#ubuntu-meeting 2005-02-26
<sivang> ah yay, just noticed the time has changed for the meeting :)
<Simira> has it?
<Simira> to when?
<Kamion> "Tuesday 15 February 2005 20:00 UTC: Technical Board"
<pitti> 20:00 UTC
<Simira> oh, the technical board, yes
<zul> it was changed a while ago
<Simira> but now is the Council meeting, right?
<Kamion> no, that's next week
<Kamion> the topic is confusingly ordered
<zul> no today is the 15th
<Simira> doh...
<Simira> I've been SO sure it's this week. Arg!
<dholbach> ok... i'm off - have a nice evening everyone
<zul> there is a meeting soon isnt there?
<fabbione> yup
<haggai> yes, 25 min
<fabbione> 24 minutes
* haggai can't be at the meeting
<mako> mvo won't make it either
<mako> at least not at first
<mdz> mako: are you going to be here for the meeting?
<fabbione> evening *
<zul> afternoon
<mdz> welcome
<pitti> Hi all
<mdz> let's get started
<mako> mdz: yes
<mako> mdz: i'm going to catch the first post-meeting train to boston
<mdz> mako: great; there is a huge list of MaintainerCandidates and I'm not sure where in the process they are
<sivang> good evening for us :)
<mdz> let's skip ahead first, and discuss pitti's language pack item
<mdz> I believe the question is, which languages should we try to fit onto the standard Ubuntu CD?
<mako> my train leaves in ~1.75h so we should keep that in mind
<mdz> sabdfl: we'll need input from you on that
<mako> mdz: how many can we fit?
<pitti> For that matter I did some research about the world's most famous languages
<mdz> are there publicly available statistics for the number of speakers for each language?
<mdz> mako: unknown; they are differently-sized
<pitti> http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/worldlang.htm
<pitti> mdz: ^
<mdz> great
<fabbione> i suggest english, german, french, spanish at least
<mako> i have some unscientific data thta might be useful here
<mako> yesterday i built some stats for jane on where we are shipping CDs
<fabbione> that will cover more than 1 billion possible users
<sivang> mdz: I'd suggest to put in langpacks of countries in which language has been somewhat a barrier for adoption, taking .IL as an example.
<mako> fabbione: there are 1billion english speakers
<mdz> of course, we should probably bias our numbers in favour of languages which are used in areas where free software is very popular
<pitti> according to above statistics, we need to ship 11 langpacks to cover the most popular langs
<pitti> mdz: right, that's not contained in the statistics
<mako> these are the top countries we ship cds to:
<mdz> for example, German is not in the top ten on some of these lists
<mako> 1. United States
<mako> 2. Spain
<mako> 3. France
<mako> 4. United Kingdom
<mako> 5. South Africa
<pitti> above 11 languages would account for approx. 30 MB
<mako> 6. Netherlands
<mdz> but Germany has a lot of free software activity, and I think we should include it
<fabbione> mako: i mean native speakers. not as second lang
<mako> 7. Canada
<mako> 8. Germany
<sivang> mako: hebrew
<mako> 9. Chile
<mako> 10. India
<mako> 11. Australia
<mako> 12. Mexico
<sivang> ah right, but that's according to speakers's number
<mako> 13. Belgium
<mako> 14. Russian Federation
<mako> 15. Argentina
<mdz> fabbione: agreed, those four should definiteely be on the list
<mako> IIRC, the 5 un languages are: english, spanish, french, arabic and russian
<mdz> what languages do we have available for India?
<pitti> I would also vote for Chinese
<mako> which are each lingua francas for large numbers of countries
<fabbione> mdz: if i didn't miscalculate we will cover ~1Bilion users as NATIVE speakers
<mako> fabbione: that's easy. there are 3/4billion native spanish speakers i thought
<pitti> fabbione: if we include chinese, we will instantly have 2 Billion
<mdz> pitti: how large in total for fabbione's choices?
<fabbione> pitti++
* pitti calculates
<fabbione> mako: yup
<mako> i think we need arabic, and chinese
<sivang> mako: what about hebrew? lack of speakers? ;-)
<mdz> mako: those two are enormous, I think
<mako> sivang: basically :-)
<mako> mdz: arabic is not that big
<pitti> mdz: 15 MB for english, german, french, spanish
<mako> mdz: chinese is big i think
<pitti> however, we should add portugese and chinese in any case
<mako> arabic is big though
<sivang> mako: so it's "go and make a customized installer cd" for me ?
<pitti> then we have 22 MB
<mako> sivang: yeah.. we'll make it easy to do that
<smurfix> you'd also need chinese fonts
<mdz> pitti: 22 total, or 22 + 15?
<pitti> mdz: 22 total
<pitti> wait
<mako> smurfix: if we ship *1* chinese font, it's reasonable
<mdz> pitti: does that include the dependencies?
<pitti>    1. Chinese* (937,132,000)            3379218
<pitti>    2. Spanish (332,000,000)             3181222
<pitti>    3. English (322,000,000)             2654930
<pitti>    4. Bengali (189,000,000)              610776
<pitti>    5. Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000)           513176
<mdz> fonts?
<pitti>    6. Arabic* (174,950,000)              747176
<pitti>    7. Portuguese (170,000,000)          4018494
<pitti>    8. Russian (170,000,000)             2217870
<pitti>    9. Japanese (125,000,000)            2556682
<pitti>   10. German (98,000,000)               3174524
<pitti>   11. French* (79,572,000)              3306650
<pitti> mdz: no, these are just the translations
<pitti> above list is the world top ten, middle number: #speakers, right number: langpack size in bytes
<mako> that's native speakers though
<mako> there are almost 2billion english speakers
<sabdfl> mdz: max 15 languages by default i think
<pitti> yes, native
<mdz> sivang: it's "the language support should be downloaded from the Internet" for you
<mako> but they're all non-native speakers
<fabbione> mako: yes, but we need to think in terms of native speakers here
<mako> total speakers is a more useful number here
<pitti> total speakers:
<mako> fabbione: in terms of "being able to use the cd at all", total is important too
<pitti>    1.  Mandarin Chinese (1.12 billion)
<pitti>    2. English (480 million)
<pitti>    3. Spanish (320 million)
<pitti>    4. Russian (285 million)
<pitti>    5. French (265 million)
<pitti>    6. Hindi/Urdu (250 million)
<pitti>    7. Arabic (221 million)
<pitti>    8. Portuguese (188 million)
<pitti>    9. Bengali (185 million)
<sivang> mdz: err ok, I'll *have* to do the customized installer cd for the "linux doesn't support hebrew enough" people here :)
<pitti>   10. Japanese (133 million)
<pitti>   11. German (109 million)
<mdz> sivang: or the DVD
<pitti> mako: native/total speakers differs only in the ordering, not in the set of languages
<mdz> we simply can't fit all languages on a CD
<sivang> mdz: right.
<mako> those lists overlap a lot
<amu> those top 15 are also supported by d-i ? 
<fabbione> mako: yes, but second lang has to be weighed in a different way imho.
<mako> ok.. the problem with that list is that 6, for example, is one *spoken* language
<mdz> mako: are our pressed CDs 650M max or 700M?
<pitti> I think we should focus on native languages
<mako> but they are encoding differently
<mako> mdz: we did 650 last time
<mako> mdz: for compatibility reasons
<pitti> Guys: please note that our current warty cds already ship all translations for the ship seed
<mdz> pitti: but they don't ship the auxiliary packages like fonts and dictionaries
<pitti> since we stip them, the total sum should indeed be lower if we only ship some langpacks
<mdz> and we haven't stripped anything yet, right?
<pitti> mdz: I did not take support packages into account
<mako> pitti: i think we should do the top 8-9 of that second list
<mdz> or have we stripped packages built since a certain date?
<pitti> mdz: I think we shouldn't ship them on the cd
<sabdfl> can we make language-related tools a dependency of the langpack?
<pitti> mdz: we already strip for some weeks now
<sabdfl> so installing a language also gives you fonts and input methods?
<sivang> sabdfl: this is already been done IIRC
<mdz> sabdfl: we could, but currently they are separate, and I think this is better
<pitti> mdz: I think the stripping already removed about 100 MB from our debs
<mako> mdz: i think we will want to at least have them as suggests
<mdz> mako, sabdfl: look at it from the other direction
<pitti> sabdfl: the language-pack-lang package provides translations, language-support-lang provides dependencies
<mdz> mako, sabdfl: the language support metapackage should depend on the support packages
<sivang> mako: would be nice, at first I thought the general idea to make language specific tools a depend of the langpacks
<sabdfl> mdz: doesn't it make sense to add "language support"? if you want the input methods separately you can always add them directly, but in general reading in a lanauge implies wanting to create content in that language?
<mdz> mako,sabdfl: and the translations
<mako> pitti: ok, that sounds good
<sivang> sabdfl: I agree
<mdz> sabdfl: no, being able to read a language means having it displayed correctly in your web browser, etc.
<mdz> sabdfl: it does not imply wanting to write documents in openoffice in that language
<pitti> sabdfl: our current installer tries to install both pack and support
<mako> sabdfl: actually, in terms of just reading, having a translation without a font is slightly useless as well :)
<sabdfl> i disagree
<smurfix> sabdfl: with what?  ;-)
<sivang> mdz: for hebrew enabled desktops, it does ;-)
<sabdfl> most people who can read a language (and want to use apps in a language) will want to create content in the same language
<pitti> ack
<mdz> sivang: you are not listening
<pitti> sabdfl: the installer will download the dependencies from the network if available
<mako> sabdfl: there is a difference between viewing a webpage in a language and wanting apps in that language
<pitti> however, including all dependencies on the CD is just too big
<sabdfl> we want to simplify this to the point where someone adds Korean, and gets the fonts, the translations and the input methods
<pitti> translations are okay since we stripped them
<mdz> sabdfl: we have the capability for both; it's not an issue.  the only question is what to put on the CD
<sabdfl> mako: then add the fonts directly
<mako> sabdfl: i want to view/write japanese but i don't necessarily want gimp in japanese
<Kamion> sabdfl: it's useful for the language support to be a separate package because currently language-support-* pulls in stuff not suitable for server installations
<Kamion> sabdfl: this is already implemented in the installer
<sabdfl> the thing we want people to apt-get install is the top level metapackage
<mako> sabdfl: i'm just saying there's a case for having them seperate
<sivang> mdz: ah ok, noted, thanks.
<mako> sabdfl: but i'm on your side about this about having the input methods installed on the cd with teh language support
<smurfix> We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO
<Kamion> sabdfl: if there is a top-level metapackage, then *please* let's keep the separate "translations only" bit, it's very useful
<sabdfl> agreed, i'm trying to make sure we agree on the end goal, which is to have shot-named language packs which are obvious and easy to find and which do it all
<mdz> smurfix: exactly
<mdz> sabdfl: I expect we will create a language chooser tool like gnome-app-install, so it won't be an issue
<mako> sabdfl: perfect :)
<sabdfl> Kamion: no problem, i'm just trying to remind folks that we want to focus on the simple get-it-all case from an end-user experience point of view
<sivang> would it e possible to make read < create == read && create for several langs?
<pitti> sabdfl: there was a time when the support packages depended on the translation pack
<mako> mdz: ideal
<sabdfl> mdz: you mean, like, for bendy+1 ;-)
<Kamion> sabdfl: well, language-pack-en Recommends: language-support-en; I kind of think it's a frontend issue after that :)
<pitti> sabdfl: but some folks complained about this, they wanted it separate
<mdz> sabdfl: no, for hoary+1. it would be very simple to do
<sabdfl> i'm teasing
<pitti> so I made it a Recommends
<sabdfl> a System-> Administration -> Languages tool will be perfect
<mako> but back to the major question....
<mdz> right
<pitti> the question is:
<mdz> either way, we need a prioritized list of 10 languages
<mako> is there space isssues with teh top 8 from that list?
<mdz> and then we can choose what will fit, in priority order
<pitti> how much space can we devote for translation apcks?
<mdz> mako: if we include support tools like dictionaries, yes
<mdz> (I think so)
<mako> we will need to work on that list a little bit too
<mdz> powerpc install CD is 586M currently
<pitti> if we include support dependencies (OO.o, ffox, etc.) for 10 languages, space will be an issue
<mako> becuase there is more than one arabic, more than one chinese, and more than urdu/hidi
<mdz> so we have ~64M
<mako> but i can help people sort that out
<mdz> i386 is 510M, leaving 140M
<mdz> sabdfl: do you think it is important that we standardize the set of languages we will put on the CD, and keep it consistent across releases?
<fabbione> if we could kill some kernels....
<mako> and that sounds removing all of the old translations?
<mdz> sabdfl: if so, we must be much more conservative, to ensure that we don't exceed our space budget
<sivang> mako: as far for arabic, people on my country team told me that htere is one "dialect" which is considered official thus resonable to put only it . (jordania)
<pitti> mdz: please note that we did not yet strip all packages
<sabdfl> mdz: yes, though with derivatives blooming i expect they will tune that list to their audience
<sivang> fabbione: hehe
<mako> sivang: eastern and egyption.. i suspect jordania is eastern
<mako> sivang: but i can look it up
<sivang> mako: yes, he told me that noone would get mad if he sees "only" the jordenian one ;-)
<amu> egyption is 'real arabic spoken 
<mako> i think if we take the languages spoken by msot people in the world and work down that list, we can defend that
<mako> we stop when we run out of room
<sabdfl> pitti: any idea what we save when we do strip main?
<fabbione> mako: we need to be more conservative
<mdz> pitti: do you know how much space is occupied by translations in the unstripped packages?
<pitti> sabdfl: it's already half-stripped
<mdz> mako: agreed
<pitti> mdz: hmm, I guess about 80 MB
<mdz> mako: but we can't go right up to the limit
<sabdfl> the critical point in the evening, then ;-)
<mako> fabbione: i can't think of a fairer *or* strategic way to do it
<mdz> mako: because then we'll need to drop a language or two in the next release, and as we grow
<fabbione> mako: otherwise we might end up in having to remove languages in next releases
<pitti> mdz: but that is really a coarse guesstimation
<pitti> mdz: I stripped 60 MB of translations for hoary/main
<pitti> (zipped)
<mako> fabbione: we're not going to nee to be removing languages spoken by 300million+ people :)
<sabdfl> the other challenge is that the number of strings will grow, and the translations will get more complete
<fabbione> mako: i agree, but we can't add italian in hoary and remove it for BENDY
<pitti> right, we should leave some space to account for that
<fabbione> mako: it will look really unprofessional
<KragenSitaker> wikipedia links to a language frequency list that has ten or fifteen versions of arabic listed as separate languages
<mako> fabbione: i don't think the numbers on that list are going to fluctuate too much along *our* timeframe
<KragenSitaker> but lists english as one
<sabdfl> hmm... can we leave the installer unstripped please?
<mdz> sabdfl: we don't have a choice
<fabbione> mako: the list of langs no, but the size of packages on cd yes
<pitti> sabdfl: it is unstripped
<mdz> sabdfl: it cannot be stripped
<sabdfl> good :-)
<mako> fabbione: right, so we are conservative
<mako> so is a good goal to get definite numbers on the sizes and then just work down the list in terms of most spoken languages?
<fabbione> mako: if we need to stick to rule #666 that force us to ship always one CD: yes
<mdz> mako: that's my feeling
<mdz> mako: but we need to know when to stop, as well
<sivang> seems that most reasonable
<mako> up to a conservative cut-off
<pitti> I thought we wanted to take into account in which countries Ubuntu is used most likely?
<mako> i mean, then we can't be accused of playing favorites, etc
<sabdfl> pitti: would be useful to know if any of the languages we consider translating is very poorly translated, because that is a risk of rapid translation and hence expansion
<mdz> pitti: as mako says, it's easier to defend by simple popularity of the language
<pitti> sabdfl: that can be seen at the size of the langpack
<KragenSitaker> pitti: good point --- portuguese is probably much more important than raw numbers of speakers would suggest
<pitti> sabdfl: a good translation has about 3 to 4 MB 
<sabdfl> Kamion: how hard would it be to prompt for langpack download based on region as well?
<mako> pitti: those numbers work out pretty well.. we may not do, say, a dutch translations on the cd even though we send lots of cds there but i think we'll live
<mdz> sabdfl: do you think the concerns about favoritism are justified?
<pitti> hmm, ok
<Kamion> sabdfl: we can select by region certainly; didn't think you'd want a prompt though
<mdz> sabdfl: we would not have hard data to work with for that angle
<sabdfl> mdz: if we cover each major language group, and have a rationale that is published, we are fine
<pitti> but If I just seed the top 5, we neither have French nor German :-)
<sabdfl> kamion: only if they want to download updates
<Kamion> sabdfl: you mean something like "if you selected Switzerland, then include French, German, and Italian"?
<sabdfl> do we have a multiselect widget in debconf?
<sabdfl> present a list and let them select all desired languages?
<Kamion> sabdfl: I'd be a bit concerned about geopolitics, but if you like :)
<Keybuk> can't we do it automatically if they select to update from the net
<sivang> why not shipping each language per word region, and donwload specifics over the net?
<Kamion> sabdfl: yes, and that is done in expert mode
<sivang> (hmm, not sure if this is even better..)
<Kamion> Keybuk: do what?
<Thom_Holwerda> 1. Chinese 2. English 3. Hindi 4. Spanish 5. Russian
<Keybuk> download interesting language packs based on their locale
<Thom_Holwerda> most popluar languages
<sabdfl> we can get languages-by-country from rosetta easily enough, or even from the libc translations table carlos loves playing with
<Kamion> Template: localechooser/supported-locales
<Kamion> Type: multiselect
<Kamion> Choices: ${LOCALELIST}
<Kamion> _Description: Choose other locales to be supported:
<Kamion>  You may choose additional locales to be installed from this list.
<Kamion> sabdfl: the installer already uses the SUPPORTED table from libc
<sabdfl> Kamion: i love it when you're so far ahead of me ;-)
<Kamion> sabdfl: (I had to do it for kickstart, you see :-))
<sabdfl> so those locale's map directly to langpacks?
<Kamion> many-to-one mapping
<mako> wow. nice :)
<KragenSitaker> Thom_Holwerda: is that including Urdu under Hindi or not?  They use different character sets
<sabdfl> is the question ugly or does it look slick and easy to answer?
<Kamion> it's kind of overkill and the UI isn't great, but it'll do for now considering it's an expert mode thing
<KragenSitaker> also, what's "Chinese"?
<mako> KragenSitaker: we know
<Thom_Holwerda> KragenSitaker: i dont know
<mako> KragenSitaker: right, i brought this up a little bit
<Kamion> sabdfl: it's expert mode only, which is ugly in general; do you want it non-expert-mode?
<KragenSitaker> mako: I know *you* know --- I'm just pointing out that Thom may not have been the original compiler of the language list
<pitti> KragenSitaker: Mandarin, mostly
<Thom_Holwerda> i am indeed not, took it from an atlas
<sabdfl> mdz, what do you think about prompting for langpack download based on location if they have chosen to download updates and we know they have a net connection?
<mako> pitti: well madarin or catonese is not important because the written language is the same
<Kamion> at the moment it's a big list starting "aa_DJ, aa_ER, aa_ER@saaho, aa_ET, af_ZA, ..."
<mdz> sabdfl: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6390
<sabdfl> can we hint at the size of the download involved?
<Thom_Holwerda> hindi does not include urdu
<pitti> ^ erm, download is already attempted right now??
<KragenSitaker> wow
<Thom_Holwerda> urdu is 13th
<sabdfl> kamion: that's what you prompt on? aa_DJ? "af_ZA"? or "Afrikaans"?
<sivang> Kamion: would be good to have it non export, I already have people complaining over too many languge settings that are "expert" moded.
<mako> Thom_Holwerda: we know.. but there are an order of magnitude more people who can read hindi versus urdu
<Kamion> Keybuk: we already download the language pack that matches their selected language; for some countries I'd be worried about the download being huge if you try everything
<Kamion> sivang: non-expert-mode questions require Mark's approval in general
<Kamion> sivang: and they'd better be pretty
<mdz> sabdfl: oo.o localization alone for Chinese is ~4M
<sivang> Kamion: ah oops ok.
<Kamion> sabdfl: at the moment; it was a quick hack to let me implement the 'langsupport' keyword in Kickstart
<pitti> sabdfl: I think installing one langpack by default (without further prompting) is a good choice for 98% of the desktops
<Kamion> translating to more friendly text would be possible but I'll need to figure out how to suck in the translations automatically from iso-codes/localechooser/whatever and probably how to do much cleverer sorting
<pitti> mdz: let alone the help packages...
<sabdfl> pitti: but which langpack?
<Kamion> sabdfl: I'm not sure that this question would pass the needed-for-nearly-everyone test whichever way you slice it
<pitti> sabdfl: the langpack matching the users's selected language
<mdz> I think we're straying from the point here; do we have a consensus on methodology for selecting which languages we should ship on the CD?
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's easy, the one matching the installation language they suggested; that's what we do
<pitti> sabdfl: as it's done in the current daily CDs
<sabdfl> pitti: ok, that's best
<sivang> pitti: agreed
<mako> mdz: you have my blessing :)
<pitti> proposed method: start adding from the top until 30 MB is reached?
<fabbione> 20MB
<pitti> then we have enought space even on ppc for the future
<fabbione> adding later is easy
<fabbione> removing no
<pitti> we still gain some space through stripping
<mdz> with 20M I do not think we will get Chinese
<sabdfl> let's compile a list of top 10 languages spoken, and top 10 countries Ubuntu is requested in shipit, and try to cover all of those
<mako> mdz: we will get chinese
<pitti> ok, 20 MB is fine, too
<mdz> sabdfl: ok, we have both of those lists
<Kamion> sabdfl: we can assume that the selected installation language is understood by the user, and I tend to feel that it's better to push off the task of installing further language packs to a desktop application, considering that we've provided for automatic installations with multiple language packs
<mako> mdz: and english, and french
<fabbione> pitti: that will happen only if we upload the packages that have been unstripped
<mdz> mako: not with support
<mako> mdz: and probably spanish
<mako> mdz: not if we could oo.o support
<mdz> mako: oo.o localization, dictionaries, etc.
<pitti> fabbione: right, we wil
<sabdfl> kamion: agreed
<mako> mdz: then we don't include that
<mdz> mako: sabdfl insists that we do
<sabdfl> and we can make that tool pretty smart, showing just the list of languages recommended for your IP address location, for example
<Hwolf> On localisation: I'd like to be able to hide those fonts that I can't read from my ooo fonts list. Otherwise i'll be scrolling through a lot of chinese/hebrew etc. 
<fabbione> sabdfl: that doesn't work pretty well when you are behind some retarted networks
<Thom_Holwerda> as long as other langueges from ouytside your IP can be selected as well :)
<fabbione> retarded even
<mako> if thethe choice comes down to  chinese everything support or no other languages, i don't think it's much of a choice
<sivang> Hwolf: heh
<KragenSitaker> you are in 10.0.0.x.  apparently you are on ARPAnet.  would you like to use English?
<sabdfl> fabbione: we'd use combination of current selected timezone/locale and ip address, for example
<Hwolf> sivang: it's already annoying, imho
<mdz> let's try not to stray too far into the hypothetical; we have an immediate issue to deal with for Hoary
<Thom_Holwerda> sabdfl: im dutch but i always use english-- so that may become annoying
<sivang> Hwolf: oh :-/
<fabbione> sabdfl: imho timezone/locale is the best. I would definetely leave the IP out
<sabdfl> Thom: I think english will always be installed. Kamion?
<fabbione> sabdfl: it has too many implications and exceptions to provide a good choise
<pitti> is there any real opposition to "start adding from the top until 20 MB is reached"
<fabbione> sabdfl: + you need a mapping file that is constantly up2date for that
<sabdfl> fabbione: we have one, in rosetta
<fabbione> sabdfl: Ip address -> location?
<sabdfl> mdz: i think you have agreement
<mako> pitti: i haven't heard anyone
<smurfix> if OOo is included in that size limit, that doesn't seem enough
<mdz> if pitti's question is answered, let's proceed with the agenda
<mako> pitti: silence is consent :)
<pitti> ok :-)
<pitti> but I don't seed support dependencies
<pitti> just translations
<Hwolf> sivang: so if we include all sorts of non-english non-standard fonts, could they be uninstallable without breaking ubuntu-base/desktop?
<pitti> dependencies can be downloaded
<mdz> pitti: there is clearly much more to discuss about language support; if you could summarize the unresolved questions for ubuntu-devel@lists and start a discussion there, that would be great
<mdz> pitti: we have raised some new issues here I think
<pitti> ok, I will read scrollback and summarize
<mako> pitti: if it's impossible to fit, it's impossible to fit
<mdz> thanks
<mako> pitti: awesome.. i will jump into that discussion
<pitti> mako: obviously :-)
<mdz> next agenda item is new maintainer candidates
<sivang> Hwolf: well, they should...I'll try over here and let you know
<mdz> there is a long list on MaintainerCandidates
<mdz> but some of these people I know have already been processed
<Hwolf> sivang, thanks.
<sabdfl> we now have at least a spec for managing this in launchpad
<sabdfl> due to be done for hoary
<mdz> if you're already an Ubuntu maintainer, please remove yourself from https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MaintainerCandidates
<ogra> we should move them to the MOTU page
<mako> a number of them have been processed
<mdz> is there anyone present who is seeking TB approval for maintainership?
<mako> T-Bone, sivang, ogra are handled IIRC
<T-Bone> mako: ? I'm a maintainer since sabdfl appointed me in last november.
<mako> T-Bone: yes
<ogra> mako: riddell, crimsun, dholbach, Treenaks, ajmitch, tseng
<ogra> zul
<ogra> sladen
<mako> so.. that leaves: Saravanan Raju
<ogra> whom did i forget ?
<mako> y'know.. a lot of these people were applying for membership
<mako> but it was before we had a membership
<mako> i know for a fact that several of these people would like to be a member for not a maintainer
<mdz> so I take it that there is no TB business regarding maintainer candidates today?
<mdz> ok, then
<mdz> any other business?
<mako> we need to clean up that page
<mako> badly
<mdz> mako,ogra: can one of you take care of cleaning up MaintainerCandidates?
<mako> it's a multi-person job
<crimsun_> I'll help with that, mdz/mako/ogra.
<ogra> i think every motu can move his page to MOTU 
<crimsun_> will sort out in u-d and u-m
<mako> people that we don't know what to do, we need to contact them about the membership/maintainership process
<ogra> its just reparenting
<mako> crimsun_: cool
<mdz> ok, thanks
<sivang> crimsun_: what is u-m ?
<crimsun_> sivang: ubuntu-motu
<mako> if there is time, we can talk right after the meeting
<sivang> crimsun_: ah -)
<crimsun_> (for administrative issues only)
<mako> crimsun_, ogra: cool?
<mdz> last call for other TB business
<crimsun_> mako: yep
<mako> oh wait.. there will definitely be time then
<ogra> mako: ok
<sivang> mako: you need to run no?
<mdz> meeting adjourned.  Thanks, everyone
<Kamion> sabdfl: sorry, I was busy with #ubuntu-devel stuff; English will not always be installed at the moment (the C locale will, though ...), but I can make that a special case if you like
<mako> sivang: nah.. train isn't for a couple hours
<sivang> mako: ok
<crimsun_> mako: / ogra: most of those names/links are no longer "candidates" per se and have already been approved, so we should just delete them from that wiki page.
<ogra> crimsun_: let them reparent it themselves to the respective group member/motu
<tseng> can I be my own parent?
<tseng> btw, perhaps we should work this out later
<ogra> tseng: MTU is your parent ;
<crimsun_> ogra: ok. Shall we ping them (on irc and/or via email) to alert them?
<mako> tseng: i don't zwiki supports taht, YET
<ogra> MOTU even
<mako> i'll go through and delete teh folks i know are already members/etc
<sabdfl> kamion: thanks. pitti, mdz, how about making English a special case always-install?
<fabbione> sabdfl++
<pitti> sabdfl: it already is
<sivang> I second that,we must have english
<sabdfl> mako: perhaps leave people who were declined till we have further working experience together?
<pitti> sabdfl: IIRC en is in shipped
<sabdfl> with a note
<Kamion> we must have C; what's the use case for English?
<pitti> Kamion: or is it?
<Kamion> pitti: it is
<sabdfl> what's the difference?
<Kamion> C is what's used as the source for translations
<smurfix> Kamion: People who write their C in $LANGUAGE and then ship an English translation may be rare but they're not nonexistent
<pitti> ~/ubuntu/seeds-hoary$ grep language-pack-en *
<pitti> ship: * language-pack-en
<pitti> ship: * language-pack-en-update
<Kamion> English may be translated (consider "Trash" -> "Wastebasket" for en_GB, for instance)
<mako> sabdfl: right.. the first pass just removed people who are already maintainers
<pitti> so it should always be installed
<mako> crimsun_, ogra can you guys take a look at the list now
<Kamion> smurfix: I fully agree that English should be installed if you've selected English as your installation language. What I'm questioning is the value of installing it for everyone on the planet.
<mako> is there anyone i missed?
<Kamion> pitti: ship is not always installed; that's the very definition of ship
<Kamion> desktop is always installed; ship goes on the CD and is conditionally installed
<pitti> argh, I mixed that up with desktop
<pitti> right
<smurfix> Hmm, you're right, I was thinking of having English as fallback instead of $LANGUAGE, but that's not how it works
<pitti> but why would my mother want English?
<Kamion> sabdfl: C isn't UTF-8, though (by definition)
<ogra> mako: we're talking about MaintainerCandidates ?
<Kamion> but "English" fallbacks will be to C
<mako> ogra: yes
<ogra> mako: i dont see a change...
<crimsun_> mako: Jonathan Riddell, Paul Sladen, and Chuck Short have all been approved
<ogra> mako: ah.... mozilla cache.... weird
* mako remembers approving at least two of them
<pitti> Kamion, sabdfl, mdz: would you be opposed to removing ttf-indic and ttf-malayan from ubuntu-desktop and isntead make them language-support dependencies?
<mako> ok.. new version w/o those three
<sabdfl> pitti: fine by me
<Kamion> didn't we want to have at least one font that gave coverage of everything, regardless of l-s-*
<mako> is there anyone on that list that you know wants to be a maintainer/motu? 
<Kamion> ?
<Kamion> i.e. installed by default
<sabdfl> hmm... good point kamion
<Kamion> I thought that was one of the things we discussed; l-s-* was to provide better more specialist coverage
<ogra> mako: yup
<mako> ogra: who?
<mako> i think we should email the rest of them and tell them about the new procedure and ask them if they really want membership, etc
<Kamion> so if ttf-{indic,malayan} are just supplementary things then I'd say removing them is fine
<ogra> mako: wait, i have to dig my mails.... i got at least 3 motu candidates last week...
<sabdfl> pitti: changing my mind to agree with kamion, lets try to retain max font coverage
<pitti> sabdfl: ok
<ogra> mako: most want to be in the MOTU team.... we first need to review theitr packages....
<pitti> sabdfl: ok, so what about "english always be installed"?
<pitti> sabdfl: it will be on the cd, so all English users will have it automatically isntalled anyway
<mako> ogra: can you then split that page into two lists?
<pitti> sabdfl: but for non-English folks it seems to be kind of a waste
<Kamion> (it's a trivial base-config change either way, BTW)
<mako> ogra: people that you know want to be MOTU.. and ones who you don't know about
<pitti> the English translations won't be used even if they are installed
<ogra> mako: good idea....i'll do it..
<mako> ogra: because if they are not going through pre-hoary they need to go through membership
<Kamion> although I guess we wouldn't want to force l-p-en for automatic installs if they didn't select English
<mako> ogra: when you are doing, let me know
<mako> ogra: i will go through the link and mail all of the people and explain the change in policy and ask them waht they want :)
<ogra> mako: during the next hour....
<mdz> pitti: this is one of the things I would like to discuss on the mailing list :-)
<Hwolf> Kamion, sadfl, mdz, pitti: the same goes for a major bunch of fonts, from ttf-arabic to ttf-korean
<ogra> mako: yup..., but that will drown us in package reviews....
<mako> ogra: ok.. well i might run off to a train soon so an email makes sure i don't miss it
<pitti> Kamion: right, it just makes no sense
<mdz> pitti: we have at least three major use cases
<ogra> mako: which is quite time consuming....
<mdz> pitti: reading content in a language, writing content in a language, and using programs translated into a lanugage
<mdz> language
<mako> ogra: i can help if you need it
<ogra> mako: ok, i'll mail you....including a list of the ppls mail adresses...
<mako> ogra: that's not necesasry. i can dig those up
<sabdfl> i think anyone who is wanting to se programs in a language is in the content-creation realm too
<ogra> mako: k
<mako> ogra: just a list of the people you know about in regards to motu and those you don't know about it
<sabdfl> which simplifies it to two use cases
<mdz> sabdfl: <smurfix>       We have read < create < localize, more or less, IMHO
<mako> ogra: i can lbdb the email addresses
<mdz> I think that's fairly accurate
<mdz> they're concentric
<mdz> it might be worthwhile to represent that in the language support packages
<sabdfl> we want read everywhere (fonts only) in desktop, then an easy install to get localise+create
<sabdfl> if you want localise | create then you need to dig a little
<sabdfl> so will pitti initiate a discussion on -devel about english as a default-install option?
<smurfix> sabdfl: most people wouldn't want more than one localizations -- what for?
<mdz> pitti will initiate a discussion based on the transcript of the meeting + post-discussion
<ogra> mako: hmm, this page has the name MaintainerCandidates ... should we probably make a MemberCandidates one ?
<pitti> sabdfl: yes, I will put that into the mail
<smurfix> I'm not going to switch my OOo to Japanese menus just because I'm writing a letter to my friend in Tokio.
<sabdfl> smurfix: need a language for a sysadmin to fall back to
<mdz> this should include at least: installer issues (language selection, availability of language packs during the installation process, etc.), language support metapackage organization (read/create/localize), whether we need additional fonts for better desktop coverage...
<mdz> whether English should always be installed
<ogra> mako: regarding the title and the text at top, i would expect everybody there going for maintainer... even if i dont know them...
<mako> ogra: that's just not the case
<mako> ogra: because that page is old
<ogra> ah, ok...
<mako> ogra: i.e., beofre membership and maintainership were different things
<mako> i know a few people on that list really want membership, not maintainership
<ogra> ok
<mako> so we should ask people.. at least the folks at the top of the list
<ogra> i just was a bit distraced by the introduction :)
<sabdfl> folks, i need to head home unfortunately
<sabdfl> good night all
<ogra> night sabdfl
<pitti> night sabdfl 
<sivang> night sabdfl 
<ogra> mako: mail sent 
<mako> ogra: awesome
<ogra> mako: and i just recieved a mail of a new one ;) 
<mako> ogra: well that's fine.. i'm not very worried about accounts moving forward
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-20
* ulinskie is away: I love being Pinoy ... ayoko kasing maging mabahong isda
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu |  15 Feb 19:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 15 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU |  16 Feb 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Feb 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team |
<ajmitch_> 
<Mez> well said ajmitch_ 
<Seveas> Yes, he sums it up quite nicely
<Mez> :D
<ajmitch_> Mez: that's called forcing a disconnect from ssh due to power failure taking out the AP here :)
<Mez> ah lol
* jsgotangco peeks
<JaneW> hi all
<pips1> hi
<JaneW> hi pips1 ltns
<JaneW> hi flint
<jsgotangco> *bamf*
<flint> good morning campers!!!!
<flint> JaneW, good morning my dear!
<JaneW> hi jsgotangco 
<JaneW> ogra: ping
<flint> JaneW, I actually have the lab running here finally.
<fabbione> hey flint !
<pips1> JaneW, I've been very busy with my day job
<flint> fabbione, my god it's the Italian Stallion!!!!
<fabbione> ahah
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> isn't that Rocky?
<JaneW> flint: excellent
<fabbione> man.. i can't hide anywhere
<JaneW> hi fabbione 
<pips1> JaneW, lot's of overtime
<fabbione> hey Jane
<JaneW> pips1: ahh :/
<flint> fabbione, this is like a visit from the pope, Fabio you are most Welcome!
<ogra> moin
<JaneW> where's ogra?
<ogra> :P
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<JaneW> there he is
<JaneW> hi Oli
<fabbione> flint: thanks :)
<ogra> ok, tech update:
<ogra> fixed a lot of smaller ltsp bugs, thin-client-faster startup about to be finished (should be done tomorrow)
<ogra> merged a lot of debian fixes for our ltsp package (especially important for lower memeory clients).
<ogra> the bug that caused icon themes, wallpapers and themes to be broken if you were logged in with the same user twice is fixed, so internet cafes and schools that want to use only one account on evey thin client will be much happier (fix is in seb128's hands, to be uploaded).
<ogra> gdm theme handling was fixed so the customization doesnt break theme handling anymore (important for edubuntu-artwork)
<ogra> low memory spec fot ltsp should be finished before next meeting
<JaneW> yes ogra is first, and let's behave today
<JaneW> ogra: sounds good
<ogra> pre flight 4 testing is still not started ...
<JaneW> how much more to do before FF next thurs?
<ogra> we're having small problemns with the NEW process in soyuz that breaks the CDs
<JaneW> ogra: what's holding flight 4 up?
<JaneW> oic
<ogra> if thats done, we can start the first flight4 tests
<JaneW> how serious is it?
<JaneW> cause for mild panic?
<jsgotangco> builds
<flint> ogra, you were busy... we got a good image but soyuz cannot generate it?
<ogra> its serious for the whole distro, not only for us ... i hope thats fixed soon
<JaneW> agreed
<ogra> flint, we dont
<ogra> flint, the image is missing packages that are stuck in the NEW queue
<JaneW> ogra: is there an eta on a fix yet?
<ogra> and there are problems to process that easily ...
<flint> ogra, gotcha... I finally get off my ass and get the lab in and the distro breaks (I am a most bitter old man :^)
<JaneW> is Kamion still estimating THIS week?
<ogra> a paste from the canonical channel:
<ogra> <silbs> March 2006, Linux Journal (the US one) has a 3/4 page on Edubuntu by Doc Searls.  Title is "Edubuntucation"
<ogra> fyi 
<ogra> !
<ogra> :)
<jsgotangco> Doc Searls!
<JaneW> ogra: awesome we must get a copy
<jsgotangco> god that is good
<ogra> JaneW, i think so
<jsgotangco> Doc Searls!
<flint> yea buddy that is good ink!
<ogra> jsgotangco, depends what he writes :P
<jsgotangco> still
<jsgotangco> Doc Searls!
<jsgotangco> heh
<ogra> JaneW, thats all from my side for today
<JaneW> ogra: i created https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuFlight4Announcement
<JaneW> ogra: ready for you to fill in with cool features etc
<ogra> yup, saw it in #edubuntu 
<jsgotangco> i saw it on email too
<mhz> re
<ogra> i'll do ... let me finish my fater startup spec first :)
<JaneW> think we need a grpahical page like ubuntu has? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight4
<mhz> wow, JaneW indeed that Ubuntu dapper announcement looks very cool
<ogra> JaneW, urgh ... thats a day work or even more ...
<flint> janew, does the flight 4 page have an iso behind it now? or is this for the future.
<ogra> taking all these screenshots and make them ready takes a lot of time 
<jsgotangco> future
<JaneW> ogra: also are you updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/CurrentEdubuntu?
<ogra> and we dont have a new theme yet
<ogra> JaneW, nope, not yet ...
<JaneW> ogra: nod, that's why I am asking...
<flint> JaneW, you probably remember the "harry potter" angle...
<JaneW> ogra: think it's worth the effort yet, esp without a new theme and look yet?
<ogra> i'm very busy with coding and wouldnt like to be distracted by paperwork if possible ...
<ogra> i dont want to risk my gaols ...
<JaneW> ogra: understood.... here is your chance to trawl for help...
<JaneW> *HINT HINT*
* jsgotangco is away
<ogra> haha
<mhz> JaneW: I'd gladly do it but It wont be possible for me until I get to put my hands on that lab i told you (1 more week at least)
<ogra> flint, what about you, you are eager to test, would you mind making a little testplan ? 
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/CurrentEdubuntu
<mhz> JaneW: I have not tried dapper yet :(
<flint> JaneW, hey, I am getting a lab together.  let me talk this offline with the Janester...
<ogra> cool :)
<JaneW> I am still a little scared of Dapper
<flint> ogra, ok I see a test plan, and a good one.  who did this?
<JaneW> it didn;t pass the first Jane test cycle yet...
<ogra> flint, dholbach
<jsgotangco> this was taken from dholbach's originail test plan
<flint> ogra, this is really fine.
<ogra> yup :)
<jsgotangco> ok
* jsgotangco waits for his turn
<JaneW> ogra / flint: I think we just need to test the tesp plan and see if it needs any amendments
<JaneW> ogra: will you keep us informed on flight CD status and let us know when the announcement needs to be ready?
<flint> JaneW, put testing on the agenda.  I agree we need to walk this space...
<ogra> JaneW, absolutely
<JaneW> and we need to list of cool new features, known issues and bugs etc
<ogra> JaneW, lets have it prepared for the weekend ...
<Kinnison> ogra: which 'NEW' bug is this?
<JaneW> ogra: agreed
<JaneW> ok well then tech discussion done.
<ogra> Kinnison, we cant process NEW apparently ... Kamion knows more ...
<JaneW> next up Docs
<JaneW> jsgotangco: you first
<jsgotangco> cool
<jsgotangco> i've uploaded new docs and should be available at http://doc.ubuntu.com/
<jsgotangco> but i forgot to upload the makescript so wait for a few hours
<jsgotangco> and i've been testing the amd64 builds hoping for a working system but alas
<jsgotangco> ...
<jsgotangco> so i'll just depend on the live workstation builds for the meantime
<flint> jsgotangco, any paticular place on http://doc.ubuntu.com/?
<jsgotangco> i've also started a small draft for a quickguide for end users intead of admins of the system
<JaneW> jsgotangco: as you mentioned to me earlier?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> its for end users who log into as clients
<flint> jsgotangco, this is a good thing.
<JaneW> jsgotangco: what format will the quick guide be?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: lovely :))
<jsgotangco> instead of showing thema ll the usual ubuntu stuff
<jsgotangco> we'll focus on the core desktop apps that they can use
<jsgotangco> kedu for instance
<jsgotangco> the screenshots are not a problem i'm very much used to this
<jsgotangco> i just need a working system so i'll probably settle for an i386 as long as it works
<jsgotangco> me and mhz talked about this in passing earlier
<flint> jsgotangco, where are you?  maybe we can find a donation.
<jsgotangco> we might make a TOC on the wiki
<JaneW> jsgotangco: that's great, cos many people don;t know/care about the technical stuff, they just wanna know what end user stuff they can DO with it
<JaneW> I like the idea a LOT
<jsgotangco> flint, i'm in +8 (Manila)
<mhz> jsgotangco: I already have the junior part 90% ready with Gcompris (in spanish)
<jsgotangco> it won't take that much time on my side and workable on a weekend
<JaneW> mhz is this similar to what you spoke to me about before?
<flint> jsgotangco, ok how do I ship a computer to you?  also do you need the monitor?
<mhz> JaneW: before?
<ogra> jsgotangco, i'll look up the last working liveCD for you ... there you can make screenshots ..
<jsgotangco> flint, let's discuss that later
<JaneW> mhz: the spanish docs
<flint> jsgotangco, email me flint@flint.com
<pips1> jsgotangco, I have a working AMD64 edubuntu dapper... yours is broken? oh, you need the hardware ?!
<jsgotangco> the good thing is that we (docteam) already have good fondation templates
<mhz> JaneW: ohh, 2 weeks ago,, yes. And we'll put some parts together with jsgotangco (me has to translate them now :D )
<jsgotangco> pips1, heh i have 3 amd64 machines here
<JaneW> mhz: cool
<ogra> pips1, i'm fine, but i dont have time to make screenshots currently
<jsgotangco> i can do the shots
<ogra> pips1, jsgotangco has no working installation
<jsgotangco> i can just update this dapper too
<jsgotangco> and grab the apps instead
<JaneW> ogra: have we got our 3 themes etc ready? (I mean icons and fonts etc)
<ogra> JaneW, not at all ... 
<ogra> art freeze is still far out
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mhz> yeah!
<jsgotangco> i'll churn out an email this week about this
<ogra> JaneW, and i havent anything from silbs yet
<jsgotangco> i first have to make a docbook framework then commit
<mhz> JaneW: I am very worried about this
<jsgotangco> the worst we could do is use the existing human theme
<jsgotangco> which isn't bad
<JaneW> ogra: I know we don;t have the silbs stuff but aren;t we chosing our own icons and fonts etc again...?
<jsgotangco> the docs should build here:
<jsgotangco> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/about-edubuntu/C/index.html
<jsgotangco> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu-releasenotes/C/index.html
<jsgotangco> but they'll 404 for now
<JaneW> I still have to say I like the current distinct look edubuntu has, I don't think it should be too similar to ubuntu
<jsgotangco> give it a few hours
<ogra> JaneW, yes, i havent gotten to this yet, the gdm theme breakage and gnome-settings-daemon breakage were more important for themeing yet ...
<JaneW> jsgotangco: ta, will you post to #edu too later please? 
<jsgotangco> yes
<JaneW> ogra: do you need someone to look into it?
<jsgotangco> when the cron starts to build
<ogra> JaneW, did you read my report above ? 
<ogra> JaneW, i fixed it ;)
<JaneW> we have some very competant graphic oriented people here
<JaneW> ogra: yes I read it
<ogra> but that prevented me from doing any other artwork stuff :)
<JaneW> ogra: it didn;t talk about the actual themes to be applied....
<JaneW> ogra: sure
<JaneW> ogra: I am asking more about the selection now though
<flint> ogra ares gratia jane...
<ogra> how about a call for submissions to the ML ?
<ogra> and we vote for the young and old theme then ...
<ogra> (the mid one will be silbs job)
<mhz> JaneW: I stopped the theming plans only because there were uncertainties on priorities about artwork and I had to wisely use the resources
<JaneW> ogra: agreed
<flint> ogra, how "pluggable" are the themes in the code now?
<mhz> JaneW: however, I have been working little by little on a XFCE theme for edubuntu highschool
<JaneW> ogra: I was just trying to gather if you had all the requirements identified and selected already or if we still need to look and decide etc
<ogra> flint, dpkg-reconfigure edubuntu-artwork gives you a menu to select the age
<flint> ogra so edubuntu-artwork is the selector switch...  ok I will screw around with it in breezy...
<ogra> JaneW, i havent yet ... i'm focussing on feature freeze, so coding is my highest priority
<JaneW> ogra: understood, as it should be
<ogra> flint, not much difference yet ... all three themes are the same 
<JaneW> ok can the rest of you look at other themey kind of things and see if you can find stuff that yells 'edubuntu' and 'professional' ;)
<flint> ogra, it is all about the mechanism silly man... :^)
<mhz> JaneW: then junior and olds ?
<ogra> mhz, yes
<JaneW> yes we have junior, senior and plain
<mhz> GTK + icons + backgrounds ?
<flint> JaneW, gotta have cooler names than junior, senior and plain!!!!
<JaneW> plain is simple and monochrome as possible for people who don't want distractions on the desktop at all
<ogra> mhz, no GTK 
<pips1> in  dpkg-reconfigure edubuntu-artwork it uses the terms "primary", "secondary" and "highschool" ...
<ogra> mhz, icons, splashscreen and backgrounds
<ogra> pips1, i'm open for better naming suggestions
<JaneW> we had someone saying he is a teacher and wants his kids to learn and do what they are supposed to and not want to PLAY.
<JaneW> pah
<mhz> ogra: oh, ok
<flint> JaneW, don't go down the road of work and play, not here, not now :^)
<pips1> ogra, JaneW : should it be "junior", "senior" and "plain", then?
<ogra> that would also require menu changes we cant do yet
<ogra> (play/non play)
<JaneW> ok so can everyone have a look at the available options and we can nominate at next week's meeting?
<ogra> pips1, sounds good to me ...
<flint> ogra, so the doce says primairy, secondary and high school eh?
<pips1> doce, hehe :-)
<JaneW> ok do we need to discuss the web and wiki?
<ogra> currently, yes ... but thats an interinm anyway ... just to show we *can* distinguish now+
<JaneW> we agreed that we will migrate the HTML pages to moin
<ogra> the naming isnt mandatory
<JaneW> pips1: did you hear about that?^
<pips1> JaneW, yeah, I read that you decided on Moin at the last meeting... :-/ 
<JaneW> we also need some new content and orgnaisation on the wiki and web pages
<JaneW> pips1: sorry, but it does makes sense in this case
<pips1> in the absence of the "web team" ;-)
<JaneW> many of the articles which are published quote directly from our pages
<JaneW> I think it's time we put some new words up there...
<mhz> JaneW: and we received a suggestion to have 'front page' showing changes or news so it doesnt look as if we did nothing :)
<pips1> where is highvoltage ?
<JaneW> also it will tie in nicely if we relaunch the page with an updated look for the new version too
<mhz> and with shots from ...Book
<mhz> or Guide
<JaneW> mhz: yes, we do need a webmaster to keep the pages fresh and up to date
<pips1> sorry, I am trying to catch up re the website ...
<jsgotangco> JaneW, are these pages in a separate server? i thought it was in the same servers as that of ubuntu
<mhz> JaneW: we need a 'teacher-users' community
<mhz> so they can provide 'weekly news'
<JaneW> jsgotangco: I am nt sure where the html pages are now, but the wiki will be on the same as the rest of ubuntu like the wiki afaik
<pips1> I was very busy in the last months with my day job, but this week I started working on the edubuntu website idea again... 
<flint> mhz, as opposed to what?
<mhz> JaneW: otherwise all news willbe 99% IT related from ubuntu
<JaneW> pips1: great, your suggestions where very helpful before
<pips1> I was hoping to touch base with highvoltage today...
<JaneW> highvoltage has been helping intermittently, but is also very busy with his day job
<pips1> ah
<flint> mhz, teachers-users support and development somewhere else?  Like the dining room and the kitchen?  promising idea.
<JaneW> pips1: me too, not sure where he is
<JaneW> pips1: you got his e-mail address?
<pips1> well, I'm actually taking time off work (compensating overtime) now!
<mhz> flint: yup, something like that
<JaneW> flint: I think we must be careful not to take the analogy too far and become really corny
<pips1> is the decisision about using Moin cast in stone now?
<mhz> pips1: so it seems
<JaneW> pips1: well we can't keep changing our minds
<JaneW> pips1: but we need someone to own and drive it
<flint> jane corn on the cob or in a casserole? hehe
<JaneW> pips1: I reckon that person gets the strongest vote
<pips1> I wanted to suggest you give me some time, let's say two weeks to get a drupal site running to convince you to go ahead with drupal... what does everybody think?
<JaneW> pips1: hno73 likes mojn and the main ubuntu site is running in moin now, so it does make sense
<JaneW> pips1: ogra wasn't that happy about drupal security
<ogra> JaneW, in fact i dont care if i dont have to maintin it ... 
<flint> JaneW, .... anyway that was a metaphore not an analogy.... (what a college education will do for you :^)  did we not settle this site issue last week?
<JaneW> ogra: good attitude! :))
<ogra> i just pointed out that it ends in upgrade hell ...
<mhz> pips1: and mhz would get crazy if we get back to drupal proposal after he had accepted Drupal and then got surprised we would use lovely Moin
<pips1> drupal, even though it's php, has a very strong community, good core devs, and hasn't had many vulnerabilities so far... i.e. its track record is better than most php fare...
<ogra> i think its up to the guys working with it to decide about the tool ...
<JaneW> flint: right it's a metaphor, but I'd argue that it's an analogy too :P
<pips1> ogra, right
<mhz> well, I am sure hno73 will go for Moin and I sill stand defending it :D
<JaneW> pips1: there was an issue with getting a server to host drupal, and getting our sys admins to find time to do it
<JaneW> pips1: moin took that requirement away
<pips1> I understand there are pros and cons about moin vs. drupal but I think ogra and JaneW are right, it comes down to the question who owns and drives it...
<pips1> JaneW, right
<flint> pips1, keep in mind that I am a rabid zope freak, (taking a zope 3 course with Richter!) and I keep my passion under control drupal is rightous but they made a call.
<JaneW> this was 'resolved' last week
<JaneW> however nothing has been done with either yet afaik
<flint> I was heartbroken that zope 2 did not make the cut :^)
<JaneW> pips1: if you can commit to it I am not opposed to you putting something together which can be voted on
<pips1> flint, zope is cool, but it always depends on what your goals are... :-)
<mhz> but, if there is time and willingness isn't better to use time resource in helping with dapper stuff?
<mhz> or dapper complements?
<mhz> .oO(hmm, maybe not 'complements' but complementary material)
<mhz> jsgotangco: Interrogation!
<flint> JaneW, the impression I am beginning to get is that you want to use the "gentlemen start you engines" project management approach.  If someone does something well you will embrace it.
<pips1> JaneW, yes, ok, I think that's what we should do... I spend the next two weeks with getting a "drupal edubuntu site demo" and then let's vote about it.. if people prefer to go the moin/ubuntu way after that, it's fine with me...
<jsgotangco> yes
<JaneW> flint: this is a community project (apart from possibly ogra) I can't really make anyone do anything
<flint> pips1, i was unserious about zope, as I have no intention of investing any time in developing the site I just want to use it.  I am good with the demo idea.
<mhz> ogra: if I finish XFCE theming next week, could you make it available for dapper time?
<jsgotangco> flint, we're volunteers
<jsgotangco> ogra and JaneW are the only ones paid to do this
<JaneW> flint: all I can do is hope they are excited enough by what needs to be done to want to help, and to harness that it;s something we can use
<ogra> mhz, i can package it, but i think janimo would be the better guy to ask about xfce temes 
<JaneW> it;s=into
<mhz> ogra: sure, but I mean this is XFCE edubuntu theme
<JaneW> flint: granted PMing the ubuntu project is more work but FAR easier
<ogra> yes, we can package xfce-edubuntu-theme for universe, no problem with that ... main will need a main inclusion report and a review ... 
<neuralis> janew, ogra: i am happy to provide drupal hosting on a well-connected server, and ssh access for edubuntu developers.
<flint> JaneW, what is in it for the perpertrator of this web site beyond bragging rights, think of some excellent reward.  sometthing that will forever grant bragging rights imho.
<pips1> Can I get some thumbs up/votes on me giving drupal a spin for a demo we all vote on in two weeks?
<jsgotangco> you're given an edubuntu.org forwarder hehe
<jsgotangco> joke
<mhz> pips1: but, if there is time and willingness isn't better to use time resource in helping with dapper stuff? and leave drupal/moin voting for Abril 27th and on
<flint> mhz, not a lot we can do about the upstream breakage eh ollie?
<JaneW> sorry I am in decision paralysis on this one
<mhz> ogra: okis, thx,I'll try t find time to finish it durinf bnext week
<JaneW> the camp is divided
<ogra> JaneW, flip a krugerrand ? 
<pips1> mhz, well, i've made a headstart with drupal (it's running a test machine of mine) and I want to test drive it for my own good, too ;-)
<JaneW> ogra: yeah right, I have a huge pile right here ;)
<flint> JaneW, I advise going for a demo.  what can it hurt?  Oliver what do you think (i don't care is an optioinal answer :^).
<ogra> heh, i knew you all have them in buckets :)
<JaneW> I think mhz, pips1, hno73 and highvoltage have to 'meet' and decide once and for all, it's their combined project after all
<ogra> flint, sure ...
<ogra> JaneW, ++
<flint> JaneW, good idea.
<pips1> JaneW, that's four people, we need an uneven number ;-)
<JaneW> ok I will set up a meeting for friday 12:00 utc, anyone who cares can be there, and we can hash it out for the last time
<flint> throw all the web-heads in a room and make them play "tag"!
<flint> JaneW, that's when I wash my hair!!
<JaneW> pips1: well which ever camp manages to round up the most supporters wins
<JaneW> AND they get to do the damn work afterwards too! :)
<jsgotangco> JaneW, it shouldn't exceed 2 hours, it'll clash with docteam meeting at 14UTC
<jsgotangco> they could do it in 
<JaneW> 1 hour at the most 
<jsgotangco> #edubuntu
<jsgotangco> :D
<JaneW> jsgotangco: ok yes, we can stay in #edub
<pips1> JaneW, flint : no joke, on friday I have an appointment with a hair dresser! :-D
<JaneW> I'll send a mail
<pips1> JaneW, is another date/time ok? if not, I'll move my appointment, no prob
<flint> JaneW, high noon, show down at the #edubuntu corrale... this is the stuff of legend! 
<JaneW> of course if you have stuff to demo to support your arguments all the better...
<flint> pips1, i cannot breath i am laughing too hard...
<JaneW> pips1: well earlier is too early for the states...
<pips1> flint, LOL
<JaneW> tomorrow?
<mhz> it depends on hno73 possibilities
<pips1> what, that gives me today to come up with a demo?!
* pips1 has sweat breaking loose
<JaneW> pips1: monday....?
<pips1> monday sounds better :-)
<mhz> .oO("tell me why I dont like Mondays..")
<JaneW> mhz: are you ok with this?^
<pips1> mhz, hehe
<mhz> JaneW: why not, but I am concerned about 2 things
<flint> pips1, friday has more romance to it.  talk to your coiffure maybe.
<pips1> flint, sorry for spoiling your friday romance, friday is hair day! ;-)
<JaneW> I think monday is good, we need to focus on flight 4 this week anyway
<JaneW> ok anything else?
<JaneW> time nearly up
<JaneW> I will send that mail now, 12:00UTC monday
* ogra would like to hear mhz's concerns ...
<jsgotangco> coll with me
<pips1> monday, 12 UTC on #edubuntu, then?
<mhz> JaneW: highvoltage did work on something and I have no clue why we didn' test it,  AND hno73 has dedicated a lot of work on preparing a Moin version once decided drupal was not the option. So.. too much wasted time and resources
<mhz> ogra: those are
<ogra> yup
<JaneW> mhz: I do agree with you
<mhz> it's like we tell ogra... you know, we wont release edubuntu
<mhz> we'll use RPMs now
<flint> so I should get to work on the zope python based drupal moin emulator on my zope 3 platform eh?
<ogra> mhz, haha
<mhz> flint: lol
<pips1> mhz, maybe it's better if we talk with hno73 and highvoltage...
<jsgotangco> afaik hno73 is on a roll with moin as we have started with theopencd site and ubuntu
<flint> pips1, i want you to know that I feel left out and hurt...
<mhz> pips1: well, yes, of course we must, we owe them at leastr that
<flint> pips1, and relieved :^) 
<jsgotangco> we're even *this* close to having the whole moin de run off the cd on the livecd
<JaneW> I think mhz, pips1, hno73 and highvoltage have to 'meet' and decide once and for all, it's their combined project after all
<JaneW> as I said before
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mhz> well, okis
<pips1> flint, I don't see you having a prob of not getting heard ;-)
<flint> ogra, final prophesy, when do we get a testable flight 4?  
<mhz> I'd prefer hno73 and highvoltage set the time. they have spent the most efforts on website issues sor far
<flint> pips1, point well taken and graciously accepted!
<jsgotangco> ogra, can we change the menu System -> About Ubuntu to About Edubuntu?
<JaneW> ok meeting over
<ogra> flint, i predict you if the moon goes blue and the swans fly south-east 
<flint> pips1, I do want to stay away from your kitchen, I just want to eat the resulting meal.
<ogra> :P
<JaneW> I will scribe a tactful e-mail now
<ogra> no idea, really
<mhz> JaneW: thx for the order ;)
<pips1> JaneW, ah!
<JaneW> mhz: this group is a herd of cats....
<ogra> flint, i hope this week ...
<flint> ogra, how did elkner get by the chroot problem on flight 3?
<ogra> (everyone does)
<ogra> flint, did he have one ? 
<flint> did he do something terrible like nfs over from the previous flight?
<flint> ogra, ollie he is RUNNING it live in his class!!!
<ogra> i have no idea, i didnt hear anything from him...
<ogra> dapper ? 
<ogra> he runs dapper in a production environment ????
<flint> ogra, would I kid you about a thing like this?  Dapper indeed!
<ogra> creazy guy ... 
<mhz> ogra: just one last question regarding slibs artwork.. will we have a mascot for ubuntu dapper?
<ogra> it can break every now and then 
<flint> ogra, I will check, but the man has the worst case of versionitus this side of fate.
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<jsgotangco> BEAUTIFUL FONTS
<ogra> mhz, i doubt that
<flint> I have a duck on crutches as artwork hold on i will get the url...
<JaneW> mhz: apparently it's the last of the human themed releases
<ogra> flint, i'm *working* on it ... i often upload packages with feaqtures i taest later in a bunch ...
<mhz> jsgotangco: can we meet sometime to talk about quickie?
<jsgotangco> mhz, i don't want to do a quickie with you jeezz
<JaneW> LOL
<ogra> flint, so it can easily break ...
<flint> check out http://www.flint.com/wvus
<JaneW> you two take it outside!
<mhz> jsgotangco: lol! why not?
<flint> JaneW, no, you have to look at my duck!
<flint> ogra, this duck can be rehabilitated.  It used to be the mascot for the radio station i ran in college...
<ogra> hehe
<mhz> jsgotangco: but we have to find a proper name ;)  Breezy Budger, Dapper Drake, etc
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> mhz, i'll try to think of a wiki page later
<flint> JaneW, i think it is a fine duck.  it talks to handicapped access....
<flint> JaneW, ok i give up.
<JaneW> mhz: "Our current plan is that the Dapper Drake (Ubuntu 6.04 if we hit our April 2006 release date goal) will be the last of this first "set" of releases. So post-Dapper we have the opportunity to define a new "feel" or overarching theme. It would be unlikely to be... blue. But it might be substantially different to the current Human theme. For the moment, let's stay focused on the road to Dapper, polish up the existing Human theme
<JaneW>  to the max for that, and then break new ground post-Dapper."
<mhz> jsgotangco: anyways, could we talk about it later?
<jsgotangco> sure
<JaneW> mhz: from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth
<mhz> jsgotangco: like the contents and the division of them?
<jsgotangco> yes
<ogra> (note the *might* in that sentence)
<mhz> JaneW: yeah
<jsgotangco> we'll use pink next time
<flint> i am a bit miffed that no one likes my... duck. :^(
<flint> lol
<mhz> jsgotangco: oh, you are in a night time now?
<JaneW> flint: I am sure even you could see that a handicapped duck would not be the imagery of choice for a robust 5-year-support release.
<jsgotangco> mhz, 9PM to be precise
<mhz> jsgotangco: so, hmm which UTC is good gor you at my time ?
<flint> JaneW, sniff... oh ok...
<ogra> flint, i like it ...
<mhz> jsgotangco: at my time =  considerin gmy time
<jsgotangco> mhz, i can do 3 hours more starting now
<flint> ogra, thanks ollie let get a cigi.
<ogra> yes :)
<ogra> and a coffee
<flint> indeede
<jsgotangco> flint, i would be gracious with a PPC
<jsgotangco> heh
<pips1> flint, saw your duck and died! 
<jsgotangco> joke
<jsgotangco> s/gracious/grateful
<flint> pips1, hash duck joke!
<flint> JaneW, this is another example of why you should not cast your ducks before swine! :^)
<JaneW> ok let's get the duck out of here...
<pips1> LOL
<mhz> jsgotangco: hmmm, I have to cook quickly then. Tell you what let's say 14:00 UTC and if I can't make it (house stuff) then 24 UTC ?
<flint> JaneW, I vow to never again expose my duck in this foum.
<mhz> flint: flint, fint
<jsgotangco> mhz, no problem no rush dude
<flint> \foum\forum
<mhz> jsgotangco: rush? yes, for me. It will mean I have to write sthe stuff in 2 languages
<pips1> shouldn't we all duck out and dip into #edubuntu now?
<ogra> yup
<flint> ok then thanks for the excellent meeting Jane!
* jsgotangco flees
<mhz> yeahm thanks everyone
<pips1> cheerio
<TheMuso> Hey heno.
<heno> TheMuso: hi :)
* heno is Henrik/hno73
* TheMuso wakes himself up. :)
<TheMuso> I know.
<heno> :)
<heno> I got tired of the numbers in the nick
<TheMuso> Fair enough. I recognised your ISP designation for your connection.
<heno> ah, ok
* TheMuso shoudl really burn the latest daily of the ubuntu live CD to have a look at the a11y stuff on the main boot screen, and see how it is implemented.
<heno> Yes, I'd be interested to see how that works for you
<heno> The text might be a bit small
<TheMuso> I'll see once it is burnt.
<TheMuso> Do you know whether anybody else is coming?
<heno> No. Anybody here? :)
<heno> we might be able to catch dholbach
<dholbach> hello
<Seveas> don't drop him
<dholbach> i thought the meeting was thursday :)
<heno> Jason was writing on the list earlier today. What's his nick?
<heno> dholbach: it's thursday fror TheMuso
<TheMuso> jgrieves I think, but he is not currently online.
<heno> ah, ok. well, we can keep it short
<TheMuso> At approx 6:10 AM. :)
<heno> I think things are comming together fairly well, technically
<dholbach> sorry, was just on the phone
<heno> we even have an agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<dholbach> rock n roll! :)
<dholbach> i suppose it's too late for jsgotangco :)
<heno> I keep pushing on about the Live CD, but I think it's very important
<dholbach> (tried to remember who else attended our meetings the last times)
<TheMuso> mhz, kjcole I think it was.
<dholbach> heno: I think it'S important as well.
<dholbach> TheMuso: right.
<heno> It's the main vehicle for distribution now, and so it's 100% mainstream
<heno> (to the extent Linux is mainstream ...)
* TheMuso is burning the latest daily atm.
<heno> I think if we get this one right we will attract lots of users and contributors for the next cycle
<TheMuso> I agree.
<heno> It may not be scratching each of our personal itches perfectly, but I think strategically is is key
<dholbach> I just had a look at the LiveCD page, what is the flite reader?
<dholbach> Oh, I never realized we had that one.
<heno> dholbach: we had to go with flite instead of Festival due to disc space
<heno> 8mb vs 40mb
<dholbach> Right. :-)
<TheMuso> Flite is an alternate speech synthesizer which is smaller than festival. However, it can not be used with gnopernicus and gnome-speech at this time, unless someone writes a driver for it.
<TheMuso> Unless there is something I don't know about.
<heno> TheMuso: really? gah! it doesn't work with gnopernicus?
<heno> that's bad news
<TheMuso> No. There is no flite driver in gnome-speech.
<TheMuso> We could get it to work if we were to add the latest speech-dispatcher release, as well as the speech-dispatcher gnome-speech driver, which could use flite that way.
<heno> And I assume it's not a 2-day job
<dholbach> I keep trying on getting gnome-orca in, but python-at-spi didn't hit the archive yet. :/
<TheMuso> No, I certainly don't hink so, as the gnome-speech drivers are not very simple.
<TheMuso> dholbach: Maybe were should leave that for another release, as it is still being developed, and IMO it needs a better user interface before it can be considered an option.
<dholbach> Althought I'm not sure, how much better orca would be or if it'd do the job we wanted it to.
<dholbach> TheMuso: ok.
<heno> So, that's a fly in the ointment. How big are the speech dispatcher things?
<dholbach> TheMuso: I'll still try to get it in, it can't hurt to have it in Universe and people testing it.
<TheMuso> dholbach: True.
<heno> Orca is the future I guess though. So Dapper+1 should be good
<TheMuso> heno: Speech dispatcher is not very big as far as I know, but we need the 0.6 branch, as well as the gnome-speech driver, which as far as I know, should be in GNOME CVS.
<dholbach> TheMuso: On the NewSoftware page you pointed out you were working on some other packages - do you want me to look at those?
<TheMuso> ?
<Mithrandir> heno: can we touch bases at some point wrt accessability and the live cd?  I know I should do something to enable it, but I can't remember what.
<heno> so it might be fairly instable stuff, and it's getting late in the cycle ...
<TheMuso> dholbach: Packages?
<TheMuso> heno: Yeah.
<TheMuso> I know.
<dholbach> TheMuso: wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/NewSoftware
<heno> Mithrandir: sure. Press F4 for a start
<dholbach> TheMuso: "Speech Dispatcher" and "gnome-speech driver for speech-dispatcher"
<Mithrandir> heno: tomorrow, possibly?
<TheMuso> Yeah I see it. Trouble is, that the newer driver is probably in GNOME cvs now.
<heno> Mithrandir: sure that'd be good
<dholbach> TheMuso: which gnome module is that?
<TheMuso> gnome-speech
<heno> btw, there is a screenshot here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreatFeaturesOfUbuntu?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=AT-boot-menu.png
<dholbach> TheMuso: i make a note to look at it
<TheMuso> dholbach: I am going to check the latest gnome-speech source in dapper as well, and then check CVS.
<dholbach> TheMuso: cool
<heno> So, you guys who know this better TheMuso, dholbach what are the chances we can get a screen reader working on the CD for dapper?
<dholbach> I'll try to have a look at the other packages on NewSoftware too, because we'll have to have them in for Feature Freeze (Feb 23rd)
<heno> Do we need a backup plan?
<TheMuso> heno: I am thinking we might, because there is a chance that others won't agree in firstly pushing a new release of a universe package up to main, and then requesting the addition of what seems to be only CVS code at the moment.
<dholbach> What are screen reader alternatives we have?
<TheMuso> For GNOME, none really. It is the gnome-speech package that is giving us these problems at the moment.
<TheMuso> dholbach: I am just checking gnome-speech out of CVS now.
<TheMuso> As it is not in the latest dapper package.
<heno> The good new is that if the software isn't perfect it doesn't affect a large number of people
<mjg59> Fixing gnome-speech to use a sensible TTS would also help dasher
<TheMuso> There is a chance that the GNOME devs may hold off including it in gnome-speech for a while anyway.
<heno> if you see what I mean. It's not the kernel
<TheMuso> I know what you mean. We will still certainly be able to fulfill the other profiles.
<heno> mjg59: so you will help :) ?
<TheMuso> dholbach: What is the story on the XDamage extension bug for gnome-mag that I submitted?
<TheMuso> I don't remember seeing anything about it being added.
<mjg59> We're not bound by upstream decisions. If there's a compelling functionality reason to include unreleased upstream code, we should do so
<mjg59> heno: I'm short on time right now, I'm afraid
<dholbach> TheMuso: The problem was, that for some video drivers it made gnome-mag completely unusable
<mjg59> (And have to go for food now, back later)
<dholbach> TheMuso: i can check it with a new version again
<dholbach> TheMuso: daniels said that it surely might be an X problem
<TheMuso> dholbach: That might be a good idea, as it makes it work much better.
<dholbach> Ok
<dholbach> I'll do that
<TheMuso> Looks like the speech-dispatcher driver is indeed in CVS.
* TheMuso is checking out new live CD now.
<dholbach> TheMuso: that sounds promising
<dholbach> hi jbailey :)
<jbailey> =)
<jbailey> Sorry I'm late. =)
<heno> OK, so in reference to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/LiveCDsettings that means there there is still full uncertainty about #3, but we should be able to settle the other 5 quite easily
<heno> jbailey: hi :)
<TheMuso> heno: That sounds about right,.
<heno> So in my last testing of the Live CD it didn't actually do any AT stuff
<TheMuso> Right.
<heno> that depends on us completing that page and communicating it to Kamion
<heno> Shall we skip to point #3?
<heno> It's related to the CD
<heno> It would be helpful to have some introductory info on it
<heno> for those who are using these features
<TheMuso> heno: I also think we need something about just what is possible with the accessibility tools, as there will be people who haven't used them before.
<heno> I've made a start here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/Intro
<dholbach> heno: a "start"! That looks good! :-)
<heno> right. I think it should be clearly divided though into 'What is currently available on the CD you are using"
<heno> and "What can be istalled later"
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<dholbach> yeah, that sounds good
<dholbach> heno: you think we should talk to the doc team to get this into ubuntu-docs as well?
<TheMuso> One thing I am not sure about in relation to flite, is whether flite itself is multilingual.
<TheMuso> ...I don't think it is, but I could be wrong.
<heno> dholbach: That's probably a good idea
<heno> TheMuso: AFAIK it's not
<TheMuso> I understand about size, but how will that help non-english speakers while installing?
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/Guide is much more detailed, but also needs more work
<heno> it needs to be updated for dapper and fleshed out
<heno> that is where doc vteam help would be most useful
<dholbach> I'll talk to mdke about it
<heno> How many languages does festival have? 8-10?
<TheMuso> I don't know, but it has more than flite does.
<heno> how well do the speech engines read out other languages? Can it be grokked at all?
<heno> Sounds like that would need to go on a DVD?
<TheMuso> heno: I don't know, as I have had no reason to use other languages.
<dholbach> American English, British English, Italian, Castilian Spanish, general multi-lingual speech synthesis    judging by   apt-cache search festival
<heno> It is a problem, but we have to start somewhere. Operating systems need to improve on both AT and translations
<TheMuso> Yeah true.
<dholbach> Yeah.
<heno> but I think including what we have is what we have to do
<heno> we could try to make a case for the 40mb Festival of course
<heno> but I'm not very optimistic
* dholbach neither.
<TheMuso> Thats understandable.
<heno> Of course with our own live derivative we can put whatever we want on there
<dholbach> at least it'll be on the DVD
<heno> That would be extremely easy
<dholbach> althought that's not going to be available via shipit
<TheMuso> heno: I have a few ideas for the derivative as it is.
<heno> just dump some WinFOSS and add Festival
<heno> TheMuso: cool
<heno> I think it's important to keep in mind that people like Kamion are spending time on this because vit's going into the main version
<TheMuso> Yeah
<heno> which makes for great features that we can then easily use other places
<heno> So a minimal offering may not be a bad thing i the overall picture
<heno> because the infrastructure gets put in place
<dholbach> I just had a look at "Live CD Testing"
<dholbach> do we have kind of a Test Plan?
<heno> dholbach: not explicitly, no
<heno> weneed to test each of those 6 features on the CD
<dholbach> If we had at least some things we want people to look at, I'd link it from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing
<heno> we've been testing the actual apps on installed dapper systems so far
<dholbach> I'll forward your gok bug to upstream later. :)
<heno> OK, so: fire up the CD 6 times, and see if it does ABC ...
<heno> dholbach: did you confirm it?
<TheMuso> We may have to wait until the CD is more stable to do testing. I can't boot it atm. It freezes during bootup.
<heno> dholbach: is it a gok or gnome bug?
<dholbach> heno: it did work for me - so I asked you back for the versions
<dholbach> heno: I think it'd important to get in touch with upstream asap about it.
<heno> dholbach: yep. I'll fit it in thanks. Latest dapper though
<dholbach> heno: so they'll tell us, what to test next
<dholbach> heno: ah ok, that suffices
<heno> TheMuso: hm. I guess fligh4 should be better
<heno> expected vthis week
<TheMuso> Is that due any time soon?
<dholbach> yes
<TheMuso> Ah right.
<dholbach> although there's no fixed date i know of
<heno> I'll write a simple testing plan page before then
<dholbach> heno: That's great
<heno> (unless it's in a few hours ...)
<dholbach> heno: I already added Testing/ to the dapper flight 4 announce, I'll make a special note about a11y additionally
<heno> yay!
<heno> I've added it to the flight4 info page as well and Great Features of Ubuntu
<dholbach> Cool. :-)
<heno> so it should feature on the flash demo if that gets made
<heno> Right. So I think we've covered some good ground
<dholbach> Just to check back: is there any other software I should have a look in and package?
<heno> there is quite a bit of stuff we should catch up on amongst ourselves, by ML, email, phone
<dholbach> You'd need to tell me before Feb 23rd. :-)
<dholbach> Yeah.
<dholbach> Thanks TheMuso and heno for your initiative and involvement.
<heno> so that means completing this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/LiveCDsettings is quite urgent
<heno> dholbach: thanks for your involvement and packing!
<TheMuso> The profiles look good to me, it is just the speech implementation that could be sticky as far as I can see.
<dholbach> I didn't do much for the a11y team in the last days, but I'm very happy about our team - the amount of subscribers to the mailing lists is still rising, so there's a lot of interest
<heno> There is still some work to be done in identifying the right config settings in the various files
<TheMuso> heno: Yeah true.
<dholbach> We're 35 people on the ML.
<raphink> still one minute to get here 
<heno> dholbach: what's the best way to track down config flags?
<raphink> :)
<raphink> yeah
<dholbach> heno: config flags like what?
<TheMuso> heno: Do you mean gconf?
<dholbach> heno, TheMuso: maybe we should move to #ubuntu-accessibility
<heno> ok
<TheMuso> Fine by me.
<pef> hello :)
<jpatrick> bonsoir pef
<mruiz> hi 
<raphink> yop pef 
<pef> raphink: salut :)
<pef> ca fait plaisir de voir de plus en plus de francophones :] 
<raphink> pef: clair :)
<raphink> pef: d'autant que Tonio est galement MOTU depuis hier ;)
<raphink> pef: ce qui fait 3 francophones parmi les 5 MOTUs Kubuntu je crois ;)
<jbailey> Le rendez-vous des MOTU c'est en Franais?
<jpatrick> times like this when I wish I had better french skills
<raphink> jbailey: :)
<dholbach> jbailey: tout les jours - c'est comme #ubuntu-desktop
<dholbach> c'est la conspiration franaise
<jbailey> dholbach: Ooo, je ne savais pas ca.  Peut-etre je passerai plus de temps au #ubuntu-desktop. =)
<pef> raphink: excellent :)
<dholbach> jbailey: Bien sur!
<raphink> dholbach: we're in a french team MOTU take over
* raphink thinks a bit about mixing the words to make more sense
<raphink> like...
<raphink> French MOTU-take-over team
<raphink> would make more sense maybe
<raphink> hmm hmm
<raphink> this is a quite place for an imminent meeting
<sistpoty> hi... sorry for being late
<jbailey> Communaut Francophone des Matre's de l'Univers.
<jbailey> -'
<raphink> sistpoty: it's ok the meeting has not begun yet
<raphink> jbailey: that sounds nice :)
<raphink> jbailey: I don't mind being part of it :)
<sistpoty> raphink: it didn't?
<Riddell> coup d'etats?
<raphink> sistpoty: not yet, seems everybody is here but we're kind of waiting for somethign to happen
<raphink> maybe for \sh...
<raphink> he usually opens meetings
<Riddell> is there an agenda?
<raphink> sure there is
<lfittl> Riddell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<sistpoty> do we want to start? (now that I'm here *g*)
<raphink> small agenda
<raphink> and I'm first 
<jbailey> raphink: Sure, but someone would have to check it for grammar before registering the launchpad team.
<raphink> jbailey: don't worry I could :p
<raphink> hi tseng 
<jbailey> raphink: Oh good.  My written grammar is pretty bad.
* tseng waves
<sistpoty> hi tseng
<raphink> ok 
<raphink> who is here for the meeting? raise hands
* sistpoty raises hand
<jbailey> I get away with it when speaking, but it's been way too long since I had to type complete sentenses online. =)
* dholbach raises hand too
* lfittl also raises his hand
* Riddell is Jonathan Riddell
* pef raises
* sistpoty is StefanPotyra
<Riddell> doing things properly
* pef is Loic Pefferkorn
<sistpoty> Riddell: :)
<raphink> who is going to make the report, raise foot!
* lfittl is Lukas Fittl
<raphink> (so as to not mix hands and feet)
* jpatrick is Jonathan Patrick Davies
* raphink is Raphal Pinson
* raphink thinks he didn't make it easier by asking to raise a foot...
<raphink> anyone volunteering for this task though?
<Nafallo> oh. MOTU-meeting :-)
* Kyral is
<Kyral> just in time :D
* Nafallo is ChristianBjlevik
* Kyral is Chris Peterman
<raphink> Kyral: you are volunteering for report ?
<Kyral> oh
* stratus is GustavoFranco
<raphink> that's nice of you :)
<Kyral> no
<raphink> lol
<Kyral> I'm lost lol
<Kyral> Just got outta class
<sistpoty> come on, please... any volunteering to do the minutes?
<raphink> ok we'll see about reports later then (or I'll do it if nobody will)
<raphink> we're already 15 minutes late :)
<stratus> i can't do the report because i'll leave in 30 minutes, sorry.
<raphink> np sistpoty I'll try and do it 
<sistpoty> raphink ++ :)
<raphink> hi ogra_ibook 
<raphink> ok well let's begin
<sistpoty> welcome ladies and gentlemen to just another motu-meeting... :)
<raphink> I'm first on the agenda
<dholbach> hey sistpoty
<sistpoty> hi dholbach
<raphink> I've been spamming the list and irc with this
<raphink> but just for the people who have not heard about it yet
<raphink> I wanted to introduce revu-tools, which is a set of tools based on siretart's revu-build
<raphink> to be initialy included in REVU, but that can be used on other machines
<raphink> to say it short, this is a collection of scripts that automatize review tasks, such as comparing the upstream tarball with the orig one, run build tests, etc.
<raphink> and generates a full report
<raphink> the idea now is maybe to use mdt in it to make is more complete, checking for example for the presence of the package in debian or in older versions of ubuntu
<raphink> any mdt dev is present?
<sistpoty> lucas: around?
* raphink feels everybody is sleeping already
<raphink> ...
<LaserJock> looks like lucas is 3 hrs idle. don't know if he's around
<Riddell> what is mdt?
<LaserJock> multi-distro-tools
<raphink> Riddell: mdt is Multi Distro TOols
* Riddell none the wizer
<stratus> raphink: I would like to suggest revu-tools package inclusion in the distro.
<raphink> it's a set of tools created by some MOTUs (not sure about who exactly)
<raphink> that is useful for merges mostly
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultiDistroTools
<sistpoty> stratus ++
<raphink> stratus: it's in NEW already, has been for a week
<stratus> raphink: oh, great!
<raphink> stratus: i've pinged elmo several times about it, but I have no news yet
<sistpoty> raphink: what do you think you'll gain from merging with mdt?
<Riddell> raphink: what's it written in?
<Riddell> NEW is generally slow this week, soyuz stuff
<raphink> sistpoty: being able to check for the presence of the package in Debian/Ubuntu already
<raphink> sistpoty: mostly
<stratus> raphink: do you plan to move from svn to bzr ?
<LaserJock> I use mdt for MOTU Science lists like http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/all_list.html
<raphink> stratus: well so far it's in the REVU svn
<stratus> raphink: i know, i know, i asked about the possibility of a move in the near future.
<Riddell> raphink: what's it written in?
<jpatrick> Riddell: bash
<Riddell> oh, lovely :)
<raphink> stratus: well this is a small project, aimed to fewpeople
<raphink> thanks jpatrick :)
<LaserJock> mdt is also bash with a little ruby mixed in
<raphink> although I hope to target DDs too
<Riddell> raphink: does it check for all copyright contributors being in debian/copyright?
<raphink> not yet Riddell 
<raphink> that could be a nice thing
<LaserJock> how would it do that
<Riddell> LaserJock: grep :)
<stratus> raphink: np
<raphink> Riddell: I'm wondering if that feature wouldn't be better in lintian or linda though
<Riddell> raphink: probably too unreliable
<LaserJock> Riddell: grep what? COPYING?
<sistpoty> Riddell: you are almost as extreme with ideas what a script can do as ajmitch ;)
<raphink> LaserJock: grep the headers
<stratus> btw, what's up with the REVU wiki articles? Just search for REVU in the wiki.
<jpatrick> LaserJock: grep -i copyright
<stratus> two articles (almost same content) in different urls and a broken redirect
<LaserJock> jpatrick: compare to what?
<raphink> stratus: no there is only one REVU page on the wiki
<raphink> stratus: and I take note of the broken redirect
<jpatrick> LaserJock: then compares debian/copyright and the src files?
<LaserJock> jpatrick: ok, I can kinda see that
<raphink> stratus: and correct it immediatly ;)
<stratus> raphink: heh :-)
<sistpoty> raphink: iirc revu2 also has some stuff to find out, if a sourcepackage is in debian or ubuntu... so you could also take a look at this
<raphink> sistpoty: indeed I'd like to try to embed revu-tools in revu2 more
<sistpoty> raphink: so imo it depends, whether you want revu-report integrated into revu2 or standalone... 
<raphink> sistpoty: including being able to run them from the web interface for reviewers
<LaserJock> sistpoty: btw, is there an ETA on REVU2?
<raphink> sistpoty: I'd like two branches 
<raphink> sistpoty: because I don't think DDs will use REVU2 very soon
<raphink> sistpoty: but I think we'd benefit from DDs using revu-tools
<sistpoty> LaserJock: should have been done for a long time... no honestly, we don't have an ETA right now :(
<LaserJock> ok
<sistpoty> raphink: ok
<raphink> any more questions? or shall we move on?
<sistpoty> raphink: I basically think, you should discuss inclusion to mdt with lucas, since he wrote it
<sivang> what was a motu meeting?
<raphink> sivang: the meeting is not done ;)
<raphink> s/done/over/
<sivang> ah
<raphink> ok well if there's no questions anymore, sistpoty you go :)
<sistpoty> ok, let's move on
<sistpoty> first item: allegro4.1 to 4.2 transition
<sivang> whose hosting the meeting?
<raphink> sivang: hosting?
<sistpoty> sivang: the motu's do
<sivang> err, directing :)
<raphink> sivang: seems I'm doing it so far 
<dholbach> sivang: sistpoty and the meeting is running atm
<raphink> ;)
<sivang> in previous ones ogra_ibook or dholbach did that :)
* sivang shuts up
<sistpoty> dholbach is uber_host ;)
<sistpoty> back to topic
* dholbach hands sistpoty the Mic back.
<raphink> :)
<sistpoty> has everybody read my mail to -motu about allegro4.1 -> 4.2?
<sistpoty> (or anybody)?
<stratus> nobody cared, but considering we did, move on :-)
* dholbach has another quick look. :)
* raphink hides
* LaserJock saw it
<raphink> sistpoty: what is allegro ? *blush*
<sistpoty> just for reference: debian unstable ships with allegro4.2 (and 4.1)... most of the games have deps on 4.2 now, since there are bugs filed against packages which depend on 4.1
<raphink> sistpoty: oh so this is not like a very big transition
<sistpoty> raphink: a library mostly for games
<stratus> yes, and for those who care it's sound related, so go figure..
<sistpoty> raphink: no, just some rdeps
<raphink> yep
<dholbach> do the games/allegro have bugs on them already?
<dholbach> does it seem sane, like stable?
<raphink> (btw: OT, the automake1.6 is not yet fully achieved)
<raphink> (automake1.6 transition)
<sistpoty> dholbach: haven't seen any till now, and since it's there for quite some time, I consider it stable
<stratus> there are just 7 games in Debian that depends on allegro 4.2
<stratus> checking for bugs...
<raphink> sistpoty: what does it bring?
<sistpoty> one good thing about the transition is, that we could undo it, since allegro4.2 and allegro4.1 would be present (different sourcepackages)
<sistpoty> raphink: being closer to debian
<raphink> k
<dholbach> and something supported
<dholbach> "supported", since closer to upstream
<sistpoty> thus, if bugs occur, we would be quite sure that they are in debian as well and could join the efforts on fixing
<raphink> sistpoty: so using allegro4.1 | allegro4.2 in Depends should be quite fine I guess
<raphink> sistpoty: ++
<sistpoty> raphink: erm... no... we should use liballegro4.2-dev as build-depends
<raphink> ah
<sistpoty> (so I'm not quite sure if liballegro-dev | liballegro4.2-dev will work as well, since liballegro4.2-dev replaces/conflicts liballegro-dev... anyone a clue?)
<stratus> FYI, there are no bugs involving allegro 4.2 in Debian packages that depends on it.
<sistpoty> thx stratus
<stratus> there are just bugs asking for allegro 4.2 transition, made in 7 of them already
<raphink> ok
<sistpoty> (well and I'm quite sure I could work a little bit in debian-games, since at least one game ftbfs currently, which i believe is in debian-games)
<raphink> seems good :)
<sistpoty> dholbach: what's your opinion about the transition?
<dholbach> If we have both library source packages in, we should run into no risk, if we can get rid of one of them, even better.
<raphink> +1
<sistpoty> we will have both sourcepackages :)... so any objections from anyone?
<sistpoty> ok, then I call it decided, we'll go for the transition :)
<sistpoty> shall we move on?
<raphink> ok
<raphink> sistpoty: do you want to create a transition page on the wiki?
<raphink> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Transitions
<stratus> raphink: which content exactly? information about ongoing transitions?
<raphink> yep, as done with other transitions there
<sistpoty> raphink: actually I want to testbuild the whole transition before doing it... if I'm finished with these steps I already have all changed packages at hand...
<sistpoty> raphink: so if noone objects, I would care for this transition
<raphink> sistpoty: you can use mdt for that :)
<raphink> sistpoty: sure :)
<stratus> raphink: i see
<raphink> ok then 
<sistpoty> raphink: mdt for what? I use apt-get in my unstable chroot :)
<sistpoty> next item?
<raphink> sistpoty: mdt for reverse dep and build all
<LaserJock> sistpoty: for listing dependent packages, etc.
* sistpoty will try it
<raphink> ok let's move on :)
<sistpoty> ok, next item is coordination of current work...
<raphink> huhu
<sistpoty> actually, I must admit, that I'm beginning to loose overview of who works on what package and what syncs are already requested
<lfittl> wiki page seems like a good idea to solve that
<sistpoty> and I believe that we might start to do duplicate work, if we don't organize a little bit :)
<raphink> stratus: you've the one who made a wiki page for the UVF status right?
<stratus> raphink: yes
<LaserJock> sistpoty, more than SyncRequests and UVFStatus provide?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: is syncrequests current?
<LaserJock> yes
* sistpoty looks
<LaserJock> dholbach had me make last week I think
<dholbach> had you make? :)
<sistpoty> LaserJock: I don't think it is current... (at least I need to insert my syncs there *g*)
<stratus> oh, wait
<sistpoty> LaserJock: imo we need also a table who is doing work on a package right now
<LaserJock> sistpoty: well, people have to use it ;-)
<LaserJock> sistpoty: what kind of work?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: and to know of it's existance :)
<LaserJock> sure
<stratus> the UVFStatus and SyncRequests lack a better explanation about why there aren't just one page
<sistpoty> LaserJock: for example work on a package with unmet dependencies
<stratus> SyncRequests does a better job informing that 'this is not used for merges...'
<LaserJock> stratus SyncRequests isn't for UVF exceptions
<LaserJock> sistpoty: what we could really use is a list like we used for merging on tiber
<stratus> LaserJock: yes, i know. I'm just thinking about the 'foo' wiki reader.
<LaserJock> wiki pages aren't great for that kind of work flow tracking
<sistpoty> LaserJock: grml... (means work for me *g*)
<raphink> LaserJock: yes
<raphink> sistpoty: means more work in the beginning, less in the future
<LaserJock> stratus: I see, it was more for people who already knew what they were doing, but yes it isn't very discriptive
<stratus> LaserJock: entire work flow tracking no, but just for current status it's, IMHO.
<LaserJock> sistpoty: maybe you need to delegate ;-)
<LaserJock> stratus: current status of what?
<raphink> sistpoty: delegate your work ... to elmo for example :)
<sistpoty> LaserJock: well if s.o. is willing to create s.th. I wouldn't mind at all :)
<LaserJock> raphink: lol, nooooo
<stratus> LaserJock: you said that wiki pages aren't great for "that kind of work flow tracking".
<raphink> LaserJock: ;)
<sistpoty> LaserJock, raphink: on the left of the merge-web-tool is the link to it's bzr-repo ;)
<sistpoty> does anyone know how usable the search-function of malone is up to now?
<LaserJock> for what?
<dholbach> sistpoty: what do you want to know?
<raphink> sistpoty: depends
<sistpoty> maybe we could also (ab)use malone-bugs and the search function to create a list who is doing work on a package
<raphink> sistpoty: it often crashes and is not very reliable imo
<raphink> sistpoty: a list on _a_ package??
<sistpoty> raphink: idea is: if you work on a package, you file a (specific) bug to malone...
<LaserJock> basically, I think a question is should we be opening bugs for everything we do?
<sistpoty> raphink: then you could search for all these bugs to know which packages are worked on
<raphink> I get the idea sistpoty, just as for merges
<dholbach> Hm, I don't see the problem to fix. Can somebody help me?
<sivang> sistpoty: using the autmatic merge bug filer right?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: if it provides us with s.th. to handle the workflow in a good matter, I don't see a problem with it
<sistpoty> sivang: eventually
<raphink> sistpoty: since merges are not done normally during UVF, why not use motu-mergers for that?
<sistpoty> raphink: hm... that is quite confusing but would give us what we want :)
<dholbach> Which workflow are we trying to fix for which reason?
<LaserJock> maybe we need at motu-workflow LP team that would go to a motu-workflow list? kinda like a svn commit ML
<sistpoty> dholbach: that two persons doing work on the same package
<dholbach> like in "bug fixing"?
<raphink> dholbach: we are trying to find a way to work properly on UVF exceptions I think, not duplicating the work
<raphink> dholbach: from what I understood
<sistpoty> dholbach: or in fixing unmet deps, yse
<dholbach> assigning the bug to people should be way to go
<sistpoty> raphink: no, I'm not talking about UVF exceptions here
<LaserJock> well, there is lots of work, bug fixing, unmet deps, FTBFS, merges, syncs
<raphink> sistpoty: oh ok
<dholbach> and subscribe MOTU so they still get the mails on universe-bugs, no?
<raphink> sure dholbach 
<LaserJock> dholbach: do we want to create that much noise on universe-bugs?
<sistpoty> dholbach: actually I'd like to see a list of which packages are currently worked on
<dholbach> LaserJock: If you're going to fix a bug that's in Malone, you SHOULD assign it to you - that's not more noise than there is anyway atm.
<sistpoty> (imo that would be very easy to look up, before I start working on a package)
<dholbach> Untriaged bugs and Unassigned bugs is a good way atm.
<LaserJock> dholbach: i'm talking about opening a bug for every upload, syn request, etc.
<dholbach> We should step back from assigning bugs to MOTU
<sistpoty> dholbach++
<dholbach> subscribing motu or getting motu on the default subscribers list is a good idea
* raphink assigns bugs to himself or to people he knows to be specialized in something
<dholbach> assigning = commiting to work on it
<dholbach> is that a definition we can live with?
<sistpoty> dholbach: sounds good to me
<LaserJock> raphink: really, I was under the impressions that we didn't want to assign anything to a particular person only MOTU
* raphink I can't live commited to doing work :p
<dholbach> LaserJock: But we do uploads for a reason - it's better to look at reasons/use-cases (like bug, update, ...) than at uploads
<sistpoty> well, I think I could rape^Wreprogram the current merge list quite fast, to be able to handle unmet deps... do you think this might be worth a try?
<LaserJock> ok, but I think the questions remains, should we be using Malone for tracking MOTU work?
<dholbach> LaserJock: for which use-cases?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: *if* it provides us with what we need, why not use it?
<dholbach> aren't unmetdeps mostly something for saying "I poke <package xy>" in #ubuntu-motu?
<LaserJock> I'm talking about tracking all MOTU (basically everything we do and upload for) whether it is really a "bug" or not
<LaserJock> all MOTU activity, that is
<sistpoty> dholbach: I'm sometimes working on a package when I'm not online... 
<LaserJock> if I want a package synced, should I open a bug
<dholbach> LaserJock: please try to break it up in use-cases - it's easier to discuss separate issues
<dholbach> sistpoty: right
<sistpoty> dholbach: and you don't know, if somebody started working on it, but didn't finish yet (if it takes longer)
<LaserJock> if I have a fix for an unmet dep should I open a bug?
<dholbach> the problem with locking on stuff is that some stuff keeps being locked
<sistpoty> dholbach: yes, good point... 
<dholbach> but for important thigns (which *are* problems) we should probably have a bug
<sistpoty> maybe bug filing might help us with this, since we know the date s.o. started working on it?
<stratus> well guys, i need to go now
<sistpoty> cya stratus
<raphink> ciao stratus 
<LaserJock> I think moving work workflow off the wiki is a good thing but I'm unclear as to what I (and other MOTU Wannabes) are supposed to do.
<LaserJock> in the case of a bug fix it is clear
<sistpoty> ok, got a proposal: I empty the merge-list and for every package with unmet deps, a bug "package is uninstallable in dapper" should be filed, if s.o. starts working on it
<sistpoty> what do you think?
<sistpoty> then we have both a list for fast lookup and bugs in malone...
<sistpoty> in the bugs, we could state, if the package is to be synced (and also list it in the wiki) or close it, once a new version is uploaded
<LaserJock> and for FTBFS? "package does not build from source"?
<psusi> fails to build from source
<sistpoty> a bug with "package FTBFS" or something... then it could also be handled by the list
<dholbach> guys, I'll be out for a walk now, sorry.
<dholbach> bbl
<sistpoty> cya dholbach
<raphink> later dholbach 
<sistpoty> let's try to summarize the options we have... and vote for the best one
<sistpoty> (a) no coordination necessary
<sistpoty> (b) wiki-page
<LaserJock> cya dholbach
<sistpoty> (c) bugs in malone
<dholbach> a 'motu' poll!
<sistpoty> (d) bugs in malone with merge-list abused as list who works on a package
<sistpoty> any other option?
<raphink> in the past I have gone for b+d, since it's still quite hard to search on malone
<raphink> sorry
<raphink> b+c
<raphink> hehe
<LaserJock> sistpoty: could we rename the list to workflow or something?
<raphink> I made myself a wiki page to coordinate the list of things to be done, and filed bugs for each
<sistpoty> LaserJock: sure, whatever you want ;)
<raphink> reporting the bug numbers to the wiki page
<sistpoty> (e) wiki-page and bugs as raphink just stated
<sistpoty> anything else?
<LaserJock> I think (d) is great if we can get away with it ;-)
<sistpoty> ok, if we have nothing more, then let's start voting :)
<raphink> ok
* raphink votes for e obviously :)
* sistpoty is unsure
<LaserJock> raphink: really?
<raphink> hmm sure
* sistpoty votes for (e)
<raphink> and so far I'm the only one to vote anyway
<raphink> ah no :)
<raphink> we're two :)
<LaserJock> I think wiki pages are very difficult for the number of items we are talking about
<sistpoty> (imo (e) is not as error-prone as (d)) *g*
* lfittl also votes for e
<LaserJock> woah, ok maybe I'm not understanding e then :(
<raphink> LaserJock: example of what I mean by (e) : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Transitions/Automake
<LaserJock> we would have 1 wiki page that has a list of every package being touched and the corresponding bug?
<raphink> yes
<raphink> that's the idea
<LaserJock> I mean for personal use it seems great but for the MOTU as a whole it seems a bit clunky
<raphink> depends on the amount of things that are gathered on this page I guess
<LaserJock> I'm talking package that is being touched
<raphink> you mean any touched package
<sistpoty> well, we had used the wiki for breezy... imo it's not perfect but at least does the job
<raphink> yes
<raphink> I think some people even automatize wiki pages
<raphink> they make scripts that generate lists and put them on the wiki iirc
<raphink> not sure about that though :S
<raphink> huhu
<sistpoty> oh, nice... only thing I had seen was a generated (but static) list in the wiki
<sistpoty> ok, any other votes?
<sistpoty> 3...
<sistpoty> 2...
<sistpoty> 1...
<raphink> lol
<sistpoty> poll closed :)
<sistpoty> the winner is (e)...
<raphink> it seems so
<raphink> barely, but still ;)
<raphink> lol
<sistpoty> next question is who will create the initial wiki-page?
<raphink> hmmpf
<sistpoty> if nobody goes for it, I will take care
<raphink> among the people who are still alive on this channel ....
* Nafallo is not :-P
<sistpoty> ok, then I'll do it ;)
<raphink> thanks sistpoty 
<raphink> ok I think if we're done with this, the meeting is over
<sistpoty> any other topics that aren't on the agenda?
<raphink> unless someone has something else to say
<sistpoty> raphink: we still need date/time for next meeting
* raphink shakes the dead body around to try and get an answer
<raphink> s/body/bodies/
<sistpoty> seems like everybody has fallen asleep *g*
<raphink> yes :(
<sistpoty> ok, when do we want to meet again?
<raphink> sistpoty: ok when do you and me meet around for a meeting?
<Nafallo> lol
<sistpoty> hehe... /me checks fridge for upcoming events
* raphink check fridge for food to cook
<raphink> sistpoty: I think this was the last MOTU meeting before FF
<sistpoty> yes
<raphink> so ...
<sistpoty> what about 28. Feb?
<raphink> or the first week of march
<raphink> I'm fine for the 28th Feb
<sistpoty> first week of march is fine for me as well
<raphink> sistpoty: shall we meet in a bar or so ? this is more convenient than IRC if we're 2 or 3 people ;)
<raphink> sistpoty: any date is fine by me, so just choose :)
<sistpoty> hehe
<sistpoty> we could choose 28. Feb... and have the time be discussed on motu-ml, what do you think?
<raphink> yep that's good
<raphink> let's go for the 28th of feb for now
<sistpoty> ok
<sistpoty> --> meeting over :)
<raphink> yep
<raphink> thank you everyone for having stayed so long 
<tseng> bye all
<LaserJock> sorry, my boss came by for a safety inspection
<raphink> hehe
* raphink is gonna copy and paste the log
<sistpoty> *g+
<LaserJock> ok, so should the SyncRequests wiki page be folded into this new page?
<LaserJock> or should we have one page for each major category?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: imo just one page
<LaserJock> so should I move the content of SyncRequests? have you made a page yet?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: no... will do in 30 Minutes probably
<LaserJock> I guess I could move this to #ubuntu-motu
<sistpoty> LaserJock: yes
<sistpoty> :)
<raphink> hop log saved :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-21
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Feb 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Feb 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 22 Feb 12
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Feb 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Feb 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 22 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<sorush20> hi guys
<sorush20> I think I finally made it for one of your meetings... 
<jsgotangco> 1 hour early :D
<sorush20> jsgotangco: so what are the ajenda? 
<sorush20> agenda 
<jsgotangco> sorush20: devel meeting, we're just going to watch...
<jsgotangco> see topic
<sorush20> what can we discuss in this meeting? 
<Seveas> sorush20, absolutely nothing 
<ogra> err ...
<ogra> jsgotangco, you know there is a development status meeting in 30min ? 
<jsgotangco> yes
<sorush20> how about creating more standard partitioning schemes? like /home /root /boot /swap  
<ogra> ah, sorry didnt read everything above 
<BenC> sorush20: this isn't the place for that
<sorush20> BenC: which brings me back to the qustion I asked what can we discuss here? 
<BenC> nothing, basically
<sorush20> development status? how developed is it ? 
<BenC> #ubuntu-devel is the correct place for bringing up technical discussion
<Seveas> sorush20, this meeting will make JaneW produce another nice colored report
<Seveas> that's the main purpose
<BenC> sorush20: the devel status metting is more or less a read-only pasting of what the core devs are doing
<JaneW> Seveas: you got it ;)
<BenC> it's a way for us to see what each other is up to
<BenC> and JaneW does make really spiffy reports
<JaneW> and to track consolidated dev progress
<Seveas> those reports should be more "present" like on the devel wikipage
<Seveas> so everyone can see how hard all devs are trying to rock 
<JaneW> Seveas: they are featured on the fridge
<JaneW> BenC: :))
<fabbione> sorush20: anyway the more sophisticated partition is already there if you tell the installer to go in expert mode.
<mdz> JaneW: all set?
<JaneW> mdz: nearly
<JaneW> mdz: about to start pinging
* pitti waves to JaneW 
<Riddell> hi JaneW 
* fabbione shakes his goddish fist against the sky and watches thunders hitting on earth
* dholbach is back from lunch too
<JaneW> doko, infinity, iwj, jbailey, jdub, hno73, kamion, keybuk, krstic, lathiat, Mithrandir, mvo, seb128, sivan, Kinnison : ping - meeting in 8 mins
<Mithrandir> seven minutes.
<Mithrandir> :-P
<Kamion> here
<JaneW> hi all
<mvo> JaneW: yes
* pitti checks the roof again, whether it's fabbione-proof
<jbailey> JaneW: Heya!
<JaneW> hi
<seb128> hey JaneW
* infinity pongs.
<JaneW> hno73 is not on IRC and ajmitch gave apologies
<JaneW> hi infinity 
<dholbach> JaneW: hno73 is heno
* Keybuk takes a typing break
<dholbach> JaneW: pinged him already
<JaneW> dholbach: oic
<JaneW> we are waiting for doko, iwj, lathiat, sivan & Kinnison 
<JaneW> fabbione: are you thor?
<fabbione> JaneW: eheh
<JaneW> mdz: I'll mail lathiat and sivang if they don't show up, I did ping them on #u-d too
<mdz> JaneW: otherwise we have a full complement?
<JaneW> doko and iwj still missing, have they been around today?
<fabbione> i did talk with doko no more than 11 minutes ago
<dholbach> JaneW: doko is here
<Kinnison> is it meeting time?
<JaneW> ok thanks
<mdz> yes, it is meeting time
<JaneW> Kinnison: yes, hold onto your hat
<mdz> from the top
<mdz> ajmitch isn't here
<mdz> so BenC is first
<JaneW> oh I have his hang on
<JaneW> ajmitch: Due to working away from home at the moment, the SELinux work is progressing
<JaneW> slowly & is unlikely to be ready by feature freeze. Policy packaging is being
<JaneW> done with Debian people now, and a patch to remove unneeded messages from 
<JaneW> sysvinit will be forthcoming in the next couple of days, so that selinux
<JaneW> support in sysvinit can be turned on again. 
<BenC> community-server-hardware-testing: Announcement was supposed to go out, but looks like I forgot to actually send it. Going out right after the meeting. Automated scripts are updated and runs will commence this evening.
<BenC> kernel bug work: SquashFS, USB, Firewire, Visual cleanups (quiet messages, cleanup PPC OF boot screens), ACPI, SMP issues, general bug maint.
<Keybuk> BenC: can I pick your brain wrt to the kernel's PCI Express implementation after this meeting?
<BenC> Keybuk: yeah, definitely
<JaneW> sorry about that, didn't have my c&p ready... mdz can I mark SELinux as deferred?
<mdz> JaneW: yes, thanks
<JaneW> mdz: ok done
<mdz> BenC: sabdfl raised an idea of making a very broad call for testing; it would be good to send him a mail regarding preventing-hardware-support-regressions and ensure that the instructions incorporate our plans there
<BenC> ok, can do
<mdz> BenC: ok, thanks
<Keybuk> SELinux in general has an annoying shouty factor, lots of people shout that they want it, but when you ask them for help, they vanish
<mdz> dholbach?
<dholbach> this week (done): GNOME 2.13.91, REVU DAY, random bugs, MOTU and a11y meeting
<dholbach> this week (todo): BUG DAY (please all attend - if you have specific ideas add them to UbuntuBugDay), bug triage, apt-get.org reviews
<dholbach> next week: more bug triage, apt-get.org reviews, help MOTUs to get stuff sorted for FeatureFreeze
<Keybuk> it's been disabled in sysvinit too
<mdz> dholbach: your /Testing announcement made LWN, by the way
<dholbach> mdz: yeah, i noticed :)
<mdz> good coverage
<mdz> dholbach: where and when for bug day?
<dholbach> and by the amount of bugs and people popping into #ubuntu-bugs i daresay some have read it :)
<dholbach> #ubuntu-bugs, Feb 17th
<seb128> tomorrow
<dholbach> so it IS HUG DAY in some days of the world already :)
<fabbione> dholbach: count on me tomorrow :)
<mdz> dholbach: do we have developers to cover the full day?
* dholbach high-fives fabbione
<mdz> if not, now is a good time to scare up volunteers ;-)
<dholbach> I'll be there.
<dholbach> (minus dogwalks ;))
<JaneW> lol
<fabbione> dholbach: if my wife is away i will be around for long time :)
<seb128> me too (but that's the same timezone)
<mdz> we should have a (rough) schedule to ensure that there is always someone there
<sivang> fabbione: heh
* BenC will be there
<infinity> I can idle in #ubuntu-bugs during my core hours for hug day.
<dholbach> if you'd just join #ubuntu-bugs and add stuff that you want to have triaged to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay that 'd be great
<mdz> dholbach: I suggest putting together a wiki page with approximate times when developers plan to be there, and recruiting to fill in the gaps
<dholbach> we have volunteers who just don't know where to start
<dholbach> mdz: good idea - i'll do it after the meeting
<fabbione> dholbach: point them at X :P
* sivang is here
<dholbach> fabbione: are the bugs already assigned to the team?
<fabbione> yes
<mdz> dholbach: the motu sync requests that you forward, are those basically all that you receive?  or are you filtering some additional requests?
<dholbach> fabbione: then I'll add it and think of an announcement text
<fabbione> ok
<dholbach> mdz: i want somebody to read through them and acknowledge, before i send them to you
<dholbach> mdz: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/UVFStatus keeps track
<dholbach> thanks to stratus, who replaced my local uvf.txt file :)
<dholbach> mdz: ah sorry, those were the UVF ones
<mdz> dholbach: if we can get a checklist in place to ensure that the requestors test, verify dependencies, etc., then it may be reasonable to delegate universe sync approvals to motu
<dholbach> mdz: we tried to set up a wiki page for the sync requests too, but i guess most people send them to elmo directly still
<mdz> dholbach: right, I meant UVF exceptions (most of which seem to be syncs)
<mdz> ok, let's chat about it a bit later perhaps
<dholbach> some do, but due to the amount of time syncs take in our days, some resorted to package and uploading themselves
<dholbach> yeah
<mdz> thanks, dholbach
<mdz> doko?
<JaneW> I don;t think doko is here
<mdz> he was here earlier
<JaneW> I have had no resonse from him...
<mdz> he's still connected
<mdz> please send him a message and see what's happened
<mdz> meanwhile
<mdz> fabbione? 
<fabbione> Since we are approaching Feature Freeze the report is a bit more detailed:
<JaneW> will do
<fabbione> * server-candy: "Ship a Server Test Suite on the CD": no progress other than a couple of mails. "Third party software inclusion": we have a list of apps submitted by community that needs to be reviewed (licence) and in case packaged. "central snakeoil SSL setup": almost completed. Missing one or two packages only (pending on lamont and infinity). "Create an MD5 checker for the Ubuntu Installer rescue mode": Still blocked on admin #723. "
<fabbione> Provide a RCS /etc out of the box" deferred to dapper+1 (too many issues have been raised to be done in a proper way in such short time).
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: Usual round of redhat cluster suite updates, Ben is looking at OCFS2 kernel bug fixes (if any). Gone trough the entire spec with Ivan (neuralis) and made some conclusions for Dapper: SLURM - deferred (licence issues and no time to port it to gnutls), DRBD - deferred (it's basically only x86* and it has a bunch of annoying limitations to be really useful), LVS (ipvsadm and keepalived) - packages cleaned up and approved f
<fabbione> or main (they are in pitti's queue and will be done by tomorrow), ganglia - standby (pkgs are old and missing a lot of love. we might get it in before FF).
<fabbione> * last week: a lot of server-candy and ubuntu-cluster work. Buggered Kamion to install -server kernels from server CD. EVERYBODY HUG COLIN NOW!
<fabbione> * next week: Attempt to cleanup ssl-cert package to be more user friendly (core was done before starting the transition). Start cleaning -server CD. Hopefully start looking into X.
<mdz> fabbione: who is doing the license review?
* ogra hugs Kamion 
<infinity> fabbione: I have some pending ssl-cert changes I need to clean up and commit to SVN.
<fabbione> mdz: me basically...
<Kamion> -server kernels stuff isn't quite done yet, there are some problems
<infinity> fabbione: If it's not blocking you, I intended to do so on the weekend (since I also want to upload to Debian with a mess of bugfixes)
<ogra> Kamion, i just did what i was asked for ;)
<fabbione> mdz: and involing mdy for permissions if required. but that part is the one that scares me the less
<doko> sorry, didn't look at the watch ...
<Kamion> chiefly https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/base-installer/+bug/31474 and seed changes blocked on that
<fabbione> infinity: no it's not blocking me. the transition my side is done
<fabbione> Kamion: we still want to hug you, OK?
<pitti> fabbione: does the switch to the ssl-cert group cause any troubles?
<mdz> ok, thanks fabbione
<fabbione> pitti: not we did think of.
<fabbione> mdz: welcome
<mdz> heno: you are here?
<heno> mdz: yep
<heno> example-content: first package version in universe. Most of the content needs upgrading though and we need a link from Nautilus or a desktop icon ...
<pitti> I have a pending main inclusion report, but that's pretty pathologic, I assume
<mdz> pitti: yes, I imagine it only needs an eyeball
<pitti> yep, will check packaging and such
<mdz> dholbach: is it already seeded?
* mdz misses anastacia
<dholbach> mdz: no.
<Riddell> heno: I'll try and find someone to make a kubuntu-example-content
<ogra> mdz, we all do ...
<mdz> dholbach: please go ahead and seed it, then it can move immediately once the report is complete
<Riddell> that would probably be from the same source
<mdz> s/report/review/
<pitti> Riddell: oh, is the current package ubuntu specific?
<dholbach> mdz: ok
<mdz> Riddell: excellent idea
<heno> Riddell: great ok, we can mention Kubuntu in the main content as well
<mdz> heno: I thought we agreed to use the Places menu?
<Riddell> pitti: most isn't, some parts use ubuntu logo where it would be better to use a kubuntu logo etc
<mdz> that's the most appealing option to me so far
<pitti> I see
<heno> both places menu and Nautilus have been mentioned
<heno> places is probably the easiest
<ogra> heno, is it easy to rebrand that content for edubuntu ? 
<dholbach> mdz: the problem is, that if we patch gtk/whatever, people will not be able to remove that bookmark
<seb128> places menu tends to already be long, you want to put extra stuff here?
<mdz> seb128: it's either that, or a desktop icon...
<mdz> needs to be visible
<seb128> desktop icon is easy to get ride of
<JaneW> I don't think it will be found in places...
<seb128> you have no way to drop a places menu item
<mdz> yes, but ugly on everyone's desktop
<Riddell> why not a link in skel?
<heno> silbs suggested we focus on ubuntu for now but sprinkle in some ku/edubuntu
<ogra> Riddell, eek
<Riddell> so it's in new user's home directory
<ogra> heno, ah, k so i can "just use" it then ? 
<JaneW> is there a constraint to adding it at the bottom of the Applications menu?
<mdz> dholbach: let's have a mailing list discussion about where to put it; no time for it now
<Kamion> /etc/skel links need to be considered very very carefully
<heno> there are already some wallpapers from each of those
<ogra> cool
<dholbach> mdz: ok
<mdz> thanks heno
<mdz> infinity?
<heno> ogra: I think so yes
* sivang hopes he hasn't been pinged and did not respond
<infinity> last week:
<infinity> reducing-duplication: thunderbird and enigmail updates to kick mozilla out of main (yay!)
<infinity> misc: initramfs hacking, digging around in PHP CVS for security fixes (should release tomorrow when I wake up, now that I hear it doesn't require handholding), lots and lots of digging through failed build logs and babysitting the soyuz buildds (bugs filed, celso and kiko responding, work progressing there)
<JaneW> sivang: alphabetical...
<infinity> next week:
<infinity> splash-down: need to look into some usplash/bogl misfeatures blocking changes required to make splash-down work sanely
<sivang> JaneW: ah
<infinity> misc: deal with babysitting buildds more, and catalog anything/everything I want to get in and done before FeatureFreeze.
<mdz> infinity: I'm interested in soyuz progress; if you could mail me a list of bugs to look at, I'd appreciate that
<infinity> mdz: Can I TODO it and get you in the loop in the morning when I have my head on straight? (It's 1:20am here)
<mdz> infinity: of course (and it's 6:20 here ;-) )
<infinity> Lucky you. ;)
<mdz> infinity: so when anastacia is resurrected, mozilla should be able to move to universe now?
<infinity> That's the theory.
<infinity> Hard to tell without anastacia to confirm, but it should be good to go.
<iwj> Yay.
<Kamion> you may be able to tell from germinate output
<mdz> infinity: should be possible to confirm with germinate
<Kamion> snap
<infinity> Point. :)
<mdz> thanks infinity
<mdz> iwj?
<iwj> AutomatedTesting: Not much change since last report.  Had discussion with Kinnison about integration into the build systems; awaiting implementation from me and then work on the build systems.  When do we call the goal `complete' ?
<iwj> AutomatedTesting: No progress on piuparts (etc.) integration and additional per-package tests; not blocked.
<iwj> Firefox: some broken packages last week (sorry).  Fallout from the mozilla/nspr/nss transition seems to be reducing.  Bug situation is dire - I'm drowning in unsearchable unfindable low-quality reports.
<iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Editing work in progress.
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: Have found (I think) where to bypass the `You have chosen to open ...' dialogue.  Turning this off (so that it just takes the default) will make things work better most of the time but will expose broken MIME database entries by making working around them harder.  I plan to do this this week.
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: .desktop file security issue needs investigating and probably fixing.
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: After these two things I think I will call the goal done (even though there are still many deviations from correct behaviour particularly if the server sends wrong MIME information, which upstream know about).
<iwj> Bugs backlog: awful.
<iwj> Email backlog: none.
<mdz> iwj: thanks for the automated-testing transcript
<iwj> NP
<Kamion> germinate output still suggests mozilla-browser's needed for some things, but I'm not sure that's real; would need investigation
<mdz> iwj: from here it will need a higher-level interface than what I saw there; we want to be able to have it act on a .deb or set of .debs
<iwj> I was wondering if I might patch dbuild or something to run it.
<mdz> your demo showed the package installation being handled separately, e.g.
<iwj> Yes.
<mdz> we want to be able to say "test this .deb" and have it do its thing
<pitti> Kamion: mozilla-psm maybe? that's the only rdep I can think of
<Kamion> pitti: no, enigmail apparently
<iwj> This is something that it has to do for the build-time testing.
<Kamion> pitti: -> #ubuntu-devel
<mdz> yes
<iwj> So yes, it's next on the list.
<mdz> I have no particularly strong feeling on whether it's responsible for the chroot, or relies on the user creating that ahead of time
<mdz> iwj: we can call it complete when it's running automatically and periodically over main
<iwj> There's at the moment about two use cases: the LP build systems, and individual maintainers.
<mdz> and failures are reported somehow
<iwj> The current plan is to make it run as part of every build.
<sivang> mdz: wouldn't we need to have all main packages "enabled" with it before?
<mdz> iwj: running as part of the build is nice, but not a complete solution
<mdz> we'd like for it to detect indirect failures caused by changes in other packages as well
<iwj> That's true.
<iwj> I didn't discuss that with Kinnison.  I'll do so.
<Kinnison> iwj: tonight?
<iwj> kinnison: Sure.  Shouldn't take too long.
<mdz> iwj: regarding bug backlog, dholbach is looking for lists of bugs to feed bug day volunteers
<Kinnison> iwj: cool
<mdz> they can assist in trying to reproduce bugs, looking for upstream bugs, etc.
<iwj> mdz: Excellent.  Although the ff ones are a bit dispiriting for me.  Maybe bug volunteers prefer them; there's often not much getting-to-grips-with-code and a lot of asking-for-more-info etc.
<mdz> sounds like a great match then
<dholbach> iwj: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay - asking for more info is fine
<mdz> thanks iwj
<mdz> jbailey?
<jbailey>  * ToolchainRoadmapNg: I've begun basic testing of a glibc-2.4 snapshot on ppc.  Aiming for my test build ~ March 8th.
<jbailey>  * Other: 
<jbailey> 1) Clearing out bugs and getting them assigned away at a decent rate.  Figured out how to unsubscribe myself from packages (done for grub, and evolution-exchange now).  To whom should evolution-exchange bugs go to?  (Adam, Sb, other)?
<jbailey> 2) I am no longer hanging out on #ubuntu-devel to reduce visibility somewhat - if you need me just /msg or phone.
<jbailey> 3) Been moving the timezone code over and relearning how the magic all works to make sure I get it right, sorry for the lag.
<dholbach> jbailey: desktop-bugs is probably the best.
<jbailey> dholbach: Cool, thanks.
<dholbach> (although i don't very much like the idea (no way of testing, etc)) :)
<mdz> jbailey: if needed, #launchpad should be able to arrange mass reassigns
<mdz> (if you have a huge list of bugs to touch)
<mdz> eek, we're running behind
<mvo> jbailey: 3) is not uploaded yet, right?
<mdz> jbailey: thanks
<mdz> Kamion?
<jbailey> mdz: Cool, thanks.  I've been trying to check to make sure things are sane.
<infinity> dholbach: I can provide you with an exchange server to test against, but I haven't ever used evo (and don't intend to start), so I may not be the best person to care about its plugins.
<jbailey> mvo: Correct, not yet uploaded.
<mvo> thanks
<Kamion> ubuntu-express: Finished debconffilter rework, so the UI is reasonably responsive now. More Guadalinex unbranding. Helping Tollef come on-line and trying to keep up with merging all his changes. :-)
<Kamion> ue-gnome-ui: Split out install progress to a separate window per mpt's design. Screenshots removed. Added a link to the desktop (still needs icon love).
<Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Automatic partitioning works now. Much better handling of gparted in manual partitioning mode, although still some bugs. Disk selector hidden for now because it still sucks.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-base-system: Tollef's working on keymap configuration.
<Kamion> misc: base-installer fixes to make it work better when you're installing without restricted (this was a deferred Hoary goal!). Published CD build logs where everyone can read them. Basic support for -server ke
<jbailey> dholbach, infinity: Let's talk about it and get an exchange server setup at the DC - we'll need this for support testing anyway.
<dholbach> infinity: Ok, thanks.
<Kamion> rnels in base-installer, but it's not quite all there yet.
<Kamion> next-week: Flight CD 4 today or tomorrow I hope; starting testing now. Language configuration in Espresso; "ready to install" summary page. Banging on through https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/ToDo as fast as possible.
<Kamion> sorry for line breakage there
<Kamion> also, soyuz ftpmaster training, and filing bugs (most of which have been resolved very quickly, thanks Kinnison/cprov); I can do both NEW and override changes now, and I think removals as well
<mdz> Kamion: where are the CD build logs?  are they linked from DeveloperResources?
<ogra> yup
<Kamion> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/cd-build-logs/, and yes, there's a link there
<mdz> Kamion: the todo list seems to be dominated by UI tasks
<mdz> Kamion: is that an accurate reflection of status?
<Kamion> well, if you count the several missing features at the top as UI tasks, yes
<Kamion> (which they sort of are)
<Kamion> I think the missing features will dominate development for the next week or two, then we can move into polishing
<mdz> Kamion: if we need to recruit a pygtk guru to help blow through some of the UI work, that can be arranged
* Kamion has been teaching himself pygtk at a considerable rate
<Kamion> but yes, in a couple of weeks some attention from a guru might help
<mdz> Kamion: clearly. :-)  but that may not be the fastest way to get it done
<mdz> ok
<ogra> just get lamesh to look at it :)
<mdz> espresso will appear on the desktop for flight 4?
<ogra> *jamesh
<Kamion> assuming my change last night worked
<mdz> cool
<mdz> thanks Kamion
<mdz> Keybuk?
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: experimenting with one, two and three phases of readahead runs to see which gives the best performance. going to liberate an old P200 from backup DNS duty and install dapper on that, should give a great chart in the ogra time ranges.
<Keybuk> network-magic: ifrename bugs all fixed, and it now seems to be working great and better than the breezy version (it reliably swaps network cards).  need to decide what to do about "clashed" interfaces.  getting pitti to do a final check of network-manager for main inclusion, and will recommend it for main next week and either the supported or ship seeds -- I'm not happy enough with it for desktop for dapper, I'm afraid.
<Keybuk> other: scott@canonical/ubuntu.com mail now gets delivered to my gmail account, so that should work.  all paperwork and stuff signed for my new line, just waiting for a final install date
<Keybuk> next week: readahead will be top priority
<JaneW> Keybuk: streamlined-boot is still in briandump... is it going to happen or be deferred?
<mdz> Keybuk: where do bug reports about the ifrename stuff end up?  are you monitoring ubuntu-bugs or otherwise ensuring that you see them?
<Keybuk> JaneW: it's happened I just never wrote it down (bad keybuk)
<Keybuk> you could probably set it at implemented <g>
<JaneW> Keybuk: you going to finish spec or just implement?
<Keybuk> mdz: udev, ifrename, etc.  I'm watching all of them
<JaneW> oh is it already implemented?
<Keybuk> JaneW: I have been meaning to write down everything in the spec, yes
<JaneW> I'll update it then
<mdz> Keybuk: it seems like the sort of thing where the user wouldn't know which package to file under
<Keybuk> and have the spec as a "readme" for future reference
<ogra> Keybuk, note that i have to trade between fast boot and low memory ... readahead might take to much mem
<mdz> s/wouldn't/& necessarily/
<Keybuk> mdz: indeed, ubuntu-bugs has simply too much traffic to grep through the web interface sadly
<Keybuk> and tbh, too much to grep through a mail client now
<Keybuk> ogra: you've had it since hoary, so isn't that bad :)
<mdz> Keybuk: I don't have trouble doing it through mail
<ogra> Keybuk, i'm not sure its used on thin clients currently (as long as it doesnt hide an any other initscript its not used)
<dholbach> Keybuk: no network-manager for dapper desktop?
<Keybuk> I gave up once is was eating more than an hour of my time a day
<mdz> Keybuk: you should be able to search very effectively with your mail routed to gmail now ;-)
<Keybuk> I'd be happy to take any advice
<Keybuk> mdz: only my direct inbox mail is routed there ... no mailing list subscriptions
<Keybuk> dholbach: indeed
<mdz> Keybuk: can you send a mail to -devel and me with a list of issues and concerns?
<Keybuk> mdz: with which?
<mdz> Keybuk: n-m
<Keybuk> sure thing
<mdz> Keybuk: so that we can talk it out, and when we've made a decision, we have someplace to point to explain it
<mdz> great, thanks
<mdz> JaneW: updates from lathiat/krstic?
<Keybuk> basically it's turned out to a huge pile of intertangled deps, and very hard work (much harder than I thought at first glance) to mutate it to our needs
<Keybuk> and I'm simply not happy with it being installed by default
<Keybuk> when it works, it's great
<Keybuk> but when it doesn't work, it requires severely heavy know-how to get your computer back to working again
<Keybuk> (I'll summarise more eloquently on the list)
<JaneW> mdz: no not yet I'll mail lathiat, krstic's goal is deferred
<mdz> right
<mdz> Mithrandir?
<Mithrandir> livecd-performance: no further improvements, I still haven't had the time to test lzma, I don't know what Scott has done wrt readahead
<Mithrandir> simplified-live-cd: implemented; still missing stackable file systems (wanted for espresso)
<Mithrandir> misc: getting up to speed on espresso, has refactored some of the UI.  This has taken a fair bit of effort, so I'm behind on email.  Working on the keyboard selection for espresso.  fixed ddcprobe to work on amd64, so we now have the correct resolution on the live cd
<Mithrandir> blocked on: access to popcon.ubuntu.com, but I have plenty to do, so it's not urgent
<Mithrandir> spec list is getting shorter and shorter, I guess that's a good thing. :-)
<infinity> \o/ to ddcprobe on amd64.
<ogra> yay
* pitti will try after the meeting
<ogra> (even it still helps with my widescreen display)
<Mithrandir> today's live has the new and shiny ddcprobe.
<ogra> s/helps/doesnt help/
<Mithrandir> ogra: fix your video bios. :-P
<mdz> Mithrandir: we still win even if nothing else happens on livecd-performance, so your help is much more valuable on espresso
<ogra> :P
<mdz> Mithrandir: I'm happy to call the dapper portion of livecd-performance implemented whenever you're happy with it
* mvo tried and it works nicely
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes, you asked me to concentrate on espresso last week.
<Mithrandir> mdz: ok, I guess we'll just take the fixes scott brings in for readahead and call -performance done for dapper, then.
<mdz> Mithrandir: right, I'm saying that we can clear that from your list entirely and don't need updates on it
<ogra> liveCd is scary fast :)
<Mithrandir> yup
<mdz> yes, it's looking good
<ogra> already
<mdz> doko: you're back?
<doko> yes
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: I'm basically doing readahead as we've discussed ... so should be a win for livecd just as much as for install
<doko> this week:
<doko> - dapper-toolchain: Updated all packages in main to build with the default g++ to be able demote g++-3.4 from main, gcc-4.0 updates
<doko> - dapper-toolchain+1: updated packages for test rebuild
<doko> - python-roadmap: python2.3 ready to be demoted from main, some python packages rebuilt.
<doko> - openoffice.org: update to 2.0.2rc1, builds now, investigating installation failures
<doko> - openoffice.org-gnome: martink did some testcases for the gnome filepicker, working on fixes, gnome-desktop-integration stuff enabled for the next OOo builds
<doko> - other: syncs, sync requests, package updates
<doko> - java-roadmap: ecj-bootstrap update to 3.1.2, other parts now driven by OOo needs.
<doko> next-week:
<doko> - uploadable openoffice.org packages
<jsgotangco> /j #uia
<jsgotangco> hey mgalvin 
<mdz> administrative note: it's important that you be present for the entire meeting, not only when it's your turn to present.  one of the reasons that we do things this way is to give everyone a chance to see what their peers are doing, and whether they need help
<Keybuk> jsgotangco: bless you
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: where do you have the list of stuff to read ahead?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: let's discuss outside of here after the meeting
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: sure
<mgalvin> g'mornin jsgotangco, all
<infinity> doko: Thanks for all the python2.3 demotion uploads this week, BTW.  I was very happy to see thos. :)
<infinity> s/thos/those/
<pitti> ++
<mdz> doko: what work remains on toolchain-roadmap and python-roadmap?
<doko> toolchain: final updates to 3.4.6 and 4.0.3 when releaed, not much work
<pitti> doko: any rebuilds with the new compiler?
<doko> python: no python-central/python-support in dapper, we're not going to make a version switch for dapper, so not actuall needed.
<mdz> doko: so python-roadmap is essentially complete?
<doko> pitti: AFAIU, we'll do a complete test build of dapper anyway at some point
<infinity> Several.
<infinity> Over and over.
<mdz> yes
<doko> mdz: yes
<mdz> ok, great
<pitti> doko: right, but I mean actually used rebuilt debs (in case they fixed some crashes in compiled code, or so)
<mdz> thanks doko
<dholbach> infinity: great, the MOTUs will be delighted.
<mdz> Kinnison?
<doko> needs debian work only 
<dholbach> infinity: (they asked about it already)
<Kinnison> Firstly, I apologise about this not being in quite the same format as everyone elses. As I get up to speed I'll be better, honest.
<Kinnison> == power-management == * Added support to the acpid package for noticing the gnome and kde policy managers for power management * Got a lot more information on a number of g-p-m bugs * Fixed several of them, including the sabdfl lock-on-lid-close bug
<Kinnison>  * Touched acpi-support to add some tosiba buttons and to add support for the lock key as a KEY_COFFEE event. Filed a bug against the kernel to get thist working * Started dialogue with upstream about the lid-close stuff.
<Kinnison> == general ==
<Kinnison>  * Helped pitti with several security uploads, finally automated my part of it for him.
<Kinnison>  * Lots and lots of bug work with the users.
<Kinnison>  * Started to feel more confident in getting on with things
<Kinnison> == going forward ==
<Kinnison>  * I need to build a more comprehensive test set for soyuz testing.
<Kinnison>  * Built some packages for cprov for testing soyuz
<Kinnison>  * More power-management stuff over the coming week
<Kinnison>  * I imagine I'll start to find more, or people will say "oh you could do 'foo' to help me out" where 'foo' doesn't need too much back-context for me to be useful.
<Kinnison> [end] 
<JaneW> Kinnison: format is perfect for me, thanks
<mdz> Kinnison: a shift during bug day would be welcome
<mdz> and we'll talk in more detail tomorrow or early next week hopefully
<mdz> right now, need to try to stay within our time limit
<mdz> thanks Kinnison
<Kinnison> mdz: I'll do my best
<mdz> mvo?
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - bug hunting in update-notifier, added workaround for the "it eats my cpu problem" - this needs more work
<mvo> - release-upgrades:
<mvo>   * automatic dist-upgrade testing infrastructure ready, waits for a home :)
<mvo>   * bugfixes
<mvo>   * use --force-overwrite per default now (we won't catch overwrite errors from users anymore because dpkg doesn't report them with this setting)
<mvo> - third-party-packages:
<mvo>   * uses gettext for the desktop files
<mvo>   * menu-data updated and split out into own pkg
<mvo>   * "All" category added
<mvo>   * search improvments
<mvo> - added splash for grub
<mvo> - default-apt-sources: 
<mvo>   * worked on the per-queue-failure code, decided to do something simpler
<mvo> - misc: various stuff in language-selector, synaptic, update-manager, gksu, python-xdg, apt, python-apt
<mvo> will do:
<mvo> - take a day off tomorrow to move to a new flat
<mvo> - automatic dist-upgrade testing finish
<mvo> - try to cleanly fix the update-notifier eats my cpu problem
<mvo> - gnome-app-install add the last missing bits
<mvo> - default-apt-sources: turn "can't connect" errors into warnings, look what we can do to reauthenticate the lists on network failures
<JaneW> mvo: you going to progress the default-apt-sources spec?
<doko> mdz: should be more specific about python-roadmap, that we still strive for python-2.4.3 for dapper, when released
<mvo> JaneW: I intend to work on it the next week
<JaneW> mvo: spec is still in braindump, and very RED
<JaneW> mvo: ok thanks
<mdz> JaneW: it's lower priority, but should be a small amount of work and would be very nice to have
<mdz> happy for him to delay it until close to feature freeze if his time can be better spent on the higher-priority items
<mdz> thanks mvo
<mdz> ogra?
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: started work on nbd swap, trying to find a way to do automated swapfile creation on the server
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: initscript handling implemented, spec implemented and done
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: no work done
<ogra> * general:  powerpc support on ltsp included the ppc specific bits in the default dhcpd.conf (upload and merge pending, yaboot handling missing), flight4 preparation, more ltsp merges (specifically one solving a bashism in ltsp_functions), helping Kinnison on the powermanager takeover.
<JaneW> mdz: ok, it was listed as a medium.
<ogra> * next-week: finish nbd handling for ltsp (to set spec to implemented), more flight 4 work (as soon as DSL is back), finish gnome-screensaver-default-image, merge peres xauth handling in ldm cleanly, try to switch ltsp-client to dash if time is left before feature freeze (udev bashism needs a deeper look i havent taken yet and sorting), jumping on the gnome-screensaver bugs, convincing ltsp upstream to do flight4 tests (once its out) to get feedba
<ogra> ck on the implemented specs ... probably looking into ltsp-client-builder for better progressbar handling in the installer if time is left...
<ogra> note: i'm out of DSL since two days, no ETA for fixage yet, ISDN makes it nearly impossible to test edubuntu flight4
<mdz> ogra: I seem to recall that nbd had a mechanism to automatically create the files based on IP or similar
<mdz> can't recall the details though
<mdz> ogra: if you won't be able to test personally, ensure that you find a volunteer to fill in for flight4
<ogra> mdz, yes, i'm looking into jammcqs implementation, i know he has a mechanism...
<mdz> ogra: ok, need to move on, thanks
<mdz> pitti?
<ogra> mdz, jsgotangco is great on the amd64 front 
<jsgotangco> :D
* JaneW cheers for jsgotangco 
<ogra> i'll have to find others though ..
<mdz> JaneW: remind me to reverse the order for the next meeting so that we squeeze a different set of people ;-)
<JaneW> mdz: ok
<dholbach> haha
<jsgotangco> amd64 compiz+xgl working great now too
<pitti> status of unimplemented specs:
<pitti>  * langpacks-desktopfiles: DONE: implemented langpack support for .server files, which completes the code changes of that spec; still TODO/PLAN: fix non-cdbs+gnome.mk packages manually, discuss the stuff with gnome/fd.o upstream
<pitti>  * firewall: DONE: negotiated bounty with carstenh, approved by mdz; target date: May 1st; no blocks any more
<pitti>  * reducing-duplication: DONE: dropped MySQL 4.1; final changes to drop mozilla (thanks infinity!), lots of Python 2.3 cleanup (thans doko!); PLAN: gnutls 11->12 transition next week for all packages but openldap; BLOCK: actual mozilla demotion, need help with openldap, need proper madison and melanie-like tools somewhere
<pitti>  * automated-problem-reports, automatic-printer-conf: no blocks, no time, deferred to dapper+1
<pitti> general stuff done this week:
<pitti>  * lots and lots of security update work, worked with Kinnison to get the process working
<pitti>  * unbroke CD burning
<pitti>  * much bug triage (still scary backlog, though), some bug fixing, main inclusion reviews, CD testing
<ogra> jsgotangco, not intresting for edubuntu :P
<pitti> general stuff planned next week:
<pitti>  * upload postgresql-common ubuntu branch with SSL snakeoil cert support; BLOCK: upload of fixed ssl-cert by fabbione
<pitti>  * coordinate Thunderbird locale unbreaking with asac (Debian maintainer)
<Kamion> pitti: do you have drescher access?
<pitti>  * even more security update backlog
<pitti> Kamion: no, I don't
<pitti> Kamion: I probably will in the future, when we switch security to drescher
<Kamion> pitti: ok, in that case use rookery, copy ~cjwatson/bin/madison-lite and ~cjwatson/.madison-lite/config to your home directory
<pitti> cool, thanks
<mdz> not sure what we have for melanie, apart from germinate-output
<Kamion> pitti: it only updates every six hours but it's a lot better than nothing
<Kamion> we don't yet AFAIK
<pitti> yes, six hours is more than fine
<Kamion> (melanie, that is)
<mdz> pitti: re: bug triage, I strongly suggest getting involved with bug day ;-)
<Riddell> is germinate output in the same place as before?
<Kamion> well, we have a removal tool, but no rdepends checking
<pitti> yes, that's planned
<mdz> Riddell: yes
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<Kamion> Riddell: yes, and I just fixed it so that it no longer looks at http://jackass/ ;-)
<mdz> seb128?
<seb128> GNOME: update to GNOME 2.13.91, lot of bug triage
<seb128> gstreamer0.10: desktop and seeds updated for gst0.10, gst0.8 can be demoted to universe
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: session dialog patch updated to use a fadding effect, started investigating using a GTK theme for the gdm greater, will work on the desktop switcher patch (use tooltip) today
<seb128> tomorrow: bug day
<seb128> .
<seb128> next week: continue bug triage, keep fixing issues with the desktop, update of the panel/session dialog for dapper-desktop-plan according to the mail sent by Mark about that
<mdz> seb128: did you verify gst0.8 via germinate?  we have the capability to demote things, but it's not as easy to see without anastacia when they're ready to be moved
<seb128> I talked briefly with pitti about it, seems to be ok
<Kamion> give germinate a minute or two to update to soyuz here
<seb128> I had a look with grep-dctrl, not germinate
<mdz> seb128: any change on video-playback?  is it basically done, given that gst0.10 seems to work well?
<seb128> yep, I would classify as done
<seb128> having user testing/feedback would still be nice
<mdz> ok, go ahead and update in launchpad
<seb128> will do, thanks
<mdz> a call for testing to -devel-announce would be OK
<mdz> ask users who switched to totem-xine to switch back and try it
<seb128> I'll speak with dholbach about it
<dholbach> seb128: yeah
<mdz> thanks seb128
<mdz> Riddell?
<Riddell> kubuntu-express: fair amount done, too many distractions this week to get it to be ready for others to look at yet
<pitti> seb128: dvd is ported?
<Riddell> kubuntu-system-tools: guidance 0.6 in, still need some fixes to system settings before implemented
<Riddell> kubuntu-package-manager: mornfall released alpha 2, update-notifier working, simplified installer progressing well
<Riddell> kubuntu-dapper-roadmap: gstreamer 0.8 clean, gcc 3.4 clean (pending a few builds)
<Riddell> kubuntu-docs: new snapshot, fixing docbook to work with KDE
<Riddell> blocking: adept simplified installer is waiting on gnome-app-install's data to pass NEW, main inclusion review is moving slowly
<Riddell> next week: kubuntu-express, flight 4
<mdz> Riddell: any screenshots handy of the kubuntu update-notifier?
<JaneW> er sivang is waiting too
<Riddell> mdz: nope, can do one in 60 seconds though
<mdz> Riddell: sure, curious to see what it looks like
<seb128> pitti: not yet, but they are working on it (they argue it's not a top priority because it can't be shipped by default anyway for patents, issue etc)
<mdz> Riddell: I'm sure when sabdfl returns home to his kubuntu desktop he will have feedback ;-)
<Riddell> just a systray icon really
<mdz> Riddell: what's happening upstream with KDE within the dapper timeframe?
<Riddell> mdz: KDE 3.5.2 in March
<Riddell> new k3b out today, very minimal bugfixes, people are testing it
<mdz> Riddell: pre-beta?
<Riddell> no sign of kde 4 being usable except for core hackers yet
<mdz> Riddell: I mean, is 3.5.2 going to arrive before the 6.04 beta/
<mdz> s,/,?/
* mdz notices the sunrise outside
<mdz> sivang: update?
<sivang> DONE: fs info provider class, backup media devices detection, some GUI bits, work on ISOBuilder CDBurner , Backup class. Researched about DrakeBackup, which closely resembles our design, is a perl hack, however, took some pointers from there. Reworked all the worker classes to use generators for effective progress report throughout their operations.
<Riddell> mdz: let me check exact dates
<sivang> TODO: polish/finish ISOBUilder, finish Burner and Bakcup classes. rework the GUI according to community's feedback (split resotre and backup to two different dialogs, then have a top level menu), Connect the bits together. 
<sivang> I expect to be able to make it for dapper, with this feature adjustments:
<sivang> - Backup will have to be done by each user. (current dar limitaion that it can only use one pathspec as source)
<sivang> - Desktop notification support will considered nice to have, but if time does not allow it will be deferred for next version.
<mdz> sivang: is it suitable for user testing yet?
<doko> ogra: what are these ISDN problems?
<sivang> mdz: not yet, I'm afraid. I will announce as soon as it is.
<JaneW> sivang: cool, was hoping we wouldn;t have another deferred goal :)
<mdz> ok
<ogra> doko, no ISDN problems ... i wouldnt be here if i had any ...
<mdz> thanks sivang
<mdz> and we're out of time
<pitti> ogra: well, it's just awfully slow :)
<ogra> doko, apart from being 64k  ... which is crap for iso syncing ;)
<mdz> good meeting, everyone
<Riddell> mdz: 3.5.2 oout ~March 24th, so just missing beta by a week
<JaneW> Riddell: you still have some specs in brain dump, can you make a call on those soon, if you haven't yet?
<mdz> good luck with the rest of your day / sleep / etc.
<JaneW> mdz: you too
<pitti> thanks everyone
<iwj> TTFN all
<ogra> thanks mdz 
<dholbach> thank you mdz
<seb128> thank you mdz
<fabbione> cya tomorrow or later guys
<Riddell> JaneW: I'll try and get those updated for next week
<jsgotangco> sorry for the slight hiccup a few minutes ago! i blame xgl :D
* sivang goes back to his manual test sessions at work :)
<JaneW> Riddell: great, thank-you :)
* Kinnison grabs some lunch and then gets on with things
* mvo gets some lunch as well
<sorush20> I missed the meeting for that thing.. 1400, but I'll be around for the 2000 hur.. 
<raphink> hello
<seth> hiya raphink 
<raphink> hi seth :)
<raphink> KM#1-1m
<jpatrick> hello everyone
<jjesse> hiya jpatrick
<raphink> hi jpatrick, jjesse 
<atie> hi
<raphink> hi atie 
<jpatrick> hello atie, raphink, jjesse, *
<raphink> Riddell said he might be a bit late, right jpatrick ?
<jpatrick> yes
<luka74> hello all
<jjesse> he was doing a quick install
<raphink> hi luka74 
<jpatrick> has to do a quick install
<Riddell> good evening all
<atie> raphink, jpatrick , hi
<raphink> jjesse: ok
<raphink> hi Riddell 
<jjesse> ooo 3 inches of ice on the ground, its going to be fun going home from work today
<Riddell> install still going on so I'm stuck in my cupboard with the other computer
<raphink> Tonio can't come to the meeting unfortunately... thanks to the French Telecom Company, that seems to have disconnected his line today 
<Riddell> so, Kubuntu Meeting..
<jjesse> can't connect to cdimage is there a different place to download a kubuntu flight 3 cd?
<Riddell> agenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> and I saved a copy to http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/KubuntuMeetings.html since wiki seems not to be online
<Riddell> jjesse: flight 3 is old new, flight 4 is in testing now
<Riddell> s/new/news/
<raphink> good idea Riddell 
<Hobbsee> morning everyone!
* jpatrick has a cached copy
<jjesse> so where can i get flight4 seeing i can't connect to cdimage :(
<raphink> re Hobbsee 
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> jjesse: you can't :(
<raphink> anyone volunteering to write the minutes?
<jpatrick> me
<Riddell> thanks jpatrick 
<Riddell> names?
<jjesse> bummer need to redownload everything as laptop had a hardware failure :(
<raphink> thanks jpatrick 
* Riddell is Jonathan Riddell
<jmont> (sorry to ask, but the fridge.ubuntu seems to be down) today is kubuntu meeting?
* raphink is Raphal Pinson
* seth is Seth Kinast
<jjesse> jjesse -- Jonathan Jesse
<jpatrick> If I'm around for the meeting
* apokryphos is Francis Giannaros
<raphink> jmont: yes, right now
* apachelogger is Harald Sitter
<Riddell> jmont: yes
* Hobbsee is Sarah Hobbs
* jpatrick is Jonathan Patrick Davies
* Snake__ is Ken Minardo
* allee is Achim Bohnet
* jmont is Jlio Santos Monteiro
* toma is Tom Albers
<sorush20> hi
<Riddell> wow, what a turn out :)
* robotgeek is VenkatRaghavan
<raphink> so as I said, Tonio couldn't do it tonight, but he had a lot to report and to ask at this meeting, so he asked me to do it for him
<sorush20> tell me about it.. 
<Riddell> it was raphink who suggested we have a meeting and I guess one of the outcomes of it should be whether meetings are useful and if we should have more in the future
<raphink> so I'll be doing my best to represent him ;)
* incinerator is C. Dominik Bodi (just lurking)
<jjesse> personal thought was about time
<seth> jjesse +1
<sorush20> Riddell: if you want a better turnout we shoudl advertise this channel on the #ubuntu channel topic.. 
<raphink> we have a lot of things on the agenda, so I suggest we begin now
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 17 Feb 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 22 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<raphink> first point is TOnio's
<raphink> but I'll begin with some news for the ones who are not up-to-date with kubuntu-devel news :)
<jjesse> ooo bring me up to date :)
<raphink> as late news, we are happy to have two new KDE MOTUs in our midst :)
<raphink> jpatrick and Tonio got accepted as MOTUs last tuesday
<raphink> :)
<Snake__> Congrads guys
* apachelogger applauds
<raphink> having more MOTUs focused on KDE is something we really needed, so we're happy to have them :)
<Psi-Jack> Did I miss anything? :)
<jpatrick> \o/
<Riddell> is there anyone else we should get membership/MOTU for?
<raphink> Psi-Jack: we just began
<luka74> #testlr
<seth> Riddell, I'll be getting around to MOTU soon enough :/
<Psi-Jack> Great. I'll be quiet and listen for now, then. ;)
<raphink> seth: good :) I'm looking forward to it
<Riddell> seth: great
<seth> Riddell, too many things on my plate right now though, and I don't know if I've contributed sufficiently at this point
<raphink> ok :)
<Riddell> I wonder if Hobbsee would get past the membership dudes yet
<jpatrick> that TechBoard stuff is long..........
* Snake__ votes in Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i have no idea
<Snake__> :)
<raphink> jpatrick: hehe
<raphink> :)
<allee> Riddell: I assume I can dare to apply for membership
<seth> Riddell, opinion on what more I should get done before running the TB gauntlet?
<sorush20> is it just me or does the http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/2006/02/16/month/event site keep crashing I can't see the adgenda help 
<Riddell> allee: yes, please do
<Riddell> sorush20: yes, data centre is half out
<jpatrick> seth: lots of supporters
* allee adds to TODO
<seth> (I'm now maintaining 6 packages in Kubuntu and have about 2 1/2 dozen uploads)
<Psi-Jack> kubuntu.org is /still/ down? :/
<raphink> Riddell: can you put the url of the agenda in the /topic for the duration of the meeting please?
<Riddell> people going for membership/maintainership please keep your wiki pages up to date
<Riddell> and show them to me before the techboard/community board meeting
<sorush20> Riddell: well that is not very good at all , did you guys want me to host for you for a few hours? 
<sorush20> lol
<Riddell> keep a list of packages you've contributed to, Tonio's page is excellent
<raphink> sorush20: hehe
<raphink> ok
<raphink> :)
* Hobbsee will check out tonio's page for some inspiration when she's more awake
<sorush20> so with out an adgenda there really is nothing to talk about.. 
<Riddell> ** Agenda at http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/KubuntuMeetings.html
<raphink> we have a full agenda sorush20 
<Snake__> Sure there is, just call up what we can remeber
<jpatrick> well it's not long before FeatureFreeze....
<raphink> let's follow up with Tonio's Kubuntu default settings, shall we?
<Snake__> Ahh Riddell 's on it :)
<raphink> we have lots of things to discuss tonight
<Riddell> raphink: go ahead
<sorush20> is there anyway that ubuntu users can pay for the proprietory software though ubuntu canonical ? 
<sorush20> (18:51:42) ompaul: sorush20, no, but it is an interesting idea
<sorush20> (18:51:53) ompaul: what do you think it would cost 
<sorush20> (18:52:24) ompaul: mp3 is owned by a consortia of *nice people*
<sorush20> (18:52:34) ompaul: that is only one of the codecs
<sorush20> (18:52:37) Ivaldi left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
<raphink> ok
<sorush20> (18:52:50) ompaul: wmv - licence that from the doze people --- hmmm
<sorush20> (18:52:56) ompaul: and so on
<raphink> sorush20: please don't do that
<seth> zoy
<jpatrick> sorush20: ok, please don't do that
<raphink> sorush20: we've got an agenda, please add your points after we've gone through it
<raphink> now
<raphink> Tonio has been working quite hard on Kubuntu default settings lately
<raphink> trying to work on every detail to make it usable out-of-the-box very easily
<raphink> he's given me a list of proposals and questions to ask tonight
<raphink> since he can't make it for technical reasons
<raphink> the first point is about double-click
<raphink> all recent operating systems use double-click to open files and folders
<apachelogger> KDE doesn't
<raphink> this can be set in KDE very easily but default is still simple one
<Snake__> Oh man...keep the single click
<apachelogger> yeah
<Riddell> too big a change from KDE defaults
<raphink> how many of you use simple click?
<Riddell> we'd have the whole of KDE after us if we changed that
<apachelogger> I do
<Psi-Jack> I use double-click myself.
* Hobbsee uses double click
<seth> <-- double
<Snake__> I use single click.
<incinerator> keep the single klick or use a setup wizard to ask the user upon first startup....
<Snake__> incinerator: Thats a idea.
<jjesse> can't we ask the user
<Riddell> no startup wizards!
* Hobbsee thinks it would be worhtwhile to actually run the setup wizard by default on first boot
<incinerator> quite annoying krusader using double click and everything else single click
<Hobbsee> with a skip button!
<sorush20> I think we have to make the user aware of the situation the first time he or she logs into kubuntu, how about with an  animations.. ? 
<Psi-Jack> KDE itself, already has a Startup wizard.
<incinerator> kde comes with a startup wizard....
<raphink> incinerator: there is a setup wizzard existing, but it's quite hard to tune in such a short time.
<incinerator> i know
<seth> if you guys haven't noticed, we patch *out* all startup wizards
<seth> we don't want to ADD startup wizards
<seth> :P
<incinerator> then please keep the single click
<jpatrick> SimplifyKDE kills the wizards and KTip things
<Psi-Jack> seth: Yes. I know. Quite annoying if I say so myself.
<Snake__> seth: start-up wizards are never that bad, when you can skip them.
<Riddell> startup wizards (and tip of the day etc) go against simplicity
<incinerator> it's easy to notice the changed behaviour....
<seth> I would argue that good defaults >>> startup wizard
<incinerator> Riddell: fair enough, I agree to that
<Riddell> the whole point of kubuntu-default-dsettings is we pick decent settings and go with them
<raphink> yes
<raphink> I agree with you Riddell 
<raphink> I don't want a wizard either
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: THAT I can agree with too, however.
<sorush20> how about having a button on konqueror or desktop toolbar to change from single click to double and back/??
<jpatrick> something sane
<Riddell> the kde first run wizard has been removed upstream anyway, mostly based on kubuntu as justification
<incinerator> keep the single click then, it's not that the user won't notice anyways....
<raphink> the point though is that (K)Ubuntu is a distribution aimed to users coming mostly from mac/windows
<wincide> hi all
<Snake__> Why go to double click though? Just out of curiosity?
<raphink> and used to double click by default
<incinerator> mac does use double click?
<incinerator> bah
<jpatrick> Snake__: takes twice as long
<raphink> yes
<incinerator> raphink: doesn't make it the right thing to do
<apachelogger> raphink: so loose a main thing of KDE identity for that?
<raphink> all modern interfaces use double click by default except kde
<incinerator> single click is way more intuitive and less a hassle for disabled people....
<Riddell> double click is confusing to people new to computers, I've seen that lots
<Psi-Jack> Snake__: So you don't have to hold CTRL single-click to highlight a file.
<apokryphos> single-click is the way to go I think -- most usability arguments tend to side on that way
<Riddell> (it also makes selection a lot harder of course)
<sorush20> lets say you want to be able to find out the properties of a file when you single click on it it opens it rather than just highlight it.. 
<Hobbsee> it doesnt seem like we get *that* many questions in #kubuntu on how to change it - so people are finding that they can either live with it, or figure out how to change it themselves.
<jpatrick> yes
<seth> Hobbsee +1, I think it's really a moot point
<Snake__> I've been around #kubuntu a while, and I havn't seen to much complaining either
<wincide> greetings for the plasma kicker.. it's very nice , i've installed that with baghira :D
<raphink> good point Hobbsee 
<Riddell> yep
<Hobbsee> :D yay!
<raphink> ok
<raphink> shall we make a quick vote?
<Psi-Jack> Sure. :)\
<sorush20> raphink: yes how you going to make that/ 
<Snake__> +1 to Single Click
<raphink> I'm hearing points of view from different sides so just to be sure I'm hearing more simple-click ones
<jpatrick> I think it's settled
<apachelogger> yo
<jjesse> +1 single click
<Hobbsee> +1 single click
<Riddell> no votes, but we can take a poll
<apachelogger> +1 single click
<robotgeek> +1 single click
<raphink> +1 double click
<incinerator> +1 single click
* allee single ++
<jpatrick> Riddell: where?
* apokryphos chuckles
<Riddell> +1 single click
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> jpatrick: here :)
<jpatrick> +1 single click
<seth> +1 single click (just because it's the default, no rocking the boat)
<wincide> double click ++ 
<Snake__> Seems single click wins :)
<Psi-Jack> I think it's unanymous.
<raphink> there that's clear enough :)
<Psi-Jack> sp?
<jpatrick> single wins!
<incinerator> 2 nay, rest ayes
<Hobbsee> good, next point
<raphink> let's move to next point then
<raphink> which is the fonts
<sorush20> Psi-Jack: is there anyother way we could vote on a a website? 
<raphink> many people complain the default fonts are too big
<incinerator> voting by irc bot?
<jpatrick> ...or too small
<Riddell> people also complain they are too small :)
<sorush20> also shouldn't the vote be put though to all the kubuntu users? 
<raphink> jpatrick: 
<seth> that's one of the first things I change when I get a fresh Kubuntu
<raphink> jpatrick: yes
<Psi-Jack> sorush20: Heh, sure. If you got a site or something with even a sinple voting boot. :p
<Snake__> You can't blame that though, wouldn't that be their resolutions fault?
<wincide> i have a laptop with 1280x800 and i've set the fons to 10
<Riddell> the minimum font size in konqueror definatly needs changed from current dapper (7)
<raphink> tonio proposes to set the dpi to 100 and use either 8 or 9 
<robotgeek> is there any way to detect screen size, it's too big on my 12 inch ibook, perfect on monitor
<seth> I'm on 1680 x 1050, 100dpi and I use 8pt (10pt for window titles)
<Psi-Jack> A font size of 12 is definately gargantuant.
<raphink> are there people using 100 dpi and what do you think of such a size ?
<Hobbsee> i was using 9 with 100 dpi and that worked preety well - 1024x768
<jpatrick> I like mine at 9
<Snake__> robotgeek: agreed....its to big on 800x600, but to small on higher ones
<incinerator> screen size detection can be tricky, and preferences differ
<Riddell> we will never get font sizer exactly correct since it depends on people's eyesight
<incinerator> i'd second making the fonts a wee bit bigger, particularly on laptops
<Snake__> Riddell: and their resolution...
<luka74> my autodetected DPI is 145 - and fonts are HUGE
<Psi-Jack> At 1280x1024, I use a font size of 8, average. 7 for things like the taskbar.
<Riddell> Snake__: exactly
<sealne> and how far away they like their monitors
<incinerator> if it's to big, you'll make it smaller, if it's to small you can't read a thing, again, disabled....
<luka74> I manually set DPI to 120 (or 100) to make it look nice
<incinerator> ^vision impaired people
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> gnome sets the Xft font size to 96
<sorush20> I think the font size is good enough really its easy enought to change
<raphink> tonio proposes to set the dpi forced to 100  in kdmrc
<Riddell> if we can find a way to do the same we could try that out
<raphink> and set the fonts to 8 or 9
* Hobbsee thinks that this again, like the single/double click, can be easily changed in system settings to get it exactly right, and there are hardly any questions in #kubuntu over it - but it would be nice to get it vaguely right for the first boot
<Riddell> dpi rather, not font size
<seth> Hobbsee, I've seen a lot more complaints about fonts than about clicking
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I mostly get complains about KDE and gnome being different (even if you set the point sizes the same)
<Hobbsee> seth: ah, they must not be while i'm on then
<raphink> seth: indeed, people complain a lot about fonts
<raphink> and it seems the only good option is to force dpi=100
<jpatrick> welcome amu 
<amu> moin
<allee> DPI are a well defined.  We should get it right and let people use kcontrol center to change it
<Hobbsee> very true - same with xfce
<luka74> Hobbsee: system settings is not good enough - as many aps have own font setting
<allee> it is pt size of fonts not dpi  ;)
<Psi-Jack> Hmmm.
<sorush20> are you guys voting? 
<sorush20> +1 keep the font size 
<seth> raphink, dpi right now is very hard to change (have to edit kdmrc with an arcane option), so I am in favor of bumping to 100 dpi by default, and then letting font sizes do the rest
<Riddell> I don't want the X server DPI set, that's messing with too much stuff, we should try setting the Xft DPI so we match gnome
<luka74> lots of manual config is required and not "it-looks-good-by-default" (tm) Kubuntu
<incinerator> Riddell +1
<raphink> ok
<raphink> let's vote
<raphink> who is for changing the dpi to 100 by default in kdmrc ?
<seth> hang on
<Riddell> raphink: wait
<allee> seth: don't touch kdmrc use kontrolcenter
<raphink> Riddell: ok
<Riddell> firstly, it's 96 not 100 that gnome uses
<seth> what is the difference between setting the Xft DPI and the X server DPI
<Riddell> so we should stick to that
<atie> please don't forget gnome uses 96dpi, many people want to match size between kde and gnome.
<allee> -dpi --
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: Why stick to that?
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: because part of the problem is that gnome and kde font sizes are different
<Riddell> including firefox
<Psi-Jack> Hmmm.
<Psi-Jack> That actually is a very good point. VERY good.
<Hobbsee> if we could get them to be the same, that's probably worth doing
<Riddell> so people set the point sizes the same but they end up with different fonts
<Snake__> Why are we matching ourselves to gnome? Let's lead, not follow....find what looks good and use it.
<allee> atie: that KDE gets it right compared to windows and gnome is a big plus for KDE
<raphink> most people don't want to consider that they have some apps from the gnome world and some from the kde one
* allee nods to Snake__ 
<Snake__> I havn't used gnome, so I dont know how the fonts look, but if they look right, then use it.
<Riddell> and when they log into the other desktop environment the sizes are wrong again
<allee> raphink: then set gnome dpi to the right value when in a KDE session
<Riddell> allee: KDE may get it right but the monitors may not :)
<raphink> I'm in favor of following what GNOME has
<atie> allee, kde is in advance to follow X setting, but in case need to match with gnome
<Riddell> so we need to find out how to set hte Xft DPI size and try that
<Riddell> which is following what gnome has
* robotgeek thinks wrong font sizes in Gnome is not kubuntu's problem?
<allee> Riddell: xorg driver fault. 
<Psi-Jack> Yep. Even Firefox offers 72dpi and 92dpi
<wincide> i have to leave
<Psi-Jack> 96 even
<wincide> see you :D
<raphink> bye wincide 
<raphink> ok
<raphink> let's try to see what options we have
<allee> Riddell: DisplaySize x-in-mm y-in-mm  in Monitor section # if autodetection of driver fails
<Riddell> robotgeek: everyone gets it wrong, it's a case of getting it consistent so once it's set it works everywhere
<raphink> a) keep it as it is
<Tm_T> sorry I'm late (prolly doesn't matter much)
<raphink> b) set the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
<sorush20> I think font size isn't very important 
<Psi-Jack> Shoot, X standards, used 72dpi and 100dpi, but 100dpi is actually non-standard /everywhere/ else.
<Snake__> Riddell: +1
<raphink> c) set our own dpi and fonts
<robotgeek> Riddell: okay
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: interesting
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: Yes. exactly. ;)
<allee> Psi-Jack: that are bitmap fonts relicts
<sorush20> howabout making  an iRC client that allows fast voting system ? 
<Snake__> sorush20: .....
<Riddell> any volunteers for investigating how to change the xft DPI?
<seth> sorush20, please *stop*
<raphink> sorush20: yeah, do that for next meeting
<Riddell> I volunteer tonio to do it :)
<apachelogger> hehe
<atie> Psi-Jack, 75 dpi and 100 dpi
<Snake__> Heh
<Hobbsee> hehe
<raphink> Tonio is already volunteer for it
<sorush20> I don't know any programing but will learn before I idie..  
<Riddell> raphink: yeah, but this goes beyond setting stuff and involves working out how to talk to xft
<Riddell> which may be trivial, or may not, I've no idea
<incinerator> wiki's up again byraway
<raphink> yes Riddell 
<robotgeek> i have done something similiar before, so i'm game
<Snake__> So shall we vote?
<atie> Riddell, that's in .Xdefaults
<Riddell> robotgeek: great :)  it means looking through gnome-settings-daemon to see how it does it
<Snake__> Or did we and I missed it? :)
<sorush20> Snake__: yes
<raphink> Snake__: yes let's vote
<raphink> so here are the choices I see
<incinerator> +1 Ridell's xft
<raphink> a) keep the current settings
<Snake__> B I guess.
<Psi-Jack> What are the deciding factors?
<allee> I'll offer to write a Wiki about dpi and fonts size.
<Riddell> +1 b) where b means working out how to set xft's DPI
<raphink> b) modify the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
<raphink> c) setting our own dpi
<Snake__> +1 b) modify the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
<raphink> any other option ?
<seth> +1 xft, sounds the most reasonable
<incinerator> +1 b)
<sorush20> I think its trivial 
<apachelogger> +1 b)
<Psi-Jack> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/KubuntuMeetings.html
<raphink> +1 b too
<Psi-Jack> Ack.
<Tm_T> +1 b
<Psi-Jack> +1 b  here. Because KDE uses fontconfig explicitely. 
<amu> c. ...  who cares about others env :)  
<Psi-Jack> It's only natural to use fontconfig FULLY.
<Hobbsee> +1 b
<raphink> ok
<luka74> +1 b
<allee> I'm confused:  2 b)
<jpatrick> +1 c
<allee> [21:28]  <Riddell> +1 b) where b means working out how to set xft's DPI
<Snake__> amu: Thats what I said, but there is a good point when they say going from Gnome to KDE and back
<Riddell> sorush20 and robotgeek talk to tonio about getting that done
<raphink> so the majority is b = using GNOME's default = 96dpi, using xft
<allee> 21:28]  <Snake__> +1 b) modify the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
<incinerator> ack
<raphink> all right
<raphink> I'm sorry I have so many of Tonio's points to bring here
<raphink> and we still have a lot to go on the agenda
<amu> Snake__: doesnt matter, we are an kubuntu desktop, eveyone should use KDE allps 
<incinerator> go ahead then
<amu> allps/apps
<incinerator> amu: bah
<raphink> but this is a work that has to be done before the 23rd
<raphink> next point is with tabs
<Snake__> amu: thats limiting ourselves. Thats not something I feel like doing
<incinerator> if you do a qt version of firefox, ok
<raphink> tabs in konversation first, that are in the bottom by default
<raphink> although in all other apps, they are on the top
<incinerator> as in ksirc
<Snake__> raphink: is this really a problem?
<Snake__> .....
<amu> Snake__: is there something what kde not have, gnome have? 
<incinerator> ksirc has them on the bottom
<incinerator> no
<Psi-Jack> Tabs?
<raphink> Snake__: I don't think so, but Tonio does
* Snake__ sighs
<raphink> so to make it quick
<Tm_T> I like to have tabs in bottom when imputline is on the bottom too
<Riddell> kubuntu-default-settings changes the konsole default from bottom to top (to match konqueror)
<raphink> a) keep it to the bottom
<seth> Tm_T ++++++
<raphink> b) change it to the top
<Hobbsee> i agree with Tm_T 
<apachelogger> +1 a)
<Snake__> +1 A
<jpatrick> +1 a
<seth> input box + tabs = nice easy area to do all the work in
<Hobbsee> +25 A!
<incinerator> unified key shortcuts to navigate the tabes would be much more important....
<Tm_T> +1 a
<seth> +1 a
<Riddell> rationale for bottom is as Tm_T says
<robotgeek> +1 a
<raphink> a
<incinerator> c) unchanged
<amu> b
<raphink> ok
<Psi-Jack> +1 a definately. 
<allee> + b keep at top
<raphink> a in majority :)
<seth> while we're on tabs
<raphink> without a doubt
<Psi-Jack> I move Konsole's tab to the bottom everytime, myself. :)
<Tm_T> Hobbsee: you cheater
<seth> let's talk about Kopete's tabs real fast
<Hobbsee> hehe
<seth> Kopete should mimic Konversation's tab shortcuts
<raphink> yes seth that was my next point
<seth> we need sane defaults for those
<seth> ah, okay :)
<Riddell> kopete has tabs?
<Snake__> Ahh yes
* seth defers to you
<raphink> kopete should have tabs by default
<Tm_T> Riddell: yes!
<Psi-Jack> Browser tabs, and application tabs I consider two different things.
<jpatrick> Riddell: yes
<robotgeek> raphink: +1
<Hobbsee> +1 Riddell 
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: yes. :)
<jpatrick> multiple chats
<raphink> this is necessary
<raphink> we need that
<robotgeek> it's a big pain
<Tm_T> +1 tabs
<raphink> people begin to use gaim to get tabs
<raphink> because they don't know they get tabs in kopete
<raphink> tonio wants to put tabs by default in kopete
<Snake__> I use my tabs, its should be default
<seth> ALT + {Left, Right} should be used to switch b/t tabs in Kopete, just like Konversation
<raphink> putting the "all conversations in one window" option on by default
<jpatrick> read the handbook!
<robotgeek> it's 3 mouslicks away, and i did not find anything to set tabs on (rightaway)
<raphink> a) keep it in different windows
<seth> I actually have a bug open for this on bugs.kde.org
<atie> Xft.dpi:96 is answer.
<raphink> b) use tabs by default in kopete
<atie> I'd like to add one more point font size for user and root shoud be same.
<Snake__> raphink: I would put the "All Conversations from same account" as default
<raphink> :)
<atie> s/shoud/should
<raphink> ok then
<raphink> here are the choices
<Riddell> atie: they are by default
<Tm_T> Snake__: yes, that's best
<robotgeek> +1 b, please
<raphink> a) keep conversations in different windows
<raphink> b) gather all the conversations in one window with tabs
<raphink> c) gather all conversatiosn from one account in one window with tabs
<sorush20> yes tabs by default is a good idea 
<raphink> let's vote
<jpatrick> +1 b
<Snake__> +1 C
<seth> +1 B
<atie> Riddell, I am sorry, I'm watching wiki
<Tm_T> +1 c
<seth> C is confusing for new users
<Hobbsee> +1 b
<luka74> +1 b
<robotgeek> +1 b
<raphink> +b
<incinerator> +1 b
<Tm_T> (to keep irc separate)
<seth> they don't want to know about their different "accounts"
<Riddell> +1 b (although I haven't tried it so may change my mind)
<Psi-Jack> +1 b
<Hobbsee> cant see why you'd bother with c - all or nothing - that's why they dont have a separate client for each service
<allee> b) ++
<sorush20> +1 b
<raphink> any more votes?
<sorush20> does my vote count? 
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> sorush20: sure
<raphink> b in majority :)
<Riddell> but it's not a vote, just a poll
<raphink> that's a great enhancement imo :)
<Tm_T> b is fine
<raphink> sure sorush20 
<Riddell> no binding decisions are made
<raphink> let's move on again
<Riddell> (I like to be able to back out :)
<Psi-Jack> I say B, because, people are looking for tabbed IM, already. It's good to show them Kopete has it. :)
<raphink> let's move on to .... moodin!
<jpatrick> like tab browsering
<Snake__> Moodin?
<raphink> tonio proposes to get moodin in main 
<jpatrick> my package!!
<Hobbsee> what's moodlin?
<Riddell> poke pitti!
<Psi-Jack> moodin? 
<robotgeek> moodin is great!
<Snake__> Someone update me on moodin?
<Snake__> lol
<raphink> and get the nice kubuntu splash by default
<jpatrick> ksplash-engine-moodin
<raphink> moodin is a ksplash engine
<jpatrick> and I find a nice theme for it
<Riddell> it's been in main inclusion review for over a month
<Psi-Jack> Yes. I'm using moodin for splash, with the hand-print. :)
<Psi-Jack> It's pretty spiffy.
<raphink> that allows to have very nice smooth ksplash 
<Snake__> Hmm
<raphink> Riddell: ok
<Snake__> Why not add it?
<Tm_T> ok
<Hobbsee> any prettier ksplash than the one we has sounds good!
<Hobbsee> *has/have
<raphink> Riddell: does it have a chance to be in in a week?
<robotgeek> Hobbsee: a lot prettier
<Riddell> raphink: damn well better be
<raphink> so I guess this is unanimity for moodin
<raphink> Riddell: ok :)
<incinerator> i'd just wish i could turn off kde splash completetly
<Psi-Jack> Moodin is good, and all. HOWEVER:
<raphink> do you all know what the kubuntu moodin theme is ?
* raphink goes to get a screenshot of it
* robotgeek is using it
* Tm_T loves screenshots
<Psi-Jack> If kubuntu is going to use moodin by default for splash, it should be made to look good, and professional in quality, IMHO>
<pitti> hi
<jpatrick> I'm already at kde-look
<Tm_T> pitti: true
<Riddell> ooh pitti, we were just talking about you :)
<jpatrick> hello pitti just the man we want
<Tm_T> Psi-Jack: true
<robotgeek> Psi-Jack: yes, there are great themes for it
<Psi-Jack> robotgeek: I mean Kubuntu-specific. :)
<pitti> what's up?
<raphink> jpatrick: can you get it please?
<Psi-Jack> Something that shows Kubuntu off.
<raphink> oh I got it
<jpatrick> raphink: IU am
<Snake__> Well why not add it. Throw it in, it won't hurt :)
<raphink> ok
<incinerator> link pls
<Riddell> pitti: people are getting frustrated at ksplash-moodin not being in main yet is all
<raphink> this is the theme we want : http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=29426
<sorush20> yes moodin is infomative and personal cause it sys your user name.. 
<raphink> it used to have a bad license, now it's under GPL
<jjesse> sorry i had to leave
<incinerator> look nice
<incinerator> ^looks nice
<Riddell> pitti: and it could do with being done soon so we can get our artwork sorted out
<raphink> please have a look at the link
<jpatrick> thanks to me
<Hobbsee> loading...loading...
<raphink> jpatrick: yep :)
* jpatrick got author to change
<Snake__> Looks good to me
<Tm_T> raphink: oh, lot better than breezy splash!
<Snake__> Thats pretty
<robotgeek> raphink: yep, that;s the one i am using
<Psi-Jack> BRB. Need to blend me a Frappuccino real quick. 
<Hobbsee> looks nice :)
<Snake__> Ill vote that in
<sorush20> how about adding 3d effect to moodi? would be very cool 
<raphink> everyone agree on trying to get this used by default?
<pitti> Riddell: oh, I wasn't awaere that you need it, let alone that it's urgent
<Tm_T> apacheLAGger: snowy, son?
<Snake__> raphink: I do
<Riddell> raphink: that theme is great but canonical are getting some professional artwork done so we may have to combine the two
<raphink> sorush20: let's wait for dapper+1 for Xgl by default ;)
<jpatrick> matching KDM!! http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=29331
<pitti> Riddell: I planned a couple of main inclusion reports tomorrow morning anyway
<Psi-Jack> D'oh! I forgot to turn the coffee maker on. :/
<Tm_T> raphink: +999 to it =)
<raphink> Riddell: ok
<Tm_T> jpatrick: that in too!
<raphink> great :)
<Psi-Jack> raphink: I think it should be made available default, ONLY IF, Kubuntu has a customized theme for it.
<raphink> let's move on again to an app that I think is not so famous yet ... knemo
<sorush20> raphink: have you voted yet .. I vote for it to be default .. 
<apacheLAGger> Tm_T: always
<Riddell> pitti: it's not super urgent, but it does need to be done before artwork freeze
<Snake__> Knemo??
<jpatrick> pitti: report :: http://wiki.kubuntu.org/MainInclusionReportKSplashMoodin
<Tm_T> jpatrick: uses old/new kubuntu logo?
<raphink> yep
<ogra> Riddell, which is still far out 
<Riddell> ogra: yep
<raphink> sorry got too fast
<raphink> hehe
<pitti> Riddell, jpatrick: alright, will do tomorrow morning
<Riddell> excellent :)
<jpatrick> great :)
<raphink> sorush20: I've considered this was a global acceptation without anyone complaining, no need for a poll
<raphink> ok
<raphink> let's move
<raphink> to knemo
<Snake__> raphink: Perhaps look into that KDM as well
<jpatrick> those themes are professional
<Riddell> pitti: Keep is the other package we'd love to have in soonish, but I don't want to take up all your main review time :)
<raphink> for the ones who do not know knemo
<raphink> this is a small applet for kicker
<raphink> that monitors your network interfaces
<Psi-Jack> Heh.. I don't use really ANY kicker applets.
<raphink> you give it the name of the interface, as listed in ifconfig, and it puts a nice small icon in the bar
<raphink> to monitor the traffice, IP, etc.
<Snake__> Arn't there enough karambas for this?
<Tm_T> raphink: aye, I installed it once, had _big_ problems when trying to remove it
<Tm_T> raphink: prolly fixed though =)
<apachelogger> Snake__: quite different
<raphink> knemo looks quite a lot like the network monitory for windows
<Hobbsee> raphink: that'd be cool, and not everyone wants to run karamba
<Snake__> Ohhhh
<Psi-Jack> And as a matter, I would vote to keep kicker applets down to a minimum. We do not want that kicker being overflooded with potentially useless applets.
<raphink> a blinking icon in the taskbar
* robotgeek is still stuck with his wireless up down scripts, might be good for some people
* Hobbsee thinks there's a deficiency in wireless configuration tools that work, as well - this needs fixing
<raphink> Hobbsee: exactly
<luka74> I would not introduce knemo since knetworkmanager will come sooner than later
<incinerator> Hobsee +1
<Riddell> related to this is that network manager won't get into dapper (gnome or KDE)
<Snake__> Hobbsee: +111
<luka74> knemo is just reporting, while knetworkmanager alows some rela actions
<apachelogger> http://rosenberg.homelinux.net/wordpress/wp-content/knemo.png
<Hobbsee> can we get some packages for knetworkmanager please???  *shows puppy dog eyes at Riddell* - just stick them on your server unofficially?
<Riddell> but I expect network manager to be in for dapper + 1
<raphink> luka74: right, so far
<Riddell> Hobbsee: not from me, it needs 3 different things packaged 
<Riddell> problems with knemo are 1) yet another kicker applet
<Riddell> and 1) last time I tried it took a lot of manual setup
<Snake__> Riddell: As far as I can see, you can't have enough of those :)
<Riddell> err, that was 2) :)
<raphink> hehe
<Psi-Jack> What is the poposition for knemo? To include it in kubuntu-desktop to pull it in, or make it applied as a kicker applet default?
<Hobbsee> hehe - Riddell cant count
<Tm_T> Riddell: what's third 1) ?
<Snake__> Psi-Jack: I think to add it
<Riddell> hay, I'm in my cupboard here, don't even have a desk to type on
<raphink> Psi-Jack: Tonio's proposition is to get it in main to include it by default
<luka74> I am using it currently (testing) and I do not see much value (just using some kicker real estate)
<allee> knemo has custom menues, and they can be set by us
<Psi-Jack> Snake__: To which ? There's two things I just said, it could be added to. :p
<raphink> Tonio provided a knemorc file to set it right by default
<Tm_T> Riddell: atleast you do have a cupboard ;)
<raphink> that works
<Snake__> Psi-Jack: Ah hehe, to kubuntu-desktop...I dont want it on my kicker by default
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> raphink: any idea if tonio managed to get it working out the box?
<Psi-Jack> raphink: Include it for kubuntu-desktop? Hmmm.. That /might/ not be so bad. 
<Snake__> I would like to have it ACESSIBLE and INCLUDED but not on kicker by default
<incinerator> i think it has some benefits for new users, particularly diagnosis when net's not working
<Hobbsee> there's already an applet for network settings - rather weird though
<raphink> Riddell: yes he did from what he told me
<Psi-Jack> I'm going to install knemo, right now.
<incinerator> as an intermediate solution until knetworkmanager gets into main, good idea
<raphink> Riddell: and sent you the knemorc
<Tm_T> I'd say no knemo for default
<allee> raphink: sent to kubunt-devel
<Riddell> raphink: he sent me a load of things but then said to wait because he was working on something
<Riddell> if we get it working out the box, we then need a volunteer for the main inclusion report
<Hobbsee> well, can we make knemo easy enough to add, yet not have it there running by default?
<raphink> Riddell: as part of the latest kubuntu-default-settings he sent was the knemorc that works
<jpatrick> Riddell: I have experience in that field
<robotgeek> raphink: it reads from /etc/network/interfaces ?
<raphink> sure Hobbsee taht's an option
<Psi-Jack> knemo is a kicker applet, right?
<Riddell> justification for knemo is that ubuntu gnome does have a similar applet
<Snake__> Hobbsee: If you right click kicker, under add applet, couldn't we just have it inthere?
<raphink> robotgeek: I think it greps ifconfig 
<apachelogger> Psi-Jack: http://rosenberg.homelinux.net/wordpress/wp-content/knemo.png
<Snake__> if people want it
<Tm_T> Hobbsee: +1 for that
<raphink> Psi-Jack: yes
<Psi-Jack> apachelogger: I'm looking at that now, and looking at my applet list, after just installing it.
<raphink> ok
<Snake__> Like the public file server, or quick launch?
<raphink> sooo
<raphink> here is what I propose
<raphink> a) don't do anything with knemo
<raphink> b) set knemo in kubuntu-default-settings nicely and use it by default
<raphink> c) set knemo in kubuntu-default-settings nicely and don't use it by default
<Snake__> +1 C
<incinerator> +1 c
<raphink> poll opened :)
<apachelogger> +1 C
<robotgeek> +1 b
<Hobbsee> +1 c
<Psi-Jack> +1 c
<sealne> +1 c
<jpatrick> +1 c
<Riddell> +1 b I think, may go for C if too many people complain
<raphink> +1 b
<luka74> +1 c
<sorush20> I can't vote since I haven't used and can't comment etc.. 
<raphink> 3 
<allee> +1 for b)  with only one icon as that has default route
<raphink> 2
<raphink> 1
<Tm_T> +1 c
<raphink> poll closed
<sorush20> but if its is the esiest for the new users then 
<raphink> :)
<raphink> ok Tm_T you get it ;)
<amu> b :)
<Tm_T> aye
<raphink> hehe
<robotgeek> buzzer beater
<raphink> I have to count for this one
<raphink> we have a majority of c) set knemo in kubuntu-default-settings nicely and don't use it by default
<raphink> so ok 
<Snake__> Woot
<raphink> b) and c) have the same requirements anyway
<jpatrick> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/MainInclusionReportKNemo
<raphink> which is to get knemo in main + set it in kubuntu-default-settings
<raphink> then the difference is just in a dependency
<Psi-Jack> raphink: BTW, I have some things I don't think are in the agenda, that I'd like to discuss more towards the closing. 
<raphink> thanks jpatrick 
<jpatrick> no problem
<raphink> Psi-Jack: we'll discuss them in the end of the talk ok?
<raphink> the _last_ of TOnio's point
<Psi-Jack> raphink: That's kinda what I wanted. Yes. Thanks. ;)
<raphink> then I'll let someone else talk for a bit
<Riddell> "The program works with no configuration needed" yet to be proven :)
<raphink> the last point is still about the fonts
<raphink> on the desktop
<jpatrick> whoops /me fixes
<raphink> tonio would like to go back to the way fonts where in hoary on the desktop
<raphink> that is : white with black around them
<raphink> as they are now, it's impossible to use bright wallpapers 
<raphink> without setting the fonts
<Tm_T> ok
<Snake__> Ah crap, I have something I would like to bring up, if there is time left, I didn't make it to the agenda either...its nothing big, but if we can fit them in
<raphink> because they're white by default
* Tm_T have only grey text in desktop
* Hobbsee examines her fonts carefully...oh i see
<raphink> it's easy to have they white with a bit of black around them
<Riddell> Snake__: yes, at the end
<Riddell> raphink: that's the kde default I think
<Snake__> raphink: How about like the taskbar, when its set to transparent font?
<raphink> + the fonts get dark when selected, so hard to see on a dark desktop either
<jpatrick> (done)
<raphink> Riddell: yes, and windows and mac os too
* robotgeek notices that he has a problem, +1 raphink 
<Riddell> so lets do that then
<raphink> ok
<Hobbsee> Snake__: and Psi-Jack: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings is back up, so why not add your points there for the end of the meeting?
<raphink> votes ?
<Snake__> Choices?
<Snake__> :)
<raphink> or do everyone agree on getting back to this default?
<apachelogger> yup
<Riddell> poll a) with border (KDE, hoary)  b) with shodow (breezy)
<luka74> +1 a
<Snake__> A
<sorush20> how about giving the desktop fonts some intelegence so that it can decide on thresholds of colour and set it self accordingly... ? 
<incinerator> +1 a)
<apachelogger> +1 a
<robotgeek> +1 a
<raphink> a
<raphink> ok thank you
<Riddell> sorush20: way too complex sounding
<Tm_T> a
<Psi-Jack> Hobbsee: Mainly, because I'm trying to keep up with the meeting itself. And, my points, may be covered before the meeting is up or not. I don't know for certain. ;)
<robotgeek> sorush20: that's a nice idea, but we are out of time
<raphink> sorush20: wait for KDE 4 for such things ;)
<raphink> ok
<jpatrick> and other goodies
<Hobbsee> nyah, lets just have a 2 hour meeting and be done with it :P
<raphink> that was it for Tonio's point
<Snake__> I'll brb while I add stuff to the agenda (I hope that its not just a bug on my desktop...I havn't consulted anyone else..)
<raphink> an hour on the points of someone who is not here ;)
<Riddell> any other default settings suggestions?
<jpatrick> freeflying is sleeping now...
<raphink> Riddell: that's about it for what tonio told me on the phone :)
<luka74> raphink: can I ask now one related to default kubuntu-desktop's? (not on agenda) or wait until end?
<Riddell> luka74: go
<luka74> kpowersave vs. klaptop
<Riddell> luka74: yes
<Tm_T> Riddell: all default fonts are moved from bitstream to dejavu ?
<Riddell> luka74: kpowersave uses a bunch of clever scripts
<Snake__> I would like to ask something about the kubuntu desktop as well...if I may speak after this
<sorush20> add recent documents opened to the kmenu by default and add the recent applications by default to the kmenu
<Riddell> luka74: but ubuntu already has a better bunch of scripts and works through hal
<luka74> I used kpowersave (Suse default) for a month and looks good (at least for hibernate)
<Riddell> luka74: so I (or someone) needs to work out how to get kpowersave to just use hal + ubuntu scripts rather than the ones it comes with
<apachelogger> yeah kpowersave still has some advantages
<Riddell> but I don't want to use kpowersave with it's default scripts since then we end up with a bunch of different bugs from ubuntu
<luka74> Riddell: OK, makes sense - maybe for Dapper+!
<luka74> Dapper+1
<Snake__> Alright, is this just me, or does anyone else'
<Snake__> s icons on their desktop get moved around on boot up
<Riddell> well if someone can change the scripts fast enough it could go into dapper
<Riddell> Snake__: not me
<Tm_T> Snake__: pre- 3.5 bug
<raphink> Snake__: that is not a feature
<jpatrick> we have one week
<raphink> Snake__: we're discussing features :)
<apachelogger> Tm_T: actually I think it's pre-3.5.1
<raphink> jpatrick: +1
<Snake__> raphink: :) good point, thanks
* Snake__ shuts up
<Snake__> :)
<Psi-Jack> Okay, I'm back with my frappuccino. :)
<Riddell> jpatrick: feature freeze?
<Tm_T> apachelogger: might be =)
<jpatrick> Riddell: yes
<raphink> ok
<luka74> Riddell: I can look quickly into this, but I do not promise anything (my first hacking with deb packages)
<Snake__> Tm_T: I think hes right, because im on 3.5.1 and it still does it
<Riddell> luka74: it's the scripts in /usr/lib/powersave rather than the deb that need changed
<raphink> let's get to _second_ main point of the agenda lol
<Tm_T> Snake__: I don't know, I dont have any icons in desktop
<Riddell> anyone know who Nirvana is?
<apachelogger> Snake__: maybe it's another bug you're talking about, coz aseigo fixed that some time ago
<raphink> allee: do you want to talk about dpi more ?
<luka74> OK, I will look into scripts and then ask somebody else to package if I manage to fix something
<apachelogger> Riddell: a band
<raphink> is nirvana around?
<jpatrick> Riddell: big poster at the forums (Not here)
<jpatrick> aprofl
<raphink> apachelogger: that would be an answer to "was"
<Riddell> I don't understand what his agenda item is
<apachelogger> ah, right ;-)
<apachelogger> sry
<raphink> jpatrick: yeah and the automatix guy iirc
<allee> raphink: not yet.  Maybe next meeting.  When I created a sort of About or HOWTO
<raphink> ok good
<jpatrick> apachelogger: rofl
<raphink> so let's go for freeflying's point ?
<Hobbsee> luka74: ping me if you need some help with packaging and i'll try to help :)
<jpatrick> raphink: he is sleeping
<luka74> Hobbsee: will do
<raphink> he's not around but other people have given their opinion
<raphink> jpatrick: do you want to express yourself on it
<raphink> ?
<jpatrick> I don't know really
<jpatrick> let's skip and keep for next meeting?
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> so index-search project?
<raphink> sure
<sorush20> raphink: what is the second point on the adgenda
<raphink> then it gets back to me
<jpatrick> luka74: or any of the MOTU KDE
<raphink> pipitas: are you still there?
<jpatrick> klik devs?
* bfree is Niall Walsh (klik)
<Riddell> hi bfree, thanks for coming
<raphink> ok pipitas is not around it seems
<raphink> oh bfree you're here :)
<raphink> ok good
<Riddell> raphink: where are the klik packages at?
<raphink> thanks for being here bfree :)
<raphink> bfree: do you want to introduce klik to use ?
<apachelogger> I pinged pipitas an hour before the meeting, no anwser
<raphink> Riddell: I got the fuse ones in NEW today, that's the first step
<Riddell> raphink: oh, wow, didn't know that
<raphink> bfree: do you want to introduce klik for people who do not know it ?
<bfree> raphink: what about fusecram and fuseiso?
<raphink> bfree: packaged them today and got them in NEW 
<Snake__> SO what is klik
<raphink> ;)
<raphink> that was my work this morning when I woke up ;)
<ogra> Riddell, oh you want to switch from deb to autopackage ? 
<pipitas> raphink: I'm back now
<Riddell> ogra: no no :)
<ogra> heh
<bfree> klik.atekon.de ... a web based software installer which allows you to fetch deb packages extract and rework them into a portable filesystem image
<raphink> ok I'll introduce the subject then :)
<Riddell> ogra: but if we can have klik as a safe option for people, that's great
<apachelogger> pipitas: we need a introduction what klik is and what it does
<raphink> here is the idea
<raphink> thanks bfree :)
<ogra> Riddell, did you think about reworking gdebi instead ?
<raphink> basically the idea is
<Riddell> ogra: that's separate (yes we have)
<raphink> many users always want to test new apps
<raphink> without having to install dapper or a dapper chroot
<Hobbsee> what does klik do about dependancies?  does it go to apt to get them?
<jpatrick> Hobbsee: it's site
<apachelogger> Hobbsee: it includes everyting
<raphink> and backports are not the easiest thing to keep up-to-date and in good shape
<Psi-Jack> Yikes.
<bfree> it uses apt on the server to calculate the required dependencies
<Hobbsee> right - must be huge files then
<apachelogger> Hobbsee: or at least the stuff any distro might not have
<Snake__> So, we just download the most up to date packaged we would want?
<Hobbsee> gotcha
<raphink> klik generates cmg packages that contain most required dependencies for the app
<Psi-Jack> What what are we proposing about klik?
<Riddell> so the koffice klik file includes the whole of koffice, kdelibs, qt, libstdc++ and all dependencies.  how big is that?
<atie> bfree, curious, does klik still uses fstab to keep temp fs?
<bfree> atie: that is where fuse comes in :-)
<apachelogger> Riddell: well, at this point ... not libstdc++, not qt and probably also not kdelibs
<pipitas> klik puts executable binaries and direct dependency libraries into its own self-containing filesystem hierarchy, compresses them into a file system image and uses a wrapper to mount that filesystem and run it
<ogra> exactly ... thats what autopackage does
<Snake__> Hmmm
<Riddell> ah, so it still has binary compatibility issues with c++ and qt, fair enough
<Tm_T> BTW might be slightly off-topic but is there any jobs to artwork team?
<Snake__> Tm_T: Very offtopic :)
<ogra> Riddell, more evil, i can put any kind of binarys in this packages ...
<Riddell> Tm_T: ask at end
<pipitas> klik is similar to what "AppDirs" were in NeXT and still are in Mac OS -- but it adds the compression and the "1 application == 1 file" idea and the web service to auto-build them from "real" packages
<Tm_T> aye
<sorush20> klik sound like a very good idea getting closer to source intall 
<raphink> you might ask that to artwork team Tm_T 
<Riddell> ogra: well security is the reson why I havn't touched it yet
<ogra> yup
<raphink> indeed
* Snake__ has no vote here..but will try it out later
<Riddell> so pipitas, bfree when I do klik:/koffice I presume that comes from 1 server?
<Psi-Jack> What are we proposing for klik? To add it to an official apt repository or somethinh?
<ogra> and why we havent even a autopackage package in ubunru yet
<bfree> the dependencies klik puts into your final image depends on the packages it assumes are installed for your distribution ... so if a package requires something newer then the users base installed system would have it includes it when building the cmg (compressed filesystem image)
<raphink> the idea is of course not to make it the default packaging system ;)
<ogra> haha
<atie> klik is worth to have as long as new svn packages provided, imo.
