#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-13
<charlie-tca> No new images again today 
<charlie-tca> Let's go ahead and run the tests scheduled for the 13th on the images we have 
<noey> hello
<davmor2> charlie-tca: how's life dude?
<charlie-tca> It's going, at least. Grass is green, thanks to the daily dose of rain here
<charlie-tca> I am starting to believe that "rust" really is a color now.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 40 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<davmor2> charlie-tca: haha yes rust really is a colour
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 1 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> Are we ready to have a meeting?
<charlie-tca> #STARTMEETING
<micahg> o/
 * micahg passes charlie-tca a chair
<charlie-tca> yes, I know we have no meeting bot, but at least using start and end lets a person seach the logs easily
<charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg 
<charlie-tca> Welcome to the Xubuntu Community Meeting. The full agenda is always available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> *   Old business - all
<charlie-tca>         knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing - email discussion started on xubuntu-devel ML - DONE
<charlie-tca>         Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU
<charlie-tca> *   Team updates - Team Leads
<charlie-tca>  *       Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca>             Changes to the default applications
<charlie-tca> *       Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca>             Daily testing versus milestone testing
<charlie-tca> *       Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca>             There is a current discussion on the xubuntu-devel mailing list
<charlie-tca> *       Artwork
<charlie-tca> *       Documentation
<charlie-tca> *   Announcements - Project Lead
<charlie-tca>         TeamReports need to be updated
<charlie-tca>             https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
<charlie-tca> *   Governance structure - all
<charlie-tca>         The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu Governance & Team Structure
<charlie-tca> *   Any Other Business - all/anyone
<charlie-tca>         Anyone involved with Xubuntu can update TeamReports, please do not wait for the Project Lead to do the updates.
<charlie-tca> whoa! that looks big
<pleia2> :)
<charlie-tca> Old business - all
<charlie-tca>         knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing
<charlie-tca> We closed this because we did start the discussion on the Mailing List. It is not as active as I would like, however, it is a start!
<charlie-tca> Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU
<charlie-tca> I'm behind and getting farther behind.
<charlie-tca> Team updates - Team Leads
<charlie-tca>  *       Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: You make it, or micahg 
<charlie-tca> The updates I have already are :
<charlie-tca> LightDM replaced GDM as the login manager
<charlie-tca> xarchiver replaced file-roller due to nautilus dependency with file-roller
<charlie-tca> leafpad replaced mousepad; mousepad needs a maintainer in Xfce. This will also allow Xubuntu to drop xfprint4, which is used only by mousepad. 
<charlie-tca> micahg: your turn
<micahg> mr_pouit created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Oneiric/DeltaReviewAndCleanup to track the current diffs with Debian
<charlie-tca> Great idea!
<micahg> we have a few syncs waiting for the next sync run, it looks like we'll only have a handful of packages with a diff in ubuntu when we're done, some of the diff will be kept in Debian
<charlie-tca> Did we get pavucontrol and pastebinit added to the defaults?
<micahg> not yet
<charlie-tca> and, what about the possibility of shipping with two browsers?
<micahg> we also added back the places plugin since it no longer uses hal
<charlie-tca> Yay!
<charlie-tca> That's a nice gain
<micahg> we're still horribly oversized, we should work on that first before adding more IMHO
<charlie-tca> I agree. Ubuntu seems to be under now, we should be able to work our images down too
<micahg> yeah, well, we're inheriting some bloat still from Ubuntu (GTK3)
<charlie-tca> Thanks for the updates, micahg 
<micahg> so, we'll see what happens after the next CD run
<charlie-tca> Any questions/comments for development?
<charlie-tca> Next topic then...
<charlie-tca> Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca>             Daily testing versus milestone testing
<charlie-tca> We have not gotten an image since the 10th of June. It is under investigation
<charlie-tca> However, having a couple of people willing to test daily images (install, restart, update, restart, shutdown), we now have chart of daily testing to use.
<charlie-tca> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AucFSttyWCevdGZSenZqRS04eE9LYnBwSWtUM0NJRXc&hl=en_US&authkey=CP282scF#gid=0
<charlie-tca> If we are updating it, we will move it to the wiki
<charlie-tca> Otherwise, it becomes a nice flowchart for the testing people to try to use.
<charlie-tca> There are still a ton of issues with oneiric, too many to report all the bugs this early.
<charlie-tca> any questions for testing?
<charlie-tca> Next topic...
<charlie-tca> Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca>             There is a current discussion on the xubuntu-devel mailing list
<charlie-tca> Anyone is welcome to add to the discussion. We really need someone to grab this and carry it on.
<pleia2> if someone has some ideas for content we can start creating the "promote xubuntu" page on the site
<pleia2> I can start by just putting the logos up if you want
<charlie-tca> And, in Marