#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-13
<ochosi> charlie-tca: hey
<ochosi> charlie-tca: unfortunately the slider-screenshot is not online anymore
<ochosi> charlie-tca: about the other thing: that's clearly thunderbird's fault :)
<charlie-tca> ochosi: http://imagebin.org/127621
<charlie-tca> ochosi: the shrinking icons appears to be something in xfce4.9 panel
<charlie-tca> s/xfce4.9/xfce4.8
<ochosi> charlie-tca: hm, what exactly on that screenshot?
<ochosi> ah right
<ochosi> now i get it
<ochosi> you mean the scrollbars
<ochosi> yeah, that's the idea that they blend in with the background
<charlie-tca> yeah, the area for them is blended
<ochosi> it's a design decision
<charlie-tca> but the arrows help 
<charlie-tca> Okay, That's what I wanted to know. 
<ochosi> yeah, i didn't have those in earlier versions
<ochosi> but obviously without arrows you have problems with ooffice and firefox
<charlie-tca> and thunar, too
<ochosi> really?
<ochosi> i mean: having no arrows *breaks* openoffice
<ochosi> you can't use the scrollbars anymore
<charlie-tca> ouch.
<charlie-tca> Thunar doesn't break without them, but it is harder to use the scrollbars if you blend into the background and have to grab the slider bar to scroll. I seldom hit those, it is easier to click the mouse to scroll.
<charlie-tca> My hands are not steady enough to try and move the mouse to scroll
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: alternate 386 installs today! first time since the alpha1 release
<ochosi> charlie-tca: right, well as long as they are ok the way they are now i'm happy :)
<charlie-tca> They are quite usable the way you have them. :-)
<ochosi> what do you think about the window-manager theme?
<charlie-tca> I like it. I would like a little more definition when looking at both active and inactive windows, but so far, it is real good.
<charlie-tca> It isn't something that has to change, though
<ochosi> ok, it's just a preliminary theme, it could be modified/exchanged
<charlie-tca> I think the color is good. I have been using it and the icon set both
<ochosi> ok, that's good to heat
<ochosi> s/heat/hear
<ochosi> i think mr_pouit preferres elementary, because it's not as colourful as faenza
<ochosi> but maybe i can discuss this in more detail with him when he's around
<charlie-tca> hm, I don't know. I have to have icons that I can distinguish, and elementary doesn't work for me. 
<charlie-tca> But, that is minor, I can go with either set
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> well for me the main point is that the theme we're using is xfce-complete
<ochosi> for visual consistency
<charlie-tca> Yes, agreed
<ochosi> but i think we can achieve that for either theme
<ochosi> so in the end we can have a vote or something
<charlie-tca> Edubuntu said they won't go with faenza now because too many others are using it
<ochosi> a-ha
<ochosi> that argument is a bit strange in my opinion
<charlie-tca> yup
<ochosi> i think we should go with what works best, not with what distinguishes us most
<ochosi> otherwise we could just as well use the highcontrast-theme :p
<charlie-tca> I prefer the idea it is the best for our use, not the best for everyone else.
 * charlie-tca would not mind the highcontrast, but it probably is not ideal for most people
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> yeah, i agree
<charlie-tca> besides, that is easy enough to change. 
<ochosi> you mean for the end-user?
<charlie-tca> yes
<ochosi> sure
<charlie-tca> If they really don't like what we give them, they can change it easily. Most won
<charlie-tca>  t, but hey, ...
<charlie-tca> We just give them the best things we can for starting off. If they choose to keep them, that is great!
<ochosi> yep
<mr_pouit> yay, +1 for finding an icon theme that nobody uses ;>
<mr_pouit> hey there
<ochosi> hey mr_pouit 
<ochosi> o/
<charlie-tca> Good Morning, mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> I heard a rumor that Ubuntu might use faenza, too, but it just a rumor
<ochosi> seriously? where did you hear that?
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: ah, good for the alternate cd :)
<charlie-tca> I don't remember, probably heard it on identi.ca
<mr_pouit> is there a "shrinking icons" issue? In the systray?
<charlie-tca> Going to try all the images today
<ochosi> mr_pouit: you once said that faenza is too colorfull for you, would you like to specify that a bit? (i mean the toolbar and the panel are obviously monochrome. so everything else? or just the apps?)
<charlie-tca> Yes, mr_pouit. The icons shrink until they disappear, or get so small they are no longer visible.
<charlie-tca> That is in the panel, not the theme
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: I noticed that with xfce4-panel 4.7, icons in the systray are much smaller, but they are still visible here. Do you have a screenshot of that?
<mr_pouit> ochosi: it was only when opening the apps menu yeah
<charlie-tca> sure, let me upload the image
<ochosi> mr_pouit: mm, so you mean the category-icons or the apps as well?
<mr_pouit> ochosi: when opening the menu, I felt there was no theme identity, only a set of apps icons (i.e. no consistency, lots of different colors)
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> is that the same with app-finder?
<mr_pouit> I'll retry faenza-xfce this evening then :)
<ochosi> it's true that the ap-icon "consistency" mainly stems from the fact that they're all square-shaped :)
<ochosi> okeydokey, thanks. i really appreciate some feedback here
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: http://imagebin.org/127713 are the small icons
<charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/127714 are the missing icons a few hours later the same day. Nothing was done to the computer, not even updates
<mr_pouit> eek, ok
<mr_pouit> I think you can report that upstream directly
<charlie-tca> okay
<ochosi> brr, doesn't look nice
<mr_pouit> with a 24px panel, my icon aren't so mall
<mr_pouit> *small
<charlie-tca> huh?
<charlie-tca> my panel is 40px
<mr_pouit> maybe there's a miscalculation in the ratio
<charlie-tca> and here is today's size - http://imagebin.org/127716
<mr_pouit> http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6950 maybe
<mr_pouit> yeah, it looks like your issue
<charlie-tca> It does. I will attach the pics to it
<mr_pouit> or http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6892
<charlie-tca> look like duplicate reports. They are both the same issue
<mr_pouit> yep
<mr_pouit> anyway, regardless of my opinion on faenza (:p), I think we should decide soon. If we put it in daily builds early, we should be able to detect more issues (same for the panel layout). And we can even do several experiments/switch several times before the alpha 2, it's only a config file change (well, several, but no big deal).
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> btw, i think the shutdown-dialog-buttons are hideous in faenza :)
<charlie-tca> heh, it is!
<ochosi> i mean we can also mix the two icon themes ;)
<ochosi> but we might end up having no consistency at all
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: if you prefer elementary, we can put it in. I don't trust my eyes that much on these
 * charlie-tca thinks highcontrast icons are the best for seeing, which limits how hard he would push for anything icon related.
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i don't mind deciding on the icon-theme soonish
<ochosi> i won't be around for the rest of the week though
<charlie-tca> ochosi: the thunar icon is really bright, too
<ochosi> if next week is early enough...
<ochosi> yeah, i know, faenza has really vivid colors
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I am willing to let ochosi decide what works best with the theme
<mr_pouit> (well, we have to keep elementary installed not to break upgrades anyway)
<charlie-tca> we do?
<charlie-tca> I had tango in use when I upgraded to natty
<ochosi> hm, that's a strong argument for elementary
<ochosi> cause faenza would add an additional 20-30mb to the iso
<mr_pouit> mmh, not so sure, because svgs and pngs are reoptimized on the builders
<mr_pouit> it's worth trying
<ochosi> i already locally optimized the pngs
<ochosi> it was still more than 20meg i think
<mr_pouit> (and we can choose to remove elementaryXubuntu anyway, as long as we put a symbolic link to faenza-xfce, so people won't lose all icons on upgrade)
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> well, anyway, i wouldn't mind keeping elementary
<ochosi> but feel free to test it for a while and we can decide next week, k?
<mr_pouit> yeah, no hurry
<ochosi> good
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: even the live desktop makes me choose the panel configuration. How can I choose keep the old panel on a live cd?
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: because the xubuntu-default-settings still keeps an "old" (= 4.6) config
<mr_pouit> and the panel detects that as an old config (as expected), and proposes the migration
<mr_pouit> It'll stay like that until we have decided on a new panel layout I guess
<mr_pouit> (otherwise I'll have to handle a lot of moves of config files, and this is annoying)
<charlie-tca> Okay, that's good then
<charlie-tca> less work is better :-)
<charlie-tca> progress... desktop 386 installed
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-14
<micahg> FYI, xubuntu packageset isn't showing up on the Ubuntuwire FTBFS page, I'm looking into it
<charlie-tca> could it be because it does not exist?
<cody-somerville> mmm :)
<micahg> charlie-tca: it exists, it just isn't in the package-sets list that the LP API exposes
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> Do we have to do something to fix that?
<micahg> charlie-tca: well, geser pinged cjwatson, so hopefully he'll have some idea
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> Good morning
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-15
<ochosi> charlie-tca, mr_pouit: just quickly popping in to say i installed natty, seems to work ok. a few issues though:
<ochosi> jockey-trayicon is missing
<ochosi> no idea why that is
<ochosi> i mean there's no icon for it
<ochosi> at least with elementary
<ochosi> hmm, there was more, hope it'll come back later
<ochosi> about the panel config: we should really use orage instead of clock, it adds nice additional functionality
<mr_pouit> oki
<ochosi> and it seems notify-osd is still installed by default?
<mr_pouit> yeah, I didn't have time to send a mail about that and change the seeds :p
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> tbh i like the look of the elementary icon theme right now
<ochosi> i've been using faenza for a month or two now
<ochosi> but elementary seems a lot smoother/more quiet
<ochosi> and: i like the look of the default folders in thunar now
<mr_pouit> ochosi: the special folders?
<mr_pouit> (video, etc.)
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> just installed faenza now to see how that goes
<ochosi> k, g2g, see you later
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> ochosi took the orage clock right out of my head. That was going to be my suggestion, too
<charlie-tca> I would even like to have it default to time and date in the panel
<charlie-tca> but no weekday. Keep it short
 * charlie-tca also hates that long line thing in Ubuntu
<micahg> mr_pouit: would fixing the powerpc FTBFS be a way for me to help?  The whole stack seems blocked on libxfce4ui
<mr_pouit> yeah, definitely, I don't have any ppc system
<mr_pouit> and it might be ubuntu specific
<mr_pouit> otherwise I'm in favor of dropping powerpc daily images :[
<micahg> mr_pouit: hmm, I don't have a working PPC at the moment, but I'm happy to research it
<mr_pouit> the build apparently works fine, but 3 symbols are missing at the end
<micahg> I can probably bribe someone w/a native PPA to do a test upload for me :)
<mr_pouit> I rebuilt it several times on LP when a toolchain package was updated, but no luck
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-16
<charlie-tca__> Good morning
<charlie-tca__> any recommendations for Ubuntu/Xubuntu on a PDA?
<TheSheep> I'd go with something like matchbox...
<TheSheep> http://www.linux-laptop.net/palmtops.html
<charlie-tca__> thanks
<charlie-tca__> Reminder - Xubuntu Community Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 25 minutes; everyone invited; agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca__> well, that's wrong. The meeting is in 1-1/2 hours at 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> Reminder - Xubuntu Community Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 25 minutes; everyone invited; agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, cody-somerville: Xubuntu Community Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now, please
<mr_pouit> hop, both forwarded
<micahg> charlie-tca: do I have your ok to represent Xubuntu at the LTS meeting?
<charlie-tca> yes, but be aware, I am on that team, too
<micahg> charlie-tca: oh, if you'll be there, I won't worry then
<charlie-tca> I welcome you're help
<charlie-tca> Just let me know if I have to speak up ;-)
<micahg> charlie-tca: ok, I think the main question that's specifically related to xubuntu that might come up is what arches to spin for the update, I'm guessing just i386 and amd64?
<charlie-tca> I just mostly listen there
<charlie-tca> yes, and the release contact for Xubuntu is myself
<micahg> charlie-tca: ok, great
<charlie-tca> micahg: I am learning...
<micahg> charlie-tca: me too :)
<micahg> charlie-tca: are there a lot of outstanding xubuntu bugs (untriaged)?
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> Never lots; somewhere around 250
<micahg> ah, good
<micahg> charlie-tca: well, relative to Ubuntu, not much, but still a lot, maybe we should schedule a bug day for xubuntu early next month?
<charlie-tca> We try to stay on top of them. I knock them down to about 100 before each release
<charlie-tca> We don't need it. 
<charlie-tca> It takes one person about 4 days to knock them down
<micahg> charlie-tca: right, but do we have someone with 4 days time to do it?  A bug day invites new contributors and can possibly get it done in 1
<charlie-tca> micahg: I only show about 125 bugs total reported against lucid
<charlie-tca> and most of them are triaged or fixed already
<micahg> charlie-tca: how are you searching?
<charlie-tca> Let me think on it. 
<charlie-tca> I keep lists on my computer
<charlie-tca> We are small enough to get away with that, still.
<charlie-tca> item 4 of bug triage on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs will give you the new bugs in Xubuntu list
<charlie-tca> Lucid bugs, I track manually
<charlie-tca> Well, now natty bugs
<micahg> well, there are 250 bugs on that list, but not all are xubuntu issues
<charlie-tca> I know
<charlie-tca> But some that are xubuntu aren't there, too
<micahg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs shows 325 open issues
<micahg> but idk how many are triaged since the package bugs search seems broke
<charlie-tca> that doesn't mean we haven't touched them, though
<micahg> right
<micahg> charlie-tca: up to you, just an idea
<charlie-tca> I mean, abiword has 47 bugs there, but most of those are triaged
<micahg> BTW, link 3 on that wiki page should be the link I posted instead of the one there now
<charlie-tca> 15 are in new status. 
 * micahg wishes +packagebugs was by status :-/
<charlie-tca> Yup, I don't why there is an edge link
<charlie-tca> That's why I use link 4. It is new only
<micahg> charlie-tca: yeah, but that's not a complete list since it's a text search
<charlie-tca> That's why mr_pouit and I go through both sets monthly or so
<micahg> ok
<charlie-tca> It's good to be small enough to do that
<charlie-tca> fixed link 3
<micahg> charlie-tca: thanks
<charlie-tca> Thank you. I might not have even noticed it, since I have all those bookmarked
<charlie-tca> It's good to have someone bringing things up that we tend to ignore
<charlie-tca> micahg: Thank you for bringing up things I need to think about.
<micahg> charlie-tca: glad to help
<charlie-tca> Sometimes it is too easy to say "we do it this way..."
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-17
<micahg> mr_pouit: am I ok to upload a similar powerpc fix for exo to the one that doko did for libsfce4ui?
<micahg> mr_pouit: oh, I guess you did it 5 minutes before I had it ready :-/
<mr_pouit> micahg: eh sorry, I saw the ftbfs mail when I woke up, so I uploaded the fix immediately ;]
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: fresh install today, desktop does not start; live cd same - desktop does not start. It is installed. I can start it myself.
<mr_pouit> not sure why, I tried the current i386 daily image this morning, and it started :]
<charlie-tca> I just ran it on hardware, got panels without the desktop wallpaper. 
<charlie-tca> I can't get virtualbox to work in Natty now. 
<charlie-tca> Maybe it dislikes my ATI 9800 ?
<charlie-tca> Oh, wait. This is yesterday's live cd
<charlie-tca> Today's failed to build
<mr_pouit> I don't know, I still need to disable "launch gnome services" in the default config, otherwise xfce4-session will try to start half of gnome (i.e. even desktop files with OnlyShowIn=GNOME;) afaik
<mr_pouit> yeah, it failed
<charlie-tca> great... I will wait for another build to file bugs
<mr_pouit> but it won't affect existing configs
<mr_pouit> so you should uncheck the box in xfce4-session settings ;)
<charlie-tca> This is running the live cd
<mr_pouit> and see if it's better
<mr_pouit> mmh, ok
<mr_pouit> anything in .xsession-errors ?
<charlie-tca> My install is working
<charlie-tca> forgot to look
<charlie-tca> doesn't look like it
<charlie-tca> We can wait and see next week
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: is apport following your gtk+ theme?
<charlie-tca> I don't understand
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: the apport window that appears, is it correctly themed?
<charlie-tca> I haven't seen an apport crash on natty in the panel
<mr_pouit> when I tried this morning, it was "plain ugly grey"
<charlie-tca> heh
<mr_pouit> mmh, maybe you can make it appear with "apport-bug"
<mr_pouit> (in a terminal)
<charlie-tca> I haven't seen any crashes come up
<mr_pouit> yeah yeah, I know, I had to provoke one to see apport ;>
<charlie-tca> checking
<charlie-tca> what package works?
<charlie-tca> linux and thunar and vbox are not guenuine packages
<charlie-tca> I can't force one
<charlie-tca> apparently all my packages are "not a genuine Xubuntu package"
<charlie-tca> lol; must have faked everything on here... ;-)
<charlie-tca> I like greybird more than bluebird
<charlie-tca> just my 2 cents
<mr_pouit> hehe
<mr_pouit> if you add xfce4-verve-plugin, can you see what you type in the tex area ?
<mr_pouit> *text
<mr_pouit> with bluebird it seems to be white on white ;)
<charlie-tca> it worked with dictionary plugin, let me check
<mr_pouit> no need to, if it works with dict-plugin, it's okay
<charlie-tca> going to verify anyway, maybe I used a different theme when I tested it
<charlie-tca> isn't white on white hard to see?
<charlie-tca> very light gray on white
<charlie-tca> very hard to see in greybird too
<charlie-tca> I have to hilight the text to see it
<mr_pouit> yeah, with bluebird it's invisible :p
<charlie-tca> I will have to install a floppy drive in a test unit to check the bugs from that. My system with the working drive lost the motherboard
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: are we really going to try and support floppy drives in Natty?
<mr_pouit> "[Build #2081503] powerpc build of xfce4-panel 4.7.6-0ubuntu1 in ubuntu natty RELEASE" <<< micahg, it's for you if you want :P (I will only be at home in 2~3h, so I'll do it if you haven't done it already ;)
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: if gio supports mounting floppy drives, yeah ;>
<mr_pouit> otherwise, we don't care
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will check it out then. 
<mr_pouit> micahg: oops, nvm, doko was faster :p
<ochosi> hi everyone
<ochosi> about the invisible text: i'll check it out in a few mins, have to reboot to natty
<ochosi> haven't noticed that problem yet though
<ochosi> maybe some new behaviour of murrine...
<charlie-tca> It is only the panel apps, as far as I know
<ochosi> aha
<ochosi> interesting
<ochosi> true
<ochosi> it's the same in maverick
<ochosi> thanks for reporting that
<ochosi> is it problematic in any other plugin than verve?
<charlie-tca> xfce4-dictionary
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> kay, i'll try to fix the panel code asap
<charlie-tca> We seem to be a bit fussy now. Wanting to read the text that got typed! ;-)
<ochosi> btw, i made a new gtk-scale style for greybird, will push that in a few mins
<ochosi> would be interested what you say
<ochosi> it should be more visible and better for accessibility now
<charlie-tca> I like that idea
<ochosi> i'll maybe also try to quickly fix the panel-text problem
<ochosi> k, i fixed it
<ochosi> i'll commit the stuff in a few mins
<ochosi> can any of you test the fix on natty?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> let me know
<ochosi> charlie-tca: just pushed the changes, should now be available in the hg-repo
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> Looks the same
<ochosi> really?
<charlie-tca> yup
<ochosi> k, will check myself quickly in natty
<charlie-tca> I have to hilight the text to see that I typed it
<ochosi> the fix worked in maverick
<ochosi> brb
<charlie-tca> ochosi: it works now in verve plugin but not in dictionary plugin
<charlie-tca> Letters are very sharp in verve plugin
<ochosi> charlie-tca: please specify the dict-problem
<ochosi> dict is only a launcher button as far as i can see
<ochosi> ah right
<ochosi> now i see
<charlie-tca> When you add it to the panel, you add a book and a blank
<ochosi> well, not by default
<charlie-tca> no? mine did
<ochosi> by default it's without the textbox in the panel (at least here)
<ochosi> but nevermind, i'll fix it
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> sorry for the confusion
<ochosi> no problem
<ochosi> it's a pity that the systray is still broken
<charlie-tca> +1
<charlie-tca> But, they don't shrink all the way gone everyday :-)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> hm, strange that the fix doesn't apply for the dict-plugin, it's using the same widget as the verve plugin
<charlie-tca> hm, before we couldn't type in either one, but that got fixed finally
<ochosi> hm, i think i won't have enough time to fix xfce-dict for now, g2g
<ochosi> i'll put it on the todo-list for greybird
<charlie-tca> That works, too. Didn't expect you to jump right in 
<ochosi> well, it seemed easy to figure out ;)
<ochosi> how do you like the new scale style?
<ochosi> (it's that widget you can see as progressbar of a video/audio in parole)
<ochosi> i guess you have to play a file to really see how it works/looks
<ochosi> charlie-tca: in case i forget about the dict-bug please remind me
<ochosi> g2g now
<charlie-tca> Oh, 
<charlie-tca> I don't do well with that, but will check it out in a bit
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<ochosi> k, see you
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I can not get Natty to recognize the floppy drive. I don't know if there is a udev rule for it even.
<mr_pouit> I only have laptops here, so no more floppy disk for me :p
<charlie-tca> Well, I get the drive in lucid, but not maverick or natty
<charlie-tca> I can't force a mount even, because it isn't in /dev
<mr_pouit> yeah, then probably a kernel or udev issue
<charlie-tca> Want to kill the bug reports on floppies then? 
<mr_pouit> I don't think the original reporter still cares
<charlie-tca> I will take care of it. 
<micahg> mr_pouit: the xdg applications list moving to /usr/share doesn't change anything WRT its purpose, right?
<mr_pouit> micahg: it shouldn't
<micahg> mr_pouit: ok, I'll update the firefox apparmor profile then
<mr_pouit> putting it to /etc was probably a mistake in the first time ;[
<micahg> mr_pouit: because it's not meant to be changed?
<mr_pouit> yeah, and all desktop files added would be marked as conffiles, so not really usable
<micahg> ok, cool
<mr_pouit> (there will be already enough rm_conffile stuff because of the 4.6 -> 4.8 transition)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-12
<knome> morning
<ochosi> hi pasi
<knome> hey simon
<astraljava> Hello Simon and Pasi.
 * astraljava sort of wants to see how far we can go with this.
<knome> hey janne
<astraljava> Hey, how can I make a shortcut in Thunar of a smb:// protocol location?
<micahg> hi astraljava
<astraljava> Hey micahg!
<knome> hey micah :)
<knome> astraljava, with gigolo?
<micahg> hi knome
<ochosi> :)
<astraljava> knome: You don't have a geisha?
<ochosi> astraljava: i'm not really sure you can within thunar, at least not with the current version/sidebar
<astraljava> ochosi: Ok. I'll look into gigolo, then.
<astraljava> knome: gigolo seems to work, but the bookmarks don't appear anywhere.
<astraljava> knome: Nevermind, there's now an icon in the indicator plugin.
<knome> :)
<astraljava> Still I'd wish it could be used from Thunar, but that'll do.
<astraljava> Thanks!
<knome> np
<GridCube> knome, ping
<knome> GridCube, pong
<GridCube> I have sent a mail to the creator of xfce4-kbdleds-plugin, as you requested, asking him to clean his plugin code
<GridCube> he answered me telling me that he released a new version a few weeks ago
<knome> okay
<GridCube> and to tell him what else should he change on it
<knome> can you be in contact with mr_pouit?
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> mr_pouit: ping
<Unit193> astraljava: Did you happen to look in ~/.gvfs?
<mr_pouit> o hai
<mr_pouit> Grpong
<mr_pouit> grmbl
<mr_pouit> Gricube left ;]
<scott-work> wasn't there talk about using a different pdf viewer or image viewer for precise?
<baizon> image viewer
<baizon> the new risretto version
<scott-work> ah, thanks baizon 
<baizon> scott-work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/TechnicalOverview/Alpha1
<madnick> ochosi: ping
<ochosi> madnick: pong
<madnick> I am going to upload the greeter this weekend, I'd like to work with you, over this week to make the draft of the theme close to "finished"
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> i'm _extremely_ busy but i'll do my best
<madnick> oh okay
<madnick> I've sadly been busy aswell the past 2 weeks :( 
<ochosi> so let's do focussed, concentranted sprints?
<madnick> Yes
<ochosi> yeah, no problem
<madnick> That would be great
<madnick> ochosi: do we want an LP page for the theme?
<madnick> Because I will have one for the greeter
<baizon> got any mockups to the new greeter? :D
<madnick> yes, but they are very early stage
<ochosi> baizon: yes, even screenshots ;)
<baizon> link plz plz
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/drafta.png
<ochosi> that's a screenshot :)
<madnick> more is done, but its on my laptop
<madnick> and its almost bed time now
<baizon> thank you :-)
<ochosi> madnick: ok, so another time then?
<madnick> ochosi: yes, any day is fine but today, i think/hope (for me) :P
<ochosi> ok, we'll see, i really have a busy week
<ochosi> quite a few gigs and helping other people move
<ochosi> plus real work
<madnick> yeah, if we cant do it this week, its not the end of the world, i will just work on the greeter engine more i suppose
<madnick> It just feels a bit wierd to have the greeter but no theem
<madnick> theme*
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> true
<pleia2> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/xfce4-weather-plugin works, will this be automatically pulled for pangolin? (I am pretty sure it will be, just want to be sure :))
<micahg> pleia2: already in :)
<pleia2> awesome, thanks :)
<ochosi> that's great news :)
<mr_pouit> (and it's waiting for approval for {lucid,maverick,natty,oneiric}-proposed)
<ochosi> even better
<ochosi> hi mr_pouit 
<pleia2> oh good
<knome> pleia2, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions
<knome> pleia2, we need to change the paragraph on that...
<pleia2> agreed
<pleia2> (also, where do these wiki pages come from?!)
<knome> hahah
<knome> i'm sure they are created by the jono awesomeness when we sleep ;)
<pleia2> kubuntu's one is all fluff, so I suppose I can edit it to include our fluff
<pleia2> "Xubuntu is an elegant and easy-to-use operating system. Xubuntu comes with Xfce, which is a stable, light and configurable desktop environment."
<knome> hehe
<pleia2> TBH we are ending up "light" again since everything else is going all woo 3d compiz omg
<knome> "Xubuntu is the best. We don't know why they even suggest any other flavors. Get it now!"
<pleia2> lol
<Unit193> I'd call Xubuntu mediumweight, and Unity deadweight ;)
<pleia2> lol
<astraljava> Unit193: What was that .gvfs about?
<Unit193> astraljava: Gigolo "mounts" it to there, and thus you can link to folders and such
<astraljava> Unit193: Right, okay.
<knome> astraljava, i'd use smbfs, but that's just me :)
<Unit193> smbfs permit keys?
<astraljava> knome: Where would you use it?
<knome> astraljava, if i'd want to mount samba shares
<knome> astraljava, wasn't that what you are doing?
<astraljava> knome: Yes, but how/where would you use it?
<knome> Unit193, probably.
<GridCube> mr_pouit, ping
<Unit193> knome: Err... I read sshfs, and that's what I'm looking for :P
<knome> astraljava, smbfs remote_path: /local/path
<knome> astraljava, mounts samba share to /local/path
<astraljava> knome: Ahh... yeah.
<knome> but yeah, i don't remember the syntax from the heart
<astraljava> I guess I should do that.
<mr_pouit> GridCube: pong
<knome> ooh, mr_pouit :)
<astraljava> But then I get yelled at when there's no path to those filesystems.
<GridCube> :)
<knome> astraljava, i have /ssh/mountname
<knome> eg. /ssh/knomefi
<knome> and i mount to those with sshfs
<knome> nobody shouts because /ssh/knomefi always exists
<knome> and must exist, if you want to mount there
<GridCube> mr_pouit, knome told me to tell you that i got in contact with the guy that made the xfce4-kbdleds-plugin, he told me he cleaned the code a few weeks ago (before you ask me to ask him to clean it) so he now asks me what else should he do, or what should he change on it so it can get into PP
<astraljava> Yea, but those filesystems are inside the company network, and I don't, by default, open VPN everytime from outside.
<knome> astraljava, so you mean you get shouted because the remote path doesn't exist?
<ochosi> what a busy night
<knome> does verkkokauppa.com use ubuntu font, or is it set somewhere in ubufox that sites should use that as a title font?
<astraljava> knome: I think so, but I might be wrong. And it's probably in some log file buried deep inside /var anyway, so might as well do that.
<knome> mmh.
<astraljava> knome: astraljava.kapsi.fi/verkkokauppa.com.png
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/other/ff-font.png
<astraljava> Does look the same on Chrome.
<knome> looks like it's just h1.productName that has that font
<knome> hahah, right
<knome> yeah
<knome> spotted "Ubuntu" on their stylesheet
<knome> so it wasn't just me going mad
<mr_pouit> GridCube: yeah, apparently there's a new tarball from Dec 1st
<astraljava> No, not just. There are other factors.
<mr_pouit> looks cleaner
<knome> mr_pouit, i think the question is; is it okay for you to upload this, or do you want more changes?
<mr_pouit> it looks ok
<knome> okay, great
<knome> i changed the blueprint status
<knome> now it's waiting for your actions, mr_pouit 
<mr_pouit> I'll try to do it soon
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> ok so I will send a mail to the developer saying this to him
<GridCube> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-13
<knome> mr_pouit, ?
<mr_pouit> knome: oui ?
<knome> mr_pouit, what's the current situation with xubuntu image size?
<knome> do we have any free?
<ochosi> knome: read here: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8238
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 8238 in General "More themeable tabwin" [Enhancement,New: ]
<knome> :)
<knome> bbl
<mr_pouit> knome: it's oversized on amd64 I think
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i think he asked to get a general idea of whether adding a set of wallpapers is realistic
<ochosi> (even a small set of say, 5-10 wallpapers)
 * micahg wonders what happened to make us oversized
<ochosi> greasy food?
<ochosi> or generally stuffing too many packages down our throat
<astraljava> $ apt-cache search greasy food
<astraljava> jaska@ardbeg:~ 20:17:23 $ 
<astraljava> Nope, don't see that as the reason.
<ochosi> astraljava: ardbeg? r u a whiskey fan?
<astraljava> ochosi: Most certainly.
<knome> i had ardbeg on friday
<astraljava> I heard they have the triple-cask in St.Michaels here in Oulu. I hope I get to taste it before it runs out.
<knome> meh
<astraljava> How so?
<knome> just generally meh for limited alcohol batches
<knome> i'm hoping to get to taste the ron zacapa XO rum
<astraljava> I haven't had time to get into rum tasting. Perhaps you'll teach me sometime when I'm down in Helsinki?
<knome> yeah, why not
<astraljava> Btw. has anyone successfully changed T-bird links to open in chrom[e|ium] instead of Firefox?
<knome> i usually have several brands home, but now i only have the ron zacapa 23, since it's so good i don't really need anything else.
<astraljava> I can't seem to manage.
<astraljava> Interesting, I
<astraljava> 'll make a mental note of that.
<knome> yeah. that is really top notch
<knome> not made from molasses as most rum, but virgin sugar cane honey
<knome> and aged above the clouds
<knome> the normal is 23-yo (solera)
<astraljava> So what is the proper way of tasting rum? I don't suppose you are allowed to pour a tiny drop of water in, like with single malts?
<knome> just drink that neat
<astraljava> Ok.
<knome> the thing is that a good rum doesn't really need the water
<astraljava> Yeah, I figured it might not.
<ochosi> astraljava: well ardbeg is not a bad choice
<astraljava> Certainly not. Also a big fan of Laphroigh.
<ochosi> mm, smoky stuff
<astraljava> Highland Park too, but that's not an Islay malt anymore.
<ochosi> so you like the sound of islands?
<astraljava> Yes, for sure.
<astraljava> Don't think /etc/hostname accepts that character I can't even produce, though. :D
<ochosi> :)
<knome> astraljava, isn't that laphroAig?
<knome> anyway, bbl ->
<astraljava> knome: I guess it is, yeah.
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-14
<micahg> mr_pouit: knome: python3 put us over
<mr_pouit> ha
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> damn those snakes...
<knome> huh? :P
<knome> heh
<knome> right...
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-15
<micahg> does anyone who's testing ATM care that we're oversized?
<micahg> amd64 live only
<Unit193> I personally wouldn't as I don't have 64bit for testing
 * micahg guesses he'll have to repeat in the morning for Charlie
<micahg> do we have a meeting later today
<ochosi> good question
<knome> feel free to have one, but i'm sick so i don't know if i can be up
<knome> we should send the notes to ubuntu-release today about changes in xubuntu
<knome> madnick should be able to do this if we get to gather those
 * ochosi won't be able to be around before 9pm UTC (or possibly not at all)
<knome> mmh
 * micahg can't make it later than 2100, should we reschedule?
<ochosi> hm, depends on who could actually make it
<ochosi> sry, g2g
<knome> madnick, the problem is the notes should be sent today
<knome> micahg, ^
<knome> the (most) important things are technical things anyway
<knome> eg. if something could affect other flavors
<knome> or if something from other flavors have affected us
<knome> if not, then send a mail saying "there is nothing to tell you" :P
<TREESofRIGHTEOUS> With 10.10 we have also dropped support for i586 and lower processors, as well as i686 processors without cmov support. 
<TREESofRIGHTEOUS> With 10.10 we have also dropped support for i586 and lower processors, as well as i686 processors without cmov support. This is an issue for older computers... help I can't use Xubuntu anymore
<mr_pouit> you have to use another distribution
<mr_pouit> (this is not xubuntu specific, it was a decision taken for ubuntu as a whole)
<TREESofRIGHTEOUS> Yeah but Xubuntu is supposed to be for older computers
<TREESofRIGHTEOUS> Or is that the unsupported Lubuntu team?
<mr_pouit> Lubuntu is supported, and has the same minimum processor requirement
<TREESofRIGHTEOUS> So what Ubuntu flavour is there for the older computers?  Lucid Puppy??  :)
<debfx> do you want to have gstreamer0.10-gconf on the xubuntu cd? currently it's pulled in by gstreamer0.10-plugins-good but I want to drop the dependency since it pulls gconf and gtk3 onto the kubuntu cd.
<madnick> are we gonnna have a meeting today?
<knome> is there something to tell the other teams to bevare, or something that they did which affected us in the last 7 days?
<knome> err, beware
<knome> micahg, madnick, mr_pouit: ^ ?
<madnick> knome: i was thinking of uploading my stuff to LP after this weekend, dunno if its relevant
<madnick> I will start with the plymouth stuff after
<knome> madnick, we can note them about that
<madnick> So, I guess i have some progress
<madnick> on that
<knome> mmh
<knome> could you send the email?
<knome> i have a flu and can't think very logically
<knome> at least in english
<madnick> I could, but I don't know how to layout it, and im not sure what to write :P
<knome> just use the layout i used the last time
<knome> and just tell them what you're about to upload next week
<knome> they're just regular people
<madnick> i supose
<madnick> nobody has anything else to add?
<micahg> knome: madnick: mr_pouit: idk about the last 7 days, but we're oversized now since python3 is now being pulled in by lsb-release now
<knome> madnick, that would be cool to add
<knome> micahg, it was just 64, right?
<Unit193> That's what he said last night
<micahg> knome: yes
<micahg> I think python3 being supported is a release goal, so we'll have to deal with it
<knome> mmyeah
<micahg> but I wanted to wait for the meeting to take any action unless it's preventing testing
<knome> aren't they going to drop p2?
<micahg> in which case I'll drop a langpack
<micahg> knome: no
<knome> :|
<micahg> 2.7 and 3.2 will be on the CD most likely
<micahg> we'll also have GTK2 and GTK3 and webkitgtk-1.0 and webkitgtk-3.0
<madnick> im using -3.0
<madnick> hehe
<madnick> ill send the email, but its not really much information in it .P
<knome> madnick, do you think there was last week? :P
<madnick> No, and i felt really bad for sitting there, with alot of people having tons of ideas and reports
<madnick> and im like "here" then ".."
<madnick> :(
<knome> hah, we don't have to have ideas
<knome> as jono said, most ubuntu developers probably aren't interested in xubuntu
<knome> so, so what?
<knome> we'll create a good os.
<madnick> okay, ive sent it
<Unit193> knome: I like it, and that's all that matters to me (Well, having the devs like it would help make it better for me ;) )
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-16
<madnick> hi
<madnick> knome: i have major internet connection problems today
<madnick> i will try to be at the meeting that starts now, but i cant guarantee i can represent us, as i dont know if i will keep connected
<scott-work> anyone had any trouble with wireless applet in testing precise?
<scott-work> ubuntu studio had a bug on the applet not showing up when testing ubuntu studio on a laptop
<knome> madnick, no problems
<pleia2> http://linuxblog.darkduck.com/2011/12/xubuntu-1110-it-came-to-stay.html
<pleia2> I swear I'll collect all the links I post in here and put them on the site soon (maybe tomorrow!)
<baizon> :D
<baizon> nice :D
<knome> pleia2, too bad they are showing the old logo
<pleia2> knome: yeah :(
<pleia2> hopefully our new site will stop people from using it
<knome> hehe
<knome> i hope
<baizon> hehe
<baizon> you dont need to hope :D
<baizon> you can be sure :D
<knome> maybe we could point users to the new logo from the old site too
 * knome is not sure if he is fine or not
<knome> (flu)
<pleia2> I tried getting the theme updated with the new logo, but gave up
<pleia2> not worth nagging cody and IS more when we should just move forward with wp
<knome> pleia2, yeah, but i meant content-wise
<knome> pleia2, just add a link
<pleia2> there is a link on the marketing page I think
<knome> maybe add one to the frontpage? :/
<knome> don't know
<knome> afk again
<pleia2> yeah maybe, I'll think about it
<pleia2> hope you feel better
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-17
<Android1435> Hello
<Android1435> Are there any XUbuntu devs here?
<Android1435> Any experts?
<Android1435> Anyone at all that can help?
<Android1435> Anybody even on this channel?
<holstein> Android1435: usually folks just fire away with a question.. you might want to go to the other channel
<holstein> the normal support channel
<Android1435> Hey, I don't mind firing away.
<Android1435> If that's how things are done..
<holstein> !ask
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience
<holstein> ^^ thats how things are typically done
<Android1435> Got'cha
<Android1435> I am having issue with certain keys on my keyboard under certain situations. Under Putty, the control key does not work. In other programs, the control key does not function properly. under firefox, control key does function correctly, and on the desktop.
<holstein> Android1435: i havent had any issues, though i havent tried putty on linux... do you think it could be a keymap issue?
 * holstein needs to crash... if it were me, i might try live CD"s to confirm its not a hardware issue (broken key) and test some different keymaps
<Android1435> I recently switched from mint and don't believe there was any issue there. It was running over Ubuntu 11.10. I'm not sure about keymap, but everything should be default configuration
<Android1435> I've even tried other terminal program, and control key won't work within it as well. Defiantly not a keyboard issue(hardware). Also, Ctrl+C often wont copy text either.
<holstein> feel free and try the support channel though... #xubuntu
<Android1435> thanks
<holstein> Android1435: you can try the mint live CD and confirm that its not a hardware issue
<holstein> that is the constant, and that needs to be ruled out
<knome> jono, is there going to be a follow-up blog post on experience teams, if not, would you be so kind to expand in detail how the experience teams differ from the current functional teams?
<jono> knome, there will be a follow up post
<jono> not much time to chat now though, prepping to head out
<jono> will follow up later
<knome> okay, worksforme
<knome> i hope ChristopherNG will keep to #xubuntu-offtopic in the future with non-support things. if not, feel free to bump him quite, but not totally gently
<astraljava> knome: I hear ya.
<knome> and feel free to ping me if he doesn't seem to get the idea ;)
<astraljava> knome: ACK.
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-18
<beelzebobby> Can someone in here help me with a question on QA testing?
<GridCube> beelzebobby, what seems to be the problem?
<beelzebobby> No problem. I just wanted to know - since I've had trouble finding anything about this in the wikis and FAQs on contributing - if QA testing can be done by virtualization or if it has to be on "real" hardware?
<GridCube> both are good
<GridCube> just state that you did a vbox test on the comments 
<beelzebobby> Okay, thanks. I'd really like to contribute but I don't really have a spare box or partition. In that case, I'll get to testing. Thanks again :)
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> no problem
<GridCube> i do all my tests on vboxes
#xubuntu-devel 2012-12-10
<mr_pouit> micahg: I'm more or less unavailable until thursday, so feel free to process the merge request for the seeds (im-* stuff to fix dailies), i.e. don't wait for me :P
<knome> i just heard the xubuntu images have hard time building
<micahg> mr_pouit: ok, cjwatson took care of it, I was just added to the image mails, so, I'll try to keep an eye on it
#xubuntu-devel 2012-12-11
<salepetronije> Hello. I worked on the translation xfce 4:10 in Serbian. Translation not included upstream, because we were late. Is it possible to pack the Serbian in Xubuntu? I'll give links to transifx xfce where the officially unofficial translation, if it is possible to do.Sorry for poor English.
<salepetronije> https://translations.xfce.org/languages/l/sr/
<GridCube> knome, ^
<salepetronije> I do not want to bore you, but: I asked a question about the Serbian translation in Xubuntu XFCE 4:10. Please, at least, say, whether it's in the right place :) Thanks.
<pleia2> salepetronije: I don't know the answer and someone already pinged the project lead, he doesn't seem to be around right now
<salepetronije> thank you @pleia2.
<salepetronije> I'll wait to see the result
<micahg> salepetronije: as the translations are per package, that makes it very difficult to include them in previous releases, if you've got the changes committed upstream, we'll get the translations as the upstream components make new releases
<micahg> I'd be open to changing the way that Xubuntu handles translations, perhaps in a similar way to Kubuntu, but would need to discuss with mr_pouit who's afk, might make for a nice agenda item for our community meeting...
<salepetronije> xfce 4.10 is frozen. The only way is to add a source of translation to the source code of xfce 4.10 and compile again.
<micahg> we'd probably also need buy in from Debian, otherwise, we're stuck with all the overhead
<micahg> right, but instead of just uploading a serbian xfce langpack, we need to reupload all of the xfce packages (which is about 15 in this case)
 * micahg adds an agenda item
<micahg> salepetronije: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings, it's on the agenda now, thanks
<salepetronije> Thanks for the effort :) 
<knome> i have nothing against getting the serbian translations to the repositories
<knome> i'm wondering what the question is :)
<micahg> not if, how
<knome> you got to bribe mr_pouit 
<salepetronije> Original question: Hello. I worked on the translation xfce 4:10 in Serbian. Translation not included upstream, because we were late. Is it possible to pack the Serbian in Xubuntu? I'll give links to transifx xfce where the officially unofficial translation, if it is possible to do.Sorry for poor English. https://translations.xfce.org/languages/l/sr/
<knome> maybe a few barrel's of beer and a boar's head
<micahg> I already answered that
<micahg> or at least I thought I did
<knome> :)
<knome> anyway, dinner now
<knome> see you later
#xubuntu-devel 2012-12-12
<scott-work> knome: good post!
<knome> scott-work, thanks :)
<maddernick> ochosi: ping
<ochosi> maddernick: pong
<maddernick> ochosi: in your blueprint, have you figured out a way to get wallpaper scaling and pass it along to plymouth?
<ochosi> maddernick: i've only looked at the plymouth code briefly so far, but it seems very do-able, yes
<maddernick> ochosi: well you dont have FS access, you would need to pass an argument to plymouth (not to scale, but to get the current scaling)
<ochosi> maybe there's a misunderstanding:
<ochosi> what i want to do is make plymouth scale wallpapers like the "auto"-mode in xfdesktop
<maddernick> oh, so you dont want it scaled however the user makes the setting?
<ochosi> no, i just want a better default, that's all
<maddernick> gotcha
<maddernick> :)
<ochosi> i don't think it's really an interesting setting :)
<ochosi> you can't easily change the wallpaper in plymouth anyway
<maddernick> nope
<ochosi> maddernick: so do you wanna work on the plymouth theme?
<maddernick> ochosi: well, i should fix a "bug" in it i figured, as for scaling i could do too if you'd like
<ochosi> maddernick: yeah, would be nice!
<maddernick> ok, will do :)
<ochosi> i'm still quite busy with parole, display-dialog and artwork-stuff
<ochosi> so i'm always happy to share some of my work with others ;)
<maddernick> oki
<maddernick> ;)
<Crazyusb> Hi
#xubuntu-devel 2012-12-13
<mr_pouit> knome: the latest tumbler (0.1.26, I haven't packaged it yet) uses gst1.0, so we'll be more oversized again (we still need gst0.10 for the rest).
 * GridCube thinks: more reasons for larger iso images
<mr_pouit> Could someone on precise confirm that the fix for Bug #908926 (precise-proposed) works fine? Thanks.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 908926 in lightdm-gtk-greeter (Ubuntu Precise) ""Large Font" style option does not work" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/908926
<GridCube> how should i check?
<mr_pouit> GridCube: install lightdm-gtk-greeter from -proposed, restart, and check the "Large font" checkbox in the top panel menu.
<mr_pouit> if the font size changes, it works :)
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> brb
<GridCube> large fonts works
<mr_pouit> awesome, thanks! Can you add a comment to the bug report?
<GridCube> (but it really messes up the login dialog on my screen 1024x720)
<mr_pouit> yeah, it's a bit messy, but at least the option works (for people who need it)
<GridCube> :) yes it does
<GridCube> need me to comment on the bug?
<mr_pouit> yeah, to confirm that the proposed package works
<GridCube> ok
<knome> mr_pouit, ok for "alpha-time" at least
<GridCube> mr_pouit, do i mark it as "verification done"?
<mr_pouit> GridCube: feel free to change the tag, indeed
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> :) done mr_pouit 
<mr_pouit> thanks!
<ochosi> there ya go, mr_pouit is back and bugs are getting fixed
<ochosi> mr_pouit: in all fairness, we don't _have to_ ship the tumbler-plugins package ;) but true, one more reason for oversizedness...
#xubuntu-devel 2012-12-16
<ochosi> mr_pouit: if gparted suddenly appears in the settings-manager because of wrong categories in the desktop-file, we file a bug in gparted, right?
<bluesabre> makes sense to me
<mr_pouit> yeah
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-09
<Unit193> micahg, mr_pouit: https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/+activereviews
<elfy> Noskcaj: hi :) 
<elfy> is your ppa good to go now?
<ochosi> elfy: as far as i followed that discussion between brainwash and ali1234 there are some new problems with gtk3 indicators in trusty
<ochosi> i don't know whether they have to (or will) be tackled upstream or in the xfce-plugin
<ochosi> i hope the other two can shed some light on this (was pretty absent over the weekend)
<slickymaster> morning all
<knome> morning slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi, knome 
<knome> slickymaster, you're not joining #ubuntu-doc by default?
<slickymaster> knome, at work no. As I'm behind a proxy I can't use IRC clients, just by web browser and I have to join individually each of the channels 
<slickymaster> at home yes, it's by default
<knome> slickymaster, aha :)
<knome> slickymaster, if you join, i could use some of your insight
<slickymaster> I'm there
<elfy> ochosi: ok - thanks for letting me know :)
<brainwash> elfy: the PPA is ready for testing, but there seems to be something wrong with the launch mechanics of indicators in trusty, dbus activation has been removed partially which might result in a race condition
<elfy> not much point in testing something that isn't what we'll actually end up with imo
<brainwash> you will need to set the env var INDICATOR_ALLOW_NO_WATCHERS=yes
<ali1234> yeah there is: you can still test that the indicators actually work
<brainwash> and the sound indicator icon is sometimes missing/invisible
<ali1234> the whole thing is still actively changing btw
<elfy> brainwash: what I am actually after is a position in which I can tell people install this PPA and you can check the gtk3 inds
<elfy> not something that is half here, half there and not the same as yesterdya or tomorrow
<brainwash> well, it should work in saucy just fine I guess
<brainwash> or you mean testing in trusty?
<elfy> once it's ready for testing - properly - then we can do something
<elfy> brainwash: I have no interest in saucy 
<ali1234> complain at tedg in #ubuntu-desktop
<elfy> not run it for a couple/few weeks now - I'm interested in getting testing sorted for trusty
<elfy> ali1234: IU'm not complaining at all 
<brainwash> but still it would help to test this stuff now instead of waiting
<elfy> in trusty yes 
<ali1234> test it in trusty -> find out it doesn't work properly -> complain to tedg until he fixes it
<elfy> anyway - off now - anything else to say can you tell forestpiskie and I'll catch it later
<elfy> probably shouldn't have gone to work but I did ... 
