ogra> smells like QT
<sbalneav> highvoltage: Wiki police post.
<ogra> or other C++ crap
<highvoltage> sbalneav: ah! yes
<dgroos> I'll try to run on jaunty server to make sure it isn't a jaunty/karmic issue, then I can guess it is a thin client or perhaps localapp issue.  Thanks so much for your time alkisg and ogra.
<dgroos> ... and good day to you all... students on their way in 7 minutes... :)
<alkisg> dgroos: if you can use a modern PC as a thin client, with e.g. 2 Gb of ram on it,
<alkisg> then you could try installing things on it live, to verify that it's a library thing
<ogra> dgroos, i'd start with a check if libstdc++6 is installed (and install that if its not)
<alkisg> (e.g. alt+ctrl+f2 => apt-get install ubuntu-standard)
<ogra> libstdc++6 usually provides such basic C++ stuff
<dgroos> will try/checkout!
<alkisg> highvoltage: you would mind if I: (1) stored somewhere in the chroot that the user selected to build a fat client, (2) use that value to deside if LTSP_FATCLIENT should default to True or False, and (3) of course allow the user to override the "autodetected" LTSP_FATCLIENT value from lts.conf?
<alkisg> highvoltage: the goal is to be able to use fat clients without *always* requiring an lts.conf.
<sbalneav> On the wiki, how do you see diff's from a previous version?
<sbalneav> I'm more used to foswiki, that provides the history
<alkisg> Which wiki? sf or ubuntu?
<sbalneav> ubuntu
<alkisg> Look for "page history"
<alkisg> There you can then compare versions
<highvoltage> alkisg: hmm, as far as I understand it's purposely designed so that you can mix fat and thin clients and that it would use thin by default
<sbalneav> It's not under page actions
<alkisg> sbalneav: link to the page that you want?
<sbalneav> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/NewUserAdminTool
<alkisg> highvoltage: in that case you would *require* an lts.conf
<highvoltage> alkisg: I guess it's probably something to discuss with sbalneav/stgraber/vagrant, I could live with it either way
<alkisg> So why not allow for an extra case that would work without lts.conf?
<alkisg> stgraber, sbalneav, some opinion in this? ^^^
<ogra> alkisg, admins wouldnt like if the user could select by default, make that optional
<alkisg> ogra, select?
<ogra> i.e. based on an lts.conf option
<ogra> your (3) case above
<ogra> "and (3) of course allow the user to override the "autodetected" LTSP_FATCLIENT value from lts.conf"
<alkisg> ogra, I meant "sysadmin", not user. My mistake.
<ogra> ah
<alkisg> The users can't modify lts.conf.
<ogra> no, it sounded like you wanted to bring up some selection in front of the user :)
<sbalneav> ogra: On the ubuntu wiki, do you know how to view page history?
<ogra> sbalneav, info
<highvoltage> alkisg: since it's still very new, it would be better to change it now rather than later, there's probably a good reason why there's an LTSP_FAT_CLIENT in lts.conf, let's check first
<sbalneav> ah, thanks
<sbalneav> that was.... non intuitive
<sbalneav> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/NewUserAdminTool?action=diff&rev2=3&rev1=2
<alkisg> highvoltage: well, to enable the sysadmin to select if he wants the fat client of the thin client behavior
<sbalneav> heh, guy added another button, doesn't explain what he wants it to do
<sbalneav> "migrate/backup"
<ogra> migrate a backup :)
<sbalneav> Backups aren't part of an adduser tool.
<ogra> or migrate to a backup :)
<sbalneav> backups are backups
<ogra> backups are automatically taken if you use std distro tools, look in /var/backups :)
<ogra> especially for passwd and the like
<sbalneav> Let me come over to your place with a hammer and smash your hard drive.  They you can get your backups from /var/backup and restore them :)
<alkisg> highvoltage: There are 3 cases: (1) full thin => we don't touch it, we don't care, (2) mixed thin/fat, (3) full fat.
<alkisg> Right now, in (2) and (3) we *require* an lts.conf.
<alkisg> With my "autodetection proposal" we will only require an lts.conf in (2)...
<ogra> sbalneav, pfft
 * ogra goes back to u-boot
<alkisg> highvoltage: so I think we gain something without losing anything
<highvoltage> alkisg: that does sound reasonable
<alkisg> highvoltage: ok, I'll do it / commit it, and if you see that you don't like it for some reason, we can remove it afterwards. We still have time until feature freeze ;)
<highvoltage> alkisg: ok, thanks
<alkisg> Thank you :)
<stgraber> alkisg: I wouldn't turn on LTSP_FATCLIENT to True by default when built with --fat-client as regular thin client is still supported even with fat client support turned in
<stgraber> alkisg: I'd probably show a message at the end of ltsp-build-client instead telling the user to write a lts.conf
<alkisg> stgraber: "as regular thin client is still supported" ? Sorry I don't understand the meaning of that, could you elaborate?
<alkisg> If the user specifically requests to build a fat client chroot, what advantage do we have to not turn LTSP_FATCLIENT on by default?
<alkisg> (btw, here's the code for what I'm proposing: http://paste.ubuntu.com/359609/ )
<stgraber> well, my use case for fat clients is multimedia labs
<stgraber> obviously I don't have all my thin clients in that lab so I want all of them to boot as regular thin client and only a few powerful ones to start everything locally (fat client)
<alkisg> stgraber: and? how does that default give you any trouble?
<alkisg> [Default]
<alkisg> LTSP_FATCLIENT=False
<alkisg> [PowerFullPC]
<alkisg> LTSP_FATCLIENT=True
<alkisg> You're in case (2), mixed mode setup. You HAVE to have an lts.conf
<alkisg> Why should you force someone with ONLY fat clients to have an lts.conf as well?
<stgraber> alkisg: hmm, ok, perhaps doing something like: touching some file when --fat-client is used, checking in ltsp_config for that file and if it's there, then set LTSP_FATCLIENT to True + displaying a warning in ltsp-build-client that all thin clients will actually boot as fat client
<alkisg> stgraber: ok, I've done all that (except for the warning), see the link above
<alkisg> I'll put a warning and commit (I'm currently testing)
<alkisg> Is that ok?
<alkisg>         # Notify the user about the different defaults
<alkisg>         echo "--fat-client was specified, all clients will boot as fat clients by default."
<alkisg>         echo "To modify this behavior, put LTSP_FATCLIENT=False in lts.conf."
<alkisg> Commited.
<stgraber> alkisg: you'd need to use the gettext functions to have that translated though
<Lns> sbalneav: re: ldap tools... imho there will never be a nice, easy ldap UI that is infinitely customizable...that's the same with a LOT of really good linux tools
<Lns> Maybe the only thing we *can* do is cookie-cutter it, for our scenarios (education/school setups)...if someone needs/wants more, they need to learn the real tools
<alkisg> Also, in big schools with lots of users, LDAP etc, they'll also have real sysadmins which should be able to learn the real tools ;)
<Lns> hey alkisg
<alkisg> Hey Lns, how's it going?
<mhall119|work> alkisg: I wouldn't bank on that
<Lns> Not too bad
<mhall119|work> I don't think there's a "real" sysadmin in my entire school district
 * Lns concurs with mhall119|work 
<alkisg> mhall119|work: so who's handling ldap?
<mhall119|work> If anything, they're on AD
<mhall119|work> but likely not even that
<Lns> alkisg: potentially nobody.. someone might come along and say "wow ldap would be nice, then everyone could log into everything with one account!" and then everyone else says "hmm" and goes to ldap.org or whatever...then they forget about it ;)
 * alkisg is no longer worried about ldap, now with the fat clients plugin :D
<Lns> alkisg: ?
<stgraber> MEETING TIME
<Lns> what?
<Lns> for us?
<highvolt1ge> oh wow
<stgraber> it's 7pm UTC, Edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
<highvolt1ge> what happened to the last 20 minutes!?
<stgraber> mgariepy: ^
<mgariepy> hi everyone
<stgraber> sbalneav: ping
<stgraber> alkisg: ping
<stgraber> nixternal: ping
<alkisg> pong
<alkisg> Oooh meeting :)
<sbalneav> stgraber: pong
<vmlintu> I had not noticed the edubuntu-menu-editor before. Is there some way planned to distribute the menus to large number of machines?
<stgraber> vmlintu: there'll be profile import/export as .tar.gz
<stgraber> vmlintu: for bigger deployment, you can package the profiles
<vmlintu> stgraber: so it'll be matter of distributing the profile.tar.gzs?
<stgraber> vmlintu: yep, the user can then import it and assign the menu to a system group
<highvoltage> I stopped taking notes about 20 minuts into the meeting so I'll just scroll back and finish it up for the list :)
<stgraber> highvoltage: hehe, thanks a lot for taking care of that.
 * sbalneav staggers back in, props himself up at the bar.
 * Lns puts the lamp shade back on sbalneav's head
<sbalneav> Barkeep!  A nice Stout on tap for myself, and a round for everyone else in here!
<Lns> woo! beer at noon for me!
<sbalneav> It's always noon somewhere
<Lns> (T)alk to bartender, (H)ear Seth Able, ...
<sbalneav> Winding your way down on Baker Street
<sbalneav> Light in your head, and dead on your feet
<sbalneav> Well another crazy day
<sbalneav> You drink the night away
<sbalneav> And forget about everything
<sbalneav> ....anyone?
 * sbalneav sings alone
 * Lns picks up a bass
<Lns> moodlecommons.org looks promising, but not a whole heck of a lot of content yet
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, I guess all of us are getting a bit sleepy:
<highvoltage> 21:22 < stgraber> As most of you probably have read, I became an Ubuntu Membership Board member yesterday and
<highvoltage> none of us even picked up that that should've been Ubuntu Developers Board :)
<highvoltage> or developers membership board, even
<vmlintu> stgraber: We've experimenting with some scripts that create menus on the fly when user logs in. The menu rules are distributed from a web server so that the same rules can be used in multiple systems
<vmlintu> stgraber: I think there was also a test to distribute sabayon profiles with the same thing
<stgraber> highvoltage: hehe ;) though I then used DMB in the next sentence :)
<stgraber> vmlintu: yeah, either you use some custom scripts of yours or use an actual configuration manager like puppet to do it
<vmlintu> stgraber: yeah, I've been using puppet for that too..
<vmlintu> What's the status of the menu-editor? Is it ready for use yet if I give it a try?
<stgraber> mgariepy: ^ Is that only the profile manager that's not working yet ?
<mgariepy> huh i need to do some cleanup. everything seam to work. (i'm doing the clean up right now.)
<mgariepy> vmlintu, i can ping you when my code is cleaner,
<mgariepy> in maybe 30 minutes or so if i don't have an emergency
<vmlintu> mgariepy: thanks, I'll have to see if how our experiments might work with it
<sbalneav> Goldarnit, how the heck do you print decimals in python without the 'Decimal(13,2)'
<mgariepy> vmlintu, you associate menus from groups or something like that or on a user basis ?
<sbalneav> I just want 13.2
<mgariepy> out of curiosity ;)
<vmlintu> mgariepy: The currently running system has menu profiles and those are assigned to groups.. The experiments are based on tags - tags can be associated with users, groups, terminals etc, but this is all experimental and proof-of-concept
<stgraber> sbalneav: can you give more details ?
<mgariepy> vmlintu, ok, have you ever used desktop-profiles before ?
<sbalneav> I've got a number that's a Decimal type in python
<sbalneav> as in Decimal(13.2)
<vmlintu> mgariepy: what you mean with desktop-profiles?
<sbalneav> When I print it as a %s, I get 'Decimal(13.2)'
<sbalneav> as opposed to just 13.2
<mgariepy> desktop-profiles is a set of script to manage different profiles ( menu, gconf, kde, etc.. ) for users on a system.
<mgariepy> it's a package in the repos.
<stgraber> >>> print("test %s" % Decimal(10))
<stgraber> test 10
<stgraber> sbalneav: ^
<stgraber> >>> print("test %s" % Decimal('10.3'))
<stgraber> test 10.3
<vmlintu> mgariepy: I think we tried it ages ago, but back then it didn't work for us. I haven't checked it recently.
<stgraber> >>> print("test %s" % 10.3)
<stgraber> test 10.3
<sbalneav> Hmm, why isn't that working for me :(
<mgariepy> vmlintu, ok, i use this to manage menu for schools district and it's rock-solid :)
<sbalneav> nm, my value was in a list. duh
<sbalneav> needed a [0] :)
<vmlintu> mgariepy: I'll have to check how it'd work now. Our biggest problem is that the admins at school have never seen command line and they should be able to modify their menus and desktops..
<mgariepy> ok, i see.
<vmlintu> mgariepy: that's why we created some web based tools to do that and now I'm just trying to get rid of those.. It actually turned out that the most important feature of the tool was the ability to put web links in the menu easily..
<alkisg> highvoltage: "â¢ edubuntu-desktop doesn't currently work in fat client chroot (hmm, do we have a bug for this?)" ==> it does work fine, just with the -l in umount
<alkisg> So we're OK as long as we keep the -l there...
<vmlintu> mgariepy: are you using gnome or kde desktops?
<mgariepy> vmlintu, gnome
<mgariepy> kde4 doen't work so great with ltsp :)
<mgariepy> for now, with hardy we were using kde3.
<mgariepy> but the menus are the same. it's in the freedesktop sandard
<vmlintu> yup, kde4 got a bit out of hand..
<alkisg> What exactly are the problems with KDE and LTSP?
<vmlintu> I just updated the hardy boxes to firefox 3.5.8 and openoffice 3.1.1
<highvoltage> alkisg: aah, the -l isn't necessary if we add "ls -l /proc/[0-9]*/exe 2>/dev/zero | grep $ROOT | awk '{print $8}' | cut -d / -f3 | xargs kill -9 2>/dev/zero || true" before the unmount command
<alkisg> highvoltage: I've been trying that all day yesterday. No sugar.
<highvoltage> alkisg: I tested it earler (not with edubuntu but with ubuntu-desktop), and it could unmount just fine without -l
<highvoltage> alkisg: I'll check again with edubuntu-desktop then to see what doesn't unmount...
<highvoltage> I mean, what locks it
<alkisg> highvoltage: yes, I know, I've done tens of tests in the last days
<highvoltage> alkisg: I believe you!
<alkisg> highvoltage: see the logs in #ltsp, you'll see what we tried yesterday with stgraber + ogra
<alkisg> Bottom line, I killed almost everything in sight (including X and many services) but still $CHROOT/proc refused to umount
<highvoltage> alkisg: are you sure you used $CHROOT/proc?
<highvoltage> alkisg: because that will try to unmount the server's /proc
<alkisg> Yes, I have detailed logs of everything I tried
<alkisg> highvoltage: no that was just a shortcut here to avoid writing /opt/ltsp/i386/proc :)
<highvoltage> ok
<mgariepy> alkisg, the kde4 interface was sluggy because of visual effect, usb key aren't showing on the desktop
<alkisg> mgariepy: ok, I imagine it won't be very hard to disable the effects. I knew about the usb devices, I don't know any workarounds. Is there anything more?
<alkisg> (thanks, btw)
<mgariepy> alkisg, stuff like this. it's been a while since i last tested it. i think that the last release i tested was intrepid.
<highvoltage> alkisg: yep, I trust and believe you, I still just want to take a look at it
<alkisg> highvoltage: sure, do that, I hope you'll get somewhere.
<alkisg> I think stgraber tried on an lxc, I didn't hear of any better news....
<alkisg> highvoltage: I have a feeling it might be that the chroot is trying to start hal and it's reusing the server's existing daemon or something like that. So what I want to try next is to modify $PATH and to provide fake upstart wrappers, so that upstart daemons do not start in the chroot.
<stgraber> alkisg: it worked in LXC, so it's something in Edubuntu desktop that must be causing the issue for you
<alkisg> stgraber: was that with an edubuntu chroot?
<stgraber> yep
<alkisg> OK, so it takes both of them (server+chroot) to cause the problem... :-/
<highvoltage> alkisg: ah, I'm doing it on a machine that's only a server
<highvoltage> alkisg: I'll let you know what happens...
<alkisg> highvoltage: does it have hal installed? I wonder what would happen if you started it...
<highvoltage> alkisg: I'll try without it first, and then with it
<dgroos> alkisg: the kids have gone... :)
<dgroos> I just got access to 'the room' where the server is, tried the program, loggerpro, locally on the server, and it worked great.
<alkisg> Well... when my wife tells me that, I understand its meaning, now I don't know what to think :P
<dgroos> hmmm... probably not the same thing!!!
<dgroos> :)
<mhall119|work> ew
<dgroos> OK, so, I've been trying to make it work as a localapp, but I'm not famous for being able to take some program, put it on the chroot, update the chroot, add the address of the program to the .lts file, and then launch it with a, 'ltsp-localapps program-address'.
<dgroos> I can't even get a hiccup from the computer when I type 'ltsp-localapps loggerpro'.  However, 'ltsp-localapps firefox-3.5' will launch ff 3.5 quite nicely as a local app.  Am I missing something?
<Lns> vmlintu: I dunno if this would help but a while back I wrote a simple script to create a URL based .desktop file (for distribution on user desktops)...I can pastebin it if you want
<Lns> It uses Zenity so it has pretty dialogue boxes and all
<vmlintu> Lns: it asks for url and creates the desktop file?
<Lns> yeah
<alkisg> dgroos: start with ltsp-localapps xterm, and then run that logerapp from inside the xterm
<mgariepy> vmlintu, i just pushed the code on LP
<vmlintu> Lns: I've got scripts doing the same, but it'd be interesting to see as there's no gui in them
<dgroos> (is there a way to get the error message to print to something I can just copy and paste?  This doesn't work inside the xterm)
<Lns> vmlintu: it doesn't put them in the xdg menu hierarchy or anything but it could be easily done by extending the script, i'm sure..  http://pastebin.com/m2b07c491
<dgroos> OK, it says:
<dgroos> I'll put in pastebin...
 * alkisg demonstrates the beauty of the cat command to Lns: http://pastebin.com/m36498480
<Lns> alkisg: :) ty!
<alkisg> ;)
<Lns> so it cats until it sees the string EOF?
<Lns> weird, i've only seen < used in reference to a file
<highvoltage> it's quite common in scripts
<vmlintu> Lns: thanks
<highvoltage> Lns: are you familiar with the concept of Useless Use of Cat? (UUoC)
<alkisg> Lns: man sh => press slash to start searching => write: here-document and press enter
<Lns> brb
<vmlintu> mgariepy: Just pulled it and menueditor seems run and do something.. Cancelling the save seems not to work (don't know if it should..)
<mgariepy> oops ;)was an indentation problem ;)
<mgariepy> rev41 correct it hehe
<vmlintu> python is not meant for me..
<vmlintu> I never get the indentations right
<highvoltage> heh, that for me is the best part of python
<Lns> highvoltage: oh ha ha =p
<Lns> alkisg: thx for that =)
 * Lns is still learning
<alkisg> np... one tip per day, in two months you'll be an upstream hacker :)
<vmlintu> mgariepy: is some kind of setup needed for profilemanager?
<mgariepy> yeah some directory need to be created. : /etc/edubuntu-menueditor, /usr/share/edubuntu-menueditor/menus
<mgariepy> and desktop-profile should be installed too
<Lns> alkisg: ;) Also I'm reading this awesome guide: http://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashGuide
<vmlintu> I better leave that for tomorrow.. or later today, however you put it..
<mgariepy> maybe tomorrow i'll have the time to package it.
<alkisg> Lns: try not to become a bashist :D (it has a lot of stuff not supported by other shells) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DashAsBinSh
<mgariepy> by the weekend it's gonna be in a ppa or something. i'll post an edubuntu-user post when it's done.
