#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-20
<titus`work> hi
<sladen> titus`work: I think you're a day and few hours early
<titus`work> yes I know
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-21
<Simira> ,
<Seveas> !
<Seveas> When does the meeting pre-party start?
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> 76 minutes to go
<\sh> hmmm...meeting started? ,-)
<ivoks> undercover meeting :)
<mdz> good morning
<ivoks> 'evening
<mdz> pitti: thanks for the reminder
<DanielN> good evening :)
* pitti waves
<\sh> DanielN: check your mail for the bugs
<mdz> welcome to the Ubuntu technical board meeting
<DanielN> \sh: k
<pitti> darn, EWIKITIMEOUT
<\sh> hey mdz
<mdz> pitti: heh, me too
<mdz> any minute now, the wiki will respond to my request for the agenda
<Seveas> :)
<mdz> meanwhile, has anyone heard a funny joke lately?
<Keybuk> mdz: it's been not responding to my request for the last ~5 minutes
<pitti> we could discuss the name of the new libaqbanking-plugins-libgwenhywfar17c2 package...
<mdz> hehe
<ivoks> :)
<Seveas> Okay in the meantime i want to ask you something: I am trying to collect meeting statistics, so if you would be so kind as to visit www.ubuntulinux.nl/time and submite your data i would be very grateful, kthxbye :)
<jbailey> mdz: A skeleton goes into a bar, asks for a beer and a mop...
<mdz> ok, got the agenda
<mdz> jbailey: thanks
<mdz> the agenda has only the stock items
<mdz> so let's start with MaintainerCandidates
<DanielN> \sh: i'll "kmmern mich drum" :) (sorry for german)
<mdz> rather than wait for another wiki page to load, please speak up if you're here to be considered for maintainership
<\sh> DanielN: and put your name again in the list of cxx please...
<pitti> thw two golden rules to success:
<pitti> 1. Never tell everything you know
* \sh is StephanHermann 
* ivoks is AnteKaramatic
<pitti> oops, no joke time any more, sorry
* DanielN is DanielNeuenschwander
<herve> \sh, ivoks, you ain't already?
<mdz> DanielN: welcome.  you are applying for maintainership?
<\sh> herve: only for the data
<DanielN> for MOTU. yeaj :)
<DanielN> yeah i mean 
<mdz> I'm not familiar with your work; is there someone from the MOTU team who can tell us more about the work you have been doing with MOTU?
<\sh> *nods*
<\sh> herve: u too :) do u wanna start?
<Treenaks> mdz: I've seen him hang around the MOTU channel :)
<herve> I can tell ivoks made huge work for the cxx transition
<Treenaks> I don't know much more really
<ivoks> herve: ? :)
<herve> but I only reviewed a couple of his changes
<\sh> herve: danielN is the matter
<\sh> good morning HERVE!
<\sh> ;)
<herve> hu... hello?
<ivoks> herve: take a shower
<\sh> ok, let me say something
<herve> \sh, I was not really present lately
<mdz> \sh: please
<herve> but I have a high opinion of these guys
<\sh> danielN is still learning..he learns fast, but (even if he's disappointed now) I would like to have at least 2 weeks more time with him
* herve nods
<herve> it's too fresh for DanielN
<DanielN> \sh: not disappointed. that's the same what i thought tonight before the meeting :)
<mdz> in the absence of further information, I think we need to defer until at least the next meeting
<\sh> I reviewed some things from cxx transition and i have to say, he will strengthen motu but right now, we have to tell him some spells :)
<mdz> DanielN: please return then, and try to arrange for your peers to speak on your behalf
<herve> DanielN, and you'll have packages of your own in breezy by that time ;-)
<mdz> GerardoDiGiacomo should be removed from the list; we already processed him
<mdz> who is Stephen Shirley?
<DanielN> herve: talking about when?
<herve> mdz, \sh
<\sh> no
<mdz> herve: no, he's Stephan hermann
* \sh is not Stephen Shirley
<herve> DanielN, yes... if I can download it ;-)
<mdz> is Sren Hansen here?
<herve> \sh, sorry, I mean it when I say I'm tired :)-
<\sh> herve: hehe
<mdz> JerryHaltom is wasabi; he doesn't seem to be around
<mdz> but I'm comfortable considering him anyway
<mdz> Keybuk: what about you?
<Keybuk> if people are willing to speak about him, sure
<mdz> I've been working directly with him on the java transition over the past couple of weeks
<herve> ok, I even lost what maintainership is for...
<mdz> and I would be comfortable with him continuing to do his work now that we're moving toward Java in main
<jbailey> I worked with him on the plan for the Java transition before and he knows his stuff.
<mdz> if doko is here, he has worked with him quite a bit as well
<jbailey> doko sent his regrets earlier.
<Keybuk> jbailey: if you had a vote, would you give him upload to main?
<jbailey> Keybuk: I've never seen his packaging outside of Java apps.  Do we have restricted upload?
<pitti> mdz: we can call him on his mobile, he told me that he would be back soon, but mobile will be on
<jbailey> If yes, I'd do that, otherwise I'd say yes, and ask him to please make sure he's working with others.
<jbailey> He's good with asking questions.
<Keybuk> ok, I'll give him a yes then
<mdz> ok, that's a majority
<mdz> congratulations to Jerry
<\sh> welcome to main :)
<mdz> I'll update the page after the meeting
<mdz> any other business?
<\sh> what about the rest? 
<\sh> cleaning?
<mdz> that's the end of the list
<mdz> the rest are people who did not show up for a meeting and need to reschedule themselves
<mdz> we're finished unless anyone has an appropriate agenda item
<mdz> ok, meeting adjourned
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<ivoks> np
<ivoks> :)
<Nafallo> 13 minutes :-)
<\sh> i wonder why there is a big piece of ice in my bottle of lemon juice
<herve> wow, that was the shorted or what?
<mdz> same time, June 28th
<Nafallo> thanx
<Seveas> hmm :)
<Seveas> congratz on the record of the shortest meeting ever
<pitti> no, we already had an 8 minute one
<Nafallo> lol
<Seveas> omg
<Seveas> also TechBoard?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-23
<squinn> date --utc
<Lathiat> Thu Jun 16 14:55:30 UTC 2005
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdke] : Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdke] : Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
<mdke> (put in new tech board date, changed to chronological order)
<mdke> good evening everyone
<hno73> good evening all
* gtaylor moos
<mdke> hi henrik
* hno73 regrets that he can only stay for about 30min. today
<mdke> np
<mdke> its late
<hno73> mdke: hi :)
<mdke> just got an sms from jerome
<mdke> he says "just woke up, give me a few minutes"
<hno73> jepp. got life stuff :)
<hno73> :)
<yann_> good evening folk :)
<hno73> perhaps we can do some introductions? hno73 is Henrik Nilsen Omma
<Ju> Hi !
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> <-- Matthew East
<hno73> while we wait
<mdke> hi Ju, we're just introducing ourselves
<Ju> ok
<ostaquet> hi all
<judax> <-- Troy Williams
<JonA> Hello all.
<JonA> <-- Jon Atkinson
<ostaquet> <-- Olivier Staquet
<mdke> buonjour :)
<Ju> Ju <-- Julien Rottenberg
<mdke> soir
<gtaylor> <-- Greg Taylor
<Methu> Evening !
<Methu> <-- Martin POTIER
<yann_> <-- Yann Hamon , ubuntu-fr
<mdke> welcome yann_ 
<squinn> oh ah i'm here
<squinn> oops wake up me
<squinn> <--- Sean D. Quinn
<mdke> evening froud, we're just introducing ourselves
<squinn> hi froud. i'll go by squinn or SeanQ for lack of confusion with froud
<yann_> (is this reunion logued, well, is it someone going to put it online?)
<mdke> yann_, yes this channel is logged
<methu> So, when do we start ?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdke] : Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-24
<squinn> Let's roll, guys.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Burgundavia] : Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with 
<Burgundavia> gah
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Burgundavia] : Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || UTC time with "date --u
<mdke> length
<mdke> cut the log thing if you like
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Burgundavia] : Logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel || UTC time with "date --ut
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Burgundavia] : Logs - http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel || UTC time with "date --utc
<Burgundavia> there
<mdke> phew
<mdke> right
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Burgundavia] : Logs - http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 16 June 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel || UTC time --> "date --utc"
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> are we gonna wait for jerome?
<Burgundavia> that is the last changed
<Burgundavia> sorry for the flood
* mdke hands Burgundavia some paracetomol
<mdke> the agenda is very long
<mdke> perhaps we should start
<hno73> do we have a chair? mdke? jerome?
<mdke> maybe jerome wants to do it
<hno73> ok
<mdke> in any case, for those that want to take a look right now, the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting
<mdke> evening jeffsch 
<jeffsch> howdy
<mdke> we've just been introducing ourselves
<squinn> I'm new to the project as I noted in #ubuntu-doc
<squinn> And again, I'm Sean. 
<Seveas> Howdy all :)
<jeffsch> <- Jeff Schering
<mpt> The more Seans, the merrier
<Seveas> I am Dennis
<squinn> I'm not trying to steal the limelight, and I'll shut up after this -- I'm just saying this for benefit of those not in #ubuntu-doc
<mdke> mpt, :)
<mpt> Same for Jeffs and Matthews
* mdke nods
<JonA> I'm also new, as I posted to ubuntu-doc list.
<mpt> There can only be one Mako, though
<Seveas> hehe :)
<mdke> JonA, squinn, you're both very welcome
<mdke> perhaps we should crack on
<Seveas> First item: https://wiki.ubuntu.com//DocteamProjects
<hno73> mdke: please go ahead
<mako> i'm going to idle here.. since only part of the agenda concerns cc related stuff, i'm going to keep working on other stuff and reading the traffic
<mdke> ok
<mdke> yes let's deal with the first item
<mako> please mention my name when it gets to cc stuff so i can become more active :)
<mdke> mako, will do, thanks
<mako> thank you :)
<mdke> ok we have a number of projects on the page that Seveas posted
<mdke> who thinks we can have them all ready?
<BeerDump> ok
<Burgundavia> how about taking this direction
<mdke> hi bjs
<froud> +1
<Seveas> If no one did it yet: I was planning to port ubuntuguide to a wikipage in July
<Burgundavia> we need somebody to take the lead for each project
<jsgotangco> sorry
<Burgundavia> Seveas, already in SVN
<Seveas> ok
<mdke> Burgundavia, I think that is a nice idea
<Seveas> so someone did it :)
<mdke> Seveas, froud did it, but it is not maintained there right now
<jsgotangco> is mako online
<Burgundavia> anything that doesn't have a lead doesn't get considered
<mdke> so can people express opinions about Burgundavia's idea?
* Seveas agrees
* jeffsch agrees
<froud> +1
<Seveas> but is not an official docteam member..
* hno73 agrees
<mdke> Seveas, not necessary
<Seveas> ok
<jsgotangco> theres no such thing as official in docteam at the moment :)
<mdke> jsgotangco, what are your thoughts on Burgundavia's idea?
<jsgotangco> all projects needs leads
<jsgotangco> or else it won't go anywhere
<yann_> +1
<mdke> so there is general agreement
<hno73> A person or a group should stay in regular contact with those "project owners" to monitor how things are going
<mdke> hno73, ++
<jdub> mdke: in the interests of making sure everything's top quality, i'd recommend dodging the administrator's guides for this release
<gtaylor> Group leaders should post updates on the DocteamProjects page regularly as to the status of their project(s).
<hno73> So that we don't fall behind by surprise
<Seveas> that's the way the techboard is doing things too and since Ubuntu rocks, this seems to work :)
<jsgotangco> hold on let me switch to my laptop
<mdke> hno73, i think that the "status" should be more regularly updated, that would help
<mdke> gtaylor, +
<froud> jdub: +1
<mdke> jdub, i tend to agree
<hno73> jdub: agree
<gtaylor> jdub: agree also
<Seveas> ++jdub
<JonA> gtaylor: agree.
<mdke> shall we deal with the matter of who is prepared to take responsibility for projects this evening?
<Seveas> mdke, I see no reason not to...
<mdke> i would also like to discuss the question of other projects
<jdub> mdke: (please ping me when you get to other projects) :)
<mdke> an obvious one is the HelpfulHelp page
<mdke> jdub, will do
<mdke> ok before moving on to that, let's deal with the question of who can take responsibility for various projects
<hno73> volunteers?
<mdke> let's start with kde, it will be easy ;)
* gtaylor Will take something KDE :)
* froud too
<mdke> kde quickguide is already managed by jerome, i suggest that continues?
<gtaylor> quickguide is nearing completion too
<jsgotangco> mdke, its almost done gtaylor and troy can finish them :)
<mdke> About Kubuntu, Kubuntu User Guide, Kubuntu Release Notes, Kynaptic User Manual ??
<jsgotangco> most of the text atm are from them now
<mdke> volunteers
<judax> I will take a KDE project as well
<mdke> jsgotangco, excellent :D
<gtaylor> I'd be willing to take on Kynaptic but I heard something about it not moving upstream?
<froud> there is also install guide
<Burgundavia> kynpatic was quick hack
<mdke> froud, good point
* Seveas is willing to take on install guide
<Burgundavia> I think that the stuff at FindingPackages will take over
<mdke> good
<judax> install PDF needs to get done
<gtaylor> Burgundavio: Then is it necessary to maintain the kynaptic docs under ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> judax, making formats is very easy when the document is there
<Burgundavia> gtaylor, for now, we need something
<mdke> in any case, we have plenty of volunteers for the kde docs, perhaps they can be divvied up later
<Seveas> mdke, install guide is not mentioned at that page...
<gtaylor> Burgundavia: I wrote a pretty thorough guide for it in quickguide
<mdke> Seveas, thanks for pointing that out
<mdke> Seveas, I will be happy to write up minutes of the meeting, that way it won't get forgotten
<Seveas> nice
<froud> install guide is gubuntu and kubuntuin one file
<mdke> froud, we will come to that issue I'm sure
<mdke> who is interested in helping out on the Gnome projects on that page
<squinn> Lemme get this straight. Is the install guide = ubuntu guide[.org] ?
<Seveas> install guide just covers the basics of partitioning, installing and pointers to starter docs imho
<mdke> squinn, not at all
<jsgotangco> squinn, no
<JonA> mdke: I'm willing to help on the GNOME side.
<Seveas> ubuntuguide is a page filled with misinformation...
<mdke> JonA, great!
<squinn> Then what are we talking about when we say ubuntu guide?
<mdke> Seveas, we can come to that later too
<squinn> I'm at DocTeamProjects, yet still confused.
<froud> Seveas: yu can see it in FAQ Guide
<mdke> JonA, do you have a particular document you are interested in from that page?
<mdke> discount the administration guide
<JonA> The User Guide or the About Ubuntu doc are fine by me.#
<mdke> great
<mdke> I am also prepared to contribute on the Gnome side
<JonA> Considering it's my first contribution, the About Ubuntu doc might be better, it's shorter :-(
<jdub> mdke: how will installer guide relate to existing installer documentation? user-centric vs. advanced?
<mdke> jdub, i am not familiar with it, but froud can help you
<Seveas> mdke, I envision a step-by-step document that explains a lot
<froud> jdub: basic install is the default
<jsgotangco> jdub, its pretty basic
<jdub> mdke: note that this is not listed on that page
<froud> branches in doc to more advanced
<squinn> I'll be back later..I'll catch a log.
<mdke> jdub, yes noted
<mdke> anymore volunteers for those Gnome projects?
* Seveas if I have some time left :)
<gtaylor> In a pinch I can help
<mdke> don't forget the importance of gnome to Ubuntu :D
<JonA> I'll attempt anything if needed...
<judax> I can help too, where needed
<Burgundavia> I will help but not take lead on anything
* Seveas dislikes KDE, so I see the importance of gnome
<mdke> ok thanks for your interest all, i suggest we pursue this matter at a later stage
<jdub> so the install guide you're talking about is like a 5 page "DON'T PANIC" thing?
<mdke> as in, who is gonna take lead for what
<froud> who takes lead on gubuntu user guide
<hno73> let's post a list of orphaned projects in the meeting summary
<mdke> hno73, +
<jsgotangco> mdke, project leads can be discussed later
<Seveas> jdub, well, plus some background info in appendices
<mdke> jsgotangco, i agree
<jsgotangco> we'll clean up the wiki page for now
<hno73> jsgotangco: agree
<Seveas> s/some/a lot where needed/
<froud> jdub: first aim at 10 pages but can be expanded
<mdke> let's move onto the next topic
<jdub> froud: that's longer than basic coverage, and starts getting into existing documentation territory
<Seveas> StyleGuide
<mdke> I would like to postpone discussion of the Styleguide until after the third issue, given that hno73 has to leave soon
<mdke> objections?
<hno73> mdke: thanks
<jsgotangco> ok
<Seveas> ok
<mdke> great
<froud> jdub: graphic installer mostly pictures
<mdke> ISSUE:  Create roadmap for future docteam - developer - community relations in future projects with the help of the Community Council
<mdke> mako, jdub ping
<jdub> mdke: you going to do 'other projects' later too?
<mdke> jdub, yes
<jdub> froud: i guess it might be better to state it as 'ubuntu express documentation'
<mdke> jdub, straight after this then
<mdke> jdub, my fault
<mdke> mark brought this issue up at the CC after the recent problems on the list
<jdub> mdke: only if that's what it's intended to be :-)
<yann_> at ubuntu-fr, we got plenty of people just expecting someone to tell them want to translate. We would love someone from the english team to do that
<yann_> -want +what
<mdke> yann_, I am happy to do that
<mdke> yann_, if you are around we can talk afterwards
<hno73> We should have a set location to post WIP and set some dates where we invite devels to have a look
<mako> sorry
<hno73> (or other editors/proofreaders)
<mdke> mark suggested at the council meeting that the docteam be encouraged to attend meetings and discuss issues there
<froud> hno73: we would like docteam.u.c
<hno73> froud: in what format? HTML pages?
<froud> yes
<mdke> ok these are two separate issues
<mako> froud: i think that's reasonable
<hno73> ok, generated from SVN
<mdke> does anyone have anything to say on the Community Council front?
<froud> yes
<hno73> in some human readable format, whatever it is
<froud> hno73: yes html  pages building from svn co
<mako> froud: please go ahead
<hno73> mako: do other teams report to CC at regular intervals?
<hno73> how does that work? Is there a system we could model the interaction on?
<mako> hno73: not normally. but they usually coordinate frequently with folks from the TB
<hno73> right
<mako> most teams are basically distro subprojects
<mako> so they work closely with matt or others to track progress, etc
<hno73> perhaps in this case we need a schedule
<mako> sure
<hno73> since the links are week ATM
<hno73> weak
<mako> perhaps the CC has been lacking in this regard and relationships to it's groups
<mako> locos, docteam, forums, etc
<hno73> could be, yes
<mako> so, mark has said "come to the meetings" which is a pretty easy things to say
<mako> communicate with me/elmo/mark/kamion.. maybe write up a few paragarphs of report for the wiki and try to have someone at the docteam
<mako> sorry
<mako> the CC meeting
<mako> if people think that's useful, i'd be happy to ping a representative 2-3 days before meetings to remind folks
<jsgotangco> i don't think teams really need to rely on the CC that much, just some direction i guess
<mdke> i believe that it might be useful if there are disputes
<mdke> is that what mark had in mind?
<mako> mdke: i'm not sure
<mako> but sure
<jsgotangco> well disputes definitely can be directed towards the CC for sure
<mako> if there are any disputes, the CC is a good place to elevate to
<mako> that's what it's there for
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> anyway, going back, to the topic, the relations between teams like docteam are more technical oriented
* Seveas thinks: reputation system
* froud got split, missed
<mdke> Seveas, yes indeed
<hno73> I'm just thinking that it would be good to have a schedule to work against, working backwards from the Breezy release date  
<mdke> hno73, i agree, to some extent we work within breezy's roadmap
<mdke> but we could be more specific
<hno73> and that giving some reports to CC or TB might be a good way to measure progress
<jdub> hno73: once the docteam gets into a rhythm, scheduling stuff can be reported back to go in the release schedule
<Seveas> Project leader should make up their timeline
<mako> i think all release coordination stuff should really go through the distro TB, eh jdub?
<Seveas> and should release something together with Breezy
<mako> or through jdub i guess
<jdub> mako: TB
<mako> so, in so far as something is a feature goal, it's a TB issue
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> yes
<mako> in so far as it's a structual, advocacy, or intra or inter-team conflict, it's CC
<jsgotangco> right
<mdke> with the team so small, it may be difficult to structure roadmaps for each doc
<mako> of course, i'm happy to help bat for you guys in other situation as well
<mdke> but we can try maybe?
<mako> mdke: it can be one larger roadmap that takes the different docs into account, no?
<Seveas> mdke, well, if every doc has a leader (leaders might have more docs), all docs can have a roadmap too
<mdke> mako, possibly
<Seveas> most of these roadmap can be pretty similar though
<mdke> mako, we certainly work within the breezy timeline 
* hno73 regrets he has to go now. Looks like a nice meeting :)
<mdke> hno73, night
<Seveas> g'bye hno73 
<hno73> goodnight all
<jsgotangco> hno73, much appreciated you coming here
<jsgotangco> ack
<Seveas> :] 
<elmo> mark's on his way, FWIW
<mdke> great
<mdke> before he gets here, shall we deal with the two issues we missed out?
<Seveas> k
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> styleguide
<mdke> jsgotangco, sorry we missed something before that too
<jdub> mdke: so, i'd suggest you not worry about a more detailed schedule than the distro one until you start seeing the requirements
<Seveas> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide I presume?
<mdke> ISSUE: other projects not mentioned on the project page (ping jdub, mpt)
<sabdfl> evening all
<jdub> mdke: go for style guide first
<jsgotangco> sabdfl, hi
<sabdfl> sorry for being very late
<mpt> evening sabdfl
<Nafallo> hi sabdfl 
<Seveas> welcome sabdfl 
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: could you summarise the current position for me please?
<mdke> possibly we can finish off the Community Council discussion now
<sabdfl> as per this meeting, i've read DocteamNextIRCMeeting
<jsgotangco> mdke, can you summarise? i came in late as well *blushes*
<mdke> sabdfl, we were just saying that we would be happy to interact with the CC
<jsgotangco> (sorry about that)
<mdke> sabdfl, what is it precisely that you had in mind?
<mdke> (we're on the third bullet point from the top btw)
<mdke> (Create roadmap for future docteam - developer - community relations in future projects with the help of the Community Council)
<sabdfl> as the community grows, some stresses and strains are inevitable
<sabdfl> i'd like to establish the idea that those are resolved as amicably as possible between groups, if necessary with the help of the CC
<mdke> yes
<mdke> the yelp business and the forum friction are examples
<sabdfl> in this case, it seemed to me that we need to work harder to bring the doc team into the mainstream of the activities of the project
<sabdfl> it's my mistake that i've missed this point till now, and i apologise
<froud> +1
<Seveas> +2
<mdke> ++
<gtaylor> +
<sabdfl> we've seen excellent work being done
<JonA> +1
<mdke> i can speak for all when i say that we are happy to hear that
<sabdfl> we've also seen some unnecessary frustration
<sabdfl> there are a couple of principles i'd like to propose:
<sabdfl>  - volunteers should feel they have the freedom to pursue whatever technical and substantial interests they have
<sabdfl> if we can accomodate those with core infrastructure, we will, if not, we'll orgnaise Linode virtual servers so guys can get root somewhere and play to their hearts content
<sabdfl> that said, we should have regular meetings, so we at least have a mutual idea of what our current interests are
<sabdfl> from the CC side, we can lay out a roadmap of the project, and what issues will likely be important at different times
<mdke> IMO it is important to keep a core methodology that is consistent with what -devel is doing
<sabdfl> and from the teams, lay out the status and the skills on board, and their itches to be scratched
<sabdfl> mdke: we can never guarantee consistency, but a lack of communication will certainly guarantee a lack of it :-)
<mdke> sabdfl, communication is the big thing
<sabdfl> i'm happy for someone to go off at a tangent
<sabdfl> for all i know, that tangent is more interesting and more important than my own master plan
<sabdfl> so good luck to you if that's where you're headed!
<mdke> to what degree are these issues CC jurisdiction and TB jurisdiction?
<sabdfl> but it's still useful to have at least an idea of what's going on
<sabdfl> well, rather than thinking of "jurisdiction" think of areas of interest
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> habit
<sabdfl> for example, from a CC point of view, i can tell you that Breezy is all about community, whereas Breezy+1 will be all about certification and support and training
<mdke> i mean in terms of ensuring that the docteam working methodology works for -devel and vice versa
<sabdfl> if that helps you set targets, excellent
<sabdfl> by methodology do you mean tools?
<mdke> i mean, what format of documents we are making, where it is to be published et
<mdke> et/etc
<sabdfl> mdke: TB is likely to have the strongest interest in that
<sabdfl> the main thing is to see that even the -devel guys will have different opinions
<jsgotangco> mdke, how we create our docs would be our own business but the formats needed in release would definitely be TB
<sabdfl> so rather than getting into a frustrating yes! no! yes! no! dialog with one or two, this stuff should be framed as a formal proposition and brought to the whole TB
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah, but if we write profiled or qanda docs that are not viewable in yelp, we're gonna have a problem
<sabdfl> i sensed there was a huge amount of frustration, and yet it had never been brought to the TB or CC
<mdke> sabdfl, ++
<sabdfl> that surprised me
<sabdfl> mdke: kubuntu is just as important
<mdke> sure
<sabdfl> and yelp is not available everywhere
<mdke> just an example
<froud> sabdfl: the main break down happens when devel are not really listening to problems, docteam finds its own solution and the much later, after much effort, devels come back and want to digard the direction
<sabdfl> i don't want to settle that debate here and now - that's the sort of thing that should be brought to the TB
<mdke> ok
<sabdfl> froud: i can appreciate that would piss people off in a significant way
<sabdfl> so if that's happened i apologise
<mdke> we just need to ensure it doesn't happen for the future, by building communication
<sabdfl> i'm sure we can work out anything that needs working out for Breezy, if you put that on TB or CC agenda
<froud> we need to resolve this issue tough
<froud> jdub and I are not eye to eye at present
<mdke> froud, specific issues can be discussed with the TB
<sabdfl> i've said my piece on yelp, which is that AFAIK it is gnome-specific, and that doesn't sort out the needs of the broader ubuntu community
<sabdfl> beyond that i'm not qualified, and even that is possibly and over simplification
<sabdfl> so let's leave that to a proper discussion of the TB
<froud> fair enough
<mdke> yep
<sabdfl> I would like the docteam guys to have someone present for TB and CC meetings
<sabdfl> i would also like to ask them to ENSURE that we have something "big picture" on EVERY TB or CC meeting agenda
<mdke> cool
<sabdfl> by that, i mean that for each meeting we have something that relates to where we are going, why, what the big picture is
<sabdfl> because that long range vision will mean we worry less about the times we stub our toe on a minor disagreement
<sabdfl> because we know what's minor and what's major
<mdke> ok we're making great progress
<sabdfl> so hold us to that standard
<froud> +1
<jsgotangco> true enough
<sabdfl> rather than just doing admin, appointing members and maintainers, we should be using those meetings to build more of a shared vision of what the project is about
<froud> +1
<sabdfl> a lot of that has happened in the regular face-to-face developer summits
<sabdfl> at UDU we tried to capture more of that in a public media so we could all have it there to discuss
<mdke> yeah
<sabdfl> i hope that's helped
<mdke> can we consider this issue resolved? everything on the agenda under the title "Issues to be discussed with Community Council and Developers" can be brought up at either TB or CC?
<mako> i think that creating a process by which people interact more with folks like the TB and CC often will provide an avenue by which people won't be suprrised as much as will have a better way to deal with when they do
<sabdfl> but we cna do even better
<sabdfl> ok
* mako nods
<sabdfl> so let's say that the doc team becomes a formal project team
<sabdfl> we ask you to have regular meetings
<sabdfl> we ask you to have someone from TB or CC present when you do
<sabdfl> and to post a summary of those to -devel and -traffic (mako?)
<sabdfl> and to attend the TB and CC meetings
<mdke> that is an exciting prospect
<mako> summaries of all meetings can go directly to -news in their own article
<mako> they will be included in -traffic
<mako> a meeting summary is news
<sabdfl> and make sure we talk about real project vision and direction
<mdke> we should address the issue of who is to do these summaries and administrative tasks?
<mdke> we are not large in number
<mdke> yet...
<sabdfl> i'm happy to provide funding for a secretarial position, as enrico did
<mako> ping me when you send something to news the first time and i'll moderate your message and whitelist you
<jsgotangco> mdke, im happy to do it
<jsgotangco> mdke, as i've been doing it for now
<mdke> sabdfl, there you go :)
<sabdfl> it was enrico that first alerted me to the current rash of issues, so i'd like to thank him for keeping an eye on what's going on
<mdke> bravo enrico
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: if there's a nice way we can support you, appropriately, let me know
<jsgotangco> yes enrico is very much avisibly active
<jsgotangco> sabdfl, will do, thanks.
<sabdfl> i've asked hno73 (henrik omma) to be a regular point of contact
<sabdfl> but remember, you are a real team that has real authority in the project, and you actually report to the CC not to any individual
<sabdfl> in time i'd like you to choose a team lead, but i think it's too soon for that now
<sabdfl> one thing about that authority
<mdke> a team secretary is great
<mdke> like enrico
<sabdfl> sometimes you'll find new guys come along and want to do things differnetly
<sabdfl> don't put them down
* mdke nods
<froud> +1
<jsgotangco> yes, i've already encountered that in edubuntu :)
<sabdfl> i've noticed a little bit of "we're the bosses round here"
<sabdfl> live and let live
<mdke> i agree
<sabdfl> by being bestorganised and most focused you'll effectively lead all doc efforts, but don't try to block other efforts
<sabdfl> in the same way you bristled when someone with an @ubuntu.com email said "crapola", the new guys might feel the same way
<sabdfl> and speaking of which, how many of you are members now?
* mdke puts half a hand up
<sabdfl> ?
<jsgotangco> we currently have 4 active svn committers
* JonA is in the process of becoming one :-)
* Burgundavia is 
<sabdfl> mdke: ?
<mdke> sabdfl, my key is not in the strong set
<froud> 6
<sabdfl> key is not needed for membership, only maintainership
<gtaylor> hopefully someday
<mdke> sabdfl, a signed CoC is needed
<sabdfl> if you are a member, you can get an @ubuntu.com email
<sabdfl> mdke: you can sign on paper and fax it
* Seveas is a member
<mako> mdke: quite a few people do
<mdke> i will do that
<mdke> although I'd like to get the key signed too :D
<froud> sabdfl: what is the purpose of this?
<sabdfl> it's not a canonical ltd thing, email@ubuntu.com is the project
<sabdfl> froud: of opening up the email addresses?
<froud> yes
<Seveas> mdke, if you happen to live near Amsterdam, I can sign it :)
<sabdfl> ubuntu is much bigger than canonical, i believe
<mdke> Seveas, i'm in london
<mdke> Seveas, but its an excuse for a holiday...
<Seveas> lol :)
<froud> sabdfl: why do I need another adress
<sabdfl> i hope soon to nominate someone outside of canonical to the CC, and those of you who are members will be voting to conrim or veto that nomination
<sabdfl> froud: you can ask for it to forward to your existing one, or just not activate it
<sabdfl> it's simply there for those who want it
<mdke> ok we're going OT a little
<jsgotangco> ok ok, i think we're going way out of topic
<froud> Hmmmm, so this is a token tick thing?
<mdke> can we close this issue now
<mdke> lots more on the agenda
<froud> yes mv on
<sabdfl> happy with item 3?
<mdke> i am
<froud> +1
<judax> +1
<sabdfl> ok
<mdke> jdub, other projects now?
<sabdfl> w.r.t. svn access rights, how many of you have played with Baz?
<jsgotangco> i did
<gtaylor> not I but I know some svn
<froud> me
<froud> sucks
<froud> is it tla or baz
<sabdfl> froud: i use it every day, and it's made a huge difference to team workflow on LP
<froud> cant decide
<jsgotangco> we barely use 10% of what svn can do
<mdke> is either jdub or mpt around?
<mdke> or jeffsch ?
<mpt> yup
<jdub> mdke: i am
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> NEXT ISSUE: projects that are not on the official projects page. An obvious one is to be found here http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
<sabdfl> baz is the butterfly emerging from the caterpillar that was tla :-)
<jeffsch> yep
<sabdfl> wait hold on, there's a reason i brought it up
<mdke> k
<sabdfl> it seems the problem you are having is a social one, not a tech one
<sabdfl> about permissions
<jsgotangco> yes
<mpt> mdke: HelpfulHelp needs approving by sabdfl or someone, it might be complete crack as it is currently :-)
<sabdfl> distributed revision control greatly reduces that
<sabdfl> anybody who wants to start making changes can just create a branch, then other people can merge from them and commit
<Seveas> mpt, indeed, I see some serious wrongnesses in that page
<mdke> mpt, but you intend it to be a docteam project right?
<jsgotangco> sabdfl, the current process is that we ask enrico to ask froud for svn access to someone we recommend
<mpt> mdke: for sure
<froud> sabdfl: you want us to move to baz
<sabdfl> it takes a little getting used to, but it's seriously worthwhile
<jsgotangco> i mean ask elmo
<mdke> mpt, lets put this on hold for a minute until the baz question is over
<sabdfl> froud: yes, i'd like you to evaluate it
<jdub> long term, it will be hard to avoid baz
<froud> sabdfl: most ppl found it hard using svn :_0
<sabdfl> it means that there's much less of a blockage around svn commit permissions
<jdub> it will be the best way for doc people to work with upstream documentation
<sabdfl> froud: good point, ad baz is conceptually harder
<froud> sabdfl: I like the mirrors from tla
<Seveas> Well, then the docteam sould make baz docs :)
<froud> and technically it is better solution
<gtaylor> sabdfl: svn is definitely challenging for some of the more non-technical writers, if Baz is moderately more complex even conceptually, I'd recommend against it. But then again, I've never used Baz.
<jsgotangco> froud, we can probably evaluate baz for now and target the use for it in the future release post-breezy
<sabdfl> gtaylor: it is more difficult, but then, it's a sure-fire candidate for some doc-team love
<mdke> jsgotangco, ++
<froud> gtaylor: you are right
<gtaylor> Some people take being able to commit and change things easily for granted. There are people who want to help but are scared away by technicalities.
<sabdfl> i thin you could setup a workflow which says:
<sabdfl>  - ANYBODY can contribute. just (a) baz get http://docs.ubuntu.com/docs@ubuntu.com/docs--current--0
<sabdfl> (b) edit
<mdke> the possibility of a change in methods can be evaluated, but the project of getting docs together should not be slowed down as that is the short term breezygoal
<sabdfl> (c) baz commit -s "my changes"
<sabdfl> then ask for a merge
<sabdfl> ok
<jdub> sabdfl: it introduces new social problems too :)
<gtaylor> That's similar to the way things are now, we email patches in whereas we'd be requesting a merge.
<sabdfl> don't let baz get in the way, but please make a note of it as the recommended way to break revision control blockages
<JonA> Would it be worthwhile me nailing together a couple of simple shell scripts to make using Baz simpler for those less technical writers?
<sabdfl> we will move the ENTIRE distro into baz over the coming months
<Seveas> gtaylor, but emailing patches is way more overhead
<sabdfl> so ANYBODY can fork and merge an ubuntu package
<Seveas> sabdfl, wow!
<gtaylor> That's interesting
<Seveas> that's, well...., awesome!
<sabdfl> we will provide a tool called HCT, currently in alpha testing, that makes this possible
<froud> yo dudes
<judax> that is indeed interesting
<sabdfl> OT
<mdke> ok can somebody open a thread about this on the list?
<froud> slow down
<froud> stop a sec
<froud> the bottleneck
<froud> its not svn
<froud> its elmo
<froud> it is not a technical problem
<elmo> err?
<froud> hello elmo
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> it is simply a matter of getting people commit access
<elmo> I've had 3 requests recently, the first of which was on Tuesday
<gtaylor> elmo: Not in a bad way, you're a busy guy :0
<mdke> (he means)
<sabdfl> froud: any system that is designed to filter all requests through one person is broken by design
<froud> thanks mdke 
<elmo> the second of which (for two accounts) was sent 4 hours ago
<froud> hy must it be one person
<mdke> elmo, its not your fault!! we are just thinking about the system
<sabdfl> because elmo is our sysadmin, and carries it solo (heriically) at the moment
<mdke> elmo, froud phrased that slightly wrong
<sabdfl> heroically, i meant
<Nafallo> elmo rocks! :-=
<Nafallo> :-)
<sabdfl> with baz, any one can manage mainstream, and merge from everyone else
<jsgotangco> ok requesting commit access to elmo is a trivial issue, i think what's more important is choosing people to actually have commit access to our current svn
<mdke> to be honest, i don't see a problem with obtaining approval for people getting commit access
<sabdfl> you won't have any bottleneck at the center
<mdke> ok
<sabdfl> it won't scale to have to ask elmo all the time
<mdke> postpone to the list please
<jsgotangco> i can just email elmo about people we can sponsor for commit
<mdke> we have lots of issues left on the agenda
<sabdfl> i would rather you setup an  svn server on a linode box and administered it yourselves
<jsgotangco> good point
<Nafallo> sabdfl++
<gtaylor> sabdfl: That would be nice
<jsgotangco> i'll put that in consideration
<sabdfl> ok
<jsgotangco> ok close the svn issue for now
* mdke wipes brow
<gtaylor> agree
<jsgotangco> this is workable
<sabdfl> elmo's in my kitchen, and says he will hanle any request within 72 hours
<sabdfl> if that doesn't happen, let me know
<mdke> we have no problem with elmo, he is fast, and reachable in irc
<sabdfl> but a better system will be either for you to admin it, or to use a distributed RCS like baz
<mdke> lets get back to the issue of mpt's spec on udu
<jsgotangco> ok
<mdke> mpt, you were saying?
<sabdfl> url?
<mdke> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
<mpt> I was saying that no-one's approved it yet, so it might need huge changes, I don't know
<mdke> sabdfl, the issue to be addressed is the adequacy of the docteam projects currently on https://wiki.ubuntu.com//DocteamProjects, and what other projects the docteam can do
<mdke> (ping jdub)
* _froud curses the network
<jdub> (here)
<mdke> jdub, you were saying a while ago that you had some ideas about projects for the team, and that you would email them
<mdke> you have the floor
<jdub> ok, ok
<jdub> oh, ok rather
<jsgotangco> hah
<jdub> so i've spent a bit of time over the last couple of weeks researching the team, speaking to some of you, and looking for ways to help get docteam and developers more acquainted, and finding rad goals for docteam
<jdub> most of this i'll leave to email, but i wanted to raise one project idea which i think will have a big impact on breezy
<jdub> everything listed on the projects page is about *writing* documentation
<jdub> which is incredibly hard stuff
<jdub> and doesn't go all the way towards giving our users the best documentation experience in ubuntu
<jdub> meanwhile, we have enormous amounts of existing documentation available
<jdub> we just need to understand it, organise it, integrate it
<jdub> we made the first steps on this before warty was released
<jdub> by ensuring that documentation registered with the debian doc system was registered with scrollkeeper (thus the html docs like mutt in your yelp)
<jdub> but that was an easy, first step fix
<jdub> and we can do more to get all of our docs integrated into yelp and khelpcenter
<jdub> the first step, on that, is analysis of what we've got
<mdke> what sort of docs are we talking about here? stuff on forums/wiki, or upstream?
<mdke> both maybe?
<jdub> mdke: everything in packages
<mdke> ah ok the latter
<jdub> the in-distro user experience
<jdub> now the great thing about focusing on this is that it naturally tends toward working with the rest of the devel community :)
<mdke> yes
<sabdfl> mpt: big picture, that's a great spec
<sabdfl> jdub: i think you've hit the nail on the head - there's a tremendous amount of low hanging fruit out there. perhaps the hardest part is the stuff which requires integration with the distro, because that requires both doc skills and packagin skills, and lord knows how rarely those overlap :-)
<mpt> sabdfl, thanks
<mdke> technical skills are required definitely
<jdub> mdke: not too much, you know - it's pretty easy stuff
<mdke> cool
<froud> jdub the main question is a technical one what format to ship
<froud> we already register to scrollkeeper
<jgotangco> (sorry bad dsl)
<jdub> mdke: and there are different kinds of docs for people to focus on
<mdke> jsgotangco, will paste you some stuff
<jdub> froud: nono, totally unrelated to understanding what we have
<froud> yes
<froud> and no
<froud> later
<jdub> what we have will impact it
<froud> discuss with you later jdub
<froud> or you want it now
<jdub> no
<froud> ok
<mdke> would you be prepared to head up a group of docteam members prepared to investigate this idea?
<mdke> jdub ^
<jdub> mdke: hopefully hno can help out
<jdub> mdke: i can definitely provide help, but won't be able to spend time dedicated to it
<mdke> we can ask him
<jdub> sorry
<mdke> understood
<mdke> have you discussed the idea with henrik?
<jdub> dedicated to leading it
<jdub> not in detail, but he has a pretty good idea of what i've been thinking about
<mdke> cool
<mdke> ok so shall we follow this issue up on the list?
<jdub> i think it will be more clear with email
<froud> jdub: I think email of the idea will be a good start
<froud> snap :-)
<mdke> great minds think alike
<jdub> so in german, they say 'two fools, same thought'
<mdke> ok now onto mpt's spec
<mdke> is everyone aware of it?
<mdke> Burgundavia, you around?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> :)
<mdke> the issue is, can this spec become a docteam project, and how can it be worked on
<jdub> mdke: can i delve into a couple of technical points?
<jdub> (about this)
<mdke> shoot
<jdub> thanks
<jdub> (now, where to start...)
* froud is lost
<mdke> froud, http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
<jdub> hmm
<froud> at the start
<jdub> ok, so this will be the first-entry page of yelp
<jdub> (this or something very similar to it)
<jdub> so rather than having a funny indexish thing
<jdub> you'll actually have a document as the front page
<jdub> yelp will come with one
<mdke> that is mpt's idea, although my view is that this would exclude the other docs unnecessarily
<jdub> but we can branch it and do whatever we like with it
<jdub> if anyone's seen apple's one, think very similar to it
<Burgundavia> we can manage the implementation of it and keep whomever does develop it on the straight and narrow
<sabdfl> jdub: we can't limit ourselves to yelp in this discussion
<jdub> essentially, this document is the user guide, which can focus on topics of interest rather than applications
<jdub> sabdfl: getting to it
<sabdfl> i think our focus now should be on things people can view in a web browser and print out
<jdub> so can include lots of useful ubuntu-specific and topic-oriented stuff
<mpt> mdke: Researching this was very depressing ... It turns out that if people can't find what they're looking for straight away, they just *give up*. So the user docs need to look like *one* set of docs, even if they're linking off to the Web or whatever. We can't expect people to look in doc X and then doc Y and then doc Z.
<jdub> sabdfl: that's getting into a much deeper discussion
<sabdfl> mpt: we really need a docs-google
<jdub> but can also provide navigation for other documentation
<sabdfl> navigation will always let us down, unless we have real context (as in the widget in the app that the guy is using)
<mpt> sabdfl: Yes, one that also works offline :-)
<mdke> mpt, yeah i see your point
<sabdfl> mpt: local app, of course
<jdub> sabdfl: that's getting way off track
<sabdfl> google on the desktop
<jgotangco> beagle?
<sabdfl> yes it is, but starting to talk about yelp futurisms is equally off base now
<mdke> jsgotangco!
<froud> sabdfl: google api wsdl
<mpt> I also discovered that people usually don't bother with tables of contents, so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp will need simplifying
<mdke> jsgotangco, on topic pls
<jdub> sabdfl: i'm sorry, but we're not
<mpt> (of course, currently with yelp they have no choice)
<sabdfl> froud: it needs to be an app on the desktop, like beagle
<sabdfl> b
<sabdfl> (00:39:31) jdub: you'll actually have a document as the front page
<sabdfl> (00:39:40) jdub: yelp will come with one
<sabdfl> looks like a yelp futurism to me :-)
<jdub> so sabdfl needs more context
<jdub> yelp in GNOME 2.12 will use a document instead of an index as its front page
<mpt> rock
<jdub> mpt is thinking in very similar terms to shaunm
<jdub> also, but less likely, is beagle integration in yelp
<mdke> ok
<mdke> the issue is, is this spec doable
<mdke> and if so, where to put the other documentation
<jdub> mdke: if the user guide is written with this in mind, yes.
<jdub> mdke: ie. it's both a topic-oriented document (the actual content) *and* a way of navigating to other documents
<froud> I think this needs greater considration
<froud> jdub: nothing in lin docs gnome or kde is topic help like described by mpt
<jdub> mdke: also, it could be done independently of the user guide
<froud> mpt has the right idea
<jdub> froud: the content in user guide generally is
<sabdfl> i don't think this spec is doable for breezy
<jdub> the infrastructure for it is not
<froud> but no lin docs are written that way at presnet
<froud> no user guide is manual
<mpt> sabdfl: You mean the "Suggested Breezy goals" section by itself is too ambitious?
<froud> a bool
<froud> book
<sabdfl> i think we need to focus on the first thing jdub raised, which is organising and presenting and coordinating the bulk of docs which are already available
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> yes! i've rasied that before!
<jsgotangco> raised
<froud> how to get all the stuff in wiki to docbook
<sabdfl> no the breezy goals part is ok, i guess
<froud> how to maintain it
<froud> once sorted
<sabdfl> froud: +1
<jdub> froud: that's a separate issue
<mdke> froud, that is changing the subject wholly
<froud> I think you are biting more than you can chew now
<froud> this needs more consideration and discussion
<mdke> i tend to agree as far as the HelpfulHelp is concerned
<froud> thi sforum wont ball it an dbag it
<mdke> the idea is good, but it will require some work
<jdub> guys, lots of conflation here
<jdub> 1. project to analyse and collate existing in-distro documentation
<sabdfl> jdub: as you said, "where to begin"? 
<jdub> ^ we've already talked about it, i'll follow up with email
<sabdfl> this is a huge topic, we are all tired
<froud> sabdfl: +1
<sabdfl> i think we need to start with the tiny part of HelpfulHelp that is currently BreezyGoals
<jdub> mpt's proposal is harder to discuss because we'll have something reasonably similar to it in breezy anyway
<sabdfl> and flesh that out into a real plan
<sabdfl> a lot of that plan should involve the low-hanging fruit jdub identified
<sabdfl> inasmuch as yelp's front document will change, we need to see that and start to massage it as needed
<sabdfl> we need to address froud's question about the framework for writing docs ina collaborative web driven way
<sabdfl> but publishing to book or web
<sabdfl> that's more than enough for breezy
<mdke> ok so the general consensus seems to be to work within the current projects for now, am I wrong?
<froud> wiki
<froud> there is tons of stuff there
<froud> focus
<froud> current projects
<froud> aim at these goals
<jsgotangco> yes these are very doable for now
<froud> our core role is to make the content
<froud> discuss yelp etc in mail
<mdke> good
<mdke> moving on
<jsgotangco> ok anything more
<mdke> quick interim issue before moving on to the styleguide. 
<jdub> whoa, whoa
<froud> docbook and be repurposed to make fit
<jdub> core role is not to *make* the content
<mdke> jdub, he is referring to the projects on https://wiki.ubuntu.com//DocteamProjects
<jdub> maybe i should just address this in email
<froud> ok jdub what is our core role then
<jdub> n/m
<froud> jdub: you have a good idea I also like what mpt is saying
<froud> but we cant ball it and bag it here
<jdub> no, those are unrelated
<jdub> was answering that particular phrase
<jdub> will leave it to mail
<froud> one of the tasks henrik had was to move docs from wiki in to docbook and svn
<froud> we are awaiting a list of these docs
<mdke> froud, 1. that is not his task, and 2. that is not on the agenda
<froud> is there an update
<mdke> we will work on it now that the new wiki is up
<froud> Port wiki docs - we would like to port a number of stable docs from wiki to docbook. Need a list of such docs and process for managing the port and subsequent update of such documents. See here: ./doc
<froud> from the agenda
<sabdfl> ok, guys, we are losing the thread here. let's ajourn, we've made good progress
<mdke> froud, we agreed that that section of the agenda was to be postponed
<jsgotangco> froud, yes but we'll talk to henrik about it as well
<mdke> i'm beginning to lose steam here
<sabdfl> next step, a plan from jdub, a plan from froud, and we'll put those together at a CC level with the doc team
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> moving on
<jsgotangco> sabdfl, any closing before we adjourn
<mdke> we haven't dealt with the styleguide
<froud> sabdfl: a plan on what
<jsgotangco> mdke, styleguide is a docteam issue for now
<mdke> this is a docteam meeting
* mdke hangs on to his patience
<jsgotangco> yes but its quite specific and other people are here
<mdke> ok i give up
<jsgotangco> ill prioritize it next meeting
<sabdfl> froud: a plan on the specific things i highlighted above, plus whatever you think is important
<mdke> sorry for jeffsch tho
<sabdfl> mdke: sorry, i've lost my brains for the night ssomewhere
<mdke> me too ;)
<mpt> thanks for your time, sabdfl
<sabdfl> if you  guys want to continue on docteam formats and tools and plans, please go ahead
<mdke> i'll second that
<sabdfl> i've got to pack it in
<sabdfl> getting old
<mdke> thanks sabdfl 
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> much appreciated
<sabdfl> night all
<gtaylor> see you later
<judax> sabdfl: take care
<jsgotangco> anything else
<froud> mdke: style what about it
<mdke> if you wanna deal with the agenda items, i'm here
<jeffsch> no time for me. I must go to school now
<mdke> otherwise, tell me and i will go to bed
<froud> mdke: shoot dude
<judax> let's finish the agenda
<froud> style
<froud> or what ever
<jsgotangco> ok
<mdke> we need jeffsch for that
<mdke> remember for next meeting
<jsgotangco> styleguide is basically out for contribs
<froud> ok >
<mdke> sorry jeffsch :(
<jsgotangco> yes i'll arrange for that
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, really sorry about this
<jeffsch> i'll live!
<mdke> :-(
<jsgotangco> i'll look into styleguide tonite
<jsgotangco> mdke, have you seen the styleguide
<mdke> no
<froud> whats left
* froud pinches mdke 
<jeffsch> ok. see you all later
<mdke> bye
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> anything else
<mdke> i think the process for new member access should also be discussed, bullet point 4
<mdke> do we still go through enrico?
<froud> mdke: may I
* mpt rofls at the "Draft" watermark on wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> mpt, yeah i cringed
<mdke> froud, course
<froud> the way we accept committers
<mpt> That Seventies Wiki
<mdke> mpt, mental note to rib hno73 about it
<froud> is that we wait to get a few patches
<mdke> naturally
<froud> see what the person is about
<froud> get to know them
<froud> then any of us who
<mdke> but in order to get them access, enrico must confirm, at the present time
<mdke> are we gonna stick with that?
<froud> feels that the person shoul dbe a committer
<froud> yes
<mdke> is enrico still gonna be available?
<froud> person sends public pgp to nominator
<jsgotangco> we can ask him
<froud> who fwd to enrico
<froud> enrico collects them and send to elmo
<mdke> yep ok
<mdke> so basically, we can ask him if he is still happy to play this role
<froud> he does that and our debian
<froud> (packaging)
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> the question of who is to package will also need to be raised later on
<mdke> but we can leave it for now IMO
<froud> bless his cotton socks
<froud> enrico does it but anyone who knows the packaing system can do it
<jsgotangco> would it be ok to ask him what he can do/what he can't?
<mdke> yeah
<froud> if he is not aorund then mdz
<mdke> my guess is the packaging issue can be sorted by the TB
<froud> mdz then delegates
<froud> ok
<jsgotangco> there's also the issue in bugzilla
<mdke> jsgotangco, good point
<froud> ppl seem not to like bz
<jsgotangco> froud, yes, but that is not the point
<froud> sorry 
<froud> what is the point
<mdke> that bugs are reported
<mdke> and need to be assigned
<froud> where?
<mdke> in bugzilla
<froud> where?
<froud> hmmm ppl dont like bz
<froud> some want malone
<mdke> well for now the reality is that there is a documentation section
<froud> that is why they dont use it
<froud> yes
<froud> unused
<mdke> bleh
<froud> so we need to decide
<froud> bz or malone
<jsgotangco> hmm
<froud> I dont care which
<mdke> we don't need to decide right now
<mdke> that is also a TB issue IMO
<froud> fine
<jsgotangco> do we still get bug reports in bz through enrico?
<froud> no
<mdke> afaik he is the default assignee still yes
<froud> you open a bz account and monitor
<froud> yes
<mpt> I'm reasonably sure I'm not giving away any secrets when saying that Ubuntu as a whole is migrating to Malone after Breezy
<froud> I would prefer a mailing list
* froud winks at mpt
<mdke> ok have we had enough on this issue?
<jsgotangco> we'll consider that then
<mdke> investigate with enrico for now
<froud> sure
<jsgotangco> we'll have an overhaul of our structure
<froud> cool
<froud> next >
<mdke> i have an issue :p
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> is froud back on the team?
<froud> shoot
<froud> just visiting
<mdke> yeah?
<froud> I must get things sorted between me an jdub
<mdke> an aweful lots of "we" and "our" flying around froud ;)
<froud> until I see that I am mot going to be ful gas in neutral I an just visiting
<mdke> you are back
<jsgotangco> he can call you up if you want to
<mpt> heh
<mdke> right, re: the wiki->svn thing, I'll follow up in email over the next few days
<mdke> let's get the docteam list buzzing again
<jsgotangco> ok anything more
<jsgotangco> sorry for being late btw
* mdke sits on his hands
<jsgotangco> i'll make up with this by creating the summary (uh oh) since i called the meeting in the first place
<jsgotangco> mdke, thanks for pitching in
<froud> I want the team focused on svn
<mdke> froud, ?
<mdke> [01:11:57]  froud: just visiting
<jsgotangco> heh
<froud> on the targets and to leave the noise
<froud> wiki > svn very important
<froud> and svn > wiki
<froud> but I think this is TB
<froud> thanks
<froud> is that it?
<jsgotangco> ok before that
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> froud, do you suggest we just stay in svn
<jsgotangco> because if we do, we'll have to manage our own svn in the future
<mdke> jsgotangco, not now...
<froud> you mean baz vs svn story
<jdub> mdke: keep in mind that everything will eventually be in baz, whether you guys use svn now or not
<jsgotangco> just a yes or no :)
<mdke> jdub, everything, as in everything?
<jsgotangco> everything
<mdke> gentoo-doc use cvs
<jdub> mdke: but it doesn't really matter now, we're not doing a lot of upstream doc work
<jdub> mdke: ok, so, imagine this
<jdub> gnome-panel comes with documentation, but we make a few changes to the default configuration that conflict with those docs
<mdke> jdub, btw by "not now..." I meant, "let's not get into this now", rather than, "let's not move to baz yet"
<jdub> so a member of the docteam creates a branch of gnome-panel, and changes the documentation appropriately
<mdke> yeah i follow ya
<jdub> they make sure the ubuntu maintainer knows about the branch, and can include it in the list of branches that make up the ubuntu package
<froud> jsgotangco: not a yes or no answerable question. baz has some really great features we can use technically
<froud> but it presents a barrier for newbie users
<froud> needs gui
<froud> mark can give us some basic shell scripts
<froud> abstract the command line complexity
<mdke> just that we agreed to discuss it later
<jdub> because it's in that list, one of the spanish translators picks it up automagically in rosetta
<froud> but the concepts are big
<jdub> and translates the ubuntu modificatiosn
<jsgotangco> froud, HCT, but that's another story :)
<froud> mdke: jdub is right
<jdub> baz is as easy as svn if it's not explained in a revision control system geek kind of way
<judax> <- not afraid of baz *flex*
<jdub> mdke: rock -> just letting you know where we're headed :)
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> jsgotangco: jdub is describing another way to do vendor drops
<froud> an easier way
<mdke> froud, i never disagreed
<froud> jdub: the problem is we need a revision control with baz book
<mdke> just tired
<jdub> froud: yes
<mdke> let's switch to #ubuntu-doc for this discussion
<mdke> ANY OTHER BUSINESS?
<jsgotangco> mdke, you rest i'll wrap this up
<froud> cool, jdub we need to talk
<froud> you want to msg
<mdke> ok MEETING ADJOURNED
<jsgotangco> ok you two kiss and make up
<jdub> froud: i'll call at some stage, i haven't got to everyone yet
<jdub> if you're going to stay in the documentation team, that is
<froud> OK
<froud> dpends on our chat
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdke] : Logs - http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel || UTC time --> "date --utc"
<judax> bye guys was fun, go to ubuntu-doc
<mpt> thanks mdke and jsgotangco and jdub and froud and everybody
<mdke> thanks all
<jsgotangco> ok thanks all, that was great
<froud> jdub: sooner we chat the better
<froud> jdub: we need to understand each other otheriwse we will bump heads
<froud> jdub: I dont want to be in that situation and I dont think you do either
<jdub> i have a thick skull :)
<jsgotangco> oh yeah
<fabbione> morning
<FLeiXiuS> Good evening for I ;-)
<Ubuntu-geek> hello all
<jdodson> sup geek.
<jdodson> wonder if this is everyone for the meeting.
<jdong> ok, UbuntuForum staff role call....
<ubuntu_demon> hi
<ubuntu_demon> I'm a moderator of ubuntuforums (demon666_nl)
<jdong> k
<Ubuntu-geek> hello
<jdodson> hello.
<jdong> Mako...the whole other party...? 
<jdodson> maybe they went to #ubuntu-meeting-that-other-secret-room-HA-suckers
<jdodson> maybe they meant June 17th as in next year 2006.
<jdodson> ?
<jdong> lol
<jdodson> *crickets*
<jdodson> right, i bet the meeting was supposed to be next year.
<jdong> well, we just had a big guy enter :)
<sabdfl> who's in town?
<jdodson> santa claus.
* sabdfl checks calendar
<jdodson> well at least, thats why my grandmother keeps telling me.
<jdong> all of the forum's staff is accounted for
<sabdfl> old fucker is early this year
<jdodson> har, seriously, old people like the june weather, i think he is changing the holiday.
<sabdfl> do we have anyone from the doc team, who was expressing frustration with the reputation system?
<Ubuntu-geek> Gtaylor said he was coming..
<mako> hey
<mako> i'm here
<jdodson> sweet, as i am i.
<sabdfl> ok, while we have the forums team here, let me say i think you guys do a fantastic job
<Ubuntu-geek> hey mako and mark
<sabdfl> hiya mako
<jdong> ok, folks, http://ubuntuforums.org/meeting-agenda.txt is a list of the suggestions our forum team came up with after quite a bit of thought and discussion
<jdodson> i believe the "old fucker" likes our suggestions.:)
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: thnx :)
<sabdfl> jdodson: you and i are getting NO pressies this year, that's for sure
<jdodson> sabdfl: eh, well if he can see me when i am sleeping, no way.
<mako> wait.. we're still missing a few people that really should be here i think
<jdodson> i agree, like squishywaffle
<jdong> correct
<jdong> but I really don't think that dispute is still the concern
<jdong> We at the forums believes that the problem has been resolved. The concern now is how to avoid a similar escalation in the future
<jdong> wow, grammar really ISN't my strong suit today
<sabdfl> reading that, the forums board looks like a place to raise issues on a regular basis, right?
<ubuntu_demon> it's about streamlining policies and politics now right :P
<mako> jdong: yes
<jdong> correct; it's gonna be our version of the Council
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> i think it's a great idea
<jdodson> we have had this idea for sometime, i think its a good time to bring it out to the light at it were.
<jdong> Another concern is appropriate administratrive action for what already happened
<sabdfl> i don't think we need someone from the TB present at all of those meetings
<jdong> a fellow colleague is still pretty upset over the situation
<mako> well, it seems like it would be useful to work out how to prevent pass problems by having both sides of the disagreement here
<sabdfl> the CC is a closer call
<jdodson> mako: i agree.
<jdong> sabdfl: good point. Perhaps trade off depending the nature of the issue at hand?
<sabdfl> i would do it the other way
<sabdfl> if you have a technical issue, put it on the TB Agenda
<sabdfl> and participate in the next TB meeting
<sabdfl> to discuss that item
* mako nods
<sabdfl> they will be happy to have items put on their agenda
<sabdfl> particularly w.r.t. infrastructure issues
<jdong> sabdfl: yeah, that can be done for tech issues. but for regular conflicts that happen on the forums, we'd like our own board to resolve these issues
<sabdfl> (btw, i'm really glad we will have a single-sign-on for wiki and forums soon)
<sabdfl> jdong: agreed
<sabdfl> the Forums Board would handle issues between people
<jdong> there's no reason for half of the locked threads to escalate to the CC agenda
<Ubuntu-geek> jdong: agreed
<jdodson> jdong: right.
<ubuntu_demon> yeah
<sabdfl> i think we should make it clear that if a user is not happy, they can escalate it to the CC
<jdodson> sabdfl: i think that is fair.
<sabdfl> in the same way: add it to the CC agenda, and participate in the CC meeting
<ubuntu_demon> my yeah was a "jdong:yeah" :P
<squinn> [Sorry for walking in, what meeting's this? Seems like uf-mods, I'll get out. <3 the forums by the way, guys] 
<jdong> sabdfl: well, perhaps with a bit of reserve. As I've said before, I don't want every issue to have an appeal at the CC
<jdodson> squinn: we are meeting over whether or not to add microsoft products to ubuntu, goodbye.
<mako> jdong: if you guys can handle it, then it's not an issue anymore
<jdodson> mako: good point.
<jdong> mako: Unless users think we have the authority to handle it, they WON'T rest with our decision
<squinn> ah, okay, i apologize..goodbye
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: good point.. we need to make that known then..
<sabdfl> jdong: if someone is very unhappy with a decision of the Forum Board, they will make a mess and a noise anyway
<mako> .
<jdong> sabdfl: how do you suggest silencing that? I don't want to wear out my mouse clicking the ban/delete buttons.... :(
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: true. But there's still the issue of some users thinking we are dictators
<jdong> In a forum of about 50 posts per minute, even if 0.5% of posts are complaints, that would still overflow the CC agenda. We don't want that to happen, and we don't want to have to sit through a 2-hour meeting to settle a thread and a disgruntled user
<mako> ubuntu_demon: that's why they can appeal to a democratically body (the CC)
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: not much users though
<mako> jdong: i think that if you guys are doing a good job, as i know you are, the number of complaints should be very very small
<jdodson> mako: to my knowledge they are.
<jdodson> mako: small that is.
<ubuntu_demon> mako: how does this CC work ? Is there a wiki about this ?
<jdong> mako: that's not the case. There are certain types of members that if we edit one profanity, they'll appeal to the CC
<mako> lets not wear ourselves out NOW trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist
<sabdfl> so, what i'm suggesting, is let folks go on to the CC if they really want to
<sabdfl> that way they won't feel like you are dictators
<mako> jdong: that's their problem and our problem, not your problem
<jdodson> sabdfl: i think that is fair, personally.
<sabdfl> they will think I am. appropriately ;-)
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> jdong: publish rules and run them by us, then enforce them
<jdong> sabdfl: that's fine, but I personally refuse to be forced into attending a 2-hour meeting at an inconvenient time every week
<jdong> if you guys can handle the CC meeting without forum staff intervention, I'd be pleased
<sabdfl> jdong: if there is a big team of forums admins, then it should be easy to rotate
<mako> jdong: it will make our job *very* easy and the vast majority of people won't complain if they realize they have violatd a published rule
<sabdfl> i guess it just needs one admin at a meeting like that
<jdodson> sabdfl: i dont have a problem attending those meetings, personally.
<sabdfl> so let's talk about the rules
<jdodson> i think we can rotate internally with few problems.
<mako> jdong: there has been at least one admin at every CC meeting in the last few months
<Ubuntu-geek> OK lets do rules..
<sabdfl> when we started this, the Code of Conduct was a new and untested idea
<jdodson> gtaylor: hey.
<sabdfl> i think it's worked reasonably well
<gtaylor> jdodson: Greetings
<sabdfl> hi gtaylor
* gtaylor waves
<mako> gtaylor: greetings
<sabdfl> it might be useful to publish some guidelines and clarifications
<sabdfl> at the moment, it's very much "be excellent to each other"
<ubuntu_demon> hi gtaylor
<jdodson> sabdfl: right.  it seems at the moment the CoC can be interpreted in different ways.
<jdong> sabdfl: strengthening clauses about "being respectful" is very much in need!
<Ubuntu-geek> jdong: agreed
<jdodson> sabdfl: i loved that movie.
<sabdfl> i think we could back that up with some guidelines on, for example, how to disagree without flaming, how to use the CC and TB to resolve real disputes
<sabdfl> how to avoid becoming personal
<mako> sabdfl: right, i want to be careful to not dictate process in the CC
<ubuntu_demon> jdong: true. We have to make the rules more specific
<mako> sabdfl: sorry, CoC
<mako> sabdfl: in terms of conflict resolution and such.. that should be more flexible. we should be able to easily and frequently change that. the coc should be the rules
<sabdfl> mako: sure, the CC escalation suggestion would be in guidelines and suggestions, not in the CoC itself
<jdong> mako: then we need stricter rules for the forums  that you guys woudl be willing to enforce
<sabdfl> sort a CoC FAQ
* mako nods
<mako> jdong: well, you'd be the ones enforcing it
<Ubuntu-geek> ok sec guys..
<mako> jdong: we'd just handle any disputes arrising as a result
<jdong> mako: every time we make an enforcement, they'd come crying to the CC...
<jdodson> mako: rules we all agree to that the forums enforce then.
<sabdfl> reading the meeting-agenda.txt i was struck by the idea that people might publish deliberately misleading or harmful suggestions
<Ubuntu-geek> so we are talking about set rules on the forums and then those will be enforced by the CC?
<jdong> mako: We're very lenient mods... we don't act unless there's something totally out of line... in which case the offender isn't gonna be ready to shut up just because we said so
<sabdfl> that definitely deserves attention in the CoC
<mako> jdong: that has not been our experience so far in other areas.. if there are published reasonable rules, people realize it's not worth their trouble. if the rules say "don't call someone a nazi" and someone calls some a nazi, they're not going to waste their time
<Ubuntu-geek> sabdfl: users on the forums often get out of control, this is the nature of the beast.. :)
<jdong> sabdfl: illegitimate advice doesn't happen too often intentially
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: no, we're talking about rules for the forums that will continue to be enforced by the forum admins and moderators but that group will be accountable to the CC
<squinn> Coming from a user's perspective on the forum, yet being only one whose more of a lurker with only 30 posts yet been around here since Warty, I've not seen many moderator's judgements. Not that they haven't been doing their job, but I rarely see any out-of-control user. 
<jdong> sabdfl: but accidental "chmod 777 this" and "delete this" and "post the content of that" happens quite often
<sabdfl> ok
<jdodson> sabdfl: it has been brought up to our attention about bad advice that is unintentional, i have heard no good advice to this point to curb that yet.
<mako> jdong: all we're suggesting is that you guys be accountable to an indepdendent and more democratic body.. i think that's reasonable and i think we can fin a way to make it work
<jdodson> mako: i agree.
<squinn> mako, agreed as well
<sabdfl> so let's talk about the reputation system
<jdong> mako: I'm fine with that :)
<jdong> ok
<Ubuntu-geek> hold :)
<Ubuntu-geek> hold :)
<mako> wait.. DID we talk about the rules
<mako> or did we just sort of breeze through that point
<Ubuntu-geek> Ok so we have established we are fine with a set of of rules.. Now what should those rules be.
<ubuntu_demon> I agree. a democratic council is a good thing.
<mako> do you guys have published rules now?
<mako> i agree with mark that "obey the CoC" doesn't cut in this case
<jdong> mako: we've been telling guys to follow the CoC... and that's not working. We'll need stricter rules
<Ubuntu-geek> http://ubuntuforums.org/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item
<jdong> mako: we've been slowly ammending rules when we see problems
<mako> jdong: stricter is not how i would describe it. more descriptive perhaps
<jdong> more specific
<gtaylor> agreed, "respect" is being used a lot and is not very well defined in the forum context.
<jdong> which is, in turn, stricter than a loose interpretation of the CoC
<sabdfl> this is the sort of stuff i would like to fold into a set of general guidelines around the CoC
<mako> so, mark was talking about guidesline for following the CoC
<mako> right.. i think this an ideal place to help work on this
<sabdfl> some of that stuff is forums-specific
<mako> i suspect that there may be a number of forums specific guidelines
<sabdfl> like "go easy on the images"
<mako> sabdfl: man.. we're just like thinking on the same wavelength now
<jdodson> avoid all caps posts.
<sabdfl> but some of it would be useful in the general case
<mako> so again, do you guys have published rules beyond "follow the coc"?
<sabdfl> mako: in that case, can i head off and let you channel me? ;-)
<sabdfl> mako: http://ubuntuforums.org/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item
<mako> nice
<sabdfl> mako: privmsg
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: that is what we have at this point.. until the other day things worked..
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: ok.. so it's stopped working so well.. that's fine
<sabdfl> ok guys, i'm headed out, thanks for this and thanks again for your great work on the forums
<mako> there are still going to be disagreements and people will still be hurt.. but we should try to eliminate as much of the amibiguity as we can
<ubuntu_demon> mako: are you registered at the forums? (just curious)
<jdodson> sabdlf: later.
<mako> ubuntu_demon: umm... maybe
<jdong> **queries database for IP lookup
<jdong> j/k
<jdodson> mako: i think he is registered as "windows-xp-forever"
<jdodson> errr that was to jdong.
<ubuntu_demon> sabdlf: bye!
* mako ok, i do now
<mako> i'm "mako"
<jdong> wow.. who would've guessed
<mako> on the forum
<mako> yeah, y'know
<mako> so anyway.. 
<mako> so, i'm going to work on building a coc revision and to try to build some companion guidelines for it
<jdodson> mako: ok.
<mako> i'd appreciate your help on this
<mako> because i think we'll (a) be able to take a lot of your guidlines as general guidelines and (b) i think you'll have your own document with some forum specific stuff
<mako> stuff like colors, images, etc
<mako> y'know better than i do
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: correct.. and one clarification, if we propose a set of descriptive rules on the forums  and an issue is raised to the CC and the rules were clearly violated the CC will follow these rules correct?
<mako> i think that if you have very visible and clear rules, it will make your job easier
<jdong> yeah
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: when rules are clearly violated, you guys should act
<jdodson> mako: i agree.
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: ok thanks for that clarification
<mako> if someone decides to appeal to the CC and they ahve clearly violated the rules, it will be a quick agenda item :)
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: ok thanks :)
<jdodson> mako: good to know.
<gtaylor> To this point we have discussed mainly keeping the users under control. Unfortunately, you can't keep the users under control without publishing clear guidelines for moderators that are publicly posted for all users to see. This should be done to keep balance.
<jdong> mako: do you see "No harassing mods" as a reasonable rule?
<gtaylor> Guidelines for moderator behavior, that is.
<mako> jdong: define harassing
<mako> there is *always* going to be a line between criticsm done in a way that is valid and criticism that breaks the rule and it's not always going to be clear
<jdong> mako: repeatedly bringing up arguments, insisting on objecting AFTER a ruling has been made by forum staff, using other channels to express their disagreements by defaming specific moderators
<mako> we can try to be as specific as possible
<jdong> mako: which is, what happened in the last incident
<mako> calm down dude, we'll get there
<mako> we've already said we'll have a published process on what to do
<mako> it will go something like:
<mako> user does X
<mako> moderators think X violates the rules. takes whatever action was published
<mako> user disagrees, goes the CC
<mako> then probably either:
<mako> CC agrees that X was clearly in violation of the rules, affirms
<mako> or
<mako> CC brings everyone body together to talk it out
<jdong> ok. I'm happy with the procedure
<jdodson> mako: that works.
<jdong> the specifics, I'll decide later whether I'm in line with
<mako> so, i think that avoids the problems you were describing above
<ubuntu_demon> mako: sounds good to me
<jdodson> any other mods ok/not with this?
<jdong> ok, let's move on
<mako> so i think that defaming is always be against the rules
<jdong> undoubtedly
<Ubuntu-geek> ok I am happy with that as well..
<mako> and there needs to be an *extra* burdon on moderators to be fair, transparent, and understanding
<jdong> the way the previous situation was handled should also  be against the rules...
<jdodson> mako: a person or entity?
<mako> jdodson: dude, we'll get there
<mako> jdodson: umm.. well i hope both
<ubuntu_demon> How do people get in the council ? I found this wiki : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/council/view?searchterm=council ... i scan read it .. didn't see anything on how people get elected
<jdong> mako: when were we not fair, transparent, or understanding in the past?
<jdodson> jdodson: ummm.  i thought my question was relavent.
<jdodson> errr 
<jdodson> mako: ummm.  i thought my question was relavent.
<mako> jdodson: that was meant for jdong
<mako> nick completisions :)
<jdodson> as was my post to myself for you.
<jdodson> HA!
<mako> jdong: i'm not implying that. there's no need to be defensive
<jdong> I'm not; I'm just time-rushed. Got a doctor's appointment in 30 min
* mako nods
<jdong> sorry if I sound too agressive
<mako> ok.. let me take a look at your agenda
<mako> so, i should work with someobody or a group of folks about these guildelines
<mako> i think we've accomplished the biggest goal which was to come up with a procedure
<mako> or at least the outline for one
<mako> i'm going to need to work with someone here though to sort of distill it and get it usable
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: agreed..
<mako> well, hands :)
<Ubuntu-geek> anyone from the forums team besides myself what to help on this?
<jdodson> i will help.
<jdong> I will give my input
<Ubuntu-geek> ok great thanks guys..
<bored2k> Ok, i guess.
<ubuntu_demon> I will help in this channel for the following 2 hours if needed
<mako> cool
<mako> so, gtaylor you around?
<jdodson> I have access to a paper shredder.
<froud> mako: you need help
<mako> froud: is that a statement or a question :)
<gtaylor> mako: yes
<jdodson> froud: :)
<froud> ? quest
<froud> offering help
<mako> froud: yeah, i'm sure you'd have good input
<mako> that would be great
<mako> this is a wiki project
<froud> ok
<froud> hello jdodson 
<mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines
<mako> how about there
<jdodson> froud: hello.
<jdodson> mako: sure.
<froud> mako yes I know them ;-)
<froud> mako I came in late so I will need more context from you
<froud> I can work with jdodson 
<jdodson> private chat me your email address and i will email you a IRC log.
<mako> froud: cool.. we'll talk afterwards
<mako> i just created that page
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: lets address the rep system before we do rules.
<mako> SO ANYWAY
<mako> i was going to suggest that
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: umm.. ok.. 
<mako> lets be careful here.. i DO NOT want to have this argument again right now
<mako> i'd like to know what you guys think needs to be addressed here?
<gtaylor> Actually, I think the forum-docteam tensions that Ubuntu-geek pointed out in our IRC room need to be addressed.
<mako> as in, what do you think needs to be improved or clarified to keep this from happening again
<mako> sure, but jdong has to leave very soon
<mako> and there aren't really enough docteam people here now
<jdong> I want to use the rep system as an example of what kind of rules need to be in place, if the court pleases :)
<Ubuntu-geek> Ok.. I would like to see the reputation system enabled for everyone, users can then decide to opt out of it if they wish via the user cp. Its a way  for quality control. 
<gtaylor> You may see the counter opinion at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumRepSystem?highlight=%28RepSystem%29
<mako> jdong: that's totally fine.. if you think we can avoid the whole thing again :)
<jdong> sure
<ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, opt-out is a good solution if someone doesn't like it
<froud> +1
<jdong> the actual rep system yes/no issue, I think, is currently irrelevant. I'm more concerned with the way the situation was handled, and how it should be improved in the future
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: we can get to that I also want to address the situation between you and kassetra.
<gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: That would be a good idea
<froud> so long as such a system aims to harness positive energy I think it will be good
<mako> jdong: agreed, absolutely
<mako> i think everybody agrees with that
<Ubuntu-geek> So in favor of the rep system as long as users can opt out..
<Ubuntu-geek> yes
<froud> +1
<gtaylor> I'd still have to say no, I was concerned about the picture this paints for the users.
<jdong> mako: I don't want to spark an argument, but I personally believe the way the situation escalated should be against the "rules" and guidelines
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: i like where jdong is going for the moment, lets do that
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: we can talk about the specifics of the system soon
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: ok i like were he is going as well.
<ubuntu_demon> gtaylor, in what way do you think a rep system is bad if opt-out is possible ?
<jdong> enough about the opt-out
<mako> ubuntu_demon: please, lets try to have one conversation right now
<froud> jdong: lets here gtaylor 
<gtaylor> regarding which of the many topics we have opened now?
<froud> s/here/hear
<jdong> mako, do you have a comment about the conduct of certain members of the community during this situation?
<mako> ok.. so i read the whole thread
<ubuntu_demon> mako, ok
<froud> [21:51]  <ubuntu_demon> gtaylor, in what way do you think a rep system is bad if opt-out is possible ?
<jdodson> mako: the original rep thread on the forums?
<mako> yes
<mako> and i think that gtaylor's ideas were pretty sane
<froud> +1
<mako> and i think that, initally, they were presented pretty level-headedly too
<jdodson> mako: i agree.
<froud> +1
<jdong> mako: what about the conduct of the doc team IRC chat?
<jdong> mako: and the claims of 'moderator oppression' on the Wiki?
<mako> i think that things went downhill from there and i think it was a two ways street
<mako> gtaylor: i think that in the future, you should be careful how you push on issues.. certain terms and ideas were leveled well before i think they were appopriate
<froud> jdong: I think there were problems on both sides
<mako> we should all be careful about when we say the other person is violating the coc
<jdong> froud: would you like to elaborate on the conduct of forum staff?
<froud> but I would like to not make this a docteam - forums problem
<mako> and, within a couple dozen messages, BOTH sides were doing so
<gtaylor> mako: I'm afraid I can only halfway agree, I haven't released the private messages that caused the issue.
<jdodson> froud: agred.
<gtaylor> mako: Those claims were made based on a private conversation that I kept private ot prevent further problems, I figured this was more of a CC issue rather than something that needed to be quoted publicly.
<froud> jdodson: I think this is an individual - forum thing
<mako> on the other hand, the moderators need to realize that criticism, sometimes harsh criticism, comes with the territory
<mako> gtaylor: if it's based off private message, it needs to stay in private messages
<jdodson> mako: agreed.  we are flamebait at times.
<froud> jdodson: the docteam should / cannot be held accountable for its member actions on the forum
<jdong> mako: Correct. But when harsh criticism escalates to singling out individual staff members?
<jdodson> froud: fair enough.
<mako> gtaylor: you can't go about making accusations that nobody can confirm or deny
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: understood but gtaylor was out of line on the way this was handled i believe even you acknowlegded this.
<mako> jdong: it is *going* to happen
<gtaylor> mako: The CC can confirm/deny it quite easily as what was going to be done before the issues was dropped.
<mako> jdong: i have been personally accused of violating the coc and of being oppressive several times
<mako> jdong: i've been called a racist, for gods sake
<froud> Ubuntu-geek: I think we are looking for a scape goat
<jdong> mako: and what should be done about it? Nothing? We're doormats? I sympathesize with you, but I think something needs to be addressed here
<froud> Ubuntu-geek: is this the best way forward
<jdong> mako: Typically when it escalates to this point, individuals are asked to leave the forums
<mako> jdong: part of being a leader is taking more flac than others
<jdodson> jdong: People should be civil, however at times, the only person you can control, is yourself.
<jdong> jdodson: Then it turns into a doormat situation
<ubuntu_demon> mako: I agree
<mako> you guys can't ignore the power situation
<mako> you have power the rest of your users don't
<mako> you also have visibility
<jdong> mako: Part of being a leader is to make sure that your colleagues don't get hurt personally during the system
<jdodson> jdong: no.  it turns into a public leadership situation. is the president of the usa a doormat because he gets called names all the time?
<ubuntu_demon> mako: I agree on the part "being a leader..."
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: true..
<jdong> jdodson: If I said that I want to kill the president, I'd be in jail
<mako> jdong: you *will* get criticized and sometimes it will hurt
<Ubuntu-geek> ok guys.. lets keep on track.. :)
<jdodson> jdong: apples to oranges, no one said anything about killing anyone.
<jdong> jdodson: If gtaylor said he wants to revoke Kass's privs, he's not having any punishment
<jdodson> jdong: people can say anything they want, doesnt mean it is going to happen.
<gtaylor> Who said anything about revoking Kass' privs?
<jdodson> jdong: personally i want the presidents privs taken, is that going to happen, nope.
<jdodson> :)
<jdong> gtaylor: Doc team had a field day researching how to appeal to the CC about membership, etc
<gtaylor> jdong: And what is wrong with this? Did the forum staff not discuss what was happening for advice?
<jdong> gtaylor: #ubuntu-doc had a discussion that hinted they were going to try to take away Kass's membership
<froud> jdong: pls this is not a docteam thing
<jdong> froud: it happened in #ubuntu-doc. That's why I think it's a docteam thing
<ubuntu_demon> We need to communicate to the users in a clear way ... they can go to the council in case of a dispute (and should only do so whenever they think rules are being broken)
<gtaylor> jdong: I had people who agreed with me, but yes it just happened in #ubuntu-doc, it was NOT a docteam issue.
<froud> jdong: no you come to the chanlle
<mako> jdong: nobody has filed any sort of CC motion to remove Kass's privs
<mako> jdong: people have suggested i get botted off the CC
<froud> jdong: it was a place to discuss
<froud> seems it did not work
<mako> when you're in a leadership situation, this is the type of strong criticism you will sometimes get
<froud> that is not a docteam problem
<mako> froud: i think that's clear
<Ubuntu-geek> froud: ok understood..
<jdodson> froud: ok.
<jdodson> froud: i agree.
<froud> thank you
<mako> nobody is claiming teh docteam is out to get anybody.. just that one relevant converation happened in teh channel
<jdong> ok, let's wrap this up: so Mako, you're basically saying it's in the leader's responsibility to accept harsh criticism at times?
<jdong> I can agree with that
<mako> jdong: yes
<jdodson> jdong: like i said, people can try to do whatever they want, doesnt mean it will happen.
<mako> absolutely
<mako> and sometimes it will be bruising
<mako> i have one more piece of advice i think :)
<jdodson> mako: listens.
<jdodson> * *
<mako> when you are pissed off or hurt, it's *really* hard to make a level headed decision
<jdong> mako: I can take personal hits. But when the situation's ready to escalate into a forum riot, something needs to be done
<mako> it's easier to say "let stuff roll off your back" than to actually not get upset
<bored2k> jdong: agreed.
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: true..
<jdodson> jdong: i really don't think most of our users knew what was going on.
<Ubuntu-geek> jdong: agreed
<mako> jdong: i think that's probably a bit of an exaggeration
<jdodson> jdong: i bet 95% of people had no idea.
<jdong> mako: No, it really isn't. In past experience, this is how mass disagreement arises
<mako> i have some experience as well
<mako> and i think that listening to people and having the problem dealt with transparently and openning can have things work out
<froud> jdong: ppl skills are hard
<mako> when something similar happens
<jdong> mako: When a user posts an outcry in a well-visited forum that moderators are abusing their power... That can cause massive public unrest
<mako> and i say WHEN, not if
<ubuntu_demon> mako: transparancy is good
<mako> jdong: that's part of being a leader
<jdong> mako: I want to settle these issues PRIVATELY with the complainer
<mako> jdong: it's going to happen publicly sometimes
<mako> that's life.. i'm trying to help you find out ways to make it work
<gtaylor> jdong: I can address this issue in detail when the time in this meeting comes, it isn't fair to keep referring to my claim without hearing all sides.
<jdong> mako: Then we'll be the Slashdot forums... :(
<jdong> ok guys, I'll be back in like 30 minutes
<froud> jdong: but equally the mods should look at the statement without personal involvement and question themselves
<jdodson> jdong: visibility will give these issues more creedence.  as in, the right side will be shown.
<ubuntu_demon> jdong: see you in 30 :)
<squinn> jdong, enjoy the Dr.
<jdong> lol
<jdong> have fun with the less heated debates, and I hope I gain that "level head" in the meantime
<jdong> :)
<froud> jdong:  no needles
<Seveas> Hmm, was this meeting scheduled/announced..?
<bored2k> Seveas: yes. 19:00
<Seveas> ah, too short notice :)
<Ubuntu-geek> seveas: sorry :)
<Seveas> ah well, I'm not a forum guy anyway...
<Ubuntu-geek> ok lets move forward then.
<jdodson> Seveas: neither am i, i am there for the doughnuts.
<Seveas> Just wanted to give you some thumbs up for the great work you're doing. I hope all problems are/will be settled
<Ubuntu-geek> seveas: I am sure they will.... Thanks we try..
<ubuntu_demon> Seveas, I'm sure they will :)
<froud> Ubuntu-geek: without offending anyone, I must say that I did find ppl not listening, or reading, and skimming was a problem. I dont get involved in the forums, but as an outsider this was my impression.
<Ubuntu-geek> froud: more details if you would..
<mako> i'm not entirely sure what to do right now.. since jdong just left
<froud> Ubuntu-geek: at the same time i canot condone degrogitory language
<jdodson> froud: skimming is a valuble thing to be able to do.
<jdodson> froud: got me though university.
<jdodson> mako: continue with the discussion.
<jdodson> mako: he is a visibile mod, there are many others here who can speak.
<jdodson> errr type rather.
<mako> right, but he's the only one who has really disagreed with any of my suggestions :)
<jdodson> mako: HA!
<jdodson> mako: i can do that....:)
<kassetra> or at least disagreed out in the open.
<mako> disagreeing quietly in irc doesn't count for me
<jdodson> right, so is anyone not ok with what we have talked about? 
<Ubuntu-geek> kassetra?
<mako> i've repeatedly asked for feedback
<kassetra> mako: I will be providing you with a detailed list of my feedback.
<mako> i don't have a monopoly on good ideas
<mako> kassetra: this meeting would probably be the right place to do it
<kassetra> mako: No, not in this case.  
<kassetra> mako: I prefer writing this out completely instead of hacking at it piecemeal.
<froud> mako: your sugestions are sound
<mako> kassetra: it's a little unfair to have a meeting and get everyone together and then criticism until after the fact when we all have to go back to the drawing board together
<mako> kassetra: i value the input you've given in the past.. if you disagree with anything, i'd like to know
<philipacamaniac> kassetra, perhaps you can write up your feedback and post a link to it before the meeting is over
<froud> jdodson: I am with you
<Ubuntu-geek> forums team are you ok with the details mentioned before? We will create a set of rules for the forums, if a user violates the rules we act. If the situation is taken with the CC and the user is in violation forum rules superceed and we move on?.. 
<ubuntu_demon> philipacamaniac, good suggestion
<jdodson> i am ok with details mentioned before.
<Ubuntu-geek> me to
<kassetra> philipcam: they are not ready yet.
<jdodson> froud: with me on what?
<froud> jdodson: your ideas
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: you ok with that still?
<ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, I agree
<kassetra> mako: I disagree strongly with many points here, but I do not like not having all of my facts completely 100% perfect before disputing.
<froud> I think makos if then else mthod works
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: yeah, absolutely
<ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, I agree with the details mentioned before I mean :)
<mako> kassetra: that's fine.. nobody here has their facts/arguments 100% perfect
<froud> kassetra: we dont expect perfection
<mako> it's the nature of realtime discussion
<mako> froud: except from you sean :)
<kassetra> mako: that may be the case, but I deal in facts as a researcher, and that is how I present all discussions.
* froud passed the joint to mako
<ubuntu_demon> I have to agree with mako on this one. Please kassetra join in or provide an url or something
<froud> kassetra: you are like totally empowered to say whatever you lik ehere
<kassetra> ubuntu_demon: simply because I am not choosing to jump in blindly does not mean I am NOT joining in.
<jdodson> froud: hey, i want some...:) 
<froud> :-)
<philipacamaniac> gentlemen, if she's not comfortable revealing her objections yet, the issue should not be pressed further
<jdodson> kassetra: i dont think anyone is jumping in blindly here.
<froud> kassetra: ok fair enough you hav eth eright
<Ubuntu-geek> ubuntu_demon: agreed.. lets move on to the next item. which is, user opt out rep system.. (yes) or leave it disabled (no) I want to nix this off the list. 
<mako> for the record (again) i'm not interested in talking about the rep situation again
<jdodson> philipacamaniac: right.
<mako> what happened etc.
<froud> +1 for opt out
<Ubuntu-geek> +1 for opt out
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: that may be best at this point
<jdodson> +50 for opt out
* mako doesn't have strong feelings either way
* froud takes the j awy from jdodson 
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: vote vote.. 
<Ubuntu-geek> lol
<ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, agreed let's move on. 
<ubuntu_demon> I vote for opt out
<Ubuntu-geek> ok so calling once.. 
<froud> make never has feelings
<Ubuntu-geek> calling it twice..
<gtaylor> How can we make a ruling and still be democratic if only the staff are here to vote (along with a few docteam members).
<philipacamaniac> I'm not staff... +1 opt out
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: its the meeting snooze you loose..
<jdodson> gtaylor: members are allowed to vote, if anyone else is here they can.
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: i don't have strong feelings either way
<froud> gtaylor: its the way FOSS works
<mako> i dn't actually really care :)
<gtaylor> Why not put a poll up with both sides on a visible board and see what happens?
<mako> i think any of the proposals are fixed
<jdodson> mako: funny.  i don't either, i just want everyone to stop dissing each other.
<Ubuntu-geek> ok the system will be enabled and users can choose to opt out if they wish.. an announcement will be sent to each user within the next few days telling them how they can do so.
* mako nods at jdodson 
<jdodson> gtaylor: polls can be stuffed easily enough.
<Ubuntu-geek> fair enough?
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: fair enough
<froud> gtaylor: it gives users the choice
<Ubuntu-geek> i believe that can satisfy both sides here.
<jdodson> U-G: perhaps we should mention that to the users in someway, to opt out.
<mako> gtaylor: you happy?
<Ubuntu-geek> jdodson: (16:28:38) Ubuntu-geek: ok the system will be enabled and users can choose to opt out if they wish.. an announcement will be sent to each user within the next few days telling them how they can do so.
<Ubuntu-geek> :)
<jdodson> Ubuntu-geek: I dig.
<gtaylor> mako: I would be happy if negative rep was disabled and rep was in effect for everyone. I'm worried about the labeling that may be associated with people having a "black sheep" title because they drop below 0 rep due to a discussion in Community Chat or whatnot.
<philipacamaniac> And it should be clearly visible when they register as a new user
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: then they can disable it
<jdodson> philipacamaniac: well if they dont notice it, why would it matter?  if they then noticed, then they could "opt-out."
<froud> gtaylor: but at the same time a person like me would opt out just because I dont want a rep
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: its as simple as 123..
<mako> gtaylor: well, in that case, you can opt-out
<mako> gtaylor: this is functionally equivalent
<jdodson> should the forum default be rep off?
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: agreed
<gtaylor> jdodson: I was about to say...
<Seveas> jdodson, that would be opt-in and not opt-out :)
<Ubuntu-geek> jdodson: no
<froud> gtaylor: I think you will find that those who opt out are actually th eguru's ;-)
<jdodson> for the record, i am not sure on that on.
<mako> i'm not sure it really matters
<jdodson> SEveas: HA!
<mako> you've built in the chose
<ubuntu_demon> jdodson, no .. opt-out is fine IMO
<jdodson> mako: ok, just wondering.... i am slow, remember that.:)
<philipacamaniac> perhaps there is a way to disable rep in the community chat?
<gtaylor> So I'm wondering, what do the staff hope to achieve by this rep system? This isn't a heated question, i really want to know.
<jdodson> philipacamaniac: yes, to opt-out.
<gtaylor> If people can opt out and a percentage can't even see what others have been rated as
<froud> jdodson: it should be on unless the user switches off and at any time a user can do so
<jdodson> gtaylor: honestly, i dont put stock into it at all, either way, i dont care it is around.
<gtaylor> You effectively only have people with positive rep and the whole purpose of negative rep is null.
<philipacamaniac> jdodson: agreed
<jdodson> froud: right, i was trying to say that.
<gtaylor> Why not only allow positive rep (so you reinforce good behavior) and let everyone partake?
<froud> +1
<gtaylor> We're not here to discourage people from trying to help, giving positive feedback to those that attempt to seems nuturing and encouraging for the community.
<froud> gtaylor: it must be a poistive energy thing
<jdodson> gtaylor: it seems to me that only positive feedback is overtly simplistic.  i mean disagreements are in the CoC.
<gtaylor> How so? If you neg rep me I'll just opt out, defeating the purpose of the system.
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: like i mentioned it will be opt out.. users will be clearly giving information on how todo this when they register on the forums and current users will as well
<gtaylor> Your rating therefore becomes moot.
<jdodson> gtaylor: thats fine.
<gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: Discuss things with us here a minute.
<Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, will users have the possibility to switch it on and off all the time? And do ratings get lost when opting-out?
<gtaylor> ubuntu-geek: Keep it democratic like you guys wanted to earlier. Tell me what you disagree with in my suggestion.
<jdodson> gtaylor: personally my rating is worthless(to me that is).
<Ubuntu-geek> seveas: yes its enable/disable in their control panel
<gtaylor> jdodson: I realize that, and allowing people to opt out of negativity makes it more worthless.
<froud> gtaylor: I think its a positive thing
<Ubuntu-geek> froud: agreed
<froud> gtaylor: not really
<gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: What is your goal in allowing opt outs if the people you wish to regulate just opt out?
<jdodson> gtaylor: but others find it useful, just cause i dont care, doesnt meant we should not care, if it is the will of this body.
<froud> gtaylor: see it as a safety valve
<mako> gtaylor: it's functionally equivalent to a postive-only system in most cases
<jdodson> is gtaylor the only person who wants the non-negative rep only?
<gtaylor> but less useful since many people who will opt out could have earned a lot of positive points
<jdodson> for the record that is.
<mako> gtaylor: i can see why you think it is not the most efficient solution if that is the end it goes toward but i see the two solutions and equivalent in practice
<jdodson> mako: agreed.
* Seveas favors a non-neg-rep system too
<mako> i think they're the same thing :)
<jdodson> Seveas: thanks.
<gtaylor> I still haven't heard any discussion from ubuntu-geek here...
<jdodson> so thats 2 then?
<froud> gtaylor: I think you will find the power is in the community
<jdodson> gtaylor: i thought he has been saying much, or at least my logs say so:)
<Ubuntu-geek> Ok here are the options we have.
<Ubuntu-geek> please guys for a sec let me tell you 
<Ubuntu-geek> 1. We can allow a opt in/out rep system.
<Ubuntu-geek> 2. We allow only positive rep system without opt in/out (this defeats the purpose)
<Ubuntu-geek> 3. We disable it. (not an option)
<Ubuntu-geek> the forum software isn't to flexable in this area
<jdodson> if 3 is not an option, it should not be presented, no offense, just a technical thing.
<ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, I choose 1 with opt-out
<jdodson> +1 opt-out
<gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: How is positive only defeating the purpose when #1 is too?
<bored2k> I choose 1.
<mako> why does 2 defeat the purpose?
<mako> i don't understand
<gtaylor> exactly, answer the question so we can discuss this fairly.
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: whoa.. relax
<philipacamaniac> this may be beyond the forum capability, but what about Slashdot-style metamoderation?
<froud> Ubuntu-geek: question?
<Ubuntu-geek> typing a sec
<Ubuntu-geek> hold
<froud> what if ppl give rep + what if not giving rep is equiv to neg rep?
<froud> I think this is what gtaylor is saying
<froud> as user I have two opts
<Ubuntu-geek> froud: ok I can see it on that level
<froud> 1. I can rep this is me saying great guy
<froud> 2. I can abstain this is me saying bad gyuy
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: this is the karma system
<froud> but It does not hurt th eguy
<gtaylor> That's what I mean, no feelings get hurt
<mako> sort of
<gtaylor> Nobody has to spam threads asking how to opt out to avoid negative comments, etc.
* froud is shocked that mako knows about karma
<mako> froud: i know all about karma :)
<Ubuntu-geek> Ok i can respect that.. guys..
<froud> Ubuntu-geek: you can see it at this level, do you think it could work
<froud> snap
<Ubuntu-geek> froud: yes..
<froud> cool then can we +1 for #2
<froud> or did I get it wrong
<Ubuntu-geek> We will have a positive system without opt/in/out
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: yeah
<froud> +1
<Ubuntu-geek> in favor?
<Ubuntu-geek> +1
* mako will abstain from all
<gtaylor> +1
<jdodson> -1 dont think it matters.
<gtaylor> But maybe we should rename it to "appreciation" or something :)
<jdodson> opt-out is fine.
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: i'll see what i can do
<mako> gtaylor: the semantics don't matter
<gtaylor> yeah, that's a nitpicky point
<Ubuntu-geek> ok so everyone is happy?
<froud> anyone disagree
<jdodson> i think we should opt-out, either way, i will be ok with.
<gtaylor> Happy here
<ubuntu_demon> I'm ok
<froud> cool
<mako> jdodson: you may be outvoted. but i agree that it doesn't mater :)
<froud> you guys rock!
<jdodson> mako: :) whatever, i think we should all vote on to stop dissing each other.
<ubuntu_demon> I agree that it doesn't matter much :)
<jdodson> +1 no more dissing.
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: 1 or 2 is good for me.. but majority is fine..
<Ubuntu-geek> +1
<Ubuntu-geek> ok so next..
<ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, yeah
<Ubuntu-geek> The forums team and myself can hammer out forum rules and run these past mako.. Possibly schedule a meeting to discuss them next week?
<Ubuntu-geek> in favor?
<Ubuntu-geek> +1
<jdodson> +1
<froud> +1
<ubuntu_demon> +1
<gtaylor> +1, just make sure to publicly announce the date/time of the meeting as you did with this one.
<Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: no problem 
<Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, just put them on the CC agenda
<Ubuntu-geek> CC meeting is tuesday right?
<Seveas> see /topic
<Ubuntu-geek> lol oh yeah :)
<Seveas> tue 21 12:00 UTC
<Ubuntu-geek> that'll be fine we'll discuss there then
<Seveas> ah and +1 
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: cool with you?
<ubuntu_demon> I will be there tuesday
<ubuntu_demon> anymore left to discuss at this moment ?
<jdong> k, I'm back
* froud gives everybody a big hug and sloppy wet kiss
<Ubuntu-geek> jdong: wb
<jdodson> jdong: sweet, we solved everyrthing
<ubuntu_demon> jdodson, hi :)
<ubuntu_demon> jdong, hi :-P
<jdodson> jdong: j/k
* Seveas thinks froud needs some neg-rep :)
* froud passes the j to jdong 
<jdodson> Seveas: I am going to opt out of that:)
* ubuntu_demon hugs everybody 
<froud> Seveas: I alrwady have that
<Ubuntu-geek> thanks everyone for hammering this out..
<froud> np
<froud> trust the community
<Ubuntu-geek> Now! One last request for the parties involved.. lets say sorry and move on to new stuff.. :)
<jdodson> froud: community is why i am here.
<mako> Ubuntu-geek: uh, yes :)
<froud> jdodson: rock
<Ubuntu-geek> Gtaylor: I apologize for not understanding your points..
<jdodson> jdodson: and roll.
* mako apologizes for not having a forum account until today
<gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: No problem, no hard feelings, and I will try to express my points without causing this much trouble in the future.
<jdodson> mako: *ha* its ok.
<jdodson> gtaylor: sweet.
<Ubuntu-geek> next time please feel free to email me direct.. ryan@emailblue.com
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: yeah get on the train here dude..
<ubuntu_demon> mako, I'm looking forward to meeting you on the forums
<mako> and next time.. take it to the CC instead of into the forums
<mako> because things will just escalate
<mako> and they did
<jdong> correct
<mako> and people will say  lto of things they will need to apologize for at the end of a very long meeting
<Ubuntu-geek> mako: lol :)
<jdong> yeah
<Ubuntu-geek> i am i th eonly one to said i was sorry
<Ubuntu-geek> geesh i thought others would follow suit..
<Ubuntu-geek> ;)
<gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: sorry :0
<jdodson> kassetra: your list near completion?
<kassetra> jdodson: no, as I said before.
<gtaylor> I didn't spell it out but I'm sorry for those I offended, not just ubuntu-geek.
<jdodson> kassetra: thats cool, just wondering.  no offense intended.
<Ubuntu-geek> thanks everyone.. thanks mako for being here..
<froud> c ya
<jdodson> i personally want to thank myself.
<gtaylor> And it is nice that we were able to discuss this and ease the frustrations of everyone.
<gtaylor> A victory for Ubuntu
<froud> and mako
<jdodson> gtaylor: rock on ubuntu.
<froud> a big hand to you dude
<froud> your gonna get old before your time if you keep this up
<gtaylor> yes, mako, a neutral third party with a level head always helps :)
<jdong> yeah
<gtaylor> And it's good to see the leaders of Ubuntu take an interest in community matters
<gtaylor> When you could be doing other things
<gtaylor> (like eating)
<jdodson> HA!
<jdodson> speaking of.
<Ubuntu-geek> or working :)
<jdong> along that lines, I hope to see more Ubuntu folks at the forums :)
<gtaylor> or that
<ubuntu_demon> gtaylor, agreed
* froud sends everyone back to work
<Ubuntu-geek> see ya guys
<froud> go on scat now!
<froud> shoo, shoo
<Ubuntu-geek> my email address was posted any feel free to email me direct with forum issues
<squinn> Ubuntu-geek, keep up the good work.
<ubuntu_demon> everybody keep up the good work :)
<Ubuntu-geek> agreed..
<squinn> true
<ubuntu_demon> So see you guys on tuesday ... bye!
<squinn> What's tuesday, ubuntu_demon ?
<mako> squinn: CC meeting
<squinn> Oh, CC Meeting
<squinn> right.
<ubuntu_demon> :)
<squinn> I was thinking that.
<ubuntu_demon> bye!
<squinn> Bye.
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-25
<nalioth> just reading the news
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Logs - http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Tue 21 June 12:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 28 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel || UTC time --> `date --utc`
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-19
<raphink> @schedule Paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<Hawkwind> @schedule Houston
<Hawkwind> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 20 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 16:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<Sp4rKy> hi
<jenda> aloha, Sp4rKy 
<Sp4rKy> please when does a date for new Members should be published ?
<jenda> Sp4rKy: nobody knows...
<Sp4rKy> jenda, k thx
<jjesse> imbrandon and matthais klose both have nice microphones that i can hear over the internet
<Hobbsee> mornfall's is quite good as well
<fabbione> is anybody actually speaking around the table?
<imbrandon> jjesse, i'm not in paris though ;(
<jjesse> ah
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: run quickly!
<imbrandon> i think someone should atleaste put a mic in the middle
<imbrandon> hehehe
<jjesse> agreed
<imbrandon> Hobbsee, hop on i'll piggy back you with me
* imbrandon runs *
<Hobbsee> heh
<imbrandon> it would be pointless to be in paris at the same table and talk totaly on irc ;)
<shenki> pointless, but funny :)
<Hobbsee> :P
<fabbione> we can't hear ANYTHING
<fabbione> it's just noise or almost
<Hobbsee> fabbione: we can type :P
<fabbione> Hobbsee: pointless if you can't hear
<imbrandon> Hobbsee, but we need to hear to type anything worth saying
<Hobbsee> oh, i was more meaning we can hear you, adn we can type
<sfllaw> I guess the only thing that we can do is...
<sfllaw> Use Gobby and sign in to gobby.uds.ubuntu.com:9001
<sfllaw> There's a chat program there and you can see the spec being typed up.
<imbrandon> well the last meeting sabdfl kinda repeated the major points over voip
<jsgotangco> it is very faint even though i am just across the group
<Seveas> sfllaw, not much going on at 9001
<sfllaw> Seveas: That's because we're talking in real-life and interrupting each other.
<sfllaw> But we'll be typing things up.
<Seveas> ah, bug in gobby
<Seveas> it connects me to 9007
<Seveas> even though I change to 9001
<fabbione> same here
<fabbione> ok i am off this session
<ajmitch> yes, it works if you change with the spinner, not with the text field
<imbrandon> sfllaw, can you also speak the major things in VoIP
<fabbione> is mdz there at the table?
<doko> fabbione: yes
<fabbione> doko: why isn't he on TeamSpeak?
<doko> fabbione: if I understood it right, configuration problem
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: they cant hear us, remember?
<fabbione> doko: can you please ask him to relay to the meeting my suggestion of the +3 weeks?
<imbrandon> yea but some of them can
<Hobbsee> true
<fabbione> doko: with this shit there is no way to partecipate
<jjesse> whoever was last speaking came acrross nice an clean
<imbrandon> jamesToup Can for one etc
<Hobbsee> it's sounding pretty good - mic down +1 
<fabbione> bah
<fabbione> they are already half way in the meeting
<jjesse> what was the gobby session?
<fabbione> 9001
<ajmitch> I can hear kamion fairly well when the mic is on
<jjesse> hmm getting a protocol error mismatch
<ajmitch> only because of the headphones, it's no good with speakers
<mdz> fabbione: what?
<imbrandon> [09:26]  <Hobbsee> imbrandon: they cant hear us, remember?
<imbrandon> [09:26]  <fabbione> doko: can you please ask him to relay to the meeting my suggestion of the +3 weeks?
<imbrandon> [09:26]  <imbrandon> yea but some of them can
<fabbione> mdz: can you please relay my suggestion (like we did talk in london) to add +3 weeks?
<fabbione> TeamSpeak doesn't work
<fabbione> and we can't hear a thing here
<imbrandon> cept each other
<fabbione> so we also have no clue of where the conversation is at the moment
<jjesse> just random talking, i think it works better when people actually talk into a mic and not a central mic
<fabbione> doko: thanks dude
<imbrandon> even if just one person relays the major points ( like sabdfl did for the last session )
<jenda> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 19 2006, 14:30:49 - Next meeting: Technical Board  in 1 day
<mdz> fabbione: that suggestion was vetoed by sabdfl months ago, sorry
<fabbione> mdz: he said to re-proposite it again at the meeting
<fabbione> re-propose
<mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseSchedule has been saved with the current working stuff
<mdz> fabbione: said to whom and when?
<fabbione> mdz: to me in London when we were all out
<fabbione> sfllaw: wasn't the page supposed to be edited in gobby?
<jjesse> it is in gobby rightn ow
<fabbione> mdz: i suggest to postpone Beta freeze one or two weeks later...
<fabbione> mdz: given the nature of edgy i see no point in one and a half month of freeze
<imbrandon> exactly
<jjesse> hmm this team speak kinda sucks :(
<imbrandon> with such a short release cycle why such a long freeze
<imbrandon> jjesse, yea thee way they was doing it before was MUCH better
<imbrandon> stleaste we had a relay then
<jjesse> agreed
<jsgotangco> heh
<Kamion> it's worth putting it kinda close to the GNOME release, but yeah, maybe
<jsgotangco> well its not popular in here either
<Kamion> we've always done beta right after GNOME release
<ajmitch> Kamion: is there a speculative UVF date?
<jjesse> i was really interested in this discussion, not as interested in the last meeting
<imbrandon> ajmitch, September 7th
<Kamion> ajmitch: early discussions have been to just match it to FF
<ajmitch> right
<Kamion> this being a crack release
<ajmitch> that sounds fair
<fabbione> Kamion: is sab there around?
<Kamion> ajmitch: but see the gobby, there's a "merge complete" which will get filled in
<Kamion> fabbione: no
<fabbione> bah
<fabbione> Kamion: thanks
<Kamion> I think he's embroiled in tabs
<fabbione> yeah but he said that he was going to reevaluate the option to add 3 weeks to this release
<fabbione> and if he is not around nobody is going to even try to talk to him about it
<ajmitch> Kamion: I also care because of universe - we couldn't possibly get merges done in 2 weeks, but a late UVF suits us
<Kamion> fabbione: we've been discussing it here
<fabbione> Kamion: ok, but we can't hear a thing :)
<Kamion> the prevailing opinion seems to be that we should just suck up the short release
<fabbione> based on what rationale?
<Kamion> (to relay jdub) partly as an external statement that we can do it (repairs time-based-release reputation from the dapper delay), and partly as an internal statement that we need to not delay releases too often
<Kamion> which personally, I have to say I agree with
<fabbione> with a +3 weeks we are still below the 6 months release
<jjesse> i think it would be nice to get back on track and not delay again
<fabbione> it's not a delay
<Kamion> it is, with respect to breezy
<fabbione> and it will still match the commit of the within 6 monhts
<imbrandon> i agree with that but such a long uvf on edgy .......
<fabbione> Kamion: right now we are at 4 monhts?
<Kamion> we've said in public that we will release edgy in October
<fabbione> 4 months + 3 week < 6 monhts
<Kamion> if we slip from that, we're going to lose confidence
<Kamion> 4.5 months, and dapper was 6 months + 6 weeks = 7.5 months
<Kamion> the constraint is not 6 months from dapper, it's 12 months from breezy
<imbrandon> fabbione, they are looking at it more as 1 year from breezy not 6 months from dapper
<fabbione> i don't think this is even sane
<Kamion> now it's your turn for rationale
<fabbione> of course
<fabbione> we committed to a 6 months release cycle
<fabbione> we are 6 weeks delay
<fabbione> split them in 2
<fabbione> +3 for edgy
<fabbione> and +3 edgy+1
<fabbione> we go back in sync
<fabbione> and we do 2 releases in less than 6 months
<fabbione> and we don't die with one in 4.5
<fabbione> we are still committing to support edgy for 18 months
<Kamion> yeah, I don't think we'll die though
<fabbione> if it is too much crack it will be very difficul
<fabbione> and we will lose users and confidence for real
<Kamion> the answer is just to pick not quite such an insane number of goals, and to accept more slippage on goals
<Kamion> really fascist on feature freeze
<Kamion> for dapper, there was stuff we HAD to do
<Kamion> (sabdfl-mandated)
<Kamion> that is not the case for edgy
<imbrandon> that and edgy will be buggy by nature
<imbrandon> already
<imbrandon> weather 4 or 6 months
<fabbione> yeah it's exactly the same sab that suggested to re-discuss the 3 weeks thingy.. anyway  i can hear a lot of people having fun there. 
<fabbione> so probably not even worth to discuss it anylonger
<Kamion> (from jdub again) when gnome 2.6 was delayed, they just sucked up the damage, and 2.8 went right back on schedule
<fabbione> gnome != ubuntu
<imbrandon> better to dammage one release than 3
<jjesse> agreed imbrandon
<fabbione> imbrandon: we are still committed to 18 months support for it
<Kamion> sabdfl re-discuss> that's what he does when you pressure him about something he knows other people would be more involved with than he is - he tells you to discuss with them
<imbrandon> fabbione, and we can do that , their will probbly just be more backports that way
<imbrandon> its not LTS
<fabbione> ok we are going no where and i am not there to grab the sab
<imbrandon> its just 18 months
<fabbione> imbrandon: 18 months are much more than you think.. specially because you don't need to support it
<jsgotangco> that is like eternity for the security team
<imbrandon> my point is if we short our self now and suck up the support for 18 months or do we short 3 releases and suck up the supoport 18x3 months
<ajmitch> imbrandon: can you imagine supporting the current Xgl crack for 18 months?
<imbrandon> ajmitch, backports
<ajmitch> backports is not the answer to everything
<imbrandon> witha  4.5 month release backports will be a must
<ajmitch> you can't simply backport core parts of the distro
<Riddell> imbrandon: why?  shorter release means less backports
<fabbione> imbrandon: backports are not a solution.
<imbrandon> not everything but what about when we're short on 2 to 3 releases and we have not just one 18 months of hell we have 18x3
<fabbione> imbrandon: backports are overhead of work to maint an old distro in a sane way taking away resources from the one you are actually developing
<ajmitch> Kamion: why did UVF jump back to mid-july on the current wiki page?
<Kamion> not sure
<fabbione> ajmitch: because they are editing in 2 different places? :)
<Riddell> ajmitch: no advantage having it later, you can still bring in new upstreams as needed just not all of them
<ajmitch> heh
<Kamion> it's not remotely final
<ajmitch> I know, it just scares me that it'd be so soon :)
<Kamion> there's discussion that if we get the merge out of the way early then we won't be sitting on the merge treadmill and have no time for features we care about
<Kamion> which may turn out to save time
<ajmitch> I'd love to have a later UVF for universe
<ajmitch> we tend to only hear about 'foo is broken & out of date' quite late
<jsgotangco> heh
<ajmitch> we can afford to be more relaxed with universe freezes though
<shenki> what's the hostname/port for the gobby channel of this discussion?
<ajmitch> gobby.uds.ubuntu.com, port 9001
<jjesse> gobby.uds.ubuntu.com:90001
<jjesse> 9001
<shenki> thanks
<Kamion> ajmitch: as usual I expect that universe UVF can be pushed out
<Kamion> to FF or so
<ajmitch> that would be good, thanks
<Kamion> or heck beta if you like
* ajmitch can just make out your voice :)
<Kamion> as far as we (round table) are concerned that's up to MOTU leaders
<Hobbsee> +1, thinking of kde 3.5.4
<Hobbsee> no, wait, igonre that
<Kamion> although I do think you should define *some* point where you stop
<Hobbsee> Kamion: before release?  :P
<ajmitch> it worked fairly well for dapper, having freeze exceptions approved by a motu team
<Kamion> ajmitch: yes
<ajmitch> I'll ask dholbach what he thinks of it
<imbrandon> universe freeze oct 17 ;) lol j/k
<Kamion> Hobbsee: some distance before, yes ;-)
<Hobbsee> hehe
<fabbione> everything went silent
<fabbione> oh well
<ajmitch> I think for hoary we had an effective UVF of whenever the buildds stopped :)
<imbrandon> fabbione, they said "thanks for listning in" ... click
<Hobbsee> hehe
<fabbione> can we sing now?
<fabbione> LA LA LA LA
<imbrandon> lol
<Seveas> 
<Hobbsee> actually, that probably worked comparably to the last session, with sabdfl telling us what was happening
<Hobbsee> fabbione: sure, over the mic :P
<Hobbsee> go on Seveas, you said i had a scary voice, thereofre you must speak :P
<imbrandon> yea Hobbsee we need a person at each one relaying messages
<Seveas> Hobbsee, lol
<fabbione> Hobbsee: why scary?
<jsgotangco> player left
<fabbione> it didn't sound that BAD...
<Hobbsee> haha
<Seveas> fabbione, but compine that with knowing she's chcaholinc and has a power addiction...
<Hobbsee> sure sure.  and you wonder why i dont talk much on there, and why i dont use my real nam much
<Seveas> combine*
<Hobbsee> haha dont you start, i have no ops in here to make you stop :P
<fabbione> chcaholinc <- ????
<Hobbsee> mmm...chocolate...
<fabbione> i have the feeling i so much don't want to knwo
<fabbione> know
<Seveas> fabbione, chocaholic
<fabbione> Seveas: ahhh
<Seveas> (my spelling sucks today, I don't know how I managed to write bugfree-ish code)
<Hobbsee> haha
* Hobbsee makes a mental note to go bug hunting in Seveas's bot again.  
<Seveas> please do
<imbrandon> @t
<imbrandon> ;)
<Seveas> that works only in channels that can handle offtopic 
<imbrandon> heh : This will be a hard, ruthless freeze. Unfinished features WILL be delayed until edgy+1 
<imbrandon> ^^ just noticed
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Hobbsee> which particular freeze was this?
<imbrandon> feature , sept 7th
<Hobbsee> ah yeah
<jenda-lappy> It's been three weeks since the last CC meeting :(
<Seveas> jenda-lappy, and it'll be another week
<Seveas> have you poked community-council@?
<jenda-lappy> Seveas, really?
<jenda-lappy> nope...
<jenda-lappy> didn't think I should bother them.
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-20
<lukketto> When the next meeting to propose me as member?
<bimberi> @now paris
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Paris: June 20 2006, 12:48:51 - Next meeting: Technical Board  in 9 hours 11 minutes
<zul> @now Paris
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Paris: June 20 2006, 14:02:46 - Next meeting: Technical Board  in 7 hours 57 minutes
<burtwil> 2 hours to go
<Lure> @schedule ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:kingmonkey] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
<\sh> anyone already there?
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: Current meeting: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<\sh> guys, I haV
<\sh> guys we hAVE here a flaky internet connection, I don't think so, that I can attend this meeting..
<jsgotangco> oh there's a meeting?
<\sh> TB or is it rescheduled#
<jsgotangco> i dunno i see sabdfl keybuk lifeless and jbailey at the back discussing something
<mjg59> Not rescheduled as far as I know
<mjg59> jsgotangco: If you could poke Scott, that would be great
<jsgotangco> it seems like an important discussion
<\sh> mjg59: ok...as i said, our umts connection is to unstable to do real internet stuff..so I won't attend again...#
<\sh> mjg59: it would be nice if you and the others can discuss my request, and write me an email to shermann@ubuntu.com with the result...or questions..
<mjg59> \sh: Sure
<\sh> thx a lot...
* mjg59 texts scott
<siretart> no tb meeting?
<GNAM> no people interested.
<kingmonkey> worst meeting ever
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-21
<GNAM> auauu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<lukketto> about the council meeting?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<HedgeMage> Am I late?
<jenda> HedgeMage: you missed it all
<HedgeMage> LOL that short?
<jenda> well...
<jenda> * Ubugtu has changed the topic to: Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<jenda> * [Nirvana]  is now known as Nirvana-will-b-b
<jenda> * Nirvana-will-b-b is now known as Nirvana-brb
<jenda> * j_ack (n=nico@p508DA055.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #ubuntu-meeting
<jenda> * HedgeMage (i=HedgeMag@freenode/staff/HedgeMage) has joined #ubuntu-meeting
<jenda> that short.
<HedgeMage> lol
<HedgeMage> hiya Amaranth 
<Amaranth> hi
* jenda apologizes to ubuntulog for the paste
<Amaranth> i think everyone is busy in paris
<HedgeMage> lol
<HedgeMage> yep
* HedgeMage ponders on the usual meeting components
<HedgeMage> Someone to suggest something so rediculous it never makes it to a vote, a vote to make official something everyone already agreed on, and something else to bicker about for the remaining meeting time and table until next week :P
<cbx33> Hey all
<HedgeMage> hi cbx33 :)
<HedgeMage> having fun?
<cbx33> <!----------------------------------meeting notes start here-------------------------------------------->
<cbx33> I'm going to have to pop off unfortunately
<cbx33> I'm not supprised there's no one else here
<cbx33>  it being the summit and all
<HedgeMage> cbx33: it's just you, me, jenda, and Amaranth, so I doubt anything exciting will happen
<cbx33> well I have nothing to report
<Amaranth> i don't think we're having a meeting
<cbx33> no
<HedgeMage> They're probably in some meeting that conflicts with this or something
<cbx33> we're abandoning then?
* cbx33 will stay in the channel incase it picks up
<cbx33> <!---------------------------------------meeting notes end here------------------------------------------------->
<HedgeMage> pditto
<HedgeMage> ditto even
* jenda isn't really here...
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-22
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<licio> Seveas, ping
<Seveas> licio, pong
<BlueT_> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 26 Jun 21:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 13:30: Xubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Russell> when is the next CC meeting?
<rraphink> !topic
<raphink> Russell: look at the topic
<Russell> raphink: it's not there
<Russell> raphink: or maybe it's written in invisible pixels
<raphink> then it's probably next month
<Russell> alright, that helps. thanks a lot.
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-23
<robitaille> @topic
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 04 Jul 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 05 Jul 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 29 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 04 Jul 22:00: Technical Board | 05 Jul 22:00: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* jarufe is away: zzzZZ !!!
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-24
<juantao> when will the next meeting of the Community Council be?  I'm not sure what "The next meeting of the Council will be at TBC on #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net" means. Thank you.
<dsas> juantao: It means it's to be confirmed. I'd expect sometime after the third of July if my memory is true.
<juantao> thanks a lot : -)
<GNAM> @schedule Rome
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<GNAM> wow
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 29 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 04 Jul 22:00: Technical Board | 05 Jul 22:00: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<johndarkhorse> anyone have any idea of the next CC meeting?
<jenda> johndarkhorse: Kamion suggested tuesday.
<johndarkhorse> thanks y'all
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-25
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 29 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 04 Jul 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 05 Jul 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 27 Jun 07:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 30 Jun 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Jul 06:00: Technical Board | 06 Jul 06:00: Edubuntu | 07 Jul 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 29 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 04 Jul 22:00: Technical Board | 05 Jul 22:00: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-18
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<Hobbsee> heh.  would help if i could spell
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-19
<effraie> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 19 Jun 19:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00: Kernel Team
<bashelier> effraie: looks like there is no CC planed yet :'(
<effraie> well, i'hope it will arrive soon
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 19 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
<Keybuk> mjg59: are you around this evening?
<LaserJock> hi Keybuk
<mjg59> Keybuk: Yes
<mjg59> Though possibly slightly time-limited
<Keybuk> let's get going then
<Keybuk> I'm not expecting mdz, he's walking back from Scotland or something
<ogra> heh
<mjg59> Cool.
<LaserJock> and no sabdfl?
<Keybuk> are there any MOTU applicants awaiting Tech Board blessing?
<mjg59> LaserJock: Also travelling
<Keybuk> in fact, I don't think any members of the MOTU Council are actually here <g>
<Keybuk> moving on then
<Keybuk> ubuntu-core-dev applicants
<Keybuk> LaserJock:
* ogra cheers
<LaserJock> yep
<Keybuk> we received the recommendation from the MOTU Council via e-mail, and now seems like as good a time as any
<Keybuk> please introduce yourself, say a little about what you've been doing in universe; and also what you'd like to do in main
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha, I'm a PhD Physical Chemistry student
<Keybuk> (and click the "join this team" button in Launchpad ... it helps <g>)
<LaserJock> I've been a MOTU for over a year, mostly involved with MOTU Science (team lead), MOTU education and mentoring new people
<LaserJock> I authored the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> and do various things around Ubuntu
<LaserJock> In Main my primary interest is in Edubuntu
<ogra> LaserJock is *the* number one edubuntu contributor, he helped from nearly day one with packaging, bugfixing and docs  ... he often helps out on main packages since the beginning and i'd appreciate if he could upload himself
<LaserJock> I've been to the last 3 UDSs and have been working on a few specs
<LaserJock> I also maintain the edubuntu-docs package
<LaserJock> I'm primarily interested in the desktop related stuff in Edubuntu
<LaserJock> looking at educational apps and getting things pushed onto the Addon CD
<LaserJock> as well as trying to give teachers/students the best experience possible
<LaserJock> that's mostly it
<LaserJock> if you want more I'd be happy to elaborate
<Keybuk> mjg59: any questions?
<mjg59> LaserJock: So you're interested more in the upper layers of edubuntu than the low-level stuff?
<LaserJock> yes
<mjg59> Ok
<LaserJock> I'm a Chemist by training and I'm very keen on getting Edubuntu into Universities
<LaserJock> so I'm looking at the default app selection and categorizing menus/apps, etc.
<jikanter> But, since you are a chemistry student, isn't their device drivers for pH probes and stuff like that? are you interested in that?
<mjg59> Improving the default experience is a good plan
<LaserJock> I leave most of the heavy lifting like LTSP and network auth stuff to ogra
<LaserJock> ;_)
<LaserJock> jikanter: to some extent yes
<ogra> you do a lot of heavy lifting in the package area
<mjg59> How would you rate edubuntu at the moment?
<LaserJock> although I'm personally less interested in hardware than educational apps
<LaserJock> mjg59: hmm, it's very good as an LTSP server
<LaserJock> we need to do more work polishing up the Addon CD, IMO, as ogra well knows
<LaserJock> Feisty was the first time in Ubuntu we've used a 2nd CD
<LaserJock> and I think we need to work more on getting apps for teachers
<LaserJock> we've already got things like moodle in the works
<LaserJock> and I plan on sponsoring some of that work
<ogra> but it surely lacks in the edu application area ... where LaserJock is been very very helpful in the past with finding the right thing for the task and even caring for it
<LaserJock> I've been working on MIR Candidates
<LaserJock> and writing up the MIRs
<LaserJock> and I then plan to more-or-less maintain the apps I get into Main
<LaserJock> I'd also like to develop the volunteer dev community in Edubuntu
<LaserJock> we have 2 people who expressed an interest at Sevilla in becoming MOTUs
<ogra> yeah, i was about to mention that you currently train motu hopefuls :)
<LaserJock> I'd like to help them along that path and sponsor their work, if needed, in Main
<LaserJock> mjg59: so overall I think Edubuntu is on a very good path
<LaserJock> but because of the Universe/Main separation and Canonical supportability, it's a little behind some of the other edu distros when it comes to app selection
<mjg59> Ok
<mjg59> So being in a better position to maintain stuff in main would help that
<LaserJock> yes
<ogra> a lot
<mjg59> Keybuk: Anything from you?
<Keybuk> mjg59: I'm pretty happy actually
<mjg59> Yes, me too
<ogra> \o/
<Keybuk> Ok
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<mjg59> +1 here
<ogra> congrats LaserJock !
<LaserJock> thanks
<ogra> that was a long way
<mjg59> Welcome to a larger bugload!
<LaserJock> hehe
<sbalneav> \o/ for LaserJock
<LaserJock> thank sbalneav
<stgraber> congrats LaserJock
<Keybuk> err, ignore the deactive bounce there
<Keybuk> LP confused me with its button layout *again*
<Keybuk> do we have any other business?
<ogra> you know where to complain :)
<jikanter> congrats LaserJock
<LaserJock> thank you jikanter
<mjg59> I'm still working on a writeup on Automatix
<LaserJock> ah good, I'll be glad to see it
<Keybuk> mjg59: how's that going?
<highvolt1ge> LaserJock: I've thought about that too, before
<mjg59> Mildly blocked by real world stuff
<mjg59> Should be done by next meeting. I'll mail the board.
<Keybuk> *nods*
<Keybuk> in that case, let's adjourn for now
<Keybuk> thanks all
<Keybuk> ogra: can you mail ubuntu-devel and introduce Jordan to everyone as a new core-dev
<LaserJock> thank you Keybuk and mjg59, you've made my release ;-)
<ogra> Keybuk, indeed
<bashelier> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-20
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<coreymon77> man
<coreymon77> the ubuntu community council meeting still hasnt been announced
<coreymon77> ?
<highvoltage> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 20 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Jun 18:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu
<coreymon77> ive looked
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<ogra> meep meep
<willvdl> meep
<ogra> lets keep this short today :)
<willvdl> ++
* RichEd waves
<ogra> soo, lets get started ?
<stgraber> good evening
<willvdl> ogra, shoot
<sbalneav> Present, teacher
<nixternal> howdy
<ogra> well, my update is sitting mainly on planet.ubuntu.com  today :)
<ogra> for tech that is
<sbalneav> \o/ for us.
<RichEd> hi sbalneav , nixternal , stgraber
* RichEd leads the 3 cheers for olli olli olliver
<cliebow_> yay
<ogra> yeah, sbalneav did some awesome work on ldm the ast days
<RichEd> and scot scot scottie !
<ogra> he deserves a lot cheering :)
<ogra> thats a milestone breakthrough in LTSP  ....
<sbalneav> I have a help item for the end of the meeting.
<ogra> gutsy will get *very* intresting
<sbalneav> Danka schoen.
<ogra> byond the ltsp work i didnt do much this week, we all were up to our sholders in the guts of ltsp during the last 5-10 days :)
<ogra> LaserJock made his main dev application finally ...
<ogra> he can upload to main now and already started working on stuff :)
<cliebow_> bbiab
<ogra> well, anyway, nothing else comes to mind for tech stuff this week ... the CDs seem to look fine atm ...
<ogra> any questions for tech ?
* RichEd has nothing
<ogra> oki, documentation
<ogra> anyone ?
<ogra> hmm, quiet today
<sbalneav> Umm, I've been doing a bit of piddling with the new ltsp
<willvdl> sorry
<nixternal> has it been decided on how to move forward with the layout yet on docs? i.e. topic based help?
<willvdl> the recipe page is up
<sbalneav> nothing's been uploaded to the svn yet.
<willvdl> ++ for laserjock's suggestion
<willvdl> although the proof is in the pudding
<willvdl> nixternal, not yet
<willvdl> I put the discussion page on the wiki
<willvdl> but we need to decide how to handle TBH versus Recipes versus Handbook
<sbalneav> Mmmm, pudding.
<nixternal> OK, what is the #1 item to get taken care of for docs at this time?
<willvdl> nixternal, structure :|
<willvdl> as we discussed last time, TBH for us versus Ubuntu is an interesting question
<nixternal> true. any plans to pull recipes in as a doc that can be installed locally?
<willvdl> nixternal, the idea is mainly to get recipes
<nixternal> gotcha
<willvdl> contribution is the biggest thing
<willvdl> the FAQ page is having some success
<willvdl> I think we all like the idea of the handbook being a TBH structure but we need to leverage a good doc base to do it
<nixternal> do we have a list of items that need to be added to this doc base? I just don't want to wait until the last minute and have nothing to show when it comes to freeze time
<nixternal> I feel this has happened for the past 2 releases now, although we at least had a little bit to show for Feisty thanks to LaserJock
<willvdl> nixternal, no we don't. we need contribs
<willvdl> and sbalnaev
<nixternal> k, what needs to be contributed? I will leave ltsp stuff to sbalneav for 2 reasons, 1) I am ignorant when it comes to ltsp, and 2) sbalneav is the mastah :)
<willvdl> nixternal, essentially we have  technical references i.e. ltsp, gui management tools and any other edubuntu specific config or usage stuff
<LaserJock> blah, busy day, sorry I'm late
<willvdl> and then we have recipes which look at best practices, use cases, experiences
<nixternal> welcome LaserJock
<willvdl> LaserJock, just in time :)
<RichEd> hi TaserJock
<willvdl> I'm not up to speed with the thin client gui stuff
<ogra> there is no chaneg yet
<ogra> *change
<willvdl> ogra, or tcm
<ogra> TCM is still the same as in feisty, cbx33 seems to have lost interest
<willvdl> nixternal, the best I can offer at the mo is to grab from a pool of 3rd party docs and integrate
<ogra> i will keep it updated if anything changes wrt dependencies, but wont add any code this release
<ogra> so if nobody steps up it wont change
<ogra> eyond that there is no ltsp gui stuff yet ...
<willvdl> cool
<ogra> i'm hoping to get some done this release, but there was more important low level stuff first
<ogra> that will get documented along development
<ogra> i'm also working on ldm translatability ... probably something to point out to the translators
<willvdl> well, in a nutshell we have the recipes which we should push on the MLs
<willvdl> IMHO
<ogra> right
<willvdl> it's our best bet
<ogra> there is also this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-users/2007-May/001059.html
<willvdl> if folks can write up their configs/experiences etc. it is _very_ valuable
<ogra> i was hoping for a community member to step up and sort it
<willvdl> ogra, saw that and it is bookmarked
<ogra> probably i wasnt clear enough in the mail, since nobody stepped up for it ...
<willvdl> I want to handle it in an attempt to move those docs from wiki.edu.org to help.u.c
<willvdl> but time...
<ogra> willvdl, well, its a trivial task we should give to some new contributor
<ogra> its good to find your way in ...
<willvdl> shweet
<willvdl> damn it, reminds me I didn't finalise the bite sized task page
<willvdl> urk
<willvdl> shall we move to the website?
<ogra> sure
<willvdl> highvoltage, you here?
<ogra> even pips1 is missing today
<willvdl> ogra, we had a small problem with the server
<RichEd> willvdl: he went to bed about 45 mins ago (highvoltage)
<willvdl> it was running breezy
<ogra> ouch
<ogra> thats bad ...
<ogra> was it upgraded now ?
<willvdl> is said theyd have it done by today
<ogra> oki
<willvdl> wanted to check with highvoltage since I was on a plane
<willvdl> anyhoo. once we have a stable webserver
<willvdl> we can introduce the new template
<ogra> cool
<willvdl> then we can update front page docs and references
<willvdl> a HIGH priority
<RichEd> good stuff ...
<ogra> do we have a public preview of the new stuff ?
<ogra> css etc ?
<willvdl> don't know without pips1 or highvoltage. I know there is a sandbox somoewhere
<ogra> ok, next week then
<willvdl> same server as the beta community site
<ogra> ah
<willvdl> ogra, it is my priority for tomorrow :)
<RichEd> On a related note, Gerry (canonical PRO) and Joe (external PRO) will speak to me about a general edubuntu marketing campaign / plan ... either tomorrow or next thursday during a con call.
<ogra> cool
<RichEd> So we can reuse the updated information we put together ...
<willvdl> excellent
<RichEd> Seems like some decent enquiries are now coming in from the US ...
<RichEd> (that v!$st@ stuff seems to be makking people nervous)
<ogra> is that gerry carr ?
<RichEd> Yep ... Gerry Carr, and they use Joe Eckhart to manage the journalist enquiries
<ogra> ah, very cool, we met at linuxtag in berlin
<RichEd> Gerry is UK based (in the office) and Joe is US consultant
<ogra> anything else for docs ?
<ogra> seems not ...
<willvdl> nope. going to push recipes on the ML :)
<ogra> since we skipped artwork ... just pro-forma ... anything for artwork ?
<willvdl> not from me
<ogra> seems not either ...
<ogra> well, moving on then ...
<ogra> community ?
<willvdl> Jordan ++
<RichEd> pips1 has been working on the community site ... he and i spoke during the week
<willvdl> LaserJock, ++ I mean
* ogra was rather busy in #ltsp the last days and didnt pay deep attention to #edubuntu
<ogra> willvdl, yeah
<RichEd> not much to report ... just that pips1 is soldiering on
<ogra> our developer community has grown by 100% in main :)
<ogra> (edubuntu develpper community)
<RichEd> \o/
<ogra> well ... i think RichEd already went ahead with marketing before ...
<ogra> :)
<ogra> anything to add ?
<RichEd> On the Management Side ... been busy with:
<RichEd>  1) Intel and the Classmate PC
<RichEd>  2) Edulinux Moodle project
<RichEd>  3) Objectives planning for next 6 months
<RichEd> That's all ... behind the scenes stuff ...
<ogra> great :)
<RichEd> Not too much of interest, except that Intel are working closer and close with *buntu
<willvdl> ogra, did you get the classmate wireless driver?
<ogra> willvdl, nope, still waiting for BenC
<willvdl> cool
<ogra> i *have* a selfbuilt drive i use in the image, but it lacks network-manager support which Bens apparently has
<ogra> *driver
<ogra> willvdl, well, not really
* RichEd was wondering about oliver building a HDD ... was very impressed for a minute
* LaserJock is at work, and finishes reading backlog
<ogra> if justin would be more push we'd have a prob
<ogra> *pushy
<RichEd> ogra: for once it is the "contract people" who have held things up ...
<willvdl> ?
<ogra> RichEd, well, i couldnt do much on the image for more than a wek now since that blocks me ...
<RichEd> the work you have done and from ben is good faith ... still no paperwork to back it up
<ogra> and the people who are in charge know that but still dont get their asses up
<RichEd> ^ needs to be formalised really ... so we can allocate time
<willvdl> ogra, did any of the Eduvision guys contact you about classmate image?
<ogra> willvdl, nope
<ogra> nothing apart from your mail wehre you CCed me
<willvdl> okie. will ping them again on the side.
<willvdl> will be interested to see what they did on Classmate
<willvdl> better yet, local phone call :)
<willvdl> shall we wrap up?
<willvdl> I'd like to make an urgent call for documentation writers
* RichEd is happy to wind it up for the night
<LaserJock> I'm planning on pushing out an edubuntu-docs soonish
<willvdl> all contribs welcome!
<LaserJock> probably this evening after work
<sbalneav> I'll get more doco done once devel slacks off a bit.
<willvdl> LaserJock, as usual, you're my new best friend
<ogra_> hrm
<ogra_> LaserJock had an item for the agenda and i think we're done with the general stuff
<LaserJock> right now I'm working on patching gnome-panel to not show About Ubuntu when About Edubuntu is installed
<LaserJock> ogra_: I did?
<sbalneav> I have an item, when we're done everything important.
<ogra_> LaserJock, sorry mixed you with sbalneav ... you ook so similar you two ... i always mix yu up :P
<willvdl> All these americans look aliek
<LaserJock> ogra_: haha
<sbalneav> LaserJock: I'm flattered, I think you should be insulted.
* RichEd does that all the time ... met one ... met them all
<LaserJock> willvdl: heah, he's Canadian
<sbalneav> AMERCIAN?!?!?!
<LaserJock> we don't claim him
<sbalneav> Puleeeez
<LaserJock> ;-)
<willvdl> argh. oops
<sbalneav> :)
<sbalneav> ok, here's my question.
<sbalneav> WHY ARE MY *&*&%@*^% BLOG POSTS ALWAYS SCREWED UP?
<ogra_> are they ?
<sbalneav> Can someone PLEASE tell me what I'm doing wrong?
<sbalneav> Yes
* RichEd suspects it has something to do with a Caps Lock key ?
<RichEd> (and bad language)
<ogra_> sbalneav, your clock on the server is wrong ?
<sbalneav> it's like my entire blog entry's in the title?
<sbalneav> I'm using the google bloggy thing.
<ogra_> no idea about that
<sbalneav> If someone can figure it out, there's a beer in it for them in Boston.
<sbalneav> :)
<ogra_> i use a totally outdated blosxom setup
<willvdl> sbalneav, you mena fridge or planet or what?
<sbalneav> On planet.
<ogra_> and add my entries with vi as .txt files ot the data dir ...
<ogra_> so dont ask me about blogging :)
<RichEd> sbalneav: ask nixternal ? he's a fridge editor ?
<sbalneav> nixternal: any idears?
<willvdl> and LaserJock ...
<willvdl> folks, shattered. going to bed. will pop minutes up tomorrow
<sbalneav> I'm getting frightened of LaserJock.  I mean, he's now more powerful than Ollie.
<nixternal> huh?
<RichEd> or better still ... ask as a comment in your next post ... mention that you don't know why _xyz_ happens ... and offer that beer to the floor ?
<LaserJock> hmm, I think not
<sbalneav> I mean, they're both able to commit to main, but LaserJock's got access to Lasers as well.
<LaserJock> sbalneav: I'm eeeeevvvverywhere
* RichEd screams and runs ..... aaargh flee from the TaserJock
<sbalneav> Main + Lasers = a force to be reckoned with.
<willvdl> but does he have access to shark's with laserbeams on their frikkin heads?
<LaserJock> of course
<sbalneav> All he needs is a shark
<willvdl> seabass will do
<willvdl> illtempered of course
<sbalneav> A very annoyed mackeral will do.
<LaserJock> I'm doing an interdisciplinary reasearch study with an aquatic mammals group in the Biology dept.
<LaserJock> ;-)
<sbalneav> lol
* LaserJock starts humming "White and Nerdy"
<RichEd> LaserJock: is that how the mermaid abuse rumours got started ?
<ogra_> lol
<sbalneav> nixternal: my blog posts on planet are always mucked up
<sbalneav> Something with the googly blogger thingymadoodle.
<nixternal> hahaha
<LaserJock> RichEd: I plead the 5th
<willvdl> LaserJock, mackeral are hardly "nerdly", just "misunderstood"
<nixternal> there is no telling with the planet
<ogra_> to me it looks as if the clock is totally wrong first place ...
<ogra_> scotty post was after mine but shows up way below
<ogra_> *scotties post
<sbalneav> Well, between my mucked up posts, and Scott James Remnant randomly re-posting every blog entry he's ever made, it makes for interesting reading :)
<sbalneav> Yeah, I notice that.
<ogra_> sbalneav, thats a bug of his blog software
<sbalneav> Probably have to set a timezone somewhere.
<LaserJock> I use wordpress.com and everything works wonderfully
<ogra_> LaserJock, how boring
<LaserJock> I know
<LaserJock> I even migrated the blog
<LaserJock> and it "Just Worked"
<ogra_> bah
<ogra_> anyway, anything else for the meeting ?
<ogra_> going once ...
<LaserJock> not particularly
<ogra_> going twwwwice ...
<LaserJock> I'll try to flex my new found powers this week
<sbalneav> Can I be dismissed, teacher?
<ogra_> adjourned ...
<ogra_> !!
* sbalneav bangs gavel
<RichEd> thanks all
<ogra_> thanks all
<RichEd> have a good one
<sbalneav> Bitte schoen
<ogra_> you too
<LaserJock> sbalneav: that's how it's spelled?
* RichEd waves goodbye to the four corners of the known edubuntu world
<sbalneav> Well, it should be schon with an umlaut over the o
<willvdl> sbalneav, buy a donkey
<sbalneav> But when I turn my : key sideways, it doesn't work.
<ogra> LaserJock, oe is the proper way to write 
<RichEd> sbalneav: try harder ... twist your head perhaps ?
<sbalneav> yeah, that thing.
<willvdl> loose translation for "baie dankie"
<RichEd> goodnight
<sbalneav> Night
<willvdl> sbalneav, you've got to turn your monitor with it
<ogra> night
<sbalneav> Ohhh, THAT's what I'm doing wrong.
<LaserJock> phew
<LaserJock> and they let you code?
<LaserJock> ;-)
<sbalneav> Yes, apparently.
<sbalneav> No accounting for taste.
<sbalneav> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-21
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 18:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
<dholbach> good morning
<cynics> @schedule shanghai
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 22 Jun 02:00: Mozilla Team | 22 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 23:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 04:00: Xubuntu Developers
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 22 Jun 04:00: Mozilla Team | 22 Jun 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Jun 06:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 27 Jun 01:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 06:00: Xubuntu Developers
<jsgotangco> @schedule manila
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Manila: 22 Jun 02:00: Mozilla Team | 22 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 23:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 04:00: Xubuntu Developers
<jsgotangco> Hobbsee: i thought you were in Perth?
<Hobbsee> jsgotangco: ....nope
<Hobbsee> jsgotangco: i've never been to perth
* jsgotangco wonders who was the one he has been talking to from perth *snicker*
<Hobbsee> not sure.
<evand> @schedule New_York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 21 Jun 14:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 16:00: Xubuntu Developers
<dendrobates> Are we having this today?
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 22:00: Xubuntu Developers
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 21 Jun 14:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 16:00: Xubuntu Developers
<tkjacobsen> @schedule copenhagen
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 22:00: Xubuntu Developers
<laga> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 21 Jun 20:00: Mozilla Team | 21 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 22:00: Xubuntu Developers
<laga> duh, i feel stupid now
<Ju> ;-)
<wmagliano> hola
<wmagliano> alguien "habla" espaol?
<pochu> wmagliano: yo, pero mejor pregunta en #ubuntu-es
<wmagliano> :D gracias
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Mozilla Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
<hjmf> hi
<JenFraggle> hello
<asac> hi all :)
<asac> if you attend please add your name to the Wiki :)
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<asac> gnomefreak: yt?
<Admiral_Chicago> sorry I can't stay people
<JenFraggle> done
<asac> cool ... lets wait another minute for gnomefreak ... who was pretty sure to be here ;)
<hjmf> ok
<JenFraggle> no worries
* Admiral_Chicago afk.
<Admiral_Chicago> have a good meeting everyone, feel free to sign up JenFraggle for everything
<asac> Admiral_Chicago: bye
<JenFraggle> bye bye
<asac> gnomefreak: 2 min :)
<tkamppeter> @schedules lisbon
<asac> ok so lets get started ;)
<JenFraggle> ok
<asac> we actually have a pretty long agenda for so little people in here ;)
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<JenFraggle> be gentle, it's my first time
<asac> JenFraggle: don't worry ;)
<asac> hjmf: you there?
<hjmf> yes
<asac> so ... first item would be: Mozilla Testing Team
<asac> apparently this item was pushed back from last meeting.
<asac> I think the idea was to better organize testing
<hjmf> is gnomefreak around?
<asac> and try to get people that could do that regularly closer to mozillateam
<asac> gnomefreak: apparently not
<asac> hjmf: ^^^
<asac> i think we can skip directly to the tag review stuff ... which would involve bughelper clues and bug triagers :)
<hjmf> yes
<JenFraggle> ok
<asac> anyway ... just a few more words for the mozilla testing team
<asac> i think we should try to get the qa-team involved for that ... and setup something like a testplan
<asac> like currently exists for isotesting:
<asac> https://isotesting.stgraber.org/
<asac> then we could post that to the qateam and receive feeback from them
<hjmf> yes it would be good to have some sort of organized & directed tests
<asac> its most important to track regressions for security/stability updates that go to stable release archives
<asac> with almost no testing atm
<hjmf> I imagine that those testers will go through the mt-needtest and mt-needtester bugs
<hjmf> too
<asac> hjmf: right ... but i think those are two distinct effords
<JenFraggle> what are they testing?
<asac> 1. ensure short term quality (e.g. hard regressions in uploads)
<asac> 2. ensure long term quality (e.g. try to reproduce et al)
<asac> JenFraggle: for 2. they are trying to reproduce bugs that are tagges as mt-needtester
<asac> for 1. we have to setup kind of a testplan to verify the most important features
<asac> i have setup something on the wiki
<gnomefreak> give me a few minutes sorry im running late
<hjmf> gnomefreak: hi :)
<gnomefreak> hi
<JenFraggle> hello
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/QA?highlight=%28mozillateam%29
<asac> thats the testplan we currently have
<asac> to test if there are hard regressions directly before a release
<asac> imo we should split this up in 3-4 subtasks which will then can be tested and reviews submitted to something that is like current isotesting site (https://isotesting.stgraber.org)
<hjmf> so finally are we going to create a dedicated lp bug, or will it be more infomal?
<asac> hjmf: for what?
<hjmf> for testers
<asac> ah ... to announce that there is such a task available?
<hjmf> yes, that might an incentive
<hjmf> not sure
<JenFraggle> that is how i came across you, the firefox clue bug
<asac> hjmf: i think we should maintain existing tasks on a wiki page ... and have *one* generic bug titled 'various things todo in mozillateam' bug or something ;)
<asac> JenFraggle: what did attract you on that bug?
<asac> JenFraggle: how did you find it?
<asac> do you still remeember
<JenFraggle> i'll have a think
<gnomefreak> where are we?
<asac> gnomefreak: first point
<asac> testing team
<asac> read history ... i outlined the idea and what i think is the right way to go
<gnomefreak> ah good. ISO testing?
<JenFraggle> think it was https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+mentoring
<asac> the idea is to get something up which more or less like the isotesting site
<hjmf> asac: im ok with the idea
<JenFraggle> not 100% sure though
<gnomefreak> you mean your points 1-5
<asac> maybe a new menu item on that site: "firefox" :)
<asac> JenFraggle: so you think its better to have many bugs with mentoring that outline each single task available
<gnomefreak> oh set up like the iso tester site
<asac> JenFraggle: ... or a single one that just points to a page that contains current tasks?
<asac> gnomefreak: yes look at it
<asac> https://isotesting.stgraber.org/
<JenFraggle> not sure, i can see advantages and disadvantages to both
<gnomefreak> i have it
* stgraber should turn off hilight on stgraber.org subdomains :)
<asac> stgraber: did you develop that site?
<stgraber> yes
<asac> stgraber: how much work to add another menu item like: mozilla or firefox ?
<gnomefreak> gonna be hard since its named ISo testing?
<JenFraggle> i think the important thing would be to have a good description as that is what gets people to look further at the bug
<asac> i will talk with heno anyway, just to know about the extent of making this a more general, test-collaboration page
<asac> gnomefreak: the idea is to make something more general out of the isotesting site ... maybe different subdomains for other things.
<gnomefreak> k
<stgraber> asac: We now have some ISO specific part, but it should be possible to use the existing way of testing ISO to test software, replacing ISOs by Softwares and then use the existing testcase system
<stgraber> asac: it shouldn't be a lot of work
* gnomefreak likes it
<asac> stgraber: thats cool ... i will discuss things with heno
<hjmf> meanwhile we can do the bug with task to test idea
<hjmf> task/tasks
<asac> hjmf: right
<gnomefreak> is the plan to keep this inside mozillateam as is?
<asac> hjmf: i think we should have one open for "testcase verifier"
<asac> pointing them to the mt-needtester tag
<asac> and "testcase digger" ... people that hunt mt-needtestcase bugs to either produce a testcase or die
<hjmf> ok for me
<asac> ok ACTION: i will talk to heno how we can organize upload testing
<asac> anyone wants to open those bugs :)
<asac> ok ... i think i will do it too :)
<asac> next item
<asac> gnomefreak: ??
<gnomefreak> huh oh sorry
<gnomefreak> someone called ops
<asac> gnomefreak: your agenda item: 'Ubuntu Forums' :)
<gnomefreak> I would like a couple of people to add forums to their jobs, I will go through the process im thinking about (this could be the start of a wider testing base).
<asac> k sounds related to the previous item ... but more specific: how can we get the forum involved in testing
<gnomefreak> ok i have a template of a post for ubuntu forums i will pastebin it in a few moments
<asac> here again, i think that heno wanted to establish a forum sub-community that is dedicated to help us with QA
<gnomefreak> the reasoning is to get people instrested in the team (jobs that need people to help out with, and so on). brb gonna post letter that i need ideas on
<asac> ok
<gnomefreak> http://gnomefreak.pastebin.ca/581823  this should explain better, it is open for ideas that were missed
<gnomefreak> any questions/idea shoot when you have time if you think its something that needs to be addressed now shoot
<asac> gnomefreak: actually i think that this would be a good text for the META job bug
<gnomefreak> asac: you want the meta bug added to this?
<asac> you can add it to some forum ... and get it sticky as well ... but maybe ask pricechild or other forum staff what would be the most appropriate way to make forum users aware of this
<asac> gnomefreak: i want a meta bug that summarized tasks we have atm
<gnomefreak> asac: already done just waiting on a link to give him
<gnomefreak> asac: only one task though i thought
<gnomefreak> metabug maintainence
<asac> gnomefreak: yes ... have one bug for each task, plus one general bug 'various tasks to do in mozilla-team'
<gnomefreak> hmmmm
<asac> gnomefreak: ok ... so this is already posted to forum?
<gnomefreak> asac: unless its missing anything somepne sees
<gnomefreak> someone
<asac> gnomefreak: yeah if you cut line lines and remove *****
<asac> lines :)
<asac> then it looks good
<gnomefreak> lol
<asac> gnomefreak: please post a bug about this as well
<gnomefreak> its there to remind me
<gnomefreak> k remind me after meeting
<asac> gnomefreak: i am not really sure where to post, but thats your job to figure out :)
<gnomefreak> JenFraggle: hjmf anything?
<asac> gnomefreak: please add to wiki page as "decision" :)
<hjmf> to me looks good
<gnomefreak> asac: i already have it taken care of :)
<asac> gnomefreak: ok
<asac> ok next item?
<hjmf> however wait to post till the metabug is done
<asac> If possible i would like to either accept or decline the proposed memberships [WWW]  Proposed Members
<hjmf> or you can edit it later?
<JenFraggle> gnomefreak: ok
<asac> hjmf: yeah please post the metabug :)
<asac> gnomefreak: i mean ;)
<asac> ok next item is: <gnomefreak> If possible i would like to either accept or decline the proposed memberships [WWW]  Proposed Members
<hjmf> there aren't proposed members
<gnomefreak> done already
<hjmf> ah
<asac> gnomefreak: ah ;)
<gnomefreak> hjmf: i already got there.] 
<gnomefreak> but
<asac> next item ... wiki cleanup ;)
<gnomefreak> we have alot of members that since accepted havent done anything
<asac> JenFraggle: have you read the wiki recently
<asac> JenFraggle: what are your comments?
<hjmf> gnomefreak: yes
<gnomefreak> asac: give me a minute to type im still a bit shakey
<hjmf> maybe we should remove some
<asac> gnomefreak: maybe post after the meeting
<asac> gnomefreak: when there is no hurry
<gnomefreak> hjmf: i was thinking that wanted to pass it here
<asac> hjmf: from the team?
<gnomefreak> asac: yes
<hjmf> yes
<asac> yeah ... how to remove ... what procedure to follow?
<gnomefreak> "click deactivate"
<asac> no activity for 3 month without any notice, that one is on holiday or seomthgin?
<gnomefreak> :)
<hjmf> some haven't done anything
<JenFraggle> asac: I've been having a look through and am thinking of what could be changed to be more newbie friendly.  haven't had as much time as i would like to look at it at the moment
<gnomefreak> asac: im more concerned about the people we accepted that havent done anything
<asac> JenFraggle: you think you can give us some comments on mailing list?
<hjmf> some accepted at the creation of the group that never appeared
<asac> JenFraggle: unless you have some initial comments at hand now :) ... then go ahead ;)
<asac> hjmf: yeah ... lets drop them
<hjmf> the states and tags pages need an update
<asac> gnomefreak: can you do?
<gnomefreak> yes
<JenFraggle> asac: nothing to hand at the moment, still in the reading through and thinking of what needs to be changed stage
<asac> JenFraggle: ok ... cool ... go ahead :)
<gnomefreak> ok JenFraggle asac what item are you on?
<asac> still the wiki cleanup
<gnomefreak> oh you went there already
<asac> i ?
<JenFraggle> trying to give a beginners perspective
<asac> gnomefreak: oh right ... anything for the forum we missed?
<gnomefreak> asac: im on proposed/inactive memebers
<gnomefreak> well finished now
<JenFraggle> gnomefreak: sorry
<hjmf> :)
<gnomefreak> its ok
<asac> gnomefreak: ah ... yeah
<gnomefreak> ok wiki clean up
<hjmf> so wiki...
<asac> gnomefreak: i think we decided to remove all that never appeared for now
<gnomefreak> asac: working on it
<asac> gnomefreak: ok
<asac> ok ... JenFraggle will help to provide a beginners view (maybe a beginners page?)
<asac> 2. i think I need to review the bugs/states page
<hjmf> I think many pages need a review and an update
<asac> but that is a topic on its own later this meeting :)
<gnomefreak> we need people to work on wikis badly, asac JenFraggle i like that idea
<JenFraggle> Beginner I can do, complicated stuff is beyond me at the moment
<gnomefreak> we need a how to bug traige is main page atm
<asac> i think the idea is: when you see that something is missing you add it on your own or take care that someone adds that content :)
<hjmf> ...sad to say that my english is too poor to be of any help in wiki improvement
<asac> JenFraggle: thats pretty fine.
<gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: said he was working on it but i havent seen it. maybe thats the place for beginner bug traige
<asac> hjmf: i don't think that english problems should stop you from editing it
<gnomefreak> JenFraggle: do what you know :)
<asac> hjmf: you can add the content ... others can clean up
<JenFraggle> just a reminder that as I'm British, anything I do will be in British English, not American ;o)
<asac> JenFraggle: hey ;) ... better then germanish :)
<hjmf> JenFraggle: to me that's  better
<gnomefreak> JenFraggle: can be fixed :)
<JenFraggle> The Queen's English and all that
<JenFraggle> I'll try not to make it Cornish
<JenFraggle> me 'ansome
<asac> but please don't modify just to change spelling from english to american and vv :)
<JenFraggle> i wouldn't
<asac> if you touch content for other reasons ... do what you like ;)
<gnomefreak> if someone gets me a template to use i can fill in the stuff
<asac> gnomefreak: fill in what stuff?
<gnomefreak> asac: if someone pretty much sets up page i can fix it addd things to it. my problem is the beggining part of wikis i suck at
<asac> ah ok
<asac> so if hjmf drops some abbreviated content you can fill it with sentences for instance ;)
<asac> good
<JenFraggle> i don't know how to do the fancy lines and stuff
<hjmf> lol
<asac> i think that is enough for now ... again, if you see anything that is missing ... just add it
<hjmf> something that make sense :D
<asac> JenFraggle: you will see ... if you press edit just copy what you see elsewhere
<JenFraggle> always a bonus if it makes sense
<gnomefreak> ok mermbers cleaned up
<gnomefreak> asac: yes
<hjmf> looking anxiously
<asac> ok ... moving on?
<hjmf> ok
<hjmf> next
<asac> ME: Plugins/Extension Gutsy Day
<asac> i have the feeling that i don't have a big picture on what extension/plugins exists, which ones are broken for us et al.
<gnomefreak> you want to support all plugins? please god tell me i read that wrong
<asac> and i am pretty much lost because there are so many of them ... and i usually won't be able to identify a testcase so quickly ... because i mostly don't understand there use
<hjmf> so far we already have some bugs about extensions
<asac> gnomefreak: no ... i just want a big picture ... what extensions/plugins exist and which do work
<hjmf> maybe we can create a pool of thirdparty masterish reports
<hjmf> instead of reject them because of being third party addons
<gnomefreak> put all ones you want tested into a wiki page and ill be glad to pull and test. or something organized like that
<gnomefreak> what wasa decided about wiki cleanup?
<asac> gnomefreak: point is that doesn't scale much
<hjmf> gnomefreak: there is already such wiki page
<asac> gnomefreak: and how will you be able to identify a testcase for all
<asac> ?
<hjmf> the QA i think
<asac> hjmf: yes the QA page has a bunch of extensions
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/QA
<asac> its just plugins
<gnomefreak> acroread is nolonger supported
<asac> ... anyway ... i think before we can actually test something we need input from people who use those ... on how to test
<hjmf> it can be extended to extensions too
<asac> e.g. what url is a typical use-case ... and what to do there in order to test
<asac> hjmf: yes, but i think we should add extensions on demand, e.g. when a testcase is contributed  ... otherwise the list will probably be infinite
<gnomefreak> any extension that has a bug attached to it
<asac> actually I would like to add some kind of survey to the forums (again!) :)
<gnomefreak> example clorozilla
<asac> e.g. people that use extension should take a minute and post how they use their extension somewhere
<gnomefreak> colorzilla even
<asac> gnomefreak: yeah ... but we just have a few extensions like that
<gnomefreak> asac: a few will get us started
<asac> yes ... but colorzilla has no testcase, because its just broken :)
<hjmf> I can use my retraces to dig e.g https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/120001/comments/4
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 120001 in firefox "[FEISTY]  firefox crashed [@nsPluginInstanceOwner::GetDocument]  [@GetJSContext]  [@nsJSNPRuntime::OnPluginDestroy] " [High,Incomplete] 
<asac> its more interesting to get testcases for things that work
<hjmf> I can ask for those extensions as they appear
<hjmf> for edgy and feisty of course
<hjmf> as gusty is autoretraced
<asac> hjmf: yeah getting all extension ids out of backtraces or reports is good
<asac> but actually i think we should work on the apport hook file ... so we get a list of installed extensions automatically
<asac> its written in python :)
<hjmf> ... have to look :)
<asac> and there is already an example which David developed once
<asac> bug 88506
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 88506 in firefox "use apport hooks to get more "standard" information on intial bug submission" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88506
<asac> we could use that hook to list all folders in /usr/lib/firefox/extensions/ ... as well as the extensions.ini file from the profile
<asac> at best attach extensions.ini + a list of foders in the profiles extensions folder as well
<hjmf> yes
<asac> example is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/Apport/Hooks
<hjmf> I'll work on it if nobody does
<hjmf> ... I dunno if Admiral_Chicago was working on it
<asac> i don't think so ... but maybe he wants to help as well
<gnomefreak> asac: ping me before we move on to next topic please
<hjmf> asac: where are the apport-hooks ?
<asac> ok cool ... i think i will push these plugin-testdays back a few weeks until i discussed with heno how to organize testing in general.
<hjmf> in the apport branch
<hjmf> no matter, I'll look
<asac> hjmf:  no ... just in wiki
<asac> hjmf: we would have to ship them with firefox package
<hjmf> ah
<hjmf> ah ok
<asac> e.g. put that file somewhere
<hjmf> cool
<asac> that info will attached on crash reports and if people press report a bug in firefox help menu
<asac> gnomefreak: ok ... i think we are through this
<asac> next
<gnomefreak> ok
<hjmf> yes, I know that, but I thought it would be like clue files :)
<hjmf> nevermind :D
<gnomefreak> how about 2 days a month one wiki day and 1 bug day
<asac> since there were just two new states added, its not that pressing to adapt our tag/states policy imo
<gnomefreak> bug day can reside inside hugday
<gnomefreak> asac: but they were renamed
<asac> hjmf: yeah ... difference is that we ship it to every system while clue files are only pulled to people that want to use bughelper :)
<hjmf> asac: k
<asac> gnomefreak: you mean plugin-qaday?
<gnomefreak> asac: wiki clean up day and bug day and plugin-day if you wish
<asac> hjmf: if you have questions how this work ... just ask in mt channel ;)
<asac> gnomefreak: wow ... al at once?
<hjmf> asac: I think I got the idea :)
<gnomefreak> separate days
<asac> hjmf: i know :)
<gnomefreak> btw all clue files or hooks need to be redone with new status names since we no longer have needs info and such
<asac> gnomefreak: ok ... so you mean in collaboration with qa team?
<asac> gnomefreak: yeah ... needs info is gone
<asac> but that is all afaik
<asac> ah unconfirmed as well
<asac> and rejected
<gnomefreak> most are renamed
<asac> but i don't think we use them in clue files atm
<asac> JenFraggle: any idea`?
<gnomefreak> i think confirmed is only one left
<hjmf> that wont be a problem since is just a rename of states in most cases
<asac> yeah ... but taht just a single replace for each tag ... so don't bother :)
<JenFraggle> i haven't really had anything to do with tags so am not really sure
<asac> s/tag/state/
<asac> JenFraggle: ah ok.
<asac> yeah ... but it probably is just a single replace
<asac> hjmf: you have a cluefile at hand?
<hjmf> yes
<asac> hjmf: how is the sytax to match state needs info?
<hjmf> looking
<asac> maybe we can add a compatibility layer in bughelper :)
<asac> e.g. just allow needs info to match incomplete as well :)
<asac> but since its just a replace, i am not sure if its worth the efford
<asac> though ... there are lots of clue files :)
<hjmf> statusNEEDSINFO
<hjmf> ?
<hjmf> however Admiral_Chicago sent a patch today to bughelper
<hjmf> didn't see it though
<asac> hjmf: did it include compatibility?
<hjmf> Bug 121501
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 121501 in bughelper "bughelper is outdated due to LP update." [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/121501
<asac> becuse that sytax above is not an exact match anyway ... so implementing a graceful transition would be pretty easy imo
<asac> hmmm it doesn't touch any match metho
<asac> d
<asac> so is statusNEEDSINFO automatically guessed?
<hjmf> no idea really
<asac> from the status text?
<asac> appears so ... well then we just should adapt clue files for us
<asac> Admiral_Chicago: will you take care of fixing s/statusNEEDSINFO/statusINCOMPLETE/ in cluefiles?
<gnomefreak> hes not here afaik
<asac> i read that as yes :-O
<asac> :-P
<gnomefreak> :)
<asac> yeah ... he agreed .. i am sure ;)
<asac> cool ... i think we are through then ... btw, what happens to the old meetings pages?
<gnomefreak> asac: are you leaving before devel meeting?
<asac> they are apparently wiped
<asac> gnomefreak: no
<gnomefreak> asac: good
<asac> i have to stop typing for a few
<asac> and browse some code
<asac> :)
<gnomefreak> asac: im not sure lets meave it and ask alex
<gnomefreak> when we see him
<asac> lets rename them with date after the meeting
<gnomefreak> i think thats how it was done
<asac> i don't like the idea that those pages get lost
<asac> and wading through irc logs is not nice :)
<asac> gnomefreak: i searched on wiki for mozillateam meeting
<gnomefreak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Mozilla
<asac> ah cool
<asac> ok
<asac> then all is fine :)
<JenFraggle> there is a link to that page on the agenda page
<gnomefreak> we done?
<asac> JenFraggle: yes ... for me it read as if its just irc logs there .)
<agoliveira> Sorry but I'm being stupid for missing the meeting or for being too early?
<JenFraggle> asac: i was nosy and clicked
<gnomefreak> agoliveira: what meeting?
<asac> ok if we are done thanks all ... sorry for the a bit lengthy meeting ;)
<gnomefreak> asac: we had it to use
<asac> agoliveira: this is still mozilla meeting :)
<hjmf> thanks all
<agoliveira> Ah
<asac> agoliveira: so no need to worry ;)
<agoliveira> Ufs :)
<asac> agoliveira: your brain is still intact :)
<agoliveira> asac: No it's not. I'm feeling awful today and *my brain hurts!* ;)
<asac> agoliveira: oh ;) ... maybe don't look at mobile screens only :-P
<agoliveira> I wish ;)
<asac> agoliveira: can i boot a hildon desktop easily in gutsy chroot now? i wanted to look at browser a bit :-D
<agoliveira> asac: Yes. The packages are already there but some manual adjusts might be required. Let me get the doc... hold on.
<agoliveira> asac: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure
<agoliveira> asac: Your milleage may vary but it worked for all of us so far.
<asac> agoliveira: oh ... is that linked from main mobile page already?
<asac> agoliveira: thanks ... will try ;)
<asac> agoliveira: so at best a dedicated chroot?
<agoliveira> asac: I don't know.
<agoliveira> asac: Yes
<asac> agoliveira: ok ... will try to use my existing one then :)
<agoliveira> asac: I tried as chroot and as pure gutsy. All ok.
<asac> agoliveira: ok if i run into problems i will ask on -mobile
<agoliveira> asac: Cool. Just check to see if I'm *not* there :-D
<agoliveira> asac: If you need a dedicated chroot, there is a package called project builder that does that for you.
<asac> agoliveira: i will try to use one of my existing gutsy chroots first :9
<agoliveira> asac: Should work.
<pitti> hello everyone
<BenC> hey pitti
<fabbione> yo yo
<amitk> hello
<evand> hi
<mvo> hi
<dendrobates> hey
<dholbach> hiya
<mathiaz> hello
<heno> hello
<bryce> heya
<kwwii> hi
<Keybuk> shawarma, rtg__, calc, doko, Riddell: ping
<stgraber> hey
* agoliveira waves all
* bdmurray waves
<dholbach> doko's at debconf, might be he's not around - I saw pictures of Riddell being there too
<BenC> kernel team is accounted for, pkl and kylem are absent
<keescook> hiya
<Keybuk> BenC: rtg?
<rtg__> pong
<pitti> Keybuk: summoning powers?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
* asac waves
<Keybuk> dholbach: neither of them, to my knowledge, have requested conference leave or holiday
<shawarma> o/
<tkamppeter> hi
<dholbach> Keybuk: doko's on the "Apologies" list
<Riddell> hi Keybuk
<Keybuk> dholbach: err, he isn't on my list?
<dholbach> on the distro-team list meeting announce he was
<Keybuk> ah
<Keybuk> ok
* ogra waves
<pitti> hi kylem
<kylem> hallo.
<Keybuk> kylem: welcome
<Keybuk> just calc missing then
<kylem> i've kind of given up on the whole vacation thing.
<pitti> kylem: finally some time to hack on the computer, right? :)
<ogra> kylem, whats that thing you are tlaking about ?
<dholbach> kylem: you're lucky mdz is not around: he chased seb128 out of IRC once ;-)
<amitk> kylem: vacations are overrated anyways
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Keybuk]  by ChanServ
<Keybuk> /kick kylem go back to vacation, damnit
<agoliveira> amitk: Should be, I'm without it for 5 years + now :(
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Keybuk]  by Keybuk
* mvo would like to add the outstanding merges to the agend, still quite a few left
* pitti would like to talk about tribe-2 RC bugs
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070621
<Keybuk> let's get started
* agoliveira would like to go to bed
<Keybuk> any additional agenda items from anyone?
<fabbione> nope
<heno> bug day schedule volunteers
<heno> (already under other business)
* calc is here
* Keybuk hands calc a tardy
<Keybuk> #
<Keybuk> C++ guru needed for bug 121461 (blocking inkscape merge) -- keescook
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 121461 in glib2.0 "linking problem on i386 vs amd64" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/121461
<keescook> this is in progress, it seems, and the glib and gtkmm folks are on it.
* dholbach hugs keescook
<pitti> ah, the int vs. long issue?
<keescook> it's breaking other things besides inkscape, but appears to be glib ABI breakage.  :(
<calc> heh was great my first merge found a huge bug ;)
<asac> keescook: great
<keescook> yeah, all discovered because I was showing calc some merges with a "package I knew well and wouldn't have issues with" ha ha
<calc> lol
<fabbione> keescook: you win a biscuit
<keescook> heh
<pitti> this is tagged with tribe-2, is a fix until next Tuesday realistic?
<bryce> congats calc :-)
<keescook> I'm not sure.  dholbach do you know how quickly the glib folks tend to work?
<dholbach> keescook: I'm sure this will be resolved quickly
<pitti> this sounds like it could possibly affect lots of applications?
<ogra> pfft ...
<ogra> c++ only
<dholbach> ogra: ....
<dholbach> :)
<keescook> yeah, though I'm still not 100% clear on which... is it just those that were recompiled, or will we actually see things crashing?
<ogra> it will teach them to take python in the future HAHA !
<keescook> ogra: it seems it's a glib ABI thing, so not just c++
<dholbach> I didn't see crashes because of it yet, just ftbfs
<keescook> okay, cool.
<ogra> keescook, ouch
<pitti> dholbach: sounds like pure luck then, always masking the higher 32 bits which are nonsense, or so :)
<keescook> so, pitti, I'm not sure how to gauge the effect, but just instintively marked it tribe-2.  feel free to adjust it.
<pitti> ok, so not being 'critical' seems to be justified then
<shawarma> When is the Tribe-2 freeze anyway?
<pitti> next Tuesday
<Keybuk> shawarma: usually Tuesday
<shawarma> Oh, ok.
<pitti> I'll send a pre-announcement tomorrow
<ogra> i'm not sure how the edubuntu CDs will look wrt ltsp ... the udeb isnt adjusted for the new ltsp stuff yet
<ogra> and i had no time ot do a test install yet
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> sounds like we have a hold on that one
<Keybuk> PAM is very old (blocking at least AppArmor PAM module) -- keescook
<Riddell> some stuff with new apt for adept still need juggling about but it whould be fine in time
<keescook> there was discussion in Debian to get PAM up to 0.99 after Etch.  This hasn't happened yet, and blocks at least the AA pam module.
<ogra> Riddell, btw since gutsy-changes doesnt work ... i added a kubuntu theme to the new ldm today :) would be nice to get some default icons for the menu functions
<Riddell> ogra: ooh, will take a look
<keescook> I've seen other mentions of other pam modules (ldap, etc) wanting 0.99, but I'm not sure what their state is.
<pitti> ogra: oh, so it's not just me
<keescook> does anyone else have any need for 0.99 PAM?
<Keybuk> what's new about it?
<mvo> Riddell: it seems like its working here locally, its just that xipian is blocking libept 0.5 afaics
<pitti> keescook: TBH, that doesn't sound like a terribly good idea for tribe-2, unless we can be really sure to not break stuff?
<keescook> pitti: sure, I didn't mean it for tribe2, I just wanted to bring it up for discussion.  should agenda items be limited to tribe-2 stuff?  i'm still new to the distro team.  :)
<pitti> keescook: no, that's fine
<keescook> Keybuk: it has a mess of additionally support utilities, headers, etc.  supposedly makes PAM modules easier to develop.
<pitti> keescook: I just wasn't sure whether you meant 'upload the stuff tomorrow' :)
<pitti> since this seems to be very intrusive, the best time would be right after tribe-2
<keescook> yeah, no way, just curious if anyone had looked at PAM or needed 0.99 too.
<pitti> for maximum testing exposure in gutsy without breaking the next alpha
<Keybuk> pitti: though the point of the alpha is to get the maximum testing
<shawarma> Keybuk: But surely only testing of things we're reasonably sure works?
<Keybuk> otoh, it's hard to test things that won't build
<calc> Keybuk: if pam breaks though can't test too much
<pitti> Keybuk: right, but not exactly breaking it totally maybe?
<shawarma> I'm guessing it'll take a while to merge a new pam package. I think I remember the ls of paches-applied/ was about an xterm full.
<Riddell> mvo: that should be sorted now, maybe debtags needs given back so it can get installed
<Keybuk> ok, sounds like we have a plan; keescook, can you put together a migration plan and post to ubuntu-devel if it's difficult; and a rationale of why we need it
<shawarma> So getting it in before Tuesday is going to be a stretch. Getting it in *and* doing just a bit of testing before tribe is... not likely to happen, I think.
<Keybuk> we can continue the yes/no discussion there easy enough
<mvo> Riddell: ok, cool
<Keybuk> Release readiness update -- pitti
<keescook> Keybuk: okay, the rationale is not very high, that's why I wanted to bring it up -- it sounds like I'm the only one interested in it.  :P
<pitti> so, there are still a couple of tribe-2 bugs
<pitti> I have some questions about some of them
<pitti> #109320: evms blocks access to disk devices: evms is in universe now, is this still critical/tribe2? if so, is anyone working on it?
<Keybuk> I must admit, that I haven't touched either of my tribe-2 bugs
<Keybuk> since we're still waiting on Upstream to finish playing
<Keybuk> we need to somehow uninstall evms from people's machines who had it installed since warty
<pitti> since we kicked it out, I guess we can remove the milestone, but I wanted to know whether anyone loves evms so much
<keescook> if evms is in universe, and I go cripple xmms to get it into universe, that means we can lose gtk1 too.
<Keybuk> tollef does, but he's not here, so let's move on quickly before he's summoned :p
<Keybuk> keescook: WIN!
<pitti> keescook: right, I wanted to ask about xmms, too :)
<pitti> ok, I'll kick that then
<pitti> related to this:
<pitti> #105936: snapshot creation failure race "in use: not deactivating": keescook, you said that this doesn't happen any more? Keybuk, I understand that this is part of a major redesign work, so this might not actually happen for tribe-2?
<Keybuk> pitti: it does happen, just verrrrrrry rarely
<keescook> pitti: got time after meeting to discuss xmms?
<Keybuk> and not on kees' computer
<ogra> keswhat wuld you want to criplle on it ?
<ogra> *cripple
<pitti> keescook: yes, please let's
<Keybuk> basically it only happens if I put a sleep (30) in one bit of code
<Keybuk> but that's still not fixed enough for me
<Keybuk> so yes, I plan to fix this harder
<pitti> keescook: we have xmms2 in binary NEW, too :)
<keescook> heh
<Keybuk> pitti: oh, and I've asked mvo to ask seb to throw the compiz switch for tribe-2
<pitti> Keybuk: but it doesn't sound OMG enough for me to tribe-2, unless you suddenly found a spare day to work on this? :-)
<keescook> ogra: to get it into universe, I need to drop xmms-flac which is built from "flac", main.
<Keybuk> just for fun
<pitti> Keybuk: yeeeearrrgh
<pitti> :)
<keescook> ogra: so, basically, xmms loses flac file support
<Keybuk> pitti: you'll like it :p
<pitti> although, admittedly, compiz was *much* less evil yesterday (I tried it again)
<keescook> ugh.  does compiz tell me my xterm size yet?
<dholbach> apart from wnck and my terminal-shortcut it works nicely for me
<mvo> yeah, repeat after me: compiz is good
<pitti> I just couldn't resize windows on the window edges
<Keybuk> keescook: yes, enable the resizeinfo plugin
<Keybuk> mvo: in fact, that one should be on by default
<keescook> \o/
<shawarma> keescook: We could also be really evil and yank the headers out of xmms, put them in th flac package and put the binary package in universe, and be done with it?
<mvo> keescook: there is a info plugin for this
<Keybuk> (since it's new since we made the plugin list)
<mvo> Keybuk: I can arrange this
<Keybuk> dholbach: oh, my terminal shortcut worked just fine
* mvo puts it on the list of default plugins
<Keybuk> after I fixed the terminal-command setting
<keescook> shawarma: if that works, that's great.  I just didn't have any luck making that happen.
<ogra> shawarma, thats what i thought
<pitti> Keybuk: so, #105936 to tribe-3?
<dholbach> Keybuk: aha?
<Keybuk> pitti: please
* dholbach tries that
<pitti> #121441: mysql-server-5.0: "replace" binary man page is non-free: mathiaz, is that in the works?
* Keybuk has been using compiz (plus fusion plugins) as his primary window manager for weeks now; I'm happy with it
<Keybuk> and that is a big milestone <g>
<shawarma> keescook: Oh, you tried that already? Hm.. I could give it a go at some point.
<mathiaz> pitti: I filed a bug with debian
<pitti> mathiaz: has it always been like that, or is this something new?
<keescook> shawarma: well, I didn't try xmms headers into flac, but I tried flac into xmms.
<mathiaz> pitti: the man pages also have the copyright notice
<heno> pitti: just found that today
<heno> affects feisty too
<shawarma> keescook: Ah.. I think my approach is a lot easier.
<pitti> mathiaz: so, as a temporary fix those could just be dropped?
<heno> so we should look at an SRU
<shawarma> keescook: And hence more likely to succeed. :)
<bryce> Keybuk: will the switch include logic to not turn on where compiz won't be supported (fglrx?)
<keescook> shawarma: agreed.
<pitti> heno: right, except that we cannot really change the package in the release
<mathiaz> pitti: well - that means shipping mysql without the man pages
<Keybuk> bryce: if you can work with mvo to get that done in time
<shawarma> mathiaz: Is it *all* man pages?
<pitti> mathiaz: where did they come from in edgy?
<mathiaz> shawarma: most of them
<shawarma> ffs..
<pitti> mathiaz: can we ship them at all? or just not under GPL?
<mathiaz> pitti: they are not under GPL
<shawarma> mathiaz: Not at all, I beliave.
<shawarma> pitti: ^
<ogra> mathiaz, split them out
<pitti> mathiaz: right, I mean, are they redistributable in the first place?
<shawarma> pitti: The license says you're not allowed to change them, afair.
<heno> man mysql is non-GPL for example
<ogra> mysql-doc and mysql-doc-nonfee
<mathiaz> pitti: it'S the same reason why debian stopped shipping the manual
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<pitti> if so, then we could just ship it in multiverse
<pitti> shawarma: ok, that's good enough for multiverse; so we are allowed to ship them unchanged
<shawarma> pitti: Ah, right.
<mathiaz> pitti: ok - so we could ship the man page in mysql-doc-nonfree
<pitti> heno: that sounds too complex for an SRU TBH
<heno> ok
<pitti> mathiaz: right; want to look into that?
<mathiaz> pitti: yop
<pitti> mathiaz: thanks
<pitti> #119075: Root password policy for mysql: shawarma, did you hear any progress from Debian about this? what's the status on this?
<pitti> that one really worries me
<pitti> shawarma: can we talk about it after the meeting in #u-devel?
<shawarma> I haven't taken it up with the debian dudes, yet.
<shawarma> pitti: Sure.
<pitti> #112994: java plugin does not work: asac, you grabbed this, but bug trail makes it unclear whether it's firefox' or java's fault
<asac> pitti: i just updated it
<pitti> but it doesn't sound like being a real tribe-2 blocker
<asac> pitti: and set to triaged
<asac> pitti: its basically a drop of legacy mozilla-firefox folder(link) that causes this ... plugin links need to be readjusted
<asac> pitti: i can do the upload ... but would like to ping doko first.
<pitti> asac: if that patch is everything needed, it sounds it could make it to tribe-2 very well? especially since it's not on the CD?
<asac> pitti: yes ... it should definitly be done for tribe-2
<pitti> asac: thanks
<pitti> #119341: glxinfo command causes Xorg to abort on Dimension E520: bryce, you milestoned this, but it does not seem a super urgent thing, since it is not even reproducible?
<pitti> and (let's timeshare the channel a bit)
<pitti> #118745: default desktop/panel menu font sizes too small; IMHO we should really revert the current hack of changing font sizes and revert to fixed 96 DPI until X is sorted out; dholbach, WDYT?
<bryce> probably not
<bryce> pitti: yeah I could not reproduce it, so need to investigate a bit more
<fabbione_> sorry.. adsl did shake...
<dholbach> pitti: I'd prefer to hear seb128 on that
<bryce> there is an upstream bug I found with the same backtrace
<pitti> bryce: it has an upstream bug, so let's just wait for upstream then? fine with moving the milestone?
<bryce> yup
<pitti> dholbach: ok, he'll be back tomorrow, right? #u-desktop tomorrow?
<pitti> ok, thanks guys; sorry for being a nuisance
<pitti> Keybuk: I'm done
<Keybuk> good-o
<dholbach> pitti: yep
* heno hugs pitti
* dholbach hugs pitti
<Keybuk> heno: Schedule developers for the next few Bug Days: UbuntuBugDay/Schedule
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Schedule
<shawarma> I'm planning on putting out a call for server bug triaging, so I'll probably be hanging out there.
<pitti> heno: it would be nice to mention the bug day's topic/focus there, so that we can subscribe when we actually have some competency to weigh in
<shawarma> Where server bugs means "bugs in apache, mysql, openssh and that sort of thing".
<heno> shawarma: cool, just pick a day and sign up
<heno> pitti: suggestions are welcome
<heno> I'd rather do it the other way around
<shawarma> Oh, the bug days are specialised nowadays?
<pitti> right
<heno> that those who want to join can pick the topic
<pitti> makes sense
<shawarma> Wicked. Sign me up for Wednesday.
<heno> shawarma: they don't have to be
<heno> looks like we have a topic for next week :)
<shawarma> \o/
<bdmurray> maybe each mentor could pick a query of bugs to work on?
<heno> mathiaz: can you make it then as well?
<mathiaz> heno: no. I'll be offline that day.
<mathiaz> heno: (travelling)
<heno> ah, ok
<dendrobates> I'll be there Wednesday.
<heno> dendrobates: cool, so that's well covered
<heno> ok, everyone knows the URL now, feel free to sign up later
<Keybuk> ok, cool
<Keybuk> any other business for today?
<Riddell> Keybuk: could you give back debtags
<Keybuk> I don't have buildd access these days
<mvo> There are still some open merges left and today debianimportfreeze
<Keybuk> there are, but the number of open merges is low enough not to worry I think
<Keybuk> we've never hit zero
<pitti> Riddell: I can
<mvo> ok
<Keybuk> if anyone wants to pick them up and do them, that's ok
<calc> i'm working on merges as well
<Keybuk> but we seem to be in a pretty good shape ABI-wise
* mvo will spend some time tomorrow on merges
<calc> need some done for my motu app
<ogra> does anyone know anything about the status of gutsy-changes ?
<Keybuk> ogra: dunno
<calc> mvo: i'm primarily working on universe merges right now though
<ogra> i pinged in #c-sysadmin but got no answer ... seems there were no mails since yesterday night 0:30 UTC
<Keybuk> that sounds very much like an LP change
<Keybuk> did the magic mail headers change, I wonder
<pitti> ogra: I pinged Celso, but was directed to the list masters
<Keybuk> that's about the time they did the rollout
<pitti> changelog-closes-bugs is broken as well, I filed a bug
<ogra> seems there were two rejeted mails from gutsy-changes-owner to -motu
<ogra> this afternoon ...
<pitti> <cprov> pitti: ouch, source are being escaped from closing-bug-code because they are being published in upload-time ...
* mvo got some reject mails too
<pitti> whatever that means
<shawarma> :) YEs that sounds a bit cryptic.
<bdmurray> pitti: is the changelog-closes-bugs being broken worth announcing?  will may bugs not get closed due to changes.
<pitti> bdmurray: https://bugs.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/121606, FYI
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 121606 in soyuz "changelog-closes-bugs does not work any more since today's rollout" [Critical,Triaged] 
<pitti> bdmurray: hm, indeed, sending it to u-d-a@ cannot hurt
<shawarma> Does anyone know why we still keep the kbd-chooser source package?
<shawarma> (It's in universe)
<pitti> Riddell: debtags is dependency wait, nothing to give back
<bryce> shawarma: wouldn't surprise me if it's just legacy
<Riddell> pitti: ok, that should be sorted out now but maybe something is still holding it back, I'll work it out
<pitti> Missing Dependencies:  	libept-dev (>= 0.5.2)
<pitti> libept-dev | 0.4.7ubuntu2 |         gutsy | amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
<shawarma> bryce: Possibly. It hasn't been touched since edgy.
<Riddell> pitti: ept was waiting on xapian, which I promoted to main today
<Riddell> maybe I did the promotion wrong
<Keybuk> ok, we're wandering around other topics now; so let's adjourn and let those who don't want to stay up and play leave
<Keybuk> thanks all
<pitti> right
<bryce> cya!
<pitti> cheers to all
<asac> thanks all
<dholbach> thanks all
<kwwii> thanks
<mvo> good night!
<mathiaz> thks. see ya.
<dendrobates> bye-eee
<agoliveira> bye all.
<heno> 'night
<asac> night
<pitti> libxapian-dev |    1.0.1-1 |         gutsy | amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
<pitti> Riddell: ^ that looks fine
<evand> shawarma: iirc cjwatson just hasn't gotten around to dealing with it.
<mvo> could someone with archive-admin powers check compizconfig-settings-manager in binary NEW please?
<pitti> Riddell: libept built everywhere except sparc
<pitti> mvo: can do
<shawarma> evand: Well, since it was demoted to universe in the good ol'e edgy days, it can't possibly be in use in the installer.. What else could possibly have any use for it?
<evand> we don't have any use for it
<mvo> thanks pitti
<shawarma> evand: Hm... Oh, maybe there's something in the seed changelog.
<shawarma> "remove kbd-chooser from installer (superseded by console-setup)"
<evand> indeed
<ogra> tha was feisty already, wasnt it ?
<shawarma> Edgy
<shawarma> :)
<ogra> ah, even older :)
<shawarma> Time flies when you're having fun.
<ogra> heh, yes
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-22
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
<n3t0> sfair, \o/
<Vorian> aloha
<S1NGH> :)
<useResa> S1NGH, Hi
<S1NGH> How are you Resa?
<useResa> Fine and you
<S1NGH> great, all ready?
<Vorian> we have what, 40 min?
<useResa> Of course a hello to everyone else
<S1NGH> yes Vorian
<Vorian> hoe gaat het useResa?
<Vorian> :)
<useResa> Goed ... Nederlander?
<Vorian> no
<Vorian> American :)
<useResa> Then your Dutch is very good
<Vorian> I though everyone knew that :)
<Vorian> the "how are you" i meant
<Vorian> because I'm really terrible at Dutch
<useResa> Well it's the first time I'm confronted with a Dutch greeting, but sure makes me feel welcome
<Vorian> :)
<S1NGH> Who's in California now?
<bashelier> @schedule california
<bashelier> doesn't work :/
<bashelier> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 23 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 21:00: Technical Board
<Vorian> @shedule los angeles
<bashelier> @schedule California
<bashelier> @schedule Los angeles
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 23 Jun 13:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 08:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 05:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 12:00: Technical Board
<bashelier> Vorian: ^
<bashelier> ;)
<fernando> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 23 Jun 17:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 12:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 09:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 17:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 16:00: Technical Board
<Vorian> if i only knew how to spell
<bashelier> fernando: are you a candidate for next CC ? :)
<fernando> bashelier, no =)
<bashelier> fernando: why not ? you have uploaded severall packages :)
<fernando> bashelier, i'm not need to be a member to help ubuntu =)
<bashelier> fernando: I see, that's true :)
<Vorian> fernando, but don't you want the free car?
<Vorian> :)
<theforkofjustice> hiya S1NGH
<S1NGH> hiya
<theforkofjustice> not started yet i see. good
<S1NGH> you made it in time
<S1NGH> 27 mins
<useResa> theforkofjustice, hi
<theforkofjustice> hi resa
<theforkofjustice> S1NGH is also here
<S1NGH> we met ^^
<useResa> Glad you could make it.
<theforkofjustice> ah
<theforkofjustice> thunderstorm was a bust
<useResa> Does this mean it is over now
<theforkofjustice> yep
<PriceChild> what's over?
<useResa> theforkofjustice, S1NGH: I have visitors coming over so I may not be able to attend the entire meeting. Glad you guys are here.
<theforkofjustice> thunderstorm in my area
<theforkofjustice> rest assured we got this
<S1NGH> Resa, don't worry
<S1NGH> Atlantis finally landing eh
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 13:00 UTC: Community Council | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<MikeB-> afternoon all
<ubuntugeek> howdy mike
<S1NGH> good evening Mike
<vorian_> hello MikeB- :)
<bapoumba> Hello MikeB- :)
<ubuntugeek> I got a feeling its just us attending from the FC today
<SD-Plissken> Hello MikeB-
<theforkofjustice> hello
<Vorian> Ok
<useResa> hi ... good evening for me ;)
<Vorian> Its time for another Jam Packed full o fun FC meeting!
<Vorian> here's the agenda in no specific order
<Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=475469
<ubuntugeek> great!
<MikeB-> you think 2 out of 5 is for any anything we need to do today
<SD-Plissken> Roll Call Vorian?
<Vorian> who's here?
<Vorian> ty SD-Plissken :)
<ubuntugeek> mikeb: i think we'll be ok
<Vorian> terrific :)
<n3t0> ubuntugeek, pvt?
<Vorian> First off, we have some introductions of some new staffers.
* HymnToLife hides
<Vorian> hehe
<ubuntugeek> Al-rightly lets get this train moving along.. Welcome to our new staff members partisanEntity, hymntolife, bodhi.zazen, hikaaricore and Saphira
<Vorian> Welcome to the team guys :)
<bapoumba> welcome everyone !
<ubuntugeek> glad to have you on the team..
* SD-Plissken Clear the yellow line new fish coming through
<ubuntugeek>  /start watches the tumble weeds.. /end
<Vorian> lol
<Vorian> ok then
<ubuntugeek> heh
<SD-Plissken> Who's on first?
<Vorian> HymnToLife is the only one here right now
<theforkofjustice> What's on second
<Vorian> next up
<Vorian> Forum Code of conduct change
<Vorian> Amend the document to include a statement about duplicate accounts. Duplicate accounts should be merged with the original account.
<Vorian> ubuntugeek
<ubuntugeek> Yep
<ubuntugeek> People dislike our no name change policy and then create duplicate accounts. We should merge the new accounts with their old ones, we got rules for a reason.
<ubuntugeek> +1 from me
<MikeB-> +1 here
<bapoumba> +1
<Vorian> +1
<HymnToLife> that's even more work for us, bapoumba will not be happy
<SD-Plissken> +1 for merging dup accounts.
<HymnToLife> but +a too
<HymnToLife> err, 1
<bapoumba> HymnToLife, eh eh :)
<SD-Plissken> Do we notify members of the merging?
<bapoumba> HymnToLife, that's work for the admins ;)
<ubuntugeek> heh well its probably a rare occasion we will catch them, normally its the trouble makers and it becomes pretty apparent..
<bapoumba> ubuntugeek, sometime members do it to change their forums nick
<bapoumba> because they want a new one
<gnomefreak> some of us dont remember how many accounts we have set up :(
<SD-Plissken> Sounds like a BS excuse
<HymnToLife> well, since creating a new account is obviously against the rules, just delete the new one
<HymnToLife> and warn the old :p
<gnomefreak> SD-Plissken: no really in last 4 years i dont remember
<ubuntugeek> Yeah.  we don't allow them to change their nick. It makes it harder to track down issues.
<gnomefreak> <<< should be the only one but really dont remember
<ubuntugeek> I think it will be on a case-by-case unless I decide to purge the user database someday :)
<bapoumba> gnomefreak, the only time we check is for trouble makers, or when users ask for a nick change, and create a new one
<ubuntugeek> anyways..
<gnomefreak> bapoumba: ah ok ty
<SD-Plissken> Well if you get a notice saying your accounts been merged then you know you have more then one gnomefreak. lol
<ubuntugeek> :)
<gnomefreak> :)
<Vorian> OK
<Vorian> LFC folks
<Vorian> you are up
<Vorian> Linux for Clinics has requested to have their forum section re-opened
<HymnToLife> well
<SD-Plissken> Why?
<HymnToLife> why was it closed in the fisrt place ?
<PriceChild> don't you already have one elsewhere?
<SD-Plissken> Why do they want it open again?
<theforkofjustice> nope old one is gone for good
<theforkofjustice> the UF one will be our permanent official one
<SD-Plissken> And what is the proof that it will stay that way?
<useResa> Our request can be reread here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=462233
<ubuntugeek> MikeB?
<theforkofjustice> the fact that it's a pain to moderate our own
<MikeB-> my only question is Linux for Clinics a pure ubuntu project?
<useResa> We can not provide proof in advance, but we have learned our lesson :(
<S1NGH> yes
<MikeB-> or a Linux in general project
<theforkofjustice> forum software is vulnerable to hacks
<ubuntugeek> I also have concern that some of the members of the LFC don't exactly have a good record on the UF
<theforkofjustice> it's wholly based on ubuntu
<theforkofjustice> who are the troublemakers uG
<useResa> Could you be more specific on the members, we have a very small (core) team left
<ubuntugeek> BigDave?
<theforkofjustice> tsk. dave dave dave
<theforkofjustice> he frustrated the ones at xmod too
<SD-Plissken> All it takes is one so that saying goes
<theforkofjustice> he's not a major part of the project
<theforkofjustice> more like a hanger-on that help out
<theforkofjustice> i'm pretty certain he has not signed up to do anything
<theforkofjustice> he originally joined as a forum mod only to make his own form of mod-free forum
<useResa> The thing is we can not speak for him, all we can do is ask him to behave when and if he represents the project
<theforkofjustice> although he really wants to participate i'm not sure what good he is
<ubuntugeek> I am just curious, why should we reconsider allowing your forum to be hosted again when you posted pages of hate  on mod-free when we changed our 3rd party policy?
<theforkofjustice> he's not a project admin thats for certain
<useResa> I think it is fair to say that the members currently attending did not do such thing.
<MikeB-> I'm ok in re-opening the LFc section, but would like to see how thing go before allowing any LFC to mod that area
<useResa> I think the current people attending are also the ones that actually care for the project and want it to succeed
<theforkofjustice> hate?  frustration certainly. we've had to go through this process once already
<Vorian> Who is actively involved with the project useResa?
<ubuntugeek> I am -1 on this one.
<SD-Plissken> MikeB- I say give them a 90day trial run at it.
<SD-Plissken> UG 90days
<useResa> Actively are currently theforkofjustice S1NGH myself and dhalgren (but for him it is the middle of the night now)
<MikeB-> SD-Plissken, sounds like a fair idea +1 here
<ubuntugeek> -1
<ubuntugeek> I can't agree to it based on previous issues with this group.
<useResa> MikeB-, I fully support your suggestion of not letting us mod
<theforkofjustice> i'm also interested in what chaos has caused this bad blood between us
<useResa> ubuntugeek, people change ... members change ... sometimes I think one should be able to forget the past and give new people a chance
<ubuntugeek> My suggestion would be that we bring this up at the next FC meeting when more FC members are present.
<theforkofjustice> i'd like to see what broods. i don't like our project being besmirched
<Vorian> at this point its a tie, without more FC members there cannot be a resolution.
<Vorian> ubuntugeek I'll add it to next months agenda
<ubuntugeek> ok
<useResa> Could someone please indicate what our project can do to take away the bad feelings that obviously exist?
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<MikeB-> is that ok with the LFC folks for now
<theforkofjustice> can you provide me with links to the posts that caused the caution regarding LFC. I want to nip this
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<theforkofjustice> (not now but certainly sometime soon)
<useResa> Well ... it is not what we hoped for ... but as theforkofjustice also indicated ... what can we do to change the feeling?
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<HymnToLife> huh ?
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.We can make a special case and have the missing FC make a ruling via the FC mailing list if you want this expedited.
<ubuntugeek> oops
<ubuntugeek> not sure what happened there :S
<ubuntugeek> sorry
<MikeB-> lol
<Vorian> hehe
<bapoumba_> we're all getting older, oneday ;)
<useResa> well you made your point :D ... and yes please
<theforkofjustice> itchy trigger finger :)
<ubuntugeek> Anyways, if you want we can send a ping out to the FC mailing list or we can simple wait until next month. I am not comfortable without more FC weighing in on this.
