#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-12
<klepas> hi mgalvin 
<mgalvin> hi klepas
<klepas> how are you?
<mgalvin> good, how are you
<klepas> Quite alright. Enjoying 8 weeks of holidays :)
<mgalvin> lucky you :)
<klepas> yea, graduated last week. and we finish early this year
<mgalvin> cool, congrats
<klepas> it's just high school
<klepas> nothing big
<klepas> next year will be lovely though
<klepas> college! :)
<mgalvin> still a mgood ilestone in life
<mgalvin> er milestone
<klepas> Yea. :)
<klepas> have you seen any of the recent suggestions of artnay?
<mhz> re
<klepas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<mgalvin> no i haven't
<klepas> add to your to-do :)
<artnay> hello
<artnay> added new information on icons and BGs
<klepas> hey artnay 
<artnay> hi klepas 
<artnay> so humility is not under development anymore
<artnay> but at least we're encouraged to play with it, give some ;)
<klepas> Humility is still under development
<klepas> though the name has changed
<artnay> no it's not, andyfitz confirmed that
<klepas> alright
<klepas> so what is really happening with it now?
<klepas> I'm editing one of the respective wiki pages
<artnay> a new is coming on the 23rd on january
<klepas> Okay
<Tm_T> hum
<klepas> I'll make sure to keep him to that date :)
<klepas> hey Tm_T 
<Tm_T> hullo
<Tm_T> any of you using dapper?
<klepas> artnay and I are reworking the wiki
<klepas> Not me. Suse actually in the moment
<Tm_T> uff
<Tm_T> burn him!
<Tm_T> ;-P
<klepas> I need to get around to installing breezy Ubuntu and Kubuntu
<klepas> I kind of friend my poor HD after 3 weeks into the preview while I was reporting bugs
<Tm_T> dapperdapperdapperdapper ;)
<artnay> umh, new gstreamer
<klepas> hey koke 
<klepas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtTeam
<klepas> updated
<klepas> back for more, eh :)
<Tm_T> aah, nick play
<viller> where's the community artwork page at ubuntulinux.org wiki??
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-13
<klepas> moin
<mhz> klepas: moin
* mhz long time he didn't heard that greeting
<artnay> hi
<klepas> hey artnay 
<klepas> updated any other wiki entries?
<artnay> not yet
<artnay> been busy
<klepas> cool
<klepas> i'm trying to get a job so i can get a laptop
<klepas> :)
<artnay> I'm trying to get this balloon idea to work... Replacing K menu with "a balloon" that is based on three elements (Navigation [Applications, Places, System] , Search, Actions)
<artnay> would like to get a working one with KDE/CSS styles :>
<artnay> I mean, holy crap, Vista's Start menu takes 1/3 of the screen space. what a mess
<klepas> yea.
<artnay> K Menu is too crowded, too. so getting a plain menu with basic functions and some eye-candy would be really nice ;)
<klepas> saw that screenshot you showed me yesterday
<klepas> i'm fairly happy with the k menu
<artnay> I'm still working on that
<klepas> but i suppose it should be customisable
<klepas> to be simpler
<artnay> didn't have much time yesterday (well, I was able to check my mail) so nothing wasn't done :|
<artnay> it should be wider
<artnay> it takes the Windows approach
<klepas> should be wider!?
<artnay> get everything into one menu and make it really high
<klepas> heck no
<klepas> i like smallness
<klepas> :P
<artnay> me too, that's why I'd like to K menu to utilize some horizontal space
<artnay> add "see"
<klepas> no
<klepas> ewww
<klepas> small
<klepas> cut down the menus even more
<klepas> into things like "create/edit"
<artnay> I have a few hours of spare-time today, tomorrow christmas parties and on the weekend I'm working
<klepas> "communicate"
<klepas> and so forth
<artnay> klepas: that's one possibility although I like GNOME's approach
<artnay> but if you want to base that on verbs, why not
<artnay> so I'm quite busy at the moment, too bad. we should update the wiki asap
<artnay> hey btw, people have been asking about communityartwork
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> yea, saw that
<klepas> but all the info is available in more applicable pages now
<klepas> btw
<artnay> should we just create the main artwork page?
<klepas> GNOME 3 will probably move to use such verbs as well to simplify the menus
<klepas> main artwork page?
<artnay>  /Artwork
<klepas> mmh
<klepas> maybe
<artnay> the one that contains all the links
<artnay> so it would be easier to navigate
<klepas> let us fix up the current pages
<klepas> because it is less work
<klepas> all nice and cut down
<artnay> GNOME 3? I saw jimmac's hacks
<klepas> jimmac's hacks?
<klepas> linky plz :)
<artnay> it had a few nice ideas, but I didn't like the "start menu" at all
<klepas> brb, got to feed the giant furballs :)
<artnay> it wasn't that nice, it took the windows approach
<artnay> one menu to master them all
<Tm_T> artnay: have you seen KDE4 mockups ?
<artnay> Tm_T: official ones?
<Tm_T> "official" ones ;)
<artnay> they didn't differ that much, only using Qt 4
<artnay> so GUI is almost the same, right?
<Tm_T> oh, you haven't seen aseigos ideas then
<artnay> at kde-looks?
<Tm_T> nope
<Tm_T> can't remember where I saw, but aseigo has good ideas about it
<artnay> show me the... KDE!
<artnay> like what?
<klepas> probably on kde-artists.org
<artnay> jimmac's hacks: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/
<artnay> that Applications menu is terrible
<artnay> nothing personal :)
<Tm_T> artnay: well, now there's panel, there's desktop, there's menus... he's main idea is that they're not "separate" but works together making things just work better
<artnay> notification area / "systray" is based on a few simple colours, I like that
<artnay> stolen from OS X and Apple stole it from... ;)
<artnay> and Vista is taking the same approach, that wasn't a surprise
<artnay> Tm_T: I didn't get you, need some pics :)
<Tm_T> artnay: trying to find
<Tm_T> and even pics doesnt show the greatness of it
<artnay> jimmac's hacks have this hotspot idea
<artnay> notice the icons on the upper corners?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> whoa
<klepas> if that is how gnome 3 is going to be...
<klepas> then i might change =P
<artnay> klepas: you actually like that?
<Tm_T> artnay: I think here's something: http://kde-artists.org/main/forum/index.php?board=5.0
<klepas> they aren't bad
<artnay> I guess KDE 4 has many of those features, like that unified notification area
<klepas> and i'm assuming of course i can customise them
<artnay> customizing GNOME?
<klepas> yea
<artnay> they want to provide sane defaults, customizing is 2nd priority (if it's even possible without hacks)
<Tm_T> artnay: aye
<klepas> that would be good
<klepas> i hope kde 4 keeps the same in mind
<Tm_T> well, I hacked my Kicker clock =)
<artnay> Tm_T: ok, I only see threads containing ideas how things could be done
<klepas> because personally having superkaramba and moving this and moving that would be crap
<artnay> no pics
<klepas> it uses system resources like nothing else and is not good for slower macines
<Tm_T> artnay: yu, I don't remember where I saw some really nice pics
<klepas> s/macines/machines
<Tm_T> klepas: *karamba... never liked it =)
<artnay> klepas: some widgets do, but superkaramba by itself?
<klepas> not by itself
<klepas> but if KDE 4 will be anything like the devs with powerful machines want it to be at default then it is going to suck at first
<klepas> it needs to be fast enough to run well
<artnay> so maybe optimizing the code of widget would be the place to start
<klepas> even on an 800 Mhz machine
<artnay> when will KDE 4 be out? more than a year, right?
<Tm_T> artnay: atleast a year
<artnay> so there's plenty of time before KDE 4 or GNOME 3 will be released
<klepas> really?>
<klepas> isn't it 6 months release cycle?
<klepas> or did they make an exception?
<artnay> for minor changes
<artnay> there's no schedule for major changes
<artnay> although I saw one project which was delayed for like 3 or 4 months
<artnay> it had a schedule
<artnay> plasma.
<klepas> mmh
<klepas> strange
<klepas> just curious
<artnay> First uploads of the API documentation to this website will likely occur in September 2005 given the current roadmap. 
<klepas> if you guys open a new tab in konqueror
<artnay> so they're behind the schedule
<klepas> and then begin typing in a few characters into the url bar
<klepas> does it lag a second or two to make the scroll down thing appear?
<klepas> because that has begun to annoy me
<klepas> =\
<artnay> I guess it does, I'm using XP right now :(
<klepas> =[
<klepas> seen my recent screenshot?
<artnay> show us already
<artnay> klepas: 
<artnay> Tm_T: 
<artnay> anyone?
<Tm_T> yes yeas
<Tm_T> -a
<artnay> bachler: 
<artnay> miketech: 
<artnay> *:
<Tm_T> ?
<artnay> WIKI!
<artnay> lets do it today, shall we?
<Tm_T> WIKIWIKI!
<artnay> Artwork page?
<Tm_T> I won't
<Tm_T> ;)
<Tm_T> have to fix more that clock of mine ->
<artnay> ok, I'll watch a few episodes of Lost then
<dholbach> hellas
<dholbach> would it be ok, if i would added your mailing list as a QA contact to artwork related bug reports?
<dholbach> good night everybody
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-14
<MMA> #ubuntu-laptop
<artnay> hey
<klepas> artnay: ping
<klepas> hey ogra 
<klepas> hey mhz 
<mhz> hey klepas 
<mhz> any news about when the meeting will be?
<klepas> no idea
<klepas> but i feel like calling an impromptu meeting...
<klepas> because the chances of it ever happening by planning it with discussion through the mailing list seems...
<klepas> ...very slim.
<mhz> yup
<mhz> klepas: have you seen this http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2005/english/prog.html
<mhz> at 21:00 GMT Gustavo Gonzlez will talk about Multimedia and Free 
<mhz> Software.
<mhz> it may be interesting to see that irc talk about Software Libre and Multimedia
<klepas> ogra: ping
<ogra> klepas, pong
<klepas> ogra: you do packaging right?
<klepas> mhz: cool, thx :)
<ogra> yes
<klepas> is it possible for the art team to create small approved package for universe?
<klepas> art package that is?
<ogra> sure, why not
<klepas> how 'much' would there need to be to qualify?
<klepas> and what types of art (for example would we be able to include both GDM stuff for gnome and KDE stuff like KDM themes and other assorted KDE stuff)?
<ogra> i dont think mixing gnmoe and kde is such a good idea ...
<ogra> *gnome
<klepas> fair enough
<klepas> :)
<ogra> but else, you need to make sure that the themes are original work, not based on anyone elses work and they must be under the CC license
<klepas> which CC license in particular?
<klepas> and what if they are GPL?
<ogra> gpl doesnt go very well for art ...
<ogra> elmo requires the CC to allow the packages in ...
<ogra> see a.u.c the same license should be ok...
<klepas> alrighty
<klepas> well we can always ask for them to dual license it ;)
<klepas> under a CC license if they have already GPLed it :)
<artnay> CC-SA 2.5
<artnay> right?
<artnay> and I heard that they could bring some sort of GPL'd art license when GPL3 gets out
<artnay> that would be most probably before dapper is released, probably in January
<klepas> i'm looking forward to something like that. would be nice :)
<klepas> mhz: thanks for adding the toc to the wiki pages
<artnay> well I'm taking CC-SA 2.5 at the moment
<mhz> artnay: one of my friends run www.derechosdigitales.org (digital rights). They are 3 lawyers who could help us solve some questions if needed (we gotta be clear what to ask) :)
<klepas> mhz: http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2005/english/prog.html failed :(
<artnay> CC-SA 2.5 is ok with the debian free software policy
<mhz> klepas: i'll check
<klepas> mhz: check dig outcomes?
<mhz> he :)
<klepas> s/check/compare
<mhz> klepas: yw, I like wikin
<mhz> yup
<klepas> mhz: i posted my output
<klepas> Oh and by the way
<mhz> klepas: http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2005/english/prog.html
<klepas> I'm going to spend sometime on the weekend hunting for some nice things that could possibly go in an art package for universe
<klepas> mhz: still timeout
<klepas> i pasted my dig and ping outcomes
<klepas> check one-on-one
<mhz> klepas: i see. I had same problem unless I followed this path... 
<mhz> klepas: http://umeet.uninet.edu/
<mhz> yup I did and it iw weired
<mhz> because I can successfully get to same page from http://umeet.uninet.edu/
<mhz> but not directly :(
<klepas> Anyway, i'll post the list of goodies that can go into the art package
<klepas> and then we might discuss it here, add something or remove something
<klepas> but for now, i think some sleep is in order
<klepas> have a nice day :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-15
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<klepas> anyone awake?
<klepas> artnay: ping
<artnay> klepas: hey
<klepas> a.g.o has been very busy
<klepas> they've actually been working on fixing their site
<klepas> I think we need to get a build from them or something to fix up auc
<artnay> yeah, I noticed the to-do list has been updated
<artnay> will AUC still use artweb?
<klepas> i sincerely hope not
<klepas> i personally think something a bit more like the cms that gnome-look/kde-look uses would be more applicable
<klepas> i'm sure there are set-up options to set it that content still needs to be reviewed/moderated first before being accepted and added
<klepas> and that we could customise the look of it (some css)
<klepas> I mean, we can stick with art-web, but it would need to be improved
<klepas> a lot
<artnay> I bet
<klepas> because right now adding stuff is a pain
<klepas> manually need to create thumbs, upload them via sftp and the same goes for actuall content
<artnay> I know, that's a terrible process
<artnay> should we update the wiki today? I spoke with Hernandez yesterday, he was quite positive on that
<klepas> i can't m'self
<artnay> I just came to work so I might have some time available a bit later
<klepas> going to a party in a few hours
<klepas> but i intend to work on it either now, or tomorrow
<klepas> gstreamer 0.10 got released :)
<artnay> we need the structure to be set correctly
<klepas> i feel like craming most things on one page...
<klepas> would make things nice and easy
<artnay> so we're speaking of /Artwork
<klepas> plus we can just stick in a TOC at the top for browsing
<klepas> or something like it
<klepas> yea
<klepas> put most things under that
<klepas> would make it easy :)
<artnay> I updated my proposal
* klepas goes off to check
<artnay> check the wiki section
<artnay> should we move the Artwork pages to be on top?
<artnay> then FAQ, Guides etc.
<klepas> yeah, sounds alright
<klepas> but keep that "Scope" intro there
<klepas> FAQ section can go third or fourth
<klepas> remember, if there is a toc it's very easy to get to it :)
<klepas> how about this?
<klepas> I'll create an "Artwork" page now
<klepas> and put everything from "ArtTeam" in it
<klepas> shuffle things around a wee bit
<klepas> and see how far I get
<artnay> create a separate contact page
<klepas> sure?
<artnay> under /Artwork
<klepas> we can just stuck it under Members
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> how about /UbuntuArtwork ?
<klepas> because there is /KubuntuArtwork
<klepas> iirc
<artnay> Contact would be better. the page would contain all members and their addresses, link to the mailing list and some info on the IRC channel
<klepas> btw
<klepas> i can't make/edit "Artwork"
<klepas> because it links to ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay>  /Artwork would contain links to /UbuntuArtwork, /KubuntuArtwork, /EdubuntuArtwork, /XubuntuArtwork, etc. etc.
<klepas> yea
<klepas> so...
<klepas> what do you want to do?
<artnay> well I guess I'm able to edit it
<klepas> go for it
<artnay> I'll do it later today if it's ok
<klepas> no worries
<artnay> hi guys
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> so what should we with previous versions? (artwork for hoary and breezy)
<artnay> should /UbuntuArtwork be divided into smaller pieces?
<artnay> so that Ubuntu wouldn't steal the main focus at /Artwork
<artnay> I mean, every *buntu page should contain their own list of Guides and Resources (palettes etc.)
<artnay> FAQ should be at the main page
<artnay> hey lllmanulll 
<artnay> :)
<lllmanulll> artnay: hey :)
<artnay> what about the contact page? should it contain all the members? (*buntu)
<artnay> maybe some separation here and there
<artnay> hey guys
<lukacu> hello
<artnay> want to help with the wiki?
<artnay> if we split /UbuntuArtwork into smaller pieces, what should be there by default?
<artnay> it has to be splitted into smaller pieces
<artnay> but we're lacking the structure here
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> hi Danten 
<Danten> hello artnay
<lukacu> how about putting http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo directly to the wiki?
<artnay> lukacu: I was thinking that but renewing /Artwork is the top priority
<lukacu> ok
<artnay> then we can split that one and add more things easily
<artnay> Danten: take a look here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<Danten> on it
<artnay> but we need a unified structure to *ubuntu artwork pages
<artnay> then write small introduction to /Artwork, introductions to subcategories etc.
<artnay> for example https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork should be done from scratch. we should move those *buntu topics under a valid page and move ubuntu information under "Resources" or something
<artnay> what do you think?
<lukacu> i agree
<artnay>  /Artwork/UbuntuArtwork/Resources to say
<artnay> *g* we're scratching our heads because of wiki, I wonder when we get any "real" job done ;)
<Danten> ^^
<artnay> ok, let's keep a brainstorm here
<artnay> what should be the structure of /*buntuArtwork
<artnay> let's keep /Artwork as minimalistic as we can but also informal
<artnay> *buntu artwork could contain Projects, Resources and what else?
<artnay> GeneralDiscussion
<artnay> what about contacting? shall we keep one contact page? or should the credit be given to right people under *buntuArtwork page?
<artnay> it would be great if we could cross-link all this when using unified structure
<artnay> so one wouldn't have to check four different pages to see what's happening in every project
<artnay> where's our wiki expert, mhz? :)
<artnay> what do you think?
<artnay> if we split /Artwork and *buntuArtwork pages into too small pieces, people won't read it
<lukacu> how about just organizing the pages ... no splitting?
<artnay> ok, *buntuArtwork should contain at least Projects, Guides and Resources
<lukacu> yes
<artnay> lukacu: it's easier to organize when there's no any optional information
<artnay> I mean, Kubuntu artworkers probably aren't interested how to make metacity decorations
<artnay> so /KubuntuArtwork/Guides could contain guides to KWin decorations etc.
<artnay> and /UbuntuArtwork/Guides metacity etc.
<artnay> it's easier to read a page when it doesn't contain information that you don't need, therefore I'd split the package
<lukacu> well ... gnome/kde stuff can be separated ... but logo and stuff like that ... that can be on /*buntuArtwork page
<artnay>  /UbuntuArtwork/Resources could contain Ubuntu's logo, palette etc.
<artnay> same for /Kubuntu
<lukacu> is /UbuntuArtwork/Resources a separate wiki page?
<artnay> yes, because it would contain a different logo and palette etc. than any other *buntuArtwork has
<lukacu> but what is on UbuntuArtwork page then? ... only links?
<artnay> Projects (clicking this would bring the goals for Dapper), Guides, Resources, what else?
<artnay> Ubuntu and Edubuntu, probably Xubuntu could use the same Guides page
<lukacu> yes ... but that are only links to separate wiki pages?
<artnay> lukacu: look at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> a list view of projects and a small summary for each
<artnay> FAQ, Licensing and Contact could be at /Artwork
<lukacu> i see...
<artnay> I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas here
<artnay> Write first, then take a pause and think
<artnay> :)
<lukacu> and that is good ... throwing ideas :)
<lukacu> brings some life to the art team
<artnay> lukacu: are you scared of the idea? would it split pages too much?
<lukacu> no ... i just dont like nearly empty wiki pages ... but thats just me
<Danten> isn't it possible to include other wikipages on a wikipage?
<artnay> or badly outdated pages
<artnay> Danten: I guess it could be
<Danten> with templates or something
<artnay> so we could have a page for each and one page that sync to those smaller pages
<Danten> so instead of links it includes the page/template/whatever
<Danten> mm
<artnay> Danten: I bet mhz has lots of information on wiki
<Danten> then images could be uploaded at a section on the art.ubuntu.com page?
<artnay> Danten: sure
<Danten> wasn't it talk about something like that for a while ago
<lukacu> that reminds me ... AUC ... there is nearly no activity ... i am the only admin for a month or so ..
<lukacu> there must be something the art team can do
<artnay> it's all happening behind the scenes
<artnay> lukacu: ok, art-web could be updated. or maybe art-web could be replaced?
<artnay> ask klepas for details
<lukacu> the probem is the system behind the auc ... but that is a known fact ... manual uploading etc...
<artnay> true. the version of art-web at AUC is outdated. there's been some progress at art.gnome.org
<artnay> so it could be updated or replaced
<artnay> currently it's really buggy, all those linkings to AGO etc.
<artnay> navigation problems, admin problems etc. etc.
<artnay> instead of whinging here, even I could help with that
<lukacu> indeed ... but henrik (auc supreme admin) in a bit ... well i dont know where is he ... i will try writing him again though
<artnay> I updated the proposal once again: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> sorry about the layout and typos
<artnay> I'm in a hurry right now
<artnay> ok, I'm off. in case you have something to add, use the wiki. later mates!
<lukacu> bye
<mhz> hi
<lukacu> hello
<mhz> lukacu: hi
<mhz> lukacu: upon request by artnay, i am unifiying some wiki syntaxis, so dont panic if i have slightly changed some of the pages you have edited
<mhz> :)
<mhz> I am not changing content, just moin wiki sintaxis
<lukacu> no problem :)
<lukacu> i am glad to see some activity
<mhz> heheh, eventhough this activity is editing?
<lukacu> better than nothing i say
<mhz> indeed
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-16
<lukacu> good night
<klepas> what a dreary afternoon
<artnay> good morning :)
<artnay> hey, any new ideas concerning wiki pages?
<artnay> what if /*buntuArtwork would be just one long page without subcategory links? we could split sections using headings and place links directly to projects. that way it wouldn't be a link mess
<artnay> hi lukacu 
<artnay> let me repeat myself:
<artnay> what if /*buntuArtwork would be just one long page without subcategory links? we could split sections using headings and place links directly to projects. that way it wouldn't be a link mess
<artnay> if /*buntuArtwork would consist of Projects, Resources and Guides, it wouldn't be too hard to split it that way
<lukacu> hello artnay
<artnay> but if it gets any bigger than that, /*buntuArtwork should use subcategory links and short summaries
<artnay> what do you think?
<artnay> it would be about time to renew the wiki :)
<lukacu> that is what i had in mind yesterday... but i was not very clear about it i know
<artnay>  /Artwork = links to UbuntuArtwork, KubuntuArtwork, EdubuntuArtwork, XubuntuArtwork, FAQ, Licensing, Contact
<artnay> in order of appearance
<artnay> lukacu: why? what's on your mind?
<lukacu> subtitles and that :)
<artnay> are you translating something?
<lukacu> translating what?
<artnay> some subtitles? :)
<artnay> nevermind, I guess you meant wiki subtitles
<lukacu> yes :)
<artnay> lukacu: more specific titles?
<artnay> that's what I've been thinking, and the structure of /*buntuArtwork pages
<artnay> but what should be done with older projects? it would be nice to have some history as well so we could learn from past
<artnay> Goals for Breezy, Goals for Dapper (when we're at Dapper+1)
<lukacu> i think titles listed above are just fine ... projects, resources, guides etc.
<lukacu> we can have section "past projects"? :)
<artnay> sure, why not. let's just dump them somewhere :)
<klepas> sounds like a good idea
<klepas> but it would become quite a lengthy page...
<lukacu> it that case we can still split it
<artnay> so instead of a long page, should we use just a few links to subcategories at /*buntuArtwork pages?
<klepas> yea, sounds alrighty
<klepas> -y
<artnay> type wiki ubuntu into fx, type artwork into search box, end up to /Artwork, click UbuntuArtwork, click Projects, click the desired project
<lukacu> i am more of a long-page-guy ... but no problem :)
<artnay> isn't that a way too, umh, difficult way?
<klepas> one long page is fine
<klepas> but you might want to talk to the edubuntu/xubuntu/kubunut art people then too
<artnay> of course, they might have some great ideas
<artnay> that we're missing here
<lukacu> yup ... more people
<artnay> how do we contact them? they don't have an IRC channel
<artnay> should we invite them here?
<artnay> or should we just have the meeting that we've been planning for last two or three months? :)
<lukacu> :D
<lukacu> i it like some kind of master plan to conquer the world ;)
<lukacu> s/it/is
<klepas> i think dropping off a message for a few days to the kubuntu-users mailing list ought to do for the kubuntu people
<klepas> organise a massive general k/ed/x/ubuntu artwork IRC meeting
<klepas> and discuss this
<klepas> we can write up an agenda
<artnay> https://launchpad.net/people/kubuntu-team
<klepas> and get this over with
<klepas> yea, but there aren't many people part of that team
<klepas> addressing the kubuntu ML would be better
<klepas> and we could get other people interested too :)
<artnay> that's why we need /ArtworkContact page or something
<klepas> check the ArtTeam page
<klepas> I added a contact and joining section
<artnay> you know what's wrong with that? it's full of data that the user isn't looking for
<artnay> it doesn't separate people by projects
<artnay> it should say clearly who are participating to Ubuntu, Kubuntu etc.
<artnay> so yes, there's some info we could use when we build the contact page
<lukacu> how about having a PR guy :)
<artnay> now we should find (or know) who are members of non-Ubuntu projects and then contact them
<artnay> because that page doesn't state that clearly
<klepas> but generally we agree that a lage page of /Artwork would be good
<artnay> it would be just the main page and has to bee minimalistic
<artnay> it would contain links to /*buntuArtwork pages that might be built as we've planned
<klepas> which has various sub-pages (this is possible, no?) which address various other areas of the Artwork, such as the different types (k/edu/x/ubuntu)
<artnay> hmm
<artnay> lukacu: are you volunteering? :D
<lukacu> lol
<klepas> I'm happy to help out
<artnay> "me too" :>
<artnay> brb, I have to smoke a ciggie
<lukacu> i will help (but not with the pr thing if you had that in mind ;) )
<lukacu> i ll be back in an hour or so ... bye
<klepas> lukacu: bye :)
<artnay> mhz is already unifying the artwork syntax 
<artnay> klepas: oh, so probably already read that as you're online 24/7 :>
<artnay> s/so/you, typos here, there and everywhere
<artnay> so how should we deal with dupe pages? for example UsplashArtwork would be used in every project but only with different splash screens
<klepas> make one page for them all
<klepas> for stuff like that
<klepas> or /KubuntuUsplashArtwork
<klepas> for example
<klepas> artnay: yea, i'm online 24/7 :P
<artnay> and that would include a link to all Usplash pages
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/node/101
<artnay> links
<klepas> :)
<artnay> it's broken
<artnay> you're restaring the daemon or what? I can't connect atm :|
<klepas> huh?