<raphink> but it would prevent users from installing lots of unofficial packages around, messing their sources.list with trashy stuff and so on
<Tm_T> raphink: true
<pipitas> For the current KOffice-1.5-Beta testing the KOffice devs cooperated with us to provide kliks. 
<robotgeek> yup, that would be great
<bfree> it's so a non-root user can simply install the latest firefox/gaim/??? without risking ANY potential damage to the system as a whole
<pipitas> Sizes for Koffice kliks are listed here: http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/KOffice-1.5.0_DistroTable
<incinerator> what about dotfiles in the home directory?
<nlindblad> bfree, that's one basic philosophy of UNIX
<incinerator> will they be interfered with?
<raphink> incinerator: well i'm beginning to see if I can work on porting klik to install in /usr
<Riddell> can anyone make a klik bundle or does it have to come from the klik server?
<atie> bfree, I concur with you that's beauty of klik
<bfree> incinerator: a specific klik program can choose to use it's own .files, but usually yes it will mess with you .files
<raphink> we surely don't want debs to install anything in ~
<incinerator> bfree: dangerous...
<incinerator> but on the other hand, what else can it do if you want your settings....
* raphink thinks maybe this topic should actually be brought to next TB
<incinerator> i don't know, as long as klik isn't so broken as openpkg or whatever, it might be useful to be put into universe
<jpatrick> :)
<apachelogger> Riddell: afaik anyone can make one, but it's not common
<incinerator> but I surely would not make it the default....
<bfree> anyone can make a klik like bundle, but all klik://foo links will draw from the one server
<sorush20> how about having a klik package manger? 
<Riddell> bfree: right, that's what I was wondering
<Snake__> How about integrating it into adept..
<pipitas> Riddell, all: I propose to add all the basic info (again) in summary form to http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/Dapper
<jpatrick> sorush20: not trying to replace apt
<raphink> sorush20: non sense
<Riddell> bfree: is there any kind of gpg signing?
<apachelogger> sorush20: would include that you can't move the kliks
<sorush20> jpatrick: raphink that is what Snake was saying? 
<raphink> Riddell: good question :)
<bfree> the idea of klik is that it doesn't need to be managed ... you end up with one file per "klik" so you can just delete it/move it/whatever
<apachelogger> sorush20: big advantage, so you can keep your software on a usb stick always with you
<Snake__> Hmm
<raphink> bfree: the idea of signing packages is that it is reliable
<sorush20> apachelogger: that is a great idea
<incinerator> bfree: sounds complicated to me
<pipitas> klik app files may be moved to any dir (or CD/USBstick) and run from there
<bfree> Riddell: nope, as of now it does not do any checking ... it could be done, but may be messy for the end user
<Snake__> incinerator: from what I can tell, you get klik, go to their site, download what you want, and your done...I guess
* Snake__ doesn't fully understand it
<incinerator> snake: fair enough if that's the case
<raphink> Snake__: that's about it
<Riddell> bfree: that's quite a blocker for distributions to support it by default
<pipitas> Riddell: klik uses fake URLs like  "klik://umbrello"
<raphink> Snake__: you basically download a filesystem image that contains all you need to run the app
<bfree> for example, the koffice 1.5 kliks draw from a different package repository ... the end user would have to add it's gpg key to verify them (most packages come from debian so checking them is easier)
<Psi-Jack> klik. Is it KDE-UI, console, or what?
<incinerator> as long as (k)ubuntu devs don't waste their time with preparing kliks instead of debs....
<Riddell> pipitas: so if someone takes over the klik server everyone is in trouble! :)
<pipitas> fake URL makes the klik client fetch (not the ready-made .cmg but) a "recipe" from klik server
<Snake__> incinerator: +1
<apachelogger> Psi-Jack: actually KDE, but supportes other DE's also
<incinerator> ;-)
<apachelogger> afaik
<Psi-Jack> I see..
<raphink> bfree: gpg keys are not linked to repositories, they are linked to whoever signed the package
<jpatrick> incinerator: don't worry about that
<Psi-Jack> Then I have no use for something like klik, myself.
<bfree> you actually download the individual packages required to make the bundles, only a few kliks will leave you downloading a bundle directly
<pipitas> the recipe points the client to (usually) a Debian repository to fetch a .deb from (may also be a .tgz Slack or .rpm package)
<pipitas> the fetched package is extracted in /tmp and re-assembled into a .cmg
<Snake__> Why should we do this rather than apt, tho?
<robotgeek> and what about different architectures?
<Psi-Jack> Snake__: We shouldn't.
<jpatrick> Snake__: for testing new thingys
<bfree> and that rpm/tgz could be coming from skype/real/??? as well as foss projects ... do they even sign their stuff?
<raphink> to test new apps without installing and messing people's systems
<pipitas> users' "dot" files in $HOME may be effected if s.th. goes wrong -- but never the system
<Snake__> I see
<apachelogger> Snake__: testing, mobility, usablity....
<Snake__> So I could just download this single file, stick it on my USB and it will run wherever I want it to?
<incinerator> perhaps some magic to make a backup of potentially affected dotfiles?
<Snake__> USB Stick**
<jpatrick> Snake__: yes
<sorush20> klik and autopackage sound similar but klik seems to be lot less dependent on the os installed on the computer.. 
<pipitas> but all the klik://koffice-somthing  and the current  klik://amarok-svn-nightly  set up a differnt "dotfile" environment
<Riddell> how does a person get a klik package on the klik server?
<apachelogger> alt-f2 klik://whatever
<bfree> installing a second autopackage can upset one you installed earlier, klik locks things into a confined space so they won't break anything else (bar .dotfiles as mentioned)
<pipitas> difference of klik and autopackage: klik does not compile from sources -- a.p. does
<amu> sorush20: nope, they should be the same
<apachelogger> Riddell: or visit the website, choose the app, click the link and it starts klik://whatever
* Psi-Jack taps his foot.
<raphink> Psi-Jack: hehe ;)
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> but I'm wondering who puts them on the server?  presumably bfree?
<pipitas> a.p. defines a set of "quality tools" to make "better builds" -- klik devs actually would very much like to see a.p. standards + tools used for building everywhere :)
<raphink> well that's quite an intro and I think this has to be thought about
<apachelogger> Riddell: recipe maintainers
<jpatrick> yum
<Psi-Jack> klik would be great as an individual package, but should be just that. Optional.
<raphink> and brought up to TB maybe
<Riddell> raphink: once the packages are through NEW you can advertise them to the mailing list etc and people can give feedback
<raphink> Psi-Jack: of course, it shoudl only be optional
<apachelogger> Psi-Jack: it will not replace apt ;-)
<raphink> Riddell: yes that's an idea
<bfree> Riddell: if you want something that isn't there tell us about it :-)   all relevant debian packages should be there already and many others have been added ... I haven't added any but pipitas and probono are more involved with that side of things
<raphink> ok
<Psi-Jack> apachelogger: The day apt is replaced, I go back to some other distro. :)
<bfree> klik is NOT an apt replacement ... in fact klik depends on apt (on the server)
<sladen> bfree: currently this downloads an unsigned executable script and runs it locally?
<pipitas> klik's main use case (IMHO) is for testing bleeding edge software without endangering the system (some people use it even for having lots of add-on software permanently)
<apachelogger> Psi-Jack: ;-)
<raphink> Psi-Jack: it won't be, there's no reason
<Psi-Jack> raphink: I know. I'm not suggesting it was to replace it. LOL
<raphink> Psi-Jack: hehe
<Riddell> but it does need gpg signing before kubuntu or ubuntu would look at it for main
<Psi-Jack> I'm just saying, a package like klik should be offered. It's a GREAT idea. 
<Snake__> I think it would be a plus for kubuntu...I know i've wanted some software that wouldn't complie or was in the repos,  but I see it on here...
<bfree> sladen: yes :-(
<Psi-Jack> Just like I want to build a Lexmark Z600 .deb for Kubuntu. ;)
<pipitas> klik is not aiming to replace *any* existing package management system. It is *not* a pack man syst and never will be one.
<allee> sladen: like apt did for year
<Riddell> even then it's tricky since it would mean us saying we suggest someone else's packages
<robotgeek> i think it's great, new users might find it very useful. instead of compiling stuff on their own/someone else's checkinstall debs/etc
<pipitas> klik relies on apt for "serverside apt" :)
<ogra> sladen, and modifies user configs unintetional :)
<Hobbsee> robotgeek: +1
<raphink> Psi-Jack: you're welcome to it anytime
<Psi-Jack> raphink: I gotta re-learn how to use .deb tools, first. LOL
<Riddell> any other klik business?
<raphink> Psi-Jack: any time on -motu we're there ;)
<amu> pipitas: well there's should be therorethically no difference if you install a deb, or a set of deb, they should be also easy removeable, without touching the sys :) if not its a bug in the deb package, klick is an nice optional thing
<raphink> ok
<Psi-Jack> raphink: I've also gotta finish helping Seveas fix up his dsp-hijacker. :D
<raphink> Riddell: I think that's it
<Psi-Jack> raphink: -motu?
<Riddell> what's next?  working with debian packagers?
<raphink> Psi-Jack: #ubuntu-motu
<Hobbsee> Psi-Jack: #ubuntu-motu
<raphink> Riddell: yep
<Psi-Jack> Oh.. Okay... 
<Riddell> allee: isn't that irc channel super sekret?
<raphink> allee: you're up
<Psi-Jack> LOL. I see. :)
<pipitas> amu: with .debs you can only have one version of an app at one time -- with klik you can have various. That's why I say "for testing it is ideal"
<allee> no it isn't but when you produce unwnated input your baned quickly
<Tm_T> pipitas: true
<Psi-Jack> allee: Unwanted input == *.deb SUCKS? :)
* jpatrick has to go
<amu> pipitas: nope, you can define a set of package, a metapackge which do the same
<raphink> jpatrick: it's almost done though
<Riddell> allee: I put all the kubuntu KDE packaging on alioth, do you think that's useful?
<raphink> jpatrick: do you want me to save the log somewhere?
<allee> Psi-Jack: as in: OT -> kicked
<pipitas> I'll go through the log and add to the wiki side what has been raised here. See http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/Dapper from tomorrow or so
<raphink> jpatrick: so you can do the minutes
<Psi-Jack> allee: Gotcha. Okay. Thanks.
<Riddell> pipitas: thanks
<Riddell> thanks bfree too
<jpatrick> raphink: I'll write minutes later and there's online logs
<raphink> thanks pipitas and bre
<Hobbsee> ping?
<raphink> bfree: 
* bfree thanks you all for your interest and wishes you all good luck with your next kubuntu release
<raphink> ok allee, next point?
<raphink> bfree: thanks :)
<allee> About 'working to gether'.  It's nothing to vote about ;)
<raphink> allee: :)
<allee> just and offer and to all kubuntu pkg know that it's there.
<Tm_T> allee: that's totally out of question, right?
<jpatrick> I have some KDE packages that I could ask to get into Debian
<Riddell> Tm_T: what is?
* Snake__ goes to check klik
<Tm_T> Riddell: nothing
<amu> pipitas: you know, there is no advantage, except it looks colorfull and it sounds easy, and of course it doesnt match with debian policy.  
<allee> When you use it, you simple work closer together because both sides see it.
<Riddell> allee: what the best process for MOTUs getting packages back into Debian?
<raphink> amu: please keep the conversation on klik on #klik 
<pipitas> amu: it doesnt aim to match with Debian policy :)
<Psi-Jack> Okay.
<ogra> Riddell, the utnubu team in debian ...
<allee> Riddell: hard to tell.  Everything added to KDe extra found it way into debian
<ogra> Riddell, join it on alioth
<allee> when therer suddenly dozends of new pkg.  Overload effect happen :)
<raphink> ogra: :)
<raphink> allee: I think contributing to Debian has been discussed, even trolled on, several times
<raphink> allee: there are wiki pages about it
<raphink> allee: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
<allee> raphink: yes, I know.  How likes it, use the oppertunity,  it's pretty KDE centric and no fancy support tools
<raphink> it's surely a good idea to try and get more in touch with Debian KDE packagers
<raphink> allee: so your point is to advertise this IRC channel, right?
<allee> just a bit of overlap between debian and kubuntu.  At the important point.  the changes in debian/ dir
<raphink> what changes in debian/ are you talking about?
<allee> raphink: no. the svn repo for KDE debian/ dirs
<raphink> ah ok
<Riddell> allee: what KDE DD's do we have these days?  isaac, dato?
<allee> raphink: the repo contains the debian dirs of pkgs
<raphink> Riddell: claude
<allee> Mark Purcell mainly
<jpatrick> allee: like kmplayer?
<allee> isaac, dato and some other help on request and as time permits
<allee> But Paul is the quickest sponsor I've ever heard about
<ArmeBosse> paul ?
<allee> ArmeBosse: Argl.  Paul Purcell, sorry. Mark was my first sponsor :(
<ArmeBosse> ok :)
<allee> ArmeBosse: Mark Purcell that is.
<raphink> ok we're getting in Debian/dev related things and I'd like to be able to set a date for next meeting before most people leave :)
* allee needs sleep
<raphink> if that's fine
<ArmeBosse> yep for kde extras, mark is the the guy
<Psi-Jack> Hehe.
* Riddell tries to remember ArmeBosse's real name
<ArmeBosse> fathi boudra :)
<raphink> allee: is it fine if we move on to next meeting's date?
<Riddell> ah hah!
<Riddell> any other business first
<jpatrick> raphink: anything between 5UTC - 8UTC for me to be there (unforturately)
<allee> yeap.  Nothing more to add
<raphink> ok
<Riddell> amu: ?
<raphink> anyone still has anything to say?
<raphink> I mean another /topic that was not in the agenda?
<Riddell> did Psi-Jack?
<Psi-Jack> raphink: I did. :)
<Hobbsee> and Snake__?
<jpatrick> I think Tm_t did
<raphink> Psi-Jack: go ahead then
<amu> Riddell: klickibunti? 
<Riddell> waiting on Psi-Jack now...
<Psi-Jack> My issues, involves the problems I noticed with, for whatever reasons, the kde defaults for the Konqueror use, breaks the proper use of kfmclient's profiles for File Manager, and Web Browser profiles.
<raphink> amu: lol
<amu> raphink: hehe, thats a real thing :) 
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: what's broken?
<Psi-Jack> As it is, if one loads up Konqueror, as Web Browser, and uses a desktop icon to load up their DVD, or CD, or, even the System Menu to open their home dir, it loads it up into a new tab of the Web Browser window.
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: these have changed a lot in dapper, no tabs for everything, konqueror opens in new windows now
<raphink> amu: oh yeah
<allee> Riddell: startup konqueror, set, eg. show bookmark toolbar, save it.  start konqueror again no toolbar
<atie> Psi-Jack, +1, don't want to see bookmark at file manager profile
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: Does it make /proper/ use of Konqueror profiles?
<Riddell> the bookmark toolbar is weird
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: sure, look in /usr/share/kubuntu-default-settings
<Tm_T> I dont want to mess default profiles at all
<Psi-Jack> Konqueror has a profile system that works abolutely greatly, when USED properly. ;)
<allee> Riddell: it never was until last big defaults update 
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: but konqueror has some bugs
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: Dapper's or Breezy? :)
<allee> but hat more something for lauchpad and #kubuntu-devel IMHO
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: look at dapepr since that's what we're working on, let me know if you have specific changes you'd like
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: Could you send me what dapper has for that, so far? I don't run Dapper, till it's stable. ;)
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: find it on archive.ubuntu.com
<Riddell> latest kubuntu-default-settings
<jjesse> check out the release notes :)
<Psi-Jack> Alright. That'll work too. 
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: or try flight 4, coming out tomorrow!
<Riddell> ok, amu 
<amu> Riddell: all right
<jpatrick> anything else? (so I can do minutes)
<amu> maybe some of you know, heart about it 
<amu> klickibunti is a webgui, users can build their own customized iso images.
<raphink> any other topic?
<Psi-Jack> Has the other issue with the "autorun" facility of KDE in Dapper been fixed to not give errors about opening media:/hd? as well?
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: yes
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: do gi*ve flight 4 a try :)
<Riddell> amu: based on ubuntu/kubuntu CDs?
<amu> the idea comes some years ago, i was too busy building iso :)  
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: Hmmm.. What is flight 4? LOL
<jpatrick> Psi-Jack: forth dapper testing cd
<raphink> Psi-Jack: the dapper snapshot
<Psi-Jack> Ahh..
<amu> Riddell: lets say debian based :) of course kubuntu is the first chosse 
<amu> s/choose
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: Tomorrow? :)
<Riddell> of course
<Tm_T> if there's any artwork needs before any freezes in that front, I'd like to know :)
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: friday
<Riddell> amu: what's the status of it?
<Psi-Jack> Riddell: I'll try it out on my testing HDD, and get back with you. :)
<amu> users upload their desktop background, install their own packages / files
<raphink> amu: link?
<amu> Riddell: i'm busy in onother project, zero time for it now :( maybe a workgroup can handle it 
<amu> raphink: not published now
<raphink> amu: ok
<Riddell> amu: do you have a server for it?  I'd imagine it's very CPU/disk intensive
<jpatrick> everyone done?
<amu> Riddell: yep
<Psi-Jack> I'm done. :)
<raphink> jpatrick: soon I guess
<Riddell> amu: I'd say make a wiki page with your ideas and post to the mailing list to see if anyone is willing to work on it
<amu> Riddell: it's limited to known users, everyone its impossible 
<Riddell> amu: yeah, I can imagine that
<raphink> interesting project though amu, and I can easily see how to improve it
<Riddell> amu: and you have the scripts for this yes?  so it's just a case of putting a web front end onto it
<amu> Riddell: sound good, well it looks easier if i finish it instead of explaining to others 
<Riddell> amu: I think there would be a lot of demand for it though
<amu> Riddell: basic build scripts are ready, the php? code is the missing component 
<raphink> amu: yeah make a wiki and a snapshot of it :)
<raphink> building a live CD requires about an hour on a standard comp
<amu> raphink: sounds possible for a spacial group of people, my hardware is limited :)
<raphink> (2GHz proc with 512MB RAM)
<amu> raphink: i redcuded it to 15min. with an cache option maybe 8-9 minutes are possible
<raphink> you'd need several machines to handle a large demand
<raphink> amu: wow nice :)
<raphink> ok
<raphink> well since jpatrick has to go and is our secretary tonight :)
<Riddell> agenda done?
<amu> high end hardware, dual xeoan 2,6, 2gig ram, raid scsi  
<raphink> it would be good to end up setting a date for next meeting
<Hobbsee> when's our next meeting?
<raphink> amu: :D :D
<Riddell> I say we could have these monthly
<Hobbsee> stupid lag...
<amu> s/xeon 
<raphink> Riddell: I would say more often
<raphink> Riddell: there are points planned for today that we switched to next time
<Psi-Jack> Yeah, more often. :)
<Hobbsee> fortnightly?
<raphink> and maybe need to be talked about before FF
<jpatrick> raphink: I'll done minutes and place on wiki tomorrow
<raphink> this meeting has shown useful I think
<Riddell> well I already have the weekly distro meetings, too many meeting for me :)
<Riddell> but if it's not 2 hours each time more often is ok
<amu> Riddell: fosdem time, i'll show you the things :) 
<jpatrick> indeed :)
<raphink> Riddell: you can come to one over two 
<Riddell> amu: yes please :)
<raphink> Riddell: won't be two hours each time if it's more often
<raphink> I'd propose to have a meeting once every 2 weeks
<raphink> what do you think?
<Riddell> same time next wednesday?
<jpatrick> Good to me
<Riddell> no, 2 weeks wednesday
<raphink> I'd like that but it's not possible
<jpatrick> that's excellent
<jpatrick> :/
<amu> Riddell: did you announced the new live images? 
<raphink> Riddell: we need to discuss some other things before FF
<raphink> so next week would be better for next meeting
<raphink> but next wenesday same time is Dapper Status
<Riddell> amu: not yet, will do though
<raphink> oh no sorry ;)
<raphink> thats thursday 
<raphink> hehe
<raphink> ok
<raphink> well next wednesday is fine for me
<raphink> are there still people around to give their opinion?
<Riddell> would think Hobbsee would want something later
<raphink> jpatrick, Riddell, Psi-Jack, Hobbsee, Tm_T allee 
<Hobbsee> Riddell: hmmm?
<amu> raphink: well maybe my account at k.o
<amu> :)
<jpatrick> next wenesday's fine :)
<Hobbsee> cant go any later - uni starts in 2 weeks, as much as i'd like to
<Tm_T> raphink: all fine
<Psi-Jack> Oh. 
<Riddell> raphink: same time next wednesday then
<jpatrick> brilliant
<raphink> who is fine for next wednesday 20 UTC ? raise hands ?
<Psi-Jack> Any day, around 8 UTC is perfect for me, just like today. :)
<Psi-Jack> 20 UTC?
<Riddell> I am
<luka74> ok with me
<Riddell> Psi-Jack: todays was at 20UTC
<seth> I can do 20 UTC again
<Psi-Jack> Okay. Yeah, I'm good with that. ;)
<Riddell> right, thanks all, I'm off to the pub
<raphink> Psi-Jack: 20 = 8 PM
<Hobbsee> 20 UTC is fine
<Hobbsee> haha enjoy
<Tm_T> Riddell: lucky you =)
<raphink> Riddell: have a nice time there
<atie> <-- love kubuntu.   Bye everyone, good to be here.
<raphink> ok
<allee> raphink: wednesday day is fine
<raphink> that's about it
<Hobbsee> too early for the pub yet..
<raphink> atie: bye
<raphink> goooooood :)
<robotgeek> good fun meeting! later all
<Psi-Jack> Hobbsee: Heh
* raphink streches his muscles :)
<Tm_T> sir's, off ->
<Psi-Jack> I must say. I'm glad to see Kubuntu actually holding meetings like this.
<raphink> Psi-Jack: so am I :)
<raphink> this is a success :)
<Hobbsee> hold it, next wednesday 20UTC?
<raphink> yes Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> isnt today thursday for you all?
<raphink> I'll post to the ML about it
<Riddell> Hobbsee: not yet
<Psi-Jack> This is also what will help keep Kubuntu united as a community, and what the community wants and needs. That's very important to Kubuntu.
<raphink> yes Hobbsee but next thursday is already taken
<raphink> Riddell: sure it's thursday today :p
<allee> raphink: Wednesday is better :)
<Hobbsee> right, so it's your wednesday, and my thursday, 2 march, i take it?
<raphink> allee: thursday is not possible next week anyway
<mjg59> pwd
<mjg59> NNGH.
<Psi-Jack> Oh shoot..
<mjg59> (sorry)
<raphink> no Hobbsee 
<Psi-Jack> I was gonna ask one more question. And just now remembered. ;)
<raphink> Hobbsee: my wednesday 22nd, 20 UTC
* Hobbsee 's brain explodes in a puff of smoke
<raphink> Hobbsee: your thursday 23rd I guess
<Hobbsee> ah, one week away, right :)
<raphink> mjg59: lol
<Hobbsee> gotcha
<allee> raphink: me is normally on the highway on thursday night.  Today is a big exception
<raphink> mjg59: /home/kubuntu/meeting
<Psi-Jack> Skype! Seveas has a perfectly working Skype package, and with me fixing up some final touches to his skype-dsp-hijacker, I think skype needs to be available in the Universe or Multiverse. 
<raphink> allee: lucky exception then
<allee> yes
<raphink> ok
<raphink> meeting is over
<raphink> :)
<raphink> ------------------------------------
<Hobbsee> no!  hold the meeting!  it cant be over!
<Hobbsee> :P
<Psi-Jack> Is skype in Dapper?
<allee> Hobbsee: at #kubuntu-devel  is the fun for the next 6 days!
<raphink> and I'm off for a time
<Hobbsee> argh...i'll have more fun when i'm not so dizzy...
<Hobbsee> lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-22
<wincide> hi
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Feb 14:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 22 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 23 Feb 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<Madpilot> morning all
<Kamping_Kaiser> hey.
<jsgotangco> hi ho!
<robotgeek> mornin
<jsgotangco> shall we?
<jsgotangco> who's here?
* robotgeek is Venkat Raghavan
* jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco
* Madpilot is Brian Burger
* jjesse is Jonathan Jesse
* Kamping_Kaiser is Karl Goetz (not offical team member, but list memeber)
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser, welcome nonetheless :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> :) thanks
<jsgotangco> ok https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<jsgotangco> is the agenda
<jsgotangco> i wasn't at the last meeting so i dunno what transpired there
<jsgotangco> (there was no summary either)
<jjesse> mdke around?
<jsgotangco> probably at work
<jsgotangco> #1 Use of common files for a number of documents. For example, preface.xml and getting-help.xml should be common between all documents. (mdke)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> anyone have an idea about that?
* bhuvan is too late
<jjesse> the same across kubuntu and ubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, just in time
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i think so
<robotgeek> maybe it can be same for ubuntu, same for all kubuntu stuff
<jsgotangco> aren't they common before?
* jsgotangco does not remember
<Madpilot> I assume mdke means the getting-help.xml in the (k)ubuntu Desktop guides?
<jsgotangco> he
<jsgotangco> he's not here anyhow
<jsgotangco> let's go to #2 first
<jsgotangco> #
<jsgotangco> WikiCleanupProposal
<jsgotangco>     *
<jsgotangco>       discussion of approval of the suggested reforms
<jsgotangco> hrmmm
<jjesse> wwhy is it so hard to get doc team people to show up to these meetigns/
<jjesse> ?
<jsgotangco> jjesse, good question
<Madpilot> have people had a look at UserDocumentationBeta?
<jsgotangco> our man from brisbane isn't here
<Kamping_Kaiser> jjesse: because it's such a spread out group maybe *shrug*
<jsgotangco> Namaan
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: it's 1am brisbane (au) time (iirc)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> right
<Kamping_Kaiser> it's 00:37 here.
<jsgotangco> where are you at?
<Kamping_Kaiser> central Australia
<jsgotangco> thought so
<jsgotangco> Alice Springs?
<jsgotangco> anyway
<Kamping_Kaiser> Adelaide (hills)
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, what about UserDocumentationBeta
<jsgotangco> none?
<jsgotangco> ok #3
<bhuvan> its me!
<jsgotangco>  Review ServerGuide sections
<bhuvan> service guide is almost through
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, go go go
<bhuvan> i prefer to proof-read the sections and set it finished
<jsgotangco> how complete is it?
<bhuvan> technically, it is complete 90% complete
<jsgotangco> whoa
<jjesse> that's awesome
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, when do you expect the manuscript to be done?
<jsgotangco> a week more?
<bhuvan> some one should check the english/grammar and what not ?
<bhuvan> if you mean translation, once proof reading is complete ?
<jsgotangco> DocumentationStringFreeze is on March 23 that gives us 1 month to review the document before passing it for translation
<jsgotangco> that's really really good
* robotgeek gives sigh of relief
<bhuvan> so, we have enough time. but remember the status remains for couple of weeks now!
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: does that mean we have a month to clean up the wording, or 1 month of translaiton time?
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: a month of cleanup
<Kamping_Kaiser> cool
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser, we have almost a month to finish up the documents before passing it for translation
<jsgotangco> translation is given almost a month
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, ping us when the manuscript is done
<Kamping_Kaiser> wow ok
<jsgotangco> then i can arrange for a review day
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ?
<jsgotangco> DOCREVU
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: there's a Dapper release timetable on the wiki somewhere
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, you can send to the list when its 100% right?
<jsgotangco> then we can do reviews
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<jsgotangco> (i'll start reading in advance)
<jjesse> can we start reviewing before the doc is 100% or do you just want us to wait for making suggestions?
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks Madpilot
<jsgotangco> we can start review in advance
<bhuvan> jjesse, i want to continue with review 
<bhuvan> jjesse, we need not wait till it is 100% complete
<jsgotangco> i suggest people who review edit the document by only adding <!-- comments -->
<jsgotangco> comments nothing more
<bhuvan> jjesse, imo, we should wait to complete 100% before moving to translation
<jjesse> agreed
<jsgotangco> unless we actually see a typo
<jjesse> to comments
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, agreed
<jsgotangco> cool?
<jsgotangco> <!-- jsgotangco: foo foobar -->
<bhuvan> <!-- foo foobar --> should be ok; author can be identified by userid ?
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, or you expect people to submit patches for review ?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> good question
<jsgotangco> it could be silly to commit patches that only have comments though
<jsgotangco> i guess doc.ubuntu.com will be of good use here
<jsgotangco> on second thought
<jjesse> couldn't suggestions become comments and actually technical problems or issues be actually commeted?
<jjesse> committed
<bhuvan> in the past, how did we handle this situation ?
<jsgotangco> we didn't review much before to be honest
<jsgotangco> no time
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<jsgotangco> but a month is really good
<jjesse> if for say something in the ssh section could be done a different way, then use the comment section to suggest the change, but if there is a technical problem with the guide or a grammical problem then actually make the change?
<jsgotangco> how about we schedule a week of review from witihin the group....
<jsgotangco> then after the group review, we open it up for community
<bhuvan> jjesse, let the author make final correction irrespective of whether it is suggestion, correction or technical problem
<bhuvan> jjesse, let the author take a call
<jsgotangco> unless the entry is very very erroneous
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, in this context, how will d.u.c be of good use ?
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, agreed
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, d.u.c. creates a build of the doc in html
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, yeah 
<jsgotangco> i was thinking of having peer review first before community
<jsgotangco> peer review (those with commit)
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, yep! it makes more sense
* jsgotangco looking at calendar
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, when can we expect it to be done?
<jjesse> how do you limit that? send a mail to only those with commit access?
<jsgotangco> well it doesn't make sense to commit comment patches...
<bhuvan> or, shall we maintain a review file in repo and add comments/suggestions/corrections into it. the author can review and make appropriate corrections in main document; it is just a thought though
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> i don't think we'll have a decision on this now
<jsgotangco> i will make an email later about  this
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<jsgotangco> we'll get better suggestions if we use the list
<jsgotangco> i'll also look at how others do it
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, we should do this in quick time
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> i'll send an email later
<jsgotangco> promise
<bhuvan> once we finalise the method, we can go about the review and sure we may adopt the same method for other documents too..
<jsgotangco> yes
<jjesse> that would be one part taht would be nice to standarize on 
<jsgotangco> ok so we cool here?
<bhuvan> jjesse, jsgotangco: yes
<jsgotangco> ok who has an update for other docs
<jsgotangco> ?
* bhuvan is careful not to mispell jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco should consider a nick change
<robotgeek> well, on the Kubuntu DG front, i have been receving lots of help
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, yes awesome
<bhuvan> robotgeek, you are lucky :)
<bhuvan> it would be great if we insist on a up-to-date status report of all documents
<robotgeek> people seem to be put off by the whole docbook format, so i offered to convert it to docbook for them. 
<bhuvan> ie.. it should be part of make target
<robotgeek> they all learnt docbook, btw
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, understandable, we don't have much choice at the moment, it needs some pretty deep brainstorming
<robotgeek> i have to convert it to follow KDE style guide explicitly, hopefully a decent amount of work will be finished by next week
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, what's the status of the doc?
<Madpilot> bhuvan: Ubuntu Desktop Guide now has status reports that're far more complete, anyway - I added most of the missing status tags last week
<robotgeek> hmm, about 3 chapters done (75%), 2 to start
<bhuvan> Madpilot, excellent
* bhuvan does not see "Help Wanted" section in dg
<robotgeek> i'm still trying to get content in there, removing it later on will be easier
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/KubuntuDesktopGuide
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> its not part of the build
<Madpilot> robotgeek: you should add an entry here - or coordinate with jsgotangco to get it added: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<robotgeek> Madpilot: okay, will do
* jsgotangco should update that page too
* jsgotangco has a long night ahead it seems
* robotgeek is applying for membership so that he can get commit rights!
<Madpilot> afk - back in a sec
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> i haven't updated the quickguide much
<jsgotangco> kubuntu
<jjesse> i haven't either :(
<jsgotangco> but i'll look into the desktop guide and see
<jjesse> for ubuntu or kubuntu?
<jsgotangco> it'll probably become redundant if the desktop guide will rock
<jsgotangco> kubuntu
<jjesse> we are currently shipping about-kubuntu kubuntu releasenotes and also the quickguide
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> well that's the plan
<jsgotangco> but robotgeek and co. had been up to speed with the kdg
<Madpilot> back - which reminds me... jsgotangco, can you politely prod elmo or someone about my commit rights please?
<jsgotangco> (although i haven't read that much)
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, ok
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, did you give him your key?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: it's on LP
<jsgotangco> oh yeah
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: as i said earlier, getting content in there, need to give it a thorough cleanup. 
<jsgotangco> sorry
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, just send patch i'll commit
<jjesse> robotgeek: were you at teh kubuntu meeting yesterdya? i don't remember if you were or not
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: https://launchpad.net/people/yh728
<robotgeek> i was there jjesse 
<jjesse> ok
<bhuvan> Madpilot, in the first look, it seems all "In progress" should become "Review" (ex: Adding, Removing and Updating Applications)
<jsgotangco> hmm mhz isn't here
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, funny heh members should be whitelisted imho
<jjesse> i can look at the desktop guide as soon as my new laptop gets in :(
<jsgotangco> take note "new"
<jsgotangco> wooo
<Madpilot> bhuvan: for Ubuntu DG? Probably, I just wanted to get the status tags in to start with
* jsgotangco wish he could say the same thing
<jjesse> note new: kubuntu chapter and changes were on there and hadn't backed up :(
<robotgeek> ouch
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<Kamping_Kaiser> bugger
<jjesse> but getting them resent so it isn't that bad
<bhuvan> Madpilot, ok
<jsgotangco> anyway
<jsgotangco> we're doing good now
<jsgotangco> in edubuntu side, me and mhz are drafting a quick doc
<jsgotangco> just ot make sure we have an edubuntu guide
<jsgotangco> not to complez
<jjesse> and the cookbook is rocking from what i've heard
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: I'm willing to help with content if i have time
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser, cool...we're going to talk about it this weekend
<jsgotangco> just a very basic doc overview
<jsgotangco> (more desktop oriented)
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: ok
<jsgotangco> ok my TODO tonight are:
<jsgotangco> #1 send email to list about review plan
<jsgotangco> #2 update DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser, i'll discuss to you the plan later
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: np. in -doc some time iis cool
<jsgotangco> ok we've discussed all in agenda, we're now open to anyone who asks
<jsgotangco> oh and #3 bug about svn access
<jsgotangco> anything else?
<robotgeek> i think everyone is happy
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jjesse> robotgeek: will the desktop guide get finished by doc freeze?
<Kamping_Kaiser> do we have document templagtes?
<jsgotangco> wait wait
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ebuntu
<Kamping_Kaiser> oh
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grouches>
<robotgeek> jjesse: hmm, i sure hope so!
<jsgotangco> The [WWW]  Documentation Team is organising documentation for Ebuntu, and for more please contact [WWW]  Manish Chakravarty
<jsgotangco> who is Manish Chakravarty?????
<Kamping_Kaiser> the bloke who made ubuntu+E17
<bhuvan> name suggests, he is an indian!
<jsgotangco> doh obviously! heh
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: ogra mailed on the lists to change the name
<jjesse> umm didn't know the doc team was doing things on that :)
<robotgeek> yeah bhuvan 
<Kamping_Kaiser> jjesse: it's not :)
<ogra> yup, i did 
<Madpilot> jjesse: sounds like it's news to the DocTeam too :P
<jjesse> accordign to the wiki it is :)
<jsgotangco> awesome we have active E17 docteam
<Kamping_Kaiser> got an co.in yahoo account 
<Kamping_Kaiser> *he's got
<Kamping_Kaiser> jjesse:  it's not an offical (or even remotely offical) project - it's not our problem
<jsgotangco> well 2 of the active docteam contributors are indian, i'm not complaining...but this is soo wrong
<Kamping_Kaiser> i don't care where he's from, i care that he's saying the docteam will do (his) work
<jsgotangco> right
<robotgeek> :) 
<Kamping_Kaiser> *gets worked up*
<jsgotangco> i'll look for the thread too
<Madpilot> anyone been to this #ebuntu channel yet?
<jsgotangco> ok that's #4 todo
<Kamping_Kaiser> nope
* bhuvan assumes s/ebuntu/edubuntu
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, nope
<Kamping_Kaiser> no
<bhuvan> oh!
<robotgeek> which is the whole problem, bhuvan 
<ogra> they are totally unrelated 
<Kamping_Kaiser> which is anotehr problem (which is up for discusion)
<Madpilot> bhuvan: see the wiki link jsgotangco posted above
<ogra> but you cant force them 
<ogra> just beg to change that 
<jsgotangco> blingbuntu
<Madpilot> hmm... there is no channel #ebuntu on freenode that I can see - not right now, anyway
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grin>
<ogra> bhuvan, btw thats what happens to most people .... 
<jsgotangco> anyway
<jsgotangco> i'll look for the thread too and react about the docteam link being there
<robotgeek> Madpilot: there is
<Kamping_Kaiser> there's email about it on -devel and -users mail lists
* jsgotangco will remember he signed the CoC  twice with his 2 keys
<Madpilot> robotgeek: really? I can't get it listed in my IRC client - odd
<jsgotangco> i don't think its registered yet
* Kamping_Kaiser tries to join
<jsgotangco> wow bad enlgish
<jsgotangco> i think its not registered yet
* Kamping_Kaiser cant join it... just isnt joining
<Madpilot> ah, it does exist, but isn't listed - odd
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> so what shall we do
<jsgotangco> will I react with a reply to that thread?
<Kamping_Kaiser> edit the wiki page to remove the 'docteam will' reference?
<jsgotangco> hmmm is that the right thing to do
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: how about commenting it out, with another comment that the DocTeam hasn't been contacted?
* ogra agrees with Madpilot 
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: yes, that's probably the correct way to get the same result
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> i'll comment it out and add a comment that contact us about this
<jsgotangco> cool?
<Kamping_Kaiser> sounds good to me.
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> Hi Manish, I've commented this out because the DocumentationTeam has not been contacted about this. If you have questions or concerns, don't hesitate to contact me at jgotangco@ubuntu.com - Jerome Gotangco
<jsgotangco> ok just made a minor edit
<robotgeek> or on irc
<Kamping_Kaiser> both?
<Kamping_Kaiser> nah
<Kamping_Kaiser> send him an email if you want to contact him direct
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> i'll do that
<jsgotangco> done
<jsgotangco> anythying else?
<jjesse> nope
<Kamping_Kaiser> do we have any doc templates?
<Kamping_Kaiser> or do we just rip the guts out of an existing page and use that ?
<jsgotangco> what kind of templates?
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: basic document layout
<jsgotangco> docbook?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh.
<jsgotangco> svn has it
<jsgotangco> we've just hit 1 hour
<jsgotangco> are we cool now on the meeting?
<jjesse> i'm cool
<Kamping_Kaiser> yep. 
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser, i'll guide you later
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks
* jsgotangco looks for an ideal time
<Kamping_Kaiser> how long are we allowed here? 1 hour only?
<jsgotangco> well its ours at this time
<jsgotangco> but we don't have anything on the agenda anymore
<jsgotangco> its best to move back to -doc
<jsgotangco> okay
<Kamping_Kaiser> sounds good. see you all there
<jsgotangco> next is March 3, 21UTC
<jsgotangco> cool?
<robotgeek> i'm cool with almost any time, so +1
<jsgotangco> christ that 5am on me
<Kamping_Kaiser> I'll try and make it
<jsgotangco> okay
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grin>
<jsgotangco> cool 21UTC then
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:jsgotangco] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 22 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 23 Feb 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
* jsgotangco bangs gavel
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-23
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ |  22 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 23 Feb 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status |  3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team
<SaLoMoN> gn8
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-25
<sorush20> where can I put in adgenda for the developers to develop a walk thorugh for ubuntu? just like the demo that is available for windows xp when it is first installed
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-26
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 22 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 23 Feb 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status |  3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team
<ajmitch> robitaille: when's the next TB meeting?
<robitaille> ajmitch:  it hasn't been announced yet
<ajmitch> how irritating
<robitaille> they are often announced at the very last minute
<ajmitch> it's hard for those of us in different timezones when that happens
<robitaille> last one was Feb 14, so my guess is that it will be Feb 28.  They are always at 20:00 utc
<ajmitch> sometimes I wish they'd go back to rotating the meeting times
<ajmitch> since it can shut out a number of people from attending at all
<jsgotangco> 20UTC can be so evil to us
<ajmitch> yeah
* ajmitch can't be online at 6AM local time at the moment
<ajmitch> but it's nothing we can change by complaining at the moment
<freeflying> ajmitch: and that will be 4:00 AM here ,hehe
<Seveas> ajmitch, freeflying: the problem is that 75% of the CC is in london - times have to suit them or there is no meeting...
<Kyral> Chimata....the meeting is today at 1500 EST?
<Kyral> 30 mins to CC Meeting?
<lucas> yes
<lucas> but 20 mins to football matches
<lucas> guess who wins :)
<Kyral> mmkay I'll be here but I'll also be studying...not that I have anything to do this time around, not supporting anyone
<Kyral> Man I cannot wait until GNOME 2.14 comes out fully
<Kyral> that new Admin center looks nice :D
<LaserJock> Kyral: URL?
<Kyral> It was on Slashdot recently...I don't remember :(
<Burgwork> Kyral, you can already play with pessulus and sabayon on ubuntu
<LaserJock> Kyral: np
<robotgeek> http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot?m=3820
<LaserJock> ohhh, I like the gnome-terminal speedup
<Kyral> I recall Jeff giving a brief presentation on Sabayon during UBZ
<Kyral> oooh I love that new Yelp hing
<Kyral> Indexed Man and Info pages
<LaserJock> yeah
<Kyral> YEA!
<LaserJock> lol, they must be going after Ubuntu users - "As every dapper man knows, girls go crazy for smooth looking graphics." ;-)
<tepsipakki> last time I tried sabayon the Xnest-server just crashed, need to try it now..
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> Hmm
<Kyral> I need to email the GEdit dev about adding in Enriched Text support
<Kamion> elmo: here?
<Kamion> mako: here?
* Kyral shuts up
<Kamion> no sabdfl it seems, I imagine he's travelling
<Kamion> still
<elmo> I'm here
<Kyral> Yah did anyone catch the bit about him in DW Weekly?
<nalioth> robotgeek: started what?
<elmo> and yeah sabdfl is, flying according to the board in the office
<robotgeek> nalioth: :)
<Kamion> Kyral: please move off-topic stuff elsewhere, personally I'd like to get this meeting over reasonably quickly so I can enjoy the evening :-)
<mako> Kamion: yes
<Kamion> excellent, quorum
<Kyral> Kamion: it was my last bit :P
<Seveas> coolness
<Kamion> Increase the number of IRC ops/moderators in the major Ubuntu channels, especially #ubuntu. The 24hr nature of the channel - and the fact that the current ops are all busy people - has meant inadequate moderator coverage at times -- Madpilot
<Seveas> let's get started
<mako> a minute early even
<Kamion> Seveas proposed Brian Burger and Paul O'Malley
<Seveas> madpilot can not attend the meeting, but the request is clear
<Kamion> we've talked to Brian before for membership; I think Paul too although I don't remember the conversation clearly
<Kamion> do we have any current #ubuntu ops here who can give us the current ops list?
<Seveas> Brian Burger is a member, Paul not yes
* Burgwork avoids talk of nepotism
<ompaul> Kamion, no I have never addressed this 
<mako> i spent a decent amount of time with paul in the past
<Kamion> ompaul: o
<Kamion> k
<Seveas> Kamion, /msg chanserv access #ubuntu list
<ompaul> mako, I still owe you coffee :)
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCOperators
<Kamion> ah yes, this week it works for non-ops
<Seveas> Kamion, during the bot attacks I set the 'secure' option on - didn't know it made all lists unavailable. I changed that when I heard this
<Kamion> I agree that that list is probably not quite extensive enough for the current size and activity level of #ubuntu
<Seveas> and quite a few on that list aren't very active in #ubuntu
<mako> absolutely
<Burgwork> I noticed that as well
<Kamion> we could check with those people and remove them if they agree
<Kamion> there's not much point having inactive ops around
<mako> well, the currently problem is going to be solved by removing people
<Seveas> Ok, I'll poke around for that
<mako> that might be a good idea moving forward but we solve the immediate problem first
<Kamion> what timezones do Brian and Paul occupy?
<Seveas> is it ok to give myself a higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke jdub every time?
<Seveas> paul is .ie, brian .ca
* sivang glimpses at the CC meeting while in heavy hacking on HUB.
<ompaul> I am in Dublin
<Kyral> Might I make a suggestion? That we have an Op for every Timezone (at least one per zone)?
<Burgwork> madpilot is -8, same as mdz, robitaille and myself
<Kamion> Kyral: bit tricky for e.g. UTC-2 ;-)
<Kyral> eh?
* nalioth is Marek Spruell
<Seveas> Kyral, we need a few more from .au and related, if you have candidates: talk to us 
<lucas> I'm not really happy with the idea of having non-members being ops
<Kyral> oyah lol
* Kamion shifts ompaul a few hundred miles west into the Atlantic Ocean
<Kamion> there
<Kyral> Seveas: it was just an idea lol
* ompaul gets wet
<Kyral> I mean itt would mean someone was up all the time
* irvin is on UTC+8
<Seveas> lucas, generally I'd agree but for ompaul I'm happy to make an exception (and he should be poked to apply for membership)
<Kamion> we were ok there while bob2 and daniels were active
<jjesse> is it mostly australia/asian time that is missing?
<Kyral> someone poke ajmitch for it :P
<Seveas> jjesse, that part of the world is 'understaffed'
<Kamion> I have no objection to Madpilot, and perhaps we can add ompaul pending his membership
<Kamion> but somebody really ought to look out for good people in the understaffed timezones
<ompaul> Kamion, consider me poked
* robotgeek is a kop, and a non-member?
<Kamion> I don't think we can do that here
<Seveas> Kamion, then let me repeat my question: is it ok for me to give myself a higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke jdub every time?
<ompaul> Kamion, I'll stick it in for the next one
<Seveas> robotgeek, #kubuntu ops are generally not appointed by the CC
<robotgeek> Seveas: hmm, okay. 
<Riddell> I appoint them
<Kamion> Seveas: I would be happy with that, but you should check with jdub that he doesn't mind
<Seveas> Kamion, will do
<Seveas> do we need a quorum vote for these 2 issue or can we continue?
<Kamion> (and mention that I recommend having more than one person who can create ops, perhaps)
<Kamion> elmo, mako: any objections to Madpilot and ompaul as #ubuntu ops?
<mako> absolutely no objections
<elmo> no
<Seveas> ok, next
<Seveas> WikiLicensing
<Seveas> "ready to go" means that the E-mail will be sent soon?
<Kamion> hang on Seveas :)
<Kyral> lol
<Kamion> mako: did you ever get a chance to talk to that lawyer?
<Kamion> about the wikipedia PD-self template?
<Kamion> I rewrote the e-mail earlier, and would appreciate elmo and/or mako eyeballing it
<mako> i think i asked greg and didn't hear back.. i should email SFLC or the wikipedia lawyer who i met a couple weeks ago
<Kamion> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing/Email
<Kyral> Someone make sure I am right on this, we are considering a CC-PD license (I apologize for asking this almost every meeting, school is owning my brain)
<mako> ok
<heno> there is still a technical task to be done in extracting those email addresses from the launchpad and moin records. So in that sense we are not ready to go
<Kamion> Kyral: more or less yes, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2006-01-24.html to catch up
<Seveas> Kyral, yes, CC-PD with additional statements for countries where PD is not allowed
<Kamion> well, just PD, not CC-PD really
<Kamion> it hardly makes a difference for PD :)
<Kyral> Kamion: ty
<mako> yes
<Kamion> heno: is that a big task?
<elmo> it's a bit comma tastic, but looks ok on first read
<Kamion> I tend to overuse commas, feel free to reword as necessary
<heno> Kamion: probably not for someone eho knows both systems. It's slightly beyond me though, I'm affraid
<Hobbsee> morning all, sorry i'm late, i dont feel too well today
<mako> jean-baptiste soufron, the primary lawyer for wikipedia, should be online soon and i can corner him
<Kamion> heno: do we have somebody who knows how to do both, or will it be a coordination task?
<elmo> Kamion: it's, okay, I'm, not, really, fussed
<Kamion> mako: if you could let mdke know what the result of that is, that'd be good
<mako> Kamion: ok
<mako> it looks fine to me
<Kamion> ok, I propose we let mdke coordinate the rest of this and move on, then
<mako> my major concerns before seem to be addressed
* mako nods to Kamion 
<heno> I think Gustavo or Adam should have no problem with it
<Kamion> elmo: my wife says "now if you'd written that it would only have had two commas in it"
* Kamion scratches his head
<Kamion> ok, betterwikidocs
<Seveas> BetterWikiDocs specification - can a server be made available to deploy this? (mdke and hno73) <-- Doesn't sound like a CC issue to me, TB rather
<mako> neither really
<elmo> err, yeah, neither
<Kamion> I have to say I think it would be better to move the developer documentation
<Kamion> than to move the user stuff
<mako> i'talk to mark/jane 
<Seveas> kamion++
<Kamion> it's much easier to track down all developers and say "please use developer.ubuntu.com now" or whatever
<mako> sure
<Seveas> the wiki has already moved several times
<Kamion> we had udu.wiki.ubuntu.com, I never really worked out why we merged
<Seveas> having a developer.ubuntu.com also attracts new developers ;)
<heno> Kamion: but there is also lots of stuff that is neither developer stuff nor docs, but people's private pages and such
<Kyral> hehe
<heno> 'my experience with ubuntu' etc
<sorush20> hi
<sorush20> comuunity council people.. 
<Seveas> heno, then et the docteam fold them into the official docs, official docs shouldn't be a wiki...
<jjesse> which is what is happening with h.u.com correct?
<jjesse> help.ubuntu.com
<Seveas> 'them' being the good documentation wikipage
<Kamion> heno: right, not sure I have a good answer for that
<mdz> I'm not particularly fussed either way about which wiki the specs go in, so long as the links from Launchpad work
<Burgwork> Seveas, we are looking at a long term plan for better wiki docs. Moving them is the first step of that
<Kamion> things start out as randomly-hacked-together pages, and move up to the status of documentation
<heno> Kamion: but, yes moving the dev stuff would also help
<Burgwork> Seveas, as the doc team cannot agree on further steps, but we do agree on moving it
<Kamion> mdz: and as long as we stop moving them at some point. :-)
<heno> if we had specs in a separate wiki we could structure it better
<heno> dapper/SpecName
<Seveas> Burgwork, then I think the plan should be worked out completely before we start moving things around for no apparent reason
<Kamion> heno: also seems to me that the search problems could be addressed by cleverer searching that knew how to search multiple sites
<Kamion> assuming they were both on the same machine, I guess
<heno> and then it would be obvious what generation it was
<Burgwork> Seveas, we can't agree on two wikis or one for the doc wiki
<heno> we could do that anyway of course
<heno> Kamion: the 'search problem' is that you get too many hits, not too few
<Kamion> let's assume we had a separate "official documentation wiki". what would the process be for migrating a page somebody hacked together to the doc wiki?
<Burgwork> Kamion, that is the part under contention
<Kamion> heno: I'm referring to "users having to search more than one place" in BetterWikiDocs
<heno> they would be encouraged to start it there in the first place
<heno> (sounds unrealistic actually)
<Seveas> heno, great, so another wiki filled with half-baked pages....
<heno> that would clearly work better for devs
<jjesse>  the "official" docs would have to be editable (if that's a word) by only wiki team members
<Kamion> yeah, that doesn't sound overly plausible to me I must say
<Burgwork> Seveas, I disagree
<Kamion> jjesse: which will exclude a lot of contributors
<robotgeek> jjesse: which kind beats the point of a wiki
<Kamion> people start out editing a few pages of the wiki and *then* become wiki team members
<Kamion> maybe
<jjesse> but if the "official" docs are moved from the more generic docs 
<mako> why don't we just have pages with categories
<jjesse> then they can be better maintained
<Seveas> mako++
<mako> with articles marked as good
<ompaul> well look at it as wiki --> docs so in the wiki it is a $factoid if it makes it to docs or there is a better existing doc then the wiki page gets a reference to the other page at the top and a log of visits but that is all too much for here 
<Seveas> but then we need people who organize that 
<mako> wikipedia has 1,000,000 articles
<mako> or near that in english
<Kamion> and most of the wikipedia articles I ever actually hit in practice are really good
<Burgwork> mostly the good articles are marked by not having CategoryCleanup on them
<mako> and it's prefectly readable because they have many categories
<ompaul> what does wiki.ubuntu have in it?
<mako> Kamion: yes, but they also have articles marked as "good" and "featured"
<Burgwork> ompaul, everything, that is the problem
<Kamion> mako: yeah
<ompaul> Burgwork, no numbers
<mako> Kamion: and if you limit your search to those, you'll get good stuff
<mako> the point is, that there's no need to create seperate wikis
<ompaul> Burgwork, if you measure it you can do something with it
<heno> using categories doesn't solve the search problem
<mako> you may really want EVERYTHING on a topic
<Burgwork> we still have the issue of seperation of help content
<mako> heno: it does if you can limit your search to within a particular category
<Seveas> categories and 'good/bad/needs work' tags will help
<Kamion> heno: it does if you make the search exclude CategoryCleanup by default
<Kamion> e.g.
<Burgwork> people simply don't go to wiki.ubuntu.com for help
<heno> unless we improved the search to include/exclude certain pages
<mako> Burgwork: what makes you think that having they'll go to the new split set of wikis then?
<Burgwork> Kamion, but I want my searches to include it
<jjesse> Burgwork: i disagree
<Kamion> Burgwork: --> "by default" <--
<Mithrandir> Burgwork: "default"
<heno> right, but that requires development
<Kyral> most of our "profile" pages also on are the Wiki yes?
<jjesse> Burgwork: i start at w.u.c and then do a google search if i can't find it
<mako> heno: that is precisely what i'm suggesting
<lucas> I'd prefer to have a CategoryUserDoc rather than a CategoryCleanup (means pages would be out by default)
<Kamion> heno: I don't think we can get away from that - it's not a trivial problem
<Burgwork> Kamion, I was pointing out that there are two many use cases for the main wiki
<Burgwork> s/two/too
<heno> mako: I think that would be good
<Seveas> Kyral, they (should) have "CategoryHomepage", easy to filter too
<mako> the time necessary to have moin have a search that is restricted by categories is probably not significantly less than the time needed to maintain a farm of wikis
<heno> but a separate spec perhaps
<Kamion> Burgwork: dunno, I'm beginning to think that's a feature
<Burgwork> Kamion, no it is not when you run across a spec when you want help
<Kamion> Burgwork: that's a search problem
<Mithrandir> mako: you'd want cross-wiki search, though.
<mako> specs *should* be marked as specs
<mako> and docs should be marked as docs
<Burgwork> then we need to be ruthless about moving specs under a main spec page
<mako> and there should be a prominent link to a doc only search
<Burgwork> so that the link would be wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/Blah
<mako> Burgwork: sure
<jjesse> the doc team then should be the one always cleaning up the wiki or expected to keep the wiki clean
<Kamion> Burgwork: it's a feature that, when we have a new project that needs wiki pages, it can just start rather than having to get a new wiki domain set up
<Kamion> Burgwork: that would be fine
<heno> splitting it up also helps solve the scaling problem though
<mako> Burgwork: we'd have be ruthless about moving them off the wiki in the alternative situation
<Burgwork> still ooks like a hack to me
<Kamion> we'd have to go through and fix up links from launchpad
<Kamion> Burgwork: it's what categories are FOR. :-)
<mako> well, why not in-text categories
<mako> like WP
<heno> which is that the wiki will eventually outgrow the hardware
<mako> we could just have a {{spec}} tag or something
<heno> elmo: ^ ?
<Kamion> heno: I don't think developer specifications are going to be the cause of that
<Burgwork> Kamion, yes, but what does a CategoryNetworking do on the main wiki? specs? docs?
<mako> the way they're implemented doesn't really matter
<Burgwork> do you see the issue?
<Kamion> Burgwork: no
<Kamion> Burgwork: perhaps you could explain better?
<mako> Burgwork: both
<Burgwork> mako, that is much much worse
<mako> Burgwork: you can belong to CategoryNetworking and CategorySpec
<robotgeek> i am sure the search can be hacked to exclude specs, provided they are all in one Category
<elmo> heno: I don't think that's a good reason _by itself_ to split stuff up, we've plenty of avenues to explore to scale stuff up before going there
<Burgwork> but then those that want to search specs are screwed
<Kamion> I don't see a lot of value of a spec having any other category
<robotgeek> with an option to search advanced?
<heno> elmo: ok, thanks
<Burgwork> I do
<Kamion> there aren't enough of them for that, and they're generally clearly named
<ompaul> search should not discriminate
<mako> alright
<Burgwork> I want to see all networkign specs
<mako> Kamion: ok
<Burgwork> another major issue is time by doc team members cleaning non-dcos on the wiki
<Burgwork> I have easily spent 20 plus hours doing so
<Kamion> specs are the responsibility of the development team
<Burgwork> if the wiki was split, I wouldn't have to do any of those
<mako> Burgwork: you're trading a complex searching problem for a fragmentation problem
<Kamion> the wiki team should feel free to punt those to us
<Kamion> you don't have to do them *now* - you can tell development to sort it out
<mdke_> evening, sorry for lateness
<Kamion> if everyone does their own specs it doesn't take long to do whatever it is
<Burgwork> realistically, that is not an option
<Kamion> why not?
<Kamion> well, s/tell/ask/, but anyway
<Burgwork> because often the development team does page editing/moving/creation without a holistic view
<Burgwork> and that is not their fault
<Madpilot> hi everyone
<Kamion> you can have the holistic view and ask other people to do the actual shuffling of their own specs
<Burgwork> ie, they create a page that causes the doc team grief, without even knowing about it
<Kamion> if you take work on yourself, you can't blame other people for you doing all the work :)
<Kamion> the doc team has, to my knowledge, never communicated those issues to the development team
<Burgwork> yes, I have not done so
<Kamion> I suggest doing so :)
<Kamion> then it will be less likely to be a problem in future
<Burgwork> there is another problem, that of recent changes
<mako> Burgwork: some of these problems can be solved with education :)
<mako> don't use a technical solution to a social problem
<Kamion> RecentChanges is mostly used by wiki contributors, I'm guessing
<Burgwork> it is currently very difficult to seperate docs out from non-docs when looking at what has changed. Which means a person realisitically has to look at all changes
<Kamion> now that sounds like something amenable to a technical solution ...
* mako nods Kamion 
<Mithrandir> enhance the recentchanges page by putting the category there too, then.
* Burgwork raises Mediawiki
<mako> Burgwork: what about it?
<Burgwork> mediawiki is designed for presentation wikis, ala documentation and encyclopedias
<sorush20> where is the adgenda
<mdke> is this a general discussion of the BetterWikiDocs spec?
<mako> sorush20: in the topic
<HiddenWolf> It is hard to differentiate docs from non-docs. Good docs from bad docs, and doc's don't have a mandatory "applies to $version" thing, so it is trial and error to figure out if it'll work a lot of the time.
<Burgwork> clear seperation of talk and article, watchlists, internal wiki communication
<heno> mdke: I emailed you a transcript so far
<mako> HiddenWolf: the docteam can tag docs as "notable" if you'd like
<mako> or with version information
<Burgwork> for instance, if someone edits a page in our wiki, I have no way of communicating with them without knowing their email
<mdke> heno, ok thanks
<mako> Burgwork: what is the MW funcionatliy you are missing here?
<mako> Burgwork: talk pages?
<ompaul> sorush20,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Burgwork> mako, internal wiki communication via user talk pages
<HiddenWolf> mako: I'm not much of a guru on the wiki, but a good way to seperate good docs from bad docs and figure out if it'll work on your version would really help.
<Burgwork> mako, some of which can be hacked into our wiki, but some cannot easily
<heno> Burgwork: it should be fairly easy to set up better provision for talk pages
<Madpilot> HiddenWolf: the versioning thing is a writing problem, not as much a technical issue, AFAIK
<mdke> heno, ok, looks like discussion has just spiralled out off topic :(
<mako> Burgwork: so *user* talk pages
<heno> we could even use the comment macro
<sorush20> who is the meeting leader? 
<mako> Burgwork: i've never found user talk pages hugely useful in WP personally
<Burgwork> mako, heno, Kamion lets move on
<mako> sorush20: myself, kamion and elmo are the council members
<Burgwork> heno, can you and I chat about what I would like out of our wiki after the meeting?
<Burgwork> mako, Kamion this spec needs further work before being brough back before the CC
<Kamion> yeah, I agree
* mako nods to Burgwork 
<Seveas> This is going way beyond CC territory... 
<Mithrandir> Burgwork: I have no idea how the mediawiki thingy works, but I know that if you tried to communicate with me through editing some wiki page, you'd fail, unless it gets sent to me by email or tells me on IRC.  How does the usertalk thingy work in mediawiki?
<Kamion> it would be nice if we could be presented with a decision to make, more than an open-ended discussion :)
<heno> Burgwork: sure, but perhaps we should do it on a mailing list so others can participate
<mdke> Kamion, the topic was about the server
<Kamion> true
<mako> FWIW, it's an interesting discussion :)
<Burgwork> heno, ok
<Kamion> elmo: can you answer that much (unless you did so already and I missed it) and we can move on?
<Kamion> as in, assuming it were determined to be worthwhile
<mdke> :-(
<sorush20> have you decied to have more ops in the ubuntu channels? 
<elmo> phone, brb
<Seveas> sorush20, yes, that has been earlier on the agenda
<Seveas> ok, let's move on then, elmo can answer when whe gets back :-)
<Seveas> robotgeek, tepsipakki and Hobbsee are the new member candidates
<Seveas> robotgeek, give us your 3-line summary please
* robotgeek is Venkat Raghavan
<mako> brilliant
<robotgeek> I am VenkatRaghavan. I currently live in New Jersey (moved from Texas 2 days ago!), though originally from Hyderabad, India. Been using Ubuntu since the Hoary release. Yes, I dumped OS X for Ubuntu!
<robotgeek> I am a member of NewUserMentors, WikiTeam and the Kubuntu Team. I have done lot of irc support in the past (sometimes more than 10 hours a day!), and in the recent months started getting involved in the Documentation work. More details on my wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan
<robotgeek> In the immediate future, I want to make sure Kubuntu Desktop Guide is complete in time for Dapper. I also want to more involve myself more in the Documentation Team activities. Since I am an Engineer by profession, I want to improve my packaging skills so that I may package to help the Motu Science Team.   
<robotgeek> :)
<jjesse> robotgeek has been working hard and doing a great job on the kubuntu desktop guide
<Seveas> robotgeek gets several \o/ from me for IRC work
<jjesse> he's picked up a project that was sitting still
<Seveas> he's very active
<jpatrick> Seveas: ++
<mdke> robotgeek is already a great member of the documentation team, he's contributed loads of wiki pages and good documentation, as jjesse says
<nalioth> robotgeek is quite helpful on the irc channels
* Burgwork can also vouch for robotgeek
* Kyral too
* irvin too!
* manicka too
* Madpilot likewise
<robotgeek> wow
<mako> yeah, wow
* ompaul says he is top guy
<Kyral> basically if you say no, you have a lot of angry people now ;P
<Madpilot> robotgeek: the whole cheering section has come out :P
<sorush20> robotgeek: has helped me too alot
<Hobbsee> hehe doesnt seem like i need to say anything
<Riddell> I support robotgeek, he's doing good work on the kubuntu desktop guide
<jpatrick> I've seen him a lot on irc
<Kyral> He's helpful in #ubuntu, he has done good work with EasyUbuntu
<Kyral> and he's kept me from losing it a couple ttimes (big job lol)
<ompaul> his other work has saved me and others plenty of man hours
<ompaul> s/man/person/
<ompaul> forgive the aged 
* robotgeek waits, anxiously
<manicka> his work on the new wifi wiki page is outstanding
<Kamion> looks like sustained contribution to me and there seems to be a fair bit of wiki work there
<Seveas> robotgeek, probably mako, Kamion and elmo are now reading your wikipage, LP profile etc 
<Kamion> robotgeek: what's happening with EasyUbuntu at the moment?
<LaserJock> robotgeek is active in the docteam and has also expressed interest in doing some packaging for MOTU Science
<Kyral> LaserJock: he has? *blink*
<robotgeek> Kamion: fixing a few remaining bugs, i'm quite new to python
<Kyral> yah you guys are still waiting for me to package it no? :/
<sorush20> meetings are not as fast as I would expect them to be
<mako> agreed
<Kamion> robotgeek: well, I'm more asking what the current state is from the perspective of somebody who knows nothing about it
<LaserJock> sorry, got some lag :(
<mako> looks good so far
<Kamion> last I heard was when the automatix/forums stuff came up here
<Kamion> which probably wasn't the best advert :)
<robotgeek> Kamion: it works well, it needs to be packaged in a deb format. Kyral is helping
<mako> yeah, this is good stuff
<Seveas> Kamion, easyubuntu is nothing like automatix fortunatel
<mako> robotgeek: how long have you been involved?
<robotgeek> mako: for about 5+ months now
<nalioth> Kamion: robotgeek was involved in easybreezy, a fork of automatix. the project has since merged back with easyubuntu (the original)
<mako> great
<mako> well, i'm happy with membership
<sorush20> I find automatix to work better than easy ubuntu..
<Seveas> sorush20, -ETOPIC
<Kyral> haha, beat me to it Seveas
<_jason> wait, I can say robotgeek is awesome too :)  He's always on irc and working hard on easyubuntu
<Kamion> sorush20: ... this is why meetings take ages
<robotgeek> thanks _jason :)
<Kamion> I'm also happy with membership
<Seveas> did elmo return already?
<Seveas> if not, should we move on and let him catch up later?
<elmo> sorry, back
<Seveas> ah, cool
<elmo> move on, I'll catch up
<Seveas> ok
<Seveas> next up: tepsipakki 
* tepsipakki is Timo Aaltonen
<Seveas> idle tim 40 minutes, so he could be around
<Seveas> ah 
<tepsipakki> let me get organized ;)
<tepsipakki> I'm an UNIX administrator working part time for the Computing Centre of Helsinki University of Technology in Finland. Current work involves administering 200+ Linux (Debian Sarge atm) workstations and some Tru64-UNIX servers. When not working, I'm trying to finish my master's degree (major: semiconductors and materials of electronics).
<tepsipakki> Interests include GNOME, NFSv4, installer, sysadmin tools etc. I've made some patches here and there, most of it is documented on my wikipage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
<Kamion> I've been working off and on with tepsipakki on various automatic installation issues for some time
<Kamion> he's more willing than most to dive in and get his hands dirty, and has been very useful at nagging me to follow up on things
<Kyral> Jeez, where were you guys when I was installing Ubuntu on 20 lab computers...
<Kyral> ;P
<tepsipakki> =)
<tepsipakki> I have a system that only needs to be documented somewhere
<Hobbsee> Kyral: off at the pub, why do you ask? :P
<Seveas> Hobbsee, Kyral: please stick to the topic
<Kyral> sorry...
<Hobbsee> sorry
<Kamion> ... so I'm more than happy with tepsipakki for membership
<mako> yes.. tepsipakki is great by me
<Kamion> tepsipakki: (incidentally lamont's looking at getting NFSv4 support into mount, and we may get it in before feature freeze with any luck)
<elmo> ack robotgeek
<mdke> well done robotgeek 
<Seveas> elmo, thanks
<tepsipakki> Kamion: yes, I just received info that a new version of util-linux is in sid now
<Seveas> welcome robotgeek!
<robotgeek> thanks all!
<elmo> WRT server, heno can always have a server if he asks for it, but given this isn't exactly uncontentious, I'd like some higher power sign in before any migration off of the main wiki happens
<irvin> congrats robotgeek... it's about time ;-)
<jpatrick> congrats robotgeek 
<robotgeek> Riddell: that was fast :)
<elmo> ack tepsipakki too
<mdke> well done tepsipakki 
<Kyral> welldone :D
<elmo> (tho I'm somewhat disappointed you're not the dovecot author.  same firstname and nationality.  close.  but not.)
<lamont> Kamion: nfsv4 change was uploaded to debian just after dinstall today, should be syncable tomorrow
<Seveas> welcome abourd tepsipakki 
<tepsipakki> gee, thanks! <blush>
<Seveas> (you got approved really fast, amazing!)
<Seveas> last candidate: Hobbsee (Sarah Hobbs)
<Hobbsee> hey
<Seveas> Hobbsee, please give us the 3-liner
<Hobbsee> I am Sarah Hobbs, a university student in Sydney, Australia, doing a Bachelor of Technology in Optoelectronics. I've been using linux since june 2005, first Ubuntu, and then Kubuntu from that time onwards, usually running a tripple boot machine of XP, kubuntu breezy and kubuntu dapper.
<Hobbsee> I'm a member of the kubuntu team, am involved in moderating and providing support in IRC, and involved in bug writing/fixing and some packaging.  My Wiki Page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> In the future, I want to learn more about packaging, so I can contribute more to the ubuntu community, in particular the kubuntu section, and possibly the MOTU-science section as well.  I also want to continue on with the IRC support.
<Hobbsee> darn copy key doesnt work as fast as i'd like it to :P
* robotgeek can vouch for irc support!
* mdke goes to bed, good night everyone
<dholbach> Hobbsee: I hope to see you in the MOTU team soon! :)
<nalioth> Hobbsee: is quite knowledgable and helpful to many in irc
<Hobbsee> dholbach: i hope so too!
* jpatrick can vouch for IRC and packages!
<Riddell> I support Hobbsee's membership, she's done some good bug work and #kubuntu operator
<mako> Hobbsee: how long have you been contributing?
<Kamion> ah, so you're part of the reason the kubuntu team manage to get Flight CDs tested so quickly :)
<elmo> Kamion: stop trying to deflect the blame for the bandwidth damage
<Hobbsee> mako: on irc, since around...*thinks* - probably a couple of months before breezy was released
<elmo> ;P
<Hobbsee> and packaging only in the last couple of months
<Riddell> she first appeared on #kubuntu-devel 2005-10-08, was on #kubuntu few a few months before that
<sorush20> I don't think hobbsee has done as much as the other two members.. 
<Seveas> sorush20, that's irrelevant
<Kamion> that does seem to be true, but OTOH it looks like fairly good going
<mako> the criteria is significant and sustained
* robotgeek remembers Hobbsee from way back, she was an op before I got kubuntu
<mako> contributins.. different people have different amounts of time to give
<Kamion> and packaging work is valuable
* Kyral nods
<elmo> "sudo cp -i --reply=no"  *boggle*
<elmo> what's the point of that, JOOI?@
<Kamion> elmo: where's that?
<Kyral> .....elmo, mischan?
<sistpoty> Hobbsee has some packages on revu, and iirc, what I've seen in packaging is promising... and Hobbsee is often around in -motu
<LaserJoc1> sistpoty++
<jpatrick> Hobbsee has a good bug buster too
<jpatrick> I think she has a record for Kubuntu bugs
* Hobbsee waits nervously
<elmo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxNewVersion
<Seveas> Hobbsee, be patient 
<elmo> no idea if Hobbsee added that, it just jumped out at me
<Hobbsee> elmo: i did some work on that page a while ago - i havent recently, because i havent been usign that version of firefox, using 1.5 on dapper from the repositories
<Hobbsee> s/usign/using
<Kamion> testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are good for me if they reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
<sorush20> I think she should be allowed to be a member.. 
<elmo> wow there are some interesting usernames in the wiki
<Kamion> elmo: the one I suspect you're looking at is a troll
<mako> Kamion: ?
<Kyral> check the changes log
<Kamion> mako: one "Niggerplease" editing FirefoxNewVersion
<sorush20> Hobbsee: how are you aiming to contribute to the opensource world after your degree? 
<mako> just found it
<mako> alright, i
<Riddell> sorush20: ? she's only about to start...
<mako> i'm happy with Hobbsee for membership
<Seveas> that's one down, two to go 
<Hobbsee> sorush20: probably doing some more packages, more IRC - basically continuing what i've already started
<elmo> ack
<sorush20> I have noticed that there are a lot of howto's been done on wifi by all the new members.. 
<Kamion> oh, is anyone processing the launchpad tweaking for new members?
<Kamion> if not I'll do it
<Seveas> sorush20, tbh: that is bad news, it means wireless is still difficult
<mako> Kamion: i'll do it
<Kamion> mako: thanks
<Seveas> Kamion, what's your 'verdict' about Hobbsee?
<Hobbsee> Seveas: indeed it is - that's one thing i'd love to change
<sorush20> maybe the three new members should network together to make one unified document.. to make things less confusing.. 
<Kamion> Seveas: 21:09 < Kamion> testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are good for me if they reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
<Seveas> Hobbsee, contribute to NetworkManager then
<Kamion> that's an ack if it wasn't clear
<Seveas> Kamion, it is, I just missed it
<Seveas> Hobbsee, welcome aboard!
<Hobbsee> thankyou so much!
<nalioth> Hobbsee: robotgeek: welcome!
<Hobbsee> :D
<Kamion> Hobbsee: (do test out network-manager in dapper and see if it works for you, if you haven't already)
<LaserJoc1> congrats Hobbsee 
<Kamion> (and others)
<Seveas> nalioth, don't forget tepsipakki 
<Hobbsee> Kamion: will do, but i use kde
<nalioth> tepsipakki: welcome to the next level
<dholbach> welcome Hobbsee, robotgeek and tepsipakki
<Kamion> ah, there's a kde equivalent I believe but I don't know the name
<Riddell> knetworkmanager :)
<sorush20> Hobbsee: we need more women in Ubuntu
<Hobbsee> Kamion: knetworkmanager, from cvs, which i havent figured out yet
<Riddell> (but it requires a CVS netwok-manager)
<Kamion> OK. Any other business?
<Seveas> Time and date of next meeting
<Kamion> propose 12:00 two weeks time
<Kyral> as always...
<Seveas> please decide now instead of one-day notice 
<Kamion> UTC
<Seveas> fine to me
<tepsipakki> Hobbsee: congrats, and good luck with your studies (I've done some microfabrication courses :)
<Kyral> ....ick...thats like 0700 my time
<elmo> that's middle of the UI sprint
<Kyral> oh well
<mako> wait..
<Seveas> will sabdfl be available?
<elmo> dunno who's going to it
<mako> let me check that time
<Hobbsee> tepsipakki: thankyou, you too :)
<tepsipakki> robotgeek: congrats to you too :)
<mako> that should be fine
<robotgeek> thanks tepsipakki ! you too!
<Kamion> oh, bloody UI sprint - I'm scheduled to go to it, yes
<tepsipakki> and once more thanks to all!
<mako> robotgeek, tepsipakki, Hobbsee: i've approved your membership in LP
<Kamion> if you can do it without me that week that would be good
<Hobbsee> mako: thankyou!
<elmo> Kamion: sabdfl will be there too ...
<robotgeek> thanks mako 
<elmo> (won't he?)
<tepsipakki> mako: rock!
<Kamion> hmm, guess he would want to be
<mako> it's been a few meetings
<mako> with all the traveling
<Seveas> indeed
<Kamion> we could force minions to deliver us lunch
<mako> quick, while he's aweay
<Kyral> lol
<mako> lets pass some outrageous new rule
<Seveas> he wants to bring up the complaint about #ubuntu - has anybody already heard more about that? mako/kamion?
<Kamion> ok, I'll send mail to community-council@ proposing that time and let him respond
<elmo> mako: how about we depose him?
<Kyral> lol
<mako> elmo: if he never comes to meetings, that's hardly necessary ;)
<Kyral> All Members get $1 a day pay from Canonical lol
<Kamion> we'll make it provisionally 1200 on 7 March until then
<jpatrick> cool
<mako> Kamion: good
<Kamion> Seveas: not apart from that mail chain
<nalioth> Kyral: is that retroactice to date of membership?  :P
<Kyral> lol
<mako> elmo: and plus, i definitely don't want his job :)
<Seveas> Kamion, ok, neither have I apart from some supicions from the community
<Kyral> what complaint against #ubuntu btw?
<sorush20> Kyral really? 
<Seveas> Kyral, it'll come up at the next meeting
<mako> i'll leave him to suits and press releases and the pretty girls in karaoke bars
<Kyral> Seveas: okay
<Kamion> Kyral: alleged overenthusiasm about banning people for mention of automatix
<Seveas> mako, pubcon!
<Kyral> oyy....that is annoying
<sorush20> Kyral: is that USD? 
<mako> yes..
<Kamion> ok, sounds like we're done here
<Kamion> going
<mako> i'd (wishfully perhaps) assumed that was dealt with
<Kamion> going
<Kamion> gone
* Kyral gets back to study
<mako> yeah, i should work too
<mako> paper deadline in <11hours
<mako> need to pretend i'm an academic
<Kamion> mako: sadly I think probably not, we'll find out now+2weeks then?
<Kyral> mako: I suspect it will turn into something like the Emacs vs. Vi Holy War
* robotgeek too, avait patches!
<mako> Kyral: i don't think so
* Kyral shrugs
<mako> because the issue is not whether the software is any good
<mako> it's completely inconsequential
<mako> but anywya
<Kyral> yah
<mako> lets not have that conversation now
<Kyral> sorry for mentioning
<mako> my fault too :)
<Seveas> see you all next time!
<mako> thanks everyone for coming
* Kyral marks Saturday as his "Work on all things Ubuntu" Day
<ompaul> cheers
<nalioth> y'all be safe
<Kamion> ok, Mark has mail
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 23 Feb 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council
<Kamion> FWIW community-council@lists.ubuntu.com now exists as a contact address for the CC members
<Kyral> Now can I mention that DW Article about Mark? :P
<Kamion> please don't overuse it :-)
<Kamion> but its archives are private so it's suitable e.g. for private mails about disputes and that sort of thing if need be
<Seveas> Expect this weeks summary in your mailbox later today or tomorrow (depending on timezone and lazyness of myself)
<mako> "community-council@ubuntu.com: use it, don't abuse it"
<mako> sorry, "community-council@lists.ubuntu.com: use it, don't abuse it"
<Kyral> I forgot it existed lol
<mako> well, it didn't
<mako> until yesterday
<Kyral> I meant I will never use it ;P
<mako> well you should use it
<mako> just not abuse it
<mako> alright
<mako> this is inane
<mako> i'm off
<Kyral> yah
<mako> thanks all
* Kyral smacks himself and goes back to work
<Kamion> Kyral: DW> feel free
<Kyral> I was just wondering if anyone read it
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-19
<pochu> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 19 Feb 21:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00: LoCo Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Feb 21:30 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council
<poningru> @schedule EST
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 19 Feb 16:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 11:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 12:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 18:00: Community Council
<pochu> @cet
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 19 Feb 22:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council
<pochu> @schedule cet
<Ubugtu> Schedule for CET: 19 Feb 22:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council
<guerby> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 19 Feb 22:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council
<hjmf> @schedule valencia
<hjmf> @schedule Madrid
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 19 Feb 22:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council
<pochu> @now cet
<Ubugtu> Current time in CET: February 19 2007, 21:35:10 - Next meeting: Mozilla Team in 54 minutes
<stgraber> @schedule Europe\Zurich
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 19 Feb 22:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council
<pochu> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 19 2007, 21:04:00 - Next meeting: Mozilla Team in 25 minutes
<poningru> @schedule EST
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 19 Feb 16:30: Mozilla Team | 21 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 11:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 12:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 18:00: Community Council
<poningru> @schedule EDT
<poningru> 0.o
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Mozilla Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council
<poningru> yarr
<asac> gnomefreak: who is not here?
<asac> Freddy, Martin, ??
<asac> ups Freddy, David, ??
<poningru> gnomefreak went out for a 'smoke'
<gnomefreak> #startmeeting
<Moot2> Meeting started at 22:32. The chair is gnomefreak.
<asac> want to wait a few more minutes to see if others show up?
<poningru> sure
<gnomefreak> thats fine
<gnomefreak> damn thing pms me too :(
<poningru> lol
<gnomefreak> who is here for the meeting?
* poningru is
<poningru> brb
* crimsun is
<gnomefreak> brb == you rnot here for meeting ;)
<asac>  Freddy, David are missing
<gnomefreak> asac: how long do you have here?
<gnomefreak> freedy wont be here
<gnomefreak> he said something about it yesterday/over weekend the more i think of it
* ajmitch lurks
<asac> will be here ... but maybe not that responsive for some minutes :)
<gnomefreak> i have 2 ageda points im sure are the same as eachother
<asac> 60 min. at least :)
<pochu> hello!
<gnomefreak> ther eyou are
<gnomefreak> :)
<poningru> back
<gnomefreak> pochu: we will be starting soon.
<pochu> gnomefreak: when you want :)
<gnomefreak> not me when david shows up
<gnomefreak> who is eldo?
* poningru is eldo
<gnomefreak> ah
<gnomefreak> poningru: and pochu i think your ageda points are the same but we will go over it
<pochu> gnomefreak: looking
<pochu> gnomefreak: don't know :)
<poningru> it is?
<poningru> which one? the tbird and...?
<gnomefreak> nvm miss read it
<pochu> poningru: I'm emilio
<poningru> hehe
* poningru gathered
<poningru> ok guess we can start?
<gnomefreak> asac: if it ok with you we can start with the ones that david nor alex need to be here for like poningru and pochu's points?
<asac> ok
<gnomefreak> [topic]  include thunderbird 2.0 rc in Feisty
<Moot2> New topic:  include thunderbird 2.0 rc in Feisty
<asac> can someone please summarize what was done with firefox in edgy?
<gnomefreak> asac: we added non released ff in edgy
<gnomefreak> securty fixes got us to where we are with it iirc
<poningru> pochu: ping your up
<asac> hmm
<pochu> hi!
<asac> what is released fro tbird 2.0 already?
<asac> rc1 ?
<gnomefreak> asac pochu the issue i see is tb 2.0 is far off iirc
<gnomefreak> rc1 i think
<poningru> gnomefreak: not that far off
<pochu> rc1 is later febraury
<pochu> I think it's still beta2
<pochu> looking
<gnomefreak> poningru: oh yes it is
<poningru> yes beta2
<poningru> gnomefreak: couple of months
<asac> i think its just not stable enough to push a beta2
<gnomefreak> asac: you still have that link you gave me about it?
<asac> we can try to prepare thunderbird package though, in case mozilla releases 2.0 in time for feisty
<pochu> beta2
<gnomefreak> poningru: there is no date set last i heard
<poningru> gnomefreak: nope no date set
<pochu> asac: rc1 should be out in february
<gnomefreak> poningru: its still a ways off there are alot of things holding it back
<pochu> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/roadmap.html
<poningru> gnomefreak: but iirc goal is 2nd quarter 07
<pochu> First Quarter 2007  	Final Release
<asac> that would be too late
<pochu> first quarter
<poningru> ah nm
<asac> all we can do is be as good prepared as possible to push thunderbird 2 fast in case it gets released in time
<gnomefreak> asac: have you decided to open a repo for our packages?
<pochu> I've added this item because, in case final isn't at time, we could get rc, as we did with firefox
<poningru> asac, gnomefreak I still think we should include the rc
<asac> we'll have to see ... take a look at still open blocker bugs et al.
<gnomefreak> pochu: but edgy was a throw anything you can in it before run out of time
<poningru> it is stable enough to be used
<pochu> and as soon as final in out, include it
<gnomefreak> asac: i was gonna show them that link but i dont hav eit
<poningru> oh hold on
<poningru> re: blocker bugs
<gnomefreak> asac: feature freeze is over with anyway. and since its in main its not gonna be fun to try and push through
<asac> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?keywords_type=nowords&keywords=fixed1.8.1+verified1.8.1+fixed1.8.1.1+verified1.8.1.1+fixed1.8.1.2+verified1.8.1.2&field0-0-0=flagtypes.name&type0-0-0=equals&value0-0-0=blocking-thunderbird2%2B&order=map_assigned_to.login_name,bugs.bug_id
<asac> gnomefreak: agree ...its not standard procedure to ship rc releases in main
<gnomefreak> correct
<poningru> hmm
<gnomefreak> if you set up a repo they can get the buids we will have for them that thats a differnet story
<asac> i will ask release team about what they think?
<pochu> I said it because edgy... :D
* gnomefreak will end up with builds of them anyway :)
<gnomefreak> pochu: edgy was a different story it wasnt gonna be stable
<gnomefreak> it was but that fell though due to time restraints
<pochu> gnomefreak: ok, then it's clarify :)
<asac> ACTION: I will ask release team
<pochu> and would be possible to include it if it's late?
<poningru> ok I guess I see that
<asac> will ask about requirements
<gnomefreak> ok lets move on we will hold this for asac to dicuss it with release team
<pochu> ok :)
<poningru> true
<asac> yeah ... but don't be too optimistic ... I would say no will be the answer :/
<gnomefreak> [topic]  Weekly builds for browser and mail
<Moot2> New topic:  Weekly builds for browser and mail
* gnomefreak could have told you that before you go infront of them main is strict
<poningru> hehe
<poningru> ok so in the mozillazine forums every day
<gnomefreak> poningru: we can have them but not in feisty repos
<poningru> gnomefreak: ofcourse
<gnomefreak> poningru: im working on tb 2.0 and firefox 3.0
<pochu> weekly builds from the trunk code?
<poningru> pochu: yes
<asac> i work on a solution to setup a previe archive. we could release from there, but we would need to coordinate builds for different architectures
<poningru> gnomefreak: I was thinking about for our own repo and on a testing team for the forum
<asac> however, we cannot release with official branding
<gnomefreak> asac: ok i only have dgy and feisty arch 386 :(
<poningru> asac: ofcourse
<gnomefreak> edgy*
<crimsun> right, I was just going to inquire about upstream's blessing those weeklies
<poningru> asac: even upstreams daily trunk stuff does not include their branding
<asac> but lets try to push this to the time after release of feisty for now.
<asac> poningru: yes ... just wanted to note that
<gnomefreak> asac: agreed i will still work on them if i get time but i wont focus on them
<asac> if anyone wants to do it, feel free ... However, i think its not the best task to start with on packaging.
<gnomefreak> oh bleh its fun :(
<poningru> so we need to have it on all the archs and supported versions?
<gnomefreak> poningru: best idea
<asac> no ... only those that we receive requests for
<poningru> asac: I was thinking this primarily for getting more people involved for testing
<gnomefreak> 64 and 386 for now i would think
<poningru> as in we post on the forums 'this weeks build is up'
<asac> poningru: yeah ... if there is someone who has other archs we can organise it once preview archive is setup
<poningru> yeah
<asac> ok, move on?
<gnomefreak> to what?
<asac> Adding [WWW]  Thunderbird-Human-Theme to the repositories. ?
<poningru> so... if someone wants to do this just do it?
<asac> yes ... otherwise, I will do it in time after feisty
<gnomefreak> [topic]  Adding [WWW]  Thunderbird-Human-Theme to the repositories.
<Moot2> New topic:  Adding [WWW]  Thunderbird-Human-Theme to the repositories.
<poningru> or wait for the repos to come up?
<poningru> oh ok
<gnomefreak> poningru: work on ff
<asac> anyone can say something about the quality of that theme?
<poningru> link to the theme?
* gnomefreak doesnt use ubuntu themes i hate thte orange
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HumanThunderbird
* poningru too
<gnomefreak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HumanThunderbird
<asac> i think its a good idea to do that.
<gnomefreak> was it wanting to be built into tb?
<asac> however we have to figure out  if this is of good quality and if there is an active upstream for it
<asac> so in case we need new icons, there is actually someone we can bug
<poningru> its not that hard to maintain a theme for tbird/firefox
<asac> can you paint icons?
<gnomefreak> i see that as something to look into but again wont happen for feisty (atleast i wouldnt think so)
<poningru> asac: yes
<asac> ok ... gtk
<poningru> blargh?
<asac> ok ... lets include theme in feisty+1 and if we receive good feedback, maybe make it default theme
<gnomefreak> i like
<poningru> yeah sounds good
<gnomefreak> can we take a breif break maybe 3-5 minutes
<asac> hmmm  ... but then lets hurry
<asac> getting really late here ;)
<poningru> ... dont you dare say its for a smoke
<gnomefreak> and if you have davids number get to calling him
<gnomefreak> ok than lets go
<gnomefreak> [topic]  The necessity of packaging extensions.
<Moot2> New topic:  The necessity of packaging extensions.
<gnomefreak> dfarning: just in time
<dfarning> hey all
<gnomefreak> :)
<asac> hi
<dfarning> my topic is there really  need to repackage extensions?
<asac> general rule imo:
<asac> extensions with native components (e.g. included shared libs) are always worth consideration inclusion
<gnomefreak> i would like to get a few in if at all possible but upstream for extentions sucks
<asac> other extensions not as they are available for all
<pochu> hi dfarning :)
<asac> exception: in case its highly ubuntu specific, consider to include (e.g. launchpad extension)
<dfarning> which ones have shared libs
<asac> enigmail ... colorzilla
<asac> actually thats why we see the crash in colorzilla
<gnomefreak> asac: only one i found like that is the ubuntu forums menu but its eh
<dfarning> ah ok
<asac> there should be not that many extensions ... but there are some
* gnomefreak cant live without enigmail
<poningru> gnomefreak++
* poningru either
<dfarning> should we look at them on a case by case basis reject unnecessary packages
<asac> yes.
<poningru> but why?
<gnomefreak> dfarning: asac how about we work together to come up with a list and see what happens (if we can include them at all)
<dfarning> that is my thought also
<asac> lets deal with them as soon as there is a request for inclusion.
<poningru> hmm true that
<gnomefreak> there are 2 that im aware of with request one formal one informal
<poningru> dfarning: are you talking about removing certain packaged extensions?
<dfarning> we should look into only packaging the package that we need and grab the others from upstream
<pochu> gnomefreak: enigmail+1
<AlexLatchford> Howdy
<dfarning> ill set up a wiki and we can work through them
<pochu> hi AlexLatchford!
<gnomefreak> ok cool
<gnomefreak> hi AlexLatchford
<gnomefreak> can we move on?
<dfarning> yes
<AlexLatchford> what we up to?
<gnomefreak> [topic]  Mozilla Council start-up.
<Moot2> New topic:  Mozilla Council start-up.
<AlexLatchford> aha good
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: all over the place
<AlexLatchford> cool cool
<gnomefreak> we already got one of yorus
<AlexLatchford> thats cool
<dfarning> I have been interacting quite a bit with both up and down stream organization
<asac> dfarning: is that on-topic " Mozilla Council start-up" ?
<sladen> hello people, re: the ColorZilla binary issue, there's a thread on the ubuntu-uk and I contacted the upstream author
<gnomefreak> dfarning: you thoughts on the council?
<dfarning> would like a formal method of helping make some of the decisions
<asac> sladen: i am already in contact with auther
<asac> please lets do not duplicate work
<asac> he will probably release as free-software so we can package it up
<asac> but lets see what his final decision is
<AlexLatchford> can we please stay on topic :)
<asac> k
<dfarning> i would like to be able to present ideas that other organization have to the conuncial for vote
<gnomefreak> dfarning: we can set that up fairly easy. can you outline what the councils positions will be (as in what we do) final member process so on
<sladen> asac: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-February/003185.html
<dfarning> yes will base it on cc
<poningru> wont we have to run this by them first?
<poningru> cc/tech board
<dfarning> I'll bring it up
<AlexLatchford> I don't think so
<asac> i think we have to
<gnomefreak> dfarning: if you or someone else or both can outline this on a wiki as in what council would do what process for memebers should be so on?
<dfarning> yes, by next meeting;)
<gnomefreak> k :) sorry me sucks at wikis
<AlexLatchford> dfarning: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Council
<AlexLatchford> :)
<dfarning> I will do it will seek jonos advice
<gnomefreak> ok sounds good to me
<gnomefreak> move on?
<dfarning> next
<gnomefreak> [topic]  What has been done and what needs to be done from last meeting.
<Moot2> New topic:  What has been done and what needs to be done from last meeting.
<gnomefreak> basicly what hasnt been done from last meeting anything that really needs to be?
<dfarning> for me me the biggest blocker apport so you guys can have good crash reports
<dfarning> good progress this weekend
<asac> dfarning: state on that? you talked to martin?
<dfarning> yes a got a mail back from him
<gnomefreak> yay
<AlexLatchford> I have been working on the wiki more, defining a structure and annoying guidelines to follow, also worked on a few pages.
<dfarning> I'll email you all the detail. cause i can't type fast enough
<gnomefreak> dfarning: is it in progress atleast?"
<dfarning> very good progress
<gnomefreak> good
<asac> ok, so dfarning will email details on apport
<asac> next?
<gnomefreak> that and bughelper
<dfarning> does alex need help on the wiki it is starting to take shape
<gnomefreak> are the only 2 things that are biggest concern outside of wikis IMHO
<AlexLatchford> Well as I have written the guidelines now, people can jump in
<asac> i add content when i have to time to :)
<asac> feel free to reorganize like you wish
<dfarning> I am considering bh block by apport for now
<gnomefreak> ok thats fine
<dfarning> gnomefreak, what are they?
<AlexLatchford> I think the biggest problem we have is TB-dbg package for Edgy and below
<dfarning> i'll hit on that in the apport email;)
<asac> ok ... we'll know more later
<asac> lets move ;)
<gnomefreak> ok that is fine for now
<gnomefreak> asac: your up
<AlexLatchford> I mean we have 100 reports for edgy and below in TB we can do nothing about
<gnomefreak> [topic]  bug tags and workflow
<Moot2> New topic:  bug tags and workflow
<gnomefreak> so you can go :)
<asac> actually i updated the wiki page for bug states ... it should be rather complete for needs info and confirm now.
<asac> maybe we should try how it works ... and then discuss at next meeting?
<asac> feel free to ask if you have questions
<poningru> hmm
<gnomefreak> ok we can push it
<asac> anyway, I would like some action on improving the blueprints
<asac> (last point in the list)
<AlexLatchford> I personally haven't had the time to read the page yet
<asac> AlexLatchford: yes ... so lets wait a week to get feedback
<gnomefreak> i read through it but it was differnet than what was on the tags page
<gnomefreak> but i havent looked at since since you updated it
<dfarning> bug state look like they are comin along nicely
<dfarning> are they stable to add the state names to bh
<asac> i updated tag page
<asac> a bit already
<gnomefreak> asac: what do you mean improving blueprint (when to use where to use each tag?)
<asac> no ... bulk responses
<asac> like
<asac> please list what extensions installed, which plugins, etc.
<dfarning> soon apport will take care of those question for us;)
<AlexLatchford> in /bugs/Triage/Responses
<gnomefreak> ok i agree we need to do some work with that including getting rid of the 3 that are exact same reponce
<asac> those text can be improved. e.g. by run -safe-mode and if the problem goes away, try to figure out what extension is missing
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: yes
<asac> eah ... what extension breaks :)
<AlexLatchford> asac: this is on my todo list
<gnomefreak> cool
<asac> if you need input on them just ask :)
<asac> AlexLatchford: ^^
<AlexLatchford> I will try to get to it by the next meeting, please feel free to submit some on the mailing list
<dfarning> I is would be helpful if you could like the most impost questions
<dfarning> s/like/list
<AlexLatchford> I would actually appreciate it if a topic in the mailing list was started with responses, ill start one up later
<asac> ok ... agree i think i will update wiki bits as good as i can :)
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: sounds good to me
<gnomefreak> moving on?
<asac> ok
<dfarning> yes
<gnomefreak> [topic]  Taking over the [WWW]  Thunderbird package from Mark Shuttleworth.
<Moot2> New topic:  Taking over the [WWW]  Thunderbird package from Mark Shuttleworth.
<gnomefreak> i think that is not nessicerary the more i look at the page
<asac> agree
<AlexLatchford> well I saw the page for firefox, which we have control over
<gnomefreak> its not really saying anything that concerns us directly
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: if i see mark online ill ping him about it if i remember?
<AlexLatchford> I am not sure exactly what owning the package does, but it would be useful maybe for asac and/or gnomefreak for releases maybe
<AlexLatchford> Well I am unsure of exactly what owning the package gives you the benefit of
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: that isnt at our level i dont think
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: nothing
<AlexLatchford> I would like to see Mozilla Bugs as the Bug Contact at least
<gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: mark own ubuntu so he kind of own all packages
<AlexLatchford> cool
<dfarning> I'll work on getting the bugs assigned
<AlexLatchford> yeah, this needs to be done
<gnomefreak> cool
<AlexLatchford> I got another 200 emails again
<gnomefreak> 338
<gnomefreak> :(
<asac> dfarning: what do you mean by getting bugs assigned?
<asac> ah sorry :)
<asac> missed the topic switch
<dfarning> IT is a pita becuase all of the lp folks are working on the lp beta'(
<AlexLatchford> changing them from being assigned to Mozilla Team to the Mozilla Bugs
<dfarning> yes
<dfarning> and assign tb bugs to -bugs
<AlexLatchford> so it doesnt email bug changes out to all the Mozilla Team members
<asac> AlexLatchford: can't you setup a mail filter?
<asac> and as soon as lp members have some time
<asac> they can run an update?
<AlexLatchford> mail filter?
<asac> yes
<dfarning> AlexLatchford, right
<asac> you can filter X-Launchpad-Bug: header
<asac> should be easy to setup
<asac> e.g.
<dfarning> lp team is overall being very help. I don't want to push them
<AlexLatchford> oh right okay, that would be a temporary fix
<asac> X-Launchpad-Bug: distribution=ubuntu; sourcepackage=firefox; component=main;
<asac>         status=Needs Info; importance=Wishlist; assignee=mozillateam;
<asac> you can filter what you want out of this
<asac> e.g. sort by package, by status, by importance, by assignee
<AlexLatchford> well it doesn;t bother me too much
<AlexLatchford> but I would prefer it to be fixed, I will try the filter for now though
<gnomefreak> ok move on. we have 2 more topics to go than asac can get moving ;)
<dfarning> next
<gnomefreak> [topic]  Faster response time for security update
<Moot2> New topic:  Faster response time for security update
<poningru> ok so
<asac> i try my best and work with martin get things up in time. i am member of mozilla security group so i usually get notification in time
<gnomefreak> this im sure will be worked out but we are a new team and trying to do alot of things
<poningru> it seems that ubuntu packages are only updated once the firefox security point release actually comes out
<dfarning> I think kees was just overworked
<asac> poningru: yes ... thats common procedure
<dfarning> should improve now:)
<poningru> what we can probably do is package the rc spins and test that ourselves
<asac> running rc preview packages is good to detect any QA problems up-front
* gnomefreak will brb shouldnt be long
<asac> so this is a good thing to have.
<asac> at best some member of our team can do this on a regular basis?
<poningru> yeah I would love to do this
<poningru> as soon as I can figure out packaging well enough
<poningru> still figuring out all the ins and outs
<asac> i explained a bit to gnomefreak already ... should be in irc logs already ;)
<poningru> hehe
<dfarning> I log were very good I package fx last week bases on them
<asac> i can assist you ... if you promise to carry know how to other members as well ... at best setting up some introduction pages in wiki too.
<asac> :)
<dfarning> I would like to set up some semi formal session on packaging so we are not always bugging asac
<asac> yes ... thats good
<asac> we can arrange some time :)
<dfarning> he need tim to work on the technical stuff
<poningru> tim?
<dfarning> time
<gnomefreak> time
<poningru> oh
<poningru> lol
<poningru> I was thinking s/he/we
* gnomefreak working on what i see as hard packaging with tb a ff betas
<gnomefreak> i wasnt here is that done?
<gnomefreak> we have one more i wouold like asac output on
<dfarning> we will set up semi formal learning time slots to better ulitize our expert resources
<dfarning> next
<asac> :) well phrased :)
<gnomefreak> [topic]  renaming packages
<Moot2> New topic:  renaming packages
<gnomefreak> ok renaming mozilla-thunderbird to thunderbird
<asac> ah ... ok renaming packages is always a pita ... and hardly worth the efford.
<asac> i see that its inconsitent atm
<gnomefreak> and mozilla-firefox to just firefox
<asac> but would like to defer that to post feisty
<poningru> whats the reason?
<gnomefreak> although i think we dropped mozilla-firefox transitinal package
<asac> the reason firefox was renamed is that debian renamed both, but nobody was here to do the proper thunderbird transition
<AlexLatchford> So if you are going to follow with Thunderbird it will be in Feisty+1
<AlexLatchford> ?
<AlexLatchford> s/you/we/
<gnomefreak> most liekly
<asac> thats why we are at the current state
<AlexLatchford> ish
<dfarning> there is not consistant name because of renaming that occured before the branking agreement
<poningru> ah ic
<gnomefreak> likely
<asac> we currently work with mozilla to clarify if they want mozilla- prefix or not
<AlexLatchford> hmm okay, just seems like at the moment there are a load of naming inconsistencies, flash also being a major problem
<gnomefreak> asac: dfarning is this something to look forward to for feisty+1?
<dfarning> defer to feisty+1
<AlexLatchford> sounds good to me
<dfarning> bug catchup more important for now
<AlexLatchford> agreed
<asac> probably when upgrading to 2.0 we can change name
<AlexLatchford> seems sensible
<asac> for now it matters that we build tbird with official branding.
<gnomefreak> Faster response time for security update  is the bug that i brought that up about
<gnomefreak> hmmmmmmm
<poningru> quick offtopic: is anyone building ff 2.0.0.2 r4?
<gnomefreak> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mozilla-thunderbird/+bug/70937
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70937 in mozilla-thunderbird "Package "mozilla-thunderbird" should be renamed to "thunderbird"" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
<gnomefreak> poningru: i have it on to do list
<poningru> gnomefreak: I wanna help
<asac> ok ... is that it?
<gnomefreak> [topic]  Any other matters that we missed or needs to be discussed?
<Moot2> New topic:  Any other matters that we missed or needs to be discussed?
<AlexLatchford> none from me
<dfarning> i am satisified
<gnomefreak> asac: go go go :)
<gnomefreak> #endmeeting
<Moot2> Meeting finished at 23:50.
<asac> cu all!
<AlexLatchford> buh bye
<gnomefreak> bye :)
<dfarning> meet again in 2 weeks
<gnomefreak> ok someone needs to figure out the bot stuff now
<AndrewWilliams> Meeting log can be found at: http://rimmer.incognitus.net/~mootbot/ubuntu-meeting.20070219_2232.html, and full irc log at: http://rimmer.incognitus.net/~mootbot/ubuntu-meeting.log.20070219_2232.html
<dfarning> thank for all your hard work
<gnomefreak> is that another bot?
<poningru> awesome
* dfarning goes back to hospital
<AlexLatchford> lol gnomefreak no, he is the person commanding the bot
<gnomefreak> ah
<AlexLatchford> gnomefreak: if you want I will help chair the next meeting?
<gnomefreak> thats fine
<gnomefreak> who wants to clean the wiki?
<AlexLatchford> leave it up for now
<gnomefreak> k
<AlexLatchford> i need to make the minutes
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-20
<lotusleaf> Kubuntu, I love you!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<EicheS> :(
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-21
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00: Community Council
* #ubuntu-meeting  [freenode-info]  channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 21 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council
<willvdl> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00: Community Council
<cbx33> Hi all I'm here for 10 mins
<cbx33> so if you wanna ask me anything....ask now
<willvdl> okie
<willvdl> what's the land speed of the african swallow?
<cbx33> um...
<cbx33> noooooooooooooooooo
<willvdl> he
<cbx33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuArtwork/Palette
<cbx33> could you put that up at artwork section
<willvdl> will do
<willvdl> TCM update?
<cbx33> and for tech...I have done a lot of bug fixing for TCM
<cbx33> vnc is much more stable
<cbx33> working a lot more on it today
<juliux> cbx33, is in feisty now a tcm version that usable?
<willvdl> cool
<cbx33> juliux: useable yes
<juliux> cbx33, great
<cbx33> still has bugs
<cbx33> a nasty one at the mo, that I'll need ogras help fixing
<juliux> i tested on version on the weekend but there was still your two example users
<cbx33> juliux, that has been fixed
<juliux> cbx33, great
<cbx33> the scp-client program is started under Xsession
<cbx33> but it can't communicate with the gnome-screensaver instance
<cbx33> so it can't blank screens etc
<highvoltage> hi cbx33, willvdl and juliux
<highvoltage> juliux: pong, btw ;)
<juliux> hey highvoltage
<highvoltage> and jsgotangco too :)
<willvdl> hey
<cbx33> this is very annoying bug
<cbx33> but I hope we can solve it soon
<willvdl> sweet
<cbx33> i think that's it
<cbx33> chapter is going through final stages of checking
<willvdl> can't wait for that one
<cbx33> oh and anyone wanting to look at any of my side projects....Iopened up my own repo, which will probably hold devel debs of tcm too
<willvdl> malone registered?
<cbx33> deb http://progbox.co.uk/repo edgy-cbx33 extras
<cbx33> can you register a repo with malone?
<willvdl> oh. sorry thought you ment LP
* cbx33 didn't know this
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> tcm now has a product
<cbx33> on LP
<willvdl> well, if you use bugzilla etc. then yes
<cbx33> so please test and bug report
<juliux> i will test it
<cbx33> thanks juliux the vnc won;t work as yet
<cbx33> and that version isn't in the repos yet
<cbx33> need ogra to debdiff it
<cbx33> but i can give you a manual set of packages if you're interested
<juliux> cbx33, did you have .deb?
<cbx33> i will do tonight
* juliux has now an extra test computer so he can reset the computer every day;)
<willvdl> sounds like my laptop
<highvoltage> I wanted to ask your feedback on something
<juliux> cbx33, i am off from 23-28 but bevor and after that i can test
<highvoltage> I want to put together an edubuntu metapackage for Kubuntu, that will transform Kubuntu into an Edubuntu-KDE machine. does anyone think that's worth while?
<cbx33> yes
<willvdl> yeah. sounds interesting. what would it do exactly?
<juliux> highvoltage, why not with xubuntu?
<Riddell> highvoltage: sure, but I've no idea how well all the LTSP stuff works in KDE so testing that would be needed first (it should all work in theory, but I've not heard of anyone who's tried it)
<highvoltage> juliux: we do that with tuxlabs, and edubuntu is going to get an official, supported Xfce on edubuntu's 2nd disc
<highvoltage> (at least, I think it will be supported)
<juliux> Riddell, i think skolelinux is using kde with ltsp
<cbx33> I'm off.... juliux would appreciate that testing...and on the groups and filtering....right click in the user name area
<willvdl> Riddell, I know of a few small groups that do it, but can't think off hand of anyone large and reputable
<Riddell> juliux: yeah, the basics will work fine, it's all X
<Riddell> but I'm curious to know how well kdm, sound, mounting devices etc works
<willvdl> cbx33, ciao
<highvoltage> Riddell: the LTSP parts works fine with LTSP, the only part that I think I might have trouble with might be the Edubuntu KDM theme, since I haven't made a KDM theme yet
<highvoltage> Riddell: but I'm sure there's lots of people on #kubuntu that could help me, and it can't be much more complicated than a GDM theme :)
<Riddell> highvoltage: anyway, I would think it worthwhile if you're willing to maintain it, it just needs a branch of the seeds, edubuntu-meta and kubuntu-default-settings for artwork
<Riddell> highvoltage: #kubuntu-devel will happily help
<highvoltage> Riddell: great. at first I'll just put it in my own server for people to play with, if the response is good, and there's one or two people willing to give a hand, we can probably get it into universe quite quickly
<Mithrandir> note that featurefreeze for universe is tomorrow.
<Riddell> but, and this is the most important point, it may not be called kedubuntu, that would be a grave offence
<highvoltage> Riddell: noted ;)
<Mithrandir> edukubuntu would be better?
* Mithrandir hides.
<highvoltage> Mithrandir: ok, it might have to go into feisty+1 then, which would give a better amount of testing, which is good
* highvoltage thought of calling the metapackage just edubuntu-kde initially
<Riddell> yes, edubuntu-kde is good
* Riddell takes it to #kubuntu-devel
<willvdl> moving on. Docs?
<willvdl> I've been working round the clock on my NEPAD stuff and am not likely to get the chance that I hoped for to work on hbook
<willvdl> before the 28th
<willvdl> but I finished wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu , it just needs a "miscellaneuous" section
<willvdl> anyone else?
<willvdl> otherwise I need to go. got horrid fever
<juliux> willvdl,  i have something technical;9
<willvdl> shoot
<juliux> i have tested edubuntu on a sparc
<cliebow_> bbl
<juliux> and it is working well with i386 clients
<highvoltage> willvdl: I LOVE the new wiki page!
<willvdl> juliux, which sparc?
<juliux> willvdl, an old ultra 60
<juliux> it is a 64bit sparc
<willvdl> juliux, great
<willvdl> On that note, I'm struggling. I gotto go. I'll be in on Monday again.
<juliux> i will write a wiki page about that
<willvdl> ciao folks. my apologies
<highvoltage> cbx33 and willvdl have left, and RichEd, ogra and pips1 isn't available
<highvoltage> shall we call this meeting to and end and conclude it as the shorted edubuntu meeting ever?
<juliux> highvoltage, +1
<jsgotangco> no!
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: you have the floor. enjoy!
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> let's talk about edubuntu in ps3
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> please ignore jsgotangco
<highvoltage> /ignore jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> bwahaha
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> * MEETING ADJOURNED
* cbx33 is back
<jsgotangco> cbx33: it was a fairly short meeting
<cbx33> i guessed as much
<givre> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 16:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00: Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 21 Feb 11:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 12:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 18:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 15:00: Technical Board
<fernando> @schedule brazil
<fernando> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 21 Feb 13:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 14:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 17:00: Technical Board
<cbx33> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: Current meeting: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kernel Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<_kyle> morning ben.
<BenC> good morning
<pochu> @now cet
<Ubugtu> Current time in CET: February 21 2007, 16:53:19 - Current meeting: Kernel Team
<pochu> BenC: the clock is fine :)
<BenC> @now UTC
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2007, 15:53:37 - Current meeting: Kernel Team
<zul> heylo
<BenC> 16:00 is the meeting time
<pochu> hi zul :)
<BenC> so I guess it's just preemptive
<zul> heh its hurry up and wait
<BenC> Just waiting on rtg
* _kyle twiddles thumbs.
* zul whistles
<pochu> BenC: is there an agenda?
<BenC> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<BenC> Agenda is there
<pochu> ty :)
* pochu is very curious :)
<BenC> Ok, time to start
<BenC> First, I want to thank anyone from the community who is joining us
<BenC> This is the first of our team meetings, and hopefully it will turn into a means of us organizing with the community better, and bring in new people to help out
<BenC> In case anyone missed it, the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<BenC> I was hoping mjg59 would be here for the first item, so we'll skip to the second in case he shows up later on
<BenC> pkl_: You added the second item: Status of Unionfs. Discuss whether to include Unionfs 2.0 in Feisty kernel.
<pkl_> Yeah...
<pkl_> A bug has been raised against the current version of Unionfs (just getting it).
<BenC> pkl_: Does the bug affect just feisty, or does this affect edgy and prior as well?
<pkl_> #85145...
<BenC> bug 85145
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 85145 in linux-source-2.6.20 "run-init crashes when root is unionfs on nfs" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85145
<zul> oh this is the initramfs thingy?
<pkl_> It was raised against initamfs, but it isn't anything to do with it.
<BenC> So dapper is ok, it's just feisty
<pkl_> It is a pure Unionfs on NFS branch bug.  Recent changes (post 2.6.18) means NFS oopses on a NULL pointer.
<BenC> I wonder if this has anything to do with some of the fs changes I had to do during .19/.20
<zul> couldnt you just backport the fix rather than updating to 2.0?
<BenC> so is the bug NFS or unionfs? Is updating to unionfs just working around the real bug?
<pkl_> This has been fixed, but, only in Unionfs 2.0.  A new call lookup_one_len_nd has been added.
<pkl_> Very difficult question to answer BenC:  Both the Unionfs and NFS people has engaged in a lot of finger pointing...
<BenC> Ah, upstream politics
<pkl_> But the major issue appears to be recent NFSv4 changes.
<BenC> pkl_: Unionfs is used quite a bit in our livecd's, and I would prefer this late in the game not to bump major versions on it
<BenC> pkl_: Is the fix easily isolated?
<pkl_> I'll see if I can back port the essential fix (which is to add and use lookup_one_len_nd() which passes the necessary pointer)  to 1.2 Unionfs.
<pkl_> This essentially should be all that's required.
<BenC> pkl_: Ok, sounds like a good plan
<BenC> Looks like mjg59 wont be able to make it, so we'll cover d80211 sans his expertise
<BenC> _kyle: You have some newer crack than I have in the repo...how's that coming?
<_kyle> good, i'm going to push it into a branch for you to look at in about 5 seconds.
<BenC> flash-kyle
<BenC> _kyle: Do you have any hw to test the drivers using it?
<_kyle> er, unless i accidently nuked that tree... err...
<_kyle> BenC: bcm43xx
<Nafallo> _kyle: <3 backup
<BenC> I was going to do a 2.6.20-9 upload today, but if you think you can get d80211 working, I can hold off
<_kyle> i have an atheros card too, but it's minipci, and gutting my thinkpad is always a pain.
<_kyle> BenC: when do you intend to upload next after this?
<BenC> hopefully over the weekend
<BenC> uploads have been getting too far apart, I need to make them more frequent
<_kyle> ok. i have some hppa crack to push for jeff so we can have a buildable.
<BenC> _kyle: FYI, the bcm43xx-dscpape driver lacks a MODULE_DEV_TABLE, so if you want to use it, just manually load it (after unloading the bcm43xx driver)
<_kyle> yeah, i saw those commits.
<BenC> Ok, let's move on to what I know is everyone's favorite subject...bugs
<zul> yippe skippe
<BenC> I didn't have time to write up a "how to triage" bugs, but there's plenty of them on the ubuntu wiki for general bug work, and the kernel isn't much different
<BenC> Basically what we need to aim for is to not let the untriaged bug list get so big
<zul> what is the list at now?
<BenC> it's safe to assume we wont be able to fix all the bugs, because we either don't have hardware where the bug is occurring, or it's the type of bug that happened once, and will never happen again
<BenC> zul: ~250 when I checked last night (2.6.20)
<pkl_> that's all bugs, right?
<BenC> But what I want to make sure is that we at least respond to all incoming bugs
<BenC> pkl_: All open bugs on 2.6.20 kernel
<BenC> For those that aren't aware, I've been working with launchpad folks to try and get some features in that will make bug triaging a lot easier
<pkl_> A response along the lines of "go away we're not going to fix this" is better than no response?
<BenC> pkl_: A little better wording, but pretty much :)
<BenC> The main thing for a new bug right now is getting all the normal information (dmesg, screen photo of it's a solid lock with traceback, lspci, etc)
<zul> please no automated bug scripts as well
<BenC> 9 times out of 10, the bugs just don't have enough info
<BenC> Yeah, make sure you ask for information pertinent to the bug
<BenC> we don't need dmidecode when someone's ext3 partition gets corrupt
<BenC> The second step after getting the info is to classify the severity, there's a wiki with severity ratings (someone will paste it in a few minutes I'm sure)
<BenC> Once all the info is collected, set the status (confirmed, most times)
<BenC> During this process, once you take on triaging a bug, assign it to yourself
<BenC> Once you start working on it, set it to In Progress, etc...Once it's in git, set it to fix committed, and once we upload it, set it to fix released
<BenC> Any bug that is marked Confirmed and Importance > Medium should be fixed asap
<Mithrandir> and if it's important to get fixed before release, please assign either the next milestone to it or 7.04 if it's not possible to get done before the next milestone.
<BenC> either by yourself, or bringing it up to the rest of the team
<BenC> Correct
<Mithrandir> (7.10 for feisty+1, etc, naturally)
<zul> how long per day should we spend on bug hunting (kernel team vs community)?
<BenC> zul: Community is welcome to work on it as long as they want :)
<BenC> I would expect core kernel team to spend some time on it every day, probably set aside 1-2 hours for just triaging, and more as needed for actual debug
<fdoving> looks like the bcm43xx item is done already, but for whom it may concern bug 85404 is reported by Michael Buesch concerning the state of bcm43xx in the recent feisty kernel.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 85404 in linux-source-2.6.20 "bcm43xx completely broken in feisty" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85404
<BenC> fdoving: Yes, we're aware of it, and it is fixed in git
<BenC> pkl_, _kyle, rtg: Any questions?
<fdoving> good, thanks :)
<_kyle> nyet.
<rtg> Nope.
<pkl_> no
<BenC> Ok, let's get down to the nitty gritty of the 2.6.20 bug list :)
<BenC> 263 bugs, 122 unconfirmed, 233 unassigned
<BenC> How many does everyone have assigned to themselves?
<zul> no idea :)
<rtg> I've been working on the various suspend problems, but have not assigned any to myself yet.
<BenC> Only 30 bugs assigned :)
<pkl_> I've working through a number, but have not assigned any to myself.
<BenC> Assigning it to yourself doesn't mean you are committing to fix it
<BenC> So let's work on getting that 122 and 233 down to near nothing by the end of next week
<pkl_> OK.  What does assigning it signify?
<BenC> the 122 is where community can help the most (confirming bugs by getting all relevant info to reproduce and/or debug it)
<zul> sure..
<BenC> pkl_: Means you are giving the submitter someone to talk to about the bug
<pkl_> Ah good.  Terminology strikes again.  In many previous roles. assigning it basically takes an 'exclusive lock' on the bug.
<BenC> you get the info you need to debug it, and keep them up-to-date on the status via the bug status. milestone and comments
<BenC> I would say if the bug gets to the point where you know it's confirmed, and you cannot fix it, then assign it to the ubuntu-kernel-team in general
<BenC> we'll consider those bugs for discussion at meetings, or when time permits during normal hours
<BenC> Community can do that as well, if the bug has all relevant info, we can pull from the ubuntu-kernel-team assigned list to assign to ourselves
<BenC> I'm going to action item me to detail all this on the KernelTeam wiki
<BenC> Any questions, comments?
<zul> nope
<pkl_> No, I'm happy.
<BenC> Ok, we have about 18 minutes left if anyone has anything to bring up
<BenC> This is also a good time for community to ask the kernel-team any questions
<zul> i just want to confirm the kernel for feisty+1
<cbx33> can I ask a question?
<BenC> zul: We'll make that decision in Seville
<zul> .22?
<BenC> zul: It could be .23, depends on time frame
<BenC> cbx33: Sure
<cbx33> I'm still running edgy, but i cannot suspend it gnome-network-manager is running with ndiswrapper
<cbx33> is this common?
<cbx33> it just locks with gnome-screensaver instead
<BenC> cbx33: This is a better question for #ubuntu-kernel, but yes, ndiswrapper is notoriously sucky...it is running win32 code afterall
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> that's fine
<cbx33> another question
<cbx33> I work in a school and am a contributor to Edubuntu
<abogani> BenC: Only one question (yes or no type): Do you think that my work on my spec (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/realtime) will be useful in the future? Thank you
<cbx33> I want to get some interactive whiteboards working in edubuntu, how hard is it to write a device driver?
<BenC> abogani: Absolutely...I have to say that the stock Ubuntu kernel cannot take on the RT patchset until it is merged with Linus' tree though. However a separate kernel like what is done for xen is entirely possible.
<cbx33> abogani, don't the ubuntu-studio guys have a low latency kernel?
<BenC> cbx33: It all depends on if the specs are available for the device. There's the Linux Device Drivers manual available freely on the internet
<cbx33> ok
<pochu> I have a little question (don't know if it's stupid): will we support wpa out-of-the-box? :-)
<cbx33> thanks BenC
<crimsun> there is a -lowlatency* set (universe & multiverse), yes
<Mithrandir> the archive team is not going to accept random kernels nilly-willy and as a start, they have to be done as patch sets against linux-source-$version
<BenC> cbx33: See the KernelTeam/FAQ wiki about patches like -rt :)
<crimsun> pochu: (already do via NM for some chipsets.)
<BenC> it details what Mith said aswell
<zul> Mithrandir: that will happen for feisty+1 with xen fyi
<Mithrandir> zul: good to hear.
<BenC> xen, the butt of all jokes
<zul> thanks..
<crimsun> 'unconfirmed' audio bugs against linux-source-2.6.20 are now triaged.
<BenC> crimsun: BTW, you rock...thanks for keeping up with audio bugs and patches
<BenC> Any more random questions?
<BenC> pkl_, _kyle, rtg: Anything to add?
<_kyle> nope.
<pkl_> no.
<rtg> Lots 'o bugs to look at.
<dholbach> Was that the first Kernel Team meeting?
<pochu> dholbach: yes
<BenC> dholbach: The first public one
<dholbach> Congratulations! I hope you'll attract a lot of community people to it!
<BenC> we've been doing secret-hand-shake meetings for a few weeks already :)
<BenC> dholbach: Thanks
<dholbach> Coooool :)
<BenC> Ok, thanks to everyone for coming, especially to the community members
<zul> no probs
<BenC> adios all
<abogani> BenC: thanks again
<cbx33> it was great to see BenC
<cbx33> really good idea ;)
<cbx33> and I like the community bit at the end
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<estephban> ?
<pochu> @schedule cet
<Ubugtu> Schedule for CET: 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-22
<elkbuntu> @schedule sydney
<elkbuntu> @schedual sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 23 Feb 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 08:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 26 Feb 04:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 10:00: Community Council | 28 Feb 07:00: Technical Board | 01 Mar 07:00: Edubuntu
<elkbuntu> i fail :(
* tonyyarusso passes the dunce cap, but quickly takes it back as soon as pbuilder borks on him again
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 22 Feb 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 15:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 11:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 17:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 14:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 14:00: Edubuntu
<dholbach> good morning
<highvoltage> good morning dholbach
<dholbach> hiya highvoltage
<asac> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu
<freeflying> @schedule shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 23 Feb 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 05:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 26 Feb 01:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 07:00: Community Council | 28 Feb 04:00: Technical Board | 01 Mar 04:00: Edubuntu
<mvo_> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 22 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 12:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 18:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 15:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 15:00: Edubuntu
<pitti> hi
<bdmurray> hello
<dholbach> hiya
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ogra will be able to probably attend 10-20 mins (no promises, but it seems i'm currently not urgently needed)... in case you need me for WinFOSS
<cjwatson> ogra: let's put that agenda item first then, or you can just follow up to Henrik by mail
<ogra> oki
<cjwatson> ogra: it's a straight question, so if it can be given a straight answer, mail's fine
<heno> agreed
<ogra> i'm all for including WinFOSS, but kdeedu isnt moved yet and i know LaserJock is still submitting MIRs ... apart from thyt language packas go first ...
<heno> just need to know approximately how much disk space I have to play with (or not)
<ogra> so it depends on the final free space
<ogra> what the comon need of WinFOSS ?
<ogra> *common
<heno> hm, and when do we know that?
<heno> from 15 to 100MB
<heno> depending on whether you want openoffice
<Riddell> need is giving out CDs to people who are unlikely to change operating system, edubuntu CDs tend to be more targeted than ubuntu/kubuntu CDs though
<ogra> heno, 100M *with* OO.o ?
<heno> right
<ogra> heh, i will have 100M for you then ... i was expecting 200 and upwards
<ogra> 100 is totally fine
<ogra> Riddell, we talk about the add-on CD ... which works on *all* *buntus
<heno> OK, that will compliment the other CDs well, as they don't have OOo ATM
<heno> I'll also look out for some educational stuff
<Mithrandir> pong
<ogra> heno, that'd be ubercool !
* dholbach hands ogra an ''
<heno> we can have a fixed set of OOo, Firefox and TB say, and other stuff that can optionally give way to language packs
<ogra> dholbach, thnks
<heno> it's easier to remove stuff than to create content in a hurry :)
<ogra> heno, right ... sounds fine, lets do it :)
<heno> \o/
<asac> hi all
<heno> ok, that's one item settled *before* the meeting
<heno> any others ? :)
<ogra> i dont mind dropping one or the other exotic language :) its not called the language-cd ;) but i want as many as i can on it, to give benefit to everyone without badwith
<Riddell> heno: are you going to redo the kubuntu winfoss sometime (removing scribus and kdepim)?
<ogra> *bandwith
<mdz> morning
<pitti> ogra: width :)
<pitti> hey mdz
<heno> ogra: just the be clear, the 100 MB quoted is real CD space, not livefs space
<heno> Riddell: mostly done, just need to upload
<cjwatson> ogra: is this including WinFOSS on the first or the second CD?
<ogra> pitti, bah ... can't type today :)
<ogra> cjwatson, add-on
<heno> can do that after the meeting <- Riddell
<cjwatson> ogra: ok, small cdimage change probably required for that, let me know
<ogra> cjwatson, ok, will do ...
<Riddell> heno: cool
<iwj> Oops, wrong server.
<mdz> ok, let's get started
<mdz> everyone here?
* mvo_ waves
<asac> me :)
<_kyle> ack.
<tkamppeter> hi
* dholbach too
* seb128 as well
<rtg> ack
<cjwatson> here
* pitti waves
* Mithrandir jumps up and down
<bdmurray> here
<pkl_> here
<heno> here
* highvoltage is here but just to listen
<mdz> seb128,doko,BenC,kwwii: ping
<pitti> * seb128 as well
<BenC> mdz: pwong
<seb128> mdz: he, I replied just after dholbach :p
<dholbach> do we know about sfllaw?
<seb128> s/he/heh
<mdz> seb128: yes, and I missed it due to an xchat bug!
<seb128> iz GTK bog? :p
<BenC> mdz: Is that the one where it makes random lines invisible?
<doko> pong
<mdz> dholbach: sfllaw is not in attendance today
<mdz> BenC: in this case it omitted the '*'
<mdz> cjwatson: heard from Ken?
<dholbach> i talked to him today and pinged him
<cjwatson> I see dholbach has beaten me to it
<cjwatson> he was active on #ubuntu-devel not that long ago
<dholbach> excusez-moi :)
<mdz> seb128: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/temp/Screenshot-FreeNode:%20%23ubuntu-meeting.png
<mdz> seb128: when there are multiple /me's in succession, it omits the '*' from the succeeding ones
<seb128> mdz: right, it does that here as well
<mdz> so when I scan for people I miss them
<mdz> ok, let's get started
<mdz> agenda is:
<mdz> (pitti) compiz in main or universe, and integration into live system
<seb128> that's probably the "don't repeat the name when several line come from the same person" which gets confused
<mdz> (pitti) packaging of beryl, get it into universe
<mdz> (heno) Does Edubuntu need WinFOSS?
<mdz> (mvo) More people in the SRU verification-needed -> verification-done team? (the step after a fix was uploaded to -proposed, but before it can go to -updates).
<mdz> (bdmurray) How to deal with beryl bugs
<mdz> (bdmurray) Bug 83726 and similars - power saving mode in Live CD
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 83726 in xorg "[feisty]  X Display in Power-Saving mode on Startup, LiveCD only" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/83726
<mdz> any changes, additions or deletions?
<mdz> seb128: yes
<highvoltage> hehe. mdz is in #ubuntu-women
<heno> the edubuntu winfoss question has been answered
<ogra> right ...
<heno> (with as yes)
<mdz> ok, will delete
<heno> *a
<mdz> pitti: your floor then
<pitti> so, as I wrote on distro-team, I'm not really happy with the state of compiz in main
<pitti> with my QA/MIR hat on
<pitti> so I talked to sabdfl about our goals for feisty
<seb128> I talked with pitti about it and I think even if compiz has bug we should get it on the CD, because many users look for the cool effect and we should make easy for them to get it
<pitti> as you saw on the IRC quote, he would even be fine with having beryl/compiz in universe
<pitti> right
<BenC> I can confirm that compiz in feisty is very unstable, even compared to compiz-freedesktop(gandalfn) from edgy
<seb128> those users are rather likely to go to some other distro if we don't make that easy
<mdz> seb128: yes, in fact that was a requirement from sabdfl
<pitti> so I see two options:
<pitti> we put it in main and on the CD and live with the brokenness
<mdz> pitti: he may have said that, but he contradicted himself in doing so, probably without knowing
<seb128> BenC: weird, the package from feisty is made by gandalfn
<pitti> or we leave it in universe and change desktop-effects to install it if people want to enable it
<BenC> it's broken for me, whereas his packages on my edgy box are very stable
<seb128> and the new version is not known to unstable
<mdz> he doesn't realize that it needs to be in main in order to be activated on the live CD
<BenC> cube breaks workspaces
<BenC> windows go missing
<seb128> BenC: do you have an ATI card?
<pitti> so I'd like to know what we should do
<BenC> Intel 945
<seb128> speaking about compiz packaging
<seb128> I just merge sync 0.3.6 with Debian today
<seb128> and synced compiz-extra from there
<mdz> pitti: it's important that users be able to switch it on in the default install and on the live CD
<mdz> it doesn't have to be bug-free
<pitti> mdz: alright, so this question is settled then
<seb128> there is a gnome-compiz-manager to source NEW which is guy to configure compiz, I would appreciate some review help on it, it ships some xfree source files and there is probably cleanup required
<mdz> pitti: we can display a warning that it's experimental software
<BenC> seb128: I use that a lot
<pitti> mdz: it's not really a question of 'bug free', but rather 'is it usable at all', so I'd really add a disclaimer somewhere
<mdz> in fact I think desktop-effects already may
<mdz> many people are using it on Ubuntu anyway, so it is usable for some
<pitti> there's no disclaimer yet, but at least it has a nice handling of 'do you wnat to keep these settings'
<mdz> I believe Mithrandir is using it
<kwwii> sorry for being late
<Mithrandir> mdz: I was for a while, then got bored of not having enough workspaces and switched back to openbox.
<seb128> pitti: it works fine with intel cards
<pitti> mdz: right, intel cards are basically the only platform where it works
<seb128> for ATI users we need "Option "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" "true"", does anybody knows if we could add that option by default to xorg.conf or if that's a bad idea?
<pitti> seb128: I experimented with that and it seriously degraded performance, as well as introducing strange screen effects
<seb128> and EXA?
<mdz> seb128: I don't, but I can tell you who can answer that question (email me)
<seb128> mdz: ok, will do
<pitti> seb128: also, this should go into the non-free driver configuration tool that Keybuk wrote
<seb128> pitti: well, the option is for the free driver
<seb128> fglrx doesn't work for compiz
<pitti> seb128: ah, right
<pitti> seb128: well, but you can forget the free driver anyway, it's unusably slow
<seb128> it's not for me
<pitti> alright, but no need to reiterate
<seb128> I use the radeon driver and it works really fine on my desktop
<ogra> i'd like to point out that i'd lik to have a possibility to disable these options if we write them to xorg.conf
<pitti> I'm fine with mdz's word
<mdz> ok
<mdz> nsext
<mdz> (pitti) packaging of beryl, get it into universe
<doko> seb128: the FireGL ATI cards don't support it at all
<ogra> ltsp already had some probs were flash stopped working on certain cards because of the AIGLX stuff which you can only disable through hacking xorg.conf ...
<pitti> right, someone needs to do that
<seb128> beryl has been packaged
<pitti> do we have anyone who is interested?
<ogra> which is no option in ltsp, it needs to be preseedable
<seb128> and rejected for license problems
<pitti> right, the compiler stuff needs to be sorted out
<seb128> upstream is going to fix them for 0.2
<Mithrandir> as well as the pixmaps.
<cjwatson> pixmaps we could tolerate
<doko> does it use icc?
<Mithrandir> doko: no.
<mdz> seb128: when is 0.2?
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: they're technically just large char * structs in a C file.  I'm not sure that's ok, wrt GPL.
<Mithrandir> (it's almost certainly not the preferred form of modification)
<seb128> mdz: no idea, I've read some mails but I don't follow beryl, I work on the compiz packages and that's enough for me
<seb128> (and beryl is an evil fork)
<cjwatson> ok, if it's linked in then that could be problematic
<cjwatson> although I think that particular interpretation is probably excessively strict, given that the PFoM is probably an image file and pixmaps basically are that
<mdz> I don't think it's necessary to provide both compiz and beryl
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: there's no way to load it into an image editor.  It's not an xpm.
<iwj> You mean xpm's ?  That's just a compilable image format.
<iwj> Mithrandir: Oh, that's silly.
* ogra has to leave the room ....
<mdz> we will only put one of them in the default install, and there it seems compiz is a better choice
* ogra waves
* _kyle blinks.
<Mithrandir> iwj: you can't load xpms into opengl textures without some kind of converter, and it's an opengl texture.
<mdz> for beryl we should accept it into universe
<cjwatson> it's probably a silly image format, but surely the translation is absolutely trivial?
<Mithrandir> mdz: but wait for somebody to package it, or have somebody package it?
<cjwatson> I sort of see your point, it just doesn't seem all that interesting
<mdz> Mithrandir: it's already packaged aiui
<mdz> there are packages out there
<pitti> so why cant' we put them into multiverse for now?
<Mithrandir> pitti: because it's undistributable.  Sourceless GPL-ed files.
<pitti> doesn't make much of a difference even for desktop-effects integration (should we do that)
<pitti> Mithrandir: ah, right
<Mithrandir> "This file is autogenerated from $file; This file is under the GPL" ; no sign of $file.
<pitti> ok, so let's just ditch it for now
<Mithrandir> oh, and it'd have to go to multiverse anyway, because there is no free compiler for the shaders.
<mdz> ok, we don't believe it to be redistributable now, so we can't include it yet
<siretart> there are beryl packages sitting in debian/NEW atm
<mdz> but someone should monitor that situation and ensure that it gets into universe when it's fixed
<cjwatson> monitor> and push if necessary
<mdz> siretart: since you're watching it, would you be willing to see that it gets into universe as well?
<gnomefreak> beryls already in universe only thing that isnt in feisty is beryl-core
<pitti> gnomefreak: only beryl-manager
<gnomefreak> oh
<gnomefreak> ah thought i saw more
<pitti> and it's not "really" there because it's uninstallable
<pitti> ok, I don't think we need further discussion right now
<siretart> mdz: I'll monitor the situation in debian and arrange things (syncs, etc) as soon as they're ready over there
<mdz> siretart: great, thank you
<Mithrandir> siretart: please keep me up-to-date on what's going on too, please?
<mdz> (mvo) More people in the SRU verification-needed -> verification-done team? (the step after a fix was uploaded to -proposed, but before it can go to -updates).
<mvo> it seems that currently only simon is doing this verification. if he is sick or on vacation then the process is stuck. I would like to suggest bdmurray as a backup (if he agrees of course)
<siretart> no idea how long it'll take, though. the new queue seems to be growing lately, and I'll probably not be able to work actively on beryl packaging.
<siretart> Mithrandir: will do
<mdz> mvo: why yes, I think we do need help there; thank you for volunteering! ;-)
<dholbach>  /query mvo
<pitti> http://tinyurl.com/2yx8aj, btw
<mdz> mvo: bdmurray is occupied at the moment
<pitti> i. e. lots of stuff pending ATM
<cjwatson> I already asked bdmurray about this and he preferred not to for the moment
<mdz> yes, simon has dropped the ball on this and we need someone else to pick it up
<bdmurray> I think I might be able to now
<mvo> mdz: I'm ok with doing it as long as I'm not the only one in charge
<mdz> it's also important that we do SRUs *only* for serious bugs
<pitti> right
<pitti> unfortunately edgy has many of those :(
<mvo> but that filtering happend before the verfication-needed -> done step
<pitti> however, the list is not as bad as it seems, some of them affect universe which have their own team
<cjwatson> mvo: we haven't been as strict in the past
<mvo> I wouldn't want to do my own SRUs for example
<mdz> mvo: it would be good if you could help with it, since you (alone?) are able to verify that the upgrade test succeeded
<mdz> which should be a prerequisite for any other verification
<mvo> mdz: as I said, I'm fine iwth it. its just that I do not want to verify my own SRUs. I mean, I did that before the upload already :)
<mdz> mvo: perhaps bdmurray would be your backup for the ones you produce yourself
<mvo> mdz: sounds good
<mdz> bdmurray,cjwatson: ?
<mvo> mdz: scott (as my manager) may need to agree too
<bdmurray> mdz: that works for me
<pitti> mdz: if Simon is officially not doing them any more, do you want me to update the process on the wiki page?
<cjwatson> I'm ok with that if Brian's happy
<cjwatson> yes, Simon is officially not doing them any more
<mvo> pitti: I will follow your example and do SRU days
<mdz> pitti: yes, it should use a team instead
<pitti> we can probably just eliminate that step (mailing Simon), looking by tags does fine
<mdz> mvo: please review this proposal with Scott when he is well and confirm
<mvo> mdz: I will. thanks
<mdz> pitti: sure, if that works for mvo and brian, that's fine
<pitti> ACTION: mvo and pitti to discuss new SRU process, update wiki
<pitti> ^ and brian
<mdz> ok, sounds good
<mdz> (bdmurray) How to deal with beryl bugs
<mdz> bdmurray: ->same as for other universe bugs :-)
<pitti> mdz: but its not in universe
<mdz> pitti: but it will be
<mdz> is the problem that beryl bugs are being filed in launchpad before the package is there?
<cjwatson> ok, bugs on software not in the archive should be rejected
<mdz> agreed
<pitti> bdmurray: they are assigned to random packages ATM?
<cjwatson> i.e. stuff we don'tt ship
<mdz> I thought this was about the future
<bdmurray> pitti: some end up w/o no package at all
<cjwatson> AFAIK it's about bugs that are there right now
<cjwatson> when Brian last asked me about this I hadn't realised that beryl-manager wasn't the whole thing
<mdz> as Colin says, bugs for software not in the archive have to be rejected
<bdmurray> there seem to be packages in lp for beryl-core and beryl-manager
<mdz> it's a bit awkward in this case because we *want* it in the archive, but nonetheless we have to wait.  we can't even ask whether they're using the proper version when we don't provide one yet
<cjwatson> bdmurray: since that isn't all of beryl, we need to find out from the submitter where their beryl packages come from
<bdmurray> so accept beryl-manager bugs, we said it is in the archive earlier, but not beryl-core bugs?
<seb128> I'm rejected beryl bugs quite often with a comment saying to contact people shipping the packages they are using
<cjwatson> if it's regarding those pieces of beryl that we ship, then we shouldn't reject the bugs, but otherwise they have to go
<pitti> since beryl-manager is uninstallable ATM anyway, should we just remove the binaries for now maybe?
<pitti> and re-add them when it actually becomes useful?
<seb128> looks like a good idea
<mdz> bdmurray: assuming they're using our packages, yes
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Feb 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<mdz> bdmurray: but that seems unlikely given that it isn't installable :-)
<bdmurray> okay, so we'll point them at the beryl project bug tracker and reject them then.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> (bdmurray) Bug 83726 and similars - power saving mode in Live CD
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 83726 in xorg "[feisty]  X Display in Power-Saving mode on Startup, LiveCD only" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/83726
<bdmurray> I've seen quite a few bugs similar to that and wanted to know if anyone had any ideas about it.
<mdz> bdmurray: do I understand correctly that the problem is only when booting the live CD?  booting the installed system with the same packages works fine?
<mdz> if that's not clear, we should confirm that
<bdmurray> mdz: checking, I think I read someone had the problem after install too
<bdmurray> 85930 indicats it happening after install
<bdmurray> 86592 has a possible resolution
<mdz> bdmurray: do you know when the problem began? is it a regression in feisty?  in a particular milestone?
<mdz> bug 86592
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 86592 in xorg "Live CD Installer causes screen to turn off when X starts" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86592
<bdmurray> I see someone indicating it happened for them on Herd 3
<bdmurray> I don't recall seeing it for Herd 2
<mdz> bdmurray: if it's a regression, the best approach is to find out where it regressed. that will help isolate the bug
<bdmurray> mdz: okay
<mdz> bdmurray: I /msg'd you an upstream contact who might be able to help
<mdz> bdmurray: does this give you enough to move forward with the bug?
<bdmurray> mdz: yes, I believe so
<mdz> bdmurray: thanks for bringing it up.  I think reviewing outstanding serious bugs where we're stuck is a good idea for this meeting
<mdz> especially where you come upon something which is not maintained directly in Ubuntu
<mdz> that's the end of the discussion agenda
<mdz> only one outstanding action from the previous meeting: iwj to write up summary of experiences debugging udev
<mdz> iwj: ?
<iwj> I still haven't done that; I've been doing autopkgtest all this last week.
<iwj> ... which has gone well.
<Riddell> mdz: are you able to look over bug 84717 sometime and give your approval?  requested by pitti
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 84717 in update-manager "SRU: updates necessary for Kubuntu Upgrade Tool in Edgy" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84717
<mdz> Riddell: ->release team
<pitti> Riddell: heh, I had the sentence prepared as well :)
<Riddell> mdz: ok
<mdz> Mithrandir: I need for you to write/update the documentation for freeze exceptions
<Riddell> Mithrandir: ^^ :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: it's at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
<pitti> mdz: this would be an outright rejection for a normal SRU; if we do this, then I'd like an official commitment for us that we want to break SRU policy to achieve this goal
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes, it's partially blocked on getting a ubuntu-release mailing list.  I'll document the rest of it and tell people to mail me for the time being.
<mdz> ACTION: Tollef to update FreezeExceptionProcess, particularly to send requests to the release team
<heno> can community members subscribe to that (planned) list?
<mdz> iwj: is it likely that the udev documentation will get done in the next week?  iirc it was already carried over once
<iwj> mdz: Yes.
<Mithrandir> heno: that's the idea, yes.
<iwj> I didn't want to get too distracted this week since I was making good progress.
<heno> cool
<Mithrandir> heno: I see no point in keeping it secret at least.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> any other business?
<cjwatson> I think it should still be primarily a contact point for the release team rather than a discussion list, though
<heno> Mithrandir: it will be an announce-only list?
* pitti hugs Riddell for getting apport integrated into KDE
<cjwatson> based on experience from debian-release, I recommend making that clear in the charter
<mdz> I agree with cjwatson
<mdz> developer discussion stays on -devel
<mdz> -release should reach only the release team for contact purposes
<Mithrandir> heno: what Colin says; it's a contact list and not a discussion list.
<heno> so perhaps it should be moderated even for subscribers
<Mithrandir> I'll probably end up mailing various reports to it as I write the bits to generate them
<mdz> heno: no one will be subscribed to it except the release team
<Riddell> pitti: I'm feeling the love.  did you say you had updates from michael hoffman for apport-qt?
<mdz> it's just a mail expander
<heno> People might want to subscribe to be notified about the release process but not to get random contact mails
<pitti> Riddell: not new ones, they have all been merged into trunk
<pitti> Riddell: if anything still looks weird, please file bugs
<mdz> heno: only things intended for the release team only should be sent to that address
<heno> so perhaps we need a testing-announce list
<mdz> if it's of general interest, it should go elsewhere
<mdz> I've suggested that we need a list for automated checks
<pitti> Riddell: the behaviour under Gnome isn't very representative due to some bugs in the theme/gtk-qt bridge stuff
<mdz> we have several sources of automated checks alerady
<Mithrandir> should we take the list discussion after the meeting?  I don't see it being useful for the whole team?
<heno> right
<cjwatson> agreed
<mdz> michael's upgrade tester, ian's package tester, the installation testing done in montreal
<mdz> they should all go to one place which anyone can monitor
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok
<mdz> last call for other business
<mdz> ok, adjourned
<mdz> thanks, all
<seb128> thank you
<dholbach> thanks
<mdz> cjwatson: would you post the action items?
<pitti> thanks guys
<asac> thanks
<BenC> thanks!
<bdmurray> thanks
<cjwatson> mdz: yes
<cjwatson> only three this week
<mvo> thanks
<Toadstool> @schedule Los_Angeles
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Feb 02:00: MOTU Council | 24 Feb 13:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 09:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 15:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 12:00: Technical Board
<fernando> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Feb 07:00: MOTU Council | 24 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 14:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 17:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Feb 10:00 UTC: MOTU Council | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00 UTC: Accessibility Team
<brottman> isn't there supposed to be a dev team meeting today?
<gnomefreak> already happened
<gnomefreak> 3 hours ago or so
<brottman> thanks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-23
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: MOTU Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00 UTC: Accessibility Team
<gpocentek> hello
<ajmitch> hi
<crimsun> 'lo
* ajmitch hopes sistpoty wakes up in time
<dholbach> hello :)
<ajmitch> everyone can look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meetings while we wait :)
<dholbach> we'd have quorum :)
<ajmitch> sistpoty went to bed about 5 hours ago, saying he'd try & be here :)
<dholbach> ok, while we wait for sistpoty to run us through his items on the agenda... why doesn't one of us present the things we decided or looked at together until now.
<ajmitch> aha!
<ajmitch> welcome, sistpoty
<dholbach> hello sistpoty
<sistpoty> hi
<gpocentek> hi sistpoty
<dholbach> sistpoty: I was just saying: ok, while we wait for sistpoty to run us through his items on the agenda... why doesn't one of us present the things we decided or looked at together until now. :-)
* sistpoty needs coffee
<sistpoty> hehe
<dholbach> Ok... as some  of you might have gathered from lists or specs already: we decoupled the MOTU membership process from meetings completely.
<ajmitch> so we've agreed so far on quorum (3), public list, what else?
<ajmitch> yay
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Hopeful/Recruitment describes the process for that
<dholbach> it will all happen on a public mailing list, called motu-council@lists.ubuntu.com (which is not created yet, but I'm pestering the sysadmins)
<ajmitch> ok, thanks
<dholbach> we further thought that there should be no incentive in subscribing to yet another mailing list. We'll try to keep only applications and administrative discussions on motu-council@ but do everything else on ubuntu-motu@
<dholbach> so it's up to you if you subscribe or not - you're not likely to miss anything
<ajmitch> another list will just be a drop in the bucket
<crimsun> right, I think that's a good idea (maintains the "one-stop" MOTU feel and transparency)
<dholbach> Probably, but it's nice to have MOTU discussions in one place.
<dholbach> The MOTU Council was formed to have a body that is capable of making decisions, we thought that with five members in the team, a quorum of 3, a simple majority and a timeout of 48h would make sense.
<ajmitch> less bureaucracy is good
<dholbach> We documented that on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meetings already
<ajmitch> the timeout avoids waiting arounf for consensus or reply from everyone
<dholbach> Are there any questions up until now?
<ajmitch> s/arounf/around/
<crimsun> no questions from me.
<sistpoty> nope
<gpocentek> ok for me
<dholbach> Ok super - why don't we kick off the meeting? :)
<dholbach> new packages policy for MOTUs (sistpoty, as deferred from MOTU-Meeting)
<sistpoty> is someone doing the minutes?
<crimsun> I'll do minutes.
<sistpoty> cool thanks crimsun
<dholbach> we should get the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam involved :)
<sistpoty> :)
<dholbach> sistpoty: your floor
<sistpoty> ok, new packages policy: we've discussed this on the motu meeting already... so I'll just give a short sum up
<sistpoty> currently motu's need to go through revu and need 2 reviews for a new package
<sistpoty> I think it would be better to drop that requirement and just make it a recommendation instead
<dholbach> What about NEW packages from MOTU Hopefuls?
<ajmitch> keep the 2 ACKs on REVU for them
<dholbach> Wasn't the proposal to make it 1 successful review?
<dholbach> Oh ok.
<ajmitch> do you think that dropping it to 1 would be good?
<gpocentek> I'd prefer to keep the 2 acks
<dholbach> I think I remember people discussing it.
<gpocentek> I often miss something when I review
<crimsun> I agree w/ keeping the 2 ACKs for new source packages from non-ubuntu-dev members.
<sistpoty> iirc we discussed this on motu-ml, and quite a few ppl. didn't like to get down on 1 vote
<ajmitch> saying that MOTUs don't need to go through REVU is probably just acknowledging what already happens
<dholbach> Ok, fine with me.
* ajmitch has uploaded a few packages without getting reviews
<sistpoty> other opinions?
<dholbach> Me too... it was often part of my job to get things done - or I just asked seb128 to give it a quick review.
<gpocentek> same for me (for xubuntu packages)
<dholbach> I personally think that new MOTUs will often be happy enough to still get a review.
<Amaranth> i thought the whole point of being a MOTU was not having to go through the review process :)
<ajmitch> Amaranth: it is, but for people who are newly made MOTUs, they can still benefit from reviewing
<sistpoty> as I brought up the proposal, +1 from me
<ajmitch> eg I don't think I'd expect a new MOTU to go & package up FDS without getting some help ;)
<ajmitch> +1 from here
<sistpoty> ok, great... let's move on then ;)
<crimsun> +1 for dropping the 2 ACK requirement for new source packages for ubuntu-dev members
<dholbach> +1 from me also
<gpocentek> and +1 from me
<dholbach> nice... consensus on the first MOTU Council decision
<ajmitch> alright, exceptions for new packages during feature freeze..
<ajmitch> :)
* dholbach brings on the champagne
<sistpoty> :)
<dholbach> What was the Universe FF intended to be in the first place?
<ajmitch> no new packages
<ajmitch> there are people who have packages 'almost done' on revu that don't want to miss out
<ajmitch> & then there's packages like glassfish & beryl which are being pushed by others
<dholbach> Ok. In past releases the Technical Board was of the opinion that NEW packages were seldom of any harm, since they couldn't break existing functionality.
<ajmitch> the intent of universe FF was that we have time to focus on bugfixing, rather than packaging & reviewing
<sistpoty> well, it takes resources to review them, which were spent better with qa
<dholbach> I think that it should be responsibility of the motu-uvf team to ack such requests (if we'd allow them in), which requirements should they ask for?
<dholbach> I think it's pretty hard to draw a line there.
<ajmitch> how's the motu-uvf team going with requests?
<cjwatson> I'd recommend simple-to-review and high-importance as starting points for metrics, personally
<dholbach> We're on top of things.
<cjwatson> if you're making exceptions they need to be worthwhile ...
<ajmitch> hi cjwatson
<cjwatson> hi
<cjwatson> practice in main is to be pretty liberal near the start of a given freeze and gradually tighten up
<ajmitch> true, I've got some packages here that are worthwhile, but they wouldn't be easy to review
<dholbach> Ok, so the proposal is "after 2 ACKs on REVU, the uvf team checks if the NEW package is worthwhile or not."?
<crimsun> I'd like to request that we consider FF exception requests up until beta freeze (~Mar 15). I know of Ardour2, at least, which is going through a fairly lengthy beta 11.1 -> beta 12 -> RC testing period.
<ajmitch> so a 3 week final window for new packages with some scrutiny?
<dholbach> Although it'll mean more work for the uvf team (and me), I can see the point in the request.
<ajmitch> dholbach: 'worthwhile' is fairly subjective, I hope it doesn't just end up pushing out FF by 3 weeks
<dholbach> ajmitch: I know it is... if you can propose different requirements....?
<sistpoty> I guess the first thing would be that the package has already been given two acks (in case it's from a hopeful)
<sistpoty> not that ppl. will come and want a review alongside with an FF exception from motu-uvf
<dholbach> Yeah - we definitely should make that clear.
<ajmitch> the uvf team shouldn't need to look at the packaging itself
<dholbach> Are there objections regarding that "worthwhile" might be too subjective?
<sistpoty> fine with me
<dholbach> (I personally think that it can be a problem in every approval process.)
<ajmitch> no, I think we can leave it up to the uvf team to decie
<ajmitch> s/decie/decide/
<sistpoty> uvf-team will certainly find a way ;)
<crimsun> right, I concur with delegating that to motu-uvf
<gpocentek> fine with me as well
<sistpoty> +1 here
<dholbach> Ok, let's cast our votes for "Until Beta Freeze the motu-uvf team will consider NEW packages after they went through successful reviews and decide if they're worthwhile to have or not."
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<crimsun> +1
<ajmitch> +1
<gpocentek> +1
<dholbach> that's a majority :)
<dholbach> deciding on a 'hard freeze' for universe in the last week of the feisty cycle (ajmitch)
<ajmitch> we did this for edgy, and very few people uploaded any fixes in the last week
<dholbach> Mithrandir: Are you there? This might require your input.
<ajmitch> this is where every universe upload needed to be ACKed
<dholbach> as the release managers want to have somebody who ACKed the upload (somebody who's responsible for Universe), we maybe should think about broadening the UVF team to have no delays, but a direct ACK or NACK
<sistpoty> yep, I remember dapper, where we crushed bugs until the final minute
<ajmitch> the uvf team is going to be busy
<cjwatson> one concern about very late uploads is that they can end up clogging up the buildds for urgent uploads to main. It's only a problem for big packages of course
<dholbach> I don't know if we have the technical requirements (in soyuz) to lock main and to leave Universe/Multiverse just open
* ajmitch remembers the fun of motu-uvf for edgy
<cjwatson> dholbach: no, although the archive team can fake that by manual work if necessary
<cjwatson> (and we generally do during freezes)
<dholbach> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<dholbach> so we'll have to play along the hard freeze - what do you think about broadening the uvf team and probably making the process less strict, like "ping on IRC, point to debdiff, get ACK and tell release managers that it's ok"?
<crimsun> I'm fine w/ expanding motu-uvf members
* ajmitch also
<sistpoty> +1 here as well
<crimsun> would it require a certain number of ACKs? unanimous?
<ajmitch> unanimous would take too much
<dholbach> I personally think that one should be enough
<ajmitch> just 1
<gpocentek>  /me agrees
<crimsun> right, I concur
<dholbach> what about keeping the hard freeze process light?
<ajmitch> so stick with the freeze, but make it easy?
<dholbach> or shall we do the file-a-bug-with-a-diffstat-and-diff--dance for that too?
<ajmitch> no need to file a bug
<gpocentek> I think IRC is fine
<sistpoty> I'd prefer the easy model
<ajmitch> since all uploads should be fixing a bug anyway
<crimsun> URL to debdiff on IRC should suffice IMO
<ajmitch> iirc crimsun attached the relevant changelog entry to bugs for edgy
<ajmitch> which was a real help when I was asked whether to ACK/NAK
<dholbach> Ok cool, I think we all agreed on that now.
<ajmitch> how many more in motu-uvf?
<ajmitch> 1 or 2?
<dholbach> we're 3 atm
<dholbach> 5 would be nice to have, I think
<crimsun> +1 for expanding motu-uvf to 5
<dholbach> +1 for 5 too
<sistpoty> +-0... I'm happy with 4 or 5 equally
<ajmitch> ok, +1 on keeping the freeze process as we said & +1 on motu-uvf to 5
<gpocentek> +1 for 5
<dholbach> anybody here who'd like to step up for the task?
<crimsun> I'm happy to join motu-uvf for this cycle
* ajmitch doesn't mind either way
<dholbach> thanks crimsun, thanks ajmitch
<dholbach> I'll add you to the team
<crimsun> ok, thanks
<ajmitch> k
<dholbach> (thanks for keeping the voting process slim this time around)
* ajmitch wants to get to bed early :)
<dholbach> welcome to the team
<dholbach> ok... "motu team cleanup"
<sistpoty> everybode read the mail?
<dholbach> the ubuntu-dev and motu teams clash a bit and references to the LP 'motu' team should be purged
<ajmitch> yep
<dholbach> imho it'd be better to have a universe-bugs team and make sure that LP sends universebugs to that team by default
<ajmitch> this also relates to the issues with lp creating people on uploads
<dholbach> (but that's not on the agenda for now)
<dholbach> ajmitch: how so?
<ajmitch> since ubuntu-motu@l.u.c is a registered address for motumedia
<ajmitch> & we wanted it as a contact address, but not bug address, for motu :)
<ajmitch> (rather impossible at the moment)
<ajmitch> but I think reducing the number of teams would be good
<dholbach> ok
<Mithrandir> dholbach: universe is your domain, as you know.  I'd recommend on concentrating on bug-fixing and not new shiny, but for package splits and such, NEW processing will obviously need to happen.
<Mithrandir> dholbach: note that the archive admins are not likely to have much time for source NEW at least in the later stages of the release.
<dholbach> Mithrandir: right... thanks
<dholbach> I'd propose to ask the LP folks to purge the 'motu' team and (in another step) get a 'universe-bugs' team and fix the bug routing that way.
<ajmitch> mdz's suggestion was to keep motu, & empty out ubuntu-dev, I think
<sistpoty> yep... ubuntu-dev would then be (only) core-dev + motu
<ajmitch> making universe-bugs would be good
<dholbach> I'm happy with that too - we'd just need to make TB the owner and un-administrator everybody, right?
<Mithrandir> dholbach: "your" as in "you lot's", not you personally, naturally. :-)
<Mithrandir> (sorry about that not being clear. ;-)
<ajmitch> but he's the face of MOTU, of course it's his :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: yep, I don't think anyone would need to be kicked out, just added
<sistpoty> and the expiry dates set
<dholbach> ok... so who's in favour of what?
<ajmitch> +1 for turning motu over to TB, and adding universe-bugs
<sistpoty> +1 here for ajmitch's proposal
<dholbach> +1 from me too - although universe-bugs needs more discussion
<gpocentek> +& for me as well
<crimsun> in terms of work required, does it require less work to keep ubuntu-dev and drop motu?
<gpocentek> +1 even
<ajmitch> crimsun: it's mainly for clarity
<ajmitch> but it would take less work to drop motu
<dholbach> maybe it's also discoverability
<crimsun> it makes more sense [to me]  to drop motu, keep ubuntu-dev, and consider universe-bugs
<dholbach> To be honest, I can live with both proposals.
<crimsun> that would prevent adding work to TB and also maintains the current structure (which seems to make sense [to me] )
<sistpoty> well, I wouldn't want that someone creates motu after we dropped it tbh. though the whole discussion seems more of an aesthetical nature to me
<sistpoty> who's in favor for dropping motu?
<sistpoty> -1 from me, though only a very weak -1
<crimsun> we should use the existing vote, I think: (+4 for purging ubuntu-dev and using motu)
* ajmitch wonders if it will affect bzr branches or not
<sistpoty> ok, anyone volunteering to do the cleanup?
<ajmitch> I don't think it should so long as the ubuntu-dev team still exists in a fashion
<sistpoty> if nobody volunteers, I'll do some clicking later today ;)
* ajmitch guesses sistpoty just volunteered :)
<sistpoty> ok
<sistpoty> let's move on, shall we?
<ajmitch> yep
<crimsun> right.
<ajmitch> I added the next item, but dholbach replied on the wiki saying it was already agreed on?
<ajmitch> aha
<ajmitch> for daniel..
<ajmitch> I added the next item, but dholbach replied on the wiki saying it was already agreed on?
<dholbach_> sorry, something grabbed my keyboard input and I couldn't type anything any more
<ajmitch> np
<dholbach_> we can go through the discussion again, but I recall a decision was made on the topic already.
<Amaranth> dholbach: running compiz? :)
<ajmitch> generally we'd know if someone was active, but what if they'd been idle for ~2 months?
<ajmitch> I guess letting them expire is fine, as long as they know how to ask to reapply
<dholbach> I propose we prod people every half a year (if they have not been sufficiently visible), and ask them. They can always re-apply.
<dholbach> (and we should keep the hurdle low.)
<dholbach> Amaranth: no
* ajmitch would hate for someone to automatically expire & noone renews their membership until they were deactivated :)
<ajmitch> will the TB get notification of upcoming expirys?
<sistpoty> I guess it might make sense to contact them first and ask if they plan to do some work in the future. maybe we can thus even reactivate lost motu's ;)
<ajmitch> yeah
<dholbach> I like that idea too.
<dholbach> and in the same mail we should point out that it's no problem to be "deactivated" for a while, as it helps us to understand where we stand, and that it's also no problem to re-apply
<gpocentek> this sounds good to me
<ajmitch> ok
<sistpoty> yep
<crimsun> +1 for daniel's proposal
<sistpoty> +1
<dholbach> nice
<dholbach> Ok, I volunteer to go through the list - who wants to assist me?
* ajmitch can
* gpocentek raise his hand
<dholbach> ajmitch now has the new responsibility of the uvf team :)
<dholbach> thanks gpocentek :)
<gpocentek> :)
<ajmitch> hehe ok
<dholbach> next meeting
<dholbach> sistpoty: did you mean the MOTU meeting or the MC meeting?
<sistpoty> MOTU meeting
<sabdfl> hi all
<dholbach> heya sabdfl
<sistpoty> hi sabdfl
<dholbach> sabdfl: we're on the last agenda point already :)
<sabdfl> just wanted to say well done and welcome aboard as a council
<ajmitch> hi sabdfl
<ajmitch> thanks
<sistpoty> thx sabdfl
<dholbach> thanks :)
<dholbach> sistpoty: shouldn't we do that on the list?
<dholbach> what about the next MC meeting - shall we try "every 2 weeks"?
<ajmitch> well, we suggested every 3 weeks for a MOTU meeting
<dholbach> ok maybe we should have a rolling rhythm - so we have a MOTU* meeting every 1,5 weeks
* gpocentek has to go
<gpocentek> I'm already late... I'll read the logs when I'm back
<ajmitch> gpocentek: ok, thanks for helping :)
<dholbach> see you gpocentek - thanks for being with us in the meeting
<sistpoty> cya gpocentek
<crimsun> thanks gauvain
<ajmitch> dholbach: sounds fair, the MotuProcessesSpec also says 3 weeks for MC
<sistpoty> fine with me
<ajmitch> I think we chose that because of a 3 week MOTU cycle
<dholbach> that'd be Tuesday 6th of March for the next MOTU meeting if I counted correctly
<ajmitch> yep
<dholbach> any time suggestions?
<dholbach> crimsun: maybe you suggest one this time :)
<ajmitch> I think if we get it regularly on the calendar, it'll help
<dholbach> I
<sistpoty> maybe with rotating times?
<crimsun> (waiting on Evolution...)
<ajmitch> sistpoty: yep :)
<dholbach> just try to decide on a time this time - we can see how it works out and then maybe decide on a rolling rhythm
<ajmitch> sistpoty: so that you can have your 2AM meeting :)
<sistpoty> hehe
<dholbach> I'm happy to mail ubuntu-motu@ and fridge-devel@, once we decided.
<Amaranth> this meeting started at 4am for me
<dholbach> Amaranth: that's why I suggested for crimsun to pick the time :)
<crimsun> how is 20:00 UTC?
<dholbach> works for me
* ajmitch can probably make that
<sistpoty> fine with me
<dholbach> alrighty.... Mar, 6th, 20:00 UTC MOTU meeting
<dholbach> thanks everybody for a very good first MOTU meeting
<dholbach> MOTU Council meeting
<ajmitch> well we still have 2 fixed items
<ajmitch> I put the todo lists in the fixed item area, and agreeing on a MC meeting time
<dholbach> Mar 16th would be 3 weeks from now on
<dholbach> shall we make that 10:00 UTC again?
<crimsun> sure
<ajmitch> fine by me, crimsun?
<crimsun> (I can manage 5 AM ok :)
<sistpoty> well... middle of the night, but ok *g*
* ajmitch wonders if crimsun actually sleeps :)
<ajmitch> hah
<ajmitch> seems that we have silent consensus, so TODO lists?
<dholbach> Ok, agreed on that. Let's add some quick suggestions to the TODO list.
<ajmitch> MOTU/TODO redirects currently
<ajmitch> we want people to be doing bugfixing, laserjock gave some good suggestions
<dholbach> we should have a separate page for that - what do you think?
<sistpoty> yep
<dholbach>  * review Universe/Multiverse bugs with patches attached (add link here)
<dholbach>  * review Debian RC fixes
<dholbach>  * look at UnmetDeps list (maybe file bugs again)
<ajmitch> ah yes
* ajmitch was going to do a mass bugfile for unmet deps
<dholbach> (* ask for rebuild test - ask for transitions that have not happened yet -> ubuntu-devel-discuss@)
<sistpoty> * packagtes that FTBFS (list from lucas)
* ajmitch adds to tomorrow's TODO
<dholbach>  * generally fix universe/multiverse bugs
<dholbach>  * tag bugs as 'bitesize' and 'packaging'
<dholbach> that's all I can think of for now
<dholbach> if you want, I'll set up that page now.
<sistpoty> that would be great dholbach
<ajmitch> thanks
<dholbach> excellent
<sistpoty> but now we're done :)
<ajmitch> excellent :)
<crimsun> thanks everyone!
<dholbach> crimsun: can you send me the minutes before you send them off? I'd like to have a MOTU/Council/Meetings... page that quickly lists our decisions
<sistpoty> thanks for the first meeting :)
* ajmitch would say it's time for a beer, but it's probably time for sleep instead
<crimsun> dholbach: already made that page
<dholbach> crimsun: that way we could add the link to the wiki page and send the mail to the TB as well and fulfil our reporting duty
<dholbach> WOW :)
* dholbach hugs crimsun
<ajmitch> maybe whoever gets to UDS can have a beer together ;)
<dholbach> thanks guys
<ajmitch> thanks daniel!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 24 Feb 15:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 11:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 17:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 14:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 12:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-24
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 24 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 19:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu
<atoponce> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 24 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 20:00: Edubuntu
<boredandblogging> is there an agenda for this meeting?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<FunnyLookinHat> see wiki page
<FunnyLookinHat> wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams
<boredandblogging> tahnks
<atoponce> who's here for the meeting?
<boredandblogging> me
* Rinchen is present.
* Zelut present
* H264 raises his hand
<atoponce> nixternal: ?
* H264 unoffically
<nixternal> yo yo
<SVLUG-Pres> I've been asked to represent the California ubuntu team.
* chuckf is here
* CgiSoft is here
<nixternal> oh meeting time
<nixternal> lol
<Zelut> Rinchen: remind me to ask you a few questions about that darter before we all disappear.
* nixternal is physically and electronically here, mentally who knows
<Rinchen> wilco
<atoponce> hold on. my wife is coming
<FunnyLookinHat> I'm here
<FunnyLookinHat> (now)
<atoponce> cool
<atoponce> well, i guess we'll get started
<atoponce> i'm going to be frank. i've just gotten out of 4 hours of meetings, thus far, so i'm getting a bit tired
<atoponce> as such, if there are no objections, i'll keep this short. 
<ktoponce> amen
<FunnyLookinHat> :)
<chuckf> if you insist
<atoponce> there are a few things to cover, though
<chuckf> :)
<Rinchen> ktoponce, welcome Mrs Bubbly. :-)
<FunnyLookinHat> Weren't we going to discuss giving me the role of being head of all North America Loco teams?
<FunnyLookinHat> I could have swore that was on the agenda....
<atoponce> Rinchen: be nice to my wife. :)
<Rinchen> atoponce, I was. :-)  Good to see her again...in a manner of speaking.
<ktoponce> Rinchen, hey!  it's good to be here
<atoponce> i'm teaching her ubuntu
<FunnyLookinHat> howdy ktoponce    : )
<atoponce> she's a good student
<atoponce> :)
<ktoponce> it is quite fascinating
<atoponce> ok. anyway...
<boredandblogging> can I suggest a topic that might be useful to LoCos starting up?
<atoponce> first on the agenda: Current progress of the project
<atoponce> boredandblogging: sure. :)
<boredandblogging> money
<atoponce> ?
<boredandblogging> people are talking about buying tshirts and stuff
<boredandblogging> are LoCos supposed to come with money to buy stuff like that?
<boredandblogging> or get sponsors?
<atoponce> as a loco, you can setup a finance account, if you want
<atoponce> you would need to come up with the resources to get the money to use for your team though
<Zelut> boredandblogging: the Utah Team has never done that. Anything has been by donation or at-your-own-cost.
<atoponce> afaik, there aren't any finacial resources from canonical or ubuntu officially
<atoponce> Zelut: exactly
<boredandblogging> ok, makes sense, is that made clear on the wiki somewhere?
<atoponce> not sure
<FunnyLookinHat> Sort of: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
<FunnyLookinHat> That provides information for Canonical providing resources to LoCos _only_ for conferences.
<CgiSoft> I think another topic that deserves some attention is the use of open source software by the government
<Rinchen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamDealingWithMoney
<Rinchen> although Mark and I never finished it
<atoponce> Rinchen: perfect. thx
<Rinchen> So please feel free to enhance it
<Zelut> there are many topics we could discuss and need discussing but I think the agenda needs to be hit first.
<atoponce> Zelut: yeah.
<boredandblogging> ok, thanks, thats all I had
<CgiSoft> personally, I don't think we should our security to a network of rouge computer programmers who work without the motivation of money (what motivates them?)
<atoponce> if no one objects, i'm going to go through the agenda as outlined on our wiki page
<nixternal> go go go
<FunnyLookinHat> atoponce, please do.
<CgiSoft> we do not know how many terrorists are part of the ubuntu project
<atoponce> CgiSoft: wait until after i get through the agenda, if you don't mind
<atoponce> current progress: how is that coming along? does anyone have any questions about the mentoring process?
<atoponce> we have the list where you can add your nme as a mentor, but there aren't any teams being mentored.... :)
<nixternal> atoponce: I will be available to mentor more starting the middle of March. Right now I am currently strapped with Feisty work prior to freezes
<atoponce> ahh
<atoponce> np
<chuckf> atoponce, I'm in the early stages of getting a MD loco team together. Who should I talk to first?
<nixternal> chuckf: talk to me if you like. I used to live in SoMD
<SVLUG-Pres> atoponce: can you please share URL of agenda wiki page? for those of us who'd like to read ahead?
<atoponce> chuckf: nixternal: perfect
<atoponce> thx
<CgiSoft> I read on the underground news outlets that the defence department is currently contracting with open source software companies to install 20,000 open source toilets in the pentagon. this may sound like a conspiracy theory, if you start seeing an outbreak of toilet seat spreaded diseases, remember you heard it first on #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams
<chuckf> nixternal, thanks
<sn9> marko: thanx for showing up
<Zelut> chuckf: make sure you check out #ubuntu-us for regular help with teams.
<nixternal> CgiSoft: please stay on-topic
<marko> hi
<atoponce> CgiSoft: please refrain until after the meet
<CgiSoft> but I have to go to work in 10 minutes
* CgiSoft works for microsoft
<nixternal> !ops
<atoponce> i would like to say that the Kentucky team is off to a great start
<CgiSoft> 4 werdz 4 u: I love this company yehaa!
<atoponce> CgiSoft: PLEASE STOP
<Joe_CoT> i'm here, sorry i'm late. i'm caught on what's been said thus far
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: cool
<Joe_CoT> the NJ loco team isn't quite off the ground yet. I emailed most of the NJ LUGs, no response except for people at njit
<atoponce> with kentucky, they have a good team built, mailing list, wiki, launchpad, forums, everything
<atoponce> they are having meetings in both irc and in person
<atoponce> so, my point is, that this mentoring project works
<atoponce> and works well
* CgiSoft thinks you need to give them more time to respond. emacs is not the fastest communication device on the planet
<atoponce> other teams that need attention: california, new jersey, washington/oregon/pnw, maryland
<atoponce> any i missed
<atoponce> ?
* Rinchen reminds CgiSoft about the Ubuntu CoC.
<nixternal> Rinchen: it is to late for that,
<marko> hi, california here... is there a sort of template or program we can get ideas from?
* CgiSoft takes the code of conduct and flushes it down an open source toilet
<atoponce> !ops
<Joe_CoT> okay then
<atoponce> if we could get ops to moderate as needed...
<tsmithe> i think ops is borken...
<Zelut> sounds like the mentoring is doing a very good job in these early stages.
<atoponce> marko: you will want to get in contact with SVLUG-Pres and sn9
<marko> yes, I am.
<atoponce> i would like to see the california team up and running soon
<sn9> he already has been
<atoponce> marko: sn9: cool
<atoponce> any progress?
<SVLUG-Pres> :-) we're all trying to figure out what needs to be done next.
<marko> ok, we'll collaborate.
<sn9> marko is mark weisler, not mark nielsen, btw
<atoponce> ok. cool. we can get you rolling in #ubuntu-us. basically, setting up the necessary online resources
<atoponce> anyone willing to mentor california?
<sn9> i sent an e-mail to mark nielsen regarding access to the mailing list archive on his server. no response yet
<Zelut> I'm not assigned to mentor anyone yet.  I can help.
<atoponce> Zelut: cool
<SVLUG-Pres> afaik we have a mailinglist migration to complete. Beyond that, I'm unsure what else need to occur.  I know I can rally support from the SVLUG membership for various bay area projects.
<atoponce> cool
<sn9> a website or such needs to be set up
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: marko: sn9: get with Zelut post meet, and he'll get you on the right track to get the team going
<marko> are there good examples of such websites?
<SVLUG-Pres> awesome!
<FunnyLookinHat> marko, see wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCreatingWebsite
<sn9> mark nielsen's todo page on the wiki has more ideas, but it's far from complete
<marko> ok, thanks...
<sn9> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam
<FunnyLookinHat> marko, under the section: decide on content
<atoponce> sweet. so it's looks like we have california and maryland mentored
<Zelut> super.
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: how is the progress of new jersey?
* nixternal has to head out before the huge winter storm hits. /me is logging and will respond if needed
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: do you need a mentor
<atoponce> nixternal: thx for stopping by
<Joe_CoT> atoponce: it's not great. I've got the resources set up, just not the people
<sn9> however, getting the word out to SoCal might be somewhat cumbersome
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: what resources do you have in place
<atoponce> ?
<FunnyLookinHat> sn9, you guys will probably want to consider finding a local leader/organizer for socal, norcal, and somewhere around SLO
<Joe_CoT> atoponce: the irc channel's up, the mailing list, i've got a subforum on ubuntuforums, the wiki page is up
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: cool. how about a domain page?
<sn9> FunnyLookinHat: that's what i thought, but marko made an interesting alternate proposal
<Joe_CoT> I recently moved hosts in a hurry, so I'm waiting for someone with dns access to change the ip for nj.ubuntu-us.org. I had a site setup, but was basically just a mirror of what was on the wiki. once i get the dns again i'm probably going to make it a redirect to the wiki page for now
<atoponce> Rinchen: would you be available to mentor nj by chance? if not, i can
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: ok. cool
<Joe_CoT> if anyone can change the dns, btw, that'd be great :)
<marko> FunnyLookinHat: we will definitely include and reach out to SoCal et al. I'm going down there next week.
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: ok. hang out in #ubunu-us, and we'll get that set
<Rinchen> atoponce, sure, glad to help.
<FunnyLookinHat> marko, very cool!
<atoponce> i think we need to talk to smurf about the dns
<atoponce> not sure though
<atoponce> Rinchen: thx man!
<sn9> marko: i was referring to what you said about svlug membership
<Joe_CoT> atoponce: his away message says he's gone for the week.
<marko> sn9: yes, that also
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: ok. we'll get it resolved
<Joe_CoT> it's not a huge deal if it takes a bit. i'm sending out the wiki page, not the website url
<atoponce> ok
<sn9> marko: tell Zelut about your idea
<atoponce> next item on the agenda: reminder of project goals
<atoponce> Rinchen: are we still on the same page that this is to be a guidance-based project, and not a government-based team?
<atoponce> there were a couple confusing emails that surfaced, and i just want to make sure that nothing has changed
<Rinchen> atoponce, for the benefit of everyone, let me add some text there...
<atoponce> sounds good
<Rinchen> My mailing list post was a reply to Jono's request for Governance. It was a suggestion, a suggestion only. :-)
<Rinchen> Zelut and I have talked a bit about.
<Rinchen> Zelut and you, atoponce, are in charge of us-teams so it's whatever you want.
<Zelut> Rinchen: I didn't ever get my reply out to you
<marko> sn9: do you mean the program, agenda, curriculum discussion?
<Rinchen> For the record, I favour a loose affiliation and not a governance group.
<atoponce> Rinchen: does jono want to see the team goverened?
<sn9> marko: and the svlug connection
<Zelut> I think, if that is the general consensus, then we already have a guidance based 'council'
<Zelut> I don't want any type of overlying leadership to the teams but a, or a few, core people as primary contacts and guides is helpful
<FunnyLookinHat> Agreed.
<Rinchen> atoponce, the last information I have from Jono indicates he wants a US Governance group.
<atoponce> hmmm
<chuckf> I think that there needs to be some sort of structure to lead the group as a whole,
<Rinchen> Zelut, +1
<Rinchen> I understand both Jono's viewpoint and Zelut's.
<atoponce> it's tough, because the guidance system, as we i think all agree, is superior to governance
<Zelut> atoponce and myself have been trying to lead, but mainly by example.. not giving orders.  I think that meets both camps needs.
<chuckf> but when you guide without leadership of some sort it can quickly devolve to chaos
<Rinchen> Since Jono has not been available as of late nor made any recent comments, I'd like to suggest that we table the governance discussion and continue on with Guidance/Mentoring as planned.
<Zelut> a few people to be seen as central contacts, and framework builders.
<atoponce> i'm ok with a council, as long as we keep US Teams a project, and not a team
<atoponce> Rinchen: sounds good
<atoponce> my wife got bored. :)
<Zelut> wonder why
<Joe_CoT> meetings will do that
<atoponce> ok. next agend item: ideas for exposure
<atoponce> how can we get the word out about US Teams?
<atoponce> this is probably the same problem that new teams face
<atoponce> how to get exposed
<marko> ...through existing LUGs is a start.
<atoponce> we want new state teams to know about the resources available
<H264> maybe provide a nice little logo for all of our websites so ppl can click on it :)
<atoponce> marko: yeah. local lugs is a great place
<Zelut> marko: contacting and working with existing lugs will be the best start, yes.
<FunnyLookinHat> I think H264 has a good idea, a little image that says something like "Member of the US LoCo Teams Project" that would link to the usteams wiki page
<atoponce> i was also thinking of maybe putting a link to the wiki in our forums signature?
<chuckf> how about computer shows/fairs/whatever you call them locally
<boredandblogging> a lot of colleges have lugs that aren't tied to city/state lugs and they should be contacted as well
<marko> ...also not to be felt as competing with local LUGs but rather reinforcing them, helping them.
<atoponce> marko: yeah
<chuckf> atoponce, but if they're in the forums, likely they know about the loco teams
<marko> yes on shows...SCALE was excellent.
<Rinchen> atoponce, re: word out - what about Ubuntu Live?  We can try the UWN if it restarts.  We can also put out a notice on the Fridge.
<Zelut> marko: exactly.  we're not making any new lugs but supporting and working with *all* the lugs to an ubuntu specific level
<Joe_CoT> chuckf: not necessarily. a lot of people are on the forums for support. it could help
<atoponce> Rinchen: perfect. didn't think about ubuntu live. my wife and i plan on being there
<Zelut> Rinchen: I would like to get as many loco members together at Ubuntu Live as we can.
<christinaeater> re: existing lugs: i may be naive, but i feel like a loco team should ideally be a component of the local lug
<atoponce> nixternal has been my (and probably everyone else's) contact for the fridge
<marko> I'm making a short _paper_ brochure on Linux and FOSS to put in places like libraries, our Computer History Museum...
<Rinchen> atoponce, if you want, contact the normal Ubuntu Live email address (failing that give me a jingle) and ask about a booth
<atoponce> Rinchen: will do
* Rinchen is also a fridge editor.
* atoponce writes that down
<atoponce> sweet
<Zelut> christinaeater: a loco team--at least my loco team--has mainly worked to improve lugs
<marko> and places where "normal" people might pick up clues about Linux, FOSS, and Ubunut.
<atoponce> but, how do you get US Teams exposure, by announcing them to local lugs?
<Zelut> another thing ubuntu-utah is doing (and this would be limited to any team with ubuntu members) is including business cards with printed CDs that offer links to the loco resources.
<marko> I want to reach out to high school principals, vice-principals, churches, who don't otherwise go looking for us.
<atoponce> for example, how do i get massachussettes, per se, involved with US Teams by using a local lug?
<marko> ...might not know about Linux but are getting tired of proprietary upgrade$
<Rinchen> FunnyLookinHat, not sure this would help much but perhaps you might consider a direct link to the us-teams project from the new Ubuntu-Rocks.org site
<Zelut> atoponce: ...?
<FunnyLookinHat> Rinchen, I was thinking of having mitch add that...  one of the reasons I pinged him  : )
<Rinchen> Good man. :-)
<FunnyLookinHat> Rinchen, I'll email him when this is done
<marko> atoponce: write a short brochure and give it to the people above, the PTA, public library foyers, etc.
<Joe_CoT> marko: those might be people that would be interested in Ubuntu, but not necessarily active enough to work on a LoCo team. the LUG route is probably the best start, if i can get a hold of them.
<atoponce> marko: but there is already a utah team
<atoponce> marko: see what i'm saying?
<Rinchen> For atoponce, Zelut, and everyone else, we're redesigning ubuntu-rocks.org presently so if there is a possibility we can help you, please contact FunnyLookinHat
<Zelut> Rinchen: what are you using for the redesign?
<atoponce> Rinchen: will do. i'll make sure my requests are a pain too. ;)
<atoponce> jk
<Zelut> atoponce: I'm not sure what you're asking
<Rinchen> Zelut, we'll talk offline on that one. Whole series of mock-ups.  FunnyLookinHat would be a good one to ping on #ubuntu-us later.
<Rinchen> (otherwise we won't get thru this meeting)
<atoponce> Zelut: i asked how to get exposure for the US Teams Project. how can announcing to my local lugs about it, get other states informed?
<chuckf> one issue about going after lugs is that they tend to be distro neutral, or at least try to be
<Zelut> atoponce: I have no idea. I wouldn't think it would.
<atoponce> Zelut: exactly
<atoponce> so, how are they benificial?
<Rinchen> Has anyone thought about contacting Joe (Zonker) or others to do a write up on Linux.com/Distrowatch/etc.
<atoponce> i would like to see exposure on a national level
<Zelut> chuckf: they do tend to be neutral but I've found many of them do use Ubuntu, and those people are the makeup of the loco
<atoponce> ubuntuforums, ubuntu live, uwn, blogging, things like that would probably have a big outreach
<H264> I would think if you maybe looked into the smaller computer shops, they might be willing to distrabute this kind of stuff, and ppl would trust them
<atoponce> Rinchen: i havent
<Rinchen> atoponce, might be good. He's here in the Denver area.  http://www.dissociatedpress.net/about-me/
<Zelut> if everyone on the planet posts about it it'll get more notice
<chuckf> digg?
<Rinchen> Zelut, very true
<atoponce> Rinchen: rock on! perfect contact
* atoponce needs a rolodex
<H264> nobody does to postes, the normal ppl goto computer shops (I would think)
<atoponce> i'm planning on posting about ubuntu-us fairly often
<Zelut> its a little offtopic for my blog but it wont hurt.
<atoponce> any other ideas? Rinchen seems to have the cat in the bag in this area
<atoponce> that might not be the best term
* atoponce sux at terms
<Zelut> I had the idea of transforming ubuntu-us.org into a teams specific planet & portal
<Joe_CoT> Zelut: +1 on that. Better than having it as a placeholder page
<chuckf> Zelut, that's a great idea
<Zelut> one-stop shop for seeing what teams are up to and finding your local team.
<FunnyLookinHat> I agree as well.
<atoponce> Zelut: +1
<Rinchen> Zelut, ubuntu-rocks can physically sponsor that. I owe the domain but FunnyLookinHat controls the content.
<Joe_CoT> Zelut: someone goes to ubuntu-us.org loco for LoCo teams near them, not a placeholder
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: yeah.
<FunnyLookinHat> I think that was the vision of ubuntu-rocks.org at one point...   but it would be better at ubuntu-us.org
<Zelut> right. it'd feed, just like the planet, from each team site & also have prominent links to each team at state.ubuntu-us.org
<atoponce> i like that idea
<atoponce> smurf controls the domain, yes?
<SVLUG-Pres> atoponce: re exposure for US teams project - we could begin a "loco lug wildfire initiative" where LUGs that support a given loco team (as SVLUG supports the CA team) would contact a half-dozen other LUGs (...anywhere?) with a scripted introduction and URLs where they can follow up and get involved.
<boredandblogging> Zelut, I'd like to help out with the ubuntu-us.org if you need help
<Joe_CoT> It'd help lugs not think I'm just some nut asking them to join a ubuntu team :D
<H264> well, I don't think Linux, or lots of others will get very far if not provided some way (even flyers I think would work) to the local computer shops
<Zelut> boredandblogging: great. we'll just need access to the domain and we'll get it going.
<H264> but that's just my thoughs
<Rinchen> ubuntu-rocks is mine but is for the benefit of Colorado (and other Teams).
<Zelut> I've setup a few planets so it should be juick
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: good idea
<Zelut> *quick
<atoponce> cool
<atoponce> i think that'll be big
<Zelut> well if we can get access to it I'm all over it
<atoponce> ok. a couple more things, and we'll end
<boredandblogging> Zelut, cool, let me know how I can help.
<atoponce> are there any states being represented here that would like to start a loco that we haven't gone over?
<Rinchen> Zelut, with FunnyLookinHat's permission you can have a full shell
<FunnyLookinHat> Permission granted.
<Zelut> Rinchen: to ubuntu-us.org or ubuntu-rocks?
<FunnyLookinHat> ubuntu-rocks
<Rinchen> ubuntu-rocks has 256 gig of space available and 2 terabytes of monthly bandwidth
<Zelut> do we want to build it there or at ubuntu-us?
<Rinchen> Zelut, ubuntu-rocks.  For ubuntu-us.org that would be Smurf.
<H264> how much does that cost?
<FunnyLookinHat> I would strongly suggest trying to host whatever it is you decide to on official ubuntu provided server space...  We can link ubuntu-us to it then
<dthacker> greetings from NebraskaTeam
<atoponce> boredandblogging: what state are you in?
<Rinchen> My official guidance is to contact smurf for ubuntu-us.org but failing any services, ubuntu-rocks.org is open for you to use (again deferring to FLH)
<FunnyLookinHat> That is what I am pushing for the revamped colorado team page as well.
<atoponce> dthacker: welcome
<SVLUG-Pres> re: "wildfire initiative" - I often have SVLUG volunteers asking  "how can I help out?"  ...and that'd be a great project for many of them.
<boredandblogging> atoponce, Georgia
<atoponce> boredandblogging: need any help getting the team up and running?
<Zelut> Rinchen: ok. we'll try smurf and pending that build it on ubuntu-rocks
<atoponce> i want to make sure that everyone who came looking for help will get it
<boredandblogging> atoponce, we've got our online presence going, working on getting the word out
<atoponce> dthacker: how's nebraska going?
<Rinchen> Zelut, if you want to prototype, I can setup a full sub-dir for you to play with on rocks
<atoponce> boredandblogging: cool.
<ryanakca> eeeks... 61s lag
<Zelut> Rinchen: ok. we can discuss in #ubuntu-us
* Rinchen would like to see Nix's map on the US-Teams site.
<dthacker> Nebraska is building at about 2 people a month.
<atoponce> dthacker: cool. need any help?
<atoponce> dthacker: have all your resources in place, and just looking to get members?
<dthacker> I can't remember how to give myself +o on #ubuntu-nebraska to fix the topic and such.
<atoponce> /msg chanserv op #ubuntu-nebraska dthacker
<atoponce> don't forget '/msg chanserv help'
<atoponce> it's a great resource
<dthacker> We have mailing list, wiki pages, and irc.  Forums seem un-needed for such a small group
<atoponce> anyone else need help with their loco, before we close?
<atoponce> dthacker: how many in the team currently?
<Zelut> dthacker: forums can be put together on ubuntuforums.
<dthacker> 8
<atoponce> active?
<dthacker> 4
<SVLUG-Pres> boredandblogging asked early on about money.  I have some feedback on that.
<atoponce> dthacker: that's not too bad, actually
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: one sec. i'll open it to the floor here in a sec
<dthacker> I'm doing 2 presentations at local high schools next month.  We should pick up a few more
<atoponce> sweet
<atoponce> dthacker: ok. meet us in #ubuntu-us, and we'll see what we can do to increase those numbers
<SVLUG-Pres> SVLUG is currently courting a "project sponsor" - a company to pay for our projects - and the Ubuntu CA loco team project would be one of those projects.  That way the money's all from their pockets to the pockets of the volunteers who spent their own cash to help.
<Rinchen> atoponce, remaining agenda items?
<atoponce> everyone: if mentoring, don't forget to add your name to the wiki
<dthacker> cool, thanks.  I've just been asked to jump a dead battery, see you all soon.
<SVLUG-Pres> ah, sorry I should read before hitting "enter"
<atoponce> Rinchen: that's it. peanut gallery time
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: np
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: so there will be a sponsor for the ca team?
<SVLUG-Pres> not directly.
<SVLUG-Pres> The company would be an SVLUG sponsor - written up on our website prominently as a "Projects Sponsor".
<atoponce> i see
<SVLUG-Pres> They'd commit say 10K/year to whatever projects SVLUG wanted to do.
<atoponce> nice. and svlug would be setting up the ca team?
<SVLUG-Pres> ...and the CA loco team would be one of those.
<atoponce> gotcha
* Zelut imagines what a loco could do with that kind of funding :)
<atoponce> Zelut: no kidding
<boredandblogging> 10K? wow
<atoponce> :)
<SVLUG-Pres> Well... "setting up" infers we'd be in charge.  We're just a bunch of helpers.
<SVLUG-Pres> ...and 10K goes FAST here in the SF bay area.
<Zelut> we've gone a year now with $0 funds and still running strong.
<chuckf> are sponsor conflicts a big concern?
<atoponce> Zelut: we should look into funding. then we could buy shirts and stuff
<Rinchen> Reminder there is a full LoCo meeting tomorrow. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
<atoponce> Rinchen: thx for that
<atoponce> i wanted to nemind, but forgot. :)
<Joe_CoT> gotcha
<FunnyLookinHat> Rinchen, crud....   at 10 AM MST right?
<SVLUG-Pres> SVLUG itself has no treasury - don't get me wrong - we run on fumes.  But there are SO many things we could do that we DONT do, because of lack of funds.  The "Projects Sponsor" initiative is trying to fix that.
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: i like the idea. being a lug prez myself, i might talk to you later about that
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: have a jabber account?
<atoponce> or gmail?
<SVLUG-Pres> Also - I got VERY lucky - the company I'm courting to be the projects sponsor is a placement firm, so there's no conflict of interest _anywhere_.
<Zelut> atoponce: you can't use funds to pay for attendance :)
<Rinchen> FunnyLookinHat, 10am MST yes.
<FunnyLookinHat> kk.
<Rinchen> @schedule denver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Denver: Current meeting: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 10:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 16:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 13:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 11:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu
<SVLUG-Pres> gmail:  reiber@gmail.com
<Joe_CoT> Is there anything else on the agenda? I'm going to need to head out pretty soon
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: aaron@aarontoponce.org
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: nope. we're done
<Rinchen> atoponce, one request...
<atoponce> Rinchen: yeah
<Rinchen> atoponce, Are you posting abbreviated minutes and action items somewhere?
<Joe_CoT> alright, I'll tty guys in #ubuntu-us later then. good meeting
<atoponce> yeah. currently on ubuntu-utah.org site with a link to it on the wiki
<Rinchen> It would be helpful to go over the action items during each US meeting
<atoponce> agreed
<Zelut> so are we on for next month or sooner?
<SVLUG-Pres> THANK YOU guys... looks like the Ubuntu CA team now has a mentor! Woo Hoo!
<atoponce> oh yeah. forgot about that too
<atoponce> SVLUG-Pres: np. hope to see the team succeed
<atoponce> saturday seems to work well, so we'll keep it there
<atoponce> either the 24 or 31
<atoponce> ?
<marko> Regarding money, I think one of the best things that has helped Ubuntu is the abundance of handsome and "official looking" CDs so when we give them away they look professional and people don't suspect we are giving them some homebrew distro.
<atoponce> and how is this time for everyone: 21:00 utc
<atoponce> marko: yup
<Zelut> 31st is good I think. last sat monthly?
<chuckf> 24 would be better for me, and 21 is ok
<atoponce> i'm good with either
* H264 does not care
<Vorian> sorry I'm late
<atoponce> Vorian: np. you just missed it. :)
<FunnyLookinHat> atoponce, Zelut , just pick one or the other and we'll adjust our schedules accordingly  : )
<Zelut> 31
<atoponce> sounds goot
<atoponce> *good
<atoponce> 21:00 UTC works great for me
<Zelut> its a plan
* atoponce updates the wiki
<Zelut> see everyone here next month and those assigned mentors today please visit #ubuntu-us
<H264> great :)
<sn9> is this an adjournment?
