#xubuntu-devel 2011-01-17
<charlie-tca> pleia2: on the project lead, do we hold an open vote in a meeting, vote by email, vote by survey or condorcet, or what now?
<charlie-tca> Do I just send an email out to Xubuntu devel ML and ask for votes as a response?
<pleia2> charlie-tca: whatever is acceptable to the team, since it's just you it's just a vote of confidence vote
<pleia2> so you could set up a "yes" "no" for yourself on launchpad, or just email the list and if anyone has strong objections to send them to the CC (or me)
<charlie-tca> Well then. I will send it out in an email to have a vote at the meeting on the 27th. Team seems to be willing to go with anything on it
<pleia2> sounds good :)
<pleia2> if you need an impartial vote-taker for those who can't attend you can use me if you want
<charlie-tca> Let
<charlie-tca> Â´s do something, anyway.
<charlie-tca> I don't know even know who is elgible to vote now. Maybe just tell them if they are interested, they should vote?
<pleia2> works for me
<charlie-tca> or at least comment one way or the other, with negatives coming to you
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> I don't anticipate issues really, it's a small project and you've done a great job of herding cats :)
<charlie-tca> I think the same way, but I would prefer to have someone complain now than later :-)
 * pleia2 nods
#xubuntu-devel 2011-01-18
<charlie-tca> hm, power failure in the middle of message writing doesn't work out well
<charlie-tca> ochosi: what happened to greybird? My natty install changed completely after updating
<charlie-tca> lighter gray panels, almost no change from launcher to selected launcher, sliders are dark gray instead of white
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> and it might be natty and xfce4.8 doing it, too
<charlie-tca> I picked tango icon set, but it is not switching from elementary
<charlie-tca> Looks like the icons and themes are locked somehow. 
<davmor2> charlie-tca: you need the magic key, to get it you need to kill 3 trolls and a dragon
<charlie-tca> davmor2: thanks. I will go hunting for the dragon, then
<ochosi> charlie-tca: no clue tbh
<ochosi> charlie-tca: screenshots?
<charlie-tca> Pretty sure it isn't greybird at all. It is something with xfce 4.8
<ochosi> oh ok
<charlie-tca> my connection seems a lot shakey today ;-(
<charlie-tca> ochosi, mr_pouit : apparently, todays fresh installation of Natty is using Bluebird themes to start the desktop, then switches to a modified greybird theme that can not be changed easily. I can change the Window Manager theme, but not the gtk theme in Appearance. The icons and theme are locked.
<charlie-tca> ochosi, mr_pouit : this theme lock is in both the fresh install and my Natty installation. the only thing that can be changed in Appearance is the font used.
<charlie-tca> ochosi, mr_pouit : screenshot at http://imagebin.org/133250
<charlie-tca> oh, yeah, and this is with my Appearance theme set to Clearlooks and icons set to Tango
<charlie-tca> I think I tried all the themes trying to find one that will change anything.
<charlie-tca> I was set up with greybird yesterday, when I started the system today, this is what I got
<ochosi> charlie-tca: looks like a clean theme-break. supposedly something with the engines is not working
<charlie-tca> Thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2011-01-20
<charlie-tca> Good morning
 * micahg waves to charlie-tca__
<charlie-tca__> Hello, micahg 
<charlie-tca__> Xubuntu community meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 32 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend.
<micahg> charlie-tca__: any progress on teh docs?
<charlie-tca__> sure
<charlie-tca__> micahg: I don't really know
<charlie-tca__> I can't find the guy
<charlie-tca__> guess I will have to send out an email to find out
<charlie-tca__> Hello, vinnl 
<charlie-tca__> Xubuntu community meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 32 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend.
<vinnl> Hi
<charlie-tca__> Xubuntu community meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now. Everyone is invited to attend.
<vinnl> Btw, guess who's got a ZaReason Terra HD nowadays :)
<charlie-tca> Really?
<vinnl> Yeah, it rocks :)
<charlie-tca> I need one of those
<vinnl> (Quite expensive, but very cool)
<vinnl> Yeah you do :P
<vinnl> Even Unity in 10.10 works smoothly
<charlie-tca> Now I gotta go find the bugs I lost track of in the power outage here
<vinnl> :S
<charlie-tca> Starting to think this "good ole dependable USA" isn't
<vinnl> Perhaps it's just something wrong in-house?
<charlie-tca> That's a 
<charlie-tca> BIG plus, getting unity in 10.10 to work
<charlie-tca> I would think it is city-wide, blinking out once a day, at different times
<vinnl> Yeah, only the dash can be slow sometimes, but I hardly use that
<vinnl> Do your neighbours have the same problems?
<charlie-tca> I have to ask them
<vinnl> Hehe, debugging power outages :P
<charlie-tca> It just seems sporadic at best. the power has to blink everyday, sometime within a 24-hour day
<charlie-tca> It is better when it does it while sleeping
<vinnl> :S
<vinnl> Yeah except that your alarm clock won't go off anymore :P
<charlie-tca> heh, yeah
<charlie-tca> minor compared to the computer resets, though
<charlie-tca> power outage affected the local school. It is not just this house, at least
<rafiii> good evening everyone
<rafiii> I saw the discussion on the mailing list about the default launcher in Natty, and someone (charlie kravetz) said that dragging from the App Finder to the desktop didn't create launchers.
<rafiii> I have installed Xfce 4.8 with the installer provided on the Xfce mailing list and it works, I can drag an app from to the menu or the app finder to the panel or the desktop, even from the desktop to the panel.
<vinnl> That's charlie-tca :)
<rafiii> thank you :) I'll ask him directly why my installation of Xfce has a different behaviour then :)
<rafiii> Another question : Do you need help to test Xubuntu on older hardware ?
<charlie-tca> rafiii: That's great that drop and drag is working 
<charlie-tca> but if you are going to test xubuntu, you will need to install natty, instead of compiling xfce
<charlie-tca> and , yes, we can always use testing on any hardware
<charlie-tca> rafiii: getting the test page reference. 
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
<charlie-tca> rafiii: you can add yourself to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers, so we know the actual hardware being used, if you don't mind.
 * charlie-tca thinks it would be great to have more than just him testing natty
<rafiii> No problem at all, I have been using Xubuntu for 3 years now and it will be my pleasure to help you
<rafiii> the oldest hardware I have is an AMD duron 1.3Ghz with 2x256 MB of ram and a pwoerVR Kyro 2 (I this this card doesn't have drivers)
<rafiii> then I have a 4 years old laptop with a core duo (from 900MHz to 1.8 GHz) with 2x1GB of ram and a radeon X1600. I also have an athlon 64 3400+ (2.4GHZ, single core) with 2x1GB of ram.
<rafiii> And I have 2 computers. One with a Phenom 2 X4 (quad core, 3.4Ghz) and a laptop with a core i7, but I think that it is not necessary to test Xubuntu on these 2 computers
<rafiii> so even if it is not a lot it could help to test Xubuntu on very different hardware
<charlie-tca> any testing is a big help
<rafiii> oki :) 
<rafiii> I just made a request to enter in the Xubuntu Testers team in launchpad
<rafiii> have to go now, good night :)
<charlie-tca> where does beardygnome hang out? I missed his question about updating natty today
#xubuntu-devel 2011-01-21
<charlie-tca> micahg: Lucid 10.04 docs are ready - bug 705734
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705734 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu Lucid) "Xubuntu-docs for lucid are out-dated" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705734
<micahg> charlie-tca: already grabbed them, it's a day late though, but I got a release ACK
<charlie-tca> thank you
<micahg> problem is codehosting is down at the moment
<charlie-tca> yeah, I see bzr is down for at least an hour now
<micahg> charlie-tca: why did you mark the devel task triaged on the docs bug?  I thought since it was targeted for lucid, that should be invalid
<charlie-tca> lost my head
<charlie-tca> So, I should mark it invalid?
<charlie-tca> micahg: it looks like I missed your updates on the bug
<charlie-tca> fixed it now, though
<micahg> ok, thanks
<charlie-tca> sorry, I should have refreshed it first, I guess,.
<micahg> charlie-tca: no worries
<Book_em_Dano> charlie-tca, how did you push xubuntu-docs for 10.04.2?
<charlie-tca> micahg is doing it
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: so, I'll be proposing a merge to your branch with the timestamp, pocket, and version changed, but otherwise I think it's ok, I have to do a test build still, but codehosting is down
<charlie-tca> We were just waiting to make sure they were ready
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: are there any updates for maverick and natty?
<Book_em_Dano> yes, there are some other commits for both that I can submit today
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: no rush, but how many updates do you intend for Maverick?
<Book_em_Dano> I don't have an exact number but I have updated the changelog at lp:xubuntu-docs/maverick
<Book_em_Dano> I was hoping to do all of the corrections and upload them all at once if possile
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: yep, go ahead and wait for that
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: I meant uploads, not individual changes :)
<Book_em_Dano> micahg: I don't think I have permission to upload to ubuntu-branches, I would need someone to sponsor the upload; I imagine just one upload once I've finished the commits
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: I'm happy to sponsor :)
<charlie-tca> Book_em_Dano: Thank you very much for the hard work on the documentation. It will be great to have them updated!
<Book_em_Dano> micahg: is the procedure to target a package for a milestone different than requesting a SRU for a package?
<micahg> nope, usually you don't need a milestone unless it needs to get in, so for this, it's needed for 10.04.2
<charlie-tca> Book_em_Dano: maverick has no milestones left, so it is just an update to it
<micahg> charlie-tca: technically not true, there should be an -updates milestone
<charlie-tca> Maybe my terminology is wrong then. There won't be another image published for it
<micahg> right :)
<Book_em_Dano> can anyone explain the difference between lp:xubuntu-docs/lucid and lp:ubuntu/lucid/xubuntu-docs?
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: the lp:ubuntu branch was the release branch, lp:xubuntu-docs is an "upstream" devel branch
<Book_em_Dano> can anyone explain how the version numbers for xubuntu-docs will be addressed? The version for the lucid version currently is 9.10.1, and with an update I assume the version would change to 9.10.2, but the version number is already utilized by the maverick version.
<charlie-tca> Each release should have it's own version of docs
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: no, I'm going to change it to 9.10.1.10.04.1
<charlie-tca> maverick should be changed to 10.10.1
<charlie-tca> natty should become 11.04.1
<micahg> charlie-tca: err, I'd make maverick 9.10.2+really10.10
<micahg> after natty is updated of course to 11.04
<micahg> maybe I should make lucid 9.10.1+really10.04.1
<charlie-tca> the numbers correspond to the release itself. 9.10 is there because we never got the docs updated after karmic
<micahg> right, but we don't want to break upgrades
<micahg> so if natty and maverick were already updated, I could bump lucid
<charlie-tca> right
 * charlie-tca goes to hide again. micahg and Book_em_Dano can decide how to do it, as long as the final versions are right.
<Book_em_Dano> is it critical to change the version numbers in the changelogs?
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: no, but it just confuses people when they see a version 9.10 for karmic and up
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: did you get the 9.10.2 fixes in for lucid as well?
<Book_em_Dano> I put the fixes for 9.10.2 (maverick version) in lp:xubuntu-docs/maverick, is that what you're asking?
<micahg> no, are the appropriate ones in xubuntu-docs/lucid as well?
<Book_em_Dano> All of the fixes pertinent to Xubuntu 10.04 are in lp:xubuntu-docs/lucid
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: great, thanks
<Book_em_Dano> but in terms of packaging, do the version numbers come from the changelogs or elsewhere?
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: changelogs
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: uploaded and merge proposed with changelog fixes
#xubuntu-devel 2011-01-22
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: We now have the ubuntu slide show in the installation, instead of Xubuntu slide show
<charlie-tca> oops
<charlie-tca> maybe not, mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> seems that slideshow is for the release notes
<charlie-tca> our desktop images both fail to install today
#xubuntu-devel 2012-01-16
<pleia2> boo, no updates to the wp ticket yet
<Unit193> They be slow...
<Unit193> Woops, this is -devel
<mr_pouit> micahg: thanks for the orage sync, I guess I missed the testing migration mail ;-)
<micahg> mr_pouit: I think it just migrated last night
<ochosi> micahg: hm, do you know why the work-item for the white tb-icons disappeared from greybird-fixes?
<micahg> it's a bug in thunderbird?
<ochosi> oh, sry, i just saw it was moved
<olbi> ochosi, hello, I have some problems with owner in Xubuntu 11.10 :)
<ochosi> olbi: what exactly to do you mean?
<knome> ochosi, i removed that from greybird* since that was in appearance misc
<ochosi> knome: yeah, makes more sense there
<olbi> ochosi, after installation, updating, adding some repos and installing programs, owner of dir /home/owner/.local/share change to root
<knome> yeah, and we don't need both bug + work item :)
<ochosi> olbi: hm, dunno why that is, never happened to me. chown it back?
<olbi> i change it manually
<olbi> but dont know why it makes
<olbi> and what it did
<ochosi> you mean it happens frequently?
<olbi> yes
<olbi> it was my second time
<ochosi> hm, no clue tbh :)
<ochosi> any more hints when it changes?
<olbi> dont know yet, but I check it now by installing new and doing same things like before
<ochosi> k, well if it happens again it sounds like you should file a bugreport
<olbi> try to figure what makes it, are there any logs of that activities?
<ochosi> not sure
<mr_pouit> "adding some repos and installing programs" < if you mean unofficial repos, then that's probably the reason
<olbi> I added medibuntu :D
<olbi> and only that with ubuntu in name
#xubuntu-devel 2012-01-17
<scott-work> it looks like REVU is still down :(   i want to get the -lowlatency kernel into it :|
<astraljava> Probably you meant to say this on our channel, but anyway, I asked for you on #-motu.
<scott-work> doh!
<astraljava> Hey do you guys have an app that would work as a front-end to gmail calendar? Or can you make orage to do that, somehow?
<micahg> astraljava: xul-ext-lightning?
<astraljava> micahg: Thanks!
<astraljava> $ sudo apt-get install xul-ext-lightning
<astraljava> Suggested packages: latex-xft-fonts
<astraljava> $ apt-cache show latex-xft-fonts
<astraljava> N: Can't select versions from package 'latex-xft-fonts' as it is purely virtual
<astraljava> N: No packages found
<micahg> astraljava: ah, we might have to remove that
<astraljava> micahg: Yep.
<micahg> astraljava: can you file a bug to track it please?
<astraljava> micahg: Yes of course.
<micahg> thanks
<micahg> madnick: you have a webkit greeter in precise: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/lightdm-webkit-greeter/0.1.2-0ubuntu1
<micahg> although I'd still prefer a GTK one...
<astraljava> micahg: bug #917743
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917743 in lightning-extension (Ubuntu) "xul-ext-lightning suggests a missing package 'latex-xft-fonts'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917743
<astraljava> Has anyone actually managed to change T-bird opening links to something else than F-fox?
<micahg> does that still not work?
<micahg> I thought we fixed preferred applications setting the default in gsettinsg
<micahg> *gsettings
<astraljava> micahg: At least I am not sure how it was supposed to work. Just adding x-www-browser in config editor wasn't enough. Turning warnings on finally gave me the chance to change it, though.
<micahg> astraljava: x-www-browser is deprecated
<astraljava> micahg: Hmm? It is available in update-alternatives, and is linked to /etc/alternatives/x-www-browser. What will replace it, then?
<micahg> the browser preference in the DE
<astraljava> micahg: Ahh... gotcha. It just doesn't seem to stick on this one.
<micahg> which might be a bug in it
<astraljava> Could be. I just never recall whether I had changed it or not when I rebooted. Now I changed it, so I will try to remember and check it after I need a reboot.
<micahg> astraljava: please file a bug against xfce4-settings-manager
<micahg> if it doesn't work that is :)
<astraljava> micahg: I will, after I verify that.
<micahg> thanks
<astraljava> Bah, no 24h view. :)
<micahg> hmm, there should be a setting for that
<astraljava> micahg: Let me know how to find it, if you can. I think I browsed through all the settings. Author is probably british/american, though. :)
<micahg> indeed :(, certainly worth a wishlist request
<astraljava> I'll see if I get _that_ bothered. :)
 * micahg cries: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-January/008115.html
<knome> exact reason?
<knome> the schedule, or the new version numbering?
<micahg> version numbering, we figured the schedule was hopeless
<knome> heh
<knome> i think it's a bit awkward too
<knome> but hey, it's their projecct
<knome> -c
<knome> (and they host the shimmer project site, so ssshhh)
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> oh lord
<knome> hehe
<knome> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> but you read the release-date in the blog-post by sarts, no? ^^
<astraljava> Hey, it said 1st of April. It's an April Fools, right?
<ochosi> hey knome 
<micahg> hmm...maybe :)
<knome> right, but it's not april 1 NOW
<astraljava> Oh, dangit.
<ochosi> knome: yes, but this is an even not so subtle hint to irony/sarcasm
<knome> :P
<micahg> this sounds like an april fools joke though
<ochosi> well it is
<knome> maybe they've just backed themselves up
<knome> "if people hate it, let's just call it april fools" :P
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> yeah, i think that the versioning scheme discussion really got out of hand
<knome> mmh
<ochosi> so stephan's reaction was really understandable (and really funny if you followed the discussion)
<knome> any reasonable packaging systems know that 4.10 > 4.8 anyway
<knome> haven't really followed it
<micahg> ochosi: where was the discussion?
<ochosi> #xfce-dev
<ochosi> actually it also took place on the ml a while ago iirc
<astraljava> "Olivier Fourdan argued [...], nobody uses the hexadecimal system for version-numbers, that is silly." - I'm sure Olivier is happy now. 
<micahg> astraljava: no, just destruct sequences
<astraljava> On another note, what to do with a CD that I want to rip (no warez!), the first track of which is shown to being 38.4MB on the disk, but when copied to hard drive, is suddenly 58.3MB? No ripper software seems to handle this correctly.
<ochosi> astraljava: maybe a problem with the drive?
<astraljava> The CD in question is Mastodon - Crack the Skye, if it makes a difference.
<ochosi> (or an old cd?)
<astraljava> ochosi: Nope, neither.
<knome> astraljava, did you try CLI tools?
<astraljava> I've just ripped tens of CDs, and all the others were just fine. And it's just come out of the wrappers.
<knome> i've had good results with those in the hard cases
<astraljava> knome: I did not.
<astraljava> knome: What would you suggest?
<astraljava> abcde?
<knome> that, or cdparanoia
<astraljava> I'm beginning to think this is the CD that was mentioned a while back, having some hidden music before the TOC pointing to the beginning of the disc.
<knome> :)
<astraljava> You know, some of the older cd players were capable of "rewinding" past 0:00.
<knome> huh.
<knome> you know, the tangent cd player can't play all of the "copy-controlled", broken discs :/
<knome> that sucks
<knome> the discs suck
<knome> i'd throw them in the river, but there is no river here and i also paid some money for them
<astraljava> River Vantaa?
<knome> too far
 * knome is in southern haga
<astraljava> But they're discs, if you spin them correctly they will fly miles. :D
<knome> lol. no, won't work out
<knome> too far
<astraljava> "The seven songs on Crack the Skye stretch over about 50 minutes, an indulgent track-length average for any band not named Opeth."
<knome> hah.
#xubuntu-devel 2012-01-18
<astraljava> *whoops* session manager doesn't recall workspaces. :-/
<astraljava> micahg: Well now it did recall my chosen browser, so no bug report necessary. I have no idea what I've done previously, cause I'm sure I've selected it prior to this. *shrug*
<astraljava> Hmm... the desktop machine had no problems whatsoever with the aforementioned CD. Weird.
<ochosi> micahg: ping (about gmusicbrowser)
<astraljava> Well, there you have it, then. /me ^5's ochosi
<ochosi> astraljava: ?
<astraljava> http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2012-January/029524.html
<ochosi> yeah, actually that was pretty clear from the start (at least for me)
<astraljava> Sure, but we were the ones who suggested as much in here. :)
<micahg> ochosi: what about it?
<ochosi> micahg: there were a few bugreports lately that might be interesting for us (one related to mpris2), i talked to squentin today and we fixed feb 1st as release date for the next version
<ochosi> micahg: is that early enough to get it in precise?
<micahg> ochosi: huh?, I thought we were in sync with Debain
<micahg> *Debian
<ochosi> yes, but since there wasn't a release since those bugs reported on lp were tackled debian doesn't have the patches (unless it packages directly from git)
<micahg> any chance of a release soon?
<micahg> alessio would sponsor an update in Debian
<ochosi> i talked to squentin today and we fixed feb 1st as release date for the next version
<ochosi> that's why i asked whether it's early enough (to get it through debian)
<micahg> sounds fine, I'll see about getting it into Debian right after that (I'll might also sync from unstable after a few days since we're close to feature freeze)
<ochosi> ok, nice
<ochosi> so i'll try to get everything into order until then so that we can drop any modifications from gmb in xubuntu and only ship a default config file
<micahg> wfm, Debian seems to take all our fixes
<knome> :)
<hobgoblin> hello - just thought I'd pop in and say well done - first time in 3 years I've actually had any sort of upgrade work (a bad one once made me leave upgrading alone) - this has worked twice for me on a laptop and a pc - both causing me no issues at all - thanks
<cpatrick008> i was wondering if 12.04 would have xfce 4.10 in the final release
<micahg> cpatrick008: highly unlikely
<cpatrick008> ok thanks
<Unit193> hobgoblin was talking about 11.10 > 12.04
#xubuntu-devel 2012-01-19
<falktx> hey there, I have a question
<falktx> which theme is xubuntu planing to use for 12.04?
<falktx> I'm asking because of gtk2/gtk3 support, most of gtk2 themes don't support gtk3 yet
<falktx> ubuntu has now some apps in gtk3 (zenity, update-manager, etc) that will look *terrible* when a theme doesn't support gtk3
<baizon> falktx: xfce isnt supporting gtk3 yet
<falktx> baizon: yes, but we can still have a theme that supports it
<baizon> indeed
<falktx> baizon: what is the default xubuntu theme?
<falktx> I suspect is a custom one made for xubuntu/xfce only?
<baizon> dont know, using greybird
<baizon> http://xfce-look.org/content/show.php/Greybird?content=142534&PHPSESSID=cba45c8ae5d063cfd44c8405188ad6c3
<falktx> ah, so there is work for gtk3
<falktx> is this in the repos yet?
<baizon> falktx: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/01/xubuntu-1104-to-get-new-default-theme.html
<ochosi> falktx: greybird was already ported to gtk3 for 11.10
<ochosi> falktx: but it has been improved quite a bit since then â you can test it via the github-repo: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird
<ochosi> falktx: also: bluebird will most likely be ported to gtk3 and a lot of gtk2-only themes won't be installed by default in 12.04
<ochosi> baizon: fwiw, what you linked to is not the official version of greybird (the official one is hosted on github)
<falktx> cool
<ochosi> yw :)
<ochosi> micahg: just tested gmusicbrowser's upstream package (supposedly 1.1.9 after release) again and i think we can simply use that and drop all shimmer-modifications (they've been worked into the upstream version by now). so all we need to do is ship a gmbrc.default file in xubuntu-settings (i guess) and we're set for precise
<micahg> ok
<ochosi> btw, any news on the tb-issue?
 * ochosi likes bugging micahg 
<micahg> nope
<ochosi> have you submitted an upstream bugreport yet?
<micahg> nope on my list, will try to do it this weekend
<ochosi> so i have to keep bugging you? :p
<micahg> yeah
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> madnick: will we also "inherit" that feature automatically? http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/lightdm-wallpaper-switching-lands-in-precise/
<madnick> not automatically no
<ochosi> i mean it's pretty much bling, but otoh it also gives you an easy way to distinguish users (other than focussing on avatars or names)
<madnick> well, currently there is a config file, but im not sure that xfce uses the same mechanisms as gnome for keeping that data either
<madnick> but tbh i have not read about this before
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> well, as i said, it's mostly just bling
<madnick> btw, i need to collect some information to send to the ML
<madnick> but since ive not been home most of the week i dont know what to say
<madnick> knome: do you have any information?
<ochosi> information on what?
<madnick> what happened during the week, and what are the current issues
<madnick> and what can effect other teams
<madnick> and stuff like that :P
<ochosi> hm, but what do you mean what happened, happened where?
<ochosi> in ubuntu?
<ochosi> or in xubuntu?
<madnick> xubuntu
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> well if you want to send some information/update you can say that we have our own icon-theme now (a fork of elementary)
<ochosi> (i'd have announced that at the next team meeting anyway)
<madnick> :)
<ochosi> bbl
<knome> madnick, nothing technical, i think
<madnick> knome: do you know where i can find the templete for the email?
<knome> madnick, hmmh
<knome> madnick, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/Agenda/TeamTemplate
<ochosi> hey knome 
<knome> hey
<knome> finally actually @pc :)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-01-20
<scott-work> can anyone give guidance to helping me get some default and sane jack settings placed in the user's /home directory during installation?
<scott-work> specifically, i only need the mechanics of installing the file during installation; the sane defaults have already been defined
<mr_pouit> scott-work: drop a dotfile in /etc/skel ? (it would probably be better if the app had supported the dxg base dir spec though)
<mr_pouit> micahg: mmh, I think your images might be broken by lightdm ;>
<mr_pouit> s/your/our/, ha
<scott-work> mr_pouit: is it really as easy as that?
<scott-work> mr_pouit: i thought someone had told me that moderating a user's home directory was somewhat verboten
<scott-work> and i figured there were more hoops to jump through
<scott-work> perhaps this was post installation
<scott-work> i.e. a package that had a reasonable chance of installation after the OS install that would moderate the user's home directory
<mr_pouit> micahg: Bug #918401 for lubuntu, maybe we have that too (precise-desktop-amd64.manifest shows too many unity-* things here)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 918401 in lubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Unity-greeter installed by default on Lubuntu, crashing on start" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/918401
<mr_pouit> scott-work: it's just used at user creation time afaik
<scott-work> mr_pouit: i don't know if this will help but astraljava found out that mousetweeks was bringing in unity stuff as well
<scott-work> just look at the note in our seeds; apparently mousetweaks brings in gnome-session which then pulls in a bunch of unity packages
<scott-work> s/just look/just looked
<scott-work> not sure if that is helpful
<scott-work> mr_pouit: but thank you for the information about /etc/skel :)
<mr_pouit> scott-work: huhu, we don't ship mousetweaks by default :P
<mr_pouit> micahg: erf, nevermind, I was looking at the ubuntu image >.>  Ours seem fine ;-)
<scott-work> oh, i thought that was brought in from the xubuntu seeds, sorry
<knome> madnick, going to send the mail to the release ML? :)
<knome> bbl->
<madnick> knome: we already had the meeting
<knome> madnick, okay
#xubuntu-devel 2012-01-21
<pleia2> knome: I see they pushed the update, let me know when I should go in to "make lists of things we need fixed for release" mode
<knome> pleia2, yeah, forgot to mention :)
<knome> i think it's good time now
<pleia2> ok, I'll take a look later
<knome> sure, no hurry
<knome> umm
<knome> hmm
<knome> ah, right
<knome> huh
<knome> lol
<knome> i thought i forgot something
<knome> but i didn't
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> in a "customizing unity" talk now
<knome> ;)
<pleia2> interesting to learn how the others live
<knome> actually, i think we need ONE MORE update
<knome> but yeah, i'll handle that
<knome> i'll try to get darren to work on that as soon as i've done the things i need to
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> madnick, i'm going to be available at 20utc or so...
<madnick> knome: okay
<madnick> so 2 hours from now?
 * madnick has forgotten UTC time
<knome> yeah
<knome> that or a bit later
<madnick> okay
<knome> madnick, actually 20utc is two hours from NOW :P
<knome> madnick, but i might miss that too
<knome> bbl->
<knome> madnick, 
<madnick> knome: 
<knome> if you're ready, we can start
<knome> just start throwing questions you have
<madnick> knome: i need to collect landury before 10
<madnick> but in like 20?
<madnick> 15-20?
<knome> a-ha
<knome> sure
<madnick> knome: okay
<madnick> i am done :)
<astraljava> Before you even got started.
<madnick> lol
<knome> madnick, just a sec
<knome> madnick, go ahead :)
<madnick> well
<madnick> hm :P
<madnick> Basically im wondering about accessability mostly
<madnick> and if you an do the CSS for the theme
<knome> that you should go through with charlie
<knome> yes, what do you need?
<madnick> ochosi will know better about the css need 
<knome> a-ha.. ochosi!
<madnick> He has worked out most of the theme
<knome> so it is html?
<knome> or html-like
<madnick> yes
<knome> which? :P
<madnick> HTML
<knome> ok
<madnick> i made the greeter as a GTK/Webkit greeter
<knome> so is there something you need from me to be able to close the work items
<madnick> with a "lib" accessable to the theme
<knome> or are they all pending on the css? :P
<madnick> yes
<madnick> Plymouth
<knome> okay
<madnick> No, I will get to closing work items on the greeter asap
<knome> okay, great
<knome> so what's up with plymouth?
<madnick> Well, you wanted to make a mastermind game, which I could get too, but you also had some bugs in the current greeter
<madnick> erhm
<madnick> theme
<madnick> that you wanted adjusted
<knome> the mastermind clone should be done only if we have time
<madnick> and i recall it being the onliner for interrupting the FSCK
<madnick> okay
<madnick> well, i suppose i could go ahead and clear some work items
<knome> right :)
<knome> sounds good
<knome> onliner?
<madnick> one liner
<madnick> it appears only on 1 line
<madnick> even tho the info is 2 lines
<knome> i don't think i completely get it, but should i?
<knome> :)
<madnick> no :)
<knome> heh, good
<knome> so, it's the css for lightdm
<knome> what else?
<knome> naturally, the wallpaper, but yeah
<madnick> yeah
<madnick> :P
<madnick> but that is pretty much it
<knome> okay
<knome> i'll get together with ochosi on that
<madnick> knome: i updated everything that is done
<knome> great!
<knome> we'll see the status change in few hours
<madnick> :)
<knome> i think we are progressing pretty well
<knome> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-xubuntu.html
<knome> at least there isn't that much that is blocked anymore
<knome> mr_pouit, ?
<knome> madnick, are the lightdm settings gui strings final (for translators)?
<madnick> knome: pretty much, there is some finetuning
<madnick> that i need to do
<knome> okay
<knome> if you need help with that, maybe ping some native english-speakers, like pleia2 
<madnick> knome: and enabling of translation
<knome> mm-hmm
<madnick> because the widgets can be translated but it needs enabling .P
<knome> of course
<knome> we could try to do that ASAP, so we're not tight on translating time
<madnick> yup
<madnick> i will get to it, i just need to get a precise image on this install
<madnick> and setup a testing environment and such
<knome> sure
<knome> no hurry really
<knome> yet
<knome> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-01-22
<knome> GridCube, ?
<GridCube> uhm?
<knome> how's testing going?
<GridCube> not going really, sorry 
<knome> okay, np
<GridCube> :(
<knome> do you think you'd have some time in the future?
<GridCube> i will ah start again this week
<knome> i'd specifically like to know if we need to work on maybe-ubiquity
<knome> mostly the artwork, but otherwise too
<GridCube> so you need mostly live sessions
<knome> yeah, and it doesn't matter which architecture etc you're doing
<GridCube> ok
<knome> i'd just like to know how it looks, if we need to address any artwork issues there
<knome> other issues too of course, but i believe those are reported anyway :)
<GridCube> okay will pay attention to that
<GridCube> :)
<knome> thanks
<knome> Unit193, you been testing?
<Unit193> knome: Not as much as I'd like, but I've been avoiding maybe-ubiquity too :P
<knome> lol
<Unit193> Going to actually hit a few now
<knome> okay
<knome> okay
<knome> :)
<Unit193> I take it I can't avoid that?
<knome> you shouldn't be able i think
<knome> i mean technically with a live cd that shouldn't be possible
<knome> if something is wrong or looks weird, screenshots help a lot
<Unit193> If I have the video set lower...
<Unit193> I looked, I saw, it looked funny :P
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/precise_wall/brainstorm-20120122-01-splatstars.png
<knome> how does that look?
<knome> anyway, i'm off to sleep
<knome> need to vote tomorrow in the presidential elections
<knome> ->
<Unit193> And I was about6 to link to a image...
<Unit193> knome: Don't drag the window :P  http://imagebin.org/194815
<GridCube> knome, i don't like it
<GridCube> the splash thing looks something like for a childrens OS
<olbi> it looks good
<olbi> I want help translate ubiquity because last time it wans't all complete for my lang
<knome> astraljava, so how well are you aware of the ubiquity installation progress?
<knome> i mean, isn't ubuntu studio giving you the possibility to install a few different "sets" of applications too?
<astraljava> knome: Not that well, yet. It's my task, though, at the moment, so I'm looking into it.
<knome> astraljava, mm-hmm. :)
<levlazinskiy> Hello everyone
<GridCube> sup?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-01-15
<ochosi> that's kinda fun to watch, and even a bit informing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vjzmCi_Cko
<micahg> knome: precise dailies are oversized, I assume we want 12.04.2 CD size?
<knome> micahg, sure
#xubuntu-devel 2013-01-17
<pleia2> CC meeting where we'd like to meet up with some xubuntu folks over in #ubuntu-meeting in ~25 minutes
<knome_> ough
<knome_> thanks for the heads up.
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi, micahg, mr_pouit, ...
<knome> ^ 
<knome> zequence, studio too ^
<micahg> umm...almost forgot
<knome> :)
<knome> me too... i was online by accident
<pleia2> I probably should have sent a reminder email yesterday or something
<maddernick> i thought it was a release meeting :D
<pleia2> knome: need to nudge someone to send testing instructions (what shiny new thing should we test this week?) to the list
<pleia2> I should probably do some testing, but don't have time to hunt people down to figure out what needs to be tested ;)
<knome> i'm going to send an email
<knome> i've already gathered a list, gotten emails from sean and stuff
<knome> so it's pending on my todo
<pleia2> great
<pleia2> was it parole that also could use soem testing?
<knome> that too, yep
<pleia2> knowing what to test it on (quantal? raring?) and quick instructions for where the ppa is (or is it included in raring?) would be good
<knome> definitely.
<knome> i'll try to write instructions anybody can follow
<knome> we probably want to test things on raring, but i don't think it hurts to test in quantal too
<bluesabre_> did I miss the meeting already
<bluesabre_> ?
<knome> nope, we're still kind of on
<knome> 19:53  jono: it will be early May and in Oakland
<knome> re: the next uds
<ochosi> knome: sounds like i'm not gonna make it there :)
<Unit193> Anything major in that meeting with the CC?
<ochosi> i arrived too late, so hopefully someone else will know :p
<knome> Unit193, no, not really. just a check-in how things are going
#xubuntu-devel 2013-01-18
<ScottL> knome, i wanted to thank you again for your support in the community council meeting
<knome> bluesabre, is the new xfce4-settings in raring, or do we need some ppa/git magic for that too?
<knome> bluesabre, do you realize how much libs people need to install in order to be able to build parole?
 * astraljava checks to see whether he has bluesabre on ignore.
<knome> WOOT
<knome> "configuration finished"
<knome> oh, making failed
<knome> what a surprise
<bluesabre> knome, we're using *buntu
<bluesabre> sudo apt-get build-dep parole
<bluesabre> sudo apt-get install gtk-doc-tools
<knome> bluesabre, you serious that works? :P
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> ideally
<bluesabre> if not
 * bluesabre hides
<knome> well THANKS
<knome> ;)
<bluesabre> why did the make fail?
<knome> i lacked some dependencies, though configuring didn't whine about that
<bluesabre> I should probably fix that or something
<knome> it was about libnotify
<knome> ok, now it built
<knome> what about the warnings about some missing .m4 file and missing config.sub/.guess?
<knome> where do we have the bin or should one 'make install' ?
<bluesabre> after make, the bin is in src/parole
<bluesabre> or make install is good too
<knome> i'd rather not do that
<knome> if not necessary
<bluesabre> if you don't do the make install, I think it looks in the wrong place for the background image/icons
<bluesabre> but everything else should work
<knome> right
<knome> ha!!!
<knome> sudo apt-get build-dep catfish didn't install all dependencies
<bluesabre> :'(
<knome> python-distutils-extra is lacking
<knome> but it's very clearly indicated
<bluesabre> yeah, the experimental branch uses quickly
<bluesabre> sudo apt-get install quickly should get everything
<bluesabre> I need to document more
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> well it definitely seems to get *everything*
<knome> would it install the aforementioned package as well?
<knome> "sudo apt-get install python-distutils-extra quickly" looks a bit funny
<knome> "sudo apt-get remove vlc slowly"
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> yeah quickly should pull in the distutils stuff
<knome> setup.py is cranky.
<knome> looks like i need zeitgeist
<knome> that's not installed either
<knome> so... what should i do with the catfish sources?
<knome> or does one need to build it?
<bluesabre> go into the directory and do 'quickly run' or 'bin/catfish'
<knome> oh, ok
<knome> problems ahead
<knome> couldn't connet to accessibility bus
<knome> +c
<knome> do i even need to install catfish build-deps then?
<knome> or python-zeitgeist
<bluesabre> probably not
<bluesabre> python-zeitgeist is optional
<knome> anyway, catfish isn't running for me
<bluesabre> :(
<knome> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1544817/
<bluesabre> thanks knome, you found a bug which lead me to a fix  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alacarte/+bug/1086369
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1086369 in alacarte (Ubuntu) "alacarte crashed with ImportError in /usr/share/alacarte/Alacarte/util.py : cannot import name GError" [Medium,Triaged]
<knome> heh :)
<knome> np
<knome> so will you fix the repository?
<bluesabre> yup, just a sec
<knome> yup, np
<bluesabre> pushed
<knome> ok, it runs now
<bluesabre> yay!
<knome> is there something specific you want people to test?
<bluesabre> make sure all files are found, it doesn't crash, filters work, right-click menu items work (though I just found a bug where its not getting permissions correctly for deleting)
<bluesabre> I guess its also good to make sure the program is responsive
<bluesabre> previously, it would lock up a lot for a long time, that should now be mostly fixed
<knome> oki
<knome> i think i'll leave the rest for later
<knome> i'm thinking we should simply create testcases for these
<knome> because the instructions are loooong
<bluesabre> instructions?
<bluesabre> sudo apt-get install quickly
<knome> and bzr branch lp:...
<bluesabre> bzr branch lp:catfish-search/experimental
<knome> i didn't say they are like novel long
<bluesabre> lol
<knome> but they pile up when you have several of them
<bluesabre> true
<knome> and then somebody has the other code in git, the other in bzr, and the third app in a ppa
<knome> O:)
<bluesabre> fair enough
<bluesabre> knome, pushed some fixes for catfish since you motivated me
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> bbl
<knome> hehe, good
<mr_pouit> knome: you know that parole is in the xfce-4.12 ppa (precise and quantal)
<knome> mr_pouit, i don't.
<mr_pouit> (I mean, if you're not happy building it from source :P)
<knome> now i do.
<knome> it's not about me being happy or not
<knome> it's for the testers
<knome> what about the latest catfish then? any chances getting that in a ppa too?
<knome> the more we can get into ppa's, the better..
<mr_pouit> in the 4.12 ppa you have: the new exo/thunar/parole/mousepad/tumbler/xfce4-terminal releases
<mr_pouit> and the latest dev release of xfce4-settings
<knome> but those aren't going to be in R, are they?
<mr_pouit> they are already in the r archive
<knome> aha
<mr_pouit> (except xfce4-settings)
<knome> bbl.
<bluesabre> I'll get the new catfish into a ppa this weekend, knome
<bluesabre> if that makes it easier on everyone
#xubuntu-devel 2013-01-20
<micahg> gah, 1.5MB larger....
<knome> mmh
<knome> sleepy time!
<knome> ->
 * micahg sees ISOs ballooning, time to drop more stuff
<knome> micahg, hurrr
<knome> micahg, any ideas of the cause?
 * kurapika is away: Je suis pu lÃ  >.<
<knome> kurapika, please don't use public away messages. thanks!
<knome> maddernick, btw, how's the uploading your code for plymouth going?
<knome> maddernick, you need anything from us before you do that?
<maddernick> knome: it is uploaded
<maddernick> i did it around new years iirc, but i do need the new spinner
<maddernick> well i dont "need" it, but if i got it i would be done to the visual extent i suppose, i do need measurements regardless
<knome> it should be the same size you received
<knome> not done yet though
<knome> can you point ochosi to your branch?
<maddernick> i did :P
<knome> can you do it again? i suppose he's lost the link :P
<maddernick> oh okay
<knome> and sorry for asking again :P
<knome> i've been only partly monitoring the process so i don't know all the details
<knome> i just heard he's waiting for some code somewhere :P
<maddernick> knome: i probably need to allow him to push or something, im not sure how to do that
<maddernick> https://code.launchpad.net/~dr-madnick/+junk/trunk
<knome> ochosi, ^
<maddernick> also this is the "pulsating" one
<maddernick> the spinner code is acctually present in this
<maddernick> but commented out
<knome> mmh, that's good
<ochosi> well what we need is a merge-request which would best be done by maddernick beacuse itmahould include a changelog
<ochosi> unless mr_pouit says otherwise
<maddernick> ochosi: just tell me when
#xubuntu-devel 2014-01-13
<ochosi> hm, actually, i guess not...
<ochosi> if i understand this correctly, even multiple monitors are handled as one display
<ochosi> (which contains several screens on the next level)
<ochosi> but anyway, would be good if more ppl can test this
<ochosi> brainwash: do you know by any chance what xscreensaver's timeout is on the lockscreen?
<ochosi> i vaguely remember it being very low
<ochosi> something like 20secs or so
<ochosi> but i haven't used it in so long...
<brainwash> yes, really low
<brainwash> it also shows an indicators
<ochosi> i think i'd set it to something >=30
<brainwash> indicator
<ochosi> yeah, that countdown seems like overkill
<brainwash> 30 should be fine
<ochosi> especially as you have to reset it with each time the idle-time gets reset
<brainwash> or even 60
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i was thinking 60
<ochosi> but maybe 30 is enough
<brainwash> but 10min is just way too long
<brainwash> so light-locker needs to 'lock' the session on resume instead of requesting 'switch-to-greeter'
<brainwash> or?
<brainwash> these are the lightdm commands
<brainwash> and only 'lock' sets the lock_hint
<brainwash> I'll put that on my todo list and test it
<ochosi> so, i do retrieve and save the values correctly
<ochosi> but somehow resetting them when the greeter exits doesn't seem to work
<ochosi> the new session on VT8 still inherits those blank settings
<ochosi> hope i can figure that one out quickly
<ochosi> i have to say i'm stumped
<ochosi> no idea why resetting the values at the end doesn't work
<ochosi> in case any of you feel like looking at whether i made an obvious mistake or something... http://dpaste.com/1548435/
<bluesabre> there is finally a good python gi resource, http://lazka.github.io/pgi-docs/index.html
<ochosi> Noskcaj: as this might be of interest to you as well, i updated xubuntu_set-accountsservice-user-bg.patch to work with xfdesktop4.11
<ochosi> i only have a git diff here now, but if you can update whatever is proposed for trusty, that'd be nice: http://dpaste.com/1548800/
<Noskcaj> ok. I should be able to work on it tomorrow, since corsac doesn't seem to have time to upload
<ochosi> this patch is ubuntu-specific anyway
<ochosi> so it won't go anywhere else
<Noskcaj> ok
<ochosi> it would be nice if one of you ppl who know packaging a little could update the patch somewhere so it doesn't get lost
<ochosi> not sure how to propose changes to something that's not a branch...
<elfy> Noskcaj: did you see the comment on lderan's MP re the xubuntu_autopilot_tests directory
<Noskcaj> elfy, yeah. I'll add that to my now worryingly large list of stuff for tomorrow
<Noskcaj> ochosi, email it to me, i'll put it in use soon
<ochosi> Noskcaj: sent
<Noskcaj> ty
<ochosi> yw
<Noskcaj> tomorrow: autopilot, xfce 4.11, fix a heap of FTBFSes i made, make gambc work, do ubuntu gnome stuff, convince parents to let me meet random internet person for keysigning
<Noskcaj> And watch whatever tv shows come up on the torrents tonight
<ochosi> sounds like a full, but nice day :)
<ochosi> brainwash: i thought about the suspending a bit, and no, i don't think it should set the lock_hint. if you wake your laptop up from suspend, you want to obviously *do* something with it, so blanking the screen all the time seems more annoying than helpful
<brainwash> ochosi: you got 30/60sec time to unlock it :P
<ochosi> that doesn't mean it makes sense
<ochosi> in that respect you could say that the greeter should *always* set the timeout to that
<brainwash> xscreensaver does it this way
<ochosi> yeah, but we also don't take advice on how the lockscreen should look from xscreensaver, we don't wanna copy it  really ;)
<brainwash> mmh, leave it blank initially then?
<ochosi> nah, that's confusing
<ochosi> if you open your laptop-lid after suspending and your display remains blank, that's not very intuitive
<brainwash> you move the mouse then, everyone would do that
<elfy> I'd immediately press the power button assuming it had not suspended
<brainwash> ok, so no changes needed here
<cub> I agree, I don't want anything to happen until I press a key or move the mouse
<ochosi> elfy: yup, i think you wouldn't be the only one
<ochosi> brainwash: anyway, i still have to figure out a way to reset the screensaver values
<rowboatnick> I would rather want: no screensaver, no power saving
<brainwash> a laptop without any LEDs to indicate the power status? :D
<elfy> I've got one of those as soon as I unplug it from the wall ... 
<brainwash> the idea is to make this stuff consistent and enjoyable for most users
<elfy> I'd guess most would assume that a blank screen meant it'd not suspended 
<elfy> most users aren't the half a dozen that might comment in here :)
<brainwash> changing the behavior via config would be the best solution
<slickymaster> morning all
<ochosi> morning
<knome> hey slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi ochosi 
<slickymaster> hey knome 
<slickymaster> ochosi, eric_the_idiot confirmed that everything is right with http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs
<ochosi> slickymaster: yup, and a patch for the docs-versioning in docs.xfce is in progress (submitted, about to be reviewed and hopefully applied)
<ochosi> so as soon as that is done, we can move stuff over to a xfdesktop/4.12/start page
<ochosi> but i'd prefer to wait for these things to settle first
<slickymaster> ochosi: there's still the multi monitor part left to be done, that you were supposed to take care of
<ochosi> yeah, sorry, been busy with the greeter all weekend
<ochosi> but i haven't forgotten about it
<slickymaster> ochosi: yeah, we only have a pair of hands ;)
<ochosi> yeah, and usually the days only have 24hrs...
<Unit193> knome: Looked at the CC website, license isn't translated.
<knome> Unit193, yep
<ochosi> knome: i think i'll postpone my packageset uploader workitem from -community for >14.04
<ochosi> too many other things that need focus this cycle
<knome> ochosi, i was thinking you would
<Unit193> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda is in progress, is blues?
<brainwash> ochosi: I can confirm that the timeout does not get restored to its default value
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, i know, i have to find another sensible place to reset the value (ideally shortly before the greeter exits, but as that doesn't seem to work i'm considering when the user gets changed to something other than the one with the open session in the combobox)
<ochosi> generally speaking, setting/resetting the value works, just not in the place/time i wanted it to
<knome> slickymaster, see http://xstaging.lallinaho.fi/feature-tour/ for some more styles i built specifically for the tour and similar pages :)
<slickymaster> give me  sec
<knome> ochosi, fancy the colors? ^
<slickymaster> knome: my favorite is the first one 
<slickymaster> I think that it integrates better into the layout of the entire site, is not as jarring as the others
<slickymaster> even though I find the second one very appealing
<knome> slickymaster, well the point of the colors is to highlight stuff ;)
<knome> not necessarily use them as i've used them now
<knome> (so could have "normal" sections of text in between)
<knome> or just use one per page
<knome> or two
<ochosi> knome: not bad! i think i even like the pink one
<knome> yeah, i replaced the orange one with that
<knome> that just works so much better with the blues of the site
<ochosi> wrt black <code>-bg-bubbles, i'd go for a lighter style
<slickymaster> IMO, the colors on the third and forth are too vibrating
<ochosi> at least on my laptop monitor, that bubble is not really visible
<knome> ochosi, but the text is still clearly standing out, so what's the problem? :)
<slickymaster> correction, knome, on the fourth and fifth
<slickymaster> and the black one is to heavy
<knome> ochosi, ^ your opinion on that?
<ochosi> knome: no problem, i just think it might look nicer and more consistent if the bubbles were visible ;)
<ochosi> i personally like the vibrant style
<ochosi> since they won't be overused as you said, they can kick some butt visually imo
<knome> ochosi, lighter bg for code block especially on the black highlight looks poop :(
<ochosi> mkay
<ochosi> just the diff between code and link isn't as clear anymore
<ochosi> another way to say i like the bubbles ;)
<knome> right, that's a fair point
<slickymaster> hmmm am I being too sober?
<ochosi> slickymaster: i think it'll look different if there's only one of these banners on a page
<ochosi> right now, it's quite a color-collision (although frankly, i even like that, so i guess knome did a good job on choosing colors :))
<slickymaster> ochosi: I see your point, but even being so, isn't pink a bit too clashy?
<ochosi> dunno, it works with the bg and other colored elements of the page
<ochosi> i can see why we wouldn't want to use orange (ubuntu)
<slickymaster> but I do agree with you on the diff between code and link
<knome> ochosi, not that reason (at least mainly), the pink just works better with the blue colors than the orange did :)
<ochosi> mm
<knome> i can give you another example page with only one highlight block
<knome> which would you fancy? the pink?
<slickymaster> that all color clash reminds me somethings of Kandinsky 
<knome> and yes, the point was definitely to make the colors match each other ;)
<knome> http://xstaging.lallinaho.fi/about/
<knome> (see how those can be used on non-bottom-navigation pages as well!)
<knome> (not too encouraged though)
<slickymaster> well, I think I'm going to stand corrected
<slickymaster> on that page it really works well
<knome> yep
<knome> i just needed to make sure they work well even if stacked on top of each other
<knome> and that's also why we have the "white" highlight (the bottom one in the tour page)
<slickymaster> knome: can't you change the pinks order, i.e. the draker pink being the line on top and the lighter pink the body of the blockquote (assuming that it is a blockquote)
<ochosi> knome: sweet. looks really awesome
<knome> nope, that's the way they work
<knome> actually,
<knome> in the tour page, the highlighted blocks overlap each other
<knome> so the top border color depends on what comes before the block
<slickymaster> i see
<knome> which i think is a neat little feature
<slickymaster> can you show us the http://xstaging.lallinaho.fi/about/ page but with the green choice?
<slickymaster> just for comparison
<knome> sure, just a check
<knome> *sec
 * knome facepalms
<knome> actually, wait a bit longer
<knome> i need to investigate something
<slickymaster> ok
<knome> related to this :P
<elfy> I'm glad you said wait ... that green looks pink :p
<lderan> just a bit
<knome> done
<knome> ochosi, what's the status of pinging xnight on the session bug?
<ochosi> well, i tried, senza risposta so far
<knome> boo
<knome> xnox, ping-a-ling :)
<bluesabre> what have I started :D
<knome> bluesabre, was?
<slickymaster> I think the pink solution works better than the green one, knome
<bluesabre> Unit193: not been working on my application, been to busy trying to get code cranked out
<knome> slickymaster, well, they are to be used for different things
<knome> slickymaster, see how green vibrates so well with "frequent releases" and says "fresh" in the tour page :)
<slickymaster> knome: my only issue is with the way it plays it with blue
<slickymaster> but I think that it's just me
<knome> it could be worse, and the color itself could be uglier ;)
<slickymaster> yeah, no argues there :)
<lderan> to me it works better as green
<knome> that's why we have choice, yay!
<knome> :)
<slickymaster> I'm off. Lunch time ->
<jarnos> brainwash, it is sometimes odd to cope with the light-locker and the greeter: I may open the lock blindly (or kill light-locker in TTY1, but desktop is not shown thereafter, so I have to be careful that I don't  write something in irc blindly.
<jarnos> brainwash, I just don't know how much if any is the greeter's fault, as I have had blanking problems with xrandr as well.
<ochosi> brainwash: pushed the screensaver-stuff to greeter trunk, should work as expected with that
<slickymaster> I'm back <-
<knome> jjfrv8, ping me when you're around. i'll be having dinner next, but i'm available after that
<brainwash> ochosi: nice, another thing I'm wondering about right now.. the language and session selection should be hidden for logged in users, right?
<brainwash> maybe it's already the case, I cannot check it right now
<elfy> brainwash: in lock screen? 
<brainwash> yes
<elfy> all of the login options are there
<brainwash> does it make sense to change the language or session? it would affected the next normal login I guess
<brainwash> affect
<elfy> I don't know without trying and I'm not really able to atm
<brainwash> ok, so simply hide these menu entries then
<brainwash> it's a lock screen after all
<elfy> I guess so 
<brainwash> lock + "switch user" screen actually
<ochosi> brainwash: they should be displayed as inactive, which they will be as soon as i find time for that
<brainwash> ochosi: ok
<ochosi> brainwash: also, the xsetscreensaver and xforcescreensaver don't work with nouveau (which really seems to be the arch nemesis of the greeter)
<brainwash> this is odd
<ochosi> yeah, it's a standard xlib call
<ochosi> no idea what could go wrong there
<ochosi> (that, and it works with other drivers, obviously)
<brainwash> and it does work if called via xset for the current x session
<brainwash> or?
<ochosi> i dunno, haven't tried that with nouveau yet
<ochosi> i haven't been using it for long, it's only for testing the background problem
<ochosi> (which i can't reproduce now btw)
<ochosi> anyhow, please test the changes i pushed to trunk today (rev180) with intel and amd
<brainwash> sure
<jjfrv8-work> knome, are you still good for around 20utc? That would work best for me.
<knome> jjfrv8-work, yep
<ochosi> brainwash: xset settings seem to take effect, so i'm clueless
<jjfrv8-work> ok, I'll ping you then.
<knome> ok, ttyl then
 * knome is off as well
<brainwash> ochosi: add some debug prints to the greeter :)
<ochosi> for now i'll leave things as they are if it works for everything but nouveau
<ochosi> there are bigger fish to fry
<brainwash> this would also help with the general testing and could be removed later
<brainwash> ok :D
<sergio-br2> hi
<slickymaster> hey sergio-br2 
<sergio-br2> hey slickymaster
<sergio-br2> i have an issue with ibus panel plugin. Suddenly, it started to appears at xfce panel (it's annoying), then i search at "Session and Startup", and there is no entry... Is it normal?
<sergio-br2> actually, Notification Area plugin. But i don't know how ibus started to appears there
<slickymaster> elfy: you around?
<slickymaster> never mind elfy. I've sorted it out
<slickymaster> I'm off
<slickymaster> bbl ->
<jjfrv8> knome, I'm as ready as I'll every be
<jjfrv8> or ever even
<elfy> never odd then? 
<jjfrv8> well, I wouldn't say that either
<elfy> :)
<knome> jjfrv8, i'm here
<jjfrv8> me too
<knome> let me open the blueprint and other stuff and we can start
<knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/IjonEjDCPk
<knome> that's the blueprint contents
<knome> (others feel free to chime in to the discussion as well)
<jjfrv8> ready
<knome> so let's start with the whiteboard
<knome> are we anywhere with the extended developer docs?
