#ubuntu-artwork 2006-05-01
<rob> hi guys, anyone around?
<rob> no?
<AviF> hello
<rob> dang
<klepas> moin
<rob> hi klepas 
<rob> did mdke get in contact with you guys regarding the book covers?
<klepas> no
<klepas> should he have?
<rob> I think he might have emailed your mailing list?
<klepas> oh
<klepas> i haven't had access to the mailing lists for about 8 days
<klepas> i'm away from home and away from that email address I use for that account
<rob> oh, well I just posted something similar on http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=166133
<klepas> chance you have the mailing list archives link incase mdke wrote something on that>
<rob> I'll take a look
<klepas> btw
<klepas> very cool
<klepas> i'd be happy to do those covers
<rob> one of our guys has been playing around and produced something ok, but we would really like to let the art team have a say
<klepas> sure
<klepas> chance i could have a look at the work so far?
<rob> yes, hold on
<klepas> if there is previous work i'd prefer to incorporate it/work from that in respect to the author
<rob> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png
<klepas> chances are whoever did is on the right track already
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> interesting concept
<klepas> i can work from that idea
<klepas> with the fading logo
<rob> cool :)
<klepas> what is your deadline?
<klepas> btw
<klepas> let's move over to ubuntu-doc for this
<rob> ok
<Madpilot> ah, there is an -artwork channel...
<klepas> there sure is
<klepas> whether it is active or not is an entirely different paradox...
<klepas> ;)
<klepas> Madpilot: how can we help you?
<klepas> be back later today
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-05-02
<klepas> moin
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-05-03
<{alejandro}> hey a query
<klepas> moin
<lapo> hi
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-05-04
<ertz> hello ubuntu people :)
<ertz> heh... two of my favorite icon designers are here... too bad there's not much activity today :P
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-05-05
<ertz> hello here
<klepas> 'ello
<ertz> klepas: how's it going? :)
<klepas> it be going good
<klepas> and yourself?
<ertz> i'm doing fine :) ... doing lots of changes in an icon set :)
<klepas> tango or tangerine?
<klepas> :)
<ertz> none :) one of my own
<ertz> Dropline Neu
<ertz> I wouldn't like to spoil Tango nor tangerine :P hehe
<klepas> ertz: oh, sorry.
<klepas> wasn't aware you're the author of that :)
<ertz> klepas: hehe... no problem :)
<ertz> I'm no great icon designer anyway :p
<klepas> cheers to you :)
<klepas> you definitely have a lot of skills :)
<ertz> well, thanks :)
<ertz> I'm still learning ... basic stuff, hehe...
<ertz> mostly thanks to Tango Project's guidelines... 
<klepas> ertz: :o)
<ertz> klepas: yes? :)
<klepas> oh, i mean i agree
<klepas> tango is great
<ertz> ahh
<ertz> hhehe...
<ertz> yeah, it's awesome... best icon set ever
<ertz> I bet jimmac heard the same thing a millon times :P
<ertz> hmmm... never thought it would be so time consuming to resize icons... 
<ertz> anyone knows any method to resize SVGs while keeping vectors aligned to a pixel grid?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-05-06
<ertz> hello...
<andreasn> hey
<ertz> andreasn: how goes it?
<andreasn> fixing bugs in tangerine
<ertz> ehh... bugs like in software? or aligning vectors to a pixel grid and stuff like that?
<andreasn> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/tangerine-icon-theme/+bugs
<andreasn> all kinds of stuff
<andreasn> what are you up to then?
<ertz> well... I actually joined this channel to make socials :) I'm currently working in Dropline Neu icon set... making a huge update (kind of a major re design) :)
<ertz> I like hearing about ubuntu's art development :)
<andreasn> dropline neu? is there a url where I can see it+
<andreasn> ?
<ertz> sure, at my site: http://www.silvestre.com.ar/
<ertz> use this one to filter only icons: http://www.silvestre.com.ar/?cat=2
<ertz> as you can see I've been quite inspired by Tango lately :P
<andreasn> wow, cool stuff
* andreasn bookmarks
<ertz> :) thanks andreasn 
<andreasn> whups, time for bed
<andreasn> come and say hi in #tango some day
<ertz> nite andreasn :)
<andreasn> night
<ertz> sure thing :)
<ertz> hey AndyFitz :)
<AndyFitz> heya ertz
<ertz> how's it going?
<AndyFitz> great,   you hear rsvg now supports external styles and relative linked !entities ?
<ertz> nope, I haven't... I've been quite disconnected from mailing lists and stuff like that :)
<ertz> I'm a bad icon "developer" :p
<AndyFitz> lol its okay,  only recent news and only exciting to geeks who have wanted it for years now
<AndyFitz> in the past year,  rsvg has changed its meaning from 'ruthless scalable vector graphics  .  to  'rocking SVG'
<ertz> hehe... I guess it is exciting... problem is I don't even know what those features are... :\
* ertz is a bad, bad icon developer :P
<AndyFitz> means we can do stuff like tis http://andy.brisgeek.com/files/screen.png  at different sizes and different styles  all from the one svg illustration
<AndyFitz> http://andy.brisgeek.com/files/duck.png  and so on ...
<ertz> wow... that sure is something to be excited about... :D
<ertz> i'm getting excited myself :P
<AndyFitz> id only just figured out I could get that functionality happening with entities , but  they had to have fixed paths,  meaing making different sized 1px outline icons was an issue 
<AndyFitz> now we can do it all
<AndyFitz> master gradient definitions, filters and cc data is held in external files and linked in on execution of the svg ;-)
<AndyFitz>  as well as those external stylesheets 
<AndyFitz> http://andy.brisgeek.com/files/css.css  = tango in css
<ertz> that's just awesome :)
<ertz> I'll have to redisign everything!
<ertz> ahaha
<ertz> well... I have to go now... but will certainly be back later :)
<AndyFitz> no worries mate.  have a good time
<ertz> thanks... :)
<ertz> you too
<ertz> back again :p
<ertz> AndyFitz: you seem to be the right one to ask... do you know of a way to resize a SVG up to 128x128? maybe using ImageMagick or something?
<AndyFitz> lol you can't do it with imagemagick,  
<AndyFitz> you can export the svg as a png from inkscape at 128x128  or within inkscape you can change the document size, group all shapes and apply a transform matrix
<ertz> hehe... i thought it could handle some SVG stuff :P
<ertz> yeah, I supposed I was going to have to do it manually... I was hoping to write some script to save my life or something :P
<AndyFitz> you can with scripts 
<ertz> rsvg -w 128 -h 128 ?
<AndyFitz> its tricky for me  but very possile with a perl script
<ertz> or something like that?
<AndyFitz> not rsvg,  that won't give you an svg file 
<AndyFitz> it will display it at that for you tho
<ertz> nono... actually I want the PNG only :p
<AndyFitz> oh then rsvg or inkscape can do that easy peast
<AndyFitz> easy as anything
<ertz> i was thinking about first resizing the SVG...
<ertz> but i think rsvg can do the job then :)
<ertz> I usually do all this stuff manually... but i've been getting lazy these days
<AndyFitz> inkscape --export-png=filename.png --export-width=128 --export-height=128
<AndyFitz> oh wait 
<ertz> and where should I enter the input file?
<AndyFitz> you need --file=filename.svg
<ertz> ahhh
<ertz> :D
<ertz> thanks a lot Andy :)
<ertz> you've been like an open book for me today :D
<AndyFitz>  -z to make sure you don't get a gui tho I don't think you need it if issuing from cli
<ertz> is good to have people like you arround :p
<ertz> :D rsvg -h 128 -w 128 <file>.svg <file>.png also works like a charm
<AndyFitz> cool
<AndyFitz> rsvg is a great :)  dom is a champ...
<AndyFitz> batik is the best but only runs on non free java
<AndyFitz> and inkscape is the best illustration program of all time naturally ;-)
<ertz> I have to agree with that :)
<ertz> at least is the best for icons :)
<ertz> oh... I've been wondering some time ago... what ever happened with Etiquette? did you released something not so long ago?
<ertz> maybe I've been looking in the wrong place...
<AndyFitz> some stuff got release a while ago.  but I'm as unorganised as anything.   now that my long awaited external styles have been implemented you can expect something soon ( like a month or two )
<AndyFitz> one month I reckon but two incase I'm dodgy like always 
<AndyFitz> anyway its alll just play ;-)
<AndyFitz> I gotta rock off
<ertz> good to hear that :) ...
<ertz> Ok :)
<AndyFitz> buddah fesitval all this week finishing next weekend :)
<ertz> is that some sort of rave?
<AndyFitz> no its  buddah's birthday 
<AndyFitz> I think
<AndyFitz> I'm going down to see what all the fuss is about ;-)
<ertz> hehe... Ok, have fun 
<AndyFitz> ciao
<Lormor> hi, I just joined ... Can someone explain me what you have to do when you joined artwork ?
<ertz> hello, 
<andreasn> hi ertz
<ertz> hi andreasn :) how goes it?
<andreasn> did a disk-admin icon today, hope to have the whole System > Administration in the right style soon
<ertz> nice :)
<andreasn> have you done any nice app-icons in tango-style?
<andreasn> would be nice to have them in tangerine
<andreasn> come join the fun in #tango btw
<ertz> well, "Yasis" is kinda like tango... I would only need to use Tango's color pallete to adapt some of them :)
<andreasn> didn't you do another theme aswell?
<ertz> I made: Dropline Neu, Dropline Nuovo, Yasis and Gion...
<andreasn> Gion is nice
<ertz> I also did an Etiquette mod... :) but that's mostly Andy's work
<ertz> Thanks :)
<ertz> Gion is the most polished I'd say.....
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-05-07
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-30
<yharrow> troy_s: yeah its current
<yharrow> hey lap
<yharrow> troy_s: I built it yesterday
<troy_s> good stuffs
<yharrow> troy_s: took me 20 mins to build
<troy_s> yharrow: THats your initial
<troy_s> yharrow: svn up
<troy_s> yharrow: make
<troy_s> will take much less
<troy_s> from now on
<yharrow> 5 mins?
<troy_s> well it will only compile object files that have changed now
<troy_s> where you ended up compiling EVERYTHING when you do it the first time
<yharrow> oh cool
<troy_s> yharrow: Try it...
<troy_s> yharrow: enter into the SVN dir
<troy_s> type:
<troy_s> yharrow: svn up
<troy_s> yharrow: make
<troy_s> yharrow: sudo make install
<yharrow> ok
<yharrow>  I got: At revision 14900.
<troy_s> so no updates
<troy_s> so if you ran a make
<troy_s> you can see -- it won't 'remake'
<troy_s> it just looks for new stuff and compiles it, then compiles the master binary
<troy_s> very quick
<troy_s> generally
<yharrow> its just saying "Nothing to be done for all"
<yharrow> troy_s: yeah was very queick
<yharrow> troy I enabled color management as well
<troy_s> yharrow: Ditto
<troy_s> yharrow: LCMS is awsome
<troy_s> you can also try lprof
<yharrow> yeah!
<troy_s> which is a gui fo it.
<yharrow> whats that?
<troy_s> and works great
<yharrow> lprof?
<troy_s> sudo aptitude install lprof
<troy_s> check it out.
<yharrow> looks like a qt3 app
<troy_s> yharrow: It is very good.  If you have a registered profile you can use predefined estimates to get colour management in place
<troy_s> even better
<troy_s> you can use an it8 target
<troy_s> to generate profiles for your local cameras / scanners /etc
<troy_s> (although I am always of the mind that you MUST test the workflow by validating the results with sources and references)
<yharrow> troy_s: ok its installed...
<yharrow> troy_s: gonna check it out now
<yharrow> troy_s: it looks complicated
<troy_s> yharrow: Color management is complicated on many levels
<troy_s> ultimately, all it really assures is that you can theoretically have your work look right on an output
<troy_s> most directors of photography
<yharrow> troy_s: I am unsure of what color management really is.
<troy_s> yharrow: I'll explain in a bit... tad busy just for a few seconds.
<yharrow> ok talk to you in a few
<troy_s> yharrow: Sorry -- shitey time coordination on my end.
<yharrow> troy_s:  oh ok , I understand
<jrib> Hello, does anyone know of an ascii ubuntu logo?
<psymon101> not off the top of my head
<psymon101> yet you can get bitmap to acsii converters
<psymon101> http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl1_pbmtoascii.htm
<jrib> psymon101: thanks
<psymon101> that should do the trick
<psymon101> no problem
<jrib> I found http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=403558 which includes one as well
<psymon101> coolio...
<psymon101> it should be pretty accurate
<psymon101> since the logo isnt exactly complex
<psymon101> What really would be cool is an app which scales ascii art :)
<psymon101> Just doing to browsing on Deviant art... this chaps art is exceptional.. http://videa.deviantart.com/gallery/
<jrib> that is impressive, and I haven't even clicked on one to look closer yet
<psymon101> lol
<psymon101> just trying to decide which one is going to be on my background:) I like the one with the girl looking at a hand mirror.. but I am sure I would get frowns from my clients if I opened my laptop up to that:)
<yharrow> his stuff looks intensely  3d
<yharrow> Im going to assume that it was done in raster
<yharrow> which makes it all that muchmore of a feat
<yharrow> it looks way to detailed to be either 3d or svg
<yharrow> but It could be svg
<troy_s> that's all 3d
<troy_s> and a little of the 2d mixed media stuff.
<Daviey> Hi, our loco is considering national press advertising
<Daviey> Is there anybody interested in helping with the artwork
<Daviey> ?
<Madpilot> Daviey, best bet is to mail the artwork team's mailing list - far busier than this channel
<Daviey> Madpilot, thanks
<yharrow> hi kwwii
<yharrow> hey lapo
<kwwii> howdy
<lapo> yo guys
<yharrow> kwwii: been busy this past week?
<yharrow> i wonder if they had anything in open week related to art
<elkbuntu> hey kwwii. people are asking for cd artwork, anywhere to point them?
* kwwii is on vacation this week :-)
<kwwii> elkbuntu: I do not have acces to the right page...I'll see that it goes up next week
<elkbuntu> kwwii, any chance you could email the stuff to me? that way i can pass it on as requested?
<kwwii> elkbuntu: it is several hundred MB and I still have to sort it out
<elkbuntu> kwwii, ah ok. fair enough
<kwwii> I can point you to my site where I put up two images for ubuntu (the Cd and the wallet) if you'd like to do it though
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/Ubu_704_PC.pdf
<kwwii> and Ubu_CD_704.eps
<elkbuntu> yeah, that's great. it's what most are looking for. ta
<kwwii> I think that the eps is rendered to a pic though, so there are no paths in it
<kwwii> I've all the pics used to make those pics too, but I'll have to sort them out, etc
<kwwii> I also have the other derivs stuff too, but again, that will be done sometime next week
<elkbuntu> yep. i'll make sure to harrass you next week :
<troy_s> kwwii: Ugh
<kwwii> troy_s: ?
<troy_s> kwwii: That packaging.
<troy_s> kwwii: Well it is at least consistent in the same way that Windows has the apparent gaudy consistency going for it.  :)
<kwwii> troy_s: well, I didn't make that stuff this time around
<troy_s> kwwii: I know
<troy_s> kwwii: I can tell
<kwwii> we've a new marketing-manager, perhaps that will change
<troy_s> kwwii: It has the trademark 'cheeseball' feeling that has been going for a good 6 releases
<troy_s> kwwii: Well that's positive.  Who is it?
<kwwii> can't remeber his name...just got a mail about it the other day
<kwwii> I haven't read my emails in a few days and they are backing up so I only skim them
<elkbuntu> some of the models in the photo are the same as old wallet photos
<troy_s> elkbuntu: It goes beyond that.
<elkbuntu> troy_s,  i only glanced ;)
<troy_s> elkbuntu: It appears to capitalize on the rather cliched cheeseball nature that shuttlebot clings to.
<troy_s> (not to mention that the photo is so Sears wallet photo)
<troy_s> (as you said lol)
<troy_s> it is actually funny
<troy_s> in a sick dark accident sort of way
<troy_s> I heard about the new marketing campaigns:
<troy_s> Ubuntu - Linux for People Who Like Cheese.
<nysosym> hmm what are u talking about?
<troy_s> nysosym: You probably don't want to know.
<nysosym> why not?
* kwwii is back to vacation...see you later
<nysosym> what looks like cheese in ubuntu?
<troy_s> lol
<elkbuntu> desktop effects code :
* elkbuntu ducks
<nysosym> hehe, don't get me wrong but why do u kidding me?
<troy_s> elkbuntu: Amen sister.
<troy_s> nysosym: Scroll back
<troy_s> nysosym: http://sinecera.de/Ubu_704_PC.pdf
<troy_s> More of the same shitey poorly directed and poorly communicated design.
<elkbuntu> troy_s, at least kwwii has a full release cycle to weave his magic this time
<troy_s> elkbuntu: Depends on magic I suppose.
<troy_s> elkbuntu: The problem is systemic however.
<elkbuntu> troy_s, 'better than that'
<elkbuntu> yeah, i know, but we need to have hope
<troy_s> elkbuntu: I don't know.  I think the best hope is from the community getting vocal -- by community I mean community at large.
<troy_s> elkbuntu: Notice how much press there was about Ubuntu's look for Feisty?
<troy_s> zero
<troy_s> elkbuntu: At the very least, offer work that offers some visceral emotional response -- love or hate or _something_.
<elkbuntu> he had horrifically limited time, since he only started in january
<troy_s> elkbuntu: I don't think the time is an issue.
<troy_s> elkbuntu: In terms of a polish it would be... again, it is symptomatic of a company that doesn't place value on art and design.
<troy_s> elkbuntu: The reason I wouldn't cite time is because you could probably draw comparisons to the other K thing.
<jrib> /wc/wc
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : "Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork. 7.04, the latest and greatest, is out now, download it now at a mirror near you!" -- http://www.design-emotion.com/2006/04/30/getting-emotional-with-paul-bennett/
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  http://www.design-emotion.com/2006/04/30/getting-emotional-with-paul-bennett/
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-05-01
<MindUser39294> Free phone calls all around the world - http://callfree.point-serv.com/en/
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-05-02
<nothlit> Hey-- @ any of you guys who haven't seen the mailing list in the last few days https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/CommunityTheme
<BHSPitMonkey> hey nothlit
<troy_s> nothlit: So yes... perhaps abandoning the Gibbon inspiration is a key bit of progress?
<troy_s> nothlit: What would work as a nice embodiment for the release in terms of a simple singular term?
<nothlit> most single words are overdone and cliched though
<troy_s> Well then let's avoid those too.
<nothlit> BHSPitMonkey: hey
<troy_s> I think avoiding the cliches is pretty important (despite the fact that Ubuntu's most cliched motifs have yet to be fully enunciated to the mainstream audience in a successful manner)
<nothlit> In terms of words that would go with the color scheme I'm imagining now? calm and productive
<nothlit> if you go with release name, warm and playful (if you're really gutsy--'punchy')
<troy_s> nothlit: Try the reverse -- work on a communication goal relative to your audience
<troy_s> nothlit: And have a look for palettes that work towards achieving that.
<troy_s> nothlit: Trying to use a palette and reverse engineering communication is pretty tricky.
<troy_s> nothlit: For example, one of my favorite palettes of all time was Dirk Uhlenbrock's
<troy_s> nothlit: Sorry it was David Lincoln's palette..
<troy_s> nothlit: It is an awsome collection of 11 colors
<troy_s> nothlit: Completely taken from a study of photographs of accident victims and cadavers.
<troy_s> "Deadly Color"
<troy_s> Trauma Coral:  252.116.72
<troy_s> Putre-Taupe:  130.107.65
<troy_s> Black:  0.0.0
<troy_s> Livor Lavender 178.124.174
<troy_s> Adipic Gold 246.151.50
<troy_s> Livor Verdigris:  65.91.54
<troy_s> Livor Gray:  107.122.109
<troy_s> Trauma Red:  225.32.7
<troy_s> Cadaver Yellow:  238.207.114
<troy_s> Cavity Maroon:  82.16.12
<troy_s> Viscera Cyan:  77.170.172
<troy_s> TC:  The color of skin surrounding a stab wound.
<troy_s> PT:  Mushroomy color of skin an tissues in advanced putrefaction.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey:  Color of total and utter putrefaction of human tissues.
<troy_s> LL:  Color of very early putrefaction seen one to two days after death.
<nothlit> how gruesome
<troy_s> AG:  Color of human fat immediately under the skin.
<troy_s> LV:  Gray Green of liveor mortis.
<BHSPitMonkey> was that an insult?
<troy_s> LG:  Blue gray of earlies livor mortis, occuring before lior verdigris.
<troy_s> Trae:  The color of fresh oxygenated blood.
<troy_s> CY:  Human skin after the blood has left it.
<troy_s> CM:  The color of unoxygenated blood and tissue deep within the body cavity.
<troy_s> VC:  The amazing color of healthy human lungs and intestines.
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> NOW THAT'S A COMMUNICATIVE PALETTE
<troy_s> lol
<nothlit> BHSPitMonkey: he meant Black, its just the autocompletion prolly
<BHSPitMonkey> (I know)
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> sorry BHSPitMonkey I hit tab
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> apologies!
<troy_s> LOL.
<troy_s> Anyways, it shows you two things:
<BHSPitMonkey> I've never been described so vividly and yet so harshly before.
<troy_s> 1) That palette is a critical element of design.
<troy_s> 2) That a _real_ palette isn't a smattering of all hues across a given value set.
<troy_s> 3) That a palette should be SELECTIVE in colour, and work towards the ultimate communication goal (at the given audience)
<troy_s> and perhaps most importantly, all elements that Ubuntu's clueless design pattern fails to grasp or even begin to understand.
<darkmatter> clueless is a wee bit of an understatement
<troy_s> darkmatter: Amen
<troy_s> Throw k in there too.
<darkmatter> :)
<troy_s> darkmatter:  I sincerely hope Diana's work kicks the crap out of the scene and garners much deserved attention.
<darkmatter> troy_s, thats the fedora stuff, correct?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Yes.  Diana Fong MFA
<troy_s> darkmatter: A true process and a true result.
<darkmatter> yes... her work is gorgeous
<troy_s> She has been pushing more and more
<troy_s> and despite being bullied by several longstanding 'factions', her work is simply awsome.
<troy_s> I am pretty certain that certain factions of the community don't want to be displaced by folks like her.
<darkmatter> indeed it is. I dl'd the redhat artwork just so I could get mypaws on the flying high art
<troy_s> Absolutely.
<troy_s> darkmatter: On a side note, you watching the digg drama?
<troy_s> darkmatter: It is awsome.
<darkmatter> yeah.. on and off
<troy_s> darkmatter: It is _really_ amazing right now
<troy_s> darkmatter: Watching the burning of a billion dollar empire in about 60 minutes.
<troy_s> crazy
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: Here is some very well communicated design:
<troy_s> http://dynamic.media.adrevolver.com/adrevolver/banner/57719.gif
<troy_s> Can you spot an audience?
<troy_s> lol
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: If you are interested
<troy_s> www.asicsdesigncompetition.com
<darkmatter> looking
<darkmatter> hmm.. interesting
<darkmatter> I may just enter in that
<BHSPitMonkey> I almost thought that was an ASCII Design Competition
<BHSPitMonkey> at first url glance
<BHSPitMonkey> hmm, I can't pull up digg.com
<BHSPitMonkey> is Digg finally experiencing the Digg effect?
<BHSPitMonkey> whaha.
<darkmatter> yup... they're just getting slammed with hex code
<BHSPitMonkey> yeah
<BHSPitMonkey> I got their maintenance page
<BHSPitMonkey> little digg person with a shovel next to a Debian server XD
<darkmatter> lol
<lapo> hi
<lapo> do you know how to switch openoffice styles?
<darkmatter> lapo,  Tools, Options > View
<darkmatter> its under user interface
<darkmatter> "icon size and style"
<lapo> darkmatter: thanks
<darkmatter> np
<darkmatter> http://images.derstandard.at/20070401/worldclock.gif <--- you guys see this yet
<lapo> nice
<lapo> could be improved, but nice
<andreasn> cool, I totally need something like that
<darkmatter> I'm just itching for the sp1 release.. I intend to hack every single goody to run on ubuntu :D
<andreasn> ah, it's a sled-thing..
<troy_s> You don't get it... You are all dead.  It was the tuna casserole...
<darkmatter> speak for yourself.. I hate tuna
<darkmatter> :P
<nothlit> bah... that site requires flash
<troy_s> DEBBIE: Can I ask you a question?
<troy_s> GRIM REAPER: What?
<troy_s> DEBBIE: How can we all have died at the same time?
<troy_s> [silence] 
<troy_s> GRIM REAPER: The salmon mousse.
<troy_s> GEOFFREY: Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?
<troy_s> ANGELA: I'm most dreadfully embarrassed.
<troy_s> nothlit: Worth checking out though.
<nothlit> troy_s: you're designing a shoe?
<troy_s> yharrow: Today might be a good day to test that Inkboard.
<nothlit> don't use google talk servers--they strip unknown data
<troy_s> nothlit: Thanks
<lapo> troy_s: inkboard, interesting, do you know how the heck it works? :-)
<troy_s> lapo played with it in a limited capacity, working on some experiments for collaborating in the near future
<troy_s> i had it working quite well at one point, but htat was early going
<lapo> troy_s: have you got some link with intructions on how to use it?
<nothlit> you get a jabber account and add each other
<nothlit> then login to it @ inkscape, and share a session
<lapo> no particular requirements?
<troy_s> nothlit: We really need to have some painless wiki page for this.
<lapo> I can use mu normal account?
<troy_s> lapo: Just a jabber server that works with full data.
<troy_s> lapo: I'll try to set a session up with you
<troy_s> lapo as soon as i finish up with my ubuntustudio details.
<nothlit> troy_s: did you design the logo/gtk theme?
<lapo> http://open-collab.org/mod/dfwiki/view.php?id=336&page=Inkboarding&gid=0
<troy_s> lapo: Have you got a recent SVN compiled?
<troy_s> nothlit: For uS -- no.  I simply advised on various elements.  I was working on Fantastic Four 2 while all of that was going on.
<lapo> troy_s: nope, atm I'm using the stock feisty one
<troy_s> lapo:  wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HowToCompileInkscape
<lapo> troy_s: I know how to compile stuff quite well :-)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> what i was trying to hint is compile a current
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> lapo: It is pretty useless if we try to experiment with versions that are different
<lapo> yeah, got it, but I'll try with the current one first, just for the pleasure of filling some bugs :-)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> okie
<troy_s> give me a few.
<troy_s> what is your jabber accnt lapo ?
<lapo> wait I need to sort out a pair of things
<lapo> lemme check
* lapo 's memory is junk
<lapo> mine is lapo@jabber.linux.it
<yharrow> hey troy_s
<yharrow> ping troy_s
<troy_s> yharrow: Hello
<yharrow> hi
<yharrow> troy_s: hows it going
<troy_s> yharrow: Good you?
<troy_s> unfortnately i set out to try and get a mock done in gimp gap, but haven't progressed very far.
<yharrow>  troy_s  going pretty good.
<yharrow> whats gimp gap?
<troy_s> wow
<troy_s> its a pretty powerful little animation plugin for the gimp
<troy_s> dare i say _quite_ powerful
<troy_s> with chroma keying etc...
<troy_s> all sorts of goodies.
<yharrow> troy_s: I think I ought to check it out :D
<yharrow> sound like good fun
<troy_s> yeah... if you have an interest in animation it is pretty versatile really.
<yharrow> Ilove animation
<yharrow> I did my stint with blender too
<troy_s> i just started toying with it... it is far more versatile than i orginally thought.
<yharrow> troy_s: I heard that you wanted to test out inkboard earlier
<troy_s> yeah i was going to.
<troy_s> kind of got run under at this point
<yharrow> ok, we'll try it out some other time then
<nothlit> troy_s: gap for that gif animation banner?
<nothlit> yharrow: i can play, i have inkscape svn compiled a few hours ago :)
<troy_s> nothlit: GIMP Gap for the fluxbuntu usplash
<nothlit> to do what? i thought the animation was handled by those bits of code
<troy_s> nothlit: You need to have a viable animation before you can have any chance of implementing it in code.
<yharrow> nothlit: sweet
<yharrow> nothlit: can I use my google account for jabber?
<nothlit> yharrow: you can't use google servers
<troy_s> yharrow: Jabber is free -- just sign up
<yharrow> Ok ill do that
<troy_s> nothlit: We should all see if we can get -current running with Inkscape and provide them with a set of bug reports.
<yharrow> one sec
<nothlit> -current?
<yharrow> nothlit: which jabber server do you use?
<troy_s> nothlit: -current meaning the head of SVN
<troy_s> yharrow: jabber.org
<nothlit> i'm using most recent revision 14909
<troy_s> what is the svn command to reveal version?
<troy_s> nothlit: 14927 is most recent
<nothlit> hmm
<nothlit> of the whole folder--but not of the inkscape section itself http://inkscape.svn.sf.net/
<nothlit> look @ trunk http://inkscape.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/inkscape/inkscape/
<yharrow> nothlit: Im trying to register a name brb
<troy_s> nothlit: Weird it pulled files for me
<troy_s> strange.
<troy_s> probably unrelated
<nothlit> i use arch's versionpkg to handle # changes :)
<troy_s> ?
<troy_s> how so?
<nothlit> it does the checking and modifies my PKGBUILD
<nothlit> and wraps makepkg too
<troy_s> so nothlit
<troy_s> is it 5222 for jabber?
<nothlit> yeah thats the standard port
<troy_s> so we setup a chat session yes?
<nothlit> yeah
<nothlit> i think only some servers can handle group chats though
<troy_s> conference.jabber.org works fine
<troy_s> add the chat group inkboard-test
<yharrow> nothlit:  ok Im done
<troy_s> feck... i can't remember how to link up
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> yharrow: inkboard-test is the conference
<yharrow> troy_s: ok so what do I do exactly?
<troy_s> first you need to use gaim or wahtever to join the chat
<troy_s> text based
<yharrow> I need to connect to conference.jabber.org?
<yharrow> hmm
<troy_s> join a chat
<yharrow> ok browsing chats
<troy_s> the chat is inkboard-test
<troy_s> just put it in manually
<yharrow> password?
<yharrow> i didnt need to do it manually
<yharrow> I am using gajim
<yharrow> showed me list
<yharrow> who is aphorism?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-05-03
<troy_s> nothlit: what happened to you
<nothlit> inkscape disappeared again lol
<nothlit> i opened a chat with yharrow and shared the inkboard
<yharrow> nothlit: lets try this one more time
<nothlit> and inkscape died --but not instantly-- after a while
<nothlit> anyways i think you're supposed to do it through the buddy list
<troy_s> nothlit: What buddy list?  the one in inkboard?
<nothlit> yeah
<yharrow> nothlit: why do you keep disconnecting?
<troy_s> nothlit: You manage to get yours connected ok?
<troy_s> my build  is a crankin
<nothlit> yharrow: mostly to fiddle--but also because inkscape keeps dying lol
<yharrow> nothlit: thats weird. lets try on e more time
<yharrow> you were there for a seconmd
<yharrow> what happend
<troy_s> yharrow: Still compiling
<troy_s> yharrow: _still_ compiling :)
<yharrow> nothlit: use pedroXMPP as a resource
<yharrow> I mean pedroXmpp
<yharrow> sorry
<yharrow> troy_s: it took me 20 minutes to compile, so it should take you 10 to 15
<troy_s> yharrow: Done :)
<troy_s> yharrow: retrying
<troy_s> login: no second SASL challenge offered by server
<troy_s> not impressed.
<troy_s> nothlit / yharrow you REALLY need to learn GIMP gap... it is pretty impressive
<nothlit> hmm yeah i have tutorials in my bookmarks
<nothlit> its been installed for a while
* yharrow decides to insall gimp gap now
<troy_s> nothlit: It is NOT the worlds most well documented addition :)
<nothlit> yharrow: segfault again--i'm done lol
<yharrow> weird. I never get that
<yharrow> works all the time
<nothlit> hmm
<nothlit> thats because i initiated the sharing right away
<yharrow> nothlit: try restarting inkscape
<nothlit> and you never see it
<nothlit> but it causes the segfault
<nothlit> you just keep chatting :P
<yharrow> nothlit: dont try to share immediately
<yharrow> nothlit: I got the share the last time
<nothlit> i waited before
<nothlit> oh
<yharrow> nothlit: so I know it could work
<nothlit> did you get any content?
<nothlit> the problem is the windows are confusing
<yharrow> no cause, I close it after
<nothlit> the initiating window isn't the one i recieve chat in
<yharrow> nothlit: ok this time we will communicate through irc and well do it step by step
<nothlit> but which one is the one you're supposed to share the whiteboard to
<yharrow> Ill explain
<nothlit> btw i don't see the subscription aka buddy list going both ways in inkscape for some reason
<nothlit> yharrow: no
<nothlit> yharrow: as in
<nothlit> yharrow: when i double click on your name and send a message
<nothlit> your reply comes up in a <different> box
<nothlit> but both boxes work for sending messages
<yharrow> nothlit: thats cause I had gajim open
<nothlit> no
<yharrow> and i think it confused things
<nothlit> i looked @ the resource
<yharrow> hmm
<nothlit> and closed everything and reinitiated
<yharrow> nothlit: then we mustve both opened a window
<nothlit> ...
<nothlit> its a chat box
<yharrow> sorry bout that
<nothlit> anyways
<nothlit> it makes more sense to just share a vnc session
<yharrow> i am going to open it up and not touch anything
<nothlit> than to fiddle with all this
<yharrow> nothlit: vnc is less secure
<nothlit> eh
<nothlit> not over vpns/ssh
<nothlit> i have an nx server setup that can transport vnc over it as well
<yharrow> hmm. thats sweet :D
<yharrow> good stuff
<yharrow> wish I had something like that
<yharrow> nothlit:  the thing that irks me though is that it went through the first time . I actually got the share request from you
<yharrow> when you were using the other jabber id
<yharrow> your first one
<yharrow> the fluxbuntyu
<nothlit> yharrow: me and joejaxx got the share request <everytime> but we never saw anything and got segfaults
<nothlit> on talk.google.com and fluxbuntu.net
<yharrow> nothlit: so you think its a general bug?
<nothlit> i just think its not stable yet, as #inkscape suggested
<yharrow> nothlit: do you think its a protocol issue?
<yharrow> http://www.jabber.org/network/oldnetwork.shtml
<nothlit> dunno
<nothlit> i'm gonna figure out ejabberd and work off my two boxes
<nothlit> 93% is pretty good
<nothlit> prolly more than inkscape needs
<nothlit> i'd rather not try openfire (wildfire), blegh at java
<troy_s> nothlit: Did you get my jabber reply?
<nothlit> when/what was it?
<troy_s> nothlit: I don't know... your request was sitting there.
<nothlit> i jumped around a lot with clients/servers
<nothlit> oh the buddy request?
<nothlit> or the inkscape
<troy_s> it was a jabber buddy
<troy_s> req
<nothlit> i didn't notice it--but i shut off the fluxbuntu.net stuff a while ago
<troy_s> lo
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> okie...
<troy_s> anyways, i now know how to do the usplash in gimp gap to get it off to tonic
<troy_s> so mission 1 accomplished
<nothlit> troy_s: yharrow --ahh ok, i tested it on my own jabber server
<nothlit> regular nodes work fine
<nothlit> text is iffy
<nothlit> and transformations don't seem to go across
<troy_s> nothlit: So it is a protocol issue?!??!
<troy_s> nothlit: Open up your server to us!
<nothlit> lol
<BHSPitMonkey> is anyone here aware of any feisty cd label artwork that's out there?
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Yes.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: What do you want?
<BHSPitMonkey> seeking a cd label for 32bit Desktop feisty.
<troy_s> erm i think the cd's haven't changed in terms of labels (being that red blob with the white pill on the wiki)
<troy_s> only the art changes on the outside (although calling it art is a helluva stretch -- more like walmART)
<troy_s> tis fucking tacky to the extreme
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, have anything better? :P
<BHSPitMonkey> I guess I could wait for the new diy site to be up and functional...
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Actually you could probably whip something up relatively easy
<troy_s> that said, the actual cd labels are quite adequate
<troy_s> the 'art' on the packages is... walmART
<BHSPitMonkey> true, but I don't really feel like it, and I wouldn't really be satisfied :P
<BHSPitMonkey> I'm not making a package, but just the label.
<troy_s> get the one off the wiki
<troy_s> it will suffice
<BHSPitMonkey> I don't want to ever have to make a second feisty CD for myself :P
<BHSPitMonkey> I want this to be respectable
<nothlit> didn't kwwii put up a .pdf/.eps?
<nothlit> :) i found the teacup example svg http://twiki.softwarelivre.org/bin/view/InkscapeBrasil/ScreenShot3
<BHSPitMonkey> yeah
<BHSPitMonkey> it was on inkscape's homepage
<Madpilot> nothlit, f'ing amazing, that is. Makes my hacking about with Inkscape look like, um, hacking about... :)
<nothlit> BHSPitMonkey: i meant the svg itself
<BHSPitMonkey> ah.
<BHSPitMonkey> nothlit, well the dl just produces an error here
<nothlit> i got it on my end
<troy_s> nothlit: That teacup could be better all things considered
<troy_s> it really doesn't show off the power of Inkscape very well.
<lapo_> hi
<yharrow> hi
<nothlit> troy_s: well with shapes and blur-- you can do anything you want with inkscape, as long as your cpu can handle doing all that filter work
<troy_s> nothlit: Ping
<yharrow> hi troy_s
<troy_s> yharrow: Greets friend.
<troy_s> yharrow: Apparently nothlit got better results on a local jabber server
<yharrow> troy_s: yeah so I saw in the log :D
<yharrow> troy_s: he still said he had problems though
<yharrow> troy_s: something about only nodes working
<yharrow> and text mocking up
<yharrow> some speculated that it is a protocol error
<yharrow> which was my initial guess as well
<yharrow> I seriously look forward to using inkboard
<troy_s> yes... it seems that the server is doing different things and affecting it.
<yharrow> it would be really great
<troy_s> yharrow: Even if it is pure simple sketching, that is a helluva lot better than what we have to the best of my knowledge.
<yharrow> yeah
<yharrow> thats true
<yharrow> I could live with sketching
<nothlit> theres lots of online whiteboard apps though
<troy_s> yharrow: I just finished up the fluxbuntu usplash (which is pretty darn good in the end) so there will be a little more time for brainstorming etc.
<yharrow> and simple node manipulation
<troy_s> nothlit can you show me a few?
<troy_s> nothlit: It would GREATLY aid the community theme thinking
<yharrow> troy_s: do you think fluxbuntu will become recognized the way xubuntu or kubuntu has?
<nothlit> ahh kk
<nothlit> yharrow: doubtful, we are considered a fork, and do things to packages that wouldn't be put into the main repos
<troy_s> yharrow: I don't know or mind.   I just want it to clobber the fuck out of all of those in terms of design.
<troy_s> Which isn't exactly hard.
<troy_s> yharrow: Look at Kubuntu -- it is in at least as bad shape as bloody Ubuntu.
<yharrow> speed or functionality wise?
<troy_s> yharrow: Art and design.
<yharrow> ahh ok
<yharrow> troy_s: do you have screenshots of flux?
<yharrow> default design in KDE is a disaster
<yharrow> Ubuntu is slightly better
<troy_s> yharrow: Default art / design across the boards is ... ick.
<troy_s> yharrow: Ubuntu is pretty bloody sad.
* yharrow chokes every time he sees the kde dragon
<yharrow> :P
<yharrow> Konqi is his name I think
<nothlit> troy_s: this is the most famous one http://www.imaginationcubed.com/LaunchPage
<nothlit> i can't find the old ones i used
<yharrow> nothlit: lets do this. whats your eamil?
<yharrow> email*
<troy_s> yuck flash
<troy_s> any actual apps?
<nothlit> but a quick google turns up http://www.skrbl.com/ http://vyew.com/content/ http://vyew.com/content/
<nothlit> oh
<yharrow> troy_s: i can deal with flash when there is no viable alternatice
<nothlit> ehm... i dunno about linux apps
<yharrow> alternative*
<troy_s> yharrow: Possibly... pretty sure there are a few whiteboards.
<nothlit> nothing off the top of my head
* yharrow goes to apt-cache search
<yharrow> cant find anything
<troy_s> groupboard looks possible
<nothlit> troy_s: http://www.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~benes/tulka/ ?
<troy_s> nothlit: Well that looks promsing too
<yharrow> groupboard looks propietary
<nothlit> troy_s: http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=whiteboard&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
<yharrow> looks java based too
<nothlit> WOOT
<nothlit> http://thecoccinella.org/
<troy_s> i recognize that name
<troy_s> i think i suggested it a year or so ago
<troy_s> WOW
<troy_s> you can send music samples too
<troy_s> that looks like a very good thing to try
<nothlit> i think the most prolific online collaborative drawing software is oekakis, but those aren't real time
<troy_s> nothlit: I dont know it...
<troy_s> nothlit: Link?
<nothlit> troy_s: hmm just search for oekaki
<nothlit> they're like forums for artists
<troy_s> again, you don't reallyneed too much power, just enough to communicate
<nothlit> a few varieties, java applets in which you draw
<nothlit> saving, comments
<nothlit> and different levels
<nothlit> mostly used by anime lovers
<troy_s> wow
<troy_s> i had NO idea
<nothlit> neatest thing is a lot of them have history, so you can watch the whole thing
<nothlit> theres some quality stuff, and a lot of those guys are mousers
<troy_s> is the code gpl?
<troy_s> for the site?
<nothlit> hmm
<nothlit> theres oekaki software freely available
<nothlit> you can plop it into your server easy
<nothlit> visit http://www.skrbl.com/42135377 -- i want to try this
* yharrow is downloading coccinella
<nothlit> this skrbl ajax thing is nifty
<nothlit> yharrow: just visit it in a gecko browser :P
<troy_s> wow
<troy_s> that skrbl thing is cool
<yharrow> yeah
<troy_s> yharrow: that must be using canvas
<troy_s> the newer canvas property
<yharrow> hmm, never heard of it
<yharrow> looks sweet though
<troy_s> canvas?
<yharrow> did you guys notice the search box on the bottom right
<yharrow> you can search the text of the board
<yharrow> troy_s: if thats using canvas, then yeah
<troy_s> http://canvaspaint.org/
<troy_s> try that...
<troy_s> the canvas property is pretty bloody incredible.
<troy_s> this is pretty incredible using the <canvas> tag
<troy_s> http://www.abrahamjoffe.com.au/ben/canvascape/
<troy_s> http://caimansys.com/painter/
<troy_s> more <canvas>
<nothlit> thats ajax?
<nothlit> who know ajax could make me dizzy
<nothlit> knew*
<troy_s> nothlit: That's strictly using the html <canvas>
<troy_s> which is rather mind boggling
<nothlit> html can do things so dynamic?
<troy_s> http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/
<troy_s> i think that's her 'finals'
<nothlit> hmm its still using javascript
<troy_s> nothlit: <canvas> is the workhorse there though.
* yharrow goes to hcek itout
<yharrow> check*
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-05-04
<lapo_> hi
<TheSheep> troy_s: ping
<darkmatter> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/stuff/xgl-login.ogg  <--- we need to steal some ideas from SuSE ;P
<nothlit> darkmatter: anything new on MorningGlory?
<darkmatter> not yet.. just working on it now
<darkmatter> :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Pong!
<ra21vi> nothlit: are you there?
<troy_s> greets ra21vi
<troy_s> good to see you discussing some work on the community theme -- that's you correct?
<troy_s> darkmatter: sabdfl is completely petrified of 'new' design.
<troy_s> TheSheep: ping
<ra21vi> yup,
<ra21vi> troy_s: you too interested in that
<troy_s> darkmatter: *sigh* that wallpaper on novel's is pretty petrified too.  lol.
<troy_s> ra21vi: I have been for a while, but I am hoping that more community members get out and actually start pushing the boulder up the hill by providing some brainstorming material etc.
<ra21vi> troy_s: actually I am not a good artists, its what myself tells me :]  but I do visualize and analyze things to some par
<ra21vi> thats why I am interested do some research over new theme...
<ra21vi> troy_s: will be back in 10 mins.. :|
<ra21vi> troy_s: where are you? country
<troy_s> Canada.
<ra21vi> studying
<darkmatter> troy_s, lol
<troy_s> darkmatter: Its true man!
<troy_s> darkmatter: I have discussed it with him at relative length.
<troy_s> darkmatter: He simply doesn't get it.
<troy_s> at _all_
<troy_s> darkmatter: Further, as soon as you add in a colour to a design you get comments "I think the xxx color is confusing the palette" -- end quote.
<troy_s> darkmatter: There is a complete VOID of knowledge, a complete VOID of status regarding art and design (its rather an afterthought or add - on), and a complete VOID of any sort of fundamental theory / approach.
<darkmatter> aye
<troy_s> To be honest however, it isn't like there are many distros that get it.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Arguably there is ONE that is being pushed via the brain of D. Fong.
<darkmatter> oh?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Novell's is equally awful - not only blue, but nasty mundane.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Yeah the Fedora work.  Against the odds, she is showing the community how it _must_ be approached.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Better yet, she documented her process -- which is a step towards educating the buffoonary.
<darkmatter> cool
<TheSheep> troy_s: have you read any Paul Graham's essays?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Negative.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Have you browsed that design-emotion site?  There are some amazing interviews on there -- from Frogdesign to BMW etc.
<TheSheep> http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html
<TheSheep> troy_s: they mostly sound like "advertise with us, we will make you sell" :/
<TheSheep> troy_s: not my area of interests
<TheSheep> troy_s: and there is a lot of "what we can do for you if you pay us" and none "how we actually do it"
<troy_s> There is an interesting quotation in there:
<troy_s> The place to fight design wars is in new markets, where no one has yet managed to establish any fortifications. That's where you can win big by taking the bold approach to design, and having the same people both design and implement the product. Microsoft themselves did this at the start. So did Apple. And Hewlett-Packard. I suspect almost every successful startup has.
<troy_s> Like painting, most software is intended for a human audience. And so hackers, like painters, must have empathy to do really great work. You have to be able to see things from the user's point of view.
<troy_s> Boy, was I wrong. It turns out that looking at things from other people's point of view is practically the secret of success. It doesn't necessarily mean being self-sacrificing. Far from it. Understanding how someone else sees things doesn't imply that you'll act in his interest; in some situations-- in war, for example-- you want to do exactly the opposite.
<TheSheep> know your enemy
<troy_s> TheSheep: Was there a reason you pulled that article up?
<troy_s> TheSheep: That site isn't great in terms of its own content (design emotion) but the articles are top shelf.
<troy_s> TheSheep: The interviews with designers that are pretty hard to get interviews with.
<ra21vi> so whats going on
<TheSheep> troy_s: sorry, commuting :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, I hit these essays myself recently, and I thought it's somehow related to what you're interested in
<TheSheep> troy_s: especially http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yes he is clueless on that count.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I can't even begin to start reading something when someone dismisses relativism as 'fashionable'
<TheSheep> :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is the underlying structure that you _must_ deal with and _must_ build upon.
<TheSheep> troy_s: scroll up and read the snippet you just pasted ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: If we _accept_ relativism, we can begin to do solid design consideration for the specific needs of particular group.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Missing it... the 'boy was i wrong' quote?
<TheSheep> troy_s: the guy may be wrong, but he basically puts into words the philosophy and approach of the hackerdom :)
<troy_s> True enough.
<ra21vi> Have you people read the MacOSX User Interface design guide?
<ra21vi> troy_s: ^
<troy_s> TheSheep: He certainly has an ability to phrase things in different analogous light.
<troy_s> ra21vi: Yes.
<ra21vi> troy_s: pretty informative, right
<troy_s> ra21vi: And the Windows ones...
<TheSheep> ra21vi: hardly -- it's all concerned about the spacing of buttons :/
<troy_s> ra21vi: Informative is one thing... I think that the internal review process at Apple is more on point than the guide can be to outside developers.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hey I like that!
<troy_s> TheSheep: That is a design blueprint.
<troy_s> lol
<ra21vi> troy_s: Windows guide, I could not find that, also, There is something good in windows UI, else much things are macs
<TheSheep> ra21vi: the vista user experience guidelines it's called
<ra21vi> are we in the process of reinventing the wheel
<TheSheep> ra21vi: http://ui.sheep.art.pl/Human_Interface_Guidelines
<TheSheep> vista's guidelines are actually pretty good
<TheSheep> shame they provide the real solutions from vista as "don't do that" examples %)
<ra21vi> TheSheep: I will read that, then would comment anythign
<troy_s> ra21vi: No.  That assumes the 'wheel' works and is complete...
<troy_s> ra21vi: Computers, in the desktop sense have only been around a few decads.
<troy_s> decades...
<troy_s> ra21vi: In terms of design, we can't cite a design pattern as we can in automobiles for example, which have a very clear aesthetic lineage now...
<troy_s> ra21vi: If you look to automobiles in the first part of their existence, they were very much the same issues at hand that we are discussing now...
<troy_s> ra21vi: Many preferred 'just make it go' approach
<troy_s> ra21vi: Then empires were built on top of aesthetic driven design.
<nothlit> Well UI isn't set in stone--it still evolving
<troy_s> ra21vi: And even more so, distinct classes of aesthetic driven design -- for example -- look to the diversity that Toyota or Honda has provided to their users...
<troy_s> nothlit: Exactly.
<ra21vi> right
<troy_s> ra21vi: For example, the Pilot has a very very very specific audience
<ra21vi> but you evolve with somethign as base
<troy_s> ra21vi: We have our base -- it is shit unfortunately.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ever seen the models of Toyota and Honda produced for the japanese market? :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: creeping featuritis
<troy_s> ra21vi: We evolve from what we start as.  As of now, it is completely riddled with a mentality that is legacy of the wonderful and talented hardcore software coders.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is interesting though, that again, that appeals to that market.
<ra21vi> dont confuse me with these long route examples
<troy_s> TheSheep: again, the AUDIENCE governs all.
<ra21vi> ok, here is a quick question...
<ra21vi> tell the keywords you find Vista UI, Windows XP UI, and Apple UI
<TheSheep> troy_s: I think that only coders and hackers actually want computers -- the rest is just after "smart" tv/vcr, e-mail, wwww, etc.
<TheSheep> troy_s: and such devices begin to appear
<troy_s> TheSheep: If we were able to acutely distinguish YOUR aesthetic, we could probably design something that is perfect for you that you would love.  This is all 'duh' to you however :)
<ra21vi> no keywords,
<ra21vi> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: My personal belief is that bloody operating systems should learn a thing or two from TV/VCR land.
<nothlit> TheSheep: well imo, its leading more to form factors than function, with technology, function can be fluid.
<troy_s> TheSheep: What worked, what doesn't.
<ra21vi> I actually cann't get what you people are behind making
<troy_s> nothlit: Form/Function is great -- but remember -- a very FUNCTIONAL aspect is aesthetics.
<troy_s> ra21vi: You would need to have inside looks into the design process
<troy_s> ra21vi: You don't get them coming out and saying those sorts of things --
<troy_s> ra21vi: For example, what is Vista?
<ra21vi> hmm
<TheSheep> beautiful :)
<troy_s> ra21vi: Pretty simple that 'beautiful' was a keyword
<ra21vi> ok let me explain Vista...
<nothlit> troy_s: as in form factors, (ie size,portability,screen size,ergonomics) vs internet,phone,tv,etc
<troy_s> ra21vi: EVERYTHING is steered from it... look at the NAME, look at the DEFAULT WALLPAPER,
<troy_s> that is a communicative goal.
<TheSheep> troy_s: a line of products and services :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: lol... yes hidden behind the illusion they want you to see.
<troy_s> ra21vi: For example, take even the more 'abstract' wallpaper in vista
<ra21vi> a resourse hungry, slow but intelligent towards Users experince (as they were said ot develop), much beutiful and evolved OS with centralized everything, and people o\know where the most of the things are
<troy_s> notice the palette?  the shafts of light?
<TheSheep> troy_s: actually more services than products
<troy_s> yep -- taken straight out of underwater photography.
<troy_s> ra21vi: In the end, computer operating systems seem to think they are exempt from the traditional knowledge of art and design.  This is simply not the case.
<ra21vi> so which design principals you apply here
<troy_s> ra21vi: So if we go back to the basics, you find that communication and audience generally govern all.
<troy_s> Who are you communicating TO?
<troy_s> WHAT are you communicating?
<troy_s> That is about as simple as it gets.
<TheSheep> troy_s: there is one small point
<troy_s> and arguably, those two questions flow through every art movement in history.
<troy_s> ra21vi: I don't understand your question.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Go.
<ra21vi> you can't decide what people like, ok, there is variety in likes and dislikes, therefore there are several music types, saveral other intefaces, clothers
<TheSheep> troy_s: FSF was created exactly for the purpose to fight and break this way of doing business
<troy_s> ra21vi: Great.  So you acknowledge point 1 of art and design.
<TheSheep> troy_s: whole GPL is to fight "market"
<troy_s> ra21vi: That is exactly my point -- you need to realize that your art and design will be LIKED and DISLIKED.
<troy_s> that said, you can crank it up a notch and turn those into LOVED and HATED
<troy_s> which is probably closer to where Apple is... when you start dealing with high end home design for example, it gets VERY polemical.
<TheSheep> love and hate are bad for usablility but good for business
<troy_s> or architecture for that matter.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Good for usability too.
<ra21vi> you have to find the things which everypeople (means most of people) expect (from their past experinces) and then evolve your designs from that common things'
<TheSheep> the best interfaces are so boring tha they are not even noticed
<troy_s> TheSheep: Users want interfaces that are "aesthetically" the way they want.
<troy_s> ra21vi: Disagree.
<ra21vi> TheSheep: like
<TheSheep> troy_s: what users want and what is good for usability are two totally distincts things
<troy_s> ra21vi: Do a little research into the history of art and how what is 'beautiful' changes
<ra21vi> troy_s: where? at common users point
<ra21vi> ok let me know if you like http://ra21vi.googlepages.com
<troy_s> TheSheep: In the end, one could argue that the most lauded computer operating system in that regard is Apple -- and it is LOVED by its users.  It is completely daft to some however.
<troy_s> ra21vi: well i think this is where traditional notions of demographics comes into play
<troy_s> ra21vi: and why they are utilized just about everywhere.
<ra21vi> troy_s: agree, apple has best thing in pocket (design and art)
<troy_s> ra21vi: What is that?
<ra21vi> troy_s: just look at the design and colors,
<troy_s> ra21vi: But the thing that a lot of people are unwilling to see is that Apple is all about aesthetics and aesthetic choices.
<TheSheep> ra21vi: increase letter spacing in these small-caps titles
<troy_s> ra21vi: The colors are completely relative... hell the 'gel' look is dated now.
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> ra21vi: The trick is to hire the minds that specialize in paying attention to trends / context / etc.
<ra21vi> troy_s: TheSheep : don't expect much in just 8hrs work
<troy_s> ra21vi: What is that?
<nothlit> Apple is about ease of use and product design
<troy_s> ra21vi: I think it is quite good actually, I just don't know what it is.
<troy_s> nothlit: For a particular audience.
<troy_s> ;)
<TheSheep> ra21vi: that's simple letter-spacing: 0.05em or something like that
<ra21vi> troy_s: oh, that is nothing, a project for my university, a website centred arounf the google map and information relative to universtiy
<troy_s> nothlit: Rephrased -- Apple is about ease of use for a mature north american audience.
<nothlit> and those who want to be "mature"
<troy_s> nothlit: In fact, I can guarantee that their audience is very clearly mapped out with age and the rest of it.
<ra21vi> nothlit: i forgot whats the name of the theme you developed?
<troy_s> nothlit: True enough.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ease of learning and exploration may be culture-dependent, same aestetics, but all people are build the same and have similar congnitive processes -- so the underlying structure can be optimized for general audience
<troy_s> ra21vi: To which thing are you referring?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Theoretically yes.  That has been proven wrong regarding aesthetic value judgements however -- consider the learning of Phi as expressed during the Ren and compare it to the aesthetics issued in certain regions.
<troy_s> TheSheep: So the old nurture versus nature argument pops up again.
<nothlit> ra21vi: .? "CommunityTheme" ? lol?
<TheSheep> ra21vi: ubun2 ?
<ra21vi> troy_s: using light color as base and have very light background with good contrast objects over it in theme and all other things
<troy_s> TheSheep: Arguably, I would LOVE to believe that, but I can't based on my knowledge or research.
<nothlit> ra21vi: someone else made 'OranSun', is that what you're talking about?
<ra21vi> nothlit: yup, i thought its your :|
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, you come from the marketing-driven end :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: there user *decissions* mean more
<troy_s> ra21vi: Functionally you make a very distinct choice when you go into contrast for wallpapers -- you lose your work on the desktop in icons etc, but you can more expressively communicate with higher contrast.  Just depends on what you set out on your plate as an audience.
* nothlit is 'nothlit', not 'Lizardking' lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: Actually, no... I come from the artsty farsty part.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Meaning that there is no such thing as universal anywhere.
<ra21vi> TheSheep: no bro, its the thing that, if you give much complex colors filling the screen, it would attract some, and for only little time
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is entirely relatavistic -- and embracing that is no shortcoming.
<TheSheep> troy_s: so you don't agree with what Donald Norman wrote in The Design of Everyday Things?
<troy_s> TheSheep: relativity often overlooks, however, Context
<troy_s> TheSheep: Which particular statement out of that?
<troy_s> ra21vi: That is a broad sweeping statement.  I assure you it is false.
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, he's giving a number of universal patterns for usable design, based on the human thought process and perception
<ra21vi> troy_s: lol, then I am disqualified
<troy_s> ra21vi: When choosing colours, you have about three elements to consider:  Context, Culture, and Communication.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'd say he suggests that they are meant to make the design generally better, no matter the audience
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yes, it just doesn't hold up in reality.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, some cultures in Africa for example, compose in a circular format.
<ra21vi> whats the Global culture you know>? there is many.. cant serve all
<troy_s> (again related to all sorts of thigns that are specific to their culture)
<troy_s> ra21vi: Better get used to it.
<troy_s> ra21vi: There is no Global Culture.
<troy_s> ra21vi: That's that bullshit utopian crap that you read in blogs.
<ra21vi> troy_s: means?
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, if you can just *see* how somethng works, you don't need cultural assumptions and constraints to operate it
<troy_s> TheSheep: Aesthetically, it simply doesn't hold up.  Hell look at portraiture from prior to the ren -- look at the compositional symmetry versus assymetrical
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yes... but what I am suggesting is that EVEN if you say all humans have FIVE fingers on each hand, it doesn't IMPLY that they all will do the same things with them.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm not talking about aestetics here, I mean about ussing the thing
<troy_s> TheSheep: And a good chunk of that is 'what they know'
<troy_s> TheSheep: Being culture / environment
<troy_s> TheSheep: If it applies to aesthetics, it also applies to using -- they are synonymous.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, I am a pretty big beliver in miller's work on magic 7
<troy_s> TheSheep: But I am also quite willing to acknowledge that there is probably a culture that is an exception to that 'rule'
<troy_s> ra21vi: Meaning that there is NO such creature as 'perfect' in any shape.
<nothlit> Something can be very aethetically appealing without being functional or usable...
<troy_s> nothlit: And in fact, being aesthetically appealing
<troy_s> nothlit: Actually influences usability
<TheSheep> a little
<troy_s> nothlit: It is called the 'Aesthetic Usability Effect' as a general term
<troy_s> TheSheep:  A _lot_
<troy_s> I can't remember who coined it...
<troy_s> (again probalby north american based too -- so take with caution)
<troy_s> let me dig out a reference
<troy_s> "Aesthetic designs are perceived as easier to use than less-aesthetic designs."
<troy_s> see
<troy_s> "Apparent Usability vs. Inherent Usability:  Experimental Analysis on the Determinants of the Apparent Usabililty" by
<troy_s> Masaaki Kurosu and Kaori Kashimura CHI '95
<troy_s> Conference Companion, 1995, p. 292-293
<troy_s> phew
<nothlit> perception, of course, but with continued use--its factor is <greatly> diminished
<troy_s> nothlit: Disagree... look to apple.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> Apple is all about aesthetic.
<troy_s> and a good deal of the usability foobardom in there is 'Wow its apple'
<troy_s> It creates an atmosphere where people look over the smaller details that might not work, and see the bigger picture.
<troy_s> see
<ra21vi> ok guys I can't understand whats goingon really... pretty confusing to me
<ra21vi> but what I can say, here it is...
<troy_s> "Emotion and Design:  Attractive Things Work Better" by Donald Norman, www.jnd.org, 2002 if it is still up
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's more about emotions than aestetics themselves, although they affect emotions greatly
<nothlit> troy_s: well for me anyways--as time goes on i only look at it as a tool--and in fact aesthetics can sometimes decrease my productivity
<nothlit> troy_s: i end up staring at my patched antialiased fonts instead of using the ui :)
<troy_s> nothlit: Then it isn't aesthetically appealing to you !
<troy_s> lol
<lapo_> hi
<TheSheep> nothlit: tool are aestetic too, it depends on how much you know about them. LISP *is8 beautiful
<troy_s> nothlit: Again, never mistake aesthetics -- if you like it -- it is aesthetically pleasing.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would agree... chairs can be too.
<troy_s> greets lapo
<TheSheep> troy_s: a monkey wrench can be beautiful :)
<troy_s> The overall point is that there is NO such creature as 'beautiful'
<nothlit> It is lol--but I don't see it anymore, I shift behaviors with repetitive use
<lapo> hey troy_s
<troy_s> except when examined in terms of context and culture.
