#ayatana 2009-06-22
 * MacSlow -> lunch
<MacSlow> SiDi, just trying to get my record straight... you're Steve Dodier aren't you?
<MacSlow> SiDi, the same person behind -> http://www.youtube.com/user/SiDi35 ?!
<SiDi> MacSlow: i am ;)
<SiDi> its me too
<SiDi> sidi was taken :D
<MacSlow> SiDi, ok... it always hard trying to keep up with IRC-nicks and peoples real names if they are not you colleagues
<SiDi> indeed
<SiDi> especially when you're on 10 channels all with their own people inside :)
<SiDi> oh btw MacSlow i think i heard of chances in the way sync notifications are used, do you mind explaining me what changes please ?
<MacSlow> SiDi, atm not sure what you are refereing to there... got an URL with some comment on the issue?
<SiDi> i mean, you said on an ML (not sure which) that there would be changes in g-s-d and g-p-m regarding the notifications
<SiDi> if i understood well, MacSlow 
<macvr> SiDi: changes have been made to the notify-osd guidelines, but i'm not sure if those were the ones you were looking for
<SiDi> macvr: do you know which changes ?
<SiDi> i wanna make sure it wont break xfce4-volumed which uses volume synchronous notifications
<macvr> SiDi: mostly size specs >http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD?action=diff&rev1=154&rev2=155
<djsiegel1> bratsche: do you think this could be treated as a paper cut? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/389929
<bratsche> What kind of popup menu is this talking about?  I tried a right-click menu in Firefox and I can't reproduce it.
<djsiegel1> bratsche: a gtk choice dropdown thing
<djsiegel1> I forget what it's called
<bratsche> djsiegel1: If I'm reading this correctly, it kind of seems like a bad idea.  I mean, a popup is just a menu and you can already define accelerator keys on menus.
<bratsche> So if you're typing to access a menu by the first character of the menuitem.. you've already got a potential conflict between that first character and the accelerator.
<bratsche> Or maybe it's a combobox widget.. it's hard to tell what he means.
<bratsche> I think that's what he means.
<djsiegel1> yes
<djsiegel1> combobox, bratsche
<djsiegel1> that's it
<bratsche> Yeah, I think that would be a cool thing to do.  I think people have talked about this before, not sure if there are any patches floating around yet.
<bratsche> I won't have any time to work on it this week as I'm starting on a UNR project with Neil, but if it's not urgent then I could look into it later in next week if you want.
<bratsche> djsiegel1: I linked to http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=310931
<djsiegel1> bratsche: thanks, will check now
<mrooney> djsiegel1: wow, two aggressive papercuts :) the replace dialog and unable to unmount issue
<djsiegel1> mrooney: yeah
<djsiegel1> mrooney: the replace dialog has a great patch available, so all it might need is a push
<djsiegel1> mrooney: and the unable to unmount issue might not be solvable, but we can at least make it more friendly for novice users
<magcius> The unable to unmount would be an excellent papercut to solve.
<magcius> I think using DeviceKit and PolicyKit can solve this.
<magcius> If you want to make an aggressive change like that.
<djsiegel1> magcius: well, that wouldn't be a paper cut solution
<djsiegel1> sounds like a lot of work
<ScottK> Much of which is already planned for Karmic.
<ScottK> The question would be what's the additional work required.
<mrooney> djsiegel1: did you see my comment about the replace dialog? I wasn't sure if you needed help (I could get out a PPA) or if someone at Canonical was working on that
<djsiegel1> mrooney: always assume that I need help, please :)
<djsiegel1> ScottK: oh, cool
<djsiegel1> ScottK: can you add anything to the bug report to that effect?
<ScottK> djsiegel1: You might discuss it with pitti as IIRC he's doing some of that work.
<djsiegel1> ok, thank you
<ScottK> djsiegel1: I don't know enough of the details to say anything meaningful.
<mrooney> alright I'll try to get out a nautilus 2.27 PPA with that patch, for jaunty within the next day or two
<djsiegel1> cool, mrooney
<djsiegel1> https://edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/trunk -- we have 50 now
<djsiegel1> I am going to blog and email and tweet on Friday, hopefully we can get people looking at them
<djsiegel1> I need to become a nautilus hacker
<djsiegel1> so many of these are in nautilus
<ScottK> Your time is probably better spent trying to attract nautilus hackers.
<djsiegel1> ScottK: but it would be so much easier if I could just fix these myself...
<djsiegel1> :)
<djsiegel1> ScottK: do you have any suggestions for attracting nautilus hackers? I wonder how many people are knowledgeable enough about the codebase to fix these.
<djsiegel1> 10 people? 100? 2?
<djsiegel1> The last thing I want is all of these bugs bombarding a handful of people upstream, who get overwhelmed and ignore them.
<djsiegel1> Many of them are 20, 30 line fixes that have been sitting around for 5+ years
<djsiegel1> because upstream is just backlogged
 * ScottK is a KDE guy.  No idea.
<mrooney> if there are upstream patches the best thing is probably an email to the list or pinging in IRC, if there hasn't been any feedback on the tracker
<magcius> Most developers track the mailing list but not IRC.
<magcius> Just my personal experience.
#ayatana 2009-06-23
<ubu-noob> To anyone: "Ayatana's goal is to build a set of well researched and defined technologies to help extend, improve and refine the Open Source desktop"
<ubu-noob> Does that include having oversight of some of the existing projects and projects in development?
<ubu-noob> eg.  the ubuntu-docs team is designing a slideshow that plays during the Ubiquity install
<ubu-noob> Would the Ayanta team think of giving assistance, so that the look and feel of the slideshow - which will be the first impression of Ubuntu for many of Karmic's new users - is pleasant, informative, welcoming, and consistent with the rest of Ubuntu?
<ubu-noob> ?
<ubu-noob> GreySim: we've chatted before.  Would you care to take a crack at the question I posed in the words above?
<macvr> SiDi: you forgot to cc the mailing list :P , you mailed me alone ...
<SiDi> macvr: ahah epic failure
<macvr> SiDi: i think ayatana is the only list that does that!
<SiDi> its a launchpad list
<SiDi> and yeh i have to add ayatana to recipients each time
<SiDi> and i often forget
<SiDi> macvr: whats the rationale of update proposals on login ?
<macvr> SiDi: i dont get it too... i see the only best use case for the updates that require reboot... added my thoughts to > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppCenter/Comments ...
<macvr> SiDi: even though i hate to admit it>the removal of the notification icon was a good move,  i'v questioned mpt a lot in Bug #332945 , but it makes me think less of the updates which is a good think for end users , but i'm still not in favour of the pop-unders... :P .. AFAIC users should pay much attention to the updates
<macvr> Should NOT^
 * MacSlow -> lunch
<SiDi> macvr: ok, now there is one less icon, but if the users are bored by the icons they can do their updates (or remove update-notifier from session boot)
<SiDi> now instead they randomly get popups appearing
<SiDi> that's imo much much more annoying
<SiDi> people will just want to disable update-notifier with that
<SiDi> and then they'll likely forget to update
#ayatana 2009-06-24
<macvr> anyone knows where the notify-osd logs its notifications ? i'm not able to find it!
<macvr> nevermind... :) found it.. 
<macvr> Hi... is there a way to subscribe to all the NEW hundered papaercuts as and when they are reported? i'd like to help weed out the new bugs... 
<GreySim> I think so macvr, give a moment and I'll confirm and tell you how. Computer's going a bit slow at the moment though, so bear with me please.
<macvr> GreySim: np :)
<macvr> i think they should re-label the project as "one THOUSAND papercuts" ... ;p
<GreySim> macvr: On this page, "Subscribe to bug mail" will give you new bugs, but also all other comments on bugs, I *think*: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/
<macvr> GreySim: oh...! i totally overlooked that  option!
<macvr> thanx
<GreySim> I'm not sure if it will catch the "also affects" bugs assigned either, which would mean it's basically useless for what you want, but it's the closest I know to what you want. I just don't know if it works.
<GreySim> Good luck, and hopefully it works. :)
<macvr> thanx .... :) i really feel pitty for the Design team... the bugs have reached 1003 !
<GreySim> Of which they had confirmed 50 as eligible, last I heard.
<GreySim> Anyway, I'm back to lurking and not at this computer for the most part.
 * MacSlow -> lunch
<macvr> anyone here has knowledge about one hundered papercuts? Is it only for issue that exist in Jaunty or for the older releases also? I see several bugs being posted by users of older releases , when the behavior has been modified in Jaunty
<tedg> macvr: I believe that it's really only issues that are in Karmic, but most from Jaunty carry over to Karmic.