<dgroos> alkisg: finally! many interruptions... http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/359775
<alkisg> dgroos: yeah, that's the same error you posted some hours ago...
<alkisg> Did you try installing libs etc?
<vmlintu> yuhuu, finally I got oauth consumer libraries to obey my code..
<Lns> alkisg: =) I take it all with the intention of being portable, of course
<alkisg> Lns, yup
<dgroos> Yes.  Why would it give the same error, trying to run it on the thin client, not as localapp, and on thin client as a localapp.  If the issue was thin client (not localapp), shouldn't running as local app have done something different?
<mgariepy> cya another day everybody.
<highvoltage> dgroos: worked fine with edubuntu-desktop on a plain server, I'll install hal and let it run again
<highvoltage> oh,
<highvoltage> hal is already the newest version.
<highvoltage> dgroos: I have hal installed on the server
<alkisg> highvoltage: I guess you mean me... :)
<alkisg> highvoltage: my test environment where I have the problem is edubuntu lucid server + edubuntu lucid chroot.....
<alkisg> Goodnight all
<highvoltage> dgroos: yes sorry I did mean alkisg :)
<dgroos> and to all, a good eve (morning, night, afternoon, etc)
#edubuntu 2010-01-21
<nixternal> stgraber: pongers
<nixternal> stgraber: I am around, gonna have dinner...bbiaf
<xnox> Bug #510407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 510407 in edubuntu-meta "Please consider including Bible Study software" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510407
<xnox> Hello, what is edubuntu-seed inclusion process?
<xnox> I've filed bug against edubuntu-meta package and I got redirected to brainstorm.....
<xnox> I'm the maintainer of the proposed packages in Debian & Ubuntu =) and I'd love to see them part of the edubuntu seeds
 * xnox was under impression seed includes are on launchpad now.....
<crimsun> xnox: I think Montel perhaps was too hasty in rejecting that bug report
<crimsun> xnox: nonetheless, it deserves discussion on the edubuntu-devel mailing list
<xnox> Ok =) I'll send a mail there
<xnox> Can I post to it without being subscribed?
<crimsun> sure, but it'll be moderated
<xnox> Hmmm. Ok I'll subscribe =)
<xnox> crimsun: sent an email hopefully will get some feedback before the FF =)
<xnox> Have a good day everyone
<sbalneav> Evening all
<sbalneav> Any edubuntu regulars or council members in here?
<sbalneav> besides me and stgraber
<sbalneav> ?
<stgraber> alkis will probably appear a bit later, highvoltage might be sleeping (he said he'd stay up late but maybe not this late).
<stgraber> Jordan doesn't seem to be around
<stgraber> nixternal: ?
<nixternal> yes
<sbalneav> I'd be interested on your thoughts on the edubuntu-devel thread.
<nixternal> which one? let me guess, bible software?
<sbalneav> yeah.  See my response?
<nixternal> yeah, good response
<sbalneav> I was saying to stgraber, there's currently countries, iran comes to mind, where owning a copy of the bible is illegal.
<nixternal> reply sent
<sbalneav> If we ship it on the dvd, and someone downloads it, and gets arrested, I'd hate to have someone's incarceration on my conscience.  Let alone what legal liability there may be for us.
<nixternal> which is interesting you brought that up...I just read about public flogging in Saudia Arabia for a teenage girl with a cell phone in school, 2 boys were caught reading the Christian Bible and were flogged as well...I would hate to be the reason for such a thing
<sbalneav> And I can't see how we can legitimately say, "Yes, we're shipping the bible but we don't want to include an electronic copy of Dianetics"
<sbalneav> I think it's a slippery slope that heads downhill very steeply
<nixternal> there used to be Ichthux which was a Christian distro based off of Kubuntu, of which I worked on with raphink in Kubuntu and Jordan even pitched in back then iirc...there was that other Ubuntu one, then a Muslim one, and even Satanic Ubuntu, which had a really cool looking GDM screen :)
<nixternal> speaking of Dianetics, I need to try and read through that
<sbalneav> Yeah, I'm all in favour of Religious themed distros: but you download them *by choice*.
<sbalneav> You know what you're getting
<nixternal> right
<crimsun> honestly, creating a metapackage for it (if one doesn't exist) is the better route
<nixternal> I might be a christian, but I am pretty open minded....I love open source, so I obviously believe in choice...I try to stay away from the nut job fundamentalists like Jordan :p
<nixternal> I would talk to raphink, as he was doing a lot of upstream work with christian software back in the day...I am willing to bet he would be done for a nice christian metapackage, which is honestly a good idea I think
<sbalneav> crimsun: I think there are some metapackages, and that's a good suggestion for them that may strike a good balance.
<sbalneav> But then it's on the archives, and can be installed or not by choice.
<sbalneav> The dvd should, IMHO, remain secular to reach the widest audience.
<sbalneav> an edubuntu-edu-chritian, edubuntu-edu-muslim, edubuntu-edu-zoroastrian metapackage would allow for easy post-install customization.
<nixternal> I wouldn't do that
<nixternal> I would do like a "christian-apps" or such metapackage
<stgraber> Also something that disturbed me a bit is that currently Edubuntu is being mostly used by relatively young children, so I'm not sure that including religious content (whatever the religion) is very appropriate. I'd consider having these packages installed with an "educational goals" only if it was a ALL or NOTHING kind of choice (as in, learning about religions). Other than that (but that clearly depends on where you've been raised I guess) re
 * stgraber didn't remember he typed that much ... ;)
<sbalneav> I just posted the sugestion of the metapackages to the list.
<sbalneav> I think that's the way to go.
<stgraber> ok, so these would be meta-packages that'd only be in the archive, not be available as install task and won't be seeded on the DVD, right ?
<sbalneav> right
<sbalneav> So downloading and installing them is an act of Freedom of Religion, combined with Knowledge and Consent (one assumes).
<nixternal> I personally wouldn't name them "edubuntu-$religion", that isn't really being secular now is it :)
<sbalneav> Well, if they're in the archive, and not shipped, they can be called whatever.  I was trying to follow the sort-of "metapackages by grades" thing we have going.
<nixternal> though, I kind of understand the educational factor behind it, don't think we should even think about meddling with anything religion related
<sbalneav> But now we're into implementation details. :)
<nixternal> right, but I would suggest "religion-$religion" or such
<sbalneav> sure.
<stgraber> nixternal: +1 especially as they wouldn't have anything to do with Edubuntu, it's just a set of packages that one can install on top of edubuntu but also kubuntu, xubuntu, ...
<sbalneav> yeah, that'd be better, prolly, since that way they'd work for Ubuntu/Kubutu/Xubuntu, etc/
<sbalneav> great minds... :)
<sbalneav> stgraber: I'm gonna roll a new sabayon package right now, you gonna be around for another 1/2 hour?
<stgraber> sbalneav: sure
<crimsun> (if not there are two other core-dev present)
<sbalneav> cool.
<sbalneav> gimme two shakes of a lambs tail.
<sbalneav> Ok, in my ppa should be a 2.29.5 build
<sbalneav> tested
<sbalneav> works
<sbalneav> stgraber:
<sbalneav> crimsun:
<sbalneav> Whichever wants to wield their mighty mighty power, have at it :)
<stgraber> sbalneav: ok, I'll have a look
<sbalneav> should have our "updated" packaging of adduser :)
<sbalneav> No repeats from last time :)
<stgraber> hehe ;)
<sbalneav> I don't know what's been going on with Xephyr, I've seen several updates for it, but it's wickedly fast now.
<sbalneav> Smokin' Aces fast
<stgraber> diff looks good (quickly went through the whole diff, both upstream and packaging)
<stgraber> I'll be uploading that to archive in a minute or so
<stgraber> sbalneav: uploaded
 * sbalneav hugs stgraber 
* highvoltage changed the topic of #edubuntu to: Edubuntu Wiki Day! See gobby.ubuntu.com doc: edubuntu-wiki-hugday | Edubuntu - the education version of Ubuntu | http://www.edubuntu.org | wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu | 9.10 is released!, see http://www.edubuntu.org/news/9.10-release | Help out with bugs: http://tinyurl.com/EduBugs | LTSP questions? try #ltsp
<highvolt1ge> ineternets way broken today :/
<highvolt1ge> ogra: I can't edit the blueprint, could you please update https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-profile-and-network-session-management so that the wiki page points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/edubuntu-profile-session ?
<jbicha> Happy Wiki Day!
<highvoltage> hi jbicha :)
<jbicha> howdy, did you make it to Canada yet?
<ogra> highvoltage, i cant
<highvoltage> ogra: *nod* seems like it's not changable, I pinged #launchpad
<highvoltage> jbicha: heh, getting the visa is a way too long process, so not yet
<sbalneav> Morning all
<highvoltage> morning sbalneav
<sbalneav> Looks like post-lucid, ldap authentication's our big bugaboo :)
<highvoltage> heh, now where have I heard that before :)
<sbalneav> Of course, it's coming from Scott, who's gone on record as Edubuntu being an embarassment to FLOSS education, and has petitioned RocketMan to shut us down.
<sbalneav> I always meant to tell him in a way he succeeded.
<highvoltage> heh
<sbalneav> However, we do need better ldap.  Post lucid, I'll inject myself into the auth-team.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: yeah having nice centralized authentication has been the high priority on so many wishlists forever now
<sbalneav> I have the skills the manage the actual LDAP/Kerberos parts.
<sbalneav> my problems are:
<sbalneav> 1) doing it "on the cd" the way people want means doing things distro-ey and with preseeds and such
<sbalneav> and that's not a process I understand.
<sbalneav> 2) Some of the things we may want to do will come in direct opposition to what the server team wants, which means we'll be totally on our own for supporting it.
<sbalneav> And currently, we've got like, what, 6 active devs?
<sbalneav> How many of the rest of you know ldap inside and out?
<highvoltage> ldap scares the living daylights out of me
<stgraber> highvoltage: I guess you'll have to get used to it ;)
<stgraber> sbalneav: I do LDAP + kerberos
<sbalneav> yeah, so there's like 2 of us. :(
<sbalneav> It's a biiiig task
<sbalneav> stgraber: and you know how hard some LDAP problems can be to fix :)
<stgraber> sbalneav: yeah .. OpenLDAP isn't so bad though, it's a lot harder when you have to deal with eDirectory or AD ;)
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, I always accepted that I'll have to at some point :)
<sbalneav> Well, and that's the problem.
<sbalneav> THAT's what people are going to want us to deal with.
<sbalneav> I don't even *have* AD, so I'm completely useless in that regard, all my work's against OpenLDAP.
<stgraber> yeah, and you simply can't make a tool that will work with all three of them
<sbalneav> And people keep making noises about how goot 389 (formerly fedora directory server) is.
<stgraber> we have developped an account provisioning system at Revolution Linux which is/was used by the Canadian Space Agency (they stopped the project after a change in management) and it was a real pain to work with AD to add/remove/move accounts there
<stgraber> so we pretty much have a plugin for each kind of directory and one ldap.conf for each of them too as attributes don't have the same name ...
<stgraber> that and the fact that you absolutely need caching at least for eDirectory or you'll make it crash with relatively standard load
<highvoltage> and that's why I hide under my bed when someone mentions authentication :)
<sbalneav> yeah.  LDAP's "non trivial"
<sbalneav> and the use cases that Scott points out have all "simplified the problem"
<sbalneav> Which, quite frankly, I think is the right approach.
<sbalneav> Take Debian-edu
<sbalneav> they pre-seed a schema
<sbalneav> all config files are setup for that schema
<sbalneav> and they offer two installation modes
<sbalneav> 1) regular debian-edu ltsp server
<highvoltage> Internal Server Error
<highvoltage> yay I crashed the ubuntu wiki
<highvoltage> oh it's back again :)
<sbalneav> 2) an "NFS + LDAP + kerb" auth server
<sbalneav> so, you install one box on your network this way
<sbalneav> then just point all the rest of your boxes to the first one.
<sbalneav> Everything "just works"
<sbalneav> and if you say, "well, I want to auth off an AD server"
<sbalneav> they basically just point you to some wiki pages and say "off you go, then"
<sbalneav> So, they solve the 60% use case
<highvoltage> option 2 sounds very useful to many people
<sbalneav> and don't care about the 40%
<sbalneav> So, they have something
<sbalneav> Ubuntu keeps trying to solve the 100% case
<mhall119|work> having a pre-assembled NFS + LDAP + Kerb would be a wonderful solution for more than just schools
<sbalneav> and after 3 years or so, there's not a lot to show for it.
<sbalneav> mhall119|work: Yes, we KNOW :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: what's OAPS?
<sbalneav> My vote would be:
<highvoltage> stgraber: just came across it on the bottem of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMassMaintenance
<sbalneav> 1) steal^H^H^H^Huse as much of what debian-edu does as we can
<sbalneav> 2) ???
<sbalneav> 3) PROFIT :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: oops, nevermind, I misread OpenRevolution for RevolutionLinux
<sbalneav> Then we'd have SOMETHING.
<sbalneav> The advantage is, as we improve/adapt debian-edu stuff, if we fix bugs, we can upstream it back to them.
<sbalneav> I idle in debian-edu all the time, and anything I can do to foster more intercommunication with us and them I think's a win for both of us.
<highvoltage> LaserJock may also have some history of previous attempts that may be useful
<LaserJock> that's why I stopped in
<highvoltage> of course!
<highvoltage> LaserJock: sbalneav is attacking the authentication/LDAP issues again for Lucid+1
<LaserJock> I see
<sbalneav> Well, I took a prettu hard look about 6 months ago at the debian-edu stuff
<LaserJock> this is one of the things where I thought it'd be helpful to have a roadmap, some sort of strategy doc, etc.
<LaserJock> to be able to look at the scope
<sbalneav> agreed.
<LaserJock> and what Edubuntu can and can't do and what it should and shouldn't do
<sbalneav> We had one at one point, didn't we?
<LaserJock> kinda
<sbalneav> on the wikly?
<LaserJock> I never liked it :-)
<sbalneav> lol
<LaserJock> it just didn't do it for me
<LaserJock> I was missing something
<LaserJock> part of it is, nobody really agrees on what Edubuntu *should* be
<highvoltage> sbalneav: what happened to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuNetworkAuthServer ?
<LaserJock> the scope just balloons too quickly
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I agree!
<LaserJock> so LDAP/auth is one of those things where it's at an interface between Server and Edubuntu
<sbalneav> highvoltage: yeah, let's resurrect that page.
<LaserJock> and the question is whether Edubuntu needs to have a secondary, cheerleading type role
<LaserJock> or whether Edubuntu should lead the charge
<sbalneav> <rant>
<sbalneav> One of the biggest problems we've had, since day 1, is lots of people (present company excluded) TALKING about what they want edubuntu to be
<LaserJock> I would include the present company ;-)
<sbalneav> But nobody (present company excluded) Doing any freaking work to do the work.
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Nah, you did your time.  You worked.
<sbalneav> Personally, I think it's time we just start saying "OK, you want feature X?  Here's how we're going to do it"
<LaserJock> I always attributed it to 1) unclear, unfocused goals/targets/roadmap and 2) lack of energy from the top
<sbalneav> "Oh, don't like it that way?  That's fine, then YOU do it!"
<sbalneav> "Oh, you say you don't have time/programming skills to do it?  Then get out of the way and let us get SOMETHING done!"
<LaserJock> I always like being strategic about things
<sbalneav> that's how other distro's are getting the problems solved.
<LaserJock> so that everything we do is towards a specific, measurable goal
<LaserJock> I think probably the biggest problem with Edubuntu is that the majority of users we hear from only care about LTSP
<sbalneav> I'm all in favour of community.  But if the community is mostly comprised of people saying "It sucks the way things are... why won't someone make it better", then lets get on with it.
<LaserJock> as a whole, the development wanted Edubuntu to be more than just Ubuntu LTSP
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Which should tell you something about the people using Edubuntu
<sbalneav> they're using it to deploy LTSP
<LaserJock> but if you look at the lists and what people ask questions about, it's 99% LTSP
<Tm_T> sbalneav: I would love to be payed developing Edubuntu (:
<alkisg> I don't think it gives them much more than that, currently... what else? kdeedu + a theme?
<LaserJock> alkisg: that's preciously the problem
<LaserJock> any time we try to go away from LTSP people yell at us
<highvoltage> (and from lucid a netbook option and live ltsp and some other things)
<alkisg> I'm with sbalneav on this, we should pack up some solutions and put them on the DVD for teachers
<alkisg> Not focus on upstream work, that's somebody else's work...
<sbalneav> Tm_T: I'll gladly split half my earnings with you.
<sbalneav> 0/2 =
<LaserJock> but this is the problem
<LaserJock> Edubuntu is not defined enough, not focused enough
<Tm_T> sbalneav: indeed
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you're a scientist, it's cause and effect. ltsp is currently one of the biggest features in edubuntu, so a large majority of users that currently use it does so because they have an interest in that
<LaserJock> so you get sort of random looking contributions
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you can't blame the users aboot that
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I'm not blaming them
<LaserJock> but I do wish we had room to grow
<sbalneav> </rant>
<stgraber> highvoltage: even though they'll get exactly the same for 3GB less by using ubuntu alternate ;)
<sbalneav> Gotta close my tags
<alkisg> Heh
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, indeed
<LaserJock> my assumption from the beginning was that people wanted LTSP as tool to do education
<LaserJock> not as an ends to itself
<LaserJock> as time went on it basically looked to me like I was wrong
<LaserJock> all people cared about was getting an LTSP server going
<LaserJock> what happened afterward was not very important
<sbalneav> Because that was their biggest problem of the moment.
<LaserJock> that's I think what was hard for me
<sbalneav> they've got 25 old boxes
<LaserJock> I don't care (wonderful as it is) about LTSP
<LaserJock> I don't use it, I probably won't ever professionally
<LaserJock> so I wanted to focus on the actual educational stuff
<LaserJock> either what you do after the LTSP server is up and running
<LaserJock> or if you do  1:1
<LaserJock> or if you're just at home with a kids computer
<LaserJock> and Edubuntu just never grew past getting LTSP off the ground
<sbalneav> It certainly did.
<sbalneav> It's just that, you can't USE edubuntu in a lab setting until you get the LTSP part going.
<alkisg> LaserJock: what is the "actual educational stuff" for you?
<sbalneav> and the LTSP parts always the hardest part because it's the peice tht has to handle the most variables.
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> but I've dealt with labs
<LaserJock> even *buntu labs
<LaserJock> and *none* of them used LTSP
<LaserJock> but they sucked for education because there was not a lot of edu stuff there
<LaserJock> LTSP is a hard part, but it's not the only part
<highvoltage> no one ever said it was though
<LaserJock> no, but clearly that's the emphasis
<LaserJock> and that's what Edubuntu is known for
<highvoltage> the only reason why we have some LTSP related tasks for Lucid is that our users demanded it
<LaserJock> and any time we've ever said something like "let's not worry too much about LTSP and focus on education" people get upset
<highvoltage> it doesn't have any kind of priority above anything else
<LaserJock> I'm not saying that LTSP shouldn't be there or that it shouldn't be worked on
<highvoltage> LaserJock: like who?
<LaserJock> I think it's a key technology
<sbalneav> I'm not sure what the problem is here.
<sbalneav> You say 99% of our users want LTSP to work
<alkisg> Edubuntu currently doesn't have neither the developers nor the experience to develop educational software.
<alkisg> It shouldn't focus there.
<sbalneav> We spend a lot of time making sure the infrastructure (including LTSP) works.
<LaserJock> ok, well, I guess here's my point
<sbalneav> aren't we just DOING WHAT PEOPLE WANT? :)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: alkisg is right, and the people who understand education well is just not interested in contributing lots of their time
<LaserJock> that's fine
<LaserJock> but for instance, our moodle was completely broken for well over a year
<LaserJock> we've not done anything with dynamic menus
<alkisg> highvoltage: I agree. So maybe in the future we could look at that "developing educational software" idea again, but I don't think it's a task we should be looking now.
