#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-29
<charlie-tca> Good morning
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-30
<charlie-tca> micahg, want to give me an endorsement? https://wiki.uibuntu.com/CharlieKravetz/XubuntuProjectLeadNomination
 * micahg seems to be having an issue w/the wiki ATM
<micahg> charlie-tca: do I still need to send a mail to the CC?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> what? I got ahead of you?
<micahg> ok
 * micahg is just running a little behind
<charlie-tca> heh, alpha1 is out thursday this week
<micahg> yep
<charlie-tca> which reminds me, I gotta get a message out to vinnl for the news bulletin
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> testing is now started for Alpha1. Xubuntu desktop images are ready. 
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu images can not be done using VBox now since 3d is not working in it and Unity/compiz requires it.
<mhall119> yeah, that's biting me
<charlie-tca> qimo?
<mhall119> no, just wanted to play with unity
<mhall119> and also to get compiz working on my VM at work
<charlie-tca> oh, yeah. I bought an ATI card for it
<mhall119> I'll be starting work on Qimo soon
<mhall119> I need to learn how to build an ISO from seeds
<charlie-tca> still can't use VBox, but at least I get a working desktop with Unity
<mhall119> I need to try it on my netbook, see if it's fast enough
<mhall119> pre-compiz unity wasn't
<charlie-tca> It has improved some with compiz
<mhall119> I'm going to make a new bottom panel for Qimo, using Python
<charlie-tca> Neat!
<mhall119> found an existing Python dock I can use for reference, and I've already got the XDG menu stuff figured out
<charlie-tca> Of course, now in Ubuntu w/unity, you can't really get most of the things to work. Basically, you can install it and run what's on the dock
<mhall119> that'll remove 50% of my desktop customization
<charlie-tca> I don't know if they put the panel back, without it you don't have alt+F2
<mhall119> yeah, qimo won't be using Unity or Gnome-Shell
<mhall119> it'll be Xfce or what they're calling "2d" Gnome
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> what a deal, huh?
<mhall119> yeah
<mhall119> Edubuntu is sticking with "2d" gnome too
<mhall119> but the future of that is in question
<charlie-tca> It is supposed to there for Natty, or did they change that again?
<mhall119> no, it'll be there for natty
<mhall119> but beyond that, I don't know how long Gnome will support it
<mhall119> I assume that installing xubuntu-desktop on a natty-gnome install will give me the same packages/setup as installing from the xubuntu iso would, right?
<charlie-tca> It should
<charlie-tca> But it will have a lot of extra stuff from the gnome/ubuntu install
<mhall119> cool, cause I'm installing that in VBox now
<mhall119> that's fine
<charlie-tca> hm, Xubuntu alternate images failed to build today. Many hash sum mismatch errors in the build log
<charlie-tca> rebuilding now
<mhall119> charlie-tca: know of any good tutorial for me to learn how to build ISOs from seeds?
<charlie-tca> I don't. Maybe cody-somerville does, though?
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville, ^ ^ ^ 
<mhall119> for the past two Qimo releases, I've been manually unpacking Xubuntu ISOs, making my changes, then re-mksquashfs/mkisofs-ing
<charlie-tca> That seems like the hard way, too
<mhall119> yes, but it required the least understanding
<mhall119> and at the time, I had more time/energy than understanding
<charlie-tca> :-)
<mhall119> I also had a good tutorial on doing it that way
<mhall119> but I want to move towards doing things the "right" way
<mhall119> Qimo 1 I didn't even have .deb packages
<mhall119> so every time I re-built an ISO, I had to remember which programs to add and which to remove, then copy my config files to the right places
<mhall119> I like the new Xubuntu wallpaper
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, you here today? Our alternate images are failing to build
<charlie-tca> I had them rebuild it, but it failed again.
<mhall119> oh hey, I like the new GTK/xfwm theme too
<ochosi> mhall119: what theme are you talking about, bluebird, greybird or something else?
<mhall119> bluebird
<charlie-tca> mhall119, you did not see it already?
<mhall119> can I change the colors on that in a .gtkrc file?
<mhall119> charlie-tca: no, first time
<charlie-tca> I think it is really good
<ochosi> mhall119: i'm currently reworking it a bit, less blue. that's why the new version is called "greybird". feel free to test it and feed back: http://shimmerproject.org/hg/bluebird-colors
<mhall119> how hard would it be to change the blue/gray to pinks?
<ochosi> in the newer theme it should be rather easy-ish
<ochosi> depending of course on how pink you'd like it ;)
<mhall119> cool, I might use it for Qimo
<ochosi> what's Quimo? Quimo for kids?
<mhall119> Qimo (no 'u'), yes
<ochosi> ah, right, sry :)
<ochosi> sure, if you need help with the pink feel free to ping me
<mhall119> cool, thanks
<ochosi> i'm currently a bit busy with work so i won't promise much
<mhall119> that's okay, I can find my way around most of a gtkrc file
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, never mind, according to <cjwatson> will require shell access to antimony. 
<mhall119> well, I seem to have fu-bar'd my gnome setup already...
<ochosi> mhall119: the bluest part of the theme is the menubar i guess, and that's a pixmap...
<mhall119> okay, I can make a different image for that
<ochosi> or just use gimp to change the hue ;)
<mhall119> what day were xubuntu meetings scheduled for, Tuesday or Thursday?
<charlie-tca> Thursday
<charlie-tca> 19:00 UTC
<mhall119> dang, I'm gonna miss another one :(
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-01
 * micahg just discovered MOTU has upload rights for the xubuntu package set
<micahg> cody-somerville: mr_pouit ^^
 * micahg wonders if that's because all the packages in the packageset are in universe
<mr_pouit> yeah, I think it was demoted to universe before these packageset were set up
<micahg> mr_pouit: right, but why would MOTU have upload rights to the pacakgeset?
<mr_pouit> micahg: I don't think I care about archive reorg and package sets as the wiki page still has a big "THIS IS AN UNAPPROVED DRAFT. EXPECT SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES." at the top
<micahg> mr_pouit: ok, well, I guess it's kinda moot at the moment anyways
<micahg> I was just curious
<micahg> mr_pouit: one of the things discussed at UDS was to have MOTU be able to upload what's not in any packageset
<mr_pouit> well, I thought that ~ubuntu-dev should be able to upload in anything, even if it's in a package set
<mr_pouit> but it probably changed again
<micahg> mr_pouit: ~ubuntu-dev is anyone with any type of upload rights
<micahg> ~ubuntu-core-dev would be able to upload anywhere
<micahg> while ~ubuntu-motu who's main focus should be the unmaintained part of the archive would get whatever is left
<mr_pouit> "Most noticeably, it is expected that the ubuntu-core-dev and motu teams will effectively be collapsed into a single team, provisionally entitled simply "Ubuntu Developers". Members of this team will have upload rights to all packages in Ubuntu, with the possible exception of a small number of "restricted package sets" determined to require greater experience."
<mr_pouit> so maybe they changed again :)
<micahg> yeah, that's been revised :)
<mr_pouit> ok, so I'll look into it when they think it's worth taking the time to explain what changed to people who don't go to UDSs... which will probably be after they implemented everything, unfortunately :(
<micahg> mr_pouit: well, I'm happy to pass along what I learn, I guess my question is do you want them to be able to upload after the archive reorg (I can add the appropriate topic for the next UDS), BTW it's also some of the other pacakgesets as well, not just xubuntu
<mr_pouit> micahg: I think it's safer, because I'm the only active dev with upload rights in xubuntu currently... cody is totally inactive since one year or more, so if I decide to leave, or if I don't have time, then xubuntu is stuck =]
<mr_pouit> so, it's either "have more devs in ~xubuntu-dev", or "allow motus to upload as well" :)
<micahg> mr_pouit: I hope to join xubuntu-dev at the end of the cycle :)
<mr_pouit> yay, more active people :p
<micahg> but that's a good point, hmm, it'll be worth at least a hallway discussion at some point if not a whole session, thanks for the input
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> Making friends and infuencing people... I broke natty alpha1 bad
<charlie-tca> :-)
<charlie-tca> (and it is ubuntu, not xubuntu)
<cody-somerville> lol
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-02
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> ochosi, thorwil will be getting in touch with you about the themes and wallpaper
<vinnl> charlie-tca, can I add the announcement?
<charlie-tca> yes, but it did not release yet. We are still testing images
<vinnl> Ah OK, then I'll wait a little bit
<charlie-tca> It should be soon though
<vinnl> Great :)
<charlie-tca> vinnl, release is out
<vinnl> Great, I'll post a news item :)
<charlie-tca> thank you
<vinnl> Done :)
<charlie-tca> Natty alpha1 is released! thanks for the great job. 
<charlie-tca> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/natty/alpha1
 * charlie-tca is really glad vinnl knows all these links he gets wrong
<vinnl> charlie-tca, haha, I really just copy a previous announcement that contains the same links for the previous version :P
<vinnl> It's not like it's that much work to do ;-)
<charlie-tca> It's not like I get any of the links right, though :-)
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-03
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<MeltingKeyboard> hi there
<MeltingKeyboard> i have a question
<MeltingKeyboard> where is a high res version of the xubuntu logo
<MeltingKeyboard> preferably svg
<MeltingKeyboard> i am working on updating the example content for 10.04
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
<charlie-tca> I think
<charlie-tca> there is an .svg available there along with the png files. 
<charlie-tca> Thanks for doing that, MeltingKeyboard 
<MeltingKeyboard> not a problem
<MeltingKeyboard> i was looking for something to do on harvest
<MeltingKeyboard> and this one caught my eye
<MeltingKeyboard> they really need some updating
<MeltingKeyboard> thank you for the link
<MeltingKeyboard> that will work very well
<MeltingKeyboard> cheers
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-04
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<ochosi> charlie-tca: so, is natty already broken by the panel or does it still work?
<charlie-tca> Haven't updated today yet, so I don't know. 
<charlie-tca> It should not break it unless you force the upgrade
<charlie-tca> ochosi, thorwil in artwork wants to get with you about the wallpaper, icons, and stuff I don't know
<ochosi> yeah i read your ping, he hasn't contacted me yet
<mr_pouit> ochosi: it's broken now ;)
<ochosi> hey mr_pouit 
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> good to know
<charlie-tca> Oh, goody
<ochosi> so i'll wait a bit until i install it
<mr_pouit> if you really want daily lives, I can remove all panel plugins from the seeds
<mr_pouit> (and put them back when they are fixed)
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> We are okay without them for now
<charlie-tca> It should just leave us with the one there if they don't run
<charlie-tca> and, if it doesn't, there is one sitting in the alpha1 directory
#xubuntu-devel 2010-12-05
<dhean_diana> download this http://www.1filesharing.com/download/UKSU96DW/psyBNC2.3.2_1.rar
<TheSheep> this is getting annoying
<charlie-tca> TheSheep, got any suggestions? 
 * micahg pinged an IRC admin
<micahg> but usually it's hard to stop
<charlie-tca> micahg, Does it help?
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: not really, it's a different host and nick each time
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-28
 * phillip is trying to connect my hp RJ316AA to ubuntu_studio 11.10 running xfce any help?
<phillip> bluetooth pc card mouse
<GridCube> phillip, that sounds more like a support question than a devel one :) might i suggest you ask on #xubuntu ?
<Unit193> That sounds more like a UbuntuStudio question...
<phillip> ok ty
<edii> hey, i just got an initial release for the menu manager up
<edii> and i put it on a ppa: https://launchpad.net/~edii/+archive/xubuntu-menu-manager
<edii> not sure if it's packaged correctly and all :D
<edii> anyhow, if someone could take a look at it and report back to me :) (if it even works.. only tested on my own workstation and a clean xubuntu install on vbox)
<pleia2> ochosi: apologies, was out of town this weekend (no updates anyway, all is on list)
<ochosi> pleia2: no problem, i just started pinging everyone to get at least some updates for the informal meeting :)
<ochosi> edii: k, i'm taking a look now
<ochosi> knome: btw, testing stuff like the xubuntu-menu-manager or greybird-git or the patched datetime plugin really call for reviving the xubuntu-dev ppa. having those things in a single place would make life for testers easier i guess
<Unit193> Datetime seems to match with greybird, but I don't know hwat it looked like in the older version
<ochosi> Unit193: this is how it's supposed to look with greybird from git: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-11282011-103801am.php
<Unit193> Danit, that blackbird looks so much better :P
<Unit193> Guess I'll have to install that to do actual test
<ochosi> that's still greybird :)
<ochosi> it's just that the package in the ppa isn't new enough
<ochosi> blackbird is still very unfinished, it'd take quite a bit of time that i don't have atm
<Unit193> Oh, I was making a joke, didn't know there was a Blackbird
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> there is
<ochosi> but it's mainly greybird with a different color-set
<ochosi> and it'd need tweaking in quite a few places before i'd call it usable
<Unit193> So greybird got darker? Or personal edit?
<ochosi> edii: you menu manager seems to work. but it adds four items by default (term,mail,browse,filem), which might be annoying. also: it adds xfrun which it seems i can't remove anymore. (i guess you know all that anyway ;) ). it also added additional separators to the menu that don't go away if i remove the bookmarks
<ochosi> Unit193: there was a demand for a really dark theme, not albatross-like or ambiance (which are mixed) , but really darker like NOX. if i have time i'll try to do that
<ochosi> edii: i also have a few remarks about the interface. the frames are a bit too much imo, simple headers (e.g. just make them bold) would work better. it also seems that the list of apps doesn't reflect the currently selected icon-theme (it uses tango or gnome i think) which could cause confusion
<Unit193> Oh, looks like you just made the panel dark :P  I'd wait and take a good long look at "Blackbird" actually...
<ochosi> i'm currently using a semi-transparent panel with greybird, #000 as solid bg-color and 70% alpha
<ochosi> you can try that with a few clicks of the mouse if you like (panel preferences)
<Unit193> I'd have to switch back to greybird again (And I'm trying to get to sleepmode, 04:54)
<ochosi> right, what are you using atm?
<Unit193> One I found on xfce-look. That didn't seem to change all the panel "sections"
<ochosi> mhm, many gtk-themes aren't xfce complete unfortunately
<Unit193> No, I switched to Greybird
<ochosi> good choice ;)
<Unit193> For testing this*
<edii> .
<ochosi> ?
<edii> whoops
<ochosi> :)
<knome> ochosi, hehe yeah yeah, i didn't say we shouldn't use it :)
<knome> madnick, ?
<mm1nd> is there any Icelandic translation for xubbuntu?
<ochosi> no clue tbh :)
<genii-around> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-is seems to indicate there is
<mr_pouit> rather, https://translations.xfce.org/projects/p/xfce/team/is/
<mr_pouit> last commit 1y ago
<mr_pouit> (and anyway, mm1nd already left...)
<genii-around> Interesting, they use different translation teams
<madnick> knome: ?
<GridCube> http://91.189.93.73/qatracker/milestones/204/builds/7196/testcases/138/results
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> probably the first presice test
<Unit193> Precise?
<Sysi> +1
<Unit193> Maybe for Xubuntu, but not overall
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> yeah i meant xubuntu
<GridCube> well theres only two tests on the tracker :P
<knome> any way to make silverlight work in oneiric?
<madnick> knome: moonlight
<micahg> moonlight was dropped from the archive :)
<knome> madnick, won't work with ff8
<madnick> no idea then :P
<knome> micahg, fix it??
<knome> micahg, i need a relatively new version too...
<micahg> knome: no, it's gone :) Microsoft dropped it also :)
<micahg> knome: the version in natty-propsoed might work
<knome> m$ dropped silverlight?
<madnick> Metro ;P
<knome> any possibilities getting silverlight working with wine? :PP
<holstein> its dead right?
<GridCube> knome, what do you want silverlight for? if i can ask
<GridCube> can someone please explain me how to sign the launchpad code of conduct?
<madnick> GridCube: you need to generate a key
<GridCube> ok ill melt some bronze
<madnick> ;)
<madnick> If you click on that place
<madnick> There is a step by step tutorial
<GridCube> its for ubuntu pre unity
<madnick> pre unity?
<GridCube> not even for current ubuntu
<madnick> oh
<madnick> GridCube: tbh i just used seahorse
<GridCube> dont even know what that is
<madnick> http://live.gnome.org/Seahorse
<madnick> its in the repo
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-29
<GridCube> i can't find the ubuntu key server
<GridCube> so this is gonna be anothr year without me signing it
<madnick> keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/
<GridCube> nope
<GridCube> it doesnt work 
<madnick> how do you use it?
<GridCube> No se pudo comunicar con  el servidor Â«pool.sks-keyservers.netÂ»: OK
<GridCube> No se pudo comunicar con  el servidor Â«keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371Â»: Internal Server Error
<madnick> Sorry, I don't know :(
<GridCube> ;)
<GridCube> dont worry
<knome> cody-somerville, have had time to look at launchpad? i just noticed that xubuntu-users is still owned by you too, i suppose it should be moved under the xubuntu team too
<Pjotr> Hello, the translation issue with lightdm-gtk-greeter in Xubuntu 11.10, has been largely resolved now, by means of the new lightdm packages in Proposed. But still one word is untranslated: "Password:". At the request of a developer, I've reported this as a new bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/897166
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 897166 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "lightdm-gtk-greeter in Xubuntu, has one untranslated item" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Pjotr> I'm mentioning it here, because I thought that maybe one of you can help.
<Pjotr> mr_pouit: I also have another request for xubuntu-default-settings: the wallpaper.
<Pjotr> The current default wallpaper of Xubuntu (xubuntu-greybird) is nice, but rather dark and gloomy. I'd prefer a brighter wallpaper for Xubuntu 12.04. In these dark times of economic crisis, people need to cheer up a bit... :-)
<Pjotr> In my opinion, there's a good candidate among the default set of wallpapers: xubuntu-bluebird-notext. Bright blue, clean, makes a good first impression... 
<Pjotr> What do you think?
<Pjotr> I've put my suggestion on Launchpad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/897642
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 897642 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu: a brighter default wallpaper would be nicer" [Undecided,New]
<Sysi> I think highly-saturated greybird is a lot more cheering than pale bluebird
<ochosi> yes, i tend to agree with that
<scott-work> is xubuntu doing an alpha1 iso test? i just told skaet that i wanted to wave doing one for ubuntu studio
<GridCube> scott-work, yes we are
<GridCube> well i am XD
<GridCube> but i can't zsync the new image now :/
<scott-work> hehe, okay, i had seen some statements saying it might not happen, since i just mention it in #ubuntu-release i thought about xubuntu as well :)
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> scott-work, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-November/008060.html
<scott-work> hehe, i see i have that same email in my inbox right now
<GridCube> :)
<rdesfo> hello
<rdesfo> my terminal doesn't recognize the lower case "a" but when I su into a different account it works fine.  Does any one have an idea how to resolve this?
<GridCube> rdesfo, :) thats more a support question you should ask on #xubuntu
<rdesfo> ok thanks GridCube
<pleia2> knome: any further thoughts re: 17:00 on Saturday?
<Sysi> why there are separate "+mac" images of k/ubuntu but not xubuntu? 
<micahg> Sysi: we don't test them?
<Sysi> ah
<micahg> if you have someone committed to testing them, we could probably request those images
<Sysi> they have some fix needed with 64bit and apple's uefi?
<Sysi> I would test them but I won't have time after january.. stupid military
<knome> pleia2, looks like it's working for me
<pleia2> knome: ok, I'll get together an announcement then
<pleia2> (after work :))
<knome> thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-30
<pleia2> erg, formatting of my emails has been all wonky lately, stupid gmail
<pleia2> keeps getting all squished together in spite of me sending it with proper line breaks
<Unit193> pleia2: But you didn't sign it, how do I know it's from you? ;)
<pleia2> knome: hmm, did you ever hear back from IS about the latest revision? (I see it was submitted 10 days ago, but no updates)
<pleia2> (and yes, I know you're sleeping :))
<ochosi> meh, why can't i set the bug-status of bug #897912 to wontfix?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 897912 in murrine-themes (Ubuntu) "Draggable window borders too narrow in greybird" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/897912
<knome> pleia2, they pulled rev 5's to production already
<knome> pleia2, asked them at #canonical-sysadmin 
<ochosi> knome: thanks for the comment on the bugreport, i wanted to add that but then forgot
<scott-work> good morning :)
<madnick> morning!
<scott-work> how are you this morning madnick?
<scott-work> oh, madnick, weren't you working on the lightdm greeter theme?  any idea when that will be pushed to the repos?
<madnick> scott-work: soon :) we are discussing the apperence and similar things :)
<astraljava> Anyone in here knows anything about device entries for SD cards on a card reader? Why they get different device entry mappings sometimes, and how can I force it some particular entry, if it's available?
<astraljava> My google-fu doesn't seem to help now.
<GridCube> astraljava: i think it takes it like an usb drive
<GridCube> i don't know if this could help you http://www.basicconfig.com/linux/mount
<astraljava> GridCube: It wouldn't, as I'm not interested in mounting the device. I just want to have it in one particular device entry, specifically /dev/sdb
<GridCube> mmmhm
<GridCube> so you can get its uuid
<GridCube> and add it to fstab
<GridCube> ?
<GridCube> no, that would be for particular memories and not for slots
<astraljava> And still, fstab deals with mounting a certain device entry to a mount point. It's too late at that point.
<GridCube> mmmhm and this? http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/127
<astraljava> Again, too late. They already have device entries at that time, and they talk about automounting the devices regardless of their entry.
<GridCube> mmmkay, what about this? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Map_Custom_Device_Entries_with_udev
<astraljava> I'm not sure you're seeing the problem here. The device is seemingly randomly mapped to different device entry. udev deals with the entry according to some signals/messages it receives _only_ after the mapping has been done. It's already too late at that point.
<GridCube> oh, okay, i though you needed to tell a card reader what device locations assing to particular slots
<astraljava> Yeah, sorry I might have asked in a confusing manner.
<GridCube> so, astraljava, this wont help either http://reactivated.net/writing_udev_rules.html#example-usbcardreader ?
<charlie-tca> GridCube: looks like we got the same thing out of UDS again. All agreed in person, reality after is we will have to track daily testing ourselves in precise
<GridCube> :o
<GridCube> but i started tracking on qa already
<GridCube> :D but then again i did just one test :P
<madnick> astraljava: is the kernel name the same for the device everytime?
<madnick> (it sorta should be)
<charlie-tca> milestones are tracked on QA tester, daily for us is not
<GridCube> charlie-tca: :/ well... they are
<GridCube> at least they where till yesterday
<GridCube> haven't check today
<charlie-tca> really? Did I look at the wrong report?
<charlie-tca> This week is alpha1 testing, it is different
<GridCube> http://91.189.93.73/qatracker/milestones/204/builds/7196/testcases/138/results
<charlie-tca> We will see after Friday
<charlie-tca> Um, that is "milestones", not daily
<madnick> charlie-tca: they did tell us that, they will look at our needs aswell, and that we shouldnt need to have our own system
<Gridcube> sorry
<charlie-tca> I know, I was there
<charlie-tca> Um, that is "milestones", not daily
<Gridcube> i had to reloging
<Gridcube> but it says daily :(
<charlie-tca> qatracker/milestones... 
<charlie-tca> We will see next week, then
<charlie-tca> They have been tracking Ubuntu daily testing all month, though
<Gridcube> charlie-tca: i would guess thats just  a name that didnt got changed
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> so who is testing this alpha1 that must be done today?
<Gridcube> i could ask the guy on #ubuntu-release , he has been really nice to us :)
<Gridcube> the tracker has almost all amd64 tests done, i will starts some i386 one now
<charlie-tca> never mind. today the priority is to test the alpha1 image if we plan to have it
<charlie-tca> um, there are NO alternate tests done
<charlie-tca> are we only going to have desktop cd?
<Gridcube> i will do alternate
<Gridcube> thats the only ISO i have 
<madnick> I've not been able to test anything this week
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> This is more important than daily tests'
<Gridcube> :)
<charlie-tca> I had a good vacation. Am I still here?
<Gridcube> :D
<Gridcube> you are
<madnick> Welcome back =)
<Gridcube> how do i use the "enviromental variable" http://linux.die.net/man/1/zsync
<Gridcube> \o/ yay! success!
<Gridcube> zsync now works
<Gridcube> at 1kbs
<Gridcube> :(
<Gridcube> :o i already had the latest image :D
<Gridcube> starting alternate i386 tests
<charlie-tca> I don't use the environment variable
<charlie-tca> running 64 bit tests here
<Gridcube> :)
<Gridcube> charlie-tca: mid if i ask you to test something?
<Gridcube> i basically want to know if its a bug or noot
<charlie-tca> go ahead
<Gridcube> when i installed xubuntu on my netbook the alternate cd did not saw any of my network devices
<Gridcube> so it directly stop me from installing xubuntu
<charlie-tca> correct
<Gridcube> i could not continue the installation without a network device
<Gridcube> i don't know if thats a bug ir not
<charlie-tca> it can't see them because networking is not active until the install finishes
<Gridcube> when i used the desktop cd it did recognized both
<charlie-tca> Desktop cd when installing from the desktop has networking active
<charlie-tca> From the menu, it should be just like the alternate cd
<Gridcube> mmm thats weird because on my desktop when using the alternate it does recognizes the wired network
<charlie-tca> wired and wireless are different
<Gridcube> well yes, but it did not recognized the wired on the netbook anyway, and thats not the problem, the problem was that after seeing that i supossedly had not network devices it stop the installation allthogheter
<Sysi> I heard someone telling that and someone responding that it can be skipped
<Gridcube> i just disabled the network cards on the test im doing now, and i did that and it continued 
<charlie-tca> That is normal
<Gridcube> oh ok
<charlie-tca> knome: are you doing the alpha1 release notes? They are normally added to the Technical Overview by the PL
<skaet> knome,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/TechnicalOverview
<skaet> if you could put a summary of what's changed so far on the Xubuntu side, and any bugs you want to warn folks about,  it would be appreciated.  :)
 * skaet thanks charlie-tca for bringing it up.  :)
<charlie-tca> skaet: you are welcome
<charlie-tca> Took me all day yesterday to sync images. I am back today
<astraljava> madnick: Yeah, I would assume as much, as it's the same reader with the same card all the time.
<micahg> welcome back charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> ty
<ochosi> wb charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> ty
<ochosi> bbl
<charlie-tca> hm, alpha 1 starts with sound muted everytime
<charlie-tca> Gridcube: does the install start with sound muted there?
<knome> charlie-tca, no, haven't
<knome> charlie-tca, we do have good tracking of progress and work items though, so it shouldn't be too hard
<Gridcube> haven't ended yet
<charlie-tca> Okay
<charlie-tca> knome: Okay, great!
<charlie-tca> That was always a difficult thing after this first milestone, for me.
<knome> i don't think much has changed for a1
<knome> mostly debian importing
<knome> and some minor changes that affect mostly settings
<knome> charlie-tca, welcome back, btw
<charlie-tca> thanks. Should be around again, 
<skaet> knome,  just add that then.   :)  Key is to set expectations. 
<knome> mmh.
 * knome just woke up from coma-naps
<astraljava> Did you know that you're sleeptyping?
<knome> :P
<micahg> knome: ristretto :)
<knome> micahg, could *you* add that? :)
<micahg> knome: no :), too many things going on right now
<knome> heh, okay
<knome> np
<knome> updated the wikipage
<Gridcube> charlie-tca: the sound is not muted but low
<GridCube_> charlie-tca: did my last message went trhough? the sound is enabled but on like 20%
<knome> pleia2, ?
<skaet> knome, do you want your alternates respun to pick up the LTSP fix that stgraber just landed?
 * micahg didn't think we had ltsp in xubuntu
<charlie-tca> it is a menu option
<micahg> ah
<knome> skaet, why not, if you can do that and it does no harm.
<charlie-tca> We won't have time to re-run all the tests
<micahg> knome: they would need to be retested :)
<knome> okay
<knome> skaet, let's not do that.
<charlie-tca> skaet: Can you carry the tests forward?
<skaet> knome,  heh.   if its not a common path then probably safest to skip it this time around.  (a couple of other uploads happened during soft freeze,  so yes, retesting would be advisable)
<micahg> can it be release noted?
<micahg> charlie-tca: is the option to install locally ltsp or to install remotely on an LTSP server?
<charlie-tca> I don't know. It is an option in the cd menus
<skaet> charlie-tca - http://91.189.93.73/qatracker/milestones/205/history/
<charlie-tca> micahg: i don't have the ability to test it
<micahg> charlie-tca: ah, ok, was just wondering if you knew offhand
<charlie-tca> skaet: it is 4 hours for me just to re-sync the images
<charlie-tca> I never got the images in time to run the early tests
<skaet> charlie-tca,  sorry to be obscure,  the link just shows we now have history ability of what bugs were found against which images now.  :)
<charlie-tca> That's a really good feature
<skaet> charlie-tca, knome - I'm fine with not respinning,  its alpha 1 and this will be fixed in next daily.  Just wanted you to have the option.
<charlie-tca> I can't retest these images, myself. 4 hours to sync, 8 hours to test
<charlie-tca> and a finger with stitches in it from a new cut
 * skaet sorry to hear about the finger... ouch!
<charlie-tca> heh, still going, though
<skaet> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-01
<charlie-tca> Running the last test now for alpha1. Wubi is unavailable for this alpha1; should be in release notes.
<j1mc> thank you, charlie-tca  :)
<micahg> thanks charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/894768 is pretty serious for those installing in a VM
<micahg> and hi j1mc
<j1mc> hey micahg 
<charlie-tca> You are both welcome
<charlie-tca> It is intermittent, but pretty regular on virtual machines.
<Unit193> Launchpad bug 894768 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "Installation randomly fails with: File "/usr/lib/ubiquity/ubiquity/install_misc.py", line 621, in copy_file targetfh.write(buf) IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument " [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894768
<GridCube> charlie-tca, it hasnt happenend to me on the 3 installs i've done this days
<GridCube> but they where all alternate
<charlie-tca> I haven't seen it either, but it still seems to hit a lot of VM's
<charlie-tca> Only seems to be one case on hardware, though
<charlie-tca> For those seeing it, it does block the install
<GridCube> mmkay will have an eye open for it
<charlie-tca> No tests tomorrow, since3 it is alpha1 release day. Daily testing starts Friday
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> so did you talk to stgraber, charlie-tca ?, its just a wrong name on the qa?
<charlie-tca> I have done the milestone testing that is priority. I don't care about daily results today.
<charlie-tca> If you don't get the milestones tested, you do NOT release. It doesn't matter how much daily teting you do.
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> but we where worried about the dailiestoday
<charlie-tca> No, I wasn't. 
<charlie-tca> I was very concerned with getting the alpha1 tests done today.
<GridCube> :o
<GridCube> okay
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> they where done
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I am getting the last one done now
<charlie-tca> I will look at daily logging Friday
<GridCube> i know that the update manager is global for ubuntu
<GridCube> but i get 90% of updates for unity
<charlie-tca> Updates to what is in Main is always priority
<GridCube> yes i figure that much
<GridCube> just saying
<charlie-tca> Universe doesn't see much until after alpha1
<micahg> huh?
<charlie-tca> But as a rule, main is going to see more updates, most of the time
<GridCube> i was talking about oneiric btw
<charlie-tca> apparently, most of our stuff doesn't to keep being updated. Unity does.
<GridCube> yes
<charlie-tca> sorry, thought you meant Precise
<GridCube> :)
<charlie-tca> good night. Tests are good for release.
<skaet> knome,  charlie-tca, madnick - Xubuntu's released.   :)
<knome> thanks skaet 
<pleia2> knome: do we have a release announcement for the site?
<pleia2> oh, you fell off after I asked a question
<pleia2> knome: do we have a release announcement for the site?
<pleia2> or do we want to write one?
<pleia2> where "we" is not "me" because I am at wrk :)
<pleia2> work too
<madnick> knome, ochosi: i need to talk to you about finializing the features of the ldm theme (as in, which features do we expand to there)
<madnick> sorry, have to go. Ill be back in the (very) early morning :)
<ochosi> madnick: ok, let's talk tomorrow then
<knome> pleia2, sure, but that's not highest priority
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-02
<ScottL> knome, i meant to ask you before....how did your meeting with jono go?
<madnick> Im confused, the meeting today is cancelled right+
<madnick> ?* :)
<madnick> knome: i shall need to talk to you about something :)
<knome> sure
<scott-work> good morning xubuntu'ers :)
<ochosi> hi scott-work 
<madnick> morning
<scott-work> ochosi: i hope this coming week to start the theme transition :)  i'll probably download source code(s) and make changes and maybe get it pushed to ubuntu studio bzr by end of weekend
<scott-work> interestingly this will mean that several of the ubuntustudio-* packages for themeing will not be needed anymore and i presume will eventually need to be removed
<ochosi> scott-work: right, yeah, sounds good
 * ochosi is off for lunch
<scott-work> ochosi: when you get back i had wanted to ask you about sounds.  i didn't see anything that suggested xubuntu used custom sounds, as far as you know (or anyone else) is this a true statement?
<knome> scott-work, yeah
<knome> afaik there is no sounds at all in xubuntu
<knome> i mean, why would one want a sound on login?
<knome> :)
<scott-work> i've read some irc where some people who have been very enthusiastic about the ubuntu studio sounds and think they are top shelf
<ochosi> hm, yeah, no, we never had sounds
<ochosi> and i'm not sure i'd want it
<ochosi> it can be really annoying if people in the library open their laptops and you can hear knome say "xuuubuuuntuu" with a ghost-ish voice
<ochosi> having a meeting now, bbl
<scott-work> lol "hear knome say "xuuubuuuuntuuu" in a ghost-ish voice"
<knome> hmm
<knome> my bears eye could say that
<darkblue_b> hi know
<knome> hey
<knome> anyway, ->
<darkblue_b> knome: we are going to solicit new projects for the OSGeo LiveDVD and close the apps that will be included early Jan
<darkblue_b> then freeze early March I believe
<darkblue_b> that is.. 5.5 ?  I think
<darkblue_b> 5.0 went really well.. it was the best for sure.. a lot going on on that disk.. we basically were able to solicit hmm 30? 40? projects to each write their own installl script based on a template we provided
<darkblue_b> the install scripts are all available in svn to the public
<darkblue_b> so other projects that wish to join have a much lower barrier to entry
<darkblue_b> http://svn.osgeo.org/osgeo/livedvd/gisvm/trunk/bin
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-03
<pleia2> good morning
<pleia2> running downstairs to grab some coffee before the sprint :)
<knome> oh
<knome> the sprint
<knome> hahah
<knome> well
<Sysi> so you're drunk?
<knome> looks like i came home the right time ;)
<knome> Sysi, ehh, no?
<knome> just forgot that
<knome> are saying i'm an alcoholic?
<Sysi> possibly.
<knome> based on what?
<Sysi> saturday
<knome> :P
<knome> saturday makes people alcoholics?
<Sysi> possibly
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> ok, sprint time!
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Sprint
<pleia2> beardygnome worked on this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Drafts
<pleia2> it's ideas for the about page, would be nice to get it into a more refined form within the next week
<knome> i can look at that shortly
<pleia2> knome: when you're ready, I just want to quickly go through the items under "To do" before content review
<knome> i partly need to focus on something else, but i'm ready :)
<pleia2> pl
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website
<pleia2> so... under "Footer" "Replace "Xubuntu links" with "Useful pages""
<pleia2> do you mean wording or actually adding links that are useful? :)
<knome> heheh, yeah
<knome> links that are useful
<knome> the wiki links etc can be under the developer tools page
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> I kind of like having the mailing list links in the footer
<knome> hmm
<knome> http://wp.xubuntu.org/developertools/
<knome> i'm really going to build a easy-to-use page of that
<knome> we could probably link to xubuntu-users in the footer
<knome> with "Mailing list for support" or so
<pleia2> what other links are useful?
<knome> link to developer tools
<knome> link to sitemap
<pleia2> faq?
<knome> mmh, that too
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> sup
<madnick> hi, i will join in a second
<pleia2> ok, so let's go with these
<pleia2> Support Mailing List, Developer Tools, FAQ, Site Map
<knome> yeah
<knome> sounds good
<pleia2> next on our To do list: "Fix articles archive"
<pleia2> we want to make the articles stubs instead of full, is that a trivial enough theme thing?
<knome> that's min!
<knome> *mine
<knome> yeah, that's trivial
<knome> i need to create archive.php
<pleia2> ok cool, that's sorted
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> Next... "Think of a good way to present the different mirrors"
<knome> mmh
<pleia2> GridCube: hi! :)
<knome> i'd really want the markup to be clean
<pleia2> how do we feel about how the Natty ones are displayed currently? unclean?
<pleia2> (btw, I will fix to reflect Oneiric today)
<knome> they are too scattered imo
<pleia2> any thoughts?
<pleia2> we should put it in a TABLE!
<knome> maybe.
<pleia2> hah
<knome> with full urls
<pleia2> visible to visitor urls?
<knome> two columns, country and url
<knome> yeah.
<knome> why not?
<pleia2> that seems reasonable
<knome> that would justify using a table
<knome> ;]
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> and the markup would be rather clean
<pleia2> works for me
<knome> and easy to remove/add items
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> ok, I can write that in a bit, then you can clean it up later :)
<knome> sure
<knome> sounds good
<pleia2> great, that's the whole To do list, now we're on the page content review :)
<knome> hehe
<pleia2> as for home/ you sent a mail to the list with a mockup...
<pleia2> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_sprint/website-changes-20111130.png
<knome> yeah
<pleia2> how well does that shrink on smaller screens? (think netbooks, phones)
<knome> the top part: as badly as before
<knome> bottom part: that will shrink better, as each column can be on-top-of-each-other
<knome> phones *should* use the mobile/handheld stylesheet, which ain't done yet though
<pleia2> hm, how can you read it if they are on top of each other/
<pleia2> ?
<knome> lol
<knome> not in the 3d sense
<pleia2> I guess I'm just unconvinced about the 3 columns :)
<knome> Latest news
<knome> blbalbalblablaala
<knome> Second column
<knome> blablablalbabla
<knome> Important links
<knome> lbalbalbalbablabl
<pleia2> oh I see
<knome> ^ like that
<knome> on-top-of-each-other
<knome> ;)
<pleia2> that's great then
<pleia2> oh! I forgot one part about the footer - can we get rid of all the Meta stuff?
<knome> sure.
<pleia2> maybe put Entries RSS somewhere useful, but everything else is bad
<knome> well
<knome> that way we could have both xubuntu links and useful links
<knome> not sure how much sense that makes
<pleia2> I think just useful links is good
<knome> maybe do "useful links" and "mailing lists"
<pleia2> I say just delete meta and have a less crowded footer
<knome> mmh
<pleia2> the lox slid off my bagel
<pleia2> messy breakfast
<knome> lox?
<pleia2> smoked salmon
<knome> hmm
<knome> right
<pleia2> we can think about this footer thing later
<pleia2> I'm happy with the new design :)
<knome> lax (in swedish) == salmon (in finnish; lohi)
<pleia2> ah :)
<pleia2> oh, what will actually be in the Second column on the front page?
<knome> no idea. but i was thinking of putting pages not otherwise linked
<knome> maybe something like the useful links.
<knome> but more links
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> the about page will have to be discussed later, since it's complicated and we need to review it further
<knome> mmh
<pleia2> http://wp.xubuntu.org/tour/
<pleia2> seem ok still?
<knome> pretty good
<pleia2> http://wp.xubuntu.org/help/
<knome> i might need to remove the bottom border on hover for images within a link
<knome> or actually
<baizon> nice look :)
<knome> we need to remove the links from the images
<pleia2> ah, those end up as clickable links
<pleia2> yeah
<baizon> well done
<knome> yeah, you need to specify "no link" when adding to post
<pleia2> thanks baizon 
<pleia2> ok, let me log in here and see...
<knome> sorry for still partly having to focus on something else :/
<madnick> I wonder something
<madnick> How come this does this:
<madnick> http://wp.xubuntu.org/fgdfdfsdfsdfsdf
<pleia2> ok, removed links
<knome> madnick, not-found links apparently show the archive.
<madnick> yup
<madnick> but thats not optimal :P
<knome> o'rly
<knome> :P
<pleia2> ok, fixed clickable images on /help too
<pleia2> I think /help is ok, I added the link to the FAQ last sprint time
<knome> mm-hmm
<pleia2> http://wp.xubuntu.org/press/
<ochosi> sorry i can't join your website-sprint today/now
<pleia2> I think we just need to add links for 11.10, I'll grep through my logs, I post reviews in here pretty often
<ochosi> have a nice evening though!
<ochosi> ->
<pleia2> thanks anyway ochosi, have a good one :)
<pleia2> hm, actually, this page could use some love
<knome> all you need is love
<knome> pappadapaapaa
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> I'll update it in the format it's in and we can discuss this one further later
<knome> mm
<pleia2> http://wp.xubuntu.org/contribute/
<knome> hmm.
<knome> i think we should rethink the images at the top
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> and probably the teams too
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> our wiki pretty well outlines the teams in the menu
<pleia2> we are sort of duplicating wiki content on the site, not quite sure how to reconcile this yet
<knome> mmh
<knome> maybe try to cut down the website content
<pleia2> wiki should probably be more ideas driven and detailed, and we link to wiki from the website
<pleia2> yeah, so website has a quick overview to get people interested, they go to wiki for more
<knome> yep
<knome> wiki is also more easily editable
<knome> at least for the developer community as whole
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> ok, so in the next week I'll go through the contribute/* pages and make some drafts, and suggestions as to what should move to the wiki (it looks like there is some valuable stuff on the site which isn't on the wiki)
<knome> yeah
<knome> sounds good :)
<pleia2> last one! http://wp.xubuntu.org/developertools/
<pleia2> add mailing list to this, any other thoughts?
<knome> well that definitely needs some love
<knome> maybe send a mail to mailing list to get ideas
<knome> what is it what people need the most
<knome> what would they like to see there
<pleia2> ok
<GridCube> i guess
<pleia2> the one last thing I had is that we still have empty "Quick Links" on the right hand side of each page
<GridCube> that there should be links to current xubuntu projects
<GridCube> in the developer tols
<knome> pleia2, yeah. i'm going to add the important links as well as the useful links there
<GridCube> like to shimmer and stuff like that
<knome> pleia2, do you think we want the newest articles there too?
<pleia2> GridCube: ah! upstream
<pleia2> knome: yeah, maybe
<GridCube> something like; "Current Xubuntu Projects" > shimmer, madnick's lightdm API, some other thing
<pleia2> xfce :)
<GridCube> :P xfce
<pleia2> maybe "Related Projects"
<knome> yeah
<knome> that's where shimmer belongs too
<knome> as it's not a xubuntu project
<GridCube> okay :)
<pleia2> ok, added shimmer and xfce
<pleia2> under a related projects heading
<pleia2> hey vinnl :)
<vinnl> Hey :)
<pleia2> I'm about ready to wrap up, anyone have further thoughts?
<pleia2> I'll email the list with our new To Do list :)
<knome> not at this time
<knome> thanks for going through it
<pleia2> thanks knome, madnick and GridCube :)
<madnick> :)
<GridCube> :)
<knome> i don't understand why imagemagick montage creates bigger images than specified in -geometry
<knome> or i do, because that's the *tile* size, but the tile is bigger than that
#xubuntu-devel 2011-12-04
<micahg> knome: when
<micahg> when's the next meeting
<SpiKe_Spiegel> hi all
<SpiKe_Spiegel> I have a question : what version of Xfce is going to be included in the next Xubuntu LTS ? (4.8 or 4.10)
<baizon> for now its 4.8
<SpiKe_Spiegel> Xfce 4.10 final release is planned on March 3th, nearly two months before Xubuntu 12.04 release, so I wonder if it's too late for Xfce 4.10 implementation or not :p
<SpiKe_Spiegel> @baizon: alright
<meetingology> SpiKe_Spiegel: Error: "baizon:" is not a valid command.
<baizon> :D
<baizon> im not a valid command? why why!? :(
<ochosi> SpiKe_Spiegel: yeah, but if you read the xfce-dev mailinglist a bit you know that they most likely won't stick to that date
<ochosi> and morning everyone
<knome> i can't attend meeting this weekend or monday either
<knome> we really need to get a new schedule and meetings that do not pend on me
<ochosi> hey knome 
<knome> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> started to re-organise the greybird code for better readability today
<knome> nice, are you adding comments too?
<ochosi> will take quite some more work, but i think that should also fix most of the bugs
<ochosi> i'm only working on gtk3 atm
<ochosi> what kind of comments would you want?
<knome> at some point it would be nice if the theme documented pretty much every definition
<knome> or at least every definition block
<ochosi> hmm, every definition sounds rather tedious
<ochosi> i mean i can see why it would be useful
<ochosi> but in a way it's a lot of duplication
<knome> it could be a file in the repo only
<ochosi> better murrine/unico docu would be better
<knome> doesn't need to be published, if you think that has downsides
<knome> o'rly...
<ochosi> no, i don't see downsides apart from that being quite a bit of work for me with dubious gain :)
<ochosi> (dubious because you'll hardly hear about it)
<knome> heh
<ochosi> meh, i shouldn't have started with rebasing parts of greybird on ambiance
<knome> hah
<ochosi> otoh it might be the only way to clean up the code where it's messy and fix a few bugs
<GridCube> sup
<GridCube> there is a meeting today?
<madnick> dunno, i don't think so since knome said he cant attend
<GridCube> :(
<GridCube> well luckly classes ended last week so ill be able to attend some meetings i hope
<jussi> knome: ping
<Pjotr> Hello, I'm not sure whether I need to submit a feature request at Launchpad, because maybe the feature involved, already exists.
<Pjotr> I want to lock the panels of Xubuntu and as much of it's desktop environment as possible, for a user who has a history of accidentally damaging his desktop environment (removing panels and such). I know how to do that in Gnome, but not in Xfce.
<Pjotr> Does Xubuntu have this feature, or should I submit a feature request?
<mr_pouit> kiosk mode
<mr_pouit> http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=20556#p20556 for the panel
<Pjotr> mr_pouit: this looks promising! Thank you.
<micahg> knome: is there a meeting today or tomorrow?
<astraljava> madnick said knome cannot attend, so doubtful.
<micahg> meetings aren't incumbent on knome attending
<micahg> ochosi: quadrispro uploaded a new gmusicbrowser to Debian, we'll get it next week
<micahg> and if knome has a problem with the meeting times, let's agree on new meeting times :)
<Unit193> [09:53:36] < knome> i can't attend meeting this weekend or monday either
<Unit193> [09:54:36] < knome> we really need to get a new schedule and meetings that do not pend on me
<micahg> ah, while I was disconnected
<Unit193> micahg: Got a sec (in the other channel maybe) to figure out a FF bug/weirdness?
<micahg> Unit193: was about to head out, but let's see, which channel?
<ochosi> micahg: thanks!
<micahg> ochosi: The only thing I did was not update it :)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> btw, i'm refactoring the greybird code
<ochosi> it
<ochosi> it's a partial rewrite
<ochosi> hope i can fix the few outstanding bugs this way and get a better look in some places
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-26
<ochosi> knome: R is lts, right?
<ochosi> (mostly cause i'm wondering whether we should do lts releases every two years, instead of once a year)
<Noskcaj> ochosi: i think it is just every two years, at least for normal ubuntu
<knome> ochosi, R is not an LTS.
<knome> ochosi, T is
<knome> 14.04
<ochosi> right, i think i misremembered something from UDS
<knome> yes, most probably
<ochosi> was there a definite decision taken at UDS to stick to CD size?
<knome> since we did that with LTS+1, there's no reason to slip now
<knome> because we should've done the decision last cycle
<knome> so we're trying to keep in a CD
<ochosi> not sure i get that rational
<ochosi> e
<knome> well, i'll try to explain
<knome> LTS's should be our main point of focus, right?
<ochosi> do you want me to answer rhetorical questions now? :)
<knome> everything before an LTS is already preparing for the LTS, and 12.10 is preparing for 14.04
<knome> so if we are not going to target a CD in 14.04, why did we do that in 12.10?
<knome> (and use a lot of time, and lost big components)
<knome> *used
<knome> well, i suppose that's the rationale
<knome> and i don't think it's a bad idea, if it's doable
<ochosi> hm, i see it differently i guess
<ochosi> everything from 12.10 to 13.10 is a prep for 14.04
<ochosi> and gives us time to test things
<ochosi> last cycle was hectic wrt the decision of dropping stuff
<ochosi> or dropping cd-size
<ochosi> this cycle we have more time to review and re-think that
<ochosi> and also try to ship a different size
<ochosi> and revert that decision if we find that it was bad
<knome> if we wanted to postpone the decision, imo we shouldn't have tried to fit a cd
<knome> i don't know if you think it makes sense
<knome> but we already did quite a job to stay within the boundaries of a CD
<knome> why revert now?
<ochosi> yeah, i don't see any of those decisions as non-revertible for the next cycle
<knome> and seriously, before 14.04, we're hopefully going to be able to drop some stuff, including python2
<knome> yeah. no reason why they aren't
<ochosi> to bring back some of our default apps to keep them tested, in case we can drop gtk2 and python2 until 14.04 and get everything back "in order"
<knome> i'm just saying if we are going to go over the CD limit, you need to have a good rationale
<knome> because for 12.10 we didn't but we lost gnumeric, gimp and languages
<ochosi> well my point is that we can try 1gb for 13.04
<ochosi> we can even label it as an experiment
<knome> if we are willing to drop those to fit a CD, it must be a damn good reason to go over later :)
<knome> maybe
<ochosi> i wouldn't necessarily advise ppl to upgrade every release anyway
<knome> but that would mean working hard to fit a CD again for 13.10.
<ochosi> well there are damn good reasons to drop the cd size
<ochosi> not only for, but also against
<ochosi> depends, if we find out 1gb is what we want/need to have some "moving space" to stay flexible, that might be our decision
<knome> maybe
<knome> we should discuss that more in our meetings/ML so people can chime in
<ochosi> i just feel we've become highly unflexible
<knome> feel free to start a thread in the ML
<ochosi> if 5mb of space is a problem for the icons
<knome> we've always been at the limits, it's no different this time
<ochosi> (which would bring an obvious advantage)
<ochosi> then i feel we've become too inflexible
<ochosi> it _is_ different
<knome> from my POV, we can drop another language and still be happy.
<ochosi> we went over the limits, and that's why we had to drop stuff we never would've thought off
<ochosi> -f
<knome> i don't completely agree
<ochosi> there were tons of folks who said "gimp is too heavy/large for a default install"
<knome> we've been thinking of dropping gimp in favor of something lighter (nothing good just turned up), and i've been talking about dropping gnumeric too
<knome> it wasn't a random process to drop those two
<ochosi> i know that
<ochosi> i'm just saying i don't like the direction this is going to
<knome> i can see your point
<knome> but i can't fully agree with your worry
<ochosi> being forced to drop apps is fairly different to considering to drop them for usability reasons
<knome> but i'm open for discussion
<knome> yes, i acknowledge that
<Unit193> When/if it happens, when python2 and gtk2 go, that'll free up loads, no?
<knome> i would've been fine to drop gimp+gnumeric before too, even without having. just saying :)
<knome> Unit193, yep
<ochosi> Unit193: good question, i don't think anyone has done the math on that yet
<knome> Unit193, at least gtk2 is quite big
<knome> the math is we gathered >100MB for Q, there can be other stuff as well than python/gtk 2, but those are the big culprits
<knome> it's really hard to calculate accurate/real numbers without doing test builds
<ochosi> gtk2 isn't in those 100mb
<ochosi> we already had that for a few releases
<ochosi> i mean in combination with gtk3
<knome> we need to look at our seed anyway
<knome> if you have ideas how to proceed, feel free to propose on the ML
<xnox> what is xfce gtk3 road map like?
<mr_pouit> post 4.12
<mr_pouit> 4.12 will be gseal at best
<astraljava> gSeal? Gasel? [Steven] Seagull?
<adnan> :))
<astraljava> I put it on a humorous note, but I'm actually curious.
<mr_pouit> astraljava: to be more gtk+3-ready (drop direct access to some widgets private members that was allowed in older gtk versions)
<mr_pouit> xnox: http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap/gtk3
<astraljava> Oh ok, cool. Thanks!
<xnox> so is it ~ 1 year cycles, not 6 month cycles. Interesting
<mr_pouit> (fixed xfdesktop4 and alacarte moved to quantal-updates)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-27
<pleia2> knome: have a chance to take a look at the FAQ? would like to get that published soon :)
<knome> pleia2, i did, and i didn't have much to add
<knome> pleia2, so looks fine for me. just clean it up and publish! :)
<pleia2> ok, I'll clean it up soon :)
<knome> great
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-28
<ahoneybun> anyone with the doc team?
<ahoneybun> pleia2, hello!