<lamalex> macvr: if the bug is fixed, then the bug is fixed
<lamalex> so if it doesnt exist in jaunty, and is from an old release, then it's fixed
<macvr> tedg: there are so many bugs from intrepid users! which makes the project nearly a spam...
<tedg> macvr: Yeah, there is some truth to that.  Hopefully, after the initial push it'll attract more serious folks.
<macvr> lamalex: not "bugs" , but the feature requests are from intrepid and the users havent upgraded and hence the old behavior is still there! i'v been trying to weed out the papercuts, to make it easier for the devs to focus
<tedg> macvr: Initially a lot of projects start that way.
<macvr> tedg: ah... papercuts  seesm to attract even more due to its cool name :P
<macvr> seems^
<tedg> heh
<doctormo> hey tedg, how goes the notfication team?
<tedg> doctormo: We were doing well, but then everything got queued behind a bunch of Pidgin notifications so we're waiting to find out what happens next.  Another 100 messages or so and I'll know ;)
<doctormo> You should have used a "fill the entire screen with text" method, that way everything would get displayed and the user wouldn't be abe to read any of it.
<tedg> doctormo: We tried that in user testing, but it turns out we didn't have that many places to hide the bodies after the convulsions stopped :)
<lamalex> canonical office isn't tha tbig?
<lamalex> can't mark shove them his is space shuttle?
<SiDi> lamalex: yeh then we can claim we sent some sattellites over the earth for a secret feature in 12.04 or something like that
<SiDi> body-shaped sattellites
<doctormo> SiDi: Sattellites, we got enough of those thing already, take the moons for instance.
<SiDi> doctormo: the moon isnt a FOSS !
<doctormo> Yet! Aim high!
<macvr> djsiegel2: hi... there seems to be a lot of bugs piing up.. due to users not understand what papercuts project is actually intended for...
<beuno> macvr, yeah, we've been trying to figure out what to do about it
<djsiegel2> macvr: yes, I've noticed
<beuno> but it seems our hands are kind of tied
<djsiegel2> macvr: I will put together a wiki page "What is a paper cut?" but I don't think it will help at all
<djsiegel2> people don't want to hear that their pet bug is not a paper cut
<djsiegel2> Also, the term "paper cut" is too similar to the term "bug" -- people think that they are the same thing
<djsiegel2> we should have called them something like "koala bites"
<macvr> Could you list the ayatana project link for the bigger bugs , or a confirmation regarding have you read "what this project is about?" ?
<macvr> the list has gone more than 1000 , which makes the really useful bugs to get lost in the plie :(
<macvr> djsiegel2: there is a drawback to having awesome names to projects ;p
<djsiegel2> we will just have to keep invalidating them
<macvr> djsiegel2: some get really angry !
<djsiegel2> if we can get 20 people to do 5-a-day :)
<djsiegel2> macvr: yeah, I know
<beuno> I've been trying to do 10-20 a day
<beuno> invalidating
<beuno> as djsiegel2 is doing such a good job of validating  :)
<beuno> djsiegel2, maybe a blog psot about what is clearly *not* a papercut, and a cry for help in marking invalid bugs?
<djsiegel2> beuno: yeah, will do
<macvr> djsiegel2: i think you have to stop the new bugs to the project or make sure the submitter reads the intention of the project
<djsiegel2> macvr: people cannot be made to understand
<beuno> macvr, unfortunetly, we can't do that
<beuno> there's no way to shut it off
<djsiegel2> the kind of people who cry and throw a fit won't listen
<macvr> djsiegel2: stop alteast for the time being... till the present list gets sorted out... other wise it is no use
<SiDi> i must say a lot of  general IT sites just spoke about the project without saying what it is
<SiDi> a bit like "finally those linux noobs care about usability"
<SiDi> so people read that and go report crazy bugs
<SiDi> without knowing what a papercut is
<djsiegel2> Yeah, a lot of people got linked to it from reddit and digg
<djsiegel2> didnt read anything but the word "paper cut"
<djsiegel2> signed up for launchpad, reported "my suspend doesn't work"
<djsiegel2> then act up when we mark it invalid
<djsiegel2> I can't really blame them
<djsiegel2> but it created a lot of work for us
<macvr> beuno: djsiegel2 i realized Some file multiple bugs, for the same non-papercuts... its been easier to weed out those members and invalidate theirs
<beuno> macvr, true
<djsiegel2> macvr: yeah, usually when I see someone report 5 bugs in a row, I check it out
<macvr> djsiegel2: i really pitty u guys... i got fed up of just half a day of sorting stuff!
<beuno> macvr, think of the millions of people you'll make happy
<macvr> ;p
<beuno> you have to get passed the noise, and remember that croudsourcing has it's costs
<macvr> djsiegel2: just noticed that ayatana is accepting for the bigger bug... shall i tag them or only the"official" devs allowed for ayatana tags?
<djsiegel2> macvr: even 10 a day would be so helpful
<djsiegel2> and get a friend to do some
<djsiegel2> macvr: just leave that alone for now
<macvr> ok...
<djsiegel2> we don't have an official policy on that yet
<macvr> djsiegel2: oops i had just recommended it half hr back...> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/390386/comments/10 ... wont hereafter though
<SiDi> djsiegel2: macvr for usability non-trivial bugs, we mark incomplete at the moment, right ?
<SiDi> Does anyone have preformated answers to explain users why their bug is rejected as a papercut ?
<macvr> SiDi: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00408.html
<macvr> djsiegel2: SiDi: i would like a pre-formated answer list too
<SiDi> maybe there should be a more general "usability-bugs" project
<SiDi> and let papercuts be a subset of this one
<SiDi> the "most important" and "easiest to fix"
<beuno> well, we could use tags eventually
<beuno> on the ubuntu project
<macvr> beuno: worse part is some reset the status to new! 
<beuno> yeah, we can build a nice bot that un-reverts that using launchpadlib
<beuno> if it takes up too much of our resources
<macvr> Hail to the BOTS :)
<beuno> :)
<macvr> beuno: do you have any pre-formatted answers?
<beuno> macvr, yes
<beuno> Thank you for bringing this bug to our attention. Unfortunately a paper cut should be a small usability issue that affects many people and is quick and easy to fix. I'm afraid this bug can't be addressed as part of this project.
<beuno> A paper cut is a minor usability annoyance that an average user would encounter on his/her first day of using a new installation of Ubuntu 9.10.
<beuno> (that's what I use)
<macvr> thanx... :)
<macvr> SiDi: ^
<SiDi> beuno: cheers
<beuno> :)
<SiDi> i just posted with another (worse) msg
<djsiegel_> sorry, my laptop decided to shutdown instantly
<djsiegel_> very scary
<SiDi> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/122935
<SiDi> this isnt trivial, right ?
<macvr> actually it can
<macvr> SiDi: its not a bug, pzip does password archives
<macvr> p7z
<macvr> djsiegel_: could you come up with a bunch of pre-formatted answers , and add a link  to the #ayatana irc topic ? so anyone could quickly and uniformly go through the new bugs?
<djsiegel_> macvr: you can just use the one beuno gave, we have been using the same one
<djsiegel_> I always add one sentence specific to the bug though
<macvr> ok...
<macvr> SiDi: .7z password files need p7zip-full package... i'v invalidated the bug
<SiDi> macvr: do these pass protected 7z files work out of the box in file-roller's gui when the package is installed ?
<macvr> SiDi: yup
<macvr> SiDi: i double check just now
<macvr> checked^
<SiDi> okey
<SiDi> then shouldnt that be repackaged in a single 7z package with a more explicit name ,
<macvr> SiDi: actually i had not used the password .7z files for a long time , so to make sure i had to find an old file!
<macvr> SiDi: p-7zip is a minimal version, doesnt do passwords... while full does
<SiDi> macvr: why packaged in two parts ?
<SiDi> That has to be answered :]
<macvr> i read about that some where long time ago... 
<macvr> djsiegel_: if a fix has been rejected in  the main package[firefox] , then could the papercut be change to invalid too?
<macvr> I'm considering changing this to invalid > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/387822 as firefox has a wont fix status
<macvr> beuno: ^ ? thoughts?