<troy_s> nothlit: Which is exactly why aesthetics evolve.
<troy_s> Even a most precursory examination of art trends (say art 101 style thinking)
<troy_s> would illuminate that.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I want to show you a certain icon design, that's totally unaestetic and unusable, yet affects emotion positively
<nothlit> TheSheep: sure--but i'm talking about the visuals rather than the structure
<troy_s> TheSheep: Go
<troy_s> TheSheep: Love to see it.
<nothlit> oh
<troy_s> TheSheep: Although arguably, EVERYTHING has an aesthetic component.
<nothlit> the stripy theme?
<nothlit> i d/led that lol
<troy_s> ra21vi: What were you going to see?
<troy_s> nothlit: DId you see that lith icon set I posted ages ago?
<troy_s> Very stylized.
<troy_s> Very shiek.
<troy_s> sheik even.
<troy_s> lol
* troy_s wonders if sheiks use the word 'sheik' lol...
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/tmp/Schermata.png
<ra21vi> i was thinking of sticking to real environment, creating real objects (look wise) and giving the feel of depth and sharpness in edges,
<troy_s> ra21vi: Probably need a sample
<lapo> TheSheep: woah, what's that junk?! :-)
<troy_s> ra21vi: I would put it on the scrapbook
<TheSheep> lapo: hehe
<ra21vi> I read and have tested it that when there is no much contrast and sharpness in objects, it creates strain to eyes and aesthetic objects soon loses its all things
<troy_s> Wow... talk about strange lol.
<nothlit> troy_s: no i don't think so
<troy_s> ra21vi: As soon as I read eye 'strain' I vomit.
<TheSheep> troy_s: see, it's funny
<nothlit> shiek? not chic?
<troy_s> nothlit: Yeah weird eh?
<troy_s> http://www.i4designmagazine.com/events.php
<troy_s> read the first line
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not exactly
<ra21vi> your eyes are better than my
<troy_s> TheSheep: For one, the first thing I read out of those icons is that they are for the gay crowd
<troy_s> TheSheep: Deadly serious -- as the rainbow is iconographic of the queer crowd.  Again, context!
<troy_s> :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: I have severa gay friends and I can assure you their tastes are nothing like that
<troy_s> erm probably more culture in that case.
<nothlit> i think of the second definition lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheik :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: I have many too... but I see that icon set more as icon -- motif through a colour pattern.
<troy_s> nothlit: Strange though eh?
<TheSheep> troy_s: I see it as a gag :)
<troy_s> chic and sheik
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: It still communicates.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Which is the entire point...
<TheSheep> of course
<nothlit> really? i thought of young girls who want rainbows and pretty colours and pink everywhere
<darkmatter> TheSheep, one can also see it as "ARRRGGHHH! MY EYES!" :P
<troy_s> nothlit: Its true -- I have one!
<TheSheep> in this aspect it's much better than the default gnome theme :)
<nothlit> TheSheep: btw folder-saved-search.svg is my favorite :P
<troy_s> darkmatter: My daughter would disagree with you to the death.
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: WOOT
<TheSheep> nothlit: I love my little ponny with long hair waaah! ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: MyLittle Ponies are gifted with their ability to suck them in, true.
<troy_s> TheSheep: But I can almost assure you she would love those icons.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I read a very good article on children aesthetic values
<TheSheep> troy_s: wonder why they don't make goth little ponies ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: It basically was predicated on the notion that children haven't exactly been exposed to many different aesthetic ranges, so their idea of 'difference' is built on dramatic degrees.
<troy_s> Hence the tendency for children to fall prey to the primary colour motifs.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Very interesting stuffs.
<TheSheep> makes sense
<TheSheep> then again, anything does ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Woo the LSD!
<TheSheep> troy_s: peace brother
<troy_s> TheSheep: Is it coincidence that Steve Jobs considers one of the most valuable things he has ever done to be LSD?
<troy_s> TheSheep: I THINK NOT
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lmao
<troy_s> nothlit: Aim high on the creativity target.
<TheSheep> I rememeber that comparison of webs spiders make after iniecting them with LSD and caffeine
<ra21vi> zzzz
<ra21vi> ok, going to sleep...
<ra21vi> bye
<TheSheep> ra21vi: bye
<troy_s> <ra21vi> ok guys I can't understand whats goingon really... pretty confusing to me
<TheSheep> haha
<TheSheep> stream of consciousness :)
<troy_s> Yep.
<TheSheep> sink or swim
<troy_s> The webs are bloody cool.
<lapo> LSD...interesting, I have a manual somewhere on how to make it :-)
<troy_s> lol.
<troy_s> lapo its pretty easy if you extract it from morning glory seeds or hawwain woodrose
<troy_s> fuck my spelling sucks ass.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> wtf is that?!
<TheSheep> troy_s: there was some suggestion to compare the spiders to the modern programmers mostly only living off coffee and cola ;)
<troy_s> LOL
<lapo> eheh
<TheSheep> and webs to the programs they make
<lapo> that caffeine and cola thing is an american myth tho
<troy_s> lapo: +1
<nothlit> lapo: thinkgeek would disagree lol
<troy_s> nothlit: anyways, you should get those words out so I can create a launchpad poll.
<troy_s> under:
<nothlit> lol
<troy_s> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art/+polls
<TheSheep> troy_s: I pretty much believe in Pirsing's notion of Quality
<nothlit> kk
* nothlit ignores channel for the next few minutes
<troy_s> Then we can perhaps work on a palette with a (relatively) democratic selection.
<TheSheep> haha, democratic art, that's grand
<troy_s> TheSheep: Prising is coming up as 'command not found' in my head.
<TheSheep> troy_s: "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
<troy_s> TheSheep: I think democracy has its place really -- and I firmly believe it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: good read
<troy_s> TheSheep: Rather like illusion though --
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is what I do with my daughter -- I provide her two choices
<troy_s> and she picks one.
<TheSheep> troy_s: democracy is a nce tool for managing people
<TheSheep> troy_s: but not for getting thngs done
<troy_s> TheSheep: Disagree.
<troy_s> TheSheep: If the flow of democracy is directed, it gets done fine.
<TheSheep> hah
<troy_s> TheSheep: No guarantee on quality, but then again, there isn't without it either.
<TheSheep> directed democracy, I must remember that
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Well... voting for example
<troy_s> TheSheep: That's directed democracy
<troy_s> TheSheep: Vote for Bush or Blah
<troy_s> Not exactly democratic, but it arrives at a conclusion.
<TheSheep> yup yup
<troy_s> Again, and perhaps very relevant to that example, you are never assured quality.
<TheSheep> reminds me of collecting statistics for a scientific paper :)
<troy_s> But the good news is that those who participate HOPEFULLY learn
<TheSheep> once you already have the paper written and just miss the diagrams
<troy_s> Hell, we need look no further than say, Ubuntu's look to realize that the other side sucks ass too.
<TheSheep> 90% of anything sucks
<troy_s> TheSheep: Relative world :)  There are only paradoxes when you try to mix vantage points.  I think some idiot named Einstein said that ages ago...
<darkmatter> hey troy_s this is for you http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484184032&size=o
<darkmatter> *runs*
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> actually, i like the simplicity of the actual interface though, if I must admit.
<troy_s> :)
<darkmatter> yup
<lapo> TheSheep: and the other 10% is so and so :-)
<TheSheep> hehe, start menu strikes back
<troy_s> well aside from the stupid
<troy_s> "what the fuck are those" icons down below
<troy_s> that mean feck all.
<TheSheep> darkmatter: this is wrong in so many ways I just lack words :)
<nothlit> darkmatter: that looks like suse
<troy_s> nothlit: Methinks it is.
<darkmatter> no.. thats ubuntu
<nothlit> troy_s: with the ubuntu help center lol
<troy_s> again, though, to a mainstream user, that panel is useless.
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> time to install debian...
<darkmatter> me found the gtkrc for gilouche 2.0 and tossed together the missing pgs
<troy_s> Which get's back to TheSheep's idea of TVs and VCRs
<troy_s> is that sled darkmatter ?
<darkmatter> feisty
<darkmatter> :P
<TheSheep> troy_s: and dedicated devices for receiving e-mails, like blueberry
<nothlit> troy_s: 10 foot interfaces :D
<troy_s> TheSheep: No reason your computer can't do it too -- just more hidden
<nothlit> htpc software is exciting and new in terms of ui
<troy_s> nothlit: I am all for them if mainstream folks can use them.
<TheSheep> troy_s: most people don't even want computers in their homes
<troy_s> nothlit: But TIVO derivative.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's an intruder
<troy_s> TheSheep: Exactly the point -- look at them
<troy_s> TheSheep: They look like shit
<TheSheep> troy_s: some are nice
<troy_s> TheSheep: Christ, do you want Ubuntu's default look in YOUR feckign living room?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Gah.
<troy_s> Or, for that matter -- ANY distro?
<nothlit> I like japanese notebook design :)
<troy_s> gah gah
<troy_s> nothlit: Link?
<troy_s> I want something that LOOKS like it belongs in a home.
<troy_s> Not a basement.
<nothlit> troy_s: =/ ehh.. there was a slim siemens
<troy_s> I doubt I am alone.
<nothlit> i don't buy the light form factor notebooks, wouldn't know their names
<troy_s> darkmatter: Is that sled?
<darkmatter> no
<darkmatter> its feisty
<troy_s> wtf is it?!
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> no the menu you stinker
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://flickr.com/photos/zapwizard/sets/269920/
<troy_s> darkmatter: ?
<darkmatter> its the gnome-main-menu
<troy_s> nothlit: I don't know if rablah gets it.
<troy_s> nothlit: I worry.
<darkmatter> not sled... sleds a bloated os
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> nothlit: I fear more of the u-a crowd is right there.
<troy_s> um... darkmatter i mean the S launcher
<troy_s> whatever the hell it is calle.d
<troy_s> darkmatter: What is that launcher
<troy_s> TheSheep: yes... that's the shit
<darkmatter> its called the "gnome-main-menu version 2" :P
<troy_s> TheSheep: although I don't like the stylings in general...
<lapo> ugh what's that wooden mess
<troy_s> darkmatter: is it a mock?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Or a real package?
<darkmatter> no.. its from svn
<TheSheep> troy_s: they are deadly serious about it
<troy_s> TheSheep: http://flickr.com/photos/zapwizard/28866253/in/set-269920/
<troy_s> they should be
<troy_s> it is RIGHT on the mark
<darkmatter> though I had to hack it a bit to play nice with brownbumpoo
<darkmatter> errr
<lapo> TheSheep: ugh
<darkmatter> ubuntu*
<troy_s> and now compare how Ubuntu works from a semantic standpoint with that design
<darkmatter> sorry... honest typo
<nothlit> troy_s: well they don't understand that our chosen process starts from a much deeper foundation--they're distracted with sweeping generalisations and ui hangups
<troy_s> lapo: Ugh?  Please.
<troy_s> nothlit: Amen my brother.  Amen.
<nothlit> troy_s: i think that once we get it going, they'll catch on
<lapo> troy_s: c'mon it's a good tecnology abuse! :-)
<troy_s> lapo: It is too busy in styling for my taste, but that said, it is a helluva lot down the right path.
<TheSheep> troy_s: modding is expenisve
<nothlit> <joke>either that or we'll shove diana fongs process down everyone's throats</>
<troy_s> lapo: As in, at least that direction has a future...
<troy_s> TheSheep: The case I am bundling up for u2 is dead cheap actually.
<TheSheep> hah
<troy_s> TheSheep: Deadly cheap.  Simple solid pine plunged.
<troy_s> nothlit: lol
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, you can use it in the fireplace :-)
<TheSheep> troy_s: what about fire safety precautions? ;)
<troy_s> nothlit: Yeah what does she know... lol.
<troy_s> nothlit: Again though, there are too many legacy mindsets out in the wild.
<troy_s> lapo: I hope you are kidding.
<nothlit> oh--you know who does some great woodwork? audio-technica
<lapo> a computer like that has no bugs it has woodworms
<troy_s> lapo: If not, I challenge you to show that design (as not quite right as it might be) to mainstream.
<troy_s> lapo: Wood is good.
<troy_s> lapo: And quite frankly, far more contemporary design (although again, my aesthetic stylings are slightly different)
<troy_s> nothlit: The audio guys are TOP shelf wood types
<lapo> troy_s: sure looking at all the computer brand design it looks like the future, used quite a lot eh? :-)
<troy_s> nothlit: Look at some of B&W's stuff.
<TheSheep> I acrually love this: http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml
<troy_s> lapo: Please.
<TheSheep> (scroll to bottom)
<lapo> troy_s: the use of wood in audio is not only for design reasons
<troy_s> lapo: You really need to give your head a shake.  Future implies NOT NOW.
<troy_s> lapo: Actually, again, they have done research that shows that particle board performs better than wood
<troy_s> lapo: In many instances
<troy_s> (believe it or not)
<troy_s> lapo: So it is almost always strictly aesthetic lending back to notions of crafted instruments.
<nothlit> lapo: lol--in terms of audio-technica... its done a lot more for aesthetic reasons than sound
<lapo> troy_s: I don't really think it is future, wood is a lot more expensive then plastic or metal in series productions so I don't really think it can be a viable design way
<troy_s> nothlit: AMen.
<troy_s> lapo: Wait and see then... :)
<troy_s> lapo: But mark the words.
<nothlit> they can't get that flat frequency reproduction easily--and it bumps the price way up.
<troy_s> lapo: That is the difference between looking at trends and design outside of the given field.
<troy_s> lapo: Our little crowd is far too closed minded.  It only opens when someone else does it.
<lapo> nothlit: yeah, right the best wood in audio use is MDF which looks quite bad
<troy_s> lapo: But it is great for acoustics!
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> infact it's usually covered in nicer wood
<TheSheep> troy_s: you can't design outside of trend if everything is relative :P
<troy_s> nothlit: But it is interesting how many people actually firmly believe that the wood offers better acoustic curves... design illusion?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Damn you and your LSD.
<troy_s> TheSheep: We really needed to know each other back in the University years... lol.
<TheSheep> troy_s: you're welcome
<troy_s> TheSheep: On a serious note, having that caution I think is darn important no matter what era you are in.
<lapo> troy_s: wood usually offer better sound, but MDF that is not nice expensive wood (variable density is bad) :-)
<troy_s> lapo: The point is, the bulk of wood in audio high end design is strictly aesthetic
<troy_s> lapo: And it has a long legacy of aesthetic reasoning behind it.
<troy_s> lapo: Connotation to instruments is probably JUST the starting point.
<lapo> troy_s: yeah
<troy_s> lapo: I should show you the art designers work fro "The Final Cut"
<troy_s> lapo:  Let me dig them out... hold on ok?
<TheSheep> music instruments are the usbalility nightmare and dream at the same time
<troy_s> (i know the guy who designed the unit -- so I have some photos)
<lapo> troy_s: anyway look at the design of the latest audio creation the wood is not used so much nowdays
<lapo> creations
<troy_s> lapo: But that is audio.
<troy_s> lapo:  What we discuss here is viable design patterns that have yet to be applied to computing.
<nothlit> lapo: warm sound does <not> equal truthful reproduction
<lapo> nothlit: yeah
<troy_s> feck thank god for gmail
<nothlit> plus Wood can blunt sound and obscure clarity and detail
<lapo> nothlit: yeah, but sound is a strange beast
<lapo> nothlit: very subjective since there are no "true" way to measure it
<troy_s> sound is again, about aesthetics.
<troy_s> after all...
<lapo> yas
<lapo> yes even
<troy_s> some guys hear the cardboard woofer in techshopisus
<troy_s> and go WOW
<troy_s> lapo: Now bear in mind that Kelvin had to make this unit fully functional
<troy_s> lapo: So the laptop actually worked (as Robin had to use it in the movie)
<troy_s> and yes... its 100% wood.
<troy_s> (which is rather cool)
<TheSheep> well, the cpu is silicon... ;)
<TheSheep> troy_s: lemme see too!
<troy_s> TheSheep: the board...
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> hold on...
<troy_s> wiking
<lapo> all te paths are metal, its's not 100% wood! :-)
<troy_s> These were shipped by a friend so please don't spread the images.
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/temp
<TheSheep> I wants
<troy_s> The laptop sits in the middle (look to the finger depth gouge)
* TheSheep drools
<troy_s> so the center point is the
<troy_s> laptop
<troy_s> (also notice that the director wanted a 60's russian feel to the tech so there are
<lapo> TheSheep: nice I want the steampunk keyboard!
<troy_s> wood motifs along the edges)
<troy_s> lapo: STEAMPUNK -- WOOP
<troy_s> isn't that keyboard fecking beautiful?!
<troy_s> kelvin had a bitch getting the internals into that lappy
<troy_s> lol
<nothlit> lapo: what? you can certainly measure accurate reproduction
<TheSheep> lapo: there is this... building called Stary Browar in poznan: http://www.starybrowar.pl
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, but that's a lot different from the other wooden design
<troy_s> i think the point is, styling AGAIN aside (as that unit is for a particular bit of movie magic), THAT direction fits into most modern maintstream livingrooms better than ANTYHING curretnly out there.
<TheSheep> lapo: a huge steampunk building
<troy_s> lapo: That's the point.
<lapo> nothlit: nope you cannot
<nothlit> lapo: and i'm guessing words just warm/ crisp/ etc can be quantified
<troy_s> TheSheep: You are Czechland correct?
<lapo> nothlit: yeah but your perception of crispness is different then mine
<TheSheep> troy_s: Poland
<nothlit> lapo: a lot of descriptions of the sound of a speaker or headphone are actually characteristics of the spectrum reproduction
<TheSheep> troy_s: close
<troy_s> uh oh... WELCOME BACK TO RELATVISIM
<troy_s> TheSheep: do you know of kristof kieslowski's work?
<troy_s> (bloody amazing)
<TheSheep> troy_s: yes
<TheSheep> troy_s: bloody
<nothlit> troy_s: thats that robin williams movie thing
<lapo> nothlit: yes, but it involves how your brain get those, teorically the cd should be the best media for music
<troy_s> nothlit: Yes.
<nothlit> with the memory footage editor
<nothlit> lapo: and your cilia/earshape etc :D
<lapo> nothlit: cause the hears should not get more then 44khz, but a vynil sounds better
<TheSheep> direct neural transmission is the best media for music ;)
<troy_s> Can we not just accept that EVERYTHING IN THE BLOODY WORLD IS RELATIVE?  Just accept that Einstein, as much as he BOTCHED "Spooky action at a distance", was deadly right.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Depends on your cabling.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ZAP!
<troy_s> lapo: "better"(tm)
<nothlit> TheSheep: =/
<troy_s> lapo: Some people would kill you if they read that ;)
<TheSheep> troy_s: plug directly into the pleasure centers and you're done ;)
<nothlit> TheSheep: then everybody would hear what the mic recorded, not what their ears normally hear
<lapo> troy_s: uhm?
<troy_s> nothlit: Yes... those photos were taken by the art director (whom i know)
<troy_s> lapo: Not everyone is vinyl zealot.
<lapo> troy_s: the same recording objectivelly is better sounding then a cd which the right equipment
<troy_s> TheSheep: Still depends on your cabling to your brain lol.  BRAINPHILES UNITE!
<nothlit> lapo: there are high fidelity optical formats beyond 'cd' lol
<troy_s> lapo: The Naim guys might disagree.
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> nothlit: yeah sure
<lapo> troy_s: the Naim guys will surelly agree, believe me :-)
<nothlit> troy_s: rofl--don't wander into the cables argument
<troy_s> nothlit: Lol.
<lapo> troy_s: ask to any audiophile if he prefers a cd of a vynil and see :-)
<nothlit> pfft original tape ftw ;)
<troy_s> nothlit: Sorry, my buddy knows two high end cable company owners... so he gets all sorts of stupid priced 60,000$ per linear foot type samples to try.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ever seen the Blickenderfers typewriter?
<troy_s> lapo: I know many
<troy_s> lapo: I work in the film industry remember -- I have guys who spend their entire lives listening and build careers around it.
<troy_s> lapo: And again, it varies from person to person.
<lapo> troy_s: if they think a cd sounds better then a vynil they should really be fired :-)
<TheSheep> http://www.acmqueue.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=98 <-- certain usability expert on audio cabling :)
<troy_s> lapo: And MANY prefer digital to vinyl.  In fact, I know of one academy award winner and one emmy award winner who would lose it on the Vinyl argument.
<lapo> troy_s: digital, not cd :-)
<troy_s> lapo: One was a big believer in analog tape too... he verted.
<troy_s> oh lord...
<troy_s> um.
<troy_s> hello?
<troy_s> DaC?
<troy_s> Anyways, off-topic for this guys head.
<lapo> troy_s: cd = 44.1khz
<troy_s> in the end, its all a relative mess, and for the large part, the audience doesn't deal with the techy ramblings of the crazies.
<lapo> 16bit
<troy_s> super... its still digital.
<troy_s> Mozart used only M-audio stuff.
<TheSheep> troy_s: no vinyl? ;)
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, digital but too few "details"
<lapo> troy_s: sacd or dvd-a are another thing
<TheSheep> I sometimes think what Mozart of Bach would think of the modern music
<troy_s> Play back say, the ABC theme and you will probably find a visceral response to the audience that has heard it before despite vinyl, digital, guitar, piano, etc.
<troy_s> sacd is shit.
<lapo> yeah, fscking propreitary format
<troy_s> anyways, again, content is generally looming larger than the delivery system
<troy_s> in fact, the delivery system, if it is shitty, is also aesthetcially beautiful.
<troy_s> Like the tinny 30's music in The Shining
<troy_s> or the scratchy world war 2 disks played back on a crappy turntable.
<troy_s> all have merits, and all are 'better' given certain circumstance, context, audience.
<lapo> sure, anyway I lost the point of the conversation totally :-)
<lapo> TheSheep: speaking about LSD, how can you make it? :-)
<TheSheep> lapo: google it
<troy_s> lapo: Just go buy it.
<troy_s> lapo: Its cheap.
<TheSheep> lapo: but you don't really need it
<troy_s> lapo: Lol.
<troy_s> TheSheep: BLASPHEMY
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> eheh
<TheSheep> lapo: everything is in the head, with a little effort and meditation you can get yourself into the same state without any chemicals
<troy_s> psilocin, mescalin, and delysergicacid are almost all identical
<troy_s> _almost_
<TheSheep> lapo: getting out is another thing
<troy_s> and arguably, as someone who has done a fair share of all, they have the same impact on your brain.
<troy_s> (although again, some people look at the context and somehow think that mushrooms do different things because they grow out of the ground etc.)
<troy_s> (silly)
<lapo> TheSheep: ok, I'll switch to the stripy theme and meditate
<troy_s> lapo: Lol.
<TheSheep> lapo: that'd kill you
<troy_s> lapo: You might surprise yourself.
<troy_s> TheSheep: And that meditation argument is just plain bong.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: Sorry, but many chemists agree that he halucinagens are the most powerful drugs around.
<TheSheep> troy_s: of course
<troy_s> (ugly 'many chemists' wording i know, but...)
<lapo> fsck troy_s, you require a lot of en-it dictionary use! :-)
<troy_s> lapo: Have you tried the halucinagen tribe?
<troy_s> LOL
<TheSheep> troy_s: it takes years of practice and hours of chanting to get yourself into the same state :)
<troy_s> lapo: Sorry... they are all I have to work with UNLIKE SOME OF US.
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> troy_s: nope
<troy_s> damn dual speakers.
<troy_s> lapo: wow.
<troy_s> lapo: I would never state that anyone should do drugs
<troy_s> but i would argue that
<lapo> troy_s: halucinagen tribe?
<troy_s> an entire few artistic movements were built around a halicinagen backbone
<lapo> I don't think we have that over here :-)
<troy_s> SPELLING SUCKING
<troy_s> lapo: tribe?
<TheSheep> good morning, I'd like to buy some of that INSPIRATION tablets you sell...
<troy_s> lapo: Culture.
<troy_s> WOOP
<lapo> troy_s: ah, got it :-)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Try painting on them!
<TheSheep> troy_s: paint them black
<lapo> troy_s: I think you was asking if I ever tried some sort of drug, lol
<troy_s> lapo: Lord Byron / Shelly and Shelly are exemplary of the Romantics, and they were notorious halucinagen users.
<troy_s> lapo: Yes.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm fucked up enoygh without any chemicals, thank you ;)
<lapo> troy_s: yeah yeah, I know the romantics
<lapo> eheheh
<troy_s> lapo: I was asking if you tried any of the well known 'members of the family'
<TheSheep> troy_s: some teenager might be reading it
<troy_s> TheSheep: Eek.
<TheSheep> troy_s: yo know the wannabegreatartist type...
<lapo> troy_s: joints when youger, that's all my drugs experience:-)
<TheSheep> besides, it's offtopic on freenode, afaik
<troy_s> lapo: I have always found everything except the halucinagens to be a complete waste of time
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: Really?
<troy_s> wow...
<TheSheep> troy_s: yes
* troy_s zips it.
<lapo> troy_s: I'm colorblind I don't think I'll see all the colors with halucinagens stuff :-)
<troy_s> lapo: You might be suprised lol
<TheSheep> lapo: that has nothing to do with your physical eyes
<troy_s> lapo: To end this before we get klined off freenode -- there is nothing that even comes close to describing the experience.  They are _very_ powerful, and you really get to see what a human mind can do when it loses all the restraints of filtration.
<TheSheep> lapo: that'd explain those icons...
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> LOL
<lapo> eheh
<troy_s> oh feck i almost pissed myself.
<troy_s> hey lapo
<troy_s> on a serious note
<lapo> TheSheep: read the documentation attached
<troy_s> i suppose you fall into the 15% of users
<troy_s> (which is also subdivided into 'classes')
<TheSheep> lapo: ooh, docs! I never noticed them! I love docs!
<lapo> 15% of male users, and 0.04% of females
<troy_s> would you be able to design a palette that works for people with the same eye acuity as yourself?
<troy_s> lapo: Forgive me, but 15% divides up into different classes too yes?
<TheSheep> lapo: lovet he todo ;)
<lapo> troy_s: yep, protanope, deuteranope, tritanope
<nothlit> troy_s: that palette tool you posted also simulates colorblindness lol
<lapo> troy_s: and all the variations in the middle
<troy_s> nothlit: Yes... the colourscheme tool?
<troy_s> nothlit: Its pretty solid that way.
<troy_s> colorscheme2
<lapo> troy_s: for me every palette is good, the point is that I see some port of the double :-)
<lapo> part even
<troy_s> some part... but not a whole
<TheSheep> bah, I had a nice paper on optimal palettes for web
<troy_s> which makes me think that there must be a palette combination that 'maximizes' your tonal range perception.
<TheSheep> but they redesigned the site and removed it
<troy_s> TheSheep: ColorScheme 2
<troy_s> you can download it.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It rocks.
<troy_s> and it actually uses a mathmatical approach to palette backbone selection
<TheSheep> http://www.lighthouse.org <-- they had it here
<TheSheep> troy_s: you know this site? http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/wcolor.html
<TheSheep> troy_s: some great articles there
<TheSheep> troy_s: on the phisiology of color
<lapo> troy_s: yes, but it will not ook good
<troy_s> pulling that wiki page down -- everyone interested has seen it yes?
<TheSheep> aye
<troy_s> lapo: Um
<troy_s> lapo: I mean good for the audience it is chosen for.
<troy_s> lapo: As in, if you perceive the colours differently, i bet they pair up differently from your vantage.
<TheSheep> lapo: you just need to keep hititng people with a rubber chiken on top of their skulls until they gree it looks good
<nothlit> yup
<lapo> troy_s: choose one from light yellow, light green and light orange, choose one from dark blue and dark purple, choose one from deep green and deep brown, you get the idea? :-)
<troy_s> So its contrast based or hue?
<troy_s> as i don't see the pattern, no
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's more complicated, eye doesn't see in RGB
<TheSheep> or HSV
<lapo> troy_s: it's combination of things you cannot just say hue or saturation
<TheSheep> lapo: actually you can measure it
<troy_s> TheSheep: Gee thanks.
<troy_s> TheSheep: The eye is non linear which makes it a bit tough.
<lapo> troy_s: colors with a lot of red and a lot of green in their composition are problematic usually
<TheSheep> http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/color3.html#colorimetry
<lapo> TheSheep: not really
<troy_s> TheSheep: Although with me trying the colorscheme2 generator, i see bugger all differences really lol
<lapo> uhm I had an url about colorblindness
<lapo> here is it http://colorvisiontesting.com/
<lapo> there you can get an idea of what this curse is :-)
<troy_s> http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html
<TheSheep> somehow I never had trouble with selecting colors
<troy_s> lord...
<TheSheep> don't know why
<TheSheep> I had my sites tested by colorblind people and they never complained
<troy_s> lapo: So you are what percent?
<lapo> troy_s: difficult to tell
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't think one should design around colour blind folks... and theoretically
<troy_s> TheSheep: If you use PROPER
<troy_s> TheSheep: palettes, you alleviate the need to worry as the palettes are mathmatical
<lapo> TheSheep: just not fscking color code stuff!! :-)
<troy_s> and aside from analogous
<troy_s> you are save
<troy_s> safe
<TheSheep> troy_s: I didn;'t design around them, I just tested it to see if I don't build uneccessary barriers
<troy_s> lapo: Color coding should be ok if applied consistently.
<troy_s> lapo: Inconsistent sucks ass.
<lapo> troy_s: I don't know why I hate colorcoding :-)
<troy_s> lapo: And the old 'let's make it xxx because it means yyy' crap
<TheSheep> color coding is hard to design consitently anywyas
<troy_s> lapo: I think color coding is a critical element to everyone assuming you apply it consistently.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not at all... you pick your color early on and associate it with an action
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's totally dependent on culture :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: The reset is Pavlovian repeat.
<lapo> troy_s: coorcoding alone is a barrier for colorblind people
<lapo> troy_s: the only real barrier
<troy_s> TheSheep: no.  CODING, not that intuitive color psychology mumbo jumbo.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's still cultural if you want it aestetic at the same time
<troy_s> lapo: Well assuming you choose your colors to meet the nature of the eye (whatever colour blindness one suffersfrom)
<TheSheep> troy_s: people from north tend to hate saturated colors, for example
<troy_s> lapo: One could assume that you can distinguish between the, say, 3 different tones
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would assume when you build a palette you are using some degree of culture :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hence a properly design palette :)
<lapo> troy_s: I distinguish a lot of tones, but it's fscking hard, eventually I can disting problematic color but I need to put a lot of concentration and obervation
<TheSheep> troy_s: but some elements are more universal than others
<TheSheep> troy_s: and colors are totally culture-dependent
<lapo> for me it's not just a zap to get colorcoded stuff if even possible
<lapo> look at the picture at the end of this page
<lapo> http://colorvisiontesting.com/what%20colorblind%20people%20see.htm
<lapo> for me those 3 have only slight differences in saturation
<troy_s> TheSheep: Ixne on the universay!