<chuckf> thanks for the time during the meeting all
<atoponce> sn9: yessir
<sn9> ok
<atoponce> crap!
<atoponce> lost the minutes
<atoponce> nixternal: if you could get the minutes for me, that'd be great
<atoponce> or Rinchen|afk or Vorian
<atoponce> anyone that still has the meeting on screen
<atoponce> wait. ubuntulog is in the channel
<chuckf> sorry, I don't have logging on
<atoponce> chuckf: can you copy paste into a text editor?
<chuckf> I've only got the last bit
<atoponce> hmm
<chuckf> in xchat
<atoponce> i'll get on ubuntulog tomorrow
<atoponce> should have everything
<chuckf> okay
<chuckf> sn9 might have it
<Rinchen> atoponce, I have them plus they will be posted on line
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-25
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 19:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 23:00: Xubuntu
<atoponce> @schedule denver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Denver: 25 Feb 10:00: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 16:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 13:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 11:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 15:00: Xubuntu
<phanatic> @schedule Budapest
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Budapest: 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team | 27 Feb 00:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 19:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 23:00: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: LoCo Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<Rinchen> Greetings
<JoeyStanford> LoCo Meeting Check-in.  Who's awake? :-)
* ausimage opens eyes and yawns  
<atoponce> *yawn*
<FunnyLookinHat> sorry, here now
<JoeyStanford> ausimage, don't tell me you're awake at 4am? :-)
<ausimage> it is EST here
<JoeyStanford> Excellent.
<ausimage> I usually do not rise till after 2pm
<JoeyStanford> FunnyLookinHat and atoponce ....I know the feeling. Working on my 3rd cup of coffee.
<JoeyStanford> You and elkbuntu would get along great. :-)
<FunnyLookinHat> JoeyStanford, well at least the agenda is short for you then   : )
<atoponce> meh. i'm a morning person. i've been up since 6am
<atoponce> :)
<JoeyStanford> Yes, short agenda for today's LoCo meeting.    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
<JoeyStanford> ===================> Gratuitous LoCo Start Banner <=============================
<FunnyLookinHat> JoeyStanford just likes to spam.
<JoeyStanford> ping nixternal dinda elkbuntu
<FunnyLookinHat> ahh, let her sleep
* elkbuntu grumbles something sleepily
<FunnyLookinHat> oh my!
<elkbuntu> FunnyLookinHat, i set my alarm just for this :-/
<FunnyLookinHat> elkbuntu, you rox0r!
<dinda> I'm here
<atoponce> nice
<JoeyStanford> Excellent.
<nixternal> yo yo
<elkbuntu> and.. i actually heeded it's call. it's incredible ;)
<nixternal> sorry, I was burried into some code
<JoeyStanford> Great. It's 5 after the hour so we should start.
<JoeyStanford> First on the agenda, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting  is the LoCo Docs Day
<JoeyStanford> As you can see, we're targeting the next LoCo Docs day for 3 March....this coming weekend.
<FunnyLookinHat> Didn't we say that someone was going to send an email to the list to raise awareness since we set that date?
<JoeyStanford> FunnyLookinHat, good point. We need an email plus some blogs.
<JoeyStanford> nixternal, elkbuntu, ... think the three of us can blog about this and generate awareness on the planet?
<nixternal> sure can do
<elkbuntu> JoeyStanford, we can sure try
<FunnyLookinHat> I'll digg all of you...  ; )
<atoponce> JoeyStanford: you forget Zelut and i on the planet as well... :)
<elkbuntu> FunnyLookinHat, you're better off digging the wiki page
<JoeyStanford> Excellent. So Action Rin, Nix, and Elk...and Poncey and Zelut
<FunnyLookinHat> Poncey, haha.
<Zelut> spam the planet!
* atoponce ignores that new nick...
<JoeyStanford> Does anyone want to volunteer to email the loco-contacts list?
<elkbuntu> i will
<JoeyStanford> Fantastic. Thanks.
<JoeyStanford> I'd like to propose that we blog/post about having everyone meet up in #ubuntu-locoteams for coordination.  Agree? Disagree?
<nixternal> +1
<elkbuntu> +1
<FunnyLookinHat> ++
<atoponce> +1
<JoeyStanford> ok, so carried.
<JoeyStanford> Anyone else think of any coordination related items?
<FunnyLookinHat> Are there any defined organizers for the day?
<JoeyStanford> Are you volunteering? :-)
<FunnyLookinHat> Some people we could count on watching the channel all day to point volunteers towards pages that haven't been worked on....
<elkbuntu> apart from the triad of terror? not as yet
<FunnyLookinHat> I am, if I'm not alone in that....
<FunnyLookinHat> triad + 1, sounds good.
<JoeyStanford> lol
<elkbuntu> (joey rich and myself, if you didnt already know ;))
<FunnyLookinHat> I think that's the most well known clique in the world...  i want in!
<JoeyStanford> (to the background music of Monty Python's SFTHG)
<JoeyStanford> Right then, ideas on how we can increase non-English speaking participation?
<nixternal> oh lord, a triad of terrors, be affraid, be very affraid
* nixternal makes mental note to self, afraid with 1 F
<JoeyStanford> I very much would like help from places like India, Brazil and nearby countries, etc.
<JoeyStanford> I think the language barrier of "use English" has a negative affect in this area.
<atoponce> getting non-english help on the docs, you mean?
<atoponce> like translations?
<JoeyStanford> Is there something we can do to have those teams participate?
<nixternal> translation purposes?
<JoeyStanford> Let's talk about that for a  minute.....
<elkbuntu> JoeyStanford, the wording of the blogs etc will be the key i think
<JoeyStanford> Docs Day was designed to enhance the official ubuntu wiki
<nixternal> JoeyStanford: the easiest way possibly is to create a "LoCo Doc Project" if that is possible, and submit the pages for translations
<nixternal> it kind of forces it to get translated :)
<JoeyStanford> however, we know, and encourage, the non-native-english folks to create/recreate some of the material in their own language for the betterment of their constituents.
<atoponce> are there existing docs in other languages on the wiki? this is something new to me, but i'm curious
<FunnyLookinHat> No, there are not.
<JoeyStanford> nixternal, hmm that's an idea.
<FunnyLookinHat> Official stance is to have loco teams put translations on their own websites...  at least from mdke and whatnot.
<JoeyStanford> atoponce, on loco website (e.g. brazil's is in Portuguese.)
<nixternal> JoeyStanford: these docs are meant for the Wiki correct?
<JoeyStanford> nixternal, correct.   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoDocsDay   is meant to enhance the official Ubuntu Wiki and therefore English is desired.
<nixternal> what we can do is take the english wiki markup, copy it into a text file, and submit it for translation.
<nixternal> I think
<atoponce> to launchpad?
<nixternal> sure
<JoeyStanford> My question, as I formulate it in my head, is really....should we also encourage other teams to enhance their own material?
<nixternal> use rosetta
<nixternal> JoeyStanford: if other teams aren't already enhancing their own material, we need to find out the reasons
<JoeyStanford> re: Rosetta, yes. I'm not sure how the wiki is setup there but it's technically possible to do it.
<atoponce> just thinking out lound, but wouldn't different tld's be more appropriate for wiki transaltions?
<atoponce> like wiki.ubuntu.de?
<atoponce> is that possible?
<elkbuntu> i think that sometimes teams dont contribute, because they feel like they're just a tiny unnoticed part of the overall project
<nixternal> atoponce: you would think so, but I thought there were issues with that
<atoponce> hmmm
<elkbuntu> especially if they're from places that often get overlooked
<Zelut> elkbuntu: teams are the big picture. I hope we can help that.
<JoeyStanford> elkbuntu, yes, I get that feeling as well.  I think because they are new or because of the language barrier they are timid.
<Zelut> loco teams are the front line soldiers. everything we do is important :)
<elkbuntu> Zelut, of course they are, but letting them feel the love, and feel wanted is a key issue
<nixternal> language barrier hasn't been an issue with me and other members, I can usually decypher them chewing me out :)
<JoeyStanford> The only way I know to defeat the "we're not worthy" syndrome is to request responses (and work with as appropriate) all of the teams.
<atoponce> nixternal: lol
<elkbuntu> JoeyStanford, indeed
<nixternal> hrmm, JoeyStanford that could also make for a good blog post
<elkbuntu> spotlights work wonders sometimes
<JoeyStanford> From a management point of view, we don't ask for people to come and participate, we go to them and ask them questions.
<elkbuntu> now i've seen this especially with the venezuela over the past few months. they've really come out of their shell
<JoeyStanford> and Chile is right behind them.   http://wiki.ubuntu-cl.org/
<elkbuntu> yeah
<JoeyStanford> nixternal, you want to volunteer to blog about the "we're not worthy"? You're blog is getting lighter than mine these days.
<JoeyStanford> :-)
<nixternal> sure
<JoeyStanford> Thanks mate.
<nixternal> getting lighter?
<JoeyStanford> neglected
<nixternal> dude I have moer flames than you can imagine :)
* JoeyStanford glances at the agenda again.
* FunnyLookinHat was about to mention agenda.  : )
<atoponce> i don't feel resolution with the wiki docs translation
* ausimage was the only other soul on it ;)
<atoponce> what's the outcome in it?
<atoponce> s/in/on/
<JoeyStanford> I guess the first step is to circle with Jono.
<JoeyStanford> I'd like to say "let's do it" but I would feel more comfortable getting his opinion.
<atoponce> ok. cool
<JoeyStanford> The triad can make things up but not always in the manner Jono would like to see.
<atoponce> then the next step with rosetta and launchpad?
<JoeyStanford> I'll take an action to email him.
<atoponce> cool
<JoeyStanford> right.  If Jono defines his desires and we get the green light, the next step is to talk to the website folks and see what exists and how to piggy-back on it
<JoeyStanford> the hard part for me to visualize is how someone in Russia will know the wiki was changed and needs to retranslate something. It's not very practical.
<nixternal> JoeyStanford: not for rosetta it isn't
<JoeyStanford> But maybe there can be an emphasis on the more static material...a minimal subset
<nixternal> JoeyStanford: exactly what I was thinking
<atoponce> well, the subscribe feature of the wiki could work for that...
<nixternal> use bazaar to host the project, and set that up that way
<JoeyStanford> nix, you'd have to load the page in rosetta ..wiki + rosetta is possible but I know of no easy way to do it.  I'm not the expert though.
<nixternal> atoponce: good idea as well
<JoeyStanford> but you defeat the purpose of the wiki then to some extend.
<JoeyStanford> unless we carve a piece off and do it that way
<Zelut> atoponce: how to subscribe to new pages though before they're made?
<nixternal> JoeyStanford: once it is translated, we take it back to the wiki
<atoponce> Zelut: well, you'd subscribe to the page that needs to be translated
<nixternal> that will cause our wiki to fill up though, and our wiki is w/o a doubt the biggest pos their is
<nixternal> jeesh
<nixternal> s/their/there
<JoeyStanford> yeah. Ok,I'd like to table the implementation discussion for another meeting if that's ok.
<atoponce> sounds good
<JoeyStanford> I'll circle with Jono via the loco-contacts list so it's public.
<elkbuntu> +1
<JoeyStanford> anything further on Docs Day before we move to ausimage?
<nixternal> -3+4
<FunnyLookinHat> ++
* elkbuntu swats nixternal for cheekiness
<nixternal> hehe
* nixternal ducks
<JoeyStanford> ok then, ausimage is up. He's here to talk about the Ubuntu Scribes ..or...why Joey should stop using post-it notes to record meeting minutes. :-)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> I have seen a lot of info about the Scribes team, but still have no clue what it is about. to lazy to read I guess ;)
* ausimage thinks joey would like MootBot
<ausimage> Well get ready for brief intro.... :D
<nixternal> woohoo
<ausimage> Our page is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam
<ausimage> I am the guy behind the team I wrote a MeetingSummerySpec last fall..
<ausimage> And Seeker` and I formed the team this Winter
<ausimage> Our purpose is: The aim of this team is to help augment and enhance the archiving of Ubuntu community meetings and events, and provide summaries of meetings in a consistent and concise format.
<ausimage> I am one of the individuals that has been keeping up meetinglogs and Seeker` came with a bot to help that
<atoponce> cool
<atoponce> i like the idea
<nixternal> ausimage: do you guys have a template for the meeting minutes yet? I created one last year for Kubuntu meetings if you don't have one yet.
<nixternal> btw, you guys are my heros with this project!
<JoeyStanford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MeetingTemplate
<ausimage> Yeah....
<ausimage> that ~~~
<nixternal> hehe
* JoeyStanford notes that adding "action items" to the template would be a great way to track deliverables.
<ausimage> The best way I can sure you the power of MootBot is for you to talk with Seeker` or AndrewWilliams.
<FunnyLookinHat> JoeyStanford is all about the action items.
<ausimage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot is the howto for the bot
<nixternal> ausimage: OUTSTANDING! I just looked at the 2 reports you guys did with your meetings and they look wonderful!
<nixternal> a++++++++
<ausimage> I guess I am still slightly sleepy so I will answer questions instead of babbling
<pochu> in the Ubuntu Development meetings, Matt and Coling use a boot. Is it MootBot?
<pochu> ausimage: ^^
<pochu> Colin* :)
<atoponce> ausimage: very very nice
<ausimage> no... unfortunatley not... we talked with them and they decided not to use it
<JoeyStanford> ah, I see [IDEA]  and [ACTION]   excellent.
* atoponce joined the launchpad team. looking forward to helping with it
<ausimage> I would love for everyone to use the bot It would make my life easier ;)
<nixternal> rock on atoponce!
* atoponce  the voting
<atoponce> cool stuff
<ausimage> yeah the voting is awesome stuff...
<nixternal> voting? what did I miss now?
<atoponce> ausimage: is it possible to get a copy of the bot itself? i am runnig eggdrop, and would love to look over the tcl script, and some of the code
<JoeyStanford> ausimage, it appears that MootBot is here on #ubuntu-meeting. Does that mean if we start using the tags we can get those fancy minutes?
<ausimage> I am currently bugging AndrewWilliams and Seeker` to have bot use templates.
<nixternal> nice
<ausimage> YEAH https://launchpad.net/mootbot
<ausimage> atoponce: Andrew and Seeker are looking for help ;)
<atoponce> everything, i assume, is in the tcl script?
<ausimage> Well yeah JoeyStanford
<JoeyStanford> excellent, I'm digging the commands on the bot page.
<ausimage> I believe so atoponce you would need to bug them for detaiils
<nixternal> ausimage: I take it you all are ready for the prime time then, taking on all of the meetings that occur in here?
<atoponce> ausimage: will do
<ausimage> As ready as I can...
<nixternal> sweet
<nixternal> have you talked to the CC about using your setup for logging and scribing the minutes yet?
<ausimage> the nice thing about our bot is we can go to your chanel as well
<ausimage> not the CC... though I am not sure how well they would ahere some days ;)
<ausimage> *adhere
<atoponce> i just want the source, to implement it into UtahBot (my failed attempt at a bot... )
<nixternal> ausimage: If you want to read the Fridge cal and have the bot automatically show up or what not, let me know if you need special tags or what not so we can implement them into the FridgeCal
* ausimage has posted many crazy CC meetings
<ausimage> nixternal: I wrote the fridge pleading for location tags
<nixternal> also I think the Scribes team might be one of the most "rewarding" ways to kick off a new users "Ubuntu Career" as well
<nixternal> hmm, ausimage I will look through the devmail and see what's up
<ausimage> yeah... if read my page..... you will see my thoughts on why I think having minutes is important
<nixternal> ausimage: minutes are super importantn
* ausimage is going for membership tomorrow :)
<FunnyLookinHat> !!
<FunnyLookinHat> :)
<nixternal> from 2005 until the summer of 2006 I was recording them for the Kubuntu team. It becomes a pain really quick sifting through the logs, but MootBot can fix that
<atoponce> minutes are the only way to look back on what was brought up and how to improve ideas
<ausimage> yup exactly....
<JoeyStanford> nixternal, I agree. I see much benefit here.
<JoeyStanford> So that means that for future meetings we should try to take advantage of MootBot.
<ausimage> which is why I cringe when things are taken the list sometimes not as there for you
* nixternal will brb
<ausimage> yeah joey... we give you lessons if you like...
<JoeyStanford> ausimage, is there anything special that we need to do at the LoCo group to use MootBot on #ubuntu-meetings other than the startmeeting command?
<ausimage> no but you can also hold your meeting in your own channel if you like...
<ausimage> it is recomended you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/SubmitMeeting
<JoeyStanford> ah, that would be good for #ubuntu-us
<ausimage> yeah.....
<atoponce> i think this is great. i just can't settle my excitement. this is *really* cool!
<JoeyStanford> I agree. Very cool.
<ausimage> Yeah I was amazed at what Seeker` brought to the table....
<FunnyLookinHat> I'm sorry guys, but I have to head out at this point.    This Scribes stuff is awesome though!
* atoponce always uses window logging in irssi, which isn't bad, but the features of MootBot...
<ausimage> any other questions???
<JoeyStanford> ausimage, thanks for waking up early to come talk to us about this. It's all very exciting.
<ausimage> yeah drop by #ubuntu-scribes anytime
<JoeyStanford> I'll update the LoCo meeting page to include the mootbot startup stuff so we remember to use it for the next meeting
* ausimage wonders when his mailinglist will be available
* atoponce adds the chaennel to his auto-join list
<elkbuntu> ausimage, mailing list? for the scribes team?
<ausimage> yeah... elkbuntu Seeker` sent a note elmo weeks ago...
<elkbuntu> rt {at} admin {dot} canonical {dot} com
<elkbuntu> that should get you an answer sooner
<ausimage> thanks elkbuntu
<ausimage> hey I wanted to say there is a new baby loco here today ;)
* nixternal has to head out for a bit, thanks everyone for a good meeting!
<JoeyStanford> Any further questions on the Scribes team?
<elkbuntu> ausimage, hmm?
<ausimage> yeah NewYorkTeam is lurking in here
<atoponce> JoeyStanford: not at present. in #ubuntu-scribes, though, so will ask there...
* JoeyStanford wonders if he met any of the NY LoCo at Ubuncon?
<JoeyStanford> Last order of business: Next LoCo Meeting
* atoponce as part of the US Teams Project, picked up NY as a mentor
<elkbuntu> i thought there was already an unapproved NY team, and also an unapproved NY suburb team :-/
<JoeyStanford> March 11th appears to be the next cycle date.
<atoponce> JoeyStanford: we have docs day coming up, should we keep a channel open for discussion during that day?
<atoponce> or just #ubuntu-locoteams?
<JoeyStanford> we talked about using #ubuntu-locoteams earlier.
<atoponce> ok. cool
<JoeyStanford> We'll also get the lurkers then :-)
<JoeyStanford> vote: March 11th for next meeting date
<atoponce> sounds good
<elkbuntu> +1
<elkbuntu> for a time other than 4am AEST :(
<atoponce> +8 hours?
<JoeyStanford> ok, I'll tentatively set it up for the 11th.
<JoeyStanford> Any time recommendations?
<JoeyStanford> elkbuntu, if you want to run it, we can do it at a non-favourable time for the USA
<elkbuntu> +8 would rule me out due to daytime committments
<atoponce> +16?
<atoponce> er, -8, i guess
<elkbuntu> +12 works for me
* atoponce is a fan of rotating the time at each meet
<JoeyStanford> elkbuntu, what's that in GMT please?
<effie_jayx> :D
<JoeyStanford> 22?
<elkbuntu> JoeyStanford, it's 5am here, dont make me do math
<atoponce> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: LoCo Team | 26 Feb 23:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 20:00: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 22:00: Xubuntu
<dinda> what's a good city in India to use for timeanddate.com
<atoponce> bleh
<JoeyStanford> bangalore
<dinda> thx
<atoponce> this started at 17:00, so +12 would be 04:00 i think
<atoponce> 05:00 i guess
<elkbuntu> hmm that's a bit trashy on the europeans then
<atoponce> utc
<JoeyStanford> I just glanced at the fridge, the majority average to starting at 10 GMT or 21 GMT
* atoponce doesn't care too much. set the time, and i'll be ther
<atoponce> *there
* JoeyStanford notes that setting a time will take longer than the entire meeting did. :-)
<elkbuntu> well... we could +5 and it would suit me
<elkbuntu> and be ok for europeans too
<JoeyStanford> +5 is what India complained about on the list.
<elkbuntu> or +6
<elkbuntu> or whatever, im half asleep here
<atoponce> if we keep the rotating, +8 or whatever, then we accomodate everyone at least once
* atoponce remembers this was brought up on the mailing list
<dinda> i wasn't complaining re: India, just needed it for another meeting
<JoeyStanford> ok, I'll list the time is as TBD
<atoponce> lol
<elkbuntu> atoponce, +8 wont suit me due to daytime committments though, unfortunately
<JoeyStanford> I have another commitment so I have to depart.
<elkbuntu> cool, im cralwing back to bed now
<elkbuntu> cyas
<atoponce> ttyl
<JoeyStanford> We'll set the time via the list.
<JoeyStanford> Thanks everyone
<ausimage> night elkbuntu
<JoeyStanford> ========================>  End  LoCo Meeting <============================
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Feb 23:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 28 Feb 18:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 01 Mar 15:00 UTC: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-02-18
<Brian323> Hello
<ubuntuwestbengal> hello
<ubuntuwestbengal> hi Jono, I just submitted an approval application for Ubuntu West Bengal
<jono> hey ubuntuwestbengal
<jono> cool
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir, how long will it take for our team to be approved?
<jono> ubuntuwestbengal: did you email me about it?
<jono> or add it to the CC meeting?
<ubuntuwestbengal> yes sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> i sent the link to you
<ubuntuwestbengal> in an email
<ubuntuwestbengal> jono@ubuntu.com i think
<ubuntuwestbengal> Sir, it would be great if we got approved. It would be a privilege for all of us here.
<ubuntuwestbengal> since we are putting in our best to add to the Ubuntu community from our side
<ubuntuwestbengal> Sir, is there any other input required from our side?
<ubuntuwestbengal> Please do let me know if there is
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-02-19
<coolbhavi> hello
<coolbhavi> I have a doubt
<coolbhavi> How to get recognised as a Ubuntu Member in the forums?
<ogra> coolbhavi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto
<coolbhavi> ogra  I too am an ubuntu member.. ;-) See my cloak.. :)
<ogra> well, then i dont know
<jsgotangco> coolbhavi: i believe you have to notify a forums mod/leader
<coolbhavi> Ok..
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-02-20
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: TriLoCo-Midwest Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Feb 19:00 UTC: Platform Team | 20 Feb 20:00 UTC: Education Team | 20 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 21 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council
<Palintheus> @schedule cst
<Palintheus> @schedule chicago
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 20 Feb 13:00: Platform Team | 20 Feb 14:00: Education Team | 20 Feb 15:00: Server Team | 21 Feb 08:00: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 14:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 06:00: Education Team
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Feb 19:00 UTC: Platform Team | 20 Feb 20:00 UTC: Education Team | 20 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 21 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team
<lokisan> hello
<acidburn> hello there
<acidburn> noones talking... so boring....
<cjwatson> good morning
<cjwatson> the fridge calendar is wrong, apparently; I've poked them about it
<calc> good morning
<ArneGoetje> good $timeofday
<bryce> good morning (well, almost)
<TheMuso> I've not forgotten, just come back from an hour away from the keyboard after my stint today.
<evand> morning
<bryce> TheMuso: perfect timing
<TheMuso> Hey evand.
 * asac waves 
<ogra> yaaawn
<ogra> morning
<TheMuso> evand: WHen you have a minute, we need to talk re dmraid. I just read your report.
<evand> hi TheMuso, good evening to you.
<evand> TheMuso: sure
<cjwatson> ok, so first things first, I've noticed that I'm taking a while to get the meeting notes out
<cjwatson> would anyone like to volunteer as a secretary?
<cjwatson> it's not particularly hard, I just find it tends to get pushed out of the way by other stuff
<TheMuso> I'll do it if nobody else has a desire to... (Knowing that his essentially commits me to doing them, but oh well.)
<TheMuso> I have done a few MOTU meeting minutes, so I know its not hard.
<cjwatson> more than one volunteer means you get to alternate ;-)
<TheMuso> There is that yes.
<Hobbsee> or use mootbot?
<cjwatson> mootbot might help but won't suffice; we want something human-edited
<TheMuso> I don't think mootbot is applicable for these meetings.
<TheMuso> No real need.
<cjwatson> BTW, though I haven't historically got round to it, the notes should go up on the wiki somewhere as well as being posted to distro-team
<cjwatson> TheMuso: ok, thanks for offering, and in that case please go ahead
<TheMuso> cjwatson: Ok. What wiki URL format do we want to use?
<TheMuso> I.e do we want the minutes udner a particular area in the wiki?
<cjwatson> desktop is DesktopTeam/Meeting/YYYYMMDD
<cjwatson> so PlatformTeam/Meeting/YYYYMMDD sounds good to me
<TheMuso> fair enough
<cjwatson>  * Actions from last week:
<cjwatson>   * Arne to consult with Martin and Michael regarding
<cjwatson>     langpack-o-matic/language-selector work
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: I understand Martin's side is done; how is Michael's side going?
<ArneGoetje> mvo will do it, I guess he was to busy yesterday, but it is on his agenda for these days
<cjwatson> ok, as long as it hasn't fallen off
<cjwatson>   * Chris to check whether en_GB strings where msgid == msgstr have
<cjwatson>     been stripped out of the English langpacks
<ArneGoetje> nope, it hasn't. I'll keep you posted
<cjwatson> calc: you mentioned something about this last night; any further progress?
<calc> cjwatson: hadn't had a chance to talk to doko about it yet, been beating on the xulrunner stuff most of the day
<calc> cjwatson: i emailed him but i don't know if he read it yet
<calc> doko_: i seem to recall you mentioning before if we strip out messages it causes problems with OOo is that the case for cjwatson is talking about here?
<cjwatson> doko_: are you in fact here?
<cjwatson> ok, I think doko is present in body but not in spirit
<cjwatson> let's move on and we can come back to that if he appears
<cjwatson>  * LTS point release team
<calc> ok, well i think he had said before that it causes crashes, but i may be misrembering and i'll try to find out for certain asap
<cjwatson> calc: indeed, this ought to be subject to experimental verification once you get a chance
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> so, as I think has been mentioned, we're going to be doing point releases of 8.04, as an LTS
<cjwatson> and we would like to put enough resources into that to make it pretty respectable, without burning people out who are already focusing on 8.10 development
<asac> most likely in the middle of the server support cycle? (e.g. 2.5 years?)
<cjwatson> asac: more frequently than that; the first point release is likely to be a few months out from 8.04 itself
<cjwatson> I don't want to go into an exact schedule since this is a public channel and we haven't settled on it yet, and rumours do tend to spread :-)
<TheMuso> cjwatson: Will it be similar to 6.06.2, where it will only be for servers, and not desktops? Or does that depend on what has been fixed?
<asac> cjwatson: ok
<cjwatson> TheMuso: in this case it'll be both
<cjwatson> 6.06.2 was just servers because desktops were starting to look not worth the effort given the support lifetime
<TheMuso> Yeah I thought thatwas the case.
<cjwatson> but, in this case, it's a question of keeping a few desktop guys focused on 8.04 when they would ordinarily have switched over
<asac> like catching up on features that didn't make the real release?
<cjwatson> the current agreement is for Steve to lead this effort, and have a virtual team of a few platform, a few desktop, a few server, a few QA
<cjwatson> asac: I think catching up on bug-fixing is more likely
<asac> ok
<cjwatson> this is, essentially, a stabilisation effort
<evand> are we really large enough to lose that many people to such an effort without feature development in the next release seriously suffering?
<cjwatson> feature development in 8.10 will likely take some kind of a hit, yes
<cjwatson> although I don't think it will be a critical one
<cjwatson> this is sort of similar in some ways to what we did with the 6.06 delay and its effect on 6.10, but hopefully a bit less severe
<evand> ok
<cjwatson> while 6.10 didn't open until June, 8.10 will open in April or early May as usual, and everyone who isn't still focused on 8.04 will be able to get it up and running
<cjwatson> 8.04 is more important in many ways, though, and there is growing consensus that we need to be able to deliver stable and timely point releases of LTSes, rather than it being a side effort
<cjwatson> so what I want to do here is both explain what's happening and answer questions on it, and also look for the right people to take part in this from this group
<cjwatson> my feeling is that it should be the people who would be most snowed under with SRU work anyway
<cjwatson> and also people with a capacity to field general platformish bugs from all over, which QA will be hunting down
<cjwatson> deafening silence :-)
<Hobbsee> you scared them all off!
<ArneGoetje> well, I don't fit the criteria... :)
<cjwatson> bryce: I suspect we may need somebody able to field X problems, for instance
<bryce> cjwatson: sure thing
<cjwatson> ok, I think I will select people over the next week or two and talk with you about it
<cjwatson> but if you feel you are particularly appropriate or inappropriate for the task, please shout
<cjwatson>  * Routines post-FF
<TheMuso> I think I'd probably be inappropriate only because there is a lot of a11y stuff happening next cycle, and we need to keep on top of it, however, if I'm asked, I'll consider it.
<cjwatson> TheMuso: *nod*, thanks
<cjwatson> this is perhaps obvious to old-timers, but I just wanted to sketch out the routine from here to 8.04 so that everyone is clear on what we're expected to be doing from here on
<cjwatson> with the exception of a few ... exceptions, features should be complete, although I expect that many of them may still need to have their bugs shaken out
<cjwatson> for anything non-trivial, please go to special effort to gather explicit testing, and fill out the testing plan section on the wiki specification
<cjwatson> other than that, we should be in full steam for fixing as many bugs as we can for hardy, and making it a great stable release
<cjwatson> Leann has prepared a qa-hardy bug list just for us, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/qa-hardy-list-archive/sort-by-package/platform-buglist.html
<TheMuso> Nice
 * TheMuso bookmarks
<cjwatson> if you have things on that, please either talk to me or her about untagging them (there's at least one infeasible grub bug I need to get untagged), or fix them at your earliest convenience
<cjwatson> please also make sure you are adequately kept informed of new bugs coming in, and make sure to be responsive to them
<asac> the firefox bugs don't make much sense ;) ... we should untag them all
<cjwatson> even those you can't fix should get an update and forwarded upstream where appropriate
<asac> i will talk with lean to figure the real bugs
<cjwatson> asac: thanks
<bryce> cjwatson: regarding feature exceptions, I'd like to talk with you about the xrandr configuration gui - RedHat is working on a tool which will be going upstream, and I'd like your direction about adopting and polishing that.  Or perhaps since we're past FF, other options I should take.
<cjwatson> asac: looks like she was trying to gather the most-duplicates crash reports
<cjwatson> bryce: yep, was going to come to that shortly
<bryce> ok cool
<cjwatson> in order to be kept informed of new bugs and new comments on existing bugs, Launchpad really isn't quite up to providing the sort of feed-type information you'd need to do this entirely with the web UI yet, and so it's important that you become friends with bugmail if you aren't already
<cjwatson> pitti wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFilter which may be helpful in dealing with the flood
<TheMuso> X-Launchpad-Message-Rationale is a useful filter.
 * TheMuso uses that for all bugmail that doesn't go to an ML.
<cjwatson> bryce: ok
<cjwatson> bryce: my concern on your question is that I thought you were already some way into your UI, and were nearing feature-completion
<bryce> the UI is pretty well done, and I have been working on the application of the xrandr changes.
<bryce> I estimate being about a week from having it feature complete, however the redhat tool is more likely to be accepted upstream
<cjwatson> what's the current state of the RH tool?
<bryce> it is functional and feature complete except for a couple minor things, but needs integration / packaging work done to it, and the UI needs a few tweaks
<bryce> I dug through it and experimented with it a bit over the weekend, and it looks pretty well thought out.  It does need polish though.
<cjwatson> I assume you only became aware of it over the last week? :-)
<bryce> correct; I learned about it wednesday
<cjwatson> is the reason that RH's tool is more likely to go upstream that it is being written by existing core X developers?
<bryce> it came to light after I proposed what I was working on to the gnome-control-center list (whose archives I'd dug through before starting my effort)
<bryce> The RH person working on it has been involved in gnome-control-center in the past, and I gather had discussed this with some of the gnome folks at a conference a while ago
<cjwatson> hard choice
<bryce> yeah
<cjwatson> it sounds like the best plan is to grab desktop team folks and talk about the best way to get the RH work integrated ASAP; if possible, perhaps even for alpha 5
<cjwatson> (though that's very close now)
<bryce> other options I've thought about include just setting it aside for now, and fixing up displayconfig-gtk best we can, or even just dropping gui config and sticking with the command line solutions
<cjwatson> but keep your existing work around in case we need to fall back to that
 * bryce nods
<cjwatson> we'd already decided against displayconfig-gtk, I thought, and I don't think a command-line solution is good enough
<bryce> yup
<cjwatson> it is unfortunate that it's one more thing that the /. crowd can complain came from RH rather than Canonical ... but so it goes
<bryce> yep, I was really looking forward to putting something from canonical upstream but I really get the sense it's not going to be an option here.
<cjwatson> bryce: definitely grab seb128 and talk through it with him
<bryce> great, thanks, will do.
<cjwatson> any other business?
<asac> maybe can take care that the previous meeting minutes go to wiki/public as well?
<TheMuso> wiki/public?
<cjwatson> I can do that over time, though I will have to check that I didn't put anything confidential in them
<evand>  * What's the status of the pycentral issue?  We haven't had a new live
<evand> filesystem since the 9th.
<asac> cjwatson: ok
<cjwatson> pycentral only came up yesterday; I thought Michael fixed it yesterday too?
<ogra> evand, fixed
<ogra> my dist-upgrade just went through like a breeze
<TheMuso> I updated during today to find it fixed.
<cjwatson> bug 192992 is still Confirmed
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192992 in python-central "[hardy] pycentral crashed with ValueError in parse_versions()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192992
<slangasek> is it fixed?  the bug is listed as open
<ogra> i dont think mvo added any LP entries to his changelog
<evand> ah, we still seem to have trouble with the following though:
<ogra> so need to be closed manually
<evand>  ssl-cert
<evand>  cupsys
<evand>  cupsys-driver-gutenprint
<evand>  hal-cups-utils
<evand>  ubuntu-desktop
<evand> not saying that's related to pycentral though
<evand> from: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/hardy/ubuntu/20080220/livecd-20080220-amd64.out
<ogra> cupsys is likely java related
<evand> (that's from an hour or two ago)
<ogra> and desktop is because of cupsys indeed
<slangasek> ogra: ok; it was fixed in a python-central upload though, right?
<ogra> slangasek, yep
<ogra> mvo isnt around yet i think thats the reason he didnt close it yet (wanting feedback first)
<cjwatson> ogra: cupsys fails because it depends on ssl-cert which fails
<cjwatson> (read the log :-))
<ogra> well, i was guessing :)
<slangasek> ok, good to hear it's fixed then, that means I'll be able to get to sleep sooner tonight :)
<cjwatson> ssl-cert looks like it's failing because hostname says "Unknown host"
<ogra> heh
<slangasek> oh ugh, that'd be my bug then
<ogra> yeah, seems the network connection on the buildds sucks ... :) i just learned that with edubuntu-addon-meta :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: the only change is hostname -> hostname -f; why does the one work and the other fail in the livefs build env?
<slangasek> (hmm, we can take that out of the meeting)
<ogra> (joking)
<cjwatson> we do need to get new live filesystems today, but that's obvious :)
<cjwatson> ok, if that's all, then we'll adjourn
<cjwatson> thanks all
<calc> goodnight everyone :-)
<evand> thanks!
<bryce> thanks
<asac> thank!
<TheMuso> Np, minutes may either be tongiht my time, but certainly tomorrow.
<slangasek> thanks
<TheMuso> my time
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<ogra> thanks
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Feb 20:00 UTC: Education Team | 20 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 21 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team
<ubuntuwestbengal> is there anyone here from the community council?
<ubuntuwestbengal> anyone?
<emgent> heya
<pedro_> hello!
 * ogasawara waves
<heno> hi!
<liw> hola
<davmor2> hello
<Iulian> Hi
 * stgraber waves
<heno> hey everyone!
<heno> let's start
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:01. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> [TOPIC] qa-hardy-list promotion
<MootBot> New Topic:  qa-hardy-list promotion
<heno> ogasawara: thanks for splitting that up. I've emailed various lists about it and will attend IRC meetings to follow up
<heno> I don't think that needs discussion
<heno> [TOPIC] QA poll site beta testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA poll site beta testing
<nand> hi! sorry, a bit late
<heno> nand: just getting to your topic
<bdmurray> heno: Do you promotion in terms of advertising?
<nand> perfect timing :)
<nand> heno: some news on the subdomains?
<heno> bdmurray: yes
<heno> nand: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ ...
<nand> it's up?
<heno> bdmurray: any further ides on that?
<heno> nand: yes
<bdmurray> heno: no, I was thinking of promotion as "escalation" not promoting
<heno> but I guess it needs some drupal magic
<stgraber> hmm, cookie seems broken on brainstorm.ubuntu.com
<stgraber> nand: the cookie thing I told you about ^^
<bdmurray> I'm all set now though
<heno> ok, cool
<nand> nice! Tomorrow, we'll update the htaccess and sql updates
<nand> stgraber: yes, I guess we will have to do with it
<nand> That will give us a short time to test
<heno> should we devise a test plan for the site? (everyone here add 3 ideas and 3 bugs or something)
<stgraber> nand: well, as it's now I just can't login on brainstorm.u.c, so I'll have to update the cookie part of the config file to fix that
<heno> just asking 'please test' doesn't seem to be working
<stgraber> indeed :)
<nand> yes, let's ask everyone to add a few bugs/ideas, at least to have some pagination
<heno> ok, hands up all who volunteer to add 3 items to each site and do some voting and poking around
<heno> o/
<nand> what a crowd today :)
<heno> [... silence ...]
<nand> ok, I'll flood it myself...
<ogasawara> I'll try to do some testing
<davmor2> I can o/
<heno> it should take about 7 minutes :)
<nand> heno: do you want to know right now the planned release date, to coordinate and such?
<stgraber> nand: did you switch to GET instead of POST for the ajax stuff in your next commit ? (I'm not sure it'll fix my PROXY bug but it's worth a try and shouldn't cause any regression)
<heno> does everyone have access to the beta?
<stgraber> if everyone means people speaking in this chan, then yes
<nand> stgraber: not yet. I'll try tonight
<heno> ok, cool
<stgraber> I was thinking of Thursday the 28th as a release date
<pedro_> stgraber: I've logged in and it doesn't work here, I've got a cute 403 again
<stgraber> pedro_: use qa.ubuntu.com/qapoll/ideas and qa.ubuntu.com/qapoll/bugs instead
<davmor2> stgraber: I can't log in either as above
<stgraber> pedro_: brainstorm.u.c doesn't work yet
<stgraber> davmor2: same as pedro_
<nand> wait for tomorrow's update
<davmor2> stgraber: yes
<pedro_> ok ok
<nand> 28th : we can try for it
<nand> monday we reset everything, remove the restriction
<nand> that means everything must be ok friday
<davmor2> stgraber: ping me when it's safe to test
<stgraber> I'll be on holiday next week so I should have time to fix last minute stuff for the release
<nand> nice
<stgraber> davmor2: you can use qa.ubuntu.com, it'll be the same module but with a different URL
<heno> yeah I just noticed that too. brainstorm.u.c won't work just yet i guess
<davmor2> stgraber: yes I mean the brainstorm
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: please have a quick poke at the bugs part at least http://qa.ubuntu.com/qapoll/bugs/
<stgraber> nand: IIRC the site config which contains the cookie definition is a php file, so we probably can update the cookie field depending on the URL
<stgraber> nand: the user will have to login twice anyway
<ogasawara> heno: will do
<bdmurray> heno: okay
<stgraber> davmor2: brainstorm.ubuntu.com will be an alias for http://qa.ubuntu.com/qapoll/ideas
<heno> about launch date: I'm happy for nand and stgraber to decide on that
<davmor2> stgraber: that works :) so you just want a bunch of ideas dropping in there to test it?
<stgraber> davmor2: yep
<davmor2> stgraber: np
 * heno looks at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
<heno> nothing bit happening just after Alpha 5
<stgraber> 28th will be the UI/artwork freeze
<heno> *big
<bdmurray> Isn't it a bit late for ideas since we are past feature freeze?
<nand> heno: How many days before the release do you want to be warned, for coordination and stuff?
<heno> bdmurray: these would be seed ideas for the next UDS
<nand> bdmurray: of course, it's ideas for hardy+1 :)
<davmor2> bdmurray: it can be like the one I am currently writing an on going idea :)
<bdmurray> Okay, they doesn't seem to be conveyed at qapoll/ideas/
<stgraber> bdmurray: well, just report those as usability bug then :)
<heno> nand: a day or two is fine for me personally
<nand> ok
<heno> I do want to write some docs explaining the purpose of each site
<heno> can we have an About link on each?
<bdmurray> I think managing people's expectations is important and should happen right at the site.
<davmor2> stgraber: seems to work fine :)
<nand> yes, we should. And with some contacts too
<heno> bdmurray: agreed
<stgraber> nand: I did a quick demo of QA-Poll to one of my teachers this morning and something that was hard to understand/use was the duplicate UI
<nand> I think instead of the "Ubuntu website" link, we could put a "About" box
<nand> stgraber: what was confusing?
<stgraber> nand: IIRC, you can't just select two ideas in the idea list and mark those as duplicates and the link on the idea page was hard to find
<heno> sounds good
<heno> let's continue the details of that in #u-testing or so
<heno> [TOPIC] Kernel bug list migration. see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/KernelBugMigration
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel bug list migration. see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/KernelBugMigration
<nand> ok, please continue!
<heno> ogasawara and I have been looking at this with the LP folks
<heno> it's a sensitive issue; automatically modifying lots of bugs
<heno> the transition to a new package name is a good time to do it though
<heno> pedro_: have you been doing the gaim -> pidgin migration? any fall-out from that?
<ogasawara> heno:  I think as long as we are clear to our bug reporters that we are not closing their bugs but rather making sure we're carrying them forward we won't have too much backlash
<bdmurray> ogasawara: I check with markus regarding adding a task
<pedro_> heno: it was just for the upstream project and there's like 20 bugs or so, so changing that wouldn't be hard
<heno> so are we agreed on the approach? add a 'linux' task set to incomplete and set the others to 'Won'f fix'?
<pedro_> at point 4 of the process which metadata you loss if you change the task from linux-source-something to linux?
<pedro_> the name of the package?
<pedro_> can that be resolved with a tag?
<heno> yeah, what meta data is lost?
<bdmurray> I'm concerned about "Won't fix"ing some that may be sru worthy
<pedro_> because for me it seems that the option 4 is the best one
<ogasawara> i was concerned about losing the history of a bug being open across multiple releases
<heno> bdmurray: are you worried that they will slip off our radar as well (the won't fix can be changed again)
<bdmurray> I seem to recall talking about Ben about that and that is something he didn't want to lose.
<bdmurray> heno: I think that 2.6.15 or 2.6.22 bugs that are high or critical should be manually inspected.
<heno> bdmurray: agreed, I assume we can black list those in the script
<heno> or ust looked at first
<heno> *just
<heno> when should we move forward with this? do we need a dry run of some kind?
<bdmurray> right, either way.
<ogasawara> we'll need to investigate the adding new tasks functionality with plb
<heno> ok, let's add a todo list to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/KernelBugMigration
<ogasawara> I'll add it
<heno> * new task functionality, * manually clean up some categories of bugs, * dry run, * live run
<heno> or so
<heno> ok, cool. net topic
<heno> ah, my typing sux today :(
<heno> [TOPIC] malone buglist - tagging these so they are viewable in Launchpad. see: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/malone-buglist.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  malone buglist - tagging these so they are viewable in Launchpad. see: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/malone-buglist.html
<davmor2> heno: my typing sucks everyday :)
<ogasawara> so mpt was inquiring why we don't just tag the bugs lists here and then use lp to display them
<heno> I assume we are looking for volunteers here? ;)
<ogasawara> I have a script to tag bugs
<heno> ogasawara: right, that's what bjorn wants as well
 * heno cheers ogasawara
<ogasawara> so can we agree on a tag name?
<heno> let's JUST DO IT
<ogasawara> ubuntu-qa?
<heno> sounds good, that lets other teams use ubuntu-desktop etc.
<bdmurray> How could we convey the importance of the bug to us?
<heno> we don't do it ATM, apart from the comment column
<ogasawara> we could easily just have it as part of the tag for ex - ubuntu-qa-high
<heno> adding a separate tag or changing it to ubuntu-qa-high both seem like cludgy
<bdmurray> Actually, I'm not certain how useful that is.
<heno> ogasawara: yeah, but then you have to search on 3 tags
<bdmurray> I mean its no different than someone saying I have to have this piece of hardy working.
<pedro_> does lp allow you to search for more than one tag?
<pedro_> right...
<ogasawara> pedro_: yup
<bdmurray> wow, bad typing is contagious.  I meant this piece of hardware
<davmor2> bdmurray: does this list not pertain to bugs already listed if so wouldn't the bug itself have a rating?
<heno> perhaps we should just pick out our top 10 and email the list to bjorn
<heno> ... once a week :)
<bdmurray> heno: heh
<ogasawara> does the Importance that's already set in the report not properly reflect the priority we think it should be?
<heno> ogasawara: often not; as that's LP's own take on the priority
<davmor2> ogasawara: That's my point I think.  Just put better :)
<heno> Ubuntu is only one of many users of LP (though by far the biggest ATM)
<heno> can we use ubuntu-qa + ubuntu-high?
<ogasawara> so will us marking our own priority actually get them to resolve it faster?
<bdmurray> Thinking about it some more I've never seen a definition of how the Launchpad team uses bug Status, but it is probably not the same as we, the Ubuntu distro, use them.
<heno> that way you avoid the permutations at least
<heno> and you can get a full ubuntu-qa list easily
<bdmurray> I think by shoehorning our priority in there we are setting a bad precedent.
<heno> that's true
<ogasawara> I think we should be no different than any other lp users
<ogasawara> we see reports all the time where bug reporters feel their bugs are top priority
<heno> I think intel do this on some bugs
<heno> with an intel-high tag
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Education Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 21 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team
<ogasawara> heno:  right, they do
<heno> shall we proceed with just the ubuntu-qa tag and look at social forms of communicating priority first?
<heno> email and bug comments
<bdmurray> that sounds best to me
<pedro_> agreed
<ogasawara> sounds good
<heno> good, next topic
<heno> [TOPIC] yesterday's bugs formatting discussion draft at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewBugs/20080219
<MootBot> New Topic:  yesterday's bugs formatting discussion draft at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewBugs/20080219
<heno> are we getting a wiki page for each day?
<bdmurray> not yet, I wanted opinions on its utility / formatting
<heno> could be useful for 5-a-day work
<bdmurray> I was thinking having a column for the sourcepackage might be more useful than the Status/Importance
<heno> someone might chose to focus on those pages
<bdmurray> heno: right, I also though it would be useful in "staying on top" of New bug reports
<heno> yep Status/Importance is a bit pointless here
<bdmurray> of the 170 new yesterday 123 are still New
<bdmurray> that's very approximate
<ogasawara> I think it'd be helpful to see the package name
<heno> but some are fix released :)
<heno> how often is it updated? ever?
<ogasawara> I think that's why there is the disclaimer at the top no?
<heno> it would be very cool to look at a page like this from a month ago
<bdmurray> It isn't updated and the query took about 140 minutes
<heno> with updated statuses
<heno> eeek
<liw> 140 minutes? uh...
<bdmurray> There might be a way to optimize how I'm doing it though
<pedro_> with the new brach? ouch
<heno> bdmurray: that's on your home machine?
<heno> or in the DC?
<bdmurray> nope, that's on rookery
<heno> ooo
<heno> can we justify running that every day?
<bdmurray> Okay, so the answer is it seems quite useful but needs to be faster then.
<heno> bdmurray: let's raise this with kiko; he might have some ideas on that
<heno> with that we are out of time. there is another meeting after us
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:00.
<heno> thanks all!
<davmor2> np
<pedro_> thanks
<ogra_cmpc> wow
 * ogra_cmpc is impressed
<heno> I'll write a summary -- the agenda was a bit late :)
<ogra_cmpc> on the minute ....
<ogra_cmpc> are you guys sure youre not german somehow ?
<liw> jawohl
<pedro_> well i like beer
<heno> ogra_cmpc: just quality-oriented
 * RichEd is getting coffee ... and invites mr grawert to drive the meeting tonight
<ogra_cmpc> well, lets get started with tech then
<ogra_cmpc> the addon cd is there (yay)
<ogra_cmpc> there are not many changes to the content yet and it might currently list apps in gnome-app-install that arent there
<ogra_cmpc> i also noticed that we still ship the winfoss software
<ogra_cmpc> (which currently takes about 200M)
<ogra_cmpc> we also have tons of langpacks we dont need on it
<ogra_cmpc> if we drop all that the actual size left should be around 200 to 250M
<ogra_cmpc> so plenty space to fill in the future
<ogra_cmpc> and we didnt actually lose any functionallity
<ogra_cmpc> i didnt do much in ltsp land last week ... digging through some bugs and trying to confirm them ...
<ogra_cmpc> we're down to 38 bugs for ltsp atm
<ogra_cmpc> i hope to get the majority cleaned out by release
<ogra_cmpc> since ltsp is gone into ubuntu and edubuntu-server doesnt have any other dependencies atm i decided to not build a separate edubuntu-content-server package but to use edubuntu-server for that
<ogra_cmpc> well, beyond that, italc and pangosdl still arent in main, that should happen asap
<ogra_cmpc> i hope to have the time for the paperwork during the rest of the week
<ogra_cmpc> alpha5 is due end of the week, indeed i'd like to see some testing of the new cd
<ogra_cmpc> well, thats it so far with reports from my side ....
<ogra_cmpc> questions ?
<stgraber> well, less bug and a add-on CD what else do you want ? :)
<ogra_cmpc> more time :)
<stgraber> well, 48h days are something you should spec about :)
<ogra_cmpc> and hardy out the door so we can actually play with crack again
<ogra_cmpc> its hard to stay calm ... there is so much cool stuff out there that wants to be developed
<ogra_cmpc> damned LTSes
<ogra_cmpc> :)
<stgraber> about Alpha-5, anything that needs extensive testing ?
<stgraber> is LTSP in Alternate's boot menu ?
<ogra_cmpc> not yet
<ogra_cmpc> poping up g-a-i and listing edubuntu-desktop is the main point for alternate
<stgraber> ok, so we'll probably just check that the images aren't broken
<ogra_cmpc> oh and indeed e-d installability
<ogra_cmpc> but i.ll test that tomorrow during the cleanup
<ogra_cmpc> for now basic functiuonallity is the most important
<ogra_cmpc> no, no menu entry yet
<ogra_cmpc> colin wants me to work into gfboot and do the changes myself so i get familiar with it ...
<ogra_cmpc> but gfxboot is a mean beast i'm slightly slow grasping it
<stgraber> good luck :) (I once had to add a keyboard in it so I have an idea of how evil is that thing)
<ogra_cmpc> yeah
<ogra_cmpc> well, the addon should have a shiny gfxboot screen telling you in friendly words that you need the main cd first
<ogra_cmpc> so thats another open issue
<stgraber> about iTalc, I haven't received any test result except from Francis (who found a couple of remaining bugs)
<stgraber> should we ask for testing on edubuntu-user/-devel ?
<ogra_cmpc> we shou.d start a wider call
<ogra_cmpc> yeah
<ogra_cmpc> -user
 * ogra_cmpc doesnt see any other tech questions
<ogra_cmpc> (actually i dont see any other attendees :P)
<stgraber> :)
<ogra_cmpc> RichEd, your turn ?
<RichEd> not much from my side ... just a tired & fried brain :)
<RichEd> still working on education web content for the ubuntu web site
<RichEd> and have also been tasked to do an edubuntu wiki page explaining the name migration
<RichEd> (calling for comments & opinion)
<ogra_cmpc> oh, right
<RichEd> ... that's about it
<ogra_cmpc> tell me the final names during the week please
<ogra_cmpc> i'll adjust the iso pages
<ogra_cmpc> it currently only says "addon"
<RichEd> will do so ... the CD naming people need finality by Fri
<ogra_cmpc> the iso name will just be hardy-addon-${arch}.iso
<ogra_cmpc> i see no reason to change the filename here
<ogra_cmpc> i was talking about the page headers on releases.u.c and cdimage.u.c
 * RichEd nods
<ogra_cmpc> the thing the before said "classroom server cd" and "educational addon cd"
<ogra_cmpc> s/the/that/
<ogra_cmpc> well, anyway, sonds like ther is not much more
<ogra_cmpc> any other business ?
<stgraber> as I said on #ubuntu-devel, I'll update the QA-Website by Alpha-6 (move the LTSP testcase to Ubuntu Alternate and update the filenames)
<RichEd> just one quick comment about the naming ... and opinions from you guys
<ogra_cmpc> stgraber, thanks a lot
<RichEd> chris put the word "school" into the mix ...
<ogra_cmpc> hmm
<RichEd> i said that that sounded very limited to me compared to education ...
<ogra_cmpc> yeah
<ogra_cmpc> to me too
<stgraber> +1
<RichEd> so his reply was that school to him implied any learning, not just kids
<ogra_cmpc> that would have fitted better with the classroom server cd when we had it
<RichEd> but in my background / culture we speak of school, or college or varsity
<ogra_cmpc> now as an ubuntu addon i dont think we should call it school-something
<ogra_cmpc> well, we also speak about software media
<RichEd> so can i tell him that we, the people, feel that education is preferred over school ?
<ogra_cmpc> for me thats true
<RichEd> so that's ogra for education
<RichEd> stgraber > same for you ?
<stgraber> yep
<RichEd> anyone else yay or nay ?
<ogra_cmpc> school simply doesnt include university
<RichEd> so then it is unanimous for "education" and not "school" in the final naming
<ogra_cmpc> and many areas more where edu software is used
<RichEd> ogra_cmpc: for me i agree ... in some countries, even big people say i'm, off to school
<ogra_cmpc> \even though i still dont get the reason why oreferably edu software is used in governments/municipalities
<stgraber> well, it's probably something that comes from french but "education" looks more like an official/global term than "school"
<RichEd> In SA, we definately differentiate the different levels, even in casual conversation
<ogra_cmpc> they are enterprise offices ....
<RichEd> thanks ... i'm done then for tonight
 * RichEd looks around to see if anyone else has any matters pending or arising
<ogra_cmpc> going once ?
 * ogra_cmpc looks around
<ogra_cmpc> going twice .....
<ogra_cmpc> .
<ogra_cmpc> .
<ogra_cmpc> .
<ogra_cmpc> adjourned
<ogra_cmpc> thanks "all"
<ogra_cmpc> :)
<RichEd> thanks ogra , stgraber
<RichEd> and g'night
<zul> hello
<sommer> hey zul
<soren> Hi!
<kirkland> howdy
<ivoks> hi
<mathiaz> hello everyone
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team
<mathiaz> let's get started for today's meeting !
 * Koon lurks in the background
<jdstrand> hi mathiaz!
<jdstrand> hi ivoks!
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 21:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * nealmcb waves
 * nijaba waves
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
 * ogra_cmpc lurks a bit
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> Previous meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080213
<mathiaz> I think most of the actions listed have been done or will discussed later in the meeting.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Reporting / role of the meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Reporting / role of the meeting
<mathiaz> I've noticed that the last two meetings were long
<mathiaz> more than 1 hour.
<mathiaz> I'd like to keep the meeting under an hour.
<zul> agreed
<mathiaz> Looking through the logs, I think we're spending a lot of time giving status reports
<mathiaz> The reason why I'm leading the meeting in that direction is to get reports from everyone
<mathiaz> to know what's been done in the server team
<mathiaz> so that we have something to put in the monthly report
<mathiaz> It's also a way to keep track of which features have been implemented so that we can put them in the release notes.
<mathiaz> IIRC the IRC meeting of ubuntu-dev ran into the same problem once the team started to grow.
<mathiaz> so I'd like to change how we keep track of what we're doing.
<mathiaz> I'm thinking about sending the agenda whith the reminder of the meeting
<soren> You usually send that out on Tuesdays, right?
<mathiaz> whith a list of points requiring a status report
<mathiaz> soren: yes - one day before the meeting
<sommer>  I was just thinking that maybe instead of doing reports at the meeting we could reply to your meetings notes email when action items are complete/updated
<sommer> or meeting minutes email rather
<ivoks> we should do that before the meeting, cause issues could arise that would need more heads
<nealmcb> the monthly reports show up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<mathiaz> sommer: right - but I'd rather take a more proactive approache and ask people about what they're doing.
<nijaba> I think we could start the meeting with a quick post of the completed action, and see why the ones outstanding are still there...
<sommer> mathiaz: sure, just my thought
<mathiaz> ivoks: agreed. I think that having the agenda in the meeting announcement would help.
<ivoks> but only reports
<mathiaz> Another option is to ask people to put their status report in the agenda wiki page before the meeting
<ivoks> and if someone want to disscuss it, reply to the mail with a request for disscussion
<mathiaz> this is how the ubuntu dev team was doing
<ivoks> it would be bad if mailing list turns into the meeting
<mathiaz> ivoks: correct.
<ivoks> mathiaz: i think that would be much better approach
<ivoks> with the wiki
<sommer> yep, wiki is a better idea :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: that's what the ubuntu dev team used for some time (until it didn't scale any more)
<nijaba> not there yet, I guess...
<mathiaz> nijaba: for the server team, not there.
<soren> ubuntu-dev managed until we reached about 30..
<soren> So some day, maybe :)
<mathiaz> nijaba: but we've already reach the point where doing a round table for status report during a meeting isn't practicle anymore
<nijaba> mathiaz: agreed
<nijaba> and +1 for the wiki proposal
<mathiaz> So - I'll change the meeting annoucement asking people to update a wiki page with the status of their task
<nijaba> we just need to find a volunteer to update the wiki with actions from the previous week
<mathiaz> I'll take care of updating the wiki page and nagging people to give a status update.
<mathiaz> s/updating/coordinating/
<nijaba> mathiaz: \o/
<mathiaz> ACTION: mathiaz to coordinate status reporting via a wiki page.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to coordinate status reporting via a wiki page.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to coordinate status reporting via a wiki page.
 * soren hugs mathiaz 
<soren> Awesome!
 * nijaba hugs mathiaz too
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Mentoring program
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mentoring program
<mathiaz> So I've been thinking about the mentoring program again.
<mathiaz> I've got another proposal - I'd like a really lightweight program.
<mathiaz> To restate, the target population is people that want to contribute to ubuntu but don't know how.
<nealmcb> or don't know how much fun it is :-)
<mathiaz> So I'm throwing the idea of having a guidance counselor rather than having a real mentoring program
<mathiaz> the idea being that potential contributor would get in touch with a member of the ubuntu-server team, they'd figure out how he could help the server team
<mathiaz> according to the user's interests, a simple task would be assigned
<nealmcb> how about sending ambassadors/recruiters to the loco team meetings on irc?
<mathiaz> and once the task has been completed the prospectiv user is out of the guidance program.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: sure - that's another approach.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I'd put that in the recruiting effort task.
<soren> nealmcb: There's a *lot* of LoCo's.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: but I'd rather setup a program to help them getting on board.
<nealmcb> yup - it precedes what you're sketching out
<ivoks> ok, so... one simple task with guidance
<mathiaz> nealmcb: precedes in terms of workflow, but follows in terms of building the program
<ivoks> and after that?
<mathiaz> ivoks: well - it's up to the user to keep contributing.
<mathiaz> ivoks: by the end of the task he should have been in contact with the rest of the team
<nealmcb> mathiaz: yes - having a structure to help new recruits should precede getting recruits.  soren: yeah.  we could start with locos we have some connections with.  E.g. I've made the pitch at my loco
<nealmcb> mathiaz: yes
<mathiaz> ivoks: and should know where to asks questions.
<ivoks> i see your point
<mathiaz> So any thought on this ?
<mathiaz> What could be a good name for the program ?
<soren> nealmcb: I guess that works.
<ivoks> 'Make your self at home'
<soren> 'Make yourself@home' :(
<nealmcb> ivoks: yes - a sense of connection and comfort about asking questions is very helpful
<ivoks> soren: make
<mathiaz> I thought of Guidance Counselor
<nealmcb> soren: it that the singularity approaching nearer?
<soren> ivoks: :)
<nijaba> mathiaz: sounds like Woopy role in Star Treck TNG
<soren> nealmcb: :S
<soren> nijaba: Haha!
<sommer> mathiaz: shouldn't "server" be in there somewhere?
<mathiaz> ok. So I'll send an email to ubuntu-server with this new proposal to get some feedback.
<nealmcb> soren: looks like an alien/evolved smile to me....
<mathiaz> sommer: yes.
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team
<sommer> server woopy?
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to send a proposal to ubuntu-server about the mentoring program
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to send a proposal to ubuntu-server about the mentoring program
<mathiaz> ok - that's all from me about the way the server team works and could grow :)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] bacula status
<MootBot> New Topic:  bacula status
<ivoks> eh...
 * ivoks steps out, in front of the crew, with tears in his eyes...
<soren> nealmcb: That's what I was trying to do, so great! :)
<ivoks> i'm sorry, it took to long, i had to work on some other things in life
<mathiaz> ivoks: are you still working on it ?
<nijaba> ivoks: we know you did your best
<ivoks> but big part is done and i promise new bacula will be uploaded in 3-4 days
<mathiaz> ivoks: we could always to get FF exception
<ivoks> let's say 99% is done
<ivoks> i just wanted to clear this sqlite dilema
<nealmcb> ivoks: you've earned some slack many times over :-)
<soren> I forget... What's the sqlite problem?
<nijaba> ivoks: that should not be a pb for much longer
<ivoks> soren: sqlite binary isn't in main, and -sqlite version depends on it
<zul> uh..fun
<nijaba> soren: but I have been talking with doko about it
<nijaba> and it should not be a real pb
<mathiaz> ivoks: before uploading a new bacula in universe, you may wanna get in touch with the MOTU release team
<ivoks> i've stripped everything else, dbconfig, wxwidgets, qt, libjconv...
<soren> ivoks: What does bacula need anything but the library for?
<nijaba> since the only thing missing is the CLI
<mathiaz> ivoks: to make sure that the changes you're about to do are ok for FF or get a FF exception.
<ivoks> soren: it populates sqlite db with binary
<ivoks> mathiaz: ack
<soren> ivoks: Ah.
<ivoks> soren: or upgrades db
<ivoks> so, any plans to move sqlite to main? :)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks will get in touch with the MOTU release team to get an FF exception before uploading bacula to universe
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks will get in touch with the MOTU release team to get an FF exception before uploading bacula to universe
<mathiaz> ivoks: it's already done.
<mathiaz> ivoks: or will be within a few days.
<ivoks> great
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server Survey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Survey
<nijaba> mathiaz: well, should, once a good look has been given to it
<soren> The source is already in main, so it's usually not a problem to move the binary.
<mathiaz> nijaba: could give a quick update the server survey and this lemon thiggy ?
<nijaba> Ok, so Faulkes and I have been working on this survey
<nijaba> there is a first version running in LimeSurvey
<nijaba> I need volunteers to test it
<zul> remind me again whats LimeSurvey?
<mathiaz> nijaba: what is LimeSurver ?
<nijaba> I already found one bug in Limesurvey on some condition testing
<nijaba> limesurvey.org
<nijaba> a tool to produce and conduct survey
<nijaba> php based, won the Trophee du Libre this year, enterprise category
<mathiaz> nijaba: is this a web service ?
<nijaba> it is a web app
<mathiaz> nijaba: or an application you need a server to run on ?
<mathiaz> nijaba: where will you host the web app ?
<nijaba> it is on www.nijaba.info
<nijaba> but I do not want to open it to public there
<nijaba> so I have to issue accounts to volunteers
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok. So where will you host it when doing the "real" survey ?
<nijaba> discussing this with newz2000 ATM
<nealmcb> I'm a little unclear on the audience for the survey and what it is intended to accomplish
<mathiaz> nijaba: it may be interesting to use this tool in the Ubuntu community as a whole.
<nijaba> nealmcb: the goal is to gather as much feedback as possible from or user comunity in order to know what they are expecting from us
<nijaba> mathiaz: agreed
<nealmcb> and e.g. will the results be generally available, or just to the team, or what
<nijaba> nealmcb: I was thinking to follow the same path as alfresco did, but needs to be discussed a bit
<nijaba> nealmcb: not sure if all answers should be made public
<nealmcb> alfresco?
<nijaba> nealmcb: http://www.alfresco.com/community/barometer/
<nealmcb> and how to get a good sampling of likely respondents
<nijaba> that will need some publicity...
<nijaba> I mean posting in forum, ml, etc...
<nealmcb> interesting link - thanks
<mathiaz> nijaba: right.
<nealmcb> e.g. covering both home/individual users, nonprofits, enterprises, etc
<mathiaz> So once you've setup a test instance you need to some volunteers to test the survey
<mathiaz> and the web app
<nijaba> it is already up
<nijaba> I am just waiting for 1 bug fix ATM
<mathiaz> nijaba: so you're just looking for volunteers ?
<nijaba> (actually trying to fix it myself)
<nijaba> mathiaz: pretty much
 * sommer volunteers for survey testing
<mathiaz> nijaba: they should contact via email ?
<nijaba> that would be the best way
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok.
<mathiaz> Let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Forums activity
<MootBot> New Topic:  Forums activity
<mathiaz> faulkes- is not available to join the meeting.
<mathiaz> He sent me an email stating that the sticky post in the Server Forum has been posted.
<mathiaz> And he is working with nijaba on the survey.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Documentation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Documentation
<mathiaz> sommer: I've seen some discussion on the server guide.
<nealmcb> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7
<sommer> yep, mostly my misunderstanding about which directory we're developing in going forward
<mathiaz> I haven't answered on the thread, but it'd make sense to only have one branch to maintain the server guide
<nijaba> mathiaz: yes, it would.
<sommer> mathiaz: agreed
<nijaba> The MOTD feature request is surfacing again as well
<sommer> was there any decision on that?
<mathiaz> yes - The other problem is to install the serverguide on an ubuntu-server
<sommer> I think the instruction on viewing the docs from console is the right approach
<mathiaz> there isn't any ubuntu-server seed at the moment.
<mathiaz> sommer: agreed. but we need to install the serverguide on ubuntu-server
<sommer> mathiaz: sure, is it a size issue?
<mathiaz> sommer: more a seed issue I think.
<nijaba> so we should ask for a server-install and server-supported seeds
<nijaba> server-install for default install
<nijaba> server-supported to sort which package in supported are there because of server and supported for 5y
<mathiaz> nijaba: right - server-supported is server-ship I think.
<nijaba> mathiaz: not in cjwatson point of view, AFAIK
<mathiaz> the default install for ubuntu-server is the ubuntu-standard seed.
<nealmcb> Interesting sticky server post from last year about the ubuntu "mindset" for server security (vs the "windows mindset"), might inspire some documentation (or be worth improving on - I haven't read it yet): http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=510812
<mathiaz> nijaba: it may worth to review the seed state then. I think he started to reorganize them.
<nijaba> mathiaz: I think so too
<sommer> nealmcb: cool, I'll take a look
<mathiaz> So to keep things moving - I won't do the Roadmap review.
<nealmcb> sommer: :-)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<sommer> ebox status?
<nealmcb> any more ebox updates?
<zul> just one eBox is looking better for Universe
<mathiaz> There is the Ubuntu Developer Week going on the whole week.
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek
<nealmcb> zul: I.e. "only for universe"? or "nearly ready to push to universe"?
<nijaba> Great session by Soren yesterday
<soren> \o/
 * nealmcb missed it - oops!  busy life....
<zul> nealmcb: almost ready to push to universe have to get a second pair of eyes to look at it first
<nealmcb> zul: great - thanks!
<nijaba> zul: you'll have plenty of eyes next week I guess :)
<zul> oh I will, I can corner them as well :)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<mathiaz> same time, same place ?
<nijaba> o/
<ivoks> ack
<sommer> o//
<ivoks> _o/
 * nijaba thinks that sommer tries to cheat
<mathiaz> Ok - granted. Thanks all for coming.
<sommer> it's my happy pose
<nijaba> :)
<ogra_cmpc> nijaba, he's clapping hands
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:01.
<ivoks> another one longer than 1 hour :D
<soren> \m/
<nijaba> thanks *
<sommer> later all
<nxvl_work> oh i'm late again
<nealmcb> sommer: no - it is the backslash that you need two of:  \\o
<nealmcb> :-)
<sommer> nealmcb: heh... but I'm right handed
<nealmcb> and I'm lookng at you and that is your right hand :-)
<sommer> :-)
<nealmcb> smiles - always fun.  later!
<isaac> .oart
<ivoks> see you
<cjwatson> nijaba,mathiaz: the reason why it doesn't work to just say that server-ship == server support is that it simply isn't true. There's server-type stuff in supported that we don't put on the CD. Likewise there's desktop-type stuff in supported that we don't put on the desktop or alternate CDs. The problem at the moment is that there is no straightforward way for us to divide the stuff up that's in supported but in neither deskto
<soren> cjwatson: You got cut off at "in neither deskt"
<nijaba> cjwatson: thanks for clarifying this
<cjwatson> in neither desktop nor server.
<cjwatson> but yes it may be an issue that the default server install is identical to standard. perhaps ... I'd like you guys to think hard before changing that and not do it just 'cos, but we're happy to change that if instructed
<cjwatson> if it's just for documentation, an alternative is to unpack that documentation on the CD somewhere
<mathiaz> cjwatson: the idea is to also the serveguide package installed by default during a server installaion.
<nijaba> cjwatson: 2 issues: add packages on CD that would be installed by default is one
<nijaba> cjwatson: second is too be able to sort supported packages that are not on CD between server and desktop
<nijaba> hence my proposal to have server-supported
<nijaba> cjwatson: I can also start working on the sorting of supported if that would help
<cjwatson> mathiaz: if it's just that documentation package, I think it might be better off just unpacked on the CD. If it's more than that, that's where I'm asking that you guys think hard because I know traditionally the rationale was that a server install should be pretty minimal by default.
<cjwatson> nijaba: it is not yet obvious to me whether server ought to be defined inclusively or exclusively
<cjwatson> nijaba: that is, it may be that it is easier to work on a desktop-supported and say that server is everything else
<cjwatson> we clearly have to have one of them be "everything else"
<nijaba> cjwatson: might be
<mathiaz> cjwatson: the only package that we'd like to get installed by default is the serverguide documentation.
<nijaba> cjwatson: but if it help for me to look at what server needs out of supported, let me know
<mathiaz> cjwatson: if this can be done by unpacking it on the CD it'd be great.
<mathiaz> cjwatson: adding a seed just for one package doesn't make sense.
<cjwatson> mathiaz: by which I mean, leave the CD in and browse it with w3m
<cjwatson> or equivalent
<cjwatson> we do that for the installation guide, although admittedly there's a better and more obvious rationale there
<nijaba> cjwatson: not that easy, lots of server deployed without physocal CD
<mathiaz> cjwatson: ah... It'd be combined with a motd pointing to the server guide
<cjwatson> yeah, my concern is a seed and supporting infrastructure for a single package
<nijaba> what about a task that's selected by default?
<cjwatson> nijaba: the mechanism is not a problem. I know how to do it.
<cjwatson> (I implemented 90% of this infrastructure)
<mathiaz> OTOH installing the serverguide would contradict the principle of having a minimal install
<cjwatson> (actually that's probably not fair, Scott did a chunk of it before me, but still :-) )
<cjwatson> so I just want to make sure that you guys have thought about it
<mathiaz> I can see server administrator complaining that this a waste of space and having the serverguide on a web server in a production environment doesn't make sense.
<cjwatson> if it's what you want, then we can do it
<mathiaz> cjwatson: right. I'm still not 100% convinced that we should do this (see my comment above). But at least we know we can do it technically.
<nijaba> I'd vote for default tasksel, so one can avoid installing in automated deployments
<cjwatson> nijaba: (FYI it's not currently possible to have a task that's selected by default and still have the question asked; however this is a bug that we should fix for other reasons too)
<mathiaz> cjwatson: thanks for the input.
<cjwatson> (at least not by preseeding; standard is hacked in explicitly)
<cjwatson> if you decide you want it done, file a bug on the ubuntu-cdimage project and we'll make it happen
<nijaba> cjwatson: is tis bug teacked somewhere?
<nijaba> I meant *Tracked
<cjwatson> nijaba: I think it may only be in my head, though I thought the ubuntustudio guys had a bug about it somewhere
<nijaba> mathiaz: I think we should discuss and propose a solution during sprint next week
<mathiaz> nijaba: yes.
<cjwatson> but, that's not really your problem, it's an implementation detail
<nijaba> cjwatson: more on this next week.  Thanks a lot for your input
<cjwatson> no problem
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<Riddell> are people here for a meeting?
<nosrednaekim> is there anything to meet about?
<coreymon77> oh come on
<Riddell> nothing up on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<coreymon77> i finally make it and then there is nothing?
<Riddell> except nosrednaekim membership
<seele> yepper
<coreymon77> i just cant win can i?
<Riddell> coreymon77: got any agenda items?
<coreymon77> not really
<Riddell> seele: is that an agenda item?
<coreymon77> the reason i wanted to come is because i wanted to know what we talk about
<nosrednaekim> ha... i'll remove myself from the agenda item
<seele> Riddell: no.. i was answering "here" for a meeting :)
<coreymon77> man, i really just cant win
<coreymon77> :P
<Riddell> oh, anyone want to write the team report?
 * nosrednaekim thinks up a topic real fast...... are we putting Koffice2 instead of Open office on the kde4 CD?
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: Koffice2 won't be ready in time
<coreymon77> umm
<Riddell> they don't want alphas or betas going into general use I believe
<nosrednaekim> ah.. ok
<coreymon77> anyone know when kde4 konv will be ready, im waiting for it so that it can be ported to mac
<nosrednaekim> coreymon77 Â» uhh I'm not sure if anyone is even working on it
<coreymon77> wow, this is gonna take a while
<seele> Riddell: is koffice2 still schedules for July for 4.1?
<Riddell> seele: april or may time I believe
<coreymon77> oh well, i guess ill have to stick with x11.app
<Riddell> so we could include it if we did a KDE 4.1 Kubuntu release
<coreymon77> havent we already done so?
<coreymon77> oh no
<coreymon77> thats 4.0.1 isnt it?
<Riddell> coreymon77: only kexi and krita, and that's when we have spce
<Riddell> yes
<coreymon77> hmm
<coreymon77> one thing should be worked on
<coreymon77> kde4's ability on lower resolution monitors
<coreymon77> i can barely do anything on my dell box
<Riddell> meaning interfaces which don't fit?
<coreymon77> yup
<coreymon77> everything is squished
<coreymon77> taskbar is tiny, desktop holds nothing
<coreymon77> etc
<Riddell> that's an upstream issue essentially.  it is important though, especially with olpc/eeepc machines coming out
<coreymon77> and this is with a 1024x768 monitor
<coreymon77> nothing fits
<Riddell> that's what I use
<Riddell> works for me
<coreymon77> doesnt seem to for mine
<coreymon77> and with anything smaller that that
<coreymon77> than that*
<coreymon77> i cant imagine
<nosrednaekim> yeah, its not too bad on my 800 tall monitor.
<coreymon77> not too bad is not good enough
<coreymon77> this is kde4, this is what everyone has been waiting for
<apachelogger_> correction, this is KDE 4.0.x
<nosrednaekim> Riddell Â» we are in feature freeze? does that mean if I wanted to add a feature to the compiz-configurator, I couldn't?
<coreymon77> and with small and light computers/lappys gaining popularity
<coreymon77> thats a problem
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: it would need an exception from the release team.  which includes me
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: oh, did you add a .desktop file and a main inclusion report?
<nosrednaekim> Riddell Â» neither.... what is a main inclusion report? a description?
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: it needs a main inclusion report to get into main
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuMainInclusionQueue
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/MainInclusionProcess
<nosrednaekim> ok
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: and it needs a .desktop file to get into the menu
<nosrednaekim> yeah I can do that. i'll just copy some other apps' :)
<coreymon77> so ya, the poor lower resolution compatability is a slight problem
<Riddell> coreymon77: my heart is with you but you need to complain/fix it upstream
<coreymon77> okay
<coreymon77> so, what else?
<Riddell> noone volunteered to write the team report :)
<Riddell> testers needed for alpha candidates (but probably right now)
<coreymon77> i think its dinner time for me now
<iRon> Riddell: could i join kubuntu-members team?
<nosrednaekim> I can write the team report I guess
<coreymon77> hmm
<coreymon77> seems we do have a agenda topic
<coreymon77> Riddell: iRon wants membership
<Riddell> iRon: do you have a wiki page?
<iRon> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/EugeneTretyak
<Riddell> iRon: I don't think we have any other council members here just now but they can read the logs and vote later
<nosrednaekim> Riddell Â» is there a template for team reports?
<coreymon77> anyways, dinner time
<coreymon77> ill be back later
<apachelogger_> coreymon77: enjoy
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: just bullet points on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/TeamReports/February2008
<Riddell> iRon: you forgot kaffeine codec install on the wiki page
<Riddell> iRon: why do you like Kubuntu?
<iRon> Riddell: kaffeine is not my
<Riddell> hmm, it was Sergey says the changelog, my mistake
<Riddell> iRon: was it the tutorial day that brought you our way?
<iRon> I've used Kubuntu before.. but tutorial day pushed me to contribution in kubuntu
<Hobbsee> oh, meeting?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: seems so, got questions for iRon?
<Riddell> iRon: why do you like Kubuntu?
<iRon> I love KDE.. and Kubuntu is the best KDE distro with great community
<Hobbsee> wiki.kubuntu.org/EugeneTretyak
 * Hobbsee stomps on putty
<yuriy> hi. meeting/no meeting?
<apachelogger_> meeting
<Riddell> seems to be one
<apachelogger_> not very much talking going on though ;-)
<seele> lol
 * seele loves Riddell sarcasm
<nosrednaekim> ah.... wish I had a passport :)
<Riddell> apachelogger_: think of something to ask iRon!
<neversfelde> Riddell: what testing with the alpha CDs is needed?
<apachelogger_> aye
<apachelogger_> iRon: what, in your opion, best qualifies you to become a kubuntu memeber?
<iRon> apachelogger_: I'm a very good programmer.. ;) so I could contribute alot of features in distro
<Riddell> iRon: there is an advert on tv here which claims that Ukranians eat pig fat in chocolate, is this true or is it a slur on your good nation by silly English people?
 * apachelogger_ likes good programmers
<iRon> :))
<Riddell> that must mean it is true!
<seele> oh ew
<iRon> Riddell: yes we have a "bacon in cholocate"
 * yuriy tries to remember what it's called
 * nosrednaekim does not think pig-fat eating people should become members...
<nosrednaekim> ^_^
<apachelogger_> iRon: whom would you bug to a) get a patch as soon as possible in main package and b) get a patch as soon as possible in a universe package?
<nosrednaekim> Riddell Â» reading the main inclusion request page...... seems alot of them are packaging related
<iRon> apachelogger_: a) LP b) upstream ?
<apachelogger_> iRon: any specific persons you would poke to make things faster?
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: it's entirely packaging related.  you are requesting to have the package moved to main (after a review of the source)
<apachelogger_> iRon: imagine it's a patch for a uber major security issue
<iRon> apachelogger_: then i could email to original app developer
<nosrednaekim> Riddell Â» but I know nothing about packaging..... guess I'll learn :)
<Riddell> apachelogger_: to be fair, iRon hasn't done any packaging
<Riddell> but enough grilling
<Riddell> I vote +1 for top code contributions
<Riddell> Hobbsee?
<apachelogger_> that question was more about general understanding of the contirubtion process :)
<apachelogger_> I say get him in :D
<Hobbsee> +1 for the neat work
 * apachelogger_ is totally looking foward to PolicyKit
<nosrednaekim> uhh have to go do some stuff, I'll talk to later about that stuff Riddell
<neversfelde> if there are no other agenda points, is it possible that I candidate for kubuntu membership, too?
<apachelogger_> neversfelde: do you have a wiki page?
<Riddell> iRon: we'll need to wait for another council member to come along and read the logs but it's looking promising, thanks for applying
<iRon> Riddell: thanks!
<neversfelde> yes, but it is a little bit out of date
<neversfelde> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ChristianMangold#preview
<neversfelde> i did not plan to go for membership this day, but I saw there is a meeting
 * emonkey had the same thought as neversfelde just in the same second but it don't need to be today. :)
<apachelogger_> Riddell: I think we can grill neversfelde as well
<Riddell> apachelogger_: lets
<Riddell> neversfelde: what is jurisprudence?
<apachelogger_> emonkey: got a wiki page?
<neversfelde> I am a trainee lawyer, isn't jurisprudence the right word for that
<emonkey> apachelogger_, of course: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Emonkey
<yuriy> to be recognized as a kubuntu contributor, you need to be given a vocabulary test!
<apachelogger_> yups
<apachelogger_> that is really the worst about it
<neversfelde> School is far away ;)
<apachelogger_> neversfelde: can you please explain "some basic packaging"
<Riddell> neversfelde: could well be, it's just a word from only the legal field
<neversfelde> Riddell: It is hard to explain what I am doing
<Riddell> neversfelde: do you know if anyone from Kubuntu is going to Chemnitzer Linux-Tage?
<neversfelde> I got the first exam, but I have to pass a practical one in July this year
<neversfelde> after that I could be a judge or a full lawyer in germay, if I want to be
<apachelogger_> hm partical exam = win a case?
<nixternal> umm, did I miss something here or what?
<seele> neversfelde: what's your specialty (if you have one)
<apachelogger_> nixternal: we are meeting
<nixternal> nobody invited me :(
<Riddell> nixternal: read the logs for iRon and vote
 * yuriy forgot "meeting" was a verb for a second
<nixternal> will do Riddell
<emonkey> Riddell, there will be 4 kubuntu-de.org guys in Chemnitz
<apachelogger_> try #2
<apachelogger_> neversfelde: can you please explain "some basic packaging"
<Riddell> emonkey: excellent
<neversfelde> seele: not yet, but I do have an affinity to IT law
<neversfelde> of course
<seele> :)
<neversfelde> apachelogger_: no practical case in exam, I have to do several before and in exam there are several written tests
 * apachelogger_ shudders
<neversfelde> apachelogger_: I learned some basics, when I backported some packgages for czessis repo
<neversfelde> but I must confess it is very basic, I'd love to learn more, when I do have mor time again
<Riddell> neversfelde: does Czessi still have a repo?  and can those packages not go into ubuntu?
<apachelogger_> neversfelde: so, you are planing on package contributions?
<nixternal> iRon and Riddell: I will only give a +1 if iRon sends me some of that "bacon in chocolate"....thinking about it makes me fat!
<nixternal> Riddell and iRon: +1 from me :)
<Riddell> iRon: congratulations!
<apachelogger_> Riddell: it's pretty dead these days, I try to get everything into universe rather than czessi's repo
<nixternal> congrats iRon! welcome to the team
<neversfelde> Riddell: He does, but there seems to be not enough time alongside his several other contributions
<apachelogger_> iRon: congrats
<seele> sigh, what an awful thing to do to chocolate :P
<apachelogger_> hehe
<neversfelde> and it is always planned to get packages in ubuntu, as far as I know
<iRon> Thanks everybody!
<neversfelde> apachelogger_: yes, but I am not a programmer
<neversfelde> my focus is on support, especially in the german speaking forum
<Riddell> neversfelde: how busy are the german forums?
<nixternal> Riddell: did you get my patch for Ubiquity? and if so, does it look OK to you?
<Riddell> nixternal: yes thanks, not looked at it yet
<nixternal> ooh, speaking of kubuntu-de, we (I) need to get working on release notes ahead of time so other teams can translate
<Riddell> Hobbsee: any questions for neversfelde?
<neversfelde> Riddell: not bad, depends on the time after an ubuntu release
<neversfelde> I think round about 30 posts average a day
<apachelogger_> neversfelde: do you think it is important for kubuntu to support kubuntu focused LoCos better? or is it just as good to have them as part of an ubuntu LoCo?
<nixternal> oh man, another lawyer-in-training?
 * nixternal thinks Ubuntu is gearing up to sue the world with all of the lawyers around here :p
<emonkey> 50 posts says the stat
<apachelogger_> nixternal: ain't a bad thing, is it? :P
<emonkey> 7000 hits per day
<nixternal> neversfelde: I take it you are going for membership right now?
<apachelogger_> nixternal: yes
<nixternal> groovy
 * nixternal looks for a wiki and lp page
<apachelogger_> nixternal: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ChristianMangold
<apachelogger_> lp is linked
<neversfelde> apachelogger_: nice topic :). I think there should be Kubuntu Locos beneath Ubuntu Locos, ofcourse they should work together as much as possible. I think we practice this in germany on events very well.
<neversfelde> nixternal: another?
<yuriy> clever question apachelogger_
<Riddell> any germans able to advocate neversfelde?
<apachelogger_> neversfelde: same question as for iRon - what, in your opion, best qualifies you to become a kubuntu memeber?
<nixternal> neversfelde: are the Ubuntu and Kubuntu teams in Germany separated?
<neversfelde> apachelogger_: my work in support for kubuntu, especially in the forum.
<neversfelde> nixternal: they are
<nixternal> hrmm, why is that? why not just a generalize Ubuntu LoCo team that supports everything *buntu?
<emonkey> nixternal, yes but we're looking for cooperation if it's make sense
<nixternal> gnome people don't cooperate :p
<nixternal> just kidding people! :)
<neversfelde> I do not know if this is good or bad, I want to give my best for Ubuntu and especially for KDE and so my first home was kubuntu.de.
<apachelogger_> Riddell: neversfelde arbeitet wie ein wahnsinniger, und weiÃ dabei auch noch was er macht, IMHO trÃ¤gt er als teil von kubuntu-de stark zur prÃ¤senz von kubuntu in deutschland bei :P
<Riddell> nixternal: their handling of the kubuntu-de.org domain did not endear me to them :(
<emonkey> apachelogger_, riddel does not understand german afaik ;)
<Riddell> apachelogger_: pardon?
<apachelogger_> [00:53] <Riddell> any germans able to advocate neversfelde?
<apachelogger_> I just thought you want it in german as well :P
<Riddell> ah :)
<nixternal> Riddell: ahhh, I knew there was something...honestly, I like the fact of Germany having a Kubuntu team, I would like to see Kubuntu LoCos, because I have witnessed LoCo teams in the US pushing Ubuntu and Ubuntu only
<neversfelde> nixternal: I cannot explain that in a few words, especially in english. I think we should work together as good as possible and look what the future brings.
<nixternal> neversfelde: if you could work in any one area of Kubuntu right now, what area would that be? which do you find the most intriguing?
<Riddell> "<apachelogger_> Riddell: neversfelde works as a  Mad, and also still knows what he does
<Riddell> that sounds good
<apachelogger_> :D
<apachelogger_> Advocate: neversfelde isn't avoiding work, and for some reason he actually also knows what he is doing, IMHO is he, as part of kubuntu-de, responsible for the really strong presence of Kubuntu in Germany
<neversfelde> nixternal: I want to learn packaging next, but I do not want to leave the support, so I have to see, how long it takes
<apachelogger_> +1 for his support and promotion work
<Riddell> neversfelde: do you have the kubuntu exhibition poster stand?
<emonkey> Riddell, I think it's still by Czessi ...
<nixternal> if so, take a picture of it...I need to get one for an upcoming conference
<neversfelde> Riddell: yes it is
<Riddell> nixternal: kwwii has the artwork
<nixternal> groovy
<nixternal> I need a KDE one too...I am representing both actually
<Riddell> +1 from me for top kubuntu-de contributions
<yuriy> nixternal: speaking of which, i'll probably be doing a kde4 presentation at our LoCo installfest this saturday, so i'm up for suggestions
<Riddell> Hobbsee?
<neversfelde> I talked to Czessi yesterday about sending it to UDS
<nixternal> +1 here
<yuriy> nixternal: wrt LoCo's promoting kubuntu
<nixternal> k
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-02-21
 * nixternal wonders how much it costs to have a couple of nice posters/stands made up
<Riddell> hmm, Hobbsee's fallen asleep
<nixternal> hehe
<apachelogger_> apparently
<Riddell> emonkey: are you going for membership?
<coreymon77> hi
<coreymon77> im back
<apachelogger_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Emonkey
<nixternal> Riddell: her gnome locked up probably :)
<apachelogger_> lol
<emonkey> Riddell, It would be cool
<emonkey> nixternal, here is a photo of the poster http://www.kubuntu-de.org/bilder/events/linuxtag-2007
<coreymon77> emonkey: wow! impressive
<Riddell> emonkey: why do you like Kubuntu?
<nixternal> gah, stupid LP
<nixternal> emonkey: thanks!
<neversfelde> Riddell: I think we will buy another one. It is to expensive to send it back and forth. Do youn need it in Prague?
<nixternal> emonkey: that would be a great picture, but you have some big silly looking dude in it wearing an amarok t-shirt..wonder who that could be? :)
<emonkey> Riddell, because it was the distro which has freed me from windows and I like KDE. I use it on every pc an laptop I own. It's just the best OS that I've ever seen.
 * apachelogger_ checks that pic
<emonkey> nixternal, lol
<coreymon77> Riddell: i say give it to him, if my vote makes any difference
<nixternal> emonkey: if there was one area in Kubuntu that you could work right now, which would it be and why?
<apachelogger_> indeed, who's that handsome guy?
<nixternal> I didn't see me in that pic
<apachelogger_> pfft
<emonkey> nixternal, I think It's the best if I do every time as much as possible in the area where it's possible to do something.
<nixternal> groovy
<emonkey> tomorrow I'll have my first C++ lesson, maybe  I can do some coing stuff in future ... Would be cool too.
<nixternal> damn, you beat me to the future question :)
<emonkey> s/coing/coding/
<apachelogger_> emonkey: you get employed to work on kubuntu what would you want to do most of the time?
<emonkey> I really like to be on booths and I want to be on them in future too.
<Riddell> anyone able to advocate emonkey?  neversfelde?
 * Nightrose cheers for emonkey :)   \o/
<coreymon77> Riddell: ive seen neversfelde around on the #kubuntu channel alot
<emonkey> apachelogger_, good question, I think maybe to enhance all the little things which still aren't perfect.
<coreymon77> emonkey: such as?
<nixternal> emonkey: technical wise, are there any areas involved with Kubuntu development that currently interests you? and if so, are you working in those areas and if not, what are your plans in order to get involved into those areas?
<neversfelde> emonkey is responsible that the forum is still alived.
<emonkey> coreymon77, PIM
<coreymon77> emonkey: okay
 * neversfelde cheers for emonkey
<coreymon77> emonkey: btw, i may have missed it from before, but what is the reason that you want membership in the first place?
 * apachelogger_ throws his sonic screwdriver at neversfelde
<emonkey> nixternal, I don't know if my coding skill will ever be good enough but if it's possible, I would love to get into developement. The first would be to patch some things an create some diffs and things like that.
<emonkey> coreymon77, I'm already ubuntu member but primarly I'm Kubuntu and it would be cool to be a part of it. It' just a step to make something in the direction I want to go.
<coreymon77> oh
<coreymon77> okay
<apachelogger_> emonkey: what, in your opinion, makes kubuntu different from other KDE based distros?
<coreymon77> neversfelde: and you?
<emonkey> apachelogger_, one importent point: it's debian based but more actual then etch and more actual then sid
<nixternal> emonkey: you have obviously been around for a while, my final questions is...what took you so long to consider membership?
<neversfelde> coreymon77: I want to strengthen my attachment to kubuntu and I want to contribute also in the international community
<emonkey> nixternal, ay .. ahm ... because it was nothing which I needed to do the work Ive done till now. But I thought about it for a long time.
<Riddell> +1 to emonkey for keeping kubuntu-de alive
<emonkey> Today it was a good moment and I thought I should risk it. :)
<Riddell> Hobbsee, awake?
<coreymon77> i like him too
<nixternal> +1 here
<Hobbsee> bwah?
<coreymon77> if my opinion/vote counts at all
<Hobbsee> er, i'm awake, can i vote later?
<nixternal> Hobbsee: you owe 2 votes, 1 for neversfelde and 1 for emonkey
<seele> have there been applicants who have been rejected?
<nixternal> yup
<coreymon77> seele: yup
<nixternal> couple of years ago, but yes :)
<apachelogger_> lol
<coreymon77> seele: i was my first time, when i did it through ubuntu
<seele> kubuntu has more love
<Hobbsee> neversfelde: +1, emonkey shouldn't have even needed to come thru here due to his ubuntu-membership
<Hobbsee> that being said, +1 to him too
<seele> woo.. were stealing ubunteros?  sweet
<Riddell> emonkey: congratulations!
<coreymon77> once again, if my vote counts, i say +1 to both of them
<coreymon77> congrats!
<emonkey> thank you all very much :)
<neversfelde> thank you
<coreymon77> emonkey: you deserve it
<coreymon77> neversfelde: you too
<apachelogger_> Riddell: I think we should end the meeting and start partying in #kubuntu-devel
<yuriy> congrats new members
<Riddell> i think I should go to bed :)
<Riddell> anyone going to FOSDEM?
<coreymon77> yay!
<apachelogger_> <-- going to FOSDEM, somehow
<nixternal> emonkey: congrats!!!
<Nightrose> <------- FOSDEM
<Nightrose> ;-)
<emonkey> nixternal, thank you :)
<neversfelde> would like to, but exam is in july
<coreymon77> emonkey: yay!
<Riddell> see you for beer on friday
<Riddell> thanks all
<Riddell> goodnight friends
<apachelogger_> nini
<Nightrose> nini Riddell
<coreymon77> i take it the meeting is over huh?
<neversfelde> n8 Riddell
<coreymon77> okay then
<Hobbsee> yes
<coreymon77> this meeting is officially called to a close
 * coreymon77 slams the gavel down on the woof
<coreymon77> wood*
<coreymon77> just for the fun og it
<coreymon77> of*
<bmk789> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team
<bmk789> @schedule EST
<ubotu> Schedule for EST: 21 Feb 09:00: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 15:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 02:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 07:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 16:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 09:00: Desktop Team
<effie_jayx> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 12:50:55 - Next meeting: Desktop Team in 1 hour 9 minutes
<effie_jayx> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team
<effie_jayx> @schedule | caracas
<effie_jayx> @schedule | America/Caracas
<stgraber> effie_jayx: try without the |
<effie_jayx> @schedule | Caracas
<effie_jayx> stgraber,  ahhh
<effie_jayx> @schedule  caracas
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Caracas: 21 Feb 10:00: Desktop Team | 21 Feb 16:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 03:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 08:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 17:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 10:00: Desktop Team
<ubuntuwestbengal> is there anyone here from the community council??
<ubuntuwestbengal> please tell me?
<posingaspopular> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 13:35:20 - Next meeting: Desktop Team in 24 minutes
<pitti> hi
<emgent> hi pitti :)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<coolbhavi> Hi <posingaspopular>
<Keybuk> Hello
<MacSlow> greetings
<seb128> hey
<Keybuk> Let's get started
<Keybuk> We have no outstanding actions from previous meetings
<Keybuk> (\o/)
<Keybuk> so first agenda item: 5-A-Day
<Keybuk> Jono and his team have asked me to remind you all about 5-A-Day
<MacSlow> I know... but I was only able to fix one (part of a spec) :/
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day
<pitti> seb128 won't have any problem with touching 5 bugs :-P
<Keybuk> with a couple of exceptions (kwwii - artist & MacSlow - working on some 8.10 pieces already), you should all be participating in this
<seb128> pitti: I try doing 5-An-Hour ;-)
<kwwii> art bugs are usually quite complicated and/or time consuming
<kwwii> whew :-)
<seb128> want to join? :-p
<MacSlow> hm... I understood 5-a-day to be "fix 5 bugs a day"
<seb128> MacSlow: you didn't read the wiki page?
<pitti> well, 'touch'
<MacSlow> seb128, you nasty show-off ;)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: touch five bugs, not necessarily fix
<pitti> like triage, or close, or something
<pitti> fixing 5 bugs a day is indeed a challenge, unless you only look for trivial ones
<MacSlow> pitti, no... I would always pick (unintentionally) the gory stuff :)
<pitti> did I fall off the channel, or is it just quiet?
 * MacSlow wonders too
<Keybuk> just went quiet :-)
<Keybuk> ok, no objections to 5-a-day
<Keybuk> good
<Keybuk> did I miss any agenda items from activity summaries?
<MacSlow> not in my case
<Keybuk> kwwii: Mirco is needing some icons
<seb128> on a topic similar to 5 a day, there is the monthly report
<tedg> No.
<Keybuk> but hasn't had any response from the art team
<MacSlow> just wondering if it's ok if I draw the missing three/two icons for the wncklet-tooltip myself... sofar I've got no reply on the ubuntu-art list to my request
<Keybuk> any chance you could help with that?
<kwwii> Keybuk: right, I'll take care of it if nobody else steps up
<Keybuk> thanks
<Keybuk> seb128: monthly report?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, kwwii tried already... but suggested I ask on the art-list directly
<MacSlow> kwwii, ah well ok
<seb128> Keybuk: yes, the thing for jono
<kwwii> MacSlow: if nobody responds by monday I'll take care of it
<MacSlow> kwwii, I assume you've seen my first try at helping with finding usable metaphors for it.
<Keybuk> seb128: I don't know that one?
<kwwii> MacSlow: yepp, I saw that
<lool> Keybuk: team activity summary
<lool> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<MacSlow> kwwii, and only two are needed "Scale" and "Expo"... since "Zoom" is usually never exposed on a keybinding but a "mouse-"binding
<lool> (IIUC)
<kwwii> MacSlow: even better :-)
<seb128> Keybuk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReportingPage
<Keybuk> seb128: that seems to be somewhere between the weekly reports we send out from these meetings
<Keybuk> and the monthly reports I give to Claire for the Canonical Monthly Report :-/
<seb128> well, that's what the community team is doing for a few months
<Keybuk> what kind of thing have you put in there in the past?
<Keybuk> I guess your question is how should we fill that in now? :p
<seb128> well
<seb128> I've been bad at filling it as you can see
<seb128> I wrote an "The team has actively worked on the Debian merges and updating GNOME to 2.21.2" once there
<seb128> and that's about it
<seb128> but jono send mails every month about that
<Keybuk> heh
<ubuntuwestbengal> is there anyone here from the community council?
<seb128> and I would encourage other people to write things there if they want ;-)
<Riddell> the mobile team is keen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/February2008
<pitti> -ETOOMANYREPORTS
<MacSlow> Keybuk, but that looks like the stuff you do sum up every week of the activity-reports
<ubuntuwestbengal> or anyone else who i can talk to regarding approval for a Loco team?
<seb128> pitti: my feeling too
<Keybuk> jono: hi
<jono> hey
<MacSlow> ubuntuwestbengal, I think you would have to talk with jono
<seb128> speaking about jono ;-)
<Keybuk> so we're discussing the community team reporting page
<ubuntuwestbengal> Mr Bacon?
<MacSlow> ah... speaking of the devil.... hm... community-angel :)
<lool> Riddell: I just sent an email to Ian complaining a little about the way he copy pastes reports into that page
<ubuntuwestbengal> this is Parthsarathi Trivedi here from Ubuntu West Bengal
<MacSlow> jono, hi there
<seb128> ubuntuwestbengal: we are in the middle of a meeting right now, you might want to move that to query?
<jono> what about the reporting page?
<lool> For example he copy pasted my weekly mobile report into "Hildon desktop" which I didn't touch this week with things like "I booked tickets for Prague" -- my name doesn't appear anywhere, this is complete gibberish and nobdoy would care about this in the monthly report anyway
<Keybuk> jono: so the desktop team has these weekly meetings
<jono> Keybuk: right
<Keybuk> from which I send out a meeting notes, which include the team member's activity summaries for that week
<MacSlow> ubuntuwestbengal, better address jono with his nick so he does not miss any of you remarks you point to him
<Keybuk> and those go on the desktopteam bit of the wiki
<Keybuk> we also have the monthly report we send to claire
<Keybuk> where within these does the monthly community team reporting fit? :)
<jono> yep
<jono> the primary aim of the monthy community report is to summarise what that team has been working on
<pitti> who's the target audience for the monthly wiki reports?
<jono> so maybe that would be taking key points from activity summaries
<pitti> i. e. what kind of language shuold appear there?
<MacSlow> pitti, yeah... I thought that's for the community anyway
<jono> pitti: it is designed for any ubuntu contributor to get a picture of what is going on across the communityu
<MacSlow> pitti, I mean the stuff scott sums up every week
<jono> so it is expected that reasonably technical people will read it
<seb128> my understanding is that we should have interesting changes there, ie: new gnome version, switched to policykit, etc
<jono> seb128: indeed
<jono> it would useful to not have too much detail, but key things the team has worked on
<Keybuk> jono: it strikes me that the same general points could go into the Canonical Monthly Report too
<jono> what I recommend in the process is that when I key item occurs, it is noted on a team reporting page for the team, and then once a month, those bullet points are moved to the main page
<jono> Keybuk: abolsutely
<jono> erm
<jono> absolutely
<Keybuk> which is due tomorrow ;)
<jono> heh
<Keybuk> as well
<jono> Keybuk: :)
<jono> Keybuk: indeed, much of this can be shared
<seb128> ok, so Keybuk will copy the canonical monthly report on the wiki and we are done with this one? ;-)
<Keybuk> so I guess we need to be able to highlight the key things the team has done
<MacSlow> seb128, sounds eays :)
<jono> sounds good :)
<Keybuk> I don't mind scanning a month of activity summaries, since I do that anyway
<MacSlow> easy
<lool> Let's vote: who's in favor of Keybuk doing the summarizing?    ;-)
<jono> I will reward you all with nice cheese
<Keybuk> but it would certainly help me if you could highlight what you think are your key achievements
<Keybuk> :p
<MacSlow> lool, +1 :)
<seb128> well, maybe the easier is for people to quickly add a line there when they land some revelant change
<Keybuk> seb128: that would certainly be a help
<seb128> like pitti "switched to jockey"
<lool> I doubt anyone would truly think of this; unless nagged to do it
<seb128> I can add a point when we have a new GNOME packaged
<seb128> etc
<Keybuk> jono: do you just pick things out of the wiki, or do you need them mailed to you?
<seb128> lool: well, depending on the level of details, if that's adding a line a week that should be alright
<jono> Keybuk: read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting
<jono> all explained there
<pitti> seb128: my way of saying that is to flip a specification change, but at that point I could certainly add something to the wiki
<Keybuk> jono: ok
<lool> seb128: The thing is we need a reminder to do it; it's even worse than for the sponsoring queue since we don't receive an email when we do something cool
<Keybuk> jono: so I guess I've been shanghied into being the nominated person ;)
<lool> "From: Ubuntu Coolnes Bot; Subject: you did something cool, mention it in the wiki!"
<seb128> lool: well, at leaast I let people know there is a wiki page and they can update it ;-)
<Keybuk> ok, so Agenda Item: EVERYONE UPDATE THAT WIKI PAGE NOW!! :-)
<jono> Keybuk: good man
 * pitti $ echo 'teamreport https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReportingPage' >> .moin_aliases
<lool> Right, having it hooked either to the activity reports or to the meetings makes sure we think of it from time to time
<pitti> wednesday evening is a great time to update the page
<pitti> it can be mentally tied to sending the weekly report
<jono> right, lunchtime
<jono> later all
<lool> Yup; Keybuk: what about nagging about the team reporting when you nag about the weekly meeting and the activity report?
<lool> Keybuk: I guess you have a template or you re-send the same message every week?
<Keybuk> yup :-)
<Keybuk> (actually I just go into my Sent folder, click "Edit as New Message" and "Send" again :)
<lool> So if you can think of nagging us once, we'll be nagged forever
<Keybuk> talking of which
<Keybuk> <nag> milestoned bugs </nag>
<pitti> just added some stuff there
<Keybuk> ok, I think that pretty much concludes that topic
<seb128> thanks
<Keybuk> please add amazing things to that wiki on an ongoing basis
<Keybuk> I'll nag in my weekly reminder
<Keybuk> and I'll collate them together for both jono's team reporting page, and for the Canonical Monthly Report
<pitti> jono: I just added stuff to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReportingPage -- does it need to be more elaborate/better sentences/etc.?
<jono> pitti: perfect - and then around the 22nd, take those points to the main report :)
 * seb128 thinks it's good like that
<jono> those are great pitti
<jono> nice and succinct :)
<Keybuk> ok, great
<Keybuk> jono: thanks
<jono> thanjs
<jono> thanks
<jono> back soon
<Keybuk> that's it for the agenda I think
<Keybuk> Any Other Business?
<pitti> bugzzzzzzzzap o'clock!
<Keybuk> indeed, nice short meeting, thanks everyone
<Riddell> who's going to fosdem?
 * MacSlow raises hand
<pitti> thanks all
<MacSlow> thanks indeed
 * lool goes
<Riddell> MacSlow: I'll buy you a free beer tomorrow :)
<lool> Don't miss the presentation by Riddell on packaging!
<MacSlow> Riddell, mvo and jorge too
<Daviey> me going
<MacSlow> Riddell, I'll arrive saturday... I live only ~140 km away and don't stay in brussels
<MacSlow> Riddell, but then... I can surely come over in the evening
<MacSlow> lool, don't worry... that's already marked in my big FOSDEM-talks-to-attend-schedule
 * mvo waves
<MacSlow> Riddell, wasn't there a wiki-page on the friday-evening-events for FOSDEM'08 somewhere?
<mvo> MacSlow: do you drive by car?
<MacSlow> mvo, so ist es
<MacSlow> I mean yes
<MacSlow> mvo, you'll hit Bruxelles on friday too?
<Riddell> MacSlow: http://www.fosdem.org/2008/beerevent
<mvo> MacSlow: yes, around 20:30 or so
<mvo> also I didn't find the beerevent appealing
<MacSlow> I won't be able to be there at 20:30... I've capoeira from 18:00-20:00
<MacSlow> on friday
 * mvo nods
<MacSlow> hi dholbach_
 * MacSlow heads for food-injection
<caspu> Hi there
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Feb 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU
<igorgue> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00: MOTU
<ubuntuwestbengal> Mr Jono?
<ubuntuwestbengal> are you there?
<ubuntuwestbengal> Mr Bacon?
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir, are you there?
<jono> ubuntuwestbengal: yes
<ubuntuwestbengal> Sir, i just wanted to know the status of my application for the LocO team
<jono> let me check
<ubuntuwestbengal> which i had submitted to you via email a few days back
<jono> ubuntuwestbengal: could you provide more detail in your roadmap please
<ubuntuwestbengal> surely sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> but it would be helpful if you could give me ideas on how i can broaden our roadmap
<ubuntuwestbengal> since you are so experienced sir, i would appreciate your advice
<jono> ubuntuwestbengal: just provide more detail of specific things you seek to achieve
<ubuntuwestbengal> ok sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> and sir do i have to be present for any Community Council meeting?
<ubuntuwestbengal> for the approval process?
<ubuntuwestbengal> or will i be notified via an email?
<jono> ubuntuwestbengal: yes - let me approve it first and then you can go to the CC
<ubuntuwestbengal> alright sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> i am adding ideas i had gathered earlier to the roadmap right now
<janquark> jono_excuse me if I just pop in, I have added myself to the agenda for
<janquark> the membership for ubuntu memebers
<janquark> and I just wanted to ask if I may attend to the meeting today
<jono> np
<janquark> great :)
<posingaspopular> how much longer till the CC meeting? (sorry if im interrupting anotherone)
<janquark> I think it starts at 20.00 UTC so in 3 hours I gues
<posingaspopular> great, thanks janquark
<janquark> you can check it here too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda posingaspopular
<posingaspopular> janquark: i have the page bookmarked, im just bad at converting UTC. need more practice :P okay thanks alot /me goes back to work
<ubuntuwestbengal> Mr Bacon sir here is the link again https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_West_Bengal_ApprovalApplication
<ubuntuwestbengal> We have updated the roadmap
<ubuntuwestbengal> kindly take a look
<janquark> ubuntuwestbengal: may I say that I like the site  very much
<ubuntuwestbengal> thank you so much sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> we are doing our best to increase the standards of our content over time
<janquark> I am always impressed how Ubuntu can connect people and peoples from the whol world
<janquark> whole*
<ubuntuwestbengal> we are in love with Ubuntu here. Its spreading like wildfire in this part of the world
<janquark> good to here. IMHO Ubuntu is the future of computer operating systems
<janquark> ubuntuwestbengal: if you want I can write an article for my online newspaper dealing with the popularity of Ubuntu in your country?
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir that would be brilliant
<janquark> see here is my page  http://laiconic.quotaless.com/  but you would have to provide some pieces of information for me
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir if you could provide me with your email id i will submit an article to you on the popularity of Ubuntu in my country
<ubuntuwestbengal> i will send you a complete article which you can use for your newspaper
<janquark> that would be great my email :     laiconic.studio@googlemail.com
<ubuntuwestbengal> thank you
<janquark> I am looking forward to read it
<ubuntuwestbengal> i will send it to you within two days
<ubuntuwestbengal> as i have to gather quotes from users
<ubuntuwestbengal> here
<janquark> :) you have plenty of time, do not rush yourself :)
<ubuntuwestbengal> :)
<protonchris> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 21 Feb 13:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 00:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 05:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 14:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 07:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 05:00: MOTU
<pochu> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00: MOTU
<arualavi> @schedule andorra
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Andorra: 21 Feb 21:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 08:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 13:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 22:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 15:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 13:00: MOTU
<posingaspopular> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 17:54:40 - Next meeting: Community Council in 2 hours 5 minutes
<ubuntuwestbengal> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 17:56:47 - Next meeting: Community Council in 2 hours 3 minutes
<warp10> @schedule roma
<warp10> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 21 Feb 21:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 08:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 13:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 22:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 15:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 13:00: MOTU
<greg-g> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 18:04:32 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 55 minutes
<ubuntuwestbengal> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 18:08:11 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 51 minutes
<ubuntuwestbengal> @schedule india
<ubuntuwestbengal> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00: MOTU
<janquark> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 18:13:55 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 46 minutes
<ubuntuwestbengal> janquark: Mr Godawski sir, are you waiting for the CC meeting?
<janquark> yes
<janquark> waiting because I go for the ubuntu membership
<ubuntuwestbengal> janquark: alright
<janquark> quite nervous because I have never attend such a meeting so far
<ubuntuwestbengal> janquark: you are not alone in that case!
<ubuntuwestbengal> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 18:20:47 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 39 minutes
<popey> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00: MOTU
<mayeco> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 18:23:55 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 36 minutes
<mayeco> brb
<ubuntuwestbengal> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 18:27:41 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 32 minutes
<bbartek> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 07:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00: MOTU
<jag2kn> hi
<hollman> hello
<janquark> hi waiting for the CC meeting?
<hollman> yes
<janquark> me too :)
<hollman> :D
<jag2kn> :)
 * janquark is a nervous member candidate
<janquark> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 19:12:43 - Next meeting: Community Council in 47 minutes
<hollman_> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 19:42:47 - Next meeting: Community Council in 17 minutes
<nxvl_work> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 19:46:38 - Next meeting: Community Council in 13 minutes
<nxvl_work> @now Lima
<ubotu> Current time in America/Lima: February 21 2008, 14:46:45 - Next meeting: Community Council in 13 minutes
<emgent> @schedule rome
<nxvl_work> emgent: have you come to be part of my fan club?
<nxvl_work> :P
<totopalma> lol
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 21 Feb 21:00: Community Council | 27 Feb 08:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 13:00: Education Team | 27 Feb 22:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 15:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 13:00: MOTU
<emgent> nxvl_work, lol
<nxvl_work> emgent: btw, are attending to UDS?
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU
<hollman> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 21 2008, 19:56:11 - Current meeting: Community Council
 * johnc4510 greets channel with a wave :)
<mako> greetings
<popey> moo
<emgent> :)
<posingaspopular> it's mako!
<janquark> good evening all :)
<johnc4510> spirit  lol
<greg-g> hello all
<Burgundavia> greets all
 * johnc4510 welcomes tyche 
<johnc4510> hey greg-g
<tyche> Morning.
<hollman> Good afternoon all
<johnc4510> corey hello
<MagicFab> hollman, :)
<nxvl_work> hi all!
 * effie_jayx waves
 * nxvl_work dances
<hollman> MagicFab ;)
<TechnoViking> afternoon
<SimonAnibal> afternoon
<visualdeception> afternoon all
<jpatrick> evening
<johnc4510> 166 nicks in channel
<craigaa> evening all
<nxvl_work> \o> <o> \o/ <o/ \o>
<bbartek> Hi all, laacque how are you?
<chuckf> hi all. I'm here representing the Maryland Loco team. I am at work so if I miss my que, please be understanding
<desertc> hello 166 nicks... 167.... 168...
<leoquant> hee bbartek en laacque
<jag2kn> hi
<popey> chuckf: maximise IRC to full screen and put a sign on the back of your chair "DO NOT DISTURB!"
<exile> hi
<chuckf> popey yeah, that'll work
<laacque> leoquant, what a coinvidence!
<chuckf> :))
<johnc4510> popey: hello
<bbartek> we're here to support leoquant for his Ubuntu membership
<gcleric> howdy everyone
<MagicFab> I'm here for the Colombian team nomination - just as chuckf I' m on duty but my nick's mention will shake my chair
<darkhole> hello there!!! folks!!
<exile> hiere!!!!!!!!!!!
<exile> go Leogg
<exile> GO Leog
<popey> it's gonna be a long one
<exile> :D
<johnc4510> yep
<chuckf> can we do the loco teams first so we don't get fired?
<ledanalf> leogg
<ledanalf> leogg
<ledanalf> leogg
<ubuntuwestbengal> yes
<mako> lets wait for more cc members to show up
<ubuntuwestbengal> this is ubuntu team west bengal ready to be appproved any second
<TechnoViking> hello all
<popey> hi mike
<SimonAnibal> chuckf, MagicFab, Wow, I'm here for Indiana in the same situation: at work. Of course my work is teaching, and my students are taking a quiet test ;-)
<mdke> evening all
 * posingaspopular is configurating a vista machine and *wants* to get fired
<mdke> mako: Burgundavia is around too
<effie_jayx> and I am here to cheer for both Colombia and Indiana
 * schultmc is also here from the IndianaTeam
<mako> mdke: dholbach is running a dev week session so won't be able to participate
<jag2kn> is also here from the ColombianTeam  :D
<ubuntuwestbengal> who do i talk to regarding LoCo team approval?
<popey> ubuntuwestbengal: you'll be told when
<mdke> mako: okay, are we expecting any others?
 * SimonAnibal cheers for Colombia.
<ubuntuwestbengal> right sir
 * exile Cheers Nicaragua Go Leogg
 * ledanalf thinks leogg is cool
<hollman> yea SimonAnibal cheers
<leogg> lol
<johnc4510> clarke8: hey
<clarke8> hi all
<darkhole> I'm witk Colombian Team too
<clarke8> hello johnc4510
<mdke> perhaps we should get started. mako - are we still doing membership approvals? I'm going to struggle for time
<popey> just texted jono as he isnt here
<mdke> thanks popey
<leoquant> are there any cc members?
<popey> the first item is about offloading membership approvals
<mdke> popey: that's come off the agenda now, it was approved some time back
<mako> mdke: sure
<popey> its still on the page
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke: i spoke to Mr Bacon a while back, he told me to submit my application on your agenda
<ubuntuwestbengal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_West_Bengal_ApprovalApplication
<mdke> popey: i don't see it on my version
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda ?
<mdke> yeah
<ubuntuwestbengal> yes sir
<popey> ah, /ignore me
<popey> soz
<mdke> np
<mdke> let's get going then
<chuckf> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarylandTeam/ApprovalApplication
<mako> mdke: when do you turn into a pumpkin?
<schultmc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IndianaTeam/ApprovalApplication
<mdke> mako: I'm not quite sure; maybe an hour?
<Burgundavia> I have 1.5 hours as well
<mdke> great, elmo is here too
 * ausimage wonders why jono demands so much from NY :(
<mdke> we need jono for the first item, but my understanding from our thread on the mailing list was that he would remove it because we don't actually have an approval process for teams
<MagicFab> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColombianTeam/ApprovalApplication
<Burgundavia> shall we grind through the general agenda items?
<elmo> sorry I'm late
<mako> ok, so that's mdke, mako, Burgundavia, elmo
<mdke> yes, let's begin with the general items - we'll come to local team approvals afterwards
<mako> yes
<chuckf> that's bad for me mdke
<darkhole> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColombianTeam/ApprovalApplication
<MikeB> I'm here
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke: no problem sir
<darkhole> ups.. sorry
<mako> oh, great' perfect
<mako> MikeB: good to have you
<chuckf> I cannot hang out here long,
<mdke> we could do chuckf first then
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke: sir it is 130 am in my local time zone
<chuckf> I had to bail once before on this
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke; i would just appreciate if it could be done a bit faster for my
<mdke> ok, chuckf and then ubuntuwestbengal?
<ubuntuwestbengal> application
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke
<mako> fine
<ubuntuwestbengal> oops
<ubuntuwestbengal> yes
<ubuntuwestbengal> thanks
<mdke> ok. so chuckf is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarylandTeam/ApprovalApplication
<ubuntuwestbengal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_West_Bengal_ApprovalApplication
<chuckf> that's me
<mako> after that lets please stick to the schedule, we can't spent the rest of the time talking about process and order. we don't have time
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: please wait until you're called upon
<mako> that goes for everyone else too. lets try to be efficient
<ubuntuwestbengal> mako: ok
<mdke> chuckf: do you want to quickly summarise your team's major achievements and organisation?
<mako> since multiple council members are time constrained
<mdke> in the meantimie we'll read the page
<mako> right, if you are planning on talking, please do take this time to write up summaries to paste in when you are called
<chuckf> monthly meetings, a couple of planned presentations and install fests
<chuckf> we've done three install fests to date and a presentation
<mako> that goes for all locos and and member candidates who suspect they will go
<chuckf> several members have had indivitual projects that have been ubuntu centric as well
<Burgundavia> have had you had much contact with groovix?
<sivang> hi all
<ubuntuwestbengal> mako: i have already summarized the major achievements on the application sir
<chuckf> we are currently expanding around the state with mini meetings
<sivang> has anyone seen lousygarua ?
<aeldor> any1 here knows amir eldor of ubuntu-il, plz PM me (important* no,rlly)
<cyounkins> chuckf: actually we've only done 2 install fests.
<mdke> chuckf: how is progress going with the roadmap? which items have been achieved, and which are you focusing on right now?
<aeldor> sivang PM me now. i'm lousygarua bro
<chuckf> mdke the roadmap is going well, with a focus on expanding around the state at the moment
<Framer> hi leogg
<chuckf> and an install fest next month
<juliux> hi all
<leogg> Framer, hi
<exile> hi all
<Burgundavia> have you had good attendance at your previous meetings
<chuckf> we have an average of 7-10 with a maximum of about 2 dozen
<juliux> sorry for being late :(
<jimbo_> hello everyone
<Karl_> hi leog, hi all
<mdke> the roadmap looks good to me - my one comment would be that you should focus on developing the team and completing other items before you establish any sub-teams
<chuckf> and that 7-10 rotates among regulars
 * mako nods
<chuckf> mdke we do what we can as we can
<Burgundavia> I like the roadmap and the history of meetings
<mako> the installfest pictures look successful
<chuckf> we've had a few new ubuntu users from each one
<mdke> chuckf: sure. But it can be tricky to establish subteams before the parent team is pretty well established
<mako> your projects page is blank. do you guys have things in mind?
<mako> i mean, it's ok to not have projects. i'm just wondering why you have the page :)
<chuckf> projects are something that we need a few more stable things happening
<chuckf> mako it's for the future
<chuckf> if we come up with one, we are ready for it
<chuckf> :))
<mako> what is growth like? attendence at events?
<juliux> chuckf, how many people are coming to your real life meetings?
<chuckf> mako we grow at a slow rate
<chuckf> but it is stable
<chuckf> juliux real life meeting attendace is typically 7-10 people
<juliux> wau
<mdke> the team looks to me as if its going in the right direction and is well focused. Having said that, I'd presonally like to see it a bit more well established and getting some of those roadmap items completed before approval
<chuckf> with the last few rotating as schedules allow
<juliux> chuckf, i love real life meetings so good work that you have them regular
<nbliang> sorry guys, a bit late. it's now 4.20am my time
<mdke> any other thoughts?
<Burgundavia> I think it looks good from my end
 * mako nods to mdke 
<chuckf> mdke approval will help with resources and those that want to see us 'official'
<mako> but you've been around and seem to providing a good home for ubuntu in the locale
<mako> one should always strive to keep the meetings to productive events ratio as low as possible
<mdke> chuckf: which resources are you looking for that require approval?
<chuckf> mdke from what I 've seen approved teams get more printed material for events
<chuckf> we've been passing the jobs around to get hand made stuff for ourselves
<mdke> right
<chuckf> and footing the total costs out of our pockets
<chuckf> media, flyers, etc
<doctormo> chuckf: teams have to foot the bill for many things
<chuckf> mako over the last year, I think the ratio is about 3/1
<chuckf> and I do realize that doctormo but if I can get the occasional freebe from cannonical it would bolster team members a bit
<mako> that's pretty good
<doctormo> chuckf: I'm not so sure it would, the amount of free stuff is quite limited, more CDs and a few stickers won't increase your numbers. Events however will.
<mako> alright, lets make a decision and move on
 * mako nods to doctormo 
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<MikeB> +1
<mako> the primary purpose of recognitition is just that, recognition of work
<chuckf> doctormo I'm focusing on the members that contribute now
<mako> +1 from me, although i'll echo mdke's concerns and would like to see more progress. please keep reporting
<mdke> ok, well I don't have a problem with approval - I don't think you are quite there yet but it sounds like you will go in the right direction so I don't have any concerns
<mako> chuckf: loco teams should be outreach groups, not clubs
<mdke> +1
<mdke> elmo?
<mako> whose next
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir me
<mako> west bengal, yes?
<elmo> +1
<ubuntuwestbengal> yes sir
<chuckf> mako but without a club, we can't reach far:))
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: please go ahead
<chuckf> so we're approved then?
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_West_Bengal_ApprovalApplication
<mako> chuckf: i understand what you mean. but if you're treating it like a club, i think that's a problem
<mdke> chuckf: yes, full marks. We hope to see you guys going from strenght to strength in the future
 * mako nods 
<cyounkins> Thank you.
<mdke> chuckf: maybe you can come back and report with news on new stuff you are doing. Make sure to use the TeamReports resource
<chuckf> mako it's a club that is open to all that want to participate
<chuckf> mdke thanks, and I'll do that
<mdke> ubuntuwestbengal: how have the events gone that you have done so far?
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir the events have gone very successfully, with new ubuntu users emerging from every AV presentation
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir we were not allowed to take pictures
<ubuntuwestbengal> as this part of the world is a bit conservative
<doctormo> chuckf: It's an advocasy group, linux users should join a lug not a Loco
<mako> igorgue: your first event was february rd?
<mako> sorry, that was for ubuntuwestbengal
<igorgue> np
<ubuntuwestbengal> mako: sir that was our first formal event
<chuckf> doctormo and we do work with the lugs in the area
<desertc> Hope not to take away from the discussion too much, but what is our position on partnering with commercial linux providers for sponsorship, where they can provide the funds for LoCo expenses?
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: so, how have you been acive before that?
<chuckf> anyway, i'm being called away, thanks all
<Burgundavia> desertc: later
<mako> chuckf: thanks for showing up. glad we could recognize your contributions :)
<ubuntuwestbengal> make: sir we have always been here since last year
<chuckf> thanks mako
<ubuntuwestbengal> and we have beend distributing free CDs that we bought ourselves and burned
<Burgundavia> ubuntuwestbengal: it looks like the team only existed since dec 2007?
<mdke> ubuntuwestbengal: do you have a relationship with loco teams in neighbouring states? What language is used in your area and do you contribute to translations?
<mako> Burgundavia: that's last year ;)
<ubuntuwestbengal> Sir the language here is Hindi
<ubuntuwestbengal> although we are working on bengali translations sir
<Burgundavia> mako: yes, well the page says 2008, which hasn't happened yet :)
<ubuntuwestbengal> Burgundavia: sorry sir?
<mdke> ubuntuwestbengal: is there an official Ubuntu translation team for bengali?
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: listen, this is important. have you been involved in signfiicant activites beyond in the last month or two?
<ubuntuwestbengal> not at the moment sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> yes sir
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: your work looks really good :)
<ubuntuwestbengal> thank you sir
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: but i don't see doucmentation of activity beyond the last three weeks
<ubuntuwestbengal> it is very important for us to make sure that the community at large in west bengal is aware that there is life beyond microsoft and macs
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: and even the events are just one-line links
<ubuntuwestbengal> mako: sir due to technical difficulties here, we havent been able to properly update the activities
<ubuntuwestbengal> mako: sir i have just summarised them for your convenience
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: ok, can we put this on hold then and then come back when you've got that documentation done?
<mdke> I agree with mako, I think we need to see more evidence of committed events over a longer period.
<Burgundavia> I agree too
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: i appreciate that, but we've got to look at evidence of significant and sustained activity and contributions
<mdke> I also think you need to work on showing collaboration with other teams. for example, there are three bengali translation teams
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: that means months of activities and it means documentation we can look at
<mdke> bn-bd, bn-id and bn
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: pictures, press, etc
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir i guess there may have been a communication lapse between the translation teams
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir we were not allowed to take pictures
<ubuntuwestbengal> as the events were held in schools
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: please work closely with jono and add yourself back to the agenda when he says the documentation is sufficient
<ubuntuwestbengal> sir, they did not allow cameras
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: fine, take pictures of the other ones. fliers testimonials, writeups, etc
<ubuntuwestbengal> mako: i spke to Jono a while back today and he said everything was fine sir
<mdke> ubuntuwestbengal: perhaps you could contact the teams and collaborate, and then come back at a later stage
<ubuntuwestbengal> mako: sir i did, the poster is shown there
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke: and sir we have also been going personally to peoples houses to install Ubuntu if they faced problems
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: i appreciate that, but i don't see documentation of your activity or any evidence of what happened before 3 weeks ago
<mdke> ubuntuwestbengal: ok. We appreciate your enthusiasm and look forward to hearing more about your work in the community. But for now, the team application isn't ready for approval
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke: i understand sir
<mako> ubuntuwestbengal: that's right, we're going to come back to you at some point in the future
<mdke> thanks for staying up late to talk with us
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke: my pleasure sir
<ubuntuwestbengal> mdke: i will get back to you sir
<mako> denmark?
<mdke> mako: we should go back to the regular agenda if poss
<Burgundavia> yep
 * schultmc has 40 mins left - can Indiana go soon?
<MagicFab> Colombia, tsss :)
<mako> please
<mako> we're going to go in order
<leoquant> i have 10 min left
<mayeco> here.... sorry i'm a little late
<mako> is denmark here?
<mako> oh you're right
<mako> mdke: sorry, i got off track
<mako> looks like denmark isn't here anyway?
<mdke> 20:09:07 < mdke> we need jono for the first item, but my understanding from our thread on the mailing list was that he would remove it because we don't actually have an approval  process for teams
<mako> mdke: great, so we skip it either way
<mdke> item two
<mako>  AmirEldor
<mako> 	
<mako> LoCo Website Hosting. Several teams find it diffcult to manage their websites/domains due to lack of communciation with Canonical's sysadmins
<MagicFab> nick for Denmark would be gnomonic, not here I think
<mdke> am I right this was discussed at a previous meeting?
<gcleric> yup...
<posingaspopular> mdke: yes
<elmo> really?  I picked a great meeting to miss!
<elmo> \o/
<mdke> elmo: I read that on the loco mailing list, I will get a link
<MagicFab> There was no conclusion, though - just general information
<mako> elmo: apparently :)
<Burgundavia> is this really an issue for the CC?
<mako> Burgundavia: no, it's not (at least not yet
<mdke> I don't think the CC can do anything about it, at least
<mako> alright then, moving on
<Flannel> Burgundavia: I believe on  the -contacts list, it was recommended it be taken to the CC
<craigaa> as a LoCo team lead I see it as resource issue. I have been lead to believe that the sysadmins are overwhelmed with requests
<mako> craigaa: it sounds like this is not on the agenda
<mdke> the only thing I think we can explore is whether there is anything the community can do to help
<tritium> That is my understanding as well.
<Burgundavia> but the CC cannot "force" canonical to either spend money or open up access
<mako> persia: is up next
<persia> MOTU Council would like to request explicit permission to grant Ubuntu Membership independently from granting MOTU membership.  Some background and justification is available from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/GrantingMembership
<persia> In short, MOTU Council currently grants membership as a side-effect when adding new members to MOTU.  We'd prefer to separate these to both typically consider Membership separately from MOTU, and provide a mechanism to recognise significant and sustained contribution without granting upload rights yet.
<mako> persia: thanks :)
<elmo> FWIW, I'm happy to talk to people about this, in #canonical-sysadmin
<elmo> (to keep us on topic)
<mako> thanks elmo
<Burgundavia> elmo: thanks
<popey> * elmo leaves #canonical-sysadmin [run for the hills]
<Traveler7> mako, Amir Eldor cuold't have come but he aske dme to come in his name..
<mako> persia: alright... can you give me example
<mdke> persia: +1 from me. when the regional membership boards are set up, the MC can encourage candidates to use those, to assist with time considerations
<mako> persia: the request sounds pretty reasonable
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<mdke> the only thing that is important for me is to ensure that news of the new members is spread around the community in the same way we envisage for other councils or boards
<mdke> for me, the UWN is the centre for all that
<mako> but presumably the MOTU council will be reviewing candidate who are the type of person who starts uploading
<LeAstrale> a little late :/
<elmo> I'd like to know an example too
<persia> mako: I'd have to chase the approval logs, but there are several Contributors who have been doing good work for 3-6 months, but still make occasional mistakes.  We'd like to indicate to them that they are welcome and part of Ubuntu while asking them to learn more before they have root on our workstations.
<mako> what are the types of significant, sustained constributions that do no cause you to want to grant upload rights that you want to grant membership for?
 * mako nods
<persia> No other types of contribution.  Just that they still would need sponsorship for uploads, but have been doing good work, and are valued members of the development community.
<mako> persia: are there are other types of contribution that do not benefit from upload rights that you want to recognize with membershiop?
<Burgundavia> persia: sort of a supervised motu?
<mako> man, you keep answering my questions right as i'm done typing them
 * ScottK2 would suggest that nxvl_work that's up later today would be a good example of the kind of person this would apply to
<persia> Burgundavia: Somewhat.  Of the ~320 people who have changelog credits for hardy, at least 2/3 are not MOTU.
<mako> persia: bug work is one thing that springs to mind
<mako> persia: ok, has the rest of hte motu council agreed that they want to do this?
<persia> mako: Ah.  I see what you mean.  Yes, contributions in other areas would be considered when examining an applicant, but MC doesn't expect to receive applications from those not active as developers.
<ember> i think i'm an example too
<anthony> (where are we in the agenda?)
 * nxvl_work agrees with ScottK2
<persia> The rest of MOTU Council is agreed, and it was discussed in our last two calls.  The wiki page is the result of discussion amoung us (although I was tasked with drafting and presentation to CC).
<mdke> sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Will it be a problem to report new members to the UWN?
<mako> persia: ok, as long as the the level of commitement, contribution , and interpersonal skills is the same, i have no problem
<persia> mdke: It oughtn't be, although we may need some guidance on the mechanism for such reporting.
<mdke> ok, we should do something along those lines for all the teams granting membership - leave it with me
<mako> persia: my only concern is that i *really* don't want to see membership become a first hurdle
<mako> because then membership becomes a sort of first-step toward developership
<mako> and a lesser status in the project
<mako> and i don't like that all
<mako> i want every member who does technical work to be treated as a peer with non-technical contributors
 * johnc4510 UWN gets the councils new members from a mailing list or wiki page, we would need some way of knowing when it happens with MOTU
<ScottK2> That used to be the case (membership was a requirement).
<mako> of course, they are orthagol, but i want a technocracy
<persia> mako: We discussed that, and would be willing to consider people for both MOTU and Member at the same time, but in most cases Contributors would be ready for Membership prior to being ready for MOTU, so it would provide a ramp for them.  Not so much a "lower" status, as just able to represent, but not yet to upload.
<mdke> ScottK2: membership has always been a requirement - just that it could be granted at the same time as motu status
<persia> mdke: Yes, but due to other factors, the majority of MOTU applicants are not members at this point.
<mdke> sure, I don't have a problem with your proposal
<mdke> incidentally, congrats on the MC in general - seems to be working really well.
<tritium> membership is a big bottleneck.  Look at today's agenda, with applicants from as far back as August.
<mako> persia: do you understand my concern?
<mdke> tritium: that's rather a different question, which we've sought to address in the StreamlineMembershipApproval spec
<tritium> mdke: agreed
<mako> persia: i'm very worried about doing thigns that will cause membership to be seen a sort of lesser status in the project
<posingaspopular> cani just say that the foresight linux people are designing their membership applications specifically to avoid bottlenecks like ours?
<mako> persia: because the effect of that is to make the non-technical members less highly ranking in the project
<mako> posingaspopular: we are also designing our applications to do the same, but lets stay on topic
<ScottK2> mako: To the extent that developers care about non-technical ranking, I don't think you have to worry.
<persia> mako: About peers?  I think so.  You want all members to be roughly equal, rather than having development members possibly being considered "lesser" due to the alternate forum, right?
<mdke> persia: non-development members
<persia> That is part of why we raise the topic here: if it is believed that all Members should have the same approval process, we may want to push interested parties to other fora rather than providing dual-approvals in most cases.
<mako> persia: so, i support your proposal, i'm just make sure you're on board with part of the way that membership is conceived when you're making your decisions on how to handle this
<mako> many many free software projects privledge technical contributions to other types
<mdke> my personal opinion is that if the regional membership approval teams work properly, that is where we should get to in the long run. Right now I don't think we can get to that place
<mako> the doc and art people get less respect, visibility, etc
<mdke> (i.e. with all members having the same approval process)
<gcleric>  mdke: would it be in appropriate to state that there is a freeze on new memberships until the issue StreamlineMembershipApproval is finished?
<persia> mdke: Ah.  I understand.  I'm not sure how to respond to that: I'm much more comfortable having someone help and be part of the community than giving them unrestricted root on my workstation.
<mako> gcleric: no, that's not appropriate to state
<mako> persia: right, that's a sensible position and that's one we've taken
<elmo> (I've got to step out for 5 mins; assuming persia understands mako/mdke's points, +1 from me, bbias)
<gcleric> mako: but that is what is being communicated by not getting to the new memberships.
<mako> persia: but it's the fine line between "technical skills are handled differently and after membership" to "technical recognition is the next step up the ubuntu recognition food chain"
<persia> mako: OK.  We're certainly not planning to lower the bar for membership: we're expecting several months of considerable contributions as a base requirement, with a need for community support and demonstration of community interaction.  We're still discussing the specific criteria we will apply.
<greg-g> gcleric: please, can we let them finish their current agenda items so we can get to the membership approvals
<mako> gcleric: we're doing the best we can here, talk about how we're not getting to things isn't speeding it up, but feel free to talk to me in a side channel where we don't have to distract the rest of the meeting
<persia> mako: For those who are developers, commit rights is the target goal.  Other bits appear ancillary.  For those active in other ways, I don't think commit rights help very much, and so may not be important.
<mdke> I think we can trust the MC to take the right approach when granting membership
<mako> persia: ok, +1 from me but please keep that in mind and don't hesitate to run your text by me
<mako> persia: thanks for bearing with me
<Burgundavia> +1 from me with the same clarification as mako
<persia> mako: No problem.  As we get closer to implementation, we'll provide some more details to confirm the criteria.
<mdke> good. Denmark?
<mako> persia: wonderful
<mako> persia: please keep me in the loop
<mako> mdke: seems like a no show
<mako> columbia
<persia> Just to confirm, is there any reason to not include all CC members "in the loop"?
<MagicFab> Colombia, that is
<MagicFab> :)
<hollman> :D
<MagicFab> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColombianTeam/ApprovalApplication
<Hanumat> :D
<MagicFab> It has been a slow but steady path to bring together an active group of Ubuntu users in the Colombian Team. Free open source software does not have much visibility in local media and the governement, educational and private initiatives have only been gaining traction for the past few 2-3 years. Microsoft and other local lobbies are hard at work to stop any free software initiatives.
<Burgundavia> persia: don't think so, just fire it at our list
<mdke> persia: nope
<schultmc> FYI, /me has to leave at 21:15 - SimonAnibal will handle Indiana if I'm not back by the time you get to Indiana
<MagicFab> In that context the team is facing interesting challenges compared to other countries where governement and private organizations are already massively implementing free, open source solutions (including but not limited to Ubuntu).
<MagicFab> The mailing list remains the most active resource, and public events and conferences are where members participate the most. I personally expect to "pass the torch" to other members once the team is official, and there is very high interest in pursuing out objectives from several regular contributors and members.
<MagicFab> Several members are on the channel here too, we' re happy to answer questions
<MagicFab> including darkhole :)
<mdke> thanks, that's a helpful summary. on my favourite subject, how do you interrelate to other similar teams?
<mdke> geographically, or linguistically
<MagicFab> I sit on their channels :) We actively invite them to copy resources we create based on the english material. A few of our members are very active translating wiki guides
<mdke> how about Ubuntu translation?
<MagicFab> May I also mention I am writing this from Montreal, Canada - so I effectively have lead the team for a good while from here.
<MagicFab> A few members participate in translation. Good part of my karma to become a member was that too. But translations happens mostly on wiki resources.
<Burgundavia> MagicFab: related to the being in montreal bit: have you sought out somebody in country to do the leading?
<MagicFab> We helped translate and revise the CoC signing guide and IRC guides
<MagicFab> keys to membership process
 * johnc4510 UWN always needs translators too
<mdke> what plans do you have for your website?
<MagicFab> Burgundavia, yes, I have several very good candidates. It' s going to be a blood bath and >54 members know how to use the polls in LP
<MagicFab> mdke - going to #canonical-sysadmin after this meeting :)
<Burgundavia> MagicFab: a bloodbath?
<MagicFab> mdke, I have people on standby to work on Drupal, a local wiki and other stuff. But holding on that for now
<MagicFab> Burgundavia, I expect at least 5 string candidates to lead - we may end up having a council (similar to -ve
<Burgundavia> ahh, ok
<mdke> MagicFab: I mean, what purpose will it serve
<nxvl_work> MagicFab: and -pe :P
<MagicFab> We also made a pretty clear and traight forward membership guide - Colombian team membership, that is
<mako> hold up, back in 5 minutes
<mako> i'll catch up
<MagicFab> mdke, the website would carry local news, agregate blogs, and a local wiki for documentation pertinent to colombia (like how to use uBuntu with X university' s network VPN etc)
<luis_lopez> I think it's important to mention that 96% of our members have signed the CoC
<MagicFab> The focus now is a  big event, the FLISOL - an installfest across LatinAmerica. We have people organizing in several cities. Last year was good for preparation and experience.
<jag2kn> http://installfest.info/
<jag2kn> http://installfest.info/FLISOL2008/Colombia/
<MagicFab> We' ve also created a new langaguege teamcollaborating with the Venezuela team - > Ubuntu in wayuunaiki
<MagicFab> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-guc
<mdke> MagicFab: sounds good. any plans in relation to local support?
<MagicFab> I'll shut up now
<mayeco> ...
<MagicFab> Local support, yes.
<MagicFab> In Colombia major cities have minimalls full of PC component and full system selleers
<MagicFab> It is planned to go visit them and educate them about Ubuntu
<MagicFab> And assist them in providing support
<MagicFab> I am also pushing for karma -hungry members to get on Answers. However LP' s language (english) has been a barrier to adoption
<MagicFab> An example of active translator: https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/~alarconj/
<MagicFab> Julian also just finished our first monthly report (feb)
<Burgundavia> MagicFab: how are you doing on the getting of conference booths?
<mdke> well, it generally sounds quite good - plenty of events, and good plans. I'm happy to give +1, again I'd be interested if you guys come back and give us an update when you've switched leaders, and grown further
<MagicFab> Burgundavia, in what respect ? Several local orgs are offering " community"  booths and we are takling those
<schultmc> bbiab
<MagicFab> mdke, the reports requirement will help getting the word out
<Burgundavia> MagicFab: ok, just wondering
<santiago-ve> <effie_jayx> I have seen the constant growth of the ColombianTeam and they have served as a source of empowerment for the Ubuntu-ve team, the ever watchful eye of our great peer MagicFab makes this team a very productive and hardworking always looking into ways of colaborating in the Ubuntu Community as a whole. As a loCo team contac for Venezuela. May Colombia achieve what it endevours...
<MagicFab> mdke, and I can' t wait to pass the torch - it's just weird to be so far :D
<Burgundavia> +1 from me, but yes, come back when you have a council/leader in place
<MagicFab> Did I mention we are in good terms with the Venezuela team - yes I justsaid that :D
<mayeco> Panamanian team too...
<Burgundavia> mako, MikeB, elmo: further questions?
<MagicFab> Generally speaking I see a trend towards strong hispanic teams participation
<mako> sorry, just coming back now
<MagicFab> I mean collaboration.
 * leogg cheers for Colombia, It's a great team and they play a pretty active and important role in the Spanish speaking LoCo community
<MagicFab> leogg, from -ni spearheded the Ubuntu Desktop course translation and we' re joining with -ve to help out
<MikeB> sorry, got called into my bosses office, let me read back
 * igorgue says viva colombia latinos al poder!, congrats :)
<leogg> MagicFab, that's correct... it's LoCo collaboration all the way:)
<Burgundavia> I have to run in 10
<mako> so what are the feelings of the council members?
<Burgundavia> +1 from me, but yes, come back when you have a council/leader in place
<mdke> +1 from me
<mako> i'm also fine with approval
<elmo> +1
<MagicFab> Thank you - cheers to all that worked hard for this! :)
<jag2kn> :D
<hollman>  cherssssss
<darkhole> Thanks to you too
<jag2kn> thanks
<schultmc> back
<hollman> thank's
<Hanumat> :D
<luis_lopez> viva colombia!
<SimonAnibal> schultmc, Excellent timing, bro ;-)
<darkhole> :)
<leogg> congrats MagicFab - arriba Colombia!
<Hanumat> :D
<Hanumat> Viva Colombia...!!
<SimonAnibal> Â¡Felicitaciones, hermanos Colombianos!
 * MagicFab hugs all other team members - saquen el aguardiente **
<mako> sounds good
<MagicFab> ok - shhhh... meeting in progress
<schultmc> SimonAnibal: thx :)
<n0rman> ehehheeh congrats MagicFab
<leogg> XD
<mako> alright, lets move on
<Hanumat> :D
<mako> indiana
<schultmc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IndianaTeam/ApprovalApplication
<schultmc> The IndianaTeam is approaching its one year anniversary.  So far we've held monthly IRC meetings, decided on a team logo, setup a CafePress site for team apparel, participated in several conferences (IU LinuxFest, ITEC, Ohio LinuxFest, K-12 Open Minds Conference), and held a Gutsy Release Party.
<schultmc> We're helping plan an Indiana LinuxFest and are planning a Hardy Release Party for April as well as continuing our educational and advocacy focuses.
<mako> wow, that sounds pretty full :)
<schultmc> :)
<SimonAnibal> mako, We wanted to make sure we only had to come before you once ;-)
<SimonAnibal> Well, that is, to get Approved
<mako> SimonAnibal: yeah! i can see that
<mako> i'm glad you're working with inACCESS :)
<mako> i went out and gave a talk at a conference they organized last year, it's exciting stuff
<SimonAnibal> It's what got me into Ubuntu
<SimonAnibal> Yeah, I said hi to you the next day, I had planned to go on Thursday so as to see your talk, but David Thornburg was held up
<mako> ah yes, sorry, putting  face to a name
<mako> wonderful application
<SimonAnibal> Yeah, I'm sure I didn't mention my name.
<schultmc> mako has also met me :)
<mako> you guys should put your logo on your page :)
<SimonAnibal> I also gave a talk at that conference, as you can see on our application
<SimonAnibal> mako, I keep meaning to do that...
<schultmc> mako: it's on our launchpad page at least
<mako> anyway, i'm happy not spending any more time in this meeting
<mako> +1 for approval for me
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<elmo> +1
<Burgundavia> tonnes of meetings, tonnes of experience, nice roadmap
<mdke> very well documented page
<mako> the application itself is very well put together, pictures are helpful
<mdke> +1
<Burgundavia> and I need to run
<desertc> +1
<mako> Burgundavia: thanks
<mako> lets see if we can can handle a few members who have been waiting for a long time
<mako> and who are here
<SimonAnibal> Thank you, all
<nxvl_work> o/
<mdke> thanks SimonAnibal
<mako> before mdke disappears
<schultmc> Thank you!
 * desertc cheers SimonAnibal.
<mako> great work SimonAnibal and schultmc
<desertc> Great work!
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Feb 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 05 Mar 07:00 UTC: Platform Team
<SimonAnibal> This is just the beginning
<mako> demrit Miguel Vazquez Gocobachi ?
<mako> perhaps time to remove from the page
<MikeB> back finally
<MikeB> +1 for Columbia
<mako> Forlong/Nick Bauermeister
<mako> RichardoPerez?
<darkhole> Thanks MikeB
<mako> juliux i know i've seen around today
<MikeB> +1 for Indiana, but under full disclosure, I was born in Indiana (Tell City) and went to Indiana University)
<MikeB> so I may be bias:)
<johnc4510> lol
<juliux> mako, ys
<juliux> yes
<SimonAnibal> MikeB, heheh, well, you know who to get ahold of if you're ever in the old hometown itching for some Ubuntu love
<juliux> mako, dholbach allready approved my membership
<juliux> mako, see mail on the cc mailinglist
<mako> ok, let me remove that
<juliux> forlong can be removed
<mako> juliux: yes, i recall. i'm just going through the list in order
<MikeB> SimonAnibal: Tell City or Bloomington?
<juliux> he is from germany but not realy active
<mako> StevenHarperUK?
<SimonAnibal> MikeB, whichever. We're all over the state.
<mako> quadrispro?
<mako> leoquant?
<laacque> I m afraid leoq has gone, he s disabled so can t stay up this long, doesn t mean that he isn t a good teamleader of course
<mako> Caeser/Andrew Pollack?
<mako> laacque: ok, but still interested will leave him on the list. if it becomes a huge problem we can find some other way to do it. the next meeting will be at a different time
<mdke> maybe we'll even have the regional teams going!
<mako> posingaspopular seems to be next
<nixternal> w00t posingaspopular!
 * johnc4510 cheers for posingaspopular w00t
 * greg-g go posingaspopular !
<tyche> GO posingaspopular!
<nixternal> He definitely has my vote! He is now the team lead for Ubuntu Chicago, and I believe he has done more work with the LoCo than I ever did
<nixternal> and he better not have fallen asleep waiting
<johnc4510> good mix with other teams
<mako> no really posingaspopular. go :)
<posingaspopular> yea
<posingaspopular> hey all
<nixternal> about time!
<johnc4510> yes
<johnc4510> lol
<posingaspopular> i was getting yelled at by my coworkers...
<mako> pleasant
<nixternal> you can also be assured that he has the vote from his brother Admiral_Chicago too :)
<mako> ironically, you seem to be legimiately popular
<nixternal> mako: we always yell at him though :) he is used to it
<nixternal> mako: no, he is posing
<posingaspopular> so i am the leader for the chicago Loco, and we have a never project we are working on, still hush hush atm. :P
<Admiral_Chicago> I vote in favor :)
<posingaspopular> meetings every 6 weeks or so (btw all of this is on the wiki's, im just lazy) and for the heck of it i'll throw out the project we're working on
<nixternal> lazy? -1 from me now
<posingaspopular> the LoCo is going to start working on a sort of Ubuntu hackathon school which means that we'll be teaching teh desktop guide to anyone who wants to learn, and then moving on to advanced ubutnu hacking
 * mako is happy with +1 on well documented loco work.. and other stuff :)
<posingaspopular> we are meeting in 2 weeks to finally hammer out all the details
<nixternal> he has done a ton for real with a local Christian College by converting them over 100% to Ubuntu, and even got the support from quite a few members as well in the process...good work done by all
<mako> i'm interested in project green too
<posingaspopular> thanks mako, i like your blogs.
<mdke> yes +1 from me, good page and clear contribution over a decent period. I've come across posingaspopular on -doc and he is very enthusiastic
<posingaspopular> mako: thats the CC propject
<anthony> posingaspopular has been helpful in acting as a loco catalyst - encouraging other teams
<posingaspopular> also, we are have launched the Tri Loco team
 * boredandblogging cheers for posingaspopular!
<posingaspopular> it's Chicago, Ohio and Michigan where we collab between the 3 (jcastro gave us the idea) to spread the teams in the midwest
<greg-g> The Tri-LoCo project is great for the Michigan, Chicago, and Ohio teams
<posingaspopular> catch up on news, talk abotu ridesharings
<nixternal> hahaha
<posingaspopular> posingaspopular.wordpress.com is my blog
<schultmc> you should expand to the Quad-LoCo project now since Indiana's approved now ;)
<nixternal> schultmc: +1
<greg-g> schultmc: good point
<posingaspopular> ive been meanign to update it and file some hardy bugs btw.. schultmc pm me please
<mako> today indiana, tomorrow... THE WORLD
<elmo> +1
 * nixternal crawls back into his code writing hole
<mako> MikeB, mdke: ?
<MikeB> +1
<posingaspopular> and i charied the last ubuntu-us meeting. speeaking of which greg-g we need to decided a date for the new one
<mako> posingaspopular: in another channel :)
<greg-g> posingaspopular: yes, we'll do that later tonight, email/pm me
<mako> leogg: why don't you start
<posingaspopular> also, of course, confrences, hacktahons, codesprints, etc.
<Admiral_Chicago> is that a yes on posingaspopular?
<leogg> Hi! My name is Leandro GÃ³mez, I'm the team contact and one of the founders of the Ubuntu Nicaragua LoCo Team. My wiki is located in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Leocharrua and my Launchpad profile: https://launchpad.net/~leogomez72
<leogg> My main efforts has been in developing the local Ubuntu community and mentoring some of the teams in the Central American area. We have today (12 months later) a strong and dedicated team of enthusiastic individuals who puts a lot of work in promoting Ubuntu and FOSS in our country.
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: gotta wait for burgandavia and sabdfl to vote yet...so he has to wait more than likely
<leogg> My goals for 2008; 1) Contribute to make all Central American teams approved by the end of the year. 2) Become MOTU :)
<mdke> Admiral_Chicago: yes
<Admiral_Chicago> cool
<posingaspopular> thanks, ttyl soon.
<johnc4510> posingaspopular: congrats
<Admiral_Chicago> \o/! --> posingaspopular
<posingaspopular> okay leogg time everyone!
<leogg> :)
 * jorsol cheers for leogg, one of the best leaders of Central America
<leogg> thx jorsol
<mdke> leogg: I'm interested in knowing how the various spanish teams collaborate - are you involved in ubuntu-es.org?
 * ledanalf cheers for leogg too :D 
<leogg> mdke: in the spanish speaking loco? yes
<mako> the loco page is wonderful
<mdke> how does that team interrelate to teams like Ubuntu Spain and other spanish speaking teams?
<igorgue> leogg: does not have red blood... its brown and orange :), cheers to leogg
<leogg> thank you mako
<leogg> mdke, we work mainly with LoCo Teams in our area (Central America), we had some events together with -sv and -gt
<leogg> and we share information and resources
<mdke> great
<leogg> we are also looking forward to collaborate with 'co and ve in translating the Ubuntu desktop course
<mako> alright
<mdke> well, for me your wiki page I'd say you are a pretty outstanding candidate. Keep up the good work and +1 from me
<leogg> thanks mdke
<mako> i'm happy approving membership based on what appears to major activity in a very active and successful loco
<mako> +1 from me too
<leogg> thanks mako
<mako> MikeB, elmo: ?
 * jorsol +1 for leogg
<mako> Flare183 doesn't seem to be here?
<MikeB> +1
 * ledanalf + for leogg
<mako> gcleric: alright, you're up
 * MaPo +1 for leogg
<leogg> thanks MikeB :)
<gcleric> My name is Eric Krieger and I'm from Albuquerque, New Mexico.   I've been using Ubuntu since the days of Warty and various linux distro's since 1993. Please feel to browse my wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GrammatonCleric.  Along the way I've written several HOWTO's on the Ubuntu Forum and I've tried to help users in need. I'm currently active member, and like to think a core member, of the New Mexico LoCo team.  As NM Loco member I've wa
 * MagicFab cheers for leogg
<mako> gcleric: sorry if i was rude earlier, was just trying to move things along
<leogg> thanks MagicFab
<tritium> gcleric: _is_ one of our core members
<igorgue> congrats leogg, lets get drunk!
<gcleric> no worries...sorry if I was being disruptive...
<leogg> XD
<mdke> gcleric: have you contributed any of the howtos you've written to the documentation website?
<gcleric> I've written all of them...on my wiki site.
<effie_jayx> congrats leogg
<leogg> thanks effie_jayx :)
<tritium> I'd like to point out that gcleric is the project lead on our most important project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Endorphin_Power_Company_Ubuntu_Install_and_Support
<mdke> gcleric: it would be nice to see you contributing directly to the wiki on the documentation website, that way our central documentation resource can benefit from your efforts
<gcleric> mdke: I would love to.
<gcleric> I will make a point to do so in furture.
<tritium> gcleric has also supported our install-fests, and Software Freedom Day events, and is the most active contributor to our mailing list.
<mdke> great. check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide for an intro and feel free to hang out on the ubuntu-doc mailing list and fire any questions
<mdke> gcleric: you might also find some helpful material on porting forum articles at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum
<gcleric> mdke: thank you I will port what I have to the documentation website.  =)
<mdke> this Endorphin Power Company initiative sounds really interesting too
<elmo> +1 for leogg, sorry
<mako> mdke: yeah, absolutely
<gcleric> yes the EPC project is proving to be really rewarding on many fronts.
<tritium> mdke: yes, it is truly supporting needy people in our locale, and could potentially gain quite a bit of positive press for Ubuntu.
<mdke> that's very good to hear about
<mdke> have you let the UWN guys know about the project? would be good to get it some more exposure
<tritium> As the NM LoCo founder, I'm very proud of gcleric, and extremely fortunate to have him on our team.
<mako> gcleric: the documentation of the project is really nice.. just to have a running list of the process
<mako> gcleric: helps provide documentation and a view into the process for folks that might want to replciate something similar in other places and with other groups
<gcleric> our hope is to provide a template for others to follow if they wish.
<tritium> mdke: I intend to write something up for the next LoCo team report.
<mako> gcleric: awesome
<mako> wow, some of these howtos look great too
<mako> the ones on the forums
<mdke> tritium: cool, pass it to the UWN too
<gcleric> mako: thanks =)
 * mako gives a +1 for membership
<tritium> mdke: will do, thanks.
<mako> gcleric: keep it up! :)
<mdke> +1 from me too, good work and welcome
<gcleric> the mythtv converter seem real popular... =)
<JayTee52> gotta run now, Go Hoosiers!!!!
<MikeB> you are marked as a Gentoo user on the forums?
<gcleric> guilty... I used to work with Daniel Robbins.
<MikeB> lol, +1 from me
<tritium> Obviously, if I had a vote, +1 from me.
<mako> so i've got another meeting coming up adn we just passed the 2 hour mark..
<greg-g> noo......
 * ogasawara cries
<rick_h_> myabe 3rd time's a charm greg-g :(
<greg-g> yeah, I can be patient
<posingaspopular> ive never seen anyone so upset to see mako leave
<greg-g> :)
<tritium> So, is that a congratulations to gcleric?
<mako> lets try to do a couple more
<mako> warp10: you around?
<johnc4510> sure
<nxvl_work> wooohoooooo
<mako> elmo on gcleric ?
<warp10> mako: here I am
<warp10> Hi! I am Andrea Colangelo, 27 years old from Italy. My launchpad page is at https://launchpad.net/~warp10/
<warp10> I begun contributing to the community in May 2007, within the Italian LoCo Team. I still help there, where I am involved in CD and sticker projects (we ship Ubuntu CDs and Ubuntu stickers to people willing to get some), Ubuntu-it Press Office (the team that writes press-releases and take care of contacts with media) and Ubuntu-it screencasts (just like the worldwide Screencast Team).
<warp10> Since October 2007 I began my yourney as MOTU contributor. My mentor pitti is driving me through this wonderful world, and so far I took care of several bugfixes and merges/syncs.  I did a couple brand new package too, and joined ubuntu-it-dev, the Italian Developer Team involved in packaging and backporting software that our Community requests.
<warp10> Other activities I am involved in are: bugs triaging (I am a member of the Bug Control Team), ISO testing and Laptop testing.
<warp10> My plans for the future: become MOTU, continue focusing on Debian <--> Ubuntu cooperation, improve my current activities, continue to spread the Ubuntu and FOSS verb among friends of mine and people I meet. You can find more info about me and some cheers for my application on my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreaColangelo
<warp10> Thanks.
<elmo> +1
<totopalma> I would like to sponsor Andrea for his membership, he is a very hard worker and a good MOTU contibutor. His work on the Italian community is invaluable
<elmo> man, I suck at keeping up
<mako> gcleric: congrats dude
<DktrKranz> I've seen (and sponsored) several packages made by Andrea. He's a great contributor in MOTU activities. He's also very active in bug triaging, so a big cheer from me.
<gcleric> WhoooHooo!!! Thank you so much!!!
<Hattory> Andrea is a very active person, he recently started to look at MOTU issues by uploading a lot of packages. I think the membership is deserved and so +1 from me... go Andrea go!
<mako> elmo: i'm trying to push this fast :)
<ScottK2> +1 from me too for good work in MOTU.
<mako> warp10: ok, so you've been contribuing since october or just as a motu since october?
<persia> I'm especially appreciative of Andrea's efforts for helping with the QA activities that so many shy from.
<warp10> mako: since october just as a MOTU :)
<mako> warp10: on the ord of how many cds is your italian cd shipping project sending?
<mdke> it's limited only from the number of stickers available, I gather
<mdke> from/by
<warp10> mako: not so many indeed. We ship about 20 per month. We expect an increase of requests for Intrepid
 * mako nods
<mdke> totopalma: is that right?
<mako> warp10: which screencasts have you made?
<totopalma> mdke, yes :)
<mdke> totopalma: i thought it was a lot more :(
<warp10> mako: regarding screencast, the project has started from just a few days. I did a couple of test to fine tuning tools and procedures. We expect to start producing more, true screencast in 1 or 2 weeks.
<mako> alright, well the testimonials are very helpful, +1 from me
 * mako nods to warp10 
<mdke> it's a well documented page and having pitti among the recommendations is pretty impressive. I'm happy to +1 base on clear contributions in a number of different areas
<mdke> thanks and keep up the good work
<warp10> thank you mdke :)
<mako> tyche: you're up
 * johnc4510 is here to cheer for tyche! w00t
<mako> MikeB and elmo: warp10 when you get a chance
<tyche> Hi, my name is Craig Eddy.  I am a retired draftsman.  For more information on me, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CraigAEddy or https://launchpad.net/~tyche.
 * boredandblogging cheers for tyche!!
<tyche> I have been a member of the Arizona LoCo Team and the reporter for the Arizona Team newsletter, under johnc4510, since September 12, 2007, and member of and contributor on the UWN since issue #65.
<tyche> I am active in IRC #ubuntu-us-az, and contribute bug reports and comments to launchpad, and respond on the Ubuntu Forums.
 * johnc4510 tyche has done outstanding work with not only the AZ LoCo Team, but also with the UWN. He also has contributed with bug reporting and forum help. He lives the Ubuntu code and is a perfect candidate for membership. I endorse him 100%.
<MikeB> warp10: +1
<posingaspopular> tyche tyche tyche!
<mdke> how is the UWN doing for contributors at the moment?
<boredandblogging> type has done great work for the UWN and helps us get it out every week
<boredandblogging> mdke: we need more help
<johnc4510> yes
<posingaspopular> tyche is also really nice and stayed up late with me every night for TWO weeks straight trying to help me install VirtualBox
<elmo> +1
<johnc4510> translators, and reporters, etc
<elmo> to warp10
 * warp10 smiles
<mako> alright, tyche it looks pretty good
<posingaspopular> omg omg. i know htis is massively offtopic, but there is a toy story three in the works
<tyche> Thanks, mako
<johnc4510> :)
<totopalma> warp10,  congratulations :)
<mdke> posingaspopular: another channel please
<warp10> thank you totopalma! ;)
<mdke> that's a very extensively documented wiki page, and shows plenty of contribution in different areas. I'm happy in particular to see you contributing to the UWN, which is a vital resource. +1 from me
<mdke> thanks tyche and keep it up!
<mako> tyche: you seem have been quietly at work at a bunch of things that are often pretty thankless
<tyche> Thanks mdke
<mako> i especially appreciate the work you've done writing meter summaries and such
<tyche> Yep.  But it's what I'm good at
<johnc4510> mako: agreed
 * mdke nods
<mako> i did that for ubuntu for all the core team meetings for the first six months or so
<mako> and man, it's hard :)
<mako> tyche: so i'm thrilled to give you a +1
<mako> great contributions
<mako> we need more members like you
<tyche> Takes me about 2 hours on a sunday morning, starting about 5:00 AM
<tyche> Thanks, mako
<mako> oh no, mikeb is gone
<tyche> AAAARRRRRGGG!  Hee hee
<mako> he's back :)
<mdke> elmo: tyche?
<johnc4510> yeah
<MikeB> xchat is killing me
<elmo> +1
<tyche> thanks elmo
<MikeB> +1 for tyche
<johnc4510> w00t  congrats tyche   newest ubuntu member
<tyche> thanks, MikeB
<greg-g> well done tyche
<boredandblogging> tyche: congrats!
<tyche> WHEW!! Thanks all, and all my supporters
<michaelramm> tyche: grats!
<greg-g> I'm next on the agenda, here comes the paste:
<greg-g> Hello!  My name is Greg and I am the Founder/Leader of the Michigan LoCo Team (which was approved on Nov. 29th).
<greg-g> My other main area of contribution, aside from leading the Michigan LoCo, is in bug triage: I am a member of the Bug Control team on LP and actively participating in the new 5-a-day program.
<greg-g> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GregGrossmeier  LP: https://launchpad.net/~greg.grossmeier
<greg-g> Any questions?
<greg-g> mako: this is Greg, the person who gave you a ride back to your hotel in Michigan :)
<johnc4510> w00t for greg-g
<greg-g> (if you have time that is)
<mako> ah, hi greg-g ! :)
<mako> thanks for the ride :)
<greg-g> no worries, good meeting you
<anthony> greg-g has chaired an ubuntu-us meeting that I attended, quite well, and like posingaspopular been very helpful in encouraging some of the newer teams as they get started, and giving advice to me as a new team contact.  Also, we all know about his packaging jams.  :)
<rick_h_> ++ for greg. Been an inspiration to a bunch of us in michigan and helped setup the first packaging jam and put together a great bug jam
<posingaspopular> anthony: pm me plz
<boredandblogging> greg-g goes out of his way to encourage new teams
<mdke> greg-g: what events have you been most personally involved in for your local teams?
<greg-g> Well, the team has been doing a lot with packaging Jams
<posingaspopular> i like greg-g, and he is awesome with the midwetri loco
<greg-g> unfortunately I couldn't make the first one due to it being my g/f and I's 3 year anniversary :)
<johnc4510> greg-g: is a great ubuntu member candidate and deserves recognition for all he's done
<greg-g> mostly I am the whip behind the team
<johnc4510> ouch
<mdke> I'd quite like to know more about some specific contributions, just to get an idea of what stuff you do
<mdke> what aspect of your contribution are you most proud of?
<rick_h_> the whole michigan team was his start. He emailed some local LUG guys about putting together a team and put it through. So big credit for that
<greg-g> oh, well.  In addition to working on planning events for the team (release parties, packaging jams) I am also currently trying to work hard on bug triaging to help with the new 5-a-day program and increase my knowledge at the same time
<posingaspopular> mdke: greg-g is usually the one who gets all the details together for the midwest tri-loco team meetings, irc chan time etc.
<greg-g> I am most proud of the fact that the Michigan team was the first team to host a pacakaging Jam and started a trend :)
<greg-g> any other details you would like to know?
<mdke> greg-g: what was your personal involvement in the packaging jam initiative?
<mdke> I can tell you're a team player but I'm just trying to get a grip of some of your individual contributions :)
<greg-g> mdke: planning.  Since I was unable to attend due to the anniversary conflict
<greg-g> also, the coordination of the team's efforts for our presence at Penguicon
<greg-g> which is an ongoing topic at our meetings of course
<greg-g> (our activities will include a room party with demos of Hardy, which will be release 1 week after the con)
<mdke> cool. Ok, well I think that the leader of a well organised and effective team deserves recognition and I think that even if it's not 100% spelt out on your wiki page, your contribution is clear
<mdke> +1 from me, let's see what others think
<greg-g> thankyou mdke
<MikeB> +1 here
<elmo> +1
<nxvl_work> mako: greg-g
<nxvl_work> mdke: can i go while mako shows up?
<nxvl_work> mdke: i'm the next on the agenda
<mdke> nxvl_work: ok
<nxvl_work> I'm Nicolas Valcarcel from Lima PerÃº, i'm member of the Peruvian LoCo Council, and have been involved difusion since 2003, and then i focused myself on Ubuntu, i have gave many talks in local conferences, some workshops at my univesrity and the last months working with the LoCo team making some work on conferences, also i have participate on the Ubuntu Developer Week as a speaker in one talk and co-speaker on another, and contributing to MOTU and
<nxvl_work> Server Team fixing some bugs, traging some others and helping new contributors on what i can. I'm also been recently aproved on the pentesting team and invited to the UDS.
<nxvl_work> My LP page is: https://edge.launchpad.net/~nvalcarcel
<nxvl_work> And my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nxvl
<nxvl_work> my plan is to become a MOTU in a shot time
<mako> well, i'm happy with a +1 based on your work with the michigan team
<mako> alright this i my last one :)
<greg-g> thanks mako
<boredandblogging> greg-g: congrats!
<nxvl_work> i also want to look for the security aspects on the server team
<greg-g> thanks everyone!
<johnc4510> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers
<johnc4510> oops
<mdke> yes I think nxvl_work is the last one
<johnc4510> lol
<johnc4510> greg-g: congrats :)
<ember> mdke i'm here too
<nxvl_work> i'm also interested in make ubuntu community better and nicer for starters
<mdke> ember: I'm afraid we have to draw the line somewhere - the meeting has gone on for too long now
<nxvl_work> so they found a warm, nice and helpful community
 * ScottK2 gives a big +1 for nxvl_work for both his MOTU and server team work.
<norsetto> nxvl_work is a great contributor, helpful and positive, +1, go for it nxvl!
<ScottK2> nxvl_work is someone I can reliably turn to if I need help with something I don't have time to complete by myself.
<mdke> ok nxvl_work has some good recommendations on the wiki page and has clearly done some good work on the development side. good number of patches
<mdke> +1 from me
<mako> ember: sorry, it's almost 3 hours now.  i understand you've waited that long too but as mdke says, we have draw the line
 * mako nods to mdke 
<mako> +1 from me as well
<MikeB> +1 here
<mako> i eneded up reviewing nxvl_work last week
<mako> and was impressed on his ubuntu contributions
<mako> elmo: end the meeting :)
<elmo> +1
<nbliang> can we have the next meeting at a later time than 20:00 UTC? have to wait at around 4am (my time) for the meeting
<mako> nbliang: or much ealier
<mako> so it would be before you go to sleep
<elmo> oh!
<elmo> one tiny last thing
<mako> yes?
<nbliang> ok
<nbliang> mako: thx
<elmo> we breifly discussed changing the team to restricted and pointing folks at the howto-join page
<mako> nbliang: we'll have it at a different time
<elmo> is everyone ok with that?
<mako> elmo: yes, it sounds like a great plan
<elmo> to stop the applications piling up
<mdke> yes, definitely a good thing to clean up the members list
<nxvl_work> thank you all
 * nxvl_work HUGS evetyone
<MikeB> elmo, works for me
<mako> brilliant
<mako> thanks everyone who came
<nbliang> thanks...
<mako> ESPECIALLY thanks to everyone who was patient and we didn't get to
<nbliang> will wai for the next meeting than
<janquark> :)
<mako> we made good progress.. and we've got a new process we're going to implement very soon that will fix this
<mako> nobody will wait more than a couple weeks
<mako> thanks again!
<mdke> I'll echo that
<posingaspopular> thanks to all the members who showed up and voted +1 and for the long meeting :P
<mdke> good night all
<posingaspopular> mako: keep the blogs strong
<nbliang> good morning everybody ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-02-22
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 27 Feb 18:00: Platform Team | 27 Feb 23:00: Education Team | 28 Feb 08:00: Server Team | 29 Feb 01:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 23:00: MOTU | 05 Mar 18:00: Platform Team
<Hobbsee> oh, next friday.  right
<^Crash^> what is the best fast link to this server ?
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-02-24
 * ryanakca waves
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-02-16
<emgent> !schedule rome
<ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about schedule rome
<emgent> @schedule rome
<nhandler> emgent: It doesn't handle the meetings anymore iirc
<nhandler> Look at the Google calendar
<emgent> ya will do, danke.
<nhandler> Did I miss any messages?
<asac> nhandler: in -meeting not for the last 7 hours ;)
<asac> 17
<asac> ;)
<nhandler> asac: ???
<jacob> nhandler: channel has been empty
<nhandler> Is it time for the motu-release meeting?
<DktrKranz> it is, waiting for sistpoty to arrive
<cody-somerville> Wee
<EDavidBurg> chat
<sistpoty> hi, sorry for being late
<DktrKranz> we were waiting for you :)
<iulian> Hello sistpoty.
<nhandler> No problem. ScottK wanted me to pass this message along "I won't be able to make the meeting. Please send my regrets. I may be able to pop in a bit via irc from my phone."
<sistpoty> hi iulian
<iulian> Ouh.
<DktrKranz> oh...
<sistpoty> so let's get started?
<DktrKranz> \o/
 * ScottK-palm2 is sort of here.
<iulian> OK, great.
<sistpoty> \o/
<sistpoty> I guess we're first up with some nhandler grilling?
 * DktrKranz is hungry
<sistpoty> then go ahead DktrKranz :)
 * nhandler hopes he tastes good
<DktrKranz> yum... erm... dpkg :)
<sistpoty> heh
<iulian> I'm not but I can take a piece. ;)
<DktrKranz> nhandler, in your email you stated you can say "no" to people requesting an update. What about if such a request comes from a core-dev?
<DktrKranz> (or a well-known foundation team's member?)
<nhandler> DktrKranz: I have interacted with many core-devs before. I won't be intimidated by them, and their title has no bearing on my decision
<sistpoty> nhandler: just looking at your lp page: what is nUbuntu?
<nhandler> sistpoty: It is a an Ubuntu derivitive that focuses on security tools. emgent could probably provide a lot more info than I could about that
<sistpoty> ahh
<DktrKranz> nhandler, we would manage several requests of package updates for GNOME, KDE, XFCE, and so on. Even if we have delegates, which DE do you usually use? Just to see if we have some non-KDE, non-GNOME guy here :)
<nhandler> I am currently running an Ubuntu live cd. However, since becoming a MOTU, I have been getting involved with the Kubuntu team, and will probably install Kubuntu on my new laptop (once I get it)
<sistpoty> nhandler: you do your ubuntu work from a live-cd? how does that work out?
<ScottK-palm2> :-)
<DktrKranz> nhandler, during last meeting, we decided to block almost every request of NEW packages. With your REVU coordinator hat on, could it be a problem?
<nhandler> sistpoty: I've been using a live cd for a while now, since my laptop died. I have my old home folder backed up on an external hard drive, so I can copy over my settings. But a live cd is not fun
<sistpoty> nhandler: ah, ok
<DktrKranz> blackouts are evil :)
<nhandler> There was talk about actually shutting down REVU to new packages after FF. This has not been decided on yet. However, as long as there is still a method to get important new packages into Ubuntu, I think this would be fine.
<ScottK-palm2> nhandler: You've been around a lot less lately. Will you have time for this?
<nhandler> If that question is regarding my time spent on the Kubuntu team, I would have to disagree. I have still been helping out with the release packaging/backports.
<nhandler> Due to not knowing C++ and some of the other programming skills required, I haven't been able to help with some of the recent stuff that has been going on
<nhandler> But yes, I think I will have enough time to devote to motu-release
<sistpoty> nhandler: let's assume someone would come up with a FFe request for let's say ladr, can you describe how you'd try to assess this?
<Scott-palm> I thought you were mostly here on weekends now, but I may be wrong.  If so, fine.
 * Scott-palm needs to go.
<nhandler> I'm here whenever I'm not in school
<nhandler> When deciding when to accept something, the first thing I will look for is that the FFe contains all of the required information. Without this, it would be more difficult to make an educated decision. After that, I would analyze the changes to see if it is actually worth having them in the repositories at that point. Finally, I would do my best to use all of the information available to me in order to decide whether or not the upload sho
<sistpoty> nhandler: let's say the FFe information is there, the changes don't look too intrusive... anything else you'd consider?
<nhandler> sistpoty: I would look at what testing has been done. Does it build cleanly? Does it run fine? Any known regressions/bugs? Does it do only what it says it does?
<sistpoty> nhandler: let's assume again it builds fine, and the reporter stated that prover9 works as expected... anything else to check in this case?
<nhandler> Do the rdepends still work as expected?
<sistpoty> nhandler: the rdepends (since from the same package only) also work. would you give your ack then?
<nhandler> And you mentioned that the changes don't look too intrusive. Are the changes significant enough to bother applying at this point?
<sistpoty> nhandler: the changes are about 4k big... would that answer your question?
<sistpoty> kb
<sistpoty> (i.e. size of the diff... let's just say a few pages in my vim *g*)
<nhandler> Well, if the changes looked fine to me, the requester tested the package, I tested the package, there were no visible issues in the testing, rdepends worked fine, the patch did everything that it said it did and nothing more, and it built fine, then yes. I would ack it
<sistpoty> nhandler: ok, seems fair enough...
<sistpoty> nhandler: as a side remark, I don't intend to change ladr *g*... but I picked it on purpose, since it's building a shared library
<sistpoty> nhandler: so you should always check for ABI/API breakages there (or ask another team member for input)
<nhandler> Well, since this was hypathetical, I didn't actually pull it up. But I will be sure to ask about libraries (I don't have much experience with them)
<sistpoty> nhandler: sure, that's why we're a team :)
<iulian> OK, so in this case when you're unsure about something please don't hesitate to ask someone from the Release team.
 * DktrKranz looks for sistpoty's library handling session at UDW
<iulian> nhandler: On the other hand, you might want to join #ubuntu-release as well.
<nhandler> iulian: I'll add it to my auto join list ;)
<sistpoty> nhandler: got another question: you mentioned that you're not too proficient with c++... what programming language do you "speak"?
<nhandler> sistpoty: The only language I would consider myself fluent in would be Perl
<DktrKranz> last cycle, we sat there to help archive-admins to approve unapproved uploads, so a good IRC presence during "hot" days is welcome
<nhandler> I can understand other languages, but I can't write them too well
<sistpoty> nhandler: ah, thanks
<iulian> nhandler: C is easy.
<nhandler> iulian: C is on my long todo list of languages to learn
<iulian> Excellent.
<iulian> nhandler: If you'd like I can give you some great tutorials (learnt loads from it).
<nhandler> Any more questions?
<iulian> OK, do we have anything else on our -release TODO list?
<nhandler> iulian: I'm actually learning Java (for school) right now, so I might hold off a little longer on C
<sistpoty> iulian: I guess we should take a shot at the delegates list
<sistpoty> http://paste.ubuntu.com/118916/
 * iulian looks
<nhandler> I also had 2 questions that I was not able to find answers to on the wiki
<nhandler> Can a member of motu-release confirm their own FF exception request? I know for the backport team, they like to have a different member of the team approve it. Does the same go for the motu-release team?
<persia> Ubuntu Mobile doesn't actuallly exist anymore: it was renamed to Ubuntu UMPC, and then dropped.  The Netbook Remix was adopted in it's place (which doesn't necessarily change the selection of delegate).
<DktrKranz> gobuntu? did we have it latest cycle?
<nhandler> I thought we got rid of it
<DktrKranz> me too
<sistpoty> persia: so mobile is netbook remix nowadays? is that s.th. different than MID?
<sistpoty> DktrKranz: no
<persia> Regarding Gobuntu: http://blog.canonical.com/?p=11
<persia> sistpoty, Yes, and Yes.
<sistpoty> thanks persia
<sistpoty> we also didn't have edubuntu last FF
<sistpoty> (and as I wrote, I'm unsure about it's necessary to have a delegation there)
<persia> There might be ancillary packages, as with Ubuntu Desktop or Kubuntu
<sistpoty> persia: do you know if _MMA_ is still active in regards to ubuntu studio?
<jcastro> he's on a break
<sistpoty> jcastro: ah, thanks... who'd be leader of ubuntu studio then atm?
<persia> sistpoty, I'd suggest luisbg as a possible delegate.
<jcastro> I think luis is
<sistpoty> ah, sure, would make sense to me
<sistpoty> ok, anything we should add to the list, or take from the list?
<persia> The TB has mentioned possibly defining other sets of packages that would be grouped for upload, and managed by teams, but I think for next cycle, rather than this cycle.
<DrKranz> (bad network!)
<sistpoty> oh
<sistpoty> persia: well, we've got mozilla team on the list... what other prominent teams are there that exist right now?
<persia> sistpoty, I think none that are both operational and approved.
<sistpoty> ok :)
<sistpoty> thanks persia
<sistpoty> DktrKranz: was just asking, if we should add to the list of delegates or remove from it...
<sistpoty> nhandler, iulian: what do you think?
<nhandler> sistpoty: It looks pretty good to me.
<iulian> Here to, without Gobuntu.
<iulian> s/to/too/
<DktrKranz> I think teams are well represented
<sistpoty> yep :)
<sistpoty> well, and for ubuntustudio should I ask luisbg?
<DktrKranz> +1
<nhandler> Do Standing Feature Freeze exceptions need to be re-approved each cycle?
<iulian> sistpoty: Yes, please do.
<sistpoty> ok
<sistpoty> nhandler: good question... /me takes a look what's actually there
<nhandler> It still says "Feature Freeze exceptions for Hardy"
<nhandler> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StandingFeatureFreeze
<DktrKranz> I'm in favour of reset them, some are not current anymore
<sistpoty> yes, /me also thinks that
<nhandler> Very true DktrKranz. I also think they should need to be re-approved
<iulian> Indeed, the transitions are done.
 * iulian takes a look again.
<sistpoty> hey _MMA_, I've just heard you're taking a break from ubuntu studio development? as we're looking for a delegate for FeatureFreeze and would be asking luisbg then, what do you think?
<Jihui_Choi>  /join #ubuntu-locoteams
<Jihui_Choi> oops
<_MMA_> sistpoty: That's the general plan but I guess if I'm available I can so something. Can it be 2 people?
<sistpoty> _MMA_: would be ok for me... nhandler, iulian, DktrKranz?
<iulian> I'd say yes.
 * DktrKranz is fine
<nhandler> I have no issue with it. But how would we handle cases where the two delegates don't agree?
<_MMA_> nhandler: Though there should be a plan for that, I know for sure it won't happen in this case.
<DktrKranz> I think we should come to a collective agreement
<sistpoty> I hope the delegates would escalate to motu-release then? *g*
<iulian> Heh
<nhandler> sistpoty: I think that would be appropriate
<MK-1> #ubuntu-ko
<sistpoty> and we'd talk to people until everyone agrees :)
<_MMA_> sistpoty: In the end I should be the 2nd choice. If something needs done, *like now* and he isn't around I'm usually lurking.
<sistpoty> _MMA_: excellent!
<Jihui_Choi> where channel should i join for Loco team council meeting? here or #ubuntu-locoteams?
<sistpoty> ok, any final words to the list of delegates? anyone not happy with a delegate in particular?
<nhandler> I'm fine with it
<boredandblogging> its time for the LoCo Council meeting
 * iulian is fine as well.
<iulian> Oh, I didn't even know there is another meeting after this one.
<sistpoty> oh, then let's end the motu-release meeting... thanks everyone for coming :)
<iulian> Thanks.
<sistpoty> (and sorry for being over time)
<DktrKranz> yay!
<boredandblogging> juliux: ping
<boredandblogging> JanC: ping
<_MMA_> Hit me up if there's anything else.
<MK-1> bundo: here
<Jihui_Choi> Hi bundo
<bundo> Hi everyone !
<boredandblogging> we need one more person for LoCo Council quorum
<Jihui_Choi> yes. humm how can we gather?? just wait?
<MK-1> hi
<boredandblogging> lets wait a few minutes
<bundo> Hi boredandblogging  :  I am Korea Loco Team. My name is Kang Bundo
<boredandblogging> bundo: hi, we are just waiting for quorum
<Jihui_Choi> humm..
<boredandblogging> lets wait a few more minutes
<boredandblogging> if not, we'll need to reschedule
<MK-1> hi,
<MK-1> so how long do we have to wait?
<Jihui_Choi> boredandblogging: I see.
<nhasian> hello everyone
<Jihui_Choi> hi nhasian :)
<MK-1> boredandblogging: im here to help bundo and Jihui_Choi with translations
<Jihui_Choi> MK-1: well.. I don't know. but we can wait until UTC 21:00 anyway..
<nhasian> meeting starts in 40 mins yes?
<Jihui_Choi> nhasian: loco council meeting doesn't start yet. we're waiting people.
<MK-1> Jihui_Choi: can i talk to you next room..
<Jihui_Choi> sure
<Jihui_Choi> MK-1: your message is broken. I can't see.
<MK-1> ok.. ill turn on diff. IRC
<bundo> MK-1 You BaBo(Stupid)
<MK-1> -_-)//
<boredandblogging> ok, since we don't have quorum
<boredandblogging> lets postpone the meeting
<MK-1> until when?
<Jihui_Choi> oh no..
<Jihui_Choi> it's 5 am in here.
<Jihui_Choi> I can't wake up again.
<MK-1> ...
<boredandblogging> hopefully we'll be able to reschedule for February
<MK-1> boredandblogging // lets hope so..
<boredandblogging> make sure to subscribe to the LoCoCouncilAgenda wiki page to be notified of the next meeting
<Jihui_Choi> boredandblogging: well.. I can't help anything. Just wait next meeting.
<Jihui_Choi> I see.
<popey> sorry guys :(
<bundo> boredandblogging  I see too
<MK-1> thank you.
<MK-1> so we'll here soon from you guys correct?
<Jihui_Choi> I'm in my office now. and I can't come back to home.
<MK-1> lolz
<bundo> I SeeBal  B,.b
<Jihui_Choi> And now 5:33am.. what shall I do? -_-;
<MK-1> Jihui_Choi: too bad.. then work harder!!!
<Technoviking> hello
<nhasian> hiya
<forumsmatthew> greetings
<ubuntugeek> Hi
<ubuntugeek> Lets get this party started
<Joeb454> :| when did you all get here? lol
 * Technoviking raises da roof
<forumsmatthew> I've been here a bit
<Rocket2DMn> party on
<nhasian> i've been lurking for about an hour
<ubuntugeek> The agenda for those who do not know https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<EDavidBurg> oh hello
<bapoumba> I'm here
<ubuntugeek> First up the brainstorm moderator titles, is Nicolas Deschildre here?
<ubuntugeek> In the past we've discussed this and voted it down. My feelings haven't changed much.
<forumsmatthew> same here
<Technoviking> same here
<jacob> ubuntugeek: I don't think he is, pinged him about 30min ago in -brainstorm with no response. he hasn't said anything about it either, I don't think he knows it is still on the agenda
<ubuntugeek> Ok
<forumsmatthew> that's 60% -1, shall we move on
<jdong> add another -1
<ubuntugeek> Yes, lets move on
<ubuntugeek> We are going to skip yours rocket2dmn and come back
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<ubuntugeek> Next up drubin
<ubuntugeek> Clarity on forums policy for name changes regarding personal information
<jdong> I'd love to follow those links BUT...
<forumsmatthew> the basic deal is that if someone requests that we remove publicly accessible personal info, we do
<drubin> ubuntugeek: can you give me 5 mins?
<ubuntugeek> Sure
<bapoumba> do not we already do that, forumsmatthew ?
<ubuntugeek> We'll keep moving down the list
<forumsmatthew> we'll come back so drubin can join us in 5
<ubuntugeek> techstop, Name and description change to the desktop effects forum.
<forumsmatthew> with the changes we are making right now, this will be easily accomplished by moving everything into General
<ubuntugeek> I think as we grow and we should look at consolidating categories. I think this is a perfect example of one that can be moved into general
<forumsmatthew> will==can
<jacob> I don't think techstop actually knows that items is on the agenda, though i'm happy to speak for it. DE&C is crazy as it is
<Rocket2DMn> I added it for techstop
<Rocket2DMn> I did PM him that I added it though
<ubuntugeek> Perhaps adding more prefixes to accommodate the merges.
<drubin> ubuntugeek: on the prefixes can we get them for ppt ?
<jdong> considering that desktop effects are now a globally standard feature and not some esoteric hack... I think merging it into General makes sense.
<bapoumba> The rational when we created DE&C was when compiz was new
<forumsmatthew> I took a long look earlier and most of the threads in DE don't have anything to do with desktop effects
<jacob> ubuntugeek: i'm curious, what other merges are planned?
<forumsmatthew> now days...
<ubuntugeek> drubin: no, we decided awhile ago that ppt was not getting prefixes
<drubin> ubuntugeek: sorry wasn't in on that meeting :(
<Rocket2DMn> Compiz comes installaed (and enabled i think) by default now, that used to not be the case
<bapoumba> Rocket2DMn, +1
<ubuntugeek> So lets vote on moving desktop effects to general .. +1
<jdong> Rocket2DMn: correct, same with KDE4 KWin effects.
<jdong> +1
<forumsmatthew> +1
<jacob> I think "desktop effects" as a forum should be ditched, but there should probably be a place for theming, styles, etc
<jdong> jacob: yes that would be a nice agenda item; Ubuntu needs more community involvement in artwork :)
<ubuntugeek> OK we will make that change tonight then.
<jdong> s/needs/could benefit from/
<forumsmatthew> jacob, we used to have one for artwork, but it didn't get a lot of traffic
<Technoviking> jacob: there is a art forum, we could make a [theme] prefix
<ubuntugeek> nhasian, are you here?
<nhasian> yes
<forumsmatthew> is it still there? I don't remember...anyway, let's move on
<jacob> forumsmatthew: it's kind of what DE&C is right now, though i'll wait until after these changes you're talking about
<ubuntugeek> The Forum council still hasn't worked out exactly how we are going to approve new members. IN the meantime matthew is going to provide you with a URL to apply at one of the regional membership boards.
<forumsmatthew> this is the url to use to begin the process https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards
 * nhasian faints
<forumsmatthew> you don't have to pick one that you live in, but rather one that has a meeting time that is convenient for you
<ubuntugeek> We apologize.
<nhasian> no worries
<jacob> someone raised concern about the process of membership for the FC as a board. will the process be documented on the wiki along with all of the other boards?
<ubuntugeek> Yes
<bodhizazen> nhasian: We can help you on the BT channel
<forumsmatthew> we will likely only process membership for staff at first
<Rocket2DMn> Granted there are other priorities to take care of, when can we expect the FC to be ready to start with the membership process?
<nhandler> And will an email be sent to one of the -announce mailing lists?
<jdong> jacob: the FC is going to follow up with the CC on hammering out the specific process for membership
<forumsmatthew> Rocket2DMn, when we have the info we need to do so
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, just thought I'd ask
<ubuntugeek> Ok let up on the agenda, Bill Day creation of the law or legal professionals forum.
<ubuntugeek> Bill are you present?
<williamsonday> Hi guys.
<williamsonday> Yes, I am here.
<williamsonday> Bear with me, I don't use IRC much.
<forumsmatthew> no prob
<bapoumba> williamsonday, me neither :)
<williamsonday> I have discussed the proposal on the forums, but I would be happy to give a brief overview if you like.
<Joeb454> oh hi bapoumba :)
<forumsmatthew> I've read what you posted, is there anything you would like to add before we discuss it
<forumsmatthew> yes, please give an overview
<williamsonday> O.K.
<williamsonday> Briefly, I think there are several reasons why a law forum is a good idea and ubuntu forums should host it.
<williamsonday> First, legal professionals represent an important segment of the computer using population, but almost all legal specific programs are windows.
<williamsonday> Ubuntu, as a user friendly desktop, could address  this.
<williamsonday> Not only are lawyers in need of programs for specific kinds of data processing and formatting, but they also have a lot of influence over laws that affect free software.
<williamsonday> It is not a great situation for most lawyers to be unfamiliar with ubuntu and Linux.
<williamsonday> I hope that the Ubuntu community could take the initiative to help bring Linux to lawyers.
<williamsonday> I would be happy to  try to address any questions.
<ubuntugeek> Thanks Bill.
<jacob> williamsonday: you do realize that 90% of the discussions in that proposed forum would be GPL v. BSD debates? :P
<jdong> My concern is a catch-22 one: Is this going to be another section that sees little traffic that we'll have to approach as a merger in 3 months?
<jdong> I think a good alternative is to set up a 3rd party project for this?
<williamsonday> I hope not.  What I am aiming for is not substantive discussion of law but use of LInux as a legal tool.
<ubuntugeek> jdong: agreed and we've already stopped creating 3rd party areas
<jdong> oh oops
<williamsonday> I would welcome any assistance or constructive suggestions re possible alternatives.
<forumsmatthew> we used to have a medical forum for a similar purpose, and the amount of traffic was so small that we ended up merging it back into general
<ubuntugeek> I think the idea is great, however these types of categories haven't worked out well in the past. We've recently been removing old and stale forums and I feel this might be better off as an independent forum.
<forumsmatthew> it might be better to consider a standalone forum or site
<forumsmatthew> it is a good idea that I think could be useful
<jdong> I agree with forumsmatthew; I feel as of now although it's a great idea and I wish you the best of success, it's probably going to be yet-another-section of the forum that needs cleanup in the future.
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: agreed, but I dont think that the UF is the place for this.
<jdong> we've learned over time creating sections doesn't really work all that well
<forumsmatthew> yeah, that's what I'm saying
<williamsonday> My thought was simply that by locating it in the ubuntu forums,  there would already be a natural constituency of people interested in linux.
<bodhizazen> Would there be any utility to a more general forums, say business / professional
<forumsmatthew> most who are interested in this are also members of the Free Software Foundation
<bodhizazen> rather then specific to professions (doctor, lawyer, accounting) ?
<Technoviking> williamsonday: many of the thing you are wanting can be handle in our general section
<forumsmatthew> http://www.fsf.org/
<forumsmatthew> although, this looks like a good fit, too http://www.softwarefreedom.org/
<forumsmatthew> again, I like the main idea
<williamsonday> Technoviking: I understand, but it will be hard to direct lawyers to a general section if you want to get them interested in law specific use.
<ubuntugeek> Let's go ahead and vote on this. -1 from me, while I think its a great idea these types of things haven't worked out well for us in the past. I think it would be better off as a standalone project.
<forumsmatthew> -1
<williamsonday> But I appreciate the URLs and will check them out.