<artnay> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at wombat.nuxified.com.
<artnay> now it's working although SQL is broken
<klepas> damnit
<klepas> using Firefox?
<artnay> yep
<klepas> why not Konqueror?
<klepas> try again now, btw
<artnay> because I'm at work and using win XP
<klepas> ah, rightio
<artnay> well I do use FX on every computer
<klepas> SQL connection is being shitty
<artnay> one word: extensions
<artnay> it's only the about page that has DB problems
<klepas> just reload a few times
<klepas> i know, the server and SQL have been annoying me today
<klepas> not my fault though
<artnay> cool, it's working
<artnay> no, /101 isn't working :|
<klepas> =\
<klepas> try again in 5 or so minutes
<artnay> sure, just let us know when you're ready
<klepas> i'm not going to touch it
<klepas> i don't have access to the CPanel.
<klepas> can't even make an SQL dump
<klepas> so i'll let it fix itself or let the admin see it and fix it
<klepas> s/admin/host
<artnay> ok, it doesn't work. what's in there? :o
<klepas> loads for me
<artnay> Access denied
<artnay> You are not authorized to access this page.
<artnay> and lots of SQL errors
<klepas> it's happened before
<klepas> and it fixed itself
<klepas> nothing i can do, even if i wanted to because i don't have access
<lukacu> im back :)
<artnay> no problem. if it's necessary information, you could always tell it here
<artnay> instead of blogging it :)
<klepas> yea
<klepas> basically i wanted to show a screenshot
<klepas> which is independent of the DB
<klepas> so here's the link
<klepas> btw, it seems to be working
<klepas> the actuall site
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/gallery/file/Screenshots/2005-12-09-uptime.png
<artnay> why doesn't XP have a world clock, dammit... what time would it be in chile?
<artnay> gmt -8?
<artnay> klepas: are you able to change the geometry of yakuake in KDE 3.5?
<artnay> yakuake --geometry blabla
<klepas> what's the capital of Chile
<klepas> yea, iirc
<artnay> santiago
<klepas> in Santiago, it's 07:48 right now
<artnay> umh, I must have messed up something with the compilation then
<artnay> let's just hope that there's no long queues so mhz could make it here :)
<klepas> :)
<klepas> what icon set do you use for KDE?
<klepas> i can't seem to find a complete/near to complete good one... =[
<artnay> are you serious? a heavy mix of human, humility, nuove xt, vista look-a-like
<klepas> nuove xt isn't complete enough
<klepas> and the K icon looks like trash, imho
<artnay> klepas: where does yakuake store its config data?
<klepas> ~/.kde/share/config/yakuakerc
<artnay> klepas: I haven't found so good icon set that I wouldn't have modified it
<artnay> oh yeah, how could I forgot tango...
<klepas> Tango sucked last time i tried it
<klepas> which was 0.5.1
<klepas> iirc
<klepas> It wouldn't create icons for my small panels
<klepas> all PNGs were all 48x and up.
<klepas> My panel uses 32x
<artnay> hey, when you set the geometry information, what does it write to yakuakerc?
<klepas> i'll post my config to one-on-one
<artnay> klepas: yeah, but take the best parts of CC-SA 2.5 sets, tweak them and combine :)
<artnay> hi guys
<artnay> mhz: you were unifying syntax, how?
<artnay> mhz: and have you voted already? :)
<mhz> artnay: moin
<omeg> Voted?
<mhz> not voted yet (about 28 C degrees.. too hot)
<mhz> omeg: Chilean elections for president 2day
<mhz> artnay: unifiying sytax... nope. Using moin syntax to give pages a better look
<artnay> ah, ok.
<omeg> Ah
<klepas> i'm off
<klepas> cheers all
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
* #ubuntu-artwork  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
<AndyFitz> someone has to package synfig!!!!  .  I'm going to #motu
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-17
<lukacu> good night
<klepas> artnay: ping
<klepas> anyone awake
<artnay> klepas: 
<klepas> hey
<klepas> going to sleep soon =\
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-18
<klepas> moin
<klepas> anyone awake?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-11
<nysosym> Hi all :)
<lapo> hi
<troy_s> greets lapo
<alefteris> hi everyone! could someone tell me where to download the edgy artwork? i can't find them in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives. I'm particularly interested in the glossy ubuntu cycle. thanks
<nysosym> alefteris: this one?
<nysosym> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/Logo
<alefteris> nysosym, thanks a lot :)
<nysosym> no problem
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-12
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<lapo> hi
<coz_> hello all
<coz_> you know about a year ago i singed up to be amemeber of the art team
<coz_> I havn'tapparently been keeping up with things, so what is the best way to stay informed of all the upcoming things
<PingunZ> check the wiki and launchpad I guess
<coz_> PingunZ, ok thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-13
<sittisal> hi
<sittisal> troy_s, are you there
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  Congrats to bersace and the inclusion of Gnome-Scan in Feisty!
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<klepas> rar
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-14
<_MMA_> Hello guys. Can anyone point me a good Usplash documentation?
<lapo> hi
<newz2000> Do you guys get [what seems like]  a bazillion bug notices per week about a "pango" bug?
<klepas> does anything actually get done here anymore? =\
<newz2000> pascal, good morning
<klepas> moin
<troy_s> klepas:  no
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-15
<rjian> anybody here?
<klepas> troy_s: ok...
<klepas> why not?
<lapo> hi
<troy_s> klepas:  Because sabdfl is taking his own direction on Feisty.
<klepas> hmmm wonder why
<klepas> well that sucks
<klepas> are we going to close this channel now?
<cbx33> hey peeps when you click on the shutdown button
<cbx33> where do the icons come from?
<msikma> From the place where people endorse bad design
<nysosym> hi all
<Gnorksy> moin
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-16
<nysosym_> hi all
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-17
<alefteris> hi everyone. is it ok if i use the ubuntu cycle and text as a banner in a web site to link to the greek loco team site?
<troy_s> alefteris:  should be fine... you found the diy marketing correct?
<alefteris> troy_s, is it a wiki page i should check about diy marketing?
<troy_s> Yes... I believe it is wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing
<troy_s> Yep:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing
<troy_s> In particular
<troy_s> the link at the bottom has many useful images...
<troy_s> http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/DIY%20Material/
<alefteris> troy_s, it doesnt mention anything about trademark or legal things..
<troy_s> Should be fine...
<troy_s> all cc by share alike i believe
<alefteris> ok, thanks
<alefteris> anyone knows how to stroke the page borders in inkscape?
<nysosym> ahoi
<PingunZ> hei nysosym
<_MMA_> Hello. Is anyone in here working on the Feisty Usplash?
<_MMA_> Seveas: ping
<Seveas> -EBUSY
<_MMA_> Ok. Let me know when you have a min.
* _MMA_ looks over Usplash-dev
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-10
<lapo> hi
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Anyone interested in helping with the packaging for Hardy? (Yes, we need to package some stuff already) If yes, ping kwwii
<kwwii> sometimes I think it would be quicker to post the opposite of what I really wanted to happen and see how people react
<andreasn> hrm, hehe
<andreasn> I was actually thinking of learning how to package some small, silly stuff
<andreasn> do they have those motu things once a week, or just every now and then?
<kwwii> no idea
<nothlit> just read the openweek transcripts, they step you through it =p
<andreasn> if anyone seems more bugs like this, feel free to attach it to the bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/122937
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 122937 in nautilus "Rhythmbox desktop launcher icon appears too small" [Low,Confirmed]
<DanaG> Hmm, I'm using the Tango icon theme, and not all my 'notification area' icons are the same size.
<DanaG> Aamrok is 24 or so pixels, but things like padevchooser seem to be either scaled smaller or just cut off.
<andreasn> DanaG: screenshot?
<Toma-> Anyone see that theme that made digg front page?
<Toma-> it was /BasicIdeals...
<andreasn> hm?
<andreasn> where?
<Toma-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
<Toma-> looks ok, but its impossible thanks to gnome
<andreasn> well, currently impossible I guess :)
<andreasn> you can always fix the code
<Toma-> Is there even any thought about allowing more elaborate theming in gnome?
<Toma-> it just sucks for themeing :(
<andreasn> well, I don't personally don't have any plans regarding that, and I don't really know about the rest if the gnome art team
<Toma-> hmm. ill have to dive around and see whats happening
<andreasn> but it's always possible to write patches for the panel etc.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-11
<DShepherd> so.. is the art direction decided yet?
<Toma-> turns out CDE is all the rage again.
<Toma-> throw a little splash of orange at it and off we go
<Toma-> :)
<DShepherd> Toma-, CDE?
<Toma-> never seen CDE?
<Toma-> http://www.nongnu.org/skencil/screenshots/0.6.16-solaris8-cde-plugins.png
<Toma-> the best 1993 has to offer
<DShepherd> hahah
<DShepherd> sweet!
<Toma-> tho in a very ironic way, it does kind of look like the xfce layout
 * Toma- wishes something different to windows 95 would be used
<lapo> hi
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<lassegul> hi guys!
<andreasn> hi lassegul!
<andreasn> how are things?
<lassegul> its good. ive just come home from 2 weeks in spain, on holidays. before that I started designing for money again with my friend, and its much fun.
<lassegul> andreasn: how are you?
<andreasn> I'm great! Attended a software conference here in gothenburg this weekend
<andreasn> pretty fun
<andreasn> other than that I'm just doing regular work
<lassegul> good good. anything new ubuntu-wise?
<andreasn> nothing really specific to ubuntu I guess, but I mentored a ghop student to check the status of HighContrast-svg, so hopefully we can improve that soon
<andreasn> and the firefox3 stuff
<darkmatter> meh. cairo is a pain in the ass. maybe I should finish reading the fscking manual
<andreasn> isn't there a irc channel for cairo or something?
<andreasn> lassegul: I remember what that really nice band I was talking about in Boston was
<andreasn> lassegul: Ulver
<lassegul> andreasn: thats true, they are nice.
<andreasn> kwwii: http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/ubuntu icon review part 1.html
<nothlit> do all the blurries have no svgs? or just no pixmaps produced for particular sizes
<nothlit> andreasn: wow i didn't know tomboy couod do html export now
<andreasn> it's because if the lack of pixmaps in the right size
<andreasn> yeah, I think it always have been able to do that
<andreasn> Preferences > Add-ins if it doesn't show up for you
<kwwii> andreasn: killer
<kwwii> andreasn: do we know which sizes are missing or how many sizes are missing?
<andreasn> it should be pretty easy to figure out I think
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> excellent, I'll post you some stuff I am working on later when I get it finished
<kwwii> I spent yesterday and today putting together the art direction and meeting results into document form and updating specs at the same time
<andreasn> sweet
<andreasn> maybe I should post this stuff in the wiki, + screenshots and stuff and links to individual bugs
<andreasn> Terminal Server client is fixed in trunk already if I recall correctly and stuff
<kwwii> andreasn: probably a good idea to post it on the wiki
<andreasn> where in there should I post it exactly? I'm pretty unfamiliar with the structure
 * _MMA_ runs naked through the channel. (flap, flap, flap)
<andreasn> flap, flap, flap... like http://youtube.com/watch?v=eT1mGjXitQU&feature=related ?
 * _MMA_ is scared to look.
<_MMA_> hahahahahaha
<andreasn> it's quite innocent really
<_MMA_> yeah. :)
<_MMA_> Pretty funny.
<kwwii> you gotta love german tv
<andreasn> wasn't that show host in the eurovision song contest a couple of years ago?
<Toma-> haha still gives a thumbs up to the camera
<kwwii> andreasn: yes, and now instead of competing himself he has a competition on his show for a german candidate
<cypherdelic> hey guys
<cypherdelic> im interested in helping for hardy
<cypherdelic> watch this
<cypherdelic> Watch my new great Background, composed of images from gnome,ubuntu and compiz(beryl) - http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maniacdebiankl3.jpg - Copyright reversed. Feel free to ask me for different resolutions or the xcf
 * _MMA_ looks
<cypherdelic> also different colors available if you like
<cypherdelic> come back for me i would like to help in special tasks if you like
<cypherdelic> pm me
<_MMA_> cypherdelic: Best to keep an eye on the WIKI.
<cypherdelic> ?
<cypherdelic> what do you mean?
<cypherdelic> do you like my background?
<_MMA_> The art really needs people who are self-sufficient. Nobody will come and get you.
<_MMA_> Personally, no. Ill get you the wiki link.
<Mandarancid> I don't like ...
<cypherdelic> i justed asked for because it's meant in the topic ping kwwii
<cypherdelic> Mandarancid: why?
<_MMA_> cypherdelic: Look through this page and the links. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<Mandarancid> Beacouse I don't find the link
<Mandarancid> with
<Mandarancid> beryl compiz gnome debian and ubuntu
<cypherdelic> you dont?
<Mandarancid> no, of course ubuntu is a debian derivate that use gnome and have the compiz support
<_MMA_> cypherdelic: You're also using scaled, low-res images in there. The Debian logo is obviously upscaled.
<Mandarancid> but this is ubuntu
<_MMA_> Its also out of aspect.
<Mandarancid> and not foresigth {for the gnome logo} or debian and not use beryl
<cypherdelic> isyes the left one is up-scaled
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: I think he's just using it to show his work. Not for actual consideration.
<cypherdelic> why not beryl?
<Mandarancid> beacouse beryl is an ended project sostitued by compiz
<Mandarancid> IMO the idea is good
<Mandarancid> but I use only the ubuntu logo
<cypherdelic> aha but the emerald demonstrates not beryl
<Mandarancid> Ah yes
<Mandarancid> !!
<Mandarancid> I don't remember it!! sorry..
<cypherdelic> it demonstrates the old beryl plugins that were merged to compiz fusion
<cypherdelic> the cuibe is compiz, the cube with emerald stand for compiz-fusion, that whats in ubuntu since gutsy
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: You're not identified. I didnt get a PM reply if you did.
<Mandarancid> MMA: wath??
<_MMA_> I cant see PMs from people who arent identified on Freenode. Is your nick registered?
<Mandarancid> No
<_MMA_> cypherdelic: Really it's all too much. It really comes across as muddy.
<Mandarancid> I must go to sleep here is late
<Mandarancid> good nigth and good work
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: Ok. Ill show you how tomorrow.
<cypherdelic> _MMA_: yeah, i know that, its made for junkys, that throw in some little ubuntus every day. i mean i like it, in the name of ubuntu :D
<_MMA_> If you like it thats all that matters.
<cypherdelic> yes and i can make it less muddy, with less colors
<cypherdelic> and replace the layer of the debian with highq
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-12
<Toma-> Is there a GTK theme builder/gui?
<lapo> hi
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<KidProQuo> does anyone know which icons (name and size) are used in the splash screen between GDM and the desktop?
<SloggerKhan> Thought I'd share this 'cause I amused myself with it: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=638517
<cursor> hey
<cursor> whens the next meeting?
<_MMA_> cursor: Ill look. Did you sign up on the mailing list?
<cursor> yeah just today
<cursor> i've had a look on the meeting section for artwork , and it says next meeting 1st of december
<cursor> think im a bit late haha
<kwwii> the next meeting should be some time around the beginning of january
<cursor> okay thanks
<kwwii> not sure what is best, as I will be in america on holiday
<kwwii> there will be a bunch of info coming out soon
<kwwii> the art direction, plans, etc
<kwwii> we might need to have a special meeting in a week or so
<cursor> oh nice , yeah i was just wondering what was going on really
<cursor> what happens with Derivatives of ubuntu , is the art direction for those decided by them or you?
<kwwii> they decide it for themselves
<kwwii> although I do the kubuntu artwork as well
<andreasn> ubuntu studio have a pretty clear vision where they want to go for example
<kwwii> but if someone else wanted to do kubuntu, I would gladly let them :-)
<andreasn> not sure about xubuntu
<kwwii> yeah, the ubuntu-studio stuff is very well planned and executed
<cursor> ah i see , id of thought you would define an overall specification to keep everything consistant
<kwwii> nope, we have discussed that sort of thing before but there is little interest in that
<cursor> though i surpose one of the reasons for having various Derivatives is to have on to suit everyone , including the art and feel of them
<cursor> *one
<kwwii> right
<Cursor101> damm wireless networking
 * _MMA_ holds his breath until he gets his ping 'n teal default Ubuntu theme.
<_MMA_> *pink
<Cursor101> lol
<Cursor101> pink and teal
<Cursor101> _MMA_: when you gonna start moving things on with ubuntu studio artwork?,once the ubuntu direction n so has been decided?
<_MMA_> cursor: Since the DIY concept didnt receive much help its been shelved for now. Ill work on it as I have time. The hardy work is half-done and Im pretty much handling it internally. Ill post the final stuff once its done.
<_MMA_> Only thing I was waiting on Ubuntu was for the icons but they arent changing this cycle so we wont either. Ive been adding some myself but no major changes.
<cursor> ahh pitty , thought people would like the DIY concept , different to the normal glossy effect thats found everywhere now
<cursor> haha
<cursor> i had a look at some of the work already done it looks pretty good
<_MMA_> Oh people like it. But just like Ubuntu not many people willing to work with a team or work at all. Just lip-service.
<cursor> oo right , well i dont mind doing something to help. To be honest it probably wont be the best work as i've rarely done any themeing in ubuntu but still
<_MMA_> Nothing against you personally, but that also common. You have to start somewhere. ;)
<_MMA_> *that's
<cursor> haha yup
<cursor> i have done quite a bit of work for a freelance company but that was mainly webdesign
<cursor> also it was cuban based so language became a problem
<cursor> but yeah im confident with the graphics side its just ow the whole gnome theming system works that i not got to grips with haha
<andreasn> _MMA_: lip-service? like all talk and no hockey?
<_MMA_> Correct.
<andreasn> never heard that expression before
<andreasn> but I'll make sure to remember it, it can come handy :)
<cursor> me neither , nor all talk no hockey haha
<cursor> though im from uk soo hockeys not a very popular sport
<_MMA_> Hmm... I woulda though tit was common. Maybe just an English (language) thing.
<cursor> sadly
<andreasn> well, the hockey thing is translated directly from swedish
<cursor> ooo right
<zniavre> hello i got a problems with a mod theme 1first how to get checboxe with darker font 2second how to deletre a small line between menubar and toolbar please?
<zniavre> http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7134/testvj6.jpg
<lapo> hi
<Cimi> kwwii, http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2007/12/12/gtk-rgba-transparent-widgets-with-the-murrine-engine/
<_MMA_> Slick Cimi. ;)
<Cimi> http://www.cimitan.com/blog/wp-content/murrine_rgba-3.jpg <-- update
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-13
<lapo> gi
<lapo> uhm, hi
<lassegul> hi
<kwwii> andreasn: do you have a link to that missing/needed icon info?
<andreasn> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/GutsyIconReview
<andreasn> (sorry for the delay)
<kwwii> andreasn: no worries, thanks for the link
<kwwii> until now I had the link to the temp stuff on your server :-)
<andreasn> I slept like 2,5 hours tonight before singing with my choir this morning (we have a odd tradition in sweden that we sing today and honor the Saint Lucia out of everyone)
<andreasn> so I feel asleep on the couch and just voke up
<lapo> oh nice
<lapo> well that page, not the fact andreasn slept 2.5 hours :-)
<lapo> andreasn: bittorrent download client is blurry as well tho
<lapo> andreasn: nad preferred applications makes no sense
<andreasn> lapo: hm, yes, a bit on the hard drive part
<lapo> andreasn: I think the icon is scaled
<andreasn> this was on a hardy live cd, so I can't check what the source is like
<lapo> file /pathtotheiconfile?
<cursor> hey
<cursor> _MMA_: did you say you was keeping the icon's same for next release of studio|
<cursor> ?
<_MMA_> cursor: Yes. Im adding little ones, but for the most part, its the same set.
<_MMA_> I will help Ubuntu work on there Hardy +1 set and might branch from that for ours.
<_MMA_> *theirs
<cursor> ah i see , soo not much point me attempting anything with the G-Flat set
<_MMA_> Oh there is a point.
<cursor> ahh okay
<_MMA_> As that *could* end up being out +1 set *if* I get enought help.
<_MMA_> *enough
<cursor> well i'll certainly help
<_MMA_> gah. Too many typos.
<_MMA_> But you get it.
<cursor> dont worry my typings terrible
<cursor> so they just need matching up with the tango icons colorising n resizing?
<cursor> i was thinking about doing a set before which looked like erm its hard to explain sort of if they'd been stamped on
<cursor> like this
<cursor> http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2313597/2/istockphoto_2313597_rubber_stamp_group_xxl.jpg
<cursor> thought that would nicley fit in with your DIY concept
<_MMA_> cursor: See, one thing troy_s and I have been thinking about is that it all might be too much. Too much of that distressed look might make things too messy.
<_MMA_> We're still thinking about it. Kinda slow going.
<cursor> yeah i understand
<_MMA_> Sorry. Family needs me. bbl.
<cursor> okay
<DanaG> Hmm, this page here has nice colors on its top bar:  http://www.456bereastreet.com/
<DanaG> (just a random observation.)
<kwwii> yeah, you find those colors in use quite a lot
<DanaG> Hmm, judging from the topic, is there some new proposed artwork already?  If so, I'm curious to see what it looks like.
<kwwii> nope, nothing that far along yet but there are some small changes we can make right away if someone steps up to help with the packaging
<DanaG> aah.
<DanaG> Right now I'm using this theme:  http://www.gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=2&id=69939&file1=69939-1.jpg&file2=69939-2.jpg&file3=&name=jellyfish
<DanaG> but I miss having orange.  I can't seem to find a shade of orange that works well with that theme.
 * kwwii is off to bed
<kwwii> ahhh, another day on vacation
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-14
<DanaG> Ooh, this DOES look cool: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
<DanaG> Though I still like Aurora.
<Toma-> impossible with the current gnome software
 * tehk can't wait for murrine 0.60 and translucent windows
<Toma-> its fake transparency right?
<Toma-> it wouldnt be dependant on a compmgr
<DanaG> Actually, it seems to be real transparency.
<DanaG> http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/12/12/gnome-theme-engine-designer-adds-transparency-to-gtk
<Toma-> The translucency effects obviously require a compositing window manager, but the theme engine is designed so that the widgets will simply be rendered without transparency when no compositing window manager is present.
<tehk> Yea so scaling is alreay there
<DanaG> WTF?  I just scrolled and stopped, and the screen kept scrolling for another 3 pages.
<lapo> hi
<cursor> ello
<mgunes> Is it a good idea to have Ubuntu branding instead of GNOME in gnome-system-monitor's "System" tab?
<kwwii> no, we decided not to brand that
<kwwii> we want to stay away from branding everything ubuntu
<somerville32> kwwii, ping
<kwwii> somerville32: pong
<somerville32> kwwii, I can package.
<kwwii> somerville32: killer, that would be great
<kwwii> it is not like the tings we do are very hard or technicaly challending
<kwwii> erm, you get my point
<somerville32> I'm surprised you guys are having trouble finding people to do it
<kwwii> yeah, I assumed that people would step up and help
<kwwii> the first thing we want to do is put the elephant wallpaper as the default version for Hardy
<somerville32> One question
<somerville32> Is there an artwork council?
<kwwii> that means moving the package to a new name and moving the current pics around
<kwwii> no, there is no artwork council, I am the boss :p
<somerville32> Ok.
<kwwii> actually, mark is the boss
<kwwii> and I am just the appointed person doing his bidding
<_MMA_> No, there's a problem finding a "dedicated" person to do it. ;)
<kwwii> as i work for canonical it makes most sense to do things through me
<kwwii> as I can ask developers for favors that they kinda *have* to do ;-)
<somerville32> lol
<_MMA_> kwwii: And what the hell are you doing around anyway? :) Shouldnt you be kicking back with a beer somewhere?
<kwwii> _MMA_: has to watch my kid while my wife is at a christmas party
<kwwii> and as he just went to bed I just popped open a beer :-)
<_MMA_> Ahh... ;)
<kwwii> get this...I found a couple of other people who have their own companies or work from home and we are all going out on monday to have our own christmas party
 * _MMA_ waits for a pizza. Then is gonna watch movies with the kids. (ironically while the wife also goes to a party) ;)
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> it is that time of the year
<_MMA_> Yep. hehe. "Work from home Christmas party." Neat.
<kwwii> actually, since I started renting an office away from home I really notice the difference
<kwwii> it is really nice to have a place to go and other people to see
<_MMA_> Yeah. I can imagine. Thats killing me now and I can wait to go back to work.
<_MMA_> I love 'em but I swear I wanna kill 'em more often now. :)
<somerville32> :)
<kwwii> getting away from home is really important now and again
<kwwii> btw. this is for everyone:
<kwwii> I updated the specs for hardy
<kwwii> so everyone knows where we stand
<kwwii> more info coming soon
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyIconTheme and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyTheme
<somerville32> kwwii, so, what do you want me to do?
<kwwii> somerville32: for now, we need to update gutsy-wallpapers
<kwwii> which means we need to make a new package called hardy-wallpapers
<_MMA_> somerville32: *IF* you do this you should also coordinate with TheMuso as he is coming up with a more manageable system for Ubuntu Studio's art.
<kwwii> and switch the current default and the elephant wallpapers
<kwwii> as far as the wallpapers go we need to think of a better way to update things
<_MMA_> kwwii: Its nuts to make a new package just for a wallpaper update.
<kwwii> as now we use a certain filename to set it
<kwwii> _MMA_: it is either that or get away from the release names at all
<somerville32> Why are you creating new packages?
<_MMA_> Id just update the Gutsy one and really look at the system Luke is coming up with.
<kwwii> somerville32: the important part is that the name of the package changes
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, we can do that, but we should all work together to find the best solution
<somerville32> kwwii, Why not just put it in a ubuntu-artwork package or something?
<kwwii> somerville32: yeah, that is what I thought too
<kwwii> we do not have one package which includes all the themeing
<kwwii> the reason seems to be that this way we can allow people to install older artwork packages without removing the current
<_MMA_> somerville32: Just talk to TheMuso. I dont want you running off and duplicating efforts.
