#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h 2012-05-07
<dylan-m> This session was removed from summit.ubuntu.com, so if you're wondering where the pad has gone, it's over here: http://etherpad.ubuntu.com/uds-q-the-ubuntu-ecosystem-part-1
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track: Security | AppArmor testing | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20579/security-q-apparmor-testing/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-h/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h.log
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track: Hardware | Test Drive Different Tablet UIs - User Experiences | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20450/hardware-q-tablet-test-drive/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
<daker> uds-gb-h: what's happening ?
<daker> useless session :/
<bmoez> i have a question (just about meego UI) : meego is discontinued or not?
<komputes> bmoez: Working state 	Discontinued
<komputes> bmoez: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo
<bmoez> testing meego UI means that its UI may be implemented particialy  in  ubuntu-tablet (unity-tablet)?
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track: Security | AppArmor development and integration | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20578/security-q-apparmor-dev/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
<kees> hi
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track: Security | AppArmor development | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20578/security-q-apparmor-dev/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h 2012-05-08
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track:  | What exactly is juju anyway? | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20754/what-exactly-is-juju-anyway/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> everybody knows Al Gore invented the cloud
<SpamapS>  _________________________________________
<SpamapS> / I typed juju deploy wordpress and all I \
<SpamapS> \ got was this burning sheep              /
<SpamapS>  -----------------------------------------
<SpamapS>   \            .    .     .
<SpamapS>    \      .  . .     `  ,
<SpamapS>     \    .; .  : .' :  :  : .
<SpamapS>      \   i..`: i` i.i.,i  i .
<SpamapS>       \   `,--.|i |i|ii|ii|i:
<SpamapS>            UooU\.'@@@@@@`.||'
<SpamapS>            \__/(@@@@@@@@@@)'
<SpamapS>                 (@@@@@@@@)
<SpamapS>                 `YY~~~~YY'
<SpamapS>                  ||    ||
<SpamapS> chroot + network and pid namespacing
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> juju set mysql dataset-size=xxxG  tunes it for your dataset
<SpamapS> juju set mysql tuning-level=fast  <--- removes the brakes from the car
<SpamapS> the charm *could* lock to a single version
<SpamapS> IMO, charms *should* lock to a version in most cases, but this is not a universally held belief. :)
<SpamapS> remove-unit always removes an explicit unit
<SpamapS> common feature request:  juju remove-unit x/4 --terminate-machine
<SpamapS> 8 charms for core openstack
<SpamapS> mysql, rabbit, nova-cc, nova-compute, glance, swift, swift proxy, keystone
<SpamapS> Suggests: apt-cacher-ng, lxc, libvirt-bin, zookeeper
<txwikinger> Can you use juju on trystack.org?
<SpamapS> zookeeper == java
<SpamapS> txwikinger: that should work if trystack has S3 exposed
<txwikinger> I have not figured that out yet
<txwikinger> how do I configure juju for it?
<SpamapS> There is but its haacky
<SpamapS> yes, but you won't be able to use juju after that
<SpamapS> no you can't shut it down because its address will change
<SpamapS> each node gets the address of node 0 stored as a configuration
<SpamapS> thats just an implementation detail .. we could make the bootstrap node discoverable by other means.
<SpamapS> \o/ subway good!
<SpamapS> I am!
<SpamapS> unless I dreamed it ;)
<SpamapS> yes, we'd have to put that charm in a different charm store though
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<SpamapS> If you guys come up with a charm that can only run on Solaris or BSD or something.. come talk to us, I want to see that and will help get that integrated w/ the charm store. :)
<SpamapS> s3 is not properly abstracted for charms yet
<SpamapS> planned feature for the future
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<SpamapS> it does have the abstraction in the provider
<SpamapS> but there's no charm tool to access it
<SpamapS> official images only please!
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<SpamapS> Cheers folks!
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: This session has ended.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-h/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h.log
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track: Foundations | Detail and begin the arm64/aarch64 port in Ubuntu | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20330/foundations-q-aarch64-porting/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
<suihkulokki> hello everyone :)
<SteveMcIntyre> hey folks
<shirgall> ä½ å¥½
<suihkulokki> come closer to microphones, folk :)
<SteveMcIntyre> yes
<shirgall> better
<suihkulokki> better yes
<shirgall> still not hearing any 64-bit long words :)
<rsalveti> SteveMcIntyre: are you able to do a hard ping on wookey?
<rsalveti> :-)
<SteveMcIntyre> rsalveti: I'll go look for him
<wookey_> hello
<wookey_> schedule moved :-)
<wookey_> I can't hear yet
<shirgall> wookey_: they want to know if the port is done yet?
<wookey_> Not quite :-)
<SteveMcIntyre> wookey_ had headphones on, dunno if he was actually connected to the audio
<shirgall> wookey_: So, Friday then?
<wookey_> OK. I'm here
<SteveMcIntyre> wookey_: see the audio link in the topic!
<chihchun_> can anyone share the link?
<rsalveti> http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/precise/sbuild-ma/status.html
<wookey_> people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/quantal/sbuild-ma/status.html
<chihchun_> thanks
<wookey_> status is very broken right now
<wookey_> as libc doesn't seem to want to install
<wookey_> yes we do
<wookey_> sorry arm does, linaro doesn't
<wookey_> And that toolchain is hacked from a bninary build
<wookey_> sorry what ricardo?
<SteveMcIntyre> it builds, but a lot of the patches need fixing for newer gcc
<rsalveti> wookey_: the results of the cross buildd based on the new toolchain from arm
<doko> can we get agreement about the multiarch triplet now?
<SteveMcIntyre> doko: heh :-)
<SteveMcIntyre> correct, no qemu for a while
<SteveMcIntyre> there will be "issues" with adding support there
<med_> who's providing the QEMU?
<wookey_> no qemu means we need different cross-fixes for some things than on a qemu-having arch
<wookey_> yes
<wookey_> not at the moment, no
<suihkulokki> is there some plan to work on qemu?
<wookey_> main blockers are multiarchy deps for perl, python
<SteveMcIntyre> suihkulokki: not that I know of, yet
<rsalveti> suihkulokki: we'll have at linaro, but I believe it's probably something to start at Q4
<SteveMcIntyre> arm64 is favourite, I think
 * SteveMcIntyre nods infinity
<wookey_> wookey nods too :-)
<doko> wookey_, multiarchy deps?
<wookey_> arm is using multiarch paths for linker and libs on internal toolchain, they are changing to linker in /lib and libs in /lib64
<doko> SteveMcIntyre, favourite for what? gnu triplet, multiarch triplet?
<SteveMcIntyre> doko: for the Debian/Ubuntu arch name
<SteveMcIntyre> cjwatson: it's still an open question
<wookey_> colin we need to argue upstream about that if we care
<doko> SteveMcIntyre, and the gnu triplet is already defined?
<SteveMcIntyre> the upstream glibc folks will whinge *again* if we try to push m-a
<ramana> gnu triplet is already decided and upstream (aarch64-linux-gnu )
<SteveMcIntyre> doko: yes
<SteveMcIntyre> doko: aarch64-linux-gnu
<doko> and this should be used foe the multiarch triplet too? looks a bit "generic"
<wookey_> what happens on an amd64/aarch64 machine? what is /lib64 symlinked to?
<SteveMcIntyre> the clear thing we have at least from the armhf mess is that we can have ld.so in /lib
<SteveMcIntyre> as /lib/ld-linux-aarch64.so.X IIRC?
<SteveMcIntyre> ramana: ?
<ramana> SteveMcIntyre, the GNU triplet is already upstream isn't it ?
<wookey_> ah. OK
<SteveMcIntyre> ramana: yes, the triplet is
<SteveMcIntyre> ramana: have we specced the linker name?
<SteveMcIntyre> we have a lot of cross-build fixes already
<SteveMcIntyre> but there's issues with getting them pushed upstream from within ARM :-(
<wookey_> I have a big list of fixes and effort estimates
<wookey_> 10% is aarch64. 50% is multiarch deps, 40% is assorted crossbuild
<ramana> SteveMcIntyre, probably worth talking to marcus about. I haven't followed all those developments recently.
<SteveMcIntyre> cjwatson: yes, agreed
<SteveMcIntyre> this is a reason why wookey_ has got involved
<wookey_> infinity yes, the prblem is that the best set of patches is ARMs and they won't let it out directly yet
<wookey_> but I can still give you a summary
<SteveMcIntyre> Peter was very good at coming up with patches, but not pushing them upstream
<SteveMcIntyre> so a number of them rotted :-/
<cjwatson> And what happened then was that the packaging moved on so they became irrelevant or unmergeable
<SteveMcIntyre> yes
<cjwatson> There were several cases near the end of precise where there was a patch somewhere but it didn't make sense any more so I just did it again from scratch
<SteveMcIntyre> ack
<wookey_> Where is the right venue to disucss crossfixes?
<SteveMcIntyre> doko: you're quite quiet?
<doko> SteveMcIntyre, as always ;)
<wookey_> I sometimes need to ask and it's not obvious where...
<cjwatson> any regular Ubuntu development channels are fine
<cjwatson> #ubuntu-devel etc.
<suihkulokki> many of the old cross-building patches are not quite valid in the multiarch world anymore
<doko> SteveMcIntyre, just want to differentiate between cross build failure and package-needs-porting
<SteveMcIntyre> yeah
<cjwatson> Right
<wookey_> the list is natty-based yes, but modified to include all that are fixed upstream
<wookey_> and some pat bugs
<wookey_> apt
<wookey_> some are still OK
<wookey_> but yes some are mostly useless
<SteveMcIntyre> then there's still some *nasty* ones
<SteveMcIntyre> perl \o/
<cjwatson> cross-building perl isn't that hard, but making it multiarch-useful is
<cjwatson> ditto python
<SteveMcIntyre> ack
<cjwatson> because a lot of that is defining rules for extensions
<cjwatson> (where by "isn't that hard" I mean relative to the usual difficulty of building perl and python :-) )
<wookey_> I am maintaining public status of issues here: https://wiki.linaro.org/Platform/DevPlatform/CrossCompile/MultiarchCrossBuildStatus
<doko> working on python3.3 cross buildability. one more reason to switch to 3.3 ;)
<SteveMcIntyre> cjwatson: *grin*
<SteveMcIntyre> who's the perl maint in Ubuntu?
<cjwatson> we keep it synced from Debian
<SteveMcIntyre> I had a 5.12.x patch that worked, but would need m-a tweaks
<doko> SteveMcIntyre, we only have a last upoader ...
<cjwatson> so we don't have one
<wookey_> (by hand, so often a few days out of date)
<SteveMcIntyre> then 5.14.x happened before it was accepted
<cjwatson> I'm happy to act as a stunt perl maintainer
<SteveMcIntyre> we'd need to work on 5.14.x and 5.16.x and get upstream to play too, ideally
<suihkulokki> I guess this cross-build perl/python modules is a thing to do at linaro connect
<SteveMcIntyre> cjwatson: well volunteered :-)
 * doko turns on the camera ...
<wookey_> agreed
<suihkulokki> so we can move back to aarch64 specific issues here
<wookey_> The automatic build will be definitive
<wookey_> but it's good for things like 'this apt bug breaksa thes 8 builds'
<wookey_> We need agreement on the staged build/bootstrap stuff too
<wookey_> to get it into dpkg/apt
<cjwatson> I'm not sure we do
<cjwatson> That's good for automatic bootstrapping, but it wouldn't be the end of the world to have some manual work involved in a handful of packages
<cjwatson> it's still massively better than anything we had before
<wookey_> true - depends if you want to bootstrap more than once
<wookey_> which you do until there is some hardware...
<wookey_> compiler bugs is one thing yes
<doko> wookey_, well, the final bootstrap will be a native one anyway (the one where packages hit the archive)
<wookey_> true
<SteveMcIntyre> they're different, but the staged bootstrap helps both ways
<wookey_> arm want to keep bootstapping due to toolchain issues
<SteveMcIntyre> cjwatson: yes
<SteveMcIntyre> we just need it to be pushed and working
<wookey_> cjwatson: yes, but dpkg people want some evidence we are agreed
<SteveMcIntyre> and then fix the issues when they arrive
<wookey_> before putting it in
<SteveMcIntyre> wookey_: who?
<wookey_> There are bugs filed:
<wookey_> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=661538
<udsbotu> Debian bug 661538 in dpkg-dev "Add support for Build-Depends-Stage1 in order to allow breaking of cyclic Build-depends loops" [Wishlist,Open]
<wookey_> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=661537
<udsbotu> Debian bug 661537 in apt "Support for staged/bootstrap builds to break cyclic build-dependencies" [Wishlist,Open]
<wookey_> so eveyone pile in and say 'yes it's a good idea'
 * SteveMcIntyre nods infinity again
<SteveMcIntyre> it's up to the people *using* this to say what's needed
<wookey_> OK
<SteveMcIntyre> wookey_: any other patches?
<SteveMcIntyre> e.g. sbuild and friends?
<wookey_> OK I have a pyhton-debian patch
<wookey_> and there is an xdeb
<wookey_> just to recognise extra fields IIRC
<SteveMcIntyre> and python-apt?
<wookey_> well yes xdeb is mostly supeceded
<wookey_> but there is a patch for people still using it
<SteveMcIntyre> didn't catch that...?
<wookey_> On toolchains we need to do gcc/glibc/libffi/binutils/gdb packaging
<cjwatson> That's #669250?
<wookey_> cjwatson: yes
<SteveMcIntyre> we have a kernel for aarch64 inside ARM, yes
<SteveMcIntyre> review is ongoing, will go public soon
<SteveMcIntyre> pass :-)
<wookey_> I did it once for maverick-vintage toolchain
<SteveMcIntyre> rsalveti: yes
<wookey_> arm lawyers are huge impediment to getting anything done
<wookey_> an 'IP based business' finds contributing very difficult
<wookey_> I have a half-arsed patch for adding aarch64 to toolchain packaging
<SteveMcIntyre> it's all gone quiet...
<wookey_> should I just send it to doko to update for current?
<wookey_> Is someone going to add arm64/aarch64 line to dpkg?
<SteveMcIntyre> multi-assed?
<wookey_> hrw: OK
<wookey_> it's a  one-line patch :-)
<wookey_> cjwatson: it's alkmim's first patch so may not be perfect. It looked approx OK to me.
<cjwatson> yep, I shall ponder it
<doko> SteveMcIntyre, could you add the multiarch triplet to http://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/Tuples ?
<cjwatson> it obviously requires patched dpkg
<SteveMcIntyre> doko: yes, will do
<SteveMcIntyre> please add an action for that for me
<wookey_> So are we bootstrapping in debian or ubuntu first?
<SteveMcIntyre> wookey_: yes
<SteveMcIntyre> </pred>
<SteveMcIntyre> infinity: I'm doing it *now* already
<wookey_> planning to get it working this cycle?
<SteveMcIntyre> we'll end up bootstrapping a few times anyway, I expect
<rsalveti> wookey_: yup :-)
<SteveMcIntyre> releasing before hw will be hard
<SteveMcIntyre> infinity: compared to older models, they *are* fast
<SteveMcIntyre> believe me!
<SteveMcIntyre> imagine a few tens of MHz type of level
<SteveMcIntyre> fast enough to run things, but not something you'd want to build on it...
<wookey_> Oh yes - There is an alternate reduced packge list: http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/quantal/sbuild-ma/status-bootstrap.html
<SteveMcIntyre> at least, that's my impression from others
<SteveMcIntyre> not played directly yet
<wookey_> which is basically the current targeteed package set
<wookey_> can someone take a look and see why _no_ build-deps work currently
<wookey_> that's just what arm used
<SteveMcIntyre> infinity: the list we started with was *more* than bootstrap to start with
<wookey_> becaasue they wanted apche to demo
<SteveMcIntyre> people wanted to demo a simple LAMP stack
<wookey_> click on any build-dep link there
<wookey_> then go down to the bottom
<wookey_> we can fix about 100 builds if that is unbunged :-)
<wookey_> libc6-dev is m-a:same
<suihkulokki> you need a cross-build-essential
<SteveMcIntyre> it makes sense, yes
<wookey_> yes, someone needs to do that
<wookey_> I think ThibG was going to
<wookey_> sbuild has it's own internal list for now
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 5 minutes left in this session!
<wookey_> but it has to chage from debian to ubuntu
<SteveMcIntyre> hell yes
<SteveMcIntyre> infinity: you at Connect too?
<SteveMcIntyre> yay
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 4 minutes left in this session!
<SteveMcIntyre> :-)
<rsalveti> anything else?
<SteveMcIntyre> all done?
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 3 minutes left in this session!
<SteveMcIntyre> agreed
<wookey_> doko: did you already fix M-A python?
<wookey_> so we just have to try it?
<wookey_> or is there more to do?
<doko> wookey_, it should be, but I really didn't test anything with it
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 2 minutes left in this session!
<wookey_> well quantal if armhf
<wookey_> precise was all armel
<SteveMcIntyre> right, time to bail
<SteveMcIntyre> have fun folks
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 1 minute left in this session!
<wookey_> Well, glad to hear you are all going to fix cross stuff :-)
<rsalveti> thanks!
<wookey_> I look forward to it
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: This session has ended.
<wookey_> OK, cheers colin
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track: Community | Continuing Packaging Guide Improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20682/community-q-packaging-guide/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
<wookey_> good - not just me then :-)
<NMinker> I knew of the packaging guide on the wiki, but not this new one
<bobweaver> I will more then willing help anywhere that I can just send a email.But I dont know if I am the best person but I def can help
<bobweaver> josephjamesmills
<bobweaver> https://launchpad.net/~josephjamesmills
<bobweaver> np thank you :)
<bobweaver> new packaging videos ?
<NMinker> Update the old packaging videos (which were done with Hardy?), so they're more current for Precise/Quantal
<bobweaver> is there anyway that you can turn up the mic ?
<linuxtech> How about this idea, get Kahn Academy to do a session on creating and building a package?
<NMinker> call for translators could be a milestone
<bobweaver> what did you ask ?
<bobweaver> I can here
<bobweaver> hear
<NMinker> I forgot
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 5 minutes left in this session!
<NMinker> Promise them cake
<bobweaver> (WIKI)I would like too bring up that there is a team for ubuntu-wiki that is new I will tell them about this ?
<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: 4 minutes left in this session!
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<bobweaver> I wrote code to make html too moinmoin
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<udsbotu> uds-gb-h: This session has ended.
<NMinker> quiet UDSbot
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-h/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h.log
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h to: Track:  | Lubuntu work items for Q | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20575/lubuntu-q-work-items/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-h.ogg.m3u
<bobweaver> Thanks !!
<gilir> I'm waiting 5 min to close the door and to start the session :)
<gilir> hum, as usual, no many people in the room, but the chan is also quiet :-/
<Unit193> \o
<gilir> hey Unit193 :)
<gilir> I feel less alone :)
<IAmNotThatGuy> hey gilir
<gilir> hi IAmNotThatGuy :)
<valdur55> hey!
<IAmNotThatGuy> Hello valdur55
<gilir> do you want me to start talking, or could we cancel the session ? not sure it's really useful with the low number of people :(
<bmoez> please keep it :)
<IAmNotThatGuy> gilir, Important action items can be discussed at this time. People can look at the logs later I believe
<Unit193> Yep.
<gilir> the etherpad : http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20575/lubuntu-q-work-items/
<Unit193> That's the one I switched out since I needed a timed option.
<bmoez> if this is the right time: i think that "Menu" should get more futures. i mean that it should get two looks : one "simple" (as it is now) and other more complet but light (like in winXP)
<bmoez> i mean "Menu" the applet in lxpanel
<Unit193> Along the lines of menu, there was some sort of "LXmed" menu editor, but not in the repo.
<valdur55> I use Synapse semantic launcher for launching programs :)
<bmoez> i think "audacious" should have a more avanced applet for lxpanel if it will not use more Mo
<Unit193> Translations of the site/wiki?
<valdur55> Xfce 4.10 upgraded Application Finder. : http://xfce.org/about/tour . Maybe should have lxde desktop same runner?
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<bmoez> i'm not sure, but installing an other session like gnome-shell or unity with lubuntu will make lubuntu-session more slow (use more memory because some daemons of others sessions open in the lubuntu-session)
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<bmoez> or not?
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<xranby_ac100> i have come across some usb mimo monitors with integrated touchpad.  the device is basically a usb hub that connects to a usb hid input device for the touch   and a display link screen.. the hard part are how to associate the touchscreen orientation with the usb screen
<xranby_ac100> can we support these kind of usb screens? and make the touch work?
<xranby_ac100> hello
<xranby_ac100> !!!
<xranby_ac100> have a nice lunch
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h 2012-05-09
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<mpt> I can't listen to this session (listening to another one), but in case anyone hasn't mentioned it, the phased updates session also discussed -proposed vs. -updates <http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20496/foundations-q-phased-updates/>
<NMinker> Was (Listened to) just at that one
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<godbyk> Release schedule for Getting Started with Ubuntu 12.04:
<godbyk> * May 31 â First draft completed: authors have updated and written new content; screenshots are in place.
<godbyk> * June 15 â Editors have edited and proofread content.
<godbyk> * June 22 â Release a draft for public comment and proofreading for one week.  Incorporate changes as they are suggested.
<godbyk> * June 27 â Final draft is complete and all last-minute changes have been made.
<godbyk> * June 30 â The final PDF is released on our website and printed copies can be purchased via lulu.com.
<godbyk> I've pasted this into the pad, too.
<godbyk> 12.04.1 is due July 19th.
<godbyk> The release date of the 12.04 manual (English edition) is 30 June.  Translators can start working on it around that time as well.
<hannie> Anyone here?
<godbyk> Correct.
<sagaci> yep
<godbyk> The translators have to wait until after a string freeze.
<godbyk> And that happens quite late for us.
<godbyk> (After everyone's finished editing.)
<hannie> I thought Joel would be physically present in room-h
<godbyk> No, it's a bad thing. :-) That's why we didn't make a huge deal about it. We tried to just kind of kick it out the door so we could start on the next version and get things going in a more timely fashion again.
<godbyk> Creating those short pamphlets/packets for specific topics is something that Ben Humphrey and I had discussed a couple years ago but never got around to doing.
<godbyk> Another nice aspect of the manual is that it's self-contained.  You can give someone a single PDF or a printed book.
<hannie> Is there anyone in G, Ballroom H who can chat with us here?
<godbyk> That's why the manual was so late.
<godbyk> The natty edition ended up being folded into the oneiric edition purely because it was so late already.
<godbyk> Hopefully there won't be quite as many sweeping changes in the future.
<godbyk> But if there are, we should prepare for that by bringing in more authors/editors.
<hannie> and developers ;)
<godbyk> The website is in a bzr repository, so we can grant access to more people.
<daker> yes
<godbyk> At the moment, most of the website updates are done by me manually.  (jobs postings and the like.)
<godbyk> As far as the TeX Live stuff, I *think* that the Oneiric stuff is still out of date, but I'll check again. I believe that Debian is still reworking the texlive packages.
<hannie> godbyk, it reminds me, I need to translate the text added to the website recently
<godbyk> hannie: That means I'll need to sort out how to update the pot file. I'll have to pester daker for some help there, I think.
<hannie> can I send you the text so you can add it to the Dutch pages?
<godbyk> Ideally, I'd like to find some web developers to help create a web app so that authors can write/edit the text via our website instead of using LaTeX at all.
<hannie> ah, he is calling for developers now. Good!
<daker> godbyk, SUMO will replace help.ubuntu.com
<godbyk> daker: I saw that.
<godbyk> Well, we're installing TeX Live from upstream at the moment (which runs a perl script or shell script to install things).
<godbyk> The script we have in bzr is just a shell script that checks to ensure you have all the required Ubuntu and TeX Live packages installed.
<godbyk> That's true.  Another difference (IMO) is that it's more fun to write new stuff than it is to edit/modify existing stuff.
<godbyk> (Having said that, there are probably sections of the manual that should be rewritten or looked at afresh.)
<hannie> mind you, it can take three hours to install TexLive
<godbyk> hannie: Or more depending on how fast your Internet connection is.
<godbyk> To what end?
<hannie> that is also a disadvantage I think
<hannie> Beautiful nick on the pad: Bill Gates
<godbyk> Quite old.
<godbyk> It's something from 10.10, I think.
<godbyk> As far as I can tell, the test site has a different look and a different backend, but doesn't provide any additional functionality.
<godbyk> I'd like to have a website built that allows others to easily publish the manuals (so I'm not the only one who can do it.. bus factor and all.)
<godbyk> Quickshot isn't being actively developed.
<godbyk> I emailed the Quickshot devs and only got a response from one of them who said he was quite busy and didn't have much time to work on it.
<godbyk> So we'll need to find some new devs to update Quickshot and bring it up to speed again.
<godbyk> I think the docs team was discussing translated screenshots a while back, too, and I got the impression that Quickshot would be useful to them as well (if we get it running again).
<hannie> Do you need to know about gtk for the development of Quivkshot?
<godbyk> I haven't tried in ages, so I'm not sure.
<godbyk> Basically, Quickshot knew what screenshots you needed to take...
<daker> it's quickly + backend server
<godbyk> ... and it would guide you through the process.
<godbyk> And ensured that the screenshots were consistent across languages, screen resolutions, etc.
<godbyk> It also uploaded the screenshots to our server.
<godbyk> The lag time between when Ubuntu is released and when the manual is released?  I think it varies a bit.  Lemme dig through my email to see what the release dates where.
<godbyk> That'd be useful to know.
<godbyk> An easy way to contribute a bit later in the schedule is to help proofread the public draft (June 22).
<hannie> I think we are especially in need of editors at the moment
<godbyk> hannie: Do we still need chapter editors?
<hannie> not many reactions on the list so far on my call for editors
<hannie> godbyk, I sent an email, but I think it is wiser to contact people personally
<hannie> *sent email to the mailing list that is
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<godbyk> For 10.04, we release the original edition at the same time as Ubuntu 10.04 was released. We released a second edition of the manual for 10.04.01.
<godbyk> We could do something similar for 12.04 and 12.04.1.
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<hannie> so far not many authors have visited #ubuntu-manual to ask questions
<godbyk> hannie: You should add that to this weekend's agenda.
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<hannie> ok
<hannie> we'll make it an item on the agenda to see if help is needed
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<godbyk> Thanks, popey!
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<popey> np dude
<popey> i want a manual as much as you guys :D
<hannie> thanks all of you. It was very useful.
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<sagaci> thanks everyone
<godbyk> Thanks, sagaci!
<hannie> see you sagaci
<cboltz> Two notes about the dovecot profile:
<cboltz> - we'll probably need a tunable with a "mailstore" variable
<cboltz> - I'm just working on profiles for dovecot2 ;-)
<cboltz> yes, opensuse - but dovecot is dovecot
<cboltz> so it should work everywhere
<cboltz> samba brings up another thing I did on openSUSE - automatically updated profiles based on the samba config
<cboltz> (not sure if the script doing it is in upstream samba)
<cboltz> this might be something which should be done for other profiles also
<cboltz> the dovecot mailstore location might be a good candidate
<sbeattie> cboltz: thanks
<sbeattie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap
<cboltz> seeing the roadmap, I'll probably be able to send some of the profiles listed there
<sbeattie> cboltz: that would be awesome, thanks!
<cboltz> like amavisd, postfix, winbind (smbd and nmbd already exist in bzr), spamassasin
 * sbeattie needs to also genericize his postfix and postgrey policies and get them upstream
<cboltz> sounds like we'll start a race on them ;-)
<sbeattie> https://launchpad.net/apparmor-profiles
 * cboltz can't login to the etherpad (dunno why) - can you post the content to the mailinglist after the meeting?
<sbeattie> yeah, we can do that
<cboltz> thanks
<gua-uds> cboltz: make sure on launchpad you're a member of etherpad-members (i think it's called that)
<gua-uds> cboltz: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
<cboltz> joined now - but it seems to take some time until etherpad accepts me
<cboltz> I'll try later again
<sbeattie> cboltz: no worries. Are there apparmor issues you'd like to raise?
<cboltz> maybe one thing
<cboltz> profiles in the apparmor tarball vs. the apparmor-profiles repo
<cboltz> to me, it looks like it will end up in duplicate and/or syncing work...
<cboltz> wouldn't it be better to have as much profiles as possible in the apparmor tarball?
<cboltz> I'm afraid that will end up in a maintenance hell
<cboltz> because many packagers don't care too much about the profiles :-(
<cboltz> The only thing I could think of is to have a "apparmor-profiles-devel" package
<cboltz> and the packages build-require it and copy "their" profile from it
<cboltz> but that isn't too different from having a big apparmor-profiles package...
<cboltz> BTW: the apparmor-profiles repo contains various dummy profiles that say "this profile is maintained in $package"
<cboltz> in other words: it's hard for me to get those profiles
<cboltz> would the build-require method I mentioned work for ubuntu?
<cboltz> like maintain the profiles in the apparmor-profiles repo
<cboltz> and copy them to the packages from there?
<cboltz> sounds promising :-)
<cboltz> (however you do it)
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<jjohansen> cboltz: did you have anything you wanted to raise about dev, not just packaging?
<cboltz> I'd still like to have a "create_file_rule" function in the script to generate apparmor.vim
<cboltz> which would make it easy to support "rw /path/to/file,"
<cboltz> besides that, nothing at the moment
<jtaylor> general question: aa-logprof tends to sort profiles in a certain way, is there a seperate tool to sort profiles for easier diff's?
<jjohansen> jtaylor: not atm, but we should add that
<cboltz> jtaylor: diff -u | sort  somehow works ;-)  (it ignores the +/-)
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<jjohansen> jtaylor: aa-diff is a work item (wip)
<jtaylor> that would be very useful
<cboltz> what about a profile2audit.log converter? It would probably be quite easy to write, and we could re-use logprof for merging
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<sbeattie> cboltz: "create_file_rule"> I'm not sure I understand what you want, but if you want to send me an email, I can work on it.
<cboltz> sbeattie: will do
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<jjohansen> cboltz: profile2audit.log? Can you expand
<cboltz> jjohansen: something that converts a profile to an audit.log
<cboltz> basically that's easy - the only exception is handling *
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<cboltz> logprof could then read that (faked) audit.log
<jjohansen> cboltz: hrmm, interesting how you handle globbing? Generate entries for every fs entry that matches?
<jjohansen> it would be good for testing
<cboltz> globbing is the interesting[tm] issue ;-)
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<jjohansen> yeah :)
<cboltz> maybe we could even write something like /path/** to the faked audit.log
<cboltz> and add a flag to mark it as glob
<jjohansen> cboltz: we will add it as a work item
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<cboltz> profile2audit.log would not only be useful for testing
<cboltz> it would also be useful as merge tool
<jjohansen> cboltz: hrmm, maybe
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<jjohansen> cboltz: thanks for coming
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h 2012-05-10
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<bilal> -_-
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<Sweetshark_> AlanBell: ping?
<AlanBell> hi Sweetshark_
<Sweetshark_> AlanBell: how are things going with the templates for LO? do we need some preparations for that?
<Sweetshark_> how big do you assume the stuff to get?
<AlanBell> hmm, maybe I should flip rooms :)
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h 2012-05-11
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<NMinker> I got into it in college, and, on my own, installed Ubuntu 8.04 on a VM,
<NMinker> 10.10 was the first one I installed on a physical machine (that's when I started contributing)
<NMinker> May I just say, I found Daniel's Packaging videos (on the UbuntuDev YouTube page) very useful
<dholbach> thank NMinker :)
<highvoltage> yeah they are awesome.
<dholbach> who would be interested in helping to update them? :)
<Faqtotum> I know we've moved on from the question "How did you get started in open source?" so I thought I'd answer it here instead. From a very early age, I've had a firm belief in Anarchism, since the very day I first saw the word in the dictionary. At that time, whenever I looked anything up in the dictionary, I'd invariably end up just reading many pages of it. After I began coding, what I was mostly do
<dholbach> Faqtotum, it seems like what you were saying was cut off
<Faqtotum> oing was what Richard Stallman defines "hacking" to be, though I didn't know it at the time. What I mostly hacked on was other people's code, generally without any sources, so I became rather skilled at making sense of disassembly listings and single-stepping. One time, I spent five days and nights straight just single-stepping through Microsoft Excel. Moore's Law eventually made me realize that m
<asomething> Faqtotum, apt-get install anarchism
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<Faqtotum> my next computer could run some flavor of UNIX, to which my previous exposure had been limited to large-installation systems, and I liked it very much. I was told that most flavors of UNIX were gradually being deprecated, but that there was one called Linux that wasn't and could run on a wide variety of personal computers. The more I learned about this flavor of UNIX and about its licence, the GPL
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<Faqtotum> Lv2, the more I saw that the practices behind it were what I had always done, but I had never imagined they could work on such a massive scale. It took me several years to accept that, but I haven't looked back.
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<dholbach> nice :)
<dholbach> that's pretty similar to what some other folks said
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