<forumsmatthew> with my best wishes
<Technoviking> -1
<jdong> -1 from me, too
<jdong> though best of luck on your endeavor!
<williamsonday> OK, thanks guys.  I appreciate your consideration.
<ubuntugeek> I need to step out for a second and deal with the forums database
<ubuntugeek> matthew can you take over the last 2 times
<forumsmatthew> williamsonday, you are very welcome
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, yep
<jdong> now on to Snova's banning....
<jdong> (joke!)
<drubin> jdong: you joke....:)
<forumsmatthew> let's go back to drubin and name changes
<Snova> If I'd known, I'd have gotten here earlier.
<drubin> forumsmatthew: It just seems like it goes against the faq
<forumsmatthew> the main thing we (already) do and have as our policy is that we will not change names unless it is for a privacy related reason
<forumsmatthew> there have been other rare exceptions, but very, very few
<drubin> I don't know I just feel people know that the internet is indexed by google, and any information they put out there is their issue
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<forumsmatthew> yet, to make sure that our members feel as comfortable as possible, we will do this
<jdong> drubin: it's surprisingly common, for some reason, for people to accidentally put their e-mail in the username field
<bapoumba> drubin, when requested, we remove all private info and make the account non-accessible (admins do)
<jdong> that's our #1 most common name change request.
<forumsmatthew> bapoumba, thanks, I was about to mention that
<drubin> forumsmatthew: I don't know if it was just that one week where like all those examples wanted their name changed/remove. I thought it would carry one. But it seems to have stoped so don't think it is that important any more
<forumsmatthew> that was an odd week
<drubin> jdong: I fully understand those type of requests. These were memebers that have a post count of like 300 and just get anoyed at the forums policy
<forumsmatthew> do you feel clear enough for us to move on? (not trying to rush you)
<bodhizazen> I think the current policy is fine and do not see a need for a change
<EDavidBurg> It seems like there are lots of runs on the RC with similar threads about how you're all fascists
<drubin> ye forumsmatthew
<EDavidBurg> With certain themes :)
<jdong> ok we good to go?
<forumsmatthew> okay, let's move to another agenda item
<drubin> Thanks for clearing it up
<forumsmatthew> Rocket2DMn, and the expansion idea
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, I think I have text around somehwere, gimme a moment to pastebin it
<forumsmatthew> cool
<bodhizazen> I have a *brief* question, not on the agenda if there is time
<forumsmatthew> bodhizazen, while we wait for rocket, sure
<Rocket2DMn> OK, i think i deleted the text file, but i pulled a pastebin from my history - http://paste.ubuntu.com/95509/
<Rocket2DMn> i think it changed a bit since then, but the idea is generally the same
<forumsmatthew> bodhizazen, hang on, and we will get to your question
<forumsmatthew> reading rocket's url
<bodhizazen> Rocket2DMn: IMO you need to remove "hackintosh", use something more professional ;)
<jdong> isn't "hackintosh" the technical term used by the community?
<Joeb454> OS X86
<Joeb454> or OSx86
<jacob> or just add quotes around the phrase
<bodhizazen> jdong: probably, but I think OSX or some such looks better
<ubuntugeek> OK back
<forumsmatthew> fyi, the forums are up. staff can see the original (prettier looking) version here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1025963
<ubuntugeek> Forums are online
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, well I was asked to put it on the agenda since the admins thought it would be better if it were more closely integrated rather than a standalaone thread
<jdong> does the forum guidelines not cover EULA violations adequately?
<jdong> I don't like listing out specifics in the policy
<jdong> it leads to a lot of "well it doesn't exactly say X is not allowed" quibbles
<ubuntugeek> jdong: agreed
<Rocket2DMn> jdong, there i no specific mention of a "EULA" in the policy, and the origina lthread i wrote was designed to specifically name some of the common things we see
<bodhizazen> +1 jdong
<jdong> perhaps we just need to add a "respect software license agreements" sort of thing
<jacob> perhaps a link from the policy to the thread to list some examples?
<jdong> but that falls IMO under "illegal activities" by our interpertation
<forumsmatthew> jdong, I agree. I think we cover this in the official document. Perhaps posting this somewhere as an unofficial explanation would be okay, but after thinking about it for 8 weeks or so, I don't think we need to add it in the official FCoC
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: agreed
<forumsmatthew> our rules are broad enough to cover this stuff already
<Rocket2DMn> OK, there is more in the thread than EULA violations, too, in the later part of the thread
<forumsmatthew> so this is more of an unofficial clarification
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<EDavidBurg> Well, gotta go. Nice meeting with you
<jdong> yes I am fine with this being linked to as an unofficial clarification if quibbles come up
<bodhizazen> can't link if it is in chit-chat
<forumsmatthew> my feeling is that when we make lists, the grumpies take it as a way to define what is not covered and abuse the spirit of the rules
<Rocket2DMn> bodhizazen, hehe, yeah i posted it there for feedback first
<jdong> forumsmatthew: +1
<bodhizazen> Although detailed lists like this are very nice Rocket2DMn , and you spend a lot of time on them, they create problems
<Rocket2DMn> So when I get around to posting it as a thread, where would you like it placed?
<Technoviking> forumsmatthew: +1
<ubuntugeek> I think the forums CoC is pretty clear and we have methods to deal with these types of situations. I think it's a great piece of work and alot of time was put into it. However, I am not comforatble linking this from the Coc. Our policy is pretty strong, so posting this or adding it to the official -1
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i definitely see the point on lists
<forumsmatthew> Rocket2DMn, I don't think we actually need to post it. If you want to, you can put it in the Cafe, but I think it will probably cause us more problems in the long run...
<Rocket2DMn> Ok
<ubuntugeek> Lets ago ahead and vote on this item, we all have a understanding of what it is.
<Rocket2DMn> It doesn't need to be posted if you guys don't want it to be, the time put into it is not a problem either way
<jdong> -1 on inclusion in the FCoC
<forumsmatthew> nicely done, but after thinking about it, I'm -1 on posting it
<Technoviking> -1
<ubuntugeek> -1
<forumsmatthew> Okay, is Lord Xeb here?
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, thanks for looking at it anyway :)
<ubuntugeek> No problem :)
<forumsmatthew> last call for LX
<bodhizazen> o/ (again if time allows)
<nhasian> i have a question too when your finished with all the agenda items
<forumsmatthew> okay, whatcha got, bodhizazen
<jdong> that's a shame; I really wanted to see him here.
<bodhizazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=511315
<ubuntugeek> :)
<bodhizazen> is there a section in the Coc that covers malicious code ?
<forumsmatthew> I would include that under such things as illegal activity or being polite
<bodhizazen> It surfaces from time to time , but I could not find a specific policy
<Rocket2DMn> I do like the idea of a short number about intentionally damaging computer systems
<bapoumba> Along these lines, I could not find jdong's announcement the other day (with the forums search).
<jdong> I agree, it falls under illegal activities in a LOt of jurisdictions
<forumsmatthew> it certainly could be interpreted as not being kind, gentle, or using etiquette
<jdong> and it is totally against "be respectful" in any interpetation
<ubuntugeek> The question is we all know what category it falls under so do we really need to define it:?
<bodhizazen> The grey area is when people wish to discuss these codes
<bodhizazen> I tend to jail them and ask (In PM) they move the discussion elsewhere, which is when the request comes up for forums policy
<forumsmatthew> I would lean toward allowing a discussion of code like this, provided clear warnings and disclaimers are made and it isn't being done maliciously
<jdong> well I've expressed my opinion on discussions of these things before:
<bodhizazen> So If I can just use ilegal activity / be polite, I am OK
<jdong> I am fine with it if discussed in an educational manner without intention to abuse the code in any way.
<ubuntugeek> jdong and matthew: agreed
<jdong> it's the staff's discretion to draw the line
<bodhizazen> I take it case by case
<jdong> exactly
<forumsmatthew> that's it
<bodhizazen> thank you ;)
<bodhizazen> and can we revive jdong 's announcement please ?
<drubin> +1
<jacob> bodhizazen: this one? http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54
<bodhizazen> yes
<bapoumba> it does not come up in searches
<forumsmatthew> we're looking
<drubin> "November 20th, 2007 until December 21st, 2008 "
<bodhizazen> thank you ;)
<forumsmatthew> it will be back up momentarily
<ubuntugeek> It
<ubuntugeek> its backup
<ubuntugeek> :)
<drubin> thanks
<bapoumba> thanks ubuntugeek :)
<forumsmatthew> nhasian, what did you have?
<nhasian> I wanted to ask, do the forums have enough moderators?  or are you looking for more help in that area as well?
<forumsmatthew> we are doing well at the moment
<forumsmatthew> thanks
<nhasian> i'm getting blocked at every turn :-P
<Joeb454> /ignore nhasian >:)
<ubuntugeek> We might be looking for new staff in the near future :)
<nhasian> i'll keep my eyes open.  thanks
<ubuntugeek> Does anyone else have anything else?
<Technoviking> ubuntugeek: one thing
<ubuntugeek> Sute
<ubuntugeek> Sure
<forumsmatthew> what's up
<Technoviking> what should we do about the mailing list? The spam keeps a comming
<drubin> Technoviking: don't put your email address as address@server.com on a public web page.
<ubuntugeek> I think we need to change the email address if we can
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<Technoviking> drubin: someone signed the forums council meeting list to hundreds of spam list
<drubin> sounds like a gumpy banned user
<ubuntugeek> Techno: lets see if we can get someone to reply to the email you sent out earlier.
<drubin> :(
<Technoviking> ubuntugeek: ok, coolness
<ubuntugeek> Yep
<ubuntugeek> OK, anything else before we call it?
<ubuntugeek>  -- end meeting
<nhasian> thats a wrap
<ubuntugeek> Thanks everyone for coming
<forumsmatthew> ciao, baby
<bapoumba> Bye everyone !
<Rocket2DMn> Cool, thanks guys
<bodhizazen> w00t :)
<Joeb454> thanks al
<Joeb454> all :)
<Snova> Wow.
<jacob> 52 minutes must be some sort of record
 * jacob runs
<Snova> This place sure empties out quickly...
<ubuntugeek> :)
<bodhizazen> ubuntugeek: thanks for all the hard work you put in on the forums, keep up the good work, and please don't burn out ;)
<ubuntugeek> bodhi :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-02-17
<plars> join #ubuntu-testing
<henkjan> !schedule
<ubottu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<kirkland> o/
<kirkland> o\
<sommer> yo
<nijaba> \o
 * mathiaz waves
<nealmcb> \o
<ScottK> o\
<mathiaz> let's get the server team meeting started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Koon> o~
<nijaba> ~o~
<soren> !"#Â¤
<mathiaz> once everyone stopped dancing we can proceed to today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090210
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<mathiaz> sommer: how is doc.ubuntu.com going?
<sommer> mathiaz: well, most of the new sections are done
<sommer> mathiaz: and most of the bugs are fixed
<sommer> some reviews would be cool :)
<sommer> mathiaz: I did have a question about the OpenLDAP DIT?
<mathiaz> sommer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyServerGuide lists all the sections that needs review
<sommer> yep
<mathiaz> sommer: what's your question about the DIT?
<sommer> mathiaz: is it going to be part of the slapd package?  or I guess how is the base going to be setup?
<mathiaz> sommer: for jaunty nothing changes
<sommer> mathiaz: because I think it should simplify the ldap section
<mathiaz> sommer: I'll try to get a new upstream version of openldap uploaded before FF
<sommer> mathiaz: oh, I thought there was going to be something
<mathiaz> sommer: well - nothing more than what was already there
<mathiaz> sommer: ie a very basic tree structure.
<sommer> mathiaz: I see, that works... answers my question, thanks
<mathiaz> sommer: great. Anything else apart asking for reviews of the new sections?
<sommer> mathiaz: nope, that should be it
<mathiaz> sommer: oh - is doc.ubuntu.com up-to-date?
<sommer> mathiaz: ah, I don't think it is yet, but I did hear back from mdke and he's working on it
<mathiaz> sommer: ok great.
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Postfix and Dovecot integration
<MootBot> New Topic:  Postfix and Dovecot integration
<ivoks> right on time :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: good work on that one.
<lamont> \o/
<ivoks> mathiaz: it's not done yet :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: there are still some things to be fixed
<ivoks> mathiaz: we have one bug and couple of issues
<mathiaz> A post on the ubuntuserver blog has been published: http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/an-improved-mail-server-stack-in-jaunty-dovecot-and-postfix-integration/
<ivoks> i've prepared a debdiff, but i would like a review on it, since this is my first binary-indep package
<mathiaz> lamont: ScottK: do you have comments on the new dovecot-postfix package?
<ScottK> mathiaz: I haven't had a chance to really look at it.
<lamont> ditto
<ivoks> don't, untill new version is uploaded :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: attach it to a bug, and subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsor to ask for sponsorship
<ivoks> will do
<mathiaz> ivoks: apart from testing is there anything else to be done on this topic for jaunty?
<ivoks> not really
<ivoks> there are plans for jaunty+1, but that's another story
<ivoks> since we are in FF
<mathiaz> ivoks: sure - where are these plan kept?
<ivoks> nowhere atm
<mathiaz> ivoks: is there a wiki page somehwere?
<ivoks> not yet
<ivoks> basicaly, integrating amavis with these two
<ivoks> and myabe having a 'supported' webmail infrastructure
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - it may be worth creating a wiki page under w.u.c/ServerTeam/MailServer
<ivoks> good idea
<mathiaz> ivoks: as a braindump page to keep track of interesting ideas
<mathiaz> ivoks: just bullet points - the interesting ideas can then be turned into specs for the next cycle
<ivoks> right
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to create a wiki page for ideas about improving the mail server task
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to create a wiki page for ideas about improving the mail server task
<mathiaz> ivoks: ScottK: anything else to report in the mail server area for Jaunty?
<ivoks> it will rock.
<ivoks> :)
<ScottK> It might be worth a mention that dkim-milter now uses unbound for DNS.
<ScottK> Unbound is a relatively new DNS library that supports DNSSEC.
<ScottK> Also just as a warning, clamav 0.95 is due out soon.
<ScottK> It, of course, breaks all the rdepends.
<mathiaz> ScottK: hare you blogged about it? IIRC I saw something mentioning about it
<ScottK> Yes
<mathiaz> ScottK: it may have been in the changelog though.
<ScottK> They promised though that this is the one true interface redesign and they won't have to do it again.
<ScottK> They've never promised this before.
<ScottK> So expect some post-FF fun with this one.
<mathiaz> ScottK: ok - we'll see how things will turn out.
<mathiaz> anything else to add on this front?
<ScottK> In related news clamav 0.94.2 is now available in hardy-backports
<ScottK> We're about ready to push it to dapper-backports too.
<ScottK> That's it.
<mathiaz> ScottK: great - thanks for the good work!
<mathiaz> ivoks: ^^ !
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Power management
<MootBot> New Topic:  Power management
<mathiaz> kirkland: anything new on this front?
<mathiaz> ok - kirkland seems to have lost power
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] virtualization
<MootBot> New Topic:  virtualization
<soren> \o/
<mathiaz> soren: what's new there?
<soren> Lots of stuff going on. We've got a very fresh kvm, libvirt, virt-manager (currently uninstallable due to old virtinst... working on it)..
<Brazen> yippee
<soren> ...I'm working on some updates for VMBuilder. Among the new things is support for VMWare ESXi.
<soren> ..I hope to manage to rework a few things that need some love before FF. One thing I'd like to do is to make it able to build for multiple hypervisors in the same run.
<soren> Also, we've been pushing a lot of cloud computing stuff.
<soren> A month ago (or thereabouts), I uploaded OpenNebula, and we're currently working hard to get Eucalyptus uploaded before FeatureFreeze.
<mathiaz> soren: are there plans to blog about all this new things?
<soren> Eucalyptus has a lot of Java dependencies, so it has been a bit of a rough ride, but upstream is very happy to work with us and are making excellent progress.
<soren> mathiaz: Just after featurefreeze, yes.
<mathiaz> soren: or give an overview about all these new things?
<soren> Yes.
<soren> I want people to test all of this much more, so I'll be posting about clever ways you can use OpenNebula for testing (I'd like to work with you on that).
<mathiaz> soren: awesome - we'll have to wait for next week to get all details then:)
<soren> I've been a bit hesitant to blog about Eucalyptus, since it's still vapourware.
<soren> But eucalyptus is in the archive now..
<soren> Most of it's build-dependencies are, too, so we're inches away from a usable package :)
<soren> Koon is doing fantastic work on the Java dependencies.
 * soren hugs Koon
<soren> s/it's/its/ a few lines ago..
<soren> Hmm... I think that's all for now. I'll be blogging about stuff as it becomes available.
 * ivoks claps
<mathiaz> soren: awesome. Thanks for giving this short status update.
<soren> Certainly
<nealmcb> wow
<sommer> soren: should we have info in the serverguide about the cloud stuff, or is it mainly ec2 at this point?
<kirkland> mathiaz: sorry, my network dropped;  back now
<soren> sommer: We definitely should.
<zul> we cant mention the ec2-ami-tools in the eucalpytus stuff though
<soren> sommer: Things should be stabilizing enough within the next week for it to actually make sense to start writing docs for it :)
<sommer> soren: sounds good, I'll be patient
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on then
<sommer> zul: gotcha, we'll just make it generic
<mathiaz> since we'll have to wait for FF to get a good overview of the new virtualization features in jaunty :)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Power management
<MootBot> New Topic:  Power management
<mathiaz> kirkland: now that you're back - any news on this front?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i have pwrkap and powerman are two new packages, added to the archive today
<kirkland> mathiaz: powernowd has been added to the server seed, to enable cpu freq scaling by default on ubuntu servers
<kirkland> mathiaz: pm-utils and ethtool have been added to the server-ship seed, which are what's needed for suspend/hibernate and resume by WoL
<kirkland> mathiaz: as well as wakeonlan, promoted to main, and on the server-ship seed
<kirkland> mathiaz: i need to write up some instructions on how to test this
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm interested in feedback on hardware where suspend/hibernate can be verified as working
<kirkland> mathiaz: hw which is *not* working, i'm interested in that too... but we probably won't focus on fixing those until next cycle
<mathiaz> kirkland: great - so the current plan for jaunty is to have powernowd installed by default and all the other suspend/hibernate components available from the cd?
<kirkland> mathiaz: correct
<kirkland> mathiaz: suspend is really cool, btw.
<kirkland> mathiaz: for my home network, i created a ssh wrapper, which pings first to see if alive
<kirkland> mathiaz: if not, sends a wakeonlan, waits 3 seconds, and ssh's again
<kirkland> mathiaz: my machines wake from suspend when i need them :-)
<nealmcb> sweet
<kirkland> mathiaz: and it only takes about 3 seconds for them to wake up which is lot faster than ~60seconds to boot
<kirkland> mathiaz: i put a power meter on them too
<mathiaz> kirkland: awesome!
<kirkland> mathiaz: running, they're about 50W-80W (depending on cpu freq, load, hd, cd, etc)
<kirkland> mathiaz: suspended, they're at about 11w
<mathiaz> kirkland: that seems like a good topic for a blog post
<mathiaz> kirkland: a good use case for supsend/resume for servers
<kirkland> mathiaz: cool, will do.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to blog about using suspend/resume for servers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to blog about using suspend/resume for servers
<nealmcb> ubuntu - saving energy and the climate!
<kirkland> penguins
<nealmcb> lol
<Brazen> I don't suspend, but I do set hdparm to power down the harddrives...
<ivoks> my server doesn't do suspend :(
<mathiaz> ivoks: did you report it to kirkland ?
<ivoks> kirkland: fix it
<ivoks> mathiaz: just did :)
<kirkland> ivoks: let me set up a wiki page to track this
<mathiaz> kirkland: how do you keep track which hw is works/doesn't?
<kirkland> ivoks: i'll ping you to fill in your info
<ivoks> kirkland: sure
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm going to do it by wiki, for starters
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - one wiki page seems a good place to start.
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'll link off of the laptop suspend page
<mathiaz> kirkland: ah ok - there is a suspend page for laptop already.
<ivoks> another way of waking up server is IPMI
<Brazen> There's also multi-core power savings: 'echo 1 > /sys/devices/system/cpu/sched_mc_power_savings'
<ivoks> any chance to see ipmitool in main?
<Brazen> and laptop-mode, which I do use on my server: 'echo 5 > /proc/sys/vm/laptop_mode'
<kirkland> ivoks: i'm not too familiar with ipmi
<ivoks> dell servers support ipmi; i'm not sure about wake on lan
<mathiaz> ivoks: ipmitools aren't part of openipmi?
<ivoks> mathiaz: no, ipmitool can use openipmi, but doesn't depend on it (it can use real hardware)
<mathiaz> apparently no
<ivoks> openipmi is just support for ipmi on local machine
<mathiaz> ivoks: does ipmitool provide cmd lines that openipmi can't?
<ivoks> ipmitool can be used to connect to other machines
<ivoks> mathiaz: yes; serial over lan, for example
<mathiaz> nijaba: would ipmitool be useful in main?
<ivoks> with openipmi you can't do anything outside local machine
<ivoks> they don't exclude each other
<nijaba> mathiaz: i would definitely think so
<mathiaz> ok - we can always move ipmitool to main after FF
<mathiaz> to get started, a MainInclusionReport has to be written
<ivoks> right, but it's not being developed for 2 years :/
<mathiaz> ivoks: hm - right.
<mathiaz> ivoks: if upstream is not very active it may not be worth
<mathiaz> ivoks: and we can't really do anything about it :/
<ivoks> true
<ivoks> sorry, my bad
<ivoks> there are new releases
<ivoks> http://sourceforge.net/projects/ipmitool/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://sourceforge.net/projects/ipmitool/
<mathiaz> ivoks: anyway - we can always think about it after FF
<ivoks> ok
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<mathiaz> anything else to add?
<sommer> mathiaz: there was that reply about an Ubuntu Directory Service
<mathiaz> sommer: right - I was going to reply to point out to the ubuntu-directory@ ml list and LP team
<sommer> ah, that works :)
<mathiaz> sommer: and also mention that we're about to enter FF so now is not the most appropriate time to start a discussion for jaunty
<sommer> true... I didn't have anything else
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on to the last item on the agenda:
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<ivoks> +
<sommer> sure
<mathiaz> ok - then.
<mathiaz> see you all next week, same time, same place
<mathiaz> get ready for FF and make jaunty rock!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:59.
<nijaba> thanks for hosting mathiaz
<sommer> later all
 * smb_tp settles down
<pgraner> Hello All! Time for the kernel team meeting
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * rtg_ waves
 * apw phases in ...
 * lieb here
 * amitk arriveth
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels
<smb_tp> Greg keeps me busy.
<pgraner> Intrepid ....
<pgraner> smb_tp: how are we looking?
<smb_tp> Anyhow, for Intrepid I am done with .17 and try to get this uploaded next day before Greg comes with .18
<pgraner> smb_tp: when do we hit the 4 month cutoff for Intrepid?
<smb_tp> End of this month
<smb_tp> I'd say.
<pgraner> smb_tp: ok, so .18 might not make it then...?
 * rtg_ agrees
<apw> i think we mooted by beta freeze
<smb_tp> Not completely no. Depends on the time scale
<pgraner> smb_tp: how does Hardy look?
<smb_tp> Also near upload. I added a few things including some xen patches and the vmware tsc updates
<smb_tp> So this time both hardy and intrepid will bump abi
<cking> sorry, running late
<smb_tp> Intrepid again
<smb_tp> Unfortunately I am still fighting to catch the Aspire bug on Hardy, but this will have to get in after that. Actually by the nature of it it might just resolve itself
<pgraner> Anythings else for this topic?
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty
<pgraner> Reminder Feature Freeze is the 19th (this week)
<pgraner> I'd like to do a quick rundown of the big features to see where we are:
<pgraner> lieb: kerneloops & crashdump?
<lieb> have to test running non-root.  no one else does that config.
<lieb> crashdump, its a bigger problem req updates to 3 packages
<lieb> turns out the kexec kernel also oom panics
<lieb> ;(
<pgraner> lieb: status of MIR?
<apw> how big is the 'crash dump window' by default?
<lieb> pgraner, awaiting my test results +debdiff
<lieb> apw, I'd have to check.
<pgraner> lieb: we are coming down to the wire, we need to get this locked up ASAP. This should be your #1 priority
<pgraner> lieb: do you need help?
<lieb> it is.  the kexec stuff will probably not make it due to too many packages
<lieb> the kerneloops stuff should be settled today once I do web sumit testting to confirm
<pgraner> lieb: what packages specifically needs to be updated?
<lieb> no more code, just re-working the debian package to ubuntu (init scripts) cuz they don't do it either
<pgraner> lieb: is that something we can get the foundations team to help with?
<lieb> wrt kerneloops, just the one.  wrt kexec, the kernel (or whatever configs the kdump image), makedump
<lieb> crash, and (possibly) kexec-tools
<lieb> pgraner, maybe but what is really needed is per the uds topic, these tools/daemons need closer proj mgmt coupling w/ the kernel
<lieb> I mentioned that at the sprint but I haven't had time to compose the web page yet
<apw> we arn't going to change the coupling at this late stage in the jaunty cycle i don't recon
<pgraner> lieb: I'm having a hard time understanding why this is so difficult, we can take this offline\
<lieb> apw, that is true.
<lieb> pgraner, ok
<pgraner> apw: how are we on suspend/resume?
<apw> we are starting to get some real user reports now
<apw> i am monitoring those separatly from the normal bugs
<apw> and trying to get some feedback to every one
<apw> there is a bunch of people who are reporting things because apport
<apw> woke up, but who don't really know what it means.  not sure
<apw> how we will handle the ones where they arn't capable of helping us yet
<pgraner> did you notice an uptick once it hit planet.ubuntu?
<apw> was that what it wa
<apw> was, i am also seeing people sliding over to jaunty
<apw> in general and triggering the reports
<apw> so far its about 5 a day
<pgraner> good deal
<apw> i'll have a better feel by the end of the week
<apw> we have done some more work on the apport support
<apw> to get more information from the users system without needing
<apw> to talk to them, and also helping make the reports easier to sift
<pgraner> apw: great for next week can you give us a rundown of what the prob look like and how many etc...?
<apw> ogasawara, i should note that the bugs now have apport-kerneloops, resume and _one_of_ suspend or hibernate now
<apw> pgraner, sure thing, most right now are getting a cut-n-paste response
<ogasawara> apw:  good, that'll make searching easier
<apw> as they have 0 information on what they were doing.  whenwe have interacted with a few
<apw> more we'll know better
<pgraner> apw: ack, good deal
<cking> apw, you capturing hibernate issues - i thought it was just suspend/resume?
<apw> the testing stuff is just suspend, but the apport stuff detects both
<apw> and differentiates them in the bugs as reported (now)
<cking> ahah
<pgraner> apw: one more... vanilla kernel builds... what the status, and how are we on ppa hosting?
<apw> i am seeing an uptick in those reports
<apw> vanilla builds are now up to date, latest of each tree is built
<rtg_> we never planned to PPA host them.
<apw> in the ~apw version on kernel.  the old one on people now points there
<pgraner> rtg_: sabdfl wants them in a ppa
<apw> rtg is now testing the more official kernel-ppa user for them
<pgraner> rtg_: for the ease of end user testing
<apw> i haven't had time to test loading them into a PPA yet
<rtg_> hmm
<apw> but the thought there was to see if we could keep just the latest of each in a PPA
<apw> not try anything clever to get them all in
<rtg_> apw: in order to do so, we have to upload a source package
<apw> but that is not started yet
<apw> rtg_ yeah, but with the lpia experience under my belt, i think i know waht needs twiddling
<apw> to get at least one of each into a ppa.  anyhow, we committed to trying it and i have that on my todo
<apw> hope to be able to report on that next week
<rtg_> its the package namig thats gonna be  PITA
<apw> yes.  i think as long as we only keep the latest per release
<apw> ie a .24 in hardy, a .27 in intrepid and a .28 in jaunty
<apw> then we may be able to shove them all into a ppa
<apw> beyond that, you know what you are doing and can install a .deb
<apw> from the kernel-ppa web site
<rtg_> k
<apw> as i say its got to be investigated, and it may be
<apw> 'to do that we need these 3 things from a PPA please'
<apw> so it may be a KK think
<apw> thing
<rtg_> apw: we're also gonna have to get some storage exceptions. these kernels start to eat a lot of space
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Bugs
<pgraner> ogasawara: what are the top ones this week?
<apw> rtg_, yeah speacially as we have had to keep the source
<ogasawara> so the majority are from previous weeks . . .
<ogasawara> from last week bug 326891, bug 255886, and bug 323256 - all got feedback
<apw> we didn't make much dent in the previous 2 weeks worth which dropped week-1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 326891 in linux "2.6.27.11 kernel breaks r8169 support for rtl8102e" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/326891
<ubottu> Bug 255886 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/255886 is private
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 323256 in linux "2.6.27-11 Intel Ethernet e100e Remains active after shutdown" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/323256
<smb_tp> The e1000e is looked after by inter and can be worked around
<smb_tp> intel, even
<ogasawara> there are some older ones marked as High:
<ogasawara> bug 323134
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 323134 in linux "oopses with sr0 in armel versatile image" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/323134
<ogasawara> ogra confirmed though that if he disabled CONFIG_BLK_DEV_SR oops went away
<pgraner> ogasawara: are we tagging the arm bugs differently?
<ogasawara> pgraner: I haven't been but can start
<apw> i do think it would helpful to have them marked
<pgraner> ogasawara: amitk would that help you?
<ogra> ogasawara, thats fixed partially, amitk made it a module  ... though now it oopses if the module is loaded
<ogra> so i think we need to drop it completely
<amitk> pgraner: yes it would help to have arm bugs tagged separately
<amitk> ogra: noted
<apw> ogasawara, could we colour them different or something for background
<ogasawara> apw: yup, am planning on coloring regressions already, so would be a similar change
<apw> always one step ahead of me
<amitk> or editing the summary to add [arm]?
<ogasawara> amitk: I'll edit the summary/title and tag them "arm"
<amitk> ogasawara: thanks
<ogasawara> listing just a few other bugs . . . bug 322879 is another 2.6.27-11 regression
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 322879 in linux "Verizon CDMA card no longer works" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/322879
<ogra> amitk, you shouldnt say [noted] .... you should say ogra you goddamn slacker, get your ass up and write that in the bug :P
<ogasawara> along with bug 319840 (hardy regression)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 319840 in linux "Kernel panic when attempting to netboot hardy 20090119 on HP Proliant ML350 G5" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/319840
<amitk> ogra: whatever you said ^^^^
<amitk> :)
<ogra> :)
<pgraner> ogasawara: are the bugs assigned to individuals are still with kernel-team?
<apw> i wonder if there is milage to keeping the regressions in a new list with the this weeks ones, or always keep them on 'this week'
<apw> so they don't slide down and get lost
<apw> keeping them on 'this week regardless of week might work nicly
<pgraner> apw: good point
<ogasawara> pgraner: bugs are no longer assigned to kernel-team, and is currently the devs responsibility to take ownership (is assign it to themselves)
<ogasawara> apw: I was thinking it would be better to pull regressions out into their own section
 * pgraner passes on ogasawara's reminder to take ownership of the ones she put out today :-)
<apw> ogasawara, that would work just as well as long its at the top
<apw> they are the most important bugs for smb_tp and his kin
 * ogasawara nods
 * smb_tp agrees
<pgraner> ogasawara: Anything else on bugs?
<ogasawara> pgraner: there are few other high ones but I want to get them to test latest Jaunty first.  I'll raise them in next weeks meeting if necessary.
<pgraner> ogasawara: ack, thanks
<pgraner> Moving on then
<pgraner> Since sconklin is out today we will skip LPIA, if anyone has questions or issues take it to the list pls...
<pgraner> amitk: armel ... how goes it?
<pgraner> [TOPIC] armel
<MootBot> New Topic:  armel
<amitk> versatile and iop4xx (slug) are now working
<amitk> ogra beat me into fixing the kernels for both
<pgraner> amitk, ogra: do we have instructions for loading the image up anywhere? I have a few slugs I could test
<amitk> I've left iop32x and orion5x flavours as 'don't cares' for now since there isn't a whole lot of community
<pgraner> amitk: ACK
<amitk> pgraner: ogra is doing final testing now and should write up a wiki page soon
<amitk> that's it from me
<pgraner> ogra: let me know when you have it done :-)
<pgraner> amitk: great thanks
<pgraner>  [TOPIC] Open discussion
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<rtg_> CRDA will start appearing with the latest linux-meta upload. Everyone should whine if their wireless croaks.
<pgraner> rtg_: brace for impact :-)
<rtg_> no, bend over and spread 'em
<ogra> pgraner, prob is that OOM kicks in midway through the installer
<pgraner> ogra: ouch
<ogra> the kernels boot though, but iÃm still trying to determine how to make d-i work in 30M
<rtg_> ogra: use less memory.
<ogra> or how debian even does it
<ogra> rtg_, :P
<pgraner> ogra: just put it on a diet
<pgraner> Anything else?
<pgraner> I'll take the silence as a no... in that case...
<pgraner> apw: both rtg & I will be traveling next Tues can you run the meeting?
<apw> sure
<pgraner> [ACTION]apw to run next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received: apw to run next meeting
<pgraner> In that case same day, time & channel next week.
<pgraner> Thanks everyone!
<apw> tll then
<amitk> bye
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:44.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-02-18
<liw> I guess we're about to start, so... hi
<robbiew> hi
<robbiew> :)
 * mvo__ waves
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
 * robbiew just realized there's a meeting here in 30min...so short meeting today :)
<cjwatson> afternoon
<evand> hi-ya
 * slangasek waves
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:30. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> sorry for not sending out an agenda
<TheMuso> np
<robbiew> been trying to muddle through the email and action items from the past two sprints
<robbiew> I'm thinking with FF tomorrow, we can probably go around the "room"
<robbiew> to see if anyone has any issues
<robbiew> or concerncs
<robbiew> concerns
<robbiew> liw: does computer janitor look good?
<liw> robbiew, not entirely -- I am not sure I will get the UI changes done before FF :( (I've spent most of today fighting my laptop, but that's not an excuse, I should've done that UI changes much earlier)
<liw> robbiew, other than that, c-j is looking reasonably good, we're preparing c-j and update-manager uploads with mvo for tonight
<robbiew> liw: okay, thanks.  will c-j be installed automatically in Jaunty?
<robbiew> ie, by default
<liw> robbiew, nope; the ubuntu-desktop mailing list vetoed that
<robbiew> hmm...ok
<robbiew> that's unfortunate
<cjwatson> eek, first I heard of that
<robbiew> but not in our control
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2009-February/001951.html
<robbiew> when did the "veto" occur?
<cjwatson> that doesn't seem to be as strong as a veto
<liw> cjwatson, should I have escalated it to you after pitti was negative?
<cjwatson> probably not necessary, I was just a bit surprised
<liw> cjwatson, hmm, I asked pitti further questions on irc, and didn't get a sense of a possibility of a change to a positive result... perhaps I should've pushed harder
<cjwatson> if it's part of update-manager, then perhaps the facility can be on the system but not exposed in the UI by default, and that would make it easy to run after upgrades
<robbiew> cjwatson: +1
<liw> the plugin mechanism is going to be in u-m tonight, and some of the plugins will be shared; the c-j ui and some other plugins will be in a different package, and not installed by default
<mvo__> isn't it a tool that should be run in the middle of the life-cycle of distro use? I mean, update-manager tries to tidy up during the upgrade
<robbiew> liw: so will it be used as Martin suggested in u-m?
<cjwatson> but I agree with Lars that not all of this is going to make sense purely after upgrades
<cjwatson> liw: what date was the IRC discussion, so I can go back and review the logs?
<liw> cjwatson, let me grep
<robbiew> ok...moving on
<robbiew> evand: any concerns/issues/problems/complaints..etc :)
<robbiew> should I take silence as a "no"?
<evand> robbiew: No really major concerns or issues.  The oem ID stuff is basically done, I just need to rip out the old code.  jaunty-ubiquity-usability is mostly done there's just a few minor items that I might be able to knock off, and I've been keen to get some last minute suggestions from mpt in.  The slideshow work was deferred as Julian's team didn't have time for it.
<robbiew> cool
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> slideshow work deferred yet again...:(
<evand> I'm also hoping to get one more usb-creator upload in, then beg for a freeze exception later in the week for add/remove programs functionality in it that I almost have done
<evand> indeed :(
<robbiew> at least it's not our fault ;)
<robbiew> heh...ok
<evand> but Julian is pushing hard to get time for it, as far as I could tell from our sprint conversation
<robbiew> evand: ok, so I guess we'll put in on the plate for 9.10
<evand> great
<robbiew> cjwatson: I have the updates from you...anything you want to add?
<cjwatson> right, you have it by mail, but for the record
<cjwatson> my biggest concern from last week was manual package selection in the installer; that should now be done modulo bugs, as per mail to ubuntu-devel@
<cjwatson> there are still a couple of small things that I want to hoover up, but am being slightly impeded by local infrastructure (mirror run ran out of disk last night and is taking a while to fix itself up)
<robbiew> doh!
<robbiew> ok
<cjwatson> those are task selection in oem-config, and a password strength checker in the installer
<cjwatson> but I have code written for those and just need to test
<robbiew> ok
<robbiew> doko: python 2.6/3.0 work looking good?
<robbiew> ok..
<robbiew> will follow up on that later
<robbiew> mvo: any concerns?
<mvo> stuff looks good, the computer-janitor merge is the biggest outstand issue
<mvo> the not-automatic branch changes that I talked about at the sprint with slangasek and cjwatson will not make it :/
<mvo> (we do not have a "propper" spec for it, just discussed it informally)
 * robbiew doesn't even recall hearing about it 
<mvo>  /end
<mvo> :)
<doko> robbiew: it does look ok, but I won't upload it today. The rebuilding will definietely take longer than until Thursday.
<slangasek> robbiew: that's about letting users have -proposed enabled but not automatically pulling in everything from proposed by default
<slangasek> (and -backports)
<robbiew> slangasek: ah...ok, thanks
<robbiew> doko: so when do you expect to upload?
<mvo> the remaining problem is that apt is not clever (at all) when its about resolving dependencies from not-automatic source (i.e. it does not resolve them :/
<doko> tonight, or tomorrow morning
<robbiew> mvo: ok
<robbiew> doko: ah, ok..thanks!
<robbiew> james_w: still around?
<robbiew> I know he had to skoot to the airport....
<robbiew> TheMuso: I know you don't have any "features", but how is dmraid/accessibility/audio looking...any concerns?
<TheMuso> No concerns, thers a chance I may have dmraid on the live CD, which users have been asking for, but I am not phased one way or the other if it makes it or not. Dmraid and ubiquity seem to behaving together, the issue currently is whether we activate arrays by default, and if not, where do we ask the question. Atm I am working on not activating by default, and asking at the usplash stage of live CD bootup.
<TheMuso> Pulseaudio and alsa are in "pull fixes from git" mode, and should stay that way till release as bugs come up.
<TheMuso> Accessibility works again for only-ubiquity mode, which I am pleased about, as well as for the live CD.
<robbiew> great..thanks for the update
<TheMuso> Still waiting on portaudio19 to be completely transitioned from universe, but everything shyould be in place for that.
<TheMuso> Since espeak + alsa works somewhat nicer, especially now that portaudio19 has a patch to better work with pulseaudio.
<TheMuso> Once that change is made, I can remove hacks in gnome-speech to make espeak work via pulseaudio.
<robbiew> TheMuso: ok
<robbiew> slangasek: last 5min for you :) (I know Keybuk's status all too well)
<Keybuk> *must*boot*faster*
<Keybuk> though I should probably ask slangasek about a standing feature freeze exception for boot performance work
<slangasek> still trying to get the grub2 spec in some semblance of order, unfortunately; the good news is that most of the design is in place (AIUI grub-installer can already be forced to install grub2, which is what we want), and most of the rest is really bugfixes that don't need excepted
<slangasek> should have the spec available for approval within the hour - was going to have it yesterday, but lost a couple hours of draft when my laptop decided not to resume :(
<robbiew> slangasek: ok..
<robbiew> ouch
<robbiew> did you bug the kernel guys? :)
<slangasek> no, there was nothing debuggable
<robbiew> ah..damn
<robbiew> ok
<slangasek> anyway, hotkey stuff is looking good - no sweeping changes to make there
<slangasek> and samba got a new upstream version drop earlier this week; openldap should have the same yet today, I think
<slangasek> that's all from me
 * mvo expects compiz 0.8 this week too
<robbiew> mvo: is it faster? :P
<robbiew> joking
<mvo> heh :)
<Keybuk> seriously
<Keybuk> compiz takes a third of the boot chart now :)
<robbiew> slangasek: is the power management work FF dependent?...is it still going to make this release?
<mvo> Keybuk: I'm happy (well, maybe not happy, but..) to look into this after FF
<Keybuk> mvo: I shall give you a hand
<cjwatson> oh, I missed one thing, I think I might be able to land LVM support in Kickstart
<cjwatson> (sorry to interrupt) that was off-spec but a lot of people have asked for it
<slangasek> robbiew: AFAIK the actionable power management cleanup is "spot the bits that aren't used and chop them off" - there's a mailing list discussion about powernowd, which if we decide we can drop that, I think warrants a freeze exception
<robbiew> cjwatson: ha! cool
<robbiew> slangasek: ok...sounds good
<slangasek> (freeze exception> because it makes the CDs smaller! Whoo!)
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> slangasek: we should be able to drop that now
<Keybuk> Tim merged my kernel patches
<robbiew> ok...I think we're going into another meeting timeslot
<Keybuk> so all the governors and drivers are just compiled into the kernel (as of 8.24) and the kernel will pick one
<slangasek> Keybuk: are we confident to make the call that powernowd isn't needed as a fallback?
<Keybuk> well s/now/when 8.24 is uploaded/
<Keybuk> slangasek: powernowd can't do anything without a scaling driver
<Keybuk> so I'm not sure what kind of fallback you're thinking of ;)
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:02.
<heno> thanks robbiew
<mvo> thanks!
<evand> thanks!
<TheMuso> thanks
<slangasek> Keybuk: the one where 'ondemand' doesn't work, which is the fallback set up in the init script?
<liw> thanks
<robbiew> heno: sorry about that
<slangasek> thanks all :)
<heno> Permit me to transition with a reference to http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/ubuntu-foundations-assigned-bug-tasks.html ;)
<robbiew> heh
<heno> We've made to for you guys, please use it! :)
<cjwatson> incentive for me to unassign more of the bugs that have been assigned to me since we moved from bugzilla ;-)
<heno> cjwatson: absolutely
<heno> these lists are only useful if they are realistic
 * heno waves to the QA team
 * ara waves
<heno> everyone ready?
 * cgregan waves
<bdmurray> aye!
<pedro_> hey hey
<fader_> Yo
<jcozens> Hi.
<sbeattie> hey
<cr3> ready red rooster
 * ogasawara waves
<heno> schwuk, davmor2: meeting ping
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:07. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davmor2> hello
<heno> Welcome all!
<heno> agenda as usual: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<schwuk> heno: sorry - was on phone
<heno> [TOPIC] Monday 23rd, new features testing day
<MootBot> New Topic:  Monday 23rd, new features testing day
<ara> that's mine
<ara> Next Monday we are having a new testing day
<ara> We will test some new features for Jaunty, now that we are reaching FF
<ara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/20090223
<ara> We are going to test screen-profiles, LVM partitions in the debian installer and netbook usb images
<heno> I see it's been well-advertised on planet already
<pedro_> \o/
<cr3> hm, I should be adding automated lvm testing
<heno> schwuk, cr3: we should test the new checkbox features too
<ara> so, please, if you want to find cool new bugs, join us next Monday
<cr3> ara: can I add Checkbox to your wiki page?
<heno> can we get those cases added to http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/ as we go along too?
<ara> cr3, heno: could we test checkbox the following Monday?
<davmor2> meh
<heno> I guess peoole will be doing some free form testing, but it would be good to capture that
<cr3> hm, maybe Checkbox should have tests for itself :)
<ara> heno: sure
<heno> ara: following Monday> I'm happy with that
<ara> heno: I could add to the wiki page that people willing to contribute to the testcases page are more than welcome
<davmor2> Yes after main testing for a5 sound good
<heno> Unfortunately I'm away on Monday (and this Friday)
<ara> Unfortunately? you should be glad!
<heno> ara: that's great, thanks
<heno> ara: but I'll miss the testing day! ;)
<heno> [TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights
<MootBot> New Topic:  UbuntuBugDay highlights
<pedro_> I've add that
<pedro_> Last Thursday we had the new bugs without a package hug day https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090212
<pedro_> we had a good participation from the community, thanks everybody!
<pedro_> and specially thanks to mangilimic who did a lot of work during that hug day
<pedro_> and to mrkanister for creating the page
<pedro_> both folks are truly rockstars ;-)
<heno> \o/
<pedro_> and tomorrow we have the Network Manager Applet hug day https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090219 so don't miss it
<pedro_> mangilimic already started to do some work
<davmor2> :)
<bdmurray> I stuck some bugs with patches in there too
<bdmurray> or a section with them
<heno> bdmurray, pedro_: is asac aware of those?
<pedro_> bdmurray: great!, should we put that as a recommendation to the bug day lists?
<heno> (he is now I guess)
<bdmurray> pedro_: I think so yes
<pedro_> bdmurray: perfect i'll edit the wiki page then
<heno> Have we decided on a topic for next week
<pedro_> heno: he's always around in #ubuntu-bugs  ;-)
<bdmurray> there's a --patch option for bugnumbers so its trivial to add them
<heno> pedro_ is away next week
<pedro_> oh that, I'm away next week
<heno> pedro_: ok, cool
<heno> (about him being in #u-b)
<pedro_> and there's supposed to be an apport-failed-retrace hug day
<bdmurray> pedro_: that's a tag right?
<pedro_> bdmurray: correct, but maybe the triagers are going to need more help looking at those bugs
<bdmurray> won't a fair number of them be private?
<pedro_> i don't know how many people know how to read backtraces and so on
<davmor2> bdmurray: if that's the case won't the only people with access be bug-control anyway?
<pedro_> bdmurray: yes, i was thinking in doing some pre triage, for marking them as public
<pedro_> not all, but probably a ~100
<heno> persia: you've held a class on reading traces AFAIR - could you be available for a bug day like this?
 * persia reads context
<bdmurray> looking at it there are probably enough public ones
<persia> Could it be a Monday?
<heno> The alternative is to run a server bug day - they have requested we do one
<bdmurray> heno: I don't think they have any reference material for us yet
<persia> If so, I'd even be willing to do two stack reading sessions, 12 hours apart to help people use those bugs.
<pedro_> heno: regarding that i've contacted mathiaz and i'm waiting for his response
<heno> persia: we've got a good rythm of running them on Thursdays and testing days on Mondays
<heno> bdmurray, pedro_: ok
<pedro_> should we go for the other target then? the flashplugin-nonfree product
<pedro_> that's the next one on the list
<persia> Thursday is much less good for me: I can be around some, but could probably only do one session.
<bdmurray> If the retrace failed what are the possible courses of action?
<heno> persia: ok, thanks. We could refer to logs of your previous sessions too
<persia> bdmurray, If the retrace failed, it's usually mostly hopeless, although if someone can get a similar environment, they can run apport-retrace locally and sometimes recover.
<bdmurray> Right, in which I'm not sure how much instruction is needed
<heno> pedro_: your call - looks like either option will be fine
<heno> in any case - can we get some support from others to be around on that day - bdmurray, ogasawara, sbeattie, fader?
<ogasawara> yup, I'll be around
<bdmurray> the 26th? yes
<sbeattie> I'll be around as well.
<fader> I'll be here
<heno> ok great :)
<pedro_> heno: ok let's stick with the schedule then and go for the apport-failed-retracer one ;-)
<heno> settled :)
<heno> [TOPIC] Checkbox PPA - schwuk
<MootBot> New Topic:  Checkbox PPA - schwuk
<schwuk> We have checkbox PPA now:
<davmor2> Short and to the point nice :)
<schwuk> https://launchpad.net/~checkbox-dev/+archive/ppa
<heno> featuring the suspend-resume test script
<heno> (and other cool changes :)
<schwuk> The 0.5 package is in Jaunty, but we're going to use the PPA to publish development/testing versions between releases.
<ara> schwuk: is 0.5 the final release in Jaunty?
<schwuk> There won't be much difference between the packages in there and Jaunty right now (apart from the suspend-resume script), but after FeatureFreeze we'll be using the PPA to get new features tested.
<davmor2> schwuk: will this be more for testing and development than general usage for joe public?
<schwuk> ara: 0.6 will be the final release.
<schwuk> (for FF)
<schwuk> davmor2: Depends. We have Intrepid and Hardy packages in there for 0.5, so that might of use by Joe Public.
<davmor2> okay cool
<cr3> ara: you'll be pleased to know I'll be pushing policykit support at the finishing line for ff
<schwuk> 0.6 will have a number of new features :)
<ara> cr3: \o/
<heno> great, thanks schwuk, cr3
<schwuk> But whether you're using Jaunty or not, please try out the packages in the PPA and give us some feedback.
<schwuk> Thanks heno.
<heno> [TOPIC] Launchpad Greasemonkey - prefilled descriptions?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Launchpad Greasemonkey - prefilled descriptions?
<davmor2> cr3: does checkbox have a bluetooth test?  Cause bluetooth has been really sucky since intrepid
<cr3> davmor2: nope, let me check if there's already a bug for that
<bdmurray> Hi, so I wrote a new greasemonkey script for the OEM team that prefills the bug description.  You can see a screenshot at http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/greasemonkey/prefilled-description.png.
<bdmurray> Anyway, I wonder if this would be useful for Ubuntu too.  I'm not quite sure the people using the greasemonkey scripts are the same people who need the description prefilled.
<sbeattie> bdmurray: nice.
<heno> where are the canned texts stored?
<cr3> davmor2: created bug #331132
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 331132 in checkbox "checkbox should include a bluetooth test" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/331132
<bdmurray> In the script itself.
<ara> bdmurray, sbeattie: btw, thanks for the update on the firefox plugin: neat!
<bdmurray> ara: thanks, it was a lot of fun
<bdmurray> I guess it can't hurt to have the prefilled description script in the bzr tree - does the prefilled description seem reasonable?
<heno> the best would be if casual bug filers got that template
<heno> is that too much to ask of the LP team?
<davmor2> heno: is there a lp bug about it?
<bdmurray> its worth a shot I don't think there is a bug about it
<heno> at least for bus without a package ...
<heno> bdmurray: can you file one?
<bdmurray> heno: of course
<heno> The template seems fine, fwiw
<heno> but getting it to the right audience is indeed the trick
<bdmurray> that's all I had about that
<heno> bdmurray: this is not in firefox-launchpad-plugin right, but in the greasemonkey collection?
<heno> in qa-tools
<bdmurray> heno: well, it's in launchpad-gm-scripts but yes not in the plugin
<heno> ok, thanks bdmurray
<heno> AOB?
<davmor2> Anyone got pcmcia card and slot, is it hot pluggable or not?
<fader> davmor2: I know they're supposed to be hot-pluggable, but I don't have a card to test
<davmor2> fader: that's the problem I have here :(
<heno> that reminds me - http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com is looking in good shape now! thanks davmor2, fader and schwuk!
<sbeattie> davmor2: what do you need tested.
<heno> davmor2: I might have some I can send you
<heno> old modems and such
<davmor2> heno: I don't have a lappy with pcmcia
<heno> oh, ok
<sbeattie> davmor2: I've got both; I could even send you a pci->pcmcia bridge. :-)
<fader> davmor2: I have an older laptop with two pcmcia slots
<davmor2> sbeattie: I just need to know what happens when you add the device is it auto reckonised and used automatically or do you have to tinker to get it up
<fader> I actually planned to order a wifi card for it... this gives me an excuse :)
<sbeattie> davmor2: it's generally auto-recognized and used automatically.
<davmor2> Cool so norm is a wifi card plug in and click on n-m select wifi connection
<davmor2> should work
<davmor2> sbeattie: ^
<heno> ok, let's wrap up.
<heno> thanks everyone!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:56.
<ara> thanks!
<davmor2> ta
<sbeattie> davmor2: it should; mind you, I tend not to rely on n-m. But yeah, it just appears as another network device.
<ara> one question? are we finally sending summaries?
<ara> of these meetings?
<davmor2> sbeattie: Ta I'll write that one up after then :)
<heno> ara: we should on http://blog.qa.ubuntu.com/
<heno> any takers for that? ^
 * davmor2 runs as quickly as possible
<ara> heno: I'll do that
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-02-19
 * lool waves
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:01. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> morning
<davidm> persia, thanks for running meeting last week.
<davidm> OK, from the top, action items from last week.
<davidm> [topic] persia to file bugs to fix mobile-setup-wizard issues
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to file bugs to fix mobile-setup-wizard issues
<lool> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090219
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090219
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090219
<lool> persia: around?
<lool> ogra: woot
<ogra> meep
<lool> davidm: Let's skip persia's items for now, and we'll get back to  them at the end if he shows up
<davidm> moving on
<davidm> [topic] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it (co)
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it (co)
<NCommander> Done.
<NCommander> Implemented during berlin.
<davidm> OK
<NCommander> Spec was closed too, fully tested under Steve's guidance
<lool> is the bp status up-to-date?
<NCommander> lool, should be.
<davidm> [topic] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.
<NCommander> Its on drafting, but nothing came out of u-arm (I didn't really get time to bring the subject up in depth)
<lool> Carry over?
<davidm> Lets look at this off line carry over for now.
<davidm> [topic] davidm to update roadmap to reflect specs targeted for jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  davidm to update roadmap to reflect specs targeted for jaunty
<davidm> done
<davidm> persia, you about?
<lool> davidm: Was there a quick boot spec?
<davidm> Foundations ended up with it.
<lool> ok
<davidm> [topic] ogra to add nslu2 enablement to the Roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to add nslu2 enablement to the Roadmap
<ogra> just done
<ogra> :)
<davidm> [topic] lool to follow up with NCommander to further extend the r
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool to follow up with NCommander to further extend the r
<NCommander> the r?
<davidm> I'n  not sure what that was, incomplete sentence from last week
<ogra> (moved "NSLU2 enablement" to Other though)
 * NCommander has no idea if we extended it ...
<ogra> NCommander, just do it :P dont always ask questions :P
<lool> "the roadmap"
<NCommander> Ah
<ogra> ah :)
<lool> I added some bugs to the RM, didn't particularly discuss with NCommander
<davidm> OK
<lool> Should be ok
<davidm> [topic] NCommander to test fix for 280699
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to test fix for 280699
<davidm> NCommander, ??
<NCommander> I didn't see I was assigned to it, but the bug is closed in LP
<NCommander> I think that number is wrong.
<lool> The bug id is 280669 not 699
<NCommander> Ooh
<ogra> bug 280669
<lool> " Doesn't detect second part of SSD drive on jax10  "
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 280669 in linux "Doesn't detect second part of SSD drive on jax10" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/280669
<ogra> ah
<lool> davidm: You can fail me on the next action   :-P
<NCommander> i386 latest kernel had success. Haven't checked with lpia yet.
<NCommander> I'll post results to the bug.
<davidm> [topic] NCommander to finish drafting arm-softboot-loader
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to finish drafting arm-softboot-loader
<davidm> lool, I did and moved on ;-)
<NCommander> not a lot of progress, other things were on my plate
<davidm> OK, I'll co
<lool> Carry over
<davidm> Moving on to roadmap
<davidm> [topic] roadmap review
<MootBot> New Topic:  roadmap review
<lool> ogra: offline-installer?
<davidm> ogra, offline installer
<ogra> hmm, well, there is script for now, i didnt manage to add something on top of vm-builder as i would like to yet
<ogra> i'll put the script into bzr and roll a ppa package for it
<davidm> OK
<ogra> seems many people use it though
<lool> ogra: Anything else to do in the spec?
<ogra> lool, a GUI, but given that we are post FF i'll develop that out of distro in PPA as well and make it adaptable for later vm-builder backend usage
<davidm> ogra, ??
<davidm> OK, thanks
<lool> ogra: You should update implemenetaion status
<lool> Either defer for jaunty or consider it beta available
<davidm> unr-handling-jaunty Stevenk
<ogra> oki
<lool> BTW there's a bp title which is "Offline Installer" and is completely unrelated
<davidm> Stevenk is making good progress
<lool> I think we should have a look at the patch merging progress as well
<lool> (Probably next week when stevenk is around)
<davidm> and I am upgrading 7 bugs that are currently filed and milestoneing them
<davidm>  general-resolution-for-touchscreen ogra??
<ogra> evtouch seems our only bet here, there are still bugs with it
<ogra> while upstream seems to have done some work on evdev all this is hardwired to the usbtouchscreen kernel driver
<ogra> which only supports three devices
<ogra> i'm just filing the necessary bugs for evtouch to track status
<lool> ogra: Could you update implementation progress?
<ogra> yep
<davidm> arm-softboot-loader NCommander
<NCommander> Previously discussed, in the progress of redrafting.
<davidm> Actually we covered it's status already
<davidm> selection-of-arm-images ogra
<ogra> well, no kernels yet, as soon as we have them we'll have a tool :)
<davidm> lpia-versus-i386 lool
<davidm> this is defeered until next cycle is it not?
<lool> No update, it's in good shape and only needs some infrastructure before jaunty + 1
<lool> (Which is for infinity to setup)
<lool> Will report if there's progress on this front
<lool> (spec status is up-to-date)
<davidm> OK that is the roadmap
<davidm> on to bugs I guess
<lool> Yup
<davidm> bug #299847
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 299847 in libipc-sharelite-perl "armel build failure (without ignoring testsuite results)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/299847
<lool> ogra, NCommander: you both worked on it
<NCommander> I managed to work out its an alignment issue (the results change when you play with the padding)
<ogra> well, its clearly identified, but there is no solution yet
<lool> What's needed to move this forward?
<NCommander> Normally GCC pads correctly onto the boundary, but this library does some weird things with structs
<ogra> and it actually only showing on the buildds
<NCommander> ogra, I was going to test it on the other piece of ARM hardware I got yesterday to see if it happens there
<NCommander> It might also be worth a test on the slug, to see if it only happens on ARMv5
<davidm> OK NCommander please test on your hardware
<ogra> i will do that as soon as bug 331510 is solved
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 331510 in linux "ixp4xx kernel to big to use with debian-installer on NSLU2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/331510
<lool> The last comment says "it seems to be an alignment issue"; can we get a smaller test case of the alignment issue?
<NCommander> lool, huh?
<lool> NCommander: Can we get a smaller C test case reproducing the issue?
<NCommander> Oh. Well, I can see the structs causing the breakage, I just need to figure out how to write some code that acts a test case
<NCommander> The problem is this libraries structs are extremely odd (they're passing arries to unsigned shorts in functions)
<lool> Well if it's sure it's an aligment issue, why do we need to test on other hardware?
<NCommander> lool, mostly because I have no idea why we're having an issue. The kernel has a mechanism to correct alignment automatically.
 * NCommander misspoke
<NCommander> I'm fairly sure its the alignment. Its the only thing that seems to fit.
<NCommander> Which, when enabled, still didn't fix the issue on the buildds, but changing the padding changes the results of the failures, and even causes different tests to fail.
<ogra> hey, someone already added my bug to the roadmap ...
 * ogra reverts his edit
 * davidm is fast
<lool> Ok, so NCommander are you taking the lead on this bug?
<ogra> :)
<NCommander> Yeah
<lool> NCommander: Could you set yourself as assignee?
<davidm> Ok
<davidm> bug #322217: ixp4xx d-i firmware doesn't boot need to upload a changed APEX and rebuild d-i
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 322217 in linux "ixp4xx image does not boot" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/322217
<NCommander> I'm going to kick upstream an email, maybe then can enlightment on the insanity of this library.
<ogra> davidm, fixed
<ogra> but bug 331510 newly introduced
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 331510 in linux "ixp4xx kernel to big to use with debian-installer on NSLU2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/331510
<davidm> ogra, are you taking the lead on this?
<lool> ogra: What's the fix committed task in jaunty?
<lool> ogra: on #322217; there's a task on linux; it's fix committed, what is it?
<ogra> davidm, indeed
<lool> "
<lool> "
<lool> adding linux task, teh endianess of the kernel image is wrong and needs to be flipped
<lool> I guess it's done?
<ogra> lool, thats done, right
<ogra> firmware is done as well
<lool> ogra: Could you close the linux task?
 * ogra thought he closed all tasks already
<lool> It's only fix committed
<lool> ogra: bug 331510 isn't milestoned nor tracked for jaunty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 331510 in linux "ixp4xx kernel to big to use with debian-installer on NSLU2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/331510
<ogra> lool, i just filed it at the beginning of the meeting :)
<lool> ogra: Could you set milesone + track in jaunty + assign yourself ot it?
<ogra> i'll do the paperwork afterwards
<davidm> Ok
<davidm> moving on
<davidm> bug #319729: missing pselect() and ppoll() syscalls on ARM need to forward upstream to linux-arm-kernel
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 319729 in linux "ARM architecture lacks support for pselect() and ppoll()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/319729
<lool> amitk isn't around
<lool> I think it was determined in the release meeting that this was fairly important
<lool> There was discussion between pgraner and scott on they topic
<lool> *the
<davidm> OK OK will follow up with amitk off-line
<lool> Ok
<davidm> OK that was the end of the list any opens?
<lool> can't think of any
<lool> usual reminders about spec status and activity reports I guess :-)
<davidm> OK then we can actually end the meeting early
<NCommander> I do have a quick annoucement
<lool> With persia and stevenk missing, we didn't cover much
<davidm> Need to see what happened to persia
<NCommander> As of last night, there are no more ARM specific failures in main. (there are a few general failures, and a few packages on x86 that got built on ARM by accident)
<davidm> StevenK is on holiday today to tomrrow
<lool> wow congrats
<NCommander> (I nailed down KDE's last remaining main package
<davidm> CGreat
<NCommander> universe is slightly less happy, but at least main is on par with the Intel ports ;-)
<lool> NCommander: on to universe and beyond!
<NCommander> lool, on my todo already ;-)
<lool> SCNR
<NCommander> SCNR?
<davidm> lool, what do we do about x86 packages that can't get built on ARM?
<lool> davidm: If they don't make sense on arm, they should be listed in P-a-s
<lool> It's just cosmetic I think
<NCommander> We also have a few LP farts
<NCommander> When the port was bootstrapped, LP ignored P-a-s at first on ARM
 * NCommander looks at libx86 on ARM ...
<davidm> I think we inherit  P-a-s from Debian?
<lool> davidm: In all cases, no need to worry about it
<lool> davidm: Yes
<lool> davidm: Albeit I don't know whether it's still working properly as Pas moved to git in Debian and that needed some adjustments on our side
<lool> Also the team maintaining Pas was made of 4 people actually connected to canonical IIRC, and the new team isn't connected at all I think
<davidm> Ok thanks
<lool> Actually 3/4 were related to canonical
<lool> So I don't know whether that calls for a different handling of Pas or not
<davidm> do we need to take this up with someone?
<davidm> Ok lets take it off line and close the meeting
<lool> davidm: We could do it as a low priority task I guess; reviewing whether more packages need to go in there and sending that to Debian
<davidm> close meeting going once
<davidm> lool, OK that makes sense
<davidm> close meeting going twice
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:46.
<lool> davidm: thanks for chairing
<ogra> thanks
<keffie_jayx> @now caracas
<nhandler> keffie_jayx: The bot no longer manages the meeting schedule. Look at the Fridge's Google Calendar instead
<keffie_jayx> nhandler, thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-02-20
<myrtlebeachbums> Thanks for making it johnc4510 - you too boredandblogging
<boredandblogging> myrtlebeachbums: gonna try to hang around
<myrtlebeachbums> Thanks
<johnc4510-laptop> boredandblogging: hey bud
<johnc4510-laptop> :)
<boredandblogging> :-)
<johnc4510-laptop> pleia2: greetings
<johnc4510-laptop> myrtlebeachbums: luck to ya bud :)
<myrtlebeachbums> Thanks!
<effie_jayx> 7 more minutes
<effie_jayx> ?
<myrtlebeachbums> kennymc0: good luck to you too
<kennymc0> good luck to you too myrtlebeachbums
<scott_ev> *;evenin. all
<kennymc0> evening scott_ev
<scott_ev> wooo kennymc0
<tyche_> Practice shot:  I'm here to support kennymc0. w00t!!!!!
<MTecknology> tyche_: hi
<kennymc0> :)
<myrtlebeachbums> tyche - you made it!
<scott_ev>  I'm here to support kennymc0.
<scott_ev>                 w00t!!!!!
<effie_jayx> heh :D
<Technoviking> evening
<scott_ev> Technoviking: evenin
<kennymc0> evening Technoviking
<itnet7> Evening everyone!
<kennymc0> evening
<scott_ev> itnet7: evenin
<rhosigma> evening
<tyche_> I've got one for you, too, myrtlebeachbums
<vorian> evening
<johnc4510-laptop> vorian: hey bud
<kennymc0> evening vorian
<nhandler> Hey vorian
<vorian> hi johnc4510-laptop and kennymc0 :)
<johnc4510-laptop> :)
<myrtlebeachbums> :)
<Jeff_Martin> good evening everyone
<rhosigma> good evening
<johnc4510-laptop> hi Jeff_Martin
<pleia2> hi all
<itnet7> Hey there Jeff_Martin
<kennymc0> evening Jeff_Martin
<johnc4510-laptop> pleia2: hi
<kennymc0> hello pleia2
<johnc4510-laptop> spirited bunch tonight
<pleia2> okay, the list is long tonight so I'm afraid we're going to have to split it into another meeting in 2 weeks
<pleia2> so the last 4 on the list are going to be postponed until then :(
<pleia2> sorry folks
 * MTecknology waits for heart to begin beating again
<pleia2> we'll update the wiki for the next meeting time tomorrow
<nhandler> pleia2: Is everyone from the first half even here?
<myrtlebeachbums> I'm here
<MTecknology> I'm here :)
<rhosigma> i'm here
<pleia2> hikaricore and spiderbatdad arent
<johnc4510-laptop> kennymc0 is here
<kennymc0> i'm here
<johnc4510-laptop> lol
<pleia2> hmm
<MTecknology> I imagine 2 of the approvals will be pretty fast... /me thinks of their names
<pleia2> alright, that's the plan, if we have a lot of time we'll see
<MTecknology> tiem to start?
<pleia2> but just so folks aren't disappointed if we don't get to them :)
<tonyyarusso> is there a link to an agenda?
<nhandler> tonyyarusso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<pleia2> myrtlebeachbums: you're up!
<tonyyarusso> ty
<myrtlebeachbums> Thanks!
<myrtlebeachbums> So how does this work? I was looking forward to going second so I didn't have to ask that. :)
<nhandler> myrtlebeachbums: Tell everyone a little about yourself
<tyche_> I'm here to support myrtlebeachbums.  w00t!!!!!
<vorian> Tell us a bit about who you are and why you want to be a member.
<MTecknology> myrtlebeachbums: one line short summary of why you should me approved
<vorian> (for all other waiting, please prepare a short statement of the same nature)
<myrtlebeachbums> Okay. I've been a Linux user since '99, and an Ubuntu user for a number of years. I started work on Ubuntu Weekly News on issue 101, and I'm trying to do what I can to help get the SC Loco active.
<myrtlebeachbums> So far I've got them on board for a Jaunty release party.
<johnc4510-laptop> Dave-myrtlebeachbums has done great work on the UWN. He always jumps right in and helps on anything we need done. Consequently, he has learned most duties associated with the UWN. I highly recommend him for membership.
<effie_jayx> myrtlebeachbums, I see some good testimonials up. congrats on the great work
<eightyeight> johnc4510-laptop: thx
<myrtlebeachbums> Thank you
<boredandblogging> myrtlebeachbums works hard on the UWN every week, he rocks!
<effie_jayx> myrtlebeachbums,  how do you see the work in you LoCo team?
<myrtlebeachbums> Honestly I'm jealous of how tyche, johnc4510, kennymc0 and the others in the AZ Loco because they're so active. The SC loco is largely inactive, and I'm hoping that by trying to get a release party going that we can at least start to get the folks in the SC loco to start working together on things. We've also discussed some things like rebuilding donated systems for kids. All good ideas. I'm trying to help them get to execu
<vorian> boredandblogging: i remember saying once upon a time that we would never see an issue 100 :)
<johnc4510-laptop> lol
<johnc4510-laptop> 130 this sunday
<boredandblogging> and going strong because of guys like myrtlebeachbums
<myrtlebeachbums> :)
<vorian> so, more than half a years work on the UWN
<pleia2> myrtlebeachbums: your line cut off at "help them get to execu"
<atoponce> myrtlebeachbums: do you plan on keeping with the UWN, or branching into other areas of contribution?
<tyche_> Yep, and he takes instruction very well
<myrtlebeachbums> ...I'm trying to help them get to execution on those.
<pleia2> myrtlebeachbums: where do you see your future involvement effort?
<myrtlebeachbums> I definitely intend to stick with UWN as long as they'll have me. As a non-programmer, it's a way for me to give back to the Ubuntu community.
<myrtlebeachbums> In what pleia2? With UWN, the SC Loco, or Ubuntu in general?
<atoponce> myrtlebeachbums: how do you contribute to the UWN?
<pleia2> myrtlebeachbums: Ubuntu in general :) what will you be doing with membership to help the community in the future
<myrtlebeachbums> These days I do the write ups on the In The Press section, some times the In Other News section, and anywhere else that I'm asked. I also help proof read things, and I do try to suggest links to tyche and johnc4510 for inclusion in UWN.
<atoponce> i must say the uwn has been rocking lately
<atoponce> i read every issue
<myrtlebeachbums> I'd like to think that I will grow and can help out wherever I can. If I can be of help on other teams, I'd definitely be happy to do so. I've considered helping with the bug jams, but I have to jump in and get used to it. Cold feet for this non-programmer.
<atoponce> i'm fine to throw my support behing your membership. +1 from me
<johnc4510-laptop> atoponce: thx
<vorian> me too, +1 from me :)
<myrtlebeachbums> Thank you atoponce
<effie_jayx> +1 from me ... great wrk
<myrtlebeachbums> Thank you vorian
<myrtlebeachbums> Okay - thanks everyone :D
<vorian> you earned it
<Technoviking> +1
<johnc4510-laptop> w00t
<tyche_> congratulations, myrtlebeachbums
<johnc4510-laptop> congrats to myrtlebeachbums
<boredandblogging> wohoo!
<johnc4510-laptop> :)
<effie_jayx> great work myrtlebeachbums
<scott_ev> woooohoooo
<rhosigma> congrats :-)
<panickedthumb> congrats myrtlebeachbums
<myrtlebeachbums> Thanks guys for accepting as part of the UWN team, and for getting me to this point. I've really enjoyed my time in UWN, and look forward a many more issues.
<nhandler> Congrats myrtlebeachbums
<itnet7> Congrats!
<panickedthumb> "look forward to many more issues" be careful for what you wish for ;)
<Jeff_Martin> w00t myrtlebeachbums!!
<pleia2> myrtlebeachbums: so, future plans with Ubuntu? sticking with UWN? branching out?
<myrtlebeachbums> Heh heh heh. I'm a firm believer in knowing ones limitation, and I feel I can always contribute to UWN.
<pleia2> excellent :)
<cody-somerville> congratz myrtlebeachbums
<myrtlebeachbums> I need to explore what's out there and see where else I can help.
<nhandler> myrtlebeachbums: If you like to write, you can check out the docs team
<myrtlebeachbums> Other Ubuntu plans include finally taking my UCP exam. I've got the LPI level 1 cert done. Just need that last test.
<myrtlebeachbums> Thanks nhandler - I'll have to check into that.
<pleia2> +1 from me
<pleia2> great work myrtlebeachbums
<myrtlebeachbums> Thank you
<vorian> congrats myrtlebeachbums, welcome aboard!
<myrtlebeachbums> :) I'm proud to have made it here. Thanks again everyone.
<vorian> rhosigma, you are up!
<rhosigma> :-)
<panickedthumb> For the record, I am here supporting rhosigma
<vorian> panickedthumb: that is an auto -1
<atoponce> panickedthumb: and that's all you're going to say? :)
<panickedthumb> curses!
<panickedthumb> atoponce, lol no
<panickedthumb> I'm letting rhosigma talk first :)
<atoponce> :)
<rhosigma> I am relativity new to Ubuntu (stated playing in 04). Switched from Windows and will NEVER switch back. I am the Norfolk/Hampton Roads Rep for the VirginiaTeam LOCO, I want to become a member because I am looking forward to actively getting more involved with forums, wiki's, and blogs and to better aid my LOCO
<panickedthumb> The Virginia LoCo has just resumed recently after a long hiatus and rhosigma has been instrumental in getting everything set up with me and tarvid
<atoponce> hah! that's better panickedthumb. :)
<rhosigma> :-)
<panickedthumb> he has been very enthusiastic with getting things taken care of, designed our logo and helped me with getting the wiki in shape
<pleia2> rhosigma: can you give some details as to the work you've been doing with the Virginia team?
<atoponce> rhosigma: do you have a link to your forums profile?
<panickedthumb> atoponce,  thanks! :)
<rhosigma> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VirginiaTeam
<itnet7> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rhosigma
<pleia2> rhosigma: I meant, your involvement specifically?
<rhosigma> As far as my LOCO involvement. I am receiving CD's from Ubuntu and will take part in my area to get those out
<rhosigma> i will be installing and offering a free training to people in the area
<panickedthumb> The next meeting we're going to be going over events that we can do, which rhosigma will be organizing in his area
<pleia2> rhosigma: what kinds of things have you done thus far?
<rhosigma> I am relatively new to the LOCO, but like panickedthumb said, i did help give the wiki page a facelift and designed the logo
<effie_jayx> rhosigma, have you participates in events, maing booths or the like?
<panickedthumb> effie_jayx, we haven't really gotten that far yet
<atoponce> rhosigma: link to your forums profile?
<panickedthumb> atoponce, I was on the forums so I dug it up really quick
<panickedthumb> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=703060
<rhosigma> as of yet, no, since the loco is just starting up again. We do have plans of doing such
<rhosigma> thank you panickedthumb
<panickedthumb> The history of the LoCo is a long story, as vorian can tell you :) But it's just recently gotten off the ground, and we haven't had any events yet. However we wouldn't be nearly as far along as we are if not for rhosigma's contributions
<panickedthumb> ;[
<panickedthumb> sorry, that was my cat
<pleia2> rhosigma: I think your work toward getting the team going is great, the wiki looks nice and it'll be great to see the US-VA team going :)
<rhosigma> I noticed that the loco was not very active, i spoke with panickedthumb and tarvid a few time and we brought it back rather quickly
<rhosigma> i fully agree, and i am proud to be a part of its growing
<panickedthumb> as am I rhosigma, and glad to have you on board
<effie_jayx> rhosigma, how many people are actively participating in the team?
<pleia2> but I'd really like to see some events under your belt, perhaps a bit more involvement elsewhere too (I don't see any launchpad karma, and only one forum post)
<rhosigma> kind of new to ubuntu in a whole
 * pleia2 nods
<rhosigma> spent most of my time starting out with SUSE
<vorian> rhosigma: follow panickedthumb's lead, and you'll have plenty under your belt in no time.
<rhosigma> but after installing and using it for 10 minutes, i fell in love and knew i needed to get to be a part of its growth
<effie_jayx> rhosigma, I believe you have a great spirit but I agree with pleia2, keep on working on the team and come back in a few months
<atoponce> rhosigma: i too would like to see some more sustained contributions on your application
<pleia2> rhosigma: you're certainly ont he right track!
<panickedthumb> effie_jayx, we have over 90 on the launchpad group, but those all couldn't be considered active. We've had about 20 in mailing list and irc discussions
<rhosigma> great thank you
<panickedthumb> vorian, thanks for the compliment ;)
<scott_ev>  I'm here to support kennymc0.
<scott_ev>                 w00t!!!!!
<scott_ev> oops
<panickedthumb> lol
<itnet7> :-P
<Jeff_Martin> I'm here to support kennymc0 for membership
<panickedthumb> Thanks for your time everyone, rhosigma and I will be back in a few months
<boredandblogging> kennymc0!
<panickedthumb> :)
<kennymc0> is it my turn already?
<pleia2> rhosigma: looking forward to seeing you back in a few months :)
<atoponce> panickedthumb: cool. thx
<pleia2> kennymc0: you're up!
<scott_ev>  I'm here to support kennymc0.
<scott_ev>                 w00t!!!!!
<tyche_> I'm here to support kennymc0. w00t!!!!!
<slofgren> I'm here to support kennymc0 for membership
<kennymc0> thanks
<kennymc0> Hello, I'm Kenny McHenry. I'm a recent college grad and an eagle scout.  I've been a member of the Arizona LoCo team since October 18, 2007, and have been a contributer for the UWN since Issue 116. From  more information about me please check out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kennymc0, and https://launchpad.net/~kennymc0 .
<slofgren> viva azloco
<br24> Im supporting kennymc0
<johnc4510-laptop> I'm here to cheer for kennymc0. Kenny has done great work for the Arizona LoCo and also for the UWN. He is always willing to help others and lives by the Ubuntu Code of Conduct. I _highly_ recommend him for membership.
<atoponce> wow. a cheerleading section. cool.
<atoponce> :)
<kennymc0> thanks guys
<myrtlebeachbums> I'm still here so that I can support kennymc0. kennymc0 has been with UWN since around the Intrepid release, and he's coming along quite well. He's not helping out in In The Blogosphere, and I know I appreciate his contribution every week.
<scott_ev> you betcha
<slofgren> go kennymc0
<pleia2> kennymc0: wow, great loco work :)
<kennymc0> thanks pleia2
<pleia2> kennymc0: I do a lot of scripe-work, so I know how time-consuming and tedious it can be - and thankless ;) so well done
<kennymc0> thankyou very much
<kennymc0> i do everything that i can
<kennymc0> and then some :)
<br24> kennymc0 certainly does
<atoponce> kennymc0: i see a lot of loco work, and you say you've done uwn work?
<slofgren> kennymc0 has helped me with our team server installations as well
<kennymc0> atoponce: i have been working on the uwn since 116 started out with the updates and stats sections and now am working on the in the blogosphere section and the upcoming events
<kennymc0> atoponce: i also helped train my replacement for the updates and stats section
<pleia2> kennymc0: do you have solid future plans? continuing work with UWN and LoCo, I presume, but anything else beyond that?
<kennymc0> pleia2: i plan to continue contributing to the uwn and helping with my LoCo and if anything comes up that i have the expertiese to help with i will jump on it
<kennymc0> pleia2: also if i dont have the expertise but someone is there that can teach me what to do then i will also do whatever i can
<kennymc0> i'm very open to learning new things
<atoponce> kennymc0: what do you plan on doing with the loco, specifically
<pleia2> kennymc0: cool, being willing to jump on new things is important :)
<kennymc0> atoponce: i plan on continuing to help with install fests and release parties. If johnc4510-laptop needs any more help with the day to day running of the team then i'll help him however i can.
<tyche_> kennymc0 is also a website admin for the new AZ Team site
<kennymc0> i've also been helping build our new website and am going to be one of the admins for it http://12.159.65.82/drupal/
<pleia2> tyche_: oh, is he responsiblef or that beautiful thing?
<kennymc0> tyche_: you beat me to it
<tyche_> Soon to come to a browser near you.
<johnc4510-laptop> http://12.159.65.82/drupal/?q=node   going live this weekend
<tyche_> Yep
<pleia2> awesome :)
<johnc4510-laptop> kennymc0 did a lot of the work
<pleia2> tyche_ showed some of us earlier, it's awesome
<myrtlebeachbums> The AZ team did an amazing job on that. Once again, I'm jealous. :)
<atoponce> very nice
<pleia2> great work, kennymc0! +1 from me
<kennymc0> thankyou pleia2
<vorian> I'm happy to +1 kennymc0, great work!
<MTecknology> johnc4510-laptop: check out https://launchpad.net/loco-drupal
<effie_jayx> +1 from me to
<kennymc0> thankyou vorian
<atoponce> +1 from me as well. strong loco work and good contribution to uwn
<johnc4510-laptop> w000t for kennymc0 congrats bud   yahoooooo!!!!!
<kennymc0> thankyou effie_jayx
<cody-somerville> +1
<johnc4510-laptop> MTecknology: will do
<Technoviking> +1, great work, keep it up :)
<kennymc0> thankyou atoponce
<vorian> kennymc0: you earned it :)
<scott_ev> AZ LoCo adds another one!!! Woot!!!
<kennymc0> thankyou cody-somerville
<Jeff_Martin> w00t ! and congrats kennymc0!!
<effie_jayx> congrats kennymc0
<kennymc0> thakyou Technoviking
<boredandblogging> awesome, congrats kennymc0!
<johnc4510-laptop> :)
<tyche_> Congratulations, kennymc0.  I knew you could do it.  YAAAAAAAAA-HOOOOOOO!!!
<scott_ev> AZ LoCo adds another one!!! Woot!!!
<slofgren> congrats kennymc0
<kennymc0> Thankyou everyone
<br24> awesomeness kennymc0!
<itnet7> congrats kennycm0
<Jeff_Martin> thank you kennymc0
<nhandler> Congrats kennymc0
<kennymc0> thankyou
<pleia2> congrats kennymc0 :)
<effie_jayx> tyche_,  yeah no need for quilts and swords there
<kennymc0> thanks
<pleia2> MTecknology: you're up!
<MTecknology> I've been extremely active in my LoCo and on Launchpad. I helped on the LoCo Drupal project to bring out the current releases (http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1827). I've also been putting a lot of effort into working with my own LoCo such as scheduling monthly meetings and setting up a solid infrasctructure so new users can quickly find everything they're interested in (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SouthDakotaTeam).
<tyche_> ROFL
<myrtlebeachbums> Congrats kennymc0 - UWN is 2 for 2 tonight :)
<Swe3tDave> I'm here to support MTecknology. He has been working with me on the LoCo Drupal Development team. Without is contribution, loco-drupal would certainly not be what it is now. I highly recommend him for membership.
<MTecknology> I'm actually trying to schedule a time with Matthew Revell that I can join in the Launchpad podcast about our LoCo Drupal release. He's a hard guy to schedule a time with though. Swe3tDave is the one who originally originated the project.
<johnc4510-laptop> AZ team now has 3 Ubuntu members w00t
<nhasian> i'm here
<nhasian> is the meeting still on?
<MTecknology> nhasian: in progress
<nhasian> MTecknology, I commented my name out of the wiki because i didnt think i'd make it in time.  can I still apply?
<scott_ev> johnc4510-laptop: 4 soon
<johnc4510-laptop> lol
<tonyyarusso> I've been following MTeck's LoCo work for a while, both general team coordination and more recently the Drupal stuff.  While I haven't had much time to play around with the latter yet, it looks pretty darn impressive, and should help various teams get their web presence kick-started.  I'm also hoping that we can coordinate some LoCo stuff in the future, as I'm in a neighboring state.
<MTecknology> nhasian: just tack it on the bottom for now, they might run late
<pleia2> nhasian: next time, and no need to remove if you aren't going to make it, we'll just get to you during the next meeting
<MTecknology> tonyyarusso: I'd love to do that if I get a good user base :)
<tonyyarusso> MTecknology: same :)
<tonyyarusso> Well, actually we have a decent *number* of users, but aren't all that active yet.  Gotta get my act together first to be able to take care of such things, but hopefully we can do awesomeness soon.
<pleia2> MTecknology: great work with the drupal stuff :)
<MTecknology> The LoCo when I took it over was pretty much entirely dead. It's not active really, but we do have monthly meetings and we are looking into activities. Members are starting to come too :)
<MTecknology> pleia2: Swe3tDave and I thank you :)
<atoponce> MTecknology: where would you say the bulk of your contributions are? drupal?
<pleia2> MTecknology: how's the loco doing?
<MTecknology> I'd say LoCo then Drupal ; but they've both been my extreme focus points for the last few months
<MTecknology> They really do go hand in hanmd
<MTecknology> http://sdloco.profarius.com/ ; This is using the LoCo Drupal package
<effie_jayx> MTecknology,  I have to congratulate you for fantastic work on the community the past few months
<MTecknology> thanks
<MTecknology> I would like membership partly for the business card priviliges. I had to write
<MTecknology> down a URL on a receipt today for someone interested in Ubuntu after they saw the shirt I was wearing. If I have the business cards, I could just hand them to a curious individual like that guys instead. It would give them a specific contac
<MTecknology> t person as well :).
<MTecknology> Sorry for that.....
<pleia2> MTecknology: any loco events yet? or planned?
<atoponce> MTecknology: what are you doing to activate the SD loco?
<MTecknology> only 9.04 release party, but the specifics are entirely in the air
<MTecknology> atoponce: creating a website, giving the wiki a complete make-over ; everything there was by my hands :)
<atoponce> MTecknology: how is the loco coming? number attending? when meetings are? etc? seeing some growth?
<MTecknology> Just the work on it seems to have intrigued people to become members
<MTecknology> When I started the meetings had me and a former member, now I have 4 members that I can pretty much count on being there
<pleia2> cool :)
<MTecknology> We have one person that is taking an active role in the wiki work as well which is a promising sign
<atoponce> MTecknology: i was told once that if you write down your goals, you're more likely to achieve them. so, putting your goals on the wiki is a great start
<MTecknology> Roadmaps
<MTecknology> those are my goals for the moment :)
<MTecknology> I'm going to address each one of those at our LoCo meeting tomorrow
<MTecknology> and events are on the list ;)
<atoponce> MTecknology: i'm very much impressed with your activity since your last membership attempt. i'm more than happy to give you a +1
<vorian> +1 from me! Great work thus far
<pleia2> +1 from me, excellent work these past few months!
<MTecknology> ya, it was more of me taking the time to bring it all together so I wasn't eaten up :P
<MTecknology> thanks :)
<effie_jayx> +1 from me too
<atoponce> for those that come to the meeting, and don't meet approval, MTecknology is a shining example of what we're looking for
<johnc4510-laptop> w00t for MTecknology
<Technoviking> +1 from me
<johnc4510-laptop> congrats
<Swe3tDave> Congrats!
<MTecknology> :D
<itnet7> congrats!!
<nhandler> Congrasts MTecknology
<MTecknology> First one in South Dakota :D
<pleia2> congrats MTecknology :)
<vorian> congrats MTecknology
<atoponce> MTecknology: welcome aboard
<tyche_> congratulations, MTecknology
<MTecknology> wait... no -1 this time?
<MTecknology> heck ya :)
<dantalizing> -1
<dantalizing> :-P
<itnet7> lol
<pleia2> we still have time, no kiko, no charlie-tca and no doctormo, so we've got one left
<effie_jayx> congrats MTecknology  excellent work
<pleia2> itnet7: you're up! :)
<itnet7> sweet!
<MTecknology> kiko was supposed to be here to support me
<itnet7> I have been involved with the Ubuntu Florida Loco Team for approximately the last 2 years, and am currently holding the position of Team Lead. We have done many different projects together. I have organized  my share , and have attended a bunch in support of my other Team Members.
<itnet7> I have been a Linux Special Interest Group Instructor for a windows user group for almost 2 years focusing on Ubuntu.
<itnet7> I have recently been asked to Join the Florida Linux show's staff as Community Relations, Our Florida team is going to attend and some individual members are going to exhibit their projects and give presentations.
<itnet7> :-)
<boredandblogging> i met itnet7 at UDS, he is nuts about Ubuntu and does a great job promoting it
<pleia2> itnet7 is awesome :)
<dantalizing> i'm here to support itnet7..  he's been active with the florida loco for a very long time.  he's been always been helpful to new users, and has done a lot of work with loco events.  we can always count on him to be active.
 * itnet7 thanks boredandbloggin
<dantalizing> he has literally been to every event we've had.. all over florida
<atoponce> itnet7: where is most of your contribution? where do you focus most of your time?
<itnet7> I would have to say probably the Florida Team! and Triaging bugs as of late
<itnet7> I have a lot of plans for the future, helping grow the team, and learning some development
<greg-g> and when he says triaging, he means adding some debdiffs to some (at least one that I was subscribed to)
<itnet7> :-)
<itnet7> I try to step outside my comfort zone and try new things. I am looking for mentors in Drupal, Python, and Django at the moment.
<atoponce> itnet7: which one are you in the photo in your wiki?
<itnet7> the hefty one!
<atoponce> heh
<itnet7> in the middle ;-P
<itnet7> that is the first Brevard Users group install fest
<itnet7> dantalizing to the left
<itnet7> two or three of the guys that showed up had never seen ubuntu and installed it that day
<pleia2> cool
<atoponce> itnet7: what do you plan on doing with your membership? in other words, why are you applying?
<itnet7> I agree with what MTecknology said about giving out business cards to interested users
<itnet7> I think it makes people feel good to receive help from Ubuntu Members
<itnet7> it gives them peace of mind
<boredandblogging> his work on the florida linux show is nice
<itnet7> It will also help my loco for me to have membership
<boredandblogging> itnet7 is helping run it
<atoponce> what about future plans with the loco? what plans do you have with the florida team, besides beating boredandblogging over the head with a wet fish?
<pleia2> hehe
<itnet7> ROFL
<itnet7> I plan on try to help increase our membership with quality contributors
<boredandblogging> good thing he is in florida and I'm in georgia then :-)
<itnet7> dantalizing is like my right-hand and he and i can
<itnet7> identify strengths and help cultivate them in our members
<pleia2> boredandblogging: that's the kind of thinking that will get you covered in wet fish when you least expect it
<boredandblogging> hah!
<atoponce> it seems to me boredandblogging is always talking smack about fl vs ga
<itnet7> boredandblogging: I will bring wetfish march 9th
<boredandblogging> atoponce: you didn't just go there!
<atoponce> heh
<boredandblogging> :-)
<dantalizing> hey now...watch the boredandblogging hair with the fish
<itnet7> March 9th is the Florida Linux Show in Jacksonville
<itnet7> if anyone wants to come we were able to score some complimentary exhibiting booths
<itnet7> :-P
<boredandblogging> just like the florida team came up for the atlanta linux show, the georgia team is excited  to be attending the FLS
<atoponce> itnet7: you have a +1 from me. good loco work, good launchpad work, all around solid contributions
<pleia2> +1 from me! excellent work itnet7 :)
<Technoviking> go Dawgs!!!
<effie_jayx> +1 from me too
<boredandblogging> Technoviking: man, that is just wrong!
<itnet7> Well thanks sooooo much to everyone !!!
<vorian> +1 for me too! (next mission is to find bordy and kick him in to being active again)
<Technoviking> +1
<itnet7> We are trying vorian :-)
<vorian> excellent!
<nhandler> Congrats itnet7
<pleia2> congrats itnet7!
<Swe3tDave> Congrats!
<itnet7> Thanks again to all of you!!!
<atoponce> itnet7: welcome aboard
<dantalizing> nice itnet7
<dantalizing> wtg
<itnet7> AWESOME
<effie_jayx> congrats itnet7
<pleia2> that wraps up things for the evening, thanks for coming everyone :) great work all around
<johnc4510-laptop> congrats itnet7
 * johnc4510-laptop gives board a pat on the back...nice job!!!
<itnet7> thanks johnc4510-laptop, effie_jayx dantalizing (of course), and atoponce!!
<scott_ev> congrats itnet7
<myrtlebeachbums> G'nite folks, and thanks again everyone.
<scott_ev> Go forth and spread the word, and the word is Ubuntu
<doctormo> I missed it right?
<effie_jayx> you did
<doctormo> Oh well
<effie_jayx> tgwo weeks
<effie_jayx> we are meeting again in two weeka
<doctormo> Same agenda?
<pleia2> doctormo: people who can't make it just overflow into the next meeting
<pleia2> no big deal, only about half the people showed up tonight
<johnc4510-laptop> night all
<johnc4510-laptop> :)
<pleia2> night johnc4510-laptop
<johnc4510-laptop> :)
<greg-g> itnet7: first Americas Ubuntu member with sleeves? Thats how hard he rocks!
<itnet7> Thanks greg-g!!! good to see you again man!
<greg-g> you too :) congrats, you deserve it.
<itnet7> Thanks buddy!
<said026> hello all
<robbiew> slangasek: "dendrobates: robbiew: I am going to miss the release meeting, zul is coming in my place."
<zul> hello
<slangasek> ok, hello
<lool> hey
 * pgraner is here
<pitti> hello
<fader> Hi
<davidbarth> hi
<slangasek> cjwatson, davidm, pitti, Riddell: ping
 * pitti waves again :)
<cjwatson> hi
<slangasek> pitti: doh :)
<rdesfo> hello
<davidm> slangasek, lool will rep mobile team, I'll monitor as I can, I have an ARM call for most of this time
<slangasek> davidm: ack
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-02-20 - agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-02-20 - agenda
<slangasek> sistpoty|work: you're here as well, yes?
 * sistpoty|work waves
<sistpoty|work> yep :)
<slangasek> great :)
<Riddell> hi
<slangasek> so per the agenda, I don't think we need to discuss the outstanding actions this week unless anyone else disagrees?
<pitti> ack
<cjwatson> did the DX/universe questions get resolved?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions
<slangasek> k then :)
<cjwatson> I saw some honking great flamewar about that on #ubuntu-devel the other day
<pitti> we didn't end up with a "blessed" consensus; I think the best one was to decide it on a case-by-case basis
<slangasek> cjwatson: it was discussed thoroughly.  It was resolved to my satisfaction, in that I understand that the DX changes cause the universe packages to be buggy and should be treated the same as other bugfixes to universe
<slangasek> if ScottK disagrees, I guess he can reopen the discussion
<cjwatson> ok, fine by me, I know ScottK isn't here for this
<cjwatson> feel free to move on :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<slangasek> sbeattie, fader: hello
<sbeattie> Ara's running a new feature testing day this upcoming monday (the 23rd) in #ubuntu-testing, with Screen Profiles, New UNR USB images, and Improved Guided LVM partitioner on the agenda.
<sbeattie> otherwise I don't have anything to report, bug escalation through normal channels seems to be working well.
<fader> On the certification testing front, I'm more or less up to speed with getting tests run and as of yesterday they're running automatically on a scheduled basis.  I was hoping to have some visible reporting there by today but it looks like that will be early next week now.
<pgraner> sbeattie: what are they testing dailies or the last alpha?
<sbeattie> pgraner: presumably dailies, to get latest.
<pgraner> sbeattie: ack
<slangasek> sbeattie: escalation> very glad to hear!
<mdz> fader: what can we see today as far as test results?
<fader> mdz: I can put some pass/fail info on a wiki page by hand but you'd need access to the certification website to get the full clickable reports at the moment
<fader> Unfortunately the data isn't in a format I can easily toss out onto the wiki.  Schwuk can but he's out today :/
<slangasek> fader: several of us here have access to the certification website; the challenge has long been getting scannable summaries :)
<fader> Yeah, the summaries are basically what is missing at the moment.
<fader> It's #1 on my list now to get the reporting into a usable state
<mdz> fader: just looking for a summary, listing all machines and current test status. (the format was agreed with Schwuk at UDS)
<mdz> fader: understood, thanks
<slangasek> thanks, guys
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team
<slangasek> pitti, rickspencer3: good morning
<pitti> as usual, the current status is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> noteworthy changes in the desktop this week:
<pitti>  * DX work landed; was a bumpy ride, but everything is in now
<pitti>  * got one RC bug fixed, and a good plan for the fglrx one (bug 313027)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 313027 in fglrx-installer "MASTER: fglrx does not support xserver 1.6" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/313027
<pitti>  * landed stracciatella-session (discussion to approved/implemented in 12 hours or so :) )
<pitti> we are still missing one spec (language-selector UI improvements), I'd like to hear opinions whether that's FF
<pitti>  or UIF
<pitti> on the bug front there wasn't so much progress this week, due to the FF rush
<slangasek> well when presented that way it's hard to say that it's anything *but* UIF; are there details that would make us think it's a FF question instead?
<pitti> slangasek: it doesn't change any functionality
<pitti> so from that perspective there isn't
<pitti> but it's a tracked spec, and it's not yet "beta available"
<pitti> Michael is about to upload it
<pitti> and we often have FF == specs in beta
<cjwatson> great news that we can move from fglrx to ati across the board now
<pitti> so I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page
<cjwatson> do we have a testing plan for that?
<slangasek> pitti: ok - I think common sense trumps the "FF == specs in beta" equality here, please go ahead
<pitti> cjwatson: just saw bryce's response a couple of course ago, I'll bring that up next Tuesday in the meeting
<pitti> slangasek: ok, thanks
<rtg> pitti: Bryce told me last week there were kernel changes for ATI, I haven't seen 'em yet
<pitti> so just consider it an announcement that we'll get the spec done
<slangasek> rtg: AIUI the code isn't ready yet upstream, but Coming Soon
<rtg> ok
<slangasek> we should keep this on the radar for next meeting to make sure it's happening; rtg, can I give you an action to follow up with bryce as needed on the kernel code?
<rtg> can do
<slangasek> [ACTION] rtg to follow up with bryce regarding availability of kernel patches for ATI
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg to follow up with bryce regarding availability of kernel patches for ATI
<slangasek> pitti: anything else?
<pitti> not from me, unless you have questions
<slangasek> pitti: 199140> new on the list this week for the meeting agenda, but was already targeted to jaunty; are you guys tracking jaunty-targeted bugs generally, or do I need to be aware to communicate these bugs to you separately when targeting them?
<pitti> slangasek: do you want tot keep the two nss bugs on the radar?
<pitti> slangasek: 199140> we are aware of it; I talked to asac, it's high on his list
<slangasek> pitti: I agree with your comments that they're not release blockers, but they seem to be SRU material - I'd like it if we could be more proactive in getting upstream to a decision
<rdesfo> has the wifi issue ever been worked out of 8.10?
<asac> pitti: slangasek: the general MD5 one will not be fixed upstream ... NSS folks said that would still break too much of the web; howver, they wiill provide infrastructure to at least disable md5
<slangasek> asac: do you want to 'wontfix' it then, perhaps?
<asac> slangasek: yes either that or retitle to "nss lacks ability to disable MD5"
<asac> i doubt that we want to SRU that for stable releases though ... they will likely just fix it on trunk and then move on.
<slangasek> rdesfo: we're in a meeting now, I'm afraid that question isn't very on-topic; try #ubuntu or #ubuntu-devel?
<asac> slangasek: imo we can keep it as a oppertunity for jaunty
<slangasek> [ACTION] asac to follow through on bug 312536 (wontfix)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to follow through on bug 312536 (wontfix)
<asac> e.g. remove the milestone
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 312536 in firefox "Stop honoring digital signatures based on MD5 hashes" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/312536
<asac> thanks
<pitti> asac: if you "wontfix" in jaunty, you'll get the floating task back, which is appropriate imho
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile team
<slangasek> lool:
<lool> - Specs: doing ok
<lool> - UNR: packages are up-to-date, however merging of the patches is a bit behind
<lool> - Bugs:
<cjwatson> asac: if you wontfix it, explain what you're doing on the bug so that people don't go nuts
<lool>   * libipc-sharelite-perl FTBFS: still being investigated, slow progress;
<lool>     alignment issue is very likely, but shouldn't be hardware specific
<lool>   * NSLU2: d-i now working and in a good shape (module some preseed adjustments pending), however kernel uses too much memory and the OOM kicks in during install
<asac> cjwatson: ack ... Ill be sensible ;)
<lool>   * missing pselect/ppoll on ARM: discussed last week with proposal to take a contractor to implement; discussed again today over email, pgraner suggests it's too tight for jaunty and should be deferred to when amitk has the time to implement
<lool> pgraner: ^^^ up-to-date comments welcome
<lool> - Moblin2: we might be adding some new universe packages and merging some patches from Moblin2 late in the cycle if that's ok with {motu,ubuntu}-release, this is all on a best effort basis to merge as much as possible from Moblin2; rest will go in a PPA
<lool> - VFP enablement: slow progress on getting VFP patches in performance critical libs due to hang in glibc testsuite (being debugged); glibc supporting vfp hwcaps pushed today, will proceed to enabling libs, testing the actual perf benefits of each lib; also some parallel work in evaluating the target libs with oprofile
<pgraner> lool: I have it in my status, lets wait till then
<lool> That's all topics I have, unless we want to discuss netboot images for release as well
<lool> And persia informs me that we have a draft of the MID testcase now
<slangasek> lool: if you and cjwatson are available about a half hour or so after the meeting, we can talk through the netboot image question then?
<lool> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuMID/Install
<slangasek> ah, excellent
<lool> I'd rather have this on Monday, but if that's too late I'll make myself available
<cjwatson> fine by me either way
<slangasek> Monday is also fine
<lool> Any Qs on the above mobile topics?
<lool> Perhaps I missed on which people want an update?
<slangasek> lool: do you know yet what the set of libraries is that we'll want VFP enablement for, or is getting than answer stalled by the glibc question?
<lool> slangasek: We have a list in the bug report
<lool> at least cairo, pango, gtk+, freetype IIRC; some my be dropped
<lool> *may
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<lool> (if we see no win)
<slangasek> no other questions from me :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team
<lool> pixman, and perhaps libpng/libjpeg
<slangasek> pgraner, rtg: 'lo
<pgraner> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/319729: ARM architecture lacks support for pselect() and ppoll()
<pgraner> â Won't be in Jaunty. Currently not upstream nor does upstream plan on fixing. We will have to fix this ourselves and we are currently resource constrained. Given the estimated incidence rate by Keybuck I think we can wait, we will have it for Jaunty+1
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 319729 in linux "ARM architecture lacks support for pselect() and ppoll()" [High,Triaged]
<pgraner> lool: does this work for the Mobile Team?
<slangasek> pgraner: the "estimated incidence rate" I saw was that one in a thousand boots will hang waiting for the rootfs
<lool> I have to trust your judgment on that; my understand until last week was that it was an important issue to fix; if Scott and yourself consider it not critical enough, I defer to your judgment
<pgraner> slangasek: correct, and given when we release there won't be any production hw in the field I think we are ok
<Keybuk> slangasek: will abort because the root fs cannot be found
<slangasek> pgraner: and there won't be any production hw based on jaunty, either?
<Keybuk> the failure drops you to a root console
<slangasek> Keybuk: right
<lool> slangasek: I think there will be, but probably not on pristine jaunty
<lool> Of course we will have community usage of the jaunty armel port
<pgraner> slangasek: once its complete we can add it as an SRU, but trying to cram it in before release will be tight
<slangasek> lool: so we're expecting third parties to use a different kernel, or just hoping for an SRU?
<pgraner> lool: and at this point the community knows how to deal with situations like that. I vote for release note
<lool> pgraner: What's the note?  reboot?
<lool> "Cross your fingers!"   ;-)
<pgraner> lool: we note that its a bug and will be fixed in an update
<lool> I'm ok with a jaunty SRU
<slangasek> pgraner: ok, can you please open a task on the ubuntu-release-notes project?
 * ogra would consider the NSLU2 production though
<pgraner> slangasek: ack
<slangasek> if we say "will be fixed in an update" in the release notes, then we should be sure the resources will be available to actually implement it in SRU
<ogra> not overly important or high prio, but we support it
<slangasek> is that the case?
<slangasek> [ACTION] pgraner to add a release notes task for bug #319729
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to add a release notes task for bug #319729
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 319729 in linux "ARM architecture lacks support for pselect() and ppoll()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/319729
<pgraner> slangasek: I am committing the resource I just can't get it done before the release
<lool> slangasek: Perhaps we should have a milestone for jaunty-SRU-needs-to-be-fixed
<slangasek> pgraner: ok, understood
<pgraner> lool: we target it for Jauntu-Updates
<cjwatson> I'll create a jaunty-updates milestone
<slangasek> pgraner: other topics?
<pgraner> slangasek: yep
<pgraner> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/88746: ehci-hcd causes USB2.0 I/O errors
<pgraner> â This appears not to affect 2.6.28 kernels, therefore Jaunty should be ok. Need to have this verified.
<pgraner> â¢ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/321474: ath9k ForceXPAon messages
<pgraner> â Currently in Fix Committed
<pgraner> â¢ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/320813: compiz freezes with vblank
<pgraner> â Waiting on upstream patch review
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Ubuntu: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/88746/+text)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 321474 in linux "[Intrepid] Update kernel to Linux 2.6.27.13" [Medium,Fix committed]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 320813 in linux "[drm] compiz animations cause temporary freezes with vblank" [High,In progress]
<cjwatson> lool: (done)
<lool> cjwatson: thanks
<pgraner> slangasek: if there aren't any questions I'm done...
<slangasek> pgraner: who's working with upstream on bug #320813; I see the bug is assigned to rtg, but should I reassign it to tjaalton?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 320813 in linux "[drm] compiz animations cause temporary freezes with vblank" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/320813
<rtg> how about xen for EC2?
<pgraner> slangasek: you can give it to rtg
<rtg> actually, Timo is working the bug
<pgraner> rtg: can you track for the purpose of this meeting?
<slangasek> good news on bug #88746 - I still have an action from last week to try to follow up on that given that the bug log is a huge mess
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 88746 in linux "ehci_hcd module causes I/O errors in USB 2.0 devices" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/88746
<rtg> np, I've been working with him on it
<slangasek> pgraner, rtg: I'll still assign the bug to tjaalton if that's ok, since it appears to be blocking on him (+ upstream)
<rtg> ack
<pgraner> slangasek: fine by me
<slangasek> rtg: xen> this has been mentioned to me, but I don't know the current status of it?
<pgraner> rtg: Xen on EC2 we need to talk to dendrobates first, he might have updated info
<pgraner> rtg: he wan't able to make the meeting
<slangasek> ok
<rtg> ok. I know its driving Andy nuts
<pgraner> rtg: ack
<zul> yes it has a tendency to do that
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> ok, bugs first
<cjwatson> 325690 (udev breaks cryptsetup initramfs hook): just fixed an hour or two ago
<cjwatson> 292159 (kernel upgrade fails on usb-creator images): no progress yet, evand will work on it next week
<cjwatson> 322483 (update-manager fails over remote GDM): no progress, I think mvo is looking for advice on an appropriate test harness though
<cjwatson> 313218 (IPv6 causes slow Internet access): proposed fix in my PPA, waiting for testing; if you have mysteriously broken Internet in some applications after upgrading to Jaunty, please consider if this might be your bug; evand just said that it fixes things for him so I'll probably upload this today
<cjwatson> 303516 (passwd gives wrong return code on failure): AFAIK same status as last week, i.e. expecting upstream progress in the next couple of weeks
<cjwatson> 44194 (wpasupplicant interfaces don't start right with separate /usr partition): no progress; I plan to look at this next week if nobody beats me to it
<cjwatson> 309215 (python-numpy vs. pygtk package split): no progress
<cjwatson> 325257 (migration-assistant incompatible with encrypted home directories): encrypted home directories are disabled in ubiquity now due to security team concerns over encrypted swap, postponed to later
<cjwatson> specs, just had a quick chat with Robbie; almost everything is in place to our satisfaction for feature freeze, things that are late are a decision on shipping computer-janitor by default, not sure what's happening with power management reorg, and some movement on the package licensing stuff
<slangasek> 303516> upstream has committed a fix, but I haven't had a chance to evaluate whether it has other horrible OMG side-effects
<cjwatson> pitti: liw was trying to talk with you to justify including computer-janitor by default on the grounds that it does a number of things not appropriate at upgrade time, but I think you were busy at the time; did he manage to actually have a conversation with you? :-)
<cjwatson> he posted to ubuntu-desktop@ but there were no followups, and asked on #distro but nobody replied
<pitti> cjwatson: didn't hear from him, we just had a quick talk on the sprint
<slangasek> cjwatson: ack on 325257, thanks
<pitti> but I have no principal reservations about including it by default, if it works
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to document in technical overview for alpha-5 that encrypted home dirs are disabled in ubiquity
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to document in technical overview for alpha-5 that encrypted home dirs are disabled in ubiquity
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2009-February/001951.html and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2009-February/001952.html are the relevant mailing list posts
<pitti> ok, please assign an action to me to followup on that
<robbiew> thanks pitti :)
<slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to follow up with liw on computer-janitor by default
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up with liw on computer-janitor by default
<slangasek> cjwatson, robbiew: anything else to cover?
<cjwatson> GTK installer I'm still unsure about
<cjwatson> Sven Neumann was recently working on getting the directfb backend working upstream
<cjwatson> I'd like to get those patches in so that we can have a lead time on getting the d-i GTK frontend working in Ubuntu, if the desktop team is amenable; but at the moment I am not inclined to recommend it for actual *use* with 9.04
<lool> cjwatson: So directfb is an important target for Ubuntu-Installer?
<robbiew> slangasek: doko is still working to get python 2.6 by default...has concerns with application compatibility
<lool> AFAIK, the scrolling issues are still not fixed after all patches went in
<cjwatson> not as important as continuing the newt frontend, but I want to get moving on it, yes
<cjwatson> yes, I realise it is not quite right yet
<lool> cjwatson: Do you want gtk-installer images in 9.04?
<pitti> cjwatson: I'm fine with taking patches to unbreak gtk-directfb
<pitti> but I really doubt that we should invest much resources on working on the new installer in jaunty
<slangasek> robbiew: well, frankly this is why I think the default python version should be settled well before FF
<lool> The patches are all below directfb/ so they are really not risky to take
<cjwatson> lool: yes, I don't plan to have them on the server CD or anything but I would like to unstall on this
<cjwatson> pitti: I agree, but I think you overestimate the amount it will take on the installer side once the core facility is there
<cjwatson> I'm not asking for serious work from the desktop team beyond what's being done in Debian
<slangasek> robbiew: as ScottK commented to me, this is effectively "toolchain"
<cjwatson> nor am I committing serious additional work from the installer team beyond what's being done in Debian
<robbiew> slangasek: understand
<pitti> cjwatson: well, without any work it'll probably more shiny, but not more usable?
<pitti> cjwatson: i. e. for it to make really sense, wouldnt' we need a rearranged partitioner and all that? or is all that coming from debian already?
<cjwatson> pitti: indeed, but shiny alone will be helpful at this point
<robbiew> slangasek: worse case scenario is that we stay on 2.5 and provide 2.6 in the archive, as I understand it
<cjwatson> and will make it easier to even assess the scale of the problem
<slangasek> robbiew: what's the timeline for making that call?
<cjwatson> if we keep on blocking on infrastructure, it's impossible for me to get back to Steve George and say how to proceed
<pitti> cjwatson: okay :)
<robbiew> doko is working over the weekend, so I would expect to know by Monday
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> pitti: I agree that at present it is not a major win, but it's possible that we may want to commit some time in future cycles to doing something about that
<robbiew> slangasek: nothing else from me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team
<zul> hi
<slangasek> hello
<zul> we didnt get a codedrop for likewise-open and will be considering it for a FFE
<slangasek> ok
<zul> i think thats about it from me
<slangasek> 305264> I'm current on the status of this because I just talked to mathiaz yesterday afternoon about it
<slangasek> 332961> this is highlighted as a security issue; is anyone on the security team in the loop on the progress of that merge?
<jdstrand> slangasek: is that the right bug number?
<slangasek> no :)
<slangasek> 322961
<slangasek> jdstrand: "moodle"
<jdstrand> slangasek: kees was working on moodle. I don't know the status of the merge
<slangasek> I know I heard kees talking about it, and I see that LaserJock has taken the merge a while ago now
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to poll LaserJock, kees on status of moodle merge
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to poll LaserJock, kees on status of moodle merge
<jdstrand> re 305264> I'm working on the gnutls portion today
<slangasek> excellent
<zul> slangasek: also there seems to be an issue with the samba-3.3 if you enable printers it seems to segfault i was able to reproduce it locally
<zul> 330626 is the bug number
<slangasek> zul: please escalate the bug (target to jaunty)
<zul> its done already
<slangasek> no, it isn't
<slangasek> it needs to be targeted to the jaunty release, not just milestoned
<zul> ok
<slangasek> thanks
<DktrKranz> s/clear
<DktrKranz> oops! sorry!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> sistpoty|work: hello
<sistpoty|work> well, not too much to report from my side
<sistpoty|work> currently FF front is still pretty calm
<slangasek> how has the merge queue been, following james_w's mail to ubuntu-motu?
<slangasek> merge/sync
<sistpoty|work> haven't seen too much of the queue myself actually :(
<DktrKranz> quite calm, there haven't been troubles so far
<slangasek> good to hear
<DktrKranz> I've just seen doko's email and related bug report, I think it will bring some work in the next days, but it should be not too hard to accomplish
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> ok, thanks guys
<slangasek> [TOPIC] General feature update
<MootBot> New Topic:  General feature update
<slangasek> davidbarth: I don't currently have a slot in the agenda for your team, but this seems to be your area somewhat :)  are there any further pending changes for jaunty that you'd like to share with us?
<davidbarth> slangasek: the list of applications we intend to patch is up on the wiki now
<davidbarth> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD
<slangasek> good to know
<davidbarth> slangasek: unfortunately, we cannot commit to anything concrete for kubuntu for this release
<davidbarth> slangasek: we'll have more resources for that in March, but too late for the release
<slangasek> ok
<davidbarth> if there are questions or bugs related to the new modules, we now have LP projects opened to welcome them
<slangasek> any general features from the other teams that we should talk about?
<slangasek> davidbarth: matching the package names, I guess?
<pitti> desktop team> complete except language selector
<davidbarth> slangasek: yes (wondering if there are execeptions... not that i can think of)
<slangasek> davidbarth: fair enough :)
<pitti> davidbarth: btw, I'm just training Ken van Dine to do package updates, he's available to help out with fixing DX stuff
<davidbarth> slangasek: one important thing though, as we patch quite a few applications locally (and work with upstream in parallel), the bugs should be tagged 'dxteam'
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD - includes list of packages being patched for jaunty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD - includes list of packages being patched for jaunty
<davidbarth> slangasek: i've emailed the qa team about that
<slangasek> davidbarth: alright
<davidbarth> pitti: cool, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Known regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Known regressions
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
<slangasek> The above list is pretty calm; if you run into bugs that are regressions vs. Ubuntu 8.10, please don't hesitate to make use of this tag
<slangasek> marking a bug as a regression doesn't imply a committment to fix the regression for release - there will always be some of these regressions that we release-note instead - but it's important to have good information about what the regressions are that are out there
<slangasek> I don't like learning about regressions from magazine reviews of the released product ;)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
<MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
<slangasek> with alpha-5 next week, this is a timely topic
<slangasek> FWIW, I've just finished the mono transition at last, so libmono-corlib1.0-cil is off the CDs, giving us back about a MB
<slangasek> I tried to turn up some langpacks in return, but it seems that language-support-* is enormous these days?
<slangasek> turning it on for just pt+de cost us around 80MB on the live CD
<slangasek> pitti: do you have any insights there?
<pitti> slangasek: you shouldn't add language-support-*
<pitti> it has always been enormous
<slangasek> ah
<pitti> and it's a compromise we accepted
<pitti> if people install with network, the installer fetches them from the net
<cjwatson> right, and if it can't, it notifies after reboot (nowadays)
<pitti> otherwise they'll get a notification (oooh!) on first run to install the missing ones
<slangasek> ok, I see the problem; an entire stanza went away from live because we no longer had any langpacks on amd64
<cjwatson> I'm just talking with David in /msg about that ;-)
<slangasek> I'll readd the stanza and try again :)
<pitti> slangasek: language-pack-* is more importnat, since it at least allows people to understand the desktop in their native language
<slangasek> yes
<cjwatson> I think I can trim a couple of MB off the server CD; I see some udeb junk there
<slangasek> fwiw, language-support-pt also has a weird dependency on brazilian-conjugate - I don't know why we think Portuguese speakers need us to give them a commandline tool for conjugating verbs
<slangasek> (if the spellchecker needs it, the spellchecker should pull it in...)
<slangasek> otherwise, things seem to be amazingly well on track for CD sizes for jaunty - I didn't expect us to be in this good of shape considering how much of a struggle intrepid was
<slangasek> the mono transition and the desktop team's work on documentation splitting have helped with that, kudos to all involved
<pitti> slangasek: if that shouldn't be there, I'm happy to drop it
<pitti> usually I follow the advice of native speakers in the translation teams
<pitti> slangasek: yeah, I guess the evo documentation split out, mono transition, and gconf cleanup freed a fair bit of space :)
<slangasek> pitti: it shouldn't - do you want a bug report first?  and is there documentation of why it was added to begin with?
<pitti> slangasek: I can probably find out in bzr
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> I think that covers everything for this morning on my side; anyone else have something to add?
<pgraner> slangasek: my action is completed... :-)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:28.
<slangasek> thanks folks!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<pitti> slangasek: might just have been an accident, it's built from the same source as  myspell-pt
<pitti> slangasek: it's tiny, though (100 kB)
<slangasek> pitti: the reason I noticed it was because it pulls in gawk :-)
<pitti> ah, heh
<slangasek> which is 5 times its size :)
<pitti> slangasek: ok, kicking it out
<rdesfo> how do people get more involved?
<rdesfo> well thanks have a nice day
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-02-21
<MK-BB> Hi
<Mamarok> ogra: you around?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-22
<Speedy2> www.search2.net
<elky> Is that a typo or are you spamming us?
<vish> elky: spam
<elky> it does appear that now
<vish> elky: i'v just reported it to the ops, its been happening in several channels
<elky> Yeah, i noted. I was going to see if they were a human who could be reasoned with.
<dholbach> good morning
<mdeslaur> jdstrand, kees: meeting?
<kees> mdeslaur: ah, yes.  it's that time, isn't it?
<kees> jdstrand: ready?
<mdeslaur> kees: my calendar thinks it is :)
<jdstrand> o/
<kees> :)
<jdstrand> yes
<kees> okidoky
<kees> this week, OOo publication, and then going to check for any low-hanging fruit
<persia> If there's time in the agenda, can I grumble a bit about community integration at the end?
<kees> I'd like to finish some of the qrt stuff I had on my plate (like the additional RNG tests)
<kees> persia: totally
<mdeslaur> persia: yes
<persia> THanks.
<kees> probably going to start another kernel update cycle soon too
<kees> looks like we made feature freeze pretty well.
<kees> that's it from me.  mdeslaur, you're up.
<mdeslaur> I just published pidgin updates. I plan on attacking the new squid issue, and the ffmpeg updates next.
<mdeslaur> besides that, I'm on community, so have been going down the sponsoring list
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it
 * jjohansen fades in late
<jdstrand> so I guess I'm up next
<jdstrand> I am triager this week
<jdstrand> I plan to talk to soren walk me through kvm-autotest to see how we can use it in QRT for our gui applications. it should be totally doable
<kees> oooh, I was just thinking about that today in the shower -- I wanted to see if I could build an OOo test
<jdstrand> kees: exactly (though for me it was firefox)
<kees> I worry about use having different resolutions, languages, installed applications in our VMs, though.
<mdeslaur> wouldn't Mago be more appropriate for that?
<jdstrand> I looked at it a it on my own last week, but it was not...
<jdstrand> obvious...
<kees> yeah
<jdstrand> how to use it in that capacity
<jdstrand> soren gave that presentation at the sprint and seems to think it shouldn't be a problem-- so I'm hopeful :)
<persia> Mago requires accessibility support.  kvm-autotest requires reliable display parameters (which kvm can provide).
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I looked at Mago a bit, but didn't find documentation on how to really get into it
<jdstrand> plus what persia mentioned
 * robbiew sneaks in the back door :/
<mdeslaur> I'm just kind of afraid with kvm-autotest that it will be hard to always have a 100% reproducable environment
<jdstrand> I plan to see what is next on the 'what CVE to fix next' list, and do that
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I think we can with snapshots, etc
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: anyway, I'm investigating right now, not integrating :)
<mdeslaur> ok, fair enough :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: don't forget, I run my VMs at 1920x1080
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: if you have some good resources for mago, I'd like them too
<kees> jdstrand: if you start getting somewhere with it, let me know and I can "reproduce locally"  :)
<kees> mdeslaur: seriously?
<mdeslaur> kees: no
<kees> hah
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: well, I take you point. these would likely have to be 'special' VMs anyway (ie, kvm-autotest and libvirt doesn't make sense afaict)
<mdeslaur> oh, okay
<jdstrand> but anyway, we'll see-- I just thought there might be something there, and soren is willing to walk me through it
 * kees hopes to re-use the libvirt-configured VMs
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: don't forget to bug soren as much as possible while he's still on the payroll :)
<jdstrand> kees: me too... we'll see
<jdstrand> I might be able to wrap stuff, etc, like I did with vm-tools. but like I said, I've barely looked at it :)
<jdstrand> anyhoo
<jdstrand> if I have time, I'd like to see if I can clean up the apparmor abstractions, esp for firefox/evince
<jdstrand> that's it for duties. I do have two items to bring up-- one is I'm fairly sure related to what persia wants to talk about
<jdstrand> persia: why don't you go ahead?
<persia> Probably :)
<persia> OK.  jdstrand and I have been having a productive conversation in a thread at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2010-February/006550.html
<persia> Summarised, the TB and DMB have approved a proposal that significantly limits the scope of "MOTU".
<persia> So, since "MOTU" no longer maps well to "community supported", I'd like to see some initiative from the wider security team (potentially including current members of MOTU SWAT) to define a process that supports the entire archive wihout relying on the scope of MOTU.
<kees> sounds good to me.
<jdstrand> that makes sense to me, but, tbh, it is clear to me how "community supported" is being defined in the new world. I guess "not in officially supported" is one definition, but there then is a team surrounding "not officially supported"
<jdstrand> err
<jdstrand> s/is/isn't/
 * persia much prefers "not supported by Canonical" to "not officially supported", but yes, this needs thought.
<jdstrand> fair enough
<kees> we'll have the help of the Supported: tag in the packages files
<persia> It's going to be a bit before everything is implemented, so there's time, but it seems appropriate to start thinking about it now so that we don't get caught later.
<jdstrand> yeah, that defines our responsibilities
<mdeslaur> persia: Is there anything you see that would need changing in our current process?
 * kees mumbles something about syncSource ACLs in LP
<jdstrand> persia: also, not pointing fingers or being judgemental, but motu-swat has not been active for a while. the reasons are numerous and in part due to lack of process from ubuntu-security (which should all be fixed now)
<persia> mdeslaur: Were I designing the process, and noting that my understanding of your process is entirely based on jdstrand7s email, I'd probably only do the following:
<kees> no amount of our process can reduce the bottleneck that is LP's lack of ACLs, though.
<persia> 1) declare an inclusive security group with responsibility for everything (although some members may concentrate in certain areas).
<kees> but, outside of that, I'd agree: we've tuned the process to eliminate human bottlenecks as much as possible
<persia> 2) encourage all members of that group to actively review and sponsor stuff.
<jdstrand> kees: yes, but if more people submitted patches and more people joined ubuntu-security-sponsors, I think we could handle the publishing bits ok
<persia> 3) have a restricted set that is responsible for pocket copies and USN releases.
<jdstrand> (I'd love to see the volume of community supported patches be a real problem for us)
<persia> I think that's mostly a matter of making sure submitters feel entitled as part of the team.
<mdeslaur> persia: this is the team that has responsibility of reviewing everything: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security-sponsors
<persia> I know that when we do stuff in MOTU that involves telling people that submitting patches makes them Ubuntu Developers, we get more patches.
<kees> persia: 3 exists, 2's element of "encourage" hasn't happened, though we've asked the community team for help there. 1 exists as ubuntu-security-sponsors, IIUC
<persia> kees: I think you're right, and that it's just a matter of semantics and communication.
<jdstrand> well, the ubuntu-security team itself is how it is due to ACLs and requiring the possibility for embargoed issues.
<jdstrand> it could I guess be a subteam in this whole thing...
<jdstrand> kees: your understanding is correct on '1'
<kees> persia: our problem has traditionally been that of motivating others; we're usually utterly slammed for time, and doing coaching, blogging, etc can be very time-consuming.
<jdstrand> keep in mind, that the new process for sponsoring security uploads is just that: new this cycle. I personally wanted to see how it worked for a little bit to make sure it was sane
<jdstrand> however, we are fully integrated into the MOTU pages now-- from dholbach's reports, to Sponsoring pages to how you can help
<persia> I understand entirely :)  I just wanted to raise the point, because while I think all the process stuff jdstrand mentioned in the email was good, I found some of the phrasing and language exclusive, and based on previous meeting logs, though it was pervasive in the sematics of the team, rather than being jdstrand's email.
<jdstrand> the only thing that wasn't done was an email to ubuntu-motu@ and ubuntu-devel@
<mdeslaur> persia: right now, we always have one team member who is on active community-sponsoring duty, so if a bug is opened and a debdiff submitted, it will get reviewed and uploaded in a few days.
<persia> mdeslaur: Right.  I think that's great.  I just want to highlight that there are likely to be other groups than MOTU active in universe, and that this probably has implications related to the semantics of your communications.
<jdstrand> persia: there is a difference between canonical supported and community supported, and a necessary exclusivity in some ways-- it is our team's job to take care of canonical supported pacakges. our name is on the USN, it is in the emails to bugtraq, etc. in some ways, submitting a debdiff for a package in main is a lot like just giving us a VCS link to a fix
<jdstrand> persia: that said, I don't want to appear as exclusive
<persia> Heh.
<persia> I understand the difficulty, and don't want to complicate things :)
<jdstrand> that didn't come out quite right
<jdstrand> I want people involved, but there is very much a difference between a community supported package and a canonical supported, from our point of view
<persia> There are differences between the set of things that is done related to embargoes and USNs and pocket copies.
<jdstrand> I'm not sure that matters though-- there is so much to do in community supported packages that just isn't happening now
<persia> I'm less confident there's a meaningful difference between "main" and "universe" for stuff that isn't embargoed.
<persia> (because any dev can upload it)
<kees> there is -- it's an SRU
<jdstrand> persia: are we talking about stable releases or devel?
<kees> so, when something goes into main, we're responsible for it.
<persia> Don't you do both?
<jdstrand> persia: stable and devel? yes
<jdstrand> persia: but we are directly responsible for main/restricted
<jdstrand> for stable
<jdstrand> in fact, a supported configuration is running an Ubuntu system with -security but without -updates
<persia> Right.  I think we havea  close to common understanding of stuff.
<persia> I agree there needs to be a distinction for certain folks active in security.
<jdstrand> sure-- I think it is perhaps a matter of perspective, and my language is tainted by my perspective
<persia> I just think there needs to be a distro-wide security team of some sort (which may well be ubuntu-security-sponsors) that is highlighted as a central team, rather than relying on each developer team to grow it's own security folk.
<persia> Mine too :)
<kees> I'm actually not convinced that's the right thing to do.
<kees> I think each developer team needs to know how to handle stable security updates.
<kees> they're much more familiar with the code and how to test
<persia> OK.  How do we deal with security for stuff not handled by the restricted set of security developers then?
<kees> I'm not saying we shouldn't have a general security team, but I don't think we should discourage security work by devel teams
<persia> can we convince each team to grow a security representative?  Or would we do better to have a central coordnation team that reached out when CVEs were published?
<persia> Just as a semantic note: I consider teams to be massively overlapped, so I'd hope that individual developers might participate in several teams.
<kees> I think each team should at least have a security representative -- perhaps the same person that deals with SRUs.
<jdstrand> kees: I was not trying to discourage anyone, and would hope that people from the dev teams would provide patches for their stuff (with testing)
<kees> jdstrand: right, i was replying persia's "rather than relying on each developer team to grow it's own security folk."
<persia> OK.  This could work.  In that case, there *should* be a MOTU swat, but each developer team should also havea  similar body.
<jdstrand> ah
<kees> since I *do* want devteams to grow security folk
<kees> persia: I think that would be ideal, yes.  however, we've had a very hard time growing either type of person.  :)
<persia> I don't think we need to continue having a hard time :)
<persia> Just petition the tech board to add a requirement that devteams nominate some -security and -updates contacts.
<jdstrand> the devel release is often much more exciting than a stable release for most people
<kees> persia: how would that be tracked in LP/
<persia> And that those contacts are expected to participate in discussions with the central -updates and -security teams (so they'd be at this meeting).
<kees> s#/#?#
<persia> kees: Nominees would be added to ubuntu-security-sponsors and fill roles similar to that of motu swat today.
<kees> I'm looking for a way for an outsider to answer the question "who is the security contact for [team]?" when looking at LP.
<jdstrand> persia: so anyone could provide the debdiff (including the devteam) and then the rep from the devteam in ubuntu-security-sponsors could ack it
<jdstrand> ?
<persia> kees: A wiki page?
<persia> jdstrand: And with luck the security rep from the devteam helps in other ways, but yes.
<kees> persia: okay, seems disconnected from LP a bit, but it's the best we've got.
<persia> kees: The other alternative is to have special teams like ubuntu-desktop-security, but I don't think that scales.
<kees> the issue is finding someone that can help with testing.  no one likes testing ancient stable releases.  :(
<persia> LP needs to get smarter before we have that feature.
<persia> That's why you get the TB to require devteams to nominate someone :)
<jdstrand> yeah, last stable is about as far back as people like to test
<kees> I want to avoid this person from becoming a bottleneck, though, and I worry that might become socially tricky.
<kees> "You never checked with me about this patch!"   "You weren't online."  etc
<jdstrand> I can imagine an ack on a patch, but waiting on testing
<persia> kees: Could we work around that by a combination of "Ubuntu doesn't have maintainers" and allowing a devteam to nominate several members rather than one if coordination may be an issue?
<jdstrand> kees: I think that should be solved be our sponsorship process
<jdstrand> (it, ACKs, etc in LP)
<kees> I guess my entire opinion is best summarized by "I would love more people participating, but since that number is approaching zero, I see no reason to impose groups/lists/etc"
<persia> Fair.  I'm just concerned about the packages that are no longer cared for by MOTU slipping through the cracks.
<mdeslaur> kees: I agree with that...once we actually _get_ debdiffs we can start looking how to increase sponsoring, etc.
<kees> wel, to be honest, they already are slipping through the cracks.
<persia> OK, maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong direction then.
<persia> (and feel free to change topic if time is short)
<kees> stefanlsd and jstrand helped a great deal to close the crack with the sync-finder and sync-doer, though
<persia> Perhaps we ought think about "How do we extend the security process to more actively encourage patch submissions from devteams to the security team?"
<jdstrand> persia: that is the question
<kees> but, I mean, the list is huge even after that: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/universe.html
<persia> As long as we answer that question in a way that works with Archive Reorg, all my concerns about MOTU SWAT are resolved.
<jdstrand> persia: that is what we tried to do with our recent procedural changes (so it isn't a wholly new process)
<kees> persia: right, I like that.  I like _anything_ that'll get more people helping.
<persia> OK.  So, I suggest that explicity expecting devteams to actively track at least open CVEs in their packagesets is a place to start.
<persia> Until MOTU's responsibility gets smaller, I'm unsure MOTU SWAT can keep up, but it sets a model that means that as new devteams are formed, they are already participating in the process.
<james_w> integration with harvest could be a good idea
<persia> That also skips the requirement for specific nominees, etc. (although if you add a request to report in this meeting, a natural nominee will likely emerge)
<kees> persia: yeah, I do like the idea of solidifying "expecting devteams to actively track at least open CVEs in their packagesets"
<jdstrand> I'm not sure what that will get us, but we'll see
<persia> kees: And would you be willing to add "expecting devteams to report on the progress of such tracking during the weekly security team meeting"?
<kees> persia: sure, I guess that would be good.
<persia> Well, that combination matches my preferred mental model well enough that I'm completely satisfied :)
<kees> persia: where should these suggested idea be presented?  TB or DMB?
<kees> I assume TB
<persia> TB: it'S the TB that is responsible for approving devteams.  The DMB only approves membership changes in devteams if so delegated.
 * kees nods
<persia> jdstrand: did you have anything else on this, or shall we move to the second of your "two things"?
<jdstrand> persia: I'm pretty much of the same mind as everyone-- more involvement is good. how we get there is rather secondary to me
<kees> persia: I've added this to the TB agenda now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<jdstrand> simply put, I don't have anything else
<persia> kees: Excellent :)
<kees> jdstrand: oh, I thought you had a second item, non-overlapping with persia?
<jdstrand> kees: I do, I was letting go of persia's sleeve is all
<kees> hah, ok
<jdstrand> the other thing is a bit of a clarification on security support in -backports
<jdstrand> specifically bug #411849
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 411849 in hardy-backports "Please backport security fix for USN-812-1 in subversion 1.5" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/411849
<jdstrand> my understanding was that it is up to the backports team to do this type of thing
<kees> I agree 100%
<jdstrand> alright, so, so I guess that is it on that then
<jdstrand> ubuntu-security got dragged into that bug and it seemed at least worth reviewing
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, backports is not our problem in the least, IMO.
<jdstrand> I agree (and responded as such in the bug)
<kees> if anyone feels differently, I'm all ears, but my operating principle has been to ignore -backports totally.
<kees> okay, cool
<kees> anyone have anything else?
<mdeslaur> not me
<kees> thanks everyone!
<jdstrand> o
<jdstrand> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-23
<lifeless> StevenK: do you stillhave my mini usb adapter?
<lifeless> mini-ide--usb that is
<StevenK> That's an awfully good question ...
<StevenK> I thought I returned it
<lifeless> Did I give you the plastic cover, or jsut the guts?
<lifeless> reason I ask, isn't because I need it back - I don't atm
<lifeless> but because i'm tifying up, if I just gave you the guts and I find a plastic outer, I'll know what to do with it :)
<StevenK> You gave me the plastic cover and the guts
<lifeless> ok cool
<TheMuso> amachu: Hi
<persia> Oh, it's a fourth week, isn't it.
<lifeless> yah
<persia> So we just need freeflying amachu and elky ?
<lifeless> that would give us 6
<lifeless> what is quora
<persia> We've been operating on 4
<persia> So any one of them.
 * persia has no idea as to the actual determinants or rules, and is loosely guided by the "everyone has veto except when they don't" model
<lifeless> only vish is here
<lifeless> elky: ping
<lifeless> freeflying: ping
<lifeless> amachu: ping
<persia> Does the string "ping" actually do anything in te default configurations of any clients?
<lifeless> annoys people
<lifeless> I don't know of a client where it does something special
<persia> Well, sure, but how is it different from hilighting in other ways?
<persia> Well, I've seen plugins where it automatically gets rejected, sometimes with a contentless-pong response.
<lifeless> persia: its not
<lifeless> persia: the main thing was <nick>: which is all some clients highlight on
<persia> Ah.
<TheMuso> so...
<freeflying> lifeless: pong
<freeflying> lifeless: sorry, for late
<persia> lifeless: You remembered about it: you're chair :)
<lifeless> persia: amachu emailed us
<lifeless> vish: are you there?
<vish> hi.
<lifeless> persia: do you know how to drive mootbot ?
<lifeless> vish: tell us about yourself and your contributions to Ubuntu
<vish> Hi.. I'm Vishnoo from Chennai , India. I mainly do artwork , mockups for Ubuntu projects and Triage bug reports in launchpad.
<persia> lifeless: You start with "startmeeting" proceeded by '#'
<persia> And it gives you instructions in /query
<lifeless> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 04:29. The chair is lifeless.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<vish> A list of the Ubuntu projects for which I'v made contributions are listed in the wiki page. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/vish
<vish> Initially, when I started contributing , it more because I was surprised that Ubuntu OS was a community project, and wondered if i could _really_ help make a difference to an OS.
<vish> As i got more involved , I got more familiar with the projects ,people and noticed that my contributions were warmly welcomed , appreciated and encouraged.
<vish> I started contributing more.
<vish> And nowadays I spend a few hours of my day working on Ubuntu projects
<lifeless> persia: freeflying: TheMuso: I've got enough; if you have questions for vish please ask away.
<lifeless> back in a sec, grabbing more water
<amachu> back
 * persia is very familiar with vish, and has no specific questions
<amachu> got out on a important issue
<persia> Hrm, actually, I do have a question.
<persia> vish: Why did you not ask for people to support you in this meeting in some of the IRC channels and mailing lists in which you are most active?
<lifeless> amachu: no worries, we're doing the do
<persia> (or even announce your membership intent)
<lifeless> persia: looks like vish got testamonials organised for the meeting - today even
<sagaci> is this a membership interview or a public meeting
<lifeless> sagaci: yes
<vish> persia: oh.. I never knew the memberships need to be announced on mailing lists. I told the people who were most aware of my work to submit testimonials , since I wasnt sure of the timings
<persia> vish: Fair enough.  I just didn't see anything about it, but it seems to have worked for you.
<lifeless> vish: they don't :P
<persia> There's certainly no protocol, but often there's public requests for help in some forum.
<lifeless> freeflying: TheMuso: any comments/questions?
<TheMuso> not from me.
<lifeless> freeflying: if you don't have questions shortly I'll suggest we move to voting
<freeflying> lifeless: no
<lifeless> so, votes
<lifeless> +1 from me
<TheMuso> +1 from me also.
<persia> +1 : great work.  membership is long overdue.
 * persia points out that the nifty [VOTE] feature could be used.
<lifeless> persia: you had the chance to organise :P
<lifeless> so #stopmeeting
<persia> end
<lifeless> #stopmeeting
<lifeless> #end
<lifeless> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 04:47.
<persia> But we're looking for another vote.
<lifeless> #needsabetterUI
<persia> Yes :)
<amachu> +1 vish
<lifeless> amachu: will you do the group adding and notification ?
<amachu> ya ya
<amachu> lifeless: sure
<lifeless> sweet
<vish> thanks all.. :)
<lifeless> vish: congrats
<hyperair> congrats vish =)
<persia> vish: Welcome!
<vish> thank you :)
<vish> persia: usually how many days does it take to reflect new Ubuntu membership on user's lp teams?
<persia> Zero to one.
<persia> You're just waiting on amachu to organise things.
<vish> ah , ok.. thanks..
<persia> Is there something urgent that needs it done *now*?
<vish> persia: nah , just curiosity ;)
<persia> The entire process of getting membership and all the cascade things usually takes a week or so.
<persia> And then you have to go through all the voluntary steps (like arranging and ordering your cards, etc.)
<persia> That's usually another week.
<vish> yeah..
<persia> But there's another meeting about to start.  If you want to discuss more, please /query
 * ogra waves
<asac> o/
 * StevenK shores
 * GrueMaster nods
<asac> ok guess ncommander isnt here ;)
<asac> lets wait another minute or so
<ogra> yeah
<asac> theni will take the meeting
<StevenK> Where will you take it too?
<ogra> to the END !
<asac> #endmeeting :-P
<ogra> heh
<asac> plars: persia: dyfet: ping
<asac> (persia seems to be here)
<plars> hello :)
<ogra> plars too :)
<asac> dmart: also here?
<asac> cooloney: ericm?
<dmart> Yeah, hi there
<asac> cool. almost complete ;)
 * cooloney waves to asac 
<asac> #startmeeting
<cooloney> eric is in Beijing for business trip.
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:05. The chair is asac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100223
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100223
<asac> [TOPIC] Action Items from February 16th, 2010
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from February 16th, 2010
<asac> *  * asac to arrange the next thumb2 team sprint. * asac to blog about the ARM alpha-3 release. * asac and JamieBennett to discuss the web office spec and come up with a way of moving it forward. * NCommander to link power management spec to dove bugs * GrueMaster to produce a daily report on image testing and add that to the weekly meeting page. * ogra to produce a rootstock test plan.
<asac>  * NCmmander to in vestigate KDE FTBFS issues. * Team to add individual summaries to standing items before meetings.
<asac> ooops ;)
<asac>  * asac to arrange the next thumb2 team sprint.
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RootstockTestplan
<asac>  * asac to blog about the ARM alpha-3 release.
<asac>  * asac and JamieBennett to discuss the web office spec and come up with a way of moving it forward.
 * persia rushes to try to complete the last of those quick-like
<asac>  * NCommander to link power management spec to dove bugs
<asac>  * GrueMaster to produce a daily report on image testing and add that to the weekly meeting page.
<asac>  * ogra to produce a rootstock test plan.
<asac>  * NCommander to investigate KDE FTBFS issues.
<asac>  * Team to add individual summaries to standing items before meetings.
<asac> ok ... so thumb2 team sprint
<asac> i wanted to get a confirm of time before sending out mail to mobile ... 1100 UTC is what i have
<asac> on Thu
<asac> does that match what we discussed?
<persia> Yes, although we were going to do it last week :)
<asac> no
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> matches
<dyfet> yep
<asac> ok i will send the reminder out right after
<asac> [ACTION] asac to blog about the ARM alpha-3 release.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to blog about the ARM alpha-3 release.
<asac> this week is a3
<asac> so that matches
<asac> * asac and JamieBennett to discuss the web office spec and come up with a way of moving it forward.
<ogra> friday is blogging day then :)
<asac> -> we discussed this and found a good compromise using zoho viewer api
<asac> stay tuned
<asac> * NCommander to link power management spec to dove bugs
<asac> -> did this happen, ogra?
 * NCommander kills his laptop
<asac> hi NCommander
 * ogra checks
<NCommander> hey asac, sorry for being late
<asac> no problem ;) ... now i am the lead ;)
<NCommander> needs a c/o
 * StevenK waits for -!- NCommander has quit [Ping timeout]
<asac> StevenK: done
<ogra> NCommander, did you add the dove PM bugs to https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-arm-per-soc-powermanagement ?
<ogra> i dont see them there
<NCommander> ogra: no, it needs a c/o
<ogra> (and didnt get a notification)
<asac> [ACTION] NCommander to link power management spec to dove bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to link power management spec to dove bugs
<ogra> NCommander, do it now, its three clicks ;)
<asac> * GrueMaster to produce a daily report on image testing and add that to the weekly meeting page.
<asac> ?
<GrueMaster> C/o
 * asac carries that over
<asac> can we get that for next week?
<asac> [ACTION] GrueMaster to produce a daily report on image testing and add that to the weekly meeting page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster to produce a daily report on image testing and add that to the weekly meeting page
<asac> * ogra to produce a rootstock test plan.
<asac> -> seems to be done
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RootstockTestplan
<asac> 14:06 < ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RootstockTestplan
<asac> right
<ogra> promoted to plars and GrueMaster last night
<asac> * NCommander to investigate KDE FTBFS issues.
<asac> NCommander: any progress on kde?
<NCommander> asac: its a segfault in kdebindings, but I haven't managed to run it down due to lack of time last week
<asac> ok ... makes sense to keep it on your list?
<ogra> asac, there are more urgent FTBFS since beginning of the week
<persia> NCommander: Riddell specifically asked that it be sorted soon, or smoke disabled for armel in the run up to alpha 3.
<ogra> (which i asked NCommander to look at with help from dyfet )
<persia> NCommander: Needs to be today for a decision because of the freeze.
<ogra> we need these to be fixed for A3
<ogra> they are all apps that are on the images
<asac> so basically today
<NCommander> probably best to disable smoke for kdebindings then
<ogra> thats why i asked NCommander early :)
<asac> ogra: whats the package list blocking a3 atm?
<ogra> but i still see all of them
<asac> evince i guess
<persia> NCommander: Please do that then :)
<asac> eog
<asac> wow
<ogra> asac, keyring and two indicators are FTBFS
<ogra> beyond that gtk is our of sync but should be fine soon
<ogra> *out
<asac> eog is an out of synx thing
<persia> I looked at a lot of these earlier: most of them are failed detections of gtk+2.0 depwait
<ogra> yeah
<asac> ogra: ok. are the gtk bits there? maybe just give back
<persia> squid is the big one, but zul is on it.
<ogra> right
<persia> (with help from lool)
<asac> ogra: gtk failed to build
<ogra> keyring and the two indicators are the issues
<asac> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+2.0/2.19.5-1ubuntu5/+build/1526418/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-armel.gtk+2.0_2.19.5-1ubuntu5_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<asac> so top prio is gtk
<ogra> indeed
<asac> seg fault
<asac> try again
<ogra> though there was just an upload 1/2h ago
<asac> really?
 * asac goes and kicks seb
<ogra> ubuntu6
<ogra> its bratches fault :)
<persia> seb128 seems to be all over the gtk stuff, in good ways.
<ogra> *bratsche
<asac> done
<ogra> seb is only uploading
<asac> right. seb could hold it back next time
<persia> Well, and paying attention to failures and complaining at folks :)
<ogra> asac, no, he couldnt
<ogra> there was a bad bug that made many desktops freeze
<ogra> he and bratsche worked on it for days now
 * ogra was affected 
<ogra> Bug 523949
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 523949 in gtk+2.0 "the csd changes make some desktop applications hog the cpu" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/523949
<ogra> so the upload was essential
<asac> ogra: right
<asac> ok
<ogra> lets see if ubuntu6 gets through
<ogra> i'll catherd it
<asac> so we need to work on gtk and then wrap up the ftbfs list from there
<asac> ogra: you said indicators are really failing to build?
<ogra> NCommander, dyfet please take a look at gnome-keyring and the two indicators
<persia> gtk and kdebindings should handle most of it.
<ogra> asac, indicator-sound at least
<ogra> i think there was another one
 * ogra looks
<asac> checking for SOUNDSERVICE... configure: error: Package requirements (dbusmenu-glib >= 0.1.1 indicator >= 0.3.0 libpulse-mainloop-glib >= 0.9.19
<asac> feels like something out of date
<dyfet> NCommander: ok
<ogra> ah, only -sound now
<persia> That's probably related to the recent pulse update.
<persia> (press the shiny button)
<ogra> i gave it back already once
<asac> ok I look into gtk and indicator build failures with dyfet and maybe NCommander
<asac> lets move on
<asac> *  Team to add individual summaries to standing items before meetings.
<ogra> i'll care for gtk
<asac> reminder: please do that ;)
 * NCommander did :-)
<StevenK> Hint: it's no longer before the meeting
<ogra> next time, sorry ... /me missed
<asac> everyone  missed.
<asac> so whip cracking: that would be really cool to have ;)
<asac> you can also include that in the AR mail if you send one
<asac> befor the meeting
<asac> NCommander: yes. you are great!!
<ogra> good idea
<asac> [TOPIC] Standing items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing items
<ogra> bah, lots of red
<asac> lets take a last look at alpha-3 thing
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
<asac> so last week before release meeting i bumped a bunch o items to beta-1
<asac> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<asac> i made have made a mistake in syntax here and there
<asac> please ensure that all of the work items for alpha-3 are moved to ubuntu-10.04-beta-1
<asac> [ACTION] everyone to move work items not finished for alpha-3 to ubnutu-10.04-beta-1
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone to move work items not finished for alpha-3 to ubnutu-10.04-beta-1
<asac> the main two specs for beta-1 are webservice email/office.
 * ogra notes that apw just did that on the powermanagement one 
 * ogra hugs apw 
<asac> those will need to be finished by end of this week/early next week ... otherwise release team will kick me ;)
<ogra> what about the browser ?
<ogra> still has many open items
<asac> i have to check if they dropped the final comment
<asac> security team that is
<ogra> was there a decision now ?
<asac> as it stands now we consider chromium not supportable
<ogra> ok
<asac> we will try to support it in universe and learn from it
<asac> if all goes well, we can go for it next cycle
<persia> asac: You're keeping the MIR bug up to date about that?
<ogra> ++
 * persia knows that several external groups are subscribed
<asac> persia: that was the idea
<persia> Cool!
<asac> persia: i asked kees to give a final statement from security team - which was supposed to happen on friday
<asac> i have to check if that happened
 * persia checks the bug
<asac> so yeah ... all the browser items will get done once that decision is there
<persia> ( bug #522645 for those who wish to follow along )
<asac> everything left there in my book was blocked by decision
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 522645 in chromium-browser "[MIR] chromium-browser" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/522645
<asac> ok anything else on work itesm? anyone feels like they are out of work?
<ogra> once rootstock is done i'll have some spare cycles
<ogra> i should be doen fully by end of the week with the GUI
<asac> good. with some luck those will be directly consumed by a new project ;)
<ogra> so feel free to put something up for me
<dholbach> if anybody feels like they are out of work, I'd like to remind everybody of: http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ - it really needs some hands on deck no
<dholbach> (and it lists unr packages too)
 * ogra tickles dholbach 
 * dholbach hugs ogra
<StevenK> It isn't UNR
<asac> dholbach: can you ensure that sponsored uploads without bugs also get in the company sponsoring report ;)?
<asac> that reminds me ... dholbach was looking for open week contributions
<dholbach> asac: sponsored uploads should get there
<asac> cool
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training
<asac> maybe we can run a session on how to develop for arm using qemu static etc.?
<dholbach> StevenK: sorry, I meant the 'unr' packageset
<asac> dholbach: would that help?
<dholbach> StevenK: which overlaps with other sets
<dholbach> asac: that'd be cool
<dholbach> asac: and I'll talk to bdrung too
<asac> [ACTION] asac to talk to team about training session
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to talk to team about training session
<asac> ok moving on ;) ...
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody! and I hope there's many good fixes for *mobile* in the sponsoring queue
<asac> [TOPIC] Standing Items - Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items - Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<cooloney> for imx51 kernel,
<cooloney> we updated to latest fsl bsp release
<ogra> works fine :)
<cooloney> after fixing a compiling error (i sent that patch to fsl)
<ogra> though i'D still like to see bug 457878 fixed before release
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457878 in linux-fsl-imx51 "imx51 on board ethernet plug/unplug events not detected" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457878
<cooloney> it was uploaded alreayd
<ogra> cooloney, a fix for that bug ?
<plars> cooloney: did it make it in time for the A3 image?
<cooloney> and apw also applied 2 VFP sig patches
<ogra> then it didnt work ... at least not in my tests
<ogra> i still dont see any plug/unplug events for the NIC
<cooloney> ogra and plars, oh, it needs some work for a3
<cooloney> i don't think we can make it
<asac> cooloney: dodes that fix bug 507503 ?
<ogra> well, i'm not concerned about A3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 507503 in linux-fsl-imx51 "VFP/NEON state is not preserved around signal handlers, causing state corruption between user processes" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/507503
<plars> we will retest in the following daily images then
<ogra> but would like it for final
<cooloney> this bug is because fsl fec driver does not support link status change
<ogra> right
<cooloney> yeah, that VFP signal bug should be fixed in latest uploads
<asac> cooloney: so VFP is in a3 ... bug 457878 is waiting for upstream fix?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457878 in linux-fsl-imx51 "imx51 on board ethernet plug/unplug events not detected" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457878
<ogra> cooloney, did that also go into the SRU for karmic ?
<cooloney> ogra: actually, i have not been thinking about karmic for a long time, heh
<ogra> well, there was an SRU last week
<ogra> for the NEON stuff
<cooloney> ogra: that is another bug
<persia> Well, except bug #507416 only contains half the fix for NEON, so it's not enough.
<cooloney> bug 507416
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 507416 in linux-fsl-imx51 "CONFIG_NEON=y causes platform lockups with certain application/platform combinations" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/507416
<ogra> right, but wouldnt it affect karmic as well if NEON is used ?
<persia> Since we have to get something else into -proposed anyway, we may as well see if 457878 can be included then.
<cooloney> persia: i just talked with dmart
<persia> cooloney: And?
<asac> cooloney: according to bug 507503 ... the VFP thing isnt fixed in current archive version ... what was uploaded by apw ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 507503 in linux-fsl-imx51 "VFP/NEON state is not preserved around signal handlers, causing state corruption between user processes" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/507503
<cooloney> for the 2nd patch, we found our workaround method does not work on imx51 A8 based soc
<ogra> asac, we just got as test request from him
<cooloney> because we can not disable NEON hardware in kernel
<cooloney> by setting ASEDIS bit
<cooloney> ASEDIS is only available in A9 processor
<dmart> But since karmic didn't have that anyway, we're not making it worse.
 * JamieBennett appears with new tires :)
<persia> OK.  So 507416 doesn't fix the issue, but there's no regression potential?
<dmart> There's no regression.
<dmart> this is a preexisting issue
<cooloney> right,
<cooloney> so i think currently we can't do anymore to workaround this issue on old silicon
<persia> OK.  Someone (who understands better than I) needs to update the bug with a comment explaining that it's unfixable with the current approach, but that the patch doesn't cause regressions, otherwise it will block the rest of the SRU kernel.
<asac> cooloney: so you are saying tha the VFP part of 507503 is fixed , but NEON is not? maybe we should split this bug up so we can close the first half?
<asac> (talking about lucid here)
<cooloney> persia: no problem, i will do that.
<cooloney> asac: yeah, patches are applied and kernel was uploaded
<dmart> asac: 507503 is not neon-specific, it's just an issue common to NEON and VFP
<asac> cooloney: why wasnt the bug closed in the upload then?
<cooloney> asac: that is because the 2 patches is from upstream
<asac> cooloney: ok, so lets close the bug?
<cooloney> we applied them and don't want to change their description by adding our syntax such as BugLink
<asac> kk
<cooloney> so if there is no such BugLink, it will not be closed automatically
<cooloney> i will close it manually.
<asac> thanks
<asac> ok ericm isnt here
<asac> so we skip dove for now (maybe he will appear later)
<cooloney> no, he is on a business trip
<asac> ah right.
<asac> [TOPIC] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<cooloney> but if you guys have something, can tell me
<asac> cooloney: thx
<cooloney> i will talk with him, since we are in the same TZ
<asac> so think on the application front we are fine MINUS the webservices specs
<JamieBennett> 2D launcher fun
<asac> netbook-launcher even has 2d fallback
<asac> ah right ... go ahead JamieBennett
<JamieBennett> 2D launcher respawn problem is there
<asac> right
<asac> thats bug #525854
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 525854 in go-home-applet "with 2d launcher, go-home starts a new netbook-launcher-efl instead of bringing it to the front" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/525854
<JamieBennett> web office services have initial code available
<asac> ak ... will review it today
<JamieBennett> needs a little more work and integration
<JamieBennett> otherwise looking semi-ok package wise
<JamieBennett> getting quite a few 2D launcher bugs though
<asac> JamieBennett: oh, you already have packaging even?
<JamieBennett> not for web office meant image packages in general
<asac> right
<asac> ok
<JamieBennett> I'll package web office on Friday
<asac> JamieBennett: so what are the most pressing bugs for launcher (besides the respawn issue)
<ogra> yeah 2D launcher will need a lot of work
<ogra> bugs are piling up
<asac> i assume the scroll bar thing is one ... whats the bug id?
<ogra> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netbook-launcher-efl
<ogra> 15 open bugs now
<JamieBennett> I've seen log out bugs, the respawn, mounting issues (although there was a fix available for this)
<ogra> over the last week we got 10 new ones
<asac> we have 15 bugs there ;) ... piling up is different term ;)
<JamieBennett> yeah
<asac> ok
<JamieBennett> maybe we need to review them one by one
<JamieBennett> and decide what are blockers
<asac> [ACTION] asac and JamieBennett to triage netbook-launcher-efl bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac and JamieBennett to triage netbook-launcher-efl bugs
<asac> and forward accordingly
<JamieBennett> indeed or help mterry out
<asac> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netbook-launcher-efl
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netbook-launcher-efl
<asac> ok ... anything else on app?
<JamieBennett> no, move on
<asac> i think i missed the previous one ...
<asac> [TOPIC] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
<plars> A3 alpha testing should start real soon
<plars> there's a desktop image listed out there right now, please ignore
<ogra> asac, skipping FTBFS ?
<asac> ogra: i moved backwards
<plars> netbook images should be available soon (?) anyone looking at the libgtk2.0 issue?
<ogra> ah
<StevenK> Which will no longer work, since I just purged it off cdimage
<GrueMaster> Couple of issues with the installer last week.  Hopefully they are fixed with the new images.  Fix was uploaded last night but I couldn't download all the packages to test due to availability.
<asac> plars: do you have a link to the right qa tracker?
<ogra> plars, no issue just catherding the build, its on my list
<plars> asac: it should still be under the armel section on iso tracker
<plars> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<plars> specifically: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuarm/all
<NCommander> (indiciator-sound is available for ARM now)
<asac> GrueMaster: ok. maybe add a list of not yet fixed installer bugs to the QA status after the meeting
<asac> GrueMaster: or after testing ;)
<asac> NCommander: thanks!
<GrueMaster> Yes, after testing.
<asac> was there progress on all-pairs testing?
<ogra> NCommander, cool, leaves only keyring ...
<GrueMaster> Read my status.
<NCommander> ogra: looking at keyring now
<GrueMaster> Or AR
<asac> GrueMaster: we are here to report that ;)
<asac> unless its added to the QA status
<GrueMaster> Ok.  No progress due to ubiquity issues.
<asac> Bug 524169
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 524169 in ubiquity "Ubiquity installer partitioner crashed, main installer enters endless loop" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/524169
<asac> GrueMaster: that bug wsa discovered by all-pairs?
<asac> e.g. it doesnt show up in our normal image testing?
<GrueMaster> That bug was discovered before getting to the all-pairs selections.
<asac> ok
<GrueMaster> I.e. That bug shows up in EVERY install test.
<asac> anything else on QA?
<asac> ok lets move on ...
<asac> thanks GrueMaster, plars
<GrueMaster> X0 kernel fixed several bugs.  I retested several bugs filed prior to Sprint and marked them closed.
<asac> great. thanks a lot
<asac> i see that in your AR now
<asac> [TOPIC] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<NCommander> indicator-sound fixed, looking at gnome-keyring
<asac> NCommander: added it to the wiki
<asac> and we already discussed a bit on gtk etc. above
<asac> anything else?
<NCommander> w.r.t. to openoffice.org, I'm looking at bisecting binutils
<asac> NCommander: did you create a wiki page for ooo?
<NCommander> asac: no
<asac> we should really document all the things we tried
<NCommander> asac: that's what the bug is for
<asac> [ACTION] NCommander to create wiki page to track actions taken to evaluate ooo/uno issues
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to create wiki page to track actions taken to evaluate ooo/uno issues
<ogra> the bug didnt have updates either :)
<asac> NCommander: we want more than the bug imo ... unless you want to post all the steps done there even if they have no positive outcome
 * NCommander needs more external HDDs :-/
<NCommander> asac: that's the point of Launchpad; and having a bug. Take a look what I already posted
<asac> ok
<NCommander> Anyway, bisecting the toolchain has proven difficult on lucid due to thumb2 support lacking in binutils 2.19
<NCommander> So I'm going to work against karmic on this
<ogra> one comment
<ogra> which was declined by doko
<NCommander> ogra: you should also check the OOo bugtracker. I'll make sure to cross-post better
<ogra> right, on the bug itself there isnt much ...
<ogra> so the wikipage really makes sense
<asac> NCommander: ok. so you are trying to bisect binutils now ... any other lead?
<asac> NCommander: please keep everything in th elaunchpad bug
<asac> NCommander: in the end we need to prove that we tried everything. i want all the bits together in one place
<NCommander> asac: well, I determined that we're dealing with some sorta stack corruption
<asac> whats the bug id? (would like to have it as link)
<ogra> Bug 417009
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 417009 in openoffice.org "all openoffice apps die in 'com::sun::star::ucb::InteractiveAugmentedIOException' on armel in karmic" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/417009
<NCommander> You can call into uno all you want, the abort comes when a process quits or something pops far enough in the stack to hit the corruption
<asac> [TOPIC] openoffce uno issues
<MootBot> New Topic:  openoffce uno issues
<asac> https://launchpad.net/bugs/417009
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 417009 in openoffice.org "all openoffice apps die in 'com::sun::star::ucb::InteractiveAugmentedIOException' on armel in karmic" [High,Confirmed]
<asac> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/417009
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/417009
<asac> ok ...anything else on ftbfs? (i think everything else needs to be discussed offline on ooo)
<asac> [TOPIC] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<ogra> image from 22th looked ok ...
<ogra> todays failed because of gtk
<persia> For *all* the imags tha tbuilt.
<persia> But why don't we have ubuntu-* or xubntu-* images for dove?
<asac> wasnt xubuntu disabled?
<ogra> yeah
<persia> I had thought so, but it seems to have come back.
<asac> also i thought we wanted to stop producing ubuntu-
<GrueMaster> Image from the 22nd had the installer bug.  Bug 524169
<ogra> we'Re really short on livefs builder time
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 524169 in ubiquity "Ubiquity installer partitioner crashed, main installer enters endless loop" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/524169
<dmart> 20100222 has some issues (installer doesn't work and rsyslogd hogs the CPU) but I don't think those are armel-specific.
<ogra> dmart, the latter is
<asac> rsyslogd?
<ogra> and the last kernel upload has a fix for rsyslogd
<persia> Well, it's kernel-specific to the armel kernel.
<ogra> yeah
<asac> really? i was told it was not arm specific ... rather old kernel
<persia> But not otherwise arch-specific.
<ogra> asac, right, imx51 is .31
<dmart> ok; non-armel people were reporting it, but maybe on old kernels
<asac> anyone has the bug number for rsyslogd?
<ogra> it needed a feature backported
<ogra> bug 523610
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 523610 in rsyslog "rsyslogd spins CPU on older kernels" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/523610
<asac> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/523610
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/523610
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 523610 in rsyslog "rsyslogd spins CPU on older kernels" [High,Triaged]
<ogra> apw is the hero that fixed it on the go :)
<persia> dmart: Yes.  There's a few folk running .31 kernels (especially realtime users)
<ogra> persia, which isnt supported anyway by words of Keybuk
<asac> so anyone takes action to investigate why xubuntu etc. are built again?
<ogra> StevenK, ^^^ ?
<persia> ogra: I've been told the opposite by rtg.  I suspect we need to bring them together.
<asac> [ACTION] StevenK and persia to ensure that xubuntu- ubuntu- images are not produced for armel anymore
<MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK and persia to ensure that xubuntu- ubuntu- images are not produced for armel anymore
<StevenK> Don't bother, I just fixed it
<ogra> asac, -desktop was completely ripped out right before the meeting
<StevenK> Like, ten minutes ago
<ogra> StevenK, xubuntu too ?
<persia> asac: Can we add kubuntu-desktop to that list, and only do *-netbook and server images?
<StevenK> ogra: I didn't bin the images, but I can
<ogra> yeah, they will be hevily outdated
<ogra> persia, ++
<asac> [ACTION] StevenK and persia to also get rid of kubuntu-desktop aka everything != server | netbook
<MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK and persia to also get rid of kubuntu-desktop aka everything != server | netbook
<asac> anything else on image?
<ogra> not from me
<asac> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<asac> anyone?
<ogra> please test the GUI after my next rootstock upload  :)
<asac> [ACTION] everyone to try rootstock GUI once its in the archive
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone to try rootstock GUI once its in the archive
<ogra> it is in the archive :)
<asac> latest
<GrueMaster> ogra: I have it on my todo for after Aplha 3.
<ogra> try the 0.2.0 release :)
<asac> good. anything else?
<ogra> right, that upload wont happen during freeze anyway
<asac> ogra: rootstock is in main?
<asac> on CD?
<ogra> nope
<asac> just upload
<ogra> and i dont want it in main yet :)
<asac> its not covered by freeze then
<ogra> asac, indeed, but i'm busy with A3 stuff anyway
<asac> thought its ready?
<asac> anyway. do it when you have time ;)
<asac> anything else for AOB?
<asac> 3
<asac> 2
<asac> 1
<asac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:10.
<asac> thanks all
<asac> Logs available at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/
<kees> \o
<cjwatson> hi
<cjwatson> sabdfl sent apologies via randa
<cjwatson> mdz sent notification of attention being partially elsewhere
<cjwatson> and Keybuk hasn't been seen around on IRC for a while
<pitti> o/
<pitti> hm, 3 is not quorum yet, is it?
<cjwatson> I think the TB has traditionally considered 50% as quorum
<cjwatson> with any luck mdz will be available for votes
<mdz> cjwatson, maybe
<mdz> IMO 3 is a quorum though
<kees> we'd never have meetings if we didn't consider 50% as quorum.  :P
<cjwatson> Keybuk isn't around, and I don't think I can effectively chair - too much of my head is occupied trying to work out this crazy memory corruption in d-i
<kees> cjwatson: I can chair; I just can't find the Feb 9th meeting notes ... looking still
<cjwatson> thanks
<pitti> hm, I'm fairly sure I put them in, hang on
<kees> pitti: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2010-February/000673.html
<cjwatson> I am getting further and further down rabbit-holes here - current one is that newt doesn't seem to build for me
<kees> pitti: I didn't see them in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/February2010 though
<kees> anyway,
<kees> #startmeeting
<pitti> kees: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard/TeamReports/Current
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:04. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> the agenda didn't seem to get flushed from last time
<cjwatson> moment while I edit it?
<kees> pitti: "current" should be a link to the per-month report
<cjwatson> err, highvoltage has it open
<highvoltage> cjwatson: closing...
<highvoltage> cjwatson: ok done
<cjwatson> the first two items under archivereorg were done, anyway
<kees> pitti: i.e. echnicalBoard/TeamReports/10/February
<cjwatson> thanks
<kees> +T
<kees> cjwatson: let me know when you're done with it
<cjwatson> ok, done with the agenda now
<kees> heh ok
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard/TeamReports/Current has been busted
<cjwatson> it used to be a redirect
<mdz> cjwatson, kees, pitti, please mention me if you need my input on something, otherwise my attention will be on the phone
<pitti> mdz: unterstood, thanks
<cjwatson> cf. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard/TeamReports/Current?action=diff&rev2=11&rev1=8
<cjwatson> I will go and fix it up
<kees> [TOPIC] Review actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review actions from last meeting
<kees> * kees to follow up with Debian TC on units policy
<kees> I haven't heard anything new from bdale
<kees> * cjwatson to follow up with mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added
<cjwatson> done ages ago
<kees> * ScottK to update Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy based on Kubuntu upstream feedback
<kees> looks like this happened?
<kees> http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft
<Riddell> kees: still needs approval upstream
<kees> Riddell: ah, okay.
<kees> * sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role
<cjwatson> I've fixed the team reports stuff
<kees> cjwatson: cool, thanks
<kees> I don't know what happens at CC, so I don't know if the CC delegate thing has happened yet
<kees> were there other actions?  that's all I see from the last report
<pitti> AFAIK these were the pending ones
<kees> okay, cool
<kees> [TOPIC] Have delegated teams become responsible for security of their packagesets
<MootBot> New Topic:  Have delegated teams become responsible for security of their packagesets
<kees> so, this came up while trying to figure out how motu-swat (the MOTU security team) fits into archive-reorg
<cjwatson> are you including, say, ubuntu-core-dev? :-)
<kees> cjwatson: possibly, yes.
<cjwatson> well, I was just wondering what was left for the security team to do then ;-)
<kees> they idea here is that teams should be responsible for security issues in their packagesets.
<kees> well, I was thinking that the Ubuntu security team still tracks CVEs globally, but would benefit from fixing help.
<cjwatson> it makes sense for teams to be paying attention to such things in a more organised fashion than right now; I'm not sure "responsible" is the right word, since I think the security team still has to be ultimate buck-stops-here
<kees> yes, agreed; that language should change.
<mdz> kees: I reordered the agenda to put the new topics ahead of the old; hope that's OK
<pitti> kees: I was going to say that I don't think it's very efficient to split tracking into multiple teams
<kees> I think the idea was to try to spur more involvement.
<kees> mdz: saw that, it's fine.
<pitti> because then the CVE triage would be done five times instead of once?
<cjwatson> and I like the idea of having somebody from each team actively engaged with the security team, provided that the security team assists them with tools
 * kees has chosen poorly wrt language here.
<pitti> kees: so you propose central tracking/distributed fixing? or distributed tracking as well?
<kees> I would like to see delegated teams being _aware_ of CVEs in their packagesets.
<cjwatson> perhaps it would make sense for the security team to explicitly put things onto delegated teams' work lists, after triage?
<pitti> kees: aware == tracking, though?
<kees> pitti: yes, central tracking/distributed fixing.  especially true for non-seeded packages.
<pitti> it's a huge difference between "dear desktop team can you please upload a fix for CVE-1234" or "please go find all that we need to fix"
<kees> pitti: I need to find language for "is aware of the CVE and thinking about how to fix it once the CVE has been identified by the security team, or the team becomes aware of a security issue and communicates it to the security team"
<pitti> and my gut feeling is that centralized tracking is more efficient
<cjwatson> so, what specifically needs to change?  somebody in each team (default: team lead) should take responsibility for liaising with the security team, and is expected to have mail filters such that they see CVEs as a priority, something like that?
<pitti> kees: ok, understood you
<kees> I do not want the teams CVE-hunting; there is a good centralized process for that.  at the same time, I don't want them to ignore new security issies if they just happen to not yet have a CVE.
<kees> cjwatson: I'm looking to define what needs to be changed so that there is more team involvement, yes.
<cjwatson> presumably responsible people are doing much of this already, with the exception of actively turning up to security team meetings
<cjwatson> are there groups of people who are being less responsible whom you're trying to address with this?
<kees> cjwatson: perferrably, they would watch the exported package CVE lists and take action when CVEs appear.  e.g. http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/linux.html
<kees> no, it's to better define how security is handled once the main/universe distinction fades.  from there, it seems like the ubuntu-security-sponsors (or some other team like motu-swat) would become responsible for unseeded packages
<kees> that said, there isn't a lot of interest in backporting fixes beyond the latest stable by devel teams, which I understand.
<kees> but that's where the U.S.T. does more of its work too
<cjwatson> so you'd be most interested in teams basically looking down the right-hand column of the CVE lists?
<cjwatson> i.e. lucid
<kees> well, I'd prefer they look at the entire table.  right now, most devel teams are only interested in the right-hand column; I'd like to fix that.
<pitti> that seems to tie in with the question how long (and in which releases) a particular package gets security updates in the first place; this varies for each delegated archive area
<kees> right
<pitti> in main/universe this is very clear
<pitti> in the new world, we could say that the Canonical security team only covers core ("foundations")/desktop/kubuntu
<pitti> ../server
<pitti> together with appropriate EOL dates
<cjwatson> right, products we ship as a company.
<pitti> this would keep the intention that what we call "universe" today still doesn't get under the umbrella of 18 month support
<cjwatson> so I think this is good as a general idea, but it could use work on the presentation, and probably refinement with individual teams
<cjwatson> kees: have you spoken to any of the delegated teams in question as yet, aside from motu-swat?
<kees> anyway, I'm not sure the best language for making a recommendation, but wanted to bring up the idea.
<pitti> I certainly would like to avoid getting into a situation where we (as in "all Ubuntu developers") have to support the entire archive for 18/36/60 months
<kees> cjwatson: I have not, no.  the idea formed yesterday with persia at the UST meeting
<kees> cjwatson: what do you recommend as the best forum for discussing this further?
<cjwatson> not sure.  either speaking with teams one at a time, or ubuntu-devel, I suppose
<cjwatson> it might be a good idea to talk individually with some of the biggest teams (e.g. Kubuntu) first?
<cjwatson> and see what they make of it in practice
<kees> did the list of delegated teams end up in the wiki at some point?  /me has a memory of this
<pitti> kees: it's on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard
<pitti> #Delegation
<pitti> plus MOTU
<kees> ah-ha, thanks.  okay, I've burned plenty of time, I'll email teams and ubuntu-devel.
<kees> [topic] Package set for CLI packages (Iain Lane)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Package set for CLI packages (Iain Lane)
<kees> Laney: you're up
<cjwatson> just a nitpick, perhaps we can call this CLI/Mono or something?  I keep looking at it and thinking "command-line interface"
 * kees too.
<Laney> Hiya
<kees> I'm generally in favor of a dedicated CLI/Mono team
<Laney> I don't know if the process is at the stage where we can have teams like this
<Laney> but I thought I'd put it out there
<Laney> CLI/Mono is alright with me if it makes things clear (we could conceivably get other runtimes in the future though)
<cjwatson> we'll be inventing process a bit on the fly since this would be the first team of this category on this scale, but that's OK, we always meant to do it anyway
<Laney> sure
<cjwatson> one or two of the individual packages listed seemed a bit odd; isn't antlr a Java thing? and launchpad-integration is pretty core, even if it does have a -cli bit
<Laney> Yeah. It's just a list of rdeps which I pruned a bit (removing OOo and some others). We can take out various ones which provide just b indings
<kees> gmime* is probably another one
<cjwatson> I think I'd like to remove the ones that have a single CLI binary package among lots of other bits; but I'm comfortable with the general idea
<Laney> we've previously had to touch gmime in the past, but yeah. gmime*, indicator-application, lp-i, antlr
<Laney> those are the ones I see immediately that might be questionable
<pitti> cjwatson: just to ensure, packages can be in arbitrarily many package sets, right?
<cjwatson> yes
<Laney> Will the set of uploaders be the union of the uploaders to the sets?
<cjwatson> I'm also comfortable with all of the individuals listed
<cjwatson> Laney: yes
<Laney> Good, that's what I thought
<pitti> like, tomboy could be in both desktop and cli/mono
<cjwatson> (modulo details about "restricted sets", of which there are currently none unless I miss my guess)
<Laney> I don't know if anyone is uncomfortable about mono, f-spot and the like though
<Laney> hopefully not...
<cjwatson> I don't know who else would maintain mono in practice if it weren't the set of people I see listed here
<pitti> cjwatson: reason I ask is that it becomes a bit confusing when we need to define the support status of that set (since there's both unsupported and desktop-supported bits in there
<Laney> yes, and that is how it has been done in practice, albeit with core-devs gatekeeping
<cjwatson> pitti: we're allowed to have package sets that are just for upload purposes, and don't have a homogeneous support status
<pitti> great
<Laney> I don't see it changing the support status indeed
<kees> sounds like next steps are: prune the package list more, then vote on the delegation? so perhaps iterate via email?
<cjwatson> ok, subject to a revised package list from Laney, there seems no substantial disagreement
<cjwatson> shall we just vote pending that?
<Laney> membership procedure?
<Laney> Is there a policy for this already?
<cjwatson> your comment about delegating to the DMB seemed reasonable
<Laney> I guess it would just extend the PPU policy
<cjwatson> the DMB can handle it like other applications (motu, core-dev)
<Laney> cool
<cjwatson> with appropriate revision of expectations
<Laney> and what about adding packages in the future. Can this be done informally?
<cjwatson> question: who should handle extensions of the package set (as opposed to the uploader set)?
<Laney> snap
<cjwatson> snap
<persia> TB
<cjwatson> there is no particular precedent for this
<persia> Err, TB+~ubuntu-archive
<cjwatson> well
<cjwatson> for the kernel, and I think for printing, we named the category of packages quite explicitly, and so it's straightforward for an archive admin to add packages based on that understanding
<pitti> conceptually it seems similar to adding people as PPUs
<cjwatson> for instance it's entirely clear that linux-backport-modules-2.6.32 should have been added to the kernel package set to go alongside linux-backports-modules-2.6.31, and I did that without seeking confirmation
<kees> two votes now, then?  "creation of CLI/Mono team with [members], pending TB agreement on delegated package list" and "CLI/Mono team membership is delegated to DMB" ?
<cjwatson> I'm not sure that we can do that quite so clearly here, and thus having TB confirmation seems reasonable for now; we could do it by mail rather than in meetings though
<Laney> there is, for example, an upload of Docky which will happen soon (was rejected yesterday). This is clearly something for the set to have.
<cjwatson> any yea/nay on my made-up-on-the-spot process summary?
<cjwatson> we could make it DMB confirmation rather than TB confirmation if people prefer
<cjwatson> although that constitutes the DMB extending its own delegation, so maybe not
<pitti> I'd be fine with either of them
<kees> me too
<pitti> since DMB can already approve PPU
<Laney> maybe TB email confirmation?
<Laney> I don't have a real opinion
<cjwatson> let's go with TB e-mail confirmation for now, and we can revisit as necessary?
<pitti> but most additions should be quite obvious, so a simple confirmation ought to be enough
<cjwatson> kees: votes> sounds good
<pitti> cjwatson: sounds good
<kees> okay, three votes, adding "packageset extension of CLI/Mono team done via TB e-mail confirmation"
<kees> [vote] creation of CLI/Mono team with sebner directhex raof hyperair laney, pending TB agreement on delegated package list
<MootBot> Please vote on:  creation of CLI/Mono team with sebner directhex raof hyperair laney, pending TB agreement on delegated package list.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<kees> mdz: this is to vote on the membership listed in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-February/000094.html
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
 * hyperair wonders if i can vote
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<kees> hyperair: mootbot will count you, but it doesn't count in the TB vote-count.  :)
<hyperair> heheh okay =p
<kees> we can check in with mdz later
<kees> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<kees> [vote] CLI/Mono team membership is delegated to DMB
<MootBot> Please vote on:  CLI/Mono team membership is delegated to DMB.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> kees: given I'm not paying attention, I abstain
<kees> mdz: ok
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mdz> this one is a general governance question, so I'll vote
<mdz> and I'm +1
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<kees> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<kees> [vote] packageset extension of CLI/Mono team done via TB e-mail confirmation
<MootBot> Please vote on:  packageset extension of CLI/Mono team done via TB e-mail confirmation.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<kees> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<cjwatson> hooray for unanimity
<kees> wheee, cli/mono team!
<pitti> Laney: thanks for bringing this up
<directhex> well that was pretty painless. my thanks, ladies & gents
<Laney> that was smooth, thanks guys
<hyperair> \o/
<pitti> Laney: this seems to be an exemplary team wrt. Debian/Ubuntu cooperation :)
<directhex> especially to Laney for writing the proposal
<Laney> pitti: we do try hard to achieve this
 * hyperair agrees with directhex
<cjwatson> pitti: agreed, I've been very impressed indeed
<kees> ok, so, we'll continue the package list via email.  I'm going to run the agenda ahead, as we're going to run out of time.
<kees> [topic] Ubuntu IRC Council Access level in #ubuntu-devel (Jussi Schultink)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu IRC Council Access level in #ubuntu-devel (Jussi Schultink)
<jussi01> o/
<jussi01> SO, after the email, any questions?
<mdz> looks like folks are reading it :-)
<kees> this seems clear to me.  I don't think we need a vote, just someone with perms to make it happen.
<mdz> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-February/000095.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-February/000095.html
<cjwatson> I have no particular problem with this; IIRC last time there were some problems with the IRCC, but all that seems to have quietened down
<cjwatson> I can implement it if the TB is in agreement
<pitti> no objection here
<kees> [vote] implement IRC Council Access on IRC
<MootBot> Please vote on:  implement IRC Council Access on IRC.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pitti> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pitti> (admittedly I don't understand how the IRC administration works, abstaining)
<jussi01> Do we need something from mdz then?
 * kees hopes mdz agrees
<mdz> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pitti> but to me it didn't seem to be something that TB needs to vote on in the first place
<kees> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 2
<cjwatson> out of curiosity, how does the "UbuntuIrcCouncil" mask work?
<cjwatson> i.e. how does one see what Freenode considers that to mean?
<cjwatson> is it just a shared account or something?
<jussi01> cjwatson: its a registered nick that is identifyable to, and ubottu can identify to it to change things if a change is made on the LP team
<kees> iiuc, it's a nick, so anyone with access to it?
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> I've implemented the requested change now
<jussi01> thank you
<Pici> Only the IRCC has the password.
<kees> thanks!
<kees> [topic] Review UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
<cjwatson> I assume you change it when the IRCC membership changes
<Pici> cjwatson: Yes.
<jussi01> cjwatson: of course
<jussi01> :)
<smoser> I hope that everyone has had a chance to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
<kees> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
<smoser> it has been here once before, and I believe that all points brought up were addressed.
<smoser> (I had sent an email on Feb 11 to technical-board with info also)
<cjwatson> I have one query, which probably just reflects my ignorance: are people likely to have built their own AMIs based on those we ship (is that possible)?  in other words, would those people essentially be expected to refresh their AMIs once a month?
<smoser> it is possible and likely
<mdz> cjwatson, it is possible, but we are finding it more common/preferable that they are deriving "on the fly"
<smoser> cjwatson, for those people, the only time when they'd need to use a new image is when the updates were not possible via 'apt-get upgrade'
<mdz> i.e. the instance boots our vanilla image, and is customized at boot time using puppet, chef, or similar
<mdz> that way, it is easy to swap out the underlying base image for updates
<mdz> that seems to be the more popular approach in the community today
<cjwatson> ok, thanks for the clarification
<mdz> people will create their own AMIs as well, but I think they're more or less on their own at that point
<smoser> and, as mdz points out, if they're rebundling hopefully their rebundling process takes a AMI as input and works from that, so they could just drop in the new reference image.
<cjwatson> you seem to have covered all the bases I can think of
<cjwatson> how often do daily builds for lucid fail?
<mdz> it looks good to me
<cjwatson> IOW how much handholding does it tend to need?
<smoser> cjwatson, they're fairly good. i'd say over 90% is a conserviative success rate guess
<kees> this all reads well to me.  I like the query tree on uec-images.u.c.  a few questions: 1) will cloud-utils be backported to hardy?  (does it need to be?)  2) should there be a mailing list to send details of the updates to? (like the USN mailing list for security updates?)
<cjwatson> that's actually very good compared to e.g. CD image builds
<cjwatson> I guess you have a smaller software base going into them
<smoser> kees, i have no plans to backport the cloud-utils to hardy or karmic, but it is very light and could be easily done.
<smoser> the "updates notification" was a new feature for lucid.
 * kees nods
<smoser> cjwatson, yeah, the "desktop" build fails more often.
<smoser> kees, for number 2, once we get all this solidified and the QA team takes over, the intent is to announce on the Release blog, if that suitable
<smoser> and very easily we can send that same message to appropriate mailing lists.
<kees> sounds fine
<kees> should we vote on this, or was the intention to just have TB review it?
<smoser> mdz, ?^
<mdz> kees: we should vote on it
<mdz> smoser brought it here for approval
<kees> ok, the agenda just said "review", I wasn't sure.
<kees> [vote] approve the UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve the UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> cjwatson, ?
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<kees> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<kees> okay, we're out of time today.  chair for next meeting, is, I assume, Keybuk again?
<highvoltage> any chance we could get feedback from the edubuntu-dev application by e-mail?
<dholbach> and the sponsoring bits :)
<cjwatson> highvoltage: I'll try to do that
<cjwatson> (at least)
<highvoltage> cjwatson: thank you
<kees> okay, thanks everyone. sorry for not getting through everything; we can continue some of it in email.
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
<pitti> thanks everyone
<pace_t_zulu> man...
<pace_t_zulu> i missed that meeting
<bjf> Roll Call
 * ogasawara waves
 * smb waves
 * tgardner pops in
 * amitk stumbles in
 * cking waves too
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * jjohansen waves
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<bjf> NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> NOTE: JFo is not joining us today. However, I have his data for the topics he is responsible for.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Action Item: None
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Item: None
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics:
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics:
<bjf> Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs)
<bjf> Release Meeting Bugs (4 bugs, 5 blueprints)
<bjf> ===
<bjf> Alpha 3 Milestoned Bugs (24 bugs against all packages (down 1))
<bjf>  * 2 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<bjf>  * 3 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (no change)
<bjf>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug (no change)
<bjf>  * 1 linux-mvl-dove bugs (down 1)
<bjf> ===
<bjf> Release Targeted Bugs (137 bugs against all packages (up 5))
<bjf>  * 15 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<bjf>  * 3 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (down 1)
<bjf>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug (no change)
<bjf>  * 1 linux-mvl-dove bugs (down 1)
<bjf> ===
<bjf> Milestoned Features -
<bjf>  * 0 blueprints
<bjf> ===
<bjf> Bugs with Patches Attached:112 (not counting Fix Committed)(up 5)
<bjf> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on
<bjf> Breakdown by status:
<bjf> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<bjf> == Blueprints ==
<bjf> kernel-lucid-bug-handling:
<bjf>  * No update, all items are still in progress.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<bjf>  * No update, all items are still in progress.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<apw> drbd confirmed no longer in user with the server team and dropped from the kernel.  Awaiting testing on the Lenovo driver combination which should close the last item here.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<apw> It seems we require SECCOMP enabled for Lucid, this is there for the distro kernels but under investigation for ARM.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin / apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin / apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<apw> Upstream for DRM and upstream for the main drivers of interest, i915 and ATI, are all disavowing 2.6.32 indicating there is no hope of getting this working.  As we are already backporting Nouveau from 2.6.33 we are now examining the feasability of a wholesale DRM backport as a better starting point.  Testing ongoing, though all new issues are being shown up by this combination.
<apw> ..
<sconklin> sconklin ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<bjf> skipping for now
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> Finally got another push to LKML out, working through the feedback.
<apw> your update is now in the archive in lucid
<jjohansen> thanks
<amitk> so we basically run AA-crack-of-the-day in lucid?
<jjohansen> I should have another pull request this week
<apw> AA upstream version is what we have
 * amitk realises that sounded negative, it wasn't meant to be
<jjohansen> amitk: well mostly crack of the day, is cleanups and code transforms requested by upstream
<apw> so we are testing whatever jj is pushing
<amitk> cool
<amitk> ..
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<manjo> nothing more from last week
<manjo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<apw> We remain around the 1.6s to rootfs mark.  khubd fixes are now uploaded and looking good.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<bjf> nothing new from last week
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<amitk> no progress
<amitk> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> well I poked at running a pv-ops kernel again briefly, it looks promising but I need to make sure I run through all zones, and regions
<jjohansen> what do we want to do if the pv-ops kernel is working?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
<apw> Lucid is at stable v2.6.32.8, the khubd fixes have now hit the archive and boot times are looking better.  We have potential issues with the HDA beep being discordant and loud, but this seems to be codec specific and not the nightmare screech issue we have had before, investigation ongoing.  We also have graphics issues as discussed above, a decision will have to be taken in the next week as to direction.
<bjf> sorry, still with jjohansen
<apw> .... screech
<apw> jjohansen, i presume that is much closer to the normal kernel?
<jjohansen> it would be nice to dump the xen patchset but it is getting aweful late
<apw> so we could get rid of the -ec2 kerenls?
<jjohansen> possibly
<jjohansen> I still need to do a lot more testing to be sure
<apw> we might need to FF the change, but if it means we don't need more than a flavour then its worth it
<jjohansen> I redid pv-ops with some of the configs that we learned are problematic disabled
<jjohansen> well we would need a flavour but not a topic branch
<apw> right a flavour is much less maintenance overhead ... a _lot_
<jjohansen> right
<apw> so when can we get a definative answer as to whether its psosible
<apw> i recon we'd need to make the decision at least a week before b-1
<jjohansen> well I can make it high priority and know in a couple days
<jjohansen> will also want to discuss with the server team
<apw> next week sounds fine to me ... yeah lets get the people who care in a room and make them test it
<jjohansen> okay, will do there is a server team meeting tomorrow
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> apw, back to you and Lucid status
 * apw repeats for sanity
<apw> Lucid is at stable v2.6.32.8, the khubd fixes have now hit the archive and boot times are looking better.  We have potential issues with the HDA beep being discordant and loud, but this seems to be codec specific and not the nightmare screech issue we have had before, investigation ongoing.  We also have graphics issues as discussed above, a decision will have to be taken in the next week as to direction.
<apw> Progress has been pretty solid the last week, with us nearly hitting the trend-line for a day.  The new issues above have pushed us back a little.  I have been through the remaining Alpha-3 items and pushed any that are clearly not release critical out to ubuntu-10.04-beta-1, these include the apport changes etc which can easily be done after kerenel freeze.  If I have pushed your items out and they are kernel related we do need something soon; be
<apw> ta-1 is only 3 weeks out.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
<smb> Dapper:      2.6.15-55.82  (security)
<smb> Hardy:       2.6.24-27.65  (security)
<smb>              2.6.24-27.67  (proposed)[0]   0/ 3 verifications done (+0)
<smb> Intrepid:    2.6.27-17.45  (security)
<smb> Jaunty:      2.6.28-18.59  (security)
<smb> Karmic:      2.6.31-19.56  (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-20.57  (proposed)[15]  5/19 verifications done (+0)
<smb>  - LBM       2.6.31-20.22  (proposed)[15]  0/ 2 verifications done (+0)
<smb>  - mvl-dove  2.6.31-211.22 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-211.23 (waiting for acceptance)
<smb>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-108.21 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-108.22 (proposed)[6]   0/ 1 verifications done (+0)
<smb>  - ec2       2.6.31-304.10 (security)
<smb>              2.6.31-304.11 (proposed)[6]   0/ 1 verifications done (+0)
<smb> The mvl-dove upload is not processed, yet as there were questions about its
<smb> impact by pitti which have not been answered.
<smb> Working on getting a few more changes in Karmic proposed being verified.
<smb> Likewise fsl-imx51 and ec2 interested parties should report back on the
<smb> bugs in question.
<smb> ..
<apw> whats the outstanfing Q?
<apw> on mvl-dove?
<smb> apw, Why it is needed. What the impact is
<apw> that contained the VFP stuff yes?
<smb> Something about needing more memory
<smb> I asked Eric in email to comment on it
<apw> ok ... thanks ... will look at the thread     ..
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<bjf> Incoming Bugs
<bjf> 160 Lucid Bugs (up 30)
<bjf> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<bjf> ==== regression-potential (up 13) ====
<bjf>   * 51 lucid bugs
<bjf> ==== regression-update (no change) ====
<bjf>   * 9 karmic bugs
<bjf>   * 5 jaunty bugs
<bjf>   * 2 intrepid bugs
<bjf>   * 1 hardy bug
<bjf> ==== regression-release (up 1) ====
<bjf>   * 55 karmic bugs
<bjf>   * 23 jaunty bugs
<bjf>   * 11 intrepid bugs
<bjf>   * 4 hardy bugs
<bjf> ==== regression-proposed (no change) ====
<bjf>   * 1 karmic bug
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<bjf> Last week's BugDay was a success. Stats are available at:
<bjf> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/jfo/kernel-bugday/20100216.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/jfo/kernel-bugday/20100216.html
<bjf> The next Kernel BugDay is scheduled for next Tuesday the 2nd of March. The focus will be Bugs with patches attached.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
 * apw notes beta-1 is nearly here ...
<bjf> once...
<apw> those of you with investigate tasks will find they are moot pretty soon
<apw> ..
<bjf> twice...
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:24.
<cking> thanks bjf
<csurbhi> thanks bjf
<amitk> thanks bjf
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-24
<YoBoY> hi
<jiboumans> o/
<ivoks> o/
<highvoltage> o/
<kirkland> o/
<mathiaz>  /o
<soren> o/
<hggdh> o/
<smoser> |o
<soren> _o_
 * jjohansen o|
<ivoks> o?
<soren> _o|/_
<ttx> o/
 * soren is doing yoga
<ivoks> oÅ
<dholbach> soren: I didn't want to ask
<ttx> let's get started.
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> I'll chair this meeting, Jos lurks but can't chair.
<ttx> Recently updated: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ttx> ACTION: ttx to follow up on server-lucid-cluster-stack and server-lucid-asterisk-integration via email
<ttx> been there, done that.
<ivoks> :)
<ttx> i didn't get updated status from asterisk-integration though
<ttx> maybe we'll talk about it later during open discussion.
 * nijaba waves
<ttx> [TOPIC] Beta1 / beta2 targets feedback
<MootBot> New Topic:  Beta1 / beta2 targets feedback
<ttx> Jos asked the Canonical team to submit any ideas we might have overlooked for beta1/beta2 targets
<ttx> So far only smoser answered
<ttx> Please reply by the end of the day if yo uintend to.
<Daviey> \o
<kirkland> ttx: can you clarify?
<ttx> The beta1/beta2 plan should be finalized this week.
<ttx> kirkland: If you think there are things that should be done for beta1/beta2 that our planning did not already take into account, please send an email to jos/me
 * Daviey wonders why Jos only wants Canonical team input.
<jiboumans> Daviey: i don't :) I asked the canonical team last week already
<jiboumans> another call here for everyone's input
<ttx> jiboumans: thanks for the precision.
<Daviey> ta :)
<kirkland> thanks for the clarification
<ttx> [TOPIC] Alpha3 status review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha3 status review
<mathiaz> ttx: what's the list of specification you're working on for beta1?