<S1NGH> UG, we can understand what might have happened with your and previous members of Ubuntu Forums and the LFC project, but along with time people do change, and as theforkofjustice indicated, BigDave isn't really fully on the LFC project
<theforkofjustice> yes. please expedite
<ubuntugeek> Ok
<ubuntugeek> I will send out an email
<useResa> Since our posts ran of the screen quickly ... if there is anything we can do to take away the bad feeling that exists ... please let us know
<ubuntugeek> email sent to the list, i'll let vorian know and he can update the meeting notes when a conclusion is made
<Vorian> ok
<S1NGH> We have had many delays with the project with past situations/issues, it would be greatly appreciated by the LFC staff if we could amicably resolve any issues arising with us asap
<theforkofjustice> and do let us know about run ins that rub you the wrong way
<useResa> Just for my information ... is the decision then final our can we react to the decision?
<useResa> error ... our should be or
<theforkofjustice> i get a creepy feeling that dave has been responsible for most of those ill feelings
<ubuntugeek> If you wanted to press the issue you could at the next FC meeting if its denied.
<PriceChild> theforkofjustice, not just bigdave
<useResa> Thank you for informing
<S1NGH> btw: who are the other "troublemakers"
<useResa> One of us as well?  That is theforkofjustice, S1NGH  or myself
<theforkofjustice> i remember asking for some minimal mod powers but not much else
<ubuntugeek> resa: just curious are richbarana and rattleviper part of your project?
<theforkofjustice> rattlerviper (charlie) isnt any longer. rich was never a part
<useResa> No, neither of them. Rattlerviper has disappeared and Rich never was
<useResa> theforkofjustice, types faster obviously
<bapoumba_> brb
<theforkofjustice> booyah :)
<Vorian> anything else w/ LFC?
<theforkofjustice> anything?  just the forum.  only reason why were here :)
<Vorian> :)
<ubuntugeek> Ok lets move on
<Vorian> theforkofjustice, resolution is forthcoming
<Vorian> :)
<Vorian> ok SD-Plissken you are up!
<SD-Plissken> I'm up
<Vorian> MythTV
<SD-Plissken> I was only asked to put that on the list that is not project.
<Vorian> of
<Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=470328
<Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=470328
<Vorian> MythTV sub forum
<SD-Plissken> Personally I see no issue with the request, as they have no forums of their own
<ubuntugeek> It looks like a derivative of ubuntu. Is anyone form that team here?
<ubuntugeek> http://www.mythbuntu.org/
<ubuntugeek> form=from
<SD-Plissken> i feel we should defer it till superm1 can make a showing.
<Vorian> ok then
<Vorian> moved to July
<MikeB-> mythbuntu was officially approved at the last CC meeting
<ubuntugeek> Mikeb: OK then I am ok with it, that was my question +1
<Vorian> or not :)
<SD-Plissken> I must have missed that.
<MikeB-> +1 here  also, if they wanted one
<SD-Plissken> +1
<bapoumba> +1
<ubuntugeek> ok great.. I'll get it setup
<Vorian> nice
<Vorian> quick and easy
<ubuntugeek> ok great.. I'll get it setup
<SD-Plissken> Not always
<ubuntugeek> ok great.. I'll get it setupok great.. I'll get it setupok great.. I'll get it setupok great.. I'll get it setupok great.. I'll get it setup
<HymnToLife> ow
<ubuntugeek> bah
<SD-Plissken> UG your keyboard busted.
<ubuntugeek> i think my laptop is overheating :)
<MikeB-> or too much caffeine
<Vorian> last topic
<HymnToLife> or beer :p
<ubuntugeek> hah
<bapoumba> overheating is bad ...
<ubuntugeek> I'm at work, drinking isnt allowed
<ubuntugeek> :)
<ubuntugeek> Anyways
<Vorian> ForumCouncil Q&A
<Vorian> The last hour or so reserved for an open Q&A session of the Forum Council.
<SD-Plissken> Wow we underlings get to hammer the FC with questions
<SD-Plissken> lol
<ubuntugeek> I'll make a few statements..
<ubuntugeek> I have officially removed myself from the lifetime seat on the FC and will serve the same term as the others on the team.
<MikeB-> UG: should we change the forum governance wiki page to reflect that
<bapoumba> may I have a question ?
<ubuntugeek> Also, all forum assets domains, vbulletin licenses and data have been transferred to canonical.
<ubuntugeek> Mikeb: yes we should
<MikeB-> bapoumba, sure
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek, I will do that later
<ubuntugeek> Ok
<ubuntugeek> thanks
<bapoumba> are all members from all ubuntu councils on 2 years term ?
<ubuntugeek> Bapoumba, yes
<MikeB-> bapoumba, tech board is 1 year
<bapoumba> ok thanks :)
<ubuntugeek> They can serv more if re-elected if they wish.
<bapoumba> cool
<PriceChild> IRC Council will be 2 years when its created (hopefully) in a few days/weeks
<SD-Plissken> Who runs that?
<PriceChild> SD-Plissken, is that in my direction?
<SD-Plissken> Of course
<PriceChild> It will be seve.as, nal.ioth, lj.l, elk.buntu & me if no-one has any problems with that...
<SD-Plissken> Oh
<PriceChild> although I think sev.eas will be wanting to drop out after about 6 months or so...
<PriceChild> but anyway back to the FC meeting :)
<bapoumba> congrats Pricey :)
<SD-Plissken> What purpose will it serve.
<PriceChild> SD-Plissken, -> pm so as not to hijack this any longer
<MikeB-> any other question/comments for the FC
<ubuntugeek_> ..
<bapoumba> happened to me earlier ...
<Vorian> wb
<ubuntugeek_> Anything else we need to discuss?
<Vorian> nothing on the agenda
<ubuntugeek_> anyone have anything else thats not on the agenda?
<MikeB-> looks like we are good
<bapoumba> fine with me
<Vorian> thanks everyone
* SD-Plissken End Transmission
<ubuntugeek_> mike you get my msg?
<MikeB-> the email yes
<ubuntugeek_> on irc?
<MikeB-> nope
<ubuntugeek_> weird
<ubuntugeek_> :S
<ubuntugeek_> get that one?
<MikeB-> ubuntu-geek, no, very weird
<ubuntu-geek> ah because you have a -
<ubuntu-geek> in your username its being denied
<ubuntu-geek> and i had the _
<MikeB-> :)
<ubuntu-geek> any well no worries..
<ubuntu-geek> bye all
<ubuntu-geek> geesh i cant even type today
<useResa> bye and thank you for listening
<S1NGH> cya later UG :)
<MikeB-> thanks all for coming
<ubuntu-geek> see ya.. 24 hours the other FC should weigh in resa
<useResa> Thank you ... will we be informed by PM or should we just check the minutes?
<MikeB-> useResa, I will send e-mail
<useResa> Thank you ... much appreciated
* S1NGH waves farewell to everyone, byw
<bapoumba> bye everyone
<MikeB-> later all
<useResa> Bye
<theforkofjustice> hmm...i missed the goodbyes :(
<theforkofjustice> well GOODBYE :D
<PartisanEntity> hello everyone
<hikaricore> hiya
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-23
<coreymon77> is anyone here?
<Whopper> When is 13:00 UTC in EST?
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 24 Jun 06:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 23:00: Community Council | 27 Jun 01:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 06:00: Xubuntu Developers | 29 Jun 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<nixternal> 09:00
<nixternal> @schedule newyork
<nixternal> heh, that doesn't work
<Whopper> @schedule 54701
<bashelier> /quit
<bashelier> 
<juliux> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 23 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | 26 Jun 13:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 15:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu US LoCo Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 13:00 UTC: Community Council | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-24
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 13:00 UTC: Community Council | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
<greg_g> @schedule michigan
<ubotu> Schedule for US/Michigan: 26 Jun 09:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 16:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 15:00: Technical Board
<Vorian> who's here for the US LoCo Teams meeting?
<Vorian> and hello to everyone else :)
* etank is here
<Vorian> bye
<TriniTy_> salut
<TriniTy_> Ju,
<TriniTy_> t'es l ?
<Ju> oui hello !
<Ju> sur #ubuntu-fr-meeting
<TriniTy_> lol t'avais mis #ubunut-fr-meeting sur le siteeeeeeeeee
<TriniTy_> heureusement je t'ai whois :p
<Ju> ;-)
<TriniTy_> w donc quand je veux changer mes distrib
<Spec> @schedule edt
<Spec> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 26 Jun 13:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 15:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 19:00: Technical Board
<Spec> @schedule America/New_York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 26 Jun 09:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 16:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 15:00: Technical Board
<Spec> finally :p
<Spec> err, that doesn't mention the LoCo meeting today?: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
<shawarma> Spec: Maybe the loco team meeting wasn't submitted to the fridge..
<gnomefreak> the us loco team meeting was
<gnomefreak> it was on schedule a thursday for sat i think
<Spec> what meeting is taking place in an hour?
<gnomefreak> none from what fridge says
<Spec> but the wiikiii
<gnomefreak> seems there are 2 loco meetings today
<gnomefreak> maybe ubotu wasnt updated since seveas is gone
<gnomefreak> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<Spec> seveas is gone?
<gnomefreak> yes
<gnomefreak> month or so been gone maybe 2 weeks now
<Spec> why'd he leave?
<Spec> oh, gone for a month?
<Spec> so that's georgia us loco meeting and catalan loco team?
<Spec> the wiki seems to imply it's a generic all-loco team meeting
<gnomefreak> yes both seem to be today
<gnomefreak> Spec: not sure about that
<popey> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 26 Jun 13:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 15:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 19:00: Technical Board
<ompaul> Spec, he will be back, he is gone for $time very suddenly he had to run
<amachu> hi
<amachu> be back in 20-25 min
<amachu> :-)
<Spec> kjcole: i don't know why i'm still awake.
<flint> Kevin, you're killing me...
<flint> kjcole, ...my life is a living hell...
<flint> ...I am getting coffee...
<elkbuntu> Ok, who is here for the LoCo Teams meeting? (that it seems didnt get on the fridge :-/)
<flint> elkbuntu, it was on the fridge.
<elkbuntu> flint, it was? it's not in the topic here. i guess ubotu is b0rked
<seele> seele (Celeste Paul)
<flint> elkbuntu, well it was on the wiki... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
<elkbuntu> flint, yes i know that much. i put it there :
<Spec> it's not on the fridge....two loco meetings are on the fridge
<flint> seele, mille gratzie
<Spec> (which ubotu also didn't pick up)
* kjcole is here for the LoCo meeting.
<flint> elkbuntu, do not be bitter, I can do that for you.
<dthacker> dthacker  Dave Thacker-Nebraska Team
<elkbuntu> flint, im not bitter, just disorganised
* kjcole is Kevin Cole, Washington, DC LoCo Team
<dthacker> elkbuntu: welcome to my world....
<elkbuntu> dthacker, haha!
<flint> I announce myself here as the rep from Vermont Area Group of Unix Enthusiasts (VAGUE)
<elkbuntu> ok, i guess we shall start. latecomers can read logs and join in when they manage to get their disorganised butts into gear
<elkbuntu> So, general issues?
<flint> dthacker, hey Dave!
<elkbuntu> does anyone have a general LoCo team issue? (with the LoCo project or the running therof)
<kjcole> FYI to all who might not have noticed (like me): This meeting likes MootBot which I hadn't encountered before.  See:
<kjcole> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<flint> elkbuntu, the issue of loco recognition should be deligated by counrty.
<elkbuntu> flint, what do you mean by that?
<flint> elkbuntu, the hell that the DC loco had to go through with the loco central in London should not be repeated.
<elkbuntu> flint, and what hell was that?
<Spec> flint: we were a special case due to the fact that we were formed before much of the LoCo Team rules & guidelines were in existance.
<Spec> elkbuntu: pleny of hell
<flint> my motion is to declare the ability for the country amalgamated locos to recognize any local country based loco.
<kjcole> More purgatory (or limbo) than hell. ;-)
<flint> any seconds?
<elkbuntu> can someone explain what happened, because at the moment i've got no idea what happened
<flint> Ah Melissa with the handle you are using i thought you were Jeff Elkner, my sincere apologies...
* myriam_rs is here from Swiss LocoTeam
<kjcole> elkbuntu: Early on, I went to the CC for approval, and thought that I had obtained it.  A year later, someone got miffed and said we weren't an approved team
<elkbuntu> kjcole, how long ago was this? (the original CC thing)
<kjcole> elkbuntu: and we had to start over again, defending ourselves to the CC after having held several events, etc.
<flint> The DC Loco was the first formed.  A bureaucracy grew up at cannonical/ubuntu in london which did not "recognize" our group as part of the "council"  thus there was a show vote.
<flint> The whole thing stank of procedure for procedures sake, and I feel that each country should be able to recognize local locos for goodness sake.
<flint> seconds?
<elkbuntu> flint, the concept of approved teams is for Canonical to distinguise between us
<elkbuntu> flint, please stop calling for seconds, I am chairing this meeting
<flint> ok. no harm intended.
<flint> the point of country based approval seems like a reasonable request.
<kjcole> elkbuntu: (I went to the council after flint handed the reigns of the LoCo to me.  He was the original LoCo guy before me when he moved from the area.)
<elkbuntu> as i was saying, it is for Canonical, the 'bureacracy' you mention, to distinguish between active/approved teams, so they can better judge where to trust resources to
<flint> I am merely suggesting that peers within a country can also make that determination and that this matter should be delegated to that level.
<elkbuntu> Canonical trusts the CC and more recently Jono, to judge which teams are active and therefore trustworthy
<Spec> What resources(other than CDs and serverspace) does/can Canonical provide for LoCo teams?
<mc44> elkbuntu: its the CC, not Canonical who distinguishes :)
<elkbuntu> mc44, it is, but it is for Canonical's sake, mostly
<flint> mc44, excellent point...
<mc44> right
<flint> elkbuntu, merely food for thought madame chairperson.
<flint> I am getting coffee.
<dthacker> brb, dog wants in....
<elkbuntu> the only country that has a splintered loco is the US. It would be highly unfair to allow a decision to go through to allow the US LoCo to decide to approve the state teams. As it is, the US already has as many teams as South America, and each of these US teams is already entitled to Canonical sponsored benefits.
<Spec> elkbuntu: Is there a list of said benefits?
<seele> i dont know why the number of teams matter, especially if we have active members to support them
<elkbuntu> Spec, it was revised at the most recent Dev Summit, let me drudge up the link
<kjcole> For the DC LoCo, the issue with the CC is water under the bridge, at least as far as approval goes.
<seele> the US has 300 million people, it seems silly to have a single loco for it
<dthacker> Spec: mailing lists, forums,
<flint> elkbuntu, true, VAGUE may choose to participate as a loco, DC is again a first, but a pattern emerges...
<kjcole> However, to me "Local
<kjcole> and "Community" have a very different meaning than "Country".
<elkbuntu> seele, India has over a billion people
<seele> yeah.. and they should be able to have regional LoCos too
<kjcole> seele, agreed
<flint> elkbuntu, and India's local councils will need to have this authority delegated, and quick.
<myriam_rs> seele: +1
<elkbuntu> kjcole, that may be so, but if we splinter LoCos to the point of cities, then Canonical is either going to go bust trying to support them all, or reduce LoCo allocations to like 10cds
<kjcole> CoCo's and LoCo's
<myriam_rs> India for instance even has many different languages
<flint> I do not even want to think about China, the Peking loco opened with 5,00 members.
<elkbuntu> flint, India doesnt have the same 'problem' working together as the US does
<Spec> elkbuntu: If the LoCo's are using and effectively distributing Ubuntu CDs to lots of people in each individual city, where does the problem lay?
<seele> elkbuntu: what do you mean by that?
<flint> elkbuntu, and Vermont is noted for its ability not to play well with the other states, but that is another matter...
<elkbuntu> seele, the US team has splintered into many state and sometimes city teams.
<_kjcole> Elkbuntu, definitely hard to sustain. ;-)  In an ideal world, we'd all be good little communists and find ways to contribute some
<Spec> What cities have thier own team?
<seele> yes i know that.. but other than vermont, who isnt playing nice
<dthacker> may we get back on track please.  This issue is delegaton of approval.  We could have an entire day discussion on scope
<elkbuntu> Spec, Chicago
<seele> Spec: i think there are some "clubs" but i dont know of any official locos
<_kjcole> financial resources to the collective. ;-)
<seele> chicago is an official loco?
<amachu> hi everyone
<myriam_rs> elkbuntu: I can understand states teams to be officialized, but cities is questionable also to my perception
<Spec> elkbuntu: How should we cooperate and organize with other LoCOs in the United States?
<elkbuntu> dthacker, and unfortunately it is not one that *anyone* here has jurisdiction to decide
<flint> seele, wait a second my friend I speak for flint, not for Vermont.
<seele> sure
<myriam_rs> why not approve state teams and thei handle cities teams themselve?
<elkbuntu> I recommend that this be taken to the Community Manager, and if need be the CC
<Spec> State teams should be responsible for the teams that form in cities....
<elkbuntu> but go through the Community Manager first
<dthacker> elkbuntu: then the question becomes. how do those concerned get their concerns heard by the CC?
<flint> does anyone but me see the wisdom of country delegation?
<Spec> dthacker: attend a CC meeting
<popey> i dont see the need personally
<_kjcole> (But DC's not a state: Taxation w/o Representation. ;-) )
<seele> lol
<flint> _kjcole, DC is in fact a military district....
<Spec> The DC team obviously should represent all of US. <hides>
<dthacker> Spec: LOL
* elkbuntu blows the "OFFTOPIC" horn
<flint> Spec, you are on the slippery slope...
<Spec> No, but seriously, elkbuntu, citi-LoCo-groups should be controller by the State LoCo (exception: DC), who do we take that to?
<dthacker> flint: it sounds like you need to email Jono
<Spec> controller, controlled, whatever.
<elkbuntu> Spec, this is out of my control. Take it to Jono, please.
<popey> sounds to me like creating an unnecessary hierarchy
<popey> what is the problem you are trying to fix flint ?
<Spec> popey: s/fix/create/
<flint> popey, the issue that every loco must go throught what I witnessed the d
<flint> DC loco going through.
<flint> popey, it was not pretty.
<popey> thats one loco
<Spec> So, since we've decided that we're talking about thigns we can't change - next topic, elkbuntu?
<flint> popey, it was the first loco
<dthacker> agreed,  this goes to jono, next topic?
<popey> dthacker: +1
<Spec> Why isn't jono here? :p
<elkbuntu> next topic is Software Freedom Day :D
<elkbuntu> Spec, he's in transit from somewhere to somewhere else afaik
<amachu> elkbuntu: we formed a team yesterday
<Spec> haha
<elkbuntu> plus, it is a weekend
<flint> elkbuntu, thank you for your time and consideration.
* highvoltage can't wait until SFD again
<elkbuntu> amachu, cool.
<popey> elkbuntu: i registered the UK team
<elkbuntu> oh actually... were there any other concerns before we launch into SFD goodness?
<popey> no clue what we will do tho :)
<Spec> So we get free schwag from Canonical for SFD?
<amachu> schwag??
<popey> cds
<amachu> ok..
<_kjcole> DC LoCo has done the past two, and gotten a wee bit of help, and plan to do a third.
<elkbuntu> Spec, indirectly. You get free swag from SFI, which is plyed by canonical
<Spec> http://softwarefreedomday.org/
<dthacker> elkbuntu: my mailing list is attractin a lot of spam.  Is there anything I can do or request be done?
<elkbuntu> dthacker, talk to the sysadmins
<amachu> from the sfd site.. it appears that we will get it from SFD bith Ubuntu & OpenCD
<_kjcole> amachu: Swag (Schwag), stuff handed out at conferences to advertise and gain loyalty: CD's, T shirts, pens, stickers, balloons,
<Spec> Is there any general structure to SFD, or is it just what the LoCo's make it out to be?
<myriam_rs> elkbuntu: and what is SFI?
<elkbuntu> myriam_rs, Software Freedom International
<flint> how about making one of those goofy SFD across the planet type movies?
<popey> Spec: there are guides of the site
<Spec> And is there any reason we would want to cooperate with other US, or other Country's LoCo's for SFD?
<elkbuntu> myriam_rs, there is a wikipedia page that lists the board
<myriam_rs> elkbuntu: thanks
<elkbuntu> Spec, cooperate in terms of sharing ideas, the same way LoCos share ideas :)
<amachu> ok
<popey> i would recommend joining the SFD lailing lists
<Spec> Well, if states are close enough they can make a really big SFD
<Spec> ie: VA/MD/DC all got together
<_kjcole> So, in the interest of sharing: The DC way = pairing up with a local library that collects books from the community to distribute for free.
<elkbuntu> yep. and contacting organisations that may be able to 'sponsor' in the form of brochures and other fun stuff
<dthacker> dthacker is trying to get an exhibit at the local uni...
<amachu> yep
<elkbuntu> I have managed to coerce a package of coolness out of RedHat for example
<_kjcole> It becomes a "Free Books, Free Software" event, but then we explain the "Freedom" part of "Free".
<elkbuntu> not sure what is in said package yet, but im sure it will be cool
<Spec> elkbuntu: for your loco?
<flint> Spec, how about the reason to cooperate is that the US has  a brilliant Texan leading us from the White House :^)  the new ubuntu multimedia cd might help produce such a thing.  Red hat might help with any costs...
<elkbuntu> Spec, for the SFD event where i am
<popey> elkbuntu: how do you deal with organising an event for such a large loco such as -AU or -UK ?
<popey> or do you do multiple events?
<popey> delegate?
<elkbuntu> flint, you are being sarcastic, right? :
<elkbuntu> popey, we do multiple events
<elkbuntu> popey, (in aus)
<flint> elkbuntu, whatever gave you that idea...  LOL
<flint> ROLF
<Spec> rolling on laughing floors.
<elkbuntu> rofl
<amachu> elkbuntu: in Log i did find some words about India
<amachu> ?
* elkbuntu really did LOL
<flint> can't type laughing too hard.
<Spec> kjcole: trying to contact organizations for swag/support in our area?
<elkbuntu> amachu, ah, i was using India as an example of a large loco that hasnt splintered as much as the US has
<flint> elkbuntu, the cool thing about a distributed multimedia event is that this frames the issues for all to see for the next year.
<_kjcole> Spec, have been busy trying to deal with the (dying) FOSSED conference.
<amachu> elkbuntu: ok
<Spec> elkbuntu: We should have one website/page/wiki-page to journal our adventures on SFD (from all around the world)
<flint> Spec, Excellent start!
<_kjcole> Spec, SFD's web site used to have such a beastie...
<Spec> elkbuntu: who would be responsible for setting that up?
<Spec> the 'archives' is seriously lacking
<Spec> oh, maybe not, i was in wrong section
<elkbuntu> Spec, you mean on softwarefreedomday.org? I believe someone lost some data since last year or something
<Spec> oh, ok
<Spec> yeah, these aren't journals of events
<Spec> kjcole: how far is hampton, va from us?
<Spec> elkbuntu: SFD is sponsored in part by Canonical, right?
<flint> Spec, about 3 hours
<kjcole> spec, you're asking a non-driver?
<flint> ogra, hello Ollie!
<elkbuntu> Spec, yes. but not 'owned' by
<ogra> hey hey
<elkbuntu> hey oli
<kjcole> ogra, hey long time no chat.
<ogra> yeah
<popey> elkbuntu: they wipe the site each year
<myriam_rs> hi ogra :-)
<Spec> elkbuntu: We should find a way to ensure all LoCo teams have registered for SFD on sfd.org
<flint> ogra, you missed my rap on national determination.... it was a beaut.
<popey> they dont lose it, they deliberately wipe it
<elkbuntu> popey, aha
<ogra> hi myriam_rs :)
<dthacker> ubuntu-nebraska needs bodies for SFD, so I contacting the LUG, the perl-mongers, the python-LUG,  and any other bunch that might help
<popey> (which is dumb IMO)
<flint> popey, that is why i like the "day" movie idea, we made a python movie and the damn thing is still around after five years.
<elkbuntu> Spec, the aim isnt to make sure every LoCo registers, just to make sure loco teams are encouraged to participate
<amachu> gud
<elkbuntu> most SFD events are LUG based, not LoCo based
<Spec> elkbuntu: by encouraging them to register, it encourages them to participate, right?
<Spec> I don't see why we shouldn't make it a mandatory thing ^.^
<amachu> Spec: not nessesary that it has to be LoCo
<Spec> I know, but it should be necessary to participate in SFD if you are a LoCo
<Spec> or at least pretend to participate.
<amachu> Spec: it can be the LUG & the LoCo Combination too
<amachu> LUG might have registered and the LoCo can join hands
<elkbuntu> but making sure LoCos partipate is important. LoCo SFD teams as opposed to LUG SFD teams face alienating potential helpers
<Spec> The requirement of one event(SFD) each year to be a LoCo isn't an outrageous one.
<flint> elkbuntu, getting over the LUG - LOCO dichotomy is a necessary prelude for this thing.
<kjcole> BTW: Since SFD is not Ubuntu specific, a nice intro to Linux can be found at http://www.getgnulinux.org/
<elkbuntu> Spec, you cannot force volunteers to do anything
<kjcole> (Though it's not specifically a Linux event either.)
<elkbuntu> kjcole, exactly
<elkbuntu> my aim in pestering about SFD is to *encourage* LoCo people to participate in the day at a LUG level
<Spec> So do we have any printable literature directly from Canonical?
<Spec> elkbuntu: yes...so what's the best way to accomplish that?
<elkbuntu> Spec, ask for a conference pack
<Spec> kjcole: ^^ :D:D:D
<elkbuntu> Spec, by talking about it in your LoCo, asking who is helping which LUG
<Spec> Ok, so we'll try to contact the 10 or so LUGs in our area
<dthacker> kjcole: bookmarked, thanks
<Spec> Any advertising for the event comes out of our own pocket, yes?
<dthacker> Spec: try the perl-mongers too
<elkbuntu> Spec, by logic, those 10 or so LUGs probably already have people in your LoCo
<amachu> mmm..
<Spec> elkbuntu: you would think so, but i don't think that's the case.
<elkbuntu> Spec, you need to put a call out to the lurkers on your loco mailing list ;)
<elkbuntu> Spec, i think you'll find there's a wider spread than you think
<dthacker> question: is the Ubuntu book available as a PDF?
<amachu> mm
<elkbuntu> dthacker, iirc. no idea where
<flint> dthacker, the concept of free software packaged in a proprietary format warms my heart...
<dthacker> flint: my sarcasm detector is going off again
<flint> dthacker, hehe
<Spec> flint: wget ubuntu.exe
<kjcole> Spec, advertising, banner, registration fees at events, have been coming out of jelkner's pocket and mine.  Not enough to break the bank, but like Canonical
<kjcole> it's not self-sustaining in the long run, w/o income.
<Spec> Well, I was thinking more of how are we going to accomplish mass-advertisement of SFD.
<elkbuntu> kjcole, you can always ask them. at worst, they'll say 'no', but at least you will have tried
<dthacker> see I have this wacky idea to send out CD's to local teachers, but I want to include the book.  And I can't afford 50 copies of the book
<Spec> Like getting the local Career Center to make a Video-Advertisement for SFD, and then somehow getting local cable company to run the ad on public television....how feasable is that?
<elkbuntu> Spec, i dont know, try it and let us know
<kjcole> We were thinking of putting out a hat/jar for contributions at events...
<Spec> elkbuntu: what about trademark?
<flint> Spec, so we need a movie.  Think about SFD as an annual thing. We need to plan for a future, or SFD will not have one.
<Spec> would canonical need to authorize our ad?
<elkbuntu> Spec, mail trademark@ubuntu.com if you're unsure
<Spec> flint: can you browbeat D.Welsh to get a 60-120 second (ingenious!) advertisement?
<kjcole> elkbuntu, since Canonical has already provided us CD's and other materials, I don't want to keep hitting them up for stuff.
<elkbuntu> Spec, or, join #ubuntu-marketing and wait for gerry (probably in the midst of a nice weekend atm, so wait until tomorrow ;))
<Spec> #ubuntu-marketing? :p
<popey> i doubt you will get much from canonical other than CDs/stickers
<Spec> popey: uhh
<popey> otherwise they would logically have to do the same for _all_ LoCos
<Spec> popey: i get free software from canonical all the time as well :)
<popey> which would cost them $$
<flint> Spec, those would be the hardest 60-120 seconds you ever got involved with...
<elkbuntu> popey, still, it never hurts to ask
<Spec> flint: That's why I asked you to do it.
<kjcole> The movie idea could be really great: If different LoCo's agree on a similar quality/format for a video, and someone could edit them together...
<Spec> Well, if other people (not necessarily us) come up with an advertisement,
<Spec> we could just pass around the one video and try our hardest to get it on local tv channels
<Spec> If all the LoCos helped out, we might get some half-way decent coverage
<flint> kjcole, it is applying the process of distributed programming to multimedia.  I feel like Eric Raymond...
<flint> :^)
<kjcole> Watch it everyone! Flint has a gun.  ;-)
<kjcole> Duck!
<flint> kjcole, ouch!
* elkbuntu toots the "OFFTOPIC" horn again
<dthacker> the cathedral and the bizarre
<Spec> bazaar
<elkbuntu> take advertisement creation discussion to your LoCo channel or #ubuntu-marketing please
<Spec> ok! next.
<elkbuntu> ok, i think we've discussed sfd enough, im going to revert back to the first item and ask if anyone who has joined since that discussion if there's any issues that need advice
<Hobbsee> elkbuntu: can i have a pony?
<Spec> No, Hobbsee! elkbuntu can't have a pony!
<elkbuntu> Hobbsee, steal mneptoks
<Spec> hmm, that went wrong.
<flint> kjcole, thanks for inviting me to this meeting (yes Melissa, this is Kevin's fault, and he may do it again :^)
<Hobbsee> elkbuntu: ooh, there's an idea
<dthacker> the pony ran off when elkbuntu blew the offtopic horn
<flint> thanks and later..
<elkbuntu> dthacker, it can tolerate mneptok, it can tolerate a horn :
<dthacker> hehe
<elkbuntu> Ok, i think that means we're done...
<amachu> hey.. we would like to have the Ubuntu Derivate Team going
<amachu> :-(
<elkbuntu> amachu, that is outside the loco scope, i'm afraid. while loco relevent, out of our control.
<amachu> elkbuntu: ok
<kjcole> Good chatting with you all...  (I guess we
<dthacker> amachu: is there a team set up?
<kjcole> (I guess we're NOT using MootBot after all...)
<Spec> kjcole: indeed we're not :)
<amachu> dthacker: nope.. it started and stopped in between
<elkbuntu> amachu, see the PM
<Spec> kjcole: now get to work! *whipcrack*
<amachu> :-(
<amachu> PM?
<elkbuntu> amachu, private message
<amachu> ok
<kjcole> Are we ajourning?
<elkbuntu> kjcole, unless you have another genuine matter, yes
<kjcole> s/ajourning/adjourning/
<kjcole> OK.  Later all.
<elkbuntu> thanks for coming everyone
<Spec> elkbuntu: When is the next LoCo meeting?
<dthacker> elkbuntu: this time works for me, hope it works for non-us teams.....
<elkbuntu> Spec, when i announce it :)
<kjcole> (Most excellent time for me...)
<elkbuntu> Spec, i think i'm going to aim for monthly, since fortnightly doesnt bring alot of discussion
<Spec> elkbuntu: sounds good
<elkbuntu> dthacker, this is the most encompassing time I could find
<amachu> okie
<dthacker> sounds good
<dthacker> monthly that is
<amachu> it works fine for us
<Spec> for US.
<Spec> I wonder if we could reserve the DC Mall for SFD
<elkbuntu> Spec, worth trying. One thing some teams found useful was to dress young kids in tshirts that say 'I'm not scared of Open Source' and have them trot around handing leaflets out
<mc44> exploiting children! zomg :)
<Spec> woohoo!
<elkbuntu> mc44, damn straight
<Spec> i don't know, the DC mall is pretty damn big
<Spec> the logistics of operating a SFD would be mind boggling...unless we had the full support of all the LUGs in our area
<Spec> and, of course, the government.
<elkbuntu> Spec, the worst you can get is a 'no', in which case you move on to plan b
<kjcole> Spec, I think you've been drinking flint's Free Beer.
<elkbuntu> try the local library, see if they'd be willing to let people congregate on the lawn or in the foyer
<Spec> kjcole: how hard could it be?
<Spec> to drink the free beer, that is.
<elkbuntu> anyway, anyone interested in SFD can move their talk to #sfd :)
<Spec> 'k, laters.
<kjcole> And, with that, I really do think I must be going.  Someone record whatever happens on #sfd
<kjcole> and perhaps send out an e-mail...
<kjcole> Ta-ta.
<greg_g> @schedule Detriot
<greg_g> @schedule Detroit
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 26 Jun 09:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 16:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 15:00: Technical Board
<greg_g> I always do that
<myriam_rs> @schedule Zrich
<myriam_rs> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 26 Jun 15:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 21:00: Technical Board
<Ju> @schedule Los_angeles
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 26 Jun 06:00: Community Council | 26 Jun 08:00: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 05:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jul 12:00: Technical Board
<coreymon77> hi, ive got a question
<coreymon77> is it allowed for people who are already approved members to vouch for me at the meeting? (im trying to get approved)
<ScottK> coreymon77: Is this for Ubuntu membership?
<coreymon77> yup
<ScottK> Yes.  It's normal/expected for that to happen.
<ScottK> coreymon77: It's as or more important to have your wiki page up to date and complete so the CC can get a quite/complete look at your contributions.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Jun 13:00 UTC: Community Council | 26 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 27 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 28 Jun 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 29 Jun 11:00 UTC: MOTU Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-16
<Baron1984> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5194590#post5194590
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jun 21:00 UTC: MOTU SRU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community
<popey> @schedule
<ubottu> popey: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 16 Jun 21:00: MOTU SRU | 17 Jun 15:00:  Server Team | 18 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 18 Jun 17:00: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00: Xubuntu Community
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jun 21:00 UTC: MOTU SRU | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team
<DktrKranz> !now
<ubottu> Factoid now not found
<DktrKranz> mh...
<lukehasnoname> @now
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 16 2008, 19:55:52 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<Seveas> DktrKranz, try @now :)
<DktrKranz> heh, thanks :)
<lukehasnoname> !@now
<ubottu> Factoid now not found
<ScottK> @!now
<\sh> hmm
<ScottK> Hello everyone.  I have it as time to start the motu-sru meeting.  Who is here?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU SRU | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team
<\sh> moins
 * ogra lurks
 * geser watches from the back
<TheMuso> Greetings.
 * DktrKranz is here
<ScottK> No jdong or cody-sommerville
<LaserJock> I'm stopping by and wanted to say a couple things at some point if that's ok
<ScottK> \sh, DktrKranz, TheMuso: Who is running this meeting?
<TheMuso> Do we have an agenda?
 * heno listens in
<\sh> aehm.how wanted it? :)
<ScottK> I think it was get together and make a plan.
 * sbeattie is also lurking
 * ScottK considers 4 of 6 a good quorum and suggests we start.
<ScottK> Any objections to letting LaserJock say his piece at the beginning?
<TheMuso> No.
<DktrKranz> No.
<ScottK> LaserJock: Go.
<\sh> fire away pls :)
<LaserJock> well, I wanted to just brief people on the script I've been working on
<LaserJock> in collaboration with Steve Beattie who is the Canonical SRU QA Engineer (I think that's right)
<LaserJock> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/sru/ is the current site
<LaserJock> and I've got an hourly cron job producing 3 pages
<ScottK> LaserJock: Very good work.  Particularly for someone who's taking a break from Ubuntu.
<ScottK> ;-)
<LaserJock> well, this is the *only* thing I'm doing *buntu related
<LaserJock> and it was started before I started my break
 * ScottK appreciates it.
 * DktrKranz even more
 * TheMuso  also.
<ScottK> Much easier to work from than Launchpad.
<LaserJock> so we'd like to get feedback from you guys as primary users
<ScottK> I think DktrKranz has been doing the most SRU stuff lately.
<DktrKranz> I tried to, at least
<LaserJock> the other thing is that the QA team is working on some specs related to SRU work
<LaserJock> heno and sbeattie, who are lurking ;-) are working on those specs
<ScottK> I think before we can know much about that, I think we need to talk about process for Universe.  I think it's pretty broken right now.
<LaserJock> I'd really love to see the MOTU SRU team working well with the QA team to get the consistency and quality of SRUs up
<heno> agreed
<ScottK> Perhaps one of you can tell me how we got from the old process to one where only the sru-verification team can verify a Universe SRU?
<ScottK> I've looked through the MOTU meeting minutes and can't find where that was agreed to.
<ScottK> heno: Unfortunately I think the current situation really isn't very suitable for Universe.
<LaserJock> ScottK: that's not actually true at all
<LaserJock> anybody can verify SRUs
<ScottK> LaserJock: No they can't.  Only sru-verification can tag them verified.
<LaserJock> the sru-verification team, from what I understand, is there to *ensure* that SRU (Main mostly) are done
<ScottK> At least per the written process.
<LaserJock> hmm, that's not how I read it
<ScottK> Historically that was true, but no longer.
<heno> depends what you mean by verify -- do the verification work or ack that it was verified correctly
<heno> the formed should be open to many people
<heno> *former
<LaserJock> ScottK: hmm, I can see how you could read it both ways
<ScottK> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates very clearly says it's the verification team that tags it done.
<LaserJock> it's not clear to me
<LaserJock> I read that that is their function, but not to the exclusion of other people
<DktrKranz> indeed, I've seen some SRUs (for main too) copied to -updates without a "thumbs up" from sru-verification but after a large testing by users
<LaserJock> however, the SRU page sometimes gets edited without telling people ;-)
<ScottK> Yes.  This isn't about who tests, but who can say it's good.  Although no where on that page does it actually ask for community testing/results.
<LaserJock> "Verification feedback from bug reporters and subscribers is greatly appreciated"
<ScottK> OK.
<LaserJock> though that is very far down the page
<ScottK> It also says, "The SRU verification team may also discover that your fix is good. They will: - Modify the verification-needed tag to a verification-done tag on the bug report."
<LaserJock> right
<ScottK> That's pretty clear and how I understand it's historically been done in Main.
<LaserJock> which to me doesn't exclude other people from doing so
<LaserJock> but says that there is a team in place to catch the ones that may fall through the cracks
<ScottK> That's the only step in the process where it's mentioned
<DktrKranz> well, sru-verification is not closed, someone can join in (as I did, basically to perform verifications for Universe)
<ScottK> What it appears to me happened is that motu-sru was told to go document Universe process differences and instead then just dropped them.
<ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings/2007-11-23
<DktrKranz> but it's a bottleneck, especially for universe
<LaserJock> in any case, IMO, a sru-verification team is unnecessary if SRU QA is in place
<ScottK> "The Universe SRU Policy shall be reviewed by the members of ~motu-sru, and the rationale for variations from the policy for Main will be documented."
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: what is a bottleneck? sru-verification or verification in general?
<ScottK> No where does it say go drop all the differences.
<LaserJock> ScottK: no, we decided to drop
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, having sru-verification to check bugs, IIRC it's just me who perform "regular" scan in universe packages
<ScottK> Who and when?  Such a decision is not documented?
<ScottK> LaserJock: ^^^
<LaserJock> ScottK: the MOTU SRU team did, and it'd only be documented in an IRC log I belive
<heno> IMO we don't have enough people doing verifications in main _or_ universe so pooling those (testing) teams would be good
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: well, I totally ignored it
<ScottK> LaserJock: I don't think the MOTU SRU team had that authority.  They changed something that affects all of Universe without asking anyone else.
<LaserJock> ScottK: umm, yeah, it was our authority
<ScottK> From where?
<ScottK> The MOTU Meeting minutes say document the differences, not remove them.
<LaserJock> by virtue of being the MOTU SRU team
<DktrKranz> heno, having hug days targeted to SRU verification?
<heno> DktrKranz: that'd be good!
<ScottK> LaserJock: I disagree.  We've had a policy for quite some time now that process changes get decided by MOTU.
<LaserJock> sru-verification team should most likely go away
<LaserJock> ScottK: no, we don't
<LaserJock> we have a process of letting relevant teams make decisions
<LaserJock> not nit-picking every single policy change
<heno> pedro has been doing both bug days and universe verification - he could probably set that up
<ScottK> I think motu-sru decide how it wants to make it's decisions, but not to change overall process that affects everybody.
<ScottK> LaserJock: So far we're down to one person focused on Universe who can verify SRUs.  That's no nit picking.
<LaserJock> no, it's not
<TheMuso> I think this all came out of the idea that we wanted to allign ourselves with the process for main somewhat more, and so it was decided that our process was as close to main as possible.
<LaserJock> that's utterly untrue
<LaserJock> *anybody* can verify an SRU
<ScottK> LaserJock: That's not what the wiki page says.
<LaserJock> yes it is
<LaserJock> though I agree that it's unclear
<LaserJock> but the operational reading of that, IMO, has been that anybody can verify
<ScottK> LaserJock: OK.  I don't think it's at all unclear and I don't think that's what it says.
<LaserJock> then change it
<LaserJock> no biggie
<ScottK> Can anyone mark an SRU verified or just MOTU?
<LaserJock> *anybody*
<ScottK> heno: Is it OK per process if I mark a Main SRU with the verification done tag?
<LaserJock> if it's badly marked MOTU SRU or pitti will pick that up
<heno> ScottK: if you feel qualified, yes. it still needs to be let through by an archive admin
<\sh> hmm...anybody with bug powers can mark an SRU verified, even if it's the worst nightmare ?
<heno> that's where the real gatekeeping happens
<ScottK> OK.  Then I think the wiki page needs a lot of work on that because I don't see that at all as written.
<heno> \sh: why would you do that just for fun?
<ScottK> heno: We have people with Launchpad accounts we definitely don't want marking verification done.
<heno> generally it's only done by the QA in practice
<sbeattie> note that even if a good verification has been done and tagged, a package may not necessarily get moved into the archive if it's felt that more test usage is needed to catch any regressions.
<\sh> heno: oh...not just for fun, but because I know at least one person without a clue but thinking he does the right things, even if he didn't ...
<\sh> heno: and believe me, 1+n with n <3 want to play gatekeeper for crap
<\sh> archive admins I mean
<heno> so in MOTU the tag triggers the upload basically?
<DktrKranz> heno, if a user publishes a clear verification (by attaching screenshots, terminal logs, and so on), I'd say it's ok, taggind and stating "works for me" is somewhat "incomplete" to me
<LaserJock> ok, hang on a sec
<LaserJock> 1) I've not seen any badly tags SRUs
<LaserJock> 2) The MOTU SRU team and the archive team can both easily revert the tag
<LaserJock> if something looks phony, revert it
<LaserJock> not a problem
<ScottK> I don't think anyone is aware they are allowed to tag.  I certainly wasn't.
<heno> yeah, trying to restrict tag use isn't practical
<ScottK> Unless I misunderstood DktrKranz last week, he joined sru-verification because he thought he had to to tag stuff verified.
<LaserJock> hmm, I was just doing it, naughty me ;-)
<\sh> because tasks and tags are two different things...but work tasks we don't have in LP ;)
<DktrKranz> ScottK, basically yes
<LaserJock> ok, so my suggestion:
<LaserJock> 1) edit SRU page to be clear about who can use tags, etc.
<LaserJock> 2) discuss with Ubuntu SRU and QA team about eliminating sru-verifcation team
<LaserJock> IMO, we're developing QA tools that should obsolete the sru-verification team
<ScottK> Makes sense.
 * DktrKranz agrees
<sbeattie> LaserJock: heh, sru-verification is the subscriber that I'm querying off of.
<DktrKranz> we're moving in the right direction, and we have some good tools already
<ScottK> While we can't restrict tag use formally, I do think a motu/core-dev ought to sign off on a verification.
<LaserJock> sbeattie:  that's why we need to "discuss"
<LaserJock> ScottK: well, Ubuntu Archive does that
<\sh> LaserJock: who is "we"? and which QA team? ubuntuwire or canonical qa?
<ScottK> LaserJock: The archive admins don't scale very well.  I think developers ought to do the initial verification.
<heno> \sh: there is an Ubuntu QA team too ;)
<LaserJock> ScottK: well, MOTU SRU can always do it
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, I think we should take more responsibility and leave a-a just administrative tasks, not verification ones
<LaserJock> heno: no there isn't, last I looked
<heno> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<heno> we have weekly meetings here
<ScottK> LaserJock: I agree we can do it, but I don't think we should be a choke point on the back end of the process.
<LaserJock> \sh: sbeattie and I at the moment, hosted on ubuntuwire and eventually on qa.ubuntu.com perhaps
<LaserJock> heno: if it doesn't have an LP it doesn't exist ;-)
<LaserJock> ScottK: well, I'd say go easy on it and re-evaluate after a while of processing perhaps. My experience is that people flipping the tag is the least of the problems
<heno> LaserJock: you can discuss these things with a team of people, not an LP team ;)
<LaserJock> heno: you don't know who to talk to if there isn't an LP team
<LaserJock> heno: especially when there *is* a Canonical LP team
<ScottK> LaserJock: I really don't want to write down a process that says it's OK for someone like Kmos to set an SRU to verified.
<LaserJock> ScottK: why not?
<LaserJock> it's easy to change if it's wrong
<ScottK> Only if the archive-admin catches it.
<LaserJock> it much easier to let the 99.9% good stuff go through unhindered then block all 100% because of it
<LaserJock> ScottK: but MOTU SRU is there the whole time
 * \sh 's wife will kill him...
<ScottK> Any SRU has a MOTU that sponsored it, so they should be able to follow-up on the verification.
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> I just don't think it needs to be limited
<LaserJock> but I'm not on the team anymore so ... :-)
<\sh> ScottK: and the sponsor is mostly not sitting in the SRU team
<ScottK> Exactly.
 * ajmitch reads the scrollback & tries to catch up
<\sh> ajmitch: simple workflow matters ;)
<DktrKranz> \sh, when sponsors do sponsoring :)
<ajmitch> \sh: sure...
 * ScottK has ~10 minutes until he goes.
<LaserJock> overall I think the current process is good
<LaserJock> but the SRU page needs to be fixed
<\sh> DktrKranz: if they have the guts to sponsor SRU..which could harm their powers
<ScottK> I think the current process only worked because virtually no one knew about it.
<LaserJock> 1) doesn't tell people they need to wait for MOTU SRU ack
<LaserJock> 2) doesn't describe versions well
<LaserJock> 3) needs to be more procedural. i.e. answer "I want to submit and SRU, how do I do that?"
<LaserJock> ScottK: enough people knew about it to create a lot of SRUs
<LaserJock> and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't scale decently well
<LaserJock> IMO the biggest missing piece was good tracking, and I think we're going to get that handled much better
<ScottK> It's the verification part I'm talking about.
<DktrKranz> it's not that hard to have a SRU in -proposed, the hard part is having it in -updates
<ScottK> LaserJock: I do think your script is a big step forward.
<LaserJock> yes, well the nature of many Universe SRUs doesn't lend themselves to ready verification
<LaserJock> lot's of weird, specific cases where something fails
<ScottK> DktrKranz: You've the most recent experience with the process.  Would you be up for drafting a proposed update to the wiki?
<slangasek> fwiw, I do share ScottK's concern that ubuntu-archive shouldn't be trying to judge whether the person setting the verification-done tag is qualified to do so
<DktrKranz> ScottK, if we motu-sru can work on it to have a good candidate, sure
<ScottK> I'll be glad to help.
<ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
<LaserJock> slangasek: for sure
<LaserJock> my point is that the subscribers and MOTU SRU all get bugmail
<ScottK> True.
<LaserJock> and lastly Ubuntu Archive
<LaserJock> *somebody* is going to catch a bogus verification change
<ScottK> Hopefully.
<slangasek> LaserJock: but not necessarily before the archive admin du jour does the copy to -updates?
<slangasek> LaserJock: does there need to be a minimum review period between setting the tag and copying the package?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> it's whenever pitti gets to it
<LaserJock> we already have a 7-day aging in -proposed
<\sh> because pitti doesn't scale..
<LaserJock> pitti scales just fine
<LaserJock> this is really not a bandwith-heavy process
<LaserJock> it just requires people paying attention to it
<DktrKranz> pitti is doing a *huge* job, anyone subscribed to sru-verification can confirm
<slangasek> but the bug may be unverified for 8 days, then be marked "verified" by someone not qualified to know, and the copy happens right after that without review?
<ScottK> slangasek: Yes.
<DktrKranz> if we can help it to just doing archive admin task, it will be good
<slangasek> fwiw, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration#head-18b6747493b60de8de4b4ceaef46ac8e705d3231 suggests that copying packages to -updates is part of the archive team's duties, not just pitti's :)
<LaserJock> slangasek: yep
<DktrKranz> it/him
<ScottK> This is why we really need to minimize what the archive-admins have to face.
<LaserJock> slangasek: sure, pitti's just the one that does it
 * ScottK needs to go.
<ScottK> Read you all later.
<LaserJock> the archive-admins don't have much to face
<LaserJock> there's a lot to do, for sure
<\sh> ok...i don't get it...
<LaserJock> but like I said, I've never seen a bogus verification
<\sh> we have a queue of let's say 7 to 8 days in -proposed
<lukehasnoname> later ScottK
<\sh> after that period, someone tags it as "verfied" and A-A of the day just copies it from a to b ..
<\sh> now, for user x * 1000 this update make things worse
<\sh> because unknown master of puppets set the flag of "yeah it works"?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> it needs to be in -proposed for 7 days *and* have 2 + acks and no -'s
<LaserJock> and the whole time multiple people are watching it
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, mh... sometimes not
<LaserJock> so I'm fairly sure within reason people catch all the problems
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: that's failure in executing the established process, not failure in the process itself
<DktrKranz> exactly
<DktrKranz> we should enforce it
<LaserJock> but MOTU SRUs job is to make sure that the process is exectuted correctly
<DktrKranz> sometimes motu-sru is hijacked, rare cases, but it happened
<LaserJock> so, as long as that's happening, and MOTU SRU has the tools it needs then all is good
<LaserJock> well, then MOTU SRU needs deal with that
<geser> if a package in the -proposed queue doesn't get confirmed for 7 or 8 days, then either a) there was a communication problem or b) the package is less used
<LaserJock> well, currently we have form 0 days to 80+ days in -proposed
<LaserJock> *from
<DktrKranz> geser, users think about -proposed as a "regular" repository, if a package works, that's enough
<heno> having many more people use -proposed would help because we would catch the worst breakage -- thousands would be good
<DktrKranz> my experience is only 5% commented on bugs
<LaserJock> heno: I disagree
<slangasek> geser: ehm, do you want me to count the bugs on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html for hardy/universe that haven't bee confirmed yet after > 10 days?
<LaserJock> heno: I don't think -proposed should be just "enabled"
<LaserJock> I'd much rather have links to .debs in -proposed
<heno> if just 1% of those who run the devel releases ran -proposed we'd be doing well
<DktrKranz> heno, if we suggest to enable it, we should be prepared to another X breakage
<DktrKranz> and we need to have -proposed-proposed :P
<TheMuso> I don't think proposed should be enabled by default at all.
<heno> DktrKranz: people are prepared for that on the devel release
<LaserJock> I don't think proposed should be enabled for general users, ever
<heno> TheMuso: no clearly not
<TheMuso> Particularly since there is the occasional big update, i.e alsa-lib for hardy, that is likely to break things for users, and unless they know how to downgrade again, its somewhat unsafe.
<geser> slangasek: I just looked at the page. I didn't expect to see that many "main" packages with > 10 days in the queue.
<sbeattie> LaserJock: I don't think we want all users to run -proposed, but we do want far more power users to use it.
<heno> obviously, neither should the devel release ...
<LaserJock> sbeattie: we can't control that
<slangasek> geser: in the case of hardy/main, many of them are d-i components that couldn't be tested at all until just recently
<LaserJock> with the devel release, when something breaks we say "well, you were warned, tough luck"
<LaserJock> with -proposed we lose testers, and reputation because we told people to enable it
<heno> LaserJock: right we should warn people
<sbeattie> what heno said.
<LaserJock> if you turn -proposed into essentially the same as devel then you lose a lot of people
<heno> but if the same people ran it they would know the risks
<LaserJock> well, that does make some sense for common Main packages, I admit
<heno> LaserJock: that's not what we're suggesting
<LaserJock> but it makes little sense for many Universe packages
<LaserJock> because you *have* to know the test cases anyway
<heno> just that people with the same risk awareness run it
<LaserJock> so you just enable -proposed as a convenience
<LaserJock> which opens up your testers to potentially hundreds of new packages
<DktrKranz> when people enable -proposed, they catch almost everything because version is bigger than stable release, if we could tell "ok, this is a proposed upgrade, install it for testing purposes", it should be better
<LaserJock> when they only want/need to test one or two
<\sh> heno: you just made a distinction between common world users who just want to use something which is broken, and the hard boiled egg sysadmin who knows what he does...
<heno> LaserJock: you have to know the test case to verify the fix but not catch severe regressions
<\sh> heno: regarding d-i examples of slangasek, yes, the sysadmin will do some testing
<LaserJock> heno: which is really and odd thing
<LaserJock> we aren't looking for sever regression!
<\sh> heno: regarding simple tomboy nobody will test this, because they just want to use it.
<LaserJock> we are wanting to verify that an SRU fixes what it's supposed to fix
<geser> would a apt pinning like debian backports or debian experimental help so people don't get all -proposed updates automatically?
<slangasek> there was discussion recently on ubuntu-devel about how best to enable -proposed
<LaserJock> just enabling -proposed does *nothing* towards that
<slangasek> I still think that apt pinning + update-manager support is the best solution
<heno> but the bad regressions are the thing we really worry about, so 'just using' is helpful
<LaserJock> geser: I would be for that
<LaserJock> slangasek: agreed
<LaserJock> heno: again, only for a certain class of SRUs
<DktrKranz> I agree with slangasek
<LaserJock> evolution for instance
 * \sh needs to read the logs tomorrow morning...his wife has a knife in her hand and tells him to shut down the computer, or she will kill him...cu tomorrow folk
<LaserJock> \sh: cya
<LaserJock> ;-)
<DktrKranz> when doing SRUs, changelogs entries are "incomplete", they do not tell users which issues they are addressing, thus leaving users a doubt if a -proposed update is worth a risk for a regression
<slangasek> \sh: it's a trick, once the computer's off there are no witnesses
<LaserJock> lol
<DktrKranz> if we document better what we are addressing, people looking at -proposed from update-manager will be encouraged to test
<LaserJock> how concerned are we about major regressions outside of the kernel, X, and perhaps microrelease exception packages?
<sbeattie> LaserJock: here's an example: gnome-games had fixes for a couple of the solitaire games, but the update that was pulled in also caused glchess to fail to start.
<sbeattie> LaserJock: we didn't catch it, but upstream did, fortunately before it made it into -updates.
<LaserJock> sbeattie: right, we *should* catch that
<sbeattie> Agreed, we should.
<LaserJock> i.e. mass uploading Gnome into -updates is not high on my recommendation list
<sbeattie> How, with the resources we have, is the tricky question.
<LaserJock> well, there are a couple things
<LaserJock> 1) catch it before we release
<sbeattie> LaserJock: well, that's unfortunately out of my control, despite my agreement with that.
<LaserJock> QA before release helps a *ton* when it comes to SRUs
<sbeattie> LaserJock: point is, if you *only* went to verify the bugfixes (which is what I did), you missed that regression.
<LaserJock> 2) perhaps use a staging PPA to look for regressions
<LaserJock> yes, but my point is that is *precisely* why we have our current SRU policy
<sbeattie> I agree it would be helpful to let people pick and choose which proposed packages they wish to test.
<sbeattie> But we *also* want to tap our expert users and help us catch regressions in updates to scary packages like dpkg.
<geser> I see a problem with universe packages that only 5 people have installed and only one finds a SRU worthy bug, how will you find regressions there?
<slangasek> ask all 5 users to try it, if none find regressions, then by definition they don't exist ;)
<DktrKranz> sbeattie, what about improving https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/PerformingSRUVerification and widespread it?
<sbeattie> DktrKranz: heno and I are trying to do exactly that.
<DktrKranz> good starting point
<heno> we'll get there :)
<heno> LaserJock's tracking pages will help publicize it
<DktrKranz> as I said before with heno, having targeted days on SRUs will surely help and people could become more interested and willing to help
<heno> DktrKranz: I'll try to get one set up next week
<heno> (I'll CC you on an email)
<DktrKranz> good
<sbeattie> I wonder if there's a way we can do more targeted notifications, so we can inform those 5 users in geser's example that there's a package in -proposed that we'd like them to help test?
<LaserJock> publishing an SRU RSS feed with bug URL and test case would be good
<DktrKranz> we already have instruments (pinning a-la-debian), just lack UI
<sbeattie> LaserJock: a) heno has asked me to set that up, but b) it needs to be filterable so you don't get spammed with packages you don't use.
<geser> sbeattie: what about enabling -proposed by default so update-manager sees new packages and can notify the user. But with apt-pinning so they don't get automatically installed / marked for installation.
<sbeattie> That's a possibility worth exploring.
<heno> hm, I'm worried about people agreeing to install by accident
<LaserJock> sbeattie: does it need to be filtered?
<DktrKranz> I fear users will be tempted to install *everything*, we should document changes better at a first glance, as for security updates, for instance
<heno> it should be strictly opt-in
<geser> it would also help if update-manager didn't mark all -proposed packages for upgrade by default. /me has used some time to uncheck all -proposed updates when using update-manager and wanted only some from -proposed (e.g. firefox 3.0)
<heno> perhaps an installable notification applet
<LaserJock> well, why not do both ways
<LaserJock> 1) allow people to just enable -proposed as now, these are the bleeding edgers looking for regressions
<DktrKranz> update-manager do distinction between security and updates, why not adding a third type "proposed/testing packages" ?
<LaserJock> 2) in an SRU tracker set up links to .debs for people who are specifically testing a fix
<geser> isn't there one? I remember seeing one the last time
<geser> DktrKranz: ^^
 * DktrKranz opens hardy VM to check
<DktrKranz> just a couple of minutes
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: it does
<sbeattie> LaserJock: re filtering: you use $EDITOR; do you wish to be notified when $OTHEREDITOR gets moved into -proposed?
<LaserJock> sbeattie: maybe, but that's the fun of RSS
<LaserJock> *we* can't tell what people want
<LaserJock> so we let them intelligently filter themselves
 * heno wanders off for the night; it's getting late here
<heno> LaserJock: thanks for alerting me to the meeting
<heno> It's been enjoyable :)
<LaserJock> heno: thanks for coming
<DktrKranz> gnight heno, please keep me informed if you plan to do some hug day, I'll be happy to help :)
<DktrKranz> hah, late :P
<TheMuso> heh
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, could you point us to some specs related to QA SRU you talked earlier?
<sbeattie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/fix-validation-tracking is one
<DktrKranz> mh, it seems we ran out of topics :)
<DktrKranz> should we summarize and go to bed?
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: yeah, I thought you already did
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> it seemed to me the broad topics were:
<LaserJock> 1) "fixing" and clarifying the SRU policy wiki page
<LaserJock> 2) tracking SRUs and what tools are needed
<LaserJock> 3) how to get verification done better
<LaserJock> sound about right?
<DktrKranz> perfect
<DktrKranz> I'll give a first try at 1)
<LaserJock> I'm working some on 2)
<LaserJock> and I think 3) needs more dialog, IMO
<DktrKranz> let's do 3) with QA, maybe lurking at their meetings
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I would encourage MOTU SRU to at least lurk at QA meetings
<sbeattie> LaserJock: do you think you got sufficient input on 2)?
<DktrKranz> I will, given that timing permits it
<LaserJock> because I consider SRU to be a part of QA
<LaserJock> sbeattie: well, I'm not sure
<DktrKranz> 17 UTC... bad timing :(
<DktrKranz> I'm on my way back from office
<LaserJock> sbeattie:  there were'nt any objections though, so that's good
<sbeattie> LaserJock: just wondering if there were additional ideas (besides an RSS feed some slacker *cough* should set up) to enhance tracking.
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: can you think of any other "tool" that would help you with SRUs?
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, nothing right now, I'll think a bit about what we should have
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: awesome, thanks
<sbeattie> Was trying to figure out if there was a way to pull out who tagged a fix as verification-done out of launchpad, but I don't think it's possible. Need to dig more.
<sbeattie> Given the concerns that were raised earlier.
<DktrKranz> sbeattie, addind to bug history perhaps?
<DktrKranz> it shouldn't be too difficult
<DktrKranz> e.g. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/amavisd-new-milter/+bug/226845/+activity
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 226845 in amavisd-new-milter "amavisd-new-milter: unmet dependencies" [Medium,Fix committed]
<DktrKranz> if we can have who tagged it in there, could be enough
<sbeattie> Yeah, I don't see the tag history in there. But that would be the logical place for it to appear.
<DktrKranz> sbeattie, I'll search through malone bugs to see if there's something similar already and file a new bug otherwise
<LaserJock> the Launchpad "history" isn't always very complete
<LaserJock> sbeattie: I honestly think it's a waste of your time and cpu cycles
<sbeattie> DktrKranz: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/malone/+bug/56630
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 56630 in malone "Tag changes are not recorded in the activity log" [Medium,Confirmed]
<DktrKranz> good :)
<LaserJock> we get bugmail
<LaserJock> and if somebody is consistently abusing the tag then we'd notice
<sbeattie> LaserJock: sure, was just thinking if it was easy to pull out, it'd be easy to add as a column  to the verification-done table.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-17
<LaserJock> I tend to think the more important thing would be who did the testing
<LaserJock> it's easy for us to automatically check age and number of acks
<LaserJock> it's not so easy to judge if those acks are trustworthy
<sbeattie> Is it? Are they formatted consistently?
<LaserJock> sbeattie: when we track via qa.u.c it will be ;-)
<sbeattie> lol
<LaserJock> right now it's not totally easy, but grepping for +1, "worked for me" would give you a lot
<DktrKranz> is it "works for me" a sufficient guarantee?
<sbeattie> Anyway, more feedback on what would make the SRU pages more useful or help in streamlining the process would be great.
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: well, for lack of better formalization, yes
<sbeattie> LaserJock: my reports rarely say those things, I think.
<LaserJock> well, you used to see a lot more of those
<LaserJock> that's what our original terminology was
<LaserJock> "we need 2 'works for me's"
<LaserJock> so people would just put "works for me"
<LaserJock> that was before test cases as well
<LaserJock> which reminds me
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: an item for consideration needs to be formalizing test case formatting
<LaserJock> if the format for test cases is consistent then we can pull them out programmatically
<DktrKranz> and publish it in your tracker
<sbeattie> LaserJock: heh, I noticed you haven't incorporated my changes to highlight bugs that don't have the standardized test cases.
<sbeattie> (at least in the published pages)
<sbeattie> DktrKranz: exactly.
<LaserJock> sbeattie: yeah, my weekend didn't go as planned
<LaserJock> sbeattie: hopefully this evening
<DktrKranz> given that someone forgets about test cases (and /me needs to figure out how to test them), it will be of sure help
<LaserJock> the goal for me with the tracker scripts
<LaserJock> is to make it easy to see when something isn't conforming to policy
<LaserJock> so then it's trivial to fix it
<sbeattie> LaserJock: well, I didn't get to writing the code to pull them out and display them this weekend, either.
<LaserJock> sbeattie: slackers!
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, would it be too much complex to scan for "ACK" text posted by a member of motu-sru?
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: I was thinking about that
<LaserJock> I'm going to try to do it
<LaserJock> hopefully it won't have to many bas results
<LaserJock> *bad
<LaserJock> generally I think we've been pretty consistent with using ACK
<DktrKranz> usually, "ack from motu-sru" is posted
<LaserJock> that was going to go into my QA page
<LaserJock> as well as bugs with SRU in the title but no MOTU SRU subscribed
<LaserJock> and probably component mismatch (sub'ing MOTU SRU for Main package)
<LaserJock> but those require quite a bit more Launchpad data
<LaserJock> so I haven't done them yet
<LaserJock> sbeattie: what do you think of ^^
<sbeattie> We could do something like that.
 * LaserJock runs to the TODO file
<sbeattie> main SRU doesn't do anything as formalized like that in our comments, we tend to describe what we did.
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, think about this case: https://bugs.staging.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/scons/+bug/226783
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 226783 in scons "Merge scons 0.98.5-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [High,In progress]
<DktrKranz> user nominate for the release, but no task opened
<DktrKranz> I've seen some of them, they should be addressed too.
<LaserJock> sbeattie: describe?
<LaserJock> well, we can't get nominations
<DktrKranz> no?
<LaserJock> but what we can do is flag SRU bugs that don't have any release tasks
<LaserJock> no, I don't think there's a programmatic way to do that, other than maybe some screenscraping
<LaserJock> and I'd really like to avoid doing that
<DktrKranz> I agree
<sbeattie> LaserJock: here's an example https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/klibc/+bug/235282/comments/7
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 235282 in klibc "Every second number disappears in (tiny) dmesg output (in initrd.img)" [Medium,Fix committed]
<sbeattie> We do get works for me reports as well.
<LaserJock> sbeattie: right, but we're talking about MOTU SRU acks
<LaserJock> though that sort of comment is why we need to use an iso-tracker like interface
<LaserJock> it's not always clear whether somebody is verifying or not
<LaserJock> like "well, I think it works for me"
<DktrKranz> I usually do something like https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+source/rpy/+bug/128180/comments/35
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 128180 in rpy "rpy import error at Gusty" [Medium,Fix committed]
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: we already have data on tasks, so I think having a list of SRU bugs without any stable release tasks would catch a lot of your nominated-but-not-accepted bugs
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, this will catch almost everything
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: I'll make that list tonight I think
<DktrKranz> good
<LaserJock> alright, well I've got to run
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: thanks for the input
<DktrKranz> well, I think I'm the only person in Europe still awake, so I'm moving to bed now :)
<DktrKranz> LaserJock, my pleasure
<DktrKranz> thanks guys for this meeting
<DktrKranz> keep up the good work and keep ROCKing
<leoquant> @schedule amsterdam
<ubottu> leoquant: Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 17 Jun 17:00:  Server Team | 18 Jun 19:00: QA Team | 18 Jun 22:00: Xubuntu Community | 19 Jun 00:00: Platform Team | 19 Jun 15:00: Desktop Team
<persia> Is the community council meeting not happening this week?
<lifeless> !schedule
<ubottu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<lifeless> ubottu: die die die
<ubottu> Factoid die die die not found
<lifeless> ubottu: Factoid die die die not found
<ubottu> lifeless: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<sbc> persia: Guess not. :(
<persia> Strange.  It is the third tuesday of the month.
<sbc> persia: Yes. On the other hand the wiki says next meeting is 3 June (two weeks ago!). The CC meetings might not be recieving top priority?
<leoquant> hmm: The next meeting is scheduled for [WWW] June 17th 2008, 18:00 UTC and and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting
<leoquant> (ref. to the community council meeting)
<Hobbsee> jussi01: looks like ubottu hasn't reloaded since you restarted the bot.
<persia> leoquant: Which meeting?
<Hobbsee> (the topic)
<Hobbsee> @no
<Hobbsee> @now
<ubottu> Hobbsee: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 17 2008, 13:48:12 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<Hobbsee> unless we have 2 bugs for hugs meetings in a few days.
<persia> Hobbsee: Bugs for Hugs days are often Tuesdays and Thursdays: all day events, but not here.
<Hobbsee> ahh
 * kirkland o/
<sommer_> hey all
<nijaba> o/
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<mathiaz> hello server folks !
<kirkland> mathiaz: howdy
<jdstrand> o/
<ScottK> Let's start already ....
<mathiaz> let's get started then
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> Last week's meeting - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080610
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] openldap 2.4 SRU
<MootBot> New Topic:  openldap 2.4 SRU
<mathiaz> openldap 2.4.9 has been uploaded and accepted into -proposed
<mathiaz> next step is to get 2.4.10 into hardy as well
<mathiaz> but we'd have to wait for 2.4.10 to be uploaded in intrepid first
<mathiaz> I don't know when this will be done - I haven't seen anything on the debian front
<mathiaz> so we may wanna upload 2.4.10 directly
<mathiaz> there is some work been done on the cn=config migration - it may land at the same time
<mathiaz> that's all I have for the openldap sru
<ScottK> I'd suggest don't sweat 2.4.10 until 2.4.9 is in hardy-updates.
<ScottK> Maybe Debian gets it done in the mean time.
<mathiaz> ScottK: for hardy - I aggree
 * sommer_ can report that 2.4.9 works fine
<ScottK> For Intrepid there is no rush.
<mathiaz> but we have some spec related to openldap for intrepid
<zul> mathiaz: I wouldnt rush with 2.4.10 since I think it has like 5 fixes
<zul> (for hardy)
<mathiaz> zul: right - I don't think we should rush either
<nijaba> zul: any reported bug that would match thise 5 fixes in 2.4.10?
<ScottK> I don't think the spec stuff needs 2.4.10
<zul> 3 of those fixes have been backported anways
<zul> nijaba: not yet :)
<nijaba> +1 on let's wait, then
<mathiaz> nijaba: right - anyway we have to get 2.4.10 in intrepid first
<mathiaz> the other interesting bit is that 2.4.11 will probably have the nss ldapd backend available
<zul> mathiaz: debian ok to the changes I have only seen one or two about it
<mathiaz> it has been commited in upstream cvs - so it should be available in the contrib/ directory in 2.4.11
<nijaba> mathiaz: yes, I think that is the one we should target for intrepid
<zul> dont forget to enable the test suite for intrepid as well :)
<mathiaz> zul: right - :)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ebox and Ubuntu centralize server administrator spec
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ebox and Ubuntu centralize server administrator spec
<mathiaz> so I was supposed to invite a bunch of people to discuss this
<mathiaz> and I haven't done so
<nealmcb> from what little I know it seems that getting folks testing the cn=config migration early would help
<mathiaz> nxvl sent me an email he wouldn't make it for the meeting
<mathiaz> he's been looking into the different suggestions (augeas, etc...)
<nijaba> mathiaz: did you have a look at augeas?  it looks likes it could be a great backend
 * nijaba realizes the colision
<nealmcb> still seems worthwhile getting the folks together to compare notes - next week?
<mathiaz> nijaba: I just rapidly looked over the website - and indeed it looks promising
<mathiaz> nealmcb: well - nxvl won't make it either
<nealmcb> the backend is indeed pretty important - and getting a common backend with both rpm and apt- centric systems would be great
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I think the big question we'd ask to the ebox developer is whether they consider switching to ageas
 * nealmcb nods
 * nijaba too
<mathiaz> nealmcb: that could probably be done on their mailing lists
<nealmcb> nxvl won't be here next week?
<nijaba> mathiaz: and/or on #ebox
<mathiaz> nealmcb: IFAIU he won't - he doesn't have access to IRC at this time of the day
<ScottK> Could we have a link for augeas?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: so I'll send an email to the ebox developer
<mathiaz> ScottK: http://augeas.net/
<zul> augeas.net
<nealmcb> ScottK: see nxvl's spec....
<nijaba> mathiaz: could we call another exceptional meeting a a time that works for nxvl on this subject?
<mathiaz> and report back their answer
<nealmcb> nijaba: +1
<mathiaz> nijaba: that would be another option - but what would we discuss
<mathiaz> nijaba: we can use his spec for more discussion
<nijaba> mathiaz: ok
<mathiaz> nijaba: we may not need a formal meeting
<mathiaz> nijaba: I think we should ask him first
<ScottK> I'd suggest getting something like that into Ubuntu for a release cycle on it's own before we try to integrate it.
<nealmcb> I see this as the broader discussion of really making u-server easy to use, which I think implies a gui, and I'd like more than just a few folks there
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to send an email to the ebox devs about augeas
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to send an email to the ebox devs about augeas
<nealmcb> ..easy to use for folks new to linux...
<Brazen> seems more geared to a home server, than an smb server, though
<nealmcb> and I think having more people behind fewer projects would be better....
<mathiaz> nealmcb: right - that's a broad topic that could be discussed for hours, if not days
<mathiaz> let's move on
<ScottK> Yes, but with volunteers, one doesn't always get the fewer projects choice.
<nealmcb> easier to use at multiple levels - both home and enterprise
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Spec status/review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status/review
<nealmcb> ScottK: sure - I'm just hoping that more cross-fertilization will help
<mathiaz> ScottK is around to ask what is targeted for intrepid
<ScottK> Yes.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: any news on this front ?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: not yet.
<ScottK> So far I've not gotten significant feedback on what I wrote up.  I don't know if anyone else is in a different position.
<mathiaz> ScottK: what's the link to your spec ?
<ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-flavors
<mathiaz> I'm planning to write another post about intrepid spec
<mathiaz> ScottK: I could include some of your specs there
<mathiaz> ScottK: it may get a wider coverage
<ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/clamav-spamassassin-in-main and https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/amavisd-dkim are trivial to implement.  I just need approval.
<ScottK> I'm more interested in dendrobates approval at this point.  For the first one manpower will be an issue, but without official backing, I'm not going to invest time in it.
<mathiaz> ScottK: if they're trivial, why not just do it ?
<mathiaz> ScottK: clamav-spamassin-in-main makes sense and was discussed at UDS
<ScottK> Because if Canonical is going to move these packages into a supported catagory, I think I need a Canonical approval.
<nealmcb> ScottK: could there be a useful connection between augeas or other gui config backends and the config part of your flavors stuff?
<ScottK> For the MIR, I want to be able to say the rationale is approved spec.
<ScottK> nealmcb: I can see where it would be potentially useful.
<mathiaz> ScottK: hm - right - having a rationale that says the ubuntu server team thinks that spamassin is usefull for our mail server and thus should be included into main makes sense
<ScottK> I think we all agree.  I just need dendrobates to flip the bit in Launchpad.
<mathiaz> Ok - so is there any other specs that are worth mentioning ?
<mathiaz> I've already got a list of kirkland's spec and some of them are alreay coming along
<zul> not me
<kirkland> mathiaz: yeah, i just started working on them, got something started
<mathiaz> I'll also mention the ldap related spec
<ScottK> mathiaz: I intend to hold off on work on those specs until they are approved.
<kirkland> mathiaz: if they don't get approved, i'll stop working on them for intrepid
<zul> Im still stuck on hardy ;)
<kirkland> mathiaz: and the framework will be there for someone else to do in spare time for Intrepid + N
<mathiaz> kirkland: great - at the least the spec are written
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Proposed ubuntu server team PPA
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposed ubuntu server team PPA
<mathiaz> zul: is your PPA getting too small ?
<ScottK> Is there a written proposal on this?
<mathiaz> ScottK: this = ?
<zul> mathiaz: well, its more of an offical/unoffical testing ppa that I can point users to rather than my ppa because mine is in a constant state of flux
<ScottK> The proposed server team PPA.
<zul> ScottK: no there isnt
<ScottK> zul: Why not just make a new one called zul-stable.
<mathiaz> zul: what would be the difference between yours and ubuntu-server ppa ?
<nxvl> is it possible?
<ScottK> Make a new Launchpad account.
<zul> ScottK: because my ppa would not be a good place to ask users to try out bug fixes
<nxvl> i think you can only use a ppa with your account name/team
<Koon> nxvl: you can have a ppa for a team in LP
<ScottK> So make a new one.
<nxvl> Koon: that's what i said
<mathiaz> zul: what would you put in ubuntu-server ppa and not in zul ppa ?
<ScottK> Before proceeding, please make sure you aren't going to flood the rest of us with mail from LP as a result.
<zul> mathiaz: widely tested bug fixes for samba for example
<nealmcb> nxvl: welcome!  We were talking before about when to schedule an irc meeting about you and ebox and server gui stuff, but thought this was a bad time for you.
<mathiaz> zul: isn't that what -proposed is for ?
<zul> mathiaz: true but that can take a couple of days to get in
<nxvl> nealmcb: it is
<nxvl> nealmcb: but, i'm breaking some rules in here
<nxvl> :D
<nealmcb> :)
<ScottK> zul: I feel pretty strongly that PPA shouldn't be used for anything other than transitional testing of packages sign the releases files aren't signed.
<nxvl> nealmcb: there is no proxy or security system that can control a geek
<mathiaz> zul: but in zul ppa there is broken stuff ?
<zul> mathiaz: its not fine polished before it gets uploaded to -proposed, its more of a staging area
<mathiaz> zul: currently I see one package in zul ppa
<mathiaz> zul: I don't see what we would gain by adding a ubuntu-server ppa
<zul> mathiaz: thats because I deleted alot the other day
<zul> mathiaz: fine with me, just an idea to throw it out there
<mathiaz> zul: well - I'm not convinced of having yet another place to publish packages
<ScottK> zul: I'd suggest just make a new LP account and call it zul-working or some such and then point users at your current PPA once stuff is ready for testing.
<zul> mathiaz: cool
<mathiaz> ScottK: well - why would there be something not ready for testing in a ppa ?
<mathiaz> you're not using ppa to make sure your packages build correctly
<ScottK> I thought that was what he wanted a new PPA.
<ScottK> mathiaz: Ask zul.
<mathiaz> zul: next time you come accross a package that would require a new ppa, could you point it to me ?
<zul> mathiaz: sure will do
<mathiaz> zul: I'm interested to know when that would happen
<mathiaz> zul: and for which reasons
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] text browser on the server cd
<MootBot> New Topic:  text browser on the server cd
<mathiaz> there was a recent thread on -server and -devel about removing w3m from the standard seed
<mathiaz> the consensus seemed that w3m should be removed from standard
<nxvl> i find w3m really useful
<ScottK> We've got plenty of room on the server CD, right?
 * nijaba votes for moving it to the server seed
<mathiaz> the question is wheter we should includ it in the server seed
 * nxvl votes for it also
<sommer_> it is useful for reading the html serverguide :)
<mathiaz> or drop it from the server seed
<nijaba> nealmcb: had some interesting questions thogh
<zul> elinks is on the server cd isnt it?
 * jdstrand thinks it should be on the cd
<nijaba> elinks for example
<mathiaz> so one question: should w3m be installed by default in ubuntu server ?
<jdstrand> (or at least one text browser
<jdstrand> )
<kirkland> i believe that one of lynx/elinks/w3m should be in the default server install
<nealmcb> choice, security issues, etc.  when the network is down it is nice to not be stuck on a system without a text browser
<ScottK> It's there now.  We shouldn't remove it without a good reason.
 * Brazen thinks it should not be on the server cd
 * sommer_ concurs with kirkland
<ScottK> Why not?
<kirkland> i have stood at a console of a server, in a lab, and needed a web browser
<nealmcb> last I saw, w3m seemed best, but I heard those arguments for elinks and want to know more
<zul> the qa tests for the cd uses w3m btw
 * nijaba agrees with kirkland
 * jdstrand too
<kirkland> i did a cursory look over lynx/elinks/w3m ... w3m seemed nicest... cools, keybindings, etc.
<zul> nealmcb: elinks works with things like gmail
 * nealmcb is amazed
<kirkland> lynx is very, very basic.  elinks is a logical followon of lynx
<Brazen> It's easy enough to install with aptitude
<nxvl> yep
<nxvl> +1 for this idea
<kirkland> i definitely don't think we need more than one of those on the server by default, though
<ScottK> Brazen: That assumes a network.
<nxvl> we need a text browser and w3m is the coolest
<Brazen> ScottK: but if you think it is necessary, you can install it beforehand
<ScottK> Brazen: What benifit is there to removing it?
<nealmcb> elinks depends on libperl, liblua, libruby
<Brazen> nxvl: but you ask 3 different sysadmins which is coolest, and you get 3 different answers
<Koon> so the use case is "I need a text web browser even if the network is down", then it should be left in
<ScottK> Brazen: If I knew in advance when I wasn't going to have a network, then I'd probably do that.
<ScottK> Yes, I can read html in vim, but prefer to avoid it.
<nealmcb> do we have a sense for the security exposure and support costs of the different options?
<Brazen> ScottK: maybe I'm just a little too paranoid on security, and used the mindset that a browser is about the second worst thing to have on a server next to an X stack
<nxvl> Brazen: mm, you are right
<mathiaz> allright - so it seems that we have consensus on installing w3m by default during a server install
<nealmcb> what do other distros do?
<ScottK> I disagree.  It's only a risk if it's running and that takes an admin.
<kirkland> nealmcb: install all of X
<nxvl> r give you the option to choose package on installation
<kirkland> nealmcb: RHEL default server includes gnome + firefox
<ScottK> mathiaz: We already install it by default.  There is clearly no consensus to stop doing that.
<Brazen> as someone on the ml put it, on servers less is more
<mathiaz> ScottK: right - we're already doing it -
<Brazen> That's probably the biggest issue I have with RHEL
<mathiaz> so the next step is to modify the seed and move w3m from -standard to -server
<ScottK> Personally I'd put a web server well about a web browser in terms of security risk.
<mathiaz> nijaba: has the -server seed already been created ?
<nealmcb> kirkland: amazing....
<Brazen> kinda hard to have a server without any services though
<nijaba> mathiaz: I have made a proposal to cjwatson, wainting for his feedback
<jdstrand> IIRC w3m is not actively maintained upstream (it's been at 0.5.1 since  dapper). elinks is, but has had 3 minor security vulnerabilites in the last 2 years
<ScottK> Brazen: True, but there are lots of services that aren't web services.
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok
<nijaba> mathiaz: it includes more changes in the suported seed though
<kirkland> jdstrand: that was one of the reasons that mdz asked about removing it entirely (non-active upstream)
<Brazen> ScottK: I don't put a web service on any server that isn't a web server
<jdstrand> Brazen: I think it is entirely approriate to have software that allows you to read the manual that is mentioned in motd
<jdstrand> I'd pick elinks, but don't personally care either way
<mathiaz> ok - so to sumarize: w3m can be removed from the -standard seed and moved to the -server once it's created
<nijaba> yes
<mdz> kirkland: actually, someone else brought that up; I didn't realize upstream was in question
<kirkland> mdz: sorry, my bad ... /me goes check the thread
<Brazen> jdstrand: I would expect to be able to read the manual on a workstation, or a testing server.
<mdz> mathiaz: I think there are probably other packages which fall into this same category
<mathiaz> jdstrand: that brings up the other question of text browser in main
<mdz> I think the standard and minimal seeds should get a thorough review for things which are desktop- or server-specific
<mathiaz> jdstrand: we should only have one
<cjwatson> w3m has a pretty excellent feature set and doesn't seem to have very much wrong with it, maintained or not
<nxvl> well, need to run i have a meeting in 5 minutes
<nxvl> see you later!
 * nijaba waves at nxvl
 * kirkland changes attribution of "w3m upstream is dead" from mdz to "Steven Harms" ... sorry
<mathiaz> mdz: agreed - I looked through the seeds during the hardy cycle and nothing stood out
<mathiaz> mdz: but it wasn't with the split between desktop and server in mind
<Brazen> with all that said, I prefer lynx (just not on a production server :D )
<mathiaz> mdz: so once the -server seed is created we should defintely revisit this issue
<mdz> mathiaz: really?  I see a few more things which are questionable
<mdz> mathiaz: ntfs-3g isn't of much use on servers
<nijaba> mathiaz: as said, I have done that for supported and was planning on doing it for standard/minimal as well
<mathiaz> mdz: IIRC there was wpa-supplicant
<sommer_> don't people share ntfs mounts through samba?
<dendrobates> mdz:  I do as well.  We discussed having a review at UDS.
<mdz> inputattach says it is for serial mice
<mathiaz> dendrobates: right - has this happened ?
<cjwatson> sommer_: that use doesn't require ntfs-3g
<dendrobates> mathiaz: not yet.
<sommer_> cjwatson: yep, spoke too soon :)
<Keybuk> mdz: joysticks, isn't it?
<cjwatson> sommer_: unless you mean that the NTFS filesystem is hosted on the server itself
<Keybuk> oh, right, and legacy mice
<Brazen> I think the default server install should be more akin to JEOS (but with full hardware support) and give an option to install a set of "useful administrative packages"
<sommer_> cjwatson: that is what I was thinking, just remember some bugs about it a while back
<cjwatson> serial mice> more common on servers than anywhere else, I'd expect; ancient hardware lying around in DCs
<nealmcb> sommer_: and in that case folks can install ntfs support themselves...
<Keybuk> cjwatson: but X servers? not so common
<sommer_> nealmcb: sure, just thought I'd mention the use case
<Brazen> Keybuk: good call
<cjwatson> Keybuk: true
<Keybuk> inputattach is basically for making them visible to the X server by making /dev/input/blah devices for them
<Keybuk> I don't think gpm uses that
<mdz> cjwatson: util-linux-locales is a bit pointless in minimal, since all its files are stripped out into langpacks
<mdz> dendrobates: sorry, don't mean to hijack your meeting for a general seed review
<cjwatson> mdz: yes, it should be in supported just so that it stays in main and gets langpack-stripped
<mdz> cjwatson: and I agree with mathiaz that wpasupplicant ought to move
<mathiaz> allright - so there seems to be a need for genered seed review - which won't be finished in the next 2 minutes
<nealmcb> But I think Brazen's suggestion of e.g. a minimal server with a tasksel option for stuff like w3m might make sense
<mathiaz> so let's move on
<mathiaz> so is there any ACTION item on this point ?
<nealmcb> have to figure out what would be in the "useful admin packages" section
<cjwatson> nealmcb: the standard seed, clearly
<mathiaz> it seems that we're waiting for the creation of the -server seed
<cjwatson> (that's the obvious way to implement it right now and it's a trivial configuration change. I'm not saying I agree with it BTW)
<ScottK> mathiaz: Add w3m to the server seed when created.
<cjwatson> w3m (or generally a text browser) belongs in standard
<mathiaz> and then we'll be able to move things around (w3m being amongst the first one)
<cjwatson> IMO
<cjwatson> I would want it in desktop too
<mathiaz> hm - so the position of the server team is that we'd like to have w3m on server installs
<dendrobates> mathiaz: yes, someone needs to review the seeds and report back to the group.
<mathiaz> we're happy to have it in the -server seed - if the desktop team wants it also it could be move to the standard seed
<mathiaz> that seems to be a broader question that may need to be discussed on -devel
<cjwatson> mathiaz: by saying that it should be moved to the server seed, that is equivalent to saying that the desktop team doesn't want it
<cjwatson> which I don't think this meeting is empowered to do ...
<mathiaz> cjwatson: aggreed
 * nealmcb forgets which seed it is in now....
<ScottK> Prefix it all with "If removed from standard"
<Keybuk> I don't think the desktop should have a text-based web browser
<cjwatson> feel free to put it in server *as well* to assert that you guys want it anyway
<Keybuk> (or a text-based e-mail client, irc client, etc.)
 * Brazen high-fives Keybuk
<mathiaz> so I'll send a reply to the email thread on -devel with the position of the server team
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to send a reply to the thread with the position of the server team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to send a reply to the thread with the position of the server team
<mathiaz> [ACTION] the seeds should be reviewed wrt to the creation of the server seeds
<MootBot> ACTION received:  the seeds should be reviewed wrt to the creation of the server seeds
<ScottK> Who's action?
<mathiaz> ScottK: I'm sure dendrobates will find someone
<dendrobates> mathiaz: my action for now.
<Keybuk> ScottK: ITYM "Whose action?"
<mathiaz> [ACTION] dendrobates to review seeds wrt to the creation of the server seeds
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dendrobates to review seeds wrt to the creation of the server seeds
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<ScottK> Keybuk: Yes.
<mathiaz> Anyone came with crazy ideas for Intrepid ?
 * ScottK has spec'ed his crazy idea.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
<mathiaz> Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  #
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<Brazen> in regards to Augeas: I just thought I would throw this out there, but would is it too far out there to say - use dpk-reconfigure as a configuration backend?
<mathiaz> same place, same time, next week ?
 * Brazen crap, too late
<nealmcb> Brazen: it would be nice to have something usable on rpm systems also, but I don't know how much complexity that would add etc
<nxvl> here again
<nxvl> :D
<nealmcb> nxvl: does it make sense to you to consider server config stuff next week? would this time work?  with dan and ebox also?
<nxvl> nealmcb: nop
 * nealmcb would prefer to also have skeptics like scottk there :)
<nxvl> nealmcb: i have a lot of problems at this time of day
<nxvl> need to run
<mathiaz> ok - so same place, same time, next week
<sommer_> mathiaz: I'm all for it
<mathiaz> #stopmeeting
<nealmcb> thanks all
<nijaba> #endmeeting maybe ?
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:16.
<mathiaz> nijaba: thanks :)
<sommer_> later on all
<nealmcb> start/end  begin/stop :(
<nijaba> Thanks for hosting, mathiaz
 * nealmcb votes for #beginmeeting and #endmeeting, with #stopmeeting and ï»¿#startmeeting for temporary adjournment :)
 * nealmcb moves that we reconvene as the committee of the whole some day
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> juliux: Schedule for Europe/Berlin: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 18 Jun 19:00: QA Team | 18 Jun 22:00: Xubuntu Community | 19 Jun 00:00: Platform Team | 19 Jun 15:00: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 22:00: Security Team
<juliux> hm no reginal board meeting today?
<juliux> Seveas: ?
<stgraber> at 18:00 UTC
<juliux> stgraber: thxs
<Seveas> juliux, fridge people tend to forget to put it on the fridge
<Seveas> twice in a row now :/
<Seveas> popey!
<popey> Seveas!
<HardDisk> yea
<HardDisk> I'm disappointed about that.
<Seveas> popey, see above, who do I need to slap?
<HardDisk> I asked twice for the EMEA to be in the fridge calendar.
<popey> me and/or boredandblogging
<popey> and others :)
<Seveas> popey, consider yourself slapped then
<juliux> don't slap the new ubuntu-news-team
<popey> my availability will be spradic
<popey> this evening
<popey> (wifes birthday)
<Seveas> congrats!
<juliux> popey: all the best to her
<popey> thanks :)
<HardDisk> Not meaning to butt in, but I assume then that the EMEA council has reviewed the applicants and checked out their wiki/launchpad pages?
<popey> thats a rather rash assumption :)
<HardDisk> haha
<popey> gah, family arriving, must dash
<juliux> \o/ ompaul ;)
<_Lux> Good Evening all
<riot_le> Evening _lux
<juliux> hi _Lux
<HardDisk> hey _Lux :)
<HardDisk> guess it's you and me
<_Lux> HardDisk: maybe
<HardDisk> well being here anyway :)
<riot_le> do you find a Mobile which belongs to you _lux?
<nixternal> mdz: I am at work, but read the email via the archives....if you could just in case I don't respond prior, just give me a ping to highlight me...I am sitting at work building RPMs right now, so if I start mumbling about Yum repos, just ignore me :)
<_Lux> riot_le: no, unfortunately not
<_Lux> riot_le: still searching
<_Lux> riot_le: maybe, I take a phone which can do nothing more then "phone" and catch an organizer ...
<riot_le> i have 6 months left till i have to take a decision what i take after my SE K800
<riot_le> no more features?
<_Lux> riot_le: I don't have a contract, only prepaid
<_Lux> riot_le: no more ...
<_Lux> riot_le: everything I want, can be done via WLAN ...
<juliux> _Lux: the n800 or n810 are realy cool linux pdas;)
<riot_le> but had no GSM @juliux
<juliux> wlan is enough
<_Lux> riot_le: yes, I know ... The story in Bochum, Germany
<HardDisk> juliux, openmoko :)
<juliux> HardDisk: if it comes.......
<_Lux> HardDisk: If it comes
<HardDisk> juliux, well if google buys it
<riot_le> what want google do with openmoko, its a mobile which is not uptodate
<_Lux> Ju: yes, I know ... The story in Bochum, Germany with Nokia was a mess
<_Lux> ment Julius: (sorry)
<juliux> _Lux: yes but i had my n800 befor that;9
<_Lux> riot_le: last not least, the software will be ready for end users some time in 2009 ...
<HardDisk> I have a P1, love it, never did nokia to be honest..
<_Lux> juliux: :-)
<_Lux> juliux: Lucky you ;-)
<_Lux> HardDisk: I have a P910i
<HardDisk> damn, McDuck one of my supporters :/
<HardDisk> yea P910 is awesome had that before
<_Lux> HardDisk: Maybe I take the X... (version after P1)
<HardDisk> cool.
<riot_le> maybe Googles Android has much better chances to establish Linux Smartphones at the Market
<_Lux> riot_le: Linux would be best
<_Lux> HardDisk: http://www.xonio.com/ii/174210931_c4110b9b69.jpg
<riot_le> Motorola has also Linux Phones in their Repertoire
<_Lux> riot_le: linux and closed ...
<HardDisk> motorola no thank you very much. :)
<PriceChild> @now
<ubottu> PriceChild: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 17 2008, 18:01:44 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<riot_le> aren't their no HowTos in WWW to open it?
<HardDisk> no EMEA meeting first?
<PriceChild> HardDisk: bugs for hugs is an entire day of stuff
<juliux> the frigde is not up to date
<juliux> so ubottu is not up to date
<PriceChild> Seveas: popey: is it now?
<Seveas> it is
<_Lux> PriceChild: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<juliux> PriceChild: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA says 18:00 utc;)
 * stgraber waves
<Seveas> sorry, was a bit occupied
<HardDisk> I concur.
 * juliux waves to Seveas and stgraber 
<PriceChild> Seveas: how dare you
<Seveas> how many are we today?
<HardDisk> it's time to be ubuntufied :)
<HardDisk> I'm present, Seveas
<Seveas> HardDisk, I meant board members
<HardDisk> ah.
<Seveas> popey, and phanatic canceled
<juliux> Seveas: popey has no time
<Seveas> that leaves just 3
<juliux> mark is not online
<Seveas> (since forumsmatthew seems to be missing)
<PriceChild> Is that enough? :/
<Seveas> I'm rather uncomfortable with having just 3
<PriceChild> 8 in total
<Seveas> 7
<PriceChild> whoops, read the cc on launchpad as a member
<Seveas> (CC is a member)
<PriceChild> I feel we should have at least half of us here :/
<Seveas> I suggest postponing to next week
<juliux> Seveas: are 3 enough for a quorum?
<Seveas> and also doing meetings once every two weeks, there's not enough work to have a meeting weekly :)
<PriceChild> Shall we give it 5-10 minutes to see if forumsmatthew appears?
<Seveas> juliux, no
<juliux> ok
<HardDisk> hey jY :)
<Seveas> PriceChild, iirc forumsmatthew couldn't make today
<PriceChild> or am I out of the loop?
<jY> HardDisk, hello
<PriceChild> okies
<HardDisk> ok I got one supporter :)
<HardDisk> where are the rest of the fellas?
<popey> i am about for ~10-15 mins if that helps?
<Seveas> popey, yes, have you heard from the israelians?
<popey> newp
<Seveas> I'll remove them from the page then
<popey> nice phrase :)
<juliux> popey: go celebrating the birthday of your wife;)
<Seveas> they can apply again when they are ready to
<popey> juliux: she is getting ready
<popey> it'll be 3 hours yet
<Seveas> now go eat pie :)
<juliux> popey: eheh
<popey> who is first then?
<Seveas> riot_le, you here?
<riot_le> yeah i am here
<popey> hi riot_le
<Seveas> heya
<Seveas> PriceChild, stgraber prod
<PriceChild> I'm still here :)
<riot_le> hi popey, seveas
<Seveas> let's move quickly, popey needs to go soon :)
<stgraber> me too
<popey> what types of computers do you send via Linux4Afika?
<popey> @ riot_le
<riot_le> i386-Clients (from Pentium II till III) with x64-Servers
<popey> you preinstall ubuntu on them I take it? :)
<Seveas> riot_le, I think your wikipage is a bit thin. You say you contributeed since 6.06 but I see very little detail about that
<riot_le> no we provide a Terminalservice/Thinclient-Solution
<popey> oh, i see
<PriceChild> riot_le: have you got anyone cheering for you, people who went to the local Ubuntuusermeeting in Leipzig? Any photos etc. or other materials to show off about all that organising and presenting? :)
<Seveas> riot_le, what kind of things do you do for ubuntu?
<riot_le> so Edubuntu is Installed at the Servers
<popey> i agree with Seveas, there's a flurry of launchpad activity in the last month, but not much before
<riot_le> i have explore launchpad at first 1 year ago, but doesnt spend so much time on it thats right
<Seveas> that's fine, launchpad isn't the only place to contribute
<popey> based on lack of cheers and and lack of long term sustained work, I'd say come back in 1-3 months
<riot_le> here are our local wiki-page at ubuntuuser-wiki: http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Anwendertreffen/Leipzig
<Seveas> I agree with popey. If the Leipzig treffen is the only contribution to date, you really should wait a few months before applying.
<riot_le> there are some pics and texts (german only. sorry)
<Seveas> if it isn't you should document your contributions better and collect some testimonials
<riot_le> testimonials?
<_Lux> riot_le: (german) Zeugnisse, Referenzen
<riot_le> ah ok, thankyou _Lux
<popey> good effort so far riot_le, keep it up! we want to see you back here!
<riot_le> thank you
<Seveas> stgraber, PriceChild, do you agree?
<PriceChild> riot_le: I'm saying the same, put things like that link you just gave us on your own wiki etc.! :)
<stgraber> sorry, was still looking at the wiki pages. Yes I agree with what was said so far, please better document your contributions and try to get some friends to show up and get more testimonials.
<HardDisk> hey dustybin :)
<dustybin> HardDisk: who are you?
<Seveas> ok, let's move on then
<PriceChild> popey: how long do you have?
<popey> 10 mins or so
<Seveas> HardDisk, dustybin. there's a meeting in progress. please respect that and be quiet
<Seveas> _Lux, you're up
<HardDisk> Seveas, sorry he's one of my supporters
<_Lux> Seveas: Here I am
<_Lux> (quite excited)
<popey> having looked at _Lux page, it seems thin on things that are tangeable, but it seems you do a lot of community type work that's hard to document?
<popey> what does "proxy team lead" mean _Lux ?
<_Lux> Matthias Urlichs was the team lead
<_Lux> If he could not do the job, I was the second one
<_Lux> Maybe proxy is the wrong word for that
<popey> deputy?
<_Lux> deputy sounds good
<Seveas> _Lux, can you please get some of the other people from ubuntuusers.de to vouch for you? I think your contributions are great, but I'd like to see someone like Yann2 confirm that
<popey> ok
<_Lux> juliux is here
<Seveas> ah, of course
<popey> _Lux: http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Verwaltung/Ikhaya-Team/Brief_an_einen_Windowsnutzer is there an english version of that?
<Seveas> juliux, speak :)
<_Lux> I can ask yann2 to come as well
<juliux> i would like to give _Lux a testimonial, he is very active in the german locoteam, helps to bring ubuntu-eu to a good way and he did the same with ubutnuusers.de, he is also a tob contributer to the german ubuntu association he helps where he can
<Seveas> +1 from me then
<_Lux> popey: Unfortunately not ...
<juliux> and he still help out the german locoteam, but he isn't longer living in germany;)
<popey> _Lux: if you could find the time to translate, I'd be interested in seeing it :)
<Seveas> popey, google translate?
<_Lux> popey: It is about reasons thiking to "convert" to an other os
<_Lux> popey: No prob
<popey> _Lux: I think the UK loco might be interested in something like that
<popey> as may other locos
<_Lux> Seveas: Google translate is a mess
<juliux> so for me _Lux showed a long termn contribution to the german locoteam and i am very happy that he is still acitve
<PriceChild> _Lux: ubuntu-eu.org just ticking along fine? What involvement do you have in that project specifically - What have you done for it, other than lead?
<PriceChild> bablefish ftl!
<popey> +1 from me based on vouch from juliux
<_Lux> PriceChild: I was an administrator in this team
<_Lux> Server administrator
<stgraber> _Lux: I see you are from Switzerland and even from Zurich (canton), were you at the Release Party ?
<_Lux> In the beginning of this year I relocated to Switzerland
<_Lux> stgraber: No, unfortunately not
<_Lux> PriceChild: Doing web and server administration
<PriceChild> ahhh so you admin the actual server, was wondering whether it was admin in running the people that contribute.
<_Lux> PriceChild: Yes, server administration
<_Lux> PriceChild: I think we had seven servers ...
<_Lux> PriceChild: (more or less)
<juliux> PriceChild: see http://www.ubuntu-eu.org/?page_id=3
<popey> impressive
<PriceChild> Cool, well I'm happy to +1.
<Seveas> stgraber, what's your vote?
<stgraber> +1
<Seveas> nice!
<Seveas> welcome aboard!
<juliux> congratulations _Lux
<popey> congrats _Lux
<Seveas> HardDisk, you're up (and last)
<HardDisk> congratulations _Lux :)
<_Lux> Hooray, a virtual beer to all of you
<riot_le> congratulation _Lux
<_Lux> Thanks
<HardDisk> Seveas, I'm ready
<Seveas> HardDisk, I think your wikipage is way too thin. You say your main contribution is irc, but it lacks testimonials from the irc team
<HardDisk> well I have them here
<HardDisk> Jack_Sparrow is busy in #ubuntu right now.
<PriceChild> HardDisk: a quick grep of my logs show you active in #ubuntu for the past week, but little more.
<Seveas> there are also no testimonials for advocacy
<yarddog> HardDisk !!!
<HardDisk> I recently was made chanop for #ubuntu-eg
<HardDisk> because there is a problem with our LoCo
<Seveas> karma is 115, so translation contributions aren't that much either
<popey> and all in the last 3 days
<HardDisk> and started a blog
<HardDisk> things are very slow in Egypt, unfortunately.
<Seveas> I'm going for -1 due to all that
<popey> Personally I'd rather people put tips and tricks on the help website (help.ubuntu.com/community) rather than on blogs, I think there are enough tip/trick blogs out there
<HardDisk> fair enough.
<Seveas> popey, +1
<window> *roots*
<popey> -1 from me also I'm afraid, based on a thin wiki page
<Seveas> PriceChild, I lost all my logs, can't grep anymore :(
<PriceChild> -1 from me too I'm afraid. For membership I want to a good sustained contribution, at the minimum about 3 solid months.
<HardDisk> Well it's unfortunate, this won't help my goal to start a LoCo team.
<HardDisk> But thank you.
<PriceChild> HardDisk: aww don't let it put you off!
<juliux> HardDisk: you don't have to be an ubuntu member to start a loco team, if you need help in your locoteam work come to the lococouncil
<Seveas> you don't need to be ubuntu member to start a locoteam. Instead, contributing to a locoteam is a way to become member
<stgraber> You wiki page looks empty and I won't give a +1 for IRC acitivity without testimonials. Contribute more and come back later. -1 from me too
<PriceChild> HardDisk: You don't need membership to start a LoCo, starting a LoCo is one of the things that will contribute to your membership application!
<juliux> HardDisk: next lococouncil meeting is next week
<dustybin> anyone here think that ubuntu server should be discontinued? it isnt really up to par for being a 'server'? a 6 month release cycle isnt suited to servers?
<HardDisk> PriceChild, I understand, but you don't understand how things are done here.
<popey> dustybin: please don't troll in the middle of a meeting!
<juliux> HardDisk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda people in #ubuntu-locoteams are also willing to help you
<Seveas> end of meeting!
<HardDisk> the Eglug is thin due to no "official" member support.
<dustybin> popey: wasnt trolling, just my opinion
<HardDisk> alright.
<popey> dustybin: wrong place for it
<PriceChild> HardDisk: what do you mean by that?
<Seveas> popey, PriceChild stgraber: how about doing meetings once every two weeks?
<popey> HardDisk: the loco council can help with building a loco
<popey> Seveas: +1
<stgraber> Seveas: +1
<PriceChild> Seveas: i like that much more, better ask the cc first though
<_Lux> What are the next steps for me?
<HardDisk> PriceChild, I mean being a member would have helped to promote ubuntu, mentality here is tough
<popey> Seveas: I'll email you the birthdays of all my friends and you can make sure you don't schedule meetings that day okay? :)
<Seveas> PriceChild, I'll add this suggestion to the mail to all boards+cc
<popey> _Lux: world domination!
<juliux> _Lux: waiting;)
<_Lux> popey: Sure, bin there, done that
<_Lux> :-)
<stgraber> Seveas: I don't think a 30 min meeting every week is useful, I prefer a one hour long meeting every two weeks
<HardDisk> PriceChild, especially in a country with no (c) laws, it's been hard to promote ubuntu as an alternative when people get their paid OS's for free anyway.  You understand.
<popey> _Lux: pressing send/receive on your email client until the mouse button wears out
<_Lux> popey: Sure, been there, done that
<PriceChild> HardDisk: i'm not sure it will have much more effect being a member
<_Lux> popey: :-)
<popey> :)
<HardDisk> PriceChild, that's your opinion. I respect that.
<Seveas> popey, pie time? :)
<popey> HardDisk: the vast majority of community members are not ubuntu members
<HardDisk> congratulations _Lux
<PriceChild> HardDisk: what would being a member do for you, what opportunities would it open?
<popey> HardDisk: it's not a pre-req
<_Lux> Thank you HardDisk
<_Lux> HardDisk: If I can assist you, I will help
<HardDisk> PriceChild, it would let me represent ubuntu.
<HardDisk> _Lux, I'd appreciate that
<popey> HardDisk: anyone can do that
<juliux> HardDisk: you can't present ubuntu without being a ubuntu member?
<_Lux> HardDisk: Maybe Mehdi (from ubuntu Iran) could help you too, I think he knows the mentality
<HardDisk> but I'm not whining.  It's voted, and done.  Thank you.
<PriceChild> HardDisk: but you can say you're from the ubuntu community now? (people will understand that more than "i'm an ubuntu member" i think too)
<HardDisk> _Lux, i'll contact him
<juliux> HardDisk: are you on the loco-contact list?
<juliux> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
<HardDisk> juliux, no, because the LoCo leader/team members are AWOL
<_Lux> HardDisk: Hey, help is guaranteed, it is ubuntu :-)
<juliux> HardDisk: you can join the list
<HardDisk> juliux, which is why I was granted chanop at #ubuntu-eg
<popey> HardDisk: we (Loco council) may be able to help there
<HardDisk> alright I'll do that
<juliux> HardDisk: bring your issues up to the loco council;)
<popey> Seveas: wifey hasn't decided what type of pie she wants, indian, chinese, italian..
<HardDisk> shukran, thank you.
<Seveas> popey, heh
<juliux> HardDisk: popey and i now allready know about it so 2 of 5 members of the loco council knows it;)
<Seveas> I had fish pie today. Recommended :)
<popey> mmmmm pie
<popey> http://drool.popey.com/
<Seveas> hehe
<juliux> popey: should we open a poll at launchpad?
<Seveas> hmm, firefox3 in hardy-updates
<Seveas> that's fast
<popey> heh
<yarddog> ff3 final is?
<Seveas> according to our ffox maintainer
<popey> we should tell all those poor saps downloading (or rather not) from firefox that if they install ubuntu they will get firefox 3 quicker :)
<Seveas> hehe
<_Lux> Seveas: Not yet mirrored ...
<yarddog> not showing yet
<popey> right, thanks all, I need to go and make myself look beautiful
<popey> ttfn
<PriceChild> ha
<juliux> hf popey
<PriceChild> erm, i mean "have fun"
<_Lux> Bye4now
<Seveas> popey, don't pursue impossible goals
<_Lux> Thnak you all
<_Lux> Thank you all
<juliux> Seveas: now you can watch the game;)
<Seveas> juliux, heh
<Seveas> probably gonna watch IT-FR
<juliux> Seveas: pls let the rumanie win;9
<Seveas> NL-RO doesn't matter
<juliux> RO has to win
<juliux> then are IT and FR out;9
<popey> :)
<Seveas> NL isn't gonna give the game away
<stgraber> too bad, would be fun to have IT and FR out :)
<Seveas> yeah
<juliux> stgraber: yes
<ace_suares> i hink nl is not up to let ro win to just get fr and it out
<mdz> sistpoty,nixternal: ping
<nixternal> hola
<sistpoty> hi folks
<sistpoty> pong mdz
<mdz> Keybuk reminded me that we actually agreed to change this meeting time, but since I had already told both of you it was now, we'll hold it now :-)
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:02. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nixternal> hehe, go go go :)  before my boss calls another meeting!
<Keybuk> oh, MootBot is back
<sistpoty> nice
<mdz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-core-dev application from Stefan Potyra (sistpoty)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application from Stefan Potyra (sistpoty)
<mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001210.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001210.html
<mdz> sistpoty: are any of your sponsors here?
<sistpoty> hm... not too sure... siretart around?
<mdz> I see slangasek mentioned
<sistpoty> hm... slangasek never sponsored me a package actually *g*
<mdz> LaserJock
<sistpoty> (and I'm having a hard time recalling my sponsors, I must admit... yeah, I guess laserjock and crimsun might have uploaded packages for me)
<sistpoty> and dholbach
<mdz> sistpoty: for my part, I don't have any first-hand experience of your work, so it would help if I could talk to folks who have worked with you
<sistpoty> sure, that makes sense...
<mdz> dholbach seems to have left for the evening
<sistpoty> otoh, I guess my +packages page might also give some clue, how long I'm around for now ;)
<mdz> certainly, I know your name and that you have been involved for a while
<sistpoty> heh
<mdz> sistpoty: would you mind if we email your sponsors and ask them for feedback?
<mdz> if you could give us a list
<sistpoty> sure, that's ok for me
<mdz> sistpoty: meanwhile, can you tell us a bit about your decision to apply and what you hope to accomplish as a core developer?
<sistpoty> iirc siretart, crimsun, laserjock, dholbach would be the ones. not too sure if I missed s.o. though (my uploads were spread for some time)
<sistpoty> mdz: well, as I've tried to write in my mail to mc, basically it only comes down to bug fixing, or helping were help is needed
<sistpoty> so don't expect too big goals here
<sistpoty> I guess I like to take care of the small but interesting things, which otherwise just fall through the cracks
<mdz> sistpoty: have you noticed anything in particular falling through the cracks recently?
<sistpoty> e.g. the xserver-xorg-video-cirrus bug, which was only fixed for kvm by a workaround, but not the real bug istead
<sistpoty> instead even
<mdz> I'm not familiar with that bug
<sistpoty> let me dig the url
<sistpoty> bug #193323
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 193323 in xserver-xorg-video-cirrus "x fails to startup in qemu - no driver for Cirrus card" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193323
<sistpoty> it was funny, because actually the driver was broken (which I learnt later), and doesn't even work for real hw (not too much of a problem, I don't think anyone has such a cirrus these days)
<mdz> sistpoty: you've been in MOTU for ages; surely you have some reason for deciding now to apply for core-dev
<sistpoty> well, I must admit that so far I've seen my main area of interest in universe (and I guess that will remain so), and main land was always s.th. were I just file a bug and be good with it
<sistpoty> but actually, I've come to think that main and universe aren't too much different, and there are some tight interactions between these two
<sistpoty> so I think, if I could be of help for all of ubuntu, why not
<mdz> sistpoty: we can always use more help in main, certainly
<mdz> sistpoty: have you ever participated in ISO testing?
<sistpoty> no, haven't done that, though I had plans to set up some automated iso tests with FAUmachine (but have never finished that actually)
<mdz> sistpoty: what is FAUmachine?
<siretart> sistpoty: but in fact you already have automated iso tests in FAU machines, no?
<sistpoty> mdz: FAUmachine is virtual machine based on qemu, focussed a little bit more on simulation however (and comes with features to run automated tests)
<sistpoty> www.faumachine.org
<mdz> sistpoty: how could it be used to help us with testing?
<sistpoty> siretart: iso testing: well, we have setups for a number of debian standard installations, and win2k/winxp, and I guess I could add some for ubuntu as well
<sistpoty> mdz: well, you can write test scripts which server as input for the "virtual user" (i.e. control the mouse, type text or check to see if a pattern is matched on the screen)
<mdz> sistpoty: how does the pattern matching work?
<sistpoty> mdz: so you can automate an installation, and e.g. check if openoffice starts or s.th.
<sistpoty> mdz: it uses png files as input, and the script will continue, once the png is matched with the screen output
<sistpoty> (or abort after a timeout)
<mdz> sistpoty: so you take a screenshot, and refer to that in the script?
<sistpoty> yes
<mdz> sistpoty: in the course of your packaging work, have you interacted much with Debian maintainers?
<sistpoty> mainly by filing bugs, though I'm also part of the debian games team (but not really active there atm.)
<siretart> mdz: I just got your email (though I came late to this meeting) - I commented on stefans application in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001201.html, and would definitely recommend him for main. I have worked with him in debian (with my DD hat on) as well, mainly in the pkg-games team.
<mdz> sistpoty: patches, or just regular bug reports?
<sistpoty> mdz: both... but more patches I think
<mdz> siretart: thank you.  have you sponsored uploads for him for Ubuntu main?
<mdz> sistpoty: how did the maintainers respond?  were your patches merged and the bugs closed, or are they still open?
<siretart> mdz: the last sponsored uploads was a merge for an xorg driver and the mentioned fix in the xorg cirrus driver.
<sistpoty> mdz: in most of the cases, the patches were accepted (that's why I there aren't many merges with my name on them)
<sistpoty> mdz: in the rest, the maintainer was mainly inactive, or the patches weren't approved (e.g. one desktop files iirc
<mdz> sistpoty: it was mentioned in your application that you ran a MOTU class regarding library packaging. how did you learn about it?
<sistpoty> mdz: well, I know some few bits, and put together a rough draft. Then I asked slangasek and that's the point I guess were I learned the most myself
<mdz> sistpoty: how did you know to ask him?
<sistpoty> mdz: I discussed it with siretart during uds boston
<sistpoty> (discussed the plan to hold a library packaging session even)
<mdz> I see
<mdz> sistpoty: do you have any questions for us?
<sistpoty> no, not at the moment
<mdz> do you have any thoughts on how the Ubuntu project could be improved, particularly with regard to developers?
<sistpoty> well, I think there's still some barrier between paid canonical devs and volunteers, but it's a great thing to see this diminishing more and more
<mdz> sistpoty: where is that apparent?
<mdz> as you probably know, we work hard to avoid a barrier, but it's difficult to get an objective view
<sistpoty> mdz: that's a good question... it's rather more a feeling, but becomes apparent from remarks here and there overseen on irc
<mdz> sistpoty: anything you could share which might help us understand or improve?
<sistpoty> mdz: I think we're on the right track there already, and it imho was a huge step forwards to have a community body speak out core-dev recommendations (and make that process more open)
<sistpoty> others than that, I believe that much development focus for main still is going on via irc, and I guess the mailing list could be used more (so that casual contributors know better what's going on)
<mdz> I've noticed that as the project has grown, we've taken more to IRC and the mailing lists are used less
<mdz> I think in some ways that's a shame, because the lists are more accessible
<mdz> but IRC is more efficient for day-to-day work
<sistpoty> yes
<mdz> Keybuk: ping?
<sistpoty> funnily, I believe for motu we're heading the opposite direction right now (to use the lists more)
<mdz> I think Keybuk may have lost his connection
<mdz> sistpoty: why do you think that is happening?
<sistpoty> mdz: that's a good question.. I guess both because we've grown in size to quite a large team (and hence e.g. timezone issues arise)
<sistpoty> but even more, we've got a growing number of "old" developers, who are busy with their job or other things, and only casually contribute
<mdz> it looks like I'm on my own here, and without Keybuk we don't have a quorum
<mdz> sistpoty: if he doesn't come back, would it be OK to process your application further by email?
<sistpoty> mdz: sure, no problem for me
<mdz> [AGREED] to continue the application process via email
<MootBot> AGREED received:  to continue the application process via email
<mdz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-core-dev application from Richard Johnson (nixternal)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application from Richard Johnson (nixternal)
<mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001219.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001219.html
<nixternal> hola!
<nixternal> my boss thinks I am on IRC finding out some hacking info on Anaconda, so I should be safe for a few minutes here
<mdz> nixternal: would it be better to talk another time?  it would be better if you could speak freely
<mdz> nixternal: or we could chat via email
<nixternal> I am good to go :)
<nixternal> we can chat here
<mdz> nixternal: Keybuk is MIA anyway, so I don't expect we'll be able to vote, but we can talk a bit
<nixternal> that's fine with me, how about you pick what you would like to do, I have no problem waiting either
<mdz> Riddell,Hobbsee,imbrandon,Tonio_,crimsun: if you have anything you'd like to say, please do
<nixternal> imbrandon, tonio, and crimsun are afk and didn't leave a response due to personal issues
<nixternal> so that leaves Riddell, Hobbsee, and ScottK
<mdz> nixternal: do you think there is hope for closer collaboration between the GNOME and KDE communities?
 * ScottK is here now.
<Riddell> I fully endorse nixternal as core-dev, he's an excellent contributor
 * ScottK too (plus a retroactive endorsement for sistpoty).  Both excellent candidates.
<Riddell> he did a great job recently backporting kde 4.1 for hardy
<Riddell> if he could contribute changes to packages directly to intrepid while doing that it would have been useful
<nixternal> mdz: I definitely do, and over the past year I think you are starting to see more and more of it actually, especially with GNOME and KDE coming together for their developer summits in 2009
<mdz> nixternal: do you think there is anything Ubuntu could do to facilitate that?
<nixternal> mdz: good question...I would say yes and no...Yes because we are obviously the top distro and we have a lot of good feedback to provide
<nixternal> I say no because there are people in both communities (GNOME and KDE) that tend to get upset when we try to poke at things that they want and not necessarily what we want
<nixternal> and of course, Canonical can always sponsor it :)  which I am pretty sure will happen anyways
<mdz> nixternal: we're very interested in the colocated guadec/akademy
<nixternal> as I am! hopefully I will be there
<mdz> Canonical has sponsored both events this year
<mdz> and it would be easier to participate in both if they were together
<nixternal> and I know we (KDE) are very happy that you did as well
<nixternal> it helps a lot and shows your commitment to wanting to help out
<mdz> nixternal: are there any bits of technology in KDE 4 which might be equally useful in a GNOME desktop?
<nixternal> eventually I would have to say Phonon is nice (now in Qt though, Gtk could look at adopting it maybe), definitely Akonadi which isn't KDE based anymore
<nixternal> I don't use the GNOME desktop much really, just some apps, like Evolution
<nixternal> however I think KDE could use a little KDEPIM help from the evolution folks on stuff like better Exchange support
<mdz> nixternal: I noticed you work on rsibreak; do you suffer from RSI or is it a casual interest? :-)
<nixternal> right now at work I have to use Evolution because Kontact/KDEPIM can't do my public calendars
<nixternal> hahahaha, mdz check the IRC logs, they should speak for themselves :)
<mdz> nixternal: have you found any treatment particularly helpful?
<mdz> I'm always looking for new things to try myself
<nixternal> sleep is about it really especially when I work all day on a laptop
<nixternal> but I tend to take breaks and swing my golf clubs or go for a bike ride
<mdz> my cyclist friends tell me it is the solution to all physical problems
<nixternal> that it is :)
<nixternal> although I pedal 60 miles round trip every day to work
<nixternal> and that I just started, so my arse and legs are currently shot
<mdz> nixternal: I'm afraid we'll have to defer further processing of your application as well, since we don't have a quorum
<mdz> apologies for that
<nixternal> that's groovy with me
<mdz> but thanks for speaking with me, and I'll follow up further by email
<nixternal> no problem
<mdz> [AGREED] to continue processing by email
<MootBot> AGREED received:  to continue processing by email
<nixternal> mdz: roger that, very much appreciated :) thanks!
<mdz> [TOPIC] Other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other business
<nixternal> thanks Riddell and ScottK as well, and you too Hobbsee for emailing your response :)
<mdz> any other business?
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:51.
<mdz> thanks, all, sorry for the lack of resolution
<mdz> MootBot: and you should think in UTC
<sistpoty> thanks for the meeting mdz :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-18
<boxdotsk> trying to figure out how to do the dancing icons
<Hobbsee> nixternal: almost in luck, then.
<nickellery> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> nickellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 18 Jun 10:00: QA Team | 18 Jun 13:00: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 15:00: Platform Team | 19 Jun 06:00: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 13:00: Security Team
<\sh> Seveas: can you please send ubottu to #leonov :) thx
<jussi01> \sh: Ummm, seveas doesnt run ubottu - I do. what is #leonov?
<\sh> jussi01: launchpad desktop client..
<riot_l1> \sh: do you upload the code or a package to Launchpad yet?
<\sh> riot_le: launchpad.net/leonov :)
<riot_le> \sh: great idea
<\sh> riot_le: yes...since launchpad was born I had this idea :)
<riot_le> \sh: what do you think how long will it take, till its usable?
<\sh> riot_le: depends...we have some things still to do...some other things we have to implement in py-lp-bugs, but thekorn rocks in doing this ;) hopefullly I'll have for the kde part a working bug info display this evening
<\sh> well...real life and real money work sucks ;)
<riot_le> thats true :-)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team
<pedro_> hey hey
<heno> hey everyone
 * stgraber waves
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team
<bdmurray> hi
<heno> wow we have a Fridge entry :)
<stgraber> yeah, rocks
<pedro_> yeah!
<heno> sbeattie, cgregan: around?
<davmor2> congrats :)
<cgregan> here
<heno> hey davmor2
<davmor2> heno: hello :)
<heno> ok, let's start
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:05. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> \o/
<heno> [TOPIC]: Hardy.1 SRU verification
<MootBot> New Topic: : Hardy.1 SRU verification
<sbeattie> hey
<heno> Here is a nice tracker sbeattie and LaserJock have been working on http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/sru_todo.html
<heno> some of the major packages like linux, openoffice and ltsp have been tested and seem good
<heno> firefox 3.0 was also released today
<heno> one area of concern is pulseaudio/alsa
<heno> sbeattie: do you have a view on that
<heno> ?
<heno> it's an area where we need to appeal for more testing I think
<sbeattie> heno: in terms of?
<sbeattie> Yes, I believe it's an area where we should appeal for testing.
<heno> sbeattie: what were the concerns expressed at last week's .1 meeting?
<heno> or is there a log I can look at?
<sbeattie> alsa/pulseaudio has a lot of problems as released, probably due to version mismatch between alsa's userspace and kernel.
<heno> what are the concerns about the new versions?
<heno> just that they are undertested?
<davmor2> sbeattie: is that the cause of somethings playing in wrong speakers if two audio apps are running?
<heno> and that it's a major change?
<sbeattie> davmor2: that I don't know.
<sbeattie> Yes, that it's a major upgrade for the userspace component, from 1.0.15 to 1.0.16.
<pedro_> new version aka alsa 1.0.16 ?
<pedro_> there's a resume about it here: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/221673/comments/16
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 221673 in alsa-plugins "ALSA failing with PulseAudio in Hardy" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<pedro_> seb128 talked with jordi about it and send us an IRC log which slangasek resume on that comment
<pedro_> s/send/sent
<heno> ok, thanks. that sheds some light
<heno> has mgunes been around lately? This would be a good item to bring to the forums
<slangasek> recently, there's an additional concern that the new alsa-lib causes regressions for xubuntu as well
<slangasek> which bug I cannot currently find
<cody-somerville> mmm
<cody-somerville> I didn't see that bug either
<sbeattie> the last comment in 221673 perhaps?
<sbeattie> oh right, bug 240337
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 240337 in alsa-lib "Upgrade of libasound2 to 1.0.16 on xubuntu 8.04 desktop  causes many applications to 'hang'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/240337
<davmor2> http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com/msg884888.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com/msg884888.html
<heno> so what is most needed here, general testing or better debugging information on know issues?
 * heno suspects the answer is 'both' :)
<sbeattie> I think that's right.
<sbeattie> :-)
<davmor2> or maybe a more standard way of testing for the upgrades?
<heno> davmor2: yes we need that too. We could use your help on improving https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/PerformingSRUVerification :)
 * davmor2 looking
<heno> to be as user friendly as the new test case pages
<heno> Ok, I'll read some logs and bugs about know issues and appeal for wider testing
<sbeattie> davmor2: did you mean in particular about testing alsa?
<davmor2> heno: that's just scary :-/
<heno> sbeattie, slangasek: anything else we should note about the remaining SRUs?
<sbeattie> Because that would perhaps be useful, drawing up some specific things to test.
<davmor2> sbeattie: no as a whole
<slangasek> heno: nothing off the top of my head, no
<sbeattie> other areas that we could use help verifying fixes are some of the wubi/installer related bugs.
<heno> I see there are some installer/wubi/migration-assistant issues
<davmor2> sbeattie: My point is it's okay to install -proposed but if you hardly use the apps that get updated you'll never know if there are any issues :)  Hope that makes sense
<heno> ... :)
<sbeattie> lupin, migration-assistant, casper.
<davmor2> is there an updated version that can be dropped on a cd now rather than recompiling a version and I can test that then?
<heno> davmor2: right, the bugs linked from http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/sru_todo.html should have test cases
<heno> that brings us to CD testing :)
<sbeattie> otherwise, the list of things needing verification has been pared down quite well, in part thanks to heno and stgraber for verifying openoffice and ltsp respectively.
<sbeattie> yes, cd testing, when I started to do some installer verification testing last week, I found the alternatives cd was broken
<heno> these are not built from proposed I guess http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/hardy/daily/current/
<sbeattie> slangasek fixed it, but we need to some smoke testing of what's getting built.
<heno> that might be useful in the future
<sbeattie> There's some isos being built from proposed...
<slangasek> heno: they are built from proposed
<heno> ah, very cool
<davmor2> slangasek: are these the iso that will be put forward as .1 or alpha 1 or both?
<sbeattie> .1
<slangasek> they're under /hardy/ - they have nothing to do with intrepid :)
<heno> [TOPIC]: 8.04.1 ISO testing
<MootBot> New Topic: : 8.04.1 ISO testing
<davmor2> Ah right np's :)
<heno> (just for the bookkeeping :) )
<heno> davmor2: both need testing, and hardy.1 more strictly
<davmor2> No probs heno.
<heno> stgraber says we can list both on the tracker
<davmor2> that's cool :)
<sbeattie> slangasek: are the other *buntus getting built for .1 as well?
<slangasek> yes
<sbeattie> excellent
<slangasek> but not until we fix a buglet introduced by removing packages from -proposed
<sbeattie> oh, they're failing to build now?
<stgraber> heno: it's indeed possible to do it, I must admit not having tested that for a long time :)
<slangasek> actually, they /were/ failing to build, now they just need an archive fix; sorry, my explanation above was ill-informed and buggy :)
<sbeattie> Heh, no problem, thanks for clarifying
<heno> so we should do some light smoke testing of the current hardy.1 CDs and then do more full coverage as we get final-candidate images
<sbeattie> agreed
<davmor2> heno: when are the FC cds going to be around?
<sbeattie> Is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Isoscript still useful for keeping daily images current?
<sbeattie> as far as anyone knows?
<LaserJock> is there a list of all the updates/bugs fixed on the .1 ?
<davmor2> sbeattie: it will be if you change directories
<heno> indeed, we should study the changes that have gone in to see what to focus on
<davmor2> or change hardy to intrepid
<sbeattie> davmor2: intending for 8.04.1 images.
<heno> we also talked about copying the test cases over to .../LTS/...
<sbeattie> LaserJock: not yet, that's something I else I want/need to generate
<heno> so we can keep them as they are while updating for Intrepid
<heno> i.e. fork them
<davmor2> sbeattie: yes change the path for where the script looks for the image
<sbeattie> davmor2: thanks, good to know.
<LaserJock> sbeattie: perhaps you can use pitti's script to extract out the bug #s for everything in hardy-updates?
<davmor2> sbeattie: as long as there is still a current it should be fine :)
<LaserJock> sbeattie: filtering out Universe that should give you quite a lot of info still
<sbeattie> LaserJock: that's a possiiblity.
<sbeattie> LaserJock: you interested and available to help out with that?
<heno> That should only affect Ubuntu though as Kubuntu is not LTS FOR 8.04
<sbeattie> ("no" is a perfectly valid answer)
<LaserJock> sbeattie: some at least yeah. I'm interested in the answer for Universe as well
<sbeattie> LaserJock: that's what I suspected
<sbeattie> action: sbeattie (primarily) and laserjock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1
<sbeattie> ACTION: sbeattie (primarily) and laserjock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1
 * sbeattie hrm
<cody-somerville> sbeattie, LaserJock: Make sure not to forget Xubuntu :)
<heno> buggy bot
<stgraber> I guess heno needs to do that, and it's [ACTION]
<LaserJock> it doesn't like you. perhaps you need to feed it more bot snacks
<LaserJock> cody-somerville: make sure to ping us about that, but yeah, we'll have to keep that in mind :/
<heno> [ACTION]: sbeattie (primarily) and LaserJock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1
<MootBot> ACTION received: : sbeattie (primarily) and LaserJock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1
<sbeattie> heno what was that about kubuntu?
<LaserJock> cody-somerville: maybe we can look for SRUs in packages in the Xubuntu Hardy seed?
<cody-somerville> [ACTION] cody-somerville to liaison with LaserJock regarding fixes going in to 8.04.1 for Xubuntu specific packages.
 * cody-somerville tried.
<heno> sbeattie: because Kubuntu is staying on KDE 3.5 (+the 4.0 remix), Kubuntu isn't LTS for 8.04
<heno> so we don't need to keep copies of the Kubuntu test cases around for 3/5 years
<sbeattie> ah, got it.
<heno> we are respinning the CDs now because of the ssl issues AFAIU
<sbeattie> yes, branching the testcases would be good.
<heno> which we don't expect to repeat :)
 * slangasek nods
<heno> [TOPIC]: Spec status
<MootBot> New Topic: : Spec status
<sbeattie> heno: one sec
<heno> ok
<sbeattie> slangasek: are you okay if we push for more widespread testing of the alsa update?
<sbeattie> i.e. blog/forum announcements?
<slangasek> I'm somewhat concerned that this would flood us with low-quality feedback while we're still trying to sort out the meaning of bugs like #240337
<sbeattie> That one does seem to be missing hardware info
<heno> too much testing of -proposed seem like a bit of a luxury problem
<heno> we got a reasonable response after I blogged, but not a flood
<sbeattie> slangasek: we could time it for a couple days out, to give Luke time to sort out that particular issue if possible.
<persia> Luke doesn't have HW to replicate the issues with the bug
<slangasek> persia: what hardware is that? the bug doesn't seem to say
<heno> what HW is it, and can we get it to him?
<persia> slangasek: Perhaps I'm confused then.  He was previously saying that he was having trouble replicating some of the pulse issues that might be related to the ALSA mismatch, as his HW worked.
<persia> Nevermind.  I've read the bug backwards.  That's a 1.0.16 bug.  Sorry.
<slangasek> ok :)
<heno> ok, shall we move to specs?
<sbeattie> that's fine.
<heno> Thanks everyone for polishing off the specs
<heno> they are now all in good shape and Approved
<heno> (appart from a fw that are not started ...)
<heno> and I need to re-read the mobile one
<heno> cgregan: thanks for updating, looks good at a glance
<cgregan> heno: I completed the updates we spoke about.
<cgregan> :-)
<cody-somerville> Is there anybody that can help me with this bug? It is rather important.
<cody-somerville> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/232364
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 232364 in dbus "dbus-launch freezes for unknown reason at session start" [High,Confirmed]
<heno> I also want to add one about automated CD testing and one about QAs role in advising on release status
<cody-somerville> It should really be fixed for the point release if at all possible
<cody-somerville> Oops, I guess I interjected there.
<heno> cody-somerville: that's ok, can you bring it to #u-bugs or #u-testing afterwards?
 * cody-somerville nods.
<heno> bdmurray: I looked at the teams in LP as we talked about for the categories on the package info pages but found the mapping quite poor, so I wen't with a hand-crafted stucture loosely based on team interest
<heno> we may need to refine that as we go, but we shouln't block on it
<bdmurray> heno: I thought that we should improve the mapping in Launchpad
<heno> bdmurray: right, wecan still go that route, but ATM it's quite inconsistent how teams relate to packages
<bdmurray> okay, sounds good
<heno> and if we make changes across the board it will affect the bug mail people get I guess
<heno> I still like that approach but it was starting to look like a major blocker
<heno> any other comments on specs? if not let's revisit them in 2 weeks
<davmor2> maybe leave it till it's safe to play about with it and formalise a plan of attack and lay it out properly then?
<LaserJock> heno: what spec were you just discussing?
<heno> davmor2: I'd rather have the pages up sooner so we can get use from them
<heno> even if the structure is not 'perfect'
<heno> LaserJock: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/package-status-pages
<davmor2> heno: sorry not well explained.  Keep things as they are now then when it is safe to swap stuff around re-think the layout then is what I mean :)
<heno> davmor2: ok, then I agree :)
<heno> any other topics for the meeting?
<heno> (2 minute ones :) )
<davmor2> one minute your clock is slow ;)
<pedro_> not from me
<LaserJock> heno: why would those status pages not be done by Launchpad, and for every package?
<heno> LaserJock: we basically have those pages already for each package in LP ;)
<LaserJock> virtually all the data is from Launchpad it looks like (except maybe popcon, but that probably should be in Launchpad as well ;-) )
<heno> this will be more team focused, collecting packages together
<LaserJock> heno: and wouldn't that go into a teams package report on Launchpad?
 * LaserJock is playing a bit of devil's advocate, but is curious
<heno> we are prototyping this now but the functionality should probably be implemented in LP later, I agree
<LaserJock> ok
<bdmurray> That's part of the motivation for having the assoication btwn teams and packages exist in lp
<heno> LaserJock: I agree, we are just trying to move it along
<davmor2> make assigning bugs easy too I guess :)
<heno> bdmurray: right, I'd be happy to get a second opinion on the feasibility of doing that now
<bdmurray> heno: I'll look into it with one of the teams
<heno> bdmurray: I only had a brief look and don't know the dusty corners of LP as well as you do :)
<heno> bdmurray: great, thanks
<heno> ok, thanks all!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:07.
<davmor2> bye !
<pedro_> thanks
<sbeattie> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks
 * cody-somerville stretches.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam
<zoredache> !time
<ubottu> Information about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP)
<TheSheep> @now
<ubottu> TheSheep: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 18 2008, 19:21:15 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<cody-somerville> hmm...
 * cody-somerville pokes ubottu 
<TheSheep> cody-somerville: we still have 20 minutes
<cody-somerville> :)
<pimanx> @schedule
<ubottu> pimanx: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 18 Jun 20:00: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00: How to run a Bug Jam
<charlie-tca> Just waiting for the Xubuntu community meeting
<Moe> well, we've just been waiting for you obviously
<cody-somerville> :)
<charlie-tca> glad to hear it
<cody-somerville> For those who haven't had a chance to review it yet, the draft can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
 * cody-somerville stretches.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Xubuntu Community | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam
 * cody-somerville cheers.
<cody-somerville> Hello Folks!
<cody-somerville> \o_
<cody-somerville> I'm just finishing up at work
<charlie-tca> hello
<charlie-tca> I'm retired, but just starting work
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, :)
<Moe> I'll be listening mostly
<cody-somerville> This is a follow up meeting to the very successful Xubuntu community meeting we had not too long ago.
<cody-somerville> With the help of Jono Bacon, the Ubuntu Community Manager, we as a community were able to come together to find consensus on several key issues.
<cody-somerville> The most important accomplishment we made was agreeing on an initial mission statement
<Moe> uhu .. there goes the bot
<TheSheep> we don't need no stinkin bot ;)
<cody-somerville> I'm also very grateful that I was tasked with the responsibility of forging forward as the newly appointed Xubuntu Team Leader. My initial mandate being to develop a strategy document that would provide a solid foundation for the Xubuntu project to grow and mature.
<Moe> Guess the bot didn't think so
<cody-somerville> The mission statement which was agreed upon is as follows:
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu will provide (The goal of Xubuntu is to produce) an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu will be built and developed auto
<cody-somerville> nomously as part of the wider Ubuntu community, based around the ideals and values of Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> For a project to have a useful vision and strategy, it must have a target audience or group. The target audience (or group) for Xubuntu is users who are interested in having a modestly light weight, slim, fast desktop experience while retaining the usability and functionality that is required to provide an easy to use desktop environment.
 * TheSheep has a deja vu
<cody-somerville> Now, before I bore everyone with fluffy talk, I think it is important to dig right in
<cody-somerville> I'
<cody-somerville> We will use a three tier system that defines our foci and provides a transparent, agnostic framework that can be applied to dispute resolution, package selection, policy, and our decision making processes.
<cody-somerville> This is a unique feature to the Xubuntu community which I feel will enable us to make fluid strides towards achieving objectives.
<cody-somerville> Focus 1: Integration
<cody-somerville> It is important for us to provide an integrated desktop as it is a critical component to being a useful desktop, a usable desktop, and an effective desktop. Without integration, the Xubuntu desktop will be rough and unpolished which is unappealing to our end-users. We will provide an integrated desktop by selecting packages that work well with each other and applying patches (aka "glue") to further improve the situation.
<cody-somerville> Success is measured by considering the progress made during a release cycle towards related specifications and user feedback. In the future, more comprehensive metrics will be developed.
<cody-somerville> Focus 2: Usability
<cody-somerville> We want Xubuntu to be usable. By this, not only do we mean we want Xubuntu to be easy to use but also accessible and localized to enable users who face impairments and those wishing to work in their own tongue. To accomplish this, we'll strongly consider the usability and accessibility of an application when deciding on package selection, invest in contributing to upstream usability and localization efforts, and pulling on t
<cody-somerville> alent from our community to provide interface usability analysis.
<cody-somerville> Success in providing an accessible desktop can be measured through testing (including automated) and user feedback while localization will be measured by looking at the percentage of the desktop that is translated. To measure how easy to use Xubuntu is, we'll employ test cases and draw on the community talent to provide professional grade analysis.
<cody-somerville> Focus 3: Performance
<cody-somerville> Being lightweight, slim, and fast are all words that have been used to describe and market Xubuntu. However, over the last few releases we've noticed that not only does Xubuntu pale in comparison to some of the other Xfce4 distributions but we've also been putting on even more weight and bulk. Although it is not Xubuntu's goal nor target to provide a desktop environment which will run on the most minimal of systems, it is Xu
<cody-somerville> buntu's goal to provide a desktop that is modest and can run with minimal problems on machines that have aged a few years.
<cody-somerville> Now, this part is important
<cody-somerville> The initial target will be 128mbs-192mbs of RAM (with appropriate swap space available) and 333Mhz-400Mhz CPU. The target for a release will be evaluated at the beginning of each release cycle and updated as required.
<Moe> 400Mhz?
<Moe> Can I come in there?
<cody-somerville> Dare I ask where?
<Moe> I don't want to interrupt if this isn't the right moment
<pygi> cody-somerville, I believe he wants to say something
<Moe> well, I don't think 400Mhz is a pretty realistic projection
<cody-somerville> Okay.
<cody-somerville> What do you feel would be more realistic?
<Odd-rationale> 600Mhz ?
<Moe> At least
<Moe> I mean .. of course, you MIGHT just be able to get it to run on 400Mhz
 * TheSheep used xubuntu dapper on a 200Mhz box, it was possible...
<cody-somerville> I ran Xubuntu on 333mhz for several years.
<charlie-tca> If I may, you can run all the versions so far on 400 Mhz
<Moe> But you just told us about Xubuntu's strive for usability
<Moe> And its hardly going to be of much use on a 400Mhz processor
<Moe> From what I can tell
 * pygi notes that especially burning higher capacity disks require more CPU ...
<charlie-tca> two of my 4 systems I use daily are 400Mhz
<TheSheep> it all depends on the use case
<cody-somerville> Thank you for bringing that up Moe.
<cody-somerville> I think you've made an excellent point
<TheSheep> some use cases will require faster cpus
<Moe> Oh your welcome .. I just thought I'd voice my opionion on that .. please go on
<TheSheep> playing dvd movies...
<cody-somerville> I think that Xubuntu should aim for a range
<TheSheep> cody-somerville: about that, you cannot target a range, you can target several targets, but not a range...
<pygi> the thing is ... the apps that you ship must be usable under most use cases
<cody-somerville> pygi, Most appear to be (except maybe Firefox)
<Moe> Whats Xubuntu shipping as its default email client again?
<pygi> cody-somerville, ship Midori then?
<Odd-rationale> ff3b5 was slow loading on to my 500-600Mhz. i don't know about yours...
<cody-somerville> Moe, Thunderbird.
<TheSheep> midori is not really stable, is it?
<Moe> Okay, what applies to firefox applies to thunderbird as well
<Odd-rationale> TheSheep: not quite...
<Moe> Keep that in mind
<pygi> TheSheep, it hasnt crashed even once on me, while ff has millions of times
<cody-somerville> I think it is important that Xubuntu does not exclusively target users with low, modest, or high powered machines but instead targets the entire spectrum with a strong focus on enabling lower end machines. Xubuntu's extra responsiveness and speed, among other positive traits, can be appreciated by all users regardless of their hardware - no?
<Odd-rationale> what about epiphany-webkit, when it is stable?
<pygi> Odd-rationale, also seems even better, as it is supported by gnome project (6 months release cycle)
<TheSheep> Odd-rationale: that;s a decission to make once we have the strategy defined
<Moe> cody-somerville: I second that
<Odd-rationale> k
<cody-somerville> So, although the experience won't be super stellar on a 333mhz we aren't aiming for that either
<Moe> We weren't talking about stellar performance .. we were talking about Xubuntu being usable at 333Mhz ;-)
<cody-somerville> We're simply looking to enable that machine to an agreed and achievable level of usefulness.
<cody-somerville> Well, as someone who has used Xubuntu on a 333mhz for a number of years I certainly appreciated having Xubuntu around :)
<TheSheep> cody-somerville: it's just my opinion, but shouldn't we have several well-defined targets, instead of that range? For example, have a separate "low-spec user, low expectations" user and another "I want everythng" one?
<charlie-tca> I think it is usable, with the exception of FF3
 * cody-somerville nods at charlie-tca.
<cody-somerville> TheSheep, Thats an excellent idea, IMHO.
<Moe> However, I'll rest my case for now .. I haven't run Xubuntu on a mere 333Mhz yet .. so I'm shooting in the dark here (although, my assumptions are founded on experience)
<TheSheep> so we have "low-end user wants to do this, this and that, but doesn't care about this, this and that"
<Moe> TheSheep: Xubuntu Home Basic and Xubuntu Ultimate?
 * Moe chuckles
 * pygi burns Moe 
<Moe> Sorry, couldn't resist
<TheSheep> Moe: no, one install, just two use scenarios
<Moe> right right .. I know what you mean .. just ignore my blabber
<charlie-tca> Granted, I use what I need when running the low-speed cpus, but can't you run all the programs in a faster machine?
<cody-somerville> Ok. I endorse TheSheep's idea about instead of having a range, having several well defined targets each with well defined expectations.
<cody-somerville> Any other points/comments about any of the three focuses? :)
<TheSheep> cody-somerville: disk space for the "performance" part
<TheSheep> or rather "lightweightness"
<TheSheep> it's getting important with those flash-based cheap laptops around
<Odd-rationale>  
<Odd-rationale> oops...
 * pygi just notes epiphany-webkit/midori + syphleed-claws (or whatever the name is) would work much better then tb + ff
<Odd-rationale> pygi: claws mail
<cody-somerville> Well, one change I made today is modifying our seeds to allow for individuals to uninstall packages they rather not have without removing xubuntu-desktop along with it
<cody-somerville> :)
<Odd-rationale> cool!
<Odd-rationale> i was wondering about that...
<charlie-tca> Great!
<pygi> Odd-rationale, yea, but syphleed-claws is more bleeding edge :)
<cody-somerville> Now for those of you following along in the specification, you know whats next.
<Odd-rationale> pygi: oh, ok. i thought claws mail was the "better". could have gotten confused...
<highvoltage> howdy!
<cody-somerville> Heya highvoltage :)
<charlie-tca> pygi: syphleed-claws is replaced by claws-mail; sylpheed is also good without the bells and whistles
<pygi> charlie-tca, ah, that, yes :p
<pygi> Odd-rationale, you were right, sorry :)
 * cody-somerville introduces "(Unofficial) Focus 4: Community"
<highvoltage> hey cody!
<pygi> highvoltage, long time no see ;)
<cody-somerville> Although not an official element of the Xubuntu Three Tier focus (which is limited in scope to technical considerations), community *is* most certainly a focus and priority within the Xubuntu project. Xubuntu is community driven meaning that it is developed, maintained, and supported by members of the Xubuntu community. For Xubuntu to be a healthy and successful project, it must have a healthy and successful community. Xubun
<cody-somerville> tu, as a project, will aim to be composed of a vibrant, active and energized community and will attempt to accomplish this by being proactive in its development of said community. Xubuntu will host bug days, packaging jams, and other public events specifically targeted to raising awareness and interest in the Xubuntu project.
<highvoltage> pygi: heh, yes. I bet uni is keeping you very busy
<pygi> highvoltage, yea, and mucho nice new stuff :)
<TheSheep> charlie-tca, pygi: these are really specific decissions that will be made according to this strategy cody is trying to make :)
<highvoltage> cody-somerville: where can I see the three tier focus?
<TheSheep> highvoltage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
<cody-somerville> highvoltage, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
<highvoltage> ah right
<cody-somerville> Included in my endeavour to support the growth of the Xubuntu community is my interest in developing stronger relationships with upstream - ie. Debian and Xfce4
<cody-somerville> I'm really excited to see a number of Xfce4 developers/contributors with us this for this meeting - it certainly means a lot to me :)
<highvoltage> :)
<cody-somerville> I thought that some upstream developers have expressed discontent with how certain situations have been handled in the past. However, I want Xubuntu to be well known as a constructive and active contributor to the free software ecosystem.
<cody-somerville> Being a good "neighbour" is important to Xubuntu and important to me :)
<Moe> Thank you .. Xfce appreciates your concerns and welcomes an contributions
<Moe> *any
<cody-somerville> Moe, Splendid! :)
<Moe> Especially with our new, upcoming release
 * pygi casts ++ on what Moe said :)
<cody-somerville> Moe, If there is anything we can do to help then please feel free to make it known :)
<Moe> Incase it hasn't been noticed yet .. Xfce has put out a roadmap and milestone definition for Xfce 4.6
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> Very exciting times for Xfce I think :)
<Moe> The next alpha release is scheduled for the 29th this month
<highvoltage> wow, that's quite cool
<Moe> Anything thats on the roadmap page and isn't done for 4.6 yet needs to be addressed
<Moe> First and foremost, two compoments that really need attention right now are the menu editor (which hasn't even been started yet) and the mixer
<daigorobr> roadmap url is...?
<cody-somerville> I imagine it would be helpful for us to upload those snapshots to our development version (as they'll receive extensive testing if we do so).
<cody-somerville> Yes?
<Moe> http://wiki.xfce.org/roadmap_to_46
<daigorobr> Thanks
<Moe> http://wiki.xfce.org/milestones_to_46
<Moe> cody-somerville: Absolutely
<Moe> Beware though, the alpha release is by no means ready for serious production environments .. or even home computers
<mr_pouit> (if we have testers and bug triagers in xubuntu, and that's not the case actually)
<Moe> We're in the process of integrating the configuration architecture
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, You may not know this but Canonical actually does test Xubuntu ;]
<Moe> Most of the backend code has been written .. and even some of the frontends have been migrated already
 * cody-somerville nods @ Moe.
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: but they do not forward the bugs
<mr_pouit> cody-somerville: that's why we have to do these ~13 srus?
<jeromeg> and no one does since I lived
<Moe> But anything apart from the core components is still lacking behind (as it is not required to be ready for nor ship with the alpha release)
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, mr_pouit
<cody-somerville> Moe, Is there any component in particular that individuals who are not familiar with developing Xfce4 would be able to jump in easily?
 * pygi votes for xfburn
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: yes ?
<jeromeg> + 1 for xfburn
<pygi> cody-somerville, we're willing to provide mentorship for whatever is needed anyway :)
<jeromeg> pygi and david are very welcoming mentors
<Moe> well, the menu editor is the best way to start of actually .. as it hasn't been touched yet
<Moe> libxfce4menu (written by Jannis Pohlmann) is a pretty good library implementing the freedesktop menu spec
<Moe> I'm sure writing a menu editor would help him sort out the few remaining bugs
<Moe> So thats a place to start
<gpocentek> is there anyone in the xubuntu team who has already touch GTK apps?
 * cody-somerville me.
<gpocentek> I mean, *really*, not one liner patches
<gpocentek> dealing with gobject and fun like that?
 * cody-somerville sorta has.
 * cody-somerville notes that he just a call from a client, please continue discussion. :)
<gpocentek> bugs are triaged once per month, and the plan is now to develop apps?
<cody-somerville> One second, and I'll respond to that
<pygi> we actually got some contributions from a folk who's been playing with C for a few weeks only
<jeromeg> pygi: hello ;)
<Moe> Of course .. hunting down bugs and/or hunting developers with bugs already filed with the bugtracker is a worthwhile job as well
<pygi> and he learned basics of GTK+ and gobject enough to contribute a few enchantments here and there
<pygi> jeromeg, greetings ^_^
<pygi> so it's really not that hard
<gpocentek> that's one person...
<jeromeg> pygi: and it's me ;)
<Moe> Apart from that, the roadmap is full of suggestions and/or steps needed to be taken before 4.6 can be released
<pygi> well, yea, I'm just saying that everyone is more then welcome to jump in, say what they wanna work on, and we'll be glad to mentor
<mr_pouit> and this person isn't in the xubuntu team ^_~
<pygi> mr_pouit, that's true tho :)
<mr_pouit> once upon a time he did triage all xubuntu bugs alone ;P
<gpocentek> what I meant is that there's no resources ATM to handle both work on the distro and coding (IMO)
<jeromeg> gpocentek: well, there are no resources at all
<jeromeg> except if people step in
<jeromeg> the packages are managed by mr_pouit and gpocentek which are not in the xubuntu team
<jeromeg> who are not, sorry
<Moe> I'll need to head out now .. feel free to subscribe to the xfce mailinglists if you want to jump in .. or even drop me an email directly via moe@xfce.org
<daigorobr> I really think that the work should be divided in classes, even if there isn't enough ppl. And then priorities set.
<Moe> Way to go Xubuntu
<Moe> later
<jeromeg> see you Moe
<TheSheep> daigorobr: that makes it even harder to do the work. it's not fun to do something you are told to do
<daigorobr> And just then you ppl should start recruiting ppl.
<daigorobr> TheSheep: Fact.
<daigorobr> But I take myself as an example.
<daigorobr> I am passionate about Ubuntu, and passionate about low end machines. Xubuntu is my niche.
<daigorobr> But I also have my day job, that takes lots of energy.
<daigorobr> I wanted to contribute. But how? Where I find "job offers" for the team?
<daigorobr> I can't enlist for programming and triaging bugs and this and that.
<TheSheep> it would be nice if you could just pick somehting and work on it when you have time and energy, and not have it wasted even if you don't finish
<jeromeg> daigorobr: triaging bugs is actually quite hard
<daigorobr> And I bet there is a lot of ppl that wanted to contribute but don't have enough time to commit fully.
<daigorobr> I know.
<daigorobr> That's what I say, jeromeg.
<daigorobr> The commitment can be extenuating.
<jeromeg> you need to go to the Launchpad page of the application
<jeromeg> and look if there is an open bug
<jeromeg> then read the bug summary
<daigorobr> But I bet I interrupted you people in something more important.
<daigorobr> jeromeg: I know it's hard and important. Been there already.
<cody-somerville> Sorry about that, I had a client on the phone :)
 * cody-somerville reads up.
<jeromeg> daigorobr: I was jocking, it's not hard
<jeromeg> daigorobr: it's just time consuming
<jeromeg> so no one wants to do it :)
<daigorobr> jermoeg: Exactly.
<TheSheep> jeromeg: I think it is very hard on average
<daigorobr> jeromeg: Time consuming means hard for me.
<jeromeg> TheSheep: the only difficult thing is to guess if it's caused by one of our sucking patches or if ti's an upstream issue
<daigorobr> Programming is fun. Bureaucracy is hard.
<cody-somerville> Okay, before this meeting gets derailed lets bring things back on track. :)
<TheSheep> jeromeg: I only did it several times, but you need pretty good knowledge about how applications work internally to guess which compaonent is broken and whether it's not just a bad configuration
<daigorobr> cody-somerville: Agreed.
<cody-somerville> 1. Gpocentrek and Jeromeg express concern that because there is not enough people to staff Xubuntu how could we possible commit to contributing directly to Xfce4?
<cody-somerville> The simple answer is that those concerns are very valid and no amount of wishing will change that
<cody-somerville> So, no, I'm not suggesting Xubuntu pledge code contributions, etc. etc.
<cody-somerville> We obviously have to live within our means to sustain ourselves with the limited resources we have.
<cody-somerville> However, that certainly isn't going to stop me from hacking away on interesting problems or bugs that are bothering me and contributing those patches back upstream :)
<jeromeg> mmm
<cody-somerville> People's interest commitment, and activity level are constantly changing - including my own.
<daigorobr> cody-somerville: but not as a xubuntu team motto, you mean. just as a fun thing to do.
<jeromeg> sure, but the problem is that the basics have to be done
<daigorobr> (forgive me my english)
<cody-somerville> I've been rather busy with work but this week I've actually devoted quite a large amount of time in my attempt to fix bug #232364
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 232364 in dbus "dbus-launch freezes for unknown reason at session start" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/232364
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, agreed.
<TheSheep> cody-somerville: that's my favorite one
<TheSheep> cody-somerville: we can compare notes one day...
<jeromeg> if bugs are not triaged and forwarded, there is no point in shipping the alpha releases of xfce
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, Agreed.
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, However, bugs will be triaged and will be forwarded - I'm confident of it
<jeromeg> the holy spirit will do it ?
<jeromeg> and if by triaged you mean mr_pouit and gpocentek when the queue too long, this is not enough
<cody-somerville> I don't mean that, jeromeg.
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, gpocentek and mr_pouit are not the only ones helping with bugs and packaging.
<TheSheep> I think there are a lot of people who would help if they were shown how
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, Infact, I expect the number of contributors will increase quite noticeably over this release cycle as long as we can all pull together and show people how incredibly awesome Xubuntu is :)
<charlie-tca> TheSheep: I agree with that. It's finding how to help and "who can teach me" that seems difficult
<cody-somerville> TheSheep, Agreed.
<cody-somerville> It is kind of the chicken and the egg problem, no?
<TheSheep> yes
<gpocentek> how did we get involved? I mean, we didn't wait for people to show us...
<cody-somerville> This is why I'm planning to take advantage of some of the creative ideas we've seen generated here in the Ubuntu community like bug days
<TheSheep> which is kind of bringing hope, as it's possible to get a snowball effect...
<cody-somerville> gpocentek, Nope but you didn't just become the top contributor over night, right?
<jeromeg> nah, it took him two ;)
<mr_pouit> (and "chicken and egg" problem would mean that if there's nobody working on xfce in ubuntu, that's because it sucks right now?
<mr_pouit> )
<gpocentek> cody-somerville: I never said that, but there's a huge step between top-contributor and nothing
<cody-somerville> gpocentek, Agreed.
<gpocentek> and i've never been top contributor :)
<charlie-tca> Can't we publish the wiki "how to help xubuntu" page periodically?
<cody-somerville> Lots of people want to be involved they just don't want to *get* involved.
<cody-somerville> It seems like we're getting offtopic again :)
<jeromeg> triaging is really not hard
<cody-somerville> However, I'm glad we brought this up.
<jeromeg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-panel
<jeromeg> just grab a bug here
<cody-somerville> Because it is something I'm very passionate about seeing improved.
<jeromeg> try to confirm it
<jeromeg> look at the backtrace to see if it's not full of ???????
<jeromeg> once you have a backtrace without ???????? from the user
<jeromeg> forward the bug to the xfce bugzilla
<jeromeg> if it's a whishlist, forward it directly
<jeromeg> always check if it has not been reported upstream before
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, Maybe you'd like to get together sometime and write up a guide/blog post with me ( mr_pouit and gpocentek and whoever else of course invited as well ) to write up a Xubuntu specific guide?
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, We wouldn't repeat stuff that is already on the wiki
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, But I imagine you have some wisdom to share about how to best deal with upstream and such
<gpocentek> a xubuntu specific guide?
<cody-somerville> gpocentek, or an "insert" to the normal one ;]
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: the rules are the same for every upstream project
<jeromeg> I don't think we need a guide for xubuntu
<mr_pouit> (to do bug triaging, the ubuntu bugsquad wiki pages should be ok ;)
<jeromeg> http://bugzilla.xfce.org/
<cody-somerville> no no, you guys misunderstand me :)
<jeromeg> to report bugs
<cody-somerville> I don't mean we rewrite whats already there
<cody-somerville> but I imagine having a page with Xubuntu specific info would be helpful for people getting involved in bug triaging Xubuntu.
<cody-somerville> I'll elaborate more on it later on the mailing list.
<jeromeg> the very positive step you could take
<jeromeg> is to clean our patches
<jeromeg> and to move them uptream
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, Agreed.
<jeromeg> or drop them if they can't be emrged
<jeromeg> this delta is really a pain
<gpocentek> (+1)
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> So, before we move on was there any items of consensus that was reached and I've missed besides the performance targets?
<cody-somerville> (and besides that moving patches upstream is important)
<charlie-tca> I don't think so?
<cody-somerville> Ok, we're behind schedule so I'm going to list off the remaining topics and could people please list a small number of them that you feel needs to be discussed.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu Team Structures, Xubuntu Governance, Dispute Resolution, Communication, Xubuntu development coordination, release cycle, Xubuntu Seeds & package composition, Development dispute resolution, what-ever-we-have-and-would-like-to-get-off-our-chest, other.
<cody-somerville> and I also forgot "instigating growth" (how can we grow the community?).
<jeromeg> I think that as long as the community is reduced we should keep with the basis
<jeromeg> triage bugs, fix bugs, integrate new upstream releases
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu documentors - will they become a separate entity from Ubuntu-documentation team?
 * cody-somerville nods.
<Odd-rationale> i gtg. Thanks cody-somerville! good bye everyone!
<cody-somerville> I'd like to discuss bug triage as well along with Xubuntu team structure, and Xubuntu seeds & composition.
<daigorobr> I'm most interested in seeds and composition
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> gpocentek, mr_pouit ?
<gpocentek> what do you want to discuss?
<gpocentek> about bug triaging
 * sectech is curious about the triaging
<cody-somerville> gpocentek, Well, one of the major complaints it seems from jeromeg and yourself is the lack of bug triage that is taking place.
<cody-somerville> I'd be interested in discussing how we can improve the situation.
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: you can triage bugs
<gpocentek> cody-somerville: the problem is always the same, we are 3 contributors
<gpocentek> that's it
<cody-somerville> I also think it would be helpful for us to agree on a way we denote a bug "release critical".
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, hmm?
<sectech> Now that I come to think of it, I haven't run across a specific xubuntu bug while triaging.
<cody-somerville> sectech, Actually, you have.
<cody-somerville> sectech, Lionel marked a bug you had triaged as a duplicate of another bug the other day.
<cody-somerville> ;]
<cody-somerville> gpocentek, Well, lets see how we can increase that number.
<sectech> Ahh... I need to go through my email again it seems
<cody-somerville> At one time, we had atleast 4-6 people doing bug triage IIRC.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: huh ?
<jeromeg> 4 to 6 ?
<daigorobr> Hrm, I think I can help. At least in finding duplicates.
<jeromeg> you mean mr_pouit  mr_pouit  mr_pouit  gpocentek  gpocentek  and gpocentek  ?
<daigorobr> Not a real programmer (actually a physician), but will do my best.
<charlie-tca> I'm not a programmer or developer, but can I help?
<jeromeg> daigorobr: you don't need to know anything about programming to triage bugs
<jeromeg> charlie-tca: yes
<sectech> No, no you don't... I am a good example of that :P
<daigorobr> jeromeg: see, there are some things thtat you have to know the inner functioning to triage and forward properly.
<charlie-tca> a couple of hours a day, 3 times a week?
<jeromeg> charlie-tca: as you want
<sectech> charlie-tca, as much or as little as you want
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, I have to admit that I really don't find your negative attitude helpful. I think if we want positive results, we need to act positive as well.
<daigorobr> ;me nods
<daigorobr> Ops.
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: I'm not negative, I'm realistic
<mr_pouit> but thinking that people would come by magic isn't a good atitude either :]
<cody-somerville> People won't come by magic.
<daigorobr> jermoeg: you're on the half-empty side. But that's okay, I think.
<cody-somerville> My strategy is generate buzz, energy, and excitement about getting involved with Xubuntu.
<cody-somerville> Organizing bug days
<jeromeg> daigorobr: the inner of bug triaging isn't really programming, it's more protocol
<cody-somerville> Bug jams
<cody-somerville> And other fun stuff
<zoredache> so where is the 'protocol' documented?  Is that linked to from the xubuntu contributors page?
<daigorobr> I agree with cody that you have to grow the user base to grow the contributors base. So the distro has to be fun and interesting (and up to date).
<gpocentek> zoredache: look for 'bugsquad' in the wiki
<jeromeg> zoredache: look for bug triaging on the ubuntu wiki
<cody-somerville> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: thanks
<jeromeg> zoredache: the protocol is the same for all ubuntu packages
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: the problem with buzz is that it's buzz
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, it certainly won't sustain Xubuntu, correct :)
<zoredache> ok, so back to my the second part of my question... should that be linked to from http://www.xubuntu.org/devel#qa?  Because I don't see it there
<sectech> One question... If you guys want to triage, are you going to only be going for the xubuntu bugs? and if so, how will you know it's specific to xubuntu?
<jeromeg> sectech: well, you can do what you want
<jeromeg> sectech: to know if it's specific to xubuntu
<gpocentek> sectech: you'll learn while triaging
<jeromeg> or it's already known
<jeromeg> or you can't reproduce it with sometihng else than xubuntu
<jeromeg> anyway, if you forward upstream a bug that is xubuntu only
<sectech> gpo, I am on bug-control...  they all are treated the same pretty much to me (I don't go for one type of type of distro)
<jeromeg> the devs won't kill you
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Xubuntu Community | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam
<jeromeg> they'll tell you it's caused by one of our patches
<cody-somerville> A helpful page: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team/+packagebugs
<jeromeg> and close the bug
 * cody-somerville tackles jeromeg :P
<jeromeg> thanks cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, no discouraging people :P
<jeromeg> if one does not feel confident enough to triage bugs
<jeromeg> only testing and reporting bugs is appreciated
 * cody-somerville nods nods.
<jeromeg> (if there is someone else to triage)
<cody-somerville> Ok, zoredache, sectech, daigorobr: You all want to get involved? :)
<jeromeg> the Hardy release was particularly painful because there were no bugs reported
<jeromeg> the seeds were broken during a few weeks because no one reported it...
<jeromeg> zoredache, sectech, daigorobr: I advise you to start little by little
<sectech> brb a sec
<jeromeg> and do not hesitate to ask questions
<zoredache> I suspect I will try to help.  That bug triage page is useful.
<jeromeg> zoredache: indeed, it links to a lot of useful stuff
<charlie-tca> Ask questions where?
<jeromeg> #ubuntu-bugs
<jeromeg> #ubuntu-motu
<jeromeg> #xubuntu-devel
<jeromeg> #xfce to know if other people have the same bug with a different distro
<cody-somerville> I strongly recommend hanging out in #xubuntu-devel
<cody-somerville> And feel free to bug me with questions and what not
<cody-somerville> I'm very eager to see more contributors join our ranks :)
<jeromeg> mr_pouit and gpocentek are also very helpful
 * cody-somerville nods.
<jeromeg> don't hesitate to ask something to them ;)
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit and gpocentek are both core-devs so they're very knowledgeable. jeromeg himself is a very talented bug triager and has developed an art to dealing with upstream so be sure to bug him too :)
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: well, as I'm only on #xfce, and #xfce-dev I'm quite ahrd to reach for english speaking users
<cody-somerville> If there is anything we can do that you feel would make it easier for future contributors to get involved, please take initiative to make it so or discuss it! :)
<jeromeg> but feel free to mail me
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, I can help you configure your client to auto-join #xubuntu-devel ;]
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: it used to do so, but my hands removed this line ;)
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, ;]
<cody-somerville> Anyhow, what about marking bugs release critical?
<daigorobr> #xubuntu devel it is, then
<cody-somerville> Whats the best way to do this in everyone's opinion?
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: use a launchpad tag ?
<jeromeg> or simpler
<jeromeg> put [Xubuntu] at the beginning of the bug title
<jeromeg> and mark it as critical
<sectech> About the bug triaging...  I really can't be specific (in all fairness) to give priority to xubuntu bugs, but I certainly will keep an eye out for them
<sectech> jeromeg, ... please don't do that lol
<daigorobr> are you people talking about tagging as release blocker?
<jeromeg> sectech: why ?
<jeromeg> daigorobr: indeed
<cody-somerville> slangasek, Whats your opinion?
<slangasek> cody-somerville: ... waving (?)
<sectech> jeromeg,  If your going to triage, it might be best to follow the wiki on setting status/importance.
<slangasek> what am I being asked to have an opinion on?
<cody-somerville> slangasek, marking release critical or release important bugs
<slangasek> uh... it's a good idea to mark bugs as release-critical when they're release-critical? :-)
<jeromeg> sectech: well, nobody cares about xfce packages, so if a bug is critical for an xfce package, mark it as critical ;)
<cody-somerville> slangasek, How is that currently denoted?
<cody-somerville> slangasek, There is milestones and targets
<slangasek> if you're talking about bug importances, the 'critical' importance is not the right way to set that...
<sectech> slangasek,  when they are indeed critical then of course... but I believe jeromeg is talking about taking any bug that related to xubuntu and marking them critical
<slangasek> cody-somerville: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RCBugTargetting is the process I'm currently following, though it's not formally ratified
<jeromeg> sectech: nope, only critical ones ;)
<jeromeg> i'm not that stupid
<jeromeg> ;)
<slangasek> cody-somerville: I think that gives you lots of room to maneuver as far as tracking bugs that are critical to you as a team
<daigorobr> I think we should tag it as Xubuntu and follow the default procedure
<sectech> I am getting the impression that there is a difference here though when you say "critical"....  Critical to the use of the application as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance or "critical to releasing xubuntu"?
<slangasek> and there can certainly be cases where a bug should be nominated & milestoned (i.e., put on the RM's radar) if it's on a xubuntu-only package; as long as everyone understands that this mainly just makes me pester xubuntu people more about fixing it, it doesn't automatically inspire other people to work on the bug :-)
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> slangasek, How can we easily see a list of bugs that are RC?
<jeromeg> sectech: for me critcal to release xubuntu = set it to a milestone and critical = set it as critical
<cody-somerville> slangasek, (for Xubuntu only)
<daigorobr> I have to disagree with the concept of "xubuntu-only packages"
<jeromeg> daigorobr: what do you mean ?
<slangasek> cody-somerville: um, I guess you would need to tag the bugs and filter on your tag
<jeromeg> cody-somerville: I think the mozilla-tema odes something like that
<daigorobr> They're xubuntu deafult installed packages, but for exemple, I used to use a gnome session with xfce4 panel and pcmanfm for desktop.
<daigorobr> It's all Ubuntu packages, but critical for us.
<daigorobr> But it is only a semantic rant.
<jeromeg> daigorobr: well, bugs are reported against a package, whatever distro you used to get it
<daigorobr> Exactly.
<sectech> "Critical" as per the wiki is different then what you are suggesting jeromeg
<daigorobr> So I think we could tag those that are important for us, but follow the procedures.
<sectech> jeromeg,  which is where we start getting into workflow issues
<cjwatson> it's three minutes until the scheduled platform team meeting; should we wait a few minutes until you're finished, or will we need to move elsewhere?
<cjwatson> (happy to do either)
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, we'll move.
<daigorobr> xubuntu-dev?
<cody-somerville> xubuntu-devel, aye
<cjwatson> don't let me chase you out if you're making good progress here
<cody-somerville> :)
<jeromeg> sectech: critical for me = not working at all on most computers
<slangasek> jeromeg: the "critical" bug importance has a defined meaning which is different from whether a bug is a blocker for a release ("release-critical")
<calc> hi
<jeromeg> slangasek: yep, that's why I suggested to affect release critical bugs to a milestone
 * asac waves
<evand> hi
<cody-somerville> moo
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<evand> heh
 * slangasek waves
 * ogra waves
 * cjwatson idly prods the topic-bot
<bryce> heya
<james_w> hi all.
<liw> greetingses
<cjwatson> Arne is on holiday, doko is travelling, so I think that's everyone
<doko> I'm still online
<cjwatson> doko: oh good, hello
<cjwatson> first off, I wanted to give a brief state-of-the-onion on alpha 1
<cjwatson> there's still a large number of merges to do, and I think a lot of them have been delayed by people working on 8.04.1
<cjwatson> however, we are at least far enough through that the desktop is installable and the installer is threatening to work
<cjwatson> there are some initial CD images up at least for alternate which may stand a chance of sort of working
<cjwatson> desktop CD is probably a ways off yet
<cjwatson> but I think it will probably make sense to do an alpha in the next week or so, assuming that Steve and the QA folks have a bit of bandwidth to deal with testing
<cjwatson> (it can be pretty minimal for a first alpha)
<calc> i guess someone will be updating the release schedule once alpha 1 has been released?
<cjwatson> mdz reminded me earlier today that alpha 2 is currently scheduled for the same day as 8.04.1, which is probably suboptimal. Anyone object to moving it one week later?
<cjwatson> calc: yes
 * calc will be watching it closely for timing information on OOo uploads
<calc> ok
<TheMuso> No objections here.
<asac> makes sense
<slangasek> cjwatson: I think moving alpha 2 a week later is the right thing here, yes
<calc> makes sense to have some gap between a1 and a2 as well
<cjwatson> done
<calc> since it would be back to back weeks otherwise
<cjwatson> ok then, outstanding actions from last week
<cjwatson> lots of these, thanks to bryce's careful minuting :)
<cjwatson> I'll just run down them quickly
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: asac to make an informational spec out of intel connection
<cjwatson>    manager session notes
<asac> that one needs to be pushed back. still have it on my list, but considered it not high prio
<cjwatson> ok, carried over
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: asac + slangasek to discuss inclusion of ffox 3.0 final in
<cjwatson>    the final 8.04.1 CD's
<cjwatson> that's done, AFAICS?
<slangasek> yes
<asac> done. 3.0 is out. yes
<cjwatson> well done for getting it into -updates on release day
<asac> :)
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: calc to make an informational spec for the ooo release
<cjwatson>    schedule session notes
 * ogra applauds
<calc> done
<cjwatson> calc: I see a spec now - perhaps also add something in the form of a calendar? I think that would be useful for comparison
<calc> cjwatson: ok will do
<cjwatson> thanks for the spec, though
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: calc to provide updated OOo priority reports to Sun
<bryce> asac, kudos :-)
<calc> working on that still, its more or less on a per bug basis
<calc> doesn't really need to be an action item anymore afaict though
<doko> well, keep it one until an email is sent out to the OOoo people
<cjwatson> but some updates have happened since last week, at least?
<calc> some but still have lots to do on that front
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: cjwatson to locate notes for ooo-langpack spec
<cjwatson> I just spent a moment looking for these, and I'm afraid to say I don't seem to have any
<cjwatson> calc: can you reconstruct from memory?
<calc> i can try, its been about a month so i will see what i can remember
<calc> i'll write it up and see what you and doko can add it to from memory of the three of us :)
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: cjwatson to review Ago's wubi spec and decide assignment
<cjwatson> evand: while I'm still in the process of reviewing specs in general, I can't actually find this one
<evand> hrm
 * evand digs
<cjwatson> it's not on blueprints.launchpad.net/~ago
<ogra> probably assigned to a team ....
<evand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiIntrepid
<cjwatson> ah, not LP-linked
<evand> I don't think he made a blueprint for it.  I mentioned it a while back to him.
<evand> indeed
<cjwatson> thanks, needs a good bit of work as a lot of that is still a pre-session dump
<cjwatson> ok, carry that action over and I'll look at it
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: evand to draft oem-system-recovery spec
<evand> Still in the process of writing this one up.  It's taking me longer than I'd like as the only thing I have to go off of is a poor audio recording from the session, and I can't find a gobby session for it.
<cjwatson> I think I was out for that session, so unfortunately I can't help
<cjwatson> carried over
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: doko to investigate if MoM's host machines has the disk space
<cjwatson>    to do Testing and/or Experimental merges
<doko> not yet done
<cjwatson> ok, it's something you were interested in the answer to so it makes sense to stay on your plate I think
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: [Volunteer Needed] to write the boot-performance spec
<cjwatson> I don't think anyone stepped up for this
<asac> who was in that session?
<liw> I think I was
<ogra> that somehow turned into fix mobile bootprobs
<cjwatson> liw: you've had ~7 specs to write up already, though
<liw> cjwatson, yeah
<TheMuso> I was in that session.
<TheMuso> Given good gobby notes, I could have a stab at it.
<cjwatson> the notes are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid/Report/Platform
<cjwatson> (as mentioned in the minutes last week)
<TheMuso> Right.
 * cody-somerville volunteers Keybuk.
<cjwatson> it's a little vague, and might need a chat with Keybuk to flesh out
<ogra> yeah
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: he has a lot to do reviewing specs already, though :(
<cjwatson> TheMuso: it's yours
<cjwatson> thanks
<ogra> he would be best for it though
<TheMuso> Ok I'll have a look over the notes and take things from there.
<cjwatson> he would, but it might be more practical to have somebody else suck his brains over IRC and write down the answers
<cjwatson> for the moment
<ogra> yeah
<Keybuk> mmm, Brains
<cjwatson> oh, hello Scott :-)
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: Everyone not occupied with 8.04.1, spec writing, or urgent
<cjwatson>    matters should focus on getting merge queue down
<cjwatson> the merge queue is beginning to scare me a little bit, given the deadline for next week
<cjwatson> 211 outstanding merges
<Keybuk> it's not _that_ bad, at similar points in previous releases, we've only been slightly less behind
<cody-somerville> I'll see what I can do this last half of the week.
<Keybuk> but it's obviously non-zero ;)
<cjwatson> on December 5 (a week and a day before hardy merges were due to be complete), needs-merge=174
<cjwatson> so I suppose not too much worse, but still indicates we're behind
<liw> cjwatson, what should we do about that? put more effort into processing merges?
<cjwatson> anyone need help here?
<cody-somerville> I do
<cody-somerville> Bug #232364 is not being friendly to me :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 232364 in dbus "dbus-launch freezes for unknown reason at session start" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/232364
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: is that a merge issue?
<cjwatson> I have to admit I hadn't even looked at the universe merge queue yet
<doko> well, I'm catching up, but maybe it's worth for the future not to list the uploader for mass/rebuild uploads (ok, that's selfish ;)
<cjwatson> doko: I understand that it's possible for people with shell access to merges.u.c to override this ... ;-)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community
<doko> gotcha
<james_w> I have a question about one: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lvm2/+bug/239460
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 239460 in lvm2 "Please update lvm2 to 2.02.38" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Unfortunately no but I'd certainly be doing merges if I wasn't trying to fix that one ;]
<james_w> I was touched-it-last as I cherry picked a small change just before release. I know very little about the package, but I did the merge. I submitted the merge request to get the bug number, and a red hat guy is obviously subscribed to the bug mail, and he suggested that we take a later version.
<asac> james_w: he doesnt really provide much backup for his claim. but maybe worth to select the version with care
<cjwatson> on the one hand, absolute stability is less important than it might be at this stage
<cjwatson> on the other, no sense introducing wilful breakage
<james_w> that's how I'm proceeding now, is that right? There's a small kink in that I don't feel comfortable in testing it, as I don't run any systems on lvm.
<cjwatson> I think it's reasonable to work with the Debian maintainer on this
<liw> james_w, can you run kvm? if so, setting up an lvm system should be fairly easy
<james_w> yeah, I wasn't sure if he thought this was for release or something, but it's good to know, as Debian aren't guaranteed (or perhaps even likely) to update.
<james_w> liw: not kvm, but yes, I can do that, but I'm not sure how much assurance that gives.
<cjwatson> kvm should be OK for lvm
<cjwatson> (it's only one character away!)
<james_w> cjwatson: yep, I've filed an upgrade request, and I'm going to give it a bit longer to see if there is any response.
<james_w> heh, is one test system enough with root-on-lvm?
<cjwatson> I think it's OK for this to stretch a little longer past the merge deadline, anyway; lvm2 is something that tends to get a decent level of attention
<liw> if lvm2 breaks, we'll hear it from slashdot, if not launchpad
<bryce> will the merge deadline be affected by the alpha-1/alpha-2 rescheduling?
<cjwatson> not significantly, I'd expect; alpha-1 doesn't require too much in the way of freezing
<cjwatson> it's always been an "if it works, consider yourself lucky" kind of deal
 * bryce nods
<cody-somerville> ermm... what deadline next week btw?
<bryce> cody-somerville: debian merges
<cody-somerville> It is the Debian Import Freeze, not debian merge deadline :P
<cjwatson> at DebianImportFreeze, each package ought to have been merged at least once
<ogra> merges should be done by then by definition
<cjwatson> see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Debian/ImportFreeze
<cjwatson> (CategoryDebian? huh?)
<cody-somerville> So there is 211 packages that haven't been merged at all yet?
<cody-somerville> *are
<cjwatson> yes
<cjwatson> in main
<cody-somerville> Ah, I thought that was all pending merges.
<cody-somerville> I understand your concern a little better now
<cjwatson> that's what the "outstanding merges" bit means (well, actually, it roughly means hasn't been touched in Ubuntu since the new Debian version arrived, so a non-merge Ubuntu upload would also move it down to "updated merges")
<cjwatson> anyway, I'll send a reminder to ubuntu-devel-announce
<liw> DebianImportFreeze is on Thursday next week, if I read the calendar correctly
<cjwatson> we can't magic up extra effort, but can try to chivvy people along
<cjwatson> liw: correct
<bryce> I've pretty much got all the xorg merges done for the time being so I can lend a hand with general merges over the next week
<cjwatson> core developers could help by keeping an eye on the main sponsorship queues
<cjwatson>  * ACTION: Everyone to make travel arrangements for Distro sprint
<TheMuso> Done.
<cjwatson> I'm poking you so that Claire won't have to. :)
<liw> (coreutils should be ready for merging, unless I did something wrong)
<asac> done
<TheMuso> Just have to sort out getting from airport to hotel, but I'll probably email warthogs to ask if people are able to lend a hand...
<liw> have flights, waiting for bag...
<cjwatson> asac: please update wiki.c.c/DistroTeam/Sprints/Intrepid
<TheMuso> ah yes of course
<james_w> cjwatson: I assume those of us in the UK can delay a bit?
<liw> TheMuso, do you know when you're arriving?
<TheMuso> liw: Early the Sunday morning.
<TheMuso> And I mean early. :)
<cjwatson> james_w: if you're just getting the train over, not a problem
<james_w> thansk
<liw> TheMuso, then I am probably not of much help, I'm arriving in the afternoon
<cjwatson> I assume you are, flying Bristol->London is a bit ridiculous unless you're a private pilot and want some flying time :)
<slangasek> heh
<cjwatson> TheMuso: Brian and Steve arrive at 0900, apparently
<TheMuso> liw: Thanks anyway.
<cjwatson> (Steve Beattie)
<TheMuso> cjwatson: Unfortunately its somewhat earlier than that, I only had two choices for flights, and both got in about the same time./
<evand> I arrive at 0840 :/
<cjwatson>  * Location of minutes
<TheMuso> Anyway, I'll send an email to warthogs about it.
<cjwatson> a few people have said that meeting notes should go to ubuntu-devel, which I think is reasonable - this meeting is in a public channel anyway and I think at least some of it would be useful
<cjwatson> any objections?
<bryce> nope, I can ship them thataway
<liw> cjwatson, I'm all for that
<Keybuk> cjwatson: in which case, you'd know you can't land anywhere near London anyway ;-(
<cjwatson> bryce: if you could also stick them on wiki.u.c somewhere for archival, that'd be good
<TheMuso> Sounds fine to me re on -devel.
<bryce> cjwatson: ok, I've been sticking them on wiki.canonical.com so far
<cjwatson> those that were in public channels to start with can be moved, if you give the minutes a quick sanity-check for obvious partner discussions or whatever first
<cjwatson> so agreed, then
<cjwatson> any other business?
<liw> good Midsummer!
<TheMuso> If you use alsa apps on hardy regularly, please test with the alsa-lib in proposed.
<TheMuso> We're pondering using alsa-lib 1.0.16 for 8.04.1, but it needs lots of testing...
<cjwatson> yes, AIUI this is the biggest undecided thing for .1
<asac> TheMuso: just general testing or is there anything we should focus on?
<TheMuso> cjwatson: Indeed.
<slangasek> asac: we're in need of rather broad regression testing
<slangasek> i.e., "try it and tell us if it's broke"
<liw> we could announce an attempt to break firefox's download record...
<slangasek> heh
 * calc thinks we don't have enough bandwidth for that
<cjwatson> everyone here should be using hardy-proposed on hardy systems anyway :-)
<cjwatson> but please do check out sound in general and report back
<cjwatson> (FWIW I have seen - heard! - no regressions as yet)
<liw> none of my ubuntu machines have sound :(
<calc> 543 gigabit connection to break that for an iso ;-)
<asac> i am quite a lame sound user and i have no sophisicated sound setup
<cjwatson> three minutes before time and it sounds like we're pretty much done, so adjourned
<cjwatson> thanks all
<asac> thanks all
<TheMuso> thanks folks./
<slangasek> thanks
 * TheMuso gets breakfast
<james_w> thanks
<liw> danke schÃ¶n
<bryce> thanks
<evand> thanks
<calc> thanks
<cody-somerville> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-19
<bryce> [minutes will be up shortly...]
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam
<ace_suares> hi anyone can bring me in contact with a speaker from canoncial for an open source conference ?
<Hobbsee> ace_suares: speak to jono (he's on irc)
<ace_suares> Hobbsee: Hi ! ty i'll contact.
<pitti> hey hey
<kwwii> hi
<Hobbsee> oh noes, a pitti and a kwwii!
 * pitti throws a chocolate bar at Hobbsee
<pedro_> hi
<MacSlow> yo there
<kwwii> pitti: thanks for all the help with the hardy packages, I owe you a drink :-)
<Keybuk> mvo, Riddell, seb128: ping
<pitti> kwwii: heh, no problem
<Riddell> hi
<mvo> hello
<pitti> was just talking to seb in -devel
<Hobbsee> pitti: \o/
<seb128> Keybuk: hey
<Keybuk> ok, let's get started
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-06-19
<Keybuk> I actually put together the meeting agenda this time ;-)
<MacSlow> hey mpt
<seb128> Keybuk: let's see if you manage to write minutes too ;-)
<Keybuk> I didn't note any actions from last week's meeting, did anyone think they took one?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, the GtkStatusIcon/Tray-Icon stuff is solved?
<mpt> Sorry, I didn't realize I was expected in the meetings until I was actually spending time on Ubuntu :-)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: I was going to ask you ;-)
<Keybuk> mpt: you're not expected, but welcome to attend if you wish ;P
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I didn't remove it
<Keybuk> MacSlow: err?  missing context here
<seb128> I think he's speaking about the action item for this one
<Keybuk> ah, right
<Keybuk> [14:19] <MacSlow> Keybuk, I can try to ask around my contacts at Imendio to see if they have some short-term hireable man-power left over, ok?
<MacSlow> last time I looked (earlier this day) there still was a buttlet-point regarding the tray-icon spec and GtkStatusIcon issue in regards to RGBA-theme-engines (murrine)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: did you ask around?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, yeah... but I didn't get any responses sofar... only from Ryan and he's only available no earlier than september
<Keybuk> MacSlow: do you think that it's worth continuing to ask around?
<Keybuk> can you think of any other approaches to solve the problem?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, drop RGBA for intrepid is the only "solution" I currently see :/
<ogra> Keybuk, there should be a good bunch of free OLPC people now, probably there is someone mong them
<ogra> *among
<Keybuk> MacSlow: you don't know anybody who could do the work, including yourself?
<Keybuk> does the murrine author not have any input?
<Keybuk> could the panel simply be not transparent? :p
<mpt> A transparent panel? Why?
<kwwii> until now I have not set it to be transparent anyway (and had no immediate plans to do so)
<kwwii> until now only a few apps can do rgba natively anyway :-(
<Keybuk> I'm maybe missing why this is a critical blocker
<MacSlow> Keybuk, well I probably could, but considering the time I've left to deliver the face-browser... I don't see me getting the tray-icon spec and GtkStatusIcon fixed before Feature/UI freeze for Intrepid
<mpt> I thought the idea was to make panel items work against an opaque-but-not-necessarily-flat-color panel
<Keybuk> MacSlow: if we don't get changes to gtkstatusicon, what does that mean?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, but like I said... my lack of experience in that domain will cause me to take quite some time on it
<kwwii> mpt: yeah, that is part of it as well
<Keybuk> MacSlow: it's your call ;)
<MacSlow> Keybuk, we will not be able to have RGBA as default colormap for every created GTK+-widget... that will cause the the notification-area to go "haywire"
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I rather stick to the face-browser and do scheduled work
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> solved then :-)
<MacSlow> Keybuk, if we want some RGBA in GTK+-apps still for intrepid we'll have to do it on a per-app basis... e.g. just like I did for the dialogs of libgksu, gnome-session logout
<Keybuk> yours is the next agenda item too
<Keybuk>  * MacSlow: Clutter version
<Keybuk> For gdm-face-browser clutter-0.7/0.8 is needed, but from debian we only get 0.6.x
<seb128> update ;-)
<MacSlow> there are a lot of nice fixes in 0.7/0.8
<seb128> nothing is using it in the archive anyway so that's not going to create issues
<pitti> that's just a library, shouldn't be too hard?
<Keybuk> seems a no-brainer
<MacSlow> and I already started doing a PPA for clutter/clutter-cairo/clutter-gtk 0.7~svn20080619
<Keybuk> MacSlow: update clutter at your leisure
<MacSlow> and for intpreid most are compiled aready...
<MacSlow> but for the some days to come I'll stick to hardy on my desktop box for coding
<mvo> MacSlow: you could upload it to your ppa against hardy
<MacSlow> I'll have to cut the -doc stuff atm, because that would collide if installed in parallel with clutter 0.6.x & Co
<Keybuk> MacSlow: don't worry about parallel install
<MacSlow> mvo, I'm about to do that... but then meeting time came :)
<Keybuk> just update the package
<seb128> we don't need to install in parallel
<mvo> I initially suggested to have them installable in parallel, but maybe we don't need that
<seb128> nothing is using 0.6 anyway
<MacSlow> seb128, Keybuk: well but I want to do it right :)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: doing it right is updating the package ;)
<MacSlow> seb128, indeed
<seb128> doing it right is not keeping old non maintainer code in the archive
<seb128> so just update
<MacSlow> Keybuk, what's nearly done already :)
<seb128> s/maintainer/maintained
<MacSlow> Keybuk, first time package-training really paid off for me :)
<Keybuk> ok, action for you:
<Keybuk>  * MacSlow to update clutter to appropriate version, not worrying about parallel install
<MacSlow> if anybody is interested -> https://edge.launchpad.net/~macslow/+archive
<MacSlow> outch clutter-gtk quirked
<seb128> MacSlow: feel free to ask questions on #ubuntu-desktop if you have issues during the update
<MacSlow> ok
<MacSlow> seb128, sure... thanks!
<Keybuk> nothing I can see in the sponsoring queue that requires attention
<Keybuk> and no desktop bug list for intrepid yet
<Keybuk> Merges.
<seb128> "clean your items before than Daniel jump from a roof because there is too many things to sponsor"? ;-)
<pitti> "scott (41)" ... tsk :)
 * MacSlow rushes to the loo
 * kwwii hopes he makes it
<pitti> but we really don't want to keep readahead-list, do we?
<Keybuk> pitti: I keep unsubscribing the team, and he keeps putting it back
<pitti> Keybuk: right, what I figure; we want prefetch in intrepid for real?
<pitti> (pleeease...)
<Keybuk> maybe
<Keybuk> prefetch is ...
<Keybuk> well, let's talk about that outside of the meeting if you're interested ;)
<Keybuk> anywa
<pitti> right
<Keybuk> MERGES
<Keybuk> 200+ to go
<MacSlow> kwwii, Du Tuppes! :)
<Keybuk> and not long left to do them
<mvo> 203!
<Keybuk> all hands on deck for them please, including MacSlow ;)
 * pitti is happy that he grinded through all of his now
<pitti> but I can help out with some others if required
 * mvo is attacking them since this morning
<MacSlow> Keybuk, what does that mean?
<Keybuk> MacSlow: http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<seb128> speaking about those there is quite some done by contributors waiting for sponsoring ;-)
<mvo> (well since a couple of days of course, but with more force since this morning)
 * ogra wonders if tedg is on vacation, there is a xscreensaver merge sitting on MOM
<mvo> I think seb128 has a point, we should go over our sponsoring tiem again
<seb128> ogra: there is a sponsor request open for this one
<ogra> i was perpared to upload that for him ...
<Keybuk> ogra: he's moving house
<ogra> seb128, well, i didnt see any yay or nay from ted on it
 * mvo is guilty of letting those slip too
<seb128> ogra: bug #229618 has your name on the sponsoring list
<Keybuk> seb128: Colin already covered those last night ;)
<Keybuk> unless there's new ones that I missed
<ogra> seb128, yes, i asked dholbach  million times to not put me on it but ted, i dont do xss gss since 3 releases now
<seb128> ogra: ted doesn't have upload rights to sponsor it though
<ogra> seb128, right, but he should review it
<seb128> alright
<pitti> so I volunteer for going over the list and pick a few from non-canonical folks, but I don't want to do too many any more; I spent plenty of time on merges already
<MacSlow> How is it decided who does what?
<dholbach> ogra: subscribed Ted - excusez-moi
<Keybuk> MacSlow: do any that you can
<Keybuk> and don't feel limited by packages you've touched before
<dholbach> ogra: and "million times" is a bit much
<Keybuk> merges are a great way to learn packaging
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I expected a comment like this :)
<ogra> dholbach, well, three i think, sorry if i wouldnt be that busy i would have pinged him already, not really your fault :)
<Keybuk> do people want to go down the merge list and assign them out?
<MacSlow> what's with the color-coding there?
<Keybuk> or are you happy to grab them as you can?
<Keybuk> MacSlow: mostly meaningless
 * mvo is happy with just grabbing them
 * MacSlow has no idea what to address...
<pitti> MacSlow: if you have questions about whether a patch is still necessary, procedure, or sponsoring, feel free to ask me; if you merge, you'll eventually learn more about packaging, indeed
<MacSlow> but I feel I don't want to tackle huge stuff like gcc or gimp
 * MacSlow is scared like hell
<pitti> MacSlow: that's the package's Priority: field, but it's not very interesting
<mvo> MacSlow: gtk+!
<Keybuk> MacSlow: gimp should be easy for you, it's just a GTK+ app with a couple of small patches
<pitti> MacSlow: nah, start with easy stuff
<Keybuk> and it looks like there's a bug in the sponsor queue for it already ;)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: planner (another small GTK+ app)
<MacSlow> oh... I'll do gtkglext!
<Keybuk> gnome-pilot-conduits
<dholbach> gimp is in the sponsoring queue already - who wants it?
<MacSlow> and I'll take on gimp then
<Keybuk> dholbach: macslow
<Keybuk> gnumeric?  that's only a small patch
 * MacSlow grows bold
<Keybuk> gnome-netstatus also
<dholbach> gimp is in the SPONSORING QUEUE already :-)
<MacSlow> dholbach, which means?
<Keybuk> MacSlow: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<dholbach> MacSlow: the merge is done, waits for a review and upload
<Keybuk> MacSlow: someone's already done the work, it just needs a review and an upload
 * dholbach hugs Keybuk
<MacSlow> ah ok
<ember> dholbach i've filled that a minutes ago
<Keybuk> MacSlow: that's a handful that should be easily doable by you :p
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> any other business for today?
<seele> yes
<pitti> packagekit
<Keybuk> seele: what's your agenda item?
<MacSlow> dholbach, I tell you which merges I want to tackle?
<Keybuk> pitti: explain?
<Keybuk> MacSlow: no, just go ahead and do them
<seele> Keybuk: jono pinged me back to you about usability testing swag for participants
<seele> Keybuk: not sure if he talked ot you or not
<dholbach> MacSlow: no, not necessary - I'll take care once it's in the sponsoring queue
<pitti> I wanted to ask around who else is insterested in getting PK working in intrepid soon
<Keybuk> seele: he asked me if I thought it was a good idea, I said yes
<pitti> personally I'd really like to get it for jockey, and I need it for getting rid of more gksu desktop files
<pitti> ATM it's in pretty non-working shape, so if we want it, we need to allocate some resources to it
<pitti> I'm interested in doing it, but I wanted to know who else needs it, and maybe help out
<james_w> pitti: I've got it vaguely working on a machine here.
<pitti> james_w: 0.2.2? on intrepid then?
 * pitti currently installs intrepid to try it out
<james_w> pitti: i.e. pkcon install whatever works.
<pitti> james_w: wow, didn't work for me; let's talk aobut it in #u-devel after the meeting, if you like?
<mvo> pitti: there is a bzr report/git repo for that with the 0.2.x branch
<james_w> pitti: intrepid, and something around 0.2.2, with a couple of patches to the apt backend.
<james_w> pitti: sure.
<seele> Keybuk: ok.. we were hoping to do this mid-July.  is it possible to get something by then or is it too soon?
<pitti> ah, ok
<seele> Keybuk: shoudl i go back to jono about this now that you've blessed it?
<Keybuk> seele: I'm not going to have any capacity to help with it, so Jono is your best bet
<seele> Keybuk: ok thanks
<Keybuk> seele: my blessing isn't required ;)  I don't have budget approval
<mvo> james_w: is your branch based on the git branch of glatzor?
<Keybuk> pitti: sounds like it needs more testing to determine what work is required?
<pitti> Keybuk: yeah; I'll talk with James and try to get it working for me first, then I'll talk to glatzor about updating the package to 0.2.2
<Keybuk> pitti: ok, great
<james_w> mvo: no, on trunk
<pitti> it was mainly an "oh, I need that too" straw poll
 * mvo nods
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> any other any other business? :-)
<seb128> pitti: gnome-control-center 2.23 upstream code can use it to install themes, that would be nice to have too
<pitti> seb128, mvo: it would be useful for upstreamizing easy-codec-installation, too, I figure?
<seb128> yes
<seb128> though we have a working solution there so that's not high priority
<mvo> pitti: yes, we just need to solve the problem to figure out how the packages are called on different plattforms
<mvo> distros I mean
<mvo> but that is a general pk problem
<pitti> right, at least the UI part, I mean
<mvo> yes
<pitti> mvo: maybe with particular provides? "Provides: video-codec-mpeg-4" or whatever
<pitti> mvo: that's similar how OpenSuSE and RedHat encode driver vendor/product IDs to pacakges
<ogra> pitti, i think plokit should be fixed before we rely on it wth more apps ... the missing password caching is *massively* nnoying
<ogra> *polkit
<pitti> password caching?
<pitti> first time I hear about such a problem? what is the problem?
<mvo> pitti: yeah, I think there are some plans for this from debian already, so that fits nicely
<ogra> you have to give your password for *every* action ... unlike gksu which caches it for 10 min
<pitti> ogra: no, that's not true
<Keybuk> ogra: that's configurable in the policy
<ogra> well, then we should fix the policy
<pitti> you can say that you keep a privilege for the session, or forever
<Keybuk> ogra: which policy requires you to prompt each time?