<_MMA_> Our plan is to have 1 source package that generated all the needed binary packages.
<_MMA_> *generates
<kwwii> while that is interesting I am not certain that it is the best way to go about it
<kwwii> although kubuntu does it like that for ever and it works really well
<_MMA_> It would be fine.
<kwwii> you need someone who really knows what they are doing to update something or a simple mistake breaks everything
<_MMA_> What dont you think would work?
<kwwii> and changing one thing requires rebuilding almost everything in the whole desktop
<_MMA_> Naa....
<somerville32> Why do we need multiple binary packages?
<_MMA_> kwwii: It really shouldnt be that bug a deal.
<_MMA_> somerville32: Because not everyone would want to install it all.
<somerville32> Fair enough
<kwwii> well, we also have different releases of that package for every variant and release
<_MMA_> kwwii: Why?
<_MMA_> Well, actually, For some parts yes.
<kwwii> ;-)
<_MMA_> But it shouldnt be a big deal at all.
<kwwii> see how having one big package does change the way you have to do things?
<_MMA_> Because you can still depend on the binary packages.
<_MMA_> Sure but it shouldnt be an issue really. Ubuntu Studio's art should be different from Ubuntu. But I can still depend on a binary package the comes out of Ubuntus.
<kwwii> oh it is certainly doable
<_MMA_> kwwii: Show me exactly how it will be an issue, but I gotta read it later. Kids are calling me. :)
<kwwii> dude, I am not sure that it will be a real problem, I am just asking open questions :p
<somerville32> Hey TheMuso
<somerville32> We were just talking about packaging for Artwork
<somerville32> TheMuso, _MMA_ says that you're looking at ways to improve the process?
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> Yes I am.
<somerville32> kwwii, said that he is looking for packages and I've volunteered. _MMA_ recommends I coordinate with you.
<kwwii> no matter what we do, I don't want to waste anyones time
<TheMuso> Understandable.
<TheMuso> somerville32: SO what do you know so far about the current way the artwork is packaged?
<somerville32> TheMuso, That there is a new package for each release
<TheMuso> somerville32: SO you haven't dug any further yet
<somerville32> No, I've only started speaking with kwwii 30 minutes ago
<TheMuso> Right.
<kwwii> many packages are just small pieces of the themeing which get updated every release, and some have release specific names
<TheMuso> kwwii: Yeah I know, ubuntustudio is kinda the same.
<TheMuso> somerville32: Well, in its curren state, the artwork for Ubuntu uses autoconf/automake.
 * somerville32 nods.
<kwwii> not all of it
<TheMuso> kwwii: The ubuntu-artwork package proper is though afaik.
<TheMuso> sorry the icon theme
<kwwii> right
<TheMuso> Thats the one I'm looking at improving packaging for.
<TheMuso> Since ours is based on autoconf/automake, ours being ubuntustudio
<kwwii> many of our packages use python instead
<kwwii> it has proven to be much easier
<TheMuso> Python-distutils, yeah agreed.
<kwwii> exactly
<TheMuso> I'm thinking that is a good option for icon-theme.
<kwwii> basically, I know enough to know how much I don't know :p
<kwwii> yeah, moving the icon them from using a makefile would be a big improvement
<TheMuso> bbl, gotta go do chores, but I'll have a think about whats required to switch to distutils, considering there are so many icon dirs.
<kwwii> cool, see you around
<kwwii> somerville32: in any case, if we can at least update the stuff for hardy to use the elephant wallpaper as default instead of the current gutsy default it would be a good step forward
<somerville32> kwwii, and you want this in a new s/b package for now?
<kwwii> somerville32: yeah, that seems like the best step at this time
<_MMA_> I dont think it needs to be.
<_MMA_> That requires changing depends on other packages.
<_MMA_> Just keep using the Gutsy package with the default changed.
<_MMA_> *Gutsy named.
<_MMA_> That way you dont have to touch "ubuntu-artwork" as well.
<_MMA_> *IF* this is a temporary solution that is.
<kwwii> I do not think that at this time you have to touch ubuntu-artwork as well
<_MMA_> If you create a new package yes you will.
<kwwii> hrm, you might be right
<kwwii> seb128 would know more
<kwwii> but if we have to do that, I can just tell him to do it :p
<somerville32> I can update ubuntu-artwork too if needed
<somerville32> kwwii, It is your call
<_MMA_> Dammit. Just do like I said. :P Its 2 changes.
<kwwii> we should just ask seb
<kwwii> but it makes little sense logically to update a package for hardy called "gutsy-wallpapers"
<_MMA_> Well he would have to push the changes to the archive anyway.
<kwwii> then there would be no chance to install that package logically on a newer system
<_MMA_> But that only if you're sticking with the current packaging scheme.
<_MMA_> This can just be temp like I daid.
<_MMA_> *said
<kwwii> right
<_MMA_> I really think you're making this wallpaper change more than it needs to be. :P
<kwwii> :p
<_MMA_> I could see if you know your sticking with the current system but you keep talking about changing it.
<kwwii> mark said that we should update it asap
<kwwii> right, but changing it without knowing exactly what you are doing is silly
<_MMA_> Thats why changing the gutsy-named package for now is fine.
<_MMA_> I guess you have to say for what cycle you want to make the packaging change.
<kwwii> right, it probably is enough for now
<_MMA_> This or +1
<_MMA_> You could always use Ubuntu Studio's change as a test and switch +1.
<_MMA_> Maybe for now, its best to keep with the current system so as to minimize the amount of work involved for all.
<_MMA_> But that's your call.
<kwwii> _MMA_: I think we might as well change as now, but I want to only change once
<kwwii> so knowing exactly what you are doing and discussing it with other devs is important before we change
<_MMA_> Sure. So for now, just change the gutsy-named package and work with Ubuntu Studio on their system. There's no reason why we can also involve seb.
<kwwii> right
<_MMA_> gah. *cant (you got it)
<somerville32> So, whats the verdict?
<_MMA_> I've said my piece. ;)
<kwwii> I think that the most important part for now is that we update things
<kwwii> we can work out the long term plan later
<kwwii> gotta run to get my wife
<kwwii> brb
<somerville32> Ok, so I'll keep the current model and create a new source package and update the ubuntu-artwork package to reflect
<kwwii> somerville32: sounds like the best plan for now
<_MMA_> pfftt. Sayz you.
<somerville32> lol
<_MMA_> ;)
<somerville32> So, gutsy-elephant-skin.jpg -> ubuntu-final.jpg ?
<_MMA_> Should be.
 * _MMA_ thought they were .pngs?
<_MMA_> And you're editing the wallpapers.xml file right?
<_MMA_> Damn. Gotta go. bbl
<kwwii> somerville32: yeah, but we probalby need to include the old default under another name
<somerville32> dholbach already updated the package in hardy to archive the gutsy stuff
<somerville32> Is the first item in ubuntu-wallpapers.xml.in the default or something?
<_MMA_> Actually, the default is set in a gconf key.
<_MMA_> So your wallpaper has to be named the same thing or you need to touch the package that sets the key.
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> the names in the xml should be apparetn
<kwwii> nt
<somerville32> the elephant background is not png like simple was
<somerville32> so I'll have to update that package
<kwwii> erm, shit
<somerville32> or  convert it to png
<_MMA_> See... this is why the system needs to be changed.
<kwwii> no doubt
<kwwii> I forgot about that part
<kwwii> the easy way is to just convert it to png
<_MMA_> So the new Hardy package needs to be named the same.
<_MMA_> gah
<kwwii> or change the package and then also change the gconf setting
<kwwii> man, see what I mean when I say that an artist should not have to deal with this stuff?
<_MMA_> Well I would do both. (as long as someones touching it) Change the gconf setting to something generic like "ubuntu.png" and stick with that from now on.
<_MMA_> Then change the wallpaper name.
<somerville32> ubuntu-final.png is what we have been using
<kwwii> yeah, probably the best bet although I would like to really discuss the final fname with people to find what is really best
<somerville32> err.. final-ubuntu.png
<somerville32> so I'll convert elephant to png
<kwwii> I mean, the whole problem we have now is because a few people made a quick decision which sucked
<_MMA_> "We" as in Xubuntu?
<kwwii> somerville32: yeah, for now that is enough
<somerville32> What does Xubuntu have to do with this?
<_MMA_> "somerville32: ubuntu-final.png is what we have been using" "_MMA_: "We" as in Xubuntu?"
<kwwii> xubuntu has nothing to do with this
<kwwii> lol
<somerville32> _MMA_, We as in this package :P
<kwwii> I am pretty sure they have their own name
<kwwii> we as in ubuntu
<_MMA_> The Ubuntu one should have "warty" in the name.
<_MMA_> Not just "final-ubuntu.png".
<somerville32> Ah, right
<_MMA_> Hence the question. ;)
<kwwii> warty-final-ubuntu.png has to be the name for now
<_MMA_> And thats the whole reason we have this problem.
<kwwii> exactly
<kwwii> but before we just go pick another name at random, let's think this out first
<_MMA_> Like I keep saying "ubuntu.png" or even "final-ubuntu.png" is good.
<kwwii> probably, but maybe there is something better
<_MMA_> But I wouldnt so systemic changes until we get seb, luke and all of us together.
<kwwii> I cannot think of anything better, but I want to have a meeting about this and get people's official opinions and statements before making a mistake
<kwwii> right
<_MMA_> Naa... Nice and generic. Otherwise you risk the same situation we have now.
<_MMA_> w00t! Pizza's here.
<kwwii> w00t, the word of the year
<kwwii> I love that fact
<mgunes> kwii, what's the rationale in not branding g-s-m's "System" tab?
<kwwii> mgunes: we only brand important things so that derivatives have an easier time at it
<andreasn_> hm, I wonder what the gnome foot is doing in there
<andreasn> why have any logo at all there
<andreasn> =
<andreasn> ?
<kwwii> right
<mgunes> kwii, I think this should be included in "important things"
<kwwii> hi andreasn
<andreasn> hey
<kwwii> mgunes: actually, we had a long discussion about this before gutsy
<mgunes> if anything is going to appear there at all, OS branding makes more sense
 * TheMuso return
<TheMuso> returns
<mgunes> kwii, in the mailing list? I'd like to read it
<kwwii> mgunes: nope
<kwwii> it was a private discussion within canonical
<mgunes> kwwii, how exactly does rebranding make it more difficult for derivatives? I'm not arguing that it shouldn't; I'd just like to learn how
<kwwii> it makes one more pic to change
<kwwii> and it also makes things nasty when you run on app in another desktop/variant
<kwwii> in the end, I did make pics for it but they were removed
<kwwii> and it really does seem right to show that, if anything, it is a gnome desktop
<kwwii> nautrally, we could bring the issue up again and see what comes of it
<_MMA_> mgunes: Really, for Ubuntu Studio, I dont wanna have to brand every little thing. Im cool with not hiding everything mentioning GNOME.
<mgunes> it's not the best place to show that it's a gnome desktop. System / About GNOME does that. the info presented in the g-s-m capplet is more closely associated with the operating system than the desktop environment
<kwwii> actually, we are also working on makeing a bling version of the about stuff
 * mgunes knows
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyShine?highlight=%28%5EDesktopTeam%2FSpecs%2F.%2A%29
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> lol, this makes me wonder when the artwork team really rocked: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_124/2645-Riding-the-Failure-Cascade
<mgunes> I think the professional touch it adds would be worth the tiny bit of work it adds for derivatives
<_MMA_> Also, that colored gradient in g-s-m is pulled from the theme so I dont know how that image is actually done.
<kwwii> it is a funky thing
<kwwii> it has a pic which it lays on a bg, irrc
<_MMA_> I also dont believe in removing all traces of GNOME branding. Where does it end?
<kwwii> much like all other gnome themeing things, it seems like a freaky hack
<kwwii> :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: Well the "foot" itself is colored from the gtkrc.
<mgunes> _MMA_, I'm not arguing for removing all traces of GNOME branding. it just doesn't fit into this particular place, unlike OS branding.
<_MMA_> Like I said "Where does it end?".
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-15
<kwwii> I laughed for like 2 days when I figured out that the splash screen accepts normal png files but still only does 8bit transparency
<_MMA_> kwwii: meh. :)
<mgunes> I'm not concerned about where it ends, because, as I said, I'm not saying "the less DE branding, the better"
<mgunes> I'm talking about one specific thing
<kwwii> for now all I can say is that officialy we have discussed this and decided not to do it
<kwwii> it is a gerneral rule which I thinkis totally ok to follow
<_MMA_> Even in this instance I really dont think it matters. :) Any you "Murat" are just talking about this one thing but what about the next person, and the next. I really think the amount of branding we can do now is good. The more you remove the more I think it insults GNOME. Just me. ;)
<_MMA_> s/Any/And
<kwwii> that is kinda the tinking behind it
<mgunes> kwwii, could you comment on bug 176417 to reflect this?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 176417 in gnome-system-monitor ""System" tab should have Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176417
<kwwii> done
<mgunes> thanks
<kwwii> np
<somerville32> Ok
<somerville32> I think I got a package :)
<kwwii> somerville32: killer
<kwwii> if you can do a debuild on it we can get someone to include it
<kwwii> we need to post the links to the debuild pieces of every package to a motu dev
<kwwii> normally, I can see that this happens
<_MMA_> Really, if this *is* a temp package its WAY more work then it needs to be. :P
<kwwii> in any case, I would start by posting links to those debuild things in the ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop channel
<kwwii> _MMA_: temp until we figure out the final scheme
<kwwii> that is a long way
<kwwii> it will probably stay with this packaging until we have the final stuff done for hardy
<_MMA_> Then no need to build a new package.
<_MMA_> Just update the current one in BZR and have Seb push the changes.
<somerville32> Oh
<kwwii> _MMA_: I would rather take this step now and see how things work out
<kwwii> if we cannot change things, we only need to update a few parts
<somerville32> This is confusing.
<kwwii> if we do change it, well, we change it and have to work on it
<kwwii> for now, this is the right thing to do
<kwwii> several people have already told me why we cannot change things
<kwwii> so it might be a step we want to in hardy+1 first
<_MMA_> Guaranteed, you _WILL_ have to touch this package again.
<_MMA_> oh.
<_MMA_> Then if thats the case, (+1) you should have said when I asked. :)
 * somerville32 would like to note that there is already a ubuntu-wallpapers package
<_MMA_> kwwii: I'll just strangle you in April. :P
<kwwii> somerville32: right, that was before my time, and we probably want to go back to that
<kwwii> although with a different name for the actual pic
<somerville32> kwwii, It has been updated for hardy
<somerville32> It already conflicts gutsy-wallpapers
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> have to talk to seb about this tuff
<kwwii> stuff
<kwwii> I have no idea :-)
<somerville32> Or maybe dholbach since he seems to be the one doing the work
<kwwii> the biggest problem is that dholbach is no longer working on this stuff
<_MMA_> somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?
<kwwii> so he can also give information and an opinion but he will not work on this in the future
<somerville32> _MMA_, yes
<somerville32> I think it is best we disregard what I've done tonight and wait until we have a meeting with all the players
<somerville32> There seems to be a lot of duplication going on
<kwwii> right
<somerville32> ubuntu-artwork depends on ubuntu-wallpapers and not gutsy-wallpapers
<_MMA_> If everyone would just listen to me it would be fine! :P
<_MMA_> Oh well. kwwii will just end up copying Ubuntu Studio's package for +1. ;)
<somerville32> kwwii, It seems like we've already migrated to using a standard ubuntu-wallpaper package in Hardy
<somerville32> And it is managed in bazaar
<_MMA_> The package isnt the big problem. Though this helps, its the naming of the wallpaper.
<somerville32> _MMA_, and what are you recommending?
<_MMA_> But after Hardy does seem like the best time to have a new setup.
<kwwii> somerville32: hrm, perhaps we should talk to others before moving on
<kwwii> maybe things have changed without me knowing about it
<somerville32> Things _have_ moved
<somerville32> I'm looking at the hardy packages right now
<_MMA_> Not the way they need to though.
<kwwii> lol, and they expect me to know about that without telling me
<_MMA_> The file name needs to be standard.
<_MMA_> We're going around in circles.
<somerville32> _MMA_, It is standard. :P
<_MMA_> "_MMA_: somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?" "somerville32: _MMA_, yes"
<somerville32> _MMA_, Everything is now standard. The only thing weird is the standard name for the standard background - it still starts with warty-
<_MMA_> "_MMA_: The file name needs to be standard."
<somerville32> I think we're arguing semantics
<kwwii> so what has changed?
<somerville32> kwwii, there is a ubuntu-wallpapers package and ubuntu-artwork depends on it
<_MMA_> No. Its the same thing Ive said all day today and before you joined the channel for weeks now. ;)
<_MMA_> kwwii: The *package* name has changed only. Not the file name.
<kwwii> hehe
<somerville32> Who cares about the file name?
<somerville32> Thats the smallest problem
<_MMA_> No its not.
<kwwii> hehe, that is what all the other devs said
<kwwii> it is very important
<kwwii> but for now, we can just update that packagte
<_MMA_> Naming it based on a release was short-sighted.
<kwwii> pachage
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> package
<somerville32> The big issue was that the package name was dependent on the release name - ie. it kept changing each release
<somerville32> That caused problems
<_MMA_> No, as that can be a easy depend change. Change the file name of the default wallpaper breaks upgrades.
<_MMA_> *Changing
<somerville32> Are we planning to change the filename for the default wallpaper each release?
<_MMA_> No. Just a one time change to something generic.
<kwwii> the update system just has to check for that
<kwwii> it is not that big of a deal
<_MMA_> But like Ken finally said, it should be done for +1.
<somerville32> The fact that the file name is currently not generic is NOT a big deal.
<kwwii> nope
<somerville32> Having to create a new package each release, IMHO, is tedious and was the issue and it seems resolved
<_MMA_> somerville32: Its a big deal if people have been wanting change it since friggin Hardy. If people didnt want to change it sure. Doesnt matter.
<_MMA_> Its just a oddity. An OCD kinda thing. Still it was short-sighted.
<somerville32> Right
<somerville32> So, I don't see how you can value this change over the now not having to create a new package each release
<somerville32> Whatever the filename is, it really makes no difference besides being "neat" and logical.
<_MMA_> Well earlier in the chat kwwii said the new "package" was called "hardy-". Thats bad as far as making a new package every time.
<somerville32> The new package is ubuntu-wallpapers
<_MMA_> But what started all this was simple the file name.
<_MMA_> *simply
<somerville32> What package needs to be changed?
<somerville32> To change the default name?
<_MMA_> So like I said the package could be called anything. The filename has been the issue.
<_MMA_> Um...
<_MMA_> Im not sure.
 * _MMA_ looks.
<somerville32> _MMA_, I disagree. The filename IMHO is not an issue at all, just an oddity
<_MMA_> TheMuso might know off-hand.
<_MMA_> somerville32: Dammit! Its an issue because its what started this chat! :) Odd as it is.
<somerville32> _MMA_, Weird. I'm pretty sure it was the workflow
<_MMA_> Someone noticed many releases ago that it was called warty still but changing it would break things. Thats why we''re having this chat. :)
<somerville32> Then this would be a big waste of time.
<_MMA_> Ubuntu Studio sets the default in our -settings package. I gotta look to see where Ubuntu does it.
<somerville32> kwwii, I see you're an admin of ~ubuntu-art-pkg
<kwwii> somerville32: yepp
<_MMA_> somerville32: Ubuntu does it in "ubuntu-artwork" Look in "/usr/share/gconf/defaults"
<somerville32> _MMA_, I don't see it setting the background image
<somerville32> _MMA_, only themes
<_MMA_> /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
<TheMuso> _MMA_: for what?
 * kwwii heads off to sleep
<_MMA_> somerville32: Sorry. /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_gutsy-wallpapers
<_MMA_> TheMuso: We found it. What package sets the art defaults in Ubuntu.
<TheMuso> Ah ok.
<somerville32> Umm...
<_MMA_> somerville32: So Im guessing the new one will be "/usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-wallpapers" And the 1st line still reads "/desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename "/usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-ubuntu.png""
<somerville32> That file doesn't belong to ubuntu-artwork
<somerville32> It appears to me that it is indeed gutsy-wallpapers
<_MMA_> Synaptic shows different.
<_MMA_> Crap.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> go to bed
<TheMuso> luke@marin:~$ dpkg -S /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
<_MMA_> Yeah.
<TheMuso> ubuntu-artwork: /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
<TheMuso> luke@marin:~$
<kwwii> dream about it
<TheMuso> hrm. Ubuntu-artwork is not maintained in bzr?
<_MMA_> So kwwii I think you need to get a meeting together with the interested parties so we can go over this for +1. Or, just copy what Ubuntu Studio does. ;)
<kwwii> ;-)
<somerville32> _MMA_, What do you guys do?
<_MMA_> Well we're looking at moving all the art to 1 source package.
<_MMA_> Minus the settings though.
<_MMA_> I guess we'll have to look at that.
<somerville32> kwwii, So can you add me to that team?
<kwwii> Cody A.W. Somerville ?
<somerville32> Correct
<kwwii> done
<somerville32> Thanks
<somerville32> kwwii, Are you going to schedule a meeting?
<somerville32> I'm eager to see things get resolved.
<kwwii> somerville32: yes, in a day or so I will announce another meeting this omnth
<kwwii> month
<somerville32> kwwii, Shouldn't we get this squared away before Alpha 2?
<kwwii> we should try to do it as soon as possible
<kwwii> BUT, I am on vacation and have other work to do as well
<somerville32> I know in the past we've had artwork freezes and what not
<somerville32> Do we have a schedule for hardy?
<somerville32> (maybe we could update the topic to provide some of that info/links to important docs?)
<_MMA_> You know, Ubuntu Studio just follows Daniels "-look" package. And actually the only thing outside of our "-look" package is the icons.
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah
<kwwii> nobody wanted to deal with that
<_MMA_> Outside of the "-look" source package.
<kwwii> I made a howto and everything
<_MMA_> Did you work with Daniel on the -look package?
<kwwii> yes
<_MMA_> Well why didnt they switch since Daniel made it?
<_MMA_> they=Ubuntu
<kwwii> 2am here, going to bed really soon
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> I think they wanted me to do it
<_MMA_> You said that an hour ago. :P
<kwwii> no doubt
<_MMA_> TheMuso: https://launchpad.net/example-look
 * TheMuso pulls the branch associated with that project.
<_MMA_> Hehe. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg
<TheMuso> Does example-look get used for anything currently?
 * _MMA_ didnt know there was a team. :P
<_MMA_> kwwii: Luke is gonna join the team. Please approve so he can clean it up like he did our source.
<_MMA_> There's files everywhere that should be removed.
<_MMA_> Duplicates and such.
<TheMuso> Join request sent.
<dilomo> hi all
<Cimi> kwwii, did you read my blog?
<kwwii> hi Cimi
<kwwii> no but I saw a pic from you
<Cimi> so read it
<kwwii> will do
<kwwii> hehe, and you told me I was crazy
<Cimi> kwwii, yes
<Cimi> nautilus can't be patched of course
<kwwii> why is that?
<Cimi> ?
<kwwii> why can't nautilus be patched?
<Cimi> cause I don't want an alpha-capable nautilus :)
<Cimi> there's no reason
<kwwii> well, if you think about it there is really no good reason to do any of this at all
<kwwii> it is all about making things look nice
<kwwii> anyway, I would not suggest making the whole window transparent
<Cimi> that's why we can't patch nautilus :)
<kwwii> well, if you add transparency to any window it should be added to all windows, I think
<kwwii> otherwise it will look quite freaky to see some transparent apps and some not
<Cimi> so we just say "yes it is possible" but we won't do anything
<kwwii> :p
<Cimi> kwwii, did you reached any mockup^
<Cimi> ?
<kwwii> actually, right now I am on holiday but I am still working on stuff
<kwwii> there will be a whole row of mockups ready be the beginning of the new year
<Cimi> ok perfect
<Cimi> did you talked with mark about my sponsorship? I've worked a lot as you can see
<kwwii> yes, we layed out plans for what we need to change and made it clear that sponsorship is needed
<kwwii> but anything to do with money has to go through my boss
<Cimi> why?
<kwwii> because it is a company, like any other
<kwwii> I can only be responsible for so much at any given time
<Cimi> so we should ask canonical?
<kwwii> I work for canonical, and my boss does as well
<kwwii> so we are asking canonical ;-)
<Cimi> in the end
<kwwii> I'll talk to scott and find out more info and get back to you
<Cimi> what do i have to do? :D
<Cimi> ok
<kwwii> mainly it is about impressing mark enough for him to say "I want to do this" and then we say "well, we have to pay someone to do it"
<Cimi> kk
 * darkmatter looks at current state of his prototype and laughs insanely
 * Toma- joins in the laughter
<darkmatter> hmmm... I'm thinking fine diagonal for  few elements.....
<andreasn> darkmatter: hm?
<andreasn> darkmatter: screenshot?
<darkmatter> andreasn: not yet. its still 80% clearlooks. but last weeks shots are on my flickr page :)
<andreasn> hm, let's see, do I have you as a friend?
<darkmatter> andreasn: am finishing up initial mockups. then refining. lots of ideas to make it look really nice once I do more engine work. going to be very clean, elegant, professional. no super dark outlines on the widgets (more natural looking, but still distinct), little niceties like (on the initial gilouche coloured build) fine diagonal pinstripes in the g-m-m header :)
<andreasn> what's your url to you flickr page now again?
<darkmatter> to kill the plastic look
<andreasn> sounds cool
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/
<darkmatter> oops. thats the gallery
<andreasn> ok, added you as a contact
<darkmatter> ok
<darkmatter> added you as well
<Toma-> has there been any talk about ditching the whole windows 95 layout in terms of panels with start buttons?
<darkmatter> *shrugs*
<Toma-> 12 years on people still emulate it :\
<darkmatter> indeed
<kwwii> Toma-: what is your sollution to that problem?