<ttx> mathiaz: see milestones in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~jib/+specs?searchtext=server-lucid
<mathiaz> ttx: I've got some work items I'd like to do on some packages
<mathiaz> ttx: but they don't necessarly fit in a blueprint
<ttx> beta1 allocates 1/3 of work time to do test/bugfix on general packages
<ttx> beta2 allocates 2/3 of work time to that.
<ttx> mathiaz: so we planified that.
<mathiaz> ttx: how to record the fact that work needs to be done on such package?
<mathiaz> ttx: or is it just: go and test packages?
<ttx> mathiaz: at that point it's freeform.
<ttx> mathiaz: but I agree we could use some tracker...
<mathiaz> ttx: for now I've added WI to some of the blueprints
<mathiaz> ttx: (mainly things related to puppet and slapd)
<mathiaz> ttx: but it doesn't really fit in the scope of the blueprint
<ttx> I think they should be tracked separately
<ttx> mathiaz: we'll clarify that, might end up creating a blueprint for "stuff"
<mathiaz> ttx: ok
<ttx> that doesn't fit into papercuts or another one
<ttx> other questions ?
<mathiaz> ttx: the timeline for beta1 planning is end of week?>
<ttx> beta1 subcycle starts Friday :)
<ttx> so we should have a plan by that time.
<ttx> ok, moving on to...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Alpha3 status review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha3 status review
<ttx> No more alpha3 targeted bugs that I know of
<ttx> ISO testing is up
<ttx> Please test the latest candidate
<ttx> it's not expected to change anymore.
 * kirkland is on it!
<ttx> Alpha3 remaining work items
<ttx> kirkland: Perform UEC tests on A3 candidate
<kirkland> ttx: doing it as we speak
 * zul waves
<ttx> mathiaz: Test and debug installation from an iso / Follow with IS on mamoncillo state
<ttx> mathiaz: does that need to happen before A3 ?
 * nijaba ping le service mktg de canonical pour prÃ©parer de t-shirts ubuntu taile barbie :P
<mathiaz> ttx: nope
 * nijaba says osrry, wrong chan
<ttx> mathiaz: do you expect it to be completed by A3 ?
<mathiaz> ttx: I hope so - expect for mamoncillo
<mathiaz> ttx: that's out of my hands
<ttx> mathiaz:  	Move libpam-ccreds to main ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i think we can live without it?
<kirkland> mathiaz: we have enough machines to do each of the 3 topos, right?
<mathiaz> ttx: this is in the hand of the mir team now
<mathiaz> kirkland: correct
<ttx> mathiaz: ok
<kirkland> ttx: mamoncillo is not a blocker
<ttx> smoser: add run-instance-and-* commands -- I suggest we drop that ?
<smoser> yeah
<smoser> :-(
<ttx> soren: Triage and fix relevant bugs for VMBuilder in Lucid
<ttx> soren: still planning to complete as many as you can until tomorrow ?
<soren> All triaged.
<soren> Almost all fixed.
<ttx> soren: great!
<soren> ...and the day is still young :)
<soren> http://surl.dk/77e/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://surl.dk/77e/
<ttx> zul: Write MIR and update package for main requirement for ctdb
<ttx> I think that one will be dropped, not in shape for main at this point ?
<ivoks> not in shape?
<zul> no, talking to ctdb upstream as well
<ivoks> ah, and i was looking forward to that
<ttx> zul: daily-vcs: we'll talk about that together after meeting
<zul> ttx: cool
<ttx> any questions ?
<ttx> anything about alpha3 milestone subcycle you want to share ?
<ttx> ok, moving on...
<zul> i like turtles
<ttx> btw, smoser is the scribe, I forgot to mention
<smoser> whoops
<soren> zul: Yeah. Crunchy.
 * smoser starts scribing
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren, hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren, hggdh)
<ttx> soren, hggdh : o/
<hggdh> heh
 * soren looks around
<hggdh> I still have to find my bearings ;-)
<jiboumans> hggdh: welcome to the fold :)
<ttx> hggdh: welcome :)
<hggdh> thank you.
<ttx> hggdh: running already ?
<mathiaz> hggdh: welcome aboard!
<hggdh> A question -- the regression thingie -- what to do when a package fails?
<zul> yell
<ttx> hggdh: not sure I get the question... File a bug, fix it ?
<hggdh> (in this case, mysql, 2 -- or 3 -- different issues)
<ttx> ah
<ttx> automated build failures
<hggdh> yes, sorry
<ttx> hggdh: I think it's appropriate to mention the build failure and basic investigation results here
<hggdh> OK. There goes:
<ttx> so that someone can say "i'll look into that one"... hopefully.
<ttx> So you're talking about the mysql automated rebuild/testsuite run that currently fails.
<hggdh> mysql is failing on two different areas (1) ssl tests consistently fail, all of them; (2) one SQL test (or two) fail on different output
<soren> The SSL tests are due to the SSL certs shipped in the package having expired.
<mathiaz> hggdh: ssl test: check that the certificate is up-to-date
<zul> (1) it needs a patch from our bzr tree (2) havent looked at
<ttx> hggdh: is it the usua ltest  certificate expiration issue ?
<ttx> heh
<ttx> I'm late.
<soren> mdeslaur has a patch for that.
<zul> can anyone upload to that ppa?
<soren> I don't know what the other problem is. I haven't really investigated.
<hggdh> ttx no, timeouts. Sounds like there is no SSL to work on
<ttx> zul: looking into that as part of the mysql dailyvcs work ?
<mathiaz> hggdh: some of the mysql tests are time sensitive - so depending on the load of the ppa, the test suite may fail
<hggdh> hum. Might impact SSL due to processing reqs
<zul> ttx: kind of
<hggdh> but all of them?
<ttx> ok, we'll not debug that one now, please continue that discussion on #ubuntu-server
<soren> hggdh: The server might not start its SSL port if it knows that the cert is expired.
<ttx> anything else from QA, for QA ?
<ttx> hggdh will contact some of you for information, please help him get up to speed
<ttx> that includes UEC testing.
<ttx> For the record, hggdh is the successor of soren in the QA team, dedicated to server.
<mathiaz> hggdh: \o/!
<ttx> ok, let's move on to our other friends, the kernel team...
<ivoks> hggdh: hello there
<dholbach> Just a very quick note: I'd appreciate if you could help out with sponsoring a bit - I added an indication of packagesets to http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ so it will show you if something is server related, if you want to review anything else on the list, that'd great too! we need to get the list shorter again! THANKS!
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<ttx> dholbach: spammer !
<ttx> jjohansen: HI
<dholbach> ttx: I thought id fitted quite well into the pause, but thanks :)
<jjohansen> well, I am going to be taking another stab at a pv-ops based kernel for EC2
<ttx> we also have friends in the community team, as you can see.
<zul> jjohansen: good luck :)
<ttx> jjohansen: sounds like a noble and worthy goal.
<jjohansen> iff then we may want to end up switching kernels out from under you
<jjohansen> we should know by friday one way or the other
<ttx> jjohansen: ok, keep us posted.
<smoser> jjohansen, ooh
<smoser> i'm interested in pvops, hip hop horray
<jjohansen> yep will definitely keep you posted
<ttx> Anything else for our kernel friend ?
<smoser> one other thing in this arena, its eems we'll soon have a karmic kernel refresh available.
<zul> jjohansen: want me to bounce ideas off of you?
<smoser> as bug 428692 is moving to karmic-updates
<jjohansen> zul: sure that would be nice
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 428692 in linux-ec2 "ec2 kernel needs CONFIG_BLK_DEV_LOOP=y and other config changes" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/428692
<jjohansen> smoser: finalyy
<jjohansen> s/finalyy/finally/
<ttx> mvcing on to...
<jjohansen> I don't think there is anything else from kernel
<ivoks> ttx: mvc
<ttx> [TOPIC] Server Papercuts (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Papercuts (ttx)
<ttx> Nominations review: https://bugs.launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=New
<ttx> Only three bugs this week
<ttx> mostly those we didn't manage to decide on yet
<ivoks> gosh...
<ttx> bug 211915
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 211915 in amavisd-new "Insecure dependency when using sql for Log Reporting" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211915
<ttx> This one is purely doc, I'd +1 it
<ttx> but that hardly is a usability issue
<ttx> takes a special type of paper to be cut by it
<ttx> anyone else has an opinion on that one ?
<ivoks> hm...
<ttx> ok, let's keep it for one more week, then... on to bug 325109
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 325109 in bacula "bacula-director-pgsql fails postinst because of missing check for running psql daemon" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/325109
<ivoks> it would be great if amavis would read hostname from the system
<ttx> ivoks: you mention it's fixed in your PPA, is that true ?
<ivoks> ttx: we talked about this last week; i didn't have time to check it
<ivoks> ttx: i promise to do that by friday
<ttx> ok, just comment on the bug :)
<ttx> bug 508382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 508382 in bacula "bconsole does not connect to bacula-director" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/508382
<ivoks> same thing, friday
<ttx> ok, tx
<ttx> So feel free to assign yourself the ones you're inetersted in
<ttx> We'll start fixing those next week.
<ttx> (feel free to take a head start, like soren did)
<zul> yay soren
<ttx> Questions on papercuts before we move on ?
<ivoks> soren is an alien, anyway
<ttx> [TOPIC] Bugzapping during betas (kirkland)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugzapping during betas (kirkland)
<ttx> kirkland: howdy
<soren> bah
<kirkland> similar in principle to papercuts, bugzapping is an initiative to proactively go out and fix server bugs
<kirkland> the blueprint is here: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-bug-zapping
<kirkland> basically, we'll take 3 - 4 weeks of the remaining time left in Lucid
<kirkland> each of those weeks will be dedicated to a set of related packages
<kirkland> such as:
<kirkland>  * database (mysql, postgres)
<kirkland>  * LAMP-stack-stuff (apache2, php5)
<kirkland>  * virtualization (libvirt, qemu-kvm, virt-manager)
<kirkland>  * java
<ttx> kirkland: so that will run through the beta1 and beta2 subcycles, right
<kirkland> ttx: right
<kirkland> each day of the has a specific set of tasks assigned
<kirkland> Monday is *total* bug triage
<kirkland> which means we should enlist the help of triagers
<kirkland> tue - fri, we work on fixing bugs that are in the Triaged state
<kirkland> focusing on the High ones, or particularly easy ones
<kirkland> we commit to bzr branches
<kirkland> and one or more core devs/motu sponsor the package for upload
<kirkland> and then we enlist the help of testers
<ttx> kirkland: so we should have a more detailed plan by next week ?
<kirkland> we should plan on having a final "upload" by thursday
<kirkland> and spend friday regression testing
<kirkland> ttx: sure
<mathiaz> kirkland: is there a wiki page that outlines the whole process?
<kirkland> ttx: basically, i'll have the package sets/schedule set
<kirkland> ttx: the process is well documented already in the blueprint
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's all in https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-bug-zapping right now
<ttx> kirkland: send it for comments before the meeting, some might want to adjust times because they won't be present
<mathiaz> kirkland: to make sure that anyone jumping into the ship any day knows what is the current focus
<kirkland> ttx: mathiaz: ack
<kirkland> ttx: mathiaz: i'll add a wiki page, and post to ubuntu-devel@ and ubuntu-server@
<ttx> [ACTION] kirkland to publish tentative bugzapping roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to publish tentative bugzapping roadmap
<kirkland> ttx: the one week that is for certain is Mar 22 - 26 will be Eucalyptus/euca2ools
<ttx> [ACTION] ivoks to review the remaining bacula/amavisd papercuts for feasability
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to review the remaining bacula/amavisd papercuts for feasability
<kirkland> ttx: as mathiaz and I will be on site at Eucalyptus Systems, and this idea is based on something similar mathiaz and I did with nurmi for Eucalyptus during the Karmic cycle
<ttx> ok.
<ttx> Other questions for kirkland on the bugzapping effort ?
<randa> msg/ marianna hi
<jiboumans> fwiw, i've taken the liberty to update the spec with that date
<kirkland> ttx: for the record, we fixed some 75 bugs in about 4 days last time we did this!
<kirkland> jiboumans: thanks
<ttx> let's set new records.
<ttx> We should also get upstream help if we can.
<ttx> (for packages other than eucalyptus)
<kirkland> ack
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review  (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review  (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> I've updated some of the urls
<ttx> mathiaz: hey. haven't had time today to review the nominations, so you're on your own :)
<mathiaz> so there are more bugs to review
<mathiaz> dapper hasn't any bugs
<ttx> mathiaz: you have 8 minutes :)
<mathiaz> hardy has 5 nomination
<mathiaz> bug107224
<mathiaz> bug 107224
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 107224 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "mysql-server preinst script stops running mysql" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/107224
<mathiaz> bug 191884
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 191884 in libnss-ldap "wrong id behaviour on a system with LDAP" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191884
<mathiaz> bug 252245
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 252245 in samba "unable to connect to windows network pc's" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/252245
<mathiaz> bug 293000
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 293000 in debian "hardy: openssh-server oom_adj can lead to denial of service" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/293000
<mathiaz> bug 157215
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 157215 in ntp "[jaunty] Synchronizing with a time server does not work when time difference is greater than several hours" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/157215
<ttx> 252245: -1, not even "solved" in lucid
<mathiaz> well only bug 293000 is fixed released
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 293000 in debian "hardy: openssh-server oom_adj can lead to denial of service" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/293000
<ttx> mathiaz: shouldn't that be a prerequisite ?
<mathiaz> ttx: yes
<mathiaz> so I'll decline all other bugs
<ttx> even 293000 is not fixed in lucid
<mathiaz> well - it's fixed released in debian
<mathiaz> ok so anyone to comment on the hardy nominations?
<mathiaz> if not - I'll decline all of them
<ttx> mathiaz: +1 on 293000, it's probably fixreleased in lucid
<mathiaz> on the basis that bugs should be fixed released in lucid first
<ttx> mathiaz: ack
<mathiaz> I'll skip the other lists as we running out of time
<ttx> yes
<mathiaz> and there a bunch of bugs
<mathiaz> one last list to review:
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> the bugs that have been fixed last week
<ttx> everyone: please review the lists before the meeting starts, so that you can participate in that discussion
<mathiaz> anything worth?
<ttx> nothing stood it on my quickreview
<mathiaz> me neither
<ttx> stood out ?
<mathiaz> allright then
<ttx> ok, thx mathiaz !
<mathiaz> that's all for now
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<ttx> ivoks, jmdault: anything not completed on your specs by tomorrow needs to be adjusted: moved to FFe/beta1 or dropped
 * dholbach mentions http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ again :)
<jmdault> ttx: I updated the spec
<ttx> jmdault: oh! I missed that, thanks !
<ivoks> ttx: ok
<ttx> dholbach: are we particularly sucking at this game, or are you just after everyone ?
<dholbach> have a look at the list - it's HUGE
<jmdault> ttx: the feedback I received so far was "Forget about the extra features, stick to Debian upstream as close as possible"
<dholbach> and there's a lot of good fixes waiting in there
<jmdault> ttx, I'll work with Debian long term instead
<dholbach> ttx: so it's not YOU particularly :)
<ttx> dholbach: ah :)
<ttx> jmdault: I think it was a very short cycle to pull this off.
<Daviey> jmdault: integration can diverge, and that is something that can be more Ubuntu specific as i don't think Debian's audience will appreciate it. But generally, small delta :)
<ttx> ok, next meeting, same place, same time, next week.
<ivoks> +1
<ttx> anything else to add ?
<Daviey> not here
<ttx> ok, thanks everyone.
<jiboumans> not here either. thanks ttx for covering
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:02.
 * stgraber says Hi but has nothing to add :)
<ttx> stgraber: i'll be on you in a few, for contextualization spec update ;P
<stgraber> ttx: ok :)
<tremolux> hey everybody
<lool> Hey!
 * tremolux looks to check who's missing
<tremolux> lool: hey!
<mvo> hello
<tremolux> hi mvo!
<mvo> hey tremolux
<tremolux> looks like no doko, no barry
 * slangasek waves
<mvo> pycon?
<tremolux> mvo: yes, sounds right
<tremolux> ok, we'll start
<tremolux> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is tremolux.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<tremolux> agenda here:
<tremolux> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0224
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0224
<tremolux> so, first up, the ever popular
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<tremolux> I'll go first, then: lool, Keybuk, slangasek, cjwatson, ev, mvo, james_w
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<james_w> aha!
<tremolux> Spent beginning of this week working on bug fixes for Software Center.
<tremolux> Fixed alpha-3 targeted bugs LP: #496058 and LP: #523420.
<tremolux> These plus four other bug fixes released Tuesday with version 1.1.13.
<tremolux> Now I am back to finishing up the back/forward navigation feature.
<tremolux> (done)
<lool> Mostly more FTBFSes and qemu and/or ARM versatile work; some reviews and some ARM porting; now I need to document how this all fits together
<lool> (done)
<tremolux> Keybuk: Scott, you around?
<Keybuk> tremolux: yup, feeling better today thanks
<tremolux> Keybuk: ah good  :)
<Keybuk> was just arguing in another window and missed the start of the meeting
<tremolux> hehe
<Keybuk> Boot speed, boot speed, boot speed.
<Keybuk> Going to tackle Plymouth for the rest of this week.
<Keybuk> --
<tremolux> slangasek: got lightning?
<slangasek> alpha 3 all week
<slangasek> NBS is down a bit from where it was, as is component-mismatches
<slangasek> if you do an MIR for a package, don't forget to take care of its dependency tree :)
<slangasek> --
<tremolux> thanks Steve
<cjwatson> done: holiday; firefighting for alpha-3; more gfxboot-update integration
<cjwatson> blocked: design feedback for gfxboot-update: need icon representation of "press any key", and greeter styling
<cjwatson> todo: console-setup -> upstart and quite possibly some kernel fixes, to fix plymouth interaction problems; tail-end of fix-iscsi-root
<cjwatson> --
<cjwatson> oh and also done, most of the work required to migrate to parted 2.1, awaiting FFe
<ev> Seeing how solvable this install restricted extras as part of ubiquity is at this point in the release, writing some components of the new installer ui between activities to flesh out potential issues with the design, getting caught up on the pile of installer bugs, rewriting the installer's plugin orderer, catching up on email since Pycon.
<ev> --
<mvo> bugfixing for alpha-3, work on ratings&reviews django server (plus auth against ubuntu SSO), some apt updates, auto-upgrade test setup in DC
<mvo> (done)
<mvo> I may require a python-apt FFe
<mvo> (really done)
<james_w> fixing bugs, package importer work and allowing more people to fiddle with it.
<james_w> moving on to do some work that the LP need for building from branches.
<james_w> (done)
<tremolux> nice, thanks everybody
<slangasek> tremolux: wrt software-center 1.1.13, you're aware this hasn't built yet at all? (so the alpha-3 targeted bugs haven't actually been fixed for anyone)
<tremolux> slangasek: gah, I didn't know  :(
<slangasek> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/39612804/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-i386.software-center_1.1.13_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpadlibrarian.net/39612804/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-i386.software-center_1.1.13_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<tremolux> slangasek: shoot, thanks for the head's up
 * mvo will have a look at it, sorry
<slangasek> 'swhat I'm here for ;)
<cjwatson> missing build-dep on po4a
<tremolux> alrighty
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions from last meeting
<tremolux> I don't see anything, anyone?
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Outstanding feature freeze exceptions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding feature freeze exceptions
<tremolux> I know I have one, for back/forward navigation
<tremolux> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-lucid-software-center-ui-improvements
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-lucid-software-center-ui-improvements
<cjwatson> I filed one this week, bug 511075, and just answered slangasek's question on it; the reason this didn't happen earlier is mainly that it was blocked on the lvm2/devmapper merge
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 511075 in parted "FFe: Update to upstream GNU parted-2.1" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/511075
<ev> I may have one, for adding functionality to the installer to download and install ubuntu-restricted-extras (including running the decss script), as mentioned in the lightning round
<cjwatson> as noted in the lightning round, I'm still concerned about the gfxboot-update work
<cjwatson> but am doing more or less everything in my power about that
<james_w> I probably have minor one for bzr-builddeb for something that is probably a feature, even though it fixes a bug :-)
<tremolux> that blurry feature/bug line
<tremolux> :)
<james_w> I find that there's a relationship between the likelyhood of getting an FFe and the number of RM-reported bugs fixed in the upload, so I always hold back bug fixes from the release team until after FF ;-)
<tremolux> anything else here?
 * slangasek smirks at james_w 
 * tremolux knows almost nothing about the intricacies of FFes
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Milestoned bugs
<tremolux> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone:list=21445
<MootBot> New Topic:  Milestoned bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone:list=21445
<cjwatson> hmm, I moved bug 506418 to alpha-3, but I'm inclined to push it back to beta-1 again
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506418 in casper "[lucid] live cd does not shutdown" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506418
<cjwatson> any objections?
<lool> slangasek: We wont get 524893 for linux, but it's really not a big issue; it makes the versatile netboot initrd useless, but the kernel is still useful
<slangasek> cjwatson: seems fairly inevitable
<lool> Actually I could workaround that in d-i by using ext2 initrd
<lool> (CONFIG_CRAMFS=m but CONFIG_EXT2=y)
<cjwatson> err, cramfs?  we stopped using that in d-i yonks ago
<lool> cjwatson: Yes, but we have a bug that prevents initramfs from working and CRAMFS would actually provide initrd support as a fallback
<cjwatson> ugh
<lool> The bug is likely in qemu, but I'm not sure I'll figure it out
<slangasek> lool: I'd prefer not to be piling workarounds into d-i the day before the milestone; the set of folks looking to use versatile is fairly small, isn't it?  wouldn't it be enough if there were a daily available within a week or so of a3 that can be used?
<cjwatson> perhaps it's a cpio-endianness problem
<lool> slangasek: Right, actually I just thought of this option to fix the image, but it's really not critical for A3 (hence low priority); i've sent a patch to linux to set CRAMFS=y post-A3 as a more permanent workaround
<lool> cjwatson: Hmm that's interesting
<slangasek> ok
<Keybuk> and let's not use code that nobody's tested in years
<Keybuk> I didn't even know we still had cramfs in our kernels! :D
<cjwatson> that's down to 12 a3 bugs
<cjwatson> what about this rsyslog thing (bug 523610)?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 523610 in rsyslog "rsyslogd spins CPU on some kernels" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/523610
<cjwatson> affects upgrades from a2
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I'm looking at that now
<cjwatson> but doesn't necessarily have to go into the a3 images - it would be sufficient to have it ready for when a3's announced
<slangasek> since it's upgrades that are hit, we shouldn't need to respin, yeah
<Keybuk> right
<cjwatson> and then there's the three update-manager bugs, and one unattended-upgrades
<cjwatson> mvo, status of those for a3?
<cjwatson> bug 463506 doesn't look critical
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 463506 in update-manager "Karmic upgrade silently exits if /home does not exist" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/463506
<mvo> none of these are really criticial I think
<slangasek> not critical, but I believe they're there because they were fixed in SRU?
<mvo> I work on them today
<cjwatson> I don't see SRU traces in those bugs ...
<mvo> I put them there mainly as a reminder to get them fixed early
<slangasek> oh, ok
<mvo> (as a reminder to myself)
<slangasek> mvo: the documented convention for such is to use the milestone without release targeting
<slangasek> so you can have your own reminders without the release team nagging ;)
<mvo> oh, sorry
 * mvo will remember that
<cjwatson> ok, so that's all our milestoned bugs accounted for
<tremolux> cool, then
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Targeted bugs
<tremolux> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Targeted bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<cjwatson> loads of targeted bugs
<cjwatson> I really must deal with that grub2 sru at the top
<tremolux> anything more here?
<cjwatson> not sure we should sit going through them all here, but it would be worth everyone's time to have a glance through
 * slangasek nods
<tremolux> ok
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Sponsorship queue
<tremolux> [LINK] http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship queue
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<cjwatson> I was going to this week, but ran into the a3 freeze ... I'm going to move my regular sponsorship day to friday
<dholbach> Please help out with sponsoring: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ - it now shows packageset information! new contributors will love you for your feedback and review!
<dholbach> :-)
<cjwatson> I'm sure I get less done on average by it being on tuesday
<slangasek> is http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ a complete replacement for http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/?
 * tremolux is utterly useless in this regard
<dholbach> slangasek: the latter redirects
<tremolux> ah, I'll change the link in the meeting wiki
<dholbach> plus does the new one have branches :)
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Any business from activity reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any business from activity reports
<tremolux> I didn't see any
<tremolux> [TOPIC] Good News
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
<tremolux> who's got some?
<slangasek> I have a request under AOB, which isn't necessarily good news :-)
<tremolux> I have a couple of annoying software center bugs fixed and nobody's get the fixes yet  :D
<slangasek> when everyone has had a chance to put out their personal fires wrt stuff that's behind schedule, it would be great to have some eyeballs on http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/lucid_probs.html
<cjwatson> as of end of the week before last (been on holiday since then), ubiquity's partitioner is five times faster than in karmic - at least in my benchmark :)
<slangasek> things like ibus-pinyin uninstallable because a version that was uninstallable in Debian unstable was merged
<cjwatson> I've noticed that there seems to be a process hole wrt things being added to language-support, and MIRs
<cjwatson> the two don't seem to go hand in hand as a rule
<tremolux> so I think we are already into
<tremolux> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<tremolux> anything else?
<tremolux> oh, would somebody like to chair the next meeting?
<slangasek> I think I might be due, which is not quite an answer to the question you asked ;)
<tremolux> heh
<tremolux> slangasek: it's good enough, thanks  :)
<tremolux> so, are we done then?
<tremolux> 3
<tremolux> 2
<tremolux> 1
<tremolux> thanks a lot, everybody!
<tremolux> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:47.
<ev> thanks!
<Keybuk> thanks
<slangasek> thanks, all
<mvo> thanks
 * ara waves
<sbeattie> hey
<bdmurray> hi
 * fader_ waves.
<ara> marjo told me that he couldn't make it for today's meeting. I will be chairing the meeting
 * bladernr_ waves
<ara> so, let's start, it should be a quick one
<ara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is ara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ara> Agenda:
<ara> # Introduce Jeff Lane
<ara> # Alpha 3 Testing and optional testcases -- ara
<ara> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<ara> [TOPIC] # Introduce Jeff Lane
<MootBot> New Topic:  # Introduce Jeff Lane
<ara> Everybody, please, welcome bladernr_, our new Canonical QA member
<sbeattie> welcome bladernr_ !
 * bladernr_ waves at the world
<fader_> bladernr_: welcome!
 * YokoZar waves
<ara> bladernr_, welcome!
<davmor2> hello bladernr_
<ara> bladernr_, can you explain a bit about you?
<bladernr_> perhaps ;-)
<bladernr_> I just started on Monday and officially I'm a Hardware Certification Engineer.
<bdmurray> Like what your irc nick is about?
<bladernr_> Worked for Red Hat in support and Hardware Certification way back when
<bladernr_> and similar stuff at IBM.
<bladernr_> heh... it's an old one.  bladernr came from the movie Bladerunner
<fader_> bdmurray: I might have to ask for your geek card.
<davmor2> bdmurray: bladerunner ;)
<bladernr_> I've been using it since WAY back when BBSs were the rule
<cr3> davmor2: I think bdmurray figured that out, but the question is mostly "why" I suspect
<fader_> :)
<davmor2> cr3: :)
<bladernr_> cr3:  the WHY is just that I loved that movie, and have a thing for weird futures and post-apocalyptic tales
<bladernr_> and Zombies
<ara> bladernr_, do we need to pass the test?
<hggdh> heh
<bladernr_> ??
<bladernr_> perhaps... but do you dream of electric sheep?
<ara> :D
 * hggdh found the sheep's batteries dead
 * davmor2 doesn't dream I just unplug from the matrix from time to time
<ara> OK, bladernr_welcome to the mad house again! hope you enjoy it :)
<YokoZar> blademr_, have I seen you in person yet?  (have you been to a UDS pre-hire?)
<bladernr_> thanks!  I am already.  Madness is catching, it seems
<bladernr_> Nope
<bladernr_> YokoZar:  ^^
<bladernr_> I've not met any of you in person
<bladernr_> And i'm trying to decide if I should grow the Neckbeard of Power before I do ;-)
<cr3> bladernr_: a beard will definately inspire respect
<fader_> Or fear and loathing
<bladernr_> Hah... I'll have to point y'all to the pics of the beard... from last year
<bladernr_> or better, the mutton chops and handlebar
<cr3> bladernr_: last year, there was a "Beards of PyCon" photo album
<ara> OK, next topic, or this can last all day! :D
<cr3> ara: you're just sad you can't talk about beards :)
<ara> that's because I shave everyday
<fader_> cr3: http://www.google.com/products?q=fake+beard
<marjo> what is going on here!?
<cr3> ara: agreed, lets move on
<fader_> ara: You said marjo wouldn't be here!
<marjo> i thot this was the QA team meeting?
<ara> we were "welcoming" bladernr_
<marjo> i'm waiting in the lobby for my screed meeting that's having tech problems
<marjo> spreed, i meant
<ara> ok, let's move on
<ara> [TOPIC] Alpha 3 Testing and optional testcases -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 3 Testing and optional testcases -- ara
<ara> As you all know, Lucid Alpha 3 is due for... tomorrow! and ISOs need to be tested as usual
<ara> Desktop ISOs are being respun now, but alternate are safe to test
<YokoZar> Could I ask the current status of plymouth?  Initial testing on a few images last week required manual removal of the package to prevent hard lockups
<ara> for the new people, here's some documentation for ISO testing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures
<ara> YokoZar, nVIDIA?
<YokoZar> Yeah
<fader_> I'd add that if anyone has any questions about testing or wants to help but doesn't know where to start, please feel free to ask in #ubuntu-testing
<YokoZar> So far it's the only ISO-blocking issue I've seen
<ara> YokoZar, you can check how people are dealing with it at: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/xorg_prop_drivers/94_419.html
<hggdh> I just tried the server amd64 on kvm -- installation was OK, failed to boot (bug 524434?)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 524434 in ubuntu "Lucid Alpha 2 server iso install fails at bootloader in KVM" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/524434
<cr3> if anyone is preseeding the desktop image, note that you might need: d-i base-installer/kernel/backports-modules string nouveau
<YokoZar> There's the link I was looking for, thanks ara
<ara> In this testing cycle you will see some "optional testcases"
<ara> this means that they are optional for release, meaning, if they are not covered is not that critical
<ara> any other comment on this topic?
<fader_> ara: Just that I'm zsyncing now :)
<ara> reading seed.... 100% CPU ;-)
<sbeattie> really? Hrm.
<ara> ok, next?
<ara> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past two weeks (since 2010-02-10):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 18 new package in -proposed (bansheelyricsplugin, cryptsetup, ddclient, eucalyptus, foomatic-filters, gcalctool, gnome-games, ifupdown, landscape-client, language-packs, libapache2-mod-authz-unixgroup, libdvdnav, linux-ec2, linux-fsl-imx51, python-bzutils, recordmydesktop, samba, ubuntu-dev-tools) and 8 packages pushed to -updates (cups, foomatic-filters, gscan2pdf, krb5, libxml2, linux-firmware, metacity, rxvt-unico
<sbeattie> de)
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 2 new packages in -proposed (amsn, landscape-client)
<sbeattie> * intrepid: 1 new package in -proposed (landscape-client)
<sbeattie> * hardy: 5 new packages in -proposed (evolution-data-server, linux, mozplugger, php5, virtualbox-ose-modules)
<sbeattie> * dapper: no SRU activity
<sbeattie> Thanks to Kamal Mostafa, Mitch Towner (kermiac), Sean Cassidy, Myriam Schweingruber, Fredrik Olofsson, Besterino, Arne Christensen, Karl Palsson, Otus, machrider, Gregory Fong, yarly, Robert Toscano, and Michael Jeanson for testing packages in -proposed.
<sbeattie> karmic's list of packages is growing a bit long, so if, after alpha 3 iso testing, people wanted towork on getting those through, that'd be really appreciated.
<sbeattie> (that's all I have.)
<ara> OK, I will add, for the new people... if they want to learn about the SRU process
<ara> they can check documentation at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/PerformingSRUVerification
<sbeattie> Ah, yes, the list of packages awaiting verification in -proposed is at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<YokoZar> Just a comment, but I believe it's understood at this point that upon Lucid release it will be demanding more SRUs for longer then any previous release
<YokoZar> "for longer" in the sense that hardy and dapper SRUs have died down a bit
<ara> OK, that's it? Any other topics?
<bladernr_> ara:  thanks for the links
<sbeattie> YokoZar: well, yes, it'll be the latest LTS and the focus of most attention (as well as point releases)
<ara> bladernr_, if you don't know what a LTS release is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
<YokoZar> Just wanted to mention I've begun work hooking winetest into checkbox locally
<ara> YokoZar, nice!
<sbeattie> YokoZar: cool! Are you running into any issues?
<bladernr_> ara:  I do... thanks though.
<YokoZar> Upstream winetest is a (constantly growing) set of unit tests of various open gl functions
<cr3> YokoZar: awesome!
<YokoZar> Which makes it good for seeing if wine works, but also it's good at crashing video drivers
<sbeattie> YokoZar: ooh, that's really handy.
<cr3> YokoZar: is winetest integrated into phoronix already?
<YokoZar> cr3: no
<YokoZar> So one issue I have is that Wine has a separate place for submitting their test results, where they want you to enter an email address and some info about the machine
<YokoZar> But with checkbox we use launchpad
<YokoZar> And I'm not quite sure how to pull that data out of the launchpad account, or if that's even something I should do
<cr3> YokoZar: is it possible to override submitting to wine? or, do we want to do that?
<YokoZar> I believe we want to do that
<YokoZar> The tests are as useful to them as us
<cr3> YokoZar: is it possible to submit tests anonymously?
<YokoZar> Especially as we start stabilizing Lucid
<cr3> in other words, is there any particular reason why wine wants an email address? if so, what do they intend to do with it and what prevents me from entering bill@microsoft.com?
<YokoZar> cr3: The email address is a recent addition so they could ask more about the failures
<YokoZar> They were getting a bit too many reports with incomplete machine information
<cr3> YokoZar: isn't the solution to gather the missing information?
<YokoZar> I suppose we could enter an "email address" that just points to the launchpad checkbox report, which would have more complete info
<YokoZar> cr3: well they also wanted to have a means of retesting the same machine
<YokoZar> The test suite gets updated frequently
<YokoZar> And sometimes the tests themselves are "wrong" (although for our purposes a bad test that causes a crash is still helpful)
<cr3> YokoZar: we could provide a real email address by writing a checkbox plugin, which could reuse the launchpad email address
<YokoZar> This might be a place to use liblaunchpad
<YokoZar> I'll go ask upstream if a link to the launchpad account test result page would be sufficient
<cr3> YokoZar: there are a few possibilities which might go beyond the scope of this meeting, perhaps we can continue in #ubuntu-testing afterwards
<YokoZar> Yeah
<ara> thanks YokoZar
<YokoZar> Anyway, that's that :)
<ara> any other topics?
<ara> none?
<ara> OK, I think we can wrap up the meeting, then
<ara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:34.
<ara> Thanks everybody!
<marjo> ara: thx!
 * Lns pours some coffee
 * stgraber waves
 * stgraber pokes highvoltage 
 * sbalneav contemplates losing his job
<stgraber> sbalneav: ?
<sbalneav> Board chair here's taken a dislike to me, apparently.  I stood up to him :)
 * Lns applauds sbalneav 
<Lns> stick it to the man!
<sbalneav> Don't applaud, throw money.  I may need it soon :)
<sbalneav> Anywho, enough of my moaning :)
<sbalneav> Onto the meeting.
 * Lns looks around for highvoltage 
<Lns> sbalneav: I say all us edubuntuers pitch in and pay you a salary to work on it fulltime =)
<stgraber> I'm trying to poke him, he's unresponding on jabber and IRC for now, trying good old phone :)
<Lns> oldschool!
<stgraber> ok, he's there now :)
<highvoltage> hi!
<highvoltage> sorry just had to finish off something
<stgraber> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<sbalneav> Lunch?
<sbalneav> A beer?
 * highvoltage applauds sbalneav too and hands over a beer
<highvoltage> sbalneav: no, taxes :/
<sbalneav> I have some art/something updates
<mhall119|work> hello
<stgraber> ok, I'll start with the tech stuff then
<stgraber> that should be quick
<sbalneav> oh, bug day update too,
<stgraber> Edubuntu DVD is building correctly, I included KDE's langpacks to the mix as we carry quite a lot of KDE packages. Other than that, I haven't had the time to nag lamont about LTSP live but will do soon.
<stgraber> the Menu editor should be dropped from the agenda as it's in Edubuntu now and working well
<sbalneav> Huzzah
<Lns> woo!
<highvoltage> ok
<stgraber> LTSP live as I mentioned is now in universe (ltsp-livecd) and will be included in the live session though I need to get my code reviewed by lamont to pull the LTSP chroot in the DVD
<stgraber> thanks to highvoltage for the ltsp-livecd script and diff
<mhall119|work> yay!
<stgraber> How and I released LTSP 5.2, LDM 2.1 and LTSPfs 0.6 but I guess you're all aware of that already :)
<highvoltage> well it's incomplete but at least the package is in for FF!
<Lns> stgraber: yeah slashdot told me =)
<stgraber> it's been over 150000 visits on my blog btw
<Lns> nice!!
<highvoltage> stgraber: wow, awesome!
 * mhall119|work has been neglecting /. lately
<stgraber> and here's the new (Ed)Ubuntu member :)
<mgariepy> sorry, i'm late.
<stgraber> other than that, it's all on my side.
 * stgraber gives the mic to sbalneav 
<sbalneav> Did some looking at the bugs yesterday, but got sidetracked by work issues.
<sbalneav> I figure I'll put in a solid 8 hours worth of some bug fixing this weekend on the edu apps
<sbalneav> there's a few patches in there, we'll see if applying them works.
<sbalneav> We need a patch to the edubuntu-colors theme to prevent the "murrine defaults" error some of you may have seen
<highvoltage> sbalneav: if any of them are universe packages, please give me a poke
<highvoltage> the edubuntu-artwork package is in universe at least. there's also a bug regarding the icon theme so we'll have to do an update anyway
<Lns> highvoltage: what's that bug?
<highvoltage> Lns: I haven't filed it yet (oops), the Breathe icon theme is installed but the icon chooser says it can't find it, and then right beneath that it lists it
<sbalneav> highvoltage: ok, will do.
<Lns> oh gotcha
<highvoltage> Lns: probably just some weird naming thing. I first thought it was case related but that's fine
<Lns> I had an issue with (i think) the default gartoon theme, it didn't have icons for places/system menu iirc
<Lns> i might be mistaking for a different theme though..;
<highvoltage> it's been on my to-do list since last week, but besides the packages we got in for FF I've had 0 time for other edubuntu related things the last 7 days
<stgraber> highvoltage: sorry about that :)
<highvoltage> Lns: I believe the gartoon-redux theme that sbalneav pointed out fixes that
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, no don't be! :)
<Lns> sweet
<highvoltage> (sorry for silent space I'm just loading release schedule)
<highvoltage> alpha 3 is due for tomorrow
<highvoltage> stgraber: which images must be tested, todays daily build or tomorrows?
<stgraber> whatever is on iso.qa.ubuntu.com should be tested
<stgraber> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/edubuntu/all
<highvoltage> oh cool, it's in there already!
<highvoltage> so everyone please test those isos if you have the chance!
<highvoltage> I can probably do at least some of the i386 testint tonight
<sbalneav> Lns: yeah, have a look at the gartoon-redux, it's in my ppa
<highvoltage> stgraber: do you think it would be better to get a FFE for gartoon-redux, or include it in the edubuntu-artwork package for Lucid?
<highvoltage> oh wait, I'm being dumb
<stgraber> I'd better have it a separate package, though it's not a feature so shouldn't need a FFe
<highvoltage> we don't need a FFE for artwork packages I think
<mhall119|work> oh good
<highvoltage> oh good news is that the qimo-games package made it into the archives at least
<sbalneav> Art's not a feature, it's an expression of the hopes, dreams an aspirations of Man!  Art LAUGHS at your freezes!
<mhall119|work> hopefully qimo-artwork and qimo-session will be accepted once I make some chances to the license files
<Lns> sbalneav: get a haircut, hippie! =p~
<sbalneav> thbthbthbthbthbthb </raspberry>
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yes I think they should go fast now
<mhall119|work> which I haven't done yet, because I spent all my time fixing loco-directory and preparing for teaching in #ubuntu-classroom
<mhall119|work> oh, and doing some paid work every once in a while
<highvoltage> yeah I guess everyone has to do some paid work every now and again :)
<mhall119|work> it wouldn't be so bad if someone was paying me to work on Qimo and loco-directory
<highvoltage> I don't know. sometimes some things are just better not doing as part of your paid job. I've done a lot of non-profit work before and I've seen some people's passions just drained when it became their day-job and they didn't enjoy it so much anymore
<alkisg> Yup :)
<highvoltage> anything else we need to cover for the meeting? I think for the larger part, most of the to-do items from last week still needs some attention, and we also need to test the iso for the 23rd
<mhall119|work> oh I agree
<mhall119|work> i meant it would be nice to get my currently salary, while working on what I wanted
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: *nod*
<mhall119|work> so really, I just need a wealthy benefactor to support my life of luxury
<mhall119|work> maybe a cosmonaut or something
<mhall119|work> I have something I'd like to discuss when it's open-mic time
<highvoltage> I'm incredibly lucky in that the company I work for gives me a whole day a week for Edubuntu/Ubuntu related work. that seems like an ideal situation to me.
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: very nice
 * highvoltage grabs the mic from sbalneav since he fell asleep and hands it to mhall119|work 
<alkisg> <offtopic>highvoltage if you want any help in the live-ltspcd script tell me, I do have some code around that might prove useful</offtopic>
<mhall119|work> okay, so I'm trying to gather people for a doc-jam for Global Jam weekend
<mhall119|work> my plan is to document edu-games
<highvoltage> alkisg: great! yes you're the first person I would think of for that and I'll certainly call on you
<mhall119|work> is there a currently list of games included by edubuntu?
<mhall119|work> "a currently", I fail grammar
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: there might be on the wiki, if there is it's probably out of date. ditto for the website
<mhall119|work> I'd like to at least document names, category, description, age recommendations and perhaps a screenshot
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: we've changed the seeds for lucid a bit to include some more things from universe
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: okay, how about a package list?
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: I can get that for you if you want
<mhall119|work> that would be appreciated, thanks
<highvoltage> or... you could get it directly from the seeds, one moment...
<mhall119|work> also, do you know if Ubuntu gets it's screenshots from the Debian screenshot database?
<highvoltage> or I'll get it for you lateer :)
<mhall119|work> later would be fine
<mhall119|work> global jam isn't until end of march
<mhall119|work> though I'll probably build out templates on the wiki before thenm
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: I believe it does, since it shows a debian logo when there is no screenshot available
<mhall119|work> ok, so I'll make sure we submit something there if no screenshot exists
<mhall119|work> even if it's just me doing the jam
<mhall119|work> but if I offer free food, I can probably round up some others
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: this is something quite dated but seems similar to your idea: http://www.edubuntu.org/UsingEdubuntu
<mhall119|work> that looks pretty nice actually
<mhall119|work> not a wiki though :(
<Lns> mhall119|work: we could always start with the descriptions from the packages themselves (apt-cache show <packagename>).. Also I stole^H^H^H^H^Hwrote up some descriptions of *some* games at http://www.logicalnetworking.net/services/ubuntu_ltsp.html (search "Featured Educational Applications")
<mhall119|work> Flash menus Lns?
 * Lns sighs
 * mhall119|work wags his finger
<Lns> wasn't me!! =p
<Lns> I'm getting my new site up and going anyway
<Lns> wordpress =)
<mhall119|work> wordpress == win
<Lns> seriously...love it
<mhall119|work> I'll pull from those resources to get started
 * highvoltage knows lots of people who actively hate it, but that's another discussion
<mhall119|work> it's better than drupal
<Lns> better than b2evo
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: wordpress has a worse security history and has worse coding practices and worse performance, but I like its interface and it works well for me and it requires less setup to work nicely as a blog out of the box which is why I continue using it for myself
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: and I also like how easy it is to keep it up to date
<Lns> yeah..security issues aside, I just pin the wordpress package in debian and update it manually
<highvoltage> anything else for this meeting?
<mhall119|work> also, I've tried to write Drupal modules
<Lns> mhall119|work: I'll gladly help you w/doc jam, ping me for any help you need
<mhall119|work> sure
<Lns> screenshots, vids, etc.. I've been wanting to create some video demos of edu apps anyway
<sbalneav> sorry, called away for a bit.
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yep and ping the mailing list as well about it :)
<Lns> +1 highvoltage
 * sbalneav cedes mike
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: will do
<mhall119|work> ceding me?
<highvoltage> heh, as in "mic"
<mhall119|work> lol
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: in many non-american places it's known as a "mike"
<mhall119|work> really?
<Ahmuck-Sr> hi
<mhall119|work> I'm only known as "mike" in american places, so I guess it's okay
<highvoltage> hi Ahmuck-Sr
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: heh
<highvoltage> ok let's move over to #edubuntu, I need to look at a bunch of translations so I'll only be there a bit later
 * highvoltage hits the meeting over bong...
<highvoltage> *bong*
<mhall119|work> ouch!
<Lns> don't break it now!
<highvoltage> sorry didn't see you there mhall119|work
<Ahmuck-Sr> ow, i missed it
<highvoltage> t/win last
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-25
<mhall119|work> np highvoltage
<mhall119|work> oh wait, that was from ages ago
 * mhall119|work should go to sleep
<dpm> Hi everyone!
<trijntje> hi
<vdquynh> Hi from Vietnam :)
<sianis> hello
<dpm> hi trijntje, vdquynh, sianis :-)
<dpm> let's see who else is here for the translations meeting
<sianis> kelemengabor: ping
<adiroiban> o/
<dpm> hey adiroiban
<kelemengabor> sianis: pong
<dpm> so it seems we've got quite a good attendance from different teams today
<Malin_> Im from Norway
<dpm> hey Malin_, welcome! how is the Norwegian team doing?
<Malin_> dpm, I don't know, I was just curious about translating, so I'm not in part of the team ;)
<dpm> no worries, hopefully you'll learn something new and exciting about translations today :)
<sergimateo_> o/
<dpm> so let's get started, shall we?
<dpm> hey sergimateo_, how's life in l'Hospitalet?
<dpm> [TOPIC] Review of the Ubuntu Translations policies and best practices
<dpm> So as I commented on the mailing list
<dpm> It's basically about
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase#Policies
<dpm> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase#Guidelines
<dpm> Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to finish the guidelines yet, so I'll focus on the policies on this meeting
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase#Policies
<dpm> Essentially, I want to see what you guys think, and if you believe they constitute something we can use as the basis to give some more structure to the project
<Malin_> yeah I just would take a look :)
<dpm> for some teams it will not be any change
<dpm> but for others, especially the part of the guidelines, will affect them
<dpm> for the best, though :)
<dpm> I'd like to discuss some of the particular points separately, but first some general feedback, so what do you think?
<adiroiban> dpm: I am worried of one thing... not to have to many documentation pages for translations
<adiroiban> there are already a lot of pages and a lot of information
<adiroiban> the pages are great
<adiroiban> but I am not sure if new teams
<adiroiban> will not be turned down by so many requirements
<adiroiban> I am worried especialy on new teams
<adiroiban> since they start without knowing anything about translations
<adiroiban> they have few resoursec (people/time)
<dpm> adiroiban, yeah, that's a good point. That was also one of the reasons I tried to keep the policies short and simple as well, and make the guidelines not a requirement for starting the team
<adiroiban> small teams < 5 contributors
<adiroiban> in the Policies section
<adiroiban> we have 8 links
<adiroiban> i think we should choose one page that is important for all teams
<adiroiban> and add it in the header
<adiroiban> or make it bold
<dpm> Recently we've started pointing teams out to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam, and I think we could use this. I think as the policies as a reference document
<adiroiban> or make it blink
<adiroiban> :)
<dpm> :-)
<dpm> I mean, I'd point teams to the policies when they've got questions, e.g. "why does our team needs to be moderated"?
<adiroiban> StartingTeam is a good page...
<adiroiban> but it can get lost among the other 7 links from the policies
<dpm> adiroiban, what do you think of the above, then? I.e. using the StartingTeam page only and make it prominent in the front Translations page
<dpm> (which is screaming for a rework, btw :) )
<adiroiban> I am not sure what is the best sollution
<adiroiban> I will think about it :)
<adiroiban> the idea is to highlight the information that each team coordinator MUST read
<adiroiban> and make it accesible (easy to find and easy to read)
<adiroiban> StartingTeam is easy to read
<adiroiban> not so easy to find
<dpm> I think I could spend some time simplifying the front page and try to make it more useful and make it easy to find that page, this might be a start
<adiroiban> putting a link from the start page would be a start
<adiroiban> KnowledgeBase sound like an place to store info for existing teams
<dpm> ok, so I think that's a good plan to start with, thanks adiroiban
<adiroiban> another thing, would me mailinglists
<adiroiban> not sure if we should ask each team to have its own mailinglist
<adiroiban> the Romanian l10n team is using the Romanian LoCo team
<vdquynh> The problem with mailing-lists is when you get subscribed to so many :-/
<adiroiban> and we have low traffic
<dpm> We're not asking them to have a mailing list, just a communication channel, be it forum, another ML, etc
<adiroiban> we mainly use the forum
<sianis> we use ubuntu-l10n-hu
<dpm> yeah, I know the problem vdquynh :-)
<adiroiban> dpm: ok. but then how do we/translators know what comunication channel is used in a team
<adiroiban> and for that
<adiroiban> I was thinking
<adiroiban> to add a requirement
<adiroiban> to list a set of info on the Launchpad teams page
<vdquynh> I agree with adiroiban!
<trijntje> the dutch team uses a mailinglist
<trijntje> +1 to contact information on teampage
<adiroiban> dpm: and make this wikipage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact/Teams ... distributed on each team LP page
<dpm> adiroiban, like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/LaunchpadTeam#TeamPage ?
<adiroiban> dpm: yes
<dpm> ok, but just to move forward on that one, we do all agree that we should ask for a communication channel (any) as best practice, don't we?
<adiroiban> yes. a communication channe is a must
<kelemengabor> yeah, every team needs one, be it ml or forum
<dpm> ok, great
<dpm> adiroiban, what exactly do you mean with making the Contact/Teams page distributed on each team's LP page?
<dpm> you mean basically having the info that's there on the team's home page in LP?
<adiroiban> dpm: the information for each row of that table
<adiroiban> to be find on each teams page
<dpm> I get you
<adiroiban> and then delete that wikipage
<dpm> yeah, I agree
<adiroiban> as it is redundant
<adiroiban> and hard to maintain...
<dpm> ok, I agree as well, but I'd like to maintain it until at least the teams there have migrated the info to each team's page
<adiroiban> dpm: sure
<adiroiban> we already have some hints about editing the teams LP page on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
<dpm> yeah, some of the content there I should just reuse and use Includes
<dpm> there is a bit of redundant info on the StartingTeam page
<adiroiban> yep
<dpm> but I wanted to make it easy for new teams to have all important info there
<dpm> without having to click too much around
<adiroiban> but it's ok
<adiroiban> Team information
<adiroiban> on Team information
<adiroiban> it would be nice to have a link to an already existent team
<adiroiban> as an example
<adiroiban> en_UK should do the trick... as it will only contain text in english
<dpm> good point, I was thinking of the Romanian one, though ;)
<dpm> that's a good idea, I should contact the British team to make sure we can use them as an example
<adiroiban> i'm done with the comments for policies... and I invite others to comment :)
<dpm> yeah, I'd simply like to hear if people are happy with them, if you find them useful and make sure they do not become too much of a burden
<dpm> while at the same time
<dpm> being an improvement
<dpm> in how the project and teams are run
<vdquynh> I have no particular comments on the policies. They're fine. Anyway, I can see that the Vietnamese translation team abides by the rules :-)
<dpm> that's great, thanks for the feedback vdquynh :)
<trijntje> I think they are fine too, nothing too burocratic
<vdquynh> We are rather, IMHO, working loosely as a team, with evryone rather working in its corner, but the final result so far is better than expected and in progress.
<vdquynh> I was talking of the VN Tanslation team !
<dpm> that's great vdquynh. Sometimes a wiki for tracking assignments, and setting goals helps with working more as a team, perhaps you could try that, in case you're not already doing it
<dpm> anyway, I'm glad to hear that and there seems to be general consensus on the policies
<dpm> I can think of two other things which might represent a change for some teams: requirement of guidelines and requirement for the team coordinator to be subscribed to the ML
<trijntje> I thought that the guidelines you get directed to from launchpad where language specific, but it seems they are language + ubuntu specific?
<dpm> trijntje, they are language + translation group specific
<adiroiban> trijntje: i guess they should be the guidelines for the Ubuntu translation team
<dpm> so for ubuntu you get directed to the Ubuntu ones for your language
<adiroiban> but for example, for Romanian we only have some notes about upstream connection and then link to a general language guidelines
<dpm> any comments on subscription to the ML? Do you think the traffic on the list is too high to ask coordinators to subscribe? Someone commented me some time ago it might be an idea to have a separate list only for announcements, and ask people to subscribe to that one, but I'm not very keen on the idea
<adiroiban> the ubuntu-translators traffic is low (after my standards)
<kelemengabor> dpm: not too high
<sianis> dpm: it isn't high
<adiroiban> for annoucement only we can use a RSS feed
<adiroiban> or a blog
<adiroiban> or something
<kelemengabor> and asking everybody to subscribe is not the same as asking them to read everything ;)
<adiroiban> but the ML should encourage discussion and the exchange of ideas/probles/best practices
<dpm> :)
<sianis> adiroiban: I think planet is good enough
<sianis> for annoucement
<adiroiban> yep... but i think annoucements where a different issues
<adiroiban> and we touched this topic in a previos meeting
<dpm> ok, I already knew we wouldn't have time to cover all topics, so we can postpone the rest for the next meeting or the ML. Any other input on policies, any particular points you'd like to highlight/discuss?
<dpm> otherwise we can dedicate the last few mins to Lucid translations Q&A, if there are any questions
<adiroiban> dpm: at least this meeting was more animated than the previous ones
<adiroiban> so I guess this is a good thing
<dpm> \o/
<adiroiban> + we are always on the #ubuntu-translators
<trijntje> I have a general question about upstream: Should translators submit translations from launchpad upstream?
<vdquynh> I think it is good to request Ubuntu translation team leaders to subscribe to the ubuntu-translators ML !
<adiroiban> so if someone want to raise an issue we can talk ... at almost any time
<adiroiban> trijntje: the should...
<adiroiban> but is not that easy
<dpm> trijntje, in general, yes. You'll find more basic info there: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream
<adiroiban> as it requires extra resources
<dpm> trijntje, it is currently not done automatically, so you have to manually export the PO fiels and send them upstream, or translate upstream
<trijntje> but cant upstream just fetch the translations form launchpad?
<kelemengabor> adiroiban: perhaps we could help on this... esp. on this part of the wiki: "Find out where upstream is"
<kelemengabor> trijntje: they could, as anyone can
<kelemengabor> but everybody waits for somebody to do it
<adiroiban> kelemengabor: we can hint them where to send
<vdquynh> Anyway you would need coordination betwenn the launchpad team and the upstream team (eg GNOME and Firefox and OOo)
<kelemengabor> so nobody will do it :)
<adiroiban> but not all teams for all languages are active
<adiroiban> and not all have the same process
<adiroiban> kelemengabor: for a ânormalâ translator it almost imposible to send translation to more than one upstream project
<adiroiban> as it needs to read a lot of pages
<adiroiban> subscribe to all kind of different tracking system
<kelemengabor> adiroiban: I know, this is why even I don't do it
<adiroiban> comunicate with all kind of persons
<trijntje> but the other way around, upstream would also have to fetch it from 10 different places
<adiroiban> trijntje: yes...
<trijntje> well, maybe ill look into it after lucid is done
<adiroiban> but right now
<adiroiban> there is only Ubuntu doing translations downstream
<adiroiban> :)
<adiroiban> so
<adiroiban> right now
<adiroiban> upstream will only have to get the translations from their upstream repository + ubuntu repository
<dpm> trijntje, yeah, the idea is to automate this at some point in LP, and adapt to each upstream to send them translations, but for now it still needs to be done manually
<adiroiban> trijntje: and also inside upstream teams there are problems how to send translations
<dpm> anyway, the meeting is over, but we can continue the discussion at any time on #ubuntu-translators
<trijntje> adiroiban, don't suse and arch and fedora etc translate?
<dpm> Thank you everyone for participating
<sianis> dpm: it this mean, that the export process of LP will b fixed?
<adiroiban> trijntje: I don't think so
<adiroiban> they are only translating their OWN applications
<vdquynh> OK. Bye everyone. I have work to do for to-morrow and its midnight here in VN !
<adiroiban> but they are not translating GNOME or Firefox
<dpm> sianis, it's on the roadmap: https://dev.launchpad.net/VersionFourDotO/Stories#Translations, but it will take some time to be implemented, for now there's just the idea
<dpm> So again, thanks for the great feedback and see you on #ubuntu-translators!
<dpm> bye everyone!
<trijntje> bye all
<erdalronahi> bye
 * greg-g waves
 * oubiwann waves back
 * fader_ embarrassedly half-waves in case anyone were waving at him.
<james_w> hoping it wasn't someone stood behind you?
 * dylanmccall is in deep concentration, deciding whether to wave
<fader_> james_w: Exactly.  I'm trying to be an extroverted geek by staring at your shoes instead of my own. :)
<james_w> :-)
<oubiwann> hehe
 * akgraner waves o/ to greg-g et al :-)
<greg-g> hiya akgraner
<brettalton> QUESTION: for our interview, do we need the people who gave us testimonials to be in this chatroom during the process??
<greg-g> brettalton: no, it is nice if they can be here, but if their testimonial is on your wiki page, you're fine.
<brettalton> greg-g: okay, thank you!
<akgraner> brettalton, nope they don't have to be but it is always nice to have people in the channel for you..
<pleia2> hi everyone :)
<brettalton> akgraner: thanks!
<YoBoY> ho talking about the membership? :D you ask what type of question for the interview, i need a little preparation to answer in english ^^"
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:00. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<greg-g> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the
<greg-g> Americas meeting for February. The wiki page for the Review Board is
<greg-g> available here:
<greg-g> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<greg-g> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<greg-g> The format for the meeting is as follows:
<greg-g> We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<greg-g> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<greg-g> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<greg-g> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<greg-g> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<greg-g> Flare183 (if you're here), you're up!
<pleia2> I think not
<pleia2> I'll drop them an email to remind them that they're on the list
<greg-g> alright then, how about dylanmccall
<pleia2> [TOPIC] dylanmccall membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  dylanmccall membership
<dylanmccall> Hi!
<dylanmccall> So, as my name suggests, my name is Dylan McCall. My Wiki page is over at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DylanMccall
<dylanmccall> I have been happily using Ubuntu since (I think) around 2006. I really dove straight in to the fun technical stuff at that point :)
<dylanmccall> I've keenly followed development since then, especially the blogs and Launchpad infrastructure.
<dylanmccall> Recently I have become a bit more involved in contributing fixes to bugs and with the Vancouver loco.
<nixternal> I know dylanmccall's background a bit from the ubiquity slideshow work, in which I am working with shtylman on the Kubuntu side of it, and I know he is here for a while :)  my only questions is this, if you are currently in Vancouver, how cool is the Olympics stuff there? Seeing as us in Chicago, will probably never get to have an Olympics here :)
<dylanmccall> It's probably the most people I have ever seen using public transit in Vancouver :)
<greg-g> cool!
<nixternal> hehe, and if you ever meet the young lady, that after the USA beat Canada in hockey (rubbing it in just a little bit), that held up the sign "At least we have healthcare", please shake her hand and tell her that was one of the most awesome things I have ever witnessed :)
<greg-g> looks like you are subscribed to a few blueprints in LP, are you working on much outside of the ubiquity slideshow stuff?
<dylanmccall> I am, although I've definitely focused mainly on the slideshow for the last while
<greg-g> dylanmccall: good deal
<pleia2> [VOTE] dylanmccall membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  dylanmccall membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> (please only board members vote :))
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<greg-g> +1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> dylanmccall: http://dylanmccall.blogspot.com/2009/07/w3c-boycottnovell-is-invalid.html  <- by far one of my more favorite posts of yours...
<pleia2> congrats and welcome, dylanmccall!
<h00k> Holy cow, I am lagging really bad, apologies if I don't respond to something.
<nixternal> congrats and welcome dylanmccall \o/
<h00k> congrats, dylanmccall
<greg-g> congrats dylanmccall
<dylanmccall> Thanks, folks! :)
<ev> congratulations dylanmccall!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Pendulum membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  Pendulum membership
<Pendulum> Hiya! (btw, I apologize now as my computer has started acting up so hopefully it'll behave for the next few minutes :) )
<Pendulum> I'm Pendulum or Penelope Stowe
<Pendulum> my wiki is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Pendulum
<nixternal> wow Pendulum, all of your testimonials were looking great until I saw akgraner's name in there :p
<czajkowski> whooo Pendulum
<czajkowski> :D
<Pendulum> I've been using Ubuntu off and on since 2007
<Pendulum> mostly I'm involved in Ubuntu Women and I co-organized and lead the first Ubuntu User Day this January
<Pendulum> I'm also involved in Ubuntu NGO as co-head of the Advocacy team and the other main thing I do is work on transcribing the Ubuntu Uk Podcast
<greg-g> Pendulum: can you tell me a little bit more about the AAC project?
<Pendulum> greg-g: not much has happened with it yet, we've mostly been researching, but mgdm and I are trying to figure out a way to create an open source alterantive communication aid for people who can't talk
<nixternal> yeah, that AAC idea looks groovy. I know maco2 is working on an app to teach signing...accessibility love!
<mgdm> greg-g: if I may add something here? It's something we've been reading up on, it hasn't developed into actual code yet, but that's entirely my fault
<cjohnston> Pendulum has been a huge help in the #ubuntu-classroom, and helping to run the first Ubuntu User Day!
<Pendulum> this came out of a friend of mine who stopped being able to talk after an operation over the summer and when she was looking as alternative assistive audio devices, they're all incredibly expensive
<greg-g> gotcha, well, good luck, I'm really interested in this topic
<Pendulum> and mgdm and I thought "why can't this be done in an open source way on relatively inexpensive hardware?"
<Pendulum> (I'm also disabled and there's a chance that in the future I'll benefit from such a device myself)
<hypa7ia> Pendulum: i had no idea you were hacking on adaptive tech, that's so awesome :D
<nixternal> why can't I ever come up with cool ideas like that?
<czajkowski> nixternal: cause you;re trying to find a twitter client and spamming folks :p
<Pendulum> hypa7ia: we haven't really started the hacking yet, just the research :)
<beuno> Pendulum, what's missing from Ubuntu that you need to add OSX into the mix?
<hypa7ia> Pendulum: ping me after the meeting, we should talk :D
<nixternal> czajkowski: har har...my ex-wife emailed me today with a "WTF?" hahaha, she got spammed too
<Pendulum> beuno: I work in publishing where we heavily depend on Quark and InDesign, also I have yet to find a good speech recognition software on Ubuntu (feel free to reccomend) and due to my disability, sometimes I can't physically type
<beuno> Pendulum, I can't recommend, unfortunately, but it's good to know, thanks
<pleia2> I think we're about ready to vote, any more cheers for Pendulum?
<Pendulum> so I use Ubuntu for most things and MacOS for work stuff and when I can't physically access ubuntu
<AlanBell> yes!
<mgdm> Yes, definitely
<Iowan> I'll cheer
 * h00k cheers
 * gchick cheers
<h00k> three times, at that.
<nixternal> rock on
<popey> o/ cheer for Pendulum
<akgraner> go Pendulum
<czajkowski> she's pretty good and helps when you're swamped
<pleia2> [VOTE] Pendulum membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Pendulum membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<beuno> +1
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Mamarok> Cheers also from Pendulum
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Technoviking> +1
<maco2> cheers here too
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Mamarok> from me,*
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<hypa7ia> +1
<nixternal> congrats and welcome Pendulum \o/
<popey> \o/ congrats Pendulum
<czajkowski> Pendulum: whoooo congrats :D
<nixternal> woohoo :)
<Pendulum> Thank you!!!!!!!
<brettalton> congrats Pendulum!! I can't wait to read about your work in the future. And a delayed congrats to dylanmccall!!
<AlanBell> yay!
<pleia2> congrats, Pendulum!
<h00k> COngrats!
<mgdm> Pendulum: congratulations :D
<greg-g> congrats Pendulum
<dylanmccall> Congrats, Pendulum! :D
<Mamarok> Congratulation, Pendulum :)
<rww> congrats :)
<akgraner> congrats Pendulum !
<AlanBell> Pendulum: *hugs*
<hypa7ia> wow, only one minute for voting? :s
<maco2> woot!
<hypa7ia> congrats Pendulum :)
<nixternal> we are good like that :)
<pleia2> hypa7ia: the whole present board voted :)
<beuno> hypa7ia, only board memebers vote  ;)
<pleia2> [TOPIC] h00k membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  h00k membership
<h00k> GGreetings, I am Anthony Hook. You can find my wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnthonyHook. I'm involved as the Team Contact in our Ubuntu Wisconsin LoCo (Which I just recently got a domain at http://ubuntu-wisconsin.org)
<itnet7> congrats pendulum!
<nixternal> wait a second, h00k have you been down to an Ubuntu Chicago event before? you look way to familiar
<h00k> The site is still in its infancy and is a work in progress.
<h00k> nixternal: I have not :(
<nixternal> we had/have a guy who comes down from Milwaukee and he looks very much the same :)
 * exigraff was in chicago, but hasn't been projecting h00k's appearance that he's aware of
<nixternal> groovy!
<hypa7ia> pleia2: oops :)
<h00k> nixternal: I have been invited to Madison to talk but haven't yet
<nixternal> this is awesome, tony, h00k, Ubuntu Chicago, Ubuntu Michigan...we need to do an Ubuntu Midwest one of these days!
<beuno> h00k, you say "I am very interested in experiences of new users and in the ways to make it more positive". Care to expand on what you think can be done?
<h00k> I've been using Ubuntu only for the past three years, I've been more heavily involved (bug reporting and testing various things) in the last few years
<greg-g> it has been discussed, but nothing really happened, nixternal
<nixternal> h00k: where do you all usually do your get togethers or meetings? I would be down for a road trip, and I could probably get greg-g to come with :)
<greg-g> h00k: how is the Wisconsin loco doing?
<greg-g> and, yeah, nixternal is probably right
<h00k> nixternal: That would be fun, our meetings are generally online, but I'd be up for a road trip
<h00k> beuno: I believe first-time experiences are important to new users as I've helped quite a number on campus. I think they should have access to help such as the #ubuntu irc channel (which I help out in)
<h00k> beuno: I think a community is a very important step in this feeling welcoming process
<nixternal> I had no clue Wisconsin was starting to take off, seeing as I am only an hour from the border and go up to Door County quite a bit during the summer, and Madison as well for cycling, and then I do T.O.A.D. the Tour of America's Dairyland...great to see WI working it
<pleia2> h00k: wow, voicecheck seems neat, how is that going?
<h00k> in a "break the notion that linux is really hard and only for leet hackers" kind of way.
<h00k> pleia2: so far, it works, and it's only a command-line-app
<h00k> pleia2: I'd like a gtk implementation soon, I'm learning about python using my new Tux Droid and I would like to add support for that
<pleia2> h00k: cool :)
<h00k> greg-g: not to not-address-your-question: The Ubuntu Wisconsin LoCo has had quite  a bit of activity online lately, we had our first meeting (in a few years) a couple weeks ago
<greg-g> h00k: awesome, how was that meeting?
<h00k> greg-g: we are planning on participating in the upcoming Global Jam, we haven't decided which events yet, however.
<beuno> h00k, I hear quickly is the future for gtk apps
<nixternal> and I hear qt is the future of mankind :p
<exigraff> heh
<pleia2> [VOTE] h00k membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  h00k membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<h00k> greg-g: the meeting was good, we got quite a few good ideas for things, you can view the notes here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-wi/2010-February/000106.html
<nixternal> +1
 * tonyyarusso came in late, but wants to speak for h00k 
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<greg-g> h00k: thanks :)
<rww> tonyyarusso: looks like you don't need to :)
<h00k> tonyyarusso: welcome!
<tonyyarusso> He's done awesome work with LoCos, both Wisconsin and Minnesota.
<tonyyarusso> But I will anyway!
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome h00k \o/
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<beuno> oh, in that case...  -1
<pleia2> congrats, welcome h00k!
<beuno> aw, too late
<greg-g> congrats, h00k
<pleia2> beuno: hahah
<Pendulum> congrats h00k!
<h00k> beuno: Also, quickly is nice, yeah, I have a few hello worlds with it.
<rww> congrats, h00k!
<h00k> Thanks, everyone!
<nixternal> greg-g: we do Ubuntu Midwest, get tonyyarusso there, we will have our own cycling team
<brettalton> congrats h00k!
<h00k> and tonyyarusso, you too!
<exigraff> h00k: congrats, sir.
<h00k> Thanks :D
<h00k> \o
<beuno> welcome h00k!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] rww membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  rww membership
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: That would be fun - we could do a cross-region Ubuntu bicycle relay, handing off a ceremonial Live CD to each rider as they cross their state!
<itnet7> congrats h00k!
<rww> hi!
<h00k> thanks, itnet7!
<rww> Hello! I'm Robert (also known by my initials, rww). I've been doing Ubuntu advocacy and user technical support on IRC and in "real life" for almost a year and a half now.
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: actually, that seems like a pretty cool idea for real...hm
<rww> Hello! I'm Robert (also known by my initials, rww). I've been doing Ubuntu advocacy and user technical support on IRC and in "real life" for almost a year and a half now.
<rww> ... eep
<rww> I've been with the California LoCo team since December of 2008 and have helped to plan and participated in numerous events. I also do administrative work on our team wiki, mailing list, and IRC channel.
<rww> Support-wise, I've been helping out in #ubuntu and elsewhere in the #ubuntu* namespace since autumn of 2008.
<rww> My wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobertWall has a bunch more details :)
 * maco2 sends cheers for rww too
<rww> (oh, and I hear you got a mailing list testimony about me also)
<tonyyarusso> I've also witnessed rww on the IRC support side of that - somehow he manages to patiently work with users without losing his mind, which is awesome!
<nixternal> nice testimonials by menza and nhaines :)
<nixternal> rww: oh yeah, thanks.../me looks
<Pendulum> is also in in support of rww
<RedSingularity> Meeting still in session?
<h00k> I'd like to put in a good word supporting rww as well. He is a great community member in the IRCland.
 * rww blushes
<akgraner> rww was helping the LoCo team booth at SCaLE and last year at OSCON as well and he also participated in the ubucon at SCaLE as well
<Yasumoto> rww is a huge contributor to Ubuntu California, sometimes he's the only reason things get done :)
<nixternal> ooh, even flannel had nice things to see....rock on
<beuno> rww, what's the nicest thing about the ubuntu community?
<nixternal> please say me!
<pleia2> lol
<h00k> nixternal: you stole my line :(
<tonyyarusso> ("The lovely people of the Ubuntu Americas Board, *batbat*")
<rww> beuno: "I am what I am because of everyone." I think this community embodies more than any other I've seen, and it's really motivated me to continue participating in it :)
<rww> (also nixternal)
<nixternal> woohoo!
<beuno> see, that, besides "the americas board", was the perfect answer
<greg-g> well done
<pleia2> [VOTE] rww membership
<maco2> rww is one of the people trying to make #ubuntu-offtopic a little more sane
<MootBot> Please vote on:  rww membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<h00k> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from h00k. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<pleia2> welcome rww!
<nixternal> ooh, I accidentally typed a -1 at first...thank god I caught that before hitting enter
<greg-g> congrats rww
<pleia2> now where are we going for beers? :)
<nixternal> congrats and welcome rww \o/
<itnet7> Congratulations rww !!!
<Pendulum> congrats rww!
<maco2> yay!
<rww> Yay! Thanks everyone :)
<h00k> rww: welcome!
<brettalton> sweet, congrats rww
<akgraner> congrats rww!!
<exigraff> rww: grats!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] brettalton membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  brettalton membership
<brettalton> Hi everyone! My name is Brett Alton and I am (was?) a professional web developer, now computer science student, studying in Canada. My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BrettAlton
<brettalton> I have been using Ubuntu as my main desktop since Ubuntu 5.10 (Breezy Badger), but was introduced to Linux with Ubuntu 4.10 (Warty Warthog).
<nixternal> Oh Canada! in the house tonight!
<brettalton> I have made a number of contributions to the Ubuntu community including installing Ubuntu on 50+ desktops and 10+ servers (meaning professionally), contributed to thousands of Ubuntu Forum posts (questions and responses), brainstorm ideas, bug reports, feature requests, blog posts and other discussions.
<brettalton> I am currently helping the GetDeb.net project with user interface work and am developing a website for Martin Owens' Ground Control, while keeping an eye on FOSS/Ubuntu/Debian/GNOME development with many many RSS feeds.
<brettalton> Lastly, I have been writing scripts for Ubuntu since 2007 (hosted on my personal website http://brettalton.com and Ubuntu Forums) and use Ubuntu as my primary development desktop for professional, casual and eduational work.
<brettalton> nixternal: and we will beat the US for gold in hockey, don't you worry :)
<nixternal> jcastro: ^^
<nixternal> lets get um!
<brettalton> I am looking forward to helping the Ubuntu community in the future, first by becoming an Ubuntu Member, becoming a certified Ubuntu Professional, getting my CS degree and eventually working for Canonical or for a Linux-related company!!
<beuno> brettalton, "# I want to see Ubuntu with at least 10% of the desktop market share". That won't fix bug #1!
<ubottu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)
<nixternal> beuno: nothing is going to fix bug #1, well nothing legally at least :)
<ubottu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)
<brettalton> beuno: Fixing bug #1 will take a lot of work, from programming to legal issues, to changing the mindsets of millions of people... I'm trying to be a realist!
<ubottu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)
 * rww pats ubottu 
<nixternal> oops, forgot about that :)
<brettalton> especially with the IPAA telling Indonesia that they're pretty much communists because they suggest open source for their government operations... http://bit.ly/bzLSEH
<nixternal> so, did you bribe martin with the web design to get a good testimonial? :p
<beuno> brettalton, what do you feel is lacking the most in ubuntu server?
<nixternal> the work that getdeb is doing I have to praise, as I know a ton of people who absolutely love the site and what it is doing to help...one of these days maybe we can sucker them more into ubuntu :)
<brettalton> beuno: because I used/installed/supported LAMP for so long, I think a graphical interface to setting up a server is a big issue.
<brettalton> I worked for a school board where they used Windows Server specifically because it had a GUI
<brettalton> rapache is a good first step, but we need Canonical backing
<brettalton> that being said, I had GUI on the server
<beuno> brettalton, why do you feel you need Canonical backing?
<pleia2> a gui on the server? gasp :)
<brettalton> beuno: I just mean it needs more professional support, rather than a couple hackers.
<brettalton> beuno: and I think it needs to be an option for users when they want to install a server
<brettalton> to have all the tools sitting there ready for them to use if they want a GUI
<nixternal> oh nice... brettalton I have used your rsynch over ssh script in the past :)  nice to meet ya
<brettalton> nixternal: thanks!
<brettalton> I used that professional for a couple companies and they love it!
<brettalton> professionally*
<beuno> brettalton, you can have a solid project and included in ubuntu server with no Canonical involvment
<beuno> don't let that delay any plans  ;)
<brettalton> beuno: I don't doubt that for a second, I mean it just needs integration on the server CD or as a separate ISO
<nixternal> " Wrote a 4-part series in Full Circle Magazine regarding Web Development in Ubuntu"   <- which I very much enjoyed btw
<brettalton> All i mean is I'd like to see it as a viable option for those who want it, instead of another desktop environment like Ubuntu/Kubunty/Xubuntu/Lubuntu, etc.
<pleia2> [VOTE] brettalton membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  brettalton membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pleia2> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome brettalton \o/
<brettalton> thanks everyone!
<pleia2> welcome, congrats brettalton!
<greg-g> congrats brettalton
<Pendulum> congrats brettalton!
<pleia2> we have to wrap this up in 14 minutes, so I think we're only going to have time for one more
<greg-g> alright folks, I think we have time for one more (many board members have to leave at the top of the hour)
<greg-g> what pleia2 said :)
<pleia2> PabloRubianes, you about?
<PabloRubianes> hi
<pleia2> [TOPIC] PabloRubianes membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  PabloRubianes membership
<PabloRubianes> Hello I am Pablo Rubianes from Montevideo Uruguay
<PabloRubianes> my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PabloRubianes
<h00k> contrats, brettalton!
<PabloRubianes> I am a computer engineering student, I am part of Uruguay's LoCo Community Council and I a ubuntu Beginners Team member
<brettalton> h00k: thanks! I sure wrote a handful and didn't even get to the topics I wanted to speak on! Oh well, I'm in! :)
<nixternal> wow, looks like you have been pretty busy PabloRubianes
<PabloRubianes> so so nixternal :D
<nixternal> you are an answer providing junkie from the looks of it :)
<cjohnston> PabloRubianes did a great job as one of two who organized the Spanish version of Ubuntu User day.. I think he would be a great asset to the ubuntu membership!
<beuno> PabloRubianes, hola! I see you do quite a bit of translations, have you thought about applying for the official spanish translators team>
<nixternal> groovy cjohnston!
<PabloRubianes> beuno: I don't know because is not something I love... but i like to help several projects as Ground control
<beuno> you shouldn't do things you don't love
<nixternal> now that is a great answer
<h00k> brettalton: Yeah, i could have answered a ton of questions, too.
<nixternal> i know a few who would have come up with an excuse for that one, including me probably :)
<PabloRubianes> I hope to develop something in the near future and keep with the progress with the spanish speaking community
<beuno> PabloRubianes, how is open source in the government looking with the new president?
<PabloRubianes> great
<PabloRubianes> he is going to go on with Plan Ceibal (OLPC)
<brettalton> PabloRubianes: Watch out for the new Ground Control website... I'm making it!
<PabloRubianes> and we the loco team are about to get an interview with him... hoping so...
<beuno> PabloRubianes, wow, that sounds interesting
<PabloRubianes> brettalton: I have to see that
<PabloRubianes> we have high hopes to get Approved as a Official Loco this year also
<pleia2> cool :)
<nixternal> awesome!
<pleia2> [VOTE] PabloRubianes membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  PabloRubianes membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome PabloRubianes \o/
<pleia2> congrats PabloRubianes! :)
<PabloRubianes> thanks!!!!
<greg-g> congrat PabloRubianes
<beuno> PabloRubianes, how many ubuntu members from uruguay, with you included?
<Pendulum> congrats PabloRubianes!
<PabloRubianes> I think I am the only one who lives here...
<greg-g> alright, I need to run, congrats to all the new members and thanks for all your contributions (and FUTURE CONTRIBUTIONS) to Ubuntu!
<akgraner> congrats PabloRubianes
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:54.
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<beuno> PabloRubianes, doble felicitaciones entonces
<Pendulum> greg-g: thank you!
<PabloRubianes> there's an uruguayan ubuntu member who lives in central america
<PabloRubianes> Yes very happy!!!
<nhaines> congratulations to all!
<PabloRubianes> hope to encourage more uruguayans!
<brettalton> ... so what happens now??
<brettalton> congrats PabloRubianes!
<brettalton> what happens now, as in that we are Ubuntu Members...
<PabloRubianes> thanks brettalton
<tonyyarusso> brettalton: You keep doing the awesome stuff you were doing before.
<nixternal> oubiwann:, RedSingularity, fader_, Yasumoto:  2 weeks from right now, Thursday March 11, 2010 @ 23:00 UTC, we will meet in here again and get you processed for membership
<fader_> nixternal: Excellent, thank you!
<beuno> brettalton, pleia2 will take care of you in a little while
<Yasumoto> nixternal: sounds great, thank you :)
<oubiwann> nixternal: sweet -- thanks!
<brettalton> okay, thanks everyone!
<nixternal> looks like another good group next week too....very exciting!
 * beuno waves at all the awesome new members
<nixternal> err, in 2 weeks I mean :)
<RedSingularity> Very good.  Thanks!
<h00k> Thank you, everyone.
<dylanmccall> Thank you! :)
<PabloRubianes> :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-26
 * marjo waves
 * bladernr_ waves back
 * ameetp waves
 * ttx waves
<robbiew> \o/
 * apw looks acout blearily
<cjwatson> hi
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-02-26
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-02-26
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
<slangasek> marjo: you're on :)
<marjo> * Lucid Alpha 3 Test Report
<marjo> 2010-02-26
<marjo> = Summary =
<marjo> == Test Coverage ==
<marjo> Mandatory Testcase Coverage: 138/180 = 76.67%
<marjo> Optional Testcase Coverage: 3/19 = 15.79%
<marjo> Image Coverage: 32/32 = 100%
<marjo> === Test Failure Analysis ===
<marjo> 19 Test Failures
<marjo> Failure Rate 19/141 = 13.48%
<marjo> please note image coverage of 100% thx to everyone who helped out!
<seb128> hi
<marjo> even with late respins of images
<marjo> == Bugs summary ==
<marjo> === Summary of Unfixed Issues ===
<marjo> 59 bugs unfixed
<marjo> High - 7
<marjo> Medium - 6
<marjo> Low - 2
<marjo> Undecided - 44
<marjo> === Summary of Fixed Issues ===
<marjo> 9 bugs fixed
<marjo> High - 1
<marjo> Medium - 4
<marjo> Low - 1
<marjo> Undecided - 3
<slangasek> next time, we'll have DVDs working to make it more of a challenge ;)
<marjo> Here's the list of bugs that were marked as "serious" by testers
<marjo> == Serious bugs found during testing ==
<marjo> Sorted by status from New to Fix Released
<marjo> #527828 | kubuntu oem-config 'No valid steps.'
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | New
<marjo> #528331 | [Lucid Kubuntu] Ubiquity crashes in PartMan.py when choosing manual partitioning and creating new partition - NameError: global name 'partman' is not defined
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | New
<marjo> #528346 | Impossible to select in wich disk install to (resize)
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | New
<marjo> #526626 | [Alpha 3 Testing] Ubuntu Logo on UNE doesn't minimize applications and show Launcher anymore
<marjo> go-home-applet (Ubuntu)                | Undecided | New
<marjo> #527447 | [Lucid Netbook Alpha 3] env crashed with SIGSEGV in setlocale()
<marjo> coreutils (Ubuntu)                     | Medium    | New
<marjo> #527972 | [Lucid Alpha 3] usb-creator.exe does not accept ISO selection on Windows XP system
<marjo> usb-creator (Ubuntu)                   | Undecided | New
<marjo> #527148 | dove fails to shutdown
<marjo> linux-mvl-dove (Ubuntu)                | Undecided | New
<marjo> #527870 | karmic -> lucid CDROM only upgrade fails
<marjo> libsdl1.2 (Ubuntu)                     | Undecided | New
<marjo> update-manager (Ubuntu)                | Undecided | New
<marjo> libsdl1.2 (Ubuntu Lucid)               | Undecided | New
<marjo> update-manager (Ubuntu Lucid)          | Undecided | New
<marjo> #527848 | [Lucid] ubi-partman failed with exit code 141 during manual partitioning
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | New
<marjo> #527115 | [Lucid Xubuntu] Can not perform an upgrade using "update-manager -d"
<marjo> update-manager (Ubuntu)                | Undecided | New
<marjo> #524439 | 20100219 Server ISO fails to set up console keyboard correctly
<marjo> console-setup (Ubuntu)                 | High      | Triaged
<marjo> console-setup (Ubuntu Lucid)           | High      | Triaged
<marjo> #528034 | Ubiquity crash on Lucid alpha 3 20100225 Kubuntu
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | Incomplete
<marjo> #527377 | on resize mode i can't choose in which disk install to
<marjo> gparted (Ubuntu)                       | Undecided | Incomplete
<marjo> #527377 | on resize mode i can't choose in which disk install to
<marjo> gparted (Ubuntu)                       | Undecided | Incomplete
<marjo> #458482 | usb drives imaged with usb-creator fail to boot on some systems
<marjo> usb-creator (Ubuntu)                   | High      | Confirmed
<marjo> #510524 | Multiple freeze during boot
<marjo> plymouth (Ubuntu)                      | High      | Confirmed
<marjo> #510524 | Multiple freeze during boot
<marjo> plymouth (Ubuntu)                      | High      | Confirmed
<marjo> #527832 | [Lucid] Ubiquity shuts off my monitor during the startup to live environment
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | Undecided | Confirmed
<marjo> #527932 | [Lucid Kubuntu] Ubiquity crashes in PartMan.py when choosing manual partitioning - AttributeError: 'PartMan' object has no attribute 'allow_change_step'
<marjo> ubiquity (Ubuntu)                      | High      | Fix Committed
<marjo> #527722 | pre depends loop
<marjo> upstart (Ubuntu)                       | Medium    | Fix Committed
<marjo> sorry about very long listing!
<marjo> * Hardware testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Netbook:
<marjo>   	passed:   9 (70%) failed:   1 (15%)	untested: 3 (15%)
<marjo> Laptop:
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> 	passed:   26 (100%) failed:    0 (  0%) untested:  0 (  0%)
<marjo> Server:
<marjo>   	passed:   52 (96%) failed:    0 ( 0%) untested:  2 ( 4%)
<marjo> Desktop:
<marjo> 	passed:   11 (92%) failed:    0 ( 0%) untested:  1 ( 8%)
<marjo> the untested netbooks will be tested next week
 * mvo will look at the update-anager problems
<slangasek> I'm puzzled by some of those new Kubuntu partman bugs, I thought those were fixed in ubiquity before our respin
<marjo> so, will be closer to 100%
<cjwatson> the plugin migration in ubiquity had a fair bit of fallout, and I think we have a lot of tidying up to do there
<marjo> cjwatson: thx for that info; will keep an eye on developments
<marjo> for beta-1
<mvo> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/current/ <- also does not look great
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/current/ <- also does not look great
<marjo> mvo: would like to follow up w/ you and ara on upgrades topic
<mvo> marjo: sure, stepmaker opens up a vastly cool new test area, I'm very excited
<slangasek> cjwatson: is that mostly affecting Kubuntu because of difference in how much testing it's gotten?  Does it make sense to have people doing tests of desktop dailies as these bugs get fixed?
<marjo> mvo: +1
<cjwatson> slangasek: more because of differences in code layout, but yes, if it's not entirely ridiculous I think desktop daily testing would be valuable
<slangasek> cjwatson: for both Ubuntu and Kubuntu, or is it primarily Kubuntu we need to worry about?
<cjwatson> I'm more worried about Kubuntu
<slangasek> marjo: is it possible for you guys to commit some resources to doing daily install tests of Kubuntu desktop over the next few weeks?
<slangasek> (generally only needed after there's been an ubiquity upload...)
<marjo> slangasek: yes, we are also working w/ rickspencer3 on desktop bug finding anyway
<marjo> slangasek: agree
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [ACTION] QA Team to retest Kubuntu desktop after ubiquity uploads
<MootBot> ACTION received:  QA Team to retest Kubuntu desktop after ubiquity uploads
<marjo> Specs Status
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-platform-qa-lucid-alpha-3.html
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<marjo> * Checkbox Desktop Experience Tests
<marjo>    Remaining work items moved to Beta 1
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-platform-qa-lucid-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<marjo>    - Extract CPU- and I/O-data provided by bootchart
<marjo>    - Improve test reporting for boot times
<marjo> * Identify and implement kernel test cases to automate
<marjo> 	Last work item moved to Beta 1
<marjo>    - Evaluate EC2/UEC integration
<marjo> * lucid-qa-bugs-hwdb-querying
<marjo> 	Medium priority blueprint â work items moved to Beta 1
<marjo> that's all folks!
<slangasek> ok, thanks!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<slangasek> ttx: hi
<ttx> slangasek: o/
<ttx> Our updated status at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> Alpha3 end status, a few work items have been deferred to beta1, a few others simply postponed to lucid+1 or never
<ttx> Nothing left in alpha3
 * slangasek nods
<ttx> Beta1 planning is believed to be complete
<ttx> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<ttx> should show what we are aiming at for beta1
<ttx> The most impacting thing in there is probably "EBS root"
<slangasek> hmm, when did pitti say he was resetting those lines? :)
<ttx> slangasek: something like, today :)
<slangasek> ah, but he's off today, oops :)
<ttx> EBS root will probably impact EC2 deliverables
<ttx> The rest is mostly QA/Doc/Bugfixing
<ttx> Beta1-targeted bugs:
<ttx> I listed those in the report, they don't all have assignees yet
<ttx> That will be fixed by next week, obviously
<slangasek> ttx: impact EC2 deliverables how?
<ttx> slangasek: IIUC we would also publish a EBS root system
<ttx> (rather than just an AMI)
<ttx> smoser: around ?
<smoser> here
<ttx> could you explain impact of EBS root deliverables, if any ?
<smoser> the end result is more ami-XXXXXXXX numbers
<ttx> (on the release process)
<slangasek> ah :/
<smoser> and, then, ISO testing on those.
<slangasek> doubles the current number?
<smoser> yeah.
<ttx> slangasek: other questions on that part ?
<slangasek> are we sure that supporting both types of images as first-class Ubuntu images is the right thing to do?
<ttx> slangasek: we expect most people to use those instead of the regular ones in a few
<slangasek> ok
<ttx> since they basically allow persistence for a reasonable cost
<ttx> smoser: correct me if I'm wrong here
<ttx> Ok, moving on to bugs affecting server, in other teams:
<smoser> there is extremely little reason to prefer instance-store images.
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to record server-lucid-ec2-ebsroot work items related to ISO testing integration
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to record server-lucid-ec2-ebsroot work items related to ISO testing integration
<smoser> so, yes, we expect high usage of ebs root ami
<ttx> bug 506297
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506297 in plymouth "Graphical Ubuntu logo enabled on servers, no more login prompt" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506297
<ttx> That one was already revealed in alpha2 ISO testing
<ttx> bug 524439
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 524439 in console-setup "20100219 Server ISO fails to set up console keyboard correctly" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/524439
<ttx> That one is more recent.
<ttx> Both are linked to plymouthization if my understanding is correct.
<ttx> That's about all for me. Questions ?
<slangasek> yes; the former is covered by Keybuk's work this week (and next) to Fix Plymouth
<slangasek> the latter will take a back seat to this for the moment, AIUI, since it has the same assignee
<cjwatson> oh, I took over the latter
<slangasek> oh, ok
<cjwatson> I'll take over the bug too
<ttx> slangasek: cool, we need those cosmetic issues fixed for beta1, since we want to call for testing quite widely
<slangasek> wasn't sure if you had taken it and assigned it back again
<slangasek> ttx: the plymouth stuff is so very much more than cosmetic :-)
<slangasek> fortunately, your cosmetic issue will get fixed in the process :)
<ttx> slangasek: the bugs are, though :)
<slangasek> only on server; for everyone else they're crasher bugs
<ttx> I mean, their symptoms are easily workaroundable
<ttx> right :)
<cjwatson> the console-setup one is chiefly complicated by the kernel sucking
<cjwatson> I've been trying to see if I can make the kernel not suck
<ttx> cjwatson: interestingly enough, I can't reproduce it if I have a crypted LVM
<ttx> cjwatson: looks like the keyboard setup for password prompt kinda sticks to console
<ttx> (not sure if that helps in any way)
<Keybuk> that's an interesting issue
<Keybuk> setting the keyboard layout so you can type your plymouth passphrase, but while plymouth is running
<Keybuk> eep
<cjwatson> ttx: that's because then the console is set up in the initramfs
<ttx> cjwatson: ack, makes sense
<slangasek> ok - anything further on server?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
<slangasek> ttx: thanks
<slangasek> asac: hi
<asac> hey
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<asac> summary:
<asac> * rootstock/qemu stabilization ... this is what occupied ogra for quite some time ;)
<ogra> still doing
<asac> it works, but seems qemu goes up and down a bit ... (nothing i would be worried about)
<ogra> qemu is messy
<asac> * thumb2 porting sprint and porting  -> we had another mini sprint this week, where we managed to scratch a few more packages from our thumb2 list
<asac> * obviously we had alpha3 testing ... which didnt reveal really bad regressions, yay!
<ogra> no, it rather improved :)
<ogra> apart from the openoffice issue :)
<asac> * openoffice "uno" investigation - round 2 - started (417009)  -> this about a bug we carry since karmic and we try to put resources in now that we are past FF
<ogra> but that was fixed in time
<asac> webservice specs - implementation started --- not much to implement, but we are getting pulled into other projects these weeks so we are not yet ready to upload
<ogra> seems NCommander is on something there ... not sur its the actual issue but seems to be narrowed down a bit more
<asac> howver, the office glue code seems to work quite well so i hope this will happen once we come back next week from a mini summit
<asac> e.g. just a matter to package .desktop files up together with it and ensuring we dont claim too many mime-types etc.
<asac> Image Status:
<asac> * imx51 and dove in usable shape
<asac> ok on Specs:
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<slangasek> asac: what about these specs that still have outstanding workitems for alpha-3?
<asac> i thought i cleaned them up ... most likely some have still a bad label next to the Work items (...) and hence show up there
<ogra> yeah, the powermanagement spec should be sorted
<slangasek> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-arm-lightweightbrowser still shows as outstanding
<asac> slangasek: that has one TODO left ... which is to complete the feature comparison (that isnt really relevant anymore)
<slangasek> the "bad labels" are precisely what gets tracked on work item status, so please clean these up :)
<asac> i can mark that as posponed
<slangasek> is there a final decision there to ship firefox, then?
<asac> slangasek: yes.
<slangasek> ok
<asac> slangasek: unless someone jumps in and forces us ;)
<asac> (not expected atm)
 * slangasek nods
<asac> so RC Bugs:
<asac> list grew a bit this week and we have a few more candidates which wait for verification
<asac> we got from a3 testing
<asac> porting list is not moving as fast as we would like to, but the list is small enough to not to be considered a risk
<asac> main point i wanted to rais is the thumb2 rebuild we will now do
<asac> thats not RC Bugs anymore ;)
<asac> i will coordinate the final package list with doko who wanted to include libs in that rebuild ... then we will split it up in chunks
<slangasek> how soon do you think the rebuilds will start, and how long is it expected to take to finish?
<asac> and send out an announce to ubuntu-devel before starting ... also i will keep you updated before each batch
<asac> slangasek: start on monday.
<ogra> ... universe looks bad wrt FTBFS and thumb porting ... would be nice if there would be a MOTU team somehow that would be intrested in arm help
<slangasek> what's the reason for splitting the rebuild into chunks?
<asac> slangasek: time it will take: thats difficult to estimate. i hope 2- 3 month
<asac> slangasek: in case we underestimate how long it will take i thought it might be beneficial to not pump everything in one batch
<slangasek> oh, well, we don't have 3 months before release, even
<slangasek> so yeah, we wouldn't want to leave a bunch of stuff in the queue still at release time
<asac> right. thats the idea ... do it in chunks ... so we dont have stuff building when release happens ;)
<slangasek> is this 2-3 months whole-archive, or just main?
<asac> or even at milestones (which proabably would hit us hardest)
<asac> slangasek: sorry 2-3 weeks ;)
<slangasek> oh
<seb128> you need to rebuild everything?
<ogra> heh
<slangasek> that's saner
<asac> thats an optimistic estimate
<seb128> or just thing which didn't get uploaded in lucid?
<asac> but it shouldnt take much longer
<ogra> seb128, only stuff that wasnt built yet
<slangasek> and I guess that's definitely just main, then
<seb128> ok
<asac> seb128: just things that were not uploaded
<asac> slangasek: right. just main
<asac> we wont do that for universe this cycle
<ogra> seb128, nothing from your desk for sure :)
<asac> unless things go really quick and we see that we can push more chunks
<slangasek> asac: will you cross-check against the list of out-of-date packages, to make sure we're not getting unnecessary reuploads of packages that already FTBFS? http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/lucid_outdate.html
<asac> seb128: also libs that were build before some date that doko has to give me (there was a toolchain bug we need to wipe)
 * asac checks
<asac> slangasek: yeah we should take that into account
<slangasek> in the meantime, we should move on, unless there's anything else to cover for Mobile?
<asac> i will try to get those removed from the list
<asac> not from us
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
<slangasek> asac: thanks
<slangasek> apw: hi
<apw> hi
<asac> thanks
<apw> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the first URL below, including the items called out in the agenda.  Alpha-3 activity shows 100% complete, I have pushed out a number of items which are highlighted in the release status.  Beta-1 activity is summarised at the second URL below, with those item pushed out shown as At Risk.  Out burndown chart is at the third URL:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20ubuntu-10.04-beta-1
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20ubuntu-10.04-beta-1
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> Of the pushed out items most are not critical to the release.  The main issues are well progressed, patches for the readahead scanning are in testing, discussions on builtin modules are in progress, and we hope to have the majority closed out soon.
<apw> The bugs picked out in the agenda are progressing well.  The first we have fixes for and they should be uploaded today.  The second is likely fixed by upsteam DRM which are testing at the moment, another stong indicator that we need a drm update in lucid.  Discussion on that should be concluded by early next week.
<apw> ..
<slangasek> is '..' and EOF marker I'm unfamiliar with? :)
<slangasek> (I guess so!)
<slangasek> any questions for kernel?
<apw> heh yeah .. is an EOF  we use that in our meetings sorry!
<apw> i've updated the first one to fix the pushed items formatting
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
<slangasek> apw: thanks
<slangasek> seb128: hi
 * ScottK is here for Kubuntu
<seb128> slangasek, hey
<seb128> status is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> the weekly summary for the team:
<seb128> desktop-lucid-startup-speed considered done now (pitti still tracking one udisks item)
<seb128> DX integration: integrated new releases, gnome-power-manager ported to the application-indicator system
<seb128> OLS integration: rhythmbox music store in main and on by default (but server side not activated yet)
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> Desktop changes: GNOME 2.29.91, gtk client side decoration, new gnome-keyring, gwibber installed by default now (but not autostarted yet)
<seb128>  
<seb128> the alpha3 work items are on http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-lucid-alpha-3.html
<seb128> Overall status: all alpha3 work items done excepted one desktop-lucid-social-from-the-start documentation item which can be delayed to beta;
<seb128>  
<seb128> the beta1 list is on http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<slangasek> seb128: there was also an outstanding workitem for #
<slangasek> desktop-lucid-new-firefox-support-model
<seb128> (sorry got wireless disconnected and reconnected)
<seb128> slangasek, the desktop-lucid-new-firefox-support-model items got done I think
<slangasek> seb128: well, it's not marked as done
<seb128> (from what pitti told me, checking)
<slangasek> identify extensions to be kept in archive - binary components or importance can qualify an extension: TODO
<seb128> hum, it's not on http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-lucid-alpha-3.html for some reason
<slangasek> oops :)
<seb128> asac, ^ do you know about that one?
<seb128> slangasek, I don't have an answer about this one right now, will check and come back to you later
<slangasek> seb128: sounds good
<slangasek> [ACTION] seb128 to check on status of outstanding a3 wi for desktop-lucid-new-firefox-support-model
<MootBot> ACTION received:  seb128 to check on status of outstanding a3 wi for desktop-lucid-new-firefox-support-model
<seb128> otherwise for beta1
<seb128>     * desktop applications are being ported to the new appindicator systemn around 6 of those changes are waiting for review now or will be soon and should go in lucid before beta-1
<seb128> we should get those done next week
<seb128> + we will need extra testing on gtk client side decoration
<seb128> that's still new technology and could create issues
<seb128>  
<seb128> otherwise kubuntu summary is on the wiki too
<seb128> not sure if somebody from the kubuntu team usually speak for those ;-)
<slangasek> ScottK: anything you want to add regarding Kubuntu?
<ScottK> For Kubuntu the main thing is getting kdebindings fixed on armel
<ScottK> That's planned for next week.
<ScottK> We're also still looking to get the KDE Firefox patches in.
<slangasek> that should help clean up http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/lucid_outdate.html :)
<ScottK> I know asac and Riddell` were working on that, but don't know exactly where se stand.
<ScottK> Yes
<ScottK> We're dead on armel at the moment
<ScottK> koffice is updated to koffice2 in Universe
<ScottK> We won't have a koffice in Main this cycle (upstream isn't confident enough)
<ScottK> Riddell removed kdevelop since it's KDE4 release doesn't happen until May
<ScottK> We are very, very close to moving kdelibs (the KDE3 one) to Universe
<ScottK> That's it.
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> anyone with questions on desktop?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX Team
<slangasek> seb128, ScottK: thanks
<slangasek> davidbarth, njpatel: hi
<davidbarth> hi slangasek
<davidbarth> so not much to say this week
<davidbarth> report at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus as usual
<njpatel> slangasek, hey
<davidbarth> mostly work on bug fixing system indicators further
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<davidbarth> of note, is the actual landing of cs-deco, after some last minute performance issues were solved by seb128 and bratsche
<davidbarth> oops, the content of the report should be good now; i forgot to save
<davidbarth> be sure to relead in a few secoinds
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-gtk-improvements
<davidbarth> further bug fixes
<davidbarth> reminder: use the 'gtk-csd' tag for bugs related to that change
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-xsplash - further work on that is being postponed to L+1
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-session-menu: #506683 is fixed and released
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-notifications: we have a patch for the closenotification api in testing right now; should land next week before b1
<davidbarth> we had not planned to do major releases this week, still tedg made tarballs for 6 of our projects to release more bug fixes
<davidbarth> questions?
<cjwatson> dx-lucid-netbook-launcher-startup-speed is marked as todo in foundations-lucid-boot-performance - are you tracking that as well?
<davidbarth> cjwatson: that part is done as far as we're concerned
<davidbarth> cjwatson: i should mark it so, unless some stakeholder has a different feedback
<slangasek> davidbarth: I gather from emails that foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update is still blocked on having the new graphics, can we talk about this?
<davidbarth> cjwatson: hmm, actually, let me check that again, as i haven't seen recent charts with the results of netbook-launcher
<cjwatson> davidbarth: it's only supposed to be marked done once it's been confirmed as hitting its budget
<davidbarth> cjwatson: as a reminder for next week, ie there should be no regressions
<cjwatson> slangasek,davidbarth: I'll cover that in our section - we revisited that with the design team today
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> and we're going to take a different approach
<davidbarth> cjwatson: right, so let's put that as an action item for me for next week
<davidbarth> slangasek: yes, the new graphics are blocked
<davidbarth> cjwatson: ah ok fine
<cjwatson> (no disrespect intended etc., new plan just seems more viable)
<slangasek> anything else on DX?
<slangasek> [ACTION] davidbarth to check on budget status of dx-lucid-netbook-launcher-startup-speed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidbarth to check on budget status of dx-lucid-netbook-launcher-startup-speed
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<slangasek> davidbarth: thanks
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<cjwatson> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-foundations-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-foundations-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html
<cjwatson> Beta-1 work items are mostly composed of deferrals from alpha-3 (the alpha-3 list should be at zero after the next refresh), so there are several specs there with one or two tail-end work items to tidy up.
<cjwatson> (and sorry I hadn't cleaned up the alpha-3 list before now)
<cjwatson> Boot speed doing well, with kernel+plumbing+X down to 6 seconds on reference hardware.
<cjwatson> parted 2.1 migration in progress, following FFe.  With a little bit of partman work on top, this will give us non-512-byte sector support and better alignment, so should hopefully clear up a lot of "doesn't wor
<cjwatson> k with Windows 7" bugs.
<cjwatson> Plymouth still a hot button; lots of bugs related to that.
<cjwatson> The plugin migration in ubiquity has been a bit rough, and we're knocking off bugs related to that as fast as possible.  They're mostly small.
<cjwatson> We need a volunteer to clear up the rest of foundations-lucid-supportable-binaries.
<cjwatson> Java and X versions still need to be confirmed for foundations-lucid-release-collaboration-with-debian.
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update discussed with design team today.  Backing off from previous pre-greeter approach, which was going to take too long to polish up UI-wise, and planning to use ubiquity's language selector instead; this will involve a lot less new code.
<cjwatson> Still a number of software-center tasks open, but the list is beginning to look under control.
<cjwatson> --
<slangasek> I had volunteered to follow through on foundations-lucid-supportable-binaries, it's just been getting pushed down the stack by other fires
<cjwatson> ok, shall I assign the remaining work items to you?
<slangasek> sure
<slangasek> gfxboot-update> doesn't that mean we have the problem of the UI not being translated in the live env?
<cjwatson> no, it shouldn't do - standalone ubiquity language selector -> try/install choice -> if you select try, starts live env
<cjwatson> if you select install, continues
<slangasek> oh, ok
<slangasek> neat, then :)
<cjwatson> this is all from discussion today, but I'm feeling a lot happier about it after that
<slangasek> all looks sane to me - anything else on Foundations?
<cjwatson> we're mostly hunkering down for bugfixing now, I think.
<slangasek> indeed
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<slangasek> jdstrand: hi
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> you can see our status here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<jdstrand> as far as dev work is concerned, we were done with alpha-3 stuff last week. that did not change this week :)
<jdstrand> and the team as a whole worked on security stuff in stable releases this past week, so nothing new to report
<slangasek> phew :)
<jdstrand> that's pretty much it
<slangasek> anything of concern for beta1?
<jdstrand> no
<slangasek> ok, cool
<jdstrand> we are in bug fixing mode
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> jdstrand: thanks
<jdstrand> the bps that are left are either not dependent on a milestone or are bug fixes
 * sistpoty|work waves
<ScottK> sistpoty|work: You around?
<jdstrand> np
<slangasek> ScottK, sistpoty|work: hi
<ScottK> sistpoty|work: You go first
<sistpoty|work> we got a haskell and an ocaml transition waiting to be finished
<sistpoty|work> Laney tracks haskell, and makes good progress afaict
<ScottK> ocaml is making progress too (I see the bug reports)
<sistpoty|work> ocaml is also tracked, could need some more people uploading rebuilds
<slangasek> ocaml I've been seeing bug reports for; haskell I have not - perhaps because there are no FFes needed there?
<sistpoty|work> others than that, FFe handling started quite smooth
<slangasek> I could take some ocaml rebuilds, where's the list?
 * sistpoty|work looks
<ScottK> Watching the Debian Python 2.6 tranisition work, I'm a little nervous about our status, but don't have specifics.
<sistpoty|work> bug #526073
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 526073 in xstr "[OCaml 3.11.2 transition][round 3/6] Please rebuild packages involved in OCaml transition (universe)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/526073
<slangasek> sistpoty|work: thanks
<sistpoty|work> others than that, thanks for driving motu-release <-> ubuntu-release merge, slangasek
<slangasek> ScottK: python> you're concerned about latent bugs in Ubuntu's python 2.6 that aren't getting picked up?
<ScottK> slangasek: Yes.
<antihacker> anyone know what axel.dav is.
<slangasek> ScottK: what are the chances those bugs were marked release-critical in Debian?
<ScottK> slangasek: Once we get a little further along we should have another look at sync/merge candidates
 * slangasek nods
<ScottK> slangasek: Some, but many are just getting fixed without bugs being filed
<slangasek> ScottK: yep, figured
<ScottK> I'm sure once python2.6 is default in Debian we'll get more
<slangasek> ScottK: at what point further along should we review the sync/merges for python?
<antihacker> anyone know what axel.dav is?   low level format access violation  DAV
<ScottK> antihacker: You're in the wrong channel
<antihacker> k, sorry
<ScottK> slangasek: Let's say two weeks.  Not sure really.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [ACTION] ScottK, slangasek to review python sync/merge candidates ~Mar 12
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK, slangasek to review python sync/merge candidates ~Mar 12
<slangasek> noted :)
<slangasek> anything else to discuss?
<ScottK> Not from me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<sistpoty|work> don't think so
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> sistpoty|work, ScottK: thanks, as always
<slangasek> anything else someone wants to cover here today?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:37.
<slangasek> thanks, folks!
<marjo> slangasek: thx
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-28
<jussi01> topyli: Pici nhandler_ ping!
<topyli> pong
<Pici> poing
<jussi01> ooh, we have quorum!
<jussi01> shall we wait a moment?
<topyli> a Pici appears! :)
<topyli> perhaps we can afford a few minutes
<jussi01> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is jussi01.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jussi01> [Topic] Revisit #ubuntu-ops policies including 'no idling' & +v
<MootBot> New Topic:  Revisit #ubuntu-ops policies including 'no idling' & +v
<jussi01> So then, I think the discussion has been done on the ML, any further thoughts from people?
<jussi01> Pricey: Daviey around?
<IdleOne> afternoon/evening all
<jussi01> hi IdleOne
<Pici> I'd like to restate that I'd be willing to try out alowing idlers again.
<Gary> evening all
<jussi01> heya Gary
<Tm_T> hi
<jussi01> My thought is Id like to see the introduction of a mirror channel, allowing greater transparency but not interuption.
<Tm_T> I'd say the idlers with reasonable reason is allowed, people who we know
<Gary> Tm_T: thats just was I was trying to verbalise
<jussi01> Tm_T: that becomes to "we like you, so you can hang around"
<LjL> jussi01: how's that different from +mz, +o to ops?
<Tm_T> jussi01: itdoesn't have to
<IdleOne> My two cents are, allowing idlers but I would be fine with a mirror channel
<topyli> i could accept a mirror channel, or moderated idlers. the former seems less work. i'm not sure "selected idlers" would work very well
<Pici> The mirror channel idea makes operators appear even more elitist imo
<jussi01> Pici: how so?
<Tm_T> I don't see how mirror channel differs from public logs
<LjL> Pici: i agree, it seems convoluted for the sake of being so
<jussi01> Tm_T: its instant
<Daviey> jussi01: \o
<Tm_T> jussi01: and we have good reason not to have instant logs, or atleast did
<jussi01> hiya Daviey
<Pici> jussi01: It puts us up on a pedistal, you can see us, but you're not allowed to interact.
<LjL> jussi01: well, *not* being instant was actually seen as a plus at the time, considering that -ops was used by attackers to know what ops were doing in real time.
<LjL> maybe things have changed.
<Tm_T> what LjL said
<Daviey> hey jussi01, nothing has changed in my opinion of have a trial of allowing idlers.
<jussi01> Pici: I guess Ive mistated - the ops would idle in the mirror channel also.
<topyli> LjL, they have not
<jussi01> so you would have a channel for sorting issues and another channel which the ops reside, but not for dispute resolution
<LjL> seems very similar to #ubuntu-ops vs #ubuntu-irc, though not identical
<Tm_T> ...why we don't use -irc for the "ops reside" thing?
<LjL> #ubuntu-irc is free to join, and ops are usually there
<jussi01> it could be as simple as mirroring -ops to -irc
<jussi01> allowing everyone to see whats going on, even interact with the ops if need be, but not allowing everyong to just jump in and give their 2c, troll or whatever else.
<Tm_T> it can be tested, but I don't see much of benefit from it myself (:
<guntbert_> my 2 ct: requiring ops to idle/talk in another channel would  increase stress on the ops
<LjL> jussi01: again though... if (and it's a big if, i'm not siding) you want this kind of thing to be possible, isn't it technically simpler to just have ops +o, the channel +mz, and voice the person who's joining for appeals?
<jussi01> LjL: not really, that adds work to the ops load. a mirror bot is very simple.
<LjL> poor ops :)
<Pici> I think that we should do the following: Trial allowing idlers in #ubuntu-ops.  If that doesn't work out, we move to the mirror channel idea.  If that doesn't work we fall back to what we're doing now and whomever wants to can say "I told you so."
<jussi01> I think there might even be a supybot plugin for it
<jussi01> Pici: I strongly disagree. I think allowing idlers in -ops is a recipe for trouble.
 * Daviey fails to understand why a time limited experiment can't be tested.
<Tm_T> ok, so who are the people who complains -ops being no-idling?
<Daviey> \o
<topyli> if we let idlers in and remove them after, say, a month again, there'll be hell to pay
<LjL> i can say that #gentoo-ops seemed to work fine while i was there while allowing idlers
<Tm_T> Daviey: so, you think anyone should be allowed to idle there?
<Daviey> topyli: Not if policy makes it clear it's a time limited experiment. IMO
<Daviey> Tm_T: I think it's worthy of an experiment, yes
<Tm_T> Daviey: even persistent trolls?
<Pici> I'm willing to try it out.
<topyli> Tm_T, well, trolls aren't allowed anywhere :)
<Daviey> Tm_T: if they cause problems in the channel, like any other channel, it needs to be dealt with.
<Tm_T> Daviey: hmm, so if they behave in -ops, it's ok? roger
<Daviey> Tm_T: makes sense to me.
<Tm_T> thanks for clearing it
<Daviey> I'm not stating it WILL work, but it's something i think should be tested.
<Pici> Daviey: exactly what I'm thinking.
<Tm_T> how we measure success/failure?
<Pici> If only just so I can tell people that we've tried it.
<Daviey> agreed.
<Gary> Tm_T: if we revert back to no idleing after two days, it's failed
<jussi01> but we HAVE tried it! it DIDNT work then, why would it work now?
<Daviey> Tm_T: following the time limited experiement, it's reviewed in a meeting like this - allowing people to raise concerns, and how they felt about it.
<Pici> jussi01: When did we try it?
<Daviey> if it's a resounding failure, then the issue is resolved.. otherwise consider a longer term plan.
<LjL> Pici: before the current policy was instated, i guess :P
<jussi01> Pici: when -ops was first started it was open.
<topyli> i also seem to remember that the no-idle policy was implemented at some point for some reason :)
<Pici> jussi01: That was a very long time ago.
<Tm_T> Daviey: and it's up to ops to say it's success/failure or "all" ?
 * jussi01 has quite clear memories of that time
<Daviey> Tm_T: I would suggest everyone can raise their opinions
<Tm_T> jussi01: I'm too old to remember that far
<IdleOne> jussi01: that was also when the community was a lot smaller and there were less "good" users
<Pici> For the record, I don't think it will work out, but I'
 * Mamarok is strongly against idling, it's a hell to sort out who is in for what reason
<Pici> m willing to give it a shot just to say that we tried.
<Tm_T> Daviey: but who's opinion counts, who has final say?
<Tm_T> Mamarok: agreed
<Mamarok> and there are logs, so there is no idling needed
<Mamarok> for those who want to have a look at how we work
<Daviey> Tm_T: I would suggest it's the IRCC's vote, based on what they have heard in the meeting.
<Tm_T> Daviey: roger, that's clear enough (:
<Mamarok> there very rare moments when we forgot about an idler it usually ended up in them interfering in other cases and adding a lot of nise, maing work almost impossible without removing them
<Mamarok> noise*
<topyli> i sure don't want to confer in -meeting (twice?) about whether or not we're enjoying the idlers
<Daviey> I'm not sure "enjoying" is a term that is related to the issue topyli.
<topyli> Daviey, we should be noticing some benefits, improvements in our work, or similar
<Pici> Mamarok: I agree.  But I don't think that anyone else besides the operators sees that. And if we need to do a trial to prove that to others, than so be it.
<Mamarok> Pici: I shudder at that trial already
<Tm_T> Pici: yeah, I don't like the fact we need to prove it to others, but if that's what is needed...
<Mamarok> also, as jussi01 pointed out, it has been tried and it doidn't work
<Mamarok> didn't
<mc44> It did work
<LjL> mc44 <3
<Pici> It did work.
<Mamarok> aren't there logs available when that was tried last time?
<Daviey> it wasn't really "tried", it just happend.
<mc44> It was stopped because of paranoia
<Daviey> It's how -ops was concieved
<mc44> Not because of any actual problems
<Tm_T> mc44: hmm, like to elaborate?
<Pici> Allowing idlers was how I got to know the op team before I was asked to become an op myself.
<mc44> Tm_T: someone thought someone running a botnet was idling in the channel or something. Turns out they weren't.
<Daviey> The no-ideler policy suddenly appeard without any discussion ISTR.  It was sporadically enforced, which caused more confusion.
<Tm_T> jussi01: slap me when I'm taking too much time in one issue, btw
 * vish would also like to mention in the meeting that the policy of no idling in -ops seems a bit hostile :(   I'm sometimes really frightened to even enter.
<Gary> Pici: and it'd be how we/they get to know each other in the future I'm sure
<Tm_T> mc44: single occasion and then decided?
<LjL> vish: isn't that perhaps more due to how people actually entering -ops are treated?
<mc44> Tm_T: then someone put it in the topic, and it became decided like that story with the monkeys and the hose :p
<jussi01> But the benefits you are highlighting will be acheived with mirroring into -irc, and having the ops idle there, no?
<Tm_T> vish: true, but it doesn't need to be frightening experience, we should handle it better
<vish> LjL: yes , i believe it is more due to the rules that are in place , that forces the ops to keep asking "Is there  anything more you want to mention?"
<Tm_T> jussi01: yes, I think so
<LjL> mc44: hm no i think that time it was a bit more carefully decided than that (although it might still have been paranoia)
<Tm_T> mc44: I don't remember it being that simple decision, though I don't remember much (:
<LjL> vish: fair enough, although one has to consider that any given op isn't *forced* to say that or send people away
<LjL> unless they interpret the policy that way
<mc44> jussi01: Why would you do that? It's just silly and unnecessary and overcomplicated and reflects badly on you and your ability to have calm, reasonable channel
<Pici> It happened after I became an op, but before I knew what was going on (so I don't really remember why)
<Pici> So... Whats next?
<Gary> I don't like the idea of mirroring, it seems (imho) overkill and messy
<Pici> We've spent a half an hour talking about this.
<topyli> are we going to defer this to another meeting or decide something in this one?
<topyli> Pici, thank you
<mc44> just keep delaying it, that should solve the problem :)
<IdleOne> hah
<Tm_T> I really wish we could just get _our_ attitudes and output more friendly and keep the policy & all as they are
<Tm_T> most if not all these problems can be fixed by kind behaviour, I think
<vish> LjL: Tm_T: asking an member , "is there anything more?" in just a few minutes after the conversation finished is just a polite way of saying "get out" ;)  .. maybe its my personal interest , but i would like to be an op some day , and it would probably help me to learn from idling there
<Gary> being ubuntu, we should be able to be more open, friendly etc, try to talk trolls into submition/giving up hope
<Tm_T> vish: that's why I would like to see ops talking in -irc too
<LjL> vish: my point is that i don't see the policy as *forcing* ops to ask "is there anything more?". they could just avoid asking if the person isn't causing any trouble.
<jussi01> vish: but if the channel was mirrored to -irc, why could you not idle there and earn?
<jussi01> learn
<topyli> apart from the historical musings, we have two suggestions. jussi01's mirroring suggestion, and Pici's experiment
<Pici> Whats to lose doing the experiment? Sure, we get some stress, but that already happens. If it doesn't work out, we make a big sign that says
<Pici> We told you so, and we go on with life.
<Tm_T> mirroring would draw moe conversation to -irc, so I think that's a plus
 * Daviey thinks mirroring is less than ideal, and a time limited experiement +1.
<LjL> messy bot output != conversation
<Tm_T> LjL: that's not what I said (:
<vish> jussi01: IMO , it seems a bit of an extra step for an imaginary danger.. the -ops could just have a more stern policy for trolls there..  +1 for trial though :)
<IdleOne> what is to stop trolling in a mirror channel. while we can see what is being said in -ops?
<LjL> a trial seems fine with me anyway.
<jussi01> IdleOne: it doesnt interfere with the process
<topyli> IdleOne, whatever is stopping trolls right now
<Daviey> a mirror channel would simply cause side discussion on peoples comments, making things more complicated for people to follow IMO.
<Tm_T> Daviey: yeah, there's no perfect solution it seems
<IdleOne> my point is that while you are trying to resolve an issue with a user in -ops his friends can come in -irc and start adding their 2 cts and disrupting in a polite sorta trollish way
<Pici> Just like dealing with a troublesome user:  If we unban too early, and the person is still an issue, we re-ban.  If opening up -ops to idlers becomes an issue, then we close it again.
<vish> +1 to Pici :)
<Tm_T> how about opening AND mirroring for a month, we close -ops back if needed, and we stop mirroring if needed
<jussi01> So IF we decided to go with a trial, how would you evaluate a success? failure?
<Daviey> jussi01: i suggested something quite a while ago..
<IdleOne> the success is measured by how well the ops handle the added stress
<Tm_T> jussi01: comments in meeting and IRCC votes finally
<Tm_T> not ideal, but ...
<topyli> Tm_T, that would make the closing process take too long
<Daviey> no, the success is measured by all factors.  Allow everybody to raise issues, and success in a future meeting.  The IRCC can then evaulate based on what they have heard, if they think it's worth running it longer term.
<Tm_T> comments while it goes, and then just closeup and decision in meeting?
<topyli> Daviey's suggestion is better, the ircc makes quick decision once things get nasty
<vish> jussi01: if the open channel is again a trouble, the members can mention the number of trolls/month and decide again over on the meeting
<Pici> We open it to idlers for a limited period of time. Say... 1 month.  Then we close it again, and discuss pros/cons to keeping it open.
<jussi01> yeah, but what constitues actual success?  or failure? because if we did this, we will have the same 6 moth process to close it again.
<Daviey> Pici: That is a great idea, wish i had thought of it?
<Daviey> :)
<Pici> Daviey: I know you said it, just restating it again :)
<Tm_T> what were the benefit from this? shouldn't we measure how those intended benefits goes?
<Pici> Our 'regulars' will understand that we're running a trial, everyone else will have to cope.
<IdleOne> +1 Pici
<IdleOne> and Daviey
<Pici> :)
<Tm_T> I'm still bit lost with the "why" as that determines how we measure success
<vish> just a common doubt , are you guys having any trouble in -ops as of now?  to compare later? how many unnecessary chat do you get? [my guess = 0]
<LjL> vish: you must be kidding! they're blabbering all the time in there ;P
<Daviey> vish: you would have to define "unnecessary chat"
<vish> LjL: nah , i meant others/trolls.. not ops chat :)
<Tm_T> vish: we get interfering audience in time to time (:
<Tm_T> not often, as we tend to make sure it won't happen
<topyli> Tm_T, sure, but we do show them out
<Pici> Tm_T: I think that measuring success will ultimately come to how the new idlers (not our ops) see how much trouble allowing spectators is.
<vish> Daviey: = "the fear that prevents an open -ops"
<topyli> vish, it's not about chat (although that belongs in -ot). it's about interference in actual work
<Pici> So.. I'd like to get at least *one* issue voted on this meeting.
 * Daviey suggests the IRCC put this to a vote shortly.. we aren't getting any headway atm.
<vish> topyli: yup , how much interference do -ops face now?  so that we can compare later :)
<Tm_T> yup, better not let me ask more questions (;
<Pici> vish: low to zero.
<jussi01> [vote] We open it to idlers for a limited period of time.  (1 month).  Then we close it again, and discuss pros/cons to keeping it open.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  We open it to idlers for a limited period of time.  (1 month).  Then we close it again, and discuss pros/cons to keeping it open..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<topyli> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from topyli. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<Pici> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<vish> only ircc council can vote, right?
<jussi01> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<topyli> vish, right
<jussi01> [Endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: -1
<IdleOne> that settles that :)
 * Daviey is disappointed
<Pricey> No I don' think it does.
<Pricey> We only have 3 members out of 5(?) ?
<m4v> shouldn't be 5 votes?
<vish> how is 3 members a quorum?
<IdleOne> Pricey: good cause I am also disappointed
<jussi01> no, tsimpson and nhandler arent here
<topyli> shall we vote for alternative motions such as mirroring?
<Daviey> *sigh*
<Pricey> Daviey: ^5
<jussi01> [topic]Extend ubuntu cloaks to include more information
<MootBot> New Topic: Extend ubuntu cloaks to include more information
<Pici> -1
<jussi01> topyli: we need to wait for ythat vote to close when we receive nhandler and tsimpsons votes
<jussi01> So, the cloaks.
<topyli> okay
<Pici> jussi01: Agreed.
<Pici> Daviey, Pricey : so we won't close that vote until we have 2 more votes on it.
<Pici> What other information did people want to see on cloaks, and why?
<Tm_T> I think jussi01 has core-ops in mind on this
<jussi01> Ok, so my thought was to add an additional field to the ubuntu cloaks, as to make it easy for groups to adminster irc chans etc. (by adding only a mask).
<Daviey> Pici: ok.
<jussi01> this may be @ubuntu/member/kubuntu or @ubuntu/member/core-op etc
<Tm_T> latter I undestand, but what's /kubuntu for ?
<jussi01> It may be good to define what the groups can be in advance
 * LjL shudders
<jussi01> Tm_T: example only
<Tm_T> roger
<jussi01> LjL: why
 * Daviey wouldn't wear a cloak like that.
<ScottK> Seems to me the Ubuntu community is fragmented enough already without adding to it.
<LjL> jussi01: *not* allowing anything but "ubuntu member" in the cloaks was not random, it's a tradition that was stuck too almost with pride
<jussi01> ScottK: to a point, but this makes things a lot easier for administration imho.
<jussi01> LjL: again, why?
<mc44> cloaks are not a tool to make your life easier
<LjL> mc44++
<Pici> mc44: +1
<IdleOne> I don't see the need to further identify what part of the community a user is in. /member/ubuntu is enough. we are all part of the same community, no need to add divisions
<jussi01> cloaks are an identification tool imho.
<LjL> cloaks aren't an identification tool, nickserv accounts are
<ScottK> If this is going to change, I don't think it should be just the IRCC deciding it.
<mc44> yeah, they say "I'm part of this community"
<Pici> ScottK: Oh, I definitely agree with that.
<ScottK> And the community we are a part of is Ubuntu.
 * Daviey wonders how changing cloaks, is that much easier than an LP-api + python cron job to change channel access.
<ScottK> Also I'm affialiated with multiple sub-communities in Ubuntu, can I have multiples?
<Tm_T> jussi01: is there some limits how many single lines can be in access list?
<Pici> ScottK: No, you'd need to choose one
<lifeless> what if you're affiliated with other communities too
<jussi01> Ok, lets stop the cynicism! Ive made a suggestion, let talk about it like adults please!
<jussi01> Tm_T: I dont beleive so.
<ScottK> jussi01: Disagreeing with your suggestion is not "talking about it like adults"
<Daviey> jussi01: i don't think anyone is doing that.
<mc44> jussi01: People are criticising your suggestion, where has anyone made an unadult remark?
<Pici> lifeless: we already allow some dual-cloaks, but we look at them on a case-by-case basis.
<Tm_T> jussi01: so this is for access lists or some other reasons too?
<Tm_T> lifeless: see mine for example
<jussi01> Ok, I dont see any point in wasting any further time on this, its fairly obvious that there is no interest in changing it.
<Tm_T> I do have
<Tm_T> as I do see why this would be helpful for core-ops, though it would label them a bit
<jussi01> Tm_T: Ill think some more on it, and go to the list if I stil feel like its necessary (or you can).
<LjL> and make it seem like an attempt to give core ops more prestige than other groups in ubuntu, since cloaks are also obviously a matter of personal pride more often than not
<Tm_T> jussi01: please do, I'm not good explaining things (:
<topyli> well, i would be uncomfortable entering ubuntu channels wearing a cloak adorned with titles
<jussi01> [topic] Discuss general attitude for -ops, how we are expected to behave
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss general attitude for -ops, how we are expected to behave
<Tm_T> LjL: or get them as a target too, it's two-way street
<jussi01> Moving on.
<Tm_T> topyli: true that
<Pici> ubuntu/member/topyli/smoothoperator
<Tm_T> Pici: wrong order (:
 * Pici moves on
<topyli> :)
<Tm_T> +1 for more effort to have kind and friendly attitude, being a good example
<IdleOne> ubuntu/member/mycloakisbetterthenyours/nick
<jussi01> Tm_T: absolutely. but how do we acheive that.
<Pici> Tm_T: award custom cloaks for good operators
 * Pici hides
 * jussi01 sits on Pici
<LjL> not asking people who come to -ops to help or give hints and such whether they've got "anything else" 5 seconds after they've stopped speaking would be a good start in my opinion
<Tm_T> LjL: +1
<Pici> LjL: Agreed.
<Tm_T> basic rule, if you cannot keep your temper, atleast keep hands off of keyboard
<Gary> remember that ops are also users, we are all human
<vish> discussing attitude , is a bit misleading with the no-idlers policy.  since how does one measure the time limit?
<Daviey> (except Gary, which is a superhero)
<guntbert> one possibility: make it a habit to use the nick of the people you talk to in -ops too - prevents the feeling "they are talking over my head"
<Tm_T> vish: I think "when ops feel them as disturbance"
<IdleOne> Gary: agreed, you also agreed to be a op, leader in the community and in that respect I believe that it is your responsibility to set the example
<vish> Tm_T: thats again allowing idlers ;)
<Tm_T> vish: only a bit
<Tm_T> vish: you cannot idle long there without being disturbance for example, me
 * Tm_T hides
<vish> asking a member "anything else" at any point of time _is_ rude ?  [when member has not disrupted anything of course]
<Gary>  IdleOne and I do, I am here with my -offtopic op hat on, just because I might also have a staff hat, I am still a user of both -offtopic and many other channels, being a op or staff makes little difference to that fact and I try to treat everyone the same
<vish> which is again basically allowing idlers , so this is an oxymoron to discuss the attitude   :)
<vish> topyli: jussi01: just wanted to mention/remind again , that the -irc is an open channel but there isnt much interruption to work there. so... hope you guys reconsider the trial :)
<Tm_T> vish: no it's not rude automatically
<IdleOne> Gary: I used the term you as an example I did not mean to single you out if I did I do apologize
<LjL> well, it does come across as, if not entirely rude, a bit offputting, in all honesty.
<Gary> IdleOne: not a problem, I re-read what I said and what you said, :-)
<IdleOne> :)
<Tm_T> LjL: so how we ask if they need more assistance?
<topyli> we should be patient enough to explain why we're asking
<IdleOne> +1 topyli
<vish> Tm_T: the member will ask if they need.. , it is the policy which is making the ops ask the question;)
<topyli> which is a drag since we're going to do it time and time again, but for them it's the first time
<Gary> hey there Tm_T, how are you doing, as we have a no idling policy we do request that people refrain from sitting idle here, but if their is anything more I can do for you please ask, thanks
 * topyli aliases that
<jussi01> I think we need to remind operators just that, its a users first time in -ops (usually). Dont expect them to know the rules by osmosis
<Gary> (but with less typo's)
<LjL> Tm_T: well, i guess it's for a reason that reopening -ops was considered just minutes ago! ;) but anyway, my suggestion is to 1) delay asking, don't run the risk of asking too soon, 2) be varied. don't adhere to a protocol. treat each individual personally, come up with something to tell to *that* individual. like "now, i should ask you to leave if you don't have anything else to ask, because that's the rule in this channel". if it's long, well i'm sure
<guntbert> vish: are you distinguishing between ubuntu-members and other users?
<LjL> no one will die of RSI out of it
<vish> Gary: that is still a polite "get out" you have no business her ;)
<vish> guntbert: nope :)
<Gary> vish: but at least it is polite
<vish> s/her/here
<Gary> not sure what else to suggest if the no idle policyt stays
<Tm_T> Gary: I like that
<vish> Gary: there is no way of being polite and telling some one to leave , which is why this discussion is an oxymoron +*
<Tm_T> and I think LjL is saying pretty much the same
<Gary> vish: yeah
<IdleOne> vish: taking the time to explain the rule is better then saying "this is the rule" get out
<Myrtti> ohai
 * Gary tickles Myrtti 
<Myrtti> where are we on the agenda?
<LjL> Tm_T: mine was just an example though, the key of what i was saying is, make an effort to come up with something each time rather than acting according to a protocol (which eventually makes people think you're a drone)
<LjL> and what IdleOne said
<Gary> Myrtti: being more polite to peeps I think
<topyli> i think we all just need a general niceness reminder, there's nothing to decide really
<topyli> +1 to being nice
<IdleOne> +1
<vish> IdleOne: then the question arises why is the policy ? ;)    the user will say i havent disrupted anything...    I'd rather hope the policy is to mention the policy only to the disrupting members
<jussi01> Peoples, This is intended to be a 1 hour meeting, and I have another place to be, so I will need to end the meeting now. However, I have no issues with you all continuing to talk.
<Tm_T> can we slap fellow ops if they fail to be nice?
<IdleOne> also keep in mind that because of language barriers sometimes an explanation of a rule might come off as rude
<jussi01> [endmeeting]
<topyli> Tm_T, we must
<IdleOne> so be nice, add a :) make sure that the user does not leave feeling like they got pushed out the door
<topyli> but it has to be a very nice slap!
<hyperair> isn't it #endmeeting?
<Tm_T> topyli: thanks, I will slap and then hug (;
<topyli> <3
<vish> jussi01: the bot hasnt ended the meeting..
<Pici> #endmeetig
<Pici> #endmeeting
<IdleOne> vish: the idling policy has not been decided yet, till then the rule is to not allow idlers.
<IdleOne> afaik
<vish> Pici: i think the chair is the only one who can do that  , so jussi01
<Pici> vish: aye
<topyli> i'm poking him with a mighty poke, perhaps he left already
<jussi01> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:11.
<topyli> yay :)
<vish> \o/
<IdleOne> in any case. I think that topyli is correct and a be polite policy should always come first
<Tm_T> IdleOne: agreed
<Tm_T> I know I'm not always nice, and would love to hear when I'm not
<Gary> I'm always nice :-)
<Tm_T> you're always Gary
<IdleOne> Tm_T: allow me to idle in -ops and I will be glad to poke you when you are not always nice :)
<dutchie> x9=
<vish> Tm_T: me too ;D
<vish> Tm_T: why not have "interns" and allow them to idle ?
<jpds> vish: #ubuntu-irc-helpers if for that.
<IdleOne> ohhh, me@intern/ubuntu
<IdleOne> +1 vish
<Myrtti> party is over, move on
<IdleOne> hahah k :/
<CrashOverride> meeting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-21
<dholbach> good morning
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-22
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * pitti waves
<kees> \o
<cjwatson> no Keybuk (we should really rearrange the meeting time; what's that blocked on)?
<sabdfl> hello folks
<sabdfl> i'm unexpectedly present
<cjwatson> sabdfl: oh, hello, can you chair then? :)
<sabdfl> but only briefly :-(
<kees> neat
<kees> oh
<sabdfl> weeeeeell
<cjwatson> maybe not, if only briefly
<sabdfl> can chair the first 30 minutes, not sure that's good enough
<mdz> cjwatson, I can if it's not convenient for you
<kees> sabdfl: if only briefly, we should cover meeting time change and bug 374900 at the front
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 374900 in faac (Ubuntu) "Libfaac not LGPL" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/374900
<mdz> sounds good to me
<sabdfl> i don't have much to add to the time change
<sabdfl> if it's good for mdz, it's good for me
<pitti> what was the doodle URL again?
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Meeting times
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting times
<kees> http://www.doodle.com/44mg7x3e84qtqahw
<pitti> ah, http://www.doodle.com/44mg7x3e84qtqahw
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.doodle.com/44mg7x3e84qtqahw
<cjwatson> sorry, I need to fill that in
<cjwatson> if sabdfl can take over chairing, I can do that right now
<sabdfl> sure
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:03.
<cjwatson> thanks
<kees> cjwatson: if you can do UTC 1800 on thursday, we can short-circuit it.
<sabdfl> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:04. The chair is sabdfl.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<sabdfl> [TOPIC]  Meeting times
<MootBot> New Topic:   Meeting times
<pitti> right, that seems to be the only time where all of us have no red
<cjwatson> argh, how do I provide a name on that doodle?
<sabdfl> "Your name"?
<cjwatson> oh yes, hidden off to the left :)
<cjwatson> submitted mine.  1800 on Thu is kind of sucky but tolerable.
<kees> I think it's literally the only non-red time.
<sabdfl> ok, proposal: Thurs 8pm UTC
<cjwatson> 8pm is worse for me
<kees> mdz: but you need to change the alternating week?
<mdz> sabdfl, that is significantly worse according to the doodle
<kees> sabdfl: 6pm not 8pm. 1800
<sabdfl> [VOTE] Proposal: Thursday 1800 UTC
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Proposal: Thursday 1800 UTC.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> kees, 1800 UTC is fine for me
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pitti> +1
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<sabdfl> (sorry, i was looking at South African times)
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<sabdfl> [/VOTE]
<sabdfl> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<sabdfl> [AGREED] Thursday 1800 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Thursday 1800 UTC
<mdz> someone needs an action to update the calendar etc.
<soren> So this is just until DST starts kicking in, right?
<kees> soren: 1800 UTC. no DST
<mdz> last I checked it was pinned to UTC
<sabdfl> it kicks in differently in different places
<soren> sabdfl: Exactly my concern.
<mdz> it's marginally less confusing that way
<kees> soren: that's why we moved it to UTC a few months back.
<cjwatson> and the UK is currently talking about moving to CET :-/
<kees> mdz: who has access to the calendar?
<mdz> kees, I think all of us except scott
<mdz> yep
<kees> I'll take it then to learn where it is.
<soren> I understand it's less confusing. It's just that this time slot is right next to a bunch of red. Once everyone's clock moves by an hour..
<soren> But I guess that's a problem for a couple of months from now :)
<mdz> [action] kees to update the calendar with the new meeting time
<sabdfl> they can't possibly move to CET. I just concessioned a coconut farm because it was on UTC!
<sabdfl> [action] kees to update the calendar with the new meeting time
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees to update the calendar with the new meeting time
<pitti> cjwatson: we have become good at providing tzdata updates.. :)
<sabdfl> next topic? the bug?
<mdz> y
<sabdfl> [TOPIC] Launchpad bug 374900 in faac (Ubuntu) "Libfaac not LGPL"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Launchpad bug 374900 in faac (Ubuntu) "Libfaac not LGPL"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 374900 in faac (Ubuntu) "Libfaac not LGPL" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/374900
<kees> (soren: it's only red for mdz, afaict the time would just move later not earlier, yes?)
<soren> kees: Yes, you're right.
<mdz> so as of the last meeting, it seemed like the status was that kees felt there was likely an issue
<mdz> "it looks pretty clearly like the encoder package need to be removed"
<kees> based on the bug, year
<kees> er, yeah
<mdz> Colin had the ball, but has had higher priority work and hadn't gotten to it yet
<cjwatson> I originally took an action for this, but sunk into a pit of despair; it's one of those where users are clamouring for it, but I saw mails (which I can't find now) from copyright holders of LGPLed code saying they felt it to be an infringement
<mdz> the bug really needs a summary update
<cjwatson> and I got stuck in "oh god I don't want to deal with this", for which I apologise
<cjwatson> the bug is full of confusion between redistributability and software-patents
<mdz> well, one could argue that this is not a technical issue, but I don't know who we'd give it to
<sabdfl> i can relate! but if we tease out the patent issues, is there a genuine licensing issue?
<mdz> if a copyright holder feels there is, then likely yes
<cjwatson> my understanding is that there is a licensing issue for anything GPLed that links to ffmpeg
<cjwatson> I'm not sure about for ffmpeg itself in isolation
<cjwatson> AFAICS there shouldn't be a problem with linking code under that licence with LGPLed code
<mdz> the license at the top of tns.c is rather ambiguous
<mdz> if you could even call it a license
<cjwatson> in comment 13, james_w says "due to the conflict between the LGPL and this license"
<cjwatson> I can't see the conflict; you can link LGPLed code with practically anything, by design
<cjwatson> unless I'm misunderstandidng
<mdz> "The original developer retains
<mdz> full right to use the code for his/her own purpose, assign or donate
<mdz> the code to a third party and to inhibit third party from using the
<mdz> code"
<mdz> that last bit about inhibiting third parties from using the code doesn't sound ideal
<cjwatson> it certainly can't go to main/universe with that licence
<mdz> right, but it's already in multiverse
<sabdfl> no, but then we haven't heard from the developer, and every indication is that they have no objection to its use in conforming products
<mdz> the conflict is attributed to "#gnu"
<cjwatson> (certainly can't> field of endeavour restriction)
<sabdfl> you can understand why they would write something like that, after shallow analysis "we are making this available to help further the standard not fragment it"
<cjwatson> I can understand it but that doesn't mean it meets our guidelines for main/universe :)
<mdz> so the claimed issue is that libfaac may be GPL-incompatible?
<mdz> not LGPL-incompatible
<sabdfl> cjwatson: agreed
<cjwatson> I don't think that's the *claimed* issue in the bug, but that's the only one I can tease out
<cjwatson> which suggests to me that libfaac should remain in multiverse and we should audit to ensure that nothing under the GPL links to it
<mdz> I think the initial "LGPL-incompatible" may be a typo; I don't see any supporting evidence
<cjwatson> ?
<mdz> cjwatson, that's my preliminary assessment
<mdz> cjwatson, also, the copyright file may be wrong
<mdz> yes, the copyright file is wrong
<mdz> (incomplete)
<mdz> it says GPL
<mdz> but COPYING is the LGPL
<mdz> and some files have other licenses as shown in the bug
<mdz> I don't know if there is actually any GPL code in it
<mdz> so:
<mdz> - stays in universe
<mdz> - copyright file gets fixed
<cjwatson> *stays in multiverse
<mdz> cjwatson, yes, sorry
<mdz> and
<mdz> - handled as GPL-incompatible
<mdz> does that cover it?
<kees> sounds reasonable to me
<cjwatson> I think so
<sabdfl> i don't think we need to vote
<sabdfl> can i document that as agreed?
<mdz> let's put it in the bug and see if anything comes back
<mdz> since we're not entirely sure that we understood the whole issue
<sabdfl> [ACTION] mdz to update the bug with a proposed handling
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to update the bug with a proposed handling
<sabdfl> [TOPIC] Any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
<Laney> can someone action the DMB changes?
<mdz> sabdfl, there are outstanding actions from the last meeting which were skipped over to get to the meeting time discussion early
<pitti> Laney: which ones?
<sabdfl> ok. can I hand over to another chair?
<sabdfl> rather than ending and restarting the meeting, we could trade nicks ;-)
<mdz> that would be more confusing
 * cjwatson doesn't want sabdfl's private messages :-P
<sabdfl> but entertaining :-)
<Laney> pitti: there was an election, and now are new members that need adding to the team
<sabdfl> [ENDMEETING]
<sabdfl> thanks all
<cjwatson> sabdfl: "#endmeeting"
<sabdfl> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:32.
<sabdfl> thanks again :-)
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:32. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> I'll take over then
 * kees hopes that mootbot looks at more than just nick
<cjwatson> so yes, there was a DMB election; I'll just dig up the log
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/14/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:16
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/14/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:16
<cjwatson> the effect of this is that Iain Lane and Mackenzie Morgan replace Soren Hansen and Colin Watson
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] DMB changes
<MootBot> New Topic:  DMB changes
<cjwatson> if there are no objections, I can make those changes to the LP team
<cjwatson> oh, there are expired members too; Emmet Hikory, Michael Bienia, StÃ©phane Graber, and Cody Somerville should be reinstated
<pitti> I thought their memberships were temporarily extended
<mdz> cjwatson, my action above is done: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/374900/comments/39
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 374900 in faac (Ubuntu) "Libfaac not LGPL" [High,Triaged]
<cjwatson> pitti: they were, until the last DMB meeting :)
<kees> mdz: oh, you meant the canonical calendar? what about the fridge?
<mdz> kees, it's on the Ubuntu Engineering calendar, with an invitation extended to the fridge calendar (so it's the same event)
<mdz> CIVS results are at http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?id=E_924ef5b8e9f6d03b
<mdz> I see no reason why cjwatson should not go ahead and update LP with those results
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to update LP in light of DMB election
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to update LP in light of DMB election
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<cjwatson> mdz - Review ubuntu-drivers membership and make sure it includes (only) people who need to manage blueprints
<mdz> so the members are:
<mdz> Alexander Sack
<mdz> Canonical Ubuntu QA Team
<mdz> Colin Watson
<mdz> David Barth
<mdz> David Mandala
<mdz> Joshua Hoover
<mdz> Kate Stewart
<mdz> Mark Shuttleworth
<mdz> Pete Graner
<mdz> Robbie Williamson
<mdz> Sebastien Bacher
<mdz> Steve Langasek
<mdz> Ubuntu Technical Board
<mdz> UDS Organizers
<mdz> the only one which looks out of place to me is the QA team
<mdz> removing the QA team will have the side effect that they will no longer be able to change the bug reporting guidelines for Ubuntu as a whole
<mdz> (though they will continue to be able to update package-specific guidelines)
<kees> mdz: I don't have permissions to change that calendar. "You can: See all event details"
<mdz> the bug for that is apparently https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/703002
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 703002 in Launchpad itself "distributions have no +configure-bugtracker link" [Low,Triaged]
<mdz> kees, fixed
<mdz> the last time I asked bdmurray, he said it would probably be best if we didn't do it until that is fixed
<mdz> some of the memberships are redundant and could be cleaned up, e.g. Colin and Mark are in TB
<pitti> mdz: "didn't do" -> "keep CQA team"? I agree
<mdz> pitti, right
<pitti> mdz: I'd rather keep them in explicitly
<pitti> in case Colin ever loses his TB hat, he'd still be an ubuntu-driver due to him being a tech lead
<cjwatson> I also generally feel that it should be explicit that some people have those privileges in their own right
<cjwatson> (why doesn't pitti have that hat, incidentally?)
<pitti> I'm in uds-organizers, I think
<cjwatson> ah
<pitti> as I prepared the karmic and lucid UDS desktop bits
<mdz> most engineering managers are members via uds-organizers as well
<mdz> anyway I think this action is as done as it can be
<pitti> I think so, too; it looks reasonable enough to me, modulo some minor inconsistency/redundancy
<mdz> cjwatson, given we already made the other changes and nobody has complained of breakage, I think we can skip the announcement
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> well, skaet had one complaint
<cjwatson> she can't edit milestones in stable releases (any more?)
<cjwatson> but this is blocked on getting that LP bug fixed
<kees> (cjwatson: I've updated the calendar entry now, so that can be marked as "done")
<mdz> cjwatson, which releases?
<mdz> can't we just make sure the release manager is set appropriately for those series?
<cjwatson> lucid.  no, because that would remove the ability of ubuntu-core-dev to target bugs to that release, until such time as that LP bug is fixed.
<cjwatson> kees: thanks
<mdz> cjwatson, which LP bug?
<cjwatson> I don't have it to hand; it should be in the records of our discussion in Dallas
<bdmurray> actually the problem with removing the CQA team from ubuntu-drivers is that we wouldn't be able to approve bug nominations for releases
<cjwatson> so that's the same bug
<cjwatson> we identified it in Dallas and raised it through Jono Lange
<pitti> bug 451390 I think
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451390 in Launchpad itself "limited upload rights no longer give series nomination accept/decline rights" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451390
<cjwatson> thanks, that's the one
<pitti> mdz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadPermissions has the summary, FYI
<mdz> pitti, yeah, i was just looking at that
<mdz> series RM = ubuntu-core-dev doesn't sound right, since that excludes skaet
<cjwatson> mdz: it's a workaround for bug 451390
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451390 in Launchpad itself "limited upload rights no longer give series nomination accept/decline rights" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451390
<cjwatson> essentially
<cjwatson> that series RM setting dates back a long way, and was to ensure that core-dev could target bugs
<pitti> mdz: that's what "what we would like to do" changes
<pitti> mdz: indeed it's not right
<mdz> pitti, can you reference 451390 in 174375?
<cjwatson> once core-dev can target bugs via their upload privileges, we will no longer need that workaround
<cjwatson> until then, we need it
<mdz> pitti, oh right
<mdz> so 174375 just needs a comment to that effect and then we are back to wait mode
<pitti> mdz: will do
<cjwatson> 451390 is not the CQA problem, although it's sort of similar
<mdz> pitti, thanks much
<cjwatson> bdmurray: is there a bug for giving CQA that access without requiring them to be in ubuntu-drivers?
<mdz> cjwatson, I understood bug 703002 to be that bug, though it is not at all obvious by looking at it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 703002 in Launchpad itself "distributions have no +configure-bugtracker link" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/703002
<mdz> this is based on the logs from the last meeting where bdmurray pointed to that bug
<bdmurray> cjwatson: no, my thought has been that there would be a release-manager team set as the release-manager and CQA would be part of that team
<mdz> 08-02-2011 15:51:46 < bdmurray!~bdmurray@vinyl.outflux.net: its bug 703002
<mdz> 08-02-2011 15:51:47 < kees!~kees@ubuntu/member/keescook: bdmurray: ah, excellent. that was my memory too; do you have the bug # handy?
<pitti> mdz: (done)
<bdmurray> mdz: that bug 703002 is something that can't happen now that the owner of Ubuntu was set to the tech board
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 703002 in Launchpad itself "distributions have no +configure-bugtracker link" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/703002
<mdz> bdmurray, gah, so I've confused things further in the bug
<cjwatson> ok, we could add CQA to ubuntu-release, I expect
<cjwatson> once 451390 is fixed so that we can actually use ubuntu-release in that slot
<cjwatson> so that means that 451390 really is the blocker for everything
<bdmurray> I agree - 703002 is just rather inconvenient
<mdz> ok, someone who understands what's going on please update the bug. I am obviously hopeless
<cjwatson> done
<cjwatson> let's move on
<cjwatson> Action: pitti to update g-s-t for new ntp pool
<pitti> done
<pitti> jdstrand's part as well
<pitti> the Narwhal has a better watch now
<kees> heh
<cjwatson> gotta have a funny-shaped watch
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<cjwatson> I looked, didn't see anything we haven't already covered
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<cjwatson> only the two we've covered
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
 * mdz starts dialing into his next meeting
<cjwatson> I've applied the DMB changes to LP now
<cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members
 * cjwatson is freeeeeeeee
<kees> haha
<SpamapS> o/
<cjwatson> next chair?
<kees> cjwatson: keybuk?
<cjwatson> either me (if this one didn't count), or kees by nick rotation, or Keybuk by frequency
<cjwatson> perhaps Keybuk with the new meeting time
<pitti> the last ones rotated between kees, cjwatson, and me, so I'll be fallback if Keybuk can't
<cjwatson> let's ask Keybuk in the minutes
<kees> sounds good
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:02.
<kirkland> o/
<cjwatson> getting out of the server team's way
<cjwatson> thanks all
<pitti> thanks everyone
<zul> hi
<ttx> \o
<kirkland> #startmeeting
<Laney> cjwatson: can you approve my DMB ML subscription too?
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is kirkland.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<smoser> o/
<kirkland> howdy all
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smb> evening
<cjwatson> Laney: no, I passed the keys for that to persia
<Daviey> o/
<kirkland>  * zul to send e-mail to ubuntu-server ML requesting help for testing 10.04.2 ISOs
<jamespage> o/
<hggdh> sorry for the delay, latests natty updates killed my laptop
<kirkland> hggdh: no worries, just getting started now
<zul> not done...it had to be kind of adhoc
<kirkland> zul: ?
<kirkland> zul: okay, no point in carrying though
<kirkland> zul: as 10.04.2 is out
<kirkland> zul: unless you want to get a headstart on asking for 10.04.3 testing?  :-)
<zul> meh
<Daviey> lol
<kirkland> hrm
<kirkland> looks like RoAkSoAx has not updated the agenda ....
 * kirkland will need to wing it
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<kirkland> robbiew: ?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<robbiew> burn downs look good...bug count is fine
<robbiew> forge ahead
<robbiew> ;)
<SpamapS> FF on Thursday right?
<robbiew> yup
<robbiew> if you think you need an FFE...talk to skaet
<SpamapS> What features have we added this go 'round? I think we've done a lot in universe
<Daviey> We are actually looking pretty good on upstream versions we care about i think
<hggdh> warwarning to the adventurous: current ISO will not install
<Daviey> The two i was watching was libvirt and multipath-tools
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<Daviey> hallyn is cracking them out.
<hallyn> yup
 * zul is doing a couple of merges today
 * SpamapS may attempt to finish an erlang merge today or tomorrow
<zul> php5/apache/mysql
<SpamapS> zul: want to review/sponsor that for me tomorrow?
<kirkland> cool
<zul> SpamapS: sure
<kirkland> anything else related to natty, or FeatureFreeze?
<zul> i have a couple of reviews that people want me to do on the list as well
<Daviey> Hmm
<Daviey> Currently daily, is not good.
<Daviey> cjwatson is on the case AIUI.
<hggdh> bug 723148
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 723148 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Natty server ISO images fail to install" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/723148
<Daviey> thassim
<Daviey> for us, i think we can consider it transitional
<hggdh> yes, should (I hope) be resolved today
<kirkland> cool
<kirkland> so moving along ...
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<kirkland> repeating last week:
<kirkland> SCALE9x - Feb 25 - 27, Los Angeles (ClintByrum attending, DustinKirkland presenting)
<kirkland> UKUUG Spring Conference - 22-24 March, ttx attending, talking OpenStack (and Ubuntu Server).
<kirkland> anything else new to mention?
<kirkland> perhaps UDS-O in Budapest?
<SpamapS> I had a talk accepted at the MySQL UC in April.. but thats eons away
<zul> oooh about what?
<SpamapS> "Run Drizzle on Your Narwhal"
<kirkland> May 9-13
<kirkland> Sp4rKy: that's cool
<kirkland> okay
<SpamapS> < 3 months to figure out O .. which should be the alpha for server-P ;)
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<kirkland> hggdh: howdy, sir
<hggdh> last two weeks have been sort of weird, with kernel SRU tests, and 10.04.2 (also tests)
<hggdh> so not much on the front
<hggdh> except that Hudson -- er, Jenkins -- is cranking pretty good
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: you putting together the test-rig today for euca/powernap thingy?
<kirkland> hggdh: great to hear about Hudkins
<hggdh> RoAkSoAx: I will try, but I am not sure I can install anything there, no ISO will install
<SpamapS> hggdh: jhunt and I want to add some automated tests to the list for testing upstart job interaction.. I think we'll have to wait for UDS to fully spec it out tho
<SpamapS> Hudkins.. lol
<jamespage> nice
<hggdh> SpamapS: this would be marvelous. I think, right now, my official laptop is dead on an upstart issue
<Daviey> hggdh, please don't touch the two boxes with short m names without pinging me.
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: no worries, just let me know whenever its ready. I'm pretty sure what are the issues if they are powernap's side
<hggdh> RoAkSoAx: fantastic, and willco
<kirkland> hggdh: anything else?
<hggdh> kirkland: no, this is it
<kirkland> thanks
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<kirkland> smb: howdy, sir
<smb> kirkland, Hello sir
<smb> Well actually not much newish from my side
<kirkland> smb: anything worth mentioning?
<kirkland> or, does anyone have questions for the kernel team?
<smb> Currently trying to check up on some xfs regression
<smb> Otherwise the things from last week wait for confirmation or me getting back to them
<hallyn> xfs regressions?  is there a bug#?
<smb> bug 692848
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 692848 in linux (Ubuntu) "Regression between 2.6.32-27 and 2.6.32-26 xfsdump SGI_FS_BULKSTAT errno = 22" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/692848
<smb> possibly affects older releases as well
<smb> but I failed on re-creating the failure
<hallyn> thx
<smb> so it is a bit hard to say
<SpamapS> smb: did we give up on reproducing the NFS issue?
<smb> SpamapS, Which of the many?
<SpamapS> bug 661294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661294 in linux (Ubuntu) "System lock-up when receiving large files (big data amount) from NFS server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<smb> We had failures on receiving large files, sending large files and I think other as well.
<SpamapS> bug does seem a bit stalled as those affected have worked around it by bandwidth limiting their connections
<smb> SpamapS, I think I asked in that bug about experience on a test kernel
<SpamapS> Oh right :)
<SpamapS> ok .. carry on.
<kirkland> smb: cool, thanks, anything else?
 * smb is done. :)
<kirkland> thanks
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<kirkland> doesn't look like sommer is around
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<kirkland> anything here?
<kim0> hey
<kirkland> kim0: howdy
<kim0> We've got two new contributing members
<Daviey> \o/
<kim0> following the JEos
<SpamapS> \o/
<kirkland> kim0: cool
<Daviey> kim0, names?
<kim0> QA needs
<kim0> um, I forwarded to robbiew and marjo
<kim0> I can get the names later
 * Daviey drinks the jeos
<kim0> hehe
<Daviey> kim0, Oh aye, thanks!
<kim0> also we've kickstarted a project
<kim0> for migrating UEC images
<kim0> across AWS regions
<kim0> that's being driven by a community member
<Daviey> kim0, were they are result of you blogging?
<kim0> let me get a quick link
<kim0> yes
<Daviey> super
<Daviey> So blogging seems more successful than the mailing list, perhaps
<kim0> https://code.launchpad.net/~abd4lla/ec2-migrate-ebs-ami/ec2-migrate-ebs-ami
<kim0> I'm shuffling "https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC/Images#preview" as we speak
<kim0> to make it easier on the eye
<smoser> kim0, woot!
<kim0> that's mostly it
<kim0> smoser: let me know if it looks better now .. still needs more polish though
<smoser> well, it certainliy could'nt look worse, now could it
<kim0> tried grouping by what the user wants to do
<kim0> public cloud
<kim0> private cloud
<kim0> local hypervisor
<kim0> make your own images
<kim0> and split too advanced usage
<kim0> on their own pages
<kim0> let me know if you think it needs siginificant restructuring
<kim0> otherwise .. I'll polish it some more
<kirkland> sweet
<kim0> for instance that huge graphic needs to be resized :)
<kirkland> kim0: anything else?
<kim0> nope thnx
<kirkland> cool
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<kirkland> let's have it
<Daviey> nothing here
<SpamapS> Keep on rockin in the free world :)
 * RoAkSoAx wondering if anyone has any solutions for dual external monitors
<kirkland> sweet
<kirkland> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<kirkland>     Tuesday, March 1 2011 16:00 UTC
<kirkland> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:28.
<smb> kirkland, efficient driving :)
<SpamapS> kirkland: thanks!
<kirkland> smb: heh
<JFo> o/
<flag> o/
<kamal> o/
<smb> \o
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (8 bugs, 10 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 3 Milestoned Bugs (56 across all packages (up 2)) ====
<JFo>  * 4 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (265 across all packages (up 19)) ====
<JFo>  * 23 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 7 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Maverick Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 72 Linux Bugs (up 17)
<JFo> ==== Lucid Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 94 Linux Bugs (up 1)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:98 (down 4) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> nothing current to report
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Lots of tidying up
<cking> 0.22.00 now in Natty universe
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<bjf> The Kernel Team's SRU report has moved out to a more publicly accessible location: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> ..
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Last week all open fixes for all kernels were verified. This means that we're now
<sconklin> || in the Testing phase of the kernel SRU process. There are two reported regressions
<sconklin> || in Maverick which are being investigated. They are:
<sconklin> || https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/721213
<sconklin> || https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/722747
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 721213 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Regression: ThinkVantage key on a T61 laptop stopped working in 2.6.35-27.47" [High,Triaged]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 722747 in linux (Ubuntu) "Touchpad enable/disable hotkey broken in 2.6.35-27" [Critical,Triaged]
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Lucid and Maverick will receive testing from Certification and QA. We need testing from users
<sconklin> || for all other kernels, to at least insure that they boot and run. If you boot any of these kernels,
<sconklin> || please update the tracking bug for that kernel with the results. Tracking bugs can be found here:
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/reports/sru-report.html
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<ara> o/
<ara> We will be starting testing this week (tomorrow) the kernels for Maverick and Lucid
<ara> We will finish and report back before March 1st
<ara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<jjohansen> - took a bit of a detour last week with tyler exploring compression of filenames
<jjohansen> still waiting on full review
<jjohansen> ..
<tgardner> o/
<bjf> tgardner, go
<tgardner> we've definitely decided to postpoone long file names until after 11.04 ?
<jjohansen> tgardner: I believe so, dustin thinks its the way to go too
<tgardner> apw, not sure if I saw that in the wiki page updates
<apw> tgardner, will check into it
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<jjohansen> tgardner: I believe it was left open pending upstream review, in case it did happen
<apw> The natty kernel is now at v2.6.38-4.31 (v2.6.38-rc5 based).  We have just rebased to v2.6.38-rc6 and uploaded, this should be in the archive before feature freeze. Overall we have most of our development out of the way, with just the ecryptfs long filename work ongoing.  We are currently concentrating on bug squashing for Natty.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<sconklin> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || dapper   linux-source-2.6.15               || 2.6.15-55.91         || 2.6.15-55.93         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || hardy    linux                             || 2.6.24-28.81         || 2.6.24-28.86         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || karmic   linux-fsl-imx51                   || 2.6.31-112.28        || 2.6.31-112.30        ||    1 ||        1 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-ec2                         || 2.6.31-307.23        || 2.6.31-307.27        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.31-22.70         || 2.6.31-22.73         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || lucid    linux-ec2                         || 2.6.32-312.24        || 2.6.32-313.26        ||    8 ||        6 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.32.28.21         || 2.6.32.29.22         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    || 2.6.32-211.27        || 2.6.32-214.30        ||    6 ||        6 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               || 2.6.32.209.12        || 2.6.32.214.15        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-lts-backport-maverick       || 2.6.35-23.41~lucid1  || 2.6.35-25.44~lucid1  ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.32.28.32         || 2.6.32.29.34         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.34.3               || 1.34.4               ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.32-28.55         || 2.6.32-29.58         ||    6 ||        6 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-fsl-imx51                   || 2.6.31-608.20        || 2.6.31-608.22        ||    1 ||        1 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.32    || 2.6.32-28.27         || 2.6.32-29.28         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-ec2                    || 2.6.32.312.13        || 2.6.32.313.14        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || maverick linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.35.25.19         || 2.6.35.27.21         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    ||                      || 2.6.32-414.30        ||    4 ||        4 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               ||                      || 2.6.32.414.4         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.38.3               || 1.38.4               ||    1 ||        1 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.35-25.44         || 2.6.35-27.47         ||   13 ||       13 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.35    || 2.6.35-25.16         || 2.6.35-27.18         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.35.25.32         || 2.6.35.27.34         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo>  180 Natty Bugs (up 11)
<JFo>  1185 Maverick Bugs (up 33)
<JFo>  1019 Lucid Bugs (up 6)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 39 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 77 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 7 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 70 natty bugs (not tracked yet)
<JFo>   * 237 maverick bugs (up 9)
<JFo>   * 208 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 38 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 1 natty bugs (down 2)
<JFo>   * 2 maverick bugs (down 4)
<JFo>   * 0 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Today is Bug Day. We are looking at bugs in the new state. I'd like to ae another Bug Day next week covering Confirmed bugs. I'll post details to the mailing lists and our voices blog. I've also added twitter notices to my list of announcements for Bug Days, so far we have had a more positive response to this than I expected.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> nothing to report.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:12.
<JFo> thanks bjf :)
<kamal> thanks bjf - lightning quick :-)
<jdstrand> o/
<micahg> o/
<nxvl> o/
<jdstrand> the ubuntu-security team (and friends) is going to have a quick meeting to make up for yesterday
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:13. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<sbeattie> o/
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> o/
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of any previous action items
<jdstrand> We didn't have any specific ones. I know sbeattie has been working on apparmor upstream releases and they are basically done
<jdstrand> (that was a previous action item)
<mdeslaur> kees keyword highlight bomb: security hack rootkit virus
<jdstrand> \o/
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I tested amd64 builds of firefox and xul this week already
<jdstrand> planning on helping sbeattie with the apparmor upload for natty FF
<jdstrand> also am working with hallyn on the libvirt merge
<jdstrand> and since someone pointed out ufw is using the wrong preferred python packaging, I fixed that and am fixing up a few other little packaging things there
<jdstrand> I am in the happy place, and am basically trying to help get things into shape for FF
<jdstrand> I figure there is going to be a lot of archive admin work as a result
<jdstrand> I'm done
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you'r eup
<mdeslaur> I just pushed my mailman USN out
<mdeslaur> and am waiting for the lucid fuse -proposed package to release, and then I'll push fuse
<mdeslaur> I am working on an embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> and am currently looking at bind9 issues
<mdeslaur> (need to figure out what to do with bind9...)
<mdeslaur> and would like to poke with gnome-screensaver to fix the automatic login/reboot issue
<mdeslaur> and thursday I'm on patchpiloting
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm working on an openjdk-6 update; I hit build issues caused by upstream, and was hoping for input from doko.
<sbeattie> I'll be releasing apparmor 2.6.0 final this week and also working to push that into natty before FF.
<sbeattie> I'm on triage as well.
<sbeattie> I think that's all for me.
<jdstrand> micahg: you're up
<micahg> jdstrand: upcoming week, right?
<jdstrand> micahg: yeah, or stuff you've been working on that is affecting your work this week
<jdstrand> micahg: or blockers
<micahg> need to get new build of thunderbird uploaded to mozilla-security PPA
<micahg> test Firefox/Thunderbird i386
 * jdstrand will test tbird/amd64
<micahg> I volunteered to patch pilot to clear out things for FF
<micahg> also, still getting stuff setup (local mirror, sbuild)
<micahg> that's it for me
<jdstrand> we'll skip kees
<jdstrand> jjohansen: is there anything you need from us for natty outside of the apparmor 2.6 userspace work sbeattie is working on?
<jjohansen> jdstrand: hrmm no I don't think so, everything I have has either moved to future versions or bugs
<jdstrand> jjohansen: ok
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous and Questions
<jjohansen> uh well unless you want to thin the thicket of papers I am working through
<jdstrand> fyi, I've added prepare_source() in testlib for in build tests in QRT
<jdstrand> there is some documentation in there for how to use it
<jdstrand> it is useful when you find a test suite in the source, but it isn't enabled in the build
<jdstrand> it helps you setup things to download and unpack the source, then patch
<jdstrand> and how to clean up
<jdstrand> test-telepathy-gabble.py and test-dbus.py both use it
<jdstrand> test-apparmor.py needs to be converted to it
<sbeattie> jjohansen: papers?
<jdstrand> I've been using this method instead of checking things into build_results
<jdstrand> anyhoo, fyi
<jdstrand> I don't have anything else
<jjohansen> sbeattie: fsa and maximal spanning tree type stuff
<jdstrand> jjohansen: heh, I won't be touching those :P
<jjohansen> I am trying to work through references
<jdstrand> jjohansen: that said, I could proofread for you
<sbeattie> jdstrand: great! I've been meaning to do something like that for a mythical test-core-utils
<jjohansen> jdstrand: I do have some writing I was planning on kicking your way
<jdstrand> sbeattie: there are probably some warts, but it is a start
<jdstrand> jjohansen: cool
<jdstrand> does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
 * jdstrand takes that as a 'no'
<mdeslaur> nope
<jdstrand> thanks everyone! :)
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:32.
<kees> man, I perfectly timed that
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-23
<mvo> hello
 * barry waves
<robbiew> o/
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jhunt> hi
<mvo> hi
<csurbhi1> o/
<ev> howdy
<robbiew> okey dokey
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> mvo?
<robbiew> joking
<mvo> *weeeeeh*
<robbiew> barry?
<barry> short week due to holidays; sundry computer-janitor bugs fixed, branches merged, releases made; bug 702375 (launchpadlib upgrade to 1.9.7); much debugging of bug 710711 (nm crashes) w/cyphermox.
<barry> done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702375 in python-launchpadlib (Ubuntu) "Please upgrade to 1.9.7" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702375
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 710711 in network-manager-applet (Ubuntu) "NetworkManager crashed with SIGABRT in raise()" [Critical,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/710711
<robbiew> does c-j remove old kernels now?
<barry> the latter should be fixed, but there's still a bug in the atheros driver some where
<barry> robbiew: did it not before?  i didn't change anything around that
<robbiew> hmm... I think it does
<robbiew> maybe I'm thinking about update-manager
<mvo> that does that as well
<mvo> well, in release-upgrade mode anyway :)
<robbiew> ah
<barry> right, normally u-m skips the kernel i think
<mvo> yep
<robbiew> no worries...just wondering how to best remove the old kernel bloat
<robbiew> and forgot about c-j :/
<robbiew> heh
<barry> cli: computer-janitor clean --all
<barry> mvo: we *really* need to get the computerjanitor package out of update-manager-core :)
<barry> i keep thinking about that every cycle when i touch c-j :)
<mvo> barry: much agreed
<barry> but it's never very high on the priority list :)
<mvo> same here
<barry> anyway... done.
<robbiew> cool
<robbiew> ev?
<ev> Meeting with ivanka to discuss the package and /home preservation stuff.
<ev> Rebuilding the automatic partitioning page thanks to some lovely design work by Daniel Fore and UI/copy from mpt (https://docs.google.com/View?id=dfkkjjcj_101gnkrpg5v&pli=1#4_5_1_Automatic_partitioning_o and http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/partitioner-redesign-progress.png - I will fix the os-prober madness).
<ev> Brief discussion with mvo about his wonderful apt-clone branch that will form the basis of the package preservation.
<ev> Will most certainly be asking for a FF exception for at least the confirmation page for the package preservation.
<ev> Discussion with pitti on jockey from a chroot, he amazingly came up with a dbus-free code path in jockey which I'll finish incorporating into the installer today to knock off that nvidia item.
<ev> (done)
<ev> incidentally, forrst is very cool: http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/forrst.html
<ev> (think tumblr for code snippets and design
<ev> )
<mvo> screenshot looks very nice!
<barry> ev: that installer page looks great
<csurbhi1> ev: looks really cool
<robbiew> nice screenshots
<ev> thanks!
<ev> still a bit of work to do, but I think we've finally nailed that first page
<ev> it's very explicit about what your options are and what it's going to do
<robbiew> an \o/ on the jockey stuff too
<ev> pitti is a machine
<robbiew> thnx ev
<robbiew> doko?
<ev> sure thing
<doko> bootstrap work, packaging of new libs, gnat bootstrap (not yet sucessful)
<doko> python3.2 final packages
<doko> add another vm to openjdk-6 (jamvm)
<doko> done
<cjwatson> ev: I love that partitioner design
<ev> cjwatson: that warms the cockles of my heart
<cjwatson> heh
<barry> doko: did you see my email about python2.7 in unstable?
<ev> cjwatson: it's mostly functional to boot
<doko> barry: not touching 2.7 in unstable. what about the robust-packaging for natty?
<barry> heh
<robbiew> jhunt left...doh!
<robbiew> cjwatson?
<cjwatson> done: most of week on bootstrap project again, now into stage2; deferred foundations-n-cd-boot :-(; started on biosdevname packaging, thinking about how to arrange for it to be selectable but off by default; he
<cjwatson> lping out with upstart merge
<cjwatson> todo: finish biosdevname packaging before FF; review and sponsor new upstart; beat a few more late merges into shape, e.g. localechooser
<jhunt_> robbiew: sorry - it happened again; my kernel seems to take umbrage when I remove my headset! :(
<robbiew> jhunt_: wow...open a bug ;)
<jhunt_> will do.
<robbiew> mvo, ready?
<mvo> yep
<robbiew> cool...go!
<mvo> gtimelog report feature broken for me, so report is from (unreliable) memory
<mvo> misc:review/merge lp:~pitti/software-properties/pygi; upload apt-btrfs-snapshot package with automatic snapshots and control cli (which is pretty cool IMO), add support to the release upgrade for it; work on apt-clone for packageselection-foundations-n-update-manager-improvements;
<mvo> apt: merge from debian and upload new ubuntu version (good stuff in here, including the new SetCandidateRelease feature)
<mvo> python-apt: add bindings for new SetCandidateRelease() feature;
<robbiew> :P
<mvo> auto-upgrade-tester: add 2.6 -> 2.7 upgrade import failures detection script/improvements; upload a bunch of python2.7 issues, report some bugs; prepare deployment in data-center (pending bigger hdd)
<mvo> software-center: get submit-usefullness fully working; get offline-mode working;
<mvo> branch review/merges
<csurbhi1> mvo, what is the "control cli" about?
<mvo> csurbhi1: list available snapshots, revert to a previous one, delete
 * cjwatson wonders if we should install apt-btrfs-snapshot by default when / is on btrfs
<mvo> csurbhi1: and manually snapshots
<mvo> (which is not that useful I guess :)
<csurbhi1> mvo, thats cool :)
<mvo> cjwatson: that is a good idea
<mvo> one prolbem is that dpkg is currently pretty slow on btrfs, I imagine because of the explicit syncs()/fsyncs() we do
<mvo> but otherwise its working pretty well for me
<csurbhi1> mvo, why is there a need of sync?
<cjwatson> sorrow and doom
<mvo> csurbhi1: cjwatson is in a better position to tell about this
<mvo> csurbhi1: its to prevent data loss on ext4 under certain circumstances
<cjwatson> it's mostly spelled "e" "x" "t" "4"
<cjwatson> er, yes
 * mvo hopes that is a accurate description
<csurbhi1> but why is that related to btrfs -snapshots?
<cjwatson> dpkg can't go round detecting the filesystem all the time so it has to be safe
 * mvo also notes that his spelling is not the best today
<cjwatson> it's not fsync any more though, it's sync_file_range, afaik
<csurbhi1> aah, i see :) thanks!
<cjwatson> I think you would want to profile before deciding that was the problem though ...
<cjwatson> (I haven't)
<csurbhi1> mvo, if takes too long, then its worth filing a bug
<csurbhi1> i mean fsync
<robbiew> maybe we need a dpkg-ext4 :P
<robbiew> to handle that filesystems...um, unique features
<mvo> heh :)
<robbiew> mvo: anything else?
<mvo> (done)
<mvo> no
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> jhunt_: ?
<jhunt_> Worked on check-config upstart facility which builds on visualisation
<jhunt_> work - not complete yet). Spent most of the time (with lots of help from
<jhunt_> cjwatson!) getting keybuks branches to pass the "make check" phase.
<jhunt_> Result of which is that we now have lp:~upstart-devel/upstart/0.9.
<jhunt_> Currently working on ubuntu merge. Advised robbiew+skaet that unlikely
<jhunt_> to have this ready for FF, so we're now plumping to land a featureset
<jhunt_> for Monday.
<jhunt_> EOT.
<robbiew> coolio
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<csurbhi1> :-/
<robbiew> Feature freeze tomorrow
<csurbhi1> i am still there
<csurbhi1> :D
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> sorry
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round - part 2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round - part 2
<robbiew> csurbhi1: ?
<csurbhi1> Got a short update: This whole week worked on making initramfs event based. Here is a small development:
<csurbhi1> *) Thanks to cjwatson, finally got mountall - upstart communication in initramfs sorted. could get root "ro" mounted on initramfs::/root through mountall (using udevd)
<csurbhi1> *) Now working on creating upstart-udev based jobs for handling md arrays, crypt devices.
<csurbhi1> <DONE>
<csurbhi1> :)
 * robbiew needs csurbhi1 to stick to one nick...so he doesn't forget ;)
 * csurbhi1 notes! :-/
<robbiew> \o/ on mountall - upstart communication in initramfs
<robbiew> thnx csurbhi1
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<robbiew> who has FFEs coming up?
<robbiew> that I should be aware of
<ev> o/
<mvo> so â¦ I have e.g. submit_usefulness already in natty
<mvo> but the server is not fixed yet to actually expose it
<cjwatson> csurbhi1: oh cool, what was the bug?
<mvo> will that require a FFe?
<mvo> technically the feature is in natty, its just the deployment that is lacking behind
<csurbhi1> cjwatson, it was the missing libnih_* libs missing
<robbiew> mvo: hmm...good question
<csurbhi1> i got a trace of init (by making a upstart job that gets the strace -p 1)
<barry> i will hopefully verify launchpadlib 1.9.7 today and get a sponsor to upload it
<robbiew> barry: ack
<robbiew> ev: ack..already discussed
<mvo> barry: I'm patch pilot today
<ev> right-o
<robbiew> mvo: I guess technically, the answer is "no"
<mvo> \o/
<robbiew> because you're not adding code TO the release
<robbiew> ...but
<barry> mvo: excellent.  i'll run leonardr's verification script after my natty vm finishes updating
<mvo> hopefully it sorts itself really quickly as they promised me a updated deployment for tomorrow or friday
<robbiew> ok
<robbiew> mvo: might be worth letting skaet know what users can expect to see once the server side is complete
<barry> mvo: yep.  i had too many problems backporting to maverick (leonard doesn't have natty), so i gave up on that.
<robbiew> in terms of feature highlights for Alpha 3
<mvo> robbiew: good point
<robbiew> heh...I sometimes have them ;)
<cjwatson> csurbhi1: ah, right, makes sense
<csurbhi1> :)
<cjwatson> csurbhi1: are you using copy_exec in yoour initramfs hook now?
<cjwatson> *your
<csurbhi1> cjwatson, yes
<csurbhi1> but ldd on upstart does not say anything about libnih*
<cjwatson> that's odd, it does here
<cjwatson> $ ldd /sbin/init | head -n2
<cjwatson>         libnih.so.1 => /lib/libnih.so.1 (0x00303000)
<cjwatson>         libnih-dbus.so.1 => /lib/libnih-dbus.so.1 (0x00f3b000)
<csurbhi1> oh i meant actually the libnsss
<csurbhi1> not libnih (err)
<csurbhi1> copied the libnss*
<cjwatson> ah, ok
<cjwatson> yeah, that's dynamically loaded
<cjwatson> ok, and that was what we discussed last time - good
<csurbhi1> yes
<csurbhi1> :)
<csurbhi1> by going through the code, i somehow thought that it was creating its own db (rather than looking at any standard system db)
<csurbhi1> and fixing this one, fixed the missing sendmsg() and rcvmsg() returning a 0
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/GoodNews?
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/GoodNews?
<ev> Worked on generating an application bootchart (functions/blocks of code rather than processes) similar to the ones created by the DX team over the weekend, nearly have something useful for ubiquity.  Very simple stuff, but pretty and hopefully valuable.
<barry> 2 weeks to pycon :)
<ev> yay pycon
<robbiew> ev: suhweet!
<ev> so excited to be going for the full thing
<doko> barry: language summit on Thu, or Fri?
<barry> thursday i believe
<barry> march 10
<barry> there's a vm summit on wed march 9, but i'm not attending that
<mvo> some prototype work with stgraber on weblive integration and s-c http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/tmp/weblive-and-software-center.png
<doko> me neither
<robbiew> mvo: VERY cool stuff
<mvo> ev: application bootchart? will that be useful for softare-center as well ?
<ev> ugh
<ev> dear Pidgin, die.  No love, Evan
<ev> mvo: possibly? This is what it looks like: https://wiki.canonical.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/UnityPerformanceAnalysis?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=unity-bootlog-20100319-1.svg
<ev> all you need to do is feed the small python application in unity trunk a csv file of names and times and it goes to town on it
<mvo> cool
<ev> label,start(float seconds),stop(float seconds) - I believe
<mvo> I have a "with ExecutionTime()" thing in s-c already to do the measurements easily
<mvo> that looks like a good match
<ev> nice
<ev> weblive> that looks awesome!
<robbiew> I think it's mostly useful for trying out apps you pay for
<robbiew> would need to sort out the licensing logistics of it...maybe if the application has a demo
 * mvo nods
<robbiew> we could use that
<robbiew> like World of Goo
<mvo> I wonder how well the performance is for a game, its really awsome for normal apps (like ff)
<robbiew> I've done youtube over it
<robbiew> did "okay"
<robbiew> depends on the bandwidth
<mvo> woah
<robbiew> at the Rally, the sound was flawless...the video a bit choppy
<robbiew> but the network in the hotel wasn't that good
<robbiew> this was with an EC2 backing too
<robbiew> okay..anything else
<robbiew> ?
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:49.
<robbiew> thnx all!
<mvo> thanks
<barry> thanks!
<jhunt_> thanks
<ev> thanks
<highvoltage> Anybody around for an Edubuntu meeting?
 * highvoltage goes ahead and spews out random updates for anyone who's willing to read then
<highvoltage> StÃ©phane finished the application selector so that users can choose what to remove from their final installation: http://www.stgraber.org/2011/02/22/edubuntus-installer-ready-for-11-04/
<highvoltage> that's pretty much the last of what we need for Natty feature-wise
<highvoltage> LTSP Live is in a pretty bad state at the moment, but that's bugs and isn't directly affected by the feature freeze on Thursday.
<highvoltage> I propose a bug day for 16 March, this page will be published to the frontpage if no one has a problem with the date (or the lolbug): http://edubuntu.org/2011-02-23/edubuntu-bug-day-16-march
<czajkowski> highvoltage: would you not tie in with UGJ ?
<highvoltage> czajkowski: admittingly, I haven't been following the UGJ stuff recently, is there one planned for that week?
<highvoltage> czajkowski: I'd prefer it if it could tie in somehow with that
<czajkowski> highvoltage: 2 weeks later
<czajkowski> highvoltage: http://www.lczajkowski.com/2011/02/23/ubuntu-global-jam-coming-soon/
<highvoltage> czajkowski: that would've been nice, but it's after beta freeze, ideally we should do it before beta freeze imho
<highvoltage> (beta freeze is also UI freeze this time round)
<czajkowski> :s
<highvoltage> I think we should do something for UGJ anyway, it would be good for documentation, website/wiki updates and other close-to-release stuff
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> and goes back to hide for 25minutes until the meeting actually start ;)
<highvoltage> yeah I made a mistake. edubuntu meeting is in 20 minutes so I'll go back to lurking then :)
<tumbleweed> highvoltage: you really are mixing up your timezones atm :)
<highvoltage> tumbleweed: yeah the last week has been bad, and something is messes up in my chromium profile so all my times in my zimbra calender is also wrong :)
<highvoltage> s/messes/messed/
<charlie-tca> um, why not have a bug day on a thursday and get the bugsquad involved?
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: that's a good idea, are you involved with the bugsquad?
<charlie-tca> yeah
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: so could we make it a bugsquad thing too then and do it on March 10th?
<charlie-tca> let me look
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I think we could do that
<highvoltage> ok, I'm going to link to the bugsquad too then in that story..
<charlie-tca> This is where we plan them - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning
<charlie-tca> I could help you set it up
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: thanks. would it be better to host it in the ubuntu-bugs channel or in #edubuntu?
<charlie-tca> bugs channel if we get the hug day set up for it
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> mgariepy: besides what I pasted in #edubuntu, all that we discussed is bugday stuff, we'll be doing the edubuntu bugday with the bugsquad team on 10 March
<charlie-tca> Adding it to the planning page
 * highvoltage did already
<highvoltage> (if that's ok)
<charlie-tca> yup
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: I wasn't sure if I should've added your name to it too, but I'll leave that to you
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> you and pedro know I am involved. That's good enough
<highvoltage> ok, I updated http://edubuntu.org/2011-02-23/edubuntu-bug-day-10-march
 * highvoltage checks with the bugsquad docs whether there's anything else that needs to be mentioned
<highvoltage> the dates on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay will just need an update, it says the next bug hug day is on 10 Feb
<charlie-tca> there will more to do about the 5th,
 * stgraber waves
<alkisg> ...we're declaring 16 March an Edubuntu Bug day!
<alkisg> ...The bug day will last all day on 10 March 2011
<charlie-tca> Yeah, we have bug days weekly on thursday
<alkisg> sorry just saw that
<maco> alkisg: which date?
<charlie-tca> 10 march
<alkisg> highvoltage: that 16 needs a change to 10?
<alkisg> And wed to thu?
<highvoltage> alkisg: I got the date, where does it say wed?
<highvoltage> (unless you're looking at the publish-date)
<alkisg> highvoltage: i refreshed my browser and it's fixed now
<highvoltage> alkisg: ok
<highvoltage> so... is the lolbug ok?
<highvoltage> I like it because it makes bug days sound less scary, but not sure if people would be ok with that
<highvoltage> ok, I'll hit publish then
<highvoltage> ah, I guess it's also worth mentioning, last week we changed the weekly meetings to monthly meetings. weekly meetings seem to be a bit too frequent for us
<highvoltage> so it will be on the last wednesday of each month now
<highvoltage> I also added a block on the edubuntu page that reminds of the next meeting, I'll just have to remember to update it after every meeting
<highvoltage> anything else?
<alkisg> http://www.stgraber.org/2011/02/22/edubuntus-installer-ready-for-11-04/ this is nice
<alkisg> I hope in the future local edubuntu teams will be able to use PPAs to add additional local software to that installer :D
<highvoltage> yeah, stgraber put quite some work into the logic of how selections affect other selections. it's quite cool
<highvoltage> alkisg: for their own spins that should be possible, but for edubuntu specifically we can only use main/universe/restricted
<highvoltage> the last 2 daily builds failed because I accidentally added 2 packages from multiverse (eek)
<alkisg> highvoltage: isn't that negotiable? :D I mean, to add custom repositories from within ubiquity?
<alkisg> (not in the dvd of course)
<stgraber> alkisg: there's one line in the plugin where you defined what source package to look at for meta packages
<stgraber> alkisg: so a local respin would need to have the PPA in sources.list, have apt-get update run and update that line in the plugin
<highvoltage> alkisg: I think that's a "yes" to your question, then
<alkisg> That's nice. But a local respin can also just directly add software to the CD.
<highvoltage> :)
<alkisg> I think that local teams would appreciate a more direct approach though...
<highvoltage> alkisg: that's what's happening with edubuntu actually, those packages are already installed. ubiquity just removes the packages that get unticked
<alkisg> But there's an option to add more packages from the DVDE
<alkisg> *dvd
<alkisg> So the code to add packages is there - it would only take an "add-apt-repository" in some ubiquity page
<alkisg> Maybe under a "customize" button somewhere
<alkisg> That would help in getting some communities better organized
<alkisg> (not talking about natty specifically - just an idea)
<highvoltage> alkisg: yeah, if someone wants to do that then the ubiquity plugins in the edubuntu-live package could be useful
<highvoltage> well, I guess that's a wrap then, next Edubuntu meeting is on 30 March 2011. Make some noise about it. if we do it monthly we might as well do it properly :)
<mgariepy> thanks everyone :)
<alkisg> Thanks
<highvoltage> thanks alkisg, charlie-tca, mgariepy, stgraber, maco and czajkowski!
<highvoltage> *GONG*
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-24
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> so who's here?
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110224
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110224
 * ogra only half, being a) at the emdebian sprint and b) busy getting all stuff uploaded before FF
 * rsalveti waves
<janimo> hi
<NCommander> hi
 * GrueMaster is presently being caffienated.
<NCommander> we have no action items from last week
<NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-3.html
<ogra> NCommander, still five on your plate
 * davidm waves
<ogra> NCommander, do you plan to finish userland subarch detection ?
<NCommander> On my work items, based off discussion with persia and ogra, my spec needs a rethink with its design, so I'll be redoing it, and shelving it for next cycle. A good portion (the archdetect in userland) stuff did get implemented and will be used for other sanity checks
<ogra> NCommander, note that flash-kernel was redesigned during the emdebian sprint (lacks implementation or specing yet)
<ogra> and that should do a lot of the arch detection bits in a re-usable way in the future
<NCommander> ogra: then we should probably compare notes and see how the new f-k compares to what I had in mind and see if we can simply get this implemented in Debian
<ogra> (proper split of HW detection and functions will haoppen etc)
<NCommander> anything else to bring up?
<ogra> NCommander, well, debian will implement it and we will just get it
<ogra> janimo, your last three WI are on track ?
<ogra> same question to GrueMaster and rsalveti
<janimo> ogra, yes. Pending review, as the CD building is largely out of my hand
<janimo> so I need feedback before proceeding
<ogra> right, NCommander did you look already ?
<rsalveti> ogra: once done with this task for the set-up-box will jump at the edid
 * ogra gave feedback already 
<rsalveti> and that should be today or tomorrow, so seems fine
<GrueMaster> I just converted the Remote Control Solutions to DONE.
<janimo> rsalveti, anythning I can do for rootstock/versatile?
<ogra> awesome
<NCommander> ogra: I didn't.
<GrueMaster> Need the minimal images to go forward on the other workitems, but they will only take an hour once I have an image.
<ogra> NCommander, my only concern was the naming (flavour/type mixup) if thats fixed it should be fine, but it can well be that i missed something
 * NCommander was tied up mostly with patch pilot stuff yesterday
<rsalveti> janimo: that should be fine, was planing to test it today, but in case I'm unable to do so will ping you
<rsalveti> thanks for asking
<rsalveti> spent quite some time fighting with ti packages and sgx this past week
<ogra> NCommander, please review janimo's changes and merge if you think they suit
<ogra> NCommander, though presintalled shouldnt show up in the flavour name
<janimo> ogra, NCommander so Colin should not be involved at all in this, being preinstalled images?
<ogra> NCommander, and move/postpone/close your WIs
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to close WIs due to spec redesign
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to close WIs due to spec redesign
<ogra> janimo, well, would be good to have him have a last look
<janimo> my done WIs do not show up because of some weird parsing error on the whiteboard
<ogra> janimo, but keep his review for post FF, he is very busy atm
<janimo> sure, that's why I did not ping him (or anyone else for that matter)
<ogra> right
<ogra> imho it looks good
<ogra> (apart from the name)
<janimo> I am fine with any naming
<ogra> just drop the preinstalled from it
<janimo> ok
 * ogra cant remember even remotely what that last WI he has open was about
<NCommander> [action] NCommandet to review janimo's work
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommandet to review janimo's work
<ogra> the description is way to generic
<ogra> and persia isnt here
<ogra> rsalveti, btw s/set-up-box/settop-box/ i think :)
<rsalveti> true :-)
<NCommander> anyway, can I move on?
 * ogra thinks so
<NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D Status
<ogra> just uploaded
<davidm> ogra, nice
<NCommander> yay
<rsalveti> ogra: did it build this time?
<ogra> no guarantees *anything* will work :)
<ogra> built on all arches though
<rsalveti> that's fine :-)
<ogra> NCommander, in an offtopic comment, i also uploaded florence (with minor changes)
<ogra> so we dont miss FF
<ScottK> Any progress on Qt with gcc 4.5?
<NCommander> ogra: saw that, persia was handling that though
<ogra> nothing else to report on unity-2d atm ... i expect many many bugs to roll in
<janimo> ScottK, not that I know of
<ogra> NCommander, well, FF is in a few hours
<NCommander> unfortunately, I didn't get a response to my pings before my VPS was rebooted last night
<janimo> there's a gcc patch not sure when it lands in natty
<ogra> he is free to override my upload with a higher version
<NCommander> ogra: I'm aware, but I don't believe the package will pass NEW in its current state
<ogra> ScottK, there was a gcc upload recently
<ScottK> NCommander: Would it be OK to have an action to someone to work with doko on getting the gcc patch in?
<ogra> no idea if that includes the fix
<ScottK> OK.
<doko_> janimo: which one?
<ogra> doko_, the one that makes QT not explode :)
<janimo> doko_, gcc 4.5 miscompiled Qt (volatile int)
 * ogra doesnt have the bug number handy atm
<ogra> NCommander, we'll see, it builds and i fixed the worst bits
<doko_> bug number would be nice ;-p
 * janimo does not eiother but googling for it
<janimo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/+bug/705689
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 705689 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu Natty) "Qt applications crash with segfault error on armel when Qt is built with gcc 4.5 on natty" [High,Confirmed]
<janimo> googling for unity crashes armel gives top hit always
<ogra> NCommander, most important for me was that its in before FF, we can still adjust in coordination with the archive admins
 * NCommander bows down to janimo's Google skills
<ogra> doko_, a fix should already be in the VCS, just not uploaded afaik
 * NCommander moves on
<ogra> ++
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<rsalveti> we just got a kernel from sebjan yesterday
<rsalveti> 2.6.38-rc5 based
<janimo> omap4 ?
<ogra> with DVI ?
<rsalveti> with wlan, dvi and syslink/tiler
<rsalveti> but was basically for testing, as they are merging the audio patches
<ogra> well
<rsalveti> so we're expecting a better tree in 2, 3 days, with additional audio support
<GrueMaster> I'll add it to my todo for testing  today.