<ali1234> it's curently broken in unity too
<brainwash> really? did not notice that
<ali1234> same race conditions are present
<ali1234> also broken in ubiquity
<brainwash> how does unity even launch the indicator services? I think the autostart files state that they should not be run in the unity session
<ali1234> upstart
<ali1234> that's the whole point
<ali1234> unity emits a signal, upstart catches it and runs all the indicators
<ali1234> then they quit because there's no watchers
<brainwash> oh
<brainwash> should xubuntu do the same?
<brainwash> via upstart I mean
<ali1234> it can do, but currently that just makes them get run twice
<ali1234> it's easy to emit the signal, i coded it
<brainwash> right, such a mess =S
<ali1234> but there's no point, it does not fix the problem
<ali1234> yes
<brainwash> any ideas how to debug the missing sound indicator icon?
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> other than the usual add printfs everywhere until you find something that is wrong
<brainwash> yeah, maybe I'll do that
<jjfrv8> ochosi, can you check out the Preferences section of the xfdesktop docs when you get a chance?
<jjfrv8> ochosi, and can you explain how the "transparent" option is supposed to work? It doesn't have any controls and I don't understand what can be behind the desktop to show through.
<knome> hey jjfrv8 :)
<jjfrv8> hi, kno
<jjfrv8> *knome
<knome> me me
<knome> jjfrv8, just cheking, are you subscribed to the ubuntu-doc@ mailing list?
<knome> (i don't think you necessarily need to be, or asking you to subscribe, just want to know if you are)
<jjfrv8> negative. I just looked over there at your discussion this morning, though.
<knome> oki
<knome> it seems to be quite high traffic list
<jjfrv8> I should probably look in on it
<knome> we've mainly worked on the community help wiki lately
<jjfrv8> knome, I also saw that you were working with slickymaster on the 13.10 slideshow bug...
<jjfrv8> and that you assigned bug 1213933 to the -doc team
<ubottu> bug 1213933 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Slideshow recommends trying out environment which isn't present" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1213933
<jjfrv8> I'd like to try to fix it but don't know how to do the slideshows
<knome> jjfrv8, i did. that's the most appropriate team :)
<knome> ok, do you have time now, and i can guide you through it?
<jjfrv8> yup
<knome> ok, let me finish this email and i'll get back to you in 5
<jjfrv8> ok
<brainwash> jjfrv8: maybe the transparency of the label below the desktop icon?
<jjfrv8> brainwash, still not sure, which label?
<brainwash> it's 100% transparent since I'm using xfdesktop 4.11
<brainwash> the label containing the name
<brainwash> like "Tash"
<brainwash> "Trash"
<jjfrv8> I can see where they are transparent, but my understanding was that the desktop color itself was supposed to be transparent to things behind *it*
<jjfrv8> that's kind of the way the 4.10 docs explained it
<brainwash> does that make sense?
<brainwash> so it's basically a setting like saturation of the wallpaper
<knome> jjfrv8, ping me when you're done with this discussion
<jjfrv8> brainwash,"when you use a colored background without backdrop image, allows you to see the windows that are under the transparent desktop window."
<jjfrv8> that's the 4.10 explanation
<brainwash> feel free to end it, I have no clue anyway :)
<jjfrv8> thanks.
<jjfrv8> ok, knome
<knome> jjfrv8, ok
<knome> so, the project that has the slideshows is https://launchpad.net/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<knome> the branch itself is naturally: lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<knome> 'bzr branch lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu' to fetch that
<knome> you're familiar with this, right?
<jjfrv8> yes
<knome> in the branch, you basically only want to touch files inside slideshows/xubuntu/slides/
<knome> those are the 8 (9) html files that are shown for the user during installation
<knome> in this case, we'd want to modify this file: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubiquity-slideshow/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/html/view/head:/slideshows/xubuntu/slides/00_welcome.html
<jjfrv8> well it happened. I finally got bit by the lp name change :(
<knome> hmm?
<jjfrv8> permission denied. no such lp account jjfrv8-gmail
<knome> ah
<knome> that's fixable
<knome> just a sec and i'll find the necessary info
<knome> edit ~/.bazaar/bazaar.conf
<knome> basically just update launchpad_username
<knome> then try again
<jjfrv8> just a sec
<knome> good day elfy :)
<elfy> on and off - on at the moment :)
<elfy> managed to get to work today and the meds have started working now 
<knome> good, hope they work for you
<jjfrv8> ok, had to do authentication.conf as well. fetching now
<knome> cool
<jjfrv8> ls
<jjfrv8> oops
<knome> hehe
<jjfrv8> got it
<knome> ok, so look at /slideshows/xubuntu/slides
<jjfrv8> ok
<knome> 17:22  knome: those are the 8 (9) html files that are shown for the user during  installation
<knome> (sorry for rushing...)
<knome> those files are pure html
<jjfrv8> ok, I see the welcome one that has the offending version number
<knome> there's already a merge proposal for that
<jjfrv8> oh yeah, we're not working on that :)
<knome> but yes, simply edit the file
<knome> you are usually fine editing stuff that's insde the div with the class "content"
<knome> now, as a test, udpate the version number
<knome> and save the file
<jjfrv8> yup
<knome> then open a terminal for the root for that branch
<knome> and type: ./test-slideshow.sh xubuntu
<knome> (you can tabcomplete with ./te[tab] ...)
<knome> this will basically allow you to preview the changes
<jjfrv8> might have to do this on another machine? ./Slideshow.py: /usr/bin/python3: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
<knome> hmm.
<knome> you'll have to install stuff.
<knome> let me figure out what
<knome> what xubuntu version are you running on that machine?
<jjfrv8> P
<knome> is the package "python3" available?
<knome> i guess it should
<knome> installing that should fix your problem
<knome> because using the parameter on the script directly should avoid the need of zenity
<jjfrv8> yes, that pkg is available
<jjfrv8> File "./Slideshow.py", line 4, in <module> from gi.repository import GLib, Gdk, Gtk, WebKit
<jjfrv8> ImportError: No module named gi.repository
<knome> humpf
<knome> try apt-get build-dep ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<knome> not sure if that helps..
<knome> but i can't check because obivously i have all the packages
<jjfrv8> nope, same error
<knome> bah.
<slickymaster> knome: by the way and regarding https://launchpad.net/bugs/1213933 I didn't manage to find the slide that contains the text mentioned in the bug description
<knome> try installing python3-gi
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1213933 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Slideshow recommends trying out environment which isn't present" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<jjfrv8> k
<knome> slickymaster, that's in 00_welcome.html, last paragraph
<jjfrv8> woohoo
<knome> slickymaster, at the moment, there is no way to probe if the user is on the live mode, or the direct install mode
<jjfrv8> you da man
<knome> jjfrv8, cool, so it works? :)
<jjfrv8> yup
<knome> slickymaster, you could poke lderan about that though...
<knome> jjfrv8, ok, so that's what you have locally
<slickymaster> knome: i'll annoy him on that 
<knome> jjfrv8, you basically just want to check things do not overlap, or look too tight (we have translations as well, and it's hard to predict how much (more) space they will use)
<knome> jjfrv8, after you're happy with your changes, just follow the normal merge request process
<slickymaster> knome: I could had fix that yesterday with my https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/+merge/198184 proposal
<knome> jjfrv8, and you can mark me as the reviewer.
<jjfrv8> ok
<slickymaster> knome, jjfrv8, do you want me to re-propose or is jjfrv8 doing it?
<jjfrv8> up to knome, might be easier to just have one MP
<knome> slickymaster, no need to, i'll handle that
<slickymaster> ok
<jjfrv8> knome, do you have time for a couple more questions on the BP?
<knome> jjfrv8, sure
<jjfrv8> ok, a couple of the items require a discussion with either -doc or -team. do you have a suggestion on how to convene such a thing?
<knome> jjfrv8, either the -devel mailing list or the irc meeting
<knome> jjfrv8, starting the discussion in the mailing list is probably a good idea, then add an item in the meeting agenda (preferably for a meeting you can attend) to discuss it further
<knome> and ideally, leave a week or so time in between so people have time to read and reply
<jjfrv8> alrighty
<jjfrv8> and what about these reports we're supposed to be doing
<knome> jjfrv8, pleia2 did them for last month, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports/13/November for that
<knome> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports for the current report
<knome> they are mostly gathered from the meeting minute "team updates"
<elfy> hi jjfrv8 
<jjfrv8> hey, elfy. glad you're feeling a little better
<elfy> thanks :)
<jjfrv8> knome, oh, I thought each subteam was supposed to be doing reports
<knome> jjfrv8, well yeah... during the meetings :)
<jjfrv8> i misunderstood. happens a lot :)
<elfy> jjfrv8 can join my special team then :)
<knome> elfy, hah ;)
<slickymaster> Gotta go. Be back after dinner
<slickymaster> night all
<slickymaster> lderan, presently, when installing, there is no way to probe if the user is on the live mode or the in direct install mode
<slickymaster> lderan, do you think that something could be done to circumvent this?
<lderan> its a possibility, to what end tho?
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1213933
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1213933 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Slideshow recommends trying out environment which isn't present" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<slickymaster> exactly
<slickymaster> thanks Unit193 
<lderan> ah i see
<Unit193> *Technically* all you'd have to do is check /proc/cmdline for only-ubiquity, right?
<Unit193> Not saying that's the best way though.
<lderan> shall look into it :)
<slickymaster> afk
<Unit193> ochosi: Action required for bug 1223808
<ubottu> bug 1223808 in gmusicbrowser (Ubuntu) "gmbrc misses line to activate albuminfo-plugin" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1223808
<ali1234> oh wooooow
<ali1234> see this bug: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10384
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10384 in General ""Always on top" windows steal focus after notification is displayed." [Normal,New]
<ali1234> it's actually this bug (in gtk) https://mail.gnome.org/archives/commits-list/2013-November/msg02758.html
<knome> ali1234, have you got a patch for it? ;)
<ali1234> no patch needed
<ali1234> gtk already fixed it
<knome> heh, ok
<knome> good then
<ali1234> although to be honest xfwm4 could be smarter about it
<ali1234> basically it boils down to there's one hint that says "never give me focus" and another one that says "give me exclusive focus"
<ali1234> and gtk was stupid enough to set them both at the same time
<knome> :P
<knome> bah, i should take down my second monitor tomorrow
<knome> oh oops, -devel
<ochosi> hey ali1234 
<ali1234> hi
<ochosi> how's it going?
<ochosi> i read a lot of stuff in the backlog over the weekend
<ochosi> is the indicator-stuff going to be fixed in the stack or will there be more changes in the xfce plugin?
<ochosi> i also read something in -desktop that indicators will now optionally be launchable via upstart *and* dbus
<ali1234> the indicators should get fixed in the stack
<ali1234> how is not yet decided
<ochosi> ok, well that's at least partly good news
<ochosi> so the xfce plugin will remain as it is for now?
<ali1234> yeah
<ochosi> ok, that sounds nice
<ochosi> i also read you were considering to work on the xfwm4 compositor wrt syncing
<ali1234> yeah
<ali1234> i'm trying to fix this focus bug at the moment though
<ali1234> it looks like xfwm4 is actually behaving totally correctly and it really is a pure gtk bug
<ochosi> that sounds really nice, i tried the vblank stuff with nvidia and here it's terrible
<ali1234> heh, vsync
<ochosi> oh, but will gtk2 bugs still get fixed/patches merged
<ali1234> i don't know
<ochosi> oops, yeah sync to vblank or whatever nvidia called it
<ochosi> so wait, the same bug exists in gtk2 that was just fixed in gtk3.10?
<ali1234> i guess so
<ali1234> the xfce-notifyd sets accept focus false, ans xfwm4 sees it as a TAKE_FOCUS window
<ali1234> which means the window will manage it's own focus
<ochosi> wow, quite the long standing issue...
<ali1234> but it doesn't
<ochosi> wonder why no-one ever noticed it
<ali1234> maybe xfwm4 really is at fault here
<ali1234> because you need a really weird edge case to find it
<ali1234> open two terminals, set one always on top, run "notify-send hello" in the other one
<ali1234> focus jumps to the always on top terminal when the notification closes
<ochosi> hm
<ochosi> does sound like a bit of a corner case
<ali1234> about vsync: i talked with the compton developer yesterday
<ali1234> there's a lot of ways to implement vsync, and which ones are available depends on the driver you use
<ali1234> nvidia doesn't support drm and this is the only vsync method in xfwm4
<ochosi> hm, i see
<ali1234> the only other method which is any good is to use opengl double buffering
<ali1234> but opengl compositing is really slow with nvidia
<ochosi> does compton do that?
<ali1234> yes it does
<ochosi> hm, yeah, it did feel a bit slow here
<ali1234> but it will basically halve your framerate
<ochosi> i never used it for long for that reason
<ochosi> hmpf
<ali1234> so i have a plan to fix it
<ali1234> use xrender to composite the windows and then do the final draw with opengl
<ochosi> that sounds more than lovely
<ochosi> ah
<ali1234> this is a bit complicated though
<ochosi> and that works with "any" driver?
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> it will work with nvidia though
<ali1234> on everything else you can use drm
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> so xfwm4 or the user will have to figure out what driver is in use
<ochosi> is nouveau any better with all of this?
<ali1234> it supports drm
<ali1234> but i can't use it
<ochosi> me neither
<ochosi> power management is totally out of control with it, it seems
<ali1234> my card just freezes after about 30 minutes
<ali1234> maybe it overheats
<ali1234> i dunno, but it is unusable
<ochosi> also have problems with suspending
<ochosi> with nvidia it seems fine, with nouveau, not so much
<andrzejr> ali1234, I hope RENDER <0.11 is good enough for that, or at least this feature is going to be optional.
<ali1234> RENDER isn't involved directly
<ali1234> andrzejr: btw, what did you find for XRenderCreateSolidFill?
<andrzejr> just like #cairo guys suspected the culprit was RENDER <0.11, haven't filed a bug report yet, though.
<andrzejr> I was referring to "use xrender to composite the windows and then do the final draw with opengl"
<ali1234> yeah i know
<ali1234> and i was refering to whether your RHEL machine has XRenderCreateSolidFill, which i just added to xfwm4...
<andrzejr> ah, OK. I wasn't aware of it. I will check you version when I have some time.
<ali1234> also, do you know anything about the focus mechanics inside xfwm4?
<ali1234> i'm pretty sure this is Wrong, but i don't know how to fix it
<andrzejr> nope, sorry
<andrzejr> I have a long list of issues with xfwm4, mostly things like handling multiple monitors, newly added tiling, some weirdness with windows moving/shrinking when changing themes etc.
<andrzejr> If you are going to give xfwm4 some time that would be much appreciated.
<ochosi> +1
<ali1234> i wish i knew what this "pending_focus" var was actually supposed to mean
<ali1234> it's the key to all of this, because the notify window gets set in pending_focus, but never takes focus (because it is given control of whether to take it or not)
<ali1234> but then when it closes, because it is pending, xfwm4 acts as if it actually was the focused window
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-10
<andrzejr> ask ofourdan?
<ochosi> yeah, a direct email might help
<andrzejr> ali1234, reported that cairo issue in https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72551
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 72551 in xlib backend "X/RENDER error with blend mode operators" [Normal,New]
<ali1234> hmm i htink i figured it out
<ochosi> you did?
<ali1234> maybe
<ali1234> i need to write a test program or something
<ochosi> is notifyd not good enough?
<ali1234> well it's outside my control
<ali1234> weirdly, this does not happen with my test program...
<ali1234> does xfce-notifyd use gtk2 or gtk3?
<ali1234> maybe it never was a bug in gtk2
<ochosi> gtk2
<ali1234> hmmmm
<ali1234> that gtk patch got reverted anyway
<ali1234> hmm, that patch is bonkers, actually
<ali1234> so... xfwm4 must be doing something... silly
<ali1234> er, i mean the notifyd
<ochosi> so rather than being a corner-case with xfwm4, it's a bug in notifyd?
<ali1234> both probably
<ali1234> this is super confusing
<ali1234> every window has TAKE_FOCUS
<ali1234> but for most windows this doesn't cause a problem
<ali1234> maybe because the client doesn't quit... hmm
<ochosi> so if i understand you correctly, the focus goes back to the next instead of back to the "previous" window after notifyd exits
<ali1234> er... kind of, but no
<ali1234> notifyd opens a window, focus doesn't change
<ali1234> notifyd closes window, focus jumps to "top most" window
<ali1234> when really it should stay the same
<ali1234> but i can't reproduce this with a test program, so it's not caused by that gtk bug
<ali1234> if i just open a window with no focus it doesn't happen
<ali1234> so it must be something else
<ochosi> sounds like it's notifyd specific then
<ochosi> g2g, night everyone
<ali1234> ah ha
<ali1234> it's one of the other hints that does it...
<ali1234> night :)
<ali1234> keep_above
<ali1234> yeah, it happens if the window is no_focus and keep_above
<ali1234> ok, so i guess i was totally looking in the wrong place all this time
<ali1234> argh... this is a tricky one
<ali1234> right, i see the problem
<ali1234> if a window with above and no accept focus opens on a different layer to the current focus, it triggers a spurious focus change event
<ali1234> anyone know where i can find the old svn for xfwm4?
<ali1234> oh, nvm, it's all on the git
<ali1234> hmm... actually i need the old cvs :(
<ali1234> ok, so #gtk+ clued me in on how to fix the focus stealing in a better way
<ali1234> fixed it in xfce4-notifyd
<ali1234> the focus code in xfwm4 has so many workarounds and dodgy hacks i don't even know where to start
<ali1234> anyway, by using override-redirect on the notify windows, this stops the window manager from seeing them at all. and so they don't interfere with anything
<elfy> skellat: when you're about later today can you ping me please
<ochosi> ali1234: that sounds quite reasonable, can't think of a reason the notifications should steal the window focus at all
<ochosi> jjfrv8: hey there! was pretty much afk over the weekend so i'm just looking at the prefs in the xfdesktop-docs now
<ochosi> jjfrv8: as you don't seem to be here now, i'll write up my thoughts/notes on a separate wiki page
<ochosi> jjfrv8: for my comments, see http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs:preferences:comments
<ochosi> jjfrv8: great work on the prefs, there are just some issues we need to iron out, we can also discuss the transparent-option together when we're both around
<lderan> good morning all :D
<bluesabre> ali1234: that would fix one of my biggest gripes :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: you mean the tearing with xfwm4 compositor?
<bluesabre> notifications making me lose focus in my current window for a brief moment
<ochosi> ah
<slickymaster> morning all
<ochosi> morning
<bluesabre> hey slickymaster
<slickymaster> ochosi, bluesabre hi
<slickymaster> I haven't forgot xfdesktop documentation :)
<ochosi> no worries ;)
<ochosi> i just went through jjfrv8's preferences part
<slickymaster> ochosi, we'll have to blame knome on my delay
<slickymaster> ;)
<knome> woot
 * ochosi blames knome 
<knome> huh
<slickymaster> morning knome 
<knome> thanks!
<knome> good day slickymaster 
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'm sometimes wondering whether we should set up a bug-bounty programme somehow
 * slickymaster is safely hidding
<knome> what did i do this time?
<bluesabre> ochosi: tempting, but what would be the bounty, hopefully not money
<knome> bluesabre, well we have some project moolah
<knome> bluesabre, and we can send stickers
<knome> bluesabre, and finnish candy :d
<ochosi> bluesabre: not sure, i think money could work. we could also do other stuff though
<knome> except if my wife eats them first
<ochosi> elementary did some bug-bounty for a geary backport to their luna release
<ochosi> and it was monetary, iirc
<knome> so it should/would be a bounty with a deadline :P
<bluesabre> so many pings! :D
<knome> i read "pigs"
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> :(
<ochosi> oha, gtk3.10 is about to hit the trusty archives
<bluesabre> wha
<bluesabre> I thought trusty was sticking with 3.8?
<bluesabre> so, from a design standpoint, do we want to force disable button images in gtk2 to make those apps match a bit more with gtk3.10?
<bluesabre> and menu images
<ochosi> bluesabre: good question
<ochosi> i'm +1 on button images
<ochosi> i've been using that myself for quite some time now
<ochosi> Unit193: so wait, your session changes seem quite important for 14.04, can a live-session even be started without them?
<jjfrv8> ochosi, good afternoon. Saw your comments on Preferences. Snow day here so I'll be around if you want to set a time to discuss.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: hey there
<jjfrv8> howdy
<jjfrv8> ochosi, do you want to discuss preferences now?
<ochosi> yeah, i can take a few minutes now
<jjfrv8> I think I can do your points 1-4 with no problem but need to ask you about 5 & 6
<ochosi> yeah, especially with 6 i expected that
<ochosi> what version of xfdesktop are you using at the moment again?
<ochosi> 4.11 from the xfce4.12 PPA?
<jjfrv8> yeah, just checked again. xfdesktop4 4.11.1
<ochosi> hm, ok, let me see what i have here then
<jjfrv8> but I've got both the 4.12 and the 4.10 PPAs installed per the recommendation on the archive
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's fine
<ochosi> so for me there's a header stating the workspace-name in the windowlist
<ochosi> i can quickly take a screenshot
<jjfrv8> k, I think that would help
<ochosi> http://imagebin.org/281647
<ochosi> where 1,2 and 3 are workspace names
<ochosi> that seems to be missing in your screenshot
<skellat> elfy: Â¡PING!
<jjfrv8> well, actually, it is there in the last screenshot
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> let me look again
<jjfrv8> I probably should not have combined two settings in one screenshot
<jjfrv8> and I renamed the workspaces to 'primary' and 'secondary'. probably shouldn't have done that either
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> yeah, now i understand
<ochosi> so that's pretty much fine then i guess
<jjfrv8> so I can use the default names and split out all four settings separately
<ochosi> you could put the small screenshots next to each other if you wanna save vertical space
<ochosi> but yeah, it's not terribly important
<jjfrv8> ok, that's an idea
<ochosi> the users can figure these easy settings out themselves too
<ochosi> and you've described them well enough i think
<jjfrv8> the only reason I did the screenshots was the that 4.10 explanations weren't clear to me
<jjfrv8> but I might just be dense :)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> well depends on whether you have ever touched/tried these settings i think
<jjfrv8> that's true
<ochosi> without that it always seems more odd i guess
<ochosi> ok, so point 5
<jjfrv8> yeah
<ochosi> knome did such a wallpaper for xubuntu as a tryout a longer while ago
<ochosi> basically you can use a semi-transparent image, and the color/gradient you set on the desktop will "show through"
<jjfrv8> so the "transparent" setting applies to the image, not the color, right?
<ochosi> no, those are two separate things
<ochosi> i haven't mentioned the transparent option yet in my comments, because i'm not sure myself how that works these days
<ochosi> iirc, it was meant for e.g. the compiz-cube to have a transparent wallpaper
<ochosi> not sure what it currently does
<ochosi> (probably just show the root pixmap)
<ochosi> i have to ask eric_the_idiot about that
<jjfrv8> i couldn't see where it did anything. and there are apparently no opacity controls or anything
<ochosi> yeah, could be that it's even deprecated, i'm not sure and a bit too lazy to dig through the code right now ;)
<ochosi> i'd rather wait for eric to reply
<jjfrv8> sounds good
<ochosi> so let's keep that on our list of open issues
<jjfrv8> sure
<ochosi> what i haven't checked yet, how does this version compare to what's currently in the xfce-docs?
<ochosi> i mean for 4.10
<ochosi> cause it seems to me that we need to keep the 4.10 references there
<ochosi> and e.g. the first screenshot/folder stuff is a rather big departure from the old desktop
<jjfrv8> yeah, the only real diffs are in the first tab, but they are significant
<ochosi> nick said he would like to keep the docs for 4.10 there as well
<ochosi> and only not the diffs to 4.12
<ochosi> so we have to find a way to illustrate that
<jjfrv8> hmm
<ochosi> possibly by first showing the 4.10 screenshot + explanation, then the 4.12 screenshot+explanation
<ochosi> with a <note>This only applies to Xfce4.12</note> or something
<ochosi> in between
<jjfrv8> ok, that makes it a little tricky but I'll see what I can do
<ochosi> i know, it doesn't have to be beautiful, it should mostly be functional i guess
<ochosi> as soon as we have a proposal for that, i'll send an email to nick and eric and ask them for feedback on that
<jjfrv8> ok
<ochosi> i'll cc you and slickymaster and then we'll see what route they wanna go
<ochosi> so let's finalize the prefs-page first and then see
<ochosi> i'll quickly try to tackle the bugs page today
<jjfrv8> by 'finalize' you mean a combo 4.10/4.12 version or just making the changes in your comments today
<jjfrv8> ?
<ochosi> ideally both
<ochosi> but i'm mostly waiting for how the 4.10/4.12 stuff will look
<ochosi> if it looks awful, we need to discuss that with the others
<ochosi> maybe we have to take a different route then
<ochosi> but it'll be mostly copy-paste i assume (either to a separate page or whatnot)
<jjfrv8> ok, I'll see what I can come up with and ping you if I have questions
<ochosi> thanks!
<jjfrv8> thank you!
<ochosi> jjfrv8: btw, the comments are meant as feedback and suggestions, if you don't agree with some of them let me know!
<jjfrv8> thanks, but I think all of the suggestions were good ones.
<ochosi> ok, great
<ochosi> andrzejr, ali1234: any idea why gtk3 indicators in the gtk2 panel would not use symbolic colors for the indicator-icons? (in the menu they seem fine)
<jjfrv8> bbs
<ochosi> andrzejr, ali1234: nvm, seems upstream doesn't support it :/
<Unit193> ochosi: Sure, just AFAIK, won't autostart the live user.
<ochosi> hm, that doesn't sounds very nice
<Unit193> It's not so bad if you know the user is $flavorname.
<elfy> default settings looks to be wrong on the current daily 
<knome> in what way?
<elfy> settings manager apps are in the settings menu or system menu - like they used to be
<knome> hmm
<elfy> and the daily is defaulting to bangla as language
<elfy> at least it boots now
<elfy> not sure which package to put that last one against
<knome> heh
<elfy> knome: you got any idea which package the default language should be reported against?
<knome> not really
<elfy> unless that's xubuntu-default-settings as well
<knome> i guess you could ask in -release though
<elfy> or -bigs
<elfy> s/i/u
<knome> i mean you could ask release if it's probably something they poked that broke it
<knome> there shouldn't be that much anomalies ;)
<elfy> I'd suspect it's tied up with lightdm things they did yesterday/today
<knome> possibly
<elfy> bug 1259662
<ubottu> bug 1259662 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Menus include settings applications" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259662
<elfy> seems to be a lot of people reporting issues with bugs against testcases instead of the package concerned
<elfy> bug 1259525
<ubottu> bug 1259525 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Lubuntu & Xubuntu "Try Ubuntu" asks for password. Does not enter live session." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259525
<Unit193> I've got a merge in for that one, user is xubuntu there is no password.
<Unit193> Oh, I see.
<elfy> Unit193: yea - but it shouldn't ask 
<elfy> but the bug is wrong :)
<elfy> shall slap obrien in the morning :)
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/xubuntu-default-settings/session-fix/+merge/198177 look at the date.
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> so that deals with the username issue I assume
<elfy> still got the menu's as an issue
<Unit193> (Also have the merge request in for Lubuntu, and my goodness they have many sessions...)
<knome> heh
<Unit193> (https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/lubuntu-default-settings/fix-session/+merge/198189)
<Unit193> knome: Can you, or did you review the other one?
<jjfrv8> elfy, yeah there seems to be lots of stuff wrong with this daily - like most of the app shortcuts are missing
<jjfrv8> I haven't had time to do a full post-install test
<elfy> I'm guessing something is awry with the default-settings somewhere
<elfy> but I'm not the person to ask to pin down a package :p
<jjfrv8> did I miss the discussion on the new panel config option that appears on reboot?
<Unit193> Got a shot?
<jjfrv8> I'll have to do another install. give me a few minutes.
<elfy> if you did I missed it as well
<Unit193> !info xubuntu-default-settings trusty | Look at the version, nope.
<ubottu> Look at the version, nope.: xubuntu-default-settings (source: xubuntu-default-settings): default settings for the Xubuntu desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 13.10.5 (trusty), package size 20 kB, installed size 192 kB
<elfy> Unit193 knome - current settings menu http://imagebin.org/281717
<elfy> #wrong :p
<Unit193> elfy: rm -rfv .config && sudo service lightdm restart  check your session, did you get a dialog box when you logged in?
<Unit193> Or, just echo $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS
<Unit193> The point is, you're in session Xfce.
<jjfrv8> Unit193, elfy: http://imagebin.org/281720
<Unit193> Yes, confirmed that it's defaulting to the Xfce session.
<Unit193> (I booted vbox.
<Unit193> )
<Unit193> jjfrv8: If you remove .config and .cache, at the login screen change it to the Xubuntu session (top right button)
<Unit193> ...And it's half English.
<jjfrv8> Unit193, that worked.
<jjfrv8> I told it I wanted it to log in automatically but it ignored that and made me log in on first reboot
<Unit193> elfy: Should I/we/someone link the branches to the bugs?  And the packages are {l,x}ubuntu-default-settins (re: 1259525)
<elfy> Unit193: aaah - right ok - so that default settings thing IS affecting that as well 
<Unit193> Sure, but it boots, not as big of an issue as -gtk-greeter.
<elfy> yep
<elfy> Unit193: I'd assumed you were including that language in this
<brainwash> is the language wrong on first session startup? it used to fall back to non english after a logout from the live session
<elfy> it's wrong at boot to live session - though it is wrong that it's booting to login on live session
<elfy> or #ubuntu-quality
<Unit193> elfy: I have no idea what that is, but could be what the Washer of Brains said.
<elfy> bah
<brainwash> I noticed the described behavior in saucy back then
<brainwash> after a logout the language was set to bengali(?)
<elfy> bangla perhaps
<brainwash> something like that, yes
<elfy> so that's wrong anyway 
<brainwash> so there should already exist a report for this issue
 * elfy votes for fixing the sound indicator and calling saucy trusty and having 6 months off
<brainwash> I prefer the real deal, gtk3 indicators :)
<brainwash> sync indicator and message indicator are awesome
<Unit193> That didn't work as well.
<elfy> I'd prefer lots of things - I'll settle for something that works
<elfy> but as I can't code I'll not whine - I just won't +1 releasing :p
<elfy> in the meantime - I've gtg now
<Unit193> http://unit193.net/dump/xubuntu-14.04-test-i386.iso{.zsync) should be the fixed version of todays daily.
<slickymaster> night all
<ochosi> hey slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi ochosi
<Unit193> brainwash: That's a mighty weird bug, but hitting that one as well as the user one.
<jjfrv8> Unit193, that iso looks much more betterer.
<Unit193> jjfrv8: Yep, it's just the one merge in, though bugs would have to be filed against the other one of course.  Good that it works for you as well.
<jjfrv8> it fixed the automatic login thing too.
<Unit193> Yep, was expected.  The language fix is weird, for sure.  That's still a bug.
<Unit193> Hopefully I didn't mess that up too much: bug 1259525
<ubottu> bug 1259525 in Xubuntu Default Settings "Lubuntu & Xubuntu "Try Ubuntu" asks for password. Does not enter live session." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259525
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-11
<ochosi> Unit193: i think before i can actually merge your stuff, we have to branch off a new version
<ochosi> trunk is still pointing to saucy
<Unit193> ochosi: Likely.  I saw that, yeah.
<Unit193> (This is my form of avoiding a bug report.)
<ochosi> gotta see whether i'm allowed to do that
<ochosi> so far mr_pouit was handling that
<ochosi> god i really don't like bzr
<ochosi> Unit193: i also prefer that to a bugreport btw
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> ochosi: Simple, have bzr autoimport and work with git. :----D
<ochosi> yeah, i'd really prefer that
<Unit193> I'd not be able to merge anymore, though.
<ochosi> yeah, there'd have to be a new merge request against the correct series i guess
<ochosi> as soon as i have read up on the docs on how to do that
<Unit193> I'd presume you can retarget.
<ochosi> andrzejr: it seems like the wrapper3 branch breaks the panel's background settings in general and not just for the gtk3 indicators, can you confirm that? (e.g. alpha or setting a background color)
<ochosi> ali1234: have you noticed that as well? ^
<ochosi> (just to rule out any packaging problems)
<bluesabre> ochosi: I haven't been able to use alpha since the wrapper3 branch
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<ochosi> yeah, as i know/remember now it's a known issue (see recent backlog in #xfce-dev)
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> btw, next week we should start patching xfce4-power-manager with some sort of light-locker support
<ochosi> well, that and logind i guess
<ochosi> what issue are you thinking of specifically?
<ochosi> i thought powermanager uses xflock to lock the session?
<bluesabre> it does, but I think there was something we wanted to add to it
<ochosi> so as long as that is patched, all locking should work fine (light-locker autolocks on suspend)
<bluesabre> (I just don't remember what)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i guess basic 1) logind stuff would be good
<ochosi> and 2) a way of setting X11's screensaver timeout
<bluesabre> also, I don't know when it started working well, but indicator-datetime is definitely A-OK with my panel atm
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> nice to hear
<ochosi> gotta try that one then
<ochosi> evolution-data-server-common is a bit of a nasty dependency though, no?
<bluesabre> yeah, definitely
<ochosi> hm, doesnt work so well here
<ochosi> the time-layout isn't configurable easily
<bluesabre> might be a custom one that I picked up from the cinnamon ppa
<ochosi> and the application links are all broken
<bluesabre> true
<bluesabre> its not perfect :D
<bluesabre> just not as crashy as it used to be
<ochosi> hehe
<ali1234> ochosi: what do you mean?
<ali1234> i set the panel background to an image: only the indicator plugin background changed
<elfy> DanChapman: welcome to a real channel :p
<Noskcaj> hey DanChapman 
<DanChapman> elfy lol :-D
<DanChapman> hey Noskcaj I see you have had another go with autopilot :-)
<elfy> DanChapman: you had any luck getting autopilot working with our apps ? 
<elfy> has anyone ... 
 * elfy has been afi a bit
<DanChapman> elfy are you about later? I wanted to talk to you about exactly that
 * DanChapman has the dreaded school run to deal with
<elfy> I'm off to work in 30 minutes - back ~4ish till late
<elfy> shall I ping you?
<Noskcaj> DanChapman, My autopilot attempt ending in transmission-gtk and xfce both no supporting autopilot, so good work me
<Noskcaj> elfy, If i'm around, ping me too. And i think ld eran is also interested in testdrive
<elfy> Noskcaj: lderan should be interested in autopilot, not sure what the crack is with testdrive - but yea I'll ping anyone I think should be aware 
<Noskcaj> oops, i meant autopilot.
<Noskcaj> stupid brain
<DanChapman> elfy yeah ping me i'll be lurking in the shadows all day today so when ever your free :-)
<elfy> Noskcaj: I've got one of those too :)
<elfy> DanChapman: okey doke
<ochosi> ali1234: i meant this commit, as i later realized: http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/commit/?id=ac4c4e70e7312d133ae3a6885412aa41d9fb11cf
<slickymaster> morning all
<ochosi> morning
<slickymaster> ochosi: read the logs of what you've discussed with jjfrv8 about xfdesktop, yesterday
<ochosi> slickymaster: ah good
<slickymaster> ochosi: today's is dedicated to xfdesktop. I'm putting my wiki.community side project with knome on hold ;)
<ochosi> awesome! :)
<ochosi> i'll try to be available in what is the afternoon here
<lderan> elfy: sounds good, ping away :D
<brainwash> ochosi: abiword ruler broken in trusty, the ruler is partially hidden by a plain grey area
<sergiobenrocha2> hello
<sergiobenrocha2> nvidia-331-updates is not a bumblebee dependency?
<sergiobenrocha2> for trusty?
<sergiobenrocha2> well, bumblebee-nvidia
<ochosi> brainwash: meh, again?
<ochosi> they should really stop breaking that stupid ruler
<brainwash> ochosi: greybird and orion are affected, so it's likely that more/all themes are
<ochosi> brainwash: dunno what version of greybird (i assume you mean greybird?) you have, but i just fixed this a few months ago (again): https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/commit/490f43a76c292652da1f7245f36aa85a64cf273b
<ochosi> if you can, please show me a screenshot of how it looks
<ochosi> so i can say for sure that it's a theme issue
<ochosi> or even better: find a theme with which it works
<ochosi> does it look like this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shimmer-themes/+bug/1043508/+attachment/3282601/+files/abiword.png
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 948128 in abiword (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1043508 Abiword Ruler Text and Ticks White" [Medium,Fix released]
<brainwash> no
<brainwash> the ruler is fine actually, but the top part is covered behind a grey area
<brainwash> wait a minute
<brainwash> also noticed that a right click on the window button panel item opens the context menu, but it's positioned strange, not where you clicked, but from the center of the window button and it's aligned to the left side
<brainwash> new?
<ochosi> yeah
<brainwash> or was it that way all the time?
<ochosi> hm, well
<ochosi> tbh i never use abiword
<ochosi> so i wouldn't really know
<ochosi> i only install it when i have to fix theming bugs in it
<ochosi> but this doesn't really sound like a theming bug in a way
<brainwash> well, I opened to it to debug the xfwm4 "bug" (does not switch between windows of the same application, e.g. Abiword)
<brainwash> ochosi: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/abiword.php
<brainwash> it disappears and reappears occasionally when switching themes
<brainwash> and this also did break greaybird-git now
<brainwash> the gtk3 panel indicator item
<brainwash> it's partially transparent now :D
<ochosi> did you restart abiword after changing themes?
<brainwash> no
<ochosi> gtk3 apps mostly don't work with switching themes without restarting them
<ochosi> in gtk2 that works, but with gtk3 apps you have to restart them
<ochosi> otherwise you get all kinds of funky artifacts
<brainwash> ok, but it's broken initially
<brainwash> and switching themes does fix it occasionally
<ochosi> weird
<ochosi> well it's abiword...
<ochosi> uses lots of weird code and widgets
<brainwash> =S
<ochosi> it's a good reason to discuss whether we should really include it by default in 14.04
<ochosi> or maybe switch to an opt-in model for libreoffice (if that's at all doable in ubiquity)
<ochosi> knome: what do you think? ^
<brainwash> oh man, the libreoffice discussion again :)
<ochosi> :>
<ochosi> bbl
<knome> ochosi, meh
<brainwash> ochosi: do you feel like taking a look at this new ruler issue? or should I just file a report against abiword and gtk3 (3.10)?
<slickymaster> ochosi: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs:usage#background and http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs:usage#icons items of the http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs:usage are done, just remaining the http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs:usage#menus item to be done
<slickymaster> ping me if you feel there's something that needs changes
<slickymaster> jjfrv8: ^^^
<slickymaster> bbl
<elfy> DanChapman: I'm sort of about now
<ochosi> brainwash: well tbh it doesn't really seem to be a theming issue, so not my department ;)
<ochosi> i'd file a regular bug vs abiword and gtk3.10
<ochosi> or possibly just abiword
<brainwash> it worked in unity and lubuntu (only started it once)
<brainwash> so something strange is going on
<brainwash> well, why do I even care about an app which I only open/close and don't use at all
<elfy> I'm not seeing anything odd with abiword here
<brainwash> and libreoffice is getting better and better
<brainwash> could it be caused by the gtk3 indicator panel item?!
<ochosi> nah, that's rather unrelated
<andrzejr> brainwash, ochosi, that menu positioning is another issue with gtk3, and also related to "windows-less" widgets
<ochosi> hey andrzejr 
<andrzejr> hi
<brainwash> andrzejr: ok
<brainwash> ochosi: I know, I need to test and verify it
<brainwash> but elfy cannot confirm it and it does work in unity and lubuntu
<ochosi> so maybe an issue in your setup
<brainwash> like what? I've installed the gtk3 indicator panel item
<brainwash> which also behaves weirdly
<ochosi> andrzejr: it's strange though, we also use eventboxes in parole, i didn't notice any changes with the move to gtk3
<ochosi> andrzejr: i mean stuff like not drawing any background or making the background of the underlying widget transparent
<ochosi> but maybe that's the problem with gtk2+gtk3?
<Unit193> ochosi: So, that's a won't fix type thing? :/
<ochosi> Unit193: you mean the panel background stuff?
<Unit193> Aye.
<ochosi> it's marked as FIXME in the code
<andrzejr> ochosi, maybe that's because of the way the panel handles transparency
<ochosi> possible
<ochosi> i'm tempted to ask "how does it work?", but i don't wanna waste your time
<ochosi> maybe you're right and it's best if nick takes a look at it
<andrzejr> I've been looking into it (background and menu positioning) for quite some time and failed. I roughly know what is going on (so I have added a workaround) but I don't know how to fix it properly.
<ochosi> you could sum up your thoughts in an email to nick, he seems to respond to those more actively than to irc lately
<ochosi> bbiab
<andrzejr> done
<slickymaster> good night all
<Unit193> ali1234: A chance you'll give the option to disable zoom support in Window Manager Tweaks?
<ali1234> Unit193: i don't know how to make options
<ochosi> ali1234: it's not terribly hard, this would be an example (it's a bit noisy and does other stuff too, but i think you'll get the idea): http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?h=ochosi/tabwin&id=142904be056f9d469726848c61d8ff33e97fae4c
<sergiobenrocha2> hello
<sergiobenrocha2> anyone?
<ochosi> !hello
<knome> heh.
<sergiobenrocha2> bumblebee-nvidia from trusty has a dependency problem
<ochosi> hmpf, we should add a factoid for that...
<knome> ochosi, i added one at least for #x!
<knome> i'll ask ubottu
<ochosi> thanks knome 
<sergiobenrocha2> bumblebee-nvidia should depend on nvidia-331 or nvidia-331-updates
<sergiobenrocha2> is it better to try in ubuntu+1 channel?
<ochosi> yeah
<sergiobenrocha2> ok
<ochosi> we're not involved with this kinda stuff at all tbh
<ochosi> i mean the whole nvidia packaging
<brainwash> why not file a bug report on launchpad?
<knome> !hi | ochosi
<knome> hmm.
<ochosi> :]
<knome> !hello | ochosi 
<ubottu> ochosi: Hi!, Welcome to #xubuntu-devel! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines. Enjoy your stay!
<sergiobenrocha2> because my system has lot of stuff that not is official
<knome> !hi | ochosi 
 * knome slaps ubottu
<knome> !usage | ochosi 
<ubottu> ochosi: Hi! I'm #xubuntu-devel's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi | Usage info: http://ubottu.com/devel/wiki/Plugins | Bot channels and general info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots
<knome> !hi | ochosi 
<knome> huh?
<ochosi> hehe
<knome> well it should work.
<ochosi> seems you gotta teach ubottu a lesson
<brainwash> sergiobenrocha2: so? does that matter?
<knome> !hi
<ubottu> Hi!, Welcome to #xubuntu-devel! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines. Enjoy your stay!
<knome> yep.
<knome> just some surge protection probably ;)
<knome> sorry for the mess.
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-12
<slickymaster> knome, quick question
<slickymaster> does bugs with a fix committed status should be added to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-docs?
<knome> slickymaster, if they are related to the trusty translations cycle, yes, even with that status
<knome> helps us see what was done when we release
<slickymaster> they're not related to the translations, but they are directly related to the docs
<slickymaster> bug 1238718 for instance
<ubottu> bug 1238718 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Errors in "Chapter 6. Connecting to Internet and Networks" of the Xubuntu Documentation saucy series" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1238718
<slickymaster> or this one, knome: 1243946
<slickymaster> bug 1243946
<ubottu> bug 1243946 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Duplication of the definite article "the" in the penultimate paragraph of the 'Welcome' section on the Index page" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243946
<knome> slickymaster, yes, they are valid
<slickymaster> I'll add them then
<slickymaster> tks
<knome> np
<slickymaster> I'm off
<slickymaster> cy tomorrow guys
<Unit193> ali1234: Got "Floating point exception" with xfwm4 scroll zoom.
<ali1234> Unit193: yeah
<ali1234> i sent a patch for that to the ml
<ali1234> it's because you have compositor disabled
 * Unit193 checks.
<Unit193> Nope.
<ali1234> then your x server incorrectly reports it's refresh rate; the patch fixes that too
<Unit193> Likely.  Alright, thanks.
<ali1234> https://github.com/ali1234/xfwm4/commit/ce5f008584302362f6374201432f91e3d950715d
<Unit193> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?id=ce5f008584302362f6374201432f91e3d950715d
<ali1234> oh, i guess it was pulled
<ali1234> so you're running with that fix?
<Unit193> Should be, on the tabwin branch that just got master merged in.
<Unit193> git20131211.648537c
<ali1234> well, run it in gdb please
<ali1234> it happens when you zoom in?
<ali1234> tabwin branch doesn't have the fix
<Unit193> Aye.  And gdb with xfwm hung, had to switch to a TTY and kill it.
<Unit193> Oh?
<ali1234> of yeah xfwm will hang in gdb if you build it with full debug
<ali1234> i think there is a breakpoint at startup or something
<ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/log/?h=ochosi/tabwin <- no fix
<Unit193> Anywho, if it's not in, then sorry and I'll shutup.
<ali1234> i'm surprised yoou hit this bug with compositor enabled to be honest
<ali1234> not 100% surprised though, that's why i patched both problems :)
<Unit193> It's crappy graphics, so expected.
<Unit193> (Kind of why I wanted an option. :P )
<ali1234> well, turn off compositing?
<ali1234> does the zoom patch affect speed for you?
<Unit193> Nah, I'll just avoid it.
<ali1234> because it should not
<ali1234> it should not do anything at all unless you zoom in
<Unit193> I think it's fine.
<ali1234> there's a couple of extra if's and that is about it
<Unit193> (X has been running too long, it's slow anyway at 700MB of ram.)
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah, haven't pulled your patch/es yet cause I wanted to wait for them to land in master
<ali1234> well the thing is, they already have
<ali1234> you've pulled some, but not all of them
<ali1234> because i had to make a bugfix two days ago
<ochosi> ali1234: i've only merged what was in master yesterday
<ali1234> no, you haven't, check again :)
<ochosi> oh crap
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> somehow i didnt pull :/
<ochosi> ok, done now
<ochosi> Unit193: just merged the latest master, in case you wanna rebuild your packages
<ochosi> ali1234: anything else i can help with getting you started on the UI for panel-switch?
<ali1234> do my christmas shopping for me?
<ochosi> haha
<ali1234> and also all the other work i'm supposed to do
<ochosi> yeah, i guess that would help me too
<ochosi> i was thinking in terms of whether the mockups i provided so far are sufficient and if you're happy with them
<ali1234> yes i am happy with it
<ali1234> i do have one question: what is that icon in the top right?
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> a save-as button
<ali1234> like "save current"
<ali1234> i think it should be a "+" symbol then, that kinda looks like a download button or somehting
<ochosi> in fact the icon should be slightly different, but it was close enough for a mockup
<ochosi> hmwell, that's the save-icon in our icon-theme atm
<ochosi> you can decide you go for gtk-add instead of gtk-save-as
<ali1234> yeah, we want the "new" icon
<ochosi> right, that's gtk-add then
<ali1234> also, do we really need "apply"
<ali1234> we could have "close" and "revert" (or "cancel")
<ali1234> and have it change the layout as soon as you select a new one
<ali1234> this would also remove the need for screenshots
<ochosi> yeah, i was thinking about that before
<ochosi> it's definitely a good approach
<ochosi> but if you do "live previews" of the panel configs, something like an "apply" button to make clear to the user that his previous config will be gone would make sense to me
<ali1234> i'm no expert on UI design
<ali1234> maybe we should go ask the Ubuntu design clinic :P
<ochosi> haha
<elfy> ali1234: you beat me to the punchline :p
 * ochosi feels sick
<elfy> :(
<ochosi> maybe i need to go to the design clinic ^
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> ali1234: ok, so i guess i'll work on alternative UIs for the panel-switch app then
<ochosi> without screenshot blah and with a revert or apply button
<Unit193> ochosi: I could.
<ali1234> Unit193: if you're packaging, can you also try to enable MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP from the rules?
<ali1234> it's not enabled by default, but it's needed to fix the background flickering
<ochosi> true that
<Unit193> Well in theory this was tabwin, but could.