<beuno> macvr, agreed
<beuno> yes, nuke it
<macvr> thanx.. :)
<beuno> we have enough problems
<beuno> :)
#ayatana 2009-06-25
<djsiegel__> beuno: macvr: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaperCut
<macvr> djsiegel_: is it possible to edit this page > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+filebug#form-start < rather than "Read more here" at the bottom , placing it just below the guidelines with a label : "Papercuts can help Ubuntu"
<macvr> OR some other label to make it interesting for the users to look at the wiki?
<djsiegel__> macvr: huh?
<djsiegel__> if you want to write better copy to go there, do it and I can paste it there
<djsiegel__> macvr: my mind is starting to go -- end of the day ;)
<macvr> I'm not sure how to edit launchpad... i'll try and figure it out...
<macvr> oh... i found the prob with the link!
<macvr> djsiegel_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+filebug-advanced < this is the link
<macvr> i'm literally having a headache going through the rants! so was just wondering if there was someway to prevent new bugs , by luring the users to read the wiki first... well ... gonna take a break ;p
<djsiegel__> macvr: no, unfortunately there isn't
<djsiegel__> take a break if you are getting a headache :)
<macvr> :(
<djsiegel__> can you point me at some of these rants?
<macvr> ah pls.... i dont want to look back.:(
<djsiegel__> ok :)
<macvr> its more because i'v subscribed to the papercuts project, so i get every mail in the project, some i get interested, and jump in... 
<macvr> beuno: hi... does this seem like a simple papercut?https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rdesktop/+bug/251709 . its more of a non-regular user issue , can i mark it as invalid only in papaercuts ?
 * MacSlow -> lunch
<mpt> macvr, you're correct, that's not a paper cut in our current definition
<macvr> thanx :)
<macvr> mpt: are you also part of papercuts?
<mpt> macvr, I wish I had time to, but I don't really :-]
<macvr> this thing is getting out of hand!
<macvr> people keep assigning old bugs to this project! :(
<macvr> djsiegel_: hi... something you might be interested in > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/388121
 * djsiegel_ looks
<djsiegel_> macvr: yes, I love this bug
<macvr> :)
<tedg> djsiegel_: Not really a papercut though.  Upstream for gnome-session is convinced it shouldn't really do this and that all programs should be rewritten to always save data instantly.  It will take use implementing it well in gnome-session to get it fixed.  There was some (very late) work for Jaunty, but I'm not sure if it'll continue.
<djsiegel_> tedg: Oh, for sure it's not a paper cut
<djsiegel_> and I am more interested in the visual behavior of shutdown (see my comment)
<djsiegel_> macvr: keep up the great work on paper cuts! :)
<macvr> djsiegel_: i'm getting addicted to nuking... :)
<djsiegel_> hehe
<djsiegel_> be careful
<djsiegel_> one day I did a few hundred bugs
<djsiegel_> with each bug, I got faster
<djsiegel_> more curt
<macvr> :)
<djsiegel_> by the end of the day, I was marking invalid with very little explanation or gratitude to the reporter
<djsiegel_> but you seem to be doing a very good job with your comment template approach
<djsiegel_> macvr: oh, and one thing to look out for
<macvr> I give an explanation , why this isnt a papercut...
<djsiegel_> hundredpapercuts is drawing a lot of new blood into our community
<djsiegel_> User experience *professionals* who want to help out in open source for the first time
<macvr> djsiegel_: haha^
<djsiegel_> if you find a person like that reporting a bug (you may be able to tell from how they report it)
<djsiegel_> handle them with kid gloves
<djsiegel_> we don't want them to be discouraged
<macvr> :)
<djsiegel_> we *really* need them to stick around, they are really valuable
<macvr> yeah...
<djsiegel_> in a few years, we could have hundredpapercuts projects springing up all over the place
<djsiegel_> just like regular OSS projects
<djsiegel_> but complementary \
<macvr>  I mostly nuke the simple ones, rarely the bigger ones...
<djsiegel_> heck, we could have that in a few months
<macvr> djsiegel_: i wonder who's idea this was?
<macvr> yours?
<djsiegel_> I don't think it was mine
<djsiegel_> I did a project like with with GNOME Do
<macvr> naming?
<djsiegel_> like this*
<djsiegel_> I think it was conceived by the canonical design team
<macvr> i really digg the name , i think it has drawn more attention to the unique name
<macvr> due to^
<djsiegel_> the power of branding
<macvr> yeah... 
<djsiegel_> macvr: here is my ideal way hundredpapercuts would work
<djsiegel_> we have a pool of thousands of confirmed paper cuts
<djsiegel_> each cycle, we pick 100
<djsiegel_> then, 100 community members step up, and each person claims a paper cut
<macvr> nice
<djsiegel_> they go out and do some user testing, gather data, and make a design suggestion
<djsiegel_> it gets fixed, and they blog about it
<djsiegel_> we get everyone really interested in user-centered design, and Linux usability grows by leaps and bounds
<macvr> :) happy days
<djsiegel_> if we had 100 people driving user testing each cycle...
<djsiegel_> wow
<djsiegel_> maybe that can be a goal for ayatana
<djsiegel_> we could create a UCD certification
<djsiegel_> and have our goal be to get 100 people certified
<djsiegel_> and create an ayatana planet where all of their blog posts about open source usability in Ubuntu are collected
<djsiegel_> wow
<macvr> i think UCD already exists
<djsiegel_> yes, it does
<djsiegel_> we just want to put the spotlight on it
<macvr> but sometimes too many cooks, could be bad too... ;p
<djsiegel_> right now, design concerns take a back seat to technical concerns, because s/he who commits the patch makes the rules.
<djsiegel_> but I have to get going
<macvr> djsiegel_: apart from papercuts... there is one issue which is a big bother > when users upgrade from old releases to new , cruft from previous releases remain , these traces of the old config do not allow proper functioning of the new features in the new release... something needs to be done about that...
<macvr> ok...
<djsiegel_> yeah, that doesn't seem like an ayatana issue
<djsiegel_> but an issue for sure
<djsiegel_> I think Ubuntu's ability to freely and massively update every 6 months is one of our greatest incentives for users to pick Ubuntu over  Mac OS or Windows
<macvr> thats what drew me in :)
<djsiegel_> if we could ensure that a single install could update seamlessly, every six months, for a decade, that would be a great victory
<macvr> that would be great ^
<djsiegel_> Apple and Microsoft simply will never be able to move that fast
<djsiegel_> Whenever I take a 5 or 6-year old Dell that barely works, and put the latest and greatest release of Ubuntu on it for friends, they go wild
<djsiegel_> "wow, it's fast"
<djsiegel_> "wow, this software is all up-to-date"
<djsiegel_> "Buy a PC with Ubuntu, and your software will never be more than 6 months old, and will never cost you anything"
<macvr> ^ yeah i get the same reactions
<djsiegel_> ivanka: ^ brand proposition
<macvr> djsiegel_: i just brought this up with you, so that you could bring it up in a related meeting/discussion sometime.... IF you remember... :)
<djsiegel_> I will remember, it's part of my job :)
<macvr> :)
<macvr> djsiegel_: you were mentioning about >  User experience *professionals* , i dont think i'v encountered them yet... but do you know who they are? a heads up would be nice... so that i could add more specific info to the comments...
<macvr> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/392241 ...lol!
<djsiegel_> macvr: don't use SCREAMING CAPS
<djsiegel_> please
<djsiegel_> macvr: also, you have some weird indentation in some of your sentences
<macvr> screaming caps? where? 
<macvr> sometimes... i use it more to highlight... ,  i think that full caps sentences are screaming.. i didnt intend as screaming...  i will wbe more careful though :)
<macvr> djsiegel_: could you give me an example where i did this? so that i could correct?
<djsiegel_> "ONLY" "IF" and "BUT"
<djsiegel_> some people might find it patronizing
<macvr> oh... ok.
<macvr> i was just trying that as highlight, since formatting isnt possible..
<macvr> djsiegel_: Also, you were mentioning about >  User experience *professionals* , i dont think i'v encountered them yet... but do you know who they are? a heads up would be nice... so that i could add more specific info to the comments...
<djsiegel_> just be on the lookout for someone who seems new, who genuinely wants to gather data or do user testing
<djsiegel_> if they cite a source, for example, they probably have some experience
<macvr> ok...
<djsiegel_> if they say "we did a study and found that..."
<djsiegel_> some people use language like "I think" or "I would like"
<macvr> I'v never encountered those yet... , but i saw 1 blogger , and made sure i was very informative :)
<djsiegel_> that's a sign that they are just giving their opinion
<djsiegel_> and maybe not considering the needs of users
<macvr> will watch out... :)
<mrooney> macvr: also I don't see why that couldn't be a bug, windows don't need to be on top to have focus
<macvr> mrooney: the option is "Always on top" , correct me if I'm wrong, AFAIK  it means always display the window on top...  