<TheSheep> hah
<troy_s> lapo: Yep.  But that is sort of what I am asking
<troy_s> lapo: There must be a 'set' of good colour combinations that exhibit solid contrast between the various elements for you.
<TheSheep> troy_s: substance is above the fashins ;)
<lapo> troy_s: It's difficult to say which the colors are tho :-)
<nothlit> lapo: do one of those simulated pictures look exactly like the 'normal' to you?
<troy_s> lapo: Have you played around with a palette and grabbed swatches that work for YOU
<lapo> nothlit: nope
<troy_s> lapo: Because I would love to see the swatches that work well together.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's different for everyone
<lapo> troy_s: I don't play around with palettes, I let others do it, and most importantly I need named colors! :-)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Erm... within the classification of color blindness there are pretty well 'zoned' ranges.
<troy_s> lapo: Bugger that!  I mean strictly for you.
<TheSheep> troy_s: but then you can have some of this and some of this
<troy_s> lapo:  I could give a rats ass if it looks like complete rainbow hell to an 'average' sighted person.
<troy_s> for example
<TheSheep> troy_s: even people who are not colorblind see colors differently
<lapo> troy_s: sure, but If i choose color I will probably get a very strange mix
<troy_s> lapo: When you think of a trees / grass do you think of the colour us 'normal visioned' people call green?
<troy_s> TheSheep: I know!
<troy_s> TheSheep: DAMN YOU
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lapo: I don't give a damn about strange
<TheSheep> troy_s: :-*
<troy_s> lapo: In fact, it is exactly what I was hoping for... as long as it WORKS for the given audience.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hell... my yellow isn't your yellow isn't blah blah WELCOME BACK TO EINSTEIN!
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> troy_s: nice example, when I was a baby I used to draw the tree with the brown and green in the wrong way :-)
<troy_s> Let me state this and get it out of the way:
<troy_s> "EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS RELATIVE EXCEPT THE SPEED (not color!) OF LIGHT"
<TheSheep> troy_s: it may interest you that there is no such thing as violet or pink physically -- they are illusions :)
<lapo> troy_s: nope, my yelloe is your yello, but your green is my yellow even :-)
<troy_s> lapo: That's _EXACTLY_ my point!
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: so are the grey patches inbetween grids of black.
<troy_s> Perception is all that matters to the individual however.
<TheSheep> troy_s: but you're not designing for aliens
<troy_s> If you steer out of the way to avoid the pink truck and get crushed by the oncoming car, what matters?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yes... humans are aliens.
<lapo> troy_s: well if the car is a nice one is a pitty :-)
<troy_s> TheSheep: And indeed, what does the US call people from other cultures?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Think about it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: jumping spiders have 4-chromatic sight :)
<troy_s> lapo: Anyways... I might hit you up with a text 'test' and see what you do...
<nothlit> omgs thats freaky--with no green or red those swatches look exactly the same http://www.iamcal.com/toys/colors/
<troy_s> lapo: I would be interested in seeing if there are patterns.
<troy_s> nothlit: This is ... revolutionary to you?
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> troy_s: ?
<troy_s> i need to macro that damn relativity line.
<troy_s> lapo: Well just the old what means what to you in terms of colour
<troy_s> lapo: If you could somehow avoid falling back on what you have 'learned' through repetition
<TheSheep> troy_s: no need, I'm shutting up
<troy_s> lapo: It might be interesting to fuckign quash the age old argument about color psychology.
<troy_s> TheSheep: BAH... I don't want you to shut up. lol.
<troy_s> TheSheep: But you clearly have done your share of LSD in your time.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I can spot it a mile away.
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> troy_s: at least in the topic of relitivity :)
<lapo> hey guys stop talking about halucenogens or send me sample! :-)
<TheSheep> troy_s: never did drugs of any kind
<troy_s> TheSheep: I guess what becomes more painfully clear living in a 'global society' is how different folk's perception is.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Really?
<troy_s> lapo: LOL.
<troy_s> What is even more funny is the more 'global' we get the more we insist on the 'RULES' of certain things.
<TheSheep> troy_s: my father slept 4 days after one pill of anesthetic -- I don't want to risk it runsi n the family ;)
<troy_s> When in fact, the inverse is totally true.
<troy_s> EEK
<nothlit> troy_s: no--its just scary
<troy_s> nothlit: In what respect?
<troy_s> nothlit: Maybe that is exactly why people want to simplify
<troy_s> nothlit: You could be spot on...
<TheSheep> the more communication, the more variety we *discover*
<troy_s> I guess into the mix of what is 'the right thing' in any given aesthetic decision, we run into greater walls than just say, context/culture/communication
<troy_s> we run into the Apple factor
<troy_s> the 'iMCool"
<troy_s> and the variant the "iWantToBeCool'
<TheSheep> troy_s: geeks are immune
<TheSheep> troy_s: at least the asocial aspies
<troy_s> which, like it or not, tends to influence aesthetic choices.  Liking things that other people like or think they like.
<lapo> TheSheep: lol
<nothlit> TheSheep: ---geeks want to attain total geekdom...
<lapo> TheSheep: that's way a lot of our softwares looks ugly :-)
<TheSheep> and become enlightened
<troy_s> (which is probably the root of that evil fecking BLUE brigade in OS land -- "It's soothing", "It creates less strain on the eyes" *sigh*)
<nothlit> for them, thats the aspiration of cool
<troy_s> lapo: That is more selfishness... creating for the 'me' factor 'at this particular moment'
<lapo> troy_s: that blue buse sucks, yeah
<TheSheep> nothlit: no, that's the ultimate goal of everythig in the universe :)
<nothlit> vista green is soothing :)
<troy_s> lapo: Blue is cooked like dinner.  We are supposed to be artists... not fucking 'lets do a remix of blue'
<lapo> nothlit: ah was that green? :-)
<TheSheep> beige rules!
<troy_s> lapo: I can only imagine what a Picasso or Pollock would have to say regarding the 'dark ages of operating systems' we live in.
<lapo> troy_s: I tried to persuade the xubuntu guys to go with green and dark gery istead of ight gray and blue but with no success :-)
<TheSheep> troy_s: so. many. shapes. droooll
<troy_s> And we really are in the dark ages when we have screenshots like osdir.
<troy_s> lol
<nothlit> troy_s: well developers wanting to follow ui rules don't have the comfortability to stray beyond blue
<troy_s> lapo: That is because I believe the 'art director' firmly believes in the HOKEY and COMPLETELY FALSE colour psychology crap
<TheSheep> lapo: we are very attached to the 'offciail' color scheme
<troy_s> nothlit: Since when does the evolution of human tools have ANYTHING to do with 'staying inside'?
<TheSheep> troy_s: oh, he wrote *articles* about his color theory :)
<troy_s> nothlit: It works great to pinch off ONE work -- perhaps something like a palette.  Then you move on.
<lapo> troy_s: I think that's a fault of our "design by community" (artistical design here) you have to please way too many people so you get the most trite stuff usually
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lord.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I started off prior to University with a very clear thinking regarding palette theory.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Then it was broken.
<nothlit> btw, i think brasero is beautiful in its simplicity
<troy_s> To quote a zen quote:
<TheSheep> troy_s: for example, saturated color are soothing because that's waht dominates on evenings
<troy_s> Prior to zen -- men were men and mountains were mountains.
<troy_s> During my study of zen -- men were mountains and mountains were men.
<lapo> TheSheep: official?
<troy_s> After I completed my studies -- men were men and mountains were mountains.
<troy_s> It is such an apt description of what happens when you start discussing art and design without any care or attention to ALL of those figures that have come before you.
<lapo> I think color teory is crap, anyway having convenctions about color usage is ok
<nothlit> TheSheep: evenings? i'd say saturated colors come into play when theres more light involved lol
<troy_s> colour theory is not crap -- colour psychology is!
<troy_s> lol
<nothlit> less light = less colour
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, that's what I wanted to mean :-)
<troy_s> colour theory is nothing more than the 'blending' of notes. :)
<troy_s> lapo: Amen my brother.
<nothlit> lapo: don't you dare diss color theory!
<lapo> yeah, my poor english got in the way
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lapo: Any chance you would contribute to a community theme?
<lapo> nothlit: I couldn't live w/o rgb, believe me :-)
<lapo> troy_s: sure if it's tango styled and I have time :-)
<troy_s> lapo: You seem to be able to crank out icons at a fast and frenzied pace -- even perhaps moreso if you work on a project that is 'strictly get it out the door'
<troy_s> lol
<nothlit> lapo: i think in subtractive colors :) :P
<troy_s> lapo: You are tangozombied.
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> nothlit: yeah, subtractive syntesis
<troy_s> nothlit: Paper fool.
<nothlit> rofl
<lapo> troy_s: all the way!
<troy_s> nothlit: Additive colour only here thanks.  FILMgeek.
<TheSheep> nothlit: that's not *mine* theory :)
<troy_s> lapo: How come no one has generated a tango metacity / gtk / wall / etc. yet?
<nothlit> there is
<lapo> troy_s: you want to tell me that the sum of all colors is white, fool! :-)
<nothlit> theres an unofficial tango theme on gnome-look
<troy_s> lapo: Unless on paper.
<troy_s> lol
<nothlit> i think its linked to on tango.freedesktop.org even
<troy_s> lapo: Then it is a brown muck
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> troy_s: with thos we restyled crux and it's kinda tango style (widgets, not the metacity theme)
<troy_s> lapo: Actually, there is a cool way to trick that into additive light theory -- put a rainbow around a wheel and spin it at a VERY high speed and you will avoid the pigmentation offshoot brown muck -- you will get the white.
<troy_s> lapo: That's too bad... because in my mind an icon's set is solely to work on an aesthetic level
<troy_s> lapo: and that means it needs the support case.
<troy_s> (as in the rest of the shit)
<lapo> troy_s: icons are tools
<troy_s> TheSheep: There was also a whole branch of theory that said that black was death
<troy_s> TheSheep: Because when shit dies it blackens
<troy_s> TheSheep: Then someone went 'oops... what about xxx other culture'
<nothlit> lol
<lapo> troy_s: I try to do a good looking tool, but it have to do it's work basically
<troy_s> TheSheep: Its all rubbish in the end...
<nothlit> not over here it isnt
<lapo> its
<troy_s> nothlit: Exactly.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Colour psychology, no matter how fecking much reason it seems to show (which is why people THINK it exists) is completely bunk.
<troy_s> I only cite the top down lighting bias when referring to WESTERN art viewer.
<troy_s> as it is truly a learned thing for them.
<troy_s> but as soon as you pull out of mainstream westernized art, it falls apart.
<troy_s> (I seem to remember a study of artworks in the Louvre and the a few other museums that had something ridiculous like 75% top left lighting.)
<troy_s> (hence _learned_ westernized art viewers)
<lapo> troy_s: leave caravaggio alone! :-)
<troy_s> by learned i mean
<troy_s> if you grew up watching north american tv or anything
<troy_s> not 'educated'
<troy_s> bugs bunny uses the bloody compositional elements from westernized art.
<troy_s> dare i say that an 8 year old viewer of television has a pretty good idea of 'learned westernized art composition'
<lapo> troy_s: fsck, you're too difficult to understand at hald past eleven! :-)
<lapo> half even
<lapo> anyway I think my english is improoving eh :-)
<troy_s> lapo: Its damn good actually
<troy_s> i will say it is nice to see this channel discussing some of the loftier artwork notions...
<troy_s> as from those lofty things come some very real world byproducts.
<lapo> troy_s: not good enough to get your sentences easily, I'd say :-)
<troy_s> lapo: That's my crappy sentence work.
<TheSheep> beware, anime strikes recently
<TheSheep> westernized composition becomes passe
<lapo> troy_s: nnaah, you're speak in an erudite way
<lapo> TheSheep: it's funny how in japan they try to westernize thier design and how here we do the reverse
<TheSheep> lapo: OneBigSoup
<lapo> I think at the end we will get in the middle
<TheSheep> the world is starting to be divided orthogonally to how it was
<lapo> yeah  :-/
<TheSheep> into geeks, suits, otakus, atc.
<TheSheep> etc
<TheSheep> soon we will have hobby wars
<TheSheep> people interested in certain thing forming nations
<lapo> ahah
<troy_s> lapo: There is a cool bit of study done on Japanese westernization of 'sexy'
<TheSheep> ugh
<troy_s> lapo: And a very cool study on animation villians...
<TheSheep> troy_s: gaguro? :/
<troy_s> Relating to how for example, Disney tends to make the villians very 'ethnic' with cliche'd archetypal traits.
<TheSheep> ganguro, sorry
<troy_s> And the 'heroes' are 'westernized'
<lapo> boring
<TheSheep> troy_s: anime was based on western cartoonsi n the first place
<lapo> I think walt disney will not be happy to see how borig their stuff is getting
<TheSheep> lapo: you think they'll ever thaw him? ;)
<troy_s> lapo: It certainly has zero 'avant garde' elements left...
<nothlit> eh-- western animation studios that attempt japanese styles fail horribly in general imo
* lapo looks for thaw in the dictionary, fsck! :-)
<troy_s> lapo: Considering he really pushed for Fantasia.
<troy_s> (which was a rather avant garde project at the time)
<troy_s> nothlit: Maybe because they are imitating.  lol.
<TheSheep> nothlit: animatrix had some nice attempts
<lapo> TheSheep: eheh
<troy_s> "You are just a copy of an imitation."
<nothlit> but anime, and animation in general actually is based a lot of disney work--the 7
<troy_s> What is that very apropos line from Pearl Jam...
<troy_s> Uh...
<TheSheep> troy_s: Pearl Jam also had some broken anime-like cartoons in their music videos, as I recall :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Erm the Evolution video?
<nothlit> i wonder if korean studios will end up getting writing talent and end up doing everything ;)
<lapo> take some nice animation mix it with catholic moral, remove elements which can get even one single person in the world upseat and you'll have disney stuff :-)
* TheSheep uses this occassion to shamelessly plug Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou http://misago.org/ykk/
<troy_s> TheSheep: Bear in mind that they have made a statement by avoiding music videos -- those were almost all done by the studio.
<troy_s> lapo: Or UBUNTU!
<nothlit> lapo: a lot of children get scared by disney films
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> In relation to the 'make sure you do something that won't please anyone but offends as few folks as possible'.
<TheSheep> troy_s: there is the Christian Edition...
<lapo> troy_s: uhm, not really, the brown and orange are bold and avantgarde (hence a bit poo like) :-)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Woop.  I'm applying for art director right now...
<troy_s> lapo: Only in execution.  And the brown is only different.
<nothlit> lapo: orange as a warm and sun theme have been done quite a bit
<troy_s> lapo: The brown is different for difference sake -- a shitty reason behind a palette.
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, but it's different at least
<TheSheep> oransun is very nice, especially with green background :)
<troy_s> The orange is the byproduct of a fuckign botched design process.
<nothlit> brown can do many things--i don't get the big association with waste
<lapo> troy_s: it's against the blueosness
<lapo> what an ugly neologism
<troy_s> No palette.  Icons by xxx, wall by yyy, no cohesive design strategy == right where Ubuntu is now.
<TheSheep> troy_s: the end result is what counts :)
<lapo> troy_s: that's the problem
<troy_s> lapo: Not against actually -- it was an accident from sepia photos actually.
<troy_s> lapo: I know this because I actually asked and got the responsed.
<nothlit> i like IconFactory's work for ubuntu though :)
<troy_s> response.
<lapo> troy_s: solution: tango palette, tango style icons, wallpaper retouched by myself or other tango guys, tango styled widgets and windows decorations! :-)
<troy_s> The brown was SOLELY because HeWhoShallRemainNameless wanted sepia toned photos (although probably very realistically not having a clue about the term 'sepia')
<troy_s> lapo: Ugh.
<troy_s> lapo: I couldn't think of a more aesthetically bankrupt path than where they are now :)
<TheSheep> tentacle porn!
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> eheh
* TheSheep hauls some live sepias on the scene
<nothlit> lapo: wth- tango is not something with any defined character...
<lapo> nothlit: I can do a tango style theme with all the character you want :-)
<troy_s> agree.
<lapo> nothlit: tango style is a tool
<nothlit> exactly
<TheSheep> hmm... I could do some theme based on Giger for Ubuntu release dubbed Cthulu Fthagn
<troy_s> lapo: And that is probably its shortcoming.
<troy_s> Woo
<troy_s> TheSheep: That would be sleek
<troy_s> TheSheep: In a sky black polished rounded case.
<nothlit> its a set of guidelines and a selection of not overdone colors to establish a consistent interface workable in a variety of environments
<troy_s> with a tiny spackle of red in some obtuse corner.
<lapo> troy_s: probably, but we need these tools to have some sort of coherence in oss software jungle
<nothlit> not anything else :P
<TheSheep> troy_s: I don't actually like giger as a theme, too disturbing to concentrate on the work :P
<troy_s> lapo: Make no mistake -- I think tango is the first project to actually TRY and address the issues.
<troy_s> lapo: And for that, it has extreme merit.
<TheSheep> troy_s: how about oxygen? (or whaddaya call them)
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would suggest you need a Giger 'styled' wallpaper -- his bits are a tad busy and contrasty probably for standard walls.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Oxygen is the most aesthetically bankrupt set of shit that I have seen.
<troy_s> It works perfectly for KDE -- of the same lineage.
<TheSheep> troy_s: my main problem with giger is that the proportions and curves he uses have strong sexual flavour to me :/
<troy_s> TheSheep: Gee -- you don't say?
<troy_s> TheSheep: How astute!
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
<TheSheep> lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: Ever read lovecraft?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
<TheSheep> troy_s: sure, but lovecraft is not indecent :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: kind of innocent, actually
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is actually exactly why Giger's stuff is a tad past 'contemporary pop'
<TheSheep> troy_s: I wonder if it would have sexual flavour also for different cultures?
<troy_s> TheSheep: My guess is a stern no.
<troy_s> TheSheep: As that sexuality thing is culture centric (gee -- there is a shocker)
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, *parts* are instinct...
<TheSheep> reminds me of these birds, of the same species but different regions, that couldn't understand their songs
<TheSheep> then again, some immersion and bah! you enjoy oriental art
<troy_s> well yeah
<troy_s> as soon as your force the context upon yourself, you get understanding
<troy_s> which is why when someone looks to say, historical art work, it is very difficult to get the point...
<troy_s> take Warhol for example
<troy_s> everyone sees the soup can
<troy_s> without seeing the context of 'art as being highbrow gallery' work
<troy_s> which he quickly said 'oh yeah?' to.
<troy_s> and formed a new movement.
<TheSheep> then again, maybe not all oriental art... http://pinkurocks.typepad.com/pinku/2004/05/ganguro.html
<TheSheep> never understood Warhol, tbh :)
<nothlit> TheSheep: is she trying to make herself look like a powerpuff girl lol?
<TheSheep> nothlit: not fun, that was a real fashion in Japan two yers ago
<TheSheep> years
<TheSheep> nothlit: shows how silly fashions are when viewed from outside
<TheSheep> (otoh, it's probably as extreme as our goths)
<TheSheep> troy_s: now, let's for a short moment just assume that KDE also has its own aestethics, just you're not familiar with the context?
<TheSheep> troy_s: that'd explain why the KDE crowd considers gtk ugly
<TheSheep> and apples
<lapo> TheSheep: I don't really want to go in gnome vs kde debate since I'm a user of both, bt if gtk is ugly I could say the word keramik :-)
<nothlit> both (unthemed)gtk and qt are ugly
<troy_s> TheSheep: last time i checked KDE and GNOME were ugly.
<TheSheep> nothlit: they were works of art 5 years ago
<TheSheep> nothlit: I remember a friend sighing when seeng the first win95 screenshots
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's because you come from the mac context
<troy_s> TheSheep: Blasphemy
<TheSheep> \o.
<TheSheep> troy_s: Thank You
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't like apple at all... they place value on design however, and for that reason alone, i grudgingly give them props.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's not like the others don't place value on desgin -- they just come from different axioms
<troy_s> TheSheep: True enough.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Let me rephrase...
<troy_s> TheSheep: Apple puts a good deal of their money into the traditionally educated approaches to art and design.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Owing to a vast history of art and design through the ages... :)
<TheSheep> the one close to your understanding of it :)
<TheSheep> since you deidcated quite a lare part of your life researcing it
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-05-05
<TheSheep> now, for the question: how many people are out there equally dedicated to the history of art? and how many of them already are happy with their macs? :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Well... I didn't exactly want to.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I just realized that at some point, if you are dedicated to a craft, you should probably do as those that have followed before you did and get your knocks in.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I think the folks are happy with their macs.  That said, that comes from a direct relation with the folks who design their macs.
<TheSheep> once, when I was very bored, I spend a totally unproductive morning arguing with a windows zaelot about how ugly is windows
<troy_s> TheSheep: The folks who do the work.
<TheSheep> he was blind to my arguments :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yep...  its just like arguing art.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would like to think however, that Ubuntu art and design could theoretically ride on the bloody tidal wave of growth and form a sort of synergy
<TheSheep> then again, if we aim at a certain population, we maybe shouldn't really go all high art and aesthetics? :)
<troy_s> creating the 'PLEASE MAKE WINDOWS LOOK LIKE UBUNTU' screams as opposed to 'make windows look like mac'
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't think high art has anything to do with it.  Aesthetics certainly.  Contemporary?  Certainly.
<TheSheep> make ubuntu look like my car, tv and bed
<troy_s> TheSheep: In a perfect design world, I think we would look back on Ubuntu say, 5 years from now with this 'fictional design' and go -- god what were we thinking?
<troy_s> THAT, for me, is the ultimate test of contemporary design.
<troy_s> If it really feels 'dated' for a given pattern, you probably hit the nail on the head.
<troy_s> Good art and design is like food.
<troy_s> A twinkie can sit on a shelf for 16 years and still taste like a twinkie.
<troy_s> Ralph Feenies cooking tastes good for about 5 minutes from prep, and starts to spoil thereafter.
<lapo> there was a theme proposed for edgy which was quite brilliant, we could get some inspiration from it
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots
<troy_s> TheSheep: What am i looking at?
<TheSheep> troy_s: screenshots of various old guis
<troy_s> http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/riscos12
<troy_s> THAT is where we need to GO
<troy_s> RETRO
<troy_s> !
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> troy_s: actually, system 4 seems to have much cleaner interface than macosx
<troy_s> TheSheep: System4?
<TheSheep> except for some vintage vocabulary: note "insertion point" instead of "cursor"
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/macos42
<troy_s> Yeah a little uh... pedantic
<troy_s> Flat.
<troy_s> Not that i mean 3d ... but ... square.
<TheSheep> what can I say, I'm geek too ;)
<TheSheep> but clean and cruft-free
<TheSheep> except for a lot of unnecessary lines
<TheSheep> the thick 3d frames are really passe now, but they were sooo coool back then
<TheSheep> beos always had the nicest icons
<lapo> re
<troy_s> well that was fun
<TheSheep> ugh
<TheSheep> how much did I miss?
<nothlit> troy netsplit too--nothing
<troy_s> super neat
<TheSheep> beos had a lot of work put into user interface
<nothlit> beos is still alive lol -> haiku
<troy_s> TheSheep: Link for be shot from that page?
<TheSheep> troy_s: you won't like it :) http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/beos5.png
<TheSheep> troy_s: win95 took a lot from it
<troy_s> it is just an era really ...
<troy_s> not much to like or dislike
<TheSheep> I think that with this resolution and number of colors, they made several miracles
<TheSheep> 16 colors, for gawd's sake
<troy_s> TheSheep: more colours has less impact
<troy_s> !
<troy_s> TheSheep: That's the whole bloody point of a palette
<TheSheep> yes
<troy_s> For example:
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's why beos looked so great with a custom palette, not the default vga one that takes colors from all the color wheel
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> http://plasma.kde.org/
<troy_s> talk about a dated design
<troy_s> lol lol lol
<troy_s> by the time that thing is released it will be following trends that are ala windows 3.1
<troy_s> or at least look that way
* TheSheep shrugs
<TheSheep> troy_s: I think that back to system4 is the way to go
<TheSheep> troy_s: of course, with current technology
<TheSheep> troy_s: rounded corners, gradients, etc.
<TheSheep> troy_s: noticed that tere is still no proliferation of gradients in ui design?
<TheSheep> troy_s: it starts in www a little
<TheSheep> especially "web 2.0"
<troy_s> Its official 2.0 is dead
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> it was a zombie from the start
<TheSheep> troy_s: looking at the author's photos and sites, I don't put much hope into that plasma project
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> now thats funnyshit
<TheSheep> at least they do something
<TheSheep> I really regret that displays are gotting so hi-res
<TheSheep> pixel art is dying
<TheSheep> nobody creates icons and window decorations pixel-pushing anymore :(
<TheSheep> games all use 3d
<TheSheep> only cellphones and game boy left
<troy_s> TheSheep: Shut yer mouth.  I bloody well used to do graphics for games in an era where I had to draw it on graph paper then translate it into a hex table BY HAND.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't regret progress in that respect.
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> troy_s: I did that too and I miss it
<TheSheep> troy_s: somehow, the amount of work you have to put into something to make it work impacts its quality
<TheSheep> heck, Knight Lore has amazing graphics even today
<nothlit> TheSheep: we get to be creative in a different way now, nothing wrong with that
<troy_s> Erm... You should still put planning and thinking and work into things even when you have the chainsaw.
<TheSheep> troy_s: but that;s not happening
<troy_s> TheSheep: You can thank all the digital 'artists' out there who put a fecking lens flare on a bevel and poof.
<TheSheep> troy_s: people used to re-read their papers 10-20 times when they had to pay for printing them -- now they don't even correct typos on blogs
<troy_s> TheSheep: If it is any note -- I know at least three high profile art types who throw resumes into the garbage as soon as they spot a canned effect.
<troy_s> TheSheep: It influenced me so much that I avoid them like the plague... if you want a lens flare, draw it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: but that's normal -- you lower the barriers, you let "amateurs" in
<troy_s> Well just MORE of the stuff to sift thorugh.
* nothlit wonders how big peoples brush libraries are rofl
<troy_s> uck
<troy_s> brushes.
<troy_s> effects... nasty
<TheSheep> no, because people don't care and the medicore stuff sells as well
<troy_s> the best work i have seen come out of the digital world has all been hand crafted shit.
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's one advantage of gimp over photoshop -- they have similar features, just you have to make your own precanned effects in gimp
<troy_s> TheSheep: Unfortunately there are a lot of them
<nothlit> TheSheep: theres lots of precanning in that comes with gimp
<troy_s> Aside from a blur, you shouldn't be allowed to use anything lol
<TheSheep> troy_s: somehow, the sweat that pearmetes a work, shows
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's what Pirsing calls Quality
<nothlit> i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-canning
<TheSheep> nothlit: you can always spot it, it's just a question of enough training
<TheSheep> that's why I hate 3d animations in cartoons so much
<TheSheep> they are sooo jarring
<TheSheep> and cheap
<TheSheep> doing them right takes more work than drawing them by hand
<nothlit> .. if i used the cloud effect as a base, and complete painted over it. you could spot that?
<TheSheep> nothlit: depends on how much your work would be over it :)
<TheSheep> nothlit: but then you could have started with white background as well
<nothlit> i'm just theorising lol
<nothlit> i said completely
<TheSheep> well, then it's your work
<nothlit> anyways, filters are often used as sources for random data to further shape
<TheSheep> not automated effect
<TheSheep> sure, I often useplasma for that
<nothlit> thats what i meant lol
<troy_s> <nothlit> i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-cannin
<troy_s> that's the trick
<TheSheep> but you can't make anything meaningful just juggling filters
<troy_s> if you are using canned shit and you can see it, you aren't using it very well.
<TheSheep> you need to paste some whotoso from images.google.com too! ;)
<TheSheep> s/whotoso/photos
<TheSheep> :/
* TheSheep untangles his fingers
<TheSheep> well, thank you guys for the chat, good night
<troy_s> Ditto.
<troy_s> MUST shower
<troy_s> nothlit: Hit me with that poll stuff and I'll plop it in when I get showered.
<TheSheep> troy_s: save some sweat to permeate your works ;)
<nothlit> troy_s: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/literature/concepts.html --its in there
<troy_s> nothlit: I'll put the poll up now and notify you
<troy_s> nothlit: then you need to post to the ml and the forums
<nothlit> we have an art section in the forums?
<nothlit> troy_s: hmm if have a forums section we could put the poll up there--that way more than just the art team can vote?
<troy_s> nothlit: art and design i think
<troy_s> nothlit: Anyone on lp can vote
<troy_s> erm ... art team i guess.
<troy_s> nothlit: anyways... how long should the vote run for ?
<nothlit> can we lose 5 days to do this?
<troy_s> 5 seems long... 3?
<troy_s> The problem with the mailing lists is that people who have digests get boned.
<troy_s> but ...
<nothlit> we can go with 3--i'm just afraid we won't have enough
<troy_s> then we go longer
<nothlit> the digests aren't a worry imo--those 100 are prolly less interested and less likely to vote anyways
<troy_s> do you want to go a week?
<troy_s> okie... so... how long can you keep interest up for 3 days?
<troy_s> if so...i'll set that.
<nothlit> nah thats too long
<troy_s> it is, after all, an easy thing to do.
<troy_s> vote
<troy_s> so...
<troy_s> 3 would give everyone plenty of time
<nothlit> kk
<troy_s> aight...
<nothlit> troy_s: is http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 it? its not more general?
<nothlit> i'll post it there as well if so
<troy_s> nothlit: Just tell the buggers to vote on LP
<troy_s> nothlit: One central area is a 'good thing' lol
<nothlit> thats more closed though
<nothlit> this is one area that the general public <can> definitely contribute in on
<nothlit> not so with the palettes and the rest
<troy_s> You know what really cracks me up... the guys who insist that Gimp is unusable and yet generate total bong.
<troy_s> with the commercial tools
<troy_s> nothlit: Sure... we can always add but then you get double the votes...
<troy_s> nothlit: Which is why lp is superior for voting..
<troy_s> nothlit: And the art team is wide open
<troy_s> nothlit: Hell.. its the REASON for the team
<nothlit> i actually find gimp is more usable as a general paint tool (as in brush brush brush--not ms paint) than for regular photoshop stuff
<nothlit> gap is pretty nice though
<troy_s> nothlit: I am dropping 'building'
<troy_s> nothlit: Not to mention that the multi window works better in current environments.
<troy_s> nothlit: Building is roughly equal to creation
<nothlit> actually-one great sketching/design tool in terms of usability is Alias Sketchbook Pro
<nothlit> its pen based
<nothlit> *nix doesn't have much in terms of pen uis
<troy_s> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art/+poll/ua-community-theme-poll
<troy_s> can you see that?