<LaserJock> nothing about making the UI more usable for kids
<LaserJock> nothing with Sugar
<LaserJock> it seems like historically LTSP + Edu is too much
<LaserJock> Edubuntu == LTSPbuntu
<sbalneav> LaserJock: 1) None of us knew about moodle, 2) I thought *YOU* were handling the dynamic menus, 3) We have no UI people, 4) We have no sugar people
<LaserJock> in terms of what users are wanting to get out of it
<highvoltage> LaserJock: mgariepy is doing great work for menus for lucid
<LaserJock> sbalneav: exactly my point
<alkisg> So, what can we do with the *current* resources that we have?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: mhall119|work has been getting involved with us, we're going to include as much of the Qimo4kids stuff as possible in the future, that does work on simplifying interface for younger users
<sbalneav> LaserJock: So what's the solution? We don't currently have these people, so what?  Do we stop doing what we can do?  Shut the project down?
<LaserJock> alkisg:  not waste them
<LaserJock> no
<sbalneav> How are we WASTING resources?!
<LaserJock> I don't know that you guys are
<alkisg> LaserJock: right. I'm helping stgraber + highvoltage on LTSP/fat clients now, so I'll get edubuntu Lucid to maybe 100 more schools. Is that a waste of time?
<LaserJock> but it seems like things are sort of random
<LaserJock> I know where you're coming from
<LaserJock> you do what bits you're able to with what you've got
<highvoltage> LaserJock: they're not random, we're just doing the best we can with the resources we currently have
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: Qimo's desktop uses XFCE, do you want to make your kid-friendly UI require a whole different DE?
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: there used to be a meta-package called something like edubuntu-desktop-lite that was meant for xfce desktops, but I think no one maintained it anymore
<LaserJock> we had it until XFCE got demoted
<mhall119|work> demoted?
<highvoltage> to universe
<LaserJock> well, so we keep talking about resources
<sbalneav> Well, we don't care about that distinction anymore, since we can ship anything we want on the dvd.
<LaserJock> I guess what I'm suggesting
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: point is, if we make it easier for ubuntu users to use qimo, we're not wasting time, at least not imho
<LaserJock> is that Edubuntu find itself
<LaserJock> focus on what it wants to do go
<LaserJock> *good
<LaserJock> and then *get* resources
<highvoltage> with the archive reorg main/universe destinction doesn't matter all that much anyway
<mhall119|work> okay then
<LaserJock> one of the things that historically Edubuntu has done worse at than other derivs is getting involved with the other parts of Ubuntu
<mhall119|work> I'd be happy to have Qimo as an install option in Edubuntu
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yep, as we discussed before it would be nice shipping them on the Edubuntu dvd once the packages are available
<mhall119|work> right, packages..
<sbalneav> We're like 6 people.
<mhall119|work> do I need Lucid installed to make packages for Lucid?
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: nope
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: I could test them for you though
<highvoltage> LaserJock: our strategy for lucid at least, is just to sort out our current biggest problems
<sbalneav> Quite frankly, I've heard for 4+ years that edubuntu should "find iteself".
<sbalneav> I'm tired of looking.
<LaserJock> yep
<sbalneav> I just want to fix things so they work.
<highvoltage> LaserJock: our ISO image is *double* the size it needs to be, the dependencies to sort that out then becomes a high priority
<LaserJock> highvoltage: ok, how big do you want it to be?
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: cool, I can test them in a VM too, just wasn't sure if I needed lucid dev tools to make them
<sbalneav> Let me know when we know what/where we are.
<highvoltage> LaserJock: we're going to drop the alternate installer, so it's basically going to halve in size
<highvoltage> LaserJock: well, almost half in size
<LaserJock> highvoltage: will the alternate installer work for Edubuntu's users?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: why half?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: because we're currently shipping everything twice on the DVD. we have a live cd and then everything again as .debs
<mhall119|work> because you have to include the packages differently between the live session and alternate install
<LaserJock> highvoltage: right, but what size do you want to be?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: what things do you want to fix?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: oh, I don't care particularly about what size it is. I care that we're wasting half the space we're currently shipping
<LaserJock> highvoltage: right, I see that as a problem
<LaserJock> this is what I'm trying to say
<LaserJock> if you have targets
<LaserJock> when you reach them you stop, move on to another target having accomplished a goal
<LaserJock> Edubuntu could fix a lot of things
<LaserJock> but are they the right things
<LaserJock> that make the impacts that Edubuntu is seeking to achieve
<LaserJock> certainly it's a bit higher level, but it doesn't need to end up in RichEd land
<alkisg> We're only a few people, already having specific goals each
<alkisg> So there's not much time to give to more generic goals...
<LaserJock> ... and that's why Edubuntu hasn't gotten very far in the last couple years
<LaserJock> I just did the little things I cared about
<highvoltage> LaserJock: it's gotten further in the last few months than it has in a *very* *very* long time
<LaserJock> sbalneav did his things, stgraber, highvoltage, etc.
<alkisg> Right. People here are NOT intererested in fixing sugar. They left :)
<LaserJock> highvoltage: has it thought?
<LaserJock> I'm not questioning that great things are going on, don't get me wrong
<highvoltage> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> but what is the standard by which you're determining success here?
<alkisg> So, with the resources that we have left, I think we can bring people to edubuntu by preconfiguring/prepackaging some _existing_ solutions for schools.
<LaserJock> alkisg: what is Edubuntu's "resources"?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I'm comparing what's been happening in the last few months to the last few years
<alkisg> LaserJock: a couple of our hours per day.... that's about it.
<LaserJock> alkisg: are you sure?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the education focus, and setting good milestones, etc
<alkisg> LaserJock: do you think we have something else? (of course I'm not refering to release systems etc)
<LaserJock> alkisg: I do
<highvoltage> LaserJock: but I disagree with you that we're doing particularly bad right now, Lucid is by far going to be the best Edubuntu release ever
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I'm not saying you're doing particularly bad, quite the opposite
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure I'd call Lucid the best release ever
<highvoltage> LaserJock: which one would you put above it?
<ogra> nah, that was breezy
<LaserJock> probably one of the early ones
<highvoltage> ogra: you are biased :)
<LaserJock> because it was going somewhere
<LaserJock> it was more momentum and relative change
<highvoltage> LaserJock: how are we not going somewhere with lucid?
<ogra> highvoltage, pfft never :)
<LaserJock> Lucid, while great, isn't revolutionary in any educational sense
<highvoltage> LaserJock: did we really have more momentum then!? because it really doesn't feel so
<highvoltage> right, and it's not meant to be yet
<LaserJock> how has the educational app selection changed in Lucid?
<ogra> LaserJock, probably not as a release but as a milestone for the developer community
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I changed the seeds to include a bunch of stuff from universe that we never did before
<ogra> there has never been as much development effort as currently is going on
<ogra> and it seems to raise
<LaserJock> highvoltage: and how much has that been testing?
<alkisg> LaserJock: what did edubuntu breezy offer that ubuntu breezy didn't offer?
<LaserJock> alkisg: a focus on Education, IMO
<ogra> alkisg, the edu apps and artwork
<ogra> alkisg, since then the edu part didnt change much
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I made the changes just before the alpha release (Ubuntu Alpha 2), stgraber will be sponsoring those changes this week so that we can test it next week
<alkisg> ogra: couldn't someone put the edu apps on an ubuntu installation?
<sbalneav> LaserJock: I've been doing nothing but testing for the last 3 weeks.
<ogra> alkisg, nope, no space
<alkisg> Isn't that what many people are doing currently?
<LaserJock> ok, well, I guess I'm just not quite able to get this stuff across on IRC very well
<mhall119|work> alkisg: not on a CD image
<alkisg> ogra: no I meant on their PCs, AFTER installing the ubuntu cd...
<LaserJock> it's not about so much the technical bits
<ogra> LaserJock, i understand you and partially agree
<LaserJock> I don't mean us testing
<LaserJock> I mean, how do we know that Lucid's apps are the apps that teachers want
<ogra> alkisg, sure that was possible even before edubuntu existed
<LaserJock> and how do we know they work for teachers
<alkisg> ogra, that's why 95% of greek teachers do not use Edubuntu. It doesn't offer them anything they don't already have.
<LaserJock> exactly!
<LaserJock> that's what I'm after
<alkisg> So breezy was NOT a good release
<ogra> LaserJock, what i see though and appreciate very much is that there *is* developer effort going on, it will take its time to actually get to the edu bits and reorganize
<LaserJock> I was 100% of greek teachers using Edubuntu
<alkisg> But Lucid will offer them things NOT in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> ogra: very true
<LaserJock> and I want to be clear that I'm not knocking the current effort
<ogra> i'd call Lucid the "release thats getting it back on track"
<LaserJock> I'm very very pleased to see all the hard work
<mhall119|work> how does the project currently get input from teachers?
<ogra> but there is definately room for improvement in the edu sector
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you know as well as anyone that whatever we need to include needs to have the appropriate licensing, needs to be packaged, etc
<sbalneav> mhall119|work: We have a mailing list, an irc, meetings, wiki pages, etc.
<LaserJock> I guess what I'm not sure about is how Lucid will be received in the user community
<highvoltage> LaserJock: with a shorter than usual feature freeze and with lots already to be done and tested, we just didn't have the time to focus tremendously on education for Lucid
<LaserJock> sure
<mhall119|work> sbalneav: of those, only the mailing list is really accessible to a non-technical teacher
<highvoltage> LaserJock: and that's less than ideal, it doesn't mean that it will be the same for lucid+1
<sbalneav> mhall119|work: ok
<sbalneav> So the mailing list should be flooded with teachers giving suggestions, right?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: if we get everything right for Lucid, then we could put lots of good focus towards educational value-add for Lucid+1
<LaserJock> or will you be fixing LTSP and LDAP?
<mhall119|work> sbalneav: is the mailing list email listed as a contact email on the edubuntu website?
<sbalneav> Teachers should be FLOCKING to the mailing list telling us how testing's going, what apps they want to see, use cases, etc., right?
 * sbalneav goes to look at the mailing list
<sbalneav> Nope
<highvoltage> LaserJock: also, the kind of big problems you talk about... I don't know of anyone who's really made tremendous strides like what you're talking about, not even K12LTSP who has been around for much longer
<mhall119|work> sbalneav: no, but they should be asking questions
<sbalneav> And they are
<sbalneav> about ltsp
<LaserJock> highvoltage: which is why I thought Edubuntu had a chance
<sbalneav> about ldap auth
<LaserJock> right
<sbalneav> and we're answering them
<highvoltage> LaserJock: well there you go, if you don't believe that Edubuntu has any kind of "chance" then I'm probably just wasting time talking to you
<mhall119|work> sbalneav: cool, what about kid's apps?
<LaserJock> so I can't help but wonder if Edubuntu needs to figure out if it's Education or LTSP, I'm not sure it can be great at both for the foreseeable future
<sbalneav> What about them?
<mhall119|work> are you getting questions about them?
<sbalneav> "what about kids apps" isn't a question.
<sbalneav> mhall119|work: Look for yourself
<sbalneav> answer is "no"
<ogra> LaserJock, why not ...
<sbalneav> We can only answer questions that we get.
<LaserJock> ogra: because we've never pulled it off in the past
<ogra> LaserJock, its starts to attract more devs and apparently some of these arent even intrested in LTSP
<ogra> just give it time
<LaserJock> ogra: and most importantly because it seems to me that LTSP and "Edu" are orthogonal problems
<sbalneav> We can only fix bugs that get get filed.
<mhall119|work> the mailing list linked to on the website is edubuntu-devel, is that correct?
<LaserJock> it seems to me that most LTSP people are really trying to sysadmin an educational server
<sbalneav> AFAIK, both are lined on the site.
<mhall119|work> I mean, is that what is intended
<ogra> LaserJock, i beg to disagree ... they are surely not as joint as they are promoted atm, but LTSP is an instrument thats being used in education
<alkisg> LaserJock: yes, that's exactly what teachers want edubuntu for :)
<alkisg> For educational applications, we have upstream, not distros...
<LaserJock> ogra: LTSP is like a say an email server
<ogra> alkisg, but who integrates the educational apps ?
<LaserJock> a teacher wants to use email
<sbalneav> http://www.edubuntu.org/help, no looks like the first link's wrong.
<ogra> alkisg, there is totally agree with LaserJock that edubuntu is lacking
<LaserJock> but that doesn't mean they're concerned about the nuts and bolts of an email server
<mhall119|work> alkisg: there is something to say about pre-configured distros
<alkisg> ogra: I don't think edubuntu is suffering from packaging problems. It has other, more important problems :)
<sbalneav> first one should be to edubuntu users.
<ogra> alkisg, i'm not saying *packging*
<ogra> alkisg, where is the moodle server teachers asked for since several years ?
<ogra> why arent there more edu apps integrated from the archive yet
<ogra> etc etc
<LaserJock> what I'm wondering is if what i'd call "educational infrastructure" needs more outsourcing
<mhall119|work> is moodle that much in demand?  I tried it but it didn't seem intuitive to me
<alkisg> ogra: there ARE some applications integrated. Still, teachers use Ubuntu instead of edubuntu. Why would integrading more apps change that?
<ogra> alkisg, while i agree with all of you that LTSP *is* an important part ... and that an automatic LDAP setup might be awesome, there is definately not been much change in the past in the edu app selection of edubuntu
<LaserJock> and it's not just about "app selection" itself
<LaserJock> but how you get the app selection
<mhall119|work> ogra: it already has just about all the good open source edu apps
<ogra> nor has there been much work with upstreams to make edu apps more flawlessly integrated
<LaserJock> what the UI looks like
<LaserJock> etc.
<LaserJock> there are a *ton* of Java edu apps out there that are not packaged
<ogra> mhall119|work, i know, i made that selection about 5 years ago .... and it didnt change much
<alkisg> (06:36:52 Î¼Î¼) alkisg: ogra: there ARE some applications integrated. Still, teachers use Ubuntu instead of edubuntu. Why would integrading more apps change that?
<mhall119|work> are there?  Only one I've ever used and distrubuted is Alice
<ogra> alkisg, *integration*
<mhall119|work> integration != installation
<ogra> alkisg, like working 100% flawless
<sbalneav> ogra, LaserJock agreed.  Not much work got done on setting vision, or app selection, or packaging java apps.
<alkisg> They would work on Edubuntu but not on Ubuntu?
<ogra> why cant i drag and drop my images from nautilus or dolphin into tuxpaint ?
<mhall119|work> in Qimo, we don't just include the apps, we pre-configure the bottom panel with launchers, tux paint with stamps and a default save directory, etc
 * sbalneav looks very very very pointedly at ogra and laserjock
<sbalneav> and why not?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: let it slide
<sbalneav> maybe because of the same reason as now
<ogra> (or from thunar, sorry xfce users :) )
<sbalneav> because there just aren't enough people here working on it.
<mhall119|work> ogra: because Tux Paint doesn't support it?
<LaserJock> my point is maybe that we need to look more outside "people here"
<ogra> mhall119|work, right, thats my point
<LaserJock> Edubuntu is *never* going to have a lot of developers
<LaserJock> but there are a lot of developers out there in Ubuntu and the broader community
<mhall119|work> ogra: so you think we should be contributing feature enhancements upstream?
<sbalneav> "we need" to X, Y and Z
<alkisg> ogra: so you're suggesting that teachers or the few developers with the couple of free hours per day here should do upstream tuxpaint work?
<ogra> mhall119|work, no, just find such issues and bug them for a start ...
<ogra> alkisg, thats not what i'm saying
<mhall119|work> ogra: to be honest, I've never seen someone even try to drag and drop an image into tuxpaint
<mhall119|work> then again, Qimo defaults it to fullscreen
<ogra> i'm saying you guys should (once there are more devs) make the experience for a teacher as flawless as possible
<LaserJock> so looking at LDAP/auth, perhaps it's maybe more worthwhile to have a serious sit-down with the Server team
<ogra> mhall119|work, that was just an example
<sbalneav> Had enough of this for the day.
<LaserJock> sbalneav: sorry dude, I really really didn't mean to harsh the mood :(
<ogra> mhall119|work, what i'm trying to get across is that it takes little work to file such a lack upstream and if edubuntu is the first distro including such a change (because some intrested MOTU provided a fix) it will rock the teachers world
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I'm with you
<mhall119|work> ogra: perhaps
<mhall119|work> have you filed a bug for that?
<ogra> mhall119|work, its "make the ditro woprk right" ... but indeed for that "right" you need teachers input etc
<mhall119|work> ogra: have you entered a bug against tux paint to get drag and drop support?
<ogra> currently as alkisg says, the edu part of edubuntu is only a selection of apps ...
<ogra> mhall119|work, no
<mhall119|work> why not?
<ogra> because i dont touch edu apps anymore ... i've done that for 5 years 14h/day
<ogra> 6 days/week
<mhall119|work> then the only person who has noticed the bug and wants it fixed isn't reporting it
<ogra> sigh
<ogra> you dont understand me
<mhall119|work> I do understand you
<ogra> i'm not talking about tuxpaint
<mhall119|work> yes, I get that
<ogra> i'm trying to get across where edubuntu can be more than just a selection of apps
<mhall119|work> my point is that I report bugs and request features when I come across them
<ogra> and what i meant by integration
<ogra> right
<ogra> i didnt mean to blame you :)
<mhall119|work> I assume that everyone else does too
<LaserJock> but some of use aren't educators
<LaserJock> and that's a problem
<mhall119|work> are any of us educators?
<LaserJock> I can take a stab at filing bugs that I think educators would care about
<LaserJock> but it's much better to actually get educators involved
<LaserJock> I think that's some of what ogra's trying to say
<highvoltage> LaserJock: if you want to help edubuntu, then please contribute, or send us some good suggestions or even complaints, but right now I think the only think you're doing here is rambling your agenda without listening to anyone else
<ogra> right, and look over their sholder and see them failing with a drag/drop in tuxpaint ;)
<LaserJock> highvoltage: fair enough, carry on
<mhall119|work> ogra: have you seen that?
<ogra> mhall119|work, no, i dont look over educators sholders, but it would help if someone did
<mhall119|work> it sure would be, then we can find actual bugs and feature requests
<ogra> and if this someone would make a writeup etc so it gets across to you guys
<alkisg> To be honest, I didn't even understand LaserJock's agenta, it was too vague for me.
<mhall119|work> and if we had a budget to hire someone to do that, things would be easier
<ogra> mhall119|work, there once was ...
<mhall119|work> once
<mhall119|work> no longer
<ogra> but that someone got eaten up by tech issues he had to fix
<mhall119|work> so how can we do this with no budget?
<ogra> attract teachers that arent after getting tech support :)
<highvoltage> alkisg: I have lots of respect for LaserJock and the work that he's done, but I don't think he's been helping us much the last few hours
<alkisg> mhall119|work: the edubuntu bugsquad can help teachers correctly file their bugs, and notify upstream for them whenever appopriate
<highvoltage> alkisg: I understand and agree with what he's saying about an educational focus, but I also don't think there's more we can do about it *right now*
<mhall119|work> working over a teacher's shoulder is only going to work in-person
<alkisg> highvoltage: I totally agree...
<ogra> mhall119|work, right, a usability study of edubuntu would make an awesome thesis for a student i bet ;)
<jbicha> I think LaserJock wishes he were still a major part of Edubuntu...
<ogra> highvoltage, i totally agree ... you are all doing awesome *right now*
<ogra> highvoltage, but you know Laser ... and he had alsway a bigger picture in mind
<mhall119|work> I've only worked with teachers who's control doesn't extend beyond the walls of their classroom, and they're looking for 2 separate things: record-keeping tools that run on their computer, and educational games that run on the kid's computer(s)
<ogra> mhall119|work, only games ?