<knome> no, we're all hiding
<ahoneybun> knome, hiding
<ahoneybun> I want to know about helping in the offline documentation on the roadmap  for 13.04
<knome> ahoneybun, basically, we're open to any suggestions
<ahoneybun> in ways to improve it?
<knome> if you think there's something we're missing in the docs, or an idea how can we improve/extend what we have now, just go ahead and suggest
<knome> if you're familiar with launchpad and documentation (docbook) translations, we need to set up those as well
<ahoneybun> knome, I did apply for membership for the launchpad group
<knome> if you would like to help with the SRU for 12.04 (we need to rewrite some parts to make it accurate for xfce 4.8 and everything else), that's one thing we should start working as well
<knome> ahoneybun, ah, right. great!
<ahoneybun> SRU...
<knome> ahoneybun, once we have some contributions from you, i'll gladly approve you :)
<knome> SRU as in stable release update; let me explain
<ahoneybun> 12.04.1?
<knome> in 12.04, we have the 4+ year old documentation
<ahoneybun> oh
<knome> we want to update that
<knome> but the documentation we've now written is for xfce 4.10, and some other packages are newer too
<knome> so we need to rewrite those parts to actually match with 12.04
<knome> after we've done that, we'll SRU the new documentation to 12.04.x
<ahoneybun> are there 2 versions for 12.04? the one for 4.8 and 4.10 from the backports?
<knome> no, just one for what's officially supported
<ahoneybun> 4.8 for the 12.04 then?
<knome> yep
<ahoneybun> and 4.10 for 12.10?
<knome> yes
<ahoneybun> knome, should I be running 12.04 then?
<knome> if you want to help with the SRU thing, the easiest way would be to install 12.04 in virtualbox or so
<Unit193> knome: Re: Network section: /var/run/nm-dns-dnsmasq.conf won't tell you, just nm-tool.
<knome> and then simply go throgh the documentation and see if it still matches. where it doesn't, make a note and rewrite
<knome> (we still need to see how we want to do that rewriting part, since we need to maintain two version that we're working on!)
<ahoneybun> knome, where would it be?
<knome> Unit193, right. can you add that to your todo list when we start working on it? or if not willing, add an item to remind me again
<knome> ahoneybun, we're probably trying to work on it on launchpad as much as possible
<ahoneybun> knome, so the docs would be on lp?
<knome> ahoneybun, that's correct. both the 12.10/13.04 and the 12.04 ones..
<knome> ahoneybun, but if you want to start working before we get it all up, comparing locally and making notes is fine too!
<knome> actually, i even think the best way to approach this would be to simply check what doesn't match first
<knome> and create a list of those parts
<ahoneybun> knome, well, I have to get the image first lol, where are the docs locally?
<knome> and then rewrite collaboratively
<knome> ahoneybun, applications -> help
<knome> and the path: /usr/share/xubuntu-docs/desktop-guide/
<knome> (that's for the actual documentation, not the front page "welcome" you get when opening apps -> help)
<ahoneybun> So I read for grammar. spelling, and incorrect data
<knome> umm, no
<knome> well, yeah and no :)
<knome> for the SRU update, we mostly want to find technical inconsistencies
<knome> eg. can you actually follow the instructions and get the desired results, or is something different/missing
<ahoneybun> oh that they work
<knome> grammar and spelling fixes are fine, but those need to be fixed for both docs, so that's not the main focus for the SRU'd docs
<knome> while we go, we might have some inconsistencies between the docs too
<knome> the new version might have an extended section, or something deleted in favor of something different
<knome> but of course, those modifications will not land in the SRU'd docs automatically, if we've set up a different codebase
<knome> and that's what we really need to do once we've started actually rewriting the stuff
<ahoneybun> should I look though the 12.10 Docs then? or wait and look for the SRU in 12.04?
<knome> that depends what you want to work on
<knome> if there's something you think you can improve/extend in the 12.10 docs, that's fine
<knome> if you want to start working with the SRU stuff, that's fine too
<knome> with the latter, i think the best thing to do was to find which sections need rewriting first
<ahoneybun> in the parts about error messages, maybe give a idea what the message would look like?
<knome> so we wouldn't be forking the codebase just yet
<knome> you mean visually?
<ahoneybun> yes
<knome> mmh, maybe we could have some kind of visual "glossary"
<ahoneybun> well you would see a error message from the CLI anyway, but a messagebox about it if your using a GUI application
<knome> yeah, well; we usually know if the message is going to be a CLI or GUI one, because we're the ones telling the user what to do :)
<ahoneybun> true lol
<ahoneybun> oh my new ERB
<ahoneybun> very well done docs, looks wise.
<ahoneybun> grammar and spelling when looking a bit
<knome> yeah, there will be errors
<knome> we were quite busy last cycle with this, and we're happy for the docs to even be in 12.10Â½
<ahoneybun> oh btw
<ahoneybun> in the printer part
<knome> s/Â½/!/
<ahoneybun> says to go to settings manager -> printer settings
<ahoneybun> but it should be settings manager -> printers
<knome> i actually know.. that was changed quite late in the cycle, and we didn't really have a possibility to fix that
<knome> anyway: welcome to the community!
<knome> and thanks for helping out
<knome> i'd suggest you to send a mail to the xubuntu-devel list telling who you are, what you'd like to work on, and on a separate message, any ideas and fixes you have for the docs
<ahoneybun> well I just started!
<knome> pointing out your irc and launchpad nick is good too, so people will be able connect the dots more easily
<ahoneybun> I guess ahoneybun = Aaron Honeycutt is not easy lo
<ahoneybun> l
<knome> it's a bit frantic, and sometimes it might take even weeks until... "oh, so YOU are the one from the mailing list!"
<ahoneybun> lol
<knome> most of the nicks in this channel have nothing to do with real names
<ahoneybun> I feel sometimes to make a new lp because of my new email
<ahoneybun> so Bryan Lunduke wants to connect on Linkedin
<knome> o.O
<ahoneybun> ?
<knome> should we know him? :)
<ahoneybun> oh he is a big open source supporter and ex-ex-host of the LAS = Linux Action Show
<ahoneybun> he even tried to live on the donation model for open source software
<knome> right. i probably should recognize the name, but i still don't...
<ahoneybun> don't worry lol its a big world
<knome> true
<ahoneybun> well, back to looking though the docs
<ahoneybun> the section of "what makes Xubuntu" should include GNU? and Unix?
<ahoneybun> oh should I just write this down?
<knome> GNU's mentioned in "free software"
<knome> unix could probably fit under "linux"
<knome> we decided we don't want to make it too technical or daunting
<knome> kind of "try to let the projects/entities describe them extensively themself"
<knome> if you look around the docs, we're trying to be relatively brief along the way
<knome> not too tight-lipped, but keeping to what is relevant
<ahoneybun> try it really is that way
<ahoneybun> it really is
<ahoneybun> in Ch.2 one of the directions say to go to the xubuntu-logo and go to system then software updater, but I do not have that
<knome> mmhm
<knome> i suppose it would be best if you gathered these on a mail sent to the ML
<knome> that way we'll be able to track down what's to be done
<ahoneybun> I did start writing in abiword
<knome> plaintext works best, but if you think we all benefit of a specific text layouting, that'll be fine too
<ahoneybun> well copying it in a email will be plaintext
<knome> yup :)
<knome> anyway, i should head to bed
<knome> (3:30am here)
<ahoneybun> I mean I did not write everything
<ahoneybun> just enough to find that spot
<ahoneybun> oh thanks for the help
<knome> looking forward to talking with you again
<knome> and again, welcome to the community
<ahoneybun> same here
<knome> np
<ahoneybun> thanks 
<ahoneybun> its 8:30 pm here
<knome> others are willing to help too, just ask if you need something and wait patiently :)
<knome> we're from around the world, so pretty much any timezone should work
<ahoneybun> yep thats all you can do in a IRC lol
<knome> and some of us *cough* stay up late too
<ahoneybun> where are you asia?
<knome> finland
<ahoneybun> I knew it was overseas for that difference
<ahoneybun> well I will not keep you from bed
<knome> yup. not really asia, would need a few hours more to even hit the western parts... :)
<ahoneybun> yea
<knome> anyway, have a nice evening and see you later!
<ahoneybun> you too!
<knome> see you Unit193 and GridCube too! :)
<GridCube> where?
<Unit193> Adios.
<knome> GridCube, here. later.
<GridCube> :P oh, good bye knome have a good night
<GridCube> :D
<knome> ta, you too once you get to bed much much later :)
<knome> ->
<pleia2> so, how *do you* start an application in a specific workspace?
 * pleia2 finishing up FAQ, hopefully
<pleia2> and what do we say about "2. (regressions [messaging-menu])"
<knome> dunno, i'm very tired now
<knome> have to hit the sack soon
<pleia2> ok, I'll finish the rest of the cleanup
<knome> thanks
<knome> i'll be around a lot on friday, so if you have questions, i'll be able to answer those at the latest then
<Unit193> I could tell you how I fixexd the menu. :P
<pleia2> there is a fix in -proposed so we're just telling people to use that if they need it immediately
<Unit193> Messaging menu*
<pleia2> ah
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> sent to -devel too
<GridCube> pleia2, the regresions one was "semi proposed" by ochosi
<pleia2> cool
<GridCube> dont know how that helps, but he should understand at least why he proposed it
<pleia2> ok, hopefully everyone can just chime in on list so we can get this firmed up, thank you
<GridCube> :) 
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-29
<jjfrv8> pleia2, hope this isn't a dumb question: where is the FAQ doc for Q? I'd like to look at the questions you want help on but wanted to compare to what's out there already.
<pleia2> jjfrv8: it's in a xubuntu.org post draft, I don't think we had a public place for collaboration aside general from general discussion here
<pleia2> (and now on list)
<pleia2> they are all similar to past FAQ we've done though
<pleia2> from past releases: http://xubuntu.org/news/category/faq/
<jjfrv8> Yup, got those.  Okay, I'll take a stab at #'s 3 & 8.
<pleia2> awesome, thank you :)
<GridCube> pleia2, i had made this back in the day http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/C2kd45fYMJ
<pleia2> GridCube: ah, yeah, looks like that was mostly copied over and morphed into what we have now
<pjotr> mr_pouit: thanks for fixing the 'double partitions on the desktop' bug!
<pjotr> everybody: I have a wish list for Xubuntu 13.04, that I would like to discuss with you:
<pjotr> 1. LibreOffice in the iso instead of Abiword and Gnumeric. Xubuntu is a full fledged alternative for the big boys Unity, Gnome and KDE. So it needs to have a professional office suite by default. Note that I *like* Abiword; heck, I even translate it upstream. But it's natural place is in a mini like Lubuntu...
<pjotr> 2. Synaptic and GDebi in the iso. Especially Synaptic is such a cool professional tool...
<pjotr> Of course I suppose this would mean a DVD iso instead of a CD iso. But CD's are dying anyway; when I go to a store, it's nearly all DVD-R and DVD-RW that I see on the shelves. Somewhere tucked away you can still find CD-R's, if you're lucky.
<pjotr> What do you think?
<elfy> I'd agree 
<ochosi> i guess the main issue of "should we stick to 700mb images for cds" should be broadly discussed
<ochosi> i had a lengthy discussion with knome about it a few days ago, he seems to like the idea of sticking to cds (not going to repeat his arguments here and now), maybe we should discuss it on the mailinglist
<ochosi> so, pjotr (or elfy), feel free to post to the ML ;)
<elfy> not sure I'm worried enough to do that - takes me a few minutes to do all that with an install :)
<pjotr> First impressions are important....
<ochosi> well my main point about cd size is that we don't have much space to "move" right now
<astraljava> pjotr: Synaptic is going away, AFAIUI. Not sure about gdebi, but possibly.
<pjotr> astraljava: why would Synaptic go? You mean upstream will kill it?
<pjotr> ochosi: I've just sent my wish list to the mailing list.
<astraljava> pjotr: Well I'm not sure, but considering the home page has last been updated in '09, I'd say it's not very strongly alive, either.
<astraljava> But that page is probably not the real one. There's practically nothing of interest in savannah.nongnu.org.
<pjotr> astraljava: this is the ral page, I think: http://packages.qa.debian.org/s/synaptic.html
<pjotr> Thank heaven, it's alive and kicking.... :-)
<astraljava> Yes well, that's the debian package page, not the upstream, unless debian _is_ the upstream.
<knome> afaik, michael vogt (mvo) is the maintainer of synaptic
<knome> or used to be
<knome> or sth.
<knome> GridCube, is the question in #x in the FAQ?
<GridCube> not that i know off, no
<knome> maybe it should
<GridCube> sure, its pretty common
<knome> yeah
<knome> it should cover everything in theming, not just the panel
<knome> ...maybe
<knome> or even the menu layout
<astraljava> knome: In this case, does maintainer != upstream author?
<knome> i don't know
<knome> but aiui, he's the one that has made sure it works
<knome> at least he'd know more of it
<ochosi> pleia2: the messaging menu regression basically comprises that we don't ship it anymore and that ppl who need/want it should stick with 12.04
<knome> saw him at uds and said hi (hanged out with him too in uds-j)
<knome> ochosi, re: drop CD size
<knome> i don't think it's a good idea to switch to DVD/USB just because we want to include X, Y and Z
<GridCube> o/
<ochosi> knome: feel free to post that to the thread on the ML
<ochosi> but i never said that
<ochosi> in fact i tried to explicitely disconnect those two discussions
<GridCube> can i argue back the reasoning i gave to dropping the alternate iso'sÂ¡
<GridCube> s/Â¡/?/
<knome> we should first think if those really fit the xubuntu "core"; then we're looking at the actual list of things we want to include, and also know the approximate image space that would eay
<knome> eat
<knome> ochosi, yeah. just saying :)
<knome> ochosi, i just had a really clear moment and i realized that it's too easy to say "we want X, Y and Z, why don't we add Y2 and Z2 too because they'll fit" and then realize what we really wanted was Y only...
<bluesabre_> Y2 and Z2 is a linux mint thing
<bluesabre_> 3 media player
<bluesabre_> >.<
<knome> hah
<bluesabre_> actually, I think they have 4
<GridCube> the reasoning after cd size, the strongest one, is, it wont fit on older machines with just a cd-rom reader, and my question is, do we orientate our product to that market? if yes then why we dropped alternate?  I dont think we market to older machines anymore, we shouldnt be constricted by their need, if you need a smaller disk, use the mini
<knome> i was just referring to things that aren't X, Y or Z, but i ran out of letters
<knome> even when no access to dvd media wasn't a problem, less to download is still less to download...
<knome> and less to maintain
<knome> and less to worry about
<knome> and less to document
<knome> ...you get the idea
<GridCube> i do
<bluesabre_> but more annoyance (and then download) for users that are missing some core apps they may have previously depended on
<bluesabre_> When ubuntu dropped cd size, they didn't add anything, they kept their standard package set.
<bluesabre_> the problem is that everything is getting bigger
<knome> bluesabre_, sure.
<bluesabre_> bigger kernel, bigger (more) translations, newer toolkits (not mixing with xfce's older toolkits)
<bluesabre_> I wonder if it will be possible to maintain CD size until the next LTS.
<ochosi> +1
<knome> anyway, bbl
<bluesabre_> yeah
<knome> please share thoughts on the ML
<bluesabre_> have fun knome!
<knome> i'll chime in when i get to my desktop
<GridCube> does openoffice needs java?, its java inculded on the standard iso?
<GridCube> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/general-faq/does-libreoffice-require-java/
<GridCube> so, if libreoffice its added to the iso we need to have java for it
<ochosi> yeah, there are tons of arguments against libreoffice by default
<pleia2> ochosi: thanks, do we want to explain why we don't have it anymore? (don't feel like it? :) not working great with 4.10?)
 * micahg will have to review those threads next week
<Unit193> Dumb thought, but has anyone talked to the release team about using xz for ISO compression?  Cuts down quite a bit on the size front.
<knome> Unit193, could you?
<Unit193> Crap.
<knome> thanks.
<Unit193> Awwh, I asked just at the wrong moment here.  XZ doesn't permit the images to rsync right now.
<pleia2> so, we got a couple responses to our FAQ thread, knome anything to add? I don't actually know the answer to the "open stuff on certain desktop" question, or if the one suggested it what we should recommend
<knome> pleia2, "how do i get the defaults back"
<pleia2> stop adding more questions!
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> you can only add it if you have an answer
<knome> lol
<knome> pleia2, maybe we can write an article about that then.
<knome> pleia2, it should cover many things anyway, like the panels, the menu layout, all configuration and probably talk about backuping too
<pleia2> what, offering suggestions without volunteering to do any work?
<pleia2> :D
<pleia2> ok
<knome> yes. problem?
<knome> ;)
<knome> well, i can probably look into the article later this year
<knome> or next month
<pleia2> or in 2013
<knome> which ever sounds less procrastinating for you :P
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> "after the holidays" is a popular one right now
<knome> that's a bad one. technically, i don't have one..
<pleia2> you have a new year!
<knome> ..yes, but if clients need, i should be working then!
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-30
<Unit193> knome: Two merge proposals for xubuntu-docs, not both from me.  Is there someone that needs to be poked? :P
<Unit193> knome: Actually, a few more changes would have to be made in order to use correct relative links.
<knome> Unit193, cheers
<Unit193> Would you like the second?
<knome> haven't looked at them
<knome> :P
<Unit193> Well, second thought, relative links rather than file:///usr/bleh/boogle/xubuntu-docs/desktop-guide/
<knome> well yeah
<knome> i don't know
<knome> we need to look if that's ok :)
<knome> actually
<knome> most of the links are created by docbook
<knome> so we don't need to worry about those
<knome> there's only a few spots where we need to write the links ourself
<Unit193> Talking about the one in about/xubuntu-index.html
<knome> i don't think i mind it being either way, but we might restructure the files, so wouldn't worry too much about that now
<astraljava> Unit193: Reading the backlog, yeah I seem to remember xz being a topic on -devel at least on two separate occasions, but I lack the recollection of the outcome.
<Unit193> It's a no go if you want to rsync, and even if you don't, you still may not get it.
<koen_> is it appropriate to ask questions in here?
<micahg> if they're specific to xubuntu development, sure
<koen_> it isn't, but i have a short one: does polkit prevent opening a serial line (ttyS0), even when the user is part of the groups 'dialout', 'adm' and 'sudo'?
<knome> if it isn't, then it's not appropriate even if it's a short one...
<koen_> apologies, but i have difficulties finding someone to answer that question. never mind...
<knome> maybe find a polkit expert
<micahg> try #ubuntu maybe?
<koen_> micahg: i tried other channels. polkit documentation is outdated, devel mailing list stopped in june; google doesn't find anything related... ah wel..
<koen_> and nothing in any logs. so i'm supposed to use a kernel debugger to find out why a modern linux can't open a serial line?
<knome> this is not the right place to whine about it
<koen_> soit, i'm off...
<adnan> rude knome tsk tsk tsk :P
<adnan> :-)
<micahg> he was just finnishing him :)
<pleia2> lol
<drc> oh snap :)
 * micahg hugs knome
<knome> micahg, i see what you did there with the pun...
 * knome hugs micahg back
<adnan> oh i see the pun too
<drc> It took me 3 looks, I missed the first, couldn't believe the second :)
<adnan> i feel sorry for the guy man
<adnan> :(
<micahg> yeah, but no one in here can help
<drc> But he was told, right up front.
<knome> he was crossposting, then he asked if it's ok to ask, then we told "if it has to do with x devel", it didn't but he asked anyway, etc...
<adnan> I'm just too sensitive I guess :'(
<adnan> off to make myself a dinner
<knome> bon appetit
<adnan> ty
<micahg> ftr, I'm sure finnish people are very nice as knome is in person :)
<knome> micahg, i
<knome> eugh
<knome> i'm not so convinced about finnish people being nice, but thanks ;)
<astraljava> micahg: I'm not sure I follow. Finns, knome, nice?! Does not compute.
<adnan> #xubuntu-offtopic !
<pleia2> good answer for #3? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-November/008540.html
<pleia2> (is this just a case of people accidentally deleting it?)
<pleia2> and is this really the easiest? or should we just drop this question? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-November/008548.html
<drc> pleia2: I would add: Use Panel>Panel Prefs>Items to move it to a location of your preferences.  Many people expect to see it in the default location, and adding it will put it on the far left, iirc.
<drc> er...far RIGHT :(
<pleia2> drc: for which?
<drc> Number 3
<pleia2> oh, I see
<drc> If they delete it and don't know how to getit back, they probably don't know who to move it to where they expect it.
<drc> s/who/how
<pleia2> looks like #8 isn't so easy, there are some scripts and tools to do it, but meh
<pleia2> knome: can you take a peek at the FAQ now? I think they're ready
<knome> pleia2, start 2A: "Due to constraints unavoidable by the Xubuntu team, ..." or sth similar?
<pleia2> yeah, no one gave me a reason so I don't know why ;)
<pleia2> ok, fixed up
<knome> pleia2, indicator wrapper is gtk3, messaging indicator is not
<pleia2> ah
<pleia2> that won't do
<knome> would you release the edit lock?
<knome> i'll do some slight fixes for the layout
<micahg> knome: other way
<pleia2> yeah, closed the window
<knome> micahg, oh, right. whatever O:)
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/?p=1514&preview=true ?
<pleia2> looks good
<knome> shall i publish?
<pleia2> yes please
<knome> done
<knome> hmm..
<knome> oh right, cache
<knome> tweeted
<knome> lol
<knome> so did somebody else
<pleia2> not me
<knome> hmm, weird
<knome> i removed the tweet
<knome> both disappeared
<knome> o.O
<knome> twitter fail i suppose
<knome> thanks pleia2 for the work
<drc> one question: should the answers be seperated from the question (right now I see the question ans the start of the answer on the same line.
<pleia2> which question and what browser?
<knome> you mean should the answers be intended?
<knome> err
<knome> indented
<drc> Maybe I'm looking at the old FAQ?  And yes, indented, seperate line, something to distinguish the question from the answer. 
<drc> hmm...bet I'm looking at an old FAQ :(
<knome> none of the faqs have indented answers
<adnan> looks okay to me the way it is right now
<adnan> larger text makes it easier to distinguish questions from answers imho
<drc> OK, I'll shut up...Obviously I looking at an old URL.
<pleia2> drc: http://xubuntu.org/news/faq-1210-quantal-quetzal/
<drc> Yup, I was looking at  http://xubuntu.org/news/category/faq/
 * drc shuffles back to the dungeion.
<adnan> xD
<knome> drc, that's the FAQ *category*
<drc> yeah, I know...now
<knome> :)
<drc> Like I said, 1) shut up, 2) dungeon, 3) check the links :(
<adnan> wasn't it at least a bit strange, why the "questions" didn't have question marks in them?
<adnan> and why did they have FAQ in them xD
<adnan> just kidding <3 you :)
<bluesabre_> pleia2, knome: for #7, why don't we have them go to Settings Manager > Software Sources?
<pleia2> bluesabre_: I suspect people are more familiar with the software center, so it's familiar
<pleia2> (and that's how the Ubuntu instructions do it)
<bluesabre_> ah, ok
<bluesabre_> that's cool then :)
<astraljava> _Are_ people actually familiar with it? All I hear is whining about why Synaptic isn't there, why SC is so slow etc. ad nauseum.
<adnan> i saw software center first time in my life when I installed 12.04
<adnan> and I always use apt from terminal so I wouldn't know
<pleia2> astraljava: I don't think you talk to normal people much :)
<astraljava> I rest my case.
<pleia2> we're not exactly the target audience ;)
<astraljava> 'Twas heavy.
<genii-around> Heh
<adnan> astraljava, indeed, all these package names make people confused
<pleia2> it's the default software thingy in Xubuntu, plenty of people use defaults and are used it it because they know it from Ubuntu, I really don't think the thousands of people doing this are *actually* complaining about synaptic, just a select few
<adnan> I've had people at my uni mock me because I use terminal to shutdown my laptop lol
<adnan> less to say they're third year of computer science and still do not know what does word "thread" mean for example
<adnan> but yeah
<astraljava> Terminal just makes so much more sense. Except on Macs.
<adnan> ey, btw, is hibernate feature getting fixed anytime soon
<adnan> yeah astraljava 
<adnan> happens that you need to run xfce4-power-manager as root to be able to hibernate it
<astraljava> I lost touch on that, when I lost access to a "normal" laptop.
<adnan> what kind of laptop do you have
<astraljava> MacBook Pro, from work.
<adnan> ah 
<adnan> guessing you're not allowed to install other os-es on it?
<GridCube> i very rarely use the usc, but given the influx of gaming and stuff, i think it pressence its mandatory
<Unit193> Sleep fails on mine, which is really annoying...
<astraljava> adnan: I might be, but it might be pushing it, cause we're generally supposed to test new versions of our products on the latest OS X. And I'm still running Lion...
<astraljava> But *psssst* don't tell anyone.
<adnan> Unit193, does it give some kind of error or?
<adnan> s/error/error message
<adnan> haha
<Unit193> adnan: Nope, just the monitor doesn't come back, restarting lightdm doesn't help. :P
<adnan> yeah
<adnan> had the similar issue long time ago
<adnan> and I had to install some 3rd party suspend software
<adnan> that actually made it work
<astraljava> Unit193: That's because it doesn't wanna sleep in Ohio.
<adnan> haha
<Unit193> astraljava: Goes down fine. ;)
<astraljava> Oh ok, then it doesn't wanna come back out of unconsciousness.
<adnan> Unit193, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelSuspendHibernateResume#Dead.2C_Blank.2C_or_Black_Screen_on_Resume
<adnan> try that
<adnan> might help ya
<Unit193> Sure, will try that tonight.  Used to work is the bummer.
<adnan> :-)
<adnan> hopefully it helps
<adnan> any chance of having restart later button on software updater
<adnan> http://screencloud.net/v/t3tM
<GridCube> knome, evancarroll found a quick workaround to restore default panels without need to relogin and without changing anything else:  killall xfce4-panel; killall xfconfd; rm -rf ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml; xfce4-panel;
<knome> aha
<GridCube> pleia2, ^ that could go to the faq
<pleia2> we already published the faq!
<GridCube> o:
<pleia2> I've been begging people for weeks to help me :P
<GridCube> we did?
<GridCube> oh :D well
<ochosi> adnan: report a bug in launchpad about it, that's something we don't influence at all, it's from ubuntu
<adnan> mhm
<ochosi> but i agree that only having that one option sucks quite a bit
#xubuntu-devel 2012-12-01
<pleia2> http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-quetzal.html
<pleia2> 15:00 is much more difficult in the winter (7AM, that's not even a time!)
<pleia2> but it should always be before work, a good thing given my future work uncertain status, so that'll do :)
<knome> lol
<knome> i'm okay to postpone that time
<pleia2> it's fine
<knome> ok
<knome> maybe reply to the ML if you didn't yet
<pleia2> 17:00 is the weekly-ish CC meeting
<pleia2> yeah, I did
<knome> just to get it logged there
<knome> thanks
<Unit193> I'll read scrollback, as ever.
<adnan> what do you guys think of including some webcam snapshot application in 13.04, something like cheese?
<adnan> now I don't know how many dependencies does cheese have and are they heavy (being developed primarily for gnome), but what are your thoughts on having similar app shipped by default
#xubuntu-devel 2012-12-02
<astraljava> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1404218/
<astraljava> Don't like it.
<astraljava> Especially the line 15: Depends: gnome-video-effects
<ochosi> yeah, actually we've discussed cheese (et al) a few times already
<astraljava> But, that's quantal, haven't upgraded to raring, yet.
<ochosi> as long as we don't bump the iso-size, there's no need to bring this up again
<ochosi> (and even then: it's not like we can/want conditionally install cheese if we detect it's a laptop)
<ochosi> adnan: this was kinda in your direction and since you weren't here... http://dpaste.com/840086/
<adnan> mhm acknowledged :-)
<ScottL> knome: ping
<knome> ScottL, hey
<ScottL> hi knome. sorry to bother you. zequence and i where wondering about how difficult it would be to add the news to the ubuntu studio landing page, but it looks like he already is working on it
<knome> ScottL, right. no problem. if you need help, just ping me again :)
<ScottL> hehe, he broke it :P
<knome> awwh
<knome> should i look at it?
<ScottL> he got it back :)
<knome> heh, ok
<knome> that's *very* live reporting
<ScottL> hehe, he's fixing it now :P
<ScottL> knome: i almost asked you how your thanksgiving was. i knew americans are ego-centric, but i thought i was slightly better
<knome> ScottL, heh :)
<knome> ScottL, is life any less busy now?
<ScottL> it certainly is getting there, my friend :)
<ScottL> i'm very happy to report that
<knome> that sounds great
<ScottL> i'm rather relieved, actually
<knome> i'm sure
<knome> being constantly overloaded isn't great for anybody
<ScottL> with the integration of two companies (and specifically two engineering groups) there was obviously duplication of effort, but some was stupid because it actually caused more difficulty
<knome> or even temporarily, if it goes on too long
<knome> i remember you talking about that
<knome> have you been able to delegate some of the work loaded for you off then?
<ScottL> e.g. scheduling, because now not only did i have to schedule _my_ office, then i had to coordinate with our requirements of a different office
<knome> ughh
<knome> scheduling a one-man-office with clients is hard enough :D
<ScottL> hehe
<ScottL> i felt nervous about pushing the responsibility for most of the scheduling onto the other office, but it made certain tactical sense, plus it freed me up to work on those things that are in my review from last year :D
<knome> yeah...
<knome> even my strategy (with the one-man-company!) is to delegate as much as i can
<ScottL> hah!
<knome> in other words, make the clients do whatever they can
<knome> ...or invoice more
<ScottL> but my plan is to selectively delegate some responsibility and start doing the things that i _want_ to do (plus need to) BUT also start pushing my resume out after the first of the year
<knome> hmmm
<knome> i threw an onion slice on the touchpad and it changed the window
<knome> (not intentionally!)
<bluesabre> sounds like a bug in gsynaptics
<bluesabre> ;)
 * bluesabre hides
<knome> lol
<bluesabre> well, I expect to see the ML light up with excitement about synaptic now... http://www.webupd8.org/2012/12/how-to-install-synaptic-with-gtk3.html
<adnan> knome, you should report bug to onion developers, slices shouldn't change the window
<adnan> that's not the natural behaviour
<knome> xP
 * adnan hides
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-25
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=8733#comment-12504
<pleia2> ^^ andrewsomething willing to help with sponsoring stuff in Debian
<Unit193> Ah, speaking about mugshot by name.
<bluesabre> Guess I better start being productive again
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Just got my new laptop
<Unit193> Likely since you have a sponsor now.  Oh?  So does it work as well with Xubuntu as they said?
<bluesabre> Time to start a series "Adventures in Installing Ubuntu on a Windows 8 computer"
<Unit193> Hah, UEFI, have fun!
<bluesabre> Haven't found out yet
<bluesabre> Windows finally finished setting itself up just now
<bluesabre> figured I'd update all that stuff first and move on to the more fun stuff after
<Noskcaj> pleia2, Would you be able to point andrew to catfish (in the PAPT) and gthumb?
<pleia2> Noskcaj: are the RFS or..?
<Noskcaj> no official rfs, one is in the PAPT with and IRC topic RFS, the other is on mentors
<Noskcaj> PAPT= Python Apps Packaging Team
<pleia2> ok, thanks
<pleia2> I know :)
<Noskcaj> just checking
<pleia2> https://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/python-apps-team/2013-November/008393.html ?
<pleia2> I'll fwd along and Cc: you
<Noskcaj> thanks
<pleia2> Noskcaj: did you create a .deb, or just what is in svn?
<pleia2> re: catfish
<Noskcaj> Just what's in the SVN, but i can make a .deb if you want
<Noskcaj> (it builds fine)
<pleia2> ok, I'll ask andrew what he wants
<Noskcaj> :)
<pleia2> I think you may need to remove the Uploader field in gthumb (pretty sure if that's used the sponsor puts their info there) and it looks like gthumb itself is depending on something in experimental?
<pleia2> anyway, off this email goes
<Noskcaj> I'll check gthumb now
<Noskcaj> gthumb has no uploader field. Catfish does so bluesabre can upload too.
<Noskcaj> what's in experimental that it b-deps on?
<pleia2> Noskcaj: I was just looking at http://mentors.debian.net/package/gthumb
<pleia2> under QA information
<pleia2> "Maintainer" email is the same as the uploader
<Noskcaj> the uploader as in who put it on mentors
<pleia2> oh :)
<pleia2> this site has changed a lot since I last looked at it, I should look at it more
<Noskcaj> My main issue with gthumb is dpackage-buildflags break it. Although it's not my only package that does that
<Noskcaj> hey elfy 
<elfy> hi Noskcaj 
<Noskcaj> Does anyone know why autopilot cannot introspect xfce? running "autopilot launch PACKAGE" is proof
<elfy> ask lderan :)
<Noskcaj> elfy, I did, he has the same problem AFAIK
<elfy> autopilot is designed for ubuntu and it's things - no real wonder we have problems
<Noskcaj> pretty much my thoughts. I'm also working on transmission, which works, but i don't know how to do half the stuff
<elfy> we need to have the discussion about what we need to be trying to get working with it 
<elfy> I'll get that ball rolling soon, but I'm rather meh about the whole thing
<Noskcaj> transmission is good because it's not just xubuntu. My xfce target was screenshooter since it's fairly easy (when autopilot works with xfce)
<elfy> yep
<elfy> obviously if 'we' have anyone working on autopilot then logically they'd be better working on specific xub things rather than ones ubuntu use as well
<elfy> they've got more resources 
<elfy> but on the other hand - it's not a job 
<elfy> personally I've not seen or read or heard anything that changes my mind about it 
<ochosi> ali1234: i think we should get all those greeter changes in one branch
<ochosi> brainwash: ping
<lderan> elfy: aye xubuntu specific things would be best, shall see if i can find out why autopilot doesn't like xfce apps
<slickymaster> morning all
<lderan> good morning slickymaster :D
<slickymaster> hi lderan, how's everything with you?
<lderan> slickymaster: everything is going okay thanks :), how about yourself
<slickymaster> also fine , lderan. Thanks
<lderan> huzzah
<brainwash> ali1234: I've cloned your lightdm branch and applied the xsetroot patch, also compiled your xfwm4 git version.. zooming does work, everything else does not really work: 1) grey background without xfdesktop 2) with xfdesktop the background does not get repainted and will end up grey 3) scrambled screen after unlocking the screen
<brainwash> ali1234: and zooming is not triggered while being on the desktop, it switches the workspaces, so something needs to be done here to make it more consistent 
<brainwash> ochosi: yeah, I'm slacking a bit and will try to test everything now
<brainwash> ochosi: the xsetroot change could be merged into ali1234's lightdm branch, if there is nothing wrong with it
<brainwash> forgot to mention that my screen stays blanked after locking it with light-locker (experimental lightdm branch)
<slickymaster> knome: whenever you'll manage to find the time in your hellish agenda https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/196213
<knome> slickymaster, yeah, i need to get that done... i'll be back later today, if you are around, ping me again
<knome> (going to a concert soon, back after that)
<slickymaster> today it will be difficult. Dinner at in laws 
<knome> heh, np
<knome> i'll try to do it anyway
<slickymaster> I'll ping tomorrow on that
<knome> we're also looking to get access for more people to the core docs (to be able to merge)
<knome> so that should clear that bottleneck
<ochosi> brainwash: well, if it doesn't work, it's not working :)
<slickymaster> it would take some load off your back, at least
<knome> sure, and it doesn't hurt to have >1 person able to do any task, since it happens that people are away when they are needed
<slickymaster> ochosi: just a quick one. I think you're right, regarding the Parole's shortcuts. seek is better than skip
<slickymaster> knome: agreed
<ochosi> slickymaster: ok, sweet, then let's change that and then i'll copy things over to docs.xfce
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'll do it now, and I'll ping once it's done
<elfy> in an ideal world with a team our size we should have 3 people able to do things imo
<ochosi> slickymaster: thanks!
<slickymaster> delegation is many times a key process in organizations
<slickymaster> task delegation ^^
<knome> elfy, in an ideal world our team size should be bigger;)
<knome> not necessarily much, but it wouldn't hurt to have more active contributors
<elfy> well yea - but it isn't so we should be able to multitask 
<elfy> agreed
<knome> active in the sense that they are more or less self-guided in starting new tasks
<knome> having clear routes (incl. -qa team) to more active contributing (-team membership) is a good thing as well
<knome> anyway, i'm off
<knome> talk to you all later
<elfy> cya
<ali1234> ochosi: my branch already has all the needed changes
<ochosi> ali1234: hm, do you see any benefit in bluesabre's gtk_image branch anymore?
<ali1234> not really
<lderan> knome: cheerio
<ochosi> ali1234: ok, i'll try to test it today
<ochosi> what do you think wrt nick's reply on the xfce-dev ml?
<slickymaster>  ochosi, http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts It's done all the occurrences of skip were replaced by seek. You can now copy it to docs.xfce.org 
<ochosi> slickymaster: thanks! will do
<ali1234> brainwash: you don't need to apply any patch on lightdm
<ochosi> ali1234: ok, just applied the patch you linked to on the xfce-dev ml for xfwm4 and used your greeter-branch, but that didn't do the trick yet
<slickymaster> ochosi: np
<ali1234> ochosi: you don't need to apply any patch :/
<ochosi> ali1234: i thought for xfwm4 i do..?
<ali1234> also you can't "make install" lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ali1234> i will write instructions on how to test it
<ali1234> wait........
<ochosi> ok, great
<ochosi> slickymaster: perfect, done!
<slickymaster> ochosi: thanks
<ochosi> well, thank you again ;)
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6474531/
<ochosi> ali1234: hm, what's the difference between the first half and installing the greeter?
<ochosi> ali1234: also, i've just used the last commit of the zoom2 branch on xfwm4 from upstream, so that should be the same as your branch (minus the zooming)
<ali1234> if you install the greeter with make install it goes into /usr/local
<ochosi> yeah, but i used "--prefix=/usr"
<ali1234> lightdm won't use it's .desktop, it will continue using the old one from /usr/share
<ali1234> so it won't launch the new greeter you just built
<ochosi> well with the prefix it does
<ali1234> if uyou build with --prefix=/usr then it will attempt to load configuration from /usr/etc/lightdm and that will also mess it up
<ochosi> i know cause i don't have my greeter.conf file anymore and the ambiance theme now :)
<ochosi> hm
<ali1234> actually, you should build it with --prefix=/
<ochosi> hm
<ochosi> strange, it always seemed to work fine here this way
<ochosi> but anyway, i can try it your way, there's not really any problem with that
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6474559/
<ochosi> ok, rebuilding the greeter now then
<ochosi> rebooting...
<ochosi> ali1234: what xfdesktop version were/are you using?
<ochosi> (asking cause it's not working yet, i still get a grey pixmap)
<ali1234> the one from the repositories
<ochosi> hm, i'm using the one from the xfce4.12 PPA
<ochosi> which is xfdesktop4.11.1
<ochosi> although that should have no effect on the grey background that xfwm4 produces
<ochosi> at least that one should be gone
<ali1234> the grey background happens because xfdesktop has not yet started
<ochosi> i thought xfwm4 would hold the background "in the meantime"?
<ali1234> it's supposed to
<ochosi> :/
<ali1234> to be honest, i think you're doing it wrong
<ochosi> well this time i followed your instructions
<ali1234> make sure you check out the correct branch
<ochosi> yeah, zoom2 branch
<ali1234> and make sure you actually do reboot the computer because just logging out may not restart the greeter
<ochosi> (i can zoom with xfwm4 now, so it's the right branch)
<ochosi> yeah, rebooted
<ochosi> even turned off auto-login ;)
<ochosi> i mean i agree, usually the user is at fault, but i'm not sure where the mistake could be
<ali1234> check the source code
<ali1234> what revision of lightdm-gtk-greeter are you using?
<ali1234> and what commit hash on xfwm4?
<ochosi> git branch > * zoom2
<ochosi> git pull
<ochosi> Already up-to-date.
<ochosi> bzr pull
<ochosi> Using saved parent location: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/lightdm-gtk-greeter/experimental/
<ochosi> No revisions or tags to pull.
<ali1234> so what revision is on top of your local tree?
<ochosi> fwiw, with your method of launching the greeter my original greeter.conf seems to be used again
<ali1234> yeah thats the idea
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> for the greeter: revno: 151
<ochosi> timestamp: Sat 2013-11-23 22:29:32 +0000 (Fix the rest of the pixmap leaks.)
<ochosi> for xfwm4 it's commit b7baa7aa60cdb80759e0872d0ab5a7cb59ec5c10
<ochosi> ali1234: ^
<ochosi> gotta go now, but i'll be back in an hour or so
<ali1234> ok the reason it doesn't work is because the zoom2 branch doesn't build
<ali1234> and apparently neither of you noticed this before running "sudo make install"
<ali1234> so i must have forgot to commit a file or something
<ali1234> hmm
<slickymaster> cya
<ali1234> ok something is very broken here
<ali1234> HAVE_RANDR has different values in different parts of the code
<ali1234> i see... xfwm4 has a missing build-dep on libdrm-dev
<ali1234> right, the new xfdesktop also throws up a grey pixmap for no reason
<ochosi> ali1234: :/
<ochosi> so we also need an xfdesktop patch?
<ali1234> well the xfdesktop code is crap
<ali1234> it needed fixing anyway
<ali1234> it's not really any better or worse now
<ali1234> it's just broken in a different way
<ali1234> if you build against tag xfdesktop-4.10.1 then it works, btw
<ali1234> now bisecting to figure out exactly what the problem is
<ochosi> xfdesktop is one of the more ancient parts of xfce
<ochosi> wasn't properly maintained for years, iirc
<ochosi> and eric did some cleanup, but not a rewrite or anything
<ali1234> yeah, it looks like someone decided to "tody it all up"
<ochosi> thing is, nobody cares enough about the desktop
<ochosi> and it might become an extension of thunar in gtk3
<ali1234> whatevs
<ali1234> what are we gonna do about the gnome CSD?
<ochosi> not sure, what can we?
<ochosi> i haven't seen a CSD app in xfce so far
<ali1234> https://plus.google.com/106778988568562417860/posts/TFYPgcfmj9N
<ali1234> calculator, unfortunately
<ali1234> if it was up to me i'd say "drop it, find a new calculator"
<ochosi> meh
<ochosi> yeah, the calculator should be replaceable
<ochosi> but in general, that blows
<ali1234> well, actually, i'd say "patch gnome calculator to drop CSD and let gnome deal with it"
<ochosi> the apps should send a request for an undecorated window
<ochosi> that's possible, xfce4-notes does that
<ali1234> no, the app shouldn't have CSD
<ochosi> but in general i agree, a runtime check would be best...
<ochosi> anyway, it looks ridiculous
<ochosi> with two decorations and a meaningless appmenu
<ali1234> actually, we could switch to mate's calculator
<ochosi> is it in the repos yet?
<ochosi> it's a bit like forking the current calculator without having to maintain it :)
<ali1234> i guess not
<ochosi> anyway, thanks for the hint to that g+ post
<ochosi> dinner-time, bbabl
<ali1234> 9becad1569798894bdae9beaffc9076338fed299 is the commit that causes the grey screen from xfdesktop
<ali1234> i love the commit message on that
<pleia2> Noskcaj: can you follow up with http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=711827 ?
<ubottu> Debian bug 711827 in wnpp "RFA: gthumb -- image viewer and browser" [Normal,Open]
<Noskcaj> pleia2, did that last week
<pleia2> Noskcaj: might want to update the bug :) andrew is still under the impression that it's pending
<Noskcaj> done
<ali1234> ochosi: so... the white flicker now comes from xfdesktop and is completely unrelated to the one i've just fixed
<ali1234> in fact you'd see grey, then white without my patches
<knome> lderan, wha? :)
<lderan> knome, hmm? to your wha?
<lderan> :P
<lderan> knome, ah it was just a cheerio when you said you're off
<ali1234> :(
<ali1234> D:
<ali1234> this code is horrible
<pleia2> quit looking at my github repo
<brainwash> ali1234: new round of compiling and testing, now only xfdesktop shows a white screen for a brief moment
<ali1234> yeah i'm tryig to fix it
<brainwash> screen is still scrambled after unlocking via light-locker
<ali1234> what has happened is that now xfdesktop supports a background per workspace
<ali1234> so they made it load the background async
<ali1234> so it doesn't get loaded when the window first opens
<ali1234> g_signals everywhere... impossible to figure out what order any of this code runs in
<brainwash> first a grey screen flicker, now a white one :D
<brainwash> but what about the scrambled screen?
<brainwash> it wasn't there before, started to show with your experimental lightdm greeter branch
<ali1234> quite possibly
<brainwash> amd restricted driver
<ali1234> the code is all leaky as hell
<ali1234> i removed the leaks from lightdm
<ali1234> but there's still the leaks in xfwm and xfdesktop to deal with
<ali1234> i need to deal with xfdesktop first, because it also plays around with the root window atoms, but in a none-standard way (while the comments complain about the lack of a standard)
<brainwash> it started as small screen flicker issue.. now it's a huge code mess up
<ali1234> the two flickers are totally unrelated
<brainwash> yeah
<brainwash> but we don't want to have additional ones
<ali1234> yeah what i mean is one doesn't cause the other
<ali1234> without my patches you see grey then white
<brainwash> I understand this
<ali1234> it's just very hard to notice
<brainwash> can you triage bug 1251431 ?
<ubottu> bug 1251431 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "user background gets painted over background specified in config file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251431
<brainwash> please :P
<ali1234> there you go :)
<brainwash> thanks :)
<ali1234> what do you see if you kill xfdesktop btw?
<brainwash> a white screen, then my user background
<ali1234> what do you see before the white screen?
<brainwash> xfdesktop gets restored by xfce4-session
<ali1234> it should be whatever is in the xfwm4 root tile
<ali1234> this might be your background (you can tell because icons disappear)
<ali1234> or it might be the grey
<Unit193> It's grey, I've done it before.
<ali1234> if you change wallpaper in xfce, the root tile shouldn't update
<ali1234> Unit193: yeah but with my patched stuff?
<Unit193> No, stock.
<ali1234> there are three different things that show the background
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah, i can see the root background
<ochosi> (if i insist on killing xfdesktop enough)
<brainwash> right, it's the user wallpaper
<ali1234> lightdm greeter sets it in  the real X11 root window pixmap, xfwm has it's root tile, and xfdesktop then draws it in a window too
<ochosi> so, your xfwm4 patch works
<ochosi> yeah, ideally there'd be only one or two of those :)
<brainwash> I killed xfdesktop like 3 times within a small time frame and now it does not get restored anymore =S
<ali1234> xfdesktop also copies it to the x11 root window, but at this point you can't see that any more without killing xfwm4
<ali1234> brainwash: 5 times and then it dies
<brainwash> oh
<ali1234> just run it again
<brainwash> yeah, so it's the expected behavior?
<ochosi> 5 is the lucky number :)
<ali1234> yes
<brainwash> ok
<ali1234> ochosi: only lightdm-greeter patch i am totally happy with - all the others still have problems, leaks, and dangling pointers
<ochosi> ali1234: i hope we can merge that part soon
<drc> Five is right out :0
<ochosi> but i'd prefer to wait until the rest of this is kinda settled
<ali1234> i don't know why it causes corruption in light-locker, but it is probably something to do with the memory leaks being fixed
<ochosi> actually this has nothing to do with light-locker, lightdm handles the switch-to-greeter/lock stuff
<ali1234> what actually happens when light-locker starts the greeter in locked mode?
<ochosi> on the light-locker side, it puts a fullscreen window over your session on VT7 and switches to the greeter
<ochosi> the greeter itself is started as always
<ochosi> on VT8
<ali1234> so the locker is then running in a different X server?
<ochosi> you can also try all this without light-locker, just use dm-tool (uses different signals though)
<ochosi> well, yes and no, the *session* is still runnning in a different X server
<ochosi> sry, gotta quickly run, be back in 20min
<ali1234> the session carries on running in vt7
<ochosi> yup
<ali1234> but the "locked" display is on VT8, which is a totally different X server
<ochosi> yup
<ali1234> in that case, i don't see how the corruption can be my fault :)
<ochosi> that's lightdm's design
<ochosi> brb
<ali1234> it has to be a X server bug
<brainwash> dm-tool lock works kinda
<brainwash> desktop is black and can be restored by moving a window
<brainwash> light-locker corrupts the screen
<ali1234> it works on intel and nvidia
<brainwash> ah right
<brainwash> I did not restore xfdesktop
<ali1234> that shouldn't matter
<brainwash> without it I get a black screen after unlocking
<brainwash> and by moving a window I can force it to redraw the background
<ali1234> yeah, there won't be any redraw events on the root tile
<brainwash> sill an issue if some people disable xfdesktop or?
<brainwash> still
<ali1234> kind of, but there's not much can be done about it
<brainwash> force a redraw via light-locker?
<ali1234> yeah, you'd have to. this is a unrelated issue though
<brainwash> as of now light-locker corrupts the screen
<brainwash> :/
<ali1234> which screen?
<ali1234> do you mean the background behind the unlock dialog?
<brainwash> the X display server
<ali1234> there's two X displays involved...
<brainwash> no, after returning back to vt7
<ali1234> ah. ok, that's ... something else
<ali1234> that likely happens because xfdesktop clears out the atoms... really, it would be better if it didn't
<ali1234> or if it has to, then it should do it properly
<brainwash> basically a black screen via some colorful pixels
<ali1234> that might be the vt switch happening
<ali1234> so many bugs
<brainwash> it happens with light-locker, not with dm-tool
<ali1234> well, i don't know what dm-tool does
<brainwash> light-locker creates this overlay to actually lock vt7
<ali1234> yes, but then it switches to vt8
<brainwash> dm-tool --help
<brainwash> right
<brainwash> everything works until I return back to vt7
<ali1234> yeah that doesn't tell me what it actually does...
<ali1234> so what happens if you press ctrl-alt-f1, then alt-f7?
<brainwash> mmh, time to take a look at the source code of lightdm :)
<ali1234> some X servers just display corruption during vt switch
<brainwash> screen is kinda dead
<ali1234> there's nothing we can do about that, if that's what it is
<brainwash> nothing can restore it
<brainwash> yeah, but it does work with dm-tool, so it's a strange issue
<brainwash> light-locker works the same, but it actually locks vt7 with an extra overlay
<brainwash> this overlay might be the cause
<ali1234> so... i've got an idea
<ali1234> i need to fix all this xfdesktop root pixmap rubbish
<brainwash> :(
<brainwash> so much extra work
<ali1234> well i can't leave it unfixed
<ali1234> hmm... another idea... maybe we can set the desktop window hidden until the background loads
<ochosi> you could even let it fade in ;)
<brainwash> I have no clue, this whole thing is getting more complicated the more we.. the more you try to fix it :)
<ali1234> ochosi: but the idea is it's same as what's already there anyway...
<ochosi> ali1234: that's the idea, but only on ubuntu
<ochosi> in no other distro does xfdesktop inform accountsservice of the user's background
<ochosi> so the greeter cannot know about that and will show the same background every time (defined in /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf)
<ali1234> hmm
<ochosi> in fact, accountsservice was patched in ubuntu to support the user-wallpaper
<ali1234> this is lame
<ochosi> that is why it's an ubuntu-specific patch
<ali1234> the background loader is trigger by the window being realized
<ali1234> the window is realized when it becomes visible
<ochosi> so that's too late..?
<ali1234> therefore there is no way to load the background withut making the window visible first
<ali1234> i could force it to be realized with gtk_widget_realize
<ochosi> well if xfdesktop would show the root background first, that would help
<ochosi> even if it only were xfwm4's background
<ali1234> that's exactly the problem
<ali1234> wow, that actually worked
<ochosi> ?
<ali1234> instead of gtk_widget_show(desktop), gtk_widget_realize(desktop)
<ali1234> then later, *after* the background loads, gtk_widget_show(desktop)
<ochosi> right
<ali1234> works perfectly, apparently
<ochosi> sweet
<ochosi> wanna post the patch so i can quickly give it a spin?
<ochosi> (i still have everything else in place, so i'd hope it'd fix everything)
<ali1234> sure... but expect it to be buggy
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6476175/
<ali1234> there is still the issue of the background pixmap usage in xfwm4 and xfdesktop, so you might still get screen corruption
<ali1234> but the login should be seamless
<ali1234> also if you have a solid colour background is might never get shown
<ochosi> wow, quite a minimal patch :)
<ali1234> they always are
<ali1234> when we finally get all this working i bet there's not more than 100 lines of code
<ali1234> across all three things
<ochosi> sounds plausible
 * ochosi reboots
<ochosi> ali1234: much better
<ochosi> although i have to admit that since i used xfdesktop from git, it doesn't have the accountsservice-patch so the transition was still from one wallpaper to the other
<ochosi> (which is why i originally suggested a fade-in to smooth things in this case)
<ali1234> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10513
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10513 in General "desktop flickers white when xfdesktop starts" [Normal,New]
<ochosi> ok, i'll point eric to it in case he doesn't notice it
<ali1234> it doesn't seem to have any bad side effects
<ali1234> solid wallpaper acts a little bit weird, but i don't think it is related
<ochosi> sounds good
<ochosi> so just out of curiousity, the very short and simple fading implementation you were referring to when we talked about the greeter is set_opacity of gtkwindow?