<ochosi> that would be nice
<ochosi> if you do really nice packaging work on it, maybe we can sneak it into 14.04
<ali1234> it's not a configure option either, so you'll need to add -DMONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP to the gcc command
<Unit193> That's not likely. :P
<ali1234> "somehow"
<Unit193> ali1234: Thanks.. :P
<ali1234> alternatively just patch it in to the source, but i think doing it from the rules is cleaner if possible
<ali1234> i would add it to configure, but i have absolutely no idea how that stuff works
<ochosi> me neither unfortunately
<ali1234> "stop the autoconf insanity" was posted 10 years ago, and it's still true today
<Unit193> ali1234: What should I see with this one? :)
<ali1234> with monitor root pixmap?
<Unit193> Yes.
<Unit193> Everything seems to be working, but I'd like to confirm before uploadin'
<ali1234> well... if you restart xfdesktop (assuming you have the latest version) then you should not see grey background while it restarts
<Unit193> Heh, I do not. :P
<ali1234> when you log in, you should see wallpaper all the time, never any grey - again you need the very latest gtk-greeter too
<ali1234> basically you should never see grey
<ali1234> you can test it is really working by killing xfdesktop repeatedly until it really dies
<ali1234> and then do "hsetroot -solid \#ff0000" - the background should turn red
<Unit193> So, sounds like I'll have to setup a vm and compile from git tomorrow, bleh.
<elfy> lderan: can you update us on autopilot at tonights meeting
<elfy> I'll try and catch ip with DanChapman today 
<lderan> aye that'll be good
<Unit193> I think my eyes will start bleeding if I look much longer at this red...
<ochosi> :)
<Unit193> Technically I said Bug #1245585 in the wrong channel, but he isn't in here.
<ubottu> bug 1245585 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "LiveCD: wrong language selected by default on login screen" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1245585
<slickymaster> morning all
<elfy> good morning slickymaster 
<DanChapman> elfy hey sorry i've completely borked my system upgrading to trusty just gonna reinstall then I will give you a ping :-)
<elfy> ok :)
<slickymaster> ochosi: is this still applicable to xfdesktop: "you can customize your menu by copying ''xfce-applications.menu'' to ''$XDG_CONFIG_HOME/menus''?
<ochosi> good question
<ochosi> eric_the_idiot: ^ ?
<eric_the_idiot> kinda? It is because xfdesktop uses garcon but it should also apply to any other app that does as well (the menu plugin, the whisker menu I imagine)
<ali1234> when i customized my main menu i did not need to copy anything... it just worked
<ali1234> well, except for the bugs in the menu editor... had to work around those
<ali1234> i didn't try to customize the xfdesktop menu though, cos i don't use it
<slickymaster> ok, thanks eric_the_idiot and ochosi 
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'll keep it in the xfdesktop documentation then
<DanChapman> elfy hey o/
<elfy> hi DanChapman - 2 ticks :)
<elfy> knome: https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/Xubuntu_Post_Install/+merge/198724
<elfy> DanChapman: ok - here now :)
<knome> elfy, line 41 </dd>hel
<DanChapman> elfy howdy, so i have had a little play with autopilot and the majority of xubuntu default apps, So there are quite a few that can be done with introspection but also the majority of the apps that can't can still be tested using process manager similar to the current firefox test. Has lderan been working on any tests?
<elfy> DanChapman: I'm not sure - expecting an update today on that 
<lderan> hello DanChapman 
<elfy> DanChapman: so - introspectable = we can get a test to run ?
<lderan> been trying to get a test working on the settings manager
<elfy> knome: thanks
<knome> also some <dl>'s seem to be missing
<elfy> possibly I lost the damned script thing to check it 
<knome> around line 33, and a </dl> in line 31
<knome> heh
<knome> i can deal with that though
<knome> i'm wondering if it made sense to split those tests again...
<DanChapman> elfy nope introspectable is that we can access the properties of the application so click buttons all that business. Now using process manager which is an older autopilot feature basically gives you a view of the application window it relies heavily on keyboard navigation which needs to be done carefully but even simple loading an application and testing window title and a couple of other keyboard shortcuts are always tests worth having
<knome> elfy, one per test, so 7 tests in total
<elfy> knome: not sure what you mean - but frankly I'd rather have 1 test - got more chance of getting testing done then
<knome> elfy, the problem with one test is that if you run the test, but only can run 2 of the optional tests, you have then run 3-4 tests of 7
<elfy> DanChapman: agreed in theory
<knome> elfy, what should you do? mark as passed?
<elfy> knome: true
<DanChapman> elfy the apps we can get proper meaty tests for are gthumb, gnumeric, simple scan, transmission, calc and possibly abiword (depending on getting better access to the drawing canvas) and then ther eis also the current FIrefox evince and fileroller tests to add to that list
<knome> elfy, but everything didn't pass, because you didn't test it
<knome> elfy, so we can (and probably will) end up with skewed test results with that
<lderan> DanChapman, so the xfce apps are the ones that require the introsepctable?
<knome> elfy, also thinking the monitor test could be just moved to the monitor dialog package test
<elfy> knome: frankly I'm getting really cynical about the whole thing - doesn't seem to matter if we have 1 or 1 million tests - hardly anyone bothers doing them anyway
<knome> ;)
<knome> true that
<knome> that's why i thought they might be more worthwhile in the package tests
<knome> but i don't know
<elfy> easy enough to do 
<knome> other partitions and usb drives seem to be important features
<knome> so at least they sound like good to keep on the post-install test
<elfy> I'm happy enough to move away from post install testing and moving the whole shebang to package testing - which is what they really are
<knome> yep
<knome> i would say
<knome> suspend is a bit meh.
<elfy> so in effect we move to images testing as JUST that
<elfy> and everything post install becomes a package test of some sort
<knome> so at least apart from the partitios/usb drive and suspend test, everything could go to package testing
<knome> we can add a link to the post-install test
<knome> saying
<knome> "this is not part of the test itself, but if you have X, run this package test and report results"
<elfy> DanChapman: probably best if you talk to lderan - I'm all at sea wiht it and I handed it over to him :)
<elfy> knome: not really following you here I'm afraid 
<knome> elfy, just a sec
<elfy> are you saying we should have a post install test now? 
<knome> kind of...
<knome> wait! :)
<elfy> putting kettle on ... 
<DanChapman> lderan in theory all Gtk apps 'should' be introspectable, but sadly it would probably end up meaning changes would be needed upstream for it to work. the true xfce like xfce4_screenshooter i had no success getting any of them to launch but I can get them to launch with process manager
<lderan> i've been able to get the app to open but then the test just hangs there until i quit the app manually
<ali1234> what do they actually need to provide?
<DanChapman> lderan process manager offers a limited amout of testable properties see http://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/api/process.html#autopilot.process.Application
<DanChapman> and process.Window
<lderan> thanks for that DanChapman :D
<ali1234> does introspection rely on dbus?
<lderan> will try that out during the lunch hour to see if i have more success
<DanChapman> ali1234 yes it does, see http://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/api/introspection.html?highlight=dbus#autopilot.introspection.dbus 
<ali1234> i don't get it. does that mean every app has to export introspection objects for it's entire gui on dbus?
<DanChapman> Not that i'm aware of, Autopilot creates the objects by polling dbus for the given search criteria
<ali1234> but if the app isn't on dbus...
<knome> elfy, PoC at http://packages.qa.dev.stgraber.org/qatracker/milestones/254/builds/27971/testcases/1569/results
<ali1234> is there some documentation that explains this at high level?
<ali1234> but not so high level as to completely gloss over how it all works
<knome> elfy, some fiddling for the links per cycle will need to be done, but that's minor
<elfy> ok that makes sense to me now :)
<knome> we probably want to talk with balloons if he approves this
<knome> but for me, that would be the best solution
<elfy> knome: I'll catch him later today 
<knome> i've always felt bad when i've marked such test "passed" even if i can't test with all the peripherals
<elfy> yea
<elfy> I know what you mean by that - I find things with bugs and 'pass' them - because I know this or that
<knome> almost the same ;)
<knome> but this avoids that problem
<elfy> but the way the pages are written - any image test will be a fail :p
<knome> :P
<knome> i guess...
<elfy> obviously if it's a 'real' fail I don't pass them :)
<elfy> but that ^^ deals with us nicely I think 
<DanChapman> ali1234, ill just have a look see if I can find any
<knome> yep
<elfy> knome: I'll talk to balloons later today and assuming he's got no issues then I'll do it all properly today/tomorrow and get the new tests on the trackers asap
<ali1234> DanChapman: is the problem that many/most xfce apps are still gtk2?
<DanChapman> ali1234 it should work for both 2/3+, I can't find any docs on a higher level i will prod thomi about it later to find out more
<DanChapman> from what I can see the app needs to be running on either the session or system dbus or custom bus such as on an abstract socket
<DanChapman> ali1234, found something better http://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/appendix/protocol.html?highlight=wire
<ali1234> so that whole interface is somehow made by the gtk library, and the app "shouldn't" have to know about it...
<knome> elfy, the problem is... not all of the tests that we are "linking" to exist..
<elfy> oh
<knome> elfy, and the further problem...
<knome> elfy, we need to link to a specific milestone
<knome> elfy, which is why this testcase would need poking at least once a cycle
<knome> elfy, because the links change every milestone
<elfy> yep - I understoof that to be the case
<knome> the other option is to add a feature to the tracker
<knome> to be able to link to a certain testcase
<knome> and show all available milestones for it
<knome> which would be interesting...
<elfy> indeed :)
<knome> that's possible, but whether stgraber wants to implement that is a different question
<elfy> lol
<knome> i mean ultimately it's just enabling one more view and a simple sql query
<knome> so if not trivial, at least really close
<elfy> ok
<elfy> knome: so - for the time being do we need the things that have no testcase to be tested - especially as they are all optional?
<elfy> can we not - leave the optional part empty of test links for now - and then add them later
<elfy> at least then we know we're getting real passes - not vague ones
<knome> we should probably just not mention those tests at all.
<elfy> so - raise bugs for missing ones, then when we have them all - add them to the testcase
<knome> yep, or even one by one :)
<elfy> or that :)
<knome> sounds like a plan
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> knome: I'll remove the optional tests from that sanbox one then - so I've got an up to date thing to talk to Nick about
<elfy> knome: http://packages.qa.dev.stgraber.org/qatracker/testcases/1569/info
<elfy> hi GridCube 
<GridCube> hi
<knome> elfy, fixed the dl's
<elfy> in what?
<knome> in the link you just sent me
<lderan> DanChapman, i am using the code in the firefox test to open up the settings manager, it opens up okay by then the test crashes saying the  no window was opened
<elfy> knome: oh - ok :) 
<elfy> knome: so assuming that all is ok with Nick - I will create a new testcase against that, add it to tracker - replace the 2 current post install tests with that single one
<elfy> is that right?
<knome> yes... though let's also discuss it in the meeting today before pushing :)
<elfy> yep
<elfy> I'll add it now
<knome> cheeers
<knome> -e
<DanChapman> ali1234, It would appear autopilot hasn't been built against Gtk2 :-( they should probably take that out of the docs. Apparently it wouldn't be too difficult to support it
<DanChapman> lderan hmmm i've not had that with the process manager before. 2 secs i'll boot up a vm
<DanChapman> lderan can you paste the output your getting seems i can;t boot todays image
<lderan> sure
<lderan> DanChapman, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6561437/
<elfy> DanChapman: am I right in saying that all of the xubuntu autopilot image tests are failing?
<DanChapman> they are indeed thay aren't even running due to the bug where the user-session isn't set and not being able to get to the live desktop
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> assumed that to be the case
<DanChapman> elfy same for lubuntu as well 
<DanChapman> lderan thanks, is it xfsettingsd.desktop for the desktop file?
<lderan> xfce-settings-manager.desktop is what i'm using
<DanChapman> ahh ok ill try that
<DanChapman> lderan http://paste.ubuntu.com/6561526/ works for me 'Ran 1 test in 0.475s OK'
<lderan> DanChapman, i will try that later after work
<jjfrv8> slickymaster, I saw your ping about your work on Usage. xfdesktop is kind of different in that there is no separate Preferences menu selection...
<jjfrv8> so that there is unavoidably some overlap between Usage and Prefs
<jjfrv8> I think we'll just have to let ochosi weigh in on whether we're getting it right or not
<jjfrv8> I still have not gotten around to adding the 4.10 stuff to my section
<jjfrv8> ochosi, and I still have one more of your suggestions to address but the rest are implemented
<ochosi> jjfrv8: nice, thanks! i'll try to review it once it's done
<slickymaster> elfy: ping
<elfy> pong
<slickymaster> elfy: the Panel popup added to 1562 testcase card you add on our Trello board
<elfy> yea
<slickymaster> juast a sec
<slickymaster> elfy: back again, sorry but was receiving a strange log from a database here at work
<elfy> :)
<slickymaster> anyway, what i meant to ask you is does that card refers to bug 1256894
<ubottu> bug 1256894 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Hidden panels' popping up missing from testcase" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1256894
<elfy> yep
<slickymaster> thought so
<slickymaster> I' already had added a card for that, yesterday
<elfy> oh - I see you did one for it in To Do 
<slickymaster> yeaps :)
<slickymaster> np
<elfy> I put it in doing - as it's in progress
<slickymaster> either that or I'll delete the one in the ToDo
<elfy> archived the other one now
<elfy> all done :)
<slickymaster> okie dokie
<slickymaster> elfy: just going to edit the card description and add there the LP bug number
<elfy> ok 
<slickymaster> jjfrv8,, I've noticed that "singularity" about xfdesktop. Let's see what ochosi has to sai abou it
<slickymaster> *about
<ochosi> slickymaster: sorry, about what exactly?
<ochosi> you mean usage vs. prefs?
<slickymaster> yeaps, ochosi 
<ochosi> it's probably good to do it like it is in the current docs
<ochosi> i.e. 4.8/4.10
<ochosi> only have brief mention in prefs that certain options exist and mention in a sentence what they do, but link to the usage-page for the full description
<ochosi> that way the prefs page remains a bit shorter and easier to go through
<ochosi> but yeah, in general i can also imagine merging the two pages to some extent
<ochosi> what do you guys think?
<slickymaster> IMO, as they are now, they are a bit redundant
<slickymaster> but there's the desktop menu item to finish
<slickymaster> at least in the Usage section
<slickymaster> but I suspect that it occur again those similarities
<slickymaster> it will ^^
<slickymaster> ei elfy, he've hit 2,000,000 threads on the forum. Amazing!
<ochosi> slickymaster, jjfrv8: well i think we oughta find a way to make things less redundant. especially with the 4.8/10 docs coming into the picture as well, those pages will become longer and more difficult to keep an overview on..
<slickymaster> yes ^^
<elfy> slickymaster: yea 
<jjfrv8> ochosi, slickymaster, I'll start trimming the prefs page down to the minimum
<ochosi> jjfrv8: i'd say just copy-paste the stuff over to usage
<ochosi> things don't have to be written twiice
<ochosi> at least what's missing or improveable there
<elfy> hi PaulW2U 
<slickymaster> and remove the existent references to see the prefs section 
<PaulW2U> hi elfy, just lurking :)
<elfy> yep - I see you lurking about :)
<elfy> PaulW2U: and thanks for testing and reporting
<slickymaster> jjfrv8, ochosi, I'll wait for the rework jjfrv8 will to and then I'll finish the desktop menu item
<slickymaster> will do ^^
<PaulW2U> np, just getting into it, especially as I do now use Xubuntu amongst other flavours
<elfy> it's appreciated :)
<ochosi> slickymaster: makes sense, thanks!
<elfy> knome: balloons is good with those with the post install changes
<knome> okay
<knome> let's go over them in the meeting and then proceed
<elfy> yep
 * elfy has a list of #info's for the meeting today
<knome> cool
<skellat>  elfy: You've got a +1 from me for Alpha 1 participation.  I've got a medical appointment in 80 minutes and won't be able to make it to meeting.
<elfy> skellat: ok
<ochosi> knome: might not be able to make the meeting as i'll be on my way home then
<ochosi> no significant updates from my side anyway though
<knome> heh, ok
<lderan> when is the meeting?
<slickymaster> 19:00 UTC lderan 
<lderan> thanks
<GridCube> !time
<ubottu> Information about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/serverguide/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP)
<GridCube> ha, thats not the same factoid that if you do /msg ubottu time
<lderan> that bot is crazy :P
<knome> !q ubottu
<knome> eh
<knome> GridCube, it is not.
<brainwash> ochosi: if I set the background color of the gtk3 indicator menu to "transparent" (xfce.css), the background of the text and all images will be consistent and the play button of the sound indicator will have the subtle glow
<ochosi> brainwash: it's a known issue that'll hopefully be fixed
<brainwash> mmh ok
<ochosi> one downside of mixing gtk2+3
<brainwash> and I noticed that after resuming from hibernation lightdm gtk greeter displayed the "login" button instead of the "unlock" one
<ochosi> hibernation?
<ochosi> i thought that's disabled by default
<ochosi> or even: not easy to enable
<brainwash> should be the same for suspend (not supported by my mainboard/hdd)
<ochosi> i suppose it's a lightdm issue, the greeter only reacts to the hints it gets
<brainwash> so I cannot test suspend
<ochosi> not sure, hibernate isn't officially supported by ubuntu afaik
<ochosi> i can try to test that later
<ochosi> but it used to work fine
<ochosi> gotta go
<ochosi> bbl
<brainwash> but it's about the mechanic 
<brainwash> the session is locked
<brainwash> so the "unlock" button should appear
<Unit193> knome: Saucy is no longer the topic, I don't think we care about the release schedule of it. :P
* knome changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Daily testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<knome> Unit193, yep.
<Unit193> Danke.
<knome> let's start the meeting in a few mins, i need to set up a temp office
<pleia2> ok
<elfy> kettle time then
<Unit193> Was thinking coffee, yeah.
<knome> mmkay
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 12 19:11:12 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<knome> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 
<knome> #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
<knome> TBD
<knome> #action skellat and ali1234 to look at the SRU progress for indicator-sound-GTK2 
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat and ali1234 to look at the SRU progress for indicator-sound-GTK2
<knome> ali1234, are you around?
<ali1234> o/
<knome> ali1234, what's up with that?
<ali1234> someone uploaded it to saucy proposed
<ali1234> y'all need to verify it
<knome> ok, cool, so it's progressing
<Unit193> It's not been accepted AFAIK.
<knome> #info Uploaded to saucy-proposed but not accepted yet; will follow up on next meeting
<knome> looks like the rest are pretty much done
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> use #info and #action
<knome> any updates?
<elfy> I've got a list of them - shall I go for it
<knome> go ahead
<elfy> #info Going to use this as the call for testing schedule http://pad.ubuntu.com/OHGoAbZPji
<elfy> #info Image testing: 64 bit - 5 people did 7.3% of all possible tests and for 32 bit - 4 people did 13.2% of all possible tests
<Noskcaj> gthumb 3.2.5 is now uploaded
<elfy> #info Automatic image testing - working for us now, though currently all failing due to the user-session bug, can be seen here https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/All/job/ubiquity_ap-xubuntu_devel_daily-run/
<knome> Noskcaj, use #info please
<elfy> #info Package testing - 13/13 Mandatory, 4/5 Run Once, 10/22 Optional - atm 3 people tested packages(these all need further testing calls though) re schedule
<elfy> #info Used the contact team members (xubuntu-testers) for testing call last time, 1 person amongst those mentioned above seems new to me
<elfy> #info QA team is running now - good forward step this, everyone knows (or should) what each other is working on
<elfy> #info Call to be written explaining exploratory testing - these will be reported via packages tracker, but is about people testing when they're using apps rather than to a schedule
<elfy> done
<Noskcaj> #info gthumb 3.2.5 is now uploaded, a second upload will re-add webapps
<jjfrv8> #info Sent "What's New in Trusty" doc proposal email to ML
<elfy> you might want to look at that 2nd #info - abysmal in my opinion
<knome> elfy, wondering if it would make more sense to try to format that in the same way as the release schedule
<knome> cool to hear about automatic image testing :)
<lderan> #info autopilot tests has a bit of a step forward, looks like we can do some basic testing with the xfce at the moment (checking to see if they open)
<elfy> knome: perhaps - but as it's only really going to be me or the QA team working from it - not sure it's that important
<knome> elfy, as long as it works for you...
<elfy> yep
<knome> let's get back to testing/qa later
<knome> any other updates?
<elfy> k
<knome> this has clearly been a slower week, but that's only expected because christmas is so near
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> #subtopic Changes in Lionel Le Folgoc's leadership positions 
<knome> effective from this moment of time, lionel (mr_pouit) will step down as the technical lead
<knome> as you all might have gathered, he hasn't been awfully active recently, and we both thought this is a step towards a better future; with an active technical lead
<knome> he will continue as the debian liaison
<elfy> so who's going to be the active technical lead now?
<knome> i haven't got into that yet :)
<micahg-work> hrm
<knome> i will have to talk to the team in the following days about that
<knome> #info Lionel will step down from the Technical Lead position, but will stay as the Debian Liaison
<knome> anybody want to add something, or have any further questions?
<elfy> not at present
<knome> #action knome to update the Leaders wikipage
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to update the Leaders wikipage
<knome> but yeah, it is a good question who will become the next technical lead
<knome> however, do not panic; in practice the situation isn't much different from what it has been during the last few cycles
<PhoenixSTF> sorry to ask but what is technical lead?
<PhoenixSTF> not applying just wondering!
<knome> the person that's responsible for technical issue consideration
<knome> practically the team always discusses issues together
<knome> and ultimately the project lead has a veto vote, even on technical issues
<knome> anyway, i will be in touch with people about this ASAP
<pleia2> Micah Gersten is our only other person on that team
<pleia2> micahg :)
<knome> on -dev, yes
<Noskcaj> Can i get put into -dev yet or is there an application process?
<knome> by team i meant the xubuntu team ;)
<pleia2> knome: ah
<knome> but sure, the -dev team as well.
<knome> being approved to -dev comes with certain access rights, and i would consider only people who have xubuntu packageset upload rights qualified
<pleia2> yeah
<elfy> so - we should have had 'talks' by the next meeting? if so perhaps we should move along and talk about that properly afterwards
<knome> yep.
<pleia2> is that process ubuntu dev PPU application?
<knome> pleia2, i would imagine so
<knome> pleia2, so, DMB approves
<micahg-work> Noskcaj, let
 * pleia2 nods
<micahg-work> Noskcaj, let's review that outside the meeting
<Noskcaj> ok
<knome> and yep, sure; just wanted to answer any and every question.
<knome> anybody else has announcements?
<elfy> not from me
<lderan> nope
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic Alpha participation
<knome> i think we've pretty much planned this already on previous meetings, so...
<knome> #vote Participate in both alphas (+1) or not (-1); team members can vote
<meetingology> Please vote on: Participate in both alphas (+1) or not (-1); team members can vote
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<elfy> I've got a proxy +1 from skellat too
<knome> yep, i can confirm that
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<Unit193> +1 It'd be nice to have a better boot up than right now though.
<meetingology> +1 It'd be nice to have a better boot up than right now though. received from Unit193
<knome> Unit193, better meaning "it works better" or "it works at all" ? :)
<Unit193> knome: Technically it works since you can get it to login.
<knome> :)
<knome> yep, we should improve that.
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Participate in both alphas (+1) or not (-1); team members can vote
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> #subtopic Replacing post installation tests
<knome> #info Proposal: Replace current post install tests (http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/testcases/1434/info and http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/testcases/1434/info with a single test http://packages.qa.dev.stgraber.org/qatracker/testcases/1569/info . Tests for old optional items to be created and then added to new single test. 
<knome> elfy, ?
<knome> do you have a question or...
 * elfy ?
<knome> hehe
<elfy> sigh - me?
<knome> okay, so no question (i know i asked to add this to the list)
<knome> so basically, we're going to change the post installation tests
<ochosi> bleh, just returned home
<elfy> oic lol - no - I'm making a statement :)
<knome> if nobody objects, we will just go ahead with that
<knome> basically, we want to drop the peripheral/optional tests from the main test
<knome> and move those into package tests
<knome> we will still link to those package tests as appropriate though
<knome> but this should eliminate running only 2/7 of a test and still marking it "passed"
<knome> this way we should get more accurate results as well
<knome> some testcases need to be written, but i'm sure elfy will follow up on that
<elfy> yep - on my list 
<elfy> already
<knome> any questions from others?
<elfy> wb ochosi 
<knome> #subtopic "What's new" for LTS
<knome> jjfrv8, want to share some thoughts?
<jjfrv8> well I don't know if everyone has seen the email yet, but we would like some feedback on whether
<pleia2> I like the idea, and I think we might include a "what's new since last release and since last lts"
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-December/009517.html
<knome> the email
<jjfrv8> to do a "what's new" page for Trusty
<elfy> I saw 
<pleia2> I think installation slideshow should only be since saucy though
<jjfrv8> we've got a pretty full BP for trusty so we would probably need some help with it
<micahg-work> yeah, that makes sense
<elfy> I like the idea on general, not sure whether we need to seperate them though
<micahg-work> there should be an LTS -> LTS what's new though
<knome> developers should help with gathering the things
<pleia2> it shouldn't be too much work, since we already have to write this stuff for release announcements
<knome> i mean, the subject matter
<Unit193> elfy: A little bit, since it doesn't apply the same to both groups.
<micahg-work> grab the CD manifest and diff?
<knome> -docs should just overlook the process and make it readable for end-users ;)
<pleia2> knome: yeah
<elfy> Unit193: I guess so
<knome> micahg-work, that's one option, but i'd rather focus on what "looks" new from the user POV
<knome> eg. run both the old and new release in VMs
<knome> and see what's new in basic functionality etc.
<knome> but whatever way works for me
<micahg-work> knome, sure, I was just suggesting an easy way to see the new apps/version changes
<knome> (the more ways we can cover, the better, because that way we'll catch more things)
<knome> micahg-work, shouldn't pretty much everything be updated from precise->trusty? :)
<knome> other questions?
<jjfrv8> when will we know e.g. what things from xfce 4.12 will make it?
<micahg-work> knome, umm, in theory, but you can see the versions that changed as well
<knome> micahg-work, yep :)
<knome> jjfrv8, we made our cherry-pick list already
<micahg-work> does anyone know if 4.12 has been given any new push towards a final release?
<knome> micahg-work, not that i know of
<knome> jjfrv8, ...and if 4.12 isn't released on time for T, that's accurate
<knome> and it doesn't look very plausible
<knome> #subtopic Other things
<micahg-work> which will be sad as Jessie will probably have 4.12 and we'll be divergent...
<knome> micahg-work, when's the target release date for jessie?
<micahg-work> Nov 5 2014 IIRC
<micahg-work> wait, that's the freeze
<Noskcaj> #info We might be able to re-add pidgin twitter support if https://code.google.com/p/prpltwtr/issues/detail?id=88 get's fixed. there is a bounty worth $5000 dollars (currently) for a fix
<micahg-work> Debian doesn't do target release dates, they release when ready
<knome> okay
<micahg-work> knome, nothing we can do about it, just mentioning it
<ochosi> any thoughts on packing 4.11 into 14.04 and then getting 4.12 SRUd or something?
<Noskcaj> +1, although not all components
<ochosi> (there's actually not so many components missing for that)
<micahg-work> ochosi, I'd probably be more comfortable with that in a PPA than in the distro, there's no telling what will change before release unless everything is in bug fix mode only
<knome> micahg-work, sure. just good to track that as well
<knome> i would be fine with SRUing all of 4.12, as long as developers want to do it
<ochosi> micahg-work: i did go through the roadmap recently, feature-wise it's pretty much done
<knome> but then again, i'm stepping down after 14.04 release, so you might want to consult somebody else on that :)
<micahg-work> I don't think we could pull that off, I'd be ok with backporting 4.12 when it got in though
<micahg-work> (assuming we could get the required testing to pass)
<elfy> big assumption
<ochosi> my guess is that xfce will only change very incrementally until 4.12 now
<knome> i can promise i can do more testing after the 14.04 release.
<ochosi> as soon as i hear back from nick, i can let you know
<knome> #action ochosi to follow up on xfce 4.12 release with nick and report back
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to follow up on xfce 4.12 release with nick and report back
<elfy> knome: as much as I thank you - 1 person doesn't do much to the figures I've got :)
<knome> elfy, not to the person figures, no ;)
<micahg-work> ochosi, ok, let's keep an eye on that, we don't have an SRU microexception for Xfce, so SRUing the whole stack would be a nice trick
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> just to give you the infos that i have now:
<knome> ochosi, #info please!
<knome> :))
<ochosi> yeah, well it's nothing official
<knome> still..
<ochosi> fine...
<ochosi> #info ochosi has been working with eric_the_idiot a few of the missing pieces of Xfce4.12 done
<ochosi> #info NSchermer said he will try to do more development releases before christmas
<ochosi> (that'll most likely include xfwm4)
<ochosi> so i'm more hopeful that the release is not so far away
<ochosi> (i guess #hope doesn't exist)
<knome> :P
<knome> not...yet
<knome> ask lderan if you want him to implement it
<elfy> I'd never stop - probably not a good idea
<ochosi> actually, i'd also like to ask those of you who test trusty already to use the shimmer-daily PPA
<knome> ochosi, can you be in touch with elfy on that and send a mail to -devel together?
<ochosi> please check if everything is fine with using only our icon-theme without gnome-icon-theme
<elfy> #info ochosi wants "those of you who test trusty already to use the shimmer-daily PPA"
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/+archive/daily
<ochosi> ty guys, you're much better at #this than me :>
<elfy> :)
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
 * elfy would like to know what's the status of whiskermenu in our plans
<ochosi> #info testing should focus on Gnome3/Gtk3 apps (e.g. evince), checking whether the theming is fine and whether all icons are there
<knome> oops :)
<knome> go ahead.
<elfy> and menulibre
<skellat> o/
<knome> hey skellat 
<elfy> #action elfy to chase bluesabre re menulibre 
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to chase bluesabre re menulibre
<ochosi> elfy: we had this vote last time, not sure what we voted on specifically...
<skellat> I'm comfortable with us going with whiskermenu.
<ochosi> but i'm afraid it involves work for me
<ochosi> i think i have to do a panel-layout proposal, iirc
<knome> ochosi, haha, good assessment
<elfy> ochosi: well I read the logs that diodn't make much sense to me last week
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> workfor_ochosi != sense
<knome> elfy, waiting for ochosi to propose a new panel layout with whiskermenu.
<ochosi> i'll try to get around to it asap
<knome> thanks
<elfy> I'm just a bit like a cat on a hot roof about these things we keep saying are going to happen and it's half way through december already
<ali1234> did anyone try panel-switch? (or whatever i named it)
<knome> elfy, things are progressing... slowly but steadily ;)
<ochosi> if any of you want to propose a panel-layout, feel free to go ahead or get in touch with me
<elfy> if you ask me to set up testing for new things in March I'll be saying No
<knome> ali1234, not yet. can you send an email to the list?
<knome> or did you?
<knome> elfy, yeah, not happening that.
<ochosi> panel-switch works fine, as far as i tested it. really nice stuff!
<ali1234> i didn't, no
<knome> micahg-work, when do you plan landing xfce 4.11 stuff?
<ali1234> ochosi: did you see the guy in #xfce-dev today? who said he's working on "activites for xfce"
 * knome kicks bluesabre in the back and tells him to get his stuff ready ASAP
<skellat>  elfy: Would it be possible to put out an e-mail on getting the indicators SRU verified?
<ochosi> ali1234: i did, but i was kinda busy so i didn't chime in
<ali1234> maybe we can just get him to make it :)
<elfy> #action elfy to set up a new vm and get everyone's new bits in so I've got something to look at
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to set up a new vm and get everyone's new bits in so I've got something to look at
<lderan> knome, aye im up for to be asked to do stuff :P
<ochosi> ali1234: that would be nice, i just hope he won't overpower it
<knome> lderan, i was mostly kidding ;)
<elfy> #action - team with new apps to be tested to contact elfy with details
<meetingology> ACTION: - team with new apps to be tested to contact elfy with details
<ali1234> i never thought about it in this way before, but it's really not such a terrible idea
<lderan> knome, :P
<ali1234> i have no idea how to make it though, so i'll just stick with the plan
<micahg-work> knome, how's the testing going with that stuff, we could probably land it in the next week or so if the testing has been positive
<knome> elfy, some time when we've moved, probably after christmas, i'll do a good evaluation of where we are with all stuff
<elfy> skellat: I don't see why not - where are the details/info for it? not seen a mail from any list about that SRU at present
<elfy> knome: k
<knome> ochosi, have you sent instructions to the list about testing the 4.11 components?
<ochosi> knome: should i have? i didn't see an #action for that and don't recall i signed up for it (or got it assigned)
<ali1234> testing 4.11 currently means building nearly everything
<ochosi> what kind of instructions other than "add Xfce4.12 PPA" did you want?
<micahg-work> hrm
<Unit193> I'd -1 whiskermenu, at least for th{e,is} LTS.
<micahg-work> ali1234, we're just doing a few components
<ochosi> ali1234: nah, quite a lot is in the xfce4.12 PPA
<ochosi> Unit193: why's that?
<knome> ochosi, any works, as long as it allows people to test that stuff
<micahg-work> did I miss a meeting?
<elfy> micahg-work: not that I know of 
<micahg-work> I thought we were just pulling in a few components
<ochosi> micahg-work: can you copy the existing packages for trusty? https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/
<ochosi> yeah, i think we are
<knome> micahg-work, yes, we are :)
<knome> micahg-work, still sticking with what we decided on the meeting back then
<micahg-work> ochosi, yeah, give me a minute
<ochosi> libxfce4ui, xfdesktop, xfce4-settings (we already have that in 13.10) and possibly xfwm4
<ochosi> only libxfce4ui, xfdesktop and xfwm4 will be newer versions than in 13.10 really
<ochosi> (we need libxfce4ui anyway for the panel+gtk3indicators)
<ochosi> so to summarize: gtk3-indicator-stuff (panel, indicator-plugin, libxfce4ui) and xfdesktop is what we accepted afaik
<ochosi> xfwm4 is still up for discussion
<knome> has anybody looked into getting xfce4 power manager?
<knome> +to work
<ochosi> not really, afaik
<knome> i guessed so. does anybody want to start looking at that?
<ochosi> nick was considering to drop it
<knome> aha
<ochosi> (just saying)
<knome> then we need to look for an alternative
<ochosi> replace it with a simple settings dialog for systemd and other upower settings
<knome> ideas?
<micahg-work> I thought we had an alternative for the power manager, can't remember offhand what it was
<ochosi> i don't think we really do
<ochosi> i mean we can use the indicator-power
<ochosi> but that only shows the battery status
<knome> should look for the logs for the meeting where that was discussed
<knome> there were several ideas at least, if not considerable alternatives
<micahg-work> ochosi, do the saucy packages work on trusty with no rebuild>?
<ochosi> micahg-work: i would hope so, but tbh i haven't tried
<micahg-work> ochosi, can we get someone to try that first (or I can just rebuild them a bit later)
<ochosi> elfy: ^ ?
<ochosi> micahg-work: sorry, i don't have a 14.04VM yet..
<elfy> skellat: sorry - I see the sound ind SRU stuff now
<elfy> ochosi micahg-work - I'm about all day tomorrow - I can look at whatever needs looking at
<ochosi> ok nice
<Unit193> ochosi: Did you want him to look at xfwm too? :P
<ochosi> micahg-work: then just copy it for now, elfy can test it tomorrow and if it doesn't work you can rebuild after tomorrow?
<micahg-work> sure, in theory it should work (and it's marked experimental anyways)
<ochosi> Unit193: well kinda, but i think we need a release of that anyway... we can't just ship a snapshot
<Unit193> ochosi: Of course not.
<Noskcaj> ochosi, You missed the new xfce4-settings (4.11.1), which is ready for upload in debian, but needs libxfce4ui 4.11
<ochosi> Unit193: but true, wanna #info your PPA for it?
<Noskcaj> we only have 4.11.0
<micahg-work> copy done, waiting publishing
<elfy> ochosi micahg-work - someone write down in word of one syllable what you want/need me to do - I'm still suffering with this trapped nerve and pain killers
<ochosi> Noskcaj: i mentioned it, but i thought it's pretty much the same version we have in 13.10
<ochosi> Noskcaj: well, point being: we already ship a 4.11 version of that, but not of xfdesktop
<Noskcaj> ok
<micahg-work> elfy, try the xfce 4.12 PPA on trusty and see if the apps/DE works
<elfy> simple as that? 
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> ideally use it for a while or so
<elfy> see - confused - I thought you were talking about indicators
<ochosi> but basically it should either work or not work
<ochosi> no, these are just the other xfce4.11 components
<micahg-work> no, we need to get moving on the indicator stuff as well though
<ochosi> indeed
<elfy> ochosi: oh - if that's the case I'll check it in VM then assuming that all seems ok I'll install it to this install I used daily
<ochosi> Noskcaj has uploaded it all to one PPA
<elfy> someone point me to the right ppa then :)
<ochosi> elfy: great! and don't forget to ping micahg-work about it (optionally me as well)
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> elfy: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/
<elfy> k
<ochosi> micahg-work: all the indicator-stuff is in Noskcaj's PPA now
<Noskcaj> and https://launchpad.net/~noskcaj/+archive/indicator-gtk3 for indicators
<ochosi> yup, that ^ :)
<ochosi> good timing, Noskcaj 
<elfy> ochosi: I'll know quite early tomorrow if it's gone completely wrong - I'll put it in here for longer term
<ochosi> elfy: sounds good
<elfy> Noskcaj: thanks - got that
<ochosi> brb
<Noskcaj> It's all upload-able, but there are excess build-deps in the xfce4-indicator-plugin package
<micahg-work> I'd like some people to test the indicator stack, if it's good, I'll get it uploaded to trusty
<Unit193> I tried it in saucy, dumped it to go back to gtk2 ones.
<micahg-work> not a good sign
<micahg-work> at least now we don't need it in saucy thanks to ali1234's fix
<elfy> yep
<Unit193> There weren't any major problems, just the known panel appearance not taking and the icons were bigger and more seperated in my theme, thus I gained nothing and lost a couple things.
<knome> if the people who have set up PPA's and such would send emails to -devel for call for testing, everything would be easier
<Noskcaj> I've had the indicator stuff for a week now and it's worked fine
<knome> and i could run some tests with my little time i can dedicate to such things
<elfy> I think that testing the indicators is important at this stage - so as many as we can get 
<ochosi> the theming problems Unit193 describes don't exist with our themes
<ochosi> but: we need the current git versions of our themes for that
<ochosi> so whoever tests indicators at the moment, also use the shimmer PPA please
<ochosi> i mean the shimmer daily PPA (the one that was mentioned before)
<Unit193> ochosi: Icon size doesn't still?  I think that one was hardcoded?
<elfy> #info ochosi said "so whoever tests indicators at the moment, also use the shimmer daily PPA please" 
<ochosi> Unit193: well if you have them smaller than 22px at the moment, then yes. right now (and the same is true for ubuntu) their fixed size with 22px
<knome> sounds like we got moving with this impromptu section ;)
<knome> let's do this more often
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> indeed
<lderan> :)
<knome> anything else on anybody's mind?
<elfy> nope
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
<knome> any reason not to have a meeting next week at the same time?
<elfy> +1 to that
<Noskcaj> +1
<pleia2> wfm
<knome> goodie
<knome> #info Next meeting Thu 19 Dec at 19UTC
<knome> #endmeeting
<knome> ta
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 12 20:26:59 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-12-12-19.11.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-12-12-19.11.html
<elfy> thanks knome et al 
<pleia2> thanks knome 
<micahg-work> thanks knome 
<knome> i'll put up the minutes up later today
<elfy> #info tea is now cold
<lderan> nooooooooooooooooooooooo
<Unit193> http://goo.gl/bIpwCa next meeting.
<Unit193> #info coffee is very good.
<ochosi> ta knome 
<knome> minutes are up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<knome> pleia2, do we want to social mediaize it?
<pleia2> prolly
<knome> let me know when you're sure
<Noskcaj> micahg-work, While you're around, would you mind giving me a testimony at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Noskcaj#MOTU
<micahg-work> Noskcaj, I need to review your work still
<Noskcaj> ok
<ochosi> ali1234: can you pull the xubuntu default panel layout to panel-switch's config files?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-13
<Unit193> ali1234: New xfwm fixed the crashing and zoom works now.
<Unit193> Also, xfdesktop is up in ppa too.
<bluesabre> knome, forestpiskie: sent a mail to -devel with the current status on everything from me
<Unit193> Actually, zoom works on both that were crashing now.
<bluesabre> pretty awesome zooming, thanks ali1234
<Unit193> I'd still like an option to disable it though, zoomed takes a bit on here when I move.
<elfy> ochosi: so - installing the 4.12 you have to have the 4.10 ppa as well? or is that just for pre trusty?
<elfy> ochosi micahg - no apparent 'oh noes' going on that I can see with those ppa's - including jackson's
<elfy> ochosi: added the 4.12/shimmer/gtk3 ind ppa's to this machine - all seems ok - but ABout Xfce is saying 4.10
<elfy> http://imagebin.org/282082
<elfy> notice - odd time in the indicator - I quite like the idea of a clock with only an hour hand - others might not :)
<ali1234> is that indicator datetime?
<ali1234> that should never happen...
<elfy> ali1234: I assume that it is - and should never happen didn't get installed here I guess :)
<elfy> Noskcaj: just so you know - I've got the ppa's all installed here fine :)
<elfy> brainwash: can kind of confirm that abiword ruler issue - though as soon as you attempt to resize it then ruler then appears
<elfy> ochosi ali1234 - does this make sense to you - if it does I'll call for testing 
<elfy> http://pastebin.com/74VWcEK5
<ali1234> depends what you are trying to test
<elfy> the gtk3 inds and whatever ochosi wanted people to be using the shimmer and xfce 4.12 ppa's for 
<elfy> as discussed in meeting yesterday
<ali1234> well, the indicator upstart stuff is still broken, but other than that...
<elfy> which is giving what results? 
<elfy> I've not been in any fit state to follow much of late
<ali1234> indicators will randomly fail to load up
<elfy> ok - thanks ali1234 
<elfy> ali1234: like the sound one was doing in saucy from time to time I assume - so a panel restart gets them back?
<ali1234> no, that was a different bug
<ali1234> restarting the panel won't help
<ali1234> it might even make more of them disappear
<elfy> ok - thanks 
<elfy> is there a bug number for that?
<ali1234> the workaround is to put INDICATOR_ALLOW_NO_WATCHERS=yes in /etc/environment
<ali1234> only https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-network/+bug/1185565
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1185565 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Indicators should have Upstart jobs" [Medium,In progress]
<ali1234> it discusses some of the problems
<elfy> ok thanks - will ahve a look a bit later 
<ali1234> that bug should be retitled "tedg broke indicators for everybody"
<elfy> lol
<elfy> but as far as putting INDICATOR_ALLOW_NO_WATCHERS=yes - would that not mean that those testing it wouldn't see a fix unless they remembered to remove it - assuming so
<ali1234> well yeah
<ali1234> but it's like i always say - we know exactly what is broken and why. we need someone to fix it, more testing reports won't help
<elfy> you'll have to excuse me needing things in word of one syllable at the moment I'm afraid 
<elfy> and yea - once people know - there's no need for report after report after report :)
<ali1234> basically this isn't even a bug
<ali1234> it's just a natural result of the massive code changes being incomplete
<ali1234> if you look on that bug ^ you'll see it involes about 20 different merge requests
<elfy> right - I can understand that 
<elfy> indeed - I was just looking :p
<ali1234> (including one from me which fixes this specific problem)
<elfy> the timeout one 
<ali1234> right
<elfy> I'll sort out a wiki page a bit later today for people to 'oh no' at 
<elfy> then try and get eyes on it for us
<ali1234> this is why, ideally, it would be a lot more useful if people were testing branches/upstream
<ali1234> for me anyway
<elfy> I can see that - but we have a hard enough job getting people to test here let alone upstream
<elfy> abysmal if you ask me 
<elfy> right - bbl
<ochosi> elfy: hey, good to hear that all about works in trusty
<ochosi> only restarting the panel might not suffice, as ali1234 has mentioned
<ochosi> i'd rather restart the whole session, as the other updated components (xfwm, xfdesktop) also need to be restarted after the upgrade
<ochosi> and mentioning the indicator-upstart-bug as currently known issue is certainly good (incl. bugreport-link)
<ochosi> so if you put all that on a wiki-page, that's certainly useful
<ochosi> you can use the gtk3indicators-page i created for trusty and kick out all the build instructions and replace them with the three PPAs
<ochosi> hey gottcode 
<gottcode> ochosi: hey
<ochosi> i wasn't sure whether whiskermenu also uses garcon
<gottcode> it does
<ochosi> but if so, i guess it'll be hard to show the settings apps
<gottcode> yup, your menu file excludes them
<ochosi> we'll have to rethink that if we use whiskermenu by default
<gottcode> definitely something to consider
<ochosi> i assume you can't set a menu-file for whiskermenu separately?
<gottcode> it doesn't support that right now, but it could be added
<gottcode> at the moment it just uses whatever is the default menu-file for your environment
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> well it could be useful for xubuntu at least, because then we could provide a whiskermenu-menufile which would contain everything
<ochosi> (cause it handles the overflow stuff much nicer than the old menu)
<ochosi> and keep the other menu-file for the appmenu
<gottcode> that does make sense
<ochosi> so ppl can still get the old behavior back if the want
<ochosi> (and having all the settings apps there in a submenu really sucks)
<gottcode> true
<ochosi> do you want me to close that issue and open a new one?
<gottcode> if you don't mind
<gottcode> I prefer to keep issues as single-topic as possible
<ochosi> sure, np
<ochosi> yeah, i understand, i hate it when we get bugreports that later get hi-jacked for other stuff
<gottcode> is there a way to set default settings for the regular appmenu?
<ochosi> i'm not sure
<ochosi> i think all the config is stored in the panel-xml
<ochosi> but you're right, that also might be worth investigating
<ochosi> then you don't have to fix/add anything in whiskermenu
<gottcode> exactly
<gottcode> I am willing to add custom menu-file support to whiskermenu, but it would be a hidden setting in 1.3 as right now it is in string freeze
<ochosi> sounds good
<gottcode> also in 1.3 is support for default settings, so if a user removes whiskermenu and adds it back they get your defaults
<gottcode> which means they would get your custom menu-file for every instance of whiskermenu
<ochosi> hm
<ochosi> that doesn't sounds ideal
<gottcode> you only want the first instance to do that?
<ochosi> although the custom menu file would simply try to include all desktop files
<ochosi> so it'd be actually good
<ochosi> nah, i'm just thinking that (theoretically) it's hard for ppl to switch to another menu-file
<ochosi> but it's not very problematic
<gottcode> yeah, that's true
<gottcode> but the only reason to use a different menu-file is usually to have a different selection
<gottcode> which make search not as useful
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i think we should strive to empower the search as much as we can
<gottcode> it is the part I find most useful :)
<ochosi> i'll give it a testrun to see how it looks when i use the xfce-menu-file
<gottcode> ok
<ochosi> hm
<gottcode> ?
<ochosi> so changing the menu-file for the applications-menu-plugin doesn't change the default i guess
<gottcode> just for that instance of the appmenu, I think
<gottcode> you can have multiple instances
<ochosi> yeah, which we will probably provide when panel-switch is ready (to give a quick way to switch to a gnome2 layout)
<gottcode> makes sense
<ali1234> right, that's how i made the settings menu
<gottcode> bbl
<ochosi> sure, thanks gottcode 
<slickymaster> morning all
<ochosi> morning
<slickymaster> hi ochosi 
<elfy> ochosi: ok - I'll fiddle with that wiki page then
<elfy> ochosi: <ochosi> i'd rather restart the whole session, as the other updated components (xfwm, xfdesktop) also need to be restarted after the upgrade - just reboot? 
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, you can also reboot
<ochosi> or logout > login
<elfy> I'll go for logout/in :)
<elfy> what about bugs - if people get indicators failing - do we actually want them to spam LP with bugs? or shall I specify mailing the dev list rather?
<elfy> or maybe add a "If you note bugs that are NOT Listed below, please report them as normal" in the Known Issues bit
<ochosi> no, no need to confirm the failing indicators for now
<ochosi> yeah
<brainwash> create a bug report beforehand?
<ochosi> there is a bugreport for the indicators failing i think
<elfy> there isd
<elfy> is
<elfy> ochosi: so - dev list ?