<andreasn> there are some nice approaches like gimmie, awn and Big Board coming up
<Toma-> kwwiiâ i rather like the e17 way of things with the favorites menu
<Toma-> and a launcher if its really needed
<darkmatter> I have a cool approach in the works, have a couple devs waiting for mockups.. really need to get those finished
<Toma-> Gimme is a cool idea
<kwwii> ahhh, so we copy osx instead :p
<Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17fireball.png
<Toma-> thats my layout at the moment
<Toma-> moves alot of the focus away from panels
<kwwii> right, I am using awn in gnome as well
<Toma-> darn zombie processes
<andreasn> awn is nice, I use that as well
<Toma-> yeh but then, awn is an osx rip off
<andreasn> gimmie is promising since it cares about people and documents
<andreasn> but not quite polished
<darkmatter> kwwii: an interactive, user aware information display for the main ui, a 'menu' that is also user aware, (Pndora is the name of the concept), both are tied into the desktop 'first mate' (Nostromo) which is basically a stream-based 'activity center'
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> *Pandora
<kwwii> right and you are going to come and teach my wife how to use this in 5 years when it is ready, right?
<Toma-> I think Gimme was probably inspired by this mockup, which as you can see, people like. http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/May-B?content=45837
<andreasn> rip off and rip off, it's a interface that takes care of launching and running your apps...
<Toma-> kind of ditches the win95 and mac layout
<kwwii> I have nothing against changing things around but there are lots of issues involved and simply being different for the sake of being different isn't always the best answer
<andreasn> yeah
<kwwii> that is a pretty neat mockup though
<Toma-> kwwiiâ yeh. but at the same time, evolution is needed when you have windows and mac on the sides trying out all sorts of things
<kwwii> true as well
<kwwii> well, time to take my son to a basketball game...bbl
<darkmatter> kwwii: true, but what about 'being different for the sake of being better'? ;)
<kwwii> :-)
<Toma-> yeh id hate to just keep rolling along for years giving the wheel a fresh lick of paint, when we should really be designing a hovercar :)
<andreasn> I think one needs to think in terms of "does a alternative provide us with a better interface that solves a problem" rather than "it's a win95 ripoff"
<Toma-> andreasnâ the windows 95 thing is centered around the whole "Click here to start" thought. If you have a panel and a decent way to manage open windows, you can look at better ways to ditch the layout
<Toma-> and we do have that option
<Toma-> to an extent the current menu bar thing is doing something different, but really its just spreading Start button over 3 buttons
<andreasn> I agree that the current default is not ideal at all, after all, I use awn as it scales better :=
<andreasn> :)
<andreasn> but I try to stay off thinking about such basic concepts as panel approaches, there are smarter people out there that can work that out than me :)
<Toma-> :)
<andreasn> time for lunch, later!
<Toma-> l8r
<darkmatter> andreasn: depends. a stream based interface is more task/activity oriented. puts the data first. it also serves to unify things in a more logical manner. the only 'hurdle' as such is the actual interface design. and as far as the main ui goes, its still basically a panel/'slab' type thing, it just works on an entirely different level :)
<Toma-> darkmatterâ is that the way sugar works?
<darkmatter> but the pael wouldn't be a panel. more of a 'dashboard' of sorts
<darkmatter> Toma: as far as more of an 'activity center' approach.. I believe so
<Toma-> right
<darkmatter> Toma-: I believe in putting the data first and foremost. basically, abstracting things so that the actual app is of little importance. its still used, but is just a tool that gets selected when we choose to perform a specific task
<Toma-> i c
<darkmatter> Toma-: I was discussing this in a lot of detail a week or two ago, and someone pointed me to a concept-project that is actually quite similar. I'l link
<darkmatter> http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/freeman/lifestreams.html
<Toma-> oh neat :D
<darkmatter> one of the elements to making the desktop more of a home (aside from naturalizing workflow in a more organic way), is really stupid-simple to do. its a matter of personalizing (makin the system more user aware). it could be things as simple as a local-time based welcome/part message on login/off, power on/shutdown, whatever. to thing's more complicated, like having certain interface elements 'learn' from the user
<darkmatter> as far as personalizing goes, it seems rather frivolous, but is really a matter of user-psychology
<Toma-> im sure with a little bit of philosophising we could all come up with something alot more streamlined
<darkmatter> yup
<Toma-> thats what holidays are for :>
<darkmatter> Toma-: on element I've been attempting to storyboard/discuss is communication, when it comes down to it, be it email, chat (voip, text, video), whatever - there is really no difference between our primary forms of communication (ok, technically the protocols vary, but we are addressing things from the user perspective). so I've been looking at a way to centralize things. basically  akin in some ways to gimmies 'people' but more flex
<darkmatter> ible (and thus powerful)
<darkmatter> *one
<Toma-> indeed
<Toma-> a strong communication platform is a good basis. its a shame about so many protocols but in seperate apps, the protocols are adressed quite well
<Toma-> for instance, my parents still bug me about how to email a photo to someone
<Toma-> use this program to import, this one to resize it, this one to send it.
<darkmatter> Toma-: yup. they need to be centralized in a 'meta addressbook' of sorts, one that is protocol aware (can display status), etc, and it should have a nice, user friendly, custom widget for 'send to'. that way by clicking the appropriate method (envelope for email or whatever, etc) it sends directly
<darkmatter> remove all the crud in the middle
<darkmatter> action > result
<Toma-> yeh
<Toma-> infact, even a central sort of active contents destination would be good
<darkmatter> yup
<Toma-> use a little popup for 'what do you want to do with this file/s?'
<darkmatter> yup
<Toma-> kde does it for inserted media, but it could be used better for content youre working on
<darkmatter> what would be really cool (been discussing it as well) but would be a pain in the arse to implement would be a 'natural language' command line. so you could type something like "steven, here's is a picture of my dog bobo at my parents place' and have the system send it. the issue being obviously that syntax varies.. but still an interesting idea
<Toma-> its possible
<Toma-> look at how chat-bots are created
<darkmatter> but more realisically it would be like 'email bobo.png to steven "heare's a picture of my dog that was taken at my parents place"'
<Toma-> http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=f5d922d97e345aa1
<Toma->  Human: Can you email my picture to darkmatter?
<Toma-> ALICE: Sure I can email. What is your email address? Your picture to darkmatter?
<Toma-> :D
<darkmatter> :)
<darkmatter> that's what my current gtk engine project is a part of. its basically a first small step to creating a more inviting, more natural feeling environment. making the 'desktop' feel more organic visually, still the same elements obviously, but less artificial
<Toma-> cool
<darkmatter> I'm sick of all the hard, plastic feeling lines that are the norm in interface design.
<Toma-> yeh :(
<Toma-> gloss makes me feel like im in a hospital or something
<darkmatter> LOL. it took me long enough to make the initial button design feel 'real'. but in general the design should be 'soft'. use light and shadow to define shape
<darkmatter> yeah. I dont like the whole 'web 2.0' desktop graphics movement either
<darkmatter> I'm not into minimalism either. but a lot of the minimalistic stuff does feel a lot more natural than not
<darkmatter> Toma-: but the nice thing is I've actually caught the attention of some devs who are interested in 'playing'. so I'm going to finish spitting out the live mockup of the gtk real quick, then do up a few quick ui mockups and see if we can get some stuff started :D
<darkmatter> brb.
<Toma-> wb
<darkmatter> :)
<darkmatter> andreasn: ignore the general look, it still looks primarily like clearlooks, but I'd like your opinion on the scrollbars
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/2112165573/
<Toma-> right side of the raised slider looks a little lost since the background is nearly the same colour at the slider, imho
<darkmatter> hmmm... yeah
<darkmatter> hmm... clipping the gradient a bit should fix that
<Toma-> *nod*
<darkmatter> Toma-: the fun part is I'm working on everything twice. first mockup a particular set of widgets in pixmaps, then one its 'good enough' for releasible quality I crack open my build dir and start messing in cairo. and its actually a lot less work that way, as I avoid constant rebuilds ;)
<Toma-> sounds sensible :) I did the same sort of thing in SVG when i made my e17 theme
<darkmatter> hmm.. I shouls do a matching e theme one its done :)
<darkmatter> *should
<Toma-> yeh the clearlooks port looks terrible
<darkmatter> *nods*
<darkmatter> Toma-: I was actually thinking that, with all the animations that can add bling, a really clean, rice paper level of minimalism would look really neat in e. take the common 'rainbow ribbon' motif that is used to spice up minimal themes and animate it :D
<Toma-> yeh
<Toma-> i only used a little splash of animation in my theme
<Toma-> makes it alot less 'flash-for-the-sake-of-being-flash'
<darkmatter> well. not necessarily that minimal, but maybe gaia like *shrugs*
<Toma-> ahh yeh
<darkmatter> Toma-: yeah. I vew animation as a tool. basically it should help bring focus
<darkmatter> like, with the engine I'm working on for gtk, subtle 'pulse' animations on mouseover
<darkmatter> nothing drastic
<Toma-> http://julius.sourceforge.jp/en_index.php?q=en/index.html && http://www.alicebot.org/about.html && http://www.stanford.edu/~dramage/gci/
<Toma-> :)
<Toma-> that sounds nice
<Toma-> i didnt know gtk could do animations
<darkmatter> Toma-: and it should be used to smooth transitions as well. thats about it imho
<Toma-> Speech to text && AI Robot && command line
<darkmatter> yup. bookmarked :)
<Toma-> time for sleep and more holidaying. cheerio
<darkmatter> Toma-: currently I'm just really working on defining the feel of the lighting for the gtk, so basically it will initially feel a little like a softened clearlooks (long way about it, but probably the best path) once thats done then the fun begins, going to give it a more artsy feel, but still practical enough in design to appeal to a wide range of users (I want the engine to 'work' for the home, the office, the minimalist, and those
<darkmatter>  with a more refined aesthetic) but I most definitely dont want it to be drab or generic
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-16
<DanaG> Have you seen Fedora 8's time-varying wallpaper?
<DanaG> It's a wonderful feature.  Is there any chance of seeing that feature in Hardy?
<cursor> hey
<darkmatter> 'ello
<darkmatter> hmm.. ok.. diagonal pinstripes rock.. now on to the rest of the gtk
<cursor> lol
<cursor> whens the next meeting about the art direction?
<darkmatter> damn thing is taking forever...
<darkmatter> cursor: not sure
<cursor> aahhh okay
<cursor> thanks
<cursor> be back in a bit
<cleaton> Condoulo, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
<cleaton> =)
<Condoulo> still going with the brownish theme so far?
<cleaton> as i understand it, the idea is african colors
<rico_> are there other proposed themes other than that?
<cleaton> yes
<cleaton> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate
<Condoulo> I don't know why, but it just doesn't... appeal to me.
<rico_> can I post my comments on those wiki pages without logging in?
<cleaton> i'm not sure
<Condoulo> I just don't like dark brownish themes. At least not on a desktop computer. Thats why I personally didn't like the default wallpaper in 7.10.
<cleaton> but lucky it's easy to change :P
<Condoulo> yeah, true. :P
<rico_> same here actually
<cleaton> it dosen't have to be darkish brown
<cleaton> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/AfricaColors
<Condoulo> many that I talked to when I first seen the concept about Ubuntu 8.04 was going to have a Visual refresh, commented on how the colors should be different. Me, personally, I don't mind the light browns and oranges.
<cleaton> i think it's nice to still keep the ubuntu feel
<cleaton> just make it modern
<Condoulo> Yeah. :) But dark brown just doesn't fit that.
<Condoulo> But maybe thats just me.
<Condoulo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/FreshTheme (I like this concept. :))
<cleaton> i like how the full pic links are reverse
<Condoulo> lol. Yeah.
<cleaton> :P
<cleaton> i would like a super slim theme, but that might not be good as a general theme
<cleaton> :P
<Condoulo> Yeah
<kwwii> lol, I love it when people ask the same questions again and again without reading the information which is easily available
<kamstrup> why?
<kamstrup> why?
<kamstrup> why?
<somerville32> Heya kwwii
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-08
<douchebag> sup guys
<thorwil> _MMA_: we recently established about 2 ways how you could do reflections very well to please troy. here's an example of yet another: http://bp3.blogger.com/_EHZsoUS6SIA/R-r8qaO2gsI/AAAAAAAAAIU/gRV0fxPDRFw/s1600-h/canon.jpg
<_MMA_> Oh hell with Troy. :)
 * _MMA_ clicks.
<_MMA_> hahahahhaa
<_MMA_> That's funny. :)
<thorwil> with that schedule and poor audio, my hopes are with the uds videos :/
<_MMA_> Audio has been fine for me. Video likely to show http://www.youtube.com/ubuntudevelopers and video.ubuntu.com.
<thorwil> good night! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-09
<luisbg> kwwii: taking a nap? LOL
<dariusdwtt> so whats happening with jaunty?
<_MMA_> dariusdwtt: As far as?
<luisbg> _MMA_: welcome back
<luisbg> kwwii: hasnt sent the pic
<luisbg> s/://
<troy_s> Happy season to all.
<_MMA_> Dammit! Missed him.
<luisbg> fecker
<robsta> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi robsta
<thorwil> robsta: how do you feel about drawing widgets on focused windows differently, that is having 2 sets of widgets for focused vs unfocused windows?
<robsta> thorwil: (1) don't ask me about my opinion how things should look; (2) think i've observed this with firefox on OSX, it would look greyed out when unfocused; (3) not sure it's possible with gtk, think widgets are not redrawn on toplevel focus change.
<robsta> or maybe you only referred to technical feasibility, which is of course totally ok :P
<thorwil> robsta: i'd be nice if you could check if it is possible. and lobby for it if it isn't ;)
<thorwil> robsta: my qiestion was a combined: can it be done, can you do it, would you do it ;p
<robsta> thorwil: maybe it'd be possible thru a gtk module, need to learn about that
<thorwil> ok
<robsta> thorwil: well, it's most likely possible using hacks in the engine
<robsta> personally i think some subtle down-toned appearance might be worthwile
<robsta> thorwil: maybe only on "chrome" widgets like toolbar, scrollbar, statusbar and background, so things still look sane when putting two gedit windows next to each other
<thorwil> yes. it makes sense to spread the is or is not focused cue over a complete window including widgets. increasing transparency or reducing saturation of everything like it can be done with compiz is not that good an idea, as it includes content. i want text and images to keep their colors and contrast for practical reasons
<thorwil> coffee, bbl
<kwwii> luisbg: http://sinecera.de/ink.zip
 * _MMA_ grabs
<tretle> when does the artwork wiki get updated for jaunty?
<_MMA_> tretle: As far as art of just a place to put ideas?
<_MMA_> s/of/or
<tretle> _MMA_ as a place to put ideas
<tretle> was thinking of putting up a modded version of oransun as a possible change for jaunty'd default light theme
<tretle> jaunty'd = jaunty's
<_MMA_> tretle: Anyone can set up the wiki as long as it's in line with the normal setup.
<tretle> so what happens to the current intrepid one?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-10
<tretle> hmmmmm...... how do you change the colour themes of the themes which have them greyed out?
<tretle> anyone know where I can get a borderless glossy gtk border?
<tretle> if that makes sense to anyone
<robsta> hi
<robsta> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi robsta
<robsta> thorwil: maybe some day there will be an inkscape-based svg rendering library ...
<thorwil> odd there isn't already
<robsta> they got cairo support not too long ago
<thorwil> if you though you knew all there was to drawing perspectives, check http://www.termespheres.com/perspective.html :)
<robsta> thorwil: should not be too hard turning their "inkview" program into a library though :)
<dilomo> hi
<dilomo> what do you think of the new top notebook (lower left):
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1228925308.png
<dilomo> I can't make the top part look 3D enough without using shadows on the sides of the active tab which I don't want to use because my light direction comes from the top
<dilomo> Any ideas how can I do it
<thorwil> dilomo: hi! do you know what ambient occlusion is?
<dilomo> yes, at least I think I know
<dilomo> thi is when light bounces between objects
<thorwil> dilomo: in short, if you assume a slightly more complex lighting situation, subtle shadows on the sides are ok
<dilomo> hmm ok I will try it out
<thorwil> this picture shows quite nicely what ambient occlusion does: http://www.antropus.com/private/custom_portfolio/characters/oldlady/ambient001.jpg
<thorwil> note the shadows in the corners. that's what you want to have a little bit of
<dilomo> yeah I got the idea. Nice grandmom btw ;)
<dilomo> thorwil: do you think that the AO should affect the whole tab (should the tab drop shadow on the area above the inactive tabs and should this shadow be darker)?
<thorwil> dilomo: try it. there's realism and then there's whatever looks good :)
<dilomo> ok :) here's the shadow casted on the inactive tbas only:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1228927204.png
<dilomo> the other is comin in several minutes
<thorwil> dilomo: it's nicely subtle on the top tabs, but too stretched out on sideway tabs
<dilomo> the sideways are still from the old version
<dilomo> don't look at them yet
 * thorwil was looking at the entirely wrong thing
<dilomo> hers the version with more depth as suggested but it won't happen because when it is the last tab the shadow dropped is irregular:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1228927695.png
<thorwil> good morning nand! how's things?
<nand> good evening! well, so far so good
<nand> lots of interesting stuff
<nand> did you see summit.ubuntu.com ?
<thorwil> nand: only on monday
<thorwil> after some very low volume audio streaming, i decided to wait for videos :)
 * dilomo going to take a shower
<knome> hello MadsRH
<MadsRH> hi knome :-)
<dilomo> thorwil: here's update:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1228940881.png
<dilomo> Do you think that the top line should be darker? I made it to make the inactive tabs more contrasting to the content and with ethced in effect
<thorwil> dilomo: you mean the top line of inactive tabs? no, looks fine tome
<dilomo> no the line underneath
<dilomo> you can see its darker then the rest of the "walls"
<thorwil> dilomo: hmm, if i concentarte on it, it seems to work against the 3d effect. it kinda drags the page down
<dilomo> I think this too
<dilomo> but helps to consolidate the inactive tabs with the content
<dilomo> I will try different options
<dilomo> btw i have to run bye
<thorwil> cya
<IkimashoZ> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/16375/
<IkimashoZ> (see comments)
<IkimashoZ> I'm also interested in helping more generally speaking.  I like making icons.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-11
<IkimashoZ> hello, catfood
<IkimashoZ> anyone awake here?
<IkimashoZ> ...
<hellocatfood> Ello
<hellocatfood> Only barely awake
<IkimashoZ> hi
<IkimashoZ> I want to get involved
<IkimashoZ> making icons
<IkimashoZ> and other random artwork
<IkimashoZ> not so much windows or themes
<IkimashoZ> who should I talk to?
<hellocatfood> Not sure
<hellocatfood> Probably ask on the mailing list
<hellocatfood> I'm new here myself
<IkimashoZ> anyone here alive yet?
<knome> note really. we're all still dead.
<knome> or not born yet.
<IkimashoZ> darn
<IkimashoZ> I want to get involved with graphics
<IkimashoZ> how do I start?
<knome> IkimashoZ, i think the easiest way is to ask and wait.....
<knome> IkimashoZ, we're having uds at the moment and i think that next week we'll have quite a lot of things to do for artists also.
<IkimashoZ> ic
<IkimashoZ> I've been reading things online about how there was supposed to be a completely new theme for 8.10, but it didn't materialize.  Is that going to be a priority for 9.04?
<knome> are you talking about ubuntu, xubuntu or some other flavor?
<IkimashoZ> not really sure
<IkimashoZ> like I said, random internet mumblings
<IkimashoZ> blogs and such
<IkimashoZ> probably just rumors
<knome> might be.
<thorwil> hi!
<robsta> hello
<robsta> what's new, thorwil
<thorwil> robsta: not much. a bit of work on 2 other projects
<thorwil> here's hope for the weekend :)
<thorwil> robsta: progress on your side?
<robsta> thorwil: have been working on css representation of gtk style properties (like "GtkButton::default_border = { 0, 0, 0, 0 }")
<robsta> should be finished soon
<robsta> thorwil: looks like desktop-wide css use is finally within reach
<thorwil> cool
<dilomo> hi all
<dilomo> thorwil: here's the final version of the top tabs:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229012622.png
<dilomo> what do you think?
<robsta> dilomo: you got it working, kudos
<dilomo> :) thanks
<dilomo> robsta: btw what's up with the css engine?
<robsta> dilomo: lots and lots of legwork, just finishing up setting gtk style properties from css
<dilomo> any new themes?
<robsta> dilomo: no, but porting pixmap themes should be easy :P
<dilomo> :) probably if you understand css
<dilomo> I don't but if somebody wishes he can tranlate my theme into css
 * thorwil looks
<thorwil> dilomo: what are the changes i'm looking for? you made the top border of the page a little bit brighter?
<dilomo> yes and it is not pushing down the top part
<dilomo> I think I'm ready to go and do the resto of the tab positions (left, right and bottom)
<dilomo> thorwil: btw I changed the combo entry a bit. How do you feel it?
<thorwil> dilomo: looks almost as if the surface is slightly angled, downwards
<thorwil> dilomo: likely because it doesn't have the bottom shadow like the command button
<thorwil> dilomo: you could try to make it appear to sit a little bit deeper than regular buttons. with a subtle shadow on top and right side and less bright highlights. o highlights moved in 1px
<dilomo> thorwil: yes but in the old version there was a heavy shadow under the button part that was not looking so good. Here's a preview:
<dilomo> http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=87134&file1=87134-1.jpg&file2=87134-2.jpg&file3=87134-3.jpg&name=New+Wave
<dilomo> thorwil: I will try this highlight movement but I think that on one level with the surface it is ok
<thorwil> dilomo: i anticipated that problem, entry and button falling apart. that's why i suggested to "lower" it. although it does not look bad in the old version
<thorwil> MetalMusicAddict: have you been started with -v?
<dilomo> I have to run
<dilomo> bb
<_MMA_> thorwil: No I haven't. Does it matter?
<_MMA_> And just a note, when my nick is MetalMusicAddict, I'm disconnected.
<thorwil> aha
<_MMA_> I started usin' bip (http://bip.t1r.net/) with Pidgin.
<_MMA_> I just gotta figure out how to keep logging synced with multiple Pidgins.
<_MMA_> (different machines)
<thorwil> interesting. luckily i feel irc is distraction enough without worrying to log everything :)
<_MMA_> Well I need the looging for searching for info in old meetings and such.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-13
<thorwil> 8-]  http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uykUGdiPttw/R-UfRvUSVZI/AAAAAAAAAMA/fj4V4rJSeWU/s1600-h/fluffy+bunny.png
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-14
<SealV> hello
<_MMA_> SealV: If you're lookin' for a general chat, it ain't gonna happen now. If you have a question, it's best to just ask.
<SealV> ah.. okay then : I have been trying to figure out this workflow thingie, except its not working for me
<SealV> it goes to processing the intruction layer, and then nothing
<_MMA_> Are you talking about the Breathe icon set?
<SealV> specifically the workflow they are using
<_MMA_> I need more info to know what you problem is.
<_MMA_> What *exactly* are you doing?
<SealV> k, I downloaded the svg template, and the render_bitmap.py from the trunk of Breathe Icon set
<SealV> I imported my own artwork and centered it in layer above Plate.
<SealV> no when I run ./render_bitmap.py:
<SealV> *now
<_MMA_> render_bitmap.py works on the set specifically. You have to have the same dir structure.
<_MMA_> Did you grab trunk entirely?
<SealV> Yup I set that up, even got it to chop up computer.svg into pngs
<SealV> yes
<SealV> hmm.. when I edit computer.svg(from trunk) with my own artwork, and resave it: it works
<_MMA_> Then you don't have some structure tight in your template.
<_MMA_> *right
<_MMA_> You're puttin' something in the wrong spot.
<_MMA_> Or... You havent edited the metadata correctly.
<_MMA_> The layer the art goes on has to be named correctly.
<djolefol> I have not managed to use the files at DIYMarketing to print cd covers. They seem to be uncompatible ï»¿with Hardy's Inkscape and Scribus. Any suggestions?
<_MMA_> SealV: Looking at the wiki, template and or completed files should show you how the convention works.
<_MMA_> djolefol: Link to the covers?
<SealV> the metadata might be the prob thanks _MMA_
<djolefol> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing under 8.10, Desktop, wallet, eps and pdf.
<_MMA_> SealV: np
<_MMA_> djolefol: So what exactly is your issue? What does or doesnt happen?
<djolefol> I just have not managed to import the eps or pdf files for the cd wallet to Inscape and to Scribus to print them to A4 or A3 paper. Scribus gives error signal 11.
<_MMA_> Both PDF and EPS imported fine. I'd look into the "Recommended" packages for both apps. Maybe you're missing a filter.
<djolefol> Ok, thanks. I'll check that.
<SealV> yay. it worked check out my shiny new folders
<SealV> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/shiny.jpg
<djolefol> Ok, all recommended packages for Inkscape and Scribus are now installed in my Hardy. The wallet pdf does not import to scribus: Not in a recognised format. The second eps ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ubuntu_wallet_810_part2.eps ) file is not imported to Scribus correctly (only three greyish titles and one dark bar...). The part1.eps seems not to be imported to Scribus at all - Scribus 
<djolefol> ï»¿MetalMusicAddict: The wallet pdf imports to Inkscape (as it did earlier also) but exporting to cairo-pdf leeds to some strange horizontal lines all over the image, which can be seen by zooming a bit in evince. I have not printer here to test it on paper. I would say the color glides get corrupted. When saved to eps, the resulting file seems fine at Nautilus, but cannot be imported to Scribus (my intention was to only save th
<djolefol> I mean do somebody have any hints how to produce Intrepid cd cover art easily? :)
<djolefol> Probably the files just are incompatible with Hard
<djolefol> ...in Hardy, as they have been created by Adobes software: 'Ubuntu 8.10 Desktop Edition CD wallet artwork' at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing#8.10%20artwork. Going to sleep soon, but thanks for your attention.
<thorwil> http://www.logodesignlove.com/obama-08-logo-design-options
<_MMA_> nice
<lianimator> what program was used to make the default Ibex wallpaper?
<_MMA_> lianimator: Mostly GIMP I believe.
<lianimator> there is so much detail :)
<lianimator> I wonder how it was made
<_MMA_> What do you mean?
<_MMA_> The default is an evolution. Originally its made up of other photos. Made into a shape of an ibex.
<lianimator> the texture.. looks very detailed
<luisbg> _MMA_, no inkscape involved?
<luisbg> kwwii, how was your trip back?
<kwwii> luisbg: horrible!
<kwwii> luisbg: after a few hours we had to turn back to sanfransisco
<_MMA_> luisbg: I don't think so. Its just a big image. Easy to get detail.