<ali1234> perhaps
<ali1234> i don't want to try implementing anything new until all the bugs are gone
<ochosi> sure, i'm not rushing towards new features atm
<ochosi> just started reading thunar'
<ochosi> s code for fading (uses cairo)
<ali1234> all this stuff uses cairo
<ali1234> mate has fading code too
<ochosi> don't wanna do too much fading anyway, it usually slows things down a little
<ochosi> but a smooth startup would be nice, and fading could help to cover some cracks...
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-26
<ochosi> ali1234: so your xfdesktop patch already got merged, i'm starting to feel more optimistic all of this can be figured out in time
<slickymaster> morning all
<Unit193> Howdy.
<slickymaster> hi Unit193
<slickymaster> elfy: we're still facing https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1250560. I think that the test should really be rewritten. I can do it if you feel that you already have plenty to deal with
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1250560 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Use of gksudo/gksu in testcases for Xubuntu Desktop in Trusty Daily " [Undecided,In progress]
<Unit193> slickymaster: Have you looked at why the one paragraph won't translate by chance? :p
<slickymaster> Unit193: not sure if I understood what you mean. What paragraph and where?
<Unit193> http://sigma.unit193.net/xubuntu/pt/ the only bit there I can read (English), wasn't sure if it was because the pot file has "the the" where it shouldn't or now.
<slickymaster> Unit193: I think that it might be related to the fact that knome hasn't merged https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/196213 yet and probably that's causing the pot file not to be updated
<slickymaster> but I could be wrong
<Unit193> Doesn't really look related.
<slickymaster> Unit193: let me check something
<slickymaster> Unit193: if you go to https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/trusty/+pots/desktop-guide/pt/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=The+complete+set+of+topics+is+listed+below you'll see that the paragraph still contains the duplication of definite article "the" even though the translation doesn't consider it
<slickymaster> Unit193: but there are several items that continue not to be translated in http://sigma.unit193.net/xubuntu/pt/
<Unit193> Ah, I only really noticed that one because it was on the front page and the same across the board.
<slickymaster> Unit193: not sure if it will answer it but as far as I've been able to dig it out, the time stamp on the last Launchpad automatic translations update is from 2013-11-11 05:41:30 UTC
<knome> don't look at me.
<knome> ;)
 * Unit193 glares at knome.
 * slickymaster also
<slickymaster> by the way knome, you ask me to remember you of https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/196213
<slickymaster> elfy: FYI https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1255061
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1255061 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Instruction error in Xfce4 Keyboard Settings in Xubuntu Desktop for Trusty Daily" [Undecided,In progress]
<dreamer> ohai
<ali1234> ochosi: in time for what?
<elfy> slickymaster: if you want to go for it and yes I've seen the new bug :)
<slickymaster> elfy: I'm assuming that when you say that if I want to go for it you're referring to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1250560, so i'll assign myself and later will propose a merge request
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1250560 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Use of gksudo/gksu in testcases for Xubuntu Desktop in Trusty Daily " [Undecided,In progress]
<brainwash> ali1234, ochosi: latest version of xfdesktop enables a smooth and flicker-free transition
<ali1234> yes, my patch was accepted
<brainwash> BUT the gtk theme for the desktop elements does not get applied on first start
<brainwash> after killing xfdesktop is looks ok
<ali1234> hmm
<ali1234> you mean icons?
<ali1234> it works for me...
<brainwash> icon label bakcground, font color and this rectangle to mark icons
<brainwash> locking via lightdm is still broken
<brainwash> screen corruption
<ali1234> i'm going to mak a test program that dumps the atoms and pixmaps
<ali1234> there is really no reason for the screen to be corrupt from these patches
<brainwash> another relog and once again the desktop element are not themed correctly
<brainwash> no hint in the x session log
<brainwash> restarting xfdesktop fixes this, so I'll have to redirect the error output of xfdesktop
<brainwash> http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/onetwo.php
<brainwash> left ok, right bad
<ali1234> that is really strange
<ali1234> and this doesn't happen without the patch?
<brainwash> it happened occasionally before with xfdesktop 4.11
<brainwash> now everytime
<brainwash> well, not really related, I'll file a report and try to get some log information
<ali1234> when all else fails, because the output gets redirected, i just throw in a system("logger foo");
<ochosi> ali1234: in time for 14.04
<ochosi> brainwash: you can try to clear you session cache
<ochosi> settings-manager > sessions and startup >...
<ochosi> .. > session > clear saved sessions
<ochosi> and check whether you have odd stuff in your autostarted apps
<ochosi> brainwash: ^
<brainwash> yeah, session cache is cleared on every reboot/relog on this system
<brainwash> ali1234: so it does work properly if I start xfdesktop manually after login
<brainwash> looks like some sort of race condition then
<brainwash> added a delay before xfdesktop launches -> looks ok
<ali1234> again, there's already loads of delay on xfdesktop...
<brainwash> it's a slow system with a damn slow hdd
<brainwash> and adding this extra delay fixes it for me
<brainwash> now the desktop elements are properly themed every time I login
<brainwash> maybe it's reproducible if you delay the launch of xfwm4
<ali1234> i doubt it
<ali1234> xfdesktop waits for xfwm4 to start
<ali1234> you could try increasing the amount of time it waits (it waits for 5 seconds normally)
<ali1234> on my system it always waits for the full 5 seconds
<brainwash> I've delayed the launch of xfdesktop by 1 sec
<brainwash> 1 sec makes a difference on this system
<ochosi> hm, i gotta test it but it seems like the experimental branch of the greeter really breaks locking/suspend-wakup
<brainwash> yes, it does for me too
<ochosi> as you described it, black/blank screen
<ochosi> i'll try it again a little later and then kill light-locker
<brainwash> no visible pixels?
<ochosi> that should usually unlock the session, if light-locker were the culprit
<ochosi> no
<brainwash> I see a black screen with some pixels
<ochosi> what graphics driver are you using again?
<brainwash> the gpu is kinda dead at this point I assume
<brainwash> amd hd5670, restricted driver
<ochosi> hm, i see
<brainwash> so I am forced to reboot
<ochosi> nah, you can also go to a tty and run "sudo service lightdm restart"
<ochosi> at least i can
<brainwash> does not work
<brainwash> gpu dead/stuck
<ochosi> that's odd
<brainwash> it is
<brainwash> xscreensaver to the rescue! :)
<brainwash> it happens with the experimental branch
<ochosi> the greeter from trunk works for you?
<brainwash> it does
<brainwash> it used too
<ali1234> i thnk this is xfwm4 problem...
<ochosi> bbiab
<brainwash> ali1234: so lightdm screen locking works ok for you?
<elfy> lderan: if you're about later can you ping me :)
<elfy> slickymaster: yep - you got it right :)
<ali1234> brainwash: yes, works fine
<ali1234> nvidia and intel
<ali1234> brainwash: try xfwm4 trunk
<slickymaster> bbl
<ochosi> pleia2: so i assume the guys you contacted about their wallpaper submissions missing a license never got back to you..?
<pleia2> ochosi: nope
<ochosi> hm, right
<knome> drop them
<knome> they can resend if they care enough
<knome> if they don't reply to emails, i suppose they don't care enough though
<ochosi> hm yeah, i was thinking about dropping them as i was cleaning up the submissions page again
<ochosi> but i think if i do that, i'll also put more verbose text on the submissions page about the acceptance procedure and how ppl can know why their stuff was dropped (wiki history)
<knome> ochosi, the next time you move stuff, can you add a <hr> or sth? (----)
<ochosi> knome: you mean for you to know which ones are new?
<knome> yep
<ochosi> sure
<ochosi> i can tell you now if you wan
<ochosi> t
<knome> isn't "water" against the guidelines? (people)
<knome> traslasierra -> are new
<ochosi> traslasierra downwards
<knome> but yeah, would be easier to have a mark so you could batch-move and i wouldn't have to remember :)
<ochosi> we also accepted the walking fisherman
<ochosi> yeah, will do from now on
<ochosi> and the diver
<ochosi> and the "as the two palms watch"
<knome> heh.
<ochosi> i'd say as long as it's only a silhouette it's not as bad
 * elfy lost the link to this wallpaper stuff :|
<ochosi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers/Submissions
<ochosi> elfy: ^
<ochosi> there's also the link to the accepted ones
<elfy> some nice ones there indeed :)
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> it's starting too look good
<knome> oops.
 * elfy likes 'watery' ones ;)
<knome> ok, thumbs (are) up
<ochosi> thanks knome 
<knome> woo
<knome> hmm, inappropriate channel
<ochosi> ali1234: ok, i'll try again with stock xfwm4 and keep the greeter branch first
<ali1234> ochosi: i think the problem is xfwm4 stores a reference to the pixmap. then later on that pixmap just ceases to exist, but xfwm4 is still trying to draw it
<ochosi> hm, is there no else for when the pixmap isn't there anymore?
<ochosi> or an if
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> ali1234: indeed, xfwm4 seems to be the problem...
<ochosi> or at least some of the root-pixmap stuff
<ali1234> there's a couple of solutions: xfwm4 copy the root pixmap instead of referencing it, or fully enable MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP (and then fix the way xfdesktop does it)
<ali1234> i think i prefer the latter, it will create less problems
<ali1234> going to need some extensive reworking though
<ochosi> hmm
<ochosi> well xfdesktop is a patchwork piece of code already anyway
<ali1234> how do i get xfdesktop and xfwm4 to output the tracing logs?
<ochosi> usually by compiling with --enable-debug=full
<ochosi> or that's what i'd assume
<ochosi> i haven't tried it on those two
<ochosi> only xfsettings
<ochosi> hm, this belongs here actually...
<ochosi> ali1234: what do you think about we start up a panel-layout script?
<ali1234> how do you mean?
<ochosi> we could start to draft the panel layouts on a wiki page
<ochosi> e.g. gnome2
<ali1234> heh... i'm not the person to ask for that
<ali1234> unless you want it to be like gnome2
<ochosi> well i can draft them
<ali1234> in which case, yes :)
<ochosi> and then we could write a simplistic script with a UI that lets people select the panel-layouts
<ali1234> could it be done with sessions somehow?
<ali1234> like, we have xfce-session and xubuntu-session now?
<ali1234> what's the difference between them>
<ochosi> it could, but it's a bit overkill, no?
<ochosi> the diff between those is menu-file, autostarted apps and a little more i think
<ali1234> why? we can put a "classic" menu option on the greeter, people can try it without messing up their config...
<ochosi> but i don't know off the top of my head anymore
<ali1234> i dunno
<ali1234> i'm not sure how a script that does it should work
<ali1234> i mean, say you've got the XML files... how do you put them in place? just write over the existing ones and then restart the panel?
<ochosi> basically copy an xml-file to the user's .config directory and restart the panel?
<ali1234> that sounds really hacky to me...
<ochosi> yeah, it's dirty
<ochosi> it's a script
<ali1234> what about adding a "presets"? like, when you press "new panel" in the configuration, it could offer you some preset panels...
<ochosi> that'd be nice
<ochosi> but much more work
<ali1234> also there's the issue of configurating the individual plugins
<ali1234> like if you want a "settings" menu, that's actually a customized main menu, not a separate plugin
<ochosi> well those are in .rc files in the same directory
<ali1234> yeah, what i mean is it would be difficult for the top level panel prefs to deal with that
<ochosi> well you can also do it with launchers theoretically
<ochosi> right
<ali1234> i do think, if we make a tool for this, it should do everything by the xfsettingsd API
<ochosi> yeah, that would be ideal
<ochosi> much better than just copy-pasting
<ali1234> does that have python bindings?
<ochosi> it used to
<ali1234> cos it would be much easier than writing this in C...
<ochosi> i'm not sure they're still up-to-date and working
<ochosi> let me check
<ali1234> (or some other scripting language would do, i guess)
<ochosi> vala? :>
<ochosi> there were perl bindings it seems
<ochosi> last update 2009
<ochosi> hm, maybe this? http://git.xfce.org/bindings/pyxfce/
<ochosi> looks like it supports xfconf
<ali1234> doesn't seem to be packaged
<ochosi> hm
<ochosi> well if they work we could work towards getting them packaged
<ali1234> well... i don't like packaging :P
<ali1234> also, it's another dependency
<ali1234> maybe we don't need bindings... maybe it can be done with gir or dbus or something
<ochosi> you could also write a bash-script :D
<ochosi> and the launcher to the "panel settings app" simply opens a terminal with the script
<ali1234> it needs a UI though...
<ochosi> we could make it look like the good old alternate installer
<Noskcaj> ochosi, I looked into pyxfce a month or two ago, it wouldn't work
<ochosi> hm, would really be nice to have python bindings though
<ochosi> many ppl like it and it's a lot more accessible than c
<Noskcaj> yeah. I'll see if i still have why it didn't work.
<Noskcaj> It's also a dependancy of rabbit-vcs-thunar
<ali1234> to start with we need code to load and save the configuration. that can be a command line app, for testing at least
<ali1234> and we need to figure out the format to store the configuration presets
<ochosi> indeed
<ali1234> i guess we use the same xml format as xfconf
<ali1234> and borrow the loader from it
<ochosi> that makes sense
<ochosi> also because that way the xml files are also easy to generate
<ochosi> but the plugin settings will really add another layer of complexity
<ochosi> i think we'll have to simply copy-paste the .rc files in that case
<ali1234> actually, it's all in one xml file
<ochosi> darn, i should clean up my /home at some point
<ochosi> i've had it for ages, so there's still old panel stuff lying around there...
<ali1234> hmm... xconf can only do new, edit, reset
<ali1234> there's no delete... weird
<ochosi> hm, gotta go, bbabl
<ochosi> then i can start with some panel layouts
<Noskcaj> Is there actually a current version of pyxfce or thunarx-python?
<ali1234> not pyxfce
<Noskcaj> Also, i now have gthumb 3.2.5 on mentors, still needs uploading. https://mentors.debian.net/package/gthumb
<elfy> lderan: ping if you've got time
<lderan> elfy, ping
<elfy> evening :) wanted to know if you'd had time to look at a/pilot at all yet - and if you have - is it actually going to be of any use to us
<elfy> the abiword conversation you were having with dan didn't look hopeful
<lderan> haven't gotten it working with the applications from xfce yet
<lderan> (settings manager, screenshoorter and so on)
<elfy> do you think you will? at least in time for it to have any impact on trusty?
<lderan> can't say for certain but its a possibility, need to do some more digging about to find the root cause.
<elfy> k
<elfy> a while away from a resolution then I guess :)
<lderan> hoping its something tiny
<elfy> :)
<elfy> I'll do a mail to team - asking for what people would like to see on our list to aim for then
<lderan> sounds good to me :)
<elfy> pointless anyone working on screenshooter or transmission or anything if we're not thinking it's worth it for us
<elfy> imo at least
<knome> screenshooter++
<knome> transmission... ok
<elfy> they were just examples that are in my head because I'd just seen them in words :)
<elfy> knome: not an easy way to mail the team then 
<knome> elfy, just send to -devel and include "team" somewhere in the title ;)
<elfy> :)
<lderan> i think screenshooter still has the missing about popup :P 
<Noskcaj> lderan, didn't that get fixed when we added xfhelp back?
<Noskcaj> transmission is in everything, so i'm trying to do it. screenshooter is just because it's small and i could copy/paste a lot of stuff once xfce supports autopilot
<lderan> Noskcaj, will check, more then likely im out of date with it
<elfy> hi Noskcaj 
<Noskcaj> hey elfy 
<elfy> lderan: I've put you on the QA blueprint now as looking at a/p
<lderan> okay :)
 * lderan downloads xfce settings manager source and begins the madness
<elfy> ok - a simple and bare mail gone to list for team 
<elfy> suitably marked as TEAM :)
<Unit193> Noticed another one in the docs: http://paste.openstack.org/show/7VequFfQXDkeEU7T5ntD/
<elfy> knome: when something gets posted on the website blog does it get posted to twitter and facebook page automatically?
<knome> elfy, nope
<elfy> ok 
<knome> elfy, that's handled by me and pleia2 currently
<elfy> ok - thanks
<Unit193> knome: Mind merging that in?
<knome> Unit193, there isn't a merge proposal
<knome> :)
<Unit193> Sure there is!  I propose you merge it. ;)
<knome> lol
<knome> i'll have a look at that later if i remember
<Unit193> Does bzr add then commit later not add all files?  I know with git you'd have to use commit -a for that, but not sure with bzr (I can't merge all changes.)
<lderan> it should do
<knome> Unit193, or git add . :)
<lderan> yay for git add .
<knome> though i think my git said that's becoming the new default way to do things
<knome> or then it was bzr
<knome> but it was related either to that or delling
<Unit193> Crap, no it doesn't.
<Unit193> Dangit, bzr, do what I say not what you think I want.
<lderan> its growing sentient :O
<elfy> good lord
<elfy> can someone give some sentience to launchpad then please 
<Unit193> Or let us use git on it. :D
<Unit193> knome: I'm proposing one now, you have to exclude all files you don't want committed with -x. -_-
<knome> whaa
<knome> :P
<knome> oh, right, yeah
<knome> true
<Unit193> OK, should be about done, then.  http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/234/137/5c4.jpg
<knome> heh
<Unit193> OK, now bzr is trying to create a keyring, what the heck?
<knome> haha :)
<Unit193> "Please set a password for your new keyring:"  What new keyring?!
<knome> :]
<elfy> Message sent to Xubuntu Testers
<elfy> let's see what that brings :p
<elfy> and hope it's not a stampede of people leaving the team ... 
 * Unit193 quits
<knome> Unit193, please do, and join -qa ;)
<Unit193> knome: I don't test enough. ;)
<Unit193> And, I think it's proposed.
<knome> pyh
<Unit193> (https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/xubuntu-docs/fixes/+merge/196787)
<knome> ta ta
<knome> that shows now up in the xubuntu-docs branch so i'll find it
<Unit193> Yes, adios.
<pleia2> elfy: facebook is automatic (it pulls from the RSS feed)
<elfy> pleia2: ok - thanks :)
<pleia2> I can also post links and stuff too
<elfy> yep 
<pleia2> now we see if this email causes mass attrition from the team from badge hunters :)
<elfy> pleia2: this actually talking to a wider audience is all new as you know
<elfy> pleia2: yea :)
<knome> pleia2, ha ha, so witty
<elfy> one might not - but after a few it might :)
<knome> :P
<knome> a few pints?
<elfy> :)
<elfy> knome: so what would be the studio list to send an ask to ?
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<elfy> thanks
<elfy> I'll write something to send them re autopilot as well 
<elfy> I'll say goodnight now though
<ali1234> haha... i know exactly what is happening
<ali1234> xfdesktop starts, replaces the root pixmap. xfwm4 sees this, takes a reference. next time xfdesktop updates the root pixmap it sends an event. xfwm4 sees this and frees the root pixmap it had a reference to... but that's the same root pixmap
<ali1234> so now xfwm4 and xfdesktop both have an invalid reference to an already freed pixmap
<ali1234> something is really badly messed up here... the ID is corrupt when it reached xfwm4, but only when set by xfdesktop, not by others
<ali1234> wait... that's not it at all
<ali1234> i see what's really happening
<ali1234> xfwm4 uses the existing pixmap to render all it's compositing stuff into
<ali1234> but xfdesktop is also trying to draw into that pixmap too
<ali1234> xfdesktop creates a new one for this purpose
<ali1234> xfwm4 initially takes the one made by lightdm which is no longer in user
<ali1234> -r
<ali1234> but when it get the xfdesktop one... xfdesktop continues drawing into it, and then xfwm4 starts trying to draw into it *at the same time*
<ali1234> this is why only the second part of the MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP stuff causes crashes
<ali1234> infact this code inside MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP is extremely dangerous because it assumes it can take ownership of any pixmap it finds
<ali1234> to be safe, it must take a copy of the pixmap in a new buffer
<ali1234> hmm... this is good... in fact, i can fix this quite easily, and make the code better at the same time :)
<knome> cool
<brainwash> ali1234: wall of text :)
<brainwash> so much going on in the background
<brainwash> but what it actually explain? which crash?
<ali1234> brainwash: all of them, everything you reported :)
<ali1234> well, except the gtk theme stuff
<ali1234> it's actually not a drawing conflict
<ali1234> what is happening is xfwm4 finds the pixmap and then tells the xserver to turn it into a XRender picture
<ali1234> i assume this means "upload it to GPU memory" effectively
<ali1234> at this point, it's not a normal pixmap any more, so xfdesktop can't draw into it, and when it tries, bad things happen
<ali1234> anyway the fix is simply to dupe the image
<ali1234> the good thing about this is it will only happen once on startup, and only if the greeter left an image there for us
<brainwash> ok.. but everything works with your patches as of now, doesn't it?
<ali1234> but, the monitor code can then be safely enabled too, if anyone wants to
<ali1234> no, far from it...
<brainwash> visually it does :D
<brainwash> well, not counting the theme issue and the screen corruption
<ali1234> the screen corruption is the problem
<ali1234> that i'm fixing
<brainwash> that's a critical one
<brainwash> for me at least
<brainwash> because it forces me to reboot
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-27
<ali1234> well, it doesn't crash or corrupt any more, so that's something
<ali1234> in fact i think it's working perfectly :)
<ali1234> or not... it's not copying the pixmap
<Unit193> jjfrv8: Welcome back.
<jjfrv8> I was working on my desktop and knocked the cable out of my pi :)
<ToeTag> Hey, is anyone around that I can ask about the wallpaper submission requests?
<ToeTag> I want to make sure that I'm reading a requirement right "No branding assest like "Xubuntu logo" or text to permit use by derivative distributions
<ToeTag> So explicitly no text on the wallpapers?
<pleia2> in general no text is best, since we can't really translate wallpapers ;)
<ToeTag> makes sense
<ToeTag> I was surprised at the "no xubuntu logo" requirement. I guess that's very considerate of them
<pleia2> yeah, we have downstreams that use xubuntu as a base, we don't want to overbrand
<ToeTag> There seems to be no expression of a "submission limit" - anyone see any issues with me submitting multiple cantidates?
<pleia2> that's fine
<pleia2> I think we might restrict it to 1 next cycle though :)
<ToeTag> yeah makes sense
<ToeTag> awesome, thanks a lot
<ToeTag> really appreciate it
<pleia2> thank you!
<ali1234> ah! it works!
<ali1234> it just doesn't redraw itself now
<ali1234> cool. this code now actually works with old style SETROOT wallpapers, and also works with xfdesktop without exploding... and also doesn't have any flickering
<ali1234> brainwash, ochosi: please test background branch on my xfwm4 repo... it should fix everything
<ali1234> you won't even see the wallpaper flicker if xfdesktop crashes, and if you kill it (5 times) you can even set the wallpaper with hsetroot etc
<eric_the_idiot> xfdesktop crashes?
<ali1234> crashes/is killed :)
<ali1234> eric_the_idiot: this whole epic thing has been about having the wallpaper stay the same from greeter startup to fully logged in... it's now possible, but i had to fix many bugs in the greeter, xfwm4, and xfdesktop :)
<ali1234> it all boils down to each one implementing http://www.eterm.org/docs/view.php?doc=ref#trans in a slightly different and incompatible way
<eric_the_idiot> any other patches for xfdesktop?
<ali1234> tomorrow, yes
<ali1234> see the post i just did on xfce-dev
<eric_the_idiot> will do
<winstonebook> hello
<Unit193> Howdy.
<ochosi> morning evryone
<Noskcaj> evening ochosi 
<ochosi> ali1234: that sounds great!
<knome> hullo
<ochosi> heya knome 
<ochosi> updated the submissions page, as you'll have noticed
<knome> yep
<ochosi> also added that note with a link to the history
<koegs> can you tell me how xfce in xubuntu provides the gtk-3.0 theme-name?
<knome> i'm not sure i follow...
<koegs> i am trying awesome within xubuntu, but not all gtk(3)-apps use the correct theme although i have ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini
<koegs> when i start the xubuntu-session, all apps have the correct theme, but not in awesome
<ochosi> koegs: how do you set your theme in awesome?
<ochosi> oh, and, let's take this to #xubuntu
<koegs> ochosi: with ~/.gtkrc-2.0 and ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini
<koegs> ok, i wasnt sure because of the awesome-thingy :)
<knome> if it isn't suitable for #xubuntu because you have a non-default component, it isn't really suitable in #xubuntu-devel either
<knome> i mean, the question is fine, but by your logic...
<koegs> yeah, not the best logic :D
<slickymaster> good afternoon all
<brainwash> ali1234: screen corruption remains and light-locker behaves really odd (cursor jumps around occasionally)
<brainwash> and there seems to be a brief black screen flicker when xfdesktop launches
<ali1234> reinstall everything
<brainwash> ali1234: the black flicker is new since I've compiled the background branch like 30min ago
<ali1234> when does it happen?
<brainwash> exactly when xfdesktop launches, before the icons get displayed
<brainwash> replaced xfwm4, locked the screen and everything works, no screen corruption
<brainwash> no cursor jumping
<ali1234> replaced with what?
<brainwash> mutter
<brainwash> or even with the unpatched xfwm4 I guess
<ali1234> so what happens if you kill xfdesktop first?
<brainwash> it happened even if xfdesktop was not started at all
<ochosi> ali1234: sorry, i haven't been able to test your xfwm4 branch up to now, i'll try to get to it though
<ochosi> it's the background branch, right?
<brainwash> yes, already did some testing
<brainwash> but xfwm4 is somehow causing the screen corruption
<brainwash> and I've noticed a brief black flicker when xfdesktop launches
<ochosi> so what doesn't work for you now?
<ochosi> and that's it?
<brainwash> well, lets see if you can confirm this black flicker
<ochosi> yeah, am about to reboot..
<ochosi> brb
<ochosi> i don't have any problems with the background branch
<ochosi> i mean there is a flicker, but that's xfdesktop
<ochosi> because i'm using the unpatched version from the 4.12 PPA atm
<brainwash> :D
<brainwash> ok, what about lightdm locking?
<ochosi> just normal locking or suspend-locking?
<brainwash> normal
<ochosi> k
<brainwash> and/or via "dm-tool lock"
<ochosi> totally fine
<ochosi> no problems whatsoever with that
<brainwash> ok :(
<ochosi> could be an amd issue
<ochosi> or i dunno
<brainwash> I start thinking the same
<ochosi> alternatively, how clean is your build/test-env?
<brainwash> no hints in any of the log files
<ochosi> or have you tried with the open drivers?
<brainwash> it's messed up one
<brainwash> well, it needs to work with the restricted one
<brainwash> but I'll test the open source one too
<ali1234> there should not be any flicker at all with the new code
<brainwash> and there should not be any theme issue
<brainwash> lets wait for ochosi to test the patched xfdesktop
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah, i have to switch back to the patched xfdesktop...
<ali1234> i didn't patch xfdesktop yet
<brainwash> the latest commit?
<brainwash> git
<ali1234> you should get one transition from the greeter wallpaper to the user wallpaper, and no flicker
<ochosi> i'll use git master of xfdesktop now
<ali1234> well yeah, you do need *that* patch i guess :)
<ali1234> i forgot about that one
<ochosi> ;)
<ochosi> brb
<ochosi> ok, so i do get a brief moment of corruption when xfdesktop loads the wallpaper
<ochosi> but there is no grey/white/black flicker
<ochosi> i'll try to log out and in again to see whether i can reproduce that
<brainwash> corruption?
<ochosi> could be the dualhead setup
<ochosi> cause my internal display is disabled at the greeter
<ochosi> so it flickers briefly when it enables the display with the session
<ochosi> and then it seems to draw the wallpaper a bit borked for a split second and then it's there correctly on the second monitor
<ochosi> i can try without the external monitor a bit later
<brainwash> yeah
<brainwash> gtg now, later
<ali1234> ah i know what that is
<ali1234> it's doing the operations int he wrong order - i had that problem in lightdm
<ali1234> i assume you're both familiar with double buffering... the problem is that xfdesktop doesn't do this
<ochosi> hmm
<ochosi> ali1234: is that easy to implement?
<ochosi> bbiab
<ali1234>     XFreePixmap (dpy, pixmap);
<ali1234> wow, how did i never see that before
<ochosi> ali1234: what do you mean?
<ali1234> well, i thought all this time something else was freeing the pixmap out from under xfwm4
<ali1234> but actually, xfwm4 does it
<ali1234> so making that copy is probably unneccesary
<ali1234> all it needs to do is NOT free the pixmap unless it created it
<ali1234> i'm going to push branches of xfwm4, xfdesktop, and greeter, all with syslog debugging (because order of operations is important)
<ali1234> then we can get to the bottom of this finally
<ochosi> sweet
<ali1234> just tried without the copy and it works
<ochosi> bbabl
<ali1234> wow, that turns the fix into a one liner
<ali1234> actually i bet that fix will fix everything... lol
<ali1234> i dunno. maybe it's never appropriate to free the pixmap
<ali1234> #xorg has the most users and the least amount of talk :/
<brainwash> it fixes what? you said that everything was already working for you
<ali1234> yeah, but my "fix" is long winded and unneccessary
<ali1234> anyway just because it works for me doesn't mean the code is correct
<ali1234> Q i just asked on #xorg: is it valid to create a pixmap, then create a XRender picture from it, then free the pixmap, and carry on using the picture? http://paste.ubuntu.com/6486175/
<ali1234> the answer to this question might explain why you still get corruption
<ali1234> apparently the answer is it's valid
<ochosi> ali1234: hm, there seems to be lots of back and forth, so were do you stand now?
<ali1234> well, i'm happy with xfwm4
<elfy> lol - I got completely lost some time last week ;)
<ali1234> i'm happy with gtk-greeter
<ali1234> i'm not happy with xfdesktop yet
<ali1234> the trouble is, because there is so much communication between them via atoms, a bug in one can mess up all the others
<ali1234> so you see corruption on the xfwm4 root tile, because xfdesktop passed a bad pixmap
<ali1234> or you see xfdesktop crash because xfwm4 called XFreePixmap()
<ali1234> and so on, so even if 2/3 have correct code, the whole thing can still exlode
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> it's just strange that a pixmap has to be passed around so much
<ali1234> it's prefectly reasonable when you understand it
<ali1234> the pixmap has to be shared because the greeter exits before the window manager starts
<ali1234> the mechanism that is used to share the pixmap between greeter and wm also is used by xfdesktop
<ali1234> but none of them used it properly, so they all fight each other
<ali1234> it's not strictly necessary to fix xfdesktop, but i don't like to leave stuff broken
<ochosi> what's broken there atm?
<ali1234> well it sets it sets the ESETROOT atom, which is like hanging a big sign around it's own neck which reads "Please kill me"
<ochosi> that's quite graphic :)
<ali1234> it keeps a reference to the pixmap it puts into the atom and reuses it later, after xfwm4 has freed it.... which is why it crashes
<ali1234> that is a bug of xfwm4, but... programs which do this should not set ESETROOT
<ochosi> but not messing with that atom isn't a solution?
<ali1234> no, using the atoms for message passing is absolutely fine
<ali1234> just as long as you do it correctly
<ochosi> yeah, but is the atom really needed in the desktop?
<ali1234> yes, because xfdesktop has no other way to tell the window manager what to render in the root tile
<ali1234> now the root tile is hardly ever visible, but that isn't the point
<ali1234> the code exists for this, but is broken
<ali1234> it shouldn't be broken
<ochosi> agreed
<ali1234> as i wrote on the ML, there's three ways to use the MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP code
<ali1234> not at all, all the time, or only at startup
<ali1234> i want all three to work, even if we only use one
<ali1234> do you know how to remove xfdesktop from the session startup?
<ali1234> if this code still doesn't work, it might be that we need to do some server grabs to keep things from happening at the same time
<ali1234> i already added that to the greeter, but xfwm4 might need it to
<ochosi> not sure, i think xfce4-session starts it
<ochosi> but you can remove it from there
<ochosi> ali1234: settings-manager > sessions > session 
<ali1234> it's not in there in mine...
<ali1234> ok, bgfix2 branch, please test :)
<ali1234> i haven't added debugging yet, just doing that now
<ochosi> ali1234: i'm at it
<ochosi> do i need anything apart from the bgfix2 branch?
<ali1234> well, i;ve just done the debugging for lightdm-gtk-greeter and xfwm4, so hang on 1 second while i push it
<ali1234> right please test these branches:
<ochosi> ah ok
<ali1234> lp:~a-j-buxton/lightdm-gtk-greeter/experimental-debug
<ali1234> and bgfix2-debug for xfwm4
<ochosi> so those two branches write some logs?
<ochosi> or how can i check the debugging stuff
<ali1234> yes, all logs go to /var/log/syslog
<ochosi> right, it'd be ideal if brainwash could test these, as he's the one seeing troublesome stuff
<ali1234> yeah, i need to add logging to xfdesktop too for that... gotta fork that on github first tho
<ali1234> also, there might be bugs in my logging code :)
<ali1234> that's what you're really testing at this point :)
<ochosi> hehe, fine :)
 * ochosi puts on the guinea-pig t-shirt
<ali1234> so, in order to test, do this: tail -f /var/log/syslog
<ali1234> then try killing xfdesktop one time
<ali1234> then kill it 5 times and try "hsetroot -color \#ff00ff" - you should see the background change to purple
<ochosi> wait, first install the branches, then restart, then kill xfdesktop?[24;2~
<ali1234> yeah, oviously you gotta install it all :)
<ali1234> anyway you should see stuff like "found pixmap" and so on
<ali1234> pastebin all that so i can check it makes sense
<ali1234> you should also see "set root pixmap" from lightdm-gtk-greeter, then when xfwm4 starts you should see it find the same pixmap XID
<ali1234> also stuff about GrabServer
<ochosi> ok, restarting now...
<ochosi> brb
<ochosi> ok, i'm back
<ali1234> just in time for patched xfdesktop
<ochosi> holy crap, xfdesktop won't go away
<ochosi> i mean it says "no process found"
<ochosi> but the wallpaper is still there
<ochosi> ah, that's xfwm4 then
<ochosi> the hsetroot command didn't work though
<ali1234> yeah :)
<ochosi> i mean the syntax doesn't work out :)
<ali1234> the wallpaper should remain even after xfdesktop is killed - that's the *whole* point :)
<ochosi> good, i guess that means that part is working
<ochosi> nice
<ali1234> oh sorry, hsetroot -solid ...
<ochosi> yeah, works
<ali1234> git://github.com/ali1234/xfdesktop
<ali1234> add that in to the mix please :)
<ochosi> and, gahh, my poor eyes!
<ochosi> terrible color-choice
<ochosi> back to black...
<ali1234> \#ff7f00 is nice orange :)
<ali1234> xfdesktop is still pushing
<ochosi> yeah, i was wondering why i received a message about pulling an empty repo :)
<ochosi> that's the problem with these old code-bases
<ochosi> lotsa history
<ochosi> and my connection is lame
<ali1234> well if you have a clone of it already you can just add my repo, it will only fetch the changes
<ali1234> git ftw...
<ochosi> yeah, it's pretty clever
<ali1234> git remote add ali1234 git://github.com/ali1234/xfdesktop && git fetch ali1234 && git checkout ali1234/master
<ochosi> i can't understand why they had to create bzr...
<ali1234> bzr can probably do this too, but i don't know how
<ochosi> ping me when the pushing is done
<ali1234> its done
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> so i presume restarting xfdesktop is enough?
<ali1234> yeah, just kill it (if you did make install)
<ali1234> the greeter is the only one that is funny about that stuff
<ochosi> ok, done
<ochosi> the wallpapers are back
<ali1234> you should see it set the pxmap, then xfwm4 will pick up the new pixmap
<ochosi> Nov 27 22:58:46 legume xfdesktop[7665]: set root pixmap XID=0x3a00023
<ochosi> Nov 27 22:58:46 legume xfwm4[1557]: display=:0.0, screen=0 - found pixmap 0x3a00023
<ali1234> perfect
<ali1234> this is what should happen. the XID should match
<ochosi> it does indeed
<ochosi> need more syslog output?
<ali1234> only if you have corruption or anything like that
<ali1234> try locking the screen :)
<ochosi> no, eveything seems fine
<ochosi> ok :)
<ali1234> you should see that lightdm uses display:1.0
<ali1234> and xfwm4 will not notice that pixmap change
<ochosi> yeah it does
<ochosi> yup, it doesn't
<ali1234> as it shouldn't since it's a different display
<ochosi> worked perfectly
<ali1234> so now we need brainwash to test this, then maybe we see why it corrupts
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> although if it is a driver issue, we probably won't
<ali1234> perhaps not
<ochosi> but still
<ochosi> this is quite informative
<ali1234> if the log looks okay it can only really be a driver issue :(
<ochosi> fwiw, with all the messing around, the greeter doesn't seem to pick up my wallpaper anymore
<ochosi> it always seems to display one i haven't used for a while
<ali1234> yes, because xfdesktop and accountservice
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> but also when i switched back to the 4.12 PPA
<ali1234> it's picking up an old setting - the new xfdesktop uses different keys
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> so the patch doesn't work anymore?
<ali1234> it's quite messed up for me, i think i need to clear out the settings
<ali1234> i haven't aplied the account service patch
<ali1234> never even looked at it
<ochosi> well, would be nice if that worked again here
<ochosi> will now revert to my tabwin branch again
<ochosi> there's still some work to do there
<ali1234> going to need to update it for the new xfdesktop
<ochosi> weird, i was using xfdesktop 4.11 before and i think it worked
<ali1234> probably picking out the old key/value
<ochosi> probably
<ochosi> my desktop settings seem quite oldish
<ochosi> think i'll clear them out
<slickymaster> night all
<ochosi> night slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi ochosi 
<ali1234> brb...
<ali1234> i saw the corruption :(
<ali1234> i think i know why though
<ali1234> also got the missing gtk theme stuff
<ali1234> no idea at all what that's about
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> i didn't get that
<Unit193> "Corruption", black and white lines by chance that go away?
<ochosi> no, just a slightly garbled version of my wallpaper for a split-second
<ali1234> yes, that's what i mean
<ali1234> it's because it sets the root pixmap *before* copying in the wallpaper
<ali1234> i had this problem in the greeter but fixed it
<ali1234> need to fix in in xfdesktop too
<ochosi> right, that sounds promising
<ochosi> so it'll be really smooth in the end
<ali1234> yeah, it's nearly there now... just needs the xfdesktop fixings now
<ali1234> ok, that was easy
<ali1234> https://github.com/ali1234/xfdesktop/commit/d88d5405d0b42334d1b1a14b509708f13813c434
<ali1234> eric_the_idiot: ^
<ali1234> brainwash: testing instructions: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6486852/
<slickymaster> elfy, at your disposal https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubuntu-manual-tests/ubuntu-manual-tests/+merge/196989
<brainwash> ali1234: ok, test results tomorrow, cannot access my test machine at the moment
<ochosi> ali1234: nice, all in all your patches really don't look like they hurt at all, they just remove the communication troubles between the components
<ali1234> right. i think i've made the code shorter overall too
<ali1234> got a really helpful piece of advice from #xorg: use XRenderCreateSolidFill instead of messing about with pixmaps
<ochosi> wowza, anyone ever heard of this before? http://gmc-holle.github.io/xfdashboard/
<ali1234> hah... no
<ochosi> just read about it on the xfce-users ml
<ali1234> looks like a weird cross between unity and gnome-shell... my two "favourite" desktops
<ochosi> yeah, it's strange, the guy said he's a gnome3 refugee, but then again he seems to want gnome3...
<ochosi> and it uses clutter
<ali1234> lol
<ochosi> which might be important for the stuff he does, but eh...?
<ali1234> >.<
<ochosi> just makes me wonder why he doesn't just use gnome3 with some xfce components instead
<ali1234> or unity
<ali1234> does he use a distro that isn't ubuntu?
<Unit193> You can install Unity just fine on Arch.
<ali1234> yeah but not anywhere else
<ali1234> also, "just fine" is a bit of a stretch. there's one guy maintaining the whole unity stack
<ali1234> which is about 10x bigger than all of xfce
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-28
<skellat> After a no-change backport and playing with it on 12.04, I am warming to whiskermenu in lieu of the default.
<ochosi> skellat: good to hear!
<eric_the_idiot> ali1234, pushed your patch minus the comments since they aren't needed with the code gone. Thanks!
<ali1234> eric_the_idiot: also, i think xfdesktop should not set ESETROOT
<eric_the_idiot> yeah, did you want me to push a patch or did you (since you did all the work)?
<ali1234> https://github.com/ali1234/xfdesktop/commit/40ffaaef75865271c5d9695711905415ca8fdab1
<ali1234> patch may not apply clean due to the debugging stuff i added in a previous patch
<ochosi> before i go to bed, i shouldn't read /. but otoh this is a nice read: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4493819&cid=45543527
<ochosi> (some slashdotters seem to love xubuntu :))
<eric_the_idiot> ali1234, pushed as well, thanks again.
<ali1234> thanks. now we wait for the one guy who uses some really broken terminal emulator to come and complain his fake transparent background doesn't work any more :P
<eric_the_idiot> yeah, I noticed in xfdesktop's git logs that esetroot was disabled once before
<ali1234> hmm... i'll check that out
<ali1234> eric_the_idiot: ok so checking those old commits reminded me of something else that i forgot
<ali1234> if the code from commit 160a1fd22 has gone, it should go back in
<pleia2> elfy: I did a 64-bit iso test, do I get a gold star? (that's not the thing I had to tell you, still forgot that)
<elfy> you get a gold star :)
<pleia2> \o/
<elfy> but I will take it back again ... 
<elfy> :p
<Unit193> Could give a copper one, though they might be worth more not too long. :P
<pleia2> lol
 * elfy is aware of the irony in pushing people to make sure they report tests when he's failing badly at finding time
<elfy> but carries on regardless 
<pleia2> testing is boring :)
<pleia2> so I'm going to try hard this cycle to work it into my day in a non disruptive way, most of the time is just spent waiting anyway
<ochosi> yeah, better put on some good music in the background...
<ochosi> (preferably elevator music, e.g. the girl from ipanema in an instrumental version looped for hours)
<elfy> pleia2: should do exploratory stuff instead then - there's a mail in the sidelines waiting to be sent about that :)
<elfy> ochosi has an odd sense of humour ... 
<ochosi> elfy: thanks :)
<pleia2> elfy: hah, well, the issue is that I have too much to do already :) seems iso testing is low bandwidth enough that I should be able to do it while working on Real Things
<pleia2> anyway, xubuntu-website bugs are all tidy now, I should get some sleepies so I can be up in 8 hours for our meeting
<elfy> night night :)
<elfy> pleia2: testing something like terminal has got to be easier than an iso though ... just saying ;)
<Noskcaj> My current hardware is too broken to ISO test, i run 14.04 to try and make up for that
<elfy> Noskcaj: well - there's more than iso testing - there's package testing - which sounds just right for that scenario :p
<Noskcaj> elfy, I try to do some, but i spend most of my time packaging random stuff
<elfy> :)
<Noskcaj> Does anyone have time to try and see what's wrong with the extensions in https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/gthumb/3.2.5/+merge/196783
<Noskcaj> It doesn't make it to debian/tmp/ if that changes anything
<slickymaster> morning all
<ochosi> morning
<slickymaster> elfy, ready to be merged: https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubuntu-manual-tests/ubuntu-manual-tests/+merge/196989
<slickymaster> hi ochosi
<brainwash> ali1234: forgot to bookmark the test instruction (ubuntu pastebin), but I've compiled the bgfix2 branch and xfdesktop and the brief black flicker is now gone
<ochosi> brainwash: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6486852/
<brainwash> so more more flicker madness
<brainwash> you said that you were able to reproduce the gtk theme problem of xfdesktop?
<brainwash> still hapenns for me
<brainwash> happens
<ochosi> what did you mean with "more more flicker madness" exactly?
<brainwash> no more
<brainwash> still a bit sleepy :(
<brainwash> but I really like the flicker-free transition
<brainwash> feels like using a modern OS
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i hope we can get everything of that into 14.04
<ochosi> the xfwm4 patch will probably have to be cherry-picked
<brainwash> yeah, luckily we got "plenty" of time left until release
<brainwash> so it's not a last minute thing
<ochosi> indeed
<ochosi> i'd wish 4.12 would be released in time for 14.04
<ochosi> but i fear that
<ochosi> 's whishful thinking
<jjfrv8> some good press here: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/11/expect-xubuntu-14-04-lts?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+d0od+%28OMG!+Ubuntu!%29
<ochosi> hehe, light-locker "... fixes a number some outstanding session-locking issues"
<ochosi> or wait, does it in fact for the first time really lock lubuntu's session? :D
<jjfrv8> ochosi, can I ask you a couple of questions about GTK3 indicators and light-locker documentation?
<ochosi> jjfrv8: sure
<ochosi> just ask away
<jjfrv8> We've got them listed on the blueprint as blocked. Can you enlighten me on what the issues there are?
<brainwash> ali1234: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6489704/
<ochosi> jjfrv8: well the gtk3 indicator stuff hasn't been uploaded yet
<brainwash> why not?
<ochosi> and light-locker has been uploaded by an ubuntu-desktop dev, but it's not yet part of our seed
<ochosi> brainwash: because no-one has packaged it yet
<ochosi> (and don't look at me cause i'm not a packager)
<brainwash> but it's an important change
<brainwash> it really should be packaged and made available for easy testing
<brainwash> they changed the indicator startup mechanics
<brainwash> every indicator has an autostart entry now
<brainwash> so the workaround cannot be applied anymore (see bug report)
<jjfrv8> ochosi, once they are ready for testing, will we work the docs something like we did with parole?  DokuWiki?
<ochosi> brainwash: we'll see, if it's a new change it's possible that the indicator-plugin won't work with them anymore (again)
<brainwash> ochosi: ok
<ochosi> jjfrv8: well, e.g. light-locker won't really need much documentation
<ochosi> and the gtk3-indicators will work like the gtk2 indicators
<brainwash> ali1234: login -> kill xfdesktop -> kill xfdesktop -> lock screen
<brainwash> and gpu going crazy like always after unlocking the screen
<ochosi> jjfrv8: well actually the indicator-plugin is an xfce project, so we could do it as we did with parole. in case we don't put it in xubuntu's offline documentation
<ochosi> jjfrv8: what would be helpful though is docs for xfdesktop, as there are quite a few changes in that and we ship it
<jjfrv8> ochosi, do you think we should remove the light-locker item from the blueprint?
<ochosi> jjfrv8: i've talked to eric before and he'd be very grateful if we help him with the docs
<ochosi> well the thing is, as long as light-locker works, you won't notice it
<ochosi> you go to "lock screen" and you end up at the greeter
<ochosi> when you unlock your session from there, light-locker is gone again
<ochosi> and that's about it
<ochosi> it's supposed to stay "invisible"
<jjfrv8> that would work for me :)
<ochosi> so not sure what to document there...
<jjfrv8> I can add an item for xfdesktop. I assume that would go with the xfce stuff?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> basically update http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/start
<ochosi> to reflect 4.11
<ochosi> you can install the current xfdesktop that we'll want to document from the Xubuntu-dev 4.12 PPA
<ochosi> this time, as it is a core component, screenshots will have to be taken with the xfce-theme
<ochosi> but xfdesktop is still gtk2, so there won't be the same problems we had with parole
<jjfrv8> how would we go about editing the existing version? Would you set up a staging area again?
<ochosi> yup, i think that worked well last time
<jjfrv8> so you'll take care of that?
<ochosi> yup, i can send you and slickymaster or whoever wants to join a link as soon as it's set up
<ochosi> i'll probably leave out the current screenshots, as they will have to be updated anyway...
<jjfrv8> very good. thanks. I think that's it for now.
<ochosi> cool, maybe i'll manage before the meeting today
<ochosi> then we can throw the link in the minutes
<jjfrv8> !
<ochosi> jjfrv8: not sure i'll be here for all of the meeting, so just to be sure, this is the link ;) http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs
<jjfrv8> great. we'll get started on it.
<ochosi> awesome
<ochosi> i think in the advanced part there won't be many changes
<jjfrv8> k
<ochosi> prefs and usage need the most attention
<ochosi> i'll take care of the bugs-section
<ochosi> gotta talk to eric and nick first whether they're fine if we do that parole-style
<jjfrv8> ok, will wait to hear back on that.
<ochosi> knome: i can only be around for the first 20mins of the meeting. would be nice if i could get one talking point then (wallpapers)
<ochosi> jjfrv8: eerr, i actually only referred to the bugs-section, i think the rest can be simply done as we've handled it before
<ochosi> improve and correct the stuff that's there
<ochosi> (well in this case it should be easier as there is already more info available)
<jjfrv8> oh, okay
<GridCube> meeting is in 1 hour according to my memory
<ochosi> actually docs.xfce still points towards xfce4.10, but i think we can set up parallel docs for 4.12 already
<ochosi> GridCube: yeah, unfortunately, it's 1hr too late for me today :/
<GridCube> :(
<ochosi> well, no biggie, luckily we also talk outside of meetings
<GridCube> P: true that
<ali1234> brainwash: what is on the log when you lock the screen?
<ochosi> hey ali1234 
<ochosi> i think it would be ideal if we could start testing 14.04 asap with gtk3 indicators, to see whether they still work (who knows, maybe they're changing stuff about them again, like pretty much every cycle...)
<ali1234> yes
<ochosi> brainwash mentioned something about each indicator having it's own desktop file now
<ochosi> eh no, autostart entry
<ochosi> (misremembered)
<ochosi> although that much should be ok with the current indicator-plugin, iirc
<ali1234> that doesn't matter - they use dbus activation
<ochosi> actually bluesabre brought up an interesting matter recently
<ochosi> he has one of them fancy hidpi displays now on his laptop
<ochosi> so the 24px panel is too tiny
<ochosi> when we last talked about indicator-icons, i remember you saying that they aren't provided in larger sizes by the service, do i remember that correctly?
<ali1234> yeah
<ali1234> they are provided as pixmaps afaik
<ali1234> actually i'm not sure how that even works with themes
<ali1234> ochosi: did you notice on brainwash' log that the second time lightdm runs, it runs on display :0?
<ochosi> no, that's quite weird though
<ochosi> i mean that's against lightdm's design
<ali1234> i should have added a thing that tells you what mode lightdm is in too
<ochosi> true, that'd be helpful
<ochosi> although you'll see it on the login-button label
<ochosi> it either says "login" or "unlock" depending on whether it's in lock-mode or not
<ochosi> (if you meant that kind of mode)
<ali1234> yeah but i can't see that in the log :)
<ochosi> indeed :)
<ali1234> so is 14.04 actually viable for testing yet?
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> ali1234, http://xubuntu.org/news/help-us-test-xubuntu-14-04-lts/
<ali1234> hahaha, that doesn't mean it's viable at all
<jjfrv8> ochosi, sorry to interrupt, but have you looked at the sitemap on bluesabre's wiki? It looks like people are dumping stuff there.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: oh, no i haven't
<ochosi> thanks for the pointer, lemme check that
<ochosi> holy crap, you're right :p
<ochosi> might be a good idea to lock the wiki down and restrict access to the ones who should use it...
<jjfrv8> yup, looks like it.
<ochosi> bluesabre will have to do that i think
<brainwash> ali1234, ochosi: it's "unlock"
<brainwash> booted the system, locking the screen actually worked this time, did a relog, screen corruption again
<brainwash> on top of that, the greeter flicker between two themes/wallpapers
<brainwash> flickers/switches
<brainwash> when I move my mouse
<ochosi> quite funky :)
<ali1234> what does the log say?
<brainwash> I can confirm, that locking the screen does not cause any visual trouble after boot
<ali1234> that's pretty much exactly what i would expect to happen if the greeter ran over the existing session
<brainwash> give me a moment
<knome> pleia2, good morning
<ochosi> brb
 * skellat is ready for a meeting this time around
<pleia2> o/
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 28 16:00:37 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<knome> pop up your hand up if you're around
<pleia2> o/
<skellat> o/
<jjfrv8> o/
<ali1234> o/
<micahg> o/
<knome> cool :)
<knome> ochosi, GridCube, brainwash: hullo
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<brainwash> o/
<knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 
<knome> #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week 
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
<knome> TBD
<knome> #action micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation 
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation
<knome> micahg, status? :)
<micahg> oops
<knome> heh, np
<micahg> I think I forgot
<knome> let's carry that on then
<ochosi> o/
<knome> #action micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs 
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs
<knome> micahg, ?