<jjfrv8> can we get an easy one out of the way first? Is the 12.04 SRU update going to miss?
<knome> have you thought of a list of subjects we want to cover
<knome> no, it should have landed
<knome> at least it was marked as fix released
<jjfrv8> but it was broken, no?
<knome> i have no idea
<knome> i will update the work items with an item for that
<jjfrv8> last I heard skellat was stumped on how to fix it.
<knome> ok
<knome> i'll be in touch with him
<knome> so, what about the developer docs?
<jjfrv8> as for the extended developer docs, I was cooling off on that.
<jjfrv8> not feeling too good about it for this cycle anymore
<knome> i've been working on the community help wiki lately...
<jjfrv8> oh
<knome> and i'm wondering if it would be more beneficial for us to update articles there
<knome> and just create a page that has some useful links gathered
<knome> i mean, i don't know what kind of content is available
<knome> but there definitely is articles/pages on technical issues
<knome> the biggest problem with them is that they are often very specific
<jjfrv8> can you point me to them?
<jjfrv8> sometime
<knome> let me dig you an example
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<knome> that's on the team wiki
<knome> but i'm sure such pages exist
<knome> so the question probably is;
<knome> do we want to create very specific guides (which is kind of easier to do),
<knome> or do we want to find generic guides,
<knome> which are probably a bit more painful to write, but could be more useful for more people
<knome> and do not get as quickly outdated
<jjfrv8> I guess the latter
<knome> let's move on
<knome> end-user docs
<knome> have you had a chance to look at the ubuntu manual?
<jjfrv8> nope
<knome> mhm
<knome> tbh, i think our end-user docs are fairly good
<jjfrv8> I would agree with that
<knome> sooo... the what's new, tour, about and installer slideshow stuff
<jjfrv8> ja
<knome> i added this:
<knome> * Discuss how much the feature tour and installer slideshow should have in common
<jjfrv8> saw that
<knome>    * Different perspectives: Feature tour on the website tries to "sell"  the system, on the installer slideshow the user is already trying out  our product
<knome>    * Example: In tour, tell Xubuntu is customizable; in installer  slideshow, give the user examples how they can customize the system  (follow up with knome and ochosi for creating documentation how to  change the color scheme for the system easily; requires an adaptive  wallpaper)
<knome> could we get work on these started shortly?
<lderan> that sounds good
<knome> don't know if you already saw http://xstaging.lallinaho.fi/feature-tour/
<knome> (that's the staging site for the new theme to land soonish)
<jjfrv8> yeah, I saw that earlier today
<knome> we could try to prepare some of the content to make use of those new elements
<knome> and see how it all works on the website
<jjfrv8> who all knows how to do that?
<knome> i can even create accounts for the staging site as needed, if you want to test some of the things live
<knome> atm, basically me
<knome> but it's really straightforward (wysiwyg), and anybody who's ever worked with wordpress should get their head around it quickly
<knome> or even with just basic word editing
<knome> (select text, select a style from a dropdown list, save page, done)
<jjfrv8> well, I'd be willing to try but I'm not the creative type. I can write boring technical stuff but not marketing type stuff
<knome> ok, let's do a call for people on the mailing list then
<jjfrv8> ok
<knome> i guess the "about" page should be more of the "boring" type
<jjfrv8> :)
<knome> explaining ideals behind xubuntu and technical things like what's it built on
<knome> and probably something brief about what is linux and that kind of stuff for absolute beginners
<knome> do we agree on how tour/installer slideshow should be different?
<knome> or do you have further ideas?
<jjfrv8> no, I think you had that right
<knome> so, what's your take on the what's new page after a few slept nights?
<jjfrv8> I don't know if we ever reached a consensus on what it should cover
<jjfrv8> slickymaster voted for it only covering changes since Precise
<knome> yeah, i'm not sure how useful S->T changes would be
<knome> or, in other words, the release notes should cover that already
<knome> and we don't need to advertise that upgrade too much, since those who are using regular releases will most probably upgrade ayway
<jjfrv8> yeah
<knome> considering we have the feature tour and installer slideshow covering the generic "what xubuntu is", i think we need to focus on actual changes
<knome> what those are... well, we probably want to talk about new apps
<knome> theming hasn't changed *too* much, most of that is just really boring technical talk "we support gtk3.10 now"
<jjfrv8> I think so - for the new apps
<knome> but when i think what we have...
<knome> menulibre, mugshot, gtk-theme-config
<knome> light-locker
<knome> those are all something i'd also want to feature on the installer slideshow
<jjfrv8> yup
<knome> so maybe we should focus on getting the new features advertised there
<knome> and put the rest of the effort into the release notes
<knome> rather than creating a yet new page for the website
<knome> (we can always use the tour page for such things as well)
<knome> bluesabre?
<knome> jjfrv8, are you comfortable working with docbook on the drafts, or would you rather do it with a different tool?
<knome> that is, drafts for extensions to the end-user docs
<jjfrv8> i'm okay with docbook
<knome> mhm, the whiteboard looks better now imo
<knome> let's see what the bugs are about
<knome> bug 1213933
<ubottu> bug 1213933 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Slideshow recommends trying out environment which isn't present" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1213933
<knome> afaik, we have no way to tell if the user is installing directly, or via the live environment
<knome> maybe we should change the wording to "If you are running this installation via the 'Try Xubuntu' -mode..."
<knome> better ideas?
<knome> lderan, how familiar did you get with the ubiquity installer environment?
<jjfrv8> no, cause I have no idea about how to discern the environment
<lderan> knome, from what i remember we can tell what distro and version the user is on
<knome> yep, but not if they are installing directly or not
<knome> right,
<knome> so we need to take action on the woring
<knome> *wording
<knome> i can't type today
<lderan> knome, i can take a look at to see if it can be found out someway
<knome> okay, but don't use too much time on it
<knome> i mean, we are probably just fine with just the rewording
<knome> added a comment in the bug
<knome> ok, i'm pretty fine with the blueprint
<knome> jjfrv8, anything you want to discuss?
 * knome goes copying the pad to the blueprint, so no touching now!
<jjfrv8> can you give me a quick idea of items I should be working on in the immediate future?
<knome> i tried to put *some* structure in the work items
<Noskcaj> Is anyone working on the SRU for bug 1244629 ?
<ubottu> bug 1244629 in xfce4-weather-plugin (Ubuntu) "xfce4-weather-plugin showing 'No Data'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1244629
<knome> where the items on the top are planning, and bottom are actually finishing
<knome> Noskcaj, not that i know of
<Noskcaj> knome, What was the other SRU we had to 
<Noskcaj> do?
<knome> Noskcaj, docs is done, but broken apparently
<knome> Noskcaj, there might've been others as well
<knome> jjfrv8, i guess next up is get the new tour/about pages started
<jjfrv8> and you're going to do the call to the ML, right?
<knome> jjfrv8, and sections on the docs; mugshot/menulibre/xfdesktop/gtk3 indicators, but they are partly blocked by everything not being in place yet
<knome> yes, i can run the call
<knome> i could also organize some social media visibility for that as well
<elfy> if you don't want calls to -dev merging together - just letting you know I'll be doing one later in the week
<knome> elfy, good, i'm planning to run the call today :P
<elfy> cool :)
<jjfrv8> when you say "sections on the docs", you just mean in the what's new sections, right?
<jjfrv8> The actual documentation for those is just upstream, no?
<knome> that's a good question
<knome> at least gtk3 indicators and xfdesktop need to be covered to some extent in xubuntu dos
<knome> and i would say it would be good to have mugshot in as well
<knome> menulibre, well, upstream docs dor that would be okay for me
<knome> but the mugshot documentation can be pretty similar to the upstream docs
<knome> it's a simple app, so writing the documentation doesn't take too long anyway
<jjfrv8> I was just thinking the the current documentation doesn't go into too much detail on any apps
<knome> starting the work on mugshot/menulibre docs upstream is fine though, we can then pull them downstream and adapt/cut as/if needed
<knome> that's true
<jjfrv8> but we can change that
<knome> so that's why i don't think we specifically need menulibre documentation
<knome> i would like to make mugshot an integral part of the system
<knome> we cover changing themes already
<knome> gtk3 indicators we probably want to cover quickly, basically to list what's available (or at least cover the indicators shown by default)
<knome> oh btw, we might need to adapt the docs to new panel layout
<knome> which is still WIP
<jjfrv8> you mean the possibility of whiskermenu?
<knome> that, and generally the panel layout
<knome> we might reorder some things, and we will probably drop the pop-up panel from the bottom
<knome> so the text needs to be adapted for that
<jjfrv8> ah
<knome> it's a relatively trivial task, but something we need to remember to do :)
<jjfrv8> right
<knome> i added it to the work items as BLOCKED
<knome> (since there is no decision on the new panel layout yet)
<knome> i will try to remember to follow up with you once we have it ready
<jjfrv8> thanks for the help, knome 
<knome> no problem
<knome> if you need any help any time, just ping me
<jjfrv8> will do
<jjfrv8> bbl
<knome> jjfrv8, sent the call to the list
<jarnos> brainwash, well I praised xfce4-terminal's command line options, but they seem to be buggy, as for -e and -x, in Xubuntu 13.10 :(
<brainwash> jarnos: buggy? time for another bug report :)
<jarnos> brainwash, maybe later, meanwhile, I use lxterm for those purposes.
<jarnos> brainwash, it does not have -x, though, but -e works well.
<brainwash> but what exactly does not work? maybe it's not a bug in xfce4-terminal after all
<elfy> hi slickymaster - just about to wander off - I've just added you to a MP for review, but no rush for it 
<slickymaster> ok, elfy I've almost finished the other five. Tomorrow I'l write my comments on your MP
<elfy> thanks :)
<slickymaster> np
<elfy> night all
<jarnos> brainwash, try xfce4-terminal -e "ls | less", then same with lxterm.
<jarnos> brainwash, I couldn't figure out, if -x could be used, instead.
<brainwash> so what is the problem?
<brainwash> "ls | less" is not a valid command, you need to run it inside shell
<jarnos> brainwash, oh, it is handy anyway that lxterm can handle it.
<brainwash> check the man page then
<brainwash> "Execute command inside the terminal", it does not spawn a shell
<brainwash> so apparently lxterm does things differently
<jarnos> brainwash, I don't complain. But -x is supposed to "Execute the remainder of the command line inside the terminal". Still piping does not work.
<jarnos> brainwash, anyway, good night
<brainwash> :/
<ali1234> xfce4-terminal -e "sh -c \"ls | less\""
<ali1234> personally i think this way is the correct way
<ali1234> sometimes you don't want a shell
<ali1234> i don't understand what -x is supposed to do
<brainwash> basically the same like -e, but no quoting needed
<brainwash> it simply executes the reminder, the part after -x
<brainwash> remainder, woops
<brainwash> I'm not sure why jarnos assumes that piping should work in this case
<brainwash> no shell -> no piping
<ali1234> i can't seem to make it work with -x even if i tell it to run a shell
<brainwash> xfce4-terminal -x sh -c "ls | less"
<ali1234> hmm
<brainwash> speaking of xfce4-terminal -> bug 1243354
<ubottu> bug 1243354 in xfce4-terminal (Ubuntu) "Xfce4-terminal cannot run on more than one X screen at a time" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243354
<ali1234> try with --disable-server
<brainwash> disabling the server functionality is just a workaround
<brainwash> ali1234: got time to work on a proper fix? I forgot to tell the reporter to redirect this bug upstream
<ali1234> don't know without digging into the source
<brainwash> ok, I'll file an upstream report if needed
<ochosi> brainwash: any test-results for me?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-01-14
<ochosi> Noskcaj: so is today already tomorrow for you? :D
<Noskcaj> ochosi, um, what
<ochosi> you previously mentioned your agenda for "tomorrow", by which i think you meant tuesday
<ochosi> and it is tuesday now :)
<Noskcaj> yeah, but still at my grandparents, so limited internets
<knome> internets?
<knome> you only need one
<ochosi> no worries, enjoy your time there
<knome> that reminds me i should setup my secondary internet as the backup solution in dd-wrt
<knome> >:D
<sergio-br2> hello?
<sergio-br2> i installed and purged nvidia-331 in trusty, now i got a infinity plymouth loading. Any idea?
<ochosi> how did you install/purge the driver?
<sergio-br2> install by synaptic, nvidia-331-updates
<sergio-br2> and purge by sudo apt-get purge (many packages that install with nvidia)
<ochosi> did you install another nvidia driver instead after purging?
<sergio-br2> no, only in i915 and nouveau
<ochosi> hmkay, not sure then
<sergio-br2> ochosi, i purged because i didnt get graphic window after install, only tty
<ochosi> i'd start by going back to something that has already worked
<ochosi> i.e. installing a driver you know should work
<sergio-br2> hum, but the problem is that here is Optimus hybrid card
<sergio-br2> nvidia-304 work with nvidia-prime?
<ochosi> no idea
<ochosi> i have no experience with that at all
<sergio-br2> hum ok
<sergio-br2> do you know how to restore xorg config?
<Unit193> Remove /etc/X11/xorg.conf
<ochosi> any users of nouveau driver around?
<sergio-br2> there is no /etc/X11/xorg.conf
<sergio-br2> but there is /etc/X11/xorg.conf.failsafe
<sergio-br2> this xorg.conf file is not deprecated?
<Noskcaj> ochosi, Could you check xubuntu_fix-duplicate-volumes.patch in xfdesktop 4.11.2? It's not applying and i'm not sure where it should go
<ochosi> Noskcaj: i think we best ask eric about it
<ochosi> not even sure it's still needed in 4.11
<ochosi> i can try to talk to him tomorrow, can you link me to the patch?
<Unit193> As far as I know, it isn't.
<ochosi> there ya go ^ :)
<Noskcaj> ok, dropping now
<ochosi> a deuce? or what?
<knome> :P
<knome> the ball
<Unit193> In this case though, it mainly means I've tested on several systems without that with no problems.
<ochosi> i have no idea spontaneously what the patch does
<ochosi> must be pre-gio stuff
<Unit193> Noskcaj: If you're working on a sync, just pull from my ppa, diff, review, s/unit193/jackson/ :P
<Noskcaj> Unit193, I was just going to merge from the debian svn to minimise the delta
<Noskcaj> Any extra changes in the PPA?
<Unit193> It's basically just a sync, dropping or refreshing patches.
<Noskcaj> ok
<Unit193> Before pushing, I'd test it with nautilus trying to take over the desktop though.
<Unit193> ochosi: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/xfdesktop4/trusty/view/head:/debian/patches/xubuntu_fix-duplicate-volumes.patch
<ochosi> yeah, i remember now
<ochosi> not reproducible here
<ochosi> i'd drop it for now
<Unit193> Mhmm, I did.
<Noskcaj> Pushed to lp:~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfdesktop4/4.11 . Can one of you guys check it?
<ochosi> sorry, still don't have a trusty box :( (will in 10 days or so)
<Noskcaj> also, Can someone take a look at bug 1244629 ? It's my first attempt at an SRU bug
<ubottu> bug 1244629 in xfce4-weather-plugin (Ubuntu) "SRU xfce4-weather-plugin, currently showing 'No Data'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1244629
<ochosi> Unit193: can you test the desktop pkg? ^
<Unit193> ochosi: The part that needs it the most I can't. :P
<Noskcaj> should i just propose the merge?
<ochosi> sorry, got 0 SRU experience personally
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, When do you think mugshot and menulibre will be ready? plus the next catfish release
<Noskcaj> ochosi, It's fine.
<Unit193> nautilus patch: s/added/updated/
<Unit193> er, refreshed.
<ochosi> :>
<knome> :P
<Unit193> bzr be sloooow..
<ochosi> always
<Unit193> Bitbucket++ Alioth++  :P
<sergio-br2> night
<ochosi> ok, seems like nouveau drivers don
<ochosi> 't support screen blanking at all
<ochosi> night everyone
<knome> night ochosi 
<Unit193> Hmm, does that xfdesktop build?
<Unit193> Good night.
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: if everything goes as planned...  menulibre this week, mugshot this weekend, catfish next week
<bluesabre> knome ^
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/61154/ ends up being the diff.
<bluesabre> looks good to me
<Unit193> (It's a diff of xfdesktop4 from https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfdesktop4/4.11 to what I have.)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Re: response/last ping.  Right, understandable completely, just said somethng about it (in an effort not to ping you too) because it was marked in progress.
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> Unit193: what/which ping?
<Unit193> Packageset uploader.
<bluesabre> ah right
<bluesabre> after I get these apps done, I'll double down on that again
<Unit193> Still though, thanks for the first two, rather so the first one.  Third is just for someone else. :P
<xubuntu547> hi guys, i just have one question. Is there any way that the rectangular pathbar location selector could be implemented in thunar instead of the arrow one in greybird?
<ochosi> can some of you bugsquad members please set this bug to "triaged"? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shimmer-themes/+bug/1268243
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1268243 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Greybird theme and Synaptic" [Undecided,New]
<elfy> morning
<slickymaster> morning all
<elfy> hi slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi elfy, good morning
<knome> ochosi, done
<knome> ochosi, anything else, importance?
<elfy> knome: when you've time to do something :p https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/pidgin 
<elfy> and good morning :)
<slickymaster> elfy: just a quick question
<elfy> slickymaster: I will endeavour to give you a quick answer as well then :p
<slickymaster> on your catfish test, on line 64 you have "click on Folder icon to right of search term box"
<elfy> possibly
<slickymaster> am I crazy or this icon is on the left of the search term box?
<elfy> nope - you are sane :p
<slickymaster> ah, ok
<elfy> that's been there since the beginning I think - no-one's noticed 
<slickymaster> just checking :)
<slickymaster> ok, I'll add that correction to the review also
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> knome: importance is very low :)
<knome> wishlist-low or low?
<ochosi> wish-list
<knome> elfy, done
<elfy> knome: you are a star - want me to do the tracker - or you doing that as well?
<knome> i'll do that next
<knome> and done
<elfy> ok - thanks boss :p
<knome> ha
<ochosi> thanks knome 
<slickymaster> elfy: I've added my comments/review to you https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/minorchanges/+merge/201284 proposal
<slickymaster> your^^^
<elfy> thanks :)
<slickymaster> elfy: do you think it is too thorough?
<elfy> no- thanks :)
<elfy> though I can't find "The indentation at line 47 needs 4 more spaces to the right" :)
<elfy> looks right here 
<slickymaster> it could be my text editor causing it
<elfy> ok 
<slickymaster> On Geany, in mx box, lines 46, 47 and 48 are equally left aligned
<slickymaster> my^^
<elfy> and as far as the <code> thing is concerned - there are loads of those dotted around the place, guess the way to do that is check when we're doing other things
<davmor2> slickymaster: but are they spaces or tabs ;)
<slickymaster> yes, but I think they should be added, because it will impact the readability of those lines, in the tracker 
<slickymaster> davmor2: spaces
<davmor2> slickymaster: now is the rest spaces or tabs
<knome> slickymaster, only on the admin side. the tags itself will make sure the text is indented correctly in the regular testcase view
<brainwash> ochosi: your screen saver changes seem to work fine here
<ochosi> brainwash: with both amd and intel?
<brainwash> ochosi: yes
<ochosi> did you try to first lock your primary session and then create a new session on vt8?
<brainwash> yes
<ochosi> (just to see whether the settings get inherited)
<ochosi> and xset -q showed the defaults?
<slickymaster> davmor2: knome: well, I remember that there was one test that the use of tabs instead of spaces broke it and Noskcaj asked me to always use spaces
<brainwash> but I only checked with the restricted AMD driver
<brainwash> wasn't in the mood to once again switch to the open source one =S
<ochosi> brainwash: ok, thanks for testing. if you can, please also test with the opensource one, cause that's what's used by default
<knome> yeah, testing with that would have increased the usefulness of your testing by 50%!
<brainwash> ochosi: I did not check the actual values, but the screen did not blank after 30sec
<elfy> slickymaster: ok - all done
<davmor2> slickymaster: that's why I was asking,  If you are working on someone elses code they might well of used tabs rather than spaces as that is what worked best for them, most people just make tab == 4 spaces in ide's though
<brainwash> ochosi: I'll check them next time
<ochosi> brainwash: hmm, ok. well i presume you're using greeter from daily anyway, no? if so, testing should be easier now as the pkgs have been built. ideally check the xset values. thanks!
<slickymaster> davmor2: yes
<brainwash> ochosi: bzr
<ochosi> brainwash: in a next step we'll most likely make the value configurable, but i think 30secs is quite an okayish default
<slickymaster> elfy: thanks
<elfy> slickymaster: if you want to double check those changes at some point, then I can merge and update the tracker - then get the call out tomorrow at some point
<slickymaster> elfy: it will be done before lunch
<ochosi> brainwash: oh, one more thing. you tested on trusty, right?
<elfy> slickymaster: don't rush - I'm chilling out at home - you're at work :)
<brainwash> ochosi: yes
<ochosi> ok, good to know
<brainwash> ochosi: gnome-screensaver hides the login box after 60sec of inactivity
<ochosi> hm, ok. let's test this a bit more and then settle on a default
<ochosi> honestly i don't care whether we set 30secs or 60 :>
<ochosi> but it's good to know the g-s value as reference
<brainwash> xscreensaver does it after few seconds
<slickymaster> elfy: np, both the database and the applications servers are running smoothly over here
<elfy> :)
<slickymaster> elfy, Abiword and gThumb are correct now
<slickymaster> but you misplaced the <code></code> tags in the Catfish test. Do you want me to comment it in you MP, or can we get it right gere?
<slickymaster> your^^^
<slickymaster> here^^Âª
<elfy> slickymaster: it's ok - I see it 
<elfy> personally I don't think they're really needed though ;)
<slickymaster> elfy: ping me after you make the changes and I'll comment on your MP
<elfy> slickymaster: pushed that
<slickymaster> elfy: Perfect, I think it can me merged and the tracker updated. Already approved it
<elfy> ok - I'll get on that shortly
<elfy> well - no idea what's going on there :|
<slickymaster> elfy: with your proposal?
<elfy> knome: if you get a minute at some point today - I am hating on bzr again :(
<knome> elfy, i'm just preparing lunch, i'll ping you after that if you are around
<elfy> ok - not doing much today here :)
<elfy> slickymaster: kind of - hating bzr
<elfy> package tracker is updated now though
<slickymaster> well, you never seemed to love bzr all that much ;)
<elfy> lol
<elfy> keeps telling me there is nothing to push to the parent 
<elfy> anyway ... 
<knome> elfy, ok, so what's the issue
<elfy> bzr push :parent tells me there's nothing to push
<elfy> but - I can see the changes here :p
<elfy> https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/ubuntu-manual-tests
<elfy> this one
<knome> so you want to push what where?
<elfy> the changes in mine to https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-manual-tests/trunk
<knome> right
<knome> :parent might be set to your own branch
<knome> so try bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
<elfy> lol 
<elfy> now branches have diverged
<knome> ok,
<knome> bzr merge lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
<knome> bzr commit -m 'Merge with trunk'
<knome> bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> it did something
<elfy> but - seems to have only been pidgin - which is old
<knome> ...except that i only just merged it
<knome> that's something you didn't have in your personal branch
<elfy> ok - so yea - the changes are there now - thanks :)
<slickymaster> I can confirm that, https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/minorchanges/+merge/201284 just got merged
<knome> np
<elfy> I still hate bzr though :p
<slickymaster> lol
<elfy> don't do it enough and my notes for fighting with it are sparse :)
<slickymaster> knome: I'm going to lunch now but after lunch can we talk about the documentation?
<knome> yes, i should be around
<slickymaster> ok
<brainwash> so there has been some activity on this report bug 1246364
<ubottu> bug 1246364 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "update-notifier does not show a tray icon in xubuntu 13.10" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1246364
<brainwash> we want the old behavior (tray icon instead of random popup window), right?
<christoffer> hmm I'm trying to set playback of sound from "Klavaro" application to my headset in PulseAudio Control but the application only plays a sound (and shows up in the list) for a few seconds
<christoffer> no time to change output device.
<christoffer> Is it possible to set output device for specific application in some other way?
<ochosi> christoffer: sry, but the support channel is over at #xubuntu, this is the dev channel
<christoffer> aha ok 
<christoffer> right
<elfy> ochosi: was going to let them find out it wasn't a bug by reading the report :p
<ochosi> haha, sorry for spilling the beans ;)
<ochosi> fwiw, i think i just fixed the problem with nouveau and the greeter
<elfy> and it'll only be half a dozen people do it - so I'm ok just telliing them :)
<ochosi> i guess blues will review it tonight and then i'll merge it and in two days or so it'll be in the daily PPA the latest for you to try (optimistically speaking)
<elfy> ochosi: excellent - I have been reading that inbacklog when I can, so I knew you were all there 
<elfy> cool - as always - just let me know and off I'll trot :)
<ochosi> btw, i need one more test from you as a nouveau user
<elfy> k
<ochosi> i found out that for me the screen *never* goes blank with nouveau
<elfy> inlock screen? 
<ochosi> and i wonder whether that's an issue of my specific hardware/driver combo, or in general
<elfy> if that's the case it does here
<ochosi> it blanks in the lockscreen?
<elfy> yea - pretty sure it does - I'm off for a while in a bit - so can test whatever you want
<ochosi> ok, then it's just me (good to know)
<ochosi> yeah, there's one more greeterrelated thing i#d ask you to test
<elfy> ok
<ochosi> so ping me whenever you have time (hope i'll be around then)
<elfy> why not tell me now :)
<elfy> unless you're busy of course 
<ochosi> no, i can, sure
<elfy> go ahead then 
<ochosi> 1) make sure you have the latest version of the greeter from daily PPA 2) lock your session 3) make sure the screen gets blanked 4) move your mouse to unblank the screen, then wait patiently for 30secs for the screen to go blank again
<ochosi> 5) unblank the screen again, log into a *new* session from the lock-screen (e.g. guest-session if you don't have a second user)
<elfy> not sure I have the daily ppa 
<ochosi> 6) open a terminal, run "xset -q" and tell me the timeout value of ScreenSaver
<ochosi> (or run "xset -q | grep timeout")
<elfy> pretty sure I've got stable here - got link to the daily ppa 
<ochosi> ok, in that case 0) "sudo add-apt-repository https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+archive/daily"
<elfy> and I can do that test of course
<ochosi> so these 6 (or 7) steps, that's it
<elfy> yep - no problem :)
<ochosi> note that the nouveau issue isn't fixed in daily yet
<ochosi> so ignore that for now
<elfy> grrr
<ochosi> :>
<elfy> that ppa - httperror404
<ochosi> if you wanna test that, you have to build a special branch yourself
<elfy> nah - that's not what the grrr's for :p
<ochosi> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/daily
<ochosi> that's better ^
<ochosi> ;)
<elfy> yea - got the lp page now - was running on copy what people say instead of read it first then :D
<ochosi> yeah, sry for the mis-paste
<elfy> that's ok - I should have noticed anyway lol
<ochosi> indeed :D
<elfy> ok - greeter updated 
<elfy> ok - away for a bit now - shall lock screen etc
<ochosi> mhm
<papadoc> hey guys.  How does one go about submitting suggestions for Xubuntu.  ie, solutions to xfwm4 screen tearing, menu improvements, etc?
<ochosi> hm, you can write things up and send them to the dev-ml
<ochosi> or you can start to chat ppl up here
<papadoc> ok great.  I'll do a bit more research to see if my suggestions have already been bounced around before I flood the chat =)  thanks
<ochosi> what solution do you have to xfwm4 screen tearing? (switching the compositor off or saying compton is forbidden)
<ochosi> wrt menu, we're currently strongly considering whiskermenu
<pmjdebruijn> doesn't the new xfwm having vsync builtin?
<pmjdebruijn> and the intel driver has _beta_ tearfree now too
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: yeah, but it doesn't work well/at all with nvidia proprietary drivers
<papadoc> ok thats what I was going to refer to:  sync to vblank
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: I know...
<pmjdebruijn> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?id=22d6df280117fba8eb7584bca631d73a7ba359e2
<pmjdebruijn> it's already in an unreleased version of xfwm4
<ochosi> sync to vblank is already in the xfce4.12ppa
<ochosi> and xfwm4.11 will land in 14.04 most liekyl
<ochosi> likely
<pmjdebruijn> whiskermenu "looks" pretty nice
<pmjdebruijn> what are the arguments against it?
<pmjdebruijn> oh same guy as focuswriter
<pmjdebruijn> btw
<pmjdebruijn> with regard to bootsplash/wallpaper
<pmjdebruijn> on some displays (read cheap laptops) there's some banding visible
<pmjdebruijn> while that's partially the problem of the laptop
<pmjdebruijn> adding some noise to the imagery might hide the issue
<pmjdebruijn> http://noisepng.com/
<pmjdebruijn> I'll do some experiments soon :)
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: banding?
<pmjdebruijn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_banding
<ochosi> guess i have to read up on 1) whether colour banding is what i think it is and 2) how noise helps there :)
<ochosi> oh, right, it is what i thought it is
<pmjdebruijn> effectively my netbook display is only 6bit per component, so 18bit in total, not 24bit
<pmjdebruijn> yeah I still need to do some experiments
<pmjdebruijn> it's common practice for css to add noise to gradients
<pmjdebruijn> so I assume it works for bitmaps too
<pmjdebruijn> but I'll try
<ochosi> i think we have to add the noise directly to the png/svg files
<pmjdebruijn> the added noise may fail to help after scaling
<ochosi> i mean theoretically i can look at whether gtk has a function for that (for the greeter), but plymouth (=bootsplash) isn't very flexible
<pmjdebruijn> right
<pmjdebruijn> let me see if it helps first :)
<ochosi> sure :)
<pmjdebruijn> I'll just quickly gimp it :)
<ochosi> i think "gimp" is really under-used as a verb, so kudos for that
<ochosi> maybe you can tell me afterwards what the theory behind noise vs. banding is
<ochosi> (simply distracting the eye by "blurring" the lines?)
<pmjdebruijn> I think so
<pmjdebruijn> it's akin to dithering
<elfy> ochosi: timeout 600 cycle 600 
<ochosi> elfy: and 4) ?
<elfy> the blank after mouse movement was 10 mins - I assume that's ^^ why
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> hmmm
<ochosi> then i guess the last version in the PPA doesn't contain my latest patch :/
<ochosi> sorry elfy
<ochosi> let me check
<elfy> however - I have fiddled with this install and xset previously
<pmjdebruijn> http://ephotopros.com/articles/article-archives/articletype/articleview/articleid/399/reduce-banding-in-gradients.aspx
<pmjdebruijn> I really do wonder if that survives scaling
<ochosi> elfy: xset isn't persistent (unless you add it to the session-startup manually)
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: nice illustration there. it really does look better
<elfy> ochosi: ok - thanks 
<elfy> greeter version here is 201401131803~ubuntu14.04.1
<ochosi> elfy: so yeah, that version has my patch
<ochosi> elfy: after you unblanked the screen in the greeter, it really took 10mins for it to blank again?
<elfy> mmm - ok - so not working for me
<elfy> yep - I'd not make it up :)
<ochosi> (in the session it should take 10mins, only in the greeter it's reduced)
<ochosi> and you didn't just log out, but *lock* your session
<elfy> I didn't count exactly - but it was enough time to do a cuppa and other stuff
<elfy> yep - definitely - locked just after I spoke to you 
<elfy> 10 mins - blanked
<ochosi> weird
<elfy> moved mouse 
<elfy> then ~10 minutes again
<ochosi> brainwash said it worked for him
<ochosi> (and it does work for me)
<elfy> nothing in any of the other ppa's likely to conflict with it 
<ochosi> not really
<elfy> or you having done stuff to files localy I'd not have?
<ochosi> maybe you need to restart your greeter/computer somehow
<ochosi> not really in this respect, no
<elfy> perhaps - I can reboot a bit later and try - certainly worth doing that - just in case
<ochosi> ok, thanks
<elfy> ochosi: rebooted - will check again in a while
<ochosi> thanks elfy
<ochosi> bbl
<slickymaster> knome: you're around?
<holden87> Hi, me again (this morning's pathbar question asker). Is there a special reason the pathbar is like arrows?
<elfy> I guess that was the way the person/people designing the theme wanted it 
<elfy> personally I prefer it to show path - so do that
<holden87> Oh, sorry, i wasn't clear on my thoughts. I apologise. The idea is great, it's just the problem (as i see it) that the buttons are detached onw from another, and in caseof arrows, i think the elementary os approach would fit nicer. But hey, you guys made evverything else beautiful so no real need for me to rant about this little thing :)
<elfy> lol
<elfy> ochosi: no change after a reboot - still not 30s after mouse movement - still same with xset -q
<knome> slickymaster, pong
<slickymaster> knome: about today's -devel mail
<knome> yes
<slickymaster> I can pick up mugshot and work on its documentation
<knome> ok, then send an email on the list saying you will start working with it, and anybody else willing to help with that, contact you
<knome> for the documentation itself, be in touch with bluesabre and make sure you are testing the version we are shipping
<slickymaster> just one thing, is it supposed to be done in Docbook?
<knome> that's a good question.
<knome> bluesabre can tell you how he wants the upstream documentation to be done
<knome> but i think we need to document mugshot at least briefly in the xubuntu documentation as well
<knome> so we will, at some point, need to think about converting to docbook
<slickymaster> I've worked on the Parole and xfdesktop on bluesabre server, but I'm guessing that for this it will be completely different
<knome> how the upstream documentation is up to bluesabre, as i said
<slickymaster> ok, I'll ping him on it
<knome> not sure if docbook is the best choice for that
<knome> i mean, it's not an xfce project, so it won't go to te xfce wiki
<slickymaster> yeah, guessed as much
<knome> and docbook is maybe a bit heavy for a single app
<slickymaster> I'll discuss it with him
<knome> but... yeah, i'll leave the decision to him
<knome> good :)
<knome> are you at all familiar with docbook?
<slickymaster> not that much
<knome> okay,
<slickymaster> but if it deemed necessary I'll have to find a way to be ;) 
<knome> if you want to become more familiar with it, i'd suggest getting the docs
<knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs
<knome> then go to desktop-guide/C/, and look at the xml files
<slickymaster> yeah, I've already done a few fixes on them, but that's not the same as building from the ground up
<knome> sure
<slickymaster> I'll see what he has to say about it
<knome> writing the upstream doc is good already
<knome> if not else, i can always port the required parts to docbook
<knome> but we have other people, including jjfrv8, able to work with that
<knome> and until we have the docs written... that's the least of our worries :)
<slickymaster> yeah, I'm sort of counting on him to cover my back if it comes to that ;)
<knome> hehe, sure
<slickymaster> elfy: https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/update_display_testcase/+merge/200101 is reviewed and approved
<sergio-br2> hey hello
<sergio-br2> what "size" means in Notes Properties? There are 3 option, small, medium and large, but apparently it does not changes anything
<elfy> slickymaster: thanks :) 
<knome> sergio-br2, affects new groups
<knome> sergio-br2, shift+ctrl+n
<slickymaster> np elfy 
<sergio-br2> ahh, the size of the entire window, ok
<sergio-br2> hey, this notes is cool :)
<knome> yep
<knome> the difference barely notifiable...
<sergio-br2> isn't possible to each window have a different color? color by group?
<knome> doesn't look like it.
<sergio-br2> hum, if i change close and minimize buttons to left, it does not change in notes. It is a know behavior?
<slickymaster> I'm off
<slickymaster> bbl
<elfy> cya 
<knome> sergio-br2, notes doesn't use the regular xfwm controls anyway
<jarnos> brainwash, did you have still something in mind concerning xfce4-terminal -e or -x?
<brainwash> jarnos: no, it works for me
<brainwash> -x executes the remainder, so no quoting needed
<brainwash> however, you need to spawn a shell, otherwise you won't be able to pipe output
<brainwash> xfce4-terminal -x sh -c "ls | less"
<elfy> lderan: YAY :p
<elfy> now what happens with it ... 
<lderan> elfy, woo
<lderan> it shoiuld get merged now
<elfy> yep - I guess I need to start looking at jenkins reports properly now 
<lderan> :P
<elfy> I was looking at our image ones - but the last time I looked it was a red wall of fail
<lderan> oh dear
<elfy> still got the session bug so they just fail
<elfy> last green one we have is the beginning of december
<elfy> DanChapman: am I right in thinking that once we've got autopilot tests actually live, results would be in https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Trusty/view/AutoPkgTest/
<brainwash> micahg: we really need to merge the fix for 1259525 and released the updated package =S
<brainwash> release I mean
<brainwash> bug 1259525
<ubottu> bug 1259525 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Lubuntu & Xubuntu & Ubuntu Kylin lightdm session fails to start. user-session is not set" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259525
<micahg> brainwash: ok, I'll take a look when I get home later tonight
<brainwash> micahg: thank you :)
<ochosi> wb micahg 
<DanChapman> elfy, no they haven't been set up to run on trusty yet, not sure why they stopped tbh, jibel has a work item for it this cycle i believe so should be up running again at some point :-S. You can also set them up to run as autopkgtests but that would mean moving each test to it's corresponding package. 
<elfy> DanChapman: any haven't been set up - or the one we just got finsihed? 
<elfy> hi micahg 
<sergio-br2> someone knows what the default size icon to pop window that appears when you hover around the mouse in desktop?
<ochosi> sergio-br2: that will be configurable in 14.04 with xfdesktop4.11
<ochosi> i think the default is 128
<ochosi> (mostly useful for images)
<elfy> not so much for folders :p
<sergio-br2> there is one or other icon that is less
<sergio-br2> like calculator and screenshot
<ochosi> yeah, possible that we don't have higher res icons for those two
<elfy> I'm looking at something else ... 
<sergio-br2> hum, i can get from the svg, make others png sizes, try a patch (it's good for me to learn this :) )
<ochosi> sergio-br2: if you want to contribute to the icon-theme (which is very welcome btw) you have to pull the github-repo and create an svg in the appropriate size
<knome> ochosi, Unit193: any possibility you could apply some pressure to get the session fix uploaded?
<ochosi> knome: on who exactly?
<ochosi> sergio-br2: https://github.com/shimmerproject/elementary-xfce
<Unit193> knome: micahg is busy, and hasn't been handy lately.
<knome> is it on the sponsor queue?
<sergio-br2> hum, ok. But i saw, there is many svg icons. I think the question is only svg --> png, but i can do one or two icon in inkscape too.
<sergio-br2> thanks ochosi
<knome> does it have a patch?
<ochosi> sergio-br2: yeah, png icons can't be accepted in the icon-theme, that much is for sure :)
<knome> i'm off to watch a movie
<knome> i will be back after that to pester you more
<knome> ->
<Unit193> knome: <miahg> brainwash: ok, I'll take a look when I get home later tonight
<sergio-br2> hah, now i undertood... this icon theme is a little bit different
<sergio-br2> in repo it's svg, in your deskop it is png. System convert during installation?
<ochosi> sergio-br2: yes, because it makes the files smaller and they load faster
<sergio-br2> smart trick
<ochosi> well, also, svg is far better for maintenance, because you can modify the icons more easily
<ochosi> brainwash: notice anything? http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-01142014-101324pm.php
<brainwash> fake
<brainwash> transparency
<brainwash> :D
<brainwash> ready to test?
 * drc thought ochosi meant that he had his own, personalized lego character :)
<ochosi> brainwash: well that as well, the mouse-cursor should serve as a hint
<ochosi> drc: yeah, it kinda is ;)
<brainwash> I noticed that too, grayed out panel items
<ochosi> (fake transparency has been in trunk for days already, there's just no theme that uses it yet...)
<ochosi> yeah, i fixed the code for the insensitive language and session items
<ochosi> in case you don't remember, you've been nagging about that as well
<brainwash> yeah :)
<elfy> I am very pleased to see that I'm not the only one nagging then :p
<brainwash> do you think that a visual indicator to "warn" the user about the incoming screen blank could be useful?
<drc> 99 xubuntu bugs on the wall, 99 bugs on the wall, take one down, fix it around, 101 xubuntu bugs on the wall....
<brainwash> ochosi: like a timer
<brainwash> 10 sec before the screen blanks
<ochosi> drc: thanks for the getting the spirits high ;)
<ochosi> bleh, and he's gone
<elfy> we can wait behind the tree :p
<brainwash> ochosi: xscreensaver has such an indicator, gnome-screensaver print "blabla expired" some seconds before it hides the login box
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, thought about that, but honestly, ppl will notice. it's a no-brainer in a way
<ochosi> brainwash: i mean ppl don't have an option in the greeter to change this or switch it off, so...
<ochosi> just means adding yet another useless ticker
<brainwash> which stays invisible most of the time
<ochosi> yeah, i don't think it's worth the effort
<ochosi> i'd rather fix other stuff
<brainwash> true, if I really want this timer, I could implement it myself I guess
<ochosi> yeah, would be about time you get your ass off the couch and send in some patches
<brainwash> yes =S
<ochosi> there are enough bugs for everyone ;)
<ochosi> you could e.g. implement session-menu icons
<ochosi> (if you prefer features to bugfixes)
<brainwash> session-menu icons.. not sure what you mean
<brainwash> in lightdm-gtk-greeter?
<ochosi> give each session an icon
<ochosi> yeah
<brainwash> ah
<ochosi> and show it in the menu instead of that silly settings-cog
<brainwash> like unity-greeter does
<ochosi> (like unity-greeter)
<ochosi> shouldn't be hard
<brainwash> monochrome?
<ochosi> icons are already there, and i can draw additional ones
<ochosi> i mean we can borrow them from unity-greeter for now
<ochosi> and if there are sessions that need another icon, we can add them
<brainwash> but they would be way too small
<ochosi> why? xubuntu's logo in the startmenu on the panel is quite distinct imo
<brainwash> same for language selector?
<ochosi> nah, i don't wanna add 200 flags
<brainwash> well, not a flag icon, but en_us
<brainwash> de_de
<ochosi> ah right
<ochosi> yeah, true
<ochosi> that'd be useful i guess
<ochosi> so that you can see the settings before logging in without opening the menu
<ochosi> originally, i wanted those items to be a part of the login-window
<brainwash> yes, sounds like a nice improvement
<ochosi> the language stuff would be very easy to do in fact
<elfy> cheerybye
<ochosi> as i thought: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-01142014-105815pm.php
<brainwash> nice
<brainwash> ochosi: oh, what about the sessions without an icon?
<brainwash> some simple/basic sessions don't ship with icon I think
<knome> Unit193, tomorrow = what day?
<knome> Unit193, err, tonight
<brainwash> ochosi: so cog as fallback, printing the actual session name sounds like a bad idea
<brainwash> knome: he answered me 2 hours ago
<knome> brainwash, ok, cheers
<knome> brainwash, i can agree that printing session names is not a good idea
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> cog as fallback, session-icon if found/matched
<ochosi> but we can at least add all major desktops/sessions we know of
<brainwash> right, I was thinking of the basic "wm only" sessions
<knome> yep.
<ochosi> bbl
<brainwash> ochosi: so we don't want to bloat the greeter screen with more information, but what about an indicator for the battery status (if available)? wasn't the initial plan to actually use the gtk3 indicators like unity-greeter?
<brainwash> battery status would be awesome, now that we use the greeter as unlock screen
<brainwash> I'll try to implement it
<olli_> ng
<knome> olli_, :)
<Unit193> knome: Said not long ago, scrollback still.
<knome> brainwash, yeah, i guess the battery indicator would be useful
<knome> Unit193, mhm, didn't get to read that ye
<knome> +t
<Unit193> I skimmed. :P
<knome> i should pick some photos today or tomorrow
<ochosi> brainwash: not necessary, there is already support for gtk3 indicators there, so you only have to whitelist indicator-power and activate indicators in the config file
<ochosi> if we use gtk3 indicators by default in 14.04, adding the power-indicator to the greeter would've been my plan
<knome> "would have been" ?
<ochosi> +anyway
<ochosi> but it doesn't matter really before we get the gtk3 indicators uploaded finally
<knome> but we're getting them uploaded, right?
<knome> i mean, they are ready for upload, and there's no critical bugs?
<Unit193> They randomly go transparent?
<sergio-br2> ochosi, when there are no 128 px icon, desktop preview use 48 or 64 icon?
<sergio-br2> don't worry, i understand now
<ochosi> Unit193: even with the latest panel and indicator-plugin? weird, i really can't reproduce that at all
<brainwash> ochosi: yes, transparency seems to work fine now
<brainwash> at least if the panel is transparent, it might still bug if the panel is set to be non transparent
<brainwash> ochosi: the highlighted menu entry is still a buggy, but this does not happen in unity, or?
<brainwash> if you use greybird in unity I mean
<ochosi> i have no idea 1) what you mean exactly and 2) what happens in unity, cause i've never used it
<brainwash> I mean the gtk3 indicator menus show this visual glitch
<ochosi> show me a screenshot, then i might know what you mean
<brainwash> when you hover over the menu entries
<ochosi> also, are you using the latest theme?
<ochosi> (either from git or shimmer daily PPA)
<brainwash> yes
<brainwash> mmh, didn't you actually confirm this glitch some days ago? :D
<brainwash> now I'm confused
<brainwash> so basically it does change the background of the highlighted menu entry, but the background of the text label remains white (not blue)
<ochosi> no
<ochosi> i never confirmed that
<ochosi> at least not that i can remember
<ochosi> and your issue sounds totally like not using the latest greybird (i'm not talking about the trusty version, because that one is outdated)
<brainwash> ok ok, let me boot my test system
<brainwash> :)
<brainwash> I'll also check unity
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<brainwash> ochosi: looks ok in unity, but not in my xubuntu session
<ochosi> screenshot plz
<brainwash> ochosi: do I need git/master of indicator-plugin?
<brainwash> ok, give me 30sec
<ochosi> no, Noskcaj's PPA should be fine
<ochosi> basically that and the shimmer daily PPA
<Unit193> ochosi: I use the ppa, it's there.
<ochosi> Unit193: in trusty i suppose?
<Unit193> Mhmm.
<ochosi> Unit193: and, it just happens during the running session or at startup?
<Unit193> What?
<ochosi> that the indicators go transparent
<Unit193> Two different issues, I was talking about the menus thing here.  They randomly go that way, don't know why.  The menu thing is always like that.
<ochosi> what menu thing?
<Unit193> That brainwash is talking about.
<ochosi> so it's not always like that, just sometimes?
<ochosi> ah, sorry
<ochosi> didn't read attentively there
<Unit193> Two different issues.  One is always like that, the menus being white and blue; and a second issue where the panel randomly shows the desktop background behind the icons.
<ochosi> let me check whether the shimmer daily PPA actually works :p
<bluesabre> slickymaster: feel free to document as you please on my wiki, I'll be dropping the help button from mugshot, so it will be helpful
<brainwash> ochosi: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/label13.php
<ochosi> very odd, but exactly what the theme should fix
<brainwash> it's daily ppa
<ochosi> brainwash: just for testing, could you pull the latest version from github and test that for me?
<ochosi> wanna rule out that it's the PPA
<brainwash> sure
<ochosi> (in saucy, this looks totally fine, so it could only be gtk3.10, but i haven't heard of any menuitem changes there)
<brainwash> ochosi: same with git/master
<brainwash> and it looks fine in unity
<ochosi> ok, i'll try to come up with a patch
<brainwash> isn't this strange? why does it look fine unity
<brainwash> should be the same menu code, or?
<ochosi> nope, it isn't
<brainwash> so I guess that all shimmer themes are affected
<ochosi> yeah, i guess
<brainwash> Orion isn't
<ochosi> yeah, orion doesn't have any special theming for the indicators
<ochosi> ok, try this diff plz: http://dpaste.com/1551823/
<ochosi> (i can also put up the whole file, if you don't like to apply diffs)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-01-15
<ochosi> brainwash: bleh, i made a mistake, s/none/transparent/
<ochosi> Unit193: also feel free to give this a shot if you can ^
<ochosi> will take another week until i get trusty
<brainwash> nope
<ochosi> doesn't work?
<brainwash> not for me
<brainwash> setting the background of .menu to "none" does kinda work
<ochosi> a-ha?
<brainwash> background stays completely blue, but font won't turn white
<brainwash> changes to the *hover thingy don't seem to have any effect
<brainwash> *:hover
<ochosi> you can add "color: @panel-fg-color;"
<ochosi> to *:hover
<ochosi> or the label/image hover
<brainwash> *:hover is ignored completely I think
<ochosi> no, at least in your screenshot the whole area around the label is drawn by *:hover
<ochosi> it just seems like the "background-color: transparent;" is broken or something
<brainwash> removed *:hover -> no changes at all
<ochosi> ok, then try to remove all the menu code and see what happens
<brainwash> ochosi: another funny thing: when I move the cursor between the panel and the opened indicator menu, icons in the menu get slightly brighter
<ochosi> yeah, that's a gtk3 feature
<ochosi> it's the same in toolbars
<brainwash> oh
<brainwash> removed the menu code, highlighting works now, background + font... but the font has an ugly shadow effect now
<brainwash> but wait a minute, you still did not setup a trusty test environment? :)
<Unit193> What do you think you're for?
<ochosi> brainwash: i have a 100gb ssd atm, which holds all my data, so no, i don't have free space
<ochosi> and +1 Unit193 
<brainwash> 100gb
<brainwash> that's huge
<ochosi> only if you're used to chromebooks
<ochosi> brainwash: apart from the text-shadow, which should be straightforward to fix, do multi-line hovers look ok as well?
<ochosi> e.g. when you use the soundmenu and have a track running in some musicplayer
<ochosi> you should get a hover effect spanning 3 lines
<ali1234> works with orion :)
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> well nice, less code is better then
<ochosi> i'll see whether i can put that together so that it works in both saucy and trusty
<ali1234> less code = fewer bugs, always
<ochosi> yeah, pretty much
<ochosi> actually we've been adding new stuff to the greeter (i'm about to merge a branch that'll fix nouveau), so if you wanna look for leaks... ;)
<sergio-br2> ochosi, i did:  git pull origin master
<sergio-br2> is it right?
<ochosi> yeah, if master is the branch you want
<sergio-br2> but there is nothing related to me in github
<sergio-br2> how can i see the commit?
<ochosi> related to you? if you want to push something, then pull isn't the correct command
<sergio-br2> humm
<ali1234> what are you actually trying to do?
<sergio-br2> but i can't push to shimmerproject
<sergio-br2> i'm trying to send a commit at elementary-xfce
<ali1234> there's multiple ways to do that
<ali1234> pull is not one of them though
<sergio-br2> haha ok
<ochosi> you can't push to the shimmerproject directly
<ochosi> the best way to get this to work is to create your own github account
<ochosi> then fork elementary-xfce (if that's what you wanna work on)
<ochosi> and then push the changes to your own repo
<Unit193> Or, git diff | pastebinit and send to ochosi. :D
<sergio-br2> hum ok. I have an account at github
<ali1234> not
<ochosi> Unit193: thanks, advocatus diavoli!
<brainwash> ochosi: looks ok, multi-line hove
<ali1234> Unit193: no, you can't do that. output of git diff cannot be applied. use git format-patch HEAD^ (after commiting) for this :)
<Unit193> Seems to work for me, but yeah, I was kidding.  It works for the code, but not attribution.
<ochosi> brainwash: ok, so removing those lines fixes everything apart from the text-shadow. i'll try to patch that after i'm done with my merge
<ali1234> hmm... well it didn't used to :)
<brainwash> ochosi: text-shadow and most likely the background color, it's a bit lighter than the blue used in whisker menu and other panel items I think
<ali1234> git diff was deliberately crippled to prevent it
<ochosi> brainwash: could you show me a screenshot of that please?
<ali1234> format-patch has the advantage of keeping the commit message and attribution
<brainwash> let me just get the color codes
<ochosi> brainwash: it's a gradient...
<ali1234> sergio-br2: https://help.github.com/articles/using-pull-requests
<ochosi> brainwash: ok, please pull from git, that should sort out most things now
<sergio-br2> ok
<ochosi> brainwash: fwiw, here whiskermenu and the indicators (and all other menus) look the same. also: whiskermenu isn't really a gtkmenu, so it's bound to look a little different...
<brainwash> ochosi: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/lelel.php
<Unit193> ali1234: Then what was even the point of git diff??
<ali1234> Unit193: it's for interactive display of changes only
<Unit193> Bleh.
<Unit193> patch -p1
<ochosi> brainwash: that looks fine. the text-shadow is already fixed in git master now
<ali1234> sergio-br2: also you may want to consider uploading a ssh key to github, it makes pushing much easier
<brainwash> ochosi: ok, the color difference is minimal
<brainwash> nobody will notice that
<ochosi> it might be the same color-diff as between gtk2 and gtk3 menus (not noticeable)
<ochosi> but yeah, whiskermenu is a different widget, so it's not impossible it looks slightly different
<brainwash> places menu also
<brainwash> I mean places menu highlight looks like the whisker one
<brainwash> it's a darker, stronger blue
<brainwash> but whatever... done :)
<ochosi> feel free to propose a patch ;)
<brainwash> no
<brainwash> but what about the other shimmer themes?
<brainwash> already patched?
<ochosi> nope, will do that another time
<ochosi> too tired now
<brainwash> ok
<brainwash> now we only need to solve the this remaining mystery: why do some indicators occupy 2 rows in deskbar mode?
<sergio-br2> i did the request, but just now i realized that 64 icons are a little bit different from 128 icons :D
<sergio-br2> subtle difference, i need my glasses
<elfy> ochosi: saw a greeter update this morning - not sure what it was for - but if it was for login corruption it didn't work here - either cold boot nor restart
<elfy> 201401142148~ubuntu14.04.1
<ochosi> elfy: no, greeter was built 10hrs ago, branch was merged 8-9hrs ago
<ochosi> elfy: i can ask for a new build now though, then you can test the fix today
<ochosi> elfy: just requested a new build now, so whenever it's ready...
<ochosi> https://code.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+archive/daily/+recipebuild/630903
<ochosi> in case you wanna monitor it
<ochosi> (but don't go crazy: http://xkcd.com/281/ )
<elfy> ochosi: LOL
<knome> hah
<christoffer> haha
<elfy> ochosi: I said to someone the other day I'm so laid back I'm a reflex angle - I'll not be doing that :p
<ochosi> :]
<knome> reminds me of the a-ha song 'move to memphis'
<ochosi> reminds me of the song "bakerman" (by laid back)
<elfy> knome: they had more than one song?
<knome> elfy, sure, many *albums* worth of songs :)
<elfy> ochosi: that works then - more or less, still get the cold boot corruption - but just for a short while after login, the bit I was most concerned about - the fragments of and old session don't show at all - thanks :)
<ochosi> elfy: cold boot corruption? could you elaborate that a bit?
<elfy> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/162094730/CAM00034.jpg
<ochosi> oh, after login, that means that it happens when the root-pixmap gets displayed for a short while between the greeter and xfdesktop loading
<elfy> yea - that's all 
<ochosi> weird
<ochosi> that looks bad though
<ochosi> and shouldn't really happen
<ochosi> have you rebooted once or twice
<elfy> the other one - the bit I was really worried about doesn't happen
<ochosi> just to be sure
<elfy> upgraded/rebooted/shutdown/reboot/shutdown and then a restart
<elfy> I agree it looks bad - but of the two issues - I know which I'd rather see
<elfy> ochosi: you want me to comment on the bug?