<ogra> thats sad
<mhall119|work> for that setup, LDAP, LTSP and even a webserver are more than necessary
<highvoltage> thanks ogra.
<mhall119|work> ogra: s/games/applications/
<ogra> right, teaching tools
<highvoltage> I've also worked with many teachers who use Ubuntu in their schools. Most of them that I've worked with come from poorer backgrounds and they use LTSP
<mhall119|work> most schools in my area have a few computers available in-class, and it's usually for undirected time, not actual lessons
<ogra> mhall119|work, yeah, and thats sad
<highvoltage> so for the teachers I've worked with, getting the system to work right from a technical perspective is vital for them in order to do their educating on top of it
<mhall119|work> it is sad, but they don't have enough hardware to use them for actual lessons
<ogra> highvoltage, yeah, i dont disagree and i wouldnt have put the amount of work into LTSP if i ever had ;)
<mhall119|work> the other problem teachers around here face is that the school board's IT department strictly controls all the computers
<ogra> highvoltage, for the same reason i was always reluctant to using a DVD :)
<jbicha> mhall119|work: for record-keeping, what do you use?
<jbicha> because supposedly, schooltool will be back in the repos for Lucid
<mhall119|work> that staff doesn't have the resources to properly manage all the classroom computers, but is also unwilling to give up control over them, so they remain all but useless
<ogra> thats even sadder
<mhall119|work> jbicha: schooltool is nice, but most teachers I know would rather have it as a desktop app on their teacher computer, than as we webapp
<ogra> but a political issue edubuntu cant do much about
<mhall119|work> ogra: yes, that is the biggest challenge facing my district's use of open source
<highvoltage> ogra: I guess we'll never agree about the dvd :), from what I've seen though it's way easier copying DVD's that trying to get packages for a minimum installed system if you don't have connectivity
<jbicha> it's almost a desktop app, just one that you access via your webbrowser ;-)
<ogra> highvoltage, sure ...
<mhall119|work> ogra: but that is why LTDP + LDAP is so important, is it allows us to make the case for adoption by the IT departments, because it lets them still keep control over these computers, while making them useful too
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: in many areas we have that here too, some teachers are even actively against using computers to give lessons
<ogra> highvoltage, it has advantages and disadvantages :)
<highvoltage> ogra: *nod*
<ogra> mhall119|work, yes, i dont disagree with that LTSP is an important tool
<mhall119|work> an LDAP + LTSP + NFS package would go a long way in convincing a district-wide adoption of edubuntu, which is about the only way to get any kind of adoption around here
<ogra> mhall119|work, and unlike Laser i wouldnt decouple edubuntu from it at all
<alkisg> mhall119|work: have you read about libpam_sshauth that sbalneav proposed? Would you need ldap if you already had that?
<mhall119|work> alkisg: no, I haven't read it
<mhall119|work> what is it?
<alkisg> Do you know how LTSP authentication is done? (with ldm+ssh)?
<jbicha> mhall119|work: is there any other edu record-keeping software you know of?
<mhall119|work> alkisg: nope, I figured the clients used whatever auth backend was avialable on the server
<ogra> mhall119|work, though note that i'm a passionate hater of LDAP ;) i think its useless for setups under 1000 users
<alkisg> mhall119|work: ok, see this for starters: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/libpam-sshauth
<mhall119|work> jbicha: I found another one a couple years ago, don't remember what it was called
<mhall119|work> but it was also web based, and not as nice as school tool
<alkisg> I think that that could server school districts with many hunderds of users, without having to learn how to use ldap...
<mhall119|work> there is also the gcompris teacher tool
<alkisg> *serve
<mhall119|work> alkisg: so the client authenticates via ssh to the ltsp server, or some other server?
<ogra> however your pam setup is configured
<alkisg> Well I guess it could authenticate to any server
<ogra> currently it authenticated only to the ssh server it wants to connect to
<mhall119|work> okay, so this spec is just for a new ssh-based pam module that LTSP can use
<alkisg> mhall119|work: nope, see the use cases
<mhall119|work> but once LTSP is using some pam-based authentication, it can use any of them
<ogra> wrong way round :)
<ogra> ltsp goes on to use ssh to talk to the auth server
<ogra> its just not bound to the ltsp server anymore
<mhall119|work> okay, so ssh-auth first, then somethign else?
<alkisg> That mechanism could be used by standalone workstations, that have nothing to do with LTSP....
<mhall119|work> true
<alkisg> And relying on simple ssh, user management would be simpler than managing LDAP
<ogra> yeah
<mhall119|work> but IT admins are generally familiar with directory-based user management
<alkisg> I'd prefer that for my schools, instead of ldap/nfs/etc
<mhall119|work> this would be good for smaller, in-class setups though
<ogra> mhall119|work, teachers arent ;) you just said that before
<alkisg> IT admins should go to #ubuntu-server, not to #edubuntu :)
<highvoltage> especially since you'd just have to set up ssh on the server to authenticate against ldap/ad/etc
<mhall119|work> ogra: I also said my teachers aren't going to be using LTSP
<mhall119|work> heh, I just noticed there's a koala face on the inside of my 9.10 CD sleeve
<mhall119|work> for getting edubuntu adopted district-wide, I think an authentication directory would be the most desired
<mhall119|work> be it LDAP or AD
<alkisg> I still wonder what does edubuntu have to do with that, though :)
<mhall119|work> alkisg: the included apps and tools
<alkisg> I think it should be something for #ubuntu-server
<mhall119|work> schooltool would be especially good in this kind of setup, district-wide management in a central place
<mhall119|work> same with moodle
<alkisg> No, I mean if IT admins are going to set up edubuntu, then edubuntu shouldn't worry about making edirectories easy for teachers...
<mhall119|work> no, but it should worry about making them easy for school board it admins
<mhall119|work> and school administrators, who are assigning students to teachers
<ogra> ubuntu-server should
<mhall119|work> teachers don't generally have the ability to change which students they have
<ogra> edubuntu should just use it
<alkisg> Right
<mhall119|work> ogra: I agree, but ubuntu-server doesn't
<mhall119|work> at least not that I've seen
<ogra> and if there are requirements from teachers, these should be channeled to ubuntu-server
<alkisg> Edubuntu could help with that.
<ogra> right
<mhall119|work> and having a single isntall that does LDAP + LTSP + NFS + SchoolTool + Moodle + edu-games would be a sellable package
<alkisg> So if I was to give some time in making authentication easier, I'd focus on smaller schools, with no IT admins.
<ogra> mhall119|work, skolelinux does that
<mhall119|work> alkisg: yes, which is why I said a while back that it would be good outside of schools
<ogra> mhall119|work, but in a way thats not compatible with the rest of debian
<ogra> so debian docs will fail if you want to enhance or change it
<ogra> that why for edubuntu ubuntu-server should work out the theme
<ogra> and edubuntu should just adopt it from there
<mhall119|work> is there anything going on with ubuntu-server on that front?
<ogra> sure
<ogra> but not as fast as it should :)
<ogra> but there are a bunch of LDAP specialists in the server team
<ogra> and they surely know the desire to have its handling easier
<mhall119|work> is there any coordination between the two projects?
<ogra> not enough
<mhall119|work> maybe we should encourage their efforts on that front
<highvoltage> I shared a room with the lead developer of LDAP at UDS in Barcelona
<highvoltage> seems that there is at least some good communication going on between ubuntu and ldap
<mhall119|work> until then, I think the LiveDVD and LTSP integration is a good start, having schooltool and moddle installed and running by default would be too
<mhall119|work> we can add links to those on the teacher's desktop
<mhall119|work> or menus
<highvoltage> it doesn't look like we'll have schooltool for lucid though
<mhall119|work> I figured it would be too late in the game to start planning for lucid, I'm thinking lucid+1
<highvoltage> *nod*
<mhall119|work> being able to boot a classroom-wide system from the DVD would be great
<highvoltage> having a server metapackage again for all the edu server-side stuff would be great for that
<mhall119|work> does the DVD have separate boot options for teacher vs student live session?
 * mhall119|work needs to get the DVD and play with it, I know
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: hmm? no ot'
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: hmm? no it's all the same
<mhall119|work> it would be nice, I think
<highvoltage> could be, yes
 * mhall119|work needs more time in the day
<alkisg> mhall119|work: what good is moodle on a live DVD?
<ogra> get a plane and keep constantly flying :)
<alkisg> With no users, no classes, nothing?
<ogra> hopping timezones gets you a lot more hours
<mhall119|work> alkisg: pre-loaded it with some lesson plans
<alkisg> mhall119|work: multilingual?
<mhall119|work> boot the other computers on the classroom network into the student session
<mhall119|work> point them to the teacher's computer for moodle work
<alkisg> It gets too complicated for a general purpose live CD :)
<mhall119|work> alkisg: I suppose, I'm not sure what moodle's support for that is
<mhall119|work> alkisg: it's not that complicated, and a DVD will have enough room
<ogra> having as proper moodle install in the edubuntu-server option would already be a big hit
<mhall119|work> just different startup scripts
<alkisg> I'm not sure that teachers would want to use whatever lesson plan is on the DVD
<alkisg> They'd most probably want to create their own plans...
<mhall119|work> alkisg: no, but it would be something they can start playing with really quickly
<mhall119|work> it's daunting looking at a blank canvas with tools you've never used before
<alkisg> mhall119|work: that could be an "tasksel install moodle-something" task
<mhall119|work> alkisg: I'd like to see it on the live session
<ogra> alkisg, apt-get install edubuntu-server ;)
<alkisg> I just don't think it's useful to have on a DVD... there are plenty of moodle sites around to see a demo
<highvoltage> alkisg: we should probably link to them from somewhere
<mhall119|work> alkisg: desktop users liked the livecd because it had everything they would use available to tinker with without causing any harm
<mhall119|work> teachers should get teh same experience
<alkisg> ogra: I'm not sure "edubuntu-server" is definable :) Every class/teacher/school needs different things, so I don't think a package is a good solution
<mhall119|work> Evolution isn't very useful to have on a LiveCD, but it's there so people can see it, play with it, decide that they like it
 * alkisg thinks it's there because people want it on their installed systems, not to try it out.
<ogra> alkisg, it is already defined :) apt-cache show edubuntu-server
<mhall119|work> which is why I think moodle + schooltool + some default lesson plans would be good for teachers to see what they can do with it, without having to do it first
<alkisg> ogra, well, I have no use for postgressql, and I am a teacher :) So I don't think edubuntu-server is suitable for me... That's what I mean
<ogra> alkisg, the idea of that package was to defiane a general set of edu server apps and depend on it
<highvoltage> alkisg: you'll need a database server for moodle though
<ogra> alkisg, if you use moodle you need any kind of DB
<highvoltage> (if you want to run it lice)
<highvoltage> *live
<alkisg> highvoltage: right, I don't need moodle in my classrooms. We have more "global" moodle servers, country-wise.
<alkisg> It's hard to fill up a moodle course with just the local teachers
<ogra> mhall119|work, running moodle off a live DVD wouldnt really get any positive impression ... every tried to access a spinning CD on a live system with more than one user ? its darn slow
<ogra> *ever
<alkisg> What I'd like, and I don't know how much possible is that, is to provide an additional combo box in ubuiquity,
<alkisg> something like the "select your country" box,
<ogra> o was always reluctatnt to putting LTSP on the live CD as well because of this
<alkisg> in which edubuntu-related teams would define their own sets of default apps,
<ogra> but if you only demo one or two clients that might still work
<mhall119|work> ogra: perhaphs, but computers are coming with multiple gigs of memory these days, so it may not be that bad
<ogra> mhall119|work, that doesnt let the drive spin faster :)
<alkisg> so e.g. Greek schools could select "I'm a _secondary_ greek school" and get whatever apps was defined for them by their team
<mhall119|work> ogra: but it would let us prefetch more into cache
<alkisg> That would also bring more people to edubuntu, to form those teams that define the sets of apps.
<ogra> mhall119|work, sop you would develop a special kernel for the livecd ? or special app-wrappers for each and every app to achieve that ?
<mhall119|work> no, but I'm pretty sure you could have them loaded into memory with some custom init scripts
<ogra> how much customization would you want to do ? and who would maintain all that ?
<alkisg> mhall119|work: why would people download a CD to tryout moodle, instead of seeing it live in a site in their web browsers? E.g. http://www.linux-for-education.org/index.php ?
<mhall119|work> because maybe they can't reach the internet from their classroom?
<ogra> note that a live system is usually as close to the install as possible because the resources to maintin any special casing are missing
<mhall119|work> because maybe they want something to play with that isn't accessible to the rest of the world
<alkisg> They could try it at home then. I don't think teachers try stuff _in_ their classrooms..
<mhall119|work> ogra: there are plenty of custom scripts in the livesystem, it doesn't cause much more maintenance
<mhall119|work> alkisg: I do
<alkisg> mhall119|work: while teaching?!
<mhall119|work> no
<mhall119|work> but teachers aren't at school just during teaching hours
<ogra> mhall119|work, there arent
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: they do! things change the whole time which breaks those scripts
<mhall119|work> at least not here in the USA they aren't
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: like what?
<mhall119|work> I'm talking about the casper scripts that create the live-session user and install ubiquity
<ogra> mhall119|work, there is only casper ... no custom scripts in the livefs or something
<ogra> mhall119|work, casper doesnt install a thing
<mhall119|work> so we add another casper script
<mhall119|work> ogra: I thought it did, I could be wrong
<highvoltage> is this still about moodle or am I missing something?
<ogra> highvoltage, somehow drifted away
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: it's about making sure moodle doesn't have terrible performance if we included it in the live session
 * ogra goes back to hack bootloaders 
 * alkisg goes back to ltsp-build-client plugins for italc, ssh keys etc :D
 * highvoltage goes back to trying to beat the wiki into shape
<alkisg> Ooooh wiki day
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: we can have a session for that for lucid+1 ;)
 * mhall119|work goes back to UserDay lesson plan, school, work and Qimo
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: I would like that, yes
<highvoltage> yay less talking and more doing \o/
<ogra> highvoltage, use a shovel :) i had good success with that :)
<highvoltage> ogra: yes I had to bury plenty of pages today!
<ogra> cool
<ogra> anyway, really back to work, else we wont have an armel port in lucid :)
 * mhall119|work has to right a report on the security threats faces by a gas station....
 * mhall119|work has 11 hours to do so
<mhall119|work> anyone here have experience knocking over convenience stores?
<highvoltage> not on purpose, no
<mhall119|work> lol
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> ogra: do you still want https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuClassmatePC ?
<highvoltage> (the information there doesn't seem particularly useful)
<alkisg> Wow! long time no see... :) Hi nubae
<nubae> hi alkisg
<nubae> yeah took a break from the computer for a while
<nubae> it was needed
<alkisg> You did the right thing :)
<nubae> now I'm invigorated and ready to get back to work
<alkisg> I gave someone your email about some fat client installation, did he contact you?
<nubae> yeah wasnt easy at first
<nubae> but then it was like being free
<nubae> I'll have to check my mail, when I say I stayed away from the computer that includes email
<nubae> :-)
<alkisg> Heh :)
<alkisg> No it was for a paid job, so you'd remember it :)
<nubae> I guess I'll have a couple thousand mails to go through
<nubae> well, I didn't read my mail
<nubae> but will do immedialty
<nubae> since paid is good
<nubae> was it a long time ago?
<alkisg> Yup
<alkisg> Last year :D
<nubae> ah well.. maybe too late then
<nubae> still, I'll check... could u give me his email so I can do a search?
<highvoltage> nubae: \o/
<alkisg> Hmmm I think I sent you one too, so check for mine
<nubae> ok
<nubae> greets highvoltage
<highvoltage> hey nubae, good to see that things are going well
<nubae> sorry for not being around, but needed some time away from all electronics
<highvoltage> did you also wear a tinfoil hat?
 * highvoltage ducks
<nubae> lol
<nubae> :-)
<nubae> nah just watched lots of conspiracy documentaries
<nubae> anyway, good thing is, my mind is clear now and I'm ready to dive back into work
<nubae> hey, what do u know about suse moblin?
<alkisg> Uhm, nothing?
<nubae> seems to be suses answer to ubuntu mobile edition
<nubae> made for netbooks
<nubae> http://en.opensuse.org/Moblin
<highvoltage> there'
<highvoltage> there's an ubuntu moblin remix disc as well
<nubae> oh
<nubae> think its worth installing on a netbook
<nubae> ?
<nubae> I'm l9ooking for something usable
<highvoltage> I don't know, I've been meaning to try it out since karmic has been released but haven't had the time
<highvoltage> it looks really cool though
<highvoltage> (moblin, that is)
<nubae> I'll gove it a shot... needs to be built by hand though right?
<nubae> there arent any isos I can see
<highvoltage> nubae: I'll get you a link...
<highvoltage> nubae: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/9.10/release/
<nubae> nice one thanks
<mhall119|work> last I heard moblin was still pretty beta, but that was like 6 months ago
 * mhall119|work leave for lunch
 * mhall119|work leaves
<nubae> I got an offer from razorfish in Madrid
<nubae> I know the name from somewhere
<nubae> think it was one of the big dot com bubble web companies
<nubae> d9oes it ring a bell for u guys?
<highvoltage> I don't recognise it
<nubae> I thought I read an article about them in wired
<nubae> they kind of contacted me out of the blue
<nubae> though I'm more looking forward to a possible job in SA
<nubae> with hilton theunisson
<nubae> who I believe u know quite well highvoltage
<highvoltage> nubae: yep, he told me about you
<nubae> would be nice to see SA, though everyone tells me its too dangerous
<nubae> though that all comes from rumours of people who have never even visited
<nubae> so...
<highvoltage> nubae: I was in Jo'burg for a while and I didn't like it, people live like prisoners in their own homes because they're too afraid of crime
<nubae> yeah joburg doesnt sound to freindly
<nubae> where do u live now, capetown?
<highvoltage> nubae: cape town is quite different though. better climate, not the violent crimes... if you're a tourist you might get pick-pocketed but I guess it's like that in any city
<highvoltage> yep
<nubae> yep indeed, I got mugged pretty badly in Berlin
<nubae> so...
<nubae> how are job opportunities for open source work in SA?
<Tm_T> SA?
<nubae> south africa
<Tm_T> roger
<highvoltage> nubae: if you want to work for government or the corporates then Jo'burg/Pretoria has more linux work, but it's not for me
<highvoltage> nubae: cape town has offices for larger companies that do lots of open source work, like Amazon and Yola, etc
<nubae> not sure why, but I have a strange attraction to South Africa... maybe cause its the home origin of ubuntu... not sure... but I'm looking for opportunities over there, so if u hear of anything, please let me know...
<highvoltage> I think technically England would be the home of Ubuntu, well the distribution at least :)
<nubae> yeah :-)
<nubae> but England is not the nicest of places to live
<nubae> I lived in London for 3 years, and the fast paced miserable lifestyle wasnt for me
<highvoltage> my father worked there for 2 years and also said people there were miserable
<highvoltage> although he later worked in birmingham for a bit and said that people were better there
<sbalneav> Of/win 9
<alkisg> I want to automatically add the "edubuntu stable updates" ppa to my school chroots, to get useful updates. I'll need its key, but it doesn't yet have one. Will it be the same as the one in https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-dev/+archive/edubuntu-testing ?
<HedgeMage> alkisg: I have no idea, but that's the sort of thing ogra usually knows.
<alkisg> Nah it's too late for ogra now, I bet he's either on his couch watching TV or at some bar :D
<alkisg> I guess stgraber would know, but I didn't want to distract him...
<sbalneav> alkisg: Good one, not sure.
<stgraber> alkisg: it won't
<alkisg> Hmmm any idea when it will be available?