<ochosi> (sorry, that was a late popping up of the hand)
<knome> or was that done by mr_pouit 
<skellat> whiskermenu is in archive for trusty
<knome> #info Done, whiskermenu is in the archive for trusty.
<knome> #subtopic Strategy Document reviewing
<micahg> 4.10 PPA times out for me
<ochosi> lp ftw
<skellat> I've got whiskermenu backported in ppa:skellat/tests
<GridCube> o/
<skellat> And am playing with it on 12.04.3 at the moment
<micahg> I could upload whiskermenu right now if someone tells me which releases and if it's the 4.12 PPA
<ochosi> skellat: there should also be an official PPA by the whiskermenu dev
<knome> have people had time to look at the new strategy document?
<knome> ochosi, micahg: can you get to that after the meeting or in PM; thanks for taking care though :)
<GridCube> i have read it before and i don't have anything to say against it
<jjfrv8> knome, I have, but it was a while ago. I'm okay with it.
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-November/009413.html
<knome> that's the link to the mail that links the new branch
<micahg> I have not had a chance to review it
<knome> sent on nov 5
<knome> micahg, basically:
<knome> (and others:)
<knome> 1) only allow members of ~xubuntu-team to vote for the new XPL
<knome> 2) strip out the process descriptions, move to wiki/Xubuntu/Processes (done already)
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes
<knome> pleia2 can confirm i'm not tricking you, she worked with the later update with me
<pleia2> indeed
<pleia2> knome didn't want to be xpl forever, so we left that part out
<ochosi> i'm also fine with it
<GridCube> yes, as i said, i've read it, i don't see why its needed or relevant, but im ok with the changes
<knome> we are much shorter now, and i hope the SD can be much more useful this way for daily development
<knome> let's vote.
<micahg> I don't want to get any shorter :P
<knome> #vote Approve proposed Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1); members of -team can vote
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve proposed Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1); members of -team can vote
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<knome> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from knome
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<GridCube> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from GridCube
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<skellat> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from skellat
<knome> skellat, can you argument?
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<skellat> We need to loosen up unsuitable packages a little considering the amount of stuff Ubuntu mainline is producing in Python
<skellat> Which is an interpreted language
<knome> skellat, as we've discussed, we should do that review later after these changes are up
<skellat> Okay
<knome> what we're voting is "are the changes okay", not "is this the perfect SD"
<knome> i would imagine there is always room for improvement
<skellat> My vote won't change the outcome anyhow :-)
<micahg> mrh
<knome> just wanted to ask for arguments
<micahg> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from micahg
<knome> micahg, ?
<ochosi> what, so everyone's now +0-ing because their vote doesn't matter? :D
<micahg> I had the idea of voting on something I haven't read...I'm not a member of Congress...
<micahg> s/had/hate/
<knome> seriously,
<knome> you have had 23 days to review the changes
<skellat> ochosi: Nah, there are already enough positive votes that one negative by me won't block it
<pleia2> strategy documents are boring :)
<GridCube> ^
 * ochosi goes to the closet, gets the big elephant whip and hands it to knome 
<ochosi> skellat: i know, i was just kidding ;)
<micahg> I think I've worked at least 150 hours in the past 23 days...
<knome> i can allow for one more week if micah promises he will get to read the document by that time.
<pleia2> micahg: hugs
<knome> micahg, i understand, and i'm sorry, but ultimately we need to keep things rolling. the XPL-voting change has been pending for months
<ochosi> micahg: ouch, i hope at least your bankaccount reflects that! :>
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve proposed Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1); members of -team can vote
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:3
<meetingology> Motion carried
<micahg> ochosi: unfortunately not...
<skellat> knome: We'll need to ask lderan to add an "abandonvote" function eventually to meetingology
<knome> #info motion not carried. one more week to review.
<micahg> knome: you have enuogh votes without me here
<lderan> skellat: shall add it :)
<knome> lderan, or just make #undo work on votes
<knome> not if we want -team quorum.
<micahg> give me a couple minutes and I can diff/read
<knome> okay
<knome> both versions are in the branch
<pleia2> thanks micahg 
<knome> and i'll make sure i word the vote better
<micahg> knome: if you restate your vote, it's an effective #undo
<knome> micahg, we're talking about undoing a whole vote, not a single persons
<micahg> oh, haha
<ochosi> ok folks, i'm out of the door with one foot
<ochosi> knome: mind if i say something to the wallpapers and then run off?
<knome> #subtopic Something about wallpapers
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> #info The wallpaper contest has been running for a short while, but we already have quite a few accepted submissions:
<ochosi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers/Accepted
<ochosi> while i think it's enough to already call it a success, i'd like to encourage everyone in the team to point to the call for wallpapers again
<ochosi> and also encourage artists whose artwork you personally like to contribute
<ochosi> so, all the social-media mumbo-jumbo etc.
<knome> #action knome and pleia2 to give the wallpaper contest some publicity in social media again
<meetingology> ACTION: knome and pleia2 to give the wallpaper contest some publicity in social media again
<ochosi> righty, thanks
<ochosi> gotta take off, will read the rest when i'm back
<knome> ochosi, one sec
<knome> ochosi, would your vote be +1 for the SD?
<knome> just double-checking.
<ochosi> i already voted on that
<ochosi> so yeah, still +1
<ochosi> bbl
<pleia2> thanks ochosi 
<pleia2> knome: next!
<knome> just a sec
<knome> #subtopic Strategy Document reviewing
<knome> #vote Approve the proposed changes to the Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1, please argument)
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve the proposed changes to the Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1, please argument)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> better wording, eh?
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<skellat> +1 since we can address the Python-based mainline stuff question at a later time
<meetingology> +1 since we can address the Python-based mainline stuff question at a later time received from skellat
<knome> +0, want to give the community a word on changes.
<meetingology> +0, want to give the community a word on changes. received from knome
<knome> there is one more +1 from ochosi
 * GridCube is ok with the changes just doesnt understand why they are so important
<pleia2> GridCube: I think making it shorter is important so people actually read it
<GridCube> well, yes, that is true
<pleia2> GridCube: and re: XPL - currently votes come from a completely open team, very few of whom have insight into team workings, this is very odd
<knome> ultimately the SD should be a guide in day-to-day development of xubuntu
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<knome> unless we have a clear idea where we are going, or can't refer to those rules, we're running around like headless chicken and it's really hard for new contributors to jump in and grasp what we are steering our development by
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve the proposed changes to the Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1, please argument)
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<pleia2> hooray!!
<knome> 6 is quorum, 5-0-1 is approved
<GridCube> I see, i see, yes, those where the reasons why im OK with the changes, i just fail to see how the old SD is inflecting something on us, even if they have voice, they never choose to make it notice
<GridCube> :)
<knome> #topic Team updates
<GridCube> but anyway, :)
<knome> #info ochosi and knome have been working with the wallpaper contest
<knome> #info knome and Unit193 have been looking at docs translations
<skellat> #info whiskermenu is backported for P, Q, R, and S in ppa:skellat/tests for those who wish to try it
<GridCube> can docs be translated trhough launchpad?
<pleia2> #info pleia2 completed triaging website bugs this week
<knome> #info elfy has been working with organizing QA for the T cycle
<knome> GridCube, yes.
<micahg> #info whiskermenu is backported in the Xfce 4.10 PPA
<pleia2> #info pleia2 put out a call for VM-based tests to determine our actual minimum requirements
<micahg> #info Xfce 4.10 PPA backport was done by mr_pouit 
<knome> #info you can translate the docs at: https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs (note that several changes and additions are going to land later this cycle)
<skellat> #info Out of vUDS-1311, we may have the opportunity to ask local communities to "adopt a package" for work or testing during this cycle.  LoCo Council hasn't fully set this up yet, though.
<knome> skellat, will you follow up on that?
<skellat> knome: In what way?
<knome> telling us when that's set up.
<knome> :)
<skellat> knome: Yes
<knome> ta
<knome> more updates?
<GridCube> whats the status of mugshot?
<knome> bluesabre, ?
<knome> bluesabre, also tell us about menulibre if you're around
<jjfrv8> #info after discussion with ochosi, we dropped light-locker and added xfdesktop to the documentation blueprint
<GridCube> so no lightdm locking?
<knome> i would imagine the goals are still as planned
<skellat> GridCube: No need to write it up in documentation
<jjfrv8> no, it just doesn't need documentation
<knome> and we shouldn't use such technical names in the docs anyway
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> #subtopic There is a new Launchpad team ~xubuntu-qa
<knome> #info this team has currently only a social meaning, being the subteam from which people who contributed to QA can ultimately be approved to -team (per the SD)
<knome> #info if you think you should be a member in this (moderated) team, poke elfy.
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic Meeting time reviewing
<knome> so,
<knome> several people told me in the last days this time isn't best for them
<knome> neither it is for me
<knome> i'm proposing 18UTC or 19UTC as the new time.
<knome> still on thursdays
<knome> is this horrible for some?
<jjfrv8> np for me
<GridCube> what utc is now?
<skellat> I *may* have an issue coming up that will prevent meeting attendance in general but I'm not allowed to talk about it in a logged channel
<knome> 1643
<GridCube> im traveling at that hours to my home
<knome> from 18UTC to 20UTC?
<GridCube> but im not esential on the developing process so go ahead
<knome> i mean, i'm proposing either 18-19 or 19-20 UTC
<GridCube> basically, i have 1.5hs of traveling every day
<knome> (even 20-21 UTC works)
<knome> (for me)
<micahg> I'm at work for all of that, so that's fine
<GridCube> knome, dont bend the hours for me tho, again, i contribute very little to the developing process 
<knome> ok, let's try 19UTC next week.
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next week
<knome> bah...
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Subtopic object at 0x16ea8d0>
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
<knome> #info Next meeting: Thu 5 Nov, 19UTC
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 28 16:45:47 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-28-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-28-16.00.html
<knome> ta
<knome> i'll put up the minutes later
<pleia2> thanks knome 
<pleia2> let me know when you make changes to SD live, we can social media that too
<GridCube> thank s :)
<pleia2> on the wiki
<knome> i'll do that once i put up the minutes
<GridCube> P: also when you will have time for desktop of the week
<knome> i'll take at least a short break
<knome> GridCube, mhm...
<GridCube> mmhmhm
<knome> yeah, we're moving during the next 2,5 weeks
<knome> we got the keys to the new flat today
<knome> bbl
<ali1234> ochosi: so, 99% sure that light-locker is running on :0 for brainwash...
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, not sure if you've seen it yet but your dokuwiki is getting seriously spammed.
<jjfrv8> I wasn't sure when you would be back so I took the liberty of changing the group permissions myself
<jjfrv8> I change @ALL and @user to read-only. When you get a chance, I guess you can adjust it to whatever you think is best.
<jjfrv8> If you don't have the time to clean out all the crap, let me know, I could probably do it.
<jjfrv8> off to eat turkey, bbl
<pleia2> enjoy :)
<jjfrv8> thanks :)
<ochosi> ali1234: light-locker should run on :0, only lightdm-gtk-greeter should run on :1
<ali1234> yeah that's what i meant
<ali1234> actually reading logs again, it's not doing that
<ali1234> brainwash: what actually happens in that log?
<ochosi> nice question :p
<ali1234> it looks like it runs on :1 then runs again on :0
<ali1234> i'm going to add more debugging i guess
<ochosi> sounds good
<ochosi> it's very odd though
<ochosi> there should at least be something about this in the lightdm logs
<ochosi> can't really imagine why the greeter would run on :0
<brainwash> ali1234: basically it's login greeter -> login -> lock screen -> unlock -> relog -> lock again -> screen corruption
<brainwash> ochosi: do you test on trusty?
<ochosi> brainwash: no, on saucy
<brainwash> well
<ochosi> i only have one laptop here atm, and i need it, so i can't bork it right now
<brainwash> guess we have an explanation
<ochosi> probably..
<brainwash> <-- trusty
<ochosi> hm, newer version of lightdm maybe?
<ochosi> they managed to really mess up lightdm badly during the saucy cycle
<ochosi> (it wasn't working properly for most of the cycle)
<ochosi> (especially with locking)
<brainwash> yeah, newer version https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm
<brainwash> so it's time to set up your trusty test environment :P
<ochosi> hmpf
<ochosi> i think i gotta talk with folks in ubuntu-desktop
<ochosi> it should be in their best interest to keep lightdm working as lockscreen with light-locker
<ali1234> brainwash: what does "relog" mean?
<brainwash> logout and login
<brainwash> back to greeter
<ali1234> ok, i never tried that
<ochosi> ah, that is a problem i can reproduce in saucy
<ochosi> i've been meaning to talk to robert about that for a few days
<ochosi> it's a lightdm problem, i'm pretty sure
<brainwash> ?!
<ochosi> already scanned my logs, but couldn't find anything about it
<ali1234> so login -> lock -> unlock -> logout -> login -> lock -> unlock
<brainwash> yes
<ali1234> and then the screen corrupts?
<ochosi> yeah, pretty much
<brainwash> yes
<ali1234> ok, i will investigate
<ali1234> i'll have to install this all on another machine though
<ochosi> lemme try again, just for the fun of it
<ochosi> i think it also happens with the current greeter
<ochosi> brb
<ali1234> probably, nothing i changed should cause it :P
<ali1234> might make it more likely/obvious though
<brainwash> I actually thought that it happens all the time, but not today, only after relogging once
<brainwash> and the xfdesktop theme problem is some sort of race condition
<ochosi> actually i have a different problem :)
<ochosi> after i log out and log in again, i can't lock the session anymore with lightdm
<ochosi> sorry brainwash, i misremembered
<ochosi> neither with light-locker nor with dm-tool
<brainwash> why not?
<ochosi> so light-locker is not the bad guy
<ochosi> nothing happens
<brainwash> lightdm log files?
<brainwash> maybe it is related
<ochosi> yeah, maybe
<ochosi> but as i said, can't find any evidence of why nothing happens
<ochosi> there's simply "no response"
<ochosi> ali1234: while your at testing stuff, could you try to reproduce that as well? startup > log out > log in > try to lock
<ali1234> isn't that the same thing?
<ochosi> in saucy locking doesn't work anymore for me in this precise (pun intended!) case
<ochosi> well, brainwash actually locks his session one time in between
<ochosi> otherwise it's the same
<ochosi> i don't think that makes a difference, but who knows..
<brainwash> just test both cases
<ochosi> ok, gotta go
<ochosi> ttyl
<elfy> best laid schemes of mice and men
<elfy> missed the meeting then 
<Unit193> <knome> #info Next meeting: Thu 5 Nov, 19UTC  Everyone get your Tardis ready!
<knome> what?
<knome> oh BOO
<knome> :P
<Unit193> GridCube: I agree but with me, I'm the same way (not needed generally in meetings.)
<GridCube> :) and :(
<GridCube> at least i try to give those who develope the little voice of an user
<Unit193> Oh, and forgot to say: http://goo.gl/IH5Su5
<ali1234> hmm... yeah there's definitely somethin wrong with light-locker
<ali1234> i don't get corruption and i don't get a simple failure to lock...i get a black screen with blinking cursor and if i move the mouse around it changes on where window borders would be
<ali1234> exact same steps to reproduce
<ali1234> same result whether i lock the screen during first login or not
<ali1234> login, logout, login, lock screen -> xorg crashes
<ali1234> maybe two light-lockers are running?
<ali1234> here's the xorg logs from display :1
<ali1234> this is when it works: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491291/
<ali1234> this is when it doesn't:http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491290/
<ali1234> [   845.319] (EE) intel(0): [drm] failed to set drm interface version: Permission denied [13]. <- this seems to be the problem. the xserver on :1 can't start
<ali1234> would be interested to see logs from other drivers
<slickymaster> good night all
<Unit193> Howdy.
<pleia2> started getting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports back into shape
<slickymaster> Unit193, :)
<pleia2> figured standard format each month will be list blog posts/announcements, <<Include>> meeting links and copy Team updates from meeting minutes
<knome> pleia2, or include team updates as well?
<knome> for starters that might be a bit messy, but ultimately we can teach the team to be more accurate and clean on their #infos for team updates
<knome> pleia2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes#Wiki_maintaining
<knome> pleia2, feel free to add the team reports stuff there
<knome> pleia2, meeting minutes are up
<knome> pleia2, strategy document updated
<knome> (am i flooding your inbox again?)
<pleia2> knome: thanks
 * pleia2 social medias the strategy document
<knome> mhm
<knome> want me to twitter or will you handle that as well?
<pleia2> I can do it :)
<knome> oki
<pleia2> knome: want to write a quick post to -devel about it?
<knome> meh
<knome> ok
<pleia2> hehe
<ali1234> this is extremely weird
<ali1234> light-locker isn't even running
<knome> pleia2, should be out
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> knome: still awake? want to look at the mailing lists for a few minutes?
<knome> sure :)
<pleia2> we had talked about discarding unsubscribed messages rather than moderating them
<knome> yep
<pleia2> still think this is a good idea?
<knome> pretty much, though
<knome> i think we could have a bit more relaxed policy
<knome> approve the first message, but send the user a mail asking to subscribe
<knome> (and cc the other mods/admins)
<pleia2> so not auto-discarding then
<knome> that would be a bit rude
<pleia2> indeed :)
<knome> if it's a single post, and they get an answer, and then go and say thank you (unsubscribed), i think we can let that slip
<pleia2> ok then, so nothing to do really, just social change in our behavior
<knome> (though we should still tell them they should subscribe)
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> but if it goes on, we should stop approving
<knome> and let the users register
<pleia2> ok, works for me
<knome> that's currently a bit short page ;)
<knome> now that we discussed this...
<knome> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Toolbox/Messages
<knome> but we could collect a page full of ready-written messages
<pleia2> ah, nice
<knome> including the mail to non-subscribed people
<knome> or actually we should simply make that part of the Processes page, i think
<knome> i'm also thinking the Processes-page is getting a tad long
<knome> maybe we should look at splitting it to subpages at some point
<knome> pleia2, btw, are you sure teamreports is good on "update on release" ? :P
<knome> shouldn't that be "update monthly"
<pleia2> oops
<knome> hehe
<knome> np
<ochosi> ali1234: well if light-locker isn't running, then that's really odd
<ali1234> i know right
<ali1234> makes no sense at all
<ali1234> it just never runs
<ochosi> ?
<ochosi> and when you manually start it?
<ochosi> how did you install it?
<ochosi> daily PPA?
<ali1234> sudo make install
<ali1234> after purging the ppa package
<ochosi> well i'm not sure, but it should put itself into /etc/xdg/autostart
<ochosi> what was wrong with the ppa?
<ali1234> it has no debugging
<ochosi> did you build with systemd support?
<ali1234> not if you have to do anything special for that
<ochosi> :/
<ali1234> i did: sudo apt-get purge light-locker && ./autogen.sh && make && sudo make install
<ochosi> if you still have consolekit installed (which used to be the case in saucy i think), you probably get consolekit
<ali1234> then: sudo service lightdm restart
<ali1234> then logged in and did light-locker-command -l
<ochosi> well, rather check what you compiled it with
<ochosi> yeah, after sudo make install it isn't running
<ali1234> then i unlocked the screen and checked syslog. light-locker did not run at any point during any of this
<ochosi> you have to either reboot or restart your session
<ochosi> or you start it manually the first time after installing
<ali1234> i did: sudo service lightdm restart
<ali1234> this restarts the session (and xorg)
<ochosi> lightdm!=light-locker
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> that's what you meant
<ochosi> hm, dunno how/whether the xdg-autostart stuff works when you just compile without prefix
<ochosi> it might end up in the wrong place
<ochosi> so you might have to manually start it in that case
<ochosi> or add it to the autostarted apps in the session
<ali1234> i should note that nothing at all changed in the behaviour, between using the PPA and using the self-built one
<ali1234> in both cases the x server fails to start on :1 if you've logged out and logged in again. restarting lightdm clears the error
<ochosi> so you never tried to start the process yourself?
<ochosi> yeah, but that doesn't sound like a problem with the locker
<ali1234> no. i assumed it was working because light-locker-command -l worked
<ochosi> cause logging out and in again is purely lightdm's stuff
<ali1234> yes. and this is probably what causes the corruption too
<ali1234> it would be interesting to see what happens with a different greeter. like say unity
<ochosi> yeah, easy to test
<ali1234> "something" must be responsible for starting the second X server
<ali1234> somewhere something does exec("/usr/bin/xorg", ...);
<ali1234> i'm not clear on whether it is lightdm, light-locker, or consolekit, or something else
<ochosi> i'm talking to robert_ancell atm in #ubuntu-desktop if you wanna join
<slickymaster> cy tomorrow guys
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-29
<Unit193> Speaking of slicky, I see he's pending on -docs, does knome, Unit193, or someone want to add him?
<knome> +1 for that.
<Unit193> Want me to press the button?  I think it's pretty clear by the merges, translations, and talk here that he's already quite involved.
<knome> if you are next to the button, please do
<bluesabre> big red button!
<ali1234> brainwash, ochosi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1256150
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1256150 in xorg (Ubuntu) "Xorg guest session fails to start if the user has logged out and logged in again" [High,Confirmed]
<ali1234> brainwash: this is your corruption bug, it's not even specific to xubuntu, affects unity too :(
<ali1234> it seems to affect all graphics drivers, but in different ways
<Unit193> bluesabre: Where there any changes in the metas or settings I was supposed to look at?
<Unit193> knome: Can we consider dropping usc to recommends?
<knome> Unit193, yes.
<knome> Unit193, that's probably even a sane thing to do, but let's run it through a meeting first
<Unit193> I had no idea why it was a dep, and a tad annoying.  I bet I'll still lose xubuntu-desktop on upgrades, but no reason to have USC as a hard dep.
<knome> yep
<elfy> knome: changed the meeting to 1900UTC as per yesterday16:45  <knome> ok, let's try 19UTC next week.
<ochosi> ali1234: thanks for reporting the bug
<ali1234> morning :)
<ochosi> morning ali1234 :)
<ochosi> finally debugging something resulted in work for other ppl, not us ;)
<ali1234> hahaha, not if we want it to get fixed
<ochosi> well i believe in this case we have higher chances of getting it fixed than with xfce-bugs
<slickymaster> morning all
<ochosi> at least robert is aware of it, so that means *something*
<ochosi> hey slickymaster 
<slickymaster> morning ochosi 
<ochosi> slickymaster: talked to jack yesterday about docs for xfdesktop, also settled everything with upstream about that. wanna cooperate on that again?
<ochosi> basically the process would be like with parole
<slickymaster> ochosi: of course, no need to ask
<slickymaster> I see, in bluesabre dokuwiki, right?
<slickymaster> ochosi: Am I assuming correctly that you're referring to http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs ?
<slickymaster> hey, wth, there's seems to be something really wrong with bluesabre dokuwiki, it's full of crap
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> got spammed
<ochosi> we gotta clean it up first and set restrictions..
<ochosi> bbiab
<slickymaster> elfy: ping me when you'll have a chance
<ali1234> ochosi: i'm looking at the logs more carefully...
<ochosi> ali1234: seeing stuff that was overlooked before?
<ali1234> works: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491291/
<ali1234> fails: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491290/
<ali1234> yes, absolutely
<ali1234> open the two pastes and ctrl-f VT
<ali1234> when it fails it tries to open :1 on VT 7 instead of VT 8
<ali1234> which pretty much explains exactly what we observe
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's quite odd
<ochosi> "it" being lightdm?
<ali1234> yeah this is a lightdm bug for sure
<ali1234> it's telling Xorg to use VT7 when that VT is already in use
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> better add that to the bugreport, i hope robert will be able to fix that sooner rather than later..
<ali1234> yeah, added
<ochosi> slickymaster, jjfrv8_: bluesabre and me will clean up the staging wiki, just one note for xfdesktop:
<ochosi> when there are new functions (and there will be a few) in the 4.11/4.12 release, we should add a <note></note> to state that this function is only available in version X
<ochosi> so, i think the goal is to 1) improve the current documentation and 2) add documentation for the 4.12 release (which you can test from here: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/
<slickymaster> ochosi: ok, I'm assuming that will be me and jjfrv8_ working on it
<ochosi> xfdesktop 4.11.1 is what you want
<ochosi> slickymaster: yeah, i think we'll be the same team
<ochosi> i'll coordinate stuff with upstream and will also take care of the bugreports section
<ochosi> also, never change a winning team ;)
<slickymaster> ochosi: we're talking on a Trusty box, right?
<ochosi> nah, that doesn't matter much
<ochosi> xfdesktop will look the same here and there
<ochosi> you can use saucy if you prefer that
<slickymaster> well as I already several trusty VM for testing, I'll preserve one for this
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> then it's also easier to check the difference between the current xfdesktop version (4.10) and the new one
<ochosi> in case you're unsure what changed
<slickymaster> let me just talk with jjfrv8_ first to split the work between us, so we'll be both on the same page
<ochosi> sure, no rush
<slickymaster> you were saying "in case you're unsure what changed" but you didn't finish your thought
<ochosi> actually i finished the sentence from before ;)
<ochosi> having a vbox with xfdesktop4.11 and the normal install with 4.10 enables you to check the diffs easier, in case you're unsure
<ochosi> (so now it's in one line again ^ ;))
<slickymaster> ok, got it ;)
<ochosi> i can tell you asmuch that much of the change is to be found in the settings-app
<ochosi> you can also check the release-emails, those give you a good idea of what to look out for
<slickymaster> where's the mailing list?
<ochosi> one sec, i can dig up the release mails
<slickymaster> take your time
<ochosi> ignore the bugfixes i guess: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-September/000285.html
<ochosi> here are the 4.11.1 release notes: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-November/000289.html
<slickymaster> ochosi: tk, I'll go through it before starting
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> hope we can clean up the wiki soon and restrict access
<slickymaster> yeah, it's a complete mess, as it is now
<ochosi> need to wait for bluesabre to do that, but i think he's probably still knocked out from thanksgiving :)
<slickymaster> he's probably digest all the turkey he had ;)
<davmor2> ochosi: I don't think he would thank you for knocking him out ;)
<slickymaster> davmor2: well, ochosi can always argue that what knocked him out was the turkey, not him ;)
<ali1234> ochosi: does the light-locker ppa or any of the other xubuntu ppas have a newer version of lightdm than what's in saucy?
<davmor2> slickymaster: well hitting someone with a Turkey probably would knock them out, especially if it was still frozen :D
<ochosi> ali1234: neither light-locker PPA nor the other xubuntu PPAs afaik
<ali1234> hmm... interesting
<ochosi> well it could be a regression that no-one was aware of
<ochosi> so many things broke in the 1.7 cycle..
<ali1234> well apparently downgrading to 1.8 fixed the bug
<ali1234> but 1.8.4 is in saucy
<slickymaster> davmor2: :D
<ali1234> maybe he got the number wrong
<ochosi> who got the wrong number?
<ochosi> (i'm also on 1.8.4 and i have the bug)
<ali1234> nobody got the wrong number apparently
<ali1234> however we do something a bt different: we use "lock" not "guest session" to reproduce
<brainwash> ali1234: so any idea how to debug the gtk theme problem? delaying the launch of xfdesktop fixes it for me 100%, usually it fails like 75% directly after login
<ali1234> ugh... no
<ali1234> probably need to fix the order things get launched by xfsession
<ali1234> i did reproduce it btw
<brainwash> but how?
<ali1234> even though xfdesktop has a huge delay already here
<ali1234> make it run xfsettingsd or whatever before xfdesktop
<brainwash> ahh
<brainwash> before or after?
<ali1234> whatever thing is missing
<ali1234> before?
<brainwash> before sounds like the normal behavior
<ali1234> i dunno.... i haven't looked into it at all
<ali1234> and i have more bugs queued ... like https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10384
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10384 in General ""Always on top" windows steal focus after notification is displayed." [Normal,New]
<ali1234> that one is really annoying
<brainwash> but it's a new problem since xfdesktop 4.11
<ali1234> well yes... 4.11 has lots of changes
<ali1234> may also be related to realizing the window without displaying it, though i don't see how
<brainwash> just got a nice idea, how about letting the desktop icons blend in smoothly? as of now they pop in instantly
<brainwash> guess I'll file a wishlist report
<brainwash> the actual problem is that xfdesktop might start delayed and therefore the desktop icons are shown after a small time frame after login
<brainwash> I would consider this a sort of "flicker"
<ochosi> bluesabre: wanna merge ali1234's greeter branch?
<bluesabre> ali1234: would you consider your lightdm-gtk-greeter branch merge-ready?
<ochosi> ::)
<ali1234> yes
<ochosi> then let's get on with that
<ali1234> but make sure not to pull the -debug one by accident
<ochosi> yeah, or you could file a merge-request ;)
<ali1234> i'll do that
<bluesabre> :)
<ali1234> i want to rename the branch anyway
<ochosi> good :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: merged, positioning, hotkeys, and xembed branches from kalgasnik
<ochosi> what, there was a "merged" branch too? ;)
<ochosi> thanks bluesabre 
<bluesabre> :(
<ochosi> looking forward to tomorrow's build of the daily package
<bluesabre> looks like he is working on a new branch too
<ochosi> maybe we should do a point-release or something
<bluesabre> users_switching
<ali1234> MR done
<ali1234> i think i know what causes this lightdm bug too
<bluesabre> ali1234: merged
<bluesabre> what do you think it is?
<ali1234> i think it's a race condition
<ali1234> there's a callback for when the server shuts down
<ali1234> it appears to be getting called after the new server started, so then the vt gets unref'd
<bluesabre> ah
<ochosi> hmm
<ochosi> wonder when that was introduced...
<ali1234> i see a commit which is basically "rewrite VT handling for mir", my money's on that one
<bluesabre> :)
<ali1234> but i'm not quite there yet
<ochosi> yup, sounds very probable
<ochosi> hm, systemd replacing VT consoles... at some point the kernel's job will be only to load systemd
<ali1234> ah...
<ali1234> i know exactly the bug :)
<ali1234> ochosi: at some point they'll just throw out the kernel and make systemdos
<ochosi> yeah probably :)
<ali1234> systemdos is actually pretty good name for an os
<ochosi> yeah, i was first misreading it
<ochosi> for "system dos"
<ochosi> cool name :>
<brainwash> system denial of service?
<brainwash> bad name :P
<ali1234> kids today...
<ali1234> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_DOS
<ochosi> yeah, that's the one i meant
<ali1234> ochosi, brainwash: please test http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/lightdm/vt-double-unref-fix/revision/1847
<ali1234> also anyone else with corruption :)
<ali1234> do not make install with this - you must build a deb, or it will mess up your system
<ochosi> wanna just throw this in a PPA?
<ali1234> you can do... hopefully it gets merged
<ali1234> the fix is really simple and obvious when you know where to look
<ali1234> for easy testing just do "debuild" and then copy or symlink the built lightdm
<ali1234> works for me anyway :)
<ali1234> i'm gonna MR it
<ochosi> micahg, mr_pouit, bluesabre, knome and everyone else, these are ubuntu's gtk3 plans for this cycle: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2013-November/004343.html
<ochosi> my 2cents: our themes are already supporting gtk3.10, so we're safe here. and they're trying to get better support for some gnome3.10 apps (e.g. evince) back to non-gnome DEs, which is good for us
<ochosi> also they'll think about CSD patches, but we'll see whether that'll help us too
<micahg> ochosi: I think that's all fine
<ochosi> yeah, me too
<ochosi> i just felt i'll update you since i hang out in #ubuntu-desktop more these days
<ochosi> micahg: while you're around, feel like quickly packaging the indicator-plugin? =)
<micahg> not around for too long today, might be able to tomorrow night
<ochosi> bluesabre: shall we do a -dev release of the greeter at some point in the near future?
<ochosi> slickymaster, jjfrv8: i've almost cleaned up the staging site after this spam-attack, as we've locked it down now, feel free to commence with xfdesktop whenever you have time
<slickymaster> ochosi: got it
<slickymaster> jjfrv8: ping me when you'll have a chance
<slickymaster> ochosi: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/ ins not yet available for Trusty as far as I can see
<ochosi> slickymaster: oh, hm :/ will have to talk to mr_pouit or micahg then to update that PPA
<slickymaster> either that or I'll setup a new box with saucy
<ochosi> well might take them a bit to update the PPA
<slickymaster> no worries I'll prepare a box with saucy, never mind that
<ochosi> ok great
<ochosi> but anyway, that PPA needs to support saucy (at least for xfwm4)
<ochosi> other components will land in saucy anyway
<slickymaster> yeah, you're right
<slickymaster> bbl
<ali1234> ochosi: about gtk 3.10 & themes... how does that work with the CSD?
<ali1234> do they pick up the metacity themes automatically somehow?
<ali1234> so do we require themes that have both xfwm4 & metacity compatibility?
<ali1234> and if so... do shimmer themes actually have that?
<ochosi> ali1234: no, the CSD are drawn entirely by Gtk
<ochosi> but yeah, our themes have metacity support too
<ochosi> in case someone wants to use compiz
<ali1234> ok, but something has to tell them what they are supposed to look like...
<ochosi> yeah, our themes do
<ochosi> we have support for it already in saucy
<ali1234> so there's a new, third, way to define what window decorations look like?
<ochosi> yeah, i can link you to the css code if you like
<ali1234> heh... not really
<ochosi> basically it is an undecorated window
<ochosi> with the top bar (=gtkheaderbar) holding a close-button and potentially more
<ali1234> but it means maintaining three versions of every theme now?
<ochosi> no, it's integrated
<ochosi> it doesn't hurt to have it defined
<ali1234> but it has to be kept in sync with the metacity theme and the xfwm4 theme
<ochosi> it's just an additional feature of our themes, doesn't obstruct anything else
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> although that isn't hard, as we've initially created the three in sync
<ochosi> and CSD use gtk colors anyway
<ochosi> it's only a few lines, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/blob/master/gtk-3.0/gtk-widgets.css#L3424
<ali1234> not if the other themes are complicated...
<ochosi> the problem with CSD in xfce seems to be that somehow those gnome-apps don't inform the window-manager that they should be displayed undecorated
<ochosi> and i'm a bit afraid that ubuntu will get some patch done for compiz, but we'll have to find a solution for ourselves
<ali1234> well if that happens i'll port it
<ali1234> but i doubt it will work that way
<ali1234> far more likely: they make an environment setting to turn it off, like scrollbars and global menu
<ochosi> hm, not sure whether there's a fallback mode for the CSD
<ali1234> how can there not be? it doesn't do anything
<ochosi> well it would mean re-arranging some parts of the app
<ochosi> i mean UI parts
<ochosi> from the gtkheaderbar to something else, i suppose a toolbar
<ali1234> the best hedge is still to just find some other apps
<ochosi> what is a bit annoying is that it re-introduces inconsistency...
<ochosi> hm, i haven't found a good evince-replacement yet
<ochosi> it really is the part of gnome i currently wouldnt like to drop
<ochosi> i might get something done on the file-roller-replacement front (reviving squeeze)
<ochosi> anyway, they said they'll probably patch evince to fit into the rest of the apps for 14.04
<ali1234> can you just style the CSD to be 0px?
<ochosi> no, it's a whole bar
<ochosi> have you seen it before?
<ali1234> yes
<ali1234> i mean 0px high
<ali1234> i just make it go away
<ochosi> well, what would then happen to the functionality/buttons?
<ali1234> it would break
<ochosi> yeah, or go missing
<ali1234> and it would be just tough
<ochosi> :)
<ali1234> what functionality is in the CSD anyway?
<ali1234> afaik it's just a close button
<ali1234> which would be re-added by the window manager
<ochosi> well, the functionality depends on the app
<ali1234> yeah
<ali1234> so in that case the best way to deal with it is to make apps that use it and don't provide a fallback break, and then let the app developers deal with that
<ochosi> i mean it would be interesting to know whether the gtkheaderbar can simply be used with a decoration and the close-button be hidden
<ochosi> well so far there aren't many apps that affect our default install
<ochosi> evince is the only one i think
<ali1234> is it even going to happen this cycle?
<ochosi> not sure
<ochosi> and if it would, i'm not sure ubuntu folks would sync it
<ochosi> they're also quite sceptical of CSD and the stuff they introduce
<ali1234> quite right.
<ali1234> how does CSD handle this case? the app freezes and stops accepting input: how do you close the window? xkill?
<ochosi> hm, i guess wayland would have to handle that somehow
<ochosi> cause the client can't help itself anymore and is alone in the solitary world of wayland
<ochosi> no window-manager to talk to
<ali1234> right. wayland is a crap idea all round really
<ochosi> imo, CSD is mainly a reaction to wayland
<ochosi> or, to be exact: it's a prerequisite in a way
<ochosi> the design of wayland says that clients should decorate their own windows
<ali1234> except it isn't: wayland compositors can do SSD if they want
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> the fun thing is that i still remember the presentation 2,5 years ago (almost 3 now) at fosdem where kristian hÃ¸gsgard talked about CSD
<ochosi> the first question from the audience was: well, wouldn't that open the door to inconsistency?
<ochosi> and he was like "yeah, humm..."
<knome> there is always inconsistency in this imperfect world
<ochosi> and the follow up was about the fact that not even QT and GTK could settle on where to put the OK | Cancel buttons in windows
<ali1234> that whole talk was like "look at how bad X11 is. yeah i know i wrote most of it. sorry. but this time we'll get it right, promise"
<ochosi> yeah, then again, X doesn't seem that bad
<ali1234> it really isn't, unless you're trying to make an android-style UI with all animations and very little actual functionality beyond playing video and webpages
<ochosi> knome: sure, but leaving something like where and how to integrate something like a "window-close" button takes me back to the windows days, where each app looked and behaved differently...
<knome> i guess...
<ali1234> and they still do
<ochosi> man, ubuntu wiki crapping out on me again...
<knome> what do you mean by again?
<knome> did you mean: still
<knome> btw, meh, i might have some downtime on internet connectivity next month
<ali1234> all nokia's windows software is QT now and has a completely custom skin that looks a bit like OS X, but not really. and it's incredibly slow, and when it freezes (which it does all the time) you can't close or minimize it or anything
<knome> ali1234, isn't that going a bit offtopic for this channel? :)
<ali1234> no. it's what happens when you allow CSD
<ali1234> if this catches on i will start writing belligerent software that always looks different to your desktop, no matter how you have configured it
<ochosi> knome: hehe
<knome> sounds like a constructive way to react to work others did
<ochosi> knome: well i'm updating the submissions page with some instructions on how to submit
<knome> ochosi, fyi, i have Xubuntu/.* subscribed ;)
<ochosi> yeah, i know
<ochosi> this was more an: review if you want ;)
<ochosi> (=an invite for review)
<knome> i'll let you know if you did anything stupid ;)
<ochosi> ;)
<Unit193> ochosi: Tip, do what I do, set everything as a minor change. ;)
<knome> Unit193, tip: i'll get the notifications anyway
<ochosi> yeah, i saw that last time i set something as minor change
<knome> woot,
<knome> all ever finland-released donald duck comics on a website
<ochosi> hope these step-by-step instructions will help ppl to get it done
<knome> oh wait, this is ot
<knome> err, devel
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> ali1234: hm, so what about that panel-preset app we talked about recently?
<ali1234> well, i thought about it
<ali1234> it needs careful UI design
<ali1234> we don't want to trash somebody's careful set up panel
<ochosi> well, as long as we make a backup of it...
<ali1234> actually implementing the backend should be simple
<ali1234> yeah but backups can get overwritten if you run it twice...
<astraljava> Not if you make each of them unique.
<ali1234> then you need a big list of all backups
<knome> or save anything from the last 24 hours.
<ali1234> it's not impossible but someone has to think about it and design a UI
<knome> and allow users to "save" configurations
<ochosi> i think keeping *one* backup is best
<ochosi> and then additionally allowing saves
<astraljava> Hmm... well it's just a list of files, and maybe timestamps. How could that be a huge one?
<ochosi> astraljava: well what blows is that you can't really easily show a "preview", so you'll never know what you get
<ali1234> just make a screenshot
<astraljava> That might be true.
<knome> sure, but the backups aren't mean to be used unless you fail
<ochosi> ali1234: you mean automatically each time a configuration is loaded?
<ali1234> no, each time one is saved
<ali1234> in the save file
<ochosi> sounds fancy
<ali1234> it's easy
<knome> well that might make it a bit larger
<ochosi> yeah, but not by much
<ochosi> the screenshot can be scaled down to 256x256
<knome> a square?
<ali1234> well it might make the presets 10x bigger, but they'd still only be like 100k
<ochosi> if it's fullsize, you can't easily browse a list of those :)
<knome> no
<ochosi> knome: just tossing around numbers
<ali1234> you ony show one at a time
<ochosi> ok, i'll fire up inkscape and see what i can come up with
<knome> i'm wondering how useful a small preview for the panel layout is
<ochosi> for the presets we could do illustrations
<ochosi> that could be useful
<knome> especially if you have say 2 full-hd monitors and then we push that into 256 px wide image...
<knome> illustrations?
<slickymaster> good night all
<ochosi> well symbolic ways of showing the panel layout
<knome> ultimately i think we should allow people to change the images in the saved sets
<ochosi> that shouldn't be too hard
<knome> not necessarily by UI, but should be easily done by editing files
<ali1234> the "preset" would just be a .tgz with a xml file and a jpg inside...
<knome> ali1234, that works for my purposes
<ali1234> the xml would be identical to what you see in the xfce configuration dirs
<knome> yep, makes sense
<knome> +1 for creating such an app.
<ochosi> hm, i'm wondering: if you take a preset, e.g. "gnome2", then you modify it by adding the weather plugin
<ochosi> that wouldn't be the preset anymore, but become a new layout the next time you open the app
<knome> yes
<knome> it should be:
<ochosi> so somehow it has to detect that change
<knome> gnome2 (modified)
<knome> diff
<knome> or just saying "custom" is fine
<ali1234> that might be tricky without blacklisting certain keys
<ali1234> cos some stuff always changes
<ochosi> well, we could always keep a "current" item in the list
<knome> current works
<ochosi> so if you apply the gnome2 preset, it simply becomes "current"
<knome> yep, sounds fine
<ochosi> only question is what happens to whatever used to be current before
<knome> dump it if it ain't saved.
<ochosi> or make it the backup
<knome> well actually
<ochosi> and dump the backup each time the current gets moved to backup
<knome> i don't think there should be a "current" item
<knome> just a "load layout" list and "save current layout"
<knome> because if there is a "current" item, wouldn't that be always selected?
<ochosi> hm true
<knome> (unless we allowed to undo until you closed the app)
<ochosi> that would simplify things greatly
<knome> so eg. you choose gnome2
<knome> and that's shown as the selected item
<ali1234> heh... i just found the easter egg in xfce-panel
<ochosi> ali1234: tik-tak-toe?
<ochosi> :)
<knome> but ultimately, i think showing "current" is just redundant
<ochosi> yeah i guess
<knome> there could be "last saved"
<ochosi> well if you save, you will have to give it a name
<knome> if we saved the layout every time you shut down or sth
<knome> yep.
<ochosi> ali1234: what can we do about checking what plugins are needed and which ones might be missing?
<ali1234> not much - but if they're missing they just won't show up in the panel
<ochosi> hmkay
<knome> i think that's fine
<knome> just tell the user they might be missing items if they have removed necessary packages
<ochosi> yeah, i think the whole thing loses its meaning if we restrict ourselves to internal plugins..
<ali1234> i;m only using internal + places + indicators
<knome> yep
<ochosi> we should make sure to install all needed ones by default
<knome> ochosi, "needed" ?:)
<ochosi> well, needed for the presets we ship
<ali1234> we can try to install packages with consolekit, but that'sa bit more involved
<knome> sure.
<ochosi> let's start with the simple version
<ali1234> (like gstreamer does for codecs)
<ochosi> yeah, in fact that doesn't work too well )
<knome> i don't think we should worry about probing what layout somebody is using, or what applets are installed
<knome> at least, not in the first version, as ochosi said
<ali1234> well, version 1.0 is going to be "write some code that can add and delete panels at all"
<ochosi> yup
<knome> ali1234, when do you have a PoC? ;)
<ali1234> what language for this?
<ochosi> so the UI will be a listview and a load/save button..?
<ochosi> i guess that's up to you
<knome> yep, if you write it, you decide
<ochosi> but whatever works well with xfconf i guess
<knome> just argument well ;)
<ali1234> well, it will be either python or C then, depending on which i can get working more easily
<knome> since xfce is in C (as you most probably know), that could be preferred.
<ochosi> at least if we wanna push it upstream...
<ali1234> i'll probably do a python version just to get familiar with the API, then rewrite it in C
<ochosi> sweet
<ochosi> ali1234: so do you actually need a mockup now?
<ali1234> no
<ochosi> or at all, at this stage
<ali1234> no UI on 1.0...
<ochosi> yup
<ali1234> ok, jfyi the idea of copying over the xml and restarting the panel and settings daemon doesn't work at all
<ochosi> ali1234: how come?
<ali1234> for some reason the settings are saved somewhere else
<ochosi> weird
<ali1234> even if you kill the panel and the settingsd, delete the xml, and then restart everything... panel is unchanged
<ochosi> i was pretty sure it's all in the xml in the xfconf-per-channel folder
<ali1234> it is
<ali1234> but it just keeps coming back somehow
<ochosi> well deleting the xml is probably not the ideal approach
<ochosi> maybe it has a cache or something
<ochosi> or a backup of sorts
<ali1234> must do
<ochosi> that's actually quite good to know :)
<ali1234> we could fork off xfconf-query...
<ali1234> it has all the apis
<ali1234> unless we need to go through specific panel apis, that is
<ali1234> here's a crazy idea...
<ali1234> what if we put presets into the "new panel" button
<ali1234> so instead of just making an empty panel, it offers you stuff like "Gnome 2 style top panel"
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> that'd be awesome
<ochosi> pretty cool idea
<ali1234> that way we don't need to back up user's panel
<ochosi> i mean you can't save panels that way
<ali1234> well, maybe you can
<ochosi> but it's still a quite sweet idea
<knome> well you can save panels but backing up the configuration
<knome> that could work.
<ochosi> ali1234: what sucks a bit is that the wrapper3 branch still hasn't been merged to master yet in the xfce-panel
<ochosi> although nick said he would look at that soonish
<ochosi> i guess the changes you proposed don't conflict with the changes of that branch
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-30
<ali1234> sorry i got distracted there
<ali1234> i don't think i proposed any changes in the panel (yet)
<ochosi> mr_pouit, micahg, bluesabre, knome: good news everyone, the wrapper3 branch (enabling gtk3 plugins to run in xfce-panel) was finally merged! http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/log/
<ochosi> so from now on we can at least say we ship the panel from git ;)
<ochosi> but: gtk3 has to be enabled in our packages, it's not enabled by default
<ochosi> ali1234: that might also interest you ^
<brainwash> ali1234: lightdm vt fix applied and it works, no corruption
<ochosi> brainwash: nice!
<ochosi> very good to hear that
<ochosi> so light-locker also works properly for you now?
<brainwash> yes, but I still prefer a solution without vt switching :P
<ochosi> phew, finally things are falling into place :)
<brainwash> most users will like the new lock mechanic
<brainwash> I think
<ochosi> yeah, i hope so too
<ochosi> it'll be more consistent, despite the VT-switching
<brainwash> currently xfdesktop wait for xfwm4 to launch first and get ready, so the icons do pop up rather late, any thoughts on this?
<ochosi> not sure, i mean there's always the question of what to load when...
<ochosi> since things are more modular in xfce than in gnome, it's harder to do the perfect solution i think
<ochosi> gotta get ready for dinner now, bbl
<brainwash> ah right, we need to test all the components one by one too
<brainwash> to see if they still work stand alone
<brainwash> like replacing xfdesktop with nautilus
<brainwash> or using another greeter
<jjfrv8> ochosi, thanks for cleaning up the dokuwiki site
<jjfrv8> ochosi, just wondering though, did you mean to delete the xfdestkop preferences section?
<jjfrv8> clear
<ali1234> ochosi: i don't like the VT switching. it makes my music stop playing when the screen saver starts
<bluesabre> ^ that is the single most annoying part about light-locker
<ochosi> actually it doesn't stop the music
<ochosi> at least not here
<ochosi> it just gives it a little hickup
<ochosi> jjfrv8: oops, did i? i guess there were so many spam pages that i might've deleted one too many then...
<ochosi> jjfrv8: will restore it unless you've already done so
<jjfrv8> hey, ochosi. No I haven't restored it. I wasn't sure how you copied the stuff over from xfec.
<jjfrv8> *xfce
<ochosi> simple copy-paste from the source
<ochosi> so it's an easy restore anyway
<jjfrv8> ok. I'll try that.
<ochosi> ok, cool
<ochosi> if it doesn't work, lemme know and i'll handle it
<jjfrv8> all better now :)
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> ali1234, bluesabre: apart from the fact that my music/videos continue playing when light-locker starts, you can also disable time-based locking, solely use X11's screensaver and lock your session by hand
<ochosi> usually when you have music playing, there's no need to lock your session, unless the thieve is in your house or you're in a library or public place that is very liberal wrt noise
<ochosi> thief, i meant
<jjfrv8> ochosi, i created a screenshot standardization document similar to the one I did for parole: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=playground:sceenshot-stds-xfdesktop
<jjfrv8> can you check it out and see if everything looks right?
<ochosi> jjfrv8: perfect!
<ochosi> that's exactly how it should look
<ochosi> not sure you read that in the backlog, but i mentioned a short while ago, that we should add <note></note> for stuff that is new in 4.12
<ochosi> so that the docs stay somewhat backward-compatible
<ochosi> and ppl can easily see "what they miss"
<ochosi> i don't know what the general plan is, i guess they will try to keep the docs working for 4.8, 4.10 and 4.12
<jjfrv8> ochosi, yes, I did see that mention about the notes in the backlog so I'll keep it in mind.
<ochosi> great
<ochosi> but feel free to improve on the wording if you see room for it
<ochosi> current docs aren't the wholy grail or something ;)
<ochosi> s/wholy/holy/
<jjfrv8> :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: as a fellow user of plank, should we try to support docks like that by patching our default apps' desktop-files to have some quicklist-support? (i mean for those where it'd work easily, e.g. gmusicbrowser
<ochosi> jjfrv8: just one note wrt the screenshot: i'd try to keep the size (in this case: the width) at a useful minimum
<jjfrv8> I meant to ask you about that. I shrank it as far as it would go.
<jjfrv8> it doesn't resize as small as the 4.10 version seems to.
<bluesabre> ochosi, when the VT is switched it kills all audio
<bluesabre> and yeah, giving some basic plank/unity support for some app might not be a bad idea :)
<ochosi> jjfrv8: ah true, that is actually a problem of the not-visible tab with the wallpapers i guess... so not your fault but mine, sorry
<ochosi> bluesabre: not here, gmusicbrowser or parole continue to play
<ochosi> even youtube keeps roaring
<bluesabre> really, when you are at the login/lock screen?
<ochosi> yeah
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> doesn't do that for me :D
<ochosi> weird
<ochosi> i wonder how my setup differs
<brainwash> ochosi: stops for me, but that's the expected behavior
<ochosi> interesting
<knome> ochosi, cool
<ochosi> ali1234: to pick that up from yesterday, so how did you imagine the panel presets to work exactly?
<ali1234> i don't know. it depends on how the api for changing them looks
<ochosi> one problem i see with how i understood your version of integrating it to the "add panel" button is the fact that e.g. gnome2 adds *2* panels
<ochosi> so it'd actually not just add a new panel, but replace your current panels too to make sense
<ochosi> ali1234: do you wanna give the ochosi/tabwin branch of xfwm4 some testing?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-12-01
<ali1234> ok
<ochosi> it also installs a new xfconf property "cycle_tabwin_mode" with which you can switch between the normal view (0) and the list view (1)
<ali1234> so where's the branch?
<ochosi> in git.xfce
<ochosi> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/log/?h=ochosi/tabwin
<ali1234> well the first thing i notice is that when i mouse over the tabwin two things look selected, which is confusing
<ali1234> i created "cycle_tabwin_conf" but it doesn't work
<ochosi> well themes will take care of that
<ochosi> e.g. if you use the tabwin-branch of greybird, you'll see a different hover-color between the mouse and keyboard selection
<ochosi> (a meaningful difference i think)
<ochosi> ali1234: but i said "cycle_tabwin_mode", not conf
<ali1234> still doesn't work
<ochosi> i had to build with --prefix=/usr and install it
<knome> pleia2, ping me when you're around
<knome> hey elfy 
<elfy> hi knome 
<knome> elfy, got your mail. i'll read it after i've de- and reassembled a shelf and then i'll PM you
<elfy> lol
<elfy> no rush - if you rush you'll lose a screw ;)
<knome> heh, no screws included in the task
<knome> but i'm stuck nonetheless, i have no idea how i should disassemble that
<knome> or should i say, no ikea
<knome> ;)=
<elfy> I'll lend you this - disassembles most things ... http://eagleapex.com/wp-content/uploads/IMG_7175.JPG
<knome> hah, yeah, though the idea is to use that shelf after i've disassembled it...