<mrooney> macvr: but the bug report is about focus not z-order
<mrooney> I have windows focused below other windows all the time
<mrooney> just mark a window as always on top, then click in a window under it, it will have focus
<mrooney> the report is just saying that it should get focus from the beginning
<macvr> mrooney: oh.. ok.. 
<macvr> mrooney: thats why i had mentioned that if he still felt it was a bug , to assign it to the package :)
<mrooney> macvr: okay but "This is not a bug , because the user clearly has turned on the always on top feature. So the window IS going to be on top. And no window can make it loose focus." is objectively wrong
<mrooney> I'll open a compiz task and add a comment mentioning that
<macvr> mrooney: i have tried to reproduce the bug, the Alt +F2  has the focus, not the window on top...
<macvr> mrooney: you might want to try and reproduce it...
<mrooney> right, I can't reproduce it, my comments weren't about that
<mrooney> I just wanted to point you were confusing z-order and focus and gave the reporter incorrect information :)
<macvr> got it..
#ayatana 2009-06-26
<macvr> is anyone having problems with launchpad?
<lamalex> does being awesome count as a problem
<macvr> lamalex: from  earlier: " An appserver is broken, so 1/8 requests fail after a minute."
<macvr> that was from #launchapd^
 * MacSlow -> lunch
* mat_t changed the topic of #ayatana to: https://edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/karmic ? every fix is a small victory...
* mat_t changed the topic of #ayatana to: https://edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/karmic - every fix is a small victory...
<macvr> djsiegel_: coudl you edit the wiki, to add that hardware specific issues are not part of the papercuts?
<macvr> could^
<djsiegel_> well, harware specific issues are usually not easy to fix, and do not affect most users
<djsiegel_> you need more reason than that?
<djsiegel_> or just a specific mention?
<macvr> just a mention in the wiki...
<macvr> people have reported , webcam/graphics/audio cards!
<macvr> just increases the workload :(
<macvr> djsiegel_: they just add that this has affected several users in ubuntuforums!
<djsiegel_> oh come on
<djsiegel_> just say, this does not afect the average user because the average user doesn't have your webcam/graphics/audiocard
<macvr> that is a common line in most of the descriptions 
<macvr> i just mention that since its hardware specific , its not papercut
<lamalex> i think the problem is that people dont know what usability means
<lamalex> "i use it, so it's usability"
<macvr> ^ +!
<lamalex> "my webcam doesnt work- i can't use it! it's not usable!
<macvr> there are so many of those... some even add, "since i'v seen this initiative , i think this is my only chance" ... i feel bad to invalidate those :(
<ScottK> Fundamentally there is a lot more stuff broken than we have developers, so most of these issues don't get dealt with.  Generally the best we can do is upstream the bug and hope they deal with it.
<macvr> djsiegel_: what previous bug is he talking about? https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/388546
<djsiegel_> macvr:  ignore Kirk Fraser
<macvr> quite a friendly guy :p
<djsiegel_> macvr: he is not an Ubuntu user, he is a troll, and I am pretty sure he spam filters all launchpad email
<SiDi> MacSlow: ping ?
<MacSlow> SiDi, hey what's up?
<SiDi> fine
<SiDi> I wanted to ask you, when will we actually be able to change notify-osd's colours ?
<SiDi> there are users that complain because they _cant_ read white on black
<MacSlow> SiDi, you have to get that to the design folks... not me
<SiDi> oh
<SiDi> hm who is it again ? :P
<MacSlow> SiDi, e.g. mat_t, djsiegel_, mpt, ivanka
<SiDi> okey
<SiDi> but is there any restriction in the moment that would prevent it ?
<SiDi> is it easy for you to implement theming in notify-osd ?
<MacSlow> no
<MacSlow> theming is never easy
<artir> this is awesome-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicBootExperienceDesignSpec
<artir> :)
<MacSlow> SiDi, side-effects are numerous
<MacSlow> SiDi, the more freedom you want in theming the more complex it gets to implement that
<SiDi> MacSlow: what side effects should be expected if we just allow picking a different bg and text colour ? not changing the size / font / style, just colors ?
<SiDi> apart from cleverasses choosing grey on grey, of course
<MacSlow> SiDi, very briefly I wanted to do notify-osd in pure gtk, but that did not allow the flexibility needed to implement all the spacing and layout requirements from the spec
<MacSlow> SiDi, _if_ it would only be that it would be easy... just add two additional gconf-keys
<MacSlow> SiDi, but then you introduce headaches in the update/upgrade migration process
<SiDi> MacSlow: thats what i'm asking for. There are people who have visual defficiencies and who suffer from reading on black backgrounds
<MacSlow> SiDi, it's not really my decision
<SiDi> I understand that
<SiDi> i'll mail ayatana then about this issue
<MacSlow> SiDi, best approach for sure
<macvr> djsiegel_: hi... busy?
<djsiegel_> macvr: what's up?
<djsiegel_> just got back from lunch
<macvr> djsiegel_: nothing much but... i wanted your opinion on this> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/367626 < be warned it is something i had filed 
<macvr> i found the same behavior in Karmic exists, hibernate doesnt ask for confirmation still!
<djsiegel_> hmm
<djsiegel_> well, the argument is that hibernate is non-destructive, Ibet
<macvr> shall i nuke it?
<rgreening> kwwii: ping
<kwwii> rgreening: pong
<rgreening> hey man. Want to help create an appropriate icon for usb-creator-kde?
<kwwii> rgreening: sure, I imagine I can help...I made the oxygen usb device icon as well :p
<rgreening> kwwii: here's the original gtk one: http://imagebin.ca/view/9qaxEYqp.html
<kwwii> rgreening: in fact, I am giving a chat on making an oxygen icon sunday night, perhaps I could use this as an example
<rgreening> cool
<kwwii> gtk? gtk? we don't need no stinking gtk!
<rgreening> lol
<kwwii> hehe, I will make something
<rgreening> kwwii: here's my weak attempt... http://imagebin.ca/view/BdG-M6p.html
<rgreening> Of course, not oxygenized :)
<kwwii> to be honest, it would be better to put it on a stick instead of a hard-disk, or?
<rgreening> Yeah.
<rgreening> Sounds good
<kwwii> well, we definitely don't want to use the human icon for this
<kwwii> only the oxygen style
<rgreening> yep. I assume in svg?
<kwwii> yes, everything is done in svg (well, at least the first steps)
<rgreening> cool. 
<rgreening> ty.
<kwwii> give me a day or two and I'll get back to you
<rgreening> np
<kwwii> the chat is sunday at 22UTC
<kwwii> so it should be done by then
<rgreening> Im usingmy crappy one for now. :)
<rgreening> ok. cool stuff
<kwwii> it is a good place-holder and makes sure nobody forgets :)
<kwwii> the ubuntu icon is pretty crappy, really
<kwwii> proving that I don't do this stuff enough
<kwwii> or it would bug me and I would fix it :p
<kwwii> I used to use the usb creator a lot when I had a mobile device from canonical but since they took it back there is no reason to sue it
<kwwii> use
<kwwii> anyway
<kwwii> I will be in touch
<ScottK> kwwii: But now you'll be able to use it to install KDE on the device you don't have, so it's much better.
<kwwii> lol, no doubt
<macvr> kwwii: how was Transformers?
<kwwii> macvr: my son is only 11 and they wouldn't let him in :p
<kwwii> pg in bavaria is a bit different than anywhere else
<macvr> ;p
<kwwii> so we saw night in a museum 2
<kwwii> I told him we will go back tomorrow and he can say is already 12 :p
<kwwii> they have it figured out...the childrends ticket is up to 12 but children cannot get into pg films, even with a parent unless they are 12
#ayatana 2009-06-27
<SiDi> Any idea why a notification's png/jpg icon would be blur knowing i _dont_ resize it ?
<SiDi> Why did the font become so tiny in notify-osd's trunk version ?
<SiDi> http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/557/capture1v.png
#ayatana 2009-06-28
<lamalex> what did you guys think of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZvwyxJ9vk
<hyperair> it looks awesome
<lamalex> yah, It's hard to tell if it's 100% mockup or if someone has really implemented this
#ayatana 2010-06-28
<seif_> djsiegel, i uploaded a branch for unity-place-files that does not view files which paths are not reachable
<djsiegel> seif_: not reachable?