<pitti> it's a checkbox, and mostly enabled by default
<ogra> david told me in prague it wouldnt be possible at al since he thinks its a sceurity breach
<Keybuk> ogra: I think you possibly confused him by referring to it as password caching
<ogra> but if thats possible now, i'm fine, lets just enable it
<Keybuk> when what you really meant was that PK authorizations shouldn't expire immediately
<pitti> it's already there
<ogra> for me it asks every time here on a clean hardy
<Keybuk> ogra: for which authorization?
* foobottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam
<ogra> Keybuk, any that polkit is involved with
<Keybuk> ogra: not true
<james_w> g-s-t uses auth_admin, not auth_admin_keep_*, so they will show it
<pitti> yes, for g-s-t
<Keybuk> each authorization is configured differently
<ogra> open time-admin ... click on unlock ... close time-admin
<Keybuk> g-s-t does happen to just use "Admin Authentication"
<pitti> but that's just g-s-t's very weird usage of PK
<ogra> you will need to unlock again if you open it again now
<pitti> ogra: check it with mounting an internal disk
<Keybuk> if you do system -> admin -> authorizations -> manage system config -> Implicit Auth -> Edit -> Admin Auth (keep session)
<Keybuk> then you'll only be asked once
<ogra> i dont want to be asked once ... i want consitent behavior
<pitti> so that should indeed be fixed in g-s-t
<Keybuk> ogra: the bug here is that g-s-t doesn't use PK properly
<ogra> gksu times ut after ten mins
<ogra> pk will alllow it al the time or not
<pitti> g-s-t needs to split the privileges, and have more sensible defaults for how long ot keep them
<ogra> there is no timeout mechanism
<Keybuk> a timeout would not be hard or invalid to add
<ogra> right
<Keybuk> though gksu doesn't have a timeout ;)
<ogra> thats what i was after :)
<ogra> well, inherited from sudo
<Keybuk> (at least, I don't think it does -- I thought it was based on tty tickets :p)
<Keybuk> oh, no, sudo does have that 15 minute thing doesn't it
<ogra> yeah
<pitti> right
<Keybuk> pitti: do you see any reason why a (keep for 15 minutes) couldn't be added along with session and indefinitely ?
<pitti> Keybuk: no, for corner cases like g-s-t that should be fine; however, it should be per-privilege, not global
<Keybuk> pitti: agree
<james_w> Keybuk: davidz was against it
<Keybuk> james_w: any particular reason?
<james_w> though perhaps only globally
<Keybuk> it doesn't seem much different than "keep session"
<james_w> I didn't ask for more details as we were in the middle of a session
<ogra> Keybuk, he considered it a security issue, as i said above
<Keybuk> ogra: as I said, I think you explained what you wanted wrong
 * ogra dscussed it over a beer, no session involved ... but the outcome was the same
<Keybuk> if you talked about caching passwords, then I can definitely see why he thought that was a security issue
<Keybuk> the whole point of PK is that you _don't_ need a keyring for the passwords
<ogra> yeah, might be since i referred to gksu which likely behaves different in fedora :)
<Keybuk> what you actually wanted was for PK authorizations to timeout
<pitti> ogra: they don't have gksu
<pitti> or sudo
<ogra> they do, but dont use it :)
<pitti> F9 GUI is pure PK
<Keybuk> right now, a PK authorization can be one shot (do action, and forget authorization)
<pitti> well, not by default in the deskop, I mean
<ogra> Keybuk, very scary
<Keybuk> per-session (do action, and be able to repeat the action until you log out without being prompted)
<Keybuk> and indefinite (do action, and never be prompted again)
<ogra> right, like a graphical rootshell :)
<Keybuk> what you should have asked for was another state between one shot and per-session
<ogra> yeah, i see that now
<Keybuk> which is an authorization granted for a short amount of time, or the end of the session, whichever is sooner
<pitti> I think David didn't implement this so far because he thinks it's wrong design-wise
<pitti> (I had a quick talk about PK with him)
<ogra> that what he said as well
<ogra> *thats
<Keybuk> oh
<Keybuk> I could definitely see that David doesn't like timeout authorizations :p
<pitti> the idea of PK is that you auth for something once, and shoudlnt' be bothered about doing the same action henceforth
<pitti> instead of gksu, which will ask you over and over again
<pitti> since the fewer password request you get, the more attention you actually put to them
<pitti> s/put/pay/ (I think)
<Keybuk> we're almost out of time now :)
<Keybuk> any other any other any other business? :-)
<pitti> yeah, got sidetracked, sorry
<pitti> KitKit!
<ogra> pitti, well, its like the difference between su and sudo :)
<pitti> ogra: yeah, su is worse
<ogra> have a rootshell or use sudo
<Keybuk> ok, adjourned
<Keybuk> thanks everyone
<pitti> thanks all
<MacSlow> yipee.. food-time
 * mvo waves
<seb128> thanks
<Zic> @schedule Paris
<ubott2> Zic: Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 22:00: Security Team | 20 Jun 18:00: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 21:00: How to run a Bug Jam
<ubottu> Zic: Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 22:00: Security Team | 20 Jun 18:00: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 21:00: How to run a Bug Jam
<Zic> hu :]
<stgraber> @now
<ubottu> stgraber: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 19 2008, 14:20:03 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Security Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team
<kees> i'm late, apologies
<Casey_> Me too.
<kees> hiya Casey_
<kees> propagandist: around?
<propagandist> heyya
<jdstrand> hi!
<propagandist> kees: yup
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:12. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kees> [topic] CVE review
<MootBot> New Topic:  CVE review
<kees> just a quick overview on CVEs... anything anyone wants to bring up here?
<jdstrand> I don't have anything
<kees> [topic] SELinux update
<MootBot> New Topic:  SELinux update
<kees> propagandist: how're things in the Great Merge with Debian?  :)
<propagandist> kees: heh, i think that i've narrowed down the changes to just a few minor ones in the main packages
<propagandist> the one that needs to most changes will be refpolicy
<kees> propagandist: cool.  I assume it makes sense to have a fork of refpolicy due to the differences between the OSs
<propagandist> the last i talked with manoj though it sounded like we could get that squared away sooner or later
<kees> ah, okay
<kees> propagandist: anything you need from me or other ubuntu devs?
<propagandist> mm true, there will probably be some forking
<propagandist> kees: not at the moment, but i'll be sure to let you know if i do ;o]
<kees> propagandist: heh, okay.  the auto-import-from-debian ends on the 26th, so after that (and before feature freeze) we just need to make sync requests (no justifications needed)
<propagandist> ah, kk, i'll try to get as much done before that as i can
<kees> [topic] Smack
<MootBot> New Topic:  Smack
<kees> Casey_: I read through the whitepaper you sent -- sounds like services need to be patched to use smack?
<Casey_> Well ...
<Casey_> No.
<kees> heh, okay.
<Casey_> That is, they don;t all need to.
<Casey_> And it depends on the use you're putting them to.
<kees> sure, understandable.
<Casey_> The three uses (single, multiplexed, cognizant)
<kees> fundamentally, we want to isolate the cups daemon from anything it doesn't need access to
<propagandist> Is there any way to get the clients and an unmodified server running in different contexts without using the poly server?
<Casey_> If you run system processess at "_"
<Casey_> and users at "Blah"
<Casey_> You can set up CUPS as either single level Blah or "mastered" at floor
<kees> win 26
<Casey_> There are cases for each
<kees> eek
<jdstrand> Casey_: I read the paper and the LWN stuff, but I haven't seen what an example access rules would be that you would load into /smack/load (or wherever)
<jdstrand> Casey_: so I feel a bit of a disconnect
<propagandist> I'm thinking of the case where we want CUPS at one level 'cups_blah' and the clients at another 'cups_c'
<Casey_> Ok
<Casey_> Here goes ....
<Casey_> smackpolyport -c <wellknowncupsport> -m <port>:cups_blah ; cups --port <port> ,,,,
<Casey_> Everyone will be able to talk to CUPS even though it's running at cups_blah
<Casey_> smackpolyport does all the provileged stuff.
<jdstrand> (this is multiplexed)
<Casey_> Right. In particular, you're using a "safe" master for all client labels.
<jdstrand> Casey_: can you give an example rule that tells what the safe master can do?
<jdstrand> excuse me if my terminology is wrong
<propagandist> Casey_: ah, kk, so the only way to do that is through the polyport yes?
<Casey_> The cups process (not the cups program) is constrained to its label.
 * jdstrand nods
<Casey_> You could also do it using rules thus ....
<kees> so all the files that it can touch need to be labelled with "cups_blah" ?
<Casey_> Right
<jdstrand> ah
<jdstrand> lightbulb
<kees> yeah, that was the leap I hadn't made yet
<Casey_> cups_blah cups_c w
<jdstrand> Casey_: so then there is Netlabel for the networking parts? or is that something different
<Casey_> cups_c cups_blah w
<Casey_> Those two rules in /etc/smack/accesses (writen to /smack/load)
<Casey_> whould allow the processes to talk to each other
<Casey_> without using a multiplexer
<Casey_> Smack uses netlabel.
<kees> Casey_: what do you see as "next steps" for Smack in Ubuntu?  The 2.6.26 kernel is in intrepid now, so people could boot with smack enabled now.
<Casey_> With those two rules the processes can't access each others files, that needs read access.
<jdstrand> Casey_: so your smackpolyport command is really for connecting processes for communication. you'd still need to define all the labels for the diferent files touched-- correct?
<propagandist> Casey_: wouldn't that also allow the clients to write to the servers conf files?
<jdstrand> (and therefore smackpolyport is optional)
<Casey_> Write access to files requires read access as well
<propagandist> ah
<Casey_> This is a sneekly artifact that makes servers easier
<Casey_> because you don't need read access for packets
<kees> I'd still like to see a Wiki document (e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingSmack) that is similar to the docs for AppArmor: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor
<propagandist> interesting...
<jdstrand> re wiki> me too
<kees> especially for helping people enable it, tweak things in the right places, etc.
<kees> helping people with how to label files is, I think, the critical bit
<jdstrand> and for methods of contraining labels
<Casey_> If y'all are willing to host it, I'm happy to populate a wiki
<kees> AppArmor consolidates that into profiles, and SELinux (iiuc) has utilities to convert policies into labels
<Casey_> Right.
<Casey_> With Smack you don't define labels
<Casey_> You use them
<kees> Casey_: yeah, start at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingSmack and explain it like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor
<Casey_> Ok on the wiki then.
<kees> Casey_: without labels written to disk, processes aren't very useful, IIUC
<Casey_> attr -S -s SMACK64 -V 'MyDogHasNoNose' foo
<kees> propagandist: is that accurate, btw: "SELinux has utilities that convert a policy into on-disk labels"?
<kees> Casey_: while that might be second-nature to you, that's exactly the information I need.  :)
<kees> and where does the r/w access mark go?
<propagandist> kees: mostly ;o]
<Casey_> Smack does FS defaulting (usually to '_')
<Casey_> The r/w is in the rule.
<Casey_> The basic rule is that if labels don't match there's no access
<Casey_> an explicit rule (/etc/smack/accesses) "foo bar rw"
<Casey_> says any process at foo can read or write an object at bat
<Casey_> s/bat/bar/
<Casey_> There is no access spec attached to the file
<kees> Casey_: so I could organize labels like   cupsd_rw for all the files cups needs r/w access to
<jdstrand> Casey_: and all labels/constrainsts need to be written in one monolithic file, /etc/smack/accesses, or no?
<kees> and cupsd_r for files cups only needs to read.
<kees> and then   cups  cupsd_rw   rw                cups cupsd_r   r
<kees> in the accesses file?
<kees> and then label all the files with cupsd_rw and cupsd_r
<kees> (or have generalized labels like  nameservice_r and define   cups  nameserver_r r
<kees> ?
<jdstrand> kees: I think we'd need to do the later for quite a bit
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, all "abstractions".
<jdstrand> kees: so other processes could get at them
<kees> Casey_: it sounds like people (well, me) need a "recommended best practices" for how to go about choosing labels for on-disk files, and examples for shared files, etc
<Casey_> In general, you can run all your system services at '_' and that will protect them from users, who may run at 'User'
<Casey_> Yes,
<jdstrand> I was thinking about the interaction between cups and cups-pdf, and this 'abstraction' idea might be the way to do it
<kees> I want to protect my users from services.  ;)
<Casey_> Ah
<kees> but, yeah,
<kees> same all around.
<Casey_> Well, again, services at _ can't write users at User
<kees> okay, I feel like I have a better understanding here.
<jdstrand> well, I think protecting services is one thing, and users is another-- both are useful and desirable :)
<Casey_> There are folks who think each way
<Casey_> Both can be right
<Casey_> If you think "different implies no implicit access" you're good
<Casey_> Mostly
<kees> okay, so docs with examples and maybe a "best practices" for people to follow is "next steps", how does that sound?
<Casey_> No rest for the wicked.
<kees> [action] Casey_ to build up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingSmack into something resembling https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor, along with possible "best practices" and examples.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Casey_ to build up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingSmack into something resembling https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor, along with possible "best practices" and examples.
<kees> :)
<jdstrand> Casey_: is /etc/smack/accesses is single monolithic file, or can it be broken out into smaller bits?
<jdstrand> Casey_: this could be important for packaging
<Casey_> smackaccesses should remain small.
<Casey_> Do you really need to protect CUPS from SSH?
<kees> why wouldn't we?
<kees> or rather, in a perfect world, yeah.
<kees> they deal with different protocols, software, users
<jdstrand> maybe this is conceptually 'default deny' vs 'default allow'
<Casey_> Ah, why should you?
<Casey_> Really, what value do you obtain>
<kees> Casey_: paranoia?  :)
<kees> I've seen some admins really want very strict separations
<kees> but I understand that Smack is supposed to fill the middle ground
<Casey_> They have SELinux if they're Granularity Gremlins
<kees> hehe
<Casey_> 800,000 lines of policy
<Casey_> Does that make you feel secure?
<jdstrand> Casey_: is it safe to say that configuring cups for smack protects cups from others, rather than prtecting others from cups?
<Casey_> It works both ways.
<Casey_> DIfferent labels with controlled access between them (default == none)
<jdstrand> yes, it *can*, but it sounds like the general practice is the former. perhaps I am missing something
<Casey_> Well, services are an interesting problem ....
<jdstrand> perhaps I should wait and read your wiki, and things will be more clear
<Casey_> each seems to have it's own issues/
<jdstrand> I feel I have a better understanding as is, but the practical application/best practices are what I'd like to see
<Casey_> CUPS needs to to top&bottom labeling for LSPP
<Casey_> It will need to be cognizant, eventually.
<kees> sorry to possibly cut discussion short -- I've got to head off to other things.  Is meeting again in 2 weeks good?  that'd be the 3rd of July, same time.
<jdstrand> Casey_: speaking of that, is this something you hope to get upstream, and if so, how are upstreams reacting to smack?
<Casey_> Slowly. I have lots more work to do ....
<propagandist> kees: the 3rd is good
<Casey_> selling the value, they all would like to see a disto take the lead,
<Casey_> so they don;t end up with dead code in a year
<Casey_> The 3rd is ok by me, too.
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:54.
<kees> feel free to keep discussing -- I just have to split :)
<Casey_> Ok, thanks. Anyone what to hear more?
<propagandist> kees: good meeting, thanks kees
<jdstrand> thanks kees!
<propagandist> Casey_: ;o] of course
<kees> thanks everyone for coming.  :)
<Casey_> Thank you
<jdstrand> Casey_: I'm quite interested in smack, but would like to read your wiki. then I'm sure to have a bunch of questions :)
<Casey_> No doubt
<propagandist> Casey_: Will all services need be smack aware under LSPP?
<Casey_> Nope.
<Casey_> Many will
<Method> i think the correct question is "will smack ever be certifiable under LSPP"
<Casey_> Some are just uninteresting, serving up "public" information
<Casey_> Method: yes
<Method> wrong answer
<Method> :)
<Casey_> DO tell
<propagandist> Casey_: thanks, i'm looking forward to your wiki
<Method> you can't implement both a lattice and category sets at the same time
<Method> at least not easily
<Method> selinux wouldn't have needed explicit mls support if TE alone was sufficient
<Casey_> Method: I can describe how it's done, but it's more than one line.
<Method> i'm aware, we've had this converstation before :)
<Casey_> Well then.
<Casey_> The issue is a complete set of labels implied by the lattice, which is large, verses the actual used set, which in practice is small.
<Casey_> Real MLS installations use 3 site defined labels.
<Casey_> Either 3 levels or 3 categories
<Casey_> Since the late 1980's I have never sween them mixed.
<Method> well, i'm working with someone now that uses several levels and hundreds of categories
<Casey_> All at once?
<Method> yep, on tsol currently
<Casey_> Is anyone ever in more than one category at a time?
<Method> most users are in most categories
<Method> plus they are using some categories for releasibility
<Method> their label_encodings file is scary :\
<Casey_> I bet. In the end they just use the aliases I suspect
<Casey_> For the accesses they really want, I have a beer says the smack rules would be simpler
<Method> they use prefixes for releasibility
<Method> which may be true, but that doesn't mean anyone will consider that sufficient for lspp ;)
<Casey_> I've been through the LSPP (and B1) mill and had to do some serious education, and I think that this is simple enough to get the point through.
<Casey_> Maybe a tool to generate rules based on B&L, or to check that a rule set doesn't violate B&L
<Casey_> I've done sillier things
<Casey_> Looks as if the next meeting here is ramping up.
<Casey_> Thank you. Ta.
<kees> (feel free to move to #ubuntu-hardened)
<kees> oop
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-20
<ccm> dholbach: ping
<ccm> dholbach: there is a tiny problem with the announcement of the chat for today
<ccm> dholbach: while Jorge Castro writes in his blog that it's in #ubuntu-classroom, the official announcement states #ubuntu-meeting
<ccm> ah
<ccm> jcastro: ping
<dholbach> URGH
<dholbach> I'll tell him to change it and follow up on his blog post
<ccm> dholbach: fine
<dholbach> just in case, I'll be in #ubuntu-classroom too
<ccm> right
<ccm> me too
<dholbach> ccm: thanks for letting me know
<ccm> just selfish
<ccm> :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council
<riot_le> ccm: ping
<ccm> riot_le: yes
<riot_le> do you got my mail?
<riot_le> i didnt get a reply and dont know if our smtp working properly
<ccm> riot_le: uhm, can you give me the subject?
<riot_le> the Ubuntu-BBQ in Leipzig next Week
<dholbach> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> dholbach: Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 20 Jun 18:00: How to run a Bug Jam | 21 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 21:00: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 17:00:  Server Team | 24 Jun 20:00: LoCo Council
<xander21c> Hello
<pedro_> hey hey xander21c!
<xander21c> how you doing?
<pedro_> xander21c: I'm pretty good, thanks. How's everything going in Peru?
<xander21c> good, I'm currenly fighting with a printer
<pedro_> hehe good luck
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: How to run a Bug Jam | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council
<dholbach> hello everybody!
<dholbach> Who's here and wants to know more about Bug Jams?
 * jacob raises hand
<jacob> hallo
<ccm> a hello from me too
<pedro_> hi hi
<dholbach> hey jacob :)
<JonReagan> me me me!
<bernaz> hi
<ccm> that looks nice
<dholbach> let's do a quick round of introductions and see where we're all from :)
<dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, member of the Berlin, Germany team :)
<jacob> Jacob Peddicord of the Ohio USA team
<ccm> I am Caspar Clemens Mierau, also member of the Berlin, Germany and busy with organising community stuff directly here in Berlin
<JonReagan> I'm Jon Reagan from the Georgia LoCo Team (US)
<dholbach> looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam/ there should be some folks from Chile, Peru, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Chigao and Columbia who are already planning bug jams
<pedro_> hey I'm Pedro Villavicencio from Chile ;-)
<dholbach> but mayybe they're going to be at tomorrow's session
<dholbach> so are you all busy with planning already?
<ccm> are had even a first try?
<dholbach> I'd like to keep this as an open discussion so whenever you have clever ideas or questions, just speak up :)
<JonReagan> completely new to this... ;)
<jacob> right now we've only got out to spreading the word, nothing planned yet
<dholbach> jcastro's Loco had a Bug Jam already and ccm and I organised one in Berlin
<dholbach> jacob: great - how did you let people know about it?
<jacob> dholbach: team mailing list - though i'm not sure who all received it, LP doesn't show subscriber list
<dholbach> ah right
<jacob> but i've seen talk of it in our channel as well
<dholbach> I mailed the Berlin team for the Global Bug Jam too to get an idea what kind of packages people are interested in
<dholbach> excellent
<ccm> jacob: already found a place for it?
<jacob> ccm: nope
<techno_freak> dholbach, the Indian team is planning to have the bug jam mainly in its irc channel, while people from the same city might try to group together and work
<dholbach> techno_freak: great - do you have contacts in the various cities of India who you could poke?
<jacob> ccm: we're right at the beginning stages. we'll probably decide on a place in the coming weeks
<ccm> well, sitting together in real, if possible, has of course some nice advantages
<dholbach> ccm: absolutely
<dholbach> maybe ccm and I should talk a bit about what we did in Berlin in case people are interested?
<techno_freak> dholbach, yes, we have been getting some members to offer space, food and internet at main cities, hope more can chip in
<ccm> on the one hand you can show things, on the other hand, it is really fun, sitting together
<dholbach> techno_freak: that sounds awesome - try to get them to add the state of their planning on to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam - that way we could ping people and see how their planning is coming on?
<jacob> something i'd like to throw out there - it's difficult to get a bunch of Ohioans in one place, and while I'm sure we'll have a city-based jam, maybe ustream is an alternative option for those who can't make the location?
<dholbach> jacob: by upstream you mean "hanging out together on IRC"?
<techno_freak> dholbach, sure will add the Indian team there :) as of now am coordinating it for the team
<dholbach> techno_freak: thanks for that
<jacob> dholbach: no no, ustream.tv, a video streaming service :)
<techno_freak> dholbach, we also plan to have a few session before that so people have a clue what to do :)
<ccm> jacob: well video is neat replacement, of course (when its working :)
<dholbach> jacob: ahhh! how would that work? it sounds interesting
<dholbach> techno_freak: that's a topic we should definitely talk about while we're all here
<techno_freak> :)
<ccm> maybe we can talk about some experiences from our bug jam
<jacob> dholbach: since ustream allows you to mix feeds together into one stream, there could even be multiple people in one video. ustream also sets up a video chat via IRC that lets users communicate right on the video feed
<ccm> for the "advertisement": it's not easy motivating a lot of people for a bug jam, as it is "unsexy" at a first look, so you have to make it attractive to the bunch
<techno_freak> ccm, more importantly things to avoid/be careful/have-an-eye-on during bug jam will also help :)
<dholbach> jacob: that sounds awesome - we should add that information to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam
<ccm> that is: by the event itself (location) or by trying to tell people, that bug jamming can help themselves, too
<jacob> dholbach: cool - i'll add it on there afterwards
<ccm> so bug jamming a package you use often, for instance is just in your own interest
<ccm> people really understand this point
<dholbach> so what ccm and I did in Berlin was book a location that we had events in before - we were in a workshop room and had around 10-15 people showing up (Germany played soccer in the European championships that day :-))
<dholbach> I did a short "presentation" about general bug triage info first
<ccm> yes, it was close to a wonder, more than two people showed up
<ccm> :)
<dholbach> hehe
<dholbach> I think it took around one hour to talk about what the "bug lifecycle" is, how bugs can be forwarded upstream, what a subscriber is, what an assignee is, etc
<ccm> yeah, an important hour
<ccm> as people need to understand the launchpad and bug concept
<dholbach> until August we're going to fix up some of the documentation to make it even more obvious if people read the docs beforehand
<bdmurray> Does the whole life cycle need to be covered?
<dholbach> bdmurray: it was the "big picture" - what's needed to make a bug more useful, what information is needed etc
<ccm> bdmurray: well at least the life cycle for triaging from my point of view
<dholbach> just to get an understanding what it means if a bug goes from unconfirmed to confirmed, etc
 * ccm nods at dholbach 
<dholbach> also it'd be nice if we could get some folks to translate the docs (but that'll be a separate announcement)
<techno_freak> dholbach, do you have materials available to us, on the introduction talk?
<dholbach> maybe we could even have some presentation material
<bdmurray> Right, I was just thinking that not every single bug state needed to covered.
<ccm> bdmurray: yes, you are right with this
<dholbach> techno_freak: right now I'd advise people to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<techno_freak> ok
<ccm> techno_freak: well actually there is already a lot of great documentation on the official wiki
<dholbach> bdmurray: it'd be nice to have some kind of selection on what is essential
<ccm> I agree with dholbach, that translations are a big issue
<dholbach> ccm: I guess it just needs to be a bit condensed for a "at one glance" overview
<dholbach> *nod*
<bdmurray> dholbach: like an outline of topics for a into to triage class?
<ccm> of course working on bugs has to be done in English at some point, but the introductions in "native" languages would be great
<dholbach> bdmurray: exactly, maybe a fancy diagram or two to go with it :)
<ccm> yes, images :)
<bdmurray> dholbach: right :)
<dholbach> of course that triggered a bunch of questions like "if you look at bugs <n+1>, what am I supposed to do with it?"
<dholbach> if people are at the stage of looking at bugs themselves and thinking about how to solve them, the bug jam already was a success :)
<dholbach> I'm sure that bdmurray and his #ubuntu-bugs cronies will cook up some list of easy targets (like 'new' bugs that need confirmation, etc.)
<dholbach> jacob, techno_freak, JonReagan, bernaz: have you been involved in bug triage already?
<dholbach> (and everybody else who's lurking in here and interested in getting a bug jam started)
<jacob> i have, though not as actively as I have been
<techno_freak> dholbach, i have been, whenever i found free time
<dholbach> techno_freak, jacob: if you have people on your team who have been dealing with bugs already, that's a great start - it's good to have somebody around locally who can answer questions
<dholbach> I hope I didn't scare bernaz away
<ccm> i noticed that one should even be prepared for questions like "why is it called 'bug triage'?"
<ccm> :)
<techno_freak> dholbach, we are trying to have one such resource in each place, at least as much as we can :)
<dholbach> right... we got that one too
<dholbach> it's going to ROCK, I just know it
<dholbach> and it'd be awesome to get as many awesome stories, pictures, videos, ... as possible on to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam/Stories
<ccm> a nice warm up, is showing live bug examples and easy things like finding duplicates
<ccm> and launchpad is full of duplicates
<dholbach> do you guys have any questions or things we should probably bear in mind?
<ccm> dholbach: you wrote down some things to remember for the next bug jam
<ccm> dholbach: do you remember them right now?
<dholbach> a lot of the points were about fixing our docs, also about 5-a-day fixes
<dholbach> one thing we could try is something like:
<dholbach> group people locally in groups of four (or some other number) who work on the same bug list
<ccm> yes, actually groups are quite powerful
<ccm> as the people can chat about decisions they make
<dholbach> I just imagine it would be much more fun if you get something like "oh yeah, I looked at that bug before and I saw a similar bug upstream, let me give you the link"
<dholbach> exactly
<ccm> dholbach: did you already spread the word about gobby?
<dholbach> one "problem" we had in Berlin was that whenever somebody asked a question, everybody looked at me and stopped what they were doing and expected some kind of lecture
<ccm> i don't know if everybody knows it
<dholbach> it wasn't a big problem, just a bit disruptive to what the people were doing themselves
<dholbach> jacob, techno_freak, JonReagan: do you know about gobby?
 * jacob loves gobby
<ccm> yeah, that's why its good to start with an introduction, but just to start with it and then to split into groups
<techno_freak> dholbach, yes, we use to work on our loco team wiki collaboratively :)
<ccm> jacob: and gobby loves you, hehe
<dholbach> great
<jacob> :d
<dholbach> we used it to share links in the team and take notes
<jacob> :D*
<dholbach> that worked out really well
<jacob> it's a great editor once it is setup - the setup is the only strange part
<ccm> yes, the room is till available
<ccm> :)
<ccm> eh still
<dholbach> jacob: if you use gobby.ubuntu.com as a server it's pretty straightforward
<jacob> dholbach: ooh, haven't tried that
<dholbach> :)
<ccm> dholbach: we should write that down, somewhere
 * dholbach took a note
<ccm> :)
<ccm> scrollkeeper dholbach
<dholbach> what I'm interested in is: how do we get the word out to the city teams?
<tnseditor> hi everyone
<dholbach> I'm sure there are a lot of people on the xyz ubuntu forum who didn't hear about the Global Bug Jam yet who might be interested in running this in their city
<dholbach> hi tnseditor
<dholbach> tnseditor: insterested in running a Bug Jam?
<jacob> hey tnseditor (i dragged him in here :P)
<tnseditor> :-p
<dholbach> ROCK :)
<tnseditor> jacob: next time you don't have to drag me, just give me a map.... dragging is too painful
<tnseditor> :-p
<jacob> heh
<dholbach> so do you have any ideas how we could do that? we covered it on the fridge on planet and I think on some forums already
<tnseditor> hi ropetin
<dholbach> (also loco-contacts@lists.u.c and ubuntu-event-planners@lists.u.c)
<ropetin> Hullo
<dholbach> hi ropetin: also interested in running a bug jam?
<jacob> i'm sure we could get something stuck on the main forums (probably cafe) about it
<ccm> dholbach: are we actually going for the guiness book this august? :)
<dholbach> ccm: we should definitely aim for it!
<ccm> right
<ccm> here we go
<dholbach> jacob: good idea
<dholbach> how busy are the ubuntu-<country code> mailing lists?
<techno_freak> some creative soul could create some banner and countdown for the global bug jam that we can add to our blogs ;)
<ccm> dholbach: maybe we should create something like a blog footer with a counter and a "join" link
<dholbach> would it make sense to give people a heads-up there?
<dholbach> techno_freak: great one!
<jacob> techno_freak: is that a challenge? :o
<pedro_> techno_freak: that would be awesome
<dholbach> that would totally rock
<dholbach> ccm: is there a lot of traffic on the ubuntu-de list? would it make sense to mail the list?
<ccm> dholbach: let me check this
<ccm> dholbach: 557 messages in may
<dholbach> woohoo
<ccm> dholbach: so it's not a dessert
<ccm> aeh
<ccm> desert?
<ccm> never mind
<ccm> :)
<dholbach> no, not really :)
<dholbach> great
<tnseditor> I need dessert :-p
<dholbach> I'll send a mail to them out soon
<dholbach> hehe
<ccm> tnseditor: :)
 * ccm blushes
<dholbach> techno_freak: thanks for adding IndianTeam! :)
<ropetin> dholbach, I'm really interested in learning how I can help Ubuntu, and bug related stuff seems most likely for me
<dholbach> techno_freak added City "Any" :-)
<dholbach> ropetin: we were discussing it earlier and came to the conclusion that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs is the best bet right now
<dholbach> ... for people who wanted to get started with bug triage
<techno_freak> dholbach, :) we would love to join in
<dholbach> ropetin: are you also interested in organising an event where people meet up locally and do bug triage together?
<ropetin> dholbach, yes, we in the Florida LoCo are kinda scattered, but we could get together for something worthwhile
<dholbach> ropetin: do you have contacts in the bigger cities that would be interested in hosting/organising something like this?
<ropetin> One question on triaging though, I've done a couple, but I'm worried I'll end up troubleshooting the problem
<dholbach> if it's just not feasible at all, there's always IRC and #ubuntu-bugs
<ropetin> dholbach, Yes, we have people in Ft Lauderdale, Miami, Orlando and Jacksonville
<dholbach> we plan to have a huge presence there and especially try to tie in Upstream developers who can help with questions about specific packages
<dholbach> ropetin: that sounds awesome
<dholbach> ropetin: anything you (and your friends) can do to make a bug report more meaningful and better in any way is highly appreciated
<dholbach> having fun together, making Ubuntu better and having a few beer/<orwhateverelse> afterwards is what it's all about :)
<ropetin> dholbach, so the question I have is should I add to the bug with 'trouble shooting' questions, or contact the submitter directly?
<ropetin> And then only put bug related stuff in the bug?
<dholbach> ropetin: best to add it all to the bug report itself
<ropetin> Cool, ok, thanks, as long as people don't get mad at me for it :)
<dholbach> that way it's visible to everybody else who takes a look at the bug
<dholbach> not at all
<ccm> dholbach: maybe you tell some things about integrating  5-a-day in a bug jam
<dholbach> if you're uncertain we have our QA experts in #ubuntu-bugs who are happy to help out :)
<dholbach> ccm: very good point
<ropetin> Excellent, I'll try my hand at triaging again then
<dholbach> who in her doesn't know about 5-a-day yet? :)
<ccm> (try to beat the Berlin team, haha)
<dholbach> so 5-a-day was the initiative to try to get as many people as possible to do at least 5 bugs a day
<dholbach> and by doing we didn't necessarily mean "fix these bugs"
<dholbach> but work on them, try to improve them, confirm them, etc
<dholbach> Then we have this little tool you can use to submit the bugs you worked on and they'll turn up at http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/
<dholbach> who of you is a 5-a-day'er already?
<jacob> i was on 5-a-day for a bit, but then left because of lack of available time. this summer I should have plenty of it though :D
<dholbach> I know that ccm, pedro_ and bdmurray are :)
 * techno_freak rises his hand
 * dholbach hugs jacob
<dholbach> good work
 * dholbach hugs techno_freak too :)
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day#Log has more info about how get the tool set up (and how to make it recognise what team you're in)
<dholbach> also we decided to use tags for the individual teams for the global bug jam
<snap-l> I'm on 5 a day as well. (Craig from the Michigan Loco Team)
 * techno_freak is surprised to find him still at #33 in the stats :P
<ccm> one should add, that dholbach himself wrote the 5-a-day script :)
<snap-l> Would it be out of line to ask for a feature request for the 5-a-day applet? :)
<dholbach> snap-l: ROCK! :)
<dholbach> Michigan is pretty active :)
<ccm> snap-l: i guess, dholbach likes to hear about it
<dholbach> snap-l: not at all
<jacob> (wasn't there a 5-a-day plugin for gnome-do at some point?)
<dholbach> jacob: REALLY? I didn't know
<snap-l> Specifically a larger icon that doesn't require using "The Force" to drag-and-drop over?
<dholbach> snap-l: good idea
<dholbach> snap-l: would you mind adding it to https://bugs.launchpad.net/five-a-day/+filebug so I don't forget?
<jacob> dholbach: i vaguely remember something like it
<snap-l> Sure thing
<dholbach> snap-l: cheers
<ccm> my greatest experience from the last bug jam was, that i wrote my first patch in c for pidgin/otr and it even got accepted on the project upstream
 * dholbach hugs ccm
<ccm> that really makes yearning for more bugs bugs bugs
<dholbach> of course the Bug Jam will be a lot about hugging too :)
<dholbach> I'm really excited about lots and lots and lots of Bug Jams all around the world
<snap-l> dholbach: Other than that little complaint, I love the 5-a-day script / applet
 * james_w hugs dholbach 
 * dholbach hugs james_w back
<ccm> flashhug :)
<dholbach> james_w: are we going to have UK participateion in the Global Bug Jam?
<dholbach> :)
<james_w> dholbach: I hope so, but I'm still having trouble dreaming up a suitable venue.
<dholbach> snap-l: I'm glad you say that :)
<dholbach> james_w: Millbank Tower! :)
<james_w> dholbach: I don't want to face the arctic conditions.
<dholbach> I'm sure that popey will know a place :)
<popey> hmm?
<dholbach> popey: UK participation in the Global Bug Jam!
<popey> would millbank be available?
<dholbach> popey: no idea
<popey> or do you not have much space there?
<popey> would clan be the best person to ask?
<dholbach> everybody: do you or your loco have a list of venues you've had events at before?
<dholbach> popey: I guess so
<popey> will ask her
<james_w> popey: when I inquired I was told that weekends weren't great as they turn the heating off in the building, and so everyone would have to wear plenty of layers.
<dholbach> popey: ROCK :)
<james_w> inquired? enquired?
<tnseditor> time for lunch... be back eventually
<dholbach> tnseditor: enjoy it
<popey> dholbach: will ask on the mailing list for venue suggestions
<techno_freak> dholbach, we hope to find some universities, which supports local LUGs, to help :)
<dholbach> excellent!
<dholbach> it seems like the venue question seems to be the most pressing one in terms of organisation
<jacob> all of our events have traditionally been at Panera Bread locations, but I know someone available to get space at OSU, a columbus college
<ccm> techno_freak: yes, universities are quite open minded towards this and have the right equipment
<dholbach> techno_freak: that's a great idea and it'd be nice to keep a list of venues you've been to before and that worked out well - like on a wiki page just for future events
<techno_freak> dholbach, ya we will, once we are sure of venues :)
<snap-l> We held our last one at a local library that offered space for free if you have a member with a membership
<snap-l> The only drawback was wifi access was restricted to get outside the library.
<dholbach> snap-l: did they have an old librarian who told you to be quiet all the time? :-)
<popey> dholbach: remind me what date the jam is?
<snap-l> Nah, it was a conference room
<dholbach> snap-l: ah great
<popey> 8-10/aug?
<dholbach> popey: August 8-10
<dholbach> yep
<dholbach> that sounds pretty awesome
<dholbach> do you have any questions or anything you're unsure about in terms of organisation and getting the word out?
<dholbach> or anything else related to the "running the bug jam"?
<ccm> guys: please take pictures of your sessions and blog them
<ccm> :)
<dholbach> yeah, definitely :)
<ccm> that reminds me of sending my pictures to dholbach
<dholbach> ccm: do it! :)
<dholbach> OK... if that's everything, thanks everybody for being here and thanks for doing the GREAT work that you do
 * popey hugs dholbach 
<dholbach> There's going to be another session tomorrow at Saturday, June 21st 19:00 UTC with the dynamic duo of Greg Grossmeier and Jorge Castro
 * jacob applauds
 * dholbach hugs popey back
 * dholbach hugs y'all
<dholbach> thanks ccm for taking the time :)
<dholbach> and please let me know if you run into trouble or have further questions
<dholbach> please mail me
<ccm> hugs from me, too
 * techno_freak hugs dholbach ccm bdmurray popey jacob snap-l james_w 
<dholbach> yoohoo! :)
 * jacob hugs all back
<snap-l> Bug hug!
<afflux> gah. /me is always late for meetings. :(
<tnseditor> back
 * james_w buys afflux a watch
<popey> dholbach: clan & ubuntu-uk mailed
<dholbach> popey: cheers
<dholbach> this is going to be GREAT
<dholbach> jacob: thanks a lot for adding info about upstream.tv to the wiki
<jacob> no prob dholbach
<james_w> popey: thanks
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-21
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Xubuntu Community | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Jun 19:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> I gotta run. j1mc is going to host the meeting for me :)
<cody-somerville> Have fun fellows
<j1mc> hi all - who all is here?
<TheSheep> cody-somerville: so I guess the meeting is cancelled?
<techno_freak> oh?
<jcastro> 10 minutes until "How to Run a Bug Jam"!
<ccm> good luck with it, jcastro :)
<greg-g> no luck needed ;)
<ccm> right. just kind of an idiom :)
<jcastro> heh
<jcastro> greg-g: do you know how to control the bot?
<greg-g> no clue
<jcastro> heh, no worries
<jcastro> ok, I guess we should start with introductions
<jcastro> I'm jorge castro, I'm on the ubuntu community team.
<greg-g> Hello everyone!  Welcome to the second session of "How to Run a Bug Jam"
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: How to run a Bug Jam | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 25 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team
<greg-g> my name is Greg Grossmeier and the leader of the Michigan (US) LoCo Team
<jcastro> so if you're here from the meeting please say hello!
<jcastro> and what team you're representing. (or if you're just hanging out)
<jacob> i might be ducking in and out (was in here yesterday) but I suppose i'm here. Hello from Ohio!
<greg-g> Hello jacob
 * chuckf representing MarylandTeam
<greg-g> welcome
<jcastro> I see Maryland already has all their stuff filed out on the wiki
<nxvl> jcastro: #startmeeting
<jcastro> nxvl: ah
<chuckf> largly, yeah
<jcastro> #startmeeting
<jcastro> like that?
<jcastro> ok whatever, let's get started!
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam
<nxvl> yes, mathiaz always use something like that
<jcastro> this is the main page we're going to use for coordinating the jam
<greg-g> and tips for how to run it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam/Prep
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam/Prep
<jcastro> and this page is what we're going to discuss today
 * nxvl represents Peru
<jcastro> so if you remember one thing, it's that last URL. :)
<jcastro> Ok, before we get into the nitty gritty
<jcastro> the first thing that is most important for the Jam
<jcastro> is that everyone has a good time.
 * greg-g nods
<jcastro> If 300 people show up
<jcastro> and you only triage 1 bug, then that's totally fine
<jcastro> the idea is to get Local teams together and having a good time
<jcastro> so down the road when you want to do a social event, you'll know how to do a jam and can do one whenever you want
<jcastro> we would like to see LoCos just running jams on their own and doing what their members want to do
<jcastro> so hopefully we can make these fun so people want to do them
<jcastro> so for example
<jcastro> we just had a jam in michigan
<jcastro> and due to weather only 3 people showed up
<jcastro> but we still had a great time
 * greg-g and me being in California
<jcastro> so you should measure success by how good a time people had, and how you take notes to make things better next time, etc.
<jcastro> don't use raw numbers or bug counts as your measurement of success
<jcastro> those are just great side effects. :)
<jcastro> Any questions so far?
<chuckf> nope
<jcastro> greg-g: want to go into venues?
<jcastro> we can alternate on topics
<greg-g> sure
<siretart> FYI, we are having a BugJam right now in nueremberg, with 15 attendees (including myself) :)
<greg-g> siretart: nice!
<jcastro> siretart: oh well, that's awesome!
<nxvl> jcastro: i have a doubt
<greg-g> ?
<nxvl> jcastro: the idea of the GBJ is to fix bugs or just to triage them, or both of them?
<jcastro> nxvl: fix would be nice, but shoot for triage
 * greg-g nods
<jcastro> nxvl: people should know how to triage
<nxvl> jcastro: so the goal is triaging, but if you fix them it's even nicer?
<jcastro> and as your bug jams progress your team can go as advanced as they want
<jcastro> yep, of course. :D
<greg-g> So, Venues...
<greg-g> You need some place that has power, internet, and places to sit for everyone that is going to show up (obviously)
<greg-g> but, it also needs to be conducive to listening to one person talking for a little bit and asking questions
<greg-g> some good places are offices of Open Source Friendly businesses or even Library conference rooms (where Michigan had ours)
<greg-g> where is your bug jam going on siretart ?
<jcastro> I bet in a pub. :)
<greg-g> (feel free to answer later siretart ) another place we have done things for our team is at a person's house
<greg-g> There we had the essentials plus nice seating and food and drinks
<greg-g> so really, anywhere that is comfortable and conducive to group work.
<greg-g> and, cheap :)
<greg-g> any questions on venues? or other suggestions before we move on?
<chuckf> colleges
<jcastro> Colleges are always good
<greg-g> good one
<chuckf> the cis groups tend to have presentation/work rooms available on weekends
<nxvl> we are thinking on running ours on a starbucks
<jcastro> because you can link up with like a computer club or ACM or something and get more participation
<greg-g> just make sure you have a way for everyone to get internet access where ever you are
<chuckf> also check with local lugs see if they have inet friendly places
<greg-g> yep.  and in general, communicating with the LUGs is a good idea
<jcastro> It also doesn't hurt to ensure that there's enough power plugs for everyone, if not, just ask people to bring along power strips or whatever
<chuckf> and a wireless ap for the group to work off of depending on the venue
<greg-g> yep
<greg-g> if there aren't any more venue questions, lets move on to Promotion
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so the biggest thing to help with promotion is to ensure that your loco is on the wiki page
<jcastro> since we'll be blogging/twittering, and generally pointing people to that page
<jcastro> also, your local team mailing list
<jcastro> and your local lug mailing list is another place where you might want to send a mail
<jcastro> lots of LoCo people are also local LUG people so with that overlap it's easy to get the word out
<jcastro> other places to get the word out include local computer stores and shows
<nxvl> i'm running some packagin jams here for the university lugs and telling them about the GBJ
<jcastro> like, before they went out of business, our local CompUSA had a bulletin board where people could post stuff
<greg-g> nxvl: good deal
<jcastro> and in general, blogging about it on planet ubuntu, your blog, twitter, etc. etc. is a good way to promote it
<nxvl> so i prepare people to fix bugs and know how to do them and also i invite them to stay tunned for it
<jcastro> and if you've noticed we've put the word out on podcasts as well
<jcastro> any other ideas for promotion?
<jcastro> oh, your local area in the ubuntu forums if you have one
<greg-g> along with the LUGs, be sure to contact the local ACM chapter at the university (if there is one)
<jcastro> pointing people to the wiki page so they can get the date/time information, etc.
<nxvl> jcastro: another way to promote event is to exchange publicity for content
<nxvl> on the local magazines
<jcastro> local university clubs are great, I used to ask CS professors to announce LoCo stuff
<nxvl> or newspapers
<jcastro> nxvl: ah, right, local media.
<nxvl> you give them some content for them to make articles
<nxvl> and ask them to mention the event
<jcastro> It would be cool if you could get like a local newspaper, magazine, or radio/tv news or something to cover your event
<jcastro> in return for highly technical articles. :D
<greg-g> thats a great idea
<jcastro> greg-g: we need to do that!
<greg-g> noted
<jcastro> anything else for Promotion before we get to the "Pre-Bug Jam Checklist of Awesome"?
<nxvl> we have used it in some other events and it works fine
<nxvl> :D
<greg-g> Checklist of Awesome:
<greg-g> First thing that is critical on the Checklist of Awesome is: ensuring everyone has a Launchpad Account
<greg-g> without that, the participants can't make any bugs better themselves
<greg-g> Checklist of Awesome number 2: 5-a-day preparedness
<greg-g> does everyone know what 5-a-day is?
 * chuckf does
<nxvl> 5-a-day rocks!
<greg-g> well, quickly, 5-a-day is a way to have the amount of work you are doing on bugs to be recorded.  but not only for you, but your loco team as well
<greg-g> there are instructions at wiki.u.c/5-a-day
<greg-g> Checklist of Awesome number 3: what package(s) does your group love?
<chuckf> and there's not a problem of just cutting people loose to decide what they want to handle themselves right?
<greg-g> to make things like this matter to the participants you don't want to triage bugs for a package no one uses.  Find popular packages that need some love, and get a list out for that package.  At the end of the day people will feel like they really helped
<greg-g> oh right, you can break up into groups and have people interested in similar things work together
<greg-g> 4 or so people per group is probably a good number, depending on how many people come
<jcastro> chuckf: yeah, the idea is if people want to work on a specific project, then let them break out into groups or whatever
<greg-g> Checklist of Awesome 4: irc channel for pasting links
<jcastro> chuckf: some locos might want to target one thing for their entire group, or a specific upstream. Whatever works for you.
<greg-g> make sure everyone knows where the loco's irc channel is and how to get on
<chuckf> k
<greg-g> Checklist of Awesome 5: have fun!
<chuckf> and there will, i assume, be a gbj room set up on the weekend
<greg-g> well, #ubuntu-bugs will have a bunch of experienced bug triagers
<jcastro> it'll be in ubuntu-bugs
<jcastro> so I think the best thing to do
<greg-g> and then your loco team can be in your channel for more direct communication
<jcastro> is have people idle in there that want to, but use your local channel for noisier conversation
<greg-g> (or use gobby)
<jcastro> but there should be at least one person in #ubuntu-bugs from your group to coordinate with everyone
<greg-g> right
<jcastro> in case you're loco is working on say a certain list of bugs
<jcastro> we don't want another loco to come along and start working on the same list
<jcastro> so we'll use #ubuntu-bugs for your loco to say "we're working on foo!" or whatever
<greg-g> and, that Checklist of Awesome can be found on the GlobalBugJam/Prep wiki page (I'll add some more to it later).  So, go over that and send out instructions for the simple things before the day of the event
<nxvl> greg-g: don't forget about gpg keys
<jcastro> please note the tags for the 5-a-day application!
<greg-g> like "No Launchpage account? No worries!" kinda thins
<greg-g> nxvl: key signing?
<nxvl> greg-g: not, just for people to have gpg keys
<chuckf> they are not needed for bug triaging
<chuckf> I thought
<jcastro> yeah
<greg-g> right
<jcastro> they're not
<nxvl> yes, but most of them will want to fix some bugs
<greg-g> not needed, but if people ask about them you can do a 1 on 1 with them to set it up
<chuckf> though our team is having a tutorial/signing over the next month
<nxvl> since there are some really bitsize ones
<nxvl> and it will be great for people to fix them
<nxvl> :D
<jcastro> yeah that's fine
<jcastro> just don't start off a jam with "and now we're going to do a massive keysigning"
<greg-g> nxvl: if you have some experienced packagers on hand to help out with that, yeah
<greg-g> right, takes a lot of time
<jcastro> don't want to scare people off too early!
<nxvl> greg-g: i am :D
<greg-g> nxvl: good deal
<chuckf> our keysigning will be the prior week so it'll be out of the way:)
<jcastro> good idea
<chuckf> we should be done by the start of this
<chuckf> :)
<jcastro> heh
<greg-g> chuckf: that is a good way to do it.  at some other event like a basic get-together
<chuckf> ours is going to be a the nsa crypto museum
<chuckf> :)
<greg-g> nice
<greg-g> here is the rundown:
<greg-g> Checklist of Awesome: 1) Launchpad 2) 5-a-day 3) Popular Packages 4) IRC channel information  5) FUN!
<greg-g> next item on the agenda?
<nxvl> 6) Friends!
<jcastro> Running it!
<jcastro> OK, so something we've had success with
<jcastro> was a presenter go over a few examples
<jcastro> so new people get an idea of what to do
<nxvl> greg-g: don't forget about the most important part of a community!
<jcastro> if you have experienced triagers already there, you can break them off into groups with other peopole
<greg-g> nxvl: beer?
<nxvl> greg-g: no, friends!
<jcastro> so new people have an experienced person in their group to help them
<jcastro> or you can have one smart person up front answering questions
 * greg-g smiles at nxvl 
<jcastro> what we did is started working on our own list of bugs
<jcastro> and if someone had a question they would yell out the number, and then the person connected to the projector would load it up
<jcastro> and we would look through it, and decide what to do
<chuckf> are there any 'demo' bugs in the system that we can use?
<jcastro> if not, then one person would ask in #ubuntu-bugs
<jcastro> chuckf: there will be a premade list of bugs, but I should ask about some demo bugs
<jcastro> that's a good idea
<greg-g> noted
<jcastro> the lists of bugs will be made available before the jam
<jcastro> so basically your loco picks one of the parts of the list
<jcastro> and starts working on it
<chuckf> maybe have a 'gbj-marylandteam' bug
<nxvl> jcastro: also if there are no experienced triagers or packagers, it's cool to have meetings with tome people on the community and start working with them and teaching
<jcastro> chuckf: wolfger runs our jams, and he's experienced, so usually he just finds a bug in real time and triages it on the spot
<nxvl> s/no/just one/g
<jcastro> nxvl: yep, if everyone is brand new I expect most of the time you will just be teaching
<jcastro> which is why we don't put an emphasis on the amount of bugs you triage
 * greg-g nods
<chuckf> and it's difficult to quota volunteers:)
<jcastro> at the very minimum, if you get lost, frustrated, or it's turning into a disaster, you can always concentrate on just teaching people little things.
<jcastro> yeah
<jcastro> I suspect we'll get a few reports that start off with "We started triaging and then decided to go to the pub instead."
<jcastro> So whatever works for you. :D
<greg-g> :)
<greg-g> So, what to do after the GBJ is over?  Good question
<nxvl> jcastro: heh
<nxvl> greg-g: key signing and beers
<nxvl> :D
<greg-g> 1) Put our pictures online (flickr or something) with tags that will help people find them (global-bug-jam-2008 or similar)
<chuckf> take the spouses/friends out to dinner for abandoning them all day:)
<greg-g> both good suggestions :)
<greg-g> 2) beer
<greg-g> 3) spouse/friend dinner
<greg-g> 4) get feedback from the participants
<greg-g> like how it went, what to do differently next time, etc
<greg-g> not formal questionaire or anything, just take notes
<greg-g> 5) plan some future bug jams!
<greg-g> 6) Blog it, blog it, blog it
<jcastro> yeah, do like a quick feedback thing at the end, where people can say what sucked, what rocked, etc.
<jcastro> and then put those notes on your loco wiki
<greg-g> yeah, just generally take some notes on how well it was executed
<greg-g> right
<jcastro> so you can say "don't go to this place again!" or "this place was real friendly!"
<jcastro> things like that
<greg-g> including information on the venue you used (good/bad/ugly)
<jcastro> also, if you could put the feedback in your loco monthly report, that would be great. Also your local list.
<jcastro> we'd like to get as much feedback as to how the event went across the world
<jcastro> even if it's bad!
<greg-g> yeah, if it didn't work, it is good to know why
<greg-g> are there any other questions at this time?
<xander21c> The idea is to make it fun instead to be too academic type
<greg-g> correct!
<jcastro> cool cool!
<jcastro> this is going to rock.
<greg-g> heck yeah, I'm excited for August 8-10th
<jcastro> any other questions?
<xander21c> nxvl and I are looking for a fun place with wifi :) in Lima
<nxvl> yes
<jcastro> if you think of some later, track me down on irc or you can mail me at jorge at ubuntu.com
<nxvl> xander21c: i find a nice Starbuck that we can use
<chuckf> what time zone are we starting from:)
<xander21c> nxvl: nice :)
<greg-g> chuckf: whenever it is August 8th for you
<nxvl> chuckf: just any, that's why it's so many days
<nxvl> xander21c: just use 9th and you will hace no change to fail
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> s/ xander21c / chuckf /g
<xander21c> also can make and advocacy showing Ubuntu + compiz
 * chuckf was making a joke after the FF release day compaints
<chuckf> complaints
<greg-g> chuckf: :)
<jcastro> chuckf: we're kind of flexible on start/end times
<jcastro> whatever works for you
<jcastro> greg-g: will you be back for ours?
<greg-g> :( no
<jcastro> dang
<greg-g> I'll be online though as much as I can
<snap-l> greg-g: bummer
 * nxvl too
<nxvl> let's make GBJ as cool as we can!
<greg-g> any other questions/ideas from anyone?
<nxvl> it need to rock!
<greg-g> it WILL rock! ;)
<jcastro> with people like you nxvl how can we fail!
 * nxvl HUGS jcastro and greg-g 
 * greg-g hugs nxvl back
<greg-g> and with that: thanks everyone for coming and go have great Bug Jams!
<chuckf> thanks for the chat!@
<greg-g> thank you
<greg-g> ... for running a bug jam :)
<chuckf> krispy kreme for breakfast and pizza for lunch, what more incentive do I need???
<jcastro> have a good one guys!
 * jcastro hugs everyone
<chuckf> oh, helping make the software I use better is just a side benefit:)
<greg-g> my best to everyone!
<nxvl> jcastro: be carefull of everyone huging you!
<nxvl> jcastro: as in the flash hug
<nxvl> :P
<jcastro> heh
<juliux> ,v _stink_
 * xander21c see u later guys
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 25 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 26 Jun 10:00 UTC: MOTU School Session - Apport retraces
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-22
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 23 Jun 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 25 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Jun 18:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | 23 Jun 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 24 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mozilla Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jun 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 24 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<asac> hi! ^^^
<JenFraggle> hi
<Jazzva> hey hey
<shirish> hi all
<asac> hmm ... gnomefreak not here yet :/
<Nafallo> hi
<asac> rzr: RainCT: ping :)
<Volans> hi all
<fta> hi
<fta> hm, it's crowded in here.
<asac> yeah :) ... arena
<Jazzva> I thought only few of them will be here. heh
<asac> ok .... maybe lets get started.
<asac> gnomefreak is not here, so lets push his topics back in case he appears late
<fta> where is the agenda ?
<Jazzva> Does that mean I go first? Ok...
<Jazzva> fta: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<asac> agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<Tallken> the meeting is open right? I'm here just for the curiosity
<Jazzva> Tallken: Sure...
<asac> thanks to Jazzva and gnomefreak that actually made this meeting become true ;)
<Tallken> :)
<asac> s/that/who/
<asac> its been quite some time since the last meeting so ... here we go :)
<Jazzva> soren, first item is membership policy for the new team, mozilla-extensions-dev
<asac> Tallken: feel free to listen, contribute, cheer, whatever :)
<Tallken> ok :)
<Jazzva> Um... that's supposed to be "so", not "soren". autocomplete...
<asac> Jazzva: ok go ahead. maybe outline the options we have
<Jazzva> I have few suggestions. First is to auto-accept new team members with some sort of trial period (1, 3 months, ...), during which they need to prove their skills with some sort of development for the team (packaging extensions, fixing current bugs in mozilla extensions, ...)
<Jazzva> The second would be to ask new members to show some skills before being accepted in the team.
<asac> personally, i prefer the first (open) option but would like to hear what others think?
<Jazzva> Personally, I am more for the second option, since we probably will use mozilla-extensions-dev branches in development, according to extensions' LargeScaleDevelopment (am I right?).
<fta> i prefer 2nd but it's less critical than for m-t
<JenFraggle> i think the first option sounds best
<asac> especially the current extension-dev members ;)
 * RainCT is here
<asac> yes ... LargeScaleDevelopment is later on the agenda, but since it somehow interferes with this agenda point, let me explain what we plan to do
<Volans> in the first option after the trial period is needed a meeting for confirmation of the members
<Volans> ?
<Nafallo> second option is lots easier to manage, I'd say. people can always branch and ask for merges.
<asac> to better scale the extension package maintenance and help extension packagers we want to provide a few "automated" services
<asac> for instance: we will provide automatically tracked upstream branches
<asac> and try to automagically upgrade the .ubuntu branches
<asac> the result of that auto upgrade will end up in a .staging branch which is supposed to reside in the ~mozilla-extension-dev team
<asac> so the only thing that extension contacts need to do is reviewing those .staging branches and resolving any eventual conflicts
<asac> so basically the only harm someone can do is breaking the .staging branches before they get released to the archive
<asac> for me that means that its an acceptable risk if it helps us to get more contributors by removing a barrier (e.g. entering the team)
<asac> anyway. on the end both options are ok for me :)
<Nafallo> asac: people can branch those branches anonymously (http) without any risk at all surely :-)
<Nafallo> that also makes for needed reviews of the merges, since they have to ask for it :-)
<Nafallo> I lean towards option 2.
<Jazzva> Nafallo: Any m-e-d member can contribute to them, I suppose that's where the risk of breakage is... But what asac said sounds reasonable, too...
<Jazzva> Maybe we can compromise. To try the first option for some period, and then if we don't get more contributors, then to fall back to the second option?
<fta> asac, if we auto accept (option 1), how do we get rid of people doing nothing ? (ie, those who just collect team memberships)
<asac> Nafallo: right. good point.
<asac> fta: the idea was to have a trial-period
<asac> like 3 month ... then looking if there is activity
<fta> even for opt1 ?
<asac> fta: only for opt1, Jazzva ?
<asac> e.g. auto admission == trial
<Jazzva> fta, asac: yes
<asac> e.g. merio-admission == no trial
<asac> merito :)
<Volans> Jazzva: for the risk you tell maybe setting a team policy (best practice) that a contact must push only branches of the extensions he is the contact can help^
<Jazzva> asac: Well, if we they contribute, I think they can be accepted to the team :)
<asac> i think the question is if extension-dev members can sign off packages that then get automatically uploaded
<asac> if there always is a review step by mozillateam members required, we can auto admit i guess
<JenFraggle> would a mentoring option work?  Part of the trial would be working with someone who can monitor their contributions?  not sure how many people to expect to join
<asac> JenFraggle: imo mentoring should be done in a non-dedicated fashion
<Jazzva> asac: Is that possible in LP?
<asac> the whole #ubuntu-mozillateam channel is aleays your mentor :)
<Jazzva> (for review thingy...)
<Nafallo> I think we are walking a thin line here... automatically accept people for packages that potentially gets auto-uploaded? there is a reason we have policys for getting upload rights in the first place. a reviewer can always miss things in branches.
<asac> Jazzva: there is a feature where users can review/vote for patches
<asac> we could say that "two positive" votes of m-e-d members would trigger upload
<asac> or one positive by m-t members
<asac> fta: you already saw that feature in action, didnt you?
<Jazzva> But what if those two positive votes are from new, auto-approved m-e-d members?
<asac> e.g. sign off merges
<Jazzva> The "one positive m-t" sounds good...
<asac> Jazzva: right. thats why i now lean a bit more to option 2 :)
<rzr> hi
<Jazzva> Hey, rzr...
<asac> even if we dont implement that right from the beginning, i would at least keep the option open
<asac> to do it :)
<Nafallo> how do other teams to this?
<Jazzva> Well, here's one more: Let's try option 1 for 3 months, with one-positive vote from m-t and see if that goes well. If it doesn't, we can go to option 2...
<asac> the other option would be to not couple the "review-power" with team membership at all, but maintain a list of valid reviewers
<Nafallo> surely there must be things like the desktop team that has contributors?
<RainCT> m-t?
<Jazzva> RainCT: ~mozillateam
<asac> Nafallo: they go over sponsorship unless you can upload to ubuntu on your own
<fta> asac, yes, the new voting system for branch merge requests
<RainCT> ah ok
<fta> asac, not sure it triggers an upload though
<asac> fta: you tink its better to couple voting powers with team membership or by maintaining a manual list of reviewers?
<asac> fta: sure it doesnt ... thats what we need to implement :)
<Nafallo> hmm. option 2 is basically sponsorship, but with branches rather than debdiffs...
<asac> (welll at least a merge to the release branch)
<asac> Nafallo: right
 * Nafallo likes option 2 :-)
<Jazzva> Nafallo: Yes, for the beginning. Then we add that contributor to the team
<asac> ok ... so what are the requirements for joining if we have criterias?
 * rzr thinks branches is better thatn debdiff
 * asac assumes that we settle on option 2
<Jazzva> Anyone against option 2?
<rzr> 3, 2, 1
<fta> asac, i'm not sure lp could restrict voting powers. I stand for option 2
<Jazzva> I suppose that we're for option 2...
<rzr> 0 ; opt 2 is sold for 1000$
<asac> no objection. lets go for iut
<Jazzva> :)
<asac> ACTION: someone to draft m-e-d team requirements
<asac> for admission :)
<Jazzva> We might want them to package an extension ;). That would be the best :).
<Jazzva> as a criteria
<asac> ok ... what are the requirements?
<asac> no strict rules, but a vote during mozillateam meeting?
<asac> Jazzva: well. i guess that packaging an extension is a basic requirement for sure
<Jazzva> Hehe :)
<Volans> PROPOSAL: make a branch in the personal LP page with a funcional extension and the debian folder?
<asac> but i doubt that packaging an extension just once and then going away is not good enough
<fta> package an extension, or update an existing extension needing love
<Nafallo> work with the reviewer and he would then be the best to tell when the individual is considered ready?
<Volans> in this way mozillateam members can check the work
<Jazzva> asac: Sure... Maintaining it is also good :)
<rzr> 1 package + 1 bug fix would be show that he's confortable with the process
<Jazzva> Nafallo: I think it would be good if more people could say that one is ready...
<rzr> + n bug fix
<asac> i really think updating extensions should get in the equation
<asac> otherwise we will end up with zillions of branches, that nobody updates :)
<Nafallo> asac: +1
<Jazzva> Nafallo: That would go in accordance with "whole #ubuntu-mozillateam is your mentor". That way more people get to meet a prospective developer
<rzr> +2
<asac> so maybe: at least 1. new extension, and 3 updates?
<Nafallo> Jazzva: good point
<JenFraggle> having less extensions but updated ones is better than lots of unloved extensions
<Jazzva> asac: +1 on that... with "maintaining extension" requirement
<asac> ok.
<asac> how about expiring anyway? e.g. if there is no activity for 6 month we should probably expire members too (with the option to join back whenever they want)
<fta> asac, maybe we should recommend newcomers to work in ~id/+junk/branchname instead of in the project tree, to avoid pollution.
<Jazzva> asac: Sounds good...
<Volans> IMHO there will be two different kind of members: those who help packaging extensions just for help the packaging process and those who package and mantein their own extension (extension developer). You can require that the first kind of members when package an extension have also to maintan the same extension
<asac> fta: good point
<asac> fta: can all submissions for merging be done in +junk?
<fta> asac, no idea
<fta> worth a try
<shirish> hi all, I hate to say this but the documentation lacks at many a places, could something be done about that?
<Jazzva> asac, fta: Well, it can be copied to other branch, if it can't be merged from +junk, right?
<ubuntu-laptop> i  need a few before i can talk
<fta> Jazzva, right
<asac> Volans: shirish we have an agenda item about that later :)
<ubuntu-laptop> my connection is not working. only wireless is working it seems
<shirish> I dunno if this is time or perhaps at the end of the meet, asac, fta ?
<Jazzva> shirish: Doc? Wiki pages? That's also on agenda :)
<shirish> Jazzva: yup
<shirish> :)
<asac> Volans: right. i think extension authors (as in upstream) that want to maintain their package can be added to the team after they finished their own package
<Jazzva> Hey, gnomefreak. Welcome :)
<fta> shirish, add your idea in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings, we'll see
<asac> gnomefreak: \o/
<gnomefreak> hi Jazzva
<gnomefreak> hi asac
<asac> ok .... lets sign off the procedure:
<gnomefreak> im pissed and working on a conection atm
<asac> 1 package + 3 updates
<gnomefreak> brb
<asac> after that regular contributions of not defined amount ;)
<asac> for upstream extension authors we have an exception that they just need to have finished their own extension package
<asac> is that high enough bar for joining m-e-d?
<asac> any objectsions?
<Jazzva> Fine by me.
<Nafallo> sounds shiny :-)
<fta> asac, ok for "1 package + 3 updates", but coupled with resignation after 3 (6?) months of inactivity
<asac> 3
<Volans> sounds good
<asac> fta: i think 6 month of inactivity is ok
<Jazzva> 3 updates of their packages, or any packages?
<asac> Jazzva: well ... doesnt really matter i'd say
<Jazzva> Cool :)
<fta> 6 months is a full cycle, may be too much
<asac> fta: so you want to put more pressure on m-e-d members?
<asac> :)
<Nafallo> fta: and if the extension they are interested doesn't get updated for the period?
<asac> we could align the review with the release time.
<fta> i just want people to feel concerned
<Jazzva> I think 6 would be better. That way people are not under pressure of working :)
<Nafallo> would we need to tie this to a working extension for current firefox maybe? + track upstream
<asac> e.g. review 1 month before we release ... to give contributors an incentive to do their housekeeping :)
<JenFraggle> i say 6 rather than 3
<asac> fta: i'd say that 6 is ok if we dont really have dedicated maintainers ... e.g. everybody can work on any extension
<asac> with dedicated maintainers 6 would be too long
<asac> ok have we reached a consent?
<asac> pointer: we have a bunch of other items on agenda :)
<Jazzva> I'm ok with this :)
<fta> i'm ok with 6 if there's nothing to do on the extension the user worked on. but if we detect new upstream versions, but no work from 3 months, i find that quite long..
<gnomefreak> can someone post results on the meeting agenda or email me the logs
<fta> -from+after
<asac> fta: right. i'd say we review before release and decide case-by-case ... with the 6 month rule-of-thumb
<Jazzva> gnomefreak: I can do it...
<fta> asac, ok
<Nafallo> asac: +1
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: thanks
<asac> anyone against having a rule-of-thumb of 6 month that can be changed by meeting decision?
<Jazzva> gnomefreak: No problem. Are you gonna stay for your agenda items?
<asac> gnomefreak: we are still on first item: "extension dev membership"
<asac> ok lets do it that way then for now
<asac> next item :)
<gnomefreak> i doubt it i need to get a working pc other than this laptop
<gnomefreak> asac: 6 & 3????
<Jazzva> gnomefreak: If you can, we can do your agenda items now... or at the end of the meeting.
<asac> i'd say since gnomefreak is now here we go directly to his items (which are the first on the agenda)
<Jazzva> Sure...
<asac> TOPIC: Team Tags and Status changes
<fta> which is "We need a set of tags to keep and others to remove or combine in other tags also i would like feedback on what wikis to update since most are old. Feedback on these wikis would be great or some ideas and i will save everything as notes for a to do list and go from there "
<gnomefreak> ok with tags i was thinking of ones we need to remove or add
<asac> i think its agreed that the current bug procedures are too formal and we should come to something more simple
<gnomefreak> correct
<Jazzva> MT tags: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/Tags
<asac> my vision is: keep it really simple and let most of the bug work be done by the bugsquad and bugcontrol (QA) team
<Jazzva> MT states: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/States
<gnomefreak> i want bug triagers to use mt-confirm instead of marking confirmed
<gnomefreak> or other tags
<gnomefreak> im seeing alot of bugs being closed for no reason lately
<asac> in preparation of this meeting - based on discussion we had with bdmurray - i did setup https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/TriagersHandbook
<fta> so far, we are really bad with mt-upstream and mt-postupstream :(
<asac> right
<fta> not sure the QA team wants to do that
<asac> fta: they want to help
<asac> (with support of mozillateam)
<asac> the upstream procedure is a topic on its own
<asac> based on UDS discussion i drafted https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/UpstreamBugProceduresIntrepid
<gnomefreak> WE should push to upstream IMHO since we know what needs to be dpone
<asac> the current topic is ment to fix the horrible situation for bug triage _before_ bugs actually get forwarded
<asac> the handbook above tries to support the upstream triage, by introducing a "standard format" of bug summaries/descriptions
<asac> (look at requirements for confirmed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/TriagersHandbook)
<Jazzva> Well, TriagersHandbook looks good to me. It's quite simple - when it's confirmed, notify upstream :)
<shirish> shouldn't it be both bugs and patches in a way that is easier for upstream to work with
<asac> shirish: patches are a rare case i guess
<asac> how dont they fit in the triagers handbook?
<fta> patches need to be attached to bugs, so it's covered
<Jazzva> shirish: We might not be able to produce patches if they're deep in the code. Maybe it would be better if upstream plays with it
<Jazzva> (at least, that's my opinion :))
<asac> even if we have a patch that fixes something, a bug still needs to be of the proper form as upstream certainly wants a good description on what get actually fixed
<shirish> true
<asac> ... so imo patches dont make the handbook unapplicable
<asac> do we want to add a hint about what to do with patches to that handbook?
<Jazzva> asac: It might be good
<asac> ok
<asac> ACTION: add how to upstream patches to the triagers handbook and how it fits in the general procedure :)
<fta> asac, what about when a user contributes a patch, then it's posted upstream but upstream wants changes. how will the initial user know ?
<shirish> it might also fit in with ubuntu-marketing to let other people know of ubuntu's contribution to packages.
<asac> fta: good question. i think one requirement is to CC the ubuntu@bugs.distro users on forwarded bugs upstrewam
<asac> we can tehn setup a mailing list that will get the traffic
<asac> so if there are questions we can react; bug the initial submitter; or look for someone who can work in what upstream has asked for
<asac> fta: is that good enough?
<fta> yes
<JenFraggle> i've got to go guys, sorry
<asac> Jazzva: cu. thanks!
<Jazzva> Ok, JenFraggle... See you :)
<asac> ok. i think the topic "bug states" is well covered as we are already improving the wiki
<asac> and the general direction to tap more bugsquad and QA members for general triage is also consent i guess
<Jazzva> anyone have something to add, before we move on to the next topic?
<shirish> wait
<asac> lets move ahead. if anyone gets more ideas we can also move it to mailing list
<asac> shirish: ?
<shirish> what about wikis that need to be updated
<shirish> wasn't that part of the 1st topic as well.
<asac> shirish: we are already working on new documents that finally will replace the current pages
<Jazzva> shirish: It's coming later ;)... It's MozillaTeam Wiki item.
<shirish> ok, a link to sneak-peak ?
<asac> is that what you are asking for?
<asac> shirish: i posted them above :)
<Jazzva> shirish: This was about bugs tags, states and triaging
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/TriagersHandbook
<shirish> no no
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/UpstreamBugProceduresIntrepid
<shirish> ok, what I meant if there is some finished work I could see of a wiki docuement
<gnomefreak> i need people to look for issues with them and let me know what needs to be worked out. we have too many wikis for me to go through and look on my own
<asac> shirish: dont understand what you mean?
<asac> ok, arte we on next topic now?
<asac> shirish: ?`
<gnomefreak> asac: that needs to be updated with UDS results
<shirish> asac: I meant how the new wiki is being structured or what things are being looked at
<asac> is your question about "Team Tags and Status changes " or "MozillaTeam Wiki "
<asac> ?
<gnomefreak> asac: mozilla wikis in general for topic 2
<asac> ok ... i am fine to move to that topic
<gnomefreak> read my post above
<shirish> "MozillaTeam Wiki:
<asac> Though next one would have been "Thunderbird Extension"
<shirish> asac: i can wait
<gnomefreak> asac: we can work out tags and status' more on ML or in #u-m-t
<asac> ok, lets push that back and go ahead with "MozillaTeam wiki"
<asac> gnomefreak: right
<asac> ok
<asac> TOPIC: "MozillaTeam wiki"
<asac> RATIONALE: We need to clean up the wikis for the MozillaTeam, for example taking a wiki that has conversations posted should be changed to a complete wiki, this will help users understand it more. All MozillaTeam's and ExtensionTeams's wikis should have CategoryMozillaTeam, CategoryBugSquad at the bottom of wiki page
<gnomefreak> asac: im not looking at agenda page
<asac> i think nobody will disagree that we should add the Category everywhere
<asac> anyone volunteers to do this work?
<gnomefreak> asac: thats about the jist of it, also need old wikis that freddy and alex were working on need to be updated also davids wikis
<Jazzva> If it's not important atm, I can help in a week or two...
<gnomefreak> asac: i will
<asac> e.g. every mozillateam page gets CategoryMozillaTeam and every MozillaTeam/Bugs/ page gets CategoryBugSquad as well?
<gnomefreak> asac: i need to get things worked out before hacking the hell out of them though
<shirish> can help with that.
<gnomefreak> asac: no
<gnomefreak> well maybe
<asac> shirish: great.
<asac> ok so
<shirish> there is one thing more which bites me though
<asac> ACTION: properly categorize MozillaTeam wiki pages
<shirish> many of the pages don't follow a particular structure
<gnomefreak> asac: you want to use cat.bugsquad and mozillateam  cats.?
<gnomefreak> shirish: thats why i have been working on them
<shirish> please note this is not just with the mozillateam but with all.
<shirish> gnomefreak: thanx
<gnomefreak> shirish: we had 2 people doing wikis and they left
<asac> gnomefreak: al pages that belong to mozillateam get MT cat ... the Bugs/ pages get bugsquad category on top of that
 * gnomefreak only concerned with our at this time
<gnomefreak> asac: ok
<shirish> it would be nice if we had a place for people to know what or how they are expected to write, some structure documentation is good.
<asac> shirish: want to become the official wiki lead for the mozillateam?
<asac> :)
<gnomefreak> ours need more work than bugsquad
<shirish> asac: thanx for the offer, but would decline, of course would help with whatever little I know or can do.
<asac> shirish: i ment: "take the lead on wiki cleanup" :)
<shirish> gnomefreak: perhaps we can collaborate on this
<gnomefreak> asac: i got the lead once i have a working connections the power outage burned up something
<asac> basically means: going through, looking if things still apply; if in doubt ask on ubuntu-mozillateam
<gnomefreak> shirish: yes that is fine :)
<asac> and remove outdated things
<asac> ok
<shirish> asac: right, that's not an issue
<asac> ACTION: gnomefreak and shirish work together on initial MozilaTeam wiki cleanup :)
<gnomefreak> biggest wikis are membership, bugs, states, tags
<shirish> asac: apart from that
<shirish> if we could have just some idea for a newbie who wants to put stuff on the wiki what goes where, how and what
<gnomefreak> asac: just need an outline of what tags you would like to keep. and what ones to dump so get with me on this once im on my desktop
<gnomefreak> shirish: wiki in general orformat of ours?
<asac> shirish: we can offer to help users to find the right place in #ubuntu-mozillateam or on mailing list
<shirish> gnomefreak: ?
<asac> i think its hard to write a proper documentation that covers enough cases to be really useful
<shirish> right. Lemme explain what I mean
<gnomefreak> shirish: if we could have just some idea for a newbie who  wants to put stuff on the wiki what goes where, how  and what
<shirish> lots of wiki pages which are there are disconnected to the projects from where they came from or what's happening there.
<shirish> gnomefreak: I meant ur answer "ï»¿wiki in general orformat of ours?"
<asac> shirish: thts why we want to add the categories
<asac> shirish: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryMozillaTeam
<asac> those are all pages that claim themselves that they belong to mozillateam
<asac> you basically add that to the bottom of the page
<shirish> asac: I know that
<asac> ah :)
<gnomefreak> be right back erin is having connection issues as well :(
<shirish> what I meant was more precise let me take an example to explain what I mean
<shirish> now let's say w.u.c/wiki/Webkit
<shirish> now while Webkit gives a surmise of what it is, it doesn't give any link to www.webkit.org or any blogs or anything of the developer who's developing upstream
<Jazzva> shirish: There's a link at the end of the page :)
<shirish> ï»¿now while Webkit wiki page gives a surmise of what it is, it doesn't give any link to www.webkit.org or any blogs or anything of the developer who's developing upstream
<asac> ok
<asac> shirish: i think such quality standards should be enforced outside the mozillateam
<asac> we can only come up with policies that are mozillateam specific
<shirish> right but there could be many more so it makes for people interesting for the project.
<asac> e.g. if you make a firefox extension page, do this, that and whatever :)
<asac> shirish: i think the right group to enforce and draft such general policies would be the Documentation Team
<Jazzva> asac: +1 on that
<shirish> ok cool
<asac> shirish: could you look which pages of the MOzillaTeam might fall into a category that could benefit from such general procedures?
<shirish> asac: not at the top of my mind, but yes for sure.
<asac> good
<asac> ok. i think thats it for wiki cleanup topic for now?
<asac> gnomefreak: ?
<asac> as it fits to this discussion, I'd suggest to move to "Extensions related wiki pages "
<asac> TOPIC: Extensions related wiki pages
<fta> he said something about connection issues
<asac> Jazzva: ?
<Jazzva> Right :)
<asac> fta: ok. lets discuss this with him outside the meeting and followup on mailing list
<fta> k
<asac> Jazzva: what do you suggest regarding extension pages?
<Jazzva> I was thinking of setting up extensions' related wiki pages under MozillaTeam/Extensions/, so they're not mixed with the general MozillaTeam pages. For example. Current MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions/Packaging would be MozillaTeam/Extensions/Packaging, and MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions could be ... dunno, MozillaTeam/Extensions/List
<asac> Jazzva: so you want to remove "Firefox" from the context?
<gnomefreak> we should do that but in sense of a firefox one a tbird one ect... as main pages
<asac> e.g. remove it from wiki name
<asac> gnomefreak: +
<Jazzva> That would also apply to the rest of the pages that are related to extensions' stuff. I don't think there will be many pages to go to the MozillaTeam/Extensions/, on the other hand
<gnomefreak> this way we dont have ff and tb messed in one page
<Jazzva> asac: gnomefreak's idea is good
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: just keep our heading and add to that
<asac> so MozillaTeam/Extensions/Packaging (e.g. for general mozilla extension packaging)
<Nafallo> ehrm. so s/3//g ? :-)
<asac> and MOzillaTeam/Extensions/Firefox/List (for firefox 3 extension list) ?
<gnomefreak> leave MozillaTeam/firefox/extensions band so on
<Nafallo> ah
<Jazzva> Yep, something like that...
<gnomefreak> asac: replace list with the autual pages
<asac> gnomefreak: one page per extensions?
<gnomefreak> actual
<asac> hmm
<Volan1> and for other mozilla programs? (seamonley, ecc..)
<asac> i like the table
<Jazzva> Thought, we need to know what to do with extensions which both work in FF and TB
<gnomefreak> asac: no one page per firefox extensions
<asac> Volan1: what kind of information would be on a Seamonkey page?
<fta> drop firefox, it's also valid for thunderbird, seamonkey, prism, flock, songbird, and who knows what
<gnomefreak> no not all are for the same
<asac> fta: for the Packaging page i concur
<Jazzva> I'm with asac on this, there are not many info for an actual page, and it already fits in the table layout.
<asac> but also for the List page?
<Volan1> asac: I mean for extension list... the extensions that work only for FFor for example for FF and Flock and SeaMonkey
<gnomefreak> seamonkey extensions may not work with ff i have seena  few of these
<asac> Volan1: ok. i think that info could be added to the table
<gnomefreak> songbird ones wont work with ff
<Volan1> package instruction unified and separeted list can be a solution?
<gnomefreak> so instead of bunching them on one page make separate pages
<asac> ok. so i think the initial suggestion by jazzva is the one that is best maintainable
<asac> e.g. drop firefox from the page name completely
<asac> and have an attribute in the table that declares which applications are supported
<Jazzva> Maybe we don't need special table for every program. Many extensions work in more than one program. So, it would be easier to track them, if we add a new "works with programs" column
<asac> e.g. a new colum
<gnomefreak> yes and use ff if the page is a ff related page
<asac> Jazzva: ack. thats what i mean
<asac> so MozillaTeam/Extensions == the grand unified table page
<asac> and MOzillaTeam/Extensions/Packaging == packaging instructions
<Jazzva> That's another part of the item :)..
<gnomefreak> maybe instead of that why not use a separate heading
<asac> gnomefreak: example?
<Jazzva> Should we keep MT/Extensions as the homepage with pointers to the other sections, and leave the list apart from that, or to just add the list there?
<asac> Jazzva: what other information would we have there?
<gnomefreak> heading Thunderbird extensions under it add the same tables that are there
<asac> Jazzva: maybe link to packaging, largescalemaintenance, list
<gnomefreak> like we did with dont work header and such
<asac> Jazzva: ok, i think we have enough to move the list out of that page
<Jazzva> asac: That's good. Now that I think of it, only few pointers are needed :)
<asac> Jazzva: well. there might be more in future
<Jazzva> Right...
<asac> there might be various variants, like backports procedure, SRU procedure
<asac> and so on
<Jazzva> soren, we can go for MT/Ext/List...
<asac> Jazzva: yes
<Jazzva> autocomplete again, sorry...
<fta> lol
 * Jazzva turns autocomplete off ...
<asac> anyone voluteers to do the renaming of the extension pages
<Nafallo> finally :-)
<asac> like discussed?
<Jazzva> asac: I'll take care of it...
<asac> Jazzva: maybe you should glue your finger to not hit "tab" whenver you start an IRC line :)
<Jazzva> asac: it autocompletes with "," after first word :)
<Volan1> lol
<Nafallo> autoautocompletion :-P
<Jazzva> I don't know why I turned that on in the first place... stupid thing ... :sighs:
<asac> ACTION: jazzva to reorganize extension wiki pages :)
<Jazzva> Anyway, anyone have something to add?
<asac> if so, lets go for mailing list :)
<Jazzva> Or can we move to the next topic :)...
<asac> TOPIC: Thunderbird extensions
<Volan1> Jazzva: use icons in the copatible program column ;)
<asac> i think that topic is not really a topic as everybody concurs that we should have that
<gnomefreak> are we getting them?
<Jazzva> Volan1, good idea :)...
<asac> we already discussed that the information which applications are supported to into a column of the extensions table
<gnomefreak> this was talked about at UDS i thought
<asac> personally, I'd say we should not start to maintain tbird extensions manually (like we did for ffox3 extensions atm)
<shirish> I have a query but don't know if this is time or the place for the same?
<gnomefreak> asac: wait for tb3?
<asac> but wait till we have the intiial prototype of LargeScaleMaintainence in place
<asac> gnomefreak: no. just wait for our support infrastructure to be available
<Jazzva> I think it's just a little change to the default XPI.TEMPLATE to get TB extensions to work. If we want, we can setup XPI.TEMPLATE.TB, too...
<asac> shirish: we will have "other business" at the end
<shirish> ok cool
<Nafallo> ububird? :-)
<asac> Jazzva: we can think about it :)
<Jazzva> Nafallo, lol :)
<asac> Jazzva: but i think we can adapt the documentation as required, e.g. once someone starts a tbird extension
<gnomefreak> asac: that would than make tbird ext. not to share a page with others since we are gonna have 2 different proceedure pages, a how to build
<Jazzva> asac, imagezoom is a TB extension too, and I'm maintaining it ;)
<asac> gnomefreak: i dont think that the procedures are different enough to justify a separate page
<fta> i agree
<asac> yeah. so imagezoom already supports thunderbird
<gnomefreak> in other words keep build instrucions/help pages separate if they are not the same
<asac> Jazzva: but you already know how to do it :) ... so you probably dont rely on the docs ;)
<Jazzva> (that is, if I included that patch... I think I did, if not I have to :))
<gnomefreak> as in it uses a separate XPI template
<asac> gnomefreak: if they are different enough
<Jazzva> (nope, it's gonna be sorted in next upload)
<gnomefreak> ick patching extesions?
<asac> gnomefreak: in our case we can better add a few example lines in the template rules:
<gnomefreak> asac: true
<asac> ok. so the only action i see is to improve the XPI.TEMPLATE to also cover thunderbird
<asac> is that right?
<asac> and once there is demand add a section about thunderbird to the Packaging page
<Jazzva> Yep. And document that on Packaging wiki page
<gnomefreak> since they dont use a patch system at all and are relativly nothing to hem why patch it instead add fixes to upstream builds and make a diff for upstream to add
<asac> ok, i volunteer to do that :)
<Nafallo> no ububird? :-(
<asac> ACTION: asac to add thunderbird examples to XPI.TEMPLATE and document that on Packaging page :)
<asac> Nafallo: thats not on the agenda (yet) :)
<asac> ok lets see
<Nafallo> hehe :-)
<asac> anything else to add for thunderbird extensions?
<Volans> sorry for my ignorance but now an extension compatible both with FF and TB necessite 2 different source packages?
<asac> Volans: no. thats not always true
<gnomefreak> Nafallo: good idea as long as its not added to suggestions since apt now installs suggestions
<asac> Volans: there are extensions like imagezoom that work in tbird + ffox
<asac> the intersection of thunderbird vs. firefox extensions should be quite small though ... more probably exist for seamonkey vs. firefox
<fta> adblock+ works almost everywhere
 * Nafallo stabs apt
<Jazzva> Volans, and it will depend on firefox | firefox-3.0 | firefox-2 | thunderbird... that way dependencies are sorted out. If user has TB, it will install
<gnomefreak> asac:  as i understand there are char. limits that is liked in packaging ext. we should really raise them
 * shirish loved apt
<Jazzva> the extensions, and will not complain if no FF package is present
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jun 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 24 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 24 Jun 15:00 UTC:  Server Team | 24 Jun 18:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 25 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 25 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team
<Volans> Jazzva and asac thankd for the clarification
<Jazzva> np :)
<asac> ok
<asac> gnomefreak: can we discuss that in #ubuntu-mozillateam later?
<asac> otherwise lets move on ...
<asac> TOPIC: Meetings
<gnomefreak> asac: sure that was just a comment. it may not be today unless i get pcs wprking
<fta> asac, maybe we can rely on mozilla-devscripts to install the links to the various extensions dirs, instead of have to that in each ext
<asac> SUMMARY: We should have a meeting at least once a month or whatever we can decide on. This will help in membership approval as well as keeping everyone updated and keeping our support docs up to date. Once a month is just a suggestion.
<asac> fta: we already do that
<gnomefreak> asac: atleast once a month and always a week or 2 after UDS
<asac> fta: we could try to introduce more automation
<asac> gnomefreak: you think its realistic to have monthly meetings?
<asac> a month is quite short.
 * gnomefreak trying to think of best times to meet about current devel ect
<asac> I'd be happy to do that, but someone needs to organize them :)
<gnomefreak> asac: im thinking about it atm
<gnomefreak> asac: maybe when we reach a certain amount of agenda points?
<asac> if we have monthly meetings then i dont think we need special meeting after UDS
<Jazzva> brb
<gnomefreak> asac: thats why im thinking about it
<asac> gnomefreak: well. imo we should try to get a regular meeting in place
<Volans> proposal: once a month if there is something in the agenda...
<gnomefreak> maybe every 6 weeks
<Nafallo> gnomefreak: +1
<asac> yeah, problem is that people are always lazy to add agenda items
<asac> even though there are things to discuss
<asac> so Id like to get a regular schedule
<gnomefreak> that will give us enough time to get what this meeting needs done
<asac> 6 weeks sounds reasonable
<asac> anyone disagrees?
<Volans> +1
<shirish> +1 on that
<asac> who volunteers to prepare the schedule for the next half year or so?
<gnomefreak> EVERYONE  add points to agenda as you think of them please
<asac> and get that on the fridge and wiki?
<gnomefreak> this way its not thrown together like this time
<asac> at best the same person would send multiple reminders as well :)
<gnomefreak> asac: set it on wiki and i will get it on  fridge 2 weeks before meeting
<Volans> asac: what permission are needed to set meetings?
<asac> like 2 weeks in advance "early" notice to mailing list .... 1 week and a day before meeting to mailing list and all team members :)
<gnomefreak> asac: i can do that as normal
<Jazzva> _1
<Jazzva> +1
<asac> Volans: none. you need to fridge admins to add them
<asac> i never did that ;)
<gnomefreak> i had one ready to send to planet but sister came down and i forgot
<asac> gnomefreak is probably the best candidate; anyone wants to be his backup?
<Nafallo> topic here as well I guess. or is that automagic?
<Volans> if nobody can I can help for that
<asac> Nafallo: thats the meeting bot
<asac> Nafallo: depends on what you got added to the fridge calendar
<Nafallo> shiny :-)
 * gnomefreak has a few people i talk with regularly from fridge dev tema
<asac> Volans: ok thanks
<gnomefreak> asac:  was the bot fixed to post minutes?
<asac> ACTION: gnomefreak and Volans to create meeting schedule for next 6 month and take care of getting those meeting on fridge and sending preannouncements :)
<asac> gnomefreak: no the bot is gone today :(
<asac> gnomefreak: i wanted to use the MootBot, but it disappeared
 * gnomefreak wonders if its worth looking into
<asac> gnomefreak: we should
<gnomefreak> asac: it didnt post minutes anyway
<asac> gnomefreak: yes, but TOPCIS and ACTIONS
<asac> and so on
<asac> not tha bad
<asac> and logs afaik
<gnomefreak> we need a place to post them and than i will talk with the admins of it to see if we can add plugins on where to post them
<asac> gnomefreak: ok. mayber suggest your findings on mailing list once you have options :)
<gnomefreak> asac: ok that works
<asac> ok
<asac> lets move on :)
<asac> TOPIC: Large scale Extensions - Next steps
<gnomefreak> whos is htat?
<gnomefreak> that?
<Nafallo> asac
<asac> i think there is not much to say exept that its not yet ready and that we will keep you updated on mozillateam mailing list
<asac> maybe a reminder to subscribe to that list if you havent done so yet
<gnomefreak> asac: what is it?
<asac> its really low traffic
<gnomefreak> what list?
 * gnomefreak so lost
<asac> gnomefreak: mt list
<asac> gnomefreak: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions/LargeScaleMaintenance
<asac> i talked a bit about this in the beginning of this meeting
<asac> gnomefreak: maybe read the log of this channel
<Nafallo> baah. low traffic is what they all say in the beginning, then you have to change MUA to keep up :-P
<asac> Nafallo: look at the stats
<asac> its like 15 mails a month or so
<gnomefreak> ah ok
<Jazzva> asac, 15 mails/month is a lot of traffic afaics ;)
<gnomefreak> Nafallo: pretty much 1 topic every couple of months
<asac> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-mozillateam
<asac> Jazzva: you must be kidding
<asac> Jazzva: a lot in terms of MT mailing list :)
<asac> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2008-June/thread.html
<asac> thats june so far
<asac> quite active
<asac> month
<asac> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2008-May/thread.html
<Jazzva> Oh, my... didn't notice :)
<asac> may was more silent :)
<gnomefreak> asac: ok work needs to be done on that wiki
<gnomefreak> ?
<gnomefreak> before its ready for wide spread?
<asac> gnomefreak: you mean largescale maintenance?
<asac> it needs to be updated while we implement it
<asac> its not ment to be wide spread
<gnomefreak> asac: yes that would e it
<gnomefreak> be
<asac> gnomefreak: i think that document is not ment for consumption by extension maintainers
<gnomefreak> widespread as in people using it to help with our extensions
<asac> its more ment to outline the details of what needs to be done from a technical pov
<gnomefreak> what is it for than?
<shirish> gnomefreak: thanx, for I haven't been able to understand much of it. +1 on cleaning up LargeScaleMaintainance Wiki
<gnomefreak> ah ok
<asac> once its working we will have to udpate the Packaging page to reflect the new workflow
<gnomefreak> ok i see what you are doijng now
<asac> shirish: its not ment for consumption by package maintainers
<gnomefreak> thanks
<asac> shirish: the packaging page will have the high-level view onto the semi-automatic workflow
<gnomefreak> shirish: its a behind the seans for outlines until posted to the packaging ect... pages
<asac> s/seans/scenes/ :)
<gnomefreak> yeah that thanks brain fart
<asac> so to summarize this agenda item:
<gnomefreak> oh asac if i find out that network manager is causing my issues im gonna fly to where you are with my pcs and tell you to fix :(
<asac> next steps are: finish the largescalemaintenance infrastrcuture
<shirish> couldn't that be worked with having some nice illustration perhaps? Would make sense to some more people perhaps?
<asac> then document high-level view of workflow in Packaging
<asac> shirish: the high-level view?
<gnomefreak> \sh: for what?
<gnomefreak> damn
<gnomefreak> shirish: ^^^
<asac> shirish: i think having illustratinos would be helpful :)
<asac> to illustrate the workflow
<asac> but someone has to do that ;)
 * gnomefreak can help someone once they decide what they want
<gnomefreak> but i will not take lead on that
<gnomefreak> too much to do with wikis as is
<asac> gnomefreak: shirish: lets defer the Packaging documetnation details until we are doing them :)
<gnomefreak> asac: +1
<asac> ok, i think we have two items left on agenda :)
<Jazzva> I can help with picking out the packaging related details from LargeScaleMaintenance and copying them to Packaging :)
<Jazzva> Yay :)
<asac> TOPIC: Extension Team Marketing
<asac> is anyone here who likes to blog?
<asac> :)
<gnomefreak> oh crap thats gonna be fun
<gnomefreak> asac: i blog more than most
<Jazzva> asac, from time to time... When I get an idea ;)
<asac> wat i have in mind is to post monthly reports on the extension packaging process
<gnomefreak> if someone writes an outline of what they want i can edit and post
<asac> what
<asac> for that we have to find someone who publishes them
<gnomefreak> asac: monthly?
<asac> and more importantly we need to decide on what metrics to include in that report
<gnomefreak> my blog is connected to ubuntu planet
<Jazzva> Well, would be good if blog has Planet Ubuntu access...
<asac> my initial suggestion would be:
<Jazzva> gnomefreak, yay :)
<asac> 1. extensions updated this month
<asac> 2. new extensions suggested this month
<asac> 3. new extensions released this month
<asac> 4. extensions that need to be updated (here a list to the extensions that have a new upstream version)
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: can you outline a page or a set of notes on the suggestions from asac
<Jazzva> gnomefreak, ok. I will tell you when I'm done :)
<gnomefreak> thanks
<asac> 5. total extensions maintained by m-e-d
<Jazzva> np :)
<asac> any other metrics?
<Volans> asac: for me +1, very complete stats
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: im gonna need a few days atleast to fix PCs and hav e abirthday to myself
<Jazzva> 6. don't hesitate to join the team and help out ;)
<asac> we could also include a "medal of honour"  :)
<asac> for the m-e-d member that updated most packages :)
<Nafallo> asac: sounds like UWN material :-)
<gnomefreak> asac: that looks good  and add section for Jazzva idea
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: do we have a wiki on joining the team?
<asac> Jazzva: yeah. we should include a link to our team and some nice docs in the report
<Nafallo> at least part of that
<Jazzva> gnomefreak, no, we formed the requirements on this meeting, and it will be turned into a wiki page
<asac> Nafallo: yeah. UWN could definitly republish it
<gnomefreak> who can script for greasemonkey? offtopic i know
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: thanks :)
<asac> ACTION: write scritps that gather stats for 1. 2. 3. 4. 5.
<asac> fta: ?
<asac> i guess your script is already prepared  for some of those :)
<asac> (e.g. extensions that need updated=
<Volans> asac: written in what languages?
<asac> Volans: for now i wouldnt pitch too high :)
<Nafallo> Volans: ASM ;-)
<Volans> thanks Nafallo
<asac> Volans: english ... and if there are volunters feel free to translate and publish in other forums
<fta> asac, yes, but that will change. it was a quick hack in shell.
<fta> yet, it was enough to impress Jazzva ;)
<gnomefreak> asac: scripts for what?
<Volans> asac: sorry, I meant "script language" ;)
<asac> we could also use the launchpad blog
<shirish> guys, what is the mozillateam's take on other browsers? Are they part of mozillateam or not?
<Jazzva> fta, the output was cool :P
<gnomefreak> your points dont need scripts do they?
<asac> e.g. m-e-d team blog
<asac> ACTION: gnomefreak to blog about stats
<Jazzva> fta, and the script looked impressive :). I'm no good at scripting... :)
<gnomefreak> shirish: depends on what ones you mean
<asac> ACTION: figure out if we can blog on launchpad :)
<fta> gnomefreak, no, but a script to gather those stats for you would definitely help
<Volans> for the maketing side of the stats the e-m-d start page should have an introduction that explain what the team do, hoiw to join, etc...
<gnomefreak> asac: atm no you cant
<Jazzva> asac, I think we can blog on LP.
<gnomefreak> fta: right
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: i havent found a way
<gnomefreak> we can talk to #lp about that
<asac> Volans: so maybe add a MozillaExtensionDevTeam page?
<gnomefreak> they are helpful
<Jazzva> gnomefreak, I'll take a look. I read an announcement for that feature
<shirish> gnomefreak: say all the browsers which are mentioned therein www-browser package
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: thanks i only saw mailing list from lp updated lately
<fta> asac, ok for this ACTION. anyway, it will come with the rest
<gnomefreak> shirish: no we cant as desktop team has thier own that they maintain i think epiphany is released by gnome anyway
<asac> fta: right. but some hackish stats so we can start thigs month would be great :)
<shirish> gnomefreak: thanx
<gnomefreak> we need to find out what vrowsers and who maintains them atm but dont get hopes up
<Volans> asac: also yes, or /MozillaTeam/Extension/Team page
<asac> ACTION: target initial m-e-d report for end of July (or if we are good June)
<gnomefreak> shirish: can you make a list and push talk to mailing list
<asac> Volans: ++
<shirish> gnomefreak: sure +1 say tomorrow or day after, but can definitely do that
<Volans> or DevTeam
<asac> ACTION: someone to create a /MozillaTeam/Extensions/Team page that includes a) short intro, b) requirements to join (as discussed)
<gnomefreak> shirish: i wont get to see it until as late as thurs\day
<fta> asac, ok
<asac> ... and links to the most important resources (e.g. Packaging, etc.)
<asac> ok anything else to add to this item?
<gnomefreak> moday i work on connection tuesday is birthday so im off and  wednesday i take grandmother to hospital for tests
<Volans> maybe we can use gobby for write those wikis all togheter
<gnomefreak> we should really add links to the other pages on the joining team pages
<asac> Volans: not sure. gobby is useful if you write while discussing
<asac> Volans: for that we would need to organize wiki sessions ;)
<asac> for me it works to just use editmoin :)
<gnomefreak> +1 asac
<Volans> ok
<gnomefreak> i wget the page and edit it alot
<gnomefreak> that way i dont lock the wiki up
<asac> yes, editmoin works quite well here ... maybe test that package
<asac> lets move on :)
<asac> (2h already)
<gnomefreak> last item?
<asac> i see two topics left: 1. Proposed members for Ubuntu-MozillaTeam
<asac> 2. Otherw Business :)
<gnomefreak> go to l2 first
<Volans> I can help for those pages but not for texts (due to my not so good english ;))
<gnomefreak> i want smoke
<asac> gnomefreak: i think there are a lot of people waiting for an accept/decline.
<asac> TOPIC: Proposed members for Ubuntu-MozillaTeam
<gnomefreak> asac: we need to remove them if they dont answer the post we give them
<asac> we have one candidate for this meeting
<gnomefreak> but how long to give them to reply?
<asac> Stephen Lau
<asac> steveA[A[A[A[A
<asac> steveups
<gnomefreak> is he here?
<asac> i think he is flock upstream
<gnomefreak> we dont have flock yet
<gnomefreak> are we adding it to intrepid?
<asac> in general i would be fine to add upstreams to mozillateam if they maintain their own packaging branch
<fta> (i hope so)
<asac> but i think he didnt do that yet
<gnomefreak> asac: agreed
<Jazzva> asac: +1
<gnomefreak> upstream should be accepted
<asac> ok, so decline his application asking him to actively contribute to packaging for some time
<asac> he could help fta with packaging flock for instance
<gnomefreak> asac: lets  find out how upstream he is
<asac> fta: do you want to carry that message to him?
<asac> gnomefreak: he is flock (or songbird)
<asac> fta: ?
<gnomefreak> example what he does and last fix he produced
<Jazzva> asac, Songbird... that's what his wiki page says
<gnomefreak> as in is he workoing the front or is he bug working....
<asac> ah ok
<asac> fta: do you want to mentor stevel?
<Jazzva> asac, actually Songbird Developer Advocate... dunno what that actually means :)
<fta> he helped me once, to triage some error messages from Songbird, but that hardly qualified for membership imho
<gnomefreak> songbird devs we need badly. for example the license issue with songbird been worked out?
<gnomefreak> fta: agreed
<asac> fta: ok. i think we should explain to him that he needs to contribute as ~mozillateam only makes sense if he needs write access to branches
<asac> fta: and that we would be willing to help him get started on packaging if he still is interested :)
<gnomefreak> asac: sounds good but i would love to not run him off if possible
<fta> asac, i agree
<asac> fta: nevertheless, he can just stay in channel and contribute without being member
<asac> at some point we could setup a team: "mozillateam-supporters" :)
<gnomefreak> atleast as upstream contact
<asac> or mozillateam-community ;)
<gnomefreak> atleast as upstream contact)
<asac> where everyone who feels the need to be affiliated with Mozillateam can join without requiring active packaging work
<gnomefreak> ;)
<shirish> +1 on that ;)
<gnomefreak> and we move them as we see fit
<asac> gnomefreak: right
<gnomefreak> move up to kmain team
<gnomefreak> -k
<Nafallo> asac: he can branch and poke for merge is he needs write access :-)
<gnomefreak> lets get us fixed first
<asac> ACTION: setup mozillateam-community team and add applicants that do not need branch access or havent otherwise contributed considerably to mozillateam
<gnomefreak> we have alot of work to do as it is trying to reconfig our team
<asac> mozillateam itself as well as m-e-d should be part of tha team Id say
<gnomefreak> yes
<fta> +1
<asac> gnomefreak: we dont need to reconfig our team
<Jazzva> +1 on the idea, it's nice :)
<gnomefreak> before that can happen we need to fix our membership pages to have a process
<asac> ok great :)
<gnomefreak> other wise we have nothing for that team
<asac> i think we are through this lengthy, but fruitful agenda :)
<asac> next topic would be "Other Business" :)
<gnomefreak> who can work on the membership pages for e-d and mt
<Jazzva> Other business? :)
<Jazzva> asac, oh, right :)
<gnomefreak> asac: we need to break that down to topics for next meeting
<shirish> I'm all out of stuff
<gnomefreak> i think that is there as a guide
<asac> gnomefreak: i think we already have an action for the m-e-d page
<shirish> so will see u all l8ter guys
<asac> gnomefreak: the mozillateam page can stay the same
<asac> shirish: thanks!
<shirish> bye all :)
<Jazzva> Have fun, shirish :)
<gnomefreak> asac: ok than i will remove david version 2 from it and clean it up (i havent looked at it in awhile)
<asac> gnomefreak: we can add the info that applicants that dont qualify for mozillateam will be automatically redirected to mozillateam-community
<gnomefreak> ok
<gnomefreak> i like it
<asac> ACTION: asac to document redirection procedure to mozillateam-community on mozillateam membership page
<asac> TOPIC: other business
<asac> anything?
<gnomefreak> should we have a LP mailing list for the communtiy team?
<asac> gnomefreak: for now mozillateam should be enough
<gnomefreak> ok
<asac> i have one thing for other businesses: minutes ;)
<asac> can someone please safe the log of this channel in case ubuntulog failed?
<Jazzva> asac, gnomefreak: Maybe we could have a separate LP list and to post announcements like "New FF is in the archive"?
<asac> s/safe/save/
<asac> Jazzva: we could also use LP blog for that
<Jazzva> asac, I do the auto-logging ;)
<asac> Jazzva: good
<fta> me too
<asac> so given that we get a complete log from this meeting, is there anyone who can write up minutes from this meeting?
<Jazzva> asac, gnomefreak: As for the blog, I took a quick look through mail archive, haven't found that announcement...
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: we need to see if we can blog on LP first i would think instead of list for the moment
<asac> its mostly just pasting TOPICS + ACTIONS
<gnomefreak> Jazzva: see  #launchpad tomorrow :)
<asac> and maybe take a brief look if there are actions we didnt mark as ACTIONS :)
<Jazzva> asac, if no one wants to, I'll do it...
<Jazzva> gnomefreak, k
<gnomefreak> are we done with meeting?
<asac> gnomefreak: almost :)
<asac> just need a minutes drafter.
 * gnomefreak needs to figure this crap out 
<asac> Jazzva: would be great. but just a brief notes thing
<asac> for details just attach the log
<Jazzva> asac, cool :)
<gnomefreak> be back in a few
<asac> we can blog(announce)
<asac> https://edge.launchpad.net/firefox-extensions/+announce
<asac> its per-team, but per projet
<asac> so most likely the drafter of announcements must be driver for that project
<asac> or something
<fta> "Sorry, you don't have permission to access this page. "
<Jazzva> The same...
<asac> fta: ok good. can you test on xulrunner project?
<asac> fta: try now please
<asac> i made mozillateam the driver
<asac> Jazzva: ^^
<fta> same
<Jazzva> nada...
<asac> ok let me flip the maintainer then
<asac> Jazzva: fta: better?
<Jazzva> works now
<asac> good. so apparently only the maintainer can post blog entries for the project
<asac> fine
<asac> i think firefox-extensions news could go through that project for now
<Jazzva> Would be good if we could have that function for teams :).
<asac> and aggregated on our blogs (e.g. mine, gnomefreaks)
<asac> Jazzva: right
<Jazzva> Is it possible to be added? Just to know if it's ok to post a bug report :)
<asac> Jazzva: well ... why not
<asac> Jazzva: open a bug and subscribe me to it
<asac> and let me know :)
<Jazzva> Sure
<asac> so i can confirm this request
<asac> "e.g. Please support Team announcements"
<asac> ok any other business?
<asac> 3
<asac> 2
<asac> 1
<asac> thanks for the last 2.5 hours ;)
<asac> was nice to have a meeting again!
<Jazzva> Yep... good job :D
<asac> if there are open points you felt not be properly dealt with, go ahead and mail mailing list :)
<Jazzva> See you in #ubuntu-mozillateam :)
<asac> see you
 * asac takes a short break
<Volans> see you
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-16
<Vantrax> huzzah
<bodhizazen> Who is leading meeting ?
<pleia2> cprofitt is the best meeting leader :)
<Vantrax> i agree
<jamesrfla> +1 PrivateVoid
<bodhizazen> +1 from me :)
<cprofitt> lol
<Vantrax> lol tabfail
<Vantrax> greg-g are you around?
<jamesrfla> Vantrax: it isn't a tab fail if you were talking to me
<cprofitt> #startmeeting Ubuntu-Learning
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:02. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bodhizazen> can we post links to license options please ?
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] Licensing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Licensing
<cprofitt> [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/
<pleia2> hm, no doctormo
<cprofitt> [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/license/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/license/
<Vantrax> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
<Vantrax> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/
<Vantrax> those are the two licenses under consideration
<bodhizazen> thank you
<cprofitt> [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses
<cprofitt> the only one I am considering is CC-BY-SA for content created by the team
<bodhizazen> and for those of you familiar with the issues, slow down so the others (me?) can follow please :)
<Vantrax> dinda raised some good points about this too. Do we intend for people to be able to use our materials to create a business suppling ubuntu training?
<bodhizazen> no Vantrax
<cprofitt> I think any content that is CC-BY-SA-NC should be relicensed or simply linked to and not hosted
<thewrath> cprofitt: "Attribution Share Alike"
<thewrath> ?
<cprofitt> Vantrax, intend or not want to prohibit?
<Vantrax> CC-BY-SA allows someone to do that
<Vantrax> which was the reason the Desktop Training materials are NC
<cprofitt> thewrath, that means that if you were to use content I create you have to give me attribution and you have to share your derivative work
<thewrath> right
<cprofitt> Vantrax, and there are uses that some might consider commercial that I would want to allow
<thewrath> that is CC BY SA right
<Vantrax> we can supply non-transferable waivers and keep things NC as well as an option
<cprofitt> I have no issue with someone using our material in a in-person course and charging for it.
<cprofitt> as long as they follow the attribution and share their derivative works
<cprofitt> I think including the NC part is pointless as it is not something I or the Ubuntu community is likely to be able to enforce in the first place
<cprofitt> and there are too many 'does this really apply' type questions
<bodhizazen> I think we need an agreement of kinds
<bodhizazen> work posted on the server is "owned" by the UCLP
<Vantrax> yes
<thewrath> bodhizazen: +1
<bodhizazen> authors need to agree to that
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, the group had previously voted on and CC-BY-SA
<cprofitt> is that decision null and void?
<bodhizazen> I think the decision has been questioned
<Vantrax> no, it is being opened for discussion
<cprofitt> I can not agree to it being owned by the UCLP
<bodhizazen> and this meeting is to discuss issues and objections
<Vantrax> cprofitt: in the same way everything posted to UF is 'owned' by UF
<thewrath> cprofitt: why not?
<bodhizazen> I think there are too many complications if the materials are not owned by the UCLP
<cprofitt> Vantrax, actually I am not aware of Ubuntu Forums claiming ownership - please point me to that language
<bodhizazen> cprofitt: that could be clarified by UG in a hearbeat
<thewrath> Vantrax: me as well
<cprofitt> UG?
<bodhizazen> Ubuntu Geek
<cprofitt> I would like to see it on the site... in writing.
<cprofitt> I will discontinue use of Ubuntu Forums if they claim ownership
<cprofitt> Ownership and the right to use are two different things.
<bodhizazen> Let me see what I can find
<Vantrax> im hunting for it atm
<bodhizazen> what is the difference between ownership and right to use that you object to cprofitt ?
<Vantrax> its some legal issue, the same reason MSN Messenger states they own an non transferable license to anything you transmit
<cprofitt> anything published CC-BY-SA should not require UCLP ownership
<cprofitt> If I produce content - I own it - and I choose to license it as CC-BY-SA
<cprofitt> I do not GIVE ownership to Ubuntu or anyone else
<bodhizazen> yes, but individuals claiming ownership for a community project, that is messy
<cprofitt> I do not claim ownership of a community project bodhizazen
<bodhizazen> claiming you own someghitn on a public server is messy
<cprofitt> I do not agree bodhizazen
<cprofitt> that is the entire purpose of CC
<Vantrax> also worth noting, anything on the ubuntu forums is automatically cc-by-sa
<bodhizazen> So if foo posts content
<bodhizazen> and then 6 months later claims s/he owns the content and wants it removed
<bodhizazen> what happens ?
<Vantrax> it might be better to say that
<Vantrax> if we say everything submitted is by-sa then we can say bad luck
<cprofitt> Vantrax, that I can accept... but that does not mean I relinquish my ownership of the material
<Vantrax> because we hold a valid license to use it, and create derivative works:P
<cprofitt> I think you are not understanding the nature of ownership bodhizazen
<bodhizazen> I think not
<Vantrax> we can make the default to give ownership to the project, but allow people to retain it personally
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, have you any legal background?
<Vantrax> if they request it
<bodhizazen> not enough aparently cprofitt
<cprofitt> If Greg-g were here he could settle it...
<cprofitt> I am not 100% on this stuff...
<james_w> cprofitt: you are correct so far as I understand it
<Vantrax> ill retract my previous statement about the forums, I cant back it up. Ill post a link in our channel later if I find something
<cprofitt> but from the discussions he and I have had... and the seminars I have attended in relation to my job
<bodhizazen> well, how can we vote for something if we do not understand it ?
<cprofitt> if a person publishes something as CC-BY-SA they do not relinquish ownership... but they can not stop anyone from using that content as produced as long as the license is followed
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, we can not vote on something we do not understand.
<cprofitt> when the group voted the last time to accept CC-BY-SA Greg-g gave us an explanation
<cprofitt> thanks james_w
<Vantrax> if something is by-sa then all works based on it must be by-sa right?
<bodhizazen> well, since that vote the issue has come up again :)
<Vantrax> its inherited?
<james_w> the difference with assigning ownership to the team would be with the BY clause
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, why will the vote issue come up again?
<cprofitt> This was already voted on...
<cprofitt> james_w, exactly
<bodhizazen> why is assigning ownership to the team a problem ?
<james_w> under that clause if you create a derivative work then you have to say that you derived from *me*, but if it is owned by the group then you say you derived from the *group*
<bodhizazen> cprofitt: the ones who brought up the issue are not here
<bodhizazen> that would be doctormo
<james_w> the other thing is that if I own it then I can choose to give the work to someone else under a different license
<cprofitt> I do not think the issue is with our use of BY-CC-SA
<bodhizazen> and just because somethign is voted on does not mean it can not be revisited or questioned , lol
<james_w> e.g. sell it to a company and allow then to not follow the BY-SA parts
<Vantrax> From my perspective, we request everything be licenced as by-sa but we use materials derived from the desktop training course and license them as by-sa-nc.
<cprofitt> I think the question Martin was asking was concerning how the project would be able to use content that was CC-BY-SA-NC
<james_w> ah
<Vantrax> were not commercial
<james_w> you can't mix CC-BY-SA-NC and CC-BY-SA
<Vantrax> yeah
<james_w> they are incompatible licenses
<cprofitt> so in this case as Vantrax has pointed out the restriction by Canonical on their desktop course
<Vantrax> thats our headache
<bodhizazen> doctormo gave the impression he was intending the site to be commercial
<bodhizazen> the question is what is our intent
<Vantrax> er no... the oposite
<bodhizazen> our intent is not commercial
<Vantrax> he wants it all NC-BY-SA
<cprofitt> we may not be able to use the desktop course ...
<Vantrax> but he also wants it open for people to do 'tutoring' based on it
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I am not aware of him wanting it to be NC
<cprofitt> I think his concern is how to use NC works
<Vantrax> er CC-BY-SA
<bodhizazen> lol
<cprofitt> but as he is not here we should move on... and table this until the next time
<Vantrax> and yes, his consern is how to implement NC
<bodhizazen> +1 cprofitt
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] Theme / Name
<MootBot> New Topic:  Theme / Name
<bodhizazen> I suggest a discussion page ?
<cprofitt> bodhizazen,
<Vantrax> I think its fine as long as it is complete and self contained
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, we can use the mailing list to discuss the license issues
 * bodhizazen looks fo rlink to agenda
<Vantrax> yes
<cprofitt> that will allow Greg-g to give us advice
<Vantrax> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
<cprofitt> you are up bodhizazen with theme and name
<Vantrax> theme is getting there, its blind coded atm so ill need to get it tested and fix lots of bugs
<Vantrax> but it is complete, except for a header image
<Vantrax> as for the name...
<cprofitt> good job Vantrax, bodhizazen do you have a test site and a production site at this time?
<Vantrax> I think that was in regard to the name of the site vs the name of the project?
<bodhizazen> sec cprofitt I have one more comment on license :)
<bodhizazen> discussion on mailing list is fine BUT
<cprofitt> please take the license discussion to the mailing list.
<bodhizazen> and this is a BIG BUT
<Vantrax> so having the name being something like Learn Ubuntu (as it is learn.ubuntu.com) with a tagline as ubuntu community learning etc
<Vantrax> i think that was the naming bit
<bodhizazen> 1. It is a technical discussion and please take the time to explain your postion / concerns
<bodhizazen> 2. There seems to be some confusion about the issue and I am not sure I am understanding what doctomo is raising, his use of language is confusing at times
<Vantrax> bodhizazen: please send a email to start the discussion with an outline of how it should be done, and reminding everyone of the Ubuntu CoC. I figure this will be a 'lively' debate
<pleia2> to the lists.ubuntu.com list, please :)
<bodhizazen> what to lists.ubuntu.com ?
<pleia2> the email
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I am looking for our meeting logs... we had agreed on a name...
<cprofitt> but I do agree we need to rethink that now that we have the domain...
<bodhizazen> OK, back on topic
<cprofitt> I think sliding the name we had agreed on to the tag line is appropriate
<cprofitt> I think that the agreed on name was "The Ubuntu Learning Project"
<cprofitt> or some such...
<bodhizazen> Vantrax was suggesting we use a different name for the moodle site itself
<bodhizazen> so our team is called the UCLP
<bodhizazen> but our moodle site is called ____
<bodhizazen> something else
<cprofitt> yes... Community was in there...
<Vantrax> id like to note that the name of the site, and the name of the project do not have to be identical
 * dthacker nods
<Vantrax> and its a big ass name to put on a header
<cprofitt> I would say Learn Ubuntu - tag line of Ubuntu Community Learning Project works
<cprofitt> the longer name is too long...
<cprofitt> for a 'branding' graphic
<Vantrax> yeah, that was my opinion when trying to work on it:P
<Vantrax> it also works well with the domain name
<cprofitt> [VOTE] Use shorter name: Learn Ubuntu
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Use shorter name: Learn Ubuntu.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bodhizazen> so are we going to call the site Learn Ubuntu ?
<bodhizazen> 0
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dthacker> who is eligible to vote?
<Vantrax> that is the plan
<bodhizazen> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bodhizazen. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cprofitt> anyone
<Vantrax> go ahead dthacker
<pleia2> +1
<cprofitt> we are a community project...
<bodhizazen> dthacker: those issues are on the agenda later , lol
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dthacker> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dthacker. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Vantrax> this is a public meeting not a board meeting:P
<cprofitt> any more votes
<cprofitt> I will use Roberts Rules...
<cprofitt> any more votes
<cprofitt> any more votes
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<cprofitt> [AGREED] Site name: Learn Ubuntu
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Site name: Learn Ubuntu
<cprofitt> [ACTION] Vantrax and Doc to brand site as Learn Ubuntu
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Vantrax and Doc to brand site as Learn Ubuntu
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] Content - How do these various teams contribute ? Each team gets a course ?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Content - How do these various teams contribute ? Each team gets a course ?
<pleia2> so, I don't really know how moodle works
<bodhizazen> I do not think there will be a consensus on this next issue today
<cprofitt> I would assume courses would be created in logical content groups.
<bodhizazen> But I would like to start the discussion
<cprofitt> Teams will have multiple courses most likely
<pleia2> cprofitt: can you explain a bit about "users" and "content groups" and "courses" ?
<Vantrax> im with cprofitt on that
<cprofitt> I can not see limiting them to one course
<Vantrax> cprofitt: mind if i jump in here?
<cprofitt> well -- if you look at the site we have five areas now I think
<cprofitt> sure Vantrax
<dthacker> I'd suggest building block courses that build on each other.
<cprofitt> I have used Moodle and seen it in use
<bodhizazen> cprofitt: I think the question is how to add in a group ?
<bodhizazen> Say the development / MOTU team
<bodhizazen> are they a group ?
<Vantrax> so, we have outlined programs at this stage, and courses that fit into programs based on logical topic groupings
<bodhizazen> how does it work and how should we plan it ?
<cprofitt> this is the company I have worked with -- http://www.professionallearningboard.com/
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, no.
<cprofitt> content is not grouped on what group creates it... but on how the 'student' will see it
<Vantrax> different teams will have access to and maintain individual courses in the programs, with members from each of the groups forming a moderators group over a program
<Vantrax> thats kinda the way I see that working
<dthacker> plus one to Vantrax, but beware the orphan courses
<cprofitt> in the case of development / MOTU there are development courses they may teach and course on using launchpad or subversion or other 'team' tools that they may author and instruct
<Vantrax> from the student side its all one
<Vantrax> dthacker: yes, we will have to deal with those, but very few of them will exist because the programs are very broad
<cprofitt> we may also end up with non-motu developers teaching 'entry' programming courses
<bodhizazen> OK, well some explanation / road map would help those not familiar with how moodle works
<bodhizazen> I see this as a FAQ
<pleia2> bodhizazen: +1
<cprofitt> http://professionallearningboard.com/tsd/course/index.php
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://professionallearningboard.com/tsd/course/index.php
<Vantrax> i think bodhizazen is talking in terms of managing the content, as opposed to teaching
<cprofitt> that is the Professional Learning Boards course catalog
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, that is one of the things I am working on....
<bodhizazen> OK
<bodhizazen> well, that is what I wanted to understand
<cprofitt> due to the nature of facilitated vs. self-study courses you may have two course covering the same material with a different structure and different course
<bodhizazen> when say the wiki team wants to get involved, how do they do that ?
<Vantrax> okies cprofitt and I will work on an FAQ about that
<bodhizazen> we need to provide structure
<Vantrax> +1 bodhizazen
<cprofitt> the other thing is that if you have a course that is instructor lead you may have the 'same' course listed multiple times if we have multiple instructors...
<bodhizazen> OK, thanks
<cprofitt> I will try to work with Vantrax on the FAQ
<bodhizazen> I think not everyone is fluent in how moodle works is all
<bodhizazen> thanks
<Vantrax> no, but were getting there
<cprofitt> I agree bodhizazen
<mogain> sorry I'm very late
<cprofitt> I would like to have people be able to make 'test' courses on a test server and them move them to a production server when they are 'approved'
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] ext steps? What still needs to be done before we can tell teams they can start using Moodle
<MootBot> New Topic:  ext steps? What still needs to be done before we can tell teams they can start using Moodle
<Vantrax> okies, so were up to pleia now?
<bodhizazen> +1 cprofitt
<dthacker> is instructor-led always a "live" course, such as one given in #ubuntu-classroom?
<cprofitt> this ties in with what we just discussed...
<bodhizazen> I can set up a test server
<pleia2> so I've been talking with lots of teams
<Vantrax> dthacker: yes
<bodhizazen> at learn.bodhizazen.net
<pleia2> some want to know when they can get a login and start going :)
<pleia2> presumably the last thing we discussed will need to be sorted out, what else?
<Vantrax> If i can revisit the roadmap
<cprofitt> IMHO we need to provide several example courses - some of the ones I uploaded can serve that function.
<bodhizazen> We need to discuss tema membership and governance as well pleia2
<pleia2> I've just been chugging away with classroom lately, haven't been doing much specific -learning stuff aside from talking with other ubuntu teams
<Vantrax> Were getting the main site themed and the development site up and running
<bodhizazen> who can contribute ?
<cprofitt> then we need to have all prospective 'authors' and instructors take the one course on Moodle I uploaded
<mogain> Vantrax: +1, can't really do much untilt he site is themed right
<cprofitt> then I would want each prospective author (author team - you can have multiple authors)
<cprofitt> submit a course proposal
<Vantrax> anyone who wants to add stuff can take the courses that cprofitt mentioned and get stuck into doing some testing on the sandbox
<cprofitt> and we would want to 'accept' the proposal (how to be determined)
<pleia2> Vantrax: ok, cool
<Vantrax> once the theme is done we are going to make an announcement and get more input into our courses as shown on the wiki
<cprofitt> and then have them build it on the sandbox
<bodhizazen> We should set up a sandbox and a wiki page we can point prospective teacher to , lol
<pleia2> bodhizazen: yes :)
<Vantrax> then we will start building
<cprofitt> have it reviewed on the sandbox and approved for production
<cprofitt> does that make sense?
<bodhizazen> yes
<pleia2> sounds good
<Vantrax> Approval done by who
<bodhizazen> we need to communicate is all
<cprofitt> TDB Vantrax
<Vantrax> by moderators for the program?
<cprofitt> we need to build that team structure
<Vantrax> or by us more centrally?
<cprofitt> I would really like to have some 'educators' here to help us...
<pleia2> I think it's too big of a job for us
<dthacker> some courses will require techical review for accuracy.
<cprofitt> in addition we need to ensure accuracy and relevance
<Vantrax> i was about to say that pleia2
<bodhizazen> I think it shall start centrally, but it needs to grow beyond that
<Vantrax> same as CC did
<cprofitt> How does the forum staff pick the tutorials?
<mogain> Think about decentralisation
<bodhizazen> we do not pick them
<cprofitt> I thought there was one area of the forum in which tutorials were reviewed and accepted...
<bodhizazen> they are submitted and they are reviewed b4 they are approved
<cprofitt> no?
<Vantrax> i figure each program will have a group that takes care of standards for that program made out of the contributing groups
<cprofitt> how are they 'approved' then?
<Vantrax> so some motu, some doc guys, some dev guys etc
<bodhizazen> it is getting more difficult as they are becoming more and more techincal
<cprofitt> I would imagine our process will be similar bodhizazen
<Vantrax> someone really has to run through them and test
<bodhizazen> If so I can help structure that
<cprofitt> although relevance to our efforts will likely be a key too
<cprofitt> I agree bodhizazen
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] We need to develop team governance.
<MootBot> New Topic:  We need to develop team governance.
<cprofitt> and that segues in to this topic
<bodhizazen> Well this fits in with the rest of the discussion
<bodhizazen> We need to stop a minute :)
<cprofitt> I do think we need to build the team structure soon so we can move forward in an organized manner
<bodhizazen> we are growing too fast
<Vantrax> bodhizazen: +1
<Vantrax> well, we are about to
<bodhizazen> we need at least an outline of how someone becomes a member
<Vantrax> were at the tipping poing
<bodhizazen> and how to resolve conflict
<Vantrax> point
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, +1
<bodhizazen> for those not familiar with the BT we have a membership route
<dthacker> the community has many templates for conduct and governance that can be adopted
<bodhizazen> I suggest we adopt something like that with this team
<bodhizazen> dthacker: that is not the problem
<cprofitt> I agree... I think we need to have a meeting of the board after we have a vigorous discussion on the mailing list.
<Vantrax> dthacker: yep, we will be adopting them, its more structural
<bodhizazen> the problem is - who decides who is a member of the team ?
<Vantrax> I guess the board to start with, people have been grandfathered in up to now
<pleia2> so far it's been at the decretion of the board
<mogain> What are the reasons for exluding people from being members, that's the first question./
<bodhizazen> May I suggest we start by using voice on #ubuntu-learning to identify members ?
<pleia2> we approve people who we feel can be valueable contributors, or who have proven themselves to be
<cprofitt> Vantrax, there has been little to no reason for some being accepted and others left on the vine
<cprofitt> we really need that process ironed out...
<bodhizazen> mogain: well, not exclude per se
<dthacker> so it's not possible for someone to just join the team and contribute?
<Vantrax> +1 cprofitt, its been very hap hazzard
<bodhizazen> more make sure they know how to integrate into the team
<bodhizazen> no I think not dthacker
<cprofitt> I do not want people to level accusations of favoritism or indifference
<Vantrax> dthacker: it is, but we want to have the launchpad team showing contributors
<Vantrax> as opposed to anyone who visits
<cprofitt> so we need to discuss the overall process (mailing list) and then vote on it next meeting.
<mogain> I would not want us to be so exlusionary, people have to be given the chance to prove themselves a reputation and they can't do that in this modle.
<Vantrax> so being part of the team is an acknowladgement of effort that has meaning
<bodhizazen> The team is open, but bringing someone on board and getting the team running  is different'
<cprofitt> I agree with bodhizazen we need to have a process for becoming a member, and a guide for new / prospective members as to what is required of a member
<pleia2> there have been exceptions, I am going to use popey as an example since he knows he's awesome and won't be bothered :) he was added to the team because we know his work and feel he could be a valueable contributor, not because of his involvement
<bodhizazen> that is not the point mogain :)
<cprofitt> mogain, Moodle is not the only avenue for contribution.
<bodhizazen> may I outline my concerns for those not involved with the BT ?
<cprofitt> certainly bodhizazen but we may have to move some of the other items to the next meeting
<Vantrax> please do bodhizazen
<Vantrax> just keep it short:P
<bodhizazen> Basically, a team is a group
<bodhizazen> working together
<bodhizazen> so, when people want to join
<dthacker> bodhizazen: please do, beacuse it sound more like a private club
<bodhizazen> we need 2 or 3 things
<bodhizazen> 1. Most team members want a meet and greet
<bodhizazen> ie wiki page, who are they ?
<bodhizazen> not everyone knows who popey is :)
<bodhizazen> 2. We need people to be brought into the tema
<Vantrax> dthacker: we want everyone to be involved, however we also want a way to acknowladge contributors.
<bodhizazen> they need a basic education on how both moodle works and how the team functions
<cprofitt> dthacker, our process would be more like bug-control; people have to provide some samples that they know the process...
<bodhizazen> otherwise they get lost
 * dthacker nods at cproffit
<bodhizazen> 3. We need to make sure someone is not potentially disruptive
<bodhizazen> for example
<cprofitt> we do not want people to be a member and not have the 'skill' or 'commitment'
<bodhizazen> we have young people on the BT
<bodhizazen> they mean well, but they become disruptive and need to be managed
<Vantrax> dthacker: you might want to read up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
<bodhizazen> so I am not proposing we exclude people
 * dthacker bookmarks
<bodhizazen> jsu tthe opposite
<bodhizazen> we play to bring them into the fold
<bodhizazen> in an organized fashon
<bodhizazen> make them feel welcome
<Vantrax> dthacker: its slightly out of date, but we used that to help explain it to CC:P
<bodhizazen>  /end rant :)
<mogain> bodhizazen: It might be worth having some simple layers, members of the learning group and committors who can access the moodle stuff.
<bodhizazen> yea, +1
<dthacker> bodhizazen: mentorship?
<bodhizazen> this project has grown too fast
<Vantrax> definately
<cprofitt> Lets move this to the mailing list as well...
<bodhizazen> dthacker: that is what we do on the BT
<cprofitt> I do think we will likely need a structure similar to bug-control
<Vantrax> dthacker: people to help new people wanting to contribute learn how
<bodhizazen> cprofitt: no I do not think we should move this to the mailing list without some basic decision here tonight :)
<cprofitt> there are also going to be some different roles... course testers would be a valid role though they may not have the technical knowledge
<Vantrax> cprofitt: yep
<cprofitt> a basic decision here tonight... what do you suggest we decide?
<pleia2> perhaps some of the basic roles that people can shoot for to gain membership?
<bodhizazen> I think we need to decide a very basic process
<bodhizazen> +1 pleia2
<bodhizazen> a starting point
<mogain> Or even what membership means
<Vantrax> i think we use the structure in the strategy document as a starting point, then look at what other groups we need, and what the standard is
<bodhizazen> we are going to either grow too fast or loose people if we do nto agree to some basic structure
<Vantrax> or why people want to be members:P
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, can you link to a suggested basic structure?
<bodhizazen> sec ...
<cprofitt> I do not think we have time to hash it all out in IRC
<Vantrax> no, that will go to the mailing list
<bodhizazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team/FocusGroups/Padawan
<bodhizazen> I needs to be adapted
<Vantrax> btw CProfitt I think its fair enough  if you take the lead on the Course Structure
<bodhizazen> to our needs :)
<cprofitt> I think we can agree that we will have a tiered structure... and we need to have a discussion on what that will be...
<Vantrax> i think everything else will get bumpped, but that should be sorted
<Vantrax> bodhizazen: the voice in channel idea is a good one, and I agree with that
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Structure
<bodhizazen> How about if we work on a welcome page
<bodhizazen> for this team
<bodhizazen> to be included :
<pleia2> do we need a real mentoring structure for this?
<bodhizazen> 1. Membership process
<bodhizazen> I think yes pleia2
<bodhizazen> 2. roles ?
<bodhizazen> mentoring can be short
<Vantrax> pleia2 not in terms of technical mentoring, but in getting people involved and active
<bodhizazen> some people "get it" very very fast
 * pleia2 nods
<bodhizazen> others need a little more guidacne
<Vantrax> so they have a person they know they can go to with question
<pleia2> I just don't want to make involvement difficult
 * dthacker suggests letting the forms of contributing gel before putting structure up. He also notes that CoC should handle any immature or disruptive folks.
<bodhizazen> +1 Vantrax
<Vantrax> dthacker: +1
<mogain> +1 dthacker
<bodhizazen> pleia2: well the idea is not to put up barriers , but tear them down
<Vantrax> that is the plan
<pleia2> if someone is a teacher they could be given the infrastructure tour, some basic guidelines, and sent on their way to help out, I think
<pleia2> we can call that "mentoring" I suppose
<Vantrax> we just want to have a basic idea first dthacker because this will grow very fast
<bodhizazen> exactly pleia2
<pleia2> but it seems to me that it's more like how anyone enters any project, by reading the rules and jumping in :)
<bodhizazen> but we should make an effort to get them comfortable ASAP
<cprofitt> I am comfortable voting on agreeing that we need a structure for membership and welcoming new members to the 'team'
<Vantrax> yep
<bodhizazen> and voice ?
<cprofitt> I think we need to work at the structure a bit...
<bodhizazen> vote on voice ?
<Vantrax> yeah vote on that
<bodhizazen> How about starting a wiki page on team structure
<Vantrax> just as an identifier
<pleia2> cprofitt: I think I like "structure for membership and welcoming new members" more than "mentoring"
<bodhizazen> as with everything else it can be a document in progerss
<pleia2> mentoring just seems like a different thing to me
<Vantrax> pleia yeah, naming can be changed
<cprofitt> [VOTE] Should a draft team structure be started; including a membership process and welcome for new members
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should a draft team structure be started; including a membership process and welcome for new members.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> ok, just so we're on the same page :)
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<doctormo> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from doctormo. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<bodhizazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dthacker> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dthacker. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<cprofitt> anymore votes?
<cprofitt> anymore votes?
<cprofitt> are there any last votes?
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<bodhizazen> vote on voice in #ubutnu-learning :)
<dthacker> what is voice?
<cprofitt> [AGREED] Draft structure page to be created - bodhizazen will initiate the page and others will contribute
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Draft structure page to be created - bodhizazen will initiate the page and others will contribute
<bodhizazen> voice can be used for many things
<bodhizazen> usually to moderate a channel
<cprofitt> [ACTION] bodhizazen to create draft structure page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bodhizazen to create draft structure page
<bodhizazen> but we can use voice to identify members, which may be helpful
<Vantrax> dthacker: join #ubuntu-beginners
<cprofitt> [VOTE] Should voice in #ubuntu-learning be used as a 'sign' of membership in the team?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should voice in #ubuntu-learning be used as a 'sign' of membership in the team?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Vantrax> you will see instantly who are memebers
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bodhizazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pleia2> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cprofitt> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<doctormo> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from doctormo. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dthacker> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from dthacker. 2 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cprofitt> to explain I would prefer not to draw distinction until we have the structure more mature
<bodhizazen> I understand
<cprofitt> any more votes
<bodhizazen> but people show up on the channel wanting information
<Vantrax> cprofitt: +1
<cprofitt> any more votes
<bodhizazen> and no one knows who to ask
<cprofitt> any more votes
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 2
<Vantrax> bodhizazen: +1 that is my resoning
<bodhizazen> cprofitt: ?
<cprofitt> Not sure how our process carries that vote...
<dthacker> bodhizazen: I'll tell them what I know and try to refer them to the right person if I don't know.
<bodhizazen> yea, that helps too dthacker
<cprofitt> in most rules that would not pass...
<cprofitt> so I am not going to pass it, but we do not have formal voting rules
<Vantrax> let it drop, board can institute it later
<bodhizazen> As you can tell form a recurring theme, I think it helps to create some structure to all this
<bodhizazen> he he he ...
<Vantrax> lol
<pleia2> I'm not a huge fan of drawing the voice distinction at all (whatever you say, people on irc like having a little thing next to their nick), so will probably abstain from saying yes to it at all, but I see the merit in theory :)
<cprofitt> #endmeeting ubuntu-learning all other topics tabled until next meeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:07.
<bodhizazen> Team governance needs te be worked out :)
<Vantrax> okies people back to #ubuntu-learning please
<doctormo> The vine doth not grow into the air unaided :-P and all the jazz
<pleia2> thanks guys
<bodhizazen> I hve to run :)
<bodhizazen> nex tmeeting ?
<cprofitt> two weeks from now bodhizazen
<cprofitt> I hope...
<pleia2> we might shift the time some though
<cprofitt> that was our original plan - every two weeks...
<pleia2> going to encourage more folks to fill out the doodle poll :)
<cprofitt> yes, we might need to shift time so greg-g can be with us
<pleia2> and other -eu people
<pleia2> well, greg-g is -us
<Vantrax> out of the meeting channel pleasE:P
<mdz> cjwatson: Keybuk: whose turn is it to chair?
<cjwatson> Scott chaired 05-05 and 06-02, I was just looking up when I last chaired
<cjwatson> it's probably my turn
<jamesrfla> Is this the Ubuntu server meeting starting now?
<cjwatson> no, technical board
<cjwatson> mdz: is sabdfl going to be here?
<mdz> cjwatson: I do not expect him
<cjwatson> mdz: technically, Keybuk is not currently on the boar
<cjwatson> d
<mdz> cjwatson: if that's the case, then we have the support of 2/3 of the remaining board to extend his membership until we can hold a vote ;-)
<cjwatson> :-)
<cjwatson> Keybuk: <summon>
<cjwatson> all right, I didn't see any minutes posted from the last meeting, but I have the IRC log here
<cjwatson> 15:56 <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
<cjwatson> err, hmm
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions
<cjwatson> 15:56 <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
<mdz> I spoke to Kiko about this directly after the previous meeting
<mdz> he said that it only affected spec approvals and nominations, but that he would investigate and give me a more authoritative answer
<mdz> checking if I"ve heard back...
<mdz> I got a mail from bdmurray pointing out that he believes it controls:
<mdz> The ability to set package bug guidelines.
<mdz> The ability to set official bug tags.
<cjwatson> what does that mean for our overall goal? the agenda item is "document, restructure, or retire"
<mdz> cjwatson: that means we are still stalled on a lack of information.  I will continue to chase it with kiko (and have just reminded him on IRC)
<cjwatson> we should document what we have so far in a manner more permanent than IRC logs
<mdz> all we have so far are guesses
<mdz> I'll put it into email along with a direct inquiry to the LP team
<cjwatson> [ACTION] mdz to continue investigation of drivers powers with LP team, and document results
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to continue investigation of drivers powers with LP team, and document results
<cjwatson> ?
<mdz> ok
<cjwatson> excuse me a moment while I call Scott; I know he often doesn't pay close attention to IRC while he's working
<Keybuk> hello ;)-
<cjwatson> righto, I thought we might want more for this bit
<cjwatson> 16:00 <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to begin mono discussion on ML
<Keybuk> was elbow deep up D-Bus's bum
<cjwatson> I'm afraid I entirely failed to start this
<cjwatson> that said, ubuntu-devel-discuss has been doing it for me at enormous length
<Keybuk> the content of the ubuntu-devel-discuss discussion was pretty much the reason we talked about having an authorative TB-led debate on the topic
<cjwatson> I think the most recent version of this discussion started after that, but yes
<Hobbsee> oh dear.  Can i get the subject line of it now, so I can /dev/null the next flamewar?
<cjwatson> well, why don't we spend 10/15 minutes on it on IRC, since I think we have some space
<cjwatson> this somewhat ties into the patent policy direction we have been given by sabdfl, indicating that we will act on cease-and-desist notices but not on rumours
<mdz> if it's about the alleged IP claims, I think the recent patent policy discussion provides useful guidance
<mdz> I haven't followed the discussion, and am a little bit confused about why it's timely
<mdz> we've been shipping mono for ages
<cjwatson> it's not timely :-)
<mdz> since 7.04 at the latest
<mdz> is it because the subject has come up in Debian?
<cjwatson> but for whatever reason it's a matter of significant community debate at the moment, and seems to fall within the "issue of the day" stuff we talked about at UDS
<persia_> Some portions of the debate seem to be related to the reasons that specific software is included.  Perhaps the process for inclusion/disclusion of specific applications could be made more clear?
<persia_> (I'm assuming we ship Mono because it's a dependency of stuff we want. rather than from a specific desire to ship Mono)
<mdz> Mono itself isn't very useful apart from being able to run Mono programs :-)
<cjwatson> right, we've generally taken the attitude that we will ship the best available applications (assuming that we can do so within our licensing guidelines
<cjwatson> )
<mdz> the best available free software applications
<cjwatson> => licensing guidelines :-)
<mdz> in the judgement of the relevant development team(s)
<cjwatson> I think I agree that to people outside the Ubuntu development team, the process is a little bit opaque
<Keybuk> this is another area in which the TB was originally intended to take leadership where the actual decisions have been taken lower down
<cjwatson> we don't do this kind of selection very often, and it's often within a relatively small group out of necessity to come to something resembling consensus
<mdz> I wouldn't mind making this delegation of authority explicit
<Keybuk> perhaps having official app sanction on the TB agenda, even if it's just developers making the decisions in this meeting, might help to make the process more transparent?
<mdz> e.g. the desktop team is responsible for deciding on the default desktop applications
<persia_> Keybuk, That sounds very transparent, and something that can be used in discussion.  It is probably worth adding a note that only developers in the relevant area should add such items to the agenda.
<mdz> Keybuk: i'd be worried about creating a bottleneck
<mdz> "we're agreed on making this change, but we have to wait for the next tech board meeting (or get the tech board to sign off or whatever) before we can do it"
<Keybuk> mdz: another option would be an official delegation as you suggest
<cjwatson> there isn't even anything on UbuntuDevelopment about this
<Keybuk> where part of the delegate responsibilities would be to mail selections to the list
<persia_> mdz, Perhaps approval would only be needed within the cycle, rather than prior to the change?
<Keybuk> the list being ubuntu-devel or somesuch
<mdz> I think discussion on ubuntu-devel@ is more useful (and transparent) than a TB meeting anyway
<mdz> desktop -> desktop team, server -> server team, UNR -> mobile team
<cjwatson> the patent policy discussion wasn't written up in minutes anywhere, as far as I can see
<cjwatson> which I think was my fault, since I chaired that meeting
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/04/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/04/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<cjwatson> hmm, no, that didn't have the policy discussion
<mdz> in any case, it needs to get written up
<mdz> do we have any volunteers?
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/03/24/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/03/24/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<cjwatson> mdz: you were chair :)
<mdz> cjwatson: ok, I'll take the action
<cjwatson> [ACTION] mdz to write up patent policy minutes from 2009-03-24 meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to write up patent policy minutes from 2009-03-24 meeting
<cjwatson> one question that comes to mind when considering this is the extricability of the contentious technology
<mdz> mono is highly extricable at the moment
<cjwatson> right now, Mono would be relatively easy for us to extract if we were put in a position where we had to
<cjwatson> aside from the business of it being on physical media
<cjwatson> but it's not like it's implementing, say, gnome-system-tools
<Keybuk> even if it were, it wouldn't be that much of a hardship
<cjwatson> or gnome-panel
<Keybuk> and there's a ski slope issue ;)
<Keybuk> ie. the first time you approve an app, it's highly extricable
<Keybuk> the second time, it still is
<Keybuk> the third time it isn't so much
<Keybuk> and suddenly you don't approve the tenth app because there's nine others
<Keybuk> and the developer is thinking "but there's nine other apps using mono!"
<cjwatson> is this something for which we need to issue guidelines, or is the fact that upstream GNOME folks are pretty conservative about non-C implementations on the whole sufficient protection?
<mdz> the person with the lion's share of liability for any IP claim is sabdfl, and he's been pretty explicit about what sort of risk he will accept
<mdz> I don't think the question of ripping it out came up
<cjwatson> as far as putting Mono in the desktop core goes, I would tend to say that the reasons not to do so are technical not IP; if we're talking about the desktop having a small number of seconds of budget to start, having to start up a language VM is going to put a dent in that even if Mono is blazingly fast once running
<mdz> cjwatson: I don't see a need for guidelines in that area
<cjwatson> and that that is likely to be a natural restriction that the TB doesn't need to set down
<cjwatson> so in that case, can we simply put it out there that the TB does not have a current concern with the IP status of Mono?
<cjwatson> and relate that explicitly to our patent policy
<mdz> cjwatson: yes
<cjwatson> I'll do that as part of the minutes of this meeting, then
<cjwatson> 16:00 <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz and sabdfl to review archive reorg mail sent on 29 April
<mdz> thanks
<LaserJock> cjwatson: wouldn't the ski slope argument though make the VM hit less concerning? i.e. the more apps you get for starting the VM the less of an issue it is?
<cjwatson> sabdfl replied, and mdz said I could go ahead, so I've sent that mail out
<mdz> I've since read it as well, and am happy with it
<cjwatson> LaserJock: I believe the VM has to initialise once per app
<cjwatson> I may be wrong, haven't checked
<mdz> a point of order: we have a bunch more agenda items, and only 30 minutes left
<cjwatson> we do indeed. that's the last of the outstanding actions
<cjwatson> err, much of the stuff on the agenda I believe we dealt with last time
<cjwatson> IRC council, ffmpeg, ubuntu-drivers I believe are all handled
<cjwatson> unless there are any objections I'll remove those
<mdz> right, some stuff was added at the end
<cjwatson> Edubuntu Releases for Karmic and Karmic+1 and hosting on Canonical infrastructure (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
<cjwatson> whoops
<Keybuk> cjwatson: Mono is faster than Python ;)
<Keybuk> just saying
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Releases for Karmic and Karmic+1 and hosting on Canonical infrastructure (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Edubuntu Releases for Karmic and Karmic+1 and hosting on Canonical infrastructure (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
<mdz> there's also a core-dev application from james-w which isn't on there
<cjwatson> LaserJock,highvoltage,stgraber: here?
<LaserJock> I am
<cjwatson> would one of you like to introduce this?
<LaserJock> I guess I can start out
<stgraber> here too
<LaserJock> Edubuntu has been going through a "revitalization" in the last couple months
<LaserJock> with lots of new potential contributors
<LaserJock> and a real rethinking of what Edubuntu is and should be
<LaserJock> one of the big issues that has come up is that the current situation of Edubuntu being an Addon CD to Ubuntu is not really working out
<mdz> LaserJock: how so?
<LaserJock> Edubuntu started out as a single CD, went to a 2 CD set, and then dropped the install CD and left that to Ubunu Alternate
<LaserJock> well, we get lots of complaints from people either not knowing how to install stuff
<LaserJock> or not wanting to have to use 2 installation media
<LaserJock> our main audience has been schools
<LaserJock> and they want easy installation on multiple computers
<cjwatson> there were two major reasons to move to the add-on CD scheme, as I recall
<LaserJock> also an example is ZaReason, which sells computers with pre-installed Edubuntu
<mdz> both of those sound like technical issues which could be worked on
<cjwatson> the first was to try to keep testing requirements under control
<LaserJock> I contacted them about what Edubuntu could do to help them and they said their #1 request would be to have a single installation medium
<cjwatson> the second was that we needed a second CD *anyway*, and the first was all but a duplicate of the normal alternate CD
<LaserJock> right
<cjwatson> (because the number of applications desired was greater than would fit)
<cjwatson> at the time, DVDs were not considered practical, particularly by non-US educators
<LaserJock> we want to put more and more Education material on
<LaserJock> right now we're at ~350MB for the Addon CD
<LaserJock> so we'd be around 1GB total
<ogra> make a usb image :)
<cjwatson> I was just about to say, I wonder if switching to USB would be practical nowadays
<mdz> ogra: let's hold of on solutions until LaserJock has explained what he's here for
<pygi> ogra: you're doing diversions :p
<mdz> s/of/off/
<LaserJock> right
<stgraber> anyway, I guess the main point here was to discuss being able to use universe for edubuntu
<stgraber> and so getting more contributors from MOTU
<LaserJock> so many of the up-and-coming contributors who want to make Edubuntu happen basically said that it would be a waste of their time unless there was a USB/DVD image
<LaserJock> as they feel the issue is big enough to be a big roadblock to Edubuntu adoption
<LaserJock> for me personally, I remember the days of ogra spending long nights testing .isos
<LaserJock> and I don't take the idea of going back to being a full distro lightly
<LaserJock> but it has been a big complaint from users and I think adoption has been significantly hurt by the Addon CD
<LaserJock> so the suggestion is to move to a USB/DVD image
<cjwatson> stgraber: universe appears to be a second agenda item
<stgraber> cjwatson: oh right :)
<LaserJock> a big problem with doing a USB/DVD is hosting space
<mdz> LaserJock: so to come back to  the topic...what is the issue you're bringing to the TB?
<LaserJock> Edubuntu got dropped from releases.ubuntu.com to cdimage.ubuntu.com for Jaunty
<cjwatson> so, whoa a moment
<cjwatson> releases.ubuntu.com vs. cdimage.ubuntu.com has nothing to do with whether an image is "official" or not, or anything like that
<mdz> and they are both Canonical infrastructure
<LaserJock> no, but we lose mirroring
<cjwatson> indeed
<cjwatson> but our mirrors are constrained, and we can't help that
<cjwatson> we have to take the decision purely on popularity
<LaserJock> sure
<mdz> LaserJock: or to look at it another way, the mirrors gain some disk space back
<LaserJock> for me I guess I just wanted some guidance from the TB and to say "hey, this is what we're thinking of doing, does that sound like a good idea"
<cjwatson> there's an ubuntu-mirrors list; perhaps it would be appropriate to ask there and find out if some mirror administrators would be happy to mirror Edubuntu off cdimage
<mdz> this is purely a matter of how we manage finite (and mostly volunteer) resources
<LaserJock> right
<cjwatson> a number of people already mirror cdimage in toto
<LaserJock> we've had some offers for mirroring as well
<LaserJock> so I don't think cdimage vs releases is a big deal
<mdz> LaserJock: my feeling about releases and cdimage is that we should make that decision based on infrastructure considerations
<mdz> i.e. the bits which get downloaded the most should go on releases
<mdz> bits which don't get downloaded as much should go on cdimage
<LaserJock> but the bigger issue is that we'd be introducing a new DVD / USB image
<cjwatson> I don't see a reason to be hung up on the add-on CD implementation if it isn't working, and if there's something else that would solve the original problems too and would work out better
<cjwatson> any new image introduced would, I think, have to supersede previous ones
<LaserJock> another issue we've had is the lack of any type of demonstration CD
<LaserJock> for advocacy to schools people often request some sort of way to demo Edubuntu via a LiveCD
<cjwatson> if we're drifting around Edubuntu topics, can we move on to the second agenda item in the cause of keeping our agenda under control?
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Inclusion of universe within Edubuntu (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Inclusion of universe within Edubuntu (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
<LaserJock> no, that was a motivation for ditching the Addon Cd
<cjwatson> I don't want to cut you short but we have only 17 minutes :)
<mdz> can we close on the mirroring question?
<LaserJock> but I'm happy with what you guys have said
<cjwatson> and two core-dev applications to fit in two
<cjwatson> too
<mdz> to try to enumerate the issues so far:
<mdz> 1. placement of education/edubuntu bits for distribution (releases vs. cdimage) - this should be based on infrastructure concerns, and is not intended as a status consideration
<mdz> 2. format of education/edubuntu distribution media - I'm happy for the edubuntu team and ubuntu-cdimage to work that out between them
<mdz> 3. universe - ?
<mdz> LaserJock: what's the question her?
<mdz> here?
<stgraber> ok, so universe
<cjwatson> let's defer a more in-depth discussion on that to next week, perhaps?
<LaserJock> We've had real issues with trying to expand our Education selections. We have the smallest app selection of any of the main Edu-focused distros
<stgraber> currently edubuntu is main only, we'd like to also include universe packages
<cjwatson> I have a feeling it will take up most of our remaining 14 minutes, and don't want to short-change the applicants
<LaserJock> basically we just want to be able to use Universe to build an .iso as well, similar to Xubuntu et. al
<cjwatson> if I'm pressed for a five-second answer I'd say "yes"
<cjwatson> [VOTE] Edubuntu to be permitted to build with universe
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Edubuntu to be permitted to build with universe.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> (I think it's pretty clear that it can be considered in the same light as Xubuntu et al nowadays)
<mdz> (mumble mumble archive reorg)
<LaserJock> right
<mdz> Keybuk() = -1 (ETIMEDOUT)
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
<LaserJock> thanks for considering our items, I just didn't want Edubuntu to launch into a new direction without getting input from the TB
<stgraber> I guess we'll add another agenda item for the next TB meeting to discuss Canonical support for education apps as AFAIK it's still advertised as supported somewhere on ubuntu.com
<cjwatson> ok, thanks :) please get in touch with ubuntu-cdimage to implement that
<LaserJock> cjwatson: will do
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Core Developer application for StÃ©phane Graber
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer application for StÃ©phane Graber
<LaserJock> \o/
<mdz> stgraber: thanks for the reminder
 * ogra cheers loudly
<mdz> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
<cjwatson> stgraber: can you tell us a bit about the expanding server interests you have (i.e. stuff that's outside the remit of Edubuntu)?
<mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-June/002126.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-June/002126.html
<stgraber> sure, well, LTSP is based on a lot of server components (tftp, dhcp, nbd, ...) for its boot process
<stgraber> I also work at a company doing mass deployments of server infrastructure and as such often encounters bugs or things that could be improved
<stgraber> so I have a lot of interest here for bug fixing, improving integrations of some services and sponsoring fixes from co-workers and the community
<mdz> stgraber: just to clarify scope, since we're in the midst of a transition here...if it were possible for you to work on LTSP and italc packages as a member of an Edubuntu team, rather than as an ubuntu-core-dev, would you have applied for that instead?
<ogra> (beyond that adding new features to ltsp often adds new features to the underlying server packages)
<stgraber> mdz: well, working on LTSP also means having to poke some X drivers, libX11, compiz and patches in gnome and KDE so having upload rights for that still makes sense
<ogra> s/new features/new micro-features/
<stgraber> I'm also trying to have LTSP be considered as outside of Edubuntu and more part of Ubuntu server instead
<stgraber> as it's use in education is only one of many
<cjwatson> stgraber: how have you found your work with the server team, in terms of balancing feature requests from LTSP against needs of more traditional server setups?
<stgraber> so having the archive reorg and having an edubuntu-dev team able to upload the educative packages to main would make sense for edubuntu but for LTSP I'd still have applied to have more rights
<cjwatson> I assume there are some cases where the relationship there isn't straightforward
<mdz> stgraber: it doesn't look like you've uploaded those other packages in the past though; has that been a problem?
<stgraber> so far the patches in gnome are done by ogra but I plan to also work on that myself
<ogra> which i would greatly appreciate
<stgraber> for X11, I recently uploaded (through sponsorship by Bryce) libxcb
<stgraber> relation with the server team works quite well as we won't have too many patches there, the only one I can recall of is in dhcpd, other than that it's mainly getting more involved as being part of their meetings, having the LTSP sessions part of the server track (as it was for last UDS)
<stgraber> and I now have the desktop in the cloud part of my todo list too
<stgraber> that'd be sort-of related to my work on LTSP
<ogra> many of the desktop patches are really old and could use someone to get them on the most up to date feature set of the desktop packages (i.e. there is no polkit integration for example)
<stgraber> as it'd use a regular desktop, use the cloud work from the server team and the loadbalancing and configuration from ltsp-cluster
<mdz> stgraber: is there anyone else here (other than ogra) who has been your sponsor?
<ogra> LaserJock has
<stgraber> ogra: right, and some integration with nautilus would be great too (that's on my agenda), currently we have some weird behavior there
<cjwatson> I think we're going to have to move to a vote shortly
<ogra> right, all my patches were only carried over and mildly adjusted from release to release ... new technology wasnt taken into account
<cjwatson> any final questions for Stephane?
<stgraber> I guess it's mainly ogra, LaserJock, bryce (not here) and mvo (a compiz change I did during UDS)
<mdz> Keybuk: ?
<cjwatson> [VOTE] StÃ©phane Graber for ubuntu-core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  StÃ©phane Graber for ubuntu-core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> stgraber is category:I-thought-he-was-in-core-dev-already for me, so ...
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mdz> cjwatson: no sense waiting for Keybuk, we seem to have lost him
<cjwatson> I guess so :-/
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
<cjwatson> stgraber: congratulations
<mdz> stgraber: thank you and welcome!
<vorian> well done stgraber!
<stgraber> yeah !!!
 * ogra hugs stgraber 
<stgraber> thanks
<ogra> finally
<cjwatson> I would like to have time for James' application as well, but we're out of time :-(
<dholbach> cjwatson: and he's on a plane
<cjwatson> oh! well that would make a difference
<cjwatson> I'll make sure it's top of the agenda next time
<mdz> cjwatson: I don't have any questions for james-w
<persia> I'd also like to remind the TB about Charlie Smotherman's per-package uploader application.
<mdz> we've both worked with him personally enough, I think
<cjwatson> nor do I, but I acknowledge bias since we're on the same team
<mdz> cjwatson: does that mean you won't vote on his application?
<cjwatson> I don't think I'm biased enough to recuse myself, no :)
<mdz> if so, I think we'll need to round someone else up for quorum purposes
<cjwatson> James has been consistently excellent throughout my work with him
<cjwatson> well, in that case
<cjwatson> [VOTE] James Westby for ubuntu-core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  James Westby for ubuntu-core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mdz> he's category:I-thought-he-was-in-core-dev-already for me
<mdz> so +1
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
<vorian> wow, that's great james_w! congrats
<cjwatson> ok, that was quick, I guess doing ALL THE SPONSORED UPLOADS IN THE WORLD makes a difference
<mdz> hehe
 * mathiaz congrats stgraber and james_w !
<mdz> I've updated LP for both
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> no time for AOB, so thanks all
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
<cjwatson> persia: I'll make sure *that's* top of the agenda for next meeting
 * mathiaz calls for server team meeting attendees
<persia> cjwatson, Thanks.  Just wanted to make sure it didn't disappear :)
<cjwatson> oh, we forgot to select a chair for next time
<cjwatson> mdz: your turn next time?
<mdz> cjwatson: ok
<nijaba> o/
<ivoks> o/
<zul> derka derka
<mathiaz> all right - let's get the Server Team meeting started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:07. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> o/
<sommer> yo
<mathiaz> Today's exciting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> Last week minutes:
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090609
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
<MootBot> New Topic:  Merges
<mathiaz> so I've updated the list of easy-merges for the ubuntu-server team
<mathiaz> it's on the Roadmap
<mathiaz> Have people found this list useful?
<ivoks> iirc, amavisd-new is on that list
<mathiaz> ivoks: yes
<ivoks> merge diff for it was reported before uds
<mathiaz> ivoks: bug number?
<ivoks> a sec
<ivoks> bug #379979
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 379979 in amavisd-new "Please merge amavisd-new (1:2.6.3-3) from debian unstable(main)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/379979
 * ivoks hides :)
<dholbach> there's a few server related packages on here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<dholbach> might be worth checking that before doing a merge :-)
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - I've updated the wiki page
<mathiaz> ivoks: to list the bug number
<mathiaz> dholbach: hm - I have to check this list too
<mathiaz> dholbach: is there a way to filter by packages?
<dholbach> mathiaz: I'm afraid, not yet, no
<mathiaz> dholbach: hm ok.
<dholbach> but we need to get the list down to 0 anyway, which would help with scanning it
<mathiaz> dholbach: right - the list isn't too long so I don't think filtering is necessary for now
<dholbach> rock on!
<dholbach> mathiaz: please poke all server people about it :-)
<mathiaz> dholbach: but when any lists gets too long finding filters to narrow it down helps a lot
 * dholbach shuts up now
<ivoks> i'll look at universe packages
<mathiaz> ivoks: awesome. Thansk.
<mathiaz> The list of merges has slightly shrunk from last week
<mathiaz> However there is still a long list of packages waiting to be merged in karmic.
<mathiaz> Merge-O-Matic is there to help out: https://merges.ubuntu.com
<mathiaz> Any questions related to merges?
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Heartbeat 2.99 in Karmic
<MootBot> New Topic:  Heartbeat 2.99 in Karmic
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx isn't around
<ivoks> i'm reading the log...
<mathiaz> ivoks: any insight on the ACTIONS from last week?
<ivoks> yeah... well, heartbeat 2.99 just shares the name with previous versions of heartbeat
<mathiaz> I haven't seen a call for testing for heartbeat related packages in his PPA
<ivoks> they are almost completly different things
<ivoks> heartbeat 2.99 doesn't work as a standalone app
<ivoks> it's being utilized by pacemaker
<ivoks> and ubuntu-ha decided that pacemaker-openais is the way to go
<mathiaz> ivoks: right.
<ivoks> still, -heartbeat version of pacemaker will be provided in universe
<ivoks> without any support
<mathiaz> ivoks: is this the same solution as the one adopted by debian?
<ivoks> since heartbeat is dead project
<ivoks> mathiaz: yes, i contact debian devs daily
<ivoks> and one of them is member of ubuntu-ha
<mathiaz> ivoks: great - how is their testing in experimental going?
<ivoks> some upstream people are also members of ubuntu-ha
<ivoks> they are doing new packages of openais
<ivoks> and corosync and, we are helping with packaging
<ivoks> we've been supplied with debian/ dirs from upstream
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - so the plan is to replace heartbeat with openais+corosync+pacemaker?
<ivoks> mathiaz: no, it's very complicated :)
<ivoks> mathiaz: at the moment corosync and openais aren't API stable
<zul> is ubuntu-ha going to be supporting rhcs as well?
<ivoks> so, redhat cluster suite 3.0rcX depends on corosync and openais with the same timestamp
<mathiaz> ivoks: is there a wiki page to outline the problem and the proposed solution?
<ivoks> zul: plan is to degrade rhcs to universe
<zul> ivoks: excelent
<ivoks> mathiaz: i've sent an email to ubuntu-ha mailing list, but i could do a wiki page with some clearification
<ivoks> but, the point is...
<ivoks> corosync and openais should get 1.0 release in next 2 weeks
<nijaba> ivoks: and upgrade pacemaker and friend to main?
<ivoks> then pacemaker will be ported to those versions
<ivoks> nijaba: yes
<nijaba> ivoks: way cool, thanks
<ivoks> linux cluster stack became joint effort of all distros and vendors
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - does this mean everything should be ready by FeatureFreeze?
<ivoks> mathiaz: it depends on upstream
<mathiaz> ivoks: which is end of august
<ivoks> i would suggest keeping rhcs in main and in good shape untils pacemaker gets compiled with corosync/openais 1.0
<ivoks> then do the switch
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - so if you could write up a short wiki page with the different issues
<ivoks> basicaly, atm ubuntu-ha needs to suport both platforms
<mathiaz> ivoks: so that we know we are and where we're heading at
<ivoks> sure
<mathiaz> ivoks: it doesn't need to be a full blown spec
<ivoks> i know, but spec should clearify this
<ivoks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClusterStack
<mathiaz> ivoks: just a list of packages that should be moved to main, an small overview of the new architecture, and what are the blocker for now
<mathiaz> ivoks: great that's a good start
<mathiaz> anything else related to the Cluster stack and HA?
<ivoks> testing packages are on ubuntu-ha ppa :)
<zul> ivoks: does heartbeat need to be updated in the kernel again?
<ivoks> zul: kernel? no
<ivoks> forget heartbeat
<ivoks> it's dead
<zul> ivoks: okies
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on then
<mathiaz> ivoks: thanks for taking care of the cluster stack in Ubuntu and cooperating with the rest of the distros
<ttx> ivoks: if you forget your heartbeat, you may become dead as well.
<mathiaz> That's all I had from last week meetings
<mathiaz> anything else to add related to last week discussions?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on then
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] kernel modules and userspace tools synchronisation
<MootBot> New Topic:  kernel modules and userspace tools synchronisation
<ivoks> right...
<mathiaz> ivoks: are you talking about drbd and iscsi?
<ivoks> kvm, everything...
<ivoks> providing new version of drbd, for example, is hard
<ivoks> cause we have to upload new kernel
<ivoks> i was thinking about dkms
<ivoks> would it be a problem to utilize dkms as a default way for those kind of things?
<mathiaz> kirkland: what's your take on that?
<ivoks> in case of drbd, it would help a lot since i would have to sync drbd source in kernel and in userspace tools
<zul> ivoks: dkms probably wouldnt be a problem for drbd
<mathiaz> kirkland: I know you've used dkms for kvm to provide a backport to hardy
<mathiaz> ivoks: how hard is it now to get a new version of drbd in the kernel?
<ivoks> we have to upload new kernel
<ivoks> and new userspace at the same time
<ivoks> probably the same as kvm
<mathiaz> ivoks: also IIRC drbd will be included into the mainline kernel soon
<ivoks> well, 'soon' :)
<ivoks> i don't expect it to be there before 10.04
<mathiaz> ivoks: is the issue that the transition needs to be tracked
<ivoks> transition?
<mathiaz> ivoks: or that sometimes the kernel team updates the drbd module and that userspace is broken
<ivoks> that happens too, but only during development
<mathiaz> ivoks: well - by transition I mean that both kernel and userspace have to be in sync
<ivoks> it would like to provide ppa for drbd
<ivoks> where users would get newer versions of drbd
<ivoks> wich otherwise wouldn't get into -updates
<mathiaz> ivoks: that's a good plan - but we also need to take care of the stable release
<mathiaz> ivoks: the primary goal is to get a version of drbd that works in stable releases
<ivoks> of course
<ivoks> but SRU won't be accepted
<mathiaz> ivoks: PPA can be a good options for backports ( kirkland does something similar with kvm)
<ivoks> cause new drbds bring only new functionality
<mathiaz> ivoks: right - so a PPA seems a good option
<ivoks> but, let's look fruther than drbd
<ivoks> that's just an example
<mathiaz> ivoks: right - kvm doesn't really fall in the same category IIRC
<mathiaz> ivoks: as there isn't such a strong dependency between kernel and userspace
<mathiaz> ivoks: the other module that I know of is open-iscsi
<mathiaz> ivoks: apparmor is also similar
<ivoks> well, is apparmor a module or built-in?
<mathiaz> ivoks: it's build-in now
<ivoks> built-in
<mathiaz> ivoks: but there is version dependency on the parser
<mathiaz> ivoks: IIRC you can use an old parser to load profile into a new kernel
<mathiaz> ivoks: this is where things tend to break in open-iscsi and drbd too
<ivoks> well, my concern is drbd
<mathiaz> ivoks: right
<ivoks> i think we could get more out of it
<mathiaz> ivoks: so what's the current process to update drbd in the development release?
<mathiaz> ivoks: send a git pull to the kernel team
<mathiaz> ivoks: 1. send a git pull to the kernel team
<mathiaz> ivoks: 2. wait for the new kernel to be uploaded
<ivoks> as it turns out, they pull it automaticaly
<ivoks> so, i never send them a patch
<ivoks> they just do it
<mathiaz> ivoks: 3. then upload the matching userspace version
<ivoks> and then we keep up with userspace
<ivoks> right
<mathiaz> ivoks: how do you keep up with userspace? manually?
<ivoks> yes
<mathiaz> ivoks: just by change you happen to notice there is a new drbd module?
<mathiaz> ivoks: just by chance you happen to notice there is a new drbd module?
<ivoks> i look from time to time what's in kernel
<ivoks> and atm there's the latest version
<mathiaz> ivoks: that drbd is broken *again* and you upload a new userspace version
<ivoks> i also know when drbd releases new version
<ivoks> mathiaz: that never happened
<ivoks> drbd has slow release cycle
<ivoks> mostly kernel team does the inital pull
<ivoks> and then i send patches for newer version, if any
<ivoks> wait for new kernel, and then rebuild userspace
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - so is there any improvement that could be made for handling drbd in the development release?
<ivoks> dkms :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: or is wait for new kernel, rebuild userspace a good enough process?
<ivoks> dkms would make me happier man; i would have to look only on one file in kernel git
<mathiaz> ivoks: with dkms you'd have control over the kernel module *and* the userspace at the same time
<ivoks> yes
<mathiaz> ivoks: right - I understand the advantage of dkms for backports
<mathiaz> ivoks: I'm trying to figure out whether it would be usefull to handle stable releases as well
<ivoks> well, desktop already does it
<ivoks> for ati/nvidia stuff, iirc
<mathiaz> ivoks: right - so it seems that it could be a good option
<mathiaz> ivoks: the next step would be to talk to the kernel team
<ivoks> kvm-source in jaunty depends on dkms
<ivoks> of course
<mathiaz> ivoks: and ask them what they think about it
<ivoks> i planed to send an email to -server and -kernel
<ivoks> but it was better to discuss it here first
<mathiaz> ivoks: you may also talk to kirkland to see how he built the dkms version of kvm for hardy
<mathiaz> ivoks: great.
<kirkland> mathiaz: sorry, stepped away, back now
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to send an email to -server and -kernel about turning drbd into a dkms based module
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to send an email to -server and -kernel about turning drbd into a dkms based module
<mathiaz> kirkland: that's ok - I think that ivoks would like to talk to you later
<kirkland> mathiaz: ivoks: cool
<mathiaz> kirkland: about dkms and kvm
<mathiaz> let's move on if there is nothing else to this topic (drbd)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<mathiaz> Anything else to add?
<ivoks> anyone interested in hadoop packaging? :)
<ttx> ivoks: :)
<ttx> ivoks: I can tell soren is interested in having it packaged, but that doesn't really help you.
<ivoks> hehehe
<ivoks> i got couple of emails that people are interested... why does everybody looks at me first? :)
<ivoks> bed inglish
<sommer> cause you only have one shoe on? :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: are there some packages already? is there an ITP for it?
<ivoks> http://cloudera.com/hadoop-deb
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cloudera.com/hadoop-deb
<mathiaz> ivoks: so these packages could be a starting point
<ivoks> i haven't looked at them
<ivoks> so i would say 'big maybe'
<mathiaz> ivoks: has someone tried to build them on karmic and pushed them to a PPA
<mathiaz> ivoks: ?
<ivoks> mathiaz: all hadoop packages i've seen were binary files, no source
<ivoks> maybe these aren't...
<mathiaz> ivoks: oh well - that doesn't help at all then
<ttx> mathiaz: and they might be FHS-adverse as well
<ivoks> but i won't judge anyone, until i look at them
<ivoks> ttx: well, looking at the link
<ttx> ivoks: I'll have a look at them, maybe tomorrow
<ivoks> Hadoop wrapper script                  /usr/bin/hadoop
<ivoks>  Hadoop Jar and Library Files           /usr/lib/hadoop
<ivoks> ttx: great
<ivoks> it's a cloud thing, you guys should be interested in that :D
<ttx> :P
<ttx> It's prio 1 on my CrackOfTheDay list
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ttx to look at cloudera hadoop debian packages
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to look at cloudera hadoop debian packages
<ttx> argh :)
<ivoks> ttx: hahaha nailed
<mathiaz> let's move on and wrap up
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same place, same time?
<ivoks> sure
<ttx> wfm
<sommer> :)
<mathiaz> awesome then
<mathiaz> thanks for attending and see you all
<mathiaz> same time, same place, next week
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<ttx> thanks mathiaz !
<sommer> later on all
<ivoks> MootBot is in the ocean...
 * amitk waves
 * bjf waves back
 * manjo waves
 * pgraner waves
 * smb phases in
 * apw zones in
 * cking is here
 * jjohansen waves
 * lieb_ here
<jjohansen> so I guess that already take care of roll call
 * awe waves
 * bjf thinks were ready
<jjohansen> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is jjohansen.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jjohansen> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] Open Items: "smb to request feedback on new SRU policy update from mailing list"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "smb to request feedback on new SRU policy update from mailing list"
<smb> done
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty
<smb> Hardy:    2.6.24-24.54 (11 days in proposed but not enough (0) verifications)
<smb> Intrepid: 2.6.27-14.34 (11 days in proposed but not enough (2) verifications))
<smb> Jaunty:   2.6.28-13.44 (14 / 6 verifications)
<smb>           LRM should get a bit of wl(broadcom) driver testing.
<smb> CVE triaging: in progress (87%). ETA hopefully this week
<smb> So Jaunty gets promoted I hpe
<smb> hope
<smb> thats all
<apw> jjohansen, that covers all of the bugfix kernels
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] Karmic Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Status
<rtg> on track. I'm busily wrecking the i386 flavours
<rtg> I'll need to confer with the platform team about how to upgrade from Jaunty
<jjohansen> [ACTION] rtg onfer with the platform team about how to upgrade from Jaunty
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg onfer with the platform team about how to upgrade from Jaunty
<rtg> I also need to confer with the installer team about choosing the right i386 kernel
<pgraner> I created a Release Status Page to track our progress.... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<jjohansen> [ACTION] rtg confer with the installer team about choosing the right i386 kernel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg confer with the installer team about choosing the right i386 kernel
<rtg> we should be getting close to an 2.6.31-rc1 as well
<smb> That probably goes into the same direction as some upgrade path bug/question we got from old releases
<apw> most of the  configuration changes we recommended have now been applied
<rtg> jjohansen: I think thats about it
<pgraner> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] LPIA Tree
<MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA Tree
<apw> hrm no sconklin1
<sconklin1> lpia hardy has been rebased to the latest hardy
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions
<sconklin1> jaunty will branch today or tomorrow to begin taking changes for netbook lpia stuff
<ogasawara> I added 1 regression-potential and 1 regression-release bug to the list this week but smb and apw are already assigned.
<apw> thanks for the list as always
<ogasawara> The bug day stats from last week as are follows:
<ogasawara> Bug Day Stats - Kernel Devs
<ogasawara> Fix Released 12 (â12)
<ogasawara> Fix Committed 1 (â1)
<ogasawara> Won't Fix  67 (â67)
<ogasawara> Invalid 13 (â13)
<ogasawara> Reassigned 0 (â0)
<ogasawara> In Progress 2 (â2)
<ogasawara> Incomplete 64 (â73)
<ogasawara> Triaged 15 (â4)
<ogasawara> Confirmed 14 (â9)
<ogasawara> New 12 (â9)
<ogasawara> Bug Day Stats - Community
<rtg> sconklin1: is the OEM team suing the official kernel for all projects?
<ogasawara> Fix Released 4 (â4)
<ogasawara> Fix Committed 0 (â0)
<ogasawara> Won't Fix 0 (â0)
<ogasawara> Invalid 38 (â38)
<ogasawara> Reassigned 0 (â0)
<ogasawara> In Progress 0 (â0)
<ogasawara> Incomplete 8 (â42)
<ogasawara> Triaged 0 (â0)
<ogasawara> Confirmed 0 (â0)
<ogasawara> New 0 (â0)
<apw> who gets the kudos for the community contributions?
<sconklin1> rtg: that's a good question. They have committed to using it for all new starts, but as we found last week there are projects still using old trees that we didn't know about
<ogasawara> apw: andres again, as well as our kernel janitor :)
 * apw shakes the janitors hand
<apw> how is the janitors sweep going?
<cking> well done to andres
<apw> ^5 andres
<ogasawara> apw: looking good for the incomplete script I'd written.  still tweaking the script for new bugs
<apw> any feel for how its affecting our 'bottom line' of open bugs
<bjf> jjohansen, we missed ARM status
<jjohansen> bjf: so we did thanks
<maco> the community stats look like the incompletes were converted to invalid massively
<ogasawara> apw: still a little early to tell I think, but hopefully going down
<ogasawara> maco: indeed, the bugs on the community list were primarily old and without feedback for info
<maco> ok. was wondering if they were expiration invalids or it works in 2.6.30 but nobody knows why
<rtg> bjf: you gonna blurt some ARM status?
<bjf> I'm working on forward-porting the babbage 1 changes to karmic, I hope to have them done this week.
<bjf> My plan is to start on babbage 2 patches next week and and them mostly done by the end of next week.
<rtg> bjf: so we have how many babbage 2 boards in our possesion?
<bjf> rtg there are 4 in the company
<bjf> rtg, 1 in the kernel team
<rtg> bjf: any in the community?
<bjf> rtg, no
<pgraner> bjf: daivdm is sending you a replacement pegatron for the one you lost yesterday
<bjf> pgraner, thanks (i think :-)
<cking> what's a pegatron?
<bjf> cking, OEM babbage 2
<pgraner> cking: its like a block-a-tron, just with pegs
<cking> ah
<amitk> we do have several pegatrons (3rd party babbage derivatives) too
 * rtg notes the babbage is a poor reference platform if there are none in the wild.
<pgraner> rtg: agreed, not much we can do about it
<rtg> pgraner: well, I think there are things we can do about it, beginnign with changing our reference ARM platform.
<pgraner> rtg: no can do
<maco> why?
<maco> er, why not, i mean?
<pgraner> rtg: this is all contract if you want to sponsor a community port of another chip have at it
<rtg> hmm
<rtg> jjohansen: moving on...
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] UDS Deliverables
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Deliverables
<apw> the KMS stuff is proceeding, we have kerenls for ATI and updated Intel out for testing with x-swat
<apw> the kernel backports are moving but slower
<rtg> UDS deliverables status is in the aforementioned link: ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<apw> ack
<rtg> the only contentious issue that I see is regarding staging drivers
<jjohansen> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<jjohansen> any drivers in particular?
<rtg> jjohansen: not really.
<jjohansen> anything else then?
<rtg> I just don't see anyone taking ownership yet
<pgraner> rtg: this is where the hwdb would come in handy
<rtg> pgraner: indeed
<pgraner> rtg: we could find hardware thats in staging that has a larger presence
<pgraner> ogasawara: anything we can do quickly ?
<ogasawara> pgraner: I might be able to do that now with the hwdb api
<pgraner> ogasawara: or are we at the mercy of LP APIs
<ogasawara> pgraner: I can at least get stats based off of the driver
<ogasawara> pgraner: in terms of overall user base
<rtg> ogasawara: maybe your queries will run in 24 hours or so :)
<pgraner> ogasawara: cool thanks
<ogasawara> rtg: heh, only if you're lucky :)
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] Open discussion or questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion or questions
<pgraner> [ACTION] ogasawara to look at /staging drivers in hwdb
<jjohansen> thanks
<pgraner> jjohansen: you'll have to do it again since your the meeting chair
<jjohansen> [ACTION] ogasawara to look at /staging drivers in hwdb
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogasawara to look at /staging drivers in hwdb
<rtg> MootBot is a bigot
<pgraner> Who is going to do kernel boot msg clean up?
<pgraner> We still have ugly kernel msgs before usplash
<rtg> is that a work item somewhere?
<pgraner> Foundations is cleaning up Grub & Grub2
<pgraner> rtg: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<pgraner> rtg: under Other Tasks
<jjohansen> [LINK]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<rtg> pgraner: that ain't much help. which spec?
<pgraner> rtg: no need for a spec, its silencing the 2 lines of boot text
<rtg> pgraner: nm, didn't scrioll down
<pgraner> rtg: if anything I can add it to the boot beautification spec for the DX team
<rtg> pgraner: ok, andy or myslef will take care of it
<pgraner> rtg: ack thanks
<jjohansen> [ACTION] pgraner and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
<pgraner> s/pgraner/rtg/g
<rtg> apw: has there been a single grub2 failure?
<apw> there have been a couple, they appear to be related to
<apw> having multiple disks and the boot loader not getting installed
<rtg> apw: LVM related?
<cking> nothing BIOSy
<apw> the ones i saw were simple sda and sdb installs
<apw> there are bugs filed if i recall
<cking> LVM seems to work. I've tried it and so have some others
<rtg> cool
<apw> cking, right nothing boot failed cause of BIOS interactions
<rtg> I just turned on grub-pc as the recommended boot loader
<apw> they were all something in a shell script has failed stylee imo
<cking> (as I can recall)
<jjohansen> anything else?
<jjohansen> [ACTION] rtg and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
<jjohansen> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair Selection
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next Meeting Chair Selection
<smb> I could do
<apw> works for me
<apw> :)
<bjf> i like it when a plan comes together :-)
<jjohansen> [ACTION] smb chair 23-06-09 meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smb chair 23-06-09 meeting
<smb> jjohansen, could you send me the mootbot output?
<apw> sounds like a wrap
<jjohansen> will
<jjohansen> thanks everyone
<jjohansen> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:31.
<lieb> bye
<amitk> thanks
 * harcesz bangs o irish war drums
<juliux> hi
<keffie_jayx> 5 minutes before a loco-council meeting
<keffie_jayx> Ok
<Kami> hello
<Mean-Machine> eveninkz
<ebel> hi
<Shane_Fagan> Evening all
<czajkowski> Aloha
<tdr1121> hello
<talideon> Hello.
<harcesz> hi
<dantalizing> morning
<huayra> god dag
<daxroc> Lo
<keffie_jayx> Hello ubuntu LoCo teams, today we have great quorum for tonight's meeting, popey  will be joining us any minute now
<greyback> greets
<juliux> hi
<JanC> 'lo all
<boredandblogging> hola
<keffie_jayx> for those of you who are new to the LoCo Council, it is constituded by juliux , JanC , boredandblogging, popey  and myself ebel
<keffie_jayx> tab mistake
<czajkowski> ebel?
<ebel> news to me
<keffie_jayx> keffie-jayx
<keffie_jayx> ebel, ;)
<greyback> ebel: congrats :)
<ebel> hehehehe
<keffie_jayx> cool
<Mean-Machine> ebel, you rock1
<keffie_jayx> today we will have two things to discuss and our round of approvals
<Kami> hello, I'm here for as Slovenian loco team representer :)
<Mean-Machine> C'mon Ireland!  \o/
<Shane_Fagan> pom poms out hehe *\o/*
<Spike1506> :o
<ebel> wow ireland!
 * daxroc waves the green white n gold 
<keffie_jayx> we will begin with approvals
<keffie_jayx> so teams be ready
<keffie_jayx> ;)
<Kami> k :)
<czajkowski> okie dokie
 * ebel was born ready
<keffie_jayx> We begin wit Ubuntu-ie
<keffie_jayx> Anyone here for Ubuntu Ireland
<keffie_jayx> ?
<czajkowski> Me
<Shane_Fagan> yep
<ebel> me
<greyback> ding
<harcesz> yep
<tdr1121> me
<Mean-Machine> hello
<keffie_jayx> wow
<talideon> Yep.
<Mean-Machine> o/
<daxroc> <-
<harcesz> FTW!
<juliux> wow
<ebel> go team!
<boredandblogging> :-)
<Mean-Machine> C'mon Ireland!  \o/
<keffie_jayx> great :D
<huayra> Go Ireland :)
<keffie_jayx> pelase past your proposal and give a small intrudction of your team efforts
<Kami> i guess team slovenia needs some backup, judging by ubuntu ireland
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam/IrishTeamApprovalApplication  I'll let Mean-Machine take over
<Mean-Machine> we're a still growing loco
<Mean-Machine> but we're strong
<stronger> strong strong!
 * harcesz estas totally loco
<Mean-Machine> we had plenty of events organized and are still planning next ones
<Mean-Machine> release parties are getting better and better
<czajkowski> we're still learning and improving on events and stuff we do
<Mean-Machine> team communication and interaction is getting better every day
<Mean-Machine> we were represented by czajkowski at the last UDS in Barcelona
<czajkowski> yes it was a lot of fun! and I was then able to come back and tell the folks here about the event
<keffie_jayx> fantastic
<boredandblogging> what is the Drop in Centre exactly?
<czajkowski> and even dring UDS get feedback from the mailing list re bug ams and give that to daniel during UDS, showing the support of the mailing list
<Mean-Machine> more ideas, more enthusiasm
<keffie_jayx> great team effort
<czajkowski> boredandblogging: it was where a few of us couldm meet up and if anyone had issues
<ebel> boredandblogging: it was basically a physical space
<Mean-Machine> boredandblogging, unfortunately it does not exist anymore
<czajkowski> they could come in and ask for help, rather then perhaps try and gain help over irc , it's sometimes easier to explain face to face
<czajkowski> it was aslo a way to meet people
<ebel> ie try to encourage some nonvirtual interaction
<boredandblogging> this space was advertised as a resource?
<Mean-Machine> it was something we wanted to try out
<czajkowski> boredandblogging: yup
<ebel> boredandblogging: yeah
<keffie_jayx> How long has it been since the team started and what have been the mayour challenges?
<boredandblogging> any thoughts on why it didn't work out?
<czajkowski> boredandblogging: but due to rearranging of space in the venue,  and interest dwindling, we deiced to put our resources else where
<ebel> also due to reorganisation in the organisation providing the space, they weren't able to offer it to us anymore
<czajkowski> boredandblogging: saturdays are ppls weekends, and familys and commitments also need to be taken into account
<popey> o/
<Mean-Machine> keffie_jayx, team started a good while ago but is properly functioning for maybe 2 years now
<boredandblogging> was this once a month? weekly?
<JanC> when did the Irish team start actually?
<popey> sorry for being late, train was delayed, just walked in the door
<czajkowski> boredandblogging: weekly on a saturday
<Mean-Machine> popey, thanks for joining
<JanC> (ignore my question ;) )
<ebel> irish team has been around longer than i've been involved
<czajkowski> JanC: sorry as Mean-Machine said it's fucntioning a good while but properly for last 2 years
<Shane_Fagan> Me too
<boredandblogging> the face 2 face meetings, there are pics only from 2 months, but you meet every month, right?
<keffie_jayx> czajkowski, has there been transitioning in LoCo team contacts?
<Mean-Machine> boredandblogging, correct. that's together with Irish linux User Group
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: what do you mean?
<czajkowski> boredandblogging: I dont always have my camera like you do with me
<keffie_jayx> czajkowski,  change in team contact
<ebel> boredandblogging: yeah. those meetups are regular so it doesn't feel special enought to whip out the camera all the time
<ebel> keffie_jayx: Mean-Machine is the point of contact
<Mean-Machine> keffie_jayx, yes there has been. and there were a few issues with website admin logins etc
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: well Mean-Machine has done a fantastic job of being our loco apointee and has brought the Irish LoCo to where we are
<boredandblogging> makes sense :-)
<ebel> and has been for about 2 years ish
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: we have roles within the loco for meetings, events, and write ups to share the experince
<keffie_jayx> great
<Mean-Machine> I wouldn't achieve anything without these guys here though!
<harcesz> yeah Mean-Machine FTW!
<czajkowski> boredandblogging: every once in a while I manage to do so!
<Mean-Machine> now, let me hear it for IRELAND...
<czajkowski> Yay!
<Shane_Fagan> yay!
<JanC> how did the bugjam event go ?  you have people to mentor that?
<Mean-Machine> o/
<ebel> \o/
<harcesz> \o/
<czajkowski> JanC: it went well ebel here gave a talk on the day
<greyback> wooo
<ebel> JanC: bug jam was great imo
<talideon> \o/
<Mean-Machine> JanC, ebel is our bug triaging guy
<boredandblogging> just an fyi, the barcamp videos don't seem to work
<czajkowski> and showed folks not how to log bugs but also about how best to triage them
<slashtom> ebel did a grand job
<czajkowski> in 2 weeks time were having a summer jam,  bugs and translations
<ebel> JanC: i'm a software developer by trade, so i was able to explain what bugs and bug trackers are
<czajkowski> as Shane_Fagan here has taken over nand wants to get more drive in that area  in the Irish language
<ebel> also i've experience teaching it, so it was natural
<slashtom> czajkowski: is that still o n?
<boredandblogging> +1 from me
<czajkowski> slashtom: yup 27th june BBQ my gaff
<harcesz> http://www.archive.org/details/OSSBarCampDublin
<keffie_jayx> well.. It seems to me ubuntu-ie have a great group of people that will provide continuity to Mean-Machine's superb job
<keffie_jayx> let us vote then
<juliux> huge +1 from me
<keffie_jayx> JanC, popey
<Mean-Machine> boredandblogging, thank for letting us know about the videos
<Mean-Machine> harcesz, could you look into this please? ;-]
<popey> +1 also :)
<JanC> ebel: not all software developers know how to triage bugs in Ubuntu or open source projects, but great work for doing the teaching!
<keffie_jayx> JanC, ?
<JanC> +1 from me
<keffie_jayx> and +1 from me too
<keffie_jayx> unanimous
<czajkowski> Go raibh maith agat  (thank you as gaeilge)
<Shane_Fagan> yay  o/
<ebel> yay
<keffie_jayx> contratulations Ubuntu-ie
<tdr1121> good stuff
<czajkowski> w00t
<Mean-Machine> hurray!
<keffie_jayx> you are approved
<ebel> huzzah
<Kami> congrats
<daxroc> :D
<ebel> :D
<Mean-Machine> well done Ireland!
<harcesz> :D
<popey> congrats guys (and more importantly gals)
<czajkowski> grin :)
<Shane_Fagan> Go raibh maith agat
<kklimonda> congrats..
<harcesz> gratulacje :)
<Mean-Machine> brilliant job Irish team
<keffie_jayx> alright
<keffie_jayx> on to the next applicant team
<Mean-Machine> party in #ubuntu-ie
<juliux> hehe
 * harcesz runs for the buze 
<popey> :)
 * popey suspects they know how to party
<keffie_jayx> anyone here from the Slovenian Team?
<czajkowski> popey: we have some experience in it
<Kami> keffie_jayx: yep
<keffie_jayx> great
<keffie_jayx> Would you mind shraing you approval wiki page and a small intro with us?
<Kami> k, our approval page is located here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SlovenianTeam/ApprovalApplication
<Mean-Machine> Good Luck Slovenia!
<Kami> thanks
<Kami> our team is active for quite some time now
<Kami> we started with a forum and a wiki in late 2005
<Kami> we also organized few install parties
<keffie_jayx> I tried to check the links and I even translated some of them so I am going to be asking a few qeustions, hope you don't mind
<Kami> no problem
<Kami> we also started to work on Slovene translation for Opera
<JanC> Kami: there isn't much on your approval page...
<keffie_jayx> the application registers parties for jaunty, any records of previous parties?
<boredandblogging> was 9.04 the first release parties?
<Kami> in the future we plan to organise more events in corporation with slovenian linux users group - LUGOS http://www.lugos.si/
<keffie_jayx> Kami, that is great
<Kami> boredandblogging: we had some before nut dont havy any links atm
<keffie_jayx> Kami,  on information for the release parties you link to this site.. http://www.kas.si/ but I failed to see any ubuntu references in it
<boredandblogging> Kami: you should list all activities even if you don't have links to them
<Kami> boredandblogging:k :)
<keffie_jayx> Kami, the effort of promoting pc's for uganda, what was you participation, (the lionk only suggest a comment in a news article)
<boredandblogging> Kami: are there other activities that the LoCo has done that is not on the page?
<Kami> keffie_jayx: yes the event isn't listed on the web site but it was succesffull
<Kami> keffie_jayx: some of our members contributed some spare hardware
<keffie_jayx> Kami, right. but it is not mentioned in your reference.
<Kami> keffie_jayx: sorry, I guess i should put more info on the approval page
<boredandblogging> Kami: agreed
<keffie_jayx> Kami, it helps us if it has some great elements to prove your participation
<keffie_jayx> Kami, I do line your forums
<keffie_jayx> s/line/like
<keffie_jayx> very neat ;)
<Kami> keffie_jayx: thanks :)
<keffie_jayx> but I do believe I would like to see more documentation on your activities
<Kami> keffie_jayx: forum is quite active and popular here in slovenia
<boredandblogging> I'm with keffie_jayx
<Kami> keffie_jayx: yep will try collect more info about our activities
<keffie_jayx> Kami,  enviable, some teams do not have such a nicely layed our teams
<keffie_jayx> out forums
<keffie_jayx> sorry
<boredandblogging> some more documentation would be preferable
<keffie_jayx> Kami, I think I don't see enough documentation on your efforts
<Kami> keffie_jayx: would be ok with you if i collect more information about our activities and put them up on the wiki this week?
<keffie_jayx> Kami,  would you consider coming back n a months time with more documentations to back your paritcipation i bubntun=
<popey> nice typing keffie_jayx
 * popey unties keffie_jayxs fingers
<boredandblogging> lol
<Kami> keffie_jayx: could do that :)
<keffie_jayx> popey, sorry new keyborad
<popey> I agree, I don't think we should vote, but instead, ask you guys to come back with a more extensive wiki page if that's okay?
<keffie_jayx> Kami, fantastic... we will look forward to seeing your approval page in a months time ;)
<popey> great stuff. look forward to seeing you guys again!
<keffie_jayx> Kami, and keep up the great work
<Kami> keffie_jayx: great, thanks! sorry I didnt put more info on the wiki for the first time
<keffie_jayx> alright
<keffie_jayx> that wraps our round of approvals
<keffie_jayx> on to some topics to be discussed byt the council
<Kami> will also try to find some pictures of the events and meetings :)
<keffie_jayx> Kami,  that always motivates ;)
<JanC> Kami: +1 from me on collecting more information and documenting it  ;)
<keffie_jayx> alright
<Kami> keffie_jayx: hehe, hopefully i'll find picture a with some girls on it :))
<keffie_jayx> Launchpad Team report and open discussion on populating ~locoteams-approved ... by Efrain Valles
<keffie_jayx> well
<keffie_jayx> as a result of discussions to move forward the LoCo Directory (application that will substitute https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList) it has been suggested that we start two teams
<keffie_jayx> in laucnhpad to serve as meta teams for the launchpad integration of the application
<keffie_jayx> two teams were started, ~locoteams and ~locoteams-approved. the first has already been populated to 75 %. but there are some small issues, and most of them is with new teams thata are not standing on two feet just yet
<keffie_jayx> and launchpad suffering from timeouts
<boredandblogging> heh
<keffie_jayx> I wanted to report that it has been a very painful process but we are alomost done with the first team.
<boredandblogging> should we be contacting the LP for the timeouts?
<boredandblogging> LP team
<keffie_jayx> boredandblogging,  if they continue, yest
<keffie_jayx> yes. it is blocking work
<popey> keffie_jayx: are you on the launchpad beta team
<popey> ?
<popey> i.e. do you get directed to edge.launchpad.net or not?
<keffie_jayx> popey, yes.
<popey> have you tried disabling that?
<keffie_jayx> yes, but I do disable redirection
<Shane_Fagan> edge gets more timeouts
<popey> :(
<keffie_jayx> popey, it does have more than 7000 people indirectly linked to the team
<popey> erk
<kklimonda> keffie_jayx: what's the difference between ~locoteams and ~locoteams-approved ? Is there some approval procedure besides the one to become approved team? (I'm asking because it's empty)
<keffie_jayx> kklimonda, it is empty for the moment. but will be populated as well
<keffie_jayx> I have learned that the restricted team works better for that specific team
<keffie_jayx> there are some issues raised by some temas and I would like to share with the council now.
<keffie_jayx> * Some teams mention that they cannot use the naiming convention... ubuntu-(iso-country-code)
<keffie_jayx> becuase some person has registered it
<keffie_jayx> is there anything that can be done?
<huayra> indeed, thats the case keffie_jayx for the Norwegian team and other I've seen in mailists as well
<boredandblogging> we can check if the other team is actually active
<popey> we can ask the other person/team nicely :)
<keffie_jayx> popey, we as in the loco-council?