<alkisg> If it'll be before the Lucid release, it'll be fine :)
<alkisg> Heh, the key for "edubuntu-testing" is named "Launchpad Edubuntu Work in Progress"... I wonder how will the "Edubuntu Work in Progress" be named :D
<highvoltage> ogra watches TV!?
 * ogra is in a phone meeting :P
<ogra> i'd love to the new season of lost started 1h ago :)
<ogra> (luckily i have a PVR)
<ogra> alkisg, it will be available around beta
<alkisg> Danke ogra
<ogra> :)
<alkisg> I can send you the old seasons if you like!
<ogra> nah
<ogra> saeson 5 just started in germany ...
<ogra> and when 6 starts in the US i'll actually be in portland and take a sneak preview ;)
<alkisg> I've been watching the first 3 seasons while ironing :P but I haven't watch it since...
<highvoltage> ironing!?
<ogra> comes from irony ;)
<highvoltage> heh
 * alkisg will laugh in 10 years when you happy youngsters will have 3-4 kids each :D
<highvoltage> 4 kids in 10 years!? eek
<highvoltage> I don't think I have the energy
 * highvoltage tries out moblik remix on mac mini instead
#edubuntu 2010-01-22
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: ping :)
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: pong
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: I'll try and finish all the bugs tnoight, my exams are over yay!!
<HedgeMage> lol yay :)
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: https://bugs.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bug/504554 is this one done ?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 504554 in edubuntu-website "check comment module configuration" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: not afaik...but I'm not sure what the folks here want as far as a comment set-up either
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: I enabled the advanced_forum module, and the other little modules that do with it, can you go ahead and have a look on the website, and tell me what needs to be done for the taxonomy module
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: give me a sec to set up what we'll need for the forum <--> mailing list bridge, then we'll attack the rest of the advanced_forum stuff together...it takes a bit of config magic
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: can you tell me what changes you are making, I want to learn more about these modules :)
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: If you give me a minute to have my housemate forward some ports I can set up a VNC session for you to watch :)
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: sound like a plan?
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: great :)
<HedgeMage> do you have a jabber client that can handle voice chat, or failing that, Skype?
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: nope, I have google talk though but that doesn't support voice thing, but there is epiphany
<dhillon-v10> *empathy
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: wait i can use video stuff in empathy
<HedgeMage> hold on a sec, hollaring @ housemate :)
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: I need to switch WMs (flux has been acting odd with VNC lately) so bear with me another minute :)
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: np :)
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: okay, on gnome, turned off my pretty desktop and all transparency so as to save bandwidth
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: are we using jabber or skype?
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: oh wait, jabber I think.
<HedgeMage> my jabber ID is hedgemage@jabber.binaryredneck.net so just add me and initiate a voice chat when ready
<HedgeMage> welcome back, dhillon-v10
<HedgeMage> <HedgeMage> my jabber ID is hedgemage@jabber.binaryredneck.net so just add me and initiate a voice chat when ready
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: yeah, I got that message don't worry that's other me
<HedgeMage> grr... do you have skype?  I'm using the development version of gajim and it's getting crashy when I turn on Jingle
<HedgeMage> not sure why
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: do I need a web-cam, I just broke mine like yesterday
<HedgeMage> nope, was just planning on voice and VNC
<HedgeMage> (VNC lets you view my screen as I work)
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: wait so you are running Ubuntu right, i know about VNC and I see you in jabber, but if you have empathy you just have to right click and then share desktop
<HedgeMage> I have no idea wtf empathy is
 * HedgeMage sees if it is installed
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: you know what sorry for all that trouble, let's not worry about that, sorry again for wasting a lot of time on that
<HedgeMage> no, don't be sorry, I'm looking up empathy now :)
<HedgeMage> I don't exactly have a stock ubuntu system here... I've been at this since 1994 so I don't play with all the new gui toys that often
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: brb gotta eat dinner :)
<HedgeMage> ok
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: back, dinner was good, did you eat yet ?
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: Yep, a while ago...the steaks were cheap and not that good, but OMG the fresh baked bread!
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: ping?
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: pong :) sorry working on this critical bug that could screw up a lot in kde
<HedgeMage> np
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: we can do this later if you like
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: sure, right now edubuntu bugs and kde bugs, vnc stuff later on then :)
<HedgeMage> That's a plan
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: alright I scrolled through the site permissions and they seem to be fine :)
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: can you run the update script, thanks another one (site-docs) down :)
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: here: http://edubuntu.frogandowl.org/admin/build/sitedoc
<HedgeMage> update script?  New modules don't require that, just updates to existing code
 * HedgeMage is confused
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: ahh okay, I was talking about the update.php or something like that
<HedgeMage> update.php only runs when we change something (module or drupal core) to a newer version
<HedgeMage> cron.php should run occassionally, but you can do that manually from the status page
<HedgeMage> (it'll run automatically in production, but running it say during a git commit is bad so we do it manually during development)
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: ahh okay :) we have about 4 more to go yay!!! help me with this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bug/504556
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 504556 in edubuntu-website "check path module configuration" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: leave that for now, I have a question on site organization for highvoltage first
<HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: pm?
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: okay then, i am working on the last one I can (the rest are yours: design new theme and feedback stuff) its the php filter one
<dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: sure :)
<alkisg> Good morning all
<vmlintu> morning
<vmlintu> The user management discussion yesterday looks interesting.
<vmlintu> I'm just looking in to ways how I could get involved in it..
<alkisg> vmlintu: you'd better wait till sbalneav shows up and talk to him...
<alkisg> It's a post-Lucid goal... how do you think you could contribute? coding? configuration examples?
<vmlintu> We are now running ldap+kerberos+nfs4 with ltsp/fat clients, so I could get some working examples out
<alkisg> "fat" clients or standalone workstations?
<vmlintu> pxe booting fat clients on top of ltsp
<alkisg> Wow, nice... did you use nubae's script for that, or is it something custom-made?
<vmlintu> I'm now also working on coding new user management tool to better integrate moodle+elgg+mediawiki+what else with schools' user databases
<vmlintu> The code will be out next week, I hope
<vmlintu> The fat client stuff is custom made as it's running kerberos+nfs4
<alkisg> I guess with the new fat plugin you could do the same by configuring kerberos+nfs4 on the ltsp server only...
<alkisg> Anyway, sbalneav's your man for this :)
<vmlintu> We had to go with nfs4 as sshfs caused too many problems..
<alkisg> What problems?
<vmlintu> some of the applications didn't work as they didn't like sshfs
<alkisg> Did you try with SSH_FOLLOW_SYMLINKS=True|False?
<vmlintu> Is that in karmic?
<alkisg> Not sure... maybe a few weeks _after_ karmic was released...
<vmlintu> I think the problem was with file locking
<vmlintu> Some applications just refused to start as they couldn't read and write in user's home
<vmlintu> We are not running karmic ltsp in production, so I haven't tried sshfs with it
<alkisg> Right, I had that with googleearth and I solved it with SSH_FOLLOW_SYMLINKS
<vmlintu> ok, I'll have to have a look at it
<alkisg> I'm not sure how old is that parameter, it might even be in hardy...
<alkisg> grep your sources for it
<vmlintu> I remember there also being some performance issues with large files also, but I cannot remember everything anymore
<vmlintu> But we settled with kerberos so that we got single sign on working with firefox also
<alkisg> Yeah sure sshfs=encrypted=safe=slow, nfs=unencrypted=unsafe=fast...
<alkisg> vmlintu: do you think such a solution could be packaged and be easily used in e.g. small schools?
<vmlintu> nfs4 supports encryption
<alkisg> And it's faster than sshfs? wow..
<vmlintu> If sshfs is used and the actual home directory is on a file server that is mounted through an ltsp server, it gets transferred twice, before it gets to the client..
<vmlintu> With nfs you can mount it directly from the same server where ltsp server gets it from
<vmlintu> We got now working scripts to get all this working on ubuntu quite easily.
<vmlintu> Getting mediawiki+moodle+elgg working with single sign on is the next step. Having the kerberos ticket is a killer here..
<vmlintu> So yes, I'm really hoping to get it all working also for small setups. Though, I doubt that this could be made as the default setup as debugging possible problems is a pain
<alkisg> It doesn't have to be the default setup... if it was e.g. as easy as `sudo apt-get install edubuntu-nfs-ldap-kerberos-server`
<ogra> it has to be upgradeable though and match the packaging standards (i.e. not modify config files etc)
<ogra> i would suggest a wikipage howto with the scripts attached for a start ;)
<vmlintu> The last part is the problem now. The scripts mess with the config files big time..
<ogra> right, yxou can work around that by enhancing the packages but that takes time
<ogra> i.e. make them read a /etc/<packageconfig>.d/ directory and grab configs from there
<ogra> so that you only have to dump config files in there that override the packaged version
<vmlintu> something like that would probably be needed
<alkisg> I think also ebox has some plugins that handle ldap + kerberos...
<alkisg> I wonder if those could be used
<ogra> not sure it fulfills the purpose though
<vmlintu> for the actual user management we have now a web based tool that takes care of ldap+samba+kerberos
<ogra> ebox is actually a standalone thing for co-location servers i wonder how well it blends in with standard infrastructure
<alkisg> They're also developing a new ebox-desktop package, that would be able to automatically integrate ubuntu clients to samba or AD...
<ogra> sweet
<alkisg> And I think they're also transferring some settings to users with it (empathy accounts etc)
<vmlintu> I wonder when ubuntu one gets syncronisation working for all user settings..
<alkisg> Well currently it just crashes on startup on my lucid box :D
<alkisg> ogra: do you think it would be a good idea to upload a bunch of ltsp-build-client plugins to the UbuntuLTSP/* wiki? Those that would be useful in some cases, but not generic enough to include upstream... e.g. a "blacklisted-packages" or a "copy-italc-keys" or a "setup-passwordless-ssh" plugin?
 * alkisg will make a dozen of them in the next few days...
<vmlintu> My favourite ltsp hack is a script that loads a file through tftp while the image boots and executes it. Makes it possible to modify the image on the fly just by modifying the file on the server..
<ogra> alkisg, and why would you not include them upstream ?
<ogra> alkisg, if they are useful on ubuntu just include them in the plugins/Ubuntu dir
<ogra> as long as they are optional
<alkisg> Nice! OK, I'll do that as long as noone objects. :)
<vmlintu> alkisg: I put together a quick blog article about what's been happening with user management in the schools that I work with if you are interested: http://www.opinsys.fi/user-management-rethought
<vmlintu> I try to write more about the details next
<alkisg> vmlintu: thank you, I'll read it in a while :)
<Tm_T> vmlintu: nice
<Tm_T> vmlintu: and hi
<alkisg> vmlintu: "Whatâs the killer feature that Iâm missing?" ==> a way for the teachers to do all that when sysadmins are not affordable :)
<vmlintu> Tm_T: thanks
<vmlintu> alkisg: sounds easy ;)
<vmlintu> alkisg: actually we have many schools where teachers could never install even firefox in the system themselves, but they are comfortable creating users with the web based tools
<alkisg> vmlintu: well, as long as those web tools could be installed by a computer teacher, I could use them here as well.
<alkisg> But if an experienced sysadmin is needed to setup ldap/kerberos/nfs4 and the web tools, so that the teachers can then use them, then good as they might be, these tools are useless to my area...
<vmlintu> the web tools require now a working kerberos setup before they can be used
<alkisg> Yes, and currently I don't know of any easy way to install kerberos, that a simple computer teacher could use...
<vmlintu> I think I have to start working on packaging..
<alkisg> :)
<alkisg> Now you're talking!
<vmlintu> We are actually coding a new system as described in the article
<alkisg> Have you seen ebox? Maybe you could join forces?
<vmlintu> I did evaluate it a while back, but back then it didn't suit our needs. A lot has changed since that, it looks like..
<sbalneav> Morning all
<vmlintu> good afternoon
<vmlintu> sbalneav: did you read the user management discussion we had earlier with alkisg?
<sbalneav> No, I didn't.
<sbalneav> I'll backscroll
<vmlintu> I've been trying to figure out how to get the stuff we have for user management + ldap + kerberos to be useful for others too
<sbalneav> Well, some of the stuff that you've done might nicely slot into the plugin architecture I have envisioned for the user management tool I've begun to outline.
<vmlintu> Just dumping out it would make no sense as it's got too much history load
<sbalneav> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Specifications/NewUserAdminTool
<sbalneav> Feel free to add onto the spec
<vmlintu> Did I understand correctly that the user management tool will be a local application, not a webapp?
<sbalneav> yes
<sbalneav> We'd like something that will be useful to plug into System->Administration
<ogra> vmlintu, you could write a webserver hook/plugin for it if you feel like ;)
<vmlintu> ogra: hmm.. just separate the gui from the user manipulation part and it should be doable..
<ogra> i thought thats the plan
<sbalneav> right
<vmlintu> we have now a web app that can do e.g. user mass imports from messy data
<vmlintu> The main purpose of it is to provide better integration with web apps like moodle, mediawiki and elgg
<vmlintu> I'd be happy to dump direct ldap connections and use the new outlined tool to create the users in ltsp servers
<sbalneav> Perfect.
<sbalneav> Post lucud, we'll start hacking :)
<vmlintu> Managing users with a local application doesn't really work for us as we need to be able to do it remotely..
<ogra> and
<ogra> if you have a desktop app that is running on every desktop but a backend that connects to the auth server, does that matter
<vmlintu> we have a pile of separate systems that are administered from a single location
<vmlintu> so there would need to be a way to select the correct backend
<ogra> right, but i see no reason why the protocol has to be http
<ogra> you can have a local UI and have the app talk to the server transparently
<vmlintu> http came in the picture when we started having schools where admins used windows boxes to create the users..
<ogra> and sure, if the remote option is enabled and you have multiple servers to maintain, it should be possible to enasble such a feature
<sbalneav> vmlintu: Well, it may just be that the tool we're outlining doesn't work for you in your situation.
<sbalneav> It's impossible to make a tool be all things to all people.
<vmlintu> sbalneav: I'm hoping that it would work at least partly. If there'd be a way to create two front-ends to it, I could get quite a bit work done for the backend connections too
<mhall119|work> you can always X-forward the tool from the machine it runs on to a remote display
<vmlintu> What I'd have now ready is a set of ldap schemas that works for schools at least over here. Kerberos setup works also using ldap as backend. And perl code to manage the ldap.
<vmlintu> I'll start going through things next week and see what the current needs here actually are. I hope I can clean the existing scripts to help others too on this..
 * highvoltage stumbles in after being stuck in traffic for a few hours
<dgroos> I'd like to try to get italc working, again, and I'm pretty sure I need to get completely rid of current italc stuff.  Is there a better way than typing, "locate italc" which gives me a list of all files that have that string in their name, then "sudo rm" each one?  I hope...
<alkisg> dgroos: sudo rm -rf /etc/italc
<alkisg> sudo rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/italc
<dgroos> alkisg: cool, thanks, then I'll try a 'sudo apt-get install italc-master'.
<dgroos> Also, what's your phd gonna be about?
<alkisg> dgroos: right, and after the installation reboot everything (including the server) and see if it works
<alkisg> My phd will be about automatically converting from pseudocode <=> diagrams... I have an IDE for pseudocode, I'll add diagrams + conversion techniques and then study how that could help kids learning programming
<alkisg> (flowcharts)
<dgroos> Would this be some form of graphical programming (i.e. not so much text based)?
<dgroos> Tools like this don't already exist?  How's it different?
<alkisg> Screenshots of my existing tool are here:
<alkisg> http://users.sch.gr/alkisg/screenshots/
<alkisg> The new thing is that it'll automatically convert from pseudocode to flowchart, and vice-versa. There aren't any proper tools for this, and whatever little is out there has not been studied as part of some research..
<dgroos> Bable fish chickened out of translating the page, but google translate did this: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.sch.gr%2Falkisg%2Fscreenshots%2F&sl=el&tl=en Which, I somewhat understood.  Cool idea.  Though I'm not a coder, seems like a great tool if you can get the quick feedback, in a visual way.
<dgroos> alkisg: shouldn't I also get rid of: .italc stuff, /usr/lib/italc (and in chroot) and /opt/ltsp/i386/share/ltsp/xintrc.d/I15-italc?
<alkisg> dgroos: no, ignore those, the keys are what's causing trouble to most users
<dgroos> 'k
<dgroos> As an aside, sort of, does it matter if I run the install command from a thin client or from the server?
<alkisg> No, except that in both cases you need to logoff for the program to run. Well just reboot everything when you're done to be sure :)
<dgroos> alkisg: Do I need to get infront of the server or should I be able to start italc from NX access to the server?  I'm trying to do italc via NX access to the server and get key pair issues.
<dgroos> In other words, is my authentication issue with italc related to my NX access to the server?
<alkisg> dgroos: no NX shouldn't be a problem. Try this: avahi-browse -trp _italc._tcp
<alkisg> ...and paste the results to pastebin
<dgroos_> alkisg: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/360813/
<dgroos_> I ran it on the NX, should I do on the thin client?  matter?
<alkisg> =;eth0;IPv4;italc\032ltsp61;_italc._tcp;local;ltsp61.local;192.168.0.61;5900;"ltsp61"
<alkisg> ==> italc is NOT uninstalled from the chroot
<alkisg> You should remove it from the chroot, and rebuild your image
<dgroos> should I have run an update of image before/after install?
<alkisg> Either that, or properly copy the keys to the chroot...
<alkisg> No
<alkisg> You should have ran an update after you removed it from the chroot,
<dgroos> after I copy the keys, update chroot?
<alkisg> dgroos: weren't you trying the "only install it on the server" method?
<alkisg> To try that, you need to remove italc from the chroot
<alkisg> You didn't remove it...
<dgroos> OK, I'll remove all italc-ish stuff first!
<alkisg> dgroos: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get purge italc-client libitalc
<alkisg> and sudo ltsp-update-image
<dgroos_> will do!
<sbalneav> Holy Dinah!
<sbalneav> Alkis goes for a bug-closing spree!
<sbalneav> \o/
<sbalneav> Man, all I need to do is check if we've cut new LTSP packages since the bug day, and then a bunch of those "Fix Committed"'s become Fix Released
<sbalneav> and LTSP will no longer be the buggiest package
<sbalneav> pitivitiitvitivitittiititvi will be.
<dgroos_> alkisg: OK--tried the: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get purge italc-client libitalc and got the message (along with some other things): http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/360833/
<dgroos_> (I belatedly note that alkisg went to bed...) anyone, do you know if this line of output: is a problem: Can not write log, openpty() failed (/dev/pts not mounted?)?
 * mhall119|work isn't fond of pitivi
 * mhall119|work likes OpenShot better
<alincoln> dgroos_: not a problem as far as i know
<dgroos_> alincoln: thanks.  I've been working on this italc thing, didn't work again so am removing every 'italc' containing file (except the launchpad stuff of course).
<alincoln> gotcha.  i see that message when doing package stuff inside the chroot all the time, and it's nothing to worry about
<dgroos_> cool.
#edubuntu 2010-01-23
<sbalneav> stgraber: M'aidaiz!
<sbalneav> hmmm, not good
<sbalneav> Well, *THAT* sucked.
<dgroos> *THAT* being...?
<sbalneav> Machine locked up
<sbalneav> When I rebooted, machine wouldn't boot.
<sbalneav> period
<sbalneav> turns out, my bios had gotten a checksum error, and had reset itself
<sbalneav> so my bios clock was back to 2007
<sbalneav> fsck wouldn't allow the system to boot, since the time that the last mount happened was in the future.
<sbalneav> Took me an hour to realize what was going on.
<dgroos> Didn't know that could happen...
<dgroos> How did you finally crack it? Was the Bios still able to do its thing and you then just changed it?