<ogra> would be good if someone could test it
<rsalveti> that we can probably merge at least at the ti-omap4-dev
<ogra> snap :)
<ogra> if it works (even roughly) we should drop .35 and switch over
<rsalveti> https://github.com/sebjan/linux-2.6
<rsalveti> tag int-2.6.38-iv1
<rsalveti> ogra: yup
<ogra> preferably before A3
<rsalveti> as soon he send the better tree, with audio, cooloney will merge it
<rsalveti> and after testing we can see if we can directly switch it over 35
<rsalveti> ogra: should be I believe
<ogra> ++
<rsalveti> that's all I have
<rsalveti> they just started the hdmi driver
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<rsalveti> but that will take some time to be in a good shape
<NCommander> bah
 * ogra wonders what happened to the opther kernels
<ogra> the ones that were supposed to come from the community for community images
<rsalveti> persia was looking at this
<ogra> ScottK, werent you involved in either efika or n900 ?
<ogra> rsalveti, yeah, and he isnt here
<rsalveti> at least for imx
<ogra> i was expecting to see at least some upload before FF
<GrueMaster> I have spent 90% of my time the last few days retesting old bugs and adding comments to them for Linaro.  A lot of the bugs require a lot of work to install & test, so most of my time has had to focus on that.
<ogra> but there is no trace of universe kernels
<rsalveti> don't think it'll happen for today
<ogra> yeah, looks like
<GrueMaster> Since images have been broken for almost 2 weeks, it hasn't been a problem.
<ScottK> ogra: I have an efika.  I've been involved in n900.  The n900 kernel is in the archive, but we need LP changes before we can build images.
<ogra> ah
<ogra> why havent i see the n900 kernel :)
<ogra> great
<ogra> GrueMaster, images should build from tomorrow on again
<GrueMaster> Yea, yea.  I've heard that before.  :P
<ogra> well, it currently seems as if janimo's patch got lost
<ogra> janimo, can you come to #ayatana ? and help didrocks
<GrueMaster> I did manage to hack in the new jasper and boot with it on the 20110216 image.  Didn't see any glowing issues.
<ogra> wow
<janimo> ogra, ok
<ogra> i guess i'm a lucky guy :)
 * ogra didnt expect it to work at all
<ogra> so that was half of the image topic during QA :)
<GrueMaster> Well, the next image will tell the full tail.
<ogra> yeah
<rsalveti> and if the swap got fine
<ogra> heh
<ogra> well, ist your code i copy/pasted :P
 * ogra will blame rsalveti if it fails :)
<NCommander> can I move on?
<ogra> yes
<rsalveti> haha :-)
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Uh...
<ogra> hahaha
<GrueMaster> Didn't I just go over that?
<ogra> GrueMaster, go ahead, tell us :P
<ogra> GrueMaster, we like you, cant have enough of you :P
<GrueMaster> Pfft.
<NCommander> bah
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<NCommander> I lack caffiene
<GrueMaster> I do have some new bugs I need to file, but they need to wait until the pool settles and I have new images.
 * ogra hopes everyone participates in slangasek's porting jams nowadays
<NCommander> So upstream believes mono to be fixed onARM, fixing the SMP/threading issues, as well as  applying a patch to workaround a toolchain bug
<janimo> cause of kdebindings failure found, fix building.  I hope this will unstuck the kde ftbfs queue
<rsalveti> nice
<ScottK> janimo: Cool.  Let me know how it goes.
<ogra> wow, well done
<GrueMaster> Yea for kde. Meh on mono.
<ogra> dont say meh
<janimo> NCommander, mono considered fixed for 2.6 too or 2.10?
<ogra> banshee is essential :)
<NCommander> janimo: what was the issue with kdebindings? ( I didn't have much successin debugging it)
<NCommander> janimo: if 2.10 works, I'll backport to 2.6
<ogra> GrueMaster, banshee will pay your salary ;)
<ogra> j/k
<janimo> NCommander, funny because it seems it was your patch that fixed this in the first place. But was dropped two uploads ago from python-qt4-dev
<janimo> at least the patch header mentioned you. quite a large qreal/floar patch
<NCommander> ugh
 * ogra grins .... qreal... float ... 
<ogra> yeah yeah
<ScottK> debfx pushed it back into the dpmt svn so it can get fixed in Debian too.
 * ogra wont say anything anymore to that matter
<GrueMaster> That's the problem.  Patch was on the floar.
<janimo> NCommander,  I can understand if your subconcious cleans up everuthing related from your memory after this kind of debugging sprees
 * NCommander wishes upstream would accept it
<ogra> GrueMaster, nope ... other problem, but i wont stir that up again to not have NCommander freak out again
 * GrueMaster was joking about the typo.
<ogra> anyway, i guess we can move
<NCommander> janimo: what can I say, my mind has effective garbage collection :-)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<janimo> NCommander, that is healthy :)
<ogra> well, half of it was discussed above already
<NCommander> yeah
<ogra> jasper changed massively
<ogra> should display all output on the splash now
<ogra> and the images should have a splash by default on first boot
<ogra> swap is created during image build already
<ogra> and jasper only adds the fstab line
<janimo> ogra, any reason for splash only on first boot?
<ogra> janimo, splash all the time
<rsalveti> since the first boot
<ogra> not "only on first boot"
<rsalveti> that's good for our users :-)
<ogra> we didnt have it before
<janimo> ah ok. I saw comments in debian-cd source TODO (pass splash which ATM does not work with usplash or something)
<ogra> sinc ejasper didnt talk to plymouth
<ogra> usplash is long dead
<janimo> right, but some boot params are put in bootscr.ini there
<ogra> i added quiet and splash to the images cmdline now
<ogra> if you dont see a splash on the new images, please tell me
<ogra> i dont expect everything to work smooth yet
<ogra> but it should work "theoretically"
<ogra> in other news i dont know how the userspace will behave
<janimo> ogra, I use headless as  I don;t do any gui work atm, was just curious as I rmember seeing that splash comment these days, and now you mentioning it in the context of anothet package
<ogra> new unity-2d isnt tested at all yet
 * janimo tested u-2d on x86 a while ago. Swicthed back after failing to manage to use it
<ogra> janimo, plymouth will bail out automatically if no proper console is available
<ogra> so it shouldnt affect serial boots
<ogra> actually it will bail out as soon as *one of the console= args* points to a serial tty
<GrueMaster> Has anyone looked at plymouth to see if it can allow serial console logging and still function?
<ogra> it should switch off the splash
<GrueMaster> Would be nice to have both.
<ogra> not sure if the textmode works
<ogra> you cant
<ogra> by design
<ogra> if it detects console=ttyS* it will turn off the splash
<ogra> and thats wnated upstream
<GrueMaster> Hmm.
 * ogra heavily disagrees but cant convince the,
<ogra> *them
<ogra> anyway, so much about images
<ogra> will be shaky for the next days
<rsalveti> well, want console, disable fancy splash
<ogra> well :)
<NCommander> can I move on?
<ogra> yep
<rsalveti> you always can
<GrueMaster> For test purposes it would be nice to have both.  Serial console should be an option for behind the scenes debugging and monitoring.
<ogra> GrueMaster, tell that to upstream
<rsalveti> :-)
<NCommander> topic] AOB
<rsalveti> ops
 * ogra wont be available tomorrow ... flying back from cambridge 
<ogra> rsalveti will bug you guys with release status stuff :)
<rsalveti> weee :-)
<ogra> since he has taken over the task
<rsalveti> ogra: will you join the team meeting today?
<ogra> and TI will hopefully miss me on the call :)
<ogra> i'll try to, we're going out at that time i think
<ogra> if i find a quiet corner i'll try to dial in
<rsalveti> ok, np
<rsalveti> anyone else?
<rsalveti> with AOB
<GrueMaster> Can we have the release meeting wiki a day before the meeting?  Reviewing & changing it 10 minutes before is a PITA.
<GrueMaster> (same for this meeting wiki).
<ogra> it should exist before the mail goes out, no ?
<ogra> oh, release meeting you mean
<ogra> no
<ogra> i a) wont manage that timely and b) it wouldnt be recent
<rsalveti> yeah
<ogra> the release meeting is at the end of the european workday
<rsalveti> it's good the way it's now
<ogra> so we would miss everything that was acvhieved that day
<rsalveti> we get a lot done by thursday and friday morning
<ogra> right
<GrueMaster> Well, don't expect me to give detailed updates before 8am PST (1600 UTC).
<ogra> nobody does
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: that's fine
<ogra> either rsalveti or me do the details, you just need to cross check
<GrueMaster> Coherent updates are 2 hours later.  :P
<ogra> half an eye with a drip of caffeine should suffice
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra> the buglist isnt really used from that page anyway i think
<ogra> kate uses a LP search for milestones
<GrueMaster> ok
<ogra> its just important for the bugs we want to highlight
<ogra> i.e. the really really serious stuff
<GrueMaster> BTW:  Since we still have time to kill.
<ogra> will you sing and dance for us ?
<GrueMaster> I am working on either updating or closing out old bug reports.
<rsalveti> lol
<ogra> awesome
<ogra> you could fix them too while youre at it *g*
 * ogra hides
<GrueMaster> Only yours.  :P
<ogra> only if you dance now
<NCommander> can I close?
 * GrueMaster does the truffle shuffle.
<ogra> can you take a movie of that NCommander ?
<janimo> we need to move to videoconferencing instead of IRC
<ogra> --
<NCommander> ugh
<ogra> then i have to get dressed before meetings
 * GrueMaster would have to get dressed for that.  No like.
 * NCommander would have to get out of bed
<ogra> (not that i'm sitting naked at the ARM office now, but .... )
<NCommander> No thanks
<janimo> there's no dress code in the ubuntu-arm community
<GrueMaster> No, but there is in Cambridge UK.
 * ogra has a beautiful collection of bathrobes 
<ogra> but i cant wear them here
<NCommander> ogra: pfft, you could simply be Auther Dent
<NCommander> just make sure you have a towel
<ogra> heh
<GrueMaster> Or Hugh Heffner
<ogra> not enough girls around me for the latter
<ogra> though susie probably counts for two
<GrueMaster> Ouch.
<ogra> GrueMaster, in a positive way indeed :)
<ogra> anyway, lets close
<GrueMaster> heh
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:56.
 * charlie-tca waves
<mr_pouit> \o
<charlie-tca> looks like we are here.
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> wish I knew how to make that thing give me the correct times
<charlie-tca> The full meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old Business
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Xubuntu marketing plan
<MootBot> New Topic:  Xubuntu marketing plan
<charlie-tca> knome is working hard on this very topic, and his efforts are very much appreciated
<charlie-tca> We now have a wiki page going, even if the wiki is hard to work with at this time. It is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing
<charlie-tca> Any comments on this subject?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] previous actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  previous actions
<charlie-tca> ochosi and mr_pouit will change panel launchers to generic icons
<charlie-tca> This has taken place in Natty, and, to be honest, looks good!
<charlie-tca> ochosi and knome will put together some logo designs to be discussed as the menu icon
<charlie-tca> I don't seem to have either person here today, so this will be carried forward
<charlie-tca> shimmer project to move items pertaining to Xubuntu to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu
<charlie-tca> Action done
<charlie-tca> and the rest, we did not do yet
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates
<charlie-tca> Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: your turn
<mr_pouit> okay
<mr_pouit> * More syncs/merges from Debian experimental.
<mr_pouit> * Fixed xfce4-indicator-plugin to work with nm-applet and transmission (might be worth adding it by default to the panel, feedback welcome).
<mr_pouit> * Fixed xfce4-notes-plugin to allow smooth upgrades (it won't be removed from the panel when upgrading to 4.8).
<mr_pouit> * Patched update-manager to be able to restart without gnome-session (Bug #530161, not uploaded yet).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 530161 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Restart is not supported if not using gnome session manager (affects XFCE & LXDE)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/530161
<mr_pouit> * micahg packaged and uploaded gmusicbrowser 1.1.6. \o/
<mr_pouit> That's all for this week.
<micahg> well, had some help from quadrispro with gmusicbrowser
<charlie-tca> Hey, that is a lot for this week
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much for all your help
<charlie-tca> and, yes, lest's discuss adding Xfce4-indicator-plugin to the panel
<mr_pouit> yep, I think ochosi spoke with you about that
<charlie-tca> As I understand it, it would use all the good things Ubuntu adds for indicators, and we still keep the systray for what ever does not use the indicators?
<beardygnome> can someone give a quick overview of the plugin please?
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: that's it.
<beardygnome> thanks charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> The plugin, as I understand it, is similar to the indicator panel in Unity, it contains things like the volume control, easy way to get to mail, and that kind of thing.
<mr_pouit> several applications we ship by default (pidgin, transmissionâ¦) don't show up in the systray anymore
<mr_pouit> that makes them difficult to use
<charlie-tca> It sits in the panel, next to the notification area, and allows us to more easily manage applications that are running
<beardygnome> sounds like a no-brainer then
<beardygnome> i take it this is 4.8 only?
<charlie-tca> yes
<charlie-tca> this is for natty only
<mr_pouit> no, xfce4-indicator-plugin can work in 4.6 afaik
<mr_pouit> but yeah, it's for natty only ;>
<beardygnome> so i can't try it out on maverick?
<charlie-tca> and, along with this, what about the cpu graph?
<charlie-tca> yes, you can try it on maverick, by installing it your self
<mr_pouit> and the good thing is that indicator-sound (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoundMenu) is able to call xfce4-mixer, and gmusicbrowser will be integrated in this menu also
<mr_pouit> beardygnome: yes, the plugin is already available, not sure if it works fine (I submitted several patches recently)
<beardygnome> mr_pouit: is it packaged for maverick, or do i need the source?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit has done a lot of work on the indicator applet, to get it to work right.
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: I think we can remove cpugraph also, as cody and you said a few weeks ago
<mr_pouit> beardygnome: it is packaged
 * beardygnome fires up synaptic
<charlie-tca> Okay, so we make the change and it becomes "panel + indicators - cpugraph"
<charlie-tca> and if we really hate it, we can reverse it still, right?
<mr_pouit> okay, I'll do that
<mr_pouit> yes, of course
<charlie-tca> heh, I haven't seen anything we really hated yet, though
<charlie-tca> I just find the cpu graph disturbing, since it flashes lines up there on my panel
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] add xfce4-indicator-plugin to panel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  add xfce4-indicator-plugin to panel
<charlie-tca> Thanks, mr_pouit
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca> a constant battle
<mr_pouit> then don't do any cpu intensive task, and it won't display bars :P
<charlie-tca> it does! it shows little lines that are hard to see
<charlie-tca> hm, I guess I am whining now, huh :-)
<charlie-tca> We have hopes of keeping the bugs squashed down, and just keep working on them.
<charlie-tca> As for testing, the images for natty are all broken today
<charlie-tca> however, we are testing starting tuesday for alpha3!
<charlie-tca> All help is appreciated
<charlie-tca> We gang up in #ubuntu-testing for that
<charlie-tca> any questions for bugs and testing?
<mr_pouit> I didn't follow closely, but it seems to me that very few ne bugs are reported for xfce 4.8 in natty
<mr_pouit> (or maybe they are all private by default so I won't get any notification unless I go directly on launchpadâ¦)
<charlie-tca> I have a done a bad job tracking them this cycle. I have to go look
<mr_pouit> *few new
<charlie-tca> I been hitting them pretty good, and not very many are valid more than a day or two
<charlie-tca> It seems most issues get fixed fast this cycle
<charlie-tca> and the ones that don't are the long term issues already reported
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca> Do we have pleia2 or knome?
<mr_pouit> ok, thanks
<pleia2> hey, real quick
<pleia2> canonical will be setting up a wordpress test install for us!
<pleia2> and vinnl added knome and I to the ~xubuntu-website team so we're all set to put a theme in there once we're ready (canonical will pull from bzr)
<pleia2> hopefully that'll happen in the next few days :)
<charlie-tca> Yes!
<charlie-tca> Suggestion from ochosi - it would be great if the first page would show the slideshow that is shown during installation.
<charlie-tca> that would be for the website
 * pleia2 makes note
<charlie-tca> Of course, we need to update it first for Natty, which is not going all that great
<pleia2> once we have the demo site up we can experiment with this and other suggestions
<charlie-tca> we also have:  ask knome to do some drafts with a grey background and a black background
<charlie-tca> I think that got forgot again, though
<charlie-tca> We can carry it forward, too
<pleia2> yeah
<charlie-tca> The wordpress change is great, though!
<pleia2> yes, very good progress, hooray for canonical sysadmins for their speedy replies! :)
<charlie-tca> Anything else for website and marketing?
<mr_pouit> (another thing that got forgotten and needs to be carried forward: update the slideshows displayed during the installation ;-)
<pleia2> that's all I've got
<charlie-tca> Thank you, pleia2.
<charlie-tca> that is good progress!
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: thanks for the reminder
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
<charlie-tca> Alpha3 will have everything but the new wallpaper
<charlie-tca> ochosi wrote a news article about getting the artwork done. I will be forwarding to someone to publish, pleia2 ?
<pleia2> charlie-tca: sounds good
<charlie-tca> great!
<charlie-tca> He also wants to write another one, about the great features of gmusicbrowser, which is now part of natty
<charlie-tca> That, I think, covers artwork. Any questions/comments?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Discussion - Remote Desktop Viewer (Vinegrae)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion - Remote Desktop Viewer (Vinegrae)
<charlie-tca> the question is: Why do include this in the menu?
<charlie-tca> s/do/do we
<beardygnome> where else would we put it?
<charlie-tca> We wouldn't
<charlie-tca> Do we need it as a default item?
<beardygnome> we'd drop it as a default app?
<pleia2> charlie-tca: sec, it looks like i can give ochosi his own account on the drupal install (I suspect wordpress will be an around natty release thing) so he can post himself
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> pleia2: really? let's do that then
<beardygnome> i use it quite a lot, but i guess it's a rather niche app
<charlie-tca> I never used it, myself. I did not know it was even usable
<beardygnome> yeah, works really well
<charlie-tca> Is it better then to keep it, or to tell users to install it themselves.
<beardygnome> if you're in a position where you need a remote desktop viewer, you're probably capable of finding and installing one
<beardygnome> so i guess making it a default app is a waste of precious cd space
<charlie-tca> We can afford it
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: is "remote desktop viewer" something that we need to remove to free up space?
<charlie-tca> I hope we ain t lost the devs again
<charlie-tca> I need them for the next topic
<mr_pouit> no, we can remove it if we want to, but it's not that big
 * micahg thought we were tight last time on the amd64 CD
<charlie-tca> leave it if someone thinks it is useful
<charlie-tca> hm, maybe we were
<charlie-tca> we still have language packs though
<mr_pouit> micahg: ah yeah, if we add the indicators, maybe we need to drop something else
<charlie-tca> then we should remove the remote viewer.
<mr_pouit> (I didn't exactly check the space remaining)
<charlie-tca> heh, we might be oversize again
<charlie-tca> desktop 64 is 683MB
<charlie-tca> the rest got lots of space
<micahg> well, won't we get some space back by dropping exaile?
<micahg> gmusicbrowser seems a lot lighter
<charlie-tca> yup, but we used it with gmusicbrowser
<mr_pouit> yep, it will drop hal & co.
<charlie-tca> so maybe we gain a bit again
<charlie-tca> okay, so if we need to drop it, we do
<charlie-tca> otherwise, we keep remote desktop viewer as a service to the users that do use it
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Discussion - PowerPC and Armel builds for Xubuntu
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion - PowerPC and Armel builds for Xubuntu
<micahg> charlie-tca: also, with remote desktop viewer, in most cases, people will have internet access, so it's an easy install
<charlie-tca> valid point
<charlie-tca> PowerPC seems kind of dead for us, is it worth building daily images when we are not building the milestones?
<mr_pouit> and the daily builds are either broken or oversized
<micahg> well, I think powerpc has a lot of potential for xubuntu
<charlie-tca> We keep it now because if someone decided to pick it up, it would be easier to fix then if it is not built daily.
<micahg> apple abandoned them
<charlie-tca> potential, but we have no developer for it, and no testing
<charlie-tca> that is a liablility now
<micahg> oh, hmm, well, I guess until it's fixed, it doesn't make sense to buidl the dailies
<charlie-tca> We can't really tell anyone to use it, the way it is today
<micahg> that's too bad
<charlie-tca> Let's pick a timeframe, say by the time beta releases, we need someone actively on it or we stop it? Or do we stop now?
<charlie-tca> I have asked in the ppc channels, on the mailing lists, and on ident.ca for help with it, and got no responses
<Sysi> i think PPC generally lacks testers
<knome> if someone provides me the hardware...
<Sysi> for lucid i heard one kubuntu dev saying he's only tester
<maco> probably harald or scottk
<maco> oh wait, you mean lucid kubutnu on ppc?
<knome> yes
<maco> either nixternal or scottk is the only ppc user in kubuntu devel
<maco> (one of the ssh's to the other's ppc box, i just forget which direction)
<Sysi> Tm__T was earlier
<ScottK> No.  It's Tm_T
<Sysi> (avoiding hilight)
<ScottK> nixternal has a PPC box I sometimes use for build testing.
<maco> ScottK: oooh
<knome> charlie-tca, i need to go now, but just to get it in the logs: i'll get back to the voip-meeting planning before next meeting. we'll also provide the menu logo suggestions with ochosi before the next meeting.
<knome> ta-ra! o/
<knome> ->
<charlie-tca> We had very sporadic testing during the maverick release cycle, and none during natty
<charlie-tca> Thanks, Knightlust
<charlie-tca> thanks, knome
<charlie-tca> sorry, Knightlust
<charlie-tca> I am thinking of it as a liablility, if we go through this cycle with daily builds, and no testing, at some point, a user is going to try to use it.
<charlie-tca> We did put out the 10.04.2 images that way already. They seem to have been built, and are available for use.
<Sysi> if somebody asks for it we could offer it to be tested
<charlie-tca> We also have the question of building armel images for Xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> I don't see it happening at this point, since we have to have committed testers
 * micahg got the ok to ISO test arm, just need to find out how
<charlie-tca> Does that mean they will build a Xubuntu arm ISO, for testing?
<micahg> charlie-tca: we can, I have the ok to take time to test it
<beardygnome> i've got to go now, but will leave my client open so i can review the rest later.
<beardygnome> no votes or anything coming up?
<charlie-tca> thanks, beardygnome
<charlie-tca> no votes, and the only announcement is the testing for alpha3 next week
<beardygnome> thanks charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: thoughts on stopping the ppc builds?
<beardygnome> see you guys next week
<mr_pouit> I don't have such hardware, and I receive everyday some "the daily is broken/oversized" mail :p
<charlie-tca> for the record, I am for stopping that image
<charlie-tca> okay, I will get the minutes out, and if no objections are received, I will stop them next week
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other business?
<charlie-tca> open floor
<mr_pouit> nothing! :)
<Sysi> i was AFK earlier, are we not gonna include desktop switcher to panel?
<charlie-tca> There being no other business, we will have another meeting in one week, on March 3, 2011
<Sysi> it can be confusing if user happens to press keys to switch desktop and nothing happens
<charlie-tca> Sysi: missed that altogether
<charlie-tca> We don't have the desktop switcher in natty?
<Sysi> i haven't seen it in daily builds
<Sysi> as default setup
<charlie-tca> I thought it was in the panel, but maybe not
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: did we drop that?
<mr_pouit> yep, it's not in the current config
<charlie-tca> Can we have it back, or is it a pain to make work now?
<Sysi> it works great, just isn't in default config
<charlie-tca> or do we need it because it is an advanced user configuration?
<Sysi> we have multiple workspaces by default
<Sysi> *i* think having it is easier
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: can we put the switcher back, since we have multiple workspaces already?
<mr_pouit> indeed, it works fine, so let's affect that to ochosi to work on that ;]
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] put workspace switcher back in the current configuration for natty
<MootBot> ACTION received:  put workspace switcher back in the current configuration for natty
<charlie-tca> Thanks for bringing that up, Sysi
<charlie-tca> anything else?
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for attending this meeting.
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:12.
<charlie-tca> That was a very good meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-25
<marjo> hi ara!
<ara> hello marjo :)
<skaet_> hi marjo, ara,  - cool,  we'll have a crisp start.  :)
<marjo> skaet: i think it's going to be a lively start!
 * joshuahoover waves
<rsalveti> skaet_: I'll be replacing ogra today
<rsalveti> for arm
<Daviey> o/
<mvo> hello, I'm here for Colin
<skaet_> thanks rsalveti, mvo :)
<skaet_> Daviey, you or zul today?
<Daviey> skaet_, me
<skaet_> coolio,  and on that note,  I guess its time to begin.  :)
<skaet_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> o/
<skaet_> [Topic] Natty overview - skaet
<skaet_> Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-02-25
<skaet_> Milestoned bugs for alpha3 can be found https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone=33573.
<skaet_> A3 release is March 3rd.
<skaet_> A3 freeze is Feb 28 at 2300 UTC (for those who are pushing to the last minute to fix bugs :) )
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty overview - skaet
<skaet_> There is alot of cruft in our bug database right now, and its showing up in the report.  I'd like to request the leads to please review the bugs in your section, and let me know which ones, in your opinion, are really critical to focus on for A3 over the next couple of days when you go through your status.
<skaet_> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet_> Any questions?
<skaet_> ..
<pitti> AWTY?
<skaet_> ?
<pitti> (ignore me, SCNR)
<pitti> skaet_: "are we there yet"
<skaet_> thanks pitti.  :)
<skaet_> ok, not seeing any questions,  bug please let me know which bugs are critical in your mind (or if the critical ones are even on the list) when we get to your turn.
<skaet_> time for the roundtable then...
<skaet_> [Topic] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo> hi folks
<marjo>  * Natty Alpha 3 Work Items
<marjo>  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-3.html
<marjo>  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<marjo>  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-qa-n-testing-different-architectures
<marjo>  On track.
<marjo>  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-uec-qa
<marjo>  Work items blocked on: server ISO not installable
<marjo>  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/base-installer/+bug/724822
<marjo>  Previously blocked on:
<marjo>  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/723148
<marjo>  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/udev/+bug/724242
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 724822 in base-installer (Ubuntu) "d-i installer fails for server/alternate i386/amd64: Corrupted deb files on iso" [Critical,Fix released]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 723148 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Natty server ISO images fail to install" [High,Fix released]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 724242 in udev (Ubuntu Natty) "alternate and server images fail to install: d-i stops with "Your installation CD-ROM couldn't be mounted"" [High,Fix released]
<marjo>  QA Dashboard
<marjo>  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> Note unity and xserver-xorg-video-intel are in both the "Last Day" and "Last 7 Days" metrics.
<marjo>  * Testing status:
<marjo>  Desktop Automated Testing results
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo> jibel is investigating a failure with aboutme
<marjo> List of bugs found is at the bottom of page.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo>  Server Automated Testing results
<marjo>  http://204.236.234.12/view/ISO-server-Natty/?
<marjo>  22 failures are mostly due to images not installing.
<marjo>  Automatic Upgrade Testing
<marjo>   http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/current/
<marjo>   per mvo, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sudo/+bug/690873 and the main-all bug is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openoffice.org/+bug/715075
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 690873 in sudo (Ubuntu Natty) "latest natty sudo upgrade prompts for conffile update and potentially removes %admin from /etc/sudoers" [High,Triaged]
<marjo> ..
<skaet_> thanks marjo!
<pitti> impressive increasing of #tests over time!
<marjo> pitti: thx and QA team continuing to add tests
<marjo> thx to jibel, patrickmw, pedro, hggdh, bdmurray
<marjo> ..
<skaet_> marjo,  which bugs are still blocking for A3 image creation right now?
<skaet_> in what you're seeing?
<marjo> skaet: a3 image creation?! i can't speak for that
<jdstrand> skaet_: I plan to start looking at that stuff btw, now that we are past FF
<skaet_> heh, should reword,  sorry.
<jibel> skaet_, empathy is not installable
<marjo> skaet: ??
<jdstrand> skaet_: and fix what I am able to
<skaet_> install blocking...
<pitti> jibel: on amd64?
<hggdh> the last known one was today's d-i bug (just fixed)
<jibel> pitti, right,
<pitti> jibel: fixed around noon
<skaet_> jdstrand, jibel, hggdh - cool.  thanks!
<pitti> was fallout from last night's unity and dbus update
<marjo> skaet: ah, hggdh & jibel just answered that
<skaet_> thanks
<skaet_> any other questions?
<pitti> skaet_: CD builds failed this morning due to aptdaemon, I fixed that
<pitti> otherwise they should work
<skaet_> pitti,  :D  thanks.
<marjo> pitti: thx much!
<skaet_> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - ara
<hggdh> of interest is bug 723482, which seems to affect installations with multiple filesystems
<ara> Hello!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 723482 in mountall (Ubuntu) "system hangs on boot after updates from 2011-02-22" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/723482
<ara> This week has been a bit of a nightmare in terms of testing. We haven't had a good image all week, so we were not able to test Natty in our labs.
<ara> The alternate image had 3 issues (one new everyday):
<ara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/723148
<ara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/724242
<ara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/724822
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/723148
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/724242
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 723148 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Natty server ISO images fail to install" [High,Fix released]
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/724822
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 724242 in udev (Ubuntu Natty) "alternate and server images fail to install: d-i stops with "Your installation CD-ROM couldn't be mounted"" [High,Fix released]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 724822 in base-installer (Ubuntu) "d-i installer fails for server/alternate i386/amd64: Corrupted deb files on iso" [Critical,Fix released]
<ara> The Live Cd has a memory leak, that it is preventing us for testing it as well:
<ara> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/714829
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/714829
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 714829 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu) "Xorg segfaults during LiveCD installation using preseed file" [High,Incomplete]
<marjo> ara: bugs look familiar :)
<ara> Good news on the Live CD: Daniel is testing the fix proposed in the above bug, and he thinks that it might solve the issue. He needs to do some more investiagation.
<ara> Let's hope next week we get a good image that finishes installation and we can go back to our HW testing and bootchart metrics.
<ara> ..
<skaet_> thanks ara.
<marjo> ara: thx looking forward to it!
<skaet_> any questions?
<skaet_> hggdh,  bug noted.   thanks.
<skaet_> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> We got apparmor 2.6 uploaded before feature freeze. It is currently in NEW because of the new python-libapparmor package -- since I uploaded it, I can't process it so if a listening archive admin wants to take care of it, that would be great.
<jdstrand> We have no remaining milestoned features or bugs for alpha-3. We are below the trend line on work items overall.
<skaet_> :)
<jdstrand> Other than what is in the links, that's it
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet_> thanks jdstrand.   of the bugs I've got listed in your area that you're interested in - are they the right ones,  or am I missing some?
<skaet_> area of the agenda report?
<jdstrand> skaet_: let me check
<skaet_> jdstrand, thanks!
<skaet_> any other questions before I move on while jdstrand is checking?
<skaet_> [Topic] Kernel team update - smb
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - smb
<smb> Hi there
<skaet_> hi
<smb> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<smb> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<smb> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-3.html
<smb> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-3.html
<smb> We are a bit above the line on the burn-down but that is mostly an artifact of there being so very few specific items for our team.  The natty kernel is now at v2.6.38-5.32 (v2.6.38-rc5 based).  Overall we have most of our development out of the way, with just the ecryptfs long filename work ongoing, we are now tracking mainline and fielding issues as they appear.  Mainline progress towards a final release are continuing satisfactorily.  The
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<smb> main concern currently is the vesafb interaction with the intel DRM drivers which is triggering GPU hang reports, this is next weeks focus.
<smb> Of the bugs called out on the agenda against the kernel, status is as below:
<smb> #344878 ecryptfs long filename prototype continues to evolve with a second push going to upstream, the on-disk format is not yet agreed and this is highly unlikely to be resolved in time;
<smb> #539467 SATA alpm is now disabled in userspace, testing with upstream recommendations are ongoing;
<smb> #542660 still present, further upstream testing requested;
<smb> #630748 remains waiting on Intel for updated wireless firmware;
<smb> #634487 investigations just beginning;
<smb> #636091 is looking like a locking issue in USB, possibly to do with the BKL, waiting on reporter; and
<smb> #702090 looks to be an interaction with vesafb, upstream are saying "don't do that".
<smb> The other "driver" bugs have yet to be reviewed; status will be added to the kernel report next week (first link).
<jdstrand> skaet_: you are missing 712662 714908 714958
<smb> As people may have noticed, this is the brain dump of apw (who may be able to listen but has too big fingers to type quickly enough on his phone.
<smb> ..
<skaet_> lol  :)
<skaet_> thanks smb.
<skaet_> of the bugs listed in the agenda - which are the true blockers in your mind for A3 image release?
<skaet_> if there are no other questions for smb,  I'm happy to go on and let him look in the background.
<skaet_> other questions?
<skaet_> jdstrand,  thanks,  will add them.
<smb> skaet_, Will look.
<skaet_> smb,  thanks.
<skaet_> Topic] Foundations team update - mvo
<mvo> I stand in for Colin today to represent the foundations team
<mvo> What we did:
<mvo> barry release a new computer-janitor; evan worked on /home preservation and a great new partition page in ubiquity; doko packaged python3.2-final and jamvm plus bootstrap work; cjwatson was doing bootstrap work and biosdevname packaging; mvo merged a new apt, uploaded apt-btrfs-snapshot, software-center work and worked on testing python 2.6 -> 2.7 upgrades in the auto-upgrade-tester; jhunt merged all the upstrart work into lp:~upstart-devel/
<mvo> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<mvo> features for a3:
<mvo> packageselection-foundations-n-finish-upstart: in progress, jhunt has a PPA ready
<mvo> packageselection-n-network-stack: done, waits on NEW/MIR
<mvo> bugs:
<mvo>  #638307 - under investigation, needs coordination with debian
<mvo>  #684083 - waits for confirmation of the reporter that its fixed (or not)
<mvo>  #692691 - only affects grub1, still needs fixing
<mvo>  #684703 - packages should update their symbol file to use (c++) tag
<mvo>  #709191 - under investigation, could be correupted apt cache file
<mvo>  #711896 - looks like a badly timmed upgrade when the archive was in a lot of churn (i.e. the right packages not yet rebuild)
<mvo>  #712173 - waits on debug logs
<mvo>  #712554 - pitti will look at it
<mvo>  #712654 - unclear if its a bug outside of virtualbox
<mvo>  #655950 - should get fixed with the new parition screen evan works on
<mvo>  #605042 - we need help from someone with a arm board here (ogra?)
<mvo>  #634487 - invalid for java
<mvo>  #672177 - fixed, just needs uploading
<mvo>  #675347 - waiting on upstream, we have a workaround
<mvo>  #719129 - under investigation, there is a upstream patch now
<mvo> (done)
<mvo> we will do some cleanup on the buglist, there are some dubious ones on it really
<mvo> (really done now :)
<skaet_> thanks mvo  :)
<skaet_> can you also let me now asynchronously,  which are the real ones to focus on unsticking for A3.
<skaet_> ?
<skaet_> I agree there are some dubious ones being turned up on the list right now.  :P
<mvo> I guess the grub and ubiquity ones
<skaet_> ok,  give me the bug numbers, and I'm probably going to into the agenda and do something to make them stand out, for focus, while we clean up cruft.
<skaet_> any other questions for mvo?
<mvo> thanks, I will do that async then
<skaet_> thanks!  :)
<skaet_> [Topic] Server team update - Daviey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - Daviey
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> == Status ==
<Daviey> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-server-natty-alpha-3.html
<Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-server-natty-alpha-3.html
<Daviey> == Milestoned Bugs ==
<Daviey> bug 580319 - Spamaps currently Investigating.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 580319 in dhcp3 (Ubuntu Natty) "dhcp3-server launches before upstart brings all interface, thus failing to start" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/580319
<smb> skaet_, Only 702090 seems really of importance
<Daviey> bug 590201 - hallyn currently investigating
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 590201 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Natty) "OpenSolaris (previously working) no longer boots: kernel panics early" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/590201
<Daviey> bug 697753 - Will be fixed in next upload
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 697753 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Natty) "bittorrent recommendation prevents bittorrent demotion" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/697753
<Daviey> bug 711587 - RoAkSoAx investigating
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 711587 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Natty) "powernap and Eucalyptus seem unable to reach an understanding" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/711587
<Daviey> bug 517300 - Waiting on upstream to land fix from maverick, then sync.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 517300 in likewise-open (Ubuntu Natty) "[armel] likewise-open needs porting to ARM" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/517300
<Daviey> bug 717166 - Daviey working with upstream to resolve
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 717166 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Natty) "Broken with v4 isc-dhcp-server in Natty" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/717166
<Daviey> bug 724470 - Daviey working on. Good progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 724470 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "apache2: symbol lookup error: /etc/eucalyptus/axis2/services/EucalyptusNC/libEucalyptusNC.so: undefined symbol: rampart_print_security_processed_results_set" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/724470
<Daviey> bug 600174 - doko pushed a new upstream version to PPA which builds, disecting to find the resolution has been hard.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 600174 in axis2c (Ubuntu Natty) "axis2c fails to build from source on maverick/i386" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/600174
<Daviey> == Work Items / Specs ==
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-image-rebundle
<Daviey> Outstanding commited work items are purely out of archive documentation work, not restricted by the release schedule.
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-containers-in-uec
<Daviey> Making good progress, requires some further work, upstream review, merging and a FFe.
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-cloud-images
<Daviey> Over the hump of the alpha-3 work items, remaining is one is to verify a feature (hopefuly complete today) and secondly a new tool to manipulate the an image, where the FFe is being composed at the moment
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-server-n-java-library-housekeeping
<Daviey> Remaining work item for A3 is to regress test and file a FFe for a main sync.
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-server-n-cluster-stack
<Daviey> Work items for A-3 complete, or suitably postponed. \o/
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-cloud-init
<Daviey> Remaining work items are documentation, out of archive.
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-openstack-integration
<Daviey> Tracking upstream nicely, awaiting update on dashboard progress - If that makes Natty it will be a universe NEW package.  Possible it might just be a PPA upload.
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-containers-finetune
<Daviey> Totally complete, \o/
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-server-n-hudson
<Daviey> Excellent progress, spec is mainly a (complicated!) semi-supported PPA and nearing completion.
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-openstack-integration
<Daviey> Good progress, appears to be below trend as most of WI are regarding tracking upstream for snapshots.  All Universe related work.
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-install-service
<Daviey> Making progress, the main assignee has been travelling - but pace should increase soon.
<Daviey> == General ==
<Daviey> We are making good progress on release critical issues, the primary concern for me at the moment is some of the eucalyptus issues.  The items that appear to be behind trend are largely documentation refresh, or PPA related work items; which are not subject to the relevant freezes - but are still on track for A3 release as a target.  Most of this week we've had a non-functional daily ISO.  We should be expecting more daily testing next week, w
<Daviey> hich may uncover more issues - but generally the platform is looking reasonably stable.
<Daviey> ...
<skaet_> Daviey thanks!   sounding very good indeed.
<Daviey> skaet_, groovy!
<skaet_> Is the list I've got in the agenda for your bugs, got the important ones on it?
 * Daviey rechecks
<skaet_> any other questions?
 * skaet_ will let Daviey recheck asynch
<Daviey> skaet_, I'll make a point of double checking out of band
<Daviey> thanks
<skaet_> thanks!
<skaet_> [Topic] Desktop team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti
<pitti> Blueprint implementation:
<pitti> - On track for entire cycle
<pitti> - Alpha-3: got close to trend line after some cleanup
<pitti>   * a lot is DX integration (which we need to wait on); biggest one is Unity
<pitti>   * a11y support, for which there is another code drop planned next Monday, to
<pitti>   * close some (not all) WIs the quickly ones are blocked on landing additional
<pitti>   * Launchpad API; moved to beta-1 now, will most likely be moved to o-series
<pitti> General status:
<pitti> - feature development has settled down, working a lot on bug fixes now
<pitti> - new Unity/Compiz/nux releases caused some temporary archive breakage, but settled now
<pitti> - new LibreOffice 3.3.1 microrelease uploaded; part of it is bringing back the Human icons
<pitti> - utouch stack is in main now
<pitti> RC bug status: details at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus#rcbugs
<pitti> - most of them are coming in and get fixed without much noise, but these two are worth calling out:
<pitti> - bug 710582: getting behind; asked Robert about the status, will get some extra hands on Monday if he doesn't have time
<pitti> - bug 637827: still no response from Mozilla despite repeated poking
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 710582 in webkit (Ubuntu Natty) "webkit crashes on amd64 architecture with SIGSEGV in WTF::OSAllocator::reserveAndCommit() was: webkit does not implement "assert" sanely" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/710582
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 637827 in firefox (Ubuntu Natty) "Firefox and Thunderbird (XUL) menus don't appear in the global menu bar" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/637827
<pitti> There's one thing I'd like to discuss and point out here:
<pitti> we currently have swt-gtk in main, since eucalyptus builds against it; however, it's not really maintained, and uses the old xulrunner-1.9.2, which we must remove from main (and possibly from the archive)
<pitti> the best thing would be if we could drop eucalyptus' dependency on swt-gtk (it doesn't have a GTKish frontend anyway, does it?); Daviey, is there any chance we could do this?
<pitti> alternatively swt-gtk needs to be ported to xulrunner-2.0; Chris already looked at this, but it's a huge task, and neither the current nor the ported version actually work; we don't have a Java specialist in the desktop team, so if this should be done, we need help for this
<pitti> ..
<skaet_> thanks pitti!
<pitti> (sorry for the broken enumeration in the first part)
<pitti> skaet_: as for A3 blocker, that's mainly #710582
<Daviey> pitti, I had a couple of outstanding questions with chrisccoulson... I should have chased them
<pitti> we'll open a bug report about this now, to track/discuss the issue
<Daviey> pitti, If i can have a swt-gtk package built without xulrunner, would make things much easier to regress test.
<skaet_> pitti,  am in awe of your burndown chart record this release.... very impressive.
<pitti> Daviey: are we going to keep euca for natty, or will we move to openstack?
<chrisccoulson> Daviey, the issue with that is it breaks eclipse :(
<Daviey> (ideally one that works on *maverick*, natty euca platform is too unstable to check it against)
<chrisccoulson> (eclipse is using the browser part of swt-gtk)
<Daviey> pitti, openstack is purely universe for this release
<pitti> Daviey: does euca actually use anything desktop-ish? I thought it was a web frontend
<chrisccoulson> i don't really care about the other packages that are using the browser part of swt-gtk (vuze, tuxguitar etc), but if I break eclipse then I will be very unpopular
<Daviey> pitti, it is purely web based
<pitti> Daviey: right, that made me wonder why it needs gtk at all
<Daviey> pitti, but note, that the gwt library is an abused version.
<Daviey> (as in, heavily modified... and everyone is scared to touch it.)
<pitti> it should also be noted, if we go the porting route, this will need to happen every three months
<chrisccoulson> which is why i want to get xulrunner out of main :)
<Daviey> chrisccoulson / pitti: other than supporting xulrunner in main, what is the main gain for this work?
<pitti> Daviey: that very; xulrunner API/ABI will change every three months now, and thus we get rid of it where we can
<Daviey> Oh i see
<pitti> it'll also help to reduce some space on the server CDs, but that's secondary
<Daviey> pitti / chrisccoulson: if you can get be a package built without xulrunner, i'll make sure it's tested
<chrisccoulson> also, having it in main implies a commitment to support it for the life of an ubuntu release
<chrisccoulson> which is going to be difficult
<pitti> Daviey: I'm afraid we dont know euca at all
<Daviey> pitti, oh, not expecting you to touch euca! :)
<pitti> this was brought into main for euca
<chrisccoulson> we already backported 1.9.2 to all supported ubuntu releases (to replace the obsolete 1.9), and that was a significant amount of work
<Daviey> pitti, i mean, a swt-gtk package built without xulrunner
<Daviey> Or have i missunderstood the predicament?
<pitti> Daviey: we can't
<chrisccoulson> doing that every few months on 4-5 supported ubuntu releases is basically a full-time job ;)
<pitti> Daviey: swt-gtk needs xulrunner
<pitti> Daviey: the question is to drop swt-gtk from euca
<Daviey> Ahhhhh!
<Daviey> Okay... i didn't understand the issue correctly.. sorry
<pitti> since euca doesn't actually seem to need any GTK/SWT stuff (being a server/web frontend app)
<Daviey> pitti, I'll test a maverick euca cloud without swt-gtk, and therefore xulrunner this week
<Daviey> I'll update the bug that is about to be raised :)
<pitti> Daviey: great, many thanks
<skaet_> cool.
<Daviey> maverick being a working platform is a better comparison
<skaet_> pitti,  thanks for highlighting the A3 blocker,  will make sure its left highlighted in the scrubbing.
<skaet_> any other questions for pitti?
<skaet_> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases are in the link above
<joshuahoover> we nearly got everything in prior to feature freeze yesterday but missed a (relatively small) feature that we'd still like to get in for notifying users they've exceeded their quota, which is made up of 3 tasks: bug #702172 #702176 #702183
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702172 in ubuntuone-client (Ubuntu) "Syncdaemon needs to send a notification when a folder shared to the user exceeds the owning user's quota" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702172
<joshuahoover> i haven't filed the exception yet as we're seeing if we can have it ready by tuesday, if we can't then we're not going to try to get the freeze exception
<joshuahoover> early next week we're reviewing ui changes and finalizing them so we hit ui and string freezes
<joshuahoover> we're now busy prioritizing u1 bugs to fix since new features are complete...i should have an updated list on our release status page by next meeting
<joshuahoover> and that's it for this week for u1 - questions?
<joshuahoover> ..
<skaet_> thanks joshuahoover!
<skaet_> are the bugs I've got listed on the agenda matching up with the ones you're focusing on?
<joshuahoover> skaet_: yes, plus possibly others :)
<skaet_> joshuahoover, cool.   let me know the others asynch.
<skaet_> any that you consider blockers for releasing A3 at this point?
<joshuahoover> skaet_: no
<skaet_> cool.   just wanted to double check.
<skaet_> any other questions?
<skaet_> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
 * skaet_ looks around and sees that Riddel is away on the status... anyone else from Kubuntu?
<debfx> shadeslayer: ^
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell>  * kdebindings now compiling on ARM, hopefully the rest of the KDE packages will be able to compile on ARM once that's done
<Riddell>  * qt broken on ARM due to multitouch patch and for some reason has started using egl bug #724867 fixing now being tested
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 724867 in qt4-x11 (Ubuntu) "current qtopengl breaks virtualbox" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/724867
<Riddell>  * we were due to get upstream 4.6.1 tars yesterday but confusions in the git transition have delayed, looks like we'll end up having some different source tars for 4.6.1
<Riddell>  * CDs building and not oversized (except PPC)
<Riddell>  * 11 bugs milestoned for alpha 3 http://goo.gl/yGhJd
<Riddell>  * Desired features are in, no notable FFes expected https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
 * skaet_ happy to see no notable FFes expected
<skaet_> ..?
<Riddell> ..
<skaet_> thanks Riddell.   Any of the bugs listed in the Agenda true blockers for A3 in your opinion?
<Riddell> no, nothing I expect to be a blocker
<skaet_> thanks!  good to hear.
<skaet_> any other questions?
<skaet_> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hi, the report is up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus#preview as usual
<dbarth> of note this week
<dbarth> unity 3.4.6 released, including 31 new features or bug fixes: https://launchpad.net/unity/+milestone/3.4.6
<dbarth> compiz 0.9. released as well
<dbarth> we also received beta versions of proprietary drivers to continue testing (and developing!) unity: thanks for the xorg team and vendors
<dbarth> on the unity foundations front:
<shadeslayer> darn
<dbarth> final installment of libunity, with the additional soundmenu API
<dbarth> datetime indicator upload late, scheduled for monday now: features a new prefs dialog with a timezone selector; calendar monitor supporting remote cals as well
<dbarth> Even more appmenu fixes from the amazing mterry and chriscoulson
<dbarth> LibreOffice making its way into natty/universe
<dbarth> gir introspection issues resolved, which provides python bindings and a new call documentation set
<shadeslayer> sorry Riddell ... :(
<dbarth> qa, alex is full on bug triaging
<dbarth> and provided the HW cert team with the autopilot tool
<dbarth> bug status
<dbarth> Bug:175874 - Bug, not feature, for monday
<dbarth> Bug:657771 - Bug, not feature, next week
<dbarth> Bug:663030 - mterry is on it
<dbarth> Bug:676166 - just received beta drivers, work resumed on investigating it
<dbarth> Bug:685682 - same
<dbarth> Bug:686698 - same
<dbarth> Bug:689179 - assigned to ted
<dbarth> Bug:690537 - asked for more info
<dbarth> Bug:692823 - Incomplete
<dbarth> Bug:694596 - Dupe of multi-monitor bug, not released but ready for trunk merge
<dbarth> Bug:706754 - fixed
<dbarth> Bug:708188 - assigned to ted
<dbarth> Bug:709138 - fixed
<dbarth> Bug:709380 - fixed
<dbarth> Bug:711749 - assigned to mterry
<dbarth> Bug:711378 - assigned to smspillaz
<dbarth> Bug:711916 - assigned to jay
<dbarth> Bug:711916 - assigned to smspillaz
<dbarth> Bug:720895 - assigned to chriscoulson
<dbarth> Bug:722298 - fixed
<dbarth> Bug:723014 - assigned to sam
<dbarth> Bug:723873 - confusing
<dbarth> Bug:724093 - assigned to sam
<dbarth> (sorry for the spam)
 * skaet_ appreciates the details.  thanks
<dbarth> we'll have some ffes but the exact list will depend on how much we can still pass on monday for the ultimate upload window we've negotiated with didrocks
<dbarth> before the final feature freeze curtain comes down
<dbarth> we keep getting a lot of help from platform
<dbarth> i want to highlight the contributions of mterry and chriscoulson this week in particular
<skaet_> :)
<dbarth> but the usual suspects haven't slowed down helping us as well
<dbarth> didrocks, we love you
<dbarth> ...
<skaet_> thanks dbarth!
<dbarth> questions?
<skaet_> can you please let me know before you're dropping packages on monday?
<dbarth> for the ffes? yes, will do
<skaet_> dbarth, thanks.
<skaet_> also,  which of the bugs we have right now, do you consider true A3 blockers?
 * skaet_ wants to make sure the dependency chains resolve out.
<skaet_> dbarth, feel fee to think about it asych
<dbarth> ah
<skaet_> s/fee/free/ even.:P
<dbarth> thinking
<skaet_> any other questions for dbarth before we move on?
<skaet_> [Topic] ARM team update - rsalveti
<dbarth> (asynchronously, let the other teams pass, that may take some time)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - rsalveti
<rsalveti> Status is at:
<rsalveti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Summary:
<rsalveti>  * 705689 is still waiting for a gcc upload, this bug now also affects KDE, QT has a workaround that will be dropped.
<rsalveti>  * TI is preparing a kernel pull request for OMAP 4, adding support for DVI, Wlan, audio and syslink/tiler, should hit us on monday (too close to be the default one for Alpha 3, but we'll try)
<rsalveti>  * SGX GLES driver for natty was updated to 1.7, a lot more stable than previous release (still at the TI PPA)
<rsalveti>  * WI work progressing well, but some FFe will probably be needed
<rsalveti>  * Jasper rewrite BP is basically done, with plymouth since first boot! Just need more testing.
<rsalveti>  * Mono ARM SMP support is done upstream, testing is on going and then backport is needed to fix the mono issues with Pandaboard.
<rsalveti>  * Unity-2D was updated to latest available release.
<rsalveti>  * python-qt4 FTBS is fixed, should help clean KDE again.
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Image status:
<rsalveti>  * Current builds are failing due to unity FTBFS which fails due to some non arch independend casting, bug is being inspected
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Specs:
<rsalveti> Entire status: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<rsalveti> Milestone: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-3.html
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Serious Bugs:
<rsalveti> bug 705689
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705689 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu Natty) "Qt applications crash with segfault error on armel when Qt is built with gcc 4.5 on natty" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705689
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> the only real blocker issue for A3 now is the unity ftbfs
<rsalveti> that we're looking at it already
<rsalveti> probably the same issue we had with nux
<dbarth> rsalveti: the nux pb?
<dbarth> right
<skaet_> thanks rsalveti!   what's the bug number for the unity FTBFS?
<rsalveti> other than that it seems we're fine for a3
<rsalveti> skaet_: we don't have it yet
<rsalveti> just saw it before the meeting
<rsalveti> will fill one and let you know about it
<skaet_> rsalveti, heh,  real time status indeed.  :)
<skaet_> thanks!
<rsalveti> np
<rsalveti> ..
<skaet_> any other question?
<skaet_> [Topic] MOTU team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update
<skaet_> ScottK isn't able to make it today,  anyone else here?
 * pitti has to disappear, sorry
<skaet_> [Topic] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
 * skaet_ looks around for JamieBennett?
<skaet_> [Topic] any other new business/kudos/comments/questions?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other new business/kudos/comments/questions?
<skaet_> doko?
<doko> when to take a snapshot for another (the last) test rebuild, such that there is no major Gnome or KDE update ongoing, and almost nothing broken
<doko> that should be with enough time to fix things, but late enough, that most of the packages do build
<doko> ahh, pitti left, so Riddell ?
<skaet_> hmm,  we just lost pitti,  anyone else from desktop have an opinion on the Gnome?
<skaet_> Riddell?
<skaet_> doko,  how about I give them an action to come back to you with a time ;)
<doko> skaet_: ok, thanks
<skaet_> [ACTION] pitti, Riddell - advise doko of recommended timing for snapshot test rebuild including Gnome and KDE close to final.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti, Riddell - advise doko of recommended timing for snapshot test rebuild including Gnome and KDE close to final.
<skaet_> ok?
<skaet_> any one else have questions/comments?
<skaet_> Thank you to all the teams for the awesome amount of work getting those last features in.   Very impressive!
<skaet_> and on that note...
<skaet_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:05.
<marjo> skaet_ thx!
<skaet_> thank you marjo, jibel, hggdh, ara, jdstrand, smb, apw, mvo, pitti, Daviey,  joshuahoover, dbarth, rsalvetti, doko
<ara> thanks skaet_!
<doko> thanks
<rsalveti> skaet_: the unity ftbfs: bug 724615
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 724615 in unity (Ubuntu) "unity FTBFS on armel" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/724615
<rsalveti> skaet_: and thanks :-)
<mvo> hanks
<skaet_> thanks rsalveti,  noted. :)
<joshuahoover> thanks skaet_
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> Ubuntu For All meeting will start here shortly
<hakimsheriff> AlanBell, Hi
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is AlanBell.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<AlanBell> hi everyone
<AlanBell> who is here for the Ubuntu For All kickoff meeting?
<michaelwigle> Me.
<Pendulum> o/
<Mkaysi> o/
<michaelwigle> o/
<leoquant> o/
<michaelwigle> Although, sadly, I had a meeting conflict and will have to bail in about 10-15 minutes
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> I was expecting a few more folk to join, but that is OK
<AlanBell> we will probably pick up a few as we go along
<michaelwigle> Yeah, 5 seems a little low...
<Pendulum> I know there's someone who would have wanted to be here who's sick
<AlanBell> ok, well I want to go through the agenda anyway, we can always get further discussion going on the mailing list afterwards
<AlanBell> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll/Meeting
<AlanBell> [TOPIC] Purpose and scope of the team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Purpose and scope of the team
<AlanBell> ok, so this team is an idea that has been kicking about for a number of years
<AlanBell> elky put together an area on the ubuntu wiki at
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll
<AlanBell> and started to define the project, and I picked that up some months ago
<hakimsheriff> Im here
<AlanBell> the way I would like to see it, is as a kind of support team
<hakimsheriff> sorry I was busy
<AlanBell> the way I wouldn't like to see it is as a governance council
<AlanBell> we have enough of them alreadh
<AlanBell> already
<AlanBell> the idea is to gather together all of the existing Ubuntu teams that address issues of diversity, equality and outreach
<AlanBell> each in different ways to a different target group of Ubuntu users
<AlanBell> the somewhat tentative list of supported projects is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll/ProjectList
<AlanBell> different projects are at different levels ranging from very active to dormant, or not started
<AlanBell> I would like to see this team helping each of the projects in the list to maintain their desired level of activity
<AlanBell> (which could well be dormant)
<AlanBell> so we would provide some level of ensuring continuity, helping make sure meeting schedules were working
<AlanBell> team reports done each month if the team wants to do such things
<AlanBell> and generally being an available resource for support tasks
<AlanBell> does this make sense so far?
<hakimsheriff> Yes, Of Course!
<Pendulum> yes
<Mkaysi> Yes
<AlanBell> what do you think of the project list?
<AlanBell> any more to add to it?
<AlanBell> any that shouldn't be there?
<michaelwigle> Not that I can think. Miind you, my focus is more toward the accessibility aspects.
<Pendulum> michaelwigle: oh good! come join us in #ubuntu-accessibility :)
<AlanBell> yes, I would expect many people to have a particular focus
<hakimsheriff> I would think the list is small but since the team is just starting out it think it is good
<AlanBell> however it is also a way to get people who don't fit into any of the target demographics to feel that they can contribute to those teams
<Pendulum> :)
<michaelwigle> I intend on doing that as well. Just not today.
<michaelwigle> Sorry, have to run but will try to keep up through the mailing list. I couldn't move this other appointment.
<AlanBell> ok, thanks for your time michaelwigle
<AlanBell> ok, so I think if we are in rough agreement on the purpose of the team (helping the teams) and the scope (the list of teams) then we could move on to the next topic
<hakimsheriff> I sugest you read the meeting logs
<AlanBell> I will put the logs on the wiki and mail the list
<AlanBell> [TOPIC] Activities we can do
<MootBot> New Topic:  Activities we can do
<AlanBell> so I have a little list of things, quite willing to have stuff added to it
<AlanBell> ensuring meeting schedules of the teams that have meetings don't drift
<hakimsheriff> btw... hakimsheriff = hakimsheriff2 same person different devices
<AlanBell> meetings do get missed from time to time, but if multiple scheduled meetings in a row don't happen then we should help get that back on track
<hakimsheriff> yes that is important
<AlanBell> monthly team reports, reminding the teams to do them, and helping fill them out as required
<AlanBell> one thing I already do is maintain some monthly statistics for the Ubuntu Women team, that is the kind of activity I can see this team doing
<AlanBell> open to other ideas at this point
<Pendulum> I know as a team leader for one of the teams involved, I'd love it if U4A could help with raising profiles of teams
<hakimsheriff> Pendulum, You said it as I was typing!!!
<AlanBell> yes indeed
<Pendulum> there's only so many times AlanBell or I can blog about a11y without people just ignoring it, for example ;)
<hakimsheriff> Help raising profiles of new teams too
<AlanBell> and possibly helping to form new teams
<AlanBell> I did have an idea of an Ubuntu Younglings project, for children of known community members
<hakimsheriff> Do teens count as well?
<hakimsheriff> or just children
<AlanBell> there is the ubuntu youth team for that
<hakimsheriff> I would really like to help out with the Younglings Project
<AlanBell> the -youth project is one where continuity issues are inherent
<AlanBell> so easy for a bunch of enthusiastic members to leave as a school year starts or ends
<AlanBell> but other teams can also go quiet for long periods, a11y did for a time
<AlanBell> any more activities?
<AlanBell> oh, I will chuck one in to discuss
<hakimsheriff> I am a bit lost what is a11y?
<AlanBell> accessibility
<maco> hakimsheriff: abreviation for accessibility
<AlanBell> there are 11 letters between a and y
<hakimsheriff> creative, i like it!
<AlanBell> internationalisation also gets abbreviated to 118n
<maco> i18n you mean
<maco> and localisation is l10n
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> hi maco
<maco> hello. i'm at work. don't mind me
<AlanBell> there has been a bunch of recent discussions about UDS and the diversity and harassment policies
<AlanBell> I can see that as something that this team might end up getting involved in for the next UDS, but not this one coming
<AlanBell> too soon, too new
<AlanBell> although I know some individuals have be involved in it already
<AlanBell> any other activities to discuss?
<AlanBell> anything you think we shouldn't do?
<leoquant> noisy  hakimsheriff
<leoquant> ã
<hakimsheriff> sorry, I am trying to connect my phone to the IRC channel so I can use the text-to-speech on my phone So I don't have to constatnly be on this channel.
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on to the last topic
<AlanBell> [TOPIC] Resources for the team Wiki/IRC/Mailing list
<MootBot> New Topic:  Resources for the team Wiki/IRC/Mailing list
<AlanBell> so this one is just a list really
<AlanBell> we have the IRC channel #ubuntu-for-all
<AlanBell> we have a mailing list
<AlanBell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-for-all
<AlanBell> a chunk of the slowest wiki in the worldhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll
<Mkaysi> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll
<AlanBell> thanks Mkaysi, and the launchpad team at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-for-all
<AlanBell> is there anything else you would see as useful?
<hakimsheriff> nothing that I know of
<AlanBell> ok, does anyone have any other topics they would like to raise for discussion?
<hakimsheriff> We should raise the profile of this team
<hakimsheriff> Not many members yet
<AlanBell> I will blog about it, there are more members than are here at the moment
<hakimsheriff> What's your blog?
<AlanBell> 15 in the IRC channel and more on the mailing list
<AlanBell> it will be on planet.ubuntu.com
<AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/author/alanbell/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.theopensourcerer.com/author/alanbell/
<AlanBell> my main personal blog
<AlanBell> I don't imagine this will become a high profile team in itself really, but yes some more members would be good
<AlanBell> any more to cover?
<AlanBell> in which case, thanks for your time everyone, I will mail the list with minutes later for wider discussion
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:42.
<leoquant> thank you AlanBell
<AlanBell> also feel free to continue discussions in the #ubuntu-for-all channel
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-26
 * MichealH is here incase he forgets xD
<MichealH> Uhhh
<MichealH> AndrewMC: ping?
<skfin> Not starting well
<MichealH> :/
<skfin> Nobody responding at -council
 * MichealH boos :P
<skfin> Yea. indeed
<MichealH> I have a right to, They planned the nmeeting then do not show up :P
<skfin> :D
<MichealH> Yet, this is last minute me coming and I make it :D
<skfin> kvarley: Thanks for appearing :)
<kvarley> skfin: Thanks for the mention in the council, it notified me at least, sorry I'm late!
<skfin> Yea, no problem
<MichealH> kWe are waithing for AndrewMC or Zaxh
<MichealH> *Zach
<skfin> MichealH: I pinged them too
<MichealH> They have like 1000 pings now
<skfin> :D
<skfin> Well, thats their problem, they planned this meeting to be held right now and they are not here
<hakimsheriff> A team just started yesterday: Ubuntu-For-All, one of its goals is to make sure teams dont skip meetings, This team is on the list of teams to be followed
<skfin> Haha.
<skfin> They are solving a problem of skipped team meetings by creating an another team?
<MichealH> That is lame, but good :P
<hakimsheriff> thats just one of the things we will do
<MichealH> <popey> 14:17:33 <+zkriesse> NOTICE --- MEETING WILL BE ON SCHEDULE BUT IF ZKRIESSE IS NOT AROUND WILL AndrewMC or Daniel0108 take charge until he returns..sick he is...so
<MichealH> <popey> 14:17:41 <+zkriesse> THAT IS ALL
<MichealH> <popey> 14:18:04 <+zkriesse> Any pings to this user will result in a NULL value...he is asleep...automated message
<MichealH> <MichealH> Daniel0108: ping :P
<hakimsheriff> many other things too
<skfin> Okay.
<hakimsheriff> so i uess +zkriesse isnt coming
<popey> 17:12:12 < skfin> They are solving a problem of skipped team meetings by creating an another team?
<popey> no
<skfin> Its not our fault that there are no anyone to keep the chair
<popey> anyone else in the team can step up and take the chair, assuming you have an agenda?
<MichealH> Everyone on -council is asleep i guess
<skfin> kvarley: ?
<skfin> MichealH: Yea, I pinged them, anyone exept kvarley
<MichealH> kvarley: Save our bacon!
<kvarley> I'm here
<hakimsheriff> finnaly!!!
<hakimsheriff> someone shows up!!!
<MichealH> kvarley: If you cannot thake the meeting I will
<MichealH> *take
<skfin> MichealH: You are not a member of council?
<MichealH> <popey> anyone else in the team can step up and take the chair, assuming you have an agenda?
<skfin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuYouth/Meetings#General%20Agenda%20Items%20and%20Proposals
<kvarley> !meeting
<ubottu> Team meetings are held in #ubuntu-meeting - See Â« /msg ubottu logs Â» for transcripts.
<MichealH> kvarley: I know how to drive the wild MootBot, shall I do so?
<kvarley> If you are present for this meeting please make your presence know. "0/" will do fine.
<hakimsheriff> O/
<skfin> o/
<MichealH> kvarley: Okay, i shall drive the bot
<MichealH> kvarley: We need it logged
<MichealH> kvarley: +1?
<kvarley> MichealH are you on the council?
<MichealH> Or shall I give you a crash course? :P
<MichealH> kvarley: Nope...
<skfin> +1 for crash course
<kvarley> MichealH - PM'ed
<kvarley> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:20. The chair is kvarley.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kvarley> #TOPIC Welcoming message
<MichealH> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuYouth/Meetings#General%20Agenda%20Items%20and%20Proposals
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuYouth/Meetings#General%20Agenda%20Items%20and%20Proposals
<MichealH> kvarley:use [Topic]
<kvarley> [TOPIC] Welcoming message
<MootBot> New Topic:  Welcoming message
 * MichealH likes this crash-course :P
<kvarley> Welcome, all to the meeting
<kvarley> The pre-arranged chairs/leaders of this meeting aren't here at this given time so I am trying to fill their place.
<kvarley> [TOPIC] Topic 1 - Project(s) Status & Completion Dates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Topic 1 - Project(s) Status & Completion Dates
<skfin> Welll...
<skfin> I could talk about the planet
<kvarley> Request A Status Update From Current Mentors.
<skfin> Okay, does this make any sense? There are three people attending, we have a chair who dont know what to do, which is obvious, because nobody has taught him.
<kvarley> [VOTE] Re-schedule this meeting for a different time where more members are present?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Re-schedule this meeting for a different time where more members are present?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<kvarley> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kvarley. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<skfin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from skfin. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<hakimsheriff> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from hakimsheriff. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MichealH> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from MichealH. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<kvarley> Ok, that's decided
<kvarley> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:25.
<skfin> Rescheduling meetings is not ok, but what other could we do...
<hakimsheriff> wow, thats why ubuntu for all is a good idea
<skfin> Yea :S
<skfin> hakimsheriff: But could we do something else rather than rescehduling the meeting?
<skfin> I think no.
 * MichealH goes back to his 120 emails
<MichealH> Oh wow
<MichealH> I have 10101 emails in total xD
<skfin> MichealH: 21 mails?
<skfin> Lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-27
<IdleOne> ircc meeting?
<nhandler> Meeting time. jussi, topyli, elky, tsimpson ?
<tsimpson> \o
<jussi> o/
<topyli> o/
<jussi> right, who is chairing this thime?
<jussi> time even
<nhandler> I can I guess
<nhandler> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is nhandler.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Add eir to #ubuntu
<MootBot> New Topic:  Add eir to #ubuntu
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<nhandler> I added a long explanation on the wiki that I would suggest reading if you haven't already: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal#Add%20eir%20to%20%23ubuntu
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal#Add%20eir%20to%20%23ubuntu
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal#Add%20eir%20to%20%23ubuntu
<nhandler> So any comments on adding eir? This is only for #ubuntu for now, but if we find it beneficial, we could discuss adding it to other core channels in the future
<jussi> nhandler: could you tell us in dot point for the benefits of eir? Is it just the auto ban removal and nagging?
<topyli> i certainly like the autoexpiring bans
<jussi> Also, you mentioned it notices -ops - people may object to that... (speaking from experience...)
<nhandler> jussi: The main benefit is that you can set a comment/expiration date for bans/quiets/certain mode changes. This would make it easy to have certain bans automatically get removed (or have eir nag you) after a certain period of time (to avoid banning and forgetting)
<jussi> I like that a ot
<jussi> lot*
<jussi> Im worried about potential issues with notices (people have complained in the past)
<nhandler> jussi: It can notice a person/channel of our choice. And personally, I still think that notices about bans are something our OPs should be able to put up with. They can adjust their own bans on a per-ban basis, and this will hopefully help keep us from forgetting and having to do a mass ban clear every few months
<nhandler> It might also provde helpful with the FloodBot bans
<ikonia> is this as a supliment to ubottu's BT capabilities, or in place of
<nhandler> ikonia: Supplement
<jussi> ikonia: supplement
<jussi> hehe
<nhandler> Ubottu would still be used for tracking users over long periods of time
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ikonia> so what's the short benifit it does beyond what ubottu does already ?
<ikonia> (or I can go and read the link if that's easier)
<jussi> ikonia: auto ban removal and better nagging
<nhandler> ikonia: I'd read the link, but ubottu just nags after a week. With eir, I could have it nag me after a day, or auto-remove the ban after a month.
<ikonia> so would the nagging in ubottu be disabled ?
<tsimpson> yes
<ikonia> (reading link now)
<tsimpson> for #ubuntu anyway
<nhandler> We would hopefully also get it so ubottu could parse the ban comments set in eir so we have them in the BT
<ikonia> so we would set the ban comments in eir now ?
<tsimpson> the bot would parse the comments you give to eir and put it into the BT
<ikonia> can it do that now ?
<jussi> I think we eventually will have this all in ubottu, but for now, this is best case
<ikonia> the only benifit I'm reading is that it can auto remove bans
<jussi> ikonia: I think tsimpson will have it working in pretty short order
<ikonia> jussi: then I don't think we should be implementing something until it is working
<ikonia> the comments in BT are quite important
<tsimpson> ikonia: it does nagging better than ubottu does now, and it does auto-removal
<ikonia> does it send a better pm ?
<jussi> ikonia: it wont be implemented until it does, but we need to take the decision to implement it
<ikonia> tsimpson: how does it nag better ?
<ikonia> jussi: then I suggest not implimenting it and carring on with ubottu development
<tsimpson> ikonia: because ubottu just nags after one week, and that's all it can do
<jussi> ikonia: it can nag in different intevals than the standard one week
<ikonia> I don't want more nagging (personally)
<nhandler> ikonia: You can adjust how long it waits before nagging. Then, once it nags you can decide whether to change the expiration so it nags agin in another few days. It also includes the comment that was set (so you know what the ban was about)
<IdleOne> Can the good part of eir be implemented into ubottu ?
<IdleOne> parts*
<nhandler> IdleOne: There has been a bug open for a few years about that.
<jussi> IdleOne: as we said, thats the plan
<tsimpson> we need to decide if we want to go ahead with eir before ubottu is modified to work with it
<jussi> IdleOne: but for now, making this work is best case
<ikonia> I don't see the benifit to adding a bot to work with a bot, when we have a working bot that can be developed
<jussi> ikonia: the fix forworking with eir is small, the adding capability is large
<nhandler> For one thing, we shouldn't need to or want to re-invent the wheel for every new feature we want
<ikonia> unless ubottu is failing at delivering something, I don't see the need to add another bot
<nhandler> ikonia: It is failing at delivering this functionality currently
<ikonia> nhandler: which functionaltiy ?
<ikonia> sorry, I' missing what ubottu is failing to deliver on
<topyli> the autoexpiry, the configurable nags, as stated
<ikonia> I don't feel ubottu is faiing
<tsimpson> it fails at configuring the notification period and it fails at having the ability to remove bans/quiets automatically
<ikonia> I'd live to see more work on the floodbot replacemnt that we are being held to randsom with at the moment
<nhandler> ikonia: Basically, as can be seen by our long ban lists and our need to do a mass-clear every few months, people are setting and forgetting about their bans. ubottu will nag once after a week or so, but that is it. People often simply ignore this if they aren't quite ready to remove the ban or can't remember what it is.
<ikonia> I don't want a bot to auto remove my bans
<tsimpson> with ubottu, you get nagged after 1 week, and that's it
<tsimpson> it doesn't check if it's a long term ban
<tsimpson> it doesn't check if it should nag again
<ikonia> nhandler: I don't personally want more nagging,
<nhandler> ikonia: You can adjust that on a per-ban basis
<ikonia> I don't appreciate the current nagging so a bot that nags more isn't a benifit to me
<topyli> ikonia: this doesn't interfere with the floodbot development
<ikonia> topyli: great
<tsimpson> especially in #ubuntu, it's important our ops remove unneeded bans
<jussi> nhandler: perhaps its worth providing an example of eir and what you might give it
<nhandler> jussi: Usage examples are on http://freenode.net/eir.shtml
<nhandler> That shows the various commands and examples on using them
<ikonia> up to you guys of course, but for me this is a waste of effort and adding another layer of complexity for no real benifit (for me personally)
<IdleOne> nhandler: does using eir change how I use chanserv.py or auto_bleh?
<nhandler> IdleOne: No. Although you might want to use /aq instead of /at in auto_bleh and then use eir to set when the quiet should be removed
<nhandler> /aq is a quiet, /at is a quiet auto_bleh removes after a 15 minute period (or whatever the user set)
<IdleOne> so basically instead of ubottu messaging me for comment eir will be doing it. I just need to learn the new syntax for eir.
<jussi> Is anyone still unclear on what eir does?
<jussi> IdleOne: yup
<ikonia> the links nhandler has provider are quite solid
<ikonia> provided even
<jussi> IdleOne: it has a few more options ;)
<bazhang> nags more and autoremoves bans
<IdleOne> I don't like the idea of auto removal of bans after 24 hours. I would like to see it extended to 7 days.
<topyli> bazhang: it can nag less if you like :)
<jussi> bazhang: not more, (well can be) but more configurabe
<tsimpson> IdleOne: it won't auto remove by default
<nhandler> IdleOne: If you read the defaults I suggested, it would simply nag after 24 hours, not autoremove
<IdleOne> ok
<IdleOne> sounds good to me
<tsimpson> IdleOne: and it'll be completely configurable per ban/quiet
<bazhang> IdleOne, does it affect chanserv.py?
<nhandler> bazhang: No
<IdleOne> bazhang: not that I can see right now
<bazhang> nhandler, thanks
<tsimpson> chanserv.py doesn't do auto-removal anyway, so it won't
<IdleOne> tsimpson: yes it does
<tsimpson> and eir works even if you /quit
<IdleOne> seveas added a timed q and b
<IdleOne> tsimpson: there is that, with chanserv we have to be online
<nhandler> It is also worth noting (if you haven't already noticed) that eir is used and developed by staff in #freenode and #defocus
<tsimpson> well then the same as auto_bleh, just don't use auto-removal parts
<IdleOne> ok. I'm ok with testing eir.
<nhandler> Do the defaults I noted look sane?
<jussi> nhandler: to me they do
<jussi> Perhaps its worth a defaults review next meeting
<topyli> yes. we'll tweak if needed
<IdleOne> yeah.
<jussi> Ã¶lÃ¶lÃ¶lÃ¶lÃ¶lÃ¶lllllllllÃ¶Ã¶Ã¶Ã¶Ã¶Ã¶Ã¶Ã¶Ã¶llllllllÃ¶
<nhandler> jussi: I'd prfer to give it a month
<jussi> err oops
<nhandler> It will take some time for OPs to get used to it and start really using it
<jussi> nhandler: fair enough
<IdleOne> ubottu's BT will still be used?
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<nhandler> [VOTE] Try eir in #ubuntu for a month (default expiration of 24h, notices to -ops, and nag instead of autoremove by default)
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Try eir in #ubuntu for a month (default expiration of 24h, notices to -ops, and nag instead of autoremove by default).
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> +1
<jussi> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<tsimpson> IdleOne: yeah, the only part of ubottu eir will replace is the nagging part, which is poor anyway
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<ikonia> whoaaa
<ikonia> notices to -ops ?
<ikonia> I thought we'd been through the notices to -ops stuff as jussi called out ?
<IdleOne> does eir send me notices or msg
<nhandler> It is really no different than what OPs /should/ already be doing (notifying when they set/remove a ban)
<nhandler> IdleOne: I can't remember. I can check in a minute
<IdleOne> notices sometimes get lost with xchat.
<ikonia> does it send notices to the channel, or pm's as ubottu does
<tsimpson> a ban can, and should, be removed by another ops
<tsimpson> people don't "own" bans
<IdleOne> it is supposed to send to it's own window but doesn't always
<ikonia> sorry, I didn't pickup on the notice to -ops stuff earlier, I thought jussi had covered it off
<ikonia> (not seen any discussion on this on the mail list, have I missed it) ?
<IdleOne> tsimpson: sometimes it is hard to decide if a ban set by another op can/should be removed as comments are not always available
<tsimpson> eir will have the comment for the ban
<IdleOne> tsimpson: what i mean is that not all ops comment bans
<tsimpson> and other comments will still be in the BT
<ikonia> sorry, I don't think this should be implemented until eir can sync with BT
<ikonia> storing comments in two places is not good.
<jussi> ikonia: it wont be!
<ikonia> jussi: won't what ?
<jussi> be implemented until that happens, but we need to decide to do the work
<ikonia> apologies if I'm missing something obvious
<ikonia> jussi: ah, now I see what you're saying, sorry
<jussi> :)
<tsimpson> I'm certainly not going to hack on ubottu if we aren't even going to use eir
<ikonia> I thought you where suggesting it won't be implimented until the bot is implimented
<jussi> aye ;)
<ikonia> implemented even
<niko> uBOTu-fr used something similar to eir
<nhandler> Hello mquin. We were talking about adding eir in #ubuntu. One concern was that it uses notices to notify the OP channel instead of normal MSGs. I know there was a reason for that and was hoping you could explain
<jussi> o/ mquin
<mquin> nhandler: it uses notices when responding to events on irc - normal behaviour as per the original RFC
<nhandler> Ah, ok. I thought it was something like that but I wasn't positive
<IdleOne> so instead of the op who set the ban getting a notice, a generic notice to the channel will be sent and an active op can review the ban?
<ikonia> jussi: so how does that fit in with the request from operators for ubottu to not notice the channels ?
<nhandler> IdleOne: The OP setting the ban will get a message sent privately to them requesting a comment be set
<IdleOne> nhandler: I am asking about when the ban "expires"
<ikonia> ah, so the message won't go to the channel, cool
<IdleOne> sorry if I am not understanding or making myself clear on what I am trying to understand :)
<jussi> right, so shal we quickly now cover the standing items and move on? We can return to this at the tail end of the meeting
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<tsimpson> we can just agree that in theory we want eir
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<tsimpson> and if we get the kings worked out, we'll use it
<tsimpson> *kinks
<tsimpson> there are no kings in eir ;)
<nhandler> [AGREE] We want eir, but need to look into integration with ubottu and the notices
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<nhandler> I don't see any new bugs
<jussi> nor I.
<topyli> i haven't done the stats, just realized
<jussi> So, the bug parsing in #u?
<nhandler> For actions, tsimpson was to enable bug parsing for #u, topyli was going to do stats for the trial period, elky was to send the email, jussi was to document some namespace limits, tsimpson was to update the wiki re:cloaks, send email, and talk to staff
<tsimpson> done, done, done, and done
<nhandler> Awesome tsimpson !
<topyli> not done
<jussi> I havent yet documented that, but Ive got thpoughts together. will attempt to get it don this week.
<nhandler> [ACTION] jussi to document thoughts on namespace limits
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jussi to document thoughts on namespace limits
<nhandler> [ACTION] topyli to do stats for trial ubottu period (re: bug parsing in #ubuntu)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to do stats for trial ubottu period (re: bug parsing in #ubuntu)
<topyli> i figure i'll still do the stats for two weeks, as per the original plan
<nhandler> Sounds good topyli
<nhandler> And it looks like elky sent the email
<tsimpson> topyli: just do the stats from enabling to now, a larger dataset gives more accurate results
<topyli> true
<nhandler> I'll handle the post-meeting tasks
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to do post-meeting tasks
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to do post-meeting tasks
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Change Ubuntu IRC Members to restricted
<MootBot> New Topic:  Change Ubuntu IRC Members to restricted
<nhandler> jussi: Care to summarize the issue breifly?
<jussi> We have random people applying to the team, and no one putting names on the agenda. if people want to apply, the proceedure is put names on the agenda
<jussi> No need to have it so randoms apply to the LP team
<nhandler> I tend to agree. It is not too much work to manually add accepted members to the team afterwards
<jussi> (as most know, there are people who randomy apply to lots of different teams)
<jussi> nhandler: also, this is what we do for cloaks (almost)
<nhandler> Yep
<topyli> agreed
<nhandler> Any other thoughts on this?
<jussi> lets vote
<nhandler> [VOTE] Make Ubuntu IRC Members team restricted
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Make Ubuntu IRC Members team restricted.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<jussi> +1
<topyli> 01
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<jussi> tsimpson: *prod*
<tsimpson> +i
<tsimpson> i?
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<topyli> :)
 * tsimpson closes his codez
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nhandler> [AGREED] Make Ubuntu IRC Members Restricted
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Make Ubuntu IRC Members Restricted
<nhandler> Does someone want that action (and to update the wiki pages regarding getting membership)
<tsimpson> we should also reject the pending members while we're at it
<nhandler> tsimpson: +1
<topyli> the !wannabeanop factoid (or similar) also refers to an old blog post of mine, which will now be inaccurate
<nhandler> I can take this action I guess
<bazhang> canibeanop
<tsimpson> topyli: that's different thing though
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to change Ubuntu IRC Members Team to restricted, reject pending members, and update wiki and factoids
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to change Ubuntu IRC Members Team to restricted, reject pending members, and update wiki and factoids
<tsimpson> IRC Member Vs IRC Operator
<topyli> oh yeah
<bazhang> what's the distinction?
<nhandler> bazhang: IRC Members are Ubuntu Members but you get membership via the IRCC
<jussi> bazhang: member is ubuntu member through irc contributions
<tsimpson> nhandler: but not IRC operators
<tsimpson> just making that clear from the above
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Document expected behavior of people wearing ubuntu/member/* cloaks
<MootBot> New Topic:  Document expected behavior of people wearing ubuntu/member/* cloaks
<bazhang> so no membership for non-member ops
<bazhang> ie restricted
<nhandler> rww doesn't appear to be here
<jussi> So looks like rww isnt about. do we have background on whats being asked here?
<tsimpson> bazhang: all restricted means is that people who want to join have to do it properly, rather than just applying to the team and nothing else
<IdleOne> I think I can talk a little about it
<tsimpson> like people randomly joining LP teams
<bazhang> tsimpson, okay thanks
<nhandler> Not really. But my feelings tend to be that if someone is not acting appropriately with an Ubuntu Member cloak, it might be best to have the CC involved.
<IdleOne> basically what rww asked was what the expected behaviour of an @ubuntu/member is when not in Ubuntu forums/IRC/Email
<nhandler> It looks like topyli can present rww's item, but he has to run to the store. So we are going to quickly swap the last two items
<nhandler> [TOPIC] #ubuntu-ops-team creation
<MootBot> New Topic:  #ubuntu-ops-team creation
<tsimpson> well, as an Ubuntu member in general, you have signed the CoC and agreed to abide by it
<tsimpson> but we aren't going to police other IRC channels
<tsimpson> remember that you *are* representing Ubuntu though
<nhandler> jussi: You are up
<IdleOne> tsimpson: the question is how far does that accountability extend
<nhandler> IdleOne, tsimpson: We will come back to this
<IdleOne> k
<jussi> nhandler: I think this has been pretty well discussed on the ML, and has had enough time there
<jussi> also discussed in -ops iirc
<IdleOne> it was
<nhandler> I'm still against this item. I think instead of moving the innappropriate comments to a private channel, we should be encouraging ours OPs to step away from the keyboard when they feel the desire to make such a comment
<jussi> Unless there are objections, Im happy to just vote on it.
<bazhang> nhandler, indeed
<ikonia> nhandler: do freenode have any private channels ?
<bazhang> its fine to feel frustrated, natural even.
<ikonia> nhandler: (for staff to discuss issues)
<tsimpson> it's more of the case where trolls are actively reading the -ops log to bait our ops
<bazhang> but going off should be discouraged
<tsimpson> the new channel will be CoC compliant at all times, and still logged, but not publicly
<IdleOne> tsimpson: and will be ops only/
<IdleOne> ?
<IdleOne> by ops I include ircc and cc
<ikonia> if the known problem users where just dismissed without the whole sham of discussing their "ban removal" this issue can be dropped
<jussi> IdleOne: ops + selected others (such as representatives from large loco chans)
<tsimpson> yeah, but not just core channel ops
<nhandler> So if such a channel were to be made, it wouldn't be used as a place for OPs to simply make inappropriate comments about trolls/other users that they just want to keep out of the public logs and it would simply be used for private OP-related discussions?
<tsimpson> it will be +i (as I understand it)
<IdleOne> jussi: I would like to suggest inviting a rep from each approved loco
<jussi> yes
<bazhang> no need for such a channel.
<ikonia> nhandler: if it's used for stupid comments as you are suggesting then it's failed
<jussi> nhandler: thats the point of having it logged for the CC
<ikonia> bazhang: there wouldn't be if you could say "$X is being a problem again" without 10 known problem users emailing the CC to say "look at the bias, remove this op now"
<IdleOne> I would hope we don't resort to "stupid" comments but for actual discussion on how to handle a problem user.
<nhandler> I'd be willing to try it on the condition that if it really isn't being used appropriately (i.e. turns into an OP social channel or channel for making inappropriate comments or something similar) that we shut it down
<bazhang> the problem is people staying up / moderating too many hours consecutively and getting short fuses
<ikonia> I'm sure that can be part of it
<bazhang> just take a break when it reaches that point.
<IdleOne> bazhang: that is part of the problem
<ikonia> bazhang: re-read what I put
<ikonia> (or read if it was lagging)
<IdleOne> but the log readers who msg you to instigate and bait don't help
<ikonia> there is a larger issue that known problems users aren't just dismiseed
<bazhang> ikonia, yes, I saw, but root4rded et all will pick on people no matter what we say. so best to step away when it gets to be too much
<bazhang> we need to react less to said bait then.
<jussi> nhandler: I dont have a probem with that - either shutting it down or removing those who refuse to comply with the rules.
<ikonia> bazhang: it's not just about protecting the individual, I'd like to be able to warn you of a situation without the IRCC being mailed about it as showing bias, or some other silly issue that then has to be investigated according to policy
<nhandler> bazhang: +1
<bazhang> ikonia, fair point.
<jussi> any other concerns?
<IdleOne> also ircc should expect an email about r00t4rd3d being mentioned in this meeting
<bazhang> who cares.
<IdleOne> but that has nothing to do with anything
<ikonia> IdleOne: that's a seperate issue that we have to go through these dances with these users knowing their intention
<ikonia> bazhang: I'd love to say "agreed" but policy has to be followed
<nhandler> [VOTE] #ubuntu-ops-team creation (with review of channel 2 weeks after creation)
<MootBot> Please vote on:  #ubuntu-ops-team creation (with review of channel 2 weeks after creation).
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jussi> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<IdleOne> plus1
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<bazhang> so no idlers there either? or completely secret and hidden
<nhandler> [AGREED] #ubuntu-ops-team creation (with review of channel 2 weeks after creation)
<MootBot> AGREED received:  #ubuntu-ops-team creation (with review of channel 2 weeks after creation)
<jussi> tsimpson: are you able to take care of the logging via ubottu?
<nhandler> bazhang: The plan was +i
<tsimpson> bazhang: invite only
<tsimpson> jussi: I think so
<nhandler> Who wants the actions to get this channel sorted out and send out the relevant emails?
<nhandler> tsimpson: ?
<jussi> me
<nhandler> That works too ;)
<topyli> :)
<nhandler> [ACTION] jussi to get channel sorted out and send out necessary announcements
<jussi> nhandler: tsimpson can take care of the logging
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jussi to get channel sorted out and send out necessary announcements
<bazhang> thanks for addressing my concerns.
<nhandler> [ACTION] tsimpson to sort out the channel logging
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tsimpson to sort out the channel logging
<nhandler> Let's go back to rww's item
<topyli> ok
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Document expected behavior of people wearing ubuntu/member/* cloaks
<MootBot> New Topic:  Document expected behavior of people wearing ubuntu/member/* cloaks
<topyli> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/25/%23ubuntu-ops.html#t06:32
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/25/%23ubuntu-ops.html#t06:32
<topyli> rww requests an update to IRC/Cloaks on behaviour *outside* our namespace while wearing cloaks
<nhandler> If it is outside our namespace, I would think the issue would fall to the CC rather than the IRCC (it is the same as an Ubuntu Member acting inappropriately on a non-Ubuntu website)
<nhandler> If they decide the user is not acting appropriately and revoke the membership, we would obviously also revoke the cloak
<tsimpson> I'd just say, be mindful that you are representing Ubuntu while wearing the cloak
<topyli> i agree that cloak-wearing members do represent ubuntu in general though, even though this is not an irc issue as such. a reminder on the wiki page wouldn't hurt
<ikonia> are you kidding me /
<ikonia> half the developers wear ubuntu cloaks and swear in the ubuntu channels ?
<tsimpson> it's really nothing more than just being an Ubuntu member, or using your @ubuntu.com address
<nhandler> There is nothing that says you can't swear. It really depends on the context ikonia.
<ikonia> you're worried about people outside our name space when it's actually going on within the name space
<topyli> ikonia: obviously we behave appropriately to each channel
<ikonia> really ?
<ikonia> so there are ubuntu channels that allow bad language ?
<ikonia> that's acceptable ( I thought the requirements for an official ubuntu channel where being drawn up)
<tsimpson> #ubuntu channels are only required to abide by the CoC
<nhandler> ikonia: Yes, just saying a swear does not violate the CoC. The closest thing iirc is the 'Be Respectful' part
<tsimpson> everything else is opt-in
<IdleOne> so if #ubuntu-* has a culture of cursing it's ok?
<ikonia> really ?
<ikonia> so if I say "fucking cool" now, that's acceptable ?
<ikonia> as I think it's cool
<ikonia> (I don't)
<nhandler> ikonia: In what channel?
<ikonia> this channel
<jussi> No.
<topyli> this is a public meeting :)
<ikonia> how about in #ubuntu-devel
<ikonia> topyli: apologies, it's an example
<jussi> Id like to point out the language and subject part on the IRC guidelines
<IdleOne> so what are the irc guidelines for?
<ikonia> jussi: I know, that's why I'm so surprised
<nhandler> Those are enforced in the core channels
<tsimpson> randomly swearing in channels is not being respectful
<nhandler> The CoC is for all channels
<ikonia> nhandler: is this a core channel ?
<nhandler> Yes
<jussi> ikonia: its up to the chanops - there can be leeway given
<ikonia> tsimpson: I agree, so again I ask #ubuntu-devel
<ikonia> ooh my word how weak
<tsimpson> I haven't seen anyone in there just random start swearing just because "they can"
<topyli> ikonia: it's sad if -devel has a bad culture on that issue
<ikonia> topyli: using swearing in conversation is not respectul
<ikonia> oops, that was for tsimpson
<jussi> We put the guidelines up, and to a large extent, we expect them followed. But just as some chans accept paastes, others have different tolerences on language,
<ikonia> topyli: I agree, I just wonder why we are worried about representation outside out namespace but don't hold it inside
<topyli> ikonia: let's hold it then. i'm not an op on -devel
<nhandler> ikonia: Read what was said. The CC would be the folks to really deal with that
<ikonia> nhandler: even inside out name space ?
<ikonia> are the ubuntu IRC council responsiable for the whole of the ubuntu-* name space, or just core channels ?
<tsimpson> the current issue is about behaviour outside of the namespace
<ikonia> that doesn't stop you responding to my question
<ikonia> as I'm raising the fact that we do not control behaviour within the name space
<topyli> that's a different failure
<tsimpson> ikonia: this has been explained to you a few times, the IRC council coordinate with other councils and their channels
<nhandler> ikonia: We have the delegation from the CC and freenode for all of the namespace, but we also delegate some authority to the individual channel OPs
<ikonia> or shall I drop it and we can move on
<tsimpson> I'm not going to explain it yet again
<ikonia> tsimpson: clearly you need to as it conflicts with nhandler's statment
<ikonia> you ARE responsible
<nhandler> ikonia: No it doesn't
<topyli> hi rww :)
<ikonia> I'll drop this then as it's clear you don't want to address it
<tsimpson> if you think the IRCC should act without care or concern for another governing council, then I can only say I disagree
<ikonia> tsimpson: not at all, I don't think that at all, but overall ownership is the council
<topyli> rww: good timing. we were just discussing your item before moving on to ircc metaphysics
<nhandler> So do we want to add a small reminder to the wiki page?
<tsimpson> the CC owns everything Ubuntu, we are delegated from them to look after IRC land
<ikonia> tsimpson: ok, that's as I understood it also
<IdleOne> So how does the CC feel about swearing in some irc channels and not others?
<rww> hey all, sorry I'm late >.>
<tsimpson> the CC are mainly concerned with CoC compliance
<ikonia> ok is bad language a Coc compliance ?
<nhandler> Depends on the situation
<ikonia> does it ??
<ikonia> language is offensive or not
<charlie-tca> I thought swearing was wrong if any person indicates they are offended by the language
<tsimpson> it does, there have times where it has clearly been used to attack others been issues brought to them about
<nhandler> charlie-tca: That is a big factor
<ikonia> in what situation is "fuck" acceptable ?
<tsimpson> ikonia: in #ubuntu, never, but that's because we chose to make it not acceptable there
<bazhang> the programming language presumably
<ikonia> in any ubuntu channel, what situation would "fuck" be acceptable
<IdleOne> if a person appears to be really stressed out and needing of release I could tell them "Go fuck yourself" ?
<nhandler> ikonia: If you have a particular situation you were offended by, we would be glad to review it (or refer it to the CC if necessary)
<tsimpson> charlie-tca: indeed, if someone in the channel asks you to stop, you should respect that
<ikonia> bazhang: touche'
<ikonia> nhandler: I'm offended by any bad language in any ubuntu channel
<bazhang> lets not abuse the rhetoric please
<IdleOne> not trying to abuse I am asking a question to a specific circumstance
<jussi> Peopes, I have other places to be, are we almost done?
<topyli> i'm offended by the poor treatment rww's agenda item is getting
<ikonia> topyli: agreed, I apologise
<nhandler> Can I get an answer to my previous question about if we want to add the comment to the wiki page?
<ikonia> and of course to rww
<tsimpson> we choose in the support channels to not allow it, this is in addition to enforcing the CoC
<IdleOne> nhandler: I think a comment to the wiki about remembering we represent Ubuntu as members would be fine
<jussi> nhandler: ++1
<tsimpson> I'm not going to get into a debate about which words may or may not be acceptable in a certain channel under an certain situation and in what context
<ikonia> tsimpson: I'll drop it, carry on as normal, my apologies
<nhandler> tsimpson, topyli: What do you think?
<topyli> i think a general reminder about being a representative of ubuntu is in order
<tsimpson> sure, that sounds good
<topyli> rww: do you have anything in particular in mind for the page?
<nhandler> [VOTE] Add note about representing Ubuntu as a member to the wiki page
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Add note about representing Ubuntu as a member to the wiki page.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<rww> I'm missing scrollback here, but I was originally told that CoC applies throughout freenode to people wearing ubuntu/member/* cloaks, hence the agenda item appearing. If /that's/ the case, it's rather more strong than a general reminder would imply (and if it's not the case, apologies for my lack of scrollback again)
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 4 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<tsimpson> rww: as an ubuntu member, you signed and agreed to abide by the CoC when representing Ubuntu
<nhandler> [AGREED] Add note about representing Ubuntu as a member to the wiki page
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Add note about representing Ubuntu as a member to the wiki page
<nhandler> Who wants to add the note?
<topyli> i can do it
<rww> tsimpson: k, that works then.
<nhandler> [ACTION] topyli to update wiki page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to update wiki page
<topyli> possibly with help from rww :)
<nhandler> :)
<tsimpson> suggestions for wording are appreciated :)
<jussi> ok, Im off. Sorry to leave you all.
<rww> I'll have a think once I stop juggling scrollback :)
<nhandler> For the eir issue of notices, we will discuss this a bit more (as well as work on the ubottu integration). We'll send out an email before it gets added to the channel though.
<topyli> jussi: we're through the agenda, so feel free :)
<nhandler> Thanks for coming
<bazhang> eir seems very uncontroversial at this point
<nhandler> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:31.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-20
<ara> o/
<roadmr> hello!
<ara> OK, we should get started
<roadmr> yay
<ara> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb 20 16:01:21 2012 UTC.  The chair is ara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<ara> welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly meeting #34
<ara> #topic Optical drive testing for Ubuntu Friendly (roadmr)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Optical drive testing for Ubuntu Friendly (roadmr)
<roadmr> hi all!
<roadmr> The situation is as follows. We now have a very nice automated CD writing test
<roadmr> what it does is, it asks for blank media, writes some files to it, and then tries to read them
<roadmr> this enables us to test reading and writing with just one test, thus being quicker for the user
<roadmr> the problem is, the way the test was designed, it would be the *only* CD test run
<roadmr> and the consequence for Ubuntu Friendly is that, if the drive supports writing, this test will ask the user for blank media
<roadmr> if the user has no blank media, the test will either fail or be skipped
<ara> o/
<roadmr> and since CD functionality is considered core, we'll be giving the system one star (fail) if the user happened to not have (or not want to waste) a blank disk
<roadmr> So for the time being we're still using only the read test for CD, and this awesome CD writing test is not used at all :)
<roadmr> We'd like some feedback on how to handle this, one of the ideas being to change the "coreness" of the CD tests, making them optional/additional
<roadmr> another possibility would be to rework this test so it behaves differently
<brendand> o/
<roadmr> and yet another would be the vaunted feature where checkbox supports various exit statuses so the test can say why it didn't run and not be considered an outright failure.
<roadmr> So that's the situation. Ideas anyone?
<roadmr> ara, you're first
<ara> hey
<ara> so, basically, we have three (and not two) types of tests: optional, core and skippable core
<ara> I think we need to keep 2 tests
<ara> the read one to be core, and the write one to be skippable
<ara> to have only one for Ubuntu Friendly is not the answer
<ara> as many people would skip the write one
<ara> and in the end no one would be testing even the reading capabilities
<ara> ..
<roadmr> OK, yes, the original proposal was to skip the read-only test entirely if the write one was runnable
<roadmr> brendand: your turn
<brendand> similar to what ara said
<brendand> it's fairly straightforward,
<brendand> any test which has a valid reason why it could not be run should be skippable
<brendand> i don't see how the read one should be core though. if the tester doesn't have a disc to test with we should really give the system one star?
<ara> brendand, agree
<ara> brendand, I stand corrected, both should be skippable
<roadmr> jedimike, could you remind us how the optical tests are considered right now? are they core-core or core-skippable? :)
<brendand> i guess in theory the wireless test for example could also not be testable, but in that case the hardware is so important it shouldn't be skippable
<jedimike> roadmr: let me check...
<brendand> for optical media i think a penalty is enough
<brendand> a further conundrum is if the drive doesn't have a write capability then it will be penalised
<brendand> even though it could never be expected to support that capability
<brendand> how to deal with that?
<brendand> ...
<jedimike> optical is core, in the 11.10 tests dvd-write, cdrom-write, read_sr1 and read_sr0 are core-skippable. In 12.04 they're core-core. Do we want the mappings and skipping lists copied over to the 12.04 config now?
<roadmr> jedimike: for 12.04 the whitelist shows only optical/detect and optical/read, there are no more write tests (at least not on the whitelist)
<jedimike> roadmr: ok, the category mappings still need to be copied across though, I'll get on to that.
<ara> roadmr, jedimike: I think we need an action item to coordinate and fix the mappings for 12.04
<jedimike> ara: ok. I'll get the category mappings done now, it won't take me more than a few minutes. Then we can do the skippable stuff later. Once we go to production, there'll need to be an action item to get the mappings copied from staging.
<roadmr> ara: also the whitelist could potentially still change, so I'd say not to set the mappings "in stone" until later
<ara> agree, but we need to start selecting the skippable
<ara> to start gathering data on staging
<ara> and be able to fix stuff
<ara> ..
<roadmr> ara: we can put the write test back, but keep the read one, it's a bit of duplication but it's the best way to collect all that data
<roadmr> ara: agreed, so the most pressing thing would be to look at the current whitelist and see how the tests are classified
<roadmr> anyone want to work with jedimike on this? :)
<roadmr> (I can do it)
<roadmr> [ACTION] jedimike and roadmr to review the current default checkbox whitelist to ensure core-core/core-skippable/skippable-skippable mappings still make sense
<meetingology> ACTION: jedimike and roadmr to review the current default checkbox whitelist to ensure core-core/core-skippable/skippable-skippable mappings still make sense
<roadmr> [ACTION] bladernr, roadmr and spineau to decide whether it makes sense to put the optical/write test back without removing the read one, so that functionality gets at least tested (will penalize if the user decides to skip)
<meetingology> ACTION: bladernr, roadmr and spineau to decide whether it makes sense to put the optical/write test back without removing the read one, so that functionality gets at least tested (will penalize if the user decides to skip)
<roadmr> anything else needed on this topic?
<ara> OK, let's move on!
<ara> #topic "The Eagle has landed" - Checkbox-qt now available in Precise, call for testing (roadmr)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: "The Eagle has landed" - Checkbox-qt now available in Precise, call for testing (roadmr)
<ara> roadmr, all yours (again)
<roadmr> heheh :) I blame bladernr
<roadmr> anyway - so yes, the new and shiny checkbox-qt interface for Checkbox has landed in Ubuntu.
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> As usual we'd appreciate help from everyone testing it and filing bugs so we can fix them and ensure the new UI is as usable as possible.
<roadmr> To use it, just apt-get install checkbox-qt
<roadmr> and run checkbox-qt instead of checkbox-gtk
<roadmr> So please test and either send your comments to the mailing list or file Launchpad bugs for the stuff that bugs you!
<roadmr> ..
<roadmr> cr3: go ahead!
<cr3> just to announce that we're still in the process of getting checkbox-qt on the desktop image but there's no significant blockers so far
<cr3> ..
<roadmr> cr3: awesome, thanks! yes, for now it requires manual installation but the package is tiny so the pain should be minimal
<roadmr> that's all really on this topic :)
<ara> OK, any other questions or comments on the topic?
<ara> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<ara> Anybody else has any other topics to talk about?
<ara> without the else, of course
<ara> if roadmr has other topics he's more than welcome to share them :)
 * roadmr has nothing else :(
<ara> going once...
<ara> going twice...
<ara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Feb 20 16:30:42 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-20-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-20-16.01.html
<ara> thanks all!
<roadmr> thanks! bye!
<pitti> kees: can you chair today? cjwatson is off for enlarging his family :)
<pitti> and you'd be next alphabetically I think
<jono> is the TB meeting now?
<soren> o/
<soren> jono: Yup.
<jono> cool
<soren> Well, or supposed to be, at least.
<jono> hey soren, hows things?
 * stgraber waves
<ajmitch> hi
<jono> howdy stgraber
 * mhall119 waves
<soren> jono: Gosh. Good question :)
<jono> :-)
<soren> jono: Nah, it's all good, I guess. Just almost too busy to stop and realise it.
<soren> jono: So thanks for forcing me to :)
<jono> indeed :-)
<jono> hehe
<pitti> hey soren
<soren> pitti: o/
<pitti> stgraber: there?
<soren> pitti: Did you ping anyone else besides kees?
<stgraber> pitti: yep
<pitti> soren: not yet
<pitti> pinged mdz now
<pitti> mhall119: are you there to discuss your topic?
<pitti> seems to be our only topic today anyway
<mhall119> pitti: yes
<pitti> I didn't scan the ML thoroughly, though, I just returned back home (was on vac today)
<jono> do we know if sabdfl can make it?
<pitti> jono: he's not a regular member of TB any more, so only attending some meetings
<jono> np
<pitti> so, seems kees is off as well
<pitti> and I'm next on the list, so
<pitti> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb 20 21:08:58 2012 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<pitti> #topic action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
<pitti> kees to perform brainstorm review
<pitti> I think we can safely drop this one now, as the next one is due in March
<pitti> Laney and wendar to get trademark policy updated wrt remixes
<pitti> ^ do you happen to be online?
<wendar> pitti: we've submitted a ticket for it
<wendar> just a sec, will look for the ticket #
<pitti> wendar: thanks
<pitti> so, sounds like "in progress"
<wendar> also, we had a suggestion about adding some information to the extension repository policy
<wendar> "If the software does not allow redistribution, document this clearly in the debian/copyright file."
<wendar> with supporting documentation suggesting to add this as a comment in DEP5 format
<pitti> I guess remixes need to carefully go through the licenses of partner anyway
<wendar> we talked some with SPDX about whether they had any standard way of tagging non-redistributable software
<wendar> and, they said no
<wendar> some standard comment seemed helpful
<soren> Sorry, "SPDX"?
<wendar> soren: that's the group that's working on license metadata
<wendar> like DEP5, but more general
<soren> What's it short for?
<wendar> skaet is one of the leaders of the group
<wendar> "Software Package Data Exchange"
<wendar> spdx.org
<soren> Cool. Thanks.
<wendar> just a side conversation to see if we could standardize on prior art
<wendar> the main idea is just to provide reasonable notification to the consumers of the packages
<wendar> and, something that can be scanned automatically, so it's not an enormous task of checking each package in a remix to see if you can remix the remix
<wendar> But,  no need to go into specific implementation details in the ExtensionRepositoryPolicy
<wendar> Would you all be comfortable adding "If the software does not allow redistribution, document this clearly in the debian/copyright file."
<wendar> to the current policy?
<wendar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExtensionRepositoryPolicy
<wendar> under 2.3 "Copyright Considerations"
<wendar> (no rush, can be considered and held over to the next meeting)
<pitti> actually this is alreayd the point of the copyright file
<pitti> but pointing it out more explicitly/machine readable sounds fine and straightforward
<soren> Yeah, I have no problem with that.
<wendar> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content/+bug/933187
<ubottu> Error: launchpad bug 933187 not found
<pitti> nice, fix committed already
<pitti> wendar: thanks for the update!
<pitti> #topic Can an ARB exception be made allowing Scopes packages to depend on Lens packages in extras - mhall119
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Can an ARB exception be made allowing Scopes packages to depend on Lens packages in extras - mhall119
<pitti> ah, right, right now extras pacakges can only depend on Ubuntu packages, not to each other, right?
<jono> yes
<mhall119> pitti: right, the current policy is that one package in extras can't depend on another in extra
<pitti> I see how that might be required for libraries, but what was the general reason for this?
<mhall119> but the Unity API encourages separate development of lenses and scopes
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-February/001205.html
<mhall119> tl;dr, it makes it harder to remove problem packages from extras if other packages in extras might depend on them
<wendar> note that in the general ExtensionRepositoryPolicy, packages in Extras can depend on other packages in Extras
<stgraber> (FWIW, my opinion described in that ML thread hasn't changed over the past few weeks, I'm still definitely against this change)
<wendar> (this is because it's generic for all)
<wendar> but, Extras specifically doesn't permit libraries
<mhall119> If not a general rule change, I would like to at least get a specific exception for the case of lenses and scopes
<wendar> independent libraries
<mhall119> I have a list of 61 lenses and scopes being developed
<mhall119> so far only 6 have gone through the ARB process
<jono> my worry here is that we have an enormous number of scopes and lenses in development, and the ARB is a perfect avenue for review and inclusion, but with this dependency restriction we are effectively blocking scopes from the ARB
<mhall119> 29 of those are scopes that live independently from the lens they extend
<jono> and I am not confident that the average scope/lens dev is going to be able to get their software into the archive via the traditional upload process
<ajmitch> a lense isn't exactly a library, it's more an app for which the scopes are plugins
<mhall119> ajmitch: except that the Unity API allows the scope to run in a separate, independent process
<mhall119> and community over dbus
<pitti> so if we'd pull a scope from extras, what would the lenses do?
<pitti> AFAICS we'd need to remove them from extras as well, right?
<ajmitch> mhall119: right, plugin in the data sense rather than sharing the same process
<mhall119> pitti: the lens tells the Dash how to display results from the scope
<soren> stgraber: So you'd prefer that people lump them together in a single binary package?
<stgraber> soren: into a single source package. Multiple binary from a single source is already allowed in extras
<mhall119> pitti: one lens can have multiple, independent scopes, that provide it with data to display in the dash
<pitti> mhall119: would it not make sense to build them from a single source?
<pitti> they seem related
<pitti> ah, ok
<mhall119> pitti: they don't have to be
<mhall119> I can write a scope for the Music lens right now
<pitti> so if the scope ceases to exist, they would just not display data any more
<mhall119> the Music lens in in Vala, my scope can be in Python
<mhall119> pitti: correct
<stgraber> soren: the ARB doesn't maintain the packages, the individual developers do, allowing dependencies would force the ARB to do actual maintenance of these packages
<pitti> so wouldn't it be sufficient for the lens to Recommends: the scope and not depends on it?
<aquarius> stgraber, you're suggesting that if I write a useful scope for an existing lens -- say, I write a music scope that searches my favourite music provider, or my Sonos box, or something -- that I shouldn't be allowed to submit it? I should have to go to the music lens maintainer and beg them to include it (and leave them, officially, on the hook as the maintainer of it?)
<pitti> if it can pull from several scopes?
<jono> stgraber, why?
<mhall119> pitti: other way, the scope currently depends on the lens
<stgraber> soren: instead I'd much prefer the lens develoepr to aggregate the different scopes for their lens and upload the bundle as a single source, ensuring they are all well tested together and offering us a single point of contact
<jono> stgraber, why should the lens dev be required to care about scopes he/she is uninterested in?
<pitti> ^ that was my question, building them from the same source
<mhall119> stgraber: that will severely limit the number of independent scopes being written
<soren> I'll be honest and admit that this whole concept of lenses and scopes is new and mysterious to me, but it sounds to me like there's not a 1-to-1 relationship between them, nor even a 1-to-many, but rather a many-to-many?
<mhall119> pitti: the Unity API was specifically designed to allow their independent development and deployment
<pitti> but how much sense does it make to write a scope (a data provider) without a lens (the presentation for it)?
<wendar> mhall119: does the lens developer currently have to modify their package to support a new scope?
<wendar> mhall119: (outside of Extras,  I mean)
<stgraber> aquarius: if you write a scope for a lens that's in the archive, you can submit it to extras. If you write a scope for a lens that's in extras, you need to go through the developer of the lens
<mhall119> soren: it's one to many, a scope can really only target a single lens
<pitti> if a lens depends on a scope, or the other way round, they already need to be developed and tested togeher, no?
<mhall119> wendar: no, lens authors don't need to do anything for scopes
<aquarius> stgraber, doesn't that put an inordinate burden on a lens developer? I'm not sure a lens developer should be required to test and verify scopes that they might not even be able to run (think of a video scope for a Canadian video provider, which can't be tested by a UK video lens developer).
<pitti> and if they are really are so independent, why do they need to strictly depend on each other?
<soren> mhall119: Ok.
<soren> mhall119: Thanks.
<mhall119> pitti: no, there is no need for scopes and lenses to be developed and tested together
<mhall119> a scope author will need to know about the lens, but not the other way around
<pitti> mhall119: so why do they need to Depends: to them then?
<wendar> mhall119: so, the best analgogy for a scope, might be like an independent extension for an app?
<mhall119> a scope is useless without the lens it is written for
<mhall119> wendar: yes
<jono> wendar, agreed
<wendar> mhall119: like, an ubuntuone extension for rhythmbox?
<mhall119> or the flash plugin for Mozilla
<aquarius> stgraber, I'm just picking music and video as obvious examples; if those being in the archive confuses matters, then I can talk about an ebooks lens, for example. Think of the author of the ebooks lens being, in your model, responsible for scopes for e-book stores which they can't even access for geographical reasons.
<jono> so we need to allow scopes to depend on the lens, but the lens does not need to depend on any scopes
<stgraber> aquarius: sure, and hopefully this extra burden will make them submit the lens to the archive where the Ubuntu development team will make sure it doesn't explode post-release making extending it with scopes in extras perfectly safe
<mhall119> stgraber: I can't concieve of any way, given the Unity API, that a lens can make a scope explode, or vice versa
<pitti> stgraber: well, you can't (easily) introduce new software into stable ubuntu other than extras or backports
<mhall119> technically we can submit scopes to the ARB that don't depend on their lens
<stgraber> the current way the ARB works is "if it breaks we'll remove it", the ARB is not supposed to fix broken packages. This becomes problematic when we allow dependencies because then we might end up having to pull 10 packages because of one being broken, then deal with people complaining about it
<jono> stgraber, why would the ARB need to fix broken packages?
<pitti> that's why I ask why a Recommends: would not suffice
<pitti> as it wouldn't render packages uninstallable when the recommends get removed
<mhall119> stgraber: if you  remove a broken scope, it won't break the lens, and if you remove a broken lens, the scope will just not be accessible
<pitti> and the lenses woudl just display whatever data source is available
<stgraber> pitti: agreed, that's why I think the new cool lens should go to extras bundling some scopes initially, then for the next release, the lens should be in the archive and these scopes can then go as separate packages either in the archive or in extras
<stgraber> pitti: a scope depends on a lens and there are usually multiple scopes for a lens
<ajmitch> pitti: the lense needs to be there for the scopes to be useful at all, so if the lense is in extras & then removed, the scopes won't be functional
<stgraber> pitti: so if we pull a lens, we have to pull all the scopes
<jono> stgraber, why?
<mhall119> stgraber: you don't
<mhall119> they just become inaccessible
<jono> and this is arguably what ratings and reviews are there to help with
<stgraber> mhall119: well, unless you want to end up with a bunch of useless packages, because without the lens, they are completely useless and so should be pulled or they'll confuse the users
<mhall119> stgraber: hence the reason we want a Depends in the scope package
<soren> stgraber: How will it be more or less confusing than the situation where it's all in the same package?
<pitti> we can also remove all the rdepends
<pitti> but I thought lenses could also show data from different scopes
<mhall119> stgraber: what would the downside be of having ScopeA depend on LensB?
<pitti> so if you pull one scope, it wouldn't be useless
<mhall119> pitti: correct
<ajmitch> pitti: I think the problem is more about if the lense gets pulled, breaking >1 scope
<mhall119> the reason for the Depends is so that you won't have a scope installed without the lens that is a capable of displaying it's results
<stgraber> soren: all in the same package means that we have a single point of contact and a single person updating them all, so it's unlikely that this person would break anything in an update to the lens because we can easily ensure the changes have been done for all the scopes
<stgraber> soren: also, if we pull that source package, all the binaries come with it, without any extra work
<mhall119> ajmitch: if the lens gets pulled, it's scopes should be pulled, because they become useless
<jono> stgraber, I think you are thinking of Extras in the same way as we think of Main/Universe
<ajmitch> mhall119: yeah, that's what we were saying :)
<jono> the point of Extras is to ease app devs getting their content in...requiring a maintainer for a collection of scopes and a lens is unrealistic
<jono> apart from anything, the Lens author may not care about the many scopes
<soren> stgraber: None of those arguments seem to have anything to do with confusion for users.
<jono> in the same way, the author of an app probably doesn't care about all of the plugins for his/her app
<soren> stgraber: Not saying they're invalid, just trying to understand the problem one aspect at a time. :)
<jono> the say that we should expect either a maintainer for the scopes and lens in Extras or for it to go into Main/Universe is going to affect the ability of our app devs to get their content into the Software Center
<jono> and as mhall119 said, the Lens/Scopes system was designed to be pluggable like this...
<mhall119> it's encouraged, in fact
<stgraber> soren: for the users, whether we pull a single source building all the binaries or all the sources, there won't be any difference. If we only take out the lens though, then they'll end up seeing 20 packages that when installed will do absolutely nothing
<pitti> so, I still don't understand the fundamental problem here
<pitti> either scopes and lenses _are_ coupled together by expected data format etc. and thus need to be written together
<pitti> then removing one should also remove the other
<mhall119> pitti: only in one direction
<pitti> or they are magically independently, then a recommends: would be more than enough?
<soren> stgraber: How do removals work, btw?
<mhall119> pitti: would a recommends: force the installation of a lens if I apt-get install a scope?
<ajmitch> more like Enhances:
<stgraber> pitti: a scope depends on a lens. A lens can have multiple scopes.
<soren> stgraber: Do we replace the source package with one that builds empty binaries?
<stgraber> soren: upload of an empty package
<soren> s/binaries/binary ones/
<pitti> mhall119: right; if it was in two directions, there would be no doubt about putting them in one source or even one binary
<soren> stgraber: That won't remove the binary packages from users's systems.
<pitti> I guess "empty binary"
<aquarius> doesn't software centre install recommends: packages by default?
<stgraber> soren: correct, in the case of a multi-binary package, we'd probably upload the main binary package as empty and conflict/break against all the others
<pitti> yes, apt does
<pitti> but it doesn't break if the recommends: doesn't exist
<soren> stgraber: Ok.
<mhall119> does removing a package (in USC or apt) remove any package that recommends it?
<stgraber> soren: so far we've been fortunate enough not to have to do anything like that though, so it's just the on-paper procedure ;)
<soren> mhall119: No.
<pitti> so if we pull a scope, there is no problem
<mhall119> soren:  then removing a lens package would leave useless scope packages installed if we only used Recommends
<pitti> if we pull a lens, we either would drop the corresponding scopes as well, or just leave them if another lens uses them as well
<pitti> ^ does that make sense?
<soren> mhall119: Not immediately, at least. It might be up for auto-removal later on, though.
<mhall119> pitti: you can't have multiple lenses use the same scope, the API doesn't allow that
<pitti> ah, that makes it even easier then
<jono> mhall119, multiple installed lenses, right?
<pitti> so dropping a lens would just mean to drop all dependent scopes as well
<mhall119> a scope is installed into a lens' directory in /usr/share/unity/lenses/<lens_name>/
<mhall119> pitti: should drop them all, yes
<jono> right
<pitti> so if we extended the policy so that removing a package would automatically drop all reverse dependencies, would there still be a maintenance/consistency problem?
<stgraber> we also have the issue where then two different source packages will be writting to the same path (as mhall119 pointed out that scopes are installed in the lens directory), looking for problems is pretty easy for the ARB when coming from the same source (just build the source, check all files in debian/, done), but can be much trickier to spot when in multiple sources
<pitti> we still should not generally allow this
<pitti> this situation alreayd stretches the idea of extras.u.c. to the max
<mhall119> stgraber: you have that already
<pitti> and extras.u.c. should never be allowed to grow complex dependency trees
<stgraber> mhall119: no
<mhall119> stgraber: I can write two independent source packages that both try to install to the same /usr/share/unity/<lens_name>
<stgraber> mhall119: we currently either build from the same source, making the check for such issues trivial or we install in an existing lens from the main archive, but then you have to prefix with extras- per policy, avoiding any potential clash
<pitti> err, do we allow this?
<pitti> I thought they'd need to use /opt/extras.u.c./project/ ?
<soren> There's an exception for these things.
<pitti> ah, I think we had an exception for that, /me checks logs
<stgraber> pitti: they do, except for /usr/share/unity/<lens name> as we alloewd it a few meetings ago
<mhall119> pitti: for Unity we need to install .lens and .scope files into /usr/share/unity/lenses/
<pitti> yes, I remember
<stgraber> pitti: but we allowed it by enforcing a extras- prefix
<mhall119> and .service files need to be installed into /usr/share/dbus-1/
<stgraber> pitti: which prefix becomes useless when allowing multiple packages in extras to write to the same path
<pitti> but anyway, the ARB would hopefully reject a package foo if it installs a unity/extras-bar
<pitti> it should be extras-<packagename> and nothing else
<mhall119> pitti: for Unity lenses and scopes, we have to install some descriptive files into /usr/share
<pitti> so, if the ARB is willing to remove reverse dependencies as well, I think the exception can be granted (although it's a very ugly precedent)
<mhall119> binaries and supporting code will live in /op/
<mhall119> /opt/
<pitti> if not, then recommends: seems like a good enough compromise to me?
<jono> from a user experience perspective with recommends, if a user installs a scope, it won't pull in the lens, right?
<mhall119> it will, unless they change the default Apt settings
<jono> right
<pitti> recommends are installed/upgraded by default
<mhall119> it's removal that Recommends will give a less than ideal experience
<pitti> except that apt doesn't fall over if they don't exist
<jono> right
<pitti> (and some technical details which don't matter here)
<stgraber> it's actually another issue I have with the proposal, no offence but it comes from the Canonical Community team without AFAICS any backing from the ARB (only e-mail from an ARB member I can see is mine and as you noticed, I'm against it)
<jono> so if the user removes the lens, some scopes will by laying around
<jono> stgraber, does it matter who raises this topic?
<mhall119> pitti: oh, so then if stgraber pulls a lens package from extras, a user can still install one of it's scope packages without being told it won't work?
<jono> also, we discussed with the ARB first and were told to bring it to the TB
<pitti> jono: that's no different with Depends:; that's the job of autoremove
<jono> pitti, gotcha
<wendar> stgraber: I'm also generally against it, but the redeeming feature from my perspective is that mhall119 will be doing most of the work
<mhall119> stgraber: both you and highvoltage encouraged me to raise this with the TB
<wendar> against it from the same perspective as pitti: it's kind of ugly
<pitti> well, more important than "ugly" is that it imposes extra responsibility on the ARB team
<pitti> if they are willing to check for reverse dependencies on removal, it seems okay
<mhall119> what exactly are the extra responsibilities?
<mhall119> sorry, I'm unclear on what work will be required
<wendar> if mhall119 is willing to participate as an app-review-contributor, and watch over the scopes and lenses, it's less of a stress on the ARB
<pitti> introducing the concept of dependencies (in essence, a parallel distro)
<stgraber> mhall119: that's correct because we were definitely stuck and only the TB can do the policy change, I just mean that we should vote on "allowing the ARB to" not "the ARB needs to" and then let the ARB choose whether to go with it or not depending on the estimated extra work
 * ajmitch isn't against it as such, mostly because of it being somewhat useful & not being directly against the extension repository policy
<pitti> with all the fun that potentially comes with it (circular depends, NBS transitions, uninstallable packages, nontrivial removals)
<mhall119> pitti: is that a reasonable concern if it's only for lenses and scopes?
<ajmitch> removals *ought* to be rare, I hope
<jono> stgraber, I don't understand, if you wanted to discuss this, why didn't you raise this when we brought it to the ARB?
<pitti> yes, as the ARB will need to carry that ^, I'm all for letting the ARB decide this
<wendar> I guess the practical question for me, which we'll only see over time, is how much demand there is for releasing new lenses on the "current" release
<jono> as opposed to requesting TB discussion
<pitti> mhall119: you know how it is with precedents :)
<pitti> mhall119: this will quickly turn into a parallel distro
<wendar> jono: we definitely needed TB guidance on whether an exception was even possible
<mhall119> pitti: yes, but we shouldn't avoid making good progress for fear of possible slippery-slopes somewhere down the road
<pitti> as next week someone will have a very good argument why they will need to put their library package into extras
<jono> wendar, agreed
<wendar> jono: if they say "No", then the ARB doesn't even need to discuss it
<stgraber> jono: I was actually hoping for someone else on the ARB to say something, didn't quite happen though ;) TB approval would be needed regardless, so adding it to the TB agenda would have been the right thing to do in all cases
<jono> pitti, wouldn't this be an exemption though, just for scopes/lenses?
<stgraber> wendar: exactly
<wendar> jono: if they say yes, then a deeper discussion of the potential risks, how to mitigate them, etc. is in order
<pitti> mhall119: I don't think it's unreasonable extra effort, but as I said, as it's the ARB which will need to do the work
<ajmitch> stgraber: sorry, I was waiting for the TB meeting :)
<pitti> jono: we can certianly make the wording pretty tight for that, yes
<jono> I think it is fair that the ARB provides input on this
<jono> but my worry is that if the ARB is not interesting in this, that this will be a singificant blocker for getting all these fantastic scopes/lenses into the USC
<highvoltage> mhall119: yep, I told you to raise it with the TB (as apposed to you and jono trying to bully people to submitting to your ideas on #ubuntu-arb)
<wendar> if the TB/ARB made an exception, it should be clear that it's *only* for lenses/scopes
<mhall119> to be frank, I have 60+ packages and counting that I need to get packaging resolved for, and I won't want to wait until the week or two before release to get started
<jono> highvoltage, bully is a strong word
<pitti> jono: well, that's much different than discussing technical implementations of dependencies, though :)
<wendar> not for extensions/libraries in general
<highvoltage> jono: perhaps, but it's exactly what it looked like to me.
<mhall119> highvoltage: it was more desperate pleas for assistance
<jono> pitti, agreed, but I would suggest that the app developer experience is what we are wanting to improve
<wendar> and, to offer support for mhall119, FeatureFreeze is past, and the only way these are getting in to Ubuntu before October is through Extras
<jono> but agreed on the technical discussion here
<wendar> (which is part of why Extras was created in the first place)
<soren> Just a comment on the process: I understand this is something the TB ultimately needs to approve for the ARB to be able to approve it, but I'd really prefer such requests to come from the ARB after discussion there.
<pitti> mhall119: well, I don't think this needs to block you; you can start with Recommends:, and upgrade to depends: later on if/when the exception gets granted and the ARB is comfortable with it
<wendar> soren: apologies, we were at an impasse
<mhall119> pitti: I can, yes, but that's going to be extra work for me if I have to go back and re-do packaging if we don't have a firm decision today
<wendar> I'm honestly 50/50 on this one, I see good and bad
<soren> I don't see why the ARB couldn't discuss it and offer a proposal to the TB for approval/rejection. IMO, the ARB should feel empowered to do so.
<wendar> perhaps we could agree to approve it for Oneiric, and revisit for consideration in Precise?
<ajmitch> wendar: I'm about the same
<mhall119> at the rate we're getting new lenses/scopes, I don't be able to attend to all of them on my own
<micahg> wendar: backports would still be an option possibly
<pitti> so, I don't personally have a problem with adding this exception, but with my TB hat I'm not comfortable making this over teh ARB's head
<wendar> michahg: but, they wouldn't be in Precise, so fail the "accepted to one release" test
<soren> pitti: Yeah, I agree with that.
<wendar> micahg: backports could also make an exception, but that's another conversation
 * ScottK looks up
<jono> maybe the ARB can discuss and then present their views at the next TB meeting?
<soren> pitti: We could say "the TB grants the ARB permission to approve/reject this new policy", but that's really a backwards way to go about this.
<highvoltage> micahg: that sounds good, but is it technically feasable? backports isn't enabled by default, is it?
<micahg> highvoltage: it is from oneiric on
<wendar> pitti: perhaps the answer here is: the TB is open to making an exception, pending a recommendation from the ARB?
<highvoltage> micahg: ooh
<ajmitch> highvoltage: it is, but pre-release backports isn't enabled yet
<pitti> wendar: that's pretty much my feeling, yes
<pitti> and we have a working alternative right now
<ScottK> Backports is for stuff in Ubuntu, not extras, so I'm really confused.
<pitti> yes, backports has nothing to do with this really
<mhall119> stgraber: wendar: what will be required from the ARB if we go with Recommends, and a user complains about installable scopes not working (because the lens was removed)?
<micahg> well, if stuff would never get in the distro then certainly not
<highvoltage> ok. I thought that if you could get dependencies backported, it could solve the lenses and scopes problem by having some scopes in backports
<pitti> mhall119: removing the scope as well, I guess
<ScottK> highvoltage: Need to get them into the distro first though.
<stgraber> mhall119: manual removal of all these scopes by uploading an empty package as their source
<stgraber> mhall119: the problem is removal done this way will still show up in the software cener
<wendar> mhall119:  not sure really, we don't have a policy or process because we have no dependencies in the ARB now
<mhall119> pitti: and will that be easier on the ARB than if we used Depends?
<stgraber> mhall119: so people will probably still try to install them even though there are scary warnings everywhere saying the package is empty
<wendar> mhall119: which is exactly what we need to figure out
<pitti> mhall119: using recommends: requires hat the recommending package fails gracefully if the recommended package is not there any more
<pitti> mhall119: so with recommends: we don't need a policy/workflow change
<pitti> mhall119: and I think with lenses/scopes that property should already be built into unity/the API, right?
<mhall119> pitti: correct, but what I'm asking is whether or not that will actually make it easier for the ARB
<stgraber> I don't think Recommends is a good idea to be honnest, I actually think it's worse than Depends ... because with Depends, your system will know it's broken, with Recommends, you'll just have useless packages with no way to know which and why
<pitti> mhall119: I think so, yes
<pitti> anyway, we are out of time
<mhall119> pitti: stgraber disagrees :)
<stgraber> using Recommends is just playing on words to avoid the "packages can't depend on other extra packages"
<wendar> we'll plan a separate ARB meeting
<wendar> and, bring back our recommendation to the next TB meeting
<ajmitch> wendar: we have an ARB meeting this friday
<pitti> stgraber: well, if the idea of that clause was to avoid breaking packages when removing other packages, recommends: would provide exactly that
<pitti> i. e. you can remove a package without having to play a fully fledged archive admin process/check
<pitti> wendar: yes, I think that'd be best
<wendar> ajmitch: I thought so, but didn't check the calendar yet
<stgraber> pitti: right, won't prevent people installing them and wondering why they don't do anything though ;)
<stgraber> pitti: so it's policy-compliant but really confusing for the users...
<pitti> stgraber: I see no difference with using Depends: there
<stgraber> pitti: I agree, I'm against both
<pitti> stgraber: if you use empty packages, you'll have that problem either way
<mhall119> stgraber: wendar: Just so I'm clear on this, if I start submitting scope packages that Recommends: an existing lens package in Extras, will that be allowed or not?
<wendar> mhall119: it still fails on the "no libraries, only stand-alone applications" policy
<mhall119> wendar: how?
<wendar> mhall119: so, we'd still have to hold them until after the ARB meeting Friday
<wendar> scopes aren't stand-alone applications
<wendar> for that matter, neither are lenses
<mhall119> wendar: does that mean that Scopes will not be allowed at all, unless they are incorporated into the lens package?
<wendar> but, we're heading off into rabbit trails there
<wendar> mhall119: I don't know yet
<wendar> mhall119: can you join us on Friday?
<mhall119> wendar: I have multiple developers waiting on my to get their packaging going, I need *something*
<wendar> mhall119: the meeting schedule is on the Fridge
<mhall119> yes, I will be there Friday
<pitti> yes, this stretches the idea of what extras is to the max, as I already said earlier
<wendar> mhall119: thanks!
<pitti> so it'll be an extension of the "spirit" anyway
<stgraber> mhall119: for now, you can always submit these that are simply scopes+lens bundled, for these that need to be in multiple packages, hold until we made a decision
<mhall119> can we at least all agree that we want to allow lens and scope authors to be able to submit thir packages to extras in some fashion?
<wendar> mhall119: don't want to inconvenience them, but it is worth talking this through
<pitti> ^ that's an ARB question, I think
<stgraber> mhall119: I'm sure you already have some simple ones that are similar to these we already accepted (askubutu, ssh, utilities, calculator, city)
<wendar> mhall119: it sounded like we had a workable fall-back plan that would allow them
<pitti> it's not an "application" after alll, it's a plugin for your desktop
<mhall119> stgraber: yes, but the conversation has shifted into questioning whether those should be allowed
<mhall119> so if we can at the very least get consensus that these are an appropriate use of the extras repository, I'd feel much more comfortable
<stgraber> mhall119: I think we want lenses/scopes in extras but we want them in a managable way. We already did the policy changes required to allow for a single source package to provide scopes and lenses and we already approved some of them
<mhall119> thank you stgraber
<stgraber> mhall119: so as long as your submissions are similar to what we already have in extras, I don't see any problem
<wendar> stgraber: agreed
<stgraber> mhall119: for anything that you wan to send as multiple source packages, please wait
<mhall119> stgraber: I see a problem, but I suppose we can discuss that on Friday
<mhall119> pitti: then can the TB officially allow the ARB to make a decision on this rule?
<pitti> I'm fine with that
<stgraber> mhall119: I think the plan is for the ARB to send the proposal to the next TB meeting based on the result of our meeting on Friday
<jono> ok so the decision is to defer to the ARB for discussion
<jono> and then the ARB to present their views to the TB for any further discussion
<mhall119> stgraber: you're killing me here
<pitti> we can also vote on the ARB proposal on the mailing list
<stgraber> either voting on the ML or at next TB meeting works for me, if voting on the ML is better for mhall119, sure we can try that
<mhall119> whatever gets a vote sooner is best for me
<stgraber> but that's a big enough policy change that I want the TB to explicitly vote on it, not just delegate to the ARB
<mhall119> I have to answer to developers who want to make contributions that they currently aren't allowed to
<mhall119> the longer I keep them waiting, the more of them we're going to lose
<jono> I think it seems fair to have the ARB discuss and present a view and then the TB to have an explicit voite
<soren> I have to wonder how we ended up in a situation where the TB needs to sign off on this.
<pitti> soren: TB is responsible for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExtensionRepositoryPolicy
<soren> I would have expected the ARB to be able to make these decisions, and if they felt unfit to do so (or if someone else saw them unfit to do so), it could be raised to the TB.
<mhall119> soren: the ARB felt that they didn't have the authority to make this decision
<soren> mhall119: That's fair enough.
<ajmitch> soren: it's not entirely clear what policy the ARB is allowed to decide - I think this one went to the TB because it changes the approved process
<pitti> I see two questions for the ARB:
<pitti> - do you consider lenses/scopes appropriate content for extras.u.c.
<pitti> - would you be willing to do the extra effort of removing transitive dependencies when removing a package
<pitti> the second is one that only the ARB can decide
<pitti> the first one seems an appropriate question for both ARB and TB
<mhall119> we can limit that second one to only a single level of dependency between only 2 very specific kinds of packages
<pitti> right, that doesn't change the problem much, though
<mhall119> it will limited the amount of 'precident'
<mhall119> and makes the potential for more work far less daunting
<stgraber> I believe the first one was sort of answered by the ARB asking for explicity policy changes for the unity paths a while ago, but can't hurt to have that clarified by both sides indeed
<mhall119> it's also hard to have problems like cirular dependencies under those restrictions
<stgraber> mhall119: single level or multiple level really doesn't change much, in either way we need to have the tools to monitor this (though shouldn't be horribly difficult as long as we don't have to remove 20 of them a week) and think of the proper way to do these removals without leaving packages around and without listing empty packages on the people's system and in the archive
<stgraber> is there anything else to discuss at this TB meeting or can we wait till the ARB meeting on Friday? (considering we're already 21min past our allocated meeting time)
<pitti> ok, so I don't think we can discuss more at this point
<jono> thanks everyone
<mhall119> stgraber: I'll wait until Friday, do you have a link to the ARB agenda?
<pitti> once the ARB answers that and makes a proposal for extending that policy, voting on it should be quick
<stgraber> mhall119: sure
<stgraber> mhall119: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<mhall119> thanks
<mhall119> and thanks everyone for discussing this
<pitti> thanks everyone
<pitti> next chair would be kees
<pitti> I'll send the meeting notes tomorrow morning; good night everyone!
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Feb 20 22:24:50 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-20-21.08.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-20-21.08.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-21
<b508> t
<TcoUpLoad> hi
<lynxman> o/
<hallyn> \o
<utlemming> \o
<arosales> Hello
<m_3> o/
<Daviey> o/
<rbasak> o/
<zul> hello
<adam_g> \o
<zul> whos running the meeting today?
<utlemming> Well, I believe I'm running this shindig
<Daviey> utlemming: i believe you
<utlemming> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 21 16:02:16 2012 UTC.  The chair is utlemming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<utlemming> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> oh good not me
<utlemming> It doesn't look like there is anything to cover from the last meeting
<utlemming> so we'll move on then
<utlemming> [TOPIC] Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<utlemming> Fearless Leader Daviey, what do you have for us?
<Daviey> oh, hello
<Daviey> Firstly, FF was last Thursday.
<Daviey> Is there any undeclared features people need to land before release?
<hallyn> define declared?
<ScottK> There will be a postfix FFe for 2.9.
<arosales> jamespage: and rbasak are working on openmpi 1.5
<ScottK> lamont and I have already discussed it.
<utlemming> I'm working on a cloud-image mirroring script
<Daviey> ScottK: Oh, great. Anything exciting?
<adam_g> Daviey: opnenstack introduced a new python dependency over the weekend that is not in main, python-iso8601
<roaksoax> I'll have to file FFe for cobbler MIR and probably some other packages new upstream's
<adam_g> (for nova + glance)
<Daviey> arosales: is openmpi still ging to ship 1.4 and 1.5, or still investigating just switching?
<Daviey> adam_g: *sigh*
<jamespage> Daviey: decision on that in the next hour
<arosales> Daviey: I think jamespage and rbasak were working on updating to 1.5
<arosales> include the dependencies,
<Daviey> adam_g: at least it is packaged!
<Daviey> jamespage: cool
<Daviey> shall we go through the bug states?
<Daviey> arosales: cool
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<adam_g> Daviey: its very small, too. <150 LOC
<Daviey> adam_g: should be simples.. :)
<Daviey> bug 924739
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924739 in squid3 (Ubuntu Precise) "after upgrade from oneiric to precise, previous squid config unused, cannot be used when relocated" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924739
<Daviey> adam_g: were you looking at that?
<ScottK> Daviey: usual new release of postfix.  The biggest change is a memcache client.
<adam_g> Daviey: a bit, but haven't made any progres sinthe last week
<Daviey> ScottK: well between you, lamont and a reliable upstream.. doesn;t concern too much :)
 * ScottK nods
<Daviey> adam_g: Are you able to investigate further before next tues?
<roaksoax> adam_g: do you think a newer upstream of squid with improve things?
<adam_g> Daviey: i can, but not certain how much progress i can make alone. would love to have help of anyone else interested
<adam_g> roaksoax: not AFAIK. there are features not-yet ported to squid3 that cause config parsing to fail
<Daviey> adam_g: Okay, if you drive it - we'll see who else can help.
<adam_g> Daviey: k
<Daviey> roaksoax is kinda snowed under right now.
<roaksoax> adam_g: I can also help with that as I have a bug with the buckets which is supposedly fixed in a new upstream that is in debian unstable atm mand we might have to file FFe
<SpamapS> o/
<Daviey> bug 883988
<Daviey> another for adam_g ? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "db migration failing when upgrading glance - trying to create existing tables" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<adam_g> Daviey: unfortunately i missed the openstack project meeting where i'd like to bring that up, will do this week
<Daviey> adam_g: tonight?
<adam_g> Daviey: ah, yea
<Daviey> bug 893926, assignee unassigned themselves.. It's an open bug for anyone to grab..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<Daviey> (I'll take it if someone else doesn't)
<Daviey> roaksoax: bug 911812 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 911812 in facter (Ubuntu Precise) "processor fact does not handle arm, others" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/911812
<Daviey> SpamapS: bug 914392 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914392 in juju (Ubuntu) "LXC local provider does not respect 'series' (only installs oneiric)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914392
<SpamapS> Daviey: fix released! (marking as such)
<Daviey> SpamapS: \o/
<Daviey> zul: bug 923681
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923681 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Server install fails when selecting everything but 'VM host' & 'Manual selection' from tasksel" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923681
<zul> should be fixed now...ill have to download an iso to test
<Daviey> neat
<roaksoax> Daviey: sorry, hanlde it now as I have pandbaboards to test with
<Daviey> cool
<Daviey> bug 925024 , hallyn ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 925024 in lxc (Ubuntu) "apparmor makes it impossible to install postgresql-common on Precise" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/925024
<Daviey> bug 850443 , /me , not much progress.  Checking with an upstream depends if it has been fixed, awaiting feedback
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850443 in python-eventlet (Ubuntu) "Nova API does not listen on IPv6" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850443
<hallyn> <shrug> jjohansen ahs a fix
<hallyn> He was waiting on other apparmor changes, but at this poitn I"m not sure that's appropriate any more
<hallyn> Need to talk to him about it.
<Daviey> hallyn: okay, can you check in with him if it is fixed in Precise?
<Daviey> bug 928383 , adam_g / zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 928383 in glance (Ubuntu) "python-glance package contains stuff about API and registry" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928383
<hallyn> Daviey: it's not fixed in precise, pretty sure.  Just need to ask him to push separately
<hallyn> (will do)
<Daviey> hallyn: thanks!
<Daviey> bug 928990 : smoser ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 928990 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "fsck / dirty filesystem on instance is death" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928990
<zul> Daviey: "I've used 2012.1~e3-0ubuntu0~ppa1~oneiric1 version."
<zul> but ill have a look
<Daviey> thanks zul, what about  bug 929780 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 929780 in nova (Ubuntu) "console.ring files should not be world readable" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/929780
<smb> Daviey, not sure but I think smoser is supposed to be on vacation or so. At least probably not working
<Daviey> smb: right!
<Daviey> adam_g: bug 932466 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932466 in Glance "glance db migrations deadlock against precise mysql server" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932466
<adam_g> Daviey: ah, just marked fixed released for ubuntu
<Daviey> bug 932468 , /me , fix released - updated
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932468 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "python-novaclient hardcodes UUID_CACHE_DIR, this should respect some env variable" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932468
<Daviey> bug 875262 , SpamapS ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<Daviey> (Did php get updated?)
<Daviey> bug 880339: roaksoax ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880339 in mysql-5.1 (Ubuntu Precise) "AppArmor profile needs update" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880339
<zul> lookes like it
<roaksoax> Daviey: have tried couple times cound't reproduce it
<Daviey> zul: right, but is it still a bug? :) (PHP)
<roaksoax> Daviey: but I have a new lead. will look further also this week too
<SpamapS> Daviey: PHP did get updated
<Daviey> roaksoax: Can you update the bug, and mark it incomplete pending more data?
<SpamapS> Daviey: and the mysql apparmor profile was fixed, I think
<Daviey> SpamapS: sweet
<Daviey> bug 907197: zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907197 in nova (Ubuntu) "ip address can't be injected into the instance when using lxc " [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907197
<SpamapS> the PHP sqlite bug has a comment from me asking for those affected to test again
<SpamapS> it got fixed in Debian actually
<Daviey> zul: bug 879666 ( rbasak ?)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879666 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "chown error for console.fifo when launching vm" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879666
<Daviey> SpamapS: good job!
<rbasak> zul?
<zul> Daviey: starting again on it this week
<Daviey> is zul still alive?
<zul> Daviey: barely
<Daviey> zul: both of them? ^^
<zul> i cant seem to reproduce the lxc one yet still
<Daviey> ?
<Daviey> zul: i don't follow.
<Daviey> zul: ah!
<Daviey> zul: Can you give it another crack this week?
<Daviey> bug 918791: hallyn
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 918791 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Precise) "qemu-kvm dies when using vmvga driver and unity in the guest" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/918791
<hallyn> jwerner was looking at that?
<Daviey> ah.. and he's not here :(
<hallyn> if he wont 'have time i can take a day this week to dedicate to figuring it out.
<Daviey> hallyn: Can you check in with him after this?
<hallyn> ok
<Daviey> bug 924375, smoser - wil check in with him when he is around
<Daviey> bug 925024
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924375 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "cloud-init should allow pre-seeding of ec2 datasource:Ec2:metadata_urls" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924375
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 925024 in lxc (Ubuntu) "apparmor makes it impossible to install postgresql-common on Precise" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/925024
<hallyn> didn't we already talk about that?
<Daviey> dupe, yeah
<Daviey> utlemming: bug 926160 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 926160 in Ubuntu "precise cloud-images significantly larger than oneiric" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/926160
<SpamapS> Daviey: shouldn't we also check in on blueprints/topic-blueprints?
<Daviey> SpamapS: Yes.
<utlemming> Daveiy: no update, looks like we won't be fixing it as it is related to disk creation and not the images themselves.
<Daviey> bug 928378: adam_g zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 928378 in glance (Ubuntu) "glance client should be separate from server" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928378
<zul> Daviey: ill take it
<Daviey> utlemming: ah, can you mark it as such. :)
<utlemming> yes sir
<Daviey> zul: bug 931236 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 931236 in keystone (Ubuntu) "keystone install is unnecessarily interactive" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/931236
<zul> looked at it...no solution for it though
<Daviey> bug 932800: adam_g ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932800 in glance (Ubuntu) "New glance dependency: ca-certificates" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932800
<Daviey> zul: Hmm, really?
<zul> Daviey: really
<adam_g> Daviey: we can get the ca-certificates added this week for sure, befor next snapshot
<Daviey> ok.
<Daviey> rocking.
<Daviey> bug 901881, seems an easy catch for this week aswell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901881 in glance (Ubuntu) "nova and glance should depend on python-keystone" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901881
<Daviey> Any other busg that should be targeted ?
<adam_g> Daviey: still blocked on the keystone MIR, but needed more now than before
<Daviey> right
<Daviey> Blueprints.
<Daviey> SpamapS: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-automated-boot-testing , everything TODO to be postponed?
<Daviey> jamespage: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-cloud-image-testing same?
<Daviey> (freecloud item to be postponed for sure, i guess)
<SpamapS> Daviey: not at all. Its just been slow getting integrated into the test suite because they don't want more development done on it.
<SpamapS> Daviey: I need to get w/ jamespage and get the changes I already developed added into the testing framework and then those will fall rapidly
<Daviey> SpamapS: how is juju charm testing doing?
<jamespage> Daviey: yep - I'll postpone that ietm
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-juju-charm-testing
<SpamapS> Daviey: spec seems stalled.. will have to revive it (set it aside for Feature Freeze)
<Daviey> adam_g: is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-openstack-charms accurate ?
<Daviey> SpamapS: cool
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-cfjuju , just postponed puppet items on behalf of lynxman
<adam_g> Daviey: yes, tho i think POSTPONED'ing 'melange - charm needed if quantum is supported (tech preview)'
<Daviey> SpamapS: Can you report how juju is shaping up?
<Daviey> adam_g: make it so :)
<SpamapS> Lots of bugs fixed. Subordinates are starting to land.
<SpamapS> Still a giant pile of production limiting bugs.
<SpamapS> But we will be working on some "real world" testing of juju+precise in the next few weeks.
<Daviey> great!
<Daviey> Hopefully they'll be some bitesize bugs everyone can work on :)
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-ceph
<Daviey> (being driven by kernel, smb?)
<Daviey> or SpamapS ?
<smb> huh?
<Daviey> hallyn: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-kvm-document-suggested-changes ?
<Daviey> smb: there seems to be some ceph todo's assigned to the kernel team, are you/they aware?
<smb> Daviey, no
<Daviey> smb: rocking :)
<Daviey> SpamapS: Is it something that can be postponed ?
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-powernap likely to be postponed?
<Daviey> SpamapS: and/or https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-glusterfs-mir
<SpamapS> Daviey: some of the ceph stuff will be postponed yes
<roaksoax> Daviey: I;m postponing it and propiosing it to GSoC
<Daviey> roaksoax: cool
<SpamapS> Daviey: Not sure about glusterfs.
<Daviey> SpamapS: can you update, and speak to smb about what needs to be done?
<SpamapS> Daviey: with a LOW priority, its been pushed down a lot.
<Daviey> SpamapS: lets table glusterfs for the meeting and work otu for next week.
<Daviey> DONE
<Daviey> sorry for overunnning..
<Daviey> utlemming: ?
<utlemming> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<SpamapS> Daviey: I don't think there's anything for the kernel team to do for CEPH .. its more about QA and testing.
<utlemming> Do we have any team events this week?
<utlemming> I'll take that as a no...
<utlemming> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> hi
<utlemming> hggdh, rbasak: do either of you have an arm server updates?
<rbasak> No updates
<hggdh> nope
<hallyn> Daviey: (sorry;  except for netcf everything on my blueprints is handle-able)
<utlemming> Great...thank you gentlemen
<utlemming> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<utlemming> smb: hows the kernel?
<Daviey> (hallyn: great)
<smb> utlemming, Not too bad, thanks :)
<smb> Well right now persuing some issue back in lucid with spinloack
<hggdh> I am setting up persistent VMs for all supported Ubuntu releases in the QA lab. This could be used, later on, to test server SRUs
<smb> trying to look into an issue smoser has brought up
<hggdh> ..
<smb> and something else I cannot remember right now
<smb> (failing a bit on the mutlitasking part :-P)
<smb> ..
<smoser> smoser's interupts are high priority!
<smoser> :)
 * smoser thanks smb for his help
<Daviey> smb: the kernel has been rock solid for me so far :)
<Daviey> (best. kernel. ever)
<utlemming> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<utlemming> Any other topics, questions, concerns or general mockings?
 * Daviey mocks soren 
<utlemming> +1
<SpamapS> huats: care to update us on zentyal briefly?
 * lynxman points to Sorens target audience
<huats> SpamapS: sure
<huats> so
<huats> zentyal packages have been out for a while
<SpamapS> In a PPA
<huats> and they ask to be include in universe
<huats> so there is a massive review of their work
<huats> since they have change many things
<huats> and the name of the package
<huats> which means a NEW process inclusion
<huats> so
<huats> I am doing a review on that aspect to help the archive admin that will review the packages
<SpamapS> Baically, bug 928501 needs to be fixed.. but that involves *19* NEW packages
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 928501 in ebox (Ubuntu) "Precise will ship totally broken ebox packages" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928501
<huats> (this is what we have defined with SpamapS)
<huats> the thing is that the upstream is also doing the packaging
<huats> and they are really eager to help
<SpamapS> so huats is going to do a preliminary review looking at what the AA's will look at .. so that there isn't a cycle of review and rejection
<SpamapS> I'll upload the packages (and review as well) once huats has taken a look and gotten some feedback to the Zentyal devs
<huats> I should be able to give a first review by tomorrow
<SpamapS> Anyway, thats all
<huats> :)
<SpamapS> huats: right?
<SpamapS> huats: THANK YOU!
<huats> thanks for the clarification :)
<huats> that is it :)
<utlemming> And with that, we'll yield back the balance of the time.
<utlemming> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 21 16:55:51 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-21-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-21-16.02.html
<hallyn> \o/
<arosales> Thanks for moderating utlemming
<SpamapS> utlemming: FYI, you missed "announce the next meeting time"
<SpamapS> which would be, next Tuesday
<utlemming> oh...
<utlemming>  [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<utlemming> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<utlemming> hummm...doesn't work outside a meeting...I'll put it in the notes
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 21 17:00:07 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<apw> o/
<cking> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<bjf> o/
<henrix> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> P/omap4: a new kernel was released (Ubuntu-3.2.0-1406.8) and a fix for lp937051 ("Cannot set MAC address via kernel boot parameters") is in the pipe.
<ppisati> SRU: a new round of SRU kernels for every release/arch is queued.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-distro-team-ubuntu-12.04-beta-1.html
<ogasawara> || apw        || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara  || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> || sconklin   || servercloud-p-ceph                    || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Beta-1 work items.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> Power Management:
<cking>  * Work around broken HP battery info for powerstat.
<cking>  * Started looking at Phoronix test suite
<cking>  * Call for testing: RC6 at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/PowerManagementRC6
<cking>    ^^ Thanks to Leann Ogasawara for organising this.
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Last week we uploaded the 3.2.0-17.26 kernel.  Beta freeze is this
<ogasawara> Thursday and Beta-1 is planned for next Thurs Mar 1.  I do not intend
<ogasawara> any further uploads until after Beta-1.  Only fixes critical for the
<ogasawara> release will warrent an upload at this point in time.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Feb 23 - Beta Freeze (~2 days)
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Mar 01 - Beta 1 (~1 week)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<cking> apw's laptop has just crashed - come back to this later
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (Feb. 21):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy - 2.6.24-31.99     - In verification
<bjf>  * Lucid - 2.6.32-39.86     - In verification
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-32.66  - In verification
<bjf>  * Natty - 2.6.38-13.56     - In verification
<bjf>  * Oneiric - 3.0.0-16.29    - In verification
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<apw> jsalisbury, am back
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> ogasawara, go
<ogasawara> just want to give a quick welcome to henrix
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> ..
 * apw ^5's ogasawara
<henrix> thanks! nice to be around
<cking> welcome henrix
<apw> beer?
<jsalisbury> sforshee, did you have a comment or just saying hi to henrix?
<henrix> apw: where?
<apw> fridge
 * smb heard beer
<ogasawara> hehe
<apw> ..
<apw> jsalisbury, say "sforshee, go" and see what he does
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> sforshee, go
<jsalisbury> ok, we can move back to CVE's
<sforshee> I think something went wrong, that was my roll call response
<jsalisbury> ahh, ok
<apw>  
<sforshee> messages were delayed to me I guess
<apw> Currently we have 72 CVEs on our radar, one new CVEs were added this week.
<sforshee> ..
<apw> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<apw>  
<apw> Overall the backlog is unchanged this week, though we have closed one
<apw> additional CVE across the board:
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> Any other comments or announcements?
<apw> nada ..
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 21 17:09:27 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-21-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-21-17.00.html
<apw> jsalisbury, ta
 * apw looks at the fridge ... with his come and get my eyes
 * ogasawara cries and stares at the clock
 * ppisati -> EOD
<czajkowski> xdatap1: cprofitt greg-g itnet7 ping
<cprofitt> pong
<xdatap1> pong
<czajkowski> need the others to continue
<xdatap1> let's wait few minutes
 * greg-g waves
<greg-g> so, the fridge has this in an hour
<JanC> the fridge is often wrong that way (or was, at least?)
<greg-g> then we should fix it?
<JanC> greg-g: fix google ?
<greg-g> fix the timezone of the meeting?
<czajkowski> greg-g: it's UTC but I suspect it's picking up summer time for some unknown reason
<JanC> AFAIK this is a google bug, but I might be wrong
<czajkowski> always gone by the wiki page
<xdatap1> hey greg-g ! :)
 * greg-g is able to get gcal to be consistent and corrent, across timezones with peole in europe ;)
<greg-g> but anywho..
<greg-g> hiya xdatap1 !
<greg-g> so, we have quorum?
<cprofitt> greg-g: yes
<cprofitt> czajkowski, me, you, xdatap1
<xdatap1> ok, shall we start?
<cprofitt> yes, please
<xdatap1> I'll chair the meeting
<xdatap1> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 21 20:08:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is xdatap1. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<xdatap1> so, today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<xdatap1> let's start with the team's approval
<xdatap1> Netherlands team is here?
<Ronnie> xdatap1: o/
<greg-g> hi there!
<xdatap1> hello Ronnie, welcome! Please introduce yourself and your team
<Ronnie> I'm Ronnie, the new Ubuntu-NL Loco contact. I took the seat over after the absence of our former LoCo contact (Sense Hofstede) a few months ago.
<Ronnie> Ubuntu NL was founded in 2004, and still a very active Ubuntu Community
<czajkowski> aloha folks
<Ronnie> Previous reapproval (2010-12-21) we were not approved, because most of the community councel wanted to wait on the upcoming change in governance structure. Now, more than a year later were ready for a reapproval.
<Ronnie> Bug of the previous approval: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-locoteams/+bug/693178
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 693178 in Ubuntu LoCo Teams "Re-approval, ubuntu-nl" [High,Fix released]
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DutchTeamApprovalApplication
<Ronnie> The new governance has each month an IRC meeting, were we take disicions on the topics discussed on the mailinglist and we make new action points. The meetings are open for everyone to join. The first part of the meeting is intended for the goverance only, to discuss more quickly and take discisions (everyone is free to read it). In the second part, everyone can join the discussion.
 * greg-g nods
<Ronnie> more information can be found in the link czajkowski posted above. Feel free to ask any question
<czajkowski> Ronnie: hiya so glad to see ye guys came back
<cprofitt> I have read your application, taken a look at your website, and at loco.ubuntu.com
<czajkowski> and well done for that
<cprofitt> Well done on the documentation Ronnie
<czajkowski> Ronnie: so a couple of questions as I was on the last council when the application came before
<Ronnie> thx cprofitt
<czajkowski> when sense left the team did seem to go rapidly down hill
<greg-g> Ronnie: I see the list of events these past few years, some of them look interesting, what is the general type of event that Ubuntu-NL puts on or participates in?
<czajkowski> waht measures are no in place to stop such an episode happening again
<czajkowski> *what
<czajkowski> I know there were a lot of issues in the past with information not being passed to others, and conerations happening on the forums but not elsewhere, do you feel that all the extra levels of governance is helping?
<Ronnie> the team did not really gone downhill when sense left the team. We still had meetings every month (thomas_de_graaff took over the meeting chair)
<cprofitt> Ronnie: are any other members from your team in channel presently?
<Thomas_de_Graaff> o/
<johanvd> o/
<JanC> I agree the day-to-day working of the team didn't really go downhill
<czajkowski> Ronnie: we had people coming in looking to find out what to do as they dodnt know what to do
<StefandeVries> o/
<Ronnie> the only difference was that that we hadn't any loco contact at the moment
<greg-g> welcome Thomas_de_Graaff and johanvd !
<leoquant> o/
 * JanC is on the ubuntu-nl IRC team
 * StefandeVries too.
<greg-g> welcome all!
<Oer> o/
<cprofitt> Ronnie - so it was an issue with having a single contact? or was that also the team 'owner' for LP?
<cprofitt> welcome to all Ubuntu-NL folks!!
<cprofitt> great to see such a strong showing!!
<Ronnie> czajkowski: yes we contacted the community councel to ask what steps we needed to take to make a smooth transition. but that didn't mean the team got downhill.
<greg-g> Ronnie: good, so, do you think the current situation is positive for the team? Are the events/decisions happening in a positive manner?
<Thomas_de_Graaff> I want to add that the structures Sense laid out made it quite easy to continue with a missing member.
<cprofitt> Thomas_de_Graaff: +1
<cprofitt> I see that now looking at LP
<Ronnie> greg-g: it defenitly improved very much
<Ronnie> there were some issues this year, but i think we handled them all very nice
<greg-g> great!
<greg-g> what are your plans for this year: the usual of release parties and global jams?
<Ronnie> the new governance is also more present in the community than before
<Ronnie> like i mentioned the open meetings improved it a lot
<xdatap1> good Ronnie, thanks. Any other question? otherwise we can vote
<cprofitt> I am set to vote
<Ronnie> yes, definitly release parties and UGJ
<Ronnie> but also improvements on the insight in the current community
<greg-g> good deal
<Ronnie> and finding out whats needed to improve it even more
<Ronnie> we also working very hard on the new website: Demo: http://communityserver.ubuntu-nl.org/
<greg-g> looks good!
<czajkowski> well done
<Ronnie> and were planning to do more workshops in the ubuntu-nl-mwanzo team
<xdatap1> Ronnie, that one is an interesting idea, I'll ask you more info next days about it :)
<Ronnie> which will result in more active participation in the community
<xdatap1> let's vote, then
<xdatap1> #voters czajkowski xdatap1 greg-g cprofitt
<meetingology> Current voters: cprofitt czajkowski greg-g xdatap1
<xdatap1> #vote Ubuntu-NL reapproval
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu-NL reapproval
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cprofitt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cprofitt
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<xdatap1> +1, keep up the good work
<meetingology> +1, keep up the good work received from xdatap1
<xdatap1> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu-NL reapproval
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Thomas_de_Graaff> \o/
<xdatap1> congratulation guys
<StefandeVries> \o/ Hoorah!
<Idroy> \o/
<cprofitt> congrats folks... job well done!!
<Ronnie> thx xdatap1, cprofitt, czajkowski, greg-g
<oCean> Great. Gefeliciteerd mannen!
<Thomas_de_Graaff> Thx. council.
<xdatap1> let's move on, Belgium Team
<pvandewyngaerde> hello from Belgium
<Ronnie> good luck south neighbours
<pvandewyngaerde> congratulations Ronnie
<leoquant> good luck belgium!
<JanC> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BelgianTeam/ReapprovalApplication2012
<cprofitt> Who is here from Ubuntu-BE?
<JanC> o/
<pvandewyngaerde> o/
<jean7491>  hi from belgian loco team
<cprofitt> Good to see you folks; I appreciate your attending JanC pvandewyngaerde jean7491
<xdatap1> Hello JanC! Nice to see you. Please introduce yourself and introduce your team
<FOAD> o/
<czajkowski> welcome folks
<JanC> well, I'm the loco contact of the Belgian Team, and we promote Ubuntu in Belgium, as you can see on the ReApproval wiki page  âº
<czajkowski> nicely detailed
<czajkowski> and I know from hands on experience of seeing the team in action at FOSDEM how active this team is
<cprofitt> I am curious how the idea of having a council for your team is working out; has it helped the team?
<pvandewyngaerde> i am also a member of the council
<FOAD> And I give moral support.
<cprofitt> FOAD: that can be very important at times :-)
<FOAD> Thank you. :)
<xdatap1> I like the idea of "Ubuntu-be Promise"
<xdatap1> well done guys
<cprofitt> JanC: I am curious how the idea of having a council for your team is working out; has it helped the team?
<JanC> cprofitt: good question; as personally I am not really convinced of its added value right now, but maybe in the future...
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> similar experience with my team
<cprofitt> from the wiki event entries it does not look like the team is affected by it... lots of activity
<czajkowski> JanC: is there a reason the team doesnt use the LTP, not that there is a requirement to use it, just curious
<cprofitt> I was just going to ask that as well
<JanC> czajkowski: mostly because we already used infrastructure on our own site
<cprofitt> loco.ubuntu.com makes it very easy to see future and past events
<czajkowski> JanC: wouldnt you prefer to see all events on the LTP where all other teams use it ?
<JanC> I discussed changing that with our former webmaster, bu as he emigrated to Canada recently...
<cprofitt> the issue for me with LTP is the ability for new users to find only one source of information
<JanC> so we need to get back to that in the future with the new one
<cprofitt> looking at loco.ubuntu.com leads me to beleive that there is no activity... which is clearly not the case
<czajkowski> though I've seen your flyers and info booths, I do know all your work is up to date and would show only one place
<JanC> the idea would be to pull in events from LTP then
<cprofitt> +1 JanC - that would work fantastic
<greg-g> JanC: another qustion: how do you plan on increasing exposure of Ubuntu/Free Software in schools (as stated on your roadmap)?
<cprofitt> I would really like to have the great example your team sets and have the entire global community see it
<czajkowski> JanC: that would be nice, but again no requirement for it, other than it bein nice to see all teams use it
<czajkowski> makes it easuer to see how teams are doing from one site
<JanC> I don't think we really have a roadmap as the team, but some individuals are working with schools, and we have the company that spreads awesome Ubuntu multiseats in schools & libraries  âº
<greg-g> awesome!
<xdatap1> any other question? otherwise we can start voting
<cprofitt> all set here
<greg-g> go for it! :)
<xdatap1> #vote Ubuntu-BE reapproval
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu-BE reapproval
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<jean7491> about schools:as now there are only individual initiatives, hope is that a council helpshould help coordination and encouraging other initiatives
<cprofitt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cprofitt
<FOAD> I just want to say Belgium is the best.
<xdatap1> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xdatap1
<FOAD> +1
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<czajkowski> FOAD: only council members vote
<FOAD> Oh, sorry.
<pvandewyngaerde> FAIL
<FOAD> -1 then.
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<xdatap1> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu-BE reapproval
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<FOAD> I apologize profoundly.
<cprofitt> no worries FOAD
<greg-g> congrats!
<xdatap1> congratulation Belgium!
<pvandewyngaerde> thanks
<JanC> \o/
<cprofitt> congrats Ubuntu-BE
<JanC> thanks all!
<StefandeVries> Congratulations, Belgian LoCo!
<jean7491> thx
<Thomas_de_Graaff> Gefeliciteerd :D
<xdatap1> ok, next topic. cprofitt would you introduce it?
<cprofitt> sure
<cprofitt> can you set the topic
<xdatap1> #topic Team Contact vs. Team Owner - can we leverage loco.ubuntu.com?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Team Contact vs. Team Owner - can we leverage loco.ubuntu.com?
<cprofitt> As you all know we have has some issues with teams getting notified about reapproval due to team owners and team contacts not being the same or because team owners have gone off the grid even though the team is active.
<cprofitt> I would like to suggest that we use loco.ubuntu.com as the source for team contact information as it allows the sep. of the two roles and it allows multiple users in those roles
<FOAD> Hurray, congratulations my Belgian brethren.
<pvandewyngaerde> btw, on the wiki it says there is a bug created when a team needs reapproval,  was there a bug for ubuntu-be ? i did not find one
<cprofitt> pvandewyngaerde: the bugs are private
<cprofitt> so it is not searchable
<czajkowski> FOAD: pvandewyngaerde we're on a new topic
<FOAD> I know that.
<cprofitt> does that seem reasonable to the council to use loco.ubuntu.com?
<czajkowski> well all teams are imported there from LP so all details should be up to date and makes it easier to find out who to contact rather than seaching lp
<cprofitt> that was my thought czajkowski
<cprofitt> would that require a re-write of any tools?
<xdatap1> we send emails with LP, right?
<czajkowski> xdatap1: nop
<czajkowski> you send a mail from what ever tool you use to send mails
<czajkowski> only if people do not have public addresses do you us elp to contct them
<czajkowski> which I do object if you are the team contact you shouldbe able to be contacted and email address public
<greg-g> that changed, no?
<cprofitt> +1 czajkowski
<xdatap1> how do we send re-approval emails?
<greg-g> (I thought there was a change to the way LP sent emails to people with private emails)
<cprofitt> I would think re-approval emails would be generated by LP via the bugs
<cprofitt> which would send an email to anyone we subscribe
<cprofitt> but not 100% sure on how it was done in the past.
<czajkowski> greg-g: it does email them
<JanC> yep, I got mail once I was subscribed
<greg-g> cagood deal
<czajkowski> cprofitt: once you add the team contact sure.
<xdatap1> cprofitt, so the proposa is to use the loco dir just a white page for LoCos contatcs, right? Not changing the way we send email
<czajkowski> which would have been gotten from the LTP
<greg-g> btw, I'm fine with this, if I don't see the vote due to lag
<cprofitt> yep
<cprofitt> just use loco.ubuntu.com as the source of who contacts are
<cprofitt> do we need an actual vote or just an informal +1?
<cprofitt> I don't think we really need a vote
<cprofitt> just want to make sure we are all on the same page
<xdatap1> It's fine for me
<czajkowski> all one the same page here
<cprofitt> cool.
<cprofitt> I will motion that we adjourn the meeting
<FOAD> Okay.
<xdatap1> shall we end, then?
<czajkowski> yes please
<xdatap1> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 21 20:52:59 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-21-20.08.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-21-20.08.html
<xdatap1> thanks everybody for coming
<FOAD> No problem.
<Oer> Ubuntu have fun!
<StefandeVries> Again, thanks to the council for their judgement on the Dutch reapproval. Goodbye!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-22
 * slangasek waves
<bdmurray> hi
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 22 16:01:43 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> well, down by two today... should be a quick meeting yes? :)
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> stgraber bdmurray barry ev doko slangasek
<stgraber> hello
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - SRUs for ifenslave/vlan/bridge-utils are finally in oneiric-updates!
<stgraber>  - Did some more IPv6 testing, trying to switch to single-stack for part of my network so testing current radvd, NM and squid. Filed a few bugs for cyphermox :)
<stgraber>  - Updated isc-dhcp to 4.1-ESV-R4 that's their Extended Support Version, did a call for testing and will upload it later today.
<stgraber> - Friendly-Recovery
<stgraber>  - Implemented the 'system information' option and did a few more bugfixes. James proposed some good changes, will review the merge and ask for a FFe to get that added.
<stgraber> - LTSP
<stgraber>  - Released LTSP 5.3 after two years of development (well, 729 days so not "exactly"), uploaded to Ubuntu. 5.3.1 has already been released as bugfix release but I'll probably wait till 5.3.2 to update Ubuntu.
<stgraber>  - Still some work on the udeb needed to finally kill bug 813837
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 813837 in ltsp (Ubuntu Precise) "ltsp client not able to load boot file: ltsp/amd64.tmp/pxelinux.0" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/813837
<stgraber> - TPM
<stgraber>  - Got pretty close to having a working TPM authenticating on wireless, everything seems to work except for some broken pkcs11 output and problems using the private key...
<stgraber>  - Started looking at bug 934799, can probably be fixed by manually trigger the udev rule or doing the chown/chmod in the postinst
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 934799 in trousers (Ubuntu) "trousers start script has exit status 137" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934799
<stgraber>  - Also bug 926305 is high on the TPM todo list
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 926305 in opencryptoki (Ubuntu) "fails to load modules for pkcs11 backends" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/926305
<stgraber> - Installer
<stgraber>  - Merged a couple of fixes in Ubiquity, updated test suite and uploaded a new Ubiquity, will spend a lot more time working on installer bugs from now on.
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Uploaded updated udev to avoid flooding the host with events when a container boots.
<stgraber>  - Some bugfixes for the Ubuntu template and review of the Ubuntu server guide's section on LXC.
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - pastebinit 1.3 has now been released and is in Precise
<stgraber>  - Did quite a few last minute sponsoring of new packages for Precise, most of them are in source NEW
<stgraber> (done
<stgraber> )
<bdmurray> short week as monday was a holiday
<bdmurray> tested bug 933035 regarding resolvconf
<bdmurray> merged bug patterns from Vadim Rutkovsky
<bdmurray> bug control application review for brettcornwall
<bdmurray> bugbot fix for package-install-segfault re and mythfrontend
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 933035 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "Upgrade from 11.10 to Precise: resolvconf 1.63ubuntu7 fails to configure with "cp: cannot create regular file `/run/resolvconf/resolv.conf': No such file or directory"" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/933035
<bdmurray> bug triage of some ubiquity hard disk error bugs
<bdmurray> duplicate finding kernel install failures on live media (bug 932663)
<bdmurray> duplicate finding filesystem.size missing (bug 557388)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932663 in casper (Ubuntu) "kernel upgrade failed on a USB live system created by usb-creator" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932663
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 557388 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity crashes over recipe that leads to "Missing filesystem.size."" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/557388
<bdmurray> flot / jquery work to dynamically set the size of the div for the recent package bug task graphs
<bdmurray> modifications to recent package bug tasks graph not to fade the colors of the stacked bar
<bdmurray> moved the legend in flot outside of the graph
<bdmurray> recent package bug graphs making the labels on the y-axis hyperlinks to full launchpad searches
<bdmurray> fixed lucid-proposed version of update-manager (apport hook)
<bdmurray> update of OneiricOcelot release notes regarding wubi (regarding rev 241)
<bdmurray> wrote lp-grab-descriptions based on lp-grab-attachments
<bdmurray> ubiquity apport package hook modifications to fix bug 874727
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 874727 in apport (Ubuntu Precise) "media error bug report blocking is incomplete" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/874727
<bdmurray> â
<slangasek> barry:
<barry> telepathy-qt4 ftbfs, libdbusmenu ftbfs, bug 934592 (oneconf ftbfs), sync python-keyring, python issue 13703 (hash collision dos issue), sync'd sphinx, claws-mail, claws-mail-extra-plugins.  todo: looking at ftbfs and nbs reports; bugs, bugs, bugs and more +1 maint work; still working on python issue 13703, hopefully will have joint release candidates in the next day or two.  ð¢
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 934592 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "Out of date po/POTFILES.in causes FTBFS" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934592
<slangasek> ev:
<ev> - Released some new versions of whoopsie (0.1.8, 0.1.9, and 0.1.10).
<ev> - Don't start the crash reporting daemon if crash reporting is turned off.
<ev> - Cleaned up of the core processing code and much of the backend code, in
<ev>   preparation for deployment.
<ev> - Filed RT 51011 for deploying the crash database.  Had a catch up with James
<ev>   to discuss where things stand.
<ev> - Started leveraging cloud-init to build out an end to end system testing
<ev>   framework, so we can ensure that every change works all the way down to the
<ev>   database.
<ev> - Figured out, with help from #bzr, how to merge a subdirectory of a branch
<ev>   into a subdirectory of another branch without losing history.  Case in
<ev>   point, moving Whoopsie's GNOME Control Center preferences page into
<ev>   activity-log-manager:
<ev>    bzr fast-export /tmp/whoopsie-export
<ev>    bzr fast-import-filter -i preferences/ /tmp/whoopsie-export > /tmp/whoopsie-export-filter
<ev>    bzr fast-import /tmp/whoopsie-export-filter /tmp/whoopsie-export-branch
<ev>    cd /tmp/whoopsie-export-branch
<ev>    bzr mkdir diagnostics
<ev>    bzr mv * diagnostics
<ev>    bzr commit
<ev>    cd ~/bzr/activity-log-manager
<ev>    bzr merge -r0..-1 /tmp/whoopsie-export-branch
<ev>    bzr mv diagnostics src/diagnostics
<ev>    bzr commit
<ev> - Moved the crash reporting preferences page from a separate page into a tab
<ev>   in the activity-log-manager page:
<ev>   https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/activity-log-manager/whoopsie/+merge/93899
<ev> - Finally finished addressing all of Martin's concerns in my apport merge,
<ev>   after lots of subsequent fixes \o/:
<ev>   https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/apport/whoopsie/+merge/92753
<ev> - Interview calls.
<ev> (done!)
<doko> surprisingly short today ...
<barry> ev: you should write that up somewhere more permanent than irc :)
<doko> - openjdk-7 build, currently building in precise
<doko> - fixing and forwarding issues in openjdk7 and -web to IcedTea
<doko> - openjdk6 pull from the branch to fix GC issues on ARM
<doko> - eglibc fixes (gdm restart, ARM dbg package, reboot required)
<doko> - look into some gcc-4.6 issues
<doko> - python2.7 and python3.2 merges for FF.
<doko> - look into gcc-4.7 bootstrap failures on ARM (now fixed)
<doko> - help Linaro understanding the eglibc packaging (Ken working on builds)
<doko> done
<ev> barry: :)
<slangasek> are the apport UI changes landed, then? I noticed my last crash had a different dialog
<ev> yes, finally
<slangasek>  * short week, celebrated PrÃ©sident Day on Monday by eating camembert and butter
<slangasek>  * resolvconf upload fixing the last of the known issues
<slangasek>  * new upstream release of qemu-linaro uploaded; now usable as a buildd on a hardy kernel
<slangasek>  * upload cmake to let more packages in precise/main be auto-cross-buildable
<slangasek>  * work on getting upstart in Ubuntu into a usable state
<slangasek>  * interviewing
<slangasek> done
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<doko> Andreas Moog did file the ftbfs issues from the last test rebuild, so I hadn't to do it
<bdmurray> Not too many to look at today
<slangasek> good, I gorged myself on bugs yesterday at Mardi Gras anyway
<bdmurray> I assigned bug 883618 to the team recently
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883618 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Console upgrade useless.. XSet warnings all over the screen" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883618
<doko> would be nice if somebody could approve the setting of the precice release branch
<slangasek> doko: what do you mean?
<barry> slangasek: ew
<slangasek> barry: ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray: yeah, I was just assigning that one to jodh
<barry> slangasek: and right before lunch!
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay, great
<slangasek> heh, sorry
<barry> :)
<slangasek> fwiw I didn't see any references to xset in the current update-manager code, so I'm not sure where that comes from
<doko> hmm, looks like it already is: see bug 935038
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 935038 in ball (Ubuntu Precise) "ball version 1.4.1+20111206-3 FTBFS on armhf in precise" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/935038
<doko> we just need to confirm these
<slangasek> doko: as in, marking them confirmed?
<doko> yes
<slangasek> I'm not sure that matters anymore, now that LP automatically moves half the bugs to "confirmed" as soon as someone comments on them
<doko> heh
<bdmurray> comments on? that's a bit unfair
<bdmurray> its even easier you just have to click affects me too ;-)
<doko> so now we ignore bugs in state Confirmed instead if New? ;-P
<doko> of even
<slangasek> "triaged" maybe makes a difference; but they should be obvious anyway... don't see the point in spending the effort moving the bug state around
<slangasek> let's just fix the bugs instead :)
<slangasek> doko: exactly ;)
<doko> slangasek, makes sense, thare are more to ignore ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray: doesn't it also do it when someone comments though?  which is much less certain to indicate that it's a confirmed bug
<doko> can't type today
<slangasek> bdmurray: anyway, any other bugs in the menagerie?
<bdmurray> slangasek: no affects me too or a bug is made a duplicate of it
<slangasek> ah, ok
<bdmurray> bug 936761 - is there anything to be done there?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 936761 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Mythbuntu upgrade from Lucid to Precise pulls in all of unity" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/936761
<slangasek> looks like the desktop team needs to fix it
<slangasek> reassigned the bug to gnome-session
<bdmurray> thanks
<bdmurray> then bug 824708 has a rather high heat as a lot of people have said it affects them
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 824708 in aptitude (Ubuntu) "Changelog download failed: Download queue destroyed." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/824708
<stgraber> slangasek: I've noticed Xubuntu and Mythbuntu at some point started assuming that they always get installed from a media where they contorl the available set of packages, not sure if it's related though.
<slangasek> stgraber: sorta-related
<slangasek> the moral of the story is, they shouldn't do that :)
<stgraber> slangasek: so for example installing Xubuntu from netinstall will get you unity-greeter that will crash at boot time. Installing from media, they don't have unity-greeter and so fallback to lightdm-gtk-greeter which is what they want and so works
<stgraber> that's currently making the automated upgrades for at least Xubuntu fail (so I turned them off for now as they're aware of the issue)
<slangasek> they should ensure there are suitable alternatives in the underlying dependencies and use a metapackage to express their preferences
<slangasek> bdmurray: do you know why pitti has set a milestone for 824708?
<doko> bug 824708
<bdmurray> slangasek: no I do not
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 824708 in aptitude (Ubuntu) "Changelog download failed: Download queue destroyed." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/824708
<slangasek> oh, he was just pushing an a2 milestone forward
<slangasek> so it has high heat, but I don't think it's something for us to spend time on
<slangasek> they can just use 'apt-get changelog' instead
<slangasek> (and aptitude has much more serious problems in precise, since it doesn't do multiarch)
<bdmurray> okay, makes sense
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> that's all from me
<slangasek> cool
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything more to discuss?  the floor's open :)
<doko> the armel panda buildds did land
<doko> but not yet the third powerpc
<slangasek> I've pestered IS about the powerpc already
<slangasek> the RT ticket has a deadline of Mar 1
<slangasek> which I'm told gets looked at :)
<slangasek> (and there's activity on the ticket in the past week)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 22 16:33:15 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-16.01.html
<slangasek> the end
<slangasek> thanks all
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<balloons> yikes yikes..
<balloons> 10 mins early to 5 mins late.. so easy to do
<balloons> everyone ready?
<balloons> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 22 17:06:08 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:
<balloons> Can we get a roll call of who's about? :-)
<phillw> o/
<josepht> o/
<balloons> alrighty... so let's get into the agenda
<balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<balloons> ACTION: phillw to update wiki to better reflect activities and automated testing pages
<phillw> I've just edited https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam so Automated testing is on the front page, does it need to be highlighted further?
<balloons> yes, I see that
<balloons> nice
<phillw> The actual page reads well as it is. I don't want to make it too long and involved that it is hard to follow.
<balloons> I would add the only other change I would make (and perhaps I can learn how, or someone can help) is to add a big icon at the top for the activities link
<balloons> thoughts on that
<balloons> ?
<phillw> That can be done.
<balloons> ok, not wanting to add to your workload.. I'll walk down this sidepath a moment
<balloons> mm
<balloons> looks like I edit this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Header
<balloons> that was the key I was missing I think
<phillw> balloons: that's right, the 'fun' bit is choosing the icon :)
<balloons> ok, I'll take that action as a learning item
<balloons> hehe
<balloons> [ACTION] balloons to edit the wiki to add activities as an icon link :-)
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to edit the wiki to add activities as an icon link :-)
<balloons> ok, that's it for previous items
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Updates
<balloons> jibel, gema you about?
<balloons> guess not :-)
<balloons> Well, as everyone knows beta1 is coming up soon, and we're going to have some rounds of testing again as part of that
<balloons> We are trying to get more people involved in the iso testing, and in addition, make it easier for people who want to help, to be able to do so
<balloons> currently the process is a bit confusing at times to follow, in order to coordinate the iso testing -- especially when there is/are respins
<balloons> I'd love to hear suggestions about how to make it easier and get more folks involved
<albrigha> balloons, i'm here as well
<balloons> If your not following @UbuntuTesting on twitter, you can do so. the team is going to try sending status updates thru twitter to help communicate for people who aren't idling all day in #ubuntu-testing
<balloons> this way if a respin is needed, etc, it can be communicated more easily
<balloons> in addition I'd like to hit up the mailing list a bit more with this information
<balloons> hello albrigha ;-)
<phillw> I think an email to the list when a respin is done may also be useful. I don't tweet, but I do read my mail :)
<balloons> phillw, I'm not a tweeter etheir, but the more communication the better at this point.. I think it's not communicated well atm
<balloons> So any other thoughts on getting people involved? what would be helpful to you folks that are doing testing today?
<balloons> I found the process over the course of the last 2 iso testing cycles not too bad. the confusion came from understanding how to coordinate more-so than how to run the tests and get the isos.. the wiki explains that part fairly well
<balloons> regardless, send to the list any thoughts you may have on that (or anything else you might think about)
<balloons> ok, so moving on then
<balloons> if there are no more comments :-0
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Flavor Updates
<balloons> phillw, want to talk a bit about lubuntu first?
<phillw> lubuntu testing is going okay. A bug has been found and raised regarding the pae headers appearing in a non-pae installation, ppc testing seems also to be progressing well.
<phillw> the pae / non-pae affects all flavours, it appears.
<phillw> that's about all for lubuntu.
<balloons> awesome.. and I saw you might have a couple more iso testers for this next round :-) hopefully they come thru
<phillw> yeah, once we hit beta hopefully we will have more people.
<balloons> ok, how about kubuntu.. anyone about?
<balloons> xubuntu?
<balloons> I'm afraid we're missing some folks, but I'll give them a chance if anyone is in here..
<balloons> edubuntu?
<balloons> ubuntu studio?
<Riddell> kubuntu should have a new flavour appearing shortly
<Riddell> kubuntu-active for tablets/touch UIs
<balloons> hello riddell.. ohh neat
<Riddell> minimal QA needs ("tech preview")
<Riddell> but should be added to the ISO tracker
<balloons> gotcha.. cool cool.. and what hardware will it install on?
<Riddell> i386 (not going to bother with ARM until we know it works)
<balloons> ok, sounds exciting.. so will it be out before beta1 then?
<Riddell> and I don't want to even do install for QA, it's just a case of running the live system to check
<Riddell> balloons: hope so, I've been making the changes to the CD build scripts today
<balloons> that's exciting.. I saw the spark tablet sold out on pre-order
<balloons> lots of interest, it's a cool project I'll be keeping my eye on certainly
<balloons> alrighty, if no other flavors have updates, we'll move on to the final topic
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Other topics
<balloons> Which is just really, the catch all. anything anyone wanted to add to the agenda.. nows' the time to speak up
<ScottK> BTW, thanks for everyone who tested Kubuntu images
<ScottK> Particularly 10.04.4
<ScottK> We were able to get the release done, which was in doubt.
<balloons> thanks ScottK.. if no one has anything else, then I'll close.. And as always, happy testing to everyone
<gema> thanks balloons , sorry I was late and empty handed (i.e. nothing to say)
<balloons> I should note I enjoyed getting my feet wet on testing the screenreader install.. I still botched it a bit, but it was fun learning
<balloons> thanks to charlie-tca for helping me out on it
<balloons> hello gema.. no worries
<balloons> we were just ending, hehe
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 22 17:42:13 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-17.06.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-17.06.html
 * bdmurray waves
<Ursinha> hello
<s9iper1> hello people !
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 22 18:05:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdmurray> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<bdmurray> so we don't have any actions from the last meeting but we should do something about this list of dbus no reply bugs
<bdmurray> that's this - http://paste.ubuntu.com/843325/
<bdmurray> any ideas?
<Ursinha> bdmurray, yes, considering it's not a huge list we could take some time and find possible valid bugs there and just mark others as incomplete
<Ursinha> maybe the reporter won't mind giving us more information so at least we could tell if those are new bugs or duplicates of existing ones
<Ursinha> worst cases the bug will expire
<Ursinha> but we did what we could
<bdmurray> okay, so put it in a wiki page? and each take a few?
<Ursinha> bdmurray, that works
<bdmurray> #action put list of dbus no reply bugs into a wiki page and email bugsquad regarding list
<meetingology> ACTION: put list of dbus no reply bugs into a wiki page and email bugsquad regarding list
<bdmurray> #topic Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> Ursinha: do you have anything?
<Ursinha> bdmurray, no sir, catching up after carnival
<bdmurray> okay, jsalisbury?
<bdmurray> I don't have much to report bug wise
<bdmurray> However, I made something like lp-grab-attachments that grabs bug descriptions so I could have all the bug descriptions about a package locally available for searching
<bdmurray> I found this useful with update-manager at least and was wondering if anybody else would be interested in it.
<Ursinha> yes sir
<Ursinha> we always need to grab the logs at least
<bdmurray> Ursinha: hmm? lp-grab-attachments grabs the logs
<bdmurray> with update-manager there are lot of bugs with no log files and just an error message in the description
<bdmurray> that's what I wrote grab-descriptions for
<Ursinha> I meant this is useful because we need the logs and it grabs the logs :)
<bdmurray> lp-grab-attachments is already part of lptools
<Ursinha> ok, sorry the confusion, you said you created another one that grabs descriptions instead of logs?
<bdmurray> yes, just descriptions
<Ursinha> if so, that's useful as well
<bdmurray> okay
<Ursinha> as lp search doesn't work
<bdmurray> Ursinha: right ;-)
<Ursinha> :)
<bdmurray> #topic Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
<bdmurray> anyone?
<Ursinha> no sir
<om26er> the new change made the touchpad problematic for me guess that's important
<bdmurray> om26er: is there a bug about that?
<om26er> if you double tap with the touchpad it gets stuck that breaks my work flow
<bdmurray> I'd imagine so
<om26er> bug 934770
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 934770 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (Ubuntu) "Trackpad behavior change causes tap-and-drag to lock" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934770
<om26er> (my internet is crappy with a lag of liek 20sec)
<bdmurray> om26er: it looks like chase is aware of it and monitoring it
<bdmurray> om26er: so it seems to be a good state
<bdmurray> thanks for bringing that up though
<s9iper1> bdmurray: another bug which is again affecting the people and also me is this   i am not be able  to  install  google chrome
<s9iper1> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/827615
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 827615 in software-center (Ubuntu) "software-center crashed with TypeError in show_available_packages(): this constructor takes no arguments" [Medium,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> s9iper1: looking
<bdmurray> s9iper1: okay, I'll into this more after the meeting that needs some attention.  Thanks for bringing this up!
<Ursinha> bdmurray, I can do that as it's a desktop issue...
<bdmurray> Ursinha: okay, let me know if you need any help
<Ursinha> sure, thanks
<s9iper1>  bdmurray:yw and an announcement for us people empathy 3.3.90 will use telepathy-haze to connect to MSN, which means it uses libpurple, the same as pidgin does
<bdmurray> #action Ursinha to investigate bug 827615
<meetingology> ACTION: Ursinha to investigate bug 827615
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 827615 in software-center (Ubuntu) "software-center crashed with TypeError in show_available_packages(): this constructor takes no arguments" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/827615
<bdmurray> with that well move to
<bdmurray> #topic any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: any other business?
<Ampelbein> o/
<bdmurray> Ampelbein: yes?
<Ampelbein> I don't know if that's the right meeting, but can something be done about LP auto-confirming developer bugs?
<Ampelbein> I mean like, can it exclude bugs tagged e.g. ftbfs, or based on title?
<bdmurray> How did a bug get auto confirmed?
<Ampelbein> When someone clicks the "This affects me too" link, the bug is set to confirmed by LP.
<bdmurray> and why should it not be confirmed?
<Ampelbein> Because for example for sponsoring related bugs, the bug status was used to communicate the state with the sponsors. So, "new" -> free to take, "confirmed" -> ready for sponsoring, "In Progress" -> sponsor is looking, "Incomplete" -> needs work.
<Ursinha> Ampelbein, shouldn't it be "Triaged" ready for sponsoring, instead of "Confirmed"?
<Ursinha> that would solve the issue
<Ampelbein> Ursinha: Yes, when the sponsoree is actually able to set that.
<Ursinha> besides, the bug is ready to be worked on when it has enough information to be fixed, that should be Triaged
<Ursinha> ah, I see the point
<bdmurray> I thought the sponsoring process used team subscription to indicate it was ready for sponsorship
<bdmurray> Anyway, I'd bring this up with a Launchpad stakeholder
<bdmurray> I believe bryce is the community one
<Ursinha> he is
<Ampelbein> bdmurray: See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue
<Ampelbein> (Section "Notes for contributors"
<broder> fwiw, i, as a sponsor, don't really pay a lot of attention to bug status when i'm looking at a bug
<broder> i use whether or not ~ubuntu-sponsors is subscribed as an indicator
<broder> and i unsubscribe ubuntu-sponsors when i determine something isn't ready
<Ampelbein> Me mostly too, but when looking through e.g. the ftbfs bug list, I ignore anything with Status "Confirmed" as that usually indicates someone already worked on the issue.
<Ampelbein> And an auto-confirmed bug could potentially fall through the cracks. I agree it's not a very very important problem, and I'll bring it up on the list.
<tumbleweed> Ampelbein: you can't trust Confirmed, LP does that automatically these days
<Ursinha> Ampelbein, how hard would it be to ask people to add a tag instead?
<Ampelbein> tumbleweed: ... yes, that's the whole discussion we have ;-)
<tumbleweed> ah, I see
<tumbleweed> I'm using Triaged instead of Confirmed for process bugs
<bdmurray> any other topics?
<bdmurray> okay thanks everyone
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 22 18:46:32 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-18.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-18.05.html
<Ursinha> thanks bdmurray
<gilir> #startmeeting Lubuntu Team Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 22 20:05:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
 * gilir looks for people around :)
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<phillw> o/
<wxl> â¦o/
<david_j_r> `Â°  (back row)
<gilir> agenda : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<Yorvyk> o/
<gilir> no actions from previous meeting, so we can move to the next item :)
<gilir> if you have a weekly report planned for the meeting, but nothing to say, just ping me outsite the room, so I can skip the item
 * gilir tries to make the meeting faster :)
<gilir> #topic phillw - Weekly report - Update from QA meeting and team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  phillw - Weekly report - Update from QA meeting and team
<phillw> Because of confusion caused by re-spins during testing, an email will be sent out to the qa mailing list when re-spins happen. When lubuntu iso's are re-spun, I'll forward them to the main lubuntu mailing list in order to keep the chat down :)
<wxl> respins hm?
<phillw> when a fault in the iso requires it to be re-issued.
<wxl> oh like them being too big ;)
<phillw> such as a major bug.
<phillw> wxl: the milestone releases are always on-size, it is just the dailys that suffer. Now we aer post-freeze, this also should mean the dailies are CD sized.
<phillw> s/aer/are
<wxl> delightful as i'd like to do some ppc/ubuntu testing to compare to issues with lubuntu testing
<gilir> beta 1 is next week, testing for it should start shortly :)
<gilir> phillw, anything more for QA ?
<MrChrisDruif> Just an educated guess: after their released?
<phillw> it is for that reason they're going to let us know when the Release Candidates for the beta 1 are up. If one of them has a major problem, it will be re-spun in time for beta.
<phillw> that's all from QA :)
<MrChrisDruif> they're*
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: the test versions of each mile-stone is put on test a few days before the mile stone is released. in this case it will be for beta 1
<gilir> if people want to start ISO testing for beta 1
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: the rather involved proceedure is documented at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing#QA_testing_of_Milestone_releases
<gilir> they can probably ask question on IRC when they start
<MrChrisDruif> *noted* (by meetingology)
<gilir> or read documentation send by phillw :)
<StephenSmally> Damn, i'm always late
<phillw> I do ask that testers do join the lubuntu-qa team, even if just until final release
<gilir> ok thanks phillw :)
<phillw> https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-qa
<gilir> nothing to report for the next items, so I move directly to dev team report
<gilir> #topic gilir - Weekly report - Update from Devs teams
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  gilir - Weekly report - Update from Devs teams
<gilir> a few thinks to report
<gilir> thinks / things
<gilir> ISO are under 700 Mo :)
<gilir> and maximised windows by default is turn off
<Yorvyk> \o/
<gilir> artwork was updated, but there is still issue with the theme
<david_j_r> :D
<gilir> no need to report bugs so far, we are working on it :)
<gilir> any questions ?