<luisbg> kwwii, we were close to that but didnt have to go back
<luisbg> a girl seating close to me had very bad stomach ache since the moment we entered the plane
<kwwii> luisbg: we spent an hour flying in circles so that we could dump enough fuel to land again
<luisbg> when she was feeling better 4 hours into the flight
<kwwii> ouch
<luisbg> somebody of the crew talked to her and said "good, I was worried we had to turn back to chicago"
<luisbg> :S
<luisbg> this was the chicago - dublin flight
<kwwii> luisbg: did you fly directly to dublin or over london or so?
<luisbg> sfo - chicago - dublin
<kwwii> ahh, lay-overs are great :-)
<luisbg> mine was fine
<luisbg> the girl sitting besides me in the first flight was a googler
<luisbg> she noticed my laptop sticker and asked me if I was, so we started talking
<kwwii> hehe, and I sat next to a guy who works for mozilla
<luisbg> she also was flying to dublin, so we eat together in the lay over
<luisbg> the weird part is she worked for Sun 8 years ago
<kwwii> should have asked her to have sex in the bathroom :p
<luisbg> very coincidental
<luisbg> LOL
<_MMA_> hehe
<_MMA_> (|)
<luisbg> _MMA_ always appears when somebody mentions inflight sex
<luisbg> kwwii, did you knew the mozilla guy?
<kwwii> luisbg: nope, he was some QA person...nothing to do with ubuntu but he knew all about it
<kwwii> he thought that hardy heron was the current release though
<SealV> bah humbug dell needs to offer an upgrade to ibex for its netbook
<kwwii> SealV: how is that an artwork issue
<kwwii> but I do agree :-)
<SealV> wrong tab, my apologies
<luisbg> :)
<SealV> artwork wise: thanks to MMA I figured out the workflow
<lianimator> everyone here uses gimp. yes??
<lianimator> and inkscape.
<SealV> inkscape yes, gimp:most of the time
<lianimator> how about a tablet? I plan to get one soon
<lianimator> I wonder how well it works with gimp.
<gaminggeek> lianimator: yes a tablet is a good idea
<gaminggeek> works alright in gimp
<SealV> gimp has descent support for pressure and so on
<_MMA_> Wacoms work great with GIMP and Hardy. Intrepid no.
<gaminggeek> although to get the most out of it you still have to poke about with your xconfig
<gaminggeek> _MMA_: it will work in Intrepid :D
<SealV> actually that tablet thing was gonna be discussed at the devel
<_MMA_> gaminggeek: As a mouse sure. Unless there's been a new development in the last week.
<gaminggeek> _MMA_: you just need to change some configs :)
<lianimator> _MMA_: what's wrong with intrepid + gimp?
<gaminggeek> lianimator: nothing
<_MMA_> Links are good. Otherwise the changes to HAL have stopped them from working correctly.
<lianimator> would I need to add some config to xorg.conf?
<gaminggeek> the change is in the way ubuntu handles the tablets
<lianimator> I couldn't, could it?
<gaminggeek> _MMA_: just move out the files :)
<_MMA_> "Links are good."
<gaminggeek> sudo mv /etc/udev/rules.d/50-xserver-xorg-input-wacom.rules /etc/udev/rules.d/50-xserver-xorg-input-wacom.rules.foo
<gaminggeek> that will make it stop autodetecting
<lianimator> I'll get a wacom anyway, *then* I'll worry about the configs.
<SealV> I cant find the link to the developers conference
 * _MMA_ tries on Intrepid box. Though, this is a band-aid and I wouldn't recommend wide-spread use as most users would remember they did this later.
<gaminggeek> I just leave it auto detecting because I only really NEED the stylus anyway
<gaminggeek> pressure works too
<gaminggeek> in intrepid with out config changes
<_MMA_> gaminggeek: So you say *stock*, pressure works in Intrepid?
<gaminggeek> indeed
<_MMA_> You're an odd case then. As it's broken for most.
<gaminggeek> it used to be back in the beta
<gaminggeek> they fixed it though
<lianimator> does tilt work?
<gaminggeek> you need to enable pressure in gimp though
<kwwii> jaunty will have a UI for wacom tablets :-)
<gaminggeek> tilt doesnt work out of the box
<gaminggeek> \o/
<kwwii> there was a session at UDS on it
<_MMA_> nice
<gaminggeek> its about time they do something about the tablet problem :)
<kwwii> I drove the author to the airport, promising again and again to help test it
<SealV> kwwii: and for tabletpc's too right?
<_MMA_> gaminggeek: Because we all pay so much for this stuff. ;)
<kwwii> SealV: yes
<gaminggeek> yea :)
<luisbg> kwwii, nice! I didnt knew that
<luisbg> maybe its time soon to get a tablet
<gaminggeek> well we do help out in the community :)
<kwwii> I was amazed when he started his talk..I had no idea
<gaminggeek> kwwii was it recorded?
<kwwii> there must be video online somwhere about it
<kwwii> gaminggeek: yes
<SealV> its the one area I like opensuse
<gaminggeek> got a link or do I have to google ;)
<luisbg> gaminggeek, there will be a video but tony has _a lot_ of work to do with those
<kwwii> suse always did a good job with wacom tablets...when I worked there I would always bring markus schaefer my tablets shortly before release and say "make them work"
<gaminggeek> so its not up yet?
<SealV> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid
<_MMA_> gaminggeek: "We"? How do you help the community? (honest question)
<gaminggeek> _MMA_: I help out on IRC when I can :)
<gaminggeek> that is something atleast :)
<gaminggeek> and submitted a few bug reports :)
<lianimator> gaminggeek: that's the spirit!
<kwwii> god, I just watched my interview on youtube...was I smoking crack?
<SealV> link?
<_MMA_> I'm sorry. It's just rubs me wrong when people say things like "its about time" (and the like) when I have never heard of someone and in the grand scheme of things, seems has done very little to help a particular area. I'll hush about it now.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Like you weren't? :P
<kwwii> :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Anything else interesting happen?
<_MMA_> Replacement for Usplash maybe? :P
 * luisbg will be silent about the smoking crack comment
<luisbg> kwwii, almost all interviews where with tony standing up... looks weird to watch people on video looking up all the time
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, we will have a PPA with the -29 kernel and the plymouth splash stuff (which will only work on intel cards with that kernel)
<kwwii> hopefully enough cards/drivers will support kms to have it default in +1
<_MMA_> Oh. Kinda a bummer.
<_MMA_> Ill test on the lappy when I can.
<kwwii> if you get the current stuff it apparently only works on 4 ati radeon cards
<_MMA_> ATI? Gross. :P
<kwwii> open source
<SealV> wow. kde 4.2 is pretty
<thorwil> "the Ibex and the heron weren't bad but if they come up with a deformed rabbit as a background this time I'll puke"
<SealV> I was thinking something like a sticker, with a rabbit stikcer on a wood background and antlers taped on
<SealV> this is what I meant: link coming up
<SealV> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/Screenshot.jpg
<SealV> lol I will post the svg if anyone wants it
<_MMA_> Fun
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-07
<darkmatter> oooo...  gnome-icon-theme from git is candy!
<darkmatter> mac_v: http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/244/screenshothk.png :o
<thorwil> kwwii: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Wissenschaftler-Pop-up-Benachrichtigungen-verlangsamen-den-Arbeitsfluss-878671.html
<kwwii> thorwil: lol
<thorwil> kwwii: so now you're slowed down
 * ckontros waves
 * thorwil rotates
<ckontros> "layer groups". Welcome to, IDK, 2000? http://www.gimpusers.com/tutorials/gimp-2-8-new-features.html In any case this is cool. Though the "single-window" mode doesn't save my open dialogs/toolboxes. :(
<darkmatter> thats what happens when you run an unstable gimp
<ckontros> darkmatter: Well duh. :) Everything else works 'cept that so far.
<darkmatter> cool
 * darkmatter built gnome-icon-theme from git and then manually updated the 'yet to be official' bits (well, still updating them actually) from /plain/gnome. the theme is going to be nice
<darkmatter> ckontros: http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/244/screenshothk.png  http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7951/screenshotvj.png
<ckontros> I did see. I'm not really jazzed about it. I'm so over the Tango/GNOME sets.
<darkmatter> it's not an issue of the tango style. it's an issue of consistent style imo. tango/gnome never really had that before. still has a long way to go (most of the theme is still 'old' style), but at least its losing the fugly
<ckontros> I was actually impressed with KDE in Kubuntu-Lucid as f late. Though I think they have a default layout that could use some trimming (lots of tray applets running which reminded me of XP from DELL) it had a nice feel.
<darkmatter> I also have the latest 4.3.x dev build. its getting nice. oxygen has a ton of polish now (it's actually kinda metallic now) and the animations and plasma themes are greatly improved
<darkmatter> kickoff still sucks, but at least it slides up from the panel for some nice prettyness
<darkmatter> and plasma-desktop is less crashy :P
<snubby> sup noble artworkers
<ckontros> darkmatter: IIRC there's more code to make GTK apps look native.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-08
<Equiet> Hi, I made Software Center UI redesign. Could you please have a look? Main screen: http://i47.tinypic.com/2q1aseg.jpg Selected department screen: http://i50.tinypic.com/sd1p40.jpg
<javier_> hi
<javier_> de que se trata este lugar?
<thorwil> Equiet: i guess you should add them to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter/Comments
<Equiet> thorwil: I will, but I want know your opinion first.
<thorwil> Equiet: tabs are a good idea. i brought them up myself, but got to know that the folks at Canonical alread have wireframes including that and a number of other ideas i brought up
<mac_v_> Equiet: nice...  a few points though.. they want the free section to use a blue background[not sure why the hell it is so]  so you need to factor that too
<thorwil> Equiet: search outside the notebook is not well placed, as it doesn't imply the actual scope of search
<thorwil> Equiet: i don't think there should be a sitiuation where you have both Install and Choose_add-ons as choices
<thorwil> Equiet: the Departments headline in the 2nd simply doesn't look clickable
<Equiet> thorwil: Hm, the searchbox - good point, but I don't know where else put that.
<thorwil> Equiet: the icons on the tabs are cute, but the labels partly on 2 lines is a problem
<thorwil> Equiet: you could extend the page to encase the search entry, looking like a 2nd active tab. though gtk doesn't allow that, currently, afaik
<Equiet> Very helpful. Thank you.
<thorwil> Equiet: np. you seem to have a pretty good feel for layout/spacing
<mac_v> Equiet: also the lower left pane s designed to be used for i believe "picks" or something of the sort
<mac_v> is*
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/33563/screenshot_004_yIfuUQ.png
<dashua> Testing new murrine options.  Not bad.
<kwwii> dashua: ooh, sweet
<kwwii> dashua: the insensitve buttons look nice
<kwwii> is this in the latest murrine svn?
<zniavre> ho dashua i did not understand wich options were added
<dashua> He added a bunch
<dashua> Check the NEWS entry
<dashua> kwwii, Yes.
<kwwii> 2s of looking at that screenshot and I realize I need it ;)
<dashua> When the blueprint launches for the new Metacity for Lucid, I'll start hacking a gtkrc
<dashua> I'm actually on Lucid now.  Took a chance.  It will break soon enough.
<dashua> I need to kill this DEBUG on notify-osd.
<zniavre> dashua,  are you on rev174 ? i saw nothing helping me into news file
<dashua> He merged all the testing branches into master.
<dashua> I pulled the dec09 branch last night.
<dashua> brb, dinner
<zniavre> i must be dumb tonight i understand nothing ...
<dashua> zniavre, http://paste.ubuntu.com/337573/
<zniavre> dashua,  thank you
<zniavre> where did you find this?
<dashua> NEWS file
<zniavre> mine does not display this ...
<kwwii> boah, reading up on these changes...it is like christmas already
<kwwii> very nice
<zniavre> i got the good one ? from svn ? rev 174
<kwwii> the widget outline color option and the gradient color options alone are killer
<zniavre> kwwii,  yes that s true
<kwwii> this is great news, it will make things much easier
<dashua> zniavre, git clone git://git.gnome.org/murrine
<dashua> No longer subversion
<zniavre> haaaaaaaaaaaa !
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> sorry
<zniavre> compiling same way than before ?
<dashua> Yep
<zniavre> haha   big thank you
<dashua> Just add your new style options
<zniavre> i understand now
<dashua> Np
<zniavre> 15mo to install git-core :o(
<ckontros> Man. Channel's a little empty tonight (or insert time-of-day).
<dashua> ckontros, Sup mang?
<ckontros> nada
<ckontros> Sulking from your resignation. :(
<dashua> ckontros, =/
<dashua> I should be in my new home by the end of the month and I am feeling motivated again :)
<dashua> I haven't done anything for quite some time on any front
<ckontros> dashua: If you feel like working some magic on a new Studio GTK theme it would be most welcome. The above screenshot looked nice.
<dashua> I have a few themes in the pipe, but was just messing with the new options
<dashua> Ok cool.
<ckontros> dashua: Just let me know (here or email) when we can set aside a day (on the weekend) to hack. I bet we could pull something together in a day.
<dashua> I'll clean this one up and we can start from here.
<dashua> I think all selected colors should work
<ckontros> K. Just lemmie know. :) For now, I gotta rip this new Harry Potter DVD, shower, eat and do some general "after work" stuff.
<dashua> Alright, have fun :)
<zniavre> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Murrine+Engine+%28Ubuntu+Packages%29?content=99516&PHPSESSID=7eb3fb6207a1a44805730755816e8942 > did you see any murrine worries dashua ?
 * kwwii heads off to bed
<kwwii> night all
<zniavre> bonne nuit
<kwwii> bis morgen ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-09
<zniavre> i really like the nex expander of murrine git
<zniavre> new*
<Equiet> mac_v, thorwil, all: New version at http://i47.tinypic.com/34hz79x.jpg and http://i50.tinypic.com/a3fo61.jpg . But I'm still not sure about that blue color.
<mac_v> Equiet: the second image shows less space being used for the actual content browsing  , but rather more space is used for the icons[categories] , which IMO , is a bit too much
<mac_v> Equiet: maybe the selected category could move up , as in it shows  "All departments > Sound & video"  and the sub-category displayed in the space of the categories
<Equiet> mac_v: Interesting idea.
<Equiet> But has every department subsestions?
<Equiet> *subsections
<mac_v> Equiet: that is the planned eventual scope
<mac_v> Equiet: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter/History , also has some mockups
<Equiet> http://i47.tinypic.com/282kr51.jpg , http://i50.tinypic.com/sd2tti.jpg
<mac_v> Equiet: is that a working mockup or... something that has been gimp'd ?
<mac_v> or photoshopped
<Equiet> mac_v: Fireworksed. :)
<mac_v> heh ;p
<Equiet> I tried a lot, but I haven't done nothing else than gradient in Gimp.
<Equiet> *anything
<DanRabbit1> Equiet: your Programming icon is black :p
<Equiet> I don't have Karmic yet, so I'm just copying from screenshots. :)
<DanRabbit1> Ah, you should just download the icons ;)
<Equiet> This weekend I am hopefully upgrading, so...
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-10
<Equiet_> Software Center History done. http://i49.tinypic.com/29zsifb.jpg
<tretle> any idea whether rgba is enabled globally by default in the alpha 1 build of lucid?
<tretle> kwwii - I assume that the plan is to rework the gtk theme with transparent fun if the rgba stuff works out?
<coz_> Equiet_,  is that a mock up or a new theme?
<kwwii> tretle: not sure how much of that will make it into lucid...depending on that, yes, we will include as much as possible
<thorwil> Equiet_: neat. i think i see varying slight color tints in the greys, though
<kwwii> tretle: the rgba stuff we have been working on allows a person to set an alpha value to whole classes of widgets
<tretle> Would it not also be a great boon for cimi's rgba transparent gtk work
<kwwii> so for instance, we can set all menu- and tool-bars in unfoused windows slightly slightly transparent
<kwwii> this allows us to enable transapency without touching apps ;)
<tretle> Cimi must be estatic :D
<tretle> Was a shame that the gtk guys had no interest in it
<thorwil> kwwii: there's already mechanism to thme widgets different depending on window focus?
<thorwil> theme, even
<tretle> great contribution from canonical in my view
<tretle> thorwil - rgba gtk transparency?
<thorwil> tretle: i mean in general
<tretle> I would assume that transparency would add variables to the equation the current system does not account for.
<tretle> out of curiosity was upstart still used along with xsplash for 9.10, hence the two different boot up themes?
<tretle> whoops
<tretle> usplash
<Equiet_> coz_: A mockup.
<coz_> Equiet_,   yeah I was just curious what was going on with the screenshot:)
<kwwii> thorwil: yes, with both rgba and the cs windeco code we will have it
<kwwii> and this is all in patches for gtk, so it will all go upstream
<Equiet_> thorwil: Yeah, there is a lot of color grey diferences. Mainly the zebra effects in events and months.
<Equiet_> If you mean this.
<thorwil> Equiet_: i mean yellowish, greenish and blueish tints in the greys. from experience i know that this can be misleading, as it is much about context
 * tretle thinks its kinda sad it took this long for global rgba support to make it into gtk but happy canonical pushed some progression on the subject :D
<thorwil> Equiet_: you could do without the rectangles around the numbers
<Equiet_> thorwil: Without them it looks quite unsorted with random brown rectangles. But with just one rectangle behind all numbers...
<thorwil> Equiet_: that's a matter of how you style the divisions
<Equiet_> thorwil: http://i48.tinypic.com/2qv8kk3.jpg , http://i48.tinypic.com/1zxdh2.jpg
<thorwil> Equiet_: starting from the first, try lines between the numbers, reachung up to the bars
<thorwil> Equiet_: then try to fade the lines out at top and bottom
<thorwil> Equiet_: also try white lines and adjust the background there
<tretle> actually I think the gtk box around the numbers 18-24 in november looks weird, unusual to see it rendered in that way rather than go with a standard highlight color
<Equiet_> thorwil: http://i46.tinypic.com/5eeirq.jpg
<thorwil> Equiet_: i think that works fine
<Equiet_> Looks like I will need serious auto upload tool for this.
<coz_> oo that last link isnt opening here
<coz_> there i is
<Equiet_> tretle: Please, explain a little bit more.
<thorwil> mac_v: stop trolling kerberos ;)
<mac_v> thorwil: had too much of him ;p
<mac_v> thorwil: is he a friend of yours ? [didnt mean to offend you ;) ]
<thorwil> mac_v: no. i have none ;p
<mac_v> lol
<thorwil> mac_v: he's right regarding the big picture, but totally blind to what has been going on. or he's actually having fun with the list, like you do ...
<mac_v> thorwil: hei!
<mac_v> thorwil: big picture everyone knows... but what to do/how to deal is the problem ;)
<thorwil> Equiet_: i think what tretle means is that you should try to indicate the selection with a filled rect like you see on item selection in nautilus
<thorwil> mac_v: make everyone do what i say would be one way. but i guess that's not popular :)
<thorwil> Equiet_: though i bet he didn't think of direct manipulation
<tretle> yeah thats what I meant
<thorwil> tretle: the intention might be to have a resize-able selection
<thorwil> and certainly one that can be dragged
<tretle> and I did think of direct manipulation, it made me wonder. If you directly manipulate it in such a way instead of using a fill color then why is there a scroll bar? Is that not added clutter?
<tretle> ah
<tretle> resizable
<tretle> did not think of that
<thorwil> tretle: scrolled view is larger than desired selection?
<mac_v> Equiet_: use png screenshots , the image would be better/clearer
<thorwil> worth a thought to not have a scroll/selection split
<tretle> and how does pitivi and jokosher handle the issue
<tretle> would it not be a wise idea using a similar system so that there is some consistancy
<thorwil> yes, for the 5 pitivi and/or jokosher users ;)
<tretle> Thats not fair on jokosher
<tretle> its fully featured
<tretle> and the ui is very well thought out
 * thorwil hugs ardour
<Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/ history-v5.png
<coz_> Equiet_,  I havent been paying close attention and I apoligize for that but.. are th blocks above the numbers  small progress bars?
<Equiet_> :/
<coz_> Equiet_,  sorry   as I said I havent been paying attention
<Equiet_> coz_: No, it's fine, but I am disappointed that it's not obvious (not your fault). It's means the activity/number of events for a certain day.
<Equiet_> *It
<thorwil> Equiet_: there's always someone to whom it is not obvious ... ;)
<coz_> Equiet_,  ok... mm...that wasnt apparent  to me
<coz_> well one of the issues with any gui is ,,,does it speak well to the average user?
<coz_> it should also have advanced features but any gui  that is not clearly understaood by average users  should maube be thought about/
<coz_> ?
<thorwil> sadly we have no average user clones at our disposal
<Equiet_> I have 1 Mac user online. :P :)
<coz_> thorwil,  well you can show an image to anyone on most channels to see if it is clear to them :)
<coz_> and I am can generally look with eyes of average user since most of my clients dont know anything about any system or application and they can get confused  or ignor what is not understood
<coz_> ignore
<coz_> I didnt mean to sound too blunt about this
<thorwil> *ocean of doubt*
<coz_> thorwil, well that one went over my head :) or between my legs not sure which :)
<Equiet_> The Mac user anwers... And doesn't know what the brown rectangles are.
<coz_> Equiet_,  this is from someone that looked at it?
<Equiet_> coz_: Yes.
<coz_> Equiet_,   well that kind of makes sense no?
<thorwil> Equiet_: but he knows about the basic concept of the software center?
<Equiet_> thorwil: He knows it's about installing apps, that's all.
<coz_> there you go
<thorwil> Equiet_: anyway, should days without even appear in the list?
<thorwil> events, i mean
<Equiet_> thorwil: Yes, I think. Without them users wouldn't even understand what the numbers are.
<thorwil> Equiet_: with context like Histors ad November?
<thorwil> Equiet_: you could make empty days smaller
<thorwil> and unselectable
<mac_v> mat_t: aw... :(   get well soon :)
<Equiet_> thorwil: Empty days smaller - OK. But unselectable, it's quite too complicated, isn't it?
<coz_> Equiet_,  is it possible to have the days with no events colapsed  with an arrow to expand it if someone wants to see all of the days?  or maybe each month expandable?
<Equiet_> Well, coz_...
<Equiet_> This is thing I thought about a lot.
<coz_> Equiet_, ` to have it exapandable  you mean?
<coz_> Equiet_,  or what you have on that image?
<Equiet_> And after user stories I have read, all of them wants to step back only about 1 week ago.
<coz_> ah
<thorwil> Equiet_: it's questionable if there's a need to select a range of days, even
<Equiet_> (Sorry, I write slow, especially in English.)
<coz_> Equiet_,  your english is fine :)
<Equiet_> thorwil: The range of days could be generated by number of events. There are users, that connect to the Internet once a month so they have just 1 day full of events.
<Equiet_> So for them the range could be a month.
<tretle> ardour is a different beast to jokosher, jokosher is the sound editor for bands and aurdour is for engineers
<tretle> sound engineers
<thorwil> tretle: no way, there are enough musicians using ardour
<coz_> Equiet_,  I can say I prefer the layout of this very much compared to what is default right now:)
<mac_v> coz_: good luck convincing mpt ;p
<coz_> I dont do  any music composing on linux at all
<coz_> mac_v,  oh?
<mac_v> coz_: to change the software center layout ;)
<thorwil> mac_v: when i talked with him, it seemed well to be within the realm of the possibl
<coz_> mac_v,  oh !! mmm  well that's not surprising :)   although this layout is far less confusing than the default one
<thorwil> Equiet_: maybe dates shouldn't be primary, but secondary. so you would have a list of events and at the side associate those to time ranges
<mac_v> thorwil: yup , maybe  , i showed him Equiet_'s earlier layouts too... not sure he is very convinced though
<mac_v> i'v*
<coz_> that's a shame ..this layout is far more visually appropriat for gnome and most other applicatoin layouts
<coz_> the default one is a bit "foreign"  overall in camparison
<mac_v> actually , if we polish this very well and check there isnt any loop hole  , we've missed there might be a chance
<coz_> that would be cool :)
<coz_> Equiet_,  is the horizontal layout of history the only one you have attemtped?
 * coz_ is fond of vertical ..list driven stuff :)
<Equiet_> We can still do it simplier, just to replace the numbers with the name of the month and make selectable only whole moths. Result will be just a long list of events for advanced users and a short one for less advanced.
<coz_> Equiet_, that sounds cool
<mac_v> Equiet_: it would be bad , to just group everything from a month together
<thorwil> i imagine a vertical list of events, with headlines for the month, but days running on one side
<coz_> I lke that visual :)
 * mac_v is probably blind , doesnt see what coz_ just saw :(
<coz_> :)
 * thorwil injects a does of alice in wonderland into mac_v's brain
<coz_> mac_v,  sound to me like a typical applicatoins menu
<coz_> mac_v,  vertical orientationi... list with the days as the active part   applications/accessories/ active stuff   but thats only what I saw :)
<coz_> orientation  sorry for that italian "i" at the end
<coz_> orientation rather
<mac_v> hmm , maybe it would be too much info  , we need to keep it simple
<coz_> vertial list with months  dialog opens for days?
<mac_v> "applications/accessories/ active stuff" mentioning the categories next to the days
<Equiet_> And what about doing it like http://i50.tinypic.com/sd2tti.jpg ? In the upper rectangle (where is All Departments and Sound & Video) would be months and instead of subsections would be days.
<coz_> mmm
<coz_> that sounds cool too
<mac_v> Equiet_: there needs to be a '>' between all departments and S&V  "All dep.. > S&V"
<mat_t> thx mac_v :)
<mac_v> :)
<mac_v> Equiet_: also regarding the history , it needs to be searchable...
<Equiet_> mac_v: In the departments I didn't find place where to put ">".
<Equiet_> And in history where to put search box.
<mac_v> Equiet_: without atleast a '>' it wont be clear it is a submenu
<mac_v> Equiet_: search is something that is stressed upon a lot , and needs to be prominent and consistently accessible in all the view , ie it needs to be a given a constant location
<mac_v> Equiet_: in any view/tab the user changes to , the user has to be able to search
<Equiet_> mac_v: If we will do the history that like subsections, there would be place for the search box.