<sbalneav> Took me a while to turn off the *&%($(&^$( graphical boot
<sbalneav> once I did that, I saw what the error message was.
<sbalneav> Then I fixed it.
<joerg> hi
<joerg> does edubuntu have or plan to include a web gui to make collaboration easier?
<dgroos> joerg: can you elaborate?
<dgroos> I'll be in and out of here randomly but will be checking...
<joerg> dgroos, well, we have about 200 schools here using linux servers for tasks like: samba, ftp, imap, homepage, proxy (filtered), etc. - and students and teacher have a nice web gui where they can read mail, upload files and share them in groups, etc.
<joerg> dgroos, and I wonder if something like that is planned for edubuntu as well
<joerg> because we are looking for an open source solution to do the same stuff....:)
<sbalneav> joerg_: Both egroupware and phpgroupware are in the repositories and can be installed and configured
<joerg_> sbalneav, yeah and many other stuff :)
<joerg_> phpgroupware is not a web gui that focuses on a school's needs :P
<sbalneav> Well, what are the schools you're talking about using?
<sbalneav> We also have moodle.
<sbalneav> joerg_: Any idea what the schools you're talking about are using?
<joerg_> iserv
<joerg_> :P
<sbalneav> Not seeing it in any of the repos.  Got a homepage reference for it?  Maybe it just needs packaging?
<sbalneav> joerg_: I'm not sure exactly what your requirements are, or what you're wanting this software to do.  If this is something that doesn't currently exist, that you'd like a Fee Software equivalent, then what I'd suggest is posting to the edubuntu-devel list with a set of requirement.
<sbalneav> At that point, we could work on a blueprint for what you'd like the project to do exactly, then it could be looked at as something that could be written.
<joerg_> sbalneav, www.iserv.eu - but it is german only.
<joerg_> sbalneav, well, I don't need somebody to develop it ;)
<joerg_> I just wanted to know if somebody has it as free software and I simply haven't found it or if somebody likes the idea and wanna join the developer team ;)
<sbalneav> So this iServ isn't Free software?
<joerg_> sbalneav, the concept of that iserv is basically: a debian based linux distribution that is easy to install and preconfigured. that's what we do not need.....because we have edubuntu.
<joerg_> no it isnot.
<joerg_> anyway: after you have this iserv running: you have one and only one web gui to do everything.
<joerg_> as an "admin" you can add new students and teachers and put them in groups, but you don't have to be root
<joerg_> even though they get a normal user account
<joerg_> there are group folders stored in /group/myclass - accessible by all group members (rw) via the web gui and samba, ftp.
<joerg_> as well as your own homedir of course.
<joerg_> then you can read and write mail from username@myschool.edu
<joerg_> your mailbox is accessible by imap and pop3 as well
<joerg_> you can manage your contacts, appointments, etc. - the normal groupware stuff.
<joerg_> teachers can block internet access to all computers in the classroom
<sbalneav> Well, as for the user admin tool, we have a spec for that:
<sbalneav> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/NewUserAdminTool
<joerg_> students can print out documents and pay for it.
<sbalneav> The web mail bit can be handled by any one of a number of webmail clients available
<sbalneav> blocking internet access is fairly easy with LTSP
<sbalneav> Don't know off the top of my head about the printing.  I know cups has accounting, you'd just need some kind of web interface to it.
<joerg_> sbalneav, but we don't want a tool here and a tool there.
<joerg_> we have got that iserv stuff on 200 servers for only one reason: you can do everything you need in one place.
<sbalneav> joerg_: Then you'll have to help get involved with us in writing one :)
<joerg_> indeed.
<joerg_> that's what I am trying to do :)
<sbalneav> Because currently, there isn't a Free software tool that does all that.
<joerg_> sbalneav, my idea is: an all in one web based gui
<joerg_> that can load modules
<joerg_> e.g.: the school is running that tool, it is themed with a common look and feel, provides a "welcome page", does the auth and builds a navigation tree.
<sbalneav> Sounds great.  Write up a spec on launchpad's Blueprints section.
<joerg_> sbalneav, ok ;)
<joerg_> so basically, the admin can say: ok, the school has a library, I want the library module
<joerg_> and voila....the navigation tree shows a link "library" and students can search the library for books
<joerg_> get notifications by mail if they have to return a book immediately
<joerg_> or build a list with their favorite books
<joerg_> or mark that they would like to borrow a certain book after somebody who is reading it atm has returned it.
<joerg_> that would be one example for a module
<joerg_> sbalneav, the mail module could provide a simple imap client - depending on the configuration, it could simply access gmail servers.
<joerg_> or the school has it's own mail server and adresses like me@myschool.edu
<sbalneav> Big project you've got there. :)
<joerg_> not that big....
<joerg_> sbalneav, and well, I have somebody who would even pay me for it :)
<joerg_> sbalneav, I am just trying to find the right starting point. because I don't like to signup another great sourceforge project that nobody knows :P
<sbalneav> Got some errands to run.  I'll be back in a bit.  Write up a spec on blueprints, and make a posting to edubuntu-devel.  I'm sure you'll have people interested in helping.
<highvoltage> hey
<alkisg> joerg_: _some_ of the things you say can be done by the ebox platform. It also has a plugin infrastructure, so if you chose that platform for development, you might be able to add library modules etc.
<alkisg> They have plugins for mail, for AD/samba integration, for XMPP server with automatic account installation for users etc
<joerg_> alkisg, mhhm, let me have a look at it....
<alkisg> And you can manage everything from the web UI
<joerg_> well....
<joerg_> but is it for the users?
<joerg_> looks more like a big web based admin tool :)
<joerg_> that is probably a bit overkill for a school
<joerg_> a teacher doesn't know what all that stuff is
<joerg_> e.g. an ip adress ^
<joerg_> the only administrative stuff they need to do is adding users and groups
<joerg_> if you provide them with more functionality they will be confused and not use the tool at all:)
<dgroos> joerg: just got back...
<dgroos> Looking at what you said about 1.5 hours ago, it looks like you are looking for an intranet--web based mail and file exchange.  I have been using plone cms for that for years and am very pleased with it.
<dgroos> It's open source, highly active support community, and like other popular cms's it is quite customizable with addons.
<dgroos> http://plone.org
<joerg> dgroos, mhhm....are u sure?
<joerg> does it deal with "real" users?
<dgroos> also there is an education branch that does tons of edu-stuff, I forgot the name of it--it didn't meet what I needed, haven't checked it recently.
<dgroos> I'm sure my name is David, beyond that things are up for discussion... ;)
<joerg> but I don't think I can access my plone stuff on a windows network share when I'm at school? :)
<joerg> and send my printjobs to plone, get charged and get the job send to a printer near me
<dgroos> My students are pretty real.  They are learning to make web pages, access files in folders I've put on line.
<joerg> well, but can they access them via samba, ftp, webdav, sftp? :P
<dgroos> Well, I'm talking about an intranet/extranet server, simply.
<joerg> dgroos, can they access "mails" you send them in plone with their favorite mail client?
<joerg> mhhm....but plone is a cms
<dgroos> If I needed students to access mail and so set up the mail server, for sure.
<joerg> mhhm
<dgroos> Plone isn't a front-end for a file system if that's what you mean, at least not really.  You work via a browser eg firefox to browse, upload, edit.  Hmmmm... If you aren't familiar with cms's lets see if I can find a video...
<joerg> probably I have a wrong idea about cmses :P
<joerg> I know what a cms is :D
<joerg> at least I think so
<joerg> and that is exactly my point.
<joerg> I want the filesystem frontend
<joerg> and the mail server frontend
<joerg> and real unix users
<joerg> not a separate user db in some sql db
<joerg> users want to mount their homedir at school on windows and linux machines
<joerg> to quickly store heaps of data
<joerg> and use the web based stuff at home or if they are not logged in to a machine at school
<dgroos> Sounds cool idea.  Isn't this what webdav is?
<dgroos> got to go... will be back.
<joerg> yeah
<alkisg> joerg: ebox does have support for automatic mounting of the users homes, both for linux and windows clients
<joerg> alkisg, but ebox looks like an overkill admin utility that is not suitable for a normal teacher ;)
<alkisg> joerg: a teacher won't use *all* of ebox. The admin will.
<joerg> the admin doesn't need to
<alkisg> The teacher might use the user management tool, and the non-GUI parts of ebox, e.g. automatic home mounting
<joerg> mhhm....
<joerg> can I remove functionality they don't need?
<alkisg> Anyway, if you looked at it, and it doesn't suit your needs, I don't think I have anything more to add :)
<alkisg> It's plugin-based, you only enable the plugins you want
<joerg> the admin is not a teacher in our case, he knows how to edit config files :P
<alkisg> Does he know how to set up empathy for every single student?
<alkisg> Because that is not done by some config file...
<joerg> well
<joerg> alkisg, I am quite sure that nobody wants empathy
<alkisg> Are you really sure?
<joerg> yes
<alkisg> Because I think it offers very good collaboration for local networks
<joerg> we have had heaps of discussions about chats and IM
<alkisg> E.g. remote control, file sharing etc
<joerg> with the result that most schools block these services
<alkisg> Anyway, that was just an example. Another example is that it automatically sets up evolution accounts for the local mail
<alkisg> So the students/teachers don't need to configure their mail clients
<alkisg> ...and again that's just an example
<joerg> well
<joerg> doesn't fit into our concept :P
<alkisg> Anyway, I just proposed to see ebox. You saw it, you don't like it, I don't think there's anything more here :)
<joerg> we think that students should learn and understand how a computer and the internet works.
<joerg> if they want to use empathy and/or evolution they should read the docs and set it up.
<joerg> or ask someobody to help them.
<joerg> alkisg, well, I like it. I just think it is not what they are looking for :)
<alkisg> ok
<joerg> need to get access to a demo server
<joerg> maybe I am wrong.
<joerg> but the problem is not automating stuff like evolution configuration etc.
<alkisg> I think the client part is more interesting than the server part
<joerg> well, that's it
<joerg> we are only doing the server part
<alkisg> ok
<joerg> what they do with their clients....well, that's up to them
<joerg> but mostly they install a windows xp on it
<joerg> with open office and firefox
<joerg> and other free software
<joerg> and they don't want user profiles
<joerg> and specific configs
<joerg> that's overkill
<joerg> it confuses people
<joerg> if they login to a machine and they don't have the same background image, symbols on the desktop e.g. than the person next to them :P
<joerg> alkisg, mhhm.....apart from that: pppoe support comes in 1.4 of ebox :) how should they go online? ^^
<joerg> alkisg, I unfortunately can't find the test server - thought there is one somewhere....but ebox really like "admin's little helper" doing a lot of system stuff and not like a collaboration tool for schools :)
<alkisg> Ah, you were looking for a collaboration tool? I heard about pop3 and ftp and imap and homepage and proxy and samba etc configuration so I probably misunderstood. :)
<alkisg> Anyway, I just thought I'd mention the idea, I don't think it's worth discussing about ebox anymore...
<joerg> alkisg, well.....I am not sure :)
<joerg> alkisg, but yes, you maybe got it a bit wrong. the setup of samba / ftp / proxy is done by the admins. my idea is more a frontend to bundle all the services in a web gui....in the case you don't have your ftp client, mail reader, samba whatever :) e.g. from a netcafe or whatever
<alkisg> I still don't get it. What could a web front end offer about samba to a netcafe user?
<joerg> alkisg, collaboration tool with a corporate identity and single sign on to all services ;)
<joerg> alkisg, nothing. that's why it doesn't need samba stuff :P
<alkisg> Then why did you mention it?
<joerg> alkisg, as a user, you have a homedir
<joerg> you can access it web based when you are in the netcafe
<joerg> and via samba in the local network
<alkisg> So that's a web based file manager. What does that have to do with collaboration?
<joerg> alkisg, because it seemed to be important to me that the webbased thing should be a filesystem frontend....
<joerg> alkisg, you can post files in group folders :P
<joerg> even though that is only a file manager and you could simply use sftp to do the same stuff, it is nice :)
<joerg> teachers will post assignments and materials in the group folder, students for example stuff they found online or their homework....
<alkisg> OK, it's a web file manager and an example of the unix group system :)
<joerg> yes, absolutely true
<joerg> alkisg, but it perfectly works in 200 schools here already :P
<joerg> because it is easy
<alkisg> You can also do that with nautilus...
<joerg> yes
<joerg> if you know how to :)
<joerg> 99% are using the web based gui
<alkisg> I'd prefer my students to learn about how to do it with nautilus than with some proprietary tool
<joerg> even though a sftp client or simply mounting webdav would be a lot faster
<joerg> it is like this because people are lazy.....:P
<joerg> alkisg, lol
<joerg> we are teaching history, maths and stuff
<joerg> and not: how to install linux and nautilus to avoid our webbased backend
<joerg> apart from that, maybe one out of a hundred teachers how to do that :P
<joerg> and even though I know all that stuff, I sometimes use the web frontend....
<alkisg> Well, all my hundends of studends know how to use nautilus to access our shared folders, and none uses a web backend. Each teacher applies what methods suits him... np there.
<joerg> hanging around somewhere, only having a webbrowser and wanting to show somebody a document you got in your homedir
<alkisg> ok
<joerg> alkisg, YOUR students
<joerg> not ALL students
<joerg> I have no resources to teach students at 200 schools how to use sftp and nautilus
<alkisg> Yes, because I chose to teach them that, because they could apply that knowledge elsewhere
<joerg> yes.
<alkisg> I don't like teaching them things that would be of no use to them when they leave our school...
<joerg> alkisg, but the problem here is: teachers can't teach stuff like that.
<joerg> because they know less about computers and internet than their students.
<alkisg> That's where automation comes in
<joerg> alkisg, well, anyway
<joerg> alkisg, I'd teach them concepts and not products
<alkisg> Anyway, we have a different view about those things. No harm done, let's go on to our jobs... :)
<joerg> if they know what files and folders are and how network protocols work, they will be able to work with a filemanager
<joerg> no matter if it is proprietary or not
<joerg> alkisg, no, we don't have different views :P and it is perfect that you teach nautilus.....but I can't force teachers at 200 schools to learn nautilus and teach it to their students :P
<alkisg> I have a shortcut on their desktops for that
<joerg> alkisg, most teachers have no IT skills at all, they use what they know from home and that's their windoze box :P
<alkisg> joerg: I know, I've been teaching in a lot of schools here. I also know that if it's easy, they'll do it even if it isn't windows. And I know how to make it easy for them.
<joerg> alkisg, I have no control over students' or teachers' computers and I will never be able to make any shortcut on any desktop :)
<alkisg> ok
<joerg> that's the point
<joerg> I can't control the clients
<joerg> unless I steal their keys *LOL*
<joerg> and sneak in at night to make a shortcut to nautilus on their box :)
<joerg> is nautilus available for windoze btw.? :)
<alkisg> No
<joerg> alkisg, well, I can't go to teachers and students homes, knock at the door saying hello I am Jesus and will install linux on your computer now :D
<alkisg> Neither can I
<joerg> so you convinced them all? :P
<alkisg> Are you asking how they'd access their files remotely?
<joerg> I am talking about it all the time :)
<joerg> alkisg, that's probably the big misunderstanding we have :P
<alkisg> Well, there are dozens of existing technologies for that, I don't see why I need to use another, proprietary one...
<alkisg> And if I wanted to use a proprietary one, I'd probably use dropbox
<alkisg> It autosynchronizes the files between different OSes
<joerg> alkisg, I think somehow you don't get the point ^^
<joerg> the school is acting as a service provider to the outside world :P
<alkisg> OK. joerg excuse me, I need to get some work done. Talk to you some other time...
<joerg> alkisg, he he.....yeah, see you then :P
<joerg> sbalneav, hey, are u there? ;)
<joerg> sbalneav, don't u think it would make more sense if I start a new project for that idea?
<joerg> sbalneav, I could at least imagine that this tool might be used with other distros as well or even be hosted on some shared webspace when the school doesn't have a server...
<dgroos> alkisg: I spent much of yesterday's 'recordkeeping day' working to get iTALC going.  Finally, after removing every trace of 'italc' from my system except for the launchpad stuff.
<alkisg> So now it's working? nice :)
<dgroos> well, finally got it working at the end of the day. :D I entered the clients and made the list permanent, quit it and restarted and... it didn't work and had to go! :(
<dgroos> It had the same, permission kind of errors.  I was trying to run it on the server via NX.
<dgroos> Well...
<dgroos> I went in this morning to try to get the scanner working and to feed the snake (I'm teaching biology) and for some reason, I tried to start iTALC on the client.  I knew it wouldn't work because I had only installed it on the server.
<dgroos> Of course it then worked, running on a thin client!  How?!  I don't get that program I think.
<dgroos> So, anyway, I'm happy user of the tool though remain in a confused state which I'm trying to ignore :)
<dgroos> Shouldn't it not work on a client?
<alkisg> It should work wherever you sit, be it on the server or on a client
<dgroos> ?  I thought you had to do a client install to be able to use it on a client.  I know that the client install was also so that you could work with clients even when no one was logged in to them.
<alkisg> The first one is not true
<alkisg> The second one is true
<dgroos> Anyway, I'm really *really* REALLY glad it is working :D
<dgroos> right.
<alkisg> But not exactly... e.g. you *can* power on the clients even if you don't have italc installed on them
<dgroos> ? how?
<alkisg> (but that's all you can do when the user is not logged on :D)
<alkisg> You just need to save the list of clients
<dgroos> Do I need to add MAC addresses?
<alkisg> I think it does that automatically
<alkisg> So if you run it once while the clients are logged on,
<alkisg> and then close italc,
<alkisg> and then open its xml file and rename the "autodetected computers" classroom to "dgross classroom",
<alkisg> then you have your list ready
<stgraber> you can rename the classroom from the UI too
<alkisg> Oooh even better
<dgroos> Only last fall did I ever get the autodetected computers to auto-detect.  I've had iTALC working twice since then (including now) and the auto-detect feature didn't work.  So, I entered in the computers 'by hand'.
<alkisg> Ouch
<alkisg> Are you logged on now? Can you try stuff?
<dgroos> I've saved the list and put in the suggested location and made the [path] addition so they all are there now.
<dgroos> Well, I'm at home at the moment, but I could NX to the server from here via vpn.  would that work?
<alkisg> Sure, if there are clients logged on currently...
<dgroos> :( I think I've logged off both computers.
<dgroos> thanks though!
#edubuntu 2010-01-24
<sbalneav> Evening all
<XuzhouJim> OK, here we go.
<XuzhouJim> Or not.
<XuzhouJim> Hmm, seems no one's here.
<sbalneav> Hello
<sbalneav> Sorry, just working on something on another screen.
<joerg> sbalneav, hey..... where do I put that blueprint? :)
<sbalneav> joerg: On launchpad.net
<sbalneav> under the blueprints section
<joerg> sbalneav, yeah, I know
<joerg> sbalneav, to the ubuntu project, right?
<joerg> at least I don't find an edubuntu project there.....
<sbalneav> Yeah, ubuntu's fine.
<joerg> sbalneav, how long can that be?
<sbalneav> How big can the blueprint be, you mean?
<sbalneav> Long as you want.
<joerg> sbalneav, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-portal-server
<sbalneav> k, I'll look at it later.  Thanks.
<sbalneav> Off for breakfast.
<sbalneav> be back later this evening
<highvolt2ge> dgroos: I know you know most of what I explained in that mail, I just overexplained a bit for others
<dgroos> highvolt2ge: It actually was nice seeing it all together, the history and the plans/hopes.  Those kinds of posts are especially nice for people who are kind of new, kind of active but not really solidly in the development current.  Thanks for taking the time.
<highvoltage> ah that's better
 * alkisg didn't know about the ubuntu education list... We really should merge it with edubuntu-users :)
<dgroos> Good Afternoon/evening alkisg :)
<alkisg> Hey dgroos, highvoltage and everyone
<highvoltage> howdy alkisg
<alkisg> highvoltage: how does the fat client plugin work for you? Did you have any problems?