<pleia2> knome: morning
<knome> good day pleia2 :)
<knome> now if i only remember what it was...
<pleia2> hehe
<ochosi> elfy: could you please review/test these new instructions and if they work, please send another email to the ML about the new page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators
<elfy> lol - I was just typing a question out about that ... 
<ochosi> hope we can get someone to copy all the different packages to a single PPA soon
<elfy> I'll look tomorrow at that lot 
<ochosi> and actually the indicator-plugin would be nice if it were also in a PPA finally
<ochosi> micahg: could you help with "consolidating" these instructions? (i.e. copy lionel's packages to your PPA or to a new PPA together with libxfce4ui and ideally also the indicator-plugin) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators
<elfy> ochosi: one question - will I be able to just do that and it work over what I've got here already? that is the gtk3 stuff installed from the previous wiki version?
<ochosi> you can uninstall the panel (simply go to the folder you installed it from and run "sudo make uninstall"), same for libxfce4ui
<ochosi> then add the PPAs from step1 and run step2 and you should be fine
<elfy> ok
<ochosi> hey Noskcaj 
<Noskcaj> hey ochosi 
<Noskcaj> can someone help me fix a build issue in gthumb? Some extensions aren't getting installed
<Noskcaj> https://mentors.debian.net/package/gthumb
<ochosi> Noskcaj: if you're out of work ever, you could help with "consolidating" packages in a single PPA for testers: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators
<ochosi> currently there's one pkg in micahg's ppa and one in mr_pouit's ppa
<ochosi> )and one is still missing)
<Noskcaj> i've got to put some symbols in the flac package, then i'll do that
<ali1234> ochosi: have a loot at this: https://github.com/ali1234/panel-switch
<ali1234> the DBus interface for xfconf is quite simple
<ali1234> the most complicated thing is dealing with the GVariant type
<ali1234> this code doesn't deal with it, but it almost works
<ali1234> it's just that it turns everything like int, bool, array into type string - which breaks the panel really bad
<ali1234> but in general this way should work
<ali1234> it also needs to kill the panel before doing the load
<ali1234> (if you run load.py it will delete your panel config btw)
<Noskcaj> ochosi, What are the PPA i should be looking at?
<knome> Noskcaj, doesn't the wikipage you were pasted tell that?
<Noskcaj> whoops, didn't see that page
<Noskcaj> I think all the gtk3 stuff should be in a ~xubuntu-dev PPA, so i'll leave this for someone else
<ali1234> it probably would be if it was packaged
<ali1234> the indicator plugin still lacks a working package anywhere
<Noskcaj> ali1234, Would the 2.1.0 release be enough?
<ali1234> of indicator-plugin?
<Noskcaj> yeah
<ali1234> no, we need master
<knome> elfy, heh, so, i'm ready with the disassembling now
<knome> elfy, (and reassembling)
<knome> elfy, let me read those pads first and then get back to you
<knome> elfy, are you around?
<elfy> for a short while still
<knome> ok, cool
<knome> i'll PM
<elfy> ok
<ochosi> andrzejr: hey there! would you mind doing another point-release of the indicator plugin? that'd help us quite a bit with testing (we can also use git master though, not sure what your current release-policy is)
<ochosi> heh, well that's also an answer :)
<elfy> LOL
<ochosi> ali1234: i'll take a look at your panel-config repo now
<ochosi> so isn't there a way you can querey the type of the properties?
<ochosi> very nice though, the code is still quite short
<ochosi> andrzejr: i guess you missed my comment from before, just ping me whenever you're around
<andrzejr> ochosi, ping
<ochosi> andrzejr: pong
<ochosi> i wanted to ask you, would you mind doing another point-release of the indicator plugin?
<ochosi> it'd help us with testing it (although our testers can arguably also test with git-master)
<ochosi> not sure what your release-policy/model is at the moment, but without the latest changes in git, it doesn't properly work for the current indicators
<andrzejr> ochosi, I'm doing it now (I have seen Nosckcaj's question). I was waiting for necessary changes to be merged into xfce4-panel master (ideally, with a development release but that may take some time)
<ochosi> ah, cool
<ochosi> yeah, makes sense
<ochosi> i'm very happy nick merged it...
<andrzejr> release already in git, now making preparing an announcement
<ochosi> thanks a lot!
<andrzejr> done
<ochosi> nice, already received the release-mail
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-24
<ochosi> (late) morning everyone
<sidi-valencia> morning
<bluesabre> quick hello to everyone!
<bluesabre> dkessel: is this a good direction for the naming conventions?  if yes, I'll do a release tonight with the fixes http://paste.ubuntu.com/9212668/
<bluesabre> have a good day everyone!
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<knome> naming convention looks good to me
<bluesabre> did you know there is actually a GtkSearchEntry widget? :O
<bluesabre> https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkSearchEntry.html
<bluesabre> who knew? :D
<bluesabre> anyhoo, first day of new job! bbl
<knome> heh, congrats
<knome> learning a lot or just very lost? ;)
<ochosi> bluesabre: nice, congrats and have fun!
<dkessel> bluesabre: looks gold!
<elfy> can't update the locate database with catfish in livesession anymore 
<elfy> want's a password :)
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> bluesabre: awesome :D bug 1395720
<ubottu> bug 1395720 in catfish (Ubuntu) "authentication in livesession accepts any value as password" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1395720
<ochosi> elfy: if you log out from the live-session or lock the session, can you login with any password too?
<elfy> checking
<elfy> ochosi: what's the username? thought it was Xubuntu
<ochosi> not sure, maybe ubuntu
<elfy> can't log back in 
<elfy> nvm
<elfy> xubuntu - no password
<elfy> using a password fails 
<elfy> pkexec thunar launches fine without password in live
<elfy> there was a recentish update to catfish - I know that it worked last time I looked in a livesession
<ochosi> hmm, i thought catfish was also using pkexec now
<ochosi> anyway, bluesabre will know
<elfy> yup
<elfy> not sure we'd want people to run catfish as root personally 
<elfy> there's not a catfish policy 
<elfy> anyway - I'll read what bluesabre says tomorrow morning when piskie's been nosy overnight
<ochosi> yup
<sidi> ochosi, unsure how these thingies are coded. am busier than expected because i have a visitor this week but ill make screenshots soon for the apps I have here :-)
<sidi> greybird themed ofc
<ochosi> sidi: errm, you lost me there, which thingies and which screenshots?
<sidi> oh sorry
<sidi> long irc backlog
<sidi> the doc website
<sidi> how the templates are implemented
<sidi> thingies, a very specific word indeed.
<elfy> I use it often - also it's sister term - thingummy 
<sidi> i like that
<elfy> :)
<elfy> sidi: and for people silly enough to ask me "What's that?" It's always a whimwham for grinding smoke
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> sidi: well i can only tell you what i would expect...
<ochosi> have a header part coded into every docs page by default with a fallback image
<ochosi> and if there's an image with the name "header-image.jpg" or something in that namespace, it'll use that instead of the default
<ochosi> so that it doesn't clutter the simple wiki style of the pages
<ochosi> sidi: i guess knome knows best how these "thingies" work ;)
<knome> whaz?
<ochosi> knome: sidi wants a fancy header for the xfce online docs (dokuwiki)
<knome> aha
<ochosi> and now he's sneaking out of the work by saying he has visitory
<ochosi> visitors
<knome> it's time since i've poked dokuwiki, but... get me server access and i'll fix it :P
<knome> hah, bad excuses
<habhatti> hello 
<knome> the excuse last night was "my gf is here"
<knome> hello habhatti 
<ochosi> knome: btw, i've to run off in 30mins and won't be back in time for the meeting â sorry :(
<knome> huhu: P
<sidi> knome, ochosi yeah my gf is here
<sidi> i expected her to come later so no late night hacking this week :P
<knome> guess it'll just be a quick meeting then
<slickymasterWork> girlfriend situation is untouchable 
<habhatti> By the way, have any of you encountered chromium giving constant errors on resuming 14.04?
<ochosi> knome: if there's anything you want me to comment on beforehands, i can do that now
<knome> not really i think
<knome> but fwiw, i've been working on the responsive design for xubuntu.org today
<knome> it's almost ready in terms of the "big lines"
<sidi> knome, oh is the Xfce doc site fixed or responsive?
<sidi> what should be the min-max ranges for the headers?
<knome> i've no idea.
<habhatti> responsive nice
<ochosi> knome: cool!
<habhatti> xubuntu.org's wordpress isn't it?
<ochosi> yup
 * habhatti nods.
<slickymasterWork> elfy, step 12 of the last section of http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/327/builds/82959/testcases/1557/results 
<slickymasterWork> can you please confirm it since I'm not getting that
<slickymasterWork> and before I raise a bug
<slickymasterWork> damn thing
<knome> hah
<knome> now now
<slickymasterWork> elfy, not sure if you saw my ping :P
<slickymasterWork> once again I got TTL
<elfy> slickymasterWork: save as?
<slickymasterWork> yes, that step
<elfy> yea it saves
<slickymasterWork> I'm not getting it. Mousepad simply saves the file and closes
<elfy> but I'm using staging mousepad
<slickymasterWork> this is in a fully updated vivid image (2014-11-24)
<elfy> I'll boot live and check there
<elfy> slickymasterWork: yea mines updated - but I have staging ppa
<slickymasterWork> just ti be sure and not raising a bug for closing afterwards 
<slickymasterWork> s/ti/to
<elfy> yep - understood 
 * slickymasterWork will wait for elfy's move
<elfy> slickymasterWork: works in livesession - local to you perhaps, remove the mousepad confs and try again maybe 
<slickymasterWork> nopes elfy, it's not related to ~/.config/Mousepad
<slickymasterWork> removed it, rebooted, and still not getting a 'Save as' dialog in step 12
<elfy> *shrug* not reproducible here or in live session
<slickymasterWork> mousepad simply does a  plain old save and closes
<elfy> oic 
<slickymasterWork> what do you think of raising the bug anyway and see if there's any feedback
<elfy> not really taking a lot of notice - yea - saves
<slickymasterWork> at least jjfrv8 will potentially see it ^^^ 
<jjfrv8> I did :)
<slickymasterWork> lol, hi jack
<slickymasterWork> and double check it
<slickymasterWork> are you getting the 'sava as' dialog jjfrv8?
<slickymasterWork> sae also
 * slickymasterWork sigh
<jjfrv8> nope, I'm seeing what you're seeing... I think
<slickymasterWork> s/save
<elfy> testcase wording is wrong
<elfy> it should save and close 
<slickymasterWork> ok, I'll file the bug and do a MP for you elfy, tonight
<elfy> shouldn't mention save as 
<slickymasterWork> yeaps
<slickymasterWork> agree QA lead? 
<slickymasterWork> elfy ^
<elfy> yep 
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, did you happen to see the backlog from the weekend? ochosi asked about my working on the powerman docs.
<jjfrv8> any objections?
<slickymasterWork> of course not jjfrv8, you're more than welcome
<slickymasterWork> I've been postponing those, because I've haven't manage to find the time to them
<slickymasterWork> but we can split the load, like we did before
<jjfrv8> ok, I thought I would rewrite the testcase (1582) first to familiarize myself with the new version, then look at the docs.
<slickymasterWork> yes, that's a good idea
<slickymasterWork> I've already done the Getting started section (http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfpm-docs:getting-started)
<jjfrv8> :)
<jjfrv8> bbl
<slickymasterWork> ok elfy, bug 1395787. I'll have a MP for you after dinner
<ubottu> bug 1395787 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Mousepad testcase ID 1557 needs to be corrected" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1395787
<elfy> slickymasterWork: k - no rush :)
<slickymasterWork> all righty boss
<elfy> heh
<knome> elfy, say that and he'll never file the MP ;)
<sidi> knome, "dont rush to dinner, MP first"
<knome> that's more liek it
<slickymasterWork> bah you guys
<slickymasterWork> you're nasty :P
<knome> slickymasterWork, just kidding, now go eat your dinner :P
<elfy> sounds a bit Afrikaans to me 
<knome> elfy, sounds a lot like gobbledigook to me
<elfy> :)
<sidi> gobbledigook, that sounds nordic
<sidi> are you nordic, knome?
 * sidi talks nonsense, all is fine.
<knome> sidi, yeah, finland is usually considered a nordic country :P
<slickymasterWork> elfy, another one: bug 1395796
<ubottu> bug 1395796 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Mugshot testcase ID 1627 needs to be corrected" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1395796
<elfy> slickymasterWork: ok - do them in the same mp :)
<elfy> or not 
<knome> lol
<slickymasterWork> I'll do it in the same, no need for a separated one for each 
<pleia2> http://www.unixstickers.com/tshirts/linux-and-tux-t-shirts/the-ultimate-xubuntu-linux-tshirt
<pleia2> preorder discount
<knome> bah, expensive shipping
<pleia2> oof, shipping is... yeah
<slickymasterWork> yeah :(
<knome> would be 21 euros to finland with shipping
<knome> meh
<knome> that's more than three times what the t-shirt i'mm wearing now was :P
<knome> i guess i don't really want a t-shirt!
<pleia2> well, most of my t-shirts are free ;) Ubuntu ones from Canonical aren't cheaper either
<knome> heh
<pleia2> and custom ones from zazzle aren't cheap
<knome> well, i don't usually use t-shirt with prints
<knome> blank, one-color t-shirts FTW
<pleia2> this place has nice t-shirts and ship internationally, cost is high :\
<habhatti> heh, shipping would be insane to Pakistan. :)
<knome> not sure what can be done about that if the italian post office asks for silly prices
<pleia2> habhatti: how much?
<pleia2> $12 to the US
<knome> 8/12 to finland
<pleia2> I think I'll order some random stickers along with this
<habhatti> pleia2: it's normally 60 from usa to here, courier
<knome> 14/17 to australia
<pleia2> habhatti: this is shipping from italy, I'm curious now :)
<knome> 12/17 to pakistan
<habhatti> that's not too bad
<habhatti> there's a university here I'm trying to switch to xubuntu - hmm, our students will like those
<pleia2> habhatti: we're kicking off an initiative this cycle to reward some Xubuntu testers with stickers :D
<elfy> or trying to 
<knome> well i could do with some stickers :P
<knome> so maybe i should make the incentive program happen, then test every day
<pleia2> how many did we want total?
<knome> D:
<pleia2> 20 sets of stickers?
<habhatti> pleia2: That sounds nice.
<elfy> pleia2: max 2 sets per month/ and we're done with month 1 of the cycle already
<knome> 12 per cycle
<elfy> so 10 at most for vv, 12 per cycle 
<knome> 20 would do for two cycles
<pleia2> well, I need to send some to team members too
<pleia2> like knome and elfy 
 * knome bows
<pleia2> so 20 will do, requested
<pleia2> and now, work!
<knome> hf!
<knome> (meeting in 40 mins!)
<pleia2> k
<knome> looks like a short one
<pleia2> I have some things to talk about
<habhatti> thank you so much for your hard work, you're putting a lot of life into old machines here
<pleia2> habhatti: that's always wonderful to hear!
<knome> pleia2, uh oh ;)
<knome> !team | Meeting time!
<ubottu> Meeting time!: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<pleia2> o/
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 24 17:59:56 2014 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<knome> #chair pleia2 
<meetingology> Current chairs: knome pleia2
<knome> i'll get a mouse and then we can start
<skellat> o/
<elfy> hi
<pleia2> mice are important for Xubuntu meetings
<skellat> Indeed
 * pleia2 has a vervet
<knome> #topic Open action items
<knome> bluesabre did improbe widget naming
<knome> knome has completed the QA processes change but needs to send it out to the list
<knome> #action knome to send a proposal for the QA process to the -devel ML
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to send a proposal for the QA process to the -devel ML
<knome> exploratory testing mail is sent
<elfy> did I see the last draft?
<knome> and i've scheduled this meeting
<knome> elfy, yes, you've seen the one that's last
<elfy> k - thanks :)
<knome> i haven't integrated the last bit yet, but i got an ACK from ochosi so it's merely a small merge
<knome> so that's it for the action items
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> #info knome worked on responsive design for the website
<pleia2> #info pleia2 has been in contact with Unixstickers, they have a Xubuntu t-shirt now! http://www.unixstickers.com/tshirts/linux-and-tux-t-shirts/the-ultimate-xubuntu-linux-tshirt
 * skellat just had the electricity go out & is on emergency power for broadband uplink
 * skellat departs to start recovery
<knome> pleia2, if you are ordering one, let's see how it feels like and if it's ok, then add that to the website
<pleia2> #info Marketing blueprint for Vivid is finally filled out, discussion later this meeting https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-v-marketing
<knome> #action knome and pleia2 to update to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
<meetingology> ACTION: knome and pleia2 to update to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
<knome> to update to update?
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: ACTION
<pleia2> knome: will do, trying to get them to toss one in with the QA sticker order (I'll pay for it if needed, but same shipment would be good)
<knome> #action knome and pleia2 to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
<meetingology> ACTION: knome and pleia2 to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
<knome> pleia2, sure. i think it would be fair to use the community funds to cover that
<knome> (the shipping, that is)
<knome> let's see how it goes and if you need to pay something, run it through ochosi/team
<knome> any other team updates?
<elfy> #info QA checking and updating tests as they come up
<elfy> #info QA not much commenting done on the exploratory testing idea - will mail -dev list with more details
<knome> elfy, did we set up a testcase for those reports yet?
<elfy> a seperate one? 
<knome> yes, since exploratory testing doesn't really fit in the "do X, Y, Z" mindset
<elfy> (s)
<knome> or did we decide not to file one
<knome> err, to set up one :P
<elfy> I don't see much point tbh 
<knome> ack
<knome> i'm fine with that
<elfy> there ARE places for people to report 
<knome> yep
<knome> any other updates or shall we move on?
<elfy> I'm done
<knome> let's move on then
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> not really an announcement, but similar in nature... there has been some activity going on to awake the xfce team
<knome> if you are willing to help there (as well), see https://wiki.xfce.org/people
<pleia2> oh yes, I should social media their links now that it's a weekday
<pleia2> re: surveys
<knome> basically, we've signed up the xubuntu team in QA; not meaning we'll do all xfce QA
<elfy> nice to be consulted
<knome> but to tell the team that we are available if they need help
<knome> since we have a pretty large userbase
<pleia2> cool
<knome> so, until they ask for anything, we don't need to do anything :)
<knome> (unless we want to)
<knome> elfy, and of course that'll go through the xubuntu procedure, and we'll only do testing when it makes any sense to us
<knome> so no worries! :)
<elfy> well given that - I've got something to say I think
<knome> sure, go ahead
<elfy> I'm done, I'm losing interest rapidly
<pleia2> :(
<elfy> I'll carry on for this cycle - but I'll not be doing it again
<pleia2> is it just lack of testers?
<elfy> when it comes to milestones I'll not be spending hours of my time to make sure everything gets tested
<knome> elfy, sad to hear that - and if there is anything we can do to help you get motivated, let us know
<elfy> so if there's not enough done I will say that we need to not release said milestones
<habhatti> hmm
<knome> to me, that sounds fair, and maybe we should have done that already when any single person did most of the tests
<elfy> well - announcing in here that *we're* going to be helping xfce with testing without bothering to mention it to me just brought my thinking further forward than it was 
<elfy> hardly a motivating thing to hear
<pleia2> :\
 * knome shrugs
<knome> as i mentioned, it's just to let them know that we're available if they need, and we can cooperate with them at that point
<elfy> even so
<elfy> anyway - I said what I needed to - so we can move on
<knome> ok
<knome> any other announcements?
<sidi> can i have a word as a xfce person?
<pleia2> sidi: please
<sidi> for me the goal of this move is not to even ask the distros to do free QA
<sidi> but you guys especially at Xubuntu, already do testing
<sidi> and i think its clear that @xfce there is no longer any CI or testing running
<sidi> yet, we have many downstreams and cant keep up with you guys' own progress
<sidi> xub is one of the main
<sidi> along with debian and arch, which afaik do no testing
<sidi> so when you guys successfully tested some software, it's good to let us know
<sidi> when you didnt, we already believe you will file reports
<sidi> but its useful for us to know when the software was last tested
<sidi> and what is never tested, especially
<knome> as i see it, it's like a part of our regular testing routine
<knome> we use some 4.11 components already, so that's the organic testing we are running for xfce
<sidi> the only question that is really useful to the xfce devs, and especially to people like me who commit to triage some reports, is "when was this feature last working?"
<sidi> right now i need to test every bug report myself but i sometimes dont have the right setup
<sidi> if you guys for instance know that libxfce4ui features worked as expected in 10.foo.bar, and then i realise on my git arch that they dont, i can more easily trace the regression
<sidi> so there ought to be a xfce.org place where downstreams can tell us what last worked.
<sidi> it's up to you whether it's achievable or not given your workload, no pressure of course
<sidi> just wanting to avoid duplication
<knome> i totally agree with that
 * pleia2 nods
<elfy> it's certainly a laudable aim
<habhatti> makes sense
<pleia2> sidi: I think having you here will help a lot, can be easy for communication to break down as we're doing tests on our end and forget to tell Xfce
<knome> and since we file bug reports and link them to upstream too, it isn't really far off from this point
<knome> well, so far, telling xfce has been kind of hard, because people working on it have been scarce
<pleia2> yep
<knome> maybe this new project to get things going on will help with that
<sidi> pleia2, it really needs to flow down to up rather than the other way around. i'm a former xub so i know where to find you lot, but it's hard for me to keep up with all the downstreams, there even are some that i'm not aware off. you guys and girls are doing an amazing work keeping up with bug reporting and pre-triaging your users' bugs
<sidi> it'd be good to also share testing outcomes, and if you feel we cant deal with your info properly then you can suggest better ways
<sidi> Sharing test results might require that we adopt your testing framework
<sidi> to me it makes sense distros test different features/user tasks
<knome> i think the biggest thing that we need from xfce is that bug reports are actually processed, eg. fixed ;)
<sidi> i believe xfce should host a web UI for testers to report trivially
<elfy> mmm
<sidi> elfy, how do you keep track of testing results at the moment?
<elfy> frankly it's hard enough to get people to report what they do
<elfy> ~10 users last cycle reported test results
<knome> sidi, iso.qa.ubuntu.com and packages.qa.ubuntu.com
<elfy> sidi: currently http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/327/builds/82959/testcases
<sidi> testing is a PITA indeed.
<knome> we've even been improving the testing trackers so that the information is more easy to get out
<sidi> thats cool
<sidi> do you know if there is a public web API that would allow us to pull this?
<sidi> so its all the same to you but we can unify this with other downstreams who start testing?
<knome> sidi, there is some API, you should talk about that in #ubuntu-quality 
<habhatti> i signed up as a tester yesterday, the docs are very good
<sidi> knome, noted
<elfy> habhatti: I know you did \o/
 * sidi will let people continue their meetings
<sidi> thanks for the info
<knome> so anyting else under announcements?
<elfy> sidi: it's a community meeting :)
<pleia2> thanks sidi 
<knome> ok, let's move on
<knome> #topic Discussion
<pleia2> so I have a few marketing things
<knome> no items on the agenda, so anybody want to bring up something
<knome> there you go, just #subtopic it
<pleia2> #subtopic Vivid Marketing
<pleia2> I saw a talk at a conference recently about marketing open source projects, woo
<pleia2> a few things I learned:
<pleia2> 1. We need a press contact address on our website, all we have are dev and user list addresses
<pleia2> I added this to the blueprint as something to work with knome on
<knome> could that be another mailing list?
<pleia2> I dunno
<knome> for general contacts
<pleia2> I fear it would end up dead and people wouldn't post to it
<knome> directing that at anybody alone sounds bad
<pleia2> "no one uses this, must be a bad address"
<pleia2> well, I am the marketing lead
<pleia2> so I could take requests and share/respond as appropriate
<knome> if it doesn't sound like too much work for you, then ok
<elfy> pleia2: but who'd know it was *dead* ? 
<pleia2> shouldn't be
<pleia2> elfy: list archives
<knome> i guess one more idea
<elfy> surely if foo is mailing us at it - then it would be active when it needs to be?
<knome> we really should set up @xubuntu.org emails, even just aliases
<pleia2> elfy: I doubt we'll have many folks contacting us
<knome> now feel free to continue :)
<knome> make list archive private?
<knome> :P
<pleia2> but right now they don't have a great way to contact us at all
<pleia2> knome: list members only perhaps
<pleia2> aside from tweeting at us or something, which is very meh
<knome> pleia2, something like that.
<pleia2> knome: that could work
<knome> pleia2, that would work even if you are on holiday or so
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> and it would be easy enough to pass on
<pleia2> xubuntu-contact @ lists.ubuntu.com maybe?
<knome> and discussion related to the requests could be done on the list
<knome> or contacts
<pleia2> sure
<knome> and i can be a list admin too
<pleia2> ok, I can submit the request to Canonical IS to set it up
<knome> please add me as a requestor
<pleia2> will do
<knome> ta
<pleia2> alright, next thing I learned
<pleia2> 2. We should have a better idea who our users are
<pleia2> in my head, I think these are just random people who install Xubuntu on their personal machines, but I routinely bump into all kinds of developers and interesting people using Xubuntu for work at conferences
<habhatti> web dev here, switched because of unity
<pleia2> so it might be nice to come up with some Personas for various users (developers, classrooms, etc) to make sure our Strat Doc meets their needs
<pleia2> my first inclination is to create a short user survey which pretty much just asks users how they'd classify themselves user-wise
<pleia2> like, one question
<pleia2> Developer, User, Educator, Student, <write in>
<knome> if we set up some user surveys, maybe we could ask the participants if they would be ok to be mentioned on the website
<knome> to create a parallel series to "Xubuntu at..."
<knome> could be 2-3 people per article
<pleia2> ooh, yeah, maybe "if you wish to be contacted about your usage for a possible blog post, put your name and address here"
<habhatti> that'd be nice
<knome> yep.
<ali1234> one question isn't enough, i think. unless the question is "please write 500 words describing yourself"
<knome> ali1234, it's a start.
<pleia2> ali1234: I want to keep this simple, otherwise people won't do it
<pleia2> we need to start somewhere :)
<ali1234> well i won't answer a one word survey which is so open-ended
<knome> as i told sidi... we really want to avoid open-ended questions unless we really need a lot of open-ended data
<ali1234> takes too long to write something. i can blast through multiple choice questions in no time
<pleia2> ali1234: based on surveys I've conducted in the past, I think you're in the minority
<knome> ali1234, you won't answer a survey with one question and a dropdown box?
<ali1234> sure, but unless there's like 100 items in the drop down that won't tell you anything useful
<pleia2> my short surveys always do considerably better than long ones (like, 10x as well)
<pleia2> anyway, this is just a baseline, currently we know pretty much nothing about our users :\
<knome> i would go with 5-10 different groups.
<pleia2> yeah, I'll draft up an etherpad we can collaborate on with options
<knome> great
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to contact Canonical IS to set up xubuntu-contacts mailing list
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to contact Canonical IS to set up xubuntu-contacts mailing list
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to draft etherpad for user self-classification survey
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to draft etherpad for user self-classification survey
<pleia2> ok, so that brings me to my last item
<knome> :)
<pleia2> 3. We should figure out if we're truly meeting the needs of our users
<pleia2> right now we tell them to help us in the dev process early on in the cycle to talk about default options, etc
<pleia2> but no one does this
<pleia2> even if they make it to the table, they often don't have the expertise to review our strategy document and help us effectively
<knome> so i guess the question is: how do we make participation easier but at the same time, useful for the team
<pleia2> yep
<pleia2> I'm thinking another survey around March or so
<knome> and the other question is
<pleia2> asking things like "what do you install after installing xubuntu"
<ali1234> yes, a basic survey now would inform later ones
<knome> how should we process the data from our users, eg. if 15 people say they want libreoffice installed, should we just do that?
<elfy> what do we supply that you remove/don't use
<pleia2> if we really do have an avalanche of libreoffice, that tells us something important
<elfy> yep
<pleia2> knome: no, it's a data point
<pleia2> we don't have to
<ali1234> there was a survey on reddit the other day, it had an avalanche of libreoffice
<knome> how do we make sure it's not only the vocal minority?
<elfy> knome: well at the moment the vocal minority do make their choices :)
<knome> i guess it ultimately boils down to: how do we stick to what we think is "xubuntu" and at the same time, listen to our users
<ali1234> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1cHinunM_sGz9CUABKVSxWy5dLJAuGYcNRVc9GJ976r4/viewanalytics
<knome> if we do whatever the users say, xubuntu will soon have this, that and the other software and won't fit on a 1GB USB
<pleia2> knome: well, right now we have no idea except from people who yell at us :)
<habhatti> i think if you find out more about your users, you'll probably end up with requests for things that are sensibly minimal 
<pleia2> habhatti: agreed
<elfy> surely it's better to have some data than just team hoping we're making sensible choices
<habhatti> correct
<pleia2> elfy: that's what I'm thinking
<knome> i don't disagree with that
<pleia2> we don't have to be influenced by the outcome, but it's a start
<elfy> yea
<knome> i'm just wondering that how will we know at the end of the day if libreoffice should be installed or not
<pleia2> maybe, maybe not
<pleia2> I think we won't know until we give it a try
<knome> and if we just stick to what we have decided so far, how does it help to even ask users? :)
<knome> sure, i'm just bringing out some food for thought
<ali1234> we won't know that unless we ask
<habhatti> it's always positive to solicit feedback
<pleia2> giving users a voice is important, even if it's only one piece of many in our decision
<habhatti> builds a sense of community
<elfy> knome: because it's not a dozen people's voices hopefully :)
<ali1234> how many replies did sidi get?
<knome> the other question related to preference on software is that how much has xubuntu-core helped people
<pleia2> we can make that clear in the survey too, "many considerations impact our decisions in direction, this survey seeks to bring in the direct user feedback piece" or somesuch
<habhatti> ^
<pleia2> knome: yeah, maybe break out the default apps into a checkbox question?
<knome> and how many would consider that a fair option for getting the system they want, instead of having libreoffice installed by default for example
<pleia2> "select tools you use"
<knome> maybe
<pleia2> anyway, I want to do this in March, so I figure we can start this work in Feburary after we have results from the first survey
<knome> yep, agree with pointing out that it isn't a shouting competition and the group who shouts the loudest, wins..
<pleia2> can etherpad up and discuss it more then
<pleia2> knome: yeah
<knome> please do so
<pleia2> that's all from me :)
<knome> any other discussions?
<elfy> not from me 
<pleia2> and thanks to everyone for being so engaged \o/
<knome> :)
<knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
<pleia2> ali1234: this is an interesting survey, would be nice to see coorelation with default apps on their respective system (are they just using what's installed, or?)
<knome> ochosi is up next for XPL
<knome> #nick ochosi
<knome> #action ochosi (for XPL) to schedule next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi (for XPL) to schedule next meeting
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 24 18:55:20 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-11-24-17.59.moin.txt
<knome> thanks!
<pleia2> thanks knome 
 * pleia2 back2work
<elfy> just a point on this shuffling meeting times 
<ali1234> pleia2: it's a google survey, the questions and answers are as you see them, people just tick whatever box
<knome> i'll put up the minutes in a minute
<knome> elfy, yep?
<ali1234> (single choice)
<pleia2> ali1234: yeah, just musing :)
<elfy> I wonder if someone is mentioned more than once whether they should just chair once
<ali1234> seeing correlations would be good, but i don't that's possible unless you are survey owner
<knome> elfy, maybe
<elfy> knome: moves chair AND likely meeting times around more 
<elfy> eg ochosi is 3 times and likely to pick 11am 3 times :)
<elfy> just a thought
<knome> correct
<knome> i generally prefer the changing chair
<knome> even if it means that the meeting time changes and it's harder to make/remember it
<elfy> yes
<knome> minutes are up
<elfy> I agree, changing chair is a good thing :)
<knome> and nicely splits the burden
<elfy> all I'm saying is that 3 out of 9 are 1 person and so of that person always picks the same time 
<knome> heh, yeah
<elfy> which is not good for others - that means that 33% of meetings are going to be missed 
<elfy> instead of 15% 
<knome> i guess we could/should at least skip over a chair if a person has two or more consecutive chairs
<elfy> just a thought :)
<knome> ochosi, ping ^
<habhatti> Hmm, are there any specific testcases for applications?
<elfy> habhatti: yep - they are all on the package tracker 
<elfy> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/327/builds/82959/testcases
<elfy> habhatti: there are 2 trackers - one is for images, the other for packages 
<elfy> that link is our tests - there are other sets of tests available in addition 
<elfy> habhatti: did you catch the testcase chat before you pinged out?
<habhatti> elfy: yes, although I missed the answer about how to look at the changes in the daily builds
<elfy> you only thought you said that :)
<elfy> all we have in channel is Hmm, are there any specific testcases for applications? then you pinging out 
<habhatti> oh, here: and is there any to see what has changed in the daily build?
<elfy> not actually sure - I tend to run a the dev version so I see what's updated by updating - everything has a changelog unless it's from a ppa
<elfy> I've never really needed to know *what* has changed daily
<habhatti> ok
<elfy> any reason that you're thinking of for knowing?
<habhatti> oh knowing what has changed helps to focus on those packages more
<elfy> habhatti: well if you're testing - you don't really need to know if a package has changed unless you find a bug
<habhatti> true
<ali1234> there isnt really a good way to do that
<habhatti> ah well, time to install this on a real machine :)
 * dkessel finished reading backlog
<elfy> habhatti: do you have a spare machine?
<dkessel> woooot xubuntu t-shirts
<dkessel> and only 3 left...
<habhatti> elfy: I was thinking of triple-booting on this laptop
<elfy> though - mine isn't so much as a spare machine as a handful of partitions 
<elfy> yea :)
<habhatti> easier to get these tests done since I always lug this around
<elfy> habhatti: when you install it - just install grub to that partition - then update whatever your main bootloader is to find it 
<habhatti> elfy: hmm, yeah. I have Win7/Xubuntu 14.04 with an encrypted home atm
<ali1234> if you look at the ppa on launchpad you can see when packages last changed: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xubuntu-staging
<ali1234> +git means it's not an official release but a git snapshot
<elfy> I'd not let it do it automatically - I'd create the partition, then manually set partitions - then you can tell it where to install grub
<elfy> ali1234: yea
<habhatti> ali1234: that works, thanks 
<ali1234> for the detailed changelogs you can go to http://git.xfce.org
<elfy> that's just the few ppa packages though 
<ali1234> click the package, then "log"
<ali1234> it's kind of tricky to filter out all the translation commits though
<ali1234> and you have to figure out which git revision the ppa corresponds to manually
<ali1234> some programs put the git revision in help->about
<habhatti> thank you
<ali1234> although only if it was built from the repo, which ppas usually aren't
<elfy> night all 
<knome> dkessel, i'm sure that's just the first batch
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-25
<bluesabre> elfy: thanks for the bug report... the sudo dialog assumes everything works since sudo has no password in live.  Will fix for vivid
<Unit193> Hmmm... New x-d-s in trusty will add the Settings submenu, and removes Settings Manager, so it appears.
* Unit193 changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Daily testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks
<bluesabre> Unit193: hm? what x-d-s?
<knome> xubuntu-default-settings ?
<bluesabre> right
<knome> :)
<bluesabre> but "new" and "trusty" are throwing me off
<knome> heh
<sidi> ali1234, knome got 500ish replies on the first survey, 250ish on the second one
<sidi> most open ended questions were used as a dumpsite for thank-you notes
<sidi> i'll try some quick and mega-dirty grounded theory coding on the data, but mostly i'll strip the thankyou notes away and so i'll have relatively little open-ended data to process
<sidi> most questions were like "what problems do you have" so easy to code
<knome> yep
<knome> sidi, did you ever send that mail to xubuntu-users?
<sidi> knome, erm nope
<sidi> posted on your forum
 * knome facepalms
<sidi> and informed you so you can decide to advertise it in your own ways
<knome> forums... :P
<sidi> i got a lot of xub respondants though
<knome> i'm not the marketing lead :P
<knome> ok
<knome> good enough
<elfy> knome: on UF 30 people actually read the thread
<elfy> bah
<elfy> sidi ^^ :)
<sidi> elfy, ah well ;P
<ochosi> phew, finally read up on the meeting
<ochosi> that was quite lengthy
<ochosi> first of all, very sad to read that elfy 
<ochosi> if you wanna discuss anything there that would help you to reconsider, don't hesitate to get in touch with me
<ochosi> i mean we've PM'd about this a few times in the past, so i think i have a good understanding of what's going on
<ochosi> pleia2: i like the marketing ideas â very happy to see those flowing in! if you need help/support from my side, do get in touch
<ochosi> and i agree that gathering some user data might be good, it's not intended as a vote on our default package selection anyway
<ochosi> and in the end, even if many users want e.g. LO, we might still have technical issues with including it by default (e.g. image-size)
<ochosi> but good to know what users think in general
<knome> http://open.knome.fi/2014/11/25/preparing-responsive-design-for-xubuntu/
<elfy> nice :)
<knome> ta ta
<knome> about time i blogged about something :P
<knome> last time was in february
<elfy> heh
<elfy> quality over quantity always works ;)
<knome> sure, i'm avoiding pushing out crap
<knome> hvae 5 draft articles
 * elfy has none
<knome> heh
<knome> maybe you should start blogging ;)
<elfy> as close as I've come is as close as I'd like to be :)
<knome> heh
<elfy> done bits for xubuntu and the fc 
<knome> though personal blogging is something completely different...
<knome> i mean, it has that very different feel, since you really don't have to stick to being kind of "boring"
<elfy> of course - never ever been bothered by it to be honest :)
<knome> though i guess i still kind of like to be boring...
<elfy> much like all the 'social' stuff - no interest in that either
<knome> yeah, not touching that either
<elfy> :)
<knome> a place where snarky comments win over thought-out, longer commentary is not for me, generally speaking
<knome> one could argue that IRC is one of those places... but it really depends much on the channel
<knome> that said, we should probably stop or move over #xubuntu-offtopic :P
<elfy> slickymasterWork: thanks - all merged and synced
<slickymasterWork> ok, thanks for that elfy 
<slickymasterWork> over Testsuite C right now
<elfy> thanks :)
<elfy> that really bored the life out of me for the last 2 sessions :)
<slickymasterWork> well, the first one is a miss (Abiword)
<elfy> you see the same bug?
<elfy> oh nvm - so could I :D
<slickymasterWork> :)
<elfy> jjfrv8: not another vbox issue :(
<elfy> re abiword 
<elfy> jjfrv8: commented on abiword bug - I see the bug regardless of where livesession is - vm and hardware
<elfy> kind of glad that it's not just a vm bug 
<slickymasterWork> poor VM bugs, getting underrated
<elfy> heh
<elfy> I *really* didn't want to see loads of those again
 * slickymasterWork knows
<knome> http://xstaging.lallinaho.fi/ - comments about new color scheme (old dark bg dumped out)
<knome> ochosi, ^ ping
<elfy> quite a lot lighter - maybe too light, though if the desktop screenshots weren't so much darker it wouldn't *jar* quite so much
<knome> the dark bg just starts to give me a headache too
<knome> it's kind of "unprofessional"
<knome> and yeah, don't know if "baby blue" is any more professional, but hey...
<elfy> yea - agree with the headache comment
<knome> at least the right thing is now highlighted - the screenshot
<elfy> well that's true :)
<slickymasterWork> even though I'm not a big fan of 'baby blue', in the overall 'look' , it results striclky aesthetically speaking
<ochosi> knome: i agree with slickymasterWork on the baby-blue part
<knome> maybe it should be even less saturated or sth
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> but i'll have to sleep on it
<knome> also, you can test the responsive design there as well
<knome> just stretch the window
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> well done!
<knome> ta
<knome> still some things to fix, as i mention in the blog, but it's getting there
<elfy> oh - the responsiveness is good :)
<pleia2> ochosi: thanks
<slickymasterWork> yes, I can also confirm that the responsiveness is working correctly knome 
<knome> of course it is! ;)
<slickymasterWork> anything else wouldn't be expected knome :P
<ochosi> elfy, knome: re: chairing the meetings and meeting times...
<ochosi> i don't mind if we just cycle with every individual chairing one meeting per cycle
<ochosi> i understand the concern that especially i skew the distribution of meeting times by chairing more meetings
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> so from my pov we can switch to a different system anytime
<elfy> I like the cycling chair (and time to suit different chair's) thing - works well 
<elfy> and I think that now pleia2 is only 1 lead it's only you that skew it 
<elfy> and it's not an issue as such - just something I brought up 
<pleia2> thank goodness for that
<elfy> (even if it does affect me when someone has 3  meetings at 11 am :) )
<elfy> hi pleia2 
<ochosi> it was more to accomodate for bluesabre to be able to show up, tbh
<elfy> yea 
<ochosi> it's not my favorite time of the day for meetings
<elfy> which is a positive thing anyway imo
<elfy> it's not my favourite time of the day for anything ;)
 * slickymasterWork doesn't like to chair :P
<elfy> who does ... 
<pleia2> slickymasterWork: no one likes to chair!
<slickymasterWork> hey pleia2 
<ochosi> elfy: it's my favorite time of the day for... lunch ;)
<elfy> I'm sure knome really loved chairing everyone for instance 
<slickymasterWork> but I don't like it more :P :P :P 
<elfy> ochosi: :)
 * slickymasterWork agrees with elfy 
<slickymasterWork> re: knome 
<elfy> heh
<elfy> talking of which - time for food apparently
<elfy> bbl
<knome> haha1
<knome> !
<habhatti> these responsive sheets are fantastic
<ochosi> +1
<knome> just working on the smallest resolution stylesheets
<habhatti> Have you considering adding controls to the screenshot slider on the front page?
<knome> adding some odd/even row coloring
<knome> habhatti, we had that, but removed it at some point
<habhatti> That's odd.
<knome> why? people can click through the list of all screenshots
<habhatti> Hmm.
<knome> i mean, the only reason why somebody would want to click through the screenshots is that they are impatient, in which case the list of screenshots is better anyway
<habhatti> is this wp 4.0?
<ali1234> that screenshot page is a bit... nope
<knome> the staging site is, production not
<ali1234> the new front page is nice though
<knome> ali1234, welcome to volunteer and take a better one
<ali1234> is this bootstrap?
<habhatti> well :)
<knome> ali1234, no
<ali1234> custom?
<knome> yes
<habhatti> if you're planning to upgrade this to 4.0 I could throw a theme your way
<knome> habhatti, we're not looking for a new theme
<ali1234> it looks weird to me
<knome> ali1234, what? the screenshot?
<knome> ali1234, or the theme?
<ali1234> the screenshot page
<ali1234> the theme is fine
<knome> oh, that
<knome> right, likely looks weird :P
<knome> check the production website
<habhatti> needs more spacing
<ali1234> well production looks more normal
<ali1234> still don't like it though
<knome> the screenshot page has gotten the least love tbh
<knome> i like the production tour page.
<ali1234> hmm tour page is nice but... maybe a bit more wwhitespace between the blocks?
<habhatti> yeah
<ali1234> did i mention the mouse is called Xue?
<ali1234> apparently, according to super tux kart
<knome> ali1234, it isn't like this wasn't shown off before it hit production... but if you have actionable work items, you can start off by filing a bug :)
<knome> it's really hard to track feedback/requests on IRC
<knome> ali1234, and, it's intentional that the boxes overlap
 * habhatti nods.
<ali1234> what boxes?
<knome> on the tour page
<habhatti> tour page blocks
<knome> the colored boxes
<ali1234> they overlap?
<knome> should...
<ali1234> how so?
<knome> ??
<ali1234> they don't look like they overlap
<knome> maybe you should post a screenshot and tell which browser you are using
<ali1234> i am using firefox
<ali1234> which version are you talking about?
<knome> the boxes should overlap in both staging and production
<ali1234> overlap what?
<habhatti> each other
<knome> each other - please send a screenshot
<knome> otherwise i have no idea what you are seeing, and it's really hard to tell if what you see is intentional or not - since you don't seem to know what you are talking about yourself either..
<habhatti> checked in ff, it's identical to chromium
<ali1234> http://imgur.com/jdhHDM0
<knome> yes
<knome> see the line between the blue and the pink box
<knome> it's a mix of those two colors
<ali1234> okay
<ali1234> it doesn't look like they overlap
<knome> where are you proposing to add whitespace?
<ali1234> it just looks like you put a coloured border
<knome> it's not meant to be "too" obvious
<ali1234> i was proposing to add more padding to the top and bottom of div.hb
<ali1234> but t doesn't look better so forget it
<knome> ok
<knome> bbl, sauna
<knome> added release schedule dates to the team calendar
<knome> ochosi, and the reminder about translation release coordination
<pleia2> wow, unixstickers sold out of the 33% and 26% off t-shirts already
<knome> heh
<slickymaster> knome isn't almost a month and a half a bit too large before a period before the official translation deadline?
<knome> the coordination is going to take time
<slickymaster> s/too large before a period before/too large a period
<slickymaster> even so
<slickymaster> I was planning to make the last call for translations by the end of March
<knome> you got to remember that this is a bit different...
<slickymaster> I was aiming at 16-18 March
<knome> there might be string changes that needs released
<knome> *need
<knome> of course, the user-facing calls for translation should happen as usually
<slickymaster> not quite getting knome 
<knome> and then we will want the translation releases to happen just before the non-languagepack freezes
<knome> if there are changes in the UI, they are subject to the UI freeze
<knome> that pretty much concerns all string changes
<knome> so we need to be on our toes for that
<slickymaster> yeah, but NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline is expected to happen at april, 9th
<slickymaster> do you think than 1 month a some days isn't a bot too much
<knome> no, because that's not our first target
<knome> the first target is UI freeze
<knome> we can't do translation releases that update more than translations
<knome> and to make sure that doesn't happen, we'd want those applications to have releases before the UI freeze, if possible
<slickymaster> isn't UI freeze on March, 19th?
<knome> yes
<slickymaster> my wrong, 12th
<knome> point being, we want the coordination to start before the UI freeze
<knome> the reminder is set to one week before that
<knome> but as i said, there are two targets...
<slickymaster> ok, point taken and accepted
<knome> for the components that have string changes, land them for UI freee
<knome> and for everything else, land before the translation deadline
<slickymaster> and I do see the logical of your reasoning
<knome> and sure, the reminder is quite early for that
<slickymaster> okie doke
<knome> but it has to be because of the UI freeze
<knome> we can add another one when we hit that
<slickymaster> you're right
<knome> when we know better which translation updates we are waiting for
<slickymaster> right
<knome> getting a hold of all people who maintain this and that will take at least a week
<knome> and getting them to do the release... at least one week more
<knome> then we'll want it to land to ubuntu via debian, so add some time for the changes to land in debian
<knome> (note that debian might also have partially conflicting freezes)
<slickymaster> just to be sure, we're strickly speaking about Xfce related releases, in this case, right?
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> ko
<ochosi> pleia2: maybe if the things sell well we'll get discounted/free items to give out as motivational gifts ;)
<pleia2> they're sending me one along with our sticker bundles ;)
 * slickymaster needs motivation :(
 * knome takes the whip out
 * slickymaster points knome to ochosi words
<knome> hah
<knome> i still have some xubuntu stickers left... with the old logo
<knome> ;)
<slickymaster> :)
<knome> and some of the first, limited edition powered by -stickers!
<knome> that's silver on black!
<knome> thanks to pleia2 :)
<Unit193> Nice!
<knome> umm no, bad brain
<knome> it's white on black
<knome> but...
<knome> not the same as the current one
<knome> slickymaster, would one of those give you motivation? :P
<slickymaster> lol, I was just kidding 
<knome> so you don't want one? :P
<slickymaster> and secretly trying to get a free t-shirt
<slickymaster> of course I want
<knome> i'll put that on my "send this stuff to xubuntu people" list
<slickymaster> heh
<slickymaster> good, generous  and gentle knome 
<slickymaster> :P
<knome> haha
<knome> i still have a box to send to pleia2 :d
<sidi-valencia> knome, i also lack motivation for writing up the thesis. 
<slickymaster> haha
<slickymaster> let's all spam him with lack of motivation issues
<sidi-valencia> and then ask for beer.
<slickymaster> ;)
<slickymaster> or rum
<sidi-valencia> my gf gives me candy as i progress but she fell asleep. she was my last hope
<ochosi> knome: well if you wanna throw some of those goodies into later motivational bundles for users e.g. for doing QA, that'd be nice
<sidi-valencia> ochosi, very good idea, actually, to give goodies where you need more contributors
<ochosi> well we have goodies for xubuntu users and bounties for xfce contributors
<knome> ochosi, i have a very limited supply
<knome> ochosi, i also have a ping-pong ball for you :P
<ochosi> weeeee
<ochosi> \o/
<knome> but as i've said before... i can contribute some customish artwork as a motivation
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-26
<knome> pleia2, you near a printer now and have five minutes or so?
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> ali1234: btw, panel-switch just saved the day once again ;)
<knome> or anybody else have a printer and 5 mins? :)
 * slickymaster have the time but not the printer
<knome> then you are useless :)
<knome> sorry!
 * slickymaster is unmotivated, again :(
<knome> lol
 * sidi-valencia pets slickymaster
<sidi-valencia> there, there
 * slickymaster thanks sidi-valencia 
<slickymaster> lol, I wonder how come the XPL hasn't yet put a end in all this pointless chats'
<ochosi> luckily i have better things to do than play irc-police at 1am
<slickymaster> :)
<Unit193> slickymaster: Shush!
 * slickymaster hides
<sidi-valencia> brainwash, it's got nothing to do with you
<brainwash> it? I don't understand without any backlog
<knome> brainwash, that was the joke.
<sidi-valencia> slickymaster hiding
<sidi-valencia> not your fault
<slickymaster> :)
<sidi-valencia> also, what knome did before
<sidi-valencia> don't blame yourself, really
<slickymaster> tbh it was Unit193's fault, brainwash 
<sidi-valencia> yeah i reckon
 * sidi-valencia shuts up.
<knome> so anybody has a printer? :P
<slickymaster> what a team knome 
<knome> yeah, way to go!
<Unit193> knome: For?
<knome> Unit193, flyer printout test
<sidi-valencia> knome, let me take a night bus to uni for you
<sidi-valencia> oops
<knome> sidi-valencia, haha
<brainwash> knome: the fix for bug 1310264 will be backported to trusty, but I thought that we cannot allow such a change after final release
<ubottu> bug 1310264 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu Trusty) "Can't search/find items in the Settings Manager" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310264
<brainwash> altering the UI I mean
<knome> can always if there's paperwork done and sru team approves
<brainwash> oh ok, I'm glad that some user cared about it and made it possible
<knome> that's good
<jjfrv8> knome, still want a printer?
<knome> jjfrv8, yep!
<slickymaster> hey jjfrv8 
<jjfrv8> howdy, slickymaster 
<knome> jjfrv8, please pastebin me your 'lpoptions -l'
<jjfrv8> lpoptions -l
<jjfrv8> whoops
<skellat> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9241340/
<skellat> Though I do have cups-pdf as my default
<knome> skellat, you can do lpoptions -d DEVICE -l
<knome> ok, jjfrv8 Unit193 and skellat, next thing:
<sidi-valencia> knome, Xub only or should i try to ssh to uni?
<knome> if you don't know your printers machine name, check it with 'lpstat -a'
<knome> sidi-valencia, any unix system does, but you'll have to be able to look at the printed stuf
<knome> *stuff too
<sidi-valencia> ah nvm
<knome> yeah :)
<skellat> knome: For my actual printer -- http://paste.ubuntu.com/9241350/
<knome> skellat, interesting, you have .FB modes, Unit193 doesn't
<skellat> HP-Officejet-Pro-8100
<knome> so once you know the printer name
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/.flyer/
<knome> grab a file from there
<knome> naturally, pick the one that matches your paper size
<knome> after that, run:
<knome> lp -d [device-name] -o fit-to-page -P 1 [filename]
<knome> then, the hardest part of this excersize:
<knome> fold the flyer in three.
<knome> after you've folded it, see if the pages look like they align with the folds
<knome> specifically, see if the "page" on the right hand side has a big right margin, or the "page" that is on the left hand side has a big left margin
<knome> ideally, all the "pages" should align to the middle of each fold
<knome> and i'm here for questions :)
 * skellat goes to find somebody else in the house to try folding this **correctly**
<knome> :D
<sidi-valencia> can i dump feedback that comes to mind on content? and if so can i be told more about the targets?