<mac_v> Equiet_: if the search box is to be in the subsections in other views , then you need to figure out how to get it in history too ,  else search needs a new place... [AFAIK , all the recent development is going towards keywords , categories and making apps easier to find]
<Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/
<Equiet_> :)
<mac_v> nice :)
<mac_v> Equiet_: why dont you move the search box to the space next to history in the top level?  the inprogress section is very rarely seen and the history , i believe is not displayed by default , so it shouldnt be cramped
<mac_v> shouldnt be cramped in the top level*
<Equiet_> mac_v: It used to be there, but for a reason I do not remember it has moved to the actual position.
<mac_v> Equiet_: if its there , then you shouldnt have problem for history too
<mac_v> Equiet_: BTW , for home section where is the search box?
<Equiet_> <thorwil> Equiet: search outside the notebook is not well placed, as it doesn't imply the actual scope of search
<Equiet_> mac_v: There is not, too.
<Equiet_> Ok, I will move it back.
<mac_v> Equiet_: that location for search wont go too far :)
<Equiet_> Brb.
<Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-11
<darkmatter> mac_v: check out the new glyphs in g-i-t http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3448/screenshotlh.png  :O
<mac_v> darkmatter: hehe... i know , i was the initial one who suggested they add the dots to the '<' '>' ;p
<darkmatter> :P
<mac_v> darkmatter: without the dots they worked well on chrome , but the dropdown arrows were the problem
<darkmatter> I really am enjoying seeing a shift to actual glyphs none the less
<mac_v> darkmatter: those icons might go back to just the < >  , if we can convince the nautilus devs to do away with the drop-down arrows
<darkmatter> plus the general shift in g-i-t to use silver as a base <3
<darkmatter> mac_v: yeah. the dropdowns are fat
<darkmatter> mac_v: convince them to do a single navigational dropdown like FF, since the dropdown is basically just a recent history marker anyway
<mac_v> darkmatter: the drop down is of no use , we could just show the history on right-click similar to how chrome does it
<mac_v> anyway , even firefox is doing away with the drop-down arrows
<darkmatter> mac_v: aye, but right-click lacks discoverability. the idea is to make interface bits simpler and discoverable. so if you do away with the marker, then do away with the menu
<mac_v> darkmatter: but the real question is? how often do you really use the history for the nautilus window?  is it worth the visual noise
<mac_v> darkmatter: also , if the history for the web browsers are going to behave the same way , it becomes easy to discover too
<darkmatter> mac_v: thats another issue. technically that menu isn't used often even in browsers, so its a waste of code
<darkmatter> mac_v: plus, consistency. right click is traditionally preferences/config on toolbars, context elsewhere. keep its usage consistent
<mac_v> darkmatter: yeah , currently there is a discussion about redoing the nautilus design ...
<darkmatter> mac_v: yeah, I saw garretts finderesque mockups :P
<mac_v> darkmatter: IMO , the search isnt really essential for a file browser.. that isnt the first thing you do.. it might even be the last thing you need
<darkmatter> mac_v: ANYTHING would be better than the current nautilus ui
<mac_v> i mean , isnt essential for so much prominence
<darkmatter> mac_v: yeah, but still useful. but it should really do live filtering (like the CC), and if it goes that route, one should really approach things from a collection/library concept.
<darkmatter> searching a directory is... odd.. searching document, pictures etc makes sense though
<darkmatter> if ya get what I'm saying
 * mac_v notices thorwil hasnt mentioned anything on the nautilus design wave ... wonders if he has something brewing up to surprise us :)
<thorwil> mac_v: with yesterdays state, i simply had nothing to add ... except that if basically the same design is used for file dialogs, some thought has to be spend on keyboard use
<thorwil> mac_v: longer term i want tags/categories instead of a hierarchical filesystem, one interface to manage all documents, messages, audio, video ...
<mac_v> thorwil: yeah , tags seem to be the way nowadays... but i'm just lazy to tag stuff... ;p
 * mac_v needs to be more organized
<thorwil> mac_v: versioning support build in, tracking of remote copies, file dependency tracking ...
<thorwil> mac_v: it just doesn't work out as long as you also have an hierarchical system and can't be sure you can transfer your tags if you move your library or just a part of it
<mac_v> thorwil: you need to mention this as Alex is rethinking the nautilus design , and this is a major change , appropriate for gnome-shell
<mac_v> on the ML*
<thorwil> mac_v: hmm, i worry it is too much at once and a feature list alone won't suffice, anyway
<mac_v> thorwil: gnome-shell really wants to do away with hierarchy , but they dont know how/what to replace it with... a mention will probably trigger a discussion and spark new thoughts
<mac_v> thorwil: you could blog your idea , and mention it... would probably be a nice step forward to do away with hierarchy...
<thorwil> mac_v: i might do that. but first i have a bathroom to clean :}
<mac_v> thorwil: i didnt have to hear/know that ;p
<mac_v> hehe
 * thorwil makes plan to inform mac_v of household chores more often
<Equiet> Is Ubuntu getting a new look in Lucid?
<thorwil> Equiet: answers to that question have been a bit inconsistent. if you add past experience, the answer must be: "definitively maybe"
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> no doubt
<kwwii> I heard that we might get a new window decoration, but I am not sure about that in the meantime
<kwwii> we'll have a new desktop bg naturally
<Equiet> In Software Center, will the Home tab (in my mocukps) stay there?
 * kwwii reboots, brb
<thorwil> kwwii: so i guess i should drop "Wallpaper submissions for this cycle will be removed from the wiki once spotted. To make it very clear that they will not be considered and to not encourage others to add theirs." from the wiki, then?
<thorwil> arg
<kwwii> thorwil: erm?
<thorwil> nm the arg
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I guess that we can remove that so that people can still work on them as a project there
 * thorwil edits
 * thorwil comments wiki edit: "Kenneth lacks killer-instinct, so I have to be nice and not auto-kick every wallpaper I see here :)"
<thorwil> mac_v: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/file-handling/
<thorwil> recently i was quite amazed about a few ancient attachments hanging around on random pages
<kwwii> lol
 * mac_v checks out thorwil's blog
<mac_v> kwwii: karmic koala== 9.10 ;p
<mac_v> " If you saw Ubuntu 9.04 (the karmic koala), "
<kwwii> oops
<kwwii> I stand corrected
<kwwii> thanks for pointing that out
<Equiet_> New mockup for History. http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/ history-v7.png
<Equiet_> November (selected) is showed all, previous month only 15 days. October is not visible, because nothing happened.
<Equiet_> When you click on September or on that arrow button, months move to the right and September will be selected and shown all.
<Equiet_> But for November, show all days or just until 24.11. (the today day)?
<Equiet_> And for previous month, show last 15 or every second day?
<Equiet_> s/showed/shown
<mac_v> Equiet_: hiding months , isnt good ;)  ... BTW , why have you designed history to be selected for 1week at a time? 1day selection would be more ideal
<Equiet_> mac_v: Only one day will be selected by default?
<mac_v> Equiet_: the list in the history you've used is a small one , but when user updates only once every week the list would be longer and ... if user has installed something else during the week , it would be lost in the bug list... user would want to select the day rather than the week
<Equiet_> Is Home tab necessary?
<Equiet_> mac_v: Ok, np.
<mac_v> yup
<mac_v> Equiet_: home is for the picks and stuff
<mac_v> Equiet_: also , for search ,IMO , the top level is more ideal , since... User can just search in the toolbar and just switch tabs home/installed/available to view the narrowed down search...
<mac_v> rather than having to search each time within the tabs
<Equiet_> When you click on the department in Home tab, what happens?
<mac_v> Equiet_: have you checked out the current software store?
<mac_v> Equiet_: another issue , is for the future there will be apps *sold* from there... so they want "get free software" and "buy software" sections
<Equiet_> mac_v: I thought, that it would be possible to select from what sources to search for the software in the main menu (_Sources).
<Equiet_> But, is that chart better than rectangles?
<mac_v> Equiet_: seems better.. but how is it without dots for the days where there isnt any history? having dots only for the days which had activity?
<Equiet_> Not sure what you mean, but check out my File sharing.
<Equiet_> mac_v: What about having only Get Software tab and inside page would be checkbox whether to display also paid software?
<mac_v> Equiet_: mpt was really picky about stressing "free" , since the user testing seemed to reveal that users didnt know that they could get software for free
<Equiet_> Ok, 2 tabs.
<Equiet_> But that makes no place for searchbox. I find it more intuitive to put it into the page.
<mac_v> Equiet_: check out how synaptic works for search... you can search and just switch sections
<mac_v> Equiet_: thats is how the software center also works
<mac_v> Equiet_: history tab will not be shown by default ...
<Equiet_> Ok, then... :/
<Equiet_> Why?
<mac_v> Equiet_: not really essential
<mac_v> also "in progress"  is only when something is in progress
<Equiet_> So I have to put another tab into already full tab list. Or will the Software Center be fullscreen?
<mac_v> Equiet_: i think this was why they wanted to use treeview ;)  ... nope it wont be fullscreen ,
<Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/history-v9.png
<mac_v> meh... i like the rectangles better... even fspot does the same
<Equiet_> mac_v: But users don't know what they means.
<Equiet_> *that
<mac_v> Equiet_: i would think it would make more sense than what Windows does , it simply makes the text bold in system restore... the problem , i believe , with your impromptu user test was the user wasnt actually using the app... if the user had selected the history , and was the shown the bars it would make more sense
<mac_v> Equiet_: how is a bar chart any different than a line chart... if user doesnt understand charts as a whole both are bound to fail... ;)
<Equiet_> Let f.e. thorwil decide. :)
<Equiet_> *+to
<thorwil> Equiet_: the line implies a continuity, a change over time. the bars are more appropiate
<Equiet_> Ok...
<thorwil> and the bars usefulness might very well be limited to showing where there any events at all. why would one care about the number?
<thorwil> they do look cool, of course, and one might argue they can add to user satisfaction because of that ;)
<Equiet_> Now I think about reworking the Get Free Software tab.
<Equiet_> I don't like the blue color there.
<mac_v> Equiet_: i liked the earlier version of the months , from history5 ,  the scroll/scrollbar was more stylised
<Equiet_> I don't understand, they are same...
<Equiet_> Any other ideas? I'm going to send a suggestion to SoftwareCenter/Comments.
<Equiet> Who is developing Human theme? Canonical or community?
<DanRabbit1> Equiet: Human theme isn't developed anymore
<DanRabbit1> Humanity (the new theme) is community maintained
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-12
<kwwii> night all
<Equiet> mac_v: You are Humanity Icons developer, right?
<DanRabbit1> Equiet: I work on Humanity icons as well. What's up?
<Equiet> DanRabbit1: Emblems are too away from folder icons. In Human icons I haven't noticed, because there were quite big border.
<DanRabbit1> Equiet: can I see a screenshot of what yours look like?
<Equiet> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/Obrazovka-1.png
<Equiet> Probably it should be like that, but I don't like it very much.
<mac_v> Equiet: yup , bug... we dont like it either ;) > Bug #455879
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455879 in humanity "Emblems position wish" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455879
<Equiet> Hm, it looks better in bottom. Brb.
<DanRabbit1> Equiet: Don't worry it's being fixed
<thorwil> mac_v: so my file handling blog post got 225 views, but it seems nobody wants to discuss it on the list
<mac_v> argh :/
<mac_v> thorwil: i believe it more due to the holiday season... Alex does another weird thing he usually replies in bulk after several days...
<mac_v> thorwil: well , i'll add it to the wave...
<DanRabbit1> thorwil: link?
<mac_v> DanRabbit1: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/file-handling/
<thorwil> mac_v: which wave?
<mac_v> thorwil: just added it to the nautilus wave
<thorwil> ah, should have another look at that one
<mac_v> mrmcq2u: SiDi is the one i was mentioning about notify-osd log ;)
<SiDi> sidi, where?
<SiDi> thorwil: whats your blog please?
<SiDi> ah, w/e its above :D
<SiDi> mac_v: hiya
<mac_v> SiDi: hey ;)  mrmcq2u was talking about doing a notification log applet for docky..
<SiDi> oh
<SiDi> i gave up on the idea actually
<SiDi> the first step would be to modify notify-osd's logs to make it possible to parse them (they lack some info at the moment)
<mac_v> SiDi: ah.. i thought you got it nearly fully  working
<SiDi> the best would be a d-bus service that shares the whole data
<SiDi> mac_v: yeah it was working but with a modified notify-osd branch
<mac_v> ;)
<SiDi> and i couldnt always access the image of a notification
<SiDi> only when it had been sent to notify-osd with filename and not with a pixbuf
<Equiet> DanRabbit1: Emblem doesn't have to be at the bottom. http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/Obrazovka-1.png
<darkmatter> hrmmm... the desktop applet wont right-stick on the panel http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4177952355/   :/
<darkmatter> anyone have 'any' clue as to how to get rid of the gap to the right of the glow?
<mac_v_> Equiet: the emblem ideas you showed above are not possible
<mac_v_> well the second one is possible , but the rest nope
<mac_v> has anyone installed Lucid?
<zniavre> on vbox only atm
<zniavre> x seems broken for some gfx driver as ati/nvidia
<mac_v> zniavre: ah... i forgot about vbox
<mac_v> i have ATI...
<zniavre> i have nvidia ...    ^^
<mac_v> zniavre: ah , well.. i'll install Lucid on another partition ... atleast someone's system has to break first to get ATI fixed ;p
<darkmatter> bleh.... gnomes down. I was going to grab some goodies from git :(
<mrmcq2u> mac-v -damn, the third icon/emblem position would have made previews much easier to implement :D Wondering whether icon designers would mind having to create icons in two parts, front and back
<mrmcq2u> mac-v - mac_v
<mac_v> mrmcq2u: you are tretle right? i'm trying to come up with a mockup for previews ;)
<mrmcq2u> yup
<mrmcq2u> cool, was looking at the thread hoping someone might contribute something other than a windows screenshot :D
<MurdersLastCrow> Ah, DanRabbit's here. From deviantART? What a coincidence.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-13
<zniavre> hello
<zniavre> do you know if is there a way to change the color of hover effect on expander and radiocheck ?
<zniavre> http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7863/screenshot3fl.png  this two widgets hover effects
<mac_v> zniavre: expander you can change color... i dont understand about radiocheck?
<zniavre> mac_v,  good afternoon
<zniavre> http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2061/screenshot3k.png  look like the hover effect is not nice
<zniavre> im wondering just now if it 's causes by rgba stuff
<mac_v> zniavre: hi... oh that one... yeah , i havent yet figured that one out :(
<mac_v> that isnt rbga... the rectangle highlight is seen even in karmic
<zniavre> expander seems to be customisable but i hav not find the way to change the background hovering
<zniavre> like radiocheck
<mac_v> zniavre: did you patch the tooltips personally or is it patched in lucid?
<zniavre> no it came with rgba module (from gnome-look.org)
<mac_v> ah... ok
<zniavre> im not in lucid yet
<mac_v> i'm gonna dive into lucid today.. that why i'v been rebooting and testing my boot speeds and gonna compare in lucid :D
<mac_v> thats*
<zniavre> ho mac_v is on the edge ...
<zniavre> i only tried it on vbox
<mac_v> yeah , i did that.. but vbox does something funny to the boot splash... in my vbox the boot splash flickers .. creped me out :/
<zniavre> that s true here too
<mac_v> so it was not just me :)
<zniavre> it worked just one time before the x breakage came
<mac_v> i thought my ATI was doing funny stuff ;)
<zniavre> alpha does funny stuff
<zniavre> :o)
<Equiet> mac_v: What ATI do you have?
<mac_v> Equiet: mobility radeon X1400
<mac_v> Equiet: just today , the fix for the emblems has been uploaded... you could try it out an see if it works...
<Equiet> (Where?)
<mac_v> Equiet: lp:humanity
<mac_v> Equiet: you are familiar with bzr and launchpad right?
<Equiet> Little bit.
<Equiet> Give me few minutes. :)
<mac_v> Equiet: no probs... ;) if you have any problems with the fix , kindly mention on the Bug #455879
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455879 in humanity "Emblems position wish" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455879
<Equiet> mac_v: Ok, working fine.
<mac_v> great ;)
<mac_v> Equiet: thanks :)
<Equiet> It's meant to be that for remote folders it is located in the top, right?
<mac_v> Equiet: its just the first emblem is on the bottom right , the next top right and so on...
<Equiet> I know that, but f.e. when I add emblem to icon of another computer in LAN, it is in top right first and bottom right second.
<mac_v> hmm , weird... anyways... brbr
<mac_v> brb*
<Equiet> mac_v: Do yout want a screenshot of that?
<mac_v> Equiet: sure , you can attach it to the bug report too... that would be better
<mac_v> bbiab
<Equiet> Bug #496197
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 496197 in humanity "Emblems' postition for network folders" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/496197
<mac_v> zniavre: found out what the flicker was due to.. KMS , if the system doesnt use KMS we get wonderful Christmas neon lights ;p
<AnAnt> Hello, why do icon themes provide both PNG & SVG formats of the icons ?
<mac_v> AnAnt: which theme are you asking about? or is this in general
<AnAnt> mac_v: general question
<mac_v> AnAnt: png files are small file sizes , and svg scales better , hence the small icons are done in png to save space and the icons which need to scale are in svg size
<mac_v> AnAnt: png icons dont scale properly
<mac_v> in svg format*
<Equiet> For editing icons, do you use Inkscape.
<AnAnt> Equiet: yup
<Equiet> *?
<mac_v> Equiet: yup , svg icons we use inkscape
<AnAnt> mac_v: so it has nothing to do with "caching, to save the time of rendering the icons" ?
<Equiet> Is in Inkscape something like list of all objects on the layer?
<mac_v> AnAnt: well , it probably was a problem earlier.. but not much now... i'm not very sure of that though
<mac_v> Equiet: didnt understand the question
<AnAnt> mac_v: thanks a lot
<mac_v> np
<Equiet> mac_v:
<Equiet> http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/april2009/articles/article4/images/fw_screenshot.jpg
<Equiet> On the right sidebar, thare are layers and for each layer is a list of objects in it.
<mac_v> Equiet: ctrl+shift+L , and you can see the layers
<Equiet> It means I have to make layers by myself. :(
<mac_v> Equiet: well of course.. ;)  or if the template has layers you can use them
<Equiet> Thanks, mac_v.
<mac_v> np
 * mac_v reminded of the saying "in the land of the blind , the one-eye man is the king " :D
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-13
<kwwii> lol, if someone sees troy tell him I am purposely avoiding him :P
<vish> thorwil: what is baer talking about now? "Alternate wallpapers" ? is that the one for the package? or for the default?
<thorwil> vish: "alternate" means not default
<thorwil> vish: aside of that, i'm not sure how he thinks this is supposed to work out
<vish> what does this mean? " It is important to remember this is a proposal which means this effort may or may not be endorsed by the Canonical Design Team."
 * vish starting to get really pissed!
<thorwil> vish: extra fun is that he asked for my advice about this a few days ago
<vish> if it is his personal agenda, it has no place in the team's project page
<thorwil> vish: to ignore it, as comes out now
<vish> thorwil: oh! he asked you to ignore it?
<thorwil> vish: no, he asked for advice and what he did now means he ignored my advice
<vish> :/
<vish> i'm just going to move the tasks out of the wiki
<vish> to his personal page..
<thorwil> vish: and what will you post to the list?
<vish> nothing..
<vish> this was the very reason automatic mailing to the list was not used..
<thorwil> vish: that's ugly
<vish> yea, well.. he asked you for advice.. not me.. ;)
<vish> that means i have no obligation to reply.. :)
<thorwil> vish: don't play hide and seek
<thorwil> vish: be open about your strong rejection, or ignore this
<vish> thorwil: oh, well.. ok.. I'll reply to the list as well.. can i mention that he has "not taken advice from other members either?"
<vish> i wont mention you by name..
<thorwil> vish: no
<vish> thorwil: hmm.. well, OK..  then atleast you'd need to reply yourself.. if you are making me reply ;p
<thorwil> vish: if confronted, i'm sure he would explain how he did take my advice into account
<thorwil> it doesn't really matter. all that matters is his proposal as such
<vish> meh.. K, i'v just renamed his specs page, i'll reply to the list in a bit..
<thorwil> vish: seems to me, the problem comes down to using specific flickr pools
<thorwil> vish: if submissions following this would go into *the* flickr pool, there would be nothing to worry about
<kwwii> I would think that simply making every submission come through the flickr pool keeps things simple and understandable
<thorwil> vish: now i did send a reply, also stating that you are so not amused that you moved the spec
<thorwil> vish: i'm sure everyone will be shocked and dismayed by this unprecedented level of aggression and wiki-mayhem from you!
<thorwil> ;)
<kwwii> hehe, is vish acting up?
<kwwii> "again?"
<thorwil> lol
<woutervddn> good morning every1..
<vish> thorwil: hey.. :)
<vish> oops, yea.. got busy.. writing the mail..
<coz_> good day all
<woutervddn> hi coz_
<coz_> woutervddn,  hey guy
<woutervddn> how R U?
<coz_> woutervddn,  I am well...good night sleep does the trick for me ...and of course a good cup of hot cocoa
<coz_> Weather for: Pittsburgh, PA Updated: Mon, 13 December 2010 11:53:00 GMT Conditions are: light snow Current temperature: 20Â°F/-7Â°C Humidity: 81% Wind: From the West-North-West â at 12 MPH Gusting to 21 MPH
<coz_> woutervddn,  how are you this afternoon ?
<woutervddn> ugh.. I have to study :(
<woutervddn> but you know how things go.. ooh facebook, ooh lets check my mails, ooh look a spot on the wall
<coz_> yeah
<coz_> woutervddn,  what type of work do you do  artisticlly I mean
<woutervddn> In general I try to set myself open as good as all types of graphical art..
<woutervddn> In the past that was mostly making templates for websites etc..
<woutervddn> but I'm trying new things now :)
<woutervddn> btw: anyone here that has an idea about why inkscape allways needs 2 full minutes to load :o
<coz_> woutervddn,  inkscape is generally always slow
<coz_> to load
<woutervddn> ow.. that makes sense :p
<coz_> woutervddn,  I dont have the code details as to why
<coz_> woutervddn,  its definitly a frequently asked question though
<woutervddn> I thought it was my setup.. (which would be strange since I'm using the ubuntu-studio distro that's still 99% standard)
<woutervddn> apart from docky..
<coz_> woutervddn,   I have seen it open fast on other distributions  ie  Fedora I believe it was
<coz_> woutervddn,  not sure if they did something to enahnce the loading
<woutervddn> ow.. yeah, then it will be just slow on the buntu's..
<woutervddn> ever used ubuntu-studio?
<coz_> woutervddn,  I have yes
<coz_> woutervddn,  I do all of my music composition on windows  unfortunatley...and graphics on linux
<woutervddn> what do you think of there standard artwork?
<coz_> woutervddn,  ubuntu studio's?
<woutervddn> uhu
<coz_> woutervddn,  i havent seen the current stuff  but I didnt like the default wallpaper a few versions ago
<woutervddn> coz_ about the music thing: two new projects will hopefully make linux a worthy music composition station..
<woutervddn> xD it's nice to see something that does the opposite of the normal ubuntu distro.. it gives me a sense of rebellion :p
<coz_> :)
<woutervddn> but I must say the last version had way to overloaded artwork..
<coz_> woutervddn,  which 2 new projects
<woutervddn> the Unison project, guy named pgib is writing LMMS all over with all the cons of LMMS in mind
<coz_> mm
<woutervddn> and then there is composite, that should become a live version of hydrogen
<woutervddn> so if those projects would succeed, it would mean we have a decent opponent for ableton and for FL studio..
<coz_> woutervddn,    ardour is a nice  DAW  for linux but I am not used to it
<woutervddn> I love ardour, I don't have an apple and I've tried everything in windows, but linux+ardour is like the only thing that I can use to record 2 audio streams at once and use my headset (true ardour) without (to much) latency
<woutervddn> I'm working on a project that goes true all the steps of setting up a home recording studio..
<woutervddn> (in linux)
<woutervddn> but due to my exams its on a 4 week hold :p
<coz_> woutervddn,  understood
<RawChid> Hey, I want to get some info on the new moinmoin LoCo theme on wiki.ubuntu.com Anyone knows where I can find more about this project and its progress
<RawChid> This is close, but didn't found anything useful yet: http://www.mail-archive.com/loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com/msg00215.html
<thorwil> what a mess
<kwwii> thorwil: indeed
<vish> kwwii: say something! ;)
<vish> thorwil: do you know where the latest freeculture page is?
<thorwil> nope
<thorwil> vish: oh shit "It's a pretty basic understanding for anyone working in a FOSS team. You seem to be new to how tasks work for a team."
<thorwil> "It seems you are not a native English speaker"
<vish> yea.. i know ;p
<thorwil> vish: now i really never would want to piss you off, you berserker! ;)
<vish> thorwil: come on.. was that really that bad.. :s
<vish> meh.. but it was really silly.. i dint know of a better way to say "shutup! you jackass"
<thorwil> i wonder where the point is to ask him to just go away
<thorwil> vish: what was that last edit about? http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0010_Alternate_Natty_Wallpapers?action=diff&rev1=1&rev2=2
<vish> thorwil: i deleted that page..
<troy_s> Greets.
<thorwil> vish: this bloody imbecile of a wiki software. why doesn't it say so, instead of presenting a bullshit diff
<vish> thorwil: oh! that's pretty stupid of the wiki.. i thought it would have been moved when i renamed the page the last time. but the page still existed until one deletes it.
<thorwil> troy_s: we now reached the level of mud-catching, so it can only take a few aeons until we get to grokking the implications of cultural bias in artwork
<troy_s> thorwil: wow you lost me.
<troy_s> Mud catching?
<troy_s> Lol
<vish> wasnt it 'mud-slinging'?
<thorwil> troy_s: fighting over a wiki page and questions about authority
<troy_s> Ugh we covered that aeons ago.
<thorwil> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_prDcjqclZ2g/TI_NA0et_0I/AAAAAAAAAm8/kXXyc0cUMts/s400/MudBowl2009.jpg
<vish> troy_s: when new people get active, we need to revise the old lessons. ;)
<troy_s> It is very simple. A big huge Canonical endorsed or Unofficial stamp.
<thorwil> vish: if only. john is not new
<vish> yea, even worse!
<vish> thorwil: well, rather he is new in working 'as' a team
<vish> he just used to do his own theme and get it updated.. and i dont think he was active in any other project...