<ochosi> please do so
<ochosi> well i plan to fix that corruption as well, i just have to find a way to reproduce it first...
<elfy> :)
<elfy> often the hard bit I guess
<ochosi> elfy: i can reproduce the corruption when logging in â and that part also makes sense to me, as i explained earlier (nouveau mistreating the root pixmap) â but what i can't reproduce is the scrambled background at the login window
<ochosi> that one looks totally fine for me now
<brainwash> ochosi: any idea how the highlight of the play button in the indicator menu is implemented?
<ochosi> not really, feel free to look into that
<brainwash> so I took the ubuntu themes, removed the gtk3 part... and it still gets highlighted when I hover over the button
<brainwash> theme engine specific?
<ochosi> not sure
<elfy> ochosi: you've misunderstood me 
<ochosi> brainwash: first of all, i dont have any idea what weird custom widget they're using there (which would help enourmously for theming it)
<elfy> the login screen is fine - you explained the thing I see between login and the desktop
<brainwash> ochosi: ah got it, the glow is there by default, but gets overridden by greybird somewhere
<brainwash> ochosi: maybe I'll find the right element, but those css files are huge =S
<ochosi> elfy: oh, then the "screenshot" you linked to was misleading
<ochosi> brainwash: better to read the source of the soundmenu, it's not that long
<ochosi> brainwash: or even easier, use gtkparasite
<brainwash> ochosi: thanks for the hints :)
<elfy> ochosi: was just to show you what I seen between logging in and the desktop - sorry if it wasted your time
<ochosi> elfy: hehe, no problem, i'm happy as long as the issue is fixed in the greeter (which it obviously is) :)
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> elfy: the other part has to be fixed in nouveau
<elfy> k - that's fine with me 
<elfy> as far as I am concerned the most important issue is dealt with - the fragments of old sessions - not seeing them at all
<elfy> I didn't really think about it till I saw someone's e-mail address and infraction record sitting there :)
<elfy> so that's taken 250 out of the bugs heat lol 
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> well, happy i could fix it
<elfy> so am I 
<elfy> bbl 
<elfy> ochosi: thanks :)
<ochosi> np, yw :)
<brainwash> does the settings manager ignore "always on top"?
<ochosi> yeah, seems so
<brainwash> ok, thanks for confirming
<ochosi> probably because of its window-manager hints
<ochosi> in fact, the label doesnt even change when you click it
<ochosi> so it seems to be expected
<brainwash> ochosi: gtkparasite is really a nice tool
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> it is
<brainwash> used it to identify gtkwidget for bug 1268243
<ubottu> bug 1268243 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Greybird theme and Synaptic" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1268243
<brainwash> not sure how to use it for the sound menu
<ochosi> run the panel from the terminal?
<brainwash> mmh, worth a try
<brainwash> https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/blob/master/gtk-3.0/gtk-widgets.css#L2289
<brainwash> can it be changed to the toolbar background color or even none?
<brainwash> but I have no clue what this change might break :)
<ochosi> well, test it :>
<brainwash> this shade looks weird in synaptic anyway
<ochosi> imo synaptic should be fixed
<ochosi> but frankly i don't care too much as it's not installed by default anymore
<Unit193> micahg: Guess you ended up without time?  Is there anything else I can do to make the process easier?
<brainwash> ochosi: you could push the change, then we just wait until someone complains about it :D
<ochosi> brainwash: anyway, the thing you propose doesn't make sense. it's basically switching styles to a flat toolbar look
<ochosi> which would mean also changing gtk2
<ochosi> and all because synaptic has some weird elements in its toolbar
<ochosi> if you've found the widget structure, you can patch that single searchbox in synaptic, but the other way round isn't acceptable
<brainwash> ochosi: ok, the difference in other gtk3 apps seems to be noticeable
<brainwash> so the report is invalid then
<micahg> Unit193: fell asleep, where's that bug
 * knome pats micahg on the head
<brainwash> ochosi: or better won't fix
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/xubuntu-default-settings/session-fix/+merge/198177 thought knome ate it for a sec.
<knome> mm, well i did eat quite some things today
<knome> :d
<Unit193> micahg: Built, tested.
<micahg> I still wish it would clean up the old config, but I don't know offhand how it would do that
<Unit193> Same, not without sed. :/
<ochosi> micahg: you have until feature-freeze to improve the patch ;)
<ochosi> but i think we need a live-session for the time being
<micahg> yep, writing the same in my comments
<Unit193> lightdm-set-defaults is gone, which could have been used.
<ochosi> brainwash: add a synaptic-specific workaround that styles that searchbox like a toolbar is an option, but i won't do the work for that
<ochosi> s/add/adding/
<micahg> Unit193: One comment, LP: # closes bugs, not LP: unless something changed (I made the change to the main branch already)
<Unit193> Thank you.  http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/fixing-a-bug.html#documenting-the-fix agrees with you and I could have seen that by only looking at the last entry...
<Unit193> Thanks for taking a look!
<micahg> I'm also adding aline for automated translations updates to the changelog since those made their way in as well
<micahg> Unit193: uploaded, please keep an eye on regressions and ping me if something comes up
<micahg> I'll probably be hiding in -offtopic :)
<Unit193> Sure thing, will do.
<Unit193> Saaame. :P
<brainwash> ochosi: lets ignore this "bug"
<ochosi> brainwash: haha, this coming from you is just hillarious
<ochosi> usually you like to nitpick about these tiny glitches, no?
<brainwash> ochosi: any idea how to inspect the sound menu? once you've clicked the indicator, the inspector tool disappears
<ochosi> afaik, the inspector opens a new window for each plugin
<ochosi> but i haven't tested it personally in a longer time
<brainwash> secretly I'm working on greybird-flat
<ochosi> well, that's basically a merge of numix and greybird
<brainwash> numbird or greyix
<brainwash> so I get the parasite window for wrapper 2.0, but the sound menu needs to activated by mouse click
<brainwash> so the inspector tool always captures the indicator icon in the panel and not the sound menu
<ochosi> usually there were expanders to look down the widget structure (also of plugins that weren't open)
<ochosi> bbl
<brainwash> ochosi: it only captures the indicator alignment / image / label
<brainwash> ochosi: did anything strange happen to the greeter drop down menus after the recent greybird changes? :)
<brainwash> ochosi: strange icon highlighting eliminated (when cursor is moved from the opened sound menu back to the indicator icon in the panel) + play button glow http://lpaste.net/98529
<jjfrv8> knome, ping
<ochosi> brainwash: thanks for the soundmenu patch! if you wanna be in the commit-log as author, please do a merge-request on github
<ochosi> i'm not 100% sure about my stance on the gtk-image-effect story
<ochosi> so if you wanna do a merge-request, only do the menu:selected part
<brainwash> the 2nd gtk-image-effect is causing the ugly effect
<brainwash> leaving the gtk3 indicator menu and playing the cursor above the indicator highlights all icons in the menu
<brainwash> so it needs to be addressed
<brainwash> and just commit the changes you like, no need to list me as author
<jjfrv8> bbiab
<christoffer> knome, I must say that the application finder is pretty fantastic...have been missing that since Unity arrived.
<christoffer> though it doesn't find the calculator for some reason
<ochosi> christoffer: really? http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-01152014-041600pm.php
<christoffer> ochosi, I mean the <alt><f2>
<christoffer> different gui
<christoffer> but must be same application finder
<christoffer> or?
<ochosi> it only shows results as soon as they are unique
<ochosi> hitting the "arrow-down" key expands the view
<ochosi> (what you see in my screenshot)
<christoffer> aha ok
<ochosi> then you see the stuff filtered
<christoffer> though typing "calculator" and pressing enter doesn't start the application
<christoffer> even if it's unique
<ochosi> because that's not the command
<ochosi> as long as the searchglass is on the left (and no app-icon), you're executing a command
<ochosi> and the command "calculator" doesn#t exist
<christoffer> ok
<ochosi> it's gnome-calculator
<christoffer> can I expand the window with some key command?
<ochosi> arrow-down
<brainwash> christoffer: it's gnome-calculator
<brainwash> oh
<brainwash> tzzzz
<christoffer> yea that is perhaps the fastest ...rebind arrow down to something better and press <alt><f2>calculator<arrow-down><enter><enter>
<ochosi> brainwash: sound-indicator fix is pushed
<slickymaster> afternoon all
<brainwash> ochosi: and the icon thingy? any idea how to fix it properly?
<ochosi> brainwash: i'm not sure yet i see the problem you're seeing, can you describe it again plz?
<brainwash> ochosi: is the dim/highlight really needed?
<ochosi> i think it can be helpful in some contexts
<ochosi> but i don't see the problem in the indicators yet
<brainwash> ochosi: uhm, let me try to make a screencast, brb
<brainwash> ochosi: finally back, so here's the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgpWmS05iFA
<brainwash> ochosi: and you need to fix the drop down menus in the greeter, they are broken after the recent removal of menu theme code
<brainwash> text shadows once again
<ochosi> brainwash: thanks for the screencast, i understand what you mean now
<ochosi> i guess my current monitor is too bad, so i can't see it
<ochosi> (although that's a bit odd, cause i can see it in the screencast)
<ochosi> the greeter code is still in flux, so don't worry about glitches like that with daily
<ochosi> i'm trying to finalize things for a release, then i'll release a greybird version that works with it alongside
<brainwash> ochosi: did you try to load gtk3 indicators, so they are displayed in the greeter?
<brainwash> I mean, does this actually work
<brainwash> it did not for me
<knome> jjfrv8, ping
<knome> christoffer, iirc, gcalctool links to the calculator as well
<knome> i guess you could add /home/user/.bin/ to PATH and then add a symlink for 'calculator' in that dir
<christoffer> knome, gcalctool works in unity but not xubuntu
<knome> hmm, right, seems it's dropped in 13.10...
<knome> it used to work in xubuntu as well
<christoffer> gno<enter>ca<enter> is the quickest way :)
<christoffer> only adding a custom symlink for "calc" would be quicker I assume
<christoffer> =)
<christoffer> I'm actually thinking about remapping my caps-lock key...I see more and more people doing that. Not sure if it should be another <enter> or <backspace>
<christoffer> backspace is far away but when you write text/code a left hand side <enter> would be nice.
<christoffer> and just make sure you never mistype
<knome> binding it to the "open right-click/application menu" might be useful
<christoffer> yea that's another option...still leaning towards the symmetry of an extra enter key
<knome> nah, i don't think one should replicate anything
<knome> another good idea is binding it to ctrl+tab (changes tab in firefox and other apps)
<christoffer> hmm <alt Gr> might be really good to rebind 
<christoffer> when writing code
<brainwash> don't abuse the devel channel, join -offtopic :)
<knome> brainwash, there's only one response to that...
<knome> brainwash, please use -offtopic to advertise other channels
<knome> ;)
<brainwash> anyone familiar with SRU reports? we need one for bug 1222021
<ubottu> bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager does not inhibit systemd from handling buttons and lid events" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021
<brainwash> it's issue #1 in saucy, affecting many many people
<brainwash> a patched debian package won't be available anytime soon, so we will have to ship our own version in the meantime (currently available via noskcaj's PPA, link in the report)
<elfy> bluesabre: any update on menulibre - if I've gone shout at piskie instead :p
<knome> elfy, he said earlier today everything should be in debian in a week, and in ubuntu at the beginning of feb
<elfy> oh right ok - missed that 
<elfy> knome: ty 
<Unit193> Hopefully two days worth of development until it's ready though.
<knome> elfy, you couldn't have missed that; it wasn't on this channel
<elfy> oh 
<elfy> should be in this channel as well then
<knome> probably... but that happened in a middle of a different discussion
<brainwash> bluesabre, ochosi: the new parole dev version uses the "play" icon as background picture, but it lacks the functionality of a "play" button
<brainwash> people might get confused
<brainwash> scenario: you watch a video and it ends, you want to watch it again and there is this play icon in the middle of the center.. you press it, just like you would do on youtube and co, but nothing happens
<jjfrv8> knome, ping pong
<knome> jjfrv8, hello :)
<jjfrv8> Hi, a few questions?
<knome> always
<jjfrv8> about bug 1207493, I see it is marked as "fix released", does that mean it will make it into the SRU next month with no other changes?
<ubottu> bug 1207493 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu Precise) "[SRU] Documentation does not match shipped system version (11.10 shipped with 12.04)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1207493
<knome> yep
<knome> well,
<knome> there's a problem with that; the SRU is broken
<knome> we need to look at it
<knome> i will do that when i have time and then adjust the bug as needed
<jjfrv8> the problem with the initial page missing the graphics, you mean?
<knome> i guess that was it
<knome> it's probably a trivial thing to fix
<jjfrv8> skellat was stumped on how to fix it last I checked
<knome> i guess i know more of that then ;)
<jjfrv8> his PPA works but the version in -proposed does not
<knome> for me, it looks pretty straightforward (disclaimer: i haven't really looked at the package)
<jjfrv8> ok, but if you can't fix it, will it go in the way it is now?
<jjfrv8> at least the content would be correct finally
<knome> as long as we have done a new upload with the fixed package
<knome> yes, even if we didn't fix the graphical glitch, the content will be up-to-date
<jjfrv8> I can live with that
<jjfrv8> next question: no one has responded to your call on the ML yet but there were two guys who volunteered a while back
<jjfrv8> both said they had web design experience
<knome> that's barely needed, but if they are willing to help with the docs, that's good
<jjfrv8> do you think I should contact them directly to ask if they're interested in helping out with the tour and about stuff
<knome> slickymaster replied on the channel and will be working on the mugshot documentation
<knome> i've already talked with bluesabre about it as well
<knome> i also asked david to send a mail to the list to notify he's starting with that
<knome> contacting directly is good
<knome> if you do that, you can optionally CC me
<jjfrv8> will do
<jjfrv8> is whiskermenu still under consideration to replace alacarte by default?
<knome> whiskermenu is not a replacement for alacarte
<knome> menulibre is a replacement for alacarte, and as long as it is ready and landed before the feature freeze, we will be using it
<knome> whiskermenu is an optional replacement for the applications menu on the panel
<jjfrv8> I thought that was alacarte
<knome> nope :)
<knome> alacarte is a menu editor like menulibre
<knome> so that's why whiskermenu is somewhat tied to the panel layout change
<jjfrv8> but is it going to stay optional?
<knome> that's to be decided
<jjfrv8> reason I ask is that there are a lot of references to the applications menu in the current docs
<knome> if it's optional, then we need no changes in the documentation whatsoever
<jjfrv8> right
<knome> yes, i'm aware of that...
<knome> fortunately, we are using the xubuntu icon to denote the menu
<knome> so we don't need to change the wording in *too* many places
<jjfrv8> yup
<knome> as long as the categories are the same, and we use the xubuntu icon as the menu button
<knome> but the reality is
<knome> we will most probably change the panel layout anyway
<knome> with that being done, i think updating relevant parts to say whiskermenu is easy enough
<jjfrv8> any idea when it will be firmed up?
<knome> once ochosi gets a final proposal up, and we've discussed/voted on it on a team meeting
<knome> we probably should try to do that at the latest in two weeks
<jjfrv8> sounds good
<jjfrv8> is there a trusty branch yet for the docs to start working on?
<knome> yep
<knome> it's what is now lp:xubuntu-docs
<jjfrv8> I'll go ahead and pull that then
<jjfrv8> that's it for now, thanks
<knome> np :(
<knome> :) that is
<knome> tell me if you have any problems with anything
<jjfrv8> sure
<knome> or if you are concerned about running out of time to prepare docs for something, poke me and i'll try to hurry things up
<jjfrv8> k
<bluesabre> ochosi, brainwash: so much scrollback, any luck with the gtk3.10 menuitems?
<bluesabre> it also affects Numix
<brainwash> bluesabre: the gtk3 indicator menus look fine now (greybird git)
<brainwash> in trusty
<bluesabre> great!
<brainwash> just some strange icon highlighting issue remaining
<brainwash> but the recent changes to fix the indicator menus broke the drop down menus in lightdm-gtk-greeter :)
<brainwash> "broke" might be the wrong word, the fix added text shadows
<brainwash> bluesabre: did you read my concern regarding parole's background picture?
<brainwash> the "non functional" play button
<ochosi> brainwash: it's just a logo in parole. it was never intended as a playbutton (and it would be a useless duplication anyway
<brainwash> ochosi: but it looks like a play button..
<ochosi> i haven't tested the gtk3 indicators
<brainwash> ok, I'll try to debug this
<brainwash> I really want to get the gtk3 indicator menus completely fixed, do you think that the icon highlight effect can be solved differently?
<ochosi> not sure yet, i was away until now, so no new insights ;)
<brainwash> the unity themes do not use these dim/highlight effects
<ochosi> it's possible that the indicators don't work in the greeter anymore because their loading mechanism was changed
<ochosi> so basically the changes of the indicator-plugin would have to be ported to the greeter, i suppose (if they're not working now)
<ochosi> not sure i wanna open that pandora's box
<ochosi> still have lots of other things to fix in the greeter, e.g. fix wallpaper drawing in gtk2
<brainwash> mmh, true.. they removed the dbus activation and switched to upstart magic
<brainwash> ochosi: mmh, I got some more stuff to share, but I better don't bother you with more greeter glitches :)
<brainwash> so I'll try to fix it myself and provide patches or report it eventually
<ochosi> :}
<ochosi> well my todo-list for the greeter looks like this:
<ochosi> 1) fix gtk2 wallpapers (so that we're in release-ready state again)
<ochosi> 2) finish language-menu patch
<ochosi> and anyway, according to someone on the ML, the greeter's biggest glitch is that its "ascetics"(sic!) look "ugy"(sic!)
<brainwash> -> 2) really show "en_US" or just "en"?
<ochosi> "en_US" ofc
<brainwash> ok
<ochosi> it already works, it just doesn't get updated properly when switching users via the combobox
<brainwash> yeah, nothing bad about the full string "en_US", but usually it gets shortened to just "en" (gnome-screensaver,..)
<knome> do you think there is any reason why we couldn't just show the two first letters?
<knome> (eg. drop the countrycode)
<ochosi> knome: well since the menu offers all of those choices, it seems weird not to show them
<ochosi> e.g. if you only have english installed, you still get 4 or 5 options
<knome> sure... but isn't the menu also able to show the selected one?
<ochosi> and in case you care about using en_AU for some reason, it'd be quite the usability loss to cut those two chars
<knome> i rather see "fi" than "fi_FI"
<ochosi> the menu always shows the selected one
<ochosi> yeah, but the default is "fi"
<ochosi> or "en"
<knome> (because, being honest, there is no "fi" outside "FI")
<knome> aha
<ochosi> only variants get country-codes
<ochosi> so normally, it'd say "en" or "de" or "fi", unless you use a specific variant
<ochosi> and then i think it's ok to show them
<knome> i'm still not sure why the countrycode is really important
<ochosi> currency and units
<ochosi> (for the more international languages)
<knome> right, but it's a selection you pretty much do once
<knome> and then forget about it
<knome> example: jackson uses en_AU, and keeps on using it.
<knome> also, what if all of my locale strings aren't fi?
<knome> or, en
<knome> don't seem to have that setup on the laptop, but on my desktop, the main locale is en, but some units are fi
<knome> the greeter is failing to show me that anyway!
<knome> (and no, i don't think that's a completely rare setup, many people want the interface in english but units in other language)
<knome> so basically, that item is only able to show, what, LANG/LANGUAGE
<knome> so your argument on "being able to know which units are in use" is faulty
<knome> because that tells nothing about the units
<knome> feel free to prove me wrong.
<brainwash> how about a vote in the next meeting
<knome> i don't think we need a vote, we need a sane choice
<bluesabre> sane choice is whatever the language code is specified as
<brainwash> both are valid options
<bluesabre> we should take what we get and pass it along
<bluesabre> en_US -> en_US
<bluesabre> (my opinion anyway) ;)
<knome> bluesabre, from my pov, the problem with that thinking is that it implies more things than it possibly may be
<knome> in my desktop, example using en_GB would imply i'm using british units
<brainwash> make it configurable :P
<knome> even if in fact, i'm using finnish
<knome> bluesabre, what can we learn from this?
<knome> bluesabre, we can be sure the shown string can only imply the *language*
<bluesabre> knome does not like his native toungue
<knome> do you need an example why?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-01-16
<knome> double-click the desktop
<bluesabre> nope
<knome> = napsauta tyÃ¶pÃ¶ytÃ¤Ã¤ hiiren oikealla painikkeella
<bluesabre> but en_US is different than en_GB
<bluesabre> Trash Can vs Rubbish Bin
<knome> yes, but both have a shared language name: English
<bluesabre> ok, another example, chinese
<knome> sure, but if the menu shows the selected language when opened, why show almost 100% the time redundant information?
<bluesabre> to know what variant you have at a glance without opening the menu?
<bluesabre> probably handy for translators
<knome> how many people use several variants of a single language?
<bluesabre> ^
<knome> so we are designing the default greeter for translators, not users?
 * knome facepalms
<bluesabre> what real benefit is there to not showing the locale?
<knome> less clutter
<knome> what real benefir is there to show the locale?
<knome> currently, we're showing an icon
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> I have a good reason now
<bluesabre> input method
<knome> shoot
<knome> is that tied to the locale+
<knome> ?
<bluesabre> dunno
<knome> i mean, can't you have a northern chinese input method even if you are using the finnish language?
<knome> sure you can.
<bluesabre> changes the keyboard layout though
<knome> umm,
<knome> not sure if even that is true
<knome> or, 
<knome> if it can't be unlinked
<knome> language is language
<knome> locale is locale
<knome> input method is input method
<knome> and yes, you guessed it,
<knome> keyboard layout is keyboard layout
<knome> they barely have nothing to do with each other
<knome> except that *usually*, you don't mix them (too much)
<bluesabre> while I was working at the college, there were some international students with key locations swapped because of their locale
<bluesabre> so they would bring it in and we wouldn't be able to type correctly
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> i'm not saying locale can't affect the rest of the stuff
<knome> whether it should... that's debatable
<knome> in most cases, it makes sense
<bluesabre> I'm just saying that it can be a usability visual cue
<knome> bluesabre, tell me (unrelated)
<knome> why does my power button just switch the pc off
<knome> when power button is pressed: nothing
<knome> in xfce4-power-manager
<bluesabre> thats a known bug
<knome> and, how do i fix it
<bluesabre> and I bet Unit193 can find it faster than me!
<bluesabre> there's currently no fix I believe
<knome> any workaround?
<knome> that sucks.
<bluesabre> unless there is one downstream in suse
<Unit193> Not likely, right?  I'm bit busy. :P
<knome> i'm used to use that to open the logout menu
<knome> uuuuuniiiiiit
<Unit193> /etc/systemd/logind.conf 
<bluesabre> bbiab, dinner time
<knome> Unit193, and the workaround? :P
<knome> brb
<knome> ok, i fixed that
<knome> no
<knome> i didn't
<knome> well the button is ignored now
<ochosi> knome: i was away, but i really think the discussion is a bit ridiculous, given that we're talking about 2 vs. 4 chars
<knome> ochosi, we've had discussions about single pixels
<ochosi> anyhow, as bluesabre and me seem to be both ok with passing along whatever we get from lightdm, i think we'll go with that
<knome> my opinion will be smelly
<knome> :P
<ochosi> i also don't feel like doing string-operations on that and then maybe failing or showing misleading info
<ochosi> yeah, feel free to report a bug against lightdm ;)
<ochosi> and i have to admit i've become weary of single-pixel discussions
<knome> as long as you accept that you might be offering misleading information with showing everything as well.
<ochosi> no, i reject that in fact
<ochosi> then you can say that the menu is offering misleading choices
<knome> sure.
<ochosi> and if you do that, go complain to lightdm
<ochosi> it has nothing to do with the greeter
<knome> except if the menu overrides all settings
<ochosi> so it's simply an invalid bugreport
<ochosi> not sure what you're talking about now
<knome> nvm.
<ochosi> and even less so, how that is related to changing the flag to the code
<knome> fix my stupid power key.
<ochosi> use the stupid PPA with the fix
<knome> where the stupid PPA is
<knome> :P
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> it's one of Noskcaj's
<ochosi> and has powermanager in its name i think
 * knome sighs
<knome> brb
<knome> yay for Noskcaj
<knome> now meh
<bluesabre> oh good, it resolved itself :)
<knome> me?
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> alrighty, menulibre time
<ochosi> brainwash: so 1) and 2) are fixed
<ochosi> waiting for your patches :>
 * Noskcaj heard knome was discussing en_AU.
<ochosi> :}
<Noskcaj> now if i can just find the old translation script
<ochosi> Noskcaj: for clarification: it was about the latest commit to the greeter, which shows the language code instead of the flag-icon now
<Noskcaj> I saw. It's a good thing to change
<ochosi> yup, greeter received lots of love in the last weeks
<brainwash> ochosi: oh, I planned to look at the new issues somewhat soon, but let me mention them here 1) when you enable larger fonts via menu, the menus are drawn partially offscreen 2) reverting to normal font size does not rescale the top panel and login box properly 3) the onboard window cannot be closed via its "X" button
<ochosi> brainwash: ok, waiting for those patches then :)
<knome> hey ochosi,
<ochosi> oy knome 
<knome> have you planned to run moderation on ~xubuntu-art proposed members?
<ochosi> hmm, i can do that
<ochosi> so far i've always rejected all members and sent them an email asking them to introduce themselves
<knome> for your convenience: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Toolbox/Messages
<ochosi> no-one ever repliked
<knome> but, if you have another template, you could add it there as well
<ochosi> replied
<knome> yeah, i'm not surprised ;)
<ochosi> mkay, will take a look at how many are pending atm
<knome> just asked because one recently popped up
<ochosi> btw, if you wanna test the greeter language menu (and get angry at it again ;)), you can use the greeter's daily ppa, i pushed it yesterday night
<knome> your way is probably better than the short, general message
<knome> i probably should, and look if i can get what i want with changing LC_IDENTIFICATION
<knome> though i guess not
<ochosi> up to you
<ochosi> but don't complain after 14.04 is released ;)
<knome> well, if the "default" locale for a language is two-letter, i don't personally have a problem
<ochosi> ok, then i guess it's fine
<ochosi> ok, only one pending member, sent msg
<slickymaster> morning all
<slickymaster> bluesabre: you around?
<bluesabre> hey slickymaster: just got here
<slickymaster> bluesabre: dou you have a minute or two to talk about mugshot docs?
<bluesabre> sure, works for me
<bluesabre> tbh, I haven't really thought much about it.  Mugshot already has some mallard documentation in its repository, so you might able to use that as a starting point
<slickymaster> well, My first question would be exactly that
<slickymaster> is the documentation intended to be made on mallard, dockbook,...?
<bluesabre> I think I might do what xfce does and use dokuwiki (since I've already been getting familiar with it)
<slickymaster> to me that would be great, since I've never worked with Mallard and I have no problems with dokuwiki
<ochosi> yeah, i think dokuwiki is a great choice
<ochosi> nicer learning curve imo :)
<ochosi> and to the worst you can use html for offline docs
<slickymaster> if knome won't object to it, I' would bo for dokuwiki
<bluesabre> heh
<slickymaster> exactly ochosi 
<bluesabre> its my project, what's he going to say about it :P
 * bluesabre hides
<slickymaster> yeah, we'll showing who's the boss
 * slickymaster also hides
<slickymaster> bluesabre: can you provide me the mugshot repository link, so I can take a look at the already existing docs?
<bluesabre> slickymaster: https://code.launchpad.net/~mugshot-dev/mugshot/trunk
<bluesabre> you'll find the docs under ./help/C
<slickymaster> oh, it's in LP
<slickymaster> good
<slickymaster> btw bluesabre, you mentioned here, the other day, something about the help button. Were you referring to big 1229205
<slickymaster> bug 1229205 ^^
<ubottu> bug 1229205 in Mugshot "Help button results in Document not found" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1229205
<bluesabre> slickymaster: I was originally going to remove that button, but since you'll be updating the docs, I'll update that button to open the online docs
<slickymaster> bluesabre: will you set up everything at http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php for the mugshot docs, or do you want me to?
<bluesabre> slickymaster: if you're able to, please do
<bluesabre> I think I made you an admin, so you have free reign
<slickymaster> do I have permissions to set up a new namespace?
<bluesabre> I think so
<slickymaster> ok
<slickymaster> that's all I think
<slickymaster> thanks
<bluesabre> I made you an admin, you might have to log out/in
<knome> bluesabre, slickymaster: as i've said, i don't mind how the upstream docs are written... but we'll want some portions of it in docbook for the xubuntu docs
<bluesabre> right
<bluesabre> but thats a different project altogether :)
<knome> yep
<bluesabre> btw HI knome!
<slickymaster> knome: can't it be ported afterwards?
<knome> but just that you both acknowledge that we need that as well
<knome> slickymaster, most definitely
<knome> hello bluesabre ;)
<slickymaster> and a good morning knome 
<slickymaster> even though it's almost lunch time :P
<knome> morning slickymaster 
<knome> yeah, it's definitely lunch time
<knome> i was just thinking what i'd eat
<knome> we haven't got much in the fridge, so i might not have many options
<slickymaster> bbl ->
<brainwash> ochosi: can you fix the greeter menu text shadows too please?
<brainwash> git/master
<elfy> hi brainwash 
<ochosi> yeah yeah, i said i'll do that when i'm done with the greeter
<elfy> and you too :)
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<brainwash> hi elfy 
<ochosi> i'm already practically done with the session-menu, but i wanna support as many sessions as possible
<brainwash> how many does unity-greeter support?
<ochosi> not so many
<brainwash> doesn't it simply display the session .desktop icon?
<ochosi> no
<ochosi> unity-greeter has a weird custom system
<ochosi> i implemented a more standard-compliant version
<ochosi> they use pngs, i use symbolic svgs
<ochosi> they use /usr/share/unity-greeter/*_badge.png, i use /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/places
<brainwash> but how do you determine which icon to use?
<ochosi> so actually ppl can add support for their session by adding icons to their icon-theme
<ochosi> gtk_image_set_from_icon_name (GTK_IMAGE(session_badge), g_strdup_printf ("%s_badge-symbolic", current_session),
<ochosi> fallback is the gear-icon
<brainwash> mmh, ok
<ochosi> anyway, i might push things as they are now and i can add support for more sessions later easily
<brainwash> what about the mixed session like Gnome/openbox?
<ochosi> depending on what session-string they set, they get an icon (or fallback if there's no match)
<ochosi> so it's not the greeter's responsibility in fact, but the session's
<brainwash> ok
<ochosi> brainwash: how many sessions do you have installed now?
<ochosi> zequence: ping
<brainwash> ochosi: most
<ochosi> ok, then i'm looking forward to you testing the session-menu :)
<sergio-br2> hello everybory
<brainwash> I'll add MATE too, should be available via ubuntu's repo now
<sergio-br2> ochosi, elementary-xfce is still based on elementary?
<ochosi> brainwash: don't have a mate-badge yet
<knome> ochosi, how does one test the greeter then
<ochosi> knome: add the lightdm-gtk-greeter daily PPA
<ochosi> sergio-br2: well yes, kinda. i manually merge stuff from upstream, if it doesn't mess with the consistency. but there is no real automatic sync anymore
<brainwash> so changes are already merged?
<ochosi> brainwash: not yet
<ochosi> i need a few more minutes
<sergio-br2> ochosi, so i can use icons from there?
<ochosi> and then i need to manually trigger a rebuild of the PPA, so don't expect anything before 1hr or so from now
<brainwash> alright
<ochosi> sergio-br2: you can, as long as you provide a consistent look across all sizes
<brainwash> the new square terminal icon looks stupid in deskbar mode, forgot to mention this before
<brainwash> a terminal is not meant to be square
<brainwash> ochosi: do you like the new terminal icon?
<sergio-br2> are there other icon theme similar to elementary-xfce?
<ochosi> sergio-br2: there are others based on elementary, like ubuntu's humanity, but to be frank, it's quite unmaintained for a long time. so there's nothing worth mentioning that i know of
<ochosi> brainwash: i just fixed it, personally i don't care so much about every li
<ochosi> li'l icon
<ochosi> i merge icons from elementary upstream that are consistent
<ochosi> and i don't mind square icons
<sergio-br2> ochosi, could you see later if my pull is right? just a feedback
<brainwash> ochosi: I don't suggest changing it, so I'll just revert it locally
<ochosi> sergio-br2: yeah, it looks ok technically, still gotta review the icons
<sergio-br2> ok
<ochosi> sergio-br2: don't have much time now, so i just looked at calculator and that looks fine!
<sergio-br2> i tried to align somethings to pixel unity, so it fit better when is converted to png
<ochosi> yeah, you always have to align everything to the grid
<ochosi> otherwise -> fuzzy mess
<sergio-br2> are any plan to use 256 pixel icons? 
<ochosi> we can add them, but they're not used in xfce anywhere
<ochosi> i've been maintaining that icon theme pretty much alone for a long time now
<zequence> ochosi: pong
<ochosi> and i don't have so much time for it with all the other things i'm working on
<sergio-br2> elementary-xfce?
<ochosi> yes
<ochosi> zequence: what greeter does ubuntu-studio use? unity or lightdm-gtk?
<zequence> lightdm-gtk
<ochosi> zequence: and do you install a session-badge for unity-greeter?
<zequence> ochosi: What's that?
<ochosi> zequence: ok, i guess not then :}
<ochosi> it's a white png of the studio-logo
<zequence> ah
<ochosi> goes into /usr/share/unity-greeter/
<zequence> hmm, no I don't think we have added that yet
<ochosi> thing is that i've added support for session-badges in the lightdm-gtk-greeter just now (about to merge it)
<ochosi> and i added a badge for you guys as well, but i need to know the name of your session
<ochosi> the unity-badge would've been one way of easily finding that out
<zequence> it's "ubuntustudio"
<ochosi> oh, cool, you know it
<ochosi> these are the badges i've added so far: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-01162014-032426pm.php
<zequence> Looks good :)
<ochosi> in case it's not clear what i'm talking about: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-01162014-013359pm.php
<zequence> Ok, so the session is chosen from the top bar
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> that was also the case before
<ochosi> so that's not a new change or anything
<ochosi> before it just showed a generic gear-icon
<ochosi> (and still does, if you use gtk2 or a session that has no badge)
<ali1234> ochosi: did you ever want to make a theme where the active/inactive borders are a different size?
<ali1234> because i am going to make that possible
<ali1234> actually, forget that idea, it would mean patching half the source files
<ali1234> however, you can have different sized corners :)
<ochosi> ali1234: sounded interesting :)
<ochosi> i guess it's not possible until xfwm4 is gtk3, but support for the dark_theme setting could also be nice
<ali1234> i dunno what that means
<ochosi> apps can ask gtk3 for a dark theme variant
<ochosi> so the whole UI of e.g. video-players, image-viewers goes dark
<ali1234> hmm
<ochosi> not exactly a prime example of UI consistency ;)
<ochosi> has caused some flamewars, but i can still see the point to some extent
<ochosi> (greybird doesn't feature a dark variant on purpose not to have that weird bright window-border in xfce)
<pmjdebruijn> that makes sense :)
<pmjdebruijn> should be everything or nothing :)
<ochosi> says the guy who made darktable use a custom dark gtkrc file? :D
<ochosi> ok, so the session-menu has been pushed and a PPA rebuild is queued
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: touche
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: we actually tried to hint the gnome3 wm with the gtk3 dark reques thint, but it didn't work :)
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: and more importantly, darktable is meant to be used fullscreen anyhow :D
<pmjdebruijn> </copout>
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: i'm surprised it didn't work with mutter, usually it should work fine with dark themes...
<pmjdebruijn> the hint is only easy to set with gtk3
<pmjdebruijn> we briefly tried to kludge it with gtk2, but we didn't bother investing too much time
<ochosi> ah right, darktable is still gtk2 :/
<pmjdebruijn> indeed
<pmjdebruijn> we're porting slowly
<pmjdebruijn> latest release has all the gtk3 changes that don't break gtk2
<pmjdebruijn> now we're working on the gtk2 breaking changes for the next major release :)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> sounds nice
<ochosi> isn't porting just a lot of fun...
<pmjdebruijn> yeah, we're lucky to have a contributor do it for us :)
<pmjdebruijn> but contributing a gtk2/gtk3 port sortof makes him a core dev :)
<ochosi> indeed
<ochosi> ali1234: i forgot to paste that before, here's an example of an app using the gtk3 dark style: http://www.deviantart.com/art/gthumb-never-looked-sexier-426981212
<ochosi> brainwash: greeter should be built and greybird has been fixed
<ochosi> i guess i'll modify the greeter theme more heavily before the release, but this should be ok for testing now
<brainwash> ok, I'll test it later today
<ochosi> i'd be interested in which badges work :}
<knome> ochosi, is the xfce session badge supposed to work with whatever version is in PPA now?
<le_prof> pardon for interrupting, but as one who admins a small subnet of laptops with Pentium M processors, how complicated is it to include the code that fakes the PAE reporting for the new kernels?
<le_prof> upgrades have become a huge time sink...:-(
<knome> include the code where?
<le_prof> in the install program
<knome> won't do that for the main xubuntu images, but it should be pretty trivial to add that to a remastered image
<le_prof> I get that...there is still an awful lot of older hardware out there though...and not all are capable
<knome> yes, and since people usually only need to install one system.. it's barely a problem
<knome> there are images prebuilt for lubuntu with fake-pae
<knome> Unit193, tell us how hard it would be to modify any existing ISO and patch it with fake-pae
<knome> Unit193, with a script, that is
<le_prof> ! musta missed that...BBL
<ubottu> le_prof: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ochosi> knome: no, it uses the fallback until you send me the badge and i svg it
<knome> :P
<knome> ok
<knome> i'm pretty sure i have it as svg
<ochosi> ok, then send it to me in 16px
<ochosi> bbl
<knome> yes yes, when i'm on my desktop :P
<brainwash> ochosi: so all the standalone wm session entries fall back to cog icon, like expected
<brainwash> lubuntu does not show its icon
<brainwash> the ubuntu icon is to grey-ish
<brainwash> too
<ochosi> brainwash: ok, so lubuntu has a different session name then. and the ubuntu icon needs some fixes. feel free to add icons for standalone sessions in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/places
<brainwash> you really want to add icons for the basic wm only sessions?
<brainwash> icons for cinnamon and so on would be nice
<brainwash> the popular/major desktop environemts
<brainwash> I'm not sure how to reproduce it, but I was always able to move the top panel twice already
<elfy> brainwash: do you remember what the bug was that caused this? http://imagebin.org/287051
<elfy> yay got live image working - now to track down all the myriad dupes
<brainwash> elfy: xfdesktop --reload  fixed this, right?
<elfy> no - didn't know what it was - just really checking that the iso loaded now
<elfy> closed it again now - but I'll look later to see if it does
<brainwash> so try to reload it
<elfy> not now - just got in
<brainwash> :D
<elfy> bbl
<brainwash> the daily iso already ships xfdesktop4 4.11.2
<brainwash> let me find my own bug report
<brainwash> elfy: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10605
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10605 in General "Desktop icons/labels are not properly themed after login" [Normal,New]
<brainwash> eric_the_idiot: ^
<brainwash> got a possible fix which I could test?
<knome> ochosi, ygm
<elfy> brainwash: yea - that's it - is there a LP one for it?
<brainwash> elfy: no, haven't seen one yet
<elfy> ok - well I'll do one at some point then if it's necessary - particularly prior to us testing A2 next week - easier if there is one there - cuts down on dupes sometimes
<brainwash> add it to the know issues list
<brainwash> known
<elfy> well you'd best do that then - I've not seen any known issue list
<elfy> you seem to know about one :)
<brainwash> didn't the A1 announcement page have one?
<elfy> that would have done yes
<elfy> thought you meant a sensible list that everyone knew about
<brainwash> so A2 will still lack most of the new stuff?
<elfy> who knows
<elfy> I don't
<brainwash> including possible panel layout changes and gtk3 indicators
<brainwash> :/
<elfy> well - not completely sure when the image gets frozen other than soon
<elfy> but I would have to assume at this point - the answer to that is a no
<elfy> the next milestone will be the end of February
<elfy> so - I'd have to hope we get all these things in by then at least
<knome> brainwash, things will move forward faster if more people are helping
<brainwash> more people with merge/upload permissions are needed :/
<knome> yes, but more people can help get stuff into sponsorship queues, create patches/diffs etc to improve the situation even without new uploaders
<knome> whining doesn't, unfortunately, help
<knome> otherwise we would have gotten a lot more things done in the past and during this cycle
<elfy> perhaps people knowing about that stuff can pass on the information to those who don't for the things that they could do 
<elfy> sponsorship queues etc
<elfy> back at 7
<knome> sure... but won't do it unless asked, because it's a waste of time to tell people who are unwilling to help
<elfy> of course
<brainwash> knome: I mean it's currently not that easy to test the daily iso and contribute with patches/fixes
<brainwash> if the tester is required to use all the PPAs
<knome> i understand
<brainwash> :)
<elfy> brainwash: that said - people testing the daily iso are testing it - warts and all
<elfy> those wanting to test with the ppa's know - they got told
<ali1234> so i just finished implementing support for gtk 3.10 header bar apps in xfwm
<knome> so...
<knome> we should have a meeting :P
<ali1234> it's ready for testing if yer brave
<knome> who's here?
<elfy> o/
<ali1234> o/ obviously
<elfy> hi ali1234 - didn't see you there :p
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 16 19:09:39 2014 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jjfrv8> o/
<knome> !team | meeting time
<ubottu> meeting time: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<lderan> Hello
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<knome> #subtopic Open action items
<knome> #action ali1234 follows up on gtk3 indicator status 
<meetingology> ACTION: ali1234 follows up on gtk3 indicator status
<knome> isn't that all done now?
<ali1234> not as far as i know
<knome> aha, so what are we missing?
<ali1234> well we're missing indicators that work at all in trusty
<ali1234> the upstart stuff is still a blocker
<ali1234> this affects unity too of course
<ali1234> it's up to them to fix it
<knome> okay
<knome> then let's carry on with that
<ali1234> afaik nothing has changed with that since last time
<knome> ok
<knome> #action elfy and knome/ochosi to discuss lightlocker testing - perhaps include old post install testing in that 
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy and knome/ochosi to discuss lightlocker testing - perhaps include old post install testing in that
<ali1234> we have all our ducks in a row afaik
<knome> tbd
<knome> elfy did discuss the future of -testers with me
<knome> #info for now, we will keep -testers, but make the members expire every 6 months unless they extend their membership manually
<knome> #action ochosi and knome to come up with more testing stuff later (within a week)
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi and knome to come up with more testing stuff later (within a week)
<knome> well, ochosi did
<knome> but let's carry on, we will still prepare even more stuff
<knome> #action knome to be in touch with people re Tech Lead position 
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to be in touch with people re Tech Lead position
<knome> tbd
<knome> ....aaaand i've got the session fix uploaded
<knome> #action ochosi to follow up on xfce 4.12 release with nick and report back 
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to follow up on xfce 4.12 release with nick and report back
<elfy> yep - ty knome 
<knome> ochosi doesn't seem to be around, so carrying that
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> please use #info and #action as appropriate
<elfy> you want mine
<knome> (and you're free to go!)
<elfy> #info Called for Xubuntu Application package tests this week
<elfy> #info Preparing call for Alpha 2 for next week
<elfy> #info Calls have been going out to xubuntu-testers for most of the cycle
<elfy> #info Have been noticing new names on the package tracker reports - so one of the calls is working - perhaps it's that call
<elfy> #info 32bit image tests in the last 7 days = 9 ; 64bit same period = 3
<elfy> #info package testing 'appear's to receive more constant testing
<elfy> #info package testing 'appear's to receive more constant testing
<elfy> #info xubuntu-qa checking/improving/fixing testcases for each package call prior to call
<elfy> #action Xubuntu-QA - what is blocking https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1256898 , contact team where necessary
<meetingology> ACTION: Xubuntu-QA - what is blocking https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1256898 , contact team where necessary
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1256898 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Test Needed : xfce4 session handling" [Undecided,In progress]
<elfy> done
<jjfrv8> #info knome helped jjfrv8 update blueprint for t-docs
<jjfrv8> #info knome sent a call to the ML for doc contributors
<knome> #info knome helped ochosi updated blueprint for t-features
<knome> -d
<knome> :P
<jjfrv8> #info knome volunteered to look into the graphics problem with bug 1207493
<ubottu> bug 1207493 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu Precise) "[SRU] Documentation does not match shipped system version (11.10 shipped with 12.04)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1207493
<jjfrv8> done
<knome> #info knome has worked with improving the website, and we're getting nearer to release
<elfy> #action  knome to look into the graphics problem with bug 1207493
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to look into the graphics problem with bug 1207493
<knome> #info knome updated the website content a bit
<knome> i've put that on my todo for today
<knome> anything else?
<elfy> not here
<jjfrv8> me neither
<elfy> aah
<knome> i know ochosi did things, but since he's not here, let's let him do the updates later
<lderan> #info we have the first autopilot test for xubuntu merged
<knome> oh yay
<elfy> knome: A2 due next week - I suspect we'll get a mail from Kate, if it looks like I've not seen it can you answer - not sure what time I'm about early next week
<knome> #info ochosi and bluesabre worked on the lightdm-gtk-greeter
<elfy> lderan: sorry forgot that :(
<knome> elfy, iirc, kate hasn't signed up for that release task, but yep, somebody will be in touch with us
<elfy> ta
<lderan> elfy, its okay :)
<elfy> #action xubuntu-qa to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-qa to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
<elfy> knome: how do you undo?
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x1a406d0>
<elfy> #action lderan to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
<meetingology> ACTION: lderan to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
<knome> heh ;)
<elfy> knome: ta :)
<knome> np
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> nothing from me
<knome> well,
<knome> #info A2 next week
<knome> that's it
<knome> anything else?
<elfy> nope
<jjfrv8> nah
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic Enabling more people to push to Xubuntu branches
<knome> #info Carrying on, right people aren't around
<knome> #subtopic Social media outlet interaction
<knome> #info Carrying on, right people aren't around
<knome> #subtopic Status of Bluetooth in Xubuntu
<knome> yes, you guessed it:
<knome> #info Carrying on, right people aren't around
<knome> #subtopic Discuss documentation translations 
<knome> there's a few things i want to discuss about, but we might want to have *more* people around
<knome> anyway:
<knome> what's our translation cut-off pergentage?
<knome> eg. if a language is translated less than n%, it's not included; what should n be?
<ali1234> depends on the language
<jjfrv8> fraid I don't have an informed opinion
<knome> ali1234, in which way would it depend on the language?
<ali1234> like en_GB could be 1% done and still completely fine
<ali1234> since 99% of strings probably don't need any translation in that case
<knome> en_GB users could be able to read en_US to being with
<ali1234> exactly
<knome> (so why ship the 1% translation?)
<ali1234> because the 1% might include every single string that actually is different
<ali1234> ie it can be 1% done according to metrics and 100% done in reality
<ali1234> this is a corner case anyway :)
<knome> we're getting into translation technicalities, but in that case, the 99% should be translated with exactly the same strings
<knome> but yes, we need more people to discuss that one
<knome> another question
<elfy> wouldn't this discussion be better served with some data/numbers
<knome> do we want to automatically guess the users language, or would we be fine with just showing an english startpage with a list of languages the documentation is shipped in
<knome> elfy, what kind of numbers?
<elfy> % of translation in languages now
<knome> some data: 80% seems to be a relatively standard cut-off
<knome> finnish 100%
<knome> occitan 17%
<elfy> automatically guessing is ok - but assumes that the user is using the language we guess at
<knome> russian 84%
<knome> spanish 50%
<knome> portugues 50%
<knome> err
<knome> 100% :P
<elfy> lol
<knome> i don't know how that helps in deciding though
<elfy> :)
<knome> the cut-off percentage is something the translators should *aim* at
<knome> and we still have time to tell them what it is
<knome> and they still have time to reach that
<ali1234> i think it also depends which 50% is translated
<elfy> because without some data - all we're going to do is flail about guessing 
<elfy> how would we "or would we be fine with just showing an english startpage with a list of languages the documentation is shipped in"
<knome> since it will be an automated process, we can't decide on "what is translated"
<knome> elfy, that's actually the easier way...
<elfy> then it's going to always be a guess - so why not just do what others do
<knome> i don't know what others do :)
<knome> with the list, it's not a guess
<elfy> if someone wants it in Occitan - then point them to how
<knome> the user can either go to the english or occitan language
<knome> re: data or not,
<elfy> I'm talking about the other 83%
<elfy> knome> some data: 80% seems to be a relatively standard cut-off
<elfy> so why not just do what others do
<knome> i don't think it should matter if we have data or not...
<elfy> ^^
<knome> if we get say 10 more languages in by lowering the cut-off % to 10, what does that matter if they are only 10% translated
<knome> because that's really little
<knome> otoh requiring 100% is a bit... too tight :)
<knome> yeah, i'm fine with 80%
<elfy> yep
<knome> the other option is anything > 0%
<knome> the other relatively meaningful
<ali1234> shipping the incomplete translations might encourage people to work on them
<knome> we're not moderating the translations though...
<knome> so allowing 1% translations might give us some unwanted results, like spam
<knome> if nobody happened to look at the translations
<ali1234> yeah there's that too
<knome> so it does encourage to pump up the percentage
<knome> 10-20% starts to be quite a lot to translate without being serious
<knome> (75-150 strings)
<ali1234> how easy is it for people to get the not-shipped translations?
<elfy> how about finding the % translated for those over 60% then looking at those first
<knome> elfy, looking in what sense? moderating?
<knome> elfy, or including?
<elfy> including
<knome> ali1234, it's possible, but the regular user who needs the translation in his own language probably won't be able to do that very easilt
<knome> *easily
<elfy> surpised that spanish is 50% 
<knome> ali1234, and then there's actually building the translation with the .po file....
<knome> elfy, so, are you suggesting 60% as the cut-off percent?
<knome> elfy, or, suggesting that nearer to the end of the cycle, see if 60% would make sense?
<elfy> the second 
<knome> okay
<knome> #info elfy suggests considering 60%
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x17f4c10>
<knome> #info elfy suggests considering 60% as the translations cut-off percentage
<knome> those are/were the two biggest questions i had
<elfy> but it is just a guess - based on 50% Spanish surprising me 
<knome> lol
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting 
<GridCube> :/ im sorry abuot that
<knome> so A2 is next week
<knome> do we want to move the meeting for wed?
<elfy> GridCube: lol 
<elfy> knome: ok with me
<knome> or even tue?
<jjfrv8> either is okay with me
<knome> i guess that wouldn't make much sense actually
<elfy> I'm good with any day at this time - just not much time here between now and Tues/Wed
<knome> we should even make it well before the freeze, or then just thu
<elfy> then stay with Thursday - and make the one before the next milestone more about B1 perhaps
<knome> iirc, the freeze for A1 was moved to mon/tue/wed
<knome> but can't remember which
<knome> #info Next meeting: Thu, Jan 23 at 19UTC
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 16 19:45:32 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-01-16-19.09.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-01-16-19.09.html
<lderan> \o/
<knome> thanks
<knome> bbl
<elfy> cya
<brainwash> so we got a working replacement for gnome-system-tools aka users-admin aka "users and groups"?
<brainwash> the new gnome version depends on the gnome settings manager and does not allow to configure groups
<elfy> in what way configure?
<brainwash> and can anyone confirm that bug 1016932 is still around? 13.10/14.04
<ubottu> bug 1016932 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "Setting user as administrator doesn't give him sudoing rights" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1016932
<brainwash> elfy: kicking users out of groups, or create new groups
<brainwash> this stuff
<brainwash> configure like in "manage"
<elfy> I can move people in and out of groups ok here 
<elfy> not tried to create new ones
<brainwash> nono, xubuntu still ships the old gnome version
<brainwash> which is not maintained anymore
<elfy> oh right
<brainwash> the new version is crippled and required the gnome settings manager
<brainwash> requires
<brainwash> not an option for us
<brainwash> mate-users-admin could be one
<ali1234> "whatever ubuntu uses" since they are forking all that stuff
<elfy> no idea I'm afraid
<brainwash> it's basically the same application
<brainwash> but maintained I guess
<brainwash> and the mate desktop environment will be available in the ubuntu repos starting with 14.04 I think
<ali1234> https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-system-tools/pull/7
<elfy> night
<brainwash> looks promising
<brainwash> "The MATE user admin program (mate-users-admin), when setting a userâs type to âAdministrativeâ, does not add the user to the âsudoâ group. The workaround is to explicitly add the user to the sudo group."
<brainwash> :/
<brainwash> no one cares to fix this
<knome> there's a new tool pretty much ready
<knome> but it's still hidden.
<Unit193> knome: In theory not hard at all, but I've stayed very far away from the fake-pae stuff.  I like the docs landing page idea as well.
<knome> Unit193, do you have time now to mull over the docs stuff?
<Unit193> I'm going to be making coffee, but otherwise..
 * genii sips
<knome> Unit193, well i can wait for you to come back :P
<Unit193> Alrighty-o.
<Unit193> Shoot
<knome> well, the translation stuff
<knome> and packaging
<knome> and modifying the startpage
<Unit193> OK, so the startpage is something I Just tossed up to have links.  Packaging wouldn't be too hard for the second method, already did that one, and translations are easy.
<knome> how would you show the links?
<knome> full language names?
<knome> language codes?
<knome> on the start-start page, or a subpage for that?
<Unit193> 1. No idea.  2. If so, of course translated.  3. Could do, or flags. :P  4. Why subpage?
<knome> noooo flaaaaags
<Unit193> :D
<Unit193> OK, changed my script to add them if they are above 80% complete now.
<knome> okay
<knome> did you have a ppa or something for that package?
<Unit193> Nope.
<knome> even the "something"?
<Unit193> Thought something = repo, but I have it uploaded.  Recreating it now, just a sec (fresh translations.)
<knome> oki
<Unit193> https://unit193.net/xubuntu-docs_14.04.0_all.deb
<brainwash> knome: new secret user/group management tool? does that mean that we can ignore all the issues in gnome-system-tools?
<knome> means we shouldn't worry about fixing them right now
<brainwash> ok
<knome> and it's not really secret-secret, it's just not public yet either
<knome> it's written by someone in #xfce-dev, and i'm really interested to see it
<brainwash> me too
<Unit193> knome: For online use, I move desktop-guide/ to en_US/ :P
<knome> mhm
<knome> i guess that's my only semi-problem
<knome> if we want to build all the translations with the same code, they will either each need to have the same includes (stupid) or link to the same relative path
<Unit193> It's doing the second now.
<knome> yep, but can't do that with the branch in trunk
<Unit193> You can't?
<Unit193> I pushed some make changes didn't I?
<knome> oh, then it probably can ;)
<knome> did i merge them yet?
<Unit193> Those were so the docs knew where the 'libs' where, but also made it so the languages share.
<knome> mhm
<knome> good
<Unit193> Meh, wrong 'where'
<knome> ;)
<jjfrv8> knome, pushed an MP with correction for the slideshow bug 1213933. Marked you as reviewer per your request.