<dgroos> alkisg: Take a look (if you have 2 hours) to read the rather extensive thread entitled "Teachers and Edubuntu and more" started on  Jan 18.  There's a good bit on whether or not to combine lists.  After reading that thread I'm weighing in on the side of keeping those lists separate though just using #edubuntu for live discussions.  just my thought.
<alkisg> Oooh a big one. OK, I may read it tomorrow..
<highvoltage> alkisg: I just have trouble reproducing some of the bugs, I still need to build an edubuntu chroot on top of an edubuntu machine
<highvoltage> alkisg: hoped to do that in lxc but I'll just do it in virtualbox for now
<alkisg> highvoltage: heh, that's a _good_ thing :)
<highvoltage> (probably a safer test anyway)
<highvoltage> alkisg: hehe, yes
<alkisg> Rare bugs are better than common bugs :D
<alkisg> highvoltage: but remember that right now, the code _works_
<alkisg> You need to remove the `umount -l` to see the problem...
<highvoltage> alkisg: :)
<dgroos> Is there a user-list tool that can publish the location of those members on the list that are OK with having that info published?
<dgroos> like a google map presentation.
<dgroos> you know my penchant of liking to be able to picture the people/location of the people I'm talking to :D
<dgroos> *penchant for being*
<alkisg> dgroos: you can see a map on the launchpad page
<dgroos> really!  cool I'll check it out.  Ummm can't find it, any ideas?
<alkisg> dgroos: do you have a link for that "teachers and edubuntu and more" thread?
<alkisg> (about the launchpad page, I was talking about e.g. https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-users - but it appears that the ML isn't linked to a team)
<dgroos> alkisg: check the third thread down on this page: http://www.linux-archive.org/edubuntu-development/
<alkisg> Ah right, I've seen that, I stand with sbalneav
<alkisg> I.e. I don't think that currently there's any need for different irc channels or MLs, but I wouldn't mind if there were...
<dgroos> Interesting--I checked the members list of Edubuntu Users and saw that I wasn't on the list.  This, then, isn't a list of people who are on the list serv.  Seemed like I had applied a while back, but then was taken off the list when voting came up, or something?
<dgroos> Wondering... ought I reapply or... I clicked on the subscription policy but it isn't activated...
<highvoltage> dgroos: hmm, I'm not sure what you mean, we never removed anyone from the list?
<alkisg> dgroos: it's an open team, you just need to press the join button, and you're approved automatically.
<dgroos> I've been searching the user-list logs but can't find the post where someone said it was time to clean out all of the old, not approved members (the list hadn't had any attention for months, I think).  Then, I got an e-mail saying I was removed from the edubuntu group but was encouraged to reapply.  I never got a round tuit.  Need to get some more round tuits ;)
<dgroos> thanks for the info, I'll do it now...
<alkisg> dgroos: maybe you mean "edubuntu-members" instead of users?
<dgroos> perhaps?
<alkisg> That's a moderated team, you cannot join unless there are some prerequisites satisfied...
<dgroos> Yes, that was it.
<alkisg> edubuntu membership is like ubuntu membership, you need to be approved by the council to enter the team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<highvoltage> yeah edubuntu membership = ubuntu membership
<highvoltage> I always thought that 'membership' is a bad name for it
<dgroos> right--I think I signed up when I was so new to this Ubuntu world, there was lots I didn't get at that time, I thought it was more about if you use Edubuntu and want to be more officially part of that community...  I later saw that it was as you said, for those interested in more of a leadership role.
<highvoltage> because you can be a community member without being an 'ubuntu member'
<highvoltage> it more like, 'official contributor' or something
<dgroos> right.
 * alkisg just saw that ubuntu members also have 1 Gb of sftp web space :)
<dgroos> OK, I've got to go and try and focus on correcting papers... :) have a good day/evening all!
<alkisg> Good night
#edubuntu 2011-01-17
<mgariepy> good morning everyone
<highvoltage> moo
<highvoltage> mhall119: this is kind of interesting don't you think? http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/01/unity-update-new-features-options
<mhall119> someone said something to highlight me, but I lost power during a storm and didn't see the message
<mhall119> highvoltage: was it you?
<mgariepy> highvoltage> mhall119: this is kind of interesting don't you think? http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/01/unity-update-new-features-options
<mgariepy> at 10h30 this mornign
<mgariepy> morning*
<highvoltage> that was it, yes
<mhall119> um, I guess it's interesting, does is impact Qimo or Edubuntu?
<highvoltage> mhall119: not directly, it's yet another way to launch things, it could have some potential
<highvoltage> mhall119: but otherwise safe to ignore if you don't care about it
<mhall119> oh, you mean unity in general?
<mhall119> I thought you meant the specific changes they were talking about in that article
<mhall119> like backlit icons and scrolling on indicators
<highvoltage> mhall119: actually, I misread a part of that article and relied too much on the screenshots, just ignore everything I said so far today, let's start over :)
<mhall119> well, I lost the history of everything you've said previous to now, so that's easy enough :)
<highvoltage> heh
<highvoltage> where's that map of greek schools again? I also remember that dinda implemented a more wide-spread map but I've lost the link to that
<dinda> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=215531664534903206889.00048f483fea952f1eaf0&t=h&z=3
<highvoltage> thanks dinda
<ddunn> hello anyone there?
<ddunn> can anyone see me or i need to enable something ?
<ddunn> /hello
<alkisg> Hi
<alkisg> We can see you
<ddunn> oh thanks
<ddunn> recently my printing died on the clients ubuntu 9.10
<ddunn> it was working fine for months
<ddunn> network printing works fine but not local
<ddunn> I'm hoping someone might a have a hint
<ddunn> LTSP is not new to me but I'm dead ended with this issue
<ddunn> must be something with lp_Server or jetpipe
<ddunn> a busted log entry = /printers/DDLaser HTTP/1.1" 200 152936 Print-Job successful-ok
<alkisg> For ltsp issues, you can also try in the #ltsp channel, it usually has more people there that know about ltsp
<ddunn> working entry /printers/HP-LaserJet-M3035-MFP HTTP/1.1" 200 396 Create-Job successful-ok
<ddunn> yeah been trying for a few days no response
<ddunn> well at least I know I can be seen
#edubuntu 2011-01-18
<Ronnie> i heard from mhall119, that edubuntu needs a google map of the current school deployments. Maybe i can help. I have some experience with google map API
<mhall119> Ronnie: somebody has made http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=215531664534903206889.00048f483fea952f1eaf0&t=h&z=3
<mhall119> dinda made that
<mhall119> but I think your API might work better, as it can be dynamically generated
<mhall119> highvoltage: ^^^
<Ronnie> indeed, this is a manually list, which could be hard to handle if it grows
<alkisg> And here's one with some greek schools: http://goo.gl/maps/nOoQ - any hints for improvement would be appreciated :)
<stgraber> having something that uses the google api and works as a drupal module would certainly be useful for edubuntu.org
<Ronnie> stgraber: im totally not into drupal....
<highvoltage> hey
<Ronnie> the information the maps at least  need is: a latitude and longitude of the markers
<Ronnie> preferable in json format
<Ronnie> adding extra information is possible
<Ronnie> stgraber: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-django-foundations/map#locations
<Ronnie> highvoltage: hey too
<mhall119> Ronnie: most of the API is in Javascript right?
<Ronnie> mhall119: yes
<mhall119> so it shouldn't be too hard to add something to drupal to feed it
<Ronnie> if drupal can create a form with a latidude and longitude field and optionally a country/city/adress fields the plugin handles the map, marker
<mhall119> I do believe that's possible
 * mhall119 tried to remember what it was like working with Drupal
<Ronnie> also the server needs to supply a list (in JSON) of markers to show on the map
<mhall119> that may be the harder part
<mhall119> but it's all PHP
<mhall119> so, technically anything is possible
<Ronnie> yes, a PHP array of lattitudes an longitudes can easily be parsed to JSON
<Ronnie> and there sould also be a HTML response to clicking on a marker (also this can be predefined too, if i know which kind of text there should be in the baloons
<Ronnie> where can i find the current drupal site?
<stgraber> I'm currently implemeting JSON support in vmmanager (Edubuntu weblive), it's really quite easy to write a drupal module containing a few forms and exporting data over JSON
<stgraber> the current drupal website (www.edubuntu.org) is running a regular drupal + some popular modules and one extra module (vmmanager) for edubuntu weblive, so nothing really fancy there
<highvoltage> yep, nothing really weird about the edubuntu site
<masai471> I am not sure if this is the best channel or #ltsp.  I have just gotten a request from a small school in Botswana on what computers they should buy.  I am interested in setting it up as something that can be easily managed by someone without advanced IT skill (and installed by someone with only a marginal level of experience with desktop ubuntu)  Does  anyone have some general suggestions
<masai47> How difficult is it to manage a LTSP set up, and if the computers are newer does it make sense for them to be fat clients?
<masai47> I keep timing out (on a very spotty connection in rural Botswana) not sure if I have missed a response
<stgraber> masai47: for just a few computers, it's really quite easy.
<stgraber> masai47: if you install Edubuntu 10.10, LTSP is part of the installer, so it's just an option to tick
<masai47> installed on each computer?
<stgraber> nope, just get two network cards on the server, a switch and connect your clients to that switch. The other card being connected to "internet"
<masai47> or for the computer acting as the server (and how powerful a machine does this need to be)
<stgraber> then install LTSP on the server
<stgraber> and run the rest as thin clients
<stgraber> you can then switch some apps as local apps
<stgraber> like firefox and some other memory/cpu hungry software
<stgraber> fat client is also a possibility for fast thin clients, though it's not as easy to manage
<masai47> ok
<stgraber> as you'll need to add new software in the chroot, update it and reboot all the computers everytime
<masai47> ahh
<stgraber> with regular LTSP, you just need to have the software installed through the software center on the server as you'd on a regular machine
<stgraber> and it'll appear instantly for everyone
<masai47> ok
<masai47> so how powerful does the server have to be/
<stgraber> how many clients do you have ?
<masai47> ?
<stgraber> how many computers are you planning on having in the lab ?
<masai47> 8-10?
<stgraber> ok
<stgraber> so in this case, you should try to get something like a quadcore i5 with something between 4GB and 8GB of RAM for the server. The rest of the computers could be Atom based desktops.
<stgraber> I don't know what's available in your area, but in north america, that kind of server should cost something like 900$ (with everything) and desktops could cost as low as 300$ (everything included)
<masai47> I think the cheap computers that the school is looking at are celeron 430
<masai47> I have no idea on the server
<stgraber> ok, based on what I see on the internet, the celeron 430 should be comparable to a first generation Atom CPU, so that should be fine for the clients
<stgraber> just try to get at least 1GB of RAM in them so you can run firefox locally
<masai47> this is kind of an awkward game of telephone where I am far from the person buying computers
<masai47> yeah they will each have 1gb
<stgraber> ok, so the only thing you'll really need to worry about is the server. Making sure it's got a fast cpu (quadcore being clearly preferred), a lot of RAM and two network cards
<masai47> so will the thin clients use the local hard drives?
<masai47> also, is it possible to have the clients be dual boot
<masai47> how much control would a teacher have from the server?  (and can the server be used while it is acting as a server?)
<stgraber> sorry, on the phone with a customer, be right back
<masai47> no worries
<masai47> thanks for taking the time
<stgraber> alright, I'm back
<stgraber> thin clients won't need a local hard drive, all they need is a network card and a BIOS that's capable of doing PXE boot
<stgraber> the server can be used while acting as a server
<stgraber> whoever needs to add new software to the server will need the admin account
<masai47> ok
<stgraber> if you want to let the teacher watch what the kids are doing, you may want to install iTalc (there's info about it on the wiki)
<masai47> how can i check that the bios is capable of doing PXE boot
<masai47> ok
<stgraber> well, usually you don't really know until you actually have access to the hardware. Once you do, in the boot sequence you should be able to select PXE or Network as a boot device
<stgraber> if the BIOS doesn't support it, you'll need to burn boot CDs with gpxe
<masai47> but there is no way I can look up the hardware specs?
<stgraber> maybe they mention it but it's usually quite rare for that to be written in the specs
<masai47> should the store selling the machines be able to answer?
<stgraber> they might, or at least they should be able to just quickly try it
<masai47> so, dual booting?
<stgraber> they'd just need to reboot the machine, enter the BIOS, go in the boot sequence section
<stgraber> and check if they have something called PXE or Network in there
<stgraber> if they do, then you'll be able to have them boot without a CD
<masai47> there is a chance that school might still want windows on some of the machines (which would require a local disk I guess)
<stgraber> sure, so then having them boot using gpxe might be better for you
<stgraber> if the CD is in the cdrom driver they'll boot using LTSP
<stgraber> if it's not, they'll boot from the harddisk on Windows
<masai47> ok
<masai47> thanks for all the advice, I am always so impressed with ubuntu and IRC help
<stgraber> you're welcome
<masai47> what kind of hard drive(s) should the server have?
<stgraber> masai47: for harddrives it's not really important, you may want two big ones with RAID to avoid data loss in case one of them dies
<masai47> if some of the clients have hard drives can they be used for that (revealing ignorance here)
<stgraber> nope, they can't
<masai47> ok
<masai47> 2x 500gb? (its not a big school)
<masai47> how hard is it to set them up with RAID?
<stgraber> installing from the DVD, I honestly don't really know, though I guess you'll find the information you need by looking up RAID 1 on the wiki
<stgraber> 2x 500GB will be plenty enough
<lemio_> Is ther a alternative to Cabri3D-plug-in
#edubuntu 2011-01-19
<rtdos> 2 questions: what happened to xdm and is there a desktop similar to the one on MacOS?
<mgariepy> good morning everyone
<highvoltage> mhall119: good news! 29 isn't old anymore!
<mhall119> yay?
<highvoltage> mhall119: the bad news is that 25 is now! http://systemoverlord.com/2011/01/19/is-25-old/
<highvoltage> (well you smacked me on IRC because I called 29 old)
<mhall119> aw crap
<mhall119> now 27 is old
<mhall119> that's the wrong direction
<neil_d> i have a ltsp user who can log via one client but not another! what could be wrong?
<alkisg> (11:34:10 PM) ltspbot: alkisg: "compiz" :: the default window manager in gnome is gnome-wm, which automatically chooses compiz if it thinks that the card supports it. Compiz is causing login problems to some clients (LP #673072). To disable it, see !disable_compiz. To restore it, see !restore_compiz
<alkisg> (11:34:19 PM) ltspbot: alkisg: "disable_compiz" :: To disable compiz, try: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 673072 in gnome-session (Ubuntu) "gnome-wm erroneously detects card as compiz capable" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/673072
<alkisg> neil_d: try disabling compiz
<neil_d> alkisg: how do i do that?... i presume you mean on the server
<alkisg> See the "sudo gconftool-2" command 2 lines above
<neil_d> alkisg: is that a temporary thing... we a reboot revert it back to how it was? ... I can't run it atm the server is in use... changing the network cable has at least enabled it to work this once.
<alkisg> No, it's permanent
<neil_d> ok... thanks for the info... I have noted it down..
#edubuntu 2011-01-20
<MMMM> i need some help i cant install edubuntu can i make edubuntu from ubuntu with some packages
<masai47> does anybody have any advice for installing edubuntu on RAID?
<masai47> I am having some difficulties installing Edubuntu on RAID
#edubuntu 2011-01-21
<neil_d> ltspbot
<neil_d> how do I get text from the ltspbot
<masai47> Does anyone have some advice on initial Partition set ups that will be easy to manage but give some level of redundancy, I have tried fiddling with RAID but it does not seem to be an option during install (at least for 10.10).  I have 3x 500GB drives.
<masai47> Ok, I am way over my head on this but I have been tasked with setting up a server for a school that will act as a file server, proxy server, and hopefully also be a LTSP server.  I am not really sure about how to go about starting all of this
<alkisg> masai47: I don't know about raid, never had the hardware to try it. But you can put the OS in one disk, /opt (for the fat client virtual disk) in another disk, and /home in yet another disk
<alkisg> Probably raid would be better, but I can't help you there.
<alkisg> A RAID would give you double disk speed + complete data protection if one of the disks failed.
<masai47> alkisg: is there something that I can do after the fact to give it some level of redundancy or back up.  This will be a school server with out the greatest IT administration
<alkisg> That's unrelated to edubuntu of course, so you can seek help in #ubuntu or the wiki etc
<masai47> well I found some guide online (I think for earlier versions of Edubuntu) that showed installing on RAID really easy
<masai47> but on 10.10 it just does not seem to be an option
<alkisg> If the live cd/dvd doesn't offer raid support, try with the alternate cd
<alkisg> ...and just install edubuntu-desktop on top of it
<masai47> ok
<masai47> is there a way of installing edubuntu-desktop from an iso image rather than the internet?  (very low speed where I am in Africa)
<masai47> also, any advice for 32 or 64 bit?
#edubuntu 2011-01-22
<bluefrog> anyone using nanny without problems? trying to use it on maverick (not edubuntu) but it fails to prevent a user to log when he is not supposed to be allowed log in.
#edubuntu 2011-01-23
<mhall119> highvoltage: any idea what I might be missing for debmower?
<mhall119> I really need to get back on track if I'm going to make alpha2
<highvoltage> mhall119: you're putting together that qimo-desktop meta-package right?
<highvoltage> mhall119: I need to spend some time in it, also want to isolate it in lxc so minimize any risk to the host system
<mhall119> highvoltage: I'm working on that
<mhall119> I've got the 3 listed now, qimo-session, qimo-gdm-theme and qimo-plymouth-theme
<mhall119> it's the isolinux parts of the CD i'm missing
<masai47> I am hoping to add a file server and proxy server to a room with a couple of computers with Edubuntu installed.  Is there a way that the (clients?) can have /home and any other user related files (such as login credentials) on the file server so that settings follow them from computer to computer.  But still have it so that each computer can also boot up and login as standalone if the network is not available?
<bluefrog> anyone using nanny without problems? trying to use it on maverick (not edubuntu) but it fails to prevent a user to log when he is not supposed to be allowed log in.
<masai47> is there support in 10.10 for installing with RAID?
<AlanBell> I was asked to say a few words about edubuntu the other day http://www.youtube.com/user/OpenSourceSchools#p/a/u/2/TlSTQEXpwXE
<mhall119> AlanBell: where was this?
<mhall119> good answer to the 'you mean easy for a geek to install?"
<AlanBell> this was at BETT
<AlanBell> educational trade show for 30,000 attendees
<AlanBell> but this was in a seminar room for maybe 100 people
<AlanBell> quite packed
<mhall119> awesome
<AlanBell> czajkowski was there too
<mhall119> someone must have opened a door, I can hear the 30,000 people outside
<mhall119> lol, "Translate to English"
<AlanBell> :)
<jjido> Hello I am looking at Edubuntu to revive an old laptop
<jjido> what are the system requirements?
<alkisg> How much RAM does the laptop have?
<jjido> I have a Pentium II with 196 MB RAM
<alkisg> I'd suggest that you tried lubuntu or debian/lxde
<alkisg> I think the suggested requirements for Ubuntu nowadays are 1 Gb RAM
<alkisg> ...with 512 being the minimum, as the wiki says
<jjido> I have Ubuntu 6 running on it, but if II can use something more recent... and education-oriented
<alkisg> Edubuntu has the same requirements as Ubuntu, so, 512 minimum and 1 Gb recommented
<alkisg> I'm not aware of any education-oriented recent distros that run on 196 MB RAM
<jjido> I asked on #puppylinux, they suggested an older Edubuntu
<alkisg> If you have ubuntu 6 on it, you can just add the edu* packages
<jjido> how about the Sugar UI? Does it go on top of Linux?