<brainwash> so we can mark them as duplicates :D
<elfy> brainwash: yea - but it's just work for people and spams people's inbox's 
<elfy> see 1208204 for how much of a pita it is
<elfy> ochosi: probably best to do something like If you note bugs that are NOT Listed below, please report them as normal" 
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<brainwash> btw does the smooth background transition work for you? I assume all the changes are now included in the 4.12 ppa
<elfy> if you mean do I not get the grey background - then not it's not working here :)
<ochosi> no, aren't included
<slickymaster> brainwash: not so smoothly in my Suacy box with 4.12 PPA
<brainwash> ok
<ochosi> xfwm4 is still built without the root-pixmap thingy and xfdesktop is also too old
<slickymaster> I still get it also
<ochosi> Unit193 has an updated PPA with that, but it doesn't work so i assume there are some packaging issues
<brainwash> ochosi: and don't forget the greeter =S
<ochosi> brainwash: for that there's a daily PPA and we'll be doing a dev-release soon
<brainwash> great
<ochosi> so no need to worry about that one
<brainwash> really feels like we should push all the changes now
<brainwash> to have some more time for testing
<elfy> we really need to ensure that PPA's that people want looking at get pushed to the mailing list
<elfy> I have absolutely no idea at all what's been going on for a week or more
<elfy> ochosi: ok - done https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators
<elfy> if you could/or someone else give it a onceover I'll push it to the mailing list for people and on the forum as well
<elfy> and I'll spam xubuntu-testers with it as well ;)
<ochosi> thanks elfy 
<elfy> on a minor note - that will help me get my head around this - why does About XFCE in the menu still say 4.10 though? is it because it is 4.10 with some bits and pieces from 4.11/4.12
<ochosi> i guess the about dialog wasn't updated
<ochosi> we can consider doing that, but much of the system is still 4.10
<elfy> ochosi: ok - and sorry - one last thing - did you see my screenshot ^^ of the dodgy time indicator?
<slickymaster> elfy ochosi https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators seems ok
<ochosi> elfy: i did, what about it exactly?
<elfy> well - I assume it's not supposed to look like that 
<ochosi> no, it doesn't here
<ochosi> but i'm on saucy
<elfy> mmm - all trsuty here
<ochosi> there are a few indicator-issues within ubuntu as well, as ali1234 mentioned
<ochosi> so i think we might have to wait a bit for the dust to settle in that respect
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> right - I'll get the call out now then 
<ochosi> thanks
<ochosi> and feel free to mention the workaround in the known issues section directly
<ochosi> so ppl don't have to dig through the bugreport
<elfy> the INDICATOR_ALLOW_NO_WATCHERS=yes one?
<elfy> if so ali1234 had put that there I believe - it's on the page already when I looked
<ali1234> yes i added a couple of notes yesterday
<ali1234> in the "known issues" section
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> sorry, overlooked that then
<elfy> niceto see that the add new items is a bit more populated now :)
<ochosi> bbl
<elfy> ok - forum/discourse/LP/mailing list all spammed with it 
<brainwash> elfy: should the known issue be listed too? occasionally missing indicators and sound indicator icon
<brainwash> known issues
<brainwash> on top of that, people might use other themes than greybird and notice some visual glitches
<brainwash> oh, my bad
<brainwash> add it to the wiki page then :D
<elfy> if you could 
<elfy> :)
<elfy> but I'd guess we'd want to know about visual glitches when not using greybird - or at the least glitches when using default themese
<brainwash> can you confirm the missing sound indicator icon?
<brainwash> happens not all the time
<elfy> not at the moment I can't - I've not had that go awol since I started usingtrusty daily
<elfy> but I will confirm it when and if I see it :)
<elfy> but I tend to reboot once a day
<brainwash> well, you just installed the gtk3 indicator stuff some hours ago, or? :)
<elfy> well I had them anyway - just from git 
<brainwash> just noticed, that we got two wiki pages for this
<brainwash> saucy and trusty
<elfy> yea
<knome> yes, the saucy should be historical
<brainwash> bug 1238997 still points to the saucy one
<ubottu> bug 1238997 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "Add support for GTK3 panel indicators" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1238997
<knome> i don't see that
<knome> O:)
<elfy> knome: just going to do the merge proposal for the new post install test, shall I ping you to get it approved? 
<elfy> then I'll deal with the tracker as well
<elfy> assuming we want to go ahead with that no
<elfy> w
<knome> you can ping me to get it approved and merged
<elfy> ok
<elfy> knome: https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/Xubuntu_Post_Install/+merge/198932
<knome> elfy, merged and added to the tracker; go link it
<elfy> knome: found my way thought the labyrinth of tracker admin and disabled the 2 previous and added the new one :)
<knome> nice
<elfy> ochosi: so this odd then - xchat just decided as I moved the mouse to do this to xchat window http://imagebin.org/282133
<ochosi> elfy: does that only affect xchat?
<elfy> yea - seemingly 
<ochosi> is it a gtk3 app?
<elfy> I'm not sure tbh - I don't think it is
<elfy> but - why it changed when I moved the mouse I've no idea
<ochosi> so all the other apps look fine?
<elfy> yep :)
<elfy> at least those I've looked at are - I've not opened everything up :)
<ochosi> ideally check the logs of xfsettingsd
<ochosi> can you also just open another gtk3 app?
<ochosi> e.g. software sources
<ochosi> sry, ig2g
<elfy> just did - looks fine 
<ochosi> bbiab
<elfy> yep - cya later
<slickymaster> elfy, ping
<slickymaster> elfy: nevermind, don't pong back :P
<slickymaster> knome:  ping
<knome> slickymaster, pong
<slickymaster> knome: regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1256894
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1256894 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Hidden panels' popping up missing from testcase" [Undecided,In progress]
<slickymaster> there's already this  <dt>Tick the 'Automatically show and hide the panel' option under the "General" section</dt> <dd>The panel should automatically hide if the mouse is not hovering over it</dd> in the existent test
<knome> does it also check if it pops up?
<slickymaster> kus a sec
<knome> if yes, mark the bug invalid; if not, add that and do a MP :)
<slickymaster> just^^
<knome> bbiab
<slickymaster> no there isn't, I'll add it and do a MP
<elfy> ochosi: seems that at the same time as ^^ happening I also lost it from the panel 
<elfy> just fyi
<ochosi> elfy: could you start it from the terminal and then check whether you get any suspicious output when you reproduce it?
<elfy> from tomorrow I'l run it from a terminal until I see the same thing again 
<ochosi> ok thanks!
<elfy> ok - all set to go :)
<test___> test
<ochosi> ali1234: when you did the xfwm4 research lately wrt the window-type-hints and all, do you recall anything that would explain why dialogs (that cannot be maximized) have a maximize button in xfwm4?
<ochosi> i.e. this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfwm4/+bug/1177116
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1177116 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Xfwm4's 'dialog' window has an unused maximise-button" [Low,Triaged]
<ali1234> no, but i could look at it sometime
<ochosi> i never noticed it before, but even e.g. file-delete dialogs in thunar have a maximize button
<ochosi> and they clearly shouldn't have one
<ochosi> kinda odd
<ochosi> ok, well if you dig into that mess again, it'd be nice if you could keep your eyes open for that one
<ali1234> i'm probably not going to get anything more done until after christmas
<Unit193> ochosi: Could be, but blues compiled from source and got the same result.
<pleia2> elfy elfy elfy 
<pleia2> elfy: can you update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators to tell uses what they need to use?
<pleia2> Saucy, Trusty daily
<pleia2> people on the social medias are asking
<elfy> pleia2: mmm - well surprisingly as I sent it to testers and the dev mailing list - I didn't think I need to say that - especially given the url :)
<elfy> though at least we'll get people saying they can't install the daily properly given it's issues
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> I assume nothing
<pleia2> perfect, thank you
<elfy> no wonder we never get any testing if people in -dev and -testers need to be told which thing we're actually testing for 6 months of the year ... 
<pleia2> lol
<pleia2> well PPAs confuse people
<elfy> lol
<pleia2> could be we are trying to get gtk3 working on saucy too!
<elfy> there are instructions for that too - saucy is in the url ;)
<pleia2> probably my fault for sending it to social media, these people are all the newbie crowd for testing ;)
<elfy> pleia2: I'll not stop you doing that :)
<pleia2> hehe
<elfy> wandering off again
<pleia2> see you
<ochosi> Unit193: weird, i thought that brainwash and ali1234 got it working for them...
<ochosi> (the flicker-free login transition)
<ali1234> you need xfwm4 built with special options, xfdesktop from upstream, and gtk-greeter from upstream
<Unit193> Got the context, no idea but in theory it should.
<Unit193> -DMONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP, right: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/159611368/buildlog_ubuntu-saucy-amd64.xfwm4_4.11.0~0.tabwin.git20131212.edf7ad4-1~13.10.1_UPLOADING.txt.gz
<ali1234> ok, what about xfdesktop?
<ali1234> and gtk-greeter?
<ali1234> you need git master, not any release
<Unit193> gtk-greeter you get from daily, xfdesktop is git master, commit f12aa43 to be exact.
<ali1234> ok, where do you see flicker?
<Unit193> ochosi: ^
<Unit193> "Login"
<ali1234> at what stage?
<ali1234> and what is the precise nature of it?
<Unit193> OK, so lightdm "panels" go away, I still see the background, then something set it black for a moment as the xfce4-panels showed up at the exact same time.
<ochosi> sry, g2g, bbiab
<brainwash> black? now we got grey (xfwm4), white (xfdesktop) and black (?)
<ali1234> black is something totally new
<ali1234> quite possibly your x server
<Unit193> Alright.  Virtualbox test it was.
<ochosi> brainwash: didn't you say the greeter had some problems after hibernation?
<ochosi> or someone said that
<ochosi> i just tried suspend, and that went fine
<ochosi> meaning: the greeter displayed "unlock" as intended (not "log in" as reported). tested on saucy though
<ochosi> but that means it's not unlikely that lightdm is the culprit
<brainwash> ochosi: yeah, I noticed it yesterday (trusty)
<brainwash> I will try to reproduce it
<ochosi> ok, thanks
<Noskcaj> Why in all the status.ubuntu.com stuff am i noskcaj rather than jackson doak?
<Noskcaj> I just thought the latter would make more sense
<knome> Noskcaj, you don't have a personal "page" on s.u.c, so you are referred to by your LP nick
<Noskcaj> ok
<knome> Noskcaj, i have asked the site developers to consider getting *at least* the real names for everybody (even those with no personal pages)
<Noskcaj> how do i get a personal page?
<knome> i don't know the process to that
<knome> i guess just ask the right people and have enough work items to warrant one
<pleia2> hm, odd, if you have your name on things on status.u.c you should be listed on http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/people.html
<knome> pleia2, yes, sorted by launchpad nick
<knome> pleia2, you are there!
<pleia2> but Noskcaj is not?
<knome> he doesn't have a name.
<knome> err, in s.u.c. ;)
<pleia2> I mean, having a "personal page" should be automatic if you have work items listed on suc
<pleia2> shouldn't have to ask anyone
<knome> no...
<knome> that's not how it goes
<pleia2> huh
<knome> there's some fishy stuff
<pleia2> I wonder how I got one :)
<knome> not all have userpages
<pleia2> I always assumed it was automatic
 * knome shrughs
<knome> nope, that would have been too hard on the server
<knome> i'm told
<pleia2> sad
<pleia2> they should use the cloud!
<knome> there's lot to say about what the IS could do better
<ochosi> knome, pleia2: quick question while you're around: what date do we wanna set as deadline for contributions to the wallpaper-contest?
<knome> ochosi, didn't i answer you about that already?
<ochosi> yeah, but we didn't discuss it with pleia2 
<ochosi> and we didn't write anything down
<knome> i can't remember the answer, but iirc it was "end of january"
<ochosi> so consequently i don't remember the exact date
<knome> then why are you pinging me ;]
<pleia2> hehe
<ochosi> because i'd prefer if we would write something down
<pleia2> after holidays, no preference other than that
<ochosi> and also make it public
 * knome writes "something" on a paper
<pleia2> and knome loses the paper in the move
<knome> hah!
<pleia2> we will never remember something now
<knome> dare me :)
<knome> i never forget anything
<knome> except my keys the last time
<pleia2> end of january seems fine
<knome> but that's not information!
<knome> there was even a justification for that
<pleia2> it's a kind of information
<ochosi> yeah, the freezes
<ochosi> we wanted a month before "some freeze" or something
<knome> yep
<ochosi> so to have enough time to get things packaged and uploaded
<knome> month before b1
<knome> that was it
<ochosi> good
<knome> so we have the wallpapers in b1
<knome> hopefully
<knome> latest in b2
<ochosi> so shall we also set a date for our voting?
<pleia2> so January 27th
<pleia2> knome: make it so, number 1
<ochosi> an artwork meeting or something
<ochosi> i'm not sure i have access to that google calendar thingy, but if someone could add it there so we don't forget, that'd be nice
<knome> ochosi, pleia2: what about jan 29?
<pleia2> knome: trouble maker
<pleia2> all the same to me
<ochosi> should work
<ochosi> and should be better than 27 for me
<pleia2> ok, I'll put 29 on calendar
<ochosi> great, thanks
<knome> pleia2, i meant the meeting
<knome> but whatever ;)
<knome> my connection just bumped
<knome> jan 30 would be thursday
<knome> which is our regular meeting day
<ochosi> so you'd prefer that?
<knome> i thought deadline on monday 27 and meeting on wednesday 29 would have been the best
<knome> then we could have announced the results on meeting on thursday 30
<knome> the deadline can also be sunday 26 if you think you have to be around then
<pleia2> knome: oh, hah
<ochosi> ok, sounds fine to me
<pleia2> there, close on 27th
<ochosi> so deadline 27th and vote 29th
<knome> yep.
<pleia2> vote at meeting?
<knome> meeting is 30
<knome> let's have another meeting just for this
<knome> basically we only need me and ochosi 
<pleia2> ooohhhh kay
<knome> because art team + XPL
<pleia2> what time?
<knome> ochosi, 19utc works for you?
<knome> or 17, 18
<ochosi> i think we should be all three of us for the vote
<knome> argument please
<pleia2> because I am hella cool
<ochosi> 1) i value pleia2's opinion
<knome> (i don't have anything against pleia2 being there and voting, but to be transparent)
<ochosi> 2) three is easier because there's a tie-breaker
<knome> XPL is the ultimate tie-breaker ;)
<pleia2> I can play tie breaker if you need one
<pleia2> lol
<ochosi> hehe
<pleia2> king knome
<knome> i was thinking 3) she's the marketing lead
<ochosi> sounds like king-kong
<ochosi> knome: yeah, i thought 2 were enough, but i guess we can find more reasons
<pleia2> knome isn't as hairy
<knome> i'm fine with that
<ochosi> 4) more gender balanced voting team
<knome> pleia2, hah :)
<knome> ochosi, that's a good point.
<knome> so there's 2 of us ladies and you ochosi then
<knome> wait...
<pleia2> imma vote for all the pink ones
<ochosi> awesome
<knome> haha
<Noskcaj> lol
<knome> i wonder if there is many
<ochosi> if we could submit anonymously, i'd submit a unicorn with rainbows
<ochosi> but if i submit it as me and then vote it in, it looks bad
<knome> sourced from the place where the sun doesn't shine?
<knome> if that, i can upvote it.
<Noskcaj> I'll do that under one of my brothers' names if you wany
<Noskcaj> *want
<Noskcaj> stupid keyboard
<knome> tell me what's a good "contribute" icon?
<knome> ochosi, applications-development?
<Noskcaj> knome on an uncle sam poster?
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> knome: contribute icon for where?
<knome> Noskcaj, put that in a 24x24 icon...
<knome> ochosi, generally.
<knome> ochosi, in a wiki, where context *is* available
<ochosi> knome: as applications-development, many us a dipper
<ochosi> use
<knome> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Cinclus_cinclus_R%28ThKraft%29.jpg ?
<knome> weird. :)
<ochosi> brownbird?
<knome> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipper
<knome> maybe i'll use a "communication" icon
<ochosi> weird
<ochosi> i meant a masonry trowel
<ochosi> seemingly some refer to that as dipper
<knome> heh, yeah
<knome> that's what humanity has
<knome> so shall we pick 19utc as the meeting time for jan 29?
<ochosi> sounds fine to me
<ochosi> it's kinda dinner time, but it won't take too long i hope
<Noskcaj> Could any of you give me a testimonial for MOTU/xubuntu-packageset? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Noskcaj#MOTU
<knome> Noskcaj, i don't know enough to write such, sorry
<ochosi> Noskcaj: i'd love to, but i don't have a clue about packaging, so my testimonial would be worthless
<Noskcaj> just say that i help xubuntu or something
<ochosi> can do that
<ochosi> in the membership or the motu section?
<Noskcaj> I've just added a separate category for xubuntu packageset
<ochosi> Noskcaj: done
<Noskcaj> thanks ochosi 
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> let us know how it goes!
<ochosi> i'm keeping my fingers crossed for you
<ochosi> (metaphorically, need them too much for typing)
<Noskcaj> It will be another month at least since the 19UTC meeting got canceled for this month
<Noskcaj> and 15UTC is 2am
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> yeah, that's kinda late-ish
<Noskcaj> ;)
<ochosi> bbiab
<Unit193> Really?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-14
<ochosi> have any of you tried the xfce4-taskbar-plugin?
<ochosi> i think so far it's not packaged, only in git.xfce.org
<ochosi> but it doesn't look bad, i have to say
<Unit193> Shot?
<ochosi> well it looks the same as the windowlist plugin
<ochosi> but you can pin apps to it
<ochosi> so it behaves as launcher+windowlist
<ochosi> like win7 or any dock
<ochosi> could be a nice way of saving space in the panel
<ochosi> or even of making the bottom panel more useful
<Unit193> Uh oh, bad words, "dock" and "like win7"
<ochosi> yeah, but it's practical
<ochosi> and it'd be much better than the current bottom panel
<ochosi> we'd have more space to use in the top panel
<ochosi> default panel-setups are too political, i really don't like that
<ochosi> (and very individual/subjective)
<Unit193> "This plugin is now shipped with xfce4-panel >= 4.4.0." Hrm...  "Political" alrighty...
<ochosi> yeah, the plugin actually needs a small makefile-fix to work with the current panel
<ochosi> and probably more work on the theming side
<jjfrv8> pleia2, thanks for replying to that guy's question on the ML
<Noskcaj> Can someone look into improving and updating our wikipedia page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xubuntu
<knome> Noskcaj, it's a work item; feel free to take it
<Noskcaj> it is?
<knome> yes
<pleia2> I'm still concerned about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest
<pleia2> was going to find a wikipedia person to talk to, but I haven't yet
<Noskcaj> And i can't, since all me emails got banned from wikipedia when people realised i had an actual account and changed other stuff
<Noskcaj> *my
<pleia2> tsk
<knome> it would be best if somebody outside the team would do that, yes
<Unit193> #wikimedia ?
<bluesabre> ochosi: I hope you pushed that makefile fix to some easily accessible branch ;)
<forestpiskie> ochosi: send me the unicorn with rainbows and I'll get little one to submit it :p
<elfy> ochosi: so it occurred again - only thing terminal shows is "(process:11237): GLib-CRITICAL **: g_slice_set_config: assertion 'sys_page_size == 0' failed"
<elfy> but there are a few lines of that - and I'm pretty positive it was prior to xchat going all 1990's on me :)
<elfy> all I cam see in logs - is a bunch of Nouveau modelines in xorg log and resize called
<elfy> not sure where <ochosi> ideally check the logs of xfsettingsd 
<elfy> what I might do is install nvidia for it and see if it occurs in there
<ochosi> elfy: hey there
<ochosi> thanks for testing again
<ochosi> elfy: re:log: you could try "tail -f ~/.cache/upstart/startxfce4.log" before you start xchat
<ochosi> and then keep that terminal-window visible while you watch it break
<ochosi> or just check that logfile for suspicious output
<elfy> ahah
<elfy> ochosi: http://pastebin.com/i7Wb2ckZ timestamp is about right for when I saw it :)
<elfy> but I will do ^^ to verify 
<ochosi> ok, that looks suspicious enough
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> no idea though what Crtc is yet
<elfy> I'll verify it and then I'll install nvidia and do it all again 
<ochosi> yeah, sounds like it's graphics related
<ochosi> could you pls also paste a few more of the surrounding lines?
<ochosi> especially before
<elfy> ochosi: of course :)
<elfy> http://pastebin.com/6FvmU3dJ
<elfy> running that tail in terminal now 
<ochosi> ok, thanks
<brainwash> ochosi: "Log In" button again after hibernation, so lightdm reports a wrong status
<elfy> ochosi: so it happened again - nothing reported in terminal but similar in startxfce4.log -> http://pastebin.com/EbuLEQwR
<ochosi> brainwash: you could report a bug vs. lightdm
<brainwash> ochosi: yes, I'll do that
<brainwash> anyone else actually testing light-locker (trusty)?
<ochosi> forestpiskie: so it happened with both nouveau and nvidia?
<forestpiskie> ochosi - not actually installed nvidia yet - just wanted to get a verification that I got the same thing in the log before I did that
<forestpiskie> bbl
<ochosi> okeydokey
<forestpiskie> ochosi: I've installed it now - but I'm away till later - not likely to get a chance to look till the morning. On another point - if you happen to see the -dev m/l there's a guy there with  ind-sound issues since trying the gtk3 stuff - if you get chance to see that and have an answer for him that would be great
<forestpiskie> cya tomorrow
<ochosi> k, seeya!
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, is your server down for maintenance or do you know if there's a problem?
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, whatever it was, it looks like it has been resolved :)
<Noskcaj> Has anyone else had the latest kernal update make startup impossible?
<brainwash> Noskcaj: trusty?
<Noskcaj> brainwash, yeah
<brainwash> my system seems to boot normally
<brainwash> 3.12.0-7
<Noskcaj> I swapped back to the -5 kernal and that fixed it. Hopefully and update will be enough
<brainwash> you should bisect this issue :P
<brainwash> ochosi: different setup (laptop, saucy, suspend) and the button is labeled "Log In" also
<brainwash> but you cannot confirm this, right?
<ochosi> brainwash: hibernate is disabled here
<ochosi> so i've only tested with suspend, which works fine
<brainwash> did I mention hibernate? :)
<brainwash> it's a different setup
<brainwash> so suspend/hibernate is affected
<knome> so...
<knome> when i disconnect today, it can take some while until i have a stable connection
<brainwash> ochosi: according to my logs lightdm does not get asked by the greeter about logged in users when I suspend/hibernate the system
<brainwash> so it will display the login button and the font of activate users will remain normal (instead of bold)
<brainwash> ali1234: are you testing light-locker? if yes, does the greeter display the "Log In" or "Unlock" button after a suspend/hibernate?
<ali1234> well i;m sort of testing it
<ali1234> but i never lock my computer
<ali1234> so i don't know
<brainwash> mmh, we need more testers for the new stuff
<brainwash> I'll try to add some more debug output to lightdm/gtk-greeter
<brainwash> it works fine for ochosi, but it does not for me on two different systems (saucy/trusty, suspend/hibernate)
<ochosi> brainwash: weird. i don't get why it would work for me but not for you
<ochosi> but then again, audio-playback doesn't stop for me when i lock my session...
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-15
<brainwash> ochosi: your system is just.. awesome :D
<brainwash> your screen gets locked automatically via dbus, right? or via xfce4-session and xflock4 (light-locker-command)?
<ochosi> acutally it gets locked via X11's builtin screensaver
<ochosi> brainwash: ^
<ochosi> light-locker does automatic time-based locking based on whatever is set in "xset s"
<brainwash> on suspend?
<brainwash> and does the version trusty already support the time-based locking?
<ochosi> not sure what version there is
<ochosi> 1.1.0 supports it
<ochosi> on suspend it autolocks, yes
<ochosi> light-locker listens to the suspend command and locks the screen
<ochosi> there's not even a switch currently to turn that off
<brainwash> yeah, I know that :)
<brainwash> 1.0.0 in trusty
<knome> bbl, back sometime...
<brainwash> ochosi: ok, so both systems here run 1.0.0
<ochosi> i can see that we do a new stable release soon
<ochosi> there aren't really any more features we want for now i think
<brainwash> uhm, what about the ability to show screensavers? xD
<brainwash> so no plans for a GUI settings window or something like that?
<ochosi> that certainly is out of the scope of light-locker
<ochosi> well a gui for settings, i hope yes
<ochosi> but ideally it'll get integrated in other settings dialogs
<ochosi> no need for specific light-locker settings tbh
<ochosi> ppl need to be able to set the X11 screensaver for blanking
<ochosi> and maybe enable/disable the time-based locking
<ochosi> and that's about it
<brainwash> mmh, you still need a GUI which is DE independent
<brainwash> or at least a conf file
<ochosi> the conf is done by the distributors atm
<ochosi> by setting the startup command
<ochosi> thing is that UI would literally contain a checkbox or two and a gtkspinbutton for setting the timeout
<brainwash> it somehow feels a bit incomplete for a LTS release, or?
<brainwash> incomplete/basic
<ochosi> i'm not sure what's missing
<ochosi> i always wanted it to be basic
<ochosi> it's not called "fancy-locker" for a reason
<brainwash> the average user wants to be able to control it
<ochosi> yeah, but ideally they will be able to
<ochosi> via setting timeouts in powermanager-settings
<ochosi> that needs fixes for logind anyway, adding a way of enabling the X11 screensaver and setting its timeout shouldn't be too hard
<brainwash> doe we have a test case for light-locker?
<ochosi> not sure
<brainwash> it might cause some unexpected failures
<brainwash> ochosi: is a request needed to upgrade to 1.1.0?
<brainwash> this is the initial packaging request bug 1237134
<ubottu> bug 1237134 in light-locker (Ubuntu) "[needs-packaging] light-locker -- lightdm-based session locker" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1237134
<ochosi> i think we need to release a new stable version in order to get ubuntu folks to update it
<ochosi> since it's an LTS release, i would expect them to want something that's also labelled stable
<ochosi> even if there won't be additional fixes
<brainwash> I see
<brainwash> "Preparing to release 1.1.0"
<ochosi> anyway, if you wanna write a tiny app that sets the screensaver values, that'd be welcome
<ochosi> i personally don't have any time to take care of that, too many other things (and christmas) coming up
<brainwash> with my amount of knowledge and experience it would take weeks
<brainwash> finding the right way to do it
<brainwash> or a "good" way
<ochosi> i think ubuntu handle it all via their session
<ochosi> so no additional settings dialog is needed there
<rowboatn1ck> wouldnt you just need to change .xscreensaver?
<brainwash> ochosi: right, because it's familiar with gnome-screensaver
<ochosi> rowboatn1ck: no, that's for xscreensaver
<rowboatn1ck> there's a new one?
<ochosi> i was talking about X11's screensaver extension (aka libxss)
<ochosi> we're planning to replace xscreensaver with light-locker
<ochosi> which blanks the screen with X11 and un/locks it via lightdm's greeter
<rowboatn1ck> ah
<brainwash> ochosi: make xfce4-session aware of light-locker (and not care that much about other DEs)?
<ochosi> brainwash: there's a misunderstanding here: there's no need for awareness of light-locker specifically, only of X11's screensaver extension
<ochosi> light-locker only listens to libxss
<ochosi> and reacts to blanking by locking shortly thereafter
<ochosi> so basically anything that manages X11's settings works with light-locker
<brainwash> and to dbus messages
<ochosi> that's we're a bit reluctant to create a UI for it i guess
<ochosi> +why
<ochosi> yeah, to those as well
<ochosi> xflock will be patched, so manual locking will work fine
<brainwash> but I mean, xfce4-session locks the screen on suspend/hibernate via xflock4 if the users activates it
<brainwash> deactivating it won't work as of now
<ochosi> yeah, not with light-locker 1.0
<brainwash> but with 1.1.0?
<brainwash> with the current available snapshot I mean
<ochosi> with the daily PPA, it'll auto-lock on suspend
<ochosi> not sure it'll do anything on hibernate
<ochosi> it could also be that you have your issue because the session does something wrong when locking via xflock
<ochosi> i'm really not sure, i've never used it like that tbh
<brainwash> we should threat suspend and hibernate equally =S
<ochosi> yeah, but hibernate isn't enabled in ubuntu by default
<brainwash> no, xflock4 does not even get called
<ochosi> hence the same is true for xubuntu
<ochosi> so it's already not treated the same way
<brainwash> it's via session/dbus
<ochosi> ah ok
<ochosi> maybe there's the problem, i don't know the session-code
<brainwash> xflock4 isn't even patched yet
<ochosi> wasn't there a merge-request?
<brainwash> ochosi: one last question, your system switches to vt8 after you resume the system, right?
<ochosi> i specifically remember someone from ubuntu-devel asking me about the MR and i "approved" it
<ochosi> yeah
<brainwash> not before the system enters the suspend sate
<brainwash> state
<brainwash> ok
<ochosi> before i suspend, i see the light-locker-screen show for a sec or so, then nothing
<ochosi> when it wakes up, the screen is blank (because that's what the greeter now does by default when it's in locker-state)
<ochosi> then i move my mouse or hit a key, enter my password and i'm logged in again
<brainwash> https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfce4-session/light-locker
<brainwash> yes
<ochosi> i don't know enough about debian packaging, but to me it's weird that there's the patch and it's also already applied
<ochosi> but maybe that's how it's supposed to be
<ochosi> other than that it looks ok
<ochosi> so i hope Noskcaj follows up on it
<brainwash> I guess he knows how this stuff works
<brainwash> so it's the quilt patch + the actual patched code
<ochosi> yup
<brainwash> mmh, any news regarding bug 1222021 ?
<ubottu> bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager does not inhibit systemd from handling buttons and lid events" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021
<brainwash> I'll try to get the importance level raised to high, because the user might lose data if the system performs a shutdown on button press (no dialog) or when the system tries to suspend on a system which does not support it properly
<brainwash> on top of that, it affects many users
<ochosi> yeah, but it won't help i guess
<ochosi> unless someone writes a patch
<ochosi> (i mean the importance level alone)
<ochosi> that would be one alternative, have a simple systemd settings app that also controls the screensaver
<brainwash> true, not even "critical" would change anything =S
<ochosi> then we dont need the powermanager anymore
<ochosi> rowboatn1ck: wanna write some UI code again? ;) ^
<brainwash> power manager also controls screen brightness and other settings
<brainwash> and different profiles for battery and AC mode
<elfy> ochosi: finally got around to adding lightlocker/ removing xscreensaver - seems the shortcut to it is ctrl+alt+L - not working for me here
<brainwash> elfy: did you also patch xflock4?
<elfy> no - why should I have
<elfy> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-December/009478.html
<brainwash> because the shortcut calls xflock4
<elfy> doesn't say anything about fiddling about, if it's nto prod ready that's fine - just assumed it was
<brainwash> https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfce4-session/light-locker
<brainwash> so a branch does already exist, merging and packaging takes some time =S
<elfy> thanks - brainwash - I'll wait for that to land then
<elfy> yep - indeed :)
<elfy> just trying to make sure this machine has everything installable we hope to land in April actually installed
<brainwash> right, the new stuff should be included asap I think
<elfy> yep
<brainwash> and we got plenty of changes and new features
<elfy> I think the only 'new' stuff not installed here is menulibre and mugshot
<brainwash> gtk3 indicator support
<brainwash> the mentioned light-locker integration
<brainwash> and the patches for the smooth background transition
<elfy> yea
<brainwash> whisker menu
<elfy> though I've got both installed atm 
<elfy> and that
<brainwash> and the panel layout loader/saver tool
<brainwash> :D
<elfy> no idea about that
<elfy> if people doing these things don't actaully say on the mailing list then they get missed
<elfy> bbl
<brainwash> bye
<elfy> have a good day brainwash :)
<elfy> bluesabre: is there a trusty source for mugshot yet?
<elfy> the daily ppa appears to not have one
<elfy> ochosi: side effect here with removing xscreensaver and installing lightlocker - now affected by Bug 1193716 
<ubottu> bug 1193716 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Monitor turns off after 10 minutes of inactivity despite the fact that XScreensaver has been removed from Lubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1193716
<knome> oh yay!
<knome> i has internets!
<GridCube> yay!
<GridCube> :D
<bluesabre> elfy: good point, I've added a trusty build, should finish shortly
<bluesabre> elfy, please see my comment on that bug
<elfy> bluesabre: k - cheers and I saw the comment :)
<elfy> knome: always useful :)
<brainwash> doesn't the power manager allow to configure the timer for screen blanking?
<brainwash> elfy: can you please suspend/hibernate your system and after resume check if the login greeter displays the "Log In" or "Unlock" button?
<elfy> I tried suspend a short while ago - when I was looking at the lock screen thing - coming out of suspend - just goes straight to where I suspended from
<elfy> no login nor unlock
<brainwash> show while ago? after installing light-locker / making it the default?
<brainwash> short
<elfy> yea - after lightlocker install
<elfy> I'm not really here atm
<brainwash> so it should automatically lock your session every time you suspend/hibernate the system
<brainwash> via session menu
<elfy> of course
<brainwash> ochosi: still don't understand this, lightdm reports that the greeter is not being used as lock screen (lock_hint not set)
<brainwash> ochosi: but it works if I manually lock the session before triggering suspend/hibernate
<knome> elfy, yep...
<bluesabre> elfy, did you restart, or run light-locker?
<bluesabre> the process has to be running to listen to suspend/hibernate/light-locker -l
<bluesabre> its added to autostart, but not started automatically until you've logged out or run "light-locker"
<elfy> no - no restart done - I'll check tomorrow then - but then I also applied setterm -blank 0 -powerdown 0 now 
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, you have to set that timeout via "xset s $seconds" in the terminal atm
<ochosi> we'll have to fix that somehow, not sure yet how/where
<bluesabre> ochosi: create a lightweight alternative to the xscreensaver settings
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, or just fix powermanager to be able to set those values
<bluesabre> but then what about the lubuntu folks?
<ochosi> i thought they also use the powermanager?
<bluesabre> maybe
<bluesabre> we need to figure out what to do with this, want to create a wiki page or lp blueprint?
<ochosi> one sec, i'm actually trying to follow up on the panel issues atm
<ochosi> (alpha and bg issues i mean)
<bluesabre> ok, cool
<brainwash> bluesabre: do you test/use light-locker?
<bluesabre> yeah, or I have in the past, haven't set it up on my new laptop yet
<bluesabre> but I can answer any questions about it
<brainwash> does the gtk greeter show the "log in" or "unlock" button after resuming from suspend/hibernate? :P
<bluesabre> should show "unlock"
<bluesabre> because it locks the screen when it suspends
<brainwash> right, but lightdm does report a wrong status (lock_hint not set)
<brainwash> for me (2 different systems)
<bluesabre> so lightdm shows Log in for you then?
<brainwash> yes
<brainwash> but it works properly if I manually lock the screen and the suspend/hibernate
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> ochosi ^
<brainwash> ochosi cannot confirm this :/
<brainwash> so I'm trying to find someone to confirm this issue
<bluesabre> are you running saucy or trusty?
<brainwash> one system is saucy, the other one is trusty
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> covering all the bases ;)
<brainwash> one can only suspend, the other one only hibernate :D
<ochosi> so...
<brainwash> basically they are totally different
<ochosi> not covering all the bases ;)
<bluesabre> I'm not familiar with the code, but I might take a look and see if anything sticks out to me
<brainwash> if I manually lock the session, I will get redirected to vt8 _before_ entering the suspend state
<brainwash> but automatically via dbus _after_ resuming
<ochosi> my guess is that xfce4-session locks only after coming back from suspend
<ochosi> light-locker locks it before going into suspend
<ochosi> (because it seemed safer)
<brainwash> xfce4-session does nothing actually, only triggering the suspend process
<brainwash> xflock4 is not called
<ochosi> might be a bug in the session then
<bluesabre> not really a session bug, it doesn't lock by default on suspend
<bluesabre> light-locker's lock activates when it detects the suspend-signal
<bluesabre> but thats probably too late
<bluesabre> so it locks when it comes back
<bluesabre> is my guess
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> not sure, it locks on time here
<ochosi> when i hit suspend, i see the lockscreen of light-locker for a split-second
<bluesabre> probably a race condition
<ochosi> maybe, but it has been working consistently here for a long while
<ochosi> anyway, it wouldn't hurt to let the session take care of that
<bluesabre> maybe we can upstream it with nick, or add an ubuntu-patch
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i'm not at all familiar with the session code though
<ochosi> also: the powermanager also handles that
<ochosi> so duplocate functionality
<ochosi> i think the powerman calls xflock
<ochosi> (but it doesn't work with logind)
<ochosi> it's a huge mess, imo
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> "modularity"
<ochosi> :/
<ochosi> imo we should fix the powermanager
<ochosi> first ubuntu-patch it
<ochosi> or convince nick that it needs patching
<ochosi> but we really need a fix for that for 14.04
<ochosi> at least proper logind support
<brainwash> https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/X11:xfce/xfce4-power-manager
<brainwash> patches do exist
<brainwash> gnome-screensaver shows the "unlock" button after resume
<ochosi> we should try to get those patches then...
<brainwash> contact the ubuntu package maintainer
<bluesabre> prtty sure that would be "Xubuntu Developers"
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> yup
<forestpiskie> ok - see lock screen on way to suspending - comes back to login screen
<forestpiskie> screen still blanking after 10 minutes - I assume that'll get sorted eventually
<forestpiskie> back tomorrow
<ochosi> forestpiskie: did you move your mouse?
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> screen still blanking means: use "xset s $timeout" in your running session
<ochosi> this setting doesn't get restored
<ochosi> so you'd have to add it to your autostarted apps
<brainwash> welcome back to 1999 :D
<brainwash> ochosi: does the background of gtk3 indicator panel item become transparent occasionally?
<brainwash> like full transparent
<ochosi> no, not atm
<jjfrv8> brainwash, hi. Did you ever file a bug for the Abiword ruler issue? I'm seeing it with the current daily.
<ochosi> and if you do, please file it against abiword :)
<brainwash> jjfrv8: not yet
<jjfrv8> did you still plan to or do you want me to?
<brainwash> open an extra window like the about dialog one and it will restore the ruler
<brainwash> oh, the about dialog is missing an icon
<ochosi> really?
<brainwash> yeah, feel free to report it
<ochosi> can you show me a screenshot of it?
<ochosi> or is it one that abiword would usually provide
<brainwash> it's showing the "image not available" one
<ochosi> hm
<ochosi> weird
<jjfrv8> yes
<brainwash> the usual abiword strangeness
<ochosi> brainwash: when you get back from hibernation, other than the lock-hint missing you can re-login to your session, right?
<brainwash> yes, everything seems to work properly
<ochosi> ok, so only the lock-hint is missing
<ochosi> i'm talking to robert_ancell in #ubuntu-devel atm
<brainwash> lightdm responds with "(null)"
<ochosi> mind to join quickly and report your exp?
<ochosi> just in two sentences or so
<brainwash> we just need some people to test this scenario :/
<jjfrv8> Abiword bug 1261203
<ubottu> bug 1261203 in abiword (Ubuntu) "Abiword top ruler hidden by gray area on first open" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1261203
<brainwash> jjfrv8: did you test other themes?
<jjfrv8> no, I didn't think it mattered much if you get it on a fresh install
<brainwash> it seemed to work ok in Unity and Lubuntu
<brainwash> but in Xubuntu/Xfce all/most themes were affected
<brainwash> I will need to verify this
<jjfrv8> just tried a couple; default, bluebird. problem still there.
<brainwash> which icon theme do you use?
<brainwash> this is a screenshot of my abiword http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/abiword.php
<jjfrv8> the default, elementary Xfce darker
<brainwash> mine looks slightly different
<jjfrv8> my first screenshot looked just like yours - I put it in the bug. Now I'm getting a slightly different one
<brainwash> I cannot recall that I've changed it to something other than xfce darker
<ochosi> brainwash: are you using the shimmer-daily PPA?
<brainwash> no
<ochosi> cause i removed the gnome-icon theme dependency there to trigger all missing icons
<ochosi> so i can add them
<jjfrv8> ochosi, I am
<brainwash> you mean the abiword about dialog icon?
<ochosi> yup
<brainwash> ok, so the change needs to be reverted?
<ochosi> no, since you're not using the PPA, the bug is somewhere else
<brainwash> but why isn't abiword showing its own icon/symbol? o.o
<brainwash> maybe a general abiword bug
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> dinner-time, bbiab
<jjfrv8> I'm off for a bit too
<skellat> Anybody have time to take a peek at LP Bug #1211933 perhaps?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1211933 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "mkinitramfs blows up on casper dependency" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1211933
<Haythem> heeey
<Haythem> anyone here ?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-12-08
<jjfrv8> ochosi, cool. That works for me.
<bluesabre> ochosi: good point... I'll figure out needs added and bring it in
<Unit193> ochosi: So, didn't quite say what you're doing for Xfwm.  But, technically yes I don't need to know, just give me a link or something.
<ochosi> Unit193: corner tiling, maximize on move mostly
<Unit193> Mhmm.
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> i've gotten in touch with cedric, who consolidated a patch by ali and added some other features
<ochosi> but we'll see, might take more time
<Unit193> Sounds fun...
<brainwash> I'm just installing vivid... and I see the maximize button in the installer
<brainwash> looks like bug 1177116 is not fixed completely
<ubottu> bug 1177116 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Xfwm4's 'dialog' window has an unused maximise-button" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1177116
<elfy> today's daily - minimise and close only
<brainwash> I'm talking about the installer window
<brainwash> the slideshow part has no maximize button
<elfy> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-081214-170915.php
<knome> isn't that minimize and maximise
<knome> /s/z/
<brainwash> indeed
<brainwash> elfy: what about normal dialog windows like the thunar about one?
<elfy> of course that has a maximise button
<elfy> brainwash: the bug is about the max button in the installer windows not applications
<brainwash> both
<elfy> no 
<brainwash> the description of my fix is "Remove maximize button from non-resizable windows"
<elfy> look at the screenshot with the bug - it's about the installer
<brainwash> the installer is just one example
<elfy> not sure what your point is - if thunar ends up with no max button - then that is a bug
<brainwash> nono, the thunar "about dialog"
<brainwash> help > about
<brainwash> or something like that
<elfy> oh
<elfy> well - that's not what you said ;)
<elfy> no maximise button :D
<brainwash> that's great, strangely no one has complained about the maximize button in the installer window so far
<brainwash> despite being marked as fixed
<elfy> I don't see a maximise button in the installer
<brainwash> the "+"
<elfy> oh lol - I saw that twisted round 45 degrees :p
<elfy> anyway - it's not showing in all the parts of the installer 
<elfy> and
<elfy> really not very important :p
<brainwash> no, but I will have to re-open the lp report
<elfy> now when you booted the media - did you  get a blackscreen at try/install
<brainwash> black background, yes
<elfy> k
<brainwash> makes wonder, if anyone is going to fix it
<brainwash> we got time until 16.04 :)
<elfy> I saw some discussion
<brainwash> yeah, there is much talking, but no fixing
<elfy> actually - only where are you/kbd layout and who are you have max button
<brainwash> elfy: and the "try or install" window
<brainwash> no plymouth screen for me, although I'm using the open source radeon driver
<brainwash> it's a slow system, so there would be plenty of time to show it
<elfy> wouldn't know without looking - and I'm afraid I can't find the interest to do that 
<ochosi> brainwash: i did see plymouth during startup of the live system
<Unit193> Ever seeing it is amazing in my book...
<brainwash> I see it on shutdown :)
<ochosi> Unit193: what, still no up-to-date panel-build? :]
<Unit193> ochosi: Got the tarball, but yes didn't poke it yet.
<ochosi> no worries ;)
<Unit193> Worth it to ping, since it's done now...
<ochosi> oh, nice :)
<ochosi> hmm, this is really old-school but somehow also quite likeable: http://xfce-look.org/content/show.php/Ivy?content=157974
<bluesabre> that does look nice
#xubuntu-devel 2014-12-09
<Unit193> Heh, yeah.  And ceni in there at that.
<Unit193> ochosi: So, xfwm4 will just be a huge patch atop 4.11.2 or head?
<ochosi> i guess head
<Unit193> Heh, so that'd be a "yes, just a huge patch atop"
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> maybe i'll also try to push something to github or a user-repo on git.xfce if that makes things easier for you
<ochosi> packaging-wise
<ochosi> Unit193: thanks for the panel, i'll test and then copy tomorrow
<ochosi> nighty
<Unit193> Sounds fun, g'night.
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<ochosi> Unit193 was kind enough to package the latest panel with intelligent hiding and i've just installed it locally and tested it out and so far it works as it should
<ochosi> so, next i'll copy it over to xubuntu-staging now
<ochosi> what versions do you think would be best for testers? generally we have 14.04->15.04
<ochosi> so i can also copy all three
<knome> just do that :)
<ochosi> ok, done
 * Unit193 likes to forget about trusty.
<knome> hey, many people are still using that!
<knome> including me
<ochosi> yeah, but even some of our team members are still using trusty
<ochosi> hah, there ya go :)
<knome> i'll switch at latest when there's only a few months of support for 14.10 left.
<Unit193> I have a server, and a non-desktop/desktop system using it, that's it.
<knome> Unit193, so two machines.. just as many as i do :P
<Unit193> knome: But any system I use with a desktop, or for that matter Xfce, is on utopic. :D
<knome> well congrats
<Unit193> (And in some aspects, trusty is far better.)
<ochosi> Unit193: nice, the panel build really works well with intelligent hiding. thanks for packaging that up!
<Unit193> Sure.
<ochosi> bbl
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, elfy, ochosi and bluesabre I chatted to some of you during UOS and Ubuntu MATE.
<ali1234> hi
<flexiondotorg> Are any of you available, I have some questions about patching some packages you're maintaing.
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, Hi
<flexiondotorg> Got a few mins?
<ali1234> sure
<flexiondotorg> Firstly, we chatted about adding indicators to Ubiquity in Xubuntu. Would like like the package list that would need adding to the 'live' seed to achieve this?
<flexiondotorg> This should cover it:
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-application
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-keyboard
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-power
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-session
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-sound
<ali1234> is that all you have to do, just add them to the seed?
<flexiondotorg> Providing you are using ubiquity-frontend-gtk, Yes.
<flexiondotorg> Ubiquity DM basically implements the indicator handler.
<ali1234> yes, so does lightdm
<flexiondotorg> Now, one of those segfaults on Ubuntu MATE.
<ali1234> or lightdm-gtk-greeter
<flexiondotorg> I'll just find the bug report so if you have the same issue in Xubuntu you can add to it.
<flexiondotorg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1369958
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1369958 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "indicator-keyboard crashes in Ubuntu MATE live installer" [Undecided,New]
<Unit193> We seed -application and -sound.
<flexiondotorg> Unit193, If you let the Xubuntu iso boot to Ubiquity, there are no indicators. Meaning that configuring network, and a11y is not possible.
<flexiondotorg> The packages I listed above, should be included in the 'live' seed to expose this functionality in the installer.
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, Do have any questions about that? Can I move on to the next topic?
<ali1234> i don't know anything about making livecds anyway
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, Well all that is required is to add those packages to the live seed. The build tools will take care of the rest.
<flexiondotorg> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.vivid/view/head:/live
<Unit193> I wouldn't add all of those though, and as I said, -sound and -application are in 'desktop', so when you boot into the live session they are installed (and running).  Not sure how ubiquity interacts with them at all though.
<Unit193> live == stuff only installed in the live session.
<flexiondotorg> Unit193, In which case you'd only require:
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-keyboard
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-power
<flexiondotorg>  * indicator-session
<flexiondotorg> Adding to 'live'
<flexiondotorg> You might also require indicator-network if that is not already in desktop or core.
<flexiondotorg> Ubiquity fully supports indicators, see the stock Ubuntu installer for reference.
<ali1234> what does the ubuntu desktop seed do?
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, I have some patches for indicator-sound-gtk2 and indicator-application-gtk2
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, Would you be able to merge them and release new packages vivid? I think you said you were a maintainer of those packages?
<ali1234> no, i said those packages have no maintainer
<ali1234> nobody else is using them
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, OK. Can you suggest how I might get those packages patched?
<ali1234> open a merge request on launchpad and then annoy the people in #ubuntu-desktop until they merge it
<ali1234> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.vivid/view/head:/live
<ali1234> this doesn't seem to include any indicator stuff?
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, I can't open a merge request. It says I don't have permission.
<flexiondotorg> I created this bug and attached the patch
<flexiondotorg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound-gtk2/+bug/1337241
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1337241 in indicator-sound-gtk2 (Ubuntu) "Sound Settings menu item in indicator-sound-gtk2 does nothing in MATE" [Undecided,New]
<ali1234> i can turn that into a MR if you want
<ali1234> you do have permission though, anyone does
<ali1234> according to launchpad you need to annoy micahg
<ali1234> and gilir
<ali1234> and maybe mr_pouit
<ali1234> i'm actually not sure if you want to make a MR against the upstream or the ubuntu package
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, What do you suggest?