<popey> I did that, i recently renamed my lp account from ~alanpope to ~popey by contacting the guy who had ~popey and asked him nicely if he'd give it up, he did
<popey> there are implications for renaming things in launchpad, so best to reduce the renaming, and just take over
<boredandblogging> popey: thats because you are such a lovable guy!
<popey> but you have to be mindful that people might actually be using those names
<popey> heh
<keffie_jayx> popey, right
<czajkowski> I did the same for launchpad once the nice guys sorted it out as someone had czajkowski but never used it.
<boredandblogging> this might be a case-by-case scenario
<popey> he said no initially because he'd "been known as popey for over 50 years!" :)
<popey> yes boredandblogging
<popey> approach with caution
<boredandblogging> yeah
<huayra> case by case means a lot of work.. I have used a lot of time contacting the guy just for the Norwegian Team alone and gotten no answer...
<keffie_jayx> popey, i agree with you.. but it is painful to mantain
<huayra> just telling you... ;)
<boredandblogging> we have no way of forcing anyone to give up anything
<keffie_jayx> popey,  finding ubuntu cameroon instead of ubuntu-cm
<keffie_jayx> it is kmer
<boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: do you have any ideas what you want to do?
<keffie_jayx> I guess popey's assessment is right
<popey> its up to the individual teams what they want to do, if they are happy with their name then fine :)
<keffie_jayx> great
<keffie_jayx> that settles that
<keffie_jayx> about locoteams-approved.
<boredandblogging> cool
<keffie_jayx> I currently set it up as restricted and we shall add teams once we have verified their status
<keffie_jayx> but all of them must have to be approved at some point again
<kklimonda> keffie_jayx: what does "verifying" mean exactly?
<keffie_jayx> and we have talked about reaprovals for a while now...
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: and how far back are you going to re approve them ?
<kklimonda> damn, here goes polish loco ;)
<keffie_jayx> who long till we start reaprovals
<keffie_jayx> ?
<keffie_jayx> again... I will add them to the team
<keffie_jayx> but I must indicate an expiration date
<czajkowski> kklimonda: I've nout to do the polish loco
<keffie_jayx> it is easy for us to set it up now than later
<keffie_jayx> as they are more than 100 teams now
<boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: we can start again next month
<boredandblogging> reapprovals I mean
<popey> cool
<keffie_jayx> ok
<kklimonda> czajkowski: "nout"? ;)
<keffie_jayx> my initial idea
<ebel> kklimonda: czajkowski name is misleading :P
<Shane_Fagan> Very true
<kklimonda> ebel: I have no idea what "nout" mean :D
<ebel> kklimonda: nothing
<Shane_Fagan> Exactly
<jpds> kklimonda: nought == zero/nothing.
<keffie_jayx> is to have te theam be reapproved once they hit their approval date
<keffie_jayx> example
<keffie_jayx> ubuntu-ve's approval dates to june 2007
<ebel> kklimonda: it's slang from northern england
<keffie_jayx> we should have them reapprove in 4 months
<kklimonda> czajkowski: well, your surname is indeed misleading but I know already you are in ir ;)
<JanC> keffie_jayx: we need to warn teams beforehand though
<ebel> kklimonda: .ie. .ir is iran :P
<JanC> I mean, they need time to prepare
<keffie_jayx> JanC, exaclty
<kklimonda> ebel: argh.. that's all because of twitter ;)
<keffie_jayx> but we need to get this going
<keffie_jayx> and the team in launchpad could help us do this
<keffie_jayx> Does this make sense?
<kklimonda> keffie_jayx: what are criteria of reapproval?
<boredandblogging> we haven't had much luck so far
<JanC> it makes sense
<keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, I think if we are consistent on the method we could do it
<keffie_jayx> kklimonda, not as strenuous as the approval process
<JanC> just that many teams might get inactive for 1-2 months, so we need to provide enough time to prepare things
<keffie_jayx> JanC, I agree
<huayra> should criteria be the same or higher than for new teams? Approved teams should have a higher standard
<boredandblogging> no, we did it for several consecutive months, unfortunately maybe once approved teams are removed
<keffie_jayx> huayra, I do not think so
<boredandblogging> huayra: that is a separate discussion
<boredandblogging> please add it to the agenda if you want to discuss it
<huayra> ok, will do
<keffie_jayx> huayra, I think if they can offer continuity to their work.. that is great :D
<keffie_jayx> well
<boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: lost track, what is the next step for the db?
<keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, have teams populated and begin testing the app
<keffie_jayx> taking info from launchpad
<keffie_jayx> popey, juliux, JanC  thoughts?
<JanC> that sounds okay
<keffie_jayx> should we discuss this over email and decide next meeting?
<keffie_jayx> it seems like we should discuss this at our own time
<boredandblogging> think the sooner the better
<keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, ok... let's finish this discussion on mailing list.
<popey> +1
<popey> :)
<boredandblogging> ok, forum subdomains...
<keffie_jayx> we will issue an email explaining teams that the naming issue is up to them to nicely ask, and to decide if they wanna go through the name change
<keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, take it away
<boredandblogging> popey brought it up by asking if we have a standard for LoCo forum subdomains
<boredandblogging> Honduras wants a subforum...
<boredandblogging> should it be hn.uf.or or honduras.uf.org
<boredandblogging> the only thing I could find
<boredandblogging> was https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCreatingForum
<boredandblogging> which specifies what US LoCos should do
<popey> isnt it the responsibility of the forum admins to do this?
<boredandblogging> i'm ok with letting the forums folks decide
<boredandblogging> all in favor of letting the forums make the choice?
<keffie_jayx> forum guys know best
<keffie_jayx> they deal with this day in and out
<boredandblogging> JanC?
<keffie_jayx> boredandblogging,  what did they suggest and is the team happy with it?
<keffie_jayx> just out ou curiosity
<boredandblogging> the team requested honduras.uf.org
<boredandblogging> don't think UF cares
<JanC> AFAIK forum policy is that the requestor decides
<keffie_jayx> right
<huayra> aske them nicely and they fix: http://ecuador.ubuntuforums.org/ ;)
<boredandblogging> ok, we let forums decide
<boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: I'm done with this topic
<keffie_jayx> cool then
<keffie_jayx> well gents
<keffie_jayx> meeting ajourned...
<jpds> Not quite!
<jpds> --> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=6501
<keffie_jayx> jpds, ajam
<keffie_jayx> sorry jpds, didn't see it in the agenda
<keffie_jayx>  ;)
<keffie_jayx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda
<boredandblogging> can someone translate?
<jpds> They want a new mailing list (ubuntu-ci), i believe you guys do the approvals now ;)
<keffie_jayx> jpds, ?
<boredandblogging> ivory coast
<keffie_jayx> yep
<keffie_jayx> I see no reason whay to block a mailing list
<boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: +1
<keffie_jayx> popey, JanC and juliux
<juliux> no problems
<juliux> +1
<keffie_jayx> this is the entry point for organizing the team better
<keffie_jayx> long before we start a website
<popey> sorry, wifes birthday tomorrow, trying to do secret things
<juliux> popey: good luck
<keffie_jayx> popey, we are almost done here
<popey> i agree wrt ic
<popey> +1 jpds
<keffie_jayx> jpds,  you have a clear go on it
<keffie_jayx> jpds,  in the future we could help you with it
<keffie_jayx> jpds,  could you please help with planet.ubuntu-ve :(
<keffie_jayx> :D
<popey> jpds: feel free to poke elmo next time you speak to him about my rt account ;)
<jpds> nothing I can do, sorry.
<keffie_jayx> jpds, :D
<keffie_jayx> we are done :D
<keffie_jayx> thanks for all attendants
 * JanC has no problem with ML either
<JanC> why didn't we get a mail about that?
<jpds> JanC: I'm still waiting for boredandblogging to whitelist my @ubuntu.com email for the loco-council mailing list.
<keffie_jayx> jpds, great
<keffie_jayx> tomorrow you will have  the minute for this meeting from me
<JanC> jpds: all mail to loco-council should get in the moderation queue, which I look at once a day on average?
<JanC> and I'm sure other members look at it too
<popey> i do now and then
<popey> but you usually get to it first i suspect, being an hour ahead of me
<popey> ..and i get up late ;)
<keffie_jayx> did I say it
<keffie_jayx> Meeting Ajourned :D
<keffie_jayx> thank you everybody
<JanC> popey: most of the time I do it in the evening (I'm not really an early riser ;) )
<ibuclaw> hey all
<Bodsda> greetings
<MontelEdwards> hey imbrandon
<MontelEdwards> opps
<MontelEdwards> i mean ibuclaw
<MontelEdwards> 3 min to UFBT meeting
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: UBT meeting
<MontelEdwards> Bodsda: no, UFBT
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: trust me, its UBT meeting, check our channel name if you dont believe me
<MontelEdwards> Bodsda: i was thinking UbuntuForums beginners team
<Snova> Not anymore.
<MontelEdwards> oh
<MontelEdwards> i must of missed that
<Rocket2DMn> we're now the Fedora Beginner Team
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: yeah, it was changed... we discussed it on the mailing list
<Bodsda> Rocket2DMn: .....BANG
<Snova> Rocket2DMn: I'll get my hat
<MontelEdwards> that makes us sound like Noobs :[
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-17
<MontelEdwards> Bodsda: i didnt know their was a mailing list.
<MontelEdwards> where is the signup link?
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: yes there is, but lets keep that chatter to #ubuntnu-beginners please
<MontelEdwards> Bodsda: agreed.
<Riddell> ** Kubuntu meeting in #kubuntu-devel
<MontelEdwards> Are we go for the meeting now?
<Rocket2DMn> I think we're waiting for bodhizazen
<MontelEdwards> Rocket2DMn: oh ok
<Rocket2DMn> nhandler, let's get started
<Ash_R> +1 Rocket2DMn
<nhandler> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:10. The chair is nhandler.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nhandler> Ok, time for the Ubuntu Beginners Team meeting
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Add ~ubuntu-beginners-council as administrator for all Ubuntu Beginners Team Launchpad teams
<MootBot> New Topic:  Add ~ubuntu-beginners-council as administrator for all Ubuntu Beginners Team Launchpad teams
<nhandler> Discussion has already taken place on the mailing list about this topic, and it appears that a good portion of the team has no objections to this
<bodhizazen> :)
<jamesrfla> Welcome bodhizazen
<nhandler> Hey bodhizazen, feel free to take over, I'll just send the MootBot commands :)
<bodhizazen> do we have an agenda ?
<Bodsda> o/ I have no objections
<nhandler> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<jamesrfla> bodhizazen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<Bodsda> bodhizazen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings/#General%20Agenda%20Items%20and%20Proposals
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<bodhizazen> got it :)
<bodhizazen> I think it is a good idea nhandler
<nhandler> To summarize the agenda item, by having the council as an admin, they would be able to add/remove members as well as modify various details about the team. They would not take over running the teams, this would be left to the Focus Group Leaders
<Rocket2DMn> Does this apply to the umbrella team as well?
<bodhizazen> I also feel we should consolidate LP wiki pages and mailing lists where at all possible
<nhandler> bodhizazen: All mailing lists aside from the main team one and the council one should have been disabled
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: This would apply to all teams except ~ubuntu-beginners-council
<bodhizazen> IMO it is important to be able to administrate these LP teams if an administrator goes AWOL (which has not happened recently, but is a problem when it occurs).
<Rocket2DMn> do we know if the other mailing lists have been disabled?
<Bodsda> the original ufbt mailing list no longer works
<Rocket2DMn> thats b/c the team name changed
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: Yes. Unless they have been manually recreated, they were all deleted when the teams were renamed
<Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks nhandler
<bodhizazen> sweet
<nhandler> Think we can vote on this issue?
<bodhizazen> I do not feel our mailing list is so active that we really need more then one list at this tiem
<bodhizazen> +1vote :)
<Rocket2DMn> agreed bodhizazen , we discussed that a few months ago
<Bodsda> +1
<nhandler> [VOTE] Add ~ubuntu-beginners-council as administrator for all Ubuntu Beginners Team Launchpad teams.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Add ~ubuntu-beginners-council as administrator for all Ubuntu Beginners Team Launchpad teams..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<bodhizazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<swoody> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Ash_R> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Ash_R. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Bodsda> +1
<jgoguen> bodhizazen: +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Bodsda. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MontelEdwards> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from MontelEdwards. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<Snova> +1
<jgoguen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Snova. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<drs305> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
<bgs100> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bgs100. 11 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 11
<nhandler> Any more votes?
<ibuclaw> +1
<st33med> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ibuclaw. 12 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 12
<MootBot> +1 received from st33med. 13 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 13
<bodhizazen> lol
<MontelEdwards> Think that was it, lol
<nhandler> #endvote
<st33med> I just came in lol
<st33med> I didn't know what I voted on so... I SCREWED THE VOTES, RECOUNT!
<st33med> XD
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 13 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 13
<Vantrax> lol
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to contact LP team owners to get necessary permission changes made
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to contact LP team owners to get necessary permission changes made
<bodhizazen> thank you nhandler
<nhandler> [AGREED] Add ~ubuntu-beginners-council as administrator for all Ubuntu Beginners Team Launchpad teams.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Add ~ubuntu-beginners-council as administrator for all Ubuntu Beginners Team Launchpad teams.
 * cprofitt apologizes for being late
<nhandler> [TOPIC]  	  Add a logo to the beginners team social group
<MootBot> New Topic:   	  Add a logo to the beginners team social group
<Vantrax> we have a social group?
<Ash_R> On ubuntu forums the social group Beginner Team Members  [ http://ubuntuforums.org/group.php?groupid=79 ] lacks a logo.  It has the default question mark.   Should it not be changed to something else,  such as the logo used on launchpad ( https://launchpadlibrarian.net/15997130/branding.png ) ?   Another idea,  could be to do a similar logo to that of the unanswered posts team ( http://ubuntuforums.org/image.php?groupid=52&dateline=1229
<Ash_R> 849008 ) .  If any action is to be taken I think only bodhi can change the logo as he created the social group.
<Ash_R> any thoughts?
<bodhizazen> I am "OK" with that, but to be honest was consiering disbanding the social group as we all hang on IRC
<MontelEdwards> bodhizazen: all hang?
<MontelEdwards> what do you mean?
<bodhizazen> LOL
<Bodsda> if we keep the social group, which i dont think brings anything to the team, then we should get a logo, but I have no issues with disbanding it
<bodhizazen> hang-out, ie are active on IRC
<nhandler> Are there any reasons to have the social group?
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: we are an IRC orientated team
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, I would not disband
<Bodsda> who work heavily on the forums
<nhandler> cprofitt: Why not?
<cprofitt> it still serves as an ad that we exist
<bodhizazen> When we started the team, social groups were the rage
<nhandler> Don't we have a moderated user group on the forums already?
<Ash_R> nhandler,  wasn't it a place to introduce ourselves not only to the team but also to the forum based community
<bodhizazen> now we have irc and mailing lists and what noe
<bodhizazen> *not*
<MontelEdwards> woah woah woah, do you mean take away the team IRC?
<Ash_R> some may bot be on irc
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: no
<Ash_R> *not
<cprofitt> I do not see a reason to have more than one social group, but keeping one would still serve a purpose
<cprofitt> and does no harm
<MontelEdwards> Bodsda: then what?
<bodhizazen> Well, the problem was ...
<nhandler> Ash_R: If they have any intention of joining the team, they will need to get on IRC
<bodhizazen> we got a ton of join requests from non-members
<bodhizazen> so ...
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: the forums have social groups, just a little team page thingy.. we have one but hardly use it
<bodhizazen> we made 2 social groups
<bodhizazen> one moderated, members only
<bodhizazen> the other unmoderated
<bodhizazen> over time it seems the social groups have been used less and less
<bodhizazen> if we keep it, I am OK with adding an icon
<MontelEdwards> Oh forget that then
<cprofitt> if it was causing some damage I could see getting rid of it...
<cprofitt> but it really does no harm...
<Bodsda> it does no harm keeping it
<nhandler> Should we vote on this?
<swoody> I'm in favor of keeping, and adding an icon
<cprofitt> and people looking at members profiles will see it and see that a group exists
<Ash_R> its a subtle minor change :)
<nhandler> [VOTE] Delete the UBT Social Group on the Forums?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Delete the UBT Social Group on the Forums?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jamesrfla> +1 nhandler
<MootBot> +1 received from jamesrfla. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<jamesrfla> oh
<cprofitt> -1
<Bodsda> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<MootBot> -1 received from Bodsda. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<nhandler> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 1 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<Ash_R> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Ash_R. 1 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
<jamesrfla> -1
<drs305> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 2 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<bodhizazen> 0
<swoody> -1
<ibuclaw> 0
<MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 2 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
<bodhizazen> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bodhizazen. 2 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -2
<Rocket2DMn> +0
<jamesrfla> um I want to change mine to -1
<MootBot> Abstention received from Rocket2DMn. 2 for, 4 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -2
<duanedesign> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from duanedesign. 2 for, 5 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -3
<ibuclaw> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ibuclaw. 2 for, 5 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now -3
<bgs100> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bgs100. 2 for, 5 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now -3
<nhandler> jamesrfla: Just vote again
<Joeb454> 0
<Joeb454> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Joeb454. 2 for, 5 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now -3
<jamesrfla> it said I already votted
<Bodsda> jamesrfla: dont worry, its minus anyway
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 5 against. 6 abstained. Total: -3
<MontelEdwards> crap
<MontelEdwards> i forgot to vote
<ibuclaw> MontelEdwards, ideally, only members should vote
<nhandler> [VOTE] Add icon from Launchpad to Social Group
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Add icon from Launchpad to Social Group.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jamesrfla> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jamesrfla. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Joeb454> +1
<ibuclaw> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ibuclaw. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Bodsda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Bodsda. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Ash_R> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Ash_R. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MontelEdwards> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<MootBot> +1 received from MontelEdwards. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
<swoody> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 8
<drs305> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 9 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 9
<bodhizazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 10 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 10
<cprofitt> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from cprofitt. 10 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 10
<duanedesign> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from duanedesign. 10 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 9
<bodhizazen> which icon do we want ?
<nhandler> bodhizazen: The icon on https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-beginners
<Snova> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Snova. 11 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 10
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 11 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 10
<Ash_R> bodhizazen, perhaps we should leave it open for submissions
<Ash_R> or maybe not as it would be good for unity of the logos on the forum and launchpad
<nhandler> [AGREED] Add icon from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-beginners to Social Group
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Add icon from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-beginners to Social Group
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Discuss purpose of the council
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss purpose of the council
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Structure#Jedi%20Council
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Structure#Jedi%20Council
<nhandler> The purpose of the council is briefly discussed above
<nhandler> Sadly, paultag is not present
<nhandler> Based on the discussion on the mailing list, it appears that several members want the council to take a more active role in the running of the team
<Bodsda> note: agenda item added (sorry for last minute addition)
<nhandler> Before doing this, I would like to decide on a clear purpose and guidelines for the council
<duanedesign> what is not being done?
<bodhizazen> icon has been changed ;)
<Bodsda> yay :)
<nhandler> [IDEA] Have council create charter to be approved at next team meeting
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Have council create charter to be approved at next team meeting
<nhandler> This is what the motu-release team did during the Jaunty cycle
<cprofitt> it may take more than one meeting to iron out a charter
<bodhizazen> I think I missed the discussion nhandler =)
<cprofitt> but the idea is sound...
<Rocket2DMn> Just FYI, I won't be here for the next meeting.   I'm leaving Friday for vacation
<cprofitt> I also did not catch this discussion on the mailing list...
<bodhizazen> what is it we want the council to do ?
<Rocket2DMn> I won't be able to participate in such a discussion at this time
<cprofitt> I will have to make sure I am on it...
<bodhizazen> in general
<cprofitt> Rocket2DMn, why?
<ibuclaw> nhandler, afaik, the "Knights" are the proactive role members in general who try to keep the peace
<Rocket2DMn> cprofitt, i can right now (this evening), but ill be gone for a few weeks starting on Friday, and I'm very busy up til then.
<nhandler> ibuclaw: I agree. I expressed my opinion on the issue on the list
<ibuclaw> the "Council" make decisions when things escalate beyond what the "Knights" can handle (ie: temp bannings, etc,etc)
<Rocket2DMn> so i wont be able to help much with putting together a proposal
<cprofitt> k
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: Ok, we will be sure to catch you up when you return
<nhandler> [VOTE] Have council create charter to be approved at next team meeting
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Have council create charter to be approved at next team meeting.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Rocket2DMn> thats fine nhandler
<Rocket2DMn> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Rocket2DMn. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<ibuclaw> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ibuclaw. 0 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<Bodsda> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Bodsda. 0 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
<jamesrfla> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from jamesrfla. 0 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 0
<Ash_R> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Ash_R. 0 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 0
<bodhizazen> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bodhizazen. 0 for, 0 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now 0
<nhandler> I will abstain since I am on the council
<nhandler> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 0 for, 0 against. 7 have abstained. Count is now 0
<bodhizazen> lol
<cprofitt> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from cprofitt. 0 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 0
<duanedesign> +1
<swoody> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from duanedesign. 1 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 2 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Joeb454> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Joeb454. 2 for, 0 against. 9 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Rocket2DMn> Team members need to vote plesae
<cprofitt> I am indifferent to this... but we have been running fairly well w/o such a charter
<bodhizazen> nhandler: or someone please forward the email to me, I can not find the discussion in my inbox
<drs305> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 2 for, 0 against. 10 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Joeb454> I only abstained because I'm currently on the council, and we seem to be doing OK as is
<cprofitt> nhandler, please forward it to me as well
<cprofitt> unless the discussion was all today
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to forward email to entire council
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to forward email to entire council
<bodhizazen> thank you :)
 * cprofitt nods
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 10 abstained. Total: 2
<nhandler> [AGREED] Have council create charter to be approved at next team meeting
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Have council create charter to be approved at next team meeting
<Rocket2DMn> o/
 * bodhizazen would like to suggest there are always things to do if people would like "assignments" , lol
<duanedesign> I think the main proponent of the council taking on a more active role was ptag
<nhandler> [ACTION] Council to schedule meeting to start work on a charter
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Council to schedule meeting to start work on a charter
<Rocket2DMn> Did you want to include paultag directly in creating that charter?
<nhandler> Yes Rocket2DMn ?
<jamesrfla> bodhizazen: is there a wiki on that?
<cprofitt> woah...
<cprofitt> that was 10 abstentions... I do not think the measure passed
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: I have no objections to including him
<bodhizazen> no jamesrfla  , we had a discussion  on a task list at one point ...
<MontelEdwards> cprofitt: is right
<nhandler> cprofitt: A vote of +0 is non-blocking on the issue
<cprofitt> nhandler, ?
<cprofitt> We had less than 50% of the members vote yes
<nhandler> cprofitt: Only a vote of -1 is considered "blocking" on an issue. +0 does not block.
<swoody> cprofitt:  but nobody voted to stop it :)
<cprofitt> if we are going to have a +1 and 20 +0s = a yes vote I will stop voting +0
<duanedesign> even if a charted is a reiteration of already established procedure, at least it was addressed
<MontelEdwards> MootBot: should take off +0 because its pointless
<cprofitt> do we have rules for votes...
<bodhizazen> abstentions do not prevent a measure from passing, you need to -1
<Rocket2DMn> duanedesign makes a good point
<cprofitt> please change my vote to a -1 then
<Rocket2DMn> we can just reiterate what we already do
<Rocket2DMn> (and dont do)
<nhandler> cprofitt: No, we have not created clear guidelines for the votes
<Hellow> What if the entire team votes +0?
<cprofitt> as the voting does not follow any rules I am familiar with
<Hellow> er, 0
<MontelEdwards> Good question habtool
<MontelEdwards> ah
<MontelEdwards> Hellow:
<nhandler> cprofitt: We have been using the standard voting procedure used by most other teams in the community
<bodhizazen> we have, however, discussed votes before
<bodhizazen> In general ....
<bodhizazen> to block an action you need to -1
<cprofitt> nhandler, I did not know we had a procedure to handle such a large contingent of +0 votes
<bodhizazen> In general if the majority of the team abstains we put the item on the next meetings agenda
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, +1
<cprofitt> that is what I thought
<Joeb454> I'd say put it on the next agenda
<nhandler> However, in this case, we are just having the council propose a charter (which won't take affect until approved at the next meeting)
<Joeb454> paultag isn't here either
<Ash_R> me too
<cprofitt> and with only 2 votes for and 10 abstentions I would not count it as passed
<Joeb454> though nhandler does have a point...
<bodhizazen> we have no "rules" for how many voting members need to be present to hold a vote or what % an action needs to pass
<MontelEdwards> bodhizazen nhandler cprofitt can we just re vote?
<bodhizazen> has been "simple majority"
<MontelEdwards> Now that we know the rulew
<bodhizazen> yes :)
<Hellow> I would have to say that 10 abstentions and 2 +1s would not pass
<zu22> hi guys
<st33med> 2/3s?
<Joeb454> MontelEdwards: you're not on the team, technically you shouldn't be voting :
<Hellow> at least, if it was under my control :)
<bodhizazen> well Hellow 2 +1 and 10 0 technically =
<nhandler> [IDEA] Discuss voting guidelines on mailing list and vote on it at next meeting
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Discuss voting guidelines on mailing list and vote on it at next meeting
<bodhizazen> 2 + votes
<st33med> 2/3s of the votes have to be +1
<zu22> 0
<bodhizazen> as abstensions are deciding not to vote
<Joeb454> +1
<bodhizazen> IMHO
<Rocket2DMn> lol, vote on voting guidelines
<MontelEdwards> Joeb454 true, but im more active than you so i dont see the point of me not voteing
<MontelEdwards> no offense
<Hellow> MontelEdwards: That's debatable, but lets discuss it in a different channel
<Hellow> Also, only team members can vote
<Hellow> eod :P
<jamesrfla> zu22: do a + then your number
<bodhizazen> MontelEdwards: you are too new to see the point
<zu22> +1
<bodhizazen> ask the young members team :)
<jamesrfla> +1
<zu22> i vote for Ubuntu Beginners Team
<zu22> :)
<MontelEdwards> bodhizazen: i have been here for 3 months
<jamesrfla> bodhizazen: young members team?
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: please, discuss in #ubuntu-beginners
<bodhizazen> Well some of us have been here for longer
 * Hellow has been here for... over a year, I think
<bodhizazen> so please ask in a more appropriate venue, lol
 * jamesrfla about the same a Hellow probably less
<nhandler> So do we just want to discuss the voting on the mailing list for now?
<MontelEdwards> no, its been more than 3 months its 5
<Hellow> Also, lol voting on voting
<Ash_R> jamesrfla, we have a focus group :)
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: enough, please
<Hellow> MontelEdwards: Only team members can vote. EOD.
<zu22> Bodsda +1
<Hellow> yes, +1 Bodsda
<MontelEdwards> Hellow: eod?
<Bodsda> end of discussion
<Hellow> MontelEdwards: End Of Discussion
<nhandler> [VOTE] Discuss voting guidelines on mailing list and vote on it at next meeting
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Discuss voting guidelines on mailing list and vote on it at next meeting.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Bodsda> can we get back ontopic please
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Bodsda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Bodsda. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<zu22> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from zu22. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<jgoguen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<swoody> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Hellow> +0
<jamesrfla> +1
<MootBot> Abstention received from Hellow. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MootBot> +1 received from jamesrfla. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<duanedesign> +1
<bodhizazen> +0
<MootBot> +1 received from duanedesign. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
<MootBot> Abstention received from bodhizazen. 7 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7
<Rocket2DMn> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Rocket2DMn. 7 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 7
<MontelEdwards> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from MontelEdwards. 7 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 7
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 8 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 8
<Joeb454> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 9 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 9
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 9
<Ash_R> +0
<nhandler> [AGREED] Discuss voting guidelines on mailing list and vote on it at next meeting
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Discuss voting guidelines on mailing list and vote on it at next meeting
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Team Renaming
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team Renaming
<nhandler> For those who have not noticed, the team has been renamed
<bodhizazen> :)
<bodhizazen> dead horse :)
<cprofitt> [LINK] http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
<Rocket2DMn> what?! really!?
<Hellow> Was about to ask if we had already done thing :P
<nhandler> We went from the Ubuntu Forums Beginners Team (UFBT) to the Ubuntu Beginners Team (UBT)
<Hellow> this*
<ibuclaw> Rocket2DMn, I'm just as shocked as you
<duanedesign> \o/
<nhandler> This means that all Launchpad teams were also renamed
<bodhizazen> and the channel :)
<nhandler> So our main team is now https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-beginners
<nhandler> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-beginners
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-beginners
<zu22> kewl
<nhandler> The Focus Group teams went from ~ubuntuforums-beginners-foo to ~ubuntu-beginners-foo
<nhandler> During this transition, the mailing lists and their archives were deleted
<bodhizazen> Rocket2DMn: It was a request from the CC really
<nhandler> However, the mailing list for the main team and for the council are now back up (but with new addresses)
<Hellow> Not really a request, more of a suggestion :P
<zu22> nhandler: lol why delete the archives? isn't that useful to have?
<nhandler> zu22: It made it a LOT easier on the LP admins. And many team members have copies if needed
<Rocket2DMn> bodhizazen, i know, i was playing dumb :)
<zu22> nhandler: ah
<nhandler> The IRC channel also moved to #ubuntu-beginners
<bodhizazen> Ah, you got me Rocket2DMn
<nhandler> Now, we are working on ensuring that all wiki pages have the correct information
<bodhizazen> lol
<swoody> o/
<nhandler> Go ahead swoody
 * bodhizazen suggests a team task / to-do list
<jamesrfla> +1 Bod
<nhandler> bodhizazen: Generating the to-do list for the transition would probably be harder than the transition itself ;)
<jamesrfla> +1 bodhizazen
<cprofitt> bodhizazen, the headers are all that likely need to be changed...
<cprofitt> so it should be simple to ensure that...
<Hellow> bodhizazen: Although I admit that would be nice, isnt that covered, at least in part, by the various agendas that we have?
<duanedesign> will #ubuntuforums-beginners eventually stop forwarding to #ubuntu-beginners?
<cprofitt> I will check the EDU team header after the meeting
<bodhizazen> no duanedesign
<nhandler> cprofitt: I think I got the headers fixed. But many pages include the mailing list URL or links to the LP page or IRC channel
<cprofitt> k
<cprofitt> I will check the EDU pages tonight
<bodhizazen> nhandler: make the to-do list generic enough to be fast and easy to maintain
<nhandler> [ACTION] cprofitt to check EDU pages
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cprofitt to check EDU pages
<Rocket2DMn> I think FG leads should check their own pages
<nhandler> bodhizazen: If it is too generic, it won't help with anything
 * MontelEdwards wouldnt mind scanning all the pages, he has nothing better to do.
<zu22> swoody: wb
<nhandler> [IDEA] Each FG Lead takes care of their own wiki pages
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Each FG Lead takes care of their own wiki pages
<duanedesign> what happened toour launchpad job thig?
<zu22> nhandler +1
<duanedesign> s/thig/thing
<bodhizazen> probably should discuss a team to-do list of some kind
<swoody> ty zu22
<zu22> [IDEA] Everyone add the new address to their .signature file
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Everyone add the new address to their .signature file
<nhandler> bodhizazen: Would you like to create one?
<bodhizazen> I would like to see if the team will use it first
<swoody> So, the renaming hasn't affected any subscriptions, correct? We don't have to re-join all the LP groups we had joined previously?
<bodhizazen> some say yea some say Ni
<nhandler> Correct swoody
<nhandler> [VOTE] Should we have a team todo list?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should we have a team todo list?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Ash_R> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Ash_R. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bodhizazen> +1
<jamesrfla> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jamesrfla. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cprofitt> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from cprofitt. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<swoody> +1
<Hellow> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from Hellow. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<zu22> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from zu22. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<duanedesign> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from duanedesign. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
<Bodsda> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Bodsda. 7 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7
<drs305> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 8 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 8
<Rocket2DMn> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Rocket2DMn. 8 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7
<nhandler> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 8 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 7
<MontelEdwards> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from MontelEdwards. 9 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 8
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 1 against. 3 abstained. Total: 8
<Hellow> MontelEdwards: Why are you voting?
<nhandler> [AGREED] Create a team todo list
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Create a team todo list
<nhandler> bodhizazen: Would you like to create it?
<bodhizazen> the only way we can restrict that Hellow is to use Votebot
<duanedesign> did we decide not to manage jobs through Launchpad?
<bodhizazen> mootbot is open
<zu22> MOntelEdwards: please respect the team guidelines. Onlt members can vote. Thank you.
<Hellow> Also, shouldnt we be more specific on what we do with our team Todo?
<nhandler> duanedesign: That was a project through the -dev FG
<MontelEdwards> bodhizazen: i cannot vote?
<bodhizazen> I will, but should discuss how to use it
<swoody> MontelEdwards:  You are not a member of the BT, so no
<bodhizazen> MontelEdwards: that has already been addressed with you ;)
<Bodsda> MontelEdwards: this is not the place. please, discuss those issues in #ubuntu-beginners
<nhandler> [ACTION] bodhizazen to create todo list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bodhizazen to create todo list
<bodhizazen> MontelEdwards: Mootbot allows you to vote , but team rules do not :(
<jamesrfla> we had a discussion on one of these meetings
<nhandler> bodhizazen: Can we discuss how to use the todo list in the main channel and via the mailing list?
 * Hellow senses the issue of using Mootbot rising
<MontelEdwards> bodhizazen: Sorry, i wont vote any more
<MontelEdwards> I thought Hellow was just saying that, i didnt believe him
<Hellow> MontelEdwards: I never lie, even to those that I want to
<bodhizazen> mailing list or channel, does not matter
<nhandler> [TOPIC] FG meetings please!
<MootBot> New Topic:  FG meetings please!
<bodhizazen> +1
<nhandler> Bodsda: You are up
<Bodsda> cheers
<Bodsda> so, I would like to see FG meetings, they are always TBA atm, lets get some meetings going to make members feel more involved and to help more people
 * bodhizazen reminds team we are at the 1 hour mark :)
<bodhizazen> +1 Bodsda
<jamesrfla> yeah I have another meeting that should be starting soon
<nhandler> bodhizazen: No team is after us, so we are fine.
<Ash_R> bodhizazen,  if me and Joeb454  are still awake i say go for it :D
<Ash_R> carry on!
<cprofitt> I need to talk to bodhi about the EDU team
<bodhizazen> OK, but people hate it when meeting goes over is all
<cprofitt> but I agree on needing meetings
<Hellow> I dont think I have seen a FG meeting in a while
<bodhizazen> I think the Eduteam has grown beyond this team
<cprofitt> did we as a team every hold the FG lead vote?
<Bodsda> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings#Focus%20Group%20Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings#Focus%20Group%20Meetings
<Joeb454> +1 for ending the meeting if we need to :) but I'm still up Ash_R
<nhandler> No cprofitt
<Bodsda> FG leads, please add any meetings to that table
<Rocket2DMn> I'll be having a Wiki FG meeting after I get back from vacation in early July
<cprofitt> we can always move the meeting to #ubuntu-beginners
<ibuclaw> Ash_R, don't forget ibuclaw and Bodsda
<Bodsda> ibuclaw: huh?
<nhandler> cprofitt: No need, nobody is after us
<Ash_R> true,  i didn't see you around ibuclaw + bodsa
<Bodsda> what have i done?
<nhandler> Ok, I don't think there is anything to vote on here
<Bodsda> nope, just a kick up the backside
<nhandler> Bodsda: Do you want to send out an email to the list so we can discuss it more?
<Hellow> [IDEA] More Individual FG Meetings
<MootBot> IDEA received:  More Individual FG Meetings
<MontelEdwards> Im going to eat dinner, bye =D
<bodhizazen> Team members can always discuss to-do and FG on the main channel at any time
<Bodsda> nhandler: sounds like a plan
<bodhizazen> that is what the channel fsi 4
<Bodsda> ty Hellow
<nhandler> [ACTION] Bodsda to send email to mailing list to discuss FG meetings
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Bodsda to send email to mailing list to discuss FG meetings
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Any additional meeting topics?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any additional meeting topics?
<Hellow> lol
<nhandler> Anything else to discuss tonight?
<cprofitt> Status of EDU FG team -- though that may be council based first
<bodhizazen> o/
<nhandler> Go ahead bodhizazen
<cprofitt> and when the elections are going to happen
<bodhizazen> I would like to get a sense of how the team feel behavior in teh channel is going in general
<nhandler> I think the EDU FG issue might be better for the council to discuss first cprofitt
<bodhizazen> problems ?
<Vantrax> edu fg issue?
<duanedesign> good i think
<Hellow> bodhizazen: Sometimes behavior with some of our newer visitors gets out of hand
<bodhizazen> cprofitt: there was a last minute change and the team became disinterested in "elections"
<bodhizazen> lol
<cprofitt> lol
<Hellow> Otherwise, we are good imo.
<cprofitt> so we are back to bodhi dictator... tis ok with me...
<Hellow> also, lol
<bodhizazen> so FG leads are appointed
 * bodhizazen prefers elections
 * nhandler is still looking for a new LP FG lead
<cprofitt> I respect your lead... and you have built us so far bodhizazen
<cprofitt> we should change the wiki then
<nhandler> cprofitt: Do you want to handle that?
<cprofitt> updating the wiki ?
<nhandler> Yes cprofitt
<cprofitt> sure... I can do that with the EDU review tonight
<nhandler> [ACION] cprofitt to modify wiki to reflect that no FG elections will be held.
<nhandler> [ACTION] cprofitt to modify wiki to reflect that no FG elections will be held.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cprofitt to modify wiki to reflect that no FG elections will be held.
<bodhizazen> OK, well if there is a behavior issue bring it to the mailing list please :)
<nhandler> [ACTION] Council to discuss Education FG issue
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Council to discuss Education FG issue
<nhandler> Anything else to discuss?
<Bodsda> o/
<nhandler> Yes Bodsda ?
<bodhizazen> FYI we formed a young new users group to help with immature behavior, regardless of chronologic age, although I bet ie is more common in the chronologic short members
<jamesrfla> yeah I just signed up for that team :)
<ibuclaw> bodhizazen, how is that different from what is already out there?
<drs305> o/
<Bodsda> I'd just like to politely request that biccerring between members should not be done in #ubuntu-beginners  -- i know there is some anamosity between some members so please take it elsewhere
<Ash_R> group page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU
<ibuclaw> ie: ##ubuteens or ##ubuntu-youths
<drs305> +1 Bodsda
<Hellow> Also related is GNUTeens, but heh
<jamesrfla> ibuclaw: they can take my ##ubunteen channel
<nhandler> Bodsda: If 2 members have a problem, it should be brought to the Council's attention
<ibuclaw> sorry if there are any spelling mistakes :)
<bodhizazen> ibuclaw: we have some people on the team interested in helping me with the young members
<bodhizazen> so hopefully more guidance will be provided
 * zu22 gotta go
<Hellow> bodhizazen: I will help, even though I am young myself :P
<bodhizazen> the idea is to do in discreetly
<bodhizazen> *it*
<Bodsda> nhandler: ok, il go there in future, ty
<bodhizazen> and not embarrass people on the main channel
<nhandler> Any more things to discuss?
<bodhizazen> it is a behavior group, not a social club if you catch my drift =)
<bodhizazen> Thanks Hellow
<nhandler> I guess I will handle the minutes for this meeting again.
<bodhizazen> we could probably use a wiki page :)
 * Hellow gets on it
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to handle minutes for meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to handle minutes for meeting
<bodhizazen> nhandler: are the minutes not automagic on this channel ?
<nhandler> [ACTION] Hellow to create wiki page for Young New Users Group
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Hellow to create wiki page for Young New Users Group
<Rocket2DMn> those arent minutes, those are just logs
<Rocket2DMn> we dont really keep minutes
<nhandler> bodhizazen: We have the MootBot minutes, but they are not usually complete
 * Hellow is lost
<bodhizazen> oic, lol
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: The team reporting page has the minutes
<Rocket2DMn> ah yeah nhandler , i forgot about that
<bodhizazen> nhandler: you are doing a ton for the team
<nhandler> :)
<Rocket2DMn> nhandler is a BT monster
<bodhizazen> are you sure you are not taking on too much ?
<jamesrfla> +1 Rocket2DMn
<bodhizazen> I do not want to see youburn out
<Hellow> BT Monster = rawr
<nhandler> bodhizazen: Neither do I. Which is one reason I am intentionally not taking all of the meeting actions ;)
<bgs100> Hellow, lol
<jamesrfla> I can help you out nhandler just tell me what to do if I can
<nhandler> jamesrfla: Sure thing
<nhandler> [VOTE] End the meeting?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  End the meeting?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Hellow> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Hellow. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<jgoguen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<drs305> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<jamesrfla> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jamesrfla. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Vantrax> +1
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<swoody> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<ibuclaw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ibuclaw. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<Bodsda> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Bodsda. 9 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<bodhizazen> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bodhizazen. 9 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 8
<Bodsda> i wanna stay
<Vantrax> lol
<Hellow> lol
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 10 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 9
<Ash_R> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Ash_R. 11 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 10
<duanedesign> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from duanedesign. 11 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 10
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 11 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 10
<nhandler> The next meeting will take place two weeks from now on June 30th at 23:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<Hellow> I have to wonder why we called a vote for that...
<nhandler> #endmeeting
<duanedesign> because we can :)
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:15.
<Joeb454> 19.15? it's 01.15 here
<jamesrfla> Joeb454: I think that is UTC or military time
 * Ash_R wishes is was 19:15
<Ash_R> jamesrfla, the meeting didn't start until 23:00 UTC
<jamesrfla> okay so not UTC time then,...
<Bodsda> jamesrfla: its 01:18 UTC+1 atm
<Vantrax> mootbot is confused..
 * Ash_R should probably get to bed.   i have work in 5 hours 40 minutes
<jamesrfla> +1 Ash_R
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mterry> Hello!
 * robbiew slides into the room at the last minute :)
<liw> yo
<mvo> jo
<evand> hi-ya
 * slangasek waves
<robbiew> okie dokie...let's get this thing rolling
<robbiew> [TOPIC] DMRaid Update
<MootBot> New Topic:  DMRaid Update
<mterry> That's me I guess
<robbiew> mterry: so I gather TheMuso has informed you of the hardware requirements
<robbiew> heh
<mterry> I'm bailing on dmraid.  I don't have access to multiple hard drives after all.  Mostly what I and OEM have is netbooks that can't use more than one.  And apparently dmraid doesn't let me chain thumb drives
<cjwatson> (here)
<robbiew> :/
<robbiew> poor dmraid...no one loves it :*(
<mterry> I don't even own a tower, and OEM doesn't seem to either
<evand> I have a laptop from Dell that has software RAID that I can send your way, but last I checked the card wasn't supported by dmraid.  Let me double check
<liw> mterry, do you have the hw requirements handy?
<mterry> yes...  hold on
<mterry> From Luke: You will need a motherboard bought in the last few years, which has an Intel ICH SATA chipset, I think this can be anywhere from ICH7 through ICH10. YOu also need at least 2 disks of the same size, that you can allocate to dmraid testing. This will likely require you to initialize them for RAID, test data, whipe them, and then re-init them again, depending on the RAID leve you want to test. Finally, you will have to enable the RAID
<mterry> features in the motherboard's BIOS.
<liw> I have ICH9 (he says, feeling clouds of doom gather overhead)
<mterry> liw: You have disks too?
<liw> the machine has four hard disks, yes
<mterry> heh, ok
<robbiew> :D
 * mterry lives in a world of disposable crappy laptops.  Hasn't seen 4 disks together since the 90s
<robbiew> liw: can you connect with TheMuso sometime this week?
<liw> see, I was right about the clouds...
<liw> robbiew, sure; I can wipe the desktop and try to get dmraid working
<robbiew> heh
<mterry> liw: Sorry man
<robbiew> [ACTION] liw to enter the storm of dmraid and talk to TheMuso
<MootBot> ACTION received:  liw to enter the storm of dmraid and talk to TheMuso
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Karmic Roadmap & Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Roadmap & Status
<robbiew> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
 * robbiew created the uber-doober of wiki pages
<robbiew> I think I've gotten every possible blueprint that *may* go into Karmic listed
<cjwatson> yow
 * liw thinks blueprint.lp should do that...
<robbiew> liw: +1000
<robbiew> I still need to defer a few more, as 40+ is too many
<cjwatson> you *can* do milestone targeting in LP
<cjwatson> it's more an aggregation problem ...
 * robbiew will continue reviews and deferrals this week
<cjwatson> so who hasn't finished drafting yet?
<slangasek> o/
<cjwatson> I have 1.5 to go
<evand> robbiew: tis missing https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-usb-creator-for-windows
<cjwatson> (sorry ...)
<evand> I have oneish to go
<slangasek> 1
<robbiew> evand: damn...and that's one I told davidm we would do :/
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> adding now
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to add http://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-usb-creator-for-windows to Karmic Roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to add http://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-usb-creator-for-windows to Karmic Roadmap
 * mterry gets cjwatson to draft his specs for him
 * cjwatson adapts a netbook for use as a shuriken
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> I need to assign http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-i586-support
 * robbiew notices Keybuk has been quiet
<robbiew> :P
<Keybuk> robbiew: you didn't ping me ;)
<liw> I have ... three to write, assuming they don't get deferred
 * robbiew could have sworn there were calendar invites for this meeting...as no one reminds him to attend  (heh)
<robbiew> liw: okay
<Keybuk> i586 => waiting on infinity to make us a build, I guess
<cjwatson> I'm told infinity was on it (as in, when I last asked, I was told he'd already been in touch with us), but I don't know current status
<Keybuk> robbiew: the calendar doesn't affect me being quiet though :p
<cjwatson> perhaps somebody who has been in touch with him could file an RT ticket?
<robbiew> Keybuk: touche'
<slangasek> I only had the one ping from him about whether it was a good time to snapshot
<slangasek> what's the RT ticket supposed to say?
<Keybuk> PLATFORM TEAM CAN HAZ 586 BUILZ PLZ
<cjwatson> we need a fresh test build of alpha 2 plus a test build with the toolchain set to 586
<cjwatson> or words to that effect
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> realistically, now, it has to be of the current archive, not alpha 2, but ...
<cjwatson> unless he already took a snapshot
<slangasek> I'm hoping he did that part :)
<Keybuk> whoah
<Keybuk> hang on
<Keybuk> spooling far too far ahead there
<Keybuk> it has to be a snapshot of an archive, with a 586-optimised compiler provided for that snapshot
<Keybuk> if we snapshot now but use last month's compiler, we're in the same crazy test we were before
<cjwatson> right, doesn't Adam already have the necessary patch in hand
<cjwatson> ?
<Keybuk> no, he has a compiler package
<Keybuk> and a snapshot of the archive taken while we were at UDS
<Keybuk> at least, afaik
<robbiew> Keybuk: can I assign the blueprint to you, since you are clearly "in the know" on this one?
<Keybuk> robbiew: I thought it was assigned to me :p
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> it is now
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Feature Milestones
<MootBot> New Topic:  Feature Milestones
<robbiew> I would like everyone to *try* to target their features to milestones this release
<robbiew> and will look for this in any blueprint that I review
<Keybuk> robbiew: can I target milestones for the next release? :)
<robbiew> it's not a "set in stone" thing, but I think having some sort of target to shoot for (besides Beta) can help folks plan a little better
<cjwatson> I haven't been doing that consistently in my reviews yet, I'm afraid
<cjwatson> but I can start
<robbiew> Keybuk: yeah...the boot performance stuff is a special case
<robbiew> cjwatson: no worry
<robbiew> I will be going over them all this week, anyway (yipee)
<robbiew> so I can gently nudge people ;)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: foundations-karmic-kms-console appears to be suddenly assigned to me too, it wasn't on Monday
<Keybuk> I didn't take any notes about that one - and IS don't appear to have published the videos yet
<Keybuk> can you remember what we agreed?  I thought it went something like "leave it all alone"
<cjwatson> was that one videotaped?
<robbiew> I don't think so
<mterry> Keybuk: That one was where you said, let's not run usplash
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I have some memories of it but mostly of testing things to make sure they already worked right
<mterry> Keybuk: I don't remember anything else really coming out of it
<cjwatson> and yes, there was the only-run-usplash-when-necessary thing
<cjwatson> what about X on VT1?
<Keybuk> yeah, I put that decision into boot-performance
<robbiew> do we need to obsolete it?
<cjwatson> oh
<cjwatson> there was something about using a userspace terminal application, wasn't there?
<cjwatson> so that we could do better font display
<Keybuk> that was far in the future ;)
 * cjwatson nods
<liw> let's break one thing at a time...
<mterry> I do remember X on VT1
<Keybuk> "one day, all this will be apartments" kind of thing
<mterry> Have to tell GDM and then have to not run getty on it
<Keybuk> mterry: oh, we could put that in and stuff
<Keybuk> good point
<Keybuk> there seems to be a few notes to put there
<robbiew> heh
<Keybuk> I shall draft
<cjwatson> see the discussion on #whereveritwas yesterday, I listed a bunch of stuff I could think of that assume X not on vt1
<robbiew> oh yeah
<robbiew> #ubuntu-devel?
<liw> X on tty -> will that be conditional on X being installed? (e.g., servers might want getty on tty1 anyway)
<liw> cjwatson, I saw it, so probably #ubuntu-devel
<cjwatson> I think it was #canonical or #distro unfortunately, but there was nothing secret there, it could be copied and pasted into the spec :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: can't see anything on irclogs.ubuntu.com :(
<cjwatson> you commented on the discussion while it was in progress so I rather assumed you'd seen it
<Keybuk> doesn't mean I remember it ;)
<liw> hmm... #distro yesterday at around 18:45?
<robbiew> [ACTION] Keybuk to draft KMS on the Console spec....based on mysterious irc discussion
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Keybuk to draft KMS on the Console spec....based on mysterious irc discussion
<liw> (UTC)
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> yeah, what liw said
<cjwatson> (took me a moment to find my logs)
<liw> Keybuk, if you need, I can e-mail you logs
<Keybuk> liw: please
 * Keybuk checks irclogs.canonical.com
<Keybuk> hah, we don't log #distro
<cjwatson> Keybuk: you said something at one point about it being possible to run getty and X on tty1 simultaneously, with KMS
<cjwatson> Keybuk: is this still believed to be true?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yeah you can
<slangasek> Keybuk: RT 34671 for the snapshot stuff
<Keybuk> cjwatson: of course, getty receives all the raw input events on its standard input
<Keybuk> cjwatson: so it's a less-than-ideal situation
<cjwatson> ah, right, so we really ought to kill getty in that case
<cjwatson> otherwise we have an android kind of situation
<liw> Keybuk, sent
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> though not quite
<cjwatson> sure, you aren't logged in
<cjwatson> unless you get lucky :)
<Keybuk> because the raw input stream for the word "reboot" doesn't look much like "reboot" <g>
<cjwatson> true
<cjwatson> still, best not
<Keybuk> well, indeed
<robbiew> anything else before we move onto the sprint update (or lack thereof)?
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Platform Sprint Update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Platform Sprint Update
<robbiew> so....
<robbiew> still waiting on confirmation of the location
<liw> the sprint invokes ct-uluhu
<robbiew> the current situation is Dublin is the first candidate...pending some bandwidth confirmation
<slangasek> robbiew: I sent in a request to Atlas about booking for DebConf + Dublin yesterday afternoon, and haven't heard anything back yet :P
<robbiew> and Glasgow is the fallback
<mterry> ahem, sorry dropped off for a sec
<slangasek> robbiew: have you heard anything more from them?
<robbiew> slangasek: I heard back just now...so they are probably just waking up :P
 * robbiew forgot to provide the dates for the platform sprint :/
<slangasek> I gave them plenty of time to reply yesterday afternoon :)
<robbiew> so will wait for 2nd response
<robbiew> for those planning on coming home after Debconf, you are clear to arrange travel for it
<robbiew> and just wait on the Platform Sprint location to plan that travel
<slangasek> yes, nothing like spending 3 days straight on a plane :)
<robbiew> we, who cannot do such things, should get prices assuming Dublin....and then see how much it would be to change to Glasgow within the next week or so...if needed
 * liw suspects he's never able to back home again, too much travel
 * robbiew has very little sympathy for liw's travel...heh
<robbiew> anyway...sorry I don't have more info, but rest assured that I will relay it as soon as I get it
<robbiew> [TOPIC] 8.04.3
<MootBot> New Topic:  8.04.3
<robbiew> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04.3
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04.3
<robbiew> slangasek: how are we looking on this?  anything you need from folks on the team?
<cjwatson> is it true to say that any bug for which we haven't uploaded a fix yet is too late for .3?
<cjwatson> (that's code for "should I be deferring 250400 rather than worrying about it")
<robbiew> heh
<slangasek> cjwatson: it's tending to be, but given that the schedule is loose we can make exceptions if we need them
<slangasek> robbiew: overall I think we're ok
 * evand uploaded a new casper earlier today that he'd really like to see in that exceptions list.
<slangasek> evand: noted, thanks
<evand> thank you
<cjwatson> casper's definitely more important than ssl-cert :)
<robbiew> okay...moving on
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<cjwatson> for once, this week, I don't feel guilty at all
<robbiew> last 30 days:
<robbiew> cjwatson, 23 bug comments, 12 sponsored uploads vorlon, 18 bug comments, 6 sponsored uploads james-w, 10 bug comments, 7 sponsored uploads mvo, 7 bug comments, 12 sponsored uploads evand, 1 bug comments, 0 sponsored uploads doko, 0 bug comments, 1 sponsored uploads scott, 0 bug comments, 1 sponsored uploads liw, 0 bug comments, 0 sponsored uploads
 * evand makes up for that guilt with his own.
<slangasek> whooo I beat james_w
<robbiew> courtesy of jono...your lovely community manager :D
 * liw can't sponsor and feels no shame :)
<cjwatson> we're all still hugely behind the desktop team
<cjwatson> or indeed dholbach on his own
<mvo> new gnome makes it somewhat easier to sponsor :)
<robbiew> liw: so how is the MOTU progress? heh
<robbiew> dholbach, 92 bug comments, 62 sponsored uploads
<robbiew> :)
<mvo> but it would be cool to get a similar sponsoring culture as #ubuntu-desktop
<liw> robbiew, my MOTU progress is exactly where it should be right now, given the circumstances
<mvo> dholbach: woah!
<Keybuk> damnit, how did I get a 1 in there?
<slangasek> presumably, "do this thing, then resubscribe u-m-s" doesn't show up in the comment count
 * Keybuk has been trying to keep his score at 0
<robbiew> heh
<liw> are those all bug comments, or just to some subset of all bugs?
<mvo> liw: just in the context of sponsoring bugs
<robbiew> liw: dholbach should be able to give you the details on these numbers
<mvo> (AFAIK)
<cjwatson> comments on bugs to which ubuntu-{main,universe}-sponsors is subscribed
<liw> right, I haven't touched any of those
 * liw makes everyone else look good by being at the bottom
<robbiew> actually....robbie.w is at the bottom
<mterry> liw: Don't steal *all* the credit, I'm not even listed
<mvo> robbiew: how is the motu progress ;) ?
<robbiew> but I left that off...since I have no plans of moving up
<robbiew> mvo: about the same as liw, apparently :P
<mvo> lol
<Keybuk> robbiew: I was just going to say "I can add you to MOTU", then realised I can't!
<cjwatson> we voted to keep you on the board, but sabdfl hasn't flipped the switch back yet ...
<Keybuk> cjwatson: the TB doesn't get to elect its own members though
<cjwatson> the question of expiry is ... unclear
<cjwatson> appointments have always been officially for a year, but you and mdz were never reelected
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/Good News
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/Good News
<Keybuk> at least I remembered to add myself to appropriate teams such as ubuntu-core-dev ;)
<mdz> cjwatson, I can fix that
<mdz> cjwatson, (the expiry)
<cjwatson> please do :)
<cjwatson> fixing the website description (aka constitution) to be a bit less at variance from reality would be nice too, but I think there's a bug about that ...
<mvo> is there a timeline when the vfs based union mounts will land?
 * mvo is eagger to try them with update-manager :)
<liw> does ubuntu participate in LCA?
<robbiew> liw: LCA?
<Keybuk> mvo: just waiting for a patch that works ;)
<cjwatson> as in linux.conf.au?
<robbiew> ah
<liw> yeah, linux.conf.au
<Keybuk> mvo: the current patch set conflicts with autofs in an interesting way
<Keybuk> mvo: (you can't exec anything on a union mount, basically)
<mvo> haha
<mvo> not ideal ;)
<Keybuk> liw: we've always traditionally attended, though it's a long way away so some people prefer not to
<robbiew> liw: I think so...i recall davidm possibly going last year
<mvo> is it realistic that it still lands for karmic even with those problems?
<Keybuk> mvo: honestly, finding a few bugs makes me feel happier about it
<davidm> robbiew, I did indeed go to LCA last year
<cjwatson> Keybuk: YM you've got close enough to be *able* to find bugs?
<Keybuk> I'd be scared if we had a patch and no bugs - because I'd want to know when the big arsed bug was going to bite us
<Keybuk> cjwatson: that too
<robbiew> liw: ^^^^
<mvo> ok
<robbiew> FYI, slangasek, Keybuk, cjwatson, and me are in Millbank for the  BootPerformance Sprint next week: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/BootPerformance/DebianUbuntuSprint
<Keybuk> if I can mount the union, and apt-get dist-upgrade the contained squashfs, I'll be happy ;)
<Keybuk> you mean we're not doing it on The Boat?
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<robbiew> need to end meeting...think QA is next
<liw> thanks
<mvo> thanks
<slangasek> thankee
<al-maisan> thanks!
<heno> hi everyone
<davmor2> hello
<sbeattie> hey
<pedro_> hola hola!
<ara> hello :)
<ogasawara> hi
<eeejay> marhaba
 * fader waves.
<heno> bdmurray is away today but might make an appearance
<schwuk> hi
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> doesn't look like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings has really been updated
<heno> but many items are still relevant :)
<pedro_> indeed
<heno> [TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> past Thursday we celebrated a hug day based on update-manager and update-notifier
<pedro_> we had a really good participation from the bugsquad as you can see per: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090611
 * heno did a quick edit
<pedro_> the heroes of that day are: mr-toph, jgoguen, showard314, Kamus, micahg
<pedro_> thanks a lot folks for helping us ;-)
<heno> rock!
<heno> thanks pedro_
<pedro_> and tomorrow we are celebrating a hug day based on empathy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090618
<davmor2> could be fun
<pedro_> so feel free to join us, triage some bugs, test the new application and file some bugs as well ;-)
<heno> pedro_: should we talk about rb and pidgin bugs?
<pedro_> if we have time, yeah
<heno> it would be valuable to have bdmurray here for that though
<heno> pedro_: you said you were taking it up with the desktop team this/next week?
<pedro_> heno: ok , let me raise that with the desktop folks and we can talk about it on the next meeting
<heno> ok, great
<pedro_> exactly
<heno> [TOPIC] qa.u.c landing page. Any news?
<MootBot> New Topic:  qa.u.c landing page. Any news?
<heno> AFAICS it's no longer blocked on server access
<heno> schwuk: ?
 * ara is looking forward to seeing a beautiful landing page 
<schwuk> heno: Last I heard it was waiting on IS to finsihed the migration, but no action. I've poked the last IS'er to touch it.
<schwuk> And he's just come back with "it's very high on my list, in fact it's top"
<pedro_> where was the mock up of the landing page?
 * pedro_ can't find it
<heno> schwuk: ok. let me know if it's still pending on them Friday
<schwuk> heno: yes
 * cr3 heno I'm surprised the IS team has time to go around servers and purge packages, such as my latex requirements, and not finish the landing page already <grumble> :)
<ara> pedro_: http://people.ubuntu.com/~schwuk/homepage/
<pedro_> ara: gracias
<heno> [TOPIC] SRU Verifications -- sbeattie
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU Verifications -- sbeattie
<sbeattie> Two bits:
<sbeattie> First up, thanks to Fumihito YOSHIDA and the Japanese LoCo team, Imtiaz Rahi Russ Miranda, and Arnaud Quette for helping out toverify fixes this week.
<ara> schwuk: before it is too late... there is already a broken link
<schwuk> ara: well stop renaming projects!
<ara> schwuk: what was the new name for hwtest that I just forgot?
<ara> schwuk: :P
<sbeattie> and second, the next testing day will focus on SRU verifications for the upcoming 8.04.3 point release: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/20090622
<schwuk> ara: touche!
<sbeattie> (that page is still in progress)
<pedro_> there's quite a lot of hw specific bugs to verify there, eek
<sbeattie> Yeah, it'd be great if people could look that over to see if they have that hardware.
<pedro_> sbeattie: what do you think about doing a blog post with a list of the required hardware for those bugs and ask people to test that packages?
<sbeattie> pedro_: I think it'd be a good idea.
<pedro_> planet ubuntu has a wider audience
<cr3> sbeattie: I certainly have some hardware, like the 1420N somewhere near the top of the list
 * heno agrees
<sbeattie> cr3|fader: that's another point; once we get 8.04.3 isos going, can we do a round of the certification testing on them?
<cr3> sbeattie: yep
<fader> sbeattie: That shouldn't be a problem
<sbeattie> awesome!
<heno> great!
<sbeattie> expect nagging. :-)
<heno> ok, thanks sbeattie
<heno> [TOPIC] Spec Roadmap review -- heno
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec Roadmap review -- heno
<schwuk> ara: fixed
<heno> just 3 specs not approved now
<ara> schwuk: thanks
<ogasawara> heno: both mine (kernel bug handling and hwdb) are finished drafting and just pending review
<heno> and tomorrow is the project wide drop-dead date
<heno> ogasawara: we need to nag pgraner harder ;)
<heno> or I can help review them, just let me know, pgraner
<heno> and finally the checkbox enhancements spec needs more detail
<heno> schwuk:  do you need help with that?
<ogasawara> schwuk: I added a use case to that spec yesterday, hope you don't mind
<schwuk> heno: site is live - there's some more cleanup to do WRT CSS, but we're not blocked on IS anymore.
<schwuk> heno: No - still adding more detail.
<schwuk> ogasawara: I saw - thanks!
<heno> woho - excellent timing!
<heno> http://qa.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/
<ara> \o/
<pedro_> woohoo!
<ogasawara> nice!
<fader> Huzzah!
<heno> schwuk: ok, I'll want to do a final spec review tomorrow
<davmor2> yay!
<heno> yeah, it would be nice to have link colours match u.c
<schwuk> heno: noted
<heno> schwuk: can you clean up a few things like that and then blog about it?
<schwuk> heno: sure
<heno> great
<schwuk> For everyone else: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+filebug :)
<heno> any other topics?
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:27.
<heno> that was quick!
<schwuk> \o/
<schwuk> thanks heno
<pedro_> thanks you guys
<davmor2> thanks
<ara> thanks everyone
<sbeattie> thanks everyone.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-18
<jcastro> 5 minutes?
<evanrmurphy> jcastro: yep!
<popey> ya!
<jcastro> ah yes, popey is here
<jcastro> did the sideys come along as well?
<popey> hell yeah
<popey> longer than ever
 * popey is on the train tho
<popey> choo choo
<jono> just grabbing some water before we begin
<jcastro> 3 minutes!
<Ging> i'm unhappy with my seat
 * BUGabundo is ready
<Paul2> Ging: I'll swap with you
<evanrmurphy> Ging: you get what you pay for :P
<dpm> hi everybody
<Paul2> move up all...me and ging are swapping
 * popey stands up
 * popey tuts loudly
<evanrmurphy> hi dpm
<axisys> just got a twitt about this meeting
<BUGabundo> hey akgraner
<BUGabundo> axisys: me ?
<akgraner> BUGabundo, hey
<BUGabundo> akgraner: ready  to squash some bugs?
<akgraner> BUGabundo, ready to participate somehow...
<dpm> hey evanrmurphy
<axisys> jonobacon
<axisys> BUGabundo: from @jonobacon
<jono> hey everyone@!
<jono> oops
<sebsebseb> hi
<keffie_jayx> hey joaopinto
<BUGabundo> hey jono
<keffie_jayx> jono
<jono> lets give it a few mins for people to arrive :)
<keffie_jayx> darn tab...
<akgraner> hi jono
<pedro_> hey folks
<jono> heya BUGabundo keffie_jayx akgraner
<jono> heya pedro_
<BUGabundo> hey pedro_ joaopinto
<joaopinto> hi keffie_jayx
<sebsebseb> hi me :D
<jono> what is the irc:// address for this session?
<keffie_jayx> hey joaopinto ;)
<joaopinto> :P
<jono> need to tell a dude on Twitter
<nhaines> Hi everyone!  I'll just be lurking for today....
<Paul2> itc://irc.freenode.net/#ubuntu-meeting
<BUGabundo> jono irc://irc.ubuntu.com#ubuntu-meeting ?
<jono> thanks Paul2
<jono> and BUGabundo :)
<Ging> 1 of them has to be close
<boredandblogging> hola
<BUGabundo> hey boredandblogging
<popey> wheeee
 * popey is driving home
<akgraner> boredandblogging, howdy...
<mhall119|work> hey boredandblogging
 * pleia2 waves
<popey> (passenger)
<BUGabundo> popey: drive safely
<jono> hehe
<czajkowski> popey: thanks for clarifying
<jono> alright
 * BUGabundo waves back at pleia2
<popey> :)
 * akgraner waves to pleia2 
<linuxninja> Hello all...
<Ursinha> hi all :)
<jono> folks, take a beady eyed look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<nellery> hey all
<Paul2> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<BUGabundo> hi Ursinha
 * evanrmurphy beads his eyes
<jono> so, the other day I announced the new campaign
<Ging> i tried  twitter from the motorway last weekend, it was a bad idea
<jono> and the idea is to kick an epic amount of ass
 * BUGabundo tries to click on the link, but its running away
<jono> to put together a global event in which ubuntu fans get together to really make a difference
<BUGabundo> hey nhandler
<jono> and to bring innocent bystanders into our devious little meetings to show them the ubuntu spirit
<JayFo> muhahaha
<jono> and to get them psyched about joining our community
<mhall119|work> the great ubuntu conspiracy
<BUGabundo> jono: and to kill LP yet again ?
<jono> actually, that does need an evil laugh from everyone
<jono> mwahahahaa
<JayFo> heh
 * jcastro crests his fingers.
<Ging> is there such a thing as an  opensource conspiracy?
<L1pe> hi guys
<txwikinger_work> mwahahahaa
<jono> hehe
<popey> Can we have freaking laser beams?
<infocop411> Ging: good question
 * JayFo is a trend setter
<SiDi> jono: then you shall package an irc script to trigger the evil laugh
<jono> ok, so to make this event rock I think we need two things:
 * txwikinger_work puts his tin hat on
<JayFo> one millon dollars!
<nellery> beer?
<jono> firstly....
<jono> EVENTS
<jono> we need lots of people organizing events
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Events
<evanrmurphy> sup L1pe ;)
<kecskebak> Event handlers?
<jono> I think we need to promote the Global Jam in our own community first to get a good roster of events
<jono> there is no point us spreading the word outside the community if we have a handful of events
<JayFo> I smell an excuse to party
<infocop411> how about a opensorce driver for goldeneye
<BUGabundo> jono: already doing that on regular basis here!
<jono> so, kudos to the Birmingham team for getting the first one on that page
<jono> who else here is planning on organizing an event?
 * JayFo raises his hand
<dariusH> Will add wales to the list now
<Guest76971> We will have an event in Chicago
<conch> hey jono thanks!!! (q wright)
<mhall119|work> #ubuntu-us-fl is having one
<jono> conch, :)
<jcastro> (even if you don't have a location nailed down, put pending or something in your entry)
<L1pe> ubuntu-ar in planning one too
 * evanrmurphy applauds the Birmingham team
<jcastro> (so we at least have an idea of how many teams plan to participate)
<mhall119|work> at my house, actually
<jono> if you folks could start making some plans this week and updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Events that would be awesome
<Guest76971> jcastro: I'll add an entry for Chicago later today
<pedro_> I've commented the event the Tuesday during our monthly meeting, we only need to decide the date
<jcastro> sometimes it takes a while to get a venue etc, which is why we're starting as early as possible to give locos time
<clickwir> I'm not much of an organizer, but I'd love to goto a meeting in my area.
<sebsebseb> clickwir: same here I guess
<popey> clickwir: encourage someone else to orgnise then :)
<JayFo> yeah, I have been encountering the same for installfest
<mhall119|work> jono: can we still count if our jam isn't on that weekend?
<popey> clickwir: use powers of persuasion
<jcastro> mhall119|work: you can have a jam whenever you want
<nhandler1> jcastro: One idea that we had was to setup some live video streams of the events
<jcastro> yes, that would be a great idea?
 * txwikinger_work still tries to find a way to have Internet and PCs available for a jam
<mhall119|work> jcastro: well I know that, but can we put ourself on the list for the global jam?
<jcastro> what else do you guys think we should be encouraging people to do?
<popey> jcastro: putting presentations online
<jcastro> mhall119|work: sure, just make sure it's clear that you're early or late, as long as people don't get confused
<infocop411> or even a video uploaded later, if wifi isn't handy
<JayFo> I think I am going to merge my installfest with a bug jam
<popey> jcastro: like "how to package" in simple slides
<popey> jcastro: and "how to find good bugs"
<mhall119|work> cool, we're going to coincide ours with Florida Linux SHow
<jcastro> JayFo: that would be great, because you can pool resources
<BUGabundo> jcastro: I've read success stories of ppl that helped , even if they didn't knew what FOSS/Ubuntu was.
<popey> jcastro: so at the events people can give short 10-15 mins talks
<JayFo> right
<nhandler1> +1 popey. I think if we had pre-made presentations people could give, it would be great
<BUGabundo> jcastro: we could get more of those too
<JayFo> nhandler, I agree
<jcastro> popey: yes, we should encourage people to put their presentations from last Jams under /Jams
<jcastro> does anyone have presentations handy?
<mhall119|work> BUGabundo: I can post one of those
<jcastro> we can start putting them up there now
<popey> jcastro: stick them in bzr ;)
<nhandler1> jcastro: I'm sure I could get a copy of the one j1mc gave at our release party
<jcastro> popey: let's go with putting them on the wiki for now
<popey> ok
<jcastro> popey: I want to avoid having to tell people "go learn DVCS" when all they want is slides
<jcastro> popey: probably a good idea to stick them in bzr for advanced users as well though
<jono> sorry, folks, back
<jcastro> ok
<jono> got a quick call
<jcastro> so so far we have
<jono> I have submerged the phone in acid
<jcastro> packaging, bug, and translation jams
<jono> and docs
 * jcastro adds to the wiki
<nhandler1> jono: Could you maybe create a wiki page explaining how to setup a live video stream?
<popey> jcastro / jono be good to get approved locos to _lead_ by example
<jcastro> popey: \o/
<popey> put "pressure" on the approved ones that they should be showing the unapproved ones how to do it
<JayFo> ++
<popey> and of course the unapproved ones can use this as ammuntion for going for approval later
<JayFo> indeed
<dpm> what about the translations jams, have you guys got any ideas or suggestions for them?
<mhall119|work> there should be a Big Brothers/Big Sisters, only with approved/unapproved locos
<jono> nhandler, I am not very knowledgeable on that - maybe someone else can
<jono> popey, entirely agree
<nhandler1> jono: Maybe just outline what you did to get the At Home With Jono Bacon working
<jdardon> nhandler1 theres a package called webcam-server you can do it with that
<jono> nhandler, oh, sure, I can help with that
<popey> be better if people turn up rather than just watch geeks on video
<jono> so do you folks think we need a few sessions on organizing events/
<jono> I think that could be useful
<jono> maybe by a team that organized an event at the global bug jam
<nhandler1> popey: That is true, but it would be cool getting to watch some other LoCos jam
<popey> (although I appreciat that there is a certain type of person who enjoys watching geeks in a 320x200 window)
<jcastro> we can definately do some loco-to-loco training between now and then "how to run a good bug jam" etc
<BUGabundo> hey tgpraveen
<tgpraveen> hey BUGabundo
<czajkowski> nhandler1: it would actually, be kinda fun too
<evanrmurphy> translations jams may be tricky some of the l10n teams are very dispersed. Maybe coalesce the best we can and be sure to meet on IRC.
<tgpraveen> saw your msg and came
<BUGabundo> jcastro: I'll try to push it to our LoCo
<BUGabundo> we already have the place!
<czajkowski> evanrmurphy: we're having a summer jam in 2 weeks bugs and translations, so we're gonna see how it goes.
<BUGabundo> maybe we can make to events,... not sure
<popey> czajkowski: mail the podcast with the details so we can promote it!
<evanrmurphy> czajkowski: is it global?
<czajkowski> evanrmurphy: nope Ireland
<czajkowski> popey: okie dokie will do
<dpm> czajkowski: that sounds brilliant. I'm looking forward to see how it goes
<jono> so can we first decide if we think some IRC tuition sessions would be good?
<jcastro> yes
<jono> I am also planning on a tuition video on my vidcast
<jcastro> for sure they are, we did them last time
<jono> I can schedule that for next week
<jcastro> put me in for 1 or 2 "how to run a successful jam" sessions
<jono> who would like to do the IRC session?
<jono> jcastro, great, can you schedule them today and announce them/
<jono> also update the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam page
<jcastro> yep
<jono> cheers pal
<nhandler1> Could we also try to put up some example jam schedules on the wiki as well as some example material
<jono> I will do the video thing on Wed next week
<popey> jono: make sure you pimp the videos ahead of time!
<jono> popey, will do for sure
<jono> will blog and put on the website
<popey> send to loco contacts
<keffie_jayx> jono, I did mention marketing
<jono> popey, will do
<jono> keffie_jayx, yeah?
<popey> thanks :)
<JayFo> better put out some kind of notice today jono so I can get the word out here
<promeme> hi from Guatemala
<JayFo> :)
<keffie_jayx> jono, lots of people interested in getting together and tidying stuff like spreadubutnu and the like
<evanrmurphy> czajkowski: that does sound great.
<jono> JayFo, I will announce today
<JayFo> k
<jono> keffie_jayx, ahhh yes
<jono> I think thats totally cool for a jam
<keffie_jayx> jono, could we explore the possibility of seeing how we can incorporate that post october UGJ
<jono> keffie_jayx, totally
<jono> I think with each event we expand where it make sense
<jono> so, quick q
<jono> who here has a blog?
<jono> m/
<jono> o/
<evanrmurphy> hi promeme
<popey> o/
<keffie_jayx> o/
<linuxninja> I have a blog
<JayFo> akgraner does :-)
<JayFo> heh
<jdardon> promeme: 0/
<BUGabundo> JayFo: eheh
<JayFo> hee hee
<promeme> hi evanmurphy!
<BUGabundo> jono: jneves has one too!
<jdardon> 0/
<promeme> Here in Guatemala we have a Blog!
<keffie_jayx> para preguntas en espaÃ±ol pm a mi
<nhandler1> I can get a blog post out
<promeme> jdardon 0/
<jono> can I ask you all to blog the Ubuntu Global Jam ?
<jono> also remember it is NOT the Ubuntu Global 'Bug' Jam
<L1pe> o/
<jneves> BUGabundo, jono: 3 actually: personal, ubuntu-pt and others
<linuxninja> jono: I'll post something...
<nhandler1> jono: I'll get something up by the weekend
<linuxninja> I won't be able to go to a "Jam" event or host one.
<linuxninja> :(
<promeme> I think we can support to post it into ubuntu-guatemala.org too!
<jcastro> linuxninja: internet participation is always welcome
<linuxninja> jcastro: Cool!
<itnet7> sure will blog about it!
<patriconway> will there be a link on the main site, so that us who don't have blogs could tweet or facebook it?
<jono> btw http://twitter.com/jadi
<promeme> somebody else from Guatemala here?
<jono> awesome, I think getting the word out on our blogs makes total sense
<jcastro> jono: !
<nhandler1> jono: That reminds me, microblogging is a great way to get the word out
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<jcastro> is the page you want to link to
<jono> jcastro, no, look at the recent tweet on that feed
<jono> @jonobacon IRC is blocked. Tell our regards to Ubuntu Global Jam from Iran. I'm twitting the #iranElection story from a Kubuntu machine :)
<BUGabundo> nhandler over done already?
<jono> :)
<jcastro> yeah I saw that!
<jono> ahhh
<jono> ok, thanks all for blogging
<jcastro> I was responding to patriconway
<jcastro> who wanted a link
<itnet7> I think it's important for those with only twitter to take a moment to join identi.ca and link their accounts, two birds one stone!
<jono> and microblogging is valid as nhaines says
<promeme> is already any art/banner designed?
<jono> nhandler rather
<evanrmurphy> I'll make efforts to get Jam events in Texas and Pennsylvania (in TX now, PA in October)
<jcastro> promeme: help welcome on that front!
<pleia2> yep, we'll have something in PA
<pleia2> er US-PA :)
<jono> great to see more events on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Events appearing :)
<jono> damn, we need to add a When column on the tables
<jono> oops
<keffie_jayx> jcastro, can we use the live-streaming ?
<itnet7> When we secure our teams involvement we'll post about Florida's events
<jono> jcastro, could you go fix that for me now?
<jcastro> experienced loco people: I have a added a list for prep tutorials, feel free to add more if you have something to share with people
<jono> so people can specify which dates the jam will happen
<jcastro> jono: on it
<jono> jcastro, cheers dude
<jcastro> keffie_jayx: yeah, live streaming would be awesome
 * itnet7 goes to check to see if someone hasn't already added any
<mhall119|work> itnet7: too late
<JayFo> can I put more than one Jam jono or jcastro? I want to do a preliminary Jam to work any bugs out before Oct.
 * keffie_jayx though of identi.ca live-streming, uds style
<jono> JayFo, do as many as you like!
<jono> :)
<itnet7> Thanks mhall119|work !!
<JayFo> cool :)
<mhall119|work> itnet7: feel free to prettify it with proper links and such
<jono> I think what we really need help with here is helping teams understand how to do a jab
<mhall119|work> I didn't want to keep the page open for editing for any longer than necessary
<itnet7> Will do when some of the wiki activity dies down
<evanrmurphy> hola fmolinero
<linuxninja> It seems to me these "Jam" events are for geeks and not end users....
<JayFo> not mine linuxninja
<linuxninja> I would like to see more focus on the end user who doesn't know anything
<JayFo> I'm doing a combi-installfest too
<linuxninja> JayFo: Good
<conch> end users can triage many simple bugs
<mhall119|work> build days/install fests are good ways to get non-geeks involved
<JayFo> I think the best way to find doc bugs is for new people to work through them
<BUGabundo> linuxninja:  I've read success stories of ppl that helped , even if they didn't knew what FOSS/Ubuntu was.
<patriconway> installfests are fun!!
 * jcastro wrecks the wifi
<jcastro> fixing!
<JayFo> :-O
<popey> we had a guy turn up at ours who wanted his computer fixed :)
<JayFo> hahaha
<popey> completely new to ubuntu
<jono> ok, I am going to schedule my video now so we can announce, one sec
<jcastro> you can even do hardware testing
<jcastro> so like, if a non geek shows up with a laptop
<JayFo> that is the plan jcastro
<BUGabundo> popey: today we have a LoCoTeam and a brand new guy is poping by
<jcastro> fire up a live CD
<jcastro> get info, submit, done!
<JayFo> yep :)
<JayFo> great minds...
<linuxninja> BUGabundo: I think good ideas can come from just about anywhere
<akgraner> I was thinking an all things ubuntu event...be flexible and just go with it....
<promeme> how do we shall confirm our participation in this global jam guys?
<JayFo> akgraner, good idea
<jcastro> promeme: add an event to the page
<JayFo> we can do the quick talks like jcastro was saying'
<gotunandan> linuxninja: i think end users can get involved in 5-a-day
<jcastro> promeme: we don't track per person, just groups
<JayFo> while we do install/doc/hardware
<promeme> ok, I guess JDardon can do it, so, we are aboard as Guatemala Team!
<gotunandan> linuxninja: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day
<linuxninja> gotunandan: I'll check that out
<promeme> ah, jcastro, understood, I mean as Guatemala Team... jeje
<jcastro> no worries
<jcastro> are there any other things you guys might need from us?
<conch> you need a brief "how to do it" presentation at the start of each day because different people turn up
<jcastro> as far as helping you make an awesome evetn
<linuxninja> I think too many people see Ubuntu/Linux as a geek thing. While this "Jam" event is very cool and will help Ubuntu. I think we need more end user events of some kind.
<conch> linuxninja: you are absolutely right
<mhall119|work> did anyone post the Running an Event link?  If not, here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams
<BUGabundo> linuxninja: a room filled with PCs is always geek
<jcastro> mhall119|work: I just added the Jams header to the Global Page, so the instructions should be more obvious now
<evanrmurphy> linuxninja: I agree as well. But I think the Jam should go on, we should just get some end-user events going on too.
<war_> mhall119|work: sorry to interfere, but the content of this link is completely insufficient
<promeme> everyone has a geek inside!
<WanderingKnight> linuxninja: over here in Argentina team we've been seeing lots of end users but very few able geeks willing to actively participate
<linuxninja> BUGabundo: These days everyone has a computer. Not everyone has Ubunut on it though....
<jcastro> evanrmurphy: we always encorage people to run jams on their own whenever they want
<WanderingKnight> I believe it's very good to try something like this
<jcastro> evanrmurphy: some do, some don't, some do but not tell people, etc.
<JayFo> linuxninja, that is a shame :)
<mhall119|work> war_: is there something you'd like to add to it, or something more you need?
<jono> ok
<gotunandan> linuxninja: the word needs to get out though, even to end users, because there might be users who want to help but do not know of it
<jcastro> evanrmurphy: part of the reason we do a global one is for teams to become confident in running a jam so they can do so on their own if they want
<itnet7> linuxninja: there is nothing stopping you from holding a "meet and greet" Jam
<sebsebseb> I think end user training is important, for people that aren't that technical
<linuxninja> WanderingKnight: It's hard to get people to participate
<popey> linuxninja: thats always the way
<jono> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/at-home-with-jono-bacon on Wed 24th June at 6pm UTC I will do a training video
<war_> mhall119|work: i would like to see a clear indication of what the jam should provide
<jono> spread the word :)
<jcastro> gotunandan: right, that's why we're starting to plan in june, we have months to get the word out
<evanrmurphy> jcastro: good to know, thanks.
<war_> what shall be achieved and how to do that
<itnet7> linuxninja: buy them pizza, they will come :-)
<mhall119|work> war_: I don't think there is a standard of what a jam should provide
<Ging> do i get pizza?
<mhall119|work> or achieve
<linuxninja> itnet7: True.. Pizza brings people in
<jcastro> evanrmurphy: myself and daniel are always available to help out-of-band jams
<promeme> get some models to promote!
<popey> Ging: if you buy it
<jcastro> evanrmurphy: like if you need an IRC training session or something
<mhall119|work> itnet7: and cupcakes
<war_> mhall119|work: even if there is no standard, there should be a clear proceeding that users like the ones i represent can follow
<Ging> if they organised a global bug jam in bbq season that  might be fun
<itnet7> Ging come to a Florida event, we'll give you some pizza... mhall119|work, almost forgot cupcakes work too!
<war_> mhall119|work: ubuntu austria loco wants to participate but has no clue where to start
<jcastro> war_: right, that's why we have these meetings. :D
<war_> i tried to follow it but actually i do not understand what you talk about
<mhall119|work> Ging: there will be BBQ at the Florida jam
<promeme> hey war_  look at this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams
<war_> you want to include users, but what should they do
<war_> read documentation? correct it? state its unclear?
<mhall119|work> war_: talk, eat, show off their desktop, whatever
<war_> promeme: I did read the pages
<jcastro> war_: each jam page has instructions
<czajkowski> itnet7: can I come :)
<jcastro> we need to develop those pages to be useful for people
<itnet7> czajkowski: you are always welcome! :-)
<war_> jcastro: if they are clear to you, fine, but not for my people
<czajkowski> itnet7: you may regret saying that :)
<war_> we do not know how to contribute
<mhall119|work> czajkowski: no he won't, because it's not going to be at his house
<promeme> well, so do you have any doubt? maybe we can help you exactly on what you need...
<evanrmurphy> jcastro: thx again
<itnet7> mhall119|work: righto!
<limb_clock> hello :)
<JayFo> war_, you can do something as simple as install
<rowinggolfer> hang on... this jam is planned for 2-4th of October. that only allows for 25 days for liver to recover before the launch of Karmic. A little too close?
<limb_clock> jono: thanks for the link in the twitter
<war_> JayFo: we had install parties
<JayFo> rowinggolfer, not if you keep drinking for the 25 :)
<JayFo> war_, did you file bugs for issues you encountered?
<mhall119|work> war_: can you work with another LoCo close by that has been doing this for a while?
<itnet7> war_: I would suggest you wait until the list populates a little more and then join some other loco channels and see if we can help you
<war_> as I understand, jams are here to fix something or make things go smoother
<jono> limb_clock, :)
<linuxninja> rowinggolfer: Hahaha... And wow! Were that close to the launch of Karmic...
<itnet7> come up with some ideas!
<limb_clock> jono: also, it's great that you're on FLOSS weekly :)
<jono> limb_clock, thanks! :)
<conch> war_: also to resolve or diagnose existing bugs
<jono> I think we might need some tutorial sessions earlier jcastro
<promeme> bye guys, need to lunch right now... let's keep on track!
<limb_clock> jono: it was the first podcast concerning FLOSS stuff i got on my iPod :D
<jcastro> jono: I can do more
<JayFo> 'FLOSSing with Bacon' :-P
<war_> conch: how can we resolve bugs, I personally gave up even bothering
<limb_clock> strange really
<jono> limb_clock, awesome :)
<jono> jcastro, I think some in a few weeks would be wise
<limb_clock> i have the same first name as Leo Laporte
<limb_clock> ;)
<jcastro> jono: ok
<promeme> estoy empezando a generar algo de info de como hacer el evento, se las comparto en espanol luego...
<jono> as we need people to get events organized soon
<rowinggolfer> Speaking of Karmix (which I acknowledge we weren't) I am concerned that 9.10 is delayed 3 days. 9.11 has a completely different connotation.
<conch> war_: attempt to reproduce or else ask for more information
<limb_clock> events?
<promeme> por si alguno lo necesita...
<promeme> have a nice day!
<limb_clock> i use ubuntu 9.04 here. with a SiS chip
<limb_clock> the SiS chip that isn't supported 3D acceleration wise
<war_> conch: i think we can take that on our agenda
<jono> ok, lets not take this off topic
<war_> still, maybe this can be added to the Jam webpage
<akgraner> So as I understand this event we can make this Jam anything ubuntu we want based on our loco and their needs and skill sets?
<jono> are there any other things we think we need to discuss to encourage teams to organize events for the Global Jam?
<jono> akgraner, yep
<akgraner> ok great
<conch> war_: it helps if people work in pairs on areas/ applications that they know a little about
<jcastro> war_: add it!
<war_> jcastro: add what to what?
<evanrmurphy> Question: Is the UGJ intended specifically for work on Karmic, or whatever the organizers decide? (Oct. 2-4 is quite close to release date, is it not?)
<jcastro> war_: add what you feel you need to the pages
<jono> jcastro, you totally bust my tables :P
<jcastro> jono: sorry, should have waited until after everyone was trying to add their event. :-/
<war_> jcastro: i have questions not answers yet
<BUGabundo> evanrmurphy: usually work is done on "that" moment in time
<jono> jcastro, no worries, we can fix it
<BUGabundo> its a JAM
<BUGabundo> you can squash bugs, help ppl upgrade,install etc
<war_> I will discuss this with our team and set up an agenda
<jono> war_, great :)
<rowinggolfer> 2-4 of october is also close to lugradio live. I fear for the health of UK ubuntu users this october.
<jcastro> heh
<war_> jono: does it have to be october 2 - 4?
<popey> :)
<mhall119|work> it's also the week before Atlanta Linux Fest, and a few weeks before Florida Linux Show
<popey> rowinggolfer: you'll cope
<war_> I got that from your blog
<popey> there is now way to find a weekend that doesn't clash with _something_
<rowinggolfer> popey - I'll be looking down the barrel of a divorce
<jono> war_, yes its agreed now
<jono> popey, exactly
<txwikinger_work> and a few weeks before Ontario Linuxfest
<jono> and if an event is happening, do a jam at the event
<jono> thats what the california did at SCALE :)
<war_> fine, ubuntu-at is part
<mhall119|work> jono: jcastro said I could list an event outside of that weekend, as long as I specify
<evanrmurphy> BUGabundo: are you saying it's a ripe time to get together because it's so close to release?
<Gareth> yay. SCALE.
<jono> mhall119|work, sure :)
 * Gareth creeps back to his corner
<mhall119|work> +1 Scale
<gotunandan> war_: the global jam is on october 2 -4 , but any of those events can be carried out at anytime as well, it always helps !
<jcastro> for example the Berlin LoCo's has Jams like every week
<jcastro> we encourage that!
<jcastro> as many as you want to have
<itnet7> jono maybe it would be good to add a mentoring availalbe column as well, to let other loco's know who is willing to be contacted for advice on the Jams
<jono> ok, i think we are about done
<King_Arthur> Now that Empathy has voice/video we can now get us older (45) people to help out. Sign Language is easier than typing.
<conch> it's good if everyone does it at the same time because you can irc and stream video to other groups
<jono> itnet7, thats a great idea
<BUGabundo> we have a LoCoteam meeting open to public every month in Portugal
<jcastro> itnet7: that's brilliant
<jono> anything else to discuss?
<jcastro> jono: announce the next irc meeting
<rowinggolfer> jono - I can fully understand the benefit of local "jams". I would love to organise one here (North of Scotland). However, in what way is this a global event? how would "jammers" in Inverness be aware that they are part of a larger event?
<jneves> rowinggolfer: they'll interact with others on launchpad?
<jcastro> jono: monthly on the 3rd thursday is what I have written down
<mhall119|work> is there a twitter/identi.ca tag to use for the events?
<jcastro> jono: that'll give everyone time to go do awesome stuff, then we can all reconvene and deal with problems, etc.
<jcastro> mhall119|work: we defined some on the page last time, feel free to add whatever makes sense
<jcastro> mhall119|work: also, flickr tags as well
<jono> rowinggolfer, its global in that we have events happening all over the world on the same weekend
<rowinggolfer> jneves. that's not a crowd puller IMHO.
<jcastro> we want people to take as many pictures as possible
<jono> jcastro, yep
<jono> yes, third thursday of each month at this time we will have a meeting
<jcastro> rowinggolfer: people will be in and out of IRC all weekend, it gets a nice global vibe to it
<jono> ok, thanks everyone
<jono> so, if everyone good:
<jono>  * blog the event
<jono>  * microblog it
<Technoviking> jcastro: we could edit the lifestream for !ubuntu, !bugjam, etc...
<jono>  * tell your communities
<jcastro> Technoviking: yep!
<jono>  * organize an event :)
<BUGabundo> mhall119|work: #GBJ?
<rowinggolfer> impressive - I put "october 2009" into google, and no 4 hit is ubuntu jam.
<mhall119|work> BUGabundo: it's not just a bug jam
<jcastro> I idle in #ubuntu-localteams if anyone has questions
<itnet7> BUGabundo: just what I was UGJ
<evanrmurphy> sorry, I had this one question: is the UGJ kind of intended for work on Karmic more than anything?
<BUGabundo> mhall119|work: #UbuntGlobalJam ?
 * itnet7 thinks that didn't come out right
<evanrmurphy> right before the release?
<jcastro> evanrmurphy: whatever helps the project.
<itnet7> #UGJ
<evanrmurphy> jcastro: ok gotcha
<mhall119|work> #UGJ or #UbuntuGlobalJam would work
<itnet7> Short and concise remember 140 characters
<itnet7> :-)
<Technoviking> #ucj FTW!
<mhall119|work> +1 #UGJ + 136 other characters
<itnet7> and a group too boot!
<jdardon> jono: could you help us with a sponsor for the Guatemalan team to make this jams?
<itnet7> s/too/to
<evanrmurphy> rowinggolfer: that is really impressive
<Technoviking> We need a greasemonkey script to convert LP<bugnumber> in identi.ca to the bug LP link:)
<rowinggolfer> jono - I'm right behind you buddy. good luck with this.
<akgraner> swwweeeeetttt!!!  this should be fun!
<jcastro> Technoviking: file a bug on gwibber for that please.
<jono> thanks folks!
<jcastro> Technoviking: and assign it to me
<jono> gonna be awesome!
<jcastro> thanks everyone!
<Technoviking> jcastro: got it
<evanrmurphy> thanks jono and jcastro
<jcastro> also, feel free to update the wiki pages with info
<jono> jdardon, now sure I could help sponsor, sorry
<jono> thanks evanrmurphy :)
<jcastro> they're now "ours", so if stuff needs fixing, go ahead
<rowinggolfer> I don't like jam that much. too sweet.
<patriconway> rowinggolfer did you notice that we're several links above windows 7 on that search
<jdardon> jono: thanks if you know somebody could do it would be great
<jono> jdardon, will do :)
<kn100> hey guys
<JayFo> thanks jono and jcastro
<jono> JayFo, thanks!
<jcastro> ok, fixing the events table, no one edit please!
<rowinggolfer> patriconway: seriously, ubuntu must have friends in high places at google.
<conch> thanks too jono, jcastro
<evanrmurphy> rowinggolfer: instead of jam, try fresh berries with a bit of honey
<evanrmurphy> so good
<rowinggolfer> ubuntu global berries and honey. that'll work
<kn100> ubuntu-fresh-berrys
<patriconway> rowinggolfer well there is that rumor that quite a few of the techs at google run a remixed ubuntu with tighter integration for their cloud etc
<mhall119|work> UbuntuGlobalFreshBerriesWithABitOfHoney is too long
<popey> i read that as "try fresh batteries with a bit of honey" and wondered if evanrmurphy was a robot
 * brobostigon wonders if he is allowed to speak?
<popey> patriconway: it's not a rumour, it's well known Google Corporate run Ubuntu internally
<itnet7> brobostigon: it's an open meeting why wouldn't you be able to speak?
<evanrmurphy> popey: you must hang out with the coolest robots, or at least the most healthy ones
<popey> :)
<brobostigon> itnet7: oh, i didnt know, thanks, :)
<evanrmurphy> popey: oh I see the "batteries" now lol
<itnet7> brobostigon: no worries
<brobostigon> itnet7: thanks much.
<jdardon> ok thanks jono jcastro  and everyone! have a great day
<rowinggolfer> I still think... if I am going to organise a local ubuntu party... I'll wait for karmic launch.
<rowinggolfer> I just think that's more to celebrate
<popey> rowinggolfer: this isnt a party
<popey> rowinggolfer: it's to get work done
<clickwir> rowinggolfer: but people need help all the time.
<mhall119|work> rowinggolfer: you're not limited to just one
<rowinggolfer> oh... it's not for new users?
<Ging> will there be cake?
<Grantbow> working while having fun doing it
<popey> rowinggolfer: read the fine wiki :)
<brobostigon> i was planning a launch party for 9.10, in midlands,uk, now how far away are they going to be from eachother?
<mhall119|work> the cake is a lie
<mhall119|work> or so I hear
<kn100> the cake is a lie
<BUGabundo> brobostigon: a few weeks
<popey> brobostigon: karmic releases end of october, jam is at start of october
 * Ging sulks
<Ging> so it's true
<kn100> what is ubuntu bug jam exactly?
<rowinggolfer> all I've read is http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1869
<brobostigon> popey: ok, good planning,
<popey> kn100: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam#
<kn100> popey just saw that
<kn100> lol
<brobostigon> BUGabundo: that could mean two, i could plan that.
<popey> kn100: It's not a bug jam, it's just Ubuntu Global Jam
<kn100> cool
<popey> Release parties and Jams tend to be _different_ types of events
<czajkowski> popey: clearly having a blonde moment! Sorry!
<popey> :) czajkowski
<akgraner> rowinggolfer, it's for anyone and everyone  not just one group of users....
<rowinggolfer> popey... ok. I got confused by the "organise a event" thread
<brobostigon> i have a clear idea, og inviting all the enginers in my area to bugjam, however release party, anyone can come.
<popey> brobostigon: anyone can come to both!
<rowinggolfer> brobostigon: but jono stated categorically that this was NOT a bug jam
<brobostigon> popey: good point, its only big searching and fixing, :), agreed.
<popey> rowinggolfer: only because it's not _just_ bugs, its other things too
<jono> rowinggolfer, bug jam is *part* of it
<jono> its not *only* a bug jam
<rowinggolfer> ok.. sorry for being dense.
<brobostigon> rowinggolfer: ok, " Ubuntu Global Jam"
<kn100> wish i had the knowledge to help
<itnet7> brobostigon: rowinggolfer: it's like pick your poison, your free to do more than bugs or just bugs :-)
<brobostigon> kn100: we all help in out own way, we all do something different and in different ways to help.
<brobostigon> our*
<popey> kn100: you'd be surprised
<brobostigon> itnet7: that makes sense,
<popey> kn100: people can turn up and get going very quickly!
<popey> it just takes a little bit of coaching
<kn100> i mean actually learning c for examps
<kn100> example*
<popey> you dont need to know or learn c to contribute
<Grantbow> that's quite an example - what are you interested in working on?
<kn100> well thats what i wanna know, how can i contribute
<popey> kn100: watch jonos video stream next wednesday and find out
<czajkowski> kn100: testing, report bugs, translations
<rowinggolfer> I would like to get rid of all the python deprecation warnings that python 2.6 has brought to ubuntu.
<popey> kn100: the link I pasted does actually list stuff
<rowinggolfer> that's surely doable
<czajkowski> kn100: bug triaging, like figuring out all the bugs there do they need to be there, or do they need more info in them
<kn100> testing i can do, reporting bugs doubt i can since i have never found one believe it or not, and translations, definate non
<kn100> i wanna get into writing programs
<kn100> but python QT and GTK got me cowering lol
 * rowinggolfer notes jono's video date of 24thJune 6pm UTC.
<kn100> 24th june
<kn100> what day is that
<kn100> wednesday?
<rowinggolfer> is there a google type calendar for this thing?
<popey> rowinggolfer: yes, fridge has a calender
<popey> *calendar
<kn100> j just use tomboy
<kn100> tomboy notes are so helpful
<kn100> saved my butt quite a few times
<rowinggolfer> so _that's_ why it's called a fridge. I never got that.
<kn100> whats better to learn, python or c for end user programming
<popey> jono / jcastro are we done here?
<kn100> ok.. on the last bug jams success blog
<kn100> in the florida picture
<kn100> in the ireland picture even
<kn100> theres a guy using a macbook o_0
<popey> so?
<kn100> lol
<popey> Macs run linux
<kn100> yup
<czajkowski> kn100: aye not mac os on it
<czajkowski> actual Ubuntu on it, I think
<kn100> is it you czajkowski
<czajkowski> kn100: but I was sitting beside the guy who had it
<kn100> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3395/3299129303_a85e43c5a3.jpg
 * brobostigon leaves
 * markie- leaves
<kn100> i wish there was more info on how ubuntu is coded, how to bug fix, etc
<popey> there is
<kn100> google isnt finding much
<kn100> or maybe thats me
<dariusH> kn100: try the ubuntu wiki's there's alot on there
<popey> kn100: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs
<kn100> i think i am going to triage
<kn100> ern where the hell is the ubuntu bugs part where people can triage?
<gotunandan> kn100: you can get involved in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day
<kn100> saw that
<stefanlsd> kn100: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<kn100> ubuntu community ftw
<BUGabundo> bye
<kn100> stefanlsd: erm that is turning .tar.gz SC into .deb packages right?
<stefanlsd> kn100: 1 part of it. anything to do with the dev side of Ubuntu. ie. fixing bugs, patches etc
<kn100> oh i see
<gotunandan> kn100: packaging is what the MOTU members do, they handle the universe repository
<kn100> i think i'm going to leave that for now
<gotunandan> kn100: but the .deb packages are not only sources, they contain the actual binary files too
<kn100> do any of you guys package?
<popey> i have done a little
<kn100> hard?
<itnet7> kn100: some are a lot more difficult than others
<kn100> ok, erm. i think i am going to stick with attempting to learn python
<kn100> then i can write my own programs lol
 * mhall119|work is learning python
<kn100> mhall119|work: worked out GUI programs yet?
<mhall119|work> not yet, but planning on doing some pygtk
<itnet7> kn100: that wasn't said to discourage you :-)
<kn100> itnet7 i know
<itnet7> coolo
<kn100> but it looks a like a little too much for me to handls
<kn100> so i am going to continue to try and figure out python
<mhall119|work> python is pretty easy to get going with
<mhall119|work> GTK, not so mcuh
<kn100> yeah
<kn100> i wrote some programs in python allready using Tkinter and pygame (simple media player), but i cant figure out GTK
<mhall119|work> kn100: how was pygame?  I need that for Qimo
<kn100> i only used its media playback capabilities, and it worked quite well
<kn100> only thing is it doesnt handle non english charecters very well
<kn100> just throws an exception
<kn100> i wish there were was an ide that worked like vb6
<kn100> wysiwyg, then jump to code view, and write the visual basic code behind the buttons
<mhall119|work> kn100: Glade
<kn100> Glade i couldnt get the hang of, worked nothing like visual basic, QT worked almost perfect for what i needed it for, but i couldnt figure out how to get python code out of it
<kn100> only .ui files
<mhall119|work> Glade lets you separate the UI from the logic
<mhall119|work> oh, ok
<kn100> visual basic was like html and php but a programming lanuage
<kn100> language
<mhall119|work> I never use WYSIWYG UI editors, never liked them
<kn100> it makes prototyping programs so easy
<mhall119|work> PHP is a programming language
<kn100> plus visual basic, while not cross platform, was done every effectively
<kn100> mhall119|work: you know what i meant, like c#
<ScottK> If you like C#, you can use C# in Ubuntu.
<kn100> no
<mhall119|work> I thought I did, but the C# comment makes me more confused
<kn100> lol
<nhaines> Best to stick out Python.  :)
<kn100> lemme try and clarify
<kn100> visual basic worked like dreamweaver, but was a lot more powerful than php/html obviously
<kn100> well was similar to dreamweaver
<kn100> interface design very drag and droppy
<kn100> like qt'sb
<kn100> but i cant figure out how to put python code into the UI file if you know what im trying to say
<nhaines> kn100: you mean like it had a decent code editor and a GUI editor?
<nhaines> kn100: SPE might help.
<kn100> nahaines yep
<nhandler> Might I suggest moving some of this obvious non-meeting discussion to another channel
 * mhall119|work never used dreamweaver
<kn100> Stanis python editor?
<kn100> and nhandler yes
<nhaines> Whoops!  nhandler's right.  :)
<kn100> anyone want to move to my channel to continure this?
<mhall119|work> kn100: sure
<kn100> #unemployed
<nhaines> heh
<czajkowski> itnet7: *ping*
<lool> Hey
<ogra_> moo
<plars> bock
<ogra_> where is mr. casadevall ?
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:02. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> *coughs*
<ogra_> ah
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090618
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090618
<ogra_> no agenda ?
<ogra_> ah
<ogra_> i'm slow
<NCommander> Sorry, I wasn't watching the clock.
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to investigate pm-dashboard (co)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to investigate pm-dashboard (co)
<ogra_> co, sorry
<NCommander> co on the next two action items for me
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to investigate thunderbird segfaults on ARM (https://launchpad.net/bugs/340595)
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to investigate thunderbird segfaults on ARM (https://launchpad.net/bugs/340595)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 340595 in thunderbird "thunderbird-bin failed to start: burned lots of CPU crashed with SIGSEGV (dup-of: 385325)" [Undecided,Invalid]
<NCommander> (this is now on our roadmap)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 385325 in thunderbird "[armel] thunderbird-bin crashed with SIGSEGVI" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ogra_> really ?
<NCommander> And I need to update it for the current bug number :-)
<NCommander> Yeah
<ogra_> you did a lot of work on that, didnt you ?
 * ogra_ wouldnt call that a co
<NCommander> Still ongoing actually, as there is a good chance we may get stuck with TB2
<GrueMaster> I think bug 337809 may be moot as it was lpia.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 337809 in linux "APIC error on CPU 0" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/337809
<ogra_> you mean 3 ?
<NCommander> ogra, no, I'm c/oing the vnc4 and the lpia bug
<NCommander> ^s
<ogra_> (TB3)
<NCommander> Oh, es
<NCommander> *yes
<lool> GrueMaster: It doesn't happen with i386 kernels?
<GrueMaster> I'll double check, but I don't think it happens with UNR, only MID.  It's been a while since I looked.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, if it doesn't happen with UNR, I think we can safely ax that bug.
<GrueMaster> That's what I said.
<GrueMaster> Will retest soonish.
<NCommander> [action] GrueMaster to retest 337809 on i386
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster to retest 337809 on i386
<lool> NCommander: I'm happy if you just conclude the work you started on TB2 arm issues and call it broken; perhaps one thing which you could attempt is mailing the original upstream bug reporter as he might have found a fix
<NCommander> lool, well, if this last test still fails, then yes, I'm going to call it quits on this one
<ogra_> lool, well, there is some request from OSG that we find a fix
<lool> (The upstream comments indicated the patch might not help)
<lool> ogra_: OSG?
<lool> Oh OSG
<ogra_> heh
<lool> Geezm too many acronyms
<ogra_> yeah
<NCommander> We sure like our TLAs :-)
<lool> It's going to be a pain
<plars> overseas shipping group?
<lool> OEM Solutions Groups   :)
<NCommander> ogra, who requested that we work on TB (this is the first I heard of OSG wanting it)
<plars> :)
<lool> (but perhaps you knew)
<ogra_> well, we could go with TB3 in universe
<NCommander> I still don't know why they renamed themselves from OEM to OSG
<GrueMaster> Obese Smelly Gremlins?
<ogra_> but TB was a request
<plars> TB2 specifically? or just "a working TB"?
<NCommander> plars, for some reason, I can't see OSG jumping with joy at shipping TB3 ....
<ogra_> plars, some TB :)
<NCommander> Do we have anything else on this bug to say from anyone?
<NCommander> Guess not
<NCommander> Op
<lool> No
<NCommander> *ok
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review and Roadmap Construction
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review and Roadmap Construction
<NCommander> Hopefully by now all specifications have been drafted, and submitted to the roadmap by now
<NCommander> I believe the best way to go forward is go through each spec, get the current status, time estimation if its assigned, or work on assigning specs to people
<NCommander> Any objections?
 * ogra_ still has two in drafting ... but they are listed and have their ETA
<NCommander> Alright, no objections, lets go through it
<NCommander> [topic]  mobile-unr-karmic-wubi (StevenK)
<MootBot> New Topic:   mobile-unr-karmic-wubi (StevenK)
<ramaddan__> hi, sorry, I'm new to this, and I did not know how to add a spec for review on the roadmap
<ogra_> is StevenK around even ?
<lool> ramaddan__: What's your spec?
<ramaddan__> I wanted to add this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LoginVirtualKeyboard/
<lool> ramaddan__: That's nice; who would be implementing the changes?  You?
<NCommander> ramaddan__, we already have a virtual keyboard spec on our roadmap
<GrueMaster> NCommander: It's the same one.
<ramaddan__> me with the help of someone
<ogra_> cool
<lool> ramaddan__: That's all fine; you're welcome to report periodically on progress of your work over the karmic cycle
<NCommander> ramaddan__, there's currently no one assigned to that specification, I don't think there will be an issue with assigning you to it. (davidm is in charge of such things0
<ramaddan__> however, the spec was broken down into two issues, keyboard for gnome, and keyboard for terminal, but the terminal one is on hold for now
<lool> We review spec progress at these meetings, but you can raise any question or issue at any time
<ramaddan__> ok
<lool> You're not required to attend or anything, but it's nice if we have a way to get updates
<NCommander> ramaddan__, I assigned you to the spec on our Roadmap
<ramaddan__> well, in terms of progress, I decided to go with a different keyboard called florence as opposed to onboard, is that fine?
<ogra_> ramaddan__, can you add a proper spec header to the wikipage ?
<ramaddan__> as the florence developper already implemented some important features, as well as being very communicative
<ramaddan__> sure, but how should the spec header be?
<ogra_> have a look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/ArmRootfsBuilderGUI
<ogra_> cross link it to the LP entry of the spec and make sure davidm assigns it to you in LP
<NCommander> I'm going to skip over StevenK's specs unless he pops up before the meeting is over
<lool> ramaddan__: Concerning the change in the implementation, just document the rationale on the wiki page
<lool> ramaddan__: If you want this virtual keyboard to be enabled by default in Ubuntu flavours which are in "main
<lool> "main
<lool> Grmf
<lool> in "main", you will have to ask for promotion of your packages to main, but you'll see when that's required
<NCommander> ramaddan__, as part of the roadmap review, you'll have a opportunity to bring up implementation and progress notes (right now, this is our first Roadmap review session for karmic)
<ramaddan__> ok, it reduces strain on me anyway, as I'm new to this, and need to learn my way around, so will promote when it seems ready
<NCommander> ramaddan__, no problem, we all hang out in #ubuntu-mobile, and the team is quite litterially spread around the globe, so feel free to drop in and ask for help
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)
<ramaddan__> thanks, that really helps
<GrueMaster> Waiting for someone to review it and pick it apart.
<NCommander> any volunteers?
<GrueMaster> Guess I'll have to have my mom review it.  sigh,
<NCommander> GrueMaster, try asking StevenK to, he'll know the issues the best
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-android-execution-environment (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-android-execution-environment (NCommander)
<NCommander> [action] GrueMaster to ask StevenK to review mobile-unr-karmic-applications spec
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster to ask StevenK to review mobile-unr-karmic-applications spec
<NCommander> On android-execution, I'm dep-wait OSG. It isn't clear their work will be ready in the karmic timeframe, nor have the necessary kernel changes landed
<NCommander> I should have a clearer picture on this in the coming weeks
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-accessibility (Unassigned)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-accessibility (Unassigned)
<plars> it is drafted and in review state
<NCommander> Any takers on reviewing it?
<plars> sent email to neil to see if he has anything to add
<NCommander> [action] unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned
<MootBot> ACTION received:  unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-translations (Unassigned)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-translations (Unassigned)
<NCommander> Steve is set as the drafter on it, and I don't see a specification attached
<NCommander> I'll c/o it
<ramaddan__> ok, I added a header and linked it, is this correct? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LoginVirtualKeyboard
<NCommander> [topic]  mobile-qa-karmic-unr  (plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:   mobile-qa-karmic-unr  (plars)
<plars> NCommander: drafted, sitting in review state, already assigned to me
 * NCommander nods
<NCommander> [topic] ubuntu-mobile-voice-user-interface (Unassigned)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-mobile-voice-user-interface (Unassigned)
<NCommander> dyfet is the drafter
<dyfet> It should be ready for review...
<lool> ramaddan__: Looks good
<ramaddan__> lool: Thanks
<NCommander> I'll skip the UNR 2-d interface, no Steve
<NCommander> *sigh*
<ogra_> wait
<NCommander> ?
<ogra_> that one is supposed to be done by OSG
<ogra_> i was discussing it with repete several times this week and he should have contacted davidm about it by now
<NCommander> Should I scratch it from our roadmap?
<ogra_> k-s (gustavo) is supposed to draft and implement it
<ogra_> not before you get the "go" from davidm
<lool> Gustavo is working on this, I think he announced plans around E1*
<ogra_> El* ?
<ogra_> oh the enlightenment
 * ogra_ just had one :)
<NCommander> ogra, +1 pun
<ogra_> lool, right, but the paperwork needs to be done too and steven was eager to get off the hook
<ogra_> thats why i was hasseling repete the whole week
<lool> E1* as in E17 and 16
<davidm> ogra_, sorry was called awsay on ca phone call
<davidm> I've not heard from repete this week
<ogra_> davidm, it was about the 2D launcher spec
<ogra_> hmm, i'll chase him down tomorrow then
<ogra_> so OSG officially takes over the spec
<NCommander> [action] ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec
<davidm> Ah, I think it's being done a different way by different people
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-login-virtual-keyboard (ramaddan__)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-login-virtual-keyboard (ramaddan__)
<NCommander> ramaddan__, we already discussed this spec earlier, but i didn't get an estimation on how long you except this to take? (i.e., how long until you expect the feature to land in archive)
<NCommander> hi StevenK
 * StevenK waves sleepily
 * ogra_ gives StevenK a caffeine pill
 * NCommander starts a caffeine drip
<ramaddan__> I placed a month for myself, tentatively
<NCommander> ramaddan__, thus noted, thank you :-)
<NCommander> [topic]  mobile-unr-karmic-wubi  (StevenK)
<MootBot> New Topic:   mobile-unr-karmic-wubi  (StevenK)
<ramaddan__> NCommander: and for updates, I come back here on Thursdays, right?
<StevenK> NCommander: Blocked on -seeds
<NCommander> ramaddan__, right, Thursday at 21:00 UTC
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-seeds (StevenK)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-seeds (StevenK)
<ramaddan__> NCommander: how long do the meetings last?
<ogra_> ramaddan__, we try to make it in 1h
<NCommander> ramaddan__, an hour, although this one probably going to run over (or spill into #ubuntu-mobile)
<StevenK> NCommander: Blocked on me learning bzr
<ogra_> learning ???
<ogra_> wow
<StevenK> Or something. Read as, I'm having trouble with it
<NCommander> O_o;
<ogra_> ask us :)
<NCommander> StevenK, we don't bite (much)
<ogra_> (not now indeed)
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-iso-versus-img (StevenK)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-iso-versus-img (StevenK)
<ramaddan__> ok, will keep that in mind. Bye for now then :-) and thanks to everyone for your help
<NCommander> ramaddan__, have a good night!
<StevenK> NCommander: No progress, waiting for davidm on that one.
<ramaddan__> NCommander: you too
<davidm> StevenK, what am I holding up?
<NCommander> StevenK, there are a bunch of unassigned UNR specs, do you want them?
<StevenK> davidm: It's Review, or it was when I went to bed
<davidm> Oh, OK I'll look now
<ogra_> most of our specs are review
<NCommander> StevenK, check the roadmap, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap, make sure all the specs you care about are there, and assign yourself to anything you plan on implementing
<davidm> NCommander,  mobile-unr-karmic-iso-versus-img approved
<NCommander> ^- StevenK
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader (NCommander)
<NCommander> Redrafted for Karmic. In review.
<ogra_> implemented ?
<ogra_> slacker !
<NCommander> Depwait armel on hardware that supported kexec()
<ogra_> :)
<StevenK> Okay, then I think I can mark -img-as-iso as Implemented.
<NCommander> I'll do dev work on i386 as a basis and port over if approved
<NCommander> ogra_, :-P
<NCommander> [topic] zeitgeist-for-unr-favorites (njpatel)
<MootBot> New Topic:  zeitgeist-for-unr-favorites (njpatel)
<NCommander> Who isn't present
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-qa-karmic-arm (plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-qa-karmic-arm (plars)
<plars> NCommander: drafted, sitting in review state, already assigned to me
<NCommander> \o/
 * NCommander will have to make sure all the specs on the Roadmap are either In Review or Approved
<NCommander> [topic]  mobile-karmic-data-sync  (Unassigned)
<MootBot> New Topic:   mobile-karmic-data-sync  (Unassigned)
<davidm> NCommander, zeitgeist-for-unr-favorites is a spec for the DX team
<NCommander> davidm, so scratch it from the roadmap?
<ogra_> drop it from the roadmap
<davidm> NCommander, yes, move it down and comment it out so we don't lose it.
<StevenK> No, don't drop it, move it out
<NCommander> Done
<ogra_> add an "other teams" table ?
<ogra_> for the 2D launcher too
<NCommander> Sure, good idea
<davidm> ogra_, that sounds good
<NCommander> done 2.0
<NCommander> I guess no one has anything to say about data-sync
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)
<davidm> 4 minute warning
<ogra_> davidm, we wont make it in time today
<lool> Don't know what there's to comment on this one, NCommander: you updated it, you might want to comment
<GrueMaster> I think the data-sync was persias.
<NCommander> Drafted the specification, clarified points of the discussion, and added possible implementation ideas, but its still for loic to implement.
<NCommander> Needs to be moved to the In Review state.
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)
<lool> Ok, will do that, moving to davidm
<ogra_> ready for review
<ogra_> we need a nice project name btw
<NCommander> For offline-installer?
<ogra_> lool wasnt happy with me calling it ubuntu-armel-rootfs-builder
<lool> argo
<ogra_> ok ok ... i'll call it argo and we are done with that part :)
<NCommander> unsupported-rootfs-builder?
<NCommander> :-)
<lool> I wished we'd at least avoid arm in the name, if possible ubuntu (as learnt from the uvb experience)
<NCommander> uvb?
<ogra_> NCommander, read the spec ...
<NCommander> *ahem*
<StevenK> non-livecd-rootfs
<NCommander> supported-rootfs-builder :-)
 * StevenK hides
<ogra_> its supposed to get you a supported setp after my work :)
 * NCommander chuckles
<StevenK> not-really-livecd-rootfs-i-just-like-the-name
<lool> ogra_: I think any random name without too much significance is fine; rootfs-gears or bongodaloop
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (ogra)
<ogra_> bongodaloop !!!
<ogra_> i like that
<StevenK> Now Look What You've Done
<ogra_> well, on lxde dyfet did a lot of work, i reviewed it today but it still needs some corrections
<lool> I am happy to provide more of these: shazampaf, deedleadum, carambada
<ogra_> dyfet, would you like to take that one ?
<dyfet> ogra_: yep, drafted it this afternoon...
<ogra_> shazampaf is cool as well
<dyfet> ogra_: okay
<plars> sounds too much like shamwow
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)
<ogra_> dyfet, so its yours
<dyfet> ogra_: what corrections did you see?  I worked from the notes...
<ogra_> touchscreen -> still drafting, thats a lot of paperwork since i need to merge it with the jaunty one
<NCommander> I'll skip the mer spec. ENOPERSIA
 * GrueMaster has lost track of the current discussion...sleeping.
<NCommander> [topic]  mobile-unr-karmic-connman (plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:   mobile-unr-karmic-connman (plars)
<ogra_> dyfet, well some things missing still, one typo and edubuntu isnt a lightweight desktop ;)
<StevenK> GrueMaster: That's because there is two
<ogra_> NCommander, redboot ?
<plars> NCommander: it's drafted, in review state, but could probably use some better implementation details from someone who understand what it will need better
<dyfet> ogra_: will adjust :)
<NCommander> ogra, oh wow, I'm starting to fade :-/
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-management (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-management (ogra)
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> drafting
<StevenK> plars: I'd suggest asking asac for guidance
 * NCommander has been awake for ~16 hours now :-/
<ogra_> note that conman is a dep fro lxde
<NCommander> I have concerns w/ conman replacing network managers
<NCommander> *manger
<plars> StevenK: he was one who left review comments asking for such
<NCommander> I noted it on the spec page
<dyfet> ogra_: agreed, it is as drafted...
<ogra_> NCommander, for lxde its perfect
<NCommander> ogra, it has known issues with some wireless cards, especially broadcomm
<ogra_> it fits in certain setups
<NCommander> which upstream was unwilling to fix
 * StevenK twitches
<ogra_> heh
<NCommander> StevenK, you probably should get that checked
<StevenK> Because supporting other wireless cards is bad ... ?
<plars> NCommander: did you put that on the whiteboard or wiki?
<ogra_> bcm isnt intel :P
<NCommander> plars, wiki
<lool> (We're over time)
<StevenK> ogra_: I did think that, yes
<ogra_> lool, well, we're done so far i'd say
<NCommander> lool, no one is scheluded to use this room until Friday afternoon ...
<StevenK> We so aren't going to keep going until then.
<StevenK> Are We?
<ogra_> depends whose afternoon
<GrueMaster> I have another room I'd like to visit.
<NCommander> I'll make this quick
<NCommander> [topic] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<NCommander> Anyone have anything else to bring up?
<lool> GrueMaster: same here  :)
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to confirm list of specs to be in Review and Approved and have davidm set LP status accordingly
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to confirm list of specs to be in Review and Approved and have davidm set LP status accordingly
<GrueMaster> Sprint coming up.
<ogra_> to the other room ?
<davidm> It's in Dublin
 * NCommander needs to figure out how to get there from DebConf ...
<davidm> flap your arms??
<lool> erf
<NCommander> davidm, I was thinking giant slingshot ....
<plars> we seem to have skipped/didn't have time for discussion on bug workflow, but I didn't send anything to NCommanderin advance... if you'd like, I can put together an outline on a wiki page (marked not final of course) for later discussion?
<davidm> That could work too but the landing would suck
<GrueMaster> Judging by what I remember from seeing him at UDS, he'd need to flap really hard.
 * GrueMaster ducks
<ogra_> depends on whom you land :)
<davidm> plars, that sounds good.
<lool> plars: Sounds good; I'd prefer discussing next week than now
<NCommander> plars, well, we have until tomorrow afternoon, we could chat now ...
<NCommander> oh wait
<NCommander> sounds like I was overruled.
<plars> NCommander: from debconf? wouldn't you just open a merge request? :)
<GrueMaster> LOL
<StevenK> And have Launchpad do it?
 * StevenK hides
<lool> *sync*  :-)
<NCommander> StevenK, no, I'd like to make it to the sprint in one piece
<NCommander> StevenK, and not a pile of zope exceptions.
<NCommander> Anyway
<GrueMaster> NCommander is definitely an exception.
<GrueMaster> :P
<StevenK> Haha!
 * NCommander throws UnhandledExceptionException at GrueMaster's head
<plars> I'm thinking we're done
<NCommander> I think your right
<NCommander> Anything else
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> going twice
<GrueMaster> Ew.  Throwing Vista  errors.  how nasty.
<ogra_> ah, the countdown
<NCommander> Shutdown countdown interrupted!
<NCommander> :-P
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:12.
 * lool sleep &
 * ogra_ too
<NCommander> thirds the motion
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-19
<cprofitt> JanC, popey you guys here?
<pitti> o/
<ttx> o/
 * slangasek waves
<fader> Howdy
<heno> hey
 * apw listens in
<bjf> o/
 * lool waves
<mdz> hi
<cjwatson> yo
<cr3> hi folks
 * pgraner waves
<cjwatson> slangasek: are you chairing or is it rotating?
<slangasek> davidm, Riddell, sbeattie, Hobbsee, ScottK: there?
<ScottK> slangasek: Here
<slangasek> cjwatson: I was planning to
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> slangasek, here
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-19
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-19
<Riddell> hi
<sbeattie> hey
<slangasek> hi, folks
<slangasek> as mentioned in the email, the main topic today is to gather up our feature definitions for karmic
<slangasek> ttx has asked to go first due to time constraints
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team
<ttx> o/
<ttx> Not much progress since last week. All specs were filed, but we have too much of them...
<ttx> so we are in the process of prioritizing them
<slangasek> ttx: when can we expect that work to be done?
<ttx> slangasek: I hope on Monday.
<ttx> slangasek: it's more on dendrobates hands right now
<slangasek> ok
<ttx> There is some organizational change under way in the team but it's not complete yet.
<slangasek> is there a partial list of known confirmed specs that we should look at?
<mdz> dendrobates: ?
<ttx> I don't think any of them was formally approved yet.
<slangasek> ok
<ttx> server-karmic-eucalyptus-in-main and server-karmic-cloud-power-management are the only two already known to be Essential
<ttx> slangasek: What exactly do you need to discuss by FeatureDefinitionFreeze ?
<ttx> sladen: new packages ? MIRs ?
<slangasek> known essential specs> noted, thanks
<ttx> The spec with most impact as far as new packages is concerned is probably server-karmic-euca-javadeps-refactoring
<slangasek> ttx: IMHO it should cover any specs for features being added in karmic
<ttx> slangasek: that means most of ours. You want to discuss all of them quickly ? Or it doesn't make sense until they are prioritized ?
<slangasek> let's not spend time on them right now if we don't know which ones are actually planned to be worked on this cycle
<slangasek> is server-karmic-euca-javadeps-refactoring a prereq for server-karmic-eucalyptus-in-main?
<ttx> slangasek: not exactly. It makes an easier MIR process to have the package refactored before it's moved to main.
<slangasek> ok
<ttx> slangasek: rather than moving a giant trashcan to main.
<slangasek> yes - even if it's not a prereq, please don't defer server-karmic-euca-javadeps-refactoring for too long in the cycle :)
<ttx> slangasek: I'm on it already :)
<cjwatson> what milestone is server-karmic-eucalyptus-in-main targeted for?
<cjwatson> I have an Essential spec that depends on it, which I've currently targeted for alpha 3
<cjwatson> well, I suppose it isn't a hard dependency
<ttx> cjwatson: we don't even know what Eucalyptus 1.6 dependencies will be yet.
<slangasek> ttx: the only other thing I had on the list for you guys is bug #326768 - still marked as 'in progress', but no movement since last week, is mathiaz still on this?
<cjwatson> specifically I'm referring to foundations-karmic-cloud-setup-in-server-installer
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 326768 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "mysqld_safe thinks mysqld has crashed when it hasn't" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/326768
<ttx> cjwatson: yes, another related spec is server-karmic-eucalyptus-fit-on-cd
<ttx> both are not expected to be completed before we get upstream eucalyptus 1.6
<ttx> I'd say, not before alpha3
<ttx> so if you depend on it I'd advise retargting
<cjwatson> well, I should start on the installer glue anyway
<cjwatson> it'll take a while
<cjwatson> I'll just not be able to actually deliver something testable by the general public until later - I'll note it in the whiteboard
<ttx> cjwatson: I expect to complete both during the platform sprint
<ttx> slangasek: about the mysql bug, mathiaz is still on it, no progress since last week. I'll make sure he updates the bug
<ttx> we've been busy with blueprint finalization this week :)
<slangasek> I don't mean to imply he needs to update the bug if there's been no progress - I'd rather he spend his available time working on it
<slangasek> ttx: anything else to discuss?
<ttx> slangasek: nothing from our side. I hope everything will be much clearer next week.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<slangasek> heno, fader, sbeattie: hi
<heno> hi
<heno> Our roadmap is all ready: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap Specs are written, approved and prioritised.
<heno> It's mostly bug management, test coverage and infrastructure; not much that will land in the distro - just some Checkbox enhancements
<heno> karmic-qa-increase-apport-adoption, karmic-qa-checkbox-expand-test-coverage, karmic-qa-cert-install-from-live-cd-images and karmic-qa-metrics-based-testing are Essential
<slangasek> ttx: sounds good, thanks
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap
<heno> questions?
<mdz> heno: well done
<slangasek> heno: thanks. :)  Which are the ones that will land in the distro?  I notice two 'checkbox' specs under 'Infrastructure', plus 'Increase Apport Coverage' which probably counts
<heno> thanks :) we did some heavy-handed prioritisation early on, before most of the drafting
<fader> slangasek: Of the checkbox ones, I think only karmic-qa-checkbox-expand-test-coverage will land in the distro
<slangasek> ok
<fader> It will add new tests to checkbox
<heno> slangasek: right, some checkbox tweaks and lots of aport hooks
<fader> The other one is for internal testing of the live CD which is specific to the testing environment
<slangasek> sounds reasonable then
<slangasek> do you guys have any concerns about these being delivered before feature freeze?
<heno> slangasek: ATM, no :)
<slangasek> okie
<heno> cr3 can give an update on live cd testing
<slangasek> anything to discuss regarding hardware testing this week?
<cr3> slangasek: live cd tests should start trickling in on Monday
<fader> Nothing particularly new.  As normal, status is here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<fader> As cr3 says we should start getting live cd tests soon, which is a Good Thing
<heno> ('til now we've only tested alternates)
<fader> We don't have recent test results as there doesn't appear to have been a recent alternate cd image to test
<slangasek> fader: I think your hwtest-breaking network kernel bug is still 'fix committed', right?
<cr3> live cd changes are in and just pending review, so we're in good shape
<slangasek> yes, that's apparently my fault
<fader> slangasek: Correct, but we haven't had an image to test with yet
<slangasek> (and cjwatson fixed it this morning)
<fader> So once we get one and test it I will update the bug
<slangasek> fader: you've lost me - if it's 'fix committed', that implies it's in the git repo pending upload to karmic
<slangasek> are you saying there's doubt about the correctness of the fix?
<cjwatson> fader: if it's worth a quick build before the end of your week, we can do one any time from about half an hour from now onward
<fader> slangasek: Ah, sorry, was thinking 'fix released'
<slangasek> ok
<fader> cjwatson: It would be nice to have but to be honest it will be easier to test next week once the live cd testing lands
<fader> So if we wait until Monday or Tuesday that is fine... we'll be testing a lot of images then anyway
<heno> slangasek: that's all from QA
<slangasek> ack, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team
<lool> Hey
<lool> Ups, not me yet :)
<pitti> 1spec definition is by and large in good shape: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+specs?searchtext=desktop-karmic-
<pitti> the ones that are in drafting have been reviewed by me at least once and are just needing some clarifications
<pitti> the main ones that are still missing are the DX changes, we have contacted them to get them ready
<pitti> but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus should be pretty accurate now in terms of what we'll do
<pitti> in Karmic
<slangasek> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+specs?searchtext=desktop-karmic-
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+specs?searchtext=desktop-karmic-
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> oops, ignore the "(specs in drafting, so don't take for granted yet):" from the wiki page
<pitti> [removed now]
<slangasek> looks good
<pitti> wrt. your next question,
<pitti> can't say yet whether _all_ of this will land in karmic by FF
<slangasek> I'll have to spend some time fully absorbing that list later, and will get back to you with any concerns about individual specs
<pitti> we were very aggressive wrt. feature goals this time, so it's likely that some low prio items won't make it
<pitti> mostly because we'd rather break stuff now than in lazy lobster
<slangasek> presumably those low-prio ones can get cut if they miss FF, being low-prio?
<pitti> my goal is to have as few structural changes as possible in LL
<pitti> right
<pitti> essential/high -> must have
<pitti> medium -> not the end of the world, but someone would get angry
<pitti> low -> target of opportunity
<pitti> that's roughly how we use them
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> and I see the bug status report is up-to-date there as well, ok
<pitti> right
<slangasek> anything you want to highlight/discuss further?
<pitti> there hasn't been much progress on that this week unfortunately
<pitti> we were mostly busy with blueprints
<pitti> not from my side right now
<slangasek> I continue to be concerned about bug #339313 in particular; I know the focus has been on spec writing, but this bug has been something of a debacle and I'd like to be able to see it fixed soon in the cycle
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 339313 in ubuntu-release-notes "Kubuntu Jaunty: Cannot Connect To Wireless Network with WEP shared key" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/339313
<pitti> right, me too
<pitti> we'll probably also SRU this
<pitti> it can't get much worse in Karmic, so I was told
<pitti> s/Karmic/Jaunty/, sorry
<ScottK> Isn't that the NM update we have in -proposed already?
<slangasek> is it?  nothing indicates that on the bug
<ScottK> It may be a different issue.
<Riddell> yes it is
<ScottK> OK
<pitti> hm, then the changelog doesn't mention this bug
<slangasek> mm, quite
<slangasek> which means it's hard to track for SRU verification
<Riddell> we should copy over the new version to -updates, it fixes it for some users and can't get any worse
<pitti> hm, whoever processed that didn't update the bug very well
<pitti> ok, let's sort this out out-of-band
<rickspencer3> I suppose we should see an update on this next week? with details about how it's been sorted?
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek, pitti, Riddell, ScottK to sort out bug #339313 status
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek, pitti, Riddell, ScottK to sort out bug #339313 status
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 339313 in ubuntu-release-notes "Kubuntu Jaunty: Cannot Connect To Wireless Network with WEP shared key" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/339313
<rickspencer3> tx
<slangasek> rickspencer3: yes
<slangasek> ok, shuffling the order here again; ScottK also has a schedule conflict and asked to be bumped up
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ScottK: hi
<ScottK> Still sorting out Python 2.6 stuff.
<ScottK> Nothing earthshattering there, but the pain isn't over.
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> (hmm, still need python2.5 dropped from python-defaults)
<ScottK> Mostly merges and new package processing on REVU for now.
<ScottK> There's also one or two Kubuntu related specs worth mentioning here.
<ScottK> Specs are mostly sorted, but the Kubuntu - Ayatana one is getting approved a bit late because it's complex.
<ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu?searchtext=kubuntu+karmic is a decent list.
<Riddell> I'll look at that later today
<ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-karmic-netbook-edition will have some release management implications, but as it's meant to be mostly tech preview/proof of concept, I don't see it as a major issue.
<ScottK> That's all I have.
<rickspencer3> ScottK: Riddell: would it be worth dropping a link to the Kubuntu TODO list?
<ScottK> rickspencer3: Probably, if someone had it handy
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<Riddell> now burndown chat  compatible I believe
<Riddell> chart
<rickspencer3> yes
<rickspencer3> thanks to pitti and Riddell
<ScottK> The good news is it looks like KDE4 integration for OOo is almost done and starting to land upstream (Go OOo)
<ScottK> That took some serious heavy lifting and will benifit every KDE distro.
<ScottK> That's all I've got.
<slangasek> ScottK: probably old news to you having been around for a few of these, but please make sure (collectively) that any new netbook-edition images are ready to be tested well in advance of beta
<ScottK> slangasek: Will do.
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<slangasek> ScottK: ok, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile team
<lool> Our specs should be under review or pending approval and are tracked along with high prio bugs at:
<slangasek> lool, davidm: hi
<lool> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<lool> (I wish we'd have named all specs mobile-karmic-foo like the desktop ones)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<lool> Essential specs:
<lool> - mobile-unr-karmic-seeds: cleanup seeds structure and seeds for UNR
<lool> - mobile-qa-karmic-arm: Create testplans and testcases for Ubuntu on ARM Edit title and summary..
<lool> - mobile-unr-karmic-connman: switch UNR to connman
<lool> High priority specs:
<lool> - mobile-unr-karmic-applications: change in default apps in UNR
<lool> - mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling: provide tools to calibrate touchscreens
<lool> - mobile-unr-karmic-application-res: improve support on low res for some apps under UNR
<lool> Alpha 3 and overall release status:
<lool> - all specs should be under review or approval (one is already implemented: moving UNR images to ISOs)
<lool> - ARM images:
<lool>   - imx51: nothing new for now; Babbage 2 kernel should land for A3 (bjf?  :-) and we got an early U-Boot drop which might supersede RedBoot altogether, so we'll evaluate this option after A3; we lack hardware (only 4 B2 boards available total for now)
<lool>   - we plan addition of a new architecture, but are waiting for bits from a partner and his permission to publish; we have early (unstable) hardware
<lool> - ARM toolchain: we're getting late on this, we still want to build karmic with ARMv6 + VFP opts, and IS is currently benchmarking builds within qemu; we will get good ARMv7 buildd hardware, but presumably too late for that to be useful in karmic
<lool> - UNR: moved from VFAT to ISO format; no large software update, still largely jaunty's stuff; some SRUs still TBD
<lool> - 385325: I remilestoned this for beta; we continue researching this important bug, but it's not particularly a3-critical
<lool> (done)
<slangasek> mobile-unr-karmic-seeds> sounds like a good one to get done early, this time around - what still needs cleaned up?
<bjf> look, yes, shooting babbage2 for A3
<pgraner> s/look/lool/
<slangasek> connman> so we'll have two different UIs to support for network connection management?
<bjf> lool, issue could be when .31 drops and when we try to rebase to that
<lool> Various things, and it's in progress already; I don't know all specifics, but I think we discussed using a separate live seed, using a common gtk-desktop seed and this kind of things
<bjf> lool, still working on getting babbage 1 patches into Karmic, that's a struggle right now
<lool> slangasek: StevenK does this spec and has started various changes already
<ttx> slangasek: got to go now... ping dendrobates for any server-specific question.
<lool> slangasek: Yes, apparently we will have to support connman for UNR
<slangasek> ttx: no problem, thank you
<lool> This is a request from sabdfl
<lool> bjf: So the babbage 2 patches drop support for b1?
<slangasek> hmm; last I heard, connman had no plans to support half the use cases covered by NM
<bjf> lool, no, I need to get babbage 1 in before I start working on babbage 2
<lool> bjf: We don't strongly care about b1 support; if we can have it it's nice, otherwise we can continue running jaunty or just the jaunty redboot+kernel
<lool> bjf: ok
<bjf> lool, babbage 2 patches are build on-top-of babbage 1 patches, they have to go in first
<lool> bjf: Ah there's a dependency, ok
<bjf> lool, yes
<lool> slangasek: During the connman session, upstream explained that connman doesn't attempt to cover everything and tries to be simpler
<bjf> lool, this is a forward port of both the babbage 1 and babbage 2 patches
<slangasek> lool: right, which sounds like a functionality regression to me :)
<lool> slangasek: It will miss features, yes
<pitti> is connman a replacement for the entire nm, or just for n-m-applet?
<lool> For all of it
<lool> davidm: If you have further comments on UNR connman integration, chime in
 * ScottK runs off.  Enjoy the rest of the meetnig.
<davidm> Pitti as I understand it it's a replacement for the entire nm stack
<davidm> we will test with both
<davidm> so choices can be made as appropriate.
<slangasek> anyone have anything else for mobile?
<lool> I think the hot things are images and toolchain
<lool> But both will happen post a3, after updates from kernel, partner, and our IS
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team
<slangasek> lool, davidm: thanks
<pgraner> Hey everyone
<pgraner> We have created a Release Status page for Karmic:
<pgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<pgraner> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<pgraner> This is a Red/Yellow/Green Status with links to the blueprints and specs. Its updated every Tues. in our team IRC meeting. You will also find all the bugs on your agenda on the == Release Meeting Bugs == section.
<pgraner> On the same page
<pgraner> All Specs are approved, and in some form of implementation
<slangasek> is the next kernel upload scheduled?  (seeing that half the bugs are 'fix committed')
<pgraner> The only one that got deferred was the "Newer Kernels on LTS"
<pgraner> slangasek: I don't know off hand rtg is scheduling it
<rtg> slangasek: I'm still working with apw on the KMS/PAE issue
<slangasek> ok
<apw> what rtg said
<pgraner> slangasek: what rtg said
<apw> and there is also some interactons with the installer which need to be nailed down
<apw> for the flavour names
<rtg> slI think we should be OK to upload if the installer and the update manager cooperate
<cjwatson> generic will just work
<rtg> cjwatson: correct
<cjwatson> I'll have time to do the pae stuff early next week
<rtg> upgrades aren't an issue, its the initial install that might cause problems.
<rtg> but I'll work with cjwatson on that
<cjwatson> not *that* much of an issue. code to check cpuinfo flags is already there, just needs to be extended.
<cjwatson> my main worry is that we *cannot* fit >1 kernel on the CD.
<apw> then i guess most people will be staying on generic with the current mapping
<cjwatson> my opinion at the moment is that we should have generic on the alternate/desktop CD and pae as a network option; for server, possibly pae on the cd
<cjwatson> since that maps reasonably to what we're doing at the moment
<apw> we can perhaps just recommend they consider it?
<cjwatson> and I'm concerned about performance claims regarding pae
<rtg> cjwatson: in the past the server booted an non-pae kernel, but installed a pae kernel. is that still gonna be the case?
<cjwatson> (for general use)
<lool> So enabling PAE at runtime is definitevely ruled out even in light of the space constraints?
<cjwatson> lool: I asked ...
<cjwatson> nobody has a working patch for PAE alternatives yet though. Kyle apparently started one a while back
<apw> there is no working patches to do that at th emoment
<cjwatson> rtg: that could be changed if you reckon it's important
<rtg> cjwatson: it seems like you should boot the kernel you're gonna install
<cjwatson> the problem with the server CD is not so much that as the fact that it installs a PAE kernel unconditionally and doesn't tell you that it won't work until you reboot
<cjwatson> rtg: I can't make that a hard guarantee; I agree it's nice when possible
<rtg> cjwatson: ok
<rtg> slangasek: no more kernel topics from me.
<cjwatson> I've generally tended to think that the installer should use a fairly permissive kernel in terms of CPU requirements, so that it can be flexible about what it installs if you're not up to scratch
<cjwatson> not that I've extended this to using the 386 kernel across the board or anything :)
<pgraner> slangasek: nothing else from kernel...
<slangasek> anyone else have questions for the kernel team?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team
<slangasek> cjwatson: heya
<cjwatson> righto
<cjwatson> we have the traditional big chart at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<cjwatson> traffic light colours are pending resupply from the shop but should arrive soon
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<cjwatson> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+specs?searchtext=foundations-karmic- is a not completely unreasonable list, but unfortunately we weren't entirely consistent about spec names so there are some things listed off that; the wiki page is more complete
<cjwatson> s/listed/missing/
<cjwatson> as you can see, we have a few drafting stragglers, and a slightly greater number of reviewing stragglers
<cjwatson> Robbie has gone through doing resource guesstimates and deferrals though, so at this point I believe we're reasonably happy with the combined workload
<cjwatson> oh, the wiki page also includes some community-assigned specs
<cjwatson> any questions based on those?
<cjwatson> of the bugs you listed, one is going to be wrapped up as part of a spec currently targeted for alpha 4, and the other one I'll hoover up before EOD today
 * slangasek finishes absorbing the prioritizations
<slangasek> looks good to me
<cjwatson> slightly more Essentials than I'm truly happy with, but those are mostly from-above kind of things
<slangasek> only 4 of which are distro feature things, anyway
<cjwatson> yes
<cjwatson> depending on how you count usb-creator for Windows
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> thanks - no other questions here
<cjwatson> .oO Architecture: mingw
<slangasek> oh, we'll just make that spec depend on multiarch then
<cjwatson> for great justifce
<lool> Eh
<cjwatson> -f
<slangasek> [TOPIC] 8.04.3
<MootBot> New Topic:  8.04.3
<slangasek> wanted to talk just a bit about this today
<slangasek> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html has the list of packages that are still waiting SRU verification for hardy; we want this list down to zero before the point release to minimize the ISO mastering hassle
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html has the list of packages that are still waiting SRU verification for hardy; we want this list down to zero before the point release to minimize the ISO mastering hassle
<slangasek> dendrobates: there are a number of server packages on there that aren't getting love; can your team provide some support there?  (samba, apache2, openldap2.3)
<slangasek> (redhat-cluster)
<dendrobates> slangasek: yes.
<slangasek> there's also an open-iscsi upload I've done that I want to have kirkland or mathiaz review/validate for me; I'll prod them directly
<dendrobates> slangasek: ok
<kirkland> slangasek: on my todo list for today
<slangasek> hal also needs hardware-specific SRU verification for a Sony Walkman USB device, anyone have one of those? :)
<slangasek> (or, just general purpose regression testing of hal for hardy)
<sbeattie> slangasek: the qa team is going to do a testing hug day on monday focusing on 8.04.3 SRU verifications: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/20090622
<slangasek> oh, great :)
<sbeattie> in part to tease out some of the hardware specific SRUs if we can.
<slangasek> in that case, we probably want good test cases in all of the SRU bug reports
<pitti> for many of those, regression testing actually is more important
<slangasek> ...which we don't always have, today
<pitti> it doesn't help if a bug is confirmed to fix hw on a particular system, but break another
<slangasek> sure
<pitti> right
<pitti> I tried to say
<pitti> testing new versions on any hw and telling us "yep, still working" helps a lot
<heno> we'll also run install tests on all the cert hw as soon as we have test images
<slangasek> I should have those up Monday
<slangasek> (unless someone else has time to get them up before then)
<heno> ok, great
<sbeattie> fader: think we can get those going on monday, when they come up?
<fader> sbeattie: Yes, we should be able to do that.  If it doesn't get picked up automatically I can always start the tests by hand, so one way or the other we'll get them.
<sbeattie> fader: excellent, thanks.
<slangasek> that's all I have on the 8.04.3 front; anything else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> I'll take that as a no
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:28.
<slangasek> thanks, folks
<pitti> thanks everyone
<heno> thanks!
<pitti> slangasek: just to confirm, I won't allow new hardy-proposed stuff without your explicit consent
<slangasek> pitti: ok, thank you :)
<pitti> slangasek: with hardy being out for more than a year, there can hardly be so urgent issues right now
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-21
<mdeslaur> kees, jdstrand, sbeattie: meeting?
<sbeattie> hey
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> oh yes
<jdstrand> o/
<kees> hi!
<mdeslaur> morning kees  :)
<kees> mdeslaur: you called it, you get to run it.  :)
<jdstrand> hi kees!
<kees> heya guys
<mdeslaur> kees: oh geez, I have to learn the magic doohickey?
<kees> mdeslaur: not if you don't want to
<kees> if you want, you can just go first :)
<mdeslaur> #starmeeting
<mdeslaur> d'oh
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:05. The chair is mdeslaur.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdeslaur> I am _awesome_
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Work items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Work items
<mdeslaur> so, today I'll be pushing cups, opie and fastjar
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place, so I'll go down the CVE list, and will take a look at the blueprints
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> next!
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: that would be you
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: ?
<jdstrand> I am planning to continue to work on the firefox update testing
<jdstrand> hardy should be in good shape over all, excepting some epiphany testing
<mdeslaur> so is epiphany staying with xulrunner for now%
<jdstrand> my karmic testing uncovered some bugs whihc should be fixed now, but need to be reverified
<mdeslaur> ?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: yes, until a non-major-regressing version can be uploaded
<mdeslaur> ok, cool
<jdstrand> however, epiphany now will pull in the new 1.9.2 that will be in hardy (it has some dynamic checking)
<jdstrand> so that needs to be tested (cause yelp broke, which had a similar mechanism), or it needs to be patched to not pull in 1.9.2, and then that patch needs testing
<jdstrand> karmic is interesting because of openjdk, which requires a backported from lucid openjdk
<jdstrand> (because of the plugin changes)
<jdstrand> so I have encouraged the mozilla team to contact doko and make sure that his testing procedures are performed on their backport
<jdstrand> jaunty is uploaded and untested by me. I imagine there will be a few bugs
<jdstrand> but, upstream still hasn't released 3.6.4, so I am hopeful we can get hardy-lucid out all in one go
<jdstrand> that'll save a bit of work as opposed to trying to do a 3.5.10 followed by 3.6.4, etc etc
<jdstrand> anyhoo
<jdstrand> last wekk I did the libvirt merge, and it went well. this time I was able to pull out almost all the apparmor specific changes since they are upstream and it still works :)
<kees> \o/
<jdstrand> I did add one patch for apparmor that upstream forget to commit
<jdstrand> that means that I should be able to hand this off to hallyn and the server team soon
<jdstrand> \o/
<kees> nice :)
<sbeattie> yay
<jdstrand> yes. very :)
<jdstrand> for the rest of the week, I hope to get out sudo and perhaps get back to koffice
<jdstrand> (I am happy place this week)
<jdstrand> I'll also toss out that I have some other (not nearly as exciting) merges to do. maybe I'll get them in, depending on how firefox and the other updates go
<jdstrand> that's it for me
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week, which serves as a reminder that I need to put together an application for core-dev and motu
<kees> heh :)
<sbeattie> Last week was triage, I made some progress on security bugs, and need to finish up getting my cve triage env setup (almost done, I can coordinate with kees to perhaps do a run one day this week)
<kees> sbeattie: i was thinking that if you're downtown tomorrow, we can go over it in person too
<sbeattie> Doh, that's right, tomorrow! Yes, let's plan on that.
<kees> cool
<sbeattie> I think that's all I've got at the moment (I need to do the apparmor 2.5.1 commits review and some QA tasks)
<kees> tiff publishes today. i'm on triage but will get sbeattie to help a bit there.
 * jdstrand also needs to do the 2.5.1 commits review
<kees> need to finish up my new LSM and get that published. :P
<jdstrand> NAK
<jdstrand> :P
<kees> heh
<sbeattie> kees: NAK, you can just implement it as a systemtap plugin.
<jdstrand> heheheh
<mdeslaur> hehe
 * kees cries and laughs
<jdstrand> kees: does it help or hurt that we all point and laugh?
<kees> helps :)
 * jdstrand hugs kees
<jdstrand> kees: I for one very much appreciate all the upstream kernel work you do. thanks :)
<jjohansen> dito
<kees> anyway, that should be it for me; will probably start another round of kernel security. jdstrand since ff is eating your time, do you want to skip this round?
<jjohansen> nothing but sympathy here
<kees> heh, thanks
<jdstrand> kees: yes please
<mdeslaur> kees: done?
<jdstrand> kees: if that is ok with you, that is
<kees> cool. i'm done. yeah jdstrand that's totally fine
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Various
<MootBot> New Topic:  Various
<jdstrand> kees: I could probably try to make some time, but I'd have to revise my plans for the week ;)
<jdstrand> ok cool
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have anything they would like to discuss with the security team?
 * jdstrand does not
<mdeslaur> ok, that's it. Thanks everyone
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:29.
<kees> thanks!
<jdstrand> thanks mdeslaur
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: thanks!
<jdstrand> (and everyone else!)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-22
 * andreserl TestDrive PyGTK Front-end Demo Released!
<lifeless> what time is the meeting ?
<piju> 2200UTC
<lifeless> dunno what meeting you're thinking of
<lifeless> but thats out by ~10-12 hours
<nigelb> lifeless: I think another hour to go.  I presume you mean asia board
<vish> lifeless: probably in another hr
<lifeless> yah
<vish> ah , nigelb !
<lifeless> the one I'm the board for :P I figure I should be here
<nigelb> vish: too slow :p
<nigelb> lifeless: heh
<happyaron> meeting time?
<lifeless> works for me
<piju> hi
<amachu> hello!
<wzssyqa> hey
<happyaron> persia: hi
<persia> hey happyaron
<freeflying> hi all
<ejat> ello ..
<happyaron> do we have enough board here?
 * persia thinks we're short a secretary
<happyaron> well, yup
<happyaron> Eleanor: hey
<Eleanor> happyaron: hey
<amachu> persia: and quorum
<persia> amachu: We're at least four, but I haven't seen traffic from lifeless, Vantrax, takdiir, or e-jat
<ejat> persia: 0/
<lifeless> persia: thats cause you're not idling :)
<ajmitch> persia: you need to lurk harder
<persia> Indeed :)  In that case, we're very quorate.
<elky> Sorry I'm late, only just walked in.
<elky> We have quorum?
<persia> We have at least six present.
<elky> Whee!
<amachu> fenris or e-jat ?
<amachu> we can begin now
<amachu> i feel
<hyperair> amachu: ejat's around.
<elky> It's almost 15 past, so yes.
<ejat> i cant register nick fenris in irc ..
<ejat> so i use ejat
<amachu> let's vantrax join later
<amachu> persia: ?
<ejat> piju quit?
<amachu> lifeless: ejat: freeflying: raise your hands
<lifeless> o/
<amachu> vantrax: Hey..
<happyaron> Vantrax: finally you are here, :D
<Vantrax> hi
<Vantrax> sorry, ran a little late getting home
<Destine> Vantrax, hi
<elky> Lets just start, those not loooking at the screen will later
<Destine> elky, hi
<ejat> o/
<amachu> Vantrax: we are five positively, you can take over
<Vantrax> if you insist
 * persia counted seven
<Vantrax> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:17. The chair is Vantrax.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<lifeless> I'm tired. perhaps I count as 1/2.
 * freeflying will leave a little bit early
<ejat> lifeless: :)
 * elky hugs lifeless
<lifeless> OTOH theres lots of me, so perhaps I count as 2 :>
<Vantrax> is nasirkhan around?
<elky> lifeless, likewise here. 3 between us?
<Vantrax> ok, no nasir
<Vantrax> how about qzssyqa aka  Yun Qiang Su?
<happyaron> wzssyqa: ^
<wzssyqa> Vantrax:  i am here
<Vantrax> ahh yeah, my bad
<lifeless> elky: :>
<Vantrax> [TOPIC] wzssyqa aka Yun Qiang Su Membership App
<MootBot> New Topic:  wzssyqa aka Yun Qiang Su Membership App
<wzssyqa> i am a Graduate in LiaoNing Technology university
<wzssyqa> devote on translations and packages
<wzssyqa> I have translated something to zh_CN,and packaged several debian packages
<wzssyqa> over
<Vantrax> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YunQiangSu
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YunQiangSu
<Vantrax> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~wzssyqa
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~wzssyqa
<persia> wzssyqa: One of your testimonials mentions activity in the forums.  Is this the ubuntu.cn forums, or forums.ubuntu.com?
<wzssyqa> persia: forum.ubuntu.org.cn
<persia> What's your username there?
<wzssyqa> persia: as here,the speed of login in Ubuntu.com, is suck,so
<wzssyqa> persia: wzssyqa
<lifeless> wzssyqa: your wiki.ubuntu.com links - like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/how%20to%20launch%20to%20IRC - go nowhere
<wzssyqa> lifeless: oh.sorry,as the ftp of ubuntu.org.cn has damaged,i remove the link temp
<freeflying> wzssyqa: yes, seems those link on your wiki page break
<Vantrax> Destine: you here to cheer for wzssyqa/talk about his involvement in the china loco?
<wzssyqa> freeflying: they were in ftp.ubuntu.org.cn,now, it damaged
<freeflying> wzssyqa: ic
<Destine> Vantrax, yup, have a loook.
<wzssyqa> persia: now i will upload them somewhere
<Vantrax> Destine, was curious about his loco involvement, you didnt talk about that and from memory you are active in the lovo
<Vantrax> wzssyqa: how long have you been contributing to ubuntu?
<wzssyqa> Vantrax: about one year
<Destine> Vantrax, actually his main contribution is not in the field of loco but l10n.
<wzssyqa> now , i am a reviewer of gnome zh_CN team
<Vantrax> anyone have more questions?
<amachu> Vantrax: nope
<elky> Nope
<ejat> wzssyqa: did u involve with any ubuntu-ch activity?
<persia> ch?  cn?
<happyaron> cn
<Destine> cn
<ejat> cn
<ejat> sorry ..
<wzssyqa> ejat: i am mainterting a lug on my uninversity
<freeflying> wzssyqa: so you have lug in your school? did you get it added to chinalug?
<wzssyqa> ejat: as here is where that linux is not very family to people
<wzssyqa> ejat: there is some difficult ,but i will go on
<ejat> familiar?
<Destine> ejat, yes.
<Vantrax> anymore questions?
<wzssyqa> persia: i have upload my documents to http://people.ubuntu.com/~happyaron/wzssyqa/
 * happyaron it's in my people.ubuntu.com space, I sponsored him
 * persia may not be the only interested party
<happyaron> wzssyqa is now doing awesome job on GNOME zh_CN team as a translator as well as reviewer
 * Destine really good work.
<Vantrax> thanks for the input happyaron, Destine
<happyaron> :)
<Vantrax> okies lets get to it
<Vantrax> [VOTE] wzssyqa for ubuntu membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  wzssyqa for ubuntu membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<happyaron> well, some more input, he is actively participating in our LoCo forum
<lifeless> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from lifeless. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<happyaron> and mostly help on partitioning and ubuntu+1 discussions.
<lifeless> about half the bugs linked weren't followed up on so got closed because of that
<lifeless> I'm happy to see the translations and loco stuff
<happyaron> lifeless: you may check on l10n.gnome.org to see his contributions on translations
<persia> +1 : Good testimonials, nice documentation, long history (2+ years), wiki page could use more useful links to stuff though.
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<freeflying> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from freeflying. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<amachu> +1 from me too
<MootBot> +1 received from amachu. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<ejat> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ejat. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<piju> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from piju. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
<elky> piju, are you on the board?
<Vantrax> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 7
<lifeless> happyaron: upstream contributions are important too, but we don't generally count them towards Ubuntu membership ... otherwise all of GNOME and KDE would be members :>
<piju> elky, yes
<Vantrax> piju, not this one:P
<piju> yes. me
<Vantrax> name piju?
<happyaron> lifeless: well, translations on Launchpad for upstream strings are not encouraged
<persia> piju: You're on the agenda to become an Ubuntu membet, but you're not yet a member o the Board.
<amachu> i would second what lifeless say, still testimonials and other factors lead to my +1
<Vantrax> happyaron: we do take note of them, but they dont hold heavy weight.
<happyaron> Vantrax: :)
<piju> my name is mohamad faizul zulkifli
<lifeless> happyaron: we can discuss that after the applicants, if you wish.
<wzssyqa> lifeless: ok,why not all of upstream as ubuntu member? if have enough controibt ,and they wish?
<Vantrax> Still , your vote is successful wzssyqa welcome.
<elky> piju, being a prospective member of ubuntu doesn't give you Regional Membership Board voting privileges. That's a different group from plain members.
<Vantrax> wzssyqa: its a recognition of both contribution and community involvement
<happyaron> wzssyqa: anyway, congrats!
<lifeless> wzssyqa: if they contribute to Ubuntu, we're delighted to have them; but contributing to a different project is, well, contributing to a different project: its good for free software, its not particularly relevant to Ubuntu membership.
<piju> ok guys
<freeflying> happyaron: wzssyqa lets talk about that off meeting
<piju> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/piju
<persia> wzssyqa: I believe it is because the benefits of membership are designed to be most applicable to those directly contributing to Ubuntu, rather than to a separate project (which tends to have similar benefits available through similar processes)
<piju> http://9w2pju.blogspot.com
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://9w2pju.blogspot.com
<piju> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHamsNets
<piju> http://9w2pju.blogspot.com/search/label/ubuntu
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://9w2pju.blogspot.com/search/label/ubuntu
<Vantrax> [TOPIC] Piju ubuntu membership application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Piju ubuntu membership application
<piju> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHamsMembers
<piju> ok
<piju> my name is mohamad faizul zulkifli
<piju> and im from malaysia
<piju> currently working as gov servant
<piju> also a ham radio
<piju> and one of ubuntu-hams member
<piju> i wrote a lot about using ubuntu as a perfect shack for ham radio operator
<piju> reporting bugs for ubuntu-hams-devel
<piju> running echolink ubuntu-hams net
<piju> do you guys know what is ham radio ?
<lifeless> yes
<piju> also involve with ubuntu-my
<piju> more pictures on my facebook
<piju> and also at http://9w2pju.blogspot.com
<piju> discussion ubuntu for ham radio with sconklin everyday
<piju> also participating on translating for ubuntu-my and ubuntu manual
<piju> blogging about ubuntu since 2007
<Vantrax> nice choices for testimonials
<piju> http://piju.fakap.net
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piju.fakap.net
<freeflying> piju: how do you help new comers with your ham?
<freeflying> :)
<piju> freeflying, nice questions
<Vantrax> no one from the my loco tho, i can see you attend loco events
<ejat> Vantrax: yes .. piju always support ubuntu-my loco events
<piju> freeflying, first, i will tell them about ubuntu and then what ubuntu offers for ham radio
<ejat> u can see his pict
<piju> including their packages
<piju> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs574.snc3/31306_397319043669_761633669_3823741_7316607_n.jpghttp://9w2pju.blogspot.com/2010/06/malaysian-ubuntu-hams-at-lucid-party.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs574.snc3/31306_397319043669_761633669_3823741_7316607_n.jpghttp://9w2pju.blogspot.com/2010/06/malaysian-ubuntu-hams-at-lucid-party.html
<piju> sorry
<piju> http://9w2pju.blogspot.com/2010/06/malaysian-ubuntu-hams-at-lucid-party.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://9w2pju.blogspot.com/2010/06/malaysian-ubuntu-hams-at-lucid-party.html
<piju> i wrote how to use ubuntu for ham radio operator
<piju> on my blog
<piju> and i receive lots of email
<piju> asking me what is ubuntu all about
<freeflying> piju: cool
<piju> ok
<piju> what i am saying here is
<piju> there is so little young ppl who are interested in ham radio
<elky> The internet is so much shinier.
<ejat> piju also always helping answering question in #ubuntu-my
<piju> if you can see, lots of ham radio opensource developer in #hamradio who are using ubuntu
<Vantrax> I do hear its popular in in malaysia
<piju> but they dont even know about #ubuntu-hams
<ejat> Vantrax: yes it is ..
<piju> you know what, ppl said im old school
<piju> because using ham radio to contact my friends
<piju> in year 2010
<piju> "ham radio always work"
<piju> and ubuntu always be the best ham radio friends
<Vantrax> anyone here to cheer on piju or give a testimonal in person?
<ejat> Vantrax: o/
<piju> wait
<piju> check out http://9w2pju.blogspot.com/2010/05/ubuntu-hams-t-shirt-artwork-from-9w2pju.html
<Vantrax> anything particular you wanted to say ejat?
<Vantrax> I saw that piju, very cool
<piju> kamal who work at canonical sent me a ubuntu-hams round badge
<ejat> as i said before .. piju always supporting ubuntu-my loco activity since 2007
<lifeless> I find joey's comment interesting
<piju> ubuntu-hams is going hotter than before http://9w2pju.blogspot.com/2010/05/ubuntu-hams-session-notes-on-ubuntu.html
<piju> you know what, the first time i joined #ubuntu-hams, there is only 5,6 ppl
<ejat> lifeless: yeah .. blog posting n etc ..
<Vantrax> me too lifeless
<lifeless> postive and supporting, but also encouraging you to get involved in more of the actual direct support/creation/community around Ubuntu itself
<piju> im now thinking to make a class/unformal talk to ham radio
<piju> about ubuntu
<piju> what ubuntu offers in emergency communications
<lifeless> I'm willing to +1 here piju, as I like what you're doing, but I'd like to see more bridging of the two
<Vantrax> I would agree with joey, id like to see some more of your work make it to the wiki's and not just on your blog
<piju> id like to see my blog on planet.ubuntu.com
<Vantrax> Your doing good work tho, and i like the tack you are taking to combine your interests to spread ubuntu
<piju> why not ?
<piju> i can send morse code using ubuntu
<piju> communicate with ISS ?
<piju> have you all tried ?
<Vantrax> ISS?
<freeflying> piju: but you'd have more audience firstly :)
<Vantrax> oh the space station:P
<Vantrax> no... do they talk back?
<piju> do you know what is ISS ?
<piju> ham radio can talk to the crews
<piju> and also transmit a packet data for APRS
<Vantrax> that is very cool, spreading ubuntu in space eh
<piju> there is aprsd and xastir packages for ubuntu
<piju> just apt-cache search ham radio
<Vantrax> anyone have more questions for piju?
<ejat> agree ... piju but hopefully we can see your contribution to hams radio and to ubuntu in general :)
<piju> ok next question please
<piju> ejat, just wait.
<ejat> piju: ok .. ill kept your word :)
<Vantrax> If you promise to get your blog on ubuntu and start putting some of your guides into the wiki its a +1 from me too
<piju> ubuntu for morse code, building antennas, packet data, APRS, etc
<piju> ok
<Vantrax> It would be great to see a how to ubuntu ham etc on the wiki
<piju> just get your ham license
<piju> and ill see you on the air
<piju> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHamsNets
<piju> echolink is voip for ham radio
<piju> BPSK31 is packet data
<piju> just type and transmit
<Vantrax> any last questions?
<piju> gmfsk, fldigi can do this
<piju> any questions ?
<Vantrax> okies, running out of time so...
<Vantrax> [VOTE] Piju for Ubuntu Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Piju for Ubuntu Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<lifeless> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from lifeless. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<freeflying> =1
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<ejat> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ejat. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<elky> freeflying, you need to do that again, it doesn't count =
<amachu> +1 from, with a comment that the wiki needs more info as felt by others
<MootBot> +1 received from amachu. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Vantrax> and ejat's doesnt... afaik
<persia> +0 : Considerable work in a desreving area, but the UbuntuHams wiki space could use a lot more of this content
<MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Vantrax> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
<Vantrax> we are out of time:P congrats piju, welcome
<piju> thanks Vantrax
<ejat> congrate piju
<wzssyqa> thanks you all
<piju> see you all on the air soon
<piju> get your ham radio license now!
<Vantrax> lol
<Vantrax> if only I had time
<piju> send me your ubuntu screenshot using SSTV
<piju> ignore internet for a while
<piju> use the airwaves, and ionosphere!
<Vantrax> wzssyqa and piju you are added to ubuntu memebers, you can request your forum tag and cloak if you want em
<Vantrax> piju: you should be able to get started on getting your blog synched
<Vantrax> your ubuntu emails should be live in under 24hrs based on your ~name@ubuntu from launchpad
<Vantrax> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:03.
<Vantrax> thanks for coming guys
<nigelb> and persia does disappearing act again
<Vantrax> hes good at that:P
<piju> meeting finished ?
<piju> ok.time to on my radio.
<piju> bye
<wzssyqa> lifeless: hellp
<wzssyqa> lifeless: hello,i want to know,what should i do ,to be enough as an Ubuntu member?
<nigelb> wzssyqa: could you be more clear?
<ajmitch> wzssyqa: looks like you've been added to the LP team
<wzssyqa> nigelb: ajmitch i feel that what i do is not enough for ubuntu, i just want to know which work to do
<elky> wzssyqa, i think this discussion should move to #ubuntu-irc
<wzssyqa> elky: o ,sorry
<elky> Just so meeting logs aren't all mixed up with general discussion
<nigelb> elky: appologies.
<elky> wzssyqa, are you going to "/join #ubuntu-irc"?
<wzssyqa> elky: ok
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100622#preview
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100622#preview
<NCommander> davidm: ogra, dyfet ping?
<ogra> ??
 * ogra wonders if NCommander reads his gcal from time to time 
<NCommander>  oh crap
<ogra> :)
<NCommander> I'm an hour early
<ogra> morning :)
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:03.
 * NCommander goes back to sleep
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100622#preview
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100622#preview
<NCommander> GrueMaster: ogra dyfet davidm ping?
<GrueMaster> yep
<cooloney> NCommander: i am here
<davidm> NCommander, G'day
<ogra> moop
<NCommander> hey cooloney.
<mpoirier> NCommander: me too.
<mpoirier> full house this morning.
 * NCommander gives ogra coffee to turn that moop into something else
<NCommander> indeed
<NCommander> lets get right into it
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] davidm to ship mpoirier a beagle C4
<MootBot> New Topic:  davidm to ship mpoirier a beagle C4
<mpoirier> got the beagle board but USB port seems dead.
<mpoirier> ordered another one from Sparkfun.
<NCommander> [topic] davidm to ship mpoirier a XM board
<MootBot> New Topic:  davidm to ship mpoirier a XM board
<mpoirier> got the XM board.
<NCommander> excellent
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to talk to persia about IRC channels
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to talk to persia about IRC channels
 * NCommander suspects this is a c/o. ENOPERSIA
<ogra> right
<ogra> no idea why he's not around
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> ogra: his internet connection is down; as is his IRC proxies
 * NCommander talked to him yesterday
<ogra> ah, great
<NCommander> er, maybe not his internet, but something got mangled
<persia> my servers
<NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<NCommander> persia: ah, where did you come from?
 * NCommander didn't see you join
<ogra> NCommander, can you also add the WI chgart for the next milestone to the agenda ?
<davidm> I spoke with persia last night, he is home working
<NCommander> ogra: NP
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogra> (for today, next week its A3)
<NCommander> we're looking good on both charts overall
<ogra> well, we could look better :)
<ogra> hacking around in jasper for days stole a lot of my time
<NCommander> ogra: its not the usual "OMG, ONE WEEK TO RELEASE AND ITS ALL RED"
<ogra> but its fixed now
<persia> I don't actually expect to finish the jasper review by Thursday.
<persia> Probably next week: should that be retargeted?
<ogra> persia, then postpone your item
<persia> OK
<ogra> i'll do the same for the docs part
<NCommander> anything else to be brought up?
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier)
<NCommander> er
 * NCommander didn't mean to press enter
<mpoirier> submitted temporary fix for b594382 - daisy chain.
<NCommander> yay!
<ogra> \o/
<ogra> so we should have booting omap3 again :)
<mpoirier> b591941 - SD card is on hold until previous is resolved.
<ogra> could you also take a look at the XM issue ?
<mpoirier> yes, after these two bugs are resolved.
<ogra> bug 589624
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589624 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Maverick] omap flavour does not work on beagle XM board" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589624
<ogra> (if you type out the word "bug" you get a nice bot response btw ;) )
<ogra> how is the status on omap4 ?
<ogra> i saw an upload
<ogra> but no metapackage or anything yet
<mpoirier> lag is working on omap4 - should have touched base with him.
<mpoirier> will do for the next meeting.
<lag> I am not working on OMAP4
<ogra> well, we would need a kernel (including metapackage) by thursday
<lag> I have a board
<lag> And a bootable kernel
<lag> But I have not been actively working on it
 * cooloney lol 
<ogra> alpha release is coming and we are committed to release our first images by then
<davidm> Who is working on OMAP4?
<cooloney> ogra: rtg is working on the metapackage for ti-omap4 branch
<ogra> cooloney, great
<cooloney> davidm: i am working on it, but don't have board
<ogra> cooloney, has the kernel in the archive been tested
<NCommander> is the kernel in the archive Panda safe?
<lag> I am doing cooloney's testing
<cooloney> ogra: i think only sebjan from TI and lag test that
<cooloney> lag: thanks for the testing
<lag> His board by proxy
<ogra> great
<cooloney> and ti-omap4 branch was merged into our maverick kernel now
<ogra> i think u-boot needs an update, the current omap4 version only boots blaze atm
<cooloney> it is based on TI 2.6.34 omap4 release
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> will switch to .35 before kernel freeze
<cooloney> and TI will provide the .35 based omap4 branch at the mid of Aug
<ogra> right
<cooloney> sebjan told us that
<cooloney> and for lucid fsl-imx51
<ogra> NCommander, btw, was ndec officially invited to the meeting now ?
<ogra> lucid fsl ?
<cooloney> kernel was in the -proposed, and pitti asked for testing
<ogra> what do you update there ?
<NCommander> ogra: he was
<ogra> ok
<cooloney> GrueMaster: could you help on that?
<ogra> cooloney, yeah, thats for GrueMaster
<cooloney> bug #559065
<ogra> but i guess it will be covered in QA anyway
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 559065 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu) "ifconfig eth0 down will cause system hang after fec.c driver update" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/559065
<ogra> once that topic is up :)
<GrueMaster> I didn't see any updates or emails, but will test asap.
<NCommander> can I move on?
 * ogra saw a lot bug status changes last week
<ogra> move !
<cooloney> GrueMaster: yeah, i will email you soon
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<cooloney> yeah, i am done
<GrueMaster> Not much to report here.  I've ripped apart the hand made image ogra sent me last week as many ways as I possibly can.
<ogra> i'll have a new one later today for you :)
<ogra> finally with most bits working
<GrueMaster> I'm currently trying to hand-build my own images so I can get familiar with the tools and build process.
<GrueMaster> ok
<GrueMaster> All the bugs I was going to cover have been touched on, so, next.
<ogra> NCommander, ?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<NCommander> I smashed kdebase-workspace over the weekend to fix a large chunk of KDE FTBFS
<ogra> there is a lot of new stuff
<ogra> evo ...
<ogra> libbonoboui
<ogra> xscreensaver !
<NCommander> ogra: partial fallout from gobjection-inspector and a few others being broken :-/
<ogra> few other things ?
<davidm> dyfet, status on gobject-introspection?
<ogra> libgtkhtml-editor-dev: Depends: libgtkhtml-editor0
<NCommander> ogra: thought I saw s afe wlibraries in the list, but I'm kinda half awake ATM
<ogra> ^^^ evo
<NCommander> dyfet: ping?
<ogra> bonobo looks like a give-back
 * ogra tries that
<GrueMaster> You should post the link to the ftbs sheet.
<NCommander> I'll be looking at nursing the FTBFS list this week since basics for preinstalled images are done, and we need to have a happier archive for A2
<dyfet> Back
<davidm> dyfet, will be here in a moment
<ogra> ubuntu-artwork: Depends: light-themes <-- xscreensaver
<dyfet> I am still working on gobject-inspection
<ogra> we'll start building images tomorrow
<davidm> dyfet, do you understand what is going wrong?
<dyfet> I originally thought it was bison, because the source parser was producing invalid results
<ogra> did you talk to seb128 or didrocks ?
<dyfet> I think now it is something specific to gobject-inspection and gcc
<dyfet> and not the dependencies
<NCommander> dyfet: have you tried building with different GCC flags or other GCC versions?
<dyfet> Thats what I was starting on this morning
<dyfet> I noticed we have gcc-4.5 in Maverick, too...
<ogra> i dont think we default to it though
<dyfet> ogra: no we do not
<persia> We don't
<ogra> right
<NCommander> so anything else to bring up or can I move on?
<ogra> well, we need to get that fixed
<ogra> and a bunch of other FTBFS stuff too
 * ogra just gave back evo 
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra> well
<ogra> i'm behind on the publishing scripts review
<ogra> will finish that today
<ogra> jasper kheld me up a lot
<ogra> or rather vfat did
<NCommander> _\o/_
<ogra> but i just solved that bit before the meeting
<NCommander> ogra: so resizing works now?
<ogra> jasper MIR is still not done (i hope we manage that in time)
<ogra> resizing works fine on two SD cards i tried it on
<ogra> the partition table is clean before and after and the vfat stays bootable
<NCommander> ogra: maybe you should delgate the MIR to someone else
<ogra> i'm just doing a full image test before spinning a new one for GrueMaster to test
<ogra> NCommander, i'll ask asac once the code is ready
<ogra> i dont want to push for a MIR review for half finished code
<NCommander> ogra: probably worth to MIR now so we don't get ourselves in trouble down the road. YMMV
<asac> ++
<ogra> its MIRed since two weeks
<ogra> but i didnt subscribe the MIR team to it yet
<ogra> since i want the code done first
<ogra> the vfat issues held me up for about four days
<ogra> which is very unfortunate
<NCommander> :-/
<ogra> so given jasper gets in, the RT is processed for BuildLiveCD and i got the publishing scripts merged, we're ready to roll
<ogra> (modulo unknown bugs ... we never tested all bits together yet :) )
<NCommander> _\o/_ \o_ _o/ \o/!
<NCommander> ogra: well, we didn't break normal dailies with the d-cd merge. That's a good first sign
<ogra> i hope what comes out at the rear end will actually be what we expect :)
<NCommander> ogra: a pile of expections?
 * NCommander runs
<NCommander> anyway
<ogra> expections or exceptions ? :)
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
 * ogra likes to do exceptional work *g*
<NCommander> heh
 * NCommander thinks davidm had somethng he wanted to brin gup
<davidm> NCommander, nope I was interesting in FTBFS
<NCommander> ok
<NCommander> closing meeting in
<NCommander> 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:38.
<NCommander> woo
<jester-> hi
<soren> Um..
<soren> D
<soren> DMB meeting, anyone?
 * micahg is here :)
<persia> soren: Sounds good.
 * barry is lurking
 * mtaylor is also lurking
 * cnd o/
 * geser waves
 * menesis waiting
 * tumbleweed is kind of hoping the meeting will happen - third time lucky? :)
<geser> tumbleweed: one DMB member missing to reach quorum
<dholbach> soren: you could try pinging cody-somerville, cjwatson and stgraber :)
<geser> dholbach: cjwatson and stgraber said that they are absent
<dholbach> ah, I'll better shut up then :)
<geser> waiting on nixternal or cody-somerville
<persia> Two of those people already sent apologies though, which reduces the chances of that working perfectly :)
 * cody-somerville is on the phone unfortunately. :(
<cjwatson> I can possibly manage it, this is one hour later than I'd thought
<micahg> the Fridge is off 1 hr for the summer :)
<cjwatson> I won't be enormously active but can be present
<nixternal> hola
<geser> soren: will you chair?
<cjwatson> oh good, I'd prefer if I could sit out for today, since nixternal's here
<nixternal> don't know how long I can stay around...i am on battery on my netbook and my power cord is nowhere to be found right now
<geser> nixternal: how long will your battery last?
<soren> geser: I'd rather not. I'm expecting a phone call :(
<nixternal> probably an hour...waiting for a new computer, as I am stuck with a netbook for the past week...my puters didn't make it through a microburst/tornado, except for my netbook, only because it was on me the night of the storm and i wasn't around :)
<nixternal> if my battery dies I can switch over to my droid if need be
<geser> cjwatson: did Rodrigo Moya did contact you about his tomboy PPU upload rights?
<cjwatson> I have no unprocessed mail from him
<cjwatson> was this an action from a previous meeting?
<cjwatson> can somebody who's not me please chair and start the meeting
<geser> this came up today in #ubuntu-desktop
<cjwatson> is he supposed to have tomboy upload rights?
<cjwatson> I'd appreciate a reference to meeting minutes if so
<geser> cjwatson: will dig it up, we didn't properly finish his deferred votes
<geser> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:16. The chair is geser.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<geser> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of previous action items
<geser> * cjwatson to create ubuntu-kernel-uploaders team owned by the DMB that will provide upload permissions to Ubuntu kernel packages
<cjwatson> not done, sorry
<geser> ok, will leave it on the agenda then
<geser> * Cody to write an e-mail to the list concerning the layout/format of the DMB meeting - membership first
<geser> seems to not happened either, don't remember an email about it
 * micahg has another item that should have been on there (Create Mozilla Package Set)
<geser> cjwatson: ^^ this is also still pending?
<cjwatson> >>> mozilla = lp.packagesets.new(name='mozilla', distroseries=maverick, description='Packages related to Mozilla', owner=techboard)
<cjwatson> does anyone have a reference to the meeting in which the mozilla set was approved?
<cjwatson> ah, 2010-05-25
<geser> cjwatson: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/25/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t17:16
<micahg> should I change the owner of the Mozilla uploader team to the DMB now?
<geser> persia: do you have time to write the minutes for that DMB meeting?
<persia> Oops.  Yeah.  I'll publish them in 10-12 hours.
<geser> thanks
<cjwatson> hm, that should be DMB not TB I think
<geser> we voted on "Creation of a Mozilla Package set with a set of developers to be administered by the DMB"
<geser> has somebody else any other pending action items?
<cjwatson> we did not vote to actually add any developers to that set
<persia> Right.  The set of developers who can upload to the mozilla packageset is currently null.
<geser> didn't the proposal for that package set mentioned to "initialize" it with ~ubuntu-mozilla-uploaders?
<cjwatson> the meeting explicitly separated micahg's developer status from the set, but not the other uploaders
 * micahg just removed himself from the team and set DMB as owner
<geser> do we want to vote on this?
<persia> Let's, quickly.
<geser> [VOTE] Add Alexander Sack (asac), Chris Coulson (chrisccoulson) and Fabien Tassin (fta) as uploaders to the Mozilla Package set
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Add Alexander Sack (asac), Chris Coulson (chrisccoulson) and Fabien Tassin (fta) as uploaders to the Mozilla Package set.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> nixternal?
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<geser> [ENDVOTE]
<nixternal> sorry, was looking for my power cord :)
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<cjwatson> implemented
<persia> Just for confirmation, can we implement that using ~ubuntu-mozilla-uploaders, for ease of administration?
<cjwatson> argh
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> done (modulo response time)
<persia> cjwatson: Sorry to make more work for you: the idea is to reduce your workload in the future :)
<cjwatson> yeah
<geser> next topic?
<cjwatson> please
<geser> [TOPIC] Administrative Matters
<MootBot> New Topic:  Administrative Matters
<geser> * Meeting Structure
<geser> * Voting Procedures
<geser> I remember we voted on parts of it in the last meeting
<geser> and wanted to continue this per mail
<persia> Let's ignore those until I belatedly summarise the current state of affairs, and we have some list discussion.
<geser> ok
<geser> then applications next
<geser> who knows which application is first?
<nixternal> core-dev?
<persia> tumbleweed is the oldest outstanding, if I'm reading ?action=info correctly
<geser> As Robert Ancell (core-dev application) is not here (see also his mail on devel-permissions) I assume we can do that one
<geser> [TOPIC] MOTU application: Stefano Rivera
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU application: Stefano Rivera
 * tumbleweed waves
<geser> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StefanoRivera/MOTUApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StefanoRivera/MOTUApplication
<geser> nobody has any questions? that's unusual
<highvoltage> ooh, I'm just in time!
<tumbleweed> highvoltage: oh, thanks
<highvoltage> I just want to say that tumbleweed is awesome and he's way too modest!
<tumbleweed> lol
<nixternal> tumbleweed: you say that you have begun work on improving upstream patches. what work have you begun and is it helping (yet?)?
<highvoltage> I reviewed some of tumbleweed's pacakges in REVU too and he was really quick with fixing minor issues, but he ended up getting it in Debian really well so we didn't upload those specific packages (use it / don't use it)
<tumbleweed> nixternal: I've come across a handful of packages where Ubuntu has diverged quite a bit from debian. I forward those up to debian or upstream
<tumbleweed> nixternal: so far, fpm maintainer accepted all the ubuntu patches (with modifications)
<tumbleweed> and quite a few others are in debian bugs now. Can't remember many more details there
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-June/030936.html might be good if you want a challenge!
<nixternal> tumbleweed: groovy...sounds like a good start
<tumbleweed> cjwatson: yeah, I've seen one or two of those and run screaming
<nixternal> yeah, just looking at that list makes me cringe a bit
 * micahg already claimed 3 :)
<geser> any other questions? persia? soren?
 * persia doesn't have any
<nixternal> seeing as I can't really build packages on my netbook without jumping out of a window, I am down right now. looks like my new puter will be here tomorrow so I can start dev'ing again...I have been itching...try building some c++ or java code on a netbook...so not fun!
<soren> geser: nope
<geser> [VOTE] Should Stefano Rivera become MOTU?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should Stefano Rivera become MOTU?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<geser> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<highvoltage> tumbleweed: congrats and welcome to MOTU!
<tumbleweed> thanks everyone :)
<geser> tumbleweed: congrats
<nixternal> tumbleweed: congrats and welcome!
<geser> who is next? (I remember we changed the order but not to what order)
<nixternal> core-dev, motu, ppu, contribs?
<persia> I don't think we decided the order.  barry is next by age, BlackZ is next by category
<barry> persia: ouch.  hopefully that means by age of page edit :)
<persia> barry: Yes
<geser> [TOPIC] PPU application: Barry Warsaw
<MootBot> New Topic:  PPU application: Barry Warsaw
<geser> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication
 * persia remains uncomfortable approving PPU applications with no changelog entries
 * soren has a hard stop coming up :(
<geser> barry: I see that you have only some sponsored uploads for the packages you apply for. Did someone else upload the others for you?
<barry> geser: mostly mvo
<cjwatson> I don't mind approving PPU applications for which there've been uploads in the same general category (as appears to be the case here).
<nixternal> ditto
<mvo> (just for the record I'm here if there are any questions)
<geser> any questions?
<nixternal> none here
<cjwatson> nope
 * soren has to run
<geser> [VOTE] Grant Barry Warsaw upload rights for computer-janitor, python-lazr.restful, python-lazr.restfulclient, python-argparse, python-virtualenv, python-flufl.enum, python-flufl.i18n
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Grant Barry Warsaw upload rights for computer-janitor, python-lazr.restful, python-lazr.restfulclient, python-argparse, python-virtualenv, python-flufl.enum, python-flufl.i18n.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<persia> +0 : The work is good, but I'd like to see at least one sponsored upload for each package for a PPU application.
<MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> I've got a +1 from soren for barry
<geser> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
<persia> barry: Congratulations
<nixternal> barry: congrats and welcome!
<mvo> congrats barry
<barry> awesome, thanks!  persia: nod
<geser> as we don't have any order anymore: who is here and wants next?
 * oubiwann high-fives barry 
 * micahg is here :)
<BlackZ> \o
<cnd> o/
 * mtaylor is here
 * menesis is here
<persia> BlackZ is next by both age and category
<geser> ok
<cjwatson> do we have quorum any more?
<geser> geser, persia, nixternal and cjwatson = 4
<cjwatson> barry: there are no python-flufl.enum or python-flufl.i18n packages in the archive, so I don't think I am technically able to grant permissions for those right now
<cjwatson> barry: can you ping me when those are in the archive (via sponsorship)?
<cjwatson> and remind me of the date of today's meeting
<persia> BlackZ: your application isn't quite complete: if you're not comfortable sharing what you like least about Ubuntu, could you share what you think is most important to improve?
<geser> [TOPIC] Universe contributor application: Lorenzo De Liso
<barry> cjwatson: absolutely.  thanks
<MootBot> New Topic:  Universe contributor application: Lorenzo De Liso
<geser> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LorenzoDeLiso/UniverseContributorApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LorenzoDeLiso/UniverseContributorApplication
<cjwatson> barry: (the remainder are active now)
<BlackZ> persia: I think we should improve the relationship with the debian developers
<BlackZ> and get the work in debian directly, that would provide more benefits
<BlackZ> (I mean for new packages)
<barry> cjwatson: thanks!  mvo will be happy :)
<BlackZ> and there's not a thing that I don't like in ubuntu (as far)
<BlackZ> that's the reason why I admitted it :)
<persia> BlackZ: Any specific suggestions on how we can do that?  Sometimes we run into issues with NEW delays or with developers who don't have hardware handy to test in Debian prior to upload.
<BlackZ> persia: the first way for new contributors would be mentors.debian.net (that's the way which I'm following too)
<BlackZ> there's a lot of documentation that can really help
<geser> BlackZ: is the documentation still up-to-date or does it need some work?
<BlackZ> geser: I think it needs some work
<BlackZ> someone could feel themselves rejected for the reason "nobody wants to see my packages"
<BlackZ> but it's not -- we have our own skills also in the debian packaging
<BlackZ> e.g. I'd prefer python and C++ application and avoid all java stuff
<BlackZ> s/application/applications
<BlackZ> (EOF)
<geser> any more questions?
 * persia is done
<geser> [VOTE] Should Lorenzo De Liso become Universe Contributor?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should Lorenzo De Liso become Universe Contributor?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<persia> BlackZ: Congratulations!
<BlackZ> thanks all
<nixternal> BlackZ: congrats and welcome!
<geser> persia: who is next? menesis or mtaylor?
<persia> mtaylor, I think.
 * mtaylor votes for mtaylor of course
<persia> But I don't see menesis on the info page, which confuses me
<geser> persia: edit #63
 * menesis is Gediminas Paulauskas
<geser> I add him as he only mailed his application short before a past DMB meeting and I added him for the meeting after that
<persia> menesis: Right, but your edit seems subsumed somewhere in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda?action=info :(
<persia> geser: Ah, then menesis is next (rev=63 vs 65)
<geser> [TOPIC] PPU application: Gediminas Paulauskas
<MootBot> New Topic:  PPU application: Gediminas Paulauskas
<geser> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GediminasPaulauskas/MyApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GediminasPaulauskas/MyApplication
<highvoltage> ooh, I reviewed a bunch of menesis' packages before as well. he's been doing a real good job with the Zope packages over the Lucid cycle
<persia> menesis: Do you expect the set of people maintaining Zope in Ubuntu to grow over time, or just be you?
<geser> menesis: how many from the packages on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GediminasPaulauskas/Packages are currently in Ubuntu?
<menesis> I hope it will be more people
<nixternal> interesting...there is a local company here in chicago who do zope dev work and installs for companies, and they said Ubuntu has great packages...this was just last week at a tech conference...pretty groovy
<mhall119> must be a recent change, I should zope packages on Ubuntu had been a problem
<mhall119> oops, in the middle of a meeting, sorry for interrupting
<menesis> nixternal: it could be true a few years ago, and that's about zope2.10, that has since been removed from Debian
<nixternal> Contextual is the name of the company
<nixternal> so he was more than likely blowing smoke up my rear to get rid of me as he probably didn't want to talk to me :D
<menesis> current zope2 and plone are not packaged at all, and that's not what I work on.
<menesis> I work on SchoolTool and Zope 3
<nixternal> schooltool ftw. you chat with the edubuntu devs?
<menesis> geser: let me count.
<nixternal> I would know this if my IRC server was up and running and I wasn't afk for a couple of weeks due to hardware problems
<menesis> yes I have been at UDS and talked with some people from edubuntu
<nixternal> awesome
<cjwatson> FWIW we can only grant upload privileges at the moment for packages currently in Ubuntu
<cjwatson> (just so you know)
<menesis> Yes, dholbach warned me that might be hard
<geser> menesis: a rough count is enough, I don't need an exact count
<menesis> but, if I were to upload all those packages, it is too much work and too little interest to file needs-packaging bugs and upload to REVU every single package
<cjwatson> it's OK to ask for permission in advance, we can just only actually turn it on once they're in the archive
<persia> menesis: You don't need to upload to REVU: it's just a handy tool to enable peer-review, which we encourage for all new packages (whether one has upload rights or not).
<cjwatson> that last step won't require a meeting to approve it though
<menesis> geser: 20-30
<persia> If the packages are available for review somewhere else, that works too.
<geser> any other questions?
<menesis> persia: they are available in schooltool ppa, is that acceptable?
<menesis> i.e. I upload a new package to the PPA, someone sponsors it, after it enters the archive, the package is added to the set
<persia> menesis: PPAs are often used: some folk prefer REVU for comments and version overwriting, but anywhere works, really.
<menesis> good.
 * persia asked all the questions at UDS.
<persia> I would like to exclude the last category (dependencies) from the set though, unless someone has a very strong argument for inclusion.
<cjwatson> agreed
<menesis> two packagesets should be created I think, pkg-zope-uploaders and schooltool-uploaders.
<menesis> well, schooltool is just me, while zope is of interest to more people
<geser> persia: "van.pydeb" should stay in the list?
<menesis> persia: yes, Dependencies are already in archive, I had some problems with them, but I'm ok not having rights for them
<persia> Probably, as it's important mostly for Zope, and has been troublesome in the past.  I just don't want to go all the way down the stack (the last category, plus the recursive dependencies thereof)
<cjwatson> I'm OK with van.pydeb being included together with this; I don't think it's widely used elsewhere, is it?
<menesis> yes, please, van.pydeb is a build dependency of all packages. a tool created by Brian Sutherland specifically to package zope packages.
<menesis> it may be useful to any python package with many dependencies, though
<cjwatson> so I think it would be fine to have a zope packageset incorporating the Zope, Zope Community, and Python Packaging sections, and a schooltool packageset for the rest
<cjwatson> excluding the Dependencies section
<geser> [VOTE] Grant Gediminas Paulauskas upload rights for the packages listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GediminasPaulauskas/Packages (rev #5) from the sections "Zope", "Zope Community", "SchoolTool" and "Python Packaging"
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Grant Gediminas Paulauskas upload rights for the packages listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GediminasPaulauskas/Packages (rev #5) from the sections "Zope", "Zope Community", "SchoolTool" and "Python Packaging".
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1 - I'd like to implement that grant by way of two packagesets as suggested above
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1 : assuming implementation as cjwatson described
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> cjwatson: 47 packages have python-van.pydeb in Build-Depends
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
 * persia is running out of stamina, and only has time for one more
<cjwatson> geser: right, and they're practically all zope.*
<cjwatson> please give me an action to do the packagesets here, it will take a while to set up
 * cnd is still here :)
 * micahg is still here
<menesis> I can generate a list of packages already in maverick, I have a tool for that
 * mtaylor is still here
<cjwatson> menesis: so do I :)
<geser> [ACTION] cjwatson create a zope packageset incorporating the Zope, Zope Community, and Python Packaging sections, and a schooltool packageset for the SchoolTool section
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson create a zope packageset incorporating the Zope, Zope Community, and Python Packaging sections, and a schooltool packageset for the SchoolTool section
<geser> one last application for today (we are nearing 2h duration)
<geser> [TOPIC] PPU application: Monty Taylor
<MootBot> New Topic:  PPU application: Monty Taylor
<geser> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MontyTaylor/PerPackageUploaderApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MontyTaylor/PerPackageUploaderApplication
<persia> mtaylor: Could you expand on your plans for the future?
<mtaylor> persia: sure. currently I'm mainly focused on the things where I'm also upstream I'd love to eventually become a MOTU
<mtaylor> I'd also be interested in working on some meta-projects - like working on packaging process or tooling
<mtaylor> and I'll most likely be involved in some way or another with ongoing server/cloud discussions and planning
<mtaylor> EOF
<persia> I don't think we can approve the request for haildb today (or I'm failing to find the package due to the hour), and I'll overlook my regular opposition regarding pandora-build in the interests of not forcing lifeless to purchase a fish.
<mtaylor> :)
<mtaylor> yeah- haildb was just on the todo list. that's certainly fine by me
<geser> any other questions?
 * cjwatson idly notes that drizzle fails to build everywhere but amd64
<mtaylor> yeah- working on that
<cjwatson> was wondering whether or not it was deliberate :)
<cjwatson> ok, no questions
<mtaylor> heh
<geser> [VOTE] Grant Monty Taylor upload rights for drizzle, gearmand, libdrizzle, libinnodb, libmemcached, python-drizzle and pandora-build?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Grant Monty Taylor upload rights for drizzle, gearmand, libdrizzle, libinnodb, libmemcached, python-drizzle and pandora-build?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> I've got a +1 from soren for mtaylor
<geser> nixternal: still enough power for a vote?
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nixternal> haha, yeah, found my power cord...hiding under my bed :)
<mtaylor> thanks everybody!
<nixternal> mtaylor: congrats and welcome!
<bjf> can we start our meeting?
<geser> micahg and cnd: you will be first on the next meeting, sorry
<micahg> geser: ok, thanks
<cnd> geser: sounds good
<bjf> #startmeeting
<geser> we lost quorum anyways
<MootBot> bjf, There is already a meeting in progress.
<cjwatson> mtaylor: that's active for you now
<menesis> cjwatson: I have attached a list of existing zope packages to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GediminasPaulauskas/Packages?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=zope_packages_in_maverick.txt
<geser> #endmeeting
<JFo> o/
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:02.
<cjwatson> menesis: thanks
<bjf> #startmeeting
<cking> o/ here
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mtaylor> cjwatson: thanks!
<apw> o/
<lag>                  |//
<lag>                 (o o)
<lag> +---------oOO----(_)-------------------+
<lag> |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
<lag> |~~~~~~ Â¤  Hello Kernel Team  Â¤ ~~~~~~~|
<lag> |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
 * ogasawara waves
<lag> +--------------------oOO---------------+
<lag>                    |__|__|
<lag>                     || ||
<lag>                    ooO Ooo
 * lag giggles
 * apw slaps lag
<sconklin> here
<jjohansen> \o
<mpoirier> present
 * pgraner is here 0/
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open action item: manjo to send a patch with test info
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open action item: manjo to send a patch with test info
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open action item: jfo to put out a CFT on new firewire stack
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open action item: jfo to put out a CFT on new firewire stack
<JFo> that is holding for manjo's test kernel
<JFo> it will likely land in Alpha3
<JFo> it is also tracked in the firewire blueprint
<JFo> ..
<apw> manjo is travelling
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics: (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics: (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (3 bugs, 9 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (17 (down 12)) ====
<JFo>  * 2 linux kernel bugs (down 8)
<JFo>  * 2 linux-ti-omap bugs
<JFo>  * 1 linux-meta-ti-omap bug
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (86 across all packages (up 3)) ====
<JFo>  * 7 linux kernel bugs (down 10)
<JFo>  * 4 linux-ti-omap bugs155301
<JFo>  * 1 linux-meta-ti-omap bug
<JFo> === Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 13 blueprints
<JFo> *** NOTE: This listing includes HWE Blueprints***
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:111 (down 6 from last week) ====
<JFo>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on
<JFo>  * Breakdown by status:
<JFo>    http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> no progress from last week.  Doing the testing now
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-firewire-stack (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-firewire-stack
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-firewire-stack (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-firewire-stack
<bjf> not here
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-misc (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-misc
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-misc (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-misc
<apw> The debian commonisation is progressing well, Lucid and Maverick are both applied.  Karmic is still pending approval.  The TI-OMAP4 preliminary kernel has now been created and pushed to the repository.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<tgardner> Uploaded Ubuntu-lts-2.6.35-5.6 this morning to the kernel-ppa at http://ppa.launchpad.net/kernel-ppa/ppa/ubuntu.