<gilir> ok, moving to next item :)
<gilir> #topic Yorvyk - Guidelines for alternative apps in distro
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Yorvyk - Guidelines for alternative apps in distro
<StephenSmally> This is interesting
<StephenSmally> (if i got what that means)
<gilir> Yorvyk, you want to start with it ?
<Yorvyk> OK
<Yorvyk> People keep suggesting apps for Lubuntu or replacement apps some of whichg are suitable possibilities others are not.
<Yorvyk> I would like to set up somewherre to keep track of them so they can be looked at in more detail but we could do with some sort of guidelines for suitable apps to be considered.
<MrChrisDruif> I agree
<StephenSmally> Yep, for example some people want LibreOffice on Lubuntu by default, which is clearly not possible (or not useful)
<Yorvyk> Is this a good idea and should we through it open to the mailing list forum?
<gilir> IMO, testing and considering new application by default is very time consuming, for not so much advantages
<MrChrisDruif> It's not suitable for a default installation, but that isn't the current subject ^_^
<jmarsden|work> If you care enough to do it, you write the guidelines and manage a wiki page listing the suggestions.  Keep this kind of "suggstions" away from the devs...
<gilir> I like the idea to make a page with some advises, balcklisted apps, and already discussed apps
<david_j_r> Yes: "already discussed apps" helpful for new users (like me)
<jmarsden|work> david_j_r: Why?  As an end user, you can install any app you choose.  The issue is what to *include* on the Lubuntu CD and install by default.
<gilir> Yorvyk, maybe you can start to gather some ideas on a wiki page ?
<Yorvyk> The problem is apps have been discussed and a re 'lost' in the mailing list somewhere.
<MrChrisDruif> jmarsden|work; why would the user-base suggestions be kept from the devs? If they are properly supported by factual tests etc?
<wxl> what happened to that whole voting idea?
<jmarsden|work> MrChrisDruif: RIght, once a cycle the devs can look at the list, but the devs should not deal with all the suggestions as they flow in...
<StephenSmally> Consider that a list of suitable apps for Lubuntu (for example how to choose a photo manager) would be a good idea for newcomers
<david_j_r> jmarsden|work: That's what I mean: new types might want something in distro that is already crossed off for good reason
<Yorvyk> THis isn't for the ISO.  Unless some app is no longer supported and we need a replacement.
<jmarsden|work> david_j_r: OK... new types shouldn't want things "in the distro", they should just add what they themselves want :)
<david_j_r> yep :)
<david_j_r> (apologies if I am confusing "ISO" with "distro" -  my bad)
<gilir> Yorvyk, ok, so the subject is only on application suitable to be used on Lubuntu (not to be installed by default)
<jmarsden|work> Yorvyk: if it isnt for the ISO, then every app is perhaps suitable for *some* user out there... so the list of apps is the entire set of apps in the repositories :)
 * gilir didn't understant too :-/
<gilir> jmarsden|work, but you know some apps is not really recommends for Lubuntu users :)
<jmarsden|work> gilir: Well, maybe some Lubuntu users run on a 8 core machine with 32GB RAM... for them, every app could be "suitable" :)
<gilir> jmarsden|work, sure, but such people doesn't need the advises :)
<jmarsden|work> It's pointless having a list of things that are not suitable for inclusion, but may be OK for some users... you'd have to define a list for "users with 2GB", "users with 4GB", users with quad cores... etc etc...
<gilir> I still think Lubuntu is primary for people with computers with low specs
<jmarsden|work> I agree.
<jmarsden|work> and for them, the included apps are suitable.
<Yorvyk> My thought was to try and gather a list of truly lightweight apps somewhere. so that we can offer a suiable alternative if somebody would like to use something that won't run on a low resouce machine.
<MrChrisDruif> I *thought* the list was for proposal of inclusion into the default installation? What other use would there be for such a list?
<phillw> Yorvyk: I think, as suggested, a wiki page would be excellen t for that.
<gilir> jmarsden|work, maybe just adding a note on this page, like "If you want to keep Lubuntu fast on your old computer ..."
<jmarsden|work> Yorvyk: if an app is truly lightweight, then it *will* run on a low resource machine...
<Yorvyk> After some testing and maybe a vote suitable apps could be highlighted in LSC
<wxl> Yorvyk: this is similar to a suggestion that i made before. it requires us to define what makes an app "suitable" and then it requires a lot of work testing apps.
<StephenSmally> Definitively possible
<jmarsden|work> Yorvyk: If you want to do a wiki page listing such apps, go for it.
<StephenSmally> well, is not so difficult define if an app is light
<wxl> yeah in the end i think something like a wiki page like jmarsden|work is suggesting makes the most amount of sense
<gilir> Yorvyk, yes, I think you have to start this page, before futher discussion can happen :)
<wxl> StephenSmally: if you have 256mb of ram versus 1.5gb i'm thinking you probably have a different definition :D
<StephenSmally> well, anyway if doesn't have too much dependencies and not use too much ram
<Yorvyk> I'll get something set up and thenm I think what I want may make more sense.
<wxl> StephenSmally: but what's "too much?
<StephenSmally> it depends on the application
<gilir> #action Yorvyk to start the suggested apps wiki page
<meetingology> ACTION: Yorvyk to start the suggested apps wiki page
<StephenSmally> a simple utility (as a text editor) shouldn't use more that 15 Mb RAM on an i386 machine
<StephenSmally> *than
<MrChrisDruif> An other suggestion might be an AskUbuntu question, where people could vote on answers (like "What is the best lightweight app?")
<wxl> i still think the voting idea is best
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, but you have to do it for each type of application ...
<wxl> of course one can vote with edits on a wiki :D
<StephenSmally> And also a light app is an app written in a compiled language (C is the lighter)
<StephenSmally> that's the main reason why i'm (and michael) porting lsc to vala
<gilir> StephenSmally, you have to consider the memory, cpu and disk usage, depencencies ...
<jmarsden|work> Take the definition of what is small enough/light enough outside this meeting... :)
<gilir> there are many aspects to consider when you talk about lightweight applications
<StephenSmally> yep, but look at the dependecies is a good hint
<gilir> Yorvyk, anything to add ?
<wxl> i think maybe we should move on, eh? we've beat this idea to death in the past. i think the action will move it forward if it happens. i'd be happy to add to the wiki personally.
<StephenSmally> for example, compare goobox and asunder (cd ripper), goobox depends on Gnome, so out
<Yorvyk> I think what is wanted is
<gilir> ok thanks Yorvyk :)
<StephenSmally> Yorvyk: i am available to do some test
<gilir> #topic StephenSmally - Lsc in Vala and Elementary Os team collaboration
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  StephenSmally - Lsc in Vala and Elementary Os team collaboration
<StephenSmally> Well
 * gilir is curious about this one :)
<Yorvyk> StephenSmally: OK
<StephenSmally> I asked the elementary os team to "steal" some code from slingshot for lxlauncher
<StephenSmally> obviously is GPL, but anyway i wanted to ask the permission
<StephenSmally> they were very kind and fine
<StephenSmally> and they asked me if there is something we (lubuntu team and eos team) can collaborate on
<gilir> as long as the copyright attribution and the licence is fine, it should not be a problem
<gilir> but it's nice to ask :)
<StephenSmally> so we decided to write a common backend for lubuntu software center and elementary app center
<StephenSmally> so the next lsc version will be written in vala using PackageKit
<gilir> StephenSmally, sounds good :)
<StephenSmally> i also plan to modify the UI
<StephenSmally> (as somebody may has seen on facebook)
<gilir> StephenSmally, as long as it will not bring gnome depends, it's ok to work with them :)
<StephenSmally> no one, gilir
<StephenSmally> ;-)
<StephenSmally> here a mockup of what i think http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=200267
<gilir> StephenSmally, UI freeze should be in effect tomorow for 12.04
<StephenSmally> of course, i'm planning for precise+1
<gilir> StephenSmally, ok :)
<StephenSmally> i asked rafaellaguna for some hints
<StephenSmally> anyway, i think a collaboration with the two teams would be a good thing
<gilir> StephenSmally, you can also ask alexander, he worked on UI stuff also
<StephenSmally> anyway, only the core of the apps will be the same, the UI is absolutely under our control XD
<MrChrisDruif> Re on the previous topic: I was just throwing it out there ^_^
<StephenSmally> anyway, the team guys are very available, so if you want to ask something i think you can ask at elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net
<gilir> StephenSmally, sounds good, keep us informed about the progress :)
<StephenSmally> i'll absolutely do
<wxl> oh!
<wxl> sort of side note but StephenSmally have you seen the lsc crash bug on boot in precise?
<MrChrisDruif> I also saw a post on Lubuntu Official facebook page about LSC
<gilir> wxl, bug number ?
<wxl> one sec there's a few of them
<MrChrisDruif> StephenSmally; ^
<StephenSmally> yes?
<wxl> aw shoot
<wxl> they're darn private bugs
<MrChrisDruif> I thought the outset of LSC was creating a lightweight edition of USC? Now the "developer preview" was without icons at all?
<wxl> there's one public https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lubuntu-software-center/+bug/938399
<ubottu> Error: Bug #938399 is a duplicate of bug #934537, but it is private (https://launchpad.net/bugs/934537)
<wxl> lubuntu-software-center-build-db crashed with KeyError in /usr/sbin/hostname-software-center-build-db: 'ppc'
<wxl> seems to be ppc specific
<StephenSmally> MrChrisDruif: only the categories are without icons, we can add it if we want
<wxl> always on boot
<StephenSmally> wxl: gosh! got it, i'll fix it
<wxl> after updating, it goes away
<gilir> wxl, bug is not private anymore
<gilir> StephenSmally, anything to add ?
<StephenSmally> mmm, no, the bug should be fixed in an half hour
<wxl> thx StephenSmally :)
<StephenSmally> is there anybody on ppc right now?
<wxl> right now, no, but my machine is at home and can test in ~+6 hours
<StephenSmally> thank you
<wxl> phillw: have we ever got anywhere re: running ppc in qemu?
<phillw> wxl: I asked a few people, never got a reply :/ I will have another dig around to see what I can find.
<wxl> StephenSmally: i see it with the live system and the resulting install but after updating it is gone. so the next iso that comes out from your update, i can test
<StephenSmally> thanks
<StephenSmally> well, i'm done.
<wxl> thx
<gilir> wxl, to test, you have to remove lsc, and re-install it
<gilir> StephenSmally, ok, thanks :)
<wxl> gilir: i can try that too but i want to see how it works in situ ;)
<gilir> #topic other question ?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  other question ?
<phillw> o/
<david_j_r> o/
<gilir> phillw, ok
<phillw> not a question... the new draft for ubuntu.net is coming along well - heck, they've even got volunteer translators already. Well done!
<phillw> *lubuntu,net*
<phillw> it is at http://www.whiteboar.info/ for those interested.
 * gilir have to read the entire thread on the mailing list ...
<phillw> fortunately, it is being kept on one email subject now, instead of several :)
<gilir> yes, it's nice :)
<gilir> maybe a topic to discuss next meeting
<gilir> david_j_r, yes ?
<david_j_r> Did Leszek get for LXKeymap, and did "obkey" make it in for 12.04? (Multilingual computing something of interest to me.)
<david_j_r> *help for...
<david_j_r> Maybe that should have been question for dev part of agenda.
<gilir> david_j_r, not yet, some bugs still need to be fixed in the new version
<david_j_r> OK - thanks!
<gilir> nothing new since last week
<gilir> ok, no more question, time to end :)
<gilir> thanks everyone :)
<gilir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 22 21:05:00 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-20.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-22-20.05.html
<gilir> I'll update the wiki later tonight, unless someone want to do it now :)
 * MrChrisDruif only cares that it gets done, feel free gilir 
<phillw> gilir: thanks, as always, for chairing :)
<phillw> gilir: if you've other stuff to do (as you usually have) - I'll get it done.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-23
 * ogra_ twiddles thumbs ...
 * davidm looks about
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 23 15:02:04 2012 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<NCommander> Sorry, wasn't looking at the clock
<ogra_> ah
<mahmoh> hi
 * davidm waves at NCommander 
<NCommander> who's here
 * med_ waves
 * ogra_ sneezes
<rbasak> o/
<ahs3> \o
<NCommander> So
<ogra_> do we wnat need an agenda today ?
 * GrueMaster meh
<NCommander> Not really
<NCommander> [topic] Important Annoucement
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Important Annoucement
<NCommander> As part of an effort to keep ARM development more inline with the rest of the ubuntu community, the ARM team is intergrating directly into the platform team
<ppisati> :O
 * ppisati wasn't aware
<NCommander> ppisati: there was a reason I said it was the final meeting on the reminder
<ogra_> i would actually like to propose to still have arm meetings to coordinate arm work ... not as frequent, not with burndown etc but occasionally (i.e. once a month or every two or on whatever schedule) to get people doing the arm work in ubuntu to talk ...
<NCommander> [vote] Continue ARM meetings?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Continue ARM meetings?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ppisati> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ppisati
<GrueMaster> But I like the broken burndown chart.
<med_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from med_
<rbasak> +1
<ogra_> +1 (since i proposed it)
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<meetingology> +1 (since i proposed it) received from ogra_
<GrueMaster> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GrueMaster
<NCommander> ogra_: you broke the bot
<NCommander> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from NCommander
<ogra_> NCommander, how could i ? :)
<NCommander> 10:05:26 < meetingology> +1 (since i proposed it) received from ogra_
<davidm> Who is going to host the meetings?
 * NCommander looks at the person who proposed it
<rbasak> Good question
 * rbasak nominates davidm :-)
<davidm> ogra_, it just wants +1 0 or -1 on a line nothing else
<NCommander> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Continue ARM meetings?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<davidm> rbasak, not sure what I'll be doing going forward
<davidm> So it needs to be someone else
<ogra_> davidm, nah, we use the comment feature in every rmb meeting to comment on people we vorte for
 * ogra_ will do it then, we can rotate it or so 
<NCommander> So we'll continue the meetings in some form, not sure how often or when
<NCommander> [action] ogra to determine new meeting schedule
<meetingology> ACTION: ogra to determine new meeting schedule
<ogra_> infinity, proposal was to still have arm coordination meetings at a looser schedule and with less agenda
<infinity> I'm not convinced we need meetings for the sake of meetings.
 * NCommander proposes we have a meeting to discuss meetings
<NCommander> >:-)
<ogra_> infinity, no,. for the sake of communitcation of people working on arm stuff
<ogra_> it shouldnt be strict and optional anyway
<rbasak> We have to be careful with a loose schedule though
<rbasak> The risk is that it stops happening
<infinity> ogra_: Well, the idea here is that people should instead be communicating about "kernel stuff" or "desktop stuff" (etc).  We don't have "amd64 meetings".
<ogra_> just to give an opportunity to communicate on arm specific tasks
<ogra_> hmm, true indeed
<ogra_> nor do we have ppc ones
<infinity> ie: If you have an arm kernel issue, being it up in the kernel-team meeting.
<infinity> s/being/bring/
<NCommander> Here's the official meeting calendar
<NCommander> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
<NCommander> Server team is 16:00 UTC on Tuesdays
<ogra_> infinity, though there was a vote before you joined, and that looked like there might still be demand
<NCommander> ]Kernel is 17:00 UTC on Tuesday
<ogra_> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<rbasak> We don't need "amd64 meetings" because everyone is de-facto amd64. We need arm meetings because most people are still developing against non-arm, IMHO.
 * ogra_ would like to hear from the people that +1'ed if they could get along with that 
<infinity> I propose a discussion period before nostalgia-based voting biases kick in. ;)
<ppisati> i definitely can, since i'll be there anyway :)
<infinity> rbasak: Right, but that's what we're trying to change.
<infinity> rbasak: And it won't change if we keep having ARM stuff in separate meetings.
<ogra_> rbasak, infinity is right here
<victorp> you could always have a rotating chair
<ogra_> victorp, right, i would just have kicked it off
<ogra_> with chair nominations at the end of every meeting
<rbasak> infinity: we're not in a position to change it, IMHO, because it's based on what hardware engineers are using on their own machines. Until ARM/Intel reach a 50/50 split on that, ARM will be the minority and those working on it need to have a focus
<infinity> rbasak: Yeah, that's kinda the attitude we're trying to kill here.  That's my point. :)
<infinity> rbasak: People should care about it, even if it's not their laptop's arch.
<victorp> rbasak, unless you count their phone
<infinity> rbasak: And if it's not discussed in open channels and "normal" teams, that won't happen.
<rbasak> I'm sure they do care about it
 * ogra_ uses arm 24/7 on his lappie :)
<victorp> I would suggest that keeping this meeting going forward for at least until the next cycle
 * NCommander has an arm (and two legs)
<victorp> and then re-review it at uds?
<rbasak> I'm not saying that we shouldn't integrate with "normal" teams. I'm saying that ARM-specific issues that come up from there should be collaborated on in once place.
<rbasak> *one place
<rbasak> victorp: +1
<infinity> rbasak: Perhaps.  Generally, kernel people don't attend desktop meetings for a reason, though. :)
<infinity> (And most of us hate duplicated work/meetings)
<victorp> infinity, doesnt mean we cant do both
<infinity> But yeah, keeping the status quo for a little longer while we integrate won't kill us.
<ogra_> infinity, prob here is that we dont have an arm person in every team atm
<ogra_> else i would fully agree
<victorp> for certification we have a meeting to cover cert and then we have a person attending the kernel meeting to raise issues there too
<ogra_> but there is likely arm work that has to be done cross team atm
<infinity> ogra_: It's not (ultimately) about having "arm people" on every team, but having every team actually work on ARM.
<victorp> infinity, isnt a bit like QA
<GrueMaster> infinity: No one is forcing you to attend either.
<ogra_> how would they do that without HW or knowledge about the HW
<victorp> everyone does its own qa - there is still a qa meeting to discuss common things?
<ogra_> GrueMaster, ++
<NCommander> We did have a PowerPC for a long time.
<infinity> The HW is almost never necessary, except for kernel and installer hacking.
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> wow
<NCommander> grammar fail
<victorp> GrueMaster, that is the attitude  - lol
<infinity> Anyhow.
<infinity> I'll withdraw my objections for now.  But I'm working on integration here in the long run.
<ogra_> as i said before, optional, less frequent
<NCommander> PowerPC had a dedicated channel that people could go for porting help. We have #ubuntu-arm for much the same purpose
<ogra_> once a month should suffice surely
<victorp> infinity, can you take an action to setup a discussion at UDS around this?
<victorp> since you do have valid points - if I take the action it will never happen
<victorp> :(
<infinity> victorp: Will do.
<infinity> victorp: Rick's already tasked me informally with more or less the same thing. :P
<NCommander> [action] infinity to discuss ARM meeting existance at UDS
<meetingology> ACTION: infinity to discuss ARM meeting existance at UDS
<victorp> great minds and all that
<infinity> (Though less about meetings, and more about deeper integration)
<NCommander> integration can largely be solved with large amounts of beer and duct tape
<SeaJay> I'm for continuing the meetings but not so much for status quo but rather to help with the transition to the new org and build cross team cooperation.
<infinity> To be fair, cross-team cooperation already exists, ARM's just not seen it as much, because we've been in our own weird bubble.
<ogra_> ++
<infinity> Scatter us to the winds, and we might see how the rest of the distro works. ;)
<SeaJay> Yeh, cooperation wasn't the right word.
<ogra_> they will forward their probs to linaro then :P
<ogra_> instead of us
<infinity> Anyhow.  Moving on.  I'll make sure this all gets solid discussion at UDS.
<infinity> And I'll bring blunt objects.
<infinity> Or wiffle bats.
<ogra_> k, so should i still schedule it in a month from now ?
<med_> yes
<ogra_> ok
 * rbasak votes two weeks
<ogra_> (will only be 3 or 4 meetings until UDS anyway on that schedule)
<infinity> ogra_: You could even register a foundations-uds-q-arm-integration (or whatever the right format is) blueprint, and assign it to me. ;)
<SeaJay> Yeh, I'd like more frequently than monthly for now myself.
<davidm> IS there any action items from last week that should be reviewed before just dropping the old agenda?
<rbasak> The point being that we don't know how it'll go. If there's persistently little to discuss, we could make it less frequent then, but going in the other direction involves a long wait.
<ogra_> infinity, feel free to create it :)
<infinity> ogra_: I was hoping I could trick you into being my personal assistant.  I'll set it up.
<ogra_> NCommander, any actions from last week ?
 * NCommander checks
<ogra_> infinity, lol, then you have to say so !
<ogra_> just ask and you will be served :P
<NCommander> [topic] rsalveti to follow with riku to see if chromium will get fixed
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: rsalveti to follow with riku to see if chromium will get fixed
<ogra_> (we have to talk about the amount of salary you have to transfer indeed )
<infinity> micahg: What's the latest on chromium?
<ogra_> it built !
<NCommander> does it run?
 * ogra_ got it with a dist-upgrade today
<ogra_> didnt try
<NCommander> ogra_: best try :-).
<ogra_> just saw the package passing by
<infinity> Wait, it built?
<ogra_> not now
<NCommander> I remember openoffice built, but didn't run
<infinity> No, chromium's still broken on armhf.
<ogra_> will do when i dont actually use this machine :)
<ogra_> oh, crap i run el here
<ogra_> but even that is a novum
<infinity> Some multiarch annoyance.
<ogra_> it didnt buold on any arm for years
<infinity> I'll work with micahg to see if we can resolve that.
<ogra_> i'll test after the meeting if it actually runs on my tegra
 * ogra_ has all ram used up atm
<infinity> janimo`: Oh hai.
<ogra_> heh
<janimo`> I forgot what the itme was
<janimo`> and noone pinged me!
<janimo`> and hi :)
<ogra_> we just assumed your mic was broken
<janimo`> funny guy
 * GrueMaster hasn't seen an itme in a while.
<ogra_> oh, wait that was the other meeting :P
<infinity> NCommander: Was there anything else from last meeting?
<janimo`> GrueMaster, did you say 'itme?
<NCommander> [topic] rsalveti to follow with koen at ELC to see if we'll get armhf drivers for sgx (omap3)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: rsalveti to follow with koen at ELC to see if we'll get armhf drivers for sgx (omap3)
<janimo`> I would if I were near you
<ppisati> NCommander: how about omap4?
<ogra_> ppisati, in the works
<rsalveti> he'll be publishing the drivers in the following weeks
<ppisati> ok
<rsalveti> hope still in time for the release
<rsalveti> with a ffe
<ogra_> waiting for ndecs team
<infinity> rsalveti: Given that armel is unsupported, and armhf doesn't have the driver, the FFe will be a no-brainer.
<ogra_> yeah
<infinity> rsalveti: But have them talk to me about it when it's time.
<rsalveti> FFe to include the driver for armhf
<infinity> Yeah, like I said, no-brainer.
<infinity> Hardware enablement FFes are more closely tied to kernel freeze, which is quite a way out.
<infinity> At least, IMO.
<rsalveti> that's fine then :_)
<rsalveti> :-)
<janimo`> is there an action item to ping nvidia about tegra-armhf or it happens whenever they get to it?
<ogra_> good question
<rsalveti> I talked with a few nvidia folks at elc
<janimo`> so ac100 is not the only armel image
<infinity> A few different people talked to nvidia engineers at Connect.
<infinity> And ELC, apparently. :P
<rsalveti> they said the have the armhf driver internally
<infinity> And yeah, that.
<rsalveti> guess we just need to ping the folks to make it available for us
<infinity> The Engineers are building them, the release managers haven't let them be set free yet.
<ogra_> then they should just open the gates
<infinity> Red tape ahoy.
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> well, with the current xorg ABI i get green bg on notification bubbles and the panel fonts look like rainbows
<janimo`> ACTION : look for tegra-armhf drivers on thepiratebay.org
<ogra_> camnt be worse i guess
<ogra_> oh, and firefox CSS is acting up too
<ogra_> o it would be good to have something new for release
<janimo`> well the driver itself is still buggy but at least it should not hold up armhf images taking over
<ogra_> yeah
<rsalveti> and for imx53 we're still waiting feedback from freescale
<ogra_> but with xorg updates it got a lot more buggy over the last weeks
<rsalveti> seems we can have the drivers, but we can't distribute them
<rsalveti> so, useless :-)
<ogra_> so i dont even know if it makes sense to keep artmel around for ac100
<ogra_> *armel
<janimo`> rsalveti, was that not the case even before with mx53?
<infinity> rsalveti: Yeah, I'd love to be able to, but such is life. :/
<rsalveti> janimo`: yeah
<ogra_> even with imx51 (babbage) we had that
<GrueMaster> rsalveti: Anyone working on the usb issue with the imx53 Start-R rev?
<rsalveti> but anmar is working hard at linaro to make freescale to release a distributable driver
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: not atm, unfortunately
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: have the bug?
<infinity> rsalveti: I suppose if someone has some spare time they wanted to waste, they could design an installer package that required the user to first download the tarball from Freescale.
<rsalveti> the team is focused on imx6
<GrueMaster> I'll file a bug later today.  Everytime I got ready to file one before, I was told to wait as a new kernel was coming.
<rsalveti> infinity: that would probably work, just need someone with some spare time to do the magic script
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: please open it and let me know about the bug number
<rsalveti> will forward it to the LT
<infinity> rsalveti: Yeah, probably not worth the time, but if someone's feeling like a keener on private/community time.
<rsalveti> yeah
<ogra_> oh, btw is anyone sending out a more official announcement that the arm dem wont exist anymore ... or is NCommander's note that this was the final meeting enough ?
<ogra_> s/dem/team/
 * ogra_ glares at his fingers
<NCommander> Sorry, power interruption
<NCommander> cable model takes a good five minutes to powercycle
<NCommander> *modem
<NCommander> ogra_: I can drop a second email to ubuntu-armel announcing the former disillusion of the team.
<infinity> ogra_: I think we'll want to wait a week or three until we have a better idea of the state of things.
<NCommander> the LP group though shoul dstill be subscribed so ARM related bugs can be easily felt
<NCommander> infinity: fair enough
<ogra_> infinity, yeah, sounds sane
<infinity> I'd like to send something more formal to ubuntu-announce in a while, but I want to make sure it's carefully worded to be positive, rather than panic-inducing.
<GrueMaster> NCommander: Actually, tags are the preferred method for bugs.
<ogra_> infinity, ++
<ogra_> and also blessed by managers7teamleads
<infinity> ogra_: Yeahp.
<infinity> ogra_: I've been talking with Rick and Steve about what this all "means" for platform/Ubuntu, so I might take an action item here to draft up a formal announcement and get it reviewed and rubber-stamped.
<ogra_> k
<infinity> But, like I said, I think it should wait a couple weeks.
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> I have one final announcement
<rsalveti> having a group can still be useful as we have people that only cares about arm atm
<rsalveti> like the folks working with linaro
<rsalveti> so easier to parse the bugs and such, but guess that a tag would also be useful
<infinity> rsalveti: The LP group and ubuntu-arm channel are still valuable, IMO.
<ogra_> rsalveti, the ubuntu-arm LP team will still exist
<rsalveti> great then
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra_> we already share it across different teams
<ogra_> (which made our burndown chart look funny in the past)
 * ogra_ has nothing anymore
<NCommander> good news everyone
<NCommander> armadaxp netboot images are up
<infinity> NCommander: \o/
<mahmoh> yay
<rbasak> \o/
<ogra_> great
<cmagina> woot
<ogra_> when will we see alternates ?
<mahmoh> it even should reboot on its own now too!
<NCommander> ogra_: wasn't planning on buildin gthem
<NCommander> Kinda pointless when the bootloader can't load from USB
<ogra_> oh, i thought you did
<mahmoh> it might be able to btw
<NCommander> I was waiting until we got a fixed bootloader from Marvell
<NCommander> mahmoh: did that get magically fixed cause I couldn't get it to work
<ogra_> ah, indeed
<mahmoh> if you tried a powered usb device then no
<GrueMaster> mahmoh: We tried a usb stick at the rally.
<NCommander> and a SD card too
<mahmoh> sd didn't work?!
<GrueMaster> If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
<mahmoh> heh
<NCommander> Anyway
<NCommander> I think its time to close
<mahmoh> well reboot now works and there's a bug for unmount hanging
<NCommander> One final annoucement
<GrueMaster> At any rate, we have 12 minutes left, and I have no idea where in the agenda we are anymore.
<NCommander> I would just like to say
<NCommander> So long, and thanks for all the fish
<ogra_> GrueMaster, which agenda ?
<NCommander> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 23 15:49:39 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-23-15.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-23-15.02.html
<janimo`> NCommander, that was abrupt
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> not even a countdown
<NCommander> janimo`: figured for once to change it :-P
<janimo`> also to nitpick, thanks for all the fish is not an announcement :D
<mahmoh> dramatic exit ...
<infinity> mahmoh: The umount thing is almost certainly not arch-specific.
<mahmoh> infinity: has anyone else seen it?
<ogra_> did you look on LP ?
<mahmoh> yes (not well evidently)
<infinity> mahmoh: I haven't seen the particular bug, but please sort out which script is hanging/pausing/whatever and file a bug.
<mahmoh> infinity: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/939240
<ubottu> Error: launchpad bug 939240 not found
<mahmoh> bug 939240
<infinity> mahmoh: No matter how many ways you type it, it still doesn't exist. ;)
<infinity> (And this should go to another channel.  I suggest #ubuntu-devel)
<mahmoh> it's private for some reason, I should undo that
<mahmoh> ack
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-24
<bulll> FF ?DCC SEND âff???f??????????????â 0 0 0
<bulll> ??ï¿½DCC SEND &quot;ff???f?Ã°ÂâÂ¹Ã°ÂâÂ°Ã°ÂâÂ·Ã°ÂâÂ³Ã°ÂâÂ¶Ã°ÂâÂ³Ã°ÂâÂºÃ°ÂâÂ¼Ã°ÂâÂ·Ã°ÂâÂ®Ã°ÂâÂ¼Ã°Âââ¬Ã°ÂâÂº&quot; 0 0 0
 * skaet waves
<apw> o/
<mdeslaur> \o
<skaet> its getting time....
<ScottK> \o
 * pitti waves towards the world
<skaet> hi apw,  got leann's message.   :)
<apw> skaet, yo
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Feb 24 16:00:15 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * ScottK looks over and watches Riddell desperately scribble out his release meeting input.
 * stgraber waves
<skaet>  [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Please remember to .. when you're done, and o/ if you want us to pause. :)
<skaet> Agenda can be found:
<skaet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-02-24
<skaet>  Individual team status links will be added to it from:
<skaet>  #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/thread.html
<skaet> .
<skaet>  Schedule is at:
<skaet>  #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<skaet>  #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/
<skaet>  .
<skaet>  Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<skaet>  #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<pitti> still roundtable today, or free-form questions?
<skaet> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, should be assigned to specific teams, so they can be found.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming Dates:
<skaet> â¢ 2012/02/02 - Beta 1
<skaet> .
<skaet> Now in BetaFreeze ( as well as UserInterfaceFreeze, FeatureFreeze).  Thank you to those who got their fixes in before the Freeze.  :)
<arosales> Hello
<skaet> .
<skaet> Thank you from release team to stgraber for getting queuebot working on the unapproved queue last night - makes things much easier to keep on top of.  :)
<skaet> .
<skaet> CD images are oversized,  so figuring out options to cut down the size of some packages/etc. would be appreciated.
<skaet> .
<skaet> If time permits (ie. we end less than an hour), there will be a discussion at the end on some restructuring of this meeting,   possibly using an open forum for Q&A rather than explicit round table.   But for today again, we'll continue with round table.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> pitti,  still round table today.    want the discussion to happen first.
<pitti> o/
<skaet> before we switch
<skaet> go pitti.
<pitti> wrt CD size, we just got a new ffox/tbird which should save ~ 2 or 2.5 MB each
<pitti> skaet: will that be a topic of its own?
<pitti> if so, I'll just wait
<skaet> yes
<pitti> ack, ..
<skaet> ok, on to round table, and then if we don't figure it out during round table,  image pruning topic at end.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<mlegris> [link]https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000886.html
<mlegris> no big updated besides checkbox changing to Qt
<mlegris> any questions?
<Riddell> mlegris: ooh where can I test that?
<mlegris> Riddell: yes, you can now :)
 * skaet points Riddell to mletgis's email...
<Riddell> got it :)
<skaet> [Topic] QA team update -  jibel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel
 * Riddell already got nessita to fix a problem in ubuntuone Qt :)
<jibel> hi
<jibel> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000885.html
<jibel> upgrade bug 940252 is caused by a very bad probe effect of the code that capture debconf prompt
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 940252 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "lucid -> precise main all upgrade: system upgrades but upgraded system is still lucid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/940252
<nessita> Riddell: want me to fix something else? :-D
 * nessita fixes
<pitti> jibel: oh, curious
<jibel> it is disabled for the moment and in return there a new bug with kde-runtime that fails to upgrade from lucid
<jibel> bug 940396
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 940396 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "lucid -> precise main all failed to upgrade: dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of kde-runtime" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/940396
<jibel> ..
<skaet> jibel,  looks like there will be some things to dig into indeed.   Thanks for flagging them now.
 * skaet contemplates foundation team will be busy for next couple of days...
<Riddell> jibel: hmm interesting.  I did my smoke test on oneiric upgrade and that was fine, guess I'll need to do lucid now
<skaet> Thanks jibel (and mlegris).  :)
<skaet> [Topic] Security team update - mdeslaur
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team update - mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000872.html
<mdeslaur> apparmor upload is imminent
<mdeslaur> nothing further
<mdeslaur> any questions?
<mdeslaur> ..
<skaet> thanks mdeslaur.
<skaet> apw,    will next kernel after beta 1 have the upstream commit security requests?
 * apw doesn't know off the top of his head, will look
<skaet> thanks
<skaet> [Topic] Kernel team update -apw
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team update -apw
<apw> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000874.html
<apw>  
<apw> There has been a new development in the RC6 patch we applied.  An
<apw> additional fix has been proposed from upstream which has been confirmed to
<apw> resolve the graphics corruption issues seen on some Samsung model's when
<apw> RC6 is enabled by default.  We're still waiting on feedback if it also
<apw> resolves the hard shutdown issues seen on ASUS UX31E's.  We do consider
<apw> these critical issues to fix before release and believe it does warrant a
<apw> Beta Freeze exception.  This change is key to our RC6 testing as we are
<apw> unable to request the valid upstream combinations without it.  As such,
<apw> we have requested and received approval from the release team to upload.
<apw> The upload was done about 10 minutes ago, we will be monitoring.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<apw> skaet, on the apparmor patches, i don't think we have them yet so depend when they drop ..
<ScottK> Kernel is accepted and building now.
<skaet> Thanks apw.
<arosales> apw:  Is the RC6 bug, 937378?
<arosales> looks to be so
<apw> that looks to be the regression yes ...
<apw> still waiting on testing there by the looks of it ..
<arosales> apw, it looks like the other one mentioned on the wiki is 935965. Any other feeback? Testers reporting good power savings? Seems like it would be pretty advantageous, thanks for adding it :-)
<apw> yes those who it works for are seeing 10's of percent improvement
<arosales> good to hear, makes my battery happy :-)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - stgraber
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team Q&A - stgraber
 * stgraber waves
<Riddell> I accepted the linux uploaded a little while ago
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000878.html
<stgraber> questions?
<Riddell> stgraber: nothing else for beta?
<stgraber> (I added a few comments to bug 926859 trying to explain why using compiz with llvmpipe by default is a bad idea)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 926859 in unity "llvmpipe software rendering needs blacklisting in unity-support-test" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/926859
<stgraber> Riddell: installer fixes ;)
<ScottK> Will the updated kernel also need a DI upload?
<stgraber> but besides that, no, I think we're pretty much done with features now that whoopsie is in
<stgraber> ScottK: AFAICS there wasn't an ABI bump, so no, unless we care about the RC6 fix in the netinstall images
 * ScottK guesses we don't.
<skaet> Riddell,  yeah see jibel's QA email...  :)
<stgraber> I assumed that too, so there shouldn't be a d-i rebuilt for beta-1 (I refreshed it yesterday already)
<stgraber> unless something else breaks obviously...
<skaet> thanks stgraber good to know.
<stgraber> ..
<Riddell> a bug free ubiquity is nice for a beta
<skaet> dbarth,  can you comment on the compiz issues in your section...
<stgraber> Riddell: not sure I can promise that ;)
 * skaet figures he wants to look up the details ;)
<stgraber> but all beta1 targeted installer bugs should be fixed early next week and probably a bunch more
<skaet> Thanks stgraber for getting the queuebot working on the unapproved queue.   MUCH APPRECIATED!.  :)
<stgraber> ..
<stgraber> skaet: np, was surprisingly easy to rewrite ;) I think I spent more time trying to find the existing code than rewriting it from scratch ;)
<Daviey> stgraber: you re-wrote it from scratch?!
<skaet> stgraber,  awsome.   Lets make sure its checked in and accessible so we don't go through this exercise again.  :)
<stgraber> skaet: it also allows for monitoring of other queues like New if that's something useful for #ubuntu-release
<stgraber> Daviey: yeah ... well, current version is < 60 lines of code, so wasn't exactly difficult ;)
<stgraber> ..
<skaet> stgraber,  yes,  that would be.   Lets talk about it in the #ubuntu-release channel after the meeting.
 * skaet wonders if it can say who accepted the unapproved too... ?  but later.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - arosales
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - arosales
<arosales> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000887.html
<arosales> Apologies for the late post once again. We'll get our game together soon.
<arosales> Not a lot of new items to report on this week. OpenStack keystone-lite will replace keystone in the next week.
<arosales> Any questions?
<Riddell> arosales: uploads in unapproved?
<Riddell> swift?
<Riddell> nova?  python-novaclient?
<arosales> Daviey: any updates on swift ^
<Daviey> Hey
<Riddell> there are, and we need to be told why they're important for beta
<Daviey> Riddell: What part of it?
<Daviey> (can you expand the question)
<Riddell> Daviey: we'll do this in #u-release
<pitti> they don't link to any RC bugs (or other bugs)
<pitti> so need a separate explanation
<Daviey> Riddell: right... So.. for the last few releases it's been something which has been followed.
<Daviey> We track usptream to completition, where they track our dev cycle.
<Daviey> It has a good functional and unit test suite.
<Daviey> If this is a process we should re-visit, then we can have that as a seperate discussion
<Riddell> Daviey: all fine, what's the reason to upload during beta freeze?
<Daviey> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20OpenStack%20Testing/ , is there to add confidence
<skaet> arosales,  is bug 924739 any ETA when this is likely to land?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924739 in squid3 (Ubuntu Precise) "after upgrade from oneiric to precise, previous squid config unused, cannot be used when relocated" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924739
<Daviey> Riddell: In retrospect, it could probably have been held back.. However, i'd quite like it to land in the beta.
 * skaet wondering if in time for beta or if this is release note material?
<arosales> skaet: I need to check on an ETA with Adam, but the issue has been identified as far as the config.
<Riddell> ok, a cheeky late upload, you can buy me and skaet and pitti beers to get it through
<skaet> thanks arosales. :)
<arosales> skaet: I'll follow up with you later today
<pitti> arosales, Daviey: so you shall have it, accepted
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team?   Q&A - ogra_
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team?   Q&A - ogra_
<Daviey> pitti: thanks :)
<ogra_> sooo ...
<ogra_> let me shock you guys a bit :)
<arosales> pitti: Riddell: skaet: thanks :-)
<ogra_> there was no mail for ubuntu-arm ... since there is no ubuntu-arm anymore ...
<ScottK> Where did it go?
<ogra_> from monday on it is expected that all platform teams care for their arm bits themselves
<ogra_> so i would like to ask Daviey to report for arm server issues, stgraber for arm foundation issues, pitti for arm desktop etc ...
<ogra_> the team itself got spread across platform
<pitti> yes, makes sense
 * skaet nods
<ogra_> and indeed if you have arm issues, feel free to contact people from the former arm team during the transition time
<pitti> FWIW, we already tracked arm* stuff the same like x86 in stable+1 and other tracking, but of course so far we relied on the arm team to sort out the difficult failurres
<ogra_> theoretically every team was supposed to have an arm person during the transition ,... desktop somehow didnt get one though
<ogra_> right
<stgraber> oh, and I'd like to welcome ogra_ and infinity in the Foundations team (starting on Monday)!
<ogra_> the expectation is that arm doesnt get treated differently from x86 or amd64 from now on
<ogra_> heh, yeah, adam and i are in foundations now ... still caring for arm stuff ... but in the place where it should be cared for (platform)
<ogra_> not in some elite team or so :)
<ogra_> ..
 * skaet is glad to see ogra_ and infinity in foundations team too.  :)
<Daviey> I'd rather see them in server :)
<skaet> Thanks ogra_!
<ogra_> Daviey, ask victorp, probably he can help here ;)
<Riddell> ogra_: so desktop should be hiring someone?
<pitti> well, we don't hire an amd64 person
<ogra_> right
<pitti> I guess we just need to get some arm hardware
<Riddell> pitti: ok but do we have the hardware and skills needed?
<pitti> hardware, no
<ogra_> yeah, your manager should approve a panda or so
<Riddell> pitti: I do, but I need time and help to set it up
<victorp> Daviey we could move you to foudations as a swap :)
<pitti> skills> I expect most of the difficult stuff (compiler, linux) to not live in desktop anyway
<ogra_> victorp, lol
<pitti> so far any arm issue I looked at was relatively easy
<ogra_> if its not LibO or mono, thats true
<Riddell> pitti: graphics is fiddly for arm, anything using gl
<ogra_> there are a bunch of nasty packages
<ogra_> ..
<Riddell> and of course qt and the qreal fun
<pitti> it took me two days to fix a postgresql bug, but I guess in cases like theses we can still knock on infinity's or janimo's door and ask kindly
<ScottK> Riddell: Those are at least easy (if tiring)
<ogra_> right
<pitti> Riddell: true that
<Riddell> ScottK: you can also rent out your arm machines to desktop for a suitably large fee
<ogra_> the arm team isnt gone, we are just in other places
<ScottK> Once I get a new router for that network segment.  Sure.
<Daviey> ScottK: Talking of which... what happend to those MOTU machines?
<Daviey> ScottK: you had 2 x ARM machines for MOTU use?
<Riddell> ScottK: new issues aren't so easy, I couldn't work out a fix for compiz
<Daviey> \o/
<ScottK> Daviey: See my previous comment about dead router.
<Riddell> ScottK: get jason to expense it
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro team Q&A - fabo
<Riddell> (but he's on holiday for the next week i think)
<ScottK> Also they aren't hardware Ubuntu supports, so I have to rework them to a more modern release.  Probably debian testing armhf.
<fabo_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000889.html
<ScottK> Riddell: It's not the cost it's the time to drive to the store.
<fabo_> in addition, we want to update live-build (as discussed with skaet)
<fabo_> after beta1 might be a good timing
<skaet> stgraber, pitti, ScottK, Riddell, ^ any thoughts about timing/concerns?
<fabo_> Thanks to Ubuntu ARM team and see you in your new assignment :)
<fabo_> ..
<skaet> thanks fabo_ :)
<ScottK> I'd suggest if it's ready now, sooner is better than later.
<pitti> skaet: linaro builds shouldn't affect us?
<stgraber> sorry I need a second, the linaro e-mail got on the list very late so haven't had a chance to read pre-meeting
<skaet> pitti, thought there might be common code,  but we can carry on the discussion in #ubuntu-release after meeting.
<stgraber> fabo_: would like to see some details on what's in that update live-build and how it'll impact Ubuntu, though #ubuntu-release is fine for that
<fabo_> stgraber: ok, np.
<skaet> fabo_,  any thoughts on when the smaller compiz patch (OpenGL ES2.0) will be available for review?
<fabo_> skaet: no ideas right now, but asap. it's a high prio
<skaet> fabo_,  fair 'nuf.  Thanks.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
<pitti> report at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000880.html
<pitti> st landed new firefox/tbird with an estimated 5 MB saving of CD space, leaving some 3 or 4 to be taken off
<pitti> option 1 (and my preferred one) is to drop python3 again by switching lsb-release back to python2; lsb-release is currently the only package using python3 on the CD, so we'd carry those 4.5 MBs just for this
<pitti> the default option is as always to kick off yet another langpack; we only have Spanish, Portugese, and Chinese left to sacrifice now, though
<pitti> ..
<pitti> ScottK, doko, stgraber: any opinion on python3?
<ogra_> skaet, i'll still take care for that patch on teh plkatform side ... no worries, i'll keep you updated
<ogra_> ..
<Riddell> pitti: any reason not to drop python3?
 * skaet thanks ogra_ :)
<ScottK> pitti: Removing it would make barry very sad.
<pitti> I bet
<ScottK> Other than that, I think it's fine.
<pitti> but carrying it for a 20 line lsb-release script seems a bit heavy
 * ScottK agrees.
<doko> pitti: apport still not using python3? lame ...
<pitti> doko: -ENOLAUNCHPADLIB
<pitti> at least from next cycle on we'll have bigger image sizes
<stgraber> I tend to agree carrying a full language for just a 20 lines script sounds like a waste of space, it's sad not more stuff are using python3 yet though
<ScottK> Dropping it would help all the images, right?
<pitti> yes
<doko> pitti: please check with barry, I'm fine with it
<pitti> ack
<skaet> Thanks pitti.   sounds like we have a decision.
 * skaet won't bring it up at end now.... ;)
<pitti> I'll prepare the upload after barry acks
<skaet> any other questions for desktop before moving on? ...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
<skaet> hmm... don't see dbarth in the channel...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Unity Services and Settings Team  Q&A - Cimi
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Unity Services and Settings Team  Q&A - Cimi
<Cimi> hello!
<Cimi> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000884.html
<Cimi> Yet another intense week for the team :-)
<Cimi> as you can see, lots of bugs fixed
<Cimi> thanks to Coverity as well, nice work from the QA team and our engineer
<Cimi> we were able to spot new bugs and improve the quality of our libraries
<Cimi> on the FFe/UIFes
<Cimi> I've updated the list with the remaining links
<Cimi> I'd like to hear your feedback on this side, if there's any
<Cimi> especially on the the two requests of the GMenuModel in Hud, and extended support for XUL apps
<Cimi> we're not sure they should be considered as bugfixes or exceptions
<Cimi> on the UIFe, I think there shouldn't be problems for the 1st one, the 2nd I was currently working on
<Cimi> I'll try to make the change really subtle (and not as in the bugreport community contribution)
<Cimi> I'm open to all your requests
<Cimi> ..
<skaet> pitti, any concerns from desktop team on the FFes/UIFes  ?
<pitti> I haven't actually seen a lot from DX?
<pitti> we got two metric tons from online services
<pitti> (or I don't remember any more)
<Riddell> pitti: "tonnes" :)
<skaet> heh,  yeah its that time in the release... memory stack overflow for all.
<skaet> Cimi,  thanks for the details.   Will follow up after meeting.
<Cimi> cool
<Cimi> I think I'm done then, all silent means all good :-)
<skaet> Thanks to the team for all the bug fixes.  :)
<Cimi> our pleasure and our job :)
<skaet> yup silence is good. :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000888.html
<Riddell> still more politics than coding but kubuntu-active might appear any time now
<Riddell> ..
<skaet> Thanks Riddell.
 * skaet figures that Riddell gets to teach the publishers about it,  if its ready for B1 - so that issue will get handled ;)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-February/000875.html
<stgraber> I think we're in pretty good shape for beta-1 now and don't expect much to change for this cycle
<skaet> :)
 * skaet glad to hear that
<stgraber> we'll probably get more bugfix releases of epoptes and LTSP but both projects are in feature freeze too
<stgraber> ..
<skaet> Thanks stgraber.:)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
 * skaet sees madnick in the channel.... 
<skaet> any other xubuntu folk around?
<skaet> not seeing ubuntu studio folk either,  and lubuntu said they'll not make it.
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
 * ScottK knows there's a GHC6 transition going on.
<skaet> thanks ScottK.
<skaet> just a reminder to all,  if an unseeded universe package/fix is ready - please highlight that on #ubuntu-release channel, so we can let it through during the beta freeze.
<ScottK> I'm been pushing them through as I see them.
<ScottK> I'm / I've
<skaet> thanks ScottK.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments,  questions?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business, comments,  questions?
<pitti> me too, yes
<ScottK> I'm guessing that what's in queue for the powerpc builders already will have them busy most of the weekend.  There's LO and two openjdk uploads that aren't even started yet.  Particularly since it's gcc and a kernel build in progress now.
<pitti> skaet: meeting format/
<skaet> pitti,  ok - we're over the hour, but yes..  :)
<Riddell> I'd rather have an open meeting
<skaet> Proposal on the table is to change the format of this meeting
<Riddell> it would encourage me to send the e-mail earlier
<skaet> to an open meeting,  rather than a round table.
<Riddell> and to read over other e-mails if skaet pinged 30 mins before the meeting :)
<pitti> so we'll throw in questions instead of waiting for our turn
<skaet> For this to work,  e-mails will need to be in 2 hours before the meeting.
<ScottK> Sending the mails doesn't seem to have shortened the meeting as it is.
<pitti> yes, the idea was to read the mails before theh meeting and then have questions ready
<pitti> well, it used to be 1.5 hours
<Riddell> the current format is too much waiting for no good reason
<pitti> but I guess many people do other stuff at the side, which probably slows it down as a whole
 * pitti is guilty of that himself
<skaet> If folks can get their emails in we can try the open format after the initial annonce.
<ScottK> Could we just have a discussion on the mail list and do away with the meeting?
<Riddell> nah meeting is useful
<skaet> ScottK,  its efficient for some issues to get resolved to have this meeting.
<highvoltage> oops, I missed the Edubuntu part (I guess that's a problem with the waiting, you get distracted :) )
<Riddell> but it can be short without all the waiting
<Riddell> highvoltage++
<ScottK> OK.  Maybe people should ask their questions on the list as much as possible too.
<pitti> yes, I think IRC has better turnarounds
<skaet> ScottK ++
<ScottK> pitti: Sure, but let's keep the meeting to the stuff that really needs to be real time.
<pitti> but we could certainly do 30 intense minutes (or less in some meetings which aren't right before a beta) instead of the waiting round
<Riddell> skaet: can you send a reminder to send e-mails and another one 30 mins before meeting to read over them?
<pitti> ScottK: right, and we did resolve questions on the ML before, too (I agree, when possible that makes sense)
<skaet> Riddell,   its early in the morning for me,  rather this just be a self reminding cron job for folks if they need reminders.
 * arosales will work on getting Server team update in a timely manner
<skaet> all in favor of having emails in 2 hours before,  and going to open forum Q&A session,  please vote  +1,  all wanting to keep with current round table -1 please.....  anyone know the runes?
 * skaet figures there's a way to trigger the vote and get those quiet ones to weigh in..
<Riddell> skaet: cron is fine :)
<pitti> #vote
 * skaet thanks pitti
<Riddell> +1
<stgraber> skaet: #vote subject of the vote
<pitti> only skaet can issue it
 * Riddell out
<skaet> #vote change meeting to open Q&A rather than round table.
<meetingology> Please vote on: change meeting to open Q&A rather than round table.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<pitti> Riddell: hm, I just read them as they come in
<pitti> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pitti
<mdeslaur> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from mdeslaur
<stgraber> +1 [Please send your team reports early ...]
<meetingology> +1 [Please send your team reports early ...] received from stgraber
<arosales> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from arosales
<fabo_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from fabo_
<skaet> jibel, mlegris, apw ^ any thoughts?
<skaet> Cimi ^?
<jibel> +!
<jibel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jibel
<apw> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from apw
<skaet> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from skaet
 * skaet not seeing any more votes,  but seems we probably have quorum
<pitti> skaet: #endvote
<skaet> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: change meeting to open Q&A rather than round table.
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
 * skaet thanks pitti  :)
<skaet> Thanks mlegris, jibel, mdeslaur, apw, stgraber, arosales, ogra_, fabo, pitti, dbarth, Cimi, Riddell,  ScottK
<mdeslaur> thanks skaet
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Feb 24 17:21:17 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-24-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-24-16.00.html
<Cimi> thanks skaet
<jibel> thanks skaet
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<arosales> thanks skaet
<stgraber> thanks!
<Daviey> woo, thanks
<wendar> o/
<coolbhavi> hi wendar
<ajmitch> wendar: want to chair? I'm running on not much sleep right now :)
<wendar> ajmitch: sure
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, me too late night here :)
<wendar> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Feb 24 18:02:48 2012 UTC.  The chair is wendar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ajmitch> .wi n56
<ajmitch> as you can see...
<wendar> [Link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<wendar> no past actions to review
<wendar> are stgraber and mhall119 here?
 * ajmitch cleared off the past meeting items as they were decided at the meeting
 * stgraber waves
<wendar> ajmitch: yes, that's good
<ajmitch> hi stgraber
<mhall119> o/
<wendar> ah, excellent
<coolbhavi> hi mhall119
<mhall119> hi
<wendar> [TOPIC] Discuss acceptance criteria for separate Unity Lens and Scope packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Discuss acceptance criteria for separate Unity Lens and Scope packages
<wendar> So, this was discussed in the TB meeting this week.
<wendar> And, they are willing to make an exception that allows scopes to be packaged separately from their related lenses, if the ARB recommends that as the best solution.
<mhall119> Does everybody have a clear understanding of what I'm asking for and why?
<wendar> Where we are now is basically: Does this make sense?
<wendar> Or, on a deeper level: How are we going to manage the process of approving Scopes and Lenses so it doesn't overload us, risk poor quality, or set bad precedents for the future?
<wendar> Whatever we choose, does impact our workflow.
<wendar> mhall119: How about a quick summary?
<mhall119> after our meeting with the TB, stgraber send a proposal to the ARB mailing list that I think would satisfy the need of lens/scope developers, without compromising the stability of the extras archive, and I am +1 on his proposal
<ajmitch> mhall119: can you give a (very) brief explanation of what a lense does & what a scope does
<mhall119> Quick summary: Lenses and scopes can be written independently of eachother, and we want to allow authors to submit them to the ARB separately
<mhall119> the current rules of the ARB don't allow the scope's package to Depend on the len's package
<mhall119> but without that Depends, you can have someone installing a scope they can't use
<coolbhavi> mhall119, I just found out that in the ARB review shift past week
<mhall119> a Lens provides UI information to the Unity Dash, a Scope provides search results to the Dash, to be displayed according to the Lens
<mhall119> A Scope needs to know about it's Lens, but a Lens doesn't need to know about the Scopes that use it
<wendar> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/app-review-board/2012-February/000484.html
<mhall119> so what I'm seeking is a way for a Scope author to submit their scope without the Lens author having to be involved
<wendar> good summary, thanks
<wendar> has everyone read stgraber's post from earlier this week?
<wendar> (the link above)
<mhall119> again, I am +1 on stgraber's recommended (in that link) and would be willing to help with the initial packaging
<coolbhavi> yes
<ajmitch> mhall119: the one problem in that mail from stgraber is that each scope would need to be updated by users if a new one is added for the lense - how many scopes do you see being created per lens?
<mhall119> my only concern is how much added work it will be for the ARB to handle all the packaging of lenses and scopes
<wendar> yes, I think we need to talk in more detail about how this solution might work
<wendar> I'm assuming we'd maintain a team bzr branch for each Lens
<ajmitch> it's not a lot of extra work to have them as one source package in a branch, from what I can see
<mhall119> ajmitch: as few as 0 external scopes, and probably commonly 5-6 external scopes, but could be more
<wendar> in which case, we can accept scope submissions as merge proposals
<wendar> which would significantly lessen the load
<wendar> I also had a question about upgrades
<wendar> since upgrading to a new Ubuntu release (i.e. Oneiric->Precise) is a resubmission for Extras
<wendar> that would mean that we drop all scopes, start fresh with the Lens, and accept any new scope submissions for the new release
<stgraber_> sorry looks like I can't reach hetzner from here at the moment (and so lost my IRC session ...)
<wendar> which would save us the work of upgrading all the independent scopes for incompatible API changes
<mhall119> wendar: is that because of the API change, or will this happen at every release?
<stgraber_> last I got was "18:12 < mhall119> so what I'm seeking is a way for a Scope author to submit their scope without the Lens author having to be involved", can someone paste me what I missed in private?
<wendar> mhall119: this is standard for all Extras apps
<wendar> mhal119: we don't do any upgrades, just resubmissions
<mhall119> wendar: ok, so all packages(even the lens) would need to be re-submitted?
<stgraber_> yes
<wendar> mhall119: now, the author may resubmit what is essentially just a straight copy of the old app updated for the new release
<wendar> mhall119: this allows for an easy "dropping off" effect of old apps where the author hasn't taken the trouble to make them work on the new release
<mhall119> wendar: ok, so this proposal wouldn't change that, it just means that the ARB would have to handle updating the packaging every release
<wendar> mhall119: right, this wouldn't change the policy
<mhall119> ok
<ajmitch> mhall119: I expect that from precise onwards, the lens API should be pretty stable?
<wendar> mhall119: well, I'm suggesting the ARB wouldn't even have to handle much in the way of updating the packaging
<coolbhavi> wendar, seems good enough keeping API changes in view like a new version based on old one
<wendar> mhall119: if we treat each new release as "start over with the Lens"
<stgraber_> ajmitch: thanks for the copy/paste
<mhall119> ajmitch: I've been told that it won't change, under penalty of death
<ajmitch> heh
<wendar> mhall119: that's good :)
<mhall119> of course, they said that before they changed it last time too :)
<stgraber_> so to answer the ARB time issue with my proposed solution, my feeling is that it'd actually be much faster than what we do at the moment
<wendar> mainly, I'm looking for ways to mitigate the load on the ARB, and the "resubmit at each new Ubuntu release" is definitely one or them
<stgraber_> currently we need to review a full package every time if not actually do one for them (in most cases ...)
<stgraber_> with my proposal we could have something completely templated that we just copy/paste when we get the lens
<ajmitch> a couple of small issues that I can see - need a single debian/copyright for the source package, and need to integrate build systems as lenses & scopes can be written in anything that talks dbus
<stgraber_> and from that point on, adding a scope is just copying two files and adding a debian/control and debian/changelog entry
<ajmitch> stgraber_: that's assuming they're just written in python, rather than compiled from vala
<mhall119> ajmitch: can we limit this to just python lenses and scopes for the time being?
<wendar> stgraber: yes, one of the things I mentioned when you were temporarily off IRC is that with your proposal scope submissions could take the form of branch merge proposals to the ARB branch for the Lens
<wendar> stgraber: which would be nice and simple
<ajmitch> mhall119: gladly
<ajmitch> but someone would need to explain to contributors why we only take certain scopes & not others
<wendar> ajmitch: the single debian/copyright file would list the copyrights for each author separately
<stgraber_> correct, debian/copyright should be easy to do using DEP5
<ajmitch> wendar: right, easy to list them, someone has to do the work to put it together
<stgraber_> so far all the lenses and scopes have been trivial python script, these are easy to deal with on the packaging side
<ajmitch> whether that be by some automated method
<wendar> ajmitch: indeed
<stgraber_> I indeed expect any C lens/scope to be much harder though
<mhall119> the vast, vast majority of community-developed lenses and scopes are python
<wendar> ajmitch: ah, that is a good point, we should talk with the pkg-me devs about getting lens/scope packaging into their automated tools
<mhall119> in fact, I don't know of any that aren't
<wendar> (not for Oneiric, but can help down the road)
<ajmitch> mhall119: there are examples in vala
<mhall119> ajmitch: yes, but we can reasonably assume that most will be in Python
<wendar> stgraber: the lenses/scopes I've written have all been in vala, they're still pretty simple and straightforward
<ajmitch> wendar: mhall119 has been working on getting his lens/scope stuff into quickly, so it helps on that end :)
<mhall119> especially with Singlet + a Quickly template being in 12.04
<wendar> stgraber: it's a good API
<stgraber> (back from here)
<wendar> so, if Quickly had an "add a new scope" option, that could make our lives really simple
<ajmitch> so at the moment, we're mostly +1 on the proposal, for python lenses/scopes?
<mhall119> wendar: which is technically possible
<wendar> mhall119: yup
<wendar> ajmitch: yes, I'm in favor of stgraber's proposal
<wendar> ajmitch: we have some details to work out, but it's good overall
<mhall119> an added benefit of stgraber's proposal is that it doesn't require any rules changes
<ajmitch> mhall119: it'd be really nice to get unity to reload its list of lenses without reloading :)
<ajmitch> wendar: great
<mhall119> ajmitch: yeah, that's low on their priority list though, so unless someone outside of DX does it, it's not likely for 12.04
<wendar> should we carry it to a vote?
<stgraber> ajmitch: oh yeah, that one is really annoying ;)
<ajmitch> wendar: might need to set #voters, but yeah
<mhall119> ajmitch: I've got unity building locally, and trying to understand enough C++ to implement the fix myself, but don't count on it
<ajmitch> mhall119: yeah, I took a brief walk through the code to see how possible it'd be
<ajmitch> maybe I need to sit down with thomi & have him explain it :)
<mhall119> ajmitch: mhr3 was helping me, njpatel would be a good person to talk to as well
<wendar> #vote To approve stgraber's proposal for handling Lenses and Scopes in ARB managed combined packages
<meetingology> Please vote on: To approve stgraber's proposal for handling Lenses and Scopes in ARB managed combined packages
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<wendar> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from wendar
<ajmitch> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ajmitch
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: still awake? :)
<coolbhavi> +1 provided resubmission cycle doesnt have overloading effect
<meetingology> +1 provided resubmission cycle doesnt have overloading effect received from coolbhavi
<wendar> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: To approve stgraber's proposal for handling Lenses and Scopes in ARB managed combined packages
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<wendar> We can review how this went at the start of the Precise cycle, and decide if we need to make any changes.
<ajmitch> ok, now to take it to the TB list, should get it passed there quickly
<mhall119> does this still need to go to the TB, since it's not a rule change?
<wendar> ajmitch: actually, since we aren't making any policy changes, they won't need to vote
<ajmitch> wendar: even better
<wendar> ajmitch: but, I'll summarize and post to the TB list, so they know for the next meeting
<ajmitch> thanks
<mhall119> I propose we start with a single lens+scope combination to work out the kinks and get a package template, would you like to target Oneiric or Precise?
<wendar> mhall119: we can start setting up the first repos this afternoon if you have time
<mhall119> wendar: I do
<wendar> mhall119: Oneiric for now
<mhall119> ok
<wendar> mhall119: so start with any Lenses that use the Oneiric APIs
<wendar> thanks mhall119!
<mhall119> wendar: I'll pick a couple of candidates, and send them to the ARB's mailing list?
<mhall119> or should I submit them through MyApps?
<wendar> mhall119: if you want to discuss which are most appropriate to start with, we can talk on the list or IRC
<stgraber_> mhall119: look at the unity-lens-utilities one as an example
<wendar> mhall119: but, if you're pretty certain, go ahead and submitt to MyApps
<stgraber_> mhall119: it currently contains a lens and two scopes
<wendar> mhall119: that way it's in the queue
<stgraber_> mhall119: all of them in python and all of them nicely protected by apparmor
<mhall119> stgraber_: that's already in USC isn't it?
<stgraber_> mhall119: yep, that one is already in extras
<stgraber_> mhall119: so you can just look at the branch and re-use for the others
<mhall119> stgraber_: ok, so we'll use that as a packaging template, and I'll find a new candidate for our first run
<stgraber_> mhall119: http://code.launchpad.net/~stgraber/+junk/arb-utilities-lens/
<coolbhavi> mhall119 I would be interested in testing lenses+scopes out in oneiric as I pointed out past week
<mhall119> coolbhavi: check the onehundredscopes project on LP, there's a bunch of them there
<wendar> coolbhavi: great!
<coolbhavi> mhall119, sure will pull them this weekend and have a look. Thanks!
<wendar> a few quick other agenda items
<wendar> [TOPIC] Policy check on QMuttNotifier (indicator, rather than stand-alone app)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Policy check on QMuttNotifier (indicator, rather than stand-alone app)
<wendar> I'm suggesting that we reject this one.
<mhall119> thanks everyone for bearing with me and helping find a resolution on this
<ajmitch> imo, indicators are fine - they're standalone enough
<wendar> mhall119: thank you, and we look forward to seeing those Lenses and Scopes coming through :)
<mhall119> so do I?
<ajmitch> not trying to be contrary, but they've got similar desktop integration requirements that lenses do
<mhall119> :), not ?
<stgraber_> I think indicators should be fine, as long as they live in /opt and just ship the required desktop file out of it and properly namespaced
<stgraber_> obviously depending on exactly what the indicator does though
<wendar> it says it requires konsole
<stgraber_> oh, that sounds wrong ;)
<ajmitch> it's because it pops up a terminal to load mutt in
<stgraber_> sure but we have x-terminal-emulator for that
<wendar> which violates our "no command-line apps" policy
<ajmitch> not sure how kde-dependent the rest of the code is, and if we're wanting to accept things for other desktops :)
<wendar> though, in an indirect way
<ajmitch> very indirect, the no command-line apps was mostly due to PATH
<wendar> I brought it to discuss, because it's a bit of an edge case
<stgraber_> well, our policy says we don't accept command line apps, this one isn't, it just calls one ;)
<ajmitch> I think it's an edge case for a different reason - does the software centre separate things by desktop environment, or indicate somehow that it's for kde?
<wendar> aye, we don't have a specific security requirement about launching other command-line apps from GUI apps
<wendar> ajmitch: not currently, no
<wendar> It just seems like the kind of thing Kubuntu should be reviewing
<wendar> If people would prefer, I can bounce it back with our new policy of requiring a PPA
<wendar> so, the author would need to resubmit
<wendar> but, I didn't want to do that if there was no chance we'd ever accept it
<wendar> it doesn't seem fair to ask the author for a bunch of work and then say "Sorry, we can't accept it"
<ajmitch> right, I don't think we have any policy on derivatives, or if we should
<wendar> It currently doesn't even have build instructions, just bare source code.
<wendar> I could also simply ask how heavily this depends on KDE
<coolbhavi> wendar, then I m also a bit skeptical because the software centre doesnt categorize it under different DE's but we can have it in the description that its for kde. But is there an option to launch mutt without cli? havent tried it though
<wendar> like, if it's a KDE indicator, rather than a Unity indicator, and installing it would essentially pull in KDE as a dependency
<wendar> then, that would violate our policies about modifying low-level system components
<ajmitch> wendar: I just built it, it doesn't pull in any KDE libs, just Qt
<wendar> ajmitch: did you install it? does it integrate with the Oneiric Unity indicators?
<ajmitch> wendar: I haven't installed it, just tried running it in-place on precise
<coolbhavi> people sorry have to leave because m getting very sleepy
<ajmitch> it complained about ~/.muttrc not existing & didn't get further than that
<wendar> okay, thanks coolbhavi, we're just about done
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: ok, thanks for being here :)
<wendar> Sounds like the general consensus is that we could accept this.
<wendar> So, I'll go ahead and ask him to make the usual fixes.
<ajmitch> if it's not going to break a normal desktop, it should be ok
<wendar> [TOPIC] Policy check on EasyISO (filesystem mount/unmount utility)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Policy check on EasyISO (filesystem mount/unmount utility)
<ajmitch> the author should probably check ~/.mutt/muttrc as well :)
<stgraber> wendar: mount/unmount requires root and so gksudo => reject
<ajmitch> this is just for ISOs, can't it be done with FUSE?
<wendar> a quick grep shows that it's using fuseiso
<ajmitch> so it doesn't look like it should need any root privileges in that case
<wendar> [LINK] https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/655/
<wendar> ajmitch: I can't say that for sure until I do the full code review
<stgraber> if it never uses root permissions, then I guess it's fine
<ajmitch> wendar: it currently fails if fuseiso isn't installed
<wendar> ajmitch: that would mean fuseiso would be a package dependency
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> it's in universe
<wendar> ajmitch: that's okay, Extras are allowed to depend on universe
<wendar> it's enabled by default
<ajmitch> right, was just mentioning that it's at least packaged already :)
<broder> can't nautilus do something like that already?
<ajmitch> sorry if I'm not making much sense, still waking up
<wendar> my main question was whether this was appropriate at all for Extras
<wendar> as in, it's more of a filesystem tool than an "app"
<wendar> with the potential to interfere with other filesystem tools (like nautilus)
<wendar> like, what if there's some race condition on who mounts what when and where?
<broder> gvfs can already open iso files and expose them through gvfs-fuse - is there more of a value add here than mounting the iso at an arbitrary path?
<ajmitch> when I run the app, it looks extremely basic
<wendar> "Apps should be useful or interesting to a general audience. "
<wendar> is it?
<wendar> We're at the end of our time
<stgraber> if gvfs takes care of the use case already, then there's not much point in the app
<stgraber> other than making the feature more visible to the user
<ajmitch> at a glance I think it's potentially useful for exposing it in an easy way
<wendar> Sounds like this will need more general discussion.
<wendar> so, carry to the mailing list
<ajmitch> ok
<wendar> one last thing
<wendar> [TOPIC] General status of ARB queue
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: General status of ARB queue
<wendar> We're actually doing quite well.
<wendar> Only 20 apps in the queue.
<wendar> of which, 5 are new
<wendar> Some lingering issues for the MyApps developers:
 * ajmitch needs to catch up & push stuff to voting once little things like patching are sorted :)
<wendar> - We need a way to list apps that are waiting for replys from the developer
<ajmitch> does someone want to take ubuntu-tweak & reply to the feedback?
<wendar> - We're waiting on the patch application that will allow us to drop apps that have already launched from the queue, instead of keeping them forever in Pending QA status.
<wendar> ajmitch: Can we switch back to only having reviewers "own" one app at a time?
<wendar> ajmitch: I'm running out of things to package.
<ajmitch> wendar: of course
<wendar> ajmitch: which one are you currently working on?
<ajmitch> tagplayer
<wendar> cool, I'll leave that one
<ajmitch> I don't want to be a blocker on anything else
<wendar> I'll do a general mailing list post and make sure I'm not working over the top of anyone else.
<wendar> I think once we clear out some of the backlog, we'll be in good shape
<wendar> The "new" submissions are pretty easy to tend in a couple of hours a week
<wendar> so, the review shifts will take care of them
<wendar> And, that's all.
<wendar> ajmitch: are you following up with dpitkin on the changes to see apps waiting for feedback?
<wendar> ajmitch: should I note that as an action item for you?
<ajmitch> yes, it's on my weekend todo list
<wendar> sweet, thanks!
<wendar> And, thanks everybody!
<wendar> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Feb 24 19:10:50 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-24-18.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-24-18.02.html
<stgraber> thanks!
<ajmitch> thanks
<wendar> ajmitch: I can look at ubuntu-tweak this afternoon
<ajmitch> wendar: alright
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-26
 * funkyHat wiggles
 * Pici waggles
 * h00k straggle
<h00k> s.
 * h00k sighs
 * funkyHat signs
<AlanBell> hi all
<oCean> o/
 * AlanBell is just making a coffee
<AlanBell> will start in a sec
<h00k> just poured a cup.
 * oCean steals that cup
<h00k> oCean: it was a cup of dog food for my dog. but okay.
<oCean> :(
<oCean> it smells
 * AlanBell haz coffee
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Feb 26 18:03:05 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<AlanBell> hi all, who is here for the IRCC/IRC team meeting?
<Silverlion> o/
<Pici> Howdy!
<h00k> hello
<LjL> hi
<Pici> Could someone paste the agenda? I don't have my email handy on this computer.
<funkyHat> Ã´/
<funkyHat> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<Pici> Thanks
<Myrtti> _o/
<oCean> hey
<AlanBell> ok, thanks for coming, lets get started then
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review last meetings action items
<AlanBell> hmm, sure there were some
<bazhang> hi
<AlanBell> there were
<AlanBell> #progress AlanBell to sort out fridge calendar entries
<AlanBell> not done yet, will sort it before the next meeting
<AlanBell> #progress AlanBell to mail the list asking for help to add ban timeout removal to ubottu
<AlanBell> done, I mailed the list proposing a bots hack day for the global jam weekend
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> well we didn't raise an item in the tracker, but we are dealing with one issue where a user has made a complaint about a ban
<Silverlion> any details?
<AlanBell> it would have been a lot simpler if they had just gone to the -ops channel to get it resolved, it was quite routine
<h00k> Oh. was this the issue raised to me in a /query?
<AlanBell> no, don't think so h00k
<Pici> They went outside the resolution process so we've just been talking to the ops that dealt with the user first.
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on to bugs
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
<AlanBell> this is the one with a new draft here: http://notes.kde.org/ubuntuguidelines
<AlanBell> they look pretty good to me, I think we need to wikify it and get it published
<Pici> I think its making good progress myself
 * h00k concurs
<AlanBell> we might also review it a bit in light of the supporters guidelines that we were working on this week
<AlanBell> would be nice to have them as a pair of documents that focus on different audiences
<Pici> Agreed.
<LjL> i think maybe we should put some of the more important factoids in the guidelines in addition, to me it seems sometimes the guidelines mention things that aren't an issue often, while those that are are relegated to factoids...
<LjL> but that could easily turn into guideline-creep, so not sure
<Pici> LjL: Do you have an example?
<AlanBell> what would be a good next step on this, I want to do an #action item for it
<LjL> Pici: well, for instance see !etiquette - the fact that we (well, i) felt the need to consolidate a few "good behavior" factoids into one comes close to a set of guidelines
 * Silverlion agrees with LjL
<LjL> Pici: maybe we should do it with method, i.e. grep and find which factoids are most often used, and if they're guideline-like factoids, include them
<ikonia> a common sense review of the factoids DB in general may be in order
<Pici> Sounds doable
<ikonia> it's not been done for a while
<ikonia> doing things like trying to link to official wiki pages etc
<AlanBell> http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi?db=ubuntu&search=&order=popularity%20DESC&page=0 popular factoids
<h00k> oh look, how convenient
<AlanBell> anyhow, next steps? is it ready to go on the wiki?
<LjL> well it can't be ready, there are still some "FIXME's" in it
<AlanBell> that doesn't mean it can't be edited still, just gets edits at a slower pace and people can subscribe to updates
<Pici> I think we should send out the whole thing to the list to enourage edits.
<AlanBell> sounds good
<h00k> the whole thing wiki, or as-is in the...multi-user-editor that I can't remember the name of?
<AlanBell> #action Pici to send mail to the list about the guidelines document to encourage edits and fixes to the FIXMEs
<meetingology> ACTION: Pici to send mail to the list about the guidelines document to encourage edits and fixes to the FIXMEs
<LjL> maybe it should be put on the wiki provisionally and an email sent out, that way it's probably easier to track changes than with the current "editpad"?=
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671
<Pici> h00k: whichever is more up-to-date.  I'd prefer to keep things on the wiki though, I like seeing edits as the come in.
<AlanBell> yes, lets put it on the wiki then. Etherpad is good for fast uncontrolled edits and drafting things, the wiki is good for more controlled edits
<h00k> etherpad. that's it.
<AlanBell> ok, IRC recruitment, I did some scripty things to look at the queues
<AlanBell> bother, can't find the pastebin link I did, will have to run it again later
 * Silverlion pays attention now as a recruit
<AlanBell> unless anyone can find it in -ops-team from last week
 * h00k checks
<AlanBell> anyhow, I listed everyone in the queues, and highligted those who are existing operators
<AlanBell> most of the existing ops who are in a queue are lined up for #ubuntu-server
<AlanBell> I think we should just process all existing core ops applications for additional channels
<Pici> I thought we processed that queue already?
<funkyHat> http://paste.ubuntu.com/847836/
<h00k> AlanBell: http://paste.ubuntu.com/847836/
<h00k> d'aw. funkyHat wins.
 * funkyHat does a dance
<AlanBell> thats the one I was looking for, thanks
<Myrtti> hold on, how do I read that
<h00k>  My method not so efficient. cat, grep > alan, cat grep paste, review.
<AlanBell> so **** Team **** channel name marks a new channel, those under it are in the pending queue
<Pici> Myrtti: If theres a !! in front of your nick then you're already an op somewhere.
<AlanBell> !! marks someone already a member of an ops team somewhere
<ubottu> AlanBell: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<AlanBell> silly ubottu
<Myrtti> ah alright
<Pici> I don't have any issues approving people who are already an op somewhere.
<Pici> They're already vetted imo.
<Myrtti> got me worried there for a few minutes, there's some nicks on those lists that I'd be worried about
<Myrtti> nice way to raise my heartrate :-P
<AlanBell> Myrtti: yeah, I am just proposing we do the !! ones without further delay
<AlanBell> the rest I think we should do in batches to line up with training
<Pici> Shall we vote on it?
<AlanBell> yeah, lets
<AlanBell> #voters AlanBell Pici funkyHat
<meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell Pici funkyHat
<funkyHat> +1
<AlanBell> #vote channel op applications from existing operators should be processed as and when they are received and the existing applications should be processed without further delay
<meetingology> Please vote on: channel op applications from existing operators should be processed as and when they are received and the existing applications should be processed without further delay
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
<funkyHat> Oops
<funkyHat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from funkyHat
<Pici> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pici
<AlanBell> you are just too fast today funkyHat
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: channel op applications from existing operators should be processed as and when they are received and the existing applications should be processed without further delay
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<funkyHat> hehe
<h00k> that was a close one.
<AlanBell> :)
<Pici> :P
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
 * Myrtti rubs her hands
<AlanBell> yeah, we will be addressing that on the bot-jam day
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell
<Pici> mmm... robot jam
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
<AlanBell> I have not done any more on this
<Pici> I think some launchpad scripting could show us this quickly.
<AlanBell> Pici: funkyHat: got some time to work on this?
<Pici> Actually, I think someone might already have a script.
<AlanBell> Pici: yes, we have the list
<Pici> AlanBell: I'll take it.
<AlanBell> #action Pici to work on the list of expired members
<meetingology> ACTION: Pici to work on the list of expired members
<Pici> We just need someone to go throug it with a staffer?
<LjL> Pici: too late, you've got it now
<funkyHat> :D
<Pici> s/someone/me/
<AlanBell> yeah, I did a few, you have to try to contact them, then get an unaffiliated cloak, or do a membership renewal as appropriate
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916247
<AlanBell> this was despammed and locked down, we were going to transfer some of the content and close the wiki, just keeping the bug open whilst that happens, but it isn't a high priority
<AlanBell> ok, that is the end of the bugs
<AlanBell> #topic Why would we allow recommending PPA's in a support channel? Background - oCean
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Why would we allow recommending PPA's in a support channel? Background - oCean
<AlanBell> ok, oCean, you have the floor
<oCean> Right, I already started at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal
<oCean> In addition: I would prefer we would stop recommending PPA's altogether, instead of saying "recommend software sources in a logical order" as seen in the recent Supporters Guide
<AlanBell> I like the idea of a ratings system for PPAs
<oCean> Or we would still have these ambivalent situation where factoids and guides claim PPA's are not officially supported, but one can still go ahead, use any PPA, wreck their system, and use good time from helpers in the channels to get the PPA issues sorted
<Pici> Me too
<LjL> I really don't think we should put a blanket ban on PPAs. They are an important part of the ecosystem, and additionally, just like it's always been ok to suggest, say, compiling something from source - BUT ONLY AFTER pointing out its availability in repositories, if any, and ONLY WHILE giving appropriate disclaimers - I think it should be ok to suggest a PPA. It's bad to just "randomly recommend" a PPA, but that's another story. I don't think we should
<LjL> be conflating the two.
<tsimpson> some PPAs are supported, and #kubuntu will definitely still recommend some PPAs
<popey> I find it disappointing that PPAs are rejected en-masse and words like "wrecked" are being used about them
<Pici> LjL: +1
<oCean> popey: are you in #ubuntu a lot?
<popey> LjL: +1
<funkyHat> +1
<Silverlion> afk for short
<popey> oCean: what bearing does that have on the question?
<oCean> popey: then you would notice that a large number of PPA's do wreck people's systems
<oCean> it's not something I just came up with
<Pici> Lets not make the mistake of saying that "since there are some bad PPAs that all PPAs are bad"
<popey> there are many PPAs that are not problematic
<oCean> Pici, there are >10,000 active PPA's
<h00k> It's true, PPAs can be very bad(tm), but there are some good PPAs that aren't problematic
<popey> many PPAs which are in fact maintained by the upstream developers, like unity for example
<bazhang> including the link to the PPA for gnome3 with the fact that a reinstall is the only way to fix was not a good idea
<Myrtti> I very rarely use PPA's and it is impossible for me to know which PPA's are problematic and which are not. Even if upstream developers maintain them, they may not be well versed with packaging for Ubuntu...
<popey> alan@deep-thought:/etc/apt/sources.list.d$ ls -l *.list | wc -l
<Myrtti> I just really, really hope that the rating system suggested by popeys bug is implemented soon
<LjL> oCean, it's always possible for a helper to refuse helping someone if they feel they're wasting their time while doing that. I rather think we've been too strict with the "not supported" lately; even if a user "wrecked" their system by doing something unsupported, does that really entitle us to actively stop people from helping with that?
<popey> 17
<popey> some of us use PPAs a lot and they dont break at all
<Pici> popey: Those present are hardly a representative group of Ubuntu users.
<Myrtti> popey: you know yourself WFM isn't a valid answer...
<popey> i was merely pointing out a counter position
<popey> based on some evidence of a long time ubuntu user
<oCean> LjL: I know, sure I want to help them too, but I'd rather have them not install the PPA's at all
<oCean> Please realize that PPA's are suggested _all the time_
<bazhang> hourly
<oCean> little under 1000 mentions of PPA's in the last 3 months for #u alone
<bazhang> and webupd8 is the top o the list
<oCean> that's without ubottu's explaining what ppa is
<Pici> I think we need to remind folks that PPAs don't receive the same amount of testing that packages in the repositories do.
<h00k> oh, that place :(
<LjL> oCean: the root of the problem is that the official repositories contain 30000 packages. That's a lot, but it's hardly enough for a lot of users. Some users simply need/want packages that aren't there. Are we going to instantly mark a system as "not supported" as soon as something not from the official repositories is installed? Isn't that a very "app store" mentality?
<LjL> Pici: we need to do that, and we need to point it out to helpers who neglect to mention that.
<LjL> Pici: but that's a long shot from *banning* them.
<LjL> (the PPAs, not the users)
<Pici> LjL: Agreed. A blanket ban on PPAs isn't going to a) work, or b) be followed
<bazhang> PPA have effectively turned Ubuntu into a rolling release distro
<oCean> LjL: I realize that, and of course I use PPA's myself. But there is a difference, because I know how to use them, judge them etc
<AlanBell> lets review a few factoids
<AlanBell> !ppa
<ubottu> A Personal Package Archive (PPA) can provide alternate software not normally available in the offical Ubuntu repositories - Looking for a PPA? See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas - WARNING: PPAs are unsupported third-party packages, and you use them at your own risk. See also !addppa
<AlanBell> !ppa-purge
<ubottu> To disable a PPA from your sources and revert your packages back to default Ubuntu packages, install ppa-purge and use the command: Â« sudo ppa-purge ppa:<repository-name>/<subdirectory> Â» â For more information, see http://www.webupd8.org/2009/12/remove-ppa-repositories-via-command.html
<h00k> for reference,
<popey> oCean: so teach people who to use them and judge them, rather than use them yourself and reject the use for others
<popey> thats a very elitest attitude to have
<h00k> oh, never mind, AlanBell beat me.
<Pici> I heartily agree with popey and LjL here.
<Myrtti> I just wish 11.04 would go EOL quicker
<h00k> ^ this
<bazhang> no!
<AlanBell> why 11.04?
<oCean> Pici: that would still leave us with the ambivalence of saying "is not supported", but you can do what you like and ask for help again
<funkyHat> Buggy unity?
<h00k> Unity there is  :(
<Myrtti> because either people install it to use Gnome2, or then they use a PPA to install Gnome3 on it, and it breaks.
<LjL> oCean: well, there are various levels of "not supported", and just making it black and white is simply impossible
<LjL> oCean: Backports is an official thing, yet it's less supported than the main repos, for instance.
<Myrtti> either way it's the fall-between-cracks version that is infinite source of pain
<Pici> oCean: And? For the majority of people who use PPAs, the PPA that they've used isn't the issue that they've come to #ubuntu to have solved.
<oCean> LjL: ok, I understand not everything is black and white, so we have to be more explicit in what the levels of support mean
<AlanBell> well this is what I mean about pointing to upgrades in a sensible order, if you are running 11.04 then upgrading through the release numbers is better than a mass of hybrid backports from PPAs
<bazhang> PPA are an important issue, and agreeing to help fix issues with / related to them
<bazhang> get it on webupd8, and it's part of the Ubuntu rolling release
<Myrtti> I don't have problems helping people who have PPA's. But if problems are caused by PPA stuff or there's explicit problem with stuff from PPA, then it gets hairy
<bazhang> so what if Mintmenu is part of the PPA
<popey> From a personal perspective some of the work my team does at Canonical is put into PPAs. I'd be kinda annoyed if #ubuntu refuses to allow users to discover that work, by banning the primary method my team has to deliver it.
<LjL> oCean: you have to rely on people's common sense a little. People can and will start recommending to do thing the "reasonable" way if we actively point out the issues when we encounter them in the channel. Ops are not just there to ban people, they're also there to give the channel a direction, and that not only by means of guidelines and meetings, but also by means of what they say in the channel day-to-day.
<tsimpson> PPAs are not the only thing that cause those problems, any non-Canonical repository could. should be ban anything that isn't 100% official (as defined by Canonical)?
<tsimpson> I don't see a solution, other than simply educating users
<Pici> Educating our helpers will go a long way in getting people to understand the risks of PPAs and benefits of PPAs.
<tsimpson> maybe someone messes things up, and they need to reinstall. we help them backup their data and get a working system again. they gain experience
<bazhang> relying on common sense when some users will not even read the channel topic
<oCean> bazhang: +1
<LjL> bazhang, oCean: if users are all idiots, then we might as well give up.
<LjL> I thought the idea why we're still here is that we think they aren't.
<oCean> LjL: no, but we might try our best to limit them in the possiblities to ruin their systems
<AlanBell> I kind of favour providing more information for people to make decisions about what they do with their systems
<bazhang> I have no problem with Ubuntu being a rolling release distro, buts let be honest, thats what the floodgate of PPA is doing
<oCean> That's why the rmrf command is an alias, right?
<Pici> Again, its not the users we need to convince, its our helpers.  The people who are there every day are the best people to educate about this sort of thing.  They'll do all the legwork when it comes to telling the users who can't manage to read our channel topic.
<popey> i disagree with bazhangs assertion
<bazhang> that did not highlight me
<oCean> Pici: yes, but there are many "drive-by" helpers
<popey> there's a chasm between ubuntu plus a bunch of PPAs, and a rolling distro
<LjL> oCean: but that command being an alias doesn't really stop them from doing on their systems what they need. Likewise, "sudo" instead of root doesn't, because they can do everything with "sudo". They simply CAN'T do everything by ONLY using the official repositories.
<tsimpson> it's not our place to decide what "users" should and should not be able to do with their system. we can warn, inform, and educate. but we can't tie their hand and stop them from doing what they choose to do
<LjL> oCean: and there are many regular helpers and ops who will correct them.
<bazhang> there's a new kernel, I'm on Lucid, I want it
<AlanBell> ok, I wonder if we are going round in circles at this point, perhaps we should draw this topic to a close
<oCean> LjL: yes, sure. But would an explicit statement, more then just "not supported" be valuable?
<bazhang> et voila there is a PPA for it
<funkyHat> oCean: how is drive by helpers suggesting bad PPAs going to be stopped by banning suggesting PPAs?
<oCean> So, if we're not about to say "don't use PPA's" we definitely need to be more explicit with that
<Pici> bazhang: And I'm sure that we'll all tell you that you're probably going to have issues with it, but you're going to install it anyway.
<LjL> oCean: no, as it would completely destroy the possibility for experienced helpers to suggest reasonable PPAs when appropriate.
<oCean> funkyHat: because then we would have means to tell them "please don't suggest ppa's"
<bazhang> LjL, please explain where the reasonable PPA are
<phillw> there are some times when adding a PPA for a specific problem is warranted
<oCean> LjL: yes, that's true, that's what happens when one uses Ubuntu. Not everything is in the repositories
<LjL> oCean: you can still tell them "please don't suggest PPAs without first having informed them about the software availability in the repositories, and without giving the due disclaimers about PPAs not being part of Ubuntu"
<bazhang> they all look good to me. and some are very very tempting to install to be honest
<LjL> you could always do that, it's always been done, with all things, even before PPAs existed
<oCean> Root cause might be that the ubuntu distribution does not provide everything a users wishes. Too bad
<AlanBell> #vote set a new policy to ask helpers to not recommend PPAs in #ubuntu
<meetingology> Please vote on: set a new policy to ask helpers to not recommend PPAs in #ubuntu
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from AlanBell
<funkyHat> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from funkyHat
<Pici> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from Pici
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: set a new policy to ask helpers to not recommend PPAs in #ubuntu
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:3 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
<Pici> PPAs are more accountable than random source packages out there as well.
<AlanBell> ok, I think we should focus on providing more information about the types of PPA out there
<Myrtti> you could have just vetoed on Snowball
<bazhang> that would be great. how to rate them
<popey> Do we have any stats for which PPAs are "bad" from #u experience?
<oCean> All 11.000 of 'em :(
<bazhang> hehe
<bazhang> 10999 (handbrake is ok)
<AlanBell> #topic Support in -offtopic? Background - oCean
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Support in -offtopic? Background - oCean
<oCean> Also on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal
<funkyHat> I seem to recall discussions about ppa ratings at least a year ago either on -devel@ or one of the launchpad lists... I wonder if there is progress
<oCean> This is an other matter we discussed in -ops or -team, but I don't think there was consensus
<AlanBell> yeah, and I have a mail from Mark that relates to this a little
<AlanBell> so yesterday we discussed a separate topic of canonical sending people to #ubuntu to discuss the android hybrid thing
<AlanBell> that is going to be addressed, but one of the things from sabdfl's response was . . .
<AlanBell>  * if there is a better IRC channel for general "hello, I'm interested in X with Ubuntu, where should I go?", then let me know and I'll update the team to use that for the cases where they do judge the audience to be developer or at least highly technical in nature.
<AlanBell> is #ubuntu-offtopic that place?
<Pici> no.
<Pici> Or at least not in -offtopic's current state.
<bazhang> #ubuntu-phone ?
<AlanBell> I didn't think so either, is there a place for it?
<Myrtti> bazhang: not really
<Tm_T> bazhang: that's not general channel (:
<Tm_T> AlanBell: -irc?
<Myrtti> no
<Pici> no
<AlanBell> bazhang: it is plausibly a reasonable place for it in this specific instance, but Mark was asking in general terms
<Tm_T> shortly put, we currently don't have such place
<bazhang> AlanBell, ok
<Pici> I don't think we currently have a place, and if we want to, we need the participation of our developers to make it work.
<ikonia> sorry - but what is the point of sending people to a channel with no info ?
<Tm_T> ikonia: a very good point
<LjL> Pici: yes, sabdfl can't just expect us to come up with places to discuss things nobody knows about out of a hat
<ikonia> "hi I'm interested" - ok "sit there in this dead channel...."
<ikonia> why not ask people to subscibe to an announce mail list so they get news when there is news
<Myrtti> ikonia: zombie channel is more to the point
<Myrtti> or undead
<Pici> ikonia: People want to interact and ask questions.
<Myrtti> it's worse than dead, it's just users pingponging questions and rumours around, possibly making things worse than if there were no such discussion at all
<ikonia> but there is no answer
<ikonia> Hi, tell me more about this product"
<ikonia> There is nothing to tell
<ikonia> why can't we say "there is nothing to tell at this time, subscribe to the accounce mailing list"
<ikonia> why point people to a channel full of nothing
<Pici> Again, we would need the people in-the-know to be present before we could tell users to go there.
<AlanBell> well they are going to stop doing that
<Pici> Unless the tech board (or whatever) wants us to start funneling into -devel to ask questions, I don't see another way of fixing this.
<Tm_T> "if there is a better IRC channel for general "hello, I'm interested in X with Ubuntu, where should I go?", then let me know"
<Pici> and I dont want to point people to -devel
<AlanBell> in fact, this wasn't really a private email, you might as well see all of it
<Tm_T> that is question we can figure out an answer
<AlanBell> -devel don't know about it either
<AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/858209/
<ikonia> just feed back to canonical "IRC is useless without information, I suggest setting up a mailing list for people to subscrive to so you can make an annoucment when you have something to announce"
<AlanBell> ikonia: I did, basically
<Tm_T> so let's keep "discussion of nonexistant products" issue separate from general place-to-go channel issue
<LjL> I have to go now. I just wanted to say about #ubuntu-offtopic that I don't think we should have a "no support" policy because EVEN WITHOUT having such a policy yet, I've already seen people going to extremes by shutting discussions down as they were remotely support-like. #ubuntu-offtopic shouldn't discourage talking about Ubuntu. Instead, let the people there NICELY suggest "have you tried asking in #ubuntu?", let's enforce a stricter "no repeating"
<LjL> rule than in #ubuntu, and let's not allow banned people to obtain support in #ubuntu-offtopic.
<h00k> ^ I concur with this
<AlanBell> yeah, I agree with not supporting banned people, certainly
<Pici> Agreed.
<ikonia> AlanBell and the response i better than I understood when you mentioned it, so thank you
<Pici> I don't think I understand what you just said ikonia, but okay ;)
<AlanBell> I think #ubuntu-offtopic should be the place for discussion about ubuntu that isn't support, or we should have #ubuntu-discuss or #ubuntu-chat or something for that
<ikonia> Pici: it was in relation to the android email
<ikonia> AlanBell: I've aksed for this many times and it's just a non-starter
<AlanBell> why?
<Myrtti> I've grown to dislike -offtopic as a channel name
<ikonia> AlanBell: people want -offtopic to be random stuff
<ikonia> to do what ever you feel like saying inside the !o4o and !coc guidelines
<Tm_T> that's what "offtopic" means?
<ikonia> I wanted to bring the offtopic channels together and have a bit of community discussion around ubuntu as a project
<ikonia> technical/non-technical, just "stuff"
<Pici> As much as the channel sometimes annoys me, I think that -offtopic is fine and another Ubuntu-centric discussion channel would be better.
<Silverlion> folks: wouldn't it be better to have just ONE Offtopic chan?
<ikonia> rather than having 4 - 5 offtopic channels of people just saying words
<Silverlion> like the community cafe on the forums?
<Pici> Silverlion: IRC can't be separated into threads like forums can.
<Pici> Not without creating separate channels
<h00k> #ubuntu-ubuntu-discussion, #ubuntu-what-you-had-for-lunch, #ubuntu-break-from-support,
<h00k> :(
<funkyHat> People like their spaces, and having more than one offtopic channel doesn't seem to be hurting
<Tm_T> Silverlion: one?
<bazhang> h00k, heh
<Myrtti> or going to the other direction - #x-ot, #k-ot, #u-ot, #l-ot
<Myrtti> should there be ONE CHAN TO RULE THEM ALL?
<Myrtti> :-P
<tsimpson> the point of offtopic is that it's not one topic, it's the exception to the "an IRC channel has a specific topic" rule
<Silverlion> Tm_T: i wanted to "melt" the -offtopic chans together and name it "community cafe"
<Pici> tsimpson: good point.
<ikonia> funkyHat: it's also not building anything, there are people spread out in each channel that are "quality" yet there have little to say mixed in with people just saying radonom stuff
<ikonia> tsimpson: there should be tons of topics, fully agree
<AlanBell> ok, some interesting suggestions there, but I think we are not going to make any decisions on this today
<h00k> It's nice to have a place to talk about $stuff, and not $ubuntu-stuff all the time,
<Silverlion> that way we do have a better overview and can create some community feeling
<Pici> h00k: +10
<h00k> which is nice to take a break from #ubuntu in there, but also included are people who don't help
<Tm_T> Silverlion: not going to happen, it's been considered for years, and see where we are (:
<phillw> the -ot channels are already the cafe for each group?
<Pici> Silverlion: I've suggested that before, it didn't go over well. (although that was a lonjg time ago)
 * popey returns to see #ubuntu-phone stuff
<pangolin> I don't see why -offtopic can't have multiple topics going on at the same time. Just like in #ubuntu where you don't answer every questions asked.
 * popey would like to help fix the issues there. Suggestions welcome.
<AlanBell> popey: get the people who know what they are talking about to engage with the channel
<popey> well.
<AlanBell> yeah, I know that might not be possible
<popey> the problem there is that #ubuntu-phone was never supposed to be for the current announced convergence device
<tsimpson> we do have a (dead) #ubuntu-mobile going unused
<popey> it was meant for discussion of a phone running ubuntu
<AlanBell> yes, we do appreciate that
<popey> not the converged device that you've been talking about
<Silverlion> do we need to channels to discuss topics that should be discussed here?
<popey> so directing people there means they dont actually get to talk to the 'right people'
<AlanBell> popey: did you see the email that is going out to people who register an interest in the hybrid thing?
<popey> i only saw your pastebin above
<Myrtti> popey: but it was the best channel for example I could think out quickly when people started asking about "where can I discuss"
<popey> Myrtti: sure, i appreciate that
<h00k> so, before I forget, where are we with -offtopic?
<AlanBell> popey: http://paste.ubuntu.com/858223/
<popey> ok, and mark has said that will be fixed?
<AlanBell> popey: yes, I brought it up here because mark was asking about a general channel to send people to for discussions
<Pici> popey: Since you're more on the developer side of things for this, would you prefer users/power users/non-ubuntu developers dropping in on a team channel (like -devel, -kernel -x, whathaveyou) or a separate technically focussed discussion channel?
<Pici> Purely for asking questions about new ubuntu tech, not tech support.
<popey> well, i setup -phone, -tablet and -tv for exactly that kind of thing
<oCean> h00k: :) Yeah, I raised two points: 1) don't shut down support questions, just suggest a regular support chan might be more appropriate 2) don't support banned users in -ot
<popey> I'm happy for people to ping me in those channels if there are questions that have not been answered
<popey> and would like to help create a FAQ for each to help direct people to the 'right' answers
<popey> would that help?
<AlanBell> it would, yes
<Pici> popey: And if those channels already have developers who are willing to answer user questions present, then I think we just need to work out a way to publicize those channels.
<popey> they do
<h00k> also, operators there?
<popey> -tv has had lots of discussion with the guys who actually wrote it
<Pici> I think we sorted out some of the op stuff the other day.
<h00k> cool.
<AlanBell> ok, lets deal with the specific points oCean raised in this topic
<AlanBell> 1) don't shut down support questions, just suggest a regular support chan might be more appropriate
<oCean>  just suggest *that*
<AlanBell> 2) don't support banned users in -ot (which is a sensible exception/enhancement to #1)
<bazhang> including crossposting?
<oCean> bazhang: crossposting should be avoided
<bazhang> I post in #ubuntu , wait 2 mins, then to -ot
<Pici> I think the only time where it is reasonable for support to be answered in -ot is when a user casually mentions some annoyance and someone has an idea to fix it.
<bazhang> there are often jokey answers when support is asked in -ot
<tsimpson> well "support" is such a wide subject that it's difficult to simply say "no support questions"
<AlanBell> I am struggling to figure out what change is being requested here, it seems like a request for a common sense approach
<Tm_T> AlanBell: that, there's currently no common sense applied consistently as far as I can see
<Tm_T> "no support" is slapped hardhandedly occasionally
<oCean> there is actually support in -ot, for example on subjects which are offtopic for #u, but as soon as someone asks an ubuntu question, we jump on him saying "don't ask support here"
<Tm_T> oCean: yeah, soft redirect is better approach when its reasonable in the first place
<oCean> I'll say after LjL "let the people there NICELY suggest "have you tried asking in #ubuntu?", let's enforce a stricter "no repeating"
<AlanBell> maybe this should be something added to the supporters guide, what to do if someone asks a question in the wrong channel
<ikonia> oCean but there also has to be common sense the other way
<ikonia> oCean: users like bullgard who just don't want to play by the rules use -offtopic as #ubuntu
<ikonia> I have no issue with support discussion in #ubuntu-offtopic, it would be a welcome uplift from random stuff
<phillw> whilst we are the new kids on the block, maybe some thing like Welcome to the general chat area | Please use #lubuntu for support | ?
<ikonia> but I think if we have a support channel, guiding users to it for support is the better option for proper "I need help" issues
<oCean> ikonia: true. We should be stricter, especially with such users
<AlanBell> oCean: perhaps you could add some bits to the guide advising helpers how to deal with support requests in offtopic channels
<ikonia> oCean: a better balance to actually help support discussion, while "questions" or specific issues can be guided to the support channel
<oCean> AlanBell: fine with me
<AlanBell> are there any factoids that might need changing?
<Myrtti> 90 minutes mark btw
<Tm_T> Myrtti: halfway then (:
<ikonia> what's the point of having a support channel to use offtopic and an offtopic channel to not do support, to be asked support questions
<AlanBell> #action oCean to edit the guide to add advice on support questions in -offtopic
<meetingology> ACTION: oCean to edit the guide to add advice on support questions in -offtopic
<AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, I am aware, the last bits won't take long at all
<Myrtti> AlanBell: I know you are aware, just reminding others ;-)
<AlanBell> ok, next item we have already addressed
<tsimpson> hmm, actually there probably should be a "Support questions in #ubuntu" in the -ot topic
<AlanBell> #topic Ops applications from existing ops - Alan Bell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ops applications from existing ops - Alan Bell
<tsimpson> I though it was there, but apparently not
<AlanBell> we are going to deal with that, moving straight on
<AlanBell> #topic Supporters Guide document - Alan Bell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Supporters Guide document - Alan Bell
<ikonia> tsimpson: I'll fix now
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/SupportersGuide
<AlanBell> we put this together this week, still accepting edits and improvements, an email went to the list about it
<phillw> an excellent resource. thanks for making it.
<oCean> ikonia, tsimpson we might consider the wording, since "support in #u" does shut down the possibility for a question in -ot
<AlanBell> I think a factoid pointing at it would be a good idea, we can try and come up with one later (not right now)
<LjL> yeah
<LjL> the #ubuntu-offtopic topic already had "non-support" in it
<LjL> why the need for this stronger wording
<ikonia> oCean: check topic now
<LjL> when many are saying here we should have all BUT a stronger thing against support there
<AlanBell> and we should probably blog about the supporters guide so planet readers see it (yes jussi, I know)
<oCean> ikonia: I saw it, fine with me now
<AlanBell> thanks ikonia :)
<ikonia> LjL: hopefully nothing too harsh in there now, just a little more clarify ?
<AlanBell> ok, thats all I want to say on the supporters guide for now
<ikonia> clarity even
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
<LjL> Whatever
<AlanBell> does anyone have any other burning topics (I know we are over time)
<Myrtti> I'm still writing the ops guide...
<Myrtti> brain turns into mush.
<Tm_T> I had something in mind, but as usual, have forgotten it already /:
<Pici> I think we'll need to go back and discuss some of these other issues at a later time, but that was rather obvious anyway.
<AlanBell> Myrtti: can we decide a date (I don't want you spending too much time on it)
<LjL> ikonia: so now let's expect some people to say "NO GO AWAY SUPPORT IN #ubuntu" even louder than before.
<ikonia> LjL: hopefully not
<LjL> *shrug*
<Pici> We'll face that when we see it.
<Tm_T> LjL: "support questions might be better served in #u" ...lenghty one but softer tone /:
<Myrtti> AlanBell: you're allowed to kick me about it on Wednesday, if I'm not done by then, I give up and let someone else continue on writing it.
<Myrtti> it's in Etherpad and I'll toss the link around for a selected few then
<Myrtti> either way
<AlanBell> can't possibly kick you, but will tickle you on wednesday :)
<Tm_T> Myrtti: let me know if you need any help
<AlanBell> ok, any more . . .
<Myrtti> Tm_T: you I might poke with the URL in the next half hour
<Tm_T> (:)
<AlanBell> next meeting will be on a week day evening in a couple of weeks
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Feb 26 19:41:15 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-26-18.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-26-18.03.html
<AlanBell> thanks all, sorry it was a bit long :)
<phillw> Thanks for chairing AlanBell
<ikonia> I'd rather it was long for an actual discussion that cutting things off
<phillw> ikonia: +1
<funkyHat> Thanks everyone
<Silverlion> thx Alan
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-18
<RZAFC> can someone help?
<RZAFC> <RZAFC> I can't compile c program in gcc
<Quintasan> RZAFC: go to #ubuntu
<RZAFC> ok
<zyga> brendand: is there a friendly meeting here?
<brendand> zyga, i haven't seen one
<roadmr> not sure what happened :/
<roadmr> cprofitt may know something :)
<roadmr> brendand, zyga : I'm an idiot, the UF meeting is scheduled for *tomorrow* :(
<zyga> roadmr: hehe
<brendand> roadmr, off by one (day) error
<brendand> happens all the time
 * stgraber waves
<pitti> hello
<soren> o/
<pitti> kees and mdz sent apologies
<pitti> cjwatson, stgraber: here?
<soren> 20:59  * stgraber waves
<soren> 20:59 -!- pitti [~pitti@www.piware.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> hi
<soren> Just missed it :)
<pitti> ah :)
<soren> Who's chairing today?
<cjwatson> I was last
<cjwatson> So I think pitti is next in rotation
<pitti> oh, ok
<pitti> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb 18 21:07:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pitti> #topic action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
<pitti> (sorry, didn't prepare; wiki said kees)
<pitti> no actions that I can see at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard/TeamReports
<cjwatson> There was one for me to update the SRU page
<pitti> #topic Flavor of UbuntuKylin
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Flavor of UbuntuKylin
<cjwatson> Which I did
<pitti> oh, I saw that
<pitti> right
<pitti> JackYu: are you here?
<JackYu> Hi, I am Jack from UbuntuKylin team
 * pitti was reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuKylin in the meantime
<JackYu> Yes, pitti:)
<pitti> JackYu: we have had http://china-images.ubuntu.com/ for some time now, but it's fairly undermaintained from what I know; are you aware of this?
<stgraber> wiki doc for new flavours is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecognizedFlavors
<cjwatson> pitti: (Foundations would like Kylin to supersede china-images)
<pitti> JackYu: i. e. is this meant to continue this project, or a completely separate effort?
 * soren had never heard of china-images
<pitti> ah, so this will use/change/extend the existing customizations and build machinery?
<JackYu> Pitti: no, it's a new.
<cjwatson> pitti: I wouldn't expect so
<soren> JackYu: The wiki page speaks about goals. What is the current state?
<cjwatson> china-images more or less works if you basically have nobody maintaining it
<cjwatson> That system isn't so good for a full-fledged flavour
<cjwatson> The one thing that concerns me in that is the "System Assistant" item - that's the sort of thing that I would say should be done as part of core Ubuntu rather than a flavour, even if it's implemented by Kylin developers (and you should be aware of the previous attempt at something like this, Computer Janitor, which has been removed and we reckon that any subsequent attempt should probably live in Software Center)
<pitti> indeed
<pitti> I'm also a bit sceptical about fctix, that's something I'd like to discuss
<cjwatson> There's no reason why that kind of tool ought to be specific to a locale or a region of the world
<cjwatson> Or particularly customised for it
<pitti> and "photo handling" also isn't China specific
<cjwatson> Right, so worth splitting this out into things that are specific to your flavour, and general problems in the wider Ubuntu project that your developers would like to work on
<cjwatson> Both are definitely welcome, but we should only consider the former to be part of UbuntuKylin IMO
<soren> JackYu: Just to be clear: These things may be great improvements, they're just..
<JackYu> cjwatson: Yes, it should be in Ubuntu, not only for a flavor.
<soren> Right, what cjwatson just said :)
<pitti> JackYu: do you have a set of proposals and topics for the meeting, or should we just go through one by one?
<pitti> ok, so let's just do that then
<pitti> = Online Music Search on Dash =
<pitti> that's just changing the searched providers, not changing the client?
<JackYu> soren: we have finished the goals in UbuntuKyli13.04. packages are in Ubuntu Archive.
<pitti> AFAIK this is already country specific, so that sounds straightforward
<soren> JackYu: Oh, excellent.
<JackYu> pitti: I have sent an email to your maillist...
<pitti> I didn't see it yuet
<soren> Perhaps stuck in the moderation queue?
<pitti> ah, I moderated it now
<pitti> JackYu: so is the music search changing the searched servers only, or also the GUI?
<JackYu> Pitti: we add a scope to searching Baidu music. Yes, only servers
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> calendar and weather indicator seem straightforward to me, any questions anyone?
<pitti> = input method =
<JackYu> Another PM of this team, Anthony from Canonical, is online. He will join:)
<pitti> JackYu: why are you using fcitx, OOI? Ubuntu, GNOME, etc. all use ibus
<pitti> this seems to be a rather large diversion
<JackYu> fcitx is good at Chinese input, as we tested.
<JackYu> It provides better intelligent association
<pitti> I'm asking because unlike ibus that doesn't have any GUI configuration support in e. g. control-center or the indicator, as these all talk to ibus
<pitti> if (and that may well be the case), fcitx is indeed better than sunpinyin or googlepinyin, then IMHO that should become the default in regular Ubuntu as well, but that should be discussed with e. g. GNOME and the desktop team
<pitti> JackYu: perhaps you can update the wiki page with the pros and cons, and how that affects configuration, indicators, the language selector, and so on?
<ypwong> pitti, for gui, I think JackYu plans to do that for fcitx post 13.04
<ypwong> agree to put the pros and cons on wiki, action for JackYu
<JackYu> Yes, we are going to do some work on fcitx.
<pitti> #action JackYu to document reasons for switching to fcitx, and impact on control center, indicators, application support
<meetingology> ACTION: JackYu to document reasons for switching to fcitx, and impact on control center, indicators, application support
<JackYu> pitti: OK, thanks.
<pitti> JackYu: also, please note that just like fcitx, ibus also has several modules such as various pinyin flavours; they changed several times in the past, but they all use the common ibus API for configuration and switching between them
<pitti> = WPS =
<pitti> that sounds like "MS Works", is it really that, or something different?
<pitti> i. e. you're not using LibreOffice?
<JackYu> It is a Chinese office tools
<ypwong> pitti, it's a complete office suite, but proprietary
<JackYu> by Kingsoft Corp. of China
<cjwatson> So this is interoperability with it, rather than shipping it?
<pitti> ypwong: i. e. you want to ship import/export filters for LibO, or provide a WPS installer and drop LibO?
<ypwong> there's talks with the company to put it on software center
<pitti> I think this could also be clarified on the wiki
<cjwatson> I really question shipping proprietary software as the preferred option (even via an installer) in a recognised Ubuntu flavour
<cjwatson> Even if it's the preferred local option, it dilutes the Ubuntu brand rather badly
<cjwatson> If it's not presented as the preferred option I'm not so concerned
<pitti> yeah, same here; we still present Ubuntu as "all free software"
<pitti> s/still//
<JackYu> There is a link on desktop to download WPS, not pre-installed.
<ypwong> we are thinking it's like suggesting codecs or binary drivers vs free ones in ubuntu
<cjwatson> It's not - drivers occupy an explicitly different status
<pitti> no, it's not like drivers
<cjwatson> We have always treated proprietary applications quite differently
<pitti> drivers allow you to use free software/ubuntu at all
<pitti> I think it's fine to add it to SC for easy installation, we do that with plenty of software; but I feel that presenting it as something which most users will just click anyway is the wrong direction
<ypwong> LibO won't be dropped, it should still be installed by default in ubuntukylin 13.04. JackYu am I correct?
<cjwatson> TBH having a link on the desktop is something of a concern to me as well.  I don't think we necessarily need to resolve it in this meeting, but I'd like to feel confident that the people running a new flavour share our general position on free software
<JackYu> Yes, LibO is default.
<cjwatson> We don't want to position Ubuntu as just a cheap way to get hold of proprietary software - it's meant to be a quality product in itself and I think our flavours should be proud of the free software in the archive
<cjwatson> If you see what I mean
<cjwatson> (Agreed regarding adding things to Software Center for easy installation)
<JackYu> cjwatson: Yes, I got.
<pitti> as for the other points, we already discussed the system assistant, same with photo handling
<cjwatson> Then let's make sure its status is clear in UbuntuKylin documentation too - I didn't get the proprietary bit at all from the wiki page
<pitti> the other points seem like genuine localization to me; opinions?
<cjwatson> Me too
<pitti> ACTION: JackYu to clarify on the wiki page what WPS is and how it's going to be integrated
<pitti> JackYu: ^ sounds ok?
<JackYu> sure.
<pitti> JackYu: for the record, we were picking on the unclear bits, which might have sounded a bit negative; thanks for working on this project, it's really quite appreciated that some actual Chinese developers are taking this up!
<cjwatson> Yeah, the existing images have mostly been maintained by non-Chinese people, which is ... not ideal
<JackYu> Thanks your suggestions:)
<pitti> ypwong, JackYu, soren, stgraber: do you see anything else which we need to discuss still?
<cjwatson> And I agree that the customary facilities people in China expect to be available in their OS appear to be sufficiently divergent from what we ship elsewhere that it's worth a separate flavour
<soren> pitti: No, I think this is good for now.
<stgraber> pitti: well, I think we ought to go through the current requirements for flavours and decide whether we make an exception for this one and if so, set some conditions around that
<cjwatson> I have a latent concern about the possibility of lots of localised flavours and scaling problems arising from that - but TBH China appears to be the most complex and divergent case and I'm not seeing the same pressures elsehere
<JackYu> The default-settings and theme packages are also prepared.
<cjwatson> There are a few things still in NEW
<cjwatson> But that's not your fault :-)
<ypwong> cjwatson, good that you see the point of this flavor :)
<ypwong> cjwatson, yes, the default-settings still in NEW
<stgraber> I definitely apprecaite having someone work on the Chinese images and getting that rolling as a real flavour, however as far as I can tell, none of the people in this meeting are Ubuntu members, none of which have upload rights and most of which haven't even signed the CoC
<pitti> stgraber: I'm still not quite clear about fcitx vs. ibus, and I'm assuming that the WPS situation will be clarified; do you see other major exceptions from the general understanding of what a localized flavour is?
<stgraber> so I guess I want to discuss who's going to be responsible for the flavour
<stgraber> if that's Canonical Foundations through slangasek, I'm happy with it, if not, I can't +1 this in its current state
<pitti> stgraber: oh, you mean the community structure, not the technical aspects?
<stgraber> righ
<stgraber> *right
<pitti> my gut feeling is that membership needs to come during doing actual work on Kylin here
<cjwatson> slangasek has expressed to me (er, [1] personal communication) a general willingness to see this through and a request for Foundations to generally help out
<stgraber> I perfectly agree with what was said earlier as to what should be included in the flavour and I definitely agree with the goal behind the flavour. I'm just concerned about who will be responsible for it
<cjwatson> I do think you absolutely ought to be aiming for at least two developers with upload rights on their own behalf
<pitti> past experience didn't show that maintaining the Chinese flavour from the existing ~ubuntu-dev team has worked well
<cjwatson> I think this is the first new flavour since we wrote/approved RecognizedFlavours?
<stgraber> what the TB and canonical agreed on for flavours was that leading members would need to have the CoC signed, one or more developers have upload rights, show 6 months activity and have a QA contact
<cjwatson> I'd suggest that we ought to start by ensuring that the criteria from "Guidelines to have an image added to the dailies" are met, and that "Guidelines to become and remain a recognized flavor" are on track
<stgraber> cjwatson: I think so, yes, we used the document to approve LTS status but not to approve new flavours
<cjwatson> (It's a bit unclear, reading it in this light)
<pitti> signing the CoC is certainly something that can be done quickly at leats?
<pitti> least
<cjwatson> But you clearly can't establish a "track record" until you've been going for a while
<stgraber> so I'm generally happy to ignore some of those conditions on the basis that the Foundations team will be responsible for the flavour and that this responsability will be transferred to a separate Kylin team once they meet the criteria
<pitti> stgraber: I understand "responsible" in the sense of mentoring and perhaps sponsoring here?
<JackYu> Stgraber: It seems that Members from NUDT have signed the CoC.
<stgraber> pitti: right, mentoring, help with release management and sponsoring
<cjwatson> I think we can check off most of the "dailies" items; 1) is what we're talking about now, 2) is underway, 3) means that JackYu and ypwong should ensure that some appropriate team is subscribed to bugs on all the relevant packages, 4) I can say that we have plenty of image publishing space right now without needing to explicitly check with IS, 5) that can be somebody from Foundations and I can check up with slangasek on ...
<cjwatson> ... it tomorrow, 6) ...
<stgraber> pitti: then in 6 months (to meet the time criteria), we can re-evaluate and then have the Kylin team be fully responsible for it assuming they have enough uploaders, QA, release contact people by then familiar with our processes
<cjwatson> "Community member lined up to test image and provide feedback at milestones"  what do NUDT/UbuntuKylin's QA plans look like?
<pitti> sorry, what is NUDT?
<stgraber> hehe, was about to ask the same question ;)
<pitti> stgraber: sounds good to me, too
<pitti> (trying to pronounce the acronym really doesn't help clarifying..)
<ypwong> let me describe what has been done so far: we've been talking with JackYu for several months about this flavour idea, now JackYu's and his team do the coding, seb128/slangasek/et al helped reviewed their work and upload them
<cjwatson> National University of Defense Technology, says google
<pitti> ok, we have to hurry up a bi
<ypwong> cjwatson, right, JackYu's team mostly from the university
<pitti> t
<stgraber> JackYu: you didn't sign it according to Launchpad, which is a bit troubling for someone who wants to become a flavour lead ;)
 * stgraber checks that LP isn't lying
<pitti> JackYu, ypwong: can we review this again in two weeks, when we have above clarifications, CoC signed, etc?
<JackYu> Oh, if not, I will do it soon.
<pitti> ACTION: JackYu and ypwong to sort out CoC signing
<pitti> JackYu, ypwong: thanks for attending!
<ypwong> pitti, I'm ok with that, how about you, JackYu?
<JackYu> OK. Thank you.
<cjwatson> JackYu: If you folks haven't already been discussing daily building of images with slangasek, feel free to do so with me
<pitti> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<pitti> # topic SRU Minor Release Exception for Ceph
<cjwatson> (Perhaps at a more sociable time for both of us, if I'm guessing your timezone correctly)
<pitti> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-February/001475.html
<pitti> can we move this to email?
<JackYu> cjwatson: Sure. Thanks.
<cjwatson> pitti: I will confess I haven't really absorbed that one yet
<pitti> reviewing the details of this will be too tight for the remaining 3 mins, I think; or did someone already?
<stgraber> I guess I'll be talking with slangasek on whether he'd be happy to be a temporary flavour lead for Kylin (or have Foundations do that) until they are familiar enough with everything and have upload rights to do all that themselves
<pitti> ok, so let's move that to mail
<pitti> nothing else on the ML that I can see
<pitti> #topic chair for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: chair for next meeting
<pitti> continuing with kees
<pitti> ?
<pitti> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<pitti> anyone?
<stgraber> yeah, I guess we can continue with kees, mdz then skip you (if we remember ;))
<pitti> 10 secs
 * pitti rings the bell, thanks everyone!
<cjwatson> thanks!
<stgraber> pitti: thanks for chairing!
<soren> ta
<soren> o/
<ypwong> thanks everyone
 * ypwong goes back to bed
<pitti> bonne nuit tout le monde
<stgraber> pitti: bonne nuit
<JackYu> Thanks, all. goes back to bed too:)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-19
<xnox> interesting meeting =)
<freeflying> I missed it :)
 * smartboyhw wonders why the topic is AOB....
<ogra_> likely because someone forgot to close their meeting
<soren> That would be pitti.
<smartboyhw> oops
<ogra_> yeah, the backlog says so
<soren> I've just poked him about it.
<soren> #endmeeting
<soren> Yeah, he has to do it.
<soren> Was worth a try, though :)
<xnox> #endmeeting
 * xnox failed at highjacking pitti's nickname
<smartboyhw> Eh doesn't work:P
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 19 13:19:23 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-18-21.07.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-18-21.07.html
<smartboyhw> Clap Clap Clap
<pitti> sorry about that
<pitti> longest TB meeting EVAR
<soren> No harm done.
<smartboyhw> :)
<soren> smartboyhw just wodered why the topic said "AOB".
<smartboyhw> soren, Any Other Business
<soren> Sure, I know.
<ogra_> now you know twice ;)
<smartboyhw> lol
<ogra_> soren, its like counters on websites ... twice is better ;)
<AlanBell> fwiw anyone with a member cloak can op up in this channel and it listens to operators as if they were chair
<AlanBell> so you can get ops by /msg chanserv op #ubuntu-meeting and then #endmeeting even if it wasn't your meeting to end
<AlanBell> soren: ogra_ xnox ^^
<xnox> awesome.
<jamespage> o/
<m_3> hola
<yolanda> hi
 * Daviey has to offer his apologies, clashing event.
<Daviey> smoser: chairing?
<arosales> hello
<smoser> i can chair.
<smoser> sorry.
<smoser> here now.
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 19 16:06:13 2013 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
 * smoser looks for logs to get action items
<smoser> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-12-16.01.html
<smoser> Daviey, you're listed there as send request for testing
<smoser> did we send? i dont think so.
<Daviey> smoser: sort of "no".
<smoser> we did release a alpha-2 cloud images . (http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/releases/13.04/alpha-2/)
<smoser> hm...
<smoser> ok, so we'll re-action that? i really do think we should make an effort there.
<Daviey> +1
<smoser> #ACTION Daviey send call for alpha-2-ish testing
<meetingology> ACTION: Daviey send call for alpha-2-ish testing
<smoser>     ACTION: jamespage to milesone documentation updates (zul, 16:38:45)
<smoser> jamespage, ^
<jamespage> not done yet
<smoser> #ACTION: jamespage to milesone documentation updates [carryover]
<meetingology> ACTION: : jamespage to milesone documentation updates [carryover]
<smoser> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Raring Development
<smoser> release tracking: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<jamespage> action was actually to ensure that any doc updates in BP's are milestoned appropriatly
<smoser> jamespage, ah. ok. do you need help there?
<smoser> ok. so release tracking link up there. maas is the biggest thing. and the qemu-kvm.
<smoser> hallyn, do you have a handle on the qemu-kvm bug ?
<jamespage> smoser, nah - its OK - I'll do it
<smoser> bug 1092715	
<ubottu> bug 1092715 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Raring) "udevadm trigger --action=change not working in quantal and raring" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1092715
<jamespage> that one is killing me slowly
<hallyn> smoser: yes, i just need to talk to pitti again
<hallyn> smoser: there is a real bug in udev,
<smoser> hallyn, please do... that is a real pain
<hallyn> but i want to just work around it
 * smoser is tired of 'chmod 666 /dev/kvm' 
<hallyn> all right, i'll talk to him today or tomorrow
<hallyn> (depending on his tz)
<jamespage> lol
<smoser> roaksoax, maas and release tracking ?
<smoser> err... sru. i think we're nearing it.
<smoser> hm.. we'll maybe come back to that.
<roaksoax> smoser: well, bigjools had to adapt a patch to django so that it would be done in the maas side instead. But since I just learned he is with leave... then we'll have to ping someone else on the MAAS team
<roaksoax> s/to django/for django/
<smoser> roaksoax, ok. please do follow up there. i'm sure we can find someone on maas team to accomplish.
<smoser> blueprints: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html
<roaksoax> smoser: other than that, is merging the latest fixes we have left for it
<smoser> please just be responsible with your blueprints. try to get them into a state that reflects where they actually are, remember that feature freeze is coming up, and ping jamespage, daviey, or I if you are concerned about their status.
<smoser> release schedule at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule . feature freeze is March 7.
<smoser> #Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anyone have anything here ?
<smoser> i think that jcastro is going to scale this week.
<smoser> http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/
<smoser> and talking ther eabout juju.
<smoser> anyone have anything else ?
<smoser> ok. moving on.
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<smoser> this topic should probably be up for consideration on removal. doesn't seem to have been very busy recently.
<smoser> moving on
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Finally tracked down an elusive Xen bug that was paining Precise
<smb> but potentially lurked around till now. That is currently going
<smb> upstream and then back (bug 1011792).
<smb> Not sure I got more beside my struggles with libvirt. ;-P Any
<smb> questions?
<ubottu> bug 1011792 in linux-lts-backport-oneiric (Ubuntu) "Kernel lockup running 3.0.0 and 3.2.0 on multiple EC2 instance types" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1011792
<smb> ..
<smoser> smb, i would love for you to fix my interest in providing 'console=ttyS0' everywhere on command lines and have that not screw things up when there is not ttyS0
<smoser> most recently causing issues at 1122245
<smb> smoser, I could imagine our method of fixing your interest might be incompatible...
<hallyn> put the bat away....
<smb> :)
<smb> The problem seemed that the kernel itself has no issue... it is hard to tell user-space what to use...
<smoser> smb, well, any ways i dream of fixing it from user-space are basically doomed.
<smoser> as the kernel has this nice buffer on writes to /dev/console
<smoser> so things work for a while, and then randomly faily.
<smoser> so, its really toufh to come up with a way that user space could "fix" the situation  or work around it.
<smoser> so, my request is really that you just try to think of a way that writes to /dev/console could never fail.
<smb> smoser, I try to think on it. Though not promising too much
<smoser> k
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<smoser> (smb, thank you for being prepared for your section).
<smoser> rbasak not present, moving on.
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<smoser> o. i have one topic here, that is "QA".
<smoser> in 2 repsects
<smoser> a.) should we change/remove/update that section of our meeting ? it seems not to have much in it.
<smoser> b.) are we having a call for testing, and what should that mean ? what manual tests do we have around still ? what things should we ask people to test?
<smoser> anyone have comments on that? i'm largely talking to myself today.
<jamespage> most 'ISO' tests are now automated
<jamespage> if we where going to call for testing I would think two things would be good
<jamespage> 1) write dep-8 tests - we have a big list
<jamespage> 2) exercise stuff off-piste - generalist testing
<roaksoax> I think 1) makes lots of sense
<roaksoax> to get the community engadged
<hallyn> should we invite gema for this section?
<hallyn> or have jamespage represent?
<roaksoax> jamespage: represent!!
<jamespage> hallyn, tbh some of the reason the dep-8 bp is going nowhere is that I'm focussed elsewhere
<roaksoax> :)
<hallyn> jamespage: perhaps we should be discussing that
<arosales> smoser: m_3 will also join jcastro at scale11x this week.
<hallyn> though of course, i doubt we'll find anyone not swamped right now
<m_3> yeah, wasn't gonna correct anything
<hallyn> but maybe the bp needs a team of 2-3 ppl
<jamespage> yeah - its just down the priority list
<smoser> ok. so in our "requeest for testing" we should generally ask people to test either ISO or cloud images and try to accomplish their generic specific work loads.
<jamespage> hallyn, I think its a good point - if we are going to move to a rolling release inbetween LTS releases of server then knowing when stuff is bust is really importnat
<smoser> hoping to have things fallout that are not found in our testing. and also request that if they are able to add dep-8 tests, that'd be wonderful.
<jamespage> smoser, I think that would be great!
<m_3> should we add in requests for charm testing (i.e., /tests dir in each charm)?
<m_3> or is that best left separate?
<smoser> i would leave that out of "Ubuntu server raring call for testing", m_3.
<smoser> i dont think begging for such things is bad, but just that it doesn't fit there.
<m_3> ack
<smoser> jamespage, so do you think we should move you to the name in '()' for qa section ?
<jamespage> smoser, no - I want direct engagement with the QA team in this meeting
<jamespage> its been lacking and I think we a suffering for it
<smoser> ok. so can you take an action there ? or do you want me to draft a mail requesting participation
<jamespage> smoser, but I'll take an action to go discuss with gemma
<smoser> #action jamespage discuss QA representation at Server TeamMeeting
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage discuss QA representation at Server TeamMeeting
<smoser> i'm going to #endmeeting if noone has any objections?
<roaksoax> i do
<roaksoax> have something to bring up
<roaksoax> I've been considering dropping HA support for OCFS2 with pacemaker/corosync. The soon to be released pacemaker 1.1.9 has improved performance for large clusters (up to 16 node clusters). However, this requires corosync 2.X. Upgrading would mean dropping the support for OCFS2 in Pacemaker/Corosync because OCFS upstream has not updated its code to support the changes that have been made on the corosync side. From [1], we currently support Option 
<roaksoax> [1]: http://theclusterguy.clusterlabs.org/post/34604901720/pacemaker-and-cluster-filesystems
<smoser> roaksoax, i suggest raising on ubuntu-server and ubuntu-cloud
<roaksoax> smoser: ack!
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<smoser> next meeting is same time, same place, 7 days from now.
<smoser>  Tuesday 2013-02-26 at 1600 UTC
<smoser> chair will be the honorable hallyn.
<arosales> smoser: thanks for chairing
<smoser> #endmeeting.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 19 16:41:40 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-19-16.06.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-19-16.06.html
<jamespage> thanks smoser!
<Daviey> thanks smoser
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 19 17:00:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<cking> \o
<henrix> o/
<smb> \o
<bjf> o/
<sconklin> o/
<sforshee> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report this week
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-delta-review               || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-r-secure-boot             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-r-aarch64                 || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-arm-kernel-maintenance     || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-r-kernel-misc                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || servercloud-r-libvirt                 || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || servercloud-r-xen                     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg       || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> The above summarizes the remaining work items owned by individuals on
<ogasawara> our team for the rest of the 13.04 cycle.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased the Raring kernel to the final upstream v3.8 release and
<ogasawara> uploaded.  We also made a few misc config changes and added some i915
<ogasawara> fixes.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Raring:
<ogasawara>   * Thurs Mar 07 - 13.04 Feature Freeze
<ogasawara>   * Thurs Mar 21 - 13.04 Beta Freeze
<ogasawara>   * Thurs Mar 28 - 13.04 Beta Release
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<henrix> Currently we have 30 CVEs on our radar, with 2 CVEs added and 3 CVEs retired this week.
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Due to an high priority CVE, all the stable kernels are being respined this week.
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> Note: The week of March 28 is the week the last Hardy and Oneiric kernels will be built.
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 19 17:05:06 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-19-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-19-17.00.html
<cprofitt> is anyone here for the Ubuntu Friendly meeting?
<vibhav> cproffit: o/
<SergioMeneses> cprofitt, o/
<SergioMeneses> cprofitt, vibhav I think we can tall by mailing list
<vibhav> Sure
<cprofitt> hey vibhav
<cprofitt> good to see you
<vibhav> :)
<cprofitt> we are in #ubuntu-quality right now if you want to join us there
<vibhav> Sure
<cprofitt> sorry that the meeting did not get off the ground this time around
<notgary> Anyone here?
<notgary> Anyone here?
<druellan> Hi Chris
<notgary> Hey Dario, how's it going?
<druellan> Fine, but I've just got back from my holidays, and my clients are killing me with emails :P
<notgary> Sounds like a whole load of fun :)
<notgary> Is anyone else in here for the paper cuts meeting?
<notgary> druellan: guess it's just you and me tonight :)
<druellan> Haha, oh well
 * BobJonkman is lurking
<notgary> #startmeeting One Hundred Paper Cuts meeting for 19th Feb 2013
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 19 19:05:51 2013 UTC.  The chair is notgary. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | One Hundred Paper Cuts meeting for 19th Feb 2013 Meeting | Current topic:
<notgary> BobJonkman: The lurk away my friend. If you have anything to say, then just go ahead and say it. don;t worry about interrupting
<BobJonkman> notgary: Thanx!
<notgary> #meetingtopic Review of previous meeting minutes
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Review of previous meeting minutes Meeting | Current topic:
<notgary> #meetingtopic One Hundred Paper Cuts meeting for 19th Feb 2013
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | One Hundred Paper Cuts meeting for 19th Feb 2013 Meeting | Current topic:
<notgary> #topic Review of previous meeting minutes
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | One Hundred Paper Cuts meeting for 19th Feb 2013 Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous meeting minutes
<notgary> That's better
<notgary> The agenda for this meeting can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneHundredPaperCuts/Meetings/19Feb2013
<notgary> Item 1, review of the last meetings minutes
<notgary> which can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneHundredPaperCuts/Meetings/24Jan2013#Outcome
<notgary> The first relevant part was Developer week
<druellan> OH, I'm still supposed to talk about all thouse items?
<notgary> Yep
<notgary> they're on this weeks agenda though
<notgary> so don't worry
<druellan> No problem, carry on.
<notgary> the original plan for Developer Week was to produce a couple of videos
<notgary> One showing the user how to download and build the source for Rhythmbox
<notgary> and another doing the same for Unity
<notgary> Neither were done :P
<notgary> which is what I was supposed to do.
<notgary> :P
<notgary> I'm going to put them off for the Global Jam next weekend
<notgary> and try and get a Google+ Hanhout going with Jose, so people can watch them in real time and ask questions
<druellan> Ubuntu communty on G+ is getting some traction now
<notgary> We also decided we needed a more coherent strategy for attractting new contributors
<notgary> I've noticed
<notgary> :P
<notgary> G+ seems to be setting some as well
<notgary> but I digress :P
<notgary> I had planned to reach out to Daniel Holbach to discuss some new ideas for getting people interested in contributing to Ubuntu, which I didm;t get round to doing
<notgary> Jeez I'm bad at getting things done :P
<notgary> The next item we decided on was to hold regular meetings
<notgary> We didm;t do so well for the couple of weeks after that one, but hopefully this one we're in now will be the start of a new dawn for paper cuts meetings :)
<druellan> well, about the per week meetings
<notgary> Shoot
<druellan> its good if you need to quickly be in touch with people
<druellan> but is hard to promote, I mean, if you have a meeting too often you loose some traction
<notgary> how so?
<druellan> sorry, phone
<notgary> What do you mean by 'lose some traction'? Do you think people will lose interest if we have too many meetings?
<notgary> druellan: you still there?
<druellan> I'm here, sorry. Yes, I believe that cen be the case, but we can use the current schedule to prove me wrong
<cprofitt> notgary: this is focused on papercuts?
<notgary> cprofitt: yep
 * cprofitt nods
<notgary> I'd taken the idea from the weekly meetings the kernel and desktop team were having
<notgary> thinking it might be good for us too
<cprofitt> I think regular meetings help keep a team focused
<notgary> that was my thinking
<cprofitt> but regular does not have to be a every week or every other week
<cprofitt> irc meetings can cause some to feel they are losing touch with the team if they can not make meetings
<druellan> Yes, I have the feeling that per week maybe can be too often
<cprofitt> with the timezone issue that is often a fact of life
<druellan> since a papercutter is more a hobbyst than a regular contrbutor
<cprofitt> I think ensuring that you summarize the meetings on the mailing list and the wiki helps avoid that
<cprofitt> but with one team I was on decision were made in meetings via vote
<cprofitt> and some people became frustrated because they were never able to vote
<notgary> I wanted to use the meetings as a place where team members would come together in real time, and where new contributors could come in and speak with them. Perhaps a better idea than a single hour long meeting each week could be "On tuesday's between 6pm and 10pm you're guaranteed to find paper cutters on IRC. Come talk to them"
<notgary> So it;s  a lot less formal
<cprofitt> notgary: I think that is an excellent idea
<cprofitt> not so much a meeting, but a 'work' session
<druellan> cprofitt: well, a meeting per two week or per mounth you get sure you make the time to assits, per week is usually more difficult if you're bussy or your timezone
<cprofitt> perhaps extend that to having team members be able to fill time slots
<cprofitt> that would allow people in different TZs to mentor too
<notgary> Great idea
<notgary> Shall we vote on it, since it might be our last meeting for a while :P
<cprofitt> your team is one I have wanted to get involved with for a while, but the three children keep be busy
<notgary> Excellent. Well I hope you manage to find some time. Even just an hour a week can make a world of difference
<notgary> Anyway
<notgary> Lets move onto this weeks agenda
<notgary> #topic what are we working on
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | One Hundred Paper Cuts meeting for 19th Feb 2013 Meeting | Current topic:  what are we working on
<notgary> One thing I've learned from my job is that it's very useful for team members to briefly tell each other what they're working on and what problems they're currently facing with the task
<notgary> And I'd like to try that out here
<notgary> I'll go first
<notgary> I'm currently putting together ideas for some events during the global Jam next weekend
<notgary> I've left it too late to organise a physical event
<notgary> So I'm going to host it in IRC this time round
<notgary> It'll run along two tracks
<notgary> Bug triage and development tutorials
<notgary> Those videos I mentioned earlier, about how to build some of the packages
<notgary> Will be reorded then
<notgary> *recorded
<notgary> I also want to try and get some people together and trawl through the backlog of bugs on some of the core GTK+ packages
<notgary> and try and touch as many of them as possible, forwarding relevant ones to the paper cuts team in the process
<notgary> Not really got a lot of problems with it so far
<notgary> druellan: over to you
<druellan> Well, I was trying to get into a meeting :P
<notgary> :)
<druellan> To expose the topics I posted on the wiki
<notgary> You mean the ones you were going to discuss last time?
<druellan> Basically, since I was away on holidays, somehow disconnected
<druellan> I found diffucult to understand what was going on in here, so, thats way I proposed this topics to discuss
<notgary> Would you prefer to discuss them outside of the meeting, such as on the mailing list or IRC?
<notgary> It seems like you're having some connection issues.
<druellan> Yes, sorry I'm a bit complicated right now
<notgary> No worries mate
<druellan> I send a mail to you and the ninja list explaining some of the ideas
<notgary> Cool
<druellan> If you like I can try to quickly explain them here
<druellan> (if I remember all of them :p)
<notgary> The wiki: the landing page.
<notgary> Impressions about the new wiki organization.
<notgary> The new Dojo.
<notgary> Whats everybody doing right now? Milestones and crowdfixing bugs.
<notgary> Papercuts Ninjas: to fix, to triage or both (why I need to be a ninja)?
<notgary> Papercutters superninjas?
<notgary> thats what you posted to the wiki agenda
<notgary> Wow, seems like there was some kind of collision there
<druellan> Yes, half of them I don't remember whats about, but I'll try
<notgary> If you can't remember, then don;t worry about it just now
<notgary> Just write it in an email. that'll be better for all.
<druellan> The thing is, when we started focusing in apps
<druellan> The cycle where tied to a calendar
<druellan> say, one app per mouth, is that correct?
<druellan> mounth
<notgary> Sorry about that
<druellan> Wow, you're all right?
<notgary> Got my IRC client a bit messed up when I pasted multiple lines of text in
<druellan> No prob
<notgary> druellan: Do you want to wait until later before discussion this stuff, to give you a bit of time to think about it?
<druellan> I'll try to expose the main idea now if you like
<notgary> If it's not too much troubble
<druellan> I was saying, if I'm not mistaken, when we started focusing on one app per cycle
<druellan> Cycles where tied to a calendar , say, one per month, is that correct?
<notgary> Yep
<druellan> Well, when we discovered that GTK+ and Compiz where important, things started to behave more kahotic
<druellan> I think we're loosing the potential that an app per cycle can give us in terms of attracting more people to the project.
<notgary> I see what you're saying
<druellan> If, for example
<druellan> we are currently on "Nautilus Cycle"
<druellan> First, we can have a title on the wiki saying: "we are currently healing Nautilus, come along"
<druellan> We can on advance have some sort of tutorial in place, in the dojo
<druellan> If people come here trying to learn how to patch, is more likely that other devs can help them
<druellan> And, we can advertise cycles this way
<druellan> Just and idea
<notgary> It sounds good. I've had some doubts about moving away for focused milestones as well. There's roughly two months left on the R-cycle, so we can move some things around and work on two apps during that time. How about Rhythmbox and Nautilus?
<druellan> I think the key is to advertise we are now working on this or that, this way newcommers can know what to do
<druellan> Rhythmbox cycle was very successful
<druellan> we can give it a proper closure
<notgary> Indeed
<druellan> Oh, another thing, if we focus on an app per calendar, we can contact upstream in advnace and say: "this month we are going to bother you a lot!"
<notgary> Yeah, that worked well for us with Rhytmbox. We contact them, and a week later they'd fixed a bunch of the bugs themselves :)
<notgary> Anyway
<notgary> we'll do things that way
<notgary> Next item
<notgary> #topic Review of original goals for Raring
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | One Hundred Paper Cuts meeting for 19th Feb 2013 Meeting | Current topic:  Review of original goals for Raring
<notgary> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneHundredPaperCuts/Raring
<notgary> I put that together at the start of the Raring cycle
<notgary> and proceeded to not look at it again until last week :P
<notgary> I won;t go into the details with the little time we have left
<notgary> but there's a lot of stuff on there that I'd like to try and focus on clearing
<notgary> before the end of the cycle
<notgary> such as clearing the backlog of New and Incomplete
<notgary> bug
<druellan> yes, the "indentify bugs" table was a good idea
<notgary> The Global Jam events I mentioned earlier will help us with that table
<notgary> If we have a lot of volunteers on IRC over that weened all working through the backlogs
<notgary> we should be all set for the next cycle
<notgary> with a healthy backlog of bugs to see us through
<notgary> But yeah
<notgary> I just wanted to bring this to people's attention
<druellan> Are you going to propose Nautilus and Rhythmbox, or anything they can catch?
<notgary> anything they can catch. the goal I have for that weekend is to send as many bugs our way as possible, so we can pick out the good ones to work on during the S-Cycle
<druellan> Ok
<notgary> That's about it for me. We've covered everything I wanted to talk about, though maybe not in the order they were listed on the wiki :P
<notgary> druellan: BobJonkman: cprofitt You guys got anything you'd like to add?
<notgary> Or any other lurkers out there?
<BobJonkman> Nothing from me....
<druellan> I think thats all, next meeting I can talk about other things on that list
<notgary> Cool
<notgary> Well if no one has anything else, then...
<notgary> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 19 19:59:00 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-19-19.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-19-19.05.html
<notgary> Thanks a lot for coming along
<notgary> There were some excellent ideas tonight
<druellan> what a cute bot
<notgary> meetingology's excellent :)
<notgary> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<notgary> You can read more about it there
<druellan> notgary: sorry I was not fully prepared for the topics
<notgary> Don't worry about it. I was reading through my own topics as I was typing them in here :)
<notgary> Anyway, if things are going to be less formal, no one'll have to worry about that in the future.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-20
<smartboyhw> Hello is the Ubuntu membership board meeting holding now?
<Destine> smartboyhw, waiting for members to show up.
<danialbehzadi> smartboyhw: yes
<cyphermox> howdy
<smartboyhw> Destine, yay:)
<Tm_T> smartboyhw: who are you? (;
<smartboyhw> Tm_T, what do you *mean*? I am Howard Chan;P
<Tm_T> I'm only kidding, smartboyhw (:
<Pendulum> amachu: are you here?
 * smartboyhw is waiting while reading a book:P
<smartboyhw> ?
<Pendulum> smartboyhw, dosaboy, danialbehzadi and anyone else here for the membership board meeting: Unfortunately we have not been able to reach quarum when it comes to board members. As of right now we have to cancel the meeting. I'm very sorry. Please come back next month. If you don't want to wait that long, the 22:00 Membership Board meets on the first Thursday of every month.
<smartboyhw> Pendulum, what the.....
<Pendulum> and we just had someone else show up so now we have quarum
<Destine> smartboyhw, we can go on now. :)
<Pendulum> so we can hold the meeting :)
<smartboyhw> Pendulum, LOL
<dosaboy> :)
<Pendulum> smartboyhw: it always works this way ;)
<smartboyhw> Pendulum, more LOL
<jrgifford> oh man. :(
<smartboyhw> jrgifford, no it is happening now:P
<jrgifford> oh yay.
 * jrgifford gets out of the way, carry on!
<danialbehzadi> :))
<Pendulum> !startmeeting
<smartboyhw> Pendulum, that is starting with #
<smartboyhw> Not !
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 20 12:21:44 2013 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Pendulum> sorry, it's early here :)
<danialbehzadi> smartboyhw: ! is for commanding the bots in irc
<smartboyhw> danialbehzadi, but # is for the meetinglogy bot to work:)
<Pendulum> Welcome to the Meeting of the 12:00 UTC Membership Board Meeting.
<smartboyhw> :)
<Pendulum> #voters micahg Destine Pendulum cyphermox
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine Pendulum cyphermox micahg
<Pendulum> When we get to your turn as applicant please give us a short introduction to yourself including links to your wiki and launchpage pages.
<smartboyhw> ok
<Pendulum> When voting only board members may vote.
<Pendulum> so now let's finally get started :)
<Pendulum> #topic smartboyhw's application for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: smartboyhw's application for membership
<jrgifford> YAY smartboyhw!
<Pendulum> smartboyhw: please introduce yourself :)
<smartboyhw> Hello all.
<smartboyhw> I'm smartboyhw, Real name Howard Chan
<smartboyhw> I'm 14 from Hong Kong, China
<smartboyhw> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/smartboyhw
<smartboyhw> Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~smartboyhw
<smartboyhw> I work at different fields for Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> namely QA and packaging
<smartboyhw> In Ubuntu Community QA Team I mostly do ISO testing (I am a lover for it)
<smartboyhw> I am also a Ubuntu Testcase Admin so I also do writing testcases (I did one for Ubuntu Studio, I am currently doing one for transmission)
<smartboyhw> I also help QA in Kubuntu and Ubuntu Studio
<smartboyhw> I am the major QA person in Ubuntu Studio.... Also I help to write some testing docs
<smartboyhw> I also help some development projects
<smartboyhw> Ubuntu Accomplishments is one
<cyphermox> smartboyhw: what things have you packaged/ bugs have you worked on/ merges, etc.?
<smartboyhw> cyphermox, for the package list refer to my wiki:P
<smartboyhw> Namely (currently) calligra, rekonq, rt-tests and libktorrent
<smartboyhw> These are mostly Kubuntu packages since I am now an elite packager for Kubuntu
<smartboyhw> So that's it I think
<smartboyhw> Been contributing to Ubuntu for 8 months
<smartboyhw> ..
<zequence-s> Hi, I'm a Ubuntu Studio developer, and have found smartboyhw's contributions quite valuable, specifically in the QA area, where he's showing very good organizational skills
<Riddell> I fully recommend smartboyhw as an ubuntu member, he's been keen and enthusiastic to help kubuntu for the last few weeks and is now a kubuntu ninja
<smartboyhw> Thanks zequence-s ;D
<smartboyhw> Thanks Riddell too
<jrgifford> I'm a Ask Ubuntu community moderator, and while he didn't mention it, he is one of our active users.
<jrgifford> and I highly recommend him for ubuntu membership.
<smartboyhw> Thanks jrgifford :)
 * apachelogger recommends elite kubuntu ninja
<smartboyhw> Thanks apachelogger
<smartboyhw> ..
<Tm_T> I recommend smartboyhw also, have seen him being rather active on Kubuntu side (:
<smartboyhw> Thanks Tm_T
<Pendulum> Okay, ready to vote
<smartboyhw> !
<Pendulum> #vote smartboyhw's application for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: smartboyhw's application for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Pendulum> +1 good testimonials this time around :)
<meetingology> +1 good testimonials this time around :) received from Pendulum
<Destine> +1 Please keep up the good work! :)
<meetingology> +1 Please keep up the good work! :) received from Destine
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<micahg> +1 good work
<meetingology> +1 good work received from micahg
<codeadi> +1
<smartboyhw> codeadi, you can't vote, only the Ubuntu membership board can:P
<codeadi> okay
<Pendulum> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: smartboyhw's application for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<smartboyhw> YAY!
<Pendulum> smartboyhw: congrats and welcome!
<smartboyhw> Thanks!
<smartboyhw> Thanks to Riddell apachelogger jrgifford codeadi zequence-s Tm_T :)
<Destine> smartboyhw, congrats~!
<apachelogger> gz
<Pendulum> dosaboy: you're Edward Hope-Morley, correct?
<dosaboy> yes
<Pendulum> (just double checking since it isn't the IRC nick you put on the application page)
<Pendulum> okay, dosaboy, you're up
<Pendulum> #topic dosaboy for Ubuntu Membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: dosaboy for Ubuntu Membership
 * dosaboy definitely does not have as impressive a resume as smartboyhw
<Pendulum> dosaboy: please introduce yourself
<dosaboy> ok so I am Ed Hope-Morley
<smartboyhw> dosaboy, no worries:)
<jpds> dosaboy++
<dosaboy> based in the UK
<dosaboy> I've been using ubuntu for many years and I have been working on the Openstack project for the last 2 1/2 years
<dosaboy> ubuntu-based
<dosaboy> I have recently joined a team that maintains ubunut packages for openstack
<dosaboy> and I am now contributing
<dosaboy> I will be working on LTS and upstream support
<ivoks> dosaboy's work till how has been mostly testing (QA) of openstack on ubuntu, but all the work he does eventually ends up in ubuntu, so ++ from me, if that counts for anything
<dosaboy> and that's kind of all I can say atm
<zul> ++ from me as well
<dosaboy> thanks ivoks, zul
<dosaboy> oh and my wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdwardHope-Morley
<Pendulum> dosaboy: why are you interested in becoming a member?
<dosaboy> if the opportunity arises for decisions to be taken on Openstack strategy it would be nice to have a say and contribute if I can and as I understand it being a member of the project would help this.
<cjohnston> dosaboy: I believe openstack has their own memership of sorts
<cjohnston> dosaboy: http://www.openstack.org/foundation/ I think your referring to foundation membership
<dosaboy> agreed but openstack's ineterests may not always be alleiged with ubuntu
<dosaboy> whereas mine are :)
<Pendulum> dosaboy: how long have you been contributing to Ubuntu?
<zul> cjohnston: ubuntu memebership and openstack foundation are two different things
<dosaboy> I only starting contributing to ubuntu last month, as I have only just joined the team
<cjohnston> zul: if the opportunity arises for decisions to be taken on Openstack strategy it would be nice to have a say and contribute if I can and as I understand it being a member of the project would help this." -- It seems to me that dosaboy believes that Ubuntu Membership would help him with something
<ivoks> openstack strategy within ubuntu
<cjohnston> Ubuntu Membership still has nothing to do with that.
<micahg> dosaboy: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership ?
<dosaboy> um, yes
<cjohnston> Ubuntu Membership is awarded (or given) in recognition of sustained contributions to Ubuntu. I have never been asked as an Ubuntu Member to vote on something related to Openstack.
<ivoks> his contribution in ubuntu is in realm of openstack... he's a server engineer
<micahg> dosaboy: so, you feel that you've already significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community?
<cjohnston> ivoks: I understnad that.
<ivoks> for istance, an SRU he filled few days ago
<cjohnston> ivoks: I understand that as well.i
<Pendulum> Generally we see "sustained" as 6 months or more of contributions
<dosaboy> micahg: I openly admit I do/have not got the contribution history but I am ffor that forthwith. If you would prefer that I retrun once I have said contribution history that is fine by me.
<micahg> ivoks: SRU is development work which this board only treats as tangential to the application, if packaging work is the primary source of contribution, then an application to the DMB is more appropriate
<Pendulum> dosaboy: Ubuntu membership is based on having already contributed and showing that it's been sustained over time. You do not need it to contribute to any facet of the project. Please come back when you've spent more time contributing. :)
<dosaboy> I was under the impression that maintaining and testing packages for ubuntu would qualify me for membership :)
<dosaboy> ok sure
<cjohnston> dosaboy: it would. After it has 1) been sustained, and 2) for that you should probably apply to the DMB
<dosaboy> ack
<micahg> well, if it's mainly QA, I'd say here, if it's mainly packaging, the DMB
<cjohnston> what micahg said
<dosaboy> well it is definitely more QA than packaging
<dosaboy> e.g. testing upstream patches and backporting
<Pendulum> just so we can fit the last person in
<Pendulum> danialbehzadi: are you here?
<danialbehzadi> Pendulum: yes
<Pendulum> #topic danialbehzadi for Ubuntu membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: danialbehzadi for Ubuntu membership
<Pendulum> danialbehzadi: please introduce yourself :)
<danialbehzadi> Hi
<danialbehzadi> I am Danial Behzadi, 23 from Iran
<danialbehzadi> A computer software engineer and a member of Ubuntu-ir loco team, forum oderator, and web team
<danialbehzadi> My launchpad link: https://launchpad.net/~dani.behzi
<danialbehzadi> My Wiki link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/danialbehzadi
<danialbehzadi> My first experience in GNU/Linux was in 2003 by a debian-based distro name "Linspire"
<danialbehzadi> But my complete migration to free software was in 2007 by Ubuntu 7.10 gutsy
<danialbehzadi> Trough these year I am a member of Ubuntu-ir community and Free Software Users Group of Iran and we tried so hard to make people of all kinds, familiar with software freedoom consept.
<danialbehzadi> So we made a lot of meetings, celebrations, seminars, free educational classes, and even TV-shows to reach that goal.
<danialbehzadi> Then I thought about the reasons which reduces GNU/Linux grow speed in my country, and I belive the language problem is the prime reson.
<danialbehzadi> So, I joined to the translation and localization groups of Ubuntu (in launchpad) and Gnome (in gnome.org) and started to make free software localize for Iran.
<danialbehzadi> You can See the results in https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+lang/fa and http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/fa/gnome-3-6/ui/
<danialbehzadi> and compare them to previous two years, before I manage to translate them.
<danialbehzadi> And I am also the forum moderator of Ubuntu-ir as mentioned before (http://forum.ubuntu.ir/index.php?action=profile;u=3026).
<danialbehzadi> We manage the community in Iran and comparing to other local teams in various locations, I think that is one the most active local team of Ubuntu.
<Pendulum> danialbehzadi: is there anyone around who could cheer for you? We like to see support by way of testimonials and/or cheering during the meeting.
<danialbehzadi> I'm not sure, maybe dholbach? We met twice in Isfahan, Iran and Berlin, Germany.
<smartboyhw> danialbehzadi, that's interesting
<dholbach> yes, I met danialbehzadi and could see in Esfahan how much he is involved in the LoCo there
<dholbach> it was during Software Freedom Day where we met and thanks to him (and others) I also could give a talk there :)
<micahg> danialbehzadi: are there any Persian translation admins that can vouch for the quality of your translations?
<danialbehzadi> I am myself a Persian transltion admin in launchpad (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-fa)
<micahg> danialbehzadi: you're a member, not an admin
<danialbehzadi> But there is no translator present here now
<micahg> AFAICT
<danialbehzadi> Ok. I thought this is for tranlator members (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-fa-contributors)
<micahg> ah, is that the hierarchy of translations teams
<danialbehzadi> yes
<dholbach> https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/155490_1714044137190_4364071_n.jpg was the best picture I could find - Danial is right in front of me :)
<micahg> danialbehzadi: sorry, translations is one area that I'm not so familiar with
<dholbach> since we met in Esfahan we got a bit out of touch, but I could see on Facebook and and Google+ that he still was very much involved in Ubuntu Iran - and that's been constantly in the last two years
<dholbach> I hope that helps... I need to go outside now, sorry
<Pendulum> Okay, time for us to vote
<Pendulum> #vote danialbehzadi for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: danialbehzadi for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<micahg> +1 based on dholbach + awesome translation work
<meetingology> +1 based on dholbach + awesome translation work received from micahg
<Destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Destine
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Pendulum> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: danialbehzadi for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<smartboyhw> Congrats danialbehzadi
<Pendulum> danialbehzadi: congrats and welcome!
<danialbehzadi> smartboyhw: Pendulum: thanks
<Destine> danialbehzadi, congrats!
<danialbehzadi> Destine: thanks
<ivoks> danialbehzadi, smartboyhw congrats
<danialbehzadi> ivoks: thank you
<smartboyhw> Thanks ivoks
<Pendulum> Thanks everyone for being patient with us!
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 20 13:31:07 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-20-12.21.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-20-12.21.html
<ivoks> i have a question
<smartboyhw> Pendulum, micahg, cyphermox, Destine thanks
<ivoks> i find it rude that vote for one applicant was skipped
<ivoks> is this how it works nowdays?
<ivoks> it wasn't like that 8 years ago...
<Pendulum> ivoks: in general if an applicant is going to be denied, we ask them to come back with feedback on what they need to do to be approved rather than vote.
<micahg> ivoks: I thought it was clear that there wasn't sustained contribution yet and that he should return when that happens
<ivoks> of course it was clear; i just find it odd that there's the institution of voting which can always make the same rulling
<ivoks> it's kind of rude to the applicant
<micahg> I don't think it's rude to say someone is here prematurely
<ivoks> i wasn't refereing to the outcome
<ivoks> it's perfectly fine to say 'you are not good enough to be ubuntu member'
<ivoks> but then say it usin the ways community has come up with - voting
<micahg> as Pendulum said, the RMB usually verbally defers rather than vote if the outcome is clear
<RZAFC> anyone know how to get metaspoit on a ppc with lubuntu?
<zequence-s> RZAFC, This is not really a support channel. Try #ubuntu or #lubuntu perhaps
 * stgraber waves
 * xnox \o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
 * slangasek nudges the bot with his toe
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 20 16:02:55 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> there we go
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> slangasek stgraber jodh ogra cjwatson xnox doko barry bdmurray ev stokachu
<slangasek> hmm, I don't like these dice
<ev> I love these dice
 * xnox *giggles*
<slangasek> - uploaded initial packaging of systemd services to raring last week, in preparation for the desktop team's sprint this week
<slangasek> - discussions around the UbuntuKylin flavor application at the TB
<ogra_> oops
<stokachu> gnome relying on systemd makes me soooo happy
<ogra_> everyone
<ogra_> ...
<ogra_> lets switch to KDE
 * barry dusts off fvwm
<xnox> rumour has it, it will all be rewritten in QML soon =)
<stokachu> haha
<slangasek> - trying to figure out how to make ovmf use persistent storage for nvram variables
<xnox> that would be so awesome to have persistent nvram =)
<ev> GNOME? That thing still exists?
 * xnox ponders if one would be able to test mac os x weird efi using a modified ovmf.
<slangasek> - working on bug #1130419, since bad timing of the steam client release and Ubuntu 12.04.2 makes a mess on 64-bit systems
<slangasek> (done)
<ubottu> bug 1130419 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "apt resolver doesn't do sensible things when satisfying a cross-dependency on a virtual package (steam, wine)" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1130419
<stgraber> Feature work:
<stgraber>  - Upstart (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements)
<stgraber>   - Helped fix and prepare the upstart-shutdown branch.
<stgraber>   - Tested some chanegs to the way we deal with the environment.
<stgraber>   - Published updated test packages and sent call for testing yesterday.
<stgraber>   - Discussed event prefixing, decided not to actually change anything.
<stgraber>  - Container (BLUEPRINT: servercloud-r-lxc)
<stgraber>   - Release 0.9~alpha3.
<stgraber>   - Updated the package in Ubuntu which brings us really close to upstream, dropping over 100 patches.
<stgraber>   - Some more code reviews and forwarded most of our remaining delta upstream.
<cjwatson> slangasek: steam> oh, yes, sorry, way too many interrupts today and haven't got to that yet ...
<stgraber>  - Networking (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-networking)
<stgraber>   - Still waiting on test results for the infiniband support, no other progress there.
<stgraber> Other work:
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Didn't spend as much time as I'd have wanted on ofono support in NM but made all the property querying work. Now I need to figure out some random segfaults.
<slangasek> xnox: well, the darn thing is, ovmf has code already to read/write nvram state to disk... it's just not working, so I'm fighting with the thing to figure out where it's sending its debug output
<stgraber>  - Release
<stgraber>   - Edubuntu 12.04.2 LTS
<stgraber>   - Discussed plans for Ubuntu Kylin
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - Continue the ofono/NM work.
<stgraber>  - Try to finish any LXC feature work for this cycle (1 item left).
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> ogra_, stokachu: bah, don't worry, it's just a set of dbus interfaces for systemd :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: but I see David is way ahead of me anyway
<slangasek> cjwatson: right :-)  Can you follow up on his patch today, see if it works as advertised?
 * ogra_ notes down GNOME -> set of dbus interfaces for systemd
<cjwatson> slangasek: ok
<stokachu> i heard gnome is being included in the systemd package
<cjwatson> jodh is off, IIRC
<ogra_> i heard it becomes a kernel module
<doko> well, they wouldn't have any issue anymore with build deps
<stokachu> lol
<slangasek> jodh> correct
<ogra_> right after dbus moved into the kernel
<cjwatson> So ogra's turn
<slangasek> ogra_:
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_> * hunting installer breakage ...
<ogra_> (thanks xnox, cjwatson and seb for helping)
<ogra_> todo:
<xnox> doko: yeah it's very hard to do the whole Gnome module inclusion thing, so they decided that systemd is the last module they will include. If anything else is added, it must be in the systemd module.
<ogra_> * switch images to xz compression
<doko> that wsa short ;p
<ogra_> * make flavour images for nx7 work
<doko> that wsa short ;p
<xnox> doko: wait for my update.
<ogra_> * implement publisher code for tablet and phone dailies
<ogra_> ..
<cjwatson> ogra_: let me know if you need help with that last, since I gather it's urgent
<cjwatson> Finished and released 12.04.2.  (Was very little use to anyone on Friday.)
<cjwatson> foundations-r-phased-updates: Solicited and responded to another round of review.
<cjwatson> foundations-r-future-release-infrastructure: Made a bit more progress on rewriting cdimage in Python.  Not quite worked up the fortitude to tackle publish-release yet.
<cjwatson> Spent most of the rest of the week trying to make progress on rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks:
<cjwatson>  * Fixed apt-clone autopkgtest failures (bug 1112472).  Did some general maintenance on apt-clone while I was at it.
<ubottu> bug 1112472 in apt-clone (Ubuntu Raring) "dep8 test failed because test data is too old" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1112472
<cjwatson>  * Tweaked shim-signed to recommend secureboot-db (bug 1087843).
<ubottu> bug 1087843 in shim-signed (Ubuntu Quantal) "[MIR] secureboot-db" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1087843
<cjwatson>  * Fixed syslinux to build with GCC 4.7 (bug 1127462).
<ubottu> bug 1127462 in syslinux (Ubuntu) "syslinux should be built using gcc-4.7 again" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1127462
<cjwatson>  * Fixed grub-installer's transfer of user boot parameters to target system to work even with live filesystems (bug 664526).
<ubottu> bug 664526 in grub-installer (Ubuntu Precise) "setting nomodeset in grub, if live session was started with nomodeset" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/664526
<cjwatson>  * Fixed crash when double-clicking on partitioner controls (bug 1095684).
<ubottu> bug 1095684 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "Ubiquity crashes upon clicking 'New partition table' twice in the manual partitioning step during raring installation" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1095684
<ogra_> cjwatson, not that urgent as i understood (for dailies that is) ... the demo image will be a simple cp on my side
<cjwatson>  * Fixed ordering of encryption password strength indications (bug 1068391).
<ubottu> bug 1068391 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "Password strength bug" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068391
<cjwatson>  * Made installer locale handling smarter to be able to cope with many mismatched language/location pairs (bug 1094872).
<ubottu> bug 1094872 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "Installation information cause letter format instead of DIN A4" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094872
<cjwatson> Cleared up image build failure due to libreoffice 4.0.0 packaging changes.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> ogra_: OK
<cjwatson> handy :)
<ogra_> as i understood dailies early next week should be fine
<xnox> * uploaded plymouth with support to ask questions (bug #509384 )
<xnox> .
<xnox> * uploaded mdadm merge with many changes, most importantly plymouth
<xnox>   integration and initramfs support to assemble Intel Matrix Raid
<xnox>   arrays (sometimes aka Intel Rapid Storage). (bug #1102499 )
<xnox> .
<ubottu> bug 509384 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-logo does not implement display_question callback" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/509384
<xnox> * uploaded ntfs-3g package update (caused ABI break of testdisk, which
<ubottu> bug 1102499 in mdadm (Ubuntu) "Cannot see 'bootdegraded' question" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1102499
<xnox>   got spotted and escalated all the way to debian ctte, now fixed in
<xnox>   ubuntu and patch forwarded to debian). It solve a few compatibality
<xnox>   issues with Windows8 ntfs updates.
<xnox> .
<xnox> * helped ogra to debug ubiquity nexus7 image (and as it turns out
<xnox>   desktop images as well). In the end uploaded a workaround to not
<xnox>   start whoopsie together with ubiquity-dm. The actual cause of the
<xnox>   bug is believed to be deep in the network-manager generated bindings
<xnox>   which Laney was diving into to fix. (Not sure what the update there
<xnox>   is).
<xnox> .
<xnox> * tested unattended preseeding oem-config on the nexus7. It works \o/
<xnox>   email send to utha-devel & ubuntu-installer. The wifi preseeding
<xnox>   didn't work (by simply dropping network-manager config). I will try
<xnox>   calling nmcli tool directly, and if that fails will pass this over
<xnox>   to desktop/qa teams. Documented automatic-oem-config boot option on
<xnox>   the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopCDOptions
<xnox> .
<xnox> * Implemented support to pass rebootcommand argument to the reboot
<xnox>   syscall in the upstart's reboot utility. This allows to reboot into,
<xnox>   e.g. fastboot mode on the nexus7. (Thus completing the unattended
<xnox>   redeploy cycle for Nexus 7). Merge proposal on the way. I wonder if
<xnox>   UEFI fastpath "reboot into firmware" is implemented the same
<xnox>   way. Also interesting to know how one can query which rebootcommands
<xnox>   are supported.
<xnox> .
<xnox> * bug #1080437 is essentially fixed, by using g-s-d on the images that
<ubottu> bug 1080437 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "no background during the 13.04 daily install" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1080437
<xnox>   are available. There is merge proposal to use some lxde tool for
<xnox>   Lubuntu flavour and Xubuntu flavour is still needs to be
<xnox>   fixed. Painting background with g-s-d is nice, since it support
<xnox>   rotation & screen size changes out of the box (e.g. for nexus 7). At
<xnox>   the same time noticed t
<xnox>  At
<xnox>   the same time noticed that bug #594233 has regressed as the
<ubottu> bug 594233 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Pressing ctrl-alt-T gets you a root terminal in oem-config" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594233
<xnox>   configuration option moved from gconf/metacity to
<xnox>   gsettings/g-s-d. This is now fixed. At the same time cleaned up
<xnox>   remaining usage of gconf in ubiquity, as actually all of those keys
<xnox>   have migrated to gsettings now.
<xnox> .
<xnox> * Tested the upstart session login, fixed a race with g-s-d being
<xnox>   spawned too many times. Still other fixes to do. Chatted with laney
<xnox>   and forwarded instructions to him, he will be looking into / helping
<xnox>   with upstart based sessions on desktop side. And since he uses
<xnox>   xmonad session he wants a generic way to run existing xsessions.
<xnox> .
<xnox> * Working from the office this week, due to ongoing desktop
<xnox>   sprint. You can tell I'm catching on evan's verbose changelog mode.
<xnox> .
<xnox> * Also uploaded adb from 4.2.2 android sdk into the nexus7 installer ppa.
<xnox>   + blog. (for those not on raring).
<xnox> ..
<stgraber> xnox: you've been spending way too much time with ev ;)
<ogra_> you definitely work to close to ev now !
<ev> bwahahaha
<ogra_> *snap*
<doko> ev's company does do you any good
<stokachu> lp:1090512 - Need help in determing what rdepends I need to be concerned with and other pitfalls that may arise
<stokachu> lp:1068399 - Needs a ack/nack on getting this into precise
<stokachu> Most of my time has been utilized packaging Firefox and now Thunderbird ESR
<stokachu> (done)
<Laney> (I'm going to abuse cyphermox to help me on that)
<xnox> bug 1090512 bug 1068399
<ubottu> bug 1090512 in Quantal Backports "Please backport sudo 1.8.6p3-0ubuntu2 (main) from raring" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1090512
<ubottu> bug 1068399 in Precise Backports "Please backport parallel 20120422-1 (universe) from raring" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068399
<stokachu> doh sorry i thought i had it switched to the bug
<xnox> np.
<Laney> ping micahg about parallel
<doko> - another GCC-4.8 test rebuild (Debian testing, done by lucas), submitted four GCC issues for ICEs
<doko> - oops, they did it again ... OpenJDK-6 security builds
<doko> - +1 maintenance work (ftbfs, -proposed migration, component mismatches, package removals). looks like I could do this for another few weeks full time
<doko> - tracked down upstart coding issue, develper trying to outsmart the compiler
<doko> - got rid of gcc-4.6 in main
<doko> - chase downs submitters of incomplete MIRs
<doko> - Linaro GCC 4.7-2013.02 release, including all cross builds
<doko> - Linaro GCC 4.6-2013.02 release
<doko> - binutils updates from the branch, including all cross builds
<stokachu> Laney: ok will do
<doko> - helped with the Canonical statement about the Python trademark issue
<doko> done
<cjwatson> ooh, is that statement published?
<doko> I don't know
<barry> cjwatson: it is
<stokachu> i think chinchilla would be an awesome replacement name
<barry> cjwatson: well, um, it was sent to the psf anyway
<barry> short week due to usa holiday.  bug 1097922.  friends package debugging.  u1 client oauth debugging (upstream issue 120)y.  click packages.  tablet py3 work.
<ubottu> bug 1097922 in newt (Ubuntu Raring) "byobu-config crashed with ImportError in /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/snack.py: /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/_snack.so: undefined symbol: _Py_RefTotal" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1097922
<barry> foundations-r-python3-oauth: done
<xnox> barry: public URL or it didn't happen =)
<cjwatson> gotcha, thanks, just noosey
<cjwatson> *nosey
<barry> foundations-r-python-versions: done (though porting work may be ongoing)
<barry> foundations-r-python33: done
<barry> ..
<barry> (good question as to whether the psf will publish them)
<stokachu> ah i went out of turn, sorry everyone
<xnox> stokachu: chin3 and chin2.7 don't sound like awesome shebang lines.
<bdmurray> irc discussion with evan regarding the custom comparator for package versions and rolling it out
<bdmurray> worked on migration of bucketversion column family to one that uses the custom comparator
<bdmurray> pushed errors branch allowing one to use a first_appearence url parameter to the API
<bdmurray> submitted rt regarding updating errors to r270
<bdmurray> built and tested dpkgversiontype comparator on canonistack
<bdmurray> reviewed and tested evan's bucket page reworking
<bdmurray> modified bug bot to comment on sru bugs still needing verification
<bdmurray> wrote a tool to query the errors api regarding versions of packages from -proposed for errors
<bdmurray> modified errors regression checker to use date published and today as from and to dates
<bdmurray> subscribed desktop-packages and dx-packages to packages which they should be subscribed to
<bdmurray> reassignment of linaro packages in package to team mapping
<bdmurray> review of server team package to team mapping discrepancies
<bdmurray> updated meta release files for the 12.04.2 point release
<bdmurray> resolved an issue with cd_error being unset in the ubiquity source package hook
<bdmurray> worked on an upstart job to replace CD with packages functionality from update-notifier
<bdmurray> research into bug 1124330
<ubottu> bug 1124330 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "[raring] Latest whoopsie 0.2.13 slows down boot process by 29 seconds!" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1124330
<bdmurray> regarding work items I'm working on the following:
 * xnox ponders if it's the same network-manager bug....
<bdmurray> create and update a BucketSystems column family to keep track of unique systems in a bucket: INPROGRESS
<bdmurray> Import developer to package and developer to team mappings and filter the default view on errors.ubuntu.com to problems the developer and their team are responsible for: INPROGRESS
<bdmurray>  and finished
<bdmurray> auto comment on bugs needing verification (indicate that it needs to happen in the next 15 days) at some interval (3 months)
<bdmurray> â done
<ev> - Slower week. Sick for much of it, but feeling infinitely better now.
<ev> - Rebuilt the errors.ubuntu.com bucket page to match the design:
<ev>   https://errors.ubuntu.com/bucket/?id=%2Fusr%2Fbin%2Flsb_release%3AIOError%3A%3Cmodule%3E%3Amain%3Acheck_modules_installed%3Agetoutput%3Agetstatusoutput
<ev>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker#Bucket_page
<ev>   - The instances are now presented in an infinitely-scrolling table (sorting
<ev>     by time coming soon). This was made possible by a rebuild of the Buckets CF
<ev>     using a TimeUUID comparator. I have a ticket in process to drop the old CF.
<ev>   - The graph is now based on average instances per calendar day (weighted
<ev>     against the systems) rather than a raw instance count, and provides
<ev>     individual lines for each release (the key is coming back soon).
<ev>   - The package versions with this problem table will provide a
<ev>     version-by-version breakdown of the problem in each Ubuntu version, but
<ev>     right now it just displays the total count. This is waiting for the new
<ev>     BucketVersions CF that uses a composite of my DpkgVersionType comparator
<ev>     and a UTF8 string for the Ubuntu release.
<ev> - Wrote a script to rebuild the BucketVersions CF using different comparators
<ev>   and used it to find out that there are a lot of binary crashes that we're not
<ev>   retracing. This is because while we clear the Rabbit queues when they get too
<ev>   big, we don't also clear the index in Cassandra for this. So while we remove
<ev>   the core files we have to hand, we never ask users for a replacement. I'm
<ev>   going to work with IS to get the process changed to account for this.
<ev>   The rebuild script is running in a debugging mode on one of the retracer
<ev>   machines for now, collecting some more background information. As soon as I
<ev>   finish getting the new Cassandra version (1.2.1) ready for production, the
<ev>   new column family set up in oops-repository, and everything deployed, I'll
<ev>   ask webops to switch it over to write mode.
<ev> - Investigation work around Cassandra 1.2.1. They've finally built an ACL in
<ev>   the core distribution again, but it's not complete in the released version.
<ev>   We can continue using SimpleAuthenticator (text files) for now and switch
<slangasek> stokachu: sudo reverse-depends> I'm not all that familiar with the backports process, but it seems to me like the point is there to test *all* of them to spot any issues?  If the question is which revdeps are likely to break, I think the answer is "none"
<ev>   over to the Cassandra keyspace backed authentication backend when 1.2.2/3 is
<ev>   out.
<ev> - Bundling Cassandra 1.2.1 with simple authentication and my DpkgVersionType
<ev>   comparator. Testing on Canonistack.
<ev> - Code review for Brian.
<ev> - Discussion with Bryce about Xorg needs around the error tracker. They'd like
<ev>   to retain some core files as they need to see locals in the backtrace output.
<ev>   We agreed to build a small fixed size queue of Xorg core dumps.
<ev>   They also want to be able to sort by the Last seen field in the most common
<ev>   problems table, ellipsize on the First/Last seen fields instead of the
<ev>   signature column, and search by packageset.
<ev> (done)
<doko> that was short
<stgraber> ev: you loose, xnox's was longer ;)
<stgraber> ev: but you were sick, I guess that's a valid excuse
<slangasek> bdmurray, ev: is that custom comparator going to be released, btw?  Seems like the sort of thing that would find occasional reuse elsewhere
<stokachu> slangasek: yea i was afraid i'd have to test them all
<ev> slangasek: https://github.com/evandandrea/cassandra-dpkgversiontype
<slangasek> stokachu: or alternately, none ;)  But that's a question of the backports process
<slangasek> ev: yay - you should send an RFP to Debian, see if someone on the java team wants to maintain a package for it
<slangasek> any other questions re: statuses?
<ev> slangasek: tricky - cassandra moves quicker than Debian's glacial pace and thus the packages live in the Apache debian repository
<ev> so if it were packaged, the dependencies wouldn't be solvable in Debian
<slangasek> ah, it has cassandra-specific deps?
<slangasek> maybe less interesting then, indeed
<ev> it's built against the Cassandra API, yeah
<slangasek> right, I assumed it was something generalizable that cassandra would call out to
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: what's new with six legs and wings?
<bdmurray> well there is the previously mentioned bug 1124330
<ubottu> bug 1124330 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "[raring] Latest whoopsie 0.2.13 slows down boot process by 29 seconds!" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1124330
<slangasek> has anyone else seen that bug?
<slangasek> I rebooted yesterday, saw nothing of the sort
<ev> given that it's installed on everyone's system and the delta from 0.2.9 to 0.2.13 didn't touch anything upstart related, I call shenanigans
 * barry neither
<bdmurray> I've not seen it
<ev> installed on everyone's system> I'd have quite a few people beating down my door
<slangasek> so probably unrelated to the whoopsie update
<slangasek> though it may still be triggered by whoopsie in some fashion
<ev> nothing depends on it
<xnox> well from 0.2.9 -> 0.2.13 we have a switch from direct dbus to nm-bindings-to-dbus and that broke nexus7 and desktop images when no desktop-session is running.
<xnox> so if someone happens to boot into something like ubiquity-dm.....
<ev> yeah, that was strange
<slangasek> so, on the boot charts it looks like things go to sleep exactly at the point of NM activity
<xnox> and whoopsie can start before network-manager (as there is no start on as far as I can see)
<xnox> thus doing dbus activation of network-manager?!
<ev> hm, I would say it should start on network-manager, but it doesn't explicitly need it
<slangasek> I don't see ubiquity in the chart, fwiw; though there is 'preload', which points to this user tinkering to try to speed up their system
<ev> if it cannot talk to NM, it's supposed to carry on like it has an active internet connection
<xnox> and you are using async NM calls? cause otherwise it will block on getting the dbus proxy for NM objects.
<ev> I guess there's no way to express, "ideally wait for network-manager, but if it doesn't show up, still start whoopsie"
 * xnox should poke that code.
<slangasek> ev: but if the way it checks for NM is over dbus, and this auto-launches NM, that could be a problem
<ev> or is that effectively dbus service activation
<slangasek> (maybe)
<xnox> ev: well we can start on started network-manager or (something that is much later but present on all systems)
<slangasek> the only dbus-activated service I see in NM is /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.nm_dispatcher.service
<ev> xnox: is it safe to assume everyone has NM?
<slangasek> no
<xnox> no.
<ev> xnox: there are no async libnm calls
<ev> at least not for what we need: http://projects.gnome.org/NetworkManager/developers/libnm-glib/09/NMClient.html
<slangasek> (not if you want whoopsie to work on servers in any capacity)
<ev> yeah, and I do
<slangasek> delayed whoopsie startup can be done as 'start on stopped rc RUNLEVEL=[2345]'
<slangasek> though that's not /guaranteed/ to take longer than starting up NM itself
<xnox> ev: that is no much different from the udisks2 bindings.
<xnox> s/no/so/
<slangasek> however, as mentioned the only dbus-activated NM serice is the dispatcher
<slangasek> which I don't think whoopsie would be using?
<ev> nope
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> who can follow up on this bug?  xnox?
<ev> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~daisy-pluckers/whoopsie/trunk/view/head:/src/connectivity.c is pretty simple
<xnox> slangasek: ok. i'll poke it a bit more.
<xnox> unless ev is in love with network-manager? =)
<slangasek> xnox: thanks
<slangasek> bdmurray: other bugs?
<ev> xnox: stab stab
<ev> thanks :)
<bdmurray> the oem team pinged me about bug 1097570
<ubottu> bug 1097570 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub2-signed can not find the right device when there are two filesystems containing the file '.disk/info'." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1097570
 * xnox .o0( How to tell apart identical twins?! )
<bdmurray> cjwatson: you'd said at one point in time that wouldn't make 12.04.2 because it was rather hard
<cjwatson> Indeed
<cjwatson> My best idea is to put a UUID in that file and match on that instead
<cjwatson> Or something similar
<cjwatson> But I haven't yet checked whether that's feasible
<cjwatson> (Probably a different file, actually)
<cjwatson> bdmurray: I can take assignee on that - probably more sensible since I wrote the code
<cjwatson> And I'll put it on rls-r-tracking so I remember
<bdmurray> cjwatson: okay, sounds good
<bdmurray> and they also mentioned bug 967229
<ubottu> bug 967229 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "Text mode shown briefly with various "cryptic" texts when logging out or shutting down" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967229
<cjwatson> Heh, now *that's* a long-running problem
<cjwatson> (Sorry, that's my only useful input)
<slangasek> I saw an update on that one from jmleddy yesterday
<bdmurray> right
<slangasek> the printf/clear seems to be what we discussed with apw several udses ago but never implemented
<slangasek> for the record, there's no way to prevent this from going into text mode briefly on shutdown - it's not an upstart ordering bug
<slangasek> the architecture just doesn't allow for it to be done sanely - the X server won't leave the VT in graphics mode
<slangasek> (and probably shouldn't, for purposes of maintainability/debuggability)
<slangasek> so we do need to clear the text
<slangasek> bdmurray: IIRC we said we wanted to clear the text there on VT7 after starting lightdm?
<slangasek> in which case putting this in the lightdm job might be most sensible
<mdeslaur> that doesn't work
<cjwatson> mm, I would recommend clearing it just before exiting X as well - it's not uncommon for stuff to be left on vt7 later on
<bdmurray> slangasek: yes, that sounds right
<slangasek> mdeslaur: why not?
<cjwatson> shouldn't hurt to do both
<slangasek> cjwatson: I think at the time, we argued that anything writing to VT7 *while* lightdm is running is itself buggy and we should know about it and fix it at the source
<mdeslaur> you can clear the screen when you shutdown lightdm, but the processes that get shutdown in parallel by upstart still print junk before plymouth comes up
<cjwatson> I'm not sure I buy that argument - writing to the console under X isn't intrinsically buggy
<slangasek> cjwatson: the argument is that they shouldn't be outputting to the console
<slangasek> they should be outputting somewhere more useful
<cjwatson> Maybe
<slangasek> mdeslaur: likewise, jobs shutting down in parallel to lightdm shouldn't be writing anything here; the output should be sent somewhere more appropriate (possibly plymouth, possibly upstart log)
<cjwatson> However, if I boot without quiet (or even without splash), I still don't want startup junk on my screen when I shut down
<cjwatson> sending to plymouth is hard when plymouthd hasn't restarted yet :)
<slangasek> yeah
<mdeslaur> slangasek: yes, that makes sense
<cjwatson> and sending to the upstart log requires knowing what you're doing in advance
<slangasek> but we could make sure plymouthd starts sooner on shutdown, while leaving the splash deferred until lightdm shuts down
<cjwatson> I think we have to do that, yes
<slangasek> anyway, I think having the lightdm job clear the VT on startup is per-se correct
<cjwatson> similar to the startup architecture
<slangasek> so we should probably do that as a first step that covers the 90% case, I think?
<slangasek> bdmurray: are you happy moving ahead with that part of it?
<bdmurray> slangasek: sure
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> any other bugs?
<bdmurray> bug 1126107 - I haven't had a chance to test it yet though
<ubottu> bug 1126107 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity does not start during raring desktop installations using libvirt and KVM " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1126107
<xnox> it should work now that whoopsie got a work around.
<slangasek> -> fix released then?
<xnox> wait, this is different.
<xnox> but needs a retest before proceeding with images from 18th or better.
<cjwatson> we didn't get a daily build this morning due to libreoffice-related breakage, but I'm respinning for that at the moment
<cjwatson> however the last daily build booted fine
<cjwatson> (just tested)
<xnox> I'll test more, for my current merge-proposal in a moment. And I'll mark it incomplete if I cannot reproduce this any more.
<cjwatson> I'm just leaving a comment too
<slangasek> ok, seems like that bug's in hand then
<slangasek> bdmurray: next? :)
<bdmurray> bug 1127867 regarding precise
<ubottu> bug 1127867 in mdadm (Ubuntu Precise) "/etc/udev/rules.d/65-mdadm.vol_id.rules uses non-existent 'vol_id'" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1127867
<xnox> mine. Thanks for pointing out, didn't see it.
<slangasek> is that a file generated in the current (precise) package, or an upgrade leftover?
<slangasek> anyway, left to xnox (who is very popular today with the bugs)
<xnox> it's a regression between -release & -updates (where we switched to upstream udev rules)
<slangasek> ok
<xnox> as far as I can tell by quickly scanning.
<slangasek> bdmurray: any more?
<bdmurray> slangasek: nope, that's it!
<slangasek> great
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 20 17:07:01 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-20-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-20-16.02.html
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<ev> thanks!
<ev> ugh, I think something is very wrong in Cassandra 1.2.1's authentication code
<xnox> cheers
<xnox> ev: i remeber subtle multi-node bugs where authentication details didn't propagate between uwsgi workers and it was fun to refresh and hit random accounts data in that webapp depedning on which worker served the reply.
<ev> xnox: heh, and this was with Cassandra or some other layer?
<xnox> hopefully cassandra eventually authenticates =)
<ev> yuk yuk yuk!
<xnox> (no cassandra anywhere near, python & openerp)
<ogra_> thanks ! (belated)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-21
 * pleia2 waves
<czajkowski> aloha
 * vibhav waves
<funkyHat> Hello
<Tm_T> hi funkee
 * funkyHat o/
<vibhav> Tm_T: Irc council? :)
<Tm_T> vibhav: yes?
<YokoZar> Hello
<dholbach> hi
<AlanBell> o/
<topyli> hi
 * AlanBell installs phablet tools
 * cprofitt waves
<cprofitt> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 21 17:09:05 2013 UTC.  The chair is cprofitt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pleia2> hello
<cprofitt> Hello everyone and welcome to the CC meeting
<cprofitt> today we will be touching base with the IRC Council and Developer Advisory Team
<dholbach> I see we have a number of IRC Council people here. :)
<cprofitt> are people here from IRC Council?
 * cprofitt smiles
<dholbach> And a bit fewer DAT people too. :)
<AlanBell> hi cprofitt
<Tm_T> moin
<topyli> o/
<funkyHat> Hello
<Tm_T> all but one from ircc, nice
<cprofitt> great, lets start with the IRC Council
<cprofitt> #topic IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: IRC Council
<cprofitt> #chair czajkowski dholbach pleia2 YokoZar
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar cprofitt czajkowski dholbach pleia2
<dholbach> how are you all doing? how has the cycle been for the IRC Council so far?
<czajkowski> anyone can answer :)
<AlanBell> hi dholbach, I think this cycle has been fine, a bit quieter than the previous one perhaps
<AlanBell> we did operator recruitment again, and k1l joined the team
<AlanBell> doing recruitment in line with the development cycles still seems to make sense to me
<dholbach> AlanBell, was it because of less planned work for the cycle or because of less adhoc "let's get the IRC Council involved" requests?
<Tm_T> as I've been aboard on council for half a year, I've felt we've been basicly just doing what we always do, nothing special lately
<cprofitt> are all operator teams well staffed?
<AlanBell> all operator teams seem appropriately staffed, we have not really had any issues of a lack of operators
<cprofitt> good to hear
<AlanBell> dholbach: a bit of both, we made some changes in the prior cycle and had stuff like the Lubuntu operators to bring in etc
<AlanBell> one thing I want to look at soon is disaster recovery for ubottu.com, that server had some reliability issues before christmas and we are a bit more dependent on it than I would like to be
 * cprofitt nods
<dholbach> do the IRC Council is down to the bottom of their TODO list? :)
<czajkowski> AlanBell: do you feel it's a quieter cycle as it's the council has been organised and things are running smoothly ?
<AlanBell> well there is an email in my inbox now that has arrived on the todo list, I think you all have a copy of that too
<cprofitt> AlanBell: is ubottu currently a single server solution?
<Tm_T> cprofitt: yes
<AlanBell> don't really want to go through that until we have all read it
<cprofitt> AlanBell: yes, we got that email
<cprofitt> same here AlanBell
<Tm_T> czajkowski: from long time ops POV I'd say we've quite estamblished team so things are bound to run rather smoothly
<cprofitt> Tm_T: would you be looking at an HA solution or just a disaster recovery?
<AlanBell> disaster recovery
<Tm_T> ^
<czajkowski> Tm_T: that's good to hear.
<czajkowski> AlanBell: is there anything the CC can help with ?
<AlanBell> we are cool with it being down for a few hours, but if it went and didn't come back we would be a bit annoyed
<AlanBell> so we want a plan for that
<dholbach> do you have new community members helping out in the irc world?
 * cprofitt nods to AlanBell 
<Tm_T> I wouldn't mind having more fresh blood in our ranks but as IRC administration is easily rather heavy duty I understand why we don't have that much changes
<Tm_T> dholbach: some, but more wouldn't hurt ^
<AlanBell> there are a few regular helpers who are not ops
<AlanBell> some don't really want to be ops, which is fair enough
<dholbach> did some of them take the ubuntu irc members route?
<czajkowski> Tm_T: why do you say it's heavy duty ?
<AlanBell> we have yet to award a membership, but we do have M4V on our agenda as a membership application
<Tm_T> czajkowski: you know how high-paced #ubuntu can be and when we're doing our work we often face rather abusive response
<Tm_T> and sometimes decisions have to be done rather quickly
 * cprofitt nods at Tm_T 
<czajkowski> ok
<Tm_T> I would love to way a find to lower the barrier to get into our irc team activity, something that doesn't necessarily require op rights
<Tm_T> +find
<cprofitt> Tm_T: I think there is also a realization by ops that they often represent the face of Ubuntu to users on IRC and their actions will really reflect on the project as a whole
<Tm_T> cprofitt: that, very much so
<pleia2> I think there was a UDS session that discussed some tasks others could take on, like bot wrangling and updating of docs
<Tm_T> yup, that's one thing
<dholbach> do you have a gut feeling for how well channels like #ubuntu are running, compared to earlier times? more/less bans? more/less complaints? more/less stress?
<cprofitt> good question dholbach
<dholbach> I just thought that the team must surely have gotten some experience over the last cycles, which probably helped
<dholbach> but yeah, just a gut feeling would be good to hear from you :)
<Tm_T> I feel things are more settled these days as the community has matured somewhat, others might see it differently though ):
<AlanBell> it goes up and down, we have 1859 users in there at the moment, which is quite a lot, I think the number of bans has probably gone down
<Tm_T> (: even
<Tm_T> I spend more time on other channels than #ubuntu so my perspective contains those too
<AlanBell> I might try and do some stats on the frequency of bans and kicks issued
<Tm_T> AlanBell: that would be nice
<AlanBell> we haven't done much time analysis on the data
<pleia2> gut-wise I've felt things be a whole lot calmer in irc-land
<cprofitt> I would agree pleia2
<Tm_T> pleia2: I have a feeling that our community has succeeded on creating an environment that helps on keeping bad behaviour limited (:
<pleia2> I do see a fair amount of "I can't get help in #ubuntu" but that's really an issue with the size of the channel, it's not really possible to avoid
<pleia2> Tm_T: yeah
<pleia2> and plenty of people do get help in #ubuntu
<AlanBell> there are also good, more focussed channels
<AlanBell> like #ubuntu-tablet/phone/steam
<AlanBell> so they are taking some of the chatter load out of #ubuntu
<pleia2> that's good
<Tm_T> and flavour channels ofcourse
<dholbach> is there anything the CC or the wider community could do to help?
<czajkowski> AlanBell: so now things are stable and working well, what would the IRC like to work on next?
<Tm_T> dholbach: I would love to improve communication between teams (hey, theme from UDS)
<Tm_T> I bet there's many ways how irc team could help other teams
<dholbach> Tm_T, nice one
<Tm_T> maybe we should advertise "we would love to help you, come and ask!" more or something
<pleia2> :)
<dholbach> maybe a session at open week or user days too?
<dholbach> (in case you haven't done one of these in a while)
 * AlanBell wonders if there is a QML IRC client
<Tm_T> dholbach: perhaps, but it would be nice to know what others would need from us there (:
<pleia2> open week would be most appropriate, or stand alone sessions (I think we wanted some this cycle, but didn't get around to it yet)
<vibhav> AlanBell: I plan on writing one :)
<pleia2> Tm_T: aha, you have an action item :) https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-r-irc-workshops
<Tm_T> I do
<Tm_T> but yeah, more of those would be good
<dholbach> any more questions? :)
 * dholbach is all set
<czajkowski> likewise
<cprofitt> I am as well
<czajkowski> as we do have another board to get through
<cprofitt> #topic Developer Advisory Team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Developer Advisory Team
<AlanBell> perhaps some CC folk could pop into #ubuntu-irc-council later to chat about the email we received
<cprofitt> welcome Developer Advisory Team!