<seif_> as in deleted or moved
<seif_> djsiegel, ^
<djsiegel> ah, right, they should definitely not be displayed
<djsiegel> I suggest you report a bug against unity and propose a merge on those grounds
<seif_> +i did
<djsiegel> saweet
<seif_> djsiegel, patched and fiels a bug
<seif_> djsiegel, what about thumbviews
<djsiegel> nice dude
<seif_> i mean thumbnails
<seif_> do u want to view thumbnails of images and videos
<djsiegel> Yes
<seif_> ok awesome
<fagan> hmmm got a weird bug with unity yesterday when I tried it
<seif_> djsiegel, i will put my gsoc student on it
<djsiegel> seif_: awesome
<seif_> djsiegel, he ported seze nto vala to make the transition to unity devleopement for us easier
<seif_> we have the code for it
<seif_> :)
<djsiegel> that is insanely awesome
<seif_> ok 
<fagan> oh seif_ I could help a little with that 
<seif_> i am summoning him to do this work
 * fagan <3 vala
<seif_> fagan, the port is done
<seif_> we ported to vala already
<djsiegel> can't wait until we can port all of this vala to C# ;)
<seif_> mhr3, can u push ur pixbuf cache to unity
<seif_> mhr3, bzr branch lp:unity-place-files
<mhr3> seif_, i can try
<fagan> djsiegel: is there a bug reported yet about the unity launcher not going away when you open a full screen app like a game?
<mhr3> but it's slow and i dont like it :P
<seif_> mhr3, its better than what they have now :)
<djsiegel> fagan: I am not launchpad!
<mhr3> ah ok :)
<fagan> djsiegel: lol 
<djsiegel> :)
<fagan> ill go looking then 
<seif_> djsiegel, are u interested in drag and drop support
<fagan> I tested it out last night and tried to open a game and the launcher kept focus 
<djsiegel> seif_: yes, files are draggable to the Launcher
<seif_> djsiegel, i think "Today" could be used as a pinboard
<seif_> imagine dragging 4 files form last week into today
<djsiegel> seif_: nope
<djsiegel> this is hands-off
<seif_> ok ok
<seif_> just asking
<djsiegel> no, I mean, let's not add opportunities for users to organize files themselves
<djsiegel> we already have too many
<seif_> ok
<seif_> good idea
<djsiegel> Files place is nice because it alleviates that burden a bit
<seif_> djsiegel, ok i will push ammonkey to patch nautilus to tell us when something is moved
<seif_> this way when u move something aorund zeitgeist can change its uris :)
<seif_> thus never losing trace
<djsiegel> seif_: hmm
<djsiegel> can we patch at a lower level?
<djsiegel> because moves can initiate anywhere
<seif_> djsiegel, gio?
<djsiegel> right
<seif_> inotify sucks
<djsiegel> njpatel: ^
<seif_> so what i can do is write a zeitgeist extension that takes in such "move" operations and updates the DB
<seif_> and some1 patch gio or whatever to inform us
<fagan> Ok bug reported 
<fagan> djsiegel: how could you not have a launchpad account if do is on there 
<fagan> lol
 * fagan only figured that out now
<djsiegel> I thought I said "I'm not Launchpad!"
<djsiegel> did I say "I'm not on launchpad!" by mistake?
<djsiegel> I am on Launchpad :)
<fagan> Oh you did whoops 
<fagan> I can read just not today for some reason 
<seif_>  njpatel there?
<seif_> njpatel, we have a zeitgeist issue that could be solved if gio is patched
<seif_> djsiegel, found something in gio
<seif_> g_file_monitor_directory ()
<seif_> however dunno how muhc it depends on inotify
#ayatana 2010-06-29
<tawmas> Hello! I've just started testing Unity on my netbook. I totally love the concept, but I wonder if there's the possibility that the launcher will gain the ability to be hidden on non-touch devices
<tawmas> I know this is not in the plans, but I wonder if it might be reconsidered
<tawmas> The reason why I ask is that the launcher is forcing some websites (including high profile websites like flickr) to scroll horizontally
<tawmas> this doesn't look like a nice property to have in a design
<mhall119> Hi, every once in a while my indicator applet gets stuck on green, but the menu doesn't show any new messages, and I have no way to clear the icon's status
<mhall119> any idea what could cause this?
<mhall119> the only thing in my menu is my Gmail+IMAP account in Evolution, which has 0 new messages, and it always displayed
<mhall119> weird, now it's not green anymore.....
<mhall119> http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7888/ayatana.png is what it looked like while it was green
<qense> mhall119: That's probably worth a bug report. You should take a look at the log files in ~/.cache/
#ayatana 2010-06-30
<doctormo> mpt: Did you send a message to the starfish team? Can't seem to approve it, disappeared.
<mpt> doctormo, yes, just now
<mpt> feel free to forward it on
<doctormo> mpt: If I ever get it, nothing yet.
<doctormo> I just got the admin message saying it was queued.
<mpt> joy
<mpt> doctormo, https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg03182.html
<doctormo> mpt: Ah thanks, yes I see your points. Seahorse is really a different tool, it looks after keys and well bureaucracy removal is the job at hand, all that end to end is either platform or application.
<mpt> doctormo, be fearless and cross the application boundaries with your designs. Otherwise we'll just have years more of the status quo, e.g. ~0% of e-mail being encrypted.
<mpt> doctormo, <http://www.templetons.com/brad/crypt.html> may provide some inspiration on that particular use case.
<doctormo> mpt: I'd like to do as you suggest and have the use cases end to end, but I'd also like to consider the edu and discoverability cases which seem to be missing from most use cases (which assume the objective is encryption).
<qense> good afternoon
<and471> tedg: I shall speak to you here then
<and471> tedg, I am using vala/genie to implement an appindicator
<and471> tedg, I am subclassing the appindicator and I have got it to work except one thing
<and471> tedg, it doesn't show
<and471> tedg, the code is here lp:~and471/+junk/not-working
<and471> tedg, basically, the weird thing is that when I put all the functions in the init of the subclass into a function, and then call with Gtk.main() - it works
<and471> tedg, the people on the vala mailing list said it might be worthwile compiling to C and then showing it to you, to see if you could see a problem
<and471> tedg, would this be useful?
<tedg> and471, Uhm, yes.  But first ensure that you're setting the status.  The default is PASSIVE, which means it won't show.
<and471> tedg, yes that is set, I have uploaded the C files to this branch, along with the genie code
<and471> tedg, https://code.launchpad.net/~and471/+junk/not-working
<and471> tedg, by the way, you only really need to look at main.c and indicator.c
<tedg> and471, Hmm, nothing stands out.  Let me look a little more.
<and471> tedg, thankyou for this :-)
<jcastro> and471: what application are you working on? (out of curiosity)
<and471> jcastro, https://launchpad.net/wasiliana
<and471> jcastro, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/06/elementary-inspired-mail-client-looks.html and http://whyareyoureadingthisurl.wordpress.com/2010/06/14/introducing-the-wasiliana-mail-client/
<jcastro> oh cool!
<and471> :)
<vish> hehe , just got a mail from someone writing ... the RB icon[app indicators] suck! :)
 * vish sends links
<tedg> gord, Could you look at and471 Vala code above?  I can't see any issue with it, but perhaps I'm missing something.
<tedg> gord, He's trying to subclass AppIndicator
<gord> lemme see what i can see
<gord> i can't really see any problems, but then again i know almost nothing about genie. can't build it either because there is not valide on maverick
<and471> gord, you don't need valide
<and471> just use..
<and471> valac --save-temps --pkg gtk+-2.0 --pkg gee-1.0 --pkg gobject-2.0 --pkg webkit-1.0 --pkg appindicator-0.1 --vapidir=../vapi main.gs indicator.gs main_window.gs
<and471> tedj: any luck?
<and471> tedg: any luck?
<and471> vish, it just worked for me again
<and471> installed ubuntu in VM
<and471> opened SC
<and471> installed artha
<and471> opened artha
<and471> it all worked
<vish> and471: really odd , when i select the text it and ctrl+alt+w , it doesnt show the synonyms for me :s
<and471> does the window appear?
<and471> vish, the main window
<and471> vish, does the notification icon appear?
<vish> and471: nope , when i click the icon the window appears , but not when i highlight and press keycombo
<and471> how strange..
<and471> vish, what app do u use?
<and471> vish, in what app do you highlight?
<vish> and471: FF
<and471> do you have the VM handy?
<and471> vish, could you do it in gedit or something?