<tgardner> Submitted upstream patch to deprecate a netfilter config option CONFIG_NF_CT_ACCT which will
<tgardner> have an impact on Lucid userspace when the 11.04 kernel is backported.
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<jjohansen> Ported over the latest .34 Xen patchset, it currently has some issues, so we will stay with Lucid EC2 kernel until they are resolved.
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-tracing-support (cnd)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-tracing-support
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-tracing-support (cnd)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-tracing-support
<cnd> trace-cmd and kernelshark have been uploaded as of 2 hrs ago, feel free to give it a spin! Our version of perf probe now also supports the new -s option for specifying the source directory. This blueprint is pretty much fulfilled in terms of development. JFo has a task for looking at arsenal scripting responses for ftraceable bugs, but that's all.
<cnd> ..
 * JFo updates his tasks
<JFo> ..
<bjf> did that get onto the arsenal wiki page?
<JFo> it has not yet
<JFo> I will add it
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review
<ogasawara> 2 of the usb sauce patches I pushed upstream to remove duplicate id's
<ogasawara> are now in gregkh-2.6 tree.  Per feedback on linux-wireless ml, I fixed
<ogasawara> up and resent the p54usb patch to comment out a duplicate id.  I also
<ogasawara> resent the ipw2200 enable led by default patch with TJ's official SOB.
<ogasawara> These last two are still pending acceptance.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-union-mounts (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-union-mounts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-union-mounts (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-union-mounts
<apw> The union mounts patches have been revised and are now at 2.6.34, however they are looking to be still undergoing heavy churn and review.  I do not see them being ready for our use within the timescales required.
<apw> we should probabally consider assuming it will not make it.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (jfo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (jfo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<JFo>  * apw and I will be reworking the Triage section of the wiki. I'll be adding a page for the BugDays and moving over some relevant information from the old ones, but generally leaving legacy information there.
<JFo>  * The forum moderators are excited to be helping us address kernel related forum topics as well as bugs filed due to comments in the forums. More to come on this
<JFo>  * I've sent out an initial inquiry out to gauge the interest in the proposed kernel triage summit. So far the response has been immensely positive. the X community is involved and it seems that there is a great deal of interest in the classes on specific subsystems. I also sent out a call for experts to address some of the subsystems that have a separate component outside the kernel such as X and audio specifically. I'll send out some more specif
<JFo> ic e-mails as time goes on to gather subject experts for the classes.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<apw> The initargs patches have now been tested, updated and pushed to the Maverick kernels.  The ureadahead patches remain untested.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<cking> Changes to Firmware Test Suite this week:
<cking>  Add in heurstic driven advice when detecting errors (lots of textual help)
<cking>  Lots of code tidy up (fix memory leaks, func return values), tested with valgrind
<cking>  Add in generic CPU identification code
<cking>  Automate debian packaging from git repo
<cking>  Put in PPA http://ppa.launchpad.net/firmware-testing-team/ppa-firmware-test-suite
<cking>  Scan ~2870 kernel logs from LP, extract errors, tune klog scanner to detect these errors.
<cking>  Regex pattern matching on log scanning (slower, more flexible though)
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We just uploaded the linux-2.6.35-5.6 kernel yesterday.  This primarily
<ogasawara> contains kernel config changes, so please test.
<ogasawara> Alpha 2 is Thurs July 1 (ie ~1week from today).  You should be
<ogasawara> finalizing any work items you have or pushing them out to Alpha3 if
<ogasawara> they're not Alpha2 release critical.  Note that we're currently above
<ogasawara> the trend line in our Alpha 2 burn down chart so get those items closed
<ogasawara> or moved asap:
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> Also, if you have any patches which you want to land in the Alpha2
<ogasawara> kernel, they need to be sent to the kernel-team ml and have garnered
<ogasawara> the appropriate Ack's *before* this Fri, June 25.  I plan to upload
<ogasawara> our final Alpha2 kernel Thursday afternoon/Friday morning PST (UTC-7).
<ogasawara> ..
 * tgardner hears the whip crack
<ogasawara> heh
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (lag)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (lag)
<lag> Marvel (mvl-dove) :
<lag>   mvl-dove branch in lucid has been updated to sync with the latest Marvell
<lag>   Dove LSP 5.2.1 (mostly fixes), as well as one additional fix to the resume
<lag>   failure from hibernation.
<lag> Freescale (fsl-imx51):
<lag>   Nothing new this week; however, cooloney indicates that smb may have completed
<lag>   some work to upload the kernel to -proposed.
<lag> Texas Instruments (ti-omap):
<lag>   A new topic branch named ti-omap4 was merged into Maverick. It is based on TI
<lag>   2.6.34 omap4 kernel tree. rtg also helped to pull the branch and sync the Debian
<lag>   packaging stuff with our Maverick master branch. TI said they will provide a
<lag>   2.6.35-rc based omap4 tree to our Maverick in the middle of Aug.
<lag> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<bjf> Maybe it helps to add the input. Doh!
<bjf> Hardy:       2.6.24-28.70  (security)
<bjf>              2.6.24-28.71  (proposed)[ 4]  0 / 1 verifications done
<bjf> Jaunty:      2.6.28-19.61  (security)
<bjf> Karmic:      2.6.31-22.60  (security)
<bjf>              2.6.31-22.61  (waiting for approval)
<bjf>  - mvl-dove  2.6.31-214.28 (security)
<bjf>              2.6.31-214.29 (waiting for approval)
<bjf>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-112.28 (security)
<bjf>              2.6.31-112.29 (waiting for approval)
<bjf>  - ec2       2.6.31-307.15 (security)
<bjf>              2.6.31-307.16 (waiting for approval)
<bjf> Lucid:       2.6.32-22.36  (security)
<bjf>              2.6.32-23.37  (proposed)[11] 14/39 verifications done (+ 6)
<bjf>  - LBM       2.6.32-23.37  (proposed)[ 8]  3/ 3 verifications done (+ 2)
<bjf>  - mvl-dove  2.6.32-205.18 (security)
<bjf>              2.6.32-206.19 (proposed)[ 4] 12/41 verifications done (+12)
<bjf>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-608.14 (security)
<bjf>              2.6.31-608.15 (proposed)[ 4]  2/ 4 verifications done (+ 2)
<bjf>  - ti-omap   2.6.33-501.7  (security)
<bjf>              2.6.33-502.8  (proposed)[ 4]  0/ 4 verifications done
<bjf>  - qcm-msm   2.6.31-802.4  (security)
<bjf>              2.6.31-802.5  (proposed)[ 4]  1/ 5 verifications done (+ 1)
<bjf>  - ec2       2.6.32-306.11 (security)
<bjf>              2.6.32-307.12 (proposed)[ 4] 12/38 verifications done (+12)
<bjf> For the various ARM topic branches, people with testing HW need to make sure
<bjf> that beside of generic boot tests, they verify their specific bugs:
<bjf>  * mvl-dove
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/509006
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 509006 in linux-mvl-dove (Ubuntu) "[dove] hibernation failed to resume" [High,Confirmed]
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/576257
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 576257 in linux-mvl-dove (Ubuntu Maverick) "[dove] BSP update for LSP 5.1.1" [Undecided,Triaged]
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/591249
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 591249 in linux-mvl-dove (Ubuntu Maverick) "[dove] BSP update for 5.2.1" [Undecided,Triaged]
<bjf>  * fsl-imx51
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/567157
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 567157 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu Maverick) "regulators enabled at boot and also print error messages at boot." [High,In progress]
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/575558
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/559065
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 575558 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu Maverick) "kernel panic when set mac address of FEC" [High,New]
<bjf>  * ti-omap
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 559065 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu) "ifconfig eth0 down will cause system hang after fec.c driver update" [High,In progress]
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/584920
<bjf>    * BugLink: http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/566238
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 584920 in linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu Maverick) "netinstall fails, it has no network driver for moschip" [Medium,Fix committed]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 566238 in linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu Lucid) "wlan0 "Interface doesn't support scanning." -- CONFIG_CFG80211_WEXT is not set" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<bjf>  * ec2 has no specific changes
<smb-nx> Yo
<smb-nx> Ta
<smb-nx> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo> 28 Maverick Bugs (up 5)
<JFo> 980 Lucid Bugs (up 30)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo>   * 12 maverick bugs (up 4)
<JFo>   * 223 lucid bugs (no change: to be converted to regression-release)
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<tgardner> smbwhat is linux-ti-omap? omap3 is in the master branch.
<JFo>   * 34 lucid bugs (up 4)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 4 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 hardy bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 142 lucid bugs (up 6)
<JFo>   * 46 karmic bugs (down 2)
<JFo>   * 19 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 1 lucid bug (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<smb-nx> tgardner: omap4 afaik
<apw> tgardner, ti-omap is that not in lucid ?
<tgardner> its linux-ti-omap4 then
<tgardner> apw, the status was referring to Maverick
<apw> those bugs are on linux-ti-omap though in the list
<smb-nx> No lucod
<apw> tgardner, smb no touchey maverick
<tgardner>  linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu Maverick)
<smb-nx> Exactly
<tgardner> it ain't a package
<apw> hrm that got to be user error doesn't it, a nomination against the wrong release
<tgardner> ..
<apw> ..
<smb-nx> We have a linux ti omap plg in luid
<tgardner> yes
<smb-nx> .
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Today's bug day will be focusing on working Confirmed bugs and getting them to either Incomplete, by way of testing or information requests, or Triaged based on the completeness of the bug. My goal is to work through all of the Confirmed bugs to get them in the correct state.
<JFo> The Team Bug Days will continue to be the two half days on Friday and Monday. Please provide me feedback on these as you have it.
<JFo> Next week's bug day will be two-fold. On the one hand, we will change the remaining lucid regression-potential bugs to regression release. On the other hand, we will be reviewing the incorrectly labeled new bugs that need to be some other status based on either response by the bug reporter or the inclusion of requested logging.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> o/
<bjf> apw, go
<apw> just a reminder that we are all meant to be helping with the wiki gardening effort ... this needs to be basically complete by the end of the platform sprint
<apw> there is a long todo of small items people can help out with
<apw> ..
<pgraner> for the date & time challenged that is 23 Jul
<sconklin> link to todo?
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/WikiToDo
<apw> ogasawara, thans
<apw> ks
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:27.
<JFo> thanks bjf
<ogasawara> apw: we should maybe throw that on the misc spec and hand out specific tasks to people?
<kamal> thanks bjf
 * tgardner likes taht idea better
<apw> ogasawara, yeah how does this align with A-3 probabally pretty closely
<cking> yep
<JFo> ogasawara, tgardner do you think it useful to have a wiki gardening day? :)
<tgardner> JFo, we're going to at the sprint forsure
<JFo> oh indeed
<JFo> but I was thinking in addition to specific tasks
<JFo> so that there was a day when some of us were focused on it
<tgardner> I think if folks are assigned certain pages, then it'll likley get done in time.
<JFo> k
 * apw personally thinks the 30mins after you start work, when you are slow and in need of coffee is a perfect time
 * tgardner thinks apw shouw make the assignments since he's quite familiar with the current wiki
<cking> yeah, like when you have a gazillion emails waiting that need urgent attention ;-)
<apw> cking, but you are still too stupid due to lack of caffine to understand them
<JFo> heh
<cking> heh
<Daviey> \o
<ccheney> hi
<ttx> o/
<jiboumans_> o/
 * Daviey wonders if the chair is him or hallyn (agenda says hallyn, but i thought it was me)
<jiboumans_> at velocity, but lurking
<sommer> o//
<hallyn> i thought it was Daviey too
<ttx> Daviey: jiboumans said scribe=chair
 * hallyn taking next week
 * ttx checks again
 * Daviey takes it, if that makes it easier
<ttx> "Starting next week, we'll have a rotating chair for the
<ttx> IRC meeting. The chair will also scribe the meeting and
<ttx> send out the minutes/update the blog etc.
<ttx> "
<Daviey> hmm
<Daviey> that means it's not me
<ttx> Daviey: so if you take it, you write meeting minutes again :)
<Daviey> <-- scribe laste week
<ttx> hallyn: so it's your turn :)
 * ttx can chair if you prefer
<Daviey> (i don't mind being chair, but would rather not scribe 2 weeks in a row)
<zul> afternoon
<hallyn> sorry, that's why i asked yesterday - i can try today, but i did not prepare and am not familiar with agenda
 * hallyn looking right now...
<Daviey> hallyn: If i chair this, wanna scribe?
<ttx> Daviey: ok, go.
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:03. The chair is Daviey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<smoser> o/
<hallyn> k
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Approve last weeks minutes as true and accurate
<MootBot> New Topic:  Approve last weeks minutes as true and accurate
<Daviey> [VOTE] last weeks minutes as true and accurate?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  last weeks minutes as true and accurate?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Daviey> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Daviey. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<ttx> Daviey: and lose all the scribe pleasure to twist reality ? no way
<hallyn> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from hallyn. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Daviey> (I wrote them)
<ttx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ttx. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ccheney> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ccheney. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
 * ccheney was not there
<Daviey> ok, moving on
<Daviey> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 2
<Daviey> [TOPI
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> ttx to coordinate testing for Alpha 2?
<ttx> will start during this meeting. So not done yet.
<Daviey> ok
<Daviey> smoser to train someone on the release team on the cloud image release?
<smoser> in progress
<Daviey> smoser: Will it be done by next meeting?
<jiboumans_> smoser: who's the trainee(s)?
 * Daviey nudges smoser to hurry :)
<smoser> sory, yes, it can be done by alpha2
<smoser> i  opened a ticket to get cjwatson an account on our build machine
<jiboumans_> smoser: and cjwatson has the spare cycles before alpha2, yes?
<smoser> the "training" is mostly written up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/Publishing
<smoser> i would just plan on verifying / improving that during my publishing for alpha2
<Daviey> smoser: Is that an action?
<smoser> sure. why not
<smoser> but that wont be done by next tuesday.
<Daviey> [ACTION] smoser to chase IS regarding cjwatson's access and verifying / improving https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/Publishing
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to chase IS regarding cjwatson's access and verifying / improving https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/Publishing
<Daviey> smoser: ok, but we can check progress next week
<Daviey> jjohansen to review atop patchset for Alpha3 planning purposes?
<Daviey> jjohansen: Are you here?
<jjohansen> right, I had problems with sick kids last week so I handed them off to kamal
<jjohansen> he hopes to be done with them today
<Daviey> jjohansen: aww, sorry to hear that.. Hope they are dandy now.
<jjohansen> doing a lot better thanks
<Daviey> jjohansen: Great.. can you ask kamal to email the ubuntu-server mailing list when he has finished?
<jjohansen> yes
<Daviey> [ACTION] jjohansen to ask kamal to email ubuntu-server mailing list with results of atop patchset
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jjohansen to ask kamal to email ubuntu-server mailing list with results of atop patchset
<Daviey> Daviey to update #588861, if needed against alpha1
<Daviey> bug #588861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<Daviey> This has mainly been passed onto ccheney and jjohansen i believe
<ccheney> yes
<jjohansen> Right
<Daviey> ccheney has been doing some AWESOME testing, and updated his results on the bug, right?
<jjohansen> indeed
<ccheney> we have tracked it down to between 2.6.32 and 2.6.33 and waiting on 2.6.33rc kernels to test
<jiboumans_> note that this is blocking for working eucalyptus on alpha2
<Daviey> ccheney / jjohansen: What are the next steps?
<jjohansen> there are going to be some bisected test kernels
<jjohansen> from either me, tim, or andy
<Daviey> jiboumans_: We can revert the kernel for the A2 tests, but it's "less than ideal"
<ttx> jjohansen: this has way higher prio than the atop patchset, fwiw
<jjohansen> who ever gets to them first
<jjohansen> ttx: right, different people working on it
<jiboumans_> Daviey: sure, but it means that eucaltypus doesn't work on maverick, which is the point of a2 tests after all
<Daviey> jjohansen: Ok.. Any idea of an ETA for the test kernels?
<jiboumans_> so yeah, what ttx says; highest kernel issue that ^
<jjohansen> I expect there will be some today
<ccheney> it shouldn't take me more than a couple hours to find the rc kernel at fault once i have them
<Daviey> jjohansen: How will they be communicated?
<jjohansen> kernel team just finished a meeting and there is a bit of grind from that
<jjohansen> email, with urls, to you and ccheney
<ccheney> jjohansen, great :)
<jjohansen> and probably attached to the bug as well
<Daviey> [ACTION] jjohansen, tim or andy to email ccheney and Daviey with test kernels for bug #588861
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jjohansen, tim or andy to email ccheney and Daviey with test kernels for bug #588861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<Daviey> jjohansen: Thanks for that
<Daviey> zul to move the sru tracker code to it's own project?
<zul> yes https://edge.launchpad.net/server-sru-tracker
<Daviey> zul: you were waiting for that one, right?
<Daviey> zul: great work.
<zul> yep :)
<Daviey> moving on
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Maverick development (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick development (ttx)
<Daviey> ttx: wanna shoot?
<ttx> sure
<ttx> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ttx> So at this point the specs should be around 75%
<ttx> Also I need to know if there is anyone that thinks he cannot complete his work items by alpha2
<ttx> I'll talk to each of you in 1:1s
<ttx> just have a look at the remaining TODo work and assess the remaining time
<ttx> On the milestones bugs side...
<ttx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+bugs?field.milestone=27560
<ttx> A few of those apply to us
<ttx> Bug #588861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<ttx> already mentioned
 * Daviey feels that bug is yet to come up in this meeting
<ttx> Bug #595421
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 595421 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Maverick) "Eucalyptus doesn't start with latest stable version of "Groovy"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/595421
<Daviey> ^^ pending upload
<ttx> Daviey: this one isn't solved ?
<ttx> ah ok
<Daviey> already in bzr
<ttx> Bug #588410
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588410 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Maverick) "dynamic block storage should use virtio" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588410
<Daviey> ^^ pending upload
<Daviey> already in bzr
<ttx> Bug #594372
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 594372 in tgt (Ubuntu Maverick) "MIR: tgt" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594372
<ttx> (together with Bug #574554)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 574554 in tgt (Ubuntu Maverick) "tgtd needs init script or upstart job" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/574554
<ttx> ccheney, zul:  ^
<zul> the upstart script needs to be reiveiwed by the foundations team
<ttx> Bug #594509
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 594509 in irqbalance (Ubuntu Maverick) "irqbalance main process ended, respawning" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594509
<ttx> zul ^
<ccheney> tgt mir is waiting on ubuntu-mir
<zul> will work on it today
<Daviey> ccheney: Any chance you can chase on of them, with a prod?
<ttx> ccheney, zul: ok, don't hesitate to nudge them as those have been targeted against alpha2
<ccheney> do we have someone we usually use to process them?
<ttx> ccheney: no. But pitti was assigning someone to them usually
<zul> ccheney: no whoever is assigned to them
<ccheney> ok
<ttx> Finally, Alpha2 ISO testing coverage
<ttx> So the idea is that we split the ISO testing work to have test coverage inside the team
<ttx> We need to test : http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<ttx> Please subscribe to the tests you'd like to run
<ttx> and I'll check the holes in the subscription next week.
<ttx> hallyn: you'll need to create a QA/ISO testing account if you don't have already one.
<Daviey> [ACTION] People to subscribe to the test coverage for http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<MootBot> ACTION received:  People to subscribe to the test coverage for http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<ttx> Daviey: thanks
<hallyn> ttxi was about to ask...  so that's on amazon?
<ttx> hallyn: no
<ttx> hallyn: we can talk about it off-meeting
<hallyn> k
<Daviey> ttx: finished?
<ttx> yes
<Daviey> cool, thanks ttx
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<ttx> I'll be back
<hggdh> hi
<Daviey> hey hggdh
<hggdh> I have been a bit busy in Lexington
<ttx> hggdh: how is the training going ?
<Daviey> hggdh: How is
 * Daviey cuts short. :)
<hggdh> but -- thanks to Daviey -- I have installed the latest euca on our rig, and am right now running a small test
<Daviey> hggdh: Awesome.. can you email through the results for that issue?
<hggdh> ttx: good. We have decided on some simplifications on the protocol, also
<hggdh> Daviey: will do
<Daviey> [ACTION] hggdh to email interested parties about the results of the ppa build.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  hggdh to email interested parties about the results of the ppa build.
<Daviey> Does anyone have any questions or comments for hggdh ?
<hggdh> we intend to complete the protocol tomorrow, no new machines crapping out
<Daviey> (other than to state hggdh is awesome)
<ttx> Daviey: no
<Daviey> hggdh: Anything else you want to pass on?
<hggdh> no, not right now...
<Daviey> ok, great hggdh - thanks for the great testing
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<Daviey> Bug 588861: "pad block corrupted" error with >=2.6.34 kernel - Already covered
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<Daviey> atop kernel patch - Already covered
<ccheney> lol
<Daviey> jjohansen: Anything new?
<jjohansen> the EC2 kernel is being problematic and we may have to go with a Lucid based kernel for alpha2, if we don't have a working kernel by friday
<Daviey> and inverse, anyone have anything else for the kernel team?
<Daviey> jjohansen: What is blocking?
<jjohansen> on the EC2 kernel?
<Daviey> yah
<zul> Daviey: xen being a horribly bitch godddess perhaps?
<jjohansen> pv-ops works in 3 out of 4 zones
<Daviey> zul: noted :)
<Daviey> golly, that is crazy.
<Daviey> jjohansen: Is there a bug that is chasing the progress of that?
<jjohansen> and I just did a port of the Xen patchset to Maverick but it wasn't clean and is having some issues
<jjohansen> Daviey: no I haven't opened one for maverick
<jjohansen> I will just give me a sec
<Daviey> jjohansen: Would you mind raising one, it would be good to help us track the progress.
<jjohansen> :)
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> [ACTION] Follow up on bug #TBC - EC2 kernel (jjohansen)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Follow up on bug #TBC - EC2 kernel (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> hopefully we will have pv-ops, if not we will be falling back to Xen patchset
<Daviey> anyone have anything else for jjohansen ?
<Daviey> jjohansen: As ever, your team seems to be doing great work.. I'm sure you'll pull some awesome out of the bag.
 * Daviey moves on.
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Papercuts status (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Papercuts status (ttx)
<Daviey> ttx: your floor
<ttx> Alpha2 iteration status: https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-alpha-2
<ttx> We still have a few bugs to nail
<ttx> If you think you can't make it, unassign yourself so that I reassign
<ttx> That's for Clint and kirkland
<ttx> i'll chase up ivoks and nxvl
<ttx> asommer is, I think done with his
<sommer> :)
<ttx> On the alpha3 side...
<ttx> We are unfortunately very short on nominations
<ttx> I wrote a blog post about it (with a provoking title)
<Daviey> ttx: what is the url?
<ttx> but so far just a couple new, that's all
<ttx> http://fnords.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/did-we-fix-all-small-usability-issues-in-ubuntu-server/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://fnords.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/did-we-fix-all-small-usability-issues-in-ubuntu-server/
<ttx> So team members and bystanders, please file and nominate your favorite usability issues
<Daviey> ttx: okay, is there an action we can pull out of this?
<ttx> Other bloggers could echo my post
<Daviey> okay, /me leaves his ACTION stick @ home, and has a pause to thought about that.
<Daviey> ttx: moving on?
<ttx> sure
<Daviey> cool, top work ttx
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20revi
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20revi
<ttx> ew
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (zul)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (zul)
<Daviey> rather
<zul> hi
<Daviey> hey zul
<zul> so there is nothing nominated for the stable releases
<zul> and with regards to http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<zul> is there anything worth nominating to be backported?
<Daviey> (that's good, right?)
<zul> yep
<zul> i dont have anything does anyone else?
<Daviey> zul: so that first link is the pretty New SRU tracker?
<ttx> looking
<Daviey> zul: In the agenda we've got "Move to the new SRU process".. Can you expand on that?
<ttx> zul:  nothing from me
<zul> Daviey: yes
<Daviey> oh good
<Daviey> please do :)
<Daviey> zul?
<zul> at UDS in brussels we had a session that came up with a new way of getting more people invovled with people nominating SRUs by using the ml rather than the team meeting
<zul> sorry i type slow
<Daviey> (sorry)
<zul> I would like to start that next week
<Daviey> zul: How does that start?
<zul> Daviey: basically i would fire off a canned email saying that these were fixed last week with instructions on how to nominate them and by the end of the week they would be reviewed by me
<Daviey> zul: All of them reviewed by you?
<Daviey> zul: Is there a stand by, if you go AWOL?
<zul> well i would probably collect which ones are nominated and acuttually do the leg work
<zul> is that right ttx?
<zul> Daviey: not as yet
<ttx> yes
<Daviey> ok, that might be a good idea to get organised... which basically means document what you do :)
<Daviey> [ACTION] zul to mail the ubuntu-server mailing list with the SRU nomination process, and document his process from there.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to mail the ubuntu-server mailing list with the SRU nomination process, and document his process from there.
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> zul: Nice stuff! you rock.
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<Daviey> sommer is our doc's rock star, any one have anything for him?
<Daviey> sommer: Have anything for us?
<sommer> I didn't really have anything for this week... things are sailing smooth at this point
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> sommer: Keep on rockin'.  Know that you can contact any of us if you have any concerns during the week.
<Daviey> thanks sommer!
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<sommer> coolio thanks Daviey
<Daviey> Nothing here o/
<ttx> Nominate papercuts !
<zul> sorry computer went bonkers
<Daviey> zul: heh
<Daviey> ok, moving on
<zul> what did i miss?
<Daviey> zul: nothing
<zul> k
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<ttx> Daviey: you missed sommer.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> ttx: huh?
<ttx> s/Daviey/zul/
<Daviey> [ACTION] Make Daviey sad with the late time of the next meeting.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Make Daviey sad with the late time of the next meeting.
<Daviey> Tuesday 2010-06-29 at 1800 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<ttx> yes, do it again.
<Daviey> ttx: sorry?
<ttx> let's make you sad again !
<Daviey> boohoo
<Daviey> thanks all for attending
<Daviey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:49.
<ttx> thanks Daviey !
<sommer> party on all :-)
<Daviey> hggdh: When you do the mins, can you 's/#TBC/#597387/g'
<hggdh> Daviey: sure
<Daviey> hggdh: Awesome
<sirex`> Does CC meeting will take place today? 20:00 UTC?
<sirex`> stas: Does CC meeting will take place today? 20:00 UTC?
<stas> sirex`: it should
<sirex`> stas: you are from Romanian LoCo?
<stas> sirex`: yes, you?
<sirex`> From Lithuanian LoCo.
<sirex`> Strange in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda are written that we sould attend on 15 July, but not today...
<sirex`> Also ubuntu meeting calendar doesn't list anyl LoCoCouncil meetings today...
<DoruHush> The LoCo Council meets on the 3rd Tuesday of every month at 20:00 UTC. The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday 22-June-2010, 20:00 UTC and and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net.
<Cracknel> sirex`: look in the first paragraph
<czajkowski> Hi
<Cracknel> it's what DoruHush just said :)
<czajkowski> The loco council meet last week
<czajkowski> we will meet again next month
<DoruHush> on the 29th?
<sirex`> Yes, am looking there, but in other places are written different dates. It's confusing..
<stas> strange, the page on wiki is modified recently
<DoruHush> thank you czajkowski :)
<alex3f> '/part
<Cracknel> Someone should update the wiki with correct information.
 * stas fake alarm
<czajkowski> DoruHush: no problem
<czajkowski> Cracknel: I think it is correct
<czajkowski> 3rd tuesday
<stas> cheers
<czajkowski> this month has 5 tuesdays in it
<sirex`> So in first paragrapth is written, that meeting will be today, then someone changes dates next to teams lising to 15 july and next 3rd tuesday will be on 20 july... :)
<DoruHush> that means it will be on a Thursday and not a Tuesday, right?
<sirex`> DoruHush: it seems, that next lococouncil meeting will be on 20 july...
<czajkowski> sirex`: I dont see where it says meeting today
<sirex`> czajkowski: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda first paragraph
<DoruHush> on the table is the right date 20 of july
<DoruHush> thank you
<czajkowski> I've fixed it now
<czajkowski> but it does state 3rd tuesday so it wuldnt have happened today
<czajkowski> and in the past all of the meetings were won the 3rd tuesday
<DoruHush> yes yes
<sirex`> who knows which statment is correct... I only attend these meetings each two years... :)
<czajkowski> sirex`: well that's a bit of an issue in its;ef so
<czajkowski> sirex`: are you the team contact
<sirex`> czajkowski: yes.
<sirex`> Was prepared today to reapprove Lithuanian team.
<czajkowski> sirex`: well team contacts should know when the council meetings and also attend on a monthly basis
<sirex`> czajkowski: ok, I will try to watch for what is going more attentive.
<czajkowski> sirex`: thanks and see you next month
<DoruHush> bye bye :)
<zkriesse> any council members here?
<czajkowski> zkriesse: which council
<zkriesse> just any ubuntu council member
<zkriesse> i need to get my ubuntu member cloak changed but the freenode staff need permission from the group that gave the cloak...
<zkriesse> hence ubuntu
<czajkowski> zkriesse: which membership board did you get your membership from and have you gone to the IRC channel to sort it out
<czajkowski> zkriesse: nope not hence Ubuntu, :)
<zkriesse> czajkowski: gimme a sec
<zkriesse> czajkowski: it was the Asia Oceania membership board
<zkriesse> and i've been to #ubuntu-irc and #freenode but they say that they need a GC approval before they can change it for me
<popey> zkriesse: whats your launchpad ID?
<zkriesse> popey: ~zkriesse
<popey> what do you want it changed to?
<zkriesse> popey: from zach@ubuntu/member/ZachK- to zach@ubuntu/member/zkriesse
<popey> who did you speak to so far?
<zkriesse> popey: few different staff in #freenode nick of jtrucks and some others in #ubuntu-irc
<popey> today?
<pleia2> zkriesse: you need to talk to one of the irc-council folks in #ubuntu-irc
<pleia2> they control the GC stuff for Ubuntu
<czajkowski> zkriesse: not a #freenode issue
<zkriesse> ah
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> pleia2: know of anybody that i can talk to in -irc?
<zkriesse> a name to look for?
<popey> jussi or pici
<zkriesse> ok thanks
<popey> or topyli, bnrubin or tsimpson
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-23
<robbiew> o/
<mvo> hi
<barry> hi
<robbiew> whose chairing today?
<robbiew> doko: do you recall who was chairing the meeting today?
<ev> hiya
<barry> doko: i think
<barry> or maybe he did it last week (bip logs suck)
<robbiew> I know he did it last week...but can't recall who was to do it this week
<barry> cjwatson: volunteered last week ;)
<robbiew> ah...but he's busy
<robbiew> okay...I'll run this bad boy
<doko> gahh, forgotten about that
<barry> shuffle says order is: ev, mvo, doko, surbhi, Keybuk, cjwatson, barry
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:07. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> ev is up first
<robbiew> :)
<ev> I've been working on creating new GTK widgets to support some of the design elements that Michael has created for the installer.  I also created a small server to act as a front end to the geonames database and filed an RT ticket for a server to put this on.
<ev> Next up is hacking the partitioner to reflect the new design
<ev> ~
<mvo> last week: vacation :) this week: software-center-buy-something (I updated my previous two activity reports in the wiki too, but its a little bit terse this time) (done)
<robbiew> doko?
<doko>  * linaro: work with CS on Ubuntu patches, new uploads using the CS changes, work with M
<doko> arcin on integrating the gcc -cross.mk build files
<doko>  * work with barry on python2/python3 coordination
<doko> --
<robbiew> surbhi on holiday
<barry> doko: can you push out an updated py2.7 pkg to debian with the latest rc?
<robbiew> Keybuk on holiday
<robbiew> cjwatson is busy
<robbiew> barry?
<barry> f-m-py-versions: moved 2.7 stack to ~pythoneers; imported debian's 2.7 package; fixed sysconfig/py2.7-minimal bug & submitted debian bug report; blocked on numpy/pygtk ppa ftbfs.  f-m-robust-py-pkg: ported doko's versioned .so files to py3k; repaired test failures; added distutils support; testing; discussed w/POX; will take upstream to py-dev today.  misc: initramfs-tools-bin amd64 mav fail; rt issue re pipermail; dmb & ppu rights.
<barry> done.
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Actions from Last Meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Actions from Last Meeting
<robbiew> did we have any?
<robbiew> I don't think so
<barry> robbiew: don't think so...
<robbiew> (skipping FFE)
<robbiew> and bugs...looks fine
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
 * robbiew will beat the drum....DO IT
<robbiew> :P
<robbiew> our community depends on us for it...and we depend on them ;)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Business from Activity Reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Business from Activity Reports
 * robbiew looks at the wiki and notices VERY light activity
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
 * robbiew leaves for vacation this Friday...and won't be back until July 6th
<robbiew> :D
<barry> hey, i got per-package upload rights for a few things!
<robbiew> we also made an offer for Release Manager
<robbiew> barry: \o/
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> mvo did you get around to deferring some of your blueprints? ;)
<mvo> *cough*
<mvo> not yet, but I will this week
<robbiew> thank you sir :)
 * mvo blushes a bit for not having it done already
<robbiew> the MIR queue is WAY backed up...and the team is in desperate need of help
<robbiew> a discussion has been started around redoing the MIR process
<barry> robbiew: where is that discussion being held?
<doko> looking at some MIR's I think it became to easy to say "I did follow the process" ...
<robbiew> asac proposed  a model where we have a small MIR team that is basically responsible for packages that would fall into the core-dev team responsibility; while packages that are leaf packages just for package sets like gnome and kde and server etc. could be approved by trained roles within the team responsible for the package set.
<robbiew> barry: email right now
<robbiew> we should probably move the discussion to ubuntu-devel
<barry> +1 :)
<robbiew> but in fairness, it started out as a simple request for a few people to help
<asac> right. imo we need a short term fix for the backlog ... and we should think about better scaling it in future
<robbiew> asac: agreed
<asac> which is why i thought about aligning it around apackage sets came up
<robbiew> so....that's all I got
<robbiew> other teams are also being asked to help with the MIR backlog
<robbiew> I wanted to raise it here...but we honestly don't have the spare cycles
<robbiew> unless mvo decides he doesn't need sleep
<mvo> sleep is important! and I have a kid that keeps me already from sleeping
<robbiew> if anyone wants to jump in and help (but not join), I'm sure that would be appreciated as well
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Next Week's Chair
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next Week's Chair
<robbiew> is it ev?
<ev> sure
<robbiew> nice...thanks ev
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:23.
<robbiew> and that's all she wrote
<mvo> thanks
<robbiew> :)
<barry> robbiew: thanks!
<czajkowski> robbiew: short and sweet and up to date :)
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> that's how I roll :P
<czajkowski> robbiew: wish others would do the same
<duanedesign> /18/99
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-24
<wers> hellooo
<thorwil> hi wers, vish, mpt, godbyk-android2
<mpt> Hello everyone
<vish> o/
<wers> hi thorwil
<mpt> I'm sorry ivanka, charline, and djsiegel aren't here, I don't know where they are t.b.h.
<thorwil> movable bermuda triangle?
<mpt> possibly
<mpt> Millbank Triangle
 * thorwil whistles scary melody
<vish> heh
<mpt> Is godbyk-android2 actually here?
<wers> okayyy. what do we have for today? :)
<mpt> Well, I was going to invite godbyk to talk about his ideas for a usability book
<wers> usability book, huh? what is this exactly about?
<thorwil> mpt: we have been missing him in the -manual channel, lately
<mpt> We've been talking a bit about how to present the human interface guidelines
<mpt> and Kevin suggested the possibility of having a more general book for design and usability in open source
<wers> nice
<mpt> But I think, as with the interface guidelines, there's a lack of people with time to write
<thorwil> mpt: would be great, if combined with an online version and at least the option of some collaborative editing. could be done with one or 2 full timers plus only few now-and-then collaborators ;p
<mpt> oh, only one or two full-timers? :-)
<mpt> Kevin suggested this book as inspiration: http://www.uidesigns.com/
<thorwil> mpt: one is serious, 2 is mocking maybe a little bit ;)
<mpt> hi aday
<aday> mpt: hey, sorry i'm late
<wers> hi aday :)
<mpt> Apart from that, we seem to have a lack of ideas at the moment.
<aday> wers: hi :)
<mpt> And I will be away on holiday the next two Thursdays, so I won't be able to run these meetings.
<thorwil> mpt: unless there's a competent, yet crazy person out there, not in this circle. godbyk has to know himself, but i think the manual project can easily eat his available time in the foreseeable future
<mpt> yes
 * vish takes note to squeeze stuff from mpt before his vacation ;p
<thorwil> no lack of ideas, just a lack of ones that we can tackle, realistically
<vish> mpt: lack of ideas? maybe we need more of folks from the ayatana ML ;p
 * thorwil knows he starts to sound like a broken record, but can't help it
<aday> me and some of the gnome design types have started drawing up some personas. is that something we could tackle?
<mpt> yes, that's a possibility
<thorwil> vish: SABDFL is my hero. +1, look at that funny picture i madez you!
<mpt> We've talked at a couple of UDSes (Jaunty and Karmic, I think) about personas, but we didn't produce any in public
<vish> thorwil: pff , fanboyee ;)
<wers> something's bugging me about the panel. i'm not sure if this is the right time to discuss it, though
<aday> mpt: we've drafted some and i'm planning to do some interviews
<vish> aday: personas would be great thing to work on
<mpt> aday, great, are the drafts published anywhere?
<aday> the main challenge for me is getting interviewees
<aday> mpt: it's happening on google wave... we could move the content somewhere else though
<aday> or just add interested parties
<mpt> I'm an interested party
<aday> mpt: got a wave address?
<mpt> aday, matthew.thomas
<mpt> @gmail
<aday> done. anybody else?
<vish> o/
<mpt> thanks aday
<thorwil> o/, too
<wers> allancaeg *at* gmail
<thorwil> t_w_@freenet.de
<mpt> Something else Kevin and I discussed over the past week is setting up a basic user testing template (Do people understand what your program does? How long does it take for them to do something useful with it? etc)
<mpt> to encourage the UX advocates to do some user testing, even informally
<wers> mpt, that's interesting. do you have a draft template as of the moment?
<wers> and what user testing tools do you have in mind?
<mpt> no, I haven't
<mpt> Just sitting beside someone as they try out the program
<mpt> and asking them to do various things
<mpt> nothing complicated
<mpt> Have any of us run a user test before? I know aday has sat in on one we did at Canonical
 * thorwil 's experience is limited to seeing lots of folks stumble through quarkXpress, freehand, photoshop and ms office
<wers> i havent yet, but I've seen a morae session before. that's what we're trying to duplicate through the FOSS Usability Testing Suite
 * vish neither
<wers> actually, my office might buy Morae very soon and we're planning to have user testing as a service next week. i'll see what I'll learn out of the experience
<aday> it doesn't have to be as complicated as using screen recording software. you can just watch and make a few notes
<mpt> ok, so I will try to persuade charline or someone to write up a basic template, if I don't have time to do it myself
<aday> it's amazing how much you can learn that way
<mpt> true
<wers> aday, i agree, especially if the persona the participant represents thinks very differently from you
<mpt> I'll also see if I can persuade ivanka to run the meeting the next couple of weeks.
<thorwil> the people thinking different became very clear to me, a hit with a basebal bat couldn't have been clearer
<mpt> In the meantime, thanks for turning up. :-)
<thorwil> mpt: found ivanka. she just has been in the wiki, free culture showcase :)
<thorwil> np, after all, that's all i manage
<wers> for user testing, we can use gtk record my desktop or Istanbul in the meantime.
<wers> and just run it with the sound recorder
<wers> for TAP
<wers> casually observing the usage of the software is nice, but it's better to document the test so others can also give their feedback
<aday> i'm the ux advocate for nautilus (apparently). i'm planning to blog about that soon. i'll try and put something in there about usability testing
<wers> sorry got dc. did a miss anything?
<wers> aday, you remember the app centrism discussion? :)
<aday> wers: yeah! you moved forward with that at all?
<wers> aday, i want to pursue it
<wers> i'm actually planning to talk about it at GNOME.Asia
<wers> I'll explore it a bit more and maybe borrow your ideas. I'll quote you if I talk about them, of course :D
<aday> wers: cool. i've been talking with some designers about document management away from the file system. would love to see that happen
<aday> wers: no need to quote me. just buy me a beer ;)
<wers> aday, nice. I actually emailed dylan mccall. he's still interested
<wers> aday, lol. shipping costs would be more expensive :P i'll just quote you
<aday> wers: great. i was excited about his project. that could be a big part of whatever solution we come up with
<aday> wers: there's also the stuff that's planned for unity, though i haven't seen many specifics
<wers> aday, cool! you mean, solution to app centrism issue?
<wers> aday, that' nice. what is it exactly?
<aday> wers: i'm primarily thinking about document management outside the file manager
<aday> wers: what's unity? the new ubuntu netbook thang
<wers> aday, oh. you meant, that (which is your suggestion on the thread) could be a solution (to the document management issue), correct?
<wers> aday, i meant, what's the solution on unity exactly? is there a specific app addressing the issue?
<aday> wers: i hear they're planning to use zeitgeist for file management
<wers> aday, oh. you mean, the engine right? so just the backend but not Activity Journal?
<aday> wers: yes. no indications of what the front will look like yet
<wers> if so, how will this address the issue? will it display filetype-specific options?
<aday> wers: dunno! we might be on slightly different wave lengths on this one... i'd like to see you slides or whatever when they're done
<wers> aday, oh. let's just wait for it :)
<aday> wers: we'll i'd like to try and collaborate with unity if possible. it would be great if gnome could use some of the work they're doing
<aday> *we'll -> well
<wers> aday, that's exactly what i was thinking. we could use some upstream love. i was actually wondering if you were involved in unity, but weren't talking about this upstream. hehe
<wers> but you mentioned that you're waiting for them so I figured. haha
<wers> 'cause the thing with this is, it's not a netbook-specific issue. the GNOME desktop can use it
<wers> which makes me think, why doesn't GNOME have a netbook interface, unlike KDE? ok nevermind. offtopic. lol
<aday> wers: well that depends. they might have a very restricted set of use-cases. we'd have to discuss it
<wers> yep. let's just talk about it in the right venue
<sbr> Hello
<sbr> Any metting
<sbr> Is anyone here?
<czajkowski> sbr: what meeting are you looking for http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<sbr> the java meeting
<sbr> czajkowski: the details on the meeting says 15 - 16, so maybe it is registered wrong
<czajkowski> sbr: I've no idea sorry I've never seen that meeting
<sbr> czajkowski: okay thanks, I will try at 15
<sbr> Any meetting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-25
<ccheney> kirkland, looks like the bug showed up due to this change (still need to verify though) http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=cc56f7de7f00d188c7c4da1e9861581853b9e92f
<huats> morning
 * ara waves
 * Ian_corne waves back
<rickspencer3> hi ara, Ian_corne
<ttx> o/
<Riddell> afternoon
<rickspencer3> hi ttx, Riddell
<seb128> hey rickspencer3, hey everybody!
<rickspencer3> hi seb128
<rickspencer3> I never ran this meeting before, so hoping folks can help me out if I get off track or do something incorrectly
<rickspencer3> #startmeeting
 * ttx prepares a long stick
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is rickspencer3.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> afternoon
<rickspencer3> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/Agenda
<rickspencer3> hi cjwatson
<rickspencer3> so looking at the burndowns
<rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/FeatureStatus
<rickspencer3> guess I should do ..
<rickspencer3> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/FeatureStatus
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/FeatureStatus
<rickspencer3> looks like Ubuntu folks are pretty much on track
<rickspencer3> ignoring the "All" chart, looks like nothing has changed much wrt trend line
<rickspencer3> I guess we are at Freeze for A2 starting yesterday
<cjwatson> it's a bit later for alphas
<rickspencer3> only bug fixes from here out
<cjwatson> I expect we'll freeze end of Monday / start of Tuesday or so
<rickspencer3> yeah, I was going to say, I hear this is a bit more of a target than a limit
<rickspencer3> to use cjwatson vernacular
<cjwatson> well, we only usually have a full-week freeze for the important milestones
<Riddell> who's the alpha 2 release manager?
<cjwatson> I think my phrase was the other way round :-)
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, right, for important milstones, Freezes are limits, not targets
<cjwatson> rickspencer3: ah :)
<rickspencer3> Riddell, good question
<rickspencer3> as robbiew is on vacation next week
<cjwatson> I was expecting to be landed with the bulk of CD-building work and such
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, are  you release manager?
<rickspencer3> for A2, I mean?
<cjwatson> call me release engineer perhaps. :)
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, if there are related tasks and such that someone else could handle to lighten your load, let me know
<rickspencer3> we can find someone, but probably work on that outside the meeting
<rickspencer3> so, I guess we rock the agenda now
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC] QA
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA
<rickspencer3> ara?
<ara> OK, it is the first time for me as well, so I guess I'll just follow the agenda
<ara> Results for HW testing:
<ara> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<ara> Laptops:
<ara>     passed:   49 (78%)    failed:    0 ( 0%)    untested: 14 (22%)
<ara> Servers:
<ara>     passed:   45 (70%)    failed:    0 ( 0%)    untested: 19 (30%)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<ara> The HW cert team have gotten most of the laptops tested now, as cyphermox solved the environmental issue that was preventing them from being tested.
 * ara hugs cyphermox 
<ara> There are still a number of systems that were not tested this week; This will be a top priority for fader to get fixed next week when he's back from Taipei.
<rickspencer3> ara, are the untested numbers expected to be 0% next week?
<ara> yes, fader will work on it
<rickspencer3> k
 * ara hugs fader as well, the hw cert team rocks!
<ara> he couldn't work on those from Taipei
<rickspencer3> undestood
<rickspencer3> ara, the QA work items are well below the trend line
<rickspencer3> so, looks like everything is going to adjusted plan on that regard
<ara> yes, numbers look like it
<ara> qa-maverick-iso-testcases-review - 100% complete
<ara> qa-maverick-mentoring-program - 100% complete
<ara> qa-maverick-improve-iso-tracker - 100% of targeted alpha-2 workitems finished
<ara> server-maverick-uec-testing - 73% of targetef to alpha-2 workitems finished
<rickspencer3> is euc testing blocked, or just not finished yet?
<ttx> 73% ? was 60% 10 min ago :)
<rickspencer3> heh, suggests "just not finished yet"
<ttx> Just not finished yet, i'll come back in my part
<rickspencer3> ara, anything to add
<rickspencer3> any questions for ara?
<ara> not from side, at least you have any questions
<rickspencer3> moving on
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]security
<MootBot> New Topic: security
<jdstrand> o/
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<rickspencer3> fire away
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<jdstrand> mdeslaur is continuing to make progress on security-m-tls-renegotiation-updates, our last remaining essential blueprint.
<jdstrand> kees got his patches into the Ubuntu kernel for security-m-kernel-hardening a while ago, and is continuing to work on getting his changes accepted upstream. Based on upstream feedback, he has written a new LSM, 'Yama' and submitted it upstream. The ultimate goal is to get Yama upstream and working with AppArmor (and other LSMs).
<jdstrand> (and get that all in Ubuntu to reduce the delta)
<jdstrand> I've been working primarily with chriscoulson and the mozillateam on the firefox 3.6 transition. It was discovered that the openjdk-6 plugin does not work with Jaunty or Karmic, which has set back publication for those releases. Because firefox 3.6 requires NPAPI, the current plan is to test openjdk-6 from lucid-proposed on Jaunty and Karmic. Once packages are built in the ubuntu-mozilla-security PPA, TCK tests will be run on them. Assuming 
<jdstrand> As such, I've decided to publish the update for Hardy and Lucid early next week (hopefully Monday). People interested in following the status of the security publication can read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Firefox3.6.4Upgrade/SecurityPublication.
<rickspencer3> who specifically is running the TCK tests?
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Firefox3.6.4Upgrade/SecurityPublication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Firefox3.6.4Upgrade/SecurityPublication
<jdstrand> sbeattie will be performing the TCK testing on openjdk-6 for Jaunty and Karmic. He is working with doko on this, and utilizing the prior work he did while on the QA team.
<jdstrand> sbeattie is also
<jdstrand> coordinating the work for the new 2.5.1 stable release of AppArmor (userspace), which should identify areas of opportunity for SRU in lucid.
<jdstrand> On a personal note, I'd like to point out how great it has been working with chriscoulson and micahg. They've been doing a thorough job on the transition and have been willing and able to fix any issues that come up.
<jdstrand> :)
<jdstrand> We have no milestoned bugs, and we followed up on our release-targeted bugs and are either waiting on feedback from reporters/upstream or time to fix them.
<rickspencer3> sounds solid
<rickspencer3> anything to add? any questions?
<jdstrand> (that's it from me)
<rickspencer3> thanks jdstrand
<rickspencer3> moving on
<jdstrand> sure! :)
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]Kernel
<MootBot> New Topic: Kernel
<ogasawara> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the first URL below, including the item(s) called out in the agenda.  Our burndown chart for Alpha2 is at the third URL, and our overall burndown chart is at the fourth:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone maverick-alpha-2
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone maverick-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> On the item noted in the agenda, the status is as follows:
<ogasawara> * Bug 588861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<ogasawara> Tim is currently assigned to this bug and working with ccheney to build and test bisected kernels.  I believe they may have isolated the offending commit just this morning.  It's not completely understood why the patch is causing the regression as it seems to just implement more rigorous error checking.  Tim is going to contact the patch authors for further discussions.  This appears to be too late to be resolved in the
<ogasawara> kernel by Alpha2.  We're in discussion with the server team for alternative Alpha2 solutions.  ttx will bring this up under the Server Team's status during the meeting.
<ttx> yes
<ogasawara> As a general status, assuming no kitten killers come our way, we uploaded our final Alpha2 kernel yesterday:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/2.6.35-6.7
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/2.6.35-6.7
<ogasawara> This most notably contains a sync with the latest Apparmor patches, upstream evdev buffer patches, and upstream magicmouse scrolling improvements. We are also below our burdown chart overall as well as below our Alpha2 burdown chart with 89% work items complete.  The remaining Alpha2 work items are not release critical.
<ogasawara> Questions?
<rickspencer3> thanks ogasawara
<rickspencer3> moving on
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]Foundations
<MootBot> New Topic: Foundations
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<cjwatson> We are below our trend line at last, although much of this has been by means of postponements so the next alpha will be interesting.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<cjwatson>  * UbuntuSpec:arm-m-tool-chain-selection (0%): Test rebuild still likely to happen for alpha-2, although decision will probably be later.
<cjwatson>  * UbuntuSpec:desktop-maverick-language-selector-code-changes (100%): Our side of this is done.
<cjwatson> * UbuntuSpec:foundations-maverick-btrfs-support (100%): Complete for alpha-2.  First pass at technical work on grub2 for alpha-3 has been completed, but may stall on licensing issues beyond our control; we've tried to initiate discussion on this.
<cjwatson> * UbuntuSpec:foundations-maverick-buy-something (25%): Work items no longer reflecting reality due to server-side changes.  Michael will get these updated today.
<cjwatson>  * UbuntuSpec:foundations-m-uefi-support (83%): Essentially complete for alpha-2.  Ran into a few problems at the UEFI Plugfest which should now be fixed.  Open work item for kernel team to investigate status of Intel graphics drivers on EFI.  Deferred investigation of multi-catalog images; this has been started but will probably not be completed in time for alpha-2.
<cjwatson>  * UbuntuSpec:server-maverick-uec-liveusb (100%): Merged live-uec seed.  We have a work item for alpha-3 to start building CD images of this.
<cjwatson> We've got a jump on a few of our alpha-3 specs as well.  See our release status page for details.
<cjwatson> No major bugs, but:
<cjwatson>  * Bug:588677 - slideshow show 10.04 LTS in maverick alpha1: had been waiting for a complete slideshow drop, but it might be worth fixing this before that if only to cut down on duplicates from ISO testing
<cjwatson>  * Bug:596136 - package binutils-multiarch 2.20.1-3ubuntu6 failed to install/upgrade: this has been reassigned to hardening-wrapper, so can it have the security team's attention?
<cjwatson> Fixed:
<cjwatson>  * Bug:588633 - textual splash says 10.04 for maverick
<cjwatson> My main concern for alpha-2 at the moment is that the archive is in a somewhat wonky state regarding installability and such (e.g. we haven't had working alternate or server CD builds for a few days), and we'll need to pay special attention to that over the next few days.
<cjwatson> --
<cjwatson> (PS the most immediate cause of alternate/server build breakage is fixed, but we'll see what's next)
<rickspencer3> ara ...
<rickspencer3>   * Bug:596136 - package binutils-multiarch 2.20.1-3ubuntu6 failed to install/upgrade: this has been reassigned to hardening-wrapper, so can it have the security team's attention?
<rickspencer3> ?
<jdstrand> cjwatson: re hardening-wrapper, I'll point kees at it
<rickspencer3> oops
<cjwatson> jdstrand: thanks
<rickspencer3> sorry ara, wrong person
<rickspencer3> thanks jdstrand
<rickspencer3> :/
<jdstrand> :)
<rickspencer3> thanks cjwatson
<ara> :)
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, in terms of A3 ...
<rickspencer3> (and this is relevant for everyone)
<rickspencer3> please use the # of WI that were done in A2 as an initial target for A3
<rickspencer3> I'd rather if we commit to the targeted items in A3, and we have more capacity, we just do more work items
<rickspencer3> this will help us be a bit more predictable, but shouldn't make us less productive
<cjwatson> that's fair, I'll talk about it with Robbie when he gets back
<rickspencer3> thanks cjwatson
<cjwatson> although I do hope that we'll be able to be significantly more productive for a3
<cjwatson> particularly with e.g. the platform sprint in theree
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, ack
<rickspencer3> also, I wouldn't say Foundations was not productive
<cjwatson> I generally feel we've been under where we should be
<cjwatson> obviously other factors etc.
<rickspencer3> well, work items is only one of the things the team works on
<ttx> rickspencer3: the work-item-tracker could seed the trends line to the previous iteration completed wi number
<rickspencer3> so I don't think I would say the team was not productive
<rickspencer3> ttx sure, good idea
<ttx> that wouldn't be worse than the current "whatever is the number at the start of cycle" current situation
<cjwatson> agreed
<rickspencer3> sure
<rickspencer3> let's move on, though
<rickspencer3> thanks again cjwatson
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]Server
<MootBot> New Topic: Server
<ttx> o/
<ttx> Updated status is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<ttx> Our good-looking burndown chart can be visited at: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ttx> Alpha2-milestoned bugs:
<ttx> Bug 588861 (davewalker/rtg) -- will come back to this one in just a few
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<ttx> Bug 595421 (davewalker) -- Fixed, pending upload
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 595421 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Maverick) "Eucalyptus doesn't start with latest stable version of "Groovy"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/595421
<ttx> Bug 588410 (davewalker) -- Fixed, pending upload
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588410 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Maverick) "dynamic block storage should use virtio" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588410
<ttx> Bug 594372 (ccheney/mterry) -- Pending MIR team review
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 594372 in tgt (Ubuntu Maverick) "MIR: tgt" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594372
<ttx> Bug 574554 (ccheney/zul) -- Needs a review from Foundations' upstart review team
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 574554 in tgt (Ubuntu Maverick) "tgtd needs init script or upstart job" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/574554
<ttx> (hint hint)
<ttx> On the specs side...
<ttx> Alpha2-milestoned specs status
<ttx> server-maverick-new-stacks (60%): One potential package to upload to universe, will be done by next week
<ttx> server-maverick-sru-process (67%): On track, setup of new process will be finalized early next week
<ttx> server-maverick-cloud-datastores (86%): Only one communication/documentation work item left
<ttx> server-maverick-cloud-init (93%): Only one communication/documentation work item left
<rickspencer3> ttx, is bug #574554 blocking A2?
<ttx> no, it was a target, but can be postponed
<ttx> its part of the MIR
<ttx> Specs with remaining work items affected by Alpha2 freeze:
<ttx> server-maverick-uec-eucalyptus-next (80%): Needs to land a eucalyptus package fixing the already-mentioned alpha2-critical issues
<ttx> Other Critical/High Specs < 85% completion:
<ttx> server-maverick-hypervisor (82%): Only triage tasks left
<ttx> server-maverick-hadoop-pig (67%): Remaining tasks will be completed at Hadoop Summit next week
<ttx> server-maverick-uec-testing (60%): Work in progress, still on track for Alpha2 milestone release
<ttx> Other Medium/Low Specs < 70% completion:
<ttx> server-maverick-uds-web20-workloads (67%): Two packages to upload to universe
<ttx> server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades (57%): Tech investigation tasks, will be completed by next week
<ttx> server-maverick-uds-seed-review (50%): package set contents review, should be completed by next week
<ttx> server-maverick-uds-cloud-loadbalancing (50%): Tech investigation task left, will be completed by next week
<ttx> So it's all looking good, we don't expect spillover to A3
<ttx> Questions on that, before I switch to bug 588861 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<ttx> ok, moving on...
<ttx> So I wanted to talk about bug 588861 as there is a decision for the release team to take for Alpha2 on that
<ttx> This bug is a java file decryption error in Eucalyptus, only when run on a recent (2.6.33+) kernel
<ttx> The net effect being it prevents to register any image in Eucalyptus, so you just can't use it.
<ttx> tgardner and ccheney bisected the regression up to a precise commit early in 2.6.33.
<rickspencer3> that sounds like a blocker
<ttx> We don't understand yet why it's causing that decryption error in Javaland.
<ttx> The options for A2 are:
<ttx> (1) ship with a kernel which reverts that commit (but we are late for that, as ogasawara mentioned)
<ttx> (2) ship Ubuntu Server Maverick Alpha2 with a Lucid kernel (is that even possible ?)
<cjwatson> (2) is not possible
<ttx> (3) releasenote, for UEC installs, the process to revert to a Lucid kernel to workaround the issue
<ttx> cjwatson: right
<ttx> (4) .... anything else ?
<cjwatson> (well, not without changing a vast amount of stuff)
 * ogasawara would vote for #3
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, could folks who want to test uec install the lucid kernel themselves, in a manual way? as work around?
<rickspencer3> ook
<rickspencer3> that's option #3
<rickspencer3> n,
<rickspencer3> nm, even
 * rickspencer3 votes for option #3 too
<Daviey> ttx: Could we not have a PPA of the kernel with the commit redacted, for A2?
<ttx> if we can come up with a simple way of doing #3, maybe that's the best option
<Daviey> Then that is *closer* to Maverick A2 vanilla
<tgardner> Daviey, we could
<ttx> Daviey: yes, that could be how we present the #3 option
<rickspencer3> well, presumably, if the bug is not fixed in A2, it will be fixed quite soon
<rickspencer3> so it seems the effort of creating the PPA may be better channeled to working on the bug
<tgardner> rickspencer3, I've got the full court press going on it
<rickspencer3> thoughts?
<rickspencer3> so perhaps you install A2, apt-get dist-upgrade, and you're good to go?
<rickspencer3> tgardner ^ what are the chances of that?
<jdstrand> if 3 is not done right/relatively easily, then you will lose testers
<tgardner> pretty good.
<rickspencer3> jdstrand, but if #3 is "dist-upgrade" what could be easier?
<rickspencer3> ttx, how many testers do you expect to have who will be blocked by this bug?
<jdstrand> sure. that is as easy as it gets :) (I typed that before I saw that option :)
<ttx> rickspencer3: I'd like to keep a workaround in the milestone, so that the UEC actually gets tested at milestone
<ttx> but if PPA is costly...
<rickspencer3> ttx, but if there is a new kernel with the bug fix in place by next Thursday, then your testers are in fine shape, right?
<ttx> I prefer to releasenote "this is how you get past the bug" rather than "we'll probably be fixing it soon". But if soon < release
<ttx> rickspencer3: yes
<rickspencer3> ttx, ack
<tgardner> ttx, the PPA thing will take ogasawara10 minutes to prep and upload
<ttx> tgardner: so we can make a call on the releasenote text at the last minute, ack
<Daviey> I believe it was only one person that had issues with the bug during A1... and that same person found the work around, so i'm not sure it's a *big* concern going from iso to $whatever to get testing in A2.
<rickspencer3> so we can defer this decision to next Wednesday?
<rickspencer3> depending on what are the fact at the time?
<rickspencer3> I'll take that as a "yes"
<cjwatson> rickspencer3: certainly one can downgrade, although it would be fiddly
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, ack
<ttx> +1 from me
<rickspencer3> I think it's best to keep resources focused on fixing bugs in the kernel
<ogasawara> works for me
<ttx> thanks everyone, I'm done
<rickspencer3> if on Wednesday, it's not fixed, then can ogasawara prepare the PPA and then ttx can release note that?
<rickspencer3> I think there is a bot macro for this?
<ogasawara> rickspencer3: sounds good
<ttx> otherwise I'll releasenote: "dist-upgrade before registering your first image"
<ttx> I'll write that down in the bug
<rickspencer3> [AGREED]if on Wednesday bug #588861 is not fixed in kernel, then can ogasawara prepare the PPA and then ttx can release note the PPA, otherwise ttx to release note to dist-upgrade
<MootBot> AGREED received: if on Wednesday bug #588861 is not fixed in kernel, then can ogasawara prepare the PPA and then ttx can release note the PPA, otherwise ttx to release note to dist-upgrade
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) ""pad block corrupted" error when trying to register an image with 2.6.34 kernel" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<rickspencer3> sweet!
 * rickspencer3 rocks the irc bot
<rickspencer3> moving on
<ttx> rickspencer3: beware, you're starting to enjoy it
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]Desktop
<MootBot> New Topic: Desktop
<seb128> hey
<seb128> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<seb128>  
<seb128> We are on track for alpha2, got most of our workitems done and postponed a few to the next iteration
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<seb128> .
<seb128> * specs completed: desktop-maverick-xorg-in-mm dx-m-unity-une-integration vfat-noexec
<seb128> * specs still requiring work on the a2 list: desktop-maverick-easy-wayland-testing desktop-maverick-video-bugs-in-the-kms-world
<seb128> * the previous specs are ppa testing and bug triage work so not blocking alpha2 in any way and we can postpone some items if required
<seb128> .
<seb128> maverick bugs:
<seb128> * bug:594214: "Preferences" and "Setup new device..." options are broken in bluetooth-applet": not investigated yet not a blocker issue either
<seb128> lucid sru bugs:
<seb128> * bug:525807 [upstream] [3.2.1] OOo Slide Show and Fullscreen modes - not full screen under compiz: should be worked next week
<seb128> * bug:578281 Add search plugin for Baidu: not worked yet, our firefox maintainer has been busy with security updates
<seb128>  
<seb128> question: when is the upload line for updates that will go to lucid .1?
<seb128>  
<rickspencer3> seb128, I promised that we would get bug #578281 into 10.04.1!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 578281 in ubufox (Ubuntu Maverick) "Add search plugin for Baidu" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/578281
<seb128> (that's it from me, questions next, then Riddell for Kubuntu)
<seb128> rickspencer3, give me an extra webbrowser maintainer and I will get it fixed for .1! ;-)
<rickspencer3> *sigh*
<seb128> rickspencer3, joke aside, see the question for the upload target for .1
<rickspencer3> I would have to defer to cjwatson
<rickspencer3> can we take this offline?
<seb128> new firefox is available so the security work will be over in the next days
<rickspencer3> ok
<seb128> I think chrisccoulson will be able to work on this issue on time for lucid .1
<rickspencer3> let's figure it out next week, I don't this it's A2 specific
<seb128> right
<Riddell> it's an interesting question to all though, should probably be announced on ubuntu-devel-announce
<ogra> ++
<rickspencer3> [ACTION]rickspencer3 to get someone to announce 10.04.1 timelines
<MootBot> ACTION received: rickspencer3 to get someone to announce 10.04.1 timelines
<rickspencer3> Riddell, is that what you were looking for?
<Riddell> yes
<ogra> freezes rather i guess :)
<rickspencer3> ogra, ack
<rickspencer3> Riddell, Kubuntu?
<Riddell>  * I promoted a load of packages to main so koffice, rekonq, kdevelop, kdeedu and kdenetwork are now in main fully featured, MIRs still needing done
<Riddell>  * plasma-netbook and plasma-desktop are now on the same CD, chosen at load based on screen size, so kubuntu netbook images should be going away soon and kubuntu normal images will want arm builds
<Riddell>  * images are oversized as a result of above, but there's bits we can get rid of
<Riddell>  * arm builds going "slowly, and painfully" or "All good except bindings and edu" depending on your point of view
<Riddell>  * Kubuntu Ninjas are putting their moves on KDE SC 4.5 release candidate tars which are due for release by upstream later today
<ogra> Riddell, with arm do you refer to images or to packages ?
<Riddell> ogra: arm builds refers to packages
<ogra> NCommander will take massive care of the KDE stuff after A2
<Riddell> he's a star
<Riddell> actually he'll be with me at Akademy after alpha 2
<ogra> we're currently all focused on getting our A2 images working, after that there is manpower available for the rest of the world :)
<ogra> yes
<ogra> but he can work remotely :)
<rickspencer3> Riddell, all done?
<cjwatson> upload line: good question, to be honest I am not up to date on the .1 schedule
<rickspencer3> move on?
<ogra> i know he is already looking into it with half an eye
<cjwatson> it should be pretty soon
<Riddell> rickspencer3: move on
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC}Dx
<MootBot> New Topic: [TOPIC}Dx
<davidbarth> hi
<davidbarth> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<cjwatson> upload line> I think it should probably be this time next week
<davidbarth> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-dx-team-maverick-alpha-2.html (not up to date though, i just moved the last w.i. this afternoon)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-dx-team-maverick-alpha-2.html (not up to date though, i just moved the last w.i. this afternoon)
<davidbarth> new this week, we're also putting some fancy release notes for a2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/MaverickAlpha2ReleaseNotes
<davidbarth> now back to the serious stuff
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-app-menubar|dx-m-app-menubar]]
<davidbarth>   * delivered release for a2, including GTK & QT menus support, app. switching, transient windows, shortcuts and dynamic menu items support; lots of those came together in the last 4 days
<davidbarth>   * bug reports piling up though, we're going through that to 1. clean old reports, 2. identify remaining critical issues
<davidbarth>   * landed in universe
<davidbarth>   * agreement to turn the feature on by default on UNE, only if we demonstrate that most reported bugs are fixed by Monday
<davidbarth>   * see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationMenu for how you can help
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-gtk-enhancements|dx-m-gtk-enhancements]]
<davidbarth>   * csd out for  maverick
<davidbarth>   * argb out for a2; will be retested for a3
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-sound-menu-v2|dx-m-sound-menu-v2]]
<davidbarth>   * new release for a2; delivers the app registration and remote control features that were planned
<davidbarth>   * RB, VLC & Amarok enabled to support the latest menu features
<davidbarth>   * generally on track for Maverick
<davidbarth> that's the desktop part
<seb128> "only if we demonstrate that most reported bugs are fixed by Monday" is a "bugs are triaged" rather
<seb128> or "somebody is showing interest for those"
<davidbarth> a human readable summary would say: menubar on the edge, sound is all good, and csd is out
<davidbarth> seb128: right
<davidbarth> now on for the unity part, unity rocks ;)
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-unity-une-integration|dx-m-unity-une-integration]]
<davidbarth>   * New weekly release (now on time), featuring the new files and apps place
<davidbarth>   * Lucid PPA also available at: http://launchpad.net/~canonical-dx-team/+archive/une
<davidbarth> and sadly, the connman menu is still behind:
<davidbarth>  * [[https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-indicator-network|dx-m-indicator-network]]
<davidbarth>   * Prototype Settings UI + some minor changes to the panel indicator released
<davidbarth>   * Weekly batch of backend bugfixes submitted to connman/ofono
<davidbarth>   * *Not* on track for A2 for the UI part, not on track for data gathering / testing; not on track for packaging / integration in Maverick
<davidbarth> for unity: the new places and search feature are on track; the launcher refresh too; the network menu is not
<davidbarth> on the network menu, we're continuing our efforts nonetheless, knowing we have a good fallback plan
<davidbarth> questions?
<rickspencer3> thanks davidbarth
<rickspencer3> moving on
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]RM
<MootBot> New Topic: RM
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]ARM
<MootBot> New Topic: ARM
<ogra> thats me !
 * ogra waves
<ogra> Detailed status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Short Summary:
<ogra> - omap kernel and preinstalled image enablement: omap4 kernel package available, omap3 kernel 594382 was fixed but 597904 broke display output now.
<ogra> - ongoing work on main ftbfs: gobject-introspection was fixed
<ogra>  - KDE/Kubuntu stack still broken due to kdebindings, work ongoing
<ogra> - work towards A2 for preinstalled omap (oem like) netbook images
<ogra> - MIR for jasper-initramfs (595947) is a **critical blocker** grinding us to a full halt wrt image builds
<ogra> ..
<ogra> A2 status:
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogra> ..
<ogra> A2 targeted specs:
<ogra> still only https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/preinstalled-sd-card-images-for-omap
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Blocking bugs:
<ogra> bug 595947
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 595947 in jasper-initramfs (Ubuntu) "MIR for jasper-initramfs" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/595947
<ogra> bug 589624
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589624 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Maverick] omap flavour does not work on beagle XM board" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589624
<ogra> bug 594382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 594382 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Wake up daisy chain activation failed on omap3" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594382
<ogra> ..
<ogra> General:
<ogra> - ARM team would like to propose to rethink the way of MIR handling and to have a discussion about this at the sprint, currently the backlog grows constantly while the MIR team shrinks.
<rickspencer3> ogra, I think the MIR situation is under discussion, on a @u-devel thread, is it not?
<asac> didnt send the mail yet
<ogra> oh, i missed that if it is
<asac> but ogra knows that we are working on that :)
<ogra> i just promised the team to bring it up here :)
<seb128> there was an email about it?
<rickspencer3> in other words, this is a BIG topic, and I think we probably don't want to try to resolve in the 6 minutes left for this meeting ;)
<rickspencer3> ogra, we hear you though
<ogra> rickspencer3, "rethink the way of MIR handling and to have a discussion about this at the sprint"
<asac> ogra: your team suffered the least so far i tell you :)
<ogra> i didnt talk about this meeting ;)
<rickspencer3> ogra, ack
<ogra> asac, well, we wont make A2 due to it
<rickspencer3> I was really just trying to head of discussion ;)
<asac> ogra: lets talk offline. there is _no_ reason to not make A2 because of that
<rickspencer3> [ACTION]asac to seed MRI disussion on @u-devel, all to discuss at sprint
<MootBot> ACTION received: asac to seed MRI disussion on @u-devel, all to discuss at sprint
<asac> thx
<ogra> thanks
<rickspencer3> ogra, awesome, seems ARM is quite on track
<rickspencer3> ready to move on?
<ogra> any non MIR questions ?
<ogra> if not, i'm done :)
<rickspencer3> k
<asac> ogra: do you have capacity to do the une-launcher spec?
<rickspencer3> moving on
<rickspencer3> oops
<ogra> asac, i can tell you after A2
<asac> ok
<ogra> we might though :)
<asac> move on
<rickspencer3> ok
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic: MOTU
<rickspencer3> is this normally ScottK ?
<asac> yes
<rickspencer3> moving on
<rickspencer3> [TOPIC]Downstream Deriviatives
<MootBot> New Topic: Downstream Deriviatives
<asac> thats me ;) (helping out why jamie is on vac)
<rickspencer3> arm-m-tool-chain-selection (Linaro) - 0% complete
<ScottK> Yes.
<ScottK> Nothing exciting to report.
<ScottK> Now that DIF is passed, we can work on banging things into shape.
<rickspencer3> asac, robbiew had ^ on the agenda
<asac> rickspencer3: that spec (according to robbiew) is doko material
<rickspencer3> I see
<asac> besides from that we have
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinaroTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinaroTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<asac> and a bunch of burndowns:
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-foundations.html
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-foundations-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-foundations-maverick-alpha-2.html
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-infrastructure.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-infrastructure.html
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-infrastructure-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-infrastructure-maverick-alpha-2.html
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-user-platforms.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-user-platforms.html
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-user-platforms-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/arm-user-platforms-maverick-alpha-2.html
<asac> so to give a summary:
<asac>  * Overall: behind on alpha-2 work items, but catching up now that planning is finished. * Foundations: good progress on cross compiling base system spec * Infrastructure: approved specs; image builder spec stalled due to LexBuilder open sourcing; archive specs working with Launchpad guys
<asac>  * User Platforms: maverick hadless image set-up; qt-qws packaging finished and call for testing; clutk porting sgtalled - looking for opengl ES 2. shader expert; worked on getting a X11 driver cookbook up for ARM drivers; telepony packaging started
<asac> ouch
<asac> * Overall: behind on alpha-2 work items, but catching up now that planning is finished.
<asac>  * Foundations: good progress on cross compiling base system spec
<asac>  * Infrastructure: approved specs; image builder spec stalled due to LexBuilder open sourcing; archive specs working with Launchpad guys
<asac>  * User Platforms: maverick headless image set-up; qt-qws packaging finished and call for testing; clutk porting stalled - looking for opengl ES 2. shader expert; worked on getting a X11 driver cookbook up for ARM drivers; telepony packaging started
<asac> and as already rasied a request for help on:
<asac> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/arm-m-une-launcher-on-arm
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/arm-m-une-launcher-on-arm
<asac> that spec isnt that critical for linaro, while its probably critical for ubuntu on arm
<asac> so i feel bad about it maybe getting not done because we own it ... at best we would move that to a shared ubuntu desktop/arm place
<rickspencer3> asac, in any case, there is no point in having the work items targeted for A2 if there is no hope of them getting done
<rickspencer3> in general, perhaps you should postpone work items across the board to get at least near the trend lines?
<asac> yes ... we will do that
<rickspencer3> asac, I guess jamie will drive that?
<asac> the postponing? no. each team would drive that. i will carry that forward
<asac> of course jamie is supposed to ensure its happening ... but he is gone for another week or two
<rickspencer3> [ACTION]asac to work with teams to postpone Linaro work items to get teams to trend lines
<MootBot> ACTION received: asac to work with teams to postpone Linaro work items to get teams to trend lines
<asac> thx
<asac> any other questions besids some more whipping?
<asac> ;)
<rickspencer3> asac, who should own figuring out if we are going to do this:
<rickspencer3> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/arm-m-une-launcher-on-arm
<rickspencer3> ?
<asac> rickspencer3: ogra said he would decided at a3 ... so maybe he?
<rickspencer3> well, if ogra says they can't do it ... then what?
<ogra> we're getting a new team member in 10 days or so
<ogra> so there is a possibility that we have the manpower
<asac> rickspencer3: i dont know. for linaro it could be dropped. but i think for ubuntu its high or essential
<rickspencer3> asac, in that case that ARM can't do it, I think you need to make the call whether we postpone to maverick+1 or if you can find someone else to do it
<asac> at least a lightweight variant for that spec needs to happen to have a good experience
<rickspencer3> but I don't think we should let it dangle
<ogra> rickspencer3, its only dangling for a week
<ogra> i can respond next meeting to the request
<rickspencer3> fine then
<asac> rickspencer3: if nothing is getting done on this spec for maverick, then the default ARM image will fail to the default X session
<rickspencer3> [ACTION]ogra to accept https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/arm-m-une-launcher-on-arm for ARM team, or to postpone to maverick+1
<MootBot> ACTION received: ogra to accept https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/arm-m-une-launcher-on-arm for ARM team, or to postpone to maverick+1
<asac> we need at least a lightweight solution
<ogra> its just that we dont have a single working arm kernel yet so cant buiuld images and i want to have spare cycles in the team once we build them
<ogra> since i expect a good bunch of bugs
<asac> so ... i think it definitly should be move to another team. even if it gets dropped from maverick
<ogra> we're kind of blocked on all fronts in arm atm and once we are released we'll drown in bugs i fear
<asac> so can i set assignee to ubuntu-arm team and then you decide what to do?
<ogra> asac, your spec is about the automatic detection though
<ogra> the lightweight session will be there
<ogra> thats covered in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-m-lightweight-panel-for-efl
<asac> ogra: it has automatic detection work items, but the general spirit is: get to a state where you can log in after boot and get at least some desktop (defaulting to efl would be the light weight variant)
 * ogra doesnt think *that* needs a spec since it is ubuntus default session on arm
<rickspencer3> this seems like it needs to be sorted for A3 planning
<ogra> yes
<ogra> offline likely
<rickspencer3> asac, ogra, can you guys get this sorted by next meeting?
<asac> ogra: ltes take that offline. its not the default. lucid default did the fallback. so now it just fails iirc
<ogra> yes
<asac> ack
<asac> give us an action
<asac> thanks
<ogra> asac, i dont have working images to verify :)
<rickspencer3> ok, moving on
<ogra> so i wouldnt even know it fails
<rickspencer3> next is ...
<rickspencer3> 10.04.1 LTS Agenda
<rickspencer3> I think we already covered this by saying that we need to get our act together ASAP
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PointReleaseProcess is the rubric for this
<rickspencer3> seb128, cjwatson, desktop and foundations each have Critical/High bugs
<rickspencer3> 10.04.1 is on July 29th
<seb128> right
<rickspencer3> that puts us at the end of this timeframe:
<rickspencer3> Release minus 2 months:
<rickspencer3> Process stable release updates as normal. For hardware-enabling fixes, the package should be tested on the affected hardware prior to submitting to sign-off for -proposed.
<rickspencer3> Discuss the possibility of a Canonical press release for the point release with Gerry Carr.
<rickspencer3> Liaise with IS, QA, and certification to arrange for testing resources.
<rickspencer3>  
<rickspencer3> and hair-raisingly close to this one
<rickspencer3> Release minus 1 month:
<rickspencer3> In coordination with QA, verify that all candidate bugs are fixed.
<rickspencer3> Upload a new base-files package to -proposed to bump the lsb_release description (example for 6.06.2). Do not change the DISTRIB_RELEASE value, which is used programmatically by third-party software.
<rickspencer3> If the kernel or associated modules have been changed, upload debian-installer after all the binaries are in place. If the ABI changed, make sure to take account of this throughout debian-installer/build/config/ and in the installer seed for all flavours being built.
<rickspencer3> Notify Evan Dandrea to update umenu and wubi for the point release.
<rickspencer3> Change cdimage/bin/make-web-indices, cdimage/bin/publish-release, and debian-cd/CONF.sh to use the new release version number.
<rickspencer3> Change cdimage/bin/run-germinate and debian-cd/CONF.sh to build from -proposed temporarily.
<rickspencer3> Build CD images (which will be published on cdimage.ubuntu.com) and smoke-test in some convenient environment to check for obvious failures.
<rickspencer3> "
<rickspencer3>  In coordination with QA, verify that all candidate bugs are fixed."
<cjwatson> the upload/change items there are all very easy, BTW
<rickspencer3> I am skeptical that all candidate bugs are fixed
<cjwatson> kind of five minutes each
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, can you please spare 1 hour on Monday to help me reason this out?
<rickspencer3> then I can do my best to get everyone on the train
<cjwatson> absolutely
<rickspencer3> looking over this list, I feel that the current 10.0.4.1 date is achievable
<rickspencer3> any specific comments, questions, concerns, discussion regarding 10.04.1 atm?
<rickspencer3> going ...
<rickspencer3> going ...
<rickspencer3> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:18.
<rickspencer3> thanks everyone!
<seb128> thanks ;-)
<rickspencer3> sorry the meeting ran over :/
<rickspencer3> lesson here is, don't let rickspencer3 run the release meeting!
<seb128> rickspencer3, nice try to avoid getting that task again but I'm not sure that's going to work ;-)
<ara> it is schedule to run for one hour and a half, isn't it?
<rickspencer3> am I that transparent?
<rickspencer3> ara are you saying I have another 12 minutes to harangue  you?
<rickspencer3> in that case, I have pet bugs you could look at
<ara> thanks, but no, thanks
<rickspencer3> :)
<ara> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-27
<topyli> sorry for being so late
<jussi> tsimpson: topyli Pici hi
<tsimpson> \o
<topyli> hi. we still meeting. i was just now able to come
<jussi> right, so shall we do this?
<jussi> we have 3, which is enoguh
 * topyli peruses agenda quickly
<tsimpson> it's empty
<topyli> yeah
<jussi> any bugs?
<jussi> err any new bugs...?
<tsimpson> nope
<topyli> the sticky sticky ones only :)
<jussi> right, so anyone here that wants to bring something up?
<jussi> who wants to write something to the list/wiki that nothing happened...
<jussi> ?
<jussi> ie. "minutes"
<tsimpson> I suppose we could quickly go over the policy on dual-cloaks
<jussi> Id like nhandler to be here for that
<topyli> indeed
<jussi> @random jussi tsimpson topyli
<ubottu> jussi
<tsimpson> ha!
<jussi> doh!
<jussi> looks like its me
<topyli> heh
<jussi> I still dont know how the wiki works... but I guess Ill learn
<jussi> right, so thats it today?
<topyli> just update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/NEXTMEETING and reports/Current basically
<jussi> If I work it out correctly its the 13th?
<jussi> in anycase, we are done.
<topyli> yeah
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-20
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> hello!
<jjohansen> hey
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:07. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of any previous action items
<kees> \o
<jdstrand> there are none from our last meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I have a pending update
<jdstrand> a lot of email to get through (still behind)
<jdstrand> I've got another training session this week
<jdstrand> I need to prepare for the rally
<jdstrand> and (finally, for real) talk with jjohansen about dbus/apparmor
 * jdstrand hugs jjohansen 
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jjohansen> hehe
<jdstrand> kees: you're up (and welcome back!)
<kees> thanks!
<kees> well, I will be catching up for a while. I'm also on triage, and will be continuing to review some of the kernel CVE states with apw
<kees> things are in good shape overall, though. lots of stuff in pending. :)
<kees> that's it from me.
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> my turn?
<mdeslaur> hehe
<mdeslaur> So, I'm off thursday and friday
<jdstrand> kees: re pending> that's great news. I know everyone has been working hard on that
<jdstrand> :)
<mdeslaur> until then, I plan on figuring out how to test the logrotate updates I've prepared
<mdeslaur> and will continue going down the list of CVEs
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
<sbeattie> I have an issue to followup with upstream on re: last week's openjdk update
<sbeattie> I also have 2 embargoed issues that I'm working on.
<sbeattie> and I need to spend a bit of time prepping for the rally.
<sbeattie> That's it for me.
<jdstrand> micahg: you're next
<micahg> I have Mozilla updates this week (hopefully going out tomorrow) including the Firefox 5 transition in Natty
<micahg> I expect a chromium update this week since it's been a while
<micahg> then webkitgtk 1.2.7 time permitting
<micahg> I think that's it
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> as micahg mentioned, he is doing a mozilla 5.0 transition in natty this week. it would be good if all of us could be running the new firefox packages in -proposed (I mention -proposed cause there are langpacks in -proposed hat aren't in the ubuntu-mozilla-security ppa)
<jdstrand> I started testing this morning, and it seems solid
<jdstrand> I think sbeattie has been running it for a while
<jdstrand> anyhoo, feel free to test :)
<kees> cool, will do
<jdstrand> (thanks for that sbeattie)
<sbeattie> yeah been running it since last weekend, I got it through -proposed.
<sbeattie> err s/weekend/week/
<jdstrand> one thing that I noticed over the weekend was arkose (http://www.stgraber.org/2011/06/14/app-containing-on-the-modern-linux-desktop/) which is stgraber's lxc work
<jdstrand> it sounds interesting and I'd like for our team to talk with stgraber and wendar next week tolearn more about it, see how it can work with apparmor, and what we as apparmor upstream can learn or take from his approach. also to see how this might tie into ARB
<jdstrand> I don't expect any new work items per se, but maybe info sharing and inspiration
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I noticed that you marked the apparmor profiles wiki page as 'done'. where is that?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: http://wiki.apparmor.net/index.php/Main_Page#Profiles
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: cool-- do you have a plan on when you are going to announce it?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: nope
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: would it be worthwhile talking about that next week?
<mdeslaur> I was debating whether it should be on a standalone page, so the url will be better once I add it to the user space tools
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: I can add it to the schedule if you'd like
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks. +1 for standalone page, but we can discuss more next week
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: added to schedule
<jdstrand> cool
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: I'm imagining as things flesh out, a standalone page will be needed, but for now it's sufficient.
<jdstrand> that's it from me for now
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: well, I'd like to get a URL that will stay the same for the user space tools
<jdstrand> does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> oh, I forgot to mention I'll be going through applicants this week
<jdstrand> alrighty then
<jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, jjohansen: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<mdeslaur> thanks
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:30.
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> woo, thanks!
<maco> persia, Laney, bdrung: ping?
<bdrung> o/
<stgraber> pong :)
<lynxman> stgraber: thanks for the pointer btw
<jamespage> o/
<stgraber> np
<lynxman> o/ everyone
<maco> need 4 for quorum right?
<stgraber> yep
<stgraber> cody-somerville: ping
<negronjl> hi all
<maco> thanks. i cant remember all the members of both boards im on :)
<stgraber> maco: poked geser in -devel
<stgraber> Laney said he wouldn't be around, hopefully one of the others will show up
<cody-somerville> I'm here.
<stgraber> yeah!
<maco> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:07. The chair is maco.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<maco> Welcome to the Developer Membership Board meeting
<maco> Agenda is here:
<maco> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<maco> oh good, it doesnt mind lowercase
<maco> [topic] James Page's application for Server package set
<MootBot> New Topic:  James Page's application for Server package set
<jamespage> Hi All
<jamespage> details of my app are here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JamesPage/ServerDeveloperApplication
<maco> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JamesPage/ServerDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JamesPage/ServerDeveloperApplication
<maco> Want to introduce yourself a bit?
<jamespage> OK; so I've been contributing to Ubuntu as a member of the Ubuntu Server team since September last year
<jamespage> (shortly before I started to work for Canonical)
<bdrung> jamespage: i see java in there. are you interested in Eclipse? ;)
<stgraber> As a reminder, here's the server package set: http://paste.ubuntu.com/629984/
<cody-somerville> stgraber, kudos
<jamespage> a bdrung points out quite a bit about java in my app; and this is my background before I started contributing to Ubuntu
<maco> stgraber: would be nice if this was exposed in LP's UI :-/
<jamespage> (and yes I am interested in eclipse)
<bdrung> stgraber: ant1.7 is in there, but not ant?
<stgraber> bdrung: apparently :) some packagesets are weird. You'll also note that tomcat isn't in there...
<bdrung> jamespage: we need more manpower for eclipse. feel free to join #debian-java on OFTC and/or #eclipse-linux on freenode after the meeting if you are interested
<jamespage> bdrung: ack - I'll drop by
<stgraber> maco: indeed. At the moment you need to use edit_acl.py from lp:~ubuntu-archive/ubuntu-archive-tools/trunk/ unless someone added it somewhere on LP and I missed it :)
<bdrung> stgraber: why is gimp in there?
<stgraber> bdrung: oh, fun :) no idea
<stgraber> bdrung: I guess we may want to poke cjwatson to get that package set cleaned up a bit :)
<stgraber> bdrung: and make sure whatever jamespage needs is in there (if it's in the ubuntu-server scope)
<geser> I asked once about gimp already as I spotted it too
<cjwatson> it's autogenerated
<cjwatson> I'm not going to do single-package cleanups
<geser> IIRC it is correct but I don't remember the reason, might be a (build-)dependency
<bdrung> afk for a few minutes (there is a bothersome interrupt)
<cjwatson> gimp will be there for (build-)dependency closure reasons
<maco> stgraber: yeah i know, but for example i was trying to find a list of all the package sets (and i thought someone had pastebinned it at an earlier meeting but couldnt find it), and a page to point people to "pick the one that fits" rather than "get this script and do a thing" (which i couldnt get it to do anyway)...
<jamespage> so although my core competency is Java; I have worked extensively with non-Java technology on Linux as well
<cody-somerville> jamespage, Are most of the uploads that have been sponsored for you thus far been just bug fixes?
<stgraber> cjwatson: is there any documentation on how the package sets are currently autogenerated? (or the scripts used for that)
<jamespage> cody-somerville: yes they have; you should see more new packages from me this cycle whilst I work to get jenkins into the archive
<cjwatson> in particular, one of the gimp libraries is a build-dependency of gutenprint, which is supported as part of print-server
<cjwatson> stgraber: just mailing list stuff really
<jamespage> I did do one new package last cycle to support the server team effort packaging cobbler
<cody-somerville> jamespage, How familiar are you with versioning of SRU packages?
<cody-somerville> s/packages/uploads/
<jamespage> cody-somerville: so I have done a few SRU's; I followed the versioning advice as advised in the documented process
<jamespage> i.e. .X version ontop of the release version
 * bdrung is back.
<jamespage> there are a few examples with links on my application
<cody-somerville> jamespage, If you were doing an SRU to upload a number of bug fixes from the development focus, how might you version an upload to several older releases? Feel free to create and describe an entirely imaginary situation that demonstrate your strong understanding.
<cody-somerville> jamespage, and for kicks, assume that two of the releases you wish to perform an SRU for have the same version of the package.
<jamespage> so I would identify the latest point release in each of the older releases (including the ones which have the same version of the package)
<jamespage> prepare a updated packages based on the branch for each release; using the currentpointrelease+1 increment on the version number and identifying the -proposed pocket for the release
 * jamespage takes a second to thing about the instances with the same version
<jamespage> so as I've never actually come across this situation the first thing I would do is seek guidance
<jamespage> however I would have thought that I would need to prepare point release updates for each instance (again marking for -proposed); unless its possible to prepare it once and then sync to the second release with the same version of the package
<bdrung> you need to prepare an update for each instance
<jamespage> I thought so; I was not aware of any such sync process
<bdrung> what's the problem in this case? can you imagine a solution?
<bdrung> additional question: which version would you use for SRUing 1.2-3?
<jamespage> so the issue I could see with the releases with the same version would be around the updates not getting through to proposed at the same time; I could see that this could create some odd versioning issues say if 1.2-3ubuntu1.1 got into an earlier release prior to it hitting a later release
<jamespage> I would probably look to ensure that the verification process followed made sure that these drop's hit at the same/similar time into -updates
<cody-somerville> jamespage, You wouldn't be able to upload the same version to the later release. It would be rejected.
<stgraber> are you familiar with how archive.ubuntu.com works? specifically /pool? if so, you should see the problem in what you just said :)
<jamespage> right; so using the same release number in both of the updates create a conflict hence the rejection
<stgraber> yep
<jamespage> stgraber: its not an area I have alot of experience in
<stgraber> so how would you work around that limitation? to have the same update hit two versions of ubuntu while avoiding the version conflict and without breaking dist-upgrade to the next relesae?
<stgraber> *release
<jamespage> so understanding that constraint I would use a lower point release number in the earlier release
<jamespage> if the base version was 1.2-3ubuntu1 I would use say 1.2-3ubuntu1.1.1 in the earlier version
<jamespage> and 1.2-3ubuntu1.2.1 in the later version to avoid the versioning conflict
<cody-somerville> jamespage, what if the version after has 1.2-3ubuntu1.2 already?
<jamespage> infact you could use the release numbers to good effect here
<cody-somerville> (s/version/next release/
<jamespage> 1.2-3ubuntu1.2.10.04 and 1.2-3ubuntu1.2.10.10 say
<maco> bingo
<maco> well, move the .2 to the end, but yeah
<jamespage> right - gotcha
<bdrung> jamespage: which version would you use for SRUing 1.2-3?
<jamespage> and then that can be increments as required
<jamespage> 1.2-3ubuntu0.1
<maco> XubuntuY.10.04.1 and XubuntuY.10.10.1 is how https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Update_the_packaging shows
<maco> (bookmark that link, btw, very handy)
<jamespage> or in the instance of dual versions ubuntu0.10.04.1 and ubuntu0.10.10.1
<bdrung> i always forget the layout of the security changelog entry
<cody-somerville> Alternatively, I think I've seen the use of tilde and the release codename + X
<jamespage> maco- thanks for the link
<maco> cody-somerville: that's for backports, i believe
<jamespage> (that hangs of the SRU page right?)
<maco> hopefully the sru page links to it...
<jamespage> yes it does - just checked
<cody-somerville> maco, I think I've seen similar notation be used when there are already 'point releases' so you can't just shift the the numbers around
<maco> cody-somerville: also, it'll create a problem when we loop from z back to a
<cody-somerville> maco, if the upstream versions has never changed, yes :P
<maco> cody-somerville: between z and a it might not, assuming we don't go into a new charset :P
<bdrung> using the year won't lead to problem for my generation (2100)
<cody-somerville> jamespage, Do you collaborate and interact frequently with community developers at all?
<jamespage> cody-somerville: so I do hang out on ubuntu-server and ubuntu-devel; although I would have to admit that my interaction with community developer in Ubuntu has not been large
<jamespage> on Java related packaging stuff I have had more interaction with the debian-java team
<maco> done with questions yet?
<cody-somerville> No further questions from me.
<bdrung> yes
<Daviey> I would like to add that James Page does indeed rock.  His recent NEW packages which i sponsored into Oneiric were faultless.  Sailed through the queue.  He is pushing his work into Debian concurrently.  He is a good cookie.
 * stgraber is ready to vote
<maco> [vote] James Page's server package set application
<MootBot> Please vote on:  James Page's server package set application.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Daviey> (Also noticed him working with various upstreams to get them to resolve licencing issues.)
<bdrung> +1 (likes the Debian involvement)
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<maco> cody-somerville, geser?
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<maco> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<maco> congrats jamespage!
<bdrung> jamespage: congrats
<Daviey> \o/
<jamespage> thankyou!
<maco> [topic] Marc Cluet's Contributing Developer application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Marc Cluet's Contributing Developer application
<lynxman> hi everyone
<lynxman> my application is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcCluet/UbuntuContributingDeveloper
<maco> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcCluet/UbuntuContributingDeveloper
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcCluet/UbuntuContributingDeveloper
<maco> lynxman: please introduce yourself
<lynxman> I'm Marc Cluet, I'm working for Canonical in Corporate Services
<lynxman> With negronjl we form the Systems Integration team
<lynxman> Our goal is to integrate into Ubuntu new solutions for servers both cloud and metal based
<lynxman> Right now our main project is Orchestra
<lynxman> This has allowed me to collaborate both with the communities surrounding puppet and mcollective and at the same time Puppet Labs
<lynxman> I've also registered patches and pushed new versions for mcollective and rabbitmq plugins
<lynxman> (all through sponsorization)
<lynxman> Right now finishing the last details to get also mcollective-plugins in the Oneiric archive
<lynxman> My collaborations are mainly with the Ubuntu Server team
<stgraber> In you "What I like least in Ubuntu" section, you mention the review process. Do you think the patch pilot program is helping improve that or are we still missing something?
<stgraber> *your
<lynxman> stgraber: It does help, I do still think that the big problem is not enough man hours to review all the packages in the queue
<lynxman> stgraber: To help with that process I've also subscribed to ~ubuntu-sponsors to get better reviews of my work and learn faster, trying to commit as few errors as it can be
<bdrung> i see only one package appearing on https://launchpad.net/~lynxman/+uploaded-packages - do you have pointers to the bugs that were sponsored?
<lynxman> bdrung: Let me look for them, one sec
<Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rabbitmq-stomp/2.4.1+hg20110525-0ubuntu1
<Daviey> DEBEMAIL mismatch :(
<lynxman> bdrung: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mcollective/1.2.0-0ubuntu1 was completely done on my own, with sponsorship from zul
<bdrung> lynxman: it fails to build. how can you ensure that this won't happen again?
<lynxman> bdrung: I always build all my new packages first locally then on a PPA, run through Lintian checks to make sure all is good
<lynxman> bdrung: once the packages pass all the checks I submit them for sponsoring
<Ampelbein> lynxman: you should go to https://launchpad.net/~marc-cluet and request to merge the two accounts so all your work does actually show under your account.
<bdrung> how do you build it locally? with debuild?
<lynxman> bdrung: I used to use dpkg-buildpackage but now I'm using debuild that runs lintian at the end
<lynxman> Ampelbein: thank you for pointing that out, I'll make sure to ask for the account merge :)
<bdrung> lynxman: i recommend to use pbuilder / sbuild or similar before the upload (or instead of using a PPA). this gives a minimal chroot similar to the official builders
<lynxman> bdrung: I'm also using pbuilder or sbuild for a clean chroot, learning all the tools of the trade
<lynxman> bdrung: jinx :)
<bdrung> what's your relation to Debian?
<cody-somerville> lynxman, Do you collaborate and interact frequently with community developers at all?
<lynxman> bdrung: I had no relation with debian before except personal friendships with some of the debian packagers, i also did run some serves on debian and submitted bug reports
<lynxman> cody-somerville: I do specially when I'm creating packages for the software that the community is based around, this has been the case with mcollective in special
<lynxman> cody-somerville: I hang regularly in the #mcollective channel, submit bugs upstream and help other developers and users to smooth their experience of mcollective in Ubuntu
<lynxman> cody-somerville: I also hang both in #ubuntu-server and #ubuntu-devel regularly
<cody-somerville> lynxman, So mostly upstream collaboration?
<lynxman> cody-somerville: yes
<lynxman> cody-somerville: I do want to try to push the rabbitmq plugins to Debian as well since there's no maintainer for them right now
<bdrung> lynxman: what do you think about getting packages into Debian first and getting changes into Debian?
<cody-somerville> lynxman, Do you have any examples of collaboration with Ubuntu MOTU, Ubuntu Core Developers, or Debian Developers that you're proud of and can share with us?
<lynxman> cody-somerville: yes, I've had interaction with smoser adding features to cloud-init
<lynxman> cody-somerville: also collaborated very closely with zul, kirkland and Daviey for both mcollective and rabbitmq plugins
<cody-somerville> lynxman, Was that work you did as part of your job?
<cody-somerville> (if it was, its not a strike against you - I'm just curious).
<lynxman> cody-somerville: part of it was, but I also submitted more useful features or patches that were out of my project requirements
<lynxman> cody-somerville: specially for the mcollective-provisioner, I've been collaborating very closely with RI Pienaar (Volcane on Freenode) on that piece of code on my free time
<lynxman> cody-somerville: I also want to get the rabbitmq plugins in Debian so mcollective can work well in debian (and replace activemq with rabbitmq there)
<lynxman> cody-somerville: so I expect my work in Ubuntu making mcollective work smoothly to benefit Debian too
<bdrung> i have no more questions
 * stgraber is ready to vote
<lynxman> cody-somerville: all of this is extra curricular to my work, which is just to integrate mcollective into Orchestra and Ubuntu
<maco> everyone else ready to vote?
<maco> [vote] Marc Cluet for contributing developer
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Marc Cluet for contributing developer.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<maco> everybody waiting for someone else to go first?
<bdrung> +1 for ubuntu-contributor
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1 (sorry got distracted)
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cody-somerville> -1 - Although on the right path, I don't think lynxman meets the minimum standards per current precedent for contributing developer.
<MootBot> -1 received from cody-somerville. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<maco> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 2
<robbiew> cody-somerville: "minimum standards per current precedent for contributing developer"?...really?  lol
<maco> split vote...how do these work again?
<maco> i remember one meeting ending in a debate on how split votes go
<maco> (a few years ago)
<kirkland> where are these current precedents?  are they objectively documented?
<stgraber> maco: IIRC he needs 4 +1s. (but that's really IIRC :))
<Daviey> stgraber: based on what ratio?
<bdrung> 4 out of 7 is enough
<bdrung> => more than 50%
<maco> stgraber: yeah the debate i remember was "does it need to come out positive or does it need to come out to quorum-number-of-+1-votes?"
<stgraber> Daviey: DMB has 7 members
<kirkland> there's only 5 votes
<kirkland> 3 out of 5 is 60%
<highvoltage> hmm? didn't it used to work that someone needs a final 'score' of +4?
 * micahg thought the requirement was +4, but that just comes from an outsider observer
<stgraber> I also remember us asking the members who couldn't make it to vote on the mailing-list
<Daviey> wow, this uncertainity is quite unfair to put on a potential contributing developer who is clearly waiting on the edge of his seat.
<kirkland> highvoltage: that sounds reasonable, when 7 sitting council members actually attend and vote
<bdrung> quorum-number-of-+1-votes is stronger than positive
<kirkland> +3 -1 = +2, positive, no?
<bdrung> IIRC, the other DMB members where asked to vote per email
<cody-somerville> The vote can be taken to mailing list to ask the other members to vote. If they both +1 then the applicant is accepted AFAICT.
<maco> cody-somerville: thatd work
<bdrung> one +1 would be enough
<maco> kirkland: the debate is whether that's enough. majority of quorum v. majority of board
<maco> when this came up in '08 or '09, i remember crimsun mentioning how the MC handled it, but its been long enough ive forgotten again
<cody-somerville> bdrung, How so? That would only bring the vote to +3. +4 is required.
<bdrung> cody-somerville: that would bring us to 4x +1 and 1x -1
<bdrung> 4x +1 is enough even if 3x -1 are there, isn't it?
<cody-somerville> bdrung, -1 cancels out one of the +1s as we've discussed and agreed before IIRC.
<maco> cody-somerville: but then you still end up with the majority of the entire board having voted +1
<maco> we need to write down how this works
<kirkland> maco: I think it's sad that a fraction of the board shows up for the meeting that candidates clearly work toward and prepare for
<maco> kirkland: quorum is 4. we'd never have a meeting if all 7 had to be free every time, especially with timezones
<highvoltage> kirkland: you should replace board members who stay away for two consecutive meetings without apologies!
<kirkland> maco: and a single down vote can take a candidate down
<cody-somerville> maco, I move that we take this discussion to the mailing list. We can more easily bring up prior discussion + votes there.
<Daviey> *sigh*
<kirkland> maco: particularly when that downvote is quite predictably linked to @canonical.com addresses
<Daviey> geser: Would you like to expand on your +0?
<RoAkSoAx> ~/win 3
<maco> kirkland: i dont think there's any sort of pattern to suggest that @canonical folks are "predictably" downvoted
<maco> [action] Conclude Marc Cluet's vote on Permissions mailing list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Conclude Marc Cluet's vote on Permissions mailing list
<lynxman> thank you guys for your time, I'll keep an eye on the mailing list traffic for the final vote
<maco> [action] Figure out majority-of-quorum versus majority-of-board and document it somewhere
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Figure out majority-of-quorum versus majority-of-board and document it somewhere
<maco> and now that it's been an hour and a half...
<maco> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:31.
<stgraber> thanks!
<Daviey> sad.
<bdrung> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Logs is not up-to-date
<stgraber> I still think we should get persia and Laney to vote on lynxman's application
<stgraber> bdrung: how so? (still waiting for wiki to load :))
<stgraber> oh, right, forgot to add a link to the minutes of last meeting ... why do we have to update so many pages?
<bdrung> the latest entry is 2011-05-09
<stgraber> I already added our last meeting to the team reports...
<bdrung> we need some tools doing all the annoying stuff
<cody-somerville> +1
<geser> Daviey: sure, mostly the short time of contributions (and the few sponsored uploads, but I just see that through the account merging some more uploads appeared), so my vote would be +0.5 (I'm still on the edge)
<maco> stgraber: i'm emailing the Permissions list right now so persia and Laney can vote
<micahg> kirkland: please keep in mind the DMB is staffed by volunteers and people try their best to attend
<Daviey> geser: Thanks. Appreciated.
<stgraber> bdrung: updated
<stgraber> maco: thanks
<bdrung> found a +3 vote in http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/01/31/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:16
<bdrung> which was continued via email
<geser> stgraber: I started the log page because I needed several time to look up something in a log of a previous meeting and had to count backwards to find the date of a previous meeting to be able to find the log in irclogs.u.c
<stgraber> geser: ok, I just wasn't aware of it :) I'm adding it to the post-meeting todolist so hopefully we won't forget about it
<stgraber> that's if the wiki finally lets me edit the DMB agenda page ...
<maco> email sent
<stgraber> ok, updated post-meeting todolist
<Laney> I find the second guessing and sideline sniping to be rather disappointing.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-21
<sabdfl> hello all
<MooDoo> Afternoon
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/ has one item as far as I can see, highvolt1ge around?
<sabdfl> dholbach: are we gathering today?
<dholbach> sabdfl, we are, sorry - it slipped my mind
<dholbach> let me try to round up the others
<dholbach> I pinged everyone - I'd say let's get started - they can read backlog if necessary
<sabdfl> dholbach: the only item I can see is:
<sabdfl> sabdfl veto process
<dholbach> highvolt1ge is in .ca now, so he might be better suited by one of the 21UTC meetings
<dholbach> the only other thing I'd like to bring up is: a reminder about https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00008.html (oneiric restaffing)
<sabdfl> which is really about separating fact from fiction as to whether there is a firm view expressed by me on a particular issue
<sabdfl> and documenting that view, and discussion around it
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/talk
 * dholbach reads up
<sabdfl> i'm entirely open to the idea of keeping track of such decisions publicly, both for transparency and also to avoid some of the misuse of "Mark said..." that occasionally takes place
<sabdfl> sometimes i hear about surprising decisions i apparently took from other people who have a friend that told them... ;-)
<sabdfl> i don't think it's just me, though
<dholbach> haha :)
<sabdfl> i think it would be useful if team leads and others could express a definitive view and record that in LP
<sabdfl> so, for example, if it's a Foundations issue, then the comment of Colin or Steve L could be recorded as the "definitive project view" till further notice
<persia> Does it need to be LP?  Would the wiki work as well?  It has attribution as part of the info pages for anything written.
<sabdfl> i often see a bug with a firm view from someone I would consider authoritative, be it cjwatson or mpt or mdke or someone else, but that is just one comment among many and newcomers may not realise it's the binding opinion
<sabdfl> persia: for big heavy things the wiki would be fine, but a lot of this sort of decision making happens in the bug tracker
<persia> Makes sense.
<dholbach> I'm just not sure in which cases this needs to be "tagged" or "marked" as "definitive project view"
<sabdfl> i.e. "the official reason we are moving to grub2 and will not support XYZ is..."
<dholbach> sabdfl, mdke, mpt, cjwatson and others make decisions 500 times a day and in 99.9% of cases it's fairly uncontroversial :)
<sabdfl> i agree - this is just for the cases where it *is* controversial and debate will continue, so you want to say to someone new to the bug "btw, this is the person who made this call, and here's their rationale"
<sabdfl> it's never going to *stop* commentary on controversial bugs
<cjwatson> I often find myself saying "but this is just my personal opinion" or something, although it's pretty clunky
<persia> I think it's different when someone makes a decision in day-to-day activity, as opposed to taking a decision to end a controversial discussion.
<sabdfl> but it would make for improved clarity on the decision maker and rationale
<sabdfl> hey cjwatson, didn't mean to draw you into the discussion :-) but glad for your feedback
<cjwatson> heh, that's OK, I have long-running tests in progress
<sabdfl> i think in most cases we are pretty good at knowing, inside the project, who a natural decision-maker is
<popey> sorry I'm late
<cjwatson> definitive project views are often usefully expressed by editing the bug description, I find, although a lot of people forget about that
<sabdfl> but for someone who stumbles into an issue and joins the discussion, that's not clear at all
<dholbach> if the bug description can be "locked", I think it'd make sense to record the "definitive project view" in there, otherwise maybe on the wiki
<cjwatson> I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a description edit war; I agree it's a theoretical possibility but I wonder if we need to be concerned about it
<sabdfl> one advantage of flagging it on a comment (especially if the flag can be added later by someone else) is that different projects can hold different definitive views
<sabdfl> i.e. this is why nautilus wants spatial, this is why XXX wants something different
<cjwatson> the Debian BTS added a feature a while back where you could note a particular comment index as a summary of the bug
<sabdfl> but that would be unusual
<cjwatson> to some extent this is a workaround for not having an editable description, but it might be an interesting approach here too
<sabdfl> a related issue on transparency might be clearer documentation of the project structure; for example, desktop and server team leadership
<sabdfl> so even if there is no expressed view, it's clearer where one might find it
<popey> hmm
<popey> There is a (perceived) difference between the hundreds of decisions mpt / mdke / cjwatson make a day and the ones sabdfl makes. I suspect people feel that anyone other than sabdfl can be argued with. Whereas sabdfl cannot.
<cjwatson> there was something about this on the platform wishlist for LP ages ago
<popey> I've certainly seen people voice this in a roundabout way in the past
<cjwatson> I think an idea was to have certain project/team emblems show up alongside commenters
<Daviey> (There is a greasemoneky plugin that does this.)
<sabdfl> cjwatson: that, and perhaps to promote those comments to being visible right after the description
<popey> I don't know whether it's an approachability thing or whether people feel that it's because you're the project owner/sponsor.
<cjwatson> I believe bug 81692 was the bug of record on this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 81692 in Launchpad itself "Display team emblem on bugs from project contributors" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/81692
<sabdfl> popey: understandable. i think it's reasonable to expect any agenda/view/constraint to be documented though, and am happy to do that.
<popey> Documenting a position is one thing, being (perceived to be) open to discussion is another of course.
<sabdfl> i think there are two separate issues in that bug report from mdz
<sabdfl> one is just showing affiliation for every commenter, where that can be determined and is relevant
<sabdfl> so telling the difference between a commenter who has ANY official role in Ubuntu and one who does not
<cjwatson> I'm reminded of the GNOME Bugzilla thing where it says (developer) or (translator) or whatever it is next to people's names; simple but effective
<sabdfl> the other, is identifying a specific comment as a "definitive project statement" by an authoritative person
<cjwatson> but yeah, doesn't really address what popey is saying
<cjwatson> how much of this really needs a technical solution?  should we just be more careful about how we phrase things when we might come off as authoritative?
<sabdfl> i can live with the controversy ;-)
<Daviey> (For info, the greasemoneky script adds: http://bootie.daviey.com/~dave/lpfoo.png Karama and teams)
<dholbach> maybe just 1) update description, 2) tag the bug for documenting the decision and 3) mark as "opinion"? :)
<sabdfl> for someone who wants to debate, a decision is a pain. for everyone else, it's a relief.
<sabdfl> karama! need more of that. sounds like fun :-)
<Daviey> i blame oneiric :)
<dholbach> the people who can mark an Ubuntu bug as "opinion" should know the decision makers in the project
<sabdfl> and generally they do
<sabdfl> ok. highvoltage wanted some record of specific decisions or guidance from me, primarily in cases where that's being quoted by third parties
<sabdfl> i'm happy to run with a space on the wiki where folk can ask for such things to be documented officially
<sabdfl> i am not going to start cc'ing everything i think to that space
<sabdfl> but am happy to document positions there, and changes to them, on request
<sabdfl> "can i have that in writing, please" ;-)
<sabdfl> in addition, i think we can ask the LP folk about the ability to signal that a particular comment, by any particular person, is "the view of the Ubuntu project" or other project in LP
<dholbach> shall we start a broader discussion about "definitive project view" somewhere? or is this just about "Mark decisions"?
<sabdfl> i don't think we should get into having LP try to *guess* which statements are just statements and which are "the view"
<sabdfl> so, I could mark a comment by cjwatson as "the view for Ubuntu", but so could cjwatson do the same on a comment from slangasek, or me, or mpt
<dholbach> until then "AND THE FINAL DECISION IS: ..." in a bug description should make it quite easy to guess right ;-)
<persia> How would ACLs work marking comments: any Ubuntu Member could so mark a comment?
<dholbach> I think right now most of the bug decisions can be made by ubuntu-bug-control
<dholbach> (which ubuntu-dev is a member of)
<dholbach> I guess that'd make sense here as well
<persia> Preserving ~ubuntu-bug-control as an arbiter of bug status/comment status seems the least-change ACL to me.
<dholbach> in any case, the general idea makes sense to me and it'd be good to bring it up with Launchpad folks :)
<dholbach> I'm not sure if there's more to be discussed on this topic for now? Maybe highvolt1ge can follow up on the CC mailing list later on and give us feedback about this discussion?
<persia> "Project bug contracts should be able to mark particular comments as authoritative statements on behalf of the project"?
<dholbach> persia, that sounds good to me
 * persia files a bug
<dholbach> thanks persia
<dholbach> is there any other action items? sabdfl: have you thought about a place on the wiki already?
<popey> Is the wiki he right place for this?
<dholbach> sabdfl, had mentioned a wiki page before
<persia> popey, Where else would you suggest?  Wiki has attribution and editability.
<popey> Who is the target audience of this content?
<popey> Community members, developers, 'outsiders' ?
<dholbach> ls
<dholbach> oops
<dholbach> it'd really be good to get Jonathan's feedback, so we can see if the proposal that we discussed up until now helps with his concern
<persia> Bug #800149
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 800149 in Launchpad itself "Project bug contacts should be able to mark particular comments as authoritative statements on behalf of the project" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/800149
<dholbach> thanks persia
<popey> sounds like askubuntu +1 / -1 and *'ing a good answer to me
<persia> Kinda, yeah, except not so crowdsourced: just binary.
<popey> Who guards the guards? ;)
<popey> I mean we already have bugs where someone in the project has rejected out of hand a bug report, and that would probably get a *
<popey> but the rejection was (in the instances I'm thinking of) wrong
<popey> but once it's been "tagged" as "The word of $DEITY" that's it, game over?
<persia> I don't think it's ever "game over".
<popey> the bit is then flipped to "opinion" and nothing gets done to 'fix' the issue, and we end up looking daft
<popey> from a bug reporters perspective it is seen to be game over when the maintainer says "no"
<persia> I think this gives us the ability to say "Yeah, we thought about it, and decided this".
<persia> We have no maintainers in Ubuntu.
<popey> that is not true
<popey> unless I used the wrong word
<popey> "people who maintain the thing the bug was filed against"
<popey> ^ my use of maintainer
<persia> We don't have those.
<cjwatson> persia: that's a mantra, but its truth varies from package to package
<cjwatson> we officially don't in order to discourage maintainer-lock problems
<persia> The way the developer structures work specifically implies that no single person is ever completely responsible for a package.
<popey> Yes, and meanwhilst back on planet earth.
<cjwatson> but there are clearly plenty of cases where there's only one or two people working on something in practice, and from a bug reporter's point of view it's a distinction without a difference
<persia> In practice, we may all agree to delegate the decision for something to someone who knows the most about it, but that's kinda different.
<popey> Knowing most about it doesn't mean they're qualified to tag a bug as 'notabug'
<persia> Indeed.  I don't think we ought ever delegate decisions that way, but in practice, we have.
<dholbach> ok, where do we go from here?
<popey> From a user/bug-reporter perspective if the person who seems to be curating the service/package the bug is filed against rejects the bug, and this is tagged as the right answer I am concerned that this brings the shutters down on further discussion.
<cjwatson> while I do somewhat agree with you, my opposing perspective is often that voting seems to continue until morale improves, if you see what I mean
<popey> I'm not advocating voting
<cjwatson> that wasn't quite what I meant
<popey> ok.
<popey> I dont see what you mean then âº
<cjwatson> I meant that there are some things when discussion just goes on and on and on endlessly and it's a drain on everyone's time
<cjwatson> even (or especially) after a developer has responded
<popey> Oh completely.
<cjwatson> one person's rejection out of hand is another person's belief that they've researched the problem more carefully and that the first instinct is seductively wrong
<persia> Mind you, there are a number of cases where the developer responds "I don't have time, won't fix" without much explanation, but that's more a matter of "someone else has to do this: you won't convince me" than "this should not be done"
<cjwatson> and that's what mediation is for
<popey> I'm less concerned about those types of bugs being let to carry on and on, and more concerned about the bugs which start "this is a bug", "no it isn't tag:notabug", end of bug.
<dholbach> but that's not necessarily different from what we have now, no?
<popey> indeed
<dholbach> I'm wondering if we can narrow done the discussion somewhat :)
<dholbach> documenting "special" decisions (or however you might want to call it), especially in the case sabdfl, seems to be what highvolt1ge asked for
<persia> I think the wiki page is the right solution for that.
<dholbach> everything else seems to involve a lot more people in order to make it a good discussion (ie. closing discussion on bugs, etc.)
<persia> The "Give me that in writing" response.
<dholbach> ok, I'll take an action to reach out to highvolt1ge to find out if that's a suitable solution to his problem
<dholbach> does anybody else want to take on any action item regarding this broader discussion?
<dholbach> ok, I take this as a "no" :)
<dholbach> it's not a proper agenda item, I just wanted us to have a look at https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00008.html again - and it seems like the RMB Americas it the only board/council that is currently looking for nominees
<dholbach> I know that the Forums Council has announced the new Membership process - did they also start looking for new nominees for the FC?
<popey> is the Asia Pac board now up to full size?
<dholbach> the CC and TB still have some time until they need to get restaffed
<dholbach> popey, last thing I heard was that the LoCo Council was in touch with a couple of potential candidates
<dholbach> I'll follow up on that thread again
<popey> ok
<dholbach> done
<dholbach> does anybody know about the Forums and Kubuntu Council?
<dholbach> are they fully restaffed again?
<popey> i dont
<dholbach> I think the Kubuntu Council sorted it out during UDS
<dholbach> yes, Kubuntu is all good
<dholbach> I'll ping the Forums Council as well
<dholbach> anybody wants to write the team report this time?
<dholbach> any other business?
 * popey checks when we expire from the cc
<dholbach> popey, https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00008.html
<popey> ah, oct
<dholbach> any takes for the team report?
<dholbach> ok, mails sent - let's adjourn - thanks everybody
<bjf> ##
<bjf> ## Ubuntu Kernel Team Meeting - Today @ 17:00 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<bjf> ##      agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> ##
<zul> heylo
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<smoser> o/
<jamespage> o/ all
<jamespage> anyone else around?
<jamespage> o/ hallyn
<sconklin> o/
<jamespage> right then - lets get started
<jamespage> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is jamespage.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> sommer and j1mc to look at doc presentation
<jamespage> sommer or j1mc around?
<jamespage> hmm guess not
<Daviey> jamespage: sorry, i am here.
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Oneiric Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Development
<Daviey> Hello!
<jamespage> just in time - all yours
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<adam_g> o/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<Daviey> (/me actions himself to get the trend line reset)
<Daviey> Firsty, we are doing much better with our merging and syncing; and our new bug count is looking better.  However, whilst we are making progress burning work items; we possibly need to switch more focus to the feature development.
<Daviey> Incidently, we have a metric tonne of MIR's we need to undertake.  We really need to distribute these agmonst the team.  We should strive to raise the MIR's for at least two each before next week.
<Daviey> Takeway.. if there isn't a WI for the engineering effort currently being done; ask yourself if you should be doing it. :)
<Daviey> ...
<jamespage> Daviey: are most of the MIR's around the dependencies for openstack?
<Daviey> jamespage: mostly yes
<Daviey> but TBH, there shouldn't be too much of a requirement to have a deepo knowledge of the package
<jamespage> rightoh
<Daviey> so pick 2.. and just get 'em done.
<Daviey> Remember to mark INPROGRESS
<Daviey> :)
<zul> oooh...i can stop then :)
<Daviey> (sorry for brevity, on the phone at the moment)
<Daviey> zul: no, you need to do 4.
<zul> oooh...i can stop then :)
<jamespage> any other questions for Daviey or about oneiric development?
<SpamapS> Daviey: briefly, I think the new bug count is actualy getting worse, not better.
<Daviey> SpamapS: it's better than Friday.
<Daviey> :)
<Daviey> SpamapS: But yes, it's something to watch.. However, at the moment, we really do need to put more focus into feature work.
<SpamapS> Daviey: 42 and 62 aren't really that much different. We were at 0 for 2 entire cycles.
<zul> SpamapS: i was cracking at them this morning
<hallyn> so the q is, is everyond doing their half-day bug triage, and is that not being enough?
<SpamapS> I know that we have had a few more packages added, but we haven't had resources added.
<Daviey> SpamapS: Hmm.. I have a graph.. but yes, but count is raising. And there is a secret weapon to help address this.
<Daviey> hallyn: I think we've all fallen behind on the half day triage.
<hallyn> Daviey: well that's good news bc it means maybe if we are more disciplined abouthat we can address this without being more drastic :)
<smoser> [late question: where is the MIR list]
<zul> hallyn: im not i know i been slacking
<Daviey> smoser: see the WI's
<smoser> ah
<Daviey> smoser: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html (search for "MIR ")
<jamespage> OK sounds like we all need to ensure that we are doing the full half day of bug triage that we sign up for each week
<jamespage> it would be good to get the new bug count down
<hallyn> Mind you I think the wiki page suggests it shoud only take a few minutes  :)
 * smoser is looking forward to a bug triage engineer
<smoser> there are major trends in that bug count
<hallyn> smoser: are you cloning one? (an engineer that is)
<smoser> that surely can be identified and easily reduced / removed with some dedicated engineering
<smoser> hallyn, i thought i had put you in charge of that.
<jamespage> anything else on Oneiric development?
<Daviey> jamespage: no, please move on.
<SpamapS> I also think that we may be writing off some common recurring themes as "a system problem" when the pattern itself suggests we should eliminate the automated bug report.
<hallyn> smoser: mine will take, oh, 18 years to be ready.
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
<hallyn> but she's working on it
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jamespage> anyone attending anything interesting?
<hallyn> SpamapS: good point, maybe we should talk about that sometime
<zul> linuxcon in august
<SpamapS> yeah thats a topic for next week.
<hallyn> ok
<smoser> http://ubuntu-server-new-bugs.notlong.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntu-server-new-bugs.notlong.com/
<SpamapS> Probably worth talking about now that its about a month away.. I'll be a OSCON in Portland
<smoser> (juust for the record)
<jamespage> noted
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<jamespage> hggdh: around?
<hggdh> yes
<jamespage> all yours
<hggdh> no news from me, except a SRU verification fot TGT and NBD
<hggdh> ..
<Daviey> hggdh: Thanks for that.
<Daviey> hggdh: We should probably sync up soon to look at what needs testing for A2.
<Daviey> A2 should have installer differences.
<hggdh> Daviey: indeed. We will need to revisit all tests
<Daviey> hggdh: oh joy. :)
<jamespage> hggdh: and update the automated testing as required as well
<Daviey> hggdh: How is jenkins deployment going for CI testing?
<hggdh> we are moving all Jenkins to the new lab facility
<hggdh> and will be (hopefully) expanding the tests
<jamespage> Daviey: when are the installer changes due to land?
<Daviey> jamespage: by end of next week
<jamespage> right so we need to line up any automated test changes to that timescale otherwise it will all break....
<jamespage> ok anything else for hggdh?
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Hi
 * SpamapS makes a note not to write his boot testing until after the installer changes
<smb> So a bit more playing with Oneiric dom0. There is one thing I think we need to decide.
<smb> Last time I looked, the xen tools would use the -server kernel installed as the dom0 kernel. Should that be changed to -virtual? With the benefit that -virtual should probably have blkback and netback compiled in. Which is currently a pita when trying to launch domUs
<SpamapS> err
<SpamapS> dom0 is a real server, so -virtual wouldn't have the needed components
<zul> which xen-tools?
 * SpamapS reiterates his long time opinion that this is why kvm > xen :-P
<smoser> dom0 is not a real server
<smb> Hm, true. (somehow was looking at hardy which take a xen kernel for both, but probably not a good example then)
<zul> SpamapS: centos fan boy ;)
<smoser> but i think -virtual is probably not sufficient
<zul> right it isnt
<smoser> do you happen to know  why?
<zul> is that directed at me?
<SpamapS> smoser: huh?
<smoser> dom0 is not a "real server".
<smoser> xen runs on the "real server"
<SpamapS> Dom0, or domain zero to expand the abbreviation, is the first domain started by the Xen hypervisor on boot. It has special privileges, like being able to cause new domains to start, and being able to access the hardware directly. Unless DriverDomains are being used, it is responsible for running all of the device drivers for the hardware.
<smoser> dom0 runs under xen
<SpamapS> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Dom0
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Dom0
<SpamapS> smoser: effectively, its a real server
<smoser> it is meerley a priviledged domU
<SpamapS> it needs all the drivers and hardware bits to be useful in the general sense.
<SpamapS> Tho I agree it is not *actually* the real kernel.
<Daviey> Is this OT?
<smoser> yes.
<smoser> i was mostly wrong.
<smb> Ok accepted- So the question would rather be to make sure blkback and netback are really loaded when xen loads that kernel. (maybe in init?)
<smoser> i was kind of thinking that dom0 might nit need drivers in some cases.
<smoser> but was wrong
<smb> Not sure we want that built-in into the kernel.
<zul> smb: can you open up a bug against xen in launchpad about it then i can add it init
<smb> zul, ok can do that
<zul> thanks
<smb> So the other thing I wasted most of my last week is bug 705562
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705562 in linux (Ubuntu Hardy) "ami-6836dc01 8.04 32 bit AMI kernel lock bug" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705562
<smb> And finally I think I got a solution
<smb> ... and its a bit scary
<smb> It made me wonder whether 32bit was ever really used. Anyway, thats all.
<jamespage> anyone have any questions for smb?
<Daviey> smb: On another note, did you have thoughts on what we discussed yesterday; regarding the reserved memory theft?
<Daviey> How we can add optimisations for low memory systems?
<smb> Daviey, well not more than I was saying. Givem more. That actually is what older versions really did
<smb> There is a price to pay to have pae and a virtual memory management
<Daviey> smb: Okay, i'm interested if we can make cgroups disable memory hogging more discovrable for small systems
<smb> Daviey, and we need to be careful about what this does. The hint is given in dmesg
<smoser> smb, 32 bits are used.
<smoser> definitely
<Daviey> smb: okay, thanks.
<smoser> at least on amazon, price makes them a real usable option
<smb> smoser, Right, well the comment was about hardy version
<Daviey> smb: that is all from me, thanks!
<SpamapS> m1.small is 32-bits, yes?
<smb> And about the fact that what happens breaks things quite badly and wondering how it worked at all (for longer period of time)
<smb> SpamapS, right it is
<SpamapS> Quite a popular instance size :-P
<jamespage> OK; moving on
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<Daviey> NCommander: are you here?
<jamespage> NCommander: around?
<jamespage> hmm I would guess not
<jamespage> anyone else able to give and update on ARM server?
 * SpamapS hopes
<jamespage> OK guess not
<jamespage> moving on
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<jamespage> So any questions or updates from anyone in the ubuntu-server community?
<jamespage> Nope
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<jamespage> anyone have anything else they want to discuss/raise/inform us all about?
<SpamapS> Hey everybody write more ensemble formulas! :)
<RoAkSoAx> JAMES PAGE!
<SpamapS> ETHERPAD
<zul> jaaaaaaaaaaameeeeeeeeessssssssss page!
<Daviey> thanks jamespage
<robbiew> JAMES PAGE!!!1
<adam_g> openstack and its related components can use more testing in oneiric! since ive been using it ive hit two major bugs that could have been discovered by simply trying to run it
<zul> that glance bug is fixed btw
<Daviey> adam_g: good point
<adam_g> zul, i saw. thanks!
<smoser> JAMES PAGE is an ubuntu developer. Woot!
<robbiew> +10 adam_g
<robbiew> I guess his developer contributions and activity were in line with precedence
<robbiew> lol
<RoAkSoAx> lol
<jamespage> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<robbiew> (only funny if you were in yesterday's ubuntu membership meeting)
<jamespage> Tuesday, June 28th 2011 16:00 UTC
<jamespage> see you then
<jamespage> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:45.
<Daviey> o/
<apw_> o/
<smb> \o
<kamal> o/
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:59. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ppisati> o/
<bjf> ##
<bjf> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<bjf> ##
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Kernel development: nothing new to report.
<ppisati> Oneiric/ti-omap4: during the last TI call we got to know that _perhaps_ we will get a 3.0 kernel for the O cycle. Still not 100% sure and no ETA yet. Linaro already has a .39 kernel but it doesn't boot on my panda (while it seems it works ok with a linaro hwpack if device tree is disabled).
<ppisati> Gcc 4.6 and omap usb: lp#791552 has been confirmed as a kernel upstream bug, thus until we get a proper fix and as long as we us gcc 4.6, we loose usb across all the omap* targets. So far all the proposed workarounds didn't help.
<ppisati> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kt-meeting.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara> ==== oneiric nominated bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 28 linux kernel bugs (up 8)
<ogasawara> ==== Ubuntu oneiric-alpha-2 bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara> ==== oneiric-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== natty-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 25 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== maverick-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== lucid-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 8 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== hardy-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Incoming Bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 23 oneiric bugs (up 4)
<ogasawara>  * 1326 natty bugs (up 14)
<ogasawara>  * 1129 maverick bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara>  * 1038 lucid bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 38 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Regressions ===
<ogasawara> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 4 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 43 maverick bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 77 lucid bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 450 natty bugs (down 3)
<ogasawara>  * 247 maverick bugs (down 1)
<ogasawara>  * 224 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<ogasawara> apw, lag, manjo, ralveti, rtg: you have work items to review your set of Ubuntu patches which I've postponed to Alpha-2 for you. Please take a moment to review when you have a chance. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KernelOneiricUbuntuDeltaReview for your specific set of patches.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Server Requirements (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-server-requirements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Server Requirements (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-server-requirements
<smb> Was able to get some domUs started  with Oneiric as dom0. Some strange problem to follow-up on when having xenconsole and console on a serial line. Also need to file a bug to get blkback and netback loaded when the system gets started as dom0. Otherwise there is a strange effect when starting the domUs
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We uploaded the 3.0-1.2 Ubuntu kernel last week.  This was rebased on the upstream v3.0-rc3 release.  Alpha-2 is also approaching, ie Thurs June 30.  That means we'll likely upload our final Alpha-2 kernel this Friday June 24th.  If there are any patches that need to land in Alpha-2, get them sent to the kernel-team mailing list asap.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin)
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Kernel SRU tracking page:
<sconklin> ||   http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Current status:
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Hardy: released
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Lucid: Verification complete but a regression is suspected
<sconklin> ||        Regression bug: http://launchpad.net/bugs/791512
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 791512 in linux (Ubuntu) "tcp connections hang in forwarding machine" [Undecided,New]
<sconklin> ||        Kernel will not be released until this is resolved
<sconklin> ||        QA testing is in progress
<sconklin> ||        Security Signoff is in progress
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Maverick:  Verification complete
<sconklin> ||            Awaiting QA testing or signoff
<sconklin> ||            Security Signoff is in progress
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Natty:  Regressions have been detected in -proposed
<sconklin> ||         We are waiting for feedback from the reporters
<sconklin> ||         and can't proceed until the regressions are
<sconklin> ||         resolved.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||         Tracking bug: http://launchpad.net/bugs/792013
<sconklin> ||         Regression bugs:
<sconklin> ||              https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/794096
<sconklin> ||              https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/793796
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ..
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 792013 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Regression] linux: 2.6.38-10.44 -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 794096 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "SMTP and posting to a web-form time out (probably due to netfilter changes)" [Undecided,In progress]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 793796 in linux (Ubuntu) "2.6.38-10 panic after ejecting drive" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Current Kernel versions are always available here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/versions.html
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || lucid    linux-meta-lts-backport-natty     ||                      || 2.6.38.10.20         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-ec2                         || 2.6.32-316.31        || 2.6.32-317.34        ||    3 ||        3 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-lts-backport-natty          ||                      || 2.6.38-10.44~lucid1  ||    1 ||        1 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               || 2.6.32.216.18        || 2.6.32.217.19        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.32.32.24         || 2.6.32.33.25         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    || 2.6.32-216.33        || 2.6.32-217.34        ||    8 ||        8 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-lts-backport-maverick  || 2.6.35.25.36         || 2.6.35.30.38         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-lts-backport-maverick       || 2.6.35-25.44~lucid1  || 2.6.35-30.54~lucid1  ||   21 ||       21 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.32.32.38         || 2.6.32.33.39         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.34.7               || 1.34.10              ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.32-32.62         || 2.6.32-33.68         ||    3 ||        3 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-fsl-imx51                   || 2.6.31-608.25        || 2.6.31-609.26        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-fsl-imx51              || 2.6.31.608.9         || 2.6.31.609.10        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.32    || 2.6.32-32.32         || 2.6.32-33.33         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-ec2                    || 2.6.32.316.17        || 2.6.32.317.18        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || maverick linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.35.28.21         || 2.6.35.30.23         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-mvl-dove                    || 2.6.32-416.33        || 2.6.32-417.34        ||    6 ||        6 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta-mvl-dove               || 2.6.32.416.6         || 2.6.32.417.7         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.38.6               || 1.38.8               ||    1 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.35-28.50         || 2.6.35-30.54         ||   14 ||       14 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.35    || 2.6.35-28.20         || 2.6.35-30.22         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.35.28.36         || 2.6.35.30.38         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || natty    linux-meta-ti-omap4               ||                      || 2.6.38.1209.7        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.38    ||                      || 2.6.38-10.6          ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-firmware                    ||                      || 1.52.1               ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             ||                      || 2.6.38-10.44         ||   15 ||       15 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-ti-omap4                    ||                      || 2.6.38-1209.13       ||   10 ||       10 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux-meta                        ||                      || 2.6.38.10.25         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<ogasawara> o/
<bjf> ogasawara, go
<ogasawara> 2 things...
<ogasawara> 1) bjf, the links you post at the start of the meeting still reference Natty, should be Oneiric
<ogasawara> 2) The bug stats we post each meeting, are those useful to anyone other than myself?  Would it suffice to just post the link to the stats?
<ogasawara> ..
<sconklin> o/
<tgardner> ogasawara, RE: 2, the data is small enough that publishing it is fine.
<bjf> ogasawara, thanks, fixed
<sconklin> I have the same question about kernel versions in the meeting - is posting th elink just as useful?
<bjf> sconklin, go
<tgardner> sconklin, the elink is more appropriate in that case
<sconklin> and the verified counts can be gotten from the sru status page
<sconklin> and we can probably get the meeting down to 2 minutes ;)
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> anything else?
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:10.
<smb> thanks bjf
<kamal> thanks bjf
<czajkowski> 4 mins to Ubuntu LoCo Council meeting
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
 * MooDoo is lurking learning whats going on
<czajkowski> paultag: itnet7 leogg huats ping
<paultag> hey guys
<czajkowski> lets get this rolling
<itnet7> o/
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:01. The chair is czajkowski.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<czajkowski> [LNK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> tonights agenda, we'll work our way from the top with the agenda items, followed by teams, listed as they are on the wiki
<czajkowski> so firstly JanC are you about
<czajkowski> [topic] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2011-February/005233.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2011-February/005233.html
<czajkowski> well here is the update, Canonical have invested a lot of money in the once off gifts for locoteams who are approved
<czajkowski> and out over the 70 teams less than half have applied for them
<czajkowski> with that in mind there doesnt seem to be an interest in stuf from the store to be put there
<JanC> hm...
<czajkowski> what they have said is the art work will be available and the dimensions of the banners will be made available as it is possible cheaper to purchase in other counteries
<czajkowski> sorry
<czajkowski> hope that helps
<czajkowski> moving on
<JanC> well, we know we don't have to wait to see what Canonical has to offer then  ;)
<czajkowski> cjohnston: ping
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] Uniformity of Team Names
<MootBot> New Topic:  Uniformity of Team Names
<JanC> (I think not all approved teams are still active though, etc.)
<czajkowski> this was brought up at UDS and has been on the back burner for the LC until now.
<czajkowski> [link] http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/
<czajkowski> at present the DISPLAY name here is rather messy looking and we are proposing to standardise this
<czajkowski> there is a mail in draft by itnet7 and us that will go out to loco contacts this week
<czajkowski> and we hope to refine it with the help of loco contacts
<czajkowski> so in the coming months we'd hope to see all the names displayed easier to read and also make it easier to find a team as it'll be named the same across the board
<czajkowski> again more information will be on this via the loco contacts mailing list and our new Loco council BLOG ! :D
<czajkowski> so moving onto approvals as we have a few to get through tonight ! :)
<itnet7> +1
<paultag> :)
<itnet7> for the LC Blog!!
<czajkowski> [topic] Venezuela Loco Team re approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  Venezuela Loco Team re approval
<czajkowski> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenezuelaTeam/ReApproval2011
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenezuelaTeam/ReApproval2011
<paultag> Stand up, ya'll! Who's here to cheer for Venezuela? :)
<czajkowski> C3s4r: ping
<czajkowski> you're up
<keffie_jayx> o/
<davidhdz> o/
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: ALOHA!!!!
<C3s4r> czajkowski, Hi all
<paultag> howdy
<czajkowski> welcome folks
<keffie_jayx> czajkowski: :)
<nejode> o/
<huats> hey keffie_jayx
<czajkowski> Nice wiki page folks
<leogg> hola
<czajkowski> so easy to read thank you
<C3s4r> czajkowski, thanks ;)
<czajkowski> and pictures make me happy :D
<czajkowski> C3s4r: so care to tell us about your team, how you get things done please ?
<huats> pics makes all of us happy !
<C3s4r> czajkowski, well, actually things are going great, the team has focused on the work of the dissemination of ubuntu in the country.
<C3s4r> upps
<C3s4r> czajkowski, sorry for my bad English.
<czajkowski> C3s4r: don't worry :) really
<czajkowski> we have leogg :)
<czajkowski> if you need a help just ask him
<leogg> :D
<keffie_jayx> I could also help ;)
<C3s4r> czajkowski, Ubuntu-ve at the beginning of its activities had little activity, but shortly after, because of the knowledge and responsibility that comes with being a team approved by the Ubuntu community, which is why for 3 years now the community has grown to 200% taking super important roles in the country and also international,
<czajkowski> C3s4r: so who does your team reports well done! very good
<leogg> C3s4r, your English is just fine!
<czajkowski> yes you can see your events have grown over the years
<czajkowski> well done
<C3s4r> czajkowski, example was when a member of Ubuntu-ve had the opportunity to participate in the Summit Developert Ubuntu, this fills us with pride that we all have the same opportunity to disseminate and help the Ubuntu project.
<czajkowski> C3s4r: what as a team do you find the hardest thing for you ?
<czajkowski> C3s4r: yes I got to meet keffie_jayx he's great!
<C3s4r> czajkowski, Our participation in local events have been very good, as to have members in every state in our country, covering every corner to publicize our work without discrimination of gender in our LoCo Team has existed since people with disabilities as entrepreneurs girls that live in the Free Software community in Venezuela.
<keffie_jayx> czajkowski: participating in global events is difficult when a) people do not develop, nor participate in development b) language is a barrier
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: ok thanks
<czajkowski> well it's a great application and I've no other questions to ask
<leogg> keffie_jayx, but you have some experience with development, eg. turpial?
<itnet7> The re-approval application really was nice work, and highlighted a lot of what you do, we all appreciate it
<keffie_jayx> leogg: picking up the ropes, as a team we could be more involved in global jams et all
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: so that's an area you'd like to improve on
<czajkowski> good that you cna highlight that
<keffie_jayx> leogg: that case of turpial was special, we got to work with the debian folks in venezuela
<leogg> keffie_jayx, indeed, the language barrier is not easy to overcome though
<leogg> keffie_jayx, that's great!
<keffie_jayx> czajkowski: we are already participating in Ubuntu Open Week in spanish and we are cosidering putting together Ubuntu Developer Week in Spanish
<czajkowski> well done
 * keffie_jayx keeps fingers crossed
<czajkowski> ok
<C3s4r> leogg, czajkowski keffie_jayx I have a space to talk and encourage boys to participate in events like the Global Jam
<czajkowski> itnet7: paultag huats leogg ready to vote folks
<paultag> I'm settled
<leogg> C3s4r, nice!
<leogg> yes, I'm ready
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the re approval of the Venezuela LoCo . Please only council members vote.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the re approval of the Venezuela LoCo . Please only council members vote..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<leogg> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from leogg. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<czajkowski> well done and keep up the good work
<huats>  /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<itnet7> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from itnet7. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 4 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<leogg> really nice work folks! excelente trabajo!
<keffie_jayx> me hugs C3s4r czajkowski nejode davidhdz Ntovar itnet7 huats paultag
<huats> A great +1 for me, please continue to work like this !
<paultag> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<paultag> yes, well done. Keep it up!
<davidhdz> thanks leogg, thanks guys :)
<keffie_jayx> w00t, yay :)
<czajkowski> [agreed] Venezuela re approved
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Venezuela re approved
<itnet7> great job!
<leogg> davidhdz, thank you!
<paultag> well done, folks! 'grats!
<C3s4r> thanks all, gracias a todos.  :D
<keffie_jayx> viva Venezuela mi patria querida...
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] Denmark
<MootBot> New Topic:  Denmark
<czajkowski> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanishTeam/RepprovalApplication2011
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanishTeam/RepprovalApplication2011
<Ntovar> Gerardo
<czajkowski> laoshi: ping
<laoshi> o/
<czajkowski> welcome
<laoshi> thx
<czajkowski> thanks for coming
<sbc> o/
<AJenbo> 0/
<kjoller> o/
<pixiarvai> o/
<paultag> hey, guys!
<itnet7> Wow, hey there everyonne!
<czajkowski> laoshi: ok, so care to tell us about your team please
<laoshi> at the moment things are moving. the remaking of homepage and forum has been quite a success
<laoshi> and meetings in person at Aarhus and Copenhagen have become regular
<czajkowski> laoshi: how do you share out getting things done??
<laoshi> mainly through mailing-list and irc
<czajkowski> you mention team irc meetings
<czajkowski> I cant see any link to logs of the meetings
<czajkowski> do you mail these out to the team afterwards?
<laoshi> yes - but you are right that the logs ought to be on wiki
<czajkowski> well it says once a month or needs be
<czajkowski> what do you mean by that ?
<laoshi> meaning that it can happen more often
<AJenbo> http://ubuntudanmark.dk/blog/artikler/category/meetings/irc-meeting/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntudanmark.dk/blog/artikler/category/meetings/irc-meeting/
<czajkowski> it's not linked anywhere on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanishTeam/
<czajkowski> annn ok
<czajkowski> so you store them on the website
<czajkowski> ok so you had 2 in 2011 but nothing since 2008 ???
<AJenbo> We still haven't moved all from the old wiki to the web stie
<czajkowski> AJenbo: can you show me on the wiki please?
<sbc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanishTeam/M%C3%B8der
<AJenbo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanishTeam/M%C3%B8der
<sbc> :)
<AJenbo> beat me to it :)
<leogg> laoshi, I see you have a mentoring project? care to tell us something about that?
<laoshi> yes. it's quite new. we launched it on the community yesterday. and some 6 or 7 persons have volunteered as mentors
<laoshi> and we have 1 request for being mentored
<czajkowski> laoshi: what does being an approved team mean to the team ?
<laoshi> we have tried to have som categories like translation, support, arrangements etc
<leogg> laoshi, cool
<laoshi> it means that we will be able to carry on furthering the use of ubuntu with some autohority
<czajkowski> laoshi: ok, on http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-dk  with the new policy coming  into place, your team will have to change the display name to Ubuntu denmark loco team just fyi
<huats> laoshi, being mentored to do what ? be part of the community? development ?
<czajkowski> laoshi: have you applied for your gift from canonical, ie banner/table cloth ?
<laoshi> mainly the community
<laoshi> czajkowski, I think I'll have to let sbc answer - the offer came as I was getting into position as loco contact
<czajkowski> laoshi: ok thanks
<czajkowski> sbc: ?
<sbc> sbc: Don
<pixiarvai> huats,  in the case im will be mentor, and will help him in the support, so he can try more, and still have a "backup"
<sbc> sbc: Don't think we have. Not that i'm aware anyway.
<czajkowski> sbc: ok, any reason why, as canonical have put this together for approved teams?
<sbc> Our previous loco contact left for a year in australia, and there might have been a period of no one knowing if it was their job or not. I personally haven't heard of this offer :)
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> sbc: can you talk to huats after this meeting please
<laoshi> sorry
<czajkowski> ok, one final question before we vote
<sbc> czajkowski: will do.
<czajkowski> do you team reports??
<sbc> It has properly been quite a while. It is one of those jobs that noone really want's to do, to be honest.
<czajkowski> sbc: ok while it's not one people want to do
<laoshi> not to my awareness - but the reapproval application gave me insights into what is happening, and can be modelled after tgat
<laoshi> that
<czajkowski> it is important as it shares with the greated community how teams are doing
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote ont he re approval of the Denmark LoCo. Council members only
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote ont he re approval of the Denmark LoCo. Council members only.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<laoshi> and that will be one of my priorities - started
<czajkowski> +1
<laoshi> 1 month ago
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<czajkowski> please do team reports from now on!
<laoshi> will do
<pixiarvai> sure
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 2 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<itnet7> +1 good work
<MootBot> +1 received from itnet7. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<paultag> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<leogg> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from leogg. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<czajkowski> [agreed] re approved Denmark LoCo
<MootBot> AGREED received:  re approved Denmark LoCo
<leogg> and +1 on team reports
<czajkowski> laoshi: but team reports from now on please!
<laoshi> yes!'
<itnet7> definitely, we love to hear about what the teams are doing!
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] Philippines LoCo
<MootBot> New Topic:  Philippines LoCo
<huats> and please ping me tomorrow for the banners !
<czajkowski> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PhilippineTeam/ApprovalApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PhilippineTeam/ApprovalApplication
<czajkowski> zakame: ping
<zakame> czajkowski: yo
<zakame> hi all
<czajkowski> zakame: just you here ?
<zakame> yeah
<czajkowski> ok want to tell us about your team please ?
<czajkowski> zakame: your application is a bit bare.
<paultag> yeah, esp. with the team history
<zakame> yeah, as of late we're organizing our release party at both Manila and Zamboanga
<paultag> zakame: you've not had a natty event, if I've read this right?
<czajkowski> paultag: june 24th planned
<zakame> yeah, we're going to have one this friday
<paultag> ah, I see it now
<paultag> humm.
<paultag> zakame: do you have any photos from teh other events?
<zakame> not that I'm aware of.  the current ubuntu-ph.org site lost some data during a transition, many photos
<czajkowski> zakame: your application just isn't showing us activity, how things are done, team reports, what ye do
<zakame> czajkowski: yeah, we haven't had much activities as of late other than release parties
<czajkowski> zakame: so 2 events a year?
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the re approval Philippines Loco. Council members only
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the re approval Philippines Loco. Council members only.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<paultag> +0 please retry next meeting, after the party
<MootBot> Abstention received from paultag. 0 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<zakame> yeah, plus some occassional smaller/local events, like one in bicol
<czajkowski> I'd like to see how the natty party goes, and maybe we can contine this over on the bug
<leogg> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from leogg. 0 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
<paultag> this next event will really make-or-break it
<itnet7> +0 as well
<MootBot> Abstention received from itnet7. 0 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 0
<czajkowski> zakame: your application just isn't showing this, so we'd like to give you a 2nd chance to get it updated with more information
<zakame> ok
<MootBot> Private abstention received. 0 for, 0 against. 5 abstained. Count is now 0
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 5 abstained. Total: 0
<czajkowski> [agreed] Philippines to re apply using the bug with an updated wiki page with more content
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Philippines to re apply using the bug with an updated wiki page with more content
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] Ireland
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ireland
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam/IrishTeamReApprovalApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam/IrishTeamReApprovalApplication
<czajkowski> for this application I'll not be voting
<czajkowski> and the others will be doing the questions I'm here to cheer ireland on
<czajkowski> paultag: huats leogg itnet7 fire away
 * ebel is also here to cheer ireland on
<czajkowski> ebel: step up
<czajkowski> o/
<airurando> go ebel
<airurando> go Ubuntu Ireland
<czajkowski> there are a few of us here
<paultag> just a moment, just reading through :)
<ebel> ahoy! I'm the PoC for ubuntu-ie and will be fronting the questions.
<paultag> howdy ebel
<theirishpenguin> come on ireland! ubuntu-ie!
<ebel> though there are several ubuntu-ie'ers here now
 * tdr112 is supporting ireland too
<paultag> ebel: so give us a bit of a feel for your team, please :)
<jpich> go ireland go :)
<moylan> yay ebel!
<paultag> ebel: what are some things you do really well, and what are some things that need work?
<mokmeister> c'mon ubuntu-ie!
<ebel> Well, we hold regular monthly irc meeetings
<ebel> and had regular monthly ubuntu hours in several placves
<ebel> we have a mailing list, facebook, twitter and identica accounts for communication
<paultag> team reports look nice
<ebel> we do regular release parties aswell
<itnet7> ebel, How does work get distributed among the team?
<czajkowski> tdr112: does an amazing job on the team reports
<ebel> We're a quite loosely organised team, we don't have really have commitees or positions of power
<tdr112> we could do more work on getting ubuntu event going on outside of dublin , we are working on this
<ebel> when we decide that something needs to be done, people volunteer (or not)
<ebel> A lot of regular 'grunt' work is has usually been handled by regular.
<tdr112> over the last two years we have moved from only doing events in dublin to more events all around ireland
<ebel> e.g. myself or airurando chair irc meetings, tdr112 does the monthly reports
<czajkowski> we've been lucky getting colleges and hackerspaces on board
<itnet7> good to hear tdr112
<ebel> we're seeing the ubuntu community outside dublin (the capital city with ~25% population) expand
<airurando> yes colleges and Hackerspaces help us greatly with events and Cd distribution efforts
<ebel> we're seeing regular events in cork, limerick and galway (the next largest cities)
<itnet7> ebel, all of you have done a great job! Re-Approval Applications like this really make it easy to see all of the great work and progress!
<czajkowski> sending cds to the colleges has worked out well
<leogg> airurando, how do you do the cd distribution thing?
<ebel> and resources are distributed accordingly. e.g. the loco banner is down in limerick(ish) for an event there
<infoturtle_> still in limerick
<ebel> CDs have been distributed all over the country this release and last release.
<paultag> Now this might be an odd question, but does anyone speak gaelic (and do translation work) ?
<ebel> infoturtle_: I keep thinking you're in clare! :P
<asoktheintern> I have done a little irish translation work
<airurando> leogg we have developed relationships with Colloege Comp Socs and City Hackerspaces.
<mokmeister> ebel: I'm in Clare
<czajkowski> paultag: we do have a few people but we strugle to get people to do some, but we get some done each cycle
<tdr112> paultag: not that many people do
<leogg> airurando, that's great!
<airurando> we send some CDs to each following each release
<paultag> tdr112: yeah, it's not very common these days, from what I've read
<ebel> paultag: not many people (in ireland) speak irish (aka gaelic)
<paultag> ebel: aye :)
<airurando> leogg we hope to develop these links further and possibly have more joint events
<ebel> however there is some irish translation happening in a hap-hazard way.
<paultag> What do you see as what you need to work on this next cycle?
<leogg> airurando, teaming up with colleges is always a good idea!
<paultag> And, additionally, how does being approved help those goals?
<airurando> leogg definitely
<ebel> well to keep going with what we have is important. we want to ensure that there are still ubuntu events happening in ireland and dublin and beyond
<itnet7> czajkowski: I think we're ready to vote
<ebel> approval means resources (e.g. cds) that can help spread the world all over the country
<ebel> aswell as giving us something to aim for
<paultag> I'm good here
<huats> good too
<czajkowski> [vote] Please vote on the re approval of the Irish Loco.  Council members only
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Please vote on the re approval of the Irish Loco.  Council members only.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<paultag> czajkowski: +vote time, please?
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 1 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<paultag> +1, well done. Keep it up
<czajkowski> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<leogg> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from leogg. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<itnet7> +1
<paultag> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from itnet7. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<itnet7> Awesome work!!
<huats> To phrase someone Ihave heard lately : you fucking rock :)
<paultag> well done :)
<paultag> +1 huats
<czajkowski> [agreed] Ireland LoCo re approved
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Ireland LoCo re approved
<ebel> :D yay!
<leogg> keep up the great work Ireland!
<infoturtle_> huzzar Ubuntu-IE!!
<airurando> great stuff
<czajkowski> whooooooooooo
<jpich> woohoo :)
<airurando> thanks so much all
<huats> terrific work really
<paultag> 'grats, guys!
<moylan> cool!
<czajkowski> [topic] Japan LoCo re approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  Japan LoCo re approval
<czajkowski> [linkk] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JapaneseTeam/ApprovalApplication
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JapaneseTeam/ApprovalApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JapaneseTeam/ApprovalApplication
<paultag> who's here? :)
<czajkowski> jkbys: ping
<jkbys> hi
<itnet7> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JapaneseTeam/TeamReports
<czajkowski> jkbys: ok care to tell us about your team, is there anyone else here
<paultag> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JapaneseTeam/TeamReports
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JapaneseTeam/TeamReports
<paultag> Wow, solid TRs
 * czajkowski loves team reports
<czajkowski> makes my life easier!
<itnet7> jkbys: did the team have an Ubuntu booth at all of those conferences that were listed?
<jkbys> yes
<itnet7> Wowzers!
<paultag> that's rather impressive
<jkbys> and we have seminar sessions
<itnet7> jkbys: does the team have a good mix of developers, advocates, and other contributors?
<paultag> jkbys: how's translation work going?
<paultag> +1 itnet7
<paultag> let's hear that first :)
<jkbys> itnet7: I think yes. The number of us is only 10, but many guys help us
<czajkowski> nice wiki page
<czajkowski> jkbys: how do you get your team motivated ?
<paultag> jkbys: how's translation work these days?
<jkbys> paultag: member of https://launchpad.net/~lp-l10n-ja work for translations
<paultag> jkbys: about how many loco members are a part of that team?
<paultag> roughly
<itnet7> Nice! There's even an online published Ubuntu-Japan Magazine, great work
<huats> Are you able to interact with other LoCos and LUGs ?
<jkbys> paultag: all of JP LoCo members are translation team members
<paultag> that's what I like to hear :)
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the  reapproval of the Japanese Team re approval. Council members only
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the  reapproval of the Japanese Team re approval. Council members only.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<paultag> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<czajkowski> nice work
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 3 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<paultag> no question, keep it up
<itnet7> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from itnet7. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<itnet7> Awesome Job
<jkbys> thank you
<czajkowski> [agreed] Japanese Team reapproved
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Japanese Team reapproved
<czajkowski> thanks folks
<czajkowski> well done
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:11.
<czajkowski> whoot
<paultag> woo
<paultag> /wc here :)
<MooDoo> wow interesting :)
<itnet7> \o/
<czajkowski> paultag: itnet7 huats which one of ye are doing the mins and updating the teams and wiki page :D
<itnet7> I will
<czajkowski> and we didn't go too over
<czajkowski> ntb
<czajkowski> :D
<itnet7> tonight
<itnet7> :-)
<czajkowski> 19 more teams to et done between now and october...
<czajkowski> no pressure
<MooDoo> "you can do it" to quote a film :)
<czajkowski> MooDoo: yer on my list!
<ajmitch> czajkowski: that excludes new teams that haven't gone for approval before? :)
<MooDoo> czajkowski: eeeeeeeek
<czajkowski> ajmitch: aye
<czajkowski> ajmitch: each cycle  ther are teams that expire, once you're approved you get 2 years then come back to a meeting like tonight
 * ajmitch doesn't see the NZ team being official anytime soon, though
<czajkowski> and show us how they are doing
<czajkowski> so team reports big help, photos, blog reports all make it easy for us to see
<AlanBell> o/
<MooDoo> hi AlanBell
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-22
<MooDoo> hello all
 * slangasek brandishes the gavel
 * jhunt does Matrix-esque back bend to avoid it
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
<MootBot> New Topic:  lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko csurbhi stgraber jhunt mvo ev vorlon bdmurray)
<slangasek> jhunt csurbhi ev barry bdmurray doko cjwatson vorlon stgraber mvo
<slangasek> jhunt: hi there :)
<jhunt> More discussions on upstart-devel and pondering re aliases (for abstract
<jhunt> jobs) and disabling of Upstart jobs. YACU ("yet another Cookbook
<jhunt> Update"). Testing shutdown.conf. Detailed code review of Surbhis Upstart
<jhunt> in initramfs branch and discussions with her. Finished merge and test of
<jhunt> Upstart 1.3 into Ubuntu package (it's in my PPA) and raised MP: it's
<jhunt> rather a nasty merge due to the branch change. Fixed bug 777097 (now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 777097 in libnih "nih_watch_handle() does not handle file watches correctly" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/777097
<jhunt> merged). Spent some time on bug 777093 but needs more drastic changes to
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 777093 in libnih "nih_watch_reader() doesn't handle inotify queue overflow" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/777093
<jhunt> NIH (ditto for bug 776532). Working on converting SysV services in main
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 776532 in libnih "nih_dir_walk_scan passes incorrect value to file filter" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/776532
<jhunt> to Upstart jobs.
<jhunt> â
<jhunt> cjwatson: could I prod you re the MP or shall I get SpamapS to take a look? I'd like to land it relatively soon to allow us to get the shutdown.conf added straight after).
<slangasek> why does the branch change make it a nasty merge?
<slangasek> (is the merge done using bzr merge-upstream)?
<jhunt> well, the current Ubuntu branch has the same changes, but in different diffs.
<cjwatson> jhunt: oh, yeah, I'll take care of it - sorry
<cjwatson> I think I saw it last thing on Friday or something
<jhunt> cjwatson: np, thx.
<slangasek> ah, so they're under debian/patches, not applied to source, ok
<jhunt> slangasek: it just appears rather large on lp, but it's essentially (mostly) a "nop"
 * slangasek nods
<jhunt> slangasek: although it does have all the new upstream goodness (bug fixes and features :)
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> no surbhi at the moment
<slangasek> ev:
<jhunt> slangasek: no, sorry. They aren't in as patches, but when you look at the diff stats for my branch, it looks a bit crazy.
<ev> - Short week; holiday on Friday.
<ev> - QA test automation sprinting Wednesday and Thursday.
<ev> - Looking into the various toolkit options for Wubi's future.  This involved
<ev>   setting up a Windows VM (yay new license), and testing the footprint of
<ev>   various WebKit embedding solutions (chromiumembedded, Awesomium, Pyside and
<ev>   QtWebKit, etc) as well as looking at the Ubuntu.com access logs to see just
<ev>   what percentage of Windows users have .NET 3.5 and thus WPF support.
<ev> - Finally got the GObject Introspection bindings working with Cheese.  Started
<ev>   building a test harness using v42loopback.
<ev> - Had a brief chat with mpt on the design of the wireless network page, and
<ev>   started implementing it using NetworkManager's fancy new 0.7 DBus API.
<ev> - Reviewed and merged maco's ubiquity branch to fix bug 791446.
<ev> TODO:
<ev> - Come up with a new installer testing system built around remote power and USB-driven
<ev>   images. Expense a pile of mini-ITX boards and further kit to Pete in advance
<ev>   of the sprint.
<ev> - Reply to the TB on measuring installation success/failure.  Get the
<ev>   implementation off the ground.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791446 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "kubuntu installer crashes daily-live 6-1-11: AttributeError: 'QCheckBox' object has no attribute 'set_sensitive'" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791446
<ev> (done)
<barry> short week (vacation on monday); bug 797281 (python-httplib2 breaking launchpadlib via lazr.restfulclient); foundations-o-python-versions (py3 cd size calculation); pep 382 planning - sprinted yesterday (summary to be posted); dh_python2 jam tomorrow in #ubuntu-pyjam; out this afternoon; done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 797281 in lazr.restfulclient "LP API broken in oneiric with python-httplib2 0.7.0-1" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/797281
<bdmurray> ubuntu qa pkg stats web pages fix for broken categories
<bdmurray> added in additional foundations packages to pkg stats scripts to make qa pkg pages
<bdmurray> branch and bug report for natty SRU of apport package hook for update-manager LP: #797894
<bdmurray> apt branch to deal with 'cannot access archive' package install failures
<bdmurray> queried launchpad for all ubuntu-foundations packages with upstream projects that use Launchpad for bug tracking
<bdmurray> updated grab-attachments in ubuntu-dev-tools to grab all attachments for a package's bugs
<bdmurray> investigation into and bug triage of initramfs-tools bugs regarding update-initramfs and lack of free space on /boot
<bdmurray> reduced new bug count in initramfs-tools by ~50% - http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/qapkgstatus/initramfs-tools
<bdmurray> bug triage of and pattern writing for msttcorefonts bug reports
<bdmurray> reduced new bug count in msttcorefonts by >50% - http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/qapkgstatus/msttcorefonts
<bdmurray> investigation into debconf bug 442941 and some duplicate consolidation from other packages
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 442941 in debconf (Ubuntu) "debconf failed to upgrade from 1.5.27ubuntu1 to 1.5.27ubuntu2: exit status 128 - Use of uninitialized value $reply in scalar chomp at /usr/share/perl5/Debconf/FrontEnd/Passthrough.pm line 66" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/442941
<bdmurray> troubleshooting and bug reporting regarding wireless issue on my laptop
<bdmurray> done
<slangasek> ev: is there a clear winner for webkit footprint?
 * cjwatson suspects that that debconf problem is actually a bug specific to package management frontends
<ev> slangasek: mail coming on that shortly, but the short answer is they're all about 8-10MB compressed
<ev> we might be able to get that down a bit further if we fine tune the ICU library
<slangasek> bdmurray: "broken categories" - sorry, what are 'categories' in context?
<bdmurray> cjwatson: at least with some of the msttcorefonts bugs I also saw messages regarding failure to accept the license
<ev> but that would likely be offset by the actual wubi code and libraries
<ev> as these were just hello world examples
<bdmurray> slangasek: categories are just groupings of packages (installer, gnome, etc) on the pkg status pages
<slangasek> ok
<jhunt> Is there some way we could automatically run "perl -c" on all packages with .p[lm] files in them to avoid bugs like 442941?
<slangasek> 50% reduction in new bugs on initramfs-tools - very nice!  Does that have any detectable impact on the rate at which new bugs are being filed?
<cjwatson> doing it on all packages would be pretty rough, but you could definitely do it package-by-package
<slangasek> ev: heh, 8-10MB handily rules out including it on the CD then, doesn't it
<cjwatson> but that's not the problem with 442941
<bdmurray> slangasek: yes as I wrote bug patterns to prevent the most commonly reported package installation failures
<cjwatson> debconf gives you that error when the other end of what it's talking to went away
<ev> slangasek: exactly. Though I am openly wondering how important that is to us.
<cjwatson> it's not a compile-time problem
<slangasek> ev: I am too :-)
<ev> admittedly, all the download managers I've seen (Microsoft's, for example) aren't any bigger than 3 MB or so.
<ev> and Wubi is effectively becoming one.
<slangasek> bdmurray: is it in the same range of 50% reduction of new bugs being filed?  Or maybe even higher?
<ev> with the USB and CD writing.
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> cjwatson: is there any sense in the last comment on 442941, claiming that it's related to using a root password vs. sudo?
<bdmurray> slangasek: no thinking about it possibly lower due to an apport bug
<slangasek> bdmurray: ah, ok
<cjwatson> slangasek: it doesn't make sense to me
<jhunt> cjwatson: interestingly enough though, "perl -c ...Passthrough.pm still gives warnings on natty (for another included file).
<cjwatson> jhunt: yeah, but it doesn't matter
<cjwatson> oh, that error is nonsense
 * slangasek idly wonders what the old monthly QA reports of Ubuntu bugs over time would show after bdmurray's run of squashing all the biggest duplicate bugs: )
<cjwatson> I think
<cjwatson> it at least isn't important, since it's only in an error case that hardly ever happens - I'll go have a look and see if it can be squashed though
<slangasek> doko is off today; cjwatson?
<cjwatson> I need to work on porting debconf's python bits to dh_python2 anyway ...
<cjwatson> o
<cjwatson> Fixed grub2 to handle encrypted btrfs /.
<cjwatson> Fixed parted regression due to Linux 3.0 versioning.
<cjwatson> Added BOOTIF= support to netcfg (Canonical support escalation).
<cjwatson> Added LightDM support to casper, user-setup, and ubiquity.
<cjwatson> Tracked down and fixed a weird dpkg triggers regression.
<cjwatson> Completed my work items for foundations-o-wubi - the hard bit was handling non-128 ext3/4 inode sizes.  Maybe with any luck I won't have to look at Wubi for the rest of the cycle? :-)
<cjwatson> Worked with Surbhi on D-Bus details for initctl pivot.
<cjwatson> Taught the installer to regenerate .pyc files and removed them from live filesystems (13MB or so).  Involved fixing a couple of Python module packages along the way.
<cjwatson> Started looking at IPv6 support in netcfg; much of this has been done for Debian, although it hasn't been landed and the developer doing the work has abandoned it, so I'll need to take that over.
<cjwatson> --
<slangasek> BOOTIF> whooo
<barry> cjwatson: py-stuff: \o/
<slangasek> wubi - that's the hope at least :), but per ev's report above we're still trying to nail down some of the basics about what we're expecting wubi to be at the end of the cycle that affect what skill set we need in a contractor
 * cjwatson nods
<cjwatson> I meant more that the rest of the work items are assigned to ev ... :-)
<slangasek> my turn then
<slangasek> ah :-)
 * ev peeks up from under the pile of them
<slangasek> - merged dpkg 1.16.0 so packages depending on it for multiarch can be in sync with Debian
<slangasek> - introduced a weird dpkg triggers regression that cjwatson tracked down and fixed ;P
<cjwatson> heh
<slangasek> - merged new upstream util-linux, nobody's come screaming so apparently no regressions in that one
<slangasek> - continuing to flush multiarch changes to Debian; ~65 library packages to go
<slangasek> - planning to look at the plymouth merge this week, to try to get that in place before the rally
<slangasek> EOF
<slangasek> stgraber:
<stgraber> So, last week: - Discussed arkose quite a bit with some people - Started implementing some extra aufs options into arkose - Proof of concept for firewalling in the containers - Updated my IPv6 test setup - Started looking at what's wrong with dhclient and IPv6
<cjwatson> slangasek: incidentally, if you want closure on dpkg, I think the problem was that in dpkg 1.16.0~ubuntu8 the timestamp on trigdeferred.c in the source tarball was older than that on trigdeferred.l, so it got rebuilt, but in 1.16.0.3ubuntu1 they had the same timestamp
<stgraber> This week: - Fixed dhclient.conf to work fine with IPv6 - Did some NetworkManager tests with cyphermox, hopefully we'll have IPv6 by default soon - Finally updated sssd to the new upstream release, closing quite a few bugs (version 1.5.8) - Figured out what was wrong with the new nbd in Debian and did the merge in Ubuntu - Had to deal with some abuse on the WebLive servers. Will blog about it soon.
<stgraber> Rest of the week: - Patch pilot this afternoon - Some more IPv6 tests - Hopefully a new release of Arkose with some bugfixes. - Friday is public holiday so I'll then see you all in Dublin on Sunday.
<stgraber> (done)
<stgraber> doh, copy/paste failed
<slangasek> cjwatson: right, figured it might be something like that
<cjwatson> stgraber: is overlayfs likely to be useful to you?  I noticed apw talking about it recently, and I expect that once overlayfs works for the live CD case they'll be keen to ditch aufs
<stgraber> for the long one: http://paste.ubuntu.com/630856/
<stgraber> cjwatson: yep, I'll have to look into that, especially to check it supports the same features as aufs
<stgraber> cjwatson: as I use some more features than what we use for our livecds (specifically the multiple branch feature)
<cjwatson> ah
<mvo> last week:
<mvo> update-manager: include apt_btrfs_snapshot in the upgrader, check for i8xx PCIIDs and warn on upgrade (LP: 774999)
<mvo> software-center: move from restfulclient to piston-mini-client for the SoftwareCenterAgent API calls (took a bit), code cleanup (add SpawnHelper), improve package descriptions parser, review/merge some branches, add htmlize_package_description, debshots: work on multiple screenshots for a single app, add json api for querying availalbe screenshots
<mvo> apt: review/sponsor apt natty SRU (#346386), work on libapt-pkg4.10 (with debian)
<mvo> apt-btrfs-snapshot: work on benchmarking apt/dpkg on btrfs, add "list-old-than 10d" support to the commandline
<mvo> work on  lp:~j-johan-edwards/archive-crawler/near-rewrite
<mvo> do a bunch of outstanding merges (and forward patches when appropriate) including aptitude which took a bit
<mvo> (done)
<mvo> Tomorrow is a public holiday, friday a vacation day for me
<mvo> (really done)
<barry> mvo: why the move away from restfulclient?
<mvo> barry: ISD is using piston-mini-client by default for all their stuff
<barry> mvo: ok! thx
<mvo> barry: I just follow them here, I don't really strong opionion about it
<mvo> only ubuntu sso is using restfulclient currently, once there is the piston api available (I was told soon) that will remove that last bit as well
<barry> make sense, since it keeps things in the django house
<mvo> yeah
<slangasek> django house, a very esoteric musical subgenre
<barry> :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> anything else that's new and groovy?
<slangasek> or new and hairy?
<slangasek> same ol', same ol', apparently :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:35.
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<mvo> thanks
<jhunt> thanks
<stgraber> thanks
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> while reviewing the new app-install-data stuff I noticed we have a "beer brewing calculator" now â¦ impressive, category is Engineering
<ScottK> Seems right.
 * mvo is impressed it even has a database with different recipes
<mvo> â¦ now we only need something like this for green tea too
 * patrickmw waves
<patrickmw> few more minutes :)
<jibel> \o
<patrickmw> nm, its 1700 utc now :) hello jibel
<jibel> Hey patrickmw
<patrickmw> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is patrickmw.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<patrickmw> Agenda:
<patrickmw> Previous Actions (all)
<patrickmw> bdmurray furhter research into the quantity of bug reports containing workarounds
<patrickmw> Community Efforts/Testing
<patrickmw> Automated/Systems Testing
<patrickmw> Engineering Team Bug Status
 * charlie-tca is in awe; the meeting page actually works
<patrickmw> Other Topics
<patrickmw> Chair Selection
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Previous Actions
<patrickmw> bdmurray?
<bdmurray> patrickmw: I did it let me find that email
<patrickmw> we'll come right back to you
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Community Efforts/Testing
<bdmurray> \o
<bdmurray> o/
<patrickmw> that was quick
<bdmurray> so initially I'd said about 720 bug reports had workarounds in the description
<bdmurray> come to find out my search was case sensitive and its more like 10,000
<bdmurray> In all fairness the documentation does say to use WORKAROUND
<jibel> bdmurray, it that opened bug reports only or fixed as well ?
<bdmurray> regardless workarounds have been documented a fair bit and these should be communicated more and better
<bdmurray> jibel: all bugs
<jibel> bdmurray, k
<bdmurray> patrickmw: that's it
<patrickmw> thank you, bdmurray.  back to community efforts
<patrickmw> pedro_, jibel?
<jibel> SRU testing
<jibel> Over the past week 874 packages have been published to stable releases
<jibel> The complete list is available at
<jibel> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sru/latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sru/latest.html
<jibel> * A total of 832 packages have been published to natty
<jibel>   * 4 packages published to natty-updates: foo2zjs, icedtea-web, sandboxgamemaker, xserver-xorg-input-synaptics
<jibel>   * 805 packages published to natty-security: firefox, 794 languages packs, flashplugin-nonfree,libvirt, libxml2, mozvoikko, nagios3, openjdk-6, openjdk-6b18, tgt, ubufox, webfav
<jibel>   * 23 packages published to natty-proposed: bindwood, byobu, bzr, curl, deja-dup, evince, firefox, fpc, gecko-mediaplayer, gxine, kde4libs, kdeutils, linux-firmware, moon, mozvoikko, ntp, oss4, quickly, software-center, unity, vlc, webfav, whois
<jibel> * A total of 17 packages have been published to maverick
<jibel>   * 2 packages published to maverick-updates: grub2, lupin
<jibel>   * 11 packages published to maverick-security: ejabberd, firefox, flashplugin-nonfree, libvirt, libxml2, nagios3, nbd, openjdk-6, openjdk-6b18, tgt, xulrunner-1.9.2
<jibel>   * 4 packages published to maverick-proposed: byobu, fpc, openssh, software-center
<jibel> * A total of 23 packages have been published to lucid
<jibel>   * 6 packages published to lucid-updates: dkms, dovecot, grub2, language-pack-gnome-fr, lupin, sysvinit
<jibel>   * 11 packages published to lucid-security: ejabberd, firefox, flashplugin-nonfree, libvirt, libxml2, nagios3, nbd, nginx, openjdk-6, openjdk-6b18, xulrunner-1.9.2
<jibel>   * 6 packages published to lucid-proposed: byobu, debian-installer, fpc, linux, netcfg, openssh
<jibel> * A total of 2 packages have been published to hardy-security: libxml2, nbd
<jibel> Thanks to everyone who helped with testing.
<jibel> micahg, sent a call for testing for firefox in Natty
<jibel> Next Oneiric milestone is in 2 weeks, but you can test daily builds until then.
<jibel> and that's all for today
<jibel> pedro_, ? any news on bugdays ?
<pedro_> Hello, Yes!
<pedro_> there's a bug day being organized for tomorrow: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20110623
<pedro_> Unity is the target , so if you use Oneiric and want to contribute a little to make Unity rock please join us
<pedro_> as always the *whole* day your timezone at #ubuntu-bugs
<pedro_> ..
<patrickmw> thanks, guys
<patrickmw> [Automated/Systems Testing]
<patrickmw> boo
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Automated/Systems Testing
<patrickmw> = What was done last week =
<patrickmw> The Automation Sprint was productive and we have been able to set goals for Oneiric and beyond. The three highest priority testing items:
<patrickmw> * ISO server and EC2 image testing
<patrickmw> * Kernel SRU testing
<patrickmw> * Installer testing
<patrickmw> Other projects:
<patrickmw> * Public Jenkins viewing instance
<patrickmw> * testing notifications mailing list
<patrickmw> * ISO server tests have been migrated to the new lab
<patrickmw> = What's happening this week =
<patrickmw> * Running the tests for all images is now 8x faster.  The CPU load on the system averaged around 30%.  The current bottleneck is IO.  Once we get the new drives added we should see increased performance.
<patrickmw> * EC2 access has been configured and we will be setting up EC2 tests
<patrickmw> * The kernel sru testing project is undergoing modifications to prepare for Alpha 2 kernel testing
<patrickmw> = What we need to move forward =
<patrickmw> * Awaiting new hardware for Installer test environment
<patrickmw> Questions?
<jibel> o/
<patrickmw> yes?
<jibel> not a question, just some infos about Wubi testing
<jibel> Some good progress this week, I added a noninteractive mode to Wubi and I'm now able to run a wubi installation completely automatically.
<jibel> I expect to finish the automated tests of Wubi tomorrow after some polishing and testing.
<jibel> Some details still remains like selecting Ubuntu by default before reboot then back to windows by default for next run,
<jibel> switching the default windows user to auto login,
<jibel> how to start a jenkins job in Windows and report the results from Ubuntu
<jibel> and how to remove all those Ads installed by default on Windows and which pop up continuously during the test run
<jibel> I hope we'll be able to add the test machine to the automated test run next week. We have to figure
<jibel> remove the "We have to figure" c/p error
<jibel> This doesn't replace what ev plan to do with kvm autotest of course
<jibel> ..
<patrickmw> awesome!
<patrickmw> unless there is anything else we're moving on in 3
<patrickmw> 2
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Engineering Team Bug Status
<patrickmw> who wants to start?
<bdmurray> \o/
<patrickmw> go, sir!
<bdmurray> updated grab-attachments in ubuntu-dev-tools to grab all attachments for a package's bugs
<bdmurray> reduced new bug count in initramfs-tools by ~50% - http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/qapkgstatus/initramfs-tools
<bdmurray> some details at http://www.murraytwins.com/blog/?p=104
<bdmurray> reduced new bug count in msttcorefonts by >50% - http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/qapkgstatus/msttcorefonts
<bdmurray> looked into some debconf package install failures bug 442941
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 442941 in debconf (Ubuntu) "debconf failed to upgrade from 1.5.27ubuntu1 to 1.5.27ubuntu2: exit status 128 - Use of uninitialized value $reply in scalar chomp at /usr/share/perl5/Debconf/FrontEnd/Passthrough.pm line 66" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/442941
<bdmurray> I added in some additional foundations packages to the package status pages
<bdmurray> . done .
<patrickmw> danke
<jibel> bdmurray, that's fantastic. I think bug 349469 could benefit of your magic too.
<patrickmw> pedro_, any updates for Desktop?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 349469 in debconf (Ubuntu) "debconf: DbDriver "config": /var/cache/debconf/config.dat is locked by another process: Resource temporarily unavailable" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/349469
<jibel> there are quite a bunch
<pedro_> patrickmw, nope , the bug day was my item for it and already covered
<bdmurray> jibel: thanks I've seen some of those but hadn't looked for the master yet
<patrickmw> great. did I miss anyone?
<patrickmw> not sure if jibel or hggdh have updates this section
<jibel> nothing from me.
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Other Topics
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Topics
<patrickmw> open floor
<bdmurray> \o
<patrickmw> bdmurray, go ahead :) - your arm must be tired
<bdmurray> As a general statement bug patterns can be really really helpful for consolidation duplicate bug reports and preventing further bug reports.
<bdmurray> I've seen some cases where people have been manually marking duplicates for bugs reported by apport where a pattern would have made things a lot easier for them.
<bdmurray> ..
<patrickmw> bdmurray: is there a list on the wiki of common bug patterns?
<bdmurray> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport/DeveloperHowTo#Bug_patterns
<patrickmw> there ya go peeps
<jibel> bdmurray, will you give a session about bug patterns at next udw ?
<bdmurray> jibel: when is that again?
<jibel> in 3 weeks iircs
<jibel> 11th July
<jibel> to 15th
<bdmurray> jibel: okay signing up
<patrickmw> thanks again, bdmurray. any other topics?
<jibel> or more generally how to take advantage of bug patterns, grab-attachment and other lp tools
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
<MootBot> New Topic:  Chair Selection
<patrickmw> jibel?
<hggdh> sorry, was out on a medical procedure, and am still groggy
<jibel> Sure, I'll chair next meeting.
<patrickmw> jibel, thank you very much
<jibel> yw
<patrickmw> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:31.
<jibel> Thanks for chairing patrickmw
<pedro_> thanks
<patrickmw> my pleasure
<charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing, patrickmw
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-23
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:58. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> G'day NCommander
 * NCommander sleeply waves
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110526https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110526
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110526https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110526
<NCommander> er, none
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> I just realized I posted the wrong link
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110623
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110623
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to get Documentation spec approved
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to get Documentation spec approved
<NCommander> c/o
<NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<ogra> we look bad ...
<ogra> but with dublin ahead that should not matter
<NCommander> ++
<NCommander> anything else or can I move on?
<ogra> move
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<NCommander> Slow week. Did some work creating udebs, and determined my panda was fried.
<ogra> the existing PXE code is uploaded though
<NCommander> \o/
<ogra> havent tested how complete it is yet
<NCommander> we've got the sprint, we'll catch up there
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti, ppisati)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti, ppisati)
<ogra> yep
<ppisati> nothing exciting: usual tons of cve fixes
<ogra> any news regarding the usb issue ?
<ppisati> and...
<ppisati> the usb issue has been fixed & committed :)
<ogra> \o/
<GrueMaster> woot
<ppisati> yep
<NCommander> yay
<ppisati> btw i'm bit low on stuff, so if you have any outstading issue
<ppisati> feel free to throw it to me
<ogra> we'll get you stuff next week, dont worry
<ppisati> BTW, bring some otg stuff to dublin since it seems i can't make it work
 * NCommander throws a trout at ppisati 
<ppisati> :)
<ogra> sprints are good for collecting bugs
<GrueMaster> Ohhh yeaaa.
<ppisati> you can move from my pov
<ppisati> ah no
<ppisati> wait
<ppisati> tegra2?
<GrueMaster> ppisati: I'll bring you an OTG cable.
<ppisati> GrueMaster: i've all kinds of otg cables but it seems it doesn't make any difference for my xm
<ppisati> GrueMaster: anyway, bring it, thanks
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<NCommander> telepathy-glib has kicked out asses
 * ogra looks at infinity 
<ogra> your sync ftbfs
<ogra> sadly empathy gets uninstallable through that
<ogra> so we dont get images
<NCommander> anything else?
 * ogra would like to have a recent image before the sprint ... 
<davidm> Yes that would be nice
<ogra> should we drop ampathy for now ?
<ogra> *empathy
<davidm> Yes if need be
<NCommander> ++
<ogra> i'm not sure if there is more in the desktop seed
<davidm> I really don't want to block on that
<ogra> more depending on telepathy-glib i mean
<infinity> Err, oh.  Right.  Meeting.
<infinity> NCommander: tp-glib is suffering from "lp-buildd is broken" issues.
<infinity> ogra: No need to drop empathy, I'll just bump the test timeout in tp-glib to something stupidly high to work around twistd.
<NCommander> ugh
 * infinity will throw a test upload at his PPA right now and see if it sticks.
<ogra> infinity, ok, if we dont have a binary by tomorrow evening i'll drop it though
<infinity> ogra: *nod*
<ogra> so we have a chance to get an image over the weekend
<infinity> ogra: If you do, file a bug against soyuz, it's not actually a tp-glib issue.
<ogra> well, thats only temporary indeed, we can corner StevenK in dublin to fix it ;)
 * NCommander packs duct tape and a staple gun
<NCommander> k
<NCommander> can we ove?
<ogra> nothing else from me
<ogra> (and partially also already the image topic :) )
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
 * GrueMaster hasn't ove'd in years
<ogra> GrueMaster, oh ? why not ?
<ogra> well ... image status, headles builds fine, i havent tested a single one since a while though
<ogra> desktop doesnt ... see above :)
<NCommander> is there anything else?
<GrueMaster> Tested headless omap4 on Tuesday.  Still works.
 * NCommander doesn't have anything to add
<ogra> great
<GrueMaster> Good progress on netboot.
<ogra> jasper will need preseed file support for server preinstalled
<ogra> we need to discuss where to put that file in dublin
<ogra> since unlike in d-i images it will persist on the FS
<NCommander> ogra: /var/cache/installer/preseed?
<ogra> something like that
<NCommander> oro something like that
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> anything else?
<ogra> the coding will be trivial, but i somehow cant make up my mind about the file :)
<ogra> nothing else here
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Oh, that's me.
<GrueMaster> I have my relay now fully operational and online.  I can remotely control 2 pandas atm (limited to pandas on hand).
<ogra> you should patent that and sell it to zoos ;)
<GrueMaster> Work progressing on ramping up jenkins automation environment.  Lots of questions for the QA guys next week.
<GrueMaster> filesystem benchmark testing is very slow & manual.  Each run takes 84 hours and then I have to reformat & restore the rootfs.
<ogra> how do you benchmark exactly ?
<GrueMaster> I'm using the phoronix filesystem benchmarks.
<ogra> i think actually just producing different bootcharts for different filesystems should already show some markers
<GrueMaster> All the fs benchmarking tools in one convenient package.
<GrueMaster> Not reliable.
<ogra> reliable for boot time measuring
<ogra> indeed not for a full filesystem benchmark
<GrueMaster> filesystem testing is more than just booting.
<ogra> i didnt say it isnt :)
<GrueMaster> And my task is to benchmark filesystems.  This seemed the best way.
<ogra> but getting a bootchart is a matter of seconds
<NCommander> ogra: but bootchart is mostly read and sequencish IO
<ogra> sure
<NCommander> not nightmarish abuse that phoronix does
<GrueMaster> exactly.
<ogra> its only one aspect
<ogra> but low hanging fruit wrt data gathering
<NCommander> invalid datat though.
<ogra> no
<NCommander> would give us skrewed results
<GrueMaster> Our boot performance isn't the issue (actually boot time is very impressive).
<infinity> bootcharting (especially with intelligent readahead stuff in play) isn't testing your filesystem at all, just the speed of your disk.
<ogra> would give us tendency about reading on different filesystems while the full suite runs
<infinity> Since most boot tricks are designed to work AROUND the filesystem. :P
<GrueMaster> My panda boots nearly at the same speed as my netbook with SSD.
<ogra> from power on to desktop ?
<GrueMaster> ogra: You would be looking at a few milliseconds in differences.
<GrueMaster> yes.
<infinity> And yeah, my Panda boots impressively quickly.
<infinity> And then takes 20 minutes to load Firefox while I go for lunch.
<ogra> intresting, your netbook must have a slow bios :)
<GrueMaster> The u-boot delay is close to the bios init time on my netbook.
<ogra> infinity, far from whats possible
 * rsalveti waves
<ogra> u-boot steals massive amounts of time
<rsalveti> should we change u-boot count time for 1, 2 seconds?
<GrueMaster> 4 seconds of u-boot countdown.
<GrueMaster> currently
<GrueMaster> 10 on beagle.
<ogra> plus about 10-12 for loading initrd and kernel
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: I believe 10 will be fixed in next u-boot upload
<GrueMaster> Really?
<rsalveti> that should be coming today or tomorrow
<rsalveti> nops, it's fast now
<rsalveti> 2, 3 secs to load
<rsalveti> at least on panda/beagle
<rsalveti> because of the multi block read
<ogra> oh, then it improved
<GrueMaster> ogra: Not sure why you are seeing such slow kernel & initrd load times.  Mine is maybe .5 seconds.
<rsalveti> just firefox that's a pita atm
<rsalveti> I can make a fresh coffee when I decided to start it
<GrueMaster> heh
<ogra> GrueMaster, from end of countdown to the "ucompressing kernel" message its .5s ?
<GrueMaster> roughly for each, yes.
<ogra> i'm surely not seeing such times
<infinity> rsalveti: Firefox may as well be the "vicious filesystem test" we're looking for, once it's been used a bit.  Cause loading the profile and parsing history, etc, is just evil on a randomly-accessed/abused SD.
<GrueMaster> I'll try to time it with a stopwatch.
<ogra> though i havent tried oeniric on my panda yet
<rsalveti> infinity: yeah, did you try to profile it already?
<GrueMaster> That was true even with natty beta+
<ogra> will pull a headless image, thats actually something i want to see
<infinity> rsalveti: No, I just plugged in an external hard drive, thus preventing my urge to launch my Panda out the window.
<rsalveti> :-)
<GrueMaster> headless & netbook should have the same start times prior to mounting rootfs and running init from there.
 * ogra just uses chromium :)
<NCommander> anything els or can I move on?
<GrueMaster> chromium is not on the image.  invalid test procedure.
<GrueMaster> move.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> well, surely not invalid :)
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<GrueMaster> for filesystem abuse?  yes it is if it doesn't do the same thrashing.
 * ogra is pretty sure fta likes to get arm bugs from actual users :)
<ogra> GrueMaster, no, for having a usable browser :)
<infinity> (The real fun is when you start swapping to a swap file on the SD, and realise that you probably would have rather just had the OOM killer pick something at random to slaughter than put up with swapping to the same SD you're trying to randomly read/write to)
<ogra> not for FS abuse testing
<NCommander> if nothing else will close the meeting out
<NCommander> 3
<NCommander> 2
<davidm> Folks for the ARM Server Project test against USB HD
<ogra> infinity, well, tell that to the guy with the 200 page writer document open he just wrote :)
<davidm> not SD card time please
<infinity> davidm: Yeah, and I'm VERY pleased with the Panda with a USB HDD.
<NCommander> thanks davidm
<ogra> i rarther wait 20min for my system to return than having OOM kick in in such a case
<GrueMaster> davidm: planned on it.
<davidm> I do want to figure out the SD card issues but that may be a hardware issue
<davidm> and un fixable by us
<NCommander> ogra: you can force that by smacking with knobs with sysctl)
<davidm> I'm looking forward to next week
<ogra> NCommander, i can also have a swapfile and swppiness set to 1
<GrueMaster> davidm: The idea behind the filesystem benchmarking & improvement was doing the best with what we have.
<NCommander> anyway, can I close the meeting now?
<ogra> which gets me the overflow memory on disk
<NCommander> guess not
<GrueMaster> NCommander: Wait 5.
<ogra> instead of stealoing from another app
<ogra> close :)
<davidm> Close
 * ogra doesnt have anything
<GrueMaster> done
<infinity> davidm: And I concur.  I'm loooking forward to seeing everyone again.  Face-time makes a huge difference sometimes.
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:36.
 * NCommander goes back to faceplanting
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-24
<MooDoo> morning
<MooDoo> em, you having connection issues?
<Daviey> o/
 * wendar waves
 * joshuahoover waves
 * ogra has oniric xorg stability issues today ... and hopes he doesnt crash again 
<ogra> *oneiric
 * charlie-tca waves
<wendar> ogra: :(
<wendar> let's get started...
<wendar> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is wendar.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * jdstrand waves
<pitti> hey wendar
<wendar> [Topic] Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar
<wendar> pitti: hey
<wendar> skaet is on holiday this week, I'll be substituting.
<wendar> Agenda is at:
<wendar> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-06-24
<wendar> No changes requested, so we're following the regular agenda order in the agenda wiki page and meeting invite.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-06-24
<wendar> .
<wendar> Events Approaching:
<wendar> - Debian Import Freeze: June 30, 2011
<wendar> - 10.04.3 Freeze: June 30, 2011
<wendar> - Oneiric Alpha 2: July 7, 2011
<wendar> Bugs targetted for this release can be found:
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs
<wendar> Bugs milestoned for oneiric alpha 2 are at:
<wendar> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/oneiric-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/oneiric-alpha-2
<wendar> .
<wendar> Reminder: please use ".." on separate line when you've finished
<wendar> typing. If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/",
<wendar> so we know to wait.
<wendar> questions?
<wendar> ..
<wendar> If not, then let's go on to the round table
<wendar> [Topic] QA team update -  pgraner or jibel
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update -  pgraner or jibel
<wendar> possibly traveling to the rally?
<wendar> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - brendand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - brendand
<ara> wendar, mlegris present for the hwcert team
<mlegris> :)
<mlegris> This week is our first weekly testing with Oneiric. Due to how the image is now being built we had to update our extraction tools for PXE boot and update certification.canonical.com to allow 11.10 submissions.
<mlegris> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<mlegris> Some issues:
<mlegris>  * Alternate and server images are missing at least one file that we need (pxelinux.0)
<mlegris>  * Oneiric tests will need updating
<mlegris>  * Bug# 708286 seems to be now fixed in Oneiric. We will keep the Natty task opened until we retested it with the new kernel
<cjwatson> mlegris: pxelinux.0> should be fixed in the next round of images
<mlegris> cjwatson: awesome, ty
<mlegris> ..
<wendar> excellent
<wendar> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> We are currently still under the trend line for our blueprints but our team is mostly concentrating on updates atm, and getting to work items as we can fit them in. We are looking forward to putting time in on work items next week at the rally.
<jdstrand> We did manage to fix quite a few small bugs this week and I filed bug #801569 today, which was discovered when the server team tried to do the latest libvirt merge. I've identified the problem, wrote a patch and am in the process of getting it upstreamed. I will be uploading the merge with this fix today.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 801569 in libvirt (Ubuntu Oneiric) "apparmor security driver broken in 0.9.2" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/801569
<jdstrand> Looking at the (very long) list of oneiric bugs, I don't see anything else worth highlighting.
<jdstrand> ..
<wendar> [Topic] Kernel team update - ogasawara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - ogasawara
<ogasawara> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> We're still making slow progress on our Alpha-2 work items as they are not release critical and keep getting pushed to the bottom of the stack.  Most will shift to Alpha-3.  We plan to upload another kernel today.  This kernel will have been rebased on the most recent v3.0-rc4 upstream kernel.
<ogasawara> Of the bugs called out in the agenda, status is as follows:
<ogasawara> #754711 investigation continues, still no feedback from upstream.
<ogasawara> #542660 seems that the issue is triggered by bugs in the EFI boot.  Some fixes may be in 3.0 needs testing.
<ogasawara> #760131 testing looks good with newer 3.0 kernels.  Fixes expected via stable for 2.6.38.
<ogasawara> Questions?
<ogasawara> ..
<cjwatson> yeah, word from mjg59 is that EFI booting should generally be happier in 3.0; in particular I think it fixes a bug that was fatal on my test machine so I hope to be able to do more EFI work from here on it
<cjwatson> *on in
<ogasawara> cool
<cjwatson> (though that's a different problem from the one in that bug)
<wendar> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> Generally hovering around or slightly over the trend line.  There's a good chunk of stuff in progress so I'm happy with this.
<cjwatson> Feature progress this week:
<cjwatson>  * Upstart 1.3 landed in Oneiric.  Improved shutdown handling (foundations-o-upstart-for-admins) should come soon.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-wubi: Looking into Windows toolkit options for future Wubi work.  wubildr.mbr no longer gets upset by ext3/ext4 filesystems with inode sizes other than 128 (i.e. most modern ones), and the GRUB menu for Wubi installations no longer lists Windows and so can often be hidden.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-ubiquity: Started implementing new wireless network page.  Working on test harness with Cheese's GI bindings.
<cjwatson>  * dh_python2 porting jam held yesterday.  I count 13 people (modulo counting errors) who showed up and were working on porting packages.  I don't have stats on how much work was done yet, but it felt pretty useful; we're six packages away from being able to kick python-central off the desktop CD (most of which have patches now), and 38 away from kicking it out of main.
<cjwatson>  * Serious dent made in initramfs-tools bug reports by analysing bugs due to lack of free space in /boot (http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/qapkgstatus/initramfs-tools).
<cjwatson>  * desktop-o-cdspace: .pyc files now removed from squashfs and regenerated on installation, saving over 12MB.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-multiarch-next-steps: Continuing to flush changes to Debian; ~65 library packages to go.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-application-sandboxing: Started implementing some extra aufs options in Arkose; proof of concept for firewalling in containers.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-ipv6-healthcheck: Fixed dhclient.conf to work properly with IPv6.  NetworkManager testing with cyphermox; hopefully we'll have IPv6 by default there soon.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-corporate-mirs: Updated sssd to new upstream version 1.5.8.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-update-manager-btrfs: Included apt-btrfs-snapshot in the upgrader.  Profiling work with apt/dpkg on btrfs.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-ratings-and-reviews-in-software-center: Switched from restfulclient to piston-mini-client to match ISD.
<cjwatson> Bugs:
<cjwatson>  * Bug 597673: I looked at this earlier today and it's about four times as hard as I'd expected.  Will hopefully attack it at the rally.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 597673 in console-cyrillic (Ubuntu Oneiric) "console-cyrillic changes settings on consoles it doesn't own, causing crashes with plymouth + X" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/597673
<cjwatson>  * Bug 644198: moved to beta 1 per Evan.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 644198 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Ubuntu LIve Cd does not enable bluetooth before choice menu in live-cd" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/644198
<cjwatson>  * Bug 791883: Colin is working on this, but slowed by a network made of cheese.  Should be able to deal with it by EOD today.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791883 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "ubi-console-setup.py:set_keyboard() gets error 141 (crashes) in Kubuntu" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791883
<cjwatson>  * Bug 797556: forwarded to internal RT - not projected to happen until after alpha 2, though, so moved to alpha 3.  (Still not a Foundations bug but apparently it's stuck to our list.)
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 797556 could not be found
<cjwatson> ..
 * pitti applauds cjwatson for the .pyc fix
<cjwatson> oh, one more thing, not strictly foundations but while I'm here
<cjwatson> Lubuntu's very close to being enabled; we haven't got the new disks provisioned yet, but some other changes mean we have enough space to get started for the moment
 * wendar seconds the applause
<cjwatson> at this point I'm just waiting for a Launchpad fix to be deployed to the archive master system, and then we should be good to go
<ogra> note that armel might eat up more space too very soon
<cjwatson> should be no problem having daily builds of that going by alpha-2
<ogra> (server and community images ahead)
<Daviey> cjwatson: Is there expected to be enough space on cdimage to evetually move the cloud images over to there from uec-images?  Or should they remain?