<ali1234> find the last person who changed either and ask them
<flexiondotorg> Ask them what? 
<ali1234> how best to apply your patches
<flexiondotorg> OK
<flexiondotorg> Thanks.
<ali1234> unfortunately it looks like the last person was me
<knome> aaaand we have a winner!
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, I though so ð
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, Can you help then ð
<ali1234> sponsored by bdmurray but that doesn't mean much
<flexiondotorg> I'll see if I can create a MR for both.
<davmor2> ali1234: wompwompwomp.com
<ali1234> well the thing is the MR would be very different for the package vs upstream
<ali1234> but it looks like upstream is not getting synced any more into the distro
<ali1234> so looks like you'll need to do it against each package
<ali1234> for that you'll want to make a debdiff and... i forget
<ali1234> have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound-gtk2/+bug/1208204
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1208204 in Ubuntu Studio "[SRU]Update indicator-sound-gtk2 with patch" [Undecided,New]
<ali1234> that was done as a debdiff
<ali1234> but mainly because it had to be SRU'd
<ali1234> doing it this way will probably be best since upstreaming the patch would mean re-syncing all the patches in the package
<ali1234> and that sounds like a lot of work that nobody wants to do
<ali1234> if you post a debdiff on your bug it will auto subscribe the right people i think
<slickymasterWork> jjfrv8, thanks for the fabulous work on http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/1.4/start
<ochosi> flexiondotorg: actually we don't have a panel in the ubiquity live session, so no i've no idea where they should show up if we add them to the seed
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, There is a panel, it is just empty.
<ochosi> i guess the first step would be to add the xfce4-panel to the ubiquity session somehow and then make the indicators show up there...
<ochosi> if there is, i've never seen it though
<ochosi> or is it something ubiquity specific?
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, Yes, it is part of Ubiquity
<flexiondotorg> I'll post a screenshot...
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, OK, appologies.
<flexiondotorg> There is not panel in Xubuntu 14.04 Ubiquity.
<flexiondotorg> Odd, because while I was making Ubuntu MATE I had an empty panel displayed in Ubiquity.
<ochosi> interesting
<ochosi> i mean in general it sounds like a good idea to show a panel there with the indicators
<flexiondotorg> Theme related?
<ochosi> nah, that has nothing to do with themes at all
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, The reason I added the indicators was to expose the a11y features.
<flexiondotorg> And configure the network.
<ochosi> but there are e.g. notifications about available wifis but there's no way to connect to them, so that blows a bit :)
<ochosi> yeah, makes sense to me
<ochosi> i just have no idea how to show our panel there yet
<ochosi> just adding the indicators alone will not suffice i suppose
<ochosi> but frankly, i don't know enough about the ubiquity session
<elfy> ochosi: ack re panle
<elfy> which is like panel :p
<Unit193> Only more le.
<ochosi> elfy: thanks.
<ochosi> as soon as you've sent out the announcement i'll forward it to g+
<elfy> ochosi: cool - just saw it in ppa - as soon as I've successfully upgraded to it then I'll post 
<ochosi> ty
<elfy> ochosi: just so I am completely sure - the plan is to test this and then get it in properly to default xubuntu?
<ochosi> elfy: the idea is to test it and if it works ok, i'll ask andrzejr to do a panel development release, which will in turn end up in xubuntu
<ochosi> so yeah, what you said, but with one or two corners more
<elfy> one more question - how do we want people to report bugs? because apport obviously throws a fit with ppa's
<elfy> ochosi: okey doke 
<ochosi> ideally, they would report bugs upstream
<ochosi> i hope there won't be bugs though :]
<ochosi> (but usually there always are)
<elfy> ok - I guessed as much - just making sure 
<elfy> ha ha yea :)
<ochosi> adding "intelligent hiding" to the bug title will help
<elfy> ok 
<ochosi> and even replying to the thread on our ml with a link to the bugreport/s would be fair
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> just to make sure, the reports are visible enough
<ochosi> -,
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, I didn't mean to hog the whole thing, but there just didn't seem to be enough there to split up :)
<jjfrv8> ochosi, elfy, I got the panel update and will test. OK so far.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: i guess you've set the panel to intelligent hiding already?
<jjfrv8> yup
<Unit193> ochosi: Full testcase, regression tests, and possible bug triggering?
<ochosi> not sure a testcase makes sense, i guess it'll be more exploratory testing in everyday situations
<ochosi> in terms of testcase, i've pretty much gone through it with andrzejr
<ochosi> but yeah, if there are bugs or things that don't work (e.g. plugins that make the panel hide, like datetime used to before i fixed it), that'd be good to know
<ochosi> for now i hope that it'll be the plugins' fault
<jjfrv8> ochosi, I notice that switching to an open terminal window, even if it's not maximized, brings the panel back. Is that normal?
<ochosi> the concept of intelligent hiding means that the panel shows up when the focused window doesn't overlap (i.e. in terms of position or in terms of being maximized)
<jjfrv8> ah yes, I see now. (and you had already explained that before. my bad :(
<ochosi> no worries
<ochosi> could be that we also have to clarify that in the call for testing, in order not to get invalid bugreports
<Unit193> I thought "intelligent hiding" was it only pops up when you don't want it, and can't find it when you do. :(
<ochosi> that sounds more like silly hiding
<Unit193> Had a program that made the Windows start button do that once...
<sidi> ochosi, i feel you have a burning need to not talk about xfpm versioning :-P
<ochosi> sidi: well it's simply grown historically to what it is today and we've just continued with the existing direction/tradition is all
<sidi> oops i wrote on #xub
<ochosi> that not being consistent with -core is simply a pointless discussion, was all i was trying to point out
<ochosi> yeah, that too :)
<sidi> ochosi, :-)
<slickymasterWork> np jjfrv8 
<Unit193> Well if there's nothing else on the agenda, could see if the ppas are working correctly, or see if $foo is working correctly.
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, feel free to add that to the agenda though
<etwarrior> elfy, or anybody for that matter... I know I've briefly mentioned I'm interested in helping with developing, not only to translate for French, but I'd like to even perhaps help in testing of Xubuntu on my old Windows XP machine?
<etwarrior> Perhaps... we'll see.
<etwarrior> I was sent by GridCube .
<GridCube> :)
<etwarrior> I know I'd love to translate.
<etwarrior> But my French isn't spot-on.
<etwarrior> But I can try.
<GridCube> i think slickymasterWork was the one coordinating translation efforts
<ochosi> tbh i'm not sure translating to a language that you have the feeling is not "spot on" is a good idea
<ochosi> might end up in misleading translations, which might be worse than no translation at all in some cases
<ochosi> (as a word of caution ^ )
<etwarrior> Okay, but I do understand how the grammar works of the language, and stuff like that.
<GridCube> etwarrior: mister ochosi here is the xubuntu's  development team leader :D
<etwarrior> The adjective always comes after the noun.
<etwarrior> Oh yes, we've met before... :~)
<ochosi> GridCube: actually i'm only the XPL, bluesabre is the development lead ;)
<slickymasterWork> etwarrior, even though our goal is to have all the idioms translated, but not at any price 
<GridCube> P: oh right
<slickymasterWork> hey ochosi, GridCube 
<etwarrior> slickymasterWork, understandable.
<slickymasterWork> etwarrior, with that aim in mind and with the goal of providing a perfect Xubuntu experience in other native languages, we do ask that any translation effort should only be addressed by someone that holds a full dominion of the language in question 
<etwarrior> I need to wait a few days before I sign up on your ubuntuone page, I'm switching Email providers... I should be all good to go this upcoming Sunday.
<etwarrior> My current email provider (hushmail) only allows 25MB for the free version... and though it's supposedly private, I've heard that hushmail leaked it's user's data in the past... I'm switching to another more on the private side email firm, with a bit more free-space included for the free version, supposedly I'm supposed to get 5GB of space, which should really help.
<slickymasterWork> in any case etwarrior, every help is welcome
<etwarrior> Thank you.
<slickymasterWork> and regarding Xubuntu documentation at large, you can also branch it for proof-reading spelling and grammar, checking consistency of formatting, checking consistency of language and style or writing glossary entries and adding entries to the index
<slickymasterWork> I mean branch the xubuntu documentation package 
<slickymasterWork> if you think you'll need some help with, please fell free to ping at any time
<etwarrior> Thanks.
<etwarrior> Proof-read in English, or French, or bot?
<etwarrior> both*
<slickymasterWork> in we feel comfortable with both idioms, of course 
<slickymasterWork> even though if you'll think that something should/ought be corrected in the French translation, the only way will be able to corrected will be by proposing a new translations to the string(s)
<slickymasterWork> s/ in we/if you
<etwarrior> I see.
<slickymasterWork> I'm not sure whether you check it or not, but you could have a read at http://xubuntu.org/contribute/support_documentation/
<elfy> image testing is easy enough - test dailies in a vm if you can't do hardware, test milestones when we call for them http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker
<elfy> ochosi: I guess there's no way for someone to only test panel for intellihide without testing all the other packages, without enabling the staging ppa to upgrade panel on it's own then disabling it
<elfy> I can't think of another simple method
<brainwash> download the packages manually from the launchpad site
<elfy> that isn't going to require a whole bunch of instructions for people testing
<elfy> I've never bothered trying to download single packages from a PPA tbh 
<elfy> ochosi: alternatively we assume that people testing have enough knowledge to deal with a ppa with different packages and decide for themselves what to use
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, ochosi I am making some change to Ubiquity.
<flexiondotorg> ubiquity-dm expressly disables it's panel when xfwm4 is detected.
<flexiondotorg> if (os.path.exists('/usr/lib/ubiquity/panel') and
<flexiondotorg>                     "xfwm4" not in wm_cmd):
<flexiondotorg> That is why no Ubiquity panel in Xubuntu I think.
<ali1234> isn't that for when you install from the live desktop?
<flexiondotorg> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/view/head:/bin/ubiquity-dm#L500
<flexiondotorg> Yes, the Ubiquity panel is displayed if you don't interrupt the boot process. You get to the "Install Xubuntu" "Try Xubuntu" graphical menu.
<flexiondotorg> The Ubiquity panel is displayed on the top, similar to LightDM.
<ali1234> and if you select "install xubuntu"?
<flexiondotorg> If you do that ^^^^^ Ubquity remains and so does the panel.
<ali1234> right
<ali1234> and if you select "try xubuntu" you get the xubuntu desktop, which has indicators
<flexiondotorg> Also, I see xfwm4 disables compositing in the Ubiquity display manager. Compositing is required for the indicators to render correctly.
<ali1234> i don't understand
<ali1234> if xfwm is running you are on the desktop
<ali1234> then you get indicators via xfce4-panel
<flexiondotorg> No.
<flexiondotorg> Ubiquity has a display manager, ubiquity-dm.
<flexiondotorg> It launches a window manager.
<flexiondotorg> It search the file system for compatible window managers.
<ali1234> why aren't the indicators in the seed for ubuntu?
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, I think they are pulled in by other packages.
<flexiondotorg> I have to disable recommended packages in the Ubuntu MATE seeds otherwise I end up with most of GNOME3 and Unity.
<ali1234> ah
<flexiondotorg> Off, for a run. I'll be back later if you have questions.
<brainwash> elfy: your screenshot confuses me now http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-081214-170915.php
<brainwash> it shows the minimize and maximize button
<brainwash> here the "try and install" window started from desktop does show minimize and close
<elfy> I'd hope so too - I'd really hate for my vbox to not have those :p
<brainwash> "try or install"
<brainwash> is the "where are you?" window different?
<elfy> no idea - I don't often look at the install window - we don't test that
<elfy> [17:25] <elfy> actually - only where are you/kbd layout and who are you have max button
<elfy> in try 
<brainwash> a max button instead of a close button
<brainwash> ok
<brainwash> now we need to know if one can actually maximize that window :)
<elfy> you can't 
<elfy> as the bug says - it's pretty much useless
<elfy> and I really don't have much interest in this rather minor thing either tbh :)
<brainwash> I know, and it should not be there, but the fix seems to be incomplete
<brainwash> I am curious about this, because I thought that my patch works in general
<brainwash> but ubiquity is doing something special
<elfy> I guess so - I understand you've got an interest :D
<brainwash> 15.04 seems somewhat strange, now I also see the scramble background picture on second login
<brainwash> the first login is smooth
<elfy> nouveau?
<brainwash> no..... radeon
<elfy> restart or shutdown? 
<brainwash> login -> desktop
<elfy> no idea about radeon - but open source driver rather than ati?
<brainwash> yes, the open source radeon driver
<brainwash> that's the odd thing
<elfy> brainwash: you'll possibly see the same corruption on restart too 
<brainwash> 15.04 has some weird bugs and regressions
<brainwash> mainly hardware/driver
<elfy> all works much the same for me as 14.10 
<brainwash> I'll keep on testing
<brainwash> I've triggered apport few times already, but it does not seem send any reports (or at least open the web browser and let me file the report)
<elfy> mmm
<brainwash> can you confirm this?
<elfy> not sure it's turned on properly tbh 
<elfy> I edited /etc/apport/crashdb.conf 
<elfy>         'problem_types': ['Bug', 'Package', 'Crash'],
<elfy> added Crash there
<brainwash> I'll try that, thanks
<ochosi> flexiondotorg: no idea why the panel is disabled, maybe there were/are reasons, best way would to try i guess...
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, Well I've passed on what I know. You can test stuff out and refine your setup from here ð
<ochosi> sure thanks
<elfy> ochosi: thanks for meeting at a time I can make it :)
<brainwash> flexiondotorg: why is the panel needed?
<flexiondotorg> brainwash, The Ubiquity panel will auto load a number of indicators.
<flexiondotorg> So, the reason for the Ubiquity panel is to expose indicators that enable a11y, network configuration etc.
<brainwash> ubiquity is strange.. are you maintaining it?
<brainwash> currently the panel is missing, the background is black and some windows have an unneeded maximize button.. oh boy
<brainwash> xubuntu related issues ^
<flexiondotorg> brainwash, No, I'm the Ubuntu MATE maintainer.
<flexiondotorg> Not an Ubuntu/Canonical staffer.
<flexiondotorg> So, I've been patching Ubiquity to support MATE and marco (MATE window manager).
<brainwash> ah, I've installed MATE today for the first time
<flexiondotorg> I'm also on the upstream MATE team.
<brainwash> on top of my xubuntu test installation
<brainwash> that's awesome
<flexiondotorg> brainwash, It works ð
<flexiondotorg> I'm also an Arch Linux dev.
<flexiondotorg> Not sure, how I got talked into making an Ubuntu distro exactly.
<brainwash> changing the theme in MATE required a relog, is this expected?
<flexiondotorg> MATE theme change should be dynamic. Except for some system tray icons.
<flexiondotorg> That bug is being worked on currently.
<ali1234> xfce4-panel had that problem too
<flexiondotorg> ali1234, If you have any tips, much welcome ð
<ali1234> i dunno, i didn't fix it
<brainwash> well, nothing changed until I relog, so something is missing here
<ali1234> don't know if it is even fixed
<ali1234> i think we made the icons have a transparent background always
<ali1234> so even though they don't update, it doesn't matter
<ali1234> i've been helping people report bugs against mate too
<ali1234> seen some theme issues with chrome, and that's when i saw the panel thing
<brainwash> does MATE load indicators?
<ali1234> yes but only gtk2 ones
<brainwash> like xubuntu does
<brainwash> ah, that's why I did not see any
<ali1234> probably
<ali1234> are you using the ppa?
<ali1234> because mate in the repos is broken
<brainwash> no, 15.05
<brainwash> 15.04
<ali1234> i don't know the status of that
<brainwash> I'll add the PPA then
<ali1234> not sure about the status of the ppa with +1 either
<flexiondotorg> brainwash, Ubuntu MATE will load indicators using the old indicator-application-gtk2 package.
<flexiondotorg> I pushed some MRs today that add the required patches.
<flexiondotorg> Within Ubiquity, I make sure the various indicators are installed so that ubiquity-dm can load them.
<ali1234> indicator-application is just one indicator
<ali1234> sound is the only other one that has gtk2
<flexiondotorg> indication-sound-gtk2 is the other and indicator-application-gtk2 in combination with mate-indicator-applet can wrap other indicators.
<ali1234> no, it can't
<ali1234> indicator-application isn't lower in the stack
<ali1234> it's a simplified api for systray style icons
<ali1234> so for example indicator-application-gtk2 will not help you to display indicator-messages
<brainwash> flexiondotorg: how do you test ubiquity? can you start it inside a desktop environment?
<flexiondotorg> I've never done that. I have my own iso building scripts that (largely) mimic the official Canonical infrastructure.
<flexiondotorg> I use those to test stuff, since I can bind PPAs to the build.
<brainwash> I see
<brainwash> it seems like I cannot start it stand alone here
<flexiondotorg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubiquity <--- See the bottom on of the page
<brainwash> so I'll use live iso + live mode to test code changes
<brainwash> that's helpful also
<flexiondotorg> ubiquity-dm is just a python script so you could edit it in the live session.
<Unit193> Hey, so how does one start up maybe-ubiquity after booting with the  text  option?
<Unit193> brainwash: THere?
<ochosi> brainwash: i wonder whether that is actually a ubiquity bug (the maximise button)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-12-10
<brainwash> ochosi: I don't think so
<brainwash> ochosi: see http://media.cdn.ubuntu-de.org/wiki/attachments/00/17/UG1304-Install11.png for example
<brainwash> (ubuntu gnome)
<ochosi> that is ubuntu gnome?
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> well you can always check whether metacity or mutter check for other flags
<ochosi> for showing/hiding the maximise button
<brainwash> there is also no.. uhm.. menu button?
<brainwash> the "v" on the left side
<brainwash> maybe we could hide that too
<ochosi> sure we could
<brainwash> but it's a minor issue, fixing the black background and the missing panel is more important
<ochosi> the panel hasn't been there for ages and we haven't received a single bugreport about it, so i'd still tend to call it minor
<brainwash> wishlist
<brainwash> I don't know how it would work anyway
<brainwash> a blank panel + indicator-plugin?
<Unit193> And super simple to fix, I just did...
<brainwash> tell us more
<Unit193> It's not really a "fix" so much as to figure out why it's not enabled.
<brainwash> what does it enable?
<brainwash> panel with default configuration?
<ochosi> Unit193: the suspense...
<Unit193> ochosi: I'm looking into the black screen bug, shush.
<Unit193> :D
 * ochosi keeps quiet
 * Unit193 vomits.
<Unit193> I just turned it into a bright green screen bug.
<ochosi> hihi
<ochosi> well done!
<brainwash> do you actually debug it?
<brainwash> xfsettingsd seems to get stuck or crash
<brainwash> so it does not load xfdesktop
<ochosi> i don't think xfdesktop gets loaded by settingsd, but rather session
<ochosi> but that should be possible to unriddle
<brainwash> it just feels like someone else (ubuntu guys) should solve the puzzle
<ochosi> wow, upower0.99 is definitely slower at recognising when i plug in my ac adapter..
<brainwash> or just use a simple method to draw a background
<ochosi> not sure, there could always be a regression in xfdesktop
<ochosi> anyway. night all!
<brainwash> good night
<Unit193> https://sigma.unit193.net/dm xfsettingsd normally has some more errors too, but there you go.
<Unit193> Well it's all functioning, but does it matter how I got it? :P
<Unit193> Right, so I suppose I should link to what I have, even if not pretty: Found this: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/revision/4258 and ended up "fixing" the problem with http://paste.openstack.org/show/cOc2Q8RI2KhuWhZoWNgd/  --sm-client-disable isn't technically needed, but it's nice.  Last bit of course does the panel, but we should find out why it's disabled first.
<Unit193> ochosi: One thing to note, if we hear back from the desktop team as to why the panel was disabled, and decide to go ahead with it we'll change it for UbuntuStudio and presumably Mythbuntu too.
<ochosi> Unit193: nice work, the diff seems to make sense
<ochosi> i've pinged away in #u-desktop about it
<ochosi> we'll see what comes of it
<elfy> morning ochosi 
<ochosi> morning elfy 
<ochosi> good to hear the meeting time works for you :)
<elfy> heh
<elfy> not that there's much for me to say 
<ochosi> @irc_savvy_folks (knome?): can we somehow quantitatively evaluate with which clients users connect to #xubuntu? i was just wondering whether we can create an empirical basis for deciding whether to keep xchat out of our seed or not
<meetingology> ochosi: Error: "irc_savvy_folks" is not a valid command.
<ochosi> hrrm, something in vivid broke my bluetooth keyboard :'(
<ochosi> "k" is now interpreted as "2" and "l" as "1"
<ochosi> makes it hard to type with it
<elfy> you'll know how really annoyed I got with that ibus issue in trusty now then :p
<ochosi> muahahaha
<ochosi> found the "fix" in a forum-thread from 2011: "turn your numlock switch off on laptop's keyboard" :D
<ochosi> so for some reason, having numlock enabled makes the keyboard think it is a numpad
<ochosi> elfy: i guess in your call for testing for the panel you really need to explain what intelligent hiding is. seems i have to explain this to people time and time again to be sure...
<ochosi> Unit193: nice work, just tested
<ochosi> the a11y options from the panel indicator don't work, so we might be missing some things there in the seed, but other than that it's premium stuff
<ochosi> just so that everyone knows what we're talking about: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-10-095440.php
<ochosi> Unit193: my suggestion is that you file a merge-request against ubiquity with the changes that fix xfdesktop first, then we send an email to the studio and myth guys about the panel
<ochosi> the ubiquity panel is still a bit ugly though, i'll have to see whether/how it can be themed...
<ochosi> yuck, it's using a pixmap as background
<ochosi> Unit193: erhhm, i guess we need to either paint the bg in ubiquity with something like feh or consider restricting xfdesktop somehow. at least if we think that creating additional workspaces or this is problematic: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-10-103126.php
<ochosi> you can't launch much, mostly xfce4-settings stuff
<ochosi> you could also consider it an easter egg i guess
<ochosi> or a way to test the theming of ubiquity
<knome> ochosi, that would require doing CTCP queries for each person who joins the channel
<ochosi> knome: hm, i thought that at least pidgin appended some "purple" somewhere in the user string and that webirc users were easy to detect based on username, so i guess i assumed the same would be true for xchat somehow
<knome> it can set the username, but you can most definitely override that
<knome> or it can even set the realname as purple...
<knome> and tbh, you can fake even the CTCP version reply...
<knome> or simply hide it
<ochosi> yeah sure
<knome> but that it has to be
<knome> 11:54 CTCP VERSION reply from ochosi: irssi v0.8.15 - running on Linux x86_64
<ochosi> i guess we could ask freenode-staffers as they keep internal statistics
<brainwash> or create a poll. interacting with the community is a good thing
<brainwash> Unit193: finally some good news :)
<knome> poll represents a userbase that is willing to fill in a form, ctcp queries represent anybody who is not hiding/spoofing their ctcp version, which is likely a bette representation
<brainwash> yeah, but will freenode share this data?
<brainwash> not every xubuntu user joins our channels
<knome> of course not.
<ochosi> brainwash: just for the fun of the info, changing the window manager theme in ubiquity back and forth seems to remove the maximize button ;)
<knome> i don't know if freenode will share the data (or if they even have channel-specific data), but technically it wouldn't be a problem to catch the data ourself, if it was socially ok to do that
<brainwash> ochosi: that's strange :D
<brainwash> ochosi: the menu button "v" can be only removed via a custom xfwm config (menu button layout), or?
<ochosi> yes
<ochosi> we could also create a special wm-theme just for ubiquity
<ochosi> ;)
<brainwash> with a custom button layout we could hide the menu button + strange max button
<ochosi> ok, so freenode no longer collects this sort of data and they have scrapped all the older/existing stats
<ochosi> too many problems with making sense of it
<ochosi> (e.g. clients that re-connect a lot skewing the distribution)
<bluesabre> hey guys, whats up?
<Unit193> ochosi: No idea how it did it before, so I may be going the entirely wrong direction.
<Unit193> Hah, and I was either about to mp or poke about that artwork thing you just pushed. :P
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, one of the few commits to -artwork each cycle ;)
<ochosi> i guess there is little harm in loading xfdesktop, but yeah, i think it just used to be a gsettings-key and then ubiquity took care of painting the background itself
<Unit193> bluesabre: Read any backlog on the black stuff?
<ochosi> maybe that would still work if it wasn't for that line to paint it black
<Unit193> ochosi: Nope.
<ochosi> Unit193: could you try to just remove the black line ^?
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> you tried that then :)
<Unit193> About the first one, also made sure it did something: < Unit193> I just turned it into a bright green screen bug.
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> weird, why bright green though...
<Unit193> Not really, not if you s/black/green/
<ochosi> i guess we could also use xsetroot to set the background to a pixmap
<ochosi> which would be our wallpaper
<Unit193> Not as-is.
<ochosi> but might have to poke xnox about that
<Unit193> ochosi: UbuntuStudio is a-ok with the panel, fwiw.
<ochosi> ah nice
<ochosi> ok, so only mythbuntu to contact then
<Unit193> And xsetroot won't do it, not a bitmap.
<ochosi> do you know anyone there?
<ochosi> ehm, that suggests otherwise: http://lesstif.sourceforge.net/doc/super-ux/g1ae01e/chap1-7e.html
<ochosi> (-bitmap flag)
<Unit193> Tried that.
<ochosi> xpm too?
<Unit193> png is the only one I tried.
<ochosi> something like  ['xsetroot', '-xpm', '/lib/plymouth/themes/xubuntu-logo/wallpaper.png'],
<Unit193> xsetroot: bad bitmap format file: /usr/share/xfce4/backdrops/xubuntu-wallpaper.png
<ochosi> or -pixmap
<Unit193> I didn't try any others with that, went on to figure out what was going on.
<ochosi> if we installed xloadimage we could use "xsetbg /path/to/file.jpg"
<Unit193> Or we could just use feh, since the support is already there. :P
<ochosi> i don't have serious reservations against using xfdesktop, it just seems a li'l overkill
<ochosi> right, feh
<ochosi> that would only have to be installed, right?
<Unit193> So basically, if we don't like xfdesktop, then we could just add that to the live seed.
<Unit193> What does bluesabre think? :D
<ochosi> yeah, what does he think indeed
<ochosi> i guess if we show the panel btw, i guess i'll submit a MR against ubiquity to add our own panel background. the one provided suuuucks
<ochosi> (I'd actually prefer to just have a plain css background, but well)
<Unit193> That's a lot of guessing.  And re: know anyone in US, zeque was the one I poked, he's the you of US.
<ochosi> but know anyone in mythbuntu was my question :)
<ochosi> from their website it doesn't seem obvious who is who
<bluesabre> haven't caught up yet
<bluesabre> can I get a quick summary of where we are?
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> Unit193 fixed our black screen installer problem
<bluesabre> nice
<ochosi> and he added in a panel for the ubiquity session
<ochosi> that shows indicators
<ochosi> a11y, network, sound
<ochosi> using xfdesktop is generally cool, but overpowered: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-10-095440.php
<ochosi> we could also try to disable all clicks on the desktop with xfconf switches though
<ochosi> or install feh
<ochosi> and this ^ is where you come in :)
<Unit193> Well, I did something that would technically work yes.
<bluesabre> gotcha
<Unit193> Since he's the lead dev, he'll want to see http://paste.openstack.org/show/5tdMtrpbA1MNLZCPtzqQ
<bluesabre> well, I'm generally in favor of having the installer use less memory
<bluesabre> with feh
<bluesabre> and that may balance with including the panel
<ochosi> well the panel is sorta independent
<ochosi> i would go for including that either way
<bluesabre> agreed
<ochosi> it's baked into ubiquity and just displays some indicators
<ochosi> (although i don't get why date/time can't be there..)
<bluesabre> I see now
<bluesabre> so that fixes the issue with the defunct xfsettingsd ?
<Unit193> Yes, but it was restricted from being shown for some reason...
<Unit193> bluesabre: Not quite, no.
<bluesabre> ah
<ochosi> Unit193: those reasons might be historical though, like no support for indicators in xubuntu
<Unit193> You just end up with two. :P
<bluesabre> lol
<Unit193> At least one works...
<bluesabre> I'd be in favor of swapping with feh for rendering the desktop at install time... it worked for me at least twice
<Unit193> I never said I was the best to figure it out, just started wondering about it. :P
<bluesabre> that's the only way we'll ever figure it out, so keep up the good work :)
<ochosi> +1
<ochosi> ok, let's try feh next then
<ochosi> actually the whole ubiquity session is sorta for nothing anyway...
<ochosi> we could just always start xubuntu's live mode and open ubiquity via autostart
<ochosi> then you have maximum flexibility/a11y
<ochosi> </just_sayin>
<knome> heh
<knome> a weird xml namespace that has that tag.
<ochosi> the only benefit i see is the reduced mem usage i guess
<knome> ...which might be good in some cases
<bluesabre> cool, let me know if you need anything from me... need to head to work now
<ochosi> knome: yeah, i think many browsers don't display that tag ;)
<ochosi> actually i don't know how much less the ubiquity session uses
<ochosi> especially with the indicators loaded
<ochosi> Unit193: ^ any clue?
<Unit193> bluesabre: So there is actually a change that needs done in ubiquity itself or not?
<knome> well xhtml is just a specific xml namespace... you can technically create a namespae that allows that tag ;)
<Unit193> ochosi: No idea about that xml namespace, nope.
<ochosi> gah :)
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes, I have the details in that bug report (wherever it is)
<knome> the (visual) interpretation is up to the application that parses the namespace ;)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Wasn't sure if the line numbers changed, but cool.
<ochosi> Unit193: mem usage comparison!! (stop messing with me, i'm hungry for lunch!!)
<knome> haha. :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: will we see you @meeting tomorrow?
<bluesabre> Unit193: if yes, not by much... ubiquity doesn't change often
<Unit193> marco support.
<bluesabre> ochosi: no can do, will be starting my commute then
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh crap. alrighty then. we'll talk another time
<bluesabre> will try to update the agenda when I get home tonight
<bluesabre> and tackle a few tasks
<Unit193> bluesabre: OK, thanks.  Bye.
<bluesabre> Seeya guys
<ochosi> hf!
<ochosi> knome: what do you think of replacing the "current" wallpaper in vivid with a generic "devel/inprogress" wallpaper each cycle?
<ochosi> so at the beginning of cycle, bump plymouth-text and swap wallpapers to devel so it's visually clear that it's not utopic anymore
<ochosi> (could be the same devel wallpaper each cycle)
<knome> works for me
<knome> as far as i'm concerned, it could even be a solid color until we land the wallpaper
<knome> but i don't mind it being something else either, can design one
<knome> i mean "design"... lay out something that looks better than a solid color :)
<Unit193> ^
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<knome> you can add a work item for me
<knome> got to run soon
<ochosi> okeydokey
<ochosi> done
<knome> noticed, ta
<knome> shower, brb
<Unit193> And I do know a bot that CTCPs version checks people, and does even remember people for a while so it doesn't hit the same people that often.
<ochosi> right, we'd need pre-14.10 and post 14.10 stats i guess
<Unit193> Right, give me a time machine and I'll get right on that.
 * ochosi hands over a time machine to Unit193 
<Unit193> And that'd be the last time you saw me. :P
<AgAu> go back and punch bill gates in the dick
<Unit193> AgAu: That's entirely uncalled for.
<slickymasterWork> ochosi, there's a discrepancy between your mail to the ML and the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings, regarding the hour of the meeting 
<slickymasterWork> is it to be at 18:00 or 22:00 ?
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: thanks, i'll update it (the link is correct though ;))
<ochosi> if the wiki weren't so slow, it'd be done already...
<ochosi> cause i hit "save" like a minute ago or so
<slickymasterWork> lol, want me to update the team calendar, or will you do it?
<ochosi> calendar should be fine i think
<slickymasterWork> no it's not :P
<slickymasterWork> it's 10 PM = 22.00 UTC
<ochosi> yeah, that's correct
<ochosi> 22utc is the correct time
<knome> ok, i'm going now
<knome> see you later
<ochosi> seeya knome 
<Unit193> 17:00:00 EST
<slickymasterWork> oh, I thought you were saying that 18:00 was the correct hour
<knome> (hello and goodbye slickymasterWork :))
<ochosi> bbabl
<slickymasterWork> have fun knome 
<slickymasterWork> you also ochosi 
<brainwash> ochosi: mark bug 1401075 as dupe of bug 1347272 ?
<ubottu> bug 1401075 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager icon not shown, settings don't open" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1401075
<ubottu> bug 1347272 in xfce4-volumed (Ubuntu) "Several XFCE applications appear unresponsive after communicating with a daemon" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347272
<brainwash> according to the latest comments in the second report, people want fixes for trusty
<Unit193> Because it's an "LTS"
<brainwash> we should care more about trusty, but it's not possible I guess
<brainwash> sru'ing or backporting various fixes
<elfy> ochosi: not quite what I was getting at - do we assume people can take responsibility for upgrading panel only from the staging ppa? if they install it and update/grade they'll get new mousepad etc too :)
<ochosi> elfy: providing the right instructions, they won't get a mousepad upgrade. and yeah, providing simple revert-instructions will be necessary too
<Unit193> So, add PPA, sudo apt-get install xfce4-panel, test, ppa-purge.
<elfy> I guess that'll do 
<Unit193> I'm running it now, but I don't use hiding, so it's a bit pointless.
<elfy> but doing it that way people won't be testing constantly - so we'd be unlikely to see any odd bugs that might show up
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, you can mention that it'd be good to just use it for a few days
<ochosi> technically, there shouldn't be any new bugs in that panel version
<ochosi> Unit193: could you package the xfpm 1.4.2 release for trusty so we can copy it to the 4.12 PPA?
<ochosi> i'd just copy over the one from -staging, but since it's a snapshot
<Unit193> ochosi: Going to update the rest for trusty/utopic too?
<ochosi> the rest?
<ochosi> referring to xfwm4 and all the other updates?
<ochosi> generally it'd be nice to get all those into the 4.12 PPA
<ochosi> but my focus for now was to provide xfpm1.4, because it's a rather big jump there
<Unit193> OK
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/xP1npdsAEFyRtTWxhxJJ/ Generally.
<ochosi> wait, xfdesktop hasn't been backported yet?
<ochosi> i was pretty sure a newer version of it was in trusty already
<ochosi> so if you can/want, i'd update: xfwm4, xfdesktop, xfce4-settings, xfce4-session, parole, libxfce4ui, xfpm
<ochosi> Unit193, bluesabre: just got the OK from superm1 (mythbuntu) on adding the panel to ubiquity-dm with xfwm4
<Unit193> !info xfdesktop4 trusty
<ubottu> xfdesktop4 (source: xfdesktop4): xfce desktop background, icons and root menu manager. In component universe, is optional. Version 4.11.6-1ubuntu1 (trusty), package size 131 kB, installed size 525 kB
<ochosi> right, so .6
<ochosi> i guess .8 won't hurt
<brainwash> !info xfdesktop4 trusty-proposed
<ubottu> xfdesktop4 (source: xfdesktop4): xfce desktop background, icons and root menu manager. In component universe, is optional. Version 4.11.8-0ubuntu0.1 (trusty-proposed), package size 134 kB, installed size 545 kB
<brainwash> stuck in -proposed, because someone tested it, noticed that there is some regression/breakage and marked it as "verification failed"
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfdesktop4/+bug/1365965/comments/4
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1365965 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu Trusty) "[MRE] Please update xfdesktop4 to 4.11.8 in Trusty" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<brainwash> will it be stuck forever? no one seems to provide additional feedback
<elfy> anyone using vivid and locking screen - does it work? 
<slickymasterWork> I can test it elfy, if you'll give a few seconds to end the install of our staging ppa
<slickymasterWork> ok, I've set it to 10 seconds
<elfy> slickymasterWork: no - just lock the screen from whisker please
<slickymasterWork> ah, ok
<slickymasterWork> yeaps, it's working
<elfy> must be local then - thanks slickymasterWork :)
<slickymasterWork> np elfy 
<elfy> ochosi: you can g+ that now https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2014-December/010498.html
<elfy> pleia2: could you socialise it more please :D
<slickymasterWork> so far the Intelligently option is working quite well
<elfy> knew I should have read the thing again before sending it 
 * drc looks around and finds Max cowering in the corner.
<slickymasterWork> elfy, so far the Intelligently option is working quite well
<elfy> ochosi: ok - so is this a bug with intelligent hiding, have window maximised - rollup the window - panel stays hidden 
<slickymasterWork> I can confirm that 
<elfy> thanks slickymasterWork 
<sidi> ochosi, i'll twitter that if that's ok with you
<elfy> hi sidi 
<sidi> or if you have a Xfce version
<sidi> hi elfy 
<drc> pleia2: As requested (a long time ago in 'net-time :)  http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-utopic.html
<ochosi> elfy: as long as the window is overlapping the panel it's fine
<elfy> ochosi: no it's not - I have panel at bottom, window was alt+6'd - vert max, panel hides, rollup title bar - panel remains hidden
<ochosi> interesting
<ochosi> let me try that then
<ochosi> so maximize a window, then roll it up?
<sidi> elfy, ochosi i think basically there are cases where you forget to update, i dont know what the code architecture looks like but it's probably good to watch too many events than not enough
<elfy> ochosi: yea - but obviously you need panle at the bottom 
<etwarrior> Hey, concerning my place in Xubuntu development team... I love you guys, but I found that Xubuntu doesn't suit my day to day productivity needs... There are some issues (though pretty minor) that have just added up, and escalated... Xubuntu unfortunately is not the most stable of Linuxes, so I am thinking of switching to a more stable, rolling release... I still will help you to improve Xubuntu though, and translate if you g
<etwarrior> uys want to.
<sidi> or is it because the geometry you get from a rolled up window is incorrect?
<ochosi> sidi: my guess would be that wnck size isn't updated when rolling up
<ochosi> but anyway, let me first reproduce it
<slickymasterWork> of course we want to etwarrior 
<slickymasterWork> ochosi, elfy, I'm facing that issue with the panel at the top
<etwarrior> Xubuntu is good, and I thought about just switching to plain Ubuntu even, but that distro is just too mainstream... I believe in helping "smaller branches."
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: well with panel on top it's obvious, cause the window will be in the way of the panel
<elfy> slickymasterWork: not sure how that would work tbh - rolling it up - and the title bar would still be at the top where the panel is
<ochosi> elfy: i can reproduce
<sidi> drc, that owl wallpaper is very very cool.
<elfy> ochosi: ok - I'll report it then :)
<slickymasterWork> of course, don't mind silly slickymasterWork guys :P
<slickymasterWork> duh
<elfy> slickymasterWork: :)
<ochosi> np slickymasterWork 
<etwarrior> My other problem guys, is the fact that I am such a newbie to Linux... it's a bit stressful to me to always have to research how to fix something in Linux, whereas I am more familiar with Mac OS for instance... but I wanted to switch to Linux for a couple reasons... my Mac had a tendency to freeze if too many system resources were used up, and the software was pricey. Linux is open-source for the most part... and it has a go
<etwarrior> od ability to compress RAM usage, and system resources.
<etwarrior> I guess I'll take this in off-topic, since this is strictly development talk, sorry.
<ochosi> etwarrior: np, and thanks! :)
<ochosi> elfy: we have that disabled in xubuntu by default though, right?
<elfy> yea - but I undisable it as I use it a lot :)
<ochosi> ok cool
<ochosi> that's exactly the kind of testing i wanted
<ochosi> even though i hate that there is yet another bug
<elfy> woohoo :)
<elfy> yea - that sucks - but better to find them early than late I guess :)
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> so thanks
<elfy> welcome ofc :)
<elfy> xfce 11371 
<ubottu> xfce bug 11371 in Panel "Intelligent Hiding: Panel stays hidden with rolled up window" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11371
<ochosi> ok cool
<elfy> ok - also replied to the dev thread so others know how we'd like it done 
<ochosi> yeah, crap, i think i see the problem
<ochosi> guess i have to figure that out with ofourdan
<pleia2> elfy: shared
<elfy> pleia2: thanks :)
<elfy> ochosi: well at least you can see it - all I'd be able to see is the result of what you see :D
<elfy> ochosi: quick question - do you see the 'dekstop freeze' issue when deleting things from desktop in vivid?
 * pleia2 adds link from drc to http://xubuntu.org/press/
<pleia2> knome: thoughts on this one? http://mylinuxexplore.blogspot.com/2014/11/xubuntu-1410-utopic-unicorn-review.html
<knome> pleia2, well at least it looks somewhat comprehensive, so why not
<pleia2> k
<brainwash> bluesabre: the logind-handle-lid-switch property is set to "false" via xubuntu-default-settings. the logic behind it was inverted in xfpm 1.4 I think. so, is it still OK to set this value via default-settings in utopic/vivid?
<brainwash> could be the reason, why people are seeing the blackscreen issue in 14.10 again
<bluesabre> evening folks
<ochosi> ahoy bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<bluesabre> you're still around! :O
<ochosi> yeah, why not ;)
<bluesabre> brainwash: was thinking we flipped it... will check into that.
<ochosi> i mean even ofourdan is active again, it seems the world is coming to an end soon
<ochosi> so why sleep?
<bluesabre> :)
<etwarrior> I'm sorry to say that I don't think I am going to partake in helping with the development of Xubuntu... I was shown an article that is quite disturbing regarding Ubuntu and Canonical...
<etwarrior> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.html
<ObrienDave> oh geez, is that FUD still circulating?
<etwarrior> It is such a nice community here, and it's a shame that Canonical is doing that...
<Unit193> ObrienDave: Of course it is.
<ObrienDave> let's see, it's on the internet, therefore it must be true ROFL
<etwarrior> This isn't the first time I've heard about Canonical in the present state of Ubuntu...
<Unit193> Canonical is the sponsor of Ubuntu..
<etwarrior> Then I was shown this article by another fellow, and unfortunately it distrubs me.
<ochosi> bluesabre: any chance we can make some apps remain plugged into settings-manager? (mugshot, light-locker-settings, menulibre)
<ochosi> instead of popping out that is
<etwarrior> Unit193, Canonical are the people who make Ubuntu, are they not?
<ObrienDave> so, no one else tracks usage, cookies don't exist, anything else i missed? ROFL
<ochosi> humm, mind to take this to #ubuntu-fud guys?
<ochosi> this is the devel channel...
<bluesabre> ochosi: not sure... all three of those are gtk3
<etwarrior> Yeah, but I was just saying because I was interesting in helping the community... I may not be part of the team now..
<ochosi> right, could be that that's a problem...
<ochosi> etwarrior: how is re-posting an article that is disregarding of the community helping the furthering or development of xubuntu?
<bluesabre> etwarrior: there are no plans in the near future to remove the "ubuntu" portion of "Xubuntu" :)
<etwarrior> Because I was just letting you know that I think I may "step down."
<ochosi> yeah, but you already let us know earlier today for different reasons. but thanks. case closed.
<bluesabre> ok, but if you wish to continue contributing to xfce, feel free to join development efforts in arch/fedora/suse :)
<bluesabre> ...etc
<bluesabre>  :D
<ochosi> yup, what he said ^ :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: sorry about forgetting that those settings dialogs have to pop out
<bluesabre> ochosi: np, there probably is something that can be done for them, if you want to file feature request bugs to eventually investigate
<ochosi> yeah, nvm
<ochosi> there are still many other dialogs popping out
<bluesabre> maybe we can make the settings manager smarter to absorb those in some way
<Unit193> bluesabre: You were supposed to do all sorts of stuff!  You should be doing them now, go go go, move it!
<ochosi> hihi
<bluesabre> Unit193: which things first?
 * ochosi likes Unit193's attitude
<ochosi> take out the elephant whip, Unit193, go go go! :D
<ochosi> Unit193: how're the 4.12 PPA packages coming along?
<Unit193> ochosi: Well, I've likely already done several of them in my own for utopic.
<ochosi> oh cool
<bluesabre> Unit193: so panel in ubiquity = yes, what about feh for desktop?
<ochosi> let me copy those over then
<ochosi> Unit193: wait, where?
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, actually we contacted both mythbuntu (me) and -studio (unit) and they are fine with activating the panel
<Unit193> bluesabre: Right, still want to confirm with the desktop people as to why it was disabled.  And for the other, would want to make sure what trusty or saucy did.  Besides, aren't you lead dev and actually someone that knows python? ;)
<ochosi> actually superm1 said that it was deactivated because it used to crash straight away
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes, I think the difference between trusty and utopic is a regression in xfsettingsd
<Unit193> bluesabre: Doing the feh workaround will be interesting, I'd presume the other Xfce flavors want it too.
<bluesabre> same code everywhere else
<Unit193> bluesabre: Right, but was that launching something else?  Why would it paint that directly?
<bluesabre> the only difference is that xfsettingsd enters the <defunct> state in utopic
<bluesabre> so its sitting there, dead, not painting (xsetroot paints the background black)
<bluesabre> or xset-something (from what I remember)
<ochosi> btw, superm1 (mythbuntu dev) was the one who added in the patch for xsetroot to set a black bg
<Unit193> Right, but there's a second xfsettingsd process that at least is "painting" on ubiquity.
<Unit193> ochosi: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/revision/4258
<ochosi> yup, that one
<bluesabre> with the new fix you found today/yesterday?
<ochosi> Unit193: have you found the commit that disabled the panel?
<Unit193> ochosi: Didn't look.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Which fix again?
<bluesabre> where you ended up with two xfsettingsd's
#xubuntu-devel 2014-12-11
<bluesabre> dinner time, back in a bit
<Unit193> Default didn't do this?
<Unit193> Oh, well yeah xfsettingsd never paints it for me.
<bluesabre> I think it used to be just one, functional one
<bluesabre> now its just one dead one
<ochosi> wait, xfsettingsd sets the root pixmap?
<bluesabre> bbiab
<Unit193> ochosi: I don't see why it would.  But it isn't now.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Ah, so I did fix that, now it's one dead, one functional.
<Unit193> Well, "fix".
 * Unit193 wonders if he's off the hook now.
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> so I'd be generally in favor or swapping it out instead of trying to figure out why it dies, unless you have any ideas?
<ochosi> ehm, what sets the theme then if we "swap out" xfsettingsd?
<ochosi> not sure why it's defunct and all, but it's clearly doing its job if we see greybird and not the gtk3 default theme in ubiquity, no?
<ochosi> and i'm still not convinced that xfsettingsd has anything to do with setting the wallpaper
<Unit193> ^
<ochosi> iirc ubiquity used to cairo-paint it built-in
<bluesabre> I think those may be controlled by ubiquity
<ochosi> (but i might be misremembering that part)
<ochosi> hm right
<ochosi> i guess we have us some ubiquity code to read then :)
 * Unit193 calls not it.
 * bluesabre already did
<ochosi> actually
<bluesabre> ubiquity doesn't paint the desktop for us
<ochosi> if it would set the theme, wouldn't i grep "Greybird" in it?
<bluesabre> its in xubuntu-live-settings iirc
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> k
<bluesabre> sets some gsettings variables, and ubiquity grabs those
<ochosi> guess i should shut up until i've read the code too :)
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> yeah, i thought that adding the gsettings var for the bg was enough and ubiquity would paint it
<ochosi> that was probably a fake memory though
<bluesabre> start here https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/view/head:/bin/ubiquity-dm#L366
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/LInGit7mfbk7EE8L831y/ is what I use. :P
<Unit193> Yeah, you can check for background_image, I've already looked through this. :P
 * ochosi is busy looking for why and when the panel was disabled for xfwm4
<bluesabre> my previous fix, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1375893/comments/4 now lines 404-407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1375893 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "Black background to Try/Install Dialogue" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ochosi> let's get that pushed then i guess, unless you wanna figure out why xfsettingsd is defunct
<ochosi> btw, that bug should really be re-assigned to !xfdesktop (although i'm not sure what to)
<Unit193> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/revision/5770
<Unit193> bzr blame wont tell me the real one. :P
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/FMJNzU5OLBcPzj9F3BZx see?
<bluesabre> darn it blame
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i know that already
<ochosi> i'm still browsing the bzr history
<Unit193> I wouldn't. :D
<ochosi> no need for >1 of us to waste his time on this
<Unit193> ochosi: 4185
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> so it was superm1 who disabled it
<Unit193> ochosi: I'm faster? :D
<ochosi> you are, but i hate bzr *more*
<Unit193> ochosi: Are you sure?  I've converted a whole repo just to add a couple commits.