<troy_s> nothlit: inkscape is one helluva good sketch tool
<nothlit> Voting hasn't opened yet
<nothlit> The vote will commence in 1 hours
<troy_s> nothlit: The more I use it with a tablet the more I love having the ability to edit my strokes.
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> i'll paste them
<troy_s> For a community theme, we'd like to choose some formative words for the yet untitled project. We hope to design around the words - possibly with a motif as a result - for a central theme. Please be aware that our plan is to forge the the two most voted words into a single concept. After the words are chosen, we hope to vote upon a palette that works to support the motivating words.
<nothlit> I prefer traditional sketching where theres multiple strokes :)
<troy_s>     * Choice: The community theme should have choice as a central thematic. (active)
<troy_s>     * Collaboration: The community theme should have collaboration as a central thematic. (active)
<troy_s>     * Contribution: The community theme should have contribution as a central thematic. (active)
<troy_s>     * Creation: The community theme should have creation (non Biblical) as a central thematic. (active)
<troy_s>     * Friendship: The community theme should have friendship as a central thematic. (active)
<troy_s>     * Progress: The community theme should have progress as a central thematic. (active)
<troy_s> nothlit: I did... but editing strokes after the fact is pretty darn handy
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nothlit: I can honestly say that Inkscape is great for developing such things.
<troy_s> If you are happy with that...
<nothlit> I'd rather erase the unwanted lines/redraw over
<troy_s> you now have the link
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nothlit: I just scrabble craploads and delete them
<troy_s> then 'tweak' the ones that are darn close.
<nothlit> otherwise it feels too stiff for me
<troy_s> it is pretty effective...
<nothlit> ahh lol
<troy_s> nothlit: Have you tried inkscape with the tablet and tremor?
<troy_s> it is total 'wow'
<nothlit> I'm of the school where you draw as many lines as it takes to get it right :)
<nothlit> Its interesting
<troy_s> nothlit: I generally draw till it is right, but the nice thing is that you _can_ tweak the original lines that you started with.
<troy_s> nothlit: Ok... so thats the poll in place
<troy_s> 1hour till open time
<troy_s> Post on forums and list.
<troy_s> and I suppose we see what interest there is.
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> 3 days
<nothlit> great :D
<troy_s> so it opens in 1 hour and closes in exactly 72
<troy_s> (if my math isn't stinking lol)
<troy_s> ok... i must go buy water.
<troy_s> (sadly)
<nothlit> lol
<troy_s> nothlit: Side notes:  It is set up with SECRET VOTING and no SPOILS.
* nothlit thinks safeway water is the tastiest in the world
<troy_s> (this isn't (or shouldn't) be terribly political.
<nothlit> I don't drink plain water otherwise :)
<troy_s> nothlit: It is damn hard for me to buy water living in Vancouver.
<troy_s> nothlit: Flood coming potentially.
<troy_s> yay!
<troy_s> nothlit: So post away oh fearless one.
<troy_s> The forums ARE important
<troy_s> many people don't yet know about LP, so please post there as well.
<nothlit> troy_s: i'm trying to find what you suggested to include with my posts
<troy_s> Just say 'hey a poll...'
<troy_s> keep it simple
<troy_s> and just say that we will be trying to generate a palette from it...
<troy_s> (which is also in the poll question)
<nothlit> ahh
<troy_s> If anyone starts down the 'why isn't xxx word on there?' i'll squash it
<troy_s> it takes folks to step up to do the shit
<troy_s> I suppose at some point it requires addressing...
<troy_s> the 'hey let's face it this is for a north american / european styled audience'
<troy_s> but until it crops up... perhaps we leave it alone.
<troy_s> nothlit: Also stress that the Forums will be kept abreast of the votes if this thing develops, so they CAN have a say.
<troy_s> nothlit: Okie... I'm off for a bit.  Chunder at you soon.
<nothlit> troy_s: kk
<troy_s> nothlit: You will also probably want to subscribe to the community thread you start
<troy_s> nothlit: As then you can answer questions / etc.
<nothlit> rofl, the forums went offline exactly after i posted
<troy_s> YOUR FAULT
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nothlit: Progress?
<troy_s> yharrow: Get out of your coma and vote.
<nothlit> troy_s: huh? i posted to the mailing list and forums less than two hours ago
<troy_s> oh good you did the forums?
<troy_s> nothlit: The poll should be open.
<nothlit> troy_s: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2594561
<troy_s> you subscribed?
<nothlit> yeah
<troy_s> nothlit: Good stuffs.
<troy_s> nothlit: Again, its a game of hot pokers at first.
<troy_s> nothlit: lol.
<troy_s> nothlit: You been watching the implosion?
<troy_s> http://rlove.org/log/2007050401.html
<nothlit> troy_s: wow no
<troy_s> nothlit: That might just well be a killer blow.
<troy_s> nothlit: Novell will always be able to hire with the cash infusion, but whether it can garner street cred is another.
<troy_s> nothlit: I wonder how long until jimmac evaluates his cred versus his cash.
<troy_s> darkmatter: I need you
<darkmatter> ?
<troy_s> darkmatter: What is the pixmap stanza to change the bloody arrows in the toolbar?
<troy_s> shadow = IN
<troy_s> works on all arrows in scrollbar troughs
<troy_s> but for some reason
<troy_s> when I click on the arrow in the toolbar
<troy_s> it defaults back to the engines.
<troy_s> so i am ... lost.
<darkmatter> hmmm... I cant remember offhand... just a sec... me diggeez around for a theme that handles itproperly
<troy_s> and i noticed that it appears that some have that overlay file (for example the steppers in the scrollbars) OR you can go about defining the arrows (different look slightly of course)
<darkmatter> I usually use overlays... gives me more consistant placement of the arrows in widgets
<troy_s> well i am trying to lay down some broad strokes
<troy_s> 'catch alls'
<troy_s> as you could bloody knock off a theme for an entire lifetime
<darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/PlatinUm?content=33112  <--- may be ugly but handles toolbar arrows nicely, just take a looksee at the gtkrc
<troy_s> if you worry about the little bits.
<troy_s> there are a few good themes out there
<troy_s> spherecrystal has some good learning code
<troy_s> and another -- neutronium
<troy_s> neutronium's code is cleaner
<darkmatter> troy_s, yeah... I started rebuilding Glory this morning... and if you use the pixmap engine you could work your way up t a 10mb rc trying to get it right :P
<troy_s> yep
<troy_s> although i am going with svg on omst
<troy_s> in fact, thus far, whole.
<darkmatter> cool
<troy_s> but the arrows in metacity seem to be better rendered to bloody png first... sadly.
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> wow...
<troy_s> darkmatter: So this guy does his stanzas with overlay_files
<troy_s> for the arrow
<troy_s> which means you could theoretically have TWO layers on every arrow
<troy_s> the file
<troy_s> and the overlay_file
<troy_s> which poses some interesting options
<darkmatter> yup.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Ok... got it.
<troy_s> what the hell is the arrow in the toolbar??!?!?!
<troy_s> it appears as a HANDLE in bloody platinum
<darkmatter> the look yeah... he just reused the same pixmap methinks
<darkmatter> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/52050-1.jpeg <-- very old build... but thats why I like overlays
<troy_s> darkmatter: Which is fine, but i need to know what the hell controls that arrow in normal themes
<troy_s> (normally it is an arrow)
<darkmatter> the combo entries and option and combo crap in general were misaligned n looked like shite until I switched to using overlays
<darkmatter> ahhh
<troy_s> darkmatter: I need your superior skills working on GTK for me.
<troy_s> damn you
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> I bloody do.
<troy_s> This crap drives me completely bonkers.
<darkmatter> I'll need toi dig around a bit.. I've dozens of themes installed that I hate.. but each does something right with the widget handling
<troy_s> I am a bigger picture guy who ends up rebuilding the bloody engine.
<darkmatter> I just need to find a decent reference
<troy_s> Which is not only slow for a guy who has no clue
<troy_s> but also pointless when it comes to overall design.
<darkmatter> never bothered to really tackle the arrows before
<troy_s> darkmatter: Damn you.
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> darkmatter: See I am close to entirely liking what you have there... as in I would build off of it.
<troy_s> darkmatter: But the problem is that certain elements need to have a 3D / real world element to them
<troy_s> One being buttons -- minimalist like mist.
<troy_s> the tabs are perfect rounding
<troy_s> as long as they dont have that hideous trend in clearlooks with the line of colour along the top / edge.
<darkmatter> I'm still trying to figure out how to skin the pathpare seperately from the toolbar in nautilus.. I've found an engine thaat does it... but the code is a mess and trying to find the references is a pita
<troy_s> i bloody wish you would work on other projects... grr.
<darkmatter> yeah... the clearlooks tabs suck
<troy_s> in fact, morning is darn close to what i need as a base from that screenshot.
<troy_s> the troughs are pills though for what i require
<darkmatter> troy_s, I'm working on plenty... problem is I'm extremely picky when it comes to look n feel
<troy_s> and the buttons needs to be less clearlooks 'flat' and more mist 3d minimal.
<darkmatter> I'll rebuild something a dozen times over trying to makr a one pix line go bye bye
<troy_s> yeah i know... you have ocd
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> which is why i would love you to extend your wings and just 'pinch the shit off'
<troy_s> as in perhaps help out on a project that doesn't have your bloody heart and soul wound up in it.
<troy_s> just work from a union worker point of view.
<darkmatter> true
<darkmatter> that might work
<troy_s> Lord... I would find someone to give you hummers all day.
<troy_s> Sure, it might be a guy with no teeth, but SOMEONE.
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> See you have the ability to get the 'whole' look going.
<troy_s> Which is what I need.
<troy_s> badly
<darkmatter> so... what is this current beasty yer trying to fix??? any screenies?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Wtf is tinz?
<nothlit> troy_s: how'd you get the grungness on your floral pattern in inkscape?
<troy_s> nothlit: Canned effect ;P
<nothlit> grunge*
<troy_s> nothlit: Uh... tremor / tablet / and by hand on a more serious note.
<nothlit> ahhh
<troy_s> nothlit: Union the strokes, difference them from the source strokes.
<troy_s> Then redo per layer
<nothlit> i always do clipping--nondestructive but not very nice to the computer
<troy_s> nothlit: Actually clips tend to bulk up the time in my experience... but that might have changed.
<troy_s> nothlit: The other problem is that the clips need to be released etc.
<troy_s> nothlit: Actually, come to think of it, every stroke in the wall and gdm base (not on bzr yet) were entirely constructed by hand.
<darkmatter> troy_s, TiNZ is Not Zen
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> not helping me darkmatter
<troy_s> wtf is that?
<nothlit> wow--are there really 4 pixmap engines? http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkEngines
<darkmatter> it a desktop project I was working on until the "helpers" just. vanished.
<darkmatter> it was about user experience
<darkmatter> desktop consistency
<darkmatter> first class crap
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nothlit: Only one really.
<troy_s> SVG is non existent to the best of my knowledge.
<troy_s> eXperience is... well ... not exactly 'there'
<troy_s> and crux is... hell i don't know about crux.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Can you push your revision of Glory to bzr so that some people can build off of it?
<troy_s> darkmatter: As in me.
<darkmatter> lol... once its ready :P
<troy_s> What percent of the bits are covered
<troy_s> Bugger that
<troy_s> it will NEVER be ready
<troy_s> just pinch it off.
<darkmatter> no.. I mean the revision... havent set up bzr on this install yet.. dont want to stop gimping atm :P
<troy_s> christ.
<troy_s> darkmatter: OCD!
<nothlit> ocd ftw
<darkmatter> troy_s, keep that up and I'll have to pay BHSPitMonkey to spank you with a.... nm
<darkmatter> ;O
<troy_s> eek
<BHSPitMonkey> pardon?
<darkmatter> ask troy_s, he's being naughty *shrug*
* darkmatter glues halo to head
<troy_s> darkmatter: bzr or die.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Is glory at 100% in terms of coverage yet?
<darkmatter> close
<troy_s> (by coverage I mean elements)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Do you think you could bzr it for me?
<darkmatter> soooon
<darkmatter> troy_s, think the shadow on the buttons is a bit much? http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484764319&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o
<troy_s> not really, although i find the outline a bit deceptive as it is constant
<darkmatter> hmmmm... ok
<troy_s> darkmatter: Know what I mean?  It is almost as though if you are going to 3d them a bit, that the outline needs to be subject to light.
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> (again, my guts are against the outlines because they trigger clearlooks response syndrome in me)
<troy_s> lol
<darkmatter> lol... give me a bit.. all I did was hack up some buttons and change the bg color :P
<troy_s> darkmatter: I would also err on the side of top left.
<troy_s> darkmatter: The tabs look great.
<darkmatter> okey dokey... I'll play around a bit with the lighting later.. need to colorshift everything to those mor tangoish hues... and fix the scrollbars
<darkmatter> thnx :)
<troy_s> nothlit: Any feedback on the forums?
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.paulgraham.com/goodart.html <-- this may be a little more agreeable for you :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: That appears fare more thought out.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Although he still seems to try and dismiss relativism as though he needs to.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Then goes on to prove it... *sigh*
<troy_s> TheSheep: Although he is certainly prone to trying the old
<troy_s> TheSheep: Criminology approach from the dark ages -- fall back on physiology.
<troy_s> TheSheep: What he fails to consider is that his 'human brains are wired to find faces engaging' is rubbish.
<troy_s> TheSheep: He seems to avoid several complete art movements ranging from Dadaism to German New Wave to Impressionist...
<troy_s> Etc.
<TheSheep> troy_s: so, you say he lacks experimental material :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is what I keep saying when people bring that crap up -- "If that's the case, it is simple for everyone to follow a procedural approach and deliver absolutely perfect work in everyone's eyes."
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not exactly... just a little art history would prove how much complete fallacy he is standing on.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Art isn't stagnant... it has a shelf life largely determined by context and culture.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ah, but not everything must be good in the same way
<troy_s> TheSheep: For example, while you might find Andy Warhol's work wonderful, you are completely missing the context that it was originally intended and delivered.
<TheSheep> I find it boring and completely stupid :)
<TheSheep> probably because of the lack of context ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Leni Riefenstahl's work is completely lost in context etc...
<TheSheep> troy_s: music is the same
<troy_s> TheSheep: The simple act of viewing an object out of context changes its perception.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Take John Water's when he hung beef and ribs off of that guy's unit in Pink Flamingo's -- it makes it funny.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would agree.
<troy_s> TheSheep: How many folks understand the 'Musical Joke"
<TheSheep> or whisky :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Heck... if we were to be really silly -- if we made up a mock gui with plastic glossy shiny apple gelly things EVERYWHERE
<troy_s> TheSheep: It would be quite funny to us -- overdone.
<troy_s> TheSheep: But in 10 years, it is quite possible not many would get the 'joke'
<TheSheep> Vista Fhtagn is funny
<troy_s> TheSheep: But I think that link you provided has him heading in a 'better' direction...
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's much more recent
<troy_s> TheSheep: For example:  ""What would make the painting more interesting to people?"
<troy_s> TheSheep: That's a horribly westernized bit of writing.
<troy_s> TheSheep: What you realize when you study art from that sort of vantage is that we as western folks are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY culture centric.
<troy_s> TheSheep: So much so that we are deluded into believing that EVERYONE thinks like WE do.
<TheSheep> troy_s: Taoists or Zen buddhists also tend to suggest that there is "one goodness"
<troy_s> TheSheep: And it doesn't take a genius to realize how off base this one is:  "For products of nature that might work. I'd be willing to eat the apple the world's population had voted most delicious"
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lol... sure after you make your way all the way to the top of zen, whatever that ends up being... ;)
<troy_s> Something about nothingness.
<TheSheep> argh
<troy_s> TheSheep: He is obsessed:  "I wrote this essay because I was tired of hearing "taste is subjective" and wanted to kill it once and for all. Anyone who makes things knows intuitively that's not true."
<TheSheep> zen pervades everyhting, so it's best visible when there is nothing else but it ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, total rubbish.
<troy_s> TheSheep: You can't argue that point and hope that any reader will take you seriously.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's a little different in mathematics or physics
<troy_s> TheSheep: He is some strange freak that is trying to force some residue agenda he disagreed with in art school or something.
<troy_s> TheSheep: ABSOLUTELY
<troy_s> TheSheep: But even then
<troy_s> TheSheep: We all know
<troy_s> TheSheep: Everything is relative
<troy_s> TheSheep: Math too falls apart as soon as you move the vantage
<troy_s> TheSheep: And try to reconcile it somehow against the other.
<TheSheep> troy_s: ho so?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Well... just look to anything involving calculations below the speed of light.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Or mix measuring units.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Etc.
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's not math
<troy_s> TheSheep: Everything in math is relative to the vantage from which it is preached.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Everything only holds true if you _stay_ within the given paradigm.
<troy_s> TheSheep: In the end, how fast is the ball moving when A throws it to B on trains?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Is it moving at all?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Get my point?
<TheSheep> troy_s: no
<TheSheep> troy_s: that has nothing to do with math
<troy_s> TheSheep: Erk!
<troy_s> TheSheep: That has everything to do with math.
<troy_s> TheSheep: You are missing the implied audience if you don't see it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: the fact you have wrong model desn't mean you have wrong math
<troy_s> TheSheep: Person A throws ball at 10 kms towards Person B on a train travelling 60 kms.
<troy_s> TheSheep: How fast is the ball travelling?
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's physics, not math
<troy_s> (Ultimate question ends up being relative to what)
<troy_s> Still math.
<TheSheep> troy_s: and more about perception, again, than physics
<troy_s> One plus one = ?
<TheSheep> no, e^i*pi-1=0 is math
<troy_s> Even that one depends on what you are talking about -- the vantage / perspective.
<troy_s> BUT 1 ITSELF IS RELATIVE!
<troy_s> Eek.
<TheSheep> the point of math is that you *alwasy* have the perspective well-defined
<troy_s> It is one of the reasons that Einstien had such a problem with "Spooky action at a distance" -- he simply was unwilling to reconcile certain attributes to his vantage.
<TheSheep> of course 1 is relative -- it's just a symbol
<TheSheep> the point is that the way the symbols interact is beautiful
<TheSheep> and it's universally so, you only have to understand the notation
<TheSheep> but notation is just a question of language
<TheSheep> not math itself
<TheSheep> troy_s: you start with completely arbitrary set of axioms, and you discover that certain things are the same no matter what axioms you choose
<TheSheep> troy_s: and when I say "completely arbitrary", I *really* mean it
<TheSheep> troy_s: you either get something trivial or something that follows certain rules, every time the same rules
<troy_s> TheSheep: And when you say 'certain rules' that is what I refer to as the 'relative' zone.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Needless to say, "Great Art" is deadly simple.
<TheSheep> troy_s: they are not relative, they are always te same no matter what axioms you pick
<TheSheep> troy_s: great math is even more so
<troy_s> TheSheep: It has everything to do with the context and what it does.  Not what it is so much (although that is _everything_ at the time), but what it achieves.
<TheSheep> troy_s: read "Goedel Escher Bach" ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: I have.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hoffsteader is a bright guy, but he also got a lot wrong.
<troy_s> TheSheep: As history illustrated.
<TheSheep> %)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, it is unavoidable.  If you accept the premise that everything in the world is relative except the speed of light, that means _everything_.
<TheSheep> "everybody thinks I'm stupid, what's wrong with *them*?"
<troy_s> TheSheep: Contemporary math illustrates that.
<troy_s> Lol
<troy_s> homer simpson.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't really feel the need to question it -- it appears very much the case.  Hell, the Tao was tapping into that theory 2500 years ago.
<troy_s> TheSheep: In the end, you either embrace it or run around trying to hit some platonic painting of the perfect tree.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Its completely silly.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Art and design has a shelf life.  It can only be extremely effective for a slim timeslice (that might even be shrinking thanks to tech).
<TheSheep> troy_s: you have read that story by Tolkien? :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: 'Neagel's Tree' or something
<troy_s> TheSheep: And that is assuming that it _is_ effective (which it could very well NOT be, especially if you are trying to hit the Platonic ideal of a tree ;) )
<TheSheep> Neagle's
<troy_s> TheSheep: Or waft random ill informed gibberish around like:
<troy_s> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/63
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, while Mark's comment pretty but unusable seems logical, everyone posting to the bloody blog appears to have missed an implied audience.
<troy_s> TheSheep: He basically said 'tastes good but tastes bad'
<TheSheep> skin-deep bauty, lol
<troy_s> TheSheep: And _no_ one caught him out.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Because they too haven't really spent time investigating what the hell pretty MEANS or IS.
<troy_s> TheSheep: The very act of 'being pretty' probably implies that it is 'pretty' on a high level.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Or was he talking about discreet elements?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Its just a rubbish comment.
<TheSheep> troy_s: you're also slapping pretty decorations on top of an ugly building
<TheSheep> troy_s: with these themes
<nothlit> Does he think feisty is pretty?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Also notice that the topic is "Pretty as a Feature" and he can muster up is about three sentences then some completely "what the hell is that about" statements.  Lol.
<TheSheep> troy_s: they can't really change the form
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't think he knows.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I don't think anybody knows
<troy_s> TheSheep: A focus group would answer that question.
<troy_s> TheSheep: And the focus group would most certainly, if I were to bet money, not near a high end of scaling measurement.
<TheSheep> troy_s: but there is a number of well-established scientific methods for optimizing things that work in a way we don't know
<troy_s> TheSheep: (Subject to demo of course... but again... you could probably argue that no demo would rate it highly as there is NOTHING there to rate.)
<troy_s> TheSheep: You know what I will say to that.
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> What the hell does this mean:  "pure, unadulterated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, skin deep beauty."
<troy_s> Does it make ANY sense when you change a couple words to say:
<troy_s> "pure, unadulturated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, wonderful food."
<nothlit> ROFL
<troy_s> tripe
<troy_s> Again, it shows you the limit to which his ability to engage the concept of design lies.
<nothlit> thats what happens when people try to oversell
<troy_s> nothlit: I am having a hard time seeing _anything_ of a statement in any of those comments.
<troy_s> Not to say that I don't like Who's logo -- in fact -- I thought it was the best out of the gate (minus some shitey design direction poked by sab)
<nothlit> troy_s: theres only been one person on the forums btw--but hes added himself to the wiki list and asked how he can get involved, etc
<TheSheep> I don't about beauty, but to sell things you always need well-defined audience :)
<TheSheep> dn't know
<TheSheep> troy_s: anyways, these essays give you pretty much good summary of what average mathematician/scientist/computer geek thinks of beauty :)
<nothlit> TheSheep: nah
<nothlit> imho most of them think its the last thing to be concerned about, but probably don't realise that it makes an impression upon them
<TheSheep> nothlit: it fits the ideas of my university firends, at least
<nothlit> again, in terms of visuals and not technical beauty
<TheSheep> nothlit: good engineer always respects beauty and doesn't dismiss it easily
<TheSheep> nothlit: "technical beauty" translates to visuals
<nothlit> TheSheep: yes, of a different source
<nothlit> TheSheep: and no definitely not always
<nothlit> sort*
<TheSheep> nothlit: can you elaborate?
<nothlit> anyways--one good thing is that sabdfl thinks visuals are important, not just wobbly windows-- even if he disagrees with the community's direction
<TheSheep> could it be he talks about "skin-deep beauty" to avoid long and winding rants about the meanng of art that we are doing here? ;)
<troy_s> nothlit: You have some bloody hard words there to visualize by the by
<troy_s> nothlit: I was giving it thought to execution and there are a couple there that make me shudder...
<troy_s> nothlit: Milk the creative pool... lol
<nothlit> TheSheep: a good engineer respects beauty of course, but of sound structure, ingeniously simple solutions etc, not necessarily visuals (they're not architects)--and things beautiful in that sense--don't always end up looking beautiful in 3d form :P
<nothlit> troy_s: lol, you could have said something-- i would have had no objections in exchanging a few
<troy_s> TheSheep: The long and winding rants are actually pretty simple if I were to state them:  1) Art isn't just 'art' on an island.  It exists in context.  It _does_ something.  2) Art has a shelf life -- it can only do something for as long as something is relevant.  This changes dramatically -- making jokes about George W. Bush have a longer shelf life than making jokes about Michael Richards.
<troy_s> nothlit: No way... I was just commenting.
<troy_s> nothlit: Those are words, and if they can't be negotiated, it has nothing to do with the words and everything to do with ability.
<troy_s> TheSheep: 3) 'Great Art' stands on a platform in a similar vein as 'Great People' -- defining 'characteristics' is completely useless.  One must look beyond the 'individual' to the scope of what they do.
<troy_s> TheSheep: 4) art and design in computer operating systems must inevitably _QUIT_ looking to 'what the guy next door is doing'
<nothlit> Wouldn't a comprehensive look at the individual encompass that scope?
<troy_s> nothlit: But suggesting that there is a 'common' trait amongst those figures is... well... you can guess.
<troy_s> nothlit: Great individuals, much as "Great Art and Design" -- is a byproduct of circumstance.
<nothlit> generalisations always fit to some degree--traits like strong leadership, and a vision are going to turn out people more likely to make a change
<nothlit> but art can be more fluid--but that doesn't mean that their creators haven't dedicated their lives to their art--and evolved greatly etc
<nothlit> there are always still patterns
<troy_s> nothlit: One would hope, but that said, one could expect that there have been countless numbers of people with those attributes -- just as when discussing
<troy_s> art there have been countless people who might be perfect at say -- mimicry
<TheSheep> troy_s: there surely was a countless number of genius violonists in the stone age
<troy_s> TheSheep: Probably that too.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, it really takes a good deal of circumstance.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hell... in fact, arguably, "Great art" is all about the Great Individuals behind the pieces.
<TheSheep> sometimes it's a question of the right people meeting
<troy_s> Absolutely.
<troy_s> Its a strange world... although many view that 'Great Works of Art / Design' are 1/1000000000000 type things...
<TheSheep> many great pieces are *responses*
<TheSheep> in some "artistic argument"
<troy_s> I would probably suggest that they are inevitable at some point.
<troy_s> absolutely.
<troy_s> in fact, that's probably the root of every movement that I can think of.
<troy_s> NO art movement was just 'lets do it for doing its sake' (aside from that "Art for Art's sake" but that too was a reaction/response)
<troy_s> nothlit: It is part of what the design crowd in FOSS needs -- reaction.
<troy_s> nothlit: Not the passive 'mimicry reaction', but the more active -- if this then this.
<TheSheep> not all artists did "movements"
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> Are you talking bowel?
<TheSheep> you're talking about social phenomenon of artists and art society
<troy_s> TheSheep: No, but most artists of a given era participate in a movement -- post modern, modern, etc.
<TheSheep> there are also "lone artists"
<troy_s> TheSheep: Bah.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Pollock types?  Even then, they are embraced as a result of contemporary form.
<TheSheep> arguably, theyir works often start a "movement" later :)
<nothlit> are you saying they live in an isolated world?--people can mimic movements of the past--otherwise--they're starting their own
<troy_s> TheSheep: i would still suggest that it is circumstantial to the 'contemporaries'
<troy_s> TheSheep: Pollack probably isn't much back during the era of Impressionism.
<troy_s> nothlit: And then the nasty mix that pulling influences from the past can have on work.
<troy_s> nothlit: Usually to communicate / state something.
<troy_s> nothlit: The obvious silly ones are often bound to military imagery, etc.
<TheSheep> troy_s: that gives you art that requires a lot of context to understand
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not at all...
<troy_s> TheSheep: The incredible thing is that
<troy_s> TheSheep: ALL contemporary viewers at a given era
<troy_s> TheSheep: Are _very_ well educated -- not necessarily formally trained, and certainly not with the functionality to express reasoning behind pieces or whatever
<troy_s> TheSheep: But they have the 'learned' knowledge to understand.
<troy_s> TheSheep: For example, if you look to movies... prior to music videos a jump cut was a huge shocker
<troy_s> TheSheep: And Goddard 'invented' that form for that very reason.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's a dialog, some lines in a dialog can be understood ripped out of it easily, can stand on their own, but most will change their meaning at best and be completely incomprehensible at worst
<troy_s> TheSheep: Now, with the 'artistic' music videos hitting mainstream in the mid 90's, it is hard to find a viewer that is 'jarred' by a jump cut -- look to 24 -- they flip the axis ALL the time and no one cares anymore.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Completely agree with you on that point.
<TheSheep> troy_s: jump cuts are still a shock to me -- I probably don't watch enough music videos ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: The trickiest thing to do however, is to be the 'Goddard' out there -- to have such a fundamental grasp of the medium that you can warp it to express a message in a new form.
<TheSheep> ah, good artists love their medium
<troy_s> TheSheep: And I would argue that no matter what, that requires a certain dedication to analysis of both your own work and the work of others -- contemporary and historically.
<troy_s> TheSheep: They play them like instruments.
<troy_s> TheSheep: At one point Eddie Van Halen said "What if I do hammer ons for a 'solo'?"
<troy_s> Poof... new form.
<troy_s> I think the real problem is that the innovative is hidden behind what we already know.
<troy_s> So finding a 'contemporary style' is a LOT of hard work actually.
<TheSheep> troy_s: but then there is the "industrial art", the "art of everyday things"
<troy_s> You need to examine a plethora of different bits and see if you can find some sort of trend between some elements.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Believe me, you don't get more artsy fartsy than engineering and architectural art.
<TheSheep> %)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Some architects are more artsy farsty than the biggest of 'artsty types' i can think of...
<troy_s> TheSheep: My good friends father is an architect and he will talk about Goya and you name it in a knee jerk.
<TheSheep> troy_s: programmers do that too
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'd guess offcie clerks would too, if not the brain damage coaused by their work
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's natural
<troy_s> dborg: Have you done any more Lua work?
<troy_s> darkmatter: you know about /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc?
<troy_s> darkmatter: I finally found the link to how to theme the panel PROPERLY, and it doesn't bloody work on Debian.
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: Registered a bug report.
<troy_s> darkmatter: It should.
<darkmatter> cool
<troy_s> darkmatter: Well it is the only way to get full themeability (like rounded corners etc.)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Its bloody frustrating
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: So you don't know of a way to get it working in Debian eh?
<darkmatter> not off hand... I'd need to know what the turds changed in the code, and I really dont feel like digging through diff files atm
<nothlit> troy_s: properly--as in make it fit with the regular background and not look like the menu bar?
<troy_s> nothlit: Yes.
<troy_s> nothlit: as in use the BOX and FLAT_BOX for example in pixmap to change discreet components of it.
<troy_s> Without relying on a panel pixmap kludge
<troy_s> (that won't scale properly, etc.)
<troy_s> nothlit: Basically, without being able to control it's gtkrc components, you can't really integrate it.
<troy_s> nothlit: The only elements you can get from the standard gtkrc are the buttons... the panel itself and the dropshadow etc are all untouchable.
<albi_> That's not true...
<albi_> You can set the panel BG easily
<albi_> I can link you to a theme that does that
<troy_s> albi_: It is true.
<troy_s> albi_: They use cheats - full scale pixmaps.
<troy_s> albi_: That is _not_ the proper way to theme a panel.