<cjwatson> Daviey: not right now, but that should eventually be possible
<Daviey> cjwatson: Ok, thanks
<cjwatson> ogra: ack
<wendar> any more questions for cjwatson?
<wendar> [Topic] Server team update - Daviey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - Daviey
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> Hi All
<Daviey> Overview Status:
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<Daviey> (Still need to reset the trend line)
<Daviey> Incoming bug count is still really low for Oneiric.  Majority of bugs are those found by developers at the moment (as is usual for this stage in the cycle).  More help with testing would be helpful.
<Daviey> In regards to merges and sync's, we are looking pretty good with the packages we track for delta to Debian.
<Daviey> However, according the WI tracker, we are appearing to be a little beind on feature development.  Many things are underway to allow WI's to progress.  Generally, it's not a massive concern, this is expected to be largely solved next week during the Rally.
<Daviey> We have quite alot of MIR's we'd like to achieve before Alpha 3.  They are currently being tracked using the tag 'server-o-mir'.  The list is going to grow. :(
<Daviey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=server-o-mir
<Daviey> Importiant Bugs:
<Daviey> 791454 - Oneiric Alpha1 Server x86 and x86_64 RAID1 Test Failed: Device need to be readded manually
<Daviey> -- Will be addressed next week.
<Daviey> 801494 - Multi part LVM layout: system fails to boot due to missing volumes
<Daviey> -- Reported today, not investigated - expected to delve into next week.
<Daviey> 801569 - libvirt apparmor security driver broken in 0.9.2
<Daviey> -- jdstrand is investigating.
<Daviey> ..
 * jdstrand fixed it :)
<Daviey> (one more thing, if anyone has identified a bug that isn't being tracked, please let me know)
<Daviey> jdstrand == rockstar
<jdstrand> pfft
<jdstrand> but thanks :)
<wendar> [Topic] ARM team update - ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra
<ogra> wohoo, thats me !
<ogra> Full Status is at:
<ogra>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogra> --
<ogra> Summary:
<ogra>  * Remote booting of pandas via relay for the PPA build cluster is implemented.
<ogra>  * telepathy-glib, the always re-occuring ftbfs package was finally fixed with an upstream patch (thanks infinity !) this makes image building work again for preinstalled desktop
<ogra>  * u-boot with PXE boot support landed in the archive and is being inspected atm and next week.
<ogra>  * desktop seeds were fixed to not ship *all* langpacks on armel images, that should get us back to normally sized images soon
<ogra>  * USB support of the OMAP kernels was fixed.
<ogra>  * Work on fixing the kernel/bootloader postinst handling is going on and will extend into next week.
<ogra> --
<ogra> Image Status:
<ogra>  * Desktop images are finally building again
<ogra>  * Headless/serial images build fine.
<ogra> --
<ogra> Specs:
<ogra> Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<ogra> A2 http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<ogra> --
<ogra> Bugs:
<ogra> * as noted above "791552 [oneiric] USB support broken on omap" was fixed
<ogra> ..
<ogra> oh, and i heard that panda A3 boards have been proven to boot with our natty images :)
<ogra> ..
<rsalveti> ogra: maybe you want to track bug 789198
<wendar> yes, I did a natty install on my new A3 yesterday :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 789198 in Linaro-Ubuntu "Firefox crashes when attempting to play webm video on ARM with Thumb2 enabled" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/789198
<ogra> rsalveti, oh, thanks, yeah
<ogra> wendar, yes, thats what i'm referring to :) you were the highlight in our team call yesterday ;)
<wendar> twas quite satisfying to see it work first try with no changes needed on a new rev of the hardware
<ogra> :)
<wendar> my compliments to the chefs :)
<ogra> heh, thanks :)
<ogra> and thanks for the feedback
<wendar> other questions/comments for ogra?
<wendar> [Topic] Linaro update - fabo
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - fabo
<wendar> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team -  Chipaca
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team -  Chipaca
<wendar> [Topic] Desktop Team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team update - pitti
<pitti> hi
<pitti> We landed some more bits of the GNOME 3.1.x development versions, going well so far.
<pitti> We also got the indicator stack and unity ports for GTK3 mostly ready and in oneiric, remaining bits will land next week.
<pitti> Default umask for users with private user groups is now 0002. (UbuntuSpec:umask-to-0002).
<pitti> Made a big push on alpha-2 work items, and got enough of them done to get us (almost) back to the trend line:
<pitti> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-desktop-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-desktop-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<pitti> Jason and I also discussed blueprints which we can postpone/drop, so we should have enough fodder for future adjustments.
<pitti> This week the LLVM gallium X.org drivers and deja-dup landed, adding another 7 MB. Except for Thunderbird, we now have everything "big and new" on the CD that was planned for oneiric, so we are now looking at an upper bound of CD size.
<pitti> CD space situation: Colin landed the .pyc reduction (12 MB) and with some other small cleanup we are down to 6 MB(i386)/ 4 (amd64) oversizedness. There will be some more reduction in the next time due to obsolete library cleanup (Mono mostly), and dropping python 2.6 will buy us another couple of MB, so together with the projected 703 MB images the pain level is now pretty low again; Thunderbird
<pitti> size reduction/evaluation is still going on, though.
<pitti> Slow progress on RC bugs, as we are concentrating on updating the platform and getting work items done in this period, and there are no real showstopper bugs right now. Details:
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus#rcbugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus#rcbugs
<pitti> ..
<joshuahoover> wendar: i'm giving the u1 update...sorry...want me to go?
<wendar> joshuahoover: yes, go ahead
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/OneiricReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/OneiricReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> we're putting out new releases for u1-client and ubuntu-sso-client today to fix some high/critical bugs that prevent u1 from connecting/working properly in oneiric
<joshuahoover> milestones with bugs being fixed in the releases are:
<joshuahoover> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-sso-client/+milestone/1.3.1https://launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client/+milestone/1.7.0
<joshuahoover> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-sso-client/+milestone/1.3.1
<joshuahoover> https://launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client/+milestone/1.7.0
<joshuahoover> defining how we update the client going forward is still on-going...Chipaca is working on it & we should have something more concrete to show sometime next week
<joshuahoover> --
<cjwatson> joshuahoover: could you move ubuntuone-client over from python-support to dh_python2 while you're at it?
<cjwatson> http://wiki.debian.org/Python/PythonSupportToDHPython2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.debian.org/Python/PythonSupportToDHPython2
<joshuahoover> cjwatson: i'll pass that on to dobey :)
<cjwatson> ta
<cjwatson> oh, and ubuntuone-control-panel and ubuntuone-storage-protocol too (may need to be at the same time depending on how you're using namespaces)
<wendar> sounds good, looking forward to Chipaca's work on client updates
<wendar> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hi
<wendar> hi
<dbarth> oops, back; thanks freenode
<dbarth> still me on?
<ScottK> Yes
<dbarth> ok
<dbarth> so was saying report at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/OneiricReleaseStatus
<dbarth> the main news distro wise is unity 4.0
<dbarth> the branch finally made it into oneiric, fixing numerous last minute integration issues
<dbarth> now we know it works for real, including the shared lib
<dbarth> a batch of indicators stack uploads as well
<dbarth> to prepare for the gtk3 switch next week
<dbarth> the base for the new theme in GTK3
<dbarth> also in oneiric (for testing only, there are still a lot of rough edges)
<dbarth> that's mostly it; the week was mostly spend planning for our new iteration, diving into the design of new modules we're developing
<dbarth> and preparing some new branches
<dbarth> ..
<dbarth> ah, one important note though:
<dbarth> Natty SRU fixes: none this week, the next one is planned in 2 weeks (after Dublin) and should be the last batch for this cycle
<dbarth> as discussed at uds, we'll stop with srus around mid-cycle
<dbarth> .. for real now
<dbarth> ;)
<wendar> excellent, smooth scheduling
<wendar> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<ScottK> Hello.
<ScottK> Currently working on packaging KDE 4.7 RC1 - Missed Beta 1 and Beta 2 due to changes in upstream tarball arrangement (KDE moved from SVN to Git and did a lot of project decomposition in the process).  Working on redoing the packaging, but it's slow.  I still expect to be on KDE 4.7 something by Alpha 2.
<wendar> hi :)
<ScottK> Lots of good work in the Qt world this week.  Wacom tablet regressions due to touch changes were fixed (by cnd) in oneiric and an updated SRU for natty is pending.  Got the Qt accessibility patches from 4.8 backported.  The initial upload for Qt changes to support qt-sni were just uploaded today.
<ScottK> The latest upload will hit binary New.  I'll look at it over the weekend so work on getting the plugins landed can start next week.
<ScottK> ..
<ScottK> Any questions?
<ScottK> I think the latest Qt stuff means that unity-2d has all the building blocks it's needing.
<ScottK> The rest is in separate packages.
<wendar> [Topic] Edubuntu Team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Edubuntu Team update
<wendar> [Topic] Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<MootBot> New Topic:  Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<ScottK> Usually the other flavors don't show up since it's only recently they were added to the agenda.
<charlie-tca> Hi
<charlie-tca> * For the record, Xubuntu will remain with GTK2 for Oneiric, with as little GTK3 as possible.
<charlie-tca> Since Xubuntu is based on Xfce 4.8, and Xfce has made the decision to not move to GTK3, we will need to keep GTK2.
<charlie-tca> At this time, Xfce plans on remaining with GTK2 for Xfce 4.10, due in January 2012.
<charlie-tca> * Xubuntu images are oversized. This is not unexpected at this time in the cycle.
<charlie-tca> * all images are working with the exception of the live desktop; install can be done from the cd menu.
<charlie-tca> Two bugs causing the Xubuntu team some issues:
<charlie-tca> http://pad.lv/799238  Xubuntu amd64 20110618 xserver abort
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/799238  Xubuntu amd64 20110618 xserver abort
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 799238 in casper (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu amd64 20110618 xserver abort" [Medium,Triaged]
<charlie-tca> is blocking the login to the Xubuntu live sessions. We don't even get a graphical login screen.
<charlie-tca> http://pad.lv/799754  Please register lightdm.conf in the alternatives system
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/799754  Please register lightdm.conf in the alternatives system
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 799754 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "Please register lightdm.conf in the alternatives system" [Undecided,New]
<charlie-tca> would be really helpful, but we understand things will take time to iron out with lightdm.
<charlie-tca> ..
<wendar> any questions for charlie-tca?
<wendar> [Topic] Toolchain update - slangasek
<MootBot> New Topic:  Toolchain update - slangasek
<slangasek> hey there
<slangasek> not much to update this week - doko was out much of the week
<slangasek> gcc 4.6.1 is planned for upload next week
<slangasek> eglibc 2.14 is still being evaluated due to the breakage that will be introduced by dropping rpc support
<slangasek> we should know more next week about that
<slangasek> EOF
<wendar> [Topic] MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> Hi,
<tumbleweed> FTBFS count still high, but I've seen a fair number of people working on toolchain related issues. Expect an announcement for a bug-squashing jam for them next week.
<tumbleweed> Got some preliminary FTBFS historical graphs up.
<tumbleweed> The code isn't quite ready for merging into ubuntuwire QA's page yet, now that I have some history I must play with it more.
<tumbleweed> http://corelli.tumbleweed.org.za/ubuntu-qa/qa-ftbfs/oneiric-historical.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://corelli.tumbleweed.org.za/ubuntu-qa/qa-ftbfs/oneiric-historical.html
<tumbleweed> ..
<wendar> next week is a good time for a bug squashing jam
<wendar> did I miss anyone in the round table?
<wendar> or any other comments or questions?
<ScottK> Did Linaro report?
<ogra> no
<ScottK> Is fabo around?
<wendar> no, perhaps fabo's not here
<ScottK> Oh, I see it in the backscroll now.
<wendar> he's on the channel, but not necessarily actually here
<ScottK> It is late for him.
<wendar> Sounds like no more questions
<wendar> We'll call that a wrap
<wendar> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<ogra> thanks wendar !
<wendar> Thanks mlegris, jdstrand, ogaswara, cjwatson, Daviey, ogra, pitti,
<wendar> joshuahoover, dbarth, ScottK, charlie-tca, slangasek, tumbleweed, and all!
<pitti> thanks all, have a good weekend
<joshuahoover> thanks wendar
<jdstrand> wendar: thanks!
<slangasek> thanks
<charlie-tca> wendar: thanks for chairing
<wendar> charlie-tca: glad to give skaet a break :)
<apw> wendar, might be a record length too :)
<ogra> ++
<ogra> that was extermely effective
<wendar> apw, ogra: :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-26
 * genii-around sips
<IdleOne> IRCC no meeting today?
 * genii-around makes more coffee and waits
<io> IdleOne: there's an IRC council meeting and gaming team meeting on the calendar
<IdleOne> doesn't look like the irc council is around
<io> IdleOne: the IRC council meeting seems to be 14 minutes late, though
<IdleOne> happens.
<jussi> o/
 * genii-around sips
<tsimpson> \o
<jussi> excellent
<jussi> Lets just do this informally, as we dont have quorum, but the others can decide via the ML
<jussi> genii-around: so, lets have it :=)
<genii-around> Well, most of the pertinent information is on the wiki of course.. 1 moment for the URL
<genii-around> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kaulbach
<jussi> genii-around: please give a small summary about you and your involveent in the ubuntu community
<genii-around> Ah, OK. I have been giving assistance primarily in #kubuntu for a number of years now, an op also in several. I am a member of the ubuntu Canada LoCo Team and am promoting Ubuntu locally with release-parties.
<jussi> genii-around: Just one question so far, how many people have you had attending these release parties?
<genii-around> jussi: The first one for Lucid we had about 12-15 people. I missed the Maverick release. Natty it increaqsed somewhat to about 20-25. i am hoping with proper promotion it can get to 50 or more for Oneiric
<jussi> genii-around: awesome. And how large a deployment of xubuntu did you get?
<genii-around> jussi: So far we have deployed Xubuntu on about 40 machines. There are about a thousand which we have available
<genii-around> At the Toronto FreeNet, where i volunteer, we also use Ubuntu on several machines in our office which people can come in and learn on
<jussi> genii-around: do you have any supporters here to cheer for you?
<jussi> Any of the ops who wish to say something positive on genii-around's behalf?
<genii-around> jussi: Not sure, i did nopt specifically ask anyone to attend
 * LjL hugs genii-around and cheers
<genii-around> I just now asked in #kubuntu-offtopic, but on Sunday afternoon who knows :)\
<IdleOne> I am here
<genii-around> :)
<IdleOne> I 100% support genii-around for membership.
<jussi> LjL: any positive/negative comments regarding genii-around's membership application?
<LjL> i don't really know much of genii's ubuntu-related activities though. i can say he's good peoples though :)
<jussi> right. tsimpson, thoughts?
<tsimpson> speaking from personal experience, I'm all for membership for genii-around
<jussi> genii-around: Well, based on what I read on your wiki and here, and what I have seen with my own eyes, Im ready to +1 this.
<eagles0513875> i would like to support genii-around for his ubuntu membership bid :D
<tsimpson> and it's extra special as it's the first IRC membership
<jussi> So with that, lets pass it to the list shall we?
<IdleOne> yay! genii-around is #1
<eagles0513875> \o/ :D
<jussi> tsimpson: would you mind putting something wrt to this on the wiki/TR? I can write the mail to the list.
<eagles0513875> shame the list cant be bypassed genii-around great guy and knows his stuff.
<genii-around> I just asked again in our LoCo channel for supporters, dscassel the head of Ubuntu Canada did already write a good review on my wiki of course
<tsimpson> jussi: I'll just get a ticket and other councillors can vote
<jussi> eagles0513875: we need to have quorum, (3 members saying +1). Hence it going to the ircc list/tracker
<jussi> tsimpson: yeah
<tsimpson> genii-around: you can encourage people to mail the ircc with support until we get a vote together :)
<eagles0513875> ahh ok :D
<jussi> Anyway, I do declare this "meeting" over
<LjL> nice to meet you
<eagles0513875> jussi: mind if i start another discussion / meeting here
<genii-around> I'd like to thank everyone for their consideration in this.
<jussi> eagles0513875: I would expect you to go look at the calendar and see if there is somethign else on
<eagles0513875> my bad
 * IdleOne hopes genii-around won't let membership go to his head and stop making coffee for us (when it is officially approved)
<IdleOne> :-)
<tsimpson> IdleOne: nah, he'll just start serving it in Official Ubuntu Mugs ;)
<eagles0513875> IdleOne: hehe agreed on that
<eagles0513875> jussi: there is an ubuntu gaming meeting O_op
<eagles0513875> in bout 10 min
<IdleOne> We get mugs?
<tsimpson> "virtual" mugs
 * IdleOne emails rt@canonical.com for his mug
<IdleOne> oh :(
<tsimpson> ones that don't actually do well with liquids...
 * eagles0513875 slides IdleOne his big virtual mug
<jussi> could probably now move elsewhere...
<IdleOne> right
 * genii-around makes more coffee, of course
<io> 3
<BluesKaj> hiyas
<BluesKaj> I'd like put in a positive opnion about genii's application for Ubuntu Membership . He's been a tremendous help for everyone needing it, and his patient attitude and encouragement to those wanting to learn linux/(k)ubuntu makes him a very a strong and deserving candidate.
<IdleOne> BluesKaj: the "meeting" is over but you can email the IRCC and give your +1 see /msg ubottu appeals for a email address
<IdleOne> they still haven't taken a final vote on it so I think you should email :)
<BluesKaj> IdleOne, IRCC ..email ?
<IdleOne> IRC Council
<BluesKaj> what's the email address , IdleOne ?
<IdleOne> looking for it
<BluesKaj> ok thanks
<IdleOne> BluesKaj: see PM
<BluesKaj> Iwas away for a few hrs , so otherwise I would have posted this earlier
<io> BluesKaj: the link that ubottu gave shows ircc-appeals@ubuntu.com as the email address
<io> well, it actually shows ircc-appeals@ubottu.com but I'm guessing that is a typing error
<BluesKaj> lo, thanks , IdleOne dug the address up for me.
<BluesKaj> lo I pm'd you with the address
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-18
<xnox> am I an hourly early or just 10 mins early
 * xnox you never know with british summer time
<stgraber> 10mins early
<stgraber> hmm, or maybe 1h10 actually :)
<xnox> Monday June 18th, 2012 19:00 UTC
<stgraber> my phone seems to be wrong
<xnox> 17:50 Monday (GMT) - Time in Coordinated Universal Time
<xnox> stgraber: google calendars suck
 * stgraber assumes the wiki to be authoritative
 * xnox wonders how many people will be here at 18:00 UTC
 * stgraber fixes his calendar
 * xnox goes back to reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
<mdeslaur> it's security team meeting time :)
<xnox> mdeslaur: in that case I will stick around to ask about apparmor python3 code review of mines =)
<mdeslaur> hehe
 * tyhicks is here
<jjohansen> \o
 * xnox 0/
 * sbeattie o/
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 18 18:04:51 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> *shrug*
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I'm working on libreoffice and oo.o this week
<jdstrand> I had a short week last week and got distracted by the apt updates, so not much was done there (though I did manage to get the related raprot update out this morning)
<jdstrand> I also have a short week next week
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I just published libav/ffmpeg updates
<mdeslaur> and have php5 and clamav updates to test
<mdeslaur> which I should be publishing this week
<mdeslaur> after that, I have some merges to do
<mdeslaur> and that's about it for me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
<sbeattie> My focus for the week is the openjdk-6 update + backports
<sbeattie> I'll try to pick up something else in the backgroud.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me (besides trying to shake the remnants of this cold)
<sbeattie> micahg: tag
<micahg> I've got patch piloting, Firefox/Thunderbird 13.0.1, then webkit, if sbeattie gets the openjdk stuff ready for testing, I'll be helping him with the browser plugin testing
<micahg> that's it for me
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I got all of my eCryptfs fixes out last week. I only have a patch review pending for this week.
<tyhicks> I'll get through that today and then will focus on updates
<tyhicks> I also have some merges to do that I'll try to fit in later in the week
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I need to poke at the bugs that were reported on the ml some more. I expect the genprof problems are actually related to audit dropping messages, but need to confirm that.
<jjohansen> I also need to finish dealing with debian Bug#676515 so that they can have a working apparmor in wheezy
<jjohansen> Other than that I am trying to finish up enough of the stacking work to get an alpha1 out before I take off on vacation next week
<xnox> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=676515
<ubottu> Debian bug 676515 in linux-2.6 "linux-2.6: AppArmor totally broken" [Normal,Open]
<jjohansen> yeah, its pretty bad :/
<jjohansen> I think that is it from /me jdstrand back to you
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/alien-arena.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/weechat.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/smsclient.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/slurm-llnl.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xmlsec1.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
 * xnox 0/
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> xnox: go ahead
<xnox> Is anyone going to do a review of python3 port? https://code.launchpad.net/~dmitrij.ledkov/apparmor/py3/+merge/109682
<xnox> is there anything left to do?
<xnox> which version of apparmor will ship with quantal (such that I can prepare packaging changes)
<xnox> unless security team will take that responsibility
<xnox> ..
<jdstrand> xnox: I will take that responsibility (review, packaging, etc)
<xnox> jdstrand: any ETA? =) e.g. quantal milestone?
<jdstrand> xnox: sorry I haven't gotten to the review yet. thank you for the porting-- I was planning on ding it myself :)
<xnox> ACTION jdstrand to review apparmor python3 port
 * xnox or maybe the chair needs to do that
<xnox> ok, thanks. sorted then =)
<xnox> ..
<jdstrand> xnox: soonish? feel free to take it off your list
 * xnox ok
 * sbeattie had also meant to review it as well, sorry
<sbeattie> jdstrand: FYI, last week I punted on triaging the md5crypt cve
<jdstrand> xnox: as you can imagine, we get sidetracked fairly often with security updates, but we'll get to it
<jdstrand> xnox: thanks again for your work on it :)
<xnox> I do know how much great work you lot do. I am subscribed to security announces
<jdstrand> :)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: we don't have it in the archive, but I wasn't sure whether we wanted to mark it as ignored, or have a full not-affected cve entry where we could put references to how we've transitioned away from md5.
<xnox> well done you all =) especially keeping it cool with "I'm in a happy place this week"
<xnox> jdstrand: I have marked my workitem as done, and added one for you on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-python-versions
<jdstrand> xnox: ok. I already had one in another bp, but that's cool
<jdstrand> sbeattie: noted
<jdstrand> any other items to discuss?
<xnox> jdstrand: barry uses that one to track the progress as he is driving python3 migration
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen, xnox: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 18 18:26:26 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-18-18.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-18-18.04.html
<tyhicks> thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thank you
<xnox> thanks a lot
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
 * xnox prepares the bonfire
<xnox> stgraber: ping
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<tumbleweed> o/
<micahg> o/
<stgraber> we need one more
<micahg> bdrung would be the only one available it seems
<micahg> *possibly
<bdrung> o/
<stgraber> yay
 * xnox thought barry was around
<stgraber> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 18 19:03:06 2012 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<tumbleweed> aww, I was hoping to go to sleep :P
<stgraber> xnox: nope, both barry and Laney said they couldn't attend this one
<stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<stgraber> micahg to document the zentyl packageset
<micahg> nope :(
<stgraber> stgraber to review the freeze process with bencer
<stgraber> still need to poke highvoltage about that...
<stgraber> cody-somerville to vote in early meeting poll
<highvoltage> bencer has been really quiet recently
<cody-somerville> Hi
 * highvoltage pokes him now
<stgraber> highvoltage: can you make sure that he's perfectly aware of the freezes before he uploads anything?
<highvoltage> stgraber: I can explain it to him, the understanding part is up to him
<stgraber> highvoltage: ok :)
<stgraber> cody-somerville: did you have a chance to vote in that early meeting poll?
<cody-somerville> I don't believe so. Still not sure how since it seemed like I had to vote on specific dates or something, lol
<stgraber> cody-somerville: ok, I'll keep that action item on the list then
<stgraber> the two others have been done:
<stgraber> stgraber to add jbicha to MOTU (done)
<stgraber> stgraber to remove rodrigo-moya's PPU rights (done)
<bdrung> my schedule will change if we wait long enough
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications  - Juan Negron
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications  - Juan Negron
<stgraber> negronjl: ping
 * negronjl waves
<bdrung> i probably can attend the early meetings in 6 weeks and following
<stgraber> negronjl: can you introduce yourself and your application please?
<negronjl> hello all ...
<negronjl> My name is Juan L. Negron ( wiki.ubuntu.com/JuanNegron/UbuntuContributingDeveloper )
<negronjl> I currently work as a Systems Integration Engineero for Canonical ( currently located in San Francisco, CA, USA )
<negronjl> I mainly hang around the Juju guys and charm related things
<negronjl> I am currently applying for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
 * negronjl not sure what else to add :/
 * xnox bribing with home-baked cookies always works like a charm ;-)
<tumbleweed> let me start the questions
<tumbleweed> negronjl: I have a fairly hard time judging this application, because I don't see much directly-ubuntu-related activity
<negronjl> tumbleweed: fair enough question ... I have been heavily involved in spreading the word on Juju
<bdrung> xnox: we will eat all your cookies, but this will have no effect on the result of your application (unless we get all ill and need to defer the vote) ;)
<negronjl> tumbleweed: that involves going to pretty much every conference, meeting that I can get into to spread the word there.
<tumbleweed> are you intending to do more work on ubuntu itself?
<tumbleweed> I se a bunch of uploads from june and august last year, but nothing since
<negronjl> tumbleweed: also have run a few charm-schools for it.
<tumbleweed> (orchestra-ish stuff, some of which hasn' tbeen touched since, and I don' tknow if that's good or bad)
<negronjl> tumbleweed: the majority of my work these days has been geared towards juju and charms.
<negronjl> tumbleweed: orchestra is no more ... now it's MaaS
<negronjl> tumbleweed: that's why it hasn't been touched.
<tumbleweed> the packages still appear to be published in the archive
<tumbleweed> I wouldn't call that "no more"
<negronjl> tumbleweed:  they are ... they are maintained but, no further development will happen on orchestra
<negronjl> tumbleweed: that development effort has been geared towards Juju now.
 * xnox thought orchestra => juju + MaaS
<negronjl> xnox:  not really
<negronjl> xnox: I am currently working on a demo for Structure/SF where I will deploy MaaS, Juju and such ....
<negronjl> xnox: MaaS is something different from orchestra ... A different approach with a diff. goal
<negronjl> MaaS intends to be a provider ( think Amazon/Aws )
<negronjl> orchestra was something where you could deploy ready-made (puppet) work-loads to it
<negronjl> another big diff. between orchestra and MaaS is that orchestra was puppet based and MaaS is just a provider that Juju can manipulate and consume
<xnox> interesting. thanks.
<negronjl> xnox: sure
<bdrung> negronjl: you stated that you dislike the package review process. why? something else besides it being slow?
<negronjl> bdrung: just slow ...
<negronjl> bdrung: I had to write something I didn't like after all ;)
<bdrung> negronjl: what did you have to write?
<negronjl> bdrung: .... just a joke about having to write what I liked least about Ubuntu
<bdrung> ah. :)
 * xnox "If you tell me everything, you will not get into any type of trouble" - what a typical typical lie parents tell kids during upbringing ;-)
<bdrung> negronjl: what do you mean with package review process. the sponsoring queue?
<negronjl> xnox: I fell for that as a kid many times
<bdrung> xnox: we like to know what can be improved in Ubuntu.
<negronjl> bdrung:  When i started with orchestra, the packaging process and review process took a lot of effort ( It was mostly because I didn't understand it at all ).  ....
<negronjl> bdrung:  As I work on this stuff more,  I see that it's more of a misunderstanding of the process ( that explains why the sponsoring queue is the way it is ) .....
<negronjl> bdrung: and the need for me to clean up my packages ( after all ... one of the things that we all like about Ubuntu is that we can install a package and expect it to just _work_ )
<bdrung> negronjl: was it just a misunderstanding on your side or a lack of/wrong documentation?
<negronjl> bdrung: nowadays ... when I package stuff ( ie: ppa:cloudfoundry/daily ) I tend to look closer at those issues and see them as something that _I_ need to fix as opposed to something that the process needs to work for me.
<negronjl> bdrung: packaging and sponsoring and getting these things into the archive can be a daunting process for someone new.  The help is out there ... I guess it could be put in a more concise manner but, I really would not know where to put it or how to go about making it better.
<negronjl> Once I started to get a better understanding of the process, I realized that it is only as complicated and lengthy as it needs to be
<negronjl> ... I guess I also got used to it so, at this point, I see it as just something that needs to be understood and worked through ...
<negronjl> bdrung:  so the short answer is that it was daunting due to my inexperience with it.
<stgraber> ok, sorry had to multi-task a little and follow some discussions the DMB had on the side
<bdrung> many processes seem to be daunting/complex at the beginning
<stgraber> the DMB doesn't think that ubuntu contributing developer is the right fit for you as it's really meant as a step towards MOTU
<stgraber> instead, we'd highly recommend you apply through the regular Ubuntu Membership process where your contributions to the project through the juju charm schools and similar conferences will be considered
<negronjl> stgraber: ok.  thx for the pointers
<stgraber> negronjl: no problem, and all the best for your ubuntu membership application!
<bdrung> "Ubuntu Contributing Packager" would be probably a better name instead of "Ubuntu Contributing Developer"
<negronjl> thx for your time all
<bdrung> you're welcome
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications - Dmitrijs Ledkovs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications - Dmitrijs Ledkovs
<stgraber> xnox: your turn :)
<inetpro> hmm....
<inetpro> oops... wrong channel
<xnox> Hello everyone =)
<xnox> My name is Dmitrijs. I am Ubuntu Contributing Developer and Debian Developer.
<xnox> I am currently employed by canonical and work fulltime with Foundations Team on the filesystem's tasks.
<xnox> Since my $dayjob is more closely aligned with ubuntu+1, my hobby time contributions have picked up as well. Hence I am applying for Core Developer status.
<xnox> The wiki page for my application is here:
<xnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DmitrijsLedkovs/CoreDevApplication
<xnox> ..
 * tumbleweed hasn't seen any mention of cookies for +1s yet
<bdrung> we first need to find a protocol to transport cookies over IP without loosing the taste ;)
 * xnox prepared a ratatouille recipe for Laney & Barry which were making a fire for me at the last meeting. But they bailed. There was no time for cookies, sorry.
 * xnox was considering airtight, vacuum containers, but was afraid of moisture turning into ice during air transportation. So I was thinking to make dehydrated cookies, but they are not as nice as soft baked once.
<stgraber> So, let's say we are the 27th of June and you want to fix a bug in python-gevent, can you upload it to the archive at that point?
 * xnox goes to check the calendar, to see what 27th of june is
<xnox> so there are no milestones for stable releases in the interlock.
<xnox> only alpha 2 freeze for quantal.
<xnox> it is seeded on the edubuntu dvd image
<micahg> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt comes to mind as a basis for transporting cookies over IP
<xnox> i would upload to -proposed, or better get in touch with release team to see if the bugfix is required for a respin
<xnox> assuming that the seeding has not changed by the time we get into 27th of june
 * xnox goes to check MIRs
<stgraber> good answer and well detailed answer :)
<stgraber> are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<xnox> yes, on RSS, NNTP & email
<tumbleweed> exotic
 * xnox doesn't like missing *-announce stuff regardless what I happen to check first
<tumbleweed> xnox: so, how do we make RAID/LUKS/LVM rock in ubuntu?
 * xnox doesn't see any MIRs for python-gevent, and I shouldn't miss any new new MIR since I am subscribed to ubuntu-archive m-l for component missmatch notifications
<xnox> tumbleweed: to make RAID/LUKS/LVM rock this needs implemented: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-software-raid
<xnox> as well as all dependencies
<xnox> and all bugs
<xnox> and of course https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-q-ubiquity-lvm-luks
<xnox> and all bugs in ubiquity/installer related to that
 * tumbleweed missed that session
<xnox> tumbleweed: which one? there was no session for ubiquity-lvm-luks
<xnox> it was discussed to death for many cycles in a row =)
<xnox> there were hallway discussions about it at the UDS-Q
 * tumbleweed seems to recall some scheduled related sessions at UDS-Q, but nm
<bdrung> xnox: is there a nice gui to create luks encrypted partitions?
<xnox> bdrung: the design work is in progress.
 * xnox hunts some links
<xnox> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bZ4yQIVgGaUGSYu3qiUHnQt3ieBZoqunP_DcleHCr3I/edit#heading=h.v8wi3omt1z0
<bdrung> i needed to create the partition on the gui to then mount it with typing the password into the gui
<xnox> right now you can use gnome-disks which is on the live cd to create LUKS encrypted volume
<xnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubiquity/AdvancedPartitioningSchemes#Ubiquity_Mockups
<xnox> is my "functional" mockups which will be enabled with `ubiquity --danger-do-not-use`
<xnox> or some other more sensible command line flag
<xnox> gnome-disks is fully gui. And encrypted usb drives are awesome. You plug it in, and a nice popup appears to unlock it.
<stgraber> alright, we have 5 minutes left to the meeting, so let's vote
<stgraber> #vote Core Dev Application - xnox
<meetingology> Please vote on: Core Dev Application - xnox
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<tumbleweed> +1 [[ it's a faily early core-dev application, but warranted ]]
<meetingology> +1 [[ it's a faily early core-dev application, but warranted ]] received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cody-somerville> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cody-somerville
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Core Dev Application - xnox
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> xnox: congrats!
 * xnox \0/
<stgraber> added to the team
<tumbleweed> xnox: congrats. now you can help bring down the sponsorship backlog :P
 * xnox goes to break^W make ubuntu better ;)
<xnox> sure, I can now do sponsorship
<stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Select a chair for the next meeting
 * xnox votes barry
<stgraber> can't remember, do we also do alphabetical order of IRC nicks like the TB?
<stgraber> if so, it should be tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> IIRC, we do alphabetical on full names
<bdrung> alphabetical on first name
<tumbleweed> I was the last chair
<stgraber> ok, that's barry then
<stgraber> #action barry to chair the next DMB meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: barry to chair the next DMB meeting
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 18 20:01:06 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-18-19.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-18-19.03.html
<xnox> thank you everyone
<stgraber> almost on time :)
<bdrung> we should go reverse after barry ;)
<stgraber> bdrung: yeah right :)
<bdrung> xnox: how is the gui of gnome-disks named? gnome-disks: command not found
<xnox> bdrung: in unity dash search for 'disks'
<xnox> in precise i think it plymptest thing
<xnox> let me find
<stgraber> palimpsest
<xnox> stgraber: yeah that
 * xnox can't understand wtf palimpsest suppose to mean
 * xnox does a little dance
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-19
<jamespage> o/
<arosales> hello
<Daviey> o/
<jimbaker> hi
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 19 16:00:55 2012 UTC.  The chair is Daviey. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<utlemming> o/
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> arosales to correct "pieces" on ubuntu server blog
<Daviey>  -- done by rbasak, super!
<adam_g> o/
 * rbasak apologises for the poor kerning
<arosales> I think rbasak also filed a ticket to get the blogged moved, correct rbasak ?
<rbasak> Yes. That's waiting on IS atm
<arosales> rbasak: cool thanks
<zul> helo
<Daviey> arosales to follow up with rbask on finding the correct home for the Ubuntu Server blog.
<arosales> Daviey: waiting on an IS ticket rbasak submitted
<Daviey> Yep, i chimed in there aswell. So it's blocked with them.. I think it's making adequate progress to remove from agenda
<Daviey> thanks rbasak
<Daviey> jamespage, utlemming, and smb to discuss image bloat, in reference to discussion around dropping -virtual kernel; re bug 1009553
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009553 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu Quantal) "jeos install oversized" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009553
<Daviey>  -- will cover in kernel section
<Daviey> jamespage to follow up with hallyn on servercloud-q-server-iso-tests-review
<jamespage> c/f
<Daviey> jamespage: c/f?
<jamespage> carry forwards please
<Daviey> oh, ok
<Daviey> utlemming to follow up with rbasak on getting armhf images using highbank
<utlemming> Daviey: still a todo
<Daviey> ok, this week?
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Quantal Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Quantal Development
<Daviey> Release Bugs - http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> bug 974584 Semaphores cannot be created in lxc container
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 974584 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Quantal) "Semaphores cannot be created in lxc container" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/974584
<Daviey> hallyn: one for you?
<hallyn> yes.  i did NOT follow up last week.
<hallyn> need to beg someone to analyze/commit my fix
<Daviey> hallyn: upstream or distro?
<smoser> o/
<hallyn> debian and ubuntu
<Daviey> hallyn: ok, lets see what we can progress out of meeting
<Daviey> thanks
<Daviey> bug 920197 zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 920197 in python-webob (Ubuntu Quantal) "[SRU] webob last stable version 1.1.1 response header bug" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/920197
<zul> Daviey: in progress
<Daviey> zul: eta?
<zul> Daviey: this week
<Daviey> roaksoax: bug 1001846 .. he is afk..  will follow up post-meeting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1001846 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "cobbler fails to install with error code 1" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1001846
<Daviey> bug 1008537 , i disucssed with seb (Desktop), as it might e their concern.. Impacting Firefox aswell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008537 in sphinx (Ubuntu) "[FTBFS] Segmentation fault during tests" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1008537
<Daviey> bug 1009294 smoser / utlemming ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009294 in Ubuntu Precise "Grub update breaks automated dist-upgrade scripts on AMI images" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009294
<Daviey> jamespage: bug 1009579 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009579 in tomcat7 (Ubuntu) "[MIR] tomcat7 (replaces tomcat6)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009579
<jamespage> Pending final ack from SRU team - I'll then make the seed changes required....
<jamespage> and transition everything that needs to be (~10 packages)
<Daviey> jamespage: Don't you need to unassign yourself, and Mark it back to NEW?
<Daviey> (i don't think they will look a it with the current status)
<Daviey> bug 993291 , jamespage ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 993291 in nis (Ubuntu Quantal) "[SRU] package nis 3.17-32ubuntu1.2 failed to install/upgrade: invoke-rc.d: unknown initscript, /etc/init.d/nis not found." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/993291
<jamespage> when I get time...
<jamespage> still working on a good test case ATM
<Daviey> test cases rock my world.
<Daviey> super
<Daviey> bug 1009553 , smb ?
<Daviey> bug 1013860 , zul ()[Dblocking MIR?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009553 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu Quantal) "jeos install oversized" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009553
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013860 in python-glanceclient (Ubuntu) "should use Architecture: all" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013860
 * smb looks innocent 
<Daviey> hallyn: one for you? bug 1014005 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1014005 in ipxe (Ubuntu) "Please generate and include ipxe.dsk to the ipxe binary package" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1014005
<smb> Its fix realesed...
<Daviey> smoser: i see you as assingee	?
<Daviey> ah!
<Daviey> smb, what is the current size, happen to know?
<zul> Daviey: glanceclient will fixed in the next snapshot
<smoser> wait. which am i assigee of?
<smb> Daviey, No, not sure, has someone created a new image pulling only linux-virtual
<zul> wait we still do jeos?
<Daviey> smoser: was asking you about 1009294 .. you are not the assignee, but logical peson :)
<Daviey> zul: nah, it's a keen abbreviation that someone has used
<smoser> ah. Daviey ok. so yeah, that is fix-committed meaning dailies have been released with the fix in them.
<smoser> (hte expected fix).
<smoser> i can verify that the fix fixes quantal
<smoser> and then we hvae to get utlemming to update hte precise images and release new images
<hallyn> Daviey: i care more about kvm-ipxe, but sure.  honoring wishlist priority
<Daviey> cool
<smoser> which i thought was on his list.
<utlemming> the images are tested and queued up
<Daviey> bug 997782 .. needs an assignee
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 997782 in phpbb3 (Ubuntu) "Bug in dbapps-lib when configuring mysql on a remote machine" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/997782
<utlemming> I just have to put the changelog notice out
<zul> Daviey: heh pppphppth
<utlemming> and since http://changelogs.ubuntu.com is _still_ out, that is busy work
<Daviey> hallyn: yeah, i set it to wishlist.. it seem to be a quickish fix we could slip into the next time it's touched
<Daviey> u	urgh
<jamespage> Daviey, I'll pickup bug 997782 - promised gnuoy I would
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 997782 in phpbb3 (Ubuntu) "Bug in dbapps-lib when configuring mysql on a remote machine" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/997782
 * jamespage assigns himself...
<Daviey> jamespage: \o/
<Daviey> That is it for current tracked issues.. Are there more that should be tracked?
<Daviey> ok! great, so we are almost ready to release.
<Daviey> Okay.. Blueprints!
<Daviey> ANyone have any questions about WI/process?
<arosales> the trend line was reset so it looks better now, thanks to skaet_
<arosales> Anyone have a large amount of work items that _aren't_ documented?
<Daviey> o/
 * Daviey notes that -hardening is covering too much scope atm
<Daviey> That topic needs to be reduced.
<arosales> Daviey: ok, I"ll work with you on that off-line
<arosales> There are some ARM blueprints that may get some additional work items . .
<Daviey> I don't think we need to cover every topic right now, i think there is too much.  But generally, anyone have any red flags to raise?
<zul> arosales: i usually add when to do openstack snapshots to the bluepritn but didnt this time because i couldnt keep it up to date last cycle
<adam_g> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-openstack-charms  i haven't seen any WIs come out of this one. is that intentional or did i drop the ball on some BP paperwork ?
<arosales> zul: ok, and probably encapsulated in other work items too
<zul> arosales: right
<Daviey> adam_g: it was missing the series
<Daviey> adam_g: should show next refresh, good catch
<adam_g> Daviey: ah! okay, thanks
<arosales> adam_g: do we know how the charms will work with cloud archive?
<arosales> openstack juju charms that is.
<Daviey> I'm going to move on, any other concerns.. please raise asap
<arosales> perhaps just deploying the latest which should track with the current release?
<adam_g> arosales: that hasn't really been discussed to much, but it should be pretty forwarded provided we get determine some way of managing them in the charm store
<adam_g> arosales: ping me later and we can chat about it
<arosales> adam_g: ok, thanks
<Daviey> [TOPIC] 12.04.1 Development (jamespage & smoser)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: 12.04.1 Development (jamespage & smoser)
<jamespage> http://people.canonical.com/~jamespage/server-sru/precise-sru.html
 * smoser missed last weeks meeting
<jamespage> your turn next week smoser :-)
<jamespage> SRU activity ticking along nicely
<Daviey> jamespage: how does the point release currently taste?
<zul> i think we are still stuck on nova and dnsmasq
<jamespage> good potential
<Daviey> Goood progress?  Issues to raise?  Bottlenecks?
<jamespage> but some work still to go
<zul> dnsmasq and nova :)
<jamespage> quite a few SRU's still need verification - any volunteers much appreciated - see the report
<jamespage> like zul says ^^
<jamespage> Daviey: also we really need to start tracking the 12.04.1 delivery for maas as well
<Daviey> maas also needs an SRU
<jamespage> snap
<Daviey> hah
<jamespage> so if we can get the bugs targetted and assigned that would be great
<adam_g> what is the status of the stable updates to the openstack components? i see they are still in precise-proposed. are we required to verify all bugs fixed or ?
<Daviey> okay., we probably need to start increasing the tracking for .1
<Daviey> We need to follow up with the SRU team to try to get nova nto -proposed *today*
<zul> adam_g: we are still waiting for nova
<adam_g> zul: waiting for exactly?
<Daviey> Then we need to really work on -verification.
<Daviey> Okay... we have an actin.. super
<Daviey> moving on?
<zul> Daviey/adam_g: when its all ready ill blog about it and send an email to -server and openstack about it
<adam_g> Daviey: actually can we get clarity on the openstack stuff? im still confused
<adam_g> zul: telling/asking what? for verification of whats in proposed or an announcement that its been released?
<zul> adam_g: both
<zul> adam_g: meaning that its available for testing and can you please help test
<adam_g> zul: so, we're going to need to go through the standard SRU process for each bug in the changelog, essentially?
<adam_g> if so, we need to start compiling test cases now otherwise they're just going to rot in proposed like the first oneiric update
<Daviey> ugh... internet problems hjere
<Daviey> somewhat, adam	
<zul> adam_g: i think so, the ones we can test
<adam_g> okay, i still have no idea :) we can discuss later.
<Daviey> adam_g: We need to consider the regression potential for each bug, so yes.
<Daviey> As we've had input into most of the stable changes, that shouldn't be too much of a challenge
<Daviey> just a slight pain
<Daviey> We also need to have further discussions with the SRU team to make sure they are satisfied
<zul> adam_g: indeed :)
<Daviey> I suggest that in about 1 hr, we try to grab slangasek.
<adam_g> +1
<jamespage> OK - I think that covers most things for this slot
<smoser> Daviey, moving on?
<Daviey> moving on..
<Daviey> ugh, sorry.. My net keeps dieing
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> Velocity next week. jcastro and hazmat in attendance there with a charm school.
<Daviey> Ooo
<Daviey> okay..
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> How is the QA world?
<jamespage> Not sure where hggdh is but I would encourage people to sign up to the ubuntu-utah-devel ML
<jamespage> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-utah-devel
 * hggdh is in
<jamespage> utah is the new automated testing platform QA have been working on
<jamespage> all server tests will be transitioned soon I understand - maybe hggdh can tell us when?
<Daviey> jamespage: that is worth raising! Thanks.
<hggdh> I do stress jamespage's comment -- please do sign up, and suggest/complain as needed
<hggdh> yes, all tests will be migrated to UTAH
<Daviey> There is also some planned Openstack CI work, but we should discuss that in a breakout.
<Daviey> hggdh: been following DEP-8 disucssions?
<Daviey> (or anyone else?)
<hggdh> Daviey: I have not, been quite busy, unfortunately
<Daviey> hggdh: it's something pitti has been seemingly driving in Debian.. But we've not had discussions or involvement with it.
<Daviey> I think it will impact us soonly (or at least SHOULD).. so generally, we probably need to join that disucssion
<hggdh> Daviey: I will ping pitti on that tomorrow (already gone for the day)
<Daviey> moving on?
<Daviey> hggdh: Thanks!
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Still trying not to go mental while looking for some scheduler bug. Meanwhile did a merge for Xen in Quantal which needs to get some review. (maybe I should not have told zul there are minor faults hidden for him to find... ;) ) Otherwise: questions?
<smb> ..
<zul> ill have a look at it tomorrow
<Daviey> smoser: is there anything we can unblock wyou with?
<Daviey> I understood you had some sponsorship issues?
<smoser> smoser? or smb?
 * smb wonders the same
<smb> Daviey, Not really blocked on this
<Daviey> sorry, i'm trying to type quickly and relying on tab complete as i seem to be suffering some network issue
<Daviey> or, i'll blame the Quantal kernel.
<Daviey> :)
<Daviey> smb: Okay, i'm sorry to rush through this.. But yes, thanks.. Things currently seem good aiui.
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing to report. Work on ARM server continues. Any questions for me?
<Daviey> rbasak: How is 12.04.1 and 12.10 images currently looking?
<Daviey> I didn't really dig into A1 images.
<rbasak> Setting aside MAAS for a moment, 12.10 is essentially ready.
<Daviey> (i imagine jamespage and smoser haven't dug specifically into arm issues for the point release.)
<Daviey> rbasak: wow, don't say tat too loudly.
<rbasak> Well all the ARM server specific parts, anyway
<Daviey> right
<Daviey> Any arm questions?
<rbasak> NCommander is working on the highbank enablement in precise-updates. AIUI, that's about a week away.
<Daviey> super!
<rbasak> MAAS is the important part though, and work on that continues.
 * jamespage knows about that ^^
<Daviey> yep, fully aware of that little conundrum :)
<Daviey> okay..
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Welcome jimbaker to Server team (arosales).
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Welcome jimbaker to Server team (arosales).
<arosales> Welcome jimbaker to the server team! We'll be putting jimbaker's juju, python, and java skills for Ubuntu Server :-)
<rbasak> Welcome jimbaker!
<Daviey> jimbaker: you are focusing on?
<Daviey> ok..
<Daviey> welcome JIM!
<arosales> Perhaps away atm, We'll definately use his phython and java skill in addition to his juju skills.
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
 * arosales apologizes for not sending meeting minutes to the blog or email. 
<arosales> I got added to the blog, so that should be corrected going forwared.
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> okay, lets wrap up..
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> same time, same place
<Daviey> 26th June
<arosales> thanks Daviey for chairing
<Daviey> Thanks all for attending, and apologies for the sporadic nature.. it's been painful.
<Daviey> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 19 16:59:37 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-19-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-19-16.00.html
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 19 17:00:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<henrix> o/
<smb> \o
<arges> \o/
<apw> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
<sconklin__> o/
<bjf> o/
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<cking> o/
<ppisati> Q/omap4: nothing new this week.
<ppisati> Q/omap3: i'm tracking down a fs corruption problem in 3.5rcX, a hang during boot related to voltage scaling and did some more debugging on kexec/usb.
<herton> o/
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<rtg> o/
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/canonical-kernel-distro-team-quantal-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 4 work item   ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 3 work items  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || cking       || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 3 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || cooloney    || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || jjohansen   || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || jk-         || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee    || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || smb         || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner    || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 1 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || kernel-team || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-2 work
<ogasawara> items.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have recently rebased the Quantal kernel to the latest v3.5-rc3
<ogasawara> upstream kernel and have also uploaded.  It's currently building in the
<ogasawara> archive but should be available for testing in the near future.  We
<ogasawara> welcome any feedback.  This will also get uploaded to the q-lts-backport
<ogasawara> [1] PPA to help facilitate testing of the 12.10 kernel in 12.04.  We
<ogasawara> welcome any early adopters to please install, test, and let us know your
<ogasawara> feedback there as well.
<ogasawara> [1] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/q-lts-backport
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Jun 28 - Alpha 2 (~1 weeks)
<ogasawara>   * Note there is some interesting discussions happening on the
<ogasawara>     ubuntu-devel mailing list regarding completely dropping the Alpha's
<ogasawara>     and Beta's and moving to a 2 week release cadence
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin__> == 2012-06-19 (weekly) ==
<sconklin__> Currently we have 89 CVEs on our radar, with one CVE retired this week.
<sconklin__> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin__> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin__> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<sconklin__> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin__> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin__> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (June  05):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy    - 2.6.24-31.102 - Verified, ready for testing; 2 CVEs
<bjf>  * Lucid    - 2.6.32-41.91  - Verified, ready for testing; 2 CVEs
<bjf>  * Natty    - 2.6.38-15.61  - Verified, ready for testing; 3 CVEs
<bjf>  * Oneiric  - 3.0.0-22.36   - Verified, ready for testing; 1 upstream stable release (approx. 60 commits), 1 CVE
<bjf>  * Precise  - 3.2.0-26.41   - In verification; 1 upstream stable release (approx. 137 commits)
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf>  
<bjf> The week of Sept. 6 is the week the last Natty kernel will be
<bjf> built.
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> going once
<jsalisbury> going twice
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 19 17:06:20 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-19-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-19-17.00.html
<fefa> hi everyone
<bkerensa> so many Oregonians just joined ;)
<bkerensa> hi bryceh :P
<c_smith> hello.
<tgm4883> o/
<c_smith> hello, everyone in Oregon.
<shirgall> bkerensa: I'm always here, and I'm a Washingtonion, technically :)
 * c_smith is from Oregon, and raises hand
<c_smith> o/
<bdmurray> oh, right I'm from Washington too
<bkerensa> shirgall: ahh you have attended events ;)
<czajkowski> aloha
<greg-g> hi all!
<bkerensa> :P
<j_white1> I am from Oregon too. Monmouth here
<trinikrono> o/
<simosx> Hello everyone from Greece!
<itnet7> cool bkerensa !
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: you chairing :)
<fefa> hello here from Chile
<c_smith> Monmouth? I lived there. almost nothing to do there, so one needs to be creative there.
<PabloRubianes> hello from Uruguay
<stavrosLinux> hello all
 * c_smith currently hails from Salem.
 * devxdev is from Tigard OR
<j_white1> c_smith I am going to school
<c_smith> j_white1, that would make sense.
<tgm4883> j_white1, WOU?
<j_white1> ^ yes WOU. CS major.
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 19 20:05:08 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bkerensa> Portlandia here :)
<NTR> As do I tgm4883
<bkerensa> nathwill: where u from? :P
<czajkowski> aloha and welcome to the Loco council meeting
<czajkowski> we will be going through the teams in the order on the wiki page
<konnn> Hello from Greece,too.
<czajkowski> sit back and enjoy :)
<fkol_k4> Hello frem Greek team
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
 * c_smith kicks back with music going through his headset
<c7p> me too from Greek team
<clepto95> me too :)
<itnet7> c_smith: ;-)
<NikTh> Hello from Greek team
<czajkowski> #topic Quebec Re approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Quebec Re approval
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuebecTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
 * tgm4883 is 37.5% greek, but lives in oregon
<greg-g> great looking reapproval app
<czajkowski> tgm4883: hiya, we're doing another team first :)
<czajkowski> komputes: ping
<TRAVISg_> Just got here
<tgm4883> czajkowski, ah, I saw all the greek team people pipe up
<SergioMeneses> hello QuecbecTeam!
<czajkowski> anyone here from Quebec ?
<toumbo> Hello from me too
<czajkowski> no :/
<czajkowski> ok
 * highvoltage 
<greg-g> sad
<SergioMeneses> nobody here
<highvoltage> (oh sorry not me)
<TRAVISg_> sorry not from Quebec and spoke out of turn now sitting down quitely and waiting my turn
<czajkowski> highvoltage: I did wonder
<highvoltage> (I'm in quebec but didn't read the context)
<czajkowski> #topic Greek Loco re approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Greek Loco re approval
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreekTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<czajkowski> Geochr: ping
<greg-g>  this is actually the app I was referring to when I said it looks good, GreekTeam :)
<Geochr> Hello from Greece !
<SergioMeneses> Hello Ubuntu Greek Team!
<czajkowski> welcome
<czajkowski> thanks for coming folks
<clepto95> Hello :)
<SergioMeneses> yes, It is an awesome work! everything is there!
<czajkowski> also fantastic application!
<stavrosLinux> Hello !
<fkol_k4> Glad to be here!
<Geochr> thanks
<czajkowski> amazing work and pictures make me happy!
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, me too
<itnet7> Really good activity!!
<greg-g> definitely, pictures++
<czajkowski> so Geochr care to tell us about your loco and how you do things please
<Geochr> As an Ubuntu community, we started in 2005. We were first approved in 2008, reapproved in 2010, and hopefully for 2012.
<Geochr> One of our core aims is to provide support for users in the Greek language. We achieved this with the forum (currently over 9500 members).
<greg-g> wow
<Geochr> Whenever we promote Ubuntu, we simply recommend new users to visit the forum for user support.
<SergioMeneses> 9500!!!
<Geochr> We aim to help our members to learn more about Ubuntu and enable them to bring more users to Ubuntu.
<Geochr> We worked as a team and completed the localisation of Ubuntu 12.04 to Greek.
<Geochr> e have two translation teams in aim to translate Ubuntu. The current release is fully translated in Greek language.
<Geochr> We*
<czajkowski> yay
<Geochr> Another activity of our community is the Ubuntistas magazine. The whole magazine is fully created by our members (editorial, graphics etc). We have 14 issues since the first isue in November 2008
<czajkowski> Geochr: so how has the team grown, since you were approved last?  has the team had to over come any issues
<Geochr> Yes, we are do our best to improve the team
<Geochr> and to spread the Ubuntu
<komputes> hi czajkowski
<czajkowski> komputes: we're in the middle of another team application now will try and circle back to you ok
<komputes> ok
<czajkowski> Geochr: is there something we the loco council can help with ?
<SergioMeneses> the ubuntu magazine is a wonderful idea!... and congratulations Geochr and ubuntu Greek
<SergioMeneses> excelente application
<SergioMeneses> excellent
<Geochr> Any advise from the  loco council is welecome
<czajkowski> itnet7: SergioMeneses greg-g any other comments
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, no
<itnet7> Not really, I think we're ready to vote
<greg-g> not from me,I love the application, well done GreekTeam!
<czajkowski> #voters SergioMeneses itnet7 czajkowski greg-g
<meetingology> Current voters: SergioMeneses czajkowski greg-g itnet7
<Geochr> the congratulations are for the whole team nad not personal
<czajkowski> #votesrequired 3
<meetingology> votes now need 3 to be passed
<itnet7> +1
<greg-g> +1
<SergioMeneses> +1
<czajkowski> patience!
<itnet7> lol
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the re approval of the Greek LoCo
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the re approval of the Greek LoCo
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +1 amazing application keep up the great work
<meetingology> +1 amazing application keep up the great work received from czajkowski
<Geochr> thanks...
<itnet7> +1 definitely
<meetingology> +1 definitely received from itnet7
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<SergioMeneses> +1 excellent!
<meetingology> +1 excellent! received from SergioMeneses
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the re approval of the Greek LoCo
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<greg-g> :)
<greg-g> well done team!
<Geochr> thanks loco council
<clepto95> thank you!
<Geochr> see you 2014 !
<SergioMeneses> congratulations
<czajkowski> #action SergioMeneses update lauchpad with updated expirary date
<meetingology> ACTION: SergioMeneses update lauchpad with updated expirary date
<czajkowski> :)
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, ok
<czajkowski> #topic Oregon Approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Oregon Approval
<itnet7> Good Job Greece!!
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OregonTeam/ApprovalApplication
<the_eye_> thanks
<greg-g> hello there Oregon :)
<devxdev> Hiya!
<bryceh> o/
<tgm4883> Quack
<SergioMeneses> Hello Ubuntu Oregon Team!
<bkerensa> Quack
<TRAVISg_> QUACK!
<bdmurray> Hi
<cweber10> Quack
<czajkowski> nathwill: hi there
<c_smith> quack
<j_white1> Quack
<jvlb> Quack!
<nathwill> hi all
<MarkDude> Quack
<czajkowski> nathwill: hiya care to tell us about the team ?
<trinikrono> congrats to greek team!
<slangasek> um... moo
 * shirgall also quacks
 * sbeattie waves
<tgm4883> lol
<bkerensa> tgm4883 will be stepping in for nathwill
<konnn> thanks from greece
<nathwill> czajkowski, actually, tgm4833 is gonna be taking over for the meeting, i've got some work stuff blowing up that is making me only intermittently available
<czajkowski> tgm4883: ok hi there
<greg-g> I wouldn't have thought I'd see so much quacking in a LC meeting
<itnet7> greg-g: ;-)
<tgm4883> Although unofficially a team, we've been contributing to Ubuntu in different capacities for quite a while now
<bryceh> greg-g, if it walks like a duck...
<tgm4883> Be it release parties, ubuntu hours, bug squashing parties, etc
<Brian_H> delayed quack!
<kees> quack quack
<SergioMeneses> what is quack? or means
<tgm4883> bkerensa, has really done quite a lot of work in getting us organized and getting us out into the community
<bkerensa> quack
<komputes> quack?
<czajkowski> ok less quacking and more answering :)
<MarkDude> +1
<czajkowski> please
<bkerensa> Quack = Duck noise... Oregon state animal :P
<czajkowski> it doesnt translate well
<c_smith> it's an oregon joke
<c_smith> czajkowski, it's an Oregon joke.
<greg-g> just a point of clarification, there is a important difference between an official team and an approved team. Official isn't a defined word in the LoCo world, so, any team that is working towards approval is effectively the official team of that area
<tgm4883> czajkowski, The Oregon team has the largest amount of bug fixes of any loco in North America
<czajkowski> greg-g: +1
<SergioMeneses> totally agree
<tgm4883> we try to have lots of fixes in  the repository each cycle
<tgm4883> and our team did much of the multi-arch transitioning of libraries for 12.04
<MarkDude> http://oregonsportsreport.com/or_files/ducks.gif <<<< the Duck in question :)
<czajkowski> tgm4883: great, how do you manage all of this as I see from launchpad you have 45 members, but yet ye say ye have over 1K followers on social sites, do you think at some point you will get people in these areas to get involved?
<itnet7> tgm4883: I enjoyed reading about your events and outreach
<tgm4883> czajkowski, While we have 45 members that considered themselves part of our team and have signed up on that web-page, we have a larger community that comes to these events that we hold that are not part of our team
<czajkowski> tgm4883: cool
<czajkowski> thats good to know
<tgm4883> czajkowski, I think the primary reason most people don't join that page is the requirement for a LP account
<tgm4883> we encourage, but never force
<nathwill> we've also got some pretty active folks in the juju charm-writing community
<itnet7> very good work on all of the fixes, and development that you're team is doing as well!
<tgm4883> czajkowski, I've been with the team since I started contributing to Ubuntu (back in 2007 when there were 3 of us) and I can absolutely say that I am proud of the accomplishments this team has made
<czajkowski> nods
<bkerensa> Yep... myself, nathwill and kees all have charms in the charm store and kees and I have both won awards on two occasions.. We regularly use Kees sbuild charm to do package building at BSP's and Bug Jams
<czajkowski> greg-g: SergioMeneses itnet7 any other questions
<itnet7> tgm4883: what is one of your team biggest accomplishments that you're proud of??
<SergioMeneses> nathwill, bkerensa Can you tell us something about your future goals?
<kees> I've been hoping to encourage other locos to use the sbuild charm. it's very handy.
<tgm4883> Our team has been blessed by some of the members being so good at what they do and able to teach the rest of us (kees, slangasek, bdmurray, and others)
<greg-g> just another point of clarification, and this isn't meant to be a jab/criticism, work done by Canonical employees during their work time isn't normally looked at for either personal Ubuntu Membership nor LoCo approval (pending special circumstance) so the library transition (which I assume was done by the great work of the Canonical Oregon people) doesn't really count for this application.
<bkerensa> SergioMeneses: My biggest goal or hope is that we can continue to grow our base of contributors while educating our existing base and teaching them how to do more packaging and bug fixes
<greg-g> (sorry to be the perpetual point clarifier)
<nathwill> czajkowski, we're working on expanding Ubuntu Hours as a low-key, low-pressure way for people to get involved with the community
<greg-g> (also, if I misunderstood/assumed incorrectly, let me know)
<nathwill> we'd also like to expand to other areas in Oregon
<kees> fwiw, I don't work for Canonical.
<bkerensa> greg-g: Canonical employees are not required to come to loco events or contribute and do so voluntarily :) we have a number who do participate and plenty who do not
<nathwill> i've got some contacts down in Medford who i'm working on getting together so they can coordinate team events in the southern piece of the state
<bdmurray> greg-g: and some of the transitioning work was done at a weekend event
<tgm4883> itnet7, Personally I think our biggest accomplishment is actually being able to successfully have the events we have had. Unlike much of the east coast, oregon is not so densely populated so getting the numbers of people we have seen at the events is quite outstanding
<bkerensa> ^
<greg-g> bkerensa: right, that is great, and that is separate/othoganal to what I was referring to
<greg-g> bdmurray: oh, that's cool!
<bkerensa> also kees for the record is not a Canonical employee ;)
<greg-g> kees: I guess I missed that :)
<c_smith> May I throw something in?
<SergioMeneses> bkerensa, great!
<itnet7> cool tgm4883, Thanks! Sure c_smith
<slangasek> greg-g: what's referred to for the multiarch library transitions was a weekend event
<greg-g> slangasek: gotcha, then I assumed wrong in the specific case here.
<greg-g> (the general point still stands ;) )
<c_smith> I and a few other folks here in Salem host an Ubuntu Hour weekly, slowly but surely more people are attending.
<greg-g> my apologies
<slangasek> greg-g: yep, understood :)
<itnet7> c_smith: that's really great!!
<tgm4883> slangasek, thanks for clearing that up for me :)
<SergioMeneses> If you work like a LoCo I don't see problem about the Canonical employees
<czajkowski> right I'm keen to keep this moving we have more teams to get to today, any other comments / questions folks
<greg-g> yep, go ahead from me :)
<greg-g> I'm done clarifying points ;)
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the approval on the Oregon Loco
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the approval on the Oregon Loco
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bryceh> +1
<greg-g> :)
<czajkowski> and thats why I do the named voters
<itnet7> :-)
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<SergioMeneses> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from SergioMeneses
<itnet7> +1 Great Job!
<meetingology> +1 Great Job! received from itnet7
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the approval on the Oregon Loco
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<czajkowski> #action SergioMeneses update approved locoteams on launchpad and add Oregon loco
<meetingology> ACTION: SergioMeneses update approved locoteams on launchpad and add Oregon loco
<itnet7> Congratulations, Good Job Oregon!!!
<czajkowski> welcome oregon loco
<nathwill> whooo!!!!! ty council-members :)
<kamusin> congrats Oregon
<SergioMeneses> Ubuntu Oregon congratulations... and I like the "quack" thing xD
<c_smith> lol
<bkerensa> Congrats guys you did great work!
<itnet7> ditto ;-)
<bkerensa> and gals even :)
<c_smith> that's one who likes the joke.
<czajkowski> #topic Chile LoCo Re approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Chile LoCo Re approval
<MarkDude> Yay
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChileanTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<fefa_> hi i'm fefa from chilean team
<czajkowski> fefa_: hey there
<czajkowski> cristianvirtual: ping
<fefa_> We're here for our second  re approvalthis is the link to our wiki page with the latest  activitiesand we've been involved in a lot of free software events  in our Countryalways participating with our booth and giving talks  about Ubuntu
<SergioMeneses> hello Ubuntu Chilean Team!
<cristianvirtual> hello
<c3959_> hello!
<arvaro> hola hola - hello
<czajkowski> wow impressive application!
<kamusin> hey!
<fefa_> everybody say hi !!
<pedro_> and the link is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChileanTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<czajkowski> cristianvirtual: hey so how are things in the team?
<itnet7> Very nice!
<fefa_> hi
<cristianvirtual> czajkowski: greats! well, sorry im at work now, fefa is representing us for today :( sorry
<pedro_> sadly cristianvirtual (i think) is in a meeting right now
<pedro_> most of us are currently working
<pedro_> ~4 pm here in Chile
<czajkowski> no problem
<czajkowski> anyone cna jump in
<czajkowski> how are the team doing
<fefa_> so any question here i am
<pedro_> things are going great in our LoCo team
 * greg-g is "working" too
<czajkowski> last time you guys were here it was post the earthquake and yet you guys were still active
<pedro_> this is the moment of the year were we have a lot of Free software related events
<czajkowski> I can see from the wiki page no change there
<greg-g> yeah, conferene season.
<pedro_> it was a bit slow the past year, cause of the reconstruction and all that
<czajkowski> nods
 * greg-g nos
<pedro_> but we keep rolling
<czajkowski> but you guys are still doing things so kudos to you al
<pedro_> so yeah things are going great this year for us as a team
<czajkowski> what issues if any have ye overcome?
<pedro_> mostly related to our Geo , Chile is a loong country
<greg-g> yes it is :)
<czajkowski> nods
<pedro_> so most of the 'issues' we have are related to that
<greg-g> do you have sub geographical get togethers/meetings?
<pedro_> we have problems with things like: merch
<pedro_> how to send the merch to the guys that are 900kms away from the main city :-P
<czajkowski> nods that is sometimes an issue in teams it is sometimes active in one area over an other, but things change
<pedro_> the bill is a bit big when you have to do that
<czajkowski> true!
<pedro_> yeah, we try to have monthly meetings to keep the communication going
 * SergioMeneses nobs
<pedro_> and we also use the ML and since the past year facebook for the communication
<czajkowski> pedro_: how do you guys organise events with people does everyone pitch in or how is it done
<pedro_> mostly for sending announcements
<pedro_> it seems that we have more users in that group that in the loco team itself :-P
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, Can you tell us something about your future goals?
<SergioMeneses> fefa_, âââ
<pedro_> fefa_: all yours :-)
<fefa_> SergioMeneses  the most importanta is waht pedro_ sayd before
<fefa_> we eant to get to the entyre country
<fefa_> with talks, events,etc
<fefa_> and also help people outside santiago to do that
<fefa_> like pedro- sayd is a little hard for the money that we spend sending merch but we do the best we can do
<fefa_> :)
<czajkowski> is there anything the council can do to help you ?
<SergioMeneses> fefa_, great
<czajkowski> not financial :)
<czajkowski> but on other ways
<pedro_> sometimes we have issues contacting Canonical for getting CDS
<SergioMeneses> sponsors
<pedro_> so maybe that's something you guys can help us with?
<pedro_> for example, we didn't get any reply for like 6 months or so for the last request
<pedro_> that was an issue for us
<kamusin> true true..
<pedro_> in the end , we have to spend money that was destinated to actually send merch to the rest of the country
<pedro_> in CDS
<czajkowski> hmm
<czajkowski> pedro_: was this for the approved cd allocation ?
<pedro_> so our budget was reduced because of that
<pedro_> czajkowski: yeah
<greg-g> the shipit process was holding you up?
<greg-g> huh
<greg-g> that's good to know, pedro_ , thanks
<czajkowski> you did apply for them ?
<pedro_> don't really know if that happened to some other loco team or not
<czajkowski> #action czajkowski chase up on Chile loco CD allocation
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski chase up on Chile loco CD allocation
<czajkowski> pedro_: fefa_ if someone could drop me a mail with your details I will chase up on that for you tomrorow czajkowski@ubuntu.com
<czajkowski> sorry about that
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: greg-g itnet7 anything else?
<itnet7> Thanks for not getting discouraged pedro_ ;-0
<pedro_> no worries
<greg-g> I'm good
<itnet7> and team
<SergioMeneses> me too
<pedro_> czajkowski: will do it, thanks
<fefa_> czajkowski great i'll sendo you an email with all the details
<fefa_> thanks
<kamusin> shiping process is always a stress point for our pockets
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the re approval of the Chile loco
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the re approval of the Chile loco
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<czajkowski> +1 :)
<meetingology> +1 :) received from czajkowski
<itnet7> +1 Awesome Job!!
<meetingology> +1 Awesome Job!! received from itnet7
<SergioMeneses> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from SergioMeneses
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the re approval of the Chile loco
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<greg-g> thanks pedro_ fefa_ and the rest of the team!
<c3959_> :-)
<itnet7> Definitely
<fefa_> thank you guys
<pedro_> thanks folks and sorry again for not having the whole loco team involved in this process as we wanted to :-)
<SergioMeneses> congratulations fefa_ pedro_ and ubuntu chilean team!
<greg-g> pedro_: no worries
<czajkowski> #action SergioMeneses update approved locoteams with chile new expiray date
<meetingology> ACTION: SergioMeneses update approved locoteams with chile new expiray date
 * fefa_ was very nervous 
<fefa_> thanks
<kamusin> thank you guys
<pedro_> SergioMeneses: just set it as 2020 or something  :-P
<cristianvirtual> :)
<arvaro> gracias!
<cristianvirtual> \o/
<czajkowski> #topic Uruguay LoCo Re approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Uruguay LoCo Re approval
<SergioMeneses> pedro_, jajaja
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UruguayTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<PabloRubianes> Hello
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: ping
<PabloRubianes> hi czajkowski
<SergioMeneses> hello Ubuntu Uruguay Team!
<czajkowski> welcome !
<SergioMeneses> hello PabloRubianes
<czajkowski> thanks for coming and sorry for keeping you waiting
<PabloRubianes> if you follow the event links there are photos and more details
<PabloRubianes> no problem czajkowski
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: who did the video work for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MCBDenb2bs
<czajkowski> that was just AMAZING!!!
<SergioMeneses> video with Mark!
<SergioMeneses> :)
<PabloRubianes> that was a huge almost one year process
<PabloRubianes> we started to talk to Argentina loco in order to have a multi country event
<SergioMeneses> PabloRubianes, congratulations about the UbuConLA,
<PabloRubianes> and all worked really well
<SergioMeneses> PabloRubianes, yes, I can see it in the planet!
<PabloRubianes> thanks to google hangout and lot of hard work we did a great conference
<czajkowski> nods
<PabloRubianes> czajkowski, people was shocked about the video
<greg-g> czajkowski: that video work:
<greg-g> http://www.vacuispacii.org/motion-graphics-para-ubucon-latinoamerica/
<czajkowski> yes that was pretty
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: so tell us about your team
<PabloRubianes> the team is quite active
<PabloRubianes> trying to create new forms of events
<PabloRubianes> as the "Welcome Day"
<czajkowski> oh do tell
<czajkowski> what's that ?
<czajkowski> I like to hear about new ideas
<SergioMeneses> new members?
<SergioMeneses> something like FLISOL?
<PabloRubianes> mainly is to atract new people on the street
<czajkowski> more formal than an Ubuntu hour ? but not a conference?
<PabloRubianes> czajkowski, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UruguayTeam/Eventos/UserDay_14-01-2012
<PabloRubianes> there are a picture there
<PabloRubianes> we ask to the museum for energy
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> something different alright
<SergioMeneses> PabloRubianes, ubuntu on the street
<PabloRubianes> and with laptops showed people on the street what ubuntu is
<czajkowski> wow
<itnet7> Very nice!
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: do you feel there are any issues in the team that need help with or in general ?
<PabloRubianes> czajkowski, we have a similar issue with the cds
<PabloRubianes> but is different that chile
<PabloRubianes> because the problem is the customs don't believe someone can send a ton of cds to give away
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: did you get them at all ?
<czajkowski> ahh
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: did you contact shipit for a letter?
<PabloRubianes> and they want to charge us
<PabloRubianes> czajkowski,
<PabloRubianes> yes we did
<czajkowski> and..
<PabloRubianes> but as we had problems we stoped to ask for them until we can arrange with customs
<PabloRubianes> we don't want to cds to be wasted
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> ok so for the 12.04 cds did you ask for them or not ?
<greg-g> I'm sorry you have to deal with that situation, that is not encouraging.
<PabloRubianes> is a Uruguayan problem and we will fix it
<PabloRubianes> greg-g, to fight this
<PabloRubianes> we give away cds asking fot a blank one
<PabloRubianes> is not the same but is useful
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: did you ask for the 12.04 ones?
<PabloRubianes> czajkowski, no because this situacion
<PabloRubianes> we are going to the customs administration in a few weeks
<PabloRubianes> so maybe we can arrange this
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: ok can you drop me amail with details and I'll follow up tomorrow please
<czajkowski> #action czajkowski follow up on PabloRubianes CD issue with shipit
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski follow up on PabloRubianes CD issue with shipit
<PabloRubianes> czajkowski, ok thanks
<czajkowski> ok so any more comments as we have on more team to see
<greg-g> I'm good
<itnet7> I think we're good
<itnet7> :-)
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the re approval of the Uruguay LoCo
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the re approval of the Uruguay LoCo
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<SergioMeneses> no
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<SergioMeneses> +1
<itnet7> +1 Great Job!
<meetingology> +1 received from SergioMeneses
<meetingology> +1 Great Job! received from itnet7
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the re approval of the Uruguay LoCo
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<czajkowski> #action SergioMeneses update LP approved locoteams
<meetingology> ACTION: SergioMeneses update LP approved locoteams
<PabloRubianes> Thanks to the LoCo Council
<SergioMeneses> PabloRubianes, congratulations!
<PabloRubianes> and czajkowski one more thing
<itnet7> Thanks for all of you and your teams hard work!!
<PabloRubianes> thanks to help us in the issue with the dates of expiration!
<czajkowski> #topic Quebec re approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Quebec re approval
<czajkowski> PabloRubianes: np
<PabloRubianes> :)
<czajkowski> komputes: ping
<komputes> hi czajkowski
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuebecTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<itnet7> Hey there komputes !
<komputes> hi itnet7
<SergioMeneses> hello ubuntu Quebec!
<czajkowski> komputes: sorry for that but as we have so many to get through if people don't turn up we have to move on
<komputes> and hello to my fellow loco team members cyphermox and IdleOne
<czajkowski> komputes: so how is Quebec loco doing ?
<komputes> czajkowski: yup, no problem
<cyphermox> hey hey
<komputes> czajkowski: very vibrant as usual. mailing list is the most used for internal communication in the loco.
<czajkowski> cyphermox: IdleOne alohe
<czajkowski> *a
<komputes> We run regular events for new and experienced users.
<cyphermox> komputes: we should get started on organizing a bug jam very very soon
<czajkowski> so I'm not used to seeing testimonals on a loco page, that's rather new :)
<czajkowski> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-qc/events/history that is some list of activities!!
<komputes> just a few kind words from our vocal members )
<komputes> As I said, we regularly run activities. And they are fun, we usually bring food, have presentations and discussions.
<czajkowski> komputes: so who organises the events?
<komputes> czajkowski: cyphermox and I
<greg-g> 2011 was quite active! are you still doing those Ubuntu Hours?
<czajkowski> ah yes my other name sake for highlighting :)
<cyphermox> it's usually me and/or komputes, yes, but there is often interest in having activities in other locations than montreal where other loco team members organize their activities, since it's pretty geographically dispersed
<czajkowski> nods
<komputes> greg-g: not as frequently due to work schedule, I would like to delegate that to another member so that we have ubuntu hours more frequently
<czajkowski> do you encourage people who are local to you guys to start their own meet ups ?
<czajkowski> or do tney have to come through you guys ?
<cyphermox> greg-g: the person who was doing the ubuntu hours regularly no longer really does much (MagicFab) but I've been discussing with another member starting to do this again in automn
<komputes> czajkowski: they do not have to go through us, we often get announcements for other places than Montreal in the mailing list.
<greg-g> ahh, good ole magicfab :)
<czajkowski> komputes: that;s what I like to hear :)
<cyphermox> czajkowski: no, we strongly encourage people to make their own, and when I see people mentioning stuff I offer them to add the event to the loco directory
<IdleOne> Hello!
<SergioMeneses> cyphermox, MagiFab is from Colombian! I know him
<czajkowski> don't like to hear of blocking having events!
<czajkowski> cyphermox: brilliant!
<cyphermox> SergioMeneses: indeed
<czajkowski> <3 hapy
<cyphermox> he's more involved in Trisquel, FSF, and work lately :)
<SergioMeneses> cyphermox, yes, he told me
<czajkowski> any other comments/issues
<cyphermox> I'm getting a nice interest in Ubuntu from the UniversitÃ© de Montreal, so as soon as students start going to school again, we should be getting a few new loco members I expect :)
<czajkowski> did ye get your cds?
<cyphermox> czajkowski: no
<czajkowski> bah
<cyphermox> we have a few CDs in the office though
<czajkowski> cyphermox: did ye apply
<czajkowski> for 12.04 ?
<cyphermox> czajkowski: no, it was for approved loco teams :)
<czajkowski> cyphermox: ah confusing as your team says re approval
<czajkowski> ok
<cyphermox> right
<czajkowski> but now I clicked
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the re approval of the Quebec LoCo
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the re approval of the Quebec LoCo
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<IdleOne> I just want to say that both komputes and cyphermox are awesome people and they work very hard at keeping Ubuntu alive in Montreal and Quebec in general. I only wish I had more time to help them out.
<SergioMeneses> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from SergioMeneses
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<itnet7> +1 good job
<meetingology> +1 good job received from itnet7
<greg-g> great work everyone!
<cyphermox> thanks so much komputes for organizing the wiki pages and all :)
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the re approval of the Quebec LoCo
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<czajkowski> #action SergioMeneses update LP approved locos
<meetingology> ACTION: SergioMeneses update LP approved locos
<czajkowski> #action greg-g to update the wiki and team report with meeting mins
<meetingology> ACTION: greg-g to update the wiki and team report with meeting mins
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 19 21:15:01 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-19-20.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-19-20.05.html
<czajkowski> whoooo
<czajkowski> :)
<komputes> Thank you all for voting us back to Approval state.
<SergioMeneses> congratulations Ubuntu Quebec! - cyphermox
<greg-g> thanks everyone!
<komputes> Thanks everyone
<cyphermox> SergioMeneses: yay!
<greg-g> thanks for a great meeting and great Ubuntu LoCo Community, so healthy, so wonderful
<itnet7> Congrats to all the teams today!!
<czajkowski> thank you all for coiming
<czajkowski> *coming
<czajkowski> great meeting
<Geochr> Thanks loco council. Good night from Greece
<SergioMeneses> thanks for comming
<czajkowski> Slan :)
<Geochr> Congraculation to all teams
 * SergioMeneses has work to do!
<trinikrono> congrats to all the teams
<fefa_> congrats evryone
<bkerensa> congrats!
<metasansana> congrats \o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-20
<Destine> sorry, something wrong with my network connection.
<balloons> .me waves
<balloons> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 20 14:00:58 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:
<phillw> o/
<balloons> Hello everyone
 * pitti waves hello
 * hggdh waves discreetly
<balloons> hggdh, :-)
<balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<balloons> I don't believe we had any.. just checking to confirm :-)
<balloons> Nope, k
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Updates
<balloons> hggdh, care to talk a bit about ubuntu?
<hggdh> heh
<hggdh> We are going on nicely. There was a bit of a scare yesterday, with bug...
 * hggdh goes check
<hggdh> bah, cannot find it. But it was a problem with dpkg amd multiarch
<hggdh> that caused dpkg to completely fail to work. Corrected yesterday, and a new dpkg is now available
<hggdh> apart from that, it is business as usual. We have pretty much been able to provide working images continuously this cycle
<hggdh> well, almost continuously ;-)
<hggdh> ..
<balloons> :-)
<balloons> I saw gema talk a bit about UTAH
<balloons> what's going on now with that? Is there a meeting place for people interested now?
<hggdh> there is a mailing list for -- ubuntu-utah-dev@lists.ubuntu.com
<hggdh> anyone interested can subscribe, and we expect it to be low-volume
<hggdh> we do not have meetings or presentations scheduled for UTAH right now
<hggdh> but we can set one if there is a need
<balloons> are you able to demo it hggdh ?
<hggdh> no, I am not -- I am just now getting to use it. Sorry
<hggdh> but
<hggdh> UTAH is currently limited to dealing with VMs (specifically libvirtd)
<hggdh> support for bare-metal installation and testing will come in a few weeks
<balloons> thanks hggdh
<hggdh> the whole idea of UTAH is to provide a common base for test submission and control (and, up to a point, reporting)
<balloons> questions?
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Flavor Updates
<balloons> phillw, care to start us off?
<phillw> all quiet on lubuntu, just one bug that seems possibly hardware related.
<phillw> they're finalising off the applications that will be included by default
<balloons> any big changeups?
<phillw> nothing as yet, the application changes are planned after A2, afaik
<phillw> they're testing the applications before inclusion, so hopefully there will be very little impact on the iso (famous last words!).
<phillw> that's all from me :)
<balloons> hehe!
<balloons> alright, let's see.. how about xubuntu?
<astraljava> Yes, hi.
<balloons> howdy astraljava
<astraljava> Well, we have finally had some testing, and the tests have gone pretty nicely, a few bugs of course.
<astraljava> We're having the team meeting right after this one, and I want to discuss our participation on Alpha-2 milestone.
<astraljava> My personal opinion is that we should do it, but let's see.
<astraljava> I just started to gather data through the xml-rpc interface, but haven't really made it there, yet.
<astraljava> But it'll be of more value during the milestones, anyway.
<astraljava> We've also started to enhance our testcases.
<astraljava> During one of those discussions, some confusion arose about the categorization of bugs.
<astraljava> But we should talk about them later this meeting.
<astraljava> That's pretty much it for Xubuntu. No questions? Moving on. *smirk*
<astraljava> ..
<balloons> astraljava, sounds good, we'll discuss the bug issue in a moment
<balloons> alright, kubuntu?
<balloons> mythbuntu?
<balloons> edubuntu?
<balloons> :-) ubuntu studio?
<astraljava> Still here. :)
<balloons> yes, take two astraljava
<highvoltage> sorry what meeting is this again?
<balloons> hey highvoltage :-)
<astraljava> Studio is a bit of a poor puppy here. We haven't had a working image since $deity_remembers_when.
<highvoltage> heya balloons
<balloons> this is the qa community meeting
<highvoltage> ah ok
<astraljava> Contributions to the flavor has been to a minimum. We have left packages hanging in the FTBFS state for way too long.
<balloons> k.. so plans for alpha 2?
<balloons> going to skip?
<astraljava> Also there were some changes in the infrastructure (xfce4), which we just neglected to react to.
<astraljava> My feeling is yes, that'll be likely.
<astraljava> Unless something miraculous happens during the few upcoming days, definitely.
<astraljava> Things are picking up, though, so still very much looking for the Beta milestones.
<astraljava> ..
<astraljava> looking forward*
<balloons> sounds good
<balloons> alright any last questions before we move on?
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<balloons> So, I have an update to talk a little about, but we'll start with your bugs questions astraljava
<astraljava> Alright, so we chatted about the critical bugs vs. just bugs on the tracker.
<astraljava> We did agree that whenever you stumble upon a bug that is not highly relevant to the testcase, you can mark the test as passed, but mention the bug number.
<astraljava> But where we didn't come to a conclusion is, and my question is: What exactly is a critical bug?
<astraljava> Failing to install? Sure.
<astraljava> But other parts? What's your take on it over at the vanilla side?
<balloons> we just had this same discussion
<balloons> I was hoping to remove the concept of "critical bugs" and go with just bugs
<balloons> however, as it stands the definition is something that prevents the testcase from passing
<balloons> in other words, in the testcase failed, you should file a critical bug
<balloons> if it didn't fail any bugs you found are just bugs
<astraljava> Yeah, but some parties were of the opinion that only the uninstallability marks the test as failed.
<astraljava> But I was thinking more of the releasability.
<balloons> if it failed, and you found other bugs which didn't neccessary lead to it failing somehow, you could also have just bugs on a normal entry
<balloons> well, testcases are diverse
<balloons> so it may very well install but fail the arch check or something
<balloons> by the current definition, it would still be crtiical
<balloons> I can't remember where we left the discussion ATM
<astraljava> Right, so if you may, I'd present the exact case that lead us bickering; our case wants to check for possible USB sticks, and mounting them.
<balloons> it's probably worth continuing on the mailing list / opening a bug against the ubuntu qa website
<astraljava> Now I agree that the case should be worded better. But what good is mounting a stick, if you cannot browse it? That's what happened with the tester. dmesg correctly identified the stick, but thunar couldn't browse it.
<astraljava> Nevermind the beef of the case here, but I would want the guidelines clear for any similar cases in the future. :)
<phillw> I'd consider not being able to browse a mounted usb stick as critical.
<phillw> though as to which application to file it against... that is another matter.
<astraljava> Yeah, me too; again with the releasability, I would not release such an image where file browsing of removable media doesn't work. :)
<balloons> well, my idea was the terms are confusing and unneeded. Simply note the bugs filed when they happen
<balloons> lp will take care of severity
<astraljava> That's true. So we'll just figure out inside the project, whether the bug constitutes the test as failing or passing?
<balloons> well, I mean if the test fails, it fails
<balloons> etheir way you note the bugs
<balloons> as far as when you release and what you release it's up to the team
<balloons> you can release note (almost) anything ;-0
<astraljava> Right. Well let me put it another way; are there situations where a point in the testcase fails, but will not fail the whole test?
<astraljava> Or are all points critical in that sense; fail any, and the whole test is marked as failed.
<balloons> astraljava, right.. as of now, everything is crticial
<balloons> if ANYTHING fails, the whole thing fails
<astraljava> Ok, thanks. We'll just have to be careful with the wording, then. Cheers! :)
<astraljava> ..
<balloons> ok, from my end, I'll be quick, we're running out of time. phillw and myself prototyped out the structure for the new testcase mgmt on the tracker
<balloons> i'll be migrating over the first testcases today and sending a mail off for feedback
<balloons> so look for that, and be sure and share your thoughts. We'll discuss the admin side in more detail tomorrow @ the roundtable..
<balloons> A new team has been created in order to help maintain testcases.. I'll be asking some folks who are already involved to help staff it. The goal is to get a good group of trusted folks to maintain and expand the tests over time
<balloons> that said, anyone can 'file a bug' to add a new testcase or issue a correction to a testcase
<balloons> The testcase format hasn't changed, but I will be sending it around as well
<balloons> Any questions?
<balloons> for flavors it should allow you to setup testcases for your images, using the ubuntu testcases as needed.. So it should work out nicely
<astraljava> Looking forward to seeing that. Good job!
<balloons> stgraber has been wonderful in helping us get this all done.. be sure and thank him
<balloons> alrighty, any final questions or comments?
<phillw> o/
<balloons> yes phillw
<phillw> I will not be here next meeting, I'm hoping to have cover in place; but cannot guarantee.
 * balloons notes that his IRC client really refuses to tab-complete phillw's name
<balloons> no worries phillw.
<balloons> if no one is able to fill in, we'll catch up the following week
<balloons> alright folks, that's a wrap!
<balloons> thanks for coming out everyone
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 20 14:52:58 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-20-14.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-20-14.00.html
<phillw> thanks for chairing balloons
<astraljava> Thanks guys!
<balloons> thank you for coming ;-)
 * xnox 0/
<jodh> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 20 15:01:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<stokachu> o/
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> cjwatson stgraber ev infinity doko bdmurray ogra stokachu barry jodh xnox slangasek
 * xnox in security team they play tag during lightning round. Somebody goes first, and then at the end chooses who goes next. keeps people on their toes & make them follow the meeting ;-)
<cjwatson> Some minor merges and syncs.
<cjwatson> Converted apt-setup to new world order for dpkg multiarch configuration.
<cjwatson> Experimenting with efilinux's interface.
<cjwatson> Got per-pocket upload permissions working, and deployed them for -backports and -security.
<cjwatson> Finished LP API exports needed for new-style change-override.
<cjwatson> Fixed a bug where lp/debian/+source/* imports get confused for Debian source packages that require DEB_VENDOR=debian to extract correctly.
<cjwatson> Worked on making Archive.copyPackage work for the security team.
<cjwatson> ..
<xnox> cjwatson: yeah. is that for lp only or for package-import as well? the DEB_VENDOR bit?
<cjwatson> LP only
<stgraber> sorry, still typing
<cjwatson> udd probably ought to do it but I don't work on that :)
<ev> stgraber: shall I go while you finish?
<xnox> cjwatson: ok.
<slangasek> ev: go ahead
<ev> - Updated average time between failures to the latest nvd3 goodness and told
<ev>   it to fetch up to 30 days (efficiently) at a time, so you should start to
<ev>   see a better picture being formed once that gets deployed.
<ev> - Cleaned up the problem pages on errors.ubuntu.com. We now have colorized
<ev>   traces for both binary and interpreted crashes.
<ev> - Wrote an LEP for the bugs to fixed binary packages work in Launchpad.
<ev>   Waiting to hear back from Francis and Rob:
<ev>   https://dev.launchpad.net/LEP/BugsToFixedBinaries
<ev> - Had a long conversation with pitti over the design of the duplicates
<ev>   database. The existing model lets multiple crash signatures exist and has an
<ev>   algorithm to map duplicate bug reports to the correct master bug report for
<ev>   a given signature. We agreed that this wasn't ideal. This is especially so
<ev>   given that errors.ubuntu.com effectively uses crash signatures as a primary
<ev>   key and I've run head first into this in attempting to weld apport's
<ev>   - Duplicating lots of bugs to a single bug used to cause timeouts.
<ev>   - Before we had nice controls around per bug mail notification people would
<ev>     get spammed with messages they didn't care about.
<ev>   - Sometimes two distinct problems share the same crash signature.
<ev>   The first two points are resolved and the second one needs to be addressed
<ev>   properly. So we agreed that the following will be done:
<ev>   - We'll have a single master bug for a given crash signature.
<ev>   - As the problem gets fixed in releases, the release task status will be
<ev>     changed.
<ev>   - We'll let developers split apart crashes with the same signature by
<ev>     creating a new signature using the server-side apport hooks.
<ev> - Since we didn't have a team meeting last week, you fortunately missed my
<ev>   detailed whinging of why talking to Launchpad as a web service is a road
<ev>   paved with landmines. I was going to build a celery worker to service
<ev>   requests to communicate with Launchpad, but I talked with Rob about it some
<ev>   more and he felt that the more expedient option of talking straight HTTP to
<ev>   Launchpad's API was acceptable.
<ev>   - So I wrote code to do just this for the case of creating bugs
<ev>     from the errors.ubuntu.com front page as part of the e.u.c API and bound
<ev>     the AJAX code I had written for handling this POST operation to it. I'm
<ev>     also going to have the bucketing process automatically create these bugs
<ev>     when the instance count gets above 30 or so, so you'll likely rarely see
<ev>     the 'create bug' links or care about them.
<ev> - Started writing the Daisy (Cassandra) apport crashdb implementation
<ev>   (lp:~ev/apport/daisy-duplicates-db) as eluded to above. This will let
<ev>   crash-digger and the daisy.ubuntu.com retracers share knowledge of the
<ev>   mapping of crash signatures to bugs. This in turn will let us have 'create
<ev>   bug' links on http://errors.ubuntu.com and is required for the 'fixed binary
<ev>   packages for a given crash signature' work.
<ev> - Verified the latest USB disks for the shop.
<ev> - Started implementing errors from hanging applications in apport
<ev>   (lp:~ev/apport/reports-from-hangs) now that we have an approach that the
<ev>   security team is happy with:
<ev>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/whoopsie-daisy/+bug/1006398
<ev> - Looked into handling hanging Python applications with help from Colin:
<ev>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/whoopsie/+bug/1015080
<ev> - Started implementing recoverable error reporting in apport.
<ev> - Fixed some minor bugs in lp:daisy and lp:errors.
<ev> - Landed my libwhoopsie branch on trunk and released a new version.
<ev> - Landed by 'show previous crash reports' branch on lp:activity-log-manager.
<ev>   Cleaned things up for a release, but after talking with the zeitgeist guys
<ev>   that wont be until next week.
<ev> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1006398 in whoopsie-daisy (Ubuntu) "Bypassing ptrace restrictions for errors from hanging applications" [Undecided,New]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1015080 in Whoopsie "Retrieve Python tracebacks from hanging applications" [Wishlist,New]
 * stgraber is ready now
<infinity> Is it just me, or are the novels getting longer?
 * xnox is there a pager plugin for xchat?
<ev> infinity: :)
<ogra_> infinity, they are
<stokachu> i cant read fast enough
<stgraber> - 12.04.1
<stgraber>  - Preparing team meeting, team meeting and meeting notes.
<stgraber>  - Helped verify a few items in the queue
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Improved our apparmor profiles to be easier to edit/fork by our users
<stgraber>  - Converted Serge's initial work on liblxc into a quilt patch
<stgraber>  - Implemented python3-lxc, a python C binding of liblxc0 with some python overrides
<stgraber>  - Got test packages built and published in my PPA
<stgraber>  - Working on updating the bindings as Serge implements new features in liblxc
<stgraber>  - Still need some more work on memory/error management in my C code...
<stgraber> - ISO tracker
<stgraber>  - Implemented the remaining items from the QA team
<stgraber>  - Merged the testcase management branches into their respective trunk branches
<stgraber>  - Got IS to deploy the new code and ran the DB upgrade, so far all looks good
<stgraber>  - Worked on a few minor UI fixes that should land later this week
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - Posted a long reply to a bridge-utils Debian bug, trying to explain how that
<stgraber>    even based networking stuff works in Ubuntu.
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Patch pilot on Friday
<stgraber> - TODO this week
<stgraber>  - Minor bugfixes to the ISO tracker
<stgraber>  - More LXC work on the API and python binding, hoping to have something we can send
<stgraber>    upstream over the next few weeks.
<stgraber>  - Go through the networking bugs, merge/sync the networking packages, including bumping isc-dhcp
<stgraber>    to 4.2. SRU any important fix found while doing that.
<stgraber>  - Continue going through the pending-sru and help for these that are stuck on verification-needed
<stgraber> (DONE)
<stgraber> oh, and I'll be off on Monday (Quebec day)
<infinity> - Lots of PlusOneMaint fixing, sponsoring and archiveadminning
<infinity> - Dealt with several SRU kernels
<infinity> - Hunted down one mono/armel bug, only to find that the natty kernels are giving us more issues; this needs escalating
<infinity> - dpkg merge done, with upgrade fallout needing to be dealt with
<infinity> - debhelper merge and eglibc fix in to match the new dpkg
<infinity> ...
 * infinity needs to write these things earlier, so he can be as verbose as the cool kids.
<slangasek> ev: I think one of your sentences got cut off ;) "weld apport's [...]"
<xnox> ev: so did you have to manually adjust the sizes of the usbsticks to make them fit for validation purposes?
<ogra_> infinity, dont ! i have to summarize it for the release meeting
<ev> slangasek: rubbish, okayâ¦.pasting
<doko> - gcc-4.7 c++11/c++98 ABI issues
<doko> - python3 porting jam
<doko> - python3.3 updates, and cross builds
<doko> ..
<ev>   key and I've run head first into this in attempting to weld apport's
<ev>   duplicates database into daisy's Cassandra database. The reasons for this
<ev>   behavior were as follows:
<ev>   - Duplicating lots of bugs to a single bug used to cause timeouts.
<ev>   - Before we had nice controls around per bug mail notification people would
<ev>     get spammed with messages they didn't care about.
<ev>   - Sometimes two distinct problems share the same crash signature.
<ev>   The first two points are resolved and the second one needs to be addressed
<ev>   properly. So we agreed that the following will be done:
<ev>   - We'll have a single master bug for a given crash signature.
<ev>   - As the problem gets fixed in releases, the release task status will be
<ev>     changed.
<ev>   - We'll let developers split apart crashes with the same signature by
<ev>     creating a new signature using the server-side apport hooks.
<ev> - Since we didn't have a team meeting last week, you fortunately missed my
<ev>   detailed whinging of why talking to Launchpad as a web service is a road
<ev>   paved with landmines. I was going to build a celery worker to service
<ev>   requests to communicate with Launchpad, but I talked with Rob about it some
<ev>   more and he felt that the more expedient option of talking straight HTTP to
<ev>   Launchpad's API was acceptable.
<ev> hopefully that fills the gap
<ev> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1051056/ - in case it doesnt
<bdmurray> porting of update-notifier to python3
<bdmurray> added in dist-upgrade tag to apport package failures in update-manager
<bdmurray> made apport not report 'dpkg-deb --control returned error exit status 2' package install failures
<bdmurray> set up rls-q-incoming report in arsenal and on cranberry
<bdmurray> set up ubuntu-bugcontrol-tools branch which is separate from ubuntu-qa-tools branch
<bdmurray> updated bugsquad greasemonkey tags and replies
<bdmurray> wrote code to check to see if bugs for which a bug pattern has been written are fixed
<bdmurray> removing bug patterns that exist for fixed bug reports that are no longer needed
<bdmurray> blog post regarding lp-bug-dupe-properties being merged and how awesome it is
<bdmurray> landed launchpad branch for bug 912137
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912137 in Launchpad itself "bug subscribers portlet sorted in reverse order" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912137
<bdmurray> Launchpad bug fix for bug 826864 (created_before searchTasks parameter in API)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 826864 in compiz-fusion-plugins-main (Ubuntu) "Grid plugin + xterm = no size cycling" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/826864
<bdmurray> . done .
 * jodh thinks his eyes may have reached todays byte quota.
<bdmurray> hmm not that bug
<slangasek> doko: the c++11/c++98 discussion on ubuntu-devel seems to have stalled; can you send a mail today, to make sure the desktop team knows what they need to do to get un-stuck?
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_> * some flash-kernel fixes
<ogra_> * merges
<ogra_> * started looking into livecd-rootfs to add diversions for flash-kernel where needed when building ac100
<ogra_>   images, turned out to be a missing env var
<ogra_> * work through ftbfs arm list
<ogra_> * tested new nvidia-tegra driver with the quantal ac100 kernel
<doko> ahh, yes, will do
<ogra_> * piloting
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_> * livefs switch for arm images
<ogra_> * build ac100 again
<ogra_> * upload nvidia tegra armhf driver to archive (was waiting for the 3.1 kernel)
<ogra_> * add support for panda and ac100 to ubuntu-drivers-common
<ogra_> â¦
 * xnox wants lightlighting round in mobi format to read on my kindle ahead of meeting ;-)
<slangasek> bdmurray: update-notifier> I believe I've landed your merge but didn't upload, fwiw
<stokachu> * DONE http://pad.lv/496922 - Gave detailed instructions on how to extend snmp with external calls
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 496922 in net-snmp (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu snmpd package doesn't include all net-snmpd modules" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<stokachu> * TODO http://pad.lv/578536 - Backported 2 patches that address hanging automount and listing stale mount points in /proc/mounts during a re-read of map entr$
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 578536 in autofs5 (Ubuntu Natty) "when stopped, automount orphans some mounts" [Medium,Fix committed]
<stokachu> * TODO http://pad.lv/951343 - SRU and merge proposal done, is now waiting on merge proposals to go through. (On track for 12.04.1)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 951343 in nss-pam-ldapd (Ubuntu Precise) "[SRU] authentication fails silently with long pam_authz_search filter" [Medium,In progress]
<stokachu> * DONE http://pad.lv/933903 - SRU added and pushed to precise-proposed (On track for 12.04.1)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 933903 in dropbear (Debian) "Dropbear's initramfs scripts mount /dev/pts a second time" [Unknown,New]
<stokachu> Data Not Available
<stokachu> oops
<stokachu> * TODO http://pad.lv/977952 - Blocked on http://pad.lv/977947 being completed.
<stokachu> * TODO http://pad.lv/977940 - SRU complete, waiting on micahg response from comment #5. (On track for 12.04.1)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977952 in libbonoboui (Ubuntu Precise) "Please transition libbonoboui to multi-arch" [Medium,Triaged]
<stokachu> * TODO http://pad.lv/977964 - SRU template written, needs debdiff for precise. (On track for 12.04.1)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977947 in libbonobo (Ubuntu Quantal) "Please transition libbonobo to multi-arch" [Medium,Triaged]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977940 in gnome-vfs (Ubuntu Precise) "Please transition gnome-vfs to multi-arch" [Medium,In progress]
<stokachu> * DONE http://pad.lv/890928 - SRU complete, pushed to -proposed (On track for 12.04.1)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977964 in libart-lgpl (Ubuntu Precise) "Please transition libart-lgpl to multi-arch" [Medium,Triaged]
<stokachu> * Additional Issues brought to my attention
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890928 in libxkbfile (Ubuntu Precise) "When trying to install libxkbfile1:i386 the pkg manager asks to remove too many important packages [Multi-arch]" [Low,Fix committed]
<stokachu> ** TODO http://pad.lv/979661 - Need to discuss with Foundations on status of case.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 979661 in update-manager (Ubuntu Quantal) "oneiric to precise: debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Gnome and falls back to Dialog" [High,Confirmed]
<slangasek> bdmurray: in addition to the rls-q-incoming report, will you also set up a report for tracking accepted targeted bugs, please?
<stokachu> ...
<slangasek> (AFAIK we don't have that yet? or I don't know the URL)
<bdmurray> slangasek: I'd thought that launchpad was sufficient for tracking those
<slangasek> bdmurray: not afaik because we can't get the report directly from LP broken down by team :/
<bdmurray> I had typoed bug 8268654
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 8268654 could not be found
<bdmurray> I had typoed bug 826854
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 826854 in Launchpad itself "It should be possible to search bugs given a range of date_created using the API" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/826854
<bdmurray> slangasek: If the team accepted the bug won't they know about it?
<barry> more python 3 porting: apturl (landed), python3-xapian (ongoing upstream discussion), libpeas (upstream supports it, needs packaging work, thanks xnox for the cdbs magic!). helped stgraber with some python3/lxc debugging.  patch piloted.  todo: continue with libpeas and xapian.  what's up with twisted?  done.
<slangasek> bdmurray: not reliably? :)
<slangasek> ogra_: is the livefs switch for arm images coming before alpha2?
<ogra_> slangasek, i was planning to have that before yep
<xnox> barry: i have further thoughts on the libpeas, will talk to you later.
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay
<barry> xnox: cool
<ogra_> i'll start rolling manually built images tomorrow
<ogra_> and see what falls over
<stokachu> if someone has time to review http://pad.lv/951343 to get the merge proposal pushed into proposed i'd appreciate it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 951343 in nss-pam-ldapd (Ubuntu Precise) "[SRU] authentication fails silently with long pam_authz_search filter" [Medium,In progress]
<stgraber> stokachu: I can do that
<stokachu> stgraber: great, thanks!
<stokachu> xnox: i backported 2 patches for autofs, assuming test goes well do you think it'd be a problem getting SRU for lucid? Data Not Available
<xnox> jodh: buffer overflow ? =)
<stokachu> xnox: http://is.gd/RpIFyQ
<stokachu> sorry, paste buffer is being stupid
<xnox> stokachu: i have problems with 5.0.6, working on them. Will check if you picked up a broken patch or not which does check_nfs
<slangasek> jodh: your turn
<jodh> * boot/upstart: Working on stateful re-exec.
<jodh>   - Can now mostly serialise and deserialise Sessions, Events and
<jodh>     Processes in basic form and getting close with JobClasses.
<jodh>   - Identified that we'll need json-c version 0.10 (currently beta)
<jodh>     for Upstart as previous library versions don't appear to provide
<jodh>     the ability to detect garbage JSON data which can lead to crashes.
<jodh> j
<xnox> stokachu: did you right the patch or did you backported/cherrypicked stuff?
<slangasek> is 'j' the unicode 'done' marker of the day? :)
<stokachu> xnox: cherry picked
<ogra_> excess flood ?
<xnox> stokachu: ok.
<jodh> slangasek: yeah. It's a good letter :)
<slangasek> jodh: heh
<slangasek> jodh: do you know when json-c 0.10 is due out?
 * xnox should it not be "-- Sir J." ?! =)
<jodh> slangasek: no - will chase up on that.
<xnox> may I?
<slangasek> xnox: yes
<xnox> * python sprint: helped porting apt-btrfs-snapshot,
<xnox>   ubuntu-drivers-common, apparmor. Helped with packaging
<xnox>   questions. The funny one, was libpeas with cdbs flavor's build
<xnox>   helpers with barry.
<xnox> * became a core-dev! made good progress on boost1.49, only a couple of
<xnox>   merges gcc-4.7/ftbs left to complete that transition
<xnox> * verified that http://lwn.net/Articles/502482/ is fix-released across
<xnox>   affected kernels in all releases (precise, quantal)
<xnox> * LVM ubiquity design is in progress, unblocked - there are things
<xnox>   that I can start implementing
<xnox> * waiting for somebody with ubiquity/partman knowledge to respond to
<xnox>   an email on ubuntu-installer mailing list
<xnox> * had various discussions on how to make raid more reliable in private
<xnox>   email and bug reports on launchpad (there is more scope post-quantal
<xnox>   for hardware raid & network attached raid's)
<xnox> * merged latest mdadm, need to test it then it will be ready for
<xnox>   upload
<jodh> xnox: did I miss something in the birthday honours list? :)
<xnox> * merged latest autofs, discovered that upstream added an extra fork
<xnox>   in the pre-demonisation. This broke the current upstart job. With
<xnox>   jodh's help, we pinned it down. Need to write a small patch, retest,
<xnox>   submit to debian/upstream, and upload to quantal.
<xnox> * the new UTAH (ubuntu test automation harness) for automatic testing
<xnox>   is not yet fully ready yet. I should be able to start writing
<xnox>   automated boot/failure tests for raid/btrfs/lvm/grub in a 1-2 weeks,
<xnox>   according to gemma. Subscribed to utah-devel and tracking progress.
<xnox> * did progress on drafting Event Driven initramfs (jump in work
<xnox>   items). Still needs more copy editing & detailed transition plan of
<xnox>   all the initramfs top/bottom/etc/ scripts to upstart. Similar
<xnox>   analysis was previously done, but needs to be revisited for quantal.
<xnox> #action xnox to deal with dpkg fallout
<meetingology> ACTION: xnox to deal with dpkg fallout
 * xnox wonders if that went through or not....
<stgraber> stokachu: uploaded
<xnox> jodh: it's the perk for working on upstart
<stokachu> stgraber: perfect thank you :D
<infinity> xnox: I have no overwhelming urge to own dpkg, but if you need a sounding board for ideas (and I imagine you will, doesn't seem like the sort of thing that should be done in a vacuum), hit me up.
<xnox> infinity: ok, thank you. I haven't yet hacked dpkg itself. so it might be steep or not.
<slangasek> cjwatson, ev, stgraber: have you seen the mail to ubuntu-installer that xnox mentions above he's waiting for a response to?
<stgraber> stokachu: I only saw jamespage's comments in the merge proposals after uploading, so it's not impossible they both get rejected as the changelog entry is indeed not really descriptive of the problem/fix
<stokachu> stgraber: ah hopefully arges will follow up with that
<stgraber> stokachu: I also had to change the version number and pocket + run update-maintainer for it to match the SRU policies
<ev> huh, I don't seem to be getting mails from it
<cjwatson> slangasek: yes, in my queue :-/
<stokachu> stgraber: im just the messenger on that one
<ev> I wonder if I'm subscribed with evand@
<slangasek> dpkg in a vacuum sounds like a good way to burn out the motor
<slangasek> ev: do you think you could pluck that out of cjwatson's queue? :)
<cjwatson> Hah
<stgraber> stokachu: well, it's a bit late to follow up as I already uploaded it ;) but they are definitely good remarks that apply to any SRU
<ev> just digging up the email
<stokachu> stgraber: ok ill make sure to relay that to arges
<slangasek> my go then?
<slangasek>  * partner archive work
<slangasek>  * dpkg multiarch triggers syntax fix-up (bug #1015329)
<slangasek>  * internal discussions around SecureBoot
<slangasek>  * meeting last week to discuss structuring the SRU team work effectively
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1015329 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "dpkg fails to run after update (error: file triggers record mentions illegal package name `libgtk2.0-0' (for interest in file `/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/immodules'): ambiguous package name 'libgtk2.0-0' with more than one installed instance)" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015329
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> any questions?
<xnox> ev: quick summary: to support different types per recipe (normal/lvm/lukslvm) the data structure in ubi-partman needs to be extended with multiple recipes per disk / installation method (where method is whole disk, resize, biggest free)
<xnox> ev: i wasn't sure what is the best way to go about supporting that.
<xnox> slangasek: the SRU team work bit, did that get posted? I saw that skaet promised summaries meeting notes or something.
<cjwatson> xnox: it's possible you'll need to beef up the backend, as some of the guided partitioning methods don't offer a disk choice
<cjwatson> I wouldn't have thought recipes were the first concern though
<slangasek> xnox: ah, there's a google doc at present
<xnox> cjwatson: aha, true. I'll do a prototype and see how it will bullet trace ;-)
<stokachu> this may be out of place but i think stgraber should get a reward for all the hardwork he's doing between 12.04.1, qa, and dev :D
<slangasek> I don't know if skaet was planning to post the minutes more publically than that - we all have action items to update the wiki documentation though
<skaet> slangasek,  I'll put out a cleaned up summary
<slangasek> ok
<xnox> slangasek: ok. fair enough. it was not clear if it was public / only-people-from-the-meeting
 * xnox wonders if skaet lurks in every meeting? =))))
<slangasek> stokachu: we'll double stgraber's weekly stipend of kudos ;-)
<stokachu> lol
<infinity> slangasek: Do you know, off-hand, if we can escalate the buildd upgrades any further than they've already been escalated? :P
<stokachu> or a "kool kat of the week" poster
<stokachu> :P
<stokachu> or just a drawing on a sheet of paper would work too
<slangasek> infinity: last I saw the ticket was waiting for a response from you
<xnox> cjwatson: I see your point about concern's priority. it looked to me as the next thing to do, while the design / manual partitioner was pending.
<cjwatson> slangasek: not as of a few minutes ago
<infinity> slangasek: Yeah, I responded with a list of "all the buildds".
<slangasek> ok
<ev> xnox: adding to the above, options and extra_options aren't set in stone, but if you do change them, be careful to make sure you change them everywhere. That code isn't well tested yet.
<ev> And hey, it's an excellent opportunity to build some unit tests in :)
<cjwatson> Yeah
 * xnox ok. thank you guys.
<cjwatson> On all counts
<slangasek> infinity: it should already be near the top of the priority list then; I can attach a deadline to the ticket if there actually is one
<ev> :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<cjwatson> slangasek: make one up, everyone else does
<infinity> slangasek: Can it be in the past? :P
<bdmurray> bug 1013276 may be fall out from our work
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013276 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "update-manager crashed with ImportError in __main__: No module named UpdateManager.UpdateManager" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013276
<slangasek> infinity: did someone die when we failed to meet it? :-P
<cjwatson> slangasek: it's not desperately high up the list on https://portal.admin.canonical.com/q/ubuntu_engineering though
<cjwatson> On Python 3 porting: I had some feedback on http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=625509 to the effect that Python 3.3 arranges for subprocess.Popen(universal_newlines=True) to influence the handling of stdin as well as of stdout/stderr; so we may need to account for that in work we've done so far.
<xnox> slangasek: a good deadline is 3 weeks before precise+1 freeze, but before the next archive rebuild for q :P made up, soon, sounds like a pressing goal
<ubottu> Debian bug 625509 in python-debian "python-debian: please port to Py3k" [Normal,Open]
<cjwatson> bdmurray: urgh
<cjwatson> ... but how?
 * barry can take a look at the um bugs
<stokachu> none of this would be an issue if it was all written in lisp :X
<ev> because none of it would be written
<ev> :-P
<barry> stokachu: forth
<stokachu> LOL
<cjwatson> It's in the same package and everything
<cjwatson>  ProcCmdline: /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/update-manager
<cjwatson> Oh
 * xnox hhhmmmm lisp. btw emacs24 still didn't ping the maintainer about the plans
<cjwatson> I wonder what's invoking that with Python 2
<barry> xnox: let's get emacs24 for q!
<slangasek> instead of calling it directly?  weird
<bdmurray> oh strange I'd missed that
<stokachu> if only chromium ran within emacs i'd never need a DE again
<cjwatson> Unless I'm misunderstanding - but on my system update-manager is #!/usr/bin/python3.2
<cjwatson> (which is a bug in itself, that should be #!/usr/bin/python3)
<barry> stokachu: x is just the bagel bringing you the lox of emacs
<bdmurray> I wonder if there is some checking we should do in apport for the InterpreterPath
<ogra_> ++
<stokachu> barry: lol agreed
<infinity> I'd assume it's the old update-manager?
<xnox> stokachu: there were patches for embedable gtk viewports into emacs windows. So epiphany/gtk-webkit should be doable and there was a demo of that.
<cjwatson> infinity: Package: update-manager 1:0.163
<cjwatson> which is new
<stokachu> xnox: sweet im checking that out
<infinity> cjwatson: Is this not mid-upgrade?  It doesn't (un)cleverly re-exec itself at some point, does it?
<xnox> infinity: .... it kind of does if you abort for example. ANd how would you be ever be running the new update-manager on the old system?
 * xnox thought that upgrade-manager bugs will start appearing in Qunatal -> R upgrades
<slangasek> the bug report says the system was installed from 12.10 media, so this should be a pretty ordinary situation
<infinity> Well, I mean you could start with the old, upgrade, and then have the old attempt to re-exec "itself" with its old cmdline, which would then end up calling the python3 version with python2... *hand wavy random guessing*
<xnox> ah, ok.
<slangasek> can someone follow up to the bug and ask the submitter how u-m was being run?  I don't think we want to spend more time in the meeting speculating
 * xnox confused update-manager and upgrade-manager
<cjwatson> infinity: If it re-execs itself, you'd hope it'd honour the #!
<bdmurray> I think cjwatson did already
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> bdmurray: other bugs?
<bdmurray> bug 1013511 regarding usb-creator
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013511 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "Unable to create Ubuntu 12.04 installation USB stick on Ubuntu 12.04" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013511
 * xnox takes it
<xnox> i think i was affected as well
<bdmurray> great that just leaves bug 929092 which has a patch or two
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 929092 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashed with DBusException in call_blocking(): org.freedesktop.DBus.GLib.UnmappedError.NmSettingWirelessSecurityErrorQuark.Code1: Failed to determine AP security information" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/929092
<xnox> well one branch had loads of conflicts, I marked it 'needs-fixing' minutes after it was submitting
<xnox> didn't see the other branch
<xnox> well, because it was not proposed for a merge & I am not subscribed to that bugmail
<xnox> i could review it, but maybe someone else wants it?
<ev> not it
<slangasek> xnox: are you talking about bug #929092 now?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 929092 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashed with DBusException in call_blocking(): org.freedesktop.DBus.GLib.UnmappedError.NmSettingWirelessSecurityErrorQuark.Code1: Failed to determine AP security information" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/929092
<xnox> slangasek: yes.
<xnox>  448        if len(passphrase) > 8 and \
<xnox>  449           len(passphrase) < 64 :
<xnox>  450            return True
<xnox>  451        if len(passphrase) == 64:
<xnox>  452            for c in passphrase:
<xnox>  453                if not c in string.hexdigits: return False
<xnox>  454            return True
<cjwatson> infinity: (anyway, fwiw, the dpkg terminal log doesn't seem to indicate that's mid-upgrade)
<xnox>  455        else:
<xnox>  456            return False
<cjwatson> (from timing)
<xnox> looks beautiful.....
<infinity> cjwatson: Yeah, I noticed that after the random guessing.
<slangasek> stgraber: maybe you want to have a look at this bug, given that it involves strange corner cases with wireless?
<stgraber> slangasek: yeah, I can take a look
<slangasek> assigned
 * xnox want's to type a 9 character passphrase with a unicode character in between
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything else?
<bdmurray> slangasek: nope
<slangasek> stokachu mentioned bug #979661 in his lightning round
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 979661 in update-manager (Ubuntu Quantal) "oneiric to precise: debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Gnome and falls back to Dialog" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/979661
<slangasek> as "Need to discuss with Foundations" - shall we discuss? :)
<stokachu> sure, so this was brought to my attention from a coworker
<slangasek> cjwatson: AIUI update-manager is supposed to be detecting a terminal prompt, and that's not happening
<slangasek> is that your understanding?
 * slangasek targets to 12.04.1
<stokachu> slangasek: would you mind setting importance to high as well?
<mvo>   * fix automatic expand of the terminal if no activity happend
<mvo>     for >300s (LP: #993190)
<mvo> this one?
<slangasek> stokachu: yes, because I just set it to critical instead ;D
<slangasek> mvo: yes
<stokachu> lol sweet
<mvo> this needs reupload to proposed
<mvo> its in the precise branch of u-m
<slangasek> mvo: thanks
<cjwatson> still a hack though
<mvo> yes :/
<cjwatson> expanding after five minutes - well, it might help for some people, depending on their attention span
<slangasek> yes... but a hack may be the best we can hope for in time for 12.04.1
<cjwatson> isn't there a way to tell whether the terminal is waiting for input
<cjwatson> ?
 * xnox grep the dpkg.log?
<cjwatson> it's using vte, it ought to be able to do better than that
<xnox> or some other debconf log
<cjwatson> we shouldn't be relying on logs heree
<slangasek> cjwatson: I think we should go with the hack for now and revisit at leisure... this bug is actively confusing users right now and leaving them with no idea why their upgrade has stalled
<cjwatson> oh, I agree, it just makes me queasy
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> as long as we aren't under the impression that this actually fixes the bug
<slangasek> ack
<slangasek> cjwatson: do you want to open a separate, lower-prio bug for the more fundamental issue?
<cjwatson> sure
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<ev> how have people handled in c what would normally be solved with dependency injection or mocking in other languages?
<ev> Say I have a function that takes a c string and dispatches off to several different functions. How would you test that given a certain input it selects the right function? (In this case it's taking a response from the server and dispatching off to one of several functions to formulate a reply and send it)
<stokachu> also could i get an update from micahg on http://pad.lv/977940
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977940 in gnome-vfs (Ubuntu Precise) "Please transition gnome-vfs to multi-arch" [Medium,In progress]
<stokachu> from comment #5
<slangasek> stokachu: I'm sure you could, but micahg's not on the foundations team ;)
<ev> building the functions you'd want to mock out into a separate statically linked module, using global variables to track calls, was one suggestion
<stokachu_> sorry lagging.. re http://pad.lv/977940
<cjwatson> slangasek: do you know if the package installation failures in 979661 got handled?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977940 in gnome-vfs (Ubuntu Precise) "Please transition gnome-vfs to multi-arch" [Medium,In progress]
<slangasek> stokachu_: I'm sure you could, but micahg's not on the foundations team ;)
<skaet> slangasek,  was there resolution on how the c++11 ABI issue was going to get handled with the desktop team?
<xnox> skaet: slangasek asked doko to send a follow-up / reply
<slangasek> skaet: the unity stack needs to explicitly build with g++-4.6 until the C++11 ABI settles in 4.7; I've asked doko to follow up to the mailing list so everyone's on the same page
 * xnox sorry
<slangasek> cjwatson: package installation failures> those weren't on my radar, sorry
<cjwatson> filed bug 1015656
<xnox> ev: i'm sure there was a mock library for either C or C++
<stokachu_> slangasek: ah ok
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1015656 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "detect attempts to read from embedded terminal widget and auto-expand it" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015656
<ev> xnox: there's cmock, but it looks like a giant hack
<slangasek> ev: sounds like we should probably take that to #ubuntu-devel maybe... I don't think there's going to be a quick answer for you :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 20 16:05:09 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-20-15.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-20-15.01.html
<ev> slangasek: sure, I've got one more...
<ev> noooooooo
<slangasek> eh
<ev> :)
<slangasek> well spit it out :)
<ev> If anyone has thoughts on the points Robert raised in the 'Quickly getting fixes to users' email, please do follow up. I've directed my attention to other work items for now, but I'm inclined to believe that this idea of providing a local copy of the CA certificate is a workable approach. So more importantly, if you have objections, raise them in that email thread :).
<ev> done!
<cjwatson> slangasek: never mind, I've managed to misunderstand the log twice, even given a comment from me in the bug indicating that I'd misunderstood it previously
<cjwatson> (package installation failures)
<slangasek> cjwatson: aha :)
<slangasek> ev: ack, thanks
<slangasek> and thanks everyone
<ev> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<xnox> thanks
<stgraber> thanks!
<infinity> o/
<ogra_> thanks !
<cjwatson> ev: it's not a dynamic language, I doubt you'll find any approach that *isn't* a giant hack in some way
<stokachu_> thanksssss
<skaet> thanks xnox, slangasek,  missed that in the scrollback.
 * xnox there is always an odd one
<cjwatson> mocking is kind of one of the things dynamic languages are intrinsically better at
 * xnox was referring to infinity's wave
<ev> cjwatson: yeah, but some hacks are easier to maintain than others, and stuff that requires lots of preprocessor work worries me
<ev> I have no doubt this will not be easy either way :)
<ev> brb
<cjwatson> I would say that you use what facilities present themselves :)
<xnox> ev: me wonders if you can do python binding on top for unit testing ;-)
<cjwatson> but I agree that it would be better to test the same objects you're shipping, if possible
<cjwatson> there's always LD_PRELOAD and other such linker tricks
 * xnox used to write unittest binaries, link against the library and make the binary print loads of debug output and assert that output against known good / expected.
<xnox> but that's not really helping with ev's case
<cjwatson> gdb script? :-P
<slangasek> historically I would've said "library interposition", but we've kinda made that useless by defaulting to -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions now
<xnox> ev: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/65820/unit-testing-c-code third answer down
<xnox> talks about mocking with google test framework
<xnox> in C
<xnox> =/
<ev> xnox, cjwatson, slangasek: thanks
<phillw> sorry, running a bit late
 * MrChrisDruif wonders if Lubuntu will hold a meeting tonight
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: are you still on #lubuntu channels?
<MrChrisDruif> phillw; nope
<MrChrisDruif> But I could join and ask
<phillw> can you, I'll go check the wiki as to what is due to be discussed
<phillw> aka agenda
<MrChrisDruif> Who needs leadership anyway, right? ;-)
<rafaellaguna> sorry, I'm late
<MrChrisDruif> rafaellaguna; no, you aren't. You're early
<rafaellaguna> Â¿? nobody?
<rafaellaguna> this is bad, 5 min past hour
<phillw> hi rafaellaguna MrChrisDruif is just checking on #lubuntu to see if anyone is coming
<MrChrisDruif> phillw; -offtopic as it's the team channel ;-)
<rafaellaguna> :)
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: anyone there?
<phillw> rafaellaguna: I can, and have , hosted meetings before.
<MrChrisDruif> 26, including me....but no responses
<phillw> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 20 20:08:07 2012 UTC.  The chair is phillw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<rafaellaguna> eey, said "bad" for me! :(
<phillw> hi, can all those here say /o
<phillw> (attendance record)
 * MrChrisDruif lurks
<rafaellaguna> o/
<phillw> lol - I always get that wrong, as well. (no such command)
<phillw> So, we have MrChrisDruif, bioterror, rafaellaguna only from Lubuntu?
<rafaellaguna> anybody from Ubuntu?
<rafaellaguna> this looks like Google+  :D
<phillw> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
 * phillw was detailed to provide a set of what a 'QA' admin was required to do.
<phillw> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing/Administrator
<phillw> this has been done.
<rafaellaguna> must we publish the results anywhere?
<phillw> As there are no notes posted from last weeks' meeting & this was dropped on me 2 minutes ago. I don't know if there were any other outstanding actions.
<phillw> rafaellaguna: for what?
<rafaellaguna> leadership
<phillw> rafaellaguna: let me change topic?
<rafaellaguna> sorry
<phillw> #topic QA Report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Report
<rafaellaguna> must we make it public?
<phillw> QA has been going well, there are some upcoming changes to the iso tracker that will make life of reporting / finding things easier
<phillw> rafaellaguna: please be patient?
<rafaellaguna> sorry again :|
<phillw> Julien expects the changes to the default applications to arrive either just before, or shortly after Alpha 2.
<phillw> They are doing a lot of work on this, so it should be fairly seemless integration into 12.10.
<phillw> I'm also hopeful that the ppc guys will have ffox back as the only available browser available to them (it's that or, go try find one).
<phillw> #topic IRC Team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: IRC Team
<phillw> Hi Unit193 can you give any knews?
<phillw> -k
<Unit193> What type you looking for? The OPs call went well enough, and mostly other thigns are going well.
<phillw> Unit193: a nil to report is always good :)
<Myrtti> channel access lists will be harmonized with Launchpad lists soonish, if not already in sync
<Myrtti> have had a few trolls, they've been taken care of
<phillw> thanks Myrtti
<phillw> #topic wiki / docs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: wiki / docs
<phillw> kanliot: what hae you to report?
<phillw> *have
<kanliot> going ok
<kanliot> changes coming up
<phillw> again, going okay is always good :)
<kanliot> going to rework the faq pages into the main lubuntu wiki
<kanliot> make it easy to find things
<kanliot> really not doing much collaberation
<MrChrisDruif> Last notice from the previous owner of that group on launchpad: kanliot has been made the new owner.
<phillw> thanks MrChrisDruif
<kanliot> done
<phillw> #topic Comms team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Comms team
<phillw> is this still dormant?
<phillw> yes.
<phillw> #topic artwork
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: artwork
<phillw> rafaellaguna: you have the floor!
<rafaellaguna> :D
<rafaellaguna> was just a question about leadership, if we have to notice anywhere
<rafaellaguna> it should be comm stuff, isn't it?
<rafaellaguna> important: the poll
<phillw> rafaellaguna: that will be later in the meeting. How is the artwork & wall paper stuff going for 12.10?
<rafaellaguna> we have space enough for up to 5 communit wallpapers
<rafaellaguna> but we have no participation (1 submission)
<rafaellaguna> any idea?
<kanliot> yes, i was wondering just how the winners are chosen
<rafaellaguna> kanlito: I can explain that
<Unit193> I'd say wait a few days, may get more.
<phillw> rafaellaguna: I can only suggest another call to the main mailing list, but we'll come back onto that in Any Other Business.
<kanliot> i consdered doing a sarcastic walpaper but i had no idea why it would be rejected
<rafaellaguna> *kanliot
<rafaellaguna> sarcasm violates the Ubuntu specs
<kanliot> oh really?
<rafaellaguna> if any phisic person is involved
<highvoltage> rafaellaguna: well, that's *just great*!
<kanliot> lol
<rafaellaguna> I get it :|
<phillw> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
<rafaellaguna> the resut will be decide by "all" the artwork team
<phillw> please raise your hands thus o/
<kanliot> o/
<phillw> sorry rafaellaguna, I moved your answer, I'll correct it later
<rafaellaguna> it's not my day :D
<phillw> kanliot: you have the floor, please keep it brief
<kanliot> oh you just said raise your hand
<kanliot> i thought we were voting on something
<phillw> rafaellaguna: this is my 4th meeting.
<kanliot> sorry go on
<phillw> kanliot: for AOB, it is raise your hand if you wish to speak :)
<phillw> rafaellaguna: of the day... I want them all to finish soon :D
<rafaellaguna> :D I know, anyway you're doing great
<phillw> So, a call for any other business, any thing that has not been covered, any topics you'd like for next time etc. et.c
<phillw> going once.....
<phillw> going twice .....
<Myrtti> rafaellaguna: you wanted to say something about leadership issues?
<phillw> speak now or forever hold your peace
<Myrtti> *now* is the time for that
<rafaellaguna> YES!
<rafaellaguna> I a bit lost about it
<phillw> thanks Myrtti I thought he'd never chime in :)
<phillw> rafaellaguna: please explain it how you see it at the moment
<rafaellaguna> we have a leader, a team coordinator or both?
<Unit193> The mailing list is a mess, but dev, forum, IRC, and artwork seem to still function well, just need to get the meetings working and it's set, no?  (As well as mailing list)
<rafaellaguna> Unit193: it seems so
<rafaellaguna> so there's no need for "elections"
<phillw> rafaellaguna: mailing lists, are mailing lists. If I were to be brutally honest, I'd have removed myself.
<phillw> same thing, month in, month out.
<rafaellaguna> phillw: :D
<phillw> but, let me give a different prospective.
<phillw> > The lack of leadership at the moment seems to be harming Lubuntu.
<phillw> I'm curious, what harm exactly ?
<phillw> It's not because people don't write on the ml or don't participate to the useless top posting debate that nothing is done in the background.
<phillw> Regards,
<phillw> Julien Lavergne
<Unit193> (Not all mailing lists are that bad, but I'm staying silent now)
<rafaellaguna> I think exactly the same, but you said (right) there's a lot of mess
<phillw> I remain on the Lubuntu-QA mailing list, we are getting along without this "spam", but, a general ML is for that.
<rafaellaguna> so we're fine
<kanliot> noise is one thing, confusion is another
<phillw> All sub teams have a ML, and we all know who we are.
<rafaellaguna> once purged the noise
<rafaellaguna> agree
<phillw> rafaellaguna: You may recall I actually checked on QA to ask why the silence was on it.... it was because they had nothing to report.
<rafaellaguna> like us, we're working "in background" but working
<phillw> I'd love to see that 'stuff' go to, say the area on face book that we have, but until they do. I just glance through the emails and, like facebook, see if there is anything worth replying to.
<phillw> I was, however, amused when they suggested new mailing list groups for areas :D
<rafaellaguna> yes, I saw
<Unit193> Please remember this is still during a meeting.
<phillw> I even answered
<kanliot> i'm not happy with the level of leadership
<phillw> Unit193: I see no reason for it be disbarred from A-O-B. in a meeting. It is the chance, on A-O-B for people to chat?
<kanliot> at the very least i want somone around, who gets to quote rules of the mailing list to other people
<phillw> but, with a complaint... those in favour of ending the meeting now, please vote as +1 (end) 0 (not bothered) -1 (keep meeting open)
<phillw> #vote
<meetingology> Please vote on:
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<rafaellaguna> +1
<phillw> 0
<phillw> anyone else care to vote?
<phillw> going once.....
<phillw> going twice ....
<phillw> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 20 20:45:52 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-20-20.08.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-20-20.08.html
<phillw> thanks everyone for attending.
<kanliot> thx for chairing
<rafaellaguna> thank you, phillw
<phillw> yvw, I
<Iowan> quiet meeting...
<CharlesA> Indeed.
<coffeecat> I'll have to go soon if it doesn't start. Gone midnight here.
<Iowan> Do we have a quorum? - me/you = not
<coffeecat> I think we need 4 FC for a quorum.
<Iowan> I posted a quick thread in SCC
<CharlesA> Thanks Iowan
<bkerensa> =o
<coffeecat> Iowan, CharlesA, could you pass on my apologies if anything ever happens? 00:30 here. I'm going.
<Iowan> Thanks for the attempt... I was afraid I had the wrong time.
<coffeecat> Definitely the correct time.
<Iowan> overdrank,  coffeecat was just leaving.
<overdrank> I heard sorry I am late
<Iowan> You aren't alone :)
<Iowan> Meeting hasn't started
<Iowan> ... but it may be finished
<Iowan> Looks like a reschedule is in order.
<overdrank> yep
<Iowan> It's family night @ Scout camp. I gotta go get ready for program.
<overdrank> have fun
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-21
<dholbach> o/
<pleia2> o/
<Gwaihir> o/
<dholbach> Do we have anyone from the Forums Council here? :)
<Iowan> o/
 * Iowan nudges coffeecat
<YokoZar> Good morning then :)
<coffeecat> I'm here
<dholbach> pleia2, Gwaihir, YokoZar: can anyone of you chair? I might have to run a bit early
<Gwaihir> I'm not sure if I will be here 'till the end too... :-/
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 21 17:04:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pleia2> #topic Forums Council check in
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Forums Council check in
<YokoZar> Beat me to it pleia2 :)
<dholbach> welcome Iowan and coffeecat :)
<Iowan> thanks!
<coffeecat> Thanks!
<dholbach> How are you doing? How's life on the Forums? :)
<pleia2> this is pretty informal, just checking in to see if there are any issues, conerns, good news :)
<YokoZar> Still alive and kicking I presume ;) (emphasis on the kicking)
<Iowan> Still having hardware issues, spammers, and anxiously awaiting upgrade
<coffeecat> Agreed - issue no 1 is for upgrade to v4
<pleia2> still coordinating that with Canonical IS? any blockers we need to help with?
<dholbach> I haven't checked into any of the tickets recently, what's the status of the update?
<coffeecat> Still stuck with SSO as a blocker I believe.
<CharlesA> That was the last I saw as well, coffeecat
<coffeecat> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=16733#txn-167266
<Iowan> I'm not well versed on requirements, so dunno what issues there may be
<coffeecat> This is a real concern. We cannot institue effctive anti-spam measures until the upgrade.
<pleia2> well, it looks like there is activity on the ticket which is recent, so that's a plus
 * pleia2 nods
<coffeecat> There's been "recent activity" for > 1 year!
<dholbach> it seems the last update was about the license of the sso plugin
<dholbach> but that should be possible to find out, no?
<pleia2> coffeecat: I'm trying to look at it from where we can offer help :) we can give a nudge if it's been stale for a long time but it's more difficult for us to insist that they work faster
<pleia2> I do sympathize with spam being a major problem though
<coffeecat> Playing Devil's Advocate here. As far as I can tell, the only person who wants SSO is Mark S. :)
<Iowan> pleia2:  "demands" will probably have negative results.
<YokoZar> Is the intent to have only SSO logins then?
<YokoZar> Or does the spam control come from elsewhere
<coffeecat> That wouodn't be feasible. Staff have to relogin conventionally before being able to do staff actrions.
<coffeecat> The spam control we need is a plugin which is only compatible with v4 Vbulletin.
<Iowan> There is a plugin to use the StopForumSpam database
<pleia2> what percentage of admin time would you say is being spent handling spam now?
<Iowan> It's what I do most of he time - and I miss 75%
<Iowan> (or more)
<coffeecat> I personally spent 2-4 hours per day for 14 days finding and banning toxic email domains.
<Iowan> my connection keeps me from banning more than 200/day
<coffeecat> :)
<dholbach> is anyone liaising with the folks in #canonical-sysadmin directly most of the time?
<pleia2> wow, that's unpleasant
<Iowan> dholbach:  Iim not - I'm still underqualified in that area
<dholbach> right now I think it might just help to join the channel and ask if anyone found out what the license of the plugin is
<dholbach> just to keep things moving
<dholbach> or to investigate themselves - there must be a mention of the license of the software somewhere on the web
<dholbach> How are things looking apart from the issues mentioned earlier? What are the busiest parts of the forums right now? :)
<coffeecat> One thing that ought to be widely known. Kudos to Mike Basinger for his work on retheming the forum > Ubuntu branding.
<Iowan> Gotta admit, I haven't looked around lately - I tend to frequent the networking section
<coffeecat> It lloks really fresh now - a pleasure to use. :)
<CharlesA> Same Iowan, except I frequenty the Security, Server and Virtualization areas.
<CharlesA> +1 coffeecat
<coffeecat> Most sections are as busy or otherwise as always. I tend to frequent Beginners. There's a steady stream of newbies needing help.
<CharlesA> Yep.
<pleia2> oh yeah, technoviking's theme is great
<dholbach> Compared to the past, did you have to resolve conflict as a council a lot in the last time? Or are things pretty calm right now?
<Iowan> SEEMS pretty calm, ATM
<CharlesA> Don't jinx it. :p
<Iowan> (too late)
<coffeecat> :)
<dholbach> CharlesA, sure won't - just asking :)
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> oh, I love s-fox's monthly updates :)
<dholbach> Did you approve Ubuntu members in the last few months?
<Iowan> last month...
<Iowan> this month's meeting got "delayed"
<dholbach> but you still have folks who are interested in becoming members - that's great then :)
<Iowan> Curioulsy, we've had a couple ask to have membership removed :(
<dholbach> wow
<dholbach> did they give any reason?
<coffeecat> There's three pending approval. Three approved in May and 6 in March if I'm reading things correctly.
<pleia2> they should be able to deactivate themselves
<Iowan> One was losing interest in Linux in general, another seemed to think membership carried participation obligations
<dholbach> ok
<pleia2> ah, it doesn't require any participation obligations (people can even renew without being very active)
<YokoZar> That's an interesting thing to happen
<pleia2> but I see people get confused about it often
<Iowan> pleia2:  I THINK we finally got that explained.
<pleia2> that's good :)
<Iowan> (for now)
<pleia2> I tend to tell people it's a recognition of "good work done" rather than the promise of full time committment forever
<dholbach> Ok, I will have to run now, but I think I asked all the questions I personally had. I wish you all the best! Keep up the good work everyone! :)
<pleia2> of course we want people to stay active, but life and things come in, as long as you care enough to renew, that's some amount of caring
<coffeecat> Many thanks, dholbach ! :)
<Iowan> +1
<pleia2> I think he asked all the questions I had too, anything else you guys would like to add?
<Iowan> Nothing in particulat - what an FC do for YOU?
<YokoZar> :)
<pleia2> nothing really, we just like to check in to make sure all is running smoothly :)
<pleia2> I'll read the ticket more thoroughly to see if there is anything we can do or suggest at this point
<Iowan> Thanks for support!
<YokoZar> Could the v4 upgrade happen without SSO and then SSO happen at a later time?
<coffeecat> pleia2, thanks for that. Don't think we're ungrateful to the sysadmins.
<coffeecat> YokoZar, YES. That's what most of the staff want, I believe.
<pleia2> YokoZar: sabdfl has made it pretty clear that he wants SSO in this upgrade
<YokoZar> Yes but if the upgrade is blocking on SSO and SSO is a mark thing then talking to Mark about it is the prudent thing to do
<coffeecat> There's another point - security. V4 is going to be more secure than V3. We've already had a minor upgrade because of a very worrying security issue.
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> well, we'll see what we can do to help
<YokoZar> Yeah.  I'm inclined to advocate going forward without SSO unless it's imminent anyway...knowing software can be "due out next week" for decades ;)
<pleia2> thanks for coming FC folks, we appreciate that the timing wasn't very convenient for many of you
<YokoZar> For sure.
<Iowan> Thanks for opportunity to chat - time to head back to salt mine.
<pleia2> #topic IRC Council poll
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: IRC Council poll
<YokoZar> Time zones are the usual excuse, but we all know some of us are on a time zone far different from where the position of the sun would indicate ;)
<coffeecat> Many thanks too. The invitation is much appreciated. And thanks for your understanding of our concersn about the upgrade.
<pleia2> we'll be closing the poll of the IRC Members for the spot on the IRC Council in about 30 minutes, once it's closed the CC will review the poll and make an announcement to the IRC folks about their new council member
<YokoZar> All right then
<pleia2> then they'll be back to a fully staffed council :)
<YokoZar> Who's actually closing the poll then?
<pleia2> I am
<YokoZar> Excellent :)
<pleia2> no other updates there really
<pleia2> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<pleia2> quick reminder, CoC review is still pending and we don't want it to get too stale, so CC members should peer at the etherpad so we can determine what else we have left to fix
<pleia2> I think that's all I have
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to upate minutes and wiki
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to upate minutes and wiki
<pleia2> can someone from the CC volunteer to chair next meeting (I really can't be doing this during work), and someone to email the DMB to make sure they can attend the next meeting?
<YokoZar> pleia2: does the pad include my branch?
<pleia2> YokoZar: it's the one we discussed on the G+ hangout last week, I don't know
<YokoZar> Ok, I'll follow up on that
<pleia2> err, not hangout, we did that on IRC
<YokoZar> and maybe update again
<YokoZar> I'll get next meeting chair
<pleia2> great, thanks
<YokoZar> since, well, I think it's just you and me atm
<YokoZar> :D
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> ok, I'll mail the list to find a chair for next week, and I can email the DMB later
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to email the DMB about next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to email the DMB about next meeting
<YokoZar> I can chair next meeting
<pleia2> oh good
<pleia2> next meeting is on July 5th
<pleia2> I'm going to be traveling, so won't make it
<pleia2> #action YokoZar to chair next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: YokoZar to chair next meeting
<pleia2> ok, I think that's it
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 21 17:40:19 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-21-17.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-21-17.04.html
<reavengrey> wasssssuuuuuuuppppp
<reavengrey> huehuehue
<rye> aha, so it is #ubuntu-meeting, not #ubuntu-meetings, fixing the wiki. Morning/Evening!
<reavengrey> sup sup
<lynxman> ello everyone o/
<rye> lynxman: hello!
<reavengrey> priming up for the big oobontoo meeting huehuehue
<trinikrono> o/
<trinikrono> goodluck to you guys
<trinichica> Hey best of luck to everyone
 * greg-g waves
<s-fox> 4 minutes until the ubuntu membership meeting
<rye> trinichica: thank you! /me grepping through the logs to see what it is like here
<IdleOne> rye, torture, to put it simply
<greg-g> just mild torture
<IdleOne> You all ready?
<reavengrey> ohhhh man
<reavengrey> eavesdropping on an EPIC MEETING
<reavengrey> #ubuntu-meeting 2012!
<rye> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards/TeamReports does not exist
<mfisch> curious why it will be epic
<trinichica> your all welcome :)
 * reavengrey is moderately lulzing about basically >.>
<IdleOne> #STARTMEETING
<reavengrey> autobots assemble...
<greg-g> rye: yes, there haven't been any since the realignment of the boards (from regions to timezones)
<s-fox> it is lower case IdleOne  ;)
<IdleOne> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 21 22:01:20 2012 UTC.  The chair is IdleOne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<s-fox> see :D
 * iulian waves.
 * mfisch waves
<IdleOne> ok so who is here from the board?
<s-fox> o/
<greg-g> o/
<cjohnston> o/
<IdleOne> o/
 * hggdh pays attention now
<IdleOne> alright lets get this party started
<metasansana> woot
<IdleOne> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 22:00 UTC meeting for June 21, 2012. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<IdleOne> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<IdleOne> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<IdleOne> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<IdleOne> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<IdleOne> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<IdleOne> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant is rye
<IdleOne> rye, introduce yourself :)
<greg-g> hi there rye
<iulian> I.e. the stage is all yours, rye.
<rye> Hello, I am Roman Yepishev, currently working on Ubuntu One projects and had been using Ubuntu for last 9 years.
<rye> The last 3 of which I have actually started to understand the value of the community in such a project.
<IdleOne> rye, please provide LP link and wiki link
<rye> My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RomanYepishev and launchpad profile is https://launchpad.net/~rye. To some I may be known by indicator-ubuntuone project
<cjohnston> yay for that
<iulian> rye: Are you sure it's 9 years? That's a bit too much, isn't it?
<rye> wait, 2006
<mfisch> that would 6 six years
<rye> iulian: 9 years of linux experience, 6 years of Ubuntu, you are right
<greg-g> heh, 2012 - 9 = 2003, pre even no-name-yet.com :)
<iulian> rye: Oh, OK.
<greg-g> rye: is there an Ubuntu Ukraine LoCo team?
<rye> Apart from counting dates poorely I have been extremely active (well, by my standards) during 12.04 release where I kept testing Ubuntu on every machine I had in posession leading to quite a few early fixed bugs that I am personally proud about.
<greg-g> that's awesome
<cjohnston> I'm proud of the indicator for you :-)
<rye> greg-g: There is not a formal one, a disperse "community" primarily active on the web site of linux.org.ua. Upon my recent visit to OSDN.ua (open source development conference) last year I was the craziest ubuntu person there
<greg-g> haha :)
<greg-g> do you think there is an oppotunity for someone to take the reigns of a Ubuntu-UA and make it work?
<rye> What means that I was asking people about how they feel about the latest release and all that.
<IdleOne> #voters s-fox greg-g cjohnston IdleOne PabloRubianes
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: PabloRubianes
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne PabloRubianes cjohnston greg-g s-fox
<hggdh> IdleOne: do not forget me
<IdleOne> ok
<rye> greg-g: I think that can be done. I have had several presentations of Ubuntu (CouchDB and Ubuntu One) in local internet center which had gathered some interested people so I guess that may be an interesting task to pursue
<IdleOne> #voters s-fox greg-g cjohnston IdleOne PabloRubianes hggdh iulian
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne PabloRubianes cjohnston greg-g hggdh iulian s-fox
<greg-g> rye: cool, let me know if you need any help/guidance with that (or if you try to get someone else to do it)
<IdleOne> #vote Approve rye for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve rye for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<greg-g> +1 # and unofficially thanks for all the help trying to get my files back in U1
<meetingology> +1 # and unofficially thanks for all the help trying to get my files back in U1 received from greg-g
<hggdh> I like the work on bug reporting (and fixing)
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<iulian> +0 from me at the moment. The main reason is that you've got no testimonials.
<meetingology> +0 from me at the moment. The main reason is that you've got no testimonials. received from iulian
<iulian> I would've really liked to see some.
<s-fox> agreed on bug reporting :)
<IdleOne> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve rye for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<IdleOne> Congrats rye
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, rye !
<s-fox> congratulations rye  :D
<hggdh> rye: welcome in. Please do keep the good work
<reavengrey> You are now an illuminati...
<greg-g> and seriously, thanks for your hard work on my stupid U1 file disappearing problem ;)
<IdleOne> ok next person is going to be nspirit
<rye> iulian: I will ask for testimonials because, yes, it is not really visible that somebody actually knows (or have seen) me
<IdleOne> nspirit here?
<iulian> rye: Brilliant. Thanks.
<IdleOne> Going once...
<IdleOne> Twice...
<hggdh> as a rule of thumb for candidates: testimonials help a lot
<IdleOne> sold
<IdleOne> Next... rubylaser you are up. Please introduce yourself
<s-fox> rubylaser ?
<rubylaser> Hi, I'm Zack Reed.  I've been on Debian/Ubuntu since Debian Woody.  I love open source and I am a very active member on the Ubuntu Forums
<IdleOne> rubylaser, link us to LP and wiki please.
<rubylaser> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/reed-zack LP: https://launchpad.net/~reed-zack
<IdleOne> rubylaser, Do you have anybody here to support you "in person"
<IdleOne> ?
<iulian> rubylaser: What are your future plans for Ubuntu?
<rubylaser> I asked CharlesA and a few other forum members to attend, I but don't see any of them in the channel :/
<reavengrey> I'm thinking firmware rootkits to prevent lesser things like archlinux and OS/X from booting, shipped with release 12.10, idk if you guys are into that
<rubylaser> I would love to see Ubuntu's use continue to grow especially in the corporate environment (where I work).
<s-fox> rubylaser,  you contributions seem to be forums based, perhaps it would be easier for you to gain membership via the forum council ?
<cjohnston> ccccccbfuigdnjnkjndbveilinulnkrtvteeebjcljtl
<greg-g> cjohnston: nice yubikey password? ;)
<cjohnston> thank the four year ol
<cjohnston> old
<rubylaser> @s-fox:  That is true.  Most of my contributions are in the Forums
<meetingology> rubylaser: Error: "s-fox:" is not a valid command.
<IdleOne> #vote Approve rubylaser for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve rubylaser for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<rubylaser> That is true. Â Most of my contributions are in the Forums
<s-fox> +0 I would advise you apply via the forums.
<meetingology> +0 I would advise you apply via the forums. received from s-fox
<nspirit> I am very sorry for being late, my internet connection is very bad
<IdleOne> +0 I believe going the forums route is probably best
<meetingology> +0 I believe going the forums route is probably best received from IdleOne
<s-fox> nspirit,  no worries :)  we noticed you come in
<hggdh> +0 I cannot see much in terms of contribution, sorry
<meetingology> +0 I cannot see much in terms of contribution, sorry received from hggdh
<cjohnston> +0 I agree about applying to the forums
<meetingology> +0 I agree about applying to the forums received from cjohnston
<PabloRubianes> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from PabloRubianes
<iulian> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from iulian
<IdleOne> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve rubylaser for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:6
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<rubylaser> well, that looks like it does it.  Thanks for your time.
<greg-g> rubylaser: please do go via the forums board
<s-fox> sorry rubylaser , but we wish you well with the forums council :)
<IdleOne> +1 ^
<hggdh> rubylaser: please consider applying via forums; also please expand the wiki
<greg-g> we're just not equipped to review your work as effectively as them
<bkerensa> rubylaser: dont be discouraged
<IdleOne> Next is nspirit, please introduce yourself and provide links to LP and wiki.
<rubylaser> Thanks for the pick me up :)
<nspirit> My name is Nadeen from Egypt, 20 years old. Student at faculty of computers and informatics
<nspirit> my wiki page -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nadeen-spirit
<nspirit> https://launchpad.net/~nadeen-spirit
<nspirit> and LP
<iulian> nspirit: What is it that you do in Ubuntu?
<nspirit> I am trying hard to spread Ubuntu anywhere
<greg-g> nspirit: what kinds of things do you do with the Egypt LoCo?
<greg-g> awesome photos
<nspirit> I am a member with them, helps other online to solve other problem, and make release party and workshop after being member
<greg-g> great
<IdleOne> I am ready to vote
<iulian> IdleOne: Go for it.
<nspirit> greg-g thanks :)
<IdleOne> #vote Approve nspirit for Ubuntu mebership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve nspirit for Ubuntu mebership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> i am ready to vote also
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<IdleOne> +1 keep up the great work :)
<meetingology> +1 keep up the great work :) received from IdleOne
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<s-fox> +1 # great work with the loco :)
<meetingology> +1 # great work with the loco :) received from s-fox
<hggdh> +1 please keep on nspirit!
<meetingology> +1 please keep on nspirit! received from hggdh
<IdleOne> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve nspirit for Ubuntu mebership
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cjohnston> Congrats nspirit
<PabloRubianes> congrats nspirit nice work
<IdleOne> Congratulations nspirit and welcome!
<hggdh> welcome in!
<greg-g> oops, +1 from me after the fact
<s-fox> welcome :D
<nspirit> Thanks all :)
<greg-g> congrats and welcom, nspirit !
<s-fox> balloons you around? you're up
 * balloons is present
<balloons> and inflated :-)
<IdleOne> next up we have balloons
<hggdh> heh
<nspirit> Thank you  s-fox
<cjohnston> lol
<IdleOne> balloons, shoot!
 * s-fox resists temptation to get pin out ;)
<balloons> Hello, my name is Nicholas Skaggs. Currently, I serve as a part of the community team for Canonical with a focus on QA. My goal is to see ubuntu become a leader in quality among open source projects. I began using linux about the same time as ubuntu was beginning as a project. I found debian, and then ubuntu. It's been running on my machines ever since. My wiki page https://launchpad.net/~nskaggs and lp page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/balloons
<IdleOne> balloons, you have some very impressive testimonials :)
<cjohnston> balloons has taken alot of time to help me out personally, and I know he does it for others as well
<hggdh> very nice testimonials
<s-fox> +1 testimonials
<greg-g> :)
<balloons> thank you :-)
 * iulian pops some balloons.
 * hggdh resists the urge to cheer for balloons
 * iulian is ready to vote.
<s-fox> me too
<IdleOne> #vote Approve ballons for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve ballons for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<cjohnston> +1 even though he comes to my house and eats my pizza
<meetingology> +1 even though he comes to my house and eats my pizza received from cjohnston
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<s-fox> +1 #great community interview the other month :)
<meetingology> +1 #great community interview the other month :) received from s-fox
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<hggdh> +1 # thank you for all your wirk, balloons
<meetingology> +1 # thank you for all your wirk, balloons received from hggdh
<iulian> cjohnston: Haha!
<IdleOne> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve ballons for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<hggdh> s/wirk/work/ of course, dyslexia
<balloons> cjohnston, and I'll do it again to when quantal comes out :-)
<IdleOne> Congrats balloons , well deserved.
<iulian> cjohnston: You should've told me earlier!
<hggdh> BALLOONS BALLONS BALLONS
<balloons> thank you.. I'm very excitied!
<trinikrono> \o/
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, balloons !
<PabloRubianes> well done balloons
<balloons> you should see the smile
<cjohnston> What's a ballon?
<s-fox> congratulations balloons :)
 * hggdh calms down again
<s-fox> mfisch,  are you here? :)
<mfisch> here
<IdleOne> mfisch, GO.
<mfisch> My name is Matt Fischer, I've been using Ubuntu for several years now
<hggdh> a ballons is a dyslexia hit
<mfisch> For my day job I work at Canonical, working with OEMs to ship Ubuntu on a variety of systems.
<mfisch> here are links before I continue: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MattFischer
<mfisch> https://launchpad.net/~mfisch
<mfisch> In my spare time, I've been working on triaging (Bug Control), bug fixes (in several areas, including lightdm).
<mfisch> 've also worked to help people package things, including Ubuntu Accomplishments and written a Unity lens for stock quotes.
<greg-g> mfisch: do you live near a LoCo team? (sorry if I missed your location on your pages)
<mfisch> greg-g: yes, I'm in the Colorado LoCo, but it's not terribly active other than the mailing list
<hggdh> mfisch: just a small correction, you have 15 years of Linux, not of Ubuntu
<mfisch> yes
<mfisch> same problem rye had ;)
<greg-g> mfisch: /me nods
<hggdh> :-)
<IdleOne> mfisch, anybody here to cheer you on?
<mfisch> fixed!
<mfisch> not that I know of, just the testimonials
<IdleOne> They look good btw
<iulian> Indeed. That'd be enough for me. I'm ready to vote.
<hggdh> yep
<nspirit> congrats balloons :)
<IdleOne> #vote Approve mfisch for ubuntu mebership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve mfisch for ubuntu mebership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<IdleOne> +1 Thanks for the awesome work.
<s-fox> +1 #very impressed with application :)
<meetingology> +1 Thanks for the awesome work. received from IdleOne
<meetingology> +1 #very impressed with application :) received from s-fox
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<IdleOne> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve mfisch for ubuntu mebership
<meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<mfisch> hooray
<balloons> to you as well nspirit! I love seeing and hearing about people all over the world using ubuntu
<IdleOne> Congrats and welcome
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, mfisch !
<s-fox> congratulations#
<mfisch> thanks
<s-fox> lynxman,  are you here? :)
<lynxman> ello o/
<IdleOne> moving on to lynxman, please introduce yourself
<lynxman> Hi everyone o/ I'm Marc Cluet I've been running Ubuntu since hardy and any form of Linux since 1.2.13
<lynxman> Wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lynxman and LP https://launchpad.net/~lynxman
<lynxman> I've been quite active on the server side since natty, carrying a lot of work on mcollective, mcollective-plugins, rabbitmq-server, puppet, cloudfoundry and swift
<lynxman> I've also been an active code contributor to cloud-init
<lynxman> I've been also involved with juju from the beginning I'm one of the first juju charmers
<lynxman> I've been also doing bug triaging (seldomly) helping the Server Team on it
<lynxman> And I've also organised the keysign parties for the last two UDS on my own (to a varied degree of success)
<lynxman> (that's all I can think of right now)
<IdleOne> doesn't seem like you do very much really :P
<lynxman> IdleOne: I change contexts way too much :)
<bkerensa> lynxman does good work in the Juju community he is how I found out about Juju
<lynxman> bkerensa: thanks o/
<IdleOne> thank you bkerensa
<bkerensa> anyone who can evangelize Juju in front of a crowd of hardcore Puppet fans gets me +1 :)
<IdleOne> lynxman, do you do anything with your loco?
<lynxman> IdleOne: I attend regularly to release parties
<lynxman> IdleOne: I've also attended to Loco meetings in Montreal
<IdleOne> lynxman, have we met?
<lynxman> IdleOne: it could really be :)
<IdleOne> heh.
<IdleOne> ready to vote?
<hggdh> ready
<s-fox> me too
<IdleOne> #vote Approve lynxman for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve lynxman for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<iulian> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from iulian
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<hggdh> +1 # and Clint's testimonial is the real breaker here (a nod to bkerensa also)
<meetingology> +1 # and Clint's testimonial is the real breaker here (a nod to bkerensa also) received from hggdh
<greg-g> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from greg-g
<IdleOne> +1 has nothing to do with lynxman now owing me a beer
<meetingology> +1 has nothing to do with lynxman now owing me a beer received from IdleOne
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<lynxman> IdleOne: :D
<iulian> Heh.
<IdleOne> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve lynxman for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<greg-g> congrats and welcome, lynxman
<lynxman> thank you :D o/
<hggdh> welcome in lynxman
<IdleOne> Congrats and welcome
<cjohnston> yay
<mfisch> should we clean up the wiki page by removing our names?
<IdleOne> Next up we have trinikrono, please intro yourself
<trinikrono> Good Evening Everyone, my name is Kurt Belgrave and i hail from the caribbean islands called trinidad and tobago. I started to use ubuntu in 2009 and decided to get invovled in the community in 2010.
<IdleOne> mfisch, thanks for volunteering to do that :)
<trinikrono> this is my wikipage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/trinikrono
<mfisch> d'oh!
<mfisch> IdleOne: remove everyone from this time slot?
<trinikrono> and LP https://launchpad.net/~trinikrono
<IdleOne> mfisch, yeah, soon as we are done.
<trinikrono> basically i am pushing Ubuntu in my country and moving to help other caribbean islands
<s-fox> let's finish the meeting before we edit the wiki ;)
<trinikrono> with there LoCo teams also
<mfisch> (sorry I made one change already)
<iulian> trinikrono: How is it going so far?
<trinikrono> well it is going great as far i am concerned, since when i started it was me alone
<greg-g> trinikrono: it seems like there is some activity in the LoCo, based on the events and web accounts, do you have any plans on going to Approved LoCo status in the future?
<trinikrono> and now i have people in the launchpad team and in a facebook group
<iulian> trinikrono: How many are you now, roughly?
<trinikrono> there are some issues with exposure down here as people arent used to open source projects
 * greg-g nods
<trinikrono> but i am getting lots of help
<iulian> Right. That's good.
<trinikrono> between 10-20 in the team
<Xai> count me in
<Xai> i'll write the tests
<trinikrono> but the facebook group has a lot more members
 * reavengrey is from Trinidad and Tobago
<metasansana> me too :/
<trinichica> Me too
<reavengrey> I recently got to know about trinikrono 's efforts through another channel locally, which is a cyber cafe run by another very active ubuntu enthusiast
<greg-g> interesting
<reavengrey> Who has been doing ubuntu server installations all across the island
<Xai> trinikrono: you look diff in your wiki compared to here in irc
<reavengrey> As of now
<greg-g> do you all have a loco irc channel?
<metasansana> ubuntu tt is the only software movement seeing any success
<trinikrono> yes it is #ubuntu-tt
<reavengrey> Yes, #ubuntu-tt
<reavengrey> Kurt is very driven, and he has a lot of enthusiasm which I found very interesting
<trinikrono> yes we have some interesting things to get the irc going
<palladin35y> me too
<trinichica> Trinikrono is the best at Ubuntu Community support not only in Trinidad and Tobago but in the entire Caribbean. He currently helps the Ubuntu team in Dominica and even yesterday he hosted a meeting at the first Ubuntu Internet cafe in Trinidad that he helped grow. :) With his support others and myself got lots of help to use this OS and contribute
<Xai> Xai: is from trini
<trinikrono> thanks guys
<greg-g> :)
<IdleOne> #vote Approve trinikrono for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve trinikrono for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Xai> i wish i could have been there yesterday
<palladin35y> kurt worked with driving to help and bring other people the group
<hggdh> +1 # nice cheering, BTW
<meetingology> +1 # nice cheering, BTW received from hggdh
<s-fox> +1 #good to see so much support
<meetingology> +1 #good to see so much support received from s-fox
<IdleOne> +1 nice to see so many people come here to cheer for you.
<greg-g> +1 great work getting a loco going, keep it up and I would love to see Ubuntu TT at a LoCo Council meeting in the future!
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 nice to see so many people come here to cheer for you. received from IdleOne
<meetingology> +1 great work getting a loco going, keep it up and I would love to see Ubuntu TT at a LoCo Council meeting in the future! received from greg-g
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<Xai> +1
<reavengrey> gzzzzz
<PabloRubianes> +1 the cheers did it
<meetingology> +1 the cheers did it received from PabloRubianes
<metasansana> like
<metasansana> +1
<trinichica> :D
<trinichica> +1
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<trinikrono> greg-g: i came the one yesterday!
<reavengrey> He's very eager about the whole local LoCo team pretty much
<IdleOne> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve trinikrono for Ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<palladin35y> nice
<greg-g> awesome, congrats and welcome, trinikrono !
<trinikrono> thank you so much
<metasansana> one small step for a man
<IdleOne> Congrats trinikrono and welcome. keep up the good work, hope to see ubuntu-tt become an official loco
<trinikrono> you have no idea what this means for me
<s-fox> :)
<Xai> Hip Hip ............
<trinikrono> and hello hggdh :D
<PabloRubianes> trinikrono, congrats and keep the work to make ubuntu-tt official
<s-fox> congratulations trinichica
<cjohnston> Congrats to everyone who is now an Ubuntu Member tonight
<s-fox> trinikrono,
<s-fox> lol
<hggdh> trinikrono: hi, and we miss you on #ubuntu-bugs ;-)
<trinikrono> i am really trying to teach them bug triage
<trinikrono> i just got back internet so you will see me alot more now
<reavengrey> Gl and hf all
<IdleOne> Alright folks so that was the first 22:00 UTC meeting. Thanks for coming and see you next time. Congrats to all.
<palladin35y> yeah
 * mfisch now edits the wiki page
<s-fox> Welll I am going back to bed now, thank you for all coming and congrats to our new members
<IdleOne> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 21 22:55:56 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-21-22.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-21-22.01.html
<trinichica> Cheers
<trinichica> Congratulations trinikrono
<greg-g> thanks for coming, everyone, and congrats to all the new members!
<hggdh> thank you IdleOne, and thanks to all that came in
<IdleOne> Thank you.
<palladin35y> congrats
<trinikrono> o/
<metasansana> I like pie
<rye> thank you everybody!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-22
 * skaet waves
<arosales> hello
<mdeslaur> hello!
<tumbleweed> hi
<Daviey> o/
<brendand> hi!
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jun 22 15:00:39 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
<popey> o/
<skaet> welcome.  :)
<skaet> Upcoming dates:
<skaet> 2012/06/25 - Alpha 2 candidate images start
<skaet> 2012/06/28 - Alpha 2
<skaet> 2012/07/05 - DebianImportFreeze
<skaet> .
<skaet> Work Items:
<skaet> 2012/06/22 - 2926 (was 2627 last week) : trending behind where we should be on burndown line.
<skaet> Please help get us back where we should be by making sure https://launchpad.net/~/+upcomingwork is up to date for your tasks.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs:
<skaet> Quantal: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<skaet> 12.04.1:http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> .
<skaet> Weekly Status Received:
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001401.html- ogasawara (use email for questions)
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001412.html - hw cert: brendand
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001420.html - lubuntu: gilir
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001422.html - security: mdeslaurs
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001432.html - desktop: seb128:
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001433.html - manual testing: balloons
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001434.html - ubuntu one: joshuahoover
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001435.html - edubuntu :stgraber
<skaet> ** 2100 UTC - due time ^ Thank you to those who submitted on time **
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001440.html - linaro: fabo
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001441.html - Kubuntu: Riddell
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001442.html - Unity: popey
<skaet> I've still missed a few late incoming reports,  please feel free to paste them in to the record, as we go along.
<arosales> apologies Server was a little late @
<arosales> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001449.html
<arosales> ..
<astraljava> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001398.html - astraljava
<skaet> :)  thanks arosales.  :)
<astraljava> ..
<skaet> and astraljava,  :)
<ogra_> foundations too ...
<jibel> QA https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001445.html
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001450.html
<skaet> Thanks guys!
<Riddell> hi
<skaet> ok,  will try to get through them as well, while we go through the Q&A part,  but may need to be following up on email list after.
<skaet> #topic  Comments and Questions.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Comments and Questions.
<skaet> please 'o/' when you have a new question.   '..' when you're finished with the current topic under discussion.
<skaet> status.ubuntu.com trendlines were reset last friday.  If you spot any that were missed,  please ping me after the meeting directly.
 * skaet marks that action done ;)
<skaet> To help people have visibility into the work item tasks and bugs they're assigned to, there is now a new launchpad view available.    try:  https://launchpad.net/~/+upcomingwork   Thank you to the linaro team for getting this change in launchpad!   if you don't see a workitem in the list,  please talk to the blueprint approver and make sure the blueprint is assigned to a milestone.
<skaet> ..
<Daviey> \o/
<skaet> :)
<arosales> +1
<skaet> and some other news,  that's going to be of interest as we head into A2 ...
<skaet> The bug workflow we'll be trying out this cycle has been sorted out.   We'll be using the tag "rls-q-incoming" to signal a bug needs to be looked at by the development teams for inclusion in the release.
<skaet> These nominated incoming bugs can be found: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-incoming-bug-tasks.html.   Goal here is to keep this report as empty as possible.
<skaet> The bugs that the development teams are committed to fixing can be found here:
<skaet> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<skaet> (no incoming tag, and targetted to quantal gets a bug on this list)
<skaet> For those bugs targetted to quantal that there isn't a plan in place to fix, the tag 'rls-q-notfixing' will be on the bug,  and they'll show up in:
<skaet> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-notfixing-bug-tasks.html
<skaet> Questions?
<skaet> ..
<Riddell> alpha 2 next week?
<skaet> please feel free to start a discussion about any questions on it,  in #ubuntu-release.
<skaet> Riddell,  yup A2 is next week.
<Riddell> who's the tech driver?
<skaet> <skaet> 2012/06/25 - Alpha 2 candidate images start
<skaet> <skaet> 2012/06/28 - Alpha 2
<skaet> Riddell,  Daviey is tech driver this time around
<Riddell> tsk that's what I get for being 2 minutes late
<skaet> :)
<skaet> Riddell, you ok with using the bug flow as outlined for Kubuntu?
<skaet> We still need a mechanism,  so that the flavors and upstream projects are able to denote which bugs they are committing to fix, if they can't assign to the series directly.   For Kubuntu, Edubuntu I think this is not an issue.   For Unity, Lubuntu, Mythbuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Xubuntu - you ok with using a tag?
<skaet> gilir, scott-work, astraljava, superm1, popey any preferences or alternate suggestions?
<Riddell> skaet: rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html ?  I need to read up on it
<skaet> Riddell,  fair enough.
<skaet> #ubuntu-release for discussion after the meeting then.
<astraljava> Tags are fine with me.
<astraljava> ..
<popey> nope
<highvoltage> yeah in Edubuntu it works pretty much assigning edubuntu-dev and a milestone to indicate a commitment to fix it.
<highvoltage> s/pretty much/pretty well/g
<Riddell> we tag with kubuntu and milestone it generally
<skaet> astraljava,  popey,  ok - I'll come up with a proposal and circulate it via the ubuntu-release  mail list.
<skaet> Riddell,  so we'd be asking you to series target it,  in addition.
<Riddell> skaet: makes sense
<skaet> thanks!
<skaet> we can figure out the plan there.
<skaet> ..
<brendand> o/
<skaet> go brendand
<brendand> i'd just like to mention that this bug is causing us a bit of pain at the moment: https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013843
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013843 in casper (Ubuntu Quantal) "resolv.conf empty when doing PXE installations" [Undecided,New]
<stgraber> brendand: it's on my todo
<brendand> stgraber, thanks
<skaet> ..
<skaet> and going on to the other news that's emerging....
<skaet> stgraber - can you give an overview of the changes with the new version of ISO tracker?  what should folks expect?
<stgraber> So, I've spent quite a bit of time over the past month or so implementing some new features in the QA tracker.
<stgraber> The biggest change is the introduction of the testcase management changes, this introduces the concept of testsuites into the tracker as well as testcase revisions.
<stgraber> The actual text of the testcases is now stored in the tracker including any history. Test results are linked to a specific revision of a testcase.
<stgraber> Testcases are now put into testsuites that can then be linked to products on a per-series basis. A testcase can be in multiple testsuites and products can have multiple linked testsuites per series.
<stgraber> That's for the core testcase management stuff.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> On top of that, the UI was slightly improved, showing the past reported bugs (on a per milestone, product and testcase basis) in the result reporting form, making it easier for tests to pick previous bugs.
<stgraber> It's also now possible to add bug reporting instructions for every product. A link was also added to the various testcases to report a bug against a testcase and a similar link exists in the main menu to report a bug against the tracker.
<stgraber> A new build status "ready" has been introduced, letting the product managers sign off on a specific build.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> ACLs have been improved, introduction a new "testcase management" role allowing members to update testsuites and testcases.
<stgraber> On top of that, a new "product management" role has also been added, allowing us to delegate sign-off, result management and build management on a per-product basis (useful for flavours).
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> And less visible but still good for people involved with that, the DB schema was updated to allow for "default" download links, avoiding the current duplication (all the links currently had to be copied for every series).
<stgraber> It's also now possible to show a custom testcase ID instead of the raw database record ID (feature requested by QA).
<stgraber> The API also had to suffer a minor breakage because of the new testcase management structure, please make sure to update python-qatracker and change your .get_testcases() calls to include the milestone as the first argument.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> If you have any question, feedback or bug report, please get in touch in #ubuntu-iso-tracker.
<stgraber> ..
 * Daviey notes that stgraber types very fast.
<skaet> Thanks stgraber!  :)
<balloons> yes, stgraber thank you very much!
<ogra_> Daviey, he knew that question would come and prepared a paste :)
<ogra_> (i bet)
<skaet> on to the other news that's going to be relevant for A2...  ;)
<stgraber> o/
<skaet> balloons - can you give an overview of the new test case format,  and what we're doing on standardizing and reviewing the test cases for rest of the cycle?
<balloons> sure :-)
 * skaet will get back to stgraber after balloons
<balloons> The new testcase format is the same as what the qa community decided upon last December when we first undertook the updating of testcases. Simply put for every action taken, there is an expected result. Each step should have those two paired together.
<balloons> We're migrating all testcases and consolidating them into the tracker. Once migrated a new team is being organized to help maintain the testcases and manage https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase. People not on this team will still be able to provide feedback and submit fixes or new tests by filing a bug against the ubuntu qa website.
<balloons> Finally, I'm undertaking a review of testcases used (aka, what do we need to be mandatory testcases for each release) and will be contacting some of you folks for feedback. The idea is to review what we are testing and add/remove/modify testcases to ensure out tests are serving the purpose of assuring the image is ready for release :-)
<skaet> ..?
<Daviey> balloons: Server is very keen for some support improving out mandatory test cases, looking forward to disucssing further.
<balloons> sorry yes
<balloons> ...
<skaet> Thanks balloons!  :)
<skaet> stgraber,  go ahead
<stgraber> so I just wanted to say that for alpha-2 we'll mostly be running in "legacy" mode for the testcases on the tracker
<ScottK> o/
<stgraber> with maybe one product using the new format. The others will simply link to the good old testcase on the wiki
<stgraber> as we transition to the new testcases and testsuites, these will hopefully disappear and be there just for archiving reasons by the end of the cycle
<stgraber> you can easily spot these as they are in testsuites named after their respecitve products and with "legacy" in their name
<stgraber> ..
<skaet> thanks stgraber.  :)
<skaet> go ahead ScottK
<ScottK> Would it make sense to make ~core-dev (or maybe ~ubuntu-dev) a member of ~ubuntu-testcase (and how much more email would that mean I get)?
<ScottK> ..
<balloons> o/
<skaet> I think that's probably directed to you balloons,
<skaet> go ahead
<balloons> ;-)
<balloons> ScottK, I'm not sure who is all on the core-dev team. Basically, I want folks who join the team to help maintain the testcases going forward (so they don't become outdated or broken); so there's a little responsibility to joining
<balloons> I don't want to restrict it however, so if the folks on core-dev can undertake the responsibility, let's add them :-)
<skaet> balloons,  any feel for the email traffic likely?
<balloons> ..
<ScottK> I think that collectively you'll get a few that want to adjust things now and then.
<balloons> skaet, umm no no idea on the email traffic.. I don't see me sending mail directly to the team very often
<balloons> or anyone else only contacting the team
<infinity> core-dev people tend to get grumpy when there are things they can't do a drive-by commit/fix to.
<balloons> everything occurring should more or less be public
<ogra_> and you can find them here btw https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+members#active
<ogra_> :)
<balloons> ScottK, yes.. having more people looking after both the common testcases, and the flavor specific stuff is good
<balloons> we can all benefit from people making sure our tests are up-to-date and easy to follow and use
<balloons> ogra_, ahh core-devs.. fun :-) Thanks
<ScottK> infinity: +1.  "Can't do it myself -> later."
<xnox> balloons: generally core-devs all can upload and fix the testcase produced bugs, so they might as well fix/expand the test-cases to prevent certain bugs reoccurring or test something new.
<xnox> ..
<Daviey> or adding || true to the test cases to make sure their uploads pass.
<Daviey> ..
<balloons> xnox, hmm.. yes, makes sense to not prevent them from ensuring testing occurs
<balloons> ..
 * skaet doesn't see any hands queued up,  so, on to more of her questions ;)
<skaet> seb128, from community testing and QA report this week -  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/+bug/1005677 can you look into it?   possible to fix by A2?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1005677 in qt4-x11 (Ubuntu) "Re-emergence of "Gtk-CRITICAL **: IA__gtk_widget_style_get: assertion `GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)'"" [High,Confirmed]
<seb128> skaet, I will see what we can do, we don't have qt maintainers or people knowing the code much though
<seb128> maybe the Kubuntu team can help?
<skaet> ScottK,  Riddell, ^ ?
<ScottK> Maybe even fabo could help.
<Riddell> qt's gtk widget style is probably something nobody in ubuntu has much experience with
<seb128> just reading the bug, I will ask ken to have a look if it's due to the scollbar code
<seb128> ..
<skaet> thanks seb128
<skaet> Riddell,  ScottK - which images will Kubuntu be putting out with A2?
<Riddell> as many as we can
<ScottK> DVD is gone, so not that one.
<Riddell> i386/amd64 desktop alternate and arm omap4 I hope, no kubuntu active
<skaet> Thanks.
<seb128> skaet, btw shouldn't those sort of bugs be rls-q-incoming tagged? I reviewed the list before the meeting, I would have noticed it earlier if it had been tagged (or team assigned)
<skaet> was wondering about kubuntu active.
<skaet> seb128, yes it should be tagged that way by the teams gong forward
<skaet> :)
<seb128> ;-)
<seb128> thanks
<skaet> however,  we needed the communication of the plan before expecting folks to know what to do ;)
<skaet> ..
<skaet> Daviey,  are you continuing with only amd64 for ubuntu server for A2?
<Daviey> skaet: that is th plan
<ScottK> o/
<skaet> thanks Daviey.
<skaet> go ScottK
<ScottK> Is the intent only to release amd64 for server or this that just for now?
<ScottK> ..
<ScottK> Daviey: ^^
<Daviey> ScottK: the current plan is to only realease and amd64 large iso for final.
<Daviey> ScottK: mini.iso, and netboot still fully supported.
<ScottK> Sigh.  OK.  Thanks.
<Daviey> ScottK: A1 didn't have any negative feedback, but still building and reviewing feedback as it goes.
<Daviey> ScottK: Why sigh?
<ScottK> I have 32bit only hardware.
<infinity> ScottK: installing from mini/net are usually more pleasant experiences anyway. :P
<ScottK> Heh.
<Daviey> ScottK: which hardware?
<infinity> ScottK: Unless you're the only man in the world whose network is slower than a CD or USB key.
<ScottK> infinity: Probably not.
<Daviey> ScottK: part of the reason to 'just do it' was to flush out server hardware which is 32bit only.
<ScottK> Daviey: A combination of older Intel Atom processors and Pentium IIIs.
<Daviey> ScottK: Alpha 1 yielded no feedback.
<ScottK> Right, because I don't reinstall servers for Alpha 1.
<Daviey> ScottK: And you use the large iso image to install them?
<stgraber> I'm also running quite a bunch of Atom based routers/lxc hosts that are sadly i386 only, but well, they don't have cdrom drives anyway so I'm not really affected :)
<ScottK> I did last time I did it.
<ScottK> I tend to just upgrade them.
<xnox> Daviey: what about the massive thread on the u-d about switching default iso download link from i386->amd64 for desktops. All the retired desktops... become servers wanting a reinstall.
<Daviey> ScottK: do you think many users will be impacted for new installs?
<ScottK> Daviey: Not installs of new hardware, but if they have a problem and have to reinstall something on existing hardware.
<seb128> should we move that discussion to lists maybe?
<seb128> it probably interest people out of this meeting ;-)
<Daviey> Okay, i'll take the action of being verbal on devel
<Daviey> ..
<skaet> astraljava,  will your team be participating in A2?   which images if so?
<ScottK> Fine with me.
<arosales> o/
 * skaet not sure if astraljava is still around....
<skaet> go ahead arosales
<arosales> server cloud images will still have i386 for this cycle, however we would like to move to only amd64 eventually too based on only having amd64 server iso images.
<arosales> ..
<skaet> popey,  for quantal between now and next monday (A2) is there anything planned to land?   Are there any new features in the drops so far that need to get explained in the technical overview?
<astraljava> Sorry, I'm here. Yep, Xubuntu will participate in Alpha-2. Images: alternates and desktops, both archs.
<astraljava> ..
<skaet> thanks astraljava.  :)
<infinity> arosales: There's actually more agument for cloud images having a 32-bit option than server ISOs.
<infinity> (Cause lots of people do 32-on-64 for workloads with small memory footprints)
<seb128> skaet, did you have any question left for me? I've something planned at 6pm (i.e in 5 minutes) and need to run
<stgraber> o/
<seb128> skaet, afaik nothing planned for unity stack out for SRUs
<popey> correct
<seb128> out of SRUs
<skaet> thanks seb128, popey
<skaet> ..
 * ogra_ jumps
<skaet> have a nice evening seb128,  those were the main ones.
<arosales> infinity: main concern there is foot print size?
<skaet> for you.
<seb128> skaet, thanks, I will read scrollback and list if there is any question
<seb128> ..
<skaet> go stgraber
<infinity> arosales: Not the install footprint, but the in-memory footprint, yes.
<stgraber> so, just wanted to warn that I'm currently preparing a network stack update (ifupdown, resolvconf, isc-dhcp, possibly vlan, bridge-utils and ifenslave-2.6). Debian has been doing some weird things around these lately so it's a bit harder than usual (involves a lot of breaks/replaces and moving init jobs around). I'll have a PPA ready for testing soonish
<stgraber> I don't expect these to land for alpha-2 but they might hit -proposed next week to be released in the release pocket post-alpha
<skaet> thanks for the heads up.
<stgraber> I'll try and go through the bugs for these packages again before upload, if you have any current issue with these packages, please ping.
<stgraber> ..
<skaet> Could the release team members present please raise their hand?   Want to see if there is quorum for the milestone/freeze discussion we were thinking about on #ubuntu-release yesterday. and if we want to go past the hour?
<arosales> infinity: thanks for the feedback. I'll get in touch with you to see how large of an impact this would be. Some newer clouds are only offering 64 bit images ..
<stgraber> o/
<tumbleweed> o/
<infinity> o/
<skaet> skaet o/  ;)
<infinity> skaet: THat was an "I'm here", not a "I think we should extend the meeting".
<ogra_> extending the meeting needs both arms raised, right ?
<ogra_> :)
<popey> skaet, i need to scoot and do some compiz SRU work.. can I please be excused? :)
<skaet> ScottK and Riddell are around, but I'm not seeing signs of Laney.
<infinity> Laney's around.
<skaet> thanks popey for joining us.
<ScottK> o/
<Laney> greetings
<popey> skaet, sil2100 can answer if you have any questions for me
<Laney> I thought this meeting was from 1700-1800 BST
<ogra_> UTC
<Laney> so just checked in to see that it had been going for an hour
<Laney> the horror!
<skaet> :)
<Riddell> o/
<stgraber> slangasek, NCommander were talking in other channels not too long ago, they might be around too
<skaet> I think we're close enough to quorum,   any one feel strongly scheduling something different,  or continue on now.
 * NCommander is around
<Laney> this is fine
<skaet> infinity, Laney - correct me if I'm wrong,  but I think the open question is What prerequisites need to be in place before we can consider dropping the milestones for the alpha part of the release?
<Laney> The original proposal was around dropping the 'freeze' part of the milestones, and then the question of dropping milestones altogether arose and kind of took over.
<ogra_> doesnt that depend on the infrastructure the QA team will build up in early august ?
<ogra_> (else we cant do any automated arm testing afaik)
<infinity> skaet: Well, we need a cultural shift to more consistent/regular testing (PlusOneQA, to go with PlusOneMaint, if you will), and we almost certainly need the testing-style migration in place, with all uploads going to proposed.
<infinity> ogra_: Automation is important, but probably not related to this.
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> i thought it was a requirement
<infinity> ogra_: It's the culture of "we only manually test right before milestones, then panic" that needs fixing.
<skaet> +1 on that.   :)
<skaet> anyone else have thoughts to add to infinity's?
<ScottK> Laney: I think dropping the freeze and dropping the milestones are tightly coupled.  I don't think you can effectively do one without the other.
<infinity> Anyhow, as I see it, "dropping milestones" isn't something we should be looking to do, it's something we should be looking at as a side-effect.
<Riddell> it's hard enough to get people to test for milestones, I can't see how to get people to test for non-milestones and be able to track the bugs in any meaningful way
<infinity> As in, once our QA processes are more sane, milestones will almost "obviously" become a complete waste of time.
<ogra_> so set a milestone for your people
<stgraber> I mentioned it in some of my e-mails and on IRC but my point of view is that things should be done incrementally, increasing daily testing and implementing -proposed are good first steps
<ogra_> stgraber, ++
<stgraber> we can then look at the results of these changes and discuss the next step for the next cycle
<ogra_> and +
<Laney> ScottK: Possibly true. I don't know what effect the -proposed redirection would have.
 * ogra_ also thinks its way to ruched
<ogra_> *rushed
<ScottK> One of the really useful things about milestones for me as an end user is that I know if I test for a milestone and it's a bug that gets tied to the ISO testing, it gets more attention.
<infinity> ScottK: That's a process issue.
<tumbleweed> I think that if we can show that we are getting enough testing between milestones that the milestones have ceased to be important, then they can fall away. But proving that the testing is happening comes first
<infinity> ScottK: A bug found in a daily is just as important as one found during "milestone panic week", and if that's not currently true, that needs to be fixed.
<ScottK> tumbleweed: That's the right order to look at it.
<ogra_> and thats why i assumed the automated testing was a req.
<infinity> ogra_: We don't have automated testing for ARM at milestone times either. :P
<ogra_> infinity, nope, i assumed daily testing though
<infinity> ogra_: In reality, people think milestones are important because it's when "all the manual testing" happens, which shakes out all the "weird" bugs that automation doesn't see.
<ogra_> yes
<ogra_> and i agree with that, you still need the drive by testers
<ogra_> and as i wrote in my mail we mostly get them *after* the milestone due to the announcement
<infinity> So, yeah.  I think the obvious first goal is decoupling that, and having "all the manual testing" happen "all the time".  And if people feel that bugs reported at milestones are getting an inflated priority, we need to fix that.
<xnox> ScottK: doesn't this proposal mean that Kubuntu for example can have kubuntu specific milestones in sync with landing KDE releases to test those in meaningful way.
<infinity> If I find a scary bug 2 weeks before an Alpha, or two days after, it's just as critical.
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 2 could not be found
<ogra_> heh
<ScottK> xnox: Not really.
<balloons> xnox, +1. I like the idea of having focused efforts of testing around things that make sense
<tumbleweed> ogra_: in which case, we make the best use of the drive by testers if we spend a bit of time polishing the image
<ogra_> tumbleweed, well, or through other events ... thats why i asked if there was anythin planned
<astraljava> balloons: That's what we (Xubuntu) was hoping for, as well.
<astraljava> were
<infinity> tumbleweed: Our images 3 days after milestones are often better than the milestone. :P
<tumbleweed> :)
<infinity> tumbleweed: But people all rush out to test the milestone, not the next daily, and report dupes of all the bugs in the release notes.
<Daviey> I pretty firmly disagree with dropping of freeze and/or milestones.. but seems i am a minority
<infinity> (Yes, this actually happens)
<ScottK> Daviey: I agree with you.
<NCommander> asdo I, but I've reclused myself from this topic and its dusciussion
<balloons> infinity, tumbleweed case in point. I used the daily after alpha1 to install. it had lots of fixes in it that alpha 1 did not :-)
<Laney> One would hope that quality is increasing as we go on.
 * xnox sees that freezes and milestones is the whole point of time based release management which actually drives the stability to land on time.
<infinity> Anyhow, I think there's a horse and carriage issue here, where people immediately jump to the conclusion without the interim.
<Daviey> xnox: +1!
<Laney> Anyway.
<ScottK> xnox: Different flavors can't do milestones whenever they want both because (at least for now) parts of the archive need freezing and Canonical needs to commit resources to ISO building/releasing.
<xnox> by dropping milestones, it's effectively switching to a rolling release schedule
<ScottK> NCommander: reclused/recused.
<infinity> Don't frame this as "don't take away my milestones, it'll kill my testing", frame this as "removing milestones some day is an interesting goal, if we can improve our testing processes beforehand".
 * NCommander coughs
<ogra_> balloons, but you were lucky that no installer changes landed that broke installability
<Laney> I wanted us to have this discussion so that we, as the release team, can present "our opinion".
<skaet> infinity,  balloons and jibel's reports each week has the key bugs they're finding and worried about,   maybe a good first step is making sure they're sorted out by the development teams before the milestone week?
<infinity> ogra_: If we're breaking installability, we need to fix that too. :P
<ogra_> infinity, sure, not saying we shouldnt
<Daviey> One of the key things that milestones provide, is a genuine target for a feature or bugfix.  Rolling fake milestones make it less urgent, and therefore will slow velocity.  Which is a big deal.
<ogra_> but having a daily bootable and installable is a matter of luck currently
<ScottK> infinity: Milestones have non-technical benefits as well.  I'm not sure that on the whole it's a good goal.  I think not having to freeze for a milestone might be a good future goal.
<xnox> I would be in favor of: shortening the release week, and introducing gradually more frequent freezes and more frequent milestones. By a day or two. Then we will find the right cadence in a sliding manner.
<infinity> ogra_: I see this discussion as a natural extension to PlusOneMaint.  If we're pushing for an archive that's always consistent (PlusOneMaint's current top mandate), then we need a PlusOneQA to go with it that makes sure dailies are actually not crap, after the POM people have made sure dailies can exist.
<ogra_> infinity, right
<Laney> We can invite the community QA team to implement their desired process, and then evaluate how successful it is. And maybe experiment with not freezing for a milestone once we have the proposed infrastructure in place.
<Daviey> infinity: I understood the 'rolling miletsone' would be a two week cadence for manual testing
<ScottK> Laney: Community QA and their process only affects Ubuntu images.
<infinity> Daviey: That seems to be a first cut attempt from balloons' team.
<infinity> Daviey: That's hardly set in stone.
<ScottK> They've made that very clear, so it's not sufficient by definition.
<Daviey> Laney: do you want to gauge release team votes to indicate excitement for this change ?
<Laney> ScottK: Yeah. I think that's unfortunate and we need to work out how to fix that too.
<infinity> Daviey: Honestly, I'd rather see UE teams take an hour once a week to just spin up some ISOs.  Rotate that between teams, and you get coverage over the whole week.  Bam, daily testing.
<xnox> infinity: and there will be daily testing and no daily development?!
<infinity> ScottK: To be fair, while having daily testing of everything would be awesome, even Ubuntu testing is still exercising bits other flavours care about.  Just not all the bits.
<ogra_> xnox, for 1h
<ogra_> of one team member
<ScottK> infinity: That's true.
<infinity> xnox: If making your 40 hour week a 39 hour week halts your development, we have some odd problems we need to discuss with vorlon. ;)
<ogra_> *grin*
<Daviey> infinity: i don't disagree with that at all.. And whilst we don't do full manual mandatory testing by hand (it is fully automated).. i dont think a week passes without us doing manual installs.
<xnox> ogra_: RAID install takes longer than 1h
<ogra_> xnox, arm live image installs too
<infinity> xnox: Not one hour that you have to stare at it, surely.
<Daviey> I'm reasonably happy with the daily RAID testing to not make that a weekly by-hand test
 * infinity image tests in the background while, like, working.
<ogra_> xnox, we should never enable raid on arm live images i conclude :)
<infinity> Turns out computers are pretty good at doing stuff even when I'm not staring at them.
<ScottK> infinity: Me too, but not on anything that requires sustained concentration.
<xnox> ogra_: oh but we are =) anyway this is off topic
<Daviey> So.. there seems to be no measure of peoples view on this?
<infinity> ScottK: Oh, I sometimes get engrossed, and then notice I have a test install that's been patiently waiting on input for, like, 3 days. :)
<ScottK> Heh.
<ScottK> I don't think anyone is opposed to the idea of tools and processes to make it possible to not freeze during a milestone.
<skaet> No change is going to happen for A2.   We'll follow the same pattern for A2 as we used for A1 once we start spinning up the images (asking folks to upload to -proposed).   We should be prioritizing fixing the issues that our EXISTING testing is finding, and work on strengthening up the infrastructure.
<ScottK> I don't think anyone is opposed to encouraging additional testing between milestones so there's less surpise.
<skaet> is that a reasonable summary ^ ?
<infinity> I'd add "culture" to your infrastructure comment, but sure.
<ScottK> infinity: Yes.
<skaet> infinity,  agreed.  :)
<infinity> It's not all about tools.  Tools don't magically change what people do, or why they do it, it's about message.
<ScottK> skaet: For Alpha 2 I think that's right.
<Laney> I would like to make it clear that any changes to the release process must bring the flavours along.
 * Daviey has to go now, but i'd like it noted that i am not keen on these changes.
<skaet> Laney,  agreed.
<ScottK> skaet: I think one of the key progenitors of change is how we message Alpha/Beta releases.  As infinity has said, a current daily is often better than last weeks Alpha and we need a way to communicate that.
<infinity> I kinda want to see a day where "daily" and "milestone" are pretty much the same thing.  But that's a loooong way out, and requires a lot of process, infrastructure, and cultural shift, and we may never get there.
<skaet> I think we all agree its a good long term goal.    Challenge is to get there in sensible steps.
<ogra_> ++
<infinity> But I think it's still a worthy goal to work toward, not for the end itself, but for the things it buys us along the way (consistency, better QA, etc)
<stgraber> more than alpha-2, I think we shouldn't be changing the way we freeze the archive or when we freeze it or when we release our milestones for this cycle. We all agreed on a release schedule at the beginning of the cycle, I don't think changing it afterwards is a good idea.
<stgraber> However that doesn't prevent us in any way in encouraging daily testing or implementing the -proposed changes we agreed on.
<infinity> Right.
<skaet> yup.
<Daviey> skaet: no, we don't all agree it's a good long term goal :)
<infinity> And as those things happen, I hope we'll see that milestones become easier and easier.
<infinity> To the point where first the freeze, then the milestone itself, seem like wasted effort.
<skaet> Daviey,  I suspect this won't be the last conversation on this.
<skaet> :)
<Daviey> :))
<Laney> I'm not really clear on what the freeze is when we get -proposed going.
<Laney> Is it that we turn off migration?
<stgraber> Laney: yes
<infinity> Daviey: I'll talk with you later about this, cause I want more on your position.  Go have a life in your timezone. :P
<stgraber> Laney: we move from auto-migration to migration for non-seeded and the release team can manually copy anything that's seeded and required for the milestone
<Laney> But if migration is doing its job properly then maybe it becomes unnecessary to do that.
<skaet> #ACTION:  skaet to start off a blueprint for -r release for people to record ideas and thoughts on logical steps for making progress to the long term goal.
<meetingology> ACTION: :  skaet to start off a blueprint for -r release for people to record ideas and thoughts on logical steps for making progress to the long term goal.
<stgraber> Laney: auto-migration will prevent skew, it won't prevent broken software
<Laney> Qualityâ¢ does that :P
<xnox> I would want the smoketests to prevent publishing daily-images, to save wasted time of manual testers.
<xnox> automated.
<skaet> xnox,  that's a good criteria to consider.
<Laney> You know, like the comprehensive regression testing suites we'll run on proposed.
<stgraber> Laney: in a perfect world, nobody introduces bugs and we'd have 100% code coverage of everything just in case they did, but we're pretty far from that ;)
<xnox> Laney: UTAH automatic install & reboot tests on bare metal is better.
<ogra_> ++
<Laney> There will of course be multiple layers of testing, I'm just saying that maybe there comes a point where freezing isn't worth it
<xnox> Laney: the -proposed tests will do nothing if the resulting cdimage is borked and non-usable to boot.
<ogra_> or to install
<Laney> I didn't say that it was the only testing.
<Laney> sigh.
 * ogra_ thinks we have two different topics going on here 
<skaet> ok,  I think we're winding down.   #ubuntu-release for more discussion on this.   We'll free up the meeting channel now,  and set up some infrastructure to keep the constructive dialog and planning going.
<stgraber> Laney: the only way we'll see if -proposed is good enough not to require freezing is by having -proposed implemented while still having our freezes. If we find that the release team copies everything, then the freeze isn't needed.
<Laney> that is almost exactly what I was trying to suggest
<skaet> Thanks to everyone for their patience on the extended meeting today.
<arosales> thanks for chairing skaet
<skaet> Thanks Daviey, arosales, ogra_, popey, brendand, Riddell, infinity, ScottK, stgraber, balloons,  brendand, highvoltage, astraljava,  xnox, seb128, Laney, tumbleweed for your participation in the meeting today. :)
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jun 22 16:30:23 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-22-15.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-22-15.00.html
<Laney> cheers
<ogra_> thanks skaet
<xnox> thank you all
<balloons> thanks skaet
<stgraber> thanks!
<tumbleweed> thanks all
<skaet> good discussion!  :)   Thanks again.
 * xnox To Quality and Beyond!
 * tumbleweed -> outta here
<skaet> lol
<skaet> thanks xnox,  you got me with that one.
<NCommander> I need to drop off, meetng conflict
<highvoltage> belated thanks to skaet :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-24
<cvb> hello...
<cvb> hello...
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> #start meeting IRCC
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRCC
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jun 24 17:59:59 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
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<Unit193> Howdy.
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> who is here for the meeting?