<vish> and471: just a sec
<and471> kl
<vish> and471: nope , gedit , i typed , selected , crtl+alt+W > nada! ;)
<and471> vish, ah well
<and471> vish, gotta go now
<and471> vish, see ya
<vish> and471: cya
#ayatana 2010-07-01
<ShroudedCloud> Is it possible, with an indicator written in Python, that, when an item is clicked to not have the indicator menu close?
<ShroudedCloud> (But to update in response to that click)
<seb128> I'm not sure it's something possible without hacks, it's not how menus work in gtk and there is no reason those menus should be different
<seb128> but check with tedg when he's around in some hours
<ShroudedCloud> I only ask because I noticed that the new sound indicator does this.
<ShroudedCloud> (When clicking the play/pause button)
<seb128> well that's a button not a menu entry
<seb128> and it's open source so get the indicator-sound code if you want ;-)
<ShroudedCloud> Excellent point... lol
<ShroudedCloud> Thanks!
<ShroudedCloud> Wow, clearly in over my head on that, thank-you anyway for the help!
<jcastro> hey vish 
<jcastro> for monochrome icons we ship those in a seperate package right? 
<jcastro> we don't put a new icon in each package for tomboy, etc. do we?
<vish> jcastro: hey , yeah , everything is in the ubuntu-mono package
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> vish: ok, one more question, heh, is there a process for asking for artwork from the art team?
<jcastro> I've been doing "ask ken" but want to do it the right way if there is one
<vish> jcastro: sadly no.. we dont have anything similar to gnomeart/requests   ..what can be done is probably ask in the artwork mailing list [which is sorta dead for a few months :s]
<jcastro> ok
<philinux> Hi, I'm an ubuntu forums mod. I'd just like to know if the default bookmarks in firefox are going to get updated for Maverick?
<seb128> hi, try #ubuntu-mozilla or whatever chan the firefox guys use? 
<philinux> Cheers Seb, I was going to raise a bug but got pointed to ayatana
<seb128> hum? ayatana is where dx work is done
<seb128> ie indicators, notify-osd, unity
<seb128> not really firefox
<philinux> Ok thanks for the pointer to the mozilla guys
<dutchie> is there an indicator applet for caps/num/scroll lock?
<seb128> not that I know about no
<LaserJock> is there anything special I need to install to get window titles/controls in Unity (lucid)?
<LaserJock> davidbarth: I've got a Unity question for you if you have a minute
<LaserJock> davidbarth: it seems that apps that don't have .desktop files don't show up in the side bar. Given the importance of the side bare for navigation would it be possible to have a generic icon or something?
<seif_> jcastro, whats the state of windicators
<jcastro> seif_: no clue, I'm on the menu this cycle
<seif_> oh ok
<seif_> hmmmmmmmmmm
<seif_> any idea who is on it?
<jcastro> dbarth would know
<seif_> davidbarth, hi
<davidbarth> jcastro: for LaseJock (i missed the question, was away): bamf requires .desktop files for matching yes; normally we have a default icon for when we don't have one; can he file a bug if there's no matching at all?
<Mark__T> what does libindicate mono for?
<Mark__T> need ^
<Mark__T> is it possible to build libindicate without mon?
<tedg> kenvandine_, Ah, you do have a listener here :)  Mark__T was asking about building libindicate.  So this is a ping to check the scrollback when you get back :)
<DrHalan> hey
<DrHalan> i was wondering why unclutter isn't hideing tooltips...
#ayatana 2010-07-02
<and471> tedg, did you have any luck with the vala stuff?
<tedg> and471, No, I wasn't.  gord, did you see anything odd? 
<gord> tedg, and471  i couldn't find anything weird but something weird is going on. i ported the python sample to vala and that seemed to work just fine
<tedg> gord, Are we missing some sort of hint in the VAPI file for subclassing?
<gord> tedg, i don't think so
<and471> gord, tedg I also ported the python sample :-) that worked fine, it does seem to be when subclassing occurs that is goes wrong
<and471> gord, do you want to see my vapi file?
<gord> and471, you should just be using the vapi file we supply. tedg is it in lucid or just maverick?
<and471> gord, I took the vapi off a bug report and modified it as it wasn't working
<and471> gord, didn't realise you shipped one (I am on Lucid)
<and471> tedg, also when I was working with subclassing I had some trouble and contacted the vala mailing list, after we got some of it working, they guy on the list said "(the value [AppIndicatorCategory] is an enum in the constructor and internally, but is exposed as a string to gobject). I think you should report this."
<and471> tedg, should I file a bug for this?
<tedg> and471, If you grab the newer packages it builds a VAPI, but I imagine it's close to the same.
<tedg> and471, I think that string/enum issue is also fixed.
<tedg> and471, Try to grab trunk.
<and471> tedg, ok
<and471> jono, who leads the lernid project now?
<and471> jono, I was looking for a decision on https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/546968
<ubot5> Launchpad bug 546968 in lernid (Ubuntu) "Inappropriately appears in Ubuntu Software Center "Developer Tools" > "Python" (affected: 2, heat: 12)" [Low,Confirmed]
<and471> tedg, where is the vapi file?
<and471> gord, tedg, I just did the normal, make, sudo make install routine but that enum string issue still appears to be there, don't know where the vapi file is, not in the normal place
<and471> gord, tedg would you advise that I stop trying to subclass and just go for a set of functions until the future?
<jono> and471, Michael Budde
<seb128> and471, libappindicator-dev: /usr/share/vala/vapi/AppIndicator-0.1.vapi
<seb128> and471, ?
<tedg> and471, Hmm, okay.  I'm confused then on what the issue is (with the strings/enums).
<tedg> and471, Honestly, unless you need custom fallbacks, subclassing is probably more work than it's worth.
<and471> tedg, okay, I might just go for functions then
<and471> tedg, the string enum issue is that I have to include this function in the subclass
<and471> tedg, http://pastebin.com/6JLRerdP
<and471> tedg, becuase otherwise if I don't convert it, I get an error that
<and471> tedg, Cannot convert from `AppIndicator.Category' to `string'
<tedg> and471, Hmm, okay.  Perhaps we need two properties then.  One that's the enum and one that's the string.
<tedg> and471, Dbus needs the string one, but we could make another for lib side things.
<tedg> I think that qense was looking into that for Mono as well.
<and471> tedg, kl
<and471> tedg, well I think i shall switch to functions then
<and471> tedg, hopefully then it shall work :-)
<and471> tedg, damn it, I am having issues again
<and471> tedg, it all works if I put Gtk.main() at the end of the function which creates a new Indicator
<tedg> and471, Sorry, only one issue per day :)
<and471> tedg, but not if I just have one Gtk.main() for all Gtk elements
<and471> tedg, ;)
<tedg> and471, Could it be a vala ref thing?  Like you're ref'ing locally instead of globally so the object is getting destroyed?
<and471> tedg, I think I shall go on the mailing list, it may not just appindicator
<and471> tedg, probably, but as a previous python programmer, i don't know what that is :)
<tedg> Heh, okay.
<and471> tedg, thanks for your help
#ayatana 2010-07-04
<toogreen> hi there, are you guys open to some friendly, constructive criticism about Unity?
#ayatana 2011-06-27
<unitysucks> hello
<unitysucks> i hate unity , but i love ibintu , could i get gnome 2 on ubuntu 11.04
<Omega> unitysucks: that's unfortunate, but this is not a support channel, try #ubuntu
<chewyTree> Omega, Are you able to set this as a wishlist item for me? https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/779088
<ubot5> Ubuntu bug 779088 in unity (Ubuntu) "Unity's top panel's size" [Undecided,New]
<Omega> No, but I did add ayatana design to the bug, so they can look at it.
<chewyTree> Omega, Ok thanks.  What do you recommend i set as the status, opinion?
<Omega> Did you report the bug?
<Omega> (If you did, you shouldn't change it)
<chewyTree> no i didnt, just caught my eye
<chewyTree> Omega, Ill just set it to opinion, and then when someone comes on later ill ask for the importance to be set to wishlist
<chewyTree> Omega, Thanks for the help though.
<wes000000> how do i use bazaar?
<andyrock> morning people!
<thumper> hi andyrock
<andyrock> thumper, hey
<thumper> andyrock: sprinting this week, so I'll be in your TZ for a change
<andyrock> thumper, dublin right?