<knome> if you can fold it even nearly as it should, it should be obvious if the alignment is ok
<knome> sidi-valencia, i facepalm very hard at you, but you can send feedback on the content to me
<sidi-valencia> knome, <3
<sidi-valencia> knome, i find it funny to advertise a settings manager, im wondering, what would people find "cool" to do on a computer and among the cool features which do you guys provide? w/ *buntu you surely have a number of nice and exclusive assets
<skellat> knome: Big right margin on both print attempts
<knome> skellat, ok, let's try this:
<sidi-valencia> but well you speak about terminals so i guess it's targeted to linuxians :-)
<knome> in the lp command, after the other option, add: -o Media=Letter.FB
<knome> jjfrv8, you need assistance? :)
<skellat> knome: And that version looks correct and folds correctly
<knome> great.
<knome> thanks
<knome> i'm still interested of more results..
<knome> but it is weird that the printer requires the .FB mode even if we're not REALLY printing so close to the edges that it'd need it
<jjfrv8> knome, http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/flyer46.php
<knome> huh. yeah, that's off
<knome> jjfrv8, did you have .FB modes in lpoptions -l ?
<knome> if you do, please try with one
<knome> that should fix the alignment
<jjfrv8> not sure. I got a "unable to open PPD file for printername" when I ran that command
<knome> hmm...
<knome> with just the -l option?
<jjfrv8> ja
<knome> maybe you need to specify the printer device name
<knome> what does 'lpstat -a' give you?
<jjfrv8> "printername accepting requests"
<knome> ok, weird
<knome> just try and see what happens if you add -o Media=Letter.FB
<jjfrv8> to which command?
<knome> to the lp command
<jjfrv8> keep the -o fit-to-page as well?
<knome> yep
<knome> that option is weird, because to me it tells that it should resize the content, but it actually preserves the original size here... go figure :)
<knome> but that's how it worked for me
<jjfrv8> that spread things out. let me re-fold
<knome> ooh :)
<knome> Unit193, you still around?
<Unit193> There's a chance.
<knome> lol
<knome> then try that print
<knome> you can try to cheat and add .FB even if it's not listed as supported
<jjfrv8> knome, result of second try: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/flyer213.php
<knome> looks much more like it should
<knome> do the pages generally appear as aligned for you?
<jjfrv8> yeah
<knome> yep
<knome> thanks!
<jjfrv8> welcome
<knome> i guess i'll investigate next what i'd need to do in order to support non-.FB modes..
<Unit193> Looks a bit off center, but meh.
<knome> Unit193, try adding the .FB option
<knome> jjfrv8, still around and want to try one more thing?
<jjfrv8> shoot
<knome> let me upload a file first
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/.flyer/
<knome> grab the "cropbox" one
<knome> then try printing without the .FB argument
<jjfrv8> just a sec
<jjfrv8> printed but let me grab my implements again
<knome> mhm
<jjfrv8> left and right margins look better but folds are worse, eh: http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/flyer310.php
<knome> yeah...
<knome> that might still be the right route
<knome> thanks again
<knome> i should be able to get a hold of a printer tomorrow and now i know what to play around with
<knome> too bad it isn't a given that any printer can print "over" the media size
<jjfrv8> k, good luck.
<knome> thanks
<knome> we'll get this out before the end of the year!
<jjfrv8> :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: And, read the patch pilot report, https://code.launchpad.net/~brunonova/ubuntu/trusty/xubuntu-default-settings/lp1310264/+merge/238935 (FWIW, there's another xubu mention: https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/vivid/xfce4-xkb-plugin/lp-733563/+merge/239668)
<Unit193> Full report: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2014-November/038543.html
<knome> nighty! -->
<pleia2> knome: sorry, will have some time on wednesday
<Unit193> pleia2: Howdy.  Were you looking into epub?
<pleia2> Unit193: nope
<Unit193> Ah, OK.
<pleia2> knome said he had a work item about it
<Unit193> Yep, "Briefly investigate possibilities to export DocBook to other formats"
<knome> pleia2, that's okay :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: got it. Will get to the xkb-plugin tonight.  It's been hectic.
<bluesabre> bbl
<ochosi> i think as soon as intelligent hiding of the panel is fixed/released and we ship it, we could reconsider re-adding the bottom panel to xubuntu's layout
<ochosi> (we could also put it to the left side)
<brainwash> ochosi: and switch back to the classic app menu? :)
<brainwash> whiskermenu was the reason to get rid of the bottom panel
<brainwash> the main reason
<GridCube> i still use a panel as a launcher for basic apps
<GridCube> but having whiskers made xubuntu more accesible to my family that doesnt understand much of computers, having a menu where you type what you want and it searchs that app for you you its very useful
<ochosi> brainwash: i don't think it's necessarily an either-or and i like to test different setups before the lts
<ochosi> i remember there were some users who really liked the bottom panel and wanted it back after we removed it
<brainwash> this reminds me that we should not have removed the bottom panel, only hide/deactivate it, so the user can easily enable it again
<brainwash> a preconfigured bottom panel is a good idea
<ochosi> how would you go about hiding/deactivating it?
<ochosi> the best thing would be to simply have a UI for panel-switch and to ship it with a few presets
<brainwash> I think you can hide panel-1 and so on
<brainwash> maybe it's a hidden switch -> settings editor
<brainwash> I cannot test it right now
<elfy> why have 2 panels? wherever they are (- which is obviously a moot point to me)
<brainwash> the bottom panel could be optional
<brainwash> hidden by default, so the user can re-enable it easily
<elfy> if we've got a couple of cycles to play - why not play with position first
<brainwash> isn't there only one sane position?
<elfy> personally I've no particular axe to grind here - as the panel is never what I want anyway :)
<elfy> brainwash: apparently not :D
<brainwash> I like the idea of having an optional preconfigured panel
<elfy> so do I - I'll choose the options :)
<brainwash> sadly the panel cannot keep track of running programs, so it's not that useful
<brainwash> like all the other dock apps
<elfy> mine show's what I've got running 
<brainwash> but the old bottom panel does not, it has only some normal app launchers
<elfy> old is old and gone - why even bring it up? 
<elfy> surely we're talking about the future 
<brainwash> the next LTS release
<elfy> missing my point :)
<brainwash> and it's just some random thought
<elfy> :)
<elfy> what I'm saying is - not much point in talking about what the old one did, making assumption that a replacement would be exactly the same
<jjfrv8> ochosi, quick question on powerman: is there any actual difference on a laptop among the blanking, sleeping and switching off settings of the display?
<jjfrv8> bbl
<habhatti> hello
<elfy> hi habhatti :)
<habhatti> hey elfy, installed vivid today :)
<elfy> \o/ 
<elfy> nice :)
<Unit193> habhatti: Howdy.  So I missed it, where'd you come from? :D
<habhatti> Unit193: Hey. I'm from Pakistan.
<Unit193> Ah, sidi's survey.
<slickymaster> hey guys
<elfy> hi slickymaster 
<elfy> bluesabre: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2014-November/010488.html
<habhatti> hey slickymaster 
<elfy> I replied - but not sure where they should report that :)
<slickymaster> habhatti o/
<slickymaster> that's a strange one elfy :P
<elfy> slickymaster: yea - not really a whisker bug - as it's doing exactly what it should :)
<slickymaster> yes
<elfy> prior to all settings be visible in whisker it wasn't an issue of course
<slickymaster> yeaps
<slickymaster> let's blame knome on this one elfy 
<elfy> ha ha ha
<slickymaster> it was him who started all with bug 1310264
<ubottu> bug 1310264 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu Trusty) "Can't search/find items in the Settings Manager" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310264
<elfy> yep - which I +1'd :)
<slickymaster> booooo elfy 
<elfy> well it was a bug that affected me :p
<slickymaster> lol
 * Unit193 doesn't use whisker. :D
<slickymaster> thb, I like it Unit193 
<Unit193> You're permitted to. :P
<slickymaster> ;)
<Unit193> bluesabre: FWIW, Ubuntu is looking into hexchat-indicator now, but not sure it's worth much.
<elfy> saw that conversation in bits
<ochosi> jjfrv8: yeah, blanking only puts a black layer on the screen, so the display is still switched on. suspend/sleep means it'll wake up more quickly then when it's really switched off. the time/difference depends on the hardware though
<jjfrv8> ochosi, thanks. so is it true for laptops as for desktops that some hardware might not support switching off?
<ochosi> afaik there is no good data on what hardware supports what exactly
<ochosi> e.g. the distinction between sleep and suspend in DPMS is not very transparent
<ochosi> supposedly there's a wakeup-time difference between standby and suspend as well
<ochosi> but yeah...
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-27
<ochosi> (we considered exposing both standby and suspend to the user, but it just complicates the UI and we don't even know ourselves what the difference is in reality)
<jjfrv8> ok, I'll pay closer attention when testing my laptop to see if I notice a time diff with each.
<ochosi> yeah, but frankly for the docs feel free to just add a paragraph that says that we don't *really* know for sure
<jjfrv8> but I was just wondering about the difference for both testing and the docs. It's easy to see on a monitor with an LED the differences.
<ochosi> ah ok
<brainwash> ochosi: should we fix bug 1396804 in xubuntu?
<ubottu> bug 1396804 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Name For Thunar Settings Launcher Is Unclear (thunar-settings.desktop)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1396804
<brainwash> keep it downstream
<ochosi> nah
<ochosi> rather fix it upstream
<ochosi> the main problem as far as i can see are translations within the desktop file
<brainwash> but the new name will also appear in the settings manager
<ochosi> but if you can, please check whether there's already an upstream report and if not, submit one, so i can bring it up with nick once we're both around
<brainwash> why would upstream want such a change?
<ochosi> why wouldn't it?
<brainwash> there is no need to change it
 * ochosi shrugs
<brainwash> same for xfdesktop-settings
<brainwash> which is named "Desktop"
<ochosi> that's different though
<brainwash> whisker menu is not an official Xfce panel plugin
<ochosi> there's no "application" of the desktop that you'd launch from anywhere
<ochosi> theoretically we could also try to hide the desktop file from whiskermenu somehow
<brainwash> bug 1352653
<ubottu> bug 1352653 in pcmanfm (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Software Center>Desktop Preferences describes PCManFM" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352653
<brainwash> is similar
<brainwash> see comment #4
<ochosi> yeah
<brainwash> so, the entry in http://docs.xfce.org/_media/xfce/xfce4-settings/xfce4-settings-manager.png would be "file manage preferences" instead of "file manager"
<ochosi> anyway, fixing it downstream = meh, because of translations in the .desktop file
<brainwash> yea, so... what can we do?
 * ochosi shrugs
<brainwash> "not fixable" :D
<brainwash> can't we just provide the translations for it?
<brainwash> downstream hacks are ugly :/
<ochosi> as you pointed out yourself, it's not just about translations, it's also about the consistency in the settings manager
<brainwash> do we care about this?
<ochosi> and yeah, i really wouldn't wanna do this downstream anyway (not only because of translations)
<ochosi> well, i understand the concern, but right now, i don't have a good solution/idea
<ochosi> if i have one, i can take another look, if you have one, feel free to ping me
<brainwash> maybe.. in the distant future
<brainwash> lets mark it as wishlist in the meantime
<ochosi> well feel free to comment that we don't have a good solution but acknowledge the problem
<brainwash> I will
<ochosi> thanks
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-contacts
<pleia2> ta-da!
<pleia2> need to add details and things, but the list has been created, so yay :)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> nice work
<ochosi> i only read the meeting logs afterwards, but i thought you initially didnt want to set up a list..?
<ochosi> (cause it might feel deserted/dead)
<pleia2> yeah, we'll just hide the archives
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> alright, problem solved :]
<ochosi> frankly, i did like the idea of having a specific person to contact
<pleia2> bus factor was a fair point
<ochosi> the threshold of contacting an individual seems lower than to send an email to a list
<ochosi> yeah, i get that. but otoh do you really think we'd get many requests?
<pleia2> not really :)
<ochosi> the low expected quantity of traffic is another argument against a separate list imo
<ochosi> it's just overkill
 * pleia2 shrugs
<ochosi> and after all, who would answer? my guess would be people in -team
<ochosi> so why not just add a forward to the dev-ml
<ochosi> then at least ppl dont have to subscribe to another list
<ochosi> ;)
<ochosi> </sarcasm>
<pleia2> they don't need to subscribe
<ochosi> anyways, it's up to you, you're the marketing lead, just speaking my mind
<pleia2> I appreciate your input :)
<pleia2> we won't advertise it as a mailing list, just giving the email address
<pleia2> I think we probably should lock down who all can subscribe, like maybe restrict it to -team
<ochosi> ah ok
<knome> yeah, restrict subscriptions
<ochosi> so it is sort of a foward
<ochosi> forward
<ochosi> that's a different thing then
<knome> it's for the safety if pleia2 decides to disappear one day
<knome> and at the same time, a place to keep contacts archive
<pleia2> knome: what do you think, restrict who can subscribe?
<knome> yeah.
<pleia2> ok, doing that now
<knome> and moderate all non-member posts, but i guess that's the default
 * ochosi shudders at the thought of pleia2 disappearing
<pleia2> ok, made it "Require approval" for people subscribing
<Unit193> :D
<knome> and tbh, the policy should be "no non-xubuntu marketing/team people as subscribers"
<pleia2> I dunno, if others are interested I don't see why we can't have them on
<pleia2> it's not like our team is that big ;)
<knome> but that would mean their replies would be non-moderated...
<knome> unless we moderate all messages..
<knome> i mean,
<knome> i don't want it to become another place for "high" quality commentary
<knome> if somebody contacts us because they want to interview us for a, say, tv ad, we don't want jamppa from finland to reply "YEAAAhHH"
<pleia2> er, who?
<pleia2> only xubuntu team members are on the list, we haz no jamppa from finland :)
<knome> jamppa... "a guy" :D
<knome> lol
<knome> i thought you meant outside xubuntu team
<knome> i mean sure, anybody who is interested about marketing for xubuntu
<pleia2> oh, no, just xubuntu-team or people who have talked to me re: marketing
<knome> but isn't it implied that they are kind of part of the marketing team anyway?
<pleia2> who, xubuntu-team?
<knome> oh em gee
<knome> people on xubuntu team who are interested about marketing
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> so yeah, welcome
<knome> oh, and
<knome> please add a work item for fixing the "in moderation queue" email text
<knome> we want it to say "our marketing team will get to your message as soon as possible blah blah"
<pleia2> when I see subscription requests come in, I'll say, "oh yes, that's ochosi *confirm*" or "oh, jamppa from finland, who is that? *polite decline*"
<knome> not "your message is pending"
<pleia2> yeah, was just looking for that option...
<knome> it is there
<knome> on the right hand column on the admin interface
<knome> says something about messages
<knome> Edit the public HTML pages and text files 
<knome> hmm no
<knome> maybe Auto-responder
<pleia2> I shall test
<knome> mmh
<knome> Text to include in any rejection notice to be sent to moderated members who post to this list.
<knome> under Privacy options... -> Sender filters
<pleia2> oh, neat
<knome> oh
<knome> not that
<knome> but
<pleia2> hah
<knome> Text to include in any rejection notice to be sent to non-members who post to this list. This notice can include the list's owner address by %(listowner)s and replaces the internally crafted default message.
<knome> but that still only talks about rejection
<knome> :|
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> doof, I didn't turn moderation on for non-subscribers (I thought it was default?)
<pleia2> now we have a funny thing in the archives \o/
<pleia2> go me
<knome> :D :D
<knome> hopefully not a gif of a cat..
<pleia2> I ask about oranges
<knome> :D
<pleia2> Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit action is defined.
<pleia2> hm, that is set to Hold
<knome> yeah..
<bluesabre> hey everyone
<pleia2> maybe mailman was being clever, I'll try sending from another account
<knome> :D
<knome> soon we'll have a bunch of queries about different fruit
<pleia2> haha
<pleia2> ok, that worked (not go through)
<pleia2> now everyone gets 2 messages when they email us :s
<pleia2> moderated, and "we will get to you soon"
<pleia2> bleh
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<knome> pleia2, yeah..
<pleia2> maybe we can turn off the you've been moderated message
<knome> see PM :D
<pleia2> oh :)
<knome> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> how are things?  going to try to get some stuff done tonight (finally)
<pleia2> well there we go
<knome> great
 * knome tests
<knome> right...
<knome> now create a work item to make that message a bit less terse and a bit more warm :)
<knome> can assign me
<pleia2> go for it :)
<pleia2> papple is an abomination
<ochosi> bluesabre: i've tried to participate a bit in the recent upswing in xfce activity and submitted two patches to the panel
<ochosi> other than that, i didn't really get to do much xubuntu-specific tasks
<bluesabre> ochosi: great!  I'll try to catch up to that too
<ochosi> (many tasks, gah, tired)
<pleia2> knome: hm, looks like it only sends that reply to an address once (I tried to test again, got no reply, but I presume you did?
<pleia2> suppose it's no big deal
<pleia2> once they've emailed us once they know the drill, no need to tell them we're looking at it
<knome> pleia2, umm, there was a grace period bit
<knome> let me see if i can find that
<pleia2> oh ok
<pleia2> I made a thing http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
<knome> PM
<pleia2> thx
<knome> so i guess setting that to a week or so could be fine
<knome> or few days
<knome> or simply 0
<knome> or one per day..
<knome> see, i'm open to options
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> let's do 2 weeks
<pleia2> there
<knome> two pleia2's at the pad
<knome> o.o
<pleia2> I opened it at my desk earlier today
<bluesabre> double the writing power
<pleia2> my desk is all the way over there
<knome> :D
<knome> see the pad, a question
<knome> pleia2, easier to cross-examine with two questions?
<pleia2> maybe
<knome> first: How would you describe the way you use Xubuntu?
<knome> second: How would you describe yourself?
<pleia2> sure
<knome> then we could find out how creative people use xubuntu
<bluesabre> I use xubuntu at work now :D
<pleia2> \o/
<bluesabre> and one other person there is also using it.... slowly converting KY
<pleia2> "my partner makes me use it"
<knome> bluesabre, awesome
<ochosi> bluesabre: weee that's great!
<ochosi> maybe you can argue for a "free hour" per week to hack on xubuntu ;)
<knome> yay!
<knome> that idea gets the seal of knome's approval
<knome> and traditionally, that's stamped on the cheek of the idea's father/mother
 * knome stamps ochosi's cheek
<knome> *BLAM!*
<pleia2> hahah
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> pleia2, considering about the unemplyed/pensioner because i don't know if that's useful information for us
<pleia2> yeah, I'm not sure either
<knome> pleia2, does "humane sector" sound correct to you at all?
<pleia2> nope, I have no idea what that is :)
<ochosi> ouch
<knome> pleia2, like, healthcare, social services?
<pleia2> ah
<ochosi> yay, i fixed intelligent hiding for the panel \o/
<knome> pleia2, job you do with/for humans
<knome> versus working on a computer :)
<pleia2> I thought it meant NGO
<knome> oh, nope
<pleia2> I don't know how we call that in the US
<knome> maybe we could do one category for volunteers/non-profit organization workers
<knome> pleia2, we'll just use the finnish one then, "Sosiaali- ja terveysala"
<pleia2> haha
<pleia2> maybe "Humanitarian"
<pleia2> I clearly don't know what people do for jobs in this world
<knome> i happen to know that only because myself and my wife have a degree on that :P
<knome> and my sister...
<knome> and my sister's husband
<knome> and most of my friends
<knome> but other than that, me knowing it would be a pure accident!
<pleia2> buncha liberals
<knome> who said people who work with people are liberals ;)
<pleia2> :)
<knome> humanitarian doesn't include all kinds of voluntary tasks
<knome> am i a humanitarian because i don't ask pleia2 to pay me salary for building the xubuntu website?
<knome> btw, this is going deep ;)
<pleia2> even paid, helping people tends to be a bit of a liberal thing here, unless people are doing it through their religious institution
<pleia2> I had a very long day, going to get eyeballs away from computer for a bit
<knome> awwwh!
<knome> stop being so liberal and get back to work
<pleia2> haha
<knome> well, enjoy
<knome> let's see if i'm still here when you get back
<knome> <- 4am
<pleia2> :P
<pleia2> thanks
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: I've built and installed the package from https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfce4-xkb-plugin/lp-733563/+merge/214365
<bluesabre> however, how should the patch function? if I change the system font, that font does not budge.
<knome> pleia2, some comments on the pad
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, That's how it's meant to function AFAIK. It's been a few months since i tested it, so i'm not sure if it's the patch is fully broken of something else changed
<elfy> bluesabre: bug 1396804
<ubottu> bug 1396804 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Name For Thunar Settings Launcher Is Unclear (thunar-settings.desktop)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1396804
<ochosi> brainwash: gah, i thought you'd comment on that bug after our lengthy talk about it? ^
<ochosi> just to save others from wasting time on it
<elfy> ochosi: re that ^^ , seems like a daft reason to not deal with it - orage turns up 3 times if you look in whisker - but they aren't all called Orage only ;)
<bluesabre> ochosi: one option is to just hide the file manager preferences (they can still be accessed from within thunar)
<bluesabre> as in Hidden=True in the desktop file
<elfy> hi bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> hey elfy
<bluesabre> us holiday, so I'm around a bit longer than usual
<elfy> :)
<elfy> until bloated? :D
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: I'll have a closer look at it, but if that is how it is meant to function, I think that means it does nothing
<elfy> heh 
<elfy> re whiskermenu and application settings - I'd argue the case for NONE being visible tbh
<elfy> we don't have abiword prefs in there or x or y or z 
<elfy> just a couple for some reason
<elfy> and if you DID want settings for foo - the obvious place to find it would be in foo's menu somewhere
<bluesabre> yes, I agreee with that
<elfy> :)
<elfy> I'm not completely insane then ....
<elfy> bbl
<bluesabre> seeya
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah i know, but that's not extremely nice either...
<bluesabre> fwiw, typing file manager in whisker and hitting enter launches thunar and not the prefs, so not sure what the user is talking about there
<bluesabre> assuming whisker is not random in its activities
<ochosi> i guess it isn't
<ochosi> btw, i contacted graeme gott yesterday because there is no more bug tracker for whisker
<ochosi> and since he just pushed a few fixes and translations, i thought it's a good time to ask
<ochosi> also, i offered to set him up on git.xfce.org if he wants
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> then we could get him a bugzilla as well
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> and from the xubuntu perspective, it sucks to ship something without a bugtracker
<bluesabre> glad to see andrew making progress on this issue, https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm/+bug/1366534
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1366534 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "lightdm lefts a11y (at-spi*) process behind" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> ochosi: agreeed
<ochosi> my guess is he received too many feature-requests or something and then disabled it
<bluesabre> I know how that goes
<bluesabre> @knome
<ochosi> yeah
<meetingology> bluesabre: Error: "knome" is not a valid command.
<ochosi> can be frustrating
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: how much maintenance do you have to carry out on e.g. mugshot atm?
<bluesabre> dkessel: you'll be glad to know that I've nearly finished giving concise names to catfish widgets, and will have a clear mapping laid out as well
<bluesabre> ochosi: not much, I fix issues as they appear since its tiny
<ochosi> cause i was wondering whether we could set up a very basic UI for panel-switch together, i wouldn't expect that to be much maintenance either
<bluesabre> yeah, we could do that
<ochosi> doesn't have to happen this cycle, but i fear lderan won't get to it (at least he hasn't been around very much lately)
<ochosi> i've previously done mockups and i think i have a good idea of how the simplistic UI could look like
<bluesabre> will probably be around this weekend.  If you want to make a mockup or throw the glade file together, I can connect the dots
<bluesabre> ah
<ochosi> basically it's a load/save app
<bluesabre> where can I find said mockups?
<ochosi> i just realised i might've only uploaded one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/PanelLayoutSwitcher
<ochosi> i'd do it even more simplistic now
<ochosi> just a listview, no screenshot
<ochosi> it's easy enough to switch and try it, a screenshot/preview doesn't help too much i guess
<ochosi> it might be that the app itself isn't feature-complete, but that also depends on what we want
<bluesabre> fair enough
<bluesabre> I think we'll find what we need as we start building it
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i think that the basic functionality is enough
<bluesabre> might come up with a basic zip and manifest file for required plugins
<ochosi> e.g. checking for installed plugins would be one feature and issueing a warning
<bluesabre> ^
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> but otoh it doesn't really matter you know
<ochosi> cause if you're not having a plugin installed, it simply won't show in the panel
<ochosi> it's not like your desktop goes down in flames in that case
<bluesabre> yeah, but then there will be stupid bugs
<bluesabre> "where is the clock? I want my clock?"
<ochosi> stupid bugreports/ers you mean! ;)
<ochosi> checking for installed plugins might be a pain though
<bluesabre> maybe
<bluesabre> we'll check it out as we go
<ochosi> anyway, if we look into it too much, we might as well integrate it in the panel for real...
<ochosi> so yeah, i'd just do a very basic backup/restore thing
<bluesabre> ok
<bluesabre> if I get time, I'll get a basic implementation together this weekend
<bluesabre> should be a piece of cake
<bluesabre> or cheese
<ochosi> the command-line part of the app is fully functional already
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> cheese-cake!
<ochosi> yummy
<bluesabre> even better
 * ochosi rubs his belly
<bluesabre> where is ali's code fo that again?
<bluesabre> nv,
<ochosi> https://github.com/ali1234/panel-switch
<bluesabre> its on the wiki
<ochosi> actually the *code* is on github ;)
<bluesabre> ok, no reason not to work on that now
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> hehe
 * ochosi goes to the drawing board
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> heading out for family things now
<bluesabre> ping me with updates, or any bugs I need to get to... finally getting back into the xubuntu world
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> wb then :)
<ochosi> i'll ping you with the mockup once it's ready
<ochosi> bluesabre: ok, the wiki page has been updated with the new mockup: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/PanelLayoutSwitcher
<ochosi> bluesabre: i added a few notes below on how it should behave, if you have questions just ping me
<habhatti> hello
<GridCube> hi habhatti 
<habhatti> I'm not sure whether this is a bug in 15.04, but the boot screen is clipped on both sides.
<ochosi> habhatti: both sides == left+right?
<habhatti> ochosi: Yes.
<ochosi> might be a driver issue anyway, unfortunately plymouth isn't very flexible/clever in that respect
<habhatti> It's full-screen on 14.04, clipped in 14.10/15.04
<ochosi> but if you wanna try another plymouth theme, e.g. ubuntu's and verify whether it works with that, i can take a look
<ochosi> a-ha
<ochosi> odd
<ochosi> well i remember adding support for multi-monitor setups, but i believe i did that pre-14.04
<habhatti> dell inspiron 5521, laptop screen
<ochosi> right, but the graphics card/driver might be more important
<ochosi> but anyway, try a different plymouth theme for starters
<ochosi> you could even try the 14.04 theme in 15.04
<habhatti> sure, um, xubuntu-plymouth-theme?
<jjfrv8> ochosi, got another powerman question for you... http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/powermaninactivity.php
<jjfrv8> how come the smallest value you can set "Put system to sleep when inactive for" is 14?
<jjfrv8> you can set it lower in Settings Editor, and it does work for that duration, but when you move the slider to "Never", it goes back to 14 in Settings Editor
<ochosi> that looks like a bug
<ochosi> but yeah, the minimum time is 14 minutes
<ochosi> that's a historical setting, not sure why exactly that amount of time was chosen
<ochosi> actually <15 is supposed to be "never"
<ochosi> lemme quickly confirm that in the code...
<jjfrv8> ok
<jjfrv8> reason I asked was because I was trying to set the inactivity time to something low enough for the testcase and only way to do it was with Settings Editor
<jjfrv8> and then I saw that it went back to 14 when you put the slider to Never
<ochosi> ok, so <=14 means never
<ochosi> setting it lower worked?
<jjfrv8> yes
<ochosi> hm, interesting
<ochosi> as long as never works as expected, i guess it's ok
<ochosi> those who fiddle with the settings via xfconf are on their own anyway ;)
<jjfrv8> understand. I'll let efly look at the testcase to see if he thinks it's too messy that way.
<ochosi> habhatti: i meant plymouth-theme-ubuntu-logo (if you wanna try ubuntu), if you wanna install the 14.04 package then grab the older version off packages.ubuntu.com: plymouth-theme-xubuntu-logo
<jjfrv8> elfy too
<ochosi> well at least it's a nice workaround for not having to wait 15mins
<jjfrv8> right
<elfy> bluesabre: just so you know - thunar prefs it at top of my list 
<habhatti> ochosi: thanks, I'll try that out right now
<elfy> jjfrv8: re testcases - basically we have to test what we have - so if there's nothing between 15 and never - then just write it to match
<elfy> as long YOU'VE no bugs when YOU write it - then that's as much as can be done 
<elfy> hope that makes sense
<jjfrv8> yup. thanks.
<elfy> cool - thanks for working on it :)
<jjfrv8> good learning experience :)
<elfy> :)
<jjfrv8> efly, I'll redo that little section and probably have an MP for you tomorrow.
<elfy> ok - cool :)
<elfy> you really should tab complete :D
<jjfrv8> gah
<elfy> it's ok jjfrv8 - I added efly to my ping list just for you :p
<jjfrv8> what an honor
<elfy> lol
<pleia2> knome: thanks, replied to your comments on the pad
<pleia2> social mediaed the Xfce survey links
<elfy> hi pleia2 - and thanks - you remind me of a thing to do :)
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> watch MST3K all day and make a big dinner?
<elfy> mmmm
<elfy> acronyms ... 
<elfy> ha - if only - some simple fare here today :)
<pleia2> abbreviation actually ;)
<elfy> :)
<dkessel> good evening
<dkessel> hmm i have this on vivid: when dragging a running application around in the task bar, a portion of the panel (for my it is where whiskermenu is ) gets replaced with a black box that only gets repainted when moving the mouse cursor over it
<dkessel> elfy? ;) i know you're running vivid + staging ppa too
<dkessel> bluesabre: thanks for working on the widget names. i hope i will get to continuing work on the tests soon
<elfy> dkessel: I can't confirm that one
<dkessel> elfy: meh
<dkessel> i'll try in a vm....
<dkessel> hm. happens there too
<dkessel> looks like this: https://imgur.com/DHBseQZ
<elfy> I'll try in vm - still can confirm here - but this machine has staging ppa and a non-default panel
<dkessel> Noskcaj: thanks for uploading the new version of xfce4-systemload-plugin the other day; it fixed a bug for me :)
<Noskcaj> no problem
<elfy> hi Noskcaj :)
<Noskcaj> hey elfy 
<elfy> dkessel: ok - still unable to confirm on this machine - but can confirm in vm 
<dkessel> elfy: \o/ any suggestion about the correct package to use when filing it?
<elfy> in a word ... no
<dkessel> ok i'll take the one that probably directly reacts on my mouse dragging
<elfy> not panel or desktop I guess - reloading those doesn't help 
<dkessel> hmm ok i would have taken panel
<elfy> dkessel: just to confirm - you don't JUST see this in vm?
<dkessel> elfy: no no... i first (and reproducably) saw it on my real machine. and still see it there.
<elfy> okey doke :)
<elfy> dkessel: are you running staging as well? 
<dkessel> elfy: yes
<elfy> ok - live doesn't obviously
<elfy> so that's both then 
<elfy> I wonder 
<dkessel> hmm i'll try moving the whiskermenu icon around and see what happens
<elfy> so I added windows buttons - not doing it still
<dkessel> hmm funny. it happens to some panel items, but not to all. whiskermenu and the places-plugin get "blacked out"
<dkessel> no matter where they are
<elfy> not seeing that#
<elfy> dkessel: not seeing places blacked out here
<elfy> anyway definitely an issue 
<elfy> ochosi: not sure what to file this against ^^ - effectively it seems that moving something that's in the window button plugin causes the whisker icon to blacken - mousing over it then brings icon back
<dkessel> elfy: done - care to confirm? bug 1397095
<ubottu> bug 1397095 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "dragging applications in the task bar causes repaint errors" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397095
<dkessel> we can always change the package
<elfy> dkessel: is your panel in hardware default? 
<dkessel> no. i added some stuff. but otherwise mostly default i guess. no custom color, size or something
<habhatti> ochosi: I couldn't test the plymouth theme from 14.04 - I did an apt-get update today and now there isn't a boot screen at all :/
<elfy> dkessel: it's in the same place - at the top though? 
<elfy> evening habhatti 
<dkessel> elfy: yes
<habhatti> elfy: hi
<dkessel> moved to bottom and middle of screen... no change
<elfy> dkessel: ok thanks - I'll add some comments 
<dkessel> fie
<dkessel> fine
<elfy> dkessel: thanks - commented  :)
<knome> pleia2, umm, didn't i do that already? :)
<elfy> evening knome 
<knome> hello elfy 
<elfy> dkessel: I assume you didn't add staging to the virtual machine 
 * dkessel checks
<elfy> I assume that to be the case - if it's not let me know and I'll unedit the bug :)
<elfy> I see it with today's daily
<dkessel> elfy: yup, no staging in the vm
<elfy> cool
<brainwash> ochosi: yes, I did plan to add a comment, like today after work and some testing with xubuntu
<brainwash> we cannot hide the entry -> breaks classic menu I think
<brainwash> even the whisker one, the entry will be missing in the settings category
<ochosi> yeah, question is whether it's really needed though. it's still exposed through thunar
<elfy> brainwash: page not found for the gottcode issue linked in https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10656
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10656 in General "Dragging a panel window button turns external panel plugin black" [Normal,New]
<elfy> evening ochosi 
<brainwash> mmh, lets remove the settings category again and solve the problem :)
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, gottcode deactivated the issues on github
<brainwash> bad idea
<ochosi> i already sent him an email about it
<elfy> I just really don't see the need to have thunar preferences anywhere but in thunar tbh
<brainwash> but I've reported it on the Xfce bug tracker, so the other report is not needed (did no contain any additional info)
<elfy> brainwash: okey doke 
<elfy> ochosi: the only thing in thunar prefs I could see a need for - removable drives and media - has it's own entry
<ochosi> that's a separate desktop file anyway
<elfy> yep
<elfy> from my pov - if we have thunar prefs, then there's no reason to not have abiword prefs too - etc
<elfy> and that would be silly :)
<brainwash> the thunar preference entry is meant to be shown in the settings manager
<elfy> why?
<brainwash> Xfce design decision
<elfy> we're not xfce 
<brainwash> but we use the upstream source code
<elfy> any argument that can be made to include thunar pref's - can be made for anything else
<elfy> I know that - but we're not xfce - we're xubuntu
<brainwash> the entry was not visible all these years.. until we've added the settings menu category back to the menu structure, so settings entries like gparted are searchable via whisker search
<elfy> and not being able to use what we provide - whiskermenu - to open something without having to choose from exactly named entries ... 
<elfy> brainwash: yes I know that - but Xubuntu uses whiskermenu - and it breaks in this instance because 2 different things have the same name
<brainwash> it's a problem, but there is no easy solution
<elfy> yes there is 
<elfy> remove thunar prefs for us
<elfy> because we're xubuntu not xfce ;)
<brainwash> and desktop (preferences)?
<brainwash> and other preference entries
<elfy> so you're arguing to add abiword and all the other things we use into the settings manager? 
<elfy> there is no sensible reason to have an applications preferences in the settings manager I can think of
<brainwash> no, if we hide thunar prefs entry, then we should hide desktop prefs also
<elfy> why?
<elfy> can you use desktop as an app? 
<elfy> I can't 
<elfy> it's just there doing it's thing for me 
<elfy> file manager is an application 
<brainwash> but "desktop" opens the desktop settings window
<brainwash> it does not start the desktop managing app
<elfy> I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion over this 
<habhatti-phone> +1
<elfy> let's have firefox/t.bird/mousepad/abiword/gnumeric and all the rest prefs in setting manager too 
<brainwash> we basically want to make the settings category searchable in whisker menu, but exclude all the Xfce related prefs entries
<brainwash> ^
<elfy> no - not really - but if that's what it takes *shrug*
<elfy> if we didn't have 2 different things with exactly the same name it wouldn't matter - but we do 
<brainwash> people only complained about things like gparted not being searchable via whisker menu, not about thunar prefs or desktop prefs
<elfy> that's not a reason to change it :)
<elfy> it's just highlighted an issue 
<habhatti-phone> The duplicate entries for thunar are confusing.
<elfy> of course they are - no way to know which is which currently
<habhatti-phone> Btw, does your boot screen show?
<elfy> no
<habhatti-phone> Hmm, well that makes this difficult.
<elfy> but, it would if I used nouveau and didn't boot without quiet splash
<habhatti-phone> I'm trying to get mine back. It stopped showing after I updated today.
<elfy> I rarely see splash screen tbh habhatti-phone 
<habhatti-phone> It was clipped on the left and right from 14.10+, so I'm wondering whether I should report it. Seems trivial. *shrug*
<elfy> I tend towards reporting - but I'd likely test it with ubuntu see if I was to see the same thing
<habhatti-phone> Issue is not present in xub 14.04
<elfy> habhatti-phone: is this with 15.04? what graphics card is it? 
<brainwash> ochosi: another idea: we could enable the application description (comment parameter) in whisker menu
<brainwash> one "file manager" entry would have the description "Configure the Thunar file manager"
<habhatti-phone> elfy: 14.10 and 15.04 - Intel HD 4000 / Radeon 8730M
<elfy> habhatti-phone: I'd report it for 15.04 at least, I'd check if you see the same in Ubuntu - more chance of getting it fixed if it's seen there 
<habhatti-phone> elfy: ok, thanks. I'll install Ubuntu and check.
<elfy> habhatti-phone: is this hardware or vm? 
<habhatti-phone> elfy: hardware
<elfy> not sure I'd go so far as to actually install ubuntu to check :)
<brainwash> ochosi: not the best idea, but it would make the menu more newbie friendly which could be somewhat nice
<elfy> brainwash: if we're going to just fiddle with names then what's wrong with File Manager Preferences
<habhatti-phone> elfy: Curiosity killed the tester. ;-)
<elfy> or what it 'appears' to be called
<elfy> habhatti-phone: lol
<brainwash> elfy: consistency seems to be problem
<brainwash> and translations issues
<elfy> yep - point
<elfy> I still think we shouldn't show it at all though ;)
<brainwash> yes, this is a valid solution
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> this solution though still has us randomly having this setting entry for an app ;)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-28
<bluesabre> dkessel: the renamed widgets have been committed, planning for a new release this weekend... https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~catfish-search/catfish-search/trunk/revision/338
<bluesabre> ochosi: your mockup lacks the ability to import, export, and delete
<bluesabre> maybe something in this direction? https://imgur.com/rbhM9nr
<bluesabre> the first two would be distributor provided (/usr) and thus have the delete option missing
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i wanted to keep that part as simple as possible for starters. if you want to add a layout, copy it to the folder, if you wanna remove one, delete it from the folder
<ochosi> not sure whether exporting is really needed, i mean people can always navigate to the folder and then send/share it from there
<ochosi> (at least in the first step)
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/xfce/+packages?field.name_filter=xfdash For whoever wants to copy to -extras.
<ochosi> bluesabre: i wonder what we'll do about xfce4.12 if it gets released for 15.04 for our LTS. wonder whether we can backport most of that since we have 4.11 components there and it should be all compatible
<ochosi> Unit193: xfdash copied, thanks!
<Unit193> Sure, and thanks.
<Unit193> ochosi: While I have you, backport from vivid: https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/xfce/+packages?field.name_filter=thunar ?
<ochosi> ok, copying
<Unit193> (That's more for smooth transitioning from the version currently there, to vivid.  Utopic has an "older" version.)  BTW, anymore packages I should be tracking for you?
<ochosi> hm, there is a new xfce panel plugin coming up
<ochosi> http://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-hardware-monitor-plugin/
<ochosi> debian might also be interested in that ^
<ochosi> and we might want it too
<Unit193> Can't say about Debian, but since it is Freeze time, not right now.  Well, if it's interesting to "us", sure I can take a look (unless someone else beats me to it.)
<ochosi> yeah, i think it'd be nice to throw it in extras for us to check out and then try to get it into xubuntu if we like it
<bluesabre> ochosi: well, we can probably convince the SRU folks that it would be handy... but we'll see if we actually get that far before April :D
<bluesabre> heading out now, bbl
<ochosi> bluesabre: wowza, andrew has lotsa branches pending... unfortunately in the next 7 days i won't really have time, but then (the latest) we should do a big review
<skellat> ochosi, slickymasterWork: Where should we direct LP Bug 1397353 for further disposition?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1397353 in Ubuntu Translations "xfce4: Typo in the french "suspend" translation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397353
<slickymasterWork> skellat, I'm already on it
<skellat> slickymasterWork: ack
<slickymasterWork> skellat, it's strange though. Just installed the French language pack and the translation for 'Suspend' is correct
<skellat> slickymasterWork: I think most of what caused that originated in #ubuntu-locoteams earlier today oddly enough -- http://paste.ubuntu.com/9285084/
<slickymasterWork> thanks for that skellat 
<brainwash> bluesabre: didn't you check the code of the release upgrader which explains the reason behind bug 1314153 ?
<ubottu> bug 1314153 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "XUbuntu reinstalls all default packages on release update" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1314153
<brainwash> your last comment does not reflect this, but I'm pretty sure that you did some investigation
<elfy> brainwash: I have memories of that discusssion in here 
<brainwash> the conclusion was that reinstalling the packages is the intended behavior (according to source code)
<elfy> iirc - but I didn't take a whole lot of notice tbh
<brainwash> and all ubuntu spins behave the same way
<elfy> I'd have even less idea what anyone else does :)
<elfy> I'm never really in a position to upgrade anything that's been used and abused ;)
<brainwash> heh, just want to close yet another report, or at least remove our package from the affects list
<elfy> oh
<elfy> that IS the bug I remember the discussion in 
<slickymasterWork> skellat: re: bug 1397353 I reported also upstream (https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11338)
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11338 in Applications Menu "Typo in the french "Suspend" label translation" [Normal,New]
<ubottu> bug 1397353 in Xfce panel "xfce4: Typo in the french "suspend" translation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397353
<slickymasterWork> but since xfce packages translations are maintained in https://www.transifex.com/, there's not much the team can do, unless there's a skillful french speaker among our ranks -> ochosi do comes to mind 
<slickymasterWork> knome, regarding the alternate format destination for the -docs, take a look at this -> http://daps.sourceforge.net/
<slickymasterWork> it's 100% open source and they claim they provide a tool set for easy creation and publication of DocBook sources in PDF, EPUB, man pages, and other formats with a single command
<knome> sounds like overhead
<knome> i'm pretty sure there are faster ways to do that
<slickymasterWork> there you are
<knome> !info dbtoepub
<ubottu> dbtoepub (source: dbtoepub): DocBook XML to .epub converter. In component universe, is extra. Version 0+svn9904-1 (utopic), package size 8 kB, installed size 71 kB
<slickymasterWork> but that just provide the DocBook XML to .epub conversion, right? 
<knome> yep
<knome> i don't know anything about that software
<knome> just found it :P
<slickymasterWork> I'll take a look at it also
<slickymasterWork> btw knome, how's your french skills?
<knome> none
<slickymasterWork> lol, join the club
<knome> ask sidi-alcaniz 
<slickymasterWork> ?! is he the valencia one?
<knome> yes
<knome> :P
<knome> all sidi are the same
<slickymasterWork> sidi-alcaniz, do you think you can manage to find the time to take a look at bug 1397353
<ubottu> bug 1397353 in Xfce panel "xfce4: Typo in the french "suspend" translation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397353
<slickymasterWork> pretty please
<knome> slickymasterWork, i guess just the translation part?
<slickymasterWork> that's what I'm speaking of knome 
<pleia2> order with unixstickers has been placed :)
<pleia2> they gave us a $380 voucher to cover stickers, t-shirt and tracked shipping
<pleia2> plus the voucher allowed me to toss some of my own (I paid for) goodies in too
<dkessel> nice
<knome> pleia2, WOOT!
<knome> that's a lot of money
<pleia2> yes, they've been quite generous
<knome> also, see my further comments on the pad
<pleia2> replied
<knome> right,
<knome> so why ask that if it's not meaningful?
<pleia2> it is still meaningful
 * knome shrugs
<knome> more meaningful would be "how long have you been using xubuntu" 
<pleia2> at least is is to me, as someone who wants to build marketing materials to our userbase, and has no idea if most of them work in schools or offices or jungles
<pleia2> I really want this one to be simple :)
<knome> many people work at offices, if that's what we want to know, maybe we should forget the professions and ask what they do for living/
<knome> study, work in office, work outside office, unemployed
<knome> in my opinion, it isnt' "simple" if we ask people if they are a videographer or accountant ;)
<knome> i can see the point, just not too much use for the information
<pleia2> I guess we disagree
<knome> i mean i don't have a hard time asking that...
<knome> it's fine by me, i'm just wondering if there is a better question to ask
<pleia2> it's not all about applications, it's about people too, marketing is a bit touchy feely too
<ali1234> how do you use ubuntu? office, entertainment, creative, development, sys admin
<pleia2> ah, entertainment is a good one (Mythbuntu comes to mind)
 * pleia2 adds
<ali1234> if they tick sys admin, also ask how many machines they admin and whether those machines run xfce
<knome> education!
<ali1234> entertainment means watching videos, listening to music, web browsing, gaming
<pleia2> ali1234: asking how many gets too complicated, we want 1-2 question, max
<pleia2> a survey later in the cycle will ask more
<ali1234> education would fall under office if using it for school admin, or sys admin if you run a network for the kids to use
<pleia2> they can select multiple checkboxes :)
<ali1234> yes
<pleia2> ali1234: the etherpad is here if you want to follow along: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
<knome> ali1234, i was talking about a different question before, pleia2 added this to the other
<ali1234> first question: ugh
<ali1234> skill level and use are two different things
<pleia2> ali1234: again, they can select multiple
<Unit193> Mythbuntu uses parts of Xfce for that matter.
<pleia2> Unit193: hence the comment :)
<pleia2> knome: I'm at my desk with a printer, have printing experiments for me?
<pleia2> (also, day off, and the husband can't be bothered to help me with house things yet)
<knome> pleia2, i guess at this point just pastebin your 'lpoptions -l'
<ali1234> i think the survey should be task-centric
<pleia2> knome: http://paste.ubuntu.com/9288581/
<knome> ouch.
<knome> ok, i'll be back with you, you have one of those seemingly crappier printers
<knome> sorry :(
<pleia2> it's an old Brother one routed through network printing
<knome> printers with .FB modes can print stuff correctly... without those, they need special files
<knome> well at least if you want to print near the edge
<pleia2> I don't think I'll actually be printing much myself, what I want is for it to print ok with vistaprint or whatever
<knome> heh, yeah
<ochosi> slickymaster: while i've learned and used french, i'm not sure i'd wanna do translations to french. i've done it once or twice but didn
<ochosi> slickymaster: 't feel too confident about it
<ali1234> i don't like this: "Power user; I customize the environment and use the command line repeatedly"
<ali1234> i don't think customizing things is a sign of power user
<ali1234> i don't like to customize things at all
<Unit193> I generally only do when I'm not supposed to.
<pleia2> we'll leave a comment section at the bottom if people wish to clarify, and there's an Other box for each question if something doesn't fit quite right
<pleia2> but generally power users do customize things
<knome> ali1234, is there anything positive you find in the survey, or are we simply sucking at creating surveys?
<ali1234> i like the idea of it, i just think those should be two options
<ali1234> maybe strongly disagree ... strongly agree?
<knome> we are trying to limit the options, if we give 200 different options, we're not going to learn much of our userbase
<knome> if we have 5-10 options, the results tell a lot more about our userbase
<ali1234> the answers are good, i think the questions suck though :)
<knome> disagree/agree -questions tend to go to either extremes or the middle, depending on the question
<ali1234> yes, but it cuts down on the number of options you need
<knome> so it's as useful to ask yes/no, and that's easier to examine
<ali1234> like you can replace "i am a power user" <tick> and "i am a casual user" <tick" this just "i am a power user" <agree/disagree> 
<knome> i don't think there are many overlapping options really.
<knome> ali1234, i think that'd skew the results.
<ali1234> the results will always be skewed
<knome> well, whatever.
<knome> if you want to help imrpoving the survey, you can add your own proposal for a question in the pad
<ali1234> done :)
<knome> thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-29
<nerdistmonk> anyone awake?
<knome> slickymaster, Unit193 pushed a branch that has preliminary support for epub creation of the docs
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-30
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Could you please upload the new weather-plugin release? The bzr branch is broken and it seems pointless to make a debdiff and upload bug for it
<Logan_> hi Noskcaj 
<Noskcaj> hey Logan_ 
<bluesabre> hey Noskcaj
<bluesabre> hiya Logan_
<Noskcaj> hey bluesabre 
<Logan_> hey bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> sure, can do, will do
<Unit193> Howdy Logan_.
<Noskcaj> ty
<Logan_> hi Unit193 
<Noskcaj> Have i missed anything these last few days?
<bluesabre> hey Unit193
<Unit193> Hello bluesabre.
<bluesabre> ok, I think we finished the greetings, anybody else lurking?
<bluesabre> :D
 * Unit193 couldn't help it. :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: is unstable also in freeze?
<Unit193> bluesabre: You don't freeze unstable exactly.  It's still a stage for testing, but you still need the ack.  Also generally new stuff doesn't get pushed in, as you block your staging area, and generally are only looking for bugs to fix at this point.
<bluesabre> ok, just checking since Corsac usually has xfce things updated super quickly in unstable
<Unit193> Right, that'd explain it.
<bluesabre> k, thanks
<Unit193> < Corsac> no new upstream for now || < Corsac> that also mean in case we need to fix something in testing we have to use testing-proposed-updates, which is painful
<bluesabre> good to know
<bluesabre> I'
<bluesabre> ll pay more attention to xfce releases now :)
<Unit193> If you weren't so busy at $dayjob, I'd bother you about something else in your packageset. :P
<bluesabre> go ahead and ping about anything that needs to be uploaded in the packageset... I can usually find time to package existing things
<Unit193> 1357217 seems stalled.
<bluesabre> Unit193: poke
<bluesabre> I think that frequently the "NOCONFIGURE=1 xdg-autogen" has been removed from several packages, was this because of some libtool breakage?  Couldn't build the weather plugin in vivid until I did that
<bluesabre> see bottom of http://paste.ubuntu.com/9314489/ for reference
<bluesabre> or, was that likely added because of the patches we had?
<bluesabre> ah, yup
<bluesabre>   * debian/rules: run xdt-autogen and clean up afterwards due to the libm build
<bluesabre>     fix.
<bluesabre> nvm, go back to sleep
<knome> o.o
<jjfrv8> elfy, I must have botched something with my local branch. Made your change and tried to re-push and it said branches had diverged.
<jjfrv8> I re-pulled, did a "bzr merge" and other things but they didn't help. How about if I delete the original MP and resubmit?
<elfy> jjfrv8: okey doke
<elfy> jjfrv8: thanks :) 
<elfy> all done now 
<jjfrv8> great. thank YOU.
<elfy> :)
<jjfrv8> ochosi, sorry to bug you again... Can you check my sample powerman screenshot on the wiki? It's much larger than the desktop version that was uploaded earlier.
<jjfrv8> I don't know if there's anything to be done about that. You can't resize the dialog and if you scale the image in gimp, it doesn't look so hot.
<jjfrv8> ochosi, next question... do you need to do anything to get other connected devices to show up in powerman? I've plugged in every gadget I have and none of them appears.
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: uploaded the weather plugin to vivid
<bluesabre> bbl
<ochosi> jjfrv8: i'll take a look at the screenshot
<ochosi> in terms of devices, it depends on which ones are supported by upower
<ochosi> e.g ipods are supported
<ochosi> and some wireless mice show up too
<ochosi> in fact this should be even better in vivid, because upower0.99 has better devices support from what i read
<ochosi> e.g. via bluetooth
<jjfrv8> hmmm, I'm not an Apple guy so I guess I'm out of luck there. :)
<ochosi> no problem, i can help out with those screenshots
<ochosi> and bluesabre also had a wireless mouse iirc
<ochosi> also, the size of your screenshot (it's the second one, right?) is totally fine
<ochosi> theoretically we could do two versions of the preferences page, one for desktops one for laptops
<ochosi> but i dunno, might be overkill
<ochosi> bluesabre: when you wanna take another look at panel-switch, lemme know. your mockup was nice, but i'd really try to start out barebone. the more functions we add, the more bugreports and feature requests we get.
<jjfrv8> ok, that's good on the screenshot. I'll proceed just with laptop instructions and we can change our minds later, if need be.
<jjfrv8> ochosi, fwiw, on vivid I tried a Microsoft wireless mouse, a Canon camera, a Sandisk MP3 playe
<jjfrv8> oh wait, not finished typing :)
<ochosi> actually, the laptop version is more important anyway
<ochosi> and it shows all options
<ochosi> there are no desktop-specific options
<ochosi> hm, i think logitec mice work
<jjfrv8> and a samsung bluetooth cellphone and none of them worked.