<cprofitt> AlanBell: will do
<czajkowski> sure
<dholbach> vibhav, _o/\o_
<dholbach> hello hello :-D
<dholbach> got any questions for us? :)
<czajkowski> aloha :)
<cprofitt> so how has this cycle been for the team?
<czajkowski> dholbach: well I don't know much about the board, but I have seen it get involved in some discussion on the DMB, so I'm curious to know who the team is interacting with others and making progress?
<dholbach> what the DAT does is mostly reaching out to development contributors... to folks who just got their first patch into Ubuntu, so we can welcome them, help them and ask for their feedback
<vibhav> o/
<dholbach> but we also talk to more experienced people, ask for their feedback, help them apply for upload rights if we feel they're ready
<dholbach> and reach out to inactive folks as wlel
<dholbach> well
<vibhav> czajkowski: We recently had a meeting and we decided to work on some few targets
<dholbach> we brought vibhav and jokerdino on board a couple of months ago, which was necessary as some of our old members got quite active with life
<dholbach> the idea about working more closely with the DMB was in order to help developers who can apply for upload rights soon
<vibhav> We also aim to help members who are rejected
<dholbach> Iain Lane brought up the idea and we felt that it'd make sense to have a chat before folks apply, so we can either help fix the application or just take a bit more time until they apply
<czajkowski> aye Laney does get some good ideas alright :)
<Laney> meow
<pleia2> :)
<vibhav> czajkowski: Indeed
<czajkowski> dholbach: I see the DAT focuses a lot on the develpers who are already involved, how do you get new people who may be involved locally at loco level to take the plunge
<dholbach> that's nothing the DAT looks into really - we're mostly reacting to other people's contributions or lack of contributions I guess
<czajkowski> ah I see
<vibhav> czajkowski: dholbach maintains a list of New developers which is automatically updated
<ScottK> dholbach: It might make sense to review the applications on the next DMB meeting agenda and proactively give feedback to applicants if warrented.
<cprofitt> +1 ScottK
<dholbach> ScottK, nice one
<ScottK> (fwiw, we have a meeting Monday)
<dholbach> I'm in the middle of the craziest of weeks, but I'll add something to my list
<dholbach> and share it with the rest of the team
<ScottK> That would also avoid it looking like talk with the DAT before applying is an actual part of the application process.
<dholbach> no
<dholbach> I never said that
<ScottK> I understand.
<dholbach> it's not necessary and shouldn't be. :-)
<cprofitt> Is there anythink the CC can do to assist the DAT?
<dholbach> good question :)
<dholbach> vibhav, what do you think?
<dholbach> vibhav, do we maybe need more hands on deck? :)
<vibhav> dholbach: sure
<dholbach> that's the only thing I can really think of
<vibhav> We need people to help put with dat v2
<dholbach> we should probably start a call for contributors some time soon again
<dholbach> yes, that too
<dholbach> dat v2 is the tool we're working on to help us track contributions
<cprofitt> interesting sounding tool
<dholbach> we've in the process of moving off of something horrible to something nice and django based
<vibhav> The current tool we use is a bit broken
<dholbach> but as we're all involved in all kinds of other teams, we didn't really get much done yet
<dholbach> Andrew SB is putting some work into it right now
<dholbach> vibhav, I'll add something to my list, so we can talk about a call for help soon
<vibhav> Perfect
<dholbach> :)
<czajkowski> i take it some level of technical developer is needed in order to help out
<dholbach> with the dat v2 yes, in general to help out the team not necessarily, although it help if you have a bit of an understanding about ubuntu development or how the development teams here work
<vibhav> dholbach had written a small spec for dat v2
<vibhav> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-r-dev-advisory-team
<dholbach> vibhav, I'll have a chat with Andrew SB about it - once we have reliable data it should be much more fun to help out :)
<czajkowski> Is there a way the CC can help ?
<dholbach> not right now, but we might reach out to the CC some time in the future
<vibhav> I think reaching out for new contributors for dat v2 can help
<vibhav> Except that, we're quite fine as a team :)
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> thanks
<czajkowski> :)
<vibhav> :)
<czajkowski> ok any other comments folks before we move on ?
<dholbach> more questions? Otherwise I'd think that's a wrap. :)
<czajkowski> going once
<czajkowski> twice
<czajkowski> gone
<czajkowski> :)
<czajkowski> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<czajkowski> anyting else we need to look at folks
<pleia2> I don't think so
<czajkowski> I know the IRC wants to follow up on stuff we can do that after the meeting or later on
<czajkowski> our trello looks up to date
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
<dholbach> I'm all set
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 21 17:57:52 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-21-17.09.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-21-17.09.html
<dholbach> thanks a bunch everyone!
<cprofitt> thanks for coming everyone!
<czajkowski> cheers
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-22
<oDiafanos> /j #fuduntu
<seb128> hey
<ogra_> seb128, yo, just pinged you in -desktop
<seb128> ogra_, yeah, sorry I was on the phone
<seb128> but I'm just done
<seb128> would be good to have a quick meeting
<seb128> just so we don't loose the cadence
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> so we had that bad bad installer bug in the beginning of the week
<ogra_> which turned out to be caused by whoopsie talking to NM in a way it didnt like
<ogra_> this is fixed now
<ogra_> beyond that, not much happened on my side, i was responsible for the phone image release and am catherding the community in #ubuntu-phone since
<seb128> did we get it fixed or just workarounded?
<ogra_> fixed now
<ogra_> there was a workaround on tuesday and now we have a real fix in the image/archive
<seb128> excellent
<ogra_> the fun part was that the same bug manifests totally different on i386
<ogra_> (just delays the boot by 30 sec)
<ogra_> so you guys had a sprint, anything exciting happened ?
<seb128> yeah, we did
<seb128> let me look at the team notes
<seb128> I plan to do a summary, just got really busy
<seb128> well, first foundation got even closer to land upstart session jobs
<seb128> there was a call for testing on ubuntu-devel list
<ogra_> oh, yeah
<seb128> not sure how many people playing with it yet
<seb128> we got systemd landing as well
<ogra_> specifically systemd-logind
<seb128> which means we can replace part of ubuntu-system-service (python)
<ogra_> \o/
<seb128> well, I looked a systemd-services so far
<seb128> we have some issues with it but it's mostly working
<seb128> going through my notes:
<seb128> - friends, which is the new social media framework, landed in the archive
<ogra_> yeah, i saw it on the changes ML
<seb128> - qt5 landed in raring
<seb128> qtbase5 got MIRed
<ogra_> are you guys also bringing the phablet stuff in ?
<seb128> we started
<ogra_> YAY
<seb128> it's going to take a while
<seb128> qt5 is good, it means we will be able to do dev work for the phone without ppa soon
<seb128> (still looking through my notes)
<seb128> we got some leaks fixed in rhythmbox
<ogra_> nice !
<seb128> sorry
<ogra_> any other memory hogs ?
<seb128> (somebody was talking to me here...)
<ogra_> (identified/fixed)
<seb128> not really
<seb128> we got the new pango uploaded
<seb128> using harfbuzz
<ogra_> well, i assume we'll get a good benefit from the new upstart at least
<seb128> that will allows us to update gtk as well
<ogra_> ah, cool
<seb128> pango and gtk have quite some performance/memory usage improvements
<seb128> on the printing front there is ongoing work for automatic detection of network printers from devices
<ogra_> so no more conbstantly running service then ?
<seb128> that should allows us to care a small print stack (like 1M of disk footprint) which allows you to use any network printer
<seb128> no, just when printing
<ogra_> sweet, tkampeter rocks :)
<seb128> ;-)
<seb128> and I think that's mostly it
<ogra_> (he also fixed xbmc for us on the nexus in his spare time)
<seb128> lot of small details and work for the phone image landing
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> looking forward to get the UI running on our image at some point
<seb128> yeah, me too
<seb128> we are going to be busy in the next months for sure :-)
<ogra_> though by then it will already run on 100s of different devices out there
<seb128> does anyone has anything else to add?
<ogra_> within 24h the touch image was ported to three new devices
<seb128> waouh
<seb128> which ones?
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> galaxy S3 and two CDMA versions of nexus phones we dont support
<ogra_> S2 and xoom tablet are in the works
<seb128> ok
<seb128> excellent!
<ogra_> i guess next meting we'll have at least 10 new devices out there :)
<ogra_> and 5 more touch apps ;)
<seb128> hehe
<seb128> let's wrap on that note then?
 * ogra_ doesnt have anything to add
<ogra_> so exciting times in ubuntu land
<seb128> yeah
 * ogra_ must admit he was really sceptical before yesterday
<ogra_> but the world just exploded around me, hard to ignore :)
<seb128> the number of people on #ubuntu-phone is impressive
<ogra_> so lets wrap up if no community person is around to speak up
<seb128> thanks everyone
<seb128> have a good w.e!
<ogra_> you too !!!
<ogra_> and safe flicht
<ogra_> *flight
<seb128> thanks ;-)
<CrestedNewt> Evening all - sry a bit late but getting out from customer caused a delay :(
<mhall119> hi CrestedNewt
<CrestedNewt> hiya mhall119 - no one else here
<CrestedNewt> YO!! Popey!!
<CrestedNewt> well I don't have much to report (read nothing!)
<mhall119> yeah, this week has been kind of dominated by the Tablet stuff
<CrestedNewt> well should we start anyway - just so that we have a record of the meeting?
<mhall119> sure
<CrestedNewt> #startmeeting Ubuntu-TV Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Feb 22 18:16:50 2013 UTC.  The chair is CrestedNewt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu-TV Community Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<CrestedNewt> Evening all, we were waiting for the Ubuntu Phone software so not much has been happening.
<CrestedNewt> from my end anyway
<mhall119> mine either
<CrestedNewt> Well what I have from the last meeting is the following
<CrestedNewt> Action points
<CrestedNewt> 1. bobweaver working on porting dconf-qt to qt5
<mhall119> I believe I saw that he's made some progress on that
<CrestedNewt> 2. bobweaver working on porting libbamf and launcher to qt5
<mhall119> unfortunately he's not here to give an official update on it
<CrestedNewt> 3. Make an ISO
<CrestedNewt> 4. tgm4883 look at SVO (? can't read my own writing) for front end and find some more 'cool stuff'
<CrestedNewt> 5. crestednewt to make a video of other PVR system for the group - not done
<CrestedNewt> 6. crestednewt to talk to ARM - done but waiting a call back
<CrestedNewt> end of list
<mhall119> so for #2, there may be some stuff in the Touch release that bobweaver can use
<mhall119> though it doesn't appear to be doing much atm, so maybe he'll have more to give that to take
<CrestedNewt> mhall119 - I know that he did something and his whole setup crashed. let me grab the post
<CrestedNewt> Dang Compiz and unity-greeter just killed my house. Droped a big old bomb. I better not upgrade on other machines. Now to reconfigure all my TV's OUCH !!!!!
<CrestedNewt> This programming stuff I have no idea's about though
<mhall119> now that the touch code is out, he's going to have more to play with
<mhall119> probably means he'll go back and re-do some stuff
<CrestedNewt> Well I know that he is getting really fed up re-doing stuff
<mhall119> yeah, but he's been waiting to see this code for a while now
<CrestedNewt> well hopefully that will put a smile back on his face :D
<mhall119> I guess we'll get an update from him next week on what it means for TV's development
<mhall119> I'll take an action item for this week to try and get an update on technology direction from Canonical
<CrestedNewt> #action mhall119 - try and get an update on technology direction from Canonical
<meetingology> ACTION: mhall119 - try and get an update on technology direction from Canonical
<mhall119> so that we can tell him for sure whether Compiz+Nux or QML+(something) should be used for TV
<CrestedNewt> That would be fantastic! I really feel for him as he is doing a huge amount of work
<mhall119> as for the ISO, I don't know anything on that front
<mhall119> nor anything about "SVO"
<CrestedNewt> well if it is all change again, we can't even look at an ISO until there is something which is stable
<mhall119> agreed
<mhall119> what were you talking to ARM about?
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver wants to get a board to test TV on. I was looking for a manufacturer of ARM TV suitable boards in upstate NY to hopefully get him a 'test bed'
<mhall119> ah, ok
<CrestedNewt> either on loan or as a min spec board from this manufacturer
<CrestedNewt> so that when there is a working product, we could use that as the minimum spec for people to use for deployment - hope that makes sense
<mhall119> yeah, makes sense
<CrestedNewt> I'm trying to use my commercial skills to add value to the project
<CrestedNewt> Well, unless you have something else to add, should we wrap this up
<CrestedNewt> oh - is tgm4883 coming back?
<mhall119> what do you mean?
<CrestedNewt> yep tgm4883 has said that he is joining now
<mhall119> ah, cool
<CrestedNewt> btw, bobweaver has posted a question....
<CrestedNewt> http://askubuntu.com/questions/259583/where-to-find-ubuntu-application-and-libhud1-dev
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: I'll hunt down answers for that
<CrestedNewt> mhall119 - thanks :D
<CrestedNewt> well it looks like tgm4883 isn't coming in :(
<CrestedNewt> not much else to do then other than to wrap this up and meet up again next week
<CrestedNewt> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Feb 22 18:42:55 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-22-18.16.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-22-18.16.html
<mhall119> thanks CrestedNewt
<mhall119> I expect things will pick back up now that all the Touch work is public
<CrestedNewt> no worries! thanks for being here :D
<CrestedNewt> hopefully as I would really like this project to succeed
<CrestedNewt> OK, I'm off to make some dinner - have a great weekend all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-02-18
<padlock> hi
<jamespage> o/
<rcj> o/
<coreycb> o/
<arosales> o/
<smb> o/
<serue> \o
<jamespage> arosales, are you doing the penance chair then?
 * arosales will be kicking off the meeting in a couple of minutes as I forgot to send out the meeting minutes last week
<matsubara> o/
<lutostag> o/
<arosales> jamespage, yes :-/
<jamespage> arosales, ack
<arosales> one sec while I get the commands
 * jamespage dodges the chair for another week....
<beisner> o/
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 18 16:03:56 2014 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<arosales> I believe there were some from last week, let me grab those
<arosales>  gaughen follow up with jamespage on bug 1243076
<ubottu> bug 1243076 in mod-auth-mysql (Ubuntu Trusty) "libapache2-mod-auth-mysql is missing in 13.10 amd64" [High,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243076
<arosales>  gaughen follow up on dbus task for  bug 1248283
<ubottu> bug 1248283 in juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty) "juju userdata should not restart networking" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1248283
<arosales> jamespage to follow up on bug 1278897 (policy compliant)
<ubottu> bug 1278897 in dovecot (Ubuntu Trusty) "dovecot warns about moved ssl certs on upgrade" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1278897
<arosales> smoser update servercloud-1311-curtin bp
<smoser> i updated it .
<smoser> i'll file a ffe today
<arosales> hallyn follow up on 1248283 from an lxc pov, ping serue to coordinate
<serue> Done
<arosales> yes serge please follow up with yourself :-)
<serue> (commented as best i can there)
<arosales> smoser, serue thanks
 * jamespage is back after power blip
<arosales> smoser update cloud-init BP
<smoser> we'll say same there.
<arosales> smoser, thanks
<smoser> it is more up tod ate than last time.
<arosales> that is the outstanding actions
<arosales> gaughen, a few bugs outstanding for you
<arosales> jamespage, to follow up on bug 1278897 (policy compliant)
<ubottu> bug 1278897 in dovecot (Ubuntu Trusty) "dovecot warns about moved ssl certs on upgrade" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1278897
<jamespage> not got to that yet
<jamespage> working on a few pre-freeze items first
<arosales> ack I'll take its appropriately on your radar :-) --thanks
<jamespage> it is
<arosales> #topic Trusty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Trusty Development
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> Feature freeze this week !
<arosales> Feb 20th
<arosales> Beta1 freeze next week (feb 27)
<arosales> make sure your code is in or file a ffe
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<arosales> jamespage, smoser are there any particular bugs you would like to call out here or just walk the highs?
<jamespage> walk the highs
<arosales> ack
<arosales> https://bugs.launchpad.net/maas/+bug/1248283
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1248283 in juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty) "juju userdata should not restart networking" [High,Triaged]
<arosales> I think rbasak marked the dbus as invalid
<arosales> and juju-core has the bug targetted for 1.18 which should be in trusty in the next couple of weeks
<jamespage> indeed - speaking of which we need the FFe for juju-core
<jamespage> I'll do that
<arosales> jamespage thanks I think fwreade was also compiling a list of bugs and features that will be landing
<arosales> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/horizon/+bug/1259166
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1259166 in horizon (Ubuntu Trusty) "Fix lintian error" [High,Triaged]
<arosales> zul ^
<zul> havent gotten to it
<arosales> zul, ack. I'll take its on your radar appropriately
<arosales> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/neutron/+bug/1273877
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1273877 in neutron (Ubuntu Trusty) "neutron-plugin-nicira should be renamed to neutron-plugin-vmware" [High,Triaged]
<zul> arosales:  yep
<gaughen> o/
<arosales> jamespage are you the neutron resident expert still?
<jamespage> yeah - we need to get that in for the next o/s milestone
<jamespage> if someone wants to learn how todo a rename its a good example
<arosales> takers?
<arosales> also this one looks like a good opp
<arosales> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dovecot/+bug/1278897
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1278897 in dovecot (Ubuntu Trusty) "dovecot warns about moved ssl certs on upgrade" [High,Triaged]
<jamespage> that's the policy one
<jamespage> I don't think debconf is being used appropriately
<arosales> any folks interested in those two bugs?
<arosales> gaughen, could you follow up on those two for appropriate owners?
<jamespage> coreycb is going to pickup the rename
<arosales> #action follow upon bug 1273877
<meetingology> ACTION: follow upon bug 1273877
<ubottu> bug 1273877 in neutron (Ubuntu Trusty) "neutron-plugin-nicira should be renamed to neutron-plugin-vmware" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1273877
<arosales> thanks coreycb
<arosales> #subtopic Blueprints
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<arosales> jamespage, smoser any BPs you want to hit here?
<arosales> I think smoser said he was going to update his I called out last week
<smoser> i dont have any specifically.
<smoser> in general, people need to just be aware that thursday is feature freeze
<jamespage> I'll flag up the openstack charms one
<jamespage> charm work is always loaded to back cycle but there are alot of work items on that BP still
<jamespage> (and only one reviewer/lander right now)
<smoser> if you have features not in, you need to file FFE for those. or postpone.
<arosales> curtain, openstack charms, ceph, mysql alt, cloud-init, openstack (general) are all in the "red"
<arosales> be a good week to get BPs updated to reflect reality
<jamespage> mysql is OK - we have alot in the NEW queue awaiting AA review
<arosales> jamespage ack
<arosales> and I am sure ceph is ok
<jamespage> the only thing that might not make it is percona-server - I've just reviewed Perconas first version of packaging - but it needs a bit of work still
<arosales> smoser is following up on curtin and cloud-init
<jamespage> arosales, yeah - I  have a few WI's on that BP that will probably drop off post firefly release
<arosales> and you already called out openstack*
<jamespage> like all the mod_fastcgi stuff
<arosales> #action gaughen ensure BPs are updated
<meetingology> ACTION: gaughen ensure BPs are updated
<arosales> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<arosales> caribou doesn't look to be here
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa> hello from my side:
<psivaa> the same failures with smoke tests that i posted last week and they only need test code adjustments:
<psivaa> 1. tomcat (control port not starting to listen due to lack of entropy)
<psivaa> 2. test_mod_php on lamp server tests
<psivaa> 3. minimal virtual installs on amd64 bloarting by about 5 MB
<arosales> psivaa, Hello
<psivaa> arosales: hello ^
<psivaa> i can't do much of the testcode since server developers own it :)
<arosales> psivaa, did you try rbask suggestion re entropy from last week?
<arosales> and I think jamespage said you could bump the server size by 5mb
<psivaa> arosales: i haven't but as i said i can't push to the ubuntu-test-cases/server branch
<arosales> and I thought rbask acked the lamp tests?
<smoser> psivaa, do you have a merge proposal ?
<smoser> one of us can certainly merge it if you have one.
<psivaa> smoser: ok, i could do the MP's for the tomcat and the size issue and there is already an MP for the php failure
<psivaa> https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/mod_php-fix/+merge/204273 needs merging
<smoser> ok. thanks.
<psivaa> thank you and that's all from me
<arosales> psivaa, ok so hopefully we can get those resolved this week
<psivaa> arosales: ok
<arosales> psivaa, ping in ubuntu-sever if you need an ack
<arosales> psivaa, thanks
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Nothing from my side this week. If there are not questions. Or do you have something sforshee?
<sforshee> nope, nothing from me
<arosales> ack, looks like no questions
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> No new updates. Any questions?
<arosales> looks like no questions
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> Scale 12x later this week. marcoceppi and jcastro there giving talks, be sure to stop by if your in Los Angles
<arosales> https://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale12x
<arosales> any others??
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<arosales> any other topics
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<arosales> Tuesday 2014-02-25
<arosales> Thanks for everyone's time
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 18 16:38:03 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-02-18-16.03.moin.txt
<jamespage> thanks arosales - now don't forget to send round those minutes :-)
 * jamespage looks forward to next week
<arosales> jamespage, will do :-)
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 18 17:00:23 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<bjf> o/
<cking> \o
<sforshee> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Nothing new to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<rtg> o/
<ogasawara> dammit!!
<ogasawara> 2secs
 * smb runs in
<rtg> this could be the longest meeting ever
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1311-kernel                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-cross-compilation     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1311-kernel                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || servercloud-1311-openstack-virt || 6 work items ||
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> sorry :/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have packaged our 3.13.0-9.29 Trusty kernel and uploaded to our
<ogasawara> canonical-kernel-team ppa. This primarily pulls in the latest v3.13.3
<ogasawara> upstream stable updates. We have also started tracking the v3.14 kernel
<ogasawara> and have recently rebased our unstable branch to v3.14-rc3.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 20 - Feature Freeze (~2 dayss away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 27 - Beta 1 (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Mar 27 - Final Beta (~5 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Apr 03 - Kernel Freeze (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Nov. 26):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Prep'ing kernels
<bjf>   * Precise - Prep'ing kernels
<bjf>   * Quantal - Prep'ing kernels
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Prep'ing kernels
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 18 17:05:19 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-02-18-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury!
<miseria> "cuantos millones de humanos perderian su trabajo si un miserable salario minimo fuera mandatorio en el planeta?" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com *temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival*
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-02-19
<jared> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, and chilicuil. Meeting time.
<lunapersa> Hi jared
<Neo31> Hello folks :)
<jared> Hi lunapersa, just trying to see if any other board members are around. We need a total of 4 to make quorum
<elacheche> Hey guys :)
<lunapersa> ok :)
<elacheche> jared, cjohnston, cyphermox_ hggdh micahg PabloRubianes freeflying are online, but maybe are AFK :/
<jared> elacheche: it would seem so, I'm trying to rouse them in a back channel
<elacheche> :)
<jared> Well it seems I'm unable to find anyone else. In situations like this where the board hasn't had enough people to make quorum we have deliberated via mailing list instead so as not to make applicants wait another month.
<jared> lunapersa: apologies that we didn't have enough show up
<Guest7555> jared: how many do we have now?
<jared> Neo31 & elacheche I assume you're here to cheer lunapersa?
<jared> Guest7555: Just you and I
<Guest7555> jared: oh
<elacheche> yep jared that's true.. Wahid-TN too
<Neo31> yes jared
<Guest7555> jared: i was trying to correct my name
<jared> Wahid-TN:, Neo31 & elacheche : if you can please make your statement of support I will copy it in to the email.
<Guest7555> jared: using irssi from the cloud, with the profile
<jared> lunapersa: your application is strong so I don't want to make you wait another month :)
<Guest7555> without
<lunapersa> :)
<Guest7555> so we are going to do a email voting then?
<elacheche> jared, alredy <write testimonials to her wiki :) that'll help, isn't it?
<elacheche> jared, what ML you're talking about?? can I subscribe to be part of the discussion? or it's private?
<jared> lunapersa: if you're okay with it what I will do is email the list with your application page, the statements your supporters make and we will vote that way. We will make contact with you if we have any questions that aren't answered on your wiki page and will also let you know the outcome of the vote (which is usually only a day or two).
<jared> elacheche: you can email the list but unfortunately it's only for board members. So if you send an email we can read, but you're unable to read the whole conversation
<jared> The board's mailing list is ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com
<elacheche> Ok jared my statment is: LunaPersa is one of the most active members in Ubuntu-tn LoCo team and the Management Committee. She's very smart and helps our community to be more organized and have a better communication between members. As nizarus said in her wiki page "She deserves to be the first woman as Ubuntu member in Tunisia and the Arab world".- El AchÃ¨che ANIS, Ubuntu-tn MC Member & Ubuntu Member
<jared> elacheche: thank you, I will forward that on.
<elacheche> thank you jared :)
<Neo31> jared, I have already wrote a testimonial on luna's wiki page. I wanted to acknowledge her contributions and the importance of her work in Ubuntu-TN especially her communication and organization skills. I think she have done a lot of work for the community in general and deserves an official membership.
<Neo31> this is my testimonial on her wiki page " Luna is the heart of Ubuntu-TN that does her best to bring everybody together and push the community forward. She is one of the most active Ubuntu-TN members for more than three years now. I hope she keeps moving forward with our community and inspires the new members.
<Neo31>     - Ahmed Sghaier, Official Ubuntu Member & Ubuntu-TN LoCo Contact, 13-02-2014. "
<Neo31> Thank you jared :)
<jared> Neo31: thank you, also forwarded.
<lunapersa> that's ok :) jared,  thank you
<Goldenscorp> Ubuntu Luna is one of most active members in the ubuntu tn community. she's is characterized by sensibility and neutrality. she always listen carefully to everybody. she has a sense of organization and also has a magic touch in the community. she is one of the fewest girl active in it domain in Tunisia, also she participated actively in ubuntu-tn. i'm so proud to seen someome like her, that's why I re
<jared> lunapersa: if we have questions is the email address listed on your wiki application the best email to contact you on?
<lunapersa> yes
<jared> Thanks for that, just double checking.
<elacheche> So, is  that all jared?? It's the end of the "meeting" x)
<Neo31> good luck lunapersa :)
<jared> lunapersa: so I've sent the email to the team. Based on previous attempts it will usually take a couple of days to know the outcome (by the time we have enough people voting)
<lunapersa> thank you Neo31
<jared> You will hear from us if we have questions or to let you know of the outcome
<jared> Again my apologies on behalf of the team for being unable to process you application at the scheduled meeting.
<elacheche> Good luck lunapersa :) thank you jared :)
<lunapersa> jared no problem :) thank you  jared :)
<jared> elacheche, Neo31 & Goldenscorp, thank you for contributing to lunapersa's application
<lunapersa> thank you elacheche
<elacheche> jared, that's what family members should do ;) and we are a family @ #ubuntu-tn ;) :D
<jared> elacheche: good to hear, it looks like you run a few well attended events over there to, so well done.
<elacheche> Thx jared :)
<lunapersa> :)
<elacheche> jared, nizarus is here to support lunapersa too x)
<jared> Ah if people want to add further support they should email the mailing list
<jared> It will get a message back saying it's being held for moderation but we will be able to send it through that way
<jared> ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com
<nizarus> elacheche: hello ! I'm in time or late ?
<jared> I'm about to head AFK myself as I need to keep working on a uni assignment, but if anyone wants to add support or ask questions the mailing list will be able to assist.
<elacheche> Good :) So, nizarus there is no meeting.. the application will be discussed via the boards ml
<nizarus> ah i see elacheche
<Neo31> nizarus, you can leave a message with jared
<nizarus> Neo31: i wrote my testimonial in lunapersa wiki page
<jared> Ah, if it's on the wiki page then everyone will stillk be able to read it
<nizarus> jared: i fully support lunapersa nomination as ubuntu member :)
<nizarus> good luck lunapersa :) I'm sure you will get it ;)
<nizarus> have to go sorry :/
<lunapersa> thank you nizarus  for your support
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-02-20
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
 * cjwatson particles
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 20 16:02:02 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> doko stokachu cjwatson jodh bdmurray barry xnox slangasek stgraber
<slangasek> doko: here?
<doko> - working on python 3.4 as the default updates. still a few issues, pending pack
<doko> ages are: pystache, pyside. pytbles, aptdaemon, system-image
<doko> - transitions ...
<doko> - toolchain update
<doko> (done)
<caribou> slangasek: s/stokachu/caribou/
<stgraber> caribou: your turn then :)
<caribou> nothing particular on our side
<cjwatson> Finished first pass at HTTPS support in d-i (included giant base-installer merge which took a while).  Awaiting CTS feedback before backporting to precise.
<cjwatson> Spent most of the week in a cave hacking on libclick.  I now have over 4000 lines of C code, though a lot of it's quite formulaic translation work; should be within a week of landing this.  See FFe bug 1282311.
<ubottu> bug 1282311 in click (Ubuntu) "[FFe] libclick" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1282311
<cjwatson> Went through Debian auto-sync dry-run report looking for easy and reasonably safe bug-fix syncs.  Found nearly 100.
<cjwatson> Continued Debian TC discussions.
<cjwatson> ..
<jodh> * core-1311-cgroup-manager:
<jodh>   - upstart: async tests have identified a state machine bug in the async
<jodh>     branch which I'm currently investigating.
<jodh> * UDS
<jodh>   - Raised blueprints:
<jodh>     - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1403-systemd-transition
<jodh>     - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1403-session-init-systemd-migration
<jodh> * boot:
 * slangasek pokes the network
<jodh>   - Merged lp:~cameronnemo/upstart/ipv6.
<slangasek> so, how much of anything made it through before my network collapsed on me?
<jodh>   - Created basic https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers page.
<jodh> Ö
<stgraber> slangasek: 16:03 < slangasek> doko: here?
<stgraber> slangasek: I'll paste you the log
<slangasek> heh :)
<bdmurray> slangasek: nothing really
<slangasek> stgraber: nah, I'll grab it from irclogs.u.c
<stgraber> slangasek: ok
<bdmurray> tested issue with retracers and a core dump that retraced well for me but not in canonistack (precise version of gdb)
<bdmurray> research into failed to retrace bugs for seb128
<bdmurray> created a duplicate signature for kerneloops reports using linux package hook
<bdmurray> worked with ogasawara regarding oopstext and dupe signatures
<bdmurray> uploaded apport with dupesig changes to trusty
<bdmurray> updated apport to include package version in Package section of kerneloops crashes
<bdmurray> uploaded kerneloops enabled package to trusty
<bdmurray> emailed ubuntu-quality regarding kerneloops
<bdmurray> investigation into carriage return in errors buckets and querying of cassandra issue
<bdmurray> changed apport not to use a line feed in the duplicate signature for kerneloops'es
<bdmurray> fixed errors issue with characters in bucket ids pertinent to kerneloops reports
<bdmurray> research into package rate of crash changes for the phased-updater
<bdmurray> package rate of crashes work (setup test queries using cassandra.py)
<bdmurray> updated new and eol release tasks with error tracker information
<bdmurray> submitted a merge proposal for aptdaemon bug 1266844
<bdmurray> uploaded a fix for usb-creator bug 1259111
<ubottu> bug 1266844 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu) "crash in gtk3widgets.py: AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'append'" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1266844
<bdmurray> merge proposal to fix unattended-upgrades reboot dry-run bug
<ubottu> bug 1259111 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/usb-creator-gtk:UnboundLocalError:<lambda>:_device_changed:_udisks_obj_added:_udisks_partition_added" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259111
<bdmurray> patch pilot
<bdmurray> +1 maintenance
<bdmurray> SRU admin work with carges
<bdmurray> google hangout with server team manager regarding bug reports
<bdmurray> â done
<barry> system-image: LP: #1277589.  much testing, probably have a good fix in lieu of u-d-m patches.  struggling to get successful ppa build.  test suite problems with dbus-daemon that aren't evident in local sbuilds - trying again on devirt ppa, and if that doesn't work, i can sleep(2) my way around it i think.  update: looks like devirt doesn't help. :(  time 2 sleep, er. time.sleep(2)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1277589 in ubuntu-download-manager "Better protection against concurrent access" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1277589
<barry> ubu/deb: enum34 0.9.23-1
<barry> python: issue 20687 (expectedFailure regression affecting autopilot)
<barry> later today: hangout chat about py3 autopilot
<barry> done
<xnox> * assisting ci with queries about emulator (ci has work in progress to
<xnox>   drive emulator cloud instances to execute all tests and aggregate
<xnox>   results)
<xnox> * ongoing discussions about autpilot python3 migration:
<xnox>   - write up of the plan at
<xnox>   https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1311-python3-roadmap
<xnox>   - follow up chat between autopilot, qa, and foundations later today
<xnox> * frantically doing last-minute merges pre-FF + forwaring things to
<xnox>   debian as applicable. And patch-piloting interesting fixes.
<xnox> * completed all dmraid2mdadm patches, did not resolve migration path
<xnox>   for existing dmraid installation - requested feedback on
<xnox>   ubuntu-devel about it.
<xnox> * fixing up artwork in a few places for 14.04:
<xnox>   - lightdm logo (now dynamically generated)
<xnox>   - updated d-i logo (no more vintage)
<xnox>   - plymouth logo update pending design review (circle of friends must
<xnox>   be orange, not aubergine)
<xnox> * looking into reported boost test-suite failures, whilst it's
<xnox>   interesting to see how broken the test-suites are, some of these
<cjwatson> jodh: I made core-1403-session-init-systemd-migration depend on core-1403-systemd-transition, since systemd's session supervision support requires that systemd is pid 1
<xnox>   problems are upstream and not distribution/specific.
<xnox> * Working on testing grub-installer, to always honor the preseed
<xnox>   target device for grub installation. Will upload soon.
<xnox> ..
<jodh> cjwatson: thanks. core-1403-session-init-systemd-migration is arguably misnamed though iff we can find a way to emulate the events that the Session Init currently gets via the upstart-event-bridge.
<jodh> cjwatson: if that were possible, there would be no dependency.
<cjwatson> jodh: well, there's a bidirectional dependency that might be broken one way
<jodh> cjwatson: but clearly they are related, so I guess it makes sense for now :)
<cjwatson> jodh: but if we wanted to use systemd as the session init as well, then there is a dependency there
<jodh> cjwatson: ack
<cjwatson> i.e. your c)
<cjwatson> anyway, feel free to remove the dep if you feel appropriate, I just wanted a link to exist :)
<jodh> cjwatson: agreed
<slangasek> barry: do you want any more eyeballs on the system-image ppa build problem today?
<barry> slangasek: yes, please!  it would be nice to have a proper build and not depend on ugly sleeps
<slangasek> barry: ok, link me after the meeting please :)
<barry> slangasek: will do
<slangasek> barry, xnox: should I sit in on the python3 autopilot hangout later?
<barry> slangasek: sure
<slangasek>  * job description handed over to HR for the Java role
<slangasek>  * heavily focused on customer-facing work this week
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> ^^ if you know any java people, send 'em my way :)
<stgraber> LXC:
<stgraber>  - Released rc1, rc2, rc3 and rc4.
<stgraber>  - Prepared the release announcements, website update, ... for the final release later today.
<stgraber>  - Switched the LXC daily PPA to building with cgmanager by default.
<stgraber>  - Got all the tests passing both with and without cgmanager (found a couple of interesting issues in the process).
<stgraber>  - Finished my blog post series on LXC 1.0 just in time for release.
<stgraber>  - Fixed a ton of coverity reported issues and a few other bugs.
<stgraber>  - Code reviews and testing of last minute changes.
<stgraber> CGManager:
<stgraber>  - Tested cgmanager on all supported releases and now happily using it on precise!
<stgraber>  - Started working on patches to our logind so it can use cgmanager and skip cgroupfs entirely.
<stgraber> Other:
<stgraber>  - Fixed a couple of issues with shadow and user namespaces (don't give uid/gid ranges to system users and give 65536 uids by default to others).
<stgraber> (DONE)
<xnox> slangasek: if you have time, it might be interesting =) as some of us have conflicting opinions of what autopilot is and what's the long term future for python2-autopilot is.
<slangasek> xnox, barry: the whiteboard on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1311-python3-roadmap is a good starting point, but maybe it would help to have a wiki page writeup that goes into more detail, before the meeting, to explain how the outlined steps get us to where we want to be
<slangasek> any questions over status above?
<slangasek> caribou: sorry, irclogs.u.c is unhelpfully not refreshing for me, so I don't see if you had a chance to talk during the lightning round
<caribou> slangasek: yes I did, nothing particular at this time
<slangasek> ok
<barry> slangasek, cjwatson well, maybe the devirt ppa *did* work: https://launchpad.net/~barry/+archive/systemimage/+build/5621116
<slangasek> barry: ... "fun" :)
<slangasek> why do you people keep writing software that's sensitive to the differences between our different ppas, sheesh :)
<barry> slangasek: there are still a few dbus errors in the output, but these ones don't affect test suite.  shall we declare victory and move on? :)
<slangasek> barry: yes
<xnox> barry: you can do binary copy into the archive from de-virt ppa without recompilation =)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] FeatureFreeze
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: FeatureFreeze
<slangasek> speaking of moving on
<cjwatson> barry: random guesses 'r' us.  let's hope it isn't racy though
<slangasek> xnox: :P
<barry> cjwatson: i'm very good at hitting "retry" :)
<slangasek> I don't think there was any pre-announcement of it this time around, but lo, today is the feature freeze for trusty
<xnox> slangasek: i have a few packages that do [ -e /CurrentlyBuilding ] &&
<slangasek> so, y'know, adjust your uploading accordingly
<xnox> slangasek: so what's the qt5.2 status w.r.t. FF then?
<barry> xnox: that's the thing. it *only* fails on the virt ppas
<slangasek> a very good question
 * barry blames hardy
<slangasek> there are certainly a number of packages that we're looking for standing FFes for wrt the phone
<slangasek> I think we still need to get qt5.2 in... but it's obviously not made it in before the FF
<slangasek> I'll be checking with ScottK to understand how this impacts the non-phone
<xnox> barry: re-autopilot a list of all affected packages/branches would be good: e.g. emulators and clicks.
<xnox> slangasek: right, there are very little Qt5 !touch packages in the archive.
<barry> xnox: i had that once, before the london rain washed it all away.  will try to resurrect it
<slangasek> xnox: any chance you can tell at a glance which ones are !touch?  I couldn't work it out from the names alone
<xnox> slangasek: however, KDE Framework5 is planned to be released shortly after 14.04 and it is expected that kubuntu will want to provide 5.2 based framework5 via blessed kubuntu PPAs.
<xnox> slangasek: i'll do that quickly.
<slangasek> xnox: ok, so it's to their advantage to have 5.2 in and stable for 14.04, and it won't (in theory) disrupt anything they're currently working on
<xnox> slangasek: correct.
<slangasek> good to hear - we'll still want to confirm that with the kubuntu team directly, but at least it sounds like we have a way forward in spite of the late landing
<slangasek> [TOPIC] UDS
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UDS
<slangasek> UDS is only 3 weeks away
<slangasek> while it's ok to not have a lot of new discussion sessions mid-cycle - I'm sure we all have plenty of work items still from the blueprints at last UDS - if you *do* have topics you think we need to discuss, please get the blueprints registered this week
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> fwiw, see your email regarding an upcoming sprint that's being planned
<slangasek> the dates are a bit awkward for those in the US/UK
<slangasek> any questions, you can grab me on mumble or IRC :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 20 16:38:51 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-02-20-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<czajkowski> aloha
<czajkowski> cprofitt: dholbach mhall119 ping
<cub> hi
<mhall119> here
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 20 17:02:10 2014 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<czajkowski> aloha and welcome to this weeks Community Council meeting
<dholbach> o/
<czajkowski> this weeks meeting we're meeting with Xubuntu folks
<czajkowski> anyone here from the team ?
 * cprofitt raises hand
<cprofitt> just made it
* czajkowski changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Catch up
<cprofitt> not from the Xubuntu team though
<czajkowski> anyone here from the Xubuntu team ?
<czajkowski> if not we can move onto the next item and come back
* czajkowski changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio
<czajkowski> Anyone here from the Ubuntu studio ?
<cub> o/
<czajkowski> cub: aloha there
<cub> though I had hoped zequence would make it.
<mhall119> hi cub
<cub> hi all
<czajkowski> cub: so how are things?
<cprofitt> hello cub
<czajkowski> cub: are you able to fill us in on how things are going ?
<dholbach> is Xubuntu ready for Feature Freeze? :)
<cub> Well, the team is quite small at the moment. I believe only zequence and Ovenwerks are doing the development, madeinkobaia (art lead) is working on the new look for Trusty
<cub> Myself have been focusing on getting the accessibility working for the iso installation
<dholbach> oh... sorry - we're talking about Ubuntu Studio right now?
<cub> I was writing about Ubuntu Studio, yes.
<dholbach> sorry about that... I got a bit confused :)
<cub> There was discussions and plans to work more the Studio workflows but time and resources have been scarce so
<dholbach> in that case... did the Ubuntu Studio team get everything in they needed before the Feature Freeze?
<cub> As far as I know, yes.
<cub> I'm not entirely up to date though.
<cub> So perhaps zequence had something with the -controls left, I'm not sure.
<cub> There have been some issues with the low latency kernel and booting the iso's, I know zequence is involved in that
<dholbach> Did you get feedback from testers of trusty already? Are they happy so far?
<cub> all testing that has been done have been within the team
<cub> we have got some good feedback from the community on applications to include
<cub> but no feedback on direct testing so far.
<dholbach> ok
<cub> Then again, Ubuntu Studio is not part of the Alpha releases so it's Daily releases until Beta
<czajkowski> cub: nods good to know
<dholbach> ah ok, makes sense
<dholbach> do you feel the team got everything worked out you planned for this cycle? or is on track?
<cub> I believe so, the plans were narrowed down.
<cub> As FF is today, myself will focus on looking into the release management as smartboyhw left earlier to focus on his studies.
<cub> I know the Xubuntu team has good progress on the automatic tests..?
<cub> I think Ubuntu Studio could make use of that too, especially since we usually have a small number of tests outside of the team
<dholbach> yeah, I think I saw a merge proposal by elfy for some tests somewhere, but I might be misremembering
<cub> Exactly, elfy and zequence had some discussions
<czajkowski> cub: is there anything the CC can help the team with ?
<cub> As for when the release draws closer, we started out earlier to make plans to make more use of Youtube for turotials
<cub> At the moment I think it's on track
<cub> So, as far as I know, there nothing on the agenda to bring up to the CC.
<czajkowski> cub: thank you for taking the time to come and talk to us
<czajkowski> any other questions folks?
<dholbach> keep up the good work - I'm sure 14.04 is going to be a great release for Ubuntu Studio!
<cprofitt> yes, thanks for the updates cub please continue your efforts
<cub> Thank you!
* czajkowski changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<czajkowski> Anyone want to bring any questions up to the CC while we're here
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 20 17:25:57 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-02-20-17.02.moin.txt
<czajkowski> thank you folks
<zequence> I'm a bit late, it seems :)
<cub> =)
<zequence> On getting everything in for FF, I'm still waiting to get ubuntustudio-live sponsored
<zequence> dholbach: ^
<dholbach> can you ask in #ubuntu-devel to get this sponsored? I won't have time today to look into this :/
<zequence> dholbach: np
<dholbach> thanks!
<CommandNx_2_16> so?
<CommandNx_2_16> hi!
<CommandNx_2_16> =-O
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-02-21
<miseria> "nunca trates de abarcar el mundo con las dos manos, al final de tus dias, te quedaras sin manos y sin mundo" *bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com *temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival*
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-02-23
<PerfM> Hey, friends.
<PerfM> Is this like a circus ground?
<PerfM> Dibs on being the person who does all that flippy, up in the air, my legs are behind my head, I bet you thought this was impossible shit
<PerfM> circus olay (sp?) amirite
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-02-16
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<xnox> Yo =)
<bdrung_work> o/
<davmor2> Laney: US holiday so you might get stgraber after :)
 * stgraber waves
<Laney> #startmeeting DMB 2015-02-16
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb 16 15:03:35 2015 UTC.  The chair is Laney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-02-16 Meeting | Current topic:
<Laney> greetings
<Laney> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-02-16 Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<Laney> #subtopic Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney)
<Laney> sorry I didn't do this :(
<Laney> #action Laney to amend https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess#Debian_Developers_applying_for_Per-Package_upload_rights to apply to DM too
<meetingology> ACTION: Laney to amend https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess#Debian_Developers_applying_for_Per-Package_upload_rights to apply to DM too
<Laney> #subtopic Status of Jackson Doak's (email) application
<Laney> umm...
<Laney> AFAIK only ScottK and I have voted for this one
<Laney> what's preventing the rest of you?
<Laney> (he keeps pinging)
<xnox> Laney: i'm siding between -1 or 0 (obstaining)
<Laney> just vote, whatever it is :-)
<xnox> Laney: unfortunately, I think I'm biased on this application due to past experience with Jackson. Maybe it can get a fresh look with newly elected DMB members.
<xnox> (it being his application)
 * bdrung_work has a too huge email backlog.
<Laney> bleh
<Laney> please find the time, not fair to make people wait for this long
<Laney> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-02-16 Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
 * bdrung_work has to find the email thread
<Laney> #topic utlemming's application for PPU and Cloud Image Package set
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-02-16 Meeting | Current topic: utlemming's application for PPU and Cloud Image Package set
<Laney> utlemming: yo
<Laney> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/utlemming/PackageSet
<utlemming> Hello :)
<Laney> can you briefly introduce your application?
<utlemming> Sure
<utlemming> The purpouse of this package set is to support the use of Ubuntu Cloud Images and there use
<utlemming> For some time we have been producing Cloud Images that work on Vagrant, as well as watching after tooling
<utlemming> This package set was put together to watch after that use case.
<Laney> looks like these are packages which you use to work with various clouds/instances from the outside, rather than stuff which is actually installed in the images themselves, right?
<utlemming> A little bit of both, actually
<utlemming> Open-vm-tools and Virtualbox have compotents that get installed in the images.
<utlemming> While Vagrant and the API tools are used to manipulate a running instance.
<utlemming> WALinuxAgent is used for bootstrapping Windows Azure instances.
<utlemming> And Cloud-init it is the real meet of a cloud-image. I try to get all the special sauce for the Cloud-images into Cloud-init.
<Laney> ack
<Laney> bdrung_work / xnox / stgraber: any qs at this point?
<bdrung_work> utlemming, is there any collaboration between Debian and Ubuntu on these packages?
<xnox> utlemming: what is the overlap between "traditional" cloud-init cloud image and a snappy image?
<xnox> utlemming: or rather overlap between proposed packageset and snappy images.
<utlemming> bdrung_work: great question -- the short answer is that I have tried to work with Debian on that. I have reached out multiple times on WALinuxAgent. However, Microsoft considers us the upstream on that. I have been working with the Vagrant community, to get some changes upstream to Debian.
<utlemming> xnox: there is a little overlap for Snappy. Cloud-init is core to snappy, and _all_ the special sauce needs to be there. We are trying to roll everything into Cloud-init to support Snappy. For example, I am working with VMware to try to get Snappy support.
<xnox> utlemming: how do you perform testing, especially for something like cloud-init which has a huge test-matrix given number of ubuntu releases X environment types X environment providers?
<xnox> anything you can share to achive good coverage? And does it benefit other parts of Ubuntu? (e.g. Core)
<utlemming> xnox: automation...there is simply no other way. I've been working to expose that information publicaly (i.e. cloud.qa.ubuntu.com just appeared two weeks ago [thanks stgraber]). The team is working on building images from proposed, and starting with 15.04, images are being built in Launchpad.
<utlemming> xnox: right now we build cloud imags based on archive changes, and we are going to get that extended to building from proposed. The vision is to spot when a change in the -proposed pocket happens and then kick a build to automated testing. From there, we will have a process that flags when something goes wrong.
<utlemming> xnox: and for the kernel, we are actively working with the kernel team to pre-test changes before the kernel even hits -proposed on all the major clouds.
<xnox> very good.
<Laney> #chair xnox
<meetingology> Current chairs: Laney xnox
<Laney> (brb)
<utlemming> xnox: the benefit here to core is that the cloud gives us the flexiability and "elastisity" to be able to spot problems before they ever hit the archive. My goal is to make sure that Ubuntu -proposed is stable for our Cloud users and by extension, the server, core and desktop users (as far as the overlap goes)
<xnox> Laney: wtf?! =)
<xnox> stgraber: any questions from you?
<stgraber> nope
<xnox> bdrung_work: ?
 * xnox is lingering time until laney is back.
 * xnox is out of questions
<Laney> utlemming: We like to have each packageset have a description that allows you to come back to the DMB via email in future when you want new packages added
<Laney> So that we can say 'ah yes, this fits' and add stuff with no fuss
<Laney> can we come up with one for the cloud set?
<utlemming> Laney: how about "Packages for the creation and use of Ubuntu Cloud Images and derivatives"?
<bdrung_work> utlemming, how you decide the set of clouds to test Ubuntu on? what is needed to run tests on a new cloud?
<Laney> "Packages required to create, bootstrap, use or configure Ubuntu Cloud images and their derivatives"?
<utlemming> bdrung_work: generally, if the cloud is automatable and we have accounts. AWS, Azure, GCE and Openstack (which cover the vast majority of instances) are the prime clouds. If we can create an instance and then throw it away and get the results, we'll test on it.
<utlemming> Laney: I like your description better :)
<Laney> great
<Laney> I'm done with qs
<Laney> bdrung_work: xnox: stgraber: more questions? or vote?
<stgraber> I'm ready to vote
<Laney> right
<Laney> silence is assent from the rest of you
<Laney> give me one minute to make this #vote line
<Laney> #vote Create ubuntu-cloud packageset with initial package list cloud-init ec2-api-tools ec2-ami-tools rds-cli iam-cli awscli joyent-mdata-client elasticache ascli open-vm-tools vagrant virtualbox walinuxagent, initial uploader utlemming and description "Packages required to create, bootstrap, use or configure Ubuntu Cloud images and their derivatives"
<meetingology> Please vote on: Create ubuntu-cloud packageset with initial package list cloud-init ec2-api-tools ec2-ami-tools rds-cli iam-cli awscli joyent-mdata-client elasticache ascli open-vm-tools vagrant virtualbox walinuxagent, initial uploader utlemming and description "Packages required to create, bootstrap, use or configure Ubuntu Cloud images and their derivatives"
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<Laney> oh hi micahg-work
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung_work
 * Laney looks at xnox 
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<Laney> ta
<Laney> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Create ubuntu-cloud packageset with initial package list cloud-init ec2-api-tools ec2-ami-tools rds-cli iam-cli awscli joyent-mdata-client elasticache ascli open-vm-tools vagrant virtualbox walinuxagent, initial uploader utlemming and description "Packages required to create, bootstrap, use or configure Ubuntu Cloud images and their derivatives"
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> utlemming: congrats
<utlemming> Thank you! I appreciate the consideration, and look forward to making Ubuntu better in the cloud
<Laney> stgraber: can you do the honours?
<stgraber> Laney: yeah, I'll take care of it
<Laney> thx
<Laney> #action stgraber to set up ubuntu-cloud set
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to set up ubuntu-cloud set
<Laney> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB 2015-02-16 Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<Laney> voting is on ;-)
<Laney> going once
<Laney> going twice
<Laney> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Feb 16 15:56:00 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-16-15.03.moin.txt
<tyhicks> There will be no Ubuntu Security Team meeting today
<tyhicks> pop into #ubuntu-hardened if you had anything to discuss
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-02-17
 * arosales waiting for folks to join before kicking off the Ubuntu Server Team meeting . .  ..
<gaughen> o/
<arges> o/
<caribou> o/
<smb> \o
<arosales> alright 2 minute past on my side lets get started
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 17 16:02:27 2015 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
 * arosales doesn't see any action points from last meeting
<arosales> #info no action items from previous meeting
<beisner> o/
<arosales> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> Feature Freeze this thursday
<arosales> beta1 following thursday
<arosales> everyone got their features in or an FFE filled ?
<arosales> #action [all] Ensure features are in or file FFE
<meetingology> ACTION: [all] Ensure features are in or file FFE
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<arosales> ubuntu-server not looking too bad in the bug list
<arosales> 3 bugs total
<arosales> one high
<arosales> #link http://launchpad.net/bugs/1409639
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1409639 in juju-core (Ubuntu Vivid) "juju needs to support systemd for >= vivid" [High,Triaged]
<arosales> looks like the high one is for Juju
<arosales> I'll ping the juju-core devs on filling a FFE, looks like last comment (1-15) was to scope this out
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openvpn/+bug/1385851 -- medium
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1385851 in openvpn (Ubuntu Vivid) "OpenVPN only supports TLS v1.0" [Medium,Confirmed]
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nginx/+bug/1098654  -- low
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1098654 in nginx (Ubuntu Vivid) "nginx vulnerable to MITM Attack [CVE-2011-4968]" [Low,Confirmed]
<arosales> if others are interested in following the other 2 bugs
<arosales> #action [arosales] to follow up with juju-core devs on lp:1409639
<meetingology> ACTION: [arosales] to follow up with juju-core devs on lp:1409639
<arosales> #subtopic Blueprints
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<arosales> looks like 3 blueprints listed here
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-openstack-charms is in red
<arosales> gnuoy: looks like you got the lead on this one.  Still tracking ok?
<gnuoy> yes, working through it
<arosales> gnuoy: great, thanks
<arosales> no severity set for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-server-core
<arosales> rbasak: General sever work tracking ok for the release?
<rbasak> We had to postpone a few bits.
<rbasak> The blueprint is up to date though.
<arosales> rbasak: thanks
<rbasak> I'm (still) working on MySQL 5.6. I think it'll make it though.
<arosales> rbasak: good to hear
<arosales> and zul https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-v-openstack-kilo is non-red any comments?
<zul> need to update it
<arosales> zul: ok
<arosales> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> arosales: nothing on my radar for this week
<arosales> caribou: ok, thanks for joining
<arosales> #info no agenda items for Server & Cloud Bugs
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<hallyn> ok, so,
<hallyn> should we drop this item?  we no longer have a contact point, really,
<hallyn> beisner: ^ do you want to take on this topic?
<hallyn> you can bring up any known outstanding failures...
<beisner> hi all
<hallyn> in which case arosales should take an action to change this ^ in the agenda :)
<beisner> matsubara and I have been working to review the tests in the CI and QA teams which are server-centric.
<arosales> if beisner agrees I certainly can :-)
<beisner> there is a transition happening now on that, so no news to report atm.
<hallyn> "(beisner|matsubara)" perhaps
<arosales> #action [arosales] update QA contact to beisner | matsubara
<meetingology> ACTION: [arosales] update QA contact to beisner | matsubara
<hallyn> beisner: thanks
<beisner> yes i'd say it is safe to remove psivaa
<beisner> thank you
<arosales> #action beisner | matsubara confirm QA contact
<meetingology> ACTION: beisner | matsubara confirm QA contact
<arosales> beisner: thanks for the update
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Nothing from the kernel side right now. From the Xen side the last libvirt update caused some new issues which I will fix. Ideally when rebuilding libvirt and qemu after moving Xen to 4.5. Not sure I get the final review done before FF.
<hallyn> smb: there's an issue with vlans in trusty 3.13 kernel, fwiw
<smb> hallyn, got a bug #
<hallyn> not yet, asked thereporter if he minded opening a bug
<hallyn> just a heads-up
<smb> hallyn, ok thanks
<hallyn> smb,
<hallyn> what does "Ideally when rebuilding libvirt and qemu after moving Xen to 4.5." mean?
 * smb thinks he is using vlans with trusty
<hallyn> are you asking for us to do something different when uplaoding those?
<smb> hallyn, Just that I have to do no-change-rebuild after updating xen
<hallyn> oh, ok - thx.  btw, https://lists.linuxcontainers.org/pipermail/lxc-users/2015-February/008542.html
<smb> hallyn, Though a quick ping on irc when changing libvirt or qemu would be nice as well
<hallyn> (is the original vlan bug report)
<hallyn> smb: ok.
<smb> hallyn, it was a bit like playing whack-a-dpkg to keep my ppa current lately ;)
<arosales> smb: thanks for the update.
<arges> hallyn: bug 1410852 ^^
<ubottu> bug 1410852 in lxc "restarting container with a vlan interface results in kernel stack trace" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1410852
<arges> is that it?
<arosales> hallyn: may I give you an action to follow up on the issues with vlan in trusty 3.13 bug with smb?
<arosales> or is that the one from arges :-)
<hallyn> arosales: i'm just asking for it to be reproted against th ekernel :)
<arges> hallyn: i can target that bug to linux, if that's the right one
<hallyn> arges: looks like same bug, different reporter
<arosales> hallyn: understood
<arges> hallyn: ack
<hallyn> arges: cool, thanks
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> any events folks have coming up?
<arosales> If folks are in Los Angeles there is scale, http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale/13x
<arosales> I think kirkland, jcastro, and marcoceppi are giving talks there
<arosales> http://strataconf.com/big-data-conference-ca-2015 also this week, if folks are on the west coast and interested in big data
<arosales> and finally http://www-01.ibm.com/software/websphere/events/impact/ is in a week in las vegas if folks are interested in learning more about Ubuntu Server on Power
<arosales> any other events, meetups etc.?
<arosales> . . .
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<arosales> Any other topics?
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<arosales> Tuesday 2015-02-24 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<arosales> thanks for joining
<beisner> thanks, arosales
<caribou> thanks arosales
<kickinz1> Thanks
<arosales> np, glad to
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 17 16:29:47 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-17-16.02.moin.txt
<arges> o/
<ppisati> o/\o <- high five
<ogasawara> heh
<ogasawara> that makes me happy :)
<arges> : )
<chiluk> someone start it.
<smb>  /o\
<bjf> o/
<cking> \o
<chiluk> ^o^
<kamal> \_o_/
<ogasawara> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 17 17:02:15 2015 UTC.  The chair is ogasawara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ogasawara> muahahah
<chiluk> ^o^
<chiluk> ^^ I am batman
<ogasawara> Uhhhh, I don't have jsalisbury's runes, but we know the drill...
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We are in the process of rebasing our Vivid kernel to v3.18.7 upstream
<ogasawara> stable.  We'll try to get it uploaded today.  We would also like to push
<ogasawara> the v3.19 based kernel we have up to the archive asap.  We are still
<ogasawara> cleaning up some remaining DKMS drivers before we do.  For anyone
<ogasawara> interested in getting an early preview, we have a v3.19 based kernel
<ogasawara> available for testing in our ckt PPA.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 19 - 14.04.2 Point Release (~2 days away, yes this was
<ogasawara> delayed)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 26 - Beta 1 Freeze (~1 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Mar 26 - Fina l Beta (~5 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Apr 09 - Kernel Freeze (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> I think bjf is up...
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current cycle had ended. Waiting for next cycle to start on Feb. 08.
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 06-Feb through 28-Feb
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          06-Feb   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 08-Feb - 14-Feb   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 15-Feb - 28-Feb   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<ogasawara> Anyone have anything to discuss?  Raise your hand o/.
<ogasawara> ok, thanks everyone
<ogasawara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 17 17:05:22 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-17-17.02.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks ogasawara
<ppisati> thanks ogasawara
<cking> indeedy
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-02-19
<elfy> hi chilicuil
<elfy> chilicuil: did you go any further with the forum issue yet?
<chilicuil> elfy: hey elfi, not yet, I've comment it to the team though, we're still evaluating alternatives, thanks for the follow up =)
<elfy> you're welcome - not often I'm actually up when I see you join channel(s)
<sil2100> o/
<mvo> hi
<barry> \o
<jodh> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<caribou> o/
<mvo> steve and I are in a call still
<barry> ah
<mvo> should end soon i hope
<jodh> I'm in that call too :)
<mvo> oh, sorry
<mvo> indeed
 * barry can start the meeting
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 19 16:03:12 2015 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mvo> thanks barry
<barry> give me a few moments folks...
<infinity> o/
<barry> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<barry> echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)
<barry> sil2100 caribou robru doko slangasek stgraber mvo barry jodh bdmurray infinity cyphermox
<barry> sil2100: you're up!
 * cyphermox is starting to think shuf knows about him, and sorts 'cy' towards the end.
<sil2100> Oh!
<sil2100> I didn't expect that
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Trying to debug/triage some of the strange CI Train problems sighted on Friday
<caribou> sil2100: I can start if you want
<sil2100> - Promotion of the RC image for the ww07-2015 milestone
<sil2100> - Documenting the ww07-2015 milestone on the reports page
<sil2100> - Attending RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Tending the ww09-2015 milestone, coordinating landings and fixes
<sil2100> - Experimenting with custom tarball creation for ubuntu-rtm mako * Poking around and learning about apparmor cache re-creation
<sil2100> - Archive diff automated scripts * Implemented proper deep version differencing between archives * Made the binary -> source conversion more efficient
<sil2100> - Improve error handling for commitlog generation
<sil2100> - A short patch-pilot duty
<sil2100> (done)
<caribou> Bugfix:
<sil2100> hm, it pasted strangely
<caribou>  - Upload of Firmware assisted dump support for ppc64el to Vivid (LP: #1415562)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1415562 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Ubuntu 15.04] Support firmware assisted dump on ppc64le" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1415562
<caribou> - CUPS : SRU for bug #1352809 (-h override)
<ubottu> bug 1352809 in cups (Ubuntu Utopic) "/usr/bin/lp on Trusty using -h option doesn't work as expected" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352809
<caribou> - rsyslog memory leak (LP: #1423586)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1423586 in rsyslog (Ubuntu Trusty) "Please backport memory leak fixes present up to 7.4.6" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1423586
<caribou>  - libvirtd lost floating IP
<caribou> Prepare CTS sprint
<caribou> Work on deja-dup FTBS (test needs fixing)
<caribou> (done)
<robru> * Train:
<robru>   - ported test suite from nose to nose2 at barry's recommendation
<robru>   - fixed a couple of unhandled exceptions in rare corner cases discovered in last weeks' build.py rewrite
<robru>   - started a branch for pushing merged branches to LP at build time instead of publish time (but didn't land this yet)
<robru>   - started generating full silo content diffs at build time
<robru>   - in response to disk space crisis, added a cleanup step that deletes extra copies of built packages after they're no longer needed (eg, versions from distro are downloaded for diffing, and then those get left around taking up space; deleting them halves the silo disk usage after diffs are generated)
<robru>   - discovered a case where two silos containing the same package were published at the same time; the usual check that prevents this failed due to a race condition, experimented with a branch to resolve this but it's incomplete.
<robru>   - removed the mandatory 5 minute pause at the start of the watch phase; this has no effect on builds but speeds up WATCH_ONLY runs on already-built silos from 5 minutes to 20 seconds.
<robru>   - merged watch_ppa.py into build.py because it no longer made sense for those modules to be separate (watch_ppa.py contained a lot of boilerplate that duplicated what was already handled better by the new build.py; merging them resulted in the watch_ppa.py logic taking up half as many lines of code with no feature regressions)
<robru>   - streamlined a couple untested packagemanager.py functions and wrote tests for them
<robru>   - modified build.py to start recording the revno of the branch it merges, and modified publisher.py to check these revnos and prevent publication if a branch contains a new, unbuilt revno.
<robru>   - attempted running the test suite under py3 and started fixing the easiest of bugs, however there's a large class of unicode bugs I've yet to understand.
<barry> robru: \o/
<barry> robru: feel free to ping me about those
<barry> i think doko is not here today
<barry> slangasek: are you ready or should we come back to you?
<robru> barry: yeah I need to read about unicode, I do not understand it very well atall
<barry> robru: i have some excellent links and resources i'll pass along
<robru> barry: thanks
<barry> let's come back to slangasek
<sak> 51 minutes until the meeting
<barry> stgraber: are you here today?
<mvo> robru: very impressive list :)
<robru> mvo: thanks ;-)
<barry> let's come back to stgraber, tho i'm not sure he's here today
<barry> mvo: you're up if you want, or we can come back
<mvo> click:
<mvo> - merge review feedback from barry, thanks!
<mvo> - New click 0.4.37, mostly SDK fixes
<mvo> growisosfs:
<mvo> - merge fix for blue-ray burning bts #713016 (LP: #113679) + SRU
<mvo> unattended-upgrades:
<mvo> - Review/merge fix for #1422345 and upload new version (thanks Brian!)
<mvo> snappy:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 113679 in xorg-server (Ubuntu Dapper) "xorg freezes when running openoffice" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/113679
<mvo> - prepare new alpha3 with snappy-go as part of the release
<mvo> - lots of features/fixes/improvements for snappy-go
<mvo>   (include fixes to make the code go vet/go-lint clean)
<mvo> - spec/implemented snappy config (with examples)
<mvo> (done)
<mvo> eh, thats not the right bugnumber
<slangasek> barry: right, hi, here now :)
<slangasek> but I have nothing written ;-D
<mvo> bug #11133679
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 11133679 could not be found
<barry> slangasek: no worries, we'll come back to you
<barry> short week due to usa holiday.
<barry> si: LP: #1421434.  LP: #1387719.  lots of testing for 3.0 release.  built 3.0 package for citrain; testing and debugging build failures.  started to look at the server code; filed one mp with more to come.  (server needs some changes to support si 3.0)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1421434 in Ubuntu system image "Ensure reactor listens for signals on the correct object path" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1421434
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1387719 in Ubuntu system image "Update useragent to contain the current channel name, device name and build id" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387719
<barry> other: click reviews for mvo.  lots of discussion upstream and elsewhere about python zip file distributions (single-file executables).  investigated several tools.  began working with pex.
<barry> debuntu: debian bug 778708 (pex ITP)
<ubottu> Debian bug 778708 in wnpp "ITP: python-pex -- library for generating Python executable zip files" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/778708
<barry> --done--
<mvo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dvd+rw-tools/+bug/1113679
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1113679 in dvd+rw-tools (Ubuntu Utopic) "Close session failed when burning 25gb blu-ray disc" [Undecided,In progress]
<mvo> barry: \o/ for the reviews
<barry> mvo: np!  ping me if you need more
<barry> jodh: are you around today?
<mvo> barry: there are still some open but no real rush
<jodh> * snappy:
<jodh>   - Reworked bug 1412737 after discovering the original code didn't work
<ubottu> bug 1412737 in snappy-ubuntu "snappy on grub systems should detect a broken boot and fall back to the other root partition on power cycling." [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1412737
<jodh>     in a chroot:
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/snappy/bug-1412737/+merge/249976
<jodh>   - Wrote a "Snappy Image Tests" doc that documents the tests to run for
<jodh>     a promotion candiate:
<jodh>     https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/1R_Tw0N0QbEpjFeYf9XnVV8Gp8ldT2Ig0PO6MfR-kuSM/edit
<jodh>   - Investigated an issue raised on #snappy (bug 1423529) that uncovered a couple of
<ubottu> bug 1423529 in snappy-ubuntu "writable partitions not fsck'd." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1423529
<jodh>     initramfs bugs. Tested fix and awaiting comments:
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/ubuntu/vivid/initramfs-tools-ubuntu-core/bug-1423529
<jodh>   - Code reviews and MP prep.
<jodh>   - Promotion candidate testing.
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>   - perf review admin.
<jodh> â½
<barry> mvo: cool.  i'll take a look while my long friggin' tests are running :)
<mvo> barry: hehe
<bdmurray> investigation into errors oops regarding event greenlets
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have staging version of gunicorn updated
<bdmurray> tested backport of gunicorn to precise in canonistack (good)
<bdmurray> tested gunicorn update on staging / production version of daisy and errors FEs (good)
<bdmurray> review of Error Tracker OOPS reports, setup exception handling for LP not returning JSON
<bdmurray> pinged webops regarding kicking retracers
<bdmurray> foundations bug triage
<bdmurray> submitted git pull request to upstream unattended-upgrades fixing LP: #1422345
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1422345 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "stop being nice does not work" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1422345
<bdmurray> uploaded unattended-upgrades fix for LP: #1422345 to T and U
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager fix for LP: #1421044
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1421044 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Too easy to accidentally restart computer when 'restart to complete update' box pop up" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1421044
<bdmurray> uploaded a fix for ubuntu-release-upgrade KDE frontend bug (LP: #1423279)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1423279 in One Hundred Papercuts "[vivid] [proposed] syntax error while upgrading" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1423279
<bdmurray> SRU verification of whoopsie Utopic fix for LP: #1217407
<mvo> bdmurray: \o/ for the unattended-upgrades fix!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1217407 in whoopsie (Ubuntu Utopic) "whoopsie spams the log with "online" messages" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1217407
<bdmurray> SRU verification of apport Utopic fix for LP: #1084979
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084979 in apport (Ubuntu Utopic) "Submitting error report asks confounding questions" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084979
<bdmurray> recreated and reported apport bug LP: #1423382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1423382 in apport (Ubuntu) "unable to use apport to report a bug from point release Live CDs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1423382
<bdmurray> pinged cyphermox regarding merge proposal for bug LP: #1325801
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1325801 in Ubuntu CD Images "failed to boot from USB disk with error: gfxboot.c32: not a COM32R Image boot:" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1325801
<bdmurray> performance review
<bdmurray> short week due to Monday Holiday
<bdmurray> â done
<infinity> Last week:
<infinity>  - Was at Linaro Connect all week, good sessions, good conversations
<infinity>  - Got a new ARMv8 board to play with, when I find some "spare" time
<infinity> This week:
<infinity>  - Point release, point release, point release, point release!
<infinity>  - Some kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity>  - General SRU and AA reviews and maintenance
<infinity> (done)
<cyphermox>  * partman-auto upload as per last week
<cyphermox>  * continued investigation on ppc64el bootloader installation issue.
<cyphermox>  * Patch pilot on Monday: grub-installer, live-build, resiprocate
<cyphermox>  * Fixed minor bug in network-manager-openconnect.
<cyphermox>  * Reviewed/looked into bug 1422924.
<cyphermox>  * Reviewed MP for usb-creator bug 1325801
<ubottu> bug 1422924 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Revert latest nm" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1422924
<ubottu> bug 1325801 in Ubuntu CD Images "failed to boot from USB disk with error: gfxboot.c32: not a COM32R Image boot:" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1325801
<cyphermox>  * Discussed debian-installer arm64 changes with dannf.
<cyphermox>  * Looked into bug 1422864 in ubiquity with infinity.
<cyphermox>  * SRU for installation-guide, efibootmgr.
<ubottu> bug 1422864 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Trusty) "14.04.2: UEFI: linux 3.13.0-45 downloaded during install" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1422864
<cyphermox>  * ubiquity: bug 1418105.
<ubottu> bug 1418105 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Trusty: testing .2 the oem session on i386 leaves the oem wifi password in place" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1418105
<cyphermox>  * Reviewing mate-menu, mate-tweak for sponsoring.
<cyphermox> (done)
<barry> slangasek: ready?
<barry> going once
<slangasek>  * short week due to holiday on Monday
<slangasek>  * very focused on snappy
<slangasek>   * image promotion in progress for this week
<slangasek>   * armhf device tarball generation has needed straightening out
<slangasek>   * reviewing branch for grub failover handling
<slangasek>   * looking at initramfs handling of partitions being mounted without fsck; looking to figure out how to do less in the initramfs
<slangasek>  * need to get nfs-utils systemdified today so we can make the switch to systemd by default
<slangasek>  * performance reviews!  If you haven't done your self-eval yet, do it yesterday!  If you haven't sent me your selections for 360 review, do that today!
<slangasek> infinity: speaking of last-minute switching to systemd, are you sending the announcement about Feature Freeze?
<slangasek> oh, and (done)
<barry> thanks
<infinity> slangasek: I'm delaying feature freeze until I get all the features in that I want!
<cyphermox> nice plan
<infinity> slangasek: (Yeah, I should send the email later tonight, after point release stuff is done)
<barry> infinity: yay!  i can sneak a few in too then
<robru> infinity: MOAR FEACHURES!
<barry> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<sil2100> hah
<slangasek> infinity: ok, no hurry! ;)
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> slangasek: what about the standing FFe?
<barry> does anybody have anything else fun or interesting to discuss?
<sil2100> slangasek: did you have a moment to comment?
<slangasek> sil2100: I'll follow up on that discussion
<sil2100> Ok, thanks :)
<slangasek> AOB> do the performance review stuff ;)
<barry> slangasek: at least the site isn't as horribly painful this time around :)
<barry> okay, let's me this short!
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 16:20:54 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-19-16.03.moin.txt
<jodh> thanks!
<caribou> thanks barry
<mvo> thanks
<dannf> cyphermox, infinity : yeah - and i put out a MP for smoser's code to deal w/ the d-i/arm64 changes. i'll go ahead and push that unless there's an objection
<dannf> oh crikey, missed infinity
<barry> dannf: try #ubuntu-devel
<cyphermox> dannf: like I mentioned it looked fine but it would be good to have other eyeballs on it, some who've seen more of the arm64 stuff.
<dannf> cyphermox: yeah, i'll ping infinity
<cyphermox> alright
<hannie> Hello GunnarHj
<GunnarHj> hannie: Hi!
<dsmythies> GunnarHj, hannie, Hi.
<hannie> hey dsmythies I was just looking for dou or smy in the list :)
<GunnarHj> Hi dsmythies
<elfy> hi :)
<elfy> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 19 17:02:40 2015 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<hannie> hi elfy
<elfy> #chair dholbach_
<meetingology> Current chairs: dholbach_ elfy
<dholbach_> hiya
<elfy> #topic CC Catchup with the Doc Team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: CC Catchup with the Doc Team
<dholbach_> hello - how are you doing?
<elfy> nice to see you all :)
<dholbach> how are things in the doc team?
<GunnarHj> Low activity, unfortunately.
<dsmythies> O.K. I posted a pathetic litttle update on the agenda (albeit with less than 24 hours until now)
<hannie> I was just reading the agenda update
<octoquad> Evening :)
<dsmythies> GunnarHj, yes low activity.
<elfy> seems rather a common comment for sure :)
<dsmythies> there has been a spurt on xubuntu the last few days, and serverguide.
<elfy> yea - I know about xubuntu :)
<dholbach> how do you organise most of your work? is it bug reports? or anything else?
<dsmythies> I mainly work of infastructure and behind the scenes stuff. I just do it.
<GunnarHj> As for the desktop guide: Mostly bug reports indeed.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj is usually aware of what I am up to.
<hannie> Today is the string freeze?
<GunnarHj> The good news is that not much is happening with the Unity desktop right now.
<dholbach> feature freeze
<dholbach> so you have a list of bugs people could start working on, if they wanted?
<dsmythies> Today is an arbitrary string freeze for point releases of the serverguide. both 12.04 and 14.04
<dholbach> ah ok
<GunnarHj> dholbach: The bug list isn't very short either... But basically yes.
<GunnarHj> s/short/long/
<dsmythies> bugs: yes, and Ian is picking away at some on the serverguide front.
<dholbach> so that's some good news already - it looks like you're organised, even if you could do with more hands on deck
<elfy> cloud docs got added recently didn't it  - iirc
<dsmythies> In the end we are over dependant on myself and GunnarHj
<dholbach> you mentioned that you would need server experts - did you get some help from the server team? or are you in touch with them?
<elfy> mmm - depending on people can be unfortunate - especially for those depended on
<dsmythies> Subject matter experts: Yes, Peter Matulis sends help requests to the server team list every cycle.
<GunnarHj> Re desktop: I'd say we are on top of it right now. But I'm worrying about what's going to happen when the desktop changes significantly. This applies to both the official desktop guide and the Ubuntu manual.
<dholbach> Do we have a feeling for how steep the learning curve is for new contributors to the docs team?
<dsmythies> Cloud: Yes, after almost a year they have been added. We are happy with the two license apprroach, where the main license didn't chnage but canonical has NC on their stuff.
<elfy> yea, I read that
<dholbach> #chair YokoZar
<elfy> #chair YokoZar
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar dholbach_ elfy
<dsmythies> leasnring curve: Yes, it is steep. I think some give up after becoming overwhlemed
<elfy> ha :)
<dholbach> do you think it could help to have something like a training session to learn "how to fix your first docs bug" or something like that? or did you try that already?
<dsmythies> However, we have completley overhauled all the wiki pages , so at least they help rather than hinder now.
<GunnarHj> Re learning curve: I'm not sure I agree with dsmythies on that. It's not rocket science. Anybody who really wants to contribute can do so.
<sak> What are contributor finding overwhelming with the Docs team?
<dsmythies> The extrodinary amount of time it takes to get anything done.
<elfy> GunnarHj: well I know that I for one end up scratching my head a lot when I'm editing wiki's :)
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: But it's a one time effort.
<dsmythies> training: we did a big thing almost a year ago. Nobody came to it. I wouldn't do it again.
<sak> dsmythies, how long does it usually take to write a wiki manual?
<dsmythies> Beats me, I don't work on the wiki.
<GunnarHj> elfy: Ok.. Contributing to the official docs is slightly more complicated..Ã¶
<elfy> :)
<sak> Is the official docs and the wiki the same of different? Just so I am clear on the two.
<sak> or different
<dsmythies> ... other than I was heavily involved in the docs team pages overhaul
<elfy> anyone thought of running a session at UOS?
<dsmythies> what is UOS
<dholbach> Could it help to try to separate the task of writing the content from bringing it into the right form/format?
<dholbach> dsmythies, Ubuntu Online Summit
<elfy> dsmythies: the online summit
<wxl> elfy: for docs?
<GunnarHj> sak: They are to separate beasts. Any Ubuntu user can add stuff to the wiki, while only the dedicated team can commit to the official docs.
<GunnarHj> s/to/two/
<elfy> why not - run a community track
<elfy> wxl: ^^
<sak> Thank you gunnarhj
<wxl> dholbach: you mean a wyswig editor? :-)
<wxl> elfy: We should always have a community track!
<dsmythies> I do not understand "community track"
<elfy> dsmythies: track would be a session the doc team ran in UOS - talk about what you do, try and drum up some new blood
<dholbach> wxl, I just thought a bit longer about the steep learning curve now and wondered if it would help to break up a task like "document how to do X" would be easier or had a better chance of getting done, if the task of writing up the content, ie detailing the instructions, etc. was separated from bringing it in the right form (Mallard or Docbook or moin format or whatever)
<dholbach> that way the learning curve was probably a bit less steep, because writing up the content AND bringing it into the right form AND using a merge proposal might be a bit hard for some
<wxl> dholbach: well, then you need a parser or something to make it reasonable, or a wyswig editor
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Something worth considering, maybe. Simply encourage people to contribute content in some raw format...
<dholbach> wxl, ok, I was thinking more of a more experienced member of the team who could help with massaging content into the right format :)
<octoquad> Any plans for markdown, rst or textile support?
<wxl> dholbach: i've done it before with training people but it's a PAIN
<sak> Perhaps and editor that converts the content into the right form?
<wxl> octoquad: well, moin supports rst, but you add the rst IN the moin, which is stupid because people that don't know rst can't properly maintain it
<dsmythies> We did some summit sessions over a few cycles, particulary when pleia2 was more involved.
<octoquad> wxl, I see, I suppose better UI editing tools might help to structure the text for someone who doesn't know the raw markup
<elfy> dsmythies: ok - did it help at that time?
<hannie> We tried to let contributors write in raw format, but it was too much work for others to get it right, so we decided to stop it.
<dsmythies> plans for rst or whatever changes: thsi always comes up. It would be a ton of work and what people want to change to changes every quarter. I want not part of it.
<GunnarHj> hannie: Ok..
<hannie> I mean at The Ubuntu Manual
<wxl> octoquad: true, true, personally i LOOOOOOATHE moin, but that's another storry
<wxl> i *REALLY* think we need to support markdown. it's largely becoming the de facto standard for lightweight markup
<dholbach> maybe it could be tried in a smaller scale
<octoquad> perhaps, wiki content should be structured per cycle and cloned on a new cycle, with some type of inherentice of previous cycle text?
<dholbach> just to see if somebody would be willing to help with formatting
<octoquad> content stays relevant per cycle
<wxl> rst makes sense because it's the canonical python markup, but that doesn't mean anything. i mean, jeez, moin moin is in py and they don't support it :/
<octoquad> and better UI tools to manage markdown.
<octoquad> s/markdown/markup
<wxl> i have strong feelings about markup languages. i MAY be interested in helping develop a ui tool
<dholbach> converting to a new system and build system is a very big investment
<wxl> or at least the parser if soneone is more handy with front end
<sak> wxl, what is rst?
<octoquad> wxl, I'm keen as well
<wxl> sak: reStucturedText
<dholbach> sak, restructured text
<dsmythies> elfy: Summit: Such things always create a stir, but then fades back to normal.
<sak> I see, and its benefits?
<wxl> sak: another lightweight markup language like moin moin, markdown, textile, etc. etc. etc.
<wxl> sak: oh god, don't get started on the markup wars :)
<GunnarHj> The low activity problem tends to end up in endless discussions on markup languages. ;) The principal issue is the low interest in contributing, I'm afraid.
<sak> lol, we are having one now
<wxl> sak: the one obvious benefit is that it's a python tool, so python supports it well
<octoquad> GunnarHj, perhaps that's where the problem arises from?
<dsmythies> I agree with GunnarHj
<GunnarHj> octoquad: I doubt it.
<octoquad> GunnarHj, if things were a lot easier you might get a bit more contributions
<wxl> GunnarHj: we have a very enthusiastic new head of docs/wiki in lubuntu. he may be willing to help, but having clear details about what needs to be done would be helpful
<sak> wxl, nice, something I am becoming familiar with
<elfy> I just wonder if running a session would help - even if it only results in a couple of new contributors
<wxl> a session will always help
<wxl> at worst you'll have some sort of presentation you can show to noobs
<dholbach> especially if it's going to be recorded, people can watch it later on again
<wxl> and they are
<elfy> that for sure dholbach
<dsmythies> Please note: I am not very IRC savy, and am having trouble keeping up.
<wxl> at least given current technology
<elfy> dsmythies: that's ok :)
<GunnarHj> I think there was a pretty good session for about a year ago which might be resued.
<dholbach> cool
<wxl> if no one in docs has experience with it, i'd be happy to help
<GunnarHj> wxl: Thanks, noted. ;)
<sak> training session I have always found helpful. Takes out the guess work
<dholbach> would it help to help review the current "get involved" docs again to see how understandable they are for a newcomer? or is there anything else the CC could help with?
<wxl> dholbach: not a bad idea. i could find some fresh eyes to show them to
<elfy> I'd happily run through those get involved docs
<dholbach> same here
<dholbach> and probably others in ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com :)
<wxl> hehehe
<elfy> yep
<GunnarHj> Sounds great. Looking forward to your feedback.
<dholbach> :-)
<elfy> GunnarHj dsmythies - anything else we could help you with?
<sak> The lubuntu QA getting stared wiki was well written. I can help overview the getting started docs page
<dholbach> YokoZar, pleia2, mhall119, elfy, czajkowski: any more questions from you?
<GunnarHj> Think it's ok for today. Thanks all!
<elfy> not from me dholbach
<dholbach> thanks a lot for your tireless work - I really appreciate it
<dsmythies> Yes, O.K.
<wxl> thanks everyone :)
<wxl> actually
<sak> I take the meeting is over?
<wxl> GunnarHj dsmythies could one of you link me to the instructions on dealing with the manual formatting?
<dholbach> maybe we should start a discussion on the community team list too, just to see if we can come up with some more ideas to improve the situation
<elfy> GunnarHj dsmythies - if one of you wants to point me at the 'start helping' page I'll start looking
<wxl> (or bring it up on the community team list)
<dsmythies> just a sec
<wxl> ((which might be better))
<GunnarHj> We'll get back on the list.
<wxl> sounds good thanks
<dholbach> thanks a lot
<dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<dsmythies> Oh, or on list , per Gunnr
<dholbach> elfy, are we meeting up with anyone else today?
<hannie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
<elfy> dholbach: QA team
<dholbach> ah cool
<wxl> horray for QA team
<dholbach> do we have anyone here from our QA overlords?
<elfy> thanks dsmythies GunnarHj hannie
<dsmythies> Yes, and thank you
<wxl> well, i'm not one of the overlords
<elfy> and many thanks from me for what you all do :)
<GunnarHj> np; thank you!
<elfy> #topic QA Team Catchup
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Team Catchup
<elfy> and I can be here with Xubuntu QA hat on too :)
<hannie> bye
<dholbach> thanks again
<YokoZar> Thank you
<wxl> â lubuntu qa dewd
<wxl> where's balloons ??
<dholbach> who else? balloons maybe?
<octoquad> <- Ubuntu Gnome QA
<dholbach> nice
<elfy> hi octoquad :)
<octoquad> howdy elfy  :)
<wxl> oh wow octoquad you're like, what, one of three? XD
<elfy> balloons should be here representing :D
<balloons> it's time already?
<octoquad> wxl, huh? lol
<dholbach> yes yes, it is
<elfy> hey balloons - welcome :)
<wxl> octoquad: nevermind :)
<dholbach> how are things in QA land? how are you all doing?
 * balloons screws head on for UTC time
<octoquad> wxl, soz, you mean in the QA team
<wxl> i'm whooped after 14.04.2
<wxl> if infinity wasn't in my time zone, i would have killed myself by now XD
<balloons> qa land is doing well. We're anticipating unity8 on the desktop, and more phones in the wild on the touch side of the fence
<elfy> dholbach: well ... it's been tough getting people involved for us - but we got 94 testing reports for the trusty release today
<dholbach> so we're mostly talking about release testing here?
<wxl> i just got a nexus 4, so i've started working on finding my way through the labryinth that is touch testing ;)
<wxl> i'm working on some t-shirts to encourage more involvement in lubuntu qa testing
<balloons> elfy's correct on release testing. Trying to ensure it gets tested is getting harder
<wxl> i'm going to have a contest of some sort
<dholbach> so when we're talking about QA efforts here, are we focusing mostly on release/image testing?
<elfy> mostly from my pov
<wxl> dholbach: well, that does tend to be a large amount of our focus, and is certainly of greatest importance
<wxl> generally all other testing is "preventative"
<dholbach> it is super important, of course
<dholbach> elfy, you said that it was harder to get people involved - was that across the board across image/release testing?
<octoquad> 14.04.2 testing was pretty good compared to vivid for Ubuntu Gnome
<wxl> there were a PLETHORA of rebuilds in 14.04.2
<wxl> so while the final numbers may not show it, there certainly was a fair amount of testing
<elfy> dholbach: it has been, Xubuntu are running a bit if a drive with stickers and things :) http://xubuntu.org/news/help-the-community-with-testing-and-win-xubuntu-stickers/
<wxl> incidentially xubuntu is who lubuntu is copying
<wxl> but we have t-shirts XD
<wxl> kubuntu got no testing done
<elfy> we will too - but not just yet
<elfy> and books
<wxl> netboot got barely touched
<dholbach> I think netboot was always harder to cover
<wxl> server got barely touched
<wxl> upgrade got barely touched
<wxl> other than that, most everyone got full testing done
<wxl> lubuntu in particular had a problem with alternates that will leave us without those images
<sak> Lots of images got barley touched it seems
<wxl> release team will try to fix that after release
<balloons> the altenate and ppc / netboot images are difficult
<wxl> we discussed getting rid of alternates but really can't justify netboot as a viable solution for several reasons
<octoquad> we had no upgrade path for 14.04.2 so nothing was tested
<wxl> so there has been some discussion of making a text-only low resource front end to ubiquity
<balloons> what's wrong with the debian installer?
<dholbach> maybe we should have another chat on the community team list about this too to see where we can get more folks signed up for testing
<balloons> or just wanting it to be the same?
<wxl> balloons: sameness is a big goal in my mind, but the issue with this point releases seems to affect d-i in a way it doesn't affect ubiquity
<sak> dholbach, that sounds like a a good idea
<wxl> i mean the attitude on the release team is that they don't want to support the red haired child, you know? :)
<balloons> one of the issues is that flavors and ubuntu are disconnected now on testing times. Ubuntu only does final beta image testing, while flavors do other milestones. But not all flavors do every milestone
<balloons> We've definitely seen an overall drop in folks testing since we switched to this
<wxl> balloons: yeah, i would say that the change to having the community handle release for early milestones was kind of a shock
<balloons> In theory, rounding up folks do testing on the final beta image should be easier, but I think we've lost folks who would have done testing throughout the cycle and enjoyed it
<wxl> agree
<elfy> balloons: the forum team are still doing their thing - but hard to get them involved in trackers
<dholbach> maybe we can think of a good way together to round up folks again and get them involved in more regular testing activities
<wxl> yeah if i have to see another mailing list message with a long story about testing that doesn't get reported on the trackers.. argh
<elfy> dholbach: not sure if you know, but there's an area on forum which is just for dev releases
<dholbach> yep, I haven't been there for a while, but I know it exists :)
<dholbach> maybe it'd also make sense to try to find out where people read most of our announcements
<wxl> maybe we should get rid of early milestones altogether? i don't know.
<wxl> i might want to talk to our dev team about that
<elfy> wxl mmm
<elfy> we're more likely to alpha for LTS
<balloons> I would be in favor of not testing images early.. I liked the switch to final beta only
<balloons> the difficulty then is coordinating work and getting people using the release before then. As elfy said, the forums are one place people congregate to do this stuff. I'm sure there's more
<wxl> balloons: but is there automated testing going on otherwise?
<elfy> jenkins looked stopped the other day, I think jibel said something about starting that up
<balloons> wxl, sure there is (although it recently had issues, so nothing is happening with ubiquity testing atm. It is being fixed)
<elfy> that ^^
<octoquad> for vivid alpha 1 as an example it felt like it was an 14.10 image
<balloons> I am trying to get them to make those tests more visible as well, but they need to be online again :-)
<elfy> balloons: :)
<wxl> maybe if flavors had guidance on dealing with automated testing, that might be a good transition
<wxl> i mean, i've heard mention of them, but that's about it
<elfy> I did use to look at the ubiquity jenkins - used the rss fail feed
<wxl> octoquad: yeah, kind of what i was thinking. they're a waste in a way.
<dholbach> sounds like a good topic for a few sessions :)
<wxl> +1 dholbach
<elfy> wxl: auto testing for us at least was a nightmare as balloons will attest I'm sure
<balloons> the tracker is also a point of contention, and we have seen some success in trying to fix long standing issues. But they are still there
<wxl> balloons: i'm sure you don't have anything else on your plate right? XD
<elfy> not sure that's ever going to happen
<dholbach> round up all QA experts and have a day of   Ubuntu  QA TV   :)
<wxl> elfy: why for?
<balloons> automated testing of flavors is difficult indeed. The older toolkits just don't lend themselves to it
<wxl> ah
<wxl> bummer
<wxl> is kubuntu doing automated testing?
<dholbach> balloons, autopkgtest?
<dholbach> (where applicable of course)
<balloons> if/when xubuntu is gtk3 it will be better. lubuntu is moving to qt and could definitely get UI tests
<balloons> kubuntu as well could have a nice story, and I do believe they have a small suite
<balloons> dholbach, yes, autopkgtest for the older stuff is as far as you can go
<elfy> it would certainly be awesome :)
<wxl> balloons: if you can train me on doing the automated testing, i can work with our dev team as we continue to develop lxqt
<elfy> balloons: oh - so different?
 * wxl spits in the general direction of gtk+
<balloons> wxl, happy to. If you want to round up some folks from lubuntu who might be interested as well we can do some live hacking together on a lubuntu app
<dholbach> nice... shall we discuss the possibility of a training event or some such on the community list? or other measures of getting people involved?
<elfy> autopkg and autopilot differences - possibly we could use the former?
<wxl> balloons: that'd be cool. propose a time and i'll see what i can do with the cat herding :)
<balloons> elfy, gtk2 vs gtk3? yes, as you know gtk2 apps with xubuntu don't like to be introspected :-)
<elfy> indeed :D
<wxl> balloons: and i cna talk to kubuntu folks, too
<balloons> dholbach, we used to always attend the openweek sessions. Did those happen this time around?
 * wxl uses kubuntu at work, so
<balloons> wxl, awesome, I'll propose something on the list
<wxl> balloons: sounds great
<dholbach> balloons, I don't know - we should talk about it on the list
 * balloons hopes someone is taking notes, lol
<wxl> hahah
<dholbach> I'll have a dinner at a friend's place to run to in a few - that's why I'm trying to push discussion to the list :)
<octoquad> which list would that be?
<dholbach> ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com could generate a bunch of ideas on how to get people involved
<octoquad> ta, I'll sign up now
<dholbach> eeeeeexcellent
<dholbach> is there anything you feel the Community Council could help with?
<elfy> would be useful I think - not much point in using qa m/l as that's a captive audience already imo
<dholbach> YokoZar, pleia2, mhall119, elfy, czajkowski: any more questions from you?
<balloons> elfy, good point actually
<elfy> dholbach: nope - I'm quite up together on where QA is thanks
<balloons> dholbach, yes your ideas and input on the list discussions would be excellent
<balloons> thanks
<dsmythies> On the bright side: I totally forgot to bring up the new launchpad servers were rolled out a few days ago, and the so very very very very annoying translations timeout issue seems to be solved. Bug 736005
<elfy> I'll thank those of you others who do for your teams though - you do good work :)
<ubottu> bug 736005 in Launchpad itself "POFile:+translate timeouts" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/736005
<balloons> yes, thanks for coming out as well and sharing your thoughts!
<dholbach> yes!
<elfy> dsmythies: thanks :)
<dholbach> :)
<elfy> dholbach: ok - well I'm good
<elfy> YokoZar: anything from you
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone - thanks a lot for you hard work! over the last cycle's our QA has really come together - you've all made a tremendous difference
<balloons> did sak make it?
<balloons> ahh indeed
<sak> Make it to the meeting balloons?
<balloons> sak, yes, wanted to make sure you found us :-)
<balloons> thanks for coming
<wxl> oops phone
<wxl> i miss anythinbg else?
<wxl> OH
<sak> It was a pleasure
<wxl> i remembered i wanted to say sometthing
<wxl> the switch to only having 2 days to officially test milestones was an interesting change, so i've been working hard to encourage more proactive testing
<wxl> that's something i'd suggest to others if they haven't figured that one out XD
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> thanks again everyone!
<elfy> dholbach: anything else?
<dholbach> I have to run now! A dinner is waiting! :)
<elfy> #endmeeting
<dholbach> elfy, not from me
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 18:08:54 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-19-17.02.moin.txt
<dholbach> thanks a lot for running the meeting!
<wxl> thanks all
<elfy> got to run too :)
<dholbach> take care everyone! thanks!
<wxl> i'm off to work so have a good day :)
<elfy> thanks everyone
<balloons> cheers
<sak> See you all on the next meeting
<elfy> balloons: I'll catch you at some point re autopkg
<balloons> elfy, ohh right sure
<elfy> ha :p
<elfy> you sound like you're looking forward to it :D
<balloons> elfy, the short version is it's package level testing, and honestly I'm not sure it makes sense for desktop apps. libraries are certainly testable at that stage and make sense
<elfy> aah ok - I guess you'd have suggested it before if you thought it would help us
<balloons> however, they are harder to do; only because the tests themselves can be written however you wish.
<balloons> elfy, right. I think having covering for common gtk2 stuff is the most helpful in your case
<balloons> but moving to gtk3 means honestly it makes more sense to work on those
<elfy> :)
<samg> Its QA Meeting now?
<samg> or did i miss it?
<Mikaela> I think it might have been
<samg> dammit
<samg> missed it it was about an hour ago
<Mikaela> 2015-02-19 20:08:54+0200 < meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-19-17.02.moin.txt
<samg> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-02-20
<WhiskeyWinter> hi guys, im not sure if this is the correct channel to ask for support but i'm stuck with and old Dell Dimension 4300 and it's ATI RAGE 128 video card that seems not be recognized by correcty by X, i have searched a lot about how to get the graphical interface works with no luck, can someone give some advice?
<sarnold> WhiskeyWinter: try installing xserver-xorg-video-r128 or xserver-xorg-video-ati packages
<WhiskeyWinter> thanks sarnold
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-02-22
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb 22 16:36:18 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Gianfranco Costamagna (locutusofborg) provided debdiffs for precise-wily for virtualbox-guest-additions-iso and a debdiff for wily for virtualbox-ext-pack (LP: #1540243)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1540243 in virtualbox-guest-additions-iso (Ubuntu Xenial) "SRU virtualbox-ext-pack, virtualbox-guest-additions-iso to match virtualbox versions" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1540243
<tyhicks> Vlad Orlov (monsta) provided debdiffs for precise-xenial for gtk+2.0 (LP: #1540811)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1540811 in gtk+2.0 (Debian) "[GDK] patch - avoid integer overflow when allocating a large block of memory" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1540811
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> last week I made come good progress on the review tools and squashfs. I'm hoping to finish that up that week, then move on to snappy skills
<jdstrand> I also have an embargoed issue I need to get to
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm testing a cpio update, after that I want to test the new ca-certificates and related package updates in the proposed ppa for releasing this week
<mdeslaur> after that, I might start backporting the newer sudo to stable releases to finally fix the time issue
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're it
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week
<sbeattie> kernel updates are happening today, I think, and I have an embargoed issue
<sbeattie> I need to finish my thoughts on the pie stuff
<sbeattie> I also have some apparmor tasks to osrt out.
<sbeattie> That's probably it for my week
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week
<tyhicks> my focus will be on finishing the AppArmor stacking changes needed for the parser
<tyhicks> I'll also fix the eCryptfs parallel copy file corruption bug (LP: #1543633)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1543633 in eCryptfs "Data corruption during parallel file copying with interruptions" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1543633
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> oh, I don't think he's around yet
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead
<sarnold> I'm on cve triage this week
<sarnold> I'm working on the zfs MIR, will probably finish that today if the cve triage isn't too deep
<sarnold> I think the next MIR up is fwupd, not sure what's after that but I seem to recall a pretty deep queue
<sarnold> oh yeah, someone wnated me to skim the new fwupdate code, that ought to be quick
<sarnold> I'll try to get to an apparmor patch or two along the way
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got Oxide and Thunderbird updates to get out this week
<chrisccoulson> I'll also be spending some time working through convergence-related tasks. I put together a list of bugs last week (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oxide/+spec/converged-device-support)
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I've got some embargoed stuff
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python-rsa.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/castor.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xorg-server-lts-utopic.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libapache-poi-java.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/fso-usaged.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sarnold> "Pure Python RSA implementation" .. yikes
<tyhicks> :)
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Feb 22 16:54:37 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-22-16.36.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-02-23
<tomek__> hi
<tomek__> can u help me i have to move buttons from left to right
<tomek__> minimize maximize close
<rharper> o/
<smoser> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<kickinz1> o/
<matsubara> o/
<caribou> o/
<jgrimm> o/
<jgrimm> hmm.. no nacc..
<jgrimm> i'll take
<jgrimm> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 23 16:05:10 2016 UTC.  The chair is jgrimm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<jgrimm> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rharper> jgrimm: I did let him know last week
<jgrimm> rharper, indeed, i talked to him too.  but he's coming off of a vacation so easy to forget. :)
<jgrimm> smoser fix bug 1543025
<ubottu> bug 1543025 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Xenial) "Wrong UTC zoneinfo in cloud-images" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1543025
<jgrimm> ^^  only action point from last week
<smoser> yeah. fun. i need to fix.
<jgrimm> smoser, anything to report on this one?
<smoser> no.
<jgrimm> no worries. been a busy busy busy last 2 weeks
<jgrimm> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<jgrimm> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<cpaelzer> FYI - we are successfully at DPDK 2.2.0-0ubuntu1 in xenial now - time to push the MIR again now
<jgrimm> And FeatureFreeze hit last week.. thanks for all the teamwork and digging in that everyone did
<jgrimm> Anyone want to talk about any FFE or other items related to FeatureFreeze?
<cpaelzer> jgrimm: rbasak is not here but we might define an action for next weeks agenda to parse our open bugs if anything is super-critical before Xenial GA
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, agreed
<rharper> jgrimm: did we file/update FFE for docker ?
<jgrimm> rharper, i don't think we need one
<rharper> oh
<rharper> hrm, ok
<jgrimm> as have standing MRE
<rharper> interesting
<jgrimm> though it was agreed we need to update it
<rharper> ok
<cpaelzer> jgrimm: updated about the way it is now handled?
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, there was an agreement in 14.04 timeframe for an MRE for docker.io. but that agreement said the situation should be reexamined in the 16.04 timeframe
<cpaelzer> ok, thanks
<jgrimm> np
<jgrimm> smoser, do you have FFEs to file yet?  i saw squid, lxd, etc..
<smoser> i have to file cloud-init still :-(
<jgrimm> ok, that's what i was thinking of too
<smoser> squid derailed me. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/squid3/+bug/1547640
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1547640 in squid3 (Ubuntu Xenial) "proxy tries ipv6 and gets 503 when no ipv6 routes" [High,In progress]
<jgrimm> totally understand.  I'm very impressed andreas figured out what triggered it
<smoser> i uploaded those to wily and trusty proposed. *big* thanks to Paul Gear who pointed out the fix.
<jgrimm> \o/
<jgrimm> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jgrimm> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> as cpaelzer noted.. we need to move to bug smashing mode next
<cpaelzer> yeah, the list itself has nothing "new" other to the squid which smoser worked on
<cpaelzer> ... in the server list
<cpaelzer> there should be some more dpdk issues that I filed, I need to ask rbasak how I need to tag them when triaging
<jgrimm> indeed.  and we've put off triaging over the last couple weeks, so that needs to happen by next week imo
<jgrimm> #action rbasak (et al) catch up on traige
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak (et al) catch up on traige
<jgrimm> since he is out today. :)
<jgrimm> moving on..
<jgrimm> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> I'm good, sprinting this week
<jgrimm> nice
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> amd64 and i386 Xenial server ISO images were last published on the 19th due to a conflict installing libpam-systemd  229-1ubuntu2 and systemd 229-1ubuntu4. ISO image is built from an rsync'ed mirror archive which had some old version which caused the failure. cjwatson explained the issue in #ubuntu-devel and ISO publication should be back to normal in the next ISO build.
<matsubara> that's all from me jgrimm
<jgrimm> matsubara, thanks!
<jgrimm> any questions from others?
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Cannot think of anything to report.
<jgrimm> smb, ok thanks
<jgrimm> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<jgrimm> #link http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.mm/144414
<jgrimm> ^^ annual Linux Storage, Filesystem and Memory Management Summit
<jgrimm> that's all i see for a while on the LWN calendar at least
<jgrimm> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<jgrimm> #topic Open Discussion
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<cpaelzer> I'm in the process of consuming the remaining beer from last server team event this week :-P
<jgrimm> :)
<jgrimm> anyone?
<jgrimm> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<jgrimm> 2016-03-01 at 1600 UTC.. nacc remains chair
<jgrimm> that's all folks. thanks
<jgrimm> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 23 16:28:14 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-23-16.05.moin.txt
<kickinz1> tx jgrimm
<caribou> thanks jgrimm
<cpaelzer> thanks, cu
<cpaelzer> \o
<serge> \o
<jgrimm> \o
<alimj> Just to be sure if I am in right place, I am looking for standard operating procedures for appointing a new OP for #ubuntu-ir room (Foundership transfer from freenode-staff to UbuntuIrcCouncil forced by freenode administration)
<alimj> The mentioned room is left orphaned and not monitored
<sarnold> alimj: try #ubuntu-irc
<alimj> sarnold: Yes. Thanks. Got my answer
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-02-24
<BobJonkman> Is Simon Quigley here?
<sarnold> BobJonkman: tsimonq2
<BobJonkman> Thanx!
<tsimonq2> hello!
<tsimonq2> BobJonkman: what's up?
<BobJonkman> Hi tsimonq2! Just got your email, I'll be lurking for the LoCo portal meeting
<tsimonq2> oky, cool :D
<tsimonq2> *okay
<tsimonq2> BobJonkman: so what LoCo are you from?
<BobJonkman1> tsimonq2: Sorry, AFK for a bit. I'm from the Ubuntu-ca LoCo, the Canadian Team.
<BobJonkman1> Sadly, the Canadian Team is no longer registered; there has not been much activity except for regular release parties in Toronto hosted by genii
 * genii makes more coffee, slides one to BobJonkman1 and another to tsimonq2
<BobJonkman1> Ahh, coffee!
<genii> :)
<tsimonq2> oh jeez thanks genii I really need it :)
<genii> Any time, of course
<tsimonq2> BobJonkman1: yeah I was AFK too, I'm the leader of the Wisconsin team :)
<tsimonq2> wxl, PabloRubianes: You guys around to start the meeting soon?
<wxl> tsimonq2: yep
<tsimonq2> wxl: who else besides Pablo did we want here?
<wxl> tsimonq2: daker.
<tsimonq2> daker: you around for the meeting?
<wxl> i'd go so far as to say daker's participation is essential
<tsimonq2> yeah I agree
<tsimonq2> I'll wait for another 5 minutes while I consume snacks because I just got home, then we can get started :)
<tsimonq2> if daker is here
<tsimonq2> we'll see
<wxl> tsimonq2: he popped by a couple hours back asking abut the meeting time
<daker> tsimonq2: yo
<tsimonq2> hey guys, let me finish my muffin and we'll start
<tsimonq2> or at least get some progress :)
<tsimonq2> wxl, daker: You mind me facilitating because Pablo isn't around?
<wxl> tsimonq2: sure, although it sounds like this meeting is just going to be me and you
<tsimonq2> wxl: where's daker?
<superfly> this is about the LoCo portal?
<wxl> tsimonq2: dunno
<tsimonq2> yep superfly :)
<daker> tsimonq2: just go ahead
<wxl> superfly: yes, that's the intention
<tsimonq2> and BobJonkman1, we are starting now :)
<tsimonq2> ;startmeeting ?
<superfly> ah, OK. I can't stay, it's 11pm, but I'll let my IRC client lurk and read tomorrow morning
 * tsimonq2 Googles commands quick :)
<wxl> thx superfly
<tsimonq2> here we go
<tsimonq2> #startmeeting Ubuntu LoCo Portal Planning
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 24 21:06:08 2016 UTC.  The chair is tsimonq2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu LoCo Portal Planning Meeting | Current topic:
<tsimonq2> Welcome to the meeting to plan items for the LoCo portal!
<tsimonq2> I kinda already know who's here, so let's just get to business! :)
<tsimonq2> Here is what I kinda threw together: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamPortal/Meetings/20160224
<pleia2> o/
<tsimonq2> hello pleia2 :)
<wxl> oh hai pleia2 !
<nhaines> o/
<pleia2> if you'd like, I could share some of what we did in 2012 to jumpstart development
<wxl> hai nhaines :)
<pleia2> (it obviously didn't work, but we learned some things)
<tsimonq2> so now I want to look at existing portal bugs and see if we can point out a few, just for the sake of looking them over: https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-team-portal/
<tsimonq2> #topic Existing *
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu LoCo Portal Planning Meeting | Current topic: Existing *
 * tsimonq2 guesses he did that right :)
<wxl> buncha undecided/news that need triaged
<tsimonq2> well what kinda concerns me is that there are some critical bugs
<tsimonq2> that's not good
<tsimonq2> and then a whole lot of wishlist items among others
<tsimonq2> the critical bugs are: bug 881019 bug 1225610 bug 1273491 bug 1372124
<ubottu> bug 881019 in Launchpad itself "Lp login is broken after account merge" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881019
<ubottu> bug 1225610 in LoCo Team Portal "Standard Timezone are reverted back to UTC" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1225610
<ubottu> bug 1273491 in LoCo Team Portal "Merge functionnality only merges the events" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1273491
<ubottu> bug 1372124 in LoCo Team Portal "The Django version that the LTP uses is unsupported now" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1372124
<tsimonq2> oh that's weird it says one of them is just high...
<wxl> that first one sounds like it MIGHT be an sso issue
<wxl> and frankly kind of edge casey
<daker> tsimonq2: bug 881019 we can't do much, it's on LP side
<tsimonq2> so should it be taken off the portal tracker?
<wxl> i mean, how many users do we have that have merged lp accounts?
<tsimonq2> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<tsimonq2> I don't know, you have a point, wxl
<wxl> tsimonq2: it needs further testing to confirm that it's sso, but i vote making it low
<tsimonq2> I vote that as well
<daker> tsimonq2: a few
<tsimonq2> well just remove the LoCo portal from that
<tsimonq2> I think it's just irrelevant
<wxl> bug 1225610 seems like it needs to be tested further. i'm not sure we can call it triaged without it being confirmed
<ubottu> bug 1225610 in LoCo Team Portal "Standard Timezone are reverted back to UTC" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1225610
<tsimonq2> I have experienced it
<tsimonq2> could we confirm?
<wxl> well if you say you have, you could then confirm it
<wxl> bug 1273491 needs reviewed
<ubottu> bug 1273491 in LoCo Team Portal "Merge functionnality only merges the events" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1273491
<tsimonq2> #action Remove bug 881019 from the LoCo Portal Project on Launchpad
<meetingology> ACTION: Remove bug 881019 from the LoCo Portal Project on Launchpad
<ubottu> bug 881019 in Launchpad itself "Lp login is broken after account merge" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881019
<wxl> bug 1372124 we talked about before. we need to get to a current django
<ubottu> bug 1372124 in LoCo Team Portal "The Django version that the LTP uses is unsupported now" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1372124
<daker> tsimonq2: maybe we can rework the TZ stuff once we migrate to a newer django version
<wxl> +1 daker
<daker> wxl: first thing to do is to check with IS first
<wxl> in fact i'd say that should be our #1 priority before we start messing with much else
<tsimonq2> yeah I agree, daker, if we are using an old django version that should totally be considered
<tsimonq2> +1 wxl
<tsimonq2> #action Upgrade the django version for the LoCo Portal
<meetingology> ACTION: Upgrade the django version for the LoCo Portal
<tsimonq2> also, something that I noticed is that the LoCo portal running in production is a commit behind
<tsimonq2> daker: would you be willing to talk to IS to get that fixed?
<daker> tsimonq2: also check with IS what version to use
<tsimonq2> the docs are lacking for how to do that
<wxl> #action wxl make an rt ticket re: upgrading django and what version to use
<meetingology> ACTION: wxl make an rt ticket re: upgrading django and what version to use
<daker> tsimonq2: what do you mean ?
<tsimonq2> daker: well I know there is documentation somewhere to submit an IS ticket for this, that needs to be reviewed
<wxl> tsimonq2: i got that. i can talk to is (see action)
<daker> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamPortal/ReleaseProcess
<tsimonq2> wxl: alright, cool, I guess that's out of the way
<tsimonq2> bug 1273491?
<ubottu> bug 1273491 in LoCo Team Portal "Merge functionnality only merges the events" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1273491
<tsimonq2> what's up with that?
<wxl> needs reviewed
<tsimonq2> whoops sorry didn't see :)
<tsimonq2> so I think that's it for reviewing existing bugs?
<tsimonq2> s/existing/critical/
<wxl> yep
<wxl> someone needs to triage, too
<tsimonq2> I really think the other bugs can be looked at seperately if you choose, but the critical ones should be fixed ASAP
<tsimonq2> yeh I can help with that, wxl
<tsimonq2> #action Triage the LoCo Portal Bugs on Launchpad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-team-portal/
<wxl> tsimonq2: action it :)
<meetingology> ACTION: Triage the LoCo Portal Bugs on Launchpad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-team-portal/
<tsimonq2> wxl: :P
<tsimonq2> so is that it for existing items?
<tsimonq2> as always, non-existent bugs can be reported here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-team-portal/+filebug
<wxl> yep and i think we can tackle requested features once we get a handle on having a stable version with current django, etc
<tsimonq2> I agree
<tsimonq2> #topic New features
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<tsimonq2> Okay, so does anyone want to speak up and request a feature for the portal? Just throw an idea out there.
<tsimonq2> Anyone?
<tsimonq2> Well, I guess we don't really need this, so I'll move on, unless somebody speaks up within the next 30 seconds
<tsimonq2> #topic Release schedule?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu LoCo Portal Planning Meeting | Current topic: Release schedule?
<tsimonq2> so i was wondering, do we need a release schecule for the tracker?
<tsimonq2> something to plan this out
<wxl> hm
<tsimonq2> or should it be on a case-by-case process of fixing bugs?
<daker> tsimonq2: i guess just case-by-case
<wxl> well it would be nice to have a release schedule, ideally
<tsimonq2> nhaines, pleia2: Do you have prior experience with this?
<wxl> but i think that given current resources and the state of the project, i'd suggest case-by-case
<tsimonq2> is there a point in time that it should be implemented?
<pleia2> I've not been involved with the point releases
<wxl> naw, i don't think so. just keep on fixing bugs and adding features regularly and no one will complain XD
<pleia2> most of my focus last time around was making sure devs had a dev environment, and telling people about how to bring it up with vagrant
<tsimonq2> pleia2: what's vagrant?
<tsimonq2> or is that a person?
<pleia2> tool for creating localized, virtual development environments
<tsimonq2> ahh okay
<tsimonq2> but I guess it might be good to have time-based goals for things
<nhaines> I haven't been involved in releases either.
<pleia2> our concern was having developers :)
<tsimonq2> alright :)
<nhaines> That's my main question.  *Do* we have developers for this?
<tsimonq2> That's a really good question.
<tsimonq2> I'm willing to help
<wxl> pleia2: do you have that documented?
<wxl> i'm also willing to help
<pleia2> wxl: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=6662
<tsimonq2> yesm and we need documentation as well
<tsimonq2> *yes
<pleia2> wxl: it walks through what's already on the wiki
<tsimonq2> pleia2: link?
<wxl> tsimonq2: you should get a dev wiki page if there isn't already one
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamPortal
<tsimonq2> ahh okay
<pleia2> under "Get Started" has links
<tsimonq2> wxl: there is :)
<wxl> tsimonq2: k nevermind :)
<pleia2> and since this was from back in 2012, it was all on 12.04
<wxl> riiiight so we should have action to double check all that
<tsimonq2> I guess documentation really needs to be updated, because as you said, this was from 4 years ago, and if we want to have developers, we need good docs
<wxl> with a mid-term goal of getting more devs to fix these issues once we have the major infrastructure problems fixed
<pleia2> being able to bring ltp up on vagrant on our laptop/desktop was a huge help to getting anyone who is familiar with django/python looking at bugs
<tsimonq2> #action Revise existing documentation
<meetingology> ACTION: Revise existing documentation
<pleia2> ultimately we didn't really succeed, people get busy, back then daker was our core dev too
<pleia2> but I think it's great that you're trying again
<tsimonq2> yeah, I really think the LoCo portal has the potential to be a really useful tool
<daker> #action Upgrade vagrant to the lastest version
<meetingology> ACTION: Upgrade vagrant to the lastest version
<tsimonq2> I guess we are getting off topic for releases, so I'll change that quick
<tsimonq2> #topic Documentation
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<tsimonq2> so what do we need updated?
<pleia2> I recommend someone going through all the links on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamPortal
<pleia2> I was the last one to touch that page, in 2012
<tsimonq2> let's start with discussing the Get Started portion
<pleia2> LoCoTeamPortal (last edited 2012-08-28 08:57:38 by lyz)
<tsimonq2> #subtopic "Get Started"
<tsimonq2> #progress "Get Started"
<tsimonq2> oh :P
<tsimonq2> anyways
<tsimonq2> it just shows how to branch the repo and now to open the INSTALL file
<tsimonq2> I could totally see this being a seperate page
<tsimonq2> thoughts?
<wxl> i don't see that as a bad thing
<tsimonq2> me neither
<tsimonq2> I'll #action it
<tsimonq2> #action tsimonq2: Move the "Get Started" to a different subpage
<meetingology> ACTION: tsimonq2: Move the "Get Started" to a different subpage
<pleia2> I think checking all sections for accuracy should be the highest priority, you can reshuffle at any time
<tsimonq2> yeah I agree
<tsimonq2> but we laready have an action item there :)
<tsimonq2> so I think docs needs to be a major focus of this
<tsimonq2> anything else about documentation before we move on?
<tsimonq2> #topic Existence/How do we make it more useful?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu LoCo Portal Planning Meeting | Current topic: Existence/How do we make it more useful?
<tsimonq2> so we know this has been used by teams, but I have been hearing that tems are starting to move away from it
<tsimonq2> *teams
<tsimonq2> how do we make this more useful
<tsimonq2> ?
<wxl> well
<tsimonq2> and should this still exist?
<wxl> i hear some people complaining about it
<wxl> (but people complain about everything)
<tsimonq2> heheheh I guess
<wxl> but as far as the loco team is concerned, i see no plan to move away from it
<wxl> i like it
<tsimonq2> I agree
<wxl> it does add functionality that doesn't exist on the wiki
<tsimonq2> and I just think it needs a bit of work
<tsimonq2> which is why we are here :)
<wxl> we can always work on better integrating information between the two resources but that's simple
<wxl> i'd say the bigger issue with the loco team is getting people to even look at ANY of the resources
<tsimonq2> yeah
<wxl> i was in the community for years before i ever heard of the notion of locos!
 * tsimonq2 wonders if Ubuntu has a marketing team...
<pleia2> there is an inactive community marketing team (mailing list, channel)
 * wxl wonders if Canonical has a community manager XD
<nhaines> wxl: about half a dozen of them.  :P
<wxl> nhaines: i guess manager is not the right word. a liason. evangelist.
<tsimonq2> #votesrequired 3
<meetingology> votes now need 3 to be passed
<tsimonq2> #voters nhaines wxl tsimonq2 pleia2 daker
<meetingology> Current voters: daker nhaines pleia2 tsimonq2 wxl
<tsimonq2> #vote Does the LoCo Portal still need to exist?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Does the LoCo Portal still need to exist?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<tsimonq2> I guess I want to see if this is a universal opinion
<wxl> +1 for me
<meetingology> +1 for me received from wxl
<tsimonq2> +1 It's really useful
<meetingology> +1 It's really useful received from tsimonq2
<nhaines> +1 It's a critical piece of infrastructure at this time.
<meetingology> +1 It's a critical piece of infrastructure at this time. received from nhaines
<pleia2> +1 still being used by many teams
<meetingology> +1 still being used by many teams received from pleia2
<wxl> if anyone else wants to vote that isn't on the list of voters, please say so
<tsimonq2> I'll give them a minute from now
<tsimonq2> then I'll end it :)
<wxl> i'd be curious to see what daker says ("-1 i don't want to develop this crap anymore") XD
<tsimonq2> in the meantime, I guess Twitter/Facebook posts might be something to consider, maybe something like built-in meeting announcements with links :)
<wxl> i'm kidding, btw.
<tsimonq2> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Does the LoCo Portal still need to exist?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<genii> Even though our Loco ( Ubuntu Canada) was not renewed, we still use those event pages for our release parties and other things like Ubuntu Hours
<tsimonq2> awesome, genii :)
<daker> +1 but it's need to be complementary with the other tool provided by canonical
<tsimonq2> other tool?!?!?!?
<wxl> genii: yikes a whole country and not renewed? :( come see the loco-council!
<tsimonq2> #topic Misc.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu LoCo Portal Planning Meeting | Current topic: Misc.
<tsimonq2> anything else from anyone?
<tsimonq2> I think it would be a good idea to have another meeting at the same time and day of the week/week as next month, so March 23
<tsimonq2> would everyone be good with that?
<wxl> works for me
<tsimonq2> then we can look at what's been done
<tsimonq2> daker? you ultimately decide because the meeting doesn't go on without you :)
<daker> tsimonq2: i am having some internet connexion :/
<daker> issues*
<tsimonq2> daker: does March 23, same time, work for you?
<daker> tsimonq2: yes
<tsimonq2> alright good
<tsimonq2> right at 4 PM CST(idk what it is UTC or other time zones), I'll end the meeting, just in case anyone wants to say anything else
<wxl> tsimonq2: /exec - date -u
<tsimonq2> at 22 utc :)
<tsimonq2> thanks wxl :D
<tsimonq2> okay, thanks guys, I'll see you next month! have a nice afternoon/night! :)
<wxl> thx tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 24 22:00:06 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-24-21.06.moin.txt
<wxl> and everyone else!
<tsimonq2> yeah thanks guys :D
<tsimonq2> I'll send something off to loco-contacts, loco-council, and ltp-dev
<tsimonq2> (email)
<tsimonq2> After 14.04.4 and this, do not be too surprised if I am quiet this weekend, which I know will be a blessing to you all :P
<tsimonq2> whoops
<PabloRubianes> Tsimonq2
<PabloRubianes> @
<PabloRubianes> Sorry i got work troubles
<tsimonq2> hello PabloRubianes :D
<tsimonq2> it's alright
<tsimonq2> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-24-21.06.moin.txt
<PabloRubianes> Couldnt make it sorry
<PabloRubianes> I'll read it later
<PabloRubianes> Im still at office
<tsimonq2> alright :)
<PabloRubianes> Talk you later
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-02-25
<pitti> Ã¸
<pitti> that was supposed to be a o/
<xnox> iteresting =)
<xnox> swiss keyboard?
<pitti> no, compose key mess up
<barry> o/
<caribou_> o/
<barry> meeting leader shuf? :)
<pitti> do I need to run this again?
<pitti> if I do it a second time, I'll have to do it forever
 * barry says mwah ha ha!
<pitti> #startmeeting
<doko> pitti, yo do it very well ;)
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 25 16:02:10 2016 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<pitti> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<pitti> *thunder*
<pitti> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<pitti> slangasek robru chiluk cyphermox doko xnox caribou barry pitti sil2100 bdmurray infinity tdaitx
<pitti> and we skip the winner :)
<robru> ok
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * began work on jenkins replacement / ephemeral PPAs.
<robru>  - can run parameterized jobs
<robru>  - stream console output
<robru>  - host old logs with meaningful permalinks
<robru>  - can create & delete PPAs, but can't devirt them yet
<robru>  - none of the useful features are hooked up yet (eg, can't actually build packages yet)
<robru> lp:cupstream2distro
<robru> * some minor hotfixes in response to various fires that happened relating to diff generation and invalid bzr commit author names.
<robru> worked with #webops to reboot servers with security fix.
<robru> (done)
<pitti> robru: wohoo!
<chiluk> slangasek skip me today... sprinting.
<pitti> cyphermox: ?
<cyphermox> yep
<cyphermox> MIR:
<cyphermox> - review barbican
<cyphermox> - review designate
<cyphermox> trusty:
<cyphermox> - debug oem mode install (bug lp: #1547630)
<cyphermox> - deploying using MAAS on powerVM
<cyphermox> - discussion on ifupdown networking restart w/ support
<cyphermox> - final 14.04.4 testing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1547630 in debian-cd (Ubuntu) "Server 14.04.4 OEM Install option doesn't work" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1547630
<cyphermox> - fix kernel cli separator in debian-cd
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - add mokutil to live seed
<cyphermox> - debug syslinux w/ gcc 5
<cyphermox> - debug ubiquity crash w/ new upower
<cyphermox> - fix ubiquity crash when non-free is disabled
<cyphermox>  - investigate MTA preseed for mdadm in server seed
<cyphermox>   - smoser added mdadm in server seed and noticed debconf questions during install
<cyphermox> - investigating ubiquity 2.21.45 breakage
<cyphermox> - prepare grub-ieee1275 nvram handling change
<cyphermox> - review libtimezonemap merge from mterry
<cyphermox> - yet more debugging of lvm on mpath
<cyphermox> Â±other stuff:
<cyphermox> - ITPs for TPM stuffs
<cyphermox> - discuss grub-ieee1275 upgrade process w/ infinity
<cyphermox> - investigate debootstrap InRelease support (bug lp: #1485511)
<cyphermox> - ubiquity fix for dmidecode on skylake
<cyphermox> (âdone â)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1485511 in debootstrap (Ubuntu) "ISST-KVM:CTE:R3-0:raing12: Base system install fails with "Debootstrap Error :Invalid Release signature (key id 40976EAF437D05B5) " using Ubuntu 15.10 latest daily build (20150805)" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1485511
<doko> - build vim-*-py2 packages for users who can't yet switch to Python3
<doko> - add packaging for talloc, tdb, ldb Python3 bindings
<doko> - split out a openjdk-8-jdk-headless package from openjdk-8
<doko> - gcc-4.8 cross updates for trusty
<doko> - gccgo-9, gcc-5 updates
<doko> - fixing regressions in twisted 16.0.0
<doko> - dicuss how still to enable -fPIE by default on amd64 and ppc64el
<doko> - gcc-6 updates, report upstream issues
<doko> - investigate mariadb-10.0 build failures on s390x, LP: #1530482
<doko> - finally finished gnutls and bind9 transition, fixed bind9 udebs
<doko> - debian-installer fixes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1530482 in mariadb-10.0 (Ubuntu) "s390x builds on Launchpad run out of memory" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1530482
<doko> - cleaned up component mismatches, graphs are starting to look useful again
<doko> - cleared up NBS except for two php packages
<doko> - cleared update_output.txt a lot
<doko> - helping with php7.0
<doko> - got python3.5 and the pip stack migrating to the release pocket
<doko> - gdb-7.11 final release
<doko> - more multiarchifornications
<doko> - dicussions about symbols files
<doko> - tested and uploaded elfutils kernel debug info fix on ppc64el
<doko> - and the usual small transitions, ftbfs, MIRs, nagging, ...
<doko> (done)
<xnox> nice.
<pitti> cyphermox: what's wrong with networking restart?
<cyphermox> apparently, people want to use that
<pitti> doko: many thanks for clearing up c-m, it's soo much better to read already
<caribou_> pitti: someone is (yet again) asking for it to be fixed
<cyphermox> (especially with upstart)
<xnox> .... but it "works" with upstart =) as in, restart networking -> does nothing and tells people to go away.
<cyphermox> pitti: so I was asked to look into it, and I did and wrote down my notes
<xnox> caribou_, interesting. I wonder if we should show them systemd-networkd where all interfaces grow unlimited configuration (things are only added, never removed in networkd)
<pitti> xnox: your turn, btw
<xnox> ok.
<xnox> we were talking =)
<xnox> Merge acpid (upon doko's request)
<xnox> Uploaded juju patch to make it work with daily streams
<xnox> mdadm is now used to assemble ISMS and DDF raids
<xnox> bug fix to opencryptoki, missing symlinks to some s390x-tokens
<xnox> did review, merge, upload for cloud team of the livecd-rootfs
<xnox> did a couple final dh_python2 uploads, and thus doko remove python-support from the archive
<caribou_> xnox: and a lot of people are "very" happy about that :)
<xnox> Fixed old bugs: bug #1317153
<ubottu> bug 1317153 in os-prober (Ubuntu) "os-prober 90fallback - kernels detected out of order" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1317153
<xnox> Made qemu backport friendly into the cloud-archive
<xnox> Improved sysconfig packaging for MIR
<xnox> Fixed libica for MIR, which got rejected, instead of opencryptoki got demoted to universe.
<xnox> Staging installer changes for uploads post milestone release
<xnox> done.
<xnox> caribou_, upstart->does-nothing or the excellent-networkd? Or both?
<caribou_> xnox: we're talking trusty
<cyphermox> xnox: what installer changes? I'm curious because I have some things pending on my list
<barry> xnox, doko python-support \o/
<caribou_> I'm also sprinting this week so nothing to report
<caribou_> (done)
<xnox> cyphermox, bits for s390x e.g. tweks in parted for default filesystem handling to be per disk, and possibly further changes here and there.
<barry> LP: #1547196; LP: #1440564; LP: #1508081; LP: #1547370
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1547196 in freetype (Ubuntu) "Removal of revert_scalable_fonts_metric.patch causes ugliness in Claws-Mail" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1547196
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1440564 in xdiagnose (Ubuntu) "please use Python3 for all scripts" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1440564
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1508081 in ubuntu-system-settings (Ubuntu) "Fails to receive OTA updates" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508081
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1547370 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "package update-notifier-common 3.163.1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1547370
<barry> python-lockfile 0.12.2-1 (review & sponsorship); python-pex 1.1.2-1; tox 2.3.1-4 (and other related proposed migration problems); LP: #1546982; debian bug #813992 (wheel 0.29.0-1); LP: #1546447 (python-pip 8.0.2-8); syncpackage both wheel and pip
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1546982 in python-genty (Ubuntu) "[MIR] b-d's of python-hypothesis: python-flaky and python-genty" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1546982
<ubottu> Debian bug 813992 in python3-wheel "wheel: Does not work with python-keyring â¥ 8.0" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/813992
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1546447 in python-pip (Ubuntu) "error processing archive /var/cache/apt/archives/python-pip-whl_8.0.2-7_all.deb: trying to overwrite '/usr/share/python-wheels/html5lib-0.999-py2.py3-none-any.whl', which is also in package python-html5lib-whl 0.999-3build1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1546447
<barry> Python 3 only: now just the most difficult samba-libs work to do
<barry> --done--
<xnox> cyphermox, not much. there are debian bugs filed for all of them, and launchpad issues too. I can pass them over to you as well.
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Debug failure of armhf/s390x testbeds; turns out new lxc completely breaks this; downgraded, bug pending
<pitti>  - Fix proxy setting in armhf/s390x LXC workers
<pitti>  - Work around "lxc file push" regression that broke the LXD runner (#1548878)
<pitti>  - britney: Add force-badtest hint for architectures
<cyphermox>  xnox: why do you fail to complete on my irc client?
<pitti>  - britney: Avoid confusing (because often wrong) version numbers for "in progress" tests
<pitti>  - britney: Introduce a new state for regressions overridden by hints, to make reading and parsing excuses easier
<pitti>  - britney: Support force-{skip,bad}test hints for multiple versions
<pitti> distro:
<pitti>  - ubiquity: Fix crash when trying to talk to upower (#1547956)
<pitti>  - ubiquity: Fix FTBFS due to new grep 2.23
<pitti>  - upower: Fix crash regression (#1547793)
<pitti>  - plymouth: Fix passphrase input at boot when booting without "splash" (#1432265)
<pitti>  - initramfs-tools: Adjust wait-for-root to long-deprecated udev API (#1539195)
<pitti>  - lxd: Fix upgrade failure (#1549133)
<pitti>  - langpack-o-matic: Move from macquarie to snakefruit, as the former is being killed
<pitti>  - langpack-o-matic: Create charm for moving to Prodstack
<pitti>  - moved all remaining main packages to tomcat8, drop tomcat7 from main (#1539903)
<pitti>  - sponsoring shift on Friday
<pitti> â
<pitti> ("HEAVY SNOWMAN" in celebration of the weather)
<xnox> pitti, are you using LXD on s390x already, or not yet?
<pitti> xnox: not yet
<xnox> pitti, ok.
<pitti> xnox: (1) time issue, (2) no images.linuxcontainers.org images yet
<pitti> xnox: I could use the cloud images, but they are a bit of a nuisance
<davmor2> pitti: that snowman is goth you can't blag me ;)
<doko> barry, I think the samba-libs solution is to find a way to move it off the image and only install it on demand for those who want to install a samba printer
<pitti> oh, no sil2100, he excused himself on mail
<xnox> pitti, what's nuisance about them? it's trivial for me to tweak things to generate "better" images.
<pitti> bdmurray: ?
<bdmurray> further work on devops setup of the error tracker
<bdmurray> discussions with stub regarding dse cassandra
<bdmurray> worked on creating a way to disable LP bug creation in the error tracker
<bdmurray> investigation into bind9 crash retracing
<pitti> xnox: -> #u-devel
<doko> pitti, caused by a bug in grep?
<bdmurray> attended meeting re: automated upgrade testing
<bdmurray> review of automated upgrade testing work
<bdmurray> built / tested new version of ubuntu-release-upgrader for laney (LP: #1548858)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1548858 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Trusty â Xenial upgrade window vanishes with no crash" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1548858
<bdmurray> tested debian-installer bug LP: #1547630
<bdmurray> â done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1547630 in debian-cd (Ubuntu) "Server 14.04.4 OEM Install option doesn't work" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1547630
<bdmurray> research into python import issue bug LP: #1547370
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1547370 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "package update-notifier-common 3.163.1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1547370
<barry> doko: after chatting w/the fedora guy trying to do essentially the same thing, you are probably right
<pitti> doko: bug or changed behaviour, not sure
<pitti> bdmurray: why do you want to disable bug creation, OOI?
<tdaitx> infinity is not around... so here I go
<tdaitx> * TCK 7 (Trusty/AMD64)
<tdaitx> - Fixed & refactored scripts, updated TCK config files to conform to the new tests
<tdaitx> - Fixed run failures/errors
<tdaitx> - Rebasing my fixes into proper commits
<tdaitx> - Preparing some documentation on how to set it up
<tdaitx> Next:
<tdaitx> * Setup and run interactive tests locally
<tdaitx> * Update scripts and config files to run TCK 8
<tdaitx> (done)
<xnox> pitti, AOB?
<bdmurray> pitti: When we cut over to the new cassandra database there will be some time when the db should be read only. It also makes sense for staging as the created bug would be written to the wrong db.
<pitti> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<pitti> xnox: sorry, still catching up with reading :)
<xnox> So I have two merge proposals, that need someone to review and merge:
<xnox> Britney: https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/britney/deps-components/+merge/286511
<xnox> Germinate:
<xnox> https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/germinate/+git/germinate/+merge/285180
<pitti> xnox: ah, I didn't merge that yet; TBH I'm a bit uneasy about such complex changes without proper integration test cases
<pitti> they are likely to break with merging from trunk (which got quite some refactoring)
<xnox> both are trivial python scripts. thus hopefully everyone on our team can review them =)
<pitti> I realize that writing tests is some effort as the current "mock" archive doesn't do components yet, so that needs to be added
<xnox> pitti, i was not notified of any conflict yet, but i can re-merge. I can certainly write some tests, but the ones that were in, were all about autopkgtest integration which are nice, and don't cover anything else =)
<pitti> xnox: I didn't merge with trunk yet
<xnox> pitti, ah, ok.
<xnox> so can people please try to review and run above codes? we do have germinate users and britney users right?! =)
<pitti> I'll review the britney one
<pitti> someone else can take germinate?
<xnox> barry, ? =)
<xnox> barry, it is simple graph processing of the archive in pure python =)
<barry> xnox: opening some tabs is all i'll promise right now ;)
<barry> xnox: ping me if i don't get to them soon-ish
<pitti> ok, anything else from anyone?
<pitti> l
<pitti> ok, then thanks everyone!
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 25 16:25:48 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-25-16.02.moin.txt
<barry> thanks pitti !
<caribou_> thanks pitti
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-02-21
<cpaelzer> o/ ?
<caribou> o/
<powersj> o/
<rharper> cpaelzer: not sure, eh?
<rharper> o/
<rharper> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 21 16:00:16 2017 UTC.  The chair is rharper. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rharper> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rharper> let's review
<rharper> last weeks log has 6 items to review  if I'm reading the log right
<nacc> o/
<rharper> #link https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-02-14-16.00.html
<rharper> rbasak:  did you get to review MRs ?
<rbasak> I did
<rbasak> I updated the minutes
<rbasak> I have one item remaining - handle seeds with powersj
<powersj> ah! yes
<rharper> excellent
<rbasak> powersj: can do that after this meeting if you're free?
<powersj> yep
<rharper> #info rbasak completed MRs
<rharper> #info rbasak to work with powersj on seeds (iotop & nicstat)
<rharper> jgrimm: any update on server packages for new or missing merges?
<rbasak> The second one should probably be an #action? So it gets carried over if I fail.
<rharper> y
<rharper> #action rbasak to work with powersj on seeds (iotop & nicstat)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to work with powersj on seeds (iotop & nicstat)
<jgrimm> rharper, sorry on another meeting atm.  i did a sweep last week, but I'll do another one weekly.
<rharper> ok, I'll re-action that
<jgrimm> ack, that works
<rharper> #info jgrimm reviewed server packages for new/missing MRs
<rharper> #action jgrimm to review server packages for new/missing items that need merging
<meetingology> ACTION: jgrimm to review server packages for new/missing items that need merging
<rharper> ok, that's all of the previous actions, let's move on
<rharper> #topic Zesty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Zesty Development
<cpaelzer> nacc: should we inform a bit on the postgres 9.6 cleanup that is needed?
<rharper> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<nacc> cpaelzer: probably worth it, yeah
<nacc> cpaelzer: although that's post-z, right?
<rharper> #subtopic blueprints
<rharper> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<cpaelzer> nacc: somebody (=us) has to get in touch with an AA soon or the release Team will hate us in the release week
<cpaelzer> for all the blockers on that in proposed
<cpaelzer> the real 9.6 is zesty+1 - that is true
<rharper> cpaelzer: shall I record an action for you then ?
<rharper> or you can add one yourself with the right words
<rharper> I think
<cpaelzer> rharper: na, we would carry that a too long time to qualify as action here
<cpaelzer> let me just inform a rough summary
<rharper> ok
<cpaelzer> so a fallout from pitti leaving is that we decided to stick with postgres 9.5 in zesty
<nacc> cpaelzer: i thnk we shoudl ask to remove 9.6 from z-p
<cpaelzer> 9.6 in proposed has various issues and unblocking it so late will cause issues
<nacc> cpaelzer: and then we can fix up excuses, right?
<cpaelzer> nacc: exactly
<nacc> cpaelzer: i can file the bug today
<nacc> cpaelzer: if you haven't already
<cpaelzer> that would be perfect nacc
<nacc> rharper: action, please :)
<cpaelzer> into the future nacc and I will do an explicit 9.6 transition in zesty+1
<rharper> #info postgres 9.6 not ready for zesty, stick with 9.5 for zesty
<cpaelzer> and later on postgres 10.0 gets released on november 8th
<rharper> #action nacc to file bug to remove 9.6 from zesty-proposed
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to file bug to remove 9.6 from zesty-proposed
<cpaelzer> towards that we need to decide if that is stable and good for 18.04 LTS
<cpaelzer> I think that is the summary and the action is good
<cpaelzer> thanks nacc and rharper
<cpaelzer> BTW last stable release MRE is complete
<nacc> cpaelzer: nice work!
<cpaelzer> pg-repack need sponsoring on bug 1664478
<ubottu> bug 1664478 in pg-repack (Ubuntu) "New upstream microreleases 9.3.16, 9.5.6" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1664478
<cpaelzer> if one could look
<nacc> cpaelzer: yep, was on my list for today
<rharper> we're past Freeze, so hopefully folks already landed any FFEs needed
<cpaelzer> I'm already preparing upload permission things
 * cpaelzer is silencing, lets go with rharper FFE question
<rharper> jgrimm: do we have a list of FFEs we're tracking ?
<rharper> if any  at this point for our blueprint ?
<cpaelzer> hm, could we quickly query what FFEs others filed to get a feeling what might be coming
<jgrimm> rharper, yes the bp will be a good place to put them.  off the top of my head, python-django
<nacc> cpaelzer: fyi, LP: #1666566 filed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1666566 in postgresql-9.6 (Ubuntu) "Please remove postgresql-9.6 from zesty-proposed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1666566
<rharper> #action jgrimm to add python-django FFE to server blueprint
<meetingology> ACTION: jgrimm to add python-django FFE to server blueprint
<cpaelzer> subscribing
<rharper> anyone else here have an FFE for server packages?
<rharper> if so, please add it to the blueprint
<rharper> #info ensure to add link to FFE for server-related packages to the blueprint (servercloud-z-server-core)
<rharper> #subtopic Release Bugs
<rharper> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rharper> I don't see anything there that doesn't already have attention
<rharper> #info no items of interest at this time
<rharper> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<caribou> outstanding SRU followed by STS :
<caribou> #info SRU are pending for : ifupdown, systemd, sosreport, cups, multipath-tools, sssd
<caribou> that's all I have
<rharper> ok
<cpaelzer> I was on several SRUs as well this week
<cpaelzer> #info DONE Qemu (3/2) 1587039 1640382 1655225 Libvirt (1/4) 1637601 1659769 1620407 1641618 Postgres (3/1) 1664478
<cpaelzer> #info INPROGRESS Qemu (2/1) 1641532 Qemu (2/4) 1490611 1646240 1660946 1664622 pg-repack (1/1) 1664478 Libvirt (1/4) 1665410 + one more that needs analysis
<cpaelzer> notation is package (#releases/#bugs)
<rharper> great
<rharper> #action rharper to verify systemd in bug #1649931
<meetingology> ACTION: rharper to verify systemd in bug #1649931
<ubottu> bug 1649931 in resolvconf (Ubuntu Yakkety) "systemd-networkd needs to ensure DNS is up before network-online.target" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1649931
<rharper> heh, well, systemd in xenial which has an SRU in flight
<rharper> ok
<rharper> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Last week completed 16.04.2 ISO testing, triaged Zesty ISO failures, and got ppc64el ISO tests 100% pass on xenial and yakkety. Submitted merge request to add git support to jenkins-launchpad-plugin (jlp), and reviewed MAAS' testing with respect to curtin.
<rharper> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> Zesty LVM bug LP: #1664731
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1664731 in debian-installer (Ubuntu Zesty) "zesty lvm install hangs while creating device mapper device" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1664731
<powersj> This, short, week I will be looking at curtin vmtest failures at the moment; trying to triage some and will send email out shortly to get some help/pointers. Need to fix up my jlp merge request after the review caught some test failures, and then I will complete bug triage.
<rharper> #info qa to inspect curtin-vmtest failures this week
<rharper> any questions for powersj ?
<rharper> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Nothing to report from us
<rharper> thanks
<rharper> #info None
<rharper> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<rharper> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<rharper> #info no discussion
<rharper> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rharper> anyone heading to events?
<rharper> #info nothing mentioned
<rharper> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rharper> Alright, open mic time
<cpaelzer> I think we missed an action item last week, teward showed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NGINX and jgrimm suggested to get one for qemu
<cpaelzer> I already had important comments about the understanding and proper update of the machine types delta at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QemuKVMMigration
<rharper> cpaelzer: sorry
<cpaelzer> It wasn't in the actions, so you didn't miss it
<cpaelzer> but I did that already, so let me just point to the new page
<cpaelzer> the reason to do so was
<cpaelzer> due to the qemu & libvirt cleanup in the zesty cycle I actually had some good content for such a page.
<cpaelzer> So I created one for (advanced) Bug reports and packaging guidance
 * cpaelzer is seacrhing the link
<cpaelzer> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/CoreVirtualizationPackaging
<cpaelzer> Feedback welcome, but it is also a Wiki so feel free to help directly.
<rharper> #info cpaelzer brought up additional information around qemu/libvirt machine type migration, requests feedback
<rharper> cpaelzer: excellent
<cpaelzer> and packaging, but I think the info is fine
<rharper> any others
<cpaelzer> I really recommend to read this if one is going to touch libvirt/qemu packaging
<cpaelzer> avoid my faults :-)
<rharper> hehe
<rharper> alright, I've bungled this enough
<rharper> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<rharper> #info Meeting again in a week, roughly: date -d "+1 week -30 minutes" -> Tue Feb 28 10:00:59 CST 2017
<rharper> #info Chair will be powersj
<rharper> and that's it!
<powersj> \o/
<rharper> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 21 16:31:24 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-02-21-16.00.moin.txt
<nacc> rharper: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-02-23
<sil2100> o/
 * slangasek waves
<robru> \o
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 23 16:02:17 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> chiluk sil2100 cyphermox infinity tdaitx doko barry mwhudson xnox slangasek bdmurray caribou robru
<robru> wooohooo!
<slangasek> chiluk: hi, anything for this week?
<chiluk> lp 1647389 .. is all ..  It's being a real bear to track down
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647389 in qemu (Ubuntu) "Regression: Live migrations can still crash after CVE-2016-5403 fix" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647389
<chiluk> -done-
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination
<sil2100> - SRU reviews
<sil2100> - Reviewing the xenial linux-hwe kernel SRU (urgent)
<sil2100> - Writing up a script to inform me of any kernel SRU actions required
<sil2100> - Further examination of failing xenial-i386 builds for touch
<sil2100>   * Resolved with latest qtmir landing
<sil2100> - walinuxagent:
<sil2100>   * Discussion with upstream about the configuration split concept
<sil2100>   * Waiting on: final upstream decision and test results
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Removing any hard-coded sector-size values
<sil2100>   * Looking into ubuntu-image CI - e.g. how it's done
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<sil2100> cyphermox sent an e-mail he might be late
<cyphermox> Sorry, around but on my cell, can't really past summary
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> no infinity
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<sil2100> ...or that :)
<tdaitx> * 1 day off (or, more precisely, 2 half-days if anyone cares)
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK
<tdaitx>   * Going through their contribution policy now that we have OCA (thanks steve!)
<tdaitx>   * Reviewing patches that we can (re)submit
<tdaitx> = Other
<tdaitx>   * Checking and learning about debhelper 9 tools (and changes since 5)
<tdaitx>   * Going through a few OpenJDK (7 and 8) LP bugs (LP: #1573673, Debian: #855686, Debian: #853758, LP: #1548434, Debian: #855858, ...)
<tdaitx>   * Merging open-vm-tools (LP: #1651608)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1573673 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "package openjdk-8-jre-headless:amd64 8u77-b03-3ubuntu3 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 2" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1573673
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK 7 (low priority, thus taking longer than usual)
<ubottu> Debian bug 855686 in src:icedtea-web "icedtea-web: FTBFS: configure: error: Package requirements (mozilla-plugin) were not met" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/855686
<ubottu> Debian bug 853758 in openjdk-8 "openjdk-8: Please cherry-pick 8dfbb002197a / fix for JDK-8164293 [memory leak in hotspot]" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/853758
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1548434 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "jmap -heap broken since update to 7u95-2.6.4-0ubuntu0.14.04.1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1548434
<tdaitx>   * Testing new package changes on OpenJDK 7u131, simplifying build
<ubottu> Debian bug 855858 in openjdk-8-jre "[openjdk-8-jre] jexec'ing .jar-files through binfmt doesn't work" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/855858
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1651608 in open-vm-tools (Ubuntu) "please rebase open-vm-tools to version 10.1.0" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1651608
<tdaitx>   * Testing mauve
<tdaitx> = AOB
<tdaitx>   * My beloved router is now a brick unless I manage to write directly to flash, will fetch a replacement today
<tdaitx> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100: removing hard-coded sector-size values> how is that going to work? is this for planning to support 4096 disks?
<slangasek> doko:
<barry> slangasek: LP: #1667313
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1667313 in Ubuntu Image "Stop hard-coding sector size to 512" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1667313
<sil2100> slangasek: not as deep like that for now, but will open up to possibilities like that in the future - for now I want to get rid of hard coding and just trust the sector size that parted gives us
<doko> - was on vacation last Thu and Fri
<doko> - prepare rust packaging, backports for trusty and xenial
<doko> - toolchain updates for zesty
<doko> - new processing, MIRs, ...
<doko> - GCC 7 updates
<doko> (done)
<sil2100> slangasek: since that's what we use for all paritioning right now
<sil2100> slangasek: but on the bug I did mention we should maybe make sector size configurable
<cyphermox> +1
<cyphermox> Default to a sane value and make it configurable. I'm not sure if it was with parted that we sometimes has weird behavior for 4k drives
<sil2100> Bug for tracking: LP: #1667313
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1667313 in Ubuntu Image "Stop hard-coding sector size to 512" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1667313
<sil2100> Now the question would be: should this be in the gadget.yaml or an explicit option in ubuntu-image? Since to me it's more the former
<barry> sil2100: fwiw, i commented on the bug with my thoughts
<tdaitx> btw, if someone knows stuff that should really *not* be used in debhelper (bad idea, doesn't work/scale well, ...), I'm all ears
<sil2100> barry: ah, I see now, thanks! :)
<barry> short week due to usa holiday
<slangasek> barry: your turn
<barry> ubuntu-image: LP: #1665014; LP: #1666173; LP: #1666580; LP: #1631156; 1.0 bug triaging; LP: #1667140
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1665014 in ubuntu-image (Ubuntu Yakkety) "SRU 0.15 tracking bug" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1665014
<barry> debuntu: LP: #1647031 - i re-cherry-picked the network-manager resolved patch, but apparently some people are still having trouble.  should discuss re-reverting for zesty; flufl.bounce 3.0 for python 3; LP: #1647204; gpgme1.0 still blocked (due to beta1 freeze?)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1666173 in Ubuntu Image "Failed to create an image by using ubuntu-image (0.15+snap3)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1666173
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1666580 in Ubuntu Image "sfdisk crash when pc-boot.img is too big" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1666580
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1631156 in Ubuntu Image "flake8.extension entry point has global ramifications" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1631156
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1667140 in Ubuntu Image "Change d/tests to use -O instead of -o" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1667140
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647031 in systemd "systemd-resolvedâs 127.0.0.53 server does not follow CNAME records" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647031
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647204 in gpgme1.0 (Ubuntu) "1.8.0-2 FTBFS in zesty 17.04" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647204
<barry> other: subiquity testing
<barry> --done--
<slangasek> barry: wrt > 440B mbrs... is that in the gadget.yaml spec?  It had been in one iteration when the docs were in ubuntu-image, I think
<slangasek> and xnox is away
<slangasek>  * short week due to swap last Friday
<slangasek>  * processing of old Debian removals as of FF
<slangasek>  * worked with infinity to get the ball moving on powerpc removal
<slangasek>  * continued focus on cloud-image builds
<slangasek> (done)
<bdmurray> worked with mvo regarding receiving snap crashes at errors
<bdmurray> wrote a database query to find snap reports
<bdmurray> worked on snapping apport (crash reports being created)
<bdmurray> discovered snappy bugs LP: #1613971, LP: #1665756
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1613971 in Snappy "using oneshot results in failed service" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1613971
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1665756 in Snappy "environment variable setting issue" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1665756
<bdmurray> updated bug bot for 16.04.2 ISO checksums and recommends
<bdmurray> review of foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> submitted some MIR bugs
<bdmurray> uploaded vlc SRU for LP: #1639750
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1639750 in vlc (Ubuntu Xenial) "subtitle downloads hang" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1639750
<bdmurray> â done
<caribou> LP: #1638695 - python performance regression in Xenial
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638695 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "Python 2.7.12 performance regression" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638695
<caribou> working with doko on this one
<caribou>   VPN reconfiguration
<caribou>   Sosreport 3.3 trusty SRU
<caribou>   Sponsor ceph and sssd SRU
<caribou> (done)
<slangasek> robru:
<robru> * britney email notifications almost complete (thanks to Laney for some gpg example code)
<robru> * some archive maintenance mentoring from cyphermox
<robru> (done)
<slangasek> email notifications> nice!
<sil2100> \o/
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<bdmurray> robru: what does almost complete mean in terms of rollout? what will we see?
<barry> slangasek: the bug someone saw had a proper size in the gadget.yaml but accidently produced a .img contents that was 512 bytes, so it blew up on them.  while investigating i saw an XXX comment about how we should actually check that the contents of an 'image:' specified partition should actually check that it fits in the partition size. ;)  that's the bug i'm fixing (i.e. not specifically mbr related, just any partition with contents >
<barry> gadget.yaml specified size)
<robru> bdmurray: the code is basically complete. all I need is to write some unit tests, and maybe iterate on the wording of the emails that get sent out (they're pretty terse at the moment). I expect to submit for code review tomorrow then roll out monday or tuesday once somebody approves it
<gaughen> slangasek, are we done with status?
<gaughen> that's my question about status
<slangasek> barry: ok.  does the documentation also state that mbr is enforced to 440B?
<slangasek> (if you don't know offhand, that's fine)
<barry> slangasek: 446B to be exact
<barry> slangasek: and yes, we enforce that in the parser
<slangasek> yeah, mine was a question of the documentation
<slangasek> anyway
<barry> slangasek: yep, it's documented here: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/wiki/Gadget-snap#gadget.yaml
<slangasek> ok, great
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> gaughen: your turn :)
<gaughen> so my status less status and more questions
<gaughen> subquity - please give feedback
<cyphermox> Ah yes, thanks for mentioning
<barry> slangasek: we may have to roll back that network-manager change again :(
<barry> slangasek: and can you check if gpgme1.0 -proposed block is explicit or tied to beta 1 freeze?
<cyphermox> Barry provided some good feedback, some of it is due to the run being a dry run
<cyphermox> And to exit subiquity : ctrl-x
<gaughen> thanks barry!
<barry> cyphermox: on the nm cherry pick?
<cyphermox> No, for subiquity
<barry> cyphermox: ah
<cyphermox> Why revert nm again?
<slangasek> barry: because of the DNSSEC thing?
<gaughen> and my other question is how do we look regarding 17.04
<barry> slangasek: yep
<gaughen> feature freeze was last week
<barry> slangasek: it works fine for me, but there have been reports of problems
<slangasek> barry: you can check this directly in lp:~ubuntu-release/britney/hints-ubuntu/ for the rationale, and if it says 'block request by freeze' that always means freeze
<barry> slangasek: ack
<slangasek> barry: I'd really not like to roll it back yet again; maybe this is something cyphermox can look at
<slangasek> to see if we can sort out the DNSSEC problem on the systemd-resolved side sooner?
<barry> slangasek, cyphermox +1 - let's talk after the meeting.  i haven't had time yet to investigate, but i'm fairly confident the cherry pick went okay ;)
<slangasek> yes, it's clear to me this is unrelated to the first issue we were backing out for
 * sil2100 needs to go and play with the cat
<sil2100> It demands attention badly
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> but gaughen asked a question
<slangasek> how do we look regarding 17.04
<slangasek> gaughen maybe wants to expand on this :)
<bdmurray> we look smashing
<barry> tremendous
<barry> best release ever, believe me
<slangasek> nobody has better binaries than us
<bdmurray> we've made it great again
<slangasek> etc
<barry> obquote: yooge
<slangasek> did we get where we needed to be on merges of new upstream versions from Debian before FF?
<slangasek> I know infinity is still working on glibc
 * barry feels pretty good about the packages he's watching
<gaughen> slangasek, any major items that still need to be done? I know about glibc
<slangasek> gaughen: there's your answer, everybody feels good
<gaughen> and slangasek you've been doing package removals, do you need help?
<gaughen> is there any other sorts of things like that which needs to be done now
<bdmurray> I'd like to help removing packages
<doko> dpkg merge?
<slangasek> I'm done with the removals that I think were reasonable for this cycle
<gaughen> slangasek, everbody = barry?
<doko> and decisions about pie on arm64?
<slangasek> and we talked about wanting a report view of process-removals output (bdmurray?)
<doko> although again a bit late for this cycle
<slangasek> doko: infinity mentioned dpkg merge in his email; I'm not sure there's any justification for doing that as an FFe though
<doko> probably not
<bdmurray> slangasek: is there a time to have it done by for it to be useful this cycle?
<slangasek> pie on arm64> I still have the action to follow up with andrewc, we should get an answer on the overall strategy but I think we can safely assume it's not critical for 17.04
<bdmurray> it'd be helpful if xnox looked at bug 1651623
<slangasek> bdmurray: I think it provides some utility at any point ... scanning the list for "stale and ancient things without revdeps that could be removed" can be done whenever someone has a free moment
<ubottu> bug 1651623 in apport (Ubuntu Yakkety) "adt tests fail on zesty for apport" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1651623
<bdmurray> the upstream maintainer of unattended-upgrades hasn't merged a couple of my patches, I guess I should just stick them in zesty now?
<barry> slangasek: looks like gpgme1.0 is listed in the freeze file.  is there any record of the rationale for that?
<slangasek> barry: any rationale is listed in comments in that file
<barry> the only comment in that file says "# generate-freeze-block ubuntukylin ..."
<barry> then "block a11y-..."
<slangasek> barry: essentially, though, our freezes are governed by momentum, where we continue to apply the same process we always have even though this is now opt-in and it penalizes flavors that have opted out but are /derived from/ by flavors that opt in (namely, ubuntu-desktop -> ubuntukylin)
<slangasek> yes, the comment tells you which flavors are frozen for
<slangasek> from there you can look at the Task: field on the binary package to see which flavor is directly responsible, if you care
<slangasek> but if it's in the freeze file, it's because it's part of a milestone freee
<barry> slangasek: cool, that's what i wanted to know.  and that's fine, we can wait until after milestone freeze is lifted (or if prudent, just say it's too late for zesty, or do a ffe)
<slangasek> barry: wait for what exactly?
<slangasek> barry: anything that's uploaded to zesty-proposed today is already a candidate for inclusion and doesn't need an FFe
<barry> it was uploaded several days ago
<slangasek> yes, I'm saying if it's *in* -proposed today, there's nothing you should be filing an FFe about unless you should have filed one before you uploaded it
<slangasek> but filing the FFe or not has no effect on whether the package will make it into the release from -proposed
<barry> cool
<slangasek> there is, in any case, a lot of work to be done to work through the set of packages blocked in -proposed
<barry> yep
<slangasek> (not gpgme1.0, that will go in as soon as the freeze lifts, which should be today)
<slangasek> ok - anything else today?
<barry> cool.  yeah, fixing that package's build problems on arm, etc. was, um, fun
<slangasek> unaligned access? :P
<barry> entropy exhaustion and compiler flags (two separate problems)
<slangasek> ah :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 23 16:49:26 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-02-23-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<barry> thanks!
<xnox> bdmurray, hey, at least mdadm/xenial is now sorted (in -proposed) =)
<bdmurray> well that's something!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-02-20
<WaVeR> Hi Folks
<WaVeR> Anyone from the loco council ?
<WaVeR> @kyrofa>  nhaines meetingology since now 1 week we're still waiting for our Launchapd request ( http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-02-12-20.04.log.html#173 Provisional 1 month extension for SwissTeam and move application process to Launchpad. )
<WaVeR> So please try to create the request/bug before laughing in our approval request
<WaVeR> Seems that the loco council is not able to handle request as before and he's not caring about old loco team. it's not our first approval in case .....
<WaVeR> I waited 1 week before asking. As I also request from you multiple times to delay our approval request
<WaVeR> regardsm
<WaVeR> regards,
<WaVeR> @tribaal>  ping for our request
<WaVeR> I'm sorry but I want to talk give my opinion about the loco council, please don't forget that maybe some loco teams exist before you know about ubuntu so don't laugh about any re-approval. If you don't agree with it...
<wxl> WaVeR: why aren't you emailing the mailing list?
<WaVeR> wxl>  because the loco council use the irc channel to laugh
<WaVeR> so let's make it clear for all of us
<wxl> WaVeR: then if you're trying to complain about the loco council, why don't you contact the community-council?
<wxl> rarely do people actually pay attention to this channel. you're mostly talking to yourself.
<WaVeR> I use the same communication channel as them. If they complain about our re-approval; I can also complain about the delay to create the launchpad entry no ?
<WaVeR> wxl>  everything is logged
<wxl> you can, but i'm suggesting the way you're doing it is ineffective
<wxl> that said, if you're insistent on speaking to the wind, feel free
<wxl> but if you want to actually complain about something that will result in a reasonable response, i would contact the community council. that's what it's for.
<WaVeR> wxl>  they also talk only here without sending any feedback via email/ML so let's do it the same way as they do and see who can follow the logs ã  !
<wxl> WaVeR: you're on your own, then.
<WaVeR> wxl>  yep but evidence will be my ally
<WaVeR> why I should complain if they agree that they should create a launchpad entry
<WaVeR> I'm waiting and asking them to create it
<WaVeR> it's just sad that I vote for some people to be on the loco council and they don't do any difference between teams that exist since years and new teams
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-02-22
<fginther> o/
<sil2100> o/
<philroche> o/
<Odd_Bloke>  /o /o /o
 * slangasek waves
 * infinity grunts
 * rcj naps
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 22 16:01:49 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther juliank)
<slangasek> doko xnox slangasek mwhudson juliank infinity rcj philroche fginther tribaal bdmurray rbalint cyphermox sil2100 Odd_Bloke tdaitx
<rbalint> o/
<slangasek> doko is off
<slangasek> xnox:
<xnox> bah
<xnox> that's not fair!
<xnox> * systemd SRUs are in the unapproved queue
<xnox> * hw-detect/s390-tools srus are in proposed
<xnox> * systemd &cryptsetup in bionic is almost ready to migrate; but open-iscsi regression (hint proposed; and fixing cloud images at the same time)
<xnox> * todo - livecd-rootfs stuff for ubiquities & partman-auto for the point release
<xnox> (done)
<slangasek>  * no meeting last week due to conflict with company internal meeting
<slangasek>  * various vacation days, holidays scattered throughout
<slangasek>  * far too much effort put into getting packages unstuck from -proposed
<slangasek>  * getting everything in order for upcoming retpoline rebuild in bionic
<slangasek>  * working on netplan content
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> juliank:
 * juliank is afraid it's going to be a bit long
<juliank> * made grub show shorter version numbers (bug 1723434)
<juliank> * SRUed ubuntu-release-upgrader fix to artful for bug 1744722
<juliank> * enabled -updates for the devel release on ddebs.ubuntu.com
<juliank> * provided hints for the util-linux SRUs in xenial and artful
<ubottu> bug 1723434 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub2 splash screen displays excessively long package version number" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1723434
<juliank> * fixed console-setup to setup non-us keyboard layouts in initramfs again (bug 1719612)
<ubottu> bug 1744722 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Artful) "Unknown bad source brings up during 'zesty' to 'artful' upgrade and It break the process" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1744722
<juliank> * fixed apt cdrom support (bug 1746807)
<juliank> * made apt check that the release file's date is not in the future (https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/merge_requests/3; not yet uploaded)
<ubottu> bug 1719612 in console-setup (Ubuntu Artful) "non-us keyboard layout not setup in initramfs" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1719612
<ubottu> bug 1746807 in apt (Ubuntu) "18.04 daily installer fails missing kernel" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1746807
<juliank> * uploaded SRU for bug 1732865
<ubottu> bug 1732865 in The Ubuntu-power-systems project "[LTCTest][OPAL][FW860.20] lscpu failed to list cpu max and min frequencies" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1732865
<juliank> * provided a fix for apport's bug 1746874
<ubottu> bug 1746874 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "gnome-shell and Xwayland sometimes leave $HOME/core files (should be /var/crash files)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1746874
<juliank> * merge proposal: add per-teams lists to qa.ubuntuwire.org ftbfs page (https://code.launchpad.net/~juliank/lp-ftbfs-report/teams/+merge/338016)
<juliank> WiP:
<juliank> * trying to make apport accept named arguments (bug 1732962) - might be impossible without some issues
<ubottu> bug 1732962 in Apport "apport uses sys.argv instead of named arguments" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1732962
<juliank> * teach ubuntu-bug about snaps (bug 1729491, PoC)
<ubottu> bug 1729491 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "ubuntu-bug says that snap packages are not installed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729491
<juliank> * started investigating bug 1726068
<ubottu> bug 1726068 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "software-properties closed, closing debconf socket, while aptdaemon is running (package shim-signed 1.32~16.04.1+0.9+1474479173.6c180c6-1ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1726068
<juliank> (done)
<infinity> Oh no.  Is Julian the new Evan?
<xnox> hahahha
<xnox> infinity, it's more like barry though, just a paste of a lot of bug #, which spew out everything.
<infinity> Yeah, fair.  Evan wrote novels.
<infinity>  * glibc 2.27 uploaded to staging PPA:
<infinity>    - will binary copy after all arches build and test a bit locally.
<infinity>    - cross-builds still broken; will revisit after native builds land.
<infinity>  * Some random archive admin work.
<infinity>  * Catching up on the state of the xenial point release.
<infinity>  * Fixed an upgrade bug in e2fsprogs.
<infinity>  * Looking into powerpc-utils upstream changes for Debian and Ubuntu.
<infinity>  * Trying to decide if I replace the clutch in my car or buy a new car.
<infinity> (done)
<rcj> rcj:
<rcj> * Vacation days
<rcj> * Sick days :(
<rcj> * Code reviews, but not nearly enough
<rcj> (done)
<philroche> * Cloud image build system updates
<philroche> * Helping with publication of cloud images with Retpoline patches
<Odd_Bloke> rcj was big in Japan last week.
<philroche> * Updated ubuntu-watch-packages to include package publication date
<philroche> * Created and helped with release of image-status snap https://snapcraft.io/image-status
<philroche> (done)
<fginther> fginther:
<fginther> * Revived the lp-to-trello syncing
<fginther> * Provided test images for walinuxagent 2.2.20
<fginther> * Created notes from all our various TEMP jobs before they are purged
<fginther> * MP to clean obsolete jobs in dev jenkins deployments
<fginther> * Assist with debuging issues around Oracle Classic API usage
<fginther> * Reviewed changelog MPs
<fginther> * Reviewed MPs for automated release promotion for a partner cloud
<fginther> * MP to add jenkaas release publication for a partner cloud (almost ready)
<fginther> (done)
<tribaal> * Vanguard duties
<tribaal> * Driving the "CVE" image release process for retpoline patches.
<tribaal> * Code reviews (not enough)
<tribaal> (done)
<xnox> infinity, you are in north america? and you have a clutch in your car? you drive stick? i'm confused.
<xnox> infinity, you drive stick?
<infinity> xnox: Yes...
<bdmurray> I wrote one for last week and didn't get to say it then so get ready for two weeks.
<bdmurray> investigation into mojo spec CI failures (missing repo phase, wrong secrets, squid issue)
 * Odd_Bloke has visions of infinity on a broomstick.
<bdmurray> Fixed Error Tracker mojo spec so repo phase isn't required anymore
<bdmurray> made a pretty graph of cloud image sizes again
<bdmurray> investigation into dnssec-trigger, pump, openvpn, pppconfig for LP: 1713803
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713803 in open-iscsi (Ubuntu) "replacement of resolvconf with systemd needs integration" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713803
<bdmurray> investigation into LP: #1642812
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1642812 in fwupd (Ubuntu Xenial) "USB devices are not closed when error occurs" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1642812
<bdmurray> tested of balint's u-r-u and update-manager changes for partial upgrades
<bdmurray> looked at how apport generates JournalErrors.txt & discussed with slangasek
<bdmurray> reported e2fsprogs upgrade bug LP: #1749036
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1749036 in e2fsprogs (Ubuntu) "package libcomerr2 1.43.8-2 failed to install/upgrade: libcomerr2:all 1.43.9-1 (Multi-Arch: no) is not co-installable with libcomerr2 which has multiple installed instances" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1749036
<bdmurray> uploaded apport to bionic with JournalErrors change re warnings LP: #1738581
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1738581 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport is leaking environment variables (including passwords!) to public bug reports" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1738581
<bdmurray> fixed apport-collect/apport-bug issue with python vs python3 LP: #1748621
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1748621 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-collect won't work" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1748621
<bdmurray> modified daisy to only retry failures 2x instead of 3x and reduce logging
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding update of daisy in staging Error Tracker
<bdmurray> modified retracer sources to have bionic-updates enabled for ddebs
<bdmurray> tested update of daisy in staging Error Tracker (good)
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding of update of daisy in production error Tracker
<bdmurray> tested bionic's apport-retrace w/ python3-lplib (good)
<bdmurray> tested / reviewed sil2100's KPI regarding team assigned bugs
<bdmurray> reviewed / tested juliank's apport lock timeout change
<bdmurray> made ubuntu-release-upgrader depend on sensible-utils (LP: #1724224)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1724224 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashed with FileNotFoundError in _execute_child(): [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'sensible-browser': 'sensible-browser'" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1724224
<bdmurray> moved graphs from pvt dashboard to public one
<bdmurray> investigation into freedombox-setup for LP: #1713803
<bdmurray> bug triage of apport-collect 16.04 bug LP: #1749222
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1749222 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-collect requires python2" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1749222
<bdmurray> improved code for creating changelogs for partner images
<bdmurray> tested retracing of Ubunty Kylin crash reports (good)
<bdmurray> modified Launchpad retracers to retrace Kylin 18.04 crash reports
<bdmurray> merge rbalint's britney hints for artful (s390x special cases)
<bdmurray> created apport-test-crash for Ubuntu Kylin
<bdmurray> updated ubuntu-release-upgrader to get latest mirrors for 16.04.4(?)
<bdmurray> modified daisy to accept and retrace Ubuntu Kylin 18.04 crashes
<bdmurray> modified daisy & errors charms to stop logging to stdout
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding update of daisy on staging Error Tracker
<bdmurray> investigation into odd retracing failure with LP: #1750842
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1750842 could not be found
<bdmurray> done
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * fixed package builds with Ruby 2.5 in Ubuntu, changes are upstreamed
<rbalint>   - fixed ruby-redcarpet ftbfs (Debian's #888168)
<rbalint>   - fixed ruby-rmagick ftbfs
<rbalint>   - fixed ruby-rack-mount to not use ruby-multimap
<rbalint>   - asked for ruby-multimap's removal LP: #1750740
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1750740 in ruby-multimap (Ubuntu) "Please remove ruby-multimap from bionic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1750740
<rbalint> * auto-remove unused kernels in unattended-upgrades and several further u-u fixes
<rbalint> (done)
<rbalint> the lates u-u fixes are in the repo, not in Ubuntu yet, i'm still testing some additional ones
<cyphermox> MIRs:
<cyphermox>  - pyrfc3339, libglvnd, py-macaroon-bakery, mtd-utils, libfastjson, pysmi, uvloop
<cyphermox> shim-review:
<cyphermox>  - Review IGEL's submission for shim v14
<cyphermox> netplan:
<cyphermox>  - systemd Shutdown= patch submitted upstream
<cyphermox>  - multiple bugfixes
<cyphermox>  - received contributions from dja for bugfixes, new features
<cyphermox>  - [HIGHLIGHT] netplan.io website is up
<cyphermox>  - netplan.io bug fixes
<cyphermox>  - routing code overhaul
<cyphermox>  - major refactoring of netplan commands
<cyphermox> proposed-migration:
<cyphermox>  - attempting to write up a wrapper script for migration next steps
<cyphermox>    - https://code.launchpad.net/~cyphermox/ubuntu-archive-tools/what-next/
<cyphermox> bionic:
<cyphermox>  - ndisc6 tiny Depends fixes
<cyphermox>  - re-testing shim/grub chainloading in MAAS for shim protocols workaround (bug LP: #1711203)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1711203 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Deployments fail when Secure Boot enabled" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1711203
<cyphermox> (done)
<sil2100> - 16.04.4 work (changesets, uploads, tweaks, rebuilds, coordination, stuff)
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Preparing and releasing a revert of walinuxagent to 2.2.20
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews and releases (respins yaay)
<sil2100> - Archive-admin work
<sil2100>   * NEW review of calamares-settings-ubuntu
<sil2100>   * Handling some main inclusions
<sil2100> - Uploading libservicelog SRU with requested cherry-picked fixes
<sil2100> - Setting up the canonical-foundations assigned bug KPI graph
<sil2100> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * Performed SRU verification for Vagrant changes (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1747426)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1747426 in cloud-images "Vagrant <2.x can no longer fetch box metadata from Hashicorp" [High,In progress]
<Odd_Bloke> * Working on a substantial refactor of internal image publication code to support different image bases
<Odd_Bloke> * Worked on moving GCE image publication to our new publication infrastructure
<Odd_Bloke> * Initial engagement with a new partner for image delivery
<Odd_Bloke> * Investigating issues with EC2 images in cn-north-1
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> tdaitx:
<tdaitx_> * OpenJDK 9/10 as default JDK
<tdaitx_>   - Testing maven reverse dependencies and reverse build dependencies
<tdaitx_>   - Fixing LibreOffice build failures
<tdaitx_> * Initial setup to get LibreOffice and Tomcat running with OpenJDK 9
<tdaitx_> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100: everything looking good for the revised .4 schedule?
<sil2100> slangasek: yes, so far all is good
<slangasek> cool
<bdmurray> sil2100: Have you reviewed the ubuntu-release-upgrader upload?
<sil2100> I will be spinning first RC candidates later today or (more probably) tomorrow
<sil2100> bdmurray: no, but I can
<infinity> sil2100: We should talk before you do that.
<bdmurray> that which?
<slangasek> sil2100: any help needed flushing the SRU queue into -updates?
<sil2100> slangasek: no, I think we'll manage, we're looking through -proposed with jibel to see which packages we feel confident in actually flushing
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> any other questions on status?
<sil2100> infinity: ok! You mean, talk before spinning the images, right? :)
<infinity> sil2100: Possibly, yes.
<bdmurray> juliank: Do you want me to look at the apport test failures for the multiple core issues?
<juliank> bdmurray: I thought it was one failing test, and you were going to delete it; was I wrong?
<bdmurray> juliank: I believe there were a couple but that was last week so ?
<juliank> oh, ok.
<juliank> I don't mind, I'm not going to look at them today
<juliank> at least
<bdmurray> Okay, if I get to it I'll let you know.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1385524 is uh interesting
<ubottu> bug 1385524 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "update-manager-text crashes in all supported releases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385524
<bdmurray> Its been broken forever
<slangasek> huh, incoming queue is looking quite large
<slangasek> update-manager-text?  do-release-upgrade's ugly cousin?
<bdmurray> So I wonder if we should just drop it.
<slangasek> I agree
<bdmurray> So target and card it?
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> (inprogress)
<slangasek> (done)
<bdmurray> I ran into bug 1749036 during a partial upgrade
<ubottu> bug 1749036 in e2fsprogs (Ubuntu) "package libcomerr2 1.43.8-2 failed to install/upgrade: libcomerr2:all 1.43.9-1 (Multi-Arch: no) is not co-installable with libcomerr2 which has multiple installed instances" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1749036
<xnox> didn't infinity fix it?
<slangasek> sounds like it; infinity to close out the bug
<bdmurray> bug 1747711 seemed like something we might want to keep an eye on
<ubottu> bug 1747711 in file (Ubuntu) "file mis-identifies modern executables as application/x-sharedlib" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1747711
<slangasek> bdmurray: it doesn't seem important to me; am I missing something?
<bdmurray> slangasek: No, probably not.
<slangasek> "Consequently, only non-PIE executables can be opened in graphical file managers such as nautilus" - I don't think that's a common method for opening programs on a modern desktop
<slangasek> declining then
<bdmurray> Also when I tested with nautilus I didn't see that behavior.
<slangasek> bdmurray: should LP: #1749199 have an assignee?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1749199 in upstart (Ubuntu) "purge conf files on removal of upstart (was session fails to start after an upgrade from xenial to bionic)" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1749199
<xnox> i've hit that bug
<bdmurray> then you sound like a good candidate for fixing it!
<slangasek> ok, I think we should take this for bionic
<slangasek> interestingly I don't have those here
<slangasek> oh because I purged
<slangasek> LP: #1512322
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1512322 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "dpkg assert failure: dpkg: ../../src/packages.c:245: process_queue:" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512322
<slangasek> more low-numbered bugs
<slangasek> trigger cycle
<slangasek> taking
<bdmurray> it looks like rbalint is working on bug 1698159 already
<ubottu> bug 1698159 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "linux-cloud-tools version specific packages are being removed by unattended-upgrade's Remove-Unused-Dependencies" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1698159
<rbalint> yep
<bdmurray> slangasek: so should we target that then?
<rbalint> need the apt-side fix however, too
<rbalint> imo the apt-side part is more important
<bdmurray> is that something juliank is aware of?
<rbalint> the u-u part comes as part of kernel autoremoval - and protecting running kernel
<juliank> I vaguely recall something about that
<slangasek> agreed that we should take it
<bdmurray> okay
<slangasek> the patterns in the generated /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01autoremove-kernels just need to be updated to include linux-cloud-tools-foo
<juliank> We can fix that in the next apt upload, that should just be some line added in the conf file with the proper regex :-)
<slangasek> /etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal
<juliank> No, /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01autoremove
<juliank> needs linux-cloud-.* I guess as VersionedKernelPackages
<juliank> Well, I guess both works
<juliank> We use that for headders, and linux tools, too, though, so it's probably the right location
<slangasek> juliank: ah, you're right, /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01autoremove, I was vague on the specifics of where the code lived
<slangasek> I think that's enough within bugs, shall we move on?
<bdmurray> sure
<rbalint> slangasek: i have a candidate
<rbalint> LP: #1737441
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1737441 in python-apt (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/unattended-upgrade:11:__GI___libc_free:operator:__gnu_cxx::new_allocator:std::allocator_traits:std::__cxx11::basic_string" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1737441
<rbalint> i'm hitting it frequently now in u-u testing
<rbalint> like 2 out of 3 runs when upgrading a lot of packages
<slangasek> ok, taking
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> I'll likely be out tomorrow
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 22 16:56:59 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-02-22-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<sil2100> Thanks o/
<cyphermox> ear
<Odd_Bloke> nose
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-02-20
<diddledan> anyone here for the meeting?
<guiverc> o/
<diddledan> \o
<guiverc> (i'm assuming it's the meeting i think it is though)
<diddledan> yes it is :-) your application to be a member
<guiverc> i'm in the right place :)
<diddledan> wxl, tsimonq2, bashfulrobot any of you around?
<diddledan> I think we might have to defer till a later date, guiverc :-(
<guiverc> it happens.
<diddledan> well that's time. sorry we couldn't get a quorum, guiverc :-(
<guiverc> thanks diddledan
<diddledan> feel free to pop your name against the next meeting time you're available
<bashfulrobot> diddledan: sorry, it was 4am in my time zone.
<diddledan> :-)
<diddledan> the three names I quoted were the only ones that were actually connected to IRC at all :-p
<bashfulrobot> diddledan: irccloud ftw??? Haha.
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-02-18
<joeubuntu> Hey all.
<didrocks> hey hey!
<joeubuntu> Is it just you and I didrocks ? Anything we need to review?
<didrocks> joeubuntu: looks like it, Iâm handling the desktop MIRs and letâs just skip the review for the week IMHO.
<joeubuntu> ok. have a great day didrocks !
<didrocks> and have another meeting when everyone is around
<didrocks> thanks, you too joeubuntu :)
<doko> sorry, late here. just would like to make sure that we don't miss any new stuff when the freeze is approaching
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-02-20
<bdmurray> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbalint> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 20 16:03:06 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform)
<bdmurray> bdmurray mwhudson tdaitx rbalint sil2100 doko xnox infinity vorlon waveform juliank
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding ET mojo spec jenkins run failing
<bdmurray> reading / posting on Raspberry Pi forums re Ubuntu
<bdmurray> writing / discussing ubuntu-patch-status specification
<bdmurray> uploaded u-r-u fixing LP: #1834501
<bdmurray> testing updated linux-firmware-raspi2 and 802.11ac
<bdmurray> sru-review of containerd for mwhudson
<bdmurray> short week due to a holiday
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1834501 in lxd (Ubuntu) "do-release-upgrade from bionic->any disables lxd without snapstore access" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1834501
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<bdmurray> rbalint: how about you?
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * proposed migration: task
<rbalint> * ftbfs fix: flatbuffers
<rbalint> * SRUs: unattended-upgrades
<rbalint> * speeding up unattended-upgrades in progress
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> rbalint: Do those SRUs need review?
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<rbalint> bdmurray, sil2100 kindly did them
<sil2100> Skip
<sil2100> plz
<doko>  - finally sent the python2 removal email
<doko>  - python3.7 removal: https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/python3.8-only.html
<doko>  - icu transition
<doko>  - working on a gcc-8 upstream issue, armhf, for the 8.4 release
<doko>  - gcc-8 update
<doko>  - gcc-9 update, add the fix for -O3 ppc64el endless loop
<doko>  - some unrelated uploads/transitions
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> xnox:
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * short week, out last Friday and this Monday
<vorlon>  * proposed-migration and merges
<vorlon>  * a few more i386 autopkgtests passing
<vorlon> (done)
<bdmurray> waveform is ill
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> you guys are too fast
<sil2100> I'm ready
<bdmurray> go for it
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Some kernel SRUs
<sil2100> - Looking into the quirk check-free-space update-manager crash bug - already fixed
<sil2100> - Looked into bubblewrap/libcap2 ADT issues, filled bugs in LP and Debian
<sil2100> - Refreshed core16 images
<xnox> bdmurray:  i was still in IBM call sorry.
<sil2100> - Archive administration work
<sil2100> - Poked people to get Dave added to the right teams for pi-gadget commit access
 * xnox starts typing my own notes
<sil2100> - netplan:
<sil2100>   * Played around with the code
<sil2100>   * Looked at the NetworkManager read-write spec, answered some questions, asked a few more
<sil2100>   * Prepared packaging for the required libnetplan library, did some test builds
<sil2100> - Prepared some symlinks to pi4 images on nusakan
<sil2100> - Interviews
<sil2100> (done)
 * juliank ready
<juliank> * learning more about grub scripting and dmi, and modaliases
<juliank> * apt 1.9.10
<juliank> * started breaking the APT ABI in master
<juliank> * learning how to build images locally with ubuntu-cdimage and friends
<juliank> * sponsoring maas deb2snap uploads for ack and co
<juliank> * fixing apt fuzz segfaults in tagfile parser
<juliank> * python-apt:
<juliank> - ported to pybuild
<juliank> - fixed segmentation fault in python-apt
<juliank> - added set_priority calls for rbalint
<juliank> - made it build against apt master
<juliank> * fixed aptitude
<juliank> * broke shim? it can't load fwupd on focal, investigating did not yield useful results so far
<juliank> * found i915 patches
<juliank> * "testing" mesa 20 from proposed :D
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> xnox: are you ready?
<juliank> thanks xnox for ubuntu-cdimage tutorial
<xnox> Good progress on icu transition, about just a dozen packages left
<xnox> Ubuntu-core-initramfs did upload with better cryptsetup, still needs work as post-initrd boot is still borked up a bit.
<xnox> Subiquity luks is done in edge channel now, itâs nice.
<xnox> Done
<xnox> juliank:  your welcome =)
<xnox> bdmurray:  let's call that my status
<bdmurray> xnox: works for me
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1863532
<ubottu> bug 1863532 in python3-defaults (Ubuntu) "Invoking "python" brings inappropriate response from command-not-found when python3 installed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1863532
<bdmurray> this seems worth taking
<bdmurray> I'll target and card it
<bdmurray> bug 1863195
<ubottu> bug 1863195 in dh-python (Ubuntu) "py3compile should not emit python runtime warnings during dist-upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1863195
<bdmurray> I also saw this during an upgrade
<bdmurray> This would add a lot of noise to debugging dist-upgrades
<doko> I don't care, do what you have to do
<rbalint> +1 for carding it
<bdmurray> We'll talk about this at the sprint in Frankfurt but will also target and card it
<bdmurray> bug 1862846 is already targetted and in progress
<ubottu> bug 1862846 in util-linux (Ubuntu Focal) "Crash and failure installing focal" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1862846
<bdmurray> bug 1861655
<ubottu> bug 1861655 in The Ubuntu-power-systems project "[Ubu 20.04][kernel-5.4.0-12-generic][WSP-DD2.3] Unable to install Ubu 20.4 on NVMe disk" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861655
<bdmurray> we'll card that
<bdmurray> It looks like bryce has made progress with bug 1861472 but has a lot of philosophical questions in there
<ubottu> bug 1861472 in openssh (Ubuntu) "upgrade from fresh bionic to focal needlessly prompts user" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861472
<bdmurray> vorlon will follow up on the questions
<bdmurray> bug 1861470 sounds familiar did we discuss it?
<ubottu> bug 1861470 in linux-signed-5.4 (Ubuntu) "BIOS logo reappears mid-boot after the purple screen" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861470
<vorlon> is this the one I've commented on?
<vorlon> yeah
<bdmurray> This sounds like something we should coordinate across teams so a spec would be appropriate to get agreement and buy in.
<bdmurray> Or start via an email which xnox will send.
<bdmurray> bug 1861082 is a duplicate and think is a won't fix from us
<ubottu> bug 1861082 in apport (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-bug doesn't know how to file bugs against snaps" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861082
<bdmurray> because there isn't any information provided by snaps about where bugs should go
<bdmurray> I seem to recall some previous work about apport telling you something is a snap e.g. if you do ubuntu-bug git-ubuntu
<bdmurray> and that does tell you something
<bdmurray> xnox will do some stuff with that bug
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1842439
<ubottu> bug 1842439 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-gtk crashed with SIGSEGV in _gtk_settings_get_screen(settings=0x0)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1842439
<bdmurray> That errors bucket is somewhat large so I think its worth having a look. Agreed?
<sil2100> +1
<bdmurray> rls-bb-incoming is fine
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon> [LINK] https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/focal/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> the top one is libyaml-libyaml-perl, which is stuck in both Debian unstable and -proposed because of some upstream incompatibilities
<vorlon> I took this one last time but didn't make any progress on it
<vorlon> I'm inclined to deprioritize it, unless someone else is keen?
<xnox> kick it out of -proposed?
<vorlon> xnox: why?  it is likely to be fixed eventually in Debian
<xnox> if it can't migrate, and we can't update the package if we need to = bad
<xnox> cause /this/ version will never migrate
<vorlon> when have we ever updated this package
<xnox> =)
<xnox> lolz ok
<vorlon> xnox: no, it's a /related/ package whose autopkgtests are failing
<xnox> ah
<vorlon> and that package might get fixed so that they can go in together
<xnox> ok
<vorlon> so I would leave it there and ignore unless something else comes up that makes it a priority
<vorlon> gmp
<xnox> open a bug report with update-execuse tag explaining this?
<vorlon> rbalint: you took this one last week, do you need any help?
<vorlon> xnox: ok
<rbalint> gmp is mine, behavour changes
<vorlon> I'll do that
<rbalint> need revdep fixes, on it
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> boost-defaults
<vorlon> xnox: need any help here for this transition?
<xnox> can we just migrate it?
<vorlon> sounds like no (britney is right!)
<vorlon> and sounds like boost-defaults+icu is going to be ready to go soon
<vorlon> pyserial/mu-editor
<vorlon> waveform took this
<vorlon> waveform: (when you're around) any progress on pyserial, mu-editor on armhf?
<vorlon> libsereal-decoder-perl is tdaitx, who is also not around, carry over
<vorlon> icu, as discussed
<vorlon> openjdk-lts is blocked on the i386 autopkgtest regression
<vorlon> well, "regression"
<vorlon> doko: do I need to dig up my patch for i386 autopkgtests and send it to you?
<vorlon> or have you talked to tdaitx about this?
<doko> vorlon: not yet, he's still lunching :-/
<vorlon> doko: so will you follow up with him or should I dig up my link?
<doko> maybe digging it up is safer
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> apt + libzstd
<vorlon> juliank: ^^ any insight?  do you want to take this and dig into it?
<vorlon> might just need a retry
<juliank> ill loo
<vorlon> ok
<juliank> k
<vorlon> xfsprogs, entangled with icu
<vorlon> procps: this was my upload, I've pinged the server team about figuring out why postgresql-common doesn't like the new version, I'll re-ping
<vorlon> (the postgresql-comomn tests require a VM rather than a chroot, so I can't be bothered to reproduce it locally ;p)
<vorlon> lintian
<vorlon> ftbfs
<vorlon> who wants this one?
<vorlon> bdmurray: ?
<vorlon> and I'll take netbase, which is munin, which is flaky
<vorlon> bdmurray: can you take lintian?
<bdmurray> okay
<vorlon> thanks
<vorlon> and that's the list for today
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> I'm out starting the 25th
<juliank> I'll have to land libapt-pkg6.0 next week before FF. I might still want a FFe to add more patterns later when I'm less busy
<ahasenack> can I bring something up? (don't know what aob is, any other business?)
<doko> ahh, I wanted to point out the two pending transitions:
<juliank> ahasenack: yes it is
<doko> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/python3.8-only.html
<bdmurray> its not ahasenack other business though
<juliank> bdmurray: that's true
<doko> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/icu.html
<doko> help on those is welcome
<vorlon> doko: from what xnox says, icu should be "done soon", are there specific things here that you and xnox want help with?
<xnox> doko:  are unknown actually bad? or unknown actually good?
<vorlon> I can pitch in but don't want to duplicate effort
<juliank> bdmurray: we could invite him to share, though, let's be friendly
<xnox> vorlon:  there are like 12 packages left, i'm not stuck yet. if i do get stuck i'll ask for help.
<vorlon> ok
<doko> xnox: I'm ignoring unknown
<xnox> so far it was fallout from new SDL2 and new CMAKE nothing related to icu itself, just generic bitrot FTBFS
<bdmurray> ahasenack: what do you want to bring up?
<ahasenack> my topic is bind 9.16, upstream's "lts" stable version. isc-dhcp, bind-dyndb-ldap (universe) don't build with it, and debian has come up with https://salsa.debian.org/dns-team/bind9-libs/commit/40cab7029da3680cb9e58fa849018d942a6013b1
<xnox> ahasenack:  i asked them to release LTS stable in time for ubuntu LTS.
<ahasenack> which is package 9.16.x as just libraries, to keep isc-dhcp happy, and ship 9.16 with the full blown server
<xnox> ahasenack:  my hope was that we will take it.
<doko> anyway, if anybody is picking up a python3.8 issue, just mention it on irc
<ahasenack> yeah, I've been working on 9.15.8 for the past few days, trying to pacakge it, check the differences, etc
<ahasenack> this affects also freeipa, but it's my understanding we removed it from focal already, due to java issues, or something like that
<xnox> ahasenack:  we do want to keep isc-dhcp working
<xnox> ahasenack:  so i guess we do need to do this mess, and take it into focal
<juliank> :/
<xnox> don't care about bind-dyndb-ldap, but we do care about isc-dhcp to be working
<ahasenack> #security also prefers to have 9.16 as the server
<vorlon> xnox: do you want to create a card for the isc-dhcp work?
<xnox> can we fix isc-dhcp or is it hard?
<ahasenack> and is ok with having 9.11 as libs only, even though they are used (for what?) in isc-dhcp
<xnox> or like make isc-dhcp static link?
<xnox> cause i'm not sure we want to expose old libs for everyone
<xnox> ahasenack:  it is ok for having 9.11 as libs only, yes.
<ahasenack> there are also the udebs which I don't know how they are used
<ahasenack> debian's 9.16 package doesn't build them
<vorlon> only in d-i, so let's just break those deliberately
<vorlon> ;p
<xnox> ahasenack:  it's isc-dhcp which is used in d-i.
<ahasenack> I mean, I know it's in d-i, just not how, or how to test it
<xnox> ahasenack:  hence you'll probably need the old bind libs as udebs
<xnox> but not the new ones
<ahasenack> xnox: the bind9-libs src pkg from that salsa link above builds the udebs
<ahasenack> the 9.11 ones
<xnox> yes
<ahasenack> so it looks like a working plan
<xnox> yeap
<ahasenack> but wanted to check with you
<ahasenack> specially because we will have two major versions of bind 9 in main then
<ahasenack> even though one only builds libraries
<vorlon> :/
<xnox> yes
<xnox> ahasenack:  alternative is to build systemd-networkd netplan python3.8 into initramfs and udebs
<ahasenack> I don't know about building isc-dhcp with static bind9.11 libraries
<xnox> ahasenack:  drop / break isc-dhcp
<xnox> and thus drop / break ifupdown
<juliank> nooooooooo
<ahasenack> I tried merging isc-dhcp once from debian, couldn't do it. Too much undocumented history
<xnox> which is not going to happen
<xnox> ahasenack:  i think people at this point depend on the bugs in isc-dhcp as stable ABI
<juliank> but .. can't it go to universe?
<xnox> juliank:  we use it in the initrd
<juliank> ifupdown is in universe
<xnox> juliank:  isc-dhcp
<juliank> hmm
<vorlon> xnox: isc-dhcp is also used in initramfs
<ahasenack> I was told by upstream that isc-dhcp is on life support
<vorlon> sure, but in favor of what
<ahasenack> isc-kea probably
<juliank> systemd dhcp client?
<ahasenack> ah, mixed streams, sorry
<vorlon> juliank: in initramfs
<vorlon> that's not a change to make for 20.04
<juliank> yes
<juliank> :D
<vorlon> did we manage to close out this meeting, or is it going to go forever because bdmurray is afk? :)
<xnox> juliank:  i don't think we can use networkd dhcp client stand alone, as it requests different set of DHCP options / not enough for like ISCSI root mount on Oracle
<bdmurray> I'll close it out
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 20 17:07:59 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-02-20-16.03.moin.txt
<rbalint> o/
<ahasenack> ok, so I'll continue exploring that bind9 plan then? bring in bind9-libs 9.11, build 9.16 server, following debian?
<xnox> yes
<ahasenack> and keep isc-dhcp working
<ahasenack> :)
<xnox> yes