<thumper> yep
<thumper> I'm just closing up for now, back in approx 90 minutes - morning plenaries and all
<andyrock> thumper, i miss UDS environment! :)
<andyrock> bye bye... i'have to go! (school exam)
<mgedmin> indicator-datetime-preferences fails to start because of some unspecified dbus timeout; is there something I can do to file a useful bug?
<mgedmin> "(indicator-datetime-preferences:17172): Unique-DBus-WARNING **: Error while sending message: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken."
<mgedmin> apparently I already have a copy of indicator-datetime-preferences, started 15 minutes ago, which is not showing any windows or doing anything
<mgedmin> strace tells me it's blocked on a futex
<mgedmin> killing it works and lets new indicator-datetime-preferences processes start up
 * mgedmin can't reproduce, gives up trying to make unity better, at least for today
<Gigatroll> How can I delete Unity?
<Gigatroll> I hate it
<andyrock> Gigatroll, don't like it? just don't use it
<cdbs> Gigatroll: Your nick ends with "troll" so we took your statement as a troll attempt :D
<cdbs> andyrock: Use gnome-panel (select gnome classic session), or use gnome-shell from the gnome3-team PPA
<cdbs> andyrock: use kde by installing kubuntu-desktop, use xfce by installing xubuntu-desktop or use lxde by installing lubuntu-desktop. With ubuntu you have a ton of choices, just pick one
<Gigatroll> cdbs: Thanks
<cdbs> Gigatroll: what do you hate in Unity? Could you please elaborate?
<Gigatroll> I can't find my apps, the dock gets in the way, i can't find the admin or preferences menu
<Gigatroll> and it doesn't seem to respect my metacity tweak to have the window icons on the right
<cdbs> Gigatroll: you have System Settings in the shutdown menu
<Gigatroll> ah ok, I see... but why are they there?
<cdbs> Gigatroll: finding apps is easier with the applications lense, I find it faster to find apps, it just needs a bit of getting used to
<Gigatroll> so I need to type?
<andyrock> cdbs, i don't hate unity... i am helping with bitesize and backlog bugs!
<andyrock> ;)
<cdbs> andyrock: oops, mistake, blame the inability to multitask in the human brain :)
<cdbs> andyrock: do a /whois of me and you'll understand how I know you and how you know me :)
<andyrock> andyrock, i know you! Bilal (i don't know if it is the right way to write it!)
<cdbs> andyrock: now you've made a mistake by mentioning yourselves
<cdbs> Gigatroll: yeah, you need to type
<cdbs> Gigatroll: but its faster than nudging through menus
<cdbs> MUCH faster
<cdbs> and lesser irritating
<cdbs> Gigatroll: all I do is hit the super key, type the first few letters of the name and press enter
<andyrock> cdbs, ops... i have just finished an exam!
<cdbs> Gigatroll: no need to get to the mouse and back on the keyboard. Everything can be done with the keyboard
<cdbs> Gigatroll: and if you like to do things with the mouse, well, right-click the applications lense icon and select a category to be listed with apps
<Gigatroll> cdbs: It misses one key usecase though
<Gigatroll> A pretty important one in my view
<cdbs> which is?
<Gigatroll> What if I simply wanted to see what was installed?
<Gigatroll> Now I know I could probably do this using the software centre but what if I was new to Ubuntu?
<cdbs> Gigatroll: click on the applications lense icon, click "Show all" next to "installed applications" and there you have it, a grid of icons (not like iOS' , though) which contains icons of all applications
<Gigatroll> Ok
<Gigatroll> Well this is good to know
<Gigatroll> I've been using Ubuntu for 5 years now and I felt out of my depth
<cdbs> Gigatroll: Dig in deep, spend some time with things, and you'll like it a lot. I hate people who say no on the first impression
<cdbs> Gigatroll: I agree unity doesn't give a very good impressing in the beginning, but once you get used to it, you won't leave it
<Gigatroll> mmm but it did feel like a big change with very little warning
<cdbs> give it a week's time, and you'll find yourself pressing super+number keys in windows :D
<Gigatroll> yes that's true, people are saying they should've "introduced" it better
<cdbs> Change is inevitable
<cdbs> 10 years ago computers were a luxury, now they're a necessity
<cdbs> you need to be able to do things faster
<cdbs> </offtopic>
<Gigatroll> Well I'll have to give it another go tomorrow then
<lucazade> hi! quick question: will applet-indicators work with new gnome-panel based on gtk3?
<cdbs> lucazade: They might work one day, but not right now
<cdbs> lucazade: And I don't think that making them work with it, is an aim for oneiric
<cdbs> gotta go
<lucazade> cdbs: thanks for info..
<jo-erlend> when I used super+num to switch an application on another workspace, it used to focus that workspace. That no longer happens here. Is that by design?
<TheMuso> Kaleo: I'm just building your unity s3 a11y snapshot on Oneiric, and will test tomorrow morning or tonight if I get a chance, hoewver I would like to talk to you about the launcher, and a few things I'd like to do to convey the state of launcher icons textually.
#ayatana 2011-06-28
<kaStevie> Hello
<kaStevie> I was just wondering if the design research on the software centre was available at all?
<kaStevie> well, given I might be waiting a while for a response I may as well be m ore specific
<kaStevie> I was currently looking for exactly who you are designing the software center for
<hicham> for mere mortals
<kaStevie> hicham: :) yes ofcourse
<kaStevie> but more than mere mortals, is there some kind of archetype that is being designed for?
<hicham> general users, not geeks :)
<hicham> but I doubt this is the appropriate place to discuss that
<hicham> software center isn't part of ayatana
<kaStevie> would you know what it is part of?
<hicham> I think #ubuntu will help you more than me
<kaStevie> no one knows there, think I might just leave a note on the wikipage asking who owns the project / where I can get research if indeed any has been done and stuffs
<kaStevie> thanks for your help
<hicham> sorry, i am wrong
<hicham> it appears that software management is part of ayatan
<hicham> check out its page
<hicham> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana
<kaStevie> is research done under the umbrella of ayatana usually made available?
<hicham> yes, of course
<hicham> it is open source :)
<MrGoodbyte> Hi
<MrGoodbyte> There is a problem in Unity. It doesn't update menu of an application even if it has changed. For example, MySQL Workbench's menu changes when you create an empty project
<MrGoodbyte> but in Unity, it stays as it started
<andyrock> good morning
<hicham> morning
<hicham> there are at least two rocks in ayatana : andyrock and didrocks
<andyrock> hicham, didrocks has the copyright ;)
<andyrock> compiz use glib main loop right?
<andyrock> uses*
<lamalex> andyrock, yah i believe so
<andyrock> lamalex, thx
<zniavre> good afternoon
<zniavre> any chance to get notify-osd with border ?
<zombie_> Bug#801931 Which package should I choose for this bug? Rite now I have set it to linux but I am confused.
<zombie_> sry wrong channel
<thumper> jcastro: ping?
<kenvandine> ronoc, https://code.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/indicator-sound/ifdef/+merge/66163
<kenvandine> ronoc, i am applying that as a distro patch
<ronoc> kenvandine, ah thanks, I'll make sure its in 0.7.3
<kenvandine> thx
<om26er> could anyone confirm bug 803029 in Oneiric ?
<ubot5> Launchpad bug 803029 in unity (Ubuntu) "there is a dead indicator after network icon" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/803029
<om26er> scrub slowly (incase you are trying to reproduce)
<om26er> compiz is eating more than 10%cpu consistently on my revived-from-death netbook, Is there anything else I could do except for reporting the bug? like some logs etc?
<om26er> Ok, its now back to normal after something like 15mins of cpu hog.
<agent00tai> hi everyone, we'd like to use the unity panel service in our panel, is there any documentation on it?
<jtn> Anyone got time to give me some pointers on how appmenu-gtk works?
<jtn> I'm from Freeciv upstream. appmenu-gtk seems to be stealing some of our menubars in Unity, making the game unplayable. We'd like them back ;)
<ajmitch> jtn: you can disable it per-application with 'export UBUNTU_MENUPROXY=0' before running it
<ajmitch> though that's probably not the best option compared to having them just work :)
<jtn> Sure -- we have this workaround. I'm after something more subtle, that will allow the main menubar to be indicator-ified while keeping the embedded ones where they belong.
<jtn> All the gory details are at <https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/freeciv/+bug/743265>.
<ubot5> Ubuntu bug 743265 in freeciv (Ubuntu) "when using unity, the cities menu is not shown" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<jtn> In the appmenu-gtk source, I found it looking for a property "ubuntu-no-proxy". Perhaps I can decorate our menubars with this? Can anyone tell me how it's intended to be used?