<ubottu> bug 1213933 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Slideshow recommends trying out environment which isn't present" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1213933
<jjfrv8> this is just in case lderan doesn't come up with a more elegant solution
<lderan> going to look at it over the weekend :)
<jjfrv8> cool
<knome> i'm off from desktop for today, but i will probably pop back in with the laptop later
<knome> jjfrv8, i'll look at that today or tomorrow, thanks
<knome> hrm, either the xfce4 powerman patches aren't working correctly or there is something else wrong in my setup
<brainwash> knome: what doesn't work?
<knome> hmm, everything seems to work now
<brainwash> magic?
<knome> unless i can be sure it's related to the patch, i won't tell you :P
<knome> nah, some weird locale stuff
<knome> i always seem to have problems with locales, and that might have been the root cause for my other issue as well
<ochosi> knome: sorry i missed the meeting, wasn't possible to be here
<ochosi> will read the backlog though
<knome> that happens
<ochosi> and thanks for the xfce-logo
<knome> especially when we're talking about you
<knome> ;P
<ochosi> i've already converted it
<knome> converted?
<ochosi> and i'll push it later, together with the fixed ubuntu icon
<knome> didn't you want an svg
<ochosi> yeah, you need to use a certain bg-color for symbolic icons
<ochosi> so "converted" is probably a bit much for what i've done :p
<knome> if you had told me...
<knome> if you can wait 5mins, i'll put up the meeting minutes
<knome> (if you can't, i'll postpone that)
<knome> i'm also waiting for your reply :P
<brainwash> does noskcaj avoid joining this channel lately? :D 
<knome> you would have to ask him
<knome> haven't seen him around much lately anyway, so maybe he's just busy though
<brainwash> I want him to sru his patched power manager package
<knome> fwiw, there is no reason why you couldn't manage the SRU
<brainwash> because the debian maintainer won't add the missing systemd patches soon-ish
<brainwash> not quite sure how to handle the debdiff/changelog stuff
<ochosi> knome: i'll be around in a few minutes
<knome> okay, i'll set up the meeting minutes in a sec then
<brainwash> so I'm waiting for him to tell me, if he is now in the mood to release the patched package + SRU
<knome> brainwash, that's a skill you can learn
<brainwash> learning by doing
<pleia2> sorry for missing the meeting, still recovering from cold+jetlag schedule
<knome> pleia2, that's also ok
<knome> pleia2, you are more forgiven than simon is
<knome> the minutes are up for you who want to read them
<pleia2> thanks :)
<brainwash> I missed the first half, because my nick is not in the highlight list :(
<brainwash> please add it :D
<ochosi> knome: thanks, will read them in a bit
<knome> updated the monthly updates
<knome> brainwash, you are not in the team
<brainwash> ok, it's a team meeting after all
<ochosi> thanks for the minutes, went through them now
<knome> well, community meeting; the highlight is to have as many team members around as possible
<ochosi> i did lightdm-gtk-greeter theming, light-locker is pretty UI-less
<knome> ochosi, you can add them to the team report
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports/14/January
<knome> pleia2, how well are you feeling?
<pleia2> knome: well enough to do Work work
<knome> so do you have time for a PM then?
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> or we can do it here but that's just flooding the channel :P
<knome> fyi, http://xubuntu.org/products/ is live
<pleia2> \o/
<ochosi> brainwash: could you try whether renaming the lubuntu badge to lxde works?
<ochosi> pleia2, knome: if you got time to quickly talk a few things wrt wallpaper contest, lemme know
<knome> i do
<Unit193> I forgotted to add it earlier: http://goo.gl/2xntc3
<knome> haha, still faster than any of us ;)
<Unit193> Scripted. :P
<knome> ...still
<Unit193> (Well, almost.)
<Unit193> knome: That's because, if it's not on the calendar, it's not happening in my memory. :D
<knome> ;)
<knome> i try to not get that depending on calendars
<knome> but lately i've noticed i have to put some things down
<ochosi> knome: we could accept the last round of wallpapers then
#xubuntu-devel 2014-01-17
<knome> okay
<knome> all sent on time?
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> ok
<ochosi> knome: have you also tested the session menu stuff?
<ochosi> in the greeter i mean
<knome> yes
<ochosi> so what's your feedback so far? still annoyed by the potential "en_AU"?
<ochosi> and how do you like the badges so far?
<knome> yes, still annoyed
<knome> and i've seen the xubuntu badge :P
<knome> and xfce badge in inkscape
<knome> i'm fine with the badges
<ochosi> hehe
<knome> no i mean, the whole idea is ok
<knome> and i don't mind if some weird session doesn't have a badge; the menu will show the current session anyway
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> basically every distro/desktop can add session badges to hicolor and they'll automatically get picked up by the greeter
<ochosi> can we lock down the submission page btw?
<knome> i doubt so
<knome> but we can just ignore
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> yeah, i thought of putting a huge note up there once i'm done with moving
<ochosi> (which i'm about to)
<ochosi> ok, done. time for you to do your magic
<knome> ;)
<knome> no, imagemagick :P
<ochosi> as your mail-notification will have already told you, i've edited the submissions page to reflect the closedness of the contest
<knome> i don't have TB turned on, but ta
<ochosi> not bad, the xfce-badge
<ochosi> just tested it in action
<knome> :)
<ochosi> brainwash: ubuntu-badge is fixed
<ochosi> knome: xfce-badge is pushed
<knome> ochosi, accepted submissions are up
<ochosi> thanks
<knome> np
<ochosi> can we create a tarball and put it up there as well? or is that too large for moinwiki to handle
<knome> i can at some point create a tarball and share it semi-privatel
<knome> +y
<ochosi> theoretically we could provide it publicly after the contest
<ochosi> as a kind of acknowledgement for all participants
<knome> can talk with p leia2 about that
<knome> i promised myself i'm going to bed before 2am today
<knome> so i should be going already...
<knome> nighty, ttyl
<ochosi> hehe ok
<ochosi> night knome 
<brainwash> ochosi: negative, renaming it to lxde_ did not help
<ochosi> hmm
<brainwash> add a debug print
<ochosi> you mean you'll add a debug print cause you have the lxde session? :D
<ochosi> i can pastebin the diff for it if you need it
<brainwash> I mean, print the session string to the greeter log
<ochosi> yeah, i know
<ochosi> http://dpaste.com/1555556/
<brainwash> the greeter really makes me wonder once again.. should anyone be able to restart/shutdown the system while not being logged in (unlock screen)?
<ochosi> yeah, i think not, but logind/lightdm should take care of that
<ochosi> the greeter shouldn't have to do complex checks like that
<brainwash> right, it's a general question
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> i think there is almost no reason for being able to shutdown a system from the greeter when there's someone logged in
<ochosi> sergio-br2: i'm looking at your icons now...
<sergio-br2> ok
<brainwash> ochosi: exactly
<jimbo__> Hi
<sergio-br2> i added thunderbird png icons, like firefox. Any problem?
<brainwash> ochosi: and I request a "lock" symbol which should be displayed somewhere on the greeter screen :D
<ochosi> sergio-br2: no, i think that's fine
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, i was considering to replace the session/language menus with a single lock icon
<brainwash> ochosi: I know... bold font, "unlock" button.. but a lock icon would be awesome
<ochosi> (before i figured out how to properly update them)
<ochosi> yeah, the whole greeter theming will be revamped as soon as i'm done (which i mostly am now)
<brainwash> could it be added into the login/unlock button?
<brainwash> the open lock icon
<ochosi> either that or in the panel
<brainwash> it really helps with the navigation
<ochosi> what does?
<brainwash> navigation might be the wrong term.. I mean a symbol always helps to see and recognize things faster
<brainwash> now that we use the greeter as unlock screen
<brainwash> (and gnome-screensaver displays the lock icon)
<brainwash> :D
<sergio-br2> ochosi, the first commit that i made was wrong, but i fixed things after. Are there any problem? don't know yet exactly how git works
<ochosi> sergio-br2: what is a bit of a problem are your symlinks, /home/sergio/Pictures/elementary-xfce/elementary-xfce/apps/128/accessories-text-editor.svg is not available to everyone! :)
<sergio-br2> yeah rsrs
<sergio-br2> but i fixed it after
<sergio-br2> see the last commit
<sergio-br2> used ln -r -s -f  for every icon
<ochosi> oh, right
<sergio-br2> dunno how to "erase" the first commit
<ochosi> no need for that
<sergio-br2> clock icon was changed? IMHO, i prefer the older...
<ochosi> yeah, that's how it goes, can't make everyone happy, especially with icons...
<ochosi> (another upstream merge)
<sergio-br2> you liked?
<sergio-br2> the edge is thinner
<ochosi> yeah, i don't mind it
<ochosi> the old one looked a bit bulky
<ochosi> you gave me quite a lot to review, but i'm almost done
<brainwash> ochosi: so it's "Lubuntu" and "LXDE"
<brainwash> strange that it does not use the available icon
<sergio-br2> :)
<ochosi> brainwash: did you refresh the icon-cache?
<brainwash> no
<ochosi> sudo gtk-update-icon-cache -f /usr/share/icons/hicolor
<ochosi> sergio-br2: generally speaking this is fine, but smaller merge-requests make it easier to review them
<ochosi> so i can review them in parts
<sergio-br2> so, it's better i do a commit for each icon?
<brainwash> ochosi: works
<brainwash> so it should ignore case
<brainwash> and match lubuntu
<ochosi> brainwash: so why didn't the lubuntu one work from the start?
<ochosi> sergio-br2: nah, just smaller merge-requests :)
<ochosi> sergio-br2: having e.g. all inkscape icons in one commit/merge-request is totally fine
<sergio-br2> ok
<brainwash> ochosi: because "lubuntu" != "Lubuntu"
<brainwash> so ignore case
<ochosi> hmpf
<ochosi> ok
<brainwash> or rename it to Lubuntu_
<brainwash> lxde would be LXDE_
<ochosi> pushed the fix
<ochosi> should work now for lubuntu and lxde
<ochosi> actually makes more sense to lowercase the session names, so thanks for catching that brainwash 
<ochosi> ah crap, that last commit was crap
<brainwash> don't worry.. won't test it right away
<brainwash> my test system is already powered off
<brainwash> should the unlock screen expose the restart/shutdown/.. menu?
<brainwash> logind is not that helpful in this case
<ochosi> sergio-br2: thanks again for the icons! feel free to keep them coming ;)
<sergio-br2> yeah, soon more 3 icons
<sergio-br2> ochosi, what you think about large screens?
<ochosi> what do you mean?
<ochosi> i like to use them
<sergio-br2> the icons, they not went pixalated?
<ochosi> in what sense?
<sergio-br2> or the icons stay smaller?
<sergio-br2> i mean, 128 pixel icons is not sufficient to large screens. But i don't know, i have only a 17" here, laptop
<ochosi> ah
<sergio-br2> i don't have large screen like 40" or more to test. Like a TV
<ochosi> well that doesn't really matter
<ochosi> xfce doesn't use 128px icons in many places
<sergio-br2> hum, but whisker menu yes
<ochosi> the icon-size doesn't depend on your screensize or resolution
<ochosi> indeed, not sure it's very useful though
<sergio-br2> the "very large" icon in whisker, do you know if it use 128 or 256?
<sergio-br2> *option in whisker
<ochosi> 128px afaik
<ochosi> sergio-br2: actually 96px would be more useful than 128px, because that at least is used in some places
<ochosi> (e.g. thunar)
<sergio-br2> and it lacks
<sergio-br2> where 96 is used?
<ochosi> zoom in thunar with ctrl+
<ochosi> you'll see it
<ochosi> (hint: it's the blurry size)
<ochosi> night everyone
<ochosi> (hint 2: second-largest size)
<sergio-br2> ahh, ok
<sergio-br2> night
<sergio-br2> ahh, understand
<sergio-br2> ok, I'll see what I can do
<jimbo__> u guys croptimining?
<svetlana> Hi all. Like mentioned before the website appears to lack locales. What work needs to be done to enable them? Is the website available as a repo somewhere?
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website/xubuntu-website/theme - https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/+bug/797600
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 797600 in Xubuntu Website "Enable translations for the Xubuntu website" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<svetlana> Thank you. Is there a specific reason you're linking me to the theme part of the website?
<Unit193> That's the correct branch, also note the bug says the pot file is in there.  It's a tiny step towards getting it translated, but still unknown how to properly do it.
<svetlana> Ah. That's a branch name. Thank you.
<Unit193> May I ask what language you're looking for?
<Unit193> (And, if you are who I think you are. :) )
<svetlana> I appear to be reasonably good at reading English, but thought I'd try to see what effort providing a translation to Russian would entail.
<Unit193> Right now, we're working on getting the shipped documentation translated and how to properly ship it too.  Currently, the docs Russian translation is up to ~85%
<svetlana> Didn't know of âshipped documentationâ. I appear to not use it. However, I will consider switching OS locale and participating in its localization, too. (I'm currently using it in English.)
<Unit193> dpkg -L xubuntu-docs, http://docs.xubuntu.org, or Menu > Help
<Unit193> Note, I don't know the most about translations as I exclusively speak English.
<Unit193> The current development builds for the Russian documentation is: http://unit193.net/xubuntu/ru/ (refreshed this morning, EST.)
<Unit193> knome: Any progress as of late on the website translation?
<pleia2> I think we're still working on getting a plugin that canonical will accept
<Unit193> Oh, cool.  Thanks.
<pleia2> the other trouble is we have such a small team that keeping the english version of the site up to date is a challenge, let alone working with translators at this stage
<pleia2> still hope to do so at some point, but it's tough
<svetlana> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website/xubuntu-website/theme/files has 2 directories, -fourteen and -wp. What are they for?
<svetlana> pleia2: hi.
<svetlana> pleia2: what do you mean by âpluginâ in that context?
<Unit193> xubuntu.org is wordpress.
<svetlana> Unit193: it makes somesort sense, given my previous question. What is the other directory, fourteen?
<Unit193> The site is being revamped, that's what I presume it is based on the name and date.
<svetlana> http://input.mozilla.org is cool. I wonder whether wordpress has a plugin to such effect.
<svetlana> Whoever works on the fourteen thing, it would be nice if he/she/it provided a readme outlining goals of his current work on it.
<Unit193> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-marketing seems to be the blueprint for it.
<svetlana> Unit193, what /is/ a "blueprint"?
<svetlana> Looks like a todo, but I don't grasp the word origin.
<Unit193> Building planning, for houses and offices and the like.
<Unit193> (The origin, that is.)
<svetlana> Oh, Wikipedia is helpful. The pictures. ;-p
<Unit193> Now you know why "blue" ;)
<svetlana> It looks like pasi is working on the website thing. does he/she ever come here?
<svetlana> ah, it is knome. okay. I'll wait for him/her to wake up.
<Unit193> (Finnish, but later day Finnish)  Almost 11am there.
<Unit193> He's the project lead.
<svetlana> I noticed that, and the nickname, from the launchpad profile.
<svetlana> Unit193: while on it, where can I translate the builtin documentation? (resent; I appear to have disconnected)
<Unit193> Right https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs
<svetlana> perfect
<slickymaster> morning all
<slickymaster> elfy: you around?
<svetlana> Morning, slickymaster.
<slickymaster> hi svetlana, good morning
<slickymaster> knome: I saw that jjfrv8 also made a MP for bug 1250052
<ubottu> bug 1250052 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu ISO image welcome slide still refers to Xubuntu 13.10" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1250052
<slickymaster> do you want me to withdraw mine or are you planning on merging both?
<brainwash> ochosi: a (non sudo) user is able to restart/shutdown.. the system while another user is also logged in, and the greeter allows restarttin/.. while sessions are locked
<brainwash> ochosi: looks somewhat careless
<brainwash> can we disable the menu? what would be the impact?
<svetlana> slickymaster: what is a "MP"?
<slickymaster> svetlana: it's a merge proposal in launchpad
<svetlana> ok, thanks
<slickymaster> np :)
<svetlana> tbqh that's a bit more intuitive than 'pull request'; I couldn't guess how that works even after reading the full name of it
<slickymaster> how that works? do you mean merge proposals?
<knome> svetlana, hello
<knome> slickymaster, i deleted your request to merge, so you can drop the branch
<svetlana> knome, hi. I wanted to discuss your website work. you appear to work with 'fourteen' instead of wordpress. does that imply the website being localizable, by your intent?
<slickymaster> ok knome, will do it
<knome> svetlana, we've been talking about localized versions for a long time
<knome> svetlana, the .pot file i've uploaded only allows the website theme strings to be translated
<knome> svetlana, not the content itself
<svetlana> what platform is the 'fourteen' thing?
<knome> svetlana, so that will still need more work, and i have not ETA for that
<knome> svetlana, our platform is wordpress.
<svetlana> doesn't it have a plugin for localization of websites content?
<knome> yes, but for our use case, they either lack some technical features we need, would produce really complex/overflowing UI, or cost something
<svetlana> is there documentation of the features you appear to need, other than 'present content with images, page title, and page metadata'?
<svetlana> and roughly what is your current focus of your work on the website?
<knome> we need translators to have their own user role, and we want to only allow them translating
<knome> we also need to only show the languages they are able to translate, to them
<knome> i personally do not want the translation plugin to clutter the edit interface too much either
<knome> the current focus is to get the new theme ready and published
<svetlana> what is the fourteen thing? I assume it's a vanilla wordpress with some your work on css, layout and content, without modifying the source of wordpress itself?
<knome> it is mostly done, and only waiting for last rounds of feedback and small fixes before being filed as a ticket for the canonical IS to take it to production
<knome> you are looking in the branch called "themes"... it's a wordpress theme
<knome> and no, of course i'm not modifying the wordpress core itself, because that would mean we would have to maintain upgrades manually
<knome> if you look in the "plugins" branch, you'll see a few plugins we have been/will be using
<svetlana> ok, I'll check it out
<svetlana> do you have a staging server somewhere for me to see the new website without cloning the repo and setting it up manually?
<knome> http://xstaging.lallinaho.fi/
<ochosi> brainwash: how does unity-greeter handle that? (i.e. the session-menu + gnome-settings-daemon)
<brainwash> ochosi: I assume that it will behave the same way, the core problem might be logind (policykit rule)
<ochosi> not sure logind provides such fine-grain control
<brainwash> the greeter as unlock screen introduces this new problem
<ochosi> not really
<ochosi> when switching users you get that problem as well
<ochosi> you can already do that in 13.10
<ochosi> or 13.04
<ochosi> or any release with lightdm+logind
<brainwash> yes, I meant now that we use the greeter as unlock screen
<brainwash> the problem becomes more important
<svetlana> knome: it doesn't look at all as much different as I expected
<svetlana> I should applaud you for being sufficiently caring about users being used to the old website, I guess :)
<brainwash> ochosi: switching users is a "special" case, almost no ones uses this
<brainwash> ochosi: but the unlock screen, almost everyone does
<ochosi> brainwash: frankly i think it's about the same. the problem has always been of the same size/gravity, it just affects multi-user desktops, single-users never had a problem and also don't have one now
<knome> svetlana, the point wasn't to redesign the site completely, but just "refresh" the looks; and thanks
<ochosi> brainwash: single-users are at fault themselves when shutting down their own session
<brainwash> ochosi: and what if someone else uncovers the greeter and triggers restart?
<brainwash> everyone can
<ochosi> yeah, everyone can restart your laptop with physical access
<ochosi> they can also just hit the powerbutton for >10secs
<ochosi> i'm not saying we shouldn't take care of this
<brainwash> and if pysical access is limited?
<ochosi> just that the problem was always the same
<brainwash> not everyone uses a laptop :D
<bluesabre-laptop> so, how difficult would it be to solve?
<brainwash> yes, I'm just trying to point out this issue and find a way to solve it
<brainwash> 1) identify the problem
<ochosi> bluesabre-laptop: probably not *very*
<bluesabre-laptop> who wants bonus points ^
<brainwash> ochosi: so it's not problem we should care about?
<ochosi> 11:56  ochosi$ i'm not saying we shouldn't take care of this
<brainwash> disabling the power menu while lock_hint is set would be an imcomplete workaround
<brainwash> ah, what is the light-lock greybird branch?
<brainwash> using it now :D
<brainwash> brb
<bluesabre-laptop> lol
<bluesabre-laptop> looks like brainwash has g+
<ochosi> nah, he's just monitoring our branches i think :)
<knome> he's an A-class lurker
<ochosi> :>
<brainwash> nono, I simply keep my local greybird git repo up-to-date
<bluesabre-laptop> ah
<brainwash> so I got the message about the new branch
<bluesabre-laptop> if you have the lightdm-gtk-greeter daily branch you'll see a fancy difference
<brainwash> ochosi: lock icon next to the "unlock" button, yes or no? :)
<bluesabre-laptop> its something we're actually discussing right now
<brainwash> using bzr
<ochosi> brainwash: maybe :) feel free to propose a patch
<brainwash> ochosi: it's a good idea?
<brainwash> it adds more clutter
<ochosi> yeah, in a way, i'm not entirely sold on it yet
<ochosi> anyway, if you can write up all the cases/scenario's for the shutdown/reboot thing, i can try to solve that in the greeter
<ochosi> but as you pointed out, just hiding it when it's a lockscreen is only a workaround
<ochosi> it doesn't take care of the switch-to-greeter thing
<brainwash> ochosi: right, a check for logged in users would be required in this case
<ochosi> should suspend be allowed?
<ochosi> also, i presume the lubuntu issue is solved?
<brainwash> nothing should be allowed, unless you can confirm the action with your password
<svetlana> I use suspend. Why disable it?
<svetlana> Password confirmation sounds like an ok idea.
<ochosi> brainwash: password? how so?
<svetlana> (At least if other users are logged in.)
<brainwash> ochosi: your login details
<brainwash> to confirm the action while another user is currently logged in
<brainwash> but maybe it's not a big deal after all
<brainwash> I'll check unity-greeter in a moment
<brainwash> downloading and applying updates currently, ~500MB
<brainwash> this takes like an hour to complete
<ochosi> phew
<ochosi> i'm not sure we can really easily ask for the root password in the greeter
<brainwash> no, login details of an existing user
<brainwash> sounds strange
<brainwash> basically a session login or unlock
<brainwash> so only known users are allowed to perform these actions
<brainwash> I'll move the discussion to #ubuntu-devel later
<ochosi> yeah, makes sense
<ochosi> brainwash: just to get that confirmed, lubuntu's badge works now?
<brainwash> ochosi: works, lubuntu and lxde show the same badge
<ochosi> yup, i dont know whether they have separate logos
<bluesabre-laptop> elfy/forestpiskie: menulibre2 is now functionally complete.  It's missing a help dialog and a few dialog boxes, but editing menus (except adding new directories and separators -- will add that tonight) and launchers is good
<bluesabre-laptop> https://code.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/menulibre/menulibre2
<bluesabre-laptop> caveat: adding new items to the topmost level of the xfce menu doesn't seem to work, but didn't work for alacarte either
<bluesabre-laptop> if you want to do some light testing today, please pull the code and run bin/menulibre
<bluesabre-laptop> I'll try to get it packaged tonight
<bluesabre-laptop> still a little bit of cleanup to do
<bluesabre-laptop> otherwise, I'll have a bigger update tonight
<brainwash> bluesabre-laptop: did you already take a look at the accountsservice api which could be used to set the profile picture in mugshot?
<bluesabre-laptop> brainwash: not yet, been going full-force on menulibre to this point
<brainwash> should I create a report or did you already add this to your todo list?
<bluesabre-laptop> brainwash: I have it written down here
<bluesabre-laptop> fwiw, http://imagebin.org/287192
<ochosi> bluesabre-laptop: that looks great! great work!
<slickymaster> bluesabre-laptop: quick question
<bluesabre-laptop> slickymaster: what's up?
<brainwash> looks awesome
<slickymaster> reporting bugs on Mugshot, will it only be done through LP?
<bluesabre-laptop> yes
<slickymaster> ok, that's it
<slickymaster> thanks
<bluesabre-laptop> cool
<bluesabre-laptop> thanks!
<bluesabre-laptop> going to get ready for work now, be back tonight
<elfy> bluesabre-laptop: excellent - though I've got about 20 minutes left of lunch so I'll not be looking :)
<slickymaster> hi elfy 
<slickymaster> saw your question on Trello
<slickymaster> there's nothing blocking it, it's just that there's always something up
<slickymaster> I'll do it this weekend
<elfy> wasn't a question as such - just a prompt for me - the same one is also in the meetin glogs :p
<elfy> slickymaster: well - bear in mind that we need to readd suspend somewhere to a test - need to catch ochosi and knome at the same time for my 'plan' though
<slickymaster> yeah, yesterady I wasn't able to attend the meeting, but I read the logs
<ochosi> elfy: what's up? :
<elfy> ochosi: nothings up as such :)
<elfy> ACTION: elfy and knome/ochosi to discuss lightlocker testing - perhaps include old post install testing in that
<ochosi> ah ok
<ochosi> what does the test look like now?
<elfy> the lightlocker one looks like nothing at the moment - my thought is we are still missing the suspend test from the old post install test
<ochosi> 1) install light-locker, remove xscreensaver 2) restart session 3) open terminal and run "light-locker-comand -l" 4) from the lockscreen try ctrl+alt+f7 to access your session -> light-locker should block the access to that
<elfy> was thinking to include that in the lightlocker one given that people are going to locking and logging out
<ochosi> i think with the version that's in trusty now it should auto-lock on suspend
<ochosi> but i can only start testing trusty next week when i get my large ssd
<elfy> anyway - not got time now - only get 30 minutes for lunch :)
<ochosi> oh, sure
<ochosi> well anyway, the 4 steps above are the basic test
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> the suspend test is the same for 1) and 2), then 3) suspend 4) check whether you end up at the login screen when it wakes up
<ochosi> oh, and adding the lightdm-gtk-greeter daily PPA is probably not a mistake there
<ochosi> action-item -> done :)
<knome> well
<knome> i'm sure elfy is looking at the *final* test
<elfy> don't really want to be doing the test assuming that people have to be installing stuff - and then a week or so later changing it all again
<knome> adding a PPA isn't what users should need to do :P
<ochosi> yeah, it's working without the PPA
<ochosi> just the "unlock" button might still be labeled "log in"
<knome> i guess the question number one is:
<ochosi> that's the main problem
<knome> can we write the final test now and would it be correct
<knome> well that's something we can change later
<knome> if it's just one label
<ochosi> other than that it should work fine
<ochosi> you wont get additional benefits like the screen-blanking
<ochosi> sean said he'll do a greeter-release on the weekend
<ochosi> but that isn't the final release yet and i dunno who would upload it to trusty anyway
<ochosi> (don't wanna clog the sponsor queue with dev-releases)
<brainwash> ochosi: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/lockicon.php
<ochosi> brainwash: why not put it in the button directly?
<brainwash> or next to the user name
<brainwash> I know, it looks stupid right now
<ochosi> yeah, although your's is a nice example of long usernames already taking up a lot of space
<ochosi> i think the panel could also be a good place tbh
<ochosi> after all, all indicators are shown there
<knome> panel next to the computer name maybe?
<ochosi> i was also considering to put the lock on top of the avatar at some point...
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: btw I played a bit more with dithering/introducing noise into the default wallpaper, but I never got any good results
<slickymaster> bbl
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: sad to hear. i do like the idea
<slickymaster> gotta go lunch 
<knome> bon appetit
<brainwash> ochosi: I like the idea of having the lock icon inside the user combobox, next to every user name with a currently locked session
<brainwash> but this glade stuff looks a bit complicated
<knome> brainwash, you can do it tiger
<brainwash> well, at least it's fun to mess around with it
<brainwash> knome: btw how do we keep track of the new hidden user management tool? the 14.04 roadmap does not mention it yet, or?
<knome> we're poking the author with ochosi
<brainwash> such a tool needs much testing
<knome> brainwash, ...as you can see in #xfce-dev
<knome> much and much
<brainwash> so I'm a bit concerned about it
<knome> it isn't hardware dependent
<svetlana> So many channels. Here. #ubuntu-dev, #xfce-dev.
<knome> svetlana, the xubuntu team barely uses #ubuntu-dev though
<svetlana> is there a 'team'? I'd expect anyone be able to propose a patch. How do you define a 'team', out of curiousity?
<svetlana> The people with commit access?
<knome> the core team consists of people who have perpetually committed to the project
<knome> people with different access to different areas belong to subteams, likeÂ ~xubuntu-dev orÂ ~xubuntu-doc
<knome> core team being https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team
<svetlana> Oh, such a lot of paperwork and formalities. I see. Thanks.
<knome> lot and lot...
<svetlana> Seems to be not a thing of interest, with team being small and contributors being able to contribute and weigh in during discussions anyway.
<knome> many access rights are given to certain groups on LP anyway
<knome> apart from the -qa team, all the subteams do have a specific access right which is integrally tied into being a member of that group
<knome> eg. members of ~xubuntu-web have admin access to the website
<knome> the subteams also help people outside the project see a list of optimal contact points, rather than having to ask everyone
<knome> ...and finally, the subteams are also a stepping stone to join the core team; do things with artwork and you'll be accepted to the artwork team for "probation", after keeping up the good work you'll be accepted to the core team
<knome> if the subteams didn't have any access rights, maybe it should be rethought if it's meaningful bureaucracy
<knome> ultimately, it's not like we have to add/remove members from the teams every day
<knome> svetlana, besides, why would any FOSS project want to limit contributions to a specific group anyway ?
<svetlana> knome, didn't expect it to; I was merely trying to understand how 'teams' work.
<svetlana> Hopefully decision-making isn't limited to the core team. If so, that's really not a thing I want to go into detail of.
<pmjdebruijn> btw
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: http://techvela.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/warty-final-ubuntu.jpg the default ubuntu wallpaper uses a similar approach as well, I just don't know the specific technique they use
<pmjdebruijn> http://design.canonical.com/author/otto-chaotic/ he probably made that wallpaper
<knome> svetlana, more or less is, but we need to draw the line somewhere. that's not to say people not in the core team can't affect decisions, especially if they are actually contributing towards the cause as well
<svetlana> The questions being public before being decided is all that one'd need to give core people feedback. They'd process it as necesary, depending on how sensible it is.
<knome> svetlana, questions are public, and voting on them happens on the community meetings
<svetlana> oh. I hope there's no separate channel for that? there is too many already
<knome> no, we're running our meetings on this channel
<knome> (many teams use #ubuntu-meeting for that though)
<pmjdebruijn> oh btw
 * pmjdebruijn tried Whisker menu the other day on xubuntu-saucy, /me kinda likes it
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: would be nice if you could investigate that, or get in touch with otto
<ochosi> gotta go, bbl
<knome> pmjdebruijn, looks like we're going to at least include it by default, so you can easily start using it
<knome> svetlana, are you interested in contributing then?
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: I'll give that a try @otto
<pmjdebruijn> knome: fair enough, I don't have any strong opinions either way
<pmjdebruijn> but it's certainly not bad, I guess I'll probably stick to it for now, to see how mature it is... but at first glance it seems quite mature
<pmjdebruijn> the way it sounds xubuntu 14.04 will be quite awesome :)
<svetlana> knome: Unit193 kindly linked me to translation thingie for the help shipped with the system, and I'll look at them. I would also check what wordpress plugins exist for translations. I think that's enough for a start for a few days to me.
<knome> it's been around for some time, so the codebase itseld should be rather stable; whether you like how it handles things is a different question; i don't personally use any menus whasoever
<knome> pmjdebruijn, definitely! hoping we can actually benefit from all the 2 years of preparing new stuff for the LTS finally
<pmjdebruijn> :)
<knome> svetlana, ok, thanks. for the wordpress plugins, we have looked at them and i work with wordpress commercially, so don't keep too high expectations...
<pmjdebruijn> with lightdm/light-locker, all the cosmetic ""issues" are gone now too
<svetlana> knome, I see. I didn't understand the thought about expectations.
<knome> yep, we're doing good progress
<knome> svetlana, what i meant was: feel free to look at them, but i'm somewhat sure you won't find anything we want to use, so don't feel sad if you don't :)
<svetlana> How do you work for it commercially? Do all the websites you work on neglect translating? Or do they have not as strict requirements for the roles and access?
<svetlana> Out of curiousity, do you work from home? You seem around a lot during the years.
<knome> yes, i work from home
<knome> brb
<svetlana> Ah. :-)
<knome> svetlana, either they don't need translations, or they are so small sites that there are other, better way to do the translations than to increase the codebase that needs to be maintained; also, yes, they usually don't have such strict requirements
<knome> and ultimately, i can just use the paid plugins if really needed :)
<knome> anyway, now bbl ->
<svetlana> I see. Hopefully there is an open alternative. See you later.
<brainwash> ochosi: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/lockicon2.php http://lpaste.net/98645
<brainwash> ochosi: I'll try to place the icon inside the button or next to the user name, don't know how yet (without breaking the layout)
<brainwash> feel free to change it the way you like it, mr. lead designer :D
<brainwash> ochosi: the unlock screen gets launched from an active session -> restart, shutdown and suspend are allowed despite the fact that the active session is locked
<brainwash> a change of the policykit rules seems unlikely
<brainwash> we requested the change of the restart rule for multiple sessions, so the greeter won't hide the restart option after the user logs out
<brainwash> this change was needed, because a logout did not terminate all user process.. I think pulseaudio was still running like 30sec after logout, so logind assumed that multiple sessions are still running
<brainwash> that reminds me of this possible change.. does the greeter power menu call the can_restart/shutdown function only initially or when the menu is actually opened?
<brainwash> ochosi: the power menu should ask lightdm (can restart? shutdown? and so on) every time the user opens the menu
<brainwash> if certain actions are not permitted, hide them "dynamically"
<ochosi> i think it does that already
<ochosi> i'd have to check the code
<ochosi> but lightdm reports that the user can reboot
<ochosi> because all users can now, according to logind
<brainwash> what about non ubuntu systems?
<brainwash> oh wait
<brainwash> the change was made upstream
<brainwash> but still, rules can be changed by the admin/system maintainer
<brainwash> long story short: hiding the power menu while users are logged in would be the easiest solution
<elfy> catching the end of a conversation without reading the rest can cause a wot moment :p
<brainwash> normal lock screen programs like xscreensaver and gnome-screensaver don't offer the possibility to restart, shutdown,.. the system
<brainwash> elfy: I really want to solve this madness :)
<brainwash> by reading this channel lately one could get the impression that xubuntu is only about the lightdm gtk greeter
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> it has become the center of attention for me lately at least
<brainwash> right, it has to work properly and look awesome
<ochosi> the latter is already quite true
<elfy> :D
<ochosi> so anyhoo, just checked the code, it only checks once at init whether to show/hide the powermenu
<brainwash> yep
<ochosi> but anyway, the result wouldn't be different even later, at least for lightdm_get_can_restart
<ochosi> because it's not user-related
<brainwash> not user related?
<ochosi> i guess the quick'n'easy patch is to add a logged_in check there as well
<ochosi> so it'll be hidden always when users are logged in
<brainwash> right
<brainwash> mmh, maybe replace the power menu with the lock icon in this case
<ochosi> ?
<ochosi> not sure i get it
<ochosi> you mean completely replace it. hm.
<ochosi> yeah, possible
<brainwash> display the "lock icon" when the power menu icon/menu is hidden
<ochosi> i think i also wanna give users a feedback though
<ochosi> so when they click, e.g. the menu opens and displays a menuitem saying that there's someone logged in, so shutdown/reboot is impossible
<ochosi> anyway, this can be annoying though as well, if a session hangs or if something goes wrong during logout
<ochosi> so some sort of override would be nice, but i think rather impossible
<brainwash> complicated stuff
<ochosi> hmpf, i need to do a user-check though... http://people.ubuntu.com/~robert-ancell/lightdm/reference/lightdm-gobject-1-User-Accounts.html#lightdm-user-get-logged-in
<ochosi> so theoretically i'd have to do that check for all users :/
<brainwash> which is possible
<brainwash> we need a clean solution
<ochosi> yeah, it can be done cleanly in load_user_lit
<ochosi> list
<pmjdebruijn> ochosi: I mailed otto just now
<brainwash> yeah, but I was also thinking of a general clean solution involving logind/lightdm/greeter
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: thanks!
<pmjdebruijn> btw
<ochosi> brainwash: well if you can come up with something, let me know :)
<brainwash> ochosi: sure
<pmjdebruijn> I tried modifying plymouth*ubuntu* and removing the plymouth backdrop wallpaper, so I'd only have a white xubuntu logo on a black background, and that looks pretty classy too 
<brainwash> black background is nice in general
<ochosi> pmjdebruijn: yeah, i agree
<pmjdebruijn> and it doesn't band :D
<brainwash> improves the transition boot -> plymouth -> greeter
<ochosi> yeah, currently the problem is that plymouth doesn't set the root-pixmap :D
<brainwash> because the background stays black
<ochosi> </kidding>
<brainwash> I like the idea
<elfy> ideas are great
<brainwash> or is a mainly black plymouth screen against the xubuntu philosophy?
<brainwash> xubuntu = blue
<pmjdebruijn> smurfbuntu :)
<pmjdebruijn> but the blue splash doesn't look bad at all either
<brainwash> pmjdebruijn: can you upload the wallpaper?
<pmjdebruijn> what wallpaper?
<brainwash> the white logo black backgroundone
<pmjdebruijn> I just commented it out in the plymouth theme .script file
<pmjdebruijn> so there is no wallpaper in my modified theme
<brainwash> ok, I'm ot familiar with plymouth at all
<ochosi> or ponybuntu
<brainwash> not using it since it got introduced
<pmjdebruijn> if you open /lib/plymouth/themes/xubuntu-logo/xubuntu-logo.script  it's fairly obvious :)
<brainwash> thanks
<brainwash> I'll try that
 * pmjdebruijn have much experience with it either
<ochosi> plymouth has a weird scripting language
<pmjdebruijn> I did modify the actual packages sources and rebuilt locally though
<ochosi> very custom, theoretically powerful
<ochosi> but on many modern systems you only see it for a second, so...
<ochosi> bbl
<pmjdebruijn> SSDs are plymouth's nemesis :)
<elfy> brainwash: xfdesktop4 for when I do this bug for the xfdesktop --reload - or do I even need to bother (if I don't we'll get it reported anyway though probably/I'd hope)
<slickymaster> bbl ->
<elfy> nvm - done it now
<brainwash> and it worked?
<elfy> reporting it against xfdesktop4 worked fine :p
<elfy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfdesktop4/+bug/1270261
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1270261 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "Desktop items have background" [Undecided,New]
<brainwash> --reload
<elfy> needed one for the test call
<elfy> oh yea - --reload works
<brainwash> it's not only the background.. font and font color are wrong too -> not properly themed
<pleia2> knome: I have access to static.xubuntu.org, it's on the same server as docs \o/
<brainwash> you gonna add my upstream report?
<elfy> brainwash: I really needed to get a lp number - what's the upstream report 
<elfy> got it 
<elfy> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10605
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10605 in General "Desktop icons/labels are not properly themed after login" [Normal,New]
<brainwash> ok
<elfy> all done 
<brainwash> strange that I cannot find my report via google
<elfy> really should look at bugzilla.xfce.org more often
<elfy> at least I've got an account there that I can remember now :p
<knome> pleia2, yep, i noticed the IS tracker email :)
<knome> pleia2, can you run php on the server? :P
<brainwash> ochosi: can you confirm that keyboard shortcuts are getting ignored for like 10sec after unlocking the session (light-locker)?
<pleia2> knome: nope
<knome> pleia2, did you double-check? ;)
<pleia2> knome: yes, looked in mods-enabled
<knome> oki
<knome> fair enough
<pleia2> (and php packages aren't installed)
<brainwash> ochosi: xfsettingsd needs a 10sec warm up until it will continue processing kb shortcuts :D
<ochosi> brainwash: no, just tested, kb-shortcuts work immediately here
<ochosi> i'll be away from tonight until monday, so don't expect any replies from me until then
<ochosi> brainwash: patch against greeter-trunk to hide the powermenu when there are users logged in: http://dpaste.com/1556849/
<ochosi> please test it and let me know whether it works expectedly
<ochosi> it can then easily be replaced by a lock-icon and menu that gives the user specific information why shutdown/reboot/suspend are forbidden
<ochosi> (theoretically suspend could be allowed though)
<ochosi> quite a pity that http://www.thecutestgeek.com/wildguppy doesn't work here
<ochosi> the idea is neat
<sergio-br2> hi hi
<sergio-br2> ochosi, 22 pixel size is used in thunar?
<ochosi> hey sergio-br2 
<ochosi> let me check
<ochosi> no, only 24px from what i can see
<sergio-br2> 16 - 24 - 32 - 48 - 64 - 96 - 128 ?
<ochosi> 22px seems to be mainly for toolbars and the like
<ochosi> yup
<sergio-br2> ah, ok
<ochosi> so in terms of folders and mimes, 96px would make some sense
<ochosi> (another area i wanted to work on for some time but didn't get to is icons for webapps)
<ochosi> there is also still room for improvement in terms of symbolic icons or the -darker addon
<ochosi> it's all a huge playground :)
<sergio-br2> haha, ok
<sergio-br2> and you know about whisker menu? Is it the same order as i type before?
<sergio-br2> i mean, the size used in whisker option
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> just checked to be sure
<ochosi> ok, gotta go
<ochosi> have fun everyone
<sergio-br2> well, you tell about "room for improvement", but i'm not an artist... i only know resize icons :D
<ochosi> sergio-br2: well, that is some help i/we can really use though!
<ochosi> (had to come back for something ;))
<Unit193> knome: And aw man!  Install whisker by default? :(
<brainwash> ochosi: http://lpaste.net/98675
<brainwash> ochosi: so only one location with gtk3 indicator libs is passed to the greeter
<brainwash> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/trunk/view/head:/src/Makefile.am#L17
<brainwash> ochosi: I'll test your power_menu patch
<brainwash> Unit193: do you use light-locker?
<brainwash> use or test
<Unit193> Nope.
<brainwash> ok
<Unit193> Tested it in vm on request though.
<brainwash> it's nothing big anyway
<Unit193> Well, that just makes it easier to test, no? :)
<Unit193> DanChapman: Howdy.
<knome> Unit193, ship, not use
<knome> Unit193, that was voted on.
<brainwash> bluesabre-laptop: are you familiar with ligthdm-gtk-greeter and its routine to load gtk3 indicators?
<brainwash> appears to be broken in trusty
<elfy> what appears to be broken 
<brainwash> lightdm-gtk-greeter should be able to load indicators
<brainwash> like unity-greeter does
<elfy> where 
<brainwash> you need to configure it
<brainwash> lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
<elfy> no idea what that does - only had it for a short while I was testing the other thing
<Unit193> brainwash: GTK3 greeter?
<brainwash> yes ofc
<brainwash> trusty
<elfy> brainwash: ok - so unity-greeter doesn't do anything of the sort until someone fiddles with it? 
<Unit193> (There's a gtk2 build too. :P )
<ali1234> brainwash: it's probably.... yet again, the upstart changes
<brainwash> does the gtk2 build even support indicators? :D
<brainwash> ali1234: yeah, so the only way to fix it would be to copy unity-greeter's method
<svetlana> brainwash: âtrustyâ is an ironically funny name. Thanks for mentioning it.
<brainwash> it is?
<brainwash> :D
<elfy> svetlana: I rename them usually
<ali1234> brainwash: would have to run the backends manually or something
<ali1234> and set the var so they don't instaquit
<brainwash> ali1234: see http://lpaste.net/98675
<brainwash> the greeter only checks 1 directory for indicators
<brainwash> and unity-greeter seems to use a different approach
<ali1234> those are only the front ends
<ali1234> you have to launch the service too now
<elfy> brainwash ali1234 - I'm not sure why ochosi thought I should be seeing things in the app ind - he seem's to - not a one here
<elfy> though possibly - different apps I guess
<brainwash> things?
<elfy> well - I see no things at all in the ind panel - everything is still in notifications
<elfy> ochosi saw my panel and commented/asked
<brainwash> can you link it again?
<ali1234> that's still because of the upstart changes
<elfy> ali1234: I'd guessed that was the case
<brainwash> but the workaround is mentioned on the wiki site
<brainwash> known issues
<elfy> brainwash: I'll do a new one and move ind panel to the right end
<ali1234> put INDICATOR_ALLOW_NO_WATCHERS=yes in /etc/environment
<ali1234> it will fix it
<elfy> thought I had 
<elfy> seems not
<brainwash> actually I did expect a fast fix for this
<elfy> ali1234: do I need reboot or logout/in to check
<ali1234> log out and in should be enough
<elfy> brainwash: I thought I'd edited the file in here :)
<damiank> hi i have been using xubuntu for a couple of years now and i just wanted to say hi and thanks to all you devs
<brainwash> damiank: great to hear :)
<brainwash> you should also thank the devs in #xfce-dev
<elfy> http://imagebin.org/287287
<damiank> i am on that
<elfy> there you are - ind plugin at right end - notification area - just right of the vb launcher
<damiank> i always work coding on php so i cant help too much on desktop packages but i hope i will be able to help sometime
<elfy> I ought to really go to this xfce channel ...
<damiank> :)
<damiank> i said on other channel ;)
<elfy> damiank: if you can code at all - you'll be more help on that front than I ever will :)
<elfy> I just cajole people - a lot
<brainwash> damiank: take a look at http://xubuntu.org/contribute/
<damiank> i'm there
<brainwash> help is always needed
<elfy> brainwash ali1234 - though I appear to now have nm in indicator panel
<ali1234> yeah
<damiank> brainwash just let me know how i can help
<ali1234> nm uses indicator-application
<damiank> i'll try to be here
<brainwash> damiank: ok :)
<elfy> ali1234: I've been kind of assuming it's the major apps I use don't actually have an indicator to use
<brainwash> nm applet might fall back to notification icon
<brainwash> it's a race condition
<elfy> though if I run the default ones - they don't show up
<ali1234> "default"?
<elfy> however because I never see them - I don't know if they should
<ali1234> pidgin does not use indicator-application, it uses indicator-messages
<elfy> ali1234: gmb is the default music thingy - hate it - use something else :)
<ali1234> gmb uses indicator-sound
<ali1234> as does rhythmbox
<elfy> aah - so does clementine :)
<ali1234> it really keeps your panel tidy, better than having loads of icons
<elfy> but do things like evince/abiword etc show up there?
<ali1234> i dunno, why would a text editor or pdf viewer even need an indicator icon?
<elfy> ok - so clementine show's up in the panel - and in notification
<elfy> ali1234: I don't know :) 
<elfy> I'm just basing my thoughts/comments on ochosi's why is nothing showing :)
<ali1234> nothing is showing cos you didn't apply the workaround :)
<elfy> logged out - but then again I know for sure I did in the last install and nothing did then either
<elfy> perhaps there is a bit of language difference here 
<ali1234> i'm guessing you're not very familiar with indicators and how they work?
<ali1234> they aren't a direct replacement for the notification area - they work very differently
<elfy> not really - you need to remember I'm just this guy ali1234 :)
<ali1234> unlike with notification area, processes can't put an indicator into the indicator area directly
#xubuntu-devel 2014-01-18
<ali1234> indicators are special stand-alone processes
<ali1234> what apps do, is talk to those processes
<ali1234> if the app wants to just make a generic icon, like a old-style notification icon, then it has to talk to indicator-application
<ali1234> if the app is a music player, then it has to go through indicator-sound, which present information in a different way
<ali1234> and same for messaging apps
<ali1234> there's nothing to prevent an app from creating both a notification icon and an indicator-application icon
<ali1234> in fact pidgin does this, if you tell it to
<ali1234> so the way that indicators used to work is that the panel plugin loads the .so file, and the .so file goes and asks for the indicator service on dbus, then dbus will run the backend process (which is just a normal executable)
<elfy> ok
<elfy> tha makes sense to me 
<ali1234> that is changed in trusty - now the panel/desktop environment is responsible for launching the backend. it won't happen automatically
<ali1234> there are two problems with this
<elfy> and this is the tedg things ?
<ali1234> one is that stuff like lightdm-gtk-greeter doesn't even know it has to do this
<ali1234> the other is related to dbus activation
<ali1234> previously, dbus would run the backed when something asked for the service
<ali1234> so as soon as the backend started up, something was instantly ready to use the provided dbus service
<ali1234> then the backend would quit when there were no more watchers of the service
<ali1234> under the new model there is no guarantee that there will be something waiting to use the dbus service when the backend starts, so the backends often just instaquit
<elfy> ok - that's logical 
<elfy> right
<ali1234> yes, this is the tedg thing
<elfy> ok - so I wonder with clementine, I tell it to use desktop notification - I assume then I would just get left with the one in ind-panle
<ali1234> "desktop notification" means the notification area
<elfy> apprently not
<ali1234> it might also mean notifications as in the pop up bubbles
<elfy> yea
<ali1234> those have nothing at all to do with either the notification area or indicators, it's just a naming collision
<elfy> ok - bit more with it now
<elfy> thanks ali1234 
<elfy> yep - got that collision
<elfy> good job I've not been called the tech lead I guess LOL
<elfy> my 'biggest' problem is I know what you are all talking in general terms, but it doesn't actually mean much specifically 
<ali1234> the whole indicator thing is pretty confusing really - there are many parts to it, plus it uses dbus heavily
<elfy> though in truth the biggest problem is most people just test it and carry on without telling us :)
<ali1234> but the worst thing is since this is a race condition, it doesn't affect everyone
<ali1234> it just depends how quickly your computer boots up
<elfy> yep - I can understand that 
<elfy> not 'so' fast here 
<ali1234> there's about 20 different bugs about it on LP and nobody knows which are duplicates or what
<elfy> just faster than the last one :)
<ali1234> becuse there was a bug on saucy that had a similar effect (missing indicators) but it got fixed
<elfy> ali1234: LOL - there are about 100k bugs like that :)
<ali1234> this one is particularly bad because it seems like me and tedg are the only two people who actually understand it :)
<elfy> :)
<ali1234> so there's a lot of people complaining about this, but spread over many bugs
<elfy> all I can say is I'm glad you're about :)
<ali1234> anyway, i sent a patch to fix this, but tedg is still reworking the whole codebase, so it's all still up in the air
<elfy> ali1234: yea - I see that, understand that from a user position- but most either come into here from a different desktop or from windows
<ali1234> until he finishes with that we can't do much
<elfy> and those last lot just assume a reinstall fixes it 
<ali1234> haha yeah
<elfy> yep
<ali1234> that never works on linux, ever
<elfy> we're in the position of really being bottom heavy here 
<ali1234> bottom heavy?
<elfy> ali1234: agreed with that ;)
<elfy> yep - lots of people at the bottom pushing up - but not so many at the top that can take the lid of the kettle to let the pressure out
<ali1234> well, if you ask me, the problem is that debian packaging is too damn hard
 * elfy is a physical engineeer - work with wire and stuff - will wire you a jumbo jet
<ali1234> i've tried to learn it countless times, i don't think i will ever understand it
<elfy> ali1234: it's all dutch to me :)
<ali1234> but, as a user, apt-get is the best
<ali1234> it's a tricky one
<elfy> I never created games with commodores and the like
<elfy> had kids
<elfy> apt-get is best 
<elfy> but
<elfy> I'd love it with the rpm delta thing
<elfy> which I got used to between unity in 11.04(ish) and coming to xubuntu
<elfy> that was just great thing
<ali1234> from a "making packages" PoV, gentoo ebuilds are the easiest to create i think
<elfy> I know there is an apt one - but it never really worked for me 
<ali1234> but emerge just sucks for the users
 * elfy has no idea - I want a system I can install, link music to, reboot - job done
<drc> ah...linux from scratch.
<elfy> though I have done it - just really, no thanks :)
 * elfy prefers building planes from that ... 
<elfy> ali1234: thanks for all that - sorted it out a bit for me :)
<elfy> the current question really is - how to get people that have some interest involved in the sponsor queue
<elfy> which 'could' be a managiing situation rather than a coding one - in which case I'd be interested
<elfy> /no idea though if it is or isn't
<ali1234> if i were the boss of xubuntu i'd just say "screw it, xubuntu is now a ppa, we ignore ubuntu release schedule"
<ali1234> and just put out ISOs with whatever we feel like
<Unit193> So, deluge indicator works fine in Ubuntu (so I'm shown and told), but looks like http://i.imgur.com/UqdLbnJ.png in Xubuntu (Predating saucy, saucy, and trusty+gtk3)...
<Unit193> http://i.imgur.com/jOuuf2h.png is what it should look like.
<knome> Unit193, heh.
<Unit193> Finally went to deluge about it, and he shows me it working in Ubuntu.  Sooo, no idea.
<brainwash> Unit193: looks like it falls back to notification icon
<brainwash> did you apply the workaround?
<Unit193> Workaround?  And no, that's an indicator, trayicon works fine.
<brainwash> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators
<brainwash> "Indicators may fail to load"
<Unit193> No, haven't needed to as they've been working fine... notification icon == tray icon?
<brainwash> yes
<brainwash> indicators are special
<Unit193> Then indicators are working fine, I know the difference. :P  (Also, it'd work much better if it were falling back, and the problem happens here on saucy.)
<brainwash> I would like to test it myself... but something broke wrapper-2.0 (xfce4-indicator-plugin) over night
<brainwash> maybe caused by the final move to gnome 3.10
<Unit193> My indicator-application is the one from saucy though, in the trusty vm.
<brainwash> or by one of my debug additions
<Unit193> brainwash: But you'll be able to take a look later on perhaps?
<brainwash> Unit193: yes, the menu looks different in unity and xubuntu
<damiank> hi
<ali1234> Unit193: the tray menu and indicator both load exactly the same glade file
<brainwash> but the strings are different and some icons are hidden too in unity/gnome
<ali1234> never the less, it is the same menu object, from the same glade file
<brainwash> yes, you said that already :)
<brainwash> did the strings got translated?
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> i think i see the problem
<ali1234> however i don't understand why it works in unity
<ali1234> this could be a bug in the panel plugin
<brainwash> very likely, the normal try icon menu looks ok
<brainwash> tray
<ali1234> right, fixed it
<brainwash> yet another bug which you were able to fix :)
<ali1234> are you really sure this works in unity?
<ali1234> i don't see how that is even possible
<brainwash> it looked ok in unity and gnome
<michel_> just tried the trusty daily build. why is iBus used for keyboard layouts instead of xkb?
<slickymaster> afternoon all
<ali1234> brainwash: Unit193: finally tested in unity. same bug, as i expected
<ali1234> so this really is a bug in deluge
<ali1234> http://imagebin.org/287402
<ali1234> the reason this happens is because of the lines in the glade file like this:
<ali1234> <property name="stock">gtk-media-pause</property>
<ali1234> That is on the "Pause All" button
<ali1234>  /menu item
<ali1234> when that property is set, the label gets changed to "Pause"
<ali1234> the fix is simply to remove all those "stock" properties
<ali1234> i suppose it might be consideed a bug in indicator-application or somewhere else in that stack
<Unit193> sudo sed '/name="stock"/d' tray_menu.glade -i fixed it, weird.
<ali1234> i don't understand the purpose of those lines in the glade, nor do i understand how deluge is setting the custom icons on the upload/download limit menus
<Unit193> Perhaps glade/torrent_menu.glade:215 and systemtray.py:146?
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> it's just 146
<Unit193> Bah, copied the wrong one, meant the GtkImage id in tray_menu, but I don't know glade.
<Unit193> But OK, anywho it's a deluge bug.
<ali1234> still could be indicators
<ali1234> here's a test case demonstrating the bug: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6776134/
<ali1234> i'm beginning to think that it's a bug indicators really
<ali1234> i mean it seems reasonable to expect the same glade to look the same in both places
<Unit193> And the glade has been the same for "years"
<ali1234> of course
<ali1234> hmm there's a changelog item "Fix custom labels on stock items."
<ali1234> bug 520048
<ubottu> bug 520048 in indicator-application (Ubuntu) "Custom labels in GtkActionEntries aren't resepected by Application Indicators C-bindings" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/520048
<ali1234> the file that patch applies to doesn't even exist any more
<ali1234> i'd say this is a regression
<ali1234> ok, reproduced it with no glade weirdness
<ali1234> bug 1270486
<ubottu> bug 1270486 in indicator-application (Ubuntu) "indicator-application doesn't use the menu item's label if it has a stock icon" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1270486
<Unit193> Wow, thanks very much!
<brainwash> how does unity work around this bug?
<ali1234> it doesn't
<ali1234> deluge is broken there too
<ali1234> don't even try to tell me it isn't
<ali1234> i just spent two hours installing and upgrading VMs to test it
<brainwash> the menu looked ok
<brainwash> no play button and correct label "resume all"
<brainwash> for example
<holstein> i usually try as a different user. removing my config from the equation
<brainwash> here is the screenshot linked before in this channel
<brainwash> http://i.imgur.com/jOuuf2h.png
<brainwash> it looks like this in unity/gnome
<ali1234> maybe, it might be an old version
<ali1234> it's broken in trusty and saucy
<brainwash> trusty
<holstein> i would also try something without forced 3d
<ali1234> brainwash: try the testcase if you don't believe me...
<brainwash> ok, but let me try it
<holstein> sorry.. wrong channel.. though, it happens to read so relevantly ;)
<Unit193> brainwash, ali1234: That was precise.
<ali1234> the screenshot? yeah, this bug has been fixed before...
<brainwash> so testcase indicators shows "hello"
<brainwash> indicator
<brainwash> ali1234: unity
<ali1234> à² _à² 
<brainwash> so something wrong with xfce4-indicator-plugin?
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> when you see "hello" you don't see the pause icon right?
<brainwash> right
<ali1234> thus, you haven't really broken the testcase
<ali1234> te idea is to see the pause icon and have the label read "hello" at the same time
<ali1234> i'm not sure why the icon isn't there
<brainwash> now I get it
<brainwash> we want both.. icon and correct label :)
<ali1234> yeah
<ali1234> so you need gnome-icon-theme-full installed to have that icon installed
<ali1234> if not installed, gtk will ignore it -> so appindicator bug won't be triggered
<ali1234> this is useful tho, i'll do another test case i suppose, with something installed by default
<brainwash> gnome-icon-theme-full is installed
<brainwash> even selected
<brainwash> but still no icon
<Unit193> I get the icon, but not the text "hello", I do not have -full but have humanity and gnome-icon-theme.
<brainwash> Unit193: can you build your xfdesktop package with this patch applied? https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10605
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10605 in General "Desktop icons/labels are not properly themed after login" [Normal,New]
<brainwash> we need to test it, elfy is affected too
<Unit193> It's by eric, does it really need any testing? ;)
<Unit193> Sure, should apply.
<brainwash> thanks
<ali1234> i am looking for an icon where this works out the box...
<ali1234> hmm
<ali1234> so this really does bevahe differently on trusty
<ali1234> but the glade testcase is still broken
<ali1234> brainwash try this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-application/+bug/1270486/+attachment/3951740/+files/testcase2.py
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1270486 in indicator-application (Ubuntu) "indicator-application doesn't use the menu item's label if it has a stock icon" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ali1234> it might be a gtk2/3 thing
<brainwash> testcase 2: pause icon + "pause" label
<ali1234> right, as expected
<Unit193> Dang, uploaded to wrong ppa. >_<
<Unit193> So how do you even see if it's gone?  It didn't happen every time, and restarting xfdesktop won't help as it "fixed" the problem before. :P
<ali1234> eric said he knew what was causing it
<Unit193> brainwash: update.
<brainwash> Unit193: thank you :)
<brainwash> it usually happens after you log in
<Unit193> Yeah, had it on this desktop, restarted lightdm resterday (or, restarted dbus which crashed lightdm but left X hanging.)
<brainwash> before updating I'll try to delay xfsettingsd to force this bug
<brainwash> so I'll have a 100% testcase for the patch
<Unit193> Wow, xmir actually works on the one desktop now, quite amazing.  (After a slight xorg crash and fall back to lightdm)
<brainwash> it might work almost perfectly, but without a hardware cursor and dedicated support by the mir guys I feel like we are going nowhere
<Unit193> (This should have gone to -offtopic, whoops) No, I mean it was real bad before, http://unit193.net/mir/DSCF3866.AVI
<brainwash> xmir talk is always welcome :D
<Unit193> (I don't like -devel, so tend to migrate to -offtopic a lot)
<Unit193> Hah, xonotic took it down. :P
<Unit193> brainwash: Patch didn't work for me.
<brainwash> same here
<Unit193> Can poke eric here, in #xfce-dev or bug. :P
<brainwash> eric_the_idiot: the patch does not fix the xfdesktop issue (10605)
<brainwash> xfsettingsd is like the first thing to start on session login
<brainwash> or isn't it?
<brainwash> xfce4-panel simply refreshes its appearance after xfsettingsd is finally up and running
<brainwash> xfdesktop does not
<brainwash> added a 5sec delay
<ali1234> yes, normally things do refresh when the settings daemon starts/stops, which is odd
<ali1234> maybe it is something different about the way it is initiallly launched
<brainwash> now I got it, so xfdesktop does actually wait for xfwm4 and now additionally for xfsettingsd (patch)
<damiank> hi brainwash
<brainwash> but there is a 5sec timeout
<brainwash> then xfdesktop will start
<brainwash> despite the status of xfwm4/xfsettingd
<brainwash> hey damiank 
<ali1234> yeah, and it always times out
<damiank> i have a lot of spare time this weekend, so i'm downloading today daily to test
<brainwash> ali1234: so we got two issues here.. the 5sec timeout and the missing theme refresh
<ali1234> i think what might be happening is that xfdesktop is waiting for xfwm, but xfwm is waiting for xfdesktop
<brainwash> woot
<brainwash> :D
<ali1234> this would be a good candidate for some syslog debugging, to log all the times that everything gets started
<ali1234> i just so happen to have a shim that will do this without patching everything
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6777124/
<ali1234> rename xfdesktop to xfdesktop.real
<ali1234> copy the built shim to where xfdesktop was
<brainwash> ah nice
<ali1234> do the same for xfwm and xfsettingsd
<ali1234> it automatically knows what to run
<brainwash> ok
<ali1234> and it will log everything
<brainwash> I'll test it tomorrow
<brainwash> here's the bug report + upstream report in case you want to add some findings
<brainwash> bug 1270261
<ubottu> bug 1270261 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "Desktop items have background" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1270261
<brainwash> good night
#xubuntu-devel 2014-01-19
<pleia2> https://www.linux.com/news/software/applications/752221-the-top-7-best-linux-distros-for-2014
<pleia2> Best Desktop Distro: Xubuntu
<pleia2> :D
<Noskcaj> :)
<pleia2> Carla is so <3 this week (she also did an article about a star wars scrolly xscreensaver and used the ubuntu weekly newsletter as a text example)
<Noskcaj> that's pretty impressive, ignoring my opinion on star wars.
<pleia2> hehe
<forestpiskie> pleia2: nice :)
<Noskcaj> Do we want xfwm4 4.11?
<Noskcaj> Or does it hurt, since the merge is all done and ready
<knome> Noskcaj, see the whiteboard for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-features for wanted versions
<knome> Noskcaj, if you need more information about something, ask ochosi
<Noskcaj> ok, thanks for the link. Merge proposed
<Noskcaj> tomorrow i'll get the bugfix release of -settings and the new gmusicbrowser release done
<Noskcaj> but now i have to go and watch cricket, g'night
<Unit193> If he does that, he'll break auto-import of it.
<knome> then he will have to make sure it's fixed..
<brainwash> elfy: reading the alpha 2 mail... one known issue? :D
<elfy> :)
<elfy> one that they will immediately see and wonder about and end up reporting, then we'll get 4 or 5 dupes of it 
<brainwash> this one will be fixed very soon, now that we now why it does not work like intended
<brainwash> see the upstream report
<elfy> brainwash: possibly so - but if the a2 is released tomorrow - then it will be with what we have
<brainwash> oh, it's tomorrow already
<elfy> should be tomorrow or tuesday I believe
<brainwash> somehow I don't feel like testing it separately 
<elfy> seperately?
<Unit193> Indicators might be noticed.
<brainwash> in a vm or extra installation
<brainwash> Unit193: what does that mean?
<elfy> anyway - not really all that worried - we'll get the usual half a dozen people test it and report
<brainwash> what is the status of light-locker? I guess the user still needs to set it up, or?
<Unit193> Not seeded.
<brainwash> :/
<elfy> brainwash: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2014-January/002720.html
<brainwash> elfy: thanks
<Unit193> brainwash: For what it's worth to you, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/lubuntu.trusty/revision/284
<brainwash> Unit193: wow, and the bug is still not fixed in 13.10
<Unit193> Didn't a comment explain what's up?
<brainwash> a comment? the report got spammed with comments
<brainwash> which one do you mean?
<brainwash> with the switch to light-locker the issue should be solved now
<Unit193> Also, I love it, fixed in Ubuntu so that's what matters: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-properties/+bug/1060543
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1060543 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "Additional Drivers is not discoverable in Quantal" [Critical,Fix released]
<brainwash> yeah, the communication between main ubuntu and the different spins is somewhat bad I think
<brainwash> another example would be the update-notifier
<Unit193> We added jockey in raring or saucy (see last comment.)
<brainwash> it integrates nice into the unity side bar, but not in xubuntu
<brainwash> right, but others did not
<Unit193> Hope that's merged, so we can drop it.  Otherwise I'll merge request it for lubuntu and UbuntuStudio (our sistership. :P )
<brainwash> speaking of ubuntustudio.. aren't those guys also interested in gtk3 indicators and other new xubuntu features like menulibre,..?
<brainwash> meaning, they surely want to test them too
<Unit193> Likely, but think their team is smaller.
<knome> zequence, ^
<Unit193> Shush, knome. :P
<Unit193> Speaking of him, I poked him about his session problems.
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, When can i get some catfish 0.8.3, mugshot, or menulibre for packaging?
<brainwash> Noskcaj: hey, do you feel like pushing your power-manager package to trusty-proposed and writing the SRU report for saucy?
<Noskcaj> brainwash, I'm trying to get a responce from corsac first, but i'll get it done this week
<brainwash> right, I asked him about it, but his answer was rather blurry
<Noskcaj> We need a second DD in pkg-xfce. 
<Noskcaj> It's currently me, corsac, and sometimes mr-pouit
<Unit193> DD is only Corsac.
<brainwash> this power-manager is really annoying many users, we have to do something about it :/
<brainwash> power-manager issue
<Noskcaj> Unit193, my point exactly
<brainwash> and people will be forced to upgrade from raring to saucy very soon
<Noskcaj> brainwash, link to the bug for changelog plz
<brainwash> bug 1222021
<ubottu> bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager does not inhibit systemd from handling buttons and lid events" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021
<Noskcaj> https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfce4-power-manager/systemd/+merge/202226
<brainwash> it will now land in the sponsoring queue?
<Noskcaj> yeah. The system takes a lot of time though.
<brainwash> it's a 400 heat bug report, maybe we can convince someone in ubuntu-devel to take a look at it
<Noskcaj> brainwash, Can you go and ping them? I need food and to finish gnome-system-tools
<brainwash> Noskcaj: gnome-system-tools? are new patches available?
<Noskcaj> The latest entry at http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/g/gnome-system-tools/unstable_changelog
<bluesabre-laptop> Noskcaj: Good timing, could you start creating packaging/review my setup.py at https://code.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/menulibre/menulibre2
<bluesabre-laptop> I'm nearly done, just adding the very last bit now, should be releasable today
<bluesabre-laptop> and then I'm off work tomorrow, so will double-down on mugshot tomorrow
<Noskcaj> bluesabre-laptop, :)
<Noskcaj> bluesabre-laptop, Is the entire thing GPL-3? Would you like the packaging to be native (Packaged in the same bzr branch) or quilt (packaged separately)?
<bluesabre-laptop> Noskcaj: Yeah, its all GPL-3
<bluesabre-laptop> What would you recommend for the packaging?
<Noskcaj> bluesabre-laptop, Since it's all targeted for xubuntu, it's probably worth making it native.
<bluesabre-laptop> alrighty, works for me
<Unit193> Err, highly recommend quilt, if you want it in Debian. :/
<Unit193> native = Ubuntu only project and debian/ is part of the project.
<Noskcaj> One last thing, what will the release's version be? Will the name stay as menulibre2?
<Noskcaj> Unit193, no
<Noskcaj> native can be in debian just as easily
<Unit193> Basically, yeah.  If packaging gets messed up, new upstream release.
<Noskcaj> But i see your point, maybe we should leave it as quilt
<bluesabre-laptop> quilt's good then
<bluesabre-laptop> will probably release as menulibre
<bluesabre-laptop> version 2.0
<Unit193> (Also allows you to put all sorts of wicked patches in++) ;)
<Noskcaj> Is the package python, python3, or both?
<bluesabre-laptop> python3 only
<bluesabre-laptop> Noskcaj ^
<Noskcaj> ok
<Noskcaj> bluesabre-laptop, What depends and build depends should i have?
<bluesabre-laptop> Noskcaj: I believe the dependencies should be the same as alacarte, just with python3
<bluesabre-laptop> Unit193: want to take it for a spin?  I just added the last features
<Unit193> bluesabre-laptop: Self-contained?  Heck, who cares, of course I do!
<bluesabre-laptop> should be able to pull it and run bin/menulibre
<bluesabre-laptop> I do need to add that it should bug you to save before closing or changing to a different launcher
<bluesabre-laptop> I'll do that in a few
<Noskcaj> bluesabre-laptop, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6782533/ is my current error
<bluesabre-laptop> Noskcaj: Looks like it's falling back and building with python2
<Unit193> TypeError: run() takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given)
<Noskcaj> never mind, using pybuild fixes that issue
<Unit193> bluesabre-laptop: Something I'm missing?
<bluesabre-laptop> Unit193: what line did that happen at?
<Unit193> File "/home/unit193/junk/menulibre2/menulibre/__init__.py", line 45, in main
<bluesabre-laptop> yay api differences!
<bluesabre-laptop> try pulling the just pushed revision
<Unit193> I like it, but the toggles have no on/off wording?
<Unit193> Segmentation fault \o/
<Unit193> Bah, can't reproduce.
<bluesabre-laptop> No On/Off wording?
<Noskcaj> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6782631/ is my new issue
<bluesabre-laptop> probably an issue with my setup.py
<Unit193> Ah, I can reproduce!
<bluesabre-laptop> Unit193: on saucy or trusty?
<Unit193> Saucy, baby.
<bluesabre-laptop> yup
<bluesabre-laptop> ochosi and I found that too
<bluesabre-laptop> I think its a bug with either that version of python3.3 or python gmenu
<bluesabre-laptop> but python -> C is difficult to debug
<bluesabre-laptop> Noskcaj: can you tar your packaging in the state that it is in so I can debug my setup.py?
<bluesabre-laptop> or if you are familiar with setup.py, could you take a look at it?
<Unit193> So, tad buggy, but nevertheless.
<bluesabre-laptop> Unit193: you said the toggles don't have the on/off wording?
<Unit193> Right, it's just some weird thing that goes back and forth, "Run in terminal" et al.
<bluesabre-laptop> weird
<bluesabre-laptop> sounds a theme bug
<bluesabre-laptop> or feature
<Unit193> https://unit193.net/mernuleebre.png
<bluesabre-laptop> which theme is that?
<Unit193> MediterraneanDarkest
<bluesabre-laptop> mernuleebre looks terrible in that theme
<Unit193> I needed a dark theme, ochosi wanted to get me off his back about Blackbird, found me this one. :P
<bluesabre-laptop> ah
<Unit193> Speaking of him, he didn't give you a nice shiny icon.
<bluesabre-laptop> I noticed :(
<bluesabre-laptop> the xfce menu in debian ignores menulibre and alacarte
<bluesabre-laptop> interesting...
<Unit193> echo $XDG_MENU_PREFIX
<bluesabre-laptop> ah
<bluesabre-laptop> had the same problem with cinnamon
<bluesabre-laptop> seems like that should really be set by default
<Unit193> I don't know if it really is that.
<bluesabre-laptop> its not set
<bluesabre-laptop> and that is how the correct menu file is discovered
<Noskcaj> bluesabre-laptop, I think my ftbfs is because you're using + instead of os.path.join to construct paths
<bluesabre-laptop> ok, I'll fix that.  I had mostly copied my setup.py from elsewhere, I'll fix that now
<Noskcaj> thanks
<bluesabre-laptop> Noskcaj: pushed, let me know if you need something else
<bluesabre-laptop> it will be so nice to be done with this part
#xubuntu-devel 2015-01-12
<knome> http://mirror.anl.gov/
<knome> oops. :)
<knome> so, they are quitting
<knome> that's the mirror we're linking to from our download page for US
<Unit193> Awwwh.
<knome> good thing i've just gone through the official ubuntu cd mirrors list and know which mirrors share xubuntu
<knome> so it should be almost a no-brainer
<knome> if you're logged in: http://xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/mirrors/
<pleia2> knome: battling the flu, added to my list for when I'm more lucid :)
<ochosi> humm, another fork, why not just contribute, i wonder... https://sites.google.com/site/chaletoslinux/home
<ochosi> ali1234: what's the status of your Orion branch btw?
<ali1234> it has squashed menus and selectors, other than that it is same as greybird
<ochosi> okeydokey
<ochosi> then just lemme know when you feel it's ready to get tested and i'll give it a shot
<ali1234> it's ready for testing now if you ignore the squashed things
<ochosi> right, squashed things sounds like it needs to be sorted before it can get merged
<ochosi> most of the menu code should be the same between greybird and orion
<ochosi> so you should be able to copy paste most of it
<ali1234> it's not just menus though
<ali1234> the menu code already is the same
<ali1234> other things are squashed though
<knome> ochosi, because obviously, xubuntu is so crap (:
<knome> ochosi, and looks like he's going for a winxp-lookalike clone
<ochosi> yeah
<Luyin> whom are we mocking? :D
<knome> xubuntu.
<knome> ochosi, the thing that is the worst is that they don't have their contact information anywhere
<ochosi> https://sites.google.com/site/chaletoslinux/about-author
<ochosi> there is an email-address ^
<knome> oh
 * knome facepalms
<knome> my excuse is that i've just woken up
<ochosi> what's the second-worse thing?
<ochosi> s/worse/worst/
<knome> i'm not sure
<ochosi> :]
<knome> there are two candidates
<knome> it's either
<ochosi> i would say the winxp-looks :>
<knome> 1) they don't collaborate with the xubuntu team and ask how they should proceed and then leave all xubuntu-traces there (i'm sure we will get support requests from that OS if people start using it)
<knome> or 2) they only change a small bit that would be very easily changeable within the host OS and thus waste people's time and bandwidth when they are doing the distro-hopping/testing
<knome> all the people who want a winxp-lookalike xubuntu should really just work together and build a metapackage that installs everything you need to make your system like that, then find somebody to upload and maintain it in the archive
<knome> furthermore, i don't understand this:
<knome>  Name ChaletOS came from the style of the mountain houses in Switzerland. The concept of these houses is similar to the concept that we had while we made this system: simplicity, beauty and recognizability. Since we want the new users feel at home, we expect this system to meet this goal. 
<ochosi> yeah, i guess for most it's icons+theme+xfce-settings.xml
<knome> that kind of high-flying advertising text written about xubuntu derivatives always makes me think the xubuntu team has failed what it is doing; or that the author is simply taking all the glory to themself
<knome> there's no mention of switzerland in the xubuntu strategy document
<knome> how is their OS suddenly so swiss?
<knome> when you made what system? changed the theme configuration file?
<knome> it might have wine preinstalled, there's a wine menuitem in one of the screenshots
<knome> i mean i understand that somebody was having fun in creating that little project, making xubuntu boot and install so that it looks different
<ochosi> might or might not. it's just a screenshot after all
<knome> great, you've achieved your goal!
<knome> https://sites.google.com/site/chaletoslinux/apps
<knome> right, yeah, no wine mentioned
<knome> they're installing both chrome and opera IN ADDITION to firefox
<knome> uhh
<knome> heh, it's also funny to see how he says that everything is familiar, then lists all of those "microsoft office webapps" and ultimately, ends the familiar names with telling how a thunar fork was made by an xfce user and tells how to enable a PPA ;)
<knome> (^ if you wonder what's funny about it, that doesn't communicate familiarity to me)
<knome> ok, i'm going phone-shopping now (:
<knome> hf and ttyl
<ochosi> good luck knome 
<slickymasterWork> elfy, brainwash, if you still want to change the importance of https://launchpad.net/bugs/1395720 I can do it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1395720 in catfish (Ubuntu) "authentication in livesession accepts any value as password" [High,Confirmed]
<ochosi> bluesabre, Unit193: could either of you package this xdg-utils for -staging so we can get ppl to test it? https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/xdg-utils/light-locker
<bluesabre> ochosi: with light-locker 1.5.1 and latest xfpm, screensaver timeouts work correctly
<ochosi> hm weird, ok, i'll do a clean install of vivid then...
<ochosi> (tonight or asap)
<ochosi> bluesabre: if you wanna give it some testing, just pull the branch and replace your local xdg-screensaver script with my version
<ochosi> if after playing fullscreen in parole your timeout is what it was, we're good
<bluesabre> I'll have to test it tonight... just did a reinstall last night, haven't set up my environment just yet
<ochosi> right, well at least for that you don't need much of an env
<ochosi> but yeah, no rush
<bluesabre> yeah, the big part is for the packaging :)
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> anyway, the changes to support light-locker should be tiny and trivial
<ochosi> (assuming that the fd.org dbus interface works as expected)
<bluesabre> does it work for you ? :)
<ochosi> well, i couldn't test it because my setup is somehow broken
<ochosi> as i said, the screen-blanking timeouts don't work atm with xfpm/ll
<ochosi> or i guess they might somehow work if i manually set them with xset
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> but i'd prefer if someone tried where everything is working
<bluesabre> makes sense
<bluesabre> gotta run for now, bbl
<ochosi> have a good one, ttyl!
 * ochosi is off for lunch
<slickymasterWork> knome, your last docs revision (http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/xubuntu-docs/vivid/revision/279) gave me a few errors building them
<slickymasterWork> http://pastebin.com/1eVeHjxQ
<slickymasterWork> all related to the translations script
<slickymasterWork> Unit193 ^^^
<Unit193> I don't really agree about the ChaletOS thing, if contacted are we actually going to try and change Xubuntu to be more like Windows?  Not really, there was a spec about that even.  The support issue stands, though of course.
<Unit193> slickymasterWork: And as to that, you need gnome-doc-utils installed, sudo apt get build-dep xubuntu-docs
<slickymasterWork> right you are, Unit193 :)
<brainwash_> ochosi: I'm using your xdg-screensaver and neither xdg-screensaver lock nor inhibit screen blanking while playing a movie do work
<ochosi> hm, strange
<brainwash_> do I have to upgrade light-locker?
<brainwash_> 1.5.1-0ubuntu1
<ochosi> you need 1.5.1
<brainwash_> does "xdg-screensaver lock" work for you?
<ochosi> the calls _should_ work with ll1.5.1, but i guess i'll have to check again
<ochosi> i'm not at home now, so i can't test
<brainwash_> ok, I'll gladly test it later again
<ochosi> you could try the dbus calls from the script directly in the terminal
<brainwash_> if you push more changes
<ochosi> to see what sort of reply you're getting
<brainwash_> sure
<brainwash_> nothing at all, maybe there is something wrong with the dbus call
<ochosi> yeah, it's possible, have to check again
<brainwash_> ok :)
<ochosi> last time i tried those fd.org dbus calls with light-locker, they worked
<ochosi> thanks for testing either way
<brainwash_> slickymasterWork: feel free to change the importance. I was just concerned about the security status (requesting a password and accepting any combination is a minor issue in a passworl-less environemt -> live session).
<knome> Unit193, no, but we can steer them towards contributing back to ubuntu, in the sense that the modifications would be available in the archive
 * Unit193 shrugs.
<bluesabre> good evening folks!
<knome> hullo bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hiya knome
<knome> everybody popping up at the same time
<ochosi> evening
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<ochosi> well i'm about to sneak out
<bluesabre> bai ochosi
<knome> if you didn't live across the globe from ochosi, i could swear you'd have something fishy going on
<knome> hah
<ochosi> Unit193: meh, right, so that xfwm4 branch is extremely crashy/unusable when switching windows with alt-tab
<ochosi> but good to know, thanks!
<knome> ochosi, see my PM before you go-go (don't let me hanging on like a yo-yo=
<Unit193> >_<
<bluesabre> ochosi: any word whether your xdg-screensaver fixes actually fixes the issue?
<knome> bluesabre, two possibilities; yes and no. does that help?
<knome> (:
<bluesabre> thanks knome!
<bluesabre> that really simplifies things
<knome> absolutely!
<ochosi> bluesabre: not really
<ochosi> i just tried the dbus commands that xdg-screensaver uses for the fd.org dubs
<ochosi> dbus
<ochosi> that doesn't seem to do anything, oddly
<ochosi> but i could also be messing it up, mostly cause i'm tired
<bluesabre> back to the drawing board
<ochosi> might take a look later this week
<ochosi> generally speaking, ll should support the fd.org dbus spec for screensavers
<ochosi> so it _should_ work
<bluesabre> :)
 * ochosi shrugs
<bluesabre> I use that word a lot too
<bluesabre> "should"
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> i remember successfully testing the dbus interface
<knome> heh
<ochosi> this was what i just tried: "dbus-send --session --dest=org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver --type=method_call /ScreenSaver org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver.Lock"
<ochosi> (light-locker is running)
<knome> so did i understand you right that this channel is full of "shoulders"
 * bluesabre thinks that is right
<knome> look what i did there!!! ^
<ochosi> bluesabre: and ll-command -l works fine
<ochosi> so it's running and working
<bluesabre> right
<ochosi> maybe there is an issue with the dbus interface not being compiled in?
<ochosi> packaging?
 * ochosi doesn't remember whether there was a build-time switch for that
<ochosi> maybe not
<ochosi> anyway, too tired for anything now
<ochosi> night all!
<Unit193> Well, it's only one package right?  So make install  should be putting everything in the package.
<brainwash_> bluesabre: can you please take a look at the recently attached log files in bug 1307545 ?
<ubottu> bug 1307545 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Power Manager settings are ignored when closing laptop lid" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307545
<brainwash_> maybe you'll find something odd, or know how to further debug it
#xubuntu-devel 2015-01-13
<Unit193> ochosi: That's massivly crashy, yes..  I'd thought you tested it.
<Unit193> brainwash: freshplayerplugin done anything good?
<elfy> ochosi bluesabre - looks like end Jan/beginning Feb for systemd default 
<ochosi> Unit193: nope, i just wanted the opportunity to test it
<brainwash_> ochosi: this dbus call works http://lpaste.net/118360
<brainwash_> "/org/freedesktop/ScreenSaver" instead of just "/ScreenSaver"
<Mez> What's the best way to go about reporting xubuntu security issues these days ?
<Mez> hello? Is this thing on?
<ochosi> Mez: i've already replied to your bugreport
<ochosi> brainwash: right. guess that means there'll have to be another bugreport. sucks cause i don't have kde around to try whether that works with their screensaver as well
<ochosi> Mez: no need for private chat, that bugreport could also just as well be public btw
<brainwash> which bug report? :)
<Mez> ochosi: I can film that bug if you want.
<Mez> It is definitely happening on multiple PCs here.
<ochosi> no need to film it
<Mez> might be something to do with multi-screen/whatever
<ochosi> have you checked whether light-locker is running?
<ochosi> (ps -A | grep light-locker)
<ochosi> and how do you lock your session?
<ochosi> brainwash: just the typical thing that we had a 1000 times already
<Mez> ochosi: light-locker is not currently running.  I lock my session using ctrl+alt+del
<brainwash> oh noes
<ochosi> Mez: if it isn't running, then start it. bug fixed.
<ochosi> how shall the locker lock the session if it isn't running?
<Mez> if I lock my screen, it shows it's running?
<ochosi> no,
<Mez>  % ps -A | grep light-locker                                                                        dev/packaging one
<Mez>  2853 ?        00:00:00 light-locker
<Mez> Sorry, my mistake, I thought that was actually the grep it'd brought back
<ochosi> so if you lock with light-locker-command -l from the terminal, what happens exactly?
<ochosi> brainwash: anyway, you have more experience with taking ppl through this, feel free to take over i gotta go in 5mins anyway
<Mez> ochosi: it switches me to a lock screen on vt8
<Mez> ochosi, and then I hit ctrl+alt+f7, and bypass entering my password 
<Mez> to get back to typing to you here.
<ochosi> Mez: i can't help you to debug this now, simply cause i don't have time
<ochosi> but it's working for pretty much everyone else, in case that helps you ;)
<ochosi> so clean install, update all packages and it should work
<ochosi> maybe someone else can help you get to the bottom of what's not working for you
<Mez> ochosi: This is a clean instlal, update all packages :)
<Mez> I'm setting up a VM to replicate it
<ochosi> bbl
<brainwash> Mez: kill the currently running instance of light-locker and restart it in debug mode "light-locker --debug"
<brainwash> now lock the screen
<brainwash> can you please link your bug report also?
<Mez> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1410195
<ubottu> Error: launchpad bug 1410195 not found
<Mez> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9728445/
<Mez> VM seems to work with the locked screen
<brainwash> Mez: your bug report is still not visible to all people (private)
<brainwash> the log file contains some error messages
<brainwash> in any case, if it's really a bug, please forward it upstream -> https://github.com/the-cavalry/light-locker
<brainwash> Unit193: maybe, test it and you will know
<brainwash> Unit193: I use chromium with pepperflash to view flash content, so I cannot tell
<Mez> brainwash: I've kinda tracked it down, so that post is public now
<knome> lderan, hullo
<knome> people, check your work item statuses in blueprints so they are uptodate
<brainwash> Mez: great :) and don't forget to file the upstream report
<bluesabre> knome: ofc
<bluesabre> Unit193: will have the new light-locker-settings released and uploaded tonight, so you can drop from the seed after that point
<bluesabre> ochosi: if you get a chance, can you also take a look at lightdm-gtk-greeter to see if there is anything else we want to merge/add for 2.0?
<bluesabre> elfy: would lightdm-gtk-greeter testing fit in before systemd?
<elfy> bluesabre: don't see why not if we're missing A2 
<ochosi> bluesabre: i guess we'd have to take a look at all those branches pending for merge against the greeter...
<elfy> bluesabre: just so you're aware - nothing is now planned until w/c 16Feb 
<brainwash> ali1234: can you reproduce bug 1379176 in 14.10 or 15.04 (ideally with a new user or clean profile)?
<ubottu> bug 1379176 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) ""Clear" button has no effect in Settings > Window Manager > Keyboard tab" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1379176
<ali1234> no
<brainwash> thanks for testing it :)
<knome> elfy, i'll drop the qa process stuff in the wiki today (within the next hours) now that i've cleaned up the proessses page
<pleia2> sorry for not doing the QA goodies blog post draft yet, came down with the flu on friday and just now starting to be less zombie today
<elfy> sort the health out first :)
<elfy> that's been hanging about since the middle of the last cycle another week isn't going to make a lot of difference
<elfy> or week(s) :)
<knome> pleia2, does that mean i can poke you about more things too? :P
<knome> time to work on $paid_work for a while now
<knome> but brb
<pleia2> knome: that means I'm now buried in work I didn't do for the next four days and won't be able to  add new work for a week or so ;)
<knome> awwh :(
<knome> pleia2, tell hp they made me work a lot on the flyer printing because linux printing is weird and that i would like you to get compensation for that as paid hours used to contribute to xubuntu
<pleia2> I use a Brother printer
<knome> pleia2, i said they made *me* to work a lot... ;)
<pleia2> heh :)
<knome> i remember back then when brother was publicly considered the "laser printer for people who can't afford a laser printer"
<knome> at least the people who i knew thoght that..
<knome> including my father :P
<Unit193> bluesabre: Wonderful, thanks.
<ochosi> evening all
 * dkessel spreads brother printers everywhere he installs ubuntu in the last years
<ochosi> feel free to stop by at my place, i could really use a printer
<brainwash> ochosi: want to take a look at some log files and comments (recently added)? bug 1307545
<ubottu> bug 1307545 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Power Manager settings are ignored when closing laptop lid" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307545
<dkessel> you can get a printer only model for less than 80â¬
<ochosi> brainwash: gah, not that again
<brainwash> ochosi: I know, but it's affecting many users, so maybe we can somehow solve the mystery
<Unit193> ochosi: Blame upower or systemd, that's always the in thing.
<ochosi> unfortunately it's mostly true
<brainwash> or find a way to get the correct log files
<brainwash> sadly, people blame the power manager for not being 100% compatible
<ochosi> for some reason the power manager says a few times that Action=org.freedesktop.upower.suspend is authorized=FALSE
<ochosi> for #19 it's obvious
<ochosi> the inhibit config doesn't include the lid-switch
<ochosi> it should be
<ochosi> Inhibiting systemd sleep: handle-power-key:handle-suspend-key:handle-hibernate-key:handle-lid-switch
<ochosi> but it is set to
<ochosi> Inhibiting systemd sleep: handle-power-key:handle-suspend-key:handle-hibernate-key
<ochosi> for b3nmore everything seems to work, so not sure i get why he's posting there
<ochosi> and yeah, his config reflects that
<brainwash> ah, so the logind-handle-lid-switch settings is wrong?
<brainwash> in the first case
<ochosi> my guess is that this is a simple update problem with old settings being kept
<ochosi> hence logind not being inhibited correctly
<ochosi> yeah, i would say so
<ochosi> but this is not a setting transparent to the user, so resetting the config should add the handle-lid-switch
<ochosi> frankly, i gave up on following that mess when it was decided to "invert the logic/naming"
<brainwash> yeah xD TRUE or FALSE.. what the heck is going on here
<brainwash> both options seem to have drawbacks
<ochosi> i guess logind-handle-lid-switch should be "false"
<ochosi> which options?
<brainwash> true or false
<ochosi> why?
<ochosi> you mean because of the black screen bug?
<brainwash> yes, it's a mess
<ochosi> i don't think that's a problem, iirc we fixed that
<ochosi> it just gives you control over logind but doesn't really inhibit it
<ochosi> so if you set it to suspend on lid close it just let's logind handle the whole thing
<brainwash> the last comment is confusing too
<ochosi> if you set it to lock or blank, it inhibits logind
<ochosi> so no downside
<ochosi> and the setting should be applied by xfpm itself in the background, depending on your other settings
<ochosi> so in b3nmore's case, logind doesn't handle the lid because he's just switching off the screen on lid-close
<ochosi> so logind-handle-lid-switch=false
<ochosi> (actually that *does* make sense)
<ochosi> f-pel has some odd setup, not sure why his output says that logind handles the lid
<ochosi> my guess is he only set "switch off screen" on battery, but has ac plugged in
<ochosi> something like that
<ochosi> or his config is still old and he didn't follow your instructions or managed to screw that step up
<ochosi> so, all clear? :)
<ochosi> well i might have to pastebin all i said for brainwash...
<ochosi> what a mess
<Unit193> Slightly, but you did see the global, no?
<brainwash> ochosi: b3nmore says that FALSE -> black screen bug, TRUE -> pm settings ignored
<brainwash> in utopic
<brainwash> for logind-handle-lid-switch
<brainwash> and FALSE is the default value
<ochosi> as i said, the power manager should change that value depending on your config
<brainwash> depending on the lid close action
<ochosi> yeah
<brainwash> so, the bottom line is that his black screen bug is has a different cause
<brainwash> -is
<ochosi> if logind handles the suspend-lid-action, then the black screen bug is not the one we fixed
<ochosi> then yeah, he's seeing something else
<ochosi> for instance, i consistently get that bug with the nouveau driver
<ochosi> with nvidia, everything is fine
<ochosi> actually i don't even get to the greeter anymore if i set lock on suspend to true
<brainwash> uhm, that's bad
<brainwash> hopefully this whole thing can be fixed before 16.04 :)
<ochosi> i dunno, i'm not actively pursuing this anymore
<ochosi> it's working for most people and we'll deactivate lock on suspend by default
<ochosi> as far as i can see, i've done all i can
<brainwash> ochosi: right, I'll try to close this report. the new logs and comments just confirmed that the default settings (if applied) work fine
<ochosi> brainwash: yes, that's how i read it
<ochosi> thing is, people will always obsess with this bug in some ways
<ochosi> just as there are 1000 bugreports on suspend not working nicely on linux in general
<ochosi> the only problem we have is that people think it's our fault when it isn't
<knome> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> hey knome 
<ochosi> and wb
<knome> time for a PM?
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> bluesabre: not sure what/who is at fault, but the spinner in catfish's statusbar is broken in Gtk3.14 (with all themes, incl. Ambiance and Adwaita)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-01-14
<bluesabre> ochosi: broken in the printer dialog as well
<bluesabre> ochosi: not sure if you're interested at this point, but do you want to give my latest light-locker-settings a spin? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~light-locker-settings-team/light-locker-settings/trunk/revision/121
<bluesabre> Unit193: feel free to drop it from the seed, I'll get it sponsored normally as needed when I think its good to go
<bluesabre> ochosi: aware of any missing icons?  I've spotted a few and can bug you about them
<bluesabre> ochosi: icon, and if you think the highlight on the popover seems odd http://imgur.com/Nv4RoSa
<ochosi> bluesabre: well obviously, you always need to tell me about missing icons!
<ochosi> oh right, hm, they obviously fixed file-roller showing a headerbar meanwhile (thanks Laney)
<Unit193> Oh?
<Unit193> \o/
<ochosi> bluesabre: pushed a fix for the popovers in greybird and found that missing cog (that must've changed names somehow, cause it worked when file-roller still had a headerbar)
<ochosi> since i did the release of greybird, quite a few patches have accumulated already...
<ochosi> i guess i'll have to do a point release quite soon
<lazybear_> hello, Ð·Ð´ÐµÑÑ ÐºÑÐ¾-Ð½Ð¸Ð±ÑÐ´Ñ Ð³Ð¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾-ÑÑÑÑÐºÐ¸?...
<ochosi> not sure whether that's russian or some other slavic language, however we speak english in here
<ochosi> !ru
<ochosi> hrm
<ubottu> ÐÐ¾Ð¶Ð°Ð»ÑÐ¹ÑÑÐ° Ð½Ð°Ð±ÐµÑÐ¸ÑÐµ /join #ubuntu-ru Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð»ÑÑÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¼Ð¾ÑÐ¸ Ð½Ð° ÑÑÑÑÐºÐ¾Ð¼ ÑÐ·ÑÐºÐµ. | Pozhalujsta naberite /join #ubuntu-ru dlya polucheniya pomoshi na russkom yazyke.
<ochosi> elfy: btw, that problem with xfpm's settings not being applied to X11 was resolved by me resetting xfpm's settings in xfce4-settings-editor (right click the xfpm item in the left column and hit reset)
<lazybear_> ty for help. I will join ru channel.
<Unit193> apt-offline 1.6 uploaded to experimental: https://tracker.debian.org/news/671624
<brainwash> ali1234: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/sadface.php :(
<ali1234> why you show me this?
<brainwash> it's a nice picture of a broken root background
<ali1234> it's a bug in whatever display manager is being used
<ali1234> it's clearly not lightdm-gtk-greeter therefore it's not our problem
<brainwash> so lightdm-gtk-greeter corrupts the background? it's fine while the the login screen is active, and breaks sometimes after login (~25%)
<ali1234> no, lightdm-gtk-greeter does not corrupt the background
<brainwash> it's xubuntu 15.04 + open source radeon driver
<brainwash> I did not notice this in 14.04 or 14.10
<ali1234> so it's a driver bug then
<ali1234> why is there a picture of a clock in the bottom left corner?
<brainwash> why the randomness? it works in most cases
<brainwash> that's a custom panel setup
<brainwash> if it happens randomly, then it should be fixable, or?
<ali1234> sure. just fix the radeon driver
<ali1234> or, preferably, stop buying AMD graphics hardware because it doesn't work properly
<brainwash> it did before :/
<brainwash> sad face
<ali1234> none of the open source drivers is at all reliable
<ali1234> intel driver has had a bug that corrupts the screen for years
<ali1234> nouveau crashes constantly
<brainwash> maybe radeon is now sharing bugs with nouveau (which corrupted the background in previous releases)
<ali1234> probably
<ali1234> try fglrx
<brainwash> I will
<ali1234> what do you see if you kill xfdesktop?
<ali1234> please disable xfdesktop when testing because it also messes with the background
<ali1234> actually xfdesktop might be the problem
<brainwash> xfdesktop usually restores the background (picture). I test and disable it
<ali1234> i think i might see the problem
<brainwash> ali1234: I disabled xfdesktop and it still happens
<ali1234> oh
<ali1234> well does it stay after everything else loaded up?
<brainwash> it happens with xfwm4 + built-in compositor and xfwm4 + compton
<ali1234> what happens?
<brainwash> yes, it stays broken/scrambled (without xfdesktop)
<brainwash> the root background
<ali1234> you can't see the root background when compositing is enabled
<brainwash> it breaks immediately after the greeter disappears
<ali1234> xfwm opens a fullscreen window with a copy of the real root background in it
<ali1234> so the problem must be with the greeter then
<brainwash> yes, the copied root background picture I meam
<ali1234> and xfwm is just copying the garbage
<brainwash> ah, yeah
<brainwash> maybe something changed in the greeter code recently
<ali1234> no
<brainwash> some parts have been rewritten by the new maintainer
<ali1234> which parts?
<brainwash> no idea, but I will test an older version later
<brainwash> the utopic one, or even trusty
<brainwash> in vivid
<ali1234> yes the greeter background code has been rewritten
<ali1234> the retain permanent code has been totally removed
<ali1234> so everyone will get this annoying shitty bug
<ali1234> thanks, new maintainer
<knome> tut tut
<brainwash> ali1234: oh.. just tested without compositor and the bug was also triggered
<ali1234> yes it would be
<ali1234> the new code doesn't draw anything into the root window
<brainwash> yeah, you've explained it
<ali1234> so it's just full of garbage
<brainwash> :(
<ochosi> well, can be fixed easily thouh
<ochosi> gh
<brainwash> ali1234: are you going to file a bug report?
<ali1234> yes
<brainwash> ok, thanks
<ochosi> ali1234: you can also just file a MR and i'll take care of that
<ali1234> i don't even know where to start
<ochosi> but yeah, in case you don't a report is probably good
<ali1234> the retain permanent code is totally deleted
<ochosi> then also link it to -v-bugs
<ali1234> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/trunk/revision/295
<slickymasterWork>  elfy, today's daily is uninstallable -> http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/ubiquity.php
<slickymasterWork> the problem is with ubi-console-setup.py
<ali1234> going for lunch then i will fix this
<slickymasterWork> it works in live session though
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: does the panel in ubiquity work as expected though?
<slickymasterWork> nopes
<ali1234> also if i find the greeter leaking pixmaps again i am going to be unhappy
<slickymasterWork> I'm now trying to retrieve the content of /var/log/syslog
<elfy> slickymasterWork: bug 1408495
<ubottu> bug 1408495 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Vivid) "Ubiquity crashes prior to keyboard configuration in 15.04" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408495
<brainwash> bluesabre, ochosi: new comments -> bugs 1307545
<ubottu> bug 1307545 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Power Manager settings are ignored when closing laptop lid" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307545
<brainwash> b3nmore claims that the default value for logind-handle-lid-switch is wrong in utopic
<brainwash> now with those new details we should be able to identify what's broken
<ali1234> okay, the retain permanent stuff was moved to a different file
<ali1234> but it doesn't work any more for some reason
<ali1234> 19222 al        20   0 19.146g 9.908g   5512 S  10.3 63.2 299:00.22 mousepad
<ali1234> i think we have a problem :(
<ali1234> on the bright side at least the computer isn't totally dying as soon as i hit swap
<ochosi> ali1234: tiny leaky-leak in mousepad? :}
<ali1234> yeah, i dunno what happened
<ochosi> maybe rename it to elephantpad then
<ochosi> largest footprint in town!
<ali1234> the weird thing is it wasn't growing
<ochosi> really odd though, i presume you only opened text-documents with it
<ali1234> and it's been like that for a couple of days
<ali1234> i've been wondering why my computer is slow for about a week now
<ochosi> hehe
<ali1234> so i'm  looking at this lightdm code
<ali1234> it looks reasonable but it doesn't work
<ali1234> master doesn't even build
<ali1234> ./configure: line 11669: syntax error near unexpected token `0.9.5'
<ali1234> ./configure: line 11669: `GOBJECT_INTROSPECTION_CHECK(0.9.5)'
<ali1234> i can't do anything until that is fixed
<brainwash> ali1234: the greeter package in vivid is pretty outdated, so I've installed a newer one from the daily ppa (mid dec 2014)
<brainwash> and the background is now fine
<brainwash> now, apport detects some segfault with the newer build. I'll report it later
<ali1234> i can't even get it to build
<brainwash> I haven't tried yet
<brainwash> but the daily ppa is pretty outdated (maybe there weren't any changes)
<brainwash> can you confirm that there is some delay after pressing the login button? it takes like 4-5sec until the greeter screen is destroyed and the actual session loads
<ali1234> no
<brainwash> very odd, authentication should not take that long.. time to check the logs
<brainwash> and test unity-greeter :D
<brainwash> ali1234: restarting lightdm fixed it
<ali1234> so what commit is the packaged version on?
<ali1234> bug 1366534
<ubottu> bug 1366534 in Light Display Manager "lightdm lefts a11y (at-spi*) process behind" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1366534
<ali1234> bug 1377743
<ubottu> bug 1377743 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "indicator services restart after every resume" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377743
<elfy> ochosi: been getting this http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-140115-164821.php when coming back from lock screen
<elfy> any idea? seen it before? 
<elfy> or indeed anyone else :)
<slickymasterWork> haven't get that one yet elfy :P
<slickymasterWork> s/get/got
<ochosi> elfy: never seen that before
<ochosi> happens with a clean user profile too?
<elfy> hard to tell as it's not a constant 
<elfy> I couldn't lock now and be sure to see it 
<ochosi> okeydokey
<ochosi> gotta run
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: can't say for sure i'll make the meeting
<ochosi> having unforeseen guests tonight
<ochosi> bbl
<slickymasterWork> ok ochosi 
<slickymasterWork> hf
<elfy> forgot meeting tonight - got confused with the meeting tomorrow ... 
<slickymasterWork> som many meetings, so little time
<fabio> xfce4-volumed: how to change the volume step size?+
<fabio> perhaps using the same alsamixer scale that is more proportional 
<fabio> this is a big deal with large speakers
<fabio> (too loud volume from a step to one more)
<ali1234> why aren't you using indicator-sound?
<elfy> would still do it in whatever incremement the system uses 
<elfy> I used to do it with amixer set
<elfy> but now I just use the volume on the amp 
<fabio> alil1234 indicator-sound works only with mouse.. if i kill xfce4-volumed, the keyboard volume keys do not work anymore
<fabio> works
<ali1234> yeah, that's why the step is different
<dkessel> please ping me too when the meeting starts - last time i missed most of it until i got a ping from someone halfway through it ;)
<slickymasterWork> I'll do it dkessel ;)
<elfy> so you should :p
<dkessel> \o/
<slickymasterWork> if I won't elfy will poke me for sure
<elfy> positively
<slickymasterWork> heh
<slickymasterWork> heading home ->
<elfy> yea ... running off more like 
<elfy> dkessel: 10 minute ish warning :)
<slickymaster> !team | meeting time!
<ubottu> meeting time!: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<knome> oh, the meeting is this late
<knome> i thought i already missed it ;)
<elfy> nope
<elfy> it's on the wiki :D
<slickymaster> no you haven't :)
<pleia2> o/
<slickymaster> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 14 21:59:51 2015 UTC.  The chair is slickymaster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slickymaster> Who's here for the meeting?
<pleia2> o/
<knome> o/
<elfy> hobgoblin is 
<slickymaster> #chair knome pleia2 elfy 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome pleia2 slickymaster
<dkessel> o/
<slickymaster> Unit193, finished eating?
<slickymaster> so
<slickymaster> #topic Open action items
<Unit193> slickymaster: Not started.
<slickymaster> let's see
<slickymaster> elfy ->  talk with dev people about releasing/not releasing a2
<slickymaster> care to elaborate on that?
<elfy> done - we're not
<slickymaster> also elfy -> add proposed schedule to incentive pad (http://pad.ubuntu.com/QAIncentive)
<elfy> done that
<slickymaster> damn, you don't miss one ;)
<pleia2> yes, thanks elfy!
<elfy> pleia2: I thought I pinged you about that - sorry if I forgot 
<bluesabre> Hey all
<slickymaster> I think that covers it all
<elfy> hi bluesabre 
<pleia2> elfy: you did, I was in flu fugue state :)
<slickymaster> hey bluesabre, welcome
<slickymaster> moving on then
<pleia2> (on the mend now)
<elfy> pleia2: oh good - thought I'd forgotten to say 
<slickymaster> #topic Team updates
<slickymaster> pleasi don't forget to use #info
<slickymaster> anyone?
<elfy> #info QA - nothing much done since last meeting
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to draft stickers+incentives blog post for QA contributor giveaways
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to draft stickers+incentives blog post for QA contributor giveaways
<slickymaster> knome, I think you have something
<knome> slickymaster, yes, please give me some time ;)
<slickymaster> okie doke
<bluesabre> #info light-locker integration added to xfce4 power - manager 
<bluesabre> Giving up on trying to type with my phone keyboard...
<slickymaster> lol
<knome> #info knome worked on updating and improving the responsive design for documentation
<pleia2> #info pleia2 firmed up Global Jam Xubuntu QA event at Gandi on Sunday, February 8th (2000 - 0100 UTC)
<pleia2> would be nice to have some folks lurking around here so I can have people join and ask where to submit bugs ;)
<knome> #info knome looked at exporting docbook to pdf - exports look pretty bare/bad and images are not working correctly; the exports might not be worth it since doing that requires substantially more dependencies
<pleia2> also introduce the newcomers to some Xubuntu devs (make sure you don't bite them)
<slickymaster> I'm inclined to agree with you knome 
<slickymaster> on the conversion
<Unit193> #info light-locker-settings removed from the seed.
<bluesabre> Yay
<knome> #info knome and pleia2 added press/marketing contact information to xubuntu.org
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to update docs.xubuntu.org, knome has updated the bzr repo
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to update docs.xubuntu.org, knome has updated the bzr repo
<knome> #info knome has worked hard on refreshing the website looks to match 2015/the OS
<knome> #info knome created a page with all mirrors mirroring xubuntu ISOs
<slickymaster> busy bee
<knome> #info mirror.anl.gov (our preferred US mirror) is shutting down services on feb 1, we need to list another US mirror
<knome> #info knome finalized and copied a better looking mailman info page to -devel and -users
<knome> #action pleia2 to copy mailman info page assets under static.xubuntu.org
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to copy mailman info page assets under static.xubuntu.org
<knome> #info knome cleaned up the processes wiki page, organizing stuff under subpages; feedback welcome on irc/mailing list
<pleia2> knome: I forget, is static.x.o stuff in a bzr repo? maybe it should be
<pleia2> I think it's not
<knome> pleia2, i'll set that up
<pleia2> thanks
<slickymaster> I did like the new layout of the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes page
<knome> #action knome to set up a repository for static.xubuntu.org content
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to set up a repository for static.xubuntu.org content
<knome> hmm, i think that's it for now for my updates
<pleia2> me too
<slickymaster> is not so dense/heavy now
<knome> yep, it's definitely an improvement
<slickymaster> anything else?
<knome> and i'll update it with the qa stuff once i find it on my email
<knome> /hd
<slickymaster> going once
<knome> as i said, from me yes
<slickymaster> going twice
<slickymaster> ok
<slickymaster> #topic Announcements
<slickymaster> nothing from me
<bluesabre> Nothing here at the time
<elfy> First milestone we'll take part in is Beta 1 wk 18 
<slickymaster> ok team, please be sure to take an active stand on the testing side of B1
<pleia2> or sooner :)
<elfy> bluesabre: while that reminds me - any plans to drag anything from staging into default pre-Beta 
<slickymaster> I presume you'll be mailing everyone (ML) prior to it elfy
<elfy> oh - there is the Community Council meeting tomorrow btw
<elfy> slickymaster: ofc
<slickymaster> :)
<Unit193> I've already done all the testing upgrades I have.
<elfy> ty :)
<slickymaster> CC meeting at what time and channel elfy?
<pleia2> 1700 #ubuntu-meeting
<elfy> -meeting 1700UTC
<elfy> ha 
<bluesabre> Elfy: stable releases and any patches we want to carry. Will work with Unit193 and ochosi
<elfy> beat you :D
<slickymaster> thanks for the heads up on that
<pleia2> elfy: I'm just happy we agree
<elfy> bluesabre: ok :)
<elfy> pleia2: lol
<pleia2> it's been a long week :)
<slickymaster> and we're only half way through it pleia2 :P
<pleia2> indeed
<slickymaster> alrighty
<elfy> not here - weekend starts tomorrow lunch time :D
<knome> pleia2, is it too much to ask to tar the current assets somewhere?
<pleia2> knome: can do, sec
<knome> ta
<slickymaster> #topic Discussion
<elfy> shall rattle on a bit about newish things 
<slickymaster> #subtopic Discuss replacing gnome-calculator with galculator (to get rid of CSD)
<slickymaster> it's still in the agenda
<elfy> I thought this was now nothing to worry about?
<knome> i thought it was ok as well
<elfy> still no idea what csd is 
<slickymaster> it wasn't removed from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meeting so I thought it was still an open item
<Unit193> Doesn't look OK here, but maybe it will later...
<bluesabre> Yeah, I think the Ubuntu team is continuing to add patches to get rid of csd
<elfy> no idea - forgotten - and I still don't know what csd is 
<elfy> so I would say leave it be :p
<slickymaster> lol, will someone explain it, pretty please
<slickymaster> Unit193, bluesabre ^^
<bluesabre> "Client Side Decorations"
<slickymaster> thanks
<Unit193> Which means the application can decide what it's menus and stuff look like, not the window manager.
<bluesabre> Basically applications are composited on their own instead of by xfwm, so it messes up integration and causes issues
<elfy> aah ok - thanks :) 
<elfy> wasn't something else the *same* ? 
<bluesabre> Xfce had acceptable support for it now, but it can still be a headache
<knome> fwiw, branch for static assets set up (not updated for new stuff yet)
<pleia2> thanks knome 
<slickymaster> thanks knome 
<pleia2> just a general discussion thing, I'm a bit over-committed this cycle between Real Job and other things, if anyone has interest in marketing blueprint things (like picking up with surveys) please jump in, I might not get to them
<pleia2> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-v-marketing
<elfy> looking 
 * slickymaster also
<knome> pleia2, i just marked one of your items to DONE today ;)
<elfy> I could find some time given that qa is taking so much of my time this cycle
<pleia2> I thought I wouldn't travel as much, but it turns out I really like airplanes
<pleia2> knome: yeah!
<elfy> pleia2: wing me what you have for the user survey 1 and I'll have a look 
<knome> i won't promise anything, but i'll be working with the flyers anyway, so getting those printed might be done by somebody else than you
<slickymaster> knome, haven't you already sorted out the alignment for printing?
<knome> slickymaster, mostly, see the whiteboard
<elfy> given that it's in progress
<slickymaster> ok
<pleia2> elfy: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
<pleia2> elfy: our last discussion on it went bikeshed, so I lost all energy
<knome> :(
<knome> i'm sorry
<elfy> yea - kind of saw that 
<elfy> pleia2: I'll see if I can move it on
<elfy> blueprinted me for those 2 
<pleia2> knome: no one's fault, I don't know what I'm doing survey-wise so it's hard to argue my simple-is-good points :)
<knome> heh
<pleia2> thanks elfy 
<elfy> welcome - might motivate me a bit more than I am atm :)
<knome> linked the survey pad ot the whiteboard for future reference
<slickymaster> go elfy go elfy go elfy 
<slickymaster> good idea knome 
<bluesabre> brb
 * slickymaster usually spends some time looking for the pad's urls
 * elfy doesn't - or just looks in his index of stuff :D
<slickymaster> anything else anyone wants to throw to the table?
<slickymaster> ok, this one was a short one
<slickymaster> #action pleia2 to schedule next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to schedule next meeting
<elfy> yea 
<slickymaster> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 14 22:31:35 2015 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-01-14-21.59.moin.txt
<elfy> sorry and all that :)
<pleia2> aw man
<elfy> oh good lord 
<slickymaster> lol
<elfy> bad slickymaster :|
<elfy> :p
<slickymaster> no escape pleia2 
<pleia2> :)
<knome> i'll do pleia2's meeting
<slickymaster> now to fight the wiki
<elfy> bluesabre: one of the things that maybe we could look at - the imgur in screenshots that Unit193 has - really like that
<knome> pleia2, that is, if you don't necessarily want to do it...
<pleia2> knome: thanks, it's ok, I'll do it :)
<knome> oki
<bluesabre> back
<knome> as you wish
<pleia2> will have to be next week though, because then fosdem
<bluesabre> elfy: that does sound like a good one
<knome> next week sounds fair, not again too many updates ;)
<elfy> bluesabre: yea - but mostly what I was getting at was mousepad seems to be a bit more *advanced* in staging than the dev version - don't use parole enough to notice
<elfy> but getting as many of those things in before 23rd February means they'd be there for B1
<bluesabre> yeah, I think (hopefully) we'll have a new stable mousepad soon... the -staging one is pretty great compared to whats in the archive
<elfy> and as well as pointing testers at milestones we can ALSO point them at those things
<elfy> ofc - if they're in before - we can just point people at those - BUT 
<elfy> I'd like enough notice to be able to get the testcases updated :D
<bluesabre> looks like feature freeze is feb 23, so we'll start pushing now
<knome> yay
<bluesabre> woops
<bluesabre> feb 19
<knome> heh
<knome> just enough time anyway
<elfy> bluesabre: oh - yea ofc - so week before B1 :)
<pleia2> I'll be in Oman
<knome> D:
<elfy> that imgur thing's probably the thing I've missed most since the clean install I did last week 
<pleia2> :D
<elfy> not got Unit193's ppa in yet 
<knome> pleia2, o
<knome> eh
<pleia2> coming home on the 20th though
<bluesabre> D:D
<elfy> pleia2: not an excuse :D
<knome> pleia2, "o'man", says i
<pleia2> haha
<bluesabre> nice
<knome> pleia2, just at the right time to write release notes!
<pleia2> haha
<elfy> dkessel: just a quick one - there are autopilot things on QA blueprint - do they need to be postponed? 
<slickymaster> minutes are (finally) up
<elfy> that's quicker than I do them
<slickymaster> wiki was on my side today elfy 
<bluesabre> stepping away for dinner, bbiab
<dkessel> elfy: there is a 50% chance they need to be, i say
<slickymaster> enjoy bluesabre 
<elfy> dkessel: ok - well I'm kinda cool with you just taking the time tbh - would be really nice to get them for the next LTS perhaps 
<elfy> so - mark them postponed if you need - I'll certainly not get in the way of you doing it :)
<dkessel> Okidokey
<elfy> might be time to try and do another mailing list post for it - I can imagine being the only person looking to be quite daunting 
<slickymaster> FWIW, I removed the item about replacing gnome-calculator with galculator from the discussion topic
<elfy> and I do apologise that I can't help and that it's all voodoo to me :(
<brainwash> should gnome-mines be replaced too? I noticed that it uses CSD too now
<elfy> I'd lose games completely given the chance
<brainwash> you can't do that!
<slickymaster> +1 on that
<elfy> +1 on can't or doing it ?
<brainwash> no games? should the user play some bad browser games instead? flash ones? :>
<slickymaster> getting rid of them
<Unit193> What's new in mousepad then?
<Unit193> elfy: That's a git snapshot, older one now, they want to release and just need nick to give them the permission so it should be released soon.
<elfy> Unit193: imgur? 
<Unit193> Yep.
<elfy> Unit193: mousepad from my perspective is mostly enhanced menu options - obviously a text editor is a text editor 
<elfy> as gnome options go down ... xfce go up lol
<Unit193> Hah. :D
<knome> elfy, good news, found the qa process stuff while waiting for PS to work ;)
<knome> elfy, dropping games - exactly what i was thinking the other day
<knome> shipping games is so 90's
<knome> and the fact is that most people play browser games anyway
<slickymaster> or console ones
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> I would be +1 on dropping them
<drc> Unless you ship Gargoyle (for Interactive Fiction), which is so 80's :)
<knome> and legacy gamers probably enjoy playing stuff with emulators anyway
<elfy> the way I see it is - there's only likely to be people like me who want solitaire 
<knome> elfy, in that case they can install it
<slickymaster> drc we'd have to create a mullet section for the 80s ganes ;)
<knome> elfy, games aren't critical for production environments without online connectivity
<elfy> knome: yea - that's my point 
<knome> yep.
<elfy> if I have to install something I use - I can install something I don't ... :)
<knome> heh
<elfy> and ... 
<elfy> NEXT cycle - because you've not got rid of me yet - remove abiword and gnumeric and install something else 
<knome> or drop and don't replace
 * knome hides
<slickymaster> you're only going to be allowed to leave after the next LTS elfy 
<elfy> I mean - use abiword - which one first use - spawns new ones if you've not got the mouse in the right place
<elfy> come on ... 
<elfy> slickymaster: I'm off Feb 2016 
<elfy> oh whoops - is that mid-cycle? 
<brainwash> how about replacing apps with web links for online apps? :D
 * knome sighs at client work
<slickymaster> we won't let you and will hunt you down
<elfy> brainwash: how about not :)
<brainwash> it's the future!
<elfy> knome: that's the nature of self-employment 
<knome> no
<knome> that's the nature of WORK :|
<elfy> brainwash: yep - the UK is going to superfast broadband - that actually really means 2 mb/s or whatever 
<knome> haha
<elfy> knome: you laugh - I'm serious :(
<knome> and my 3Mbps upload speed actually means "somewhere along 2Mbps"
<slickymaster> lamo
<elfy> that's their idea of it 
<drc> less the overhead for serveillence and backdoors.
<knome> otoh "A super-fast 100Mbps line" on the competitor means "You'll get maybe 8Mbps and it's more unreliable than the local post office"
 * knome picks smaller ISP with their own backbone, sooo much more reliable
<elfy> here - the infrastructure belongs to BT - everyone else rents 
<knome> that's how it used to be until late too
<elfy> so - buy what you like, but if there's an issue - you talk to your supplier who talks to them
<knome> now we have that one other considerable ISP with their backbone
<elfy> knome: yea - when I was a kid - it all belonged to us 
<elfy> then politics 
<knome> well, yeah, one company owns the connection centers in each house
<knome> so kind of same
<knome> but if the backbone breaks, then the ISP can do something
<knome> mum's internet was down for a few days last year or so
<knome> because somebody had misconnected stuff
<knome> not ISPs fault
<knome> and when i first got my new connection from this ISP
<knome> it took like months
<knome> because the company who owns the connection boxes didn't do their work
<knome> but fair enough, i didn't pay for anything for that time, nor the first two connected weeks
<bluesabre> I'd be +1 for getting rid of games from default install
<elfy> that's almost good then 
<slickymaster> at least we could discuss it in the next meeting
<elfy> I'd swap games for imgur :D
<elfy> I'll add it
<slickymaster> ok
<knome> elfy, hah
<elfy> there we go 
<elfy> slipped a bit 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-01-15
<bluesabre> Unit193: do we want apt-offline 1.6?
<bluesabre> ochosi: saw and packaged your latest greybird addition for daily, https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/xubuntu-artwork/shimmer-themes-debian/revision/6
<knome> qa processes are up @ wiki
<bluesabre> nice knome
<knome> yep, getting things done lately
<bluesabre> ochosi: got a potentially new one for you, http://imgur.com/CfaquBf
<knome> pleia2, updated the assets branch (https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website/xubuntu-website/static-assets), ping me when you've pushed to production
<Unit193> Could use git! :D
<knome> everything else is under that project, makes no sense to diverge.
<knome> (i know you're kidding)
<Unit193> I was going to trollingly say that, but that was in the middle of the meeting.
<knome> well done ;)
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, noticed the bluetooth icon messup. after a theme-switch back and forth it fixed itself though and i don't think there are actually icons missing/wrong
 * ochosi reads up on backlog
<brainwash> ochosi: b3nmore has added additional test results and feedback. do you follow the "power manager ignores lid close settings" report?
<ochosi> brainwash: i do, but as i said, i have too many other things on my agenda atm
<brainwash> ochosi: I understand. I just want to make sure that you or bluesabre take a look at the recent test results and maybe add some comment (if you notice something odd).
<brainwash> it feels like we are getting somewhere
<brainwash> now that makes me wonder, how do other (logind based) distros manage to avoid this problem..
<ochosi> less options usually
<ochosi> and less modularity
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, meh, i might have to fix something there with the bluetooth icon
<slickymasterWork> hey ochosi, morning
<ochosi> hi slickymasterWork 
<slickymasterWork> ochosi I noticed that isn't updated for a while. Is there someone in charge of that or can any of us in the team do it?
<slickymasterWork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive ^^ 
<slickymasterWork> :P
<slickymasterWork> last addition to it was from 2014-12-11 meeting
<ochosi> i presume that it has to be manually updated if it isn't up-to-date
<ochosi> but i'm not sure
<ochosi> maybe it just needs some switch flipped for 2015
<ochosi> knome: ^
<ochosi> gah, the wiki is so slooooow
<slickymasterWork> ok, let's wait to see knome input on it
<ochosi> if the wiki ever saves the page, i've added 2015 into the mix
<slickymasterWork> wiki -> business as usual ochosi :P
<ochosi> knome: nvm that
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: ok done
<slickymasterWork> yeah, noticed :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: i recently added a second notification theme to greybird, would be great if we could package that so it gets installed in the right place (i.e. /usr/share/themes/Greybird-bright/): https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/tree/master/xfce-notify-4.0_bright
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> lunchtime, bbiab
<bluesabre> ochosi: way ahead of you....
<bluesabre> [19:39:20] <bluesabre> ochosi: saw and packaged your latest greybird addition for daily, https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/xubuntu-artwork/shimmer-themes-debian/revision/6
<ochosi> wooot
<ochosi> nice work bluesabre :)
<ochosi> note to self: actually check the links bluesabre posts
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> note to self: stop dropping ochosi links for huge money transfers
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> still have to find the proper fix for the bluetooth mess
<ochosi> why oh why does blueman have to use the same icon name for tray and settings-app...
<ochosi> would be nice to port xfce4-notifyd to gtk3 btw, that would make many things (e.g. monochrome icons) a lot easier to use
<brainwash> ochosi: the MATE team has some problems with xdg-utils too https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=754219
<ubottu> Debian bug 754219 in xdg-utils "several breakages in xdg-utils 1.1.0~rc1 (esp. MATE)" [Important,Open]
<brainwash> you have said that someone will package a newer release or git snapshot, right?
<ochosi> for debian you mean?
<brainwash> ubuntu mainly
<ochosi> my original plan was to get a patched version with light-locker support into ubuntu and submit a patch upstream
<brainwash> currently no one cares about this package in ubuntu or debian
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> hmpf, really don't know what to do about that blueman icon...
<ochosi> bluesabre: hmmm, i wonder whether we can use this somehow: https://github.com/blueman-project/blueman/commit/9733f33a4d590d1c676b80dec37487fed077b060
<bluesabre> ochosi: is anybody maintaining notifyd?  I was wanting to put some fixes in for that anyway :)
<ochosi> i don't think there's an active maintainer atm
<ochosi> jeromeg has been away for quite a few years already
<ochosi> but you can ask gaston, i think they were in touch because of screenshooter
<bluesabre> ok
<ochosi> will you be around this weekend?
<ochosi> (i'd like to take a look at the state of the greeter with you, if you have time)
<ochosi> ali1234 reported that master doesn't build and we seem to be having a problem with the root pixmap again
<ochosi> also, all those branches...
<bluesabre> ideally, yes I'll be around
<knome> discussion on #xubuntu reminds me we probably should look at updating our "keeping safe" section of the docs
<slickymasterWork> you mean the discussion about virus and dualboot knome?
<brainwash> ochosi: the root pixmap issue seems to be resolved in the daily ppa (I could not reproduce it anymore). the current package in vivid just seems to be really outdated
<knome> slickymasterWork, yes
<ochosi> bluesabre: ok, well we can keep in touch and see whether we can maybe reserve a specific time that fits both our schedules
<knome> since sidi is a "security expert" and whined about that, maybe he can give constructive feedback on that
<ochosi> +1
<slickymasterWork> you're thinking on adding something about file sharing within the two SOs?
<sidi> was my name mentioned?
<slickymasterWork> just vaguely sidi 
<ochosi> sidi: work work work
<sidi> ochosi, brilliant idea.
<knome> slickymasterWork, i meant updating the documentation :)
<knome> sidi, ^
<bluesabre> ochosi: sounds good
<ochosi> brainwash: btw, your patch for xdg-screensaver seems to work, i guess we should try to get that pushed to ubuntu
<bluesabre> ochosi, brainwash: link?
<ochosi> bluesabre: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1363540
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1363540 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "xdg-screensaver resume does not restore previous X11 screensaver timeout" [Medium,Confirmed]
<bluesabre> we can toss that into -staging while waiting
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i think that's a pretty good idea
<knome> isn't that what -staging is about :)
<ochosi> so yeah, just tested again, without the patch :(. with the patch :)
<ochosi> knome: yeah, i just hadnt really had time to test the patch, is all
<knome> ...isn't that what -staging is about :)
<ochosi> and i originally wanted to pursue a different solution
<ochosi> which i still might do, but the patch is valuable either way
<brainwash> it's just a shell script and I've attached the patched version to the report already, so it can be easily tested
<bluesabre> yup, I'll diff that and check it out :)
<ochosi> i think the patch is in the upstream report
<ochosi> so no need to diff
<brainwash> it's git version + patch
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> well apart from the silly code duplication in ubuntu not much has changed upstream i think
<brainwash> if someone packages the new git version, he could drop many of the debian patches
<ochosi> Unit193: wanna push newer xdg-utils to debian? (or at least get in touch with someone about that)
<ochosi> debian-liaison ftw :)
<bluesabre> :D
<brainwash> the MATE team would benefit also
<ochosi> bluesabre: i've submitted a bugreport about the blueman icon upstream, i only have a dirty dirty workaround and it doesn't give us the monochrome icon i think
<bluesabre> time to patch blueman into oblivion
<ochosi> anyway, i'll meanwhile push my patch
<ochosi> on second thought it's working better than i feared
<ochosi> bluesabre: lemme know whether that problem doesn't go away after the most recent patch for e-xfce
<bluesabre> k
<bluesabre> heading out, bbl
<knome> why did we want to drop l-l-s from the seed again?
<ochosi> because those settings now live in xfpm-settings
<knome> fair enough
<ochosi> there's a "security" tab now
<knome> yep
<knome> i was just wondering as i saw that since i obviously didn't register that well enough before
<knome> i'm off, let's see if i'm back for the CC checkup
<knome> tara
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: btw, that change ^ (l-l-s being replaced by a tab in xfpm-settings) should probably reflected in the 15.04 docs...
<ochosi> bbl
<brainwash> bluesabre: is it worth to apply the workaround for https://github.com/chjj/compton/issues/189 to the xubuntu compton config?
<brainwash> bluesabre: shadow-exclude = [ "_GTK_FRAME_EXTENTS@:c" ];
<slickymasterWork> in our current documentation there are no references anywhere  to the light locker settings ochosi 
<slickymasterWork> there's just one small sub-section about screen locking -> http://docs.xubuntu.org/1404/guide-keeping-safe.html#lock-your-screen
<slickymasterWork> an it falls within the Keeping your computer safe chapter
<slickymasterWork> knome, re what you said earlier about updating the "Keeping your computer safe" do you want to wait from some pointers from sidi or are you willing to try sketch something this weekend?
<sidi> knome, ping me this weekend wrt that
<slickymasterWork> thanks sidi :)
<slickymasterWork> I'll be around this weekend so between the three of us, we get it done
<sidi> slickymaster, sure. note I have no clue on earth what I signed up for
<sidi> but I love to rant about security advice so
<sidi> wont miss an opportunity
<slickymasterWork> we'll be here to here your rants gladly sidi 
<slickymasterWork> s/here/hear
<sidi> you'll be hear to here? :P
<elfy> I'll be here to giggle 
<sidi> elfy, good
<sidi> elfy, giggle for entropy
<pleia2> anyone about for the CC catch up over in #ubuntu-meeting?
<pleia2> ochosi, bluesabre, knome?
<knome> pleia2, sorry, didn't quite make it
<knome> unless you're still running :)
<elfy> finished knome 
<knome> ok, good
<pleia2> hah
<elfy> these 2 random peeps turned up and said stuff
<knome> :D
<knome> very random
<elfy> one was randomer 
<knome> heh
<knome> so what's the outcome?
<elfy> randomness wins everytime :)
<knome> the xubuntu team will be deceased and developers decapitated for bad work?
<pleia2> everything is awesome except it's hard to get testers probably because testing is hard
<pleia2> dholbach also invited a Xubuntu person to the weekly community Q&A - any volunteers? :)
<pleia2> I know we're a camera-shy bunch
<pleia2> I don't want to do it
<knome> i voluntell elfy
<elfy> you voluntell away - I'll be driving 
<knome> :D
<knome> what's the time of the meeting?
<knome> maybe we could organize a few q&a's per cycle
<knome> with varying people showing up from xubuntu
<PaulW2U> pleia2: testing is not hard. the reporting of the results of the testing puts testers off further testing
<knome> PaulW2U, and that leads us to another topic; if there is anything that would make it easier (considerin you'd still have to use the same tools), what would that be?
<pleia2> PaulW2U: a lot of folks struggle with even creating USB sticks :(
<elfy> knome: usually 1600
<pleia2> PaulW2U: but yeah, my "testing is hard" comment encompassed everything from making the stick, using the tracker, submitting bugs; the whole process has a lot of pain points where people quit
<knome> pleia2, no wonder since unetbootin and usb-creator-gtk work/don't work alternately each cycle :P
<pleia2> knome: indeed
<knome> elfy, any day?
<knome> pleia2, *i* have problems creating usb sticks
<pleia2> me too
<elfy> seem to be tuesdays knome 
<knome> i can obviously overcome them, but yeah, that's not easy :(
<knome> or good:(
<knome> elfy, oki
<pleia2> I asked lubuntu to see what they do, but they struggle as well (using a dd tool, but dd is hard on usb sticks, especially cheap ones)
<elfy> I don't have problems creating them - but have to know how to force the boot with them 
<PaulW2U> pleia2: Submitting bugs against the right package is where testers such as I often struggle
<pleia2> PaulW2U: yeah, me too
<elfy> PaulW2U: same 
<pleia2> PaulW2U: I'm hosting a global jam in san francisco in a few weeks, having contributors join here so we can get help mostly with that specific issue
<elfy> at the end of the day - as long as bug is reported and linked on the tracker - people can always tidy up afterwards
<pleia2> last time I did this (september 2013) some devs even fixed issues on the spot, so we didn't even need bugs :D
<pleia2> or at least, the bugs were on the radar immediately, even if not in the right spot exactly
<elfy> but knowing package to report against is always going to be an issue for the bulk of people 
<knome> pleia2, elfy: technically, is the weekly q&a a g+ hangout?
<elfy> personally I would rather bug got reported - even against the wrong thing - at least it's then visible 
<elfy> knome: I believe so 
<knome> ok, added an agenda item
<elfy> ok
<pleia2> knome: yeah
<elfy> ok - wandering for a bit now 
 * pleia2 wanders to work
<knome> i don't have any problems people testing xubuntu reporting bugs against xubuntu-desktop if that helps
<knome> it's often trivial enough for people involved to figure out the right package
<elfy> knome: yea - that I meant to say 
<knome> if it isn't, then it's usually a nastyish bug, and needs developer triaging anyway
<knome> yep
<Unit193> ochosi: You know Debian is still in freeze, so likelyhood of getting anything in that's not a security update is low and hard?
<Unit193> Err, right.  Thanks for updating the blueprint.
<elfy> brainwash: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1410760/comments/2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1410760 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Can't assign Ctrl+Fn as global hotkey" [Undecided,New]
<elfy> I can - exactly the same in clementine 
<elfy> that is I can confirm it :)
<elfy> ctrl+f8 is set for workspace 8 - don't appear to be able to change that key combination
<Unit193> You normally can change that in xfwm4-settings
<elfy> aah yes
<elfy> not sure why it won't let you force the issue without removing the old ctr+fn 
<Unit193> Some shortcut conflicted with LibreOffice too, had to remove it.
<brainwash> elfy: it's strange. I did not expect this to happen in 14.10 and up
<brainwash> ali1234: do you actually see the corrupted root background or assume that it has to be broken (code-wise)?
<ali1234> i never see corruption because i am using virtualbox
<ali1234> i see a grey background because that's the default
<brainwash> the daily ppa package fixes it for me. no clue which branch or tweaks it really includes
<ali1234> what daily ppa?
<brainwash> https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+archive/ubuntu/daily
<brainwash> package was built 5 weeks ago
<brainwash> "daily"
<brainwash> I've only noticed that the greeter draws a grey background before loading the actual background picture
<brainwash> this was fixed months ago I think and is now back after the rewrite
<ali1234> nope, that ppa also does not work
<brainwash> for you :)
<ali1234> it's not even close to working
<brainwash> but I see no visual breakage, so it somehow "works" :(
<brainwash> and vbox is a different case
<ali1234> hmm
<ali1234> okay, master actually does work
<ali1234> daily ppa doesn't though
<brainwash> success!
<Unit193> ...Wow, I see the failure.
<Unit193> bluesabre: xfpm and stuff fail to build, xdt-autogen tries to copy stuff into m4/ before creating the directory...
<brainwash> ohh.. now I need to have xfpm running to change locker settings
<brainwash> net/split
#xubuntu-devel 2015-01-16
<brainwash> bluesabre: any plans for lls and trusty? could a new version or single patches be backported?
<bluesabre> brainwash: does trusty need a new LLS?
<Unit193> bluesabre: See anything upstream that might have broken that?
<bluesabre> Unit193: broken what? (on phone)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Ah, not really important, but: xfpm and stuff fail to build, xdt-autogen tries to copy stuff into m4/ before creating the directory...
<bluesabre> Oh right. Haven't had a chance to look yet.
<bluesabre> Should be able to resolve easily though
<Unit193> Yes, but what caused it and shouldn't that be fixed?  In the latest xfce4-screenshooter I just did a mkdir m4 :P
<Unit193> Anywho, figured I'd share. :P
<pleia2> bzr: ERROR: Connection error: while sending POST /bazaar/: [Errno 110] Connection timed out
<pleia2> nice
<pleia2> from a canonical server to the code on lp
<Unit193> Hah, even better than normal.
<pleia2> works ok at home o_o
<pleia2> knome: it's a bit hokey becuase the server doesn't want to talk to bazaar.launchpad.net, but static and docs are updated
<ochosi> morning everyone
<ochosi> hey slickyma1ter 
<ochosi> or slickymasterWork 
<slickymasterWork> hey ochosi 
<slickymasterWork> ochosi -> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/01/15/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t15:23
<ochosi> oh good
<ochosi> thanks for that, i overlooked it
<slickymasterWork> np
<elfy> morning 
<elfy> ochosi: thanks for mailing laney - I scrubbed us off the wiki - no idea why amijawad thought he could add us :|
<ochosi> ah thanks, hadn't noticed that :)
 * Unit193 scratches head.
<ochosi> Unit193: right, so i guess we're stuck with pushing new versions of xdg-utils to ubuntu then
<ochosi> brainwash: i suggest you file a merge-request against xdg-utils in ubuntu to get your blanking patch in (or i can do it on top of my other MR for it if you don't wanna)
<jarnos> Could someone fix that Ctrl-Esc would launch applications menu in 14.04?
<jarnos> Currently it tries to launch xfce4-popup-menu that does not exist and I can not override the setting.
<jarnos> Actually, I am using mythbuntu, but isn't it the same?
<elfy> no it's not - if mythbuntu don't install something, try #ubuntu-mythtv
<brainwash> bluesabre: trusty does not need a new lls, but it's always nice to push a bug fix release -> long term support. maybe it's not worth the effort though
<brainwash> ochosi: but my patch is not that important (unless we want to backport it to 14.04/14.10)
<brainwash> ochosi: you patch xdg-screensaver to make it compatible with ll, and the new ll already inhibits screen blanking
<brainwash> in 15.04
<bluesabre> brainwash: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~light-locker-settings-team/light-locker-settings/trunk/view/head:/NEWS
<bluesabre> not many bugfixes happening other than supporting libraries post trusty
<brainwash> localizations not being used and some startup crash fix
<brainwash> so yeah, probably not worth the effort
<brainwash> bluesabre: any thoughts on the compton shadow workaround/fix?
<brainwash> basically adding a new shadow rule to the xubu default settings compton config
<bluesabre> shouldn't hurt to add it to trunk
<brainwash> which disables shadows for windows with CSD
<brainwash> because these windows draw their own shadows now
<jarnos> I don't like that you reserve keyboard shortcuts Super+number. I have used to use these for setting certain video modes, some for multi display configuration.
<jarnos> They are very handy, if you loose access to display for some reason.
<brainwash> bluesabre: want to add it or should i create a branch? it basically just "shadow-exclude = [ "_GTK_FRAME_EXTENTS@:c" ]"
<brainwash> bluesabre: https://github.com/chjj/compton/issues/189
<brainwash> I've tested it and it works fine so far
<bluesabre> create a branch and I'll merge for you
<brainwash> ok
<ochosi> brainwash: not sure i get what you're saying. either way, your patch is ready, the ll patch isn't is the point. and until we have ll support in xdg-screensaver, yours will work just fine
<brainwash> jarnos: that's our default keyboard shortcuts configuration, you can easily reassign keybinds
<brainwash> ochosi: I mean that with your planned changes to xdg-screensaver and the new ll in 15.04, my patch won't be crucial anymore to fix reported bug on launchpad
<brainwash> the reported
<ochosi> i know
<ochosi> getting it merged in is the first step in getting it SRUd to trusty (if we decide to go through with that)
<brainwash> sadly, it's not sru worthy
<jarnos> brainwash, oh, for some reason I can not do that for Ctrl-Escape in Mythbuntu, where it is bind for nonexisting xfce4-popup-menu.
<jarnos> brainwash, I mean the keybinding I set will be added to the list, but the original one is kept and used anyway..
<brainwash> jarnos: try to clear the existing keybind more than once
<brainwash> and the reassign your new one
<brainwash> then
<jarnos> brainwash, no matter how many times I remove it, it stays in the list.
<jarnos> brainwash, maybe because it is default binding.
<brainwash> jarnos: look at bug 1410760
<ubottu> bug 1410760 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Can't assign Ctrl+Fn as global hotkey" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1410760
<brainwash> please read the comments
<ochosi> brainwash: who told you it's not sru worthy?
<ochosi> also, we can always throw the patched version in a PPA
<ochosi> since it'll work with older versions of light-locker too
<brainwash> ochosi: according to launchpad it's just a small bug and there is no major uproar which usually forces the devs to do something
<brainwash> PPA sounds ok
<brainwash> Unit193 will gladly do the packaging, right? :)
<jarnos> brainwash, I don't see how it is relevant.
<brainwash> jarnos: you have problems with a Ctrl keybind
<brainwash> jarnos: I suggest that you look at your xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts-xml
<brainwash> also, if this is a mythbuntu specific issue, then you should contact the mythbuntu devs and/or file a bug against mythbuntu
<elfy> brainwash: the ctrl+esc is myth specific - it calls something that's not installled 
<elfy> I checked ;)
<brainwash> still, the user should be able to reassign the keybind without problems
<jarnos> brainwash, I have three of them.
<brainwash> jarnos: three of what?
<elfy> but the default of reserving ctrl+f1 - f9 is in us too - seems rather overkill for workspaces especially when we don't do anymore than give people 1 workspace now
<bluesabre> Settings Manager -> Keyboard, find what is using Ctrl+Esc, click Edit, change the application being called
<jarnos> brainwash, xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts-xml
<elfy> bluesabre: yea - that's not anything for us to worry about 
<elfy> and it's f1- f12 reserved for workspaces 
<bluesabre> I kmow, just trying to help reduce the amount of walking around the actual steps here :)
<elfy> :)
<bluesabre> other place is Settings Manager > Window Manager > Keyboard
<knome> pleia2, ough. well, at least it's easier for me to tell you what i want changed :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: is the bluetooth icon issue fixed for you?
<bluesabre> ochosi: haven't tried yet
<bluesabre> fix was in e-xfce or something else?
<brainwash> jarnos: there should be only one in your .config directory
<bluesabre> brainwash: why edit the xml instead of using settings manager?
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, should work for both e-xfce and e-xfce-dark*
<brainwash>  don't want to edit it, we want to check if the file is broken
<bluesabre> ok
<brainwash> broken = contains invalid entries :)
<bluesabre> check permissions if it is stuck... sometimes people run things with sudo and give up ownership of their own files
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'd say if it works, we could do an update of xubuntu-artwork with pulling in the icons from git and get that to the archive. i think the icons should be more or less gtk3.14-ready now
<bluesabre> sudo menulibre = x.x
<bluesabre> oh yeah
<bluesabre> you marked numix and greybird done.... ready to package for release with git tags and all?
<ochosi> knome: do you think you can get that dev-wallpaper ready soonish? i'd like to update xubuntu-artwork soonish with the icons, so that could go in too
<ochosi> bluesabre: i need to mark greybird 1.5.1 actually since more fixes came along after 1.5
<ochosi> but in git it's all done
<ochosi> wanted to give it a few days to see whether more theming issues show up
<ochosi> and to see what you think of the catfish-sidebar and popovers now
<bluesabre> k, tag me some releases and let me know when to package ;)
<bluesabre> also, new tag for ali1234
<bluesabre> 's orion?
<ochosi> well that depends, it isn't actually finished
<bluesabre> k
<ochosi> he said there were some padding issues
<ochosi> so no MR yet
<bluesabre> that can come in later then
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> priority is greybird+numix for now
<bluesabre> agreed
<ochosi> one more thing that'll have to be fixed in the theme/s is the spinner
<ochosi> not sure why that's not working
<ochosi> larsu said he had it on his todo-list, so i'm waiting for him to figure it out
<ochosi> (not even sure whether it's strictly a theme issue or some problem with gtk3 itself)
<bluesabre> ubuntu-gtk issue?
<ochosi> i'd rather wait than invest time in such an issue
<bluesabre> i'd poke satya to test with fedora/ozon
<bluesabre> also, does it work with adwaita?
<ochosi> larsu claimed it does, but i couldn't confirm that tbh
<ochosi> with adwaita there's just no spinner at al
<ochosi> l
<ochosi> you can test it easily with the printer-dialog or catfish
<bluesabre> k, I'll have a look tonight
<bluesabre> need to get ready for work now, bbl
<ochosi> sure thing, ttyl
<bluesabre> I'll be around tomorrow morning btw, don't know the rest of my schedule
<ochosi> morning would be like now?
<ochosi> or later cause it's a saturday?
<knome> ochosi, i guess so :)
<bluesabre> probably like now
<jarnos> brainwash, it has only type="empty" lines for property name="&lt;Control&gt;Escape"
<brainwash> jarnos: which ubuntu release? the notation has been changed (Control -> Primary) in 14.04
<jarnos> brainwash, 14.04
<brainwash> so, the linked launchpad report is relevant
<brainwash> I assume that mythbuntu installs a custom keyboard shortcuts xml in /etc/xdg/..
<brainwash> and it has not been updated yet
<brainwash> jarnos: got any more question? if yes please query me instead of using this channel
<slickymasterWork> ok knome, we can then put a stone on the docs conversion, at least for the moment
<knome> ? :)
 * slickymasterWork wonders to what does knome question refers 
 * ochosi wonders what slickymasterWork's reference to "stones" refers to
<ochosi> ;)
<ochosi> aren't stones usually rolling?
<knome> slickymasterWork, i was wondering what you were referring to? :P
<slickymasterWork> your cahnges to the whiteboard of the docs blueprintÂ´
<slickymasterWork> * changes
<knome> re: PDF export?
<slickymasterWork> yes
<slickymasterWork> ochosi, is a portuguese expression, when you put a stone on a subject you intend to mean that it's a dead subject
<knome> yeah, i think it's not really worth it
 * slickymasterWork won't question knome's assessment on the subject  
<ochosi> yeah, i think we don't really need it
<knome> if it was only a trivial change/task to get it right, then maybe
<knome> but since it means dragging in relatively large build deps and then the output is less than sub-ideal...
<elfy> we're a great community :) dholbach says so 
<knome> :)
<knome> good to hear that from somebody outside
<elfy> https://daniel.holba.ch/blog/2015/01/building-a-great-community/
<knome> ooh
<slickymasterWork> you could also have mentioned the lack of translators elfy 
<knome> we should tweet
<knome> tweeted; pleia2, if you want to social mediaze it more: https://twitter.com/Xubuntu/status/556102390202761217
<elfy> slickymasterWork: I tend to forget those 
<elfy> sorry - I did you see you join the channel - you could have ;)
<silviu> anybody help me to creat a ppa?
<silviu> :((
<silviu> my linux its xubuntu
<slickymasterWork> yeah, I joined but something come up here and I was unable to participate
<knome> slickymasterWork, see https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA for information
<elfy> slickymasterWork: such is life 
<knome> silviu, see https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA for information
<slickymasterWork> lol knome 
<knome> silviu, or you can ask #launchpad
<elfy> slickymasterWork: that said, it's entirely likely that any translation comment would have got a "yea - others say the same thing" 
<knome> i think we've got more interest with the calls
<knome> at least one finnish guy asked about helping out
<elfy> good 
<elfy> at least that's positive - no idea what to do about testing 
<knome> mh
<slickymasterWork> most probably elfy 
<knome> elfy, if only we would know *why* people don't test :/
<silviu> thenks
<elfy> rather - why they don't report - because I would have to  hope are testing 
<slickymasterWork> I think people 'do test' knome, thing is why don't they report it
<knome> maybe
<knome> but as you implied, their testing could be put in parenthesis...
<slickymasterWork> put in parenthesis ?!
<slickymasterWork> what do you mean knome ?
<knome> what i'm referring to is that many people "test" xubutnu
<knome> *xubuntu
<knome> maybe it can be called exploratory testing
<elfy> I'll ask - see if people respond
<knome> elfy, ++
<elfy> late posting that - should read I've asked :p
<knome> haha
<knome> :)
<slickymasterWork> :)
<knome> yeah...
<elfy> if it really is something like PaulW2U said -= then I'll say what we said in here 
<elfy> rather you reported bug against xubuntu-foo than not at all 
<knome> yep
<slickymasterWork> what did he say?
<knome> elfy, maybe we can try to improve http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/
<elfy> hard to know what to report issues against - which I can understand
<elfy> knome: possibly - lets see what sort of responses we get 
<slickymasterWork> yes, I can see that elfy, but that doesn't explaing why aren't people reporting test in the tracker
<elfy> knome: I for one go all cross-eyed when I look at that triage page
<ali1234> you already know my feelings about the qa trackers
<knome> if you do exploratory testing, then you basically can't; because you aren't following the testcases
<elfy> slickymasterWork: because if you tested and there's a bug and you don't know what to report it against - you can hardly mark it passed 
<ali1234> exactly
<knome> elfy, triage page on the website or the wiki one? :)
<elfy> knome: the wiki 
<knome> yeah...
<knome> "In a hospital, triage happens the instant a patient arrives through the emergency room doors. His vital signs are checked, his status assessed, and he gets sorted in amongst all the other patients waiting for treatment."
<knome> that's a good way to start..
<elfy> that's just like "We'd love you to help - but we're going to make it as hard as we possibly can for to you make any sense of the next 5000 words"
<elfy> ^^ the wiki
<ali1234> the other day i "tested" the iso and found two bugs
<ali1234> i reported them both on launchpad
<slickymasterWork> well there's always the possibility of marking a test, whether is a failed one, or not, and then just write some sort of a brief explanation in the commentary section
<knome> it might sound duplicating, but what if we set up our own contributor documentation (as discussed before)
<knome> we could explain things in an easy to understand way there
<knome> and once we get things done, copy that back over to the wiki
<ali1234> bug 1408495 and bug 1409015
<ubottu> bug 1408495 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Vivid) "Ubiquity crashes prior to keyboard configuration in 15.04" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1408495
<ubottu> bug 1409015 in Ubuntu Start Page "about:startpage is in wrong language" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1409015
<ali1234> what i don't understand, is what am i supposed to do with the qa tracker?
<knome> ali1234, we've gone through this discussion before...
<ali1234> yeah, i never got a good answer
<knome> ali1234, you don't have to understand it, testing and reporting bugs is enough
<knome> ali1234, or you never wanted to accept the answer
<ali1234> no answer was given
<knome> but please let's not waste time again listening how you think the trackers suck
<elfy> slickymasterWork: you can't fail and not give a bug
<ali1234> just hand waving
<knome> ali1234, reporting bugs in the trackers is the only way to measure how many people ran the pre-determined tests
<ali1234> i don't know how to report bugs in the trackers
<elfy> for better or worse - the trackers is the only thing we have to gauge that 
<ali1234> expecially the ISO tracker
<knome> ali1234, it also helps us know which bugs were experienced with which flavors/dailies
<elfy> ali1234: you don't report bugs IN the tracker - you report bugs ON the tracker - you have to have the number first 
<knome> ali1234, you are supposed to file the bugs just like you do now, and then list their numbers on the tracker
<ali1234> knome: you're justifying the existence of the tracker, you're not saying what it is you want me to do with it
<slickymasterWork> I know elfy, I was referring to situations where you go all the way through the test, you face a bug and don't no against package to file it, but the test itself isn't a fail
<knome> ali1234, i want you to report that you tested a certain ISO with a certain testcase to 1) know you did that 2) know which bugs are present with specific dailies
<ali1234> i didn't follow any part of the test case
<knome> ali1234, then you shouldn't report a test in the tracker
<slickymasterWork> in those cases, one could just write a brief description of what happened in the commentary section elfy 
<elfy> ali1234: but the install testcases cover what you did I would suspect 
<elfy> slickymasterWork: yes - but you still then have to pass it 
<ali1234> well then, the reason i don't report tests in the tracker is because i shouldn't report tests in the tracker.
<knome> ali1234, no, you should, but only if you follow the testcase instructions.
<knome> ali1234, which is, like elfy said, pretty much what you did anyway
<ali1234> except i didn't
<knome> ali1234, but to make sure, you should know what the testcase says
<ali1234> i didn't even read them
<elfy> ali1234: so what did you actually do with the iso when you 'tested' it ?
<knome> ali1234, then read them,.
<ali1234> elfy: i installed it
<ali1234> elfy: actually i should say i attempted to install it
<ali1234> it didn't work
<elfy> ok - something else, clean, auto-resize - os some other variable that we don't bother to report 
<ali1234> all of the above
<knome> ali1234, next time you are running "tests", please read the testcases to confirm you are going through all the steps mentioned in them
<elfy> then you don't actually need to read them - the testcases are just a list of the things that you have to do to install 
<knome> ali1234, and then report a tracker report with any bugs you found
<elfy> if you're doing an install - you really don't need to read it - you can't install the wrong way 
<ali1234> there's three different test cases for installing
<knome> ali1234, you just said you did all of what elfy mentioned
<knome> ali1234, eg. each of the test case once
<ali1234> so you want three reports?
<knome> yes.
<knome> if you installed three times.
<ali1234> i failed to install three times, yes
<knome> that counts.
<elfy> and if you failed to install - then they are critical bugs 
<knome> ^ and the test status is failed
<ali1234> so just to be clear this is the list of things i need to do when i find a bug:
<ali1234> 1. generate hardware profile for my computer
<elfy> ali1234: nope
<knome> ali1234, you can omit 1, but if you do it, you only have to do it once and then relink to the same URL
<ali1234> 2. format computer and attempt to install xubuntu
<elfy> I don't do that
<ali1234> 3. confirm bug still exists
<ali1234> 4. report on iso tracker
<ali1234> 5. repeat another 2x
<knome> yes, or you can only try installing one way
<knome> unless you want to use more time installing
<knome> just doing one test is *fine*
<knome> and 3) file a bug if one doesn't exist
<ali1234> as i said, i already filed a bug (it's on the way to being fixed actually)
<elfy> ali1234: all that you're really doing in effect is reporting the bug in one extra place - that is easy for all to see 
<knome> ali1234, yes, just to clarify
<ali1234> yeah i would be fine with just reporting that i found this one bug on the tracker
<elfy> that's really all we are asking
<ali1234> no, it isn't
<knome> how come?
<elfy> it's all I'm asking 
<ali1234> well i can't report it now because the iso i used to install from is like 4 days old
<knome> then zsync a newer ISO and retest
<knome> and next time, report on the same day
<ali1234> right, you're asking me to retest the installation every time i find a bug if it has been more than a day since the last one
<ali1234> reinstalling is a two hour process
<ali1234> reporting a bug takes 5 minutes
<knome> ali1234, that's the only way to measure accurately if the bug still exists
<knome> but really, we aren't asking you to retest every day
<knome> you reinstall/-test as often as you feel like
<ali1234> unless i find a bug every day
<ali1234> which isn;t unusual at all
<knome> in installation?
<knome> or in the installed system?
<ali1234> in the installed system
<knome> that's what the package tracker is for.
<ali1234> where is that?
<ali1234> and how do i use it?
<knome> packages.qa.ubuntu.com
<knome> the same way
<ali1234> if it's the same way then i do have to reinstall every day
<knome> no
<knome> the same way except the testcases are different
<knome> they describe a process to test the applicaiton
<knome> which is why you should READ what the test cases say
<ali1234> i'm just going to start filing reports with comment "did not read the testcase but this thing is broken so fail anyway"
<knome> please don't
<knome> then rather just don't file the testcase reports
<knome> filing the bugs for the applications is good enough
<ali1234> for example, the firefox testcase doesn't even test for the bug i found
<ali1234> so i should pass it on that basis?
<knome> of course, test cases can't cover everything
<knome> yes.
<knome> here's the thing
<elfy> no idea - the firefox test is not listed in the xubuntu packages 
<knome> i don't mind if bugs that aren't mentioned on the testcase are reported on the tracker, BUT
<knome> if you aren't reading the testcase, then you really shouldn't report in the tracker
<ali1234> the point is i'm not going to follow the testcase anyway
<knome> then don't report on the tracker
<knome> but please also don't come telling us how you don't understand the trackers
<knome> if you aren't going to use them as they are intended
<ali1234> okay, but please don't act like you can't understand why nobody is using the trackers
<ali1234> when you just told me not to use the tracker
<knome> ali1234, i told you not to because you said you aren't going to use them in the intended way anyway
<knome> ali1234, i'd love you to use them if you were to use them in the intended way
<knome> ali1234, i wouldn't want you to file bugs either if you were not going to file them the way they are supposed to, either
<knome> elfy, ochosi: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/tester-of-the.png
<ochosi> having my real name there and elfy's elf-name is just weird
<knome> heh
<ochosi> other than that, not bad ;)
<knome> i wondered about that, but also, first draft
<ochosi> it does look very formal
<ochosi> i guess that is intended
<knome> it's following the ubuntu certificate style
<ochosi> ah
<knome> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/06/14/certificates-for-ubuntu-members/
<ochosi> wasn't aware of that at all
<ochosi> "has contributed ... contributions"
<ochosi> who writes like that ^ ?
<knome> lawyers?
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/certificate-blank.png
<ochosi> 404
<ochosi> ah, now it works
<ochosi> weird
<knome> :)
<elfy> saw them - the look ok with only the one contribut(ed/ion) 
<knome> bbl
<brainwash> who will be our first TotW? :)
<drc> ???   TOTW: Taste of the Wild: TotW: Tales of the World (game) TOTW: Topic of the Week: TOTW: Top of the World: TOTW: Temple of Three Winds ???
<ochosi> tester of the week
<drc> ah...thanks.  Didn't think it referred to dog food (much).
<brainwash> heh :D
<brainwash> ah, so that's the reason why ali1234 is interested in iso testing
<drc> pleia2: http://www.everydaylinuxuser.com/2015/01/an-everyday-linux-user-review-of.html
<pleia2> drc: cool, thanks
<drc> You still want them here rather than -ot, right?
<pleia2> yep
<pleia2> it's on topic :)
<drc> Only if it's a good review :)
<pleia2> oh, I did some drafting of QA+stickers blog post: http://pad.ubuntu.com/QAIncentive
<pleia2> given the timetable, we can publish whenever and then re-promote each time the beginning of a milestone/month begins
<elfy> pleia2: which bit of it? 
<elfy> oh nvm - assume the bit right at the bottom :)
<pleia2> bottom of the pad, if that's what you're asking :)
<elfy> it was - then I woke up :p
<pleia2> I never know what to put in the testing instructions section
<elfy> ohhh - I see that 
<davmor2> pleia2: pretend you have a new user, walk them through 1 step at a time on how to use the thing you are testing.  Mkaing sure you are using it the correct way, that then sets the test step that should in theory always give the same results.  If you are not sure on how to use something then you might not be the person to write the test, but you can follow someone else to ensure you get the same result and confirm
<davmor2>  the steps as good
<davmor2> I hope that made sense
<elfy> it did to me - but not really what's needed for this 
<davmor2> elfy: I hope it would to you ;)
<elfy> lol
<elfy> pleia2: added some stuff 
<pleia2> ta
<elfy> and moved it to the beginning of the page
<pleia2> davmor2: I meant to include in a simple blog post about testing :) there are lots of docs (and a video or two) that walk folks through how to use the trackers, but I often don't know what to point people to
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/Tester 
<elfy> is a basic one pleia2 
<elfy> but at some point a Xubuntu specific thing will be useful
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> thanks
<elfy> certainly not going to look this cycle - but maybe next cycle I will 
<pleia2> suppose I should figure out if testdrive still works
<pleia2> since all the docs still talk about it
<elfy> ochosi: and we need to make a decision about who's going to get stickers 
<pleia2> I figure you give me a list and I run a random script against it
<elfy> wut? 
<pleia2> a list of names of all the testers for each timeframe
<elfy> oh 
<elfy> that's not at all what I envisaged 
<pleia2> oh, what did you have in mind?
<elfy> and something I'll have nothing to do with :|
<pleia2> top tester?
<elfy> yea 
<pleia2> ah
<elfy> that's what the discussion has hinged around for months and months :)
<pleia2> sorry, I misunderstood
<pleia2> I'll reword the blog post
<pleia2> probably "top tester who isn't part of -team and hasn't already received stickers"
<elfy> imagine in a period - we have 10 people, 9 do 1 test, the 10th does 20 :)
<elfy> well - that's what we need to make a final decision on 
<pleia2> well, I figure we recognise them specifically with a pack at the end of the cycle if that happens :)
<pleia2> but I doubt it would
<elfy> left out specifying -devel deliberately - I call on users towards the cycle end as well 
<pleia2> hm, so which list should we link to?
<pleia2> they need to know how to get on the list :)
<elfy> mmm
<brainwash> ali1234: bug 1307657 is now fixed in trusty, hooray
<ubottu> bug 1307657 in unity-gtk-module (Ubuntu Utopic) "[SRU] UBUNTU_MENUPROXY should not be set in Xfce" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307657
<pleia2> :)
<elfy> pleia2: got both in :)
<pleia2> wfm
<elfy> Maybe we could add that we'll be looking at t-shirts too during this LTS cycle, books too - no reason why we can't apply to the fund for that stuff 
<pleia2> good idea
<elfy> pleia2: knome was playing with  certs too - did you see those ^^ 
<pleia2> nope
<elfy> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/tester-of-the.png and http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/certificate-blank.png
<pleia2> cool
<pleia2> I should get a color printer :)
 * pleia2 practices forging ochosi and elfy's sigs
<elfy> mine's really easy 
<pleia2> X
<elfy> X ... 
<pleia2> haha
<elfy> ha ha ha
<drc> Is that printing or cursive?
<Unit193> Just like in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
<elfy> drc: cursive is hard with a blunt 6" nail
<drc> Then use a Nine Inch Nail.
<elfy> too loud for me
<ochosi> pleia2: mine is just my name in Comic Sans 14
<Unit193> :D
<Unit193> ochosi: Set your terminal to comic sans, see how long you last (and see how seriously you take everyone too. :P )
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> yeah, good idea for people starting flamewars
<ochosi> calm them down with Comic Sans ;)
<elfy> ha ha 
<knome> pleia2, was thinking we can just send those out as PDF's with fake sigs :)
<knome> or copies of real, if signign people want that
<elfy> I guess it would be *nicer* if one of the two signing actually sent them if we did pdf's
<knome> yeaah, but is that really logistically possible (or sane)?
<knome> that same person should be the one sending the stickers then as well to save in shipping
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> you were talking about pdf's :)
<elfy> I've never received a pdf through the post ... 
<knome> heh, right
<knome> yeah
<knome> sorry, am a bit unfocused
<elfy> that's ok :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: will you take a look at the xfpm bug which I've already linked several times? I want to create a branch which inverts the logind-handle-lid-switch value, but as of now I don't know if it's needed or not
<brainwash> mmh, if I create it and request it to be merged, then you will have to check the report to understand the reasoning behind it :>
#xubuntu-devel 2015-01-17
<bluesabre> brainwash: so are you certain the value should be flipped?  or does that fix it for one person?  I can switch it and see if the reports get worse, the logs don't get me anywhere
<bluesabre> the bug does not affect me with either value, so if that is a good fix for people, just let me know
<ochosi> hmm, i noticed a variant of the black screen bug today btw
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<ochosi> it has surely been described out there, but it's different from what i have seen myself before
<ochosi> and it confirms my long-time suspicion that there are several, distinct black screen bugs
<ochosi> so...
<ochosi> bug 1: with nouveau drivers and locking, i don't get to the greeter, immediate black screen and lockdown, no way to get anywhere other than hard-reboot
<ubottu> bug 1 in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<Unit193> Good one.
<ochosi> bug 2: with nvidia drivers bug 1 doesn't happen, but if i use DPMS standby and then close the lid, the display will still be in DPMS standby after waking up. the only way to resolve that is by running something like "xrandr --auto" which wakes up the display
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 2 could not be found
<ubottu> bug 1 in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<bluesabre> I think that bug 1 is actually the greeter crashing based on some reports I've seen
<ochosi> same hardware and setup obviously
<ochosi> apart from the graphics driver
<bluesabre> the second one there has been described by others
<ochosi> yeah, i think both have been described
<ochosi> frankly, i'm not sure what to do about either
<ochosi> i mean i know how to work around both issues and i think many users have figured that out too
<brainwash> bluesabre: flipping the value seems logical and appears to work fine, but doing it breaks xfpm -> ignores lid close action
<ochosi> but in order to really fix it, we'd have to understand why e.g. the display can go into a sort of DPMS lockdown mode from which it just doesn't want to wake up by wiggling the mouse
<brainwash> bluesabre: according to b3nmore
<bluesabre> right... thats exactly what is being disabled
<brainwash> so, whatever the value is, something will be broken
<bluesabre> so, we're at the same conclusion more or less that we had when we discovered the issue...?
<brainwash> was it to change the value?
<bluesabre> that things still aren't understood and fixing one thing breaks the other?
<bluesabre> I'll flip it tonight in -default-settings and we'll go from there
<ochosi> wait a sec
<brainwash> I think we just need someone to test this
<brainwash> a handful of people
<ochosi> no, obviously one person won't cut it
<ochosi> even a handful might not
<bluesabre> it works for many, we've had a lot of confirmed reports with the current settings
<brainwash> in xfpm 1.4. logind-handle-lid-switch=true means "logind, please handle the lid switch", right?
<brainwash> and it would be the fix for the black screen bug (bug two)
<brainwash> so, this fix is currently not applied to 14.10 and 15.04
<ochosi> yeah, but that ^ should only be applied (and in the bg, by xfpm) if "lock-on-suspend" *and* "suspend on lid close" are true
<ochosi> what is odd is that it doesn't seem to happen, at least when i try with xfpmsettings while monitoring the xfconf channel
<brainwash> b3nmore mentioned that disabling light-locker also disabled suspend on lid close (with logind-handle-lid-switch=true)
<ochosi> what version of ll and xfpm did he use for that?
<brainwash> the versions available in 14.10
<brainwash> !info light-locker utopic
<ubottu> light-locker (source: light-locker): simple session-locker for lightdm. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.4.0-0ubuntu1 (utopic), package size 45 kB, installed size 938 kB
<brainwash> !info xfce4-power-manager utopic
<ubottu> xfce4-power-manager (source: xfce4-power-manager): power manager for Xfce desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.4.1-0ubuntu1 (utopic), package size 80 kB, installed size 395 kB
<brainwash> we could keep him busy and ask him to test 15.04
<brainwash> in any case, I'll look at the xfpm code, maybe I can spot something odd
<bluesabre> if you find anything, feel free to tweak things and provide patches if possible... I'm not going to spend much more time on this issue without a lead when there are higher-priority items
<brainwash> bluesabre: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~light-locker-settings-team/light-locker-settings/trunk/revision/112
<brainwash> line 154 confirms that the default value should be true in utopic, because lock-on-suspend is enabled by default
<bluesabre> ok, that seems reasonable... so using light-locker-settings fixes the issue for folks?
<brainwash> if you use light-locker-settings to change some settings, then it might update the logind-handle-lid-switch to true (because lock-on-suspend is checked)
<brainwash> but what happens if you tell xfpm to do nothing on lid close while logind-handle-lid-switch is set to true?
<bluesabre> dunno, currently evaluating that since we now have light-locker settings in xfpm
<brainwash> -> xfpm lets logind do the job which is to suspend the system
<brainwash> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/tree/src/xfpm-manager.c#n338
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> thats correct
<brainwash> meh
<brainwash> :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: any idea how to keep lls and xfpm in sync?
<bluesabre> use lls, it does that by itself
<brainwash> yes, but my example shows the bug
<brainwash> so you will have to rerun lls after changing the lid close action in xfpm
<bluesabre> when you toggle the setting in light-locker-settings, it changes the relevant xfpm setting as well
<brainwash> I know, but what if you don't open lls after changing something in xfpm?
<brainwash> xfpm does not alter the value of logind-handle-lid-switch dynamically
<brainwash> the user needs to rerun lls to update the value
<brainwash> or am I wrong?
<bluesabre> that's why we're integrating light-locker settings into xfpm, because that is an issue
<bluesabre> there's no sane way to keep them synced otherwise
<brainwash> exactly
<bluesabre> unless there was a light-locker-settings daemon running at all times
<brainwash> now we know what is broken.. but it cannot be fixed easily for 14.04/14.10
<Unit193> Not something that can be upstreamed?
<bluesabre> it can-ish
<brainwash> upstreamed?
<brainwash> isn't this a xubuntu/light-locker thingy?
<bluesabre> we're still limited because light-locker doesn't have a way to kill itself
<bluesabre> process killing in bsd is no-go, so we're not there just yet
<bluesabre> but the plan is to bring it to xfce soon
<brainwash> ah, that's nice
<bluesabre> light-locker is developed by xfce devs, so its kind of an xfce goodie
<brainwash> yeah
<bluesabre> or baddie as it mostly seems
<bluesabre> :\
<bluesabre> also, hi Unit193
<Unit193> Hello, bluesabre.
<bluesabre> any good ideas for fixing xfpm building? I'm stumped
<Unit193> Yes, I pinged you about that even. :P  Seems something is broken somewhere as whatever is copying the files into m4/ doesn't create the directory first.  As a "hack", in the latest xfce4-screenshooter I called 'mkdir -p m4/' first.
<bluesabre> yeah, saw that
<bluesabre> I'll take a hack :)
<Unit193> OK, adding.
<bluesabre> thanks
<brainwash> bluesabre: now we have all the details, so what can we do about this xfpm launchpad report? advise the user to use lls and forget about the issue -> "won't fix"?
<bluesabre> post our findings, and we'll go from there.  We'll probably be able to add xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) as an affected project soon
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you edit the recipe?
<brainwash> bluesabre: alright, I will do that
<bluesabre> Unit193: I copied it to my own and poked it
<bluesabre> or if you mean, its still pointing to your branch
<Unit193> bluesabre: Well, meaning I moved xfpm-pkging to ~xubuntu-dev/+junk/ like I promised I would.
<bluesabre> yeah, never updated the recipe
<bluesabre> lazy bluesabre
<bluesabre> or busy, not sure anymore :D
<brainwash> ochosi: bug 1411959
<ubottu> bug 1411959 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "Hide autostart launcher in Xfce" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1411959
<brainwash> looks ok, or?
<brainwash> currently the autostart launcher for indicator-application is enabled in Xfce. I think this may cause the following problem: remove the indicator applet from the panel and restart. now the autostart launcher will try to launch the indicator-application-service, and therefore nm-applet may try to load its indicator icon. however, there is no indicator area (we removed the plugin from the panel) and
<brainwash> nm-applet most likely then fails to fall back to the normal tray icon.
<brainwash> result: no network icon in the panel at all
<brainwash> ochosi: also, I'll try to SRU https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/ubuntu/trusty/xubuntu-default-settings/lp1292290
<brainwash> it fixes the keyboard shortcut messup partially
<bluesabre> brainwash: nice find for the autostart one
<brainwash> bluesabre: please test and comment :)
<brainwash> not about the nm-applet problem, but that hiding the launchers does not break the indicator plugin -> indicators are still loaded fine
<ochosi> bluesabre: anything concrete to do about "Provide patches as needed to support latest uploaded Gtk version"? seems to me that there is nothing much for us to do there
<bluesabre> there are probably things that need patches here and there, but I think that item is probably done once I upload the next shimmer-themes
<ochosi> yeah, i mean the patches mostly seem to be in the theme
<ochosi> or did you change any app code in menulibre/catfish/mugshot for 3.14?
<ochosi> brainwash: can't remember what you said about that, but are you going to propose the xdg-utils branch with your patch?
<ochosi> bluesabre: anyway, feel free to mark that workitem as inprogress or done that
<bluesabre> will do
<ochosi> also, "Review shared components (GNOME-based or otherwise)"?
<ochosi> isn't that sort of done too?
<ochosi> and it seems to be more or less the same as the previous workitem
<ochosi> "Investigate reducing dependency on GNOME components"
<bluesabre> yeah, I don't think we're going to do any more for those this cycle
<bluesabre> I'll mark them off
<ochosi> cool, thanks
<ochosi> just wanna keep a bit better overview over what we should focus on
<brainwash> ochosi: there are 3 things to do: drop obsolete upstream patch from debian/patches, apply the xset timeout patch, apply your ll integration patch
<brainwash> could be 1 big commit :)
<ochosi> brainwash: 1) is already approved, but not merged/released yet, 2) is up for you
<ochosi> and 3) is for later
<brainwash> I see
<elfy> afternoon both
<brainwash> ochosi: I actually wanted to wait a bit more until the patch is accepted upstream, maybe something could be improved
<ochosi> brainwash: 3) needs changes in light-locker to use the kde dbus spec, otherwise it won't work or the xdg-screensaver patch will just be too big
<ochosi> yeah, but we don't wanna wait for upstream cause that could take ages
<brainwash> heh
<ochosi> the script is crappy already, your patch won't make that much worse
<ochosi> and it's working, so from my pov it's approved
<ochosi> i can probably get it merged and uploaded in ubuntu, so just propose the branch already
<brainwash> I'll try to do it
<ochosi> k, ty
<ochosi> ping me when it's done
<ochosi> or just subscribe me as one of the reviewers
<bluesabre> it would be fun to think that warty comes back after vivid... http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/
<ochosi> muhahahar
<ochosi> yeah, that'd be awesome
<ochosi> also, why in the world did they skip "a"?
<knome> anybody using askubuntu and has 50+ reputation?
<knome> the "best" answer at http://askubuntu.com/questions/62564/how-do-i-disable-the-guest-session?newreg=22b63e6eb35b4fbc984914ac3742d844 would be better if there was a comment that said that you need different values for xubuntu...
<knome> ironically, the answer that is not the best would work with xubuntu too..
<ali1234> i do. what do you want me to do?
<knome> reply the answer that is voted the best telling that you need a different greeter and user session for xubuntu (and other flavors)
<knome> you can also mention that the method provided below (creating a file with only the allow-guest option) works for all flavors without extra steps
<ali1234> someone already wrote this in the commends
<ali1234> and writing stuff like "the answer below" tends to go wrong if the answers move around
<elfy> ali1234: do you have enough rep to edit answers ? 
<ali1234> yes
<ali1234> copy pasting the second highest answer over the highest answer seem bit rude though :P
<elfy> then do that rather than muck about with comments 
<ali1234> yeah that's what i'm thinking... trying to figure out how to do it properly
<elfy> not what I meant - just edit the 'best' with a comment 
<elfy> maybe 'Don't do this for all flavours - only for Ubuntu, see foo for other flavours' 
<elfy> something like that 
<ali1234> yeah that sounds good
<ali1234> i'll have to go and look up how to do formatting though :)
<elfy> an ftr if something like this comes up again - have sufficient rep too 
<elfy> ali1234: :)
<ali1234> i don't actually have enough rep to edit without the edit being approved
<elfy> oh
<elfy> I do 
<elfy> have you edited it? 
<elfy> if not do it - then I'll approve that :)
<ali1234> oh wait sorry actually i do :)
<elfy> not got a thinking head on currently - or rather have but I'm thinking about food ... 
<elfy> ali1234: ok :D
<knome> lol
<knome> thanks ali1234 and elfy 
<ali1234> this is a mess
<ali1234> okay done
<knome> :)
<knome> look good, thanks again
<ali1234> i'm not entirely happy with it,  mean the deciding factor is what greeter you use
<ali1234> but fixing it would be a full rewrite of the whole page
<knome> how so?
<ali1234> well i could switch my greeter to unity-greeter right now if i wanted
<ali1234> i'd still be using xubuntu
<knome> with the answer you are pointing to, it doesn't matter
<ali1234> and the first answer would work for me :)
<ali1234> true, true
<knome> that's why it should be the best answe
<knome> i'm also wondering if 14.04+ should be first
<knome> and the older ones last
<knome> inside that answer
<knome> but that's minutiae
<ali1234> there's probably a style guide somewhere for all of this
<knome> style guide for askubuntu? good luck...
<ali1234> stack exchange sites always produce large amounts of bureaucracy like that
<ali1234> i stopped really following it a couple of years ago
<ali1234> about the same time i stopped using unity actually
<ali1234> cos that's all anyone ever asks about there
<ali1234> hah, i got a badge for that edit
<knome> congrats
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> I have 316 rep, not sure how much one can actually do with that
<bluesabre> ah, requires 2000 to edit
<bluesabre> better get to work then
<knome> haha
<brainwash> ochosi: should I update the debian changelog for my MR?
<brainwash> not even sure, if I should have applied the patch or just add it to the series file
<bluesabre> brainwash: add the patch in debian/patches, add it to debian/patches/series, and add it to the debian changelog, but don't apply it --- that is the usual way to go
<bluesabre> that way the diff is just the patch
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<ali1234> brainwash: you're generally supposed to use quilt when there is a series file
<ali1234> https://wiki.debian.org/UsingQuilt
<brainwash> ali1234: I did, but should I apply the patch or just add it?
<brainwash> I guess it should be applied, otherwise the source code will not change
<brainwash> https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/ubuntu/vivid/xdg-utils/lp1363540
<ali1234> you shouldn't do either
<ali1234> quilt does it all for you
<brainwash> I mean should I quilt push my patch before uploading my branch?
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> you should quilt pop -a
<brainwash> this will revert all patches
<ali1234> yes, that's the whole point
<brainwash> but the package branch has all current patches applied
<ali1234> there is a reason why the patches are stored in the debian folder
<ali1234> packaging is a mess
<ali1234> you've commited the .pc folder by the looks of it too
<brainwash> especially if you have to mess around with a some ubuntu package with has like 10 debian patches....
<ali1234> packaging is really easy if everyone who touches the package knows exactly what they are doin
<ali1234> unfortunately nobody knows what they are doing
<brainwash> well, the guy who will do the merge can clean it up :)
<ali1234> that's what i generally assume as well
<ali1234> looks to me like this package is in a really poor state anyway
<brainwash> it is
<ali1234> the .pc seems to have been checked in ages ago
<ali1234> you're not supposed to keep that directory
<ali1234> it holds the current status of quilt ie what patches are applied
<brainwash> I know
<ali1234> you're *supposed* to unapply all patches and keep them as individual files in debian/patches
<brainwash> that's why I am confused
<ali1234> don't be confused, just assume that nobody has any idea what they are doing
<brainwash> yeah.. pulseaudio 4.0-0ubuntu22
<brainwash> 22
<brainwash> and vivid seems to be stuck with version 4
<ali1234> ??
<ali1234> !info pulseaudio vivid
<ubottu> pulseaudio (source: pulseaudio): PulseAudio sound server. In component main, is optional. Version 1:4.0-0ubuntu22 (vivid), package size 699 kB, installed size 3712 kB
<brainwash> I mean, some packages are bloated with patches and then get stuck with this version
<ali1234> well if there is no upstream release, what do you want?
<brainwash> debian has pulseaudio 5
<ali1234> there's probably a reason for this
<ali1234> like it breaks the unity phones
<brainwash> ubuntu phone
<brainwash> yeah
<brainwash> luckily they did not break indicators again
<ali1234> for one thing you can't use a bluetooth headset with it
<ali1234> that's kind of a showstopper for a phone
<elfy> sound indicator isn't working here 
<brainwash> here?
<brainwash> working fine here
<elfy> nor if I boot with a usb 
<brainwash> I only heard some complains about the dropbox icon which seems to be missing
<ali1234> that is a dropbox bug
<brainwash> not even sure, if dropbox uses the indicator interface
<ali1234> it doesn't
<ali1234> it's like skype
<elfy> ochosi seemed to think it was broken somewhere
<ali1234> it uses appindicator or notify
<ali1234> indicator-sound works for me, i installed yesterday
<brainwash> elfy: then we need to know if we can somehow reproduce the bug
<elfy> possibly stopped working when I installed new sound card
<brainwash> that's not a common task :D
<elfy> common enough 
<elfy> however at the same time - clean install - so not anything floating about in home 
<brainwash> all you can do is to file a report, any maybe contact someone in #ubuntu-desktop
<elfy> not that concerned tbh - don't use it anyway 
<elfy> certainly not wasting my time in that channel again
<elfy> contrary to the 'we shouldn't break things for flavours' the only time I bothered going there I got an 'as long as it works for us' impression
<ali1234> the trick is to not give up
<ali1234> remind them every day that they failed
<elfy> not bothering is working fine for me 
<ali1234> if you ever need someone to do this i actually rather enjoy it
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> well worked for a really old soundblaster card (and I mean old) - doesn't work for a bit younger asus xonar
<ali1234> what do you mean by "doesn't work"
<elfy> doesn't even try to show now :)
<elfy> indicator-sound
<elfy> soundcard is fine :)
<elfy> believe me - I'd be shouting if I had no sound :D
<ali1234> if it doesn't show then it isn't running
<ali1234> this is a failure of upstart (again)
<elfy> then it isn't running 
<elfy> mmm 
<ali1234> upstart is just really bad
<elfy> didn't think about trying to boot upstart 
<ali1234> it's a shame they won't replace it with systemd in the session this cycle
<ali1234> boot upstart?
<ali1234> you can't, it's the session init
<ali1234> restarting it restarts the session
<ali1234> the trouble with upstart though is it is event based
<elfy> I don't boot with upstart - I boot with systemd 
<ali1234> it doesn't matter
<ali1234> you still use upsart for session init
<ali1234> and indicators are part of the session
<elfy> mmm 
<ali1234> pid 1 init is the system init and runs as root
<ali1234> that is systemd
<elfy> wonder would would happen if I removed upstart then 
<ali1234> but session init is the first program running as your user
<elfy> s/what would
<ali1234> if you remove upstart the whole xubuntu desktop will break?
<elfy> not in a vm it doesn't 
<ali1234> .... i don't believe you :P
<elfy> not tried hardware yet
<ali1234> should make any difference in a VM
<ali1234> should not*
<ali1234> i'm going to try it now
<ali1234> i bet it breaks really bad
<elfy> install systemd-sysv that'll remove ubuntu-minimal, ureadahead, and upstart and update grub
<elfy> if it does completely go pete tong then we need to shout a lot I would guess
<ali1234> why?
<ali1234> upstart will remain as the session init for ubuntu in 15.04
<elfy> that's not what they're planning 
<ali1234> yes it is
<ali1234> in fact today is the sprint to convert system daemons to upstart
<elfy> oh is that what he meant by "ubuntu-minimal, ureadahead, and upstart "
<elfy> bah 
<ali1234> me: Â Are you planning to convert the session services like indicators?ï»¿
<elfy> is that what he meant by "[08:15] <pitti> and then next cycle address session upstart"
<ali1234> yes exactly
<elfy> even though " [08:15] <pitti> elfy: so I hope we can flip the switch end of Jan/start of Feb"
<ali1234> he told me the same on G+ when i asked last week
<elfy> aah ok 
<ali1234> flip the switch for pid 1 yes
<elfy> right 
<ali1234> there are TWO inits when a user is logged in
<elfy> ok - got that now - thanks :)
<ali1234> pid 1 and the user's private session init
<ali1234> right now no unity stuff will work without upstart
<ali1234> and it's not planeed for this cycle either
<ali1234> which is a pity because frankly indicators worked a lot better when they used dbus activation
<elfy> but if someone removes those three packages - what happens then? no upstart so how would any session use it? 
<ali1234> that's like saying "what happens if you uninstall kernel?"
<ali1234> the asnwer is: the whole system completely breaks
<ali1234> so don't
<elfy> mmm - have to have a go with that now then :)
<ali1234> btw
<ali1234> if you actually want to break your system you need to uninstall upstart-bin
<ali1234> that's what provides /sbin/upstart
<elfy> I don't particularly want to - just following that install of systemd-sysv
<ali1234> so i just did this
<ali1234> it falls back to xfce4-session... which is nice
<ali1234> no indicators though as they hard-depend on upstart
<elfy> ok
<elfy> thanks
<elfy> worse than just not having the sound one :p
<ali1234> can you pastebin a ps waxf please?
<elfy> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9769427/
<ali1234> okay check lines 156 and 157
<ali1234> for some reason upstart decided to only run indicator-messages
<elfy> no idea why that then 
<ali1234> have a look in ~/.cache/upstart/
<ali1234> there should be lots of logs in there
<elfy> yep
<elfy> well 
<elfy> lots of backups I guess
<ali1234> it does use logrotate
<elfy> yep
<elfy> only actually have dbus/startxfce4 and a crash
<brainwash> what about indicator-application-service? it's started differently, not by upstart
<ali1234> that is a different indicator
<ali1234> it's because it has a different init script
<elfy> last sound one was http://pastebin.com/ES2FM9wD
<ali1234> okay that would explain why it doesn't work
<elfy> should I report this then? 
<ali1234> of course
<ali1234> actually maybe not
<ali1234> what happens if you run upstart --user --startup-event indicator-services-start
<ali1234> it should run them all again
<ali1234> lol, you get no networking if you remove upstart-bin
<ali1234> and then you can't reinstall it
<ali1234> (easily)
<ali1234> i guess i will just reinstall then
<elfy> heh
<brainwash> ali1234: http://lpaste.net/118631
<ali1234> brainwash: meh, i dunno
<ali1234> the whole upstart event system is really bad
<elfy> ali1234: if I run that then sound starts - but there's no menu - just a line where the menu should be 
<ali1234> that means the indicator loaded but couldn't talk to pulseaudio
<ali1234> is this today's iso?
<elfy> this is installed from one from a week or so ago 
<elfy> but 
<ali1234> well it was working yesterday
<elfy> today's image booted to hardware and I see the same thing
<elfy> I looked earlier today
<ali1234> seems like a problem with pulseaudio or alsa then
<ali1234> hardware specific, i mean
<elfy> yea 
<elfy> tomorrow I'll double check with the machine that's got the old mobo and soundcard - but I suspect it's fine
<brainwash> ali1234: should we forward bug 1087242 upstream (xfwm4)?
<ubottu> bug 1087242 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "XFWM4 not disabling the compositor effects on some fullscreen apps" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1087242
<ali1234> yes, but don't expect it to get fixed
<ali1234> actually it's probably already on the tracker somewhere
<brainwash> so it can be fixed in the xfwm4 code?
<ali1234> theoretically
<brainwash> some sort of blacklist?
<ali1234> theoretically all bugs can be fixed
<brainwash> I mean, can it be fixed in xfwm4 without much effort or do the affect games/apps need to be patched?
<brainwash> affected
<ali1234> neither
<ali1234> it can't be fixed without much effort
<ali1234> and the affects apps should not be patched
<brainwash> ah, uhm, maybe compton has some solution for this
<brainwash> or compiz :)
<ali1234> compiz took years and two rewrites to make it work
<brainwash> ok then, maybe I'll forward it upstream, but no one seems to care anyway
<elfy> well - night both 
<elfy> I'll see what happens tomorrow and boot the image - if I see the same thing still I'll report it 
<ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/compositor.c#n1995
<ali1234> this is the code that decides is a window is unredirected
<ali1234> wait a minute
<ali1234> this code ... :(
<ali1234> #define WIN_HAS_DAMAGE(cw)              (cw->damage)
<ali1234> #define WIN_IS_DAMAGED(cw)              (cw->damaged)
 * sidi pokes knome 
 * knome gets poked
<Unit193> But I don't want knome, I want Sean or Simon.
<Unit193> (Hopefully they don't have that set for highlight.)
<knome> that phrase? i don't think so
<knome> :P
<brainwash> ali1234: the try or install window is rendered with a maximize button initially, but it disappears after selecting a different language o.O
<brainwash> it should not be there in the first place
<brainwash> selecting a different language triggers a window size change I think
<brainwash> is http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?id=78b5c3c48a187ae54d97369a738b8a18e31e459a incomplete?
<brainwash> I don't care about the installer window, but I would like to fix my patch if it's not covering all possible conditions
<Unit193> Updated xubuntu-dev/extras.
<brainwash> bluesabre: logind-handle-lid-switch=false as initial value in 14.10 is correct, because suspend is not the selected lid close action
<ochosi> Unit193: i do
<ochosi> brainwash, ali1234, elfy: indicator-sound's volume scale is broken, likely because of gtk3.14. i've already informed larsu a longer while ago and he said he'll take care of it
<ali1234> it works fine for me
<ali1234> how is it broken?
<brainwash> I did not notice anything broken either
<brainwash> with Greybird
<ochosi> try DND
<ali1234> actually it does act a little bit wierd when i click on it
<ochosi> or clicking
<ali1234> but who ever does that?
<ochosi> well whoever, that really doesn't matter
<brainwash> oh, you have to actually interact with it :D
<ali1234> that's kinda messed up
<ali1234> but totally not the problem elfy had
<ochosi> yeah i know
<ali1234> is there a bug report for this?
<ochosi> i'm not sure tbh
<bluesabre> evening folks
<ali1234> maybe this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound/+bug/1410176 is elfy's problem?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1410176 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/indicator-sound/indicator-sound-service:11:volume_control_sink_info_cb_for_props:_volume_control_sink_info_cb_for_props_pa_context_sinkinfocb:context_get_sink_info_callback:run_action:pa_pdispatch_run" [High,Confirmed]
<ali1234> lol: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound/+bug/1394193
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1394193 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "114 instances of indicator-sound-service running" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ali1234> i told you about upstart bro... i warned you
<bluesabre> haha
<ochosi> oh hey bluesabre 
 * bluesabre hides
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> no worries, i'm about to head to bed anyway
<bluesabre> *phew*
<knome> hah
#xubuntu-devel 2015-01-18
<ochosi> bluesabre: you didn't push any of your catfish changes yet, right?
<bluesabre> nope
<ali1234> i have 140 zombie pidgins :(
<bluesabre> ochosi: saw that xubuntu-artwork was updated, will push that probably tonight
<ochosi> bluesabre: i originally wanted to wait until gnome had added his in-development wallpaper, but yeah, i'd say go ahead. that way we'll discover more missing icons etc
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> alright
<bluesabre> thanks a lot gnome!
<bluesabre> s/g/k
<knome> hah.
<knome> gee
<knome> i'm off to bed
<knome> nighty
<bluesabre> nighty knome, have fun
<Unit193> ali1234: Wow!  Lock your doors, bar your windows!
<Unit193> ochosi: And dang.
<ochosi> brainwash: that MR looks a bit messy with the .pc folder, we'll see what potential uploaders will say
<yanpas> Hello everybody! I want to report a bug, but it doesn't refer to any package. I may explain it here
<elfy> you can try 
<elfy> ali1234: for what it's worth I reported mine 
<yanpas> Autostart application start too early, so they have problems with gtk theme, fonts or even doesn't work. I use autologin option
<yanpas> applications*
<yanpas> will try to report it to xfce-session. Maybe I will be redirected.
<brainwash> ochosi: ok. but will someone look at it? I will have to ping a "potential" uploader, right?
<ochosi> brainwash: no, i'll take care of that part
<ochosi> (in case you're referring to your xdg-utils patch)
<brainwash> ochosi: yes, thanks
<ochosi> no problem
<ochosi> i'll just have to see what sort of feedback i get about that .pc dir
<ochosi> i hope they'll clean up the package a bit
<Unit193> Only thing I can think of, micahg commented once that he dislikes making reviews with that, but didn't imply it was actually against general guidelines.
<ochosi> hm ok
<ochosi> yeah, it makes the diff a bit messy
<Unit193> ^
<ochosi> anyway, will see what u-desktop folks say..
<brainwash> I'm trying to patch our xubuntu keybind file in trusty (rename Control to Primary). this will fix the bug almost, only leaving the maximize keybind in a broken state
<brainwash> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1292290/comments/31
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1292290 in xfce4-settings "Window manager keybindings don't work after reboot" [Medium,Confirmed]
<brainwash> I don't think that we can remap the maximize keybind to the default Xfce one
<brainwash> especially for trusty
<brainwash> and this the problem, the SRU should fix the bug 100%.. or is almost 100% ok too?
<ubottu> bug 100 in Launchpad itself "uploading po file overwrites authors list" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/100
<knome> panel switch app, ooh ooh
<brainwash> ochosi: https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/xubuntu-default-settings/lp1292290/+merge/246842
<Unit193> astraljava: Wow, welcome back.
<astraljava> Hello, and thanks. :)
<brainwash> ochosi: oh snap, I guess every commit should also update the debian changelog
<brainwash> I think that the merger is responsible for the packaging.. mmh
<knome> astraljava, hullo :)
<astraljava> Howdy! :)
<knome> question: does xubuntu-team need to be subbed to -default-settings?
<knome> i know it's the owner, but afaik, we could practically also mute the sub mail
<brainwash> did you receive a mail which informs you about my MR?
<knome> yes
<brainwash> oh :)
<knome> -- Your team Xubuntu Team is subscribed to branch lp:xubuntu-default-settings. 
 * Unit193 likes.
<knome> being subbed or not being subbed?
<knome> i mean i don't mind getting those, but isn't it a bit weird that everybody in the team gets those :)
<Unit193> Getting it, though getting the diff too is nicer.
<ochosi> hey astraljava 
<knome> (not to say they shouldn't get it, or that we should hide it...)
<knome> everything is available in launchpad anyway
<Unit193> Meh, if you do remove it, please ping me so I can add myself.
<knome> i don't think i can, i guess only team admins can
<knome> which is why i'm bringing it up here
<knome> which tasks do we want to promote to http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/find-a-task/ ?
<Unit193> QA and translations it seemed like.
<knome> oki
<elfy> and anything that we don't get enough people helping on 
<knome> well we could add everything
<knome> but let's start poking the ice with a few
<knome> then add more as needed
<astraljava> Hi ochosi!
<elfy> hey astraljava :)
<bluesabre> hey astraljava, welcome :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: hey, should I update the debian changelog file in my MR for xubuntu-default-settings or should the merger do that?
<astraljava> Hey guys. :)
<bluesabre> brainwash: go ahead... if a new release has been tagged but not pushed, (release "UNRELEASED") do "dch -r" (revise), otherwise "dch -i" (increment) to set the new version number
<brainwash> bluesabre: ok, I will do that for future commits
<brainwash> bluesabre: want to prepare a new xubu default settings release after the MR? the keybind fix cannot be SRU'd back to utopic and trusty without it landing in vivid
<brainwash> trusty also needs a commit which is already included in utopic/vivid
<bluesabre> brainwash: sure, is there anything else needed in vivid default-settings?
<brainwash> bluesabre: does not look like it. cosmetic changes are not planned, or?
<brainwash> the development wallpaper thingy
<bluesabre> that's xubuntu-artwork package
<brainwash> ah, so the image path remains the same
<bluesabre> yup --I'll package these things today
<brainwash> ok, thanks
<slickymaster> knome, translations definitely re: http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/find-a-task/
<slickymaster> besides QA, I belive that it's one of our major shortcomings
<knome> slickymaster, already forwarded
<jjfrv8> ochosi, did you want me to update the xfpm docs to incorporate the Security tab?
<sidi> knome, ?
<knome> sidi, was?
<sidi> "Set up a firewall" is totally useless for 90% of your users btw
<knome> i'm aware of that
<knome> maybe we should add a note that it isn't usually needed
<sidi> i'll come to that
<knome> "you should consider setting up a firewall only if you do X"
<sidi> knome, wanna use a drive, so you can see what im typing and comment in live?
<knome> worksforme
<sidi> shared with your @shimmer address
<knome> will start monitoring that in a sec
<ochosi> jjfrv8: so far that tab hasn't been merged upstream and bluesabre and me are still discussing whether one of the options will remain there. but when it's finalized it can hopefully be merged upstream and then i guess adding it to the docs would be great!
<sidi> knome, currently on Xubuntu you can set your password store to use the same password as your login, can't you?
<sidi> i can't remember how that's implemented but it seemed to me to be insecure...
<knome> probably yes
<knome> i don't use a password store so i wouldn't know though
<jjfrv8> ochosi, ok, I'll stay tuned.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: thanks for being so attentive!
<sidi> knome, you'll be responsible for squeezing this btw :p
<knome> or jjfrv8 or slickymaster 
<sidi> knome, i would delete "firewall" altogether
<knome> sidi, wfm
<sidi> it only makes sense if you run public-facing services, or if you're not on a NAT
<sidi> *any* non-tech-savvy home user will be on a NAT
<knome> well maybe we can leave a note
<sidi> except maybe in China where they have IPv6
<knome> "if you run public-facing services or are on a NAT, consider setting up a firewall"
<sidi> knome, the firewall, if not configured, does nothing. Blocking access to services you don't even run is useless. Security issues are in the services, not in the network stack ;p firewalls are useful for rate limiting and packet inspection only, and that isn't what they do without instructions.
<sidi> Sure
<knome> of course
<sidi> suffix with "Understand that firewalls are not very useful in their default settings. You should consider what you want to achieve and configure the firewall accordingly. Firewalls can be useful to protect against denial of service attacks, limit access to a service to specific IP addresses or to inspect and reject suspicious packets. They cannot protect you against unknown or emerging threats, and they do not replace the need to install security upd
<sidi> ates." 
<knome> drop that in the doc and i'll take it
<sidi> yeah sure.
<CajunTechie> Hey folks. What's the right chan for people who want to get involved in testing?
<knome> CajunTechie, this, or #ubuntu-quality
<CajunTechie> Thank you knome. :-)
<knome> sidi, i've went through the passwords stuff now, once you are done, feel free to review if i'm getting the same message across
<ochosi> CajunTechie: if you need help or anything, always feel free to ask. our testing lead is elfy (who's probably in dreamland now), but others will answer your questions too if they know
<CajunTechie> Thank you ochosi. I actually already have a question: is testing for 15.04 or 15.10 still happening now? And, if so, where can I get the images?
<knome> CajunTechie, we're testing 15.04 now
<knome> CajunTechie, see the xubuntu product at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/326/builds (end of the page)
<CajunTechie> Cool. I'll go check it out now.
<knome> that has links to downloads and the testcases, and is the place to report install tests
<knome> if you plan to test often, it's recommended to rsync
<knome> (the first time makes no difference, but subsequential times will be faster)
<sidi> knome, i'm kinda done with laying down the general ideas
<knome> great!
<knome> :)
<sidi> now we can work on formatting, englishing and scoping up/down
<knome> well check 1/2
<knome> i think they are pretty good as they are now
<knome> let's do comments comments if needed
<knome> eg. not change the text
<knome> so it's easier to track changes
<sidi> 1, 2.1, 3.1 and 3.2  are the most important things btw
<knome> we can do an intro paragraph that mentions that
<sidi> anyone wanting to read/contribute https://docs.google.com/document/d/18sEImteNJVZ7T6o0RR7erJbCpS8dXwHDC0pRpu1K3aI/edit?usp=sharing
<sidi> sure
<knome> is ochosi a turtle
<ochosi> i am?
<knome> don't know
<knome> an anonymous turtle is watching the document
<ochosi> right, that's not me then
<ochosi> probably the nsa
<sidi> knome, 1. doesnt make sense without the names of the vulns I referred to :p
<sidi> hahaha that turtle is hilarious
<sidi> does it say "anon turtle" in finnish for you knome ?
<knome> nope
<knome> i don't even use google in finnish
<knome> sidi, maybe do the name dropping after the tip though...
<sidi> knome, hm yeah you're right
<sidi> knome, can you add a "Consider encryption" in the hygiene part? i'll fill it later :p
<knome> k
<sidi> hm my browser is freezing. Neat
<knome> haha.
<knome> security breach
<knome> ochosi, are you the python or the anteater?
<sidi> don't you guys have automated sec updates?
<ali1234> knome: you can't see which animal you are, but i'm not the anteater so i guess i am the python?
<knome> i/we should check if a clean install does
<knome> ali1234, probably :)
<ochosi> brainwash: good writeup on the recent bugreport-comment
<brainwash> ochosi: the xfpm one?
<knome> sidi, aren't you repeating?
<knome> see under distrivute
<knome> s/v/b/ too
<ochosi> brainwash: yup
<brainwash> ochosi: heh, I was about to assign the bug to bluesabre.. but then I realized that I cannot do that :D
<sidi> knome, distribute?
<ochosi> brainwash: and i'm not sure you followed the comments in #xfce-dev, but just as i thought we'll have to go with your patch for now. fixing the dbus inhibition is for "another day" and needs to happen upstream in xdg-utils. and i'm not even sure how easy it is to fix
<knome> sidi, what you are typing exists in the subsection below
<brainwash> ochosi: sounds ok, and it works fine. should it be SRU'd too?
<ochosi> brainwash: i'll discuss whether that's possible this week
<brainwash> ochosi: ok
<ochosi> but first i need to get it merged for vivid anyway
<AgAu> what are you thoughts about using something like keepass to store strong passwords?
<knome> sidi, oh, not really
<sidi> AgAu, mitigated
<sidi> they're nice but:
<sidi> 1. you need to use them across all devices, else you end up still having to change passwords
<sidi> for instance connecting to skype from a friend's computer
<sidi> and then you have to "re-sync" the password with the newly reset password in your password manager or repeat the cycle
<sidi> 2. i dont store my passwords online on unknown servers via proprietary APIs, no thanks
<sidi> so yeah, i think they're not an actual solution
<AgAu> well it's not a problem for me
<sidi> if i can have a password manager in my pocket (with a backup at home and maybe another in a digital safe of my choosing) then fine
<AgAu> i carry my database on an encrypted drive
<AgAu> and i don't use other peoples devices
<ali1234> yeah, needing access to things from untrusted computers is the big reason why i don't use them
<ali1234> if someone made a simple and cheap hardware password device i might use it
<ali1234> and i don't mean like yubikey
<sidi> ali1234, look up the Pico project
<sidi> there's a group at cambridge working exactly on this
<sidi> with strong security properties and a design-centric approach
<ali1234> remember those casio personal organizers?
<sidi> our boss does consulting for them :p
<AgAu> keepass portable works on windows, linux and mac
<ali1234> http://images.geeksimages.com/imageshare/S/300x300/SF2000-unit.jpg
<AgAu> and you can easily use the same database file for all 3
<ali1234> i want something like that, with built in crypto and NO way to connect it to a computer without destroying it
<sidi> AgAu, the problem is, who the hell is KeePass and what government do they respond to?
<AgAu> its opensource
<ali1234> pico looks like exactly what idon't want... it interfaces with the computer, like yubikey
<sidi> ali1234, it has a concept of sibling tokens
<sidi> using RFC
<sidi> it can tell whether it's close to you or not
<ali1234> yeah, no
<sidi> you have embedded siblings in your clothes/belt/shoes, etc. and if they're absent, it's locked
<ali1234> i want a thing that stores encrypted passwords in flash, decrypts them when i enter the passphrase, and displays the password on a small screen for me to transcribe
<ali1234> it shouldn't be hard to do, those casio things were Â£20 20 years ago
<AgAu> what happens if your yubi key beraks
<AgAu> breaks*
<AgAu> or you lose it 
<sidi> ali1234, transcribe, uuugh
<sidi> those devices exist
<sidi> people hate them
<ali1234> i'm not people
<sidi> cant reliably type a password above 6 characters
<sidi> ali1234, careful we get asked to evaluate really bad technology on a regular basis, i could add you to our participant pool :p
<ali1234> i'm not saying everyone should use it
<CajunTechie> One more question: I'm going through the steps on the team page and they say to add yourself to the WhoWeAre and the Hardware pages. But the pages won't let me edit them. Do I need to submit my info somewhere?
<knome> CajunTechie, do you have a launchpad account?
<CajunTechie> knome: I do and it says I am logged in
<knome> CajunTechie, try hard refreshing the page
<brainwash> ochosi: ah great, now I've reread the xfpm comment with the different test cases and it feels like I've missed something. with logind=false and action=lock, why does the system suspend? logind should be inhibited and xfpm should only lock, not suspend.. now this is getting way too confusing
<CajunTechie> knome: Nope. It shows me as logged in but no edit button
<ochosi> brainwash: too many options in too many places, it's really difficult to keep an overview of everything in place
<ochosi> brainwash: but sounds like the inhibition wasn't successful or the logic of xfpm wasn't inverted yet hence logind was actually taking over
<brainwash> ochosi: once you think that you know what's going on.. you discover something new :)
<brainwash> ochosi: right, I will have to check the code again
<knome> CajunTechie, you can skip that for now
<CajunTechie> knome: Great! So I can just get started testing and submitting bugs?
<knome> CajunTechie, absolutely
<CajunTechie> Very cool
<sidi> knome, i think we could upstream this document to Xfce docs btw
<knome> sidi, i guess so, if they had a sensible place to put it to
<knome> sidi, or if you are interested enough, register a domain and create a one-place-for-all site
<sidi> knome, for security advice or for xfce docs? ;P
<knome> security advice
<sidi> knome im running student projects every year on how to quantify and prioritise the known good security practice
<sidi> to produce concise and "impactful" documents to share with the general public
<knome> heh
<sidi> last year's batch was disappointing
<knome> then for that
<knome> awwh
<sidi> but yeah
<sidi> when we have the evidence to back up claims
<sidi> we'll release documents
<knome> ;)
<sidi> that's one of my secret phd goals :p
<knome> heh
<sidi> knome, hmmm we should mention password managers
<knome> go ahead
<knome> sidi, i'm not sure of the xkcd comic, but thanks for the thought.
<sidi> (FTR we use the word "security hygiene" to build a mental model of security practice as a repeated habit, that doesn't have to be blindly followed but that should be trained as a set of best-effort reflexes which have a generally desirable outcome)
<knome> aha
<sidi> (security should be treated as hygiene rather than dogma or impossible tasks, the choice of word is very conscientious :p)
<knome> password managers and firewall could go into a separate section near the end
<knome> fwiw, we can't do docbook interlinks that have the different link name than the actual section name
<knome> at least easily
<sidi> knome, i didnt get that :p
<sidi> managers should go with passwords though, methinks
<knome> fine
<sidi> knome, you removed a part at the end of "When to change your password", didnt you?
<sidi> i had posted something about not ignoring password alerts.
<sidi> oh its below
<knome> :P
<sidi> ok, save for the Encryption and Password Manager bits, this is written!
<knome> great
<knome> when do you plan on doing that?
<knome> i'd rather convert the whole stuff to docbook at once
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-18
<jjfrv8> flocculant, oh so that's what happened. I thought I had misremembered signing up.
<bluesabre> evening all
<bluesabre> Logan, don't suppose you'd like to sponsor a package? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shimmer-themes/+bug/1535163 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535163 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "[needs-packaging] Please upload shimmer-themes-2.1.0-0ubuntu1 to xenial" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Unit193> https://bugs.debian.org/811323 - https://bugs.debian.org/811324
<ubottu> Debian bug 811323 in src:mugshot "mugshot: FTBFS: ImportError: No module named 'gi'" [Serious,Open]
<ubottu> Debian bug 811324 in src:menulibre "menulibre: FTBFS: ImportError: cannot import name Gtk, introspection typelib not found" [Serious,Open]
<Unit193> Also wicd hit unstable.
<bluesabre> Unit193: by the look of that build log, I'd say python or pybuild is broken
<knome> nice feedback about the docs on #x
<slickymasterWork> knome, pleia2, can you please mediatize https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-January/011002.html
<slickymasterWork> and sorry, but I forgot the subject in the call :P
<knome> sigh
<slickymasterWork> don't sigh, knome 
<slickymasterWork> I'm dealing with malfunction array in a domain controller server since 08:00 AM, with no success :P
<slickymasterWork> and it's driving me nuts
<pleia2> slickymasterWork: done
<slickymasterWork> thanks pleia2 :)
<slickymasterWork> knome, ping
<knome> slickymasterWork, pong
<knome> slickymasterWork, sorry, i was carried out..
<knome> slickymasterWork, but i did tweet
<slickymasterWork> thanks
<slickymasterWork> ubuntu-devel, edubuntu-devel, kubuntu-devel, lubuntu-devel and ubuntu-studio-devel
<slickymasterWork> did I forgot anyone? ^^ 
<knome> ubuntu gnome and mate?
<knome> kylin
<knome> you should look at the slideshow sources to see which flavors have a slideshow there
<slickymasterWork> didn't manage to find mate's devel m/l
<knome> the rest probably don't care anyway
<knome> then send to the general/user list
 * knome shrugs
<slickymasterWork> wanna take a look at my draft?
<slickymasterWork> no kylin in the slideshow sources
<slickymasterWork> not even mate
<knome> i thought kylin had stuff...
<knome> but maybe i just misremember
<knome> and i can have a look if you want
<slickymasterWork> check your mail, please
<flocculant> evening
<slickymasterWork> hey flocculant 
<flocculant> hi slickymasterWork - keeping busy then :)
<slickymasterWork> well, finally got a break from all the travelling around 
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> evening all
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey knome 
<knome> what's up?
<bluesabre> knome: not much yet
<knome> aha
<knome> slickymaster, wow, i think that's a new record
<knome> slickymaster, or in other words, do you think that paragraph or in other words, that email, could have more than one sentence?
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-19
<bluesabre> flocculant: new PPA for catfish with stable, unstable, and daily builds: https://code.launchpad.net/~catfish-search/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
<bluesabre> flocculant: planning on doing similar for the other individual apps we have
<bluesabre> Unit193: still looking into https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=811324, but based on what I've seen so far, pybuild with python3.5 is running unittests that do not exist, and dies
<ubottu> Debian bug 811324 in src:menulibre "menulibre: FTBFS: ImportError: cannot import name Gtk, introspection typelib not found" [Serious,Open]
<bluesabre> PPA solution: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~catfish-search/+junk/catfish-daily-debian/revision/3
<bluesabre> (probably not a reasonable official solution) :D
<flocculant> bluesabre: cheers - I did see your comments the other day about this
<flocculant> which one would you want *me* to use, which one *testers generally* ?
<pleia2> knome: did we ever find a way around the brokenness of resizing images in xubuntu.org interface, or should I just upload _sm files too again?
<pleia2> anyway, another "xubuntu at" draft is up sans pictures
<slickymaster> Unit193, not quite sure I'll be able to attend the meeting
<Unit193> OK.
<pleia2> I'll finally get to attend \o/
<Unit193> pleia2: Bummer it'll be the one I chair. :P
<pleia2> you'll do fine
<Unit193> === Xubuntu community meeting in 20 minutes ===
<flocculant> not going to be here ... or at least not beginning :)
<Unit193> That's OK, I have no idea about most of the topics anyway.
<Unit193> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<Unit193> #chair ochosi knome
<Unit193> Howdy and welcome to the Xubuntu community meeting.  Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 19 21:00:00 2016 UTC.  The chair is Unit193. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<meetingology> Current chairs: Unit193 knome ochosi
<Unit193> So anyone else here or can I do a veeeery short one?
<krytarik> I'm here.
<pleia2> o/
<Unit193> Nice.
<Unit193> #topic Open action items
<Unit193> (I know of none.)
<Unit193> #topic Updates and Announcements
<Unit193> Anyone have anything to announce?
<pleia2> nope
<Unit193> Looks like Numix will work out, just have to compile the SASS, and that's already in the PPA now.
<Unit193> #topic Discussion items
<Unit193> #subtopic Volunteers for running a 16.04 Community Wallpaper contest?
<Unit193> I believe bluesabre is setting up a submission form, but apart from that..
<pleia2> knome said he'd announce it, and we'll share on the social medias
<pleia2> I think
<pleia2> or maybe that was just to find volunteers :)
<Unit193> Alright, I missed that part too.
<Unit193> So moving on.
<Unit193> #subtopic Ubuntu Software Center will be replaced by Gnome Software in Xenial
<Unit193> Where do we stand on this? (There are not too many alternatives apart from Synaptic or CLI)
<Unit193> It seems very basic, and last I knew it didn't exactly find new applications well, if at all.
<Unit193> (it'll get there, but still very basic.)
<pleia2> I don't know anything about this
<Unit193> Anyone have any comments, remarks, or test results from trying it out?  There's a test PPA for it.
<Unit193> Ubuntu isn't going to be using USC, GNOME Software seems to be what they're going for (it works on appstream files, integration work is ongoing in Debian and either just started or getting ready to start in Ubuntu.)
 * pleia2 nods
<Unit193> Alright, so if there's nothing else on that one either...
<Unit193> #subtopic Alpha 2 participation
<Unit193> I, as always, defer to flocculant on that one.  If it gets more testing, that's great, and maybe a couple more RC releases would be useful since it's an LTS.
<pleia2> for reference, a2 lands on January 28th
<pleia2> only 10 days away
<ochosi> hi
<ochosi> sorry for being late
<ochosi> Unit193: since there aren't so many ppl around, mind if i quickly add a comment to gnome software?
<Unit193> I don't think I've noticed anything horrible in it now.
<Unit193> ochosi: Suuuure.
<ochosi> alright, so just very quickly: my stance is that we should definitely check it out, but in the end i'd go with following ubuntu's lead
<ochosi> even if it seems terrible in the alpha stage that it is in now
<ochosi> if USC isn't maintained anymore, that's fairly bad for LTS
<ochosi> even though i don't really know how much they fixed/improved since they first released USC, having not-anymore-maintained software in LTS is sort of a no-no to me
<Unit193> Right, not really an option there, unless everyone else would be fine going with Synaptic.
<pleia2> heh
<ochosi> i presume that if gnome software is still horrible in beta even ubuntu might go back to USC for LTS and switch in 16.10
<ochosi> hehe, well synaptic is still the same as it ever was
<Unit193> GTK3 at least.
<ochosi> i'd rather not change to something completely different for LTS
<Unit193> Well either way, it's going to be a big change.
<ochosi> after 16.04, i'd be fine with exploring our options and just seeing how our (vocal) user-base reacts to such a change
<ochosi> yeah, or not. depends on what ubuntu ends up doing
<ochosi> ok, so that was it from my side
<Unit193> ochosi: Anything on alpha release?
<slickymaster> o/
<slickymaster> still made it
<ochosi> in terms of alpha, i'm not sure, yeah more testing is good
<slickymaster> at least part of it
<ochosi> then again bluesabre said that not so much has changed since 15.10
<Unit193> Frontend or backend?
<ochosi> i for one likely wouldn't be around to do the effort of actually releasing the alpha, so i'd leave the final decision to bluesabre and flocculant 
<Unit193> Sounds good to me.
<ochosi> Unit193: i presume frontend, but i've only done rudimentary xenial testing so far
<ochosi> not even a hardware install
<ochosi> and in vbox you don't notice many things
<slickymaster> yeah, the tests I've done in VBox all went smoothly
<ochosi> so yeah, i haven't really heard many arguments in favor of doing an alpha (apart from potentially more testing/feedback)
<Unit193> ochosi: Yeah we'll just defer to them then.
<ochosi> cool
<Unit193> #subtopic QA IRC package testing session
<Unit193> slickymaster: â
<ochosi> Unit193: feel free to give them an action item or something btw
<slickymaster> as far as I know flocculant is on top of that
<slickymaster> whether that session will occur will depend on the number of interested 
<slickymaster> it's schedule to the 31st
<Unit193> Alright, so anything we're supposed to do for the subtopic?
<slickymaster> I guess nothing much
<Unit193> #subtopic Themes
<Unit193> ochosi: â?
<ochosi> well i'm still trying to iron out some minor issues with Greybird, but the good news is that it works okayish with the last commits from git
<ochosi> Numix is currently unmaintained and will likely remain as is for the rest of the dev cycle
<ochosi> so we
<Unit193> GTK3.16 problems?
<ochosi> 'll have to evaluate how well the SASS branch works
<ochosi> gtk3.18 in xenial
<ochosi> and then decide whether we want to include it as is
<ochosi> i think bluesabre already did some packaging, so shimmer daily PPA should be the way to go
<Unit193> As I noted above, yeah.
<ochosi> #info All xenial testers that experience theme issues shall use the shimmer daily PPA to get the latest versions of our themes, Numix and Greybird
<Unit193> Want to note anything about pidgin?
<ochosi> another piece of info is that i worked on a pidgin status icon theme, it's practically finished but pidgin seemingly doesn't support system-wide themes
<ochosi> so we might have to patch that support in
<ochosi> (yeah, was going to mention that anyway ;))
<Unit193> :D
<Unit193> Well I knew something, so had to say it.
<ochosi> i'm not a huge fan of just overwriting the default theme, which is what most theme installers i found on the interwebs suggest you do
<ochosi> (or put it in every users home dir, which is also not kewl)
<Unit193> Yeah that's not going to fly for packaging.
<Unit193> Either one.
<ochosi> also, still some issues around our libreoffice icons, i'm not really sure of the status upstream
<ochosi> and whether the icon theme has been included somehow
<ochosi> and whether we can set it as default now
<ochosi> bluesabre will hopefully be on top of that one too
<Unit193> Sounds fun, we'll assign that to bluesabre too.
<Unit193> Anyone have anything for the next subtopic?  Or can we skip it?
<ochosi> added a workitem for xubuntu-dev
<ochosi> well, you..?
<Unit193> No.
 * ochosi doesn't know anything about the status of -core anymore
<slickymaster> I have been testing Unit193's images
<Unit193> #subtopic Core image
<slickymaster> both 32 and 64 bits
<Unit193> ochosi: Sure you do, same as it's always been "pending on merge"
<ochosi> Unit193: oh meh, still.. i had hoped knome had done more poking meanwhile
<Unit193> ochosi: There's some disagreement on how they should show up on cdimage, infinity seems to understand quite well while xnox and maybe slang don't get it.
<ochosi> :/
<Unit193> ochosi: The MP has a comment or two new, and there's a bit of log to read from -devel, but yeah there's otherwise nothing new.
<Unit193> slickymaster: Anything broken? :P
<slickymaster> nothing so far
<slickymaster> I'd had tell you if it wre
<slickymaster> * were
<Unit193> Great, well thanks then.
<slickymaster> besides the fact that -core size is growing
<ochosi> what size is it now?
<slickymaster> ~aroun 600 MB
<slickymaster> +d 
<slickymaster> correction, around 700 MB
<Unit193> Not a whole lot I can do while sticking with how cdimage would build them.  Ubuntu as a whole is getting a bit bloated under the hood, or more so.  Could do diffs on the manifests though I suppose.
<slickymaster> yeah, that's true
<ochosi> hmm, still sounds acceptable
<Unit193> "acceptable"
<Unit193> Anything else?
<slickymaster> nothing from me
<Unit193> #topic Announcements
<pleia2> we have a new Xubuntu At... article pending
<pleia2> hopefully getting it up this week
<pleia2> that's all I've got
<Unit193> There's some dates coming up, A2 and then FF end of Feb.
<Unit193> #action slickymaster to schedule next meeting.
<meetingology> ACTION: slickymaster to schedule next meeting.
<Unit193> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 19 21:44:35 2016 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-01-19-21.00.moin.txt
<ochosi> pleia2: great, looking forward to that!
<ochosi> thanks for the meeting Unit193 
<slickymaster> thanks Unit193 
<Unit193> Thanks for showing up.
<Unit193> 'Welcome.
<pleia2> thanks Unit193 
 * flocculant managed to read backlog
<flocculant> thanks Unit193 
<Unit193> flocculant: Sorry about your topics.
<Unit193> flocculant: Wiki finally let me in though!
<flocculant> no problem
<flocculant> irc session will happen on 31st - just time to decide on tomorrow
<ochosi> any pidgin users here?
<ochosi> if there are and they show up later, here's a link in case you wanna test something: https://github.com/shimmerproject/pidgin-elementary
<ochosi> night everyone!
<Unit193> Yes, Knight everyone!
<bluesabre> evening everyone!
<Unit193> bluesabre: We defaulted to assigning things to you.
<bluesabre> so I see
<bluesabre> I'll be working hard these next few weeks, woo!
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-20
<knome> pleia2, ah, right, no, i don't think there is a solution right now
<knome> pleia2, but you can probably upload 800xsomething as the "original"
<knome> pleia2, Unit193: the mail was to be about asking for volunteers, but i need to see what the webapp can do before i know what kind of help we need
<knome> ochosi, no, there isn't much more i can do (IMO) than the comment on the merge proposal
<knome> and i'm off.
<knome> ttyl
<krytarik> ochosi: Tested, works - weird directory structure needed there, though ("~/.purple/themes/elementary/purple/status-icon").
<pleia2> alright new xubuntu at article is in draft state, can publish after knome reviews (others with login to the blog can look too)
<flocculant> puckz: you asked me in PM what you can do to contribute ... http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/
<puckz> flocculant: Thanks!
<pleia2> new xubuntu at article: https://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-at-the-working-centres-computer-recycling-project/
<slickymasterWork> \o/
<pleia2> and social media-ed :)
<slickymasterWork> re-shared , pleia2 ;)
<bluesabre> evening all
<Unit193> Howdy.
<bluesabre> hey Unit193 
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-21
<pleia2> flocculant: social mediaed the thing
<flocculant> pleia2: thanks :)
<ochosi> evening all
<knome> hello ochosi 
<ochosi> looking into gnome-software now
<ochosi> (when finally all updates for xenial are through)
<ochosi> ok, so search is still flaky and all, but generally speaking i see a lot of potential in gnome-software
<ochosi> it's very straight-forward and much more gtk-y than the sort of heavy USC
<ochosi> plus it doesn't look broken with greybird out of the box!
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i'd probably still apply some tweaks if we decide to go with it
<knome> yay
<ochosi> gotta admit though that my expectations were fairly low after the initial reports i heard from others
<knome> there will always be people that do not like $x
<ochosi> yeah, but arguably the basic functionality (search and un/install software) has to work
<knome> of course
<ochosi> and it's not working 100% now
<knome> it wouldn't be a package manager if they didn't?
<ochosi> but yeah i presume it will work
<ochosi> or ubuntu can't ship it anyway
<ochosi> alrighty, time for bed
<ochosi> night all
<knome> yep
<knome> okay
<knome> good night then, ttyl
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-22
<bluesabre> evening all
<knome> hey sean
<bluesabre> hey pasi
<bluesabre> how's it going?
<knome> good good
<bluesabre> great great!
<knome> so what's the status of the webapp?
<knome> i expect to have some free time tomorrow for stuff like testing webapps
<knome> O;)
<bluesabre> trying to finish it up tonight/tomorrow/this weekend, I'll get it on github, and give you write access to make any tweaks you want
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> well you know, if it's anything that works at least in some way, just push it
<bluesabre> k
<knome> if there are specific things to be done, write a TODO
<bluesabre> alrighty
<knome> and i can potentially have a look and/or fix them
<bluesabre> the important bits are there (lp login/submission/browsing)
<knome> i'd expect we get much further much faster if the code is somewhere where we both can see it :)
<bluesabre> yes
<bluesabre> I'd be done a long time ago if not for $life
<knome> yeah
<knome> same for the community theme for me
<knome> but at the point you notice it's 2 years since you touched something the last time, it's time to push it to a public repository
<knome> tbh, it's too late at that point, but only fair to push it ASAP
<knome> not saying *you* have taken long :D
<bluesabre> getting there
<knome> the opposite
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> ok, time for me to go to bed
<knome> catch you later
<bluesabre> nighty knome
<bluesabre> knome: feel free to tear it up, https://github.com/bluesabre/wallpaper-contest
<knome> bluesabre, cool
<flocculant> bluesabre: so re catfish ppa ... 3 versions - which would you want a 'tester' to use? I assume you'd want me to use daily? 
<flocculant> hi GridCube 
<GridCube> hi flocculant 
<bluesabre> flocculant: yes, daily
<bluesabre> sorry about not responding to that previously
<flocculant> bluesabre: ha 
<flocculant> so now could respond twice? 
<flocculant> bluesabre: and no problem ofc :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: good idea
<bluesabre> flocculant: daily
<flocculant> bluesabre: same for testers? 
<bluesabre> flocculant: yes, daily for all, that way bugs get reported hopefully before I release an ugly "stable" that only works for me
<flocculant> ok cool
<flocculant> so why the other 2 options? 
<bluesabre> since the ppa is for more than just us, and so regressions can be easily checked
<bluesabre> "try unstable", "try stable"
<flocculant> right
<flocculant> okey doke - now I can't even find the link in backlog lol 
<flocculant> bluesabre: 
<bluesabre> flocculant: https://launchpad.net/~catfish-search/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
<flocculant> thanks :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: and I assume others for menulibre etc will show up - with the same thinking? eg use daily
<bluesabre> flocculant: yes, at some point in the next week or so
<flocculant> bluesabre: okey doke - I'll try and be more awake :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: :D
<flocculant> trying to grab all these 'thoughts' before I start trying to sort a draft session for package testing out
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> working on fixes and such as possible this weekend
<flocculant> which of course I will do in plenty of time ... 
<flocculant> ok 
<flocculant> bluesabre: well I'm mostly about this weekend if you need testing
<ochosi> bluesabre: thanks for pushing the shimmer themes update! let's hope we get that package back soon...
<bluesabre> ochosi: sure would be nice ;)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-23
<ochosi> bluesabre: hmm, so you really wanna patch pidgin..?
<flocculant> bluesabre: A2 is next week - do we or don't we? 
<flocculant> bluesabre: also - 14.04 is the week after - do we want to get a call out for people to test that at all?
<bluesabre> flocculant: a2, pass
<bluesabre> flocculant: new 14.04 point release? We can probably do with a quick check
<bluesabre> ochosi: do I want to... not particularly (I can only imagine how the code must look for a cross-platform gtk app)
<bluesabre> ochosi: but I am willing to take a peek anyway
<ochosi> bluesabre: awesome, that's more than good enough
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-24
<bluesabre> night all, will be more useful tomorrow
<flocculant> bluesabre: remember the hdmi/tv off issue - I get no signal if I turn tv off/on - works if I forget about xfsettingsd 
<bluesabre> flocculant: what do you mean by that last bit, "works if I forget about xfsettingsd"?
<flocculant> hey bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> heya
<flocculant> if I stop it, disable it from session startup - reboot without xfsettingsd - I can turn the tv on and off as much as I like and don't lose signal 
<flocculant> seems to be like bug 1308105
<bluesabre> ah
<ubottu> bug 1308105 in xfce4-settings "Xfce resets TV mode to NULL when power cycled" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1308105
<bluesabre> yes, probably that
<flocculant> but if I do the script - and the udev rule it doesn't work
<flocculant> and - from that bug it seemed to be pre 4.12 
<bluesabre> basically disabling xfsettingsd allows xrandr to be in charge
<flocculant> so I was a bit *shrug( 
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> its a pain :(
<flocculant> indeed
<flocculant> tbh if I could fix it simply I will - but turning the pc off isn't so much of a hardship :D
<flocculant> certainly not worried enough to keep xfsettingsd killed and put up with the fallout from that ;)
<flocculant> is it worth me adding up to date info to the bug(s) ?
<bluesabre> flocculant: doesn't hurt to add another comment to the bug
<bluesabre> ochosi: are contributions on the bug bounties pretty popular? it might be worthwhile to throw a bunch of money at that bug to get somebody to come in and fix it fully
<bluesabre> *code contributions
<flocculant> bluesabre: ack - got it working with a one liner from the xfce bug - better than getting up :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: which one?
<flocculant> while true; do xrandr -d :0 --output HDMI1 --mode 1920x1080; sleep 3; done
<flocculant> in the bug it sleeps for 10, but 3 works here :)
<flocculant> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11107#c48
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11107 in Xfsettingsd "xfsettingsd resets TV mode to NULL on power cycle" [Critical,Reopened]
<flocculant> d'oh ... should have not been lazy and typed comment 48 :p
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: I was scratching my head in this clean install on the parole menu issue till I remembered ppa ... lol
<flocculant> not sure how I managed to forget ppa's :D
<bluesabre> which issue?
 * bluesabre struggles at connecting the dots this morning
<flocculant> the full full screen one :)
<bluesabre> aha
 * flocculant always struggles supplying enough dots for people to connect with :)
<bluesabre> I really need to push a new parole release soon
<bluesabre> maybe today
<bluesabre> looking to fix these three today in catfish
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/catfish-search/+bug/1508918
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1508918 in catfish (Ubuntu) "Deleting from search results" [Medium,Confirmed]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/catfish-search/+bug/1461072
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1461072 in Catfish "Can not drag and drop multiple files" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/catfish-search/+bug/1523164
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1523164 in Catfish "Double quadruple clicking folder results behaviour" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> all kinda related
<flocculant> yea - I certainly know about one of them :)
<flocculant> bbl 
<flocculant> bluesabre: have fun and a good day :)
<bluesabre> seeya flocculant 
<flocculant> oh - ack a2 and 14.04 - I'll work 14.04 in 
<ochosi> bluesabre: so far i think ther is about zero awareness for xfce bug bounties
<ochosi> because we dont expose them anywhere in the tracker or website
<bluesabre> ochosi: allllrighty then
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> so yeah, not sure throwing money would help
<flocculant> still here - helping studio ... 
<flocculant> afternoon ochosi :)
<flocculant> any excuse to not open the tin of gloss paint is a winner 
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> afternoon everyone
<ochosi> bluesabre: any opinion on whether to go with xfpm 1.4 or 1.5/6 with xenial from your side
<ochosi> personally i think it's more realistic that we'll do fixes for 1.5/6
<ochosi> 1.4 is pretty much done
<bluesabre> ochosi: I can see that, but I also see that progress slowed to a halt there at the same time
<ochosi> small fixes like the ones that landed in git master recently can partly be backported and included as distro patches
<ochosi> yeah actually the bugs we intended to fix were done and the gtk3 port was finished and feature wise on par
<ochosi> i guess that was one of the reasons for no more progress
<bluesabre> gotcha
<ochosi> since we decided not to implement too many new features in the port
<ochosi> it's not a 1:1 entirely, but almost
<ochosi> we should've just released 1.6 at some point
<bluesabre> since the interface is done, maybe we can get some patches to make the devices tab look a bit better in numix
<ochosi> it's really stable, i've been using it for ages
<ochosi> a-ha, what does it look like? (looks okay in greybird)
<bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/arRMU17.png
<bluesabre> using the moka theme, so thats why icons are a bit off
<ochosi> ouch
<ochosi> greybird: http://i.imgur.com/SXpGjkf.png
<ochosi> and maybe more importantly adwaita: http://i.imgur.com/x1mUWM6.png
<ochosi> moka doesn't have the needed device icons
<bluesabre> seems like if we just draw borders, things might improve all around
<ochosi> that's partof the issue
<ochosi> potentially, but we could also use different widgets
<ochosi> it's possible to add the frame class to the notebook that holds the detailed info
<ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/mG2hXYG.png
<ochosi> theoretically could also add the sidebar class
<bluesabre> that seems to help
<ochosi> it works but i'm not sure i like that version: http://i.imgur.com/Z9f8D3N.png
<ochosi> with adwaita it doesn't make a diff
<ochosi> so i guess adding the frame class to the gtknotebook would be ok
<bluesabre> yeah, no sidebar class :D
<bluesabre> well, that makes it a table in numix it seems
<bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/dL6ikT6.png
<bluesabre> aha
<bluesabre> ochosi: put it in a GtkScrolledWindow
<bluesabre> there could potentially be lots of properties anyway
<ochosi> no you added the frame to the wrong widget
<ochosi> you have to add it to the gtknotebook
<ochosi> not the treeview
<flocculant> I knew that ... :p
<ochosi> by default the inspector gives you the treeview
<bluesabre> ah
<ochosi> but you have to go up one level in the hierarchy
<bluesabre> could be good to have the scrolled window anyway
<bluesabre> but testing
<bluesabre> ochosi: better
<ochosi> thought so
<bluesabre> dunno why the frame around the viewport on the left fails though
<ochosi> theme setting
<ochosi> adwaita draws one
<bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/QyfPk51.png
<bluesabre> fun
<bluesabre> theme baseed on adwaita does not follow adwaitas properties :D
<ochosi> this should do it: http://dpaste.com/0W48Y9P
<ochosi> at least for the right side
<bluesabre> yup, that's good for that patch
<ochosi> if you want to work on the left side, i guess we have to be more inventive ;)
 * bluesabre might patch numix later
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> sounds like a plan
<ochosi> alright, so i'll quickly test my patch and then push that
<bluesabre> sweet, thanks
<ochosi> no worries
<bluesabre> going to probably work on some patches for the indicator plugin soon... I want to make sure svg icons scale correctly (some currently just zoom in on a tiny part of the icon), a configurable max size like the notification plugin would be nice, and the ability to hide specific applications indicators
<ochosi> you can look in the history of the plugin
<ochosi> that functionality used to be there
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> why was it dropped?
<ochosi> cause the indicator api was changed
<ochosi> as always ;)
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> it used to be scalable
<ochosi> then it *always* supplied 22px icons
<ochosi> cause ya know, convenient for unity's panel
<bluesabre> ack
<ochosi> so andrzejr_ (or someone else?) changed the plugin
<ochosi> and now with hidpi support they had to make it flexible againn
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> a cat and mouse game
<ochosi> naturally we're the mouse (xfce)
<ochosi> ok, xfpm patch pushed
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> thanks ochosi 
<ochosi> to be frank, we should use more modern widgets there
<ochosi> but yeah, 1:1 port...
<bluesabre> is it dual gtk2/gtk3, or gtk3-only at this point?
<ochosi> gtk3-only
<bluesabre> might as well upgrade then
<ochosi> sure, but ya know, it's work!
<ochosi> and we haven't even released a stable gtk3 version
<bluesabre> what gtk3 version is xfce 4.12 targeting?
<bluesabre> 4.14*
<ochosi> it used to be 3.6 :D
<ochosi> (actually that was when 4.12 was planned as a port)
<ochosi> now it's 3.16 iirc
<bluesabre> oh good
<ochosi> no
<ochosi> 3.14
<bluesabre> 3.16/3.18 are similar enough to be theme compatible
<bluesabre> awww
<ochosi> yeah, even 3.14 to 3.16 was fairly ok
<ochosi> 3.20 will be *bad*
<ochosi> (or good, depending on how you look at it
<ochosi> )
<bluesabre> baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
<bluesabre> for existing themes
<bluesabre> good time for a port though, since EVERYTHING changes
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> not sure what that means for xfce
<bluesabre> 4.12 gets some LTS patches and 4.14 targets 3.20+
<ochosi> anyhow, we still have so much porting to do that we'll likely bump the gtk3 target again
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> bluesabre: so what's up today? any plans?
<bluesabre> ochosi: working on catfish bugs, and possibly parole bugs and a new release
<ochosi> cool
<bluesabre> ochosi: what do you have going on today?
<ochosi> i'm handing out commit rights to a numix contributor (hope)
<bluesabre> nice
<ochosi> other than that my daughter might wake up any minute ;)
<ochosi> maybe test that greybird pull request
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> actually that pull request looks ok
<ochosi> (not that i care too much about java apps...)
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> bluesabre: ooh ooh - I like to see "This should now be resolved with the following commit." :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: :D
<bluesabre> took a while to figure out just what was broken there
<flocculant> but in awesome bluesabre fashion you came through :)
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> I do actually read changelogs when I see things *we* might want to know about - so I will be watching for it :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: if I can fix one or two more bugs today, I'll get a new release out today or early this week
<flocculant> okey doke 
<flocculant> bluesabre: re *your* ppa's - currently the qa contr doc stuff shows the 3 we had before - should I push a change when they land - ie once you've set them up they're not going to keep changing? 
<bluesabre> flocculant: I'll probably just have that new format for catfish, menulibre, and mugshot... everything else we can have in the xubuntu ppas (and can make sure we have dailies for those in xubuntu daily ppa as well)
<flocculant> ok - that makes sense, just wanted to be sure what you were going to do
<flocculant> so - 6 ppa's in total 
<flocculant> some I guess will end up with little going on 
<bluesabre> yeah
<flocculant> I'd rather have too much information tbh - try and get past the 'what about this then?' as much as possible
<bluesabre> mugshot: pretty basic, just changing to keep up with gtk/glib/cheese apis; menulibre: probably restructuring the backend (at some point) to be completely xdg compliant... and then fixing xfce's menu to actually be compliant; catfish: not much else to go before a stable release and then just bug fixes
<bluesabre> parole: stable, bug fixes
<bluesabre> xfce: porting to gtk3... at some point
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: while I'm looking 
<bluesabre> xfpanel-switch: supporting more plugins
<flocculant> nvm 
<bluesabre> flocculant: hmm?
 * bluesabre prods flocculant
<flocculant> I Was going to ask something - then looked at versions again :D
<flocculant> xfpm in daily/staging
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> that should be working again
<bluesabre> breakage left and breakage right
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> staging is newer - but daily appears to have been changed today with an older version - confusing me :p
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/ppa should be whats in git
<bluesabre> oh, I see the confusing
<bluesabre> *confusion
<bluesabre> need to bump the version number in that ppa
<bluesabre> will try to take care of that today
<flocculant> bluesabre: re the tv signal thing - I bought one of these http://www.novatech.co.uk/pc/range/novatechpockithdnpi17.html , took 20 minutes after it turning up at the door to have it working :)
<flocculant> including sorting out nfs
<flocculant> fixed to the wall currently :)
<bluesabre> nice
<bluesabre> that one-liner would be good for that then
<flocculant> yea 
<flocculant> seems to work fine 
<Unit193> andrzejr_: BTW, did you see Debian 808942 and Debian 811098?
<ubottu> Debian bug 808942 in xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin "xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin: Does not respect GTK theme colors/icon set" [Minor,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/808942
<ubottu> Debian bug 811098 in xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin "xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin: hogs some CPU if certain xfce4 styles are used" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/811098
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: something for you to think about on the mailing list
<andrzejr_> Unit193, 808942 is probably just the gtk2 vs gtk3 theming issue. Xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin uses gtk3 so it needs a theme that supports both gtk2 and 3.
<andrzejr_> not a bug but not optimal. I assumed Xfce will move to gtk3 soonish and looks like that was wrong.
<Unit193> Hah, well you know Xfce!  And yeah, xfce-look or some default themes don't do well with that type of crap.
<andrzejr_> not sure about 811098, haven't seen that before. It could be that the gtk3 style in use itself is buggy or it uncovers an issue in the plugin.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-01-16
<HiddenDjinn> question, does apt replace apt-get in trusty or in xenial?
<flocculant> knome:re OEM -  flocculant brought this up some time ago and was put of caring by knome who did a good job
<flocculant> HiddenDjinn: xenial - and it's not replaced as such, just added
<HiddenDjinn> flocculant: ok, thanks
<flocculant> knome: further - given that testing we get for normal iso's is pretty pathetic so not really why anyone would think adding things is useful
<flocculant> s/not really sure
<HiddenDjinn> flocculant: i got you
<HiddenDjinn> s/not really why/not really sure why/
<HiddenDjinn> fixed that for you
<flocculant> and by adding things - I mean making testing harder - not the OEM thing - which I cared about once ;)
<HiddenDjinn> oem thing?
<HiddenDjinn> i dropped out of the linux world for a bit...i think i need background
<flocculant> HiddenDjinn: a discussion that happened while I was asleep 
<flocculant> installing system - without user data - user adds that at first boot - like you get when you buy a pc pre-loaded windows 
<HiddenDjinn> flocculant: ok...contemplating sleep myself, soon
<flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - some I suppose useful info - I appeared to have an iso kicking about here from 3rd Jan - lock was broken there
 * flocculant suggests that we add lock/suspend testing to the post install test which currently doesn't test much 
<flocculant> !team | ^^
<ubottu> ^^: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<dkessel> makes sense, +1
<flocculant> knome: re OEM - at least in vm - reboot to end user crashes ... 
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: before I start digging around - should oem work in a vm? just getting black screen here ... 
<flocculant> knome: one more OEM point - while you say we don't support it - we don't say that anywhere and OEM install is there on our iso just like it is anyone else's
<flexiondotorg> flocculant Last time I tested, yes it does,
<flexiondotorg> But I'm seeing some regressions in Ubiquity when testing on Friday night.
<akxwi-dave> flocculant: agree  +1
<ochosi> knome, bluesabre: we should have a brief discussion at some point about an inactive team members cleanup
<bluesabre> alrighty
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: thanks
<flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - thoughts on adding lock to a testcase? 
<flocculant> can't see a problem with it tbh - better than not knowing *when* it failed
<knome> ochosi, i'm around for that now for example
<knome> tbe, now would be a very good time even
<knome> flocculant, re: OEM: yes, i understand it's one more thing to test - but also yes, it's on our ISO whether we want it or not
<knome> flocculant, and iirc i didn't say we don't want it, it wasn't the highest priority then (and it still isn't)
<knome> flocculant, i might recall wrong as well though :P
<flocculant> :D
<knome> but yes, the problem is testing, but it's also a problem if somebody does an OEM install and then the end user is left with a completely broken or awkward system
<knome> i don't know if we can hide the OEM option either?
<flocculant> indeed 
<knome> i mean, completely remove it from xubuntu
<flocculant> though oem install is something that we'd not be supporting 'personally' so would be a case of report it
<knome> yes... at least primarily
<flocculant> not sure whether that's possible
<knome> my gut feeling is that most of the issues with OEM comes from upstream anyway
<knome> i'm pretty sure we can't
<knome> and aren't qualified enough to look
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> you and me both then ;)
<knome> yep ;)
<flocculant> easy enough to add it to the testcase list - and make it optional or something
<knome> so i guess the least thing we could do is run the OEM installation once or twice (not per cycle or within regular testing - literally just once or twice) and report any issues we find
<knome> and yeah, optional testing could work as well, as long as we make it clear that it's probably the least important thing and the fact that it is a test doesn't mean it's supported - or will be
<flocculant> we could have a 'Final BETA test' like we currently have for core
<flocculant> eg - just sits there all cycle adding up as tests get run
<knome> i'm thinking the OEM install is most useful with LTS's anyway
<flocculant> but
<knome> hmmh, not sure if we want to put more stuff on the final beta
<knome> it's already quite busy
<flocculant> my point re testing remains - if 1 or 2 people are testing it only on vm - what point is there in that
<knome> not only for testing, but if bugs appear, it's likely that the other bugs will be always higher priority
<knome> true
<flocculant> well Beta or something - just flinging ideas about atm
<knome> but then i'm not sure how much hardware is really concerned with the OEM stuff
<knome> i mean it's a regular install, you only flip one bit and leave one software thing for after the installation
<flocculant> well what oem is going to send a vm?
<flocculant> or why would you oem install a vm?
<knome> normally, you wouldn't
<knome> i'm just trying to think of anything related to hardware that could break OEM
<knome> and can't come up with anything
<knome> in other words, hardware-related stuff happens regardless of OEM
<flocculant> and then we really get into makeing sure that 'our' minimum specs are good - if we test oem it should install and run satisfactorily on our minimum 
<knome> sure, but again, it's the same installation really
<flocculant> yes
<knome> only the personal data input is moved after the installation
<knome> but sure, maybe once a cycle - or once an LTS cycle
 * knome checks our minimum specs
<flocculant> but if some oem or charity came along and decided they were going to chuck xubuntu oem on a bunch of machines they have for charity and it fails to run - that's our problem isn't it?
<flocculant> we've said it works for Xubuntu
<knome> we offer anything without liability...
<flocculant> yea - I know that ;)
<knome> if we look at the "xubuntu at..." series, we can find many orgs are doing something like this with xubuntu
<flocculant> all I'm saying is that ^^ is something we need to consider amongst eveerything else on the subject
<knome> i don't think they are using OEM tbh, but...
<knome> absolutely
<flocculant> yea I know - which is where my original 'shoudl we do this' came from :
<flocculant> )
<knome> we say our minimum to install/try is 256MB
<knome> and to use is 512MB
<knome> i've considered many times what is the point of having two numbers anyway
<flocculant> mmm
<knome> if you try with 256MB, are you *really* going to get a 256MB extra piece of memory to run it?
<bluesabre> flocculant, I am in favor of adding that test
<flocculant> I'd not want to run firefox and some other app at the same time on 512MB
<knome> me neither
<flocculant> I'd have no screen in no time at all :D
<knome> but what is bearable is subjective
<flocculant> yea
<knome> and we do word it like:
<bluesabre> knome, install with 256, run with 512... don't imagine that's a typical use case
<knome> Once installed, you should have at least 512 MB of memory.
<knome> bluesabre, my point is, if you try/install with any amount less than the minimum to run, are you really going to add more memory after trying/installing?
<flocculant> personally I'd be for upping that 
<knome> let's take that for the council meeting as well to hear what ochosi has to say
<flocculant> you'd be nuts to do that - you'd add the memory and then think mmm what can I install I couldn't before I guess
<knome> then at least pop those both to the same level at 512MB
<knome> flocculant, exactly
<bluesabre> knome, nope
<flocculant> frankly I think we should be saying 1G 
<flocculant> anyway
<ochosi> i don't have time for a real meeting, but a 5min thing
<knome> that's our recommended
<ochosi> i'm @work atm
<knome> let's do a 5min for the team member stuff then
<knome> here or want to take it privatE?
<knome> (privacy of concerned persons etc)
 * flocculant wanders off till later
<knome> flocculant, hf and ttyl :)
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> about more this week to cover point release
<ochosi> knome: maybe private, but the ppl in question should mostly have received notice previously
<knome> invited you two to a channel
<knome> ochosi, bluesabre: ^
<ochosi> knome: sry, had to leave
<ochosi> i have another 4min window *now*
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> and i'm in said channel (alone)
<knome> no you're not
<jjfrv8> flocculant, +1 to the lock/suspend testing
<flocculant> back
<akxwi-dave> front
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<flocculant> sideways shuffle
<akxwi-dave> old man shuffle.... 
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> mp done for suspend/lock 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: if you've time https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/ubuntu-manual-tests/1656882/+merge/314860
<flocculant> if not it will ping slickymaster :)
<akxwi-dave> :-) approved...
<flocculant> super :)
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: all done - on tracker now
<flocculant> and failed test on tracker too ;)
<akxwi-dave> :-)   must admit, I always forget about  lock/suspend as its the first thing i turn off on any laptop... so never use it
<flocculant> not something I ever do unless someone else says it is broken ...
<flocculant> and if people are running dev but not telling anyone - we don't know
<flocculant> hence grabbing a1fa into here the other day :)
<flocculant> ochosi bluesabre appear to have found the lock culprit
<flocculant> grabbed old lightdm packages and worked through them till it stopped working 
<flocculant> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-locker/+bug/1656399/comments/7
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1656399 in light-locker (Ubuntu) "Unable to unlock Xubuntu XFCE session after suspend." [Undecided,Confirmed]
<flocculant> *appears* to be lightdm this time
<flocculant> bluesabre: I assume you can set the importance on that bug from undecided to something entirely more suitable - like critical or something :p
 * flocculant wonders if it started failing with 1.21.2-0ubuntu1 - the one I can't appear to find 
<flocculant> bluesabre: also robert ancell doesn't appear to be online so I can't ping him - maybe you will see him about later 
<flocculant> caught him in -desktop
<flocculant> should have known he would want lightdm.log
<flocculant> hopefully they'll be able to add whatever broke to regression tests for locking functionality
<flocculant> paraphrasing r_ancell 
#xubuntu-devel 2017-01-17
<a1fa> flocculant: 
<a1fa> yellow
<bluesabre> flocculant, bumped the importance up
<flocculant> bluesabre: cheers :)
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: just so you are aware - .2 has apparently slid a bit - not sure when to atm 
<akxwi-dave> cheers mate
<flocculant> knome: seems oem install fails globally - which I guessed would be the case
<knome> flocculant, yep
<flocculant> I guess the conversation needs to happen at some point - maybe next meeting ...
<knome> ywah
<knome> is that scheduled and if not, who should do that?
<knome> apparently Unit193 
<flocculant> perhaps something to sensibly work towards for 18.04? 
<knome> yes
<flocculant> oem - not Unit193's meeting ...
<knome> well...
#xubuntu-devel 2017-01-18
<Unit193> >_>
<Unit193> <_<
 * Unit193 hides.
<knome> nnoooo
<knome> (:
<Unit193> flocculant: indicator-sound start on startup for you?
<flocculant> Unit193: yep
<Unit193> Figured.
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> Miiiine doesn't. :(
<flocculant> I guessed
<krytarik> "-queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Packageset: Added sgt-launcher to xubuntu in zesty"
<flocculant> and I just got some updates to -games
<bluesabre> evening all
<Unit193> Howdy.
<bluesabre> hi Unit193 
<knome> 'lo
<slickymaster> hey bluesabre 
<slickymaster> Unit193
<bluesabre> hey knome 
<bluesabre> hey slickymaster 
#xubuntu-devel 2017-01-19
<flocculant> I assume people who care read it on the -release m/l - if not then 16.04.2 has been put back till after 17.04 a2
<tracker5> hello all
<knome> ..lo
<Zumerjud> \whois Zumerjud
<genii> wrong slash
#xubuntu-devel 2017-01-20
<knome> pleia2, maybe we should have some kind of team-only page in the wiki about the free stuff we have on stock (stickers, t-shirts)
<knome> pleia2, could also have a page (or the same page) for listing shipping fees you've been paying
<tracker0> HELP
<knome> not within a minute...
<flocculant> bluesabre: bug 1658098 (please note this was not the grinch)
<ubottu> bug 1658098 in sgt-launcher (Ubuntu) "sgt-launcher failed to launch" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1658098
<flocculant> :)
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<flocculant> I remember now why my launcher works ... 
<bluesabre> flocculant, indeed, will be fixing that this weekend
#xubuntu-devel 2017-01-22
<Unit193> bluesabre: Uhh, xfdashy isn't in our packageset: "The signer of this package is lacking the upload rights for the source package, component or package set in question."
<bluesabre> Unit193, I should probably fix that :)
<Unit193> I tried to push a new one, deeeenied.
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: we must try and make sure that someone canonicalish actually is aware that all the lives head straight to desktop
<flocculant> those auto tests are ok - but I'm not convinced they'd see that
<akxwi-dave> deffo , i would have though that someone on their side would know that by now... but hey
<flocculant> yup
<akxwi-dave> who's the best to grab.. Laney?
<flocculant> cypher mox is the one I go to for ubiquity things - mostly just to make sure he knows - he's pretty good at not forgetting too :)
<flocculant> he does idle in here too
<flocculant> helps that it fails in ubuntu too ;)
<akxwi-dave> true... usually see cypher during the week.. so will try and grab him
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: did you catch the e 16.04.2 business this last week? 
<flocculant> eg put back till beginning feb
<akxwi-dave> yup back to feb aint it
<flocculant> cool
<akxwi-dave> nr=ew kernel i belive going into it
<flocculant> mesa and stuff too I think
<akxwi-dave> makes sense to hold back then,,, those are some good things
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> knome: on http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/development.html
<flocculant> is there anyway that we can make the current dev release 'dynamic' ? 
<flocculant> because currently it's 2 cycles out ... 
<flocculant> if not perhaps we should lose that as a link
<flocculant> maybe I'll just reword what we have there - the packageset gets a link to 'the whole lot' later
<flocculant> slickymaster: just so you are aware - I'm checking through the cont docs ... something I chatted with knome about when you were off doing life :)
<flocculant> knome: also building the cont docs here got some warnings and fails - though it all appears to be there *shrug* http://paste.ubuntu.com/23847083/ if anyone wants to check 
<flocculant> knome: also - there are differences between the branch I grabbed and what's at http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/ - what's that about?
<knome> flocculant, updating is manual, that's likely why
<flocculant> knome: okey doke - so branch contains changes not landed yet - couldn't find any reference to changes to it anywhere
<flocculant> nvm - found it now :p
<flocculant> anyway - as is obvious - I'm working through that stuff now
#xubuntu-devel 2018-01-15
<root-boy> whois
<knome> slickymasterWork, do you think you'd like a documentation sprint for 18.04 at some point?
<slickymasterWork> yes, I think that's a good idea
<slickymasterWork> the rest of January will be somewhat frantic for me
<knome> ok, then let's schedule it for february
<slickymasterWork> but we can schedule it to the beginning of February
<slickymasterWork> :)
<knome> yep
<slickymasterWork> there's still the installer also, which is in a pre-draft state
<knome> yes
<knome> i just thought i need to work on that before the sprint
<knome> so we'd have a better basis
<slickymasterWork> you still have that pad we worked on a couple of months ago?
<knome> iirc i have it all in a new branch with new visuals
<knome> it might also be in launchpad, or if not, i'll have it at least locally
<slickymasterWork> right, you did mention that back then
<knome> and the pad should be online too...
<slickymasterWork> https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/xubuntu-1804
<knome> yep
<knome> sounds right
<knome> flocculant, were you able to break anything?
<ochosi> knome: did you give my POC a shot?
<ochosi> i'd rather take the decision wrt gtk-theme-config soonish
<ochosi> don't want to run into a last-minute hackathon situation
<knome> ochosi, realistically i'll have time for that later this week
<flocculant> knome: well - it let me add something - wouldn't let me add things I shouldn't
<flocculant> couldn't vote - didn't even see how
<flocculant> hi ochosi :)
<knome> flocculant, voting is broken for some reason, but you'll find it in the usual admin under contests - hover over the contest you want to vote in and the vote action will show up
<knome> flocculant, there's also this annoying bug that wp wants to show me (at least me) my "own" contests when loading that page, eg. not all contests registered by anyone
<knome> which is likely not a problem for anybody who hasn't registered any contests though..
<flocculant> mmm - seems the only way to login is login to submit
<knome> or go to url/wp-admin/
<flocculant> if when logged in I try to Vew Submissions from the menu - nothing there
<knome> this is semi-intentionally not very visible :)
<knome> right...
<flocculant> if I got to contest - I see the 2 submissions
<knome> then i might know what's happening and it should be trivialish
<knome> but i'll have time later to look at it
<flocculant> hovering over things does nothing for me 
<flocculant> okey doke
<knome> not hovering in the site
<knome> but in the admin
<knome> eg. in domain/wp-admin/
<knome> and then contests from there
<flocculant> aah ok
<knome> hovering over the table rows gives those action links -- voting is there
<knome> (yes i know i need to write instructions for this)
<flocculant> mmm
<knome> good thing is that we can have a direct link to the voting page too
<knome> which also makes you log in if not logged in
<knome> so it's a non-problem
<flocculant> ok - no idea how to get to somewhere to not be able to vote :p
<knome> lol
<flocculant> I'll wait till you've looked later and look again
<knome> i'm again on my phone so can't dig up the link
<flocculant> yup - ok - later :)
<knome> but yes, even if you got there, it'd show a blank page, so fun
<knome> could take some time tomorrow to hack on it
<flocculant> mhm
<knome> unless i decide to sit in the sauna all evening :P
#xubuntu-devel 2018-01-16
<knome> flocculant, ok, figured it out -- we had submitted to a non 
<knome> ...non-test contest
<knome> flocculant, submissions here: https://contest.xubuntu.org/wallpaper_contest/con-test/
<knome> flocculant, viewing them here: https://contest.xubuntu.org/wallpaper_contest/con-test/?action=view
<knome> flocculant, and find voting at https://contest.xubuntu.org/wp-admin/edit.php?post_type=wallpaper_contest -- hover over the "con/test" row and you'll see a "vote" link appear
<knome> flocculant, the link has a nonce so i can't paste you one that works directly
<flocculant> knome: going to contest/wp-admin - no contest thing there that I can see
<flocculant> I don't really understand why we have to make exerything so complicated every time we want to do something :(
<knome> flocculant, in the left menu under comments?
<knome> it's also possible it isn't visible for you...
<knome> i need to double-check
<flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/nAl6oim.png
<flocculant> at https://contest.xubuntu.org/wp-admin/edit-comments.php
<flocculant> logged in as xubuntu-team via sso
<knome> i mean under comments...
<knome> visually under :)
<knome> but ok, you can't see that
<knome> i'll fix it
<knome> once i figure out the "right" way to do it
<flocculant> I've been bleating on about us doing this contest for months
<knome> i think i'll just give editors edit rights
<flocculant> now when we want to actually run the thing - we can't 
<knome> can you do a hard refresh and see if the menu pops up?
<flocculant> yea it does
<knome> this is a trivial issue, it's not something that blocks everything
<knome> this is why i needed this testing
<flocculant> ok - able to vote
<knome> to smooth out the small bumps
<flocculant> knome: this might be a trivial thing - but we've been talking about this for ages 
<knome> ok, just to double-check -- where you see "vote", you don't see "vote results", right?
<flocculant> what I'm finding not trivial is how we ALWATS leave things until the last minute
<flocculant> :(
<flocculant> nope - not seeing vote results
<knome> i'm not being paid to do this, that's why
<flocculant> sigh
<knome> good - you shouldn't :)
<flocculant> I know that
<flocculant> neither am I
<knome> i know you know, but that's the reason
<flocculant> neither is anyone
<flocculant> but everything everytime is like this
<knome> there are other things that are of more priority, whether we like it or not
<knome> indeed it is always like this
<flocculant> knome: re vote
<knome> yes
<flocculant> are the plus/minus supposed to be 'greyed out' - not grey obviously
<knome> yes, until you vote
<flocculant> I'd expect that to happen the other way round lol
<flocculant> but yup - it did it
<knome> hmm, right
<flocculant> changing vote works
<knome> i guess it could be the other way too
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> not that important ...
<knome> yep
<knome> it's css thought so again it's tricial
<knome> trivial too
<knome> fixing other small things atm
<flocculant> just to me it appears that 'not a thing I can do' 
<knome> right
<knome> wow, that's ugly code :)
<flocculant> nothing to do with me lol
<knome> nope :P
<knome> i'll fix that code and make the buttons work a different way
<knome> i mean, technically the same but visually different
<flocculant> mhm
<knome> things will be awkwar for a while
<flocculant> not too bothered by it - just threw me (I think it threw me last time too) but I'll be ok :p
<knome> flocculant, better?
<flocculant> knome: that makes more sense - at least to me :p
<knome> i'm fine with this so, good
<flocculant> ok :)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-01-17
<bluesabre> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~menulibre-dev/menulibre/master/revision/476 introduces headerbar/toolbar options and makes menulibre use a toolbar layout in xfce by default
<Unit193> \o/
#xubuntu-devel 2018-01-18
<bluesabre> Finally. https://bluesabre.org/2018/01/18/menulibre-2-1-4-released/
<knome> :)
<knome> bluesabre, you don't mention where string can be translated :)
<knome> obviously i know that but...
<knome> bluesabre, i'm still confused how ThisEntry should be translated...
<knome> bluesabre, or let's put it this way - is it something in some menu speicification, or is it made up by you?
<knome> !team | i need a few more testers for the contest site, ping me if you have some time this week
<ubottu> i need a few more testers for the contest site, ping me if you have some time this week: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<flocculant> knome: you need me to test again - anything changed?
<flocculant> or am I already done it - can someone else :p
<knome> flocculant, latter :)
<flocculant> eggselent :)
<tracker4> Hello!
<flocculant> that was quick ...
<flocculant> I'm a bit lost as to lp and bionic atm - anyone using bionic and getting updates (other than ppa) ?
<Unit193> flocculant: I'm on bionic, though not the .14 kernel as that does bad things for me.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-01-19
<flocculant> Unit193: ok - but no updates?
<flocculant> not sure if I broke something or lp :D
<Unit193> Well I thought there were some besides mine..
<flocculant> a couple of odd things - not what I'd expect ~'00s Mb per week
<Unit193> flocculant: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+builds?build_text=&build_state=pending
<flocculant> if I read that - nothing foro amd64 or i386 is building?
<flocculant> thinking about it - wasted your time :( diff's between manifests aren't showing much change either
<flocculant> knome: re your comment on the dev list to the 32 bit user ... bug 1744357
<ubottu> bug 1744357 in syslinux (Ubuntu) "Bionic 32 bit iso fails to boot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1744357
<flocculant> Unit193: is your bionic 32 bit core up to date(ish)? current 32 bit bionic isos are all dead in the water (or the ones I've tested)
<flocculant> biab - a short bit probably
<flocculant> if it's possible to do - would be interesting (for me at least) to see if an updated core worked
<flocculant> obviously possible - I meant without losing the one we have around that does boot :p
<flocculant> bluesabre ochosi - just so you know, there's a lightdm update kicking about in -proposed
<Unit193> They're tests, no point keeping the older ones.
<Unit193> Oh, in -release you say VMs don't hit this...Well then..
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 18.04 - i386 - i386 built.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 18.04 - amd64 - amd64 built.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-01-20
<flocculant> Unit193: where are they hiding ?
<Unit193> flocculant: Uhh...In the build dir. >_>
<flocculant> no idea where that is then - all I have is http://unit193.net/xubuntu/core/pending/
<Unit193> They're now there.
<flocculant> Unit193: thanks - all checked on hardware - all fail ... 
<Unit193> That...Doesn't sound good.
<flocculant> Unit193: nope - same as all the 32 bit iso's I reported
<flocculant> and same as the other ones - works in a vm
<Unit193> Still though...And I need to figure out how to get the keyboard working for grub too, would make things possible to boot test at least.
<knome> flocculant, fun
<slickymaster> Unit193, can confirm core working in a VM
<slickymaster> will try now on the Asus EeePC
<flocculant> knome: yup - loads ...
<flocculant> slickymaster: thanks btw :)
<slickymaster> sure flocculant, np :)
<flocculant> slickymaster: did core boot on the eepc?
<slickymaster> haven't done it yet flocculant 
<slickymaster> is almost lunch time and I started preparing it
<slickymaster> will do it after lunch
<flocculant> oh right - better option right there :D
<slickymaster> lol
<slickymaster> even because little one is, like always, hungry
<slickymaster> yeaps, 20-01-2017 core image doesn't boot in hardware, Unit193 
<slickymaster> error msg -> Failed to load ldlinux.c32
<slickymaster> flocculant ^^^
<slickymaster> well, that's my fault actually
<slickymaster> trying to boot a 64 bit image in a 32 bit CPU :P
<slickymaster> no issues with the i386 core image, Unit193 
<slickymaster> installed and booted without any problems
<slickymaster> inxi output from the Eee PC -> https://paste.ubuntu.com/26424369/
<slickymaster> flocculant ^^^
<flocculant> slickymaster: ok cool thanks for that
<flocculant> so looks like 64 bit machine having trouble booting 32 bit iso
<slickymaster> I don't have a spare 64bit CPU to test it on
<flocculant> no problem 
<slickymaster> in VMware it all went smoothly
<flocculant> yea - same here
<flocculant> well on vbox and kvm/qemu at least
<slickymaster> with the 32 bit image all I had to do was to add the nomodeset flag
<slickymaster> first boot went into a black screen but that was expected
<slickymaster> the Eee Pc is way old
<flocculant> mhm
<flocculant> if this is some '32 bit iso on some 64 bit machines' issue - then 2 things occur, 1 - I can't test 32 bit (\o/) 2 - not something I'd worry too much about
<slickymaster> lol in all cases you're off the hook :P
 * flocculant leaves this issue now until I see something interesting from infinity :p
<flocculant> if nothing else tyhe user in #u+1 who's been helping me today can get Xubuntu 32 bit iso to boot on their 64 bit - no idea about other flavours - but not really our problem there
<flocculant> and none of them have bothered joining in 
<flocculant> bluesabre might want to be aware of this thing hanging about though
<slickymaster> yes
<VolK> Will this distro let me run a xmr cpu miner?
<krytarik> VolK: The support channel is #xubuntu, or in fact for this even better #ubuntu.
<VolK> thanks!
#xubuntu-devel 2018-01-21
<Unit193> flocculant: So I have a tester that communicates via email, he tests core.  You want his future messages to -devel?
<flocculant> Unit193: you could do - if they're interesting :)
<Unit193> He asked where would be better going forward.
<flocculant> oh right - well I guess so then :)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-01-14
<knome> flocculant, no problem of course ;)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: - remove pbuilder, sbuild is good enough for main @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=3862bf3c1c32509d84ac2f17d51d57d102e64ff6 (by Matthias Klose)
<JackFrost> :'(
<JackFrost> (Oh well, I backport interesting versions anyway.)
<bluesabre> :(
<pleia2> there is this Subject: Xubuntu daily CD health check
<pleia2> being sent to the devel list every day, and stuck in moderation, do we want this?
<pleia2> I manually let one through the other day
<JackFrost> We should likely fix that.
<pleia2> yeah, I think it's only sent when there's a "problem"
<pleia2> but depending on the timeline, seeing an oversized warning every day may not be the most useful thing
<JackFrost> Yeah most certainly not..
#xubuntu-devel 2019-01-15
<pragomer> I would like to suggest a little change for next xubuntu release that is, in my opinion, just a so so little tweak, that would address to many people: 1st thing I always to on xubuntu fresh install (and I do a lot of them) is to download the portable binary (just one file) version of "ksuperkey", copy it to /home/myuser/.autostart and put it to autostarted programs.
<pragomer> then I associate alt-f1 to whiskermenu, so that I can open whiskermenu with just the super key and additionally set super+e to open thunar. 
<pragomer> thats it. In my opinion this really should be the default. I am pretty sure many people could see this controverse, but in the end I think more people would like this...
<pragomer> and its kind of "zero effort" to build this into xubuntu
<pragomer> kind regards
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-sensors-plugin 1.3.92 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-sensors-plugin-1-3-92-released-tp52456.html (by Fabian Nowak)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-01-17
<sheershoff> Hello people, I want to ask for a default settings choosing, specifically for binding a default of Shift+PrtScn for running the `xfce-screenshooter -r`. What do you think of it? There are no default conflicting shortcuts. Can anyone evaluate and/or implement or give me directions on how to make it default in the releases?
<knome> bluesabre, JackFrost: thoughts? ^
<knome> sheershoff, if those two do not reply in timely manner, the best thing to do would be to start a discussion on the developers mailing list
<brainwash> sheershoff: or you can open a new report https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings
<sheershoff> Thank you, I've opened a report there.
<Spass> hi, that's probably a know bug, but adding "export GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS=1" line to "56xubuntu-session" (to fix that nasty Xorg 0x0 bug) breaks Plank
<Spass> it crashes when I want to move some item on the deck
<Spass> works fine without that line added
<Spass> this is what running Plank in a terminal tells about that crash - https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/XnwdwSjsNm/
<Spass> Xubuntu 18.04, Plank from the repo (0.11.4-2)
<Spass> I'll try with version 0.11.4-4 from Disco later
<Spass> not sure if you even consider that workaround to be included in Disco as default
<brainwash> Spass: it will be set per application, not globally
<Spass> ah, ok, so that's not an issue then
<brainwash> so, only for xfce4-panel and xfce4-settings-manager (scrolling issue)
<Spass> I mean, it's an issue for me now on LTS :)
<brainwash> I don't know if LTS will be touched
<Spass> ok, I need to choose which bug (0x0 or Plank) is less annoying for now, but I'll probably live with Plank crashing, I just need to set it as I want once and block items
<Spass> anyway, thanks for the answer
<brainwash> you could make a wrapper script for xfce4-panel
<brainwash> and in that script set the env var
<brainwash> or unset it for plank
<Spass> ok, so I have some options, in that case not a big deal
<JackFrost>  Still not great, but trying to pick the least bad option.  Favoring seeded applications makes sense, but on the other hand Plank crashes and the other bug isn't a crashing bug.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-01-18
<brainwash> ochosi: you've worked on display settings quite a lot, so maybe you could look into bug 1665048
<ubottu> bug 1665048 in xfce4-settings "xfce4-display-settings crashed with SIGSEGV in convert_xfce_output_info()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1665048
<brainwash> one of those bugs which generated many crash report
<brainwash> reports
<ochosi> brainwash: but that seems to be a virtualbox-only bug
<brainwash> ochosi: correct
<ochosi> and also from ali1234's description it feels like it's quite a corner case
<ochosi> but yeah, i guess it'd be worth fixing if many ppl report it
<ochosi> just quite busy these days
<brainwash> it's something that people do often I guess
<brainwash> changing the resolution while in vbox I mean
<bluesabre> evening all
<ochosi> hi bluesabre, what's up?
<bluesabre> hey ochosi, just getting back into the swing of things
<ochosi> cool, good to hear :)
<bluesabre> wife at a conference for a week, so it's code time :)
<ochosi> i'm a little out-of-swing atm myself
<ochosi> haha, nice
<ochosi> so what're you up to?
<bluesabre> currently eating, then probably going to tackle some bugs that don't sound horrible
<ochosi> hehe, alrighty
<bluesabre> got anything high prio you want me to take a look at?
<ochosi> hmm, there was a bug somewhere in the display settings 
<ochosi> but i probably caused that myself
<ochosi> need to check which one it was...
<ochosi> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14887
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 14887 in Display Settings "Display settings broken in Git" [Normal,Needinfo]
<ochosi> i haven't been able to reproduce
<ochosi> but the report sounds plausible
<bluesabre> oh wow
<bluesabre> that looks... difficult
<JackFrost> bluesabre: There's a daily ISO size email we're getting, that'd likely be nice to kill.
<bluesabre> JackFrost: don't think I've seen that one... what's the subject?
<ochosi> anyway, gotta get some sleep
<ochosi> happy coding time, bluesabre!
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi
<ochosi> and night everyone
<JackFrost> Xubuntu daily CD health check, there's 7 more sitting in the queue.
<bluesabre> interestingly, not seeing it in any of my inboxes
<JackFrost> bluesabre: There, just approved one for you.
<bluesabre> neat
#xubuntu-devel 2019-01-19
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin 2.3.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin-2-3-1-released-tp52489.html (by Graeme Gott)
<tko1977> thank god for gtk and gtk-primary-button-warps-slider = false
<tko1977> i was starting to get tired of lack of that functionality under KWin--glad I switched
<tko1977> they should have radio button settings for left button mouse click (and others) incorporated in preferences. I guess the devs have to want to do that..
<tko1977> i need to do some more research about it
#xubuntu-devel 2020-01-13
<JackFrost> bluesabre: Debian #889019
<ubottu> Debian bug 889019 in gnome-doc-utils "gnome-doc-utils: is deprecated" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/889019
<bluesabre> JackFrost: oh wow. Does that affect us?
<JackFrost> xubuntu-docs, sooo...
<bluesabre> aha
<JackFrost> Hellos.
<bluesabre> hiiii
<JackFrost> I'm not sure what one is supposed to use for translations now.
<JackFrost> poxml is a thing, a KDE thing.  It'd be a little awkward and very funny to use that.
<bluesabre> Is that the main thing we use gnome-doc-utils for, or is it deeper-level than that?
<JackFrost> I think.  But that's...The translations. :P
<JackFrost> Then again, IIRC all the docbook stuff is orphaned.
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> I guess what I'm trying to determine is if we need to migrate to something else
<JackFrost> gnome-doc-utils is in the process of being removed, but I think docbook is safe, for now.
<JackFrost> Last release 2016.
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is Liaison:
<ochosi> JackFrost: please change your nick to "Liaison" :D
<JackFrost> Haha! :D
#xubuntu-devel 2020-01-14
<franksmcb> is this the best spot for QA stuff?
<ochosi> i guess so
<ochosi> at least i don't think we ever established another spot
<franksmcb> Copy that
<JackFrost> This is the channel for Xubuntu development of all sorts, so unless it's a generic Ubuntu ISO testing question (as we may not know), yep!
<franksmcb> On that note. A do-release-upgrade -d on a 19.10 bare metal install worked perfectly. 
<JackFrost> Note for generic support there is #ubuntu+1, but of course that's just for support (or sometimes announcements of "foo broke in todays upload, awesome")
<franksmcb> Most of you don't know me. I do a little stuff for Wimpy on the Ubuntu MATE team, trying to throw a few spare cycles to y'all.
<ochosi> franksmcb: great, much appreciated
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.14.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-4-14-3-released-tp57054.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfdesktop 4.14.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfdesktop-4-14-2-released-tp57057.html (by Andre Miranda)
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4ui 4.15.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4ui-4-15-1-released-tp57066.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4util 4.15.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4util-4-15-0-released-tp57067.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-settings 4.15.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-settings-4-15-0-released-tp57070.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.15.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-4-15-1-released-tp57072.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-01-15
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: catfish 1.4.13 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-catfish-1-4-13-released-tp57088.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> JackFrost: https://salsa.debian.org/python-team/applications/catfish should now be buildable and uploadable, in case you're interested :)
<bluesabre> JackFrost: I also pinged jbicha to see if he wants to handle the greybird merge/upload
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel-profiles 1.0.10 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-profiles-1-0-10-released-tp57090.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<JackFrost> bluesabre: Free to commit the change and tag!
<smkellat> LP Bug #1859747 is just plain old frustrating
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1859747 in nautilus-dropbox (Ubuntu) "Daemon repeatedly requires installation on boot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1859747
<JackFrost> I run new nautilus-dropbox, but never hit that.
<JackFrost> 2019.02.14-0vanir1 is what I use.
<JackFrost> smkellat: FYI, I don't think anyone on LP is likely to review the bug.
<bluesabre> Thanks JackFrost!
<bluesabre> brainwash: nope
<bluesabre> A little concerning a client app can kill the window manager
<bluesabre> brainwash: is this with the newest catfish with CSD dialogs?
<bluesabre> And, do you have anything like gtk3-nocsd loaded?
<brainwash> bluesabre: no extra gtk modules
<brainwash> bluesabre: xubuntu 20.04, catfish from today
<brainwash> I don't know if this is something new or not
<brainwash> so, the About and the Preferences dialogs both use CSD even when disable in the catfish settings?
<brainwash> installed version 1.4.10 from eoan: dialogs now don't use CSD and they don't trigger the xfwm4 crash on close!
<brainwash> https://git.xfce.org/apps/catfish/commit/?id=ce956719b85bd1514ab922adb85e4f0193539a70
<brainwash> bluesabre: does not happen after enabling the compositor
<brainwash> this was only tested with vbox, so it may have something to do with the graphics driver or mode
<flocculant> JackFrost: anything worth the effort in ppa's yet? Upgraded to focal with no issue
<JackFrost> flocculant: Not really, just panel and libxfce4ui.
 * boosabre waves
<boosabre> irccloud is down D:
<JackFrost> So I'm guessing you just did an...Ah.
<JackFrost> I mean you're still here.
<boosabre> Indeed
<boosabre> So I guess their backend is still up
<boosabre> kiwi irc is pleasant
<boosabre> I bit too much padding
<boosabre> *a
<JackFrost> So, got anything else nice pending? :3
<JackFrost> Oh! [12:55:50] < jarnos> Any comments? https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15945#c6
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 15945 in General "xfce4-screensaver-command --lock returns exit code 0 on failure" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<boosabre> Started working through the xfce4-screensaver bugs this morning
<boosabre> Still plenty more to do there :)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-01-16
<JackFrost> boosabre: And IRCCloud seems to have just reset something.
<bluesabre> Sure enough!
<bluesabre> Later boosabre
<bluesabre> brainwash: please log a bug for xfwm with your findings
<bluesabre> JackFrost: commented on that screensaver bug, thanks
<JackFrost> You're doing all the hard work. :3
<JackFrost> We need boosabre back.
<astraljava> Hey folks, I was just told that on support channel that light-locker is not even in development anymore. What is the reasoning it's the default choice, still? Just no better alternative available? :D
<astraljava> Nevermind, I have not waken up, yet, apparently. Need More Coffeeâ¢
<JackFrost> xfce4-screensaver! ++
<ochosi> astraljava: that's not really accurate. it's maintained by and default in elementaryOS
<ochosi> it's true that neither me nor peter are activr anymore in the project
<astraljava> ochosi: Ok, thanks for the clarification.
<astraljava> JackFrost: Yes, I noticed that's what I actually use on my machine. Now to figure out why it randomly locks my session without user action.
<brainwash> bluesabre: you still don't see the bug? have an up-to-date xubuntu 20.04 and start the session with the compositor being disabled.
<bluesabre> brainwash: didn't check yet... I just don't use the session without the compositor which is why I would have overlooked it.
<brainwash> if it really is a vbox driver bug... then reporting against xfwm4 won't help much I guess
<brainwash> I will test with something like openbox too
<bluesabre> I'll test it in qemu/kvm
<bluesabre> Definitely doesn't seem to be the case in 19.10 on hardware after just turning the compositor off
<brainwash> you have to restart the session
<bluesabre> vbox has been pretty unstable for quite a while now :\
<bluesabre> Alrighty, I can restart my session now, bbiab
<bluesabre> brainwash: sure enough, it crashes it on hardware as well after the session is restarted
<bluesabre> turning the compositor back on resolves it, so it's an Xfwm bug
<brainwash> I tried with openbox, no crash
<brainwash> will open a report then
<bluesabre> thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2020-01-17
<JackFrost> andrzejr: While perhaps a bit terse, thanks for the mail to -dev.  I'm glad I'm not the only one. :/
<bluesabre> It is a bit harder to make it optional. Things like dialogs have to be CSD'd when they're initialized, meaning to have them switchable with glade you have to have both wrappers and repack them.
<bluesabre> JackFrost: going to do an ubuntu upload for greybird since it's unknown how long debian will take
<JackFrost> OK.
<JackFrost> Poked someone else in the team for you, see if I can't get something flowing...
#xubuntu-devel 2020-01-18
-BottyMcBotFace:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin 2.3.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin-2-3-5-released-tp57131.html (by Graeme Gott)
<JackFrost> bluesabre: I handled 932867 for you. :D
#xubuntu-devel 2020-01-19
<bluesabre> lp 932867
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932867 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "creation of flavors with name of a deleted flavor is not possible" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932867
<bluesabre> debian 932867
<ubottu> Debian bug 932867 in mugshot "mugshot: not in Buster" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/932867
<bluesabre> JackFrost: thanks
<JackFrost> I mean you handle the LP bugs, soo. :3