<troy_s> albi_: It should be accessed through the gtkrc file controlling the various discreet elements.
<troy_s> albi_: Which is the sole intention of the /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc -- if it worked.
<albi_> What's the point of theming it like that though?
<albi_> Maybe slightly less ram used...
<troy_s> Uh... if you have ever themed a panel you will quickly see the shortcomings of the cheat approach.
<troy_s> albi_: It doesn't scale properly, it doesn't let you control the various elements discreetly, etc.
<nothlit> albi_: you know where the actual mailing list is now right?
<nothlit> troy_s: wow--do you have programmers for your interface proposal?
<troy_s> nothlit: It's mostly python... I have talked to Tonic about doing some coding...
<troy_s> nothlit: If it changes into the '
<troy_s> 'remote control' element, it will probably be prototyped into python
<albi_> What's this about python?
<nothlit> albi_: for a different project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2InterfaceProposal
<troy_s> nothlit: I really hope there is some solid effort that bubbles up with the community effort.
<albi_> The U2 thing seems pretty cool
<albi_> brb
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-05-06
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
<TheSheep> :D
<troy_s> TheSheep: Amen
<TheSheep> lol
<TheSheep> troy_s: I found some interesting ideas and comments about user interfaces: http://haiku-os.org/glass_elevator/rfc/ui
<ra21vi> nothlit: there?
<nothlit> ra21vi: yeah?
<ra21vi> nothlit: so whats development so far? anything decided over the project
<nothlit> ROFL: Painters apply colored goo to cloth using animal hairs tied to a stick.
<nothlit> ra21vi: hmm see the mailing list :) we've decided to start with key words
<ra21vi> nothlit: didnt answer to me/
<nothlit> ra21vi: huh?
<troy_s> ra21vi: Trying to give everyone a chance to weigh in.
<ra21vi> troy_s: what do you mean?
<ra21vi> troy_s: actually, I never gave time to improve my English language, so communication goes worst when someone try to say things not directly, but bend and enriched with more ideas
<ra21vi> I was asking if you people decided over something
<ra21vi> bro, I should tell you something...
<TheSheep> nothlit: otoh the comments about programming and getting laid are false -- I had girls asking for "programming lessons" form queues...
<ra21vi> There are many theme...
<TheSheep> nothlit: but maybe it's worse with lISP
<ra21vi> many people gave time designing something better.. but Individually...
<ra21vi> so, never go that way.. one person thinks better, but when he listens to mass, he knows what actually is in world...
<troy_s> ra21vi: I don't quite understand
<troy_s> ra21vi: are you saying
<troy_s> ra21vi: One person is better than many
<troy_s> ra21vi: Or many people are better than one?
<ra21vi> troy_s: just opposite?
<ra21vi> many are better thn one if working with idea sharing
<troy_s> ra21vi: I agree 100%
<troy_s> ra21vi: That is the nature of Free Software as well.
<troy_s> ra21vi: What is your native language
<troy_s> ?
<ra21vi> troy_s: hindi.. but officially English
<troy_s> ra21vi: The language barrier is probably the most difficult to overcome.
<ra21vi> hmm
<troy_s> ra21vi: Hopefully everyone can figure out methods.
<ra21vi> troy_s: no bro, I was talking something else.. last day you stuck to one things, and I left
<troy_s> ra21vi: Yes.  It happens.
<troy_s> ra21vi: You can blame TheSheep
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> sorry
<ra21vi> TheSheep, why.. I blame to myself too
<ra21vi> I was unable to say what actually was in mind
<troy_s> ra21vi: You will probably get better as you stay around.
* troy_s leaves for the night.
<ra21vi> Fedora guys are working on some new icon and themes. i read somewhere
<TheSheep> ra21vi: Oxygen?
<ra21vi> TheSheep: hhmm, let em check it
<ra21vi> hey, about icon work, ..
<ra21vi> do you like the emblems so big?
<TheSheep> ra21vi: how big?
<ra21vi> TheSheep: that is common, and default in Ubunut and all other distros
<TheSheep> about half the size of the icon itself, right?
<ra21vi> TheSheep: letme make a visual example in Inkscape and load it to show.. just rough mockup
<TheSheep> ra21vi: mine are this big and I like them: http://sheep.art.pl/shot.png
<ra21vi> TheSheep: which terminal font you using? Its clear
<TheSheep> ra21vi: Terminus, the best fornt for terminal ever
<ra21vi> ok
<ra21vi> TheSheep: thunar file manager is better than nautilus, i think.. developers though didnt made many features, but made something good..
<ra21vi> Like in Nautilus, the default emblems are on top...
<TheSheep> ra21vi: I think it's configurable in Nautilus
<TheSheep> ra21vi: the Thunar developers didn't provide options, they made decissions instead -- and usually good ones
<TheSheep> in the end, good design is all about making decissions
<ra21vi> TheSheep: not configurable at users end, but it can be at developers end
<TheSheep> ra21vi: I thought there is an option in gconf for that
<TheSheep> ra21vi: can't check for sure, gnome is long gone from this box
<ra21vi> TheSheep: Oxygen is a KDE icon project... not Fedora
<TheSheep> ra21vi: I thought Fedora uses KDE for the desktop by default?
<TheSheep> ra21vi: so, you mean Echo?
<TheSheep> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoDevelopment
<ra21vi> yeah, its echo icon theme
<TheSheep> doesn't look very consistent
<ra21vi> apart from some sets, its really not good...
<ra21vi> TheSheep: you are right..
<ra21vi> TheSheep: i think, if we have a theme which imitates paper, than it would be good... and simple
<TheSheep> ra21vi: could be interesting -- have all the icons just a sketched drawings
<ra21vi> TheSheep: nah,, i was taking about GTK+ theme, not icons
<TheSheep> ra21vi: well, gtk theme would be mostly all white...
<ra21vi> TheSheep: I remember there is some icon theme, looks like sketched... but doesnt seems better
<TheSheep> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=2&id=44539&file1=44539-1.jpg&file2=44539-2.jpg&file3=&name=buuf+icon+theme <-- I *love* this one
<TheSheep> unfortuanatelly it's not so good when the icons are smaller
<ra21vi> TheSheep: yeah, mostly white.. its not my idea.. just taking from OSx
<ra21vi> my idea is. Desktop is a table, and you work with the papers.. so interface would be paper
<TheSheep> ra21vi: actually a lot of themes go into that direction recently
<ra21vi> TheSheep: like
<TheSheep> ra21vi: removing lines and edges, removing 3d bevels
<TheSheep> ra21vi: murrine for example
<TheSheep> ra21vi: industrial too, to some extent
<ra21vi> yeah... flat background with white.. (I fear it may be straining to eyes)
<ra21vi> ok see here.. http://ra21vi.googlepages.com/Screenshot.png , its about the default emblems in Ubuntu
<TheSheep> ra21vi: a little big, indeed
<TheSheep> ra21vi: have you tried to lookfor an option for that with gconf-editor ?
<ra21vi> in nautilus there is no such, afaik
<ra21vi> i searched
<TheSheep> ra21vi: note that they seem big on the directories, but not so bad on the files
<ra21vi> just, if we make smaller emblems package in icon theme, it would be better
<TheSheep> ra21vi: maybe the problem is with the directory icon being small in the human theme?
<ra21vi> http://www.randelshofer.ch/quaqua/images/quaqua_metalworks.png
<ra21vi> look at it.. the theme resembles paper
<TheSheep> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/MilkyGreen%28Beryl%29+and+MurrinaWhite?content=56047
<TheSheep> (ignore window decorations)
<ra21vi> a little
<ra21vi> Though, paper UI will look much better with shadow, which isnt default in Gnome... beryk compiz still to get stable
<ra21vi> but paper look much better i think.. look at here at web interface
<ra21vi> http://kreattibe.googlepages.com/home.html
<TheSheep> ra21vi: the main problem is that to make that work you need gradients and shadows
<TheSheep> ra21vi: especially shadows
<TheSheep> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/FAF?content=54721  <-- hehe
<ra21vi> TheSheep: shadows, yeah.. otherwise it wont make the object edges
<ra21vi> the FAF is good, lol
<TheSheep> ra21vi: except for bad spacing and too high contrast
<ra21vi> TheSheep: regarding the paper thing i was talking... it only meant for the background.. not all theme widgets in theme..
<ra21vi> Widgets when not in 3d wont look good
<nothlit> lies!
<nothlit> scribble blocked buttons :P
<TheSheep> ra21vi: you don't like the widgets on my screenshot? :)
<TheSheep> http://sheep.art.pl/shot.png
<ra21vi> TheSheep: which one
<TheSheep> note the buttons in thunar's "location bar"
<TheSheep> flat
<ra21vi> its good
<TheSheep> I think the "3d effect" is just an artifact of the requirement to distinguish "active" controls and is easily replaced with prelight
<TheSheep> the fashion is doing a full circle and returns to GEM-like buttons
<nothlit> ugh
* darkmatter sees mention of GEM and hides in corner
<troy_s> TheSheep: 3D does more than that.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I believe the basic idea behind it is that it is interactive.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Compare it to the shite outlined buttons in Clear/everything
<troy_s> greets elkbuntu How goes uds?
<elkbuntu> troy_s, awesome. spain is a damn weird country though
<troy_s> the BoFs done for the first day?
<troy_s> elkbuntu: How many folks at that one?
<elkbuntu> troy_s, last one currently on
<elkbuntu> dunno how many people are here today
<troy_s> elkbuntu: How many BoFs are you going to attend?
<elkbuntu> troy_s, i think i'm signed to 4 specs, but no idea how many BoFs that will involve
<troy_s> elkbuntu: Did Scuttlebutt give a decent opening speech?
<elkbuntu> troy_s, he didnt land until 10
<elkbuntu> troy_s, so he missed doing one this morning, but i'm guessing he'll make up for it tomorrow morning
<troy_s> nothlit: Any progress?
<troy_s> nothlit: How much time left in the poll?
<nothlit> Nothing new on the mailing list or forums--prolly about a day--launchpad isn't giving me hours and i'm not sure of the timezone of gmail, etc
<nothlit> btw have you ever heard of the Munsell Color Wheel? i never read anything about it before I peeked into pastel forums
<nothlit> troy_s: this is neat http://lisalichtenfels.net/pages/technique.html
<troy_s> nothlit: Reminds me of those pickled old people heads from about 190
<troy_s> 1980
<nothlit> i can't believe people can do that with fabric :o
<yharrow> hey guys
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-28
<DanaG> Oh hey, is there a preferred response position for the mailing list?
<DanaG> Reply below, or reply above?
<_MMA_> Below is generally the norm.
<DanaG> Thanks.
<_MMA_> Is easier to read. Better for continuity.
<DanaG> I saw this joke once:
<DanaG> A.  Because it breaks continuity.
<DanaG> Q:  ï»¿Why is it bad to reply above messages?
<DanaG> Well, something like that, anyway.
<nicao> hi
<nicao> sorry for my english , I am not use to chat in english ;)
<nicao> may I asked a question?
<nicao> if it is up to you?
<nicao> I am seaching for the source of the Hardy Heron advertisement... the huge one you can see on ubuntu.com page
<nicao> I would like to translate it in french for the ubuntu-fr.org main page
<nicao> Our page is really "sad" ... not so much pictures, and that s a failure I think
<_MMA_> Link to what you are talking about?
<nicao> the advertising
<nicao> on ubuntu.com
<_MMA_> http://www.ubuntu.com has no ads.
<_MMA_> Unless Firefox is doing something weird.
<nicao> the picture like a flash
<_MMA_> here that is.
<nicao> "building for stability ... builiding for security..."
<_MMA_> Odd. I don't get that here.
 * _MMA_ looks on another box.
<nicao> ok
<nicao> oh thanks
<_MMA_> nicao: In any case, it will most likely *not* be the art guys that have this graphic. kwwii might be able to get it. Best thing would to post to the ubuntu-artwork mailing list.
<nicao> oki
<nicao> good idea
<nicao> I should do that first ;)
<_MMA_> That way kwwii (Ubuntu art nerd) will be able to ask the Canonical guys.
<nicao> oh that s professional work
<nicao> a good job
<nicao> so oki
<nicao> I do that
<nicao> sorry again for my english
<nicao> I am french, and french ... you know...
<_MMA_> Its alot better than most. ;)
<nicao> lol, I hope
<nicao> ;)
<nicao> see you soon
<_MMA_> So no need to apologize.
<_MMA_> k
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-29
<coz_> troy_s, are you avaiable?
<cody-somerville> _MMA_, Whats the dress usually for the UDS?
<_MMA_> cody-somerville: Latex, leather, spikes.
<cody-somerville> Doh.
<cody-somerville> I went to the wrong store then. :P
<_MMA_> Come as you are.
<cody-somerville> So work attire
 * _MMA_ is a metalhead that just wears jeans and metal T's all the time.
<_MMA_> No dress code really.
<_MMA_> It's casual.
<cody-somerville> Well, I went out and bought a new blazer, pants, shirt, tie, shoes, etc. :P so I'll be wearing that the first day atleast.
<_MMA_> Blazer? :) You're gonna be a little over-dressed but that's fine.
<cody-somerville> doh.
<cody-somerville> Dress up with me? :P
<_MMA_> cody-somerville: I don't "dress up". Hell. I wore Chuck Taylors to my own wedding. ;)
<cody-somerville> <g>
<cody-somerville> _MMA_, I dress up to make up for my lack of self-esteem ;P
<_MMA_> haha. Maybe when I can claim you on my taxes. :) Until then, I'm only responsible for my kids esteem. :P
<_MMA_> But all of this is rather off-topic. PM me if ya like.
<DanaG> Metal tee shirt?  Sounds uncomfortable.  :Ã¾.
<thorwil> kwwii: do you know anything about the launchpad logo decision making?
 * _MMA_ waves at thorwil.
<thorwil> _MMA_: heh, fellow champion of list etiquette ;)
<_MMA_> hahahha
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> I don't mind a odd post here or there, but *every* post in very active threads, it's damn annoying.
<thorwil> _MMA_: you really like to stick your tongue out, eh? do you wear black and white face paint?
<thorwil> i kinda found the whole active threads annoying ^^
<_MMA_> hehe. Only for my kids.
<_MMA_> Well the "active" threads over the past  days I really feel won't amount to much in the end sadly.
<thorwil> my point
<_MMA_> Oh well.
<_MMA_> I'm trying to point out ways for people to work that will actually come to something fruitful but looks like the couple of "active" people aren't listening.
<thorwil> if you would like to play with a widget demo, look here: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=530413
<thorwil> _MMA_: i have this feeling that a few of the active list participants are pretty ... young
<_MMA_> Yeah. I hint at it all the time. (well come out and said it a few times) I don't want to kill enthusiasm. Just want to show what I've learned and not have them waste their time. Oh well.
 * nand was following the threads. Whoah. It looks like it's pretty hard to manage an art team...
<nand> Don't you have some kind of guidelines of something, set by a leader?
<thorwil> nand: hi. hint: there's no team
<nand> thorwil: hi! no team?
<thorwil> dare i say: there's no leader
<nand> hmm... that's pretty bad then
<thorwil> nand: i will have a long weekend. maybe i find time for at least scribbles for brainstorm
<_MMA_> Well there is a leader, nobody cares to listen. :)
<_MMA_> So, no team.
<nand> there an canonical art employee, right?
<_MMA_> There is.
<nand> _MMA_: to me, art seems a field where everybody can be both right and wrong, so I understand it can be quite hard...
<nand> thorwil: thanks :)
<thorwil> art is a filed where troy_s is right and most other's are wrong :)
<thorwil> scnr
<nand> ;)
<_MMA_> hahahaha
<_MMA_> thorwil: Don't say that. That will only feed his already inflated ego. ;)
<thorwil> oops
<nand> :)
<thorwil> nand: now actually, kwwii is the man. who would be the one to lead
<thorwil> i don't blame him, though. you have to wonder if it would be worth it - contra doing actual work list dwellers don't see
<nand> Isn't there a place where the rules of the game are set?
<thorwil> nand: as we are right after a release, the game is undefined
<thorwil> nand: that makes it quite a surprise we have active players ;)
<nand> hehe, it seems this release attracted quite a lot of new contributors!
<nand> and - just curious - when are the rules of the game decided so that people can start playing?
<thorwil> nand: here we got to hear: real soon now TM
<nand> I'd like to follow and see how the art team work this cycle
<_MMA_> The rule is: Mark has to like it.
<thorwil> but you never get to see and talk with Mark
<nand> so basically it's a free game
<thorwil> a black box decider for the common people
<_MMA_> Yep. Just by proxy.
 * nand wonders how it would like if our software team was working with no specs... urgh!
<thorwil> right. urgh we have
<nand> and nobody is complaining, or? I guess you tried and hit a wall
<thorwil> or maybe they have. don't know yet :)
<nand> that's too bad
<thorwil> nand: no, didn't try
<nand> why didn't you tried? make some noise and so?
<thorwil> nand: if an actual design briefing, free time and I collide, i'll be in. didn't happen so far
<_MMA_> Just the way it is. My recent advise it to work independent of the thought of it being default. Work with like-minded people in a small team and get something cohesive together. Mark sees art on the wiki for sure. If he likes it, it might make it.
 * nand was already quite annoyed by the "surprise" rules at the end for the Brainstorm logo...
<nand> _MMA_: then this should be made clear to the new contributors, who seems to be looking for some kind of rules...
<_MMA_> But even if he likes something, he might want it changed somehow. People tend to take it personally.
<_MMA_> nand: People don't really wanna hear how it is.
<_MMA_> Hi ï»¿Andreas.
<thorwil> ^ universal
<_MMA_> thorwil: True. They don't realize that if they were paid to do this the client would want the same thing. To change things. So people make what they think is great. They are asked to change things then get mad. Like someone has told them their art is shit.
<thorwil> _MMA_: see, pros are also paid to take the pain! ;)
<_MMA_> Im not saying this is all of the list, just the majority.
<_MMA_> thorwil: Oh totally. But then people have to realize when submitting their stuff for consideration that they could be asked to make modifications.
<_MMA_> If they can't handle it, they fall by the wayside.
 * _MMA_ goes to clean the kitchen.
<nand> and what about something like http://suse-art.org/ to help the team working?
<thorwil> nand: the wiki isn't too bad
<nand> yeah right. It may be a bit easier for outsiders to access the artwork, but that's probably not the priority
<thorwil> there's even the argument that it shouldn't be too easy. just look at digg and youtube comments ^^
<_MMA_> Amen.
<nand> "be open... but not too much."
<nicao> hi
<DanaG> Woah, lots of conversation now.
<DanaG>   A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
<DanaG> Oh yeah, I've noticed something odd with the Gnome slideshow thing: I have a centered image with a gradient background, and it seems like it glitches sometimes when it redraws.
<DanaG> What's this about Launchpad logo rules?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-30
<troy_s> 50 MESSAGES?!?!?
<troy_s> _MMA_: Ping
<_MMA_> hahahaha
<DanaG> <chirping crickets>
<LostOverThere> so...
<coz_> good day all
<coz_> I thought I would resume my logging in to #ubuntu-artwork after some time of absence:)
<_MMA_> hahahahaha. The mailing list ground to a screechin' halt after the "Let's get something done!" post.
<thorwil> today i considered unsubscribing
<_MMA_> I'm this >< close.
<_MMA_> I'm thinking about proposing a moderated ubuntu-artwork-devel ML.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i wondered about rules that could make the list meritocratic
<_MMA_> Thing is, I doubt it would matter to the kids.
<thorwil> seeing how low the niveau, is, the idea of moving to a forum is damn scary. sub-zero
<thorwil> now that you say that, maybe have a forum as dummy-trap? ;>
<_MMA_> It noise would be even greater.
<_MMA_> haha. Would be mean to create something then ignore it.
<thorwil> _MMA_: continued moderation would eat much time. maybe some invite-only scheme?
<_MMA_> thorwil: In the end, there's a system. Kids are ignoring it. I'm at the "Get with it or get out." point.
<_MMA_> thorwil: I don't know if the "invite-only" thing would fly on a Ubuntu ML.
<thorwil> _MMA_: you can't kick people from the list. even asking to leave will be met with a very bad response
<_MMA_> But a modded list can act as a "invite-only". In that your put on a white list.
<thorwil> btw, strike artwork, apparently it's the ubuntu theming list. no response to nand
<_MMA_> It's a little more work but can keep the noise down.
<_MMA_> Im sorry. I don't get what you mean?
<thorwil> _MMA_: the request for some brainstorm artwork
<_MMA_> You're kinda right. Some things are handled outside of Ken or the list.
<_MMA_> But Brainstorm is a community project and the list is the right place to talk about it's art.
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes, i even wanted the request to go there ;)
<_MMA_> But the lack of a response could be because of someone being busy.
<kwwii> hi all, anyone who is interested can come by #ubuntu-classroom to see me make a fool of myself
<kwwii> talking about the basics of the art team, and stuff like that
<thorwil> kwwii: now i am interested ;)
<_MMA_> This should be fun.
 * _MMA_ puts on his hecklers hat.
<thorwil> kwwii: don't forget to explain top posting :>
<_MMA_> hehe
<kwwii> I wish i could top post on an irc channel
<_MMA_> hahaha
 * _MMA_ turns hi laptop up-side-down.
<_MMA_> *his
<kwwii> just come in and ask simple questions to make it look like a lot of people are interested (but not very bright)
<_MMA_> QUESTION: Brown Sux.
<_MMA_> QUESTION: I've done nothing to help Ubuntu art and I don't have a creative bone in my body. Why don't people listen to me and agree that "Brown Sux"?
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I will actually address that
<_MMA_> hahahaha
<kwwii> oh yeah, well, you suck too
<kwwii> so :PPPPPPPPPPPP
<kwwii> you big dumby jerk
<_MMA_> QUESTION: Dont talk to me like that! Have you read the C.O.C!?
<thorwil> that kind of talking would have been so appropriate elsewhere :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Well I did call one guy out on it yesterday. People pull it out like is a friggin' police badge or something. Please.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i think the COC is fucking great, so great it could have a K at the end. so good for throwing it into the ugly faces of stupid jerks ;)
<thorwil> uhm, are children around?
<_MMA_> Oh don't get me wrong, I think it's useful, but damn kids try to use it when they get their feelings hurt or someone shows a strong opposing view.
<thorwil> heh, there we have it
<_MMA_> Artwork chat has started in #ubuntu-classroom.
<bersace> hi everyone
<bersace> kwwii: are you the master of intrepid artwork ?
<thorwil> bersace: he's the master of all ubuntu artwork ;)
<thorwil> and busy in ubuntu-classroom
<thorwil> artwork time in the ubuntu open week
<bersace> thorwil: thx
<thorwil> bersace: just in case you don't know the rules: do not ask there directly
<bersace> thx
<bersace> thorwil: i have to use /msg kwwii ?
<thorwil> nope
<thorwil> go inti ubuntu-classroom chat
 * bersace reads Rules
<thorwil> there prepend QUESTION:
<thorwil> to your question
<thorwil> into, even
<d33d> kwwii, how many are on the "artwork" team ?
<_MMA_> d33d: It's an open team so it could be hundreds.
<bersace> d33d: see launchpad
<d33d> ok ty
<kwwii> d33d: well, there are quite a few people
<kwwii> several hundred
<savvas> the several hundred that are going to fight against the persian army and rule the world!!
<savvas> :p
<d33d> _MMA_, Zelut told me to tell you to sodoff.
<_MMA_> d33d: Tell he owes me a steak.
<d33d> _MMA_, lol k
<_MMA_> gah. *Tell him...
<d33d> I did?
<_MMA_> I mistyped. I just corrected myself.
<d33d> oh
<d33d> lol just read that
<d33d> ha.
<d33d> oh noes!
<Zelut> _MMA_: I owe you a steak huh? :)
<_MMA_> Zelut: Yep. I need my fix.
<Zelut> _MMA_: as I recall you had a steak on me, what, a week ago today?
<_MMA_> 1) That was RedHat's dime and 2) I'm going through withdrawal. :P
<Zelut> _MMA_: pfft. Well I don't have any plans on being out there for a while now. You'll have to make do.
<Zelut> off to squash some bugs
<Who_> Cory?
<_MMA_> Who_ ID yourself so I can PM.
<Who_> I have... I think
<Who_> I'm not on my machine but this client asked me to... hold on
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-05-01
<RzR> kwwii: I started to gather resources about dark themes bugs at http://rzr.online.fr/q/dark I'll keep you informed if it matters
<kwwii> RzR: let me take a look at that, 1s
<kwwii> RzR: that looks like a good start
<kwwii> RzR: I am sure that we can add to that
<kwwii> _MMA_ knows quite a few places
<kwwii> the important thing is that is has to be done in concert with the gnome people upstream or it will never work
<kwwii> much like the 2D panel icon stuff
<kwwii> anyway, I was almost in bed
<RzR> well i am about to go on vacations for 10 days
<kwwii> tomorrow is a holiday here...see you soon
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> holidays are lovely
<kwwii> keep in touch, I think it is an interesting idea
<RzR> i'll think about moving this draft somewhere more appropriate
<kwwii> the wiki would be a good place
<RzR> but it'll takes time
<kwwii> sure
<RzR> well that's a long fight against photons :)
<RzR> but darkness will win it's sure
<kwwii> lol, right
<RzR> jezz
<RzR> i just reported a bug on wireshark
<RzR> and there is a patch already
<RzR> this sound promising
<kwwii> time for sleep here, 2am...see you soon
<RzR> same here
<RzR> CET
<RzR> see ya
<RzR> kwwii: last question ?
<RzR> kwwii: is it ok to forward darkmen here ?
<_MMA_> Who or what is that?
<RzR> darthemes users / bug hunters
<_MMA_> damianvila: You not using Linux? :) Unless ï»¿Miranda now has a nix client. :P
<_MMA_> RzR: "ï»¿darthemes" I'm sorry. I'm not up on that term.
<RzR> we talked about it few hours ago
<RzR> see
<RzR> http://rzr.online.fr/q/dark
<_MMA_> RzR: I think it's best you head up this.
<_MMA_> If you make this channel a point of contact, people should look for you.
<RzR> or other pple intressed into eye candy ...
<_MMA_> Im not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish.
<_MMA_> Just making apps more "dark theme" compliant?
<RzR> yes
<_MMA_> Then you need to be the point of contact.
<_MMA_> Otherwise people will come in looking for answers and people here will have no clue.
<RzR> ok if it doesnt ruin my life i can manage this
<_MMA_> Well then honestly I wouldn't start something and dump it here if you can head it up.
<_MMA_> s/can/can't
<RzR> no actually i dont know if this topic is interessing pple or not
<RzR> and I cant run a irc desk 24*7
<_MMA_> Then I wouldn't make this channel or mailing list a point of contact.
<RzR> but I remove the irc references on my page ..
<RzR> the point of contact is me actually
<_MMA_> Sure. I just said don't make it just the channel. :)
<RzR> it never was
<_MMA_> "ï»¿RzR: kwwii: is it ok to forward darkmen here ?" That implies you wanted to. I just said not to. ;)
<RzR> the job will be fun when pple start complaining  about closed source applications :)
<_MMA_> RzR@#ubuntu-artwork is fine but you said you didn't have the time to be here. So that actually a little unfair to people reading you wiki and to people here. Honestly if you don't have the time I wouldn't start this.
<damianvila> Hi _MMA_ and everybody
<damianvila> No, not on Ubuntu right now. Using XP actually
<_MMA_> damianvila: I loved ï»¿Miranda. I wish I could still use it.
<damianvila> _MMA_: Fact is, when you want to fine tune a CSS, you better have good acces to all the browser engine, and I have it easy using XP for that
<RzR> _MMA_: ok I understand no pb , you might be busy with other project too
<damianvila> Yep. Adjusting some CSS for a popular site here in Spain :-)
<RzR> _MMA_: BTW, I am thinking now, transparents icons on dark background may cause trouble too no ?
<damianvila> So, what's going on here? Do we have the default theme for Intrepid yet? :-D
<_MMA_> RzR: Correct.
<_MMA_> damianvila: I get ya.
<_MMA_> Brown=poop
<_MMA_> Blue WTW!!
<damianvila> lol
<_MMA_> ;)
<damianvila> I have a cool *alternative* idea for wallpapers, but I need to discuss it with Troy first :-P
<_MMA_> pfftt... What does he know.
<damianvila> lol
<damianvila> How's Studio doing?
<damianvila> Gimmmmme the default!!!!!! I want the defaaaaaault!!!!! lol
<damianvila> D-E-F-A-U-L-T
<_MMA_> damianvila: Studio is going well.
<damianvila> Find out what it means to me...
<_MMA_> Kinda takin' a break ATM.
<damianvila> Oh!, cool
<_MMA_> You sir, are not Aretha Franklin. ;)
<damianvila> lol
<damianvila> ;-)
<damianvila> D-E-F-A-U-L-T
<_MMA_> damianvila: We're waiting on the Intrepid stuff to get in place for the technical bits. I have some ideas art-wise.
<damianvila> Take care, kwwii lol
<_MMA_> But not anything solid yet. Ill do that after UDS.
<damianvila> Any hints so far from sabdfl about what he wants (art-wise) for Intrepid?
<_MMA_> Won't likely happen 'till after UDS.
<damianvila> K
<_MMA_> So 3 weeks or so.
<damianvila> Where is it? (UDS)
<_MMA_> Prague
<damianvila> Oh! If they ever make one in Madrid I could attend... :-P
<_MMA_> They did. (I think)
<damianvila> Really?
<_MMA_> Thought so. I'm gonna go to Dublin after Prague to hang out with Luis. (another Spaniard)
<damianvila> Cool
<_MMA_> damianvila: He was that guy we realized was like a block or 2 from you.
<damianvila> I want to travel to Germany sometime. Czech Republic too.
<_MMA_> Germany would be cool.
<damianvila> _MMA_: Oh!, yes, I remember him.
<_MMA_> Yeah. He got a job with Sun in Dublin.
<_MMA_> Well, paid internship rather.
<damianvila> Nice
<troy_s> _MMA_: 67 MESSAGES!  I HATE YOU.
<_MMA_> troy_s: It ain't all me. :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: ITS YOU
<troy_s> _MMA_: YOU KNOW ITS YOU
<troy_s> _MMA_: Not to mention that I swear in two days I have 200 emails with the same subject "STOP TOP POSTING"
<troy_s> lol
<_MMA_> hahahaha. Well. The kids are arseholes. :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well you are one of those kids... So your estimate would be spot on.  ;) Of course, you already know this.
<_MMA_> Pfftt...
<DanaG> Heh, those people complaining about too much whitespace on their panels.....
<DanaG> show them MY panel.  Got not whitespace?
<coz_> so anything new?  what wasnt in hardy is going to be worked on for Intrepid?
<phoenix24_> Hi
<phoenix24_> _MMA_,  ping
<phoenix24_> kwwii, ping
<phoenix24_> Is there a tools that automatically generates the gnome themes ?
<phoenix24_> or one that allows users to customize those imported themes ?
<thorwil> good morning nand
<nand> thorwil: good morning!
 * thorwil is at the drawing board
<nand> is it national holiday day for you too?
<nand> cool :)
<thorwil> jepp
<coz_> good day all
<mysterycool> Hello.
<mysterycool> When ubuntu developers say that we can submit our work, what kind of "work" do they mean?
<mysterycool> I mean like, in what format? Ideas, sketches etc..?
<thorwil> yes yes, that too
<mysterycool> what do u mean that too
<mysterycool> ?
<mysterycool> :s
<mysterycool> What do they exactly want us to submit?
<thorwil> mysterycool: depends on what you want to work on and how far is developed
<mysterycool> hmm, so u mean I could suggest ideas etc..?
<thorwil> mysterycool: you sure can. but you know that basic ideas are cheap and plenty, right? ;)
<mysterycool> erm...
<mysterycool> XD
<mysterycool> and btw, whats the UTC time anyway? :S
<mysterycool> i mean, what timezone does it follow?
<thorwil> mysterycool: it's the zero timezone, the mother, the origin, the center of the timezone universe, where everything starts
<mysterycool> o_O
<mysterycool> u mean greenwich timezone? XD
<thorwil> yes, for all i know they are identical
<thorwil> formerly known as GMT
<mysterycool> yes
<_MMA_> I *think* there is a time of year where they are an hour out of sync but I can't remember for sure.
<mysterycool> hmm
<mysterycool> shoot, lost today's meeting =[
<thorwil> which one?
<thorwil> _MMA_: i would like to punch all the people responsible for daylight savings time :>
<_MMA_> :P
<mysterycool> XD
<mysterycool> :p
<mysterycool> lol
<mysterycool> XD
<_MMA_> Couldn't that have been on 1 line? ;)
<mysterycool> details XD :p
<kwwii> btw, today is a holiday here so I am not around :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: <insert smart-ass comment here>
 * _MMA_ doesn't have his creative wit happening today.
<thorwil> just today?
<_MMA_> Yes.
<kwwii> what is all the talk of _MMA_ having a supposed wit? nonsense!
<_MMA_> kwwii: Aren't you supposed to be drinkin' a beer or something?
<kwwii> I just rode 15 miles on my bike, no thanks on the beer
<kwwii> actually, I just lit the fire in the grill
<kwwii> we gonna have us a bar-b-q :-)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Nice.
<cody-somerville> _MMA_, Did you see my latest blog post?
<_MMA_> I think it's safe to assume if its on Planet most people would. :)
<nand> thorwil: hey, thanks! I answered on the ML
<cody-somerville> _MMA_, :P
<saltedlight> hello :)
<coz_> hello all
<_MMA_> hi
<bersace> :(
<bersace> seems that a lot of people are use to build linux artwork by copying proprietary os policy :(
<saltedlight> :))
<saltedlight> at least they do not use windows tools for that... or am i wrong? :))
<coz_> saltedlight,  for artwork creating?  I use windows tools
<DanaG> Too bad there's no equivalent of "SkinStudio" for GTK themes.
<gaurav_> can i see some of the stuff you guys have created?
<gaurav_> see what i'm up against, heheh
<_MMA_> Some of mine: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork
<_MMA_> thorwil: You done any metacity hacking?
<thorwil> _MMA_: nope
<_MMA_> np. I got it sorted anyway. I needed to remove the app menu usually in the top left.
<_MMA_> ï»¿Can one override button_layout in Metacity with settings metacity-theme-1.xml?
<_MMA_> damianvila: You ever hack on Metacity?
<damianvila> No, frankly speaking, I'm just a designer, I don't have lots of technical knowledge and only deal with technical details if I'm obligued to.
<_MMA_> Ok. :)
<damianvila> I have enough knowledge so as to know what's possible and what not, but I get bored if I delve into technicalities :-P
 * _MMA_ is ï»¿delving into technicalities.
<damianvila> That's why I tend to have lots of friends who know how to code :-D
<_MMA_> Nice resource: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/metacity/metacity-themes.html
<damianvila> Wow!, cool!
<damianvila> Doesn't look too difficult at all.
<damianvila> In fact, I work a lot with XML at my work.
<_MMA_> Makes looking at one you're working with easier to understand.
<damianvila> Yep
<damianvila> You know if it's difficult to add a tab to the GNOME Theme manager?
<damianvila> Like they did with the "Effects" Compiz tab for Ubutu?
<damianvila> *Ubuntu
<_MMA_> damianvila: I think it requires writing C code. Would be a patch to the source.
<damianvila> _MMA_: Oh!, i supposed it involved something like that :-P
<damianvila> Have to talk to the GNOME guys then...
<_MMA_> damianvila: Im really just guessing. :) I wouldnt think it was python or something.
<damianvila> OK :-)
<marcusrussi> where is the website for the theme that's in development?
<marcusrussi> like for intrepid?
<damianvila> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-05-02
 * DanaG goes off and hugs Nodoka....
<DanaG> and notes that that can be interpreted multiple ways.
<DanaG> Oh yeah, and I realized that Fedora's settings for the windeco are actually not the default for that windeco engine, it seems.
<DanaG> I have a different variant from the 'nanolx' repo.
<_segfault_> before I annoy with too many changes....
 * DanaG goes to bed.
<lassegul> hi people. congrats on a fine looking heron
<troy_s> _MMA_: Look at the text files in the readme packages to get settings that don't exist in the docs.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Things like setting the radius of the corners of the windows etc.
<troy_s> Greetings coz_
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy :)
<troy_s> coz_: How have you been?
<coz_> troy_s, not bad . busy..
<coz_> how about yourself?
<troy_s> coz_: Fine thanks.  Little busy.
<coz_> troy_s, I understand.... so is the artwork that didnt make it into hardy going into intrepid?
<troy_s> coz_: What artwork?
<coz_> oh! :)
<coz_> I though maybe some of the things that were proposed for hardy and didnt make it in might be worked on for intrepid
<troy_s> coz_: Doubtful... but maybe.
<coz_> troy_s,   ok
<troy_s> coz_: I have no idea about the plans to change the theme etc.  Personally, in terms of GTK, the look of the widgets are heavy handed akin to Tango heavy handed.
<troy_s> coz_: Aside from that, it is more about the standard sort of 'wrap-the-head-around-what-the-hell-any-design-is-trying-to-do' more than anything else.
<coz_> troy_s, ok  well   I am going to try to stay tuned in on this one... the best I can... see what I can offer
<coz_> troy_s, ooo ok
<troy_s> coz_: Probably wise to try and see what can be done in a smaller team setting.
<coz_> troy_s,   smaller team setting?   could you elaborate on that
<troy_s> coz_: Pick some people that you think you can work with and see if you can generate some magic.
<coz_> troy_s, i see   so  this is the new appraoch?
<troy_s> coz_: No but it is the only method to get anything done.
<troy_s> coz_: In a reasonably organized fashion.
<coz_> troy_s,   that bad  yikes
<troy_s> coz_: And it is the only way that anything has gotten into Ubuntu proper really.
<coz_> troy_s, ok  understood    i will have to look in to the members work then see who is doing what
<troy_s> coz_: Yep.  It's pretty simple -- find someone you think you are on the same level / mindset with, and see if you can generate anything.
<coz_> troy_s,  ok  I will do my best, as i said I would like to stay in touch with this one since most of what is in hardy is not real impressive but I guess that is no surprise   I was hoping for a little more " unph" :)
<troy_s> coz_: Well... hardy is more or less the same as it ever was with a different wallpaper.  Unless I am missing some hundreds of hours of work somewhere.
<coz_> troy_s, :)  i guess thats what I meant
<troy_s> coz_: I have been known to be completely ignorant of things however.  That is all that I can _see_.
<thorwil> i think it was a good decision to have the LTS release end the cycle with basically the same artwork
<coz_> troy_s, I have never seen you as being ingnorant abou things
<troy_s> coz_: LOL.
<troy_s> coz_: Have you been up to any painting or otherwise?
<coz_> troy_s, I have been working in inkscape quite a bit however  nothing that would warrant a view of   so far just experiments etc   other than that I have been doing the support in compiz fusion which has slowed down quite a bit and seeing nothing really  unique  making it into hardy I was dissapointed to the point that I felt I need to at least attemp someting
<troy_s> coz_: Unique is a strange bird.
<coz_> troy_s, yes but certainly a  thing to work towards
<coz_> troy_s,  I can only give it a try see what ideas i come up with  and decide if they are worth submitting
<troy_s> coz_: Indeed.
<troy_s> coz_: In the end, all one can do is try.  Even then, it could very well suck.  lol.
<coz_> troy_s, for sure
<coz_> troy_s,   has anyone come with ideas as to the Look and feel of intrepid
<troy_s> coz_: Gosh no.
<troy_s> coz_: I mean -- gosh yes.
<coz_> troy_s, lol
<troy_s> coz_: But ultimately they are rooted in the garbage 'I think' 'I think' 'I think' 'I think' syndrome.
<coz_> troy_s,  oh geez
<troy_s> coz_: I end up in this strange place where I firmly believe I am an alien.  I just get lost in the cyclic nature of failing to comprehend the issues at hand.
<coz_> troy_s, :)
<coz_> troy_s, I doubt you get that confused
<troy_s> coz_: Oh no, I do.
<troy_s> coz_: What confuses me is that it appears people can't put their finger on the nature of option versus goal.
<troy_s> coz_: Erk... opinion.
<coz_> troy_s,  oh!
<troy_s> coz_: Opinions are terrific when one chooses to listen to them, but in the end, they are opinions.
<coz_> troy_s,  sounds like you have been hitting your head against the wall lately
<troy_s> coz_: The goal of the design is a strange sort of calculated guess however, which should probably be a pretty far leap away from opinion.
<troy_s> coz_: Not really.  Been too busy to get bothered by it.
<troy_s> coz_: Although there has been a lot of mail lately.
<coz_> troy_s, well as long as you dont leave
<coz_> troy_s, you mean the mailing list?
<troy_s> coz_: Lol.  Been around here too long to be leaving really.  I just patiently keep waiting.
<troy_s> coz_: Yeah... the list has been busy.
<thorwil> with noise
<coz_> troy_s, well yeah but that one about top and bottom post got me pretty peeved
<coz_> understandable but ...
<thorwil> i'm only staying subscribed for the rare request or announcement
<troy_s> coz_: Lol.  I honestly could care less.  The thing that drives me bonkers is the quote everything and put one line of comment at the top.
<troy_s> coz_: I find it easier to read and understand if people simply snip out the damn thing that is relevant and reply to the line.
<troy_s> coz_: But apparently that is not going to happen either.
<troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
<coz_> troy_s,  hopefully things will get better
<thorwil> that's exactly what i'm asking for
 * thorwil waves
<coz_> troy_s,  what are the best times  y our time that I can find you here?
<thorwil> i have no trust in the abilities of people who can't even edit text, when it comes to creating artwork. see, it's all communication and love for details
<troy_s> coz_: Well I am going to be done work for a while shortly.  I'll be on more.
<coz_> troy_s,  ok  just wondering  I have been here and of course I seem to come in when no one is talking :)
<troy_s> coz_: That happens.
<coz_> always for me at least
<troy_s> coz_: There isn't _too_ much talk here.
<coz_> I know
<thorwil> especially if troy_s isn't active ;)
<troy_s> coz_: As there isn't much to talk about.
<coz_>  troy_s ooo  thats discouraging
<troy_s> coz_: It is apathy.  Just a bit of the reality of the circumstance.
<coz_> troy_s, is part of this apathy still related to shuttleworth in any way?
<troy_s> coz_: Not at all.  Ubuntu is just a project that doesn't really care that much about certain things.
<coz_> troy_s, like art maybe :)
<troy_s> coz_: It comes down to an either you do or you don't.
<troy_s> coz_: Which largely stems from a lack of understanding / comprehension.  It may very well change... but I am not exactly holding my breath.
<coz_> troy_s,  dont turn blue ... its quite unattractive
<troy_s> coz_: Lol.  Exactly.
<thorwil> what, should he turn brown or orange?
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL now that was funny.
<thorwil> Ubuntu: We don't hold our breath TM
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> Pursuing Excellence Just Like an Amoeba Does It.
<thorwil> lol
<troy_s> This isn't really entirely Ubuntu however, to be fair.
<coz_> troy_s, who do you attribute the blame to ?
<troy_s> coz_: No blame.
<coz_> ok
<troy_s> coz_: It's climate.
<coz_> ah
<troy_s> coz_: One can only look to the nature of the culture and see that as with everything, it is an evolutionary process.
<troy_s> coz_: Just imagine trying to get a job at say Apple without a degree in design or art, no portfolio, etc.
<troy_s> (and I hate using apple as an example, but alas...)
<troy_s> coz_: Yet that is the archetype driving the ship.
<coz_> troy_s,  and you are applying that to the people involved in Ubuntu generally?
<troy_s> coz_:  No.
<thorwil> coz_: plenty of developers are professionals or heading there
<coz_> ok it is 7am here I am not real awake apparenlty
<troy_s> coz_: It is across the entire culture.  It is again, about climate.  Heck it wasnt' that long ago that there weren't tools to even create work on FOSS.
<troy_s> thorwil: There are many professionals in terms of code.
<thorwil> coz_: but apparently, in artwork, there are very few skilled individuals. the rest are kids
<troy_s> thorwil: And that end is extremely top shelf.
<coz_> thorwil, I understand that  and troy_s  has brought that up in the past  in different wording
<coz_> well everyone thinks they are an artist at some point
<troy_s> Ultimately it comes down to output.
<troy_s> Because without output, there isn't a barometer.
<coz_> ooo yes   theory is nice  but output is the key
<troy_s> And I suppose that everyone will carry on as is until they get that sort of sinking feeling that I had at a few points in my career...
<troy_s> where one realizes that they are rather insignificant.
<coz_> ooo  been there
<troy_s> coz_: It happens when you see good work.
<thorwil> if you do digital painting or 3d, don't go to cgtalk ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: ?
<coz_> why is that?
<coz_> thorwil,  #cgtalk ?
<thorwil> regarding good work and feeling insignificant:
<thorwil> http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?s=2e82e1261800a0a3f53b1e66792bec7b&f=121
<thorwil> http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?s=2e82e1261800a0a3f53b1e66792bec7b&f=137
<troy_s> Yeah some strange pursuit of mimesis there.
<troy_s> Never really understood that.
<troy_s> There was one site I came across the other day.  The fellow used 3D in this rather beautiful strange abstract works.
<thorwil> oh common, there's enough there that doesn't try to copy the real world
<troy_s> It's pretty damn impressive on all counts however.
<troy_s> In terms of 3D, when you look at it and you have no clue, it is rather mind numbing.
<troy_s> http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&s=f90f3bab558818a4aea5393bd5c54638&t=586695
<thorwil> that's what i mean
<coz_> troy_s,  yeah I guess that is a bit much but still nicely done
<troy_s> thorwil: The non 3D stuff is pretty magnificent.
<thorwil> troy_s: yes, all in all i prefer it over the 3d stuff
<troy_s> I have a series of photos that I need to finish
<troy_s> then I think I'm going to try and get something done with inkscape
<troy_s> using it as a paint tool... see how it ends up.
<coz_> ok guys ..it is after 7am here and I have not had breakfast.. so I need to go cook something   be back a bit later... hope to see you both here :)
<thorwil> ugh. i have to get my wacom working again, thanks to this one thing broken in hardy
<troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... really?
<troy_s> oh yeah... last time I looked the stanzas were missing in the damn xorg.
<thorwil> troy_s: ok, there are more things broken, but it's the only real issue i have
<thorwil> nah, my xorg.conf is fine
<troy_s> whats busted tehn??!?
<thorwil> after skimming forum posts and bug reports, it looks like it could be the kernel and/or an incompatibility between x and the wacom-tools
<troy_s> thorwil: No way
<troy_s> thorwil: I haven't tried since I bumped up...that would be a major problem for me.
<thorwil> note that i have a serial tablet
 * thorwil turns up the music and goes to clean the bathroom
<troy_s> thorwil: Ok night.  I'm off.  Werk on the morrow.  Nice seeing you again.
<andreasn> troy_s: nice inkscape tutorial on your blog
<coz_> whoa didnt see that andreasn  do you have link handy?
<andreasn> coz_: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/04/inkscape-tutorial-2-text-and-simple.html
<coz_> thanks :)
<artir> cimi, where is the murrine's source code?
<artir> i want RGBA on my desktop!
<artir> :)
<Cimi> artir, you need to w8 gtk+ patches
<artir> i have v 0.60 bzr 39.2-1
<artir> and RGBA work in some places
<artir> it looks like an alpha
<artir> but is k00l
<Cimi> bzrbzr?
<Cimi> bzr?
<artir> i got it from  a ppa
<artir> from gilir's ppa
<Cimi> mmm I must ask him to close it
<Cimi> where is that repo?
<artir> http://ppa.launchpad.net/gilir/ubuntu
<artir> why do you want to close it?
<Cimi> oh lucky, old version :)
<smallfoot-> what is the Human icon theme license?
<thorwil> smallfoot-: GPL 2, i think
<thorwil> no wait
<thorwil> Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5
<smallfoot-> oh
<smallfoot-> there should be an easy way to find out
<thorwil> smallfoot-: http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/human-icon-theme
<thorwil> see Copyright File on the right
<smallfoot-> ah thanks
<smallfoot-> should be able to see license from synaptic though
<smallfoot-> who owns the copyright?
<smallfoot-> Ubuntu Foundation, Ubuntu Art Team or Canonical?
<_MMA_> Most likely Canonical.
<_MMA_> Why do you ask?
<thorwil> smallfoot-: true, synaptic should show license. consider filing a feature request
<smallfoot-> im uploading screenshot to wikipedia
<smallfoot-> and wikipedia needs to know author and copyright holder
<smallfoot-> else it delete image
<smallfoot-> because wikipedia dont want people to upload copyright images
<thorwil> smallfoot-: from the file: Copyright 2004-2006 Canonical Ltd.
<smallfoot-> oh
<smallfoot-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toolbar
<smallfoot-> look cute, now toolbar is on wikipedia :D
<cody-somerville> _MMA_, what do you think would be more useful in Prague? EUR or CZK?
<_MMA_> EUR
<cody-somerville> doh :/ I bought more CZK then EUR.
<_MMA_> Won't matter really. Im going EUR because Im also traveling.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-05-03
<DanaG> Oh yeah, something interesting regarding laser etching:
<DanaG> I've figured out it IS possible to buy a new lid enclosure alone, apparently.
<DanaG> I could buy one, have it etched, and then swap it.  Cool.
<DanaG> Eeh, too expensive, and too permanent.
<babolat> hello.. anyone know where i could find layered version of that wallpaper that came with hardy?
<babolat> where do i get the font that was used for the logo. as in the "ubuntu" word in black ?
<hbons> babolat: the first i don't know, that last one you can easily find on google
<babolat> hbons: what is its name exactly pls?
<hbons> http://www.google.nl/search?q=ubuntu+font&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a
<hbons> now that's not that hard is it?
<[ArtuR]> russians?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-05-04
<DanaG> Heh, have you seen the Fedora 9 wallpaper as it is now?  It makes me want to sneeze, for some reason.
<DanaG> It's likely a cross between looking sparkly reminding me of pollen and such, and simply the "photic sneeze reflex"
<BHSPitLappy> bahahahaha http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes/electric-sphere?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=bb_26.jpg
<DanaG> What the ??????
<DanaG> That's amusing and odd, and, "why?"
<BHSPitLappy> that's one of their actual submissions
<DanaG> That's just plain odd.  Picture me with a giant "Â¿Â¡!?" over my head.
<DanaG> s/me/a person/
<DanaG> http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/05/03/bit-tech-april-potm-winner-announced/1
<bersace> kwwii: hi
<bersace> it's always the same
<bersace> each new cycle
<bersace> so much people comes with *their own* idea for ubuntu artwork
<bersace> completely irrationnal ;)
<WarMX> hi there
<WarMX> does someone know anything about Intrepid Ibex' artwork?
<WarMX> too early maybe..
<WarMX> hello there?
<WarMX> sigh...
<psyke83> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-27
<thorwil> kwwii, hi! i would like to create Incoming/Concepts, move Karmic/UserInteraction and Specifications/WarningTheme there. Then delete the empty Specifications/Powder page, new page can be created in the right place.
<kwwii> thorwil: sounds good to me
<kwwii> I am heading out to the doctor in a minute, so I won't be around until later this afternoon
<thorwil> drop the link to Specifications on the main page, making it invisible, but still having the text in place should we ever do blueprint specs
<kwwii> right, just in case :)
<thorwil> kwwii, ok. will do it. be nice to the doctor :)
<kwwii> I shall try
<ia_> hello. i have a little bit strange question - could you tell me, please, where can i find banner, which was shown at ubuntu.com page in day of jaunty release (now there only ubuntu shop banner)?
<thorwil> ia_, you mean the "It's here" countdown image?
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu.com/files/countdown/904/countdown-9.04-1/00.png
<thorwil> damn, Mathew must have compressed the png
<thorwil> kwwii, one has to have an eye on that newz guy dealing with images! ;)
<ia_> thorwil: thanks for response, but i've already found it - http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/countdown (i've looked for "New for 9.04: Animated banner") - i think, that it's looks really great; especially "for ..." images :-)
<thorwil> ia_, well, thank you! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-28
<robsta> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi robsta
<thorwil> how's things?
<robsta> so so
<thorwil> well, could be worse, then :)
<thorwil> robsta, for the notebook, will we have just one set of states for all tabs, or could there be 3 sets for first tab, middle tabs, last tab?
<robsta> we'll of course go for the real thing
<thorwil> robsta, i guess for overlap-free slicing, there could also be a need for non-tab top-border images? or can we have variable overlap of tabs and body?
<robsta> thorwil: please explain
<robsta> i don't get what you mean
<thorwil> robsta, say you want a dark outline around the notebook. all around, not crossing the tabs
<robsta> evil!
<thorwil> robsta, one could either solve that by drawing the body as one rectangle with outline, to then draw the tabs on top, with a little overlap to hide the body outline there
<robsta> oh, you mean theming the notebook border's body?
<thorwil> robsta, or you would need to have the body with open top, to then close it with tabs and a no-tab image
<thorwil> yes
<robsta> notebook is probably the hardest widget
<robsta> the body is drawn as a rectangle wit a gap
<robsta> but the gap is only as big as the currently active tab
<robsta> i don't know if we can hack the inactive tabs to draw over the notebook's border
<robsta> but i can try :)
<thorwil> robsta, well, ideally it should be possible to create classic tabs or Mac style and whatever one might find between
<robsta> what would that look like "classic tabs"?
<thorwil> robsta, gtk standard
<thorwil> clearlooks
<robsta> oh
<robsta> and mac style with centered tabs?
<thorwil> robsta, centered and without a connection between the buttons and the "page"
<robsta> that's impossible currently
<robsta> (not a theming problem)
<thorwil> guessed so
<robsta> the theme doesn't determine the position of the tabs
<thorwil> robsta, the gap for the active tab is just in the outline, where said outline can be a combination, several pixels wide?
<robsta> thorwil: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/08-rounded-bg.png
<robsta> thorwil: look at the notebooks at the bottom, the body is drawn with "1px solid black"
<robsta> "tab1" is active
<thorwil> i see. so the outline is inside the body rect
<thorwil> robsta, but you can 2 or even more 1px outlines?
<thorwil> can have, even
<robsta> thorwil: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/09-rounded-bounded.png
<robsta> like so?
<thorwil> if they had different colors
<robsta> the tab border and the body border?
<thorwil> just talking about the body border
<robsta> what should have different colors?
<thorwil> robsta, in other words: can you draw 2 (or even more) outlines for the body? each with separate line fill
<robsta> not easily
<robsta> impossible is nothing
<robsta> you can do it using border-image i guess
<thorwil> robsta, that would be nice, if we could go with virtually the same approach as on buttons
<robsta> thorwil: that should work, just the gap might need some special treatment
<robsta> thorwil: best you draw it up, then we look at how to implement it
<thorwil> robsta, ok
 * thorwil -> coffee
 * thorwil wonders how dozens of mailing list messages made it into the Junk folder
<SiDi> thorwil: i didnt submit any artwork tho :( shouldnt have gone junk (
<thorwil> heh
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-29
<thorwil> kwwii, looks like we have another candidate for Incoming/Concepts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/Grub_UI
<kwwii> thorwil: coooooool!
<thorwil> what!?
<kwwii> ;)
<thorwil> shall i ask jackwhite when he will start coding and if he thinks he can have a first release for a karmic alpha? ;)
<thorwil> phew, my junk folder is once again all about britney's huge banana pill millions
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/Backgrounds seems to indicate that people don't like the concept of thumbnails (240 px high)
<kwwii> yeah, for wallpapers it makes it kinda hard to juedge at such a small size
<kwwii> judge
<kwwii> those seem kinda big to me though
<thorwil> my jaunty images are 240 px: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/Backgrounds?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=laola_tn.jpg
<kwwii> yeah, and when I went through all of these with mark and co, I had to find larger versions to show them
<SiDi> hi people
<kwwii> btw, http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/wireframes/ might be good for people working on themeing to look into
<thorwil> kwwii, must have been hard with the links to full sizr version right below. anyway, what size do you suggest for background previews? the Backgrounds page might become long ...
<kwwii> thorwil: well, it was annoying to have to do it again and again :)
<kwwii> we can keep them at 240 unless people complain
<kwwii> and nobody has complained yet :)
<thorwil> nobody followed the rule, yet ;)
<kwwii> oh, and ivanka's job has changed a bit but I am not sure if I am allowed to discuss things at canonical
<thorwil> maybe i will experiment with sizes between 300 and 400 a bit and then enforce a size
<kwwii> I agree that if it is too big the page gets hard to scroll through
<thorwil> kwwii, i took it from linkedin
<thorwil> kwwii, or right, Mr. Baer. do you have anything to say regarding his Artwork wiki page draft 2?
<kwwii> yeah, I was going to reply to that today...all in all the structure seems sound but I am not a fan of the pics
<thorwil> kwwii, not a fan either. huge improvement over the pictures taken from the online shop, though :)
<kwwii> so maybe we should have a call for pics for that page :)
<thorwil> kwwii, if you insist on plain == headlines ==, shooting down his graphics-work, i can agree, but you will be the bad guy ;)
<kwwii> at least we would be allowed to make the decision on that :p
<kwwii> oh, I think the pics do make it easier to read and find things, I just don't like those specific pics
<thorwil> they speak of the everyone-is-welcome-to-fool-around-with-pretty-pictures-here stance
<thorwil> in this sense, they are well done. right on intention
<thorwil> so if you do make a call, say something about the message. but arg, who am i telling that? :)
 * thorwil -> coffee
<kwwii> ;)
<kwwii> that is true
<kwwii> and it *is* time for coffee ;)
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/bubble.png ideas?
<robsta> hey thorwil, nice work on the notebooks
<robsta> thorwil: unfortunately you are really challenging librsvg
<robsta> the latest revision produces yet another crasher
<thorwil> robsta, hi. was busy, digging out ivy roots
<thorwil> robsta, i'm not even using blur, masking or clipping. how dare librsvg crash on kinderkram?
 * thorwil notes after hard manual work, the mouse feels like a brick
<thorwil> kwwii, for ideas on that one would need a little context
<thorwil> generally it's always the same problem with reflective surfaces. you need to have an idea of the environment. or use comic-like simplification
 * thorwil -> shower, dinner
<kwwii> thorwil: the idea was to create a sphere out of colored glass which we could use for the ayatana project and other things spawning from that
<kwwii> so different projects could have different colored glass balls
<SiDi> dragon balls ?
<kwwii> ;)
<SiDi> in fact that bubble pic i saw from irclogs looks like a dragon ball :D
<SiDi> (and it looks really sweet too :p)
<savvas> balls?
<savvas> :p
<savvas> wait is that ball going to be as a background or become a useful multi-purpose button of some sort?
<SiDi> if you get seven of them, you can ask something to the sabdfl savvas !
<savvas> more balls!
<savvas> haha
<thorwil> kwwii, reminds me of http://www.csh.rit.edu/~garrett/voicenotes/images/caf-logo.png and http://blog.tice.de/a_icons/icons/Extra Core Video.png
<thorwil> anyway, dinner time for real now
<thorwil> (away
<thorwil> arhg
<kwwii> hehe, that in turn looks like the akonadi oxygen icon
<SiDi> Tnats
<SiDi> Thats * a shame the computer icon was moved from the Breathe set
<SiDi> i liked it a lot.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-30
<robsta> hiya
<thorwil> hi robsta
<thorwil> robsta, seen my 2nd librsvg mail?
<robsta> thorwil: yes
<robsta> thorwil: regarding separate svgs, guess that won't help
<robsta> (except for finding out what exactly tiggers the bugs)
<thorwil> robsta, Anton is aware of the problem?
<robsta> thorwil: i guess so, he complained about nautilus crashing after all
<kwwii> hey robsta
<kwwii> after talking to thorwil about the css engine stuff, I sent an email poking cody russel and some others in canonical
<kwwii> I will discuss it privately with them and then reach out to the whole canonical dx team when I have a good feeling of what I am saying :)
<robsta> kwwii: that's some great news
<robsta> kwwii: thorwil beat me to making progress lately
<thorwil> i will continue work on the template this (long) weekend
<thorwil> coffee, bbl
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-05-01
<SiDi> hi
<thorwil> hello
<dashua> SiDi: Hey mate, if you dug Kin, Kith, Kin Dust, Didymous, etc. from Gutsy/Intrepid cycle?  Check out my latest incarnation in my bzr branch.
<SiDi> I will :p remind me that tomorrow pls ^^ im watching #ubuntu-chatroom atm :p
<SiDi> what's your branch ?
<SiDi> ~dashua/+junk/Karmic ?
<dashua> Karmic-Themes
<dashua> Ok
<SiDi> It'll take me ages to download anyways with my connection :) i'll ping you about it tomorrow after i had a look at it. Thanks for pinging me tho
<dashua> Np :)
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/13365/screenshot_012_qU7563.png
<dashua> Always loved this palatte.
<SiDi> the wallpaper's sexy :) but i dont think i could manage to run with a red desktop
<SiDi> its not a color for work / rest :(
<SiDi> dashua: your screenshot is half loaded now \o/
<dashua> Oh wow, slow connection, eh?
<dashua> Man, this wallpaper is exactly the same as the Simple-Ubuntu wallpaper in Jaunty minus the glare circles
<SiDi> It used to be very fast. i'm on a university residence wifi. my neighboors ended up noticing the wifi signal too
<dashua> Yeah, it's pretty rich
<SiDi> i'm under xfce :) didnt upgrade my gnome machine yet
<dashua> Ah man
<SiDi> Says 12 hours of package downloading :d
<SiDi> it'll wait for a sunday morning
<dashua> Yeah, that's long
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-05-02
 * SiDi is gonna try to draw a graph with inkscape \o/
<SiDi> Whats the inkscape shortcut for the stroke and color of a form please ?
 * SiDi loves Inkscape !
<ryanprior> Inkscape is such a great program. I find it immensely more useful than The Gimp -- I think somebody should just write a raster graphics plugin for Inkscape.
<SiDi> Well, i cant manage to do anything with the gimp
<SiDi> inkscape is much easier to learn
<SiDi> (or its much easier to forget about phoshop for inkscape, dunno :x)
<thorwil> strange. i had #ubuntu-art, not #ubuntu-artwork in my auto-join list. got a "You have been kicked from #ubuntu-art by ChanServ (Invite only channel)" on startup
<thorwil> but then a /j #ubuntu-art worked
<SiDi> hi
<thorwil> bonjour SiDi
<SiDi> Hejsa thorwil :D
<SiDi> how are you ?
<thorwil> flooded by sunshine
<thorwil> and self?
<SiDi> fine fine
<SiDi> flooded by laziness :X
 * thorwil -> food
<thorwil> a little break from drawing widgets: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/uzbl-2/
 * SiDi googles uzbl now.
<SiDi> got this as a response :http://www.univ-lyon1.fr/ T_T
<thorwil> SiDi, http://github.com/Dieterbe/uzbl/tree/master
<SiDi> I found the answer on your blog :P
<thorwil> you are _so_ fast! :)
<SiDi> google shew me your blog amongst answers :D
<SiDi> its a web browser with a lolcat name =D
<SiDi> Having fun with inkscape : http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1503/fasttrack.png (CAUTION : this is NOT art :D)
<SiDi> dashua: ping
<SiDi> http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3006/dihansoxfce.png
<SiDi> if you have a screenshot of the metacity for hanso/rust, i'd like it. I don't have metacity anymore :x
<savvas> playing with gnutella eh?
<savvas> :p
<SiDi> savvas: its fasttrack, but gnutella's coming :D
<savvas> they're different?
<SiDi> oh yes
<SiDi> they're even opposite
<savvas> hmm
<savvas> gnutella's like a polygon inter-connected I guess?
<SiDi> fasttrack(aka KaZaA) relays on several servers, for all the peer/file informations, and peers only exchange data when given the IPs by the serv
<SiDi> while gnutella is the first "pure" P2P network
<savvas> I was thinking of creating a really simple gnutella client in python
<SiDi> gnutella is a sort of graph without any structure. you just connect to X peers and you send them requests. and when you cant answer a request, you flood it to all your peers. terribly inefficient
<SiDi> make a chord / kademlia one ;)
<savvas> but I'm not that good with networking commands :p
<SiDi> these networks are more efficient :P
 * SiDi has almost finished his Bt client :D
<savvas> a what? :P
<savvas> neah, transmissionbt team did an excellent job, that's the kind of look I want to use for gnutella :)
<dashua> SiDi: Hey, having problems connection to my Vista box =/
<dashua> Wow, that screenshot is sexxy, minus the metacity ;)
<savvas> ugly!
 * savvas runs
<dashua> Kido pushed most of my MurrinaDust code into series .4
<SiDi> dashua: minus the menu bug too ?: D
<dashua> Oh yeah
<dashua> Not good
<SiDi> savvas: yeh transmission is so well coded that i'll never be able to do better :( their daemon is heavily optimised, their code is clear, their GUI is easy to use and sobre, and their feature list is one of the biggest :D
<savvas> I'd keep it like that if you ask me :P
<SiDi> dashua: give me high quality screenshots of hanso / rust's metacities please :)
<dashua> SiDi: One sec
<savvas> SiDi: so what did you use for xfce in the end? the one with the bigger font?
<savvas> I mean that picture you showed some days ago :)
<SiDi> savvas: damn i cant even remember which picture you mean :/
<SiDi> AAah yes
<dashua> Rust : http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/13411/screenshot_024_3DHlw5.png
<SiDi> they were arguing too much, they finally made another, savvas :D
<SiDi> http://xubuntu.org/themes/xubuntu810/img/fpage/jaunty.png
<dashua> Hanso: http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/13412/screenshot_023_M6574b.png
<savvas> haha
<savvas> that's better :P
<savvas> say, who did the scribblings? :)
<SiDi> knome
<SiDi> i think * :P
<SiDi> dashua: is it possible to make the outside border of the scrollbars round too ? I find it harsh at the moment.
<savvas> I mean is there a font for that "jaunty jackalope"? looks nice!
<SiDi> Thanks for the screenshots
<dashua> Yeah, I will work on it some more tonight.  I have to lighten the scrollbars for Dust as well
<dashua> Really one of the only sets of pixmap scrollbars I've seen that look somewhat normal in OOo
<SiDi> :p
<dashua> Dark anyways
<SiDi> yeh, OOo's not friendly with dark
<dashua> I have this sneaking suspicion Karmic, 10.4 will have a dark theme with purple hints
<dashua> Which if done right, can look pretty damn sexxy
<dashua> Maroon too
<SiDi> :D
<SiDi> I have this sneaking suspicion there wont be any theme for 9.10 :x
<SiDi> indicator-applet, *maybe* plymouth, and eucalyptus
<dashua> Me too, maybe fragments ;p
<SiDi> Imagine, they make one half of the theme
<SiDi> and release it with halfs of human :D
<dashua> I think they code their own engine and unleash at once like notify-osd was done.
<dashua> But not very soon.
<SiDi> See you later people
<savvas> buh bye!
<knome> SiDi?
<knome> savvas, that font is my handwriting :P
<savvas> chicken writing! I want a ttf or similar with an appropriate license :p
<knome> lol
<knome> opentype it will be if i get it done
<savvas> ok :)
<knome> i actually have several handwriting styles
<knome> which i should copy to a font
<knome> but one of them is really hard
<knome> it's keeping the pen in the paper as long as possible
<knome> doing interesting combinations and ligatures
<knome> and it's actually my fastest typing!
<knome> in addition that it's *really* hard to copy, it's also not always that good looking, what it usually is
<knome> though if you need some scribbling now and then, feel free to ask...
<savvas> knome: noted, thanks hehe :)
<savvas> good night everyone!
<Skiessi> bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-05-03
<SiDi> hi knome
<SiDi> was gone to drink a beer :P
<knome> lol
<knome> not really
<SiDi> what not really?
<SiDi> it did was a beer :D
<knome> right, you did beer
<knome> i did not
<SiDi> yeh
<SiDi> thats what i meant
 * SiDi has drunk beer. Might be non coherent
<SiDi> What's up knome ?
<knome> nothing special
<knome> playin NFS undercover *on ubuntu*
<SiDi> :p
<SiDi> wine works better under xubuntu than ubuntu anyways :D
<SiDi> no pulse / no compiz / xfwm's fullscreen feature rocks
<knome> well xubuntu
<knome> but ubuntu anyway, you know... not windows
<knome> i'm a bit bored of this theme already after having played nfs porsche and nfsu2
<SiDi> go for fps's
<knome> buy a car, lose the cops, win races, tune your car, everybody is happy
<SiDi> its always fun to shoot zombies \o/
<knome> nah, never have liked fps
<SiDi> Now that im drunk i feel like its the best time ever to review my university project report
<knome> agreed
<knome> lol, even listen thinks i should go to sleep
<knome> plays a track with the finnish title "good night"
<SiDi> ^^
<SiDi> ok my song is about a dead person
<SiDi> i hope its not a presage
<knome> well my next song is titled "time bomb"
<SiDi> Don't kill me :O
<knome> haha
 * SiDi surrenders.
<knome> me trys to find out what to do next in nfs undercover to get further :P
<SiDi> kill someone ? :P
<knome> my total playtime is now 7h 40mins
<knome> and i'm at 79% career
<SiDi> ew
<SiDi> games become too short :x
<knome> i've become too good :P
<SiDi> i played over 50 hours in Baldur's gate 2 and i didnt do half of it
<SiDi> Yeh could be a factor too
<SiDi> Nowaday's FPSes seem trivial even in hard mode :(
<knome> honestly i don't think i'm too good or that the games are too short in a way, but too predictable
<knome> earlier you had to find out what to do
<knome> now you can skip some parts to finish the game
<knome> and then play them later
<SiDi> well, i mostly play fpses and they're very linear
<SiDi> but the AI didnt improve much in the last years
<SiDi> I also play a lot of RPGs, but usually the old ones :P I'm a bg / nwn fan
<knome> meh
<knome> i'm a clickety-click fan
<knome> Ã¡la transport and rollercoaster tycoon (and openttd)
<SiDi> rollercoaster :D
<knome> yes. damn addictive
<knome> but most addicted i am into games where you can build your transportation network :P~
<knome> like some sort of drug to me
<SiDi> damn, i'm such a troll T_T
<SiDi> check #xubuntu
<knome> d'oh
<SiDi> Damn, i remember now why i opened firefox ! i had to get some gnutella schemes :/ oh dear
<knome> hah
<SiDi> Ok, bed time
<SiDi> knome: have fun, don't drive over too many people
<knome> hah, there is no people in this game
<knome> only cars
<SiDi> if you get used to it you'll have RL trouble afterwards :|
<knome> good night :P
<SiDi> night :)
<knome> i don't have a drivers license in the RL
<knome> no so problem there either :P
<SiDi> hi
<H_M-Ubuntu> Anyone on?
<thorwil> nope
<H_M-Ubuntu> Hmmm, oh well.
<H_M-Ubuntu> I just wanted opinions anyway :)
<thorwil> i'd suggest the mailing list. it's full of opinions sometimes ... anyway, what's the matter?
<H_M-Ubuntu> Oh, well i'm making a new wallpaper (Or) GDM theme, and I wanted opinions on it.
<H_M-Ubuntu> http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/7koaudqliytwfxz7p.jpg <---
<H_M-Ubuntu> The red bar in the bottom probably won't be there.
<H_M-Ubuntu> Depending on if it's a GDM theme, and where I put the input boxes and node information.
<H_M-Ubuntu> The last GDM theme I made was a little too specific (I put Ubuntu on it).. Evidently some people wanted it with just Linux.. So
<H_M-Ubuntu> I delivered this instead of a revamp :)
<thorwil> i think it leads the eye to the center too much to be a good wallpaper. this very same thing could make sense for a GDM. a kind of gateway/tunnel effect. but then you have a big problem of where to put the entry
<H_M-Ubuntu> Well, i'll show you my other GDM theme,
<H_M-Ubuntu> One second.
<H_M-Ubuntu> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/UbuGDM+Widescreen?content=102805
<H_M-Ubuntu> I actually updated that one, it has some fixes.
<H_M-Ubuntu> A little bit of re-centering, and buttons on the left.
<thorwil> brrr, cold
<H_M-Ubuntu> That was actually one of the first things I made in GIMP.... first GDM theme, aswell. I'm used to photoshop, but GIMP is free and... free....
<thorwil> i worked with photoshop 4 up to the first CS version or so. i like gimp :)
<H_M-Ubuntu> By the way, I made that GDM theme monotone, because I have a monotone theme.
<H_M-Ubuntu> I HAVE Adobe CS4, but I don't use it much.. except for video editing, or several other things.
<H_M-Ubuntu> If I really require an Adobe application, i'll just run it in a VM.
<H_M-Ubuntu> (Which I don't, so I won't.)
<thorwil> H_M-Ubuntu, how about you try something off-center, with no text?
<H_M-Ubuntu> Hmmm off center... then where?
<thorwil> H_M-Ubuntu, i recommend to have a look at http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=3275
<H_M-Ubuntu> Not sure how that would apply here.
<thorwil> H_M-Ubuntu, it applies always. i'm well aware of how that looks like another world, but it should just get you to think about composition
<H_M-Ubuntu> Well, I assure you I don't always use that centered focal point. :)
<H_M-Ubuntu> That would get boring.
<LordMetroid> Ohh, I found a irc channel to complement the mailing list
<SiDi> Oo
<LordMetroid> The Ubuntu artwork mailing list...
<LordMetroid> Where people discuss and post the artwork that is being done for ubuntu
 * SiDi hides.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-03
<vish> thorwil: Bug #215341 ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 215341 in human-theme "Add some visual feedback when hover mouse over menubar" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215341
<thorwil> i think there's a gtk bug, too
<vish> looks like we lost a lot of members > https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art
<vish> i recall there being a lot more ~100 , might be because of the spam about the metacity buttons! :/
<thorwil> good. that's more realistic
<vish> true
<thorwil> it feels like that number should be closer to 12 or so
<knome> we should take some action to make the artwork team work better
<thorwil> vish: added a comment with a link to a gtk+ bug report with patch
<vish> neat..
<thorwil> started in 2006, ugh
<knome> hah
<vish> :/
<graftrahula> dead silence
<thorwil> poor soul, might never experience the enlightenment of hours of idling on irc
<thorwil> knome: regarding making the artwork team work better, i think we need better tools, more skills and understanding, better communication ... where would you like to start? ;)
<vish> huh , so that was what sabdfl mentioned..
<vish> gah! delete .. del  , del!  and the ayatan mails are down to ~30 and now no time to read :s
<thorwil> vish: what "that"?
<vish> thorwil: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333
<knome> thorwil, communication, definitely.
<knome> thorwil, (i'm serious..)
<thorwil> knome: will you be in brussels?
<knome> nope
<thorwil> vish: might be goo stuff. a few fellows on ayatana ml are just way to wordy
<vish> thorwil: yeah , but it got to a point where i had 200 mails from ayatana alone :(
<zehcnas> hh
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-04
<darkmatter> looks like gPod.. err.. gnome-shell now uses the users fonts/rendering
<vish> kwwii: hi, i'm inclined to mark the suggest wallpaper in theme bug "wont fix".. is that ok?
<vish> i dont see any benefit there..
<ubuntujenkins> does anyone know where i can get the source of the gnome-spinner like the one in /usr/share/icons/Humanity/animations/32 ?
<ubuntujenkins> I'd like a much bigger one.
<kwwii> vish: yes, go please do
<vish> kwwii: thanks..
<kwwii> ubuntujenkins: if you are looking in humanity, there must be svg's available
<ubuntujenkins> kwwii: there isn't one in the folders. Is there a source branch or similar
<kwwii> vish: ^
<kwwii> vish: and idea where the sources are?
<vish> oh , thats from gnome
<vish> ubuntujenkins: thats actually from gnome theme...
<vish> they have a 48px one in git
<ubuntujenkins> vish: which git?
<vish> ubuntujenkins: not sure of the correct one off hand , but search for gnome-icon-theme in git
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks vish and kwwii
<darkmatter> vish: it won't be long until you can kill off a bazillion redundant icons ;)
<vish> darkmatter: well , they better hurry up.. kinda getting tired of making symlinks :s
<andreasn> the icon symlinks? those are funny
<vish> andreasn: well , for humanity the symlinks are not done by the naming utils, mostly a hack for the monochrome icons
<vish> and sometimes it gets hard finding the icons ..
<coz_> hey all
<darkmatter> o/
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
 * darkmatter is a happy camper. travel expenses came today \o/
<darkmatter> how has coz_ been doing?
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok  other than the 9 times I had to reinstall xp on one partition because of damn viruses  other than that   fine :)  how about yourseflt?
<coz_> yourself
<darkmatter> coz_: not bad. been flushing my system in preparation for next week (more chemo). but hey. they give me a ton of cash for the trip. so I can't complain ;)
<coz_> cool
<coz_> darkmatter,  but I thought that was in remission?
<darkmatter> been taking a break from the gnome3 stuff though. I'll probably start up after this treatment. just soo much to deal with atm, no time for the fun of design :/
<darkmatter> coz_: it started up again. they've been watching it closely for a bit, and decided it's time to toxify me again *shrug*
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm... I think you will beat it again guy :)
<darkmatter> coz_: yup. the last time it was stage 4, so this time should be childs play
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-05
<directhex> which ttf file contains the "Sans" identified in system/preferences/appearance ?
<directhex> i.e. is it vera or liberation or something else?
<Viper550> so, we got any ideas for lubuntu?
<Viper550> I must say, Lucid looks hot
<Viper550> the icon applet for compiz could use a fitting icon
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-06
<directhex> tinker tinker tinker... http://imgur.com/AHlSI
<thorwil> kwwii: good morning! so with a 2nd introduction of a web-designer on the list, who seems to be somewhat competent, it would be great if you or one of your colleagues could explain if a new theme for the wiki and/or the brainstorm site would be welcome and what the conditions would be
<kwwii> thorwil: right, thanks for that...will do
<kwwii> thorwil: unfortunately, dom and the web crew are not in belgium with us :-(
<kwwii> thorwil: might take a week or so to figure things out
<thorwil> kwwii: i'm about to ask N. Deschildre to get to know who's in charge of brainstorm now. meanwhile just a note to the list that this is being investigated would be nice
<kwwii> cool, will do
 * thorwil wonders where the flood of introductions comes from and if anyone one of them will actually do something
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-07
<shadeslayer> hi,where can i find the cd wallet artwork for kubuntu?
<shadeslayer> alvin: well youre more likely to get a response here :)
<alvin> shadeslayer: Thank you, but I seem to have troubles with my cd burner/printer. I'll look into it later.
<shadeslayer> alvin: ok :)
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu.org.uy/main/
<lassegul> thorwil: im guessing you dont care, but it renders horribly in IE6 :P
<thorwil> lassegul: tell them, i had nothing to do with that site. i just wonder how they can not notice the blue circle on orange ground bites and that the logo-type should be white
<lassegul> oh snap
<thorwil> that reminds me ...
<thorwil> kwwii: why is it "Brand Guidelines" and not "Visual Identity Guidelines"?
<kwwii> thorwil: not sure, I will forward that to the team
<kwwii> thorwil: next week, during UDS, I am going to update the official artwork page
<kwwii> include palettes for gimp and such, etc
<thorwil> cool
<vish> kwwii: hey , hows the weather there ? :)
<thorwil> vish: you think he has time to go outside!? ;)
<vish> i guess anywhere is gonna be chilly .. [coming from the tropics]  ;)
<vish> thorwil: ha!
<vish> thorwil: well atleast hope they dont freeze us indoors
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-08
<Viper550> so, what ideas do we have for Lubuntu?
<Viper550> I kinda had a "frost" idea
<Viper550> hey
<Viper550> morning
<Viper550> I had some ideas for the Lubuntu look
<Viper550> hello?
<coz_> Viper550,  hey guy../.sorry  I am in the middle of icon editing :)
<Viper550> I'm trying to inquire about GTK engines and low-end computers
<Viper550> troy_s, can gtk engine choice effect system performance?
<troy_s> Viper550: "System Performance" is relative. Yes, but no.
<Viper550> troy_s, so a gtk engine with a cairo backend won't effect performance on say, the kind of computer we're targeting Lubuntu for?
<Viper550> cause I'm working on a GTK theme for a mockup based off the Lucid desktop
<troy_s> Viper550: I have no clue. Is there a baseline system? I doubt it. But I have no clue. And don't really care.
<Viper550> *Ubuntu Lucid theme
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-09
<LiroXIV> anyone here?
<spicerar> hi everyone. I've been using ubuntu for many years and i've been translating. Now i'd like to start with artwork but i don't kknow how to start. can anyone help?
<thorwil> spicerar: hi
<spicerar> 	
<spicerar> thorwil: hi
<thorwil> spicerar: first you need to understand that all the official ubuntu artwork comes from a team of designers at canonical
<thorwil> spicerar: a few people in the community create additional themes
<thorwil> spicerar: there this for wallpapers: http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork  (not limited to photos)
<thorwil> spicerar: we have a wiki section: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<thorwil> you could also look into creating material for http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/
<spicerar> thorwil: ah, ok. i understand. so, you mean, to develop artwork one must belong to the canonical team... isn't it?
<spicerar> thorwil: and this are pages where you dev. the material
<thorwil> spicerar: almost. it's just that they work on it full time, in direct contact with Mark shuttleworth. there remains a theoretical possibility of community work ending up as part of the official artwork
<thorwil> spicerar: yes, wiki and mailing list and this channel are used to organize and collaborate
<spicerar> thorwil: aha... ok. I understand.. so, thanks so much for the information. i'll be looking at this pages.
<thorwil> spicerar: np. i'll hit the road, bbl
<Viper550> morning
<Viper550> anyone here?
<Viper550> anyone here...?
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-05-04
<mainerror> doctormo, don't you have a classroom session now?
<thorwil> ha, this page has a section with Circle of Friends knock-offs: http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/the-logo-design-hall-of-fame/
<coz_> thorwil,  kind of obvious ones as well :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-05-05
 * thorwil cycled through nature and brought some of it back home in his socks
 * vish wonders if cycling is why thorwil's IRC presence pattern has changed
<thorwil> vish: i used to keep the computer running, now i usually turn if off when leaving the house for a bit longer
<vish> ah!
<vish> thorwil: trying to save the planet, eh? ;p
<thorwil> heh
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-05-06
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-05-07
 * darkmatter demands medical grade cannabis from coz_ :O
<darkmatter> good morning btw :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy  thanks,, same to you :)
 * darkmatter is reading lab/clinical test reports that show THC attacks cancer cells
<darkmatter> now why the **** are governments not funding research for it?
<coz_> darkmatter,  because we live in a capitolistic society,, if cancer is cured millions of people lose thier jobs
<coz_> darkmatter,  i have a very dim view of t his country in terms of its dedication to actually cure diseases
<darkmatter> even ured some. not enough of a percentage to be a 'miracle cure' (as of yet). but enough to spark medical excitement.
<darkmatter> more research would = a potential derivative application
<darkmatter> since drinking hemp oil has the same effect. it's not about THC in the "stoner" sense
<coz_> darkmatter,  although,,, I did see on TED  a group of scientists who condemn  treating cancer as in infectious disease when  it is in fact the body itself doing this,,, they  believe ,, with some knowkedgeable info,, that it is the proteins in the body that have stopped talking to eachother  that causes this and are working towards the ability to correct that mis communication
<darkmatter> coz_: even benign tumors and lesions. it appears to reverse genetic damage to an extent
<darkmatter> crazy stuff
<coz_> darkmatter,   I dont know how you deal with this,,, it has to be a haunting experience
<darkmatter> coz_: it's base protiens. the DNA of the cell actually mutates
<coz_> darkmatter,  right and these guys want to correct the protein communication,, both nutritionally and pharmaceuticaly
<darkmatter> coz_: results in that cell (and it's offshots) not performing their given task in the grand scheme of the body. it also lengthens the lifespan of such cells, which is normally abrupt, to almost indefinite length
<darkmatter> thus the tumors
<coz_> darkmatter,  I admire your ability to deal with this
<darkmatter> defective cell reproduce more raidly then they die off, replacing healthy tissue as other cells hit the limits of their lifespan
<darkmatter> coz_: lol. I always find that reaction from people funny for some reason
<darkmatter> for me its just the way it is
<darkmatter> dunno why. I'm just like that
<darkmatter> though I do get nerved up on the rare occasion
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes I understand that ,, and probably would be so for me,, its just I saw my sister going through this ,, but that cancer was far too virulent
<darkmatter> usually when I notice some change in the body. but that's a natural reaction
<darkmatter> coz_: err... your sister died? :(
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah a few weeks ago.. pancretic cancer
<darkmatter> my condolences
<coz_> darkmatter,  she was told about a month ago,, and two weeks later she died
<coz_> darkmatter,  it went from a spot on here pancreas  to entire body including the brain in 3 weeks
<coz_> it was awful.. she was in so much pain,,, terrible
<darkmatter> I guy I'm kinda friends with (you usually get to know some fellow ppatients quite well, since you see so much of eachother at clinic) was scheduled for a stemcell, but turned out his last chemo didn't work. saw him last appointment, was really down. they were getting ready to hit him with a Hail Mary. if it didn't work, he said they were guestimating 6 months :/
<darkmatter> a guy*
<coz_> oh man  it is absolutely terrible,,, I just dont think this government/ medical   are interested in a cure
<coz_> I hope I am wrong
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. pancreatic is terrible. so is colon
<darkmatter> two of my mom's cousins (brother and sister) had it. Mary pulled though after her surgery, but Andrei.. well.. it went ballistic _really_ fast. best they could do was try to keep him comfortable
<coz_> darkmatter,  there is always the Geson treatment
<coz_> Gerson
<darkmatter> coz_: I remember the news, late 80's. they found a cure for a particular type of brain cancer. all clinical tests succeeded. but then *poof*
<darkmatter> nothing
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah see,, thats my problem with this particular society
<coz_> darkmatter,  something works and then "poof"  nothing
<darkmatter> so, I'm kinda pessimistic regarding full on cures _ever_ becoming a reality
<coz_> darkmatter, ` have you heard of Dr. Gerson?
<darkmatter> since most of that research happens in the US
<darkmatter> coz_: sounds familiar
<darkmatter> but not 100% sure atm
<coz_> http://www.hulu.com/watch/180363/the-gerson-miracle
<darkmatter> probably the lack of caffeine in my system ;)
 * darkmatter clicks
<coz_> darkmatter,  not too far off on that caffeine thing,, watch that movie
<coz_> darkmatter,  there are questionable parts in that film but overall ,, very intriguing
<darkmatter> coz_: bah. hulu doesn't stream to canada. lol
<darkmatter> I mean, seriously, wth? we're far less anal about content and crap than the US
<darkmatter> o.O
<coz_> darkmatter,  you are in canada???
<darkmatter> ya
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh man where is my head
<coz_> darkmatter,  they dont stream up there?
<darkmatter> coz_: about 2 hours north of the border
<darkmatter> coz_: apparently not. they gave me a popup :(
<coz_> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5059144
<darkmatter> that'll do it ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  please watch that,, I am interested in your opinion and how it rates with  you
<coz_> darkmatter,  I wanted my sister to go there but of course  she took too long to decide on any treatment
<coz_> none of which would have worked anyway
<darkmatter> coz_: yup. will do. transmission is currently living in the shells message tray ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  the movie is titled     The Gerson Miracle   if that torrent doesnt work
<darkmatter> yup
 * darkmatter loves transmission
<darkmatter> lightweight. works as advertised.
<coz_> darkmatter,  the priceedure ,, it seems.. would take quite a bit of  courage to switch from Medical options to the gerson method for the individual
<darkmatter> may not be the most feature rich client, but it does what _I_ need it to
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah I like transmission myself
<coz_> procedure I meant
<darkmatter> coz_: I'll check it out and weigh in on my opinion after the torrent finishes, and maybe a short nap in a few hours.
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah sleep is definitly always a good thing :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  but I am interested in your perspective on the film
<darkmatter> coz_: and regarding transmission. awesome example of why more BeOS software should be ported to nix ;)
<coz_> :)  for sure !!!!!!!!
<darkmatter> since that was it's original home turf
<darkmatter> yellow tabs!
<coz_> darkmatter,  wow you just broght back a memory of that ,, I forgot about it
<darkmatter> coz_: "simple yet effective" was my favorite feature of such software.
<darkmatter> gnome3 is headed in that direction.
<darkmatter> as I stated before. regardless of your personal  opinions on shell/mutter, the application front of gnome3 is starting to remind me of the yellow tabbed wonderdog :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  If my nephew,, or If I could find the corporate edition of BeOs  with its java implimentation,, I might switch and easily convince sam to port compiz to it lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  my nephew has a copy and has never allowed me to use it ,, damn relatives
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  he used to work for Allegheny Ludlum Steel who still uses  BeOs in the manufacturing line
<coz_> among other OS's
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm still waiting for Haiku to become useful (and multiuser). I vm it occasionally. has a long way to go
<darkmatter> but is loking good for what it is
<darkmatter> looking*
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah for sure ,, I am just concerened about java implimentation
<darkmatter> coz_: aye. and flash. they're using the craptastic GNU bits for both :(
<coz_> for sure
<darkmatter> webpositive is looking good though
<coz_> darkmatter,  they did port part of KDE  to haiku if I am not mistaken
<coz_> at least the appearance of windows,, not sure ,, havent done that much searching about haiku at this point
<darkmatter> coz_: yup. including a theme engine to give it a fully native look
<darkmatter> sans icons atm
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah cool
<darkmatter> but â¥
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> they also have gtk apps on haiku, but don't think they've themed them yet
<darkmatter> so a fair selection of familar doftware
<darkmatter> stupid fingers...
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_: but imo, haiku isn't viable as a desktop OS as of yet, mainly because of the lacking multiuser support
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh thats not good news,,, damn ,, does Palm still own the rights to Be?
<coz_> darkmatter,  why the hell dont they just open source the damn thing
<darkmatter> coz_: as far as I know
<coz_> we would all be appreciative :)
<darkmatter> coz_: indeed. they freeload off of open source. they should repay us in BeBits!
<coz_> darkmatter,  absolutely,, I love  BeBits :)
<coz_> greetings
<coz_> greetings again
<coz_> bluebomber,  greetings to you as well
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm going to do several themes for shell/mutter/gtk3 and 2
<darkmatter> one of them shall be very modern, yet Be inspired
<bluebomber> Thanks, coz_
<darkmatter> shell will still be black though
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo cool... I have only seen one theme for gnome3   but  I still think it way way too young to bother with :)
<darkmatter> 'ello bluebomber
<bluebomber> Hi, darkmatter
<coz_> marcushaslam,  a welcome to you
<coz_> ivanka,   another welcome to you as well
<darkmatter> coz_: well. I was intending to get seriously involved on the design from before that recurrence I had. so am planning to know. so kinda need g3, mature or not.
<darkmatter> the theme bits are mainly personal. plus one as a suggestion for openSUSE default (they had a meeting in oS-gnome. part of it calling for distro branding for gnome), plus going to be working on the gtk2 implementation of Adwaita (that ones pretty high on the list, since want it ready by 3.2)
<darkmatter> since currently gtk2 uses clearlooks with Addy like padding, so looks outr of place
<coz_> cool
<marcushaslam> coz: thanks
<coz_> darkmatter,  I have to break here,, be back in a bit
<darkmatter> coz_: so, small bit vanilla gnome, bigger bit oS-gnome (since it's all bits except icons) and a bunch of "because I have better aesthetics taste than you!" bits :P
<darkmatter> crap. just missed that one -_-
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-05-04
<AminosAmigos> hello
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-05-05
<phanimahesh> Anyone here???
<phanimahesh> so far, I've been 'reading' things that said there are people who keep away from ubuntu coz of the orange. but today, I've seen one. And i observed that unity cannot be 'themed', as of now.  am i missing something??
#ubuntu-artwork 2014-04-28
<linseed> quit
<linuxsea> Hi room.
#ubuntu-artwork 2020-05-03
<dmitry_sharshako> Good day everyone! I've got some photos I'd like to contribute as potential Ubuntu wallpapers/lock screen images. Where should I submit them so Ubuntu Artwork team will review them?
<dmitry_sharshako> My full name is Dmitry Sharshakov, it just got truncated by IRC