<troy_s> The point is that no project should mislead people. Using the term ubuntu confuses folks. Canonical, being often alien to new folks, does not in that it begs a question.
<troy_s> Still improvement ... two people on the same side is better than none.
<troy_s> kwwii: Wake up.
<vish> troy_s: hehe, i just read you reply.. to my comment â¦ you expanded my last line.. ;)
<vish> your*
<troy_s> I think that is the crux of the issue.
<troy_s> If we are content wallowing in this goofy mudpit, change nothing.
<vish> yupp.. but i dint want to expand it further than that.. :)
<troy_s> The ignorant fall into two classes.
<troy_s> Those that don't have an issue with our current level of art and design discourse and think all is good.
<troy_s> And those that think it is only a matter of time before magic will bring along talented creatives.
<troy_s> In reality I know of two BFa artist that are now practising that passed through the Ubuntu art list -before- they were at firms.
<troy_s> What happened? They didn't stay. They were repulsed away.
<troy_s> So, from what I can see, we are hemorrhaging creatives.
<vish> yea.. i think people visit but dont see an interesting place to stay.. it doesnt benefit them, no healthy discussions, nothing creative..
 * woutervddn lurking
<woutervddn> this conversation look about take an interesting spin..
<troy_s> Amen
<woutervddn> apperantly it isn't :(
<troy_s> It is precisely that. The environment, the soil if you will, is fundamentally infertile
<troy_s> So much so that most sunk in it can't see it. And it is a systemic issue with cultural ethics.
<troy_s> http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html
<troy_s> I believe that Libre culture is much like that Google culture cited in that article.
<thorwil> only instead of testing several shades of blue, it's just pick one randomly?
<troy_s> thorwil: You know my answer to that.
<troy_s> thorwil: Random opinion aka "data" is noise.
<troy_s> thorwil: We should live and die by our desired audience. Not current audience. Not the random audience that we happened to have ended up with.
<thorwil> troy_s: i won't advocate a detail obsessed engineering approach, what i meant is that that at least shows a level of caring, which seems to be absent in what you call Libre culture
<troy_s> thorwil: And that doesn't mean polling or asking or testing. Imagine crafting a book thatbway. Or a movie. Or art...
<troy_s> thorwil: I completely disagree. It highlights a fundamental and critical disjointed perception of how art and design function as language. How art and design functions in a culture.
<thorwil> whatever
<troy_s> Sorry.
<troy_s> Its bogus synthetic caring.
<troy_s> That achieves nothing. Poll 100 people on what color to make a sign.
 * woutervddn is wondering, is troy really suggesting different artwork for different cultures?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Hell yes.
<troy_s> woutervddn: That is called glocalization.
<woutervddn> hmm.. that would leave us with 200 U's, 200 xU's, 200U-kU's, lU's, U-s's.. LoCoTeams would be buzzy I guess.. :s
<troy_s> woutervddn: But it is bigger and deeper than that really. It extends well past that as art is part of aesthetics and that means design.
<troy_s> woutervddn: So quit worrying about everyone.
<thorwil> troy_s: i think you missed that i was comparing bad to even less than that
<troy_s> thorwil: I did apparently. It is and I agree.
<thorwil> troy_s: just the idea that there a goals to aim at with a piece of visual design seems to be a *novel* idea in some free software circles
<troy_s> thorwil: But they are somewhat equivalent don't you think?
<troy_s> thorwil: LMAO. Yes agree.
<thorwil> in some cases, i had to wonder if i'm talking chinese
<troy_s> thorwil: But Google's approach appears to be plugging up the hole where real progress can be made.
<thorwil> troy_s: funny that afaik the logo-type is based on the taste/whims of a single woman, without any justification behind it
<troy_s> thorwil: Arguably better than the usual tripe we vet art and design by.
<troy_s> thorwil: So I am torn on that.
<troy_s> thorwil: Still, with zero creative minded numbers there is zero leadership or alternate opinion and the culture is encouraged down goofy paths.
<kwwii> hey troy_s
<troy_s> woutervddn: Your statement worried me.
<kwwii> troy_s: been avoiding you, but you finally trapped me
<troy_s> kwwii: Wow who is that!?
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> some community member who thinks he knows everything
<woutervddn> troy_s: which statement?
<kwwii> so do we get to vote on what is included in ubuntu or what?
<kwwii> :-)
<troy_s> woutervddn: Two paths: try to bake a cake that -everyone- will love. Or try to bake a cake that no one will find offensive. Good luck to either case.
<kwwii> ouch, this is one of those "big" discussions
<thorwil> kwwii: nah, that's just troy_s's presence bending it
<thorwil> ;)
<kwwii> lol
<woutervddn> lol
<kwwii> troy_s and I argued about things continually, but I rarely ever said he was wrong
<troy_s> It isn't like any of it is easy that is for certain. We have some colossal minds.
<thorwil> would only lead to a question of what kind of wrong and in what context?
<troy_s> Always and all.
<troy_s> Well then.
<troy_s> Vish thorwil how goes that list?
<troy_s> vishwil.
<thorwil> troy_s: people don't respond to feedback and one guy runs specification/task-creating amok
<troy_s> thorwil: hrm. Is the goal of the briefs clear?
<troy_s> Thor
<troy_s> Grr
<vish> troy_s: well, i'm loosing my cool today with the list and from what thorwil hints at, it might not be my first time â¦ :s
<troy_s> thorwil: As in who the briefs are intended for?
<thorwil> troy_s: have fun: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0010_Alternate_Natty_Wallpapers?action=recall&rev=1
<troy_s> vish: Hot headed vishy. I personally would think heated would be a nice change of pace. Shows a pulse.
 * vish tries to meditate and be more like thorwil ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: I think someone linked me to that before.
<troy_s> thorwil: I am daft though. I don't get it.
<woutervddn>  question, who comes up with the metaphors? :p
<troy_s> woutervddn: Tough though. No constraints are no better.
<vish> troy_s: it's just someone dreaming fairies and ponies there..   or maybe they took some fairy dust and thats what cause that..
<thorwil> troy_s: welcome to the jbaer experience
<thorwil> troy_s: thing is, he's using patterns he took from briefings i wrote
<vish> One hell-of-a-ride! nice copy-paste work..
<troy_s> vish: LOL. I am still stuck wondering why the list should exist at all. I think Cory n Co decided a while back it was for community artwork (no clue what that is)
<vish> yea.. i would vote for closing it..
<troy_s> thorwil: Hey that's good.
<vish> thorwil: i expected another copy-paste work for the SC task, hence got to it before baer.. ;p
<troy_s> Erm...
<troy_s> Goal: Gooder.
<thorwil> troy_s: much of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper is my work. the reason you find things like "It is not focused on any particular user group or case." is because you can't get anything else from the xubuntu folks
<troy_s> Sadly, all attempts at progress seem bound to be lost due to low level semantic machinations. Assumptions that are clearly different.
<troy_s> Ok... question.
<troy_s> vish: What would you hope the role of Briefs would accomplish?
<troy_s> thorwil: You too.
<troy_s> woutervddn: You too. I made the assumption that vish and thorwil value and want them. Feel free to say that you don't feel they are necessary or such.
<vish> well, IMO, it gives a better understanding of the client, than the task.. well we get a direction for the task, but more about the client..
<thorwil> troy_s: a good brief defines the goal or goals. these must at least allow to decide for a marching direction, if the goals are not reachable in absolute terms
<thorwil> goals for visual design fall back to goals of the project. where your beloved audience comes into play
<troy_s> thorwil: Ok. Who are they there for? How does the who find them?
<woutervddn> I agree with vish..
<thorwil> troy_s: potential contributors. via the list, so far (maybe i get around to carry it elsewhere)
<woutervddn> and thorwil :p
<troy_s> thorwil: By who I mean "Who implements them and creates them" and "Who is desired to execute or engage them"
<troy_s> thorwil: So list subscribers. Which brings merit to vish's desire to have a list announcement.
<troy_s> thorwil: How many contributions have there been? Has there been overlap? In the case of an overlap of brief adoption, who resolves the overlap?
<thorwil> troy_s: just a handful so far. always the same people
<thorwil> troy_s: what overlap?
<troy_s> thorwil: I ask because it seems yourself and vish are in somewhat of agreement. So what part of the structure hasn't been made clear to Mr. Baer or what part of his belief isn't clear to Mr. Vish and Mr. Wilms.
<ivanka> thorwil: vish: hi!
<ivanka> doctormo: you there too? Hello!
<troy_s> thorwil: Because the frustration isn't likely to move things forward.
<vish> ivanka: hey.. where is you magic wand..? ;)
<vish> your*
<ivanka> vish: not close at hand but I do have this: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/36WWXCF
<ivanka> vish, want to take a look and feedback so we can send it out?
<thorwil> hi ivanka
<ivanka> thorwil: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/36WWXCF
<vish> troy_s: not the brief, but the proposal for inclusion it is aimed at.. and the automatic assumption that it falls on the team to work on it..
<vish> ivanka: neat!
<troy_s> ivanka: Greetings.
<ivanka> vish - it has no intro text, shall I include some?
<ivanka> troy_s: good evening
<vish> vish: yea, that would be nice, esp for someone coming directly to the page..
<ivanka> okie dokes - will get on it
<troy_s> vish: But the team is technically undefined. At some point it would seem that someone somewhere has to make a hard decision. Ombudsman.
<troy_s> vish: It would seem the current "issue" is a lack of understanding. Who the briefs are for. Who fleshes them out. Etc. I am guessing the mighty Wiki hater / forger thorwil plays a large role.
<troy_s> vish: Let's face it... the "team" in terms of core leadership is yourself and thorwil unless I am missing a glaring few names.
<vish> troy_s: nah, basically what baer mentions already exists, but there havent been any wallpapers included in default, since there might not have been any good submissions yet.. so instead of looking at the existing task.. he just comes up with a whole new process..
<troy_s> vish: What does "in default" mean?
<thorwil> unfortunately, after barely managing to get http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/debconf-12-nicaragua-bid-logo/ out, i have to run!
<thorwil> cya all!
<troy_s> thorwil: See you thorwil.
<vish> troy_s: he says, only fotos have been in additional community wallpapers, the ones that you blog about
<vish> the 15-20 extra ones apart from the default..
<troy_s> vish: Well let's be brutally realistic here... find me one illustrator with strong enough skills to warrant that. One.
<woutervddn> guys I've got to run, good night all ;-)
<vish> troy_s: exactly! there havent been good illustrations to include in the default.. *he* doesnt realize that..
<troy_s> vish: I can think of exactly two libre software folks (with some degree of ties) that have the ability needed to create work that would be solid.
<troy_s> vish: Andreas Beijer (bfa) and Alex Covics
<troy_s> And no amount of contest driven submissions will attract them.
<ivanka> vish: what about this?  http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/36WWXCF
 * vish looks them up..
<vish> ivanka: looks good! thanks. :)
<troy_s> vish: Takes me back to the great debate that this should be about the people. Not the work.
<vish> oh! it's 2:45 am here..!
<troy_s> vish: night. I have to get ready for a screening anyways.
<vish> troy_s: /me hits the sack as well.. catch you later.. nite.. :)
<troy_s> vish: Email me vishy.
<vish> sure â¦
<ivanka> vish: am mailing that link to ubuntu artwork and ayatana
<ivanka> will post to blog and tweet once I have seen what comes back
<vish> ivanka: cool! we need to get people to spread the survey as well..
<ivanka> yeah - will do that first thing
<ivanka> vish - would be nice to see what responses we get just off these two lists first
<vish> ivanka: yeah, right..
<ivanka> vish: did I see you say it was 2.45am where you are?
<ivanka> vish: catch you tomorrow :-)
<vish> ivanka: yea.. later  :)
<ivanka> vish: night!
<doctormo> ivanka: yes, hello?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-14
<RawChid> Hey, I want to get some info on the new moinmoin LoCo theme on wiki.ubuntu.com Anyone knows where I can find more about this project and its progress
<RawChid> This is close, but didn't found anything useful yet: http://www.mail-archive.com/loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com/msg00215.html
<thorwil> RawChid: perhaps ask newz in #ubuntu-web (or is it #ubuntu-website?). though i will likely be a few hours until he's available
<thorwil> good morning
<thorwil> iainfarrell: i hate pestering you, but: ubuntu brainstorm?
<RawChid> thorwil: thnx
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> hi coz_
<coz_> thorwil,  hey guy
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/designing-wallpapers-for-edubuntu-and-xubuntu/
<kwwii> thorwil: nice post
<thorwil> ty
<coz_> thorwil,  especially that first paragraph
<thorwil> :)
 * thorwil whacks coz_'s connection
<coz_> :)
<woutervddn> just got a message from the ML.. I understand the thing about the mudfight now..
 * vish  beginning to think john is delusional.. 
<woutervddn> lol, why is that?
<vish> it took me 10 mins to find the relevant links.. and he just couldnt have done that on his own!!
<woutervddn> xD
<woutervddn> you two seem to be good friends..
<woutervddn> that was a long survey o_o
<vish> woutervddn: "delusional" since i noticed that he thanked thorwil for the blog... 0.o   not sure why he thinks the Xubuntu/Edubuntu is wholly his effort..
<woutervddn> nvrmnd it..
<vish> woutervddn: Both Xubuntu/Edubuntu members joined the list only since *I* informed them to join and take part.. and the Xubuntu leader spoke to thorwil and saleel during the UDS.. ;)
<woutervddn> vish: who made the questions for the survey?
<vish> woutervddn: the person who requested to take part :)
<woutervddn> vish: how long is he active in the team?
<woutervddn> vish: how do you mean?
<vish> woutervddn: the person who sent that mail asking to take part in the survey.. :)
<woutervddn> ow, I thought it was one of you guys, since she asked if it was okay yesterday, I thought she just made a survey of your questions..
<vish> woutervddn: not sure how long he is on the list, but the only activity from him was about his theme.. i forgot the theme name.. it's in the community package..
<woutervddn> don't know, I'm here for only a month or so (might be 2 but still..)
<woutervddn> anyways.. there was 1 remark I had about the survey questions (not to be picky, rather a mind spin of me..)
<woutervddn> there was this question about: how do you find out about new projects..
<vish> woutervddn: sure, you can reply to the mailing list as well.. it might be a common concern..
<woutervddn> it's to late anyways,.. :) and not such a big deal..
<woutervddn> so putting it on the (allready way to overwhelmed ML) wouldn't be a solution :p
<woutervddn> I think there might be more usefull answers with a question like: how do you LIKE to find out about new projects..
<woutervddn> the artwork team is unique in some way which creates needs for another type of communication..
<woutervddn> (there is no dev team in the world that could manage with so many contributors, but in a place of artwork there can be)
<woutervddn> *-) I might just post my idea to the ML afterall.. the more I think about it...
<thorwil> woutervddn: some development teams are larger than the actually small group of active posters on the art list
<thorwil> woutervddn: i wonder, do you use a mail client that supports threading, that is, shows mails in a tree-like fashion?
<woutervddn> nowp I don't and I know that is a pain and it's not your fault.. :)
<woutervddn> and true about the first thing and that's my point.. many people don't even read the ML because of the mails they get that don't involve the things that they like to work on..
<woutervddn> for instance: if I've never used edubuntu and don't even know something about it, chances I'll feel attracted to make a wallpaper for it are way slimmer..
<woutervddn> getting 40 posts about it isn't going to encourage me to read the ML..
<woutervddn> [but yes clients with threading would make this easier to cope with]
<thorwil> if you think ubuntu-art has a problem with the breadth of topics pr the amount of mails, you can't have seen many free software mailing lists, yet ;)
<thorwil> not that a more fine grained and dynamic way of subscription/following wouldn't be nice, but no email alternative has taken off, so far
<woutervddn> well it's part of my mail clients fault that it looks such a mess.. but I thought it might help to keep people focused..
<woutervddn> 2 arts digests with almost exclusively RE:'s on the same topic aren't that desirable when you've got nothing to do with that topic (imo)
<woutervddn> (apart from some nice mails from john to vish..)
<woutervddn> (and back..)
<vish> woutervddn: you havent seen the last one yet.. ;)
 * vish just sent one now..
<woutervddn> vish: can't wait until the next digest :p
<woutervddn> No fighting!  be human!
<thorwil> digest mode is an anti-feature
<woutervddn> I can't keep up if I get all mails separately.. :)
<woutervddn> I tried it, but when I'm at school for a whole day and come home I'll have like 50 messages then,.. gone overview :(
<woutervddn> [remember the inability of my client to bundle the messages..]
<thorwil> same solution: use a decent client ;)
 * thorwil -> dinner
 * woutervddn is guessing thorwil doesn't like my idea :p
<thorwil> woutervddn: irc meetings tend to be no problem for vish or me, but for others they are. also, we can't wait for the next meeting every time decisions have to be made
<woutervddn> I wasn't saying otherwise :)
<woutervddn> I know that you guys go for it all the way.. but we both agree that others don't
<thorwil> woutervddn: what's left from your idea, then?
<woutervddn> my idea covered that.. exact same thing..
<woutervddn> I said that the important decisions should be made in the IRC
<woutervddn> the fact that's allready going on means that you're allready doing that part of the idea i suggest..
<thorwil> woutervddn: you said "meetings", though, which to me suggests presence of everyone involved and a date and time scheduled in advance
<thorwil> whereas here things are discussed ad-hoc, by who happens to be there
<woutervddn> no, that wasn't what I meant, I allready said previously that IRC meetings with +200 people would end up in disaster..
<woutervddn> I believe you take my mail as a threat.. (or at least that's what your reaction looks like..)
<thorwil> we would never have 200+ people
<woutervddn> figuratively speaking^
<woutervddn> thorwil: I wasn't saying that was the way things should go, pls understand that :s
<woutervddn> you look offended by what I wrote..
<thorwil> woutervddn: no, i take your mail as being based on misunderstandings on extrapolating from your situation unto others
<thorwil> woutervddn: i don't know why you think i would be offended
<thorwil> woutervddn: i try to be patient in clearing up things for you, and what do i get? you think i'm offended
<thorwil> shall i laugh or cry?
<woutervddn> non of both pls..
<woutervddn> I appreciate the fact that you are trying to clear things up, but from where I read your messages it looks like you're throwing everything in to counter..
<woutervddn> the only thing I wanted to do is to create an open dialogue about it..
<thorwil> an open dialog contains the possibility that all you get is contra arguments. which might be related to the idea at hand and have shit all to do with who suggested it
<woutervddn> true, but the way you put it seems like you're 'biting off' (it's a saying in dutch, don't know if it's used in English as well)
<woutervddn> and my mail is indeed based on extrapolation.. There isn't really a way around that I believe..
<woutervddn> indeed you have a point when you say many things would be more clear if I'd have a client that would group the messages..
<woutervddn> thorwil: btw, my 'personal, ideal situation' isn't all that different from what you're doing now (as I see it)..
<woutervddn> now: allready IRC meetings are used for big concerns, the reports are allready in the ML, proposals, and approvals are allready in the ML and each page allready has its landing page..
<woutervddn> the only things I was thinking of (suggesting is allready a word that is to big) is the fact that there would be sub-ML's on which you could subscribe..
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-15
<vish> doctormo: what is the status of the deviantart group and free culture?
 * thorwil wonders what evilvish did
<vish> hehe.. ;)
<vish> yea, i need to register that nick... i noticed that some people use that as an alternate nick..
<vish> thorwil: what is all the confusion with the separate groups? why the new process when there already is a separate group for illustration?
<thorwil> vish: i just replied to john's 2nd request to you. if he doesn't get his act together now, i will ask him to leave
<vish> thorwil: thanks.. :)
<thorwil> vish: it started with me saying that we need no other pool at all. that illustrations can be added to the one flickr pool (i don't recall it ever being limited to photos, that's just what happened because of flickr's audience)
<kwwii> isn't leading this community fun?
<vish> thorwil: yea.. i noticed, but it was just a failure that the last task never got completed.. :(
<thorwil> vish: but saleel thinks illustrations in there would get overlooked, so he wants a separate pool. i said i'm *not opposed* to that
 * vish wondering if doctormo is reading the artwork mailing list mails..
<vish> thorwil: right, but there already is a group, for illustration.. we did the same thing last time.. freeculture created a new group.. then doctormo can with the community team(laura) and started asking why there are two teams.. and then we merged into the #deviant-artists teamm
<vish> we are now again, running round in circles.. :s
<thorwil> vish: deviantart sucks even harder than flickr, the collection there is not convincing at all and the failure of the last round is another pointer that we should think twice of relying on canonical where we don't have to
<vish> s/ doctormo can / doctormo came
<thorwil> i admit i never really understood the path from the showcase to illustrative wallpapers
<vish> thorwil: if doctormo's deviantart group doesnt work, then we should make it clear and update it for free culture showcase
<thorwil> vish: extra fun, allmost all pieces in that deviantart gallery that i would care about are from John, of all people!
<vish> yea.. ;p
<vish> doctormo: i'v cc'd you on the mail.. regarding the deviant art.. pls read! ;)
<vish> sheesh..!  john has some fire lit somewhere!
<vish> thorwil: i took up your role.. "deliverer of the bad news" ;p
<vish> just this once.. ;)
<thorwil> vish: great mail
<vish> thorwil: thanks.. we cant let you be the only one writing the good mails always.. ;)
<doctormo> vish: I haven't got an email yet, what is this all about please?
<vish> doctormo: you should have got a mail with the subject" Community-wallpapers package  .."  i sent it to the nic@gmail.c id..
<vish> doctormo: are you still subscribed to the artwork list?
<doctormo> vish: yes
<vish> doctormo: well, it is also there..
<doctormo> there are a lot of emails in that thread, the original one?
<vish> doctormo: the whole issue was about the deviant art FCS failure last cycle
<vish> free culture showcase
<doctormo> Yes, that was a bit of a bummer, I thought we'd worked it out.
<doctormo> Just read your summary email
<vish> doctormo: john conveniently forgot about the free culture thing and is now trying to create a whole new process..
<vish> someone needs to smack some sense into him!
<doctormo> I'll be honest Vish, I've given up trying to make sense of what John is doing and how it relates to the Art team. I'm not feeling to love of putting time into the art team at the moment.
<vish> everyone gave up on him..
<vish> everyone who knows something.
<vish> doctormo: but the issue is, people are being mislead..
<vish> he seriously is schizophrenic , and has delusions of grandeur..
<doctormo> Well yes
<doctormo> We could have a talk with him and if that doesn't convince him to leave, moderate him off the mailing list.
<doctormo> It's hard to see how anything else can be done
<doctormo> We've tried asking him to not be a jerk over lots of issues.
<vish> +1
<doctormo> vish: I've sent him an email asking to talk and explaining some things.
<vish> cool, thanks..
<vish> doctormo: pls cc, the artwork list..
<doctormo> vish: I can't, it's a private email. I'll cc the list when it's out of private.
<vish> otherwise, everyone just gets mislead by his actions
<doctormo> vish: We'll deal with perceptions after the issues are resolved, can't start healing until we've cured.
<vish> doctormo: hmm,, well atleast try to cc non-personal stuff..  right now, it just seems like thorwil and I are against any changes in the team..
<vish> k.. :)
<doctormo> vish: Let's try and do this by the book as it where, I think putting it on the list may be seen at the moment to be counter productive and ask members to take sides.
<vish> doctormo: nah, i dint mean about taking sides.. raising questions about his proposals sorta thing
<vish> doctormo: anyway.. as you say.. lets try off list, and then let's see
<doctormo> vish: Can't deal with the specific technicals until the inter-personal is clear.
<vish> yup..
<doctormo> vish: Although that recent email seems to suggest he's leaving.
 * vish crosses fingers..
<thorwil> ok, that last mail of him made it really clear: he's an idiot. and i don't say that lightly
 * thorwil -> coffee
<coz_> anyone know who was chosen for creating the new sounds on natty?
<kwwii> coz_: maybe it will be a contest :D
<thorwil> vish: http://www.essentialtpe.com/global/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108:the-icon-battery-pack-for-iphone&catid=57
<doctormo> thorwil: We need to call you thor-not-a-contest-will ;-)
<coz_> kwwii,  hey guy sorry for delayed response ,,,had to go to the store... I think it sort of already was...there were a number of us that submitted sound examples
<coz_> I just wanted to know if a decision as to whom would do the work has been made
<thorwil> doctormo, vish: i wonder if the topic of using spreadubuntu or art.ubuntu-owl.org should be brought up again
<thorwil> i tolerated john pushing flickr because i was happy having someone else taking care of specs, but obviously it was a mistake (to not block right on the first communication issues)
<doctormo> thorwil: I'd be happy to put some mind to the problem, because it's one of those true issues where no solution is truely good enough.
<thorwil> doctormo: don't you think that art.ubuntu-owl.org perhaps with few small tweaks or spreadubuntu with the addition of appropriate categories would be good enough as interim solution?
<doctormo> thorwil: I think it might indeed.
<thorwil> doctormo: you might be the only one knowing both at least from the user side, putting you in the best position to make a choice
<thorwil> though for a request regarding spreadubuntu, i might have a small bonus thanks to my recent work for it :)
<vish> thorwil: hmm, i think i might have been disconnected in the middle there.. after you gave the link there is doctorm-o's comment about thor-not-a-contest-wil â¦
 * vish confused..
<thorwil> vish: no, this channel wasn't vishless
<vish> ;p
<vish> thorwil:  yea, the art.ubuntu-owl.org needs to be brought up.. but for which?
<vish> which task*
<thorwil> vish: kwwii mentioned 'contest' to coz, doctormo was reminded of my last blog post, where i said "Feel free to build on the work of others and to collaborate, as this is not a contest". i guess. also http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/on-design-contests-in-floss/
<vish> ah! :)
<thorwil> vish: switching for the edu/x/l wallpapers might be too disruptive, so whatever comes next with a ned to collect submissions
 * vish nods..
<vish>  management change ! ;)
<doctormo> thorwil: You know my rambling conjunctions better than I could respectfully expect anyone to.
<doctormo> vish: sorry for the confusion there.
<doctormo> I've had no response from baer yet, he might be offline or might be thinking it over.