<alkisg> or just apt-get install edubuntu-desktop
<jjido> alkisg: good idea, I will start with that
<bluefrog> is nanny working correctly on edubuntu 10.10? on my "normal" ubuntu 10.10 it dosn't prevent a user to log in.
#edubuntu 2012-01-16
<dgroos> alkisg: sch-scripts.log question--you available?
<alkisg> dgroos: sure
<dgroos> I see: Not a valid chroot: /opt/ltsp/i386 in the log, why might that be?
<dgroos> is it an issue?
<alkisg> dgroos: maybe you tried some of the "enter chroot" menus while you already had such a terminal open
<alkisg> You can't open two of them, because of /proc bind-mounting etc
<dgroos> OK, I think I remember doing that once a couple of weeks ago.
<dgroos> so that entry is recording that event?
<alkisg> Yup
<alkisg> Not really significant...
<dgroos> great, then no prob. thanks :)
<dgroos> I just removed up to sch-daemon.log.2194!
<dgroos> and epoptes.log.1169
<alkisg> We removed much of the logging, it should be smaller from now on... :)
<dgroos> 'k
#edubuntu 2012-01-17
<highvoltage> stgraber: around?
<stgraber> highvoltage: yeah
<highvoltage> stgraber: have some time to review a quick edubuntu story?
<stgraber> dealing with SRUs... pushed 10 or so since this morning...
<highvoltage> stgraber: http://edubuntu.org/2012-01-17/anki-review
<highvoltage> (not yet published)
<stgraber> highvoltage: looking while LP builds ifupdown :)
<highvoltage> ah, ouch
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok, cool
<highvoltage> I need a picture too but I can't think of anything nice to add
<stgraber> highvoltage: hehe, I was just about to say that (well, the, we need a picture) :)
<stgraber> highvoltage: I actually wrote a software like that back when I had to learn huge word lists, was limited to text only though but worked with score per entry, then mixing the failed ones within the well known ones and so on :)
<stgraber> was pretty efficient, could learn 200-300 words in 2-3 hours. Was good for filling short term memory, not so much for long term, but who cares when you're at school :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: cool
<highvoltage> I was actually thinkin that I could use it for French
<stgraber> yeah, should work pretty well if you do it quite often
<highvoltage> stgraber: I still haven't gotten round to reporting my login problem on humboldt, could you perhaps upload https://www.linux.com/images/stories/ss-anki-card-math.png to the server? the drupal file upload thingy doesn't work either.
<stgraber> highvoltage: http://www.edubuntu.org/sites/default/files/images/ss-anik-card-math.png
<stgraber> or not ...
<stgraber> highvoltage: http://www.edubuntu.org/sites/default/files/images/ss-anki-card-math.png
<stgraber> works better without a typo
<highvoltage> indeed
<highvoltage> posted
<stgraber> cool
<stgraber> highvoltage, alkisg: Might be worth writting something about epoptes once alpha-2 is out so we can get testers to actually play with it.
<stgraber> for now the only feedback I got on it is from alkisg and well, he's the upstream ;)
<alkisg> Hehe no I'm not biased :P
<alkisg> I'll send a mail to the edubuntu-users list to call for translators too
<highvoltage> stgraber: yeah, I was thinking that too :)
<alkisg> Once 0.4.0 hits the precise archives
#edubuntu 2012-01-18
<dyllan> Hi all. I would like to move my /opt folder to /home/opt and create a link from /opt to /home/opt can i do this safely, ie. without breaking anything?
#edubuntu 2012-01-19
<alkisg> stgraber: geogebra 4 has become available in debian unstable a few days ago. It has a lot of new features, it'd be nice if we synced it for 12.04, if it migrates to testing before FeatureFreeze, that is...
<highvoltage> alkisg: how so? you can sync from unstable too. or do you mean that it would be nice if debian gives it some testing first?
<alkisg> highvoltage: yup, for the testing part
<alkisg> We wouldn't want a broken package ;)
 * stgraber spent half of his afternoon dealing with edubuntu-artwork's maintainer scripts, package dependencies and dpkg diversions, ended up with an headache ...
#edubuntu 2012-01-20
<MagicFab> Hi - quick question about groupware in Edubunt: I see SOGo packaging mentioned here - https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ServerNewStacks , is there any work to accomplish that for Edubuntu 12.04 ?
<MagicFab> highvoltage, Riddell stgraber ^ maybe you know who knows ? :)
<Riddell> I've no idea
<stgraber> MagicFab: no idea, that's an Ubuntu spec, so might want to ask #ubuntu-server
<stgraber> MagicFab: wiki.edubuntu.org just applies a different css on the Ubuntu wiki, Edubuntu specs are in the /Edubuntu* namespace
<MagicFab> I see, the mirroring thing - hugh - sorry for the disturbance.
#edubuntu 2013-01-14
<newEdubuntu> good after noon
<patClassroom> hello i am looking for a remote  team brower app...for dictation writing project
<alkisg> What does "remote team browser" mean? More details?
<patClassroom> alkisg : to share brownser for a remote classroom project the teacher will dictate , the student will type ; the teacher will be able to see what they type ...
<alkisg> patClassroom: so, "share browser" isn't related to a shared web browser, it's a student screen monitoring tool?
<alkisg> Like epoptes.org or italc.sf.net?
<patClassroom> a audio chat not video conferencing by a browser ...i want to stay lite not a vnc, teamviewer remote desktop
<alkisg> Well for audio chatting there's egika, but many prefer skype instead, and for sharing/typing together with others there's gobby
<alkisg> So you could e.g. have 10 gobby windows open, one for each student, to see what they type in real time
<alkisg> You could even setup a streaming audio server with vlc
<patClassroom> audio chat with skype could go up to 10 receiver ?
<alkisg> I'm not sure about the skype limits, with egika there are not hard limits
<patClassroom> for the writing conference i am testing google document or drive  i can share a file with every student ...i just need the audio solution , need to dictate once for 10 terminal receiver
<alkisg> egika, amsn, all those should work fine, just declare 10 contacts there and you're done
<patClassroom> so every one should install egika and start the server ?   ok alkisg i shall take look thank you ...those student are nepali children , the teacher are french locate in France
<alkisg> Well if their bandwidth is too low, you might want to look to some proxy solution, i.e. to have your mic transferred only once, and then multicasted "locally" in nepal
#edubuntu 2013-01-16
<dievel> Hi!
<dievel> I new to edubuntu. I just installed the Edubuntu 12.04 on a server.
<dievel> With LTSP. Thin clients works out of the box.
<dievel> Now I need some hint on the administration of the users.
<dievel> Is it different form Ubuntu? I'm asking because there is no "User Account" application in Administration Menu.
<dievel> Should I use only the CLI or there are other managers?
<dievel> Ok. I found the "User Account" icon :)
<dievel> But my perplexity remain: which is the good way to manage accounts?
<dievel> Hi, is there anybody?
<alkisg> !ask
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience
<dievel> Sorry :) I was not sure about my irc client. Question: which is best practice to manage user accounts in Edubuntu? The standard "user Account" application or other managers?
<alkisg> It depends on your usage
<alkisg> If you're managing a few users, it's ok
<alkisg> If you have ldap, you need a different tool
<alkisg> If you're using a web interface to manage your server, there are other tools
<alkisg> Some sysadmins also use scripts to create users
<dievel> Well right now I'll start with few users and I'd like to use epoptes too. So I'll stick with standard management or CLI. Thanks.
<alkisg> We developed a user management tool for local use here... we'll internationalize it next year, like we did with epoptes
<isthakur_>  I want to setup an ltsp enviroment for windows os based clients or client that can run some windoes bases softwares such as dreamweaver, photoshop etc I wouldn't mind to use wine or any other windows emulator
<alkisg> isthakur_: and your question is?
#edubuntu 2013-01-19
<Gizmo_the_great> hi. I cant seem to login to the website here to change my profile page as listed here : https://wiki.edubuntu.org/TedSmith
<Gizmo_the_great> When I go to login / register, I click a couple of next buttons and eventually it lists some tick boxe with a "Yes, sign me in" but when I click it it never completes
#edubuntu 2013-01-20
<oo-dragon> hello,  I have been searching all day trying to get my LTSP in Edubuntu (12.04) to auto mount windows user shares.  I think I need some help.  The main sources I have been going to are the man page for pam_mount and a older active directory integration (says its for 9.04)
<oo-dragon> There are a fair amount of posts out there for this, but almost all of them are like 2009 and the ones I have tried just dont work
<oo-dragon> Also I already have windows AD authentication working on LTSP using likewise-open
<highvoltage> oo-dragon: I haven't done it in a while, but just to understand, you want to mount user home directories from windows when they log on?
<highvoltage> oo-dragon: I'm about to enter a starcraft game but if we miss each other also try the edubuntu-users mailing list
<oo-dragon> yea, so when they login to the LTSP client machines, they auto mount their windows home dir's to somewhere in their home.  like ~/Documents or something
<oo-dragon> Starcraft 1 or 2? :)
#edubuntu 2014-01-13
<Hecarus> hello, can anyone help me with tripwire?
<Hecarus> hello, can anyone help me with tripwire?
#edubuntu 2014-01-14
<nzcloud> Howdy...I have been given 20 X HP thin clinets 5300 and have heard that Edubuntu would be the way to go...any vids or posts on how to install our school would be really appriciate it. thanks in advance
<highvoltage> nz<tab>
<[omicron]> hi guys! I'm having some problems with edubuntu running in LTSP environment when i'm trying to automount some USB devices like a handycam (masstorage) or a HDD... I can see in syslog how the system detects the device (sdxy) but in the client (desktop) I can't see the device "mounted", but if I connect a USB pendrive it works fine.
<[omicron]> could somebody show me the way please? :)
<cjaxon> Ok, so my gf is a teacher. With a lot of enthusiasm I convinced her to let me take her old,unused pc with WinXP and install edubuntu for use in her classroom.
<cjaxon> It's old, but has 1GHz processor and 1GB ram.
<cjaxon> Sorry, make that 2GHz and 1GB.
<cjaxon> Minimum requirements, if I'm not mistaken is 1GHz and 512MB.
<cjaxon> I made a bootable USB with 12.04 edubuntu and showed her the "live cd" on her laptop. No problem.
<cjaxon> When I wanted to install it on said PC last night, I ended up with egg on my face after going on about Linux this and Linux that.
<cjaxon> It reaches the screen with options to install, preview without installing, running mem test, etc.
<cjaxon> I selected "Install" and after a few seconds a screen with "Edubuntu" and 4 dots under it appears.
<cjaxon> After a few minutes, a greyish screen with a mouse pointer in the middle is reached.
<cjaxon> At this point, the screen will flash this grey screen and go black again.
<cjaxon> This just goes on ad infinitum.
<cjaxon> Any ideas?
<cjaxon> Oh, trying to run without installing shows the same symptoms.
<ogra_> most likely it is your graphics card that can not cope ...
<ogra_> try something more lightweight like xubuntu or lubuntu and see if they work instead
<ogra_> (ubuntu, edubuntu and ubuntu-gnome all require fully working 3D support for the desktop)
<highvoltage> hey cjaxon. do you know which display chip it has?
<cjaxon> hmmm... I'll have to check. Just popping out quickly. BRB
<cjaxon> Would I then, theoretically, be able to use xubuntu or lubuntu and get the edubuntu add-ons?
<cjaxon> Otherwise it defeats the purpose of the whole educational thing... Unless I can get an old graphics card somewhere. I have a feeling it might have an AGP slot.
<highvoltage> cjaxon: ah, that's a pity. some of the real old graphics cards just aren't well supported anymore
<highvoltage> cjaxon: worth checking if it has an onboard display adaptor that might have better graphics support on linux
<cjaxon> I know for a fact it is onboard graphics.
<cjaxon> Suspected the graphics and had a look at the back. Only one VGA connector
<cjaxon> Will a GEFORCE FX 5200 be supported?
<highvoltage> seems like nvidia removed a lot of driver support for their card
<highvoltage> *cards
<highvoltage> then re-added it again
<highvoltage> the first answer on http://askubuntu.com/questions/153915/how-to-install-drivers-for-nvidia-geforce-fx-5200-on-precise suggests that installing the proprietary nvidia driver will get it working
<cjaxon> Probably due to an angry mob with pitchforks and torches.
<cjaxon> Things is, I don't get as far as even starting the installation.
<cjaxon> The installation freezes at the stage directly after selecting "Install"
<ogra_> cjaxon, didnt you say the live session worked ?
<ogra_> there is an install icon on the live desktop too
<cjaxon> No, either option has the same problem.
<ogra_> ?
<ogra_> the GUIinstaller simply starts in a window on the live desktop
<cjaxon> Do you mean from Windows?
<ogra_> no
<ogra_> <cjaxon> I made a bootable USB with 12.04 edubuntu and showed her the "live cd" on her laptop. No problem.
<cjaxon> Oh. I understand the confusion. I just showed it to her on her laptop before attempting to install it on the old PC.
<ogra_> in that mode there is an "install" icon ... if you click it, it will start the installed as an app window
<ogra_> ah, other device
<ogra_> ok
<cjaxon> But on the old PC, I restart the PC and it boots from USB
<cjaxon> selecting either option from the boot time menu has the same result
<ogra_> right, thats the graphics driver ...
<cjaxon> Will adding a AGP card fix the problem?
<ogra_> if it has a supported chipset it will, yes
<cjaxon> NVidia GeForce FX 5200
<cjaxon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsVideoCardsNvidia
<cjaxon> On that page, the 5200 is listed as being auto-detected and has 2D and 2D.
<cjaxon> Just needs nvidia-glx, but I assume this I can install post OS installation?
<ogra_> so try it then
<cjaxon> There's a local PC shop that has one! Thing must have an inch of dust on it, but I can get it for cheap, brand new.
<cjaxon> So, small gamble, but such is life.
<ogra_> ask if you can give it back, try it ... return it if it does not work
<cjaxon> Maybe he has some DDR RAM for me also. :P
<cjaxon> Thanks guys, I'll give it a try and report back.
#edubuntu 2014-01-15
<Lucan> Not spamming, I typed this from #ubuntu for anyone who is idling here and can help me with the problems.
<Lucan> .:22:07:44:. <Lucan> Hi everyone
<Lucan> .:22:08:06:. <Lucan> I have some concerns for obtaining the particular drivers for Edubuntu.
<Lucan> .:22:08:13:. <Lucan> I assumes it is same as Ubuntu.
<Lucan> .:22:08:35:. <Lucan> Does anyone had experiences with ATI HD4670 AGP ?
<mangled> Hey madlen, the webpage I said was http://www.intelligentrd.com
<mangled> oops! wrong channel
<mangled> sorry
#edubuntu 2014-01-16
<mhall119> highvoltage: have you heard of kids having problems with Unity?  I switched mine from the Qimo/Xfce setup to Unity a couple years ago and they're doing fine on it
<mhall119> still on 12.04 though, so they don't have all the new smart scopes
<highvoltage> mhall119: yeah, finding apps / typing app names is hard for little kids
<highvoltage> mhall119: or when there isn't an adult around to help out the second time they try to find an app. the old style menus seem slightly better for that
<ogra_> mhall119, LTSP has probs with unity ... so you have to have an alternate desktop that doesnt use composite all over the place anyway
<mhall119> mine usually search by keyword ("math", "science", etc), maybe there's some work we can do adding more/better keywords to the .desktop files of those
<highvoltage> mhall119: yeah that's not very intuitive either
<ogra_> (edubuntu will also not be able to switch to Mir most likely due to that)
<mhall119> ogra_: hmmmm, is that something that can be fixed in LTSP, or is it just the nature of the two (LTSP and compositing) that they won't work together?
<ogra_> mhall119, it is the nature of networks ... you can have composite across networked desktops but that will be unusable slow
<highvoltage> I think direct rendering also broke in compiz (or something like that)
<stgraber> mhall119: I also suspect your kids are older than some of our users and they also happen to be native english speakers. I doubt dash keyword search works that well if you speak say Indian
<ogra_> and Mir does not even have a concept of network forwarding at all
<ogra_> not even in the planning
<mhall119> stgraber: 8 and 9 years old,but yes on being native English speakers
<highvoltage> well, typing things into the dash even implies that a user knows that they can do that
<mhall119> stgraber: keywords can be translated though, IIRC, so I can get dpm to help me promote that among the translations community
<highvoltage> even though it says "type to search..." etc, most people who see it for the first time doesn't realise that they can or what to search for
<highvoltage> so they end up staring at the dash wondering what to do
<mhall119> ogra_: yeah, LTSP is X11-centric right?
<highvoltage> if there's someone around to help them, it usually works out. but many of our users are people installing it in isolation and have to figure things out by themselves
<ogra_> mhall119, well, it relies on the display protocol being able to do network forwarding
<highvoltage> well LTSP 6 is moving to support primarilly fat clients. so a desktop environment running on Mir should be fine.
<ogra_> mhall119, which is clearly been denied in the Mir planning
<highvoltage> (you just won't be able to run remoteapps)
<mhall119> highvoltage: ok
<ogra_> ah, not aware of the recent ltsp plans
<mhall119> ogra_: it won't be part of Mir, no
<mhall119> but like Wayland, could potentially be built on top
<mhall119> is there a roadmap/work items for Edubuntu 14.04?
<mhall119> also (he asks selfishly) is there a script for building the ISOs from scratch?
<highvoltage> mhall119: basically the two areas mentioned in the cc catchup (some flashback bugs and edubuntu server)
<mhall119> ok
#edubuntu 2014-01-19
<stgraber> highvoltage: got time for an alpha-2?
<highvoltage> stgraber: yeah I think that's a good idea
<highvoltage> I did some testing yesterday with the edubuntu-server scripts, they seem to need some attention
<highvoltage> well, cdoing a server-deploy failed, but it's on an image from a few weeks ago that I've just kept upgrading. I should probably do a new installation
<stgraber> yeah, they need some attention for sure
<stgraber> highvoltage: marked us as participating for a2 on the wiki
<highvoltage> cool
<stgraber> highvoltage: I'll be around this week, currently at home, flying to London on Saturday, so I should be able to help a bit and fix anything horribly broken
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok nice. by chance I kicked off an iso sync a few minutes before you just poked me :)
#edubuntu 2016-01-21
<Stepnjump> Hi guys I have a problem
<Stepnjump> Not many people here I wonder if someone could help out
#edubuntu 2017-01-20
-queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: cloud-init (xenial-proposed/main) [0.7.8-49-g9e904bb-0ubuntu1~16.04.4 => 0.7.9-0ubuntu1~16.04.1] (edubuntu, ubuntu-cloud, ubuntu-server)
#edubuntu 2019-01-18
<qwebirc64415> Hello!
#edubuntu 2020-01-13
<ravi> hi
<ravi> how to download edubuntu? the link is not working which is given in the website
#edubuntu 2020-01-15
-queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: cloud-init (eoan-proposed/main) [19.3-41-gc4735dd3-0ubuntu1~19.10.1 => 19.4-33-gbb4131a2-0ubuntu1~19.10.1] (core, edubuntu, ubuntu-cloud)
-queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: cloud-init (bionic-proposed/main) [19.3-41-gc4735dd3-0ubuntu1~18.04.1 => 19.4-33-gbb4131a2-0ubuntu1~18.04.1] (edubuntu, ubuntu-cloud, ubuntu-server)
-queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: cloud-init (xenial-proposed/main) [19.3-41-gc4735dd3-0ubuntu1~16.04.1 => 19.4-33-gbb4131a2-0ubuntu1~16.04.1] (edubuntu, ubuntu-cloud, ubuntu-server)
#edubuntu 2020-01-18
<Boon> Hi, I want to download Edubuntu, but all the links are gone...