<ochosi> camera doesn't show up, cause it usually doesn't charge via usb
<jjfrv8> oh and a kindle
<ochosi> yeah, nothing we can do about that in the powerman
<ochosi> it's all up to upower
<ochosi> did you try with upower0.99 on vivid? i think that update came in fairly recently
<jjfrv8> 0.99.1-3
<ochosi> mkay
<ochosi> maybe the xfpm package hasn't been updated for upower0.99
<ochosi> Noskcaj: ^ ?
<ochosi> brb
<bluesabre> ochosi: xfpm is updated for upower0.99 in vivid
<bluesabre> http://packages.ubuntu.com/vivid/xfce4-power-manager
<bluesabre> ochosi: yes, will start barebone on panel switch
<bluesabre> not sure if I will get it today, we're doing a lot of running around
<Unit193> bluesabre: Well, re-poke I guess, or not. :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes, please re-poke
<bluesabre> my memory fails me :)
<Unit193> Alright, so does the question you had still stand, or did you solve it?
<bluesabre> I solved it
<bluesabre> it was about the weather plugin, worked my way backwards to figure everything out
<bluesabre> gotta run now, bbabl
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, ty
<Unit193> bluesabre: Other reasons are to update config.(sub,guess) and other files for new archs.
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xchat-indicator/0.3.11-0ubuntu7 heh.
<jjfrv8> ochosi, at your leisure can you take a look at Preferences and see if I'm even in the ballpark?
<jjfrv8> bbl
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-23
<ochosi> flocculant: i'd say if adwaita exposes it too, then it
<ochosi> 's for sure not a shimmer-themes problem
<ochosi> i'm more afraid it could be an xfwm4 issue, but i seriously hope it's "just" gtk3
<flocculant> ochosi: from what I've read - it's not just us, u-gnome, ubuntu 
<flocculant> ochosi: marked mine a dupe of one that's got upstream linked to gnome-bugs
<flocculant> and seb bacher has seen that one 
<slickymasterWork> knome, krytarik, saw the MP
<slickymasterWork> will review it tonight, when I get home
<slickymasterWork> and it won't be a sillyyyyy review knome :P
<knome> slickymasterWork, it will, because i have already done the technical review (and made sure it works), and there isn't really much for the content side to ACK
<ochosi> flocculant: ok, that is comforting to hear
<flocculant> ochosi: seen more now - they think it's an ubuntu specific patch, and I thought I'd let you know as soon as I read stuff :)
<krytarik> knome: Just notice we are copying too much with the new 'common-libs' target, but we did before too. :P  Also, if you haven't done it yet, and aren't opposed to it, I'm gonna try and merge the startpage CSS with the main one.  Will have another diff upcoming.
<knome> krytarik, just don't :P
<knome> krytarik, i *want* to keep the stuff that is there, separate
<knome> krytarik, at least for now, before i do the revamp for the abstract or whatever
<krytarik> Good, less work for me, I suppose. :P
<knome> hah
<krytarik> However, here is the new, complete technical diff: http://paste.openstack.org/show/NeQmvZTwrGe1TSONcNVD/
<ochosi> flocculant: sure,that's cool!
<krytarik> knome: â
<krytarik> knome: Did you fix the startpage style issues I mentioned yet though?
<knome> krytarik, no, i didn't
<knome> krytarik, and what "complete"? is it more complete than your MP and my MP?
<krytarik> Well, you asked me for a technical review of yours - and I posted a diff yesterday, and this is an extension to that.
<knome> if you want to further changes, do another MP that depends on mine please...
<knome> :P
<krytarik> Particularly, as I mentioned, fixes that *everything* in 'libs-common' is copied.
<knome> sigh :)
<knome> i don't think we're really building the startpage without the docs
<krytarik> Huh?  Look what else is in there.
<krytarik> I'm fine with copying too many images for the startpage, that is.
<knome> just let's merge what we have now
<knome> then you can do the diff on top of that
<knome> right?
<knome> :)
<pleia2> knome: thanks for reviewing the post
<knome> pleia2, np
<knome> pleia2, fwiw, i didn't do the changes related to things i specifically highlighted to you
 * pleia2 will make edits and things in a bit
<knome> cheers
<pleia2> nods
<krytarik> knome: I messed the latest diff up again, of course - no proper testing and checking this time. >_<
<krytarik> + a bit
<krytarik> However, that doesn't matter anyway right now.
<krytarik> ( http://paste.openstack.org/show/k6n6d1JB59CwMEMdUtRP/ )
<krytarik> Fixed the bottom border of the startpage too.
<pleia2> knome: post updated and with photos added if you want to have a look before I hit publish
<knome> pleia2, just a sec
<pleia2> no rush :)
<knome> pleia2, looks good to me, you can go when you are ready
<pleia2> yay
<pleia2> https://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-at-freegeek-chicago/
<pleia2> knome: want to tweet?
<pleia2> I fb and g+
<knome> yeah, i just logged in
<pleia2> :)
<knome> and yeah, we need the blog entries on the front page sooner or later
<knome> it's really hidden now
<knome> (and in the menu)
<knome> tweeted
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> ty
 * pleia2 back2work
<slickymaster> krytarik, knome, flocculant pushed up to revision 490
<slickymaster> weren't you also to do a MP, knome?
<flocculant> he did afaik
<slickymaster> you're right flocculant, Found it
<slickymaster> knome, do you want to wait for krytarik's ack or can I just go ahead and merge https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/xubuntu-docs/startpage-common-libs/+merge/278264?
<krytarik> slickymaster: I posted a diff earlier to fix some issues.
<krytarik> ( http://paste.openstack.org/show/k6n6d1JB59CwMEMdUtRP/ )
<slickymaster> so everything is ok on your side, I assume krytarik 
<krytarik> slickymaster: It's not applied yet.
<slickymaster> it's merged already krytarik 
<slickymaster> knome's branch is dependent on  your branch which is merged npw
<slickymaster> * now
<krytarik> slickymaster: I'm referring to knome's MP, of course.
<slickymaster> missunderstood you
<knome> slickymaster, just merge mine when you are ready
<knome> slickymaster, krytarik ack's
<krytarik> Heh.
<knome> krytarik, once he's done, push a new MP with your changes
<krytarik> knome: To fix yours?
<knome> krytarik, well if there were errors in mine, then yes
<knome> krytarik, or whatever you were planning to stack on top of it
<slickymaster> done knome 
<krytarik> knome: Isn't this 'DONE' too?: "[knome] Move the Strategy Document to the contributor documentation with necessary formatting changes: INPROGRESS".
<knome> krytarik, yes and no
<knome> maybe i should split it up
<krytarik> knome: Since you are there, can you set mine to 'DONE' too? :P
<knome> lol
<knome> done
<krytarik> Ta.
<krytarik> I was just in the editor then, that is.
<knome> ;)=
<sidi> oh god i forgot about stupid CSD. Do you allow CSD on Xubuntu or do you force SSD?
<Unit193> Luckily Ubuntu patches a few of them out, but otherwise...
<sidi> GNOME apps have them?
<sidi> (brb going home...)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-24
<krytarik> knome, slickymaster: As I indicated earlier, you'll have to adapt the docs' translation settings to the new path and template name of the user docs now: https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/xenial/+lang/pt
<krytarik> Or that might work automatically: https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/+imports
<krytarik> Well, part of it at least.
<flocculant> knome: further to earlier discussion - moved links from qa page, added a note linking to references page. If we don't want to do that let me know and I'll delete the proposal
<slickymasterWork> I just approved those in the import queue krytarik 
<flocculant> hi slickymasterWork 
<slickymasterWork> hi flocculant 
<krytarik> slickymasterWork: Change it here, then import the new .pot?: https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/xenial/+pots/desktop-guide/+edit
<slickymasterWork> krytarik, not quite sure I understand what you want
<slickymasterWork> do you want me to replace the translation domain and the path of the template in the source tree?
<sidi> you guys using the Default xfwm theme, right?
<sidi> from 14.04 to 15.10
<krytarik> slickymasterWork: There is no 'desktop-guide' translation template anymore now, it's now 'user-docs'.
<slickymasterWork> I know that, krytarik 
<slickymasterWork> that's not what I'm asking
<slickymasterWork> what I'm asking is the actual fields you want editedÂ´
<krytarik> slickymasterWork: s/desktop-guide/user-docs/g, basically.
<flocculant> libgoa being installed because fuse changes it seems
<slickymasterWork> in "Template name:", "Translation domain:" and "Path of the template in the source tree, including filename.:"
<krytarik> slickymasterWork: Yes.
<slickymasterWork> imported krytarik 
<slickymasterWork> well, sort of
<slickymasterWork> it's approved and will be imported as soon as the LP hamsters feel like it
<krytarik> lol
<flocculant> oh - what bizarre reason is it that makes the links title not show in the contents in that ^^ which turned up at a really opportune time :D
<krytarik> flocculant: Because you made it a sub-section of 'Launchpad'. :D
<flocculant> krytarik: thanks :D
<flocculant> I got splinters there ... 
<pleia2> knome: meetings are too early for me to make it to these days, so should find time to chat about offer I got back from gandi
<knome> pleia2, i'm around
<pleia2> so, gandi can give us some free credits, and a good discount on buying more, but as I played with server options it doesn't really get us anything better than just paying for a cheap linode
<knome> yeah...
<knome> i wonder if canonical has any preference over hosting providers for stuff they pay
<pleia2> do they pay for anything?
<pleia2> they have datacenter space, I assumed they just put everything there
<knome> i know i read something about them wanting to use provider/shop X when using the community fund
<knome> there's at least some QA effort going where they want non-canonical server space
<pleia2> digital ocean has been popular with people lately (Unit193 mentioned them)
<knome> balloons could maybe give some insight on this
<knome> he might've mentioned that kubuntu did something non-canonical too
<knome> but i don't remember the details, or much else
<pleia2> shall I follow up with him?
<knome> i'll ask him to join us here
<knome> invited in PM
<pleia2> k
<pleia2> and I'll start spreading the social media word about our Testing session this weekend
<knome> mmh
 * balloons pops in
<knome> pleia2, ping
<pleia2> o/ balloons 
<pleia2> balloons: we're looking at options for some hosting that we'd likely request community donations funds for
<pleia2> balloons: happen to know what other folks doing simliar things have done? what providers they're using?
<pleia2> I use linode for ubuntu-us.org
<knome> balloons, iirc, you talked something about kubuntu earlier (i might misremember) and i know people are working with the community jenkins stuff
<balloons> right. We'd scoped out things like ec2 in the past, and kubuntu has had there ec2 usage reimbursed in a similar manner
<knome> their
 * knome hides
<balloons> for hosting, I'd recommend picking a host and pricing out a longer term contract to request funds for. Don't do it on a monthly or bi-monthly basis, as it will make your lives harder imho
<knome> yep...
 * pleia2 nods
<balloons> there isn't a requirement you choose a specific host, or any other hoops. It's no different than any other request. However, if you are trying to ask for funds for a supercomputer to run a website, I don't see that getting accepted :p
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> WHAT?
<knome> but my php code is very unoptimized it'll surely need a supercomputer :P
<balloons> I realize it seems unfair, but bitcoin mining (even for the project) probably wouldn't fly
<knome> lol
<balloons> I've seen your php knome, don't worry. Special compensation can be arranged for that
<balloons> we've learned to adapt for you
<knome> hahah
<knome> good ;)
<knome> what about setting up a openttd server for community games, would that get through? :P
<balloons> so yea, I look forward to seeing a request
<balloons> quite possibly. We ran a tf2 server I think for a short time during the steam on linux launch
<pleia2> knome: I'm inclined to just do a Linode 2G, I'm familiar with the company and they've always treated me well, their prices are competitive and their service is solid (I irc from a linode)
<pleia2> that's $240/yr
<flocculant> evening all 
<flocculant> pleia2: thanks for the pings out :)
<flocculant> knome: just a thought - is there any reason why we don't have recent blog stuff on the front page? 
<flocculant> other than that's what we do ofc
<pleia2> 11:20:49 < knome> and yeah, we need the blog entries on the front page sooner or later
<pleia2> 11:20:53 < knome> it's really hidden now
<pleia2> ^^ yesterday :)
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> pleia2: that'll be me really reading the backlog then :p
<pleia2> :D
<flocculant> I was just sat here staring into space through our front page - then started thinking - never a good sigh
<flocculant> or sign
<balloons> bah, I closed this tab on accident. Anyways, while some of you are still around, I need to give my GCI speil!
<balloons> Is there any interest within xubuntu to put up some tasks for Google Code In? I'm not sure if Jose has formally asked yet or not, so I'll mention it
<flocculant> balloons: no-one's asked us 
<balloons> ok, I can craft up an email now and formally do so. That said, I think it would be a nice idea. Tasks can fall under things like documentation and promotion as well -- it never hurts to have more of those
<knome> pleia2, as i said, that works for me
<knome> pleia2, i mean as i said, all providers work for me, implying linode works for me :P
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> pleia2, tell me how you want to go forward with it
<knome> especially if you want help...
<pleia2> I can probably just do it
<pleia2> submit funding request, set up linode, distribute access
<knome> yep
<knome> works for me very well as well, thanks
<pleia2> do we need to vote or something? :)
<knome> (but feel free to ask for help)
<knome> well
<knome> we're not using xubuntu funds
<knome> so i don't see a reason why
<pleia2> wfm
<knome> also, the stuff we are setting up are stuff that we are using already
<knome> so i don't think we need to discuss if they are useful or not :P
<pleia2> :)
<knome> a quick workaround for the website frontpage is up
<pleia2> funding request submitted
<pleia2> knome: ah, cool
<knome> \o/
<knome> pleia2, just a theoretical question; how do you think a 2G linode would work with the stuff we are about to push there and the wordpress website?
<pleia2> knome: it would be fine, but I'd rather have canonical be the owners of our website, they are better equipped to handle attacks, outages, etc (I'm just one person with a real job and things)
<knome> yes, i was just thinking
<pleia2> no more thinking
<knome> for potential changes in the future :P
<knome> lol
<pleia2> :D
 * knome turns the brain off and goes work on the website updates then
<knome> alalalalalalalalalalalal
<pleia2> haha
<knome> krytarik, the tracker code is on launchpad... you can create an MP and we can argument there instead of either of these channels ;)
<bluesabre> evening all
<knome> krytarik, but of course i'm just kidding...
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> howdy knome 
<knome> pleia2, you still around?
<pleia2> mhmm
<knome> ok, so you all, but especially pleia2:
<knome> see the staging site
<Unit193> bluesabre: /laslog balloons 
<knome> and the third widget area
<knome> that starts with the marketing blog article
<knome> the question:
<knome> do we want to do it in this order, where the "more articles" section is at the end, or move it as the first item?
<knome> first would make more sense with mobile devices
<pleia2> which one is the third? :)
<knome> 01:05  knome: that starts with the marketing blog article
<knome> eg. the second white-white bg one
<knome> or the one before the footer
<pleia2> oh ok
<pleia2> it look good as it is
<knome> but would you be opposed of the other order?
<knome> let me show that to you...
<knome> refresh
<pleia2> it might be a bit odd to have "more articles" before we show them any articles.. reading left to right
<knome> (and now it's second/last widget area, as it would be in the website)
<knome> well of course we'd change the title
<knome> "The Xubuntu team blog"
<pleia2> nah, the other way is better :)
<knome> or sth
<knome> ok
<Unit193> "The Xubuntu blog team" ?
<knome> Unit193, that too.
<pleia2> no, not that
<knome> i'll keep on breaking the staging site then.
<pleia2> k
<knome> hoping to get this done on this sitting
<bluesabre> Unit193: re Google Code In?
<knome> pleia2, another question: do we expect to only want to drag articles from one category ("Articles") or do we want multiple choice?
<pleia2> I don't know
<knome> hah
<pleia2> probably just articles?
<knome> mhm
<knome> also, subcategories for articles is ok
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> we want everything we publish to make it on the front page at some point
<knome> oh?
<pleia2> whether it's release news or articles
<knome> ok, so no category filter then
<knome> ...right?
<pleia2> well, we don't want a release announcement showing up twice
 * knome facepalms
<pleia2> everything we publish should either end up where it is now on the site, or down in articles
<knome> ok
<knome> so basically what the marketing lead wanta
<knome> *wants
<knome> is
<knome> we put everything that we want to show up in the new widget area in one category
<pleia2> impossible \o/
<knome> and then we only show that category
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> note: an article can be in several categories
<pleia2> so I think that only excludes release announcements
<knome> yeah, so there's some work to be done
<knome> let me try to break something.
<pleia2> enjoy
<knome> this is always fun
<knome> oh yeah, fun
<knome> so
<Unit193> bluesabre: Yeah.
<knome> pleia2, so to confirm: we're fine with limiting to one category (and all its subcategories) ?
<bluesabre> Unit193: alrighty, I'll see if I can get some ideas together
<pleia2> knome: sure
<knome> great
<knome> let's see if i'll enable selecting multiple anyway, but good to know we (i) have that fallback
<pleia2> I guess having the release announcements show up isn't the end of the world, they rotate out quickly enough
<knome> well
<knome> i'd prefer a situation where we don't have to publish new articles to "push out" the release announcements
<knome> it's simple enough to add the limitation in some form anyway
<knome> just wanted to know how we want to filter
 * pleia2 nods
<Unit193> bluesabre: Figured that'd be the most interest to you.
<knome> bluesabre, did i already tell you parole needs to show the filename on the main window when playing an audio file?
<bluesabre> knome: yes you did
<bluesabre> knome: maybe I'll fix that tonight :)
<knome> :)
<knome> pleia2, do we want to start being obsessed on button alignment to bottom of the widget box?
<pleia2> knome: I don't think so
<pleia2> but you haven't seen my desk
<pleia2> chaos
<knome> lol
<knome> ..you haven't seen my desk
<knome> actually my desk is so small that i simply don't have space for chaos
<knome> things fall off if i have chaos
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> oh sigh
<knome> x.x
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-25
<knome> huhu, ok
<knome> ok, website frontpage now updated with our articles widget
<knome> in the future, please pay attention to writing/copy-pasting a sensible excerpt, if at all possible, or poke me
<knome> pleia2, flocculant ^
<flocculant> knome: writing/copy pasting to where? 
<knome> flocculant, in the post editing screen, in the top right, there's a button called "screen options"
<knome> click that and make sure that "excerpt" is selected
<knome> then you can hide it
<knome> once you have done that, an excerpt "box" under the article box appears
<flocculant> knome: ok - that seems painless enough 
<flocculant> so it's bound to go wrong for me :D
<knome> well, the thing is
<knome> if you don't put in anything
<knome> it will just take N words from the start
<knome> and append it with [...]
<knome> which isn't the end of the world
<flocculant> yea - I understand that 
<knome> but it's of course nicer to have hand-crafted excerpts
<knome> and we probably want to control that the boxes on the front page are about the same height
<flocculant> yep for sure - if the excerpt is good enough then no need to read the whole if you're not really interested
<knome> so if the title is long (like for local doc building), the excerpt should likely be shorter
<knome> fortunately we don't need these for old articles
<flocculant> knome: so it takes the whole title 'as it is' ?
<knome> title is always as it is
<knome> you can't control that
<knome> you can only control the content excerpt
<flocculant> ok 
<knome> so yeah, coming up with sensible titles is a good thing too :P
<flocculant> short title = more excerpt room - got that 
<knome> yep
<knome> and when all titles are ~same length, also looks better
<knome> but if it needs to be long, then it needs to be long
<flocculant> yea - but rather unwieldy as a concept 
<flocculant> yea indeed :D
<knome> for layouting purposes, the middle column is unfortunately a bit narrower
<flocculant> quick comment on wording for 'The Team Blog' 
<knome> or more exactly the content area for that
<flocculant> Find even more interesting articles implies to me that the ones there are less interesting 
<knome> hah
<knome> so -even ?
<flocculant> hang fire
<knome> yes?
<flocculant> For more articles perhaps
<knome> aha
<knome> done
<knome> and as you can probably figure out, it's easily changeable
<flocculant> yep that's better 
<flocculant> yea - widget I assume 
<knome> this was just something i wrote quickly in order to have something there
<knome> yes, a widget indeed :)
<flocculant> yea I assumed as much, why I mentioned the wording :)
<flocculant> and does the widget promote newest to the left? 
<knome> yes
<flocculant> k 
<flocculant> I got that :)
<flocculant> knome: I assume you saw my MP moving qa links to common reference - wanted to at least get that sorted out prior to us getting it on docs.x.o 
<knome> yes, i'll look at it today
<flocculant> ok - only put you as it was us that was discussing it last week
<knome> if we can get the community funding for our own virtual server quickly, we should probably wait until that's up before setting up the contributor docs
<knome> the request was made by lyz yesterday
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> not sure I'd agree 
<krytarik> knome: One thing I noticed earlier, the Developer Area still refers to Wily and its blueprints.
<knome> krytarik, right, i'll fix that next
<knome> krytarik, when do we have your next MP up?
<krytarik> knome: Umm, it's already done.
<knome> aha
<knome> ;D
<knome> krytarik, should be release-agnostic now
<krytarik> \o/
<flocculant> is anyone else actually wanting to do anything with these docs?
<knome> flocculant, is anyone else wanting to read the current contributor docs we have?
<knome> my answer: i don't know
<flocculant> ha 
<flocculant> I meant is anyone making noises about writing stuff :)
<knome> i am :P
<knome> i guess i've been involved so much with writing docs for all teams that i should make sure they end up in the new docs too
<flocculant> as far as read - then who knows about them other than a few of *us* :)
<knome> maybe at some point i could let it go and start making others write :P
<knome> nobody - yet
<knome> we will do massive publicity stunts
<knome> where flocculant 'strikes' an arsenal - chelsea match for example
<knome> oops
<knome> that was supposed to be a secret
<flocculant> lol
<flocculant> and by alll you mean not qa 
<knome> yes
<flocculant> :D
<knome> and a bit of it too
<knome> O:)
<flocculant> that I have to then unstranglish :p
<knome> lol
<knome> maybe...
<flocculant> :)
<pleia2> knome: noted re: excerpt
<pleia2> knome: also, yay, site looks good
<knome> \o/
<knome> bbl ->
<pleia2> oh, and yeah I submitted the funding request yesterday, if all goes well (as I expect it to) I'll bring up the VPS next week
<flocculant> cool
<flocculant> and hi pleia2 :)
<pleia2> o/ flocculant 
<flocculant> didn't see our testing session thing in the newsletter :'(
<pleia2> oops, I'm sorry :(
<flocculant> things happen - don't apologise :)
<pleia2> lost our core link collector recently, so it's just been me, and I failed
<pleia2> social media activity was good on it though
<flocculant> yea for sure :)
<flocculant> I did go looking 
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> I hope you have a decent turn out
<flocculant> not often I do ;)
<flocculant> well we will see :)
<pleia2> or at least that quality overcomes quantity ;)
<flocculant> it'll be in logs even if there are only a couple turn up 
 * pleia2 nods
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> so it can be linked out whatever happens ofc
<pleia2> yeah, that'll be useful
<pleia2> ok, time to pack up my laptop, off to the other side of the country for thanksgiving
<pleia2> see you
<flocculant> have fun pleia2 :)
<pleia2> thanks :)
<jjfrv8> knome, I have a few corrections to suggest for the building docs locally article. How would I go about submitting those?
<flocculant> jjfrv8: do an MP - it's what I've been doing :)
<jjfrv8> but where do I pull the article from? And where would I point the MP?
<jjfrv8> or will I find out Sunday? :)
<jjfrv8> bbl
<flocculant> jjfrv8: sorry wrong end of the stick - all that stuff is on contributor docs too 
<krytarik> I think he's referring to this though: http://xubuntu.org/news/building-xubuntu-documentation-package-locally/
<krytarik> Oh yes, you might have just indicated that. :P
<flocculant> :)
<krytarik> Also, since we are talking that article, I might reiterate: "'fonts-droid' added in Wily too, but installed in Xubuntu by default".
<krytarik> jjfrv8: And if you are eager to include that in the docs too, there is a pretty wide gap to be filled yet :P - https://unit193.net/xubuntu/docs/contributor/C/documentation.html#docs-building
<knome> jjfrv8, send an email to me or slickymaster 
<flocculant> cheating 
<flocculant> :p
<knome> wut is? :P
<knome> or you can send the mail to flocculant... who can then nag others to update the article :P
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> I could update the article anyway :)
<flocculant> but yea - I haz lp:stuff on the brain atm so assumed wrongly :D
<ochosi> evening all
<flocculant> hi ochosi :)
<ochosi> how're things?
<ochosi> (apart from sidi spamming everyone with his sandboxing project ;))
<flocculant> well - I gave up reading anything because of that :p
<flocculant> plodding along - no change on the enormous grey borders yet - not seen any mention of that since darkst was in -desktop the other morning
<flocculant> other than that not much from me going on
<flocculant> though we are running the 'how to test' session on Sunday hopefully
<flocculant> how's ochosi ?
<ochosi> yeah, read about that session naturally
<ochosi> not sure whether i'll manage to be around on sunday
<flocculant> yep - I assumed so 
<ochosi> family time there with the grandparents and all
<ochosi> i'm good, just really really busy and often tired :)
<flocculant> ochosi: well - it's aimed at the new people we've had joined really
<ochosi> but i'm plotting to go to fosdem in january
<flocculant> ochosi: that sounds awesome - g'parents are always good :)
<ochosi> so its not like i've forgotten about FOSS, i just need more time to get folks at my new job to appreciate it :)
<flocculant> :D
<ochosi> Unit193: are you still following up on the -core issue/s?
<ochosi> i mean: are you actively pinging people about it
<ochosi> (unfortunately i don't get to pinging folks anymore, just not around enough for that)
<flocculant> :)
<krytarik> ochosi: Last ping was on Nov 17th: "[20:06] <slangasek> Unit193: cheers, queued for looking at this afternoon".
<ochosi> ok, good to know
<ochosi> even though that was a week ago
<krytarik> Yep.
<ochosi> anyhow, please follow up with him
<ochosi> likely he just needs a friendly reminder
 * ochosi needs some sleep
<ochosi> night y'all!
<flocculant> night ochosi :)
<knome> nighty flocculant 
<knome> err, ochosi 
<knome> flocculant, FYI, i'm eating now, then looking at the MP's
<knome> flocculant, i lie! merged.
<knome> jjfrv8, changes taken to production with some further changes on wording on the last paragraph - thanks
<bluesabre> evening all
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey knome
<bluesabre> how's it going?
<knome> not bad!
<knome> got the new stuff landed on the webite
<knome> +s
<knome> and it looks goood now
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> "The Blog" on the far right looks odd
<knome> aha
<knome> where should it be then?
<bluesabre> dunno
<knome> hah
<bluesabre> but it's like "no categories love me!"
<knome> thanks for the input, sean
<knome> i appreciate it
<bluesabre> np
<knome> well we can add categories in the dropdown
<bluesabre> knome: I was just enjoying all the fine, lovely looking site, and then I saw The Blog alllll alone :'(
<knome> :D
 * bluesabre needs to work on his approach
<knome> what would you suggest?
<bluesabre> knome: I am talking about the bottom, btw
<bluesabre> not the top
<knome> put some submenu items for categories?
<knome> well, the menu is the same
<knome> if there are items in the dropdown menu, they are in the footer
<knome> same other way
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> also
<knome> yes?
<bluesabre> "The Blog" on the top has a dropdown popout... despite having no content
<knome> hmm?
<bluesabre> one sec
<knome> i can't see that.
<knome> chrome?
<bluesabre> chromium/opera
<knome> don't see in chrome/ff
<knome> i believe you see it and i can *try* to fix it..
<bluesabre> https://imgur.com/NyAEDGY
<knome> weird
<knome> just to confirm, can you see the same in the staging site
<knome> no you can't
<knome> there is no blog menu
<knome> sec
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> refresh
<bluesabre> fixed
<bluesabre> and
<bluesabre> the footer blog looks better now too
<knome> hmm?
<bluesabre> yay!
<knome> weird
<knome> it's the same theme and all
<knome> what the...
<knome> or did you refresh the main site?
<knome> maybe you had some cache.
<bluesabre> refreshed main site
<bluesabre> maybe
<knome> ah.
<knome> explains
<bluesabre> The Blog on the footer looked like a child element with no breathing room initially
<knome> maybe
<bluesabre> now its all better
<bluesabre> so go knome
<knome> i haven't tested stuff with partly cached CSS :P
<knome> \o/
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-26
<Unit193> ochosi: And a bit on the 23rd.  If you're volunteering to poke, be my guest.
<bluesabre> knome: the tracker is having some issues, can't select filters
<krytarik> bluesabre: No problem here.
<bluesabre> krytarik: my isp must be caching pretty hard today
<krytarik> \o/
<Unit193> ISP and not browser...?
<Unit193> Oh dear, bluesabre's drinking and working again.
<bluesabre> s/drinking and//
<bluesabre> whats up krytarik/Unit193?
<bluesabre> I'm about, making noise again :)
<Unit193> Yep, saw in -release.  Oh, likely the usual.  Working on a package that takes forever to compile, only to find out I need to patch it so it doesn't FTBFS. :D
<Unit193> Not much Xubuntu stuff recently, it's mostly been docs.
<Unit193> Thanks, bluesabre.
<bluesabre> np
<bluesabre> trying to follow up on things, let me know if there's anything I need to poke about
<bluesabre> tomorrow is a holiday in the US only, so its a chance for me to nudge people that I usually do not see
<Unit193> (And was sick a nice deal of last week too...)  Think it's only those 3 merge proposals still pending from my side, don't think I have anything else on the agenda.
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> Unit193: can you increment the changelog on https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/livecd-rootfs/xubuntu-core/+merge/267880, looks like that's all thats changed since it was last updated
<bluesabre> I'll help get some eyes on these, or maybe we can nudge micahg to add an approve comment
<Unit193> Not precisely sure the best way to do that, nor if there's a point if it's a moving target and may get more before we're done.  On the other hand I could just drop the changelog.  But sure.
<bluesabre> good point there
<bluesabre> maybe I'll just comment on it
<bluesabre> debian-cd no longer merges, never seen this before...
<bluesabre> bzr: ERROR: There was an error parsing the changelog: Could not parse changelog: Invalid key-value pair after ';': UNRELEASED
<krytarik> bluesabre: If you look at it: "debian-cd (2.2.23) unstable; UNRELEASED". :D
<bluesabre> krytarik: wowza, I'm having a case of the stupids tonight
<bluesabre> :D
<krytarik> lol
<bluesabre> even after fixing it, its still being silly... maybe its time for me to go to bed
<bluesabre> back in the morning, night all
<Unit193> G'night.
<flocculant> knome: ta
<bluesabre> flocculant: poke
<bluesabre> flocculant: er, nvm
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> too late
<flocculant> read it now
<bluesabre> darn
<bluesabre> flocculant: hi
<flocculant> hi bluesabre - just popped home - lunchtime :)
<bluesabre> nice
<flocculant> I saw gmb say bye bye 
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> and then it crashed
<bluesabre> and I ignored it
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> you'll notice I've not had time to find any new really off the wall bugs since last one :)
<flocculant> I AM trying :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: np, I haven't had time to fix bugs in a while ;)
<flocculant> that's a good bit of collaborative work right there then :p
 * bluesabre nods
<flocculant> evening 
<flocculant> hi matt_symes - sneaking in :p
<matt_symes> hey flocculant :D good to see you. i'm also mcs_. Just testing something under matt_symes 
<flocculant> :)
<matt_symes> flocculant: i fancy doing some testing this cycle. I have the time and the setup. automatically zsyncing the daily iso to my server each night at 4am and my servers configured as a PXE server so i can just switch the test PC on and boot to the daily to install it. need some direction with what to test though :)
<flocculant> matt_symes: awesome 
<matt_symes> ...maybe a bit earlier in the cycle though ?
<flocculant> flocculant: if you've got zsync cron'd you might want to do so at ~10:30 am - rebuild happens at ~10:15
<matt_symes> ahh. ty. did not know that.
<flocculant> matt_symes: this cycle we're concentrating on packages for the most part
<flocculant> I check the image boots daily - but nothing more than that
<flocculant> we'll be doing more image tests at milestones (ish)
<matt_symes> cool. i install the daily each night then, before i sleep. The setup is pretty automated
<matt_symes> /i/i'll
<flocculant> matt_symes: do you use xubuntu? 
<matt_symes> 14.04 on this lappy
<matt_symes> this is my most used machine
<matt_symes> ...apart from the server
<flocculant> mmk
<flocculant> kind of depends if you want to use the dev ppa's - they are pretty much safe 
<flocculant> then you could use those packages
<flocculant> we're trying to get people to *use* things and report bugs 
<flocculant> matt_symes: let me dig up the m/l thread 
<flocculant> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-October/010922.html
<matt_symes> alright. I could do that. I'd just have to image this drive every night in case of problems
<flocculant> and for a bit of detail http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/
<flocculant> http://tracker.xubuntu.org/#tab-calendar also has on it what we're *currently* testing
 * matt_symes puts kettle on for coffee then starts to read when coffee's made
<flocculant> :D
<flocculant> matt_symes: if you're about Sunday next 18;00 ish we're running a *how to test* session - which will inevitably also discuss what it is we're wanting this cycle 
<matt_symes> i'll put it in the diary. which channel ?
<flocculant> this one :)
<matt_symes> is that sunday 29th nov or the first one in december ?
<flocculant> matt_symes: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers/ if you join that, I mail that lot directly about things 
<flocculant> yep 29th November
<matt_symes> one moment flocculant. just creating a new browser profile for testing
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> Xubuntu docs no longer validate.
<knome> i see.
<knome> fixed
<Unit193> Great!
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> evening knome :)
<knome> hello
<ochosi> bluesabre: thanks for taking care of gmb
<ochosi> has anyone heard any news on the package manager topic?
<ochosi> (has gnome-software even been packaged yet for ubuntu?)
<knome> hello ochosi 
<Unit193> !info gnome-software xenial;say Last I knew, packagekit wasn't new enough.
<ubottu> 'xenial;say' is not a valid distribution: kubuntu-backports, kubuntu-experimental, kubuntu-updates, partner, precise, precise-backports, precise-proposed, stable, testing, trusty, trusty-backports, trusty-proposed, unstable, utopic, utopic-backports, utopic-proposed, vivid, vivid-backports, vivid-proposed, wily, wily-backports, wily-proposed, xenial, xenial-backports, xenial-proposed
<Unit193> !info gnome-software xenial
<ubottu> Package gnome-software does not exist in xenial
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-27
<knome> !team | jose has just sent a mail to the development list about google code-in, we might want to participate; the contest starts on december 7, so the schedule with meeting is tight, thus this ping
<ubottu> jose has just sent a mail to the development list about google code-in, we might want to participate; the contest starts on december 7, so the schedule with meeting is tight, thus this ping: bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, but could be that someone set up a more or less official PPA for testing
<knome> hullo ochosi 
<Unit193> I know not of secret PPAs. :3
<flocculant> ochosi: not seen anything either - trying to watch in -desktop for talk of that and the munged up gtk3 theme thing 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-28
<flocculant> ochosi: grabbed libgtk-3-0 upgrades from proposed, we're now back where we were without enormous grey borders everywhere
<wolf1> hi, is the "irc session for people who would like to start testing pakages/iso" still on tomorrow? if so at what time?
<knome> 18 UTC
<knome> wolf1, ^
<wolf1> ok thx knome , this count me out, a bit too late for me. take care.
<knome> sorry to hear that
<knome> you can read the session log later if you want
<knome> and you can obviously always ask questions - we'll happily help
<wolf1> cool , shall try to read the session log later then. thx knome
<knome> np
<dkessel_> knome: regarding google code-in - i generelly think it's a good idea
<knome> dkessel_, me too
<knome> but it needs mentors and somebody thinking what the project is
<knome> or projects are
<slickymaster> evening
<flocculant> evening slickymaster :)
<flocculant> evening akxwi-dave 
<akxwi-dave> evening flocculant 
<flocculant> you got a plan of any sort for tomorrow?
<akxwi-dave> yep.. go thru the basics of app testing and the iso's... 
<flocculant> mentioning running with ppa's? 
<akxwi-dave> just had to build a pc ready for tommorrow.. my main rig died this morning
<flocculant> oh my :|
<akxwi-dave> yes the 3 main ones.
<flocculant> cool
<akxwi-dave> tell me :-( just gost me Â£350 for a new mobo cpu and memory
<flocculant> :(
<akxwi-dave> arrives on monday
<akxwi-dave> luckily i had a spare dual core lenovo think centre I could build
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> it'll be interesting to see who turns up for it 
<akxwi-dave> been away on holiday all week and came back to dead pc and the house alarm screwed.. :-)
<flocculant> oh lovely ... 
<akxwi-dave> true .. even if just 1 or 2 start to test more I'll be happy
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> I'll be happy if 1 or 2 more report bugs/tests :D
<akxwi-dave> lol.. very true 
<flocculant> we seem to have new people turning up at the testers lp page - so that's positive
<akxwi-dave> :-)  thats good
<flocculant> 11 since the cycle start
<flocculant> evening drc 
<drc> afternoon (barely :)
<flocculant> :)
<akxwi-dave> howdo drc
 * drc wonders what's going on?  Folks are being nice to him...checks what's going on behind him.
<drc> and howdo akxwi-dave :0
<flocculant> drc: lol - have I ever not been :)
<drc> no, but when everybody is, I get suspicious.
<flocculant> :)
<drc> flocculant: got you lesson(s) plan set for tomorrow?
<flocculant> akxwi-dave has :)
<flocculant> we were just talking about that 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: something else - we need to try and get people to understand that we're not just looking for obvious bugs eg gmusicbrowser crashes on close, but things a bit less obvious like bug 1508918 which might end up being wishlist 
<ubottu> bug 1508918 in Catfish "Deleting from search results" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508918
<flocculant> if it goes well might be worth doing so again when we get to Beta stage 
<akxwi-dave> flocculant, read my mind...  i'm using the gmb one as an example off obivous one
<akxwi-dave> yup
<flocculant> yea - we can use it as an example, but as it's now not seeded we'll be ignoring it 
<akxwi-dave> sorry flicking between chat and a rather nice little game i bought off steam..
<flocculant> that's ok - I'm flicking between chat and Mr Robot
<drc> and I'm flicking between the LC and MU ends of the field.
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<knome> for 16.04, i think it would be a great idea to highlight some of the small details of the system that help users use it
<knome> things like default button highlight
<flocculant> knome: not sure I understand what you mean in regard to what we were talking about, unless it's not meant to and is a statement :)
<knome> it's a disconnected statement
<flocculant> ok :)
<flocculant> knome: you mean like a blog post type thing? 
<knome> that was my first thought
<flocculant> aah yes you do - just seen the mail from b/p @D
<flocculant> :D
<knome> and it could be extended to something that's mentioned on the release announcement
<knome> to try to make that a bit more exciting than just "download is here"
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> now that the more tech stuff is elsewhere, gives more chance to fill the webpage announcement to be more *bling*
<knome> yes, totally
<knome> and now that the website technically allows $XYZ better
<flocculant> right
<knome> currently, i have no new features or other big fixes planned
<flocculant> yup
<knome> meaning that i'm happy with most of the things there
<knome> so i can focus more on the content side
<flocculant> yea
<knome> i'm sure there will be updates needed once i start doing that though, but what can you do :P
<flocculant> :)
<knome> also working on the content is easier even when you only have time intermittedly
<flocculant> for sure - nothing to stop starting final release announcement now 
<knome> yep
<flocculant> rather than on the 24th April :p
<knome> yes ;)
<knome> the latter is more likely though
<knome> :P
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<knome> maybe we could do some images on the release announcement
<knome> in addition to the xenial artwork
<knome> ...which would be nice to draw before the UI freeze :P
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> if 'team' are going to 'I use foo instead of gmb' maybe some images of one or two of those perhaps
<flocculant> I don't know - just thinking aloud
<knome> i don't know
<knome> they are kind of disconnected
<flocculant> just not a pic of a qt one :D
<knome> but that would be another article series to highlight for sure
<knome> ^ also thought that when thinking the "small highlights" series
<flocculant> knome: re that - might be useful to have some sort of default layout for that media thing
<knome> yep
<knome> though i think we'll just do some kind of intro paragraph like for the xubuntu at... series
<knome> and damn you
<knome> you just reminded me of one feature i want to have for the website...
<knome> basically:
<flocculant> media player? 
<knome> sigh
<knome> how do i explain this
<knome> in WP, a user can write a biographical information for themselves
<knome> i would like to allow turning a knob "on" for a specific blog article to show that
<knome> in a standard way
<knome> one of the questions is if that bio info should be copied as some meta field for the post when it's published for the first time
<knome> because if the user changes their bio, it can get awkward
<flocculant> so if QA wrote something - it'd have a qa bio? 
<flocculant> for example
<knome> if you wrote something, it'd have your bio
<knome> but that would be optional in my vision
<flocculant> mmm
<knome> so we could make sure the release announcement doesn't have a bio :P
<knome> or a xubuntu at... article
<flocculant> not sure how that adds much tbh 
<knome> currently, we haven't written many articles that would benefit from it
<flocculant> which is probably why I don't see the benefit of it :)
<knome> yeah
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntus-default-theme-gets-a-refresh-for-quantal/
<knome> that's one of them
<knome> it's not *essential*, but there are times when i'd like it
<knome> another idea is to just forget the user bio, and just add a new field that we can fill in
<knome> but then it would kind of defeat the purpose of having it automated
<flocculant> yea 
<flocculant> and unlikely  to be used as much
<knome> yes
<knome> ok, enough babble
<knome> bbl
<knome> hf meanwhile :)
<flocculant> cya 
<flocculant> likely tomorrow now - time to wander off 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: in and out now, if I don't see you before I'll see you tomorrow PM
<akxwi-dave> cya bud.. 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-29
<MrTulias> hi
<flocculant> hello MrTulias 
<MrTulias> hello flocculant 
<flocculant> how's things
<MrTulias> waiting for the meeting about testing :p
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> you know it's 3 hours away I hope :)
<MrTulias> yes :)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> have you done much for us before? 
<flocculant> name seems familiar
<MrTulias> some translations to Spanish
<flocculant> aah - that's where I've seen your name perhaps
<flocculant> afternoon krytarik 
<krytarik> Aftn flocculant.
<flocculant> hi drc mexchip 
<flocculant> hey sorinel1o 
<flocculant> !team | early warning of testing meeting - we'll be using meetingology for that
<ubottu> early warning of testing meeting - we'll be using meetingology for that: bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<flocculant> anyone here for the testing session at 18:00 ?
<flocculant> that means not team :)
<mcs_> yep
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> hi mcs_ 
<mcs_> hi flocculant 
<flocculant> MrTulias was earlier
<flocculant> hey akxwi-dave 
<akxwi-dave> Hi flocculant 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: join -offtopic
<akxwi-dave> join -offtopic
<akxwi-dave> oops wrong box
<flocculant> :D
<flocculant> it's #xubuntu-offtopic :)
<akxwi-dave> yup in
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov 29 18:00:38 2015 UTC.  The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<flocculant> #chair akxwi-dave 
<meetingology> Current chairs: akxwi-dave flocculant
<flocculant> Evening all - so we're going to now run the planned How to test session
<flocculant> We're not sure what people need
<flocculant> We're sure we need you
<flocculant> What we want to do in this session is just run through what we're trying to get during this cycle
<flocculant> So - what we first would love to know is who's turned up for the session :)
<mcs_> 0/
<flocculant> If you're here to learn something from us - then please do as mcs_ did :)
<flocculant> hi mexchip 
<flocculant> you here for the testing session?
<mexchip> hi flocculant, yes
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> just starting up now 
<mexchip> yes, sorry for being a bit late
<mexchip> but I'm ready :)
<flocculant> now worries :)
<flocculant> I saw you pitch up earlier
<mexchip> yes, testing the IRC software I just installed
<flocculant> anyway - lets get a start, akxwi-dave has been pretty active testing for us when we shout out during the last few cycles
<akxwi-dave> Afternoon All
<flocculant> he recently got approved into the main QA team and this was his first *job* from me
<flocculant> so be nice ;)
<mcs_> \o/ akxwi-dave 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: - the channel is yours :)
<akxwi-dave> Cheers flocculant , As you have just been told, I've been test testing for a few cycles now
<akxwi-dave> I started testing to give something back to the community, but it was scary at first
<akxwi-dave> not sure if i was doing things right or if it actually helped
<akxwi-dave> so hopefully what I'm about the pass on will help you get started in testing Xubuntu
<akxwi-dave> feel free to ask anything as I'm doing this
<akxwi-dave> to me there's three parts to the testing, ISO's, Packages and Bugs
<akxwi-dave> so I'll go thru them one at a time
<akxwi-dave> #subtopic iso testing
<akxwi-dave> Iso testing is probably the easiest one to get involved with, either by using a spare PC or using a virtual machine
<flocculant> oh meh - do we need to #topic first :(
<flocculant> #topic testing
<akxwi-dave> oops   :
<akxwi-dave> lets try again
<flocculant> #subtopic iso testing
<akxwi-dave> Iso testing is probably the easiest one to get involved with, either by using a spare PC or using a virtual machine
<flocculant> could be wrong :)
 * flocculant - you carry on akxwi-dave - sorry :p
<akxwi-dave> When I first started I was lucky enough to have spare PC, but now I test using Virtual Machines (32bit) and real hardware (64 bit)
<akxwi-dave> by downloading either the latest Daily build or even if its just beta version you can help 
<akxwi-dave> you can access these from here  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<mcs_> Can i ask a question ?
<akxwi-dave> of course
<flocculant> o/
<mcs_> Can we download the isos (the alpha and betas)  from here as well ? http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
<flocculant> yes
<mcs_> sorry  gtypo => http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/
<mcs_> OK
<flocculant> still yes :)
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<mcs_> ty
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: excuse me for a moment while I make a point
<akxwi-dave> off course
<NoklaM> Got to ask, how silly of me is to run the developmenet version on my only machine?
<flocculant> akxwi-dave is running the session, I'm reading - if people have questions just chuck a o/ into the channel and I will make sure you get chance
<flocculant> then we can run the session as akxwi-dave want's and we can ask questions at each topic end, thanks :)
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: your channel again :)
<akxwi-dave> if you want to be 100 % safe do it as a VM, however my Laptop which i use daily has the latest 16 build on it.04  
<akxwi-dave> ta
<akxwi-dave> once you have the ISo of you choice take a look at the testcases for that build
<akxwi-dave> luckily each test case has  a number of things that we would like to be tested for
<akxwi-dave> I personally do them in this order, As I find that I can get a number of things tested in a good run
<akxwi-dave> start with the Live Session - and work down the test options
<akxwi-dave> basically that it boots to desktop and you can start all the usually applications
<akxwi-dave> for me thats the main programs that i would use on a day to day basis
<akxwi-dave> if I  get any wierd things happen or programs fail i would write down what I was doing and what went wrong.
<akxwi-dave> when I happy I have done that I go back to the  test cases and see if any bugs had been reported for the live session.
<akxwi-dave> If there have i check against what I may have found..
<akxwi-dave>  I ususally check after the first run, as I don want to infulence my usuage.. but for all the rest of the testing I check the bugs reported first
<akxwi-dave> No one fallen asleep yet?  :-)
<NoklaM> o/
<NoklaM> keep going :P
<NoklaM> It's good
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<mexchip> go on
<flocculant> I'm here too :)
<mcs_> o/
<MrTulias> \o
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> o/
<akxwi-dave> I then Move to one of the install options - I usually try to alternate which one I go for first..( and choose a different one for the VM testing)
<mcs_> o/
<akxwi-dave> as you will see here  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/351/builds/107745/testcases/1300/results  there tends to be more to do..
<akxwi-dave> mcs a question?
<mcs_> yes
<akxwi-dave> fire away
<mcs_> If i find a bug that is not part of a test case should i be raising to launchpad or xubuntus qa ?
<mcs_> ie. against ubuntu or xubuntu ?
<flocculant> against the package 
<flocculant> example
<akxwi-dave> I personally raise it on launchpad ( Which I will come to later) against the package
<flocculant> find an issue with mousepad 
<flocculant> report it there, you can THEN list that number in the tracker
<mcs_> ahh. ty
<flocculant> this means that both QA following tracker and dev following package see it :)
<mcs_> right. ic
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: unless that was what you intended to say :)
<akxwi-dave> word for word flocculant   :-)
<akxwi-dave> back to the installation testcase
<akxwi-dave> as you may see there is usually more to check, so before I do I tend to see if any other bugs have been reported so I can check for them While installing
<akxwi-dave> again writing anything  i find down for later
<akxwi-dave> and finally after the install I do the post install test, following the testcase along with using all the programs I use in  a day to day basis..
<akxwi-dave> on a side note I also tend to install any restricted drivers available and steam, along with a game
<akxwi-dave> just to test it as I would truly use it..
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> important point ;)
<akxwi-dave> once all the testcases have been done I then file the reports
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<akxwi-dave> if you do get any of the bugs that have been recorded before PLEASE make sure you report them as well, just because some one has already reported it, its still important that you do
<akxwi-dave> the more people that report a bug, shows that its not an isolated case
<flocculant> yep
<akxwi-dave> as a caveat to that. there will be obvious ones that will not need to be reported  i.e. the Gmusic Browser bug
<akxwi-dave> but if in Doubt please please report it
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: that has gone from the testcase now 
<akxwi-dave> thats the end of this subtopic any questions before we move on to testing packages
<flocculant> I had one :)
<akxwi-dave> pls ask..
<flocculant> if I start an iso test - is there a way that I can say I am testing it? 
<akxwi-dave> yes you can
<flocculant> ok thanks - how? 
<akxwi-dave> logging into the tracker where you report the test results, you can set the result to "Testing"
<akxwi-dave> rather than passed or failed
<akxwi-dave> and go back and edit it once you are finished
<flocculant> ok thanks akxwi-dave 
<akxwi-dave> That also go for if you reported one as passed you can then go back and change it to failed and vice versa
<flocculant> did mcs_ get syncing info earlier?
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: good good point :)
<mcs_> flocculant: ? i don't think so 
<flocculant> ok
<akxwi-dave> #subtopic Package testing and PPA's
<flocculant> just to tie this section up - there are ways to just grab the differenc
<NoklaM> o/
<mcs_> o/
<flocculant> I'll touch on those at the end though
<akxwi-dave> before i continue any other questions?
<flocculant> as akxwi-dave is now on what we REALLY want :)
<mcs_> i was going to enquire about zsync but i suspect that'll come later
<akxwi-dave> mcs_, yes it will do flocculant is going to do that at the end
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: get on with packages where  I willl be noisy :D
<mcs_> ty
<akxwi-dave> right packages.. this is the bit that is really fun... 
<flocculant> ***PACKAGE TESTING ****
<flocculant> :D
<akxwi-dave> lol
<akxwi-dave> if you read the get involved section of the website it mentions there are 3  testing PPA's that are used.
<akxwi-dave> and these need to be installed
<akxwi-dave> http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa
<akxwi-dave> to make it easier for people I will list the terminal commands to install these
<akxwi-dave> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:shimmerproject/daily
<akxwi-dave> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-staging
<akxwi-dave> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:xubuntu-dev/ppa
<akxwi-dave> sudo apt-get update
<akxwi-dave> sudo apt-get upgrade
<akxwi-dave> I do this because people may be great at testing, but not necessarilty great at the terminal ( looks both ways and hides)
<akxwi-dave> first thing i do before any package testing is to check there are no updates
<akxwi-dave> and manually do and update and upgrade
<akxwi-dave> i then go to the package tracker http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/
<flocculant> o/
<akxwi-dave> here for the latest ones
<akxwi-dave> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/350/builds/105268/testcases
<akxwi-dave> yes flocculant ?
<flocculant> can I just jump in quickly
<akxwi-dave> of course
<flocculant> re those PPAs
<flocculant> anyone can add those when supported
<flocculant> but - we would urge people using them to also have ppa-purge installed so you can test *new* for a while 
<flocculant> then purge the ppa and go back to default
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: sorry - carry on :)
<akxwi-dave> no probs flocculant 
<akxwi-dave> the good thing about package testing is that as there a large number of test cases, and it may look daunting, you can choose which one to do at any time
<akxwi-dave> and like the ISO testing, the test cases have very good instructions of what to test..
<akxwi-dave> first time i looked at them, I will admit I was scared, and thought omg.. but after 10 mins of reading them.. it was more the case ok lets do this
<flocculant> :)
<akxwi-dave> using the same methods as for the ISO's I look at the bugs that may have been recorded for the testcase i'm about to do
<akxwi-dave> for example the XFCE appearance settings one   http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/350/builds/105268/testcases/1575/results
<akxwi-dave> and work thru the instructions.