<vish> doctormo: nah, i was more confused and a bit thrown off by the link thorwil gave.. :)
<vish> i was expecting john to blowup somewhere pretty soon..  /o\
<thorwil> vish: i just though you would enjoy a battery icon battery
<vish>  :)
<doctormo> It looked cool, all applish swish
<vish> yea.. i wonder if the thing is cylindrical or just flat..
<doctormo> The deps on tex really need fixing, pdfjam shouldn't need 250MB of debs.
<thorwil> peanuts compared to a full texlive installation :)
<thorwil> boo, python just let me down with a "ValueError: too many values to unpack"
<doctormo> thorwil: What were you trying to do? I'm a python programmer after all.
<thorwil> doctormo: turns out i can't count! ;)
<doctormo> I think this is pulling in the entire of texlive, interestingly enough.
<thorwil> when i installed texlive manually for the ubuntu manual project (required newer version), i think it wanted about 2 GB, maybe more
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-16
<thorwil> hmm, are there 'unsubscribe' addresses for ubuntu lists?
<vish> thorwil: why not make the illustrative submission on art-owl?  it hasnt started yet, and if doctormo is OK, we could do it this cycle..
<ivanka> vish: good idea
<ivanka> the photographic wallpaper competition runs nicely
<vish> ivanka: hey, thanks.. and pls make sure illustrative submissions are highlighted this year.. (or we'll have john crying ;p)
<ivanka> maybe we could agree in advance that whatever space there is on the CD we choose 3 illustrative wallpapers and the rest are photos
<vish> yup..
<ivanka> k - follow up with iainfarrell
<ivanka> how are you vish? as busy as last cycle?
<vish> ivanka: hope i dont get as busy again this cycle... :)  forcing myself to sleep at times ;)
<vish> regular*
<ivanka> vish: good! sleep is good, my doctor told me ;-)
<vish> ;)
<vish> ivanka: we could move the photo submissions also to art-owl, (since people are complaining that the flickr pool is too large) , but not sure what the art-owl limit is..
<vish> doctormo: ^ any idea how much it can take?
<vish> and we do have the canonical sysadmin ready to allot us server space for the art.u.c site.. so that might help later.
<ivanka> vish: what about love.ubuntu.com?
<vish> oooh! even better.. :)
<ivanka> vish - that way we avoid it being about specific skills and more about giving 'design love' to ubuntu projects?
<thorwil> can we have pink instead of orange, then? :)
<vish> ivanka: as a bonus we might get more google hits with 'love' in the url.. ;)
<ivanka> thorwil: pink and butterflies :-)
<ivanka> vish: heh
<ivanka> surely we can come up with something less 'art' OR 'design' and more about creative endevours
<vish> why not just "creativity.ubuntu.com" ?
<ivanka> becreative.ubuntu.com?
<vish> it maybe just me, but anything with "creative" seems like a collaboration with www.creative.com/
<thorwil> vish: don't let them own words! bloody capitalism :)
<vish> :)
<ivanka> hi kwwii, are you around?
<ivanka> thorwil: hehehe
<ivanka> vish, thorwil: how about benice.ubuntu.com? hahaha
<vish>  innovation.ubuntu.com
<vish> or ingenuity  .n.. there is fecundity / fertility.. but when we shorten them it doenst sound nice,,
<thorwil> some say creative endeavors are a replacement for giving birth, so how about pregnancy.ubuntu.com? 0.o
<darkmatter> epidural.ubuntu.com same connotation but less painful
<woutervddn> I only read the last two sentences and what crossed my mind was: WTF? o_O
<vish> woutervddn: exactly the reaction you should get, when you open your mind to the wonderful world of design.. ;)
<woutervddn> xD
 * thorwil changes coordinates in order to consume food
<doctormo> vish: owl should be able to take medium load
<doctormo> ivanka: I beat you to love http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/en/material/poster/reasons-love-ubuntu
<ivanka> doctormo: got any other ideas?
<doctormo> ivanka: maybe light.ubuntu.com >?
<ivanka> doctormo: I quite like that
 * ivanka tries to channel all the negatives so she can be prepared for backlash
<thorwil> everything is white here. or would be, if there was enough light
<vish> hahs, we could go for "surreal.u.c" ;p
<darkmatter> the white is a lie
<vish> hmm.. dream.ubuntu.com
<darkmatter> epidural.ubuntu.com "we make your ubuntu less painful"
<thorwil> vish: nah, that's too much that which does not happen
<vish> :p
<thorwil> darkmatter: antimasochistsenjoyment.ubuntu.com?
<darkmatter> ;D
<troy_s> Wtf
<woutervddn> exactly what I said..
<thorwil> troy_s: now you like woutervddn earlier
<troy_s> Name decisions? bacon.ubuntu.com because everyone likes bacon.
<troy_s> It is pretty hard to understand so I feel woutervddn 's pain.
<woutervddn> troy_s: vegans hate bacon -_-
<troy_s> woutervddn: You are talking to the wrong fellow for that. ;)
<troy_s> vish thorwil - How goes stuff?
<vish> lol! finally someone was able to make troy_s go wtf!! \o/
<thorwil> troy_s: today i used map() instead of a for-loop and now nothing can put me down!
<troy_s> vish: Not difficult.
<woutervddn> lol @ vish
<troy_s> thorwil: Geeky scripty
<vish> troy_s: coming up with a name for the new art/design site
<troy_s> vish: Oh gosh.
<vish> " something less 'art' OR 'design' and more about creative endevours"
<vish> we could just do the obvious and name it troy.u.c but it was too obvious ;p
<darkmatter> ipickmynose.ubuntu.com screams of creativity
<troy_s> vish: Yeah right up there with donkey.u.c.
<vish> lamo!!!
<vish> lmao was for darkmatter â¦ i really could not stop myself from laughigg
<woutervddn> flow.u.c
<vish> troy_s: well, at some point you gotta stop being too modest.. it doesnt suit you ;)
<troy_s> vish: Judging from all of that fantastic creativity on the mailing list it looks needed.
<woutervddn> ugh.. tomorrow exam of economics.. =( I know sh*t about it..
<troy_s> vish: Or is this more of the wonderful "Slap it up on a wall and some faceless person will pick the winners."
<vish> troy_s: well.. i think we might have had our first "shone(ing)" ;)  it was more of a tag team ( thorwil and moi )
<vish> we might have repelled john.. ;)
<troy_s> vish: I suspect there are better things for time.
<troy_s> vish: I looked at that list and it looked like "v t v t j j j" with a token UNSUBSCRIBE ME jammed in there.
<vish> :p
<troy_s> vish: I would wonder how to coax thoughts out of the other 1000 subscribers.
<thorwil> troy_s: we will rename "artwork team" to "discussion duo", soon
<vish> lol!!!
<troy_s> vish: Or at least see if any of them have any art / design interest or commitment.
<troy_s> Likely just a gmail filter gathering dust.
<troy_s> vish: Who is the admin? Still kwwii?
<vish> troy_s: i did try to bring up the topic of discussing more art/design on the list.. the discussion there is a tie now 2 in favor and 2 against.. and thorwil doesnt (yet) want to break the tie ;p
<vish> troy_s: yea.. kwwii is the admin, but he is having too much fun  ;)
<troy_s> vish: Seriously?
<troy_s> vish: Let me get this right
<thorwil> vish: i'm not even aware of that =0.o
<vish> thorwil: thats why i kept poking you.. i said lets do it and then cephrn said yes.. john and leogg said no..
<troy_s> vish: You asked on an art / design / creativity list if there should be a more creative approach to discuss more about art / design and two people suggested not?
<darkmatter> moar topics! that always helps in an ecosystem built on duct tape and crazy glue ;)
<vish> troy_s: yea.. they said it was bringing in bureaucracy! :/
<coz_> o0
<troy_s> vish: Whoever said no should be banished from the list.
<woutervddn> lol +1 at troy.. :p
<thorwil> vish: not that again. don't do a john
<vish> troy_s: we might have banished 1 (john)..
<troy_s> vish: Not qualified. Not competent. Should not be tolerated.
<thorwil> vish: i pointed out several times the issue was your "mandatory" mail to the list for every submission
<woutervddn> lol the "i want to stop this mail" is kind of funny :p
<troy_s> woutervddn: Which is that?
<vish> thorwil: well, if you dont say mandatory, no one will discuss.. like check out leogg, he said he dint have time to write a mail to the team.. but why did he announce his submissions?  because he doesnt want to get left out..
<woutervddn> Please...
<woutervddn> i want to stop this ubuntu mail..
<woutervddn> haw can i stop this??
<woutervddn> i have 7262 messages and 7000 is from ubuntu...
<woutervddn> plzzz help me to stop this :)
<woutervddn> and sorry for my english.. :)
<vish> thorwil: but even recommended is fine
<woutervddn> it stand between the mudfight :p
<woutervddn> might be an idea for a wallpaper: a war between two people and another one standing in the middle asking to get out.. xD
<troy_s> woutervddn: Ah the token UNSUBSCRIBE ME mails.
<vish> woutervddn: yea.. that we get every month in every active mailing list..
<thorwil> vish: yeah, leogg mailed a list of his pieces, i commented, no one else did, no further reply
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/mailing-lists
<vish> thorwil: exactly. that's just human nature, if you say recommended , everyone gets lazy.. but if it is mandatory.. then they add the effort.. but as i said, "recommended" is a good temporary solution..
<troy_s> thorwil: You forgot "And use an email system designed for contemporary email that provides filters."
<troy_s> thorwil: And to be fair... the vast bulk of people don't have a clue about what a mailing list is.
<darkmatter> http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/238/d/4/Coat_of_Arms_by_humon.jpg
<troy_s> thorwil: So in terms of sensitivity to potential audiences, the nerd optics fall short.
<thorwil> troy_s: not quite sure what you are saying there. i'm quite aware that knowing what a mailing lists is already makes you an "insider", kinda
<troy_s> thorwil: The unsubscribe issue is symptomatic perhaps
<troy_s> thorwil: Completely agree. Not "kinda"
<troy_s> thorwil: Is there a checklist on the wiki?
<thorwil> troy_s: thing is, i think it is net-harmful to get people on lists that can't figure out how to unsubscribe. at least if the lists cover technical matters
<troy_s> thorwil: That explains what those various uber-nerd techniques do?
<troy_s> thorwil: I can easily see where people hit a wall with mailing lists. They are almost exclusive to nerdville. Even intra company emails are generally cc.
<thorwil> troy_s: all i can find, and even that only with a direct search: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MailingLists
<thorwil> first link broken right there
<troy_s> Lol
<troy_s> thorwil: So as a less committed individual, mailing lists might not be optimal. The sad part is that there is a disparity between the uber-nerd and their mailing lists and the typical-casual that might gravitate to a forum. The two can't reconcile.
<thorwil> troy_s: lists and forums both suck in their own way
<troy_s> thorwil: Sure but they are language
<troy_s> thorwil: I wouldn't be worried about perfect or even close.
<woutervddn> troy_s: true about the don't reconcile..
<troy_s> thorwil: I can only speculate, but I would gamble that most North American netizens understand the language of forums better than the language of mailing lists.
<woutervddn> I hate to say this but imo troy's right again..
<woutervddn> the only way to introduce a more forum style approche in an ML is by hashtagging and allow to only recieve messages with the right hashtag..
<doctormo> Unless your having a chat, there is no need for forums or mailing lists.
<woutervddn> true that..
<troy_s> thorwil: Perhaps doubly so for art / design centric minds. Dribbble, Notcot, Juxtapoz, etc. all speak web based interaction models with auxiliary email notifications for the uber savvy.
<woutervddn> but how would you see that doctormo?
<thorwil> troy_s: while i've seen forums with high standards, i think they tend to attract more mouth breathers than lists ever could
<troy_s> doctormo: Depends on goals of course...
<woutervddn> and +1 for thorwil on that..
<doctormo> what are the goals?
<troy_s> thorwil: Look at Dribbble
<troy_s> thorwil: Or Typophile
<troy_s> thorwil: Very specific cultures there.
<troy_s> thorwil: Which is precisely my point on cultivating a culture.
<woutervddn> troy_s: neither of those are real forums..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Typophile most certainly id.
<troy_s> woutervddn: And Dribbble is interesting less as a technology platform and more of the audience it has selected and cultivated.
<troy_s> doctormo: And I completely agree with you. What are the goals?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Although in the case of the latter, I can't suggest the two aren't related.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Indeed it appears the very "low tech" interaction design touched a nerve for the audience.
<woutervddn> that approach indeed is better targeted for less technically focused people..
<woutervddn> and it's true far from all designers have technical (or logical) skills..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Erm. Most of the extremely talented artists I know are -ridiculously- technical, more so within their own domains.
<thorwil> woutervddn: are you talking about nail designers?
<woutervddn> lol no I wasn't.. but a more userfriendly approach will ultimatly also allow new people to feel comfortable being around..
<troy_s> woutervddn: New should be a trait. Not an end. Another trait should be of greater importance.
<coz_> is troy_s  picking people again ?
<coz_> picking on people rather
<coz_> damn fingers
<darkmatter> nah. he just likes hearing the sound of his own text ;)
<woutervddn> lol
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> Why yes. That's why I type it here. I generally just sit alone in a box and type into a text editor.
<troy_s> Clearly I am disrupting a fount of creativity and unbridled passion here.
<coz_> lol
<troy_s> Aight out for a while. Be good all.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-17
<thorwil> good morning
<stjohnmedrano> advance merry christmas everyone
<thorwil> interesting. with ubuntu/ambiance, there's not only a shadow below the top panel, but also on the left screen edge. and the last 3 pixel height of that shadow are subtly different
<coz_> are submissions to have CC  or gpl licenses?
<woutervddn> hi, thorwil..
<thorwil> hi woutervddn
<woutervddn> I've got a question for you :p
<woutervddn> for ubuntu-be we are planning to get ourself some tshirts..
<woutervddn> but we were still stuck about how to distribute them..
<thorwil> :p is a do not answer modifier ;p
<woutervddn> so I went to google and pressed in: ubuntu LoCo tshirt..
<woutervddn> and guess 2 times who's block I found as third link..
<woutervddn> anyways.. I was wondering how you guys do it..
<thorwil> woutervddn: you would have to ask kmrs75 in the chicago loco channel
<thorwil> woutervddn: for all i know, that design has never been printed ...
<woutervddn> ow.. :p sorry then.. I assumed you did print them.. the shirts look nice so :p
<woutervddn> we're just gonna stick with a huge circle of friends and the 'ubuntu-be' text.. now we just need to agree about what comes where on te shirt xD
<woutervddn> it's kind of a second attempt.. :)
<thorwil> woutervddn: do you talk to people in real life with your tongue hanging out, too? :)
<thorwil> woutervddn: anyway, obviously you should order a single batch and take care of distribution yourself. ideally directly from hand to hand
<woutervddn> yeah.. we're thinking about postal sending to.. but then it starts.. paypall, google checkout, giro, all of them, only two of those, only one..
<woutervddn> do you happen to know if you sent them buy postal service?
<thorwil> paypal is actually quite expensive, greedy bastards they are, rot in hell they should
<zniavre> +1
<thorwil> woutervddn: not sure what your are asking there
<woutervddn> gc asks about the same for transactions..
<thorwil> avoid both, if you can
<woutervddn> yeah.. you are the second one that tells us that :p
<woutervddn> so I guess we'll just drop that :p
<woutervddn> thx anyways.. :)
<thorwil> woutervddn: if you go with a local shop, or even one in europe you should have the option of direct bank transfer (i don't know the right terms in english)
<thorwil> that will be safer and cheaper
<woutervddn> true..
<woutervddn> problem is it's hell to check the bank account every day.. I think I'm going to suggest a second bank account that sends a conformation message every time a payment is recieved..
<thorwil> i don't see why you would  check the bank account every day
<woutervddn> not every day.. but it'll go like this: 1 shirt ordered by...
<woutervddn> reply from that person: I've transfered the money
<woutervddn> I: check.. nothing, tomorrow.. nothing, day after tomorrow.. finally arrived..
<thorwil> woutervddn: set a deadline. or even let one person collect cash during a meeting, if possible
<woutervddn> yeah.. I suppose that's another way to go..
<coz_> vish,   whose idea was it to replace the compiz/unity icon in ccsm?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-18
 * thorwil wonders what to think of john's 2nd "welcome newest member" mail
<coz_> I think I deleted that one let me check :)
<vish> thorwil: its more a fourth or fifth , but second of the day maybe..
<vish> thorwil: but the odd thing is when he mentions "colleague" ;)
<thorwil> vish: i only saw 2 of these, recently
<vish> thorwil:  he introduced equinox guy , and another person i forgot who..
<darkmatter> I think I'll seek refuge in here for a bit. the wiki-sheep-parrots-random-cattle-breeds are having their daily rabid foaming at the mouth moment. it should pass in 15 hours or so
<coz_> :)
<vish> thorwil: i'm pretty sure he is schizophrenic , leogg has been submitting for quite a while..
<vish> thorwil: heh! he already reviewed his submissions last week!
<vish> his = leogg's
<coz_> mm  "colleague;s"  second one isnt that bad
<vish> and he says "i invited" , probably mailed the guy when he added the image..
<vish> rather when john noticed the image(again.)
<thorwil> vish: i see how delusion applies, but otherwise there doesn't seem to be enough to diagnose schizophrenia :/
<darkmatter> yer mistaking ADHD for schizophrenia again
<coz_> strange talk for artwork :)
<thorwil> vish: question is, can and should we kick him out?
<coz_> wait i am confused,,, you want to kick someone out ?
<vish> thorwil: well, Ubuntu embraces all.. so we dont have a basis to kick him out yet,,
<darkmatter> me, for correcting him;P
 * vish kicks darkmatter â¦
<vish> ;p
<coz_> lol
<darkmatter> :P
<coz_> ok now I am confused...what did this guy do that would warrent even thinking about kicking him?
<coz_> warrant
<thorwil> ancient channel dwellers don't get the boot, why bother, actually ;p
<darkmatter> that's "mr. dweller".. no no. "mr. lurker" to you ;)
<thorwil> coz_: he shows signs of not living in the same reality and writes a lot of stuff that is just wrong, sometimes in a grotesk way
<vish> coz_: well, silliness.. and being too much of a chatter on the ML.. but i think in time if we keep ignoring him enough, he will shssh , but i doubt that would happen any time soon..
<thorwil> coz_: and does not listen, so you can't clear up anything with him
<coz_>   oh?  mmm  then I better pay close attention.. to the mailing list
<coz_> perhaps he is just over enthusiastic?
<vish> coz_: well, you seem to have missed the drama last week â¦ ;p
<coz_> vish,  oh  thank god
<coz_> :)
<vish> coz_: read the mailing list archives.. ;)
<coz_> vish,  oh my... ok  I will try to read them :)
<vish> coz_:  nah, not enthusiastic.. it's not possible to get through to him..
<coz_> oh ok
<vish> thorwil: i'm pretty sure one of these days he is going to ask to be the leader ;)
<vish> thorwil: claiming the edubuntu/xubuntu tasks to be his work/leadership skills
<thorwil> vish: i expect he will continue to act like he was, rather
<darkmatter> but the asking only counts if he spells it 'ledder', right? :D
<vish> lol
<vish> thorwil: nah, he is at some point going to try to shut us up... and he cant do that without claiming leadership..  :)
<thorwil> vish: he jumps on every case where someone thanks me and likened you to a schoolyard bully, so i don't see why you would think that ;p
<vish> ;)
<darkmatter> vish is cartman? that explains a lot ;)
<coz_> lol
<vish> shut up bit*#!!
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> I like cartman :)
<vish> cartman is awesome! :D
<vish> the COON!
<coz_> :)
<coz_> so   vish  is the bully now?
<vish> coz_: actually thorwil is the one.. ;)
<coz_> :)
<coz_> i would take over the role of bully but I tend to be very layed back
<coz_> eeww
<coz_> darkmatter   isnt he the christmas poo ?
<vish> coz_: nobody bullied him.. long story short: he added a task for illustrative wallpapers to the *Artwork* wiki without asking anyone, so i moved it to his wiki namespace and told him to discuss it first..
<darkmatter> coz_: yes. I was tormenting in another channel ;)
<coz_> vish,  wow   that is pretty agressive behavior on your part   lol
<coz_> damn bully
<vish> yea.. ;)
<vish> lol!
<vish> now we have stumble upon invites ;p
<kwwii> vish: ?
<vish> kwwii: we today got not 1 , but 3  "Join me on StumbleUpon!" spam on the list ;)
<kwwii> :P
<vish> thorwil: do you have the translations icon from the spreadubuntu site?
<thorwil> vish: queen elizabeth?
<vish> :D
<vish> still WIP..
<thorwil> vish: has to be in https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/spreadubuntu_art
<vish> thorwil: hmm, odd.. i must have been thinking of the current translate icon.. the one with the flags..
<vish> oh, no it's gone! spreadubuntu got thorwilized!
<thorwil> Ã® played with a flag concept, too: http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/spreadubuntu_icons.png  http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/spreadubuntu_translate.png
<vish> i think the flags are easier to recognize as local or whatever..
<vish> but yeah, probably not 'translate'
<vish> thorwil: i uploaded one, i think it would work for now.. until we have something better..
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-19
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> i am hajour from the accessibility team. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour
<hajour> we would like some advice for more accessibility icons http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/icons-design-accessible.html.en
<hajour> for a small Python+Gtk app
<hajour> there was told that i should get help when needed for the accessibility program.
<hajour> what they have told me accessibility got priority .they wanted so many as possible in the next ubuntu natty narwhal
<coz_> good day
<doctormo> thorwil: ping
<thorwil> doctormo: pong
<doctormo> thorwil: I had an email conversation with baer
<doctormo> thorwil: I basically asked him to account for the ill feelings and problems. he responded firstly by accusing me of having the problem and then by ignoring issues.
<thorwil> doctormo: yes, you have the problem, i have to be apologized for and vish is a bully
<thorwil> at the same time, the team is amazing and we are all happy to welcome new members invited by john
<thorwil> doctormo: if this was my project, i would kick him out
<doctormo> thorwil: I think I will have to talk to some members of the cc and maybe jono to get some advice.
<vish> doctormo: ignoring the issues is what he does best.. ;)  he doesnt usually have any response to the questions raised..
<doctormo> Since this sort of issue where you have a member ignoring consensus and bullying others by ignoring their views can't continue.
<doctormo> thorwil: On a happy note, I wanted to ask you if you would be willing to design a genetic wallpaper.
<thorwil> doctormo: add misrepresentation and bending facts. you could call it projecting an alternative reality
<doctormo> Yes it makes me deeply unhappy to be involved in a project with a person who is so very untrustworthy with the facts.
<thorwil> doctormo: as far as you might take this up via email, CC me, please
<thorwil> doctormo: based on your script that, to my understanding, randomizes the location and alpha of a number of objects?
<vish> heh, i was surprised that he said the artwork re-write was not a proposal, when he first should his draft in his namespace!
<doctormo> thorwil: Yes, but it's packaged now: http://doctormo.org/2010/12/18/genetic-wallpapers-now-available-to-test/
<vish> artwork wiki*
<doctormo> I will CC you both in email, when it comes time for email.
<thorwil> doctormo: it's an interesting concept, but i prefer total control over composition :)
 * thorwil -> dinner
 * darkmatter eats thorwil for dinner
<doctormo> thorwil: technically you do have total control, you specify which parts are dynamic.
<UndiFineD> great screencast doctormo
<doctormo> Anyway, have a think about it because I think you have to use some new kinds of thinking to imagine the kinds of ways it could be used to great effect.
<vish> thorwil , doctormo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/LocalContacts  can the wording in this page be improved?
<vish> hmm, maybe i can   s/consists/comprises
 * vish misses the wiki history links in this new theme :/
<thorwil> vish: apart from "Some of the Ubuntu Artwork team members have volunteered to be a local contact" being wishful thinking, it seems to be fine
<vish> hehe..
<vish> thorwil: well, some did volunteer to be contacts.. when discussing on the list.. not sure how it would turn out..
<vish> thorwil: just now i realized that the documentation link was missing from the header :s
<vish> and we were kinda duplicating the tasks and specifications links...
<vish> tasks has the spec links..!
<vish> we still need an icon for documentation..
<thorwil> vish: i deem it possible that you are the 2nd person to notice this issue. as pressing would be fixing it
<vish> thorwil: which the icon or the duplication?
<thorwil> vish: missing documentation link and confusion regarding tasks/specs
<vish> heh, yea.. we are one active bunch of people ;p
<darkmatter> we need a new spec to torment troy_s with. I shall call it YAI!
<doctormo> looks fine to me, although wording wise perhaps it's better to have "local art considerer" ;-)
<doctormo> thorwil: What private email have you sent to baer? have you asked him to leave or told him you're unhappy with him?
<thorwil> doctormo: to leave no, unhappy yes, though not directly
<doctormo> thorwil, vish: If you've done done so, please send an email directly to John Baer laying out in direct as terms as possible that you are unhappy and that you would like him to try and resolve the issues that you have with him and his conduct.
<doctormo> Depending on the outcome, the next step is to go to the CC directly, the matter may eventually if john lets it fester, end up with an reluctant ban of some kind.
<vish> doctormo: IMO, it's kinda a waste of time thinking too much about john, if we dont keep having a repeat of events like the alternate wallpaper, then meh..
<doctormo> vish: If it's ok with you and you don't mind then don't send the email.
<doctormo> For myself I'm unhappy from an administrative point of view, because I don't know what the hell tools we're supposed to be using as a group and I know it's damn well not supposed to be flickr.
<vish> doctormo: oh, you meant regarding flickr?
<doctormo> Regarding all sorts of things
<doctormo> attatude mostly, since that's the kind of thing that involves many issues and many new issues in the future.
<vish> yea..
<vish> doctormo: as i mentioned a couple of days ago, we can use art-owl for the UFS .. ivanka is also fine with using art-owl
<vish> doctormo: just remind her again before she announces, that you are OK with it..
<vish> iirc, i think she quit before you said OK.
<vish> i mean that art-owl is fine with medium load..
<doctormo> It should be, it's pleia2's server so we have the person who has root.
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-12-17
<acegirl> Hi can i join the team?
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-12-14
<godbyk> Was /usr/share/themes/Ambiance/unity/close.png generated from an SVG? If so, do you know where I can find the source SVG?  (I'm trying to generate higher-resolution images of some of the window control buttons for printed documentation.)