<jtn> The other thing that seems odd is that appmenu-gtk is suppressing the secondary menubars, but they don't show up in the output of "dbusmenu-dumper". Which suggests that something knows somehow how to distinguish the two kinds of menubar, but is losing one of them. Is that a bug in the appmenu stuff? (I could easily have missed something.)
<ajmitch> I suspect that most people who could help are in the wrong timezone this week
<jtn> Oh rats, are they all in Dublin?
<jtn> Darn, we've got a release scheduled and I was hoping to put any workaround in.
<ajmitch> I think a number of them are
<ajmitch> Have you tried asking on the mailing list?
<jtn> Not yet. I'll try that next.
<jtn> thx
#ayatana 2011-06-29
<andyrock> what happened to njpatel?
<\sh> guys, did anyone see the disappearance of the gvim menu bar from unity on natty since the last update of unity?
<davidcalle> \sh, it was a bug for it to be on top of the window, it's in the top bar now.
<\sh> davidcalle, see #ubuntu-devel , I don't see any menubar at all since the last unity update
<davidcalle> \sh, ah, that's a problem :)
<\sh> davidcalle, I mean "menubar" in gvim ... I do have the global menu bar in general
<\sh> bug #776499 describes the problem, but I don't see any terminal error message the people are reporting...but gvim -f works for me, too
<ubot5> Launchpad bug 776499 in vim (Ubuntu) "gvim gets no global menu, timeout warning on the console" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/776499
<\sh> anyways it's a regressing since the update from 3.8.10-0ubuntu2 to 3.8.16-0ubuntu1~natty1
<davidcalle> \sh, oh right it's when its launched from a terminal, I've just tested it.
<jcastro> gord: those drivers totally hooked me up, thanks for the tip
<agent00tai> hi everyone, we'd like to use the unity panel service in our panel, is there any documentation on it?
<om26er> is there a fix for unity-2d launcher to not show the white glossy gradient behind icons?
<om26er> I am seeing some serious performance regression in Unity, It was faster in 11.04
<agent00tai> Also is there a working gtk3 indicator(not the app ones) library?
<liminal> evening
<agent00tai> hi everyone is there a working gtk3 indicator(not the app ones) library?
<liminal> when i attach a second hdmi screen xrandr resizes my desktop into the new space, but compiz does not react.
<liminal>  the new area
<liminal> ---Â» Timslin (~Speedy624@87-194-16-12.bethere.co.uk) has Joined #compiz
<liminal> <coz_> liminal,  which video card
<liminal> <liminal> IntelÂ® GMA X4500 HD
<liminal> <coz_> liminal,  ah damn,, I know nothing about intel video chips...
<liminal> this is only in unity
<JamesGatz> Is it possible to achieve this on a Unity desktop:
<JamesGatz> A small region at the bottom of the screen that contains a terminal that is always present.
<JamesGatz> Other windows on the desktop do not overlap this window when maximized.
<JamesGatz> ?
<Nafai> JamesGatz: When the terminal is focused, hit alt-space and choose "Always on Visible Workspace" and hit it again and then choose "Always on top"
<JamesGatz> Nafai: thank you for the suggestion, there is one problem with this method: i want other windows to not maximize into the same region that this terminal occupies.
<Nafai> Ah, I see
<JamesGatz> so if it's at the bottom of the screen, i'd like other windows to align their bottom edges along the top of the terminal when maximized
<JamesGatz> kind of like a "panel" that is entirely a terminal
<JamesGatz> in fact it would be best if there were not window decorations or anything
<RAOF> JamesGatz: It's entirely possible to do that, but you'd need code.
<JamesGatz> actually perhaps there is a more Unity-centric way of achieving what I really want - a text-based irc session that persists between desktop sessions that sends notifications to the desktop
<JamesGatz> currently i'm using irssi in a screen session but the notification has been buggy and often doesn't work (stopped using it in GNOME before installing Unity a few days ago)
<agent00tai> JamesGatz: the best solution might be a programm running a system daemon that's accesible via dbus
<agent00tai> but I got not that much knowledege of sessions and all that so I don't know
<chris_99> hi guys am wondering if anyone can help me.  I'm trying to stop the GUI moving the currently selected window with me, when i move workspace
<chris_99> this only seems to have started happening in ubuntu 11
<chris_99> just found the answer, found the keymap i setup was moving the current app, but ctrl-alt-left/right works fine
<noaki> hi, not sure if this is the right place to ask.. but is there a plan when wayland will be used in ubuntu with unity? just remembered that plan, which was announced quite a few month ago
<rsajdok> Is today was the meeting? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/WeeklyMeeting
#ayatana 2011-06-30
<Gigatroll> Hi
<Gigatroll> How can I move the bar to the bottom?
<andyrock> good morning
#ayatana 2011-07-01
<zombie_> hey i want to help with a bitesize bug but this is my 1st time. Can I get some help? bug # 688830
<andyrock> good morning
<sftrabbit> exit
<Hodgestar> Ping.
<Hodgestar> So I have a GTK app with more than one menubar.
<Hodgestar> Is there a way I can stop Unity from eating all of them?
<jcastro> kim0: backlog: http://goo.gl/FdihT
<zombie_> While installing Unity from source in the compizconfig-python part I get the following
<zombie_> CompizConfig Python [ERROR]: No libcompizconfig.pc found in the pkg-config search path
<zombie_> Ensure that libcompizonfig is installed or libcompizconfig.pc is in your $PKG_CONFIG_PATH
<agent00tai> hi, can someone point me to a libindicator documentation?
<zombie_> I have checked and libcompizconfig.pc is in my $PKG_CONFIG_PATH
<agent00tai> and again: is there anyone in here who could point me to any documentation on libindicator?
<agent00tai> and also tell me if it supports gtk3
<TheMuso> agent00tai: You probably want libappindicator, and yes GTk3 support is available, moreso in oneiric than Natty, but yes.
<TheMuso> agent00tai: And you probably want the libappindicator-doc package.
<TheMuso> Which will give you documentation.
<agent00tai> TheMuso: nope I want libindicator as I want to implement it into a panel
<TheMuso> agent00tai: Right, I think you will need to look at the libindicator headers then, as the docs do not seem to be available in a package.
<agent00tai> TheMuso: well I was more hoping that there are some docs avaiable somewhere at least
<agent00tai> TheMuso: do you know if libindicator supports gtk3?
<TheMuso> agent00tai: The latest code certainly does yes.
<TheMuso> Not sure about the code for natty.
<TheMuso> agent00tai: if you want some example code to help you, you might want to look at the code in the indicator-applet source package.
<TheMuso> Indicator-applet puts indicators on a GNOME panel in an applet.
<agent00tai> TheMuso: yeah I know of that, is that already ported to gtk3 in oneiric?
<TheMuso> No I don't think so, as we are no longer using the gnome panels.
<agent00tai> TheMuso: so unity has it implemented then, I guess?
<TheMuso> yes.
<agent00tai> TheMuso: thanks, finnaly someone who could give me some answers
<TheMuso> The unity panel service deals with the indicator modules and indicator object entries.
<agent00tai> TheMuso: yeah I already was pointed to that, but I couldn't really figure out how it works yet
<TheMuso> The unity panel service is quite different from most if not all other implementations, because it doesn't actually draw the panel/indicators itself.
<TheMuso> Maybe the xfce panel indicator applet is something else to look at, although that is not using GTk2 either.
<TheMuso> GTk3 even
<TheMuso> agent00tai: I have to go, but I hope I've given you a few starting points.
<agent00tai> TheMuso: thanks a lot, have a good time!
<TheMuso> agent00tai: Welcome.
<Nafai> Is the chromium app matching bug fixed in natty?
<zombie_> hi, can someone point me to a libindicator documentation?I have checked and libcompizconfig.pc is in my $PKG_CONFIG_PATH
#ayatana 2011-07-02
<MBarvian> hi guys
<MBarvian> I was wondering where I could find some more info on unity-panel-service?
<MBarvian> erm, any info :P
<zniavre> good morning
<zniavre> how to use modal/dialog new way without unity/unity-2d please ?
<zniavre> this is a compiz setting ?  (unity-2d certainly not)
<zniavre> im using gnome3 classic session (unity can't work with my hardware)
<zniavre> http://i.imgur.com/LMVzT.png  > check synaptic password window ...
<conencaje> Hello?? There are someone?
<conencaje> Can someone answer me?
#ayatana 2011-07-03
<bones_> Does anyone here work on Notify-osd?