<ochosi> so since superm1 said today that he was fine with re-enabling the panel as long as it works, we can go for it now
<Unit193> Yep.
<ochosi> as soon as that is re-enabled, i can add a custom background for us for the panel
<ochosi> the default one stinks
<ochosi> brb, running out of battery...
<Unit193> Talk to xnox?
<bluesabre> k
<Unit193> And sure, I can request the merge when I get back home, no problem.
<bluesabre> Unit193, cool
<Unit193> bluesabre: Anything else I'm not remembering?
<bluesabre> dunno... I think I might create a dev trello since I keep forgetting mini-tasks
 * bluesabre reviews blueprints
<bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] Evaluate the 14.10 decisions relative to default IRC client and decide action(s) for 15.04 release: TODO
<bluesabre> I'm rather content to say we are fine without
<bluesabre> but haven't heard much else
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i'd tend to agree
<ochosi> i mean we can always do a survey, but the question always remains how representative that'll be
<ochosi> i'd say as long as googling "xubuntu xchat" doesn't turn up lots of heated comments, we're probably fine
<bluesabre> I can toss it onto the agenda for tomorrow if you want to cover it
<ochosi> i briefly investigated whether there is quantitative data of the ppl who connect to #xubuntu in terms of which client they use, but freenode doesn't collect that data anymore and didn't hold on to data collected on that previously
<ochosi> yeah, we can formally cover it tomorrow
<ochosi> if you add a dev-trello, please link it to the blueprint
<ochosi> i actually wanted to go through the blueprints with you and everyone else at some point
<ochosi> since you won't be at the meeting, we can quickly browse through devel now if you want
<drc> If it was me, I wouldn't bother with a script or a poll, if no one comes here (irc) or the ML to complain I would keep the status quo :)
<ochosi> drc: well, i'd have used the data if it had been readily available. i'm also not really convinced of polls
<ochosi> not only because of being representative, but also in terms of the expectations it creates in participants
<bluesabre> yup
<drc> That's what I was getting at...more work than knowledge.
<ochosi> did you get anywhere with panel-switch btw?
<bluesabre> ochosi, Unit193, let's discuss now if you're around for a bit :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: not yet
<ochosi> we can also postpone that if it turns out we have enough work for 15.04
<ochosi> not sure how much work it'd be
<bluesabre> its just a matter of finding time lately
<bluesabre> there's little enough to do
<ochosi> haha, as always ;)
<ochosi> that's the same for everyone
<brainwash> bluesabre: I'm not sure, but logind-handle-lid-switch was set to "false" in trusty-updates and it's still set to "false" in utopic/vivid with the new xfpm 1.4 release
<bluesabre> right, but I think the logic was flipped and wrong... its a confusing mess
<ochosi> bluesabre: did "investigate reduction of gnome depends" have any concrete roadmap?
<brainwash> wrong + wrong = right?
<brainwash> :D
<ochosi> yeah, sadly +1 on that 
<bluesabre> wrong + wrong = NaN
<bluesabre> is basically where we're at there ;)
<bluesabre> ochosi: it was more or less, if we have any ideas there, we go for it
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> so i'll flip that to "inprogress" then
<ochosi> since it's sorta ongoing always
<ochosi> same with "shared components"?
<ochosi> or did you have something specific in mind
<bluesabre> there were some suggestions for not-so-good alternatives
<ochosi> as in?
<bluesabre> they were just posted here, replacing games and the calc
<ochosi> oh right
<bluesabre> the safest thing would probably be transitioning to more mate components to reduce the headache of gnome upgrades
<ochosi> probably
<ochosi> although calc is actually still fine
<bluesabre> yes
<ochosi> just looked at it in vivid
<bluesabre> the calc is generally A-OK
<ochosi> but yeah, we'll have to wait until gtk3.14 hits us to be really sure...
<bluesabre> whenever that finally lands... I feel like its taking longer than it really is :)
<ochosi> there were discussions about calc maybe because of the CSDs
<ochosi> but xfwm4 just received patches by ofourdan(!) to support that better
<bluesabre> I don't mind the CSDs, they work well enough in xfce, and look better than hacking a toolbar back in
<ochosi> yeah, absolutely
<ochosi> while not being 100% consistent, it could be worse
<ochosi> what about the lgg-settings to debian thingy being blocked?
<bluesabre> its gotten better, I think gnome devs finally decided what they wanted to do with them, and the results are improved
<bluesabre> lgg-settings being blocked is a matter of updating, then potentially uploading to debian (in-freeze), or just to ubuntu
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> actually there are so many pending merges by andrew, i've completely lost track of the greeter lately...
<bluesabre> we should aid to review the lightdm-gtk-greeter merges, merge them in, do a dev release, and pushing that on to get tested
<bluesabre> aid?
<bluesabre> plan...
<bluesabre> words failing
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> i guess i was also too involved with other things to be able to focus on the greeter at all
<ochosi> now i feel i don't know the codebase well enough anymore, because so much has changed
<bluesabre> yeah
<brainwash> is andrew still actively developing?
<ochosi> yeah
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> andrew kicks butt and keeps adding things... he toned it down a bit since we asked for stability
<brainwash> so he'll fix bug 1398619 some day
<ubottu> bug 1398619 in lightdm-gtk-greeter (Ubuntu) "No indicators displayed when systemd-sysv is installed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1398619
<bluesabre> I can fix that soon
<brainwash> please do! :)
<bluesabre> maybe one day this weekend, and include it in the next release
<ochosi> sometimes i wish he would also work on other things, i guess i'm sorta done with what i wanted to achieve with the greeter...
<knome> ochosi, maybe you can ask him to do so? :)
<ochosi> knome: yeah, maybe maybe, there are so many things one could do with enough time. frankly i feel i'm juggling enough as it is ;)
<knome> asking doesn't cost a lot of your time :)
<ochosi> well no, but if i ask him, that will likely not be the end of it
<ochosi> it is usually the beginning of a conversation
<ochosi> either he has that idea himself, or he might need coaching/motivation
<knome> :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: anything else of interest?
<ochosi> what's the bluez5 workitem about?
<bluesabre> new bluez coming soon (maybe with gtk 3.14?)
<ochosi> (sorry, distracted chatting to superm1 about mythbuntu and ubiquity...)
<bluesabre> or with systemd
<bluesabre> or something
<ochosi> oh, is it?
<bluesabre> something, somewhere
<ochosi> these things are taking their time to land (again)
<bluesabre> Noskcaj knows more in that area
<bluesabre> its because debian is in freeze
<ochosi> is there any experimental PPA we could use to test bluez5?
<ochosi> just to prep ourselves a bit
<bluesabre> Noskcaj or tim? has one somewhere
<ochosi> that workitem is a bit fuzzy, that was mainly why i asked
<ochosi> and actually testing from a PPA would've been what i'd have expected
<ochosi> if a PPA is there already, all we need is a call for testing after some exploratory testing we do ourselves
<bluesabre> it might have other dependencies, I just don't know enough there
<ochosi> k, we can also assign it to Noskcaj btw
<bluesabre> good idea
<bluesabre> lets do that
<ochosi> if everything is just "xubuntu-dev" then everybody will think you have to do all that by yourself
<ochosi> and you will think everyone will help
<ochosi> and nothing will get done :)
<ochosi> so i'd encourage you to assign those things you wanna do personally to yourself
<knome> ++
<bluesabre> makes sense
<ochosi> then it'll be clearer for others (like me) where you want assistance
<ochosi> btw, slightly different topic, but still xub and devel related
<ochosi> i talked to cavalier about your gsettings branch in order to get it merged in finally
<bluesabre> right
<ochosi> he promised to look at it on the weekend
<bluesabre> looking forward to having something this weekend :)
<ochosi> guess we'll have to remind him :)
<ochosi> but yeah, everything worked with it
<ochosi> so to the worst i'll just merge it personally
<bluesabre> sounds good
<ochosi> then we can get that into 15.04 and consider what to do with the settings app
<ochosi> we could e.g. do a downstream patch for xfpm and add a new "locking" tab to it (or even "light-locker") and make it configurable there
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> since switching to gsettings means we'll get rid of much of the code lls currently holds
<bluesabre> sounds like a good idea
<ochosi> then probably just move the "lock on suspend" option over to that tab too in our downstream patch
<ochosi> and make it a "security" tab
<ochosi> shouldn't be too hard actually
<ochosi> but yeah, first we need ll 1.5.1
<bluesabre> yeah, let's get that, then we can have fun
<ochosi> okeydokey, i'll try to push that then
<ochosi> hm, i would imagine gtkplug would work with gtk2/3 btw
<ochosi> it says you can even use it with QT
<bluesabre> might break with later versions of gtk + mir/wayland
<bluesabre> and also, might not
<ochosi> seems it's still fine with gtk3 stable
<ochosi> but yeah, might or might not
<ochosi> it doesn't seem too hard though to make it pluggable
<bluesabre> cool, let's start adding things to our various roadmaps then
<ochosi> (apart from the examples i know being c and the apps in question being python)
<bluesabre> http://wiki.smdavis.us/doku.php?id=development
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> ok
<bluesabre> lls might be a good place to start with vala conversions
<bluesabre> since it is so tiny
<ochosi> vala conversions?
<bluesabre> if we want to start doing vala development at all... I've considered it for a few things
<ochosi> well only if we don't dissolve it into a tab in xfpm
<bluesabre> since its lighter than python
<ochosi> yeah, it used to be under heavy development when i looked at it last
<ochosi> but i guess it has consolidated meanwhile
<bluesabre> yeah, its doing better now, and has better gtk bindings that python-gobject (sadly)
<ochosi> ok, added those few thoughts to the dev roadmaps
<bluesabre> thanks
<bluesabre> I think I'll try reviewing some greeter merges tonight so I can say I was productive :)
<ochosi> cool
 * ochosi already pushed a patch to xfwm4, so he's safe
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> also found the source of the bug elfy reported against intelligent hiding
<ochosi> although the fix will likely be ugly
<ochosi> anyway, gotta hit the sack
<knome> ochosi, that'll hurt
 * knome hides
<bluesabre> oh yeah
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh, and that bluetooth-indicator thingy, python-libindicator or whatever it was... adding that to the seed would be cool
<bluesabre> ochosi, quick note about intelligent hiding
<bluesabre> when used with window plugin, its kind of annoying that it hides when clicking on a different window button
<ochosi> it only hides if the newly focused window overlaps
<bluesabre> I think it should stay elevated as long as the mouse is still there
<bluesabre> if thats possible
<ochosi> and it's only feeling annoying cause it's hiding too quickly imo
<bluesabre> only a minor annoyance though
<ochosi> it should slide away more slowly
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> sliding is more difficult with gtk2 :(
<ochosi> the whole logic is quite complex already, so i'm not sure about your suggestion
<bluesabre> yeah, np
<ochosi> might take a lot of time to figure that out without breaking something else
<Unit193> bluesabre: What are we going to talk about?  And dev trello doesn't sound too bad.  I'm not actually using blueprints at all as it is, so couldn't be worse than that.
<ochosi> the slow sliding should be there already
<bluesabre> maybe we can finish the gtk3 port eventually
<ochosi> just have to activate it
<ochosi> or: find a good way to activate it
<ochosi> :)
<Unit193> Also glanced over something that said gtk 3.14.  Seen it in Debian, it's kind of crap.
<bluesabre> more things broken probably
<ochosi> bluesabre: well, new features were added, so the gtk3 port is out of date. so better do 4.12 before really working on gtk3
<bluesabre> particularly for parole if not using clutter
<ochosi> meh, that sucks
<bluesabre> yeah, 4.12 is priority
<ochosi> clutter really eats more cpu
<ochosi> anyway, i'll doze off
<ochosi> nighty!
<bluesabre> less than X, more than VX
<bluesabre> *XV
<bluesabre> seeya
 * Unit193 petpets bluesabre.
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> this one seems desirable, https://code.launchpad.net/~kalgasnik/lightdm-gtk-greeter/allow-debugging-option/+merge/243139
<Unit193> That it does.  Did he do the config one? ;)
<Unit193> So, did you need me for something? (re: pinging.)
<bluesabre> nah
<bluesabre> go on and have fun
<Unit193> Was thinking of taking a walk, 25F/13/F out.
<Unit193> Just have to finish tea.  So yes, do ping/add me to the devel trello if you make one.  Thought about creating a wiki page with what I'm doing and what progress I have with it.
<bluesabre> sure, that sounds good
<bluesabre> wondering how I should lay out the dev trello... per project, per dev, priority bugs, etc
<knome> i would probably do that per project, most useful for tracking process
<knome> sleeps ->
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> later knome
<elfy> morning all
<ochosi> morning elfy 
<elfy> hi ochosi 
<ochosi> so i'm already one step further on the bug you reported yesterday
<elfy> yea, read that :)
<ochosi> don't have a fix yet, but it probably will be a tiny bit ugly (if it's even fixable)
<elfy> I was thinking about that - but then came up against panel at the top :p
<elfy> logically speaking (for my workflow at least) with panel at bottom and a window rolled up 
<ochosi> generally speaking, i'd have to find a way to know what size the window-decorations have
<elfy> I have decided that window is in the way and thus panel wouldn't be - so regardless of what window size is, when window rolled up - panel should show 
<elfy> and looking at it that way - you don't need to know window size - just rolled up state 
<elfy> but then I thought of panel at top - and rolled up the title bar is over the panel, if you then unhide the panel you can't see title bar to unroll it ;)
<elfy> though alt-tab to a window that's rolled up does maximise it again
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> that's the problem
<ochosi> i still have to check the size of rolled up windows cause they might still overlap
<ochosi> same with panels on the sides btw, not just on top
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> not sure why you need to know size - just the rolled up state - or is there not something which says "this_is_rolled_up"
<elfy> anyway - all beyond my pay grade :D
<ochosi> how would i check whether the panel and the rolled up window overlap without knowing the size?
<ochosi> i'm basically intersecting rectangles
<ochosi> man, corner-tiling is really really useful, i can see that already after using it for 5mins
<elfy> well if x is maximised - and panel is not floating about in the middle - aren't they always going to overlap - if they didn't then the panel wouldn't actually be hidden
<ochosi> yeah, but rolled-up != maximized
<elfy> no of course not
<ochosi> just think of a rolled-up window as a very small one, but if you ask it how big it is, it'll still tell you its rolled-down size
<elfy> yes I understand that :)
<elfy> but if window IS maximised AND rolled up then panel should show surely? 
<elfy> anyway - I think we're in danger of confusing each other here :p
<ochosi> if it's maximized and rolled up it can still overlap with the panel or not overlap with the panel
<ochosi> so yeah, currently they always overlap because we don't know the size of the rolled-up window, but instead only the size of the maximized window
<ochosi> (in case that's what you were hinting at)
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> sort of :)
<ochosi> mkay :)
<elfy> what I'm logically alluding to is that if you did have a max'd window which is now rolled up - irrespective of size - you've moved it out of the way and the panel should unhide
<elfy> because user isn't thinking about what the code thinks is the size - but what they actually see 
<ochosi> yeah, i agree
<ochosi> then again, the panel might still get in the way in some cases (as you pointed out yourself, especially with panel at the top)
<ochosi> so it's still worth to check
<elfy> yep 
<ochosi> but yeah, in 90% of all cases, the panel will go away anyway
<ochosi> currently i'm considering to delay to hide the panel
<elfy> not sure how that would resolve it 
<ochosi> no, that's a different point
<elfy> ok :)
<ochosi> i think sometimes it's a bit unpractical that it goes away immediately
<ochosi> showing immediately is good i think, but hiding could be slightly delayed
<ochosi> so that there's no "i wanted to click a button in the panel twice" and it hides meanwhile so the second click reaches "something else below"
<elfy> good point 
<elfy> but - you'd have to be quick moving the mouse after you clicked - as panel stays while mouse is over it 
<ochosi> not if you click a window button of a window that is maximized i think
<ochosi> then it might go away quite quickly atm
<elfy> I'll look at that a bit later - panel at bottom here :p
<elfy> just about to wander off to work 
<ochosi> sure, hf
<elfy> I'd love to - but it won't happen :p
<ochosi> :]
<ochosi> make the best of it then
<elfy> heh
<elfy> really should call this shaded instead of rolled up I suspect :D
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> would make things a tad clearer
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> Unit193: still awake?
<ochosi> Noskcaj: about bluez5, could you give me/us an update on what's coming and whether there is a PPA or something to test things in advance?
<ochosi> ah ok, i've found it already...
<brainwash> ochosi: "There no some icons in system tray" -> python-libindicator not installed?
<brainwash> you mentioned this package here some time ago
<brainwash> and dropbox is a python app (last time I checked)
<brainwash> oh, the reporter already solved the problem..
<bluesabre> ochosi: corner-tiling?
<bluesabre> how? :D
<bluesabre> will fix the python-libindicator item tonight
<ochosi> bluesabre: drag window to corner and get 25% window size
<ochosi> there's already a branch with it
<bluesabre> ah, thought you might have already punted it to trunk
<ochosi> nope, needs more testing
<ochosi> also, currently it also implements a maximize-on-move-to-top option that i'm not sure i wanna push
<ochosi> fwiw, bluez5 seems to work okay with my bluetooth keyboard
 * bluesabre prefers that over 50% at top
<ochosi> no improvements/downsides
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, but then tile-to-bottom also doesn't work anymore
<ochosi> and that can be useful
<ochosi> especially with corner tiling
<bluesabre> true
<bluesabre> so how about 25%/50% all around?
<ochosi> yeah, that's what it can do currently
<ochosi> i mean, i guess i know what you mean :)
<bluesabre> yeah, gotcha
<ochosi> you can either do 25% (via corners) or 50% (via sides)
<ochosi> or do 25 + 25 on the left and 50% on the right
<ochosi> which is pretty cool
<bluesabre> it would also be cool to be able to bind the corner tiling to keyboard shortcuts
<ochosi> yeah, that should be possible
<ochosi> with maximize, i'm thinking while people might be used to it, there are still soooo many other ways to maximize windows...
<ochosi> (double-click the titlebar, click the maximize button, kb-shortcut)
<bluesabre> agreed
<bluesabre> alrighty, time for work... bbl
<ochosi> knome: humm, i guess the XSD needs an amendment where it says that members of "xubuntu developers" have upload rights
<ochosi> that's not true anymore
<ochosi> and being admitted to that team also has become more as in other teams i'd say
<knome> hm?
<knome> has become more?
<ochosi> well the process used to involve the ubuntu development board
<knome> oh, right
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> but it doesn't anymore, becoming a member of xubuntu-dev is mostly being approved by team lead
<ochosi> and (maybe) xpl
 * bluesabre concurs
<ochosi> gives you push-rights, but no upload rights
<bluesabre> ~xubuntu-uploaders is the new upload team
<knome> if you want, i can help with drafting the text, but since it's mostly still a process description, it should go through without a hitch, so just notice the list that this is going to happen
<ochosi> i'm wondering whether we should just remove that paragraph
<knome> yeah, or that
<ochosi> since there are no fundamental differences with becoming a member of any other team
<ochosi> or sub-team
 * knome looks at the actual text now
<knome> yes, i remember i never really liked that one, but served a function back then
<ochosi> we could also redraft a paragraph on how to become a sub-team member, but then again, most of our sub-teams are one-man/woman shows, so i don't really see the need...
<knome> redraft?
<knome> what's wrong with the current one?
<ochosi> as long as we're less than 20 people i guess we can manage without
<knome> i mean, isn't that pretty much accurate?
<ochosi> i mean re-draft the xubuntu developers into becoming a member of a sub-team, like xubuntu-artwork
<knome> isn't it like it right now?
<knome> why should it be mentioned separately?
<ochosi> i only see the part about being a member
<ochosi> yeah, it probably shouldn't be
<ochosi> we probably don't need an official process for becoming a member of a subteam
<knome> getting into the artwork team gives push rights as well
<knome> we don't really have one
<bluesabre> yeah, no different there, just push rights to different components
<knome> but it's implied kind of, if you want to become a team member
<knome> well not kind of, it's implied, or tbe, it's said
<ochosi> yeah, but for team members to join a subteam i don't think we need any kind of procedure
<knome> what i think we could do
<ochosi> team leads should decide, period. they should manage their teams
<knome> well, we have this:
<knome> Commit meaningful contributions to one of the subteams, after which one will be approved to the subteam for "probation" by a subteam administrator
<knome> which is pretty accurate, and doesn't really enforce any specific policy
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> let's leave it at that then and just drop the "developers" paragraph
<knome> one thing we could add...
<knome> as i was saying
<knome> is to somehow mention that there are certain tasks which can only be conducted if the team members are part of some other, ubuntu-wide teams
<knome> like, docs pushing stuff
<ochosi> right
<knome> and that could be formalized in a manner that also mentioned packageset push rights
<knome> but that could probably go into the process descriptions as well
 * knome opens that page
<ochosi> might be subject to change though (as with the upload rights)
<ochosi> so i dunno, if you consider it important enough i'm ok with it, but i'm also fine without that part
<knome> the thing is,
<knome> it's given to us, but if an outsider reads the document or the descriptions, if we don't mention things, they won't know about them
<ochosi> i'd prefer it to go to processes actually
<knome> sure
<ochosi> makes more sense there than in the SD
<ochosi> so for the SD, let's drop the out-of-date developers part and for processes we can add a part about e.g. docs
<knome> we aren't listing xubuntu-uploaders anywhere
<knome> does that convert to "the members of X have upload rights for the xubuntu packageset" ?
<ochosi> yeah, but it's sorta processes->"packageset"
 * ochosi doesn't remember the process to get packageset rights clearly enough
<knome> bluesabre?
<knome> i don't know/care if you automatically get the upload rights when joining that team, i want to know if that's supposed to socially imply that
<knome> we really need to cut the processes page in chunks
<ochosi> yeah, probably
<knome> i've been planning that for a long time
<knome> now if only the wiki lets me do that..
<bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
<knome> bluesabre, i just wanted a yes/no ;'(
<bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeanDavis/DeveloperApplication
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> yes/no for what?
<ochosi> huhu
<knome> 13:37  knome: does that convert to "the members of X have upload rights for the xubuntu packageset" ?
<bluesabre> only members of ~xubuntu-uploaders, MOTU, and archive admins can upload to the xubuntu packageset
<knome> X being ~xubuntu-developers
<knome> err, uploaders..
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> our administrational motto: "ubuntu's process pages make people cry"
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<ochosi> knome: so to sum up, are you ok with me removing the developers paragraph or do you wanna reshape it into something else?
<knome> i am ok, and while i think it's going to be just ok, i'd do the comment round on the mailing list again
<ochosi> what exactly did you push to launchpad last time for review?
<ochosi> the wiki page itself?
<knome> yeah
<knome> but this time i'd say just an email would be enough
<knome> unless you plan to have a massive(ish) diff, like i did
<Unit193> ochosi: Hello.
<ochosi> knome: nah, just the simple thing
<ochosi> Unit193: just wanted to let you know that now there is a branch for testing. it contains an additional option that i originally didn't want in there, but it's based on master: https://github.com/cedl38/xfwm4/tree/tile
<ochosi> so if you feel like packaging that up, we can offer it to people for testing
<brainwash> is the corner tiling optional (disabled by default)?
<brainwash> Unit193: can ubiquity ship a custom ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfwm4.xml ? maybe you know something about this
<brainwash> which is only read by ubiquity-dm
<Unit193> Why would ubiquity read it?
<brainwash> ready by xfwm4 when run inside ubiquity-dm
<brainwash> this way we could hide unneeded window decoration buttons
<brainwash> mmh, we could run xfconf-query to alter values before xfwm starts, or?
<ochosi> re: ubiquity: that is totally overkill and unnecessary imo
<ochosi> we really have bigger fish to fry
<ochosi> there is one option for tiling, just as before
<knome> bbl
<brainwash> it's unnecessary to fix a bug? :/
 * ochosi sighs...
<Unit193> ochosi: Right, anywho yes.
<Unit193> ochosi: And you also have mail now, or soon.
<matt_symes> Just testing the new intelligent auto hiding panel as detailed in elfy's mailing list post. This is on Trusty. No problems so far and it looks good. My only question: is there an easy way to decrease the timeout when making the panel reappear; to make it reappear faster or is it a hardcoded value ?
<Unit193> brainwash: You have super cow powers with bugs right?  Can you mark this as unfixed in trusty? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/parsedatetime/+bug/1302963
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1302963 in parsedatetime (Ubuntu) "Calendar() class can not be initialized" [Medium,Fix released]
<slickymasterWork> you mean 'Won't fix' Unit193?
<elfy> ha 
<elfy> I read 'Won't Fix Until 193 
<elfy> we missed that one then :p
<slickymasterWork> hey elfy 
<elfy> hi slickymasterWork 
 * slickymasterWork could do it for Unit193 if only he'd answer him :P
<elfy> you'd be the old man of Xubuntu if you fix it in 193 :D
<slickymasterWork> :)
<slickymasterWork> some days I do feel liky one elfy 
 * elfy changes autocorrect for slickymasterWork to Methusela :p
<slickymasterWork> lol
<ochosi> elfy: in case you're ready for part 2 of the testing assignment i mentioned the other day (part 1 was the panel, thanks a bunch for writing that up and all!)...
<elfy> ochosi: given what I read in backlog just now - I'll go make a cuppa before saying anything like 'bring it on' :p
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> anyway, ping me whenever you're ready ;)
<elfy> ochosi: back :)
<ochosi> ok that was quick
<ochosi> so, this time we're looking at a new feature for xfwm4, which is corner-tiling
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> i'm not sure how widely this was tested, i think some arch users have been using it
<elfy> ok
<ochosi> but my idea is to give it some testing, then prepare a patch of it and propose it to get merged into xfwm4 master
<elfy> so currently we can tile 50% vert or horiz - that correct?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> with the new patch, you can drag windows to a corner to tile them to 25%
<elfy> right - so could have 2@ 25% on left say and one on right filling remainder? 
<ochosi> yup: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-11-163058.php
<elfy> cool - that's what I was expecting this to do - so we're on the same page :D
<ochosi> good :)
<ochosi> it's less complicated then intelligent hiding anyway ;)
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> so my idea would be that the two of us start using/testing this for a few days and then we send out a call
<ochosi> i don't wanna send out too many calls at once
<elfy> works for me - and is good timing - no work till Monday for me 
<ochosi> Unit193 was kind enough to package it up in his private repo: https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/xfce
<elfy> yep - agreed - better to space these things out 
<ochosi> i'll leave the package there until we send out the call
<ochosi> so feel free to just test from there until then
<elfy> ok - I'll add that in a moment and play around 
<elfy> so - one question - you want this tested WITH intellihide or seperately? 
<ochosi> it doesn't really matter
<ochosi> or: it shouldn't
<ochosi> or: hopefully it doesn't
<ochosi> :]
<elfy> heh
<ochosi> one thing that seems to be a regression - let me know whether you see that as well - is that the original window size is not restored on untiling
<elfy> ok
<ochosi> from the corners
<elfy> mmm
<ochosi> and i've noticed another glitch that i can't reproduce yet, where an app will look a bit scrambled when corner-tiled for the first time, then tiling again fixes that
<ochosi> still, a hickup that should be fixed, but in case you see it, i've got that covered already
<elfy> currently the hickup I've got is that shoving something in the corner does the same as vert tiling 
<elfy> restarted xfwm4 
<ochosi> yeah, gotta restart xfwm4 manually
<elfy> I did 
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> apt-cache policy xfwm4 gives you the PPA version?
<ochosi> let me check but i thought there was no special setting involved to enable it...
<elfy> yep - got the right one installed
<elfy> matt_symes: as far as I know the delay is hard-coded 
<ochosi> running this in the terminal returns true? xfconf-query -c xfwm4 -p /general/tile_on_move
<elfy> yep
<matt_symes> hey elfy :) No worries about the delay then. I can build it myself if needs be. The auto hiding panel is looking pretty good at the moment.
<elfy> thanks - but thank ochosi :)
<ochosi> elfy: and your mouse-cursor went really into the corner, i.e. the end of the screen and it didn't corner-tile?
<ochosi> (sorry to ask again)
<ochosi> matt_symes, elfy: correction, the delay should be configurable
<ochosi> but it's a hidden option iirc
<elfy> ochosi: cursor turned into a square
<elfy> ochosi: ok - didn't know that - but matt_symes knows I make stuff up as I go along :p
<matt_symes> Ahh. Excellent. How to i get to the hidden option ?
<matt_symes> lol elfy 
<ochosi> humm, oh, i just saw there is an option but it seems it's readonly :/
<ochosi> sorry
<elfy> ochosi: ok - no - it wasn't a square - just part of the cursor lol
<ochosi> it would've been popdown-delay and popup-delay in /panels/panel-0
<matt_symes> No worries ochosi elfy. Thanks for the info
<ochosi> does it hide too quickly or what was the issue?
<elfy> brb
<elfy> ochosi: ok - reboot did it - can confirm the not returning window to pre-tile size as well
<ochosi> rigt
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> i've just figured out how to reproduce the other bug i was talking about...
<ochosi> could you give these two steps a go? http://dpaste.com/3A913CF
<ochosi> result looks something like this: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-11-165349.php
<elfy> not seeing that 
<ochosi> yeah, might take >1 try and it has to be an app you newly opened
<ochosi> so first open e.g. mousepad, enlarge it by dragging it to the right bottom with alt+left-drag
<elfy> yea - I tried with a newly opened mousepad actually 
<elfy> not doing it here 
<elfy> ok - so this I didn't expect - got mousepad open and tiled in top left - open another mousepad and it moves to cover the existing one
<ochosi> elfy: maybe that's the bug
<ochosi> at first it looks like there's two
<ochosi> if they lose focus, you get the shadow i posted
<ochosi> gotta go
<ochosi> bbl
<elfy> just noticed that the meeting didn't happen because it got moved again ... slow day here
<pleia2> it's in 2 hrs 40 minutes
<pleia2> 22UTC
 * drc thinks that canceling/postponing any meeting (anywhere, anytime) is not necessarily a bad thing :)
<elfy> pleia2: yea - was originally expecting 1800
<ochosi> elfy: i only forgot to update the meeting wiki page at first, all links and the mail pointed to 22utc ;)
<ochosi> (even the link on the wiki page was correct though)
<ochosi> !team | reminder, meeting in less than 15mins!
<ubottu> reminder, meeting in less than 15mins!: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<skellat> o/
 * pleia2 wonders where the day has gone
 * slickymaster wonders the same about the 2014 year
 * skellat is watching the countdown until the federal budget crisis begins if nothing gets passed in the legislature and wondering what this will mean for his job...
<elfy> ochosi: lol - I don't actually look at the wiki page - I just see what turns up in the changes :p
<ochosi> elfy: did you take a screenshot of that bug you were experiencing btw?
 * Unit193 stabs ochosi.
<ochosi> ouch!
<ochosi> what did i do now??
<Unit193> General purposes.
<elfy> mmm ochosi - which bug? 
<Unit193> And I'm with slickymaster here.
 * slickymaster rejoices 
<elfy> really Unit193 ? pop by here on the way home then :D
<slickymaster> btw Unit193, you're with me on what?
<Unit193> ochosi: Also, you pinged last week about why ubottu was "broken", and it won't highlight people with a link, anti-spam.
<Unit193> *** slickymaster wonders the same about the 2014 year <<-----
<slickymaster> lol
<ochosi> elfy: the tiling bug with mousepad
<slickymaster> yeah
<ochosi> Unit193: right, good to know. thanks!
<ochosi> Unit193: but please don't stab me anymore just for "general purposes", i have feelings too!
<elfy> ochosi: nope - but I can if you like - they were definitely *different* instances - different names for one thing 
<ochosi> hm weird
<ochosi> yeah, please do
<Unit193> ochosi: You pinged when I was reading/watching comics! :P
<slickymaster> never mess with a guy and his comics
<ochosi> awwwwh, soooorrrry ;)
<elfy> okey doke ochosi, I'll try to capture if that helps 
<matte88> hi everyone!
<slickymaster> hi matte88 
<matte88> is there a meeting right now, am I right?
<ochosi> yeah, in 2mins approx
<matte88> perfect! it's my first meeting, I'm curious :)
<matte88> I'd like to contribute to ubuntu/xubuntu dev
<ochosi> nice, welcome aboard then!
<matte88> thanks ochosi!
<ochosi> feel free to stick around after the meeting for more informal talk
<ochosi> but yeah, depending on who is here, the meeting might also be more or less in/formal
<elfy> hi matte88 - nice to see you :)
<matte88> thanks elfy! ochosi, I will!
<ochosi> alrighty everyone...
<ochosi> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 11 22:01:01 2014 UTC.  The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ochosi> !team | meeting everyone, who's around?
<ubottu> meeting everyone, who's around?: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<pleia2> o/
<skellat> o/
<jjfrv8> o/
<elfy> t'is here
<dkessel> o/
<matte88> o/
<slickymaster> o/
<slickymaster> hey jjfrv8 
<slickymaster> skellat: 
<ochosi> ok, let's get to it then
<ochosi> #topic Open action items
<ochosi> as knome doesn't seem to be around, what about yours pleia2?
<pleia2> #done xubuntu-contacts mailing list has been set up
<pleia2> #done draft of etherpad for user self-classification survey
<elfy> pleia2: got a link to that? 
<pleia2> #link http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
<elfy> ty :)
<pleia2> #info unixstickers shipped the stickers + t-shirt order yesterday, so I should know the quality of the t-shirt in however long it takes to get to California from Italy :)
<ochosi> nice :)
<ochosi> looking forward to that!
<pleia2> they were quite generous, it was $380 worth of stickers+shirt they gave us
<elfy> I think QA should get one to check too ... 
<ochosi> sweet
<elfy> pleia2: wow !!!
<ochosi> pleia2: should we write a thank-you note on the blog or something?
<pleia2> ochosi: yeah, I think we'll do that when we formally update the site to promote the shirt
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<ochosi> well, great news either way!
<elfy> and everyone else I would think ochosi :)
<pleia2> yeah, I'm happy
<ochosi> great
<ochosi> i guess that's it though for open action items, let's move along to team updates...
<ochosi> unless there was anything else..?
<elfy> I'll try and track down knome re the QA process thing
<elfy> you can action me for that ochosi 
<ochosi> #action elfy to converse with knome about QA processes
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to converse with knome about QA processes
<ochosi> yup, was already typing it up ;)
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> okeydokey then
<ochosi> #topic Team updates
<ochosi> feel free to just #info whatever's going on in your teams
<elfy> I can go - quiet and quick
<ochosi> and after that, we go through the blueprints very quickly
<pleia2> #info Lots of positive social media response to both the Xfce surveys and call for testing of Intelligent Panel
<elfy> #info Not much in the way of image testing currently
<ochosi> guess ppl are waiting for the first milestone
<slickymaster> #info jjfrv8 finished the power manager docs I started abd then postponed, and they're already online -> http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/start
<slickymaster> s/abd/and
<elfy> #info package testing slow - as expected, given we've pulled that back now 
<slickymaster> thanks for that excelent work jjfrv8 
<skellat> When will we have Xfce survey results?
<elfy> #info QA and dev/ochosi calling for testing on staging 
<ochosi> #info the power-manager docs are actually here: http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/1.4/start
<ochosi> skellat: depends on when sidi has time to work on them
<elfy> #info jjfrv8 has been patiently checking through testcases for reporting issues
<elfy> thanks jjfrv8 - you don't know how much I appreciative that :D
<pleia2> #info Started planning a Xubuntu QA global jam for the California LoCo on Sunday February 8th, local marketing/qa? :)
<sidi> skellat, ochosi sorry about the delays. i have urgent stuff to finish up for a few studies at UCL
<ochosi> #info Thanks to Unit193 we'll have a panel in our ubiquity install session that exposes important indicators (network, sound, a11y)
<Unit193> ^ Not merged yet.
<elfy> ochosi: first milestone is next week - we're not taking part with that one - our first one will be A2 in January 
<ochosi> #info ochosi tested bluez5 (as that is supposedly an upcoming transition) and things seemed to work just fine (bluetooth keyboard)
<elfy> ty :)
<ochosi> elfy: yup i know, but i think the motivation for milestones is bigger than for exploratory testing
<ochosi> anyway, trying to lead by example ;)
 * ochosi is currently on vivid
<Unit193> I will have one there after A1 I believe.
<ochosi> #info Unit193 and bluesabre are also working towards resolving the black background in our ubiquity install session
<elfy> ochosi: and that's appreciated too ;)
<ochosi> #info gtk3.14 is still stuck, #ubuntu-desktop folks (mostly larsu) are still working on the transition
<elfy> ochosi: remind me please - that's the base reason to oddities with themes ? like no boxes for *ticks*
<ochosi> btw, vivid is working great so far, no big breakage
<ochosi> elfy: yes, our themes are ready for gtk3.14 already when it hasnt landed yet
<ochosi> i think that ^ is a first time for xubuntu in its history
<elfy> ok - that's good then :)
<slickymaster> there's always a first time for everything 
<ochosi> righty, any more updates?
<elfy> I might smile slickymaster :)
<Unit193> Meh, gtk3.14 being stuck isn't something I'd call bad.
<elfy> ochosi: not from me
<slickymaster> not from me
<ochosi> looking at http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu.html, we're sorta okayish
<ochosi> but also not progressing super-fast
<ochosi> quite a few workitems are stuck in TODO
<ochosi> anything you folks need help with?
<elfy> not QA wise - most is good 
<ochosi> (website, marketing and community are the ones looking worst on paper)
<elfy> if there's anything I can do to help other *teams* just ask 
<ochosi> i know that most things that are todo are bugs
<ochosi> but still, if there's things that are stuck or that you (the team leads) feel nobody is responsible for or really picking up, please get in touch!
<elfy> ochosi: I wonder if there is a way for the bug blueprint to not count towards burndown
<ochosi> i can't monitor everything (although i sometimes try to), so let's just keep our eyes open
<elfy> some of that might hang about for instance
<ochosi> well, we could unlink it
<elfy> right
<ochosi> but i don't mind if the graph isn't "pretty"
<ochosi> as long as we have an overview of what our tasks are
<elfy> my concern for that is - I'm happy to make sure things that *should* get looked at get added, but if there's no way that bug foo is going to be fixed - other's perhaps should unlink them
<ochosi> also, please assign as many workitems as possible to actual people, not teams
<ochosi> otherwise nobody might take responsibility
<ochosi> yeah, we can unlink bugs until the last moment though
<elfy> ochosi: well - generally I do that, but after a couple of cycles where it ended up being elfy I got a bit tired of that :)
<elfy> so [xubuntu-qa] is goiing to be rather present for a while
<ochosi> no worries, i can unlink them this cycle
<ochosi> ah, you meant that
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> anyway, i won't tell you how to run your teams, it was merely a suggestion
<ochosi> ok, moving along to announcements then...
<elfy> ochosi: bugs is my particular worry - I can link, but I'm not able to fix, so - unlink away :)
<ochosi> ok :)
<ochosi> i can try to fix, but it's all a matter of time...
<ochosi> which brings me to ...
<ochosi> #topic Announcements
<ochosi> #info I'm proposing to retire all themes from the default install except Numix and Greybird
<elfy> gah 
<ochosi> it's actually slightly more than a proposal, i don't have time to update all of them for every gtk3 release
<elfy> didn't see Greybird to start with lol 
<ochosi> so if anyone else in the team wants to pick that up, i'm happy to pass that along and help a bit initially
<elfy> I would rather see 2 themes that completely work tbh
<ochosi> but i really don't have time with working on development, artwork and being XPL to do this sort of work for 5 themes
<Unit193> Glad Numix is one of them.
<ochosi> the decision for the two is simply that Greybird is our default and i'd like the next LTS->LTS upgrade to go without theme breakage
<ochosi> and Numix is the best maintained theme other than Greybird
<slickymaster> I'm glad Greybird is the other Unit193 
<elfy> ochosi: I guess that at the end of the day that's why this is a community meeting - nothing to stop people shouting out to help
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> and also why i'm trying to announce this as early as i can
<ochosi> i was initially considering to push fixes to all themes for 3.14, because it seemed manageable
<ochosi> but there are more changes coming along, and i don't have more time to spend on that
<ochosi> fwiw, if anyone wants to keep testing the themes and if they work well enough, we can still decide to ship them
<ochosi> but no maintenance >15.04
<elfy> then now's the time to announce :)
<elfy> slickymaster: you should mention that in here :)
<slickymaster> planning to elfy 
<ochosi> announcements slickymaster? :)
<slickymaster> nopes, something else ochosi 
<slickymaster> i'll bring it up in a moment
<ochosi> you mean in the discussion part or should we just hang in there for you now? :)
<slickymaster> ochosi, i was wondering wonders why isn't xubuntu-v-docs listed in the 'Contributing Blueprints' of http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu.html
<slickymaster> it's the only one not listed
<ochosi> guess it wasnt set to approved for some reason
<elfy> there should be 1 thing on the burndown - everything else has a *name* to i
<ochosi> only "proposed for vivid"
<ochosi> i'll ask in -release later
<elfy> ochosi: qa is at Needs Approval too 
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> hm
<ochosi> i'll ask around then
<ochosi> thanks for bringing it up slickymaster 
<slickymaster> np ochosi 
<elfy> aaah
<ochosi> #action ochosi to investigate why xubuntu-v-docs isnt shown in status.ubuntu.com
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to investigate why xubuntu-v-docs isnt shown in status.ubuntu.com
<elfy> QA is accepted for series
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's what i was referring to
<slickymaster> and btw you apppproved the -docs blueprint ochosi 
<ochosi> the folks from -release have to do that
<ochosi> slickymaster: yeah, just now ;)
<elfy> sorry - I was looking elsewhere ochosi 
<ochosi> slickymaster: but as elfy said, it's not about that
<slickymaster> ok
<ochosi> alrighty, any other announcements or shall we move on..?
<elfy> nothing here 
<slickymaster> nothing else here
<ochosi> pleia2, skellat, jjfrv8 ?
<jjfrv8> not here
<skellat> I'm good
<pleia2> all god
<pleia2> good
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> #topic Discussion
<ochosi> so, we have one point that is up for discussion from the agenda
<ochosi> we voted to remove xchat from our default install in 14.10
<ochosi> the question is, how do we evaluate whether that was the right choice
<ochosi> i've discussed this already with some of you in the last few days
<ochosi> so lemme quickly summarise:
<ochosi> 1. there is no quantitative data on which irc client is used most to connect to #xubuntu (asked freenode)
<ochosi> 2. there were no complaints about xchat not being installed uttered in #xubuntu as far as i (and the people i talked to) can tell
 * skellat notes there are no questions about the issue over on AskUbuntu
<ochosi> 3. there were no complaints in 14.10 reviews about xchat not being installed, in fact it was never even mentioned as far as i can tell
 * elfy adds he's not seen anything anywhere 
<ochosi> we don't have to make a final decision today, but i'm leaning towards thinking that it was a good or at least an OK decision
<ochosi> but i'd like to hear from you
<pleia2> I've not seen complaints about removal
<pleia2> (re: social media)
<elfy> ochosi: well as you know, I've more time for a poke in the eye than for irssi or weechat or the like, but I just install it 
<elfy> like lo and other things
<skellat> If we're not seeing questions on AskUbuntu, not seeing it questioned in reviews, nothing spotted on social media, and not getting static from complaints...I think we've done okay with evaluation
<elfy> I'd be +1 for remaining as we are
<ochosi> yeah, i guess we all install/remove stuff from the default install
<ochosi> i agree
<elfy> ochosi: indeed - but if I saw lot's of howls I would say so
<ochosi> howls?
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> :)
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> let's do a very quick vote just to paint a clearer picture
<elfy> and I would also be in a position to see jailed trolling on UF
 * slickymaster would backup elfy on that
<ochosi> #vote Based on the feedback from the community, should we stick to our decision of not installing XChat by default anymore?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Based on the feedback from the community, should we stick to our decision of not installing XChat by default anymore?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<slickymaster> +1
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slickymaster
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<slickymaster> where's Unit193?
<ochosi> lurking, as always :p
<elfy> sleeping
<Unit193> "coding"
<elfy> heh
<ochosi> Unit193: cool, just take a break to quickly vote plu
<ochosi> plz
<elfy> that'll be *code* then :)
<slickymaster> lol
<Unit193> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Unit193
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> haha
 * sidi is tempted to type +ponies
<ochosi> dkessel: ?
<matte88> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from matte88
<elfy> dkessel is probably aware he's not actually in -team ochosi 
<dkessel> oooh
<dkessel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dkessel
<ochosi> right, but it's ok
<elfy> possibly shoudl be though :)
<dkessel> didn't notice the ping
<ochosi> just wanted to gather more feedback via the vote
<ochosi> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Based on the feedback from the community, should we stick to our decision of not installing XChat by default anymore?
<meetingology> Votes for:8 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elfy> and votes from the floor are good too matte88 :)
<ochosi> yup
<matte88> ahahah thanks!
<ochosi> ok, so there goes that workitem
<ochosi> righty, anything else up for discussion?
<elfy> matte88: good to see community joining in :)
<elfy> they probably mean more to those of us who do these things than you think ;)
<elfy> I love to see people not in -team making their voice heard - adds to the communal value of this 
<matte88> the truth is that I didn't know that the vote was asked just to team members :)
<ochosi> i was ok with others voting
<ochosi> probably also because it was quite unisono
<elfy> matte88: doesn't matter to me too much - wouldn't have counted as a vote - but it IS a community member shouting out :)
<ochosi> alrighty, since there don't seem to be further discussions, let's end the meeting
<ochosi> thanks everyone!
<slickymaster> thanks ochosi 
<ochosi> #action ochosi to schedule the next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to schedule the next meeting
<ochosi> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 11 22:55:52 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-12-11-22.01.moin.txt
<jjfrv8> slickymaster, hello (belatedly)
<slickymaster> lol, np jjfrv8 
<ochosi> ok, minutes are up
<elfy> awesome - thanks ochosi :)
<ochosi> matte88: just some quick questions, if you have time
<ochosi> how would you like to contribute or what areas of interest do you have wrt xubuntu?
<elfy> ochosi: quick one - assuming that we inly let one *name* chair - next up is Unit193 ?
<ochosi> yeah true
<ochosi> forgot about that
<ochosi> i wouldn't mind if Unit193 chairs the next one, especially as it'd help with rotating the timezones a bit more
<elfy> never forget when Unit193 is next :p
<ochosi> Unit193: would you mind?
<elfy> noooooooooooo
<elfy> not a question :D
<ochosi> it was a rhetorical question
<elfy> phew ... 
<ochosi> also, if Unit193 is "in the zone" and coding away, i don't really want to disturb him
<Unit193> I like the idea of ochosi doing it more. :P
<ochosi> why am i not surprised...
<elfy> ochosi: I'll remind him in the morning when he's had no sleep :p
<ochosi> huhu, do that
<elfy> heh
 * elfy is trying very hard to get elfy to be chair JUST prior to A2 :)
<ochosi> we can always create anomalies in the order of meeting-chairs for events like that
<ochosi> bbabl
<ochosi> elfy: don't forget about the tiling-bug screenshot btw!
<ochosi> ->
<elfy> ochosi: I will try and screencast it too
<elfy> anyway - getting on now 
<Unit193> Right, so don't want to put it too soon as there seems to be not much on the agenda.  I could do it next week, or the 22nd.
<Unit193> 22:00 UTC sounds great, though.
<elfy> 2200UTC usually sound ok to me 
<slickymaster> I'm ok with that hour also
<elfy> but it is good to try and get meeting times that bluesabre can make
<elfy> I'll set my *next* one to a day off at a good time for hime
<matte88> guys, can I ask you some questions?
<slickymaster> shoot matte88 
<elfy> that's a bit harsh :(
<elfy> :)
<slickymaster> go for it matte88 ;)
<matte88> I'd like to get involved in xubuntu development
<matte88> what should I do?
<elfy> matte88: it really does depend on what 
<elfy> a - you can do
<elfy> b - you want to do
<elfy> c - what needs to be done
<elfy> :)
<matte88> ok..I'd like to code, since I'm a computer engineer
<elfy> xubuntu isn't xfce - though it is symbiotic
<matte88> (young and unexperienced XD)
<elfy> right - so I am not the person to talk with :)
<Unit193> It's all voodoo to elfy, though bluesabre would be good.
<elfy> \o/ 
<matte88> allright :)..we had this conversation last week and someone told me "join the meeting"
<matte88> here I am :)
<ali1234> matte88: you have two options really, either packaging or working upstream
<ali1234> they don't really overlap much
<matte88> could you explain the differences?
<ali1234> well working upstream means working on the software, fixing bugs and adding features
<ali1234> packaging means taking the source code from upstream and turning it into a debian package for installation on ubuntu
<ali1234> and perhaps adding some patches to fix any incompatibilities
<Unit193> I do the latter, ali1234 does the former.
<matte88> oh! both of them are interesting to me!
<ali1234> yes, i have absolutely no idea how to make packages :)
<matte88> I'd like to start with working upstream, if possible
<ali1234> okay, what knowledge/experience do you have already?
<matte88> I like mostly working with C/C++ and Java, but I don't mind using other languages
<ali1234> do you know Gtk+?
<ali1234> Xfce is written in C and Gtk+, and uses autoconf for build system and git for VCS
<matte88> i just know that is a toolkit for GUIs
<ali1234> are you familiar with GUI programming in general? if so it's easy enough to pick up
<matte88> umh I have a little experience with Visual C++ and C# on Win (sorry about that :D )
<ali1234> hmm...
<ali1234> do you have anything in mind that you want to work on? like a specific bug that affects you?
<ali1234> that's where most people start
<matte88> maybe..I use xubuntu 14.04 and this is what I noticed many times
<matte88> 1 - using chrome
<matte88> 2 - lock the screen
<matte88> 3 - unlock the screen, then an error message pops up telling me that a crash has been reported and the window asks me wheter I wan to relaunch chrome or close it
<ochosi> hm, that is not an easy one to fix
<ali1234> you don't want to start with screen locking, trust me
<ochosi> i'd recommend a more contained issue
<matte88> after this I have to launch again chrome because it doesn't work anymore
<matte88> ok ok..that's just the bug that came to my mind 
<elfy> Unit193: you going for next week at 2200 ?
<ali1234> well, i could walk you through triage for that
<ali1234> but it might turn out to be unfixable
<matte88> or maybe you could suggest me other bugs to fix
<matte88> why unfixable?
<ali1234> because screen locking is really really complicated
 * elfy would want to be all over any meeting in week starting 19th Jan
<ali1234> i can walk you through the process of fixing a known bug
<ali1234> ie what happened and how it got fixed
<matte88> sounds good
<ali1234> i actually just found a new bug :(
<ali1234> okay, have you got about an hour free for this?
<elfy> is that not good though ali1234 ? 
<ali1234> elfy: it's meh
<elfy> before bert found it ... 
<ali1234> bert?
<elfy> most are ali1234 - I just find bugs
<Unit193> elfy: I could go for a day next week, or the 22nd.  DIdn't know what'd work better for others.
<elfy> ali1234: bert is foo for the old amongst me :)
<elfy> later in day is good for me. I just think an earlier one soon would be good to see bluesabre 
<elfy> I can set mine to suit him though
<Unit193> Meh, so looking like the 19th, alright.
<matte88> ali1234 are you talking to me?
<ali1234> matte88: yes
<elfy> matte88: he is :)
<matte88> "<ali1234> okay, have you got about an hour free for this?"
<ali1234> yes
<elfy> Unit193: wfm tbh 
<knome> oh bah;
<matte88> not now unfortunately (I'm working while I'm talking to you guys )
<knome> i didn't expect to be away this long
<knome> and yeah, i should send the QA process mail
<ali1234> okay, no problem
<ali1234> just ping me when you have some spare time
<matte88> are you free later?
<ali1234> no, it's midnight here
<matte88> oh, I'm sorry!
<matte88> 3:53 pm here :)
<ali1234> so what i was going to do is show you a bug in 14.04 that we've already fixed
<matte88> ok! which bug?
<ali1234> the bug is in mousepad, if you open a file, edit it, then file->revert, you get an error message even though it did revert the file
<ali1234> so then i was going to show you how to download the mousepad source, trace the bug, fix it, and make a patch
<ali1234> this is a really easy bug so someone already sent a patch upstream for it, but it's illustrative of the process
<brainwash> you should write a howto article
<ali1234> perhaps i'll do that
<ali1234> i was going to make you find the actual problem though :)
<brainwash> which problem?
<ali1234> the problem causing the bug of course :)
<ali1234> if i told you what it was, that would spoil the fun
<matte88> ali1234, you can start telling me something, then we could continue another time
#xubuntu-devel 2014-12-12
<ali1234> well, okay, thevery first thing you should do is try to reproduce the bug yourself. if you can't do that you can't fix it
<ali1234> the next step is to install all the software you need in order to fix it
<elfy> knome: would be fairly good to catch sight of it again :)
<elfy> just for Justin ofc :)
<matte88> so I should just edit a file and revert it in mousepad?
<knome> elfy, heh, yep
<ali1234> matte88: yes, but it has to be one you opened, not one you created then saved, due to another bug i just found
<ali1234> you can create, save, quit, open, edit, revert
<elfy> knome: :)
<matte88> ok, a file which already exists
<elfy> knome: no real reason to not get that out to bed I guess
<elfy> another day though 
<matte88> ok, I'll try it later on my pc
<matte88> after that what kind of software do I need to install?
<ali1234> you'll need git, build-essential, and the dependencies of mousepad
<ali1234> and you'll need to clone the upstream source of mousepad
<ali1234> plus your text editor of choice
<matte88> I see..aside from this technical stuff, how are you organized? I mean, i read before that there are different teams
<ali1234> there are a bunch of different teams in xubuntu, but upstream development is more adhoc
<knome> matte88, the teams in xubuntu are very loosely organized too
<knome> basically people who are interested about a thing (say artwork) are called that team..
<ali1234> don't worry about organization, just send patches
<knome> yeah.
<matte88> I see
<knome> xubuntu is a smallish team whatsoever
<matte88> ahahaah I can't wait to be honest
<ali1234> (i'll cover how to send patches after we find the bug)
<matte88> perfect
<ali1234> i'm writing this up as a guide
<matte88> awesome!
<matte88> where will you put it?
<ali1234> probably on my blog which i never put anything on
<knome> ali1234, could also publish it on xubuntu.org,
<brainwash> and/or xfce.org
<matte88> great
<ali1234> pad.ubuntu.org
<ali1234> oops :)
<ali1234> http://pad.ubuntu.com/NAYlTHW4ZR is what i've got so far
<knome> nighty, see you all later
<anolis> 'Evening yall
<brainwash> elfy: I've removed the config folder before launching abiword
<brainwash> it's a normal installation: not virtual, no live mode
<elfy> so is this one - I can reproduce that issue every time here
<elfy> brainwash: you've got a real vivid install ? \o/ 
<brainwash> yea
<brainwash> enabling crash data collection in apport helps a lot I think
<brainwash> bug 1401609
<ubottu> bug 1401609 in gmusicbrowser (Ubuntu) "gmusicbrowser crashed with SIGSEGV in emission_find()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1401609
<brainwash> opened it randomly, closed it and... crash
<brainwash> would it help to advice testers to add 'crash' to the apport config?
<brainwash> maybe it's not, because hardly anyone actually looks at these crash reports
<elfy> brainwash: booted live session, made sure there was no .config/abiword - started abiword, hit space 22 time - I know that because the top instance is Untitled22 ;)
<brainwash> elfy: do you type or press any keys before abiword is fully loaded?
<elfy> nope 
<brainwash> the obvious fix is to replace abiword with libreoffice writer :)
<elfy> yea :)
<brainwash> I'll load the guest session and test it again
<elfy> just as well lose gnumeric at that point :p
<elfy> oops - best have lo calc too then 
<elfy> I wonder why I can reproduce this here till the cows come home and you can't 
<brainwash> abiword in guest session works fine too
<elfy> delete .config/abiword and try again
<brainwash> the guest session has no greeter wallpaper, it shows a plain black background. is this ok?
<ochosi> should show the default wallpaper
<brainwash> the guest session has a clean config folder
<elfy> no idea - never use guest sessions 
<ochosi> but if you're e.g. using nouveau drivers, the wallpaper might still be messed up
<elfy> hi ochosi 
<ochosi> heya elfy 
<brainwash> it's not messed up, just missing
<ochosi> right, not sure what's up there tbh
<ochosi> when logging in there's the default wallpaper though, right?
<brainwash> yes
 * ochosi shrugs
<ochosi> maybe something with accountsservice not working correctly with the guest session
<brainwash> gtk-greeter has changed a bit in the last few months, code wise
<ochosi> i guess "a bit" would be an understatement
<brainwash> but it's no a valid user
<brainwash> heh :D
<ochosi> but yeah, there are several more branches pending, so i suggest we wait until those have landed and if there are still problems, we can investigate
<ochosi> although even then, it's not very high on my list tbh
<brainwash> right, I'll file a report
<ochosi> i'd rather get other stuff done
<brainwash> no.. but I randomly discover these little bugs
<elfy> ochosi: not sure how long you want me to be looking at this tiling update - not something I would choose to use, so sooner the better :p
<ochosi> elfy: as there shouldn't be any regressions (ideally and as far as i can tell) just keep using it, you don't have to pay special attention to it
<ochosi> if you feel the tiling isn't useful to you, feel free not to use it since you've already tested it for a bit
<ochosi> i'd still wanna wait a bit longer until sending out the testing call, also wanna clarify some stuff with cedric on the weekend (author of the branch)
<elfy> ok - thanks boss :p 
<jjfrv8> elfy, I just noticed something about the abiword thing. It seems to depend on the position of the mouse cursor - at least on my two existing installations.
<jjfrv8> when I first launch abiword, it opens unmaximized and, if my mouse cursor is not in the window, I get the bug.
<jjfrv8> as windows keep opening on pressing space, eventually I might get a window where the mouse cursor happens to be positioned in the body of the message... and then typing starts working normally
<jjfrv8> this seems to be the case whether or not the .config folder exists
<elfy>  yep - see the same 
<elfy> bizarre 
<jjfrv8> I can add a comment to the bugs later, gotta run now.
<ObrienDave> could it have something to do with 'focus' stealing prevention?
<brainwash> ObrienDave: is it enabled by default?
<ObrienDave> no, i have all of that stuff enabled and i see similar behavior with abiword
<brainwash> we mostly tested it in a fresh environment, so it wasn't enabled I guess
<ali1234> okay i finally fixed that gnome-system-tools so it installs nt with packagekit
<ali1234> it's a big copy-paste job
<ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/1270090
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1270090 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "time-admin can not install ntp" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ali1234> https://launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/+archive/ubuntu/gst-packagekit
<ochosi> oh, when reading that last URL i first read "gstreamer"
<ochosi> would have been nice too, installing gst-plugins via packagekit...
<ali1234> yes, sorry
<ali1234> doesn't it already do that?
<ochosi> not really
<ali1234> i can't rename the ppa now anyway
<ali1234> well, it's very easy to do
<ali1234> this took me like half an hour
<ochosi> last time i checked it just shipped a dumb script that installs plugins (and almost always fails, as you can see in parole)
<ali1234> yeah, i just use mpv because of this
<ochosi> understandable
<ochosi> thing is, neither of us (parole maintainers) has any packagekit experience, so it's stuck on our roadmap for a while already
<ali1234> http://www.freedesktop.org/software/PackageKit/pk-faq.html#session-methods
<ali1234> check the C example, it's really simple
<ochosi> yeah, i guess the problem with gst-plugins is that their package-names might differ depending on the distro
<ali1234> yeah
<ochosi> that was the issue the script tried to "work around" by being maintained by distributors
<ali1234> this gnome-system-tools stuff is an ubuntu patch anyway
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i guess we'd need distributor-specific patches for parole and packagekit
<ochosi> -> not cool
<ali1234> you won't need to patch packagekit
<ochosi> yeah, but we need to have the right plugin-names per distributor
<ali1234> ah, for upstream yes
<ali1234> however you can ask packagekit which distro you are on
<ochosi> yup, i was thinking upstream
<ochosi> oh, hm, that could work/help
<ali1234> anyway this bug now needs a packaging person to look at my debdiff and do it properly
<ochosi> ali1234: one from u-desktop or from us?
<ali1234> either. ubutu-sponsors has been auto-subscribed
<ochosi> oh, good
<ali1234> i never know if i'm doing packaging things right
<ali1234> i can just about use quilt
<ali1234> it seems to work anyway
<brainwash> ali1234: any idea what MATE is doing?
<ali1234> about what?
<brainwash> with their mate-system-tools
<ali1234> oh, no
<ali1234> upstream gnome-system-tools does not attempt to install anything itself
<brainwash> the plan was to switch to their fork of gst
<brainwash> the upstream one is the simplified gtk3 one
<brainwash> which heavily depends on gnome3, right?
<ali1234> the upstream one has never done it
<ali1234> even when it was gtk2
<ali1234> the installer stuff is entirely added by ubuntu
<ali1234> so it won't be in mate
<brainwash> why not simply drop the ubuntu patch then?
<ali1234> because it's easy to fix?
<brainwash> took you 9 months :P
<brainwash> so mmh, if we switch to mate-system-tools, then it won't have the installer code
<ali1234> right
<ali1234> unless someone sends this patch to mate
<ali1234> or the mate package in ubuntu
<brainwash> I assume that we are the last ones who still install gnome-system-tools
<ali1234> probably
<brainwash> "mate-system-tools will be removed in 1.10"
<brainwash> ?!
<brainwash> according to the github issue tracker
#xubuntu-devel 2014-12-13
 * ochosi stabs Unit193 
<bluesabre> so much love there
<ochosi> :)
 * ochosi just loves stabbing people back
<Unit193> What'd I get stabbed for?
<ochosi> general purposes
<ochosi> that, plus something else
<bluesabre> Interested in being added to ~xubuntu-dev?
 * bluesabre doesn't know how to beat around the bush
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, i guess bluesabre is right. this ^ is it. boom.
<Unit193> Sure.
<bluesabre> That was easy.
<ochosi> good. let's go for it then
<ochosi> bluesabre: you doin' the honors?
<bluesabre> ochosi: so, I just need to add him and mail the ML?
<ochosi> yup
<bluesabre> cake.
<bluesabre> will do so now
<ochosi> cool
<Unit193> Thanks, folks.
<ochosi> Unit193: welcome aboard! :) so i expect from 15.10 onwards you'll directly update the plymouth text-theme ;p
<bluesabre> thank you, you've been doing a lot of heavy lifting lately, so we thought we'd let you do a bit more :)
<drc> No good deed goes unpunished
<skellat> Amen
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> see, that even brought the lurkers out
<ochosi> Unit193: no, seriously, you've been a great help!
<skellat> I'm not lurking...it is just that every time I show up for a community governance "Google Hangout" I wind up with even more workitems on another blueprint
<Unit193> ochosi: Thanks, and yeah that does give me access! :D
<ochosi> Unit193: guess i could've left that one for you for 15.04 as well..
<Unit193> Well, except I don't know how to do the other part yet. :P
<bluesabre> which part of what?
<Unit193> ochosi: So, new xfwm4 right?  Doesn't seem to try and cover all blank desktop space first like older versions did.  Open four terminals and used to be they'd be in seperate places on the screen.  Now it opens two in different places, then loops back to where #1 started.
<ali1234> it opens everything in the middle of the screen for me
#xubuntu-devel 2014-12-14
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Can we sync xfce4-notes-plugin?
<ochosi> Unit193: this is what happens here when opening 4 terms consecutively: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-14-040343.php
<Unit193> Heh, weird terminals. :P
<Unit193> But yeah, that's what's supposed to.  Mine all just follow the first two now. :P
<ochosi> well not sure what's up with that
<ochosi> you're sure it's related to corner tiling?
<ochosi> like, could you post a before/after of opening 4 terms?
<ochosi> morning everyone
<ochosi> bluesabre: gah, i guess we have to fix xdg-screensaver. for resuming the screensaver it runs "xset s default > /dev/null" instead of restoring the previous value, so we always end up with "600" afterwards (that's the bug elfy discovered)
<bluesabre> good morning everyone
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey knome
<ochosi> morning guys
<knome> hye ochosi 
<ochosi> (and gals, in case there are any lurking)
<knome> btw, https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-commences-review-of-high-priority-free-software-projects-list-your-input-is-needed
<Unit193> Aka, "the dead list"?
<knome> eh :P
<elfy> morning all 
<knome> hey Unit193, elfy 
<ochosi> weird, bluesabre says "morning" and suddenly everyone pops up...
 * ochosi is wondering what he did wrong
<knome> :D
<Unit193> ochosi: At least I read it.
<bluesabre> must mean I have a todo list
<knome> ochosi, maybe your morning was too early ;)
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'm not sure what to do about xdg-screensaver btw, i mean yeah, we could patch it to get the current value and save it to a temp file or something, but it's gonna be ugly and might introduce depends on stuff like sed
<bluesabre> its because it wasn't a "good" morning
<ochosi> crap, yeah, now i see it :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, that's going to be the way to go
<ochosi> well thanks for teaching me a lesson
<ochosi> how many media-players really use xdg-screensaver?
<bluesabre> just drop a xdg-screensaver.tmp in ~/.cache
<ochosi> yeah, prolly
<elfy> ochosi: lol 
<Unit193> bluesabre: This isn't a good morning either, he was more accurate.
<knome> being too accurate often doesn't get you any friends
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: I was trying to help folks forget about the pains of this morning
<bluesabre> :P
<ochosi> rrrrright, bluesabre, savior of the pain-ridden
 * ochosi totally buys it
<elfy> heh
<elfy> ochosi: needs to set up xubuntu-softy for bluesabre 
<knome> well there has to be people with pain since ochosi uses the whip so often
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> I think its probably safe to remove the xfce-4.6 migration code from the notes-plugin now, eh?
<ochosi> elfy: huhu
<knome> haha
<bluesabre> we've had two LTSs since it was added
<ochosi> wow, that really is still there?
<knome> i'd join -softy with bluesabre 
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, drop it
<knome> it's so great to have a person with upload rights to our own packages who is available often... thanks bluesabre!
<Unit193> I can't join -softy.
<ochosi> +100
<ochosi> err, i meant: knome: +100
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> elfy: btw, i fixed that window shading bug with intelligent hiding
<bluesabre> ochosi: nice, what did you end up doing to fix it?
<elfy> cool - I still haven't seen that here though
<elfy> bluesabre: I sent him my desktop :D
<ochosi> elfy: it's attached to the bugreport you submitted upstream for review
<ochosi> bluesabre: used libwnck to query the active window's state, and if shaded, added an xlib call to check the size of the window frame
<bluesabre> nice
<ochosi> yeah, i'm surprised it works :p
<ochosi> that XGetWindowProperty call still looks like black magic to me tbh
<knome> what was it about libwnck ofourdan said?
<ochosi> he doesn't want it as a (optional) depend for xfwm4
<knome> but panel is ok?
<ochosi> which is understandable though
<elfy> ochosi: sorry - confused - was sonfusing shading/rolling up with your thing that you see
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> okay, good
<ochosi> elfy: you mean with the corner tiling bug?
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> oh wow, spooky...
<elfy> I'm on song now :D
<ochosi> the very moment i mentioned "corner tiling" in here, i received an email by cedric about it
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<knome> hah
<elfy> ochosi: as soon as the fix arrives here I'll check it out :)
<ochosi> yeah, i know it works, but i want olivier to review it
<ochosi> he seems to one with the most profound X knowledge
<ochosi> bluesabre: what do you have on your menu today? anything i should join in?
<bluesabre> ochosi, syncing the notes plugin, then something for a bit (not sure yet), and heading back to Louisville for more hunting today
<ochosi> ah righty
<bluesabre> we think we finally found a place we like, going to hopefully make a decision today
<ochosi> still the apartment
 * ochosi knocks on wood
<ochosi> so the "something" could be greeter or whatever i guess?
<ochosi> saw you did some merges there btw, thanks a bunch
<Unit193> Guess I need to sub xnox to the merge.
<ochosi> yup
<bluesabre> Unit193: which merge?
<ochosi> i was wondering why you didn't ask for his review too
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, probably
<ochosi> ubiquity panel
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> think I was tagged on that
<elfy> bluesabre: what's going on with the black screen at try/install business ? 
 * elfy has missed what's been going on there
<bluesabre> elfy: I think we're going to stop using xfdesktop and switch to feh to fix that issue at try/install
<Unit193> elfy: http://paste.openstack.org/show/EMBITDOrfqns9GAt4E0v/ would technically fix it. :P
<bluesabre> or that
<elfy> Unit193: thanks .... 
<bluesabre> :D
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks for a reply that makes sense to me :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: Well, we'd actually either start using feh or start using xfdesktop. :P
<ochosi> yup, what he said ^
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: Synced the notes plugin
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> btw, if you're not gonna need i might try myself some cairo+xlib drawing (trying to replace that oldschool frame xfwm4 draws when moving/resizing windows with something more appealing)
<ochosi> but i can also look into the greeter stuff with you, if that's what you wanna look at next
<bluesabre> no need, I should be able to handle the merges
<ochosi> ok cool
<ochosi> bluesabre: btw, s/easy-in-out/ease-in-out/
<ochosi> we should rename that before merging ;)
<brainwash> ali1234: can you explain this glitch http://media.cdn.ubuntu-de.org/forum/attachments/20/49/7202928-out-4.ogx ?
<brainwash> it's supposed to be Xubuntu
<ochosi> just tell the guy/gal to disable showing the window content on resizing ;)
<brainwash> too easy
<brainwash> but I'll suggest it
<brainwash> it looks like a libreoffice/driver specific problem
<ochosi> from my pov it could be anything from the graphics driver not doing the redraws or LO itself
<ochosi> so there's not that much you can do about that if it's that
<brainwash> indeed, but maybe ali1234 knows something about this :)
<ali1234> i would guess that wiwndow is not supposed to be resized
<ali1234> so it does not handle the resize event
<ali1234> and doesn't redraw itself if it happens
<brainwash> ali1234: something like resizing a window beyond its max size?
<brainwash> the max size of the content I mean
<brainwash> ochosi, ali1234: problem solved by installing libreoffice-gtk
<drc> pleia2: Again, http://netrunner-mag.com/best-xfce-distro-of-2014/
<pleia2> drc: nice, thanks
<drc> you still want them here if/when I see them?
<pleia2> drc: yes please :)
<pleia2> "Xubuntu is all about Xubuntu. Itâs focused, and over the years, this has helped transform it from a hack into a fine swan, gliding above the Open Source Lake."
<pleia2> go us
<drc> Done and Done.
<drc> You do know what's gong to happen if you slack off for release...red meat time :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-07
<krytarik> knome: Do you insist on using the larger mouse logo in the header of the scrolled view on smaller screens, or can we just use the usual one with the name included, too?
<krytarik> (In case of the latter, I have a solution worked out already.)
<krytarik> (â http://paste.openstack.org/show/fwuL02wo8nQ3d7VPsCSA/ )
<bluesabre> late late evening all
<flocculant> bluesabre: I did 3 tasks thunar/menulibre and parole - just to confirm new bugs and upstream where it's possible
<flocculant> afternoon all 
<bluesabre> hey flocculant 
<flocculant> hi bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: anything I need to do with that? I'm at home today, so can help take care of tasks
<flocculant> bluesabre: nope - all I did was add them - then wait for people to take it up and possibly some might contact me
<flocculant> https://codein.withgoogle.com/dashboard/tasks/5713974762930176/
<flocculant> for instance is the thunar one
<bluesabre> seems to be private to you
<bluesabre> 403 here
<flocculant> mmm
<Akxwi-dave> hi guys sorry, was away with the fairies there....
<flocculant> bluesabre: perhaps because it's not live yet 
<bluesabre> probably
<flocculant> hi Akxwi-dave :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: http://i.imgur.com/aDiCHJ4.png
<bluesabre> flocculant: cool, seems reasonable
<flocculant> yea - the first link is a newest first listing of thunar new bugs in LP, second is what bugzilla shows for thunar
<flocculant> not going to do anything else unless someone in 'team' thinks of something 
<flocculant> current thinking is if the few tasks I did for us get finished I'll add similar again :)
<bluesabre> cool cool
<bluesabre> what sort of tasks do ubuntu proper and kubuntu have listed?
<flocculant> not sure about kubuntu
<flocculant> ubuntu has a bunch of phone stuff, seen some mir tasks
<flocculant> there's 97 listed :D
<bluesabre> nice
<flocculant> updating doc(s)
<flocculant> Akxwi-dave: I've had people asking how to package testing, I think that a session in the new year for that will be useful
<Akxwi-dave> Deffo...  I've got 2 weeks off at xmas so will get something better worked out for New Year just for PAckage Testing
<flocculant> Akxwi-dave: feb looks best - pointless straight after xmas - feb has 3 package calls in wk 1-3 and then beta 1 in week 4 
<Akxwi-dave> what time in feb is the 1st package call?
<flocculant> Akxwi-dave: http://tracker.xubuntu.org/#tab-calendar
<flocculant> http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubpktesting  - we can use that to work things out 
<flocculant> we could run it 30/31 Jan just after alpha 1 perhaps
<Akxwi-dave> thats what i was thinking doing it a week before ist call
<flocculant> we can always move things about - 1 of the 3 pkg test calls is the run-once/optional stuff - we could bring that back then move the 4th priority call forward a week
<Akxwi-dave> leave it with me I'll see what I can come with..   oh and if i try to acess the xubpktesting it says I dont have permission.. :-)
<flocculant> oh meh you need adding to the group https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad join that team
<flocculant> eventually someone will add you then you can use the pad(s) 
<flocculant> we use them a lot here 
<flocculant> pleia2: can add you probably - don't know where to go ask anymore tbh 
<Akxwi-dave> :-)
<Akxwi-dave> flocculant, bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/menulibre/+bug/1515184  doesn't seem to affect the MenuLibre on 15.10 with latest packages installed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1515184 in menulibre (Ubuntu) "Crash when selecting a category in a new entry" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Akxwi-dave> Just ran the testcases on both 16.04 and 15.10.. only getting the crash on 16.04
<flocculant> that's useful for bluesabre 
<Akxwi-dave> both have the ppa's installed and uptodate
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> add it to the bug for him :)
<Akxwi-dave> will do
<Akxwi-dave> bug report on Launchpad updated
<knome> krytarik, silly one
<knome> krytarik, i would probably keep the icon and the regular text as we have now
<knome> krytarik, the logo becomes unreadable after a while
<knome> krytarik, in the latest updates, when resolution is <600, we're now *always* showing the compact format
<flocculant> bluesabre: <balloons> flocculant, the first task taken was to run the manual tests for xubuntu :p
<flocculant> back to fighting grub 
<pleia2> flocculant: I only could while on the CC, can ask in #ubuntu-community-team now for folks who can approve re: etherpad
<pleia2> but someone should approve pretty quickly either way
<flocculant> pleia2: okey doke - I did think that ^^ 
<flocculant> and I forget things asap nowadays :)
<pleia2> hehe
<flocculant> he needs to sort it anyway - we all use pads often :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: awesome
<flocculant> bluesabre: I thought so too :)
<knome> hello pleia2 :P
<pleia2> o/ knome 
<knome> pleia2, maybe you saw - or maybe not - some updates for website pushed into branch, also visible on the staging site
<knome> pleia2, http://tracker.xubuntu.org/#tab-details/text=(r+spec=xubuntu-x-web+sort=assignee+sortdir=asc
<pleia2> ok
<slickymasterWork> bluesabre, I confirmed bug 1511053
<ubottu> bug 1511053 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "orca is not preinstalled, accessibility settings do not install it" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511053
<knome> wondering if there is something else we want fixed with this batch of updates
<slickymasterWork> knome I was thinking that we could start to address the move of the translations of the ubiquity slideshow right after new year
<slickymasterWork> is it ok with you
<slickymasterWork> ?
<knome> slickymasterWork, yes, that works for me, or you can start working on it now as well
<slickymasterWork> I won't have much time availabke until then, but if I manage to, I will
<slickymasterWork> * available 
<bluesabre> slickymasterWork: great, thanks.  I'll tackle that today
<slickymasterWork> you're welcome bluesabre :)
<pjotter> I was having a little chat with knome on #xbuntu just a while ago about light-locker
<pjotter> Light-locker is giving me so many problems with my hardware, that I have given up trying to fix it and just deinstall it.
<pjotter> For a casual user like myself, it seems that light-locker doesn't actually add much to the system. Much of the things you can do with light-locker, you can also do in power-manager.
<pjotter> Is this true? And can I safely remove light-locker?
<pjotter> I have been running Xubuntu for quite some time without light-locker and it seems to work fine now.
<Unit193> Lock your computer â Ctrl+Alt+F7
<pjotter> I quess my question is: Why is light-locker in the distro?
<pjotter> Especially as it causes a lot of problems with many computers (I have seen).
<pjotter> Also, why add an application to the system that (in large) overlaps functionality with another application?
<pjotter> maybe I'm missing something here?
<Unit193> As I said, try locking your computer then hitting Ctrl+Alt+F7.
<pjotter> Unit193: That didn;t do much I'm afraid. What is it supposed to do?
<Unit193> Seems you logged out?  Anywho, when you use  dm-tool switch-to-greeter, as locking should do now, you can easily get back into your session without entering the password.  That's because lightdm isn't a lock screen, light-locker is.
<pjotter> My problems with lightlocker are not so much with how it functions. But when lightlocker is installed, after 10 minutes the screen goes blank. No matter what I set in light-locker. It seems light-locker settings are completely ignored on my system.
<pjotter> So what I do: I deinstall light-locker and set the appropriate settings (screen blanking etc) in power-manager.
<genii> Sounds like lightlocker might not actually be working at all and then dpms kicks in on the monitor
<pjotter> All I know is that everything works as expected when light-locker is removed
<pjotter> I don't really have a need for locking the screen so I figured I don;t loose much with light-locker gone.
<pjotter> From what I understand from knome, not many users experience these problems with light-locker. Maybe it's just my bad luck. I have installed Xubuntu on many different systems and on nearly all of them I had to disable light-locker to get the screenblanking to work. Could this be an issue that only effects amd64?
<pjotter> knome, can I pm you for just a sec?
<ochosi> late evening everyone
<pjotter> hi ochosi
<ochosi> hi
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-08
<bluesabre> hey ochosi 
<knome> hey bluesabre :P
<bluesabre> probably too late now
<knome> went to doc?
<bluesabre> hi knome 
<bluesabre> yup
<knome> what's up then?
<bluesabre> drainage causing all my issues, just needed some flonase and ibuprofen apparently
<knome> hmm
<bluesabre> though, after taking that, I've been sneezing snot rockets
<knome> lol
<knome> yes...
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-09
<Unit193> bluesabre: Do we want to try and get micahg to slip xfdashboard directly into Ubuntu repos for now?
<bluesabre> Unit193: is it stuck in NEW, or has it even been uploaded yet?
<Unit193> Second.
<bluesabre> yay
<bluesabre> Some things just move... a... bit... slowwwwwer
<ochosi> evening all
<knome> hello ochosi 
<ochosi> hey knome 
<ochosi> what's new?
 * knome shrugs
<ochosi> right :)
<bluesabre> evening ochosi, knome 
<knome> heya bluesabre 
<ochosi> o hey bluesabre 
<ochosi> how're things?
 * bluesabre shrugs
<bluesabre> dinner time, brb
<knome> lol
<knome> so we have started shrugging to everything
<ochosi> bed time, "brb"
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-10
<bluesabre> ochosi: nighty
<knome> bluesabre, any news on the wallpaper contest webapp?
<bluesabre> knome: hoping to make more progress tonight.. I wanted to get it done over the weekend but ended up being sick the whole weekend
<knome> excuses, excuses... ;)
<bluesabre> yup, I've got plenty of them
<flocculant> knome: any news on the wallpaper contest mail :p
 * flocculant shrugs
<bluesabre> flocculant: he may be waiting for my app to get done
 * bluesabre shrugs again
<Unit193> bluesabre: When you jumping to Xenial, anywho?
<bluesabre> Unit193: I usually don't jump to the dev release for a while. If things happen to break badly, can't accomplish anything
<bluesabre> I run the most recent release until beta with a vm of the dev release
<Unit193> Ah, so I'll end up jumping before you. :/
<bluesabre> probably
<flocculant> fortune favours the bold :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: and not sure why waiting for an app - if no-one bothers volunteering then any need for it :D
<flocculant> or is that hopefully fortune favours the foolhardy :p
<slickymasterWork> flocculant, are you accepting encryption tests on virtual machines?
<flocculant> no - we can't do anything yet
<flocculant> I just thought I'd ask for some sort of team view on it 
<slickymasterWork> oki doke
<knome> flocculant, i'm trying to figure out what bluesabre's app can do - that defines what kind of volunteers we need
<flocculant> right 
<knome> so it's kind of "blocked" now
<knome> i can ask for volunteers now, but i won't have any substance for them...
<knome> i mean, it's totally possible that the app does most of the work
<knome> and it probably should
<flocculant> well no
<knome> well yes ;)
<knome> like check the license - done by asking the person what the license is
<flocculant> because if there are no volunteers then it's just been a waste of time 
<flocculant> so no ;)
<knome> right... no to that
<knome> i guess so
<knome> i'll look into that later today then
<knome> but i'll likely need to look at it again then :P
<flocculant> I just wonder if finding out if there's any actual volunteers informs the rest of it - given last time 
<flocculant> that's all I mean
<knome> well if the app does what i imagine it does
<knome> there is very little need for volunteers after all
<flocculant> personally I don't have a horse in the race as any wallpaper isn't likely to be something I would use 
<knome> so little that in the worst case scenario, i'll just sign up for all that
<knome> but of course i'd like to get other people involved
<knome> even sharing a tiny bit of work
<knome> because potential future contributions
<flocculant> knome: so at the end of the day if people aren't putting things forward - then ... 
<knome> then we'll just do it with the team
<flocculant> which isn't what the plan was ;)
<knome> i don't remember the nick from the top of my head, but somebody here said they could help
<flocculant> yea - someone was in here talking about it 
<knome> no, but my plan is always to get N new contributors contributing to xubuntu every cycle, but still i/we end up releasing it and doing all the work even if we don't meet that target
<knome> so i don't consider this as an "contribute or it won't happen" kind of situation
 * flocculant shrugs now :p
<knome> it's more like a "contribute and we can make it happen, if you don't, then we can't guarantee anything"
<flocculant> my cycle artwork interest quota is almost used up - just need to find an elliptical circle :)
<knome> sorry, i've lost some of my faith in people contributing and will automatically always think how much of the work i could do myself :P
<flocculant> funnily enough ...
<knome> yeah, i know, i end up doing a lot myself
<knome> but that's ok, at least i know it in advance
<knome> and if somebody else does X, that just means more time to work on other things
 * knome shrugs
<knome> fwiw, pjotter has promised to look at drawing a xerus for us
<knome> so that's one potential new contributor
<knome> and to artwork too
<flocculant> nice :)
<bluesabre> hey knome
<flocculant> akxwi has been a breath of fresh air for me for sure 
<bluesabre> what all would you like the app to do? We take relevant information during the submission process, and contact them using lp if something is incorrect
<bluesabre> grabbing author, license, url
<bluesabre> voting wouldn't come until quite a bit later, but it will compare every wp to each other and the one with the most +1s across all voters wins
<bluesabre> er, the ones with the most +1s
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> heh
<bluesabre> its a pretty basic app... handles submission/uploads, view existing, request info, and vote
<bluesabre> lp login will probably be the hardest part
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> also planning to handle embedding the metadata, looked a bit into that, seems reasonable
<bluesabre> so what else would be good to have?
<knome> bluesabre, basically just asking about the license means the license is ok, because they have agreed to the terms
<knome> bluesabre, but of course we will ask the winners if they intended that license
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> and if they provide the url, we can potentially validate it ourselves
<knome> i would just go with radiobuttons
<knome> (x) CC-BY (or whatever license we would like
<knome> ( ) Something else, what ____
<bluesabre> k
<knome> if they don't mention something else, we can consider it validated
<knome> pleia2 also said it's fine to pre-select CC
<knome> as long as people are clearly given the choice
<knome> or we can select none by default
<knome> and make the user select one
<bluesabre> I have most of the framework, just a matter of setting up the views... so a matter of having time in front of my computer to finish cranking it out
<bluesabre> yup
<knome> we can do it with some short descriptions too
<flocculant> wouldn't select none by default and insist on a choice be sensible? 
<knome> "By selecting this, you give us (and everybody else) this, this and this permission..."
<flocculant> s/sensible/logical 
<bluesabre> yeah, can just make a non-none required to submit
<knome> i don't think that's legally required, and i'm not a lawyer
<bluesabre> or
<bluesabre> -select one- OR enter blah
<knome> bluesabre, let me draw you a very quick draft
<bluesabre> alrighty
<knome> oh shoo
<knome> got to go
<knome> bbiab
<knome> will send the draft then
<bluesabre> k
<knome> bluesabre, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/wallpaper-contest/licence-draft.png
<knome> consider all texts as placeholders
<knome> bluesabre, and here's a html/css imagination: http://temp.knome.fi/temp/xubuntu/wallpaper-contest/html-draft/
<knome> bluesabre, bit more there now :P
<flocculant> just in case anyone happens to boot with the daily - plymouth issue in vbox only it seems, got text till desktop - probably following all the plymouth updates in the last couple of days, didrocks is aware and will keep me posted
<slickymasterWork> got that today flocculant 
<flocculant> yep - I guessed you might have :)
<slickymasterWork> :)
<flocculant> I knew there were changes - but waited for a new image to look
<flocculant> don't see it in qemu apparently, don't see it on hardware for sure (or at least my h/w)
<Unit193> Poked slang.
<Unit193> 17:13 #ubuntu-devel: < slangasek> Unit193: I have not, sorry; it's in my queue to look at still
<bluesabre> knome: thanks
<knome> np
<knome> tell me if you need more help with the html side
<knome> /css
<bluesabre> knome: should be good for now, I'll poke you when I have to code somewhere for you to blow up
<knome> haha, good good
<knome> i was thinking some fancy artwork for the checkbox/radiobuttons
<knome> like show a big square, but when checked, lay a big X or V on it
<knome> that's really just for the flash though :D
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> shouldn't be too hard though
<knome> just make the real checkbox/radiobutton hidden and overlay artwork with js
<bluesabre> I'll or some fancy cssing
<bluesabre> -I'll
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> hmmright, css3 might support :checked
<knome> or sth
<knome> aha!
 * knome pokey
<bluesabre> :D
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-11
<knome> bluesabre, a very early WIP
<knome> bluesabre, well, a PoC really
<bluesabre> knome: http://i.imgur.com/rWO4Yvz.png same here
<knome> hmm
<knome> :P
<knome> looks like poop there
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> did you copy over the new files?
<knome> and the updated css too? :P
<bluesabre> I'm grabbing bits and pieces
<knome> haha
<knome> ok
<bluesabre> its on top of bootstrap
<genii> Why CC as default license and not GPL ?
<knome> it looks very corporate way to approach a dynamic project :P
<ali1234> genii: because GPL makes no sense for images
<genii> Hm
<ali1234> i mean unless your image is generated in pov or something
<genii> If it's SVG it contains instructions on how it's made, I think
<bluesabre> knome: using symfony and bootstrap, doing the project in a fun frameworky way
<knome> bluesabre, read: corporate
<bluesabre> nah
<knome> yeah
<knome> -e
<bluesabre> corporate around here is often code thrown at a wall until it works... then that guys leaves and a new guy throws more code at it
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> yeah, but corps always require people to use frameworks
<knome> which makes it all *look* really corporate
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> knome: https://i.imgur.com/H3BdXy8.png
<Unit193> !info xubuntu-artwork xenial
<ubottu> xubuntu-artwork (source: xubuntu-artwork): Xubuntu themes and artwork. In component universe, is optional. Version 15.12.1 (xenial), package size 12 kB, installed size 65 kB
<Unit193> >_<
<Unit193> flocculant: Speaking of which, plymouth work right?
<ochosi> bluesabre: looks nice that!
<flocculant> Unit193: sorry - missed that - plymouth work wrong
<Unit193> Yup.
<flocculant> seems to be everyone except ubuntu atm 
<Unit193> Yeeeep.  They changed plymouth not rightly.
<flocculant> yea - he's looking later 
<Unit193> OK, nice.
<flocculant> <didrocks> flocculant: I'm fixing/releasing Ubuntu Make and then, I'll work on this
<knome> bluesabre, better :P
<knome> bluesabre, except that apparently chrome doesn't handle flex quite the same way as ff
<flocculant> http://i.imgur.com/oK6obA9.png
<flocculant> daily after install
<knome> cool wallpaper
<flocculant> I was hoping for white
<slickymasterWork> ?! flocculant ?!
<flocculant> plymouth weirdness 
<slickymasterWork> oh, the color 
<slickymasterWork> yepas
<flocculant> and plymouth is weird, all those Devonians 
<bluesabre> knome: not using flex, using bootstrap and grids
<bluesabre> flocculant: stop breaking our login
<bluesabre> :P
<knome> bluesabre, start using flex then
<knome> grids are so last day
<knome> flexes allow you to forget js (even) when you want to make two containers next to each other (dynamically) the same height
<bluesabre> knome: I'll play with flex today/tonight
<knome> bluesabre, see the css source for my draft
<bluesabre> yup
<knome> bluesabre, you basically only need "display: flex;" for the container
<flocculant> bluesabre: you told me to find bugs :D
<bluesabre> flocculant: find bugs, not cause them >:D
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> nice to catch these things as soon as they happen and then be able to catch the person who did it 
<flocculant> makes everything a lot simpler :)
<flocculant> the text warning on first update is apparently a cosmetic issue, the black screen is too :p
<flocculant> but the black bit is being looked at :)
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> but I don't think we'll see it this side of Monday 
<ochosi> flocculant, Unit193: if you want me to mail someone about -core let me know! (if you can help with the content of the email too, that'd be great, i'm not sure about the status quo of this)
<MrTulias> hi
<MrTulias> I want to edit the link https://gist.github.com/e42845f3535ab1d2f1e7
<MrTulias>  in the list of the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Hardware. How can do it?
<flocculant> MrTulias: to be honest I'm not sure why people even bother doing that
<flocculant> if you do want to do it - don't edit the gist, rerun the command and get a new gist link I guess
<MrTulias> Ah, I thought this made things easier
<MrTulias> thanks
<krytarik> MrTulias: I take it you mean you want to *add* yourself with the link there - just click on "Login" at the top of the page, and have at it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Hardware?action=login
<flocculant> and good luck logging into the ubuntu wiki - especially for something no-one apparently uses :)
<MrTulias> I' ll keep the link and if necessary paste it
<vuk_> hello
<vuk_> I am trying to boot my Thinkpad L420 from USB with Xubuntu 15.10 in it, but it will not boot up on this laptop. It boots up fine in my other Thinkpad. Any idea why?
<vuk_> I get to the screen with the options "Install, Test without installing, etc", I select one of them, it splashes once, then it gets stuck there!
<vuk_> So annoying.
<genii> vuk_: Might be better to enquire in the support channel and not the developers channel
<vuk_> genii: thanks, will do
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-12
<mcs_> flocculant: ping
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-13
<flocculant> mcs_: pong
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-12
<tracker7> Hi
<tracker7> I am interested in contributing 
<tracker7> in QA
<tracker7> any one guide me in going around and contribute?
<knome> eh, too little time to reply
<akxwi-dave> noticed that myself.. :-0 was half way thru one when they loggoed off..
<knome> yeah
<knome> the first line should always be extremely short to avoid that...
<flocculant> like - !qa = don't run - give people time to respond
<flocculant> :p
<knome> or like
<knome> "hi"
<flocculant> [10:15:05] < xnox> flocculant, i know, i am working on it.                                                                balloons 
<flocculant> [10:15:08] < xnox> flocculant, sorry about that! 
<flocculant> bluesabre: re the upstart indicator bug thingy ^^
<flocculant> knome: or that :)
<bluesabre> flocculant, nice
 * flocculant was scared to update upstart this morning .... debian/upstart-xsessions: remove all but unity8 sessions, thus migrating all sessions to systemd and/or pre-upstart session management.
<bluesabre> oh boy
<flocculant> rebuilt iso - will make sure that works before I update locally ...
<flocculant> bluesabre: just zsyncing now - should get an install done before I wander off again
<flocculant> bluesabre: wish me luck ...
<flocculant> well that would have been better if I'd updated before rebooting - but it works still second time around
<bluesabre> flocculant, that's good at least
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> time to run - have a good day :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: not sure if you caught what I meant there :p upstart update didn't take 2 goes - I did cos I rebooted without updating :)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-13
<Unit193> Dowh, we lost the nice ~/.cache/upstart/startxfce4.log now. :(
<bluesabre> evening all
<Unit193> Howdy.
<bluesabre> flocculant, indeed, I misunderstood there
<bluesabre> hi Unit193!
<Unit193> Hrm, wasn't I going to nag you about something minor again? :P
<knome> good evening people
<flocculant> hi knome 
<knome> 'lo flocculant 
<knome> everything running well in the trackerland, eg. the times are up?
<flocculant> yup
<knome> great to hear
<knome> to both you and akxwi-dave; anything else you'd like to see tracker do for QA?
<flocculant> don't actually look much - not doing much more than hassle Sean with bugs ;)
<flocculant> I did fleetingly think about adding 16.04 to status
<flocculant> but given the amount of testing we get thought it rather ppointless
<akxwi-dave> same here at moment just  iso testing to make sure no major probs
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: and writing a mail to dev list re milestones :p
<akxwi-dave> yup.. better get that done... :-)
<flocculant> :D
<flocculant> point release isn't far off really - with xmas and new year looming
<akxwi-dave> actually I noticed that earlier, when checking it..  
<knome> i really plan to move everything in the tracker to release-based system, eg. you can have status for each release (easily) separately
<knome> and also, can easily have several releases visible/enabled in the tracker
<flocculant> not sure that's appropriate for more than lts's 
<knome> well there you go
<flocculant> anything really major for non-lts would only ever be sru 
<knome> currently that's not really "supported" :)
<flocculant> yea
<knome> but the thing is - once the new stuff is in place, it doesn't really matter if you want to track SRU stuff separately, as it's going to be so easy (tm)
<flocculant> and frankly I'm not sure how many people actually ever look at that page
<knome> i should look more, but since i've been kind of out of the loop/not contributing much, i haven't
<flocculant> outside of team
<knome> part of the reason i'm asking questions is to try to make it more useful for others as well
<flocculant> yea
<knome> it has good potential as it is now
<flocculant> might be worth asking outside 'team'
<knome> a bit more human text and not graphs and it can do much better
<flocculant> not that you need do that of course
<knome> sure, but that'd mean it would be nice if you had time to potentially put together new bits if something nice shows up
<knome> as it is now, i don't have time to do the changes i want that would help the team, so better not fill the TODO list ;)
<flocculant> the original idea being to let other people know easily if iso was a dud
<knome> too bad ubuntu wasn't accepted for GCI this time btw
<knome> that would have potentially meant more work on the tracker
<knome> but maybe i should try to poke matthew to hear if he wanted to work on the API
<flocculant> lol at time :p
<flocculant> as I said - bout the only thing which had crossed my mind was lts's 
<knome> sure
<flocculant> and that was fleeting ...
<knome> the thing is - one more of the benefits for storing data internally is the release-based approach
<knome> so it's kind of built-in already to the new code
<flocculant> :)
<krytarik> I'll mention that two weeks ago, I split off my improved Xubuntu splash image for CD Image from the doomed Core bundle: https://code.launchpad.net/~krytarik/debian-cd/xubuntu-splash/+merge/311982
<Unit193> Yet still doomed?
<krytarik> ..Apparently.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-14
<flocculant> krytarik: good surmising on the evidence available
<krytarik> lol
<flocculant> bluesabre: not sure what's going on now but ... http://i.imgur.com/JY5ACzm.png
<flocculant> music works elsewhere
<flocculant> also - better mention lack of clutter now that works (at least with mugshot)
<knome> Unit193, what's your assessment, will pitti's news affect anything in our world to be enough that we need to re-evaluate things?
<knome> Unit193, eg. do we need to seek to make new contacts with some of the core components or do you think they will just roll on as usual?
 * flocculant wondered similarly
<flocculant> bluesabre: further to parole - looking back had an update on gstreamer
<flocculant> this week, whole bunch of packages went to 1.10.2-1ubuntu1 
<flocculant> aah - totem also broken
<flocculant> if I remember I'll see if people in -desktop have seen similar
<flocculant> mmm totem works in ubuntu it seems
<flocculant> oooh clever :) ubuntu-bug totem asks questions - when I say it has problems playing some files it reports to gstreamer
<knome> pleia2, i think two of the main things we should do is the council article and the #lovexubuntu contest
 * pleia2 shows up to work on things and stuff
<knome> you probably noticed my idea on the -contacts list about those t-shirts
<pleia2> knome: sounds good, I'll look at the lovexubuntu stuff first and make sure we have everything on the wiki that's supposed to be there
<pleia2> yeah, the women's ts
<knome> no, gabor wanted to send us 3 shirts
<pleia2> oh
<knome> so i asked if he could ship them to 3 different addresses
<flocculant> bluesabre: bug 1650036 bug 1650038
<knome> and he said it's fine
<ubottu> bug 1650036 in gstreamer1.0 (Ubuntu) "Some mkv files report error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1650036
<ubottu> bug 1650038 in parole (Ubuntu) "mkv files report gstreamer backend error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1650038
<knome> so if we want to spread them out...
<flocculant> evening knome pleia2 - have fun :)
<knome> flocculant, thanks ;)
<pleia2> knome: an etherpad for today would help my brain
<knome> pleia2, set up one
<pleia2> k
<knome> i'm looking at the mirrors issue first, poking with some results next
 * pleia2 sorts through -contacts email
<knome> did you set up a pad already?
<knome> if not, i'll do that now
<pleia2> http://pad.ubuntu.com/fbQWBVJyBy
<knome> what a rememberable url
<pleia2> we don't need to remember it :)
<knome> so both of the chinese mirrors say they have 1gbps, i'd trust them
<knome> LP says one of them is completely in sync and the other one is lagging behind on some
<knome> so we'll probably go with the one that is on sync for the main page
<pleia2> wfm
<knome> ok, mirror stuff done
<pleia2> I keep getting distracted, but I left a note in the pad under the website code thing
<knome> i noticed
<knome> one thing i really want to happen is download link lists that are created automatically
<knome> >__<
<knome> but that's for later
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> is the #lovexubuntu wiki page up-to-date?
<pleia2> that's what I'm working on now
<knome> oki
 * knome goes look at staging.x.o
<pleia2> oh yeah, I'm going to do the standard system upgrades on that now too
<pleia2> should probably boot it into a new kernel sometime soon too (maybe today?)
<knome> wfm
<pleia2> oh, I also need to see when we need to do a community funds request again, I think we're coming up on a year
 * pleia2 adds to the pad
<knome> yeah
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/release/16-04/
<knome> are those the press links you're looking after?
<pleia2> oh, yeah
<pleia2> hm
<knome> ;)
<pleia2> http://xubuntu.org/press/
<knome> i think i just moved them back then
<knome> yeah...
<knome> meh.
<knome> :)
<pleia2> that's what I was looking at and haz none
<knome> i know, we need that shortcode
<pleia2> so I was confused, and we need ones for 16.10
<knome> yup
<knome> just add the ones in the wp admin for 16.10
<pleia2> k, I will put in pad to do in a little bit
<knome> ok, so that shortcode is not working
 * knome goes look at the code
<pleia2> knome: no rush at all, but do let me know when there's a 10 minute window during which I can reboot the server
<knome> in 5 or so, i'll notify
<knome> ok, go ahead
<knome> brb
<pleia2> ok, rebooting it now
<pleia2> Linux xubuntu-dev 4.8.6-x86_64-linode78 #1 SMP Tue Nov 1 14:51:21 EDT 2016 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
<pleia2> yay, all set
<knome> :)
 * knome reconnects
 * pleia2 goes back to hunting a particular lost #lovexubuntu submission
<knome> ugh
<pleia2> I could have sworn I blogged about the xubuntu cookie cutter
<knome> you tweeted at least
<pleia2> yeah, and G+
<knome> the link is there
<pleia2> oh! the tweet HAS the G+ link
<pleia2> phew, good, sorted :)
 * pleia2 looks for any stray hashtags now
 * knome cries a bit
<pleia2> knome I love you <3
 * knome <3 pleia2 
<knome> didn't i tell you to tell me not to do this?
<knome> eg. keep stuff unpushed in staging for too long?
<pleia2> yes
<pleia2> I am a bad enforcer
<knome> awwh :)
<knome> i would have loved you to enforce me
<knome> i mean...
<knome> :P
<knome> i'd rather not be in this place now ;P
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> and yeah, delta between prod and staging gets brutal
<Unit193> knome: Well he was the systemd guy, and with the migration to systemd user sessions...
<knome> ok, that thing is fixed
<knome> Unit193, yes - my question is, will there be a replacement for him (regardign systemd) and do we specifically need to be in touch with them, or shall we just expect things to work in the future
<Unit193> I wouldn't count on the latter.
 * pleia2 snorts
<pleia2> I mean, totally
<knome> Unit193, in that case, will you keep an eye on the replacement?
<Unit193> I have no idea who it's going to be, but if I see any news on that I'll give a shout.
<knome> thanks
<knome> that's pretty much what we can expect from anybody right now
<knome> pleia2, do we want the press archive to be latest-first?
<pleia2> knome: I think so
<knome> oki
<pleia2> most people want to read most recent
<knome> maybe
<pleia2> ok, just one more image to add to the lovexubuntu wiki and then I think we'll have everything
<knome> goodie
<pleia2> alright, I think that's it: http://wiki.xubuntu.org/marketing/projects/lovexubuntu/2016
<knome> mhm
<knome> how many winners did we say we'd pick?
<pleia2> sorry, tv repair person showed up, handling that ;)
<knome> np
<pleia2> "At the end of the competition, we will select 5 finalists. All finalists will receive a set of Xubuntu stickers from UnixStickers! We will pick 2 winners from the finalists who will also receive a Xubuntu t-shirt!"
<knome> oki
 * genii investigates this contest which could possibly pay in stickers
<knome> genii, it's kind of closed :P
<knome> pleia2, my favorites are:
<knome> https://twitter.com/Ornim/status/764006924811546624
<knome> and then the cookie cutters by Keith
<knome> and then the story by Dina Goldin
<knome> ok, phew
<genii> Darn
<knome> pleia2, ok, so
<knome> http://staging.xubuntu.org/press/ <-- created by a shortcode
<knome> http://staging.xubuntu.org/press/archive/ <-- created by a shortcode
<knome> do you feel like we need some more functionality here?
<knome> pleia2, RT #29426
<knome> so once the new code is pushed, i'll change some bits to magic shortcodes and everything is awesome
<knome> pleia2, so did you fiddle with the admin to add the release links already?
<pleia2> nope!
<pleia2> so I agree re: cookie cutters
 * pleia2 grumbles at etherpad
<knome> yep
<pleia2> I'll have to trawl through the tweets to find some favorites, but I would also like to select one of the stories (probably not Dina's, because I'm a prude)
<knome> pleia2, http://xubuntu.org/wp-admin/post-new.php?post_type=release_link
<knome> basically input your data, select a release from the release box and click publish
<knome> once we have our latest code up, this updates all appropriate lists with your link
<pleia2> This server could not prove that it is www.xubuntu.org; its security certificate expired 22 days ago.
<pleia2> grumble
<knome> huh
<pleia2> I'll submit a ticket abou that
<knome> that's a non-https link though
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-15
<knome> we have that one redirection stuff ticket open
<knome> and - note that it's not www.xubuntu.org, it's xubuntu.org :P
<pleia2> I know, unrelated discovery
<pleia2> oh, hm
<knome> but yeah, this is again too server for me to worry about it
<pleia2> so www.x.o expired, but x.o is fine
<knome> https still isn't default
<knome> but xubuntu.com redirects to https
 * pleia2 headscratch
<knome> www.xubuntu.com redirects to http
<pleia2> maybe I just have caching
<knome> i think i need to poke them tickets
<pleia2> I'll poke around this later and submit something if it's all still broken
 * pleia2 adds note to etherpad
<knome> updated RT #26794
<knome> ok, so what next?
<knome> should we figure out the other #lovexubuntu winner?
<knome> and the finalists too
<pleia2> I put a todo list in the etherpad
<knome> i noticed
<pleia2> trying to order food now because I haven't eaten recently
<knome> mhm
<pleia2> almost forgot about council blog post, added to pad
<knome> ugh
<knome> :)
<knome> i'll look into that in a bit
<pleia2> anyone find any other 16.10 links? https://xubuntu.org/release/16-10/
<pleia2> ah, there's http://news.softpedia.com/news/xubuntu-16-10-released-includes-xfce-packages-built-with-gtk-plus-3-technologies-509273.shtml too
<knome> well, there are some results not listed there when you google "xubuntu 16.10 review", but i'm not sure how far that way we are willing to go
<knome> wait, no
<knome> they are the same review
<knome> sigh at aggregating sites
<pleia2> heh, yeah
<knome> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkWE8ZHacNE
<knome> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ3gT8zcFBk
<pleia2> not so keen on videos
<knome> well...
<knome> that's the media of the day
<pleia2> get off my lawn
<knome> :)
<knome> i think it would be most beneficial to have reviews and links that are useful for the users
<knome> but that would mean watching or at least glancing the videos
<pleia2> if someone wants to watch one and tells me it's good, I'd consider it
<knome> i know
<pleia2> alright, these three links are really the only ones I can find
<knome> oki
<bluesabre> flocculant, thanks for the bug reports (and link to testable file)!
<knome> pleia2, just to get it recorded - one thing we considered/discussed about the council article was putting some "human" in it - i still think that'd be a good idea (along with AUA and potential team member interviews/etc)
<knome> so if you have an idea what that could be, that would be awesome
<pleia2> thanks, I'll think about it
<knome> i could then put in my part of it and kick the other council members to do it as well
<knome> ok, and now sleepy sleepy
<knome> night!
<pleia2> night :) thanks!
<knome> and thanks to you too for everything :)
<knome> -->
<pleia2> tweeted about the new Chinese mirrors being added
<pleia2> confirmed that we received the dev.xubuntu.org VPS funding from the community fund in December of 2015, so I've placed a new request to cover 2017
<flocculant> bluesabre: welcome - I'll ping someone in -desktop bout the totem one - pretty confident if that fixes the one I really care about will too - I know that parole was working prior to gstreamer update
<flocculant> pleia2 knome - re community funding - I noticed there are now 2 ubuntu flavours asking for donations outside the normal method, mate and this budgie thing - remind me why we don't?
<pleia2> flocculant: I didn't know here was a way outside the normal method
<pleia2> german ancestry, I like following the rules :)
<flocculant> lol
<flocculant> seems like some flavours bend them :p
<pleia2> heh
<pleia2> what do they do?
<pleia2> I've tried going outside the fund entirely and requesting things directly from the hosting companies (got a Linode for ubuntu-us.org that way) but they're being a bit more restrictive these days
<pleia2> we're not a non-profit, etc
<flocculant> budgie have patreon and paypal options for users to donate, mate do similar, https://ubuntu-mate.org/donate/
<pleia2> I'm not willing to put myself at risk legally when it comes to holding funds like that
<pleia2> might be easier for someone outside of the US
<flocculant> not asking anyone to do that - just mentioning it again :)
 * pleia2 nods
<flocculant> I guess that would be something that Xubuntu Council should mull over \o/
<pleia2> yeah make them do it!
 * pleia2 sleep &
<flocculant> knome bluesabre ochosi ^^
<pleia2> but in the meantime, I did submit the request and it should be fine
 * pleia2 goes for real now
<flocculant> [1]yup - thanks pleia2 
<flocculant> bluesabre: mentioned in -desktop 
<knome> pleia2, http://xubuntu.org/press/
<knome> pleia2, uses shortcode
<knome> flocculant, ack
<knome> pleia2, http://xubuntu.org/press/archive/ too, though i notice the order is wonky
<knome> meh :)
<knome> oh well, i'll get that fixed for next
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/release/16-04/
<knome> now with sidebar!
<knome> pleia2, please glance at  http://xubuntu.org/?p=4171&preview=true  once you have time and either ACK it or propose/do changes for publishing
<knome> bbl
<knome> pleia2, was toying a bit with this: http://staging.xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/
<knome> pleia2, to clarify, these lists are created automatically with a shortcode, using a internal database of mirrors (with URL templates where we replace the version number)
<knome> *an
<knome> so creating a new list for a new release is as easy as changing the shortcode
<knome> and adding a mirror (or deleting one) is as easy as adding a new post in wordpress
<knome> -- then all lists are updated
<knome> i also have two checkboxes; active (setting inactive means the mirror is essentially not showing up) and "main"/"not main", which controls whether the mirror in question is shown on the initial list of mirrors
<knome> bbl
<knome> pleia2, some more work with the release links -> http://staging.xubuntu.org/release/14-04/
<knome> pleia2, not completely satisfied with the organization of that yet, maybe i'll hide all direct download links first and only allow them to appear with a click
<knome> now sauna, bbl
<slickymaster> right knome 
<slickymaster> that means a need for a thighter watch
<knome> slickymaster, watch for what?
<flocculant> knome: thighter's
<knome> :P
<slickymaster> hi knome 
<slickymaster> the docs main branch
<knome> slickymaster, oh right, you're replying to ancient stuff :)
<slickymaster> oh wait
<knome> but yes, indeed
<slickymaster> well, the push rights is just for team members, so forget it
<slickymaster> didn't read it all the way through :P
<knome> sure, but it still means we don't want to let anybody in who is just starting to contribute
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> so it is tighter than it's now
<slickymaster> hm hm
<flocculant> knome: i THOGHT WE'D DONE THAT
<flocculant> oops
<knome> flocculant, WHAT?
<flocculant> the old tracker link
<knome> me too
<knome> but
<knome> that happens :)
<flocculant> yup :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [zesty] r626 Update the tracker description (and more importantly, link) ... (by Pasi Lallinaho)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [zesty] r627 Update the entity file with the new status tracker link.... (by Pasi Lallinaho)
<flocculant> I thort we'd done that :D
<pleia2> knome: yay for press pages working again, thank you (even if archive ordering is wonky)
<knome> pleia2, archive ordering will be fixed in the next upload
<knome> pleia2, did you look at the NEW updates on staging?
<knome> pleia2, and do you think we want to start using them?
<knome> pleia2, ok, so i have another idea, which i literally just figured out i probably want to do
<pleia2> not yet, just got back from dr appointment so just settling in
<knome> pleia2, add a "Releases" (or sth similar) under "About", working as the "front page" for browsing the releases
<knome> pleia2, then move the "About and around" (this is under the Press page now) under "The community"
<knome> pleia2, and finally, make the screenshot page work much like the press page; we have the information to sort our screenshots based on releases as well
<knome> pleia2, yet another thing is potentially moving FAQ out of the menu structure - it hasn't been updated since august 2014 
<knome> i'm also kind of playing with the idea to make any and every place we mention a version number a link
<knome> with some JS obviously
<knome> but that's kind of.. for later
 * pleia2 catches up on backscroll first
<knome> sure
<pleia2> for normal humans the staging getxubuntu site doesn't look much different than the live one
<knome> indeed
<knome> so look at the mirror downloads section
<knome> and press the "full"/"all" links
<knome> and you'll notice a big difference
<pleia2> ah yeah, no more direct links to FTP/HTTP/Info
<knome> yeah
<knome> no more FTP to be exact
<knome> the big change here is
<knome> this is dynamically created
<knome> the markup for the new one is simply:
<knome> [mirrors release=14-04]
<pleia2> does anyone even use ftp to download these?
<knome> they can get to that from the info
<pleia2> right
<knome> the info shows up when you open the full list
<knome> but anyway
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> you like this?
<pleia2> yep, it's good
<knome> ok
<knome> next thing is a release page
<knome> eg. http://staging.xubuntu.org/release/14-04/ vs. http://xubuntu.org/release/14-04/
<knome> first, forget the sidebar
<knome> i just haven't set that up on staging
<knome> but on staging, you can see the torrent links
<knome> those are new fields that we can insert (and update) per release
<pleia2> I liked the new sidebar :)
<knome> yes, that will stay
<knome> and we have the same direct/mirror downloads list here
<pleia2> k
<pleia2> yeah, I think this is better
<knome> but i'm not sure about how it's presented currently
<knome> maybe we should make it a link in the release links section
<pleia2> articles and things are great, but I think what most people will want is download info
<knome> then when that's clicked, pop up the direct download list
 * pleia2 shrugs
<knome> alternatively, we could drop the torrent links above the direct downloads like the get xubuntu page
<knome> ...but i tried that, and it looked weird without any text around the buttons
<pleia2> ah, hm
<knome> so maybe the answer is to move the description above the codename etc.
<pleia2> perhaps
<knome> but yeah, this is totally automatized too
<knome> so one more thing you'll notice here is the online doc link
<knome> IF WE WANT
<knome> i can create a shortcode
<knome> that lists all of the non-EOL, non-released releases that have a docs link
<knome> think: the help & support page list
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/help/ <- the list in the green box
<knome> then just s/The supported releases are:/The documentation for supported releases can be found via the following links:/ or stjh
<knome> so basically automatize everything that is related to releases - or at least make us update it only once
<pleia2> I think that makes sense
<knome> yes, good
<knome> so i have to write that - np though, it's a trivial piece of code
<pleia2> thank you :)
<knome> so now that we have this sorted out, what about the new releases main page?
<pleia2> which one is that?
<knome> none yet
<knome> i was thinking: list all non-EOL releases, LTSs first, newest first
<knome> at least the release number and codename, maybe the description
<knome> and a link to the release page
<knome> that might be enough
<knome> and that would obviously share the saem sidebar as the release pages
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> sounds good
<knome> you probably read the part about the maintenance of mirrors, but it will be super easy after this upload
<knome> like, something is down, you can either delete it for good or mark inactive
<pleia2> ooh, inactive
<knome> and you can check/uncheck mirrors to be shown/not shown on the initial list
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> that said, we might want to look to make that a little smaller
<knome> the new china thing for example, it's only a 100Mbps server
<knome> also, do we want to duplicate UK
<knome> etc.
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> but again, that's just checkboxes in wp-admin
<pleia2> okie
<knome> ok, i'll stitch the not yet done pieces together tonight and then file another ticket to get that up
<knome> then we need some initial form work after which we are ready to go
<pleia2> no problem
<knome> also, i wrote a blog article about this
<knome> but since we are moving so fast, i'll update that to say we have it all now rather than "we might have something later"
<knome> but you might want to glance at that too as i mentioned ;)
<pleia2> I'm on the east coast next week, but I am not actually going to be super busy, still jobless and mostly just going there to hang out and spend evenings with friends+family :)
<pleia2> sure
<knome> i will literally have this ready your today
<pleia2> oh ok
<pleia2> I still need to review the council blog post
<knome> most of the stuff is ready already on staging
<knome> i just wanted your input before pushing to branches
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> http://staging.xubuntu.org/release/14-04/#show-all
<knome> different order
<pleia2> that's better, intro first
<knome> pleia2, http://staging.xubuntu.org/help/
<knome> in production, we bold LTSs, is that needed?
<knome> in production, we also list here how long releases are supported. needed?
<pleia2> I liked the green
<pleia2> no bold though
<knome> oh meh :D
<knome> you're focusing on the wrong things
<knome> the green will be there
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> I like listing how long they are supported, people are ALWAYS confused
<knome> oki
<pleia2> (because 5 year Ubuntu lts)
<knome> i'll figure out how to do that then
<pleia2> ty
<knome> oki, look now
 * pleia2 thumbs up
<knome> pleia2, aaand here: http://staging.xubuntu.org/about/releases/
<knome> can haz any content between page title and the release blobs
<knome> and will have the "releases" sidebar, where you can dump more
<pleia2> geez, how many of these releases page do we have
<knome> this and one for each release :P
<pleia2> well ok :)
<pleia2> I guess I was also thinking about the download page
<knome> yes
<knome> then we have the list on the docs page
<knome> but that's useful repetition
<knome> besides, download page is still manual
<pleia2> agreed, just making sure we don't get out of hand
<knome> we don't list two LTSs there for example
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> no, i think this is really needed because currently it's all just really meh
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> there's no easy way to discover these pages
<knome> the release pages, that is
<knome> *i* know how to find them
<knome> but it's always meh
<knome> (go to blog, find the links in the sidebar)
<knome> (yes, that's not where the usual user would look)
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> http://staging.xubuntu.org/about/releases/
<knome> lorem ipsum there just for proving concept
<knome> we probably want to say stuff like xubuntu is released every 6 months and lts every 2 years, support lengths, here you can see all of the supported releases
<knome> and visit their release pages for lots more
<pleia2> yeah, just so long as the text doesn't need updating much
<knome> nope
<knome> just something generic
<knome> huh, deja vu
<knome> weird :)
<knome> ok, RT ticket filed
<knome> screenshot thingy not yet done
<knome> but that's minor imo
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> huh
<knome> that was a sprint too
<pleia2> what was?
<knome> the above ^
<pleia2> (lunch arrived, munching and then will for real focus on  council blog post)
<knome> :)
<pleia2> having a hard time being creative about this council article, though it totally deserves it
<knome> feel free to just delete etc
<knome> pleia2, still not feeling creative?
<pleia2> distracted again :(
<pleia2> I think "resolutor" is a made up word
<knome> :)
<knome> aren't all words made up?
<pleia2> yeah, silly humans
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-16
<knome> pleia2, mm, that looks good
<pleia2> digging up some links to include too
<pleia2> then I'll email the three council members to get them to answer the questions ;)
<knome> hehe
<knome> maybe just ask them to reply on the pad
<pleia2> yeah sure
<knome> and maybe private mails
<knome> otherwise you get all kinds of "council members" adding their answers
<pleia2> I'm sending a private email directly
<knome> goodie
<pleia2> will give y'all a chance to read the article too ;)
<knome> hehe
<knome> i would probably word the last question a bit differently
<knome> eg. "tell us a bit of yourself" instead of "...wish to share"
<knome> but the question is better than "tell us about yourself", so you'll have to fix my wording further :P
<knome> o hai bluesabre 
<knome> oh man, etherpad
<pleia2> I want to keep it a question
<knome> yes
<bluesabre> hi knome, pleias
<bluesabre> 2
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> :)
<pleia2> ok, emailed knome, bluesabre and ochosi 
<knome> ta
<bluesabre> thanks pleia2 
<pleia2> sure thing
<knome> oki, time to go
<knome> ttyl
<pleia2> night knome 
<flocculant> bluesabre: at a guess nothing's likely to happen this side of next year with gstreamer and that bug 
<knome> pleia2, new code stuff in production and all new stuff in use, eg. no more manual updating of stuff \o/
<krytarik> Stuff! \o/
<knome> krytarik, yeah, like updating download mirror lists with endless stuff
<pleia2> knome: yay, congrats
<knome> thanks
<knome> and to you too :P
<knome> ok, bbl
<knome> pleia2, https://xubuntu.org/?p=4171&preview=true <-- with changes
<knome> pleia2, also, was thinking about moving system requirements under help & support
<knome> pleia2, but i'm not sure
<knome> maybe not
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-11
<ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1719209
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1719209 in firefox (Ubuntu) "firefox opens nautilus inside XCFE desktop" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ali1234> i have seen this happening recently
<ali1234> looks like its outside of xubuntu's control
<ali1234> up to ubuntu-desktop or firefox to come up with a solution
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-12
<slickymasterWork> LP 1731905
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1731905 in xfce4-notifyd (Ubuntu) "xfce4-notifyd assert failure: *** Error in `/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/xfce4/notifyd/xfce4-notifyd': double free or corruption (fasttop): 0x000055c6304823b0 ***" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1731905
<slickymasterWork> ochosi, flocculant, bluesabre ^^^
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: noted. will have to try to set up a 32bit system so i can debug that properly i guess
<slickymasterWork> :)
<slickymasterWork> I'll set up a 32-bit system tomorrow and will report back
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-notifyd 0.4.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-notifyd-0-4-1-released-tp50263.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
<ochosi> bluesabre: lol, gtk-theme-config still has references to the unico engine
<ochosi> bluesabre: did we maintain it here or elsewhere? https://github.com/satya164/gtk-theme-config
<ochosi> oh, it's here ofc https://code.launchpad.net/~gtk-theme-config-maintainers/gtk-theme-config/trunk
<ochosi> now that LP supports git i would really prefer to use it there too...
<ochosi> holy crap, that gtk-theme-config code is so bad...
<ochosi> i really don't know how to touch it "efficiently" (i.e. without rewriting it)
<ochosi> i mean seriously: 130 lines long string variables...
<bluesabre> ochosi: yup!
<ochosi> the main problem that i see with gtk-theme-config is that it's really unmaintainable in its current state
<ochosi> how is one supposed to edit the css there
<ochosi> that's simply terrifying
<ochosi> plus instead of toggling a single gtk.css file with "include" lines for panel, menu etc it always writes the whole file when updating..?
<ochosi> oh dear...
<ochosi> maybe we should rewrite it in python
<bluesabre> Some parts of the css support might not have been fully supported by gtk3 when satya first made it
<ochosi> would be easier to maintain, and would make interaction with the text files easier
<ochosi> yeah definitely
<ochosi> i mean what we need is a current version of greybird/adwaita as starting point
<ochosi> ideally we'd keep the sass in the repo and then just compile it for each release
<bluesabre> Sounds sane
<ochosi> so that there is no dependency for ppl who install it
<ochosi> but so that the code is maintainable
<bluesabre> brb
<ochosi> bluesabre: ok, i think i at least have a concept of how to continue, we probably should discuss whether to stick to vala or whether to rewrite in python...
<bluesabre> ochosi: would probably be pretty easy to rewrite in python
<bluesabre> the vala code is not the worse thing
<bluesabre> but it is a pain to tweak
<knome> theoretically python might be something i might help maintain
<knome> i've been doing some python ;P
<ochosi> it's possible that we will have to step away from the "highlight color" feature
<ochosi> not sure it can still work
<knome> huhu?
<ochosi> with gtk3
<knome> eg. the only one that is useful?
<ochosi> it will only work with themes that have been "fixed" to work it with
<ochosi> all themes that are sass/scss based have all the color values hardcoded in the compiled css
<ochosi> before there were global symbolic color names
<knome> mm, true
<ochosi> and gtk-theme-config was using that to swap them out
<knome> :(
<ochosi> now you would basically have to regenerate the theme, just with different color values
<knome> yes
<ochosi> we could do a greybird-theme-config
<knome> meh
<ochosi> or an adwaita-theme-config
<knome> i mean, yay...
<ochosi> but nothing that will generically work
<knome> could it be pluggable to gtk-theme-config, eg. just appear there if the theme you use supports it?
<ochosi> not sure if we can easily find out if the theme (still) supports these color values
<ochosi> in gtk2-land the highlight color will continue to work
<ochosi> but that doesn't really help us much
<knome> yeah but it's gtk2
<knome> yes
<ochosi> so if we don't care about the panel (because its bg color can be set from the prefs dialog) and the menus i would say we should drop gtk-theme-config
<knome> the menus... meh
<ochosi> unless we find another way (that i currently can't think of) to change the highlight color
<knome> i mean it's fine to be able to edit the colors i guess
<knome> highlight color is the thing i want gtk-theme-config for
<knome> it's the only thing i have enabled
<ochosi> but it doesn't work anymore for greybird in gtk3 for you, does it?
<knome> i have noooo idea
<ochosi> what is possible is this:
<knome> you are correct
<knome> it does not work for gtk3
<ochosi> take adwaita's scss, chop it down to every :selected selector and then add a "background-color: blah;" line to each of those as skeleton
<ochosi> that would still make for one homungous file, but it would probably work
<knome> heh
<ochosi> but it really means: overriding every widget in the theme
<knome> yep
<ochosi> not sure what that does to performance or if gtk doesn't care if you overload your theme with a second theme
<knome> mmeh
<knome> yeah
<knome> try it?
<ochosi> it's not like chopping up the original scss is not a lot of (potentially useless) work
<knome> yeah i know...
<knome> i mean
<ochosi> i think i'd rather focus on more important things, like pushing out a long-needed xfpm release
<knome> by trying it, i mean we could probably try doing "another css file" that is essentially the same as the first one
<knome> and it should affect performance (close to) as much as if it changed everything, right?
<knome> *if* it has any noticeable performance hit
<bluesabre> Shouldn't have a performance hit
<knome> re: greybird-theme-config, that should just be a script that builds greybird from sass and creates a new theme with a new color
<knome> eg. greybird-red-like-rudolphs-nose
<knome> then you could switch to that
<knome> and you could have X variants all at the same time
<knome> i might or might not have my own benefits in mind when i say that
<knome> ...but that's how it should be :P
<ochosi> if you want to build greybird you need to have all those ruby depends installed
<ochosi> so meh
<knome> who cares?
<knome> :P
<knome> isn't it more flexible that way anyway?
<knome> or is greybird using highlight colors as is, eg. 0% transparency and no variations?
<ochosi> i think it would work
<ochosi> but it would only work for greybird
<knome> yes, i understand
<ochosi> anyway, i dunno
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> bluesabre: what's your take? should we really try to do the "strip down adwaita to certain selectors" approach or just drop gtk-theme-config for 18.04?
<knome> we've kind of been drumming for it
<knome> so it would be a shame to just drop it from that POV
<ochosi> we've been drumming a long time ago
<bluesabre> ochosi: I think if we can create an adwaita-compatible version of it, it supports our minimum needs
<knome> ochosi, i understand, but people do not like to lose things they've been once given
<ochosi> then they need to get involved and fix things :)
<knome> i'm not defending "them" :)
<bluesabre> if we wanted to have some fun, we could make a greybird theme customizer on shimmer.o :)
<ochosi> humm, tbh i already see issues with the approach i mentioned
<knome> .o?
<ochosi> a lot of places contain variants of the selected_bg_color
<bluesabre> https://shimmerproject.org/
<knome> lol
<bluesabre> You might have seen that site before
<knome> like use all of the resources xfce is begging for running some sp.org errands?
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> just write a python script that depends on greybird build deps
<ochosi> so the theme will look very flat after having gtk-theme-config's color applied
<knome> and get on with it ;)
<knome> ochosi, yeah, that's what i thought
<ochosi> and in that sense it will be an ugly solution
<ochosi> or alternatively we take the shades of adwaita
<ochosi> but then it may suck with other themes (especially dark ones)
<bluesabre> We can also use Adwaita's dark base theme
<knome> how would the config app know if the user is using a dark theme or not?
<knome> another knobby knob?
<bluesabre> yeah
<knome> meh :)
<bluesabre> or detect fg color
<ochosi> argh
<ochosi> that is bound to fail
<knome> yeah, argh
<ochosi> a switch is definitely better
<bluesabre> argv
<ochosi> but anyway, i think it'll be a lot of work
<knome> sure
<ochosi> and it's rather low on my personal priority list
<ochosi> anyway, sleepytime
<bluesabre> Could start making a list of things new contributors want to mess with
<knome> just do it with greybird
<bluesabre> Somewhere that is easy to find
<ochosi> knome: that'll be just as much work. then i'd rather do it with adwaita. you can do it too btw, all we need is the chopped down css file
<knome> yeah...
<knome> i'll consider
<ochosi> anyone who knows what a :selected selector is can do it
<ochosi> ideally you chop down the scss file
<ochosi> it'll be less work than the css
<ochosi> and more maintainable
<knome> yep
<ochosi> anyway, nighty!
<knome> night :)
<bluesabre> happy to help with that once we've got a base s(css) file to play with
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi
<bluesabre> knome: when do we want to kick off the contest?
<knome> i'm in the process of moving the code of the current plugin into a slightly different format
<knome> eg. submissions happen from the frontend
<knome> i'd still probably make people log in
<knome> i'm also making sure we can have multiple contests at a time
<knome> which we couldn't do previously
<knome> fwiw, that part is taken care of already
<bluesabre> knome: very nice
<knome> so i'd say january first
<knome> or sth :P
<bluesabre> Sounds good to me
<bluesabre> Nice way to start the year
<knome> i'll need a few more sessions of coding to get it finished
<knome> basically everything is ready except voting
<bluesabre> Maybe with an announcement towards the end of the year
<knome> but since it'll use very much the same code, it's mostly a copy-paste job
<knome> then some quick testing
<bluesabre> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-13
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: I think this would be a worthwhile patch for engrampa's packaging, interested in pulling it in on debian? http://paste.ubuntu.com/26176227/
<bluesabre> doesn't look like any trimming can be done for atril, and mate-calc is already trim
<bluesabre> but that should save us ~46mb, so that's good
<bluesabre> Unit193: I see the latest indicator-plugin on debian is using ayatana now... anything blocking us from merging that in?
<bluesabre> looks like there are a few other packages we can play catchup with if we wanted
<Unit193> bluesabre: One of them hard depends on at-spi2-core, it should only recommend that. And yes, with that I'm waiting to see what happens in Ubuntu.  Our version uses crappy systemd activation, but ayatana-indicator-* wouldn't need such things (I made sure with upstream.)  If we stick with indicator-* from Ubuntu, we'd need our patches, whereas if we use ayatana-indicator-* we can sync (not even 
<Unit193> merge.)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.13.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-4-13-2-released-tp50266.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
<bluesabre> ochosi: nice!
<bluesabre> Unit193: cool, not sure where the at-spi2-core dep is, not seen it
<Unit193> GNOME accessibility stuff, should be removable.
<ochosi> and pushed a new panel feature for xubuntu (finally)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.12.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-4-12-2-released-tp50267.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-14
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar-volman 0.9.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-volman-0-9-0-released-tp50275.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar-archive-plugin 0.4.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-archive-plugin-0-4-0-released-tp50276.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 18.04 - i386 - i386 built.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 18.04 - amd64 - amd64 built.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfburn 0.5.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfburn-0-5-5-released-tp50282.html (by Romain Bouvier)
<bluesabre> Nice
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-15
<Unit193> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2017-December/035871.html engrampa support+
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r538 Improve progressbar look in xfce4-panel... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: filed the a bug for engrampa's packaging https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/engrampa/+bug/1738395
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1738395 in engrampa (Ubuntu) "Drop unused dependencies for lighter installation requirements" [Undecided,New]
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/atril ...ouch.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4ui 4.13.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4ui-4-13-4-released-tp50283.html (by Romain Bouvier)
<flocculant> cyphermox: got an issue - possibly ubiquity - I have iso(s) in grub menu, previously I could install from there and it would umount /isodevice - not working in bionic lp 1734430
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1734430 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "isodevice unable to unmount when using loopback" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1734430
<flocculant> is that ubiquity or something else
<krytarik> flocculant: Do you use the '-l' option on unmounting there?
<flocculant> what you see is what I have :)
<flocculant> if you mean when in live - don't do anything at all - installer does the unmounting
<flocculant> and worked in all the options in the report except bionic :D
<flocculant> only got artful and bionic now btw
<krytarik> Aha - well, I always did the unmounting manually there for some reason. :P
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> krytarik: if you've got a few minutes - grab the daily - does it take forever to load for you? 
<flocculant> and anyone else in the team :p
<flocculant> seems to hang for 90 seconds ish here - waiting for some unnamed job ... 
<krytarik> flocculant: Sorry, this is my only machine, and no VM-capability. :P
<flocculant> no usb? 
<flocculant> I get the issue regardless of how I do it
<krytarik> The media isn't the issue, the rebooting while I'm using it is. :P
<flocculant> oh right - nvm then :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: you know the mate calc is possibly less useful than the gnome one - history in the gnome one 
<flocculant> tried out the gtk3 thunar - would the places plugin complaining about not finding file manager
<flocculant> and then I immediately assumed it's a /usr /usr/local issue ... 
<flocculant> too tired lol
<flocculant> och<tab> run off gibbering? 
<knome> aaand one more bit for the contest preparation done
<knome> soon, soon ..
<flocculant> nice one - thanks knome :)
<knome> basically the voting and vote lurking code is now migrated to the new base
<knome> now i just need to do some permission checks in the code
<knome> and we're ready to go
<flocculant> lovely :)
<knome> also, now we can run multiple contests at the same time if we want to
<knome> we really don't, but another thing this enables is keeping the old results "archived"
<flocculant> knome: so you got any idea why I'd be seeing worse fonts in the gtk3 thunar?
<knome> in a clean way
<flocculant> yup
<knome> hmh, nope
<knome> tbh i don't know too much about gtk3
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/DvwL1sG.png
 * knome looks
<flocculant> just to make sure it's not just my eyes
<knome> hmm.
<knome> that might be about subpixel order
<flocculant> in the left thunar in the sidebar only - look nastier than the right hand gtk2 one
<knome> in settings -> appearance -> fonts
<knome> not that i think you can change anything there
<flocculant> well I've not changed it in the 30 seconds between installing the gtk3 one :)
<knome> yes
<knome> but you can try changing the option there and see if you can "break" gtk2 in the same way
<flocculant> rgb
<knome> try another option
<flocculant> none appear to make any change at all :p
<knome> interesting
<knome> that should change the *gtk2* apps
<knome> because i can clearly see the difference here
<flocculant> well - I've still got gtk3 
<knome> check any gtk2 app
<knome> :)
<knome> this isn't thunar-specific after all
<flocculant> not seeing any changes anywhere ...
<knome> aha
 * knome shrugs
<flocculant> but I'd not know a gtk2 from a gtk3 one off the top of my head
<knome> but i still think this might be something around that
<flocculant> totally confused by that all tbh - unless I'm specifically aware lol
<flocculant> yup - okey doke
<knome> :)
<flocculant> I'll have a word with the other appearance guru at some point :D
<knome> yes
<flocculant> in the meantime O'll plough on with the gtk3 thunar now it does custom actions :p
<knome> yeah
<Unit193> flocculant: Yeah I saw that...
<flocculant> Unit193: you saw which :p
<Unit193> No history in mate calc.
<Unit193> Pretty sure I remarked that night we were looking into it.
<flocculant> oh right - yea, don't use it often - or the calc, but noticed it when I screwed up the gas bill ... Â£1239.76 - wut 
<flocculant> might have - was late and I was flagging
<Unit193> flocculant: Looking at it, https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/calculator-with-a-history/4147 is all I see, https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-calc/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue doesn't have it.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-16
<flocculant> pkexec fails with thunar now \o/
<Unit193> flocculant: grep path $(locate thunar.policy)
<flocculant> aaah
<flocculant> listed as /usr/local/bin
<flocculant> that's better - thanks Unit193 :)
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> almost there - custom action in thunar just opens another thunar 
<Unit193> Sure thing!
<flocculant> found that too - I screwed that one myself :p
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-17
<bluesabre> It is overly complicated to file a debian bug
<Unit193> May I introduce `reportbug` and `bts`?  Why at 5am?!
<bluesabre> Unit193: indeed, and even those are a pain to configure
<bluesabre> Even a crappy web interface would be better
<bluesabre> for the why, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/engrampa/+bug/1738395/comments/3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1738395 in engrampa (Ubuntu) "Drop unused dependencies for lighter installation requirements" [Undecided,New]
 * flocculant read that comment too
<bluesabre> Finally got one submitted via reportbug
<flocculant> that was quick then ...
<flocculant> now wait for 6 months and it to be too late :p
<Unit193> reportbug isn't so bad, once you get it configured.
<Unit193> https://bugs.debian.org/884587
<ubottu> Debian bug 884587 in engrampa "engrampa: Drop unused dependencies for lighter installation requirements" [Wishlist,Open]
<bluesabre> linked it
<Unit193> FYI, that still didn't explain 'why' ;P
<bluesabre> That's why I submitted it to ubuntu first since flexiondotorg was in the know
<Unit193> Nono, I mean '5am'
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> Couldn't sleep
<Unit193> Saaaame.
<bluesabre> Horrible pain in my leg right now makes movement crap
<bluesabre> moved in bed, woke up
<bluesabre> :\
<flocculant> ooh - that's a pain (sorry) :(
<Unit193> Quite unfortunate. :/
<Unit193> xfce4 4.12.4 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfce4-goodies 4.12.4 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfce4-panel 4.12.2-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfburn 0.5.5-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfce4-notifyd 0.4.1-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfce4-xkb-plugin 1:0.8.1-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> libxfce4ui 4.13.4-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfce4-panel 4.13.2-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<bluesabre> oh boy!
<Unit193> I...helped?
<ochosi> Unit193: nice work :)
<ochosi> looking forward to panel 4.12.2 in our LTS
#xubuntu-devel 2018-12-12
<jbicha> hi, do any of you experience bug 1798861 ?
<ubottu> bug 1798861 in gtk+3.0 (Ubuntu) "Tooltips flicker constantly in GTK3 applications" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798861
<jbicha> I could try cherry-picking the fix but it's difficult for me to do the cosmic SRU if I can't reproduce the bug on my computer
<brainwash> jbicha: it affects a fresh Xfce session
<brainwash> not Xubuntu session
<brainwash> https://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/tree/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xsettings.xml
<brainwash> the cursor size is set for the Xubuntu session
<brainwash> Xfce session is unset, and therefore 0 (default)
<jbicha> ok, I don't see it there either. I chose Xfce session from the login screen from the 18.10 live ISO in Virtualbox
<brainwash> well, the flickering may not occur, but I think the tooltip does not occur at all in this case
<brainwash> like, hover over a desktop icon
<brainwash> it should show a toolpit
<brainwash> tooltip
<jbicha> ok I can reproduce now. I had to create a new user to make sure I had a clean profile
<brainwash> basically, only ubuntu users who have installed plain Xfce are affected
<jbicha> did y'all set the cursor size as a workaround, or was that already there?
<brainwash> it has been always there
<brainwash> since 2010
<jbicha> do you have any estimate for how many users use plain Xfce? so how important this is to fix in an SRU?
<jbicha> right now, I'm thinking it's not important enough to worry about. It will be fixed in 19.04
<brainwash> it can be easily fixed on the user side
<brainwash> so, not very important I guess
<brainwash> not sure how easy it is to actually find the bug report + workaround
<jbicha> my question is how popular is plain Xfce for Xubuntu users?
<brainwash> for xubuntu users probably very unpopular
<brainwash> but quite some ubuntu users might use plain Xfce
<jbicha> ha
<jbicha> ok, I don't think I'm going to do the 18.10 SRU for this. Let me know if y'all disagree
<jbicha> hi, it's me again. Turns out that there was a gtk 3.24.2 release today so I'm going to try to SRU that so y'all may get the flicker fix after all
<ochosi> jbicha: that'd be awesome! also, there's that trayicon bug... https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/issues/1280
#xubuntu-devel 2018-12-15
<flocculant> morning
<flocculant> pleia2: could you a small thing for me please - lose me off the facebook thingy as admin. TIA :)
 * pleia2 tries to figure out how to use fb
<pleia2> flocculant: I think I succeeded ;)
<flocculant> pleia2: thank you :)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-12-16
<bluesabre> Unit193: poke
<bluesabre> Unit193: interested in apturl being in core, or just desktop?
<Unit193> bluesabre: I'm very open to input on it, my opinion would be the latter though as there's nothing to open at the moment.
<bluesabre> Alrighty, will go for desktop for now until somebody else asks for it :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Demote orage to supported @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=147b4c31b2c1abd1289532bfdcd80222628eeeb0 (by Sean Davis)
<Unit193> Oh, and there's been a few removals from Debian as of late.
<Unit193> I wondered the other day why doc-base was required too.
<bluesabre> yeah, I know mugshot got removed a few months ago... after waiting a while for a sponsored upload, deb packaging got a bump and my package was no longer ready to go... then work craziness hit for several weeks
<Unit193> I don't mean testing removals, didn't see mugshot actually.
<Unit193> Debian #916175, #916394, #916395, #916473
<ubottu> Debian bug 916394 in ftp.debian.org "RM: xfwm4-themes -- ROM; unmaintained upstream" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/916394
<ubottu> Debian bug 916395 in ftp.debian.org "RM: xfswitch-plugin -- ROM; unmaintained upstream" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/916395
<ubottu> Debian bug 916473 in ftp.debian.org "RM: xfce4-linelight-plugin -- ROM; unmaintained upstream" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/916473
<ubottu> Debian bug 916175 in ftp.debian.org "RM: xfce4-radio-plugin -- ROM; unmaintained upstream, low popcon" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/916175
<bluesabre> That seems fair
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Add apturl to desktop @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=682bd1eb5c41fc9e8d841a6fb8bf6fc1f97a22ca (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Add gimp to desktop @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=744d8414056004859a4b4c2fb7af6e40449c3fe4 (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Add libreoffice-impress to desktop @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=5f5bf96fcf3ec0ae14d5aaa4e6955d3fc68d89ab (by Sean Davis)
<Unit193> IOW: We'll want to drop from supported/etc.  PS: powerpc doesn't exist anymore.
<bluesabre> ? Drop from supported?
<Unit193> Those which were removed?
<bluesabre> OH
<bluesabre> I get it now
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: basically http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/ggy37Cd5X9/ for the powerpc cleanup, then?
<Unit193> I guess?
<bluesabre> :D
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Drop powerpc rules now that it's no longer supported @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=b0b87544c04bb69400a078ba7bac31b175ee2704 (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Drop xfwm4-themes from supported, removed in Debian (Debian #916394) @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=ca19ad111491c3e6d6d2b3017c26617d5bb6048a (by Sean Davis)
<bluesabre> looks like xfce4-quicklauncher-plugin is gone as of disco
<Unit193> Debian 909419
<ubottu> Debian bug 909419 in ftp.debian.org "RM: xfce4-quicklauncher-plugin -- ROM; unmaintained upstream" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/909419
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Drop xfce4-quicklauncher-plugin from desktop, removed in Debian (Debian #909419) @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=143b20c10e8f21ecd142e0d26ec23c57c3a99e90 (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Drop thunderbird from desktop for s390x @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=d5897189fd08fbe9e2ffb921cfd433c63e65a528 (by Sean Davis)
<jbicha> why do you want to add gimp? Debian GNOME is removing gimp from its default install
<knome> jbicha, i guess the argument is that it's still the best bitmap image editor out there, and there aren't really good light alternatives for it 
<bluesabre> Unit193: any thoughts on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1801629, or does that it seem like a good idea to add that to -core?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1801629 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-core needs to depend on cryptsetup and lvm2 or 'apt autoremove' will make a LUKS+LVM encrypted root partition non-bootable" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<jbicha> knome: ok, but do most people need a bitmap image editor?
<bluesabre> jbicha: in general, we have no image editing or printing functionality in Xubuntu without gimp, outside of a roundabout path via libreoffice.
<bluesabre> we have an image viewer only
<bluesabre> Created a rolling sru blueprint. This is a good place to link to bugs we need to resolve in previous stable releases (otherwise, they always show up as fix resolved) https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-sru
<brainwash> bluesabre: you want to fix the tv mode one in 16.04?
<bluesabre> I don't think that'd be a bad thing to do... I feel like we've meant to but it kept falling through the cracks
<bluesabre> Currently trying to dig up all the things we said we'd SRU and then didn't
<brainwash> the xfce4-settings package has support for 3 or 5 years?
<bluesabre> 3, it's in universe
<bluesabre> Alrighty, added everything that I had in recent lists
<bluesabre> Added one more
<bluesabre> bbl
<knome> jbicha, my vote would be against it, so don't ask me for rationales ;)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-12-09
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is ochosi
#xubuntu-devel 2019-12-11
<smkellat> Hey bluesabre, the RSS feed for your blog apparently changed and looks wrong on Planet Ubuntu.  You may want to fix that.
<bluesabre> smkellat: yeah, I adjusted that yesterday, not sure how to force it to rescan https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~planet-ubuntu/config/main/revision/1931
<bluesabre> or, are you seeing some other issue?
<bluesabre> also, not sure how it has the ghost default posts on there, I think I deleted those before updating the planet feed
<smkellat> bluesabre: I pulled from LP and it looks like you made the correct configuration change.  Usually the safe bet after doing such a change is to publish a brief blog post that would pop up in that feed target.  Planet updates are tied to some operation or another on LP so it happens roughly 1-2 hours.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-12-13
<Unit193> bluesabre: If you care about things I don't, then there's a couple things to fix in xfdashboard before I upload.
<Unit193> https://unit193.net/source/xfdashboard_0.7.7-0ubuntu1_amd64.build lintian output at the bottom.
<Unit193> (ignore the focal != devel stuff.)
<Unit193> (Pushed to git.)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-12-15
<bluesabre> Anybody got a copy of xubuntu-13.04-desktop-amd64.iso (yes, raring)? Was backup up old releases and I can't seem to find a download for that anywhere
<bluesabre> The cdimage sites for several old releases have disappeared, but I have been finding some old mirrors
<bluesabre> 15.04 (vivid) is equally as hard to track down
<bluesabre> Found a 15.04
<ochosi> bluesabre: sorry, didn't keep any of the older versions...