<topyli> hey
<DJones>  /
<Pici> â«
<Pici> er, \o
<IdleOne> o/
<m4v> hi
<jussi> o/ vaguely, crying baby
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
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<AlanBell> so actions from last time, lets see
<AlanBell> alanbell to sort out removal of eir
<AlanBell> #fail
<AlanBell> so I was going to do this because uBOTu-fr was going to take over, but it was missing
<AlanBell> lets come back to that whole question a bit later when we have a topic dedicated to it
<AlanBell> #topic Welcome to the new IRCC member
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<AlanBell> welcome Tm_T \o/
<IdleOne> Welcome and congrats Tm_T !
<topyli> yay Tm_T !
<Pici> Woo, Tm_T!
<DJones> Congrats Tm_T
<IdleOne> No new taxes!
<topyli> finns love taxes, beware
<AlanBell> the results of the election were announced by the Community Council the other day and Tm_T is now our 5th IRCC member
<AlanBell> launchpad groups and channel access and suchlike has been set up
<Pici> launch codes, etc.
<AlanBell> if only
<IdleOne> Pici: not the abort codes right?
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
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<pleia2> just a quick note, I added his expire time as the same as the rest of you, but that's just because it's not something we've discussed
<pleia2> we (CC and IRCC) should probably pick that up at some point
<AlanBell> pleia2: yeah, I saw that, thanks
<Pici> Yep
<AlanBell> pleia2: setting the expire time the same was something we had planned and stated a few times
<topyli> hm, wasn't that in the initial announcement that we're looking for the missing member?
<pleia2> even better
<Pici> ooh, problem solved already? I like this.
<pleia2> me too :)
<TheLordOfTime> heh
<IdleOne> item closed.
<jussi> too good to be true, watch it...
<AlanBell> ok, so the tracker, we do have an open item in it relating to the user mcloy
<AlanBell> I closed it once and it reopened :(
<AlanBell> and we have another email today relating to some kind of appeal
<IdleOne> what is the issue exactly with mcloy?
<IdleOne> or can we not discuss that here?
<Pici> Which was sent to both lists, but we'll be taking it
<AlanBell> so it was
<topyli> i rejected the message to the irc-team list and accepted the one to the council
<topyli> public vs private and all that
<AlanBell> good stuff
<Pici> topyli: oh, good, good.
<AlanBell> Shano56 is the user involved in that appeal
<topyli> personally i think it's being handled just fine by ops
<AlanBell> IdleOne: I would rather not discuss individual stuff here as a general rule, just being open about what appeals are going on
<Pici> I think we should just talk about it 'offline' (so to speak).
<Pici> AlanBell: which is what I was trying to get at.
<IdleOne> sounds good. the Shano56 thing I think was handled properly.
<AlanBell> ok, so that is the tracker
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
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<AlanBell> no new bugs
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<AlanBell> lets come back to that one in a sec
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
<AlanBell> Pici: have you had a poke at this one?
<Pici> AlanBell: I did, and then I got terribly busy with work stuff.  Keep it on my docket, I'll make some time to deal with it.
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> #topic alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC Meeting | Current topic:  alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
<AlanBell> I did some of this and sent a few mails to the lists about it
<AlanBell> I ticked off the big channels
<IdleOne> ticked off as in upset?
<AlanBell> heh, hope not
<Pici> as in marked the checkboxx.
<IdleOne> ah, k.
<AlanBell> then there was the IRCC election stuff and other things which distracted me
<AlanBell> but I will continue with that and get it to a point where we can automate it
<AlanBell> there was also a kubuntu council election which changed some kubuntu stuff
<IdleOne> Congrats to jussi for being elected to Kubuntu Council
<IdleOne> :)
<Pici> Grats Jussi!
<AlanBell> yes indeed!
 * jussi blushes and hides
<topyli> :)
<AlanBell> any comments on the access list processing so far?
<Pici> No issues from over here.
<AlanBell> #topic Review #ubuntu-ops-team (Quarterly)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC Meeting | Current topic:  Review #ubuntu-ops-team (Quarterly)
<AlanBell> this is a standing item we insert quarterly
<topyli> we've done this a couple of quarters now, and been generally happy. i think we could stop reviewing it
<AlanBell> the #ubuntu-ops-team channel is an invitation only channel for operators and a few others who are invited
<jussi> Pici mentioned about offtopic in there - do we want to talk about that?
<topyli> that doesn't mean we shouldn't address any specific issues
<Pici> knome, Unit193 and I had a good discussion the other day about offtopicness in -ops-team
<AlanBell> jussi: sure
<topyli> jussi: well, there are a couple of valid but somewhat contradicting views, so it deserves discussion
<topyli> 1) offtopic stuff isn't coordination. 2) not all ops are in the same offtopic channels and thus will miss each other lolcats if they're not allowed in -ops-team
<Pici> I had originally suggested to move the offtopicness into #ubuntu-offtopic, but there were problems with that suggestion, mainly that its very #ubuntu centric (Rather than #x/#k#/l etc).  So the comprimise that we agreed on was to try to seed some of the good conversations that we have been having there into the various offtopic channels.
<AlanBell> I am quite comfortable with the concept of #ubuntu-ops-team, I think it is really useful to separate that from the #ubuntu-ops channel
<guntbert> seeding good conversations into ot channels sounds *very* good
<topyli> AlanBell: absolutely. that's why i'm suggesting we stop reviewing its existance
<Pici> But publicly reviewing anything that we may have brought up in there (that should be made public) isn't probably good.
<Pici> er, s/isn't/is/
<Tm_T> sorry for my late arrival
<AlanBell> hi Tm_T
<IdleOne> o/ Tm_T
<topyli> hi Tm_T. welcome to the meeting and to the council :)
<Pici> Anyway, the point was to be conscious of the offtopicness, and try to bring it into our offtopic channels if the parties involved are there as well.
<AlanBell> does anyone think we should review the #ubuntu-ops-team channel in a further three months, or not bother as per topyli's proposal?
<jussi> the point of the review is to make sure it isnt becoming clique and being abused
<Pici> And again, this isn't a blanket ban on being able to socialize in there, just something to keep in the back of your head.
<topyli> i think jussi and Pici are saying the same thing
<IdleOne> AlanBell: I think keeping the review process is a good thing and won't hurt.
<AlanBell> topyli: I am thinking that 5 minutes per quarter isn't a big deal, but we should focus on how we are using it rather than whether it should exist
<topyli> yes
<IdleOne> Will serve as a reminder to us to try and keep the channel on topic as much as possible.
<Tm_T> that
<AlanBell> ok lets move on, and I will swap the next two agenda items
<jussi> AlanBell: ++
<AlanBell> #topic Make #ubuntu-offtopic +r (discussion on the merits of this)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC Meeting | Current topic:  Make #ubuntu-offtopic +r (discussion on the merits of this)
<AlanBell> this was something ikonia asked us to think about
<TheLordOfTime> i'm not on the ircc, but would ikonia care to explain the background of this?
<Pici> We breifly weighed the pros and cons, but we suggested that he add it to the meeting agenda anyway.
<AlanBell> as one possible way to improve conversations in -offtopic and stop a little bit of random abuse
<IdleOne> making the channel +r will make it more difficult for the #ubuntu ops to direct new users to the channel when needed
<TheLordOfTime> i agree with IdleOne on this one
<TheLordOfTime> a majority of #ubuntu is unregistered
<jussi> whatever happened to #ubuntu-discuss? wasnt it part of the master plan?
<AlanBell> I asked ikonia to figure out how much of #ubuntu-offtopic was unregistered
<Pici> jussi: still up in the air.
<topyli> there is some obvious merit. less random noise, and also easier bans :)
<IdleOne> meaning, not only do we have to explain that they are off topic and to change channel but then explain how to register. if the channel is open then we can take the registration "support" and help the user in -ot
<TheLordOfTime> ^ that
<Tm_T> I don't like restricting -ot nor necessarily the idea of extra -discuss
<Pici> IdleOne: I think we already have enough pain when trying to direct folks to ##java, and simiular channels.
<topyli> IdleOne: good point
<DJones> There's a lot of occasions when new users are directed to -ot rather than #u when they want just general info, they're unlikely to be registered (new to IRC etc), which will cause confusion & potentially push them away from ubuntu
<IdleOne> Pici: in #u you mean? yes, why add to it by restricting -ot?
<Pici> IdleOne: Exactly.
<IdleOne> ok :)
<guntbert> to my eyes "abuse" has diminished significantly - there have even been some quality discussions
<Pici> Well yeah, but only when we're not scaring off our -offtopic operators ;)
<Pici> guntbert: but seriously, I agree.
<Tm_T> I have my hope on leading by example (not by me necessarily)
<IdleOne> -1 to setting -ot +r
<Pici> And the folks who are determined to troll aren't going to be deterred by it being set +r, just the folks who want to casually chat.
<IdleOne> also, sometimes a two hour chat about kittens is quality
<AlanBell> ok, it sounded quite an appealing suggestion to me, but those are good points about directing new people to it
<topyli> i'll say -1 too. -ot is an old channel and hasn't really become any *worse* over the years. this whispers to me not to rock the boat
<AlanBell> but I do think that new people should be directed to somewhere to discuss Ubuntu rather than kittens
<Tm_T> it would just make -ot even more of a place for limited circle instead of whole community
<AlanBell> (or other small fluffy/feathery creatures)
<topyli> AlanBell: i think the lolcat discussions most often pause when real ubuntu discussion is starting to take place
 * TheLordOfTime agrees with Tm_T's view
<IdleOne> AlanBell: We discuss Ubuntu a lot in -ot, just that some people take great offense to Ubuntu being put down. e.g. UNITY SUCKS!
<guntbert> AlanBell: as long as one discussion doesn't drown the other, I see no problem with discussing pets
<Pici> A UNITY SUCKS discussion is neither a) constructive nor b) something that 99% of the folks there want to discuss.
 * AlanBell is all in favour of chicken related discussions
<IdleOne> many of the people who start out with that sort of comment about Ubuntu end up having excellent points
<DJones> Possibly a different thought process needs to be gone through from #u etc when directing people to -ot, at times it possibly gets used to redirect non-coc comliant conversations to to -ot rather than just asking them to stop the conversation all-together, not by ops, but by general #u users
<topyli> there's very good unity criticism there as well, worthy of being directed to #ubuntu-desktop or similar really :)
<Pici> IdleOne: true, but then again we've heard most of the arguments for/against it already. but lets not get too sidetracked.
<IdleOne> Pici: I hear you
<AlanBell> yeah, this item was about setting it +r, and it seems on balance that isn't going to be a good idea, so lets not do that then
<Pici> DJones: I've been pretty quick to point that out to folks who mash !ot instead of telling people to stop.
<IdleOne> Anyway, I want to be able to send new Ubuntu/IRC users to -ot without having to send them to #freenode first to get help registering
<guntbert> DJones: so we should decide if !ot is to be used or some other factoid (in #u)
<Pici> AlanBell: agreed.
<AlanBell> ok, so moving on once more
<AlanBell> )
<AlanBell> #topic ubottu, uBOTu-fr and eir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC Meeting | Current topic:  ubottu, uBOTu-fr and eir
<Pici> Lets try to get through the rest of the agenda, and then we can move back to the State of Offtopic afterwards if we have time.
<AlanBell> so, bots
<Pici> yep
<Pici> can't live with'em, oh... wait, thats somethinjg else...
<topyli> eir database is growing by the minute, as ikonia reminded us today in -irc-council
<AlanBell> I was going to get eir removed so we could focus on uBOTu-fr
<AlanBell> but uBOTu-fr was missing in action, and m4v raised some points about the test suite not passing
<IdleOne> AlanBell: do we have a working ubotu-fr to use in #ubuntu yet?
<Pici> Sounds like we might not.
<AlanBell> I grabbed a copy of the source today to have a look at what it does
<IdleOne> then I say we hold off until there is a known working replacement for eir
<Tm_T> I'd say first u-fr up to shape and then drop eir
<IdleOne> eir is not perfect but it is better than nothing for now
<m4v> I don't want to maintain a supybot fork for stuff that should be in a plugin.
<Pici> I think it might be good to trial u-fr (once it gets back up to spec) in some of our other high traffic channels
<oCean> We should not start with trials with any bot, until we have a agreed on set of requirements
<AlanBell> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApW_s9q9E0zEdE9naVF4c0xjTUhpelZnZTFoYzZWNVE#gid=0
<Pici> oCean: I thought we already had a list somewhere
<AlanBell> requirements ^^
<Unit193> May see if you can get some of that into a plugin, and general stuff into an existing fork.
<oCean> Pici: we had a list of bugs for eir, the link AlanBell posted is where I started a little while ago
<oCean> This could be where to start from. Decide which are the Must/Could/Should haves etc
<AlanBell> yeah, I like the list oCean
<m4v> well, there's the stuff we wrote for the next bt http://ubottu.com/devel/wiki/Spec/Bantracker
<oCean> m4v: yeah, that is another point. The BT
<oCean> we should not see those to apart from each other, is what I think
<IdleOne> the requirements look good to me
<oCean> those two*
<m4v> oCean: another? isn't the BT the point we're discussing?
<oCean> m4v: we have focussed on bot functionality a lot
<m4v> there's the idea of using ubotu-fr because our bt doesn't have automatic removal of bans
<oCean> for example, we started with eir, while we knew there was no integration with the BT
<AlanBell> yeah, I am not sure why we don't just write ban expiry into the existing ubottu channel plugin
<AlanBell> or a separate plugin
<oCean> Yes, I'm all for that, AlanBell
<oCean> however, I don't have the knowledge/skill to do that
<m4v> AlanBell: ubottu bantracker plugin, ubotu-fr channel plugin is a rewrite of a supybot core plugin.
<AlanBell> yeah, I saw that
<Pici> I think we have enough python/supybot skill here to make that happen, but the issue was that we sort of felt that the current Bantracker system needed a lot of love in various places to bring it up to spec.
<IdleOne> which m4v gave it did he not?
<oCean> Pici: Indeed, it still does
<m4v> well, I have been looking how to add automatic removal in ubottu, I think it can be done, but are we going to have ubottu +o all the time?
<oCean> m4v: eir isn't +o all the time
<Pici> I personally don't have a problem with that, as long as she doesn't go haywire.
<AlanBell> m4v: maybe, or can it just talk to chanserv?
<IdleOne> m4v: ubottu only needs +o when setting the modes
<Pici> AlanBell: chanserv can't unban people.
<Pici> Well, other than yourself.
<AlanBell> orly
<m4v> ok, so needs to request op when needed.
<TheLordOfTime> yep
<IdleOne> AlanBell: something about accountability and not abusing chanserv to do nasty things
<Pici> Being opped all the time is less noise that opping up, unbanning, and deopping.
<AlanBell> ah, ok, unban is only for self
<m4v> Pici: is also easier to implement, that's why I asked
<Pici> m4v: right.
<IdleOne> I would be fine with ubottu holding @
<AlanBell> any downside to always being @
<Pici> oblivious people ask it questions.
<Tm_T> more private messages
<Unit193> Questions may be directed directly more.
<Pici> like we get with the floodbots.
<TheLordOfTime> AlanBell:  not unless the bot starts spitting out random errors
<TheLordOfTime> ;P
<AlanBell> ubottu: do people talk to you already?
<ubottu> Error: I haven't seen people.
<ubottu> AlanBell: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<oCean> I don't think eir opping and deopping is too much noise for anyone
<Tm_T> have to be afk now, sorry
<m4v> AlanBell: well, maybe the channel's "temperature"?
<IdleOne> wouldn't be any more noisy then eir
<guntbert> m4v: she cannot get into an argument, so will not raise the temperature, I guess
<DJones> I can't see a problem with ubottu being +o other than spam from users, most regulars know that ubottu is a bot and will normally advise users of that when they see somebody speaking directly to her
<m4v> guntbert: I guess so :P
<AlanBell> it seems fine to me, I can't imagine any security concerns about it, if someone can impersonate ubottu then they can cause a similar amount of nusiance either way
<oCean> Getting into the details already :(
<Pici> Why don't we see how feasible it is to make ubottu's current bantracker handling unbanning (and all that jazz), and then we can see how we want to handle the opping status.
<AlanBell> yup
<m4v> oh right, I'll get ops in #ubuntu through ubottu >D j/k
<AlanBell> :O
<IdleOne> I still don't know why you don't have ops in #u
<AlanBell> so m4v, want to have a crack at implementing that? I am happy to help a bit and I am sure others will too
<Pici> As am I.
<m4v> AlanBell: I already started looking at it, it will be a hack, but meh.
<Pici> Isn't everything ;)
<DJones> If ubottu fell off freenode and somebody was alert enough to spot it, could they /nick to ubottu and gain ops in the 30 seconds before nick enforce took priority
<Pici> no
<m4v> DJones: nope, it would need to identify
<IdleOne> not without knowing the nickserv pass
<IdleOne> which is not HUNTER2
<IdleOne> I tried.
<topyli> yeah i changed it the other day
<Pici> The enteries in the access list are account names, not nicks.
<TheLordOfTime> lol
<jussi> its not 123456789 either :P
<Pici> jussi: thats the same password I have on my luggage :o
<DJones> That sounds like it would restrict any 3rd party potential for abuse anyway
<AlanBell> lets do some actions
<topyli> ok, so eir stays and a mega ubottu hackfest is commensing. we can then retire eir tuesday by lunchtime? :)
<oCean> (:
<AlanBell> #action m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities
<meetingology> ACTION: m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities
<AlanBell> by tuesday lunchtime
<topyli> :)
<AlanBell> #agreed ubottu can hold +o in channels where ban expiry will be used
<m4v> ok, you guys never took a look at bantracker code? welcome to the madhouse.
<Pici> m4v: no, I've already lost my mind looking at it a few times before.
<jussi> bantracker is a huge mess
<topyli> by lunch is not realistic?
<IdleOne> Why can't something new be used in its place?
<Pici> It always has been, lets blame Seveas, hes not really heere.
<Pici> IdleOne: because we can't seem to do that fast enough for anyone's liking.
<jussi> topyli: give them till dinner :P
<AlanBell> this is just adding ban removal, how hard can it be?
<AlanBell> #topic Linking IRCC 'contact this team' in launchpad with osticket
<TheLordOfTime> AlanBell:  on a timer, HARD
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC Meeting | Current topic:  Linking IRCC 'contact this team' in launchpad with osticket
<IdleOne> Pici: sucks to be them.
<topyli> ok fine, volunteers and all
<m4v> IdleOne: something new would take a lot of more time.
<AlanBell> so who added this suggestion?
<topyli> i did
<oCean> What is the progress with the BT, can both bot and bt developments combined?
<IdleOne> m4v: I understand that but it would be better than hacking stuff together and hope it doesn't explode
<oCean> oh
<oCean> nvm
<Pici> I though the 'contact this team' thing just sent all the team members an email.
<AlanBell> it does, but it seems we can direct it to a specific email address
<TheLordOfTime> |^ that
<topyli> this item is about avoiding mail via launchpad in our inboxen and into the ticket system
<Pici> topyli: that sounds like a much better idea to me.
<Pici> can I send all my own mail there too? ;)
<jussi> I like this idea
<jussi> Pici: no :P
<Pici> darn.
<AlanBell> A confirmation message has been sent to 'ircc-appeals@ubottu.com'. Follow the instructions in that message to confirm the new contact address for this team.
<topyli> heh
<AlanBell> hmm
<AlanBell> ok, we have a new appeal to deal with ;)
<topyli> denied!
<Pici> topyli: you need to actually read the appeal message first ;)
<jussi> Noooo!!! :(
<AlanBell> ok, so we can finish that off later, but it seems like a good idea
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<Pici> cool cool fcool
<topyli> yeah we can handle it ourselves
<AlanBell> does anyone else have any other topics they would like to raise?
<jussi> argh, I had somethign, but Ive forgotten
<IdleOne> AlanBell: We have been having issues with certain persistent people trolling our less active channels that have hardly any access for the ops team. Would it be possible to create a spec ops team account and add this account to those smaller channels?
<jussi> no doubt it will come to me after the meeting
<Pici> IdleOne: Isn't that what the ircc account is for?
<IdleOne> Pici: there are only 5 of you and they seem to know your schedules
<topyli> jussi: it always does doesn't it :)
<AlanBell> some don't have the ubuntuirccouncil account in the access list (-beginners is the example that springs to mind)
<Pici> IdleOne: Is freenode-staff on those access lists?
<IdleOne> AlanBell: which brings me to my next suggestion make it mandatory that IRCC be in all channel access list in the namespace
<IdleOne> Pici: some but staff is not always available either
<jussi> IdleOne: can you name specific time when this has happened?
<Tm_T> back
<AlanBell> right now it is suggested that we are in the access lists, and we can get staff assistance if we are not and need to be
<TheLordOfTime> oh, i have one other thing of business to bring up, when you're done with this issue you're discussing.
<TheLordOfTime> regarding access lists.
<TheLordOfTime> (you just reminded me AlanBell)
<IdleOne> jussi:19:00 to 21:00 my time
<IdleOne> UTC-5
<topyli> i would enjoy being sure without checking that ubuntuirccouncil is on the access list of any channel with an emergency
<IdleOne> jussi: the times vary
<TheLordOfTime> there are a few channels which have Ubuntu Members in their access lists.  Given that freenode has been starting a policy of secondary-cloaks being project.accountname rather than project.role.accountname, Ubuntu Members with newer secondary cloaks are not able to have access to channels which use the primary-cloak, and old-secondary-cloak access formats
<TheLordOfTime> i.e. if we see the -irc access list, you see ubuntu/member/* and ubuntu.member.*
<IdleOne> point is that channels are being harassed for far longer then should be allowed IMO
<jussi> TheLordOfTime: ahh yes, those need fixing
<Pici> I thought we updated those somewhere...
<TheLordOfTime> jussi:  indeed, and preferably globally, there's a few other channels still having that
<AlanBell> so what would be the correct mask?
<TheLordOfTime> AlanBell:  for newer secondary cloak formats (as an example, mine),
<Pici> ubuntu/* and ubuntu.* should cover everything
<TheLordOfTime> ^ that
<TheLordOfTime> or rather for the secondary format...
<TheLordOfTime> */ubuntu.*
<Pici> er, right
<AlanBell> Pici: can you take that one, needs fixing in -meeting and -irc for starters
<Pici> sure
<AlanBell> I will only get the mask wrong
<AlanBell> #action pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels
<meetingology> ACTION: pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels
<jussi> Id also like to have the discussion/decision about #ubuntu-discus
<jussi> err
<jussi> #ubuntu-discuss
<jussi> #ubuntu-discus could be fun though :D
<AlanBell> IdleOne: can we start by finding channels that lack ubuntuirccouncil and see if we can just fix them one by one?
<AlanBell> maybe search with alis for #ubuntu-* having more than 10 people in the channel and check the access lists
<IdleOne> AlanBell: sure but it won't help solve the problem. What i am suggesting is lightning the load for the IRCC
<topyli> i'm still a bit sceptical about -discuss. we have topical channels and -ot
<AlanBell> having a second account for op access across other channels is a bit of a big topic for the any other business section IdleOne :)
<Tm_T> is
<jussi> topyli: I think it is a very topical channel - its for discussion of specifically ubuntu related things that dont fit into #ubuntu's supportarea
<Tm_T> agree with AlanBell, needs some preparation that discussion
<IdleOne> AlanBell: indeed. I brought it up, you folks can shoot the idea around and make a decision. let us know at some point before December :)
<AlanBell> I like the idea of #ubuntu-discuss as a place for on-topic non support discussions
<IdleOne> isn't that what -ot is for?
<AlanBell> and somewhere that Ubuntu marketing materials from LoCos and Canonical can direct people to
<jussi> ubuntu in the news, improvements to ubuntu, etc etc
<Tm_T> I like the idea of #ubuntu-offtopic as aplace for all non-support discussion that is suitable to our community spirit
<IdleOne> on topic non support
<topyli> jussi: that's -ot IMO
<jussi> IdleOne: no, -ot is a break room type area, for just relaxing
<AlanBell> so why is it called "off topic"?
<IdleOne> jussi: but it can also be for cool ubuntu news and stuff
<topyli> jussi: i disagree :)
<Pici> I'd like to see some folks willing to staff -discuss that will actually be able to answer questions before we set it up
<jussi> topyli: topic says so :P
<Tm_T> AlanBell: good question, similar channels on other communities are called cafes etc
<jussi> Pici: hrm?
<topyli> AlanBell: historical reasons. it was created to move non-support away from #ubuntu back in 2005
<Pici> i.e. not all us ops are knee deep in Ubuntu to know enough to respond to everything .
<AlanBell> Tm_T: yes, a community cafe or something sounds about right
<topyli> forums have a community cafe
<topyli> so that would fit
<Tm_T> that's pretty much what our -ot is
<IdleOne> it sounds like another off topic channel
<Pici> Isn't that what community-team is for?
 * topyli is defensive of -ot :)
<Tm_T> Pici: good point
<jussi> Pici: nah, community team is for jono to organise calls :P
<AlanBell> ok, so maybe community cafe is more what offtopic is
<Pici> No.. thats what he uses it for, but its also where the community teams coordinate things
<AlanBell> Canonical sent out a bunch of emails a while back relating to ubuntu phones or Ubuntu for Android asking people to "join the conversation in #ubuntu"
<topyli> my sauna is getting cold :(
<AlanBell> which I had to point out to them was not really what #ubuntu was all about
<jussi> AlanBell: exactly the type of discussion we want in -discuss.
<Tm_T> I wish -ot would be in shape for that kind of use
<Pici> A lot of people use -ot as a place to relax, they don't want to have to deal with that sort of stuff in there.
<topyli> ubuntu phones an ubuntu for android have nothing to do with the community afaik, and nobody knows nothing about them...
<AlanBell> and no, I don't think #ubuntu-offtopic is an appropriate place to direct people to, partly because the name is weird for that kind of thing, and partly because the conversations are a bit random at times
<jussi> I really think that -ot isnt for that, its not somewhere we send people for that type of discussion. its not that it cant happen in -ot, but that its nice to have a dedicates area
<AlanBell> topyli: not entirely true, but anyhow, this is a general point about marketing Ubuntu
<Tm_T> topyli: ...so best option is no channel in that case
<Pici> So, instead of going around in circles.... do we want to trial this?
<topyli> well, canonical can set one up
<Pici> or?
<AlanBell> sabdfl's response was that perhaps they should direct people to askubuntu.com and not IRC at all
<topyli> Tm_T: iirc #ubuntuone is working fine
<jussi> Pici: I would like to trial it
<AlanBell> I would like to trial it
<jussi> AlanBell: you guys want to have a vote? ;)
<Pici> AlanBell: unfortunately, sabdfl has a bit of a history of not exactly getting what we do.
<Tm_T> topyli: yup, because there's canonical folks answering
<topyli> we can trial it, see if people will join when encouraged, and what becomes of it
<topyli> (-discuss i mean)
<Pici> Worst thing that happens is that its a bust and we end up forwarding it to somewhere else.
<topyli> yep
<AlanBell> ok, lets have a little vote on this
<Tm_T> true, but I'm bit worried of the idea that Canonical points people to us and we have to clean up the mess, to put it bluntly
<jussi> ops should also direct people who have that kind of discussion in #ubuntu to there as well
<AlanBell> #vote set up a #ubuntu-discuss channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions of Ubuntu as a trial to be reviewed at a later date
<meetingology> Please vote on: set up a #ubuntu-discuss channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions of Ubuntu as a trial to be reviewed at a later date
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<DJones> What area's of the community would you staff it from? core ops, members, canonical employee's, community-team etc?
<topyli> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from topyli
<AlanBell> #voters AlanBell Pici topyli Tm_T
<meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell Pici Tm_T topyli
<jussi> DJones: all of the above ?:D
<AlanBell> +1
<Pici> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
<meetingology> +1 received from Pici
<DJones> jussi: Agreed, it would have to be a mixture
<Tm_T> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Tm_T
<topyli> i suspect jussi would like to set it up :)
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: set up a #ubuntu-discuss channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions of Ubuntu as a trial to be reviewed at a later date
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Pici> I can think of a few folks that would at least be willing to idle there and answer questions
<IdleOne> I'm still not sure about the idea but I'll be idle in there and happy o help out
<AlanBell> great
<topyli> would be nice to lure some canonical staff there
<AlanBell> ok, any more stuff?
<AlanBell> five
<AlanBell> four
<AlanBell> three
<AlanBell> two
<Pici> Is someone willing to send out a mail to the list so that the rest of the folks not present today will know about it?
<Pici> or... will the meeting notes be enoughj
<AlanBell> yeah, I will do that
<AlanBell> one
<Pici> AlanBell: great, thaks.
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Jun 24 19:30:38 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-24-17.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-24-17.59.html
<Pici> I need new fingers today.
<AlanBell> thanks everyone
<topyli> i suppose the meeting minutes will take care of it
<IdleOne> Thank you.
<topyli> thanks all, i'm off to sauna :)
<Tm_T> yay, I voted on IRCC meeting, did I win something?
<IdleOne> yes, responsibility
<topyli> Tm_T: a trophy in the ubuntu accomplishments game!
<Tm_T> topyli: ooooooo shiny!
<AlanBell> IdleOne: does that come with great power?
<IdleOne> it does peter
<IdleOne> it does.
<Pici> heh
<topyli> haha
<Tm_T> IdleOne: I would have expected that even without IRCC position
 * AlanBell wonders off to get cake
<Seveas> Pici, ?
<IdleOne> Seveas: you have been blamed during a meeting and were given ample time to respond. meeting is now over and your opinion no longer matters. Thank you for playing.
 * IdleOne hugs Seveas :)
 * Seveas slaps IdleOne 
<Seveas> what did I get the blame for this time?
<IdleOne> BT
<Seveas> British Telecom?
<IdleOne> bad taste
<IdleOne> lol
<IdleOne> the ban Tracker
<Seveas> is that still in use?
<IdleOne> heh, yeah
<Seveas> it was falling over years ago already
<Seveas> surprised it hasn't yet
<IdleOne> it has been given a cane but is limping badly now
<Seveas> you've had years to replace it, blame the lazy buggers who didn't
<Seveas> or the muppets who made me quit :-)
<IdleOne> name calling is not going to help us get a better ban tracker
<Seveas> nope, someone will need to write one
<Seveas> and it ain't gonna be Seveas
<IdleOne> if interested and have the spare time talk to AlanBell and Pici about helping them out with this, also m4v
<Seveas> nope, not even a little bit
<IdleOne> :(
<IdleOne> Just so you know I do appreciate that you did write it in the first place. I think we all do.
<IdleOne> We tease you because you got that thick skin :)
<Seveas> sure...
<IdleOne> How you been, any kids yet?
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-17
<smartboyhw> Noskcaj10, I will review your testcase branches post-lunch.
<smartboyhw> rather, post-piano lesson...
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 17 16:32:56 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Stefan Bader (smb) provided debdiffs for precise-raring for xen. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Thanks!
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<chrisccoulson> hi
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I will finish the preliminary install audit of the phablet image this week
<jdstrand> I have some pending updates
<jdstrand> and need to review sbeattie's deliverables for the month and plan for getting them finished since he is on holiday
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> am currently testing an embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> and will write a test for libraw
<mdeslaur> will go down the list of updates after that
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it
<mdeslaur> uh...who's usually after steve... tyhicks?
<tyhicks> yep
<tyhicks> I'm currently drafting an email to the apparmor list to push the dbus syntax discussions along
<tyhicks> I hope that we can come to a decision on that and I can make the parser changes for that this week
 * sarnold dons asbestos ..
<jdstrand> so
<jdstrand> with sbeattie out, I wonder if we can actually take a decision
<tyhicks> I'll also be going through my todo list of trivial things that needs to be fixed/improved in the dbus and apparmor packages as we get closer to upstreaming those and sticking them in the archive
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I expected more people to chime into your question on proposal 3 vs 4
<jdstrand> me too :\
<tyhicks> jdstrand: but, I feel like there's still a lean towards 3
<tyhicks> which is sbeattie's proposal
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jdstrand> because that didn't happen and steve is on vacation, I don't think we can take a decision and complete that work item
<jdstrand> wait
<tyhicks> ah
<tyhicks> sorry
<jdstrand> before we get to jjohansen
<jdstrand> jjohansen: opinion? ^
<jjohansen> jdstrand: well likely not, but we will see how things go. I don't think steve cares so much about 3 vs 4
<jdstrand> huh, 4 seems so radically different I would think there would be an opinion
<jjohansen> but if we are leaning towards 3 and since it is his proposal modified, maybe
<jdstrand> but I don't want to stall out for weeks either
<jdstrand> my feeling is that as upstream, we shouldn't take the decision
<jjohansen> jdstrand: don't worry I can throw enough fuel on the fire
<jdstrand> jjohansen: I'm afraid of said fuel :P
<jdstrand>  my feeling is that as upstream, we shouldn't take the decision without steve
<jdstrand> but, for Ubuntu I think we should revise our stance on pushing a syntax that may change
<jjohansen> I think that we will just have to push something that may change
<jjohansen> but lets get it to where it likely won't
<jdstrand> in others words, let's get as far as we can on the syntax as we can without steve (like tyhicks said), then push that into the archive (or at least the ppa) so that these code bits are in before feature freeze and getting some testing
<tyhicks> I think that makes sense
<jdstrand> then when he gets back, we can see what he objects to (if anything), then adjust before committing upstream. then after committing to upstream, do another upload to ubuntu
<tyhicks> that's reasonable
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, jjohansen: what do you think?
<jjohansen> jdstrand: I think its the only thing we can reasonable do given the circumstance
<mdeslaur> I didn't follow what the issue was, so I have no current opinion
<jdstrand> ok, then let's plan on that
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks
<jdstrand> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I'll be working on backporting apparmor for the phablet kernels, an email to push the syntax discussion along (or at least ignite the arguing again), hopefully release 2.8.2 and then back to working ipc
<jjohansen> s/working/working on/
 * jjohansen just wishes it was all working
<mdeslaur> \o/ phablet kernels
<jjohansen> thats it for me sarnold your up
<sarnold> I'm in my happy place this week, though I've got some leftover packages from community to finish: stunnel4 (I want another two manual tests before shipping) and ruby-openid (no idea how to test, asking ckuerst for ideas..)
<sarnold> the patch for ruby-openid looked simpled enough, it's probably fine even without a test, but just 'it loads' is a little unsatisfying.
<sarnold> I'm looking forward t othrowing rocks at hornets's nests^W^W^W^W the upcoming dbus responses... I'm mostly happy with #3 but want to make sure that we're not missing something better.
<sarnold> I'm hopeful for some patch review from jjohansen or tyhicks this week, but if not, I'll pick up an update
<sarnold> I think that's it for me; chrisccoulson, you're up :)
<chrisccoulson> w00t
<chrisccoulson> so, last week we got a flash update, and i did some more work on our chromium API
<chrisccoulson> i've scheduled a meeting tomorrow afternoon to discuss that btw :)
<chrisccoulson> i shall be doing more work on that this week, and we'll likely get chromium published too (yay!)
<jdstrand> sarnold: regarding options against #3-- not to worry, I'll be happy to shoot those down too
<jdstrand> sarnold: :P (j/k ;)
<sarnold> jdstrand: woo :)
 * jdstrand hugs sarnold 
<sarnold> chrisccoulson: oh man, that's awesome. :)
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: chromium updates! /me rubs his eyes
<chrisccoulson> also, i'll get builds for next weeks firefox update before the end of the week
 * jdstrand hugs chrisccoulson too :)
<chrisccoulson> so it's going to be a fun end to the week ;)
<chrisccoulson> thanks :)
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lib3ds.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tryton-server.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libphp-jpgraph.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/osc.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/magics++.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 17 17:05:33 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-16.32.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-16.32.html
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<tyhicks> thanks
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<jdstrand> sure thing :)
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
 * barry waves
<Laney> lo
<tumbleweed> hi
<tumbleweed> we have apologies from ScottK, so I guess I'm chair
<tumbleweed> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 17 19:02:03 2013 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<tumbleweed> can someone else volunteer to chair if I have network trouble again / have to run off? I'll handle the minutes etc.
 * barry can
<tumbleweed> thanks
<tumbleweed> #chair barry
<meetingology> Current chairs: barry tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<tumbleweed> barry to send outcome of sweetshark ppu vote
<barry> done
<tumbleweed> everyone read and amend http://pad.ubuntu.com/dmb-ppu-membership-proposal, and sign up for the implementation tasks
<tumbleweed> Laney: care to drive this?
<Laney> rather micahg did if he's here
<tumbleweed> ah, of course
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> (sorry, just got out of another meeting, it's that kind of day...)
<Laney> :(
<Laney> ok, seems not
<Laney> so I think we're all agreed on the principle
<Laney> that we shouldn't always require membership contributions
<Laney> err wtf
<Laney> membership levels of involement from new developers
<Laney> the remaining questions are about precisely where we should set the new boundaries
<Laney> like:
<Laney>  - which, if any, packagesets should this apply to?
<Laney>  - should it be open to all PPU?
<Laney> and there's questions about how to design the application procedure (should considering membership be implicit?)
<barry> Laney: i wonder if we can start small and just apply it to ppu and not package sets (although there may be some overlap, but ignore that for now)
<Laney> ah, I think it's non-controversial enough that we can deal with it all at once
<Laney> and one thing I thought of is that we should probably say that all devs need to have signed the CoC I suppose
 * bdrung nods.
<tumbleweed> our membership-monitoring thing already enforces CoC for all uploaders IIRC
<Laney> right, but that requirement is implicit because of membership
<Laney> we just need to say it
<stgraber> barry: I don't see much of a point to distinguish between PPU and packageset as the concerns at least for me are similar. e.g. I'd be oposed to give PPU to xserver-xorg to a non-member just as much as I'd to give xorg packageset rights to a non-member. Packagesets indeed are just a level of abstraction on top of PPU, so the two should be treated the same way.
<micahg-work> I would think that CoC needs to apply to uploaders as well
<Laney> i don't think it's a controversial suggestion - the smallest tweak of the lot of them really ...
<Laney> let's take the packageset question
<micahg-work> it's a standard for interaction with the community, not just a prerequisite for membership
<Laney> I saw we just treat packagesets as a convenience aggregating PPU together
<micahg-work> well, that's one type
<Laney> but there are 'flavour' packagesets which are somewhat different
<micahg-work> right, that's the other
<tumbleweed> and, package sets that consist of many (or entirely of) seeded packages
<micahg-work> umm...well, I see that as one of the two other cases
<tumbleweed> they have a lot in common with flavour packagesets, without necessarily being flavour packagesets
<micahg-work> tumbleweed, example pleasE?
<micahg-work> flavor packagesets imply project level involvement
<tumbleweed> core was mentioned in the discussion earlier. xorg?
<stgraber> core, desktop-core, xorg, ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server, ...
<stgraber> we have a few of those
<micahg-work> core packageset isn't a packageset for these purposes IMHO, that would be core-dev
<Laney> I can't imagine entertaining an application for the first two
<Laney> not without other changes anyway
<micahg-work> right
<micahg-work> the last 2 are flavors
<micahg-work> xorg has seeded content, but that's aggregate PPU IMHO
<tumbleweed> and we'd be unlikley to give a new person upload access to it. But conceputally, it probably doesn't require membership
<Laney> right
<barry> well, one way it could work is that the general rule is membership is not necessary for ppu.  then we have a black list of packages for which membership *is* required.  then if any of those packages appear in a package-set, the set is also blacklisted.  it means the level of check/control is at the package level
<Laney> haha
<micahg-work> I'm not sure about which problem we're trying to solve here
<bdrung> would having all main packages in the blacklist too restrict?
<Laney> yes
<tumbleweed> micahg-work: making it clear to applicants whether they need membership or not
<micahg-work> If we are trusting them with upload rights for these important packages, we're inherently trusting them not to break stuff
<micahg-work> tumbleweed, no, I mean the issue of packagesets like xorg requiring membership
<tumbleweed> yeah, agreed with you
<micahg-work> having membership shouldn't improve that "trust" any
<Laney> Right, we're not lowering any technical requirements here
<Laney> so if they know everything they need to to upload then I don't see any need to require s&s on top of that
<micahg-work> and if we're worried someone's going to break the archive during a milestone or what not, we probably shouldn't be giving them upload rights in the first place
<tumbleweed> ok, flavour packagesets?
<micahg-work> flavor packagesets have project level scope IMHO and should require membership (in that we want flavors integrated into the main Ubuntu community and not islands amongst themselves)
<tumbleweed> yeah, my feeling too
<Laney> same
<Laney> for the same reason we'll continue requiring it for motu/core-dev
<tumbleweed> can we vote on this proposal, or is there anything else we need to hash out?
<bdrung> which criteria do we want to use for requiring significant & sustainable contribution?
<micahg-work> stgraber, how do you feel about all this?
<stgraber> micahg-work: still not too happy about opening the possiblity of the DMB granting upload rights to critical packages without requiring membership. I know that the current DMB probably is reasonable about it, but I'm not thrilled about the documented new process being that open.
<Laney> I guess I don't feel that membership is where concerns about individual developers are likely to be
<Laney> it's going to be at their technical judgement
<micahg-work> right, that's how I feel as well
<stgraber> well, I personally tend to like people who have upload rights to packages installed by default on my system to have been around for at least a whole cycle
<tumbleweed> I don't want non-member developers to be come a norm
<micahg-work> stgraber, we can make being around a whole cycle a requirement without requiring membership (not requiring significant or sustained, just the time period)
<tumbleweed> would we be prepared to limit this to entirely non-main package (-set)s ?
<stgraber> so I'm happy to grant non-member PPU to some upstream dev maintaining their package in universe, but I'd prefer to have the process restricted in a way that ensures that
<Laney> I think that any DMB the community has confidence in will be rigorous enough
<stgraber> micahg-work: then I think I'd be happy with that
<Laney> what is 'being around'?
<Laney> time from first upload to application?
<micahg-work> we already require understanding of the release schedule for upload rights
<tumbleweed> being around a whole cycle, but not a member doesn't sound like a common scenario
<Laney> indeed
<micahg-work> Laney, well, either that or first contribution (bzr included)
<stgraber> Laney: either first upload or testimonial from a current dev that the applicant has been anoying them for over 6 months
<micahg-work> just being exposed to the release process
<tumbleweed> how about if instead of requiring non-main, we added a sentence to the effect of: Upload rights to core (seeded) packages will require sustained experience in the project (usually meaning membership)?
<bdrung> +1
 * tumbleweed isn't convinced that membership from forums would make us happy about upload rights to xorg, though :P
<Laney> fine, but I don't see the point in singling packages out like that
<Laney> I'd rather make explicit that we'll require a level of trust that is appropriate for the packages in question
<micahg-work> tumbleweed, right, that's the catch, you can get membership for a lot of different things
<Laney> so nethack not so much, binutils perhaps a bit more
<micahg-work> Laney, I think that's fair
<Laney> which is of course what happens already
<micahg-work> right
<tumbleweed> Laney: the level of trust expectation is already there
<tumbleweed> level of trust doesn't mean experience of release process, which is what stgraber seems concerned about
<micahg-work> tumbleweed, it does to some extent
<micahg-work> especially WRT seeded packages
<micahg-work> it's one of the components
<Laney> well it doesn't say "you have to have been around for X months" indeed
<Laney> but the DMB has to convince itself
 * Laney shrugs
<micahg-work> I'm fine with explicit vagueness if it solves the problem
<Laney> if this is what we need to move on then so be it
<tumbleweed> clarity of our expectations would also be useful
<tumbleweed> OK, so while we consider this. What's next
<tumbleweed> mail final wording to TB for signoff?
<tumbleweed> can we get a final wording now? or this this meeting not going to do it for us?
<tumbleweed> we have an applicant to process, too
<Laney> wording of what?
<Laney> an announcement?
<tumbleweed> the proposal, if we want their signoff
<Laney> I guess just edit the pad that I started already to reflect what we decide now
<tumbleweed> ok, I think we should move on now, we can revisit this later
<Laney> then ask the TB to ack/nack it at their meeting
<tumbleweed> remaining action item:
<tumbleweed> laney to update DD-PPU process to say that any ubuntu-dev is eligible
<Laney> yeah sorry didn't do that yet
<tumbleweed> ok, carried
<Laney> but we got an applicant through it anyway
<Laney> so seems ok
<tumbleweed> #topic Louis Bouchard's Contributing Developer application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Louis Bouchard's Contributing Developer application
<tumbleweed> caribou: hi
<caribou> Hello everyone
<caribou> tumbleweed: o/
<tumbleweed> caribou: please introduce your application
<tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LouisBouchard
<caribou> My name is Louis Bouchard
<caribou> I've been working on Ubuntu as my day job for a bit more than 2 years noew
<caribou> but started using ubuntu in 2006 with Edgy
<caribou> I will not repeat what you can read on the Wiki page
<caribou> I come from the dark side of proprietary softwarea long long time ago
<tumbleweed> heh
<caribou> I involvment with Ubuntu is mainly around bug fixing, SRU etc
<caribou> I also do some mentored packaging on the debian side of things
<tumbleweed> great to hear
<caribou> Since my involvment has been regularly increasing with Ubuntu, I thought it was appropriate to apply for UCD
<tumbleweed> I'm afraid I have to run off in a minute, but hopefully barry can continue chairing the meeting for me
<tumbleweed> caribou: when do you expect to be applying for upload rigths?
<caribou> most of my involvment is around Foundation packages, with a bit of work on the kernel side
<caribou> I want to get more exposure with merges and also participate in PlusOne to get more experience
 * barry takes a seat
<barry> caribou: have you scheduled your plus-one yet?
<caribou> no, not yet. I will need some hand-holding in that direction
<caribou> but some of my colleagues have participated a few cycles already
<caribou> so they can help
<barry> caribou: it's a great learning experience
<caribou> barry: that's what I heard, which triggered my interest
<caribou> merging is also something I'm curious about.
<caribou> I see packaging from the debian side of things only right now
<caribou> though it's a rather small package
<caribou> I also think that PlusOne will help me in may daily activities
<caribou> anything else I can outline for you ?
<bdrung> caribou: i saw that makedumpfile is arch restricted. is that intentional?
<caribou> bdrung: there seems to be some issues currently with the ARM side of things
<caribou> bdrung: there is an open Debian bug about it that needs my attention
<caribou> bdrung: aside from that, I think that there is one specific PPC patch laying around that might explain it
<bdrung> caribou: but shouldn't it work on all architectures (besides bugs)?
<caribou> afaik makedumpfile do make some assumptions regarding specific architectures
<caribou> bdrung: as it works in a kexec triggered kernel boot that is somewhat different from a regular boot environment
<bdrung> ah, okay
<caribou> bdrung: that might come from debian's inheritance as well, since I don't think we do specific changes to the package on Ubuntu
<caribou> I see it listed for amd64, i386, ia64 and powerpc only on Debian
<barry> caribou: thanks.  i think we're ready to vote
<barry> #vote should caribou become an ubuntu contributing developer?
<meetingology> Please vote on: should caribou become an ubuntu contributing developer?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<barry> tumbleweed extends a +1
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<Laney> +1
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<barry> and scottk is absent today, so
<barry> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: should caribou become an ubuntu contributing developer?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<barry> caribou: congratulations
<caribou> barry: & everyone else, thank you very much
<caribou> looking forward to see you again for the next step
<Laney> \o/
<barry> caribou: indeed!  enjoy the +1 :)
<caribou> & all the work in the meantime
<Laney> get on that sponsorin' train
<caribou> Laney: will do
<barry> we have no more applicants today
<barry> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<barry> anything else folks want to bring up today?
<Laney> I don't know how we are carrying the PPU thing on
<barry> Laney: i think we have to continue on the mailing list
<Laney> ok
<barry> if there's nothing else, i think we're done
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 17 19:58:38 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-19.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-19.02.html
<Laney> thanks
<caribou> thanks everyone & have a nice rest of the day
<stgraber> thanks
<tumbleweed> caribou: congrats :)
 * ScottK wave belatedly.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-18
<Daviey> o/
<roaksoax> o/
<rbasak> o/
<yolanda> hi
<Daviey> roaksoax, do i understand that you are to be our chair today?
<smoser> o/
<roaksoax> yes
<smb> \o
<arosales> o/
<adam_g_> o/
<roaksoax> so let's get started then
<roaksoax> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 18 16:01:49 2013 UTC.  The chair is roaksoax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<roaksoax> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<roaksoax> (carried over) arosales: create a overview topic bp for servercloud
<arosales> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-s-servercloud-overview.html
<roaksoax> arosales: o/! ^^
<arosales> roaksoax, done
<roaksoax> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-s-servercloud-overview.html
<Daviey> arosales: hurray!
<Daviey> super job.
<roaksoax> moving on: everyone look over blueprints one more time
<roaksoax> so I'm guessing that we all looked at our BP's once again
<roaksoax> moving on
<roaksoax> #action rbasak to follow up on go 1.1. saucy arm issue
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to follow up on go 1.1. saucy arm issue
<roaksoax> rbasak: any updates?
<arosales> sorry for the delay on the topic bp
<Daviey> roaksoax: MAAS is still needing completion ?
<Daviey> smoser: FPI?
<roaksoax> Daviey: needs the user stories
<jamespage> o/
<smoser> hm.
<rbasak> Sorry for the delay. I've just been catching up with infinity in #ubuntu-devel.
<rbasak> His view is that we need to fix golang, and then modify dpkg-shlibdeps to pick up the ELF header slightly differently. So still in progress.
<roaksoax> ok then
<roaksoax> let's move on
<roaksoax> rbasak consider telling hallyn to add a todo item to meeting checklist to remind meeting chair about the wiki page checklist
<rbasak> Is there any particular need that we need this fixed faster than a proper fix? I have a workaround in mind that may work, but we don't want to spend time on it unless there's an urgent need.
<rbasak> Done
<rbasak> I put the reminder at the end of the agenda.
 * smoser moved that from draftingo to review
<Daviey> and approved.
<roaksoax> ok, so let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Saucy Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Saucy Development
<roaksoax> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule
<roaksoax> So I'm guessing that everybody saw the email about the changes in the Release Schedule
<roaksoax> and FF has been moved to BetaFreeze
<roaksoax> any other updates anyone would like to raise, or I shall move on to the release bugs
<roaksoax> #subtopic Release Bugs
<roaksoax> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-s-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<roaksoax> bug #1188788
<ubottu> bug 1188788 in quantum (Ubuntu Raring) "Meta bug for tracking Openstack 2013.1.2 Stable Update" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1188788
<roaksoax> any updates?
<roaksoax> adam_g_: ^^
<roaksoax> zul: ^^
<Daviey> That i believe is blocked on me.
<Daviey> Requires SRU review, was superseded by a security upload
<adam_g_> roaksoax, ya just waiting to get approved out of queue into -proposed
<roaksoax> Awesome. MAAS bugs #1171418 #1171988  are also waiting to be approved
<ubottu> bug 1171418 in MAAS 1.2 "MAAS fails to power up machines when trying to install nodes" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1171418
<roaksoax> bug #1162139
<ubottu> bug 1162139 in mysql-5.5 (Ubuntu Raring) "mysql-5.5 still built using GCC-4.4, should be built with the default GCC" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1162139
<roaksoax> this seems target to raring and should probably be re-targetted to saucy
<roaksoax> any thought
<Daviey> Oh, most certainly
<rbasak> Debian have agreed to drop the gcc-4.4 build dep now.
<rbasak> So we either wait for Debian, or jump ahead.
<roaksoax> rbasak: I believe this would need your verification:
<roaksoax> bug #1173265
<ubottu> bug 1173265 in facter (Ubuntu Raring) "facter fails to run from rebuilt source package" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1173265
<roaksoax> and bug #1170325
<ubottu> bug 1170325 in facter (Ubuntu Raring) "Facter 1.6.X not considering Qemu/KVM virtual type" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1170325
<rbasak> The former is easy to verify: it built.
<rbasak> The latter is trickier. Does anyone have a suitable machine?
<rbasak> I used a hack to test my proposed upload for quantal and raring, but it doesn't work with precise.
<roaksoax> boomer, anyone would like to verify that one?
<roaksoax> in the meantime, bug #1172742
<ubottu> bug 1172742 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Raring) "maas datasource fails if no user-data" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1172742
<roaksoax> smoser: any updates?
<roaksoax> alright I guess he might have stepped out for a bit
<roaksoax> let's move on
<roaksoax> #subtopic Blueprints
<roaksoax> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-saucy/group/topic-saucy-servercloud-overview.html
<roaksoax> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-saucy/group/topic-s-servercloud-overview.html
<roaksoax> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-server-app-banner-updates
<roaksoax> zul: ^^
<roaksoax> yolanda: ^^ any updates?
<zul> no
<smoser> no updates to that bug.
<yolanda> i'm dealing with server banners, mostly with dovecot, bind9
<yolanda> there is a pending MP for dovecot
<roaksoax> alright
<roaksoax> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-juju-2-delivery
<roaksoax> jamespage: any updateS?
<jamespage> roaksoax, not really - Ill be working with the juju team this week to a) get py juju removed from saucy
<jamespage> and by get the latest juju-core uploaded
<roaksoax> \o/
<roaksoax> awesome then!
<roaksoax> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-openstack-charms-ha-v2
<Daviey> jamespage: shall i just go ahead and remove pyjuju now?
<jamespage> yeah
<jamespage> I acked the bug
<Daviey> ta
<roaksoax> on the HA stack side, I discussed with the debian maintainer about the new upstream changes and the things that we would need to consider dropping soonish, and he wasn't so keen on doing it now
<m_3> RIP juju-0.7
<roaksoax> so it seems that we might keep support for older stuff longer, but will be moving the charms to the newer stack options
<roaksoax> should be pretty straight forward though
<roaksoax> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-openstack-hypervisor
<roaksoax> zul: ^^ updates?
<zul> nope
<roaksoax> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-openstack-havana
<zul> working on windows image testing
<roaksoax> zul: ^^
<zul> ill update it today
<roaksoax> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-cloud-archive
<roaksoax> zul: ^^
<roaksoax> err
<roaksoax> jamespage: ^^
<roaksoax> any updates?
<jamespage> I've started on docs for the SRU process
<jamespage> but its still wip - should be done this week
<jamespage> havana cloud archive is open btw
<roaksoax> awesome!
<jamespage> which reminds me - we need a blast on getting everything lined up in staging
<jamespage> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/cloud-archive/havana_versions.html
<Daviey> Users have started asking about Havana in UCA
<jamespage> zul, is that something you can coordinate over the next 24 hrs?
<jamespage> it would be nice to flush something through to proposed on thurs/friday
<zul> jamespage:  yeah im just finishing off quantum fbtfs today
<zul> been distracted with other things
<jamespage> excellent
<roaksoax> alright! Any other BP
<roaksoax> alright! Any other BP that any of you would like to discuss?
<roaksoax> guess not then
<roaksoax> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<roaksoax> any upcoming events?
<Daviey> None. Move on :)
<arosales> not any in the next weeks
<arosales> OSCON is the next up on July 22
<m_3> poolside siesta doesn't count?  harumph
<roaksoax> heh
<arosales> m_3, it does if there is an invite
<arosales> :-)
<roaksoax> ok, let's move on then
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<roaksoax> plars: any updates?
<plars> hi
<plars> yes, one thing I wanted to ask about
<plars> we recently had some issues with lxc and ceph tests
<plars> ceph was supposed to be disabled I think, but the job got accidentally recreated when some jenkins refresh scripts ran
<plars> but had been running fine since then
<plars> but I think I heard that jamespage said that it was flaky and not to be trusted?
<jamespage> yes indeed
<hallyn> yeah it's being pulled
<plars> lxc is working fine again, but it is a similar situation?
<hallyn> plars: no it's not a similar situation
<plars> ok, we'll pull ceph from our scripts that regenerate the jobs too if we're sure we don't want those
<hallyn> plars: the lxc failures i believe were due to either utah or hw problems
<plars> is there no replacement?
<hallyn> plars: I could never reproduce the lxc failures locally
<plars> ok, fair enough
<hallyn> plars: this cycle I want to move the distro lxc tests into upstream, and then probably move them out of utah
<plars> hallyn: you mean as autopkgtests?
<hallyn> not yet sure what i mean
<plars> heh
<hallyn> other than upstream lxc git tree woudl have the tests
<plars> ok, but I still think it would make sense to run them in the image right? to validate what's installed?
<hallyn> somehwere, yes
<hallyn> but it would then amount to pulling down the tree and running make distro-test or something
<plars> ok, just let me know if there are any changes and I'll remove the ceph tests from our script unless there are plans to update/replace them
<hallyn> plars: yup, thx
<plars> that's it from me
<roaksoax> thank you plars
<roaksoax> let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> As mentioned last week the Saucy kernel will move to 3.10. If things go like intended the upload will happen end of this week when dkms testing has been done. Repeat: Saucy kernel will be 3.10. And ogasawara has some more notes on dkms testing...
<Daviey> smb: Do you know where these notes are?
<ogasawara> so I wanted to inquire if the dkms package the server team cares about has been tested?
<Daviey> ogasawara: No.
<smb> Daviey, There ^
<ogasawara> also, could I get that list of dkms packages you guys care about as well?
<ogasawara> as I want to pass that along to QA for the automated testing we're trying to set up
<Daviey> ogasawara: That is super, I will make sure you get the list by EOD>
<Daviey> Thanks.
<ogasawara> Daviey: thanks.  will you guys be able to test with the 3.10 kernel before we upload?
<lifeless> openvswitch-datapath-dkms :)
<ogasawara> Daviey: or should we just plan to upload and deal with any fallout?
<jamespage> lifeless, indeed - that won't work
<jamespage> but I can pick up testing of that
<Daviey> ogasawara: It would be really nice if between kernel and QA team a simple apt-get install openvswitch-datapath-dkms, could be done
<jamespage> (and the fixes)
<ogasawara> Daviey: I was hoping that would be a task you're team would own
<ogasawara> Daviey: and we provide the test kernel
<ogasawara> Daviey: https://launchpad.net/~kernel-ppa/+archive/pre-proposed
<Daviey> ogasawara: I was more hoping that between kernel and QA team it could be done :)
<ogasawara> Daviey: it would appear we are at an impass :)  maybe we can sort off line.
<Daviey> But sure, OK.  But going forwards it would be great if it could be handled between your teams
<ogasawara> Daviey: going forward we indeed will work with QA.  But that will just be for the initial build and install testing.  We'll still look to team and maintainers to fix up any issues.
<Daviey> ogasawara: right, resolving issues we are happy to do
<Daviey> but early warning, would be nice if the issues were fed to us from QA/kernel
<ogasawara> Daviey: so for us to do that now without the automation in place yet, I need your package list
<Daviey> Yes sir.  But sure, OK - this kernel we'll do.. and get serious about automating it between us.
<ogasawara> Daviey: thanks
<Daviey> Superb
<roaksoax> Awesome outcome. Let's move on then!
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report. Just the golang armhf FTBFS in bug 1187722 that is ongoing. Is there any particular need for which we need this fixed faster than the proper fix? I have a workaround in mind that may work, but we don't want to spend time on it unless there's an urgent need.
<ubottu> bug 1187722 in golang (Ubuntu) "dpkg-shlibdeps fails on armhf ELF binaries that do not define architecture specific information" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1187722
<rbasak> I'll assume it can wait for a proper fix then?
<rbasak> Any other questions for me?
<rbasak> Linaro Connect is 8-12 July BTW. I'll be going.
<rbasak> I guess no questions then. Thanks roaksoax!
<roaksoax> thank you!
<roaksoax> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<roaksoax> anyone has something to share with us?
<roaksoax> i guess not
<roaksoax> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<roaksoax> same time and place
<Daviey> Thanks roaksoax
<roaksoax> the next chair according to the list is arosales
<roaksoax> arosales: you';ve been selected to be our chair next week :) Thanks in advance
<roaksoax> I'll end this
<roaksoax> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 18 16:46:28 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-18-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-18-16.01.html
<rbasak> Thanks roaksoax!
<roaksoax> thank you all!
<arosales> roaksoax, thanks for the warning :-)
<arosales> robher, thanks for chairing
<arosales> I mean roaksoax
<arosales> who already left
<arosales> :-)
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 18 17:00:04 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Saucy
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<sconklin> o/
<henrix> o/
<ppisati> o/
<cking> \o
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<smb> \o
<rtg_> o/
<apw> o/
<bjf> o/
<kamal> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Q/master: lp1176977 ("XFS instability on armhf under load") - passed all xfs
<ppisati> tests (tested both on arm and x86), but there's still one patch missing (and
<ppisati> waiting to enter linux-next for 3.11).
<ppisati> */highbank: lp1182637("cpu_offlining fails to run on ARM") - indeed, it was a
<ppisati> firmware issue: updating the node to the last available firmware, made cpu
<ppisati> hotplugging work - lp1185669 ("CPU cores offline and can't be brought back up on
<ppisati> ARM Server card") is probably a dup.
<ppisati> R/master: lp1171582("hvc0 getty causes random hangs"), seems like i can detect
<ppisati> the presence of a jtag console (DBGAUTHSTATUS NSNE bit) and thus attach or not
<ppisati> the xen console to it, i'll give it a try.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || client-1303-power-consumption-testing || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-1305-arm64-bringup        || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || foundations-1305-kernel               || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ||           || mobile-power-management               || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee  || foundations-1303-phablet-kernel-maintenance || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || servercloud-s-virtstack               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Our Saucy unstable branch has been rebased to the latest v3.10-rc6
<ogasawara> upstream kernel.  We unfortunately have still not uploaded yet.  We are
<ogasawara> still awaiting fixups for a few DKMS packages.  We hope to upload by EOW
<ogasawara> or early next week.  In the mean time we have gone ahead and rebased our
<ogasawara> Saucy master branch to the recent v3.9.6 upstream stable kernel and
<ogasawara> uploaded.
<ogasawara> For our phablet kernels we have been investigating some kernel size
<ogasawara> constraints and the modules which we have enabled and built in.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> Thurs June 27 - Alpha 1 (opt in)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin> == 2013-06-18 (7 days) ==
<sconklin> Currently we have 62 CVEs on our radar, with 3 CVEs added and 2 CVEs retired in the last week.
<sconklin> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin> Overall the backlog has increased slightly this week:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<sconklin> Status for the main kernels, until today (Jun. 18):
<sconklin> *   Lucid - Beginning prep;
<sconklin> * Precise - Beginning prep;
<sconklin> * Quantal - Beginning prep;
<sconklin> * Raring  - Beginning prep;
<sconklin> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<sconklin> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<sconklin> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<sconklin> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<sconklin> Future stable cadence cycles:
<sconklin> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 18 17:04:45 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-18-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-18-17.00.html
<sconklin> thanks
<smb> Thanks (quick and painless)
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury! lightnin' quick as always!
<cking> blink
 * Noskcaj is away: school
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-19
<cyphermox> #startmeeting 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 19 11:59:55 2013 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for June 19, 2013.
<cyphermox> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<cyphermox> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<cyphermox> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<cyphermox> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<cyphermox> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<cyphermox> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<cyphermox> #voters cyphermox Pendulum jared freeflying iulian hggdh micahg
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: freeflying
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cyphermox freeflying hggdh iulian jared micahg
<surgemcgee_> Sounds good.
<cyphermox> Now, without any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<cyphermox> #subtopic Pietro Albini (pietro98-albini)
<pietro98-albini> Hello everybody and sorry for my bad english
<pietro98-albini> I'm Pietro Albini, an Italian boy
<pietro98-albini> I start to contribute to Ubuntu in the Italian LoCoTeam managing its website, and in January 2013 I got the LoCo membership
<pietro98-albini> After that I start to write to the LoCo newsletter and triage bugs, but I don't have enough time to triage and I stop some time ago to contribute
<warp10> I already endorsed pietro98-albini on the wiki, but I want to remark his work during the latest italian Debian/Ubuntu Community Conference, where he has proven, once again, to be a cornerstone of the italian community. Keep up the good work, Pietro!
<pietro98-albini> Other I'm an adminstrator of a new service of the LoCo, Chiedi, a "parody" of askubuntu in italian language, but due to sysadmins the service is not start now
<iulian> pietro98-albini: Would you consider restarting that, or is your decision final?
<pietro98-albini> iulian, in LoCo I do a lot of work, and I must study (i'm 14)
<iulian> pietro98-albini: I mean bug triaging.
<pietro98-albini> iulian, I know
<pietro98-albini> Also I start few days ago to moderate Ubuntu-it social network groups/pages
<pietro98-albini> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PietroAlbini
<pietro98-albini> https://launchpad.net/~pietro98-albini
<iulian> You mentioned that you stopped doing that... do you plan to get back on it some time in the future?
<pietro98-albini> iulian, if I have a lot of free time yes
<pietro98-albini> In website team I made lots of pages, and I'm the trainer for newbies
<iulian> pietro98-albini: So your future plan is to keep working with the LoCo team, is that correct?
<pietro98-albini> iulian, yes
<pietro98-albini> iulian, I think Italian LoCo is a fantastic place with wonderful people
 * warp10 nods
<iulian> Great.
<Trevinho> I also can also confirm here that pietro98-albini is doing really an amazing work for the (Italian) ubuntu community... keep up the good work!
<cyphermox> #vote Pietro Albini (pietro98-albini) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Pietro Albini (pietro98-albini) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cyphermox> +1 good LoCo work, though it would be nice to see more involvement in other things too!
<meetingology> +1 good LoCo work, though it would be nice to see more involvement in other things too! received from cyphermox
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<hggdh> +1 Good LoCo, but please look around too ;-)
<meetingology> +1 Good LoCo, but please look around too ;-) received from hggdh
<Xenon_> +1
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<iulian> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from iulian
<amirolahmad> +1
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Pietro Albini (pietro98-albini) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<pietro98-albini> :D
<warp10> pietro98-albini: ^5!
<hggdh> pietro98-albini: welcome :-)
<pietro98-albini> hggdh, thanks :D
<cyphermox> welcome pietro98-albini
<Pendulum> pietro98-albini: congrats and welcome!
<cyphermox> moving on since we have lots of applicants today :)
<cyphermox> #subtopic Mattia Migliorini (deshack)
<pietro98-albini> Thanks everybody :D
<cyphermox> deshack: you there?
<Trevinho> pietro98-albini: welcome abroad! ;)
<deshack> Hi guys, I'm italian too
<Trevinho> aboard*
<pietro98-albini> The italian band :P
<Xenon_> :D
<surgemcgee_> I am encouraged by this atmosphere. Congratulations Pietro.
 * warp10 loves stereotypes and cooks some pizza
<deshack> I contribute to ubuntu-it since July 2012 (starting by contributing to the Translations Team), than became a member of the Website Team in September
<deshack> Now I'm a leader of the Press Team
<deshack> Apart from that, I'm studying Computer Science at the university
<deshack> therefore my highest interest is to become, sooner or later, Ubuntu Developer ;)
<deshack> Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MattiaMigliorini
<deshack> Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~deshack
<ApOgEE> hi all
<iulian> deshack: Thanks.
<cyphermox> #vote Mattia Migliorini (deshack) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Mattia Migliorini (deshack) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<hggdh> +1 good work!
<meetingology> +1 good work! received from hggdh
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> nice work, I especially like the inkscape bug about size units, that seems really weird to me, I'll take a good look at it
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Mattia Migliorini (deshack) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<warp10> deshack: ^5!
<pietro98-albini> deshack, :D
<deshack> cyphermox: thanks :) I don't remember if the suggestions reported there helped
<Xenon_> :D
<cyphermox> deshack: I think so, but it still seems wrong
<Pendulum> deshack: congrats and welcome!
 * warp10 waves an italian flag to celebrate
<cyphermox> #subtopic Amirol Ahmad (amirolahmad)
<amirolahmad> Hello guys
<deshack> cyphermox: yes, I don't think that adjusting the ppi by hand every time helps too much
<cyphermox> amirolahmad: please introduce yourself :)
<deshack> Pendulum: thanks!
<amirolahmad> 2 Italian has pass now for asian turn
<amirolahmad> I am AmirolAhmad from Malaysia
<amirolahmad> I contribute to Malaysia Loco team and been active since 1 and half years ago
<amirolahmad> What I do for loco is i help new members in our FB groups about what Ubuntu is (https://www.facebook.com/groups/ubuntumy/). Please check out my wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AmirolAhmad)
<amirolahmad> And also i'm HAM radio members in Malaysia (9W2PDF) so I heard there is Ubuntu-HAM so i wanted to be there and lets see what i can do for the community
<amirolahmad> Working as System Administrator at my own company (www.osemspace.com) but sometime love to some programming
<amirolahmad> That's all guys
<ApOgEE> amirolahmad is an active member in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team
<hggdh> amirolahmad: first of all, thank you for all your work. But I cannot see any sustained activity that I can verify
<hggdh> amirolahmad: I can see a lot of plans -- future --, but not really past. And we *need* to verify the "sustained" part of the requirement
<amirolahmad> hggdh: note about that.
<hggdh> amirolahmad: so, on my personal view: please come back later, say, half year's time. And make sure you get other people to write testimonials for you
<hggdh> amirolahmad: ideally, other Ubuntu members
<amirolahmad> I've a lot of commitment to do but what can i do is i help newbie in our Ubuntu Malaysia Loco Team in FB page
<hggdh> amirolahmad: I understand, and I appreciate. But "commitment to do" is *not* "sustained work done". And "work done" is one of our requirements
<cyphermox> Indeed
<cyphermox> amirolahmad: I'd like to invite you to re-apply for membership in a few months when you have some more work done in the community, then we'll be more than happy to have this meeting again and add you to the team
<cyphermox> let's continue the meeting
<amirolahmad> Sure and thank you :)
<cyphermox> #subtopic Robert Steckroth (surgemcgee__)
<surgemcgee__> Hello board members and potentials. My name Is Robert Steckroth (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobertSteckroth).
<surgemcgee__> I am asking for Ubuntu Membership and would like to extend some reinforcement of my own.\
<surgemcgee__>  I believe that the results of quality leadership and contributions are in reveled throughout the community which I see and experience everyday.
<surgemcgee__> This is why the Ubuntu Membership is important to me.
<jared> Good evening all, sorry I'm late, I'll be joining in for this candidate
<surgemcgee__> *revealed
<jared> surgemcgee__: Can you tell us when you started working on Ubuntu applications?
<surgemcgee__> Ubuntu application development has been a working endeacour for ~ a year.
<surgemcgee__> I started PySurface (a quickly like application) and then moved into the Touch platform.
<jared> surgemcgee__: I personally am not a developer so I'm not sure on the efforts for the work created, do you interact with other developers much? I would probably have expected a couple more testimonials.
<surgemcgee__> Hmm, I have had small amounts of contacts with Mr. Castro. Also, I am always seeking to bolster a project which I find interesting.
<Pendulum> surgemcgee__: Launchpad says you joined your state's LoCo team about a year ago, have you had any involvement with them?
<surgemcgee__> Regarding your request, I couldeve been more proactive regarding my Wiki page.
<hggdh> what worries me is the "sustained" part of the requirements (very much like the previous candidate)
<surgemcgee__> I have continued a daily interest and contibuted throughout many Ubuntu projects.
<jared> surgemcgee__: the requirement is generally for at least a full cycle (6 months) of significant and sustained contributions so we just need to see it's continued.
<Pendulum> surgemcgee__: is there anyone who can speak to how long you've been contributing? Also, to show us a bit more community involvement (Ubuntu Membership is recognition of being part of the community, as well)
<surgemcgee__> The Stock ticker app was 6 months easy.
<surgemcgee__> Also, my Loco team was not too accessible at the time, while I did put forth effort to contribute.
<jared> surgemcgee__: ok, based on the 5 minutes or so we have to evaluate each candidate I think it's too difficult to prove the sustained aspect of you application at this time.
<hggdh> I agree.
<cyphermox> I concur
<jared> surgemcgee__: my personal opinion is that I would much rather see some more testimonials from those you interact with to show significant and sustained contributions as the launchpad profile really doesn't explain most of that
<cyphermox> Let's move on to the next applicant, since we're just about out of time
<hggdh> surgemcgee__: consider returning in, say, half year's time, please
<surgemcgee__> I do, thgank you for your time.
<cyphermox> err, mzanetti doesn't seem to be here, so I don't think there are other applicants after all
<hggdh> ah well.
<hggdh> So, I guess we are done, right?
<cyphermox> yeah
<jared> surgemcgee__: it's not that it's possible you've already contributed enough but it's not really apparent enough for us to make a decision on
<jared> surgemcgee__: also happy to discuss further or give a pre-evaluation next time if you think that would be useful
<cyphermox> Thanks everyone for showing up, and I look forward to seeing re-applications later on :)
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 19 12:58:48 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-19-11.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-19-11.59.html
<mzanetti> hey, sorry I'm late :/
<cyphermox> mzanetti: oops
<cyphermox> mzanetti: would you mind showing to the next meeting?
<cyphermox> we've already ended this one, and people on the board had to leave for various reasons -- we're out of our time slot too, even though I don't think there are further meetings for now
<cyphermox> (for the next hour or so I mean)
<mzanetti> cyphermox: sure... Its my fault I missed it... Seems I have to wait for another month then tho
<cyphermox> mzanetti: or you may go to the 2200UTC meeting if that works for your timezone
<cyphermox> it's not today, but it's in two weeks instead of in a month
<mzanetti> cyphermox: thats 00:00 around here... should be ok. not sure about it yet
<cyphermox> ok
 * slangasek waves
<stokachu> /o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 19 15:02:59 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> doko bdmurray ev xnox cjwatson stokachu jodh slangasek stgraber barry
<slangasek> doko: moin :)
 * barry is not sure if he wins or loses
<doko> wow, first time the first after years ...
<doko> - chase down a regression in GCC 4.8 and lto
<doko> - build a gcj cross compiler
<doko> - cross build gcj, should have a gcj for aarch64 soonish
<doko> - next step is trying to cross build openjdk
<doko> - looked into issues with the armhf gcc cross builds (multilib related)
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> modifications to the phased-updater code
<bdmurray> modifications to phased-updater code to show 0% and what the % before was
<bdmurray> resolved an issue with the package crash rate check not working in the phased-updater
<bdmurray> merge proposal for package-rate-of-crashes returning a number for the difference
<bdmurray> reported errors bug 1191182 regarding &version being appended when choosing &period
<ubottu> bug 1191182 in Errors "choosing a period on the main page appends a version to the query" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191182
<bdmurray> worked with thedac to update errors to r435
<bdmurray> investigation into and resolution of oops querying bucketversionsystems2
<bdmurray> irc discussion with cjwatson and infinity regarding sru-release and copy package
<bdmurray> reported bug 1192286 regarding phased update percentage and copy package
<ubottu> bug 1192286 in Launchpad itself "Allow phased update percentage to be set when copying a package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1192286
<bdmurray> reported bug 1192332 regarding SRU of update-manager
<ubottu> bug 1192332 in update-manager (Ubuntu Raring) "SRU of change to phased updater percentage calculation to consider source not binary packages" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1192332
<bdmurray> updated meta-release file on changelogs for bug 1173209
<ubottu> bug 1173209 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Saucy) "Prompted about New Release for 13.04 again after dist-upgrade and a restart" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1173209
<bdmurray> approval of Fabio Marconi in ubuntu bug control
<bdmurray> tested bug 1175637
<ubottu> bug 1175637 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "Kernel updates are being marked as manually installed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1175637
<bdmurray> â done
<ev> - Bringing back the diagnostics page to activity-log-manager. It was
<ev>   accidentally dropped as they rewrote the build system (most of the code is
<ev>   Vala, ours is C):
<ev>   https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/activity-log-manager/add-whoopsie-back/+merge/169855
<ev>   - Spent some time updating the packaging, only to find that Jeremy had done
<ev>     much the same thing.
<ev> - Some hand holding of the two back population jobs we've been trying to get
<ev>   completed the past few weeks (we've had to kill them a few time due to high
<ev>   load - the cluster is at 3TB per node, which is putting too much on each
<ev>   machine).
<ev>   - The first improves our calculation of the average errors per calendar day
<ev>     graph, and will be finished in just under a day:
<ev>     https://bugs.launchpad.net/errors/+bug/1069827
<ev>     https://bugs.launchpad.net/daisy/+bug/1077122
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1069827 in Errors "Error rate incorrectly spikes with any influx of machines" [High,Confirmed]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077122 in Errors "Machine weighted at 100% 89 days after last report, 0% 90 days after" [High,Confirmed]
<ev>     - This will need to be run a second time for the data to be accurate.
<ev>   - The second rebuilds the table of releases and binary package versions for
<ev>     each problem ("Package versions with this error"), and will finish by the
<ev>     weekend:
<ev>     https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/4eebfa6d3f91386f752207eeaf410b5a8ce81081
<ev>     - There will be a second phase to this that adjusts the counters based on
<ev>       the data generated here.
<ev> - Firefighting the Cassandra nodes being critically out of space.
<ev>   - Spent an evening digging through the database, looking for invalid data,
<ev>     but it only forms significantly less than 0.05% of all the error reports.
<ev>   - Tom agrees that purging unneeded data wont gain us much. Liam is now full
<ev>     time on bringing up Cassandra nodes in Prodstack.
<ev> - Code review for Brian.
<ev> - More discussion on enabling error reporting on Ubuntu Server.
<ev> - Delivered the amended NDA for hunting security vulnerabilities to Kees.
<ev> - Added revno headers to lp:errors with added support to the deployment
<ev>   scripts.
<ev> - Added Hadoop support to lp:error-tracker-deployment \o/. Further deployments
<ev>   to stagingstack/prodstack will have a Hadoop namenode and jobtracker, as well
<ev>   as a datanode, tasktracker, and pig shell on each Cassandra node.
<ev> - Moved to Cassandra 1.2 in the default (the settings we use for Tarmac and our
<ev>   own testing) lp:error-tracker-deployment deployment. Built
<ev>   libcassandra-dpkgversiontype-java for C* 1.2.5 and verified everything still
<ev>   works. Hooray for integration tests.
<ev> - Slowly working on accounting for realistic SLAs in the services we build and
<ev>   depend on. First up, handling Swift 503s:
<ev>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/daisy/+bug/1191859
<ev> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1191859 in Daisy "Provide fallback for core storage" [High,Confirmed]
<xnox> * gcc-android toolchain: dropped clang/llvm/compiler-rt build-deps,
<xnox>   building phablet image using that toolchain. Grouper image builds,
<xnox>   now trying to boot it.
<xnox> * upstart-jobs: forwarded dbus, at. Also filed
<xnox>   http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=712763 as
<ubottu> Debian bug 712763 in upstart "upstart: implementing Debian Policy Â§9.11.1" [Normal,Open]
<xnox>   alternative way to implement policy compliant lsb init scripts.
<xnox> * uploaded upstart raring SRU with full-serialisation (lossless
<xnox>   stateful rexec) and reload-configuration fixes. SRU team, please
<xnox>   review.
<xnox> * uploaded ubiquity update with u1 bugfixes and UI tweaks, drop of
<xnox>   gksudo.
<xnox> done.
<cjwatson> A few fixups for build failures in main.
<cjwatson> foundations-1305-arm64-bringup: Discussions re simulator and next stages of bringup.
<cjwatson> Backported upstream parted patches for bug 1187560.
<ubottu> bug 1187560 in parted (Ubuntu) "parted rejects GPT as corrupt, kernel + gdisk think it's ok" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1187560
<cjwatson> community-s-autopkgtesting: Finally attached autopkgtest to proposed-migration with sticky tape and chicken wire.  There are still a couple of bits to clean up before I announce it to developers but it's mostly there and working.
<cjwatson> Disentangled signon-ui vs. powerpc vs. proposed-migration problems.
<cjwatson> foundations-1305-click-package: Fleshed out work items.  Working on finalising click-package file format and polishing prototype in preparation for upload to saucy.
<cjwatson> ..
<stokachu> - released sosreport 3.0
<stokachu> - rest of my time spent building and productizing a security auditing tool
<stokachu> - no bugs on fire
<stokachu> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray: AIUI bug #1192286 is critical path for rollout of phased-updates now... do we know when that might get fixed?
<ubottu> bug 1192286 in Launchpad itself "Allow phased update percentage to be set when copying a package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1192286
<cjwatson> jodh is still on holiday, so it's slangasek
<bdmurray> slangasek: no, I don't know when it might get fixed
<cjwatson> slangasek: I can probably look at it soon - asked bdmurray to file it since I kept forgetting
<cjwatson> will have a crack at it tomorrow since I think I was last to touch that code anyway
<cjwatson> William didn't entirely explode at my suggested fix
<slangasek> xnox: can I suggest discussing 712763 on debian-devel as well?  I dunno how the lsb maintainer feels about it, but I would certainly like to see some kind of consensus so we don't have to keep adding more interfaces to lsb-functions :)
<xnox> slangasek: ack.
<slangasek> ah, it is me, isn't it?
<slangasek> new rule, people have to paste as slow as I read :P
<slangasek>  * partner work: centrifydc update published to precise, then pulled again
<slangasek>  * working with the phonedations team for flipping the container
<slangasek>  * catching us up on the SRU queue (python, unity in precise)
<slangasek>   * had a meeting, got consensus that we want to try to repartition
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek>   * working to support repartitioning on install so we can use the system partition; hard to make parted happy with the non-standard GPTs that come on some of these devices (grouper)
<slangasek>   * testing the working container-flipped install on grouper (yay!), but noticing kernel output that shouldn't be there... talked to ogra, filed some meddlesome bugs on the kernel package, have been superseded by ogra's more correct fix
<slangasek> stokachu:
<ogra_> slangasek, its gone with the new kernel
<ogra_> fbdev is ripped out again (as it should be)
<slangasek> ogra_: great :)
<slangasek> ogra_: so do I need to re-bootstrap to get that, or just flash the latest armel+grouper?
<slangasek> stgraber:
<ogra_> slangasek, since the archive is wonky today i cant build an image atm ... waiting for it to sort itself
<slangasek> (sorry, not stokachu )
<stgraber> Blueprint-related work:
<stgraber>  - Image based updates (BLUEPRINT: foundations-1305-image-based-updates)
<stgraber>   - Production server is online, just need to be populated now
<stgraber>   - Added config file and config file parsing to the server code
<stgraber>   - Added support for channels.json and index.json generation
<stgraber>   - Added code to publish device keyring and images
<slangasek> ogra_: wonky how?
<stgraber>   - Updated the tests to keep us at 100% code coverage
<stgraber>   - Had a couple of meetings on the subject
<stgraber>   - Clarified some details in the specs
<stgraber> Other work:
<ogra_> slangasek, signon-ui issues
<slangasek> the archive is not supposed to be wonky ever
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>   - Spent a day or so implementing a working prototype of the loop-mounted system partition design.
<stgraber>   - Some more discussions on partitioning and containers
<stgraber>  - LXC
<stgraber>   - Usual code reviews
<stgraber>  - Patch pilot on Monday
<stgraber>  - Processed a bunch of ~ubuntu-archive bugs
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - TODAY: Test my loop-mounted setup on grouper (nexus7)
<stgraber>  - TODAY: Write some internal wiki documentation of the key infrastructure for system-image
<stgraber>  - TODAY: File an RT to get the new keys and keyrings generated
<cjwatson> slangasek: proposed-migration doesn't consider component mismatches (and it would be really hard to make it do so)
<stgraber>  - THIS WEEK: Update livefs infrastructure to generate .tar.xz files for the touch rootfs (probably not published to cdimage.ubuntu.com though but only on system-image.ubuntu.com)
<xnox> slangasek: components-mismatched wonky.
<stgraber>  - THIS WEEK: Finish self-rebuilds feature implementation on nusakan
<stgraber>  - Integrate the system-image module with cdimage to publish updates to the daily channel as they appear
<stgraber>  - Write some tools for manual actions on system-image (manage channels, manage keyrings, manually publish updates, ...)
<stgraber>  - Process some pending merges (ifupdown and resolvconf)
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> I won't be working on Monday (24th of June) as it's a public holiday here (but may still make it to the release call and TB meeting).
<stgraber>  
<slangasek> cjwatson, xnox: ah, right - sigh
<stgraber> (DONE)
<barry> ubuntu: LP: #1094218, LP: #1167177, LP: #1191979
<xnox> slangasek: blame yet another copy of webkit in the archive ;-)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1094218 in lsb (Ubuntu Raring) "lsb_release crashed with IOError in getstatusoutput(): [Errno 10] No child processes (called by teamviewerd)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094218
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1167177 in python-defaults (Ubuntu) "package python-dev 2.7.3-0ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: tentative de remplacement de Â« /usr/lib/pkgconfig/python2.pc Â», qui appartient aussi au paquet python2.7 2.7.3-0ubuntu3.1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1167177
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1191979 in Ubuntu system image "A bogusly signed blacklist file infloops the state machine" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191979
<barry> also: fixing problems with emacs in both the archive and my personal settings
<barry> image based upgrades: logging and testing against the real server. various keyring fixes. inaugural weekly ghangout. bug filing and housekeeping.  LP: #1191141, LP: #1191885, LP: #1191982 (still unresolved).  todo: LP: #1191150
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1191141 in Ubuntu system image "Only the archive master should be required" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191141
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1191885 in Ubuntu system image "Test suite should lower log level" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191885
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1191982 in Ubuntu system image "Test suite produces ResourceWarnings" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191982
<barry> â®
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1191150 in Ubuntu system image "Save the.tar.xz and tar.xz.asc keyring files" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191150
<slangasek> that's been burning us rather more than I like - I realize proposed-mismatches shouldn't be trying to deal with c-m, but do we need more proactive c-m handling somewhere?
<stokachu> barry: just let it rewrite itself until it is fixed
<slangasek> I mean, we already get the emails
<barry> stokachu: :)
<slangasek> "ghangout" - what a lovely gutteral consonant
<cjwatson> slangasek: from my point of view as an archive admin the problem is that doing anything about it in reasonable bulk requires going through tons of MIR paperwork for packages I know nothing in particular about
 * barry wonders if that's g-as-in-gif or g-as-in-gif
<cjwatson> ghangout> that's clearly a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative
<slangasek> right :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: so I think it has to be pushed to uploaders more, somehow - I know some of them are due to syncs but certainly far from all
<doko> barry, thanks for the python sru's
<slangasek> cjwatson: is an adjustment to the MIR process needed?  should c-m be linkified to appropriate bug searches?
<barry> doko: np!
<cjwatson> it is linkified
<cjwatson> I mean, if the bug exists you get a link
<slangasek> cjwatson: where?
<slangasek> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.txt is not html :)
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.txt  grep for MIR:
<cjwatson> OK, "link"
<cjwatson> Or http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg has clickable links
<cjwatson> And indeed clickable bug searches
<cjwatson> s/bug searches/filebug links/
<slangasek> but only searches open MIRs
<ogra_> shouldnt it probably just mail the uploader in parallel to the ML =
<ogra_> ?
<cjwatson> slangasek: Right, not sure what else it should do
<slangasek> so if someone has promoted it in -proposed and the bug has been closed, the search won't find it - is that one of the problems here or not?
<cjwatson> Also, when I try to act upon this sort of thing, I get the kinds of response times in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ruby-json/+bug/1178274
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1178274 in ruby-json (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ruby-json" [Undecided,New]
<cjwatson> slangasek: Oh, it's true that happens from time to time but I don't think it's a particularly large part of the problem
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> cjwatson: maybe we should chat after so I can understand exactly where the bottleneck is
<cjwatson> How about I put this on the agenda for next month's release eng sprint?
<slangasek> ah, sounds good
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<cjwatson> I think doing anything about it will be a chunk of (worthwhile) work no matter what
<slangasek> right
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything you want to highlight this week?
<bdmurray> slangasek: nope
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Meeting format
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Meeting format
<slangasek> so I have a topic to discuss this week :)
<slangasek> I've chatted a bit with cjwatson about this already, and we wanted to get feedback from the rest of the team about the layout of this meeting itself
<slangasek> currently, the bug triaging seems to be happening efficiently outside the meetings, and we rarely have other topics brought up for discussion besides the lightning round
<slangasek> it seems like if all we were doing was weekly status reports, we could do that by email just as well
<slangasek> but I like us having the weekly real-time meeting
<slangasek> do you guys have thoughts on how we could make it more useful?
<stokachu> are the weekly status report by email public?
<slangasek> they could be published in a wiki page instead of by email
<cjwatson> We don't really have a suitable public list, but ... that
<barry> as long as we do it. :)
<stokachu> i already do a weekly status report for my group but of course some couldnt be public
<cjwatson> a real-time meeting is a pretty good way to ensure we actually do it
<cjwatson> stokachu: as public as this meeting; but of course private-platfound is available if need be
<slangasek> yeah... I'm not keen on the idea of dropping the meeting and doing status in the wiki, because I know people will get neck-deep in work and not get around to sending them in on time ;)
<barry> if we do it enough ahead of the public meeting, then we can use this time to dive a little deeper into one or two topics.
<cjwatson> however I think slangasek was talking about e-mailed status reports as one possibility, not necessarily as a done deal
<slangasek> barry: I think the current scheduled meetings (1h IRC, + 1/2h mumble) allow plenty of time to dive deep on a topic... if we have topics we want to discuss :)
<stokachu> i do like the real time meetings to get ack's on bugs needing attention
<cjwatson> I think it's helpful to have some way where those of us who aren't involved in e.g. whole-image updates can see what's happening there, and perhaps rotating through various topics at greater length would provide some similar usefulness
<stgraber> I think there's value in having it on IRC if only because it's easier to discuss specific points of somebody else's work than by replying to a bunch of e-mails or commenting on a wiki page. Also it's nice being able to quickly highlight someone from another team and have their feedback immediately.
<cjwatson> OTOH I kind of don't want to make people prepare presentations all the time
<doko> hmm, I think we had status reports by email before, but did change it to online reports
<cjwatson> Right, it was hard to get them done on time
<cjwatson> Or at all :)
<cjwatson> OTOH turning up to press the paste button isn't necessarily a perfect use of time
<doko> I like the current way better (if the reports don't get excessive, hint, hint ...)
<barry> the problem i see with the current format is that things scroll by so quickly, it's hard to keep up and further, to have a conversation about specific points (e.g. in the middle of other people's status)
<cjwatson> Yeah, I have difficulty with that too
<stokachu> why not use etherpad or something?
<barry> as evidenced by slangasek's comment earlier :)
<cjwatson> I do try to read them - but it can be a bit TMI
<stokachu> has chat and everyone can log their status
<cjwatson> oh god oh god etherpad *PTSD*
<stokachu> LOL
<cjwatson> worst UI on the planet
<stokachu> or gobby?
<slangasek> well, I know it's perhaps not considered good IRC meeting etiquette, but from my POV it's far preferable for people to talk about things as they come up in status reports, even if it slows the meeting down
<xnox> just to complete the flamewar: google wave and google docs.
<stokachu> xnox: hah
<slangasek> but yes, being able to have reports side-by-side with the IRC discussion might be better
<cjwatson> the problem with those is that they're either awfully ephemeral (gobby - in theory logs/saves, but in practice loses things all the time) or terrible UI from hell (etherpad)
<slangasek> again, the challenge is getting everything into the wiki ahead of time
<cjwatson> I actually don't regard the current status report format as a particular problem, but it does feel that we have settled into a local minimum of mostly doing *only* the lightning round
<slangasek> I know half the team is furiously finishing their reports *during the meeting*, that wouldn't work if they had to be in the wiki at the start of the meeting ;)
<slangasek> xnox: this is not the wave you're looking for
<stokachu> true i have last minute bugs coming up just before the meetings
<slangasek> xnox: oh wait, YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THAT MOVIE
<cjwatson> And it rather feels as though there should be additional uses for a weekly sync point
 * xnox =(
<slangasek> so to be clear, I'm strongly in favor of keeping a weekly real-time sync point
<ogra_> slangasek, what ?!?! how did he get the job without that
<slangasek> I would just like it to be more dynamic
<slangasek> ogra_: we interviewed him based on skills instead? :)
<stokachu> is there no team management software that we could use
<stokachu> like basecamp or something
<barry> slangasek: do you find the weekly meetings to be useful for you as a manager to know what we're up to?
<slangasek> wtf, I just read "tea management" and did a double take
<xnox> slangasek: my personalised google search results bring up only a song by Fall Out Boy, which I'm sure is not the reference you made.
<stokachu> haha
<ogra_> lol
<slangasek> barry: yes - but if it's *just* that, it could all be handled by emailed/wikied status reports, or covered in 1:1s or whatever
<slangasek> barry: I'm more interested in making sure the team is getting something out of the meetings collectively - i.e., surfacing from their own underground silos once a week to talk with their peers
<cjwatson> it's useful for me too FWIW; I don't routinely have 1:1s but it's helpful to have a general awareness of what everyone's doing
 * xnox ponders if it would make any sence to bring together kernel/phonedations/foundations to talk together.
<slangasek> stokachu: I don't think different software solves the problem that's bothering me :)
<barry> slangasek: definitely
<ScottK> Personally, I find the IRC discussion interesting and sometimes, because it's on IRC, I'll have something to contribute.
<stokachu> ah ok
<slangasek> ScottK: right, having it open to the rest of the community is also a concern of mine
<cjwatson> yeah, I think we would lose something important if we moved into some silo or other
<slangasek> so, strawman time
<slangasek> how about if we continue with the existing format, but we pick one topic a week to go into more depth on?
<stgraber> +1
<slangasek> and I'll announce the topics within the team the night before, so the people working on the topic know they should be ready (but not needing to prepare a presentation per se)
<cjwatson> I think perhaps a day or two's warning would be better
<cjwatson> just in case there's something else going on on Wednesday morning
<bdmurray> slangasek: being in the same tz as you I'd like some more time ;-)
<slangasek> and at any time, if someone has a problem they're struggling with that they would like the team's eyeballs on, they can pre-empt
<cjwatson> but that's just a refinement
<slangasek> cjwatson, bdmurray: hmm, I'm wary that giving more time will lead people to be inclined to over-prepare?
<cjwatson> I suppose it's a balance between overpreparation and panic
<cjwatson> we could see how it works ...
<cjwatson> does anyone feel this kind of thing would be bad?
<barry> nope
 * xnox is curious what we will discuss? Mir vs X ?
<slangasek> xnox: well, I /could/ give folks an update on plymouth + Mir
<ev> Scala vs Clojure
<slangasek> because that's a thing we'll be working on in the near future
<ev> give me time, I'll wear you down ;)
<slangasek> xnox: or you could talk about the status of the android cross-toolchain work, or we could talk about the system image updates and have Q&A about that, or go deeper on the container flip architecture and the problems we're running into, or click packages, or...
<xnox> ev: "Scala vs Clojure" - perfect name for the first audiobook monologue from you to be published on amazon audio books =)
<slangasek> I think we have no shortage of topics where it would be useful to have more mind-melding^W cross-pollination
<stokachu> "Why Lisp will rule the world"
<xnox> s/will/didn't/
<barry> slangasek: that would also make it more interesting for non-team members
<stokachu> haha
<cjwatson> xnox: I think it ought to be something directly related to things we're doing; while there is certainly a connection via Plymouth, I wasn't envisaging general discussion about the state of Ubuntu
<barry> s/will/does/
<barry> ev: FORTH
<xnox> cjwatson: I see.
<cjwatson> Basically what slangasek said by way of examples
<ev> xnox: I'm going to save my dulcet tones for the audiobook version of The C++ Programming Language. Mostly so I can end every paragraph with "but wait, it gets worse."
 * ev stops being a distraction
<cjwatson> (If we happened to be doing it today I probably would have sanity-checks to ask for about click-package, for instance)
<slangasek> if we feel after a while that we've exhausted our own topics (but that seems improbable), we could invite guest speakers from other teams
<ev> barry: :D
<cjwatson> ev: My roommate at university had his bookshelf organised from humour to horror
<slangasek> ev: you should just do an audio book of "PHP: A Fractal of Bad Design" :)
<cjwatson> ev: The right-hand-side went ..., Whit, The Wasp Factory, The C++ Programming Language
<ev> lol!
<ev> amazing all around
<slangasek> ok, so it sounds like we have a rough consensus to add explicit discussion topics to the meeting
<slangasek> and I've marked in my calendar to pick these topics the day before - hopefully striking the right overpreparing vs. panic balance :)
<slangasek> frankly, I think if we're picking the right topics people are going to be able to talk about them extemporaneously
<slangasek> because it's the stuff that you're already working on that's in your brain :)
<cjwatson> Yeah, that's probably true
<slangasek> sound good?
<ev> yes
<stokachu> +1
<ScottK> And if not, the panic will be fun to watch.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else? :)
<barry> slangasek: "extemporaneously" is probably an acknowledgment of reality anyway :)  +1
<slangasek> :D
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 19 16:00:14 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-19-15.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-19-15.02.html
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<ev> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-20
<NikTh> Hello everyone.
<NikTh> These dates need an update -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<NikTh> I would edit the WiKi, but I don't know how to create an event in http://www.timeanddate.com/
<k1l_> NikTh: i would just correct the url
<k1l_> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=1200+Ubuntu+Membership+Board+Meeting+-+June+2013&iso=20130622T12&ah=1  like that?
<NikTh> k1l_:  The next meeting according to schedule is 4th July (first Thursday) for 22:00 UTC and for 12:00 UTC is 17th July (third Wednesday )
<NikTh> k1l_:  But in order to fix these dates, I think you have to create new events in timedate.com .. I'm not sure though
<k1l_> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Membership+Board+Meeting+-+22%3A00+UTC&iso=20130704T22&ah=1
<k1l_> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Membership+Board+Meeting+-+12%3A00+UTC&iso=20130713T12&ah=1
<k1l_> take these as long as we dont know if there is another rule to set up the meetings-time-links
<NikTh> Great k1l_ . Can I edit the Wiki here ->  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards (do I have your permission ? ) :-)
<k1l_> im not a member of that board :/
<NikTh> Hahaha... me neither
<NikTh> Oh .. k1l_  , but these are not the correct dates..
<k1l_> let me have a quick look who is in that board
<k1l_> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Membership+Board+Meeting+-+12%3A00+UTC&iso=20130717T12&ah=1
<k1l_> was a typo (13.07. instead of 17.07.
<NikTh> and the 4th July 22:00 UTC ?
<k1l_> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Membership+Board+Meeting+-+22%3A00+UTC&iso=20130704T22&ah=1
<k1l_> its showing 4th juy 22:00 UTC for me
<NikTh> Ok, now are correct.
<NikTh> I will edit the Wiki.. I hope they will not ban me.. hahahah.. If this wiki page was only for the council to edit, then I would not have the right to edit.. correct ?
<NikTh> k1l_:  Thanks for the help to create these events in timedate.com ..
<k1l_> yes, atleast users who want to become members can add themselves to that wikipage the rights should allow it. at least you are taking some work off the council. just document the changes in the comment section of the editing filed
<jared> NikTh: thanks for that. We generally use the links to show the time and date, they don't always have to be listed as events but it's not a bad thing that they are.
<NikTh> jared:  Thanks. I have a friend he wants to apply for Ubuntu membership and he told me that he is waiting for the dates to be changed in order to add his name in the board. So I volunteered to help to change these dates. I didn't know about the links though :-)
<jared> NikTh: that's great, we sometimes forget to update them, especially when it runs a little over time we all run away to other things before completing the admin side then and there.
<NikTh> jared:  I understand.. completely . Glad I could help even in something small as this. :-)
<jared> No worries, I look forward to your friend's application
<smartboyhw> NikTh, great:)
<smartboyhw> We have new members!
<smartboyhw> :P
<NikTh> smartboyhw:  hahaha :P
<pleia2> hi everyone, just rounding up CC folks :)
<pleia2> #startmeeting Community Council
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 20 17:04:11 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting | Current topic:
<pleia2> #chair dholbach Gwaihir
<meetingology> Current chairs: Gwaihir dholbach pleia2
<dholbach> hey
<pleia2> so the plan today is to meet with translators and forums folks
<pleia2> is there anyone from the forums here?
<coffeecat> o/
<pleia2> hey coffeecat :)
<pleia2> #topic Forums check-in
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting | Current topic: Forums check-in
<coffeecat> hi pleia2 :)
<pleia2> I know there are some RT tickets that are being worked on, any other updates/concerns/celebrations you wish to share?
<coffeecat> Not really. We didn't have much time to liaise amongst ourselves, but there's nothing hot that I'm aware of.
<pleia2> well, that's good to hear :)
<coffeecat> Except - we added four new moderators after some of the experineced ones stepped down. Always a pleasure to see new blood.
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> alright, well as always feel free to give us a nudge if you need anything :)
<coffeecat> will do. THanks! :)
<pleia2> thank you for coming today!
<coffeecat> :)
<pleia2> #topic Translators check-in
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting | Current topic: Translators check-in
<pleia2> anyone here from the translations team?
<pleia2> (Gwaihir is, but he said he was wrapping up some things)
<beuno> o/
<pleia2> just gave dpm a nudge too
<dholbach> hola dpm
<dpm> hey dholbach
<pleia2> dpm: so, any updates/concerns/celebrations to share with the CC re: translations?
<pleia2> (hoping Gwaihir will join us too)
<pleia2> I just realized we only emailed the translations core team, probably should have asked the translations mailing list itself
<dpm> pleia2, I've not been able to spend much time in translations since last meeting, most of my time is on app development. I've been working with the translations community to get the Ubuntu Touch apps and Unity 8 translated, and the response and results have been awesome as ever, but we're still more or less in the same situation as last time regarding global coordination
<czajkowski> aloha
<dpm> so things as getting language packs out or opening Saucy translations have been suffering from that
<dpm> Pierre Slamich has been organizing meetings with other translators, which is pretty awesome, but I've not been able to attend any of them so far, so I cannot report on those
<czajkowski> dpm: is there a way we can help here?
<pleia2> I did see http://www.piware.de/2013/06/ubuntu-saucy-translations-are-now-open/ last week
<dpm> pleia2, yeah, I saw that as well, but we've not done any promotion or been much involved from the translations side as we used to
<pleia2> yeah, actually I realize now that that message never actually got to the translations mailing list
<dholbach> I can only vaguely remember the biggest blockers which were mentioned in the last meeting - can anyone remind me?
<pleia2> I've been working some with Pierre Slamich to get stats back in UWN, so that's nice
<dpm> nice!
<pleia2> dholbach: coordination in general, making sure milestones were announced, translations opened
<Gwaihir> dpm, regarding lang pack, do not remember if you already did it, but can you summarize the steps needed in an email?
<dpm> Gwaihir, I definitely can, I'll get it to you tomorrow. Actually, I'll send it to the list. It's already documented in detail here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-langpack/langpack-o-matic/main/view/head:/doc/operator-guide.txt , but it could do with a higher level overview
<czajkowski> dpm: are there things the commnity can't do that we need someone in canonical to do, or for the most part ok on their own to run once shown how ?
<Gwaihir> dpm, thanks, that would much need, I would really like to push myself the langpack back
<Gwaihir> s/need/help
<dpm> czajkowski, I think the main thing that we need now is to get more activity and new (or current) contributors helping in terms of coordinating regular activities, doing regular announcements, set new goals, etc
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> so more publicising
<dpm> czajkowski, 99% can be done by the community, the only thing I can think of that requires special Canonical permissions is to build language packs on the Canonical servers
<czajkowski> dpm: would it be possible to have a point of contact there so we know who to poke
<dpm> for other things that might need elevated permissions e.g. in LP, we've got the ubuntu-translations-coordinators team, which is community-based
<czajkowski> or for tha one person to annouce when it's done ?
<dpm> czajkowski, point of contact where?
<dpm> if it's for the Canonical servers access for langpacks, it's pitti, but he's moved to other tasks for a while now
<dpm> hey leoquant :)
<dholbach> did the translations coordination team ask for some more help with the organisation at some stage?
<Gwaihir> dpm, can't we interact with Canonical sysadmin in case for that? is it just a script to be run or it needs something else?
<dholbach> to me it seems like they should be able to help people who could help out new coordinators well
<dpm> Gwaihir, it requires not only ssh access to the server, but also knowledge in building the language packs. I think we rather need to find someone else in another team that can take over from pitti than IS. To find someone else has been on my list for a while, but tbh I've had no time to look into it :/
<leoquant> hi dpm
<dpm> dholbach, more people in the coordinators team would definitely help. We already got Pierre in there.
<dpm> recently
<dholbach> that might be a first good step then
<pleia2> doesn't sound like a whole lot we can do right now, but we should keep this on our radar
<dholbach> I don't have any more suggestions or questions right now.
<pleia2> same
<pleia2> thanks dpm and Gwaihir :)
<dpm> thanks pleia2, czajkowski, dholbach, Gwaihir :)
<pleia2> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
<pleia2> so, this! http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/06/20/ubuntu-donations-and-community-funding/
<Gwaihir> thanks dpm!
<pleia2> and also had this announced last week http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/06/14/certificates-for-ubuntu-members/
<czajkowski> busy with annoucements all of a sudden
<czajkowski> which is great
<pleia2> yeah, nice to see all of this stuff coming together finally :)
<ScottK> \o
<pleia2> unless anyone else has anything to add, I think we can wrap this up
<pleia2> (ScottK anything from you?)
<ScottK> I wanted to ask about the announcement today about donations.
<czajkowski> pleia2: aye tis great :)
<pleia2> sure
<czajkowski> ScottK: sure fire ahead
<ScottK> It wasn't clear from the announcement if there's going to be community oversight or not.
<ScottK> It seems like one applies to Canonical and either get approved or denied.
<pleia2> so the plan is for Canonical to be the main guardians of it and to reach out to applicable community teams for feedback, then at the end of the cycle the report will show where the money went and we'll discuss it then for the next cycle
<ScottK> Right, but with no idea how much was donated for Kubuntu, how do I have any idea what's reasonable to request?
<czajkowski> ScottK: so you want to know what's in the kitty first
<ScottK> Even if it's not made public, I think the appropriate flavor governance bodies should know.
<ScottK> Personally, I think it should be public, but that's a finer point.
<pleia2> ScottK: you might want to talk to jono directly since they didn't want to make it fully public, he may be willing to give you some details privately
<jono> ScottK, hi
<jono> so we don't plan on making the budgets available until the final report
<ScottK> Also, if someone is asking for money out of the Kubuntu pot, I think the KC should decide if it's reasonable.
<jono> there is no % assigned to Kubuntu
<dholbach> ScottK, I think it will be mostly about "is this use of money going to have a good impact?"
<czajkowski> ScottK: I supose it can't be given it donations to flavours so maybe it's just on a per basis
<jono> there is a budget for all flavors
<jono> requests will come on a first come first served basis
<jono> but we will try to pre-empt other needs such as conference sponsorship
<ScottK> Then when someone says they want their donation to go to, say, Lubuntu, does that affect how the money gets spent?
<jono> ScottK, there is no way of someone saying where specifically they want their donation to go
<jono> other than the broad bucket of "flavors"
<jono> and our goal is to ensure that that money is fairly distributed across the flavors based on their needs
<czajkowski> ScottK: if you lok at the donations page it says donate to flavours but you cannot say which one specfically so it's a flavours pot
<ScottK> I see.
<jono> there is no X% for Kubuntu, X% Lubuntu etc
<czajkowski> *look
<jono> ScottK, my recommendation is simply put in funding requests where you feel the money could be useful utilized
<dholbach> http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/questions?distro=desktop&bits=32&release=lts for example
<ScottK> So is there still an option to have a link to "If you want to donate to $FLAVOR specifically, go here:"?
<jono> ScottK, and while there is still budget, if that is a reasonable request within the guidelines it should be approved
<jono> ScottK, no
<jono> ScottK, just the donations sliders as discussed
<dholbach> any other questions?
<pleia2> thanks jono
<jono> thanks
<pleia2> ok, thanks for coming everyone :)
<ScottK> Personally, I think that donations page is a problem.
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 20 17:56:23 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-20-17.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-20-17.04.html
<pleia2> doh
<ScottK> I'll think about it.
<dholbach> thanks pleia2 and everyone else!
<czajkowski> cheers pleia2
<pleia2> ScottK: thanks
<czajkowski> ScottK: I think it's worth giving this a few months so we can see the rviews after and then give feedback
<jono> czajkowski, agreed
<jono> we will run this cycle and do a review if it too
<jono> to see how we can optimize it
<czajkowski> jono: aye can't judge things properly I think wthout at least some real data and see how things go
<jono> czajkowski, yeah
<jono> and like anything, we will always strive to refine and improve and make it as fair as possible :-)
<jono> I want the report to be awesome example of how the money was used in really valuable places
<ScottK> With no way to specify who the donation is for, how can we possibly know what's fair.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-22
 * Noskcaj is away: I'm either at school or soccer. or i just don't like you.
<Noskcaj> stupid xchat
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-23
<paco_> Hi people
<paco_> I'm searching info about ubuntu tv and v 13.04
<paco_> do you know anything about that?
<paco_> ... the ubuntu tv project seems like dead.. :/
<paco_> ... the ubuntu tv project seems like death.. :/
<smartboyhw> paco_, go to #ubuntu-tv :)
<paco_> tnx smartboyhw! ; ]
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-16
<jdstrand> hi!
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
 * sbeattie waves
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 16 16:37:39 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Kent Baxley (kentb) provided patches for openwsman for Ubuntu 14.04 LTS (LP: #1319098). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1319098 in codeblocks (Ubuntu) "package codeblocks-dev 13.12-1 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/include/codeblocks/wxContribItems/wxImagePanel/include/wx/wxImagePanel.h', which is also in package codeblocks-wxcontrib-headers 12.11-1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1319098
<jdstrand> that was not the right bug number
<jdstrand> bug #1319089
<ubottu> bug 1319089 in openwsman (Ubuntu Utopic) "Add security fixes from upstream" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1319089
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I;ll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I am working on openstack security updates today
<jdstrand> I am also patch piloting
<jdstrand> I didn't get to finishing the ofono profile set cause it is blocked on the apparmor upstart job, but that should all be resolved this week
<sbeattie> \o/
<jdstrand> I still have a few things to deal with from the sprint
<jdstrand> and then other june work items (ff is 6/26)
<jdstrand> that's it from me. marc, ty and jj are all off today
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm focusing on gcc stuff again this week.
<jdstrand> where are you on that?
<sbeattie> I'm still digging in to why the pie stuff isn't getting set properly for some gcc testcases, as well as doing testbuilds of other packages to ensure things are working.
<jdstrand> what do you expect the eta of that to be?
<sbeattie> This week
<jdstrand> this is the PIE/amd64 stuff, right?
<sbeattie> (end of, anyway)
<sbeattie> YEs, PIE by default of amd64
<sbeattie> s/of/on/
<jdstrand> cool
<sbeattie> For apparmor stuff, I have a couple of patches to review, and a patch or two of my own to push.
<sbeattie> That's pretty much it for me. sarnold?
<sarnold> I'm on community this week
<sarnold> since marc is gone today I'll make a quick pass through triage
<sarnold> I'm returning to working on the mod_wsgi work for qrt's django tests; it's a month cold at this point, but I'm afraid how much of it will be re-learning what I knew, but I built new vms last week so hopefully they're not busted yet :)
<sarnold> I'm also hoping for some apparmor patches to review :) I'd like som edistractions from mod_wsgi fiddling :)
<sarnold> oh yes, filing insurance claim for malta fun.
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<jdstrand> sarnold: if you are looking for things to review, there are several work items in security-u-catchall
<sarnold> jdstrand: ooo
<jdstrand> (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-u-catchall)
<sarnold> oh yes, nice long list :)
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<chrisccoulson> so, last week I got firefox and flash out. I still need to publish thunderbird, but there's not really a rush for that (only 3 of the advisories for firefox were applicable to thunderbird)
<chrisccoulson> but i'll do that tomorrow :)
<chrisccoulson> I've nearly finished bug 1312082, which has turned in to quite a sizeable piece of work
<ubottu> bug 1312082 in Oxide "Stop using deprecated compositing paths" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1312082
<jdstrand> thankfully, that's a one time thing
<chrisccoulson> and then after that, I shall be clearing my review queue and picking the next task off the list (https://bugs.launchpad.net/oxide/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&assign
<chrisccoulson> ee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.structural_subscriber=&field.tag=rtm14&field.tags_combinator=ANY&field.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on&field.has_blueprints.used=&field.has_blueprints=on&field.has_no_b
<chrisccoulson> lueprints.used=&field.has_no_blueprints=on)
<chrisccoulson> oops
<chrisccoulson> sorry about that, I just copied the search URL from firefox
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> is the next task off the list the media-hub stuff?
<chrisccoulson> well, alex is working on that, unless I need to help out
<jdstrand> ah, cool
<jdstrand> well, we have a meeting on that tomorrow, so I'll just be patient
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mplayer.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pdns.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/cobbler.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libfpdi-php.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/check-mk.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> sbeattie, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 16 16:55:33 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-16-16.37.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<phonaney> ok, this seems to work
<phonaney> got an extremely high ping though
<phonaney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<phonaney> nobody?
<bdmurray> I'm here
<phonaney> okay, well we only need one more +1 for zequence so it could be enough
<phonaney> how do you want to do this?
<phonaney> zequence: you here?
<phonaney> hi micahg_mobile
<phonaney> phone gang
<phonaney> doesn't look like this is happening
<phonaney> maybe the rest of you can vote via email
<micahg_mobile> Apparently I'm supposed to be chairing, but can't at the moment
<phonaney> looks like you got lucky
<micahg_mobile> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<phonaney> dont think zequence is actually here
<micahg_mobile> Ah, that's a problem
<phonaney> so... see you soon :)
<phonaney> email should be fine
<phonaney> we did say that after the previous application to be fair
<phonaney> bye!
 * micahg_mobile bows out as well
<xnox> hey
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-17
 * beisner stretches
<coreycb> o/
<beisner> o/ good morning
<gnuoy> o/
<kickinz1> o/
<lutostag> o/
<smb> o/
<beisner> here we go!
<beisner> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 17 16:01:15 2014 UTC.  The chair is beisner. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<beisner> greetings, all.
<beisner> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rharper> o/
 * beisner looks..
<beisner> I don't think there were any action items from the prev mtg.
<beisner> #topic Utopic Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Utopic Development
<gaughen> o/
<beisner> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<beisner> So, Feature Definition Freeze is this Thu 6/19.
<gaughen> jamespage, smoser do we need anything for feature definition freeze?
 * jamespage stops writing blog post - time got away with me
<beisner> smoser had to step out for a bit.
<jamespage> gaughen, we need to get all our BP's up-to-date and approved
<gaughen> jamespage, awesome. nag email sent yesterday.
 * beisner remembers gaughen's email nudge on that topic
<beisner> UOS fka vUDS was last week.
<beisner> Any discussion around UOS sessions/outcomes?
 * jamespage puts some time aside to work on that
<gaughen> beisner, blueprints are getting updated with any thing that came out of it
<beisner> yep, some good sessions last week.
<beisner> #subtopic Release Bugs
<beisner> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-u-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<beisner> we have 3 high importance bugs
<beisner> bug 1319555
<ubottu> bug 1319555 in ec2-api-tools (Ubuntu Utopic) "update out-dated ec2-api-tools for 12.04" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1319555
<coreycb> beisner, we still need to get that report updated - it's from may 19
 * beisner refreshes...
<coreycb> I'm not sure how to do that
<beisner> #action refresh bug list
<meetingology> ACTION: refresh bug list
<beisner> well hmm.
<beisner> so, we had 3 high importance bugs on 5/19.  ;)
<beisner> ...
<beisner> ok we're updating the report so we can have fresh bread.
<jamespage> beisner, I'd move on for now
<beisner> ack, moving along
<beisner> #subtopic Blueprints
<beisner> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/group/topic-u-server.html
<beisner> as mentioned a few minutes ago, BPs are being updated by the team.
<beisner> gaughen, any add'l words on BPs?
<gaughen> get them done, people
<gaughen> that is all I have to say
<beisner> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<beisner> caribou, anything to note?
<beisner> caribou may be out today.  next topic.
<beisner> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa> beisner: nothing much to report on the server smoke tests side.
<psivaa> beisner: we've had some jenkins issues for the last couple of days but are fixed now.
<beisner> psivaa, cool, appreciate it!
<beisner> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Only a note that I played around with uvtool and added some rudimentary Xen (HVM) support. rbasak how do you prefer to receive contributions (debdiff?)? :) Apart from that, has anybody questions, requests? Oh, hallyn_ , I think I forgot to get back about pygrub apparmor rule for libvirt. I should have the bug somehwere will get back there. Sorry for the delay.
<rbasak> smb: merge proposal please!
<smb> rbasak, Oh now, that means I have to use bzr...
<smb> ugh
<rbasak> smb: I am behind on them mind - I've been busy with other priorities, but I will get to it.
<rbasak> smb: if that's a pain then a patch is fine. I'll sort it :)
<smb> rbasak, I will give the merge proposal a try
<smb> You know we love to whine
<beisner> rbasak, smb, sounds like you will sort it out.  need an 'action' reminder?
<smb> beisner, Not necessarily
<rbasak> beisner: thanks. I don't think so.
<beisner> yup.  thanks, moving on.
<beisner> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<beisner> no upcoming events that I'm aware of - anyone have something to hilight?
<beisner> ...
<beisner> ..
<beisner> .
<beisner> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<beisner> new topics, discussion, funnies?
<beisner> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<beisner> ok, same place, same time, next week, right?
<arosales> thanks beisner
<beisner> Next meeting:  Tue 6/24 1600 UTC
<gnuoy> thanks beisner
<beisner> sure thing!  thanks, everyone.  have a great day!
<kickinz1> thanks
<beisner> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 17 16:26:20 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-17-16.01.moin.txt
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 17 17:00:34 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Utopic
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<arges> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<smb> o/
<sforshee> o/
<ppisati_> o/
<apw> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati_> Nothing new to report this week
<ppisati_> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1405-kernel || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1405-kernel || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> I'd note that this section of the meeting is becoming less and less
<ogasawara> useful to me in its current form.  I'd like to take a vote to skip this
<ogasawara> section until I/we can find a better solution.  All in favor (ie +1)?
<ogasawara> I'll take silence as agreement as well :)
<ppisati_> +1
<jsalisbury> +1
<rtg> +1
<ogasawara> ok, motion passed.
<ogasawara> ..
<ppisati_> (actually the same could be said for the ARM status part since support it's part of generic now FWIW)
<ppisati_> ops
<ogasawara> I'm ok dropping ARM Status to then
<ogasawara> jsalisbury: we can move on
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased our Utopic kernel to v3.15 final and uploaded
<ogasawara> (3.15.0-6.11).  As noted in previous meetings, we are planning on
<ogasawara> converging on the v3.16 kernel for Utopic.  We have started tracking
<ogasawara> v3.16-rc1 in our "unstable" ubuntu-utopic branch.  We'll let this
<ogasawara> marinate and bake for a bit before we do an official v3.16 based upload
<ogasawara> to the archive.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Jun 26 - Alpha 1 (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Fri Jun 27 - Kernel Freeze for 12.04.5 and 14.04.1 (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jul 31 - Alpha 2 (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Saucy/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Saucy/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<jsalisbury> Status for the main kernels, until today (May. 6):
<jsalisbury>   *   Lucid - Verification and Testing
<jsalisbury>   * Precise - Verification and Testing
<jsalisbury>   *   Saucy - Verification and Testing
<jsalisbury>   *  Trusty - Verification and Testing
<jsalisbury> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<jsalisbury>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<jsalisbury> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<jsalisbury>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<jsalisbury> Schedule:
<jsalisbury> cycle: 08-Jun through 28-Jun
<jsalisbury> ====================================================================
<jsalisbury>          06-Jun   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<jsalisbury> 08-Jun - 14-Jun   Kernel prep week.
<jsalisbury> 15-Jun - 21-Jun   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<jsalisbury> 22-Jun - 28-Jun   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<jsalisbury> 14.04.1 cycle: 29-Jun through 07-Aug
<jsalisbury> ====================================================================
<jsalisbury>          27-Jun   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<jsalisbury> 29-Jun - 05-Jul   Kernel prep week.
<jsalisbury> 06-Jul - 12-Jul   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<jsalisbury> 13-Jul - 19-Jul   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<jsalisbury> 20-Jul - 24-Jul   Release prep
<jsalisbury>          24-Jul   14.04.1 Release [1]
<jsalisbury>          07-Aug   12.04.5 Release [2]
<jsalisbury> [1] This will be the very last kernels for lts-backport-quantal, lts-backport-raring,
<jsalisbury>     and lts-backport-saucy.
<jsalisbury> [2] This will be the lts-backport-trusty kernel as the default in the precise point
<jsalisbury>     release iso.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 17 17:06:13 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-17-17.00.moin.txt
<Jason_Jang-KO> hi~ Work^Seony Good morning??
<PabloRubianes> hi Jason_Jang-KO
<Jason_Jang-KO> hi~ PabloRubianes !!
<costales> Hi!
<PabloRubianes> Jason_Jang-KO: I'm looking for the rest of the LoCo Counil
<PabloRubianes> council*
<PabloRubianes> !lococouncil
<ubottu> The LoCo Council is coolbhavi, costales, jose, SergioMeneses, skellat and PabloRubianes - they are there to help, just ask! :) You can send them an email at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<costales> Hi PabloRubianes :) Hi Jason_Jang-KO :)
<SergioMeneses> hello everybody!
<costales> SergioMeneses, \o/
<jose> hello
<Jason_Jang-KO> o/
<KyulingLee> hello~
<igxactly> hello :)
<Work^Seony> Hi guys
<jose> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 17 20:05:13 2014 UTC.  The chair is jose. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jose> welcome to another LC meeting
<jose> #topic LoCo Council meeting, 17 Jun 2014
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LoCo Council meeting, 17 Jun 2014
<jose> so, the agenda for today has the reverification of the Korean team
<jose> #subtopic Ubuntu-KO Re-Verification
<Jason_Jang-KO> THX for incoming. We are here.
<jose> all people from the Korean team say hi
<Jason_Jang-KO> hi~
<SergioMeneses> welcome ubuntu-ko!
<drake_kr> hi :D
<PabloRubianes> welcome Korea!
<igxactly> hi again ð
<jose> cool
<costales> Hi (again)
<jose> anything to say/ask?
<Jason_Jang-KO> welcome costales
<costales> Thanks Jason_Jang-KO
<KyulingLee> hello~ (again)
<SergioMeneses> ubuntu-ko can you tell us how is your team working?
<PabloRubianes> Jason_Jang-KO: how is the team doing?
<Jason_Jang-KO> Hm...wait please. i'm sorry
<Work^Seony> We're working good as we've planned.
<Work^Seony> Everything looks going properly, and we've uploaded recorded video from our public events.
<PabloRubianes> Work^Seony: well done
<jose> do you have a link to any of those videos?
<Jason_Jang-KO> I introduce ;  Work^Seony = contact of Korean LoCo team.
<Work^Seony> jose, sure.  our team leader, drake_kr will show them.
<PabloRubianes> Jason_Jang-KO: thanks!
<SergioMeneses> nice!
<drake_kr> Here it is. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KoreanTeam/activities/14
<jose> I don't see any videos there
<Work^Seony> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_u2ESJwXJY
<Jason_Jang-KO> least +5 links in above page.
<Work^Seony> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7qfQTq6SYk
<jose> oh, I missed those
<jose> thanks
<jose> are there any reasons why the meetings are not in the LoCo Team Portal?
<Jason_Jang-KO> U R welcome, jose
<Jason_Jang-KO> i knew that there's a meeting, sorry. jose
<costales> How is working your Facebook page? :) https://www.facebook.com/groups/ubuntu.ko
<Work^Seony> do we allow to post or edit the loco team portal page?
<jose> I just wanted to know if you guys have any feedback related to the LoCo Team Portal
<jose> you are allowed, that is why your page is there
<Work^Seony> costales, sadly, the facebook page is the most active community even though we've pushed users to use our own community website.
<SergioMeneses> looks like you have a lot of fun!
<costales> Yes, It's fine for me :) We have to go where the users are! not the users to us :P
<Work^Seony> yea, we do
<PabloRubianes> Work^Seony: the LoCo portal is a good way to record you meeting history and plan future meetings
<Work^Seony> PabloRubianes, I see.  Actually, no one knows about it.  We'll do.
<PabloRubianes> Work^Seony: if you want, we can help you with that
<PabloRubianes> you can use both Facebook and the loco portal
<costales> alehop!
<jose> any other questions?
<costales> I didn't see Install Parties
<Work^Seony> PabloRubianes, I appreciate your help.  Please let me know how to do it, or you can give me a link for manual or anything helps.
<PabloRubianes> everybody back?
<costales> Maybe am I missing a link?
<jose> Work^Seony: we'll surely guide you on that later today
<costales> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KoreanTeam/activities
<Work^Seony> jose, Thanks.  Can I ask a question not related to today topic?
<Jason_Jang-KO> THX so much, jose
<jose> Work^Seony: I would prefer not now
<Work^Seony> ok
<costales> Work^Seony, are there install parties? :)
<Work^Seony> costales, That page is what we've updated everything.
<Work^Seony> What do you mean, "install parties"?
<costales> ops, sorry
<costales> release parties
<costales> when you celebrate a new Ubuntu release
<costales> :)
<Work^Seony> oh yes we did, but there was a story.
<costales> or an Ubuntu Hour, where you take a drink with other users :D
<costales> :) what happened? :)
<Jason_Jang-KO> maybe ;  http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-ko/2788-ubuntu-1404-launching-party/
<Work^Seony> as everyone knows, our Reverification application has been pending, and therefore we were not able to request CD/DVDs.
<costales> thanks for the link :D I didn't see it :$
<Work^Seony> We had the party without any 14.04 DVDs
<costales> Place Support : Microsoft Korea :D
<Work^Seony> funny ;)
<costales> > : )
<Jason_Jang-KO> ^^
<KyulingLee> :)
<drake_kr> Hand maid mini-DVD shared by me :)
<igxactly> yes it was :)
<jose> any other questions?
<Work^Seony> s/maid/made
<PabloRubianes> no me jose
<Work^Seony> other questions related to today topic only?
<PabloRubianes> not*
<costales> No me jose :)
<SergioMeneses> all good here!
<Work^Seony> thanks everyone.
<jose> #vote Ubuntu-KO Re-Verification
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu-KO Re-Verification
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<jose> #voters PabloRubianes costales SergioMeneses jose
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes SergioMeneses costales jose
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<costales> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from costales
<SergioMeneses> +1 congrats!
<meetingology> +1 congrats! received from SergioMeneses
<jose> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jose
<jose> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu-KO Re-Verification
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<jose> congratulations.
<PabloRubianes> congrats Korean Team
<costales> Congratulations and thank you team! Well done! Please, keep your hard work in the future :D
<Jason_Jang-KO> THX, every one.
<costales> Jason_Jang-KO, |o/
<Jason_Jang-KO> ok, we will
<drake_kr> thank you very much gentlemen
<KyulingLee> thank you very much~
<jose> please, one of the administrators will need to confirm the addition to the team
<igxactly> Thanks very much again :)
<jose> since there are no other agenda items, this is all for today, thanks
<jose> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 17 20:30:33 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-17-20.05.moin.txt
<jose> #voters everyone
<jose> Work^Seony: you had a question?
<costales> Thanks you jose !
<Work^Seony> jose, yes, one question.
<jose> go ahead
<Work^Seony> Korean team has requested to change our DNS for a couple years via RT, but it has never happened.
<Work^Seony> even no one took the ticket.
<Work^Seony> Am I supposed to ask this here?
<Work^Seony> Or should I request on RT, again?
<jose> Work^Seony: let me know the RT ticket number and I will make sure to get it processed
<Work^Seony> sure, give me one sec.
<costales> I have to go. I'm so sorry :$
<costales> Good night everybody!
<Jason_Jang-KO> Good D, costales
<costales> Jason_Jang-KO, ;) :D
<igxactly> Have a nice day :-) costales
<SergioMeneses> congrats ubuntu-ko
<SergioMeneses> :D
<Work^Seony> 18364, 18764, 16798
<jose> drake_kr: can I please have the invitation accepted?
<jose> Work^Seony: thanks, will take a look
<Jason_Jang-KO> thanks forks, and members of Council.
<Work^Seony> I have one more ticket
<Work^Seony> 22564
<Work^Seony> this ticket was created in last year
<Work^Seony> jose, I appreciate your help.
<jose> not a problem
<jose> taking a look now
<jose> Work^Seony: all tickets have been replied and resolved except the last one where you never replied
<jose> I would expect someone to reply before continuing to resolve an issue
* morgan.freenode.net changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LoCo Council meeting, 17 Jun 2014
<Work^Seony> I see.  So, if I create a ticket again, then it will really solve our DNS request.
<Work^Seony> hopefully
<jose> Work^Seony: no
<jose> Work^Seony: reply to the actual one. stop creating multiple tickets like you have done in the past because it only reflects that you don't read your emails
<drake_kr> i did not have any invitation
<jose> drake_kr: the team has been invited to ~locoteams-verified
<Work^Seony> gotcha
<igxactly> how, where and when can we confirm the invitation?, jose
<Jason_Jang-KO> jose: I'm a former contact 2009~2012. And We, korean No one received any mail of ~locoteams-verified.
<jose> igxactly: only team admins are allowed to
<jose> request the team to be added to ~locoteams-verified on launchpad if you're an admin
<Jason_Jang-KO> Ah! ok. i C
<igxactly> thx jose, i am understanding your saying as our team admin have to check out the launchpad
<jose> correct.
<Jason_Jang-KO> please, jose : U mean at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-lococouncil . right?
<jose> no
<Work^Seony> http://launchpad.net/~locoteams-verified
<jose> yes
<jose> that last one
<Jason_Jang-KO> ok, thanks
<Jason_Jang-KO> drake_kr: got it ?
<igxactly> we have to check out ~locoteams-verified on launchpad, drake_kr
<drake_kr> you got it
<jose> drake_kr: I meant the team, not you
<drake_kr> oh sorry
* jose changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<drake_kr> i just got message "Ubuntu Korean Team has been added to this team because of an existing invite."
<jose> add the team to the team
<jose> hmm
<jose> that looks good to me
<jose> looks like you guys are in there now
<jose> thank you
<Jason_Jang-KO> Thanks again, jose. then we finished?
<jose> yep
<Work^Seony> Thanks.  We look all done.
<Work^Seony> Thank you for your help.
<Jason_Jang-KO> good night !! C U soon.
<igxactly> thanks again jose! see you~
<jose> enjoy your day
<KyulingLee> thank you today~ see you again~
<drake_kr> thank you very much
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-18
<jared> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, and chilicuil. Meeting time.
<jared> Do we have a meeting now?
<lazyPower> we do!
<jared> lazyPower: just trying to rustle up enough people to hold the meeting
<lazyPower> i shall curb my enthusiasm
<jared> lazyPower: enthusiasm is great, I just hope  it's not in vain.
<jared> Hmm not looking good, only one other board member around at the moment.
<lazyPower> booo
<jared> I believe the first 2 applicants are actually from the last meeting so is valentino around?
<jared> lazyPower: worst case, in these instances, we move to the mailing list so you're not waiting another month.
<lazyPower> oh! well that changes perspective quite a bit
<jared> It's not fair to penalise people turning up to meetings because the board isn't there.
<jared> I've looked over yours and it seems pretty strong so I don't even have any clarifying questions.
<lazyPower> Thanks for the peer review! I tried to do my due dilligence to be prepared
<jared> When you have multiple testimonials from existing members it makes it very easy to show the requirements for community engagement.
<jared> We'll give it until 15 past just in case we can do it now but we're still too light on
<lazyPower> jared: thanks for running the motions and feedback. I'll keep my eyes peeled on my inbox for any required discussions on the list. Just so i can make sure i'm on the proper thread - which mailing list is this going to?
<lazyPower> s/thread/list/
<jared> lazyPower: sorry it's the membership board one that is private
<jared> However we CC you on the outcome, is your mailing list on the wiki page the best one??
<lazyPower> jared: certainly.
<jared> lazyPower: might be in luck, we just hit 4 as I was typing the email to the mailing list
<lazyPower> great success \o/
<jared> !startmeeting Ubuntu Membership Board 1200 UTC Meeting
<ubottu> jared: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<jared> Helps if I use the right symbold
<jared> #startmeeting Ubuntu Membership Board 1200 UTC Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 18 12:23:15 2014 UTC.  The chair is jared. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Membership Board 1200 UTC Meeting | Current topic:
<jared> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for June 18, 2014.
<jared> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<jared> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<jared> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<jared> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<jared> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<jared> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<jared> #voters jared micahg cyphermox Destine
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine cyphermox jared micahg
<jared> Now, without any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<jared> #topic Charles Butler's application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Membership Board 1200 UTC Meeting | Current topic: Charles Butler's application
<jared> lazyPower: can you please introduce yourself to the board while they read over your application
<jared> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LazyPower
<lazyPower> Hello, I'm Charles Butler. I've been a long time Ubuntu user, and fairly active in the community at large mainly in IRC and AskUbuntu.
<lazyPower> I've been talking with an Ubuntu Member - Jose whom I'm sure all of you know, and he was the prime supporter in the filing of my application. I love the work we are doing and the community. My strongest area of contributions has been the emerging Cloud Orchestration division of Juju
<lazyPower> I present myself to the board as I am, and hope you vote for me.
<jared> If any of the other board members have any questions please jump in
<jared> If anyone is here to cheer in person for lazyPower's application now is the time
<micahg> lazyPower: you mention wanting to introduce new life into the PA loco, any plans for that?
<jose> ello
<lazyPower> micahg: I've been talking to the existing members and meetings have kind of dwindled. I'm proposing a motion to the list for virtual hangouts - a la UDS/UOS style to make it more accessible to people outside of the Philly region (as i'm in pittsburgh)
<lazyPower> Also to provide some focused sessions over some of the newer cloud / touch/ friday hacklabs type projects to expose the emerging ubuntu tech to fellow members of the LOCO
<jared> lazyPower: there have been a few posts to the loco-contacts mailing list about that recently that might help you with that goal of virtual hangouts
<lazyPower> jared: Thanks for the tip. I'll take a look after the meeting.
<jared> lazyPower: no point reinventing the wheel, learning from others makes life easier.
<micahg> lazyPower: that sounds interesting (hangouts for LoCo)
<jared> jose: if you have anything to add other than your testimonial feel free to jump in now
<lazyPower> micahg: I'm really interested in making it very accessible to any/all who are interested without fragmenting the LOCO itself. Its a great group of people.
<micahg> lazyPower: I'd be interested in hearing how that goes, maybe we could try something similar in Chicago
 * jedijf cheers for lazyPower and combining PA's east and west and then squeezing the middle
<jedijf> nad welcomes any and all help :)
<lazyPower> micahg: if this gets traction, we could definately collaborate on some bigger and shinier projects. Because "We have the technology!"
<jared> So without further ado we'll conduct the vote
<jared> #vote lazyPower for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: lazyPower for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<jared> +1 great application, good detail and impressive testimonials
<meetingology> +1 great application, good detail and impressive testimonials received from jared
<Destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Destine
<Destine> Congrats!
<jared> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: lazyPower for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<lazyPower> Thank you! I'm honoured.
<cyphermox> congrats lazyPower
<jedijf> congrats lazyPower
<jose> looks like my messages weren't sent but I wanted to just highlight the work that lazyPower has been doing
<jose> congratulations, lazyPower
<jared> jose: no problems, the testimonials on the application were great
<jedijf> lazyPower: also, can't wait to 'hang'
<lazyPower> jedijf: Likewise :)
<cyphermox> lazyPower: you should be able to add your blog to planet.ubuntu.com, I'm sure people could benefit from more entries about juju things
<lazyPower> With regard to the benefits of Ubuntu membership - such as adding my blog and the @ubuntu alias - are there instructions that are sent out or do i need ot dive deeper into the wiki?
<cyphermox> the wiki has everything as I recall
<jose> @ubuntu is automatic and planet is on the wiki, yes
<meetingology> jose: Error: "ubuntu" is not a valid command.
<lazyPower> brilliant. Thanks again everyone. I'm humbled and honoured to be accepted.
<jared> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 18 12:41:58 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-18-12.23.moin.txt
<jared> Happy to keep the conversation rolling but just didn't want to fill up the meeting logs ;)
<lazyPower> ah, sorry
<lazyPower> I'm a bit of a wind bag, i'll talk all day if you let me
<jared> No worries at all
<jared> Some of the board had to run off though so I wanted to end it so they could jet if they needed
<lazyPower> jared: thanks again for seeing the meeting through. This just made my day
<lazyPower> I'm going to be running around saying "Who's got two thumbs and just became a ubuntu member? this guy!"
<jared> lazyPower: glad to hear it, sorry it was delayed
<jared> So just added you to LP and sent out the email so it's official
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-19
<cjwatson> hi folks
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<jodh> o/
 * mvo waves
<bhuey> hey
<infinity> \o/
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> one sec, was trying and failing to prepare a demo in time for the meeting :)
 * barry wavers
<cjwatson> let's see, slangasek, sil2100, and doko are out, did I miss anyone?
<infinity> I'm not here either.
<cjwatson> Sure
<cjwatson> Your invisible paint is wearing off
 * infinity furiously applies another coat.
<cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry stgraber jodh bdmurray cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey robru)
 * bhuey aims his Ghost Busters ray at infinity 
<cjwatson> caribou jodh mvo xnox robru bhuey barry cjwatson infinity bdmurray stgraber
<cjwatson> #topic Lightning round
<cjwatson> oh the bot is dead, whatevers
<caribou> oh, I get to go first !
<bhuey> ruvly
<caribou> * Qemu/KVM crash analysis : identified potential kernel mismatch
<caribou> * Finished implementation of networked kernel crash dump. PPA available
<caribou> * Backport of latest CVE to openssl 0.9.8 for precise
<caribou> * Prepare SRU for MVO's backport of apt https fixes
<caribou> (done)
<jodh> * foundations-1305-upstart-work-items:
<jodh>   - cgroup+async support: debugging state transitions and a race.
<jodh> â
 * jodh is the anti-ev :)
<mvo> hihi
<mvo> HWE-End-of-Life:
<mvo> - status meeting and meeting with jibel
<mvo> - Debug/fix update-motd display issue
<mvo> - Fix i18n issue, use localized dates, fix bug in update-support-status with fr\
<mvo> ench locale, new version for the PPA
<mvo> - Optimize the speed (from 2s to 0.2s :)
<mvo> - Review/sponsor #1328266 uploads
<mvo> - Testing
<mvo> apt:
<mvo> - CVE-2014-0478
<mvo> - add hashtable stats to apt-cache stats/increase size
<ubottu> APT before 1.0.4 does not properly validate source packages, which allows man-in-the-middle attackers to download and install Trojan horse packages by removing the Release signature. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2014-0478)
<mvo> - Fix autopkgtest failure in utopic
<mvo> - backport apt-ftparchive srccachedb feature to trusty-proposed and add fixes for #1274466, #1324399
<mvo> - work on debian/experimental ABI break branch for utopic
<mvo> aptdaemon:
<mvo> - Debug/fix autopkgtest failure
<mvo> click:
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/chroot-tests (improve coverage for chroot.py)
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/lp1324853 (get manifest from file)
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/more-tests3 (integration tests for buildsource, pkgdir,
<mvo>   framework)
<mvo> - Work with seb on click for the desktop
<mvo> python-apt:
<mvo> - implement some suggestions from didrocks (thanks!)
<mvo> - investigate landscape issue due to libapt changes
<mvo> misc:
<mvo> - patch pilot
<mvo> - merge/upload lp:~mvo/update-notifier/use-apt-helper
<mvo> (done)
 * mvo is not a anti-ev
<barry> mvo: maybe the ant-y-ev or auntie-ev?
<infinity> mvo: It filled more than a screenful, you're the new ev.  Deal with it.
<mvo> infinity: next thing is that you ask me how many shoes I have
<stgraber> infinity: sorta, mvo needs to learn to make longer sentences, then he'll officially be the ev replacement :)
<robru> it all fit on my screen, what are y'all doing this meeting on your phones or something?
<bhuey> what's ev ?
<stgraber> bhuey: former colleague of ours
<cjwatson> Evan Dandrea, used to work for foundations, notorious for extremely verbose reports
<infinity> bhuey: Evan Dandrea, used to write novels for status updates.
<stgraber> bhuey: s/colleague/teammate/
<barry> loquacious
<cjwatson> (now CI manager)
<infinity> xnox: *poke*
<cjwatson> Actually isn't xnox out too?
<stgraber> he's not on mumble, which is unusual, so I guess he's out yeah
<infinity> Oh, maybe.  People should learn to not join #-meeting unless they have a meeting.  Mashocists.
<bhuey> yeah I met him
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt:[15:24] <xnox>   - I'll be away most of next week. Flying out to Portland on Monday,
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt:[15:24] <xnox>     returning on Thursday. Working on Friday. I should have
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt:[15:24] <xnox>     intermittent internet connectivity throughout.
<cjwatson> so robru's turn
<robru> * misc landings, troubleshooting misc build failures
<robru> * reviewed packaging for various & sundry landings
<robru> * progress continues on the CI NonFunctional Testing Web Frontend
<robru>   - pushed a live demo at http://people.canonical.com/~rbpark/nf/
<robru>   - fancy graphs and things
<infinity> Wow, how did that 'h' migrate to the left in that word?
<cjwatson> what's NonFunctional jargon for?  I'm guessing it doesn't mean broken :)
<cjwatson> perf testing?
<bhuey> perf as in kernel perf ?
<robru> cjwatson, yeah, that, but also any kind of test that isn't defined within the project itself
<infinity> cjwatson: NonFunctional = Not written in Haskell?
<cjwatson> sorry perf as in short for performance rather than the perf tool
<stgraber> :)
<cjwatson> infinity: hey, I can sort of do functional programming in python with a few contortions :)
<robru> cjwatson, so, like, this would include systemsettle or glmark or whatever. the kind of testing where there is no real hard pass/fail, but rather where you want to record some kind of number, and only fail if the number represents a serious regression, which can only be determined by comparing it to past results
<cjwatson> ah, got it, so this would include bootcharts, memory use, etc.
<robru> cjwatson, yes
<mvo> nice
<infinity> cjwatson: There's something very wrong with you.
<cjwatson> maybe I could steal you at some point to do that kind of graphing for various +1 maintenance metrics (build failures over time, say)
<cjwatson> could do with some of that to make it easier to explain
<cjwatson> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlusOneMaintenanceTeam for those missing the jargon here)
<bhuey> functional programming, bah
<cjwatson> infinity: I said can, not do
<infinity> cjwatson: ITYM https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuanMaintenance
<robru> cjwatson, sure. this thing we're making is going to be open to anybody to submit metrics into
 * barry wants funk-tional programming
<infinity> cjwatson: vorlon's contribution to the wiki...
<cjwatson> Steve is a sick puppy
<bhuey> barry: awesome
<robru> cjwatson, but I'm just drawing pretty graphs, probably best to talk to thomi or fginther about getting your results actually in the system
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> right, bhuey's up I think
<bhuey> very sad status report
<bhuey> Last week
<bhuey> -experimented with the build environment more to see how all of the openjdk build trees are setup
<bhuey> This week
<bhuey> -was able to track down with the help of the team how to revert an openjdk change and it's history. I was able to create two patches to fix the problem. Both compile now
<bhuey> -kept compiling changes and kept running into my misunderstandings of how the packaging system builds and the order in which it builds them. I finally resolved them. It was basically a confusion of how the patches from debian/patches/ apply to all of the nest openjdk/ directories.
<bhuey> -realized that I can use something like make -j12 in an openjdk/ directory so that I don't have to wait for a full build from dpkg-buildpackage
<bhuey> -follow naming conventions for packaging and then upload it again
<bhuey> Next week
<bhuey> -move to a new icedtea 2.5 package. This should go fast as what I've tripped up on I was finally able to bypass.
<bhuey> -start on TCK configuration. Bother IS for access to that QA machine
<bhuey> ...
<bhuey> done
<infinity> Which QA machine?
<barry> working mostly on new "coverage service" dependency porting/packaging.
<bhuey> move might happen today actually
<barry> debuntu: virtualenv bug triaging (debian bug 751233), virtualenv 1.11.6-2, python-chameleon 2.16-1, zope.deprecation 4.1.1 (needs another upload), nose-exclude 0.2.0-3 (debian bug #751990 - need to followup with openstack team), tox 1.7.1-1 (debian bugs #746236 #751193 #751803), zope.testrunner 4.4.3-1 (debian bug #751647), cherrypy3 3.3.0-1 (debian bugs #494342, #751642, #722671), python-venusian 1.0a8-2
<ubottu> Debian bug 751233 in python-virtualenv "missing licenses in debian/copyright" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/751233
<ubottu> Debian bug 751990 in python-nose-exclude "python-nose-exclude: Add Python 3 support" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/751990
<ubottu> Debian bug 746236 in tox "Missing Python3 support" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/746236
<ubottu> Debian bug 751647 in python3-zope.testrunner "python3-zope.testrunner: Depends on python3.3, which is due to be removed soon" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/751647
<barry> phone: system-image test debugging.  asyncio experiment.  triaged LP: #1274131
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1274131 in Ubuntu system image "UpdatePaused signal always returns percentage=0" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1274131
<barry> other: UOS, ci train monkeysheriff, landing team standup
<barry> done
<bhuey> infinity: albali
<cjwatson> Two weeks of report as I was out for last week's meeting.
<cjwatson> UOS.  Main thing for me was the RTM archive plan presentation.
<cjwatson> Moved all germinate-related code out of Launchpad proper and into ubuntu-archive-publishing.  Used the opportunity to land parallelisation code, speeding the primary publisher up by a couple of minutes.
<cjwatson> Added support for apt-ftparchive source caching to Launchpad.  We'll need to land and backport an apt SRU to finish this.
<cjwatson> Optimised the index generation stage of the PPA publisher, roughly doubling its overall speed.
<cjwatson> Reviewed William's first couple of branches for the new builder reset protocol needed for scalingstack.
<cjwatson> Lots more work on livefs-in-LP, which is now finally in the process of landing.
<cjwatson>  - Live demo!  https://dogfood.paddev.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/trusty/ubuntu-desktop/+build/2
<cjwatson> Tons of transitional uploads trying to get -proposed a bit less full.
<cjwatson> Figured out the Jenkins madness necessary to get click onto the QA dashboard.
<cjwatson> ..
<stgraber> bhuey: don't you have a CI/QA lab VPN?
<cjwatson> (that may be the shortest duration between getting a demo going and presenting its URL)
<stgraber> bhuey: (I just tried and I can get into albali just fine using mine + usual login/password)
<mvo> cjwatson: I uploaded the trusty-proposed sru today so hopefuly you are unblocked soon
<bhuey> stgraber: not that I know of
<infinity> - Lots of kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity> - eglibc->glibc migration
<infinity> - SRU and partner reviews
<infinity> - Dealing with random PPC stuff
<infinity> - Shepherd the LibreOffice SRU
<infinity> - Attempting to maintain sanity
<infinity> â­
<cjwatson> mvo: yep, I saw it in the queue indeed, that was mostly a note to myself
<stgraber> bhuey: ok, so sounds like that's what you should be asking IS for (they'll ask for Steve's confirmation)
<bhuey> stgraber: ok I get on that later today
<stgraber> infinity: how's that last point going? :)
<infinity> stgraber: It's a losing battle.
<bhuey> SRU ?
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<infinity> bhuey: Stable Release... What he said.
<bhuey> ok
<bdmurray> modified daisy to use a tempfile for the coredump to help with swift errors and log the size of the coredump
<bdmurray> updated daisy to cleanup leftover core files in /tmp/ (LP: #1330247)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1330247 in Daisy "daisy FE app not cleaning tmp cores" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1330247
<bdmurray> worked with thedac regarding swift client exceptions in daisy
<bdmurray> submitted daisy bug 1329427 regarding submitting the same crash
<ubottu> bug 1329427 in Daisy "you can submit the exact same crash multiple times" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1329427
<bdmurray> reported errors bug 1329820 regarding retracer stats for armhf
<bdmurray> modified daisy retracers to exit earlier if no oops is found (save time!)
<ubottu> bug 1329820 in Errors "no armhf data in retracers-average-processing-time" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1329820
<cjwatson> i.e. what we need to do in order to manage due diligence for changing stable releases
<bdmurray> modified daisy retracers to mark oops that are missing from before the cut over as failed that way it won't continuously retry them
<bdmurray> fixed daisy-retracer charm's cronjobs to set MAILTO
<bdmurray> investigation into and fixing of amqplib IOError from the daisy frontends
<bdmurray> investigation into building cassandra dpkg version type
<bdmurray> research into corefiles in swift that don't need to be there (LP: #1331212)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1331212 in Daisy "more core files in swift than in the retracing queue" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1331212
<bdmurray> ensured I have access to DSE-temp cassandra port 9160 for pycassa / lxc-errors
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding access to neem for OOPS from errors / daisy
<bdmurray> updated errors OOPS page to have a link to the corresponding problem and system pages
<bdmurray> irc discussion with seb128 regarding unity8 crashes in the error tracker
<bdmurray> review of stopped phased updates and override of some regressions (they exist in newcassandra)
<bdmurray> sent email to ubuntu-devel regarding the error tracker changing databases
<bdmurray> investigation into corrupt crashes on armhf (its stripping of the symbols causing an issue on armhf) LP: #1325503
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1325503 in gdb (Ubuntu) "gdb reports 'corrupt stack' on armhf without symbols" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1325503
<bdmurray> fixed rls-u reports on cranberry
<bdmurray> â done
<stgraber> Short week, was off on Monday.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> LXC:
<stgraber>  - Released LXC 1.0.4, uploaded to utopic and trusty-propsoed.
<stgraber>  - Processed all outstanding merge proposals and patches on the mailing-list.
<stgraber>  - Looked into yet another container escape exploit (this time working around
<stgraber>    even our apparmor profile) and sent an e-mail to our lists to clarify the
<stgraber>    situation and strongly recommend using unprivileged containers.
<stgraber>  - Working on a script to setup Unity8 under LXC, go the creation and
<stgraber>    configuration part done, just need to add the integration bits with lightdm
<stgraber>    before I can ship that to the Unity folks.
<stgraber>  - Some planning discussions with LXC upstream and our partners.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Conferences:
<stgraber>  - My talk at LinuxCon North America has finally been accepted
<stgraber>    (simulating the Internet using unprivileged LXC containers).
<stgraber>    Been figuring out some of the details now (registration as speaker,
<stgraber>    scheduling, ...)
<stgraber>  - Submitted a separate talk to the Linux Security Summit
<stgraber>    (co-hosted with LinuxCon North America) on
<stgraber>    "Application confinement with user namespaces".
<stgraber>  - Working on draft schedule for the Container hackfest, also co-hosted with
<stgraber>    LinuxCon North America.
<stgraber>  - Starting to prepare some bits for the Linux Plumbers container mini-summit
<stgraber>    in October (co-hosted with LinuxCon Europe in Dusseldorf).
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Other:
<stgraber>  - SRU queue reviews.
<stgraber>  - Landing team work.
<stgraber>  - Hopefully finally fixed our longstanding systemd-logind bug. (bug 1309025)
<ubottu> bug 1309025 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "systemd-logind assert failure: cgmanager-client.c:6322: Assertion failed in cgmanager_list_children_sync: proxy != NULL" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1309025
<stgraber>  - Fixed a couple of issues with the system-image server locking mechanism
<stgraber>    (leading to copy failures).
<stgraber>  - Meeting on Ubuntu Touch image versioning.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<cjwatson> stgraber: unpriv LXC containers seem kinda heavyweight for drawing cat pictures
<cjwatson> (seriously, let us know if that's going to be videod)
<cjwatson> videoed?
<infinity> cjwatson: But it's thousands of nodes, each either serving or viewing a cat picture.
<infinity> cjwatson: Oh, have you not seen his internet yet?  It's fun.
<cjwatson> I think I missed it
<infinity> It's even more fun when it exposes kernel bugs.
<bhuey> meory related kernel bugs ?
<bhuey> memory
<infinity> If only it were that simple.
<stgraber> cjwatson: I did the demo at the cloud sprint, and indeed as infinity mentioned, as a result of this, I found at least 4 new network related kernel bugs
<infinity> No, routing tables losing their calm.
<infinity> And other such fun.
<stgraber> bhuey: nah, memory is fine, neighborhood tables overflowing isn't :)
<cjwatson> #topic AOB
<bhuey> yeah Linux kernel reall wasn't designed with LXC in mind
<stgraber> then you get fun things like random sendmsg returning EINVAL for no good reason and userspace processes not really liking it :)
<cjwatson> So I think the only thing Steve wanted me to pass on while he's away was another reminder that if you were driving any sessions at UOS, please make sure that the output is captured in work items
<bhuey> stgraber: oh god
<cjwatson> so that http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/canonical-foundations.html looks a bit less sad
<cjwatson> anything else?  going ...
<cjwatson> going ...
<infinity> *crickets*
<cjwatson> gone.  thanks all
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<stgraber> thanks!
<caribou> thanks
<jodh> thanks!
 * bhuey cries that it's over
<slangasek> it's ok there'll be another one before you know it
 * cjwatson awards bhuey one and a half sarcasm points
 * bhuey removes tail call optimizations from all of cjwatson compilers
<cjwatson> now that's just mean
<bhuey> hahaha
<bhuey> talk about stack smash
<bhuey> it's now 'stack smack' talk
 * bhuey googles cat picture for cuteness
<bhuey> ok later
<bhuey> thanks
<YokoZar> Hello
<mhall119> o/
<czajkowski> aloha
<dholbach> *\o/*
<cprofitt> hello
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<czajkowski> bah
<mhall119> um...where's the meeting bot?
<czajkowski> hiding
<czajkowski> in the mean time
<mhall119> well that's not useful
<czajkowski> AGENDA: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<czajkowski> anyone here from the DEsktop team ?
<seb128> hey
<seb128> sorry I got sidetracked
<seb128> czajkowski, thanks for the reminder ;-)
<czajkowski> np
<czajkowski> seb128: anyone else where today from the desktop team with you?
<mhall119> welcome seb128
<seb128> no, it's only me (I think)
<czajkowski> ok
<dholbach> hey seb128!
<seb128> hey dholbach mhall119 ;-)
<czajkowski> so this meeting is a chance to catch up with the CC, tell us how things are going anything we need to know and if the CC can help in any way
<cprofitt> hello seb128
<seb128> hey cprofitt
<czajkowski> we do this for various boards and teams and this year decided to talk with the desktop
<czajkowski> very informal so
<dholbach> how are you doing? how's life? how are things in desktop land? :)
<czajkowski> howdy :)
<mhall119> dholbach: so many questions
<seb128> haha
<seb128> I don't have a specific agenda, that's likely to be boring :p
<seb128> desktop is doing well, quite busy as usual
<mhall119> seb128: does the desktop team still have the kind of community involvement it's had it the past?
<seb128> our channel is quite active, work get done, we are happy with the quality
<seb128> we try to keep on top of reviews, sponsoring, etc
<seb128> mhall119, some, less than in the past
<mhall119> seb128: why do you think there's been a decline?
<seb128> several reasons
<seb128> - we hired a part of our most active contributors base
<mhall119> we seem to do that a lot :)
<seb128> - we are enough "full timer" to keep on top of things
<seb128> - we focus more on a "product" with unity, the convergence, etc
<seb128> I would say that our "contributors" base is still somewhat around, but more focussed on e.g Ubuntu GNOME
<mhall119> is out contributor on-ramp for those products working to allow those who want to contribute to do so easily?
<YokoZar> Would you count "keeping up with bug triage" among those things?  I've always had the feeling that the desktop components in particular are just inundated with a big mess of launchpad bugs (though Gnome itself is no different)
<dholbach> is there a good exchange between the Desktop team and the Ubuntu GNOME team?
<YokoZar> More so than basically every other component I mean
<seb128> hum
<seb128> mhall119, well, it's the same as it was
<seb128> we could probably do better with documentation, tagging easy bugs, make "where to start" lists
<seb128> but we never had been optimal doing that
<seb128> bug triage... we keep on top of triaging/dealing with important issues mostly
<seb128> there is lot of poor quality reports and wishlists that don't get lot of action though
<seb128> but it's nothing new or specific to us
<seb128> exchange between Desktop and Ubuntu GNOME teams are mostly good yes
<seb128> Tim is on #ubuntu-desktop and active
<seb128> there are some frictions on technical details sometimes
<seb128> but that has to expected since we have somewhat conflicting goals
<czajkowski> seb128: what kind ?
<seb128> we want quality and stability
<czajkowski> seb128: are they easy to resolve or ?
<seb128> they would like to be uptodate
<seb128> like we used to be
<seb128> but we don't have the resources to manage uptodate and to stabilize that moving code
<dholbach> seb128, do you feel that's going better now? things like the settings-daemon fork (for example), should make that better now, right?
<seb128> dholbach, yes
<seb128> it's going in the right direction
<seb128> we still have friction points, but we resolved some and are working on resolving the remaining ones
<YokoZar> There was some tension in the past about gnome packages that we had basically forked but hadn't renamed, leading to Gnome in Ubuntu itself having some unity-specific changes that weren't necessarily desired.  Have we more or less handled that tension?
<mhall119> are we doing well with the messaging around those kinds of forks?
<dholbach> so you have a list and are slowly working through them?
<YokoZar> dholbach basically repeated my question
<YokoZar> or said it first rather :P
<seb128> yes, as you said we "forked" gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-control-center for Unity
<seb128> named them unity-settings-daemon/unity-control-center
<seb128> then unpatched the upstream variants
<seb128> we have less patches on other components
<mhall119> seb128: are Ubuntu GNOME and upstream GNOME happy with how we're doing that and why?
<seb128> and where we have, we do try to change the behaviour only under Unity by checking the env
<seb128> yes they are
<seb128> it's a good move for everyone
<mhall119> good to hear :)
<seb128> so we know what to work on
<seb128> but as usual, more to do that people doing it
<seb128> so things take time
<seb128> like it took us over a cycle to get done with g-s-d/g-c-c
<seb128> but it's nobody's fault
<seb128> we could just use more people helping ;-)
<dholbach> seb128, do you feel that talking a bit more about what needs to get done might help?
<seb128> I don't know
<mhall119> is there interest from the community in working on that?  it seems like a necessary evil that nobody really is excited to work on
<seb128> it's the sort of things you don't know until you try and see results
<seb128> mhall119, no, not really, it's mostly "boring" work
<seb128> nothing new, fancy or user visible
<seb128> just implementation details to sort
<mhall119> seb128: is it something that can be broken down into small contributions?
<seb128> some bits can
<seb128> some others are non-trivial changesets
<mhall119> having a list of those bits might make it less daunting for somebody to help out
<seb128> right
<dholbach> maybe a UOS like session with a blueprint might help(?)
<mhall119> or a hackday like core apps do
<mhall119> either one will take several hours away from somebody who might otherwise be doing the work though
<seb128> right, that's not a new issue/tradeoff
<YokoZar> To be fair we do have plenty of boring tasks the community helps with anyway :P
<seb128> thanks for pointing it out
<mhall119> YokoZar: yes, but it's easier to motivate people when the task is interesting :)
<seb128> I don't think there is lot of new there or to discuss
<mhall119> seb128: is there anything the CC can do for the desktop team?
<czajkowski> seb128: any other issues you want to bring up ?
<mhall119> any issues we can help resolve or organizational things we can do?
<seb128> can anyone talk to the DMB about reviewing the application from our libreoffice maintainer who is ongoing for 1.5 years
<seb128> and waiting for over a cycle with them looking at it
<seb128> they said they would review it again but it seems like they are too busy to do it
<mhall119> wow, that's not good, do you have a link to the application?
<seb128> meanwhile Bjoern is waiting
<dholbach> we have a meeting with the DMB coming up next :)
<seb128> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BjoernMichaelsen/YourDeveloperApplication
<mhall119> dholbach: what luck!
<czajkowski> seb128: has there been any reason for the delay?
<seb128> czajkowski, bdrung was working with him, but he got too busy for that
<czajkowski> but still 1.5 years seem a bit crazy
<seb128> and he took him some months before saying that it was stalled, time during which nothing happened
<czajkowski> thank you for raising this and yes we can look into this
<seb128> then he sent and email saying it would be better if somebody else would take that
<seb128> but that got stalled since
<dholbach> if bdrung is not around for the meeting now, I'm happy to take an action to discuss this
<seb128> Laney trying to put the topic back
<seb128> without luck
<seb128> Laney doesn't want to get involved in that application though
<ScottK> It's not like it's 1.5 years without action.
<seb128> because Bjoern and him work in the same team
<seb128> no
<seb128> there has been 2 reviews
<czajkowski> seb128: seems fair
<seb128> and we think the issues got addressed
<seb128> but now it has been over a cycle where it's pending on the DMB to review the application again
<ScottK> Internally we've already asked the new DMB members to review his situation.
<seb128> ScottK, that doesn't seem to happen though
<ScottK> So it's about as in progress as it can get.
<seb128> people say that for over a cycle
<seb128> not sure I trust it
<mhall119> ScottK: has that review happened yet? how long ago where they asked?
<elfy> hi - sorry I'm late
<ScottK> mhall119: I don't know who has or hasn't looked at the history.
<mhall119> ScottK: do you know how long ago they were asked to review it?
<ScottK> I understand the frustration.  Not sure what more I can do.
<ScottK> I don't recall.  It was recently though.  In the last few weeks.
<YokoZar> Ahh
<YokoZar> I feel like we may be about to have the same conversation we had with the membership boards
<mhall119> seb128: you said the application has been worked on, was there an issue before that the DMB asked to get resolved? and if so, has that been resolved now?
<seb128> Laney wrote an email "maybe we should look at it again" like a month ago, but that didn't trigger lot of reply
<seb128> bdmurray asked for some details like 3 weeks after that
<YokoZar> whereby some sort of more complete "system" for tracking folks in the pipeline is needed
<seb128> he's the only one that responded so far it seems
<dholbach> YokoZar, we should probably first find out how many cases like this there are
<seb128> I don't have access to their mailing list though, I was just Cced on that particular email discussion
<ScottK> His situation is pretty unique.
<dholbach> seb128, it sounds like the CC could try to help revive the discussion
<mhall119> ScottK: in what way?
<czajkowski> ScottK: roughly how long does it usually take for an application ?
<ScottK> Usually just a few weeks.
<ScottK> His situation predates my dmb membership.
<mhall119> ScottK: even with a unique situation, things shouldn't go this long without activity
<ScottK> Not all activity is visible.
<seb128> well, they shouldn't go that long with an update to the applicant
<mhall119> ScottK: shouldn't it be visible to the applicant?
<seb128> Bjoern is waiting to know what's going on for over a cycle
<seb128> he basically gave up at this point
<mhall119> ScottK: even a "we're reviewing it now and have questions about X, Y and Z"
<seb128> I'm pushing for him because that's ridiculous
<ScottK> I think a more correct status is that the last time the DMB voted, the answer was still no.  The new DMB members have been asked to review the record to see what their vote would be.
<czajkowski> seb128: so at this point we will chase up on things
<ScottK> No.
<czajkowski> and hopefully have bjorn an update one way or another at least to say it's been looked at
<ScottK> DMB is a TB delegate AIUI.
<czajkowski> but thank you for bringin this to us
<mhall119> ScottK: ok, so there was a vote, it was just a negative one
<ScottK> There have been several.
<ScottK> At least two, maybe more.
<seb128> czajkowski, thanks
<mhall119> ScottK: where the reasons for the negative vote given to the applicant, and where they resolved before it went up to vote again?
<YokoZar> Thank you both
<czajkowski> seb128: np but in future please bring things sooner to us :)
<seb128> yeah
<seb128> the application got voted in the past
<czajkowski> right so seb128 anything else before we move onto the next catch up
<seb128> we believe the concerns have been addressed
<seb128> but it has been stucked for a while now trying to get that re-reviewed
<seb128> czajkowski, nothing from me no
<mhall119> dholbach: czajkowski: so do we have an action item for this?
<dholbach> yes, it's on the trello
<czajkowski> mhall119: yes follow up with dmb on mail
<mhall119> excellent
<mhall119> thanks seb128 and ScottK
<dholbach> thanks a bunch seb128!
<seb128> thanks everyone for the discussion ;-)
<elfy> thanks seb128
<czajkowski> right so moving on
<czajkowski> next item is Catch up with the DMB
<czajkowski> sorry for no bot :)
<czajkowski> so is there anyone here fomr the DMB
<elfy> other than ScottK :)
<ScottK> AFAIK, I'm it.
<dholbach> how about bdrung, bdmurray, xnox, Laney, micahg, stgraber?
<czajkowski> ScottK: howdy so how are things in the land of DMB ?
<ScottK> Mostly quiet.
<ScottK> Community involvement in development seems much less than in the past.
<czajkowski> ScottK: Why is  that ?
<ScottK> Canonical has organized itself so that not that many of it's people seem to care about upload rights.
<dholbach> ?
<ScottK> My guess is that people have pretty much given up on Ubuntu as a community project.
<mhall119> ScottK: can you elaborate on that a bit?
<mhall119> what exactly has changed in the organization?
<ScottK> The CI train process that's in place lets people upload code to PPAs that after some review gets copied into Ubuntu.
<ScottK> You don't need to be an ubuntu-dev to upload to those PPAs, so no incentive.
<ScottK> Or less anyway.
<ScottK> There are some who apply.
<dholbach> Do you feel that with some encouragement or some discussions this could be changed?
<dholbach> Others had to be convinced to apply for upload rights in the past too... :)
<mhall119> ScottK: my understanding is that the CI process is changing, and that the changes will bring it more into alignment with how things used to be, is that correct?
<ScottK> mhall119: My understanding is that the technical rights will better match the general archive permissions model, but the CI process will still work pretty much as it does now for individual developers.
<mhall119> ScottK: also, is it a bad thing that the process for non-devs to get packages and changes into Ubuntu has become easier?
<ScottK> mhall119: I think it's a bad thing that non-developers who happen to work for Canonical get a back door into the archive.  I'm glad it's being fixed.
<YokoZar> Are we losing something from this organizational change?  Or is it more the case that Canonical staff who don't apply for developer status weren't doing much other than their canonical job
<ScottK> Generally that's all they do.
<ScottK> There doesn't seem to be much involvement with the broader community (that I can see).
<ScottK> Of course a lot of stuff is happening around things like the phone where I don't necessarily see it.
<mhall119> ScottK: and you think that community contributors are less active because canonical devs can upload through the CI process?
<ScottK> No.
<ScottK> Two issues.
<dholbach> This is not just "Canonical staff", but everyone who contributes to projects which use the CI process.
<ScottK> dholbach: As a practical matter virtually everyone who uses CI works for Canonical.
<dholbach> Also I think it makes sense to mention that there are code reviews being done plus extensive automated testing.
<dholbach> ScottK, there are contributions outside Canonical
<ScottK> That's not inconsistent with what I said.
<ScottK> Either way, bypassing the archive permissions model was a bad choice IMO.
<mhall119> keeping the topic focused on community developers, are we actually seeing a decine in their involvement and if so what do you think is the primary cause of that decline?
<ScottK> It's less a community project than it used to be.
<ScottK> It's also less cutting edge.
<mhall119> ScottK: why do you think the perception is that it's less of a community project?
<ScottK> Because it is less of a community project.
<mhall119> is it because canonical staff are given more access than they had in the past? or have we done something that gives community *less* access?
<ScottK> I don't think it's just a perception thing.
<ScottK> Canonical is increasingly taking Ubuntu in it's own direction.
<ScottK> No one outside Canonical had any say in Unity, Mir, etc.
<dholbach> How? Where do you feel it should be easier to participate?
<YokoZar> This sentiment is not new, and ScottK is certainly not alone in it
<ScottK> My assumption, and I'm not alone in this, is that eventually things like Kubuntu will become impractical because Ubuntu will be too different from the rest of the FOSS world.
<dholbach> Are there specific technical discussions to be had, which haven't yet?
<mhall119> ScottK: so what do you think changed to cause this? or, inversely, what do you think can be changed to correct it?
<dholbach> Or is this more of a hypothetical concern?
<dholbach> I think this is an important subject, and we sort of touched upon it in the meeting with the Kubuntu Council.
<dholbach> But I feel like we're talking a bit less about DMB subjects now.
<mhall119> ScottK: FWIW, I see a lot of "I feel it's this way because I see other people feel it's this way", but nothing I can actually change to fix it
<dholbach> If there are concrete technical matters which should be discussed, the CC would be happy to help bring the right people to a table.
<elfy> mhall119: that may well be the case - but it doesn't stop that being what people take home
<mhall119> elfy: I don't disagree, but it's not enough to say there's a problem if we don't know what needs to be fixed
<mhall119> it's like a bug report that says "Ubuntu's broken"
<elfy> :)
<YokoZar> There have been some prominent "Ubuntu is less on its own" developments recently (eg Systemd)
<mhall119> dholbach is right though, this is a separate discussion from the DMB catchup itself
<dholbach> I don't feel like the systemd discussion can be classified as "Ubuntu was on its own".
<mhall119> I think we should have this discussion though, so maybe we can schedule a time and day for it?
<dholbach> I don't think that's fair. Nobody can expect a distro to move to a new init system that quickly. Especially if you have something that's well for you.
<ScottK> I think the reduction in community DMB application is a consequence of this feeling.
<ScottK> So it's all DMB related.
<mhall119> ScottK: I'm not saying it's not a DMB concern, just that it deserves a full hour (at least) on it's own
<ScottK> I think it is what it is.
<mhall119> trying to resolve it in a catch-up meeting wouldn't be giving it the attention it deserves
<YokoZar> dholbach: what I mean is that one possible outcome of the systemd/upstart discussion would be that Ubuntu would be the only distro in the world doing upstart while everyone else eventually went to systemd.
<YokoZar> If you have another dozen different fundamental differences like that between Ubuntu and rest of FOSSland, non ubuntu-specific projects on Ubuntu become harder.
<ScottK> It's not a direction the community picked and it's not a direction the community can change.
<dholbach> ScottK, what can't be changed?
<ScottK> Canonical moving Ubuntu away from the rest of the FOSS world.
<ScottK> I can be changed, but not from outside Canonical.
<ScottK> I/It
<mhall119> again, I think that if we can identify actual things, we can fix those actual things
<YokoZar> I think it's worth keeping in mind as a general thing to be wary of, specifics may have to wait for a later time (or meeting)
<mhall119> YokoZar: +1
<dholbach> If anyone disagreed with a specific decision by anyone working for Canonical, we have discussion forums for this and it can be brought up with a board like the TB.
<YokoZar> Catchup meetings are mostly about capturing this general wary sentiment, I'll note.  In that way this has been very helpful.
<ScottK> dholbach: Not for the things that are sabfl'ed in.
<mhall119> ScottK: I think it's important not to fall into fatalistic thinking like "It is what it is and it can't be changed", it can always be changed
<ScottK> mhall119: I didn't say it couldn't be changed.
<seb128> ScottK, the fact that unity uses Mir doesn't mean the community or Kubuntu or whoever has it forced on them
<ScottK> For now, that's true.
<dholbach> and if there are specific issues, they can be discussed and the CC would be happy to help with those
<seb128> the fact that it's "for now" is just an assumption that could turn to be false
<czajkowski> ScottK: do you think the rest of the DMB feels the same
<dholbach> ScottK, do you feel the general operations of the DMB are going fine though?
<mhall119> ScottK: so we have this channel for the next 3 minutes, are there any other DMB concerns that need to be brought up during this meeting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-20
<thedoctor> hi
<dholbach> Hello hello hello!
 * belkinsa is here for the meeting
<dholbach> Do we have anyone here to talk about the LoCo team portal?
<dholbach> let's see if the bot is back ;-)
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<costales> Hi dholbach :)
<PabloRubianes> hi
<dholbach> looks like it's not there :)
<coolbhavi> hey guys
<coolbhavi> :)
<belkinsa> o/
<balloons> o/
 * coolbhavi  is on the run on mobile 
<dholbach> brilliant
<dholbach> I just pinged a few other folks and it looks like we're ready to go
<dholbach> so at the last UOS we talked about LoCo teams and how it's sometimes hard to share information, like news, like pictures, like stuff about events, etc.
<mhall119> is daker coming?
<dholbach> I pinged him and he said he would be around
<dholbach> a lot of teams have their own discussion forums, blogs and websites
<dholbach> but it'd actually be nicer, if they could get the information out there to a lot more folks around the world
<dholbach> like, if my team does an event and has lots of pictures and a nice writeup, it'd be great if they could show off their work easily and thus inspire others around the world :)
<dholbach> during the session somebody brought up the picture feeds on loco.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> let me see if I can find an example link
<dholbach> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-mm/ for example
<coolbhavi> dholbach, how about having a syndication like planet ubuntu?
<dholbach> at the bottom you can see pictures from the Myanmar team
<dholbach> coolbhavi, exactly... that was the idea which was brought up during the session too
<dholbach> and because we felt that the discussion would probably take a bit longer, we decided to have a separate discussion about this
<coolbhavi> hmmm and we already have a on air session with locos running on in parallel
<dholbach> the last I remember from the session was that it'd be nice to offer some functionality in loco.u.c to allow teams to add pictures, or news stories or writeups or anything else
<dholbach> this would be great on its own already
<dholbach> but then it could probably be shared on Planet Ubuntu as well
<dholbach> (and maybe syndicated elsewhere?)
<coolbhavi> yep like a traceback
<dholbach> Do you have any additional ideas or thoughts or concerns about this?
<belkinsa> Yeah, since some of the active members of the LoCo's are not Ubuntu Members.  But if they had a way to post on the Portal, it would be nice, and have that synced with Planet.
<daker> hi
<mhall119> dholbach: coolbhavi: LTP already has the ability to aggregate rss feeds
<belkinsa> Ubuntu Planet is what I meant/
<dholbach> hey daker
<balloons> +1 the feed into planet idea.. not everyone has to be a member of ubuntu; if you are a part of the loco, and they release an official writeup, I'd love to see it in my feed ;-)
<mhall119> daker: does LTP currently export an RSS feed of news?
<belkinsa> I guess the lack of having active LoCo's is the main problem.
<dholbach> daker, here's some backlog: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7675086/
<belkinsa> But that's a different issue.
<daker> mhall119: no but we can add that
<mhall119> if we do that, I think we can add it ot the planet ubuntu syndication list
<dholbach> belkinsa, what we talked about at UOS was that there are probably many teams who have meetups and do stuff regularly, but nobody writes about it - or they don't share info and pics
<belkinsa> Oh duh, I forgot.
<dholbach> belkinsa, the idea was that if we make it easier, more would talk about it and come up with new ideas together :)
<belkinsa> Right.
<costales> I think is a good idea :) I'm thinking that will be necesary to force the sign of the Conduct Code for those teams too
<belkinsa> Ubuntu Ohio is already doing this.
<costales> It'd be better for split my personal thoughts/posts from my team posts ;)
<belkinsa> And I think that should be true for all teams.
<mhall119> the homepage feed on LTP uses only hand-picked blogs, so we can export that to planet ubuntu and that should be enough oversight to keep inappropriate things out
<dholbach> yeah... I think we could test the new news feed for some time before adding it to the planet
<dholbach> just so we know it's not too much content, or too much spam, etc
<mhall119> IIRC, we have the loco-council access to manage those feeds
<mhall119> /have/gave/
<dholbach> maybe we could do a monthly digest too ... or something
<belkinsa> +1 on the handpicked blogs
<coolbhavi> mhall119, how about team owners moderating the content?
<costales> Just an idea: Split the planet in 2 tabs: Members | Teams. It could be interesting for split the contents (maybe :)
<coolbhavi> and posting across
<belkinsa> costales, I like that idea.
<mhall119> coolbhavi: team admins can manage their team's aggregation, but the homepage uses a separate selection
<belkinsa> But you need two RSS feeds for that.
<mhall119> coolbhavi: basically teams can add any feed they want to their team, but then the LC can tag a feed to appear on the homepage as well
<coolbhavi> ok got it mow seems good
<dholbach> Or team members could write up something and team contacts/admins could approve this as content which goes out to everyone?
<coolbhavi> dholbach, +1
<mhall119> dholbach: that would be harder to manage
<belkinsa> dholbach, +1, but as mhall119, I agree.
<mhall119> doing it per-feed is easy, doing it per-post would require more work in LTP
<dholbach> mhall119, it could just be a tag of the post?
<mhall119> dholbach: I don't think the aggregator library we're using gives us that easily
<dholbach> ah ok... I wasn't aware of the technical limitations, sorry
<daker> mhall119: no teams can't add their RSS feeds rightnow, only LC can
<dholbach> but would some copying between feeds work?
<mhall119> daker: ok, but the data structure would allow that right? We just need to expose it by adding a couple of new pages
<daker> mhall119: yes
<dholbach> so all we have right now is an aggregator library? is there any blogging library installed as well? or would we expect users to blog elsewhere and we just syndicate?
<mhall119> dholbach: for the first-round can we just use feed where the source blog uses a specific category or tag to limit it to content they want to appear on LTP?
<mhall119> dholbach: they would blog elsewhere
<dholbach> I'm just trying to understand where we are right now and what would easily be possible :)
<dholbach> mhall119, daker: how would you imagine the new "share story" process to work? what would be the easiest thing we could add?
<mhall119> dholbach: we could probably fake a feed in the aggregation data tables and have code that copies content from a source feed into that fake one
<costales> dholbach: What about to create 1 special user for the Planet with an URL > that URL will be a RSS Feed. You will not need to change anything now (?)
<coolbhavi> costales, like a permalink :)
<dholbach> hum... so step 1) team adds team blog feed to LTP, 2) team member blogs on blog feed, uses special tag or category, 3) blog entry ends up in LTP aggregation feed, 4) by extension goes to planet ubuntu as well - is this right?
<balloons> so everything would post as "Loco Teams" or something.. all feeds would show up as the same person?
<belkinsa> dholbach, that might work but again management could be an issue.
<mhall119> balloons: depends on how planet planet works, if it uses the author tag of the feed, we can give it the original blog's author
<dholbach> costales, yes, that's right - the question is just "who gets to post to the blog you add to Planet?"
<dholbach> mhall119, daker: are the steps I mentioned above how you roughly imagine it'd work?
<mhall119> dholbach: roughly yes, doing it per-feed to start would be easiest and we can add per-post moderation from there
<coolbhavi> dholbach, how about giving the user permissions to add other users based on request?
<dholbach> coolbhavi, I would assume that's possible - it'd just be a question how much we open the gates to spamming or general (on-topic) flooding of Planet Ubuntu :)
<costales> coolbhavi: Maybe a Launchpad Team with another repository feed?
<dholbach> mhall119, earlier you mentioned some copying that takes place as part of aggregation - I assume that'd be a point where we could make changes to the posts? I was thinking of doing things like adding jump marks (read more âhereâ) or doing things like digests (weekly LoCo roundup or something)
<coolbhavi> hmm thats a concern :)
<daker> dholbach: yes
<dholbach> brilliant
<mhall119> dholbach: that might take a bit more work, but it's possible yes
<dholbach> I don't think we would need this in a first iteration - I was just asking out of interest
<mhall119> dholbach: simple aggregation and re-feeding to planet wouldn't involve copying or editing though
<dholbach> that's right
<dholbach> that sounds like a good first start already and I'm quite happy with what we could do in future iterations :)
<dholbach> any more thoughts, ideas, questions, or anything else we didn't talk about yet?
<mhall119> daker: my other thought was to generate an RSS feed for events and meetings, that would automatically be published to planet
<belkinsa> +1
<belkinsa> Along with blog posts.
<dholbach> nice one
<mhall119> so, the feed shows any events or meetings that have already happened or are happing that day (but not future ones)
<mhall119> like an automated announcement
<costales> +1 nice idea! mhall119
<belkinsa> Yeah, but maybe have some time before the furture one
<mhall119> that might encourage more teams to use LTP for those, so they get that reposted to planet
<belkinsa> Maybe a month?
<dholbach> why not future events/meetings?
<mhall119> belkinsa: not too much, maybe 24 hours
<dholbach> ah ok
<mhall119> dholbach: what's the point in advertising your Ubuntu Hour for December in June?
<costales> mhall119: maybe the mettings for the next 2/3 days, because the posts are in the planet 2/3 days
<dholbach> no, not like that
<mhall119> the feed would show "the current loco activity"
<dholbach> you said "not future ones"
<belkinsa> mhall119, assuming they will post a blog post about that event/meeting?
<dholbach> that's why I thought "well, some advance notice would probably help getting others there" :-)
<dholbach> so yeah, 24h or whatever timing we finetune it to later on
<belkinsa> Same here.
<mhall119> ok, fine-tuning that is easy enough
<dholbach> yeah, sorry - that's what I meant
<mhall119> dholbach: are you taking notes on this somewhere that we can turn into work items or bug reports?
<ishwon> Aaah! I was having dinner & I guess I missed a lot.
<dholbach> I took an action at UOS to turn this into a mini-spec
<ishwon> Hi folks!
<dholbach> I'll save the irc logs and write something up next week.
<dholbach> Would anyone want to help turn this into a mini-spec?
<daker> mhall119: yes we can do that
<dholbach> Once it's done, I'd bring up the discussion on loco-contacts@ and ltp-devs@.
<costales> Hi ishwon o/
<mhall119> dholbach: daker: how about having a hackday on IRC where we try and get new contributors setup with an LTP development environment?  currently it's only daker working on it and he's also working on about a dozen other Ubuntu projects
<dholbach> sure sure
<dholbach> that was the idea behind the spec
<dholbach> if we put it out there and blog about it, it'll be more likely that others help out
<coolbhavi> dholbach, great thanks :) I would be glad to help for a mini spec here btw
<dholbach> having a hackday accompanying that sounds great
<daker> mhall119: hm this reminds me that i didn't get a reponse about RT ticket from IS
<dholbach> thanks coolbhavi
<ishwon> Scrolling through the chat log ( :
<mhall119> daker: RT for what?
<daker> mhall119: i released a new LTP version with some fixes last Saturday
<mhall119> ah, ok
<mhall119> daker: they had a DC outage over the weekend, so it may have been lost or forgotten in the mayhem
<PabloRubianes> daker: I made a bug on the LTP and a possible fix but maybe got unnoticed
<daker> mhall119: i'll ask later
<dholbach> does anyone else have any more ideas/questions/concerns/anything else on the topic? if not Bhavani and I (anyone else?) will digest the irc logs and massage them into a mini-spec and bring it up for discussion on the lists again.
<dholbach> ... and we can discuss it some more at that time. :)
<coolbhavi> good with it here
<coolbhavi> :)
<mhall119> dholbach: do you think we need to ask permission before adding the LTP feeds to the planet aggregation?
<mhall119> or, since we're Ubuntu Members, can we JFDI?
<dholbach> mhall119, I think we should discuss it with the Community Council and maybe have a brief history of content to look back to.
<mhall119> ok
<dholbach> I could imagine that it'd be a very short discussion as it's going to very much on-topic. :)
<mhall119> ok
<dholbach> Brilliant! Thanks a lot everyone! I'm very much looking forward to reading more from teams around the world! :-D
<belkinsa> Thanks for the meeting, dholbach!
<coolbhavi> dholbach, ll bring up a small wiki page reg ideas and get in touch with you on weekend :)
<coolbhavi> thanks btw
<dholbach> coolbhavi, brilliant
<mhall119> thanks daker for your continued work on LTP
<dholbach> yeah, daker - you're a hero!
<daker> mhall119: dholbach yw :)
<dholbach> thanks a lot to all the other heroines and heroes in here as well :)
<belkinsa> \o/
<coolbhavi> :)
<daker> PabloRubianes: i saw it, i'll review it during the w-e
<PabloRubianes> daker: thanks
<costales> Thank you! \o/
<costales> It was a pleasure
 * coolbhavi goes and grabs some dinner
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-15
<tyhicks> hello
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 15 16:33:03 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jjohansen> o/
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Thanks to LocutusOfBorg for help on security updates for the community supported gnutls28 (LP: #1326779) last week. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1326779 in gnutls28 (Ubuntu) "libgnutls28 appears to not have been updated for CVE-2014-3466 in Trusty" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1326779
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hello
<jdstrand> I have two embargoed issues I am working on
<jdstrand> work planning with tyhicks
<jdstrand> if those don't consume all of my time, finally start on seccomp policy regeneration on upgrade
<jdstrand> and keep working on security update processes for readonly images
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm working on wpa updates
<mdeslaur> and an embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> and will be going down the list after that
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week too
<mdeslaur> that's it for me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on CVE triage this week
<sbeattie> The trusty apparmor SRU just needs to be promoted to trusty-updates, I am prodding the SRU team to do that.
<tyhicks> nice
<sarnold> nice :) thanks!
<sbeattie> I'm going to work on the gcc-pie stuff next, while looking at some more of the apparmor patches that have accumulated in the meantime.
<sbeattie> And that will probably consume my week
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I am working on an embargoed item
<tyhicks> I need to finish up my patch update testing and publish those updates
<tyhicks> continue apparmor list communications to identify and finish up the final patches for the 2.10 release
<tyhicks> that's it for now
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am going to be finishing up my dconf review and spending some time discussing that
<jjohansen> that is dconf apparmor work
<jjohansen> I need to do what ever is needed to help push through the caching api patches
<jjohansen> I have some revision to do on a couple patches for 2.10
<jjohansen> I need to open up the start of the next kernel update cycle
<jjohansen> I have the backport for bug 1460152 to finish up and test
<ubottu> bug 1460152 in Snappy "apparmor cache not updated when apparmor.d rules change (breaks 15.04/stable -> 15.04/edge updates)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1460152
<jjohansen> I have an apparmor kernel bug (that I have lost atm) to triage
<jjohansen> I have a few patches to push out to the kernel team
<jjohansen> a small pull request to pull together and send upstream
<jjohansen> and then perhaps I can get back to the rest of the upstream cleanup
<tyhicks> lots of stuff on your todo list this week
<tyhicks> too much, probably
<tyhicks> once I get through some of mine, I'll check in to see if I can help out
<sbeattie> yeah, just thinking the same.
<tyhicks> jjohansen: should I take over the backporting for bug 1460152?
<ubottu> bug 1460152 in Snappy "apparmor cache not updated when apparmor.d rules change (breaks 15.04/stable -> 15.04/edge updates)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1460152
<tyhicks> I'm now very familiar with that part of the parser
<sarnold> heh
<jjohansen> tyhicks: nah, I am basically done with it, there is a bit I need to figure out/verify but was feeling too stupid at 3am this morning. You can review and test if you want
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> then maybe I can help with the ubuntu kernel pull requests
<tyhicks> we'll talk about it later
<jjohansen> tyhicks: sure
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; I'm also going to brain-dump what I learned working with canonistack, I think I'm nearing the end of the openstack issues re-triaging, and will return to MIR auditing
<sarnold> I'll also try to pick up an apparmor patch review here or there
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<mdeslaur> does that mean we're getting openstack updates soon?
<chrisccoulson> This week, I'll be spending some time getting through code reviews
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: it doesn't
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: I think someone else (possibly me) will try to pick them up after the brain dump
<chrisccoulson> I'll also be picking off other bugs on https://launchpad.net/oxide/+milestone/branch-1.9, although I'm not sure which ones I'll do this week yet
<chrisccoulson> And I also plan to get ubufox in to a reviewable state so that we can get it signed
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ltp.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libcgi-application-perl.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gif2png.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/openvswitch.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libphp-adodb.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 15 17:00:23 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-15-16.33.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thank you!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-16
<arosales> zul, looks like you chaired last week correct?
<smoser> o/
<teward> o/
<jamespage> o/
<smb> o/
<hallyn> \o
<matsubara> o/
 * arosales guessing zul chaired last week and its my turn
<hallyn> then zul didn't update the page
<caribou> o/
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 16 16:02:18 2015 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<beisner> o/
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
 * arosales doesn't see any action items from the previous meeting
<arosales> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> #info Alpha 1 coming up June 25
<coreycb> o/
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
 * arosales trying to pull up http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server . . . 
<arosales> is that URL working for others?
<teward> arosales: site death perhaps, the white page of death
<teward> oh wait
<rharper> \o
<teward> nope
<teward> wpod, still, arosales
<teward> i think it's down
<arosales> just whit page for me
<caribou> wpod for me
<arosales> *white
<beisner> :-/  0k file
<teward> arosales: codenamed: "White Page Of Death" - WPOD
<teward> contact canonical sysadmins for fixing?
<rharper> beisner: indeed
<arosales> teward, ack, WPOD it seems
<arosales> rharper, can you take that action?
<rharper> arosales: sure
<arosales> #action rharper to follow up with canonical sysadmins on  http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server WPOD
<meetingology> ACTION: rharper to follow up with canonical sysadmins on  http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server WPOD
<arosales> thanks rharper
<arosales> any bugs folks would like to discuss before moving on
<arosales> I'll take it folks are ready for BPs then
<arosales> . . .
<arosales> #subtopic Blueprints
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/group/topic-w-server.html
<arosales> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/group/topic-w-server.html   not working for me either today
<teward> arosales: confirmed, 404.
<arosales> we have http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/group/topic-w-openstack.html
<arosales> but not server
<arosales> rharper, smoser: do you guys have a topic BP?
<smoser> checking. i dont think we probably do.
<smoser> or i do not think we do
<matsubara> arosales, http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/canonical-server.html and http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/ubuntu-server.html might give a better overview of server BPs
<matsubara> since the topic url is not working...
<arosales> matsubara, ok, do folks agree here we should update the meeting commands to these links?
 * matsubara doesn't really know what's more appropriate in this case
<arosales> #action smoser update Topic blueprint URLs, if necessary
<meetingology> ACTION: smoser update Topic blueprint URLs, if necessary
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/canonical-server.html
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-w-openstack-liberty progressing
<arosales> sorry
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-w-openstack-liberty
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/ubuntu-server.html
<arosales> same blueprint there
<arosales> and as said before servercloud-w-openstack-liberty is progressing
<arosales> but seems there should be some other BPs there . .  .
<arosales> smoser, jamespage need to follow up if the correct BPs are linked  ^
<arosales> perhaps because https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-w-server is blank atm ?
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-w-server
<arosales> in any case an action item is made to follow up.
<arosales> Ping here if folks have any BPs items they would like to surface
<arosales> . . .
<arosales> moving on
<arosales> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> nothing major to me; mostly done with rsyslog merge
<arosales> caribou, thanks for the update
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> arosales, nothing new to report
<arosales> matsubara, ok, thanks
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> I have nothing today if nobody else has anything.
<arosales> any questions for smb (kernel)?
<arosales> . . .
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> If any folks are interested in Spark. I am currently at Spark Summit and we'll be hosting an even tonight
<arosales> https://insights.ubuntu.com/event/big-data-mine-and-mingle/
<arosales> sorry
<arosales> #link https://insights.ubuntu.com/event/big-data-mine-and-mingle/
<arosales> any others?
<arosales> . . .
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<arosales> other items?
<teward> i think there's a missing item
<teward> which agenda page are you using, the ServerTeam/Meeting one?
<arosales> teward, using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/IRCCommands
<arosales> linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<arosales> teward, was there another topic?
<teward> arosales: there's an item on the Agenda page added by me, and I'd like Server Team input on the course of action
<teward> arosales: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting - NGINX in Ubuntu: Course of Action discussion (teward)
<teward> popped on in the middle of last week
<arosales> teward, ahh, sorry for missing that
<teward> perhaps it was missed?
<teward> no problem :)
<arosales> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2015-June/007072.html
<teward> Previously, up until now, Debian was using a Stable branch of the NGINX web server's code as the package base.
<teward> Recently, based on what they do with Debian release times as far as I can gather, they're now using an NGINX Mainline branch, which is their feature-development branch.
<teward> Further questions on that branch can be directed to LinuxJedi who is here currently, and is a Senior Developer Advocate for the nginx upstream people
<LinuxJedi> o/
<teward> Currently, as of 15.04, we are using the Stable branch of NGINX in Ubuntu, which is mirroring Debian's choice of package versions.  However, following them will have Wily get 1.9.1 currently, which will likely remain that way through next LTS
<teward> While both versions are 'stable' enough to be used in production environments, and indeed I do have a couple Mainline nginx versions running in production, that is a changing development branch, replete with new features.
<teward> 1.8.x is the NGINX Stable branch, which receives critical bug fixes and security updates but forgoes the additional features.
<hallyn> you expect a stable branch of the current devel branch by 16.02 ?
<teward> hallyn: from what LinuxJedi has told me, such release (1.10.x) will be very near or after FinalFreeze or release date for LTS
<hallyn> that's unfortunate :)
<LinuxJedi> but there shouldn't be much change from 1.9.x to 1.10.0 at that stage
<teward> they release the 'mainline' as stable in April, and judging by the last release date, April 21, on or near that date would put us really close to release date
<hallyn> but if we could get a 1.10.alpha1 that might be good.  i assume the stable releases will be supported much longer than devel
<hallyn> i think it's worth asking the release time for best option there
<teward> To finish my initial thought stream: I'd like the Server Team to provide some guidance for Wily, as to how we proceed
<hallyn> hm, no rbasak today
<teward> A merge of 1.9.1 wouldn't take too long.  Merging in changes from Debian's packaging and merging that with 1.8.x is doable by myself, but would diverge from the standard process of getting packaging from Debian
<hallyn> you already emailed ubntu-server about this right?
<teward> hallyn: indeed.  I did ask Seth Arnold (sarnold) for his opinions, he responded to the email thread on the server mailing list
<smoser> teward, well, the questions hallyn asked apply for wily as well as x (16.04)
<hallyn> right,
<teward> hallyn: the email link that arosales posted.
<teward> smoser: indeed.
<teward> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2015-June/007072.html
<smoser> we dont want to move forward in wily if we would then have to move back.
<hallyn> i'd follow sarnold's guidance :)
<hallyn> teward: how long do you expect 1.9 to be supported?
<LinuxJedi> it is worth noting that useful LTS features such as HTTP/2 will be in 1.10
<teward> hallyn: doing so would place us on 1.9.x.
<teward> hallyn: until 1.10.x release in April, I believe.  LinuxJedi: that's the upstream support period, if I'm not mistaken?
<LinuxJedi> correct
<hallyn> teward: i'm wondering whehter we can put things in place now to take 1.9 now, and have process ready to take 1.10 as an exceptional sru in 16.05
<hallyn> or, again,
<hallyn> ask upstream for a alpha or beta release in feb or march of 2016
<smoser> hallyn is right. this is not significantly different then what we do for openstack.
<smoser> or at least possibly not much different
<rharper> if 1.9.x isn't far apart from 1.10.0, why wouldn't 1.9 have the http2 and other features we'd want in the LTS?
<LinuxJedi> it will
<hallyn> not htat we want it to become the norm :)  but in 2019 we'll likely be wishing we'd done it
<hallyn> rharper: it's just that 1.9 likely won't be supported for 5 years upstream, so a stable would be nicer for 16.04
<teward> rharper: provided Debian has it uploaded and available, I'd rather *not* have to do manual source version merges by hand, although I do so for the PPAs already provided under ~nginx on Launchpad
<LinuxJedi> 1.9.x is mainline where new features are added. 1.10.0 will be the end release of the 1.9.x series
<rharper> right, the support from upstream
<rharper> teward: and the package maint;
<hallyn> teward: ok, let's see if rbasak is willing to take this to release team, if not i'll volunteer ,t ocome up with options
<LinuxJedi> we have odd numbers for mainline and even numbers for stable. And only one odd and one even maintained at any time (so currently 1.8 and 1.9 are maintained)
<hallyn> ok how long will 1.10 be supported?