<flocculant> oh pick one you can fail me on :p
<akxwi-dave> Oh yes..
<flocculant> even if it does prove a point :D
<akxwi-dave> if you have looked at this testcase you will see  found a bug and reported it via launchpad
<akxwi-dave> now,, i didnt just rush off and reported it , i retested that section a number of times before i did, just to make sure I hadn't done anything wrong
<akxwi-dave> if you do find a bug and report it it will get picked up and checked by the team..
<akxwi-dave> just like this one..   http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/350/builds/105268/testcases/1584/results
<akxwi-dave> this shows that even if you think you may find a bug and its checked it may not be one
<akxwi-dave> in this case I checked this one a number of times before reporting, and eventually as you will see it was my VM that was faulty
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: in one
<GridCube> MrTulias ping
<MrTulias> ?
<akxwi-dave> the message with this is you may not always get it right..  but if you have tested it and get the same result a number of times report it
<flocculant> the first appearsto be a real bug :
<GridCube> P: i think this is the meeting you wanted to be around
<MrTulias> :)
<akxwi-dave> dont let the ones I have linked put you off, off the package testcases, there a number that have only a few steps
<akxwi-dave> start with those to get the hang off it.. once you do you will find you are half way down the list before you know it
<akxwi-dave> obiously some of them are better tested with real hardware
<akxwi-dave> for example to bluetooth connectivity
<akxwi-dave> but real hardware or virtual machines.. any testing is helpfuul
<flocculant> ^^
<akxwi-dave> any questions?
<flocculant> loads :D
<mcs_> o/
<flocculant> bunch of statements too :_P
<akxwi-dave> fire away
<mcs_> who ?
<flocculant> perhaps if w #topic flocculant then let people ask stuff
<akxwi-dave> mcs first
<flocculant> #subtopic Xubuntu extras
<mcs_> just to be clear about testing the PPA, i could...
<flocculant> mcs_: the ?
<mcs_> flocculant: i was going to ask a question
<flocculant> yep - go ahead 
<mcs_> ty
<mcs_> i could download a daily iso, update and upgrade it, add the PPAs using the commands above ^^^ update and upgrade again and then i'm good to go ? 
<akxwi-dave> yes
<mcs_> ty
<akxwi-dave> Thats what I do on my laptop.. and test the individual iso's om a vm
<flocculant> mcs_: for people not understanding
<flocculant> grab the daily image http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current and you can zsync it
<flocculant> I alias image to zyncing the pair
<flocculant> anyone questions about testing apps?
<akxwi-dave> two links that can help to bookmark for reporting new bugs
<akxwi-dave> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<akxwi-dave> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug/?no-redirect
<akxwi-dave> these along with the full list of test cases are auto loaded for me when I start testing.. just in case
<flocculant> last call
<flocculant> closing at 7:30
<akxwi-dave> once of the hardest things when reporting bugs is the tags.. don't worry if you get them wrong first times around flocculant  can change them :-)
<akxwi-dave> if any one has any questions after this session feel free to grab me anytime
<mcs_> o/
<akxwi-dave> yes mcs
<mcs_> is it too early to start testing now ? i.e next week ?
<akxwi-dave> nope startwhen you are ready
<mcs_> ty
<flocculant> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Nov 29 19:29:23 2015 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-11-29-18.00.moin.txt
<akxwi-dave> thank you all for coming
<akxwi-dave> hope this has helped even if in some small way
<mcs_> ty akxwi-dave flocculant 
<flocculant> mcs_: I've been running the dev version since the day after release as alwa
<NoklaM> thanks lads, very informative :)
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: thank you man :)
<flocculant> I'll try and get some logs out of it for the wiki
<akxwi-dave> anytime :-)
<flocculant> perhaps when we do session 2 we'll do the next stage 
<flocculant> runs with dev, runs with ppa, runs away :p
<akxwi-dave> lol
<flocculant> sadly I am serious :p
<flocculant> we should follow that basic session up - bluesabre will REALLY hate me then :P
<flocculant> he he he 
<akxwi-dave> lmao.. :-)
<flocculant> he won'y:
<akxwi-dave> Well hopefully that will help..  wish i had thought of asking for a bit of guidance when I first started, it can be scary until you get to the point when it clicks
<flocculant> 't
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: hah hah
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: exactly what I had hoped for from you 
<mexchip> thanks for the session, it was very informative
<flocculant> they might know yet - but it was spot on 
<flocculant> thanks mexchip 
<akxwi-dave> well time time to go mate... was the wifes birthday last thurday and i need to take her to the pub
<akxwi-dave> cheers mexchip  and thx
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: good evening then :)
<akxwi-dave> will be back on tomorrow.. have fun
<knome_tracker> eh.
<knome_tracker> doesn't look any better, seems like i'm dropping off soon again.
<knome> this looks more promising
<tsimonq2> hey, gonna give you guys a hand, after I am done with Lubuntu ISO test cases, I am going to do some Xubuntu ones
<tsimonq2> although at this point it is less important then it would be later on in the release schedule, why not?
<tsimonq2> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-28
<codfection> knome, thanks for replying, yes I would to contribute in development (coding) area
<codfection> like*
<knome> codfection, have you read this? http://xubuntu.org/contribute/development/
<knome> codfection, i know it's a bit scarce, but it gives an idea what we're ding
<knome> *doing
<knome> codfection, and you'll likely want to be in touch with bluesabre, ochosi and/or Unit193 - they can help you forward with development stuff
<knome> or krytarik, whose client is not here right now
<codfection> thanks a lot knome 
<knome> no worries
<knome> and if you have any general questions, feel free to ask here
<knome> and specific questions too - other people than those that i mentioned might be able to help as well
<knome> (me included)
<flocculant> knome: hopefully we'll get dates on burndown, release schedule had dates so I added them to roadmap
<knome> flocculant, yes, that'll do it - thanks
<flocculant> cool
<flocculant> knome: though it doesn't - updated a short bit ago - does the tracker look for topic-foo-xubuntu - cos if so you called z xubuntu-z-roadmap, there being no topic-z 
<knome> no
<knome> it looks for the umbrella blueprint
<knome> which is set to xubuntu-z-roadmap (you can figure that out because it actually loads all the stuff)
<knome> it just doesn't look at the blueprints all the time
<knome> i don't remember how scarcely it checks this - it might be once a day or once a week
<knome> this is the main reason i'd like to steer away from using blueprints as the source - if we had all the information in an internal database, we wouldn't need to do "expensive" API calls
<knome> or figure out when we need to do the calls..
<flocculant> so why not do it when the cache updates?
<knome> because we have no idea when the launchpad cache updates
<knome> that's the problem
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> obviously not making sense here :)
<knome> probably not ;)
<flocculant> Work item data from Launchpad. The cache was last updated at Mon, 28 Nov 2016 20:00:12 +0000.
<knome> right.
<flocculant> it says
<knome> that's the work items cache
<knome> that's updated hourly
<knome> ...but it's a different API call
<flocculant> right - so why not check that different call?
<knome> because it "costs"
<flocculant> who?
<knome> time
<knome> and processing power
<flocculant> of something owned by canonical? 
<knome> so if we did that hourly, then the site would be sluggish hourly
<knome> something paid by canonical, but that's not the point
<flocculant> do it less often then
<knome> ...i am ;)
<ochosi> codfection: hey! if you need any pointers lemme know. best starting place is usually a small bug that annoys you and that you are consequently motivated to fix. anyway, feel free to get in touch
<flocculant> just more often than it is at the moment :p
<knome> hah
<knome> well, i'd rather just make the switch to internally-managed stuff
<knome> there is some code for that ready, but time has been scarce
<flocculant> and how do you intend to manage internally - and how will it work with lp stuff it needs to read? 
<knome> anyway, it just doesn't make sense to check something more than once a day that changes maybe twice a cycle
<flocculant> like bugs for instance
<knome> those will still be updated with cronjobs, but at least then there's less to update
<knome> and since at that point we need some authorization, we can let authorized people press a button that updates the bug on request
<knome> authorized probably bound to ~xubuntu-team
<flocculant> so - more work for people so that machines don't need to? 
<knome> nope.
<knome> the same work - you need to add the work items to launchpad now
<knome> in the future, you'd just add them to the tracker
<flocculant> anyway 
<flocculant> this is probably something that the team should have some input on 
<flocculant> personally I don't see a gain :)
<flocculant> I really don't see the point I guess :)
<knome> i don't understand why the team would be opposed to something that makes things work more smoothly
<flocculant> not sure how this makes it more smooth? 
<knome> for example, the dates on the burndown would be updated instantly
<flocculant> well
<knome> and there could be a more user-friendly form to add the dates
<knome> and the work items
<knome> etc.
<knome> (and tbh that's what i'm going to do)
<flocculant> well whatever
<flocculant> obviously my input is wasted as you appear to have made up your mind that we'll change something again
<knome> it's not whatever - i see what you're saying, and i can see that it's hard to see how things could be better, but i know
<flocculant> the tracker is awesome 
<flocculant> love it - actually makes something easier 
<knome> people in the team have agreed for a long time that launchpad is slow etc. - not only related to the tracker-related thigns - so why not steer away from it?
<knome> again, the process to add work items and dates and whatever would be very similar - but everything would be handled internally in the tracker
<flocculant> yea
<knome> eg. no more work for you, but you get benefits
<flocculant> I'd love to know how re-inventing the wheel here AND linking to lp bugs is going to work
<knome> we're not reinventing the wheel
<flocculant> yes you are 
<knome> the launchpad work items feature is not really a work items feature
<knome> it's a text box you can edit
<knome> all the work item handling stuff is done by our tracker and the ubuntu tracker
<flocculant> that's one small facet of it isn't it
<flocculant> if the bug bp works like it does now - then that's my only argument :)
<knome> in the first stage of the migration, probably so
<flocculant> if your argument is based on making canonical infrastructure work more - then I don't care about that :)
<knome> the biggest problem with launchpad managing the work items data is that it doesn't make a difference between the different work items
<flocculant> first stage?
<knome> what that means is that once it's "validated" that the user and work item status is an approved user/state, it's just text
<flocculant> is this actually written down anywhere for team to read? 
<knome> so we have no way to track what happens to that exact work item
<knome> so we have to load and parse all of the data again and again
<knome> no, but so far nobody has been interested in reading such documents
<flocculant> but that doesn't actually hurt us does it?
<knome> it does.
<flocculant> how?
<knome> for example, on the burndown, there are sometimes those obviously wrong days
<flocculant> knome: also - I'm not arguing for the sake of it here - I really want to understand what we'd gain :)
<knome> that's just one of the symptoms
<knome> if we had the data in our own DB, we could store the daily data about every single item
<flocculant> see this is where I get confused
<knome> on the history tab, the dates when the items are completed are the best guesses
<knome> if we had the data in our own DB, we could tell people something is closed 3 times but (re)opened 4, to know it's a recurring issue
<flocculant> because all of the real data IS on launchpad surely? the bugs, the package changes etc etc
<knome> there is no way to ask launchpad to tell what the work item status was yesterday
<knome> or if a bug status was open or closed any given day
<knome> we know the *last* day when a bug was closed, but if it has been reopened and reclosed, we again only know the last day
<flocculant> so you are looking purely at the data that we physically input on any given blueprint currently?
<knome> mostly, yes
<knome> we want to be linked to launchpad with the bugs anyway
<knome> but again, that's a lot less API calls than what we are doing now
<knome> (and having less API calls isn't the only reason - it's also simpler code to run if we have most of the data internally)
<flocculant> which is what's confusing me I suspect - as I'm looking more 'globally' - not just what we input, but what occurs on bugs/packages ...
<knome> that we'll still have to fetch from launchpad
<knome> well, not "have to" but "want to"
<flocculant> for example - the blueprints don't really get updated promptly - just when someone remembers something is DONE or POSTPONED
<flocculant> consequently anything on the tracker about 'that' is wrong
<knome> yes
<flocculant> as far as the Timeline goes - does it actually matter if it's not precise?
<knome> but what if changing the status was two clicks on the tracker instead of going to launchpad and manually editing the work item box - then wait an hour for it to be updated on the tracker - instead of being instant?
<flocculant> still people would do it eventually
<flocculant> :)
<knome> in that case the question is do we need the timeline anyway?
<knome> let me give you another example
<knome> on how it's stupid that launchpad doesn't track work items as items but a textbox
<knome> consider we'd have an item [flocculant] Pick noce: DONE
<knome> (typo intentional)
<flocculant> :)
<knome> now, it's done today
<knome> one week from now
<knome> you go to fix the typo
<knome> the second you do that, we have no way of knowing it's the same work item
<knome> because items aren't items, they are just text
<flocculant> on the tracker
<knome> no, on launchpad
<knome> on the tracker, they are actually items
<flocculant> obviously if you subscribe you could follow the change
<knome> ...but as they are not items on LP, they aren't "really" items on the tracker either
<knome> yes, for humans that's easy
<knome> but the tracker has no way to verify that
<knome> it can't know that it's the same item, ever
<flocculant> ok
<flocculant> I can understand that point
<knome> so basically if we track items on the tracker internally
<knome> we could then change anything to anything
<knome> and all of the items' history would follow along
<flocculant> yep
<knome> as it would have an internal ID that was always the same
<flocculant> I get that
<knome> that's one more symptom of getting the work item data from LP
<knome> bugs are a bit easier as they have bug numbers that act as consistent ID's
<flocculant> ok - but QA uses the tracker in a more global way - not just what's written - but changes to status for example
<flocculant> how do we intend to keep that if the bug bp is some internal thing? 
<knome> there are (at least) two ways to go about that, and i have no idea which one we're going to use, but they are (in a simple form):
<knome> 1) keep doing the bug blueprint as we do now, and getting the bug statuses as we do now
<knome> simple, right?
<flocculant> mmm
<knome> so one concept in between: tags
<knome> currently, work items are either development, qa, bugs, artwork or whatever
<knome> if we save data internally, one work item can have multiple tags, concerning both artwork and qa for example 
<knome> so now:
<knome> 2) add a work item within a tag (or two) and tell the tracker it's a bug #N
<knome> the tracker keeps updating the bug data from LP periodically
<knome> so in essence, just remove the bug blueprint handling and move it to the tracker - but keep on reading the bug DATA from LP
<flocculant> at which point we are surely back at the reason you want to move away? calls to the lp api thing
<knome> in version 1), we first need to do one API call to launchpad to ask which bugs are attached to the bugs blueprint (or any blueprint, tbh)
<knome> then we need to make another API call to ask what's up with those bugs
<knome> if the bug numbers were saved internally, we'd do with one API call for *all* bugs in *any* blueprints
<knome> or in our case, in any *tags* really, as we wouldn't have the blueprints
<flocculant> the whole thing just sounds like robbing peter to pay paul to me :p
<knome> nah. the "less API calls" is just a side-benefit really
<knome> and it makes the code much more clean - eg. less prone to errors and network failures and what not
<flocculant> so what's the main benefit to us as a team then? 
<knome> in our discussion, i've pointed out several
<knome> one more that we haven't talked a lot yet is the UI
<flocculant> mmm - none of those sound like big things to me though :)
<knome> the new UI will let you change statues with a few clicks instead of typing text manually as i said
<flocculant> knome: well the UI I'm sure we're likely to agree :D
<knome> it also lets you add work items to *any* tag (currently: blueprint) from the same URL
<knome> basically just type the work item description, select a tag and assignee and you're done
<knome> none of the benefits alone are huge - but combined, they make a difference
<flocculant> knome: right
<flocculant> sorry for hassling you :)
<knome> no worries
<flocculant> as you know - I'm not good with change for change sake :p
<knome> sure
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: something I forgot to mention - 16.04.2 hits mid January
<knome> flocculant, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/.tracker/tracker-new-items.png
<knome> flocculant, when you click "new": http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/.tracker/tracker-new-items-edit.png
<flocculant> knome: that looks pretty much how I expected it too look :)
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/.tracker/tracker-new-items-tags.png
<flocculant> :D
<knome> multiple tags - clickable - so click on one of them and you see all items for that tag
<flocculant> knome: so ... start of a cycle, someone has to start a new cycle blueprint currently
<knome> yes
<knome> and all sub-blueprints
<flocculant> they can copy paste pretty much the base from the last one - edit a few lines and bob's your uncle
<knome> with internal stuff, you just add a row in the "releases" tab (similar to this) and we're set
<flocculant> now they'll need to input each one - leave kbd, click buttons
<knome> we can write a code snippet that copies all not-finished work items from release X to Y
<knome> that's actually really easy with the all internal stuff...
<flocculant> without actually doing one - I can't tell which would be quicker
<flocculant> but I'm not convinced from what I do from cycle to cycle :)
<flocculant> s/with what
<knome> the code snippet would allow you to do it by selecting source and destination cycles, then click "go"
<flocculant> ok 
<knome> it would *totally* be faster
<knome> and less prone to human errors
<flocculant> Decide on milestone participation
<knome> right, so things you always want to do even if they are done
<flocculant> gets' copied and changed from done to todo
<knome> hmm.
<knome> we could allow a batch input of work items
<flocculant> how would having to type the whole thing out each time be quicker? 
<flocculant> obv things from dev perspective are different cycle to cycle
<knome> similar to the textbox in LP, but once entered, tracked like real work items
<flocculant> but artwork for instance - do the wallpaper - same for every cycle
<knome> fwiw, i basically type that out every cycle :P
<knome> but i can see QA being a bit more draggy with that
<flocculant> hah - well I copy/paste and edit done to todo :)
<knome> so we'll just allow some sort of CSV input, no worries with that
<flocculant> well
<knome> one more cool thing we can do at some point is to add a feature that takes a meeting minute url
<flocculant> on the other hand there are tasks that the only change is x to y to z and flopping done/todo back and forth
<knome> and greps all the action items there
<knome> and saves them as work items :P
<flocculant> could there be a set of always have these items? 
<flocculant> ha ha 
<knome> i'd probably do that with the CSV input
<knome> so basically just keep a wikipage with the items you want
<knome> and do one copy-paste per cycle
<flocculant> and then things we put in whiteboard - where will they live? 
<knome> that's a good question with no good answer yet
<flocculant> yea - that would work - csv doodah
<knome> but there are definitely ways to save that kind of information
<knome> say, every tag can have a description = blueprint can have a whiteboard
<knome> then just show them nicely somewhere
<knome> eg. a "tag summary page"
<knome> i've used the whiteboard mostly for adding stuff that is related to a specific work item
<knome> so for me, it would be much more useful if every WORK ITEM could have an extendable description
<knome> (and that's doable...)
<knome> but again, we can allow tag-based descriptions too
<flocculant> I tend to use it for things that 'are' work items which get repeated that necessarily finish at the same time as we publish the final announcement
<knome> so maybe those could be in the wiki or sth too
<flocculant> so wouldn't ever get DONE - what would be the point :0
<flocculant> :0
<flocculant> oh boo
<flocculant> :)
<knome> well, what i mean is basically anywhere that is within the same domain/UI as the tracker
<knome> but they STILL can be in the tag description :P
<flocculant> because the wiki's a nightmare and the xubuntu one I don't like :p
<knome> why don't you like the xubuntu one?
<flocculant> can't remember offhand
<knome> sigh :)=
<flocculant> I tend to shy away from it lol
<knome> well, we're moving towards it :P
<knome> so if you don't like it, open the mouth now and we can potentially do something about it :P
<flocculant> why do you think most of the qa stuff is on dev pages ....
<knome> i have no idea ;P
<flocculant> knome: there are obviously differences between the 2 wiki's - quirks if you like - but I was having trouble doing things last time
<knome> if it's related to media management - i understand :P
<flocculant> can't remember exactly what - some plugin needed or something 
<knome> aha
<knome> well, the next time you bump into it, let me know...
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> won't be 2016 ... 
<flocculant> I know I was doing the release note - or trying to 
<knome> right, some includes...
<knome> maybe
<knome> we'll figure it out
<flocculant> nah - that doesn't work on the u.w either :p
<knome> it does... but it's wonky :P
<flocculant> too wonky for me to worry about :)
<knome> maybe
<knome> but i guess the thing i'm trying to do with all this tracker work is make things that are too wonky less wonky so people can access them and thus enable things that weren't possible before
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> I know that :)
<knome> (along with doing fun/educative projects)
<knome> educative for me that is :P
<flocculant> I suspect what we're really talking about *here* are the corner-cases
<knome> nothing is better than doing something in FOSS first, with time and thought, then scoring a work project to do the same and almost copy-paste the solution and take the money :P
<flocculant> yea - always good to keep the head working for sure :)
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<knome> (especially when it's accidental - and yes, that has happened)
<flocculant> well - as always good to talk to you about something like this - but I only sat here for 5 minutes 90 minutes ago lol
 * flocculant wanders off for the night 
<knome> ;)
<knome> nighty
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-29
<flocculant> bit of a long shot - but anyone amongst us seen the installer trimming size of extended partition if it includes unallocated space? 
<slickymaster> I've seen it increasing the size, flocculant 
<slickymaster> but never trimming it
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-30
<flocculant> slickymaster: it's an odd one 
<slickymasterWork> YEAPS
<slickymasterWork> sorry for the caps, flocculant 
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> lost printers again 
<flocculant> seems to be every cycle :p
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-01
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: just so you know - build failed on printer packages \o/
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: as did mate -  system-config-printer-common : Breaks: system-config-printer-gnome (< 1.5.7+20160812-0ubuntu3~) but 1.5.7+20160812-0ubuntu2 is to be installed
<akxwi-dave> cheers flocculant 
<flocculant> bluesabre: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/system-config-printer/+bug/1643129/comments/10
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1643129 in Ubuntu GNOME "Drop system-config-printer-gnome package" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<flocculant> bluesabre: appear to be getting a catfish crash - in a folder search for *.txt works, search for *.com and it crashes > UnicodeDecodeError in <lambda>(): 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0xcf in position 42: invalid continuation byte
<flocculant> want anymore than me apporting it?
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-02
<bluesabre> flocculant, will take care of the printer package this weekend, and that catfish bug sounds icky
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - and yes sounds icky - but do you want it apported :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: nvm - bug 1646714
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1646714 could not be found
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-03
<bluesabre> morning all
<bluesabre> knome, how would you like to license the sgt-launcher icon?
<flocculant> hi bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey flocculant 
<bluesabre> how's it going?
<flocculant> pretty good thanks :)
<flocculant> just mulling over whether I can be assed trying to patch kernel to see if I can eject usb3 without it mounting again :p
<bluesabre> That sounds terrible.
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> this is what comes of having time with Dave doing lead stuff ...
<flocculant> blaming akxwi-dave 
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Working on getting sgt-launcher uploaded this weekend
<bluesabre> and whatever other things I get to :)
<flocculant> well printer would be rather useful as iso's are failing to build ;)
<flocculant> not sure why jbicha just randomly chucked stuff at archive and let people's iso's die
<flocculant> especially as it seems no-one affected knew it was happening ... 
<flocculant> unless you did of course *shrug*
<bluesabre> flocculant, well, there was an MP for the printers that I just merged
<flocculant> bluesabre: the printer-common thing I guess
<bluesabre> flocculant, this one, https://code.launchpad.net/~jbicha/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu-system-config-printer/+merge/312069
<bluesabre> and associated bug 1643129 which sounds right
<ubottu> bug 1643129 in Ubuntu GNOME "Drop system-config-printer-gnome package" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1643129
<bluesabre> looks like I might need to update something else there
<flocculant> lovely 
<flocculant> not really the best place to leave that imo - should at least have contacted teams instead of just changing things
<bluesabre> updating xubuntu-desktop now
<bluesabre> yeah, I should be more responsive to MPs though
<bluesabre> Been slow on the draw the past couple weeks
<flocculant> bluesabre: well - the mp is probably the same day as it printer died here - so not sure you could have been quicker to know
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> and I still think that 'teams' should have been informed even if only for social reasons
<flocculant> bluesabre: so iso should build tomorrow? 
<flocculant> bluesabre:lastly re sgt - I still see those new games 'outside' the launcher grabbing the -proposed sgt update
<bluesabre> flocculant, yeah, but that sgt-puzzles has been stuck in proposed for over a month :D
<bluesabre> push now, fix later :)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> well have a good weekend - time for me to wander off now 
<bluesabre> flocculant, assuming this is the only breaking thing, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/2.210
<ochosi> evening bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hiya ochosi
<knome> bluesabre, pick a license that's easiest for you
<bluesabre> knome, cool, will do that
<knome> basically feel free to apply that to any of my (art)work i provide you for any FOSS thing, unless i explicitly mention otherwise
<knome> (but for now, i have no idea why/what that explicit mention would be)
<bluesabre> alrighty
<ochosi> folks, can any of you reproduce this bug? i can't and it'd be nice if i could fix it: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12864
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 12864 in General ""About" dialog can't be closed in clipman" [Normal,Needinfo]
#xubuntu-devel 2016-12-04
<flocculant> ochosi: I can't reproduce that
<ochosi> flocculant: mkay, not sure whether that makes the issue stranger or less strange
<ochosi> flocculant: thanks for checking it out anyway!
<flocculant> ochosi: and of course I'm on a newer version of gtk than you as well I expect
<ochosi> possible, i'm on 3.20
<flocculant> 3.22 
<flocculant> zesty
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> i already suspected that it might be related to gtk3 versions
<flocculant> yea
<ochosi> but it's hard to tell, as it seems that other about dialogs work fine for the reporters
<flocculant> yup
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-27
<flocculant> ochosi: just seen andre's comment in xfce ... if custom actions no longer work then I'll not want to be testing it.
<flocculant> use 4 custom actions here :(
<flocculant> re dropping thunar into experimental that is 
<flocculant> apparently I got the wrong end of the stick there ...
<ochosi> flocculant: yeah, it's only custom kb shortcuts for custom actions that currently don't work
<ochosi> custom actions work just fine, as before
<ochosi> (but i guess you already figured that out)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-28
<Unit193> Wait, I seem to remember some remark about when I backport something for myself, I'm supposed to push $elsewhere too.
<knome> pleia2, and https://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/flyer-1804/flyer_A4_updates.pdf for the completely messed up one ;)
<knome> pleia2, i think we should let go of the word ubuntu... replace it with some other fun fact
<flocculant> ochosi: re power plugin - just appear to have a white circle here now ... 1.6.0+git-0~2247~ubuntu18.04.1
<flocculant> checked other themes - apart from changing to a black circle instead - no 'mains lead' thing
<kgbme> knome: right, xubuntu-devel xD got it. :)
<knome> that's it
<kgbme> :p tnx sry
<Patrick2> knome: right, xubuntu-devel xD got it. :)/part
<Patrick2> oops
<ochosi> flocculant: the circle should have a flash in its center, but feel free to show me a screener (in general that's expected)
<flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/1buYBQO.png
<flocculant> made it super big just to check I wasn't seeing what was there - nope - no flash
<flocculant> ochosi: also got latest update for it prior to pinging earlier
<ochosi> interesting, i need to check the icon again
<ochosi> yeah, no worries, the mistake is likely on my side
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> just not sure why it looked ok in inkscape but the png export is not
<flocculant> always happy to point things out for you :)
<flocculant> ack
<ochosi> flocculant: if i get to it i'll try to fix it tonight then you'll get the update tomorrow or so
<Unit193> BTW, I have .13 of thunar either way, so we'll see if it's nasty or not.
<flocculant> ochosi: okey doke 
<flocculant> Unit193: were we expecting it to be nasty?
<Unit193> flocculant: Not really, just in a "Don't touch it, it will break" mode on this one. :P
<flocculant> Unit193: oh right - well I'm more than happy to sit in that camp for a while :D
<Unit193> Tooo laaaate
<Unit193> !info thunar bionic
<ubottu> thunar (source: thunar): File Manager for Xfce. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.6.13-2 (bionic), package size 305 kB, installed size 1035 kB
<flocculant> :)
 * flocculant toddles off for the day
<ochosi> flocculant: ok, pushed a fix
<ochosi> Unit193: can we get 1.6.13 in the 17.10 PPA too so we can get more testing?
<Unit193> Which?
<bluesabre> Unit193: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging
<Unit193> bluesabre: It's already there.
<bluesabre> Unit193: rad
<Unit193> I see you're trying to confuse me. :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: I see you're trying to be confused.
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> Using weird version numbering.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-29
<bluesabre> flocculant: I've nearly got playlist support working, should have something testable this week, https://i.imgur.com/r1hwwvu.png
<flocculant> ochosi: yep - and it works here too :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: nice one :D
<bluesabre> flocculant: pushed playlist support to git
<bluesabre> I think the one other thing we were interested in was the red icon when audio plays and things are muted
<bluesabre> I know so much about dbus now :) / :\
<knome> haha
<knome> hello bluesabrey
<bluesabre> heya knome
<knome> if you're feeling creative, feel free to check out the new flyer drafts :P
<knome> https://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/flyer-1804/flyer_A4_updates.pdf
<knome> basically that one
<knome> (see how it's less wall of a text now!)
<knome> and see how far we are with the front page :P
<knome> actually i have a slightly more worked version, but not much
<knome> so ideas on what we want on the front page are welcome
<knome> and if you come up with something, feel free to put the ideas in here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-1804-flyer
<knome> which is samefully out of sync 
<knome> shamefully too
<knome> i need to start preparing leaving the house
<knome> catch you later
<slickymasterWork> knome, there was a typo in the flyer
<slickymasterWork> corrected it now in the pad
<slickymasterWork> also removed some extra space between words and added some suggestions
<flocculant> bluesabre: I assume not git://git.xfce.org/users/bluesabre/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin then as I get warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout
<flocculant> ftr I generally have no idea where specific things might be hiding in git :p
<ali1234> that sounds unusual
<flocculant> ali1234: well it was me doing it ...
<ali1234> it is because the remote does not have a "master" branch
<ali1234> i think
<ali1234> you can "git clone -b devices ..."
<ali1234> or check out the branch manually
<flocculant> it's possible it's the wrong thing anyway 
<ali1234> what are you looking for? "push playlist support to git"?
<flocculant> yea I guess
<ali1234> https://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/commit/?id=5cbe27be4be9552755c5463c2b8ad68358e7dc29
<ali1234> that's on the "main" repo
<ali1234> git://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin
<ali1234> master branch :)
<flocculant> aah - there we go, wrong thing anyway :D
<flocculant> ali1234: thanks :)
<flocculant> mm well - no idea then, cloned master, built it - no change in version or what I see, changelog here only appears to go back to the 25th
<ochosi> flocculant: kewl, mind to post another screener? (ideally in the "normal" xubuntu panel size)
<flocculant> ochosi: what's the normal xubuntu panel size lol
<ochosi> i think 24 or 26px
<ochosi> would have to check x-d-s
<flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/1mVnXlV.png @26px
<flocculant> if that's all as expected I'll lose it from panel now ;)
<ochosi> yes it is
<ochosi> thanks a bunch!
<ochosi> oh wait
<ochosi> what does the "devices" tab say in the xfpm settings dialog?
<flocculant> devices tab?
<ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/qAhIqew.png
<flocculant> have no devices tab
<flocculant> xfpm is @ 1.6.0+git-0~2247~ubuntu18.04
<ochosi> ah ok
<ochosi> that's also fine
<ochosi> it's dynamic
<ochosi> i just wanted to know what it would show *if* it were to show something
<flocculant> ochosi: ok :) 
<ochosi> if you connect e.g. a bluetooth mouse that has battery support in upower you would suddenly get a devices tab
<flocculant> aah ok - that's nice :)
<ochosi> you'd also see that in the panel plugin then
<flocculant> right
<knome> slickymaster, the extra space is from the pad, it's not in the flyer itself :P
<knome> slickymaster, "in addition, ... is also"? nope
<ochosi> knome: looks ok to you too? (the power icon) https://i.imgur.com/1mVnXlV.png
<knome> hmm.
<knome> i'd probably make the lightning a bit wider
<knome> or in other words, increase the "stroke" width
<ochosi> dunno if that wouldn't make it look "fat" when being larger
<knome> i don't know
<knome> maybe, but then it's too thin now.. and this is our default panel size, right?
<knome> so which size is more important?
<knome> (:
<ali1234> i agree. to my eyes, that looks like a dot in a circle...
<knome> it's not "awful" to me, i just think you can do better..,.
<flocculant> I can see it's not a dot without my glasses on
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i can see when i have time to tweak it
<ochosi> i definitely like it more than what we had before
<ali1234> flocculant: depends which eye i use :)
<knome> yes
<ochosi> even in 1.4 (or 17.10 ftm)
<flocculant> ali1234: :p
<knome> ochosi, do you have the svg somewhere?
<ochosi> knome: well ofc, it's in git :)
<ochosi> elementary-xfce/devices/symbolic
<knome> good, i might check and try it out then
<ochosi> sure thing
<Unit193> krytarik: Hmm...Better late than never?
<krytarik> Unit193: Hmm... I've looked everywhere I can think of, but it seems I'm still missing context. :P
<Unit193> There is no context, it's a question without any!  (Core, 17.10.)
<flocculant> bluesabre: anyway - so confused here - after building and installing apparently still got 0.3.2
<flocculant> night all
<krytarik> Unit193: Hmm, thanks.  Seems there was no notification about it.. :(
<Unit193> Notification?
<krytarik> The build one - got it for 18.04 though.
<Unit193> There isn't one, hasn't happened yet.
<krytarik> Ok, very well then!  Go!
<Unit193> Bah.
<Unit193> We'll have to wait for some smoke testing too.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.10 - i386 - i386 built.
<genii> Hm
<Unit193> flocculant: Hi, so I'm (not really wanting to, but figure I should) looking to email -devel about some testing for these before I actually "release" them.  Do I have to run this by you?  Should it come from you?  Or just go ahead?
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.10 - amd64 - amd64 built.
<bluesabre> flocculant: https://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/
<bluesabre> Probably doesn't need much testing... it basically works or it doesn't
<bluesabre> The only thing it doesn't do yet is listen for new playlists... hoping to fix that tonight
<ochosi> bluesabre: any reservations from your side against gtkswitches in menus?
<ochosi> wondering whether to make the DND mode in notifyd one
<bluesabre> ochosi: my only complaint is that the smallest the switches get in greybird is still extra large
<ochosi> i guess i could make them a little smaller still
<ochosi> arc does an ok job at sizing them well
<ochosi> for notifyd it
<ochosi> 's mostly for making the option more noticeable
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> i agree it could be smaller too
<bluesabre> but yeah, otherwise no complaints from me
<knome> but i also agree that it's better if it's more visible
<ochosi> maybe we should discuss this in #xfce-dev rather...
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-30
<bluesabre> flocculant: actually, indicator-sound also doesn't listen for new playlists, so will probably revisit this later :)
<flocculant> Unit193: just go ahead :)
<Unit193> :(
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> not even sure what you're talking about - so even better from my point of view :D
<Unit193> Xubuntu Core 17.10 release.
<flocculant> oh right - yea go ahead, just don't mention the tracker 
<flocculant> cos it's not there
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunarx-python 0.4.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunarx-python-0-4-0-released-tp50153.html (by Adam Plumb-2)
<flocculant> bluesabre: perhaps I have one of those git things going on - but can't see anything playlisty at all ... 
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://packages.qa.debian.org/d/debian-policy/news/20171130T224907Z.html
<Unit193> slickslickthequick: I did a once over on both ISOs, they boot to live and have fully functional networking.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-01
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r536 Smaller GtkSwitches... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<bluesabre> ochosi: <3
<bluesabre> flocculant: if you have the package installed, I think it might take precedence over the git build because of the installed directories
<flocculant> bluesabre: got it - needed to prefix=usr
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - see playlists there now with clementine, not (as I think you said everything), btw parole's not showing in the list at all currently
<bluesabre> flocculant: yeah, something weird with parole in the PPA
<bluesabre> and the playlists feature is limited to the last 5 I think, might make that configurable
<ochosi> hi bluesabre 
<bluesabre> ochosi: heading out now, bbl
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-02
<flocculant> bluesabre: when I boot pc - pa-plugin is grey till it gets clicked > https://i.imgur.com/r81yEQU.png
<flocculant> and ack parole 
<bluesabre> flocculant: that's weird
<bluesabre> flocculant: when you boot, can you restart the panel before clicking on it to see if it is grey even after a panel restart?
<bluesabre> if yes, build with --prefix=/usr --enable-debug=full
<bluesabre> and then kill the panel and run it with
<bluesabre> PANEL_DEBUG=all xfce4-panel
<bluesabre> and send me the output from that after a few seconds (long enough for everything to load and then some)
<flocculant> ack - doing that now then
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - so grey after panel restart, rebuilding it, went belly up, no plugin to add to panel > http://paste.ubuntu.com/26094953/
<flocculant> guess something not liking debug=full
<flocculant> in and out today 
<bluesabre> flocculant: that makes no sense, good job!
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: obviously I have all the ppas
<flocculant> anyway - bbl - probably
#xubuntu-devel 2017-12-03
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r537 Make Thunar-Gtk3 look backdrop-ish when losing focus... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<ochosi> flocculant: apart from the features you've been discussing with bluesabre recently for pa-plugin, do we know about any regressions/problems with the updated apps from qa-staging in bionic?
<ochosi> just so i know if i should try to tackle anything specific before christmas
<ochosi> would be nice to get as much as possible from staging -> archive as soon as possible and then think about whether there's anything to promote from qa-experimental -> qa-staging
<flocculant> not that I'm aware of - I've at least used the 3 new apps, all appear to work ok - not remembering any sort of visual thing jumping out at me
<ochosi> kewl
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - winning that fight now - some libkey package was in autoremovable, reinsalled build-deps for pa-plugin and did it all again. 
<flocculant> bluesabre: http://paste.ubuntu.com/26103403/
<flocculant> ochosi: no problem :)
<ochosi> bluesabre, Unit193: Any thoughts/stoppers from your side to just promote the things we have kept in qa-staging to the archive? as there have been no obvious stoppers i'd like to get as many testers as possible asap and pushing them would help. we can also subsequently discuss if anything from experimental shall be promoted to staging
<flocculant> bluesabre: also I found that sometimes when I was restarting the panel, the icon wasn't grey during this mucking about
<ochosi> bluesabre, Unit193: btw, having the 4.13 panel in experimental would be helpful
<Unit193> ochosi: There's nothing to push, they're all backports.
<flocculant> ochosi: the things in qa-staging are only for artful afaik
<flocculant> ha ha 
<ochosi> hah
<ochosi> noice
 * ochosi slaps himself
<flocculant> ochosi: btw - got an issue with (I assume xfdesktop4) where I lose a bunch of right click 'stuffs' on desktop, open terminal here for instance
<Unit193> xubuntu_migrate-tasklist-separator.patch
<Unit193> looks like it can go away.
<ochosi> Unit193: yes, that's an old one
<ochosi> we don't need that from the previous LTS anymore
<ochosi> so it can go
<ochosi> flocculant: with xfdesktop 4.13?
<flocculant> ochosi: from the ppa yep
<ochosi> may be a problem with garcon
<ochosi> i vaguely remember some issues with that
<flocculant> thought I'd reported it - seems not
<ochosi> would be good if you could give a detailed account on what changed exactly
<ochosi> so i can try to reproduce and debug that a little
<flocculant> ochosi: ack
<ochosi> (i personally only use xfdesktop to show the wallpaper...)
<flocculant> I have a few things on desktop
<flocculant> ochosi: now I can't remember what I used to do before :D
<flocculant> been so long since I lost it
<flocculant> iirc - right click on folder on desktop used to be able to open terminal here, but don't see it in vm of bionic either
<ochosi> flocculant: not sure whether that was ever there, that's a standard thunar thing though
<flocculant> perhaps it's thunar then
<flocculant> I know last cycle the behaviour changed
<flocculant> Unit193: can't remember the reply now, possible to see what downloads have happened on a ppa? specifically the qa-staging one
<flocculant> or bluesabre - or anyone else who happens to know :D
<nueb> I would like some assistance in restoring the default greybird theme - i seem to have broken it
<nueb> after editing the images in "/usr/share/themes/greybird/xfwm4", the window title bar is gone
<nueb> i tried downloading greybird from its github and replacing the greybird folder with the latest github release, but the windowbar is still broken when choosing "greybird" in window manager
<ochosi> nueb: that's easy, just sudo apt install greybird-gtk-theme --reinstall
<ochosi> but this would also mean all your changes are gone
<ochosi> if you want to effectively edit/work with the theme, i recommend you git clone greybird into ~/.themes and edit it there on a git branch
<ochosi> then you'll also havev a clear diff and can reset more easily
<ochosi> you can even name it differently so you can switch back and forth easil
<ochosi> y
<nueb> thank you guys so much. i appreciate the help
<nueb> I'm not sure exactly where i went wrong. i only edited a couple of the .xpm files and deleted a couple of the .png files, in order to make the window corners flat and not rounded
<nueb> and to remove the gradients
<bluesabre> flocculant: Yeah, I've seen the icon initialized to grey a few times, seems to happen rarely, and goes away when hovering :\
<bluesabre> I pushed a bunch of changes in the last 48 hours for playlist improvements, stability, and memory leaks... if you want to poke around
<bluesabre> er... last week :D https://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/log/
<bluesabre> Planning to do another point release for the pa-plug today, and then I might have one more new thing to add to it this week before it's feature complete
<Unit193> flocculant: Yeah, sort of.
<bluesabre> Pretty good for the beginning of December :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hellos.
<bluesabre> Unit193: heya
<Unit193> What's up doc?
<bluesabre> Unit193: not much, just writing code and cleaning
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - as far as playlists go - things I'm using currently don't appear to show them :
<flocculant> p
<flocculant> I do check - what the crack is with clementine though - seems to work ok here
<flocculant> Unit193: ok - basically just wanted to know a number there if possible
<Unit193> Yeah, pasting now.
<flocculant> \o/
<Unit193> flocculant: Numbers can be easily off, and don't forget that building counts too: http://paste.openstack.org/show/lm1lipFyg7ePKdbKdf9g
<flocculant> some usage showing then perhaps 
<bluesabre> flocculant: so, no playlists show, or just clementine?
<bluesabre> I've tested with rhythmbox and clementine, not sure what other apps support them
<ochosi> bluesabre, flocculant: i fixed some issues in notifyd's state machine this week (read/unread states in DND or without), would be great if you could give it a spin
<bluesabre> ochosi: will give that a shot this week
<bluesabre> ochosi: likewise, if you want to shake the pa-plug down, that'd be helpful :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: will shake, rattle and roll it
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> knome: soooooo.... wallpaper contest?
<knome> yes
<knome> we need to set the rules
<knome> there was some disagreey
<bluesabre> Let me know if there's anything you need from me
<knome> let me look at the ML thread quickly
<knome> hmm
<knome> i found a new place where i have to fix the logos
<knome> the mailman stuff
<knome> new email re: wallpaper contest sent
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-26
<Unit193> Looks like some of the meeting scrolled past, but some of the gnome-software stuff was still there.  "and it uses appdata, another plus" err, that's a plus...?  I hardly see that.  Synaptic isn't super actively maintained, but it is actually maintained.  Perhaps not actively developed would be a better term.  I would say synaptic is certainly more functional and more reliable.  As far as 
<Unit193> screensavers goes, I'd be hesitent about seeding a semi-new locker option, considering the security concerns they can open.  I'll get the latest version up in the PPA though of course. I too would be against extending the defaults shipped.
<brainwash> Unit193: you hardly see what? it being something useful, or it being used only for few applications?
<Unit193> brainwash: As that being a plus.
<Unit193> bluesabre: We need exo 0.12.2-2 in Bionic.
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://salsa.debian.org/xfce-team/desktop/exo/commit/5a73fee69274b4b1e4f599afb5b86ac0b3f11d51
<bluesabre> Unit193: welcome back :)
<Unit193> Thanks/sorry/unfortunate, I know? :D
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: "I'd be hesitent about seeding a semi-new locker option", technically that's what got us into the mess with light-locker :D
<Unit193> Hah, yep!
<Unit193> ...I still use xscreensaver though.
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: I don't suppose you did the git things for the new xfce4-screensaver?
<bluesabre> Unit193: ah, nope
<bluesabre> Just did the bare minumum to get things to the PPA and write a blog post
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-27
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar-volman 0.9.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-volman-0-9-1-released-tp52183.html (by Andre Miranda)
<brainwash> libxklavier in 18.04 breaks layout switching in xfce4-keyboard-settings
<brainwash> installing the version from 16.04 fixes the problem
<brainwash> 5.4-3 (bad) vs 5.4-0ubuntu2 (good)
<brainwash> a packaging issue
<ochosi> yuck
<brainwash> bug 1805197
<ubottu> bug 1805197 in xfce4-settings "cannot switching keyboard layout with xfce4-keyboard-settings" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805197
<ochosi> i guess that bug needs to be re-assigned to libxklavier
<brainwash> well yeah
<brainwash> already done that
<brainwash> the linked upstream report mentions the same problem in Fedora
<brainwash> so, something has changed in the way how the package is built in xenial vs bionic
<brainwash> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxklavier/+changelog
<brainwash> maybe Unit193 has some idea
<brainwash> there was a ubuntu-specific patch which was not added to the package again after the debian sync
<brainwash> debian/patches/revert-default-group-change.patch
<brainwash> looks like xfce4-keyboard-settings relies on that one
<ochosi> Unit193: wanna argue your -1 against apturl a little? it came up already during the meeting that you had voiced an unapproving opinion but it was never clear why
<Unit193> ochosi: I mean not really, 'score' already shows it's seeded so it's a bit moot.  It has limited usefulness as it's not used anywhere except the one Ubuntu portal (if there), seems to be barely maintained, and never seems to work as well as it should.
<brainwash> "many persons (NEW USERS) on the xub assistance french forum clic on the apturl links, and ... it doesn't work."
<ochosi> well weird if it has a history of not working
<ochosi> would have been a useful comment on the ML
<ochosi> or even here on the channel, after you noticed we started a vote
<brainwash> only ubuntu mate installs it by default
<Unit193> I mean, I wasn't connected at all, sooo kind of hard to comment.
<brainwash> I think it would help to showcase some use cases
<ochosi> you mean potential ones from the xubuntu side?
<ochosi> Unit193: sure, it's not too late though
<ochosi> i remember bluesabre was talking about some quick fixes for the qt5 theming mess, which involves mostly installing a bunch of packages
<ochosi> i could image if we have more such use-cases, having a website with certain apturl links for newbies could be helpful
<Unit193> Did anyone test to see if it worked on the default desktop, by chance?
<brainwash> ochosi: the ubuntuusers.de wiki uses apturl links quite often
<brainwash> example https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Thunar/#Installation
<brainwash> ochosi: you mean bug 1728236 ?
<ubottu> bug 1728236 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Should depend on qt5-style-plugins" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1728236
<ochosi> yeah
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-28
<bluesabre> actually, it looks like apturl may no longer be needed
<bluesabre> click on the apt://mplayer link on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptURL and see if GNOME Software behaves
<bluesabre> Oh
<bluesabre> Even more interesting, Firefox doesn't need apturl, chromium does
<bluesabre> although, apturl has it's own installer that gets you away from g-s, so there's that
<bluesabre> apturl also has clearer error messages :D
<bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/MPUFNe0.png vs https://i.imgur.com/tKNbtEh.png
<Unit193> Pahaha, typical g-s.  If you remove g-s and add synaptic, does apturl pull that up correctly?
<bluesabre> good question
<bluesabre> g-s installs it's own apt:// handler, synaptic doesn't have one, so the apturl is the only option presented
<bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/roEmqe6.png
<Unit193> Shiny, seems to be working better too.
<bluesabre> yeah, seems nice
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-dict 0.8.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-dict-0-8-2-released-tp52192.html (by Andre Miranda)
<brainwash> flocculant: I've encountered bug 1798148
<ubottu> bug 1798148 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Live session booting with wrong GTK and icon theme" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798148
<brainwash> xfsettingsd was not running, and no error messages in the logs
<flocculant> brainwash: in dodgy dog or 18.10 ?
<brainwash> flocculant: 18.10
<brainwash> flocculant: so, it's something that can happen, but chances seem to be very low
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Add placement-api to misc-servers. @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=71c19a9e6b6ada1c65acd560424e86a656eecc27 (by Corey Bryant)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-29
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-systemload-plugin 1.2.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-systemload-plugin-1-2-2-released-tp52212.html (by Landry Breuil-2)
<flocculant> brainwash: ack
#xubuntu-devel 2018-12-02
<flocculant> bluesabre: you want to take care of letting #u-release know about 32 bit?
<flocculant> and apturl ... 
<brainwash> bluesabre: what to do with bug 1801629? it's a critical one
<ubottu> bug 1801629 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-core needs to depend on cryptsetup and lvm2 or 'apt autoremove' will make a LUKS+LVM encrypted root partition non-bootable" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1801629
<brainwash> maybe something the ubuntu devs should look into?
<bluesabre> flocculant: on it
<bluesabre> brainwash: yeah, most likely. Interestingly, it seems kubuntu-desktop already depends on those
<bluesabre> (and nobody else)
<flocculant> bluesabre: okey doke :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: so, if everyone needs to depend on this, then it should be handled somewhere central
<bluesabre> brainwash: yeah, you're probably right
<Unit193> So obviously I'll stop doing the 32bit Core builds too.
<knome> well that's obviously your choice, but that sounds like a sensible choice for you :)
<Unit193> Well...The team voiced their opinion on ISOs, I'm sure not going to go against it. :)
<knome> well it's just for the main ISO, if you want to support 32-bit on core...
<knome> but yeah, it's an indication of some sort
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-25
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is ochosi
<ochosi> seems like irssi doesn't highlight me on those meeting chair reminders..
<Unit193> What's the value of hilight_nick_matches_everywhere?
<Unit193> Oh, right.  Yes that's because it's a notice.
<Unit193> It's sort of intended that it doesn't ping you.
<ochosi> i see
<ochosi> so it's definitely not annoying enough!
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> anyway, g2g
<ochosi> n8
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-26
<smkellat> Anybody awake?  I found something screwy on AskUbuntu and I wanted to make sure I didn't step on somebody's toes first.
<smkellat> Apparently a user there went ahead and named themselves Xubuntu: https://askubuntu.com/users/903128/xubuntu
<smkellat> If anybody wants to chime in, have at it on meta.ask: https://meta.askubuntu.com/questions/18881/names-to-user-accounts
 * smkellat heads off for End Of Day processing
<bluesabre> smkellat: I'm pretty sure that's nobody from our team
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-27
<Unit193> Soooo...Who else does the mailing lists?
<pleia2> me, poorly, wanna help?
<pleia2> oh, you said "else" so you do do them :)
<pleia2> and knome too, but he's been less active
<krytarik> Privately I already offered help on it earlier, but then I'd want to do it the way I figured out works best. :3
<krytarik> (Which would involve being an admin, using the spam filter at the core rather than handling them afterwards, and leaving any moderated and unapproved mails in the queue until they expire.)
<Unit193> pleia2: Hah, I do it poorly too.  I just go through every day or two and delete the spam. :3
<Unit193> krytarik: I just use listadmin, then hope someone will politely reject the real people. :3
<Unit193> !info listadmin
<ubottu> listadmin (source: listadmin): command line mailman moderator queue manipulation. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.42-1.3 (disco), package size 28 kB, installed size 89 kB
<krytarik> I just reflected why exactly I chose to use the spam filter approach - all the handlers that come in effect after a mail has already been through the former only apply to the actual mailing list address, so you'd still get spam to e.g. the -owner address, while the spam filter only exempts the -bounces address which is annoying enough still, but yeah.  And my approach to handling actual ...
<krytarik> ... people so far has been sufficient to either let the mail through or let it linger and eventually expire in the queue same as the spam ones. :3
<krytarik> Unit193: And didn't you mention recently listadmin was broken currently or something? :3
<Unit193> Noooo, just the one message in there, if you inspect the body it crashes.  SO I haven't handled that message, but that's the only one I've ever had an issue with.
<krytarik> Ah, ok!  In the meantime I wondered if it might have just been issues with emojis. :P
<Unit193> To be fair, I have the same issues. >_>
<krytarik> You mean with emojis?  Yeeah, ever since I installed fonts-noto-color-emoji, I have the feeling the experience got worse! >_>
<Unit193> Yeah the more ascii look is better, blends in better and doesn't make you think (as less) of the people using them. :3
<krytarik> Imagine someone who has been using smileys excessively originally, now doing the same but with emojis! >_<
<Unit193> Yeeep.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-30
<guiverc> xubu 20.04 daily test; using tablet-pc WITHOUT keyboard..   firefox isn't causing onboard to appear so I can't enter URLs ... yes I could click onboard icon (i have show) but do you want lp bug report on firefox address line not making onboard show?
<guiverc> QA-test install on box with two displays.  The install ends up with display mirrored  (graphics card related I believe); I've only noted in testcase log (is.qa.ubu..)