<LinuxJedi> until 1.12
<hallyn> which is when
<teward> hallyn: ack
<teward> hallyn: april 2017
<hallyn> nyears
<hallyn> hm
<LinuxJedi> 1 year
<hallyn> so tha'ts not much of an extra cushion
<hallyn> so we really want an MRE here or something
<teward> hallyn: MRE was considered in the past but we have a weird exception:
<teward> nginx-core is in main, the other flavors are in Universe, because of third party modules
<teward> and security team suggestions/recommendations during the MIR
<teward> (back for 14.04)
<hallyn> ok i'll need to go read the MIR comments then
<hallyn> (assuming rbasak doesn't handle it :)
<teward> hallyn: i think the MRE discussion wasn't on the MIR, and was handled after the fact
<hallyn> teward: do you have links?  can you send them in a reply to sarnold's email?
<hallyn> (bc i haven't got the thread to reply to)
<teward> hallyn: to the discussions?  I could try and find the irclogs links, but I think my discussions with rbasak on that were in private
<hallyn> oh, ok
<hallyn> np
<teward> the MIR was https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nginx/+bug/1262710
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1262710 in nginx (Ubuntu) "[MIR] nginx" [Undecided,Fix released]
<hallyn> arosales: can you post an action for me to follow up (email rbasak etc)?
<arosales> #action hallyn to see if rbasak is willing to take this (nginx version in 15.10 and looking to 16.04)  to release team, if not hallyn to volunteer, to come up with options
<meetingology> ACTION: hallyn to see if rbasak is willing to take this (nginx version in 15.10 and looking to 16.04)  to release team, if not hallyn to volunteer, to come up with options
<hallyn> thx
<arosales> thanks hallyn
<smoser> thank you teward
<teward> you're welcome, and thank you all for your time on this :)
<arosales> teward, and LinuxJedi thanks for bringing up this topic
<LinuxJedi> no problem
<arosales> any other items to discuss?
<teward> arosales: you're welcome, thank you to the Server Team for taking the time to discuss.
<arosales> teward, np thats what this meeting is for. Sorry for missing your agenda item :-/
<teward> arosales: mistakes happen, no worries :0
<teward> :) *
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<arosales> #info chair = hallyn per the list
<hallyn> woohoo
<arosales> #info NEXT MEETING: Tuesday 2015-06-23 at 1600 UTC
<arosales> thanks everyone
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 16 16:36:55 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-16-16.02.moin.txt
<teward> thanks, all.
<teward> thanks LinuxJedi for taking the time out of your schedule to be here :)
<LinuxJedi> no problem. If you need me for any followups feel free to shoot me a message or email :)
<teward> LinuxJedi: will do, thanks again.
<teward> and thanks, arosales, and server team.
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 16 17:00:02 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Wily
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<bjf> o/
<henrix> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<arges> i/
<sforshee> o/
<smb> o/
<cking> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Our wily kernel remains rebased on 4.0.5.  We have uploaded but are
<ogasawara> planning to land some additional config changes before we have the
<ogasawara> kernel promoted out of wily-proposed.  Stay tuned.  We have also moved
<ogasawara> to tracking 4.1-rc8 on our master branch in
<ogasawara> git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/unstable.git .  We will plan to rebase
<ogasawara> Wily to 4.1 final once available.
<ppisati> o/
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs June 25 - Alpha 1 (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Thurs July 30 - Alpha 2 (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-cves.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   * Precise - Prep
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Prep
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Prep
<bjf>   *  Vivid  - Prep
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>      
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 13-Jun through 04-Jul
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          12-Jun   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 14-Jun - 20-Jun   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 21-Jun - 04-Jul   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 16 17:03:42 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-16-17.00.moin.txt
<elacheche_anis> wxl, ping
<lunapersa> hello wxl
<wxl> wazzup folks
<elacheche_anis> good wxl  u?
<elacheche_anis> don't( you have a meeting tonight?
<wxl> hanging in there
<wxl> busy at work
<wxl> yeah in 2 hrs
<wxl> loco council
<elacheche_anis> 2 hours!!
<elacheche_anis> in the Fridge's calander it's for 8pm GMT..
<wxl> well maybe i got my thing wrong i don't know
<elacheche_anis> x) :)
<lunapersa> :/
<elacheche_anis> :d
<elacheche_anis> :D
<wxl> not sure why i have it in at 3
<wxl> weird
<wxl> nope no meeting
<wxl> yay
<wxl> back to work :)
<lunapersa> ok wxl :)
<elacheche_anis> lucky wxl :D :p
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-18
<pitti> o/
<barry> o/
<sil2100> \o
<infinity> I refuse to admit I'm awake.
<robru> i arthur
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 18 15:03:22 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti)
<slangasek> doko jodh caribou robru bdmurray pitti barry cyphermox sil2100 slangasek stgraber infinity
<slangasek> doko: hi, around?
<pitti> is jodh even still officially in the team?
<slangasek> hmm, and we have a change to this list since last time...
<barry> slangasek: i think you need to update your shuf :)
<slangasek> next time should be:
<slangasek> echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti
<slangasek> yep
<slangasek> nd no caribou here today
<slangasek> robru:
<robru> one sec
<robru> * CI Train:
<robru>  - added script for scanning overlay PPA versions and comparing to wily archive; ensure that matching version numbers have matching binary hashes
<robru> * CI Train Charm:
<robru>  - stop clobbering creds with empty files if creds misconfigured
<robru>  - add relation for bileto
<robru> * Bileto:
<robru>  - fixed some postgres-specific bugs
<robru> * Bileto Charm:
<robru>  - add basenode support
<robru>  - add relation for ci-train
<robru> * Train mojo Spec:
<robru>  - added relation between ci-train and bileto
<robru>  - various iterations on postgres configuration
<robru> (done)
<sil2100> robru the magician, charming with his mojo!
<robru> heh
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<slangasek> robru: clobbering creds with empty files> I don't suppose that helps the postgres issues at all?
<bdmurray> continued to work on improvements to apport-retrace to check launchpad for packages not available in archive or on ddebs.u.c
<bdmurray> worked with pitti to get my apport use-lp branch merged (done!)
<bdmurray> worked on hacking in ppa support to apport-retrace
<bdmurray> pushed an apport branch (with a PPA hack) for the retracers to use
<bdmurray> updated daisy config for armhf 15.04 retracers for overlay ppa
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy / apport updated in staging
<robru> slangasek: no that's unrelated, that's on the ci-train side. #is doesn't have creds stored the same way we do in staging and so the charm was clobbering live creds with empty files.
<bdmurray> investigation into the right way to add ppa support to apport
<bdmurray> SRU verifications of python-pip bug fixing LP: #1324391 (fail, then pass)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324391 in python-pip (Ubuntu Trusty) "pip 1.5.4 import an invalid dependencies " [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324391
<bdmurray> discussed with mvo python-apt origin information and PPAs
<bdmurray> discussion with slangasek regarding overlay-ppa and old packages
<bdmurray> investigation into a phased-updater OOPS
<bdmurray> short week as I was in Rochester!
 * doko is a bit late ...
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> doko: hi, your turn
<sil2100> slangasek: that thing was probably related to the train outage we had on Friday when the cred files went missing
<slangasek> ok
<doko> five me 5min
<slangasek> alright then. pitti:
<pitti> systemd:
<pitti>  - create script to build debs for current systemd upstream trunk (into PPA, and running all autopkgtests locally), for a more proper trunk CI
<pitti>  - fix various build system and udev regressions in trunk
<pitti>  - enable net.ifnames persistant network names by default
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - set up ProdStack/Canonistack with IS for cloud-based autopkgtest running, and create autopkgtest cloud runner PoC
<pitti>  - various small improvements to adt-run
<pitti>  - revive armhf/ppc64el worker nodes after outage
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - review and land bdmurray's apport branch for downloading older sources/debs from LP
<pitti>  - build and test fresh vivid langpacks
<pitti>  - postgresql: prepare new upstream security/bug fix releases for all supported Ubuntu releases
<pitti>  - reproduce and analyze misconfigured/broken encrypted swap in LVM install mode (#1453738); in progress
<pitti>  - various bug fixes in open-scsi, udisks
<pitti> plan:
<pitti>  - systemd 221 is around the corner; unlike the previous two versions this should now be a breeze to land thanks to all the new CI
<pitti>  - continue working on cloud-based autopkgtest runner
<pitti>  - find some time to look into networkd integration with resolvconf and ifup.d/
<pitti> ^D
<barry> doko or me?
<slangasek> barry: go ahead, it hasn't been 5 minutes yet :)
<pitti> barry: 5 mins aren't over yet
<barry> sounds like a monty python sketch...
<barry> short week due to pto
<barry> debuntu: debian bug #776026; python-nose-exclude 0.2.0-4; zope.security 4.0.3-1; virtualenv 13.0.3-1 (ongoing), wheel 0.24.0-2; python-pip 1.5.4-1ubuntu3 for trusty;
<ubottu> Debian bug 776026 in src:wheel "wheel: please make whl files reproducible" [Wishlist,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/776026
<barry> si: 2.5.1 to the overlay; struggling with landing 3.0.1 in wily via train (and getting derailed)
<barry> started working on the python3.5 transition plan
<barry> other: upgrade bisecting and other debugging for LP: #1464365
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1464365 in xorg (Ubuntu) "Resolution is incorrect; screen mostly occluded" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1464365
<barry> --done--
<doko> - openjdk-9 fixes for ppc64el and arm64
<doko> - updated GCC 5 transition plan
<doko> - openjdk maintainer interviews
<doko> - preparing uploads for gcc 4.8, 4.9 and 5.x release candidates
<doko> - started doing some merges
<doko> - finally gcc-4.8 and binutils SRU's in trusty, uploaded cross packages
<doko> - uploaded python3.4 SRU's
<doko> (done)
<sil2100> cyphermox: ping
<cyphermox> sil2100: I'm on vacation, not actually there :)
<slangasek> cyphermox is still on vacation
<sil2100> Ah, ok :)
<slangasek> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Prepare OTA-4 release notes
<sil2100> - OTA-4 release:
<sil2100>   * Copying images and setting auto-phasing for the period of approx one day
<sil2100>   * Preparing community OTA-4 images, promoting those after basic QA
<sil2100>   * Promoting ubuntu-developer images
<sil2100>   * Preparing non-delta images for arale
<sil2100> - Identifying the system-image situation, preparing landing
<sil2100> - Leading the RTM status meeting
<sil2100> - Updating documentation regarding package twins
<sil2100> - Further work on commitlog generation
<sil2100> - Coordinating the Unity8 big landing
<sil2100> - Lack of sleep and overall tiredness for the whole week
<sil2100> Holiday tomorrow (Friday the 19th)
<sil2100> (done)
<infinity> Do you celebrate every Friday the 19th?
<slangasek> it's a very famous movie in Poland
<infinity> slangasek: (you're up)
<slangasek>  * helping unblock the libnettle transition; found blockage due to a mir-related API change that was causing gst-plugins-bad1.0 to FTBFS as of vivid release, working to unwind that through bug #1465958, now waiting for a platform-api landing
<ubottu> bug 1465958 in platform-api (Ubuntu) "gst-plugins-bad1.0 FTBFS: mirclient headers needed" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1465958
<slangasek>  * post mortem for the various issues we've run into over the past two months with the overlay ppa not being as featureful as the derived distribution out of the box
<slangasek>  * closing in on a decision for the Java maintainer role
<slangasek>  * new job opening in the process of being posted, should be visible tomorrow
<slangasek> (I know)
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> stgraber:
<stgraber>  - Was out on Friday. Now back in Montreal.
<stgraber>  - LXC/LXD
<stgraber>    - Working on LXD socket activation systemd units.
<stgraber>    - Made a first version of the LXD snap.
<stgraber>    - Working on the CI infrastructure for LXC-related projects a bit.
<stgraber>    - Spent quite a lot of time debugging a weird race condition in LXD.
<stgraber>    - Code reviews, bug triaging, other admin paperwork
<stgraber>  - Alpha-1
<stgraber>    - Some prepwork for alpha-1, mostly sorting out nusakan <-> tracker issues
<stgraber> (done)
<infinity> - Dealing with several transitions in wily
<infinity> - Not one, but *two* emergency kernel security updates
<infinity> - Fixed kernel autopkgtesting
<infinity> - General AA/SRU stuff
<infinity> - Looking into kernel changes we might need to build armhf on arm64
<infinity> - Sobbing uncontrollably over the loss of mvo
<infinity> - Mitigating the above with the 'yay pitti' happy dance
<infinity> - debian-installer and HWE work
<infinity> (done)
<stgraber> :)
<pitti> â© \o/ â« âª
<slangasek> infinity: that's to the tune of 'hey mickey', right?
<barry> infinity: where's the youtube video of that dance?
<pitti> (happy dance for fixing kernel tests)
<cyphermox> I think pitti wants to take over UTF-8 summary ending lead. :)
<infinity> barry: It's an easter egg in d-i, go find it.
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<barry> infinity: do you have to fix 5 bugs before it reveals itself?
<slangasek> oh, and doko's binutis/gcc SRUs got released in trusty
<infinity> Yeah, which means we can probably undo a hack in linux-lts-vivid.
<slangasek> (only ignoring 3 and 6 autopkgtest regressions respectively)
 * infinity makes a note.
<doko> autopkgtest regressions for trusty?
<slangasek> doko: yes; not caused by either of your SRUs, just caused by letting autopkgtests bitrot for a year in trusty before we started looking at them again
<slangasek> some of them being network-related failures
<sil2100> slangasek: were you able to make that document with the side-by-side comparison of overlay and derived distro for olli?
<slangasek> some being mysql tests that fail because time doesn't stand still and SSL certificates expired
<doko> ahh, I see. where can you see these?
<slangasek> sil2100: in progress; will be done this morning
<pitti> I sent a summary to u-devel@; mostly because of tests relying on quirks/bugs of the null runner which we used back then
<sil2100> Thanks!
<slangasek> doko: you probably can't get a link to the specific set anymore now that we've released the SRUs; there's nothing that you should need to look at however
<slangasek> the most interesting one was a lintian testsuite failure claiming that a binary was now a corrupted elf object - but that error started happening a week *before* binutils was uploaded to trusty-proposed
<infinity> pitti: Speaking of, did you want back on ~ubuntu-sru and ~ubuntu-release so you can have a bit more direct control over this madness?
<pitti> infinity: I need ~release for that, right?
<infinity> pitti: release for devel series, sru for SRUs.
<bdmurray> infinity: you are just going to let this new guy on these teams?
<infinity> pitti: We split the hints across the teams, just like we split the queues.
<infinity> bdmurray: He's emeritus on both teams. :P
<bdmurray> infinity: He might have forgotten how to do things!
<infinity> That's a chance I'm willing to take.
<pitti> I just select all and click "accept"
<infinity> Okay, not willing anymore.
<cyphermox> pitti: I think you mean select all and click Reject :)
<pitti> I'm not yearning for more work, just to manage stuff that's innocently stuck in -proposed a little better
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> doko: fwiw if you want an overview of failing autopkgtests, in theory https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Trusty/view/AutoPkgTest/ is some kind of one
<infinity> pitti: Team membership doesn't imply forced duties, though it might get you pinged occasionally for help with something.  Anyhow, your call, no one's voluntold into these teams.
<doko> slangasek, thanks, not so nice as update_excuses ...
<pitti> infinity: right, please add me
<stgraber> pitti: select all and click "reject" with "Spite" as the reason, everyone will think you're infinity :)
<infinity> slangasek: Did anyone investigate the lintian regression and sort out what it really was?  The last time lintian had a testsuite explosion like that, it really was a (weird) toolchain regression.
<slangasek> doko: update_excuses gives you the overview for packages that are in progress. for SRUs that were already accepted, it no longer applies
<pitti> oh, we don't have archives for SRUs
<pitti> we do have them for devel
<infinity> pitti: Reactivated in both.
<slangasek> infinity: no.  what I did sort out was that the timing didn't line up with the binutils change, which was what had triggered the test rerun
<pitti> actually, I lie: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses/trusty/
<pitti> ^ should have all the old excuses?
<slangasek> infinity: (nor the gcc change; first lintian test failure was May 4, SRU accepts were May 13-14)
<slangasek> pitti: oh, it should? interesting
<infinity> slangasek: Sure, timing says it clearly wasn't *that* upload, still would be nice to figure out the cause.  Maybe I'll poke later in my copious free time.
<pitti> conveniently un-clickable, but at least there
<slangasek> doko: ^^ so there is an archive of the excuses if you really care; but with my SRU hat I already reviewed them and declared them to be false positives
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<infinity> Sure.  Since we already hijacked the meeting for sru/release stuff...
<pitti> yes, right now we need to mostly ignore trusty, unless we upload a couple of SRUs to fix tests
<infinity> slangasek, stgraber, pitti : ~ubuntu-release only has one Admin (me), which is suboptimal.  Anyone want to volunteer to be a second Admin?
<slangasek> are we actually to where we're meant to be wrt not regressing the testbeds?
<slangasek> infinity: you can give me bits
<pitti> slangasek: since utopic, yes; trusty had a completely different infrastructure
<infinity> slangasek: Done.
<slangasek> pitti: my meaning is: are we at the point now where the testbed we're using to test trusty SRUs properly models what we were using at the time of trusty release
<slangasek> (per the discussion in Austin)
<infinity> slangasek: I think he's saying "close as it can get", since the runner is completely different, and we can't fix that.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> I did see some test failures that appeared to be regressions in the network policy
<slangasek> i.e., use of proxy + accessing Canonical network resources still returning a failure
<pitti> slangasek: they now have build-essential pre-installed; but e. g. the "tests don't have their build deps installed" behaviour is still differnet
<pitti> that too
<pitti> but there's not much I can do about that, we don't have unrestricted network there
<infinity> Network policy is about to change again, so that's an ongoing battle.
<infinity> But hopefully we can do it smoothly.
<slangasek> I'm not asking for an unrestricted network
<pitti> infinity: in scalingstack you mean?
<slangasek> I'm asking for the network policy to actually match what I understood to have been agreed with CI :)
<infinity> pitti: Yeah.  Though, we can probably do better with the move to scalingstack.
<slangasek> which was "external resources on the Canonical network ok (but not yet implemented); truly external resources outside of our control, not ok"
<pitti> slangasek: ah, we still have the old "anything goes via proxy" policy ATM
<slangasek> barry: ^^ this also impacts your system-image tests of course, so if you want to know when your autopkgtests will be allowed to work... :)
<stgraber> ah, that wasn't what you last told me, if that's the plan, then I'll have to turn off a bunch of tests in the LXC testsuite with the next upload
<slangasek> pitti: oh, ok.  I saw some test failures that implied that things were not working, including using the proxy
<pitti> was that "no arbitrary net access" already decided? (I object rather strongly..)
<infinity> I object to that too, unless Debian adopts the same policy.
<stgraber> unless "external resources on the Canonical network ok" includes "squid.internal" in which case, I've got what I need
<infinity> Cause hacking every test from Debian is ungood.
<barry> slangasek: yeah.  although i haven't gotten that far yet, i did re-enable the autopkgtests that do smoketesting against s-i.u.c
<slangasek> tests relying on arbitrary external resources are unreliable tests
<pitti> well, we would just change "one out of 1000 runs fails" with "all runs fail"
<pitti> TBH, the unreliability of tests pales compared to the unreliability of our infrastructure
<pitti> to the point that I can't even remember a single case
<pitti> I mean wrt. remote net access, not in general
<barry> it's also not necessarily a bad thing if you learn that a test relying on an external resource is failing <wink>
<pitti> if I have to retry a failed net-accessing test twice a year, I'll be reeeeeeally happy :)
<slangasek> stgraber: well, at least for the moment it's possible to access via the proxy
<slangasek> (except when this randomly doesn't work)
<infinity> slangasek: We did note that there are valid uses for tests talking to external resources, but often those don't relate to uploads, but should be daily "does my IM client software still work" tests.
<stgraber> slangasek: ok. I got a bunch of e-mails about test failures and the log looked like no network connectivity but it wasn't triggered by one of my uploads so I didn't really look into the failure
<slangasek> infinity: yes
<infinity> slangasek: But if we figure out how to cater to that case, we still need to be able to talk to external resources to do it.
<slangasek> infinity: the conclusion was "this doesn't belong in an autopkgtest run as part of proposed-migration"
<infinity> slangasek: Sure, "... as part of p-m", I agree with, but we're building infra that should be flexible and reusable.
<slangasek> it can be run under a different tenant with a different network policy
 * infinity shrugs.
<slangasek> using the same charm on the same cloud
<infinity> Anyhow, stgraber's use case also seems reasonable.  Unless we want to host all his blobs in our network just to make the test 100% reliable instead of 99%, which seems like overengineering for a problem we don't have.
<slangasek> stgraber: I heard something to the effect that Canonical would be doing internal hosting of lxc images; is that the plan?
<stgraber> slangasek: nope
<pitti> infinity: ^ or at least I don't think it's sensible to think about this while 20% of our tests fail due to random infrastructure problems
<stgraber> LXD will be using the cloud images at some point in the near future, but nothing's changing for LXC
<slangasek> stgraber: ah, of course
<infinity> pitti: I like the theory that we'll make the infra five-nines reliable, so other problems become more obvious.
<stgraber> and LXD's own testsuite already doesn't rely on network access at all
<infinity> pitti: But, yeah, let's try to get there first.
<slangasek> ok I think we've discussed this to death
<slangasek> shall we release our captive audience?
<infinity> +1
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 18 15:45:28 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-18-15.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks!
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<barry> thanks!
<mhall119> sladen: are you around for this meeting?
<mhall119> #startmeeting Community Council Weekly Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 18 17:01:26 2015 UTC.  The chair is mhall119. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council Weekly Meeting | Current topic:
<mhall119> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<mhall119> sladen: you are the only one to have something on the agenda, so I hope you're around
<mhall119> this will not be the CC/KC meeting that we are trying to schedule, too many people from both teams were not going to be available, we will try and get that scheduled for next week at a convenient day and time for everybody
<mhall119> but if you wanted to talk about any of the other things you put on the agenda, we can do that now
<mhall119> I guess sladen isn't here, so we will postpone his agenda items for a later date
<mhall119> is there any other business that anybody would like to bring up?
<mhall119> I'm going to end it then, if anybody comes along in the next 50 minutes please ping me and I can start it up again
<mhall119> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 18 17:10:40 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-18-17.01.moin.txt
<sladen> mhall119: today is Thursday
<sladen> mhall119: hopefully you're researching topics to be able to talk about them on Friday 19 June 2015 17:00 UTC
<sladen> mhall119: then we can distribute that information to those are may be around at the time
<mhall119> sladen: we don't have anything scheduled for Friday
<mhall119> sladen: ah, I think I see the confusion, in my email I said "tomorrow" when it was 12:01am for me, but I had meant today
 * sladen nods; apologises if my attempts to distill clarity from ambiguity were unsuccessful on this occasion---and combination of "1700 UTC tomorrow" and "all day Friday" had lead me to parse it that way.  36 hours is pushing things anyway for people to prepare (traditionally CC agenda nominally closes 24 hours in advance)---12 hours would likely be unfeasible, so it's perhaps another lucky fluke in this case
<sladen> I don't expect everything to fixable in one day (as you have noted, several people unavailable), but our audience is the wider *buntu community and we can answer what we can in order to get the ball rolling
<sladen> mhall119: it's just under 24 hours, but is there anything from the proposed CC->KC agenda that could usefully be added?
<mhall119> sladen: we don't actually have a meeting scheduled for tomorrow
<mhall119> but we have 15 minutes left in the block today, if you want to discuss any of the non-KC items in your agenda
<sladen> mhall119: well it's an agenda of items that have come up in the last month
<ahoneybun> SELF?
<mhall119> sladen: right, and some of them will be discussed in the CC/KC meeting that we are trying to schedule, but if you have questions about the donations, licensing, or SELF conference I can answer them now
<sladen> mhall119: I'm not sure those items are _me_ asking per-se... they are items were we should endevour to provide answers in order to better support and inform out community
<sladen> s/were/where/; s/out/our/
<mhall119> sladen: ok, so I don't know of any outstanding questions about the donations program, I think we've been able to provide all of the answers that are possible
<sladen> mhall119: so it's the answers that matter more precisely than who might be asking them
<mhall119> there is still no update on the license, other than that Canonical and the SFLC have agreed on a set of changes and are coordinating joint announcments about it
<sladen> mhall119: I think that's a worthwhile update in itself
<mhall119> Mark has asked the TB if they would be willing to act as a stand-in for any CC member that needs to recuse themselves from an issue, so that the council can still operate effectively, and they seemed widely supportive of that
<sladen> mhall119: as it clearly differentiate between what is blocked/waiting/parked/cancelled
<mhall119> I don't think there's any formal process around when/how/who from the TB will fill in, but we can try that informally and see how we get on
<mhall119> sladen: I'm not sure what you wanted about SELF, can you clarify?
<mhall119> same with the agenda item about community donations from this month
<sladen> also, that would be a good update to give tomorrow (even if its just those words) as it provides an update on the situation (informal, and indicates that it does not yet appear to have been called upon)
<mhall119> sladen: ack
<sladen> mhall119: for the donations programme, I think we have 2012H2 six-months figures for 3 out of 8 categories; and a budgetry allocation indication for one of those 8 categories (Update->Engineering)
<sladen> mhall119: in https://lists.launchpad.net/kubuntu-council/msg00039.html there has been an assertion "doesn't seem to have been any interest on details of the other sliders still in use." but I don't recall having seen statements that might support that
<mhall119> sladen: that was based on a lack of people asking for anything other than what was provided
<sladen> mhall119: it would seem to make sense to document everything available from the programme that is known, and this would make it easier to hold up our hands and say that this is what is known
<mhall119> sladen: if there's nobody who is interested in the data, I'm not going to ask people to spend time collecting it
<mhall119> we never said we would release figures for all of the sliders, and nobody cares about anything but the 3 (now 1) that we've already done it for
<sladen> mhall119: well, *I* for example (as a member of the Ubuntu community who finds oneself extolling the virtues of Debian/Ubuntu and contributing/donating to them) would certainly be interested to know and read about them.  I've tried to becareful in the last month not to ask for things directly, as my aim here is to get people talking, and that would likely confuse the issues
<mhall119> sladen: in that case you should request that information from dpm on the community team, there's no need for the CC to be in the middle of that
<mhall119> sladen: what about the SELF agenda item?
<sladen> well I think people do care---when we, as a community encoourage people to support *buntu (with contributions, and money) it is perhaps easier to talk authoratively when full information is available, rather than 12%, or 38%
<mhall119> sladen: again though, the CC doesn't have that information, and we don't need to be the middle-man in that request, ask dpm directly
<sladen> mhall119: well I hope you can perhaps say something like the above---if the answer is "nothing is being done because it is not perceieved that there is a desire for more" then this is perfectly okay
<sladen> mhall119: it helps our communities understand what is happening vs. what is parked/cancelled, or not in progress
<mhall119> sladen: that is the current answer, yes, the CC is not inquiring further about donations figures, we are satisfied with what has already been published
<sladen> mhall119: then that I think would be a perfect complete answer to give tomorrow
<mhall119> sladen: the only open issue the CC is tracking now is the IP policy update
<sladen> mhall119: yup, it sounds like you've got an answer for that prepared above I can see
<mhall119> sladen: so our hour timeslot is over, was there something specific you wanted to say about SELF?
<sladen> shall we work through preparing/working through the rest of the items I've tried to group on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda#General_Agenda_Items_and_Proposals
<mhall119> sladen: the rest of them are things for the CC/KC meeting
<sladen> mhall119: ahhh, South-East Linux Fest
<sladen> mhall119: I believe this was something that happened in the last week, so likely to be something that the Week 25 communtiy team summary will cover, and so something yourself may wish to talk about following the sending out of the community team summary tomorrow
<sladen> mhall119: it was an item that came up on the Community Team list in the last month, and is an example of a use of the community fund
<sladen> mhall119: so it would be an opportunity to talk about how it worked out; so highlighting the work of the Community Team, and Community members in organising a prescence there
<sladen> mhall119: and how other community team members could do similiar for their own events
<mhall119_> sladen: sorry, power blip knocked me offline
<mhall119_> last I saw was 14:06 < mhall119> we will provide an update after that meeting
<sladen> sadly  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/06/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html  not updated
<pleia2> sladen: this seems like more like a proposal for a loco initiative, historically blog posts from community members post-event have been the standard for sharing event details like ahoneybun's from SELF last week: https://athoneycutt.wordpress.com/2015/06/13/self-day-1-ubuntu/
<pleia2> I think it's gret to publicize the community funding often, but not sure how this is a CC thing
<pleia2> the LoCo Council may be a good body to approach about coming up with some kind of campaign/toolkit for asking for funding and doing events
<pleia2> nhaines and jose are both very experienced with these things
<mhall119> the community team already publishes quarterly reports about the community donations
<mhall119> svij, nhaines, jose and I are also going to be working together on documentation for UbuCons
<pleia2> mhall119: nice
<jose> o/
<mhall119> but agian, not a CC thing
<jose> I'll be around for another 15 or 30 if you want to PM me re:SELF
<sladen> dialogues often flow when people can talk about their (non-controversial) passions with enthusiasm.  So the its about trying to find ways to allow conversation to start and getting the ball rolling
<pleia2> well, I don't want to step on the LoCo Council's toes here, so I really would rather defer to them on things like local events
<mhall119> I like pleia2's suggestion that you do that as a loco-driven thing
<sladen> well, perhaps there are other topics that peole would like to talk about and so start to built recongnition of each other's passions and qualities in order that the harder discussions and dialogues can flow
<mhall119> btw, if any team is waiting on this channel please tell us to shut up and go away :)
<pleia2> I believe last fall there was a thread or two on the ubuntu-community-team list about recognition, but there were too many ideas in those flurry of threads for the volunteers we had to work on them
<mhall119> sladen: I think we already have a lot of tools and channels for this (IRC, forums, planet, discourse, mailing lists, etc)
<pleia2> might be worthwhile for all of us to revisit those threads to see if there's anything we can pick up and work on now
<mhall119> it's just a habit and culture of doing it that is needed
<sladen> and we're slowly going off-topic in preparation for tomorrow
<mhall119> again, sladen, there is no meeting tomorrow
<sladen> which is excellent for conversation, but I would not want to detract or distract from tomorrow
<pleia2> too many people can't make it, short notice
<czajkowski> sladen: the CC meets on a Thursday,
<czajkowski> every 2nd thursday never a Friday.
<pleia2> czajkowski: this is the KC/CC meeting proposal
<mhall119> sladen: the meeting I referenced in my email was today's
<pleia2> czajkowski: not regular CC one
<czajkowski> pleia2: aye I know but it was meant to be during the CC meeting due to timezones and mails being sent, folks though it was Friday
<mhall119> pleia2: even that won't be this week
<sladen> mhall119: we've published that; it may only be me, but I will do my best to covey some of the answers in the IRC above now that we have them
<czajkowski> *thought
<pleia2> mhall119: right
<sladen> mhall119: and others are welcome to join in the fun
<mhall119> sladen: give us a chance to hold our meeting first, then we can go from there
<mhall119> sladen: I think we'll wrap this one up since we're already 20 minutes past our alloted time, the KC and CC will provide an update after our meeting with each other, and then we can move on to any other topics that haven't been completed at that time
<mhall119> #endmeeting
<sladen> mhall119: +1 and thank you for the answers in preparation for tomorrow
<mhall119> though I never actually re-started it, so that does nothing
<mhall119> sladen: always happy to provide answers, we're in #ubuntu-community-team all the time too
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-19
<sladen> evening all
<sladen> T-30 minutes
<ahoneybun> just so you know that calendar link is dead
<sladen> ahoneybun: the calendar link in the /topic?
<ahoneybun> yep
<ahoneybun> http://ubuntu-news.org/calendars/fridge/
<ahoneybun> this is the right one
<sladen> should be http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/  (plural)
* sladen changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<ahoneybun> yes
<ahoneybun> that works
<ahoneybun> no meeting today on there
* sladen changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave your swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
* sladen changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<sladen> ahoneybun: I confuse that I don't know how to update the calendar
<sladen> ahoneybun: I confess that I don't know how to update the calendar
<ahoneybun> oh ok
<ahoneybun> np
<sladen> ahoneybun: if you know then we could get it added
<sladen> abhopefully we can facilitate the meeting advertised in  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000612.html
<ahoneybun> seems it is using google calenday
<ahoneybun> *calendar
<sladen> and originally suggested in  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000609.html
<ahoneybun> sladen: are you saying this is the KC and CC meeting?
<ScottK> sladen: I don't think there's a meeting today.
<sladen> ahoneybun: well we don't know; but I'm happy to put energy into anything that helps move things along
<ScottK> You suggested it, but almost no one is available.
<sladen> ahoneybun: various people are unavailable; so it may just be me---in which case people are most welcome to join, but we of course can't force only one, only invite and make space available
<sladen> ScottK: it was suggested in this email  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000609.html
<ScottK> I know.
<ahoneybun> sladen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
<sladen> ScottK: I hope my contribution has been to positively reinforce the idea and to put things in place in case they are useful
<ScottK> sladen: I find that tone problematic.  One might infer from that since you've made space available, anyone not taking advantage of it is uninterested in a solution.
<ScottK> This isn't a useful exercise.
<ScottK> It would be much better to just schedule something far enough out that we can pick some time when most people can participate.
<nealmcb> Hi, sladen - thanks for trying to help out in a sticky situation
<nealmcb> Hi, ScottK!
<ScottK> Hello nealmcb
<sladen> ScottK: it's entirely optional. And anyone else is welcome;  could you suggest a better wording that is clear that it is not putting an onerous on anyone
<ScottK> I think "nevermind, I was confused about the day the CC was meeting on" would work.
<sladen> ScottK: well there's already more people here now and talking so far, than there were yesterday---so any confusion may have been a happy accident
<sladen> ScottK: we may have a better idea in an hour or so's time
<ScottK> Virtually no one from the Kubuntu Council is around.
<ScottK> It's the middle of my work day and today I certainly don't have time for an extended distraction from that.
<sladen> ScottK: that's perfectly okay, and I'm sure many will appreciate the extra time you've take to pop by and clearly say so
<sladen> taken
<nealmcb> minutes from yesterday's ubuntu community council weekly meeting at 17:00 yesterday: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/06/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<nealmcb> oops - not minutes - just the log...
<sladen> nealmcb: excellent.  One thing I was hoping to get done was to grab links for the most relevant answers so that they could be pasted into the Wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for better context/quick reference
<sladen> nealmcb: I haven't managed to do that yet, would it be something you would be able to cast an independent eye over and help with
<sladen> nealmcb: it might be possible to pair up some of mhall119's updates with some of the collection of points that have come up on the community-list in the last months and so might come up in conversation
<nealmcb> sladen: Today I'm working hard on our spark course, and celebrating my birthday :)  I might be able to carve out some time on Sunday if others think it would be helpful.
<sladen> nealmcb: okay, I'll try and do it now in case it comes up
<sladen> nealmcb: but perhaps there would be an opportuntity for anyone else who joins to collectively sing happy birthday
<Kilos> happy birthday nealmcb
 * Kilos greets everyone else
 * nealmcb smiles
<sladen> greetings kilos
<Riddell> hi
 * ovidiu-florin waves
<sladen> hello Riddell and ovidiu-florin
<sladen> and any other whom migth be around
<sladen> various people have mentioned that they are already at work/busy/unavailable, which is perfeclty reasonable as it was only 36 hours ago that the idea was first suggested
<sladen> there have been a lot of topics come up in the last month, many of which have large emotional associations for some people
<sladen> so perhaps it would be useful to initially look at things that are less contraverversial
<sladen> for a positive goal by the end it might be worth seeing if the idea suggested of a Doodle poll could be taken forward by somebody
<sladen> and to name who that person might be (if a Doodle hasn't already been set up)
<nealmcb> Note that the weekly ubuntu community council meeting was yesterday (Thursday) at 17:00.  IRC log here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/06/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<Riddell> polling for dates/times is just how a meeting is scheduled, if someone wants to schedule a meeting they should go ahead
<nealmcb> With some updates on some of sladen's agenda items
<Riddell> I don't have the energy and I don't have the desire while stuff like petty articles on fridge are being posted and defended and I doubt anyone else in Kubuntu does either
<sladen> there is also the chance to reflect objectively on some of the less hot potatoes
<Riddell> there has been a spectacular failure of communtiy management by the CC, it's really draining of any motivation to be part of the project
<sladen> Riddell: I can certainly see that particular item may be frustrting; I'm also aware that other individuals involved have items and wording which they too find frustrating
<sladen> Riddell: so it would be useful to see what can be offered equally, so that there are clear mutual steps for all involved
<sladen> the first of which may be to simply get used to each others' faces, mannerisms, and personas
<Riddell> why? the CC started this nonsense, they should clear it up, community management is the role they're supposed to have
<sladen> from some of the items joted down on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda#General_Agenda_Items_and_Proposals  I can see that frusration was also for instance expressed at a caption on an image
<sladen> I'm not sure that "them"/"they"/"us" and seeking to attribute blame  is likely to helpe people start talking
<sladen> within our community/communities we are all equally responsible for taking things forward
<sladen> and helping each other to talk and listen
<Riddell> no we're not, we have defined roles in ubuntu
<sgclark> Woah, wait, we are not allowed to have captions on our personal blogs?
<Riddell> I've never heard anyone frustrated at that blog post, I've no idea what they would be frustrated by
<sladen> sgclark: please don't reflect on any individual frustration; what matters is to recognise that frustrations are present in _all_ directions
<sladen> sgclark: so focusing on what can be proactively _offered_ to others, over making _demands_/_ultimatiums_
<nealmcb> Yes - lots of frustrations, and lots of great volunteer work by great people all around also.  I give thanks for the latter :)
<sgclark> I asked a simple question, please don't call me out like that.
<sladen> nealmcb: yes, positive reenforcement is good; I try to do this whenever possible, and I hope that others can do too
<Riddell> sgclark++
<sladen> sgclark: could you suggest how responses could be phrased more clearly, eg, would it be better for use all to use 'nickname:' prepending during this conversation, or to try and always reply without highlighting anyone else?
 * Riddell sees no relevance in that
<sladen> sgclark: I can see why higlighting might give the impression of personalisation
<ovidiu-florin> sladen: she did not talk about the highlighting
<sladen> Riddell: could you clarify what "that" is is; is it about highlighting, or frustrations, or image captions, or something else?
<Riddell> highlighting
<sgclark> well ok we are getting off track here.
<sgclark> next
<sladen> there as been some suggestion of a Doodle for finding dates (not everyone has been available today, nor at such short notice)
<sgclark> correct
<sladen> I'd be interested (as a member of the *buntu community) whether there has been started/done/is in progress
<Riddell> I've not heard from anyone on it
<sladen> and if not whether we could find somebody whowould take on the responsibilty for trying to make it happen
<Riddell> mark said to contact claire to organise a date but I've no desire to spend my time and energy organising anything
<sgclark> doodle poll would be best, none started I don't think.
<sladen> sgclark: would this be something you'd be willing to have a crack at doing?
<mhall119> sladen: I'm working on getting sabdfl's availability, as I think it's important for him to be there if at all possible, and will send out a proposed time or a doodle poll of multiple times
<sgclark> No, this is not my responsibility. looks lik mhall119 is already on it :)
<sladen> mhall119: that's wonderful to hear---not being @canonical at the moemnt I don't have the privilege of easily checking sabdfl's calendar!
<mhall119> sladen: I'm going through Claire as Mark suggested
<sladen> mhall119: is the Doodle something you would be happy to take on organisation
<sladen> mhall119: it sounds like you might be hinting at this having some some leg-work on it already
<mhall119> sladen: yes, if we have more than one day/time where mark is available
<mhall119> sladen: it has been started yes
<sladen> mhall119: groovy, is there any additional assistance that might be required---if not would you be able to email the community-team mailing list so that others are able to follow the progress and know that things are happen
<sladen> appening
<sladen> happening
<mhall119> sladen: email saying that a day and time is being worked on?
<sladen> mhall119: perhaps an email updating when a Doodle link has been sent out
<mhall119> sladen: I can do that if you think there is value in progress updates like that
<sladen> mhall119: but if that takes more than a couple of hours days, then yes, an email update saying that it is still in progress (and hasn't been dropped) would help to keep things visible for the wider *buntu community
<mhall119> ok
<sladen> mhall119: yes, proactive updates (even to say that something has/hasn't been done---which is perfectly okay) are often useful the updates answers people's questions before they have thought of them, and so help to reduce the potential for tension
<mhall119> that's fine, as long as I'm not spamming the ML with useless stuff
<sladen> mhall119: it might also be useful doing this eg. on a weekly based for the FSF/SFLC/copyright/trademark issue---so that it's clear and transparent that a delay is not attributable to the Community Council itself, if that is the case
<sladen> voids/gaps tend to get filled in, and presumptions used to fill the voids may not always prove accurate of correct
<mhall119> sladen: Canonical and the SFLC should both be publishing an announcement when the IP Policy changes land, until that happens there's nothing really to post other than the fact that it hasn't happened yet
<Riddell> the CC should make a statement saying there is no need for derivatives to recompile binaries beyond removing trademarks which is entirely within their power, but they don't want to do that for some reason and so potential for confusion and the resuling harm it does to ubuntu continues
<ogra_> Riddell, how is the CC qualified to make such statements ?
<Riddell> ogra_: because it's their role to ensure the community management of ubuntu
<sladen> mhall119: yes, thats often the key: it helps to clearly separate out what is parked vs. delayed vs. cancelled---and if it's clear after a while that there is a hold-up/log-jam elsewhere, other people following have a better idea and indication where and whom to start asking instead
<sgclark> Pretty sure that is something that needs to be published by authoritive figures.
<Riddell> this is something that harms ubuntu so they should manage it
<ogra_> sure ... community management means not "interpreting licensing" ... thats lawyer territory ...
<Riddell> no it's not
<sgclark> yes it is
<Riddell> I'm trusted by ubuntu to review licences every day for ubuntu
<ogra_> yes, they shoudl manage the communication to lawyers
<mhall119> the CC will not make any statements about the IP Policy other than to announce the changes when they are published
<ogra_> but they are not lawyers and in no way qualified to make any such statements
<sladen> ogra_: for clarity 'they' == individuals on the Ubnutu Community Council?
<mhall119> The changes to the policy and their associated interpretations are being handled by lawyers from Canonical and the SFLC
<ogra_> sladen, and the council itself
<ogra_> sladen, so "they" as a whole ...
<Riddell> this is a very basic part of free software, it's really not at all complex, it's what binds us all together
<Riddell> if they can't even comment on it then they're not capable of understanding the community
<sladen> ogra_: thank you---been gently trying to encourage avoiding of "they"/"them"/"us" as it often introduces tension, and brings with it lack of clarity about precise whom is being referred to
<sgclark> We are once again off topic.
<ogra_> in my vision nobody on the council or the council as an entity is able to make such statements ... but i fuully agree that they are responsible for carrying community requests to lawyers forward (in either direction, i dont mean canonical lawyers here, they could pick whomever)
<mhall119> ogra_: which has been done, now are are simply waiting for those lawyers to come to their conclusions and state them
<Riddell> ogra_: as I say I review licences for ubuntu every day, it's really not hard, it's the basics of what allows open source to function
<ogra_> yes, sorry, didnt mean to drag you guys offtipoc
<mhall119> unless anything changes, there is nothing more for the CC to do on this topic but wait
<sgclark> Right, so carry on with the rest of the meeting please.
<ogra_> Riddell, thins is about a statement on an official project wide page ... not about any packaging licenses
<Riddell> claiming the work we do on ubuntu can't be freely shared is directly in contradition to the ubuntu promise that founded this project, the CC is perfectly able to stand by that promise and alay any fears about it not being true
<Riddell> ogra_: it's a statement about packaging licences
<ogra_> (and about its phrasing or the changing of this phrasing)
<sgclark> We are wasting our time here.
<sladen> perhaps we can collectively recognise that there is a disagreement on this particular point
<sladen> that we have heard the update from mhall119 that the issue is out-standing
 * ogra_ will just shut up, since i dragged you away from the topic ... sorry again :) 
<mhall119> the SFLC and Canonical have agreed to changes (not yet published) that both sides agree will guarantee that the IP Policy is compliant with all the open source licenses we use
<sladen> and we chave heard the possibility of more regular updates about reporting issues that out-standing because they are blocked waiting on the actions of others or other groups outside of direct influence
<sladen> ogra_: I have found your input and thoughts interesting to read---so chances are other people have too
<sladen> to echo sgclark's suggestion, lets take another item that's easier to talk about and surrounded by less emotion
<sladen> about 15 minutes ago, dpm posted an update on the Canonical Community Team's work in the last week
<sladen> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000624.html
<sladen> I've had the privilege of working with various levels of insight into Canonical, and so I know there can be issues about creating visibility of what is happening
<sladen> as frequently that is often only shared internall, or within a team, or those at eighbouring desks
<sladen> so this is an interesting insight into what is happening, and would like to see them continue to unfold
<sladen> dpm also made a suggestion the day before in   https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000619.html
<sladen> about moving to a 3-week cycle
<sladen> for Community things, and I wonder whether this would have a perceived positive or negative impact on those recent developments to encourage updates
<sladen> eg. how would it fit in with organising contributions to events like the South East Linux Festival(/)
<sladen> ...I would also be interesting in hearing more about that
<sladen> it's a while since I would regularly organsing Ubuntu and outreach events
<sladen> so I don't have quite so much insight at the moment about how Ubuntu is perceived
<sladen> is there anyone who would like to share any recent interactions about how they've explains Ubuntu, how it is perceived and so forth?
<sladen> ...for example I know I've found it difficulty to authoritively explain recent developments to other people even less informed about Ubuntu, through not having information myself
<sgclark> We (my loco) teamed with KDE and represented *ubuntu @ LFNW and it was a great response.
<sgclark> We burned many CDs of all flavors including Unity
<sgclark> This was before reecent events though
<sladen> LFNW seeems to be Linux Fest North West
<sgclark> that is correct
<sladen> sgclark: would you be able to share a little more about where its held, and what you managed to organise, many people , and what setup you used
<sgclark> Disorganized and choas, but we had a blast anyway
<sladen> sgclark: did you use any of the marketing materials---table clothes etc (if so did the person arranging these have any difficulties getting them)
<sladen> these thigns often feel that way, but the adrenaline keeps people going!
<sgclark> wxl WAS KIND ENOUGH TO TAKE CARE OF THAT :) NO ISSUES THAT i AM AWARE, WE DID NOT HAVE ANY FANCY DECORATIONS THOUGH.
<sgclark> oops
<sgclark> caplock..
<wxl> sgclark: we did have those nice whiteboard drawings tho ;)
<sgclark> we did get some great swag, it went super fast.
<sgclark> wxl: true!
<mhall119> sgclark: at SELF I asked ahoneybun if there was artwork for Kubuntu DVDs and sleeve and he didn't know of any so he's taken it up to create some, do you have any for the ones you burned?
<sgclark> mhall119: no :( it was a pity, we had to marker all our burns, hense the unorganized and chaos statement, that is something we need to work on.
<ahoneybun> I just need the size that the Canoncial uses
<ahoneybun> for the DVD sleeves
<mhall119> ahoneybun: do you have the email address for anyone in the design team?
<mhall119> they should be able to give you sizes
<sladen> wxl: you have pictures;  and sgclark/wxl: about the 'swag', what do you think worked well/mostly effectively/least effectively?
<ahoneybun> um I think someone gave me and pleia2 some unicorn and vervet svgs
<ahoneybun> not sure if they are in the design team
<wxl> sladen: yeah we tweeted some pictures. i've been meaning to create a blog about it but i'm hella behind on things. :(
<wxl> well, tweets and g+
<sgclark> sladen: tshirts were gone in minutes lol
<mhall119> ahoneybun: I'll email john lea and CC you in on it
<wxl> sladen: regarding swag, we got the usual stuff from ubuntu. it all sort of went quickly but the lanyards were the slowest ;)
<ahoneybun> mhall119: thank you michael
<sgclark> yeah I did the G+ and twitter thing
<sgclark> also behind in blog posts here
<wxl> sladen: i'd say we also had really good response from offering DVDs of your choice, burning on the spot
<sgclark> yeah
<sgclark> our booth was always pretty swamped
<mhall119> was there a good turnout at LFNW? any attendee numbers available?
<ahoneybun> mhall119: how could I get a cloth like the Ubuntu one but with Kubuntu and blue?
<mhall119> ahoneybun: you'd probably need to get one made
<mhall119> that's what loco teams have done too
<ahoneybun> mhall119: any place you know of?
<sladen> ahoneybun: I think there night be some; there was one at FOSDEM in Brussels this year---perhaps Riddell knows how it got there/what its origin was
<sgclark> mhall119: yes great turn out 2000 I think ?
<mhall119> no, but itnet7 might know, I think he had one for the florida loco
<mhall119> sgclark: oh wow, so it's really big
<ahoneybun> oh ok
<sgclark> it is no oscon, but for our corner of the US it is great :)
<sladen> trouble is that often soembody has to carry/transport make sure these things arrive
<mhall119> sgclark: bigger than SELF was over here from the sound of it
<Riddell> it was a KDE one we had at FOSDEM, but there is a community fund anyone can apply to if they want to make their own one
<sgclark> cool :)
<Riddell> logistics is often a problem indeed
<ahoneybun> Riddell: mhall119 I'll check out getting one for Akademy if possible
<mhall119> ahoneybun: will there be booths at akademy?
<ahoneybun> no clue XD
<ahoneybun> well good to have either way
<sgclark> no it is not that kind of cnonference
<sgclark> we work >.<
<sgclark> well I guess there are a few tables, but I did not have time to spend much time at them lol
<sladen> I'm still enjoying listening to this, but before everyone drifts away, could I say:
<sladen> Thank you to Kilos ovidiu-florin nealmcb Riddell sgclark mhall119 ogra_ wxl ahoneybun for all your contributions, time and sharing during the last hour; it has been really enjoyable and reassuring to read what has been happening---and plus updates with getting the Doodle organised and updates about keeping visibility up on out-standing topics.
<sladen> More on the ubuntu-community-team mailing list---it may be a long road, hopefully this gentley provides the opportunity for evenyone individually to get the ball rolling!
<sladen> and perhaps we can sing Happy Birthday to ncbetoo!
<wxl> haaaaaaappy birthday to yoooooooooou
<sladen> and perhaps we can sing Happy Birthday to nealmcb!
<Kilos> sladen  happy to be here
<ogra_> hah
<wxl> haaaaaaappy birthday to yoooooooooou
<sladen> happy birthday tooo  youuuuu
<wxl> happy biiiiiiirthday ncbetoo and nealmcb
<ogra_> happy bday nealmcb
 * sladen grins
<Kilos> hip hip
<Kilos> i would like to see all the differences sorted out amicably
<sgclark> happy birthday !
<Kilos> i love kubuntu and use unity too
<sladen> nealmcb: have a wonderful day, and I hope the weather is within your preference parameters
<sgclark> yes, I am ready for this to be done, so I can work in peace and harmony
<sladen> and that the sky near you is either Blue or Orange, or a combination of all colours inbetween
<wxl> i love kubuntu and lubuntu and snappy! and unityâ on the phone. ;)
<Kilos> imo we are a family, and families squabble now and again but still remain family
<sgclark> wxl: ever sort out your ubuntu phone?
<wxl> sgclark: no. that's one of the things my blog post was waiting on.
<sgclark> :(
<wxl> yeah, oh well. time to work on a port ;)
<sgclark> that is so sad, stealing from a booth..
<ahoneybun> wxl: missing your phone?
<Kilos> that sucks
<wxl> ahoneybun: yeah, tl;dr my ubuntu phone that canonical sent for development, testing, showing off, etc., got stolen from lfnw
<ahoneybun> oh no
<ahoneybun> wxl: BQ one?
<wxl> ahoneybun: oh no, just an old nexus, but still.
<ahoneybun> wxl: I have the N4 as well
<ahoneybun> I'm sorry to hear that
<wxl> i'm not going to cry about it. it is what it is.
<wxl> canonical was very nice about the whole thing, but they couldn't promise me another phone. i'm disappointed, but totally 100% understand. i'm thankful for the time i did have with it. so much so, that the porting i mentioned i'm actually serious about.
<wxl> ok folks, i gotta jet
<wxl> hugs to all :)
 * sgclark hugs wxl
<Kilos> cheers wxl
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-20
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 20 16:31:48 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<jjohansen> o/
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Stefan Bader (smb) provided debdiffs for precise-xenial for xen
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for wily-xenial for mariadb-10.0 (LP: #1589302)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1589302 in mariadb-10.0 (Ubuntu Yakkety) "USN-2953-1: MySQL vulnerabilities partially applies to MariaDB too" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1589302
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week, and I'm off wed-fri
<mdeslaur> I'm currently about to publish a bunch of updates
<mdeslaur> and I have a few more to test and publish tomorrow
<mdeslaur> I want to update the uefi secure boot testing instructions if I have time
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week
<sbeattie> I need to finish up a couple of todos from the sprint last
<sbeattie> I'll pick up an update or to this week
<sbeattie> I'm also looking for pie-related build failures in the background.
<sbeattie> I may also take friday off.
<sbeattie> that's probably it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week and I'll be covering CVE triage today and tomorrow
<tyhicks> I have quite a few sprint followups/todos
<tyhicks> I have lingering email catchup to do from the last two weeks (vacation and then sprinting kept me from some things)
<tyhicks> I need to remind myself where I was at with the yakkety apparmor upload, complete that, and then move on to the xenial SRU
<tyhicks> I have some snap-confine PR reviews to do (seccomp arg filtering and some others that landed without security team review)
<tyhicks> then I'd like to move on to seccomp complain mode for snappy's devmode
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I'm working on making sure apparmor stacking is ready to be opened up to user name spaces
<jjohansen> I have a few TODOs to finish up from last weeks sprint, and I have a neglected upstream kernel pull-request to finish getting together and push out
<jjohansen> I also have the 4.7 apparmor rebase to finish with and push to the kt
<jjohansen> and I will be taking thurs and friday off
<jjohansen> oh and I suppose if I can squeeze it in I will push up the current set of apparmor 3.5 fixes to the kt for xenial
<jjohansen> thats it for /me tyhicks back to you
<tyhicks> sounds like you'll have a more than full week for only 3 days
<tyhicks> there's probably no need to work on the 3.5 fix pull request this week
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: you're up
<jjohansen> heh, yeah, like I said if I can squeeze it in :)
<chrisccoulson> I've got one follow-up todo from last week (creating instructions for doing flash updates).
<chrisccoulson> I don't have any other updates planned this week
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll hopefully be able to test the browser on arm64. So I'll be spending time this week fixing any issues that result from that
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<tyhicks> sounds like a nice week
<tyhicks> ratliff: your turn
<ratliff> I am working on todos from the sprint and misc. management tasks
<ratliff> I want to finish the transition tasks from jdstrand and start playing with the uct tools
<ratliff> I will be off on Friday (travelling)
<ratliff> back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pngcrush.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/inn.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/minissdpd.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gitlab.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tardiff.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sbeattie> tyhicks: I have one more item on my plate this week, I may need to spend some time looking at why aslr tests are failing on ppc64el and s390: https://launchpad.net/bugs/1594347
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1594347 in QA Regression Testing "kernel-security aslr tests failing on ppc64el and zseries" [Undecided,New]
<chrisccoulson> oh, the "no updates planned" from me isn't true - I've got an oxide update to do
<tyhicks> sbeattie: huh... let me know if you aren't able to get to it before taking friday (if you take off friday)
<tyhicks> s/before taking friday/before friday/
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: ack
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 20 16:51:16 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-20-16.31.moin.txt
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<ratliff> thanks, tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<BenC> o/
<jbicha> \o
<micahg> o/, but brb
<Kilos> untu loco going dtrong the trsditional way
<rbasak> o/
<Kilos> hoping to get the loco going
<Kilos> sorry nfor typos
<Kilos> kb gone crazy
<Kilos> oops sorry
<bdmurray> o/
<Kilos> i hit some wrong key somewhere. sorry guys
<bdmurray> Kilos: we are about to start a meeting
<micahg> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 20 19:05:22 2016 UTC.  The chair is micahg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<micahg> Welcome to the DMB meeting
<micahg> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<micahg> #subtopic cyphremox Update Mate packages per Iain Laney's suggestions
<micahg> hrm, wiki typo
<micahg> any update
<micahg> cyphermox: ^^
<cyphermox> hello
<bdmurray> he was at a sprint last week so might be taking a swap day
<bdmurray> or not
<cyphermox> nah but it's not done iether
<micahg> ok
<micahg> carried
<micahg> #subtopic everyone to review rbasak's question on devel-permissions and give feedback
<micahg> whoops, I forgot to do that
<rbasak> Unless anyone objects, I'll go ahead and ask the TB to add the packageset this week.
<micahg> we have TB members on the team, we can JFDI
<BenC> Iâm all for that
<bdmurray> rbasak: what was the decision on fonts-*? gunnar seemed to indicate he didn't care about that as much
<rbasak> Based on the ML thread, I thought we were going to create a personal packageset for Gunnar.
<rbasak> Then we can adjust it as/if/when glob expansions change.
<micahg> I forget, is there any team in Debian for which this packageset could be mirrored against?
<bdmurray> "If wildcards cannot be used that way, I'd suggest that you skip the fonts-* part for now."
<micahg> well, if we're doing a packageset, we can add new fonts-* to the packageset when requested
<micahg> and the packageset script could actually be updated to handle that
<rbasak> Let's stop bikeshedding this.
<micahg> I'd still prefer to make the packageset more general if there's a way to do that that makes sense, otherwise, i'm fine with the personal packageset in this scenario
<rbasak> micahg: fine, but please can you decide your "if" now, so that we can proceed?
<micahg> would anyone else also want a languages packageset or is it just me?
<micahg> sorry, was looking up the packages requested again
<bdmurray> I don't think the extra work is justified at this point in time.
<bdmurray> Additionally, I believe I looked for overlap in the packages requested and other package sets and found little to none.
<micahg> ok, rbasak can I assign to you then to find a TB person (I think we have one or two on the team) to create the packageset and then add the packages to the new packageset with a description and possibly updating the packageset script for the globs?
<rbasak> bdmurray: extra work for which option?
<micahg> yeah, it's just making a team in LP and marking it as the uploader for the packageset, not a lot of "extra" work
<bdmurray> rbasak: for the languages packageset micachg was asking about.
<rbasak> OK
<rbasak> micahg: ack to taking that assignment
<micahg> #action rbasak to find a TB DMB member to create packageset for gunnarhj's packages
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to find a TB DMB member to create packageset for gunnarhj's packages
<micahg> #action rbasak to add gunnarhj's packages to the new packageset (carried)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add gunnarhj's packages to the new packageset (carried)
<micahg> #action rbasak to update packageset script to handle globs for new packageset if needed
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to update packageset script to handle globs for new packageset if needed
<rbasak> Thanks
<micahg> #subtopic everyone to review rbasak's question on devel-permissions and give feedback
<micahg> oops
<micahg> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC
<micahg> #subtopic sil2100 to check the state of Ubuntu uTouch Uploaders and any other teams that might be non-existent
<micahg> carried
<micahg> moving on
<micahg> #topic MOTU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: MOTU Applications
<micahg> #subtopic Reinstating Jeremy Bicha into MOTU after an absence
<micahg> I guess my main question is what was the motivation for leaving before
<micahg> jbicha: ^^
<jbicha> I knew I wasn't going to be using my permissions for a while so I thought it would be better if I left the teams
<bdmurray> Did he leave or just not renew when he got the email from Launchpad?
<jbicha> I left the teams
<BenC> jbicha: I go through periods of not using my core dev permissions. Itâs best to retain permissions that you are granted, and only drop them if you plan on never returning.
<BenC> Thatâs my opinion, but I think itâs fairly well accepted by others. Just a note for the future :)
<jbicha> I'll keep that in mind
<micahg> well, that's debatable, I think that's what happens in practice, but I don't know if that's best
<jbicha> is it better for the project though if someone actively marks their absence
<BenC> As someone trying to get back into Debian, I feel the path of least difficulty for getting you back on track is best.
<micahg> jbicha: are your reasons why you weren't uploading something you can share?
<jbicha> micahg: I'd rather not discuss my need to leave publicly if that's ok
<jbicha> it was for personal reasons
<micahg> ok
<BenC> I would say that self removal shows some form of self discipline and respect for the project, so thereâs that.
<rbasak> jbicha: what sort of uploads do you expect to do with restored permissions? Have you done any sponsored ones already
<rbasak> ?
<jbicha> my recent activity has been helping with sru's for xenial: gnome-documents, gnome-taquin (stuck in queue) and abiword
<jbicha> I am looking to rejoin ~motu and ~ubuntu-gnome-dev
<jbicha> I've done quite a bit with the GNOME3 PPA since we're not ready for GTK 3.20 in Yakkety yet
<rbasak> Are you in touch with GNOME flavor uploaders?
<jbicha> yes, I have rejoined the Ubuntu GNOME team and communicate with ricotz and darkxst
<rbasak> Are they aware of this request?
<jbicha> darkxst encouraged me to re-apply
<rbasak> OK, thanks. I just wanted to make sure we don't surprise anyone (since normally we'd expect endoresements from people on the same teams so we'd know that they are aware)
<jbicha> he's been having computer trouble so he's been mostly off IRC recently
<jbicha> I can ask him to send y'all an email
<jbicha> it's also early AM in Australia (his time)
<bdmurray> jbicha: so 2 of the 3 SRus have been accepted?
<rbasak> IMHO (I can't speak for the others) I'm happy to trust your word.
<rbasak> The CoC talks of departing gracefully. In your opinion, did you do this?
<jbicha> bdmurray: yes, the other was sponsored uploaded but not accepted in the X queue yet
<rbasak> Sorry, I'd like to have asked this in the ML, but these questions didn't occur to me until now.
<rbasak> It's an unusual situation and I'm new on the DMB>
<rbasak> .
<jbicha> rbasak: yes I announced my departure in advance on https://jeremybicha.wordpress.com/2013/05/27/moving-on/
<rbasak> Thanks
<jbicha> and I tried to turn over things as much as possible to darkxst (I was tech lead for Ubuntu GNOME at the time)
<rbasak> No more questions from me I think.
<micahg> #vote reinstate jbicha and ubuntu-gnome-dev
<meetingology> Please vote on: reinstate jbicha and ubuntu-gnome-dev
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> micahg: and motu I think?
<micahg> #voters cyphermox bdmurray micahg BenC
<meetingology> Current voters: BenC bdmurray cyphermox micahg
<BenC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from BenC
<micahg> #voters cyphermox bdmurray micahg BenC rbasak
<meetingology> Current voters: BenC bdmurray cyphermox micahg rbasak
<micahg> and MOTU
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<micahg> #vote reinstate jbicha to MOTU and ubuntu-gnome-dev
<meetingology> Voting still open on: reinstate jbicha and ubuntu-gnome-dev
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<BenC> +1 again?
<meetingology> +1 again? received from BenC
<micahg> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: reinstate jbicha and ubuntu-gnome-dev
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<micahg> jbicha: thanks, we'll get this set up for you again
<BenC> jbicha: Welcome back
<jbicha> thank you!
<micahg> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<jbicha> the sponsoring queue was a bit slow lately so now I can be looking at it from the other side (i.e. helping)
<micahg> #info next chair rbasak
<micahg> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 20 19:53:52 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-20-19.05.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-21
<rbasak> o/
<nacc> o/
<rharper> o/
<rharper> wait a min and then I'll get started
<jgrimm> o/
<smoser> o/
<rharper> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 21 16:02:19 2016 UTC.  The chair is rharper. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rharper> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<coreycb> o/
<rharper> looking at the logs, I see no previous ACTION points to review, so we'll move on
<rharper> #topic Yakkety Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Yakkety Development
<rharper> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule
<rharper> we've got an Alpha at the end of the month
<jgrimm> steady progress being made against merges
<jgrimm> reasonably happy there
<cpaelzer> o/
<rharper> jgrimm: do we have a number or anything compact ?
<jgrimm> just mom
<rharper> right
<jgrimm> https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<rharper> #link https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<rharper> #subtopic Release Bugs
<rharper> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-y-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rharper> not much there
<jgrimm> indeed, also note.. openstack split into their own section now
<rharper> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<rharper> just missed caribou it seems
<rharper> I know smoser is cleaning up a number of cloud-init issues so we can get another upload into yakkety
<smoser> i hope to getan sru upload into trusty today of yakkety level of cloud-init
<rharper> shortly after that, we'll have a curtin update with fixes for known maas issues
<jgrimm> SRU for newer docker in the works too
<rharper> jgrimm: 1.12 ?
<smoser> we need maas team to verification-done on https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/cloud-init/trunk.net-improve-lo-dns/+merge/298035
<jgrimm> 1.11.2
<smoser> bah
<smoser> on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/curtin/+bug/1577872
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1577872 in curtin (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] curtin in yakkety to supported releases" [Medium,Fix committed]
<rharper> jgrimm: ack
<smoser> we should push on that.
<rharper> smoser: I have meeting tomorrow scheduled with maas team
<rharper> so ping me with any other bugs we need them to verify and I'll add it to my list for them to poke at
<rharper> caribou: welcome back, we're currently discussing Server & Cloud bugs if you have any
<Karibou> rharper: well the Kubuntu version of me will have to anwser
<rharper> hehe
<jgrimm> heh
<rharper> that'll work
<smoser> caribou, do you go by Karibou when you run Kubuntu ?
<caribou> ah ok, I'm back here too
<caribou> Quassel is playing games with me
<caribou> smoser: no just alternate nick
<smoser> nice.
<caribou> ok, been sprinting last week and used the opportunity to work on a few multipath-tools bugs
<caribou> rharper: I'm planning to SRU the Xenial fix that you sent to debian
<caribou> rharper: I'm also about to SRU a double-free segfault to Trusty
<caribou> rharper: other than that, I'm about to push release 1.6.0 of makedumpfile/kdump-tools
<caribou> that's about it
<rharper> caribou: multipath-tools, yes ... and did you look at any additional items that xnox had identified  ?
<caribou> rharper: spoke to him about it last week, yes
<rharper> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/multipath-tools/+bug/1583563
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1583563 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "System will not start with multipathd enabled" [High,Confirmed]
<caribou> rharper: I'll check with him before SRUeing to Xenial
<rharper> caribou: ok, great
<caribou> rharper: well, looks like xnox updated it friday
<rharper> yeah
<caribou> rharper: maybe that should also be SRUed to Xenial
<rharper> I'd think so
<caribou> rharper: ok will get that one too
<rharper> nice
<rharper> thanks
<rharper> anything else
<caribou> nope, I'm good
<rharper> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<cpaelzer> note - IBM tested the fix of friday even if bugproxy still takes its time
<cpaelzer> that was for multipath
<rharper> cpaelzer: ack
<cpaelzer> and FYI smb extends the sprint, so he is out this week
<rharper> ok, so might not get and kernel team input
<rharper> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<rharper> anything to keep an eye on here?
<rharper> moving on
<rharper> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rharper> #topic Open Discussion
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<rharper> any thing to discuss ?
<jgrimm> rharper, i was going to add a AIO backend enablement item to the blueprint so we don't lose
<jgrimm> but we should try to enable that soon, i think?
<jgrimm> for tgt
<rharper> jgrimm: yeah, I can rebuild, put it in PPA and see about getting a sponser to upload it to yakkety
<jgrimm> cool
<rharper> #action rharper to enable AIO backend in tgt in yakkety
<meetingology> ACTION: rharper to enable AIO backend in tgt in yakkety
<rharper> now I'll get bothered weekly =)
<rharper> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
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<jgrimm> rharper, ha!  thanks sir!
<caribou> rharper: don't hesitate to ping me if you need a sponsor
<rharper> next week's meeting same time and place, chair will be beisner
<jgrimm> rharper,  don't forget about rbasak
<rharper> caribou: thanks!
<rharper> jgrimm: yep, rbasak updated the template
<rharper> #topic Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)
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<rbasak> Thanks :)
<rbasak> Progress reports first please.
<rbasak> cpaelzer: bug 1507681, bug 1495988, bug 1581839, bug 1524526, bug 1590688
<cpaelzer> 1581839 Sponsored by Brian Murrayi (thanks), waiting for 3rd party verify in proposed
<ubottu> bug 1507681 in psmisc (Ubuntu Precise) "killall with 65 arguments kills more than expected" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507681
<ubottu> bug 1495988 in apache2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "ProxyErrorOverride leads to slow 404 responses" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495988
<cpaelzer> 1507681 Waiting in proposed for the reporter to verify
<cpaelzer> 1495988 Waiting for Review/Sponsoring, but there is 2.4.7-1ubuntu4.10 SRU in flight (who clears that?)
<ubottu> bug 1581839 in clamav (Ubuntu Xenial) "package clamdscan 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu4 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man1/clamdscan.1.gz', which is also in package clamav-daemon 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu0.14.04.1" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1581839
<ubottu> bug 1524526 in dovecot (Ubuntu Xenial) "Crashes with undefined symbol" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524526
<cpaelzer> 1524526 Merge ready as of a few mnutes ago (importer process found various issues) + includes the dropping of the failing plugin
<ubottu> bug 1590688 in clamav (Ubuntu) "clamav-daemon doesn't start after installation" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1590688
<cpaelzer> That goes along with a no change rebuild of dovecot-antispam as discussed (also attached to the bug, and mentioned int the MP)
<cpaelzer> 1590688 No chance to work on yet
<rbasak> jgrimm: bug 1397250
<ubottu> bug 1397250 in libnss-ldap (Ubuntu) "SIGPIPE not caught in do_atfork_child()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397250
<rbasak> rharper: bug 1491406, bug 1472639
<ubottu> bug 1491406 in augeas (Ubuntu Trusty) "augeas-lenses-1.2.0 - NagiosCfg lens broken for /etc/nagios.cfg due to spaces" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491406
<ubottu> bug 1472639 in openldap (Ubuntu) "apparmor profile denied for kerberos: /run/.heim_org.h5l.kcm-socket" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472639
<rbasak> I had bug 1571174 and that is now done.
<ubottu> bug 1571174 in squid3 (Ubuntu Xenial) "package squid3 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving triggers unprocessed" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1571174
<rbasak> magicalChicken isn't here so I'll ask him in #ubuntu-server.
<rharper> rbasak: 1491406 (marked verification-done)
<rharper> rbasak: 1472639: did not touch yet
<jgrimm> rbasak,: response from upstream is that they disabled their bugzilla, so testcase therein is lost.   so puts me back a bit to trying to recreate bug on my own.
<jgrimm> s/disabled/decomissioned
<rbasak> cpaelzer: 988 I just commented in the other bug.
<cpaelzer> thanks
<rbasak> cpaelzer: in the general case I would like you to chase as needed please, in order to drive your own bug. With no response, we can fail the SRU and go to the next one if a reasonable amount of time has passed and nobody seems interested.
<cpaelzer> that is why I asked - ok, will keep an eye
<cpaelzer> do you have the others bug # at hand ?
<rbasak> bug 1286882 - sorry I didn't link to it from the other bug.
<ubottu> bug 1286882 in mpm-itk (Ubuntu Trusty) "libapache2-mpm-itk postinst failed" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1286882
 * rbasak is still catching up
<rbasak> cpaelzer: I think I'm done with yours - thanks.
<cpaelzer> great
<rbasak> rharper: 406 looks landed? Thank you for driving that.
<caribou> rbasak: regarding bug 1286882, I'll check that out first thing tomorrow morning
<rharper> rbasak: cool!  Sure.
<ubottu> bug 1286882 in mpm-itk (Ubuntu Trusty) "libapache2-mpm-itk postinst failed" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1286882
<rbasak> caribou: thanks!
<rbasak> magicalChicken: hello! Thank you for joining the meeting if you're here.
<rbasak> magicalChicken: please can you report status on: bug 869017, bug 1394403, bug 1511222, bug 1519120
<magicalChicken> rbasak: hi
<ubottu> bug 869017 in kbd (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu server enables screenblanking, concealing crashdumps (DPMS is not used)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/869017
<ubottu> bug 1394403 in apache2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "RewriteRule of "^$" is broken" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1394403
<ubottu> bug 1511222 in apache2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "Incorrect trusted proxy match test in mod_remoteip" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511222
<ubottu> bug 1519120 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Xenial: VLAN interfaces don't work until after a reboot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1519120
<magicalChicken> for 1511222, i have submitted a debdiff and verified it fixes the bug for me
<rbasak> I think I remember you saying that you weren't sure where to go with 017 next, sorry.
<magicalChicken> yeah, the kbd bug looks like it may just need to be a policy issue
<magicalChicken> but 1394403 i still have not been able to reproduce with the first submitted patch in place
<magicalChicken> i do think that it was fixed with that patch
<rbasak> magicalChicken: for 222, does that need sponsoring now? Or do you want the reporter to test success first?
<magicalChicken> i submitted a link to a build in my ppa for 222, so the reporter could verify
<magicalChicken> it might be good to make sure that the package works for them first
<rbasak> magicalChicken: OK, that's fine. Please can you make sure that it is clear in the bug that progress is blocked on the reporter?
<magicalChicken> sure, I'll post a comment real quick
<rbasak> I'll take the kbd bug.
<magicalChicken> and for 120 it was a missing dep, so i have a debdiff that adds vlan to recommends
<magicalChicken> awesome, thanks. yeah, i just couldn't figure out how to move forward there
<rbasak> magicalChicken: where is the debdiff for 120 please?
<magicalChicken> http://paste.ubuntu.com/17650089/
<magicalChicken> I'm adding it to the bug rn
<rbasak> Great, thanks
<rbasak> magicalChicken: also subscribe ~ubuntu-sponsors please, if it's ready for sponsoring.
<magicalChicken> sure, yeah
<rbasak> That's everyone I think. nacc didn't have any bugs assigned this past week. Did I miss anything?
<nacc> rbasak: mostly caught up with php (now just syncing the rest of them), will try to look at bacula today
<rbasak> nacc: that's great, thanks!
<rbasak> So I had lined up to assign: bug 1585771, bug 1553563, bug 1570923
<ubottu> bug 1585771 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Xenial) "Automatic security upgrades are always enabled" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1585771
<ubottu> bug 1553563 in bacula (Ubuntu) "bconsole to Bacula Director fails with authorization problem message" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1553563
<ubottu> bug 1570923 in bacula (Ubuntu Xenial) "bacula-dir won't start with "undefined symbol: mysql_init"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570923
<rbasak> nacc: are you able to take 563 and 923 now please?
<rbasak> And who wants 771?
<rbasak> Who has capacity?
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, were you looking for another bug?
<cpaelzer> not really
<cpaelzer> since I wasn't able to touch the one I got last week
<nacc> rbasak: yeah
<jgrimm> heh.  fair enough.
<rbasak> nacc: thank you!
<rharper> rbasak: I'll take 771
<rbasak> rharper: thanks!
<jgrimm> rharper, rbasak: that one just needs looking after right?
<rbasak> Right.
<jgrimm> that is, 771 looks like its making progress, i think robie was just wanting someone to watch after it
<rharper> sure
<rbasak> Actually, looking now, it looks like it might already be fixed by cyphermox, or at least an SRU in progress.
<rharper> see cpaelzer you should have taken it
<rbasak> So if rharper you could just check that it's all good from a server perspective, that would be appreciated.
<rharper> rbasak: indeed
<rharper> rbasak: anything else for the meeting ?
<jgrimm> not from me
<rbasak> That's all I had. Thanks all. Again, I'm really pleased about the progress everyone is making on this effort - thank you.
<rharper> rbasak: thanks for keeping us on task =)
<rharper> ok, thanks folks
<rharper> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 16:46:11 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-21-16.02.moin.txt
<jgrimm> thanks rharper!!
<caribou> thanks rharper!
<cpaelzer> thanks rharper, cu
<cyphermox> rbasak: what was that that I fixed?
<nacc> rbasak: thanks!
<nacc> rharper: thanks!
<rbasak> cyphermox: bug 1585771 (thanks!)
<ubottu> bug 1585771 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Xenial) "Automatic security upgrades are always enabled" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1585771
<jgrimm>  bug 1585771
<cyphermox> ah ok
<cyphermox> yeah, help verifying the SRU is very welcome :)
<kees> ogasawara: when/where are the kernel team meetings these days? it seems https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting is very out of date :)
<beisner> hi jgrimm - i'm on holiday next week, and still have conflicts at the normal time.  can you cover me?   i'll be back in that chair one day, promise.  :)
<jgrimm> beisner, yes, i'll cover you. thanks for the heads up
<beisner> jgrimm, yw & thanks too
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-22
<jamespage> o/
<gnuoy> o/ (otp)
<jamespage> tinwood, it might just be me and you - I think gnuoy and beisner are tied up
<icey> o/
<gnuoy> tinwood os out
<gnuoy> * is
<coreycb> o/
<jamespage> ok lest start
<jamespage> #startmeeting openstack-charms
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 22 17:03:00 2016 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | openstack-charms Meeting | Current topic:
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | openstack-charms Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<jamespage> gnuoy to update testing for multi-release upgrade testing
<jamespage> #action  gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<meetingology> ACTION: gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<beisner> o/
<jamespage> not sure on the other - lets wait and see
<jamespage> anyway moving on
<jamespage> #topic State of Development for next Charm Release
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<gnuoy> jamespage, sorry, yes. I still need to do both those actions
<jamespage> ok so things are still moving forward; we have alot of momentum on the new layered charms atm so I'd like to target getting all layers, interfaces and new charms under git/gerrit by the end of next week
<jamespage> #action gnuoy to update testing for multi-release upgrade testing
<meetingology> ACTION: gnuoy to update testing for multi-release upgrade testing
<gnuoy> SSL is almost ready ;land into the layers
<gnuoy> eg Yuor layered charm will soon get SSL support for free!
<jamespage> I think that includes charm-aodh, charm-designate, charm-barbican + subordinate + the designate-dns charm as well
<gnuoy> yep
<gnuoy> Documentation has been updated on enabling HA in layered charms hasn't it? or am I imagining that?
<jamespage> also charms from icey and cholcombe: layered ceph-mon should be inbound - do you guys have other layers or interfaces we need to start mvoing?
<jamespage> gnuoy, not yet
<gnuoy> ok, np
<jamespage> gnuoy, I'll do that after we move the guide - just raised the review for that
<gnuoy> kk
<jamespage> charms.openstack also needs to move over...
<jamespage> anything else from anyone on development?
<gnuoy> not from me
<jamespage> coreycb, we need to get your dfs stuff landed - and the sriov support is also on my review list; then thedac's dnsha stuff
<icey> ceph-base will be landing with ceph-mon hopefully
<jamespage> busy day tomorrow methings
<coreycb> jamespage, yes please thanks
<icey> jamespage:  ^
<coreycb> jamespage, I hope to have the rest of DFS systemd init on the way soon
<jamespage> icey, ok - but I'm going to need you to drive the project-config changes for any new repositories - beisner and I have done most to date but we all need to know how!
<icey> ack jamespage
<jamespage> #topic Release Bugs
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<jamespage> #link https://goo.gl/HJjORI
<jamespage> think we could all do with some regular triage time
 * jamespage tables a motion
<jamespage> how about a triage rota? commitment is two hours of triage on your allocated day?
<gnuoy> +1
<jamespage> that's what we're doing for pkgs now
<jamespage> gnuoy, ok I'll work something up
<gnuoy> I hate to say it but I think we should track that it's actually happening too
<jamespage> #action jamespage to create a new triage rota and chase down participants
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage to create a new triage rota and chase down participants
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
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<jamespage> okies - anything else from anyone?
<coreycb> jamespage, any update on licensing?
<jamespage> coreycb, yes!
<jamespage> proceeding on repos where we can:
<jamespage> https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:apache-license
<jamespage> some easy +2's for landing if folk have cycles
 * beisner updated 2 of those bugs as fix-released.  boom.
<jamespage> I think I have three non-responders  - I'll chase again
<jamespage> bdx is one of them :-)
<gnuoy> 16.07 is creeping up, keep that in mind!
<coreycb> jamespage, nice, getting there
<jamespage> and then impact assess - it maybe that we have to exclude some repositories
<jamespage> gnuoy, yah - so I think we have 3.2 weeks left of feature work (to mid July) and then freeze, test release right?
<gnuoy> yeah
<jamespage> okies - lets pick a date for freeze
<jamespage> 14th July
<gnuoy> have done
<jamespage> ?
<gnuoy> it's in the minutes
 * gnuoy can't remember
<jamespage> ok np
<jamespage> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
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<jamespage> +7 days, 1700 UTC
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 22 17:14:34 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-22-17.03.moin.txt
<gnuoy> jamespage, thanks for stepping in at the last minute
<beisner> thx jamespage
<jamespage> ttfn - yw
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-23
<pitti> o/
<sil2100> o/
 * slangasek waves
<chiluk>  /o\
<infinity> o/
<infinity> Ish.
<tdaitx> <o>
<slangasek> infinity: ish? so oâ¿ ?
<infinity> slangasek: Sounds about right.
<pitti> that looks really painful
<caribou> o/
<slangasek> or Ã¸/
 * sil2100 needs to configure mumble on his newish-oldish notebook
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 23 15:04:39 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> tdaitx chiluk infinity mwhudson bdmurray sil2100 doko slangasek xnox barry robru cyphermox caribou pitti
<slangasek> there, now mwhudson can have channel highlights in the middle of the night so he feels loved ;)
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> oh no
 * tdaitx does not have a prompt status
<slangasek> $PS1
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> chiluk: ?
<chiluk> lp#1592862 - Reviewing and trying to understand Ted Ts'o's comments and the backstory for the existing patches.
<chiluk> Other than that, back to non-public things.
<chiluk> lp#1565650 - All related it infiniband on ppc64.
<chiluk> lp#1592424
<chiluk> --done--
<infinity>  - SRU and AA work for point release prep
<infinity>  - Discussions with kernel team to make sure they're ready for the point releases
<infinity>  - Debugging glibc test failures on wily
<infinity>  - Helping with kernel module in-archive signing issues
<infinity>  - Fixed command-not-found in yakkety and xenial for s390x
<infinity>  - Fixed vim python3 integration in yakkety and xenial
<infinity> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> that was fast
<slangasek> :)
<bdmurray> got arm64 retracers running
<bdmurray> verified Error Tracker is no longer using assets
<bdmurray> switched how ssl_cert and ssl_key are set via mojo
<bdmurray> added more logging to retracers (cache, apport version)
<slangasek> fast like lightning
<bdmurray> added verbose option to retracer charm
<bdmurray> resolved upgrade-charm issues in the staging ET
<bdmurray> resolved issues with cassandra information being written to local_config, not db_config
<bdmurray> applied basenode configuation to charms that were missing it
<bdmurray> investigation into and resolution of LP: #1101881
<bdmurray> uploaded W and X SRUs for bug 1101881
<bdmurray> fixed bug-bot's inconsistent SRU regression comments
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1101881 in software-properties (Ubuntu Xenial) "software-properties-gtk crashed with TypeError in __new__(): object of type 'NoneType' has no len()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101881
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> hello
<xnox> somehow got kicked out of the channel
<sil2100> Oh, my time?
<slangasek> sil2100: yep!
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Proposing and implementing per-device channel redirects
<sil2100>   * Wasted a lot of time trying to test everything locally (u-d-m not accepting local SSL cert)
<sil2100>   * Released and testing on live system
<sil2100> - Continued work on introducing a new project for ubuntu-touch respins
<sil2100> - Releasing ubuntu-touch-meta changes for new frameworks
<sil2100> - Improved commitlog generation scripts, looked into missing landing info in recent ones
<sil2100> - Enabled turbo commitlogs
<sil2100> - Prepared a re-spin of the turbo custom tarball to fetch new libertine-scope
<sil2100> - Coordinating final landings for OTA-12
<sil2100> - Looking into the puritine framework situation
<sil2100> - Helping preparing Qt and fontconfig patches for the color-emoji landing
<sil2100> (done)
<pitti> sil2100: faster commit logs?
<sil2100> pitti: for our images, they're now a bit smarter when looking for the bileto landing information
<slangasek> doko:
<slangasek> slangasek:
<slangasek>  * all the sprint things last week!
<slangasek>  * short week, swapped Monday for sprint travel
<slangasek>  * SRU reviews: docker.io, secureboot, etc
<slangasek>  * ongoing work on snappy in Debian
<slangasek>  * snappy firstboot experience: discussion and planning
<slangasek>  * discussions about snappy os snap mastering
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> xnox:
<xnox> zua client almost done - will publish it soon
<xnox> working on /cache FHS proposal
<xnox> working on swapfile proposal
<xnox> fixing installer partitioning on FBA
<xnox> IPL booting off FBA is being worked on by IBM
<xnox> ..
<slangasek> barry is off today; robru is off today
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> hello!
<cyphermox> precise:
<cyphermox> - verified efivar & sbsigntool (bug LP: #1574727)
<cyphermox> - verified mokutil (bug LP: #1574727)
<cyphermox> trusty:
<cyphermox> - verified grub-ieee1275 left-over SRU: nvram variable handling (bug LP: #1549064)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574727 in shim-signed (Ubuntu Wily) "[SRU] Enforce using signed kernels and modules on UEFI" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574727
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1549064 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub-ieee1275 should not change boot-device for every upgrade" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1549064
<cyphermox> yakkety:
<cyphermox> - installer work
<cyphermox> - reviewed livecd-rootfs MATE fixes
<cyphermox> - reviewed ubiquity fixes for mate-settings-daemon loading
<cyphermox> Â±other stuff:
<cyphermox> - Secure Boot SRUs coordination w/ kernel team
<cyphermox> - Secure Boot testing
<cyphermox> - Defining SB test cases, lots of them.
<cyphermox> - shim-signed 1.15: check moksbstate_disabled from /proc/sys/kernel
<cyphermox>   - with SRUs to P, T, W, X.
<cyphermox> - Tomorrow is a national holiday in Quebec, next Friday is a national holiday in Canada.
<cyphermox> (done)
<caribou>  Bugfix :
<caribou>  - multipathd double-free coredump
<caribou>    Tested fix identified by cyphermox.
<caribou>    Need SRU : LP: #1535898
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535898 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "Trusty & Vivid multipath-tools (multipathd) seg-fault core dump" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535898
<caribou> - Tested regression on LP: #1590283 for SRU to apache2-mpm-itk
<caribou>    Caused by bug in apache2 &| apache misconfiguration
<caribou>    No regression found
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1590283 in mpm-itk (Ubuntu) "package libapache2-mpm-itk 2.4.6-01-1ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1590283
<caribou> Development work:
<caribou>  - Uploaded new makedumpfile 1.6.0-1
<caribou> - Ran DEP8 tests for makedumpfile
<caribou>    Tests unreliable. Need more investigation
<caribou>  - Adding dep8 tests to sosreport to comply with new SRU rules
<caribou>  - Meetings
<caribou> â Done
<pitti> network YAML config:
<pitti>  - some more spec refinement, blocked on reviews
<pitti>  - teach NM to read from /run/NetworkManager/system-connections/
<pitti>  - implement NM rendering for eth and bridges
<pitti>  - add code coverage and more tests (practically 100% now), and full system integration test with veths and mac80211hwsim (running as autopkgtset)
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - fix apt mirror (ftpmaster.internal) and proxy for LXD armhf runners
<pitti>  - treat dist-upgrade failures during setup commands as package error instead of tempfail
<pitti>  - lots of maintenance, some cloud failures and still arm64 troubles
<pitti>  - discuss arm64 Scalingstack capacity increase with William
<pitti> systemd:
<pitti>  - fix fsckd autopkgtest regresssion
<pitti>  - run upstream QEMU/nspawn integration tests as autopkgtest (for both our Ubuntu uploads and upstream PRs)
<pitti>  - add option to disable resolved caching (WIP, blocker for foundations-y-local-resolver)
<pitti> distro:
<pitti>  - drop remaining initscripts dependencies from the remaining 8 packages, send patches to Debian, upload to Ubuntu, it's now NBS! \o/
<pitti>  - merge sysvinit, where we now can drop our massive delta and just not build initscripts at all
<pitti>  - merge debhelper
<pitti> (end)
<tdaitx> Short week: working half-day since Monday (and will continue on half-day mode until July 5th)
<tdaitx> = JCK
<tdaitx> - Got Jenkins machine and 4 slaves (2 amd64, 1 ppc64el, 1 arm64); all running Trusty (expecting Xenial but oh well...)
<tdaitx> - Figuring out how this whole Jenkins + slave + logs + everything else works; planning on how to configure and parameterize the various runs I need
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK 8
<tdaitx> - Provided OpenJDK ubuntu packages for Yakkety, Xenial, and Wily with LP: #1594393 fix + debdiffs for sponsoring (up for grabs)
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1594393 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "JVM on PPC64 LE crashes due to an illegal instruction in JITed code" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1594393
<slangasek> pitti: which reviews are you currently blocking on for network yaml?
<slangasek> pitti: arm64 scalingstack capacity> what's the outcome of that discussion / next steps?
<pitti> slangasek: mostly making sure that lool is fine with the current rev; rharper and smoser gave me some ok on IRC (just didn't add a comment in the doc table)
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> ok, was going to do that on mumble, but let's do it here
<pitti> the box only has 22 cards in the 42 slots, so plenty of space
<pitti> and estimation is 4 new carsd
<pitti> cards
<pitti> for autopkgtesting
<infinity> Or... 20? :)
<slangasek> tdaitx: trusty> heh.  Is xenial available if you request it?
<pitti> I spoke to William, he spoke to James; this is apparently a bit sensitive, but James said the best thing to do would be to file an RT as normally
<tdaitx> slangasek: I did request it if it was available, got Trusty, so I am assuming they don't - anyway, I'm looking into lxd setup on Trusty as I have tested my stuff on Xenial's lxd
<slangasek> ok weird :)
<slangasek> alright, any other questions?
<slangasek> seems not
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> Anything else this week, then?
<bdmurray> I'll be out on Friday.
<sil2100> I want to be partially out on Friday
<sil2100> ;)
<slangasek> I'll be in on Friday!
<cyphermox> I'll be out on Friday. It's the official Quebec drinking beer holiday.
<bdmurray> "the official"? is there only one?
<cyphermox> (and I am not kidding, although this isn't how it's called)
<slangasek> all the others are non-statutory beer drinking
<infinity> Ã'll be hanging with a doctor for part of Friday.
<cyphermox> all the others are optional beer; may be other stuff.
<infinity> But not drinking, sadly.
<infinity> And xnox will be having his UK citizenship stripped and getting deported on Friday.
<cyphermox> for instance, since next Friday is Canada day, it's also "moving" day for many people, so in a sense, pizza and beer day? ;)
<infinity> Busy day for all.
<slangasek> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Jean-Baptiste_Day
<slangasek> baptism by beer?
<cyphermox> we know how to roll.
<slangasek> infinity: will xnox have a brunch in a brasserie to celebrate brexit?
<infinity> slangasek: I may have misread that as brunch in a brasier.
<cyphermox> o.O?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 23 15:29:52 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-23-15.04.moin.txt
<slangasek> and on that note
<bdmurray> pitti: Do you have any arm64 retracers running?
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<pitti> bdmurray: no, I don't; I guess I should set some up
 * pitti made a todo item
<bdmurray> pitti: there are very few crashes (a couple a day) ending up in the Error Tracker
<infinity> bdmurray: That's because arm64 is almost perfect!
<tdaitx> and few brave souls are using it
<xnox> infinity, it would be great to have british citizenship stripped. I would claim asylum in canada.
<infinity> xnox: We wouldn't let you in.
<infinity> xnox: We have a law against high-pitched noises that can disturb the wildlife.
<Kilos> lol
 * xnox laughs!
<Kilos> to remove it
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-24
<Kilos> ings
<Kilos> ai!
<Kilos> oops sorry all
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-19
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 19 16:30:45 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> in terms of what I planned to work on last week, I spent a lot of time on the bpf caching PR. I also did a lot of miscellaneous snappy PR and store reviews and I helped with an embargoed issue (unplanned)
<jdstrand> the greengrass-support interface is now merged. Once I'm given a working devmode snap
<jdstrand>  I will test it in strict mode and make any necessary policy adjustments
<jdstrand> this week I plan to:
<jdstrand> - continue to be response to the racy profile generation fixes PRs (ie, bpf caching and system-key). The bpf caching PR is pretty close to merging and shouldn't take too much more of my time
<jdstrand> - pickup the password-manager-service interface work
<jdstrand> - work on the overlayfs/apparmor/snaps investigation by filing various bugs
<jdstrand> - finish the snappy-debug work to work with journald as have time
<jdstrand> - miscellaneous snappy policy updates as have time as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week, and it's a short week for me, I'm off on friday
<mdeslaur> I'm currently releasing glibc and exim4 updates
<mdeslaur> I'm working on ruby updates too
<mdeslaur> I have a bunch of stuff to test this week
<mdeslaur> that's about it
<mdeslaur> hrm, steve's not here...who's next?
<tyhicks> me
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week
<tyhicks> I'm currently working on evaluating fscrypt for home dir encryption
<tyhicks> still need to finalize a final design aspect of the seccomp logging patches
<tyhicks> book upcoming travel
<tyhicks> I have a remaining ecryptfs kernel patch to review
<tyhicks> I will also help leosilva with the update publishing process and possibly with bug triage duties
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> urk
<jjohansen> so I am working on publishing some USNs
<tyhicks> jjohansen: I know you're busy with other things so just a few quick words is fine
<jjohansen> I have some LSS stuff to take care of working on the schedule, book hotel and flight
<jjohansen> I have some more upstream review, and investigation to finish
<jjohansen> I have the namespacing patch set to push out an RFC for
<jjohansen> and I need to get working on the networking/unix socket patchset so I can get an RFC up for it soon, as its the going to be the largest and most picked at of the outstanding work
<jjohansen> I think that is it for me
<jjohansen> I don't see sarnold yet, so back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson_: you're up
<chrisccoulson_> I've got a thunderbird update to do this week
<chrisccoulson_> I'll also be spending some time trying to figure out how maintainable spidermonkey is
<chrisccoulson_> also an embargoed issue
<chrisccoulson_> That's me done
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week
<ratliff> I will continue working through updates for UC15
<ratliff> Any remaining time will be spent on technical content and reporting.
<ratliff> leosilva: your turn
<leosilva> I've finished testing a libnl3 update for 12.04 ESM and I'll be publishing it soon
<leosilva> I'll pick up another security update
<leosilva> I'm also planning to try to train on one of the generalist's rotational roles.
<leosilva> it's for me
<leosilva> tyhicks: it's back to you
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> I don't see sarnold so we'll move on
<tyhicks> he's on CVE triage duty this week and is working on MIRs
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gradle.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python-tablib.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/batmand.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/nagvis.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/k4dirstat.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 19 16:45:16 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-19-16.30.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<ratliff> thanks, tyhicks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<leosilva> tks tyhicks !
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<rbasak> o/
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<sil2100> bdmurray: did we get any nominations for cyphermox's place?
<cyphermox> o/
<rbasak> Quorum!
 * rbasak falls out of his chair
<bdmurray> Its not quorum because cyphermox isn't on the dmb.
<rbasak> Oh :-(
<bdmurray> Who wants to be the meeting runner?
<sil2100> I could
<sil2100> Should be a quick meeting
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 19 19:06:18 2017 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> I don't think we have too many of those, on the agenda I only see the one action from rbasak regarding Aron's request
<sil2100> rbasak: did that get resolved in the end?
<rbasak> I just followed up. I propose that we consider my action item done now, unless happyaron replies?
<rbasak> (in which case we can pick it up as new work again)
<sil2100> Ok
<sil2100> Since we don't have anything else, let's move on
<bdmurray> Works fo me
<sil2100> #topic Board business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Board business
<sil2100> A separate topic for that, I guess we're currently officially missing one person in the DMB
<sil2100> Like, from the required 7-people
<sil2100> + some others stopped attending
<bdmurray> That's true we never received nominations when I sent the 2nd call out.
<sil2100> cyphermox: did you want to re-apply?
<cyphermox> yes
<sil2100> ...you're in! DONE, let's go home
<sil2100> Kidding, but yeah, in this case we only have one candidate, so I guess no voting here is needed?
<bdmurray> rbasak: One idea we discussed at our sprint was reducing the number of members.
<bdmurray> sil2100: but Adam's membership expires shortly
<sil2100> We're anyway operating usually with 4-5 people
<rbasak> bdmurray: wouldn't that make our lack of average attendance worse? Or is it really to reduce quorum?
<rbasak> In which case, perhaps we should reduce quorum while keeping the membership size the same?
<rbasak> (we might have to ask the TB for that)
<sil2100> We could, but as said we anyway basically have 4-5 active board members
<sil2100> And there doesn't seem to be much interest from other people to join the DMB
<bdmurray> I guess its really to reduce quorum but we also have a few members who don't make meetings often.
<sil2100> At least from the recent call for nominations
<bdmurray> Is it worth keeping them on?
<rbasak> Perhaps we should ask them. I appreciate the effort to try to sort this out, but I'm not sure that reducing the size of the DMB will help, as in the long term that just means that we have a smaller pool to try to find quorum from.
<rbasak> OTOH, as you point out, we may not have much choice.
<rbasak> But in that case, perhaps we can just leave some seats vacant, with a reduced quorum?
<bdmurray> Leave them vacant with a permanent "help wanted" sign?
<rbasak> Perhaps, yes. I haven't thought through possible consequences of this mind.
<rbasak> And we could also ask the absent members if they want to step down, which would reduce our quorum (depending on its exact definition, but I think all would consider not counting vacant seats reasonable).
<bdmurray> Okay, so we don't have quorum now in this meeting so I think the first bit of work should be getting cyphermox re-added for some period of time.
<sil2100> Should we write down an action item for that?
<rbasak> https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members says he's current, until 4 August?
<sil2100> Oh, indeed, wait, but we saw him being expired right?
<bdmurray> Oh somebody sync'ed up him with Adam.
<sil2100> I guess that's sorted out then..?
<sil2100> I wonder who though
<bdmurray> Not for long...
<bdmurray> So which members should we reach out to?
<rbasak> All those not here, IMHO.
<sil2100> +1
<rbasak> (which would then cover everyone)
<sil2100> Who would like to get this action item?
<bdmurray> If there are 3 people then 3 people can take it.
<bdmurray> Rather than giving 1 person all the work lets divy it up.
<sil2100> #action rbasak, bdmurray and sil2100 to ask absent DMB members if they want to continue being part of the DMB
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak, bdmurray and sil2100 to ask absent DMB members if they want to continue being part of the DMB
<rbasak> ack
<sil2100> Should I go and ask infinity maybe? Although I think I already can guess his answer
<cyphermox> sil2100: bdmurray: infinity synced my expiration to his.
<sil2100> Even with this covered we really need to discuss what next - maybe there will be more interest in a wider call for nominations? Maybe we should announce that somewhere else as well? bdmurray did you send it to the devel ML too?
<sil2100> cyphermox: ah, ok
<bdmurray> It made it to the fridge and stuff
<bdmurray> rbasak: Could you draft an argument for why we should reduce quorum and keep the member count at 7?
<rbasak> OK
<bdmurray> At one point in time I thought someone mentioned you didn't *need* to be a core-dev to be on the dmb.
<rbasak> I do recall that. Though I am dubious at the proposition TBH.
<bdmurray> rbasak: The TB just reduced their member count IIRC - so maybe there's a reson for that.
<rbasak> IIRC the TB reduced to become odd without sabdfl for draw-breaking purposes.
<bdmurray> cyphermox, sil2100: Do you have an opinion on non core-devs in the DMB? My thought was if its okay we might get more applicants.
<bdmurray> I'm not saying I'm in favor of it though.
<sil2100> hm, wasn't it like that?
<cyphermox> well the usual point was that not being a core-dev, you weren't as much in a position to evaluate on things you haven't necessarily done before
<sil2100> I remember someone mentioning being part of the DMB while being MOTU
<cyphermox> but I'm not sure even opening it to all developers will necessarily improve the response to calls for nominations
<cyphermox> I think we've already been working with MOTUs and core-devs in the DMB in the past, it was never "just core-devs"
<sil2100> I have no strong opinion here, but I would like someone to have at least MOTU privilages personally
<sil2100> Although core-devs seem to be the best fit for board members, especially as per what cyphermox said
<bdmurray> That's enough of a consensus for me then.
<cyphermox> there's nothing wrong with not being in the core-dev or MOTU teams and being on the DMB per se
<cyphermox> the idea is that those who evaluate applicants should be trusted, contributing members of the developer community (and that's why we submit DMB applicants to vote by the developer community at large)
<rbasak> It's possibly not up to us anyway, but the TB.
<cyphermox> the "knowing what you're talking about part" is kind of a side-effect of being able to get the votes to be elected.
<rbasak> ...except when we can't get enough nominations for the seats available.
<jbicha> I wasn't here earlier in the meeting, have you gotten any nominations yet?
<cyphermox> in that context, we don't have much choice but to reduce numbers, or do away with the DMB altogether and let the TB deal with the applications
<bdmurray> jbicha: No, we didn't really.
<sil2100> jbicha: are you interested in nominating yourself?
<jbicha> I was thinking about applying; I guess my biggest hesitation was the 2 year committment
<bdmurray> That's only 52 meetings if that
<jbicha> lol
<bdmurray> We won't expect you on holidays
<jbicha> ok, I'll go ahead and put my self-nomination in, probably later today
<rbasak> Thanks!
<sil2100> jbicha: thanks!
<sil2100> Ok, I guess there's not much more we can discuss here, right?
<bdmurray> sil2100: we should clarify who is following up with the inactive members. you have infinity?
<sil2100> bdmurray: yeah, I'll take infinity
<bdmurray> I can talk to ben, that leaves micah.
<rbasak> That means me I think?
<sil2100> Once we know how many 'free seats' we'll be having we can resume our discussion on what to do next
<sil2100> Since from expirations we'll have 2 seats free but we already have 2 candidates, so that's settled - now depending if the inactive members want to still continue or not
<bdmurray> rbasak: you or cyphermox
<sil2100> rbasak: will you take care of micah?
<rbasak> ack
<bdmurray> sil2100: cyphermox should officially nominate himself too
<cyphermox> I did send an email weeks ago
<cyphermox> I will send it again
<sil2100> You did? I probably missed it, a re-send would be welcome
<bdmurray> Was it during the 1st call or the 2nd call?
<sil2100> We'll re-visit the situation next week
<sil2100> I mean, next meeting
<sil2100> Anything else for board business?
<bdmurray> That's all I can think of.
<sil2100> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<sil2100> I guess no other business as well?
<sil2100> Let's call it a day then
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 19 19:55:24 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-19-19.06.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks everyone o/
<rbasak> Thanks sil2100!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-20
 * dpb1 drops off sword and starts a campfire
<cpaelzer> o/
<slashd> o/
<nacc> o/
<ahasenack> o/
<dpb1> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 20 15:59:52 2017 UTC.  The chair is dpb1. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<dpb1> who we got?
<ahasenack> o/
 * dpb1 stokes fire a bit waiting for people to show
<rbasak> o/
<smb> o/
<dpb1> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<powersj> o/
<dpb1> #action  rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<rbasak> Carry over please
<dpb1> hm
<dpb1> to carry over do we just leave it sit?
 * rbasak is adding a Trello card :-/
<dpb1> ty
<dpb1> #action nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<dpb1> #action nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<dpb1> still want to do these two nacc ?
<teward> (I'm late, sorry)
<nacc> dpb1: yeah, carry them please
<cpaelzer> the embarrassment-level of having these all these release notes still around is rising :-)
<cpaelzer> hi teward
<dpb1> ok rharper your turn
<dpb1> rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<dpb1> rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<dpb1> these feel more done, since we have them on rtd
<rharper> carry of course
<dpb1> could we link them to the RTD pages?
<rharper> yes
<ahasenack> what's rtf?
<ahasenack> er
<ahasenack> rtd
<dpb1> readthedocs
<rharper> Read The Docs
<dpb1> #action rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rharper to write a server guide entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<dpb1> #action rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rharper to write a release notes entry on v2 yaml support in cloud-init (carried over)
<cpaelzer> #link http://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
<dpb1> #link http://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
<cpaelzer> thanks dpb1
<dpb1> #topic Artful Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Artful Development
<dpb1> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
<dpb1> #subtopic Trello
<dpb1> Just wanted to let everyone know we have replaced "the blueprint" with a trello board
<dpb1> #link https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/daily-ubuntu-server
<dpb1> know we talked about it last week, but just a reminder
<teward> dpb1: +1 for that - it's a lot more useful than 'the blueprint' in my opinion.
<dpb1> thx teward
<teward> (also better at-a-glance to see what's going on in what states)
<dpb1> +1
<dpb1> #subtopic Active work that may need wider communication
<dpb1> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<cpaelzer> I have something I wondered on devel, actually on proposed migration in general
<dpb1> floor is yours cpaelzer
<cpaelzer> if any migration issues were overrulled by the power of an AA or such, can that be tracked afterwards anywhere?
<cpaelzer> -l
<ahasenack> what are the usual reasons?
<ahasenack> flaky tests?/
<teward> testsuite fail
<cpaelzer> yes
<teward> package dependencies not built
<teward> etc.
<ahasenack> I think for flaky tests a bug can be filed
<ahasenack> we shouldn't get used to failing tests
<teward> there's also the case where "new binary packages" exist that didn't exist before and they usually are just cashiered in.
<dpb1> cpaelzer: you mean, we have moved the trello card into done already, that kind of tracking?
<cpaelzer> no
<cpaelzer> let me explain
<cpaelzer> I had a package which is a auto-sync from Debian
<cpaelzer> and it passed into artful, so it has completed its proposed migration
<cpaelzer> I was wondering if somebody "shoved" it through as since then all related tests were failing
<teward> don't non-merge autosyncs skip proposed migration?
<cpaelzer> I have seen other auto-syncs in migration
<cpaelzer> if some skip there must be a splitter somewhere which decides
<cpaelzer> e.g. mininet 2.2.2-1 was in artful, but until then http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/mininet/artful/amd64 had NO listing of any 2.2.2-1 test
<cpaelzer> but I don't want to pick on this case
<cpaelzer> I have found and fixed it
<cpaelzer> I wonder if I have package X in release Y - is there any way/place I can check if anything was --force ?
<dpb1> audit log
<cpaelzer> like as launchpad has a publication history if there is a "package exception history" anywhere?
<dpb1> or something like that
<cpaelzer> yeah
<ahasenack> I guess only an AA can answer
<dpb1> Might be worth a reach out to ubuntu-devel
<cpaelzer> maybe with better words, but yes
<cpaelzer> ok I'll take an action to ask
<cpaelzer> I wanted to know it, so I volunteer to ask about it
<dpb1> #action cpaelzer reach out to ubuntu-devel@/AA and find out if an audit log of package exceptions exists anywhere
<meetingology> ACTION: cpaelzer reach out to ubuntu-devel@/AA and find out if an audit log of package exceptions exists anywhere
<dpb1> Any other topics to bring up about artful development?
<dpb1> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd)
<slashd> Here's the list of LP bugs that SEG is currently working on : http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/24908778/
<slashd> - By any chance, if there is a SRU verification member amongst us who has some cycle, we would appreciate to have someone approving the upload listed under [SRU verification needed] ^. Otherwise, it's fine I'll ask the SRU vanguard.
<slashd> - Also note that we are currently working on a MIR process to request to uplift 'pcp' pkg from Ubuntu universe to Ubuntu main. The paper work is not ready yet, but we are working on it. I'll probably have more to say about it next week.
<slashd> #info SRU pending for : percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5, nfs-utils, autofs5, percona-xtradb-cluster-5.6 percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5, multipath-tools, isc-dhcp
<dpb1> #info SRU pending for : percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5, nfs-utils, autofs5, percona-xtradb-cluster-5.6 percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5, multipath-tools, isc-dhcp
<cpaelzer> adding - #info further SRU pending: qemu, ntp
<dpb1> rbasak: any suggestion on the SRU for slashd?
<dpb1> #info further SRU pending: qemu, ntp
<rbasak> It's an endless queue unfortunately. It's my SRU day tomorrow - I'll take a look if I get that far.
<slashd> rbasak, thanks
<dpb1> slashd: any help needed on the bug list?
<cpaelzer> slashd: I wonder - are you usually relying on SRU verification team?
<slashd> dpb1, everything is under control
<cpaelzer> usually we try to get the reporters to help, who would that be in your case
<cpaelzer> any on site partner maybe?
<slashd> cpaelzer, we are always relying on them for SRU
<cpaelzer> or are they totally out of the loop in your case?
<cpaelzer> ah ok, then it is the same
<cpaelzer> so "just" the normal SRU duty
<cpaelzer> which rbasak and his peers are fighting the queue
<cpaelzer> thanks slashd
<dpb1> thanks slashd for the summary, interesting bugs this week. :)
<dpb1> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<dpb1> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> Last week got the cloud-init tests of COPR complete and running daily. Overhauled the daily tests of cloud-init and as of last night, got the CI pipeline in place and operational. Continue to run into some issues with pylxd and lxd 2.14, so running a local patched version of pylxd until pypi can be updated. And a blog post on our sprint.
<powersj> This week get the CI pipeline announced, get the ISO tests green, and back to proposed testing.
<powersj> questions?
<dpb1> have you checked with anyone on the pylxd issue?
<dpb1> or is there a bug filed?
<powersj> yes it is a matter of getting a new version uploaded to pypi
<powersj> and yes
<dpb1> linky linky?
<powersj> https://github.com/lxc/pylxd/issues/232
<slashd> dpb1, Is it possible to add on the #topic server ddstreet as a backup in case I'm absent ?
<dpb1> #link https://github.com/lxc/pylxd/issues/232
<dpb1> #action dpb look into why this is stalled https://github.com/lxc/pylxd/issues/232
<meetingology> ACTION: dpb look into why this is stalled https://github.com/lxc/pylxd/issues/232
<rbasak> slashd: I suggest you just go ahead and edit
<rbasak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<dpb1> slashd: I'll do it
<slashd> rbasak, dpb1 I did but it seems ddstreet disapeared from the list.
<dpb1> #action dpb add on the #topic server ddstreet as a backup in case slashd is absent ?
<meetingology> ACTION: dpb add on the #topic server ddstreet as a backup in case slashd is absent ?
<slashd> dpb1, thanks
<dpb1> slashd: thx for bringing it up
<dpb1> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
 * rbasak suspects someone is using something other than the agenda to paste in meetingology commands :-)
<smb> An embargoed CVE uncloaked on your port side. Many new kernels launched. Otherwise the 4.11 kernel for artful still waits in proposed for better times (not sure what keeps it as I was distracted by previous news item). Are there questions?
<cpaelzer> smb: since you love the questions ahead of time, 4.14 next LTS is that in time for 18.04 ?
<dpb1> rbasak: (aside) it's why I took the action, I want to clean up the sources of truth
<smb> cpaelzer, maybe too soon even.
<smb> cpaelzer, estimated release of 4.14 is Nov-2017
<cpaelzer> ~November/December
<cpaelzer> yeah
<cpaelzer> too bad
<cpaelzer> try to stall the current 70 day cacle :-)
<dpb1> As the kernel turns....
<smb> Those plans ever worked sooo well
<dpb1> OK.
<dpb1> thx smb
<dpb1> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<dpb1> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<powersj> I did submit for debconf, but haven't heard back
<dpb1> any conferences or deadlines people are aiming for?
<cpaelzer> I heard that people are going to http://event.share.org/page/share-providence-registration
<cpaelzer> but it is too late to submit own ones
<cpaelzer> I'll track feedback from there with jfh, if it seems useful I might consider that next time
<cpaelzer> I was a regular speaker there in the past which might help to get accepted
<cpaelzer> but for now just FYI
<dpb1> #link http://event.share.org/page/share-providence-registration
<dpb1> #info cpaelzer interested in investgating for useful content.
<dpb1> that will be a great line item in the meeting notes
<teward> heh
<dpb1> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<cpaelzer> hehe
<teward> better than what cpaelzer is taking from an OOB discussion as a quote regarding NTP from me xD  (lol)
<cpaelzer> #link http://events.share.org/Summer2017/Public/Sessions.aspx?undefinedSuperTrackId=&TrackId=&AssociationId=&DateId=&FormatId=&DurationId=&SpeakerId=&AbilityLevelId=&SessionTypeId=&SubExpoId=&Keyword=ubuntu&&SearchEvent=&View=Sessions_summary
<cpaelzer> all ubuntu covering sessions scheduled for this time
<cpaelzer> but we are at Team events, sorry - too late
<dpb1> #link http://events.share.org/Summer2017/Public/Sessions.aspx?undefinedSuperTrackId=&TrackId=&AssociationId=&DateId=&FormatId=&DurationId=&SpeakerId=&AbilityLevelId=&SessionTypeId=&SubExpoId=&Keyword=ubuntu&&SearchEvent=&View=Sessions_summary
<powersj> we need another bug squashing day, been too long
<dpb1> cpaelzer: it's ok, the meeting notes are already sunk this week, best to sink them all the way
<cpaelzer> powersj: +1 *
<dpb1> #idea new bug squashing day is needed
<cpaelzer> * = if nothing in server-next teases you please help clear the expiring backlog
<cpaelzer> more on the open discussion
<dpb1> powersj: how do we normally announce it?
 * cpaelzer is waiting for dpb1 to spin the topic-wheel-of-fortune
<powersj> to mailing list
<cpaelzer> nacc: writes to the list
<cpaelzer> and we update the wiki
<cpaelzer> there is a common header on all our pages
<nacc> technically anyone can do it
<nacc> :)
<dpb1> I nominate powersj to do it
<powersj> *sigh*
<dpb1> any seconds?
<dpb1> :)
<powersj> go ahead and give me the action, I'll show the rest of you how to complete an action item
<powersj> ;)
<cpaelzer> yeah !!
<dpb1> #humblebrag
<rharper> lol
<dpb1> #action powersj schedule a bugsquashing day!
<meetingology> ACTION: powersj schedule a bugsquashing day!
<dpb1> exciting
<dpb1> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<teward> just... keep yer mitts off nginx - it's gonna have some rapid-changes in the next while :P
<dpb1> teward: yay!
<teward> (I literally have an upload 'prepped' if it passes sbuild fails)
<teward> s/fails//
<cpaelzer> nice
<ahasenack> cpaelzer: you had something here?
<cpaelzer> yeah
 * dpb1 notices the fire is getting low, good time for open discussion
 * teward tosses more logs on the fire.
<cpaelzer> we gave some more content to
<teward> :P
<cpaelzer> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase
<cpaelzer> There was he suggestion that the better we define that the more we can have:
<cpaelzer> 1. agreement how we actually do things - yeah
<cpaelzer> 2. give other people a chance to help us
<cpaelzer> Please anyone who can give it a review and improvment
<cpaelzer> we can then use that if we get requests to help our triaging, backlog clearing, ...
<dpb1> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase
<cpaelzer> along that there is another change to discuss
<cpaelzer> since the Team sprint we report all expiring backlog
<dpb1> #help please review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase esp. triage section
<cpaelzer> the list is so long that nobody tackles the remaining bugs
<cpaelzer> and it is discouraging being on triage schedule
<cpaelzer> rbasak: brought up (thanks!) that this is just the same again we had with triaging at all
<cpaelzer> there we made a list of all the backlog we have
<cpaelzer> and picked them one by one as we could afford to do so
<cpaelzer> in that mindset I have prepared a few things
<cpaelzer> our current backlog that we as the Team need to clear
<cpaelzer> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16CTKVQUjG78xi527_68uN4kVQ2EVYo6T7pFGouVwL_k/edit?ts=57abafba#gid=734042816
<cpaelzer> not sure this is public
 * dpb1 looks
<dpb1> oh goodness
<cpaelzer> that is a new tab in the same gdoc that helped to clear the old backlog
<cpaelzer> as painful as it is we need to clear that
<dpb1> I opened up view access
<cpaelzer> please each of us pick a few and get them done in the context as described on the wiki
<cpaelzer> ok dpb1
<cpaelzer> if that is ok there is another extension
<cpaelzer> #link https://github.com/powersj/ubuntu-server-triage/pull/13
<cpaelzer> that is a MP to the triaging tool we use
<dpb1> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16CTKVQUjG78xi527_68uN4kVQ2EVYo6T7pFGouVwL_k/edit?ts=57abafba#gid=734042816
<dpb1> #link https://github.com/powersj/ubuntu-server-triage/pull/13
<cpaelzer> if merged, it will ensure you only see "YOUR" expiring bugs
<cpaelzer> so if today is your triage day
<cpaelzer> then you'll see all server-next expiring 60 from today
<cpaelzer> ...
<cpaelzer> but if you miss to complete your duty today it won't be punted to the next member the next day
<cpaelzer> on top the list is shorter and less discouraging
<cpaelzer> any objections to the suggested change in tooling behaviour or how we hadnle the backlog?
 * dpb1 recommends next time cpaelzer adds an agenda item for this "open disucssion"
<cpaelzer> agreed
 * cpaelzer begs all your pardon
<dpb1> cpaelzer: I think it's good.  the wiki summarizes things well
<cpaelzer> ok, lets keep track of picking from the backlog in the daily standup and sync on that next week here
<cpaelzer> #action check progress on clearing expiration backlog (all of us)
<meetingology> ACTION: check progress on clearing expiration backlog (all of us)
<dpb1> hm
<cpaelzer> nice that command seems to work from me - interesting
<dpb1> can I adjust action items?
<cpaelzer> very unexpected
 * dpb1 "fixes"
<ahasenack> I like your QA approach :)
<ahasenack> "this shouldn't work, let's try it"
<dpb1> #action add agenda item for next week to check on triage progress.
<meetingology> ACTION: add agenda item for next week to check on triage progress.
<dpb1> dpb1^^^ ugh
<dpb1> ok
<dpb1> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<cpaelzer> ahasenack: that is how you test, be mean to programs :-)
<ahasenack> +1
<dpb1> Next meeting Tuesday, 2017-06-27 at 1600 UTC, chair will be ahasenack
<ahasenack> hoy
<dpb1> #info Next meeting Tuesday, 2017-06-27 at 1600 UTC, chair will be ahasenack
<dpb1> and that's all folks, thanks for participating
<dpb1> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 20 16:46:10 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-20-15.59.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> thanks dpb1 for leading our campfire
<powersj> thx dpb1
<ahasenack> cheers
 * dpb1 kicks dirt over the coals
<dpb1> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-22
 * slangasek waves
<rcj> o/
<rbalint> o/
 * tdaitx yaws
<tdaitx> *yawns
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 22 15:02:29 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> so, are we adding rcj philroche Odd_Bloke Tribaal to the lightning round today?
<rcj> Sounds good to me, but I have something to report (if you get to me first) ;)
<slangasek> gaughen:
<gaughen> yeah
<gaughen> o\
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e doko bdmurray slangasek infinity sil2100 cyphermox tdaitx xnox mwhudson rbalint rcj philroche Odd_Bloke Tribaal fginther)
<slangasek> mwhudson infinity fginther cyphermox slangasek rcj bdmurray tdaitx rbalint Tribaal philroche Odd_Bloke sil2100 doko xnox
<slangasek> mwhudson not here at this hour of coures
<slangasek> fginther: you're first, I think
<fginther> Nothing to advertise
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> MIR:
<cyphermox> - reviewing spice-vdagent
<cyphermox> artful:
<cyphermox> - netplan announce
<cyphermox> - debugging DNS resolution lxd/resolved/dnsmasq/etc.
<cyphermox> - debugging ubiquity removal bug (bug LP: #1698752)
<cyphermox> - discussing removal of resolvconf
<cyphermox> - sponsoring sudo for rbalint
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1698752 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity is still installed after standard desktop 17.10 installation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1698752
<cyphermox> - testing update-secureboot-policy tracking of dkms packages
<cyphermox> netplan:
<cyphermox> - netplan SRU verifications
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - identify systemd networkd SRU for bond+bridge
<cyphermox> and it looks like I forgot to put in debugging the autopkgtests for netplan in artful
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> cyphermox: any highlights for the week?
<cyphermox> nah
<slangasek>  * short week, off last Friday
<slangasek>  * SRU of powerpc-utils (LP: #1696434, LP: #1692837)
<slangasek>  * discussions around cloud-init support for multiple NICs with same hwaddr
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1696434 in powerpc-utils (Ubuntu Zesty) "drmgr command fails during the scale-up test on Novalink System (Brazos)" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1696434
<slangasek>  * a bit of proposed-migration management
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1692837 in powerpc-utils (Ubuntu Zesty) "Ubuntu 16.04.02: powerpc-ibm-utils: drmgr does not scale with large number of virtual adapters" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1692837
<slangasek>  * some NEW processing from the flood of Debian syncs
<slangasek>  * set up auto-building of new cm3 ubuntu-core image
<slangasek> rcj:
<slangasek> (done)
<rcj> CVE-2017-1000364 "Stack Clash":
<ubottu> An issue was discovered in the size of the stack guard page on Linux, specifically a 4k stack guard page is not sufficiently large and can be "jumped" over (the stack guard page is bypassed), this affects Linux Kernel versions 4.11.5 and earlier (the stackguard page was introduced in 2010). (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-1000364)
<rcj> - Release images published for cloud-images across all supported releases to address the CVE
<gaughen> slangasek, any highlights?
<rcj> (done)
<slangasek> gaughen: nope
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<rcj> bdmurray:
<slangasek> bdmurray is out
 * sil2100 pokes bdmurray
<tdaitx> should I go?
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> Short week: working half days + 1~2 extra hours since Monday
<tdaitx> * HIGHLIGHT (?) +1 maintenance:
<tdaitx> - openvas-libraries 8.0.8 fix superseeded by 9.0.1 release
<tdaitx> - lvtk tentative fix superseesed by Dimitri's correct fix
<tdaitx> - libqmi investigation ongoing (LP: #1699599); hmm... why isn't the bug showing up in the ftbfs page?
<tdaitx> Note: flying back to Brazil on Sunday noon, will be back on Brazil Monday noon, taking the day off
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1699599 in libqmi (Ubuntu) "[FTBFS] libqmi 1.18.0-1 fails test during build time" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1699599
<rbalint> * triaging, review #1691489
<rbalint> * GCE work including new upstream: LP: #1699105
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1699105 in gce-compute-image-packages (Ubuntu Zesty) "Update google compute-image-packages to 20170609" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1699105
<rbalint> * Azure image preparations
<rbalint> * reproduction #1696970
<rbalint> (no highlights now)
<slangasek> Tribaal:
<slangasek> tdaitx: why is xnox stealing lvtk out from under you? :)
<xnox> huh?!
<tdaitx> slangasek, probably because I didn't open a bug?
<sil2100> Because xnox is a thief!
<sil2100> Let's put him in that Portland jail that we escaped from!
<slangasek> xnox: I told tdaitx to fix lvtk for +1 maint / core-dev :)
<tdaitx> and xnox knows waf better than me =P
<slangasek> it's ok
<Tribaal> * HIGHLIGHT (?) SRE stuff for Stack clash (highlight in that I learned how read the build system status page better thanks to philroche)
<xnox> tdaitx, slangasek: i was told to fix thing sin proposed-migration, so clearly i went to fix oldest things not migrating.
<tdaitx> xnox, it's fine, my tentative fix was not working, after seeing yours, I knew why ;-)
<sil2100> xnox: I'm working on the octave bits if anything
<sil2100> xnox: just so you know
<slangasek> xnox: hmm, asked by someone other than me? I thought you were going to work on the s390x-specific migration failures :)
<slangasek> philroche:
<xnox> slangasek, it ftbfs on s390x!
<philroche> - lpshipit autobuild from github using build.snapcraft.io
<philroche> - gce-compute-image-packages testing for SRU
<philroche> - Support publishing of cloud-images due to CVE
<philroche> (done)
<slangasek> Odd_Bloke is off
<slangasek> sil2100:
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - Was off last Thursday and Friday, shorter week
<sil2100> - Many kernel re-spin SRU reviews
<sil2100> - +1 maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Prepping some instructions for Tiago
<sil2100>   * Some work on the liboctave transition, no-change rebuilds
<sil2100>   * Preparing test-fix packages for matlab2tikz, all good and approved upstream
<sil2100>   * Working on upstreaming the matlab2tikz against their develop branch
<sil2100> - Regular SRU:
<sil2100>   * Additional changes to the switch to verification-done-* branch in u-a-t
<sil2100>   * Preparing script for notifying all existing untested SRUs about the policy change
<sil2100>   * Started hacking bug-agent code to add a v-d notification check to bugs as per Brian's proposition
<sil2100>   * Multiple package reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Prepping and sponsoring gce backports to stable releases
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - HIGHLIGHT (?) Should we maybe mention the new stable kernel re-spins being reviewed this week?
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> I guess the SRU verification switch from verification-done to verification-done-SERIES I'd prefer to do on Monday next week, since this week I don't want to rush it with everything else on my plate
<sil2100> That would be highlight worthy for next week too I guess
<doko> - investigating GCC issue building kernel on arm64
<doko> - GCC6/GCC7 updates
<doko> - preparing for test rebuild
<doko> - binutils trunk testing, looking and reporting for regressions
<doko> (done)
<xnox> #Highlight Prepare pre-release images for rax OnMetal 16.04 LTS
<xnox> #Highlight upload mdadm 4.0 to debian (should auto-sync into artful soon)
<xnox> Prepare specs for migration to systemd resolve
<xnox> Prepare spec / discussion to move to openssl 1.1.0
<xnox> Prepare further systemd srus
<xnox> Prepare systemd resolve improvements for artful
<xnox> ð©
<slangasek> any questions wrt status?
<gaughen> doko, anything worth putting in our dev summary?
<cyphermox> no questions
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> Anything else today?
<gaughen> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<gaughen> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1624644 is unassigned
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1624644 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Artful) "Unable to automatically remove packages that become unused in conjunction with updating by other software" [High,Confirmed]
<slangasek> now it's assigned
<slangasek> LP: 1686470
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686470 in apt (Ubuntu Zesty) "Apt updates that are uniformly spread across all timezones, with predictable application windows" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686470
<gaughen> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/1686470 is unassigned
<slangasek> assigned now
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
 * sil2100 bookmarks
<slangasek> all criticals/highs now triaged, assigned
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/aptdaemon/+bug/1673258
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1673258 in update-notifier (Ubuntu Artful) "Remove aptdaemon and drop or port its reverse-dependencies" [Undecided,New]
<slangasek> needs discussion
<slangasek> ok, looks like we're done
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 22 15:45:24 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-22-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks!
<sil2100> o/
<tdaitx> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-06-18
<slashd> o/
<tsimonq2> o/
<slashd> any dmb meeting today ?
<tsimonq2> I guess not.
<sil2100> I guess there's not much on the agenda
<sil2100> o/
<tsimonq2> Oh hey.
<tsimonq2> Could someone remind me how much quorum is?
<sil2100> 4 people
<tsimonq2> Ah.
<sil2100> But probably micahg` is around as well
<slashd> tsimonq2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Quorum
<sil2100> So theoretically we do have quorum, but I guess there's nothing on the agenda
<tsimonq2> Right.
<tsimonq2> I guess if there's nothing to discuss we can end it here. :)
<slashd> ok have a good rest of the day guys ;)
<tsimonq2> You too!
<sil2100> o/ Same to you!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-06-21
<rbalint> o/
<tribaal> o/
<rbalint> tribaal, o/ :-)
<tribaal> hi rbalint :)
<juliank> intruder alert!
<philroche> \o o/ \o
<tribaal> hehe
<rcj> o/
<tribaal> hi juliank rcj philroche
 * tribaal will listen quietly from the back of the class
 * tribaal just wanted to say hi :)
<bdmurray> tribaal: this is open to community members
 * slangasek waves
<cyphermox> o/
 * philroche deletes all anti tribaal rants from his weekly update
<tribaal> hi bdmurray slangasek cyphermox
<tribaal> bdmurray: ah well then :) I'm here :)
<Odd_Bloke> tribaal: o/
<tribaal> Odd_Bloke: o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 21 15:04:08 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<fginther> hey tribaal
<tribaal> hi fginther
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther)
<slangasek> infinity bdmurray sil2100 mwhudson rcj philroche slangasek fginther tdaitx doko cyphermox Odd_Bloke rbalint juliank xnox
<slangasek> no infinity so bdmurray
<bdmurray> submitted RT 112238 regarding retracers being unable to connect to cassandra
<bdmurray> updated RT 112238 as it still wasn't working (sorted now)
<bdmurray> emailed cassandra charm dev regarding issues with cassandra charm (twice)
<bdmurray> tested latest version of the cassandra charm (multiple times)
<bdmurray> modified daisy to kick kodi and mysql-workbench crashes to the end of line
<bdmurray> reviewed mojo spec changes from IS (needed fixing, now merged)
<bdmurray> tested initramfs-tools fix for LP: #1768230 (good)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1768230 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Long time booting : Failed to connect to lvmetad. Falling back to device scanning." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1768230
<bdmurray> submitted sru_workflow MP regarding time to release to -updates (needs review)
<bdmurray> reviewed unowned packages from package to team mapping
<bdmurray> irc discussion with powersj regarding possible expiration of KPI data
<bdmurray> modified point release process to include updating u-r-u (mirrors list)
<bdmurray> RT was submitted for the above
<bdmurray> special SRU review of lxcfs for stgraber
<bdmurray> talked with IS about RT 108968 - outstanding MP, got it merged
<bdmurray> submitted RT re flipping four failed queue retracers to the regular queue due to backlog
<bdmurray> submitted MP re package-subscribers (ubuntu-archive-tools) and dropping teams
<bdmurray> identified and documented packages that would be abandoned by dropping teams
<bdmurray> discussion with juliank regarding noawait trigger fixing
<bdmurray> submitted mojo spec MP locking down cassandra version, skipping nagios check for rabbitmq (merged)
<bdmurray> searching for more trigger changes to noawait
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<xnox> bah
<bdmurray> rcj:
<rcj> * cloud-image care and feeding
<rcj> * eks image development
<rcj> * work on bringing the AWS SSM agent snap back to Xenial AMIs
<rcj> (done)
<philroche> * Cloud image build system vanguard
<philroche> * Minimal image verification
<philroche> (done)
<slangasek>  * short week; was off Mon/Tue
<slangasek>  * spent some time looking into ghc armhf SIGBUSes to no avail
<slangasek>  * discussions around cloud-init and locale settings (LP: #1134036)
<slangasek>  * progress on being able to include openssh-server in the server seed (LP: #1576353)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1134036 in maas (Ubuntu) "Failure when using ssh with a locale that is not configured on the server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1134036
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1576353 in Ubuntu CD Images "Install openssh-server with disabled password auth by default on servers" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1576353
<slangasek>  * misc SRU and NEW review work
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> fginther:
<fginther> * Out two days for holiday
<fginther> * Transering some image builds to a new host
<fginther> * Other build system work
<fginther> â done
<tdaitx> Short week: 6/h day past week; 5 hours away this week
<tdaitx> * JCK 8:
<tdaitx>   - solved kerberos configuration for jck runtime
<tdaitx>   - minimizing errors/failures for more reliable automation:
<tdaitx>     - testing different window managers to fix UI tests
<tdaitx>     - exploring different concurrency settings & test subsets
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 7 security update:
<tdaitx>   - eclipse fails to start with zero vm in amd64/i386
<tdaitx>   - trying to reproduce on armhf or powerpc where zerovm is the default
<tdaitx> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<cyphermox> no doko?
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> - Monday off
<cyphermox> - shim-review: Cumulus
<cyphermox> - review/discuss grub-efi cohabitation with grub-pc
<cyphermox> - qemu / libvirt / edk2 work to ship preloaded MS certs and SecureBoot enabled
<cyphermox> - netplan still blocked due to pandoc
<cyphermox> - verifying SRUs: shim-signed, initramfs-tools
<cyphermox> - systemd: reworking Shutdown= code
<cyphermox> (done)
<doko> sorry
<Odd_Bloke> * Cloud images vanguard for the coming week
<Odd_Bloke> * Fixed hg-git tests in cosmic to help unblock migrations
<Odd_Bloke> * Mostly small bits and pieces otherwise
<cpaelzer> FYI there was a qemu-efi-secureboot rejected in #ubuntu-release this morning - guess that is related cyphermox?
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<cyphermox> cpaelzer: it is
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * released unattended-upgrades 1.3 fixing several regressions
<rbalint> * uploaded unattended-upgrades bionic SRU fixing several regressions
<rbalint> * uploads through Debian: meld
<rbalint> * discussions about locking in dpkg/apt/u-u/etc.
<rbalint> * discussions about WSL support in Ubuntupa
<rbalint> * things i can't talk about
<rbalint> (done)
<doko> - gcc-5 security update for xenial
<doko> - python 3.6.6 and 3.7.0 release candidates
<doko> - ftbfs-report patches for combined archive reports, and a never built status
<doko> - transitions, openmpi ready, r-base nearly ready, now reset again with new debian import
<doko>   THIS work eats too much time
<doko>   and some minor transitions ...
<doko> - archive work, remove nbs binaries in proposed
<doko> - openjdk meeting
<doko> (done)
<juliank> * {,python-}apt work:
<juliank>   - Explained frontend locking implications for apt clients
<juliank>   - Made python-apt use CI on salsa, and build API documentation on https://apt-team.pages.debian.net/python-apt/
<juliank>   - Uploaded new apt snapshot to cosmic
<juliank>   - Working on locking fixes for python-apt for unattended-upgrades
<juliank>   - A magical new solver using pseudo-boolean optimization https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt-solver-kalel/
<juliank> * Fixed update-notifier bug 1641671 (xenial,artful,bionic); and verified it
<ubottu> bug 1641671 in One Hundred Papercuts "Cronjob /etc/cron.daily/update-notifier-common sends too many e-mail messages" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641671
<juliank> * Fixed networkd-dispatcher bug 1772137 (bionic, cosmic)
<ubottu> bug 1772137 in networkd-dispatcher (Ubuntu Bionic) "networkd-dispatcher starts too late to take effect on boot" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1772137
<juliank> * Further work on grub secure boot policy check (getting to the finish line)
<juliank> * Setup yubikey
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> xnox:
<xnox> is it
<rcj> o/
<juliank> yes
<xnox> fixed python-oslo.vmware autopkgtest
<xnox> finished finalrd implementation; sent to juliank for review; then will publish it to the team / publically
<xnox> https://git.launchpad.net/finalrd/tree/finalrd.pod
<xnox> preparing systemd sru for nvidia DRM & tmpfiles issues
<xnox> done
<slangasek> xnox: sweet :)
<slangasek> doko:
<juliank> slangasek: he already did
<slangasek> oh
<gaughen> slangasek, doko already went. He even shouted "THIS"
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> yes and I even read it, but I didn't clear the flag in my brain NEVERMIND
<slangasek> ok, any questions on status or about my sanity?
<cyphermox> is it the same issue as your browser?
<gaughen> ha
<cyphermox> no Qs.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything to discuss?
<bdmurray> bug 1574351
<gaughen> oh yes
<ubottu> bug 1574351 in perl (Ubuntu) "package libperl5.22 5.22.1-9 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite shared '/usr/share/doc/libperl5.22/changelog.Debian.gz', which is different from other instances of package libperl5.22:i386" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574351
<bdmurray> Its been around for a bit and seems to still be an issue on bionic
<juliank> eww
<slangasek> interesting
<slangasek> people are installing !amd64 libperl?
<bdmurray> I thought I saw a bug about installing some printer drivers maybe.
<slangasek> ah
<slangasek> so that's "easy", just requires fixing the package build so that the changelog is compressed reproducibly
<bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/perl/+bug/1770682
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574351 in perl (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1770682 package libperl5.22 5.22.1-9 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite shared '/usr/share/doc/libperl5.22/changelog.Debian.gz', which is different from other instances of package libperl5.22:i386" [High,Confirmed]
<slangasek> +1, worth fixing
<bdmurray> Well that wasn't helpful. "Scanner driver failed to install"
 * juliank looks at libperl in cosmic
<juliank> it's broken too
<bdmurray> okay, I'll card it for 18.04.1. What queue should it go in?
<slangasek> bdmurray: gen distro
<slangasek> bdmurray: I wouldn't consider it 18.04.1-critical however, if it's been outstanding for this long
<bdmurray> ack
<rcj> bug 1775219 bdmurray? I don't think the hack is appropriate so I'm looking to know if an error message change could be made.
<ubottu> bug 1775219 in apport (Ubuntu) "incorrectly reports package as unsupported if apt cache is empty" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1775219
<bdmurray> rcj: for what release?
<bdmurray> rcj: an error message change seems reasonable
<rcj> cosmic to start but I'd hope for an SRU back to bionic and xenial.  All the cloud images clear out the package lists to save space so they're all affected until first refresh
<rcj> bdmurray: thx
<rcj> bug 1775291 (forgot to add coreutils until today)
<ubottu> bug 1775291 in coreutils (Ubuntu) "'df /dev/sda1' (rootfs) returns result for /dev on gce minimal images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1775291
<bdmurray> rcj: And an apt update isn't run after install? I think a ubiquity install does an update on first boot.
<rcj> bdmurray: apt update isn't run until first unattended upgrade window (otherwise we'd hammer cloud mirrors when people spin up many VMs)
<bdmurray> rcj: okay, fair enough.
<rcj> bug 1775291 (forgot to add coreutils until today)  This is an oddity seen on minimal images slangasek
<ubottu> bug 1775291 in coreutils (Ubuntu) "'df /dev/sda1' (rootfs) returns result for /dev on gce minimal images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1775291
<bdmurray> rcj: What are you looking for there?
<slangasek> rcj: is that because we're booting initramfsless?
<slangasek> right, description confirms
<slangasek> so, that's cool
<bdmurray> xnox: Could you have a look at bug 1767299.
<ubottu> bug 1767299 in partman-auto (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 18.04 Installer creates swap partition too small" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1767299
<rcj> we've worked around it in our testing but it's odd behavior.  df says / is /dev/root but mount still says /dev/sda1.
<slangasek> yeah
<rcj> So when you 'df /dev/sda1' it gives you /dev
<slangasek> that's a tough one
<rcj> (closest match)
<slangasek> so, I guess we should dig into it, we don't want initramfsless cloud images to have broken df behavior
<rcj> yeah, and I was surprised 1) by the change in behavior and 2) by the mount/df difference
<slangasek> I'm not sure if coreutils is the right way to fix it
<gaughen> slangasek, is it a release blocker?
<slangasek> I wouldn't say so
<gaughen> k
<rcj> sorry, I found it with 'df' so I opened on coreutils.  But brought it up here because I'm not sure where it should go.
<slangasek> rcj: yeah, reasonable place to start
<slangasek> so, probably worth taking into the backlog
<slangasek> any other bugs?
<bdmurray> bug 1771845
<ubottu> bug 1771845 in grub-installer (Ubuntu) "grub-installer raid handling code missing nvme from sed filter" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1771845
<bdmurray> cyphermox: ^^
<bdmurray> Okay, I'll create a card for that for 18.04.1
<slangasek> oh is that the root cause? neat
<bdmurray> xnox: bug 1651818 is assigned to you
<ubottu> bug 1651818 in cryptsetup (Ubuntu) "busybox-initramfs needs different compile options to work with cryptroot-unlock" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1651818
<bdmurray> someone also added a patch to that fwiw
<slangasek> I've been aware of that bug and it warrants fixing, but also AFAIK it doesn't impact any configurations that you arrive at via our installer?
<bdmurray> Ah, I see xnox's comment, #3, about that now.
<bdmurray> So let's skip that one.
<bdmurray> doko: are you aware of bug 1663280?
<ubottu> bug 1663280 in glibc (Ubuntu Zesty) "Serious performance degradation of math functions" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1663280
<bdmurray> let's have infinity take a look at that one
<bdmurray> slangasek: that's all I have
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<bdmurray> I'll be out tomorrow
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 21 15:45:27 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-06-21-15.04.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<tribaal> see you all around :)
<slangasek> tribaal: bye :)
<gaughen> bye tribaal!
<tribaal> bye gaughen!
<chiluk> Hey hey community Council folks..  https://community.ubuntu.com/t/community-council-meeting-agendas-schedule/708
<wxl> chiluk: yeah we've had some difficulties getting together and we've been discussing alternative methodologies but have not resolved it yet. is there a particular concern you have?
<chiluk> Nope.. just saw it on my calendar, and thought I'd see what was going on.
<wxl> chiluk: yeah i'll run something up the flagpole again. thanks for keeping watch! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-06-17
<slashd> o/
<sil2100> o/
<teward> i know rbasak is around
<rbasak> o/
<sil2100> o/
<slashd> I wish I could chair today, it's been a while, but I'm afraid I might be disrupted from time to time. otherwise I would have done it today.
<rbasak> I can do it.
<slashd> but will be there to vote
<cyphermox> o/
<teward> *waves*
<sil2100> We have quorum \o/
<rbasak> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 17 19:01:29 2019 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> rbasak: thanks!
<slashd> rbasak, thanks
<cyphermox> rbasak: thanks.
<rbasak> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<rbasak> tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know (carried over)
<rbasak> slashd to follow up on the APAC Ubuntu community coverage (carried over)
<rbasak> Check if slashd announced acheronuk's successful MOTU application everywhere where needed (carried over) (done)
<rbasak> sil2100 to add fossfreedom_ to the ubuntu-budgie packageset (done)
<rbasak> sil2100 to send announcements of fossfreedom's successful application (done)
<rbasak> Ah, three of those are done.
<rbasak> tsimonq2:, slashd: any updates on the remaining two please?
<slashd> I would add the uncomplete vote of ddstreet
<slashd> acheronuk, AFAIK it's done, i'll double check been a while
<slashd> APAC still waiting for my contact to ping me to find a good time
<rbasak> #action slashd to follow up on the APAC Ubuntu community coverage (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to follow up on the APAC Ubuntu community coverage (carried over)
<rbasak> Sounds like tsimonq2 wasn't sure he could make it, so I'll carry over his too.
<sil2100> +1
<rbasak> #action tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know (carried over)
<rbasak> slashd: as we have quorum, perhaps we can vote on ddstreet here directly, as the email thread is already at the votes stage?
<slashd> rbasak, sound good to me
<rbasak> #topic Follow up on the ubuntustudio packageset upload permissions for Rosco2
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Follow up on the ubuntustudio packageset upload permissions for Rosco2
<rbasak> What needed doing here?
<slashd> just to vote, I think we passed the question period on the ML thread
<cyphermox> shouldn't we follow up on the thread?
<slashd> sorry thought you were taking about ddstreet ^^
<rbasak> cyphermox: we've been failing on following up on the thread, and we are quorate today. I think we should just vote.
<rbasak> The email thread is already past the questions stage.
<sil2100> rbasak: hm, I don't think anything needs doing here?
<sil2100> rbasak: (I mean the Rosco2 thing)
<rbasak> sil2100: I'm not sure. I was just trying to figure out when that item got added.
<cyphermox> fait enough
<rbasak> sil2100: looks like it was you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda?action=diff&rev1=753&rev2=754 :)
<sil2100> rbasak: uh oh!
<slashd> rbasak, for acheronuk I confirmed I have done everything ( I just double-checked)
<rbasak> I propose that we drop it, but that we email him to be sure we aren't dropping something.
<sil2100> rbasak: I think it's all done and we missed listing it on previous meetings because I made it a separate section instead of an action item ;p
<rbasak> slashd: acheronuk> thanks!
<sil2100> rbasak: sorry about that
<rbasak> sil2100: Rosco2> do you want to check with him or are you happy it's all done?
<sil2100> rbasak: I'll check with him just to be sure ;)
<rbasak> Thank you!
<rbasak> #action sil2100 to check with Rosco2 that ubuntustudio packageset upload permission changes are all complete
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to check with Rosco2 that ubuntustudio packageset upload permission changes are all complete
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<rbasak> #subtopic ddstreet
<rbasak> I propose to do this one first, because we weren't quorate last time, so FIFO.
<cyphermox> yup
<rbasak> Is there any further discussion needed before I start the vote?
<rbasak> (eg. points of order)
<rbasak> #vote Approve ddstreet's core dev application
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve ddstreet's core dev application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<slashd> +1 for me as previously stated in the ML thread
<meetingology> +1 for me as previously stated in the ML thread received from slashd
<teward> err:stalled?
<teward> (sorry making sure IRC didn't die on me here...)
<cyphermox> no, not stalled.
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<teward> cyphermox: ack.  looks like my ZNC lagged fierce and everything was literally dead then flooded back :)
<sil2100> +1 there are a few places where Dan could get more experience and a few places where improvement is needed (more coordination, agreement), but I'm confident that he'll be able to improve in these areas with the help of other ubuntu engineers
<meetingology> +1 there are a few places where Dan could get more experience and a few places where improvement is needed (more coordination, agreement), but I'm confident that he'll be able to improve in these areas with the help of other ubuntu engineers received from sil2100
<rbasak> So, my rationale first, since it's a bit long.
<rbasak> Given previous (including recent) communications I've seen between ddstreet and other Ubuntu developers, my sole reservation is that he doesn't always seem to be on the same page as others wrt. consensus. What I don't want to see are uploads for anything other core devs consider contentious without discussion first.
<rbasak> I've seen some things I like on this recently though. I get the impression he is taking this feedback on board.
<rbasak> So I am erring on giving him the benefit of the doubt, but just ask that he keep this in mind before every upload (please don't upload if others have raised doubts, or would raise doubts if asked, without a conclusive discussion)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve ddstreet's core dev application
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> Congrats ddstreet!
<sil2100> \o/
<sil2100> ddstreet: congrats!
<slashd> congrat \o/ ddstreet
<rbasak> Can someone volunteer to 1) do the ACL changes; and 2) announce, please?
<slashd> rbasak, will do
<sil2100> slashd: you want to take the action item of adding your team-mate to the team? ;)
<slashd> yep ^
<rbasak> slashd: thanks!
<rbasak> slashd: reminder: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_a_successful_application
<rbasak> #action slashd to make ACL changes for ddstreet's successful core dev application
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to make ACL changes for ddstreet's successful core dev application
<rbasak> #action slashd to announce ddstreet's successful core dev application
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to announce ddstreet's successful core dev application
 * rbasak fumbles with the agenda
<rbasak> #subtopic teward
<teward> o/
<rbasak> teward: hello! Please could you introduce yourself, and then we'll see if anyone has questions.
<rbasak> teward: and thank you for waiting!
<teward> My name is Thomas Ward, I've been using Ubuntu since 2009, and been working heavy with nginx support with the support of the Ubuntu Server Team since 2014.  I've had PPU rights for that since 2014 as well.  I've been around for a while, many of you have interacted with me before, and look forward to continuing to contribute more to Ubuntu!  CoreDev will allow me to bypass many of the sponsorship hurdles I've hit for some of my more 'drive by'
<teward> bug fixes I've done in recent times across the archive, and I thank you all for considering my application!
<teward> bleh longmessage is long.
<teward> If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask :)
<rbasak> Questions for teward please?
<rbasak> I have none - note that I have endorsed his application, and I have been in regular communication with him for years.
<sil2100> teward: I have a question, one of my 'regular ones' ;)
<teward> And I should point out that even with CoreDev, I always look for a second set of eyes on anything that's not straightforward :)
<teward> sil2100: go ahead :)
<teward> s/I always look/I will always look/
<sil2100> teward: in your Ubuntu work so far, did you work with update_excuses and update_output for packages that you had sponsored?
<sil2100> *have had sponsored
<sil2100> (English is hard)
<teward> sil2100: yes, it is hard.  I have worked with update_excuses a lot, yes, it's my primary go-to when looking for autopkgtest output.
<teward> I haven't looked on a regular basis on update_output but do look there as well.  It's a littel harder to read so I always have to take extra time when reading through update_output
<teward> update_excuses HAS, however, helped me to catch a few broken autopkgtests unrelated to things I"ve had sponsored up (or uploaded myself such as nginx) and then work through fixing it.  Some autopkgtest failures looked to be errant failures due to cloud infra problems that Canonical IS had to look into though
<sil2100> teward: let's say you have a package blocked in -proposed, then what info could update_output give you that won't be visible in output_excuses?
<teward> sil2100: to clarify, s/output_excuses/update_excluses/ ?
<teward> before I answer :)
<teward> update_excuses*
 * teward kicks his keyboard
<sil2100> Argh
<sil2100> I think my head is overheated already
<sil2100> Yeah, I meant update_excuses instead of output_excuses
<sil2100> ;)
<teward> 'tis what I thought but I want to clarify before answering ;)
<teward> sil2100: from my knowledge, update_output can provide more details on installability.  Namely, if a package is released to the release pocket, it can help to ID whether other packages are now uninstallable, as well as the number of problems introduced by a package being released.  Take for example the current ZNC item in the current update_output.txt.  There's no `got` line there, but a `got` line there could help indicate the number of
<teward> uninstallable packages or problems introduced with a package being released
<teward> Further on a per arch basis, it can help to show specific packages that now are breakable and cannot be installed by a package being uploaded
<teward> Currently for ZNC there's some problems, but notably for s390x znc-backlog can't install
<teward> Generally speaking though the update_output will help to show what else might break when introducing a package into the target release pocket for a package
<teward> which is primarily the main reason I've used it for
<teward> (there's still some bits of this output mind you I don't immediately remember what it reflects, however I regularly inquire on such confusion on the output.)
<teward> update_excuses does show cases such as autopkgtest breakages though
<teward> which isn't reflected in update_output
<sil2100> teward: thanks, that's what I wanted to hear
<rbasak> Any other questions for teward?
<teward> (whereas update_output provides more detailed data than the update_excuses shows on installability and package breakages)
<teward> sil2100: :)
<teward> sil2100: as for your overheated head... here's a glass of water :)
<rbasak> #vote Approve teward's core dev application
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve teward's core dev application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<sil2100> teward: ok, another question, this time regarding your application! I guess I only see one endorsement (or maybe two, because Seth's comment seems like an endorsement)
<rbasak> Oh, sorry.
<rbasak> Hold on the vote and let's answer sil2100's question first.
<sarnold> my comment is indeed meant as an endorsement, but as I don't have core-dev myself, it felt more appropriate to just leave a comment
<sil2100> teward: there's no hard requirement on the number, but we usually expect around 3 to get a good idea of how a person is 'seen' by other developers
<sil2100> teward: is there any reason your application didn't get any additional written endorsements? ;)
<teward> sil2100: part of that would be that I had reached out to other developers who HAD sponsored my stuff in the past but got no reply back in emails, and in other cases a couple of people had said they would and didn't get around to it by the time I filed the application.
<rbasak> Consider my endorsement a _strong_ one, please :)
<teward> note that the lack of written endorsements is less an inaction of trying to get them, but more inaction/delays with those I had reached out to
<rbasak> I forgot to mention it in my endorsement, but there's also the thread in ubuntu-devel@ on backports which is relevant I think.
<sil2100> ;)
<teward> most of my latest sponsored items have been people just getting to it in the queues or me prodding heavily
<sil2100> teward: ACK
<sil2100> Ok, I think I'm ready to vote
<rbasak> OK.
<rbasak> Let's vote!
<rbasak> The vote is already active in meetingology from above, so please go ahead.
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<sil2100> +1 but please moar uploads
<meetingology> +1 but please moar uploads received from sil2100
<slashd> +1 I wish I could see more recent activity, but base on teward history, proven skills and rbasak strong opinion about you, I'll feel confident.
<meetingology> +1 I wish I could see more recent activity, but base on teward history, proven skills and rbasak strong opinion about you, I'll feel confident. received from slashd
<sil2100> Uploads aren't most important, but uploads is the reason one wants to get core-dev!
<teward> I can guarantee there will be more uploads :)
<sil2100> s/is/are
<sil2100> And we had one vote from tsimonq2 in case he wouldn't be able to make it
<rbasak> Ah yes, I forgot.
<rbasak> tsimonq2 also voted +1
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve teward's core dev application
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> teward: congrats!
<slashd> congrats teward \o/
<teward> thank you!  :)
<rbasak> Can someone volunteer to do teward's announcement and ACL changes please?
<teward> and thank you again for taking the time to consider my application!  :D
<sil2100> rbasak: let me take that
<Eickmeyer> \o/
<rbasak> #action sil2100 to make ACL changes for teward's successful core dev application
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to make ACL changes for teward's successful core dev application
<rbasak> #action sil2100 to announce teward's successful core dev application
<rbasak> Thanks!
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to announce teward's successful core dev application
<rbasak> #topic Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
<rbasak> I don't see any
<rbasak> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<rbasak> Please raise any other topics now.
<sil2100> None from me, I guess
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 17 19:57:42 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-06-17-19.01.moin.txt
<rbasak> Thanks all!
<rbasak> And congrats to the new recruits :)
<slashd> thanks rbasak for chairing
<teward> thanks to all on the DMB for their time and support!  :D
<rbasak> sil2100, slashd: one thought as I write up the actions
<rbasak> Do you want to combine your announcement?
<rbasak> Then one of you could pass your action for the announcement to the other.
<rbasak> Anyway, I'll leave it to you.
<sil2100> Eeek
<sil2100> Too late
<sil2100> I just sent out mine...
<rbasak> np :)
<slashd> too late ;)
<slashd> I already did it
<slashd> and sil2100 too apparently
<sil2100> Anyway, rbasak thanks for chairing!
<teward> thanks again, rbasak, sil2100, slashd, cyphermox, and tsimonq2 who I know is on Telegram but not IRC right now./
<teward> and thank you for accepting my application :)
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-06-18
<cyphermox> cpaelzer: doko: didrocks: MIR team meeting?
<cyphermox> (except really I'm busy there is a phtograph here)
<doko> I don't see anything pending ... but maybe I'm waiting for cpaelzer's mailman3 cleanup ...
<didrocks> nothing for me either
<doko> ok, that's how these meetings should be ;)
<cpaelzer> I was hogged in a meeting
<cpaelzer> hi cyphermox and others
<cpaelzer> I had nothing current to add anyway, but read your talk
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-06-20
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<waveform> \o
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 20 15:02:11 2019 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
 * vorlon waves
<cyphermox> vorlon doko sil2100 mwhudson bdmurray infinity xnox cyphermox tdaitx juliank rbalint waveform
<vorlon> oh noes
<rbalint> vorlon noes
<cyphermox> doko nopes?
<vorlon> cyphermox: come back to me
<cyphermox> yup
<cyphermox> doko:
<juliank> o/
<cyphermox> guess he might have noped
<bdmurray> sil2100 is on a holiday
<cyphermox> who'se there?
<bdmurray> I'm here
<cyphermox> bdmurray: your turn then
<bdmurray> oh yess!
<vorlon> cyphermox: I can go whenever
<bdmurray> worked with webops to resolve issues w/ cassandra and units connecting
<bdmurray> reviewed sil2100's MP regarding additional sru removal suggestions
<bdmurray> reviewed, merged, uploaded deb2snap DistUpgradeQuirk improvement (LP: #1831933)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1831933 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Disco) "do-release-upgrade tries to install snaps even if it knows it can't reach the snapstore" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831933
<bdmurray> reviewed, merged, uploaded release version translation fix (LP: #1727472)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1727472 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Eoan) "[RFE] Automatically update the Ubuntu version string in ubuntu-release-upgrader" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1727472
<bdmurray> discussed with mvo c-n-f-extractor mlocate / locate change
<bdmurray> tested dropping of u-r-u's obsolete kernel removal code (LP: #1828100)
<bdmurray> investigation into having u-r-u understand architectures in meta-release
<bdmurray> uploaded eoan fixes for LP: #1829968, LP: #1824005
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1828100 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Eoan) "KernelRemoval section of DistUpgrade.cfg shouldn't require manual updating" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1828100
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1829968 in base-files (Ubuntu Bionic) "motd [on at least some instances] does not auto-update daily" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1829968
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1824005 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Eoan) "installing / refreshing snap impossible to translate" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1824005
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> vorlon: how about now?
<vorlon>  * announced the dropping of i386; fielding feedback
<vorlon>  * meeting to confirm plans around OVS support in netplan
<vorlon>  * discussions around difficult fwupd SRU to bionic
<vorlon>  * netplan schema introspection: spec review/agreement
<vorlon>  * planning for UC20 sprint next week
<vorlon>  * upcoming:
<vorlon>   * off tomorrow
<vorlon>   * in London next week
<vorlon> (done)
<cyphermox> xnox:
<xnox> * secureboot signed s390-tools migrated
<xnox> * fix s390-tools ftbfs (submitted upstream too)
<xnox> * working on staruprd for uc20
<xnox> * working on core20 snap being able to build in lp/eoan
<xnox> * working on multipath -part* vs s390x and encrypted systems
<xnox> * more subiquity/casper fun for s390x
<xnox> * UC20 sprint next week
<xnox> (done)
<cyphermox> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> MIR review: finishing probert review
<cyphermox> investigating edk2/ovmf black screen with secboot.fd firmware
<xnox> StartUpRD
<cyphermox> netplan specs
<cyphermox> finishing grub2 merge
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> tdaitx:
<cyphermox> rbalint:
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * updated kerneloops with new upstream snapshot and few fixes in Debian
<rbalint> * filed and provided patch for https://bugs.debian.org/930654
<ubottu> Debian bug 930654 in base-files "base-files: mesg: ttyname failed: No such device" [Normal,Open]
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * meetings and discussions
<rbalint> (done)
<cyphermox> waveform:
<waveform> * off on Monday
<waveform> * working on PR for pi3-gadget to use flash-kernel's new RPi bootscript; may require SRU of flash-kernel (it's currently using bionic as a package source)
<waveform> * dissected core's u-boot environment (several versions) to determine what is specific to it, and whether it's feasible to have a single bootscript for core+classic (it is, but we need some extra bits to support their kernel params and splash screen)
<waveform> * checked Core on CM3+; it doesn't work - firmware out of date, commit in the works
<waveform> * replicated bluetooth issues on 3B+, haven't found time to dig into why yet
<waveform> * responded to comments on pi image building instructions
<waveform> (done)
<cyphermox> thanks!
<cyphermox> #topic Release incoming bugs (eoan)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (eoan)
<cyphermox> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> So I see a bunch of ftbfs bugs in there but I thought we'd said they go straight to cards
<bdmurray> vorlon: ^^
<vorlon> ack, I'll card 'em now
<bdmurray> Well it'd be nice if that step got done with the bug filing
<bdmurray> bug 1832651
<ubottu> bug 1832651 in systemd (Ubuntu) "jackdbus fails to start: cannot allocate memory" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1832651
<rbalint> bdmurray, i think we just card the ftbfs and pick them, but not at the meeting
<bdmurray> rbalint: my point was when the ftbfs bug is filed a card should also be created
<bdmurray> xnox: that's a systemd bug and I think there's an upstream fix
<xnox> ok
<xnox> bdmurray:  target
<bdmurray> so all the undecided ones are ftbfs
<cyphermox> grub2 is irrelevant, it's not going to be ftbfs when I'm done with it.
<vorlon> indeed
<cyphermox> actually, it is right now for me (I had exactly those issues), but that's what I'm fixing atm
<cyphermox> (claiming)
<vorlon> I'll fix up the rest
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I forget what did we say about bug 1706859?
<ubottu> bug 1706859 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Bionic) "Auto-selected keyboard layout no longer matches chosen region on "Where are you" page" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1706859
<cyphermox> I think I said I was going to test it, figure out if it's indeed what I think, picking language in ubiquity screens vs. in gfxboot
<cyphermox> (so, preseeding)
<bdmurray> that sounds familiar
<bdmurray> so we leave that pending testing
<bdmurray> bug 1783597 has a question about revising minimum installation space for preinstalled snaps
<ubottu> bug 1783597 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "The disk-space-needed estimate doesn't account for the snaps" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1783597
<cyphermox> yeah
<cyphermox> that one was because there's an open question whether we should also revisit minimum space hints in installers
<bdmurray> vorlon: Do you think we should just bump the space needed or maybe check to see if we should?
<bdmurray> e.g. do a minimum install and see what happens
<vorlon> probably the latter
<bdmurray> okay, I'll test that
<bdmurray> I think that's good for rls-ee bugs
<cyphermox> #topic Release incoming bugs (bionic)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (bionic)
<cyphermox> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> one bug in that list
<rbalint> how can we tell the needed space for snaps in advance when there are debs pulling in snaps in postinst?
<vorlon> that's not how our images should be configured; snaps should be getting directly seeded
<juliank> should we add an extra fields to debs?
<rbalint> juliank, that could work
<rbalint> like extra space needed for the package
<juliank> XB-Extra-Install-Size: <kb>
<rbalint> this could also be useful for other dynamic data
<juliank> It might also be a useful estimate for packages that might create huge files
<juliank> or flash installer or stuff
<rbalint> :-D
<rbalint> juliank, seems we agree :-)
<juliank> ack
 * juliank speaks with his crazy APT maintainer hat
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1509717
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1509717 in lvm2 (Ubuntu) "Wily LVM-RAID1 â md: personality for level 1 is not loaded" [High,In progress]
<bdmurray> So old
<cyphermox> ^ bb incoming bug
<gaughen> I see it's assigned to apw
<gaughen> is this something foundations should look to address?  do we agree that now we have comment #7 should we do it?
<cyphermox> so; tracking or not?
<gaughen> so xnox it's an sru of lvm2?
<cyphermox> xnox: are you volunteering for it?
<xnox> cyphermox:  no, enotime
<xnox> i can do it in august
<cyphermox> ack
<vorlon> but it's a small change
<vorlon> it's just a little wafer
<bdmurray> so let's track and card that then
<vorlon> ok I'll do
<bdmurray> and unassign Andy
<cyphermox> ok; moving on then
<cyphermox> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<xnox> vorlon:  btw, should i sru openssl postinst fix for people who purged debconf database?
<cyphermox> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<xnox> vorlon:  or just push openssl to security, and let everyone explode?!
<vorlon> xnox: you mean fix the .templates?
<vorlon> there is no postinst change required
<gaughen> xnox, vorlon let's chat more about this one when we get to AOB
<vorlon> and yes it should be fixed
<gaughen> apt is blocked on apt
<gaughen> juliank is on it
<juliank> upstream apt maintainer me will be doing a new release soon
<juliank> also python-apt update is needed, see https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/apt.html
<juliank> also could someone remove debian-xcontrol, aptsh, and goplay from eoan? thanks!
<juliank> (I filed bugs they are listed in #u-release somewhere)
<cyphermox> ok; that's it then?
<cyphermox> #topic Chair selection for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Chair selection for next meeting
<cyphermox> who's the victim?
<bdmurray> Is AOB after chair?
<cyphermox> yes
<rbalint> cyphermox, shuf? :-)
<cyphermox> I nominate sil2100 because he's not here to defend himself?
<cyphermox> (that's what I did, shuf)
<juliank> +1
<bdmurray> +1
<xnox> seconded
<rbalint> +seconded
<cyphermox> shuf is going to be fair but not fun though; if you happen to be unlucky
<cyphermox> ok, sil2100 is next chair, or we'll figure out something
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<juliank> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
<cyphermox> that's a good song!
<bdmurray> cyphermox: You are out on Monday right?
<cyphermox> yes, I'm out for the next two Mondays
<juliank> JFTR: I'm not here - I'm out today and tomorrow
<juliank> All I did today was wash my bicycle
<cyphermox> bdmurray: but, hey, Mondays are the worst
<cyphermox> and now I want lasagna
<cyphermox> any other other business?
<juliank> end of aob
<vorlon> nothing else here
<cyphermox> winnitude!
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 20 15:50:02 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-06-20-15.02.moin.txt
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> thanks everyone!
<vorlon> thanks!
<gaughen> thank you cyphermox!
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-15
<slashd> o/
<rafaeldtinoco> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rafaeldtinoco> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 15 18:59:58 2020 UTC.  The chair is rafaeldtinoco. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<ddstreet> o/
<rafaeldtinoco> #chair rafaeldtinoco
<meetingology> Current chairs: rafaeldtinoco
<rafaeldtinoco> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: should i start with your items ?
<ddstreet> sure, i think most are done
<rafaeldtinoco> alright
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet follow up on packageset owning team for ubuntu-mate (carried over)
<ddstreet> done, team's created and pkgset is moved over to using it
<rafaeldtinoco> I have a question regarding the team creations to the end
<rafaeldtinoco> moving on
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet to handle PPU rights of tux{math,paint,type},x11vnc for alkisg ahead of edubuntu packageset removal in the future
<ddstreet> done
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet send out announcement for oSoMoN addition to mozilla packageset (rolled over)
<ddstreet> yep sent, done
<rafaeldtinoco> ok.. now my stuff
<ddstreet> one addition first
<rafaeldtinoco> sure
<ddstreet> briefly
<ddstreet> as alkisg should now have all the upload rights needed from the edubuntu pkgset, we should add a action item to remove it, unless there is any other reason for keeping it
<rafaeldtinoco> what happened to the seeds, do u know ?
<rafaeldtinoco> i can add filters to pkgset scripts, but they are basically creating the sets coming from existing seeds
<ddstreet> no, i haven't looked at it other than adding alkisg's upload pkgs
<rafaeldtinoco> ok.. let me add an action to myself here
<rbasak> The packageset scripts have a list of autogenerated packagesets, don't they?
<rafaeldtinoco> rbasak: yep, I can simply filter out edubuntu
<rafaeldtinoco> im wondering about the seeds existance
<rafaeldtinoco> should we care ?
<rbasak> I thought was an inclusion list rather than an exclusion list?
<rafaeldtinoco> its a shell script with an array currently
<rbasak> But yeah, we could be good citizens and remove the seed too
<rafaeldtinoco> and then germinate runs through all generated files
<rafaeldtinoco> ok, for the seed removal we will need an aa
<rafaeldtinoco> #action rafaeldtinoco to check edubuntu seed <-> pkgset relationship (generation) and if edubuntu pkgsets can be dropped
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to check edubuntu seed <-> pkgset relationship (generation) and if edubuntu pkgsets can be dropped
<ddstreet> and we should probably manually remove edubuntu from groovy, right?  but leave it untouched from focal and earlier?
<rbasak> That might be more of a release team or AA thing, yeah
<rafaeldtinoco> if you all agree ^
<rbasak> Presumably the image generation machinery needs disconnecting if it isn't already
<rbasak> +1
<rafaeldtinoco> hum. true
<ddstreet> +1
<rafaeldtinoco> it will be a good exercise to understand in deep the correlation
<rbasak> Yes - I'd love to learn from you when you're done figuring it out :)
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: yes (for the groovy removal part)
<rafaeldtinoco> yep the pkgsets changes emails are about the re-start once im done
<rafaeldtinoco> let me move to my items
<rafaeldtinoco> and we can catch up after
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to follow up with TB / packageset tooling on ubuntu-studio-uploaders being added to ubuntustudio packageset for upload rights
<rafaeldtinoco> >  Archive Upload Rights for ubuntu-studio-uploaders: archive 'primary', package set 'ubuntustudio' in groovy
<rafaeldtinoco> done
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to handle request "Adding lubuntu-update-notifier to the Lubuntu package set" (carried over)
<rafaeldtinoco> > Archive Upload Rights for lubuntu-dev: archive 'primary', package set 'lubuntu' in groovy
<rafaeldtinoco> done
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to complete documentation on existing packageset tooling, and discuss the current (large) delta in the packagesets that need adjusted (rolled over)
<rafaeldtinoco> > Work in progress, move to long term please.
<rafaeldtinoco> #action rafaeldtinoco to move pkgset tooling documentation to long term
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to move pkgset tooling documentation to long term
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to handle getting gnome-shell into ubuntu desktop exceptions list
<rafaeldtinoco> > Archive Upload Rights for ubuntu-desktop: archive 'primary', package set 'ubuntu-desktop' in groovy
<rafaeldtinoco> done
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to handle "Refresh the packagesets" mailing list item (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001486.html)
<rafaeldtinoco> done ^
<rafaeldtinoco> @ddstreet lets talk about this one after I finish my items
<rafaeldtinoco> per your previous email
<ddstreet> ack
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to look into mailing list item "Including yaru-theme in the ubuntu-desktop set" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001487.html)
<rafaeldtinoco> > Archive Upload Rights for ubuntu-desktop: archive 'primary', package set 'ubuntu-desktop' in groovy
<rafaeldtinoco> done
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to look into mailing list item "Include fprint packages in the ubuntu-desktop set" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001488.html)
<rafaeldtinoco> >    Add libfprint to exceptions for ubuntu-desktop pkgset
<rafaeldtinoco> committed
<rafaeldtinoco> > $ edit-acl add -S {groovy,focal,eoan,bionic} -s libfprint -P ubuntu-desktop -t upload
<rafaeldtinoco> done
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to handle "Packages to Remove from ubuntustudio packageset" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001497.html)
<rafaeldtinoco> > Done with the pkgset tool re-run for Groovy.
<rafaeldtinoco> rafaeldtinoco to handle "Applying packageset exceptions transitively" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001501.html)
<rafaeldtinoco> > Work in progress, move to long term please.
<rafaeldtinoco> #action rafaeldtinoco to document exceptions inclusion for DMB team
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to document exceptions inclusion for DMB team
<rafaeldtinoco> ok
<rafaeldtinoco> we have no applications today
<rafaeldtinoco> should we discuss anything here
<rafaeldtinoco> or at the end ?
<ddstreet> i guess just the mailing list items?
<rafaeldtinoco> #topic Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
<rafaeldtinoco> jackd2 for ubuntustudio packageset (Erich Eickmeyer)
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: ^
<ddstreet> rafaeldtinoco so, i don't really understand your email reply, but i think that's because i don't understand the tooling yet
<rafaeldtinoco> let me clarify for you then
<rafaeldtinoco> in single terms
<rafaeldtinoco> simple
<rafaeldtinoco> all pkgset inclusion/exclusion is done by the tooling.. for -devel only
<rafaeldtinoco> based on the existing seeds for the -devel version.
<rafaeldtinoco> if there is a pkg that is in the wrong pkgset (server instead of ubuntustudio, lets say)
<rafaeldtinoco> we have one file to be updated to mark it as an exception
<rafaeldtinoco> the tooling will be ran 2 or 3 times a week and send an email with the changes
<rafaeldtinoco> if no complains, the changes will be applied (to devel, based on seed, again)
<ddstreet> so, packages can only be in a single packageset?
<rafaeldtinoco> good question
<rafaeldtinoco> there are seeds that extend other seeds
<rbasak> AIUI, there are various edge cases that are handled poorly or have surprising results
<rafaeldtinoco> rbasak: +1 on what you said
<rafaeldtinoco> the logic is a big python batch with lots of edge cases
<rbasak> When we've tried to clean these up in the past, different DMB members have had different opinions on what the answer should be
<rafaeldtinoco> that part is the one I still have to work on
<ddstreet> so with this example, was it wrong for me to add jackd2 to ubuntustudio packageset?
<ddstreet> because that would break some other packageset?
<rafaeldtinoco> so with that example
<rbasak> I think for now we have to just keep adding exceptions case-by-case, and longer term it'd be nice to specify what the behaviour should be and then start adjusting the tooling to head towards that goal.
<rafaeldtinoco> for all previous versions .. doing by hand was correct (because we are not automatically updating those).
<rafaeldtinoco> for groovy .. the correct thing was to put it as an exception.. so instead of "server" it would be "ubuntustudio" in the next automatic generation changes
<rafaeldtinoco> an email would be sent to us saying that it was about to add the source package (jackd2) to ubuntustudio
<rafaeldtinoco> we would not complain and the changes would be committed
<rafaeldtinoco> rbasak: yes
<rafaeldtinoco> i want to put what we have "in production"
<rafaeldtinoco> and read the batch better
<rafaeldtinoco> and document what it does (with germinate output)
<rafaeldtinoco> and we can maybe discuss
<ddstreet> so our packageset list doesn't include 'hidden' packagesets like 'server'? https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/groovy/
<ddstreet> or do you mean 'ubuntu-server'
<rbasak> ddstreet: a consequence of manually adjusting an automatic packageset is that the next time the tooling is run, it might try to undo what you did, and then the person running it has to either go with it or code up an exception. Sometimes that's hard to do. The alternatives are to fix the tooling before making the adjustment, or to leave the uploader stuck without the packageset change. None of
<rbasak> these options are good :-/
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/H4GBJFYpNK/
<ddstreet> right, i was clear that my addition of jackd2 might be undone later, which is why i added the follow-up in the agenda to see if the seed update was all that's needed
<rafaeldtinoco> the jackd2 case I'll re-check
<rafaeldtinoco> actually
<rafaeldtinoco> I replied to you on that already
<rafaeldtinoco> right ?
<rafaeldtinoco> (just checking)
<rbasak> ddstreet: yeah and to be clear I'm fine with your approach.
<ddstreet> ok, maybe it's just me who doesn't see the link between the seeds and packagesets, i'm hoping to get a clearer picture once the tooling is documented...
<ddstreet> maybe i should just read the existing tooling now
<ddstreet> well, not *now*, but i mean before refactoring
<rafaeldtinoco> #action rafaeldtinoco add jackd2 as an exception (from ubuntu-server to audio-plugins perhaps)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco add jackd2 as an exception (from ubuntu-server to audio-plugins perhaps)
<rbasak> In the case that a package is only seeded from one place, it'll end up in the corresponding automatic packageset if there is one.
<rbasak> If it's seeded from more than one place, then the tooling has various logic to try and resolve it.
<rbasak> That's the extent of my knowledge :)
<rafaeldtinoco> yes
<rafaeldtinoco> rbasak: said correctly
<rbasak> (and when I say seed, I probably mean germinate - it doesn't matter whether the package is directly or indirectly seeded)
<rafaeldtinoco> there are some decisions made to see where the package will stay (and now it even reads the pkg dependencies)
<rafaeldtinoco> this part was made by iain in last change
<rafaeldtinoco> im about to enter that batch code now =)
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: let me document something "quick" for the next meeting
<rafaeldtinoco> "what to do instead of edit-acl for -devel"
<rafaeldtinoco> - guaranteeing seed is good
<rafaeldtinoco> - editing exceptions file and commiting
<rafaeldtinoco> - waiting pkgset auto re-generation
<rafaeldtinoco> type of thing
<ddstreet> +1 would definitely help me
<rafaeldtinoco> #action rafaeldtinoco to create, for now, a small "what-to-do" for pkgset changes in -devel
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to create, for now, a small "what-to-do" for pkgset changes in -devel
<rafaeldtinoco> #action rafaeldtinoco to put pkgset tooling to automatically update pkgsets (crontab)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to put pkgset tooling to automatically update pkgsets (crontab)
<rafaeldtinoco> ok
<rafaeldtinoco> that was it on my side for this #)
<Laney> YEAHHHHH
<rafaeldtinoco> =)
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: should I move on to TB bugs ?
<ddstreet> sure
<rafaeldtinoco> #topic Open TB bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Open TB bugs
<Laney> The idea is that flavour developers get to maintain their own stuff, btw, and 'their own stuff' is defined as the things in their flavour, i.e. what they seed
 * Laney runs
<rafaeldtinoco> Laney: +1 and dont go to far
<rafaeldtinoco> Packageset modification for ~ubuntu-mate-uploaders
<rafaeldtinoco> @ddstreet fix released ^
<ddstreet> yep
<ddstreet> though
<rafaeldtinoco> I have a question about this
<ddstreet> just for my own info, should the devel release have been done differently?
<ddstreet> (or any of it)
<rafaeldtinoco> devel should be done automatically (through seed updates -> pkgset changes OR by exceptions file being changed)
<rafaeldtinoco> ah for this change
<rafaeldtinoco> no
<rafaeldtinoco> sorry, this is just a permission change
<rafaeldtinoco> right ? from person to the team
<ddstreet> i think just uploader change is totally separate from the tooling, right?
<ddstreet> yep
<rafaeldtinoco> that is the exact question I have
<rafaeldtinoco> who defined we would start creating the teams ?
<rafaeldtinoco> i mean, is there anything we should follow ?
<rafaeldtinoco> (start creating dev groups with dmb permissions)
<ddstreet> there's some docs in the kb
<ddstreet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase
<rafaeldtinoco> because this change gives DMB the power to add/remove people from pkgsets
<ddstreet> yep
<rafaeldtinoco> should we do this ad-hoc like you're doing ?
<rafaeldtinoco> or try to guarantee all pkgsets have their respective devel group ?
 * rbasak doesn't follow
<rafaeldtinoco> rbasak: last changes coming from ddstreet
<rafaeldtinoco> like this
<rafaeldtinoco> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/1881666
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1881666 in ubuntu-community "[TB/DMB] Packageset modification for ~ubuntu-mate-uploaders" [Undecided,Fix released]
<ddstreet> changing the ubuntu-mate packageset uploader from an individual to a team
<ddstreet> note that this was the last 'flavor packageset' that *was not* set to team-uploader
<ddstreet> so now, all the flavor packagesets have team uploaders
<rafaeldtinoco> ah was it ?
<rbasak> The main thing is that we own the team, and nobody else apart from the DMB can change its membership
<rafaeldtinoco> ok.. so my question is dead
<rbasak> That seems correct
<ddstreet> rbasak so team members can't add other members?
<rbasak> There's also the stuff about ~ubuntu-dev vs. ~ubuntu-upladers which is covered in the docs I think?
<rbasak> Correct
<rbasak> That can be done with a delegation, but the team must explicitly have that
<ddstreet> we should make sure not to add anyone to an uploader team as 'administrator' though, right?
<rbasak> Right
<ddstreet> unless they have a delegation
<ddstreet> ack
<rafaeldtinoco> hum.
<rafaeldtinoco> that is new to me, will have to read
<ddstreet> rbasak rafaeldtinoco note that i did update the dmb kb with some clarification steps
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: tku, ill read it carefully
<ddstreet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase?action=diff&rev2=33&rev1=27
<ddstreet> or just check the 'info' tab to select diffs
<rafaeldtinoco> cool
<ddstreet> i think everything i added is correct, but please do correct anything as needed
<rbasak> Delegations documented here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation
<rafaeldtinoco> alright, got homework on this
<rafaeldtinoco> anything else on this discussion ?
<ddstreet> we should link the teamdelegation from our kb page
<ddstreet> if it isn't already
<rafaeldtinoco> #action rafaeldtinoco link teamdelegation from dmb kb page when reading ddstreet updates
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco link teamdelegation from dmb kb page when reading ddstreet updates
<rafaeldtinoco> ill do it since I'll read it again
<ddstreet> thanks
<rafaeldtinoco> #topic PPU addition for ~alkisg
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: PPU addition for ~alkisg
<rafaeldtinoco> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/1881653
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1881653 in ubuntu-community "[TB/DMB] PPU addition for ~alkisg" [Undecided,Fix released]
<rafaeldtinoco> fix released also ^
<ddstreet> yep
<rafaeldtinoco> do I have to check groovy for this one ?
<rafaeldtinoco> ah it was permission only
<rafaeldtinoco> nm
<rafaeldtinoco> ppu, ok moving on
<ddstreet> right, and next one is ppu also i think
<rafaeldtinoco> #topic PPU addition for ~rcj
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: PPU addition for ~rcj
<rafaeldtinoco> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/1866679
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1866679 in ubuntu-community "[TB/DMB] PPU addition for ~rcj" [Undecided,Fix released]
<rafaeldtinoco> fix released also
<ddstreet> yep, and while the tb bug doesn't list groovy, i am pretty sure he already had ppu for groovy
<rafaeldtinoco> cool
<rafaeldtinoco> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Select a chair for the next meeting
<rafaeldtinoco> rbasak: can u chair the next one ?
<rafaeldtinoco> you're the next on the list
<rafaeldtinoco> I can change it later if you can't
<rafaeldtinoco> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<rafaeldtinoco> ok..
<rafaeldtinoco> any other stuff to be discussed ?
<ddstreet> nothing else from me
<rbasak> rafaeldtinoco: sure
<rafaeldtinoco> rbasak: tku
<rafaeldtinoco> ok.. im calling it in ... 5
<rafaeldtinoco> 4
<rafaeldtinoco> 3
<slashd> Just as an fyi ... I'll need to catch up on the current todo, but I'm back after a few weeks of absence.
<rafaeldtinoco> slashd: welcome back =)
<rafaeldtinoco> slashd: you will be chairing after rbasak
<ddstreet> glad to have you back slashd :)
<rafaeldtinoco> fyio
<rafaeldtinoco> 3
<slashd> rafaeldtinoco: no problem for the chairing order
<rafaeldtinoco> 2
<rafaeldtinoco> 1
<rafaeldtinoco> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 15 19:43:46 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-15-18.59.moin.txt
<slashd> \o
<rafaeldtinoco> thank you everyone !
<rafaeldtinoco> have a nice evening!
<ddstreet> thanks! o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-16
<jamespage> o/
<sarnold> good morning
<ddstreet> o/
<doko> gi
<doko> hi
<doko> who's running the meeting?
<doko> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 16 14:37:16 2020 UTC.  The chair is doko. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic:
<doko> cpaelzer, didrocks ?
<doko> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cpaelzer> arr
<cpaelzer> I'm here
<cpaelzer> the new time isn't in my muscle memory yet
<cpaelzer> sarnold: ddstreet: didrocks: doko: joeubuntu: jamespage - starting now ...
<doko> I don't know about any open items from last week ...
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> cpaelzer: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<cpaelzer> I don't know of any old items either
<doko> well, then go ahead chairing ...
<cpaelzer> ah ok, np
<cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
<cpaelzer> the non propsoed has no new content at all
<cpaelzer> the proposed one has some things around libio-async-perl
<cpaelzer> those I ahven't seen before
<cpaelzer> doko: do you happen to know who of the +1 people looks at perl atm?
<cpaelzer> I did a two weeks ago, but have lost who does so right now
<cpaelzer> jamespage: kazoo and dependencies was on you IIRC - any updates on that fron since last time?
<doko> sorry, no idea.
<cpaelzer> the other new but is u-boot -> libubootenv
<cpaelzer> sounds like a package split to me
<jamespage> cpaelzer: lemme check
<jamespage> I thought that had been done - might be stuck in proposed
<doko> I'll look at the perl ones again
<cpaelzer> ok, as long as it is with you we are ok
<cpaelzer> thanks doko
<cpaelzer> waveform: hey u-boot is from you
<cpaelzer> waveform: is the new dependency to libubootenv known/expected?
<cpaelzer> and if so who will work on MIR'ing it?
<waveform> cpaelzer, ah - sorry, didn't realize that required a separate MIR. I can take that
<cpaelzer> thanks waveform
<cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
<cpaelzer> this will be quick - no unassigned ones (just jeepeney on security) and no update on the others
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
<cpaelzer> any differnt comment/topic to discuss or task to assign?
<jamespage> kazoo should come up for demotion now - minor oversight on the last upload
<cpaelzer> perfect
<jamespage> but nothing else from me
<cpaelzer> thanks jamespage
<didrocks> (oopss, sorry was in a meeting)
<cpaelzer> np, we started late
<didrocks> (my network dropped)
<cpaelzer> anything to add before we close didrocks?
<didrocks> if there was nothing assigned to me, nothing :)
<cpaelzer> nothing assigned today
<cpaelzer> you are good
<didrocks> \o/
<cpaelzer> counting out to 19 then
<cpaelzer> 2
<cpaelzer> 3
<cpaelzer> 5
<cpaelzer> 7
<cpaelzer> 13
<cpaelzer> 17
<cpaelzer> 19
<cpaelzer> done
<sarnold> :D
<cpaelzer> doko:  you have to end as you started it
<didrocks> thx cpaelzer
<sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all :)
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
<doko> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 16 14:48:03 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-16-14.37.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> you've got the power
<cpaelzer> thanks doko
<Bashing-om> popey: Excuse me for an interruption. for Ubuntu News Letter can you confirm that the info from http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ remains valid ?
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-18
<slyon> o/
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 18 15:02:33 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<xnox> hola
<rbalint> o/
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform slyon)
<bdmurray> vorlon waveform infinity mwhudson sil2100 bdmurray xnox rbalint tdaitx doko juliank slyon
<juliank> o/
<vorlon>  * various debian-cd, ubuntu-cdimage reviews for groovy
<vorlon>  * landed change to ubuntu-cdimage to drop checksums < SHA256
<vorlon>  * reviewed the keysigning output from Frankfurt (finally)
<vorlon> (done)
<bdmurray> Dave is out
<bdmurray> so sil2100
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - Shorter week due to PTO last week
<sil2100>   * Lots of backlog reading
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases (with HWE reviews for the point-releases)
<sil2100> - +1 maintenance on Monday and Tuesday
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - neplan:
<sil2100>   * Reviewing PRs for documentation versioning and NM globbing/route integration tests
<sil2100>   * Review PR for arm64 autopkgtest breakage with new NM
<sil2100>   * Sponsoring the above for groovy (in progress)
<sil2100>   * Started reviewing OVS controller (and others!) PR - looking good so far!
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Reviewed PR for UC20 new snap prepare-image copytree mechanics, requested changes, needs re-review
<sil2100>   * Reviewed PR for fdisk dependency change, sponsored into groovy
<sil2100> - Prepared and uploaded backports for python-botocore, python-s3transfer and awscli for the CPC team
<sil2100> - Appliance related meetings
<sil2100> - UC20 status discussions
<sil2100> - Built some test pi3-uc18-legacy images for cert testing (for the legacy images out there)
<sil2100> - Continued some work on appliance cdimage stuff
<sil2100> (done)
<bdmurray> +1 maintenance
<bdmurray> sync'ed golang-github-maraino-go-mock from debian
<bdmurray> worked on having the ISO tracker display testcases for RPi hardware
<bdmurray> worked on, submitted a PR for apt-hook changes
<bdmurray> review of packages without subscribers
<bdmurray> SRU verification of LP: #1874591, LP: #1826213
<bdmurray> SRU special reviews of awscli, python-botocore, python-s3transfer
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1874591 in update-manager (Ubuntu Focal) "[SRU] AptUrl GTK window stuck on screen after install completed" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1874591
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1826213 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/update-manager:AttributeError:/usr/bin/update-manager@118:start_update:start_available:refresh_cache:update" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826213
<bdmurray> that's all I have written down somehow
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> sponsored things to get fonts-dejavu to migrate
<xnox> retried bzip2 & uploaded cross-building test skip on i386 to get bzip2 to migrate
<xnox> started icu 67 transition (which also should have CET patch built in)
<xnox> cd-boot-images-$arch arch:all migration completed
<xnox> ppc64le enabled for cd-boot-images
<xnox> arm64 proposal in review
<xnox> TODO amd64 enablement
<xnox> TODO ubiquity vendor d-i
<xnox> completed migration of dual signing with 2018&2012 key, groovy is now only signed with 2018 key
<xnox> New libica for s390x https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libica/+bug/1878650
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1878650 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1878650). The error has been logged
<xnox> New opencryptoki for s390x https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/opencryptoki/+bug/1882808
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1882808 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1882808). The error has been logged
<xnox> A bunch of my SRUs got released, thank you all
<xnox> Progressing with missing CET rebuilds
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * LP: #1877078
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1877078 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "Please ship empty /etc/fstab in LXD images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1877078
<rbalint> * meetings with discussions about optimizing autopkgtest usage
<rbalint> * +1 maintenance - ongoing
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> tdaitx_:
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko>  - two days of +1 maintenace
<doko>  - CET: glibc upload
<doko>  - CET: look at interaction of -flto and -cf-protection
<doko>  - report a GCC 9 regression, test backport, upload
<doko>  - still need to look at the ftbfs of the GCC offload compilers
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * short week, swapped last friday
<juliank> * internal stuff
<juliank> * pending: grub: Add "dis_ucode_ldr" to linux boot options for Recovery Mode (LP: #1831789)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1831789 in grub2 (Ubuntu Groovy) "Add "dis_ucode_ldr" to linux boot options for Recovery Mode" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831789
<juliank> (done)
<slyon> - will be off tomorrow
<slyon> - Finished work on ubuntu-bug/apport snap handling, bug #1861082
<slyon>   * Fixed in 2.20.11-0ubuntu40
<slyon> === Netplan ===
<slyon> - Finished & Merged docs setting versioning, PR#137
<slyon> - Debugged & Fixed arm64 autopkgtest failure PR#146
<ubottu> bug 1861082 in snapd "ubuntu-bug doesn't know how to file bugs against snaps" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861082
<slyon>   * distro-patch for Groovy awaiting review + sponsor:
<slyon>     https://code.launchpad.net/~slyon/netplan/+git/ubuntu/+merge/385995
<slyon> - Debugged & Fixed tests for new NM interface globbing/routing, PR#140
<slyon> - Wrote a NetworkManager plugin "test plan" document
<slyon>   * Shared with Desktop & Field teams, via foundations-crew
<slyon> - Working on OVS patch-ports & ssl settings & integration tests, PR#147
<slyon> (done)
<bdmurray> speaking of bug 1861082 should we SRU that to 20.04?
<slyon> I guess it might be useful for the LTS
<bdmurray> I think so, vorlon?
<vorlon> yeah that looks like a good thing to SRU
<slyon> vorlon, bdmurray. I can prepare this SRU
<bdmurray> slyon: great
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
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<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-gg-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1874192
<ubottu> bug 1874192 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "Remove avahi .local notification support (no longer needed)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1874192
<bdmurray> So while that's not important it seems like something somebody doing the next upload of update-notifier could do.
<vorlon> so do you think it needs carded/tracked?
<bdmurray> I don't think it needs it but don't know if there is a better way to track it.
<vorlon> maybe you want to just immediately claim the card and commit it to git and we can move on :)
<bdmurray> Maybe targetted and not carded and hope the next uploader looks at targeted bugs.
<vorlon> ok
<bdmurray> okay
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<mclemenceau> o/
<bdmurray> bug 1863434
<ubottu> bug 1863434 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "20.04 grub menu not visible" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1863434
<juliank> sigh
<vorlon> - invisible_ink=yes
<vorlon> + invisible_ink=no
<bdmurray> lol
<vorlon> this is looking like a piled-on meta bug
<juliank> I doN't understand the bug
<vorlon> I don't think we should take it
<bdmurray> What is the medium post about?
<juliank> it says to add
<juliank> GRUB_TIMEOUT_STYLE=menu
<juliank> GRUB_TERMINAL=console
<juliank> to /etc/default/grub
<vorlon> notfixing based on confusing metabugness
<bdmurray> bug 1829401 is already carded
<ubottu> bug 1829401 in packagekit (Ubuntu) "gi.repository.GLib.GError: pk-client-error-quark: could not do untrusted question as no klass support" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1829401
<vorlon> bdmurray: so do you want me to target it?
<bdmurray> vorlon: I'm cleaning it up
<vorlon> ok
<bdmurray> bug 1875062
<ubottu> bug 1875062 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[20.04] Keyboard layout not enabled immediately during installation when typing username/password" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875062
<bdmurray> Isn't that the same keyboard stuff we've been looking at? xnox?
<xnox> yes
<bdmurray> bug 1557739
<ubottu> bug 1557739 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-bug crashed with termios.error in raw_input_char(): (25, 'Inappropriate ioctl for device')" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1557739
<bdmurray> This doesn't seem too important
<vorlon> agreed
<vorlon> ancient, infrequent
<bdmurray> There is an errors bucket with nothing new in it too
<vorlon> so -notfixing?
<bdmurray> yes, done
<bdmurray> bug 1755452
<ubottu> bug 1755452 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashed with ValueError in command(): I/O operation on closed file." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1755452
<vorlon> also doesn't look like a priority, if the reproducer is that ubiquity crashes when you quit it
<vorlon> (valid bug; shouldn't be prioritized)
<bdmurray> okay
<bdmurray> bug 1858013
<ubottu> bug 1858013 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "20.04 installer doesn't note power cable status on 'prepare to install' window" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1858013
<bdmurray> Is the power cable status supposed to be there?
<vorlon> "I wanted to double check instead of rely on memory - I downloaded the most recent build and the status icon on the top right is correct for me.
<vorlon> "
<bdmurray> So that slide of the installer is no longer there
<vorlon> ok sounds like the problem is the iso tracker test case needs updated
<bdmurray> yeah
<vorlon> and we should do something about that, but it's not a code fix
<vorlon> so should we take this card for the isotracker changes?
<bdmurray> sounds reasonable
<bdmurray> bug 1867007
<ubottu> bug 1867007 in systemd (Ubuntu) "zfs-initramfs fails with multiple rpool on separate disks" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1867007
<rbalint> i think it is fixed
<rbalint> no, i seem to be wrong
<bdmurray> that seems like zfs / desktop team stuff
<bdmurray> bug 1867465
<ubottu> bug 1867465 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer disconnects wifi (after choosing download while installing, 3rd party)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1867465
<vorlon> notfixing but getting it reassigned to systemd
<bdmurray> let's stop there then
<vorlon> (to figure out why the interface names are different between the two drivers)
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<vorlon> [LINK] https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> the one at the top was golang-defaults, which I vaguely intimated last week should be given to mwhudson
<vorlon> but of course he's not in the meeting
<vorlon> so I'll follow up more concretely this week
<vorlon> util-linux: bdmurray: is this still you?
<bdmurray> Well I haven't gotten a chance to start but yes
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> python-secretstorage is still the MIR
<vorlon> vim is still me (I also haven't worked on it in the past week)
<vorlon> xnox: bzip2 is yours
<xnox> and in progress, sort of
<vorlon> should be easy, it's just i386 autopkgtest regression
<vorlon> :)
<vorlon> oops, a refresh of the page makes bzip2 go away (or rather, farther down the list)
<vorlon> numpy: it was "waiting" on some tests that were apparently not actually queued
<vorlon> so I've requeued them and that should finally clear on its own today
<vorlon> autopkgtest was me, I think gscan2pdf just needs to be hinted
<vorlon> as a badtest
<vorlon> (regardless, I'll follow up)
<vorlon> then there are things blocked on perl migration
<vorlon> and apt: juliank, you on this?
<juliank> yeah, I'll look at stuff tomorrow
<vorlon> libarchive
<vorlon> doko: this was assigned to you, do you still have it?
<doko> yes, not yet done
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> juliank: are you also still on dpkg?
<juliank> yes
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> python-attrs was me last week, I fixed the autopkgtest blocker, now there are pypy revdeps to sort; I'll take it
<vorlon> dpkg/make-dfsg also juliank
<juliank> +1
<vorlon> sqlite3 not yet assigned
<vorlon> sil2100: can you take this?
<sil2100> Sure!
<vorlon> thanks
<sil2100> Carding
<vorlon> then more things waiting on perl or blocking perl; probably mostly autopkgtest retries so I'll take this
<rbalint> vorlon, i've retried systemd already
<vorlon> libzstd vs badger, a go package build failure, may just require a hint
<vorlon> slyon: can you take libzstd and figure out if this should be badtest hinted?
<slyon> yes!
<vorlon> thanks
<vorlon> rbalint: can you take libxcrypt?
<rbalint> sure, carding it
<vorlon> doko: can you take cdebconf?
<vorlon> procps vs autopkgtest, I'm retriggering against -proposed
<vorlon> libuv1 has autopkgtest regressions on all archs; who can take this?
<vorlon> bdmurray?
<bdmurray> okay
<vorlon> and netplan.io vs iproute2
<doko> vorlon: I can try, but I'm running short on time preparing the binutils & GCC upgrades
<slyon> netplan.io might be fixed with the -0ubuntu5 update I've proposed for merging today...
<vorlon> slyon: is this related to what you're working on? ok
<vorlon> slyon: then this is yours
<slyon> sure
<vorlon> doko: ack
<vorlon> glibc, I'll throw these back in the queue, but also it's waiting on arm tests to finish
<vorlon> and I think we'll stop there for today
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> alright thanks everybody
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 18 16:05:58 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-18-15.02.moin.txt
<sil2100> o/
<rbalint> o/
<mclemenceau> o/
<slyon> o/
<vorlon> thanks!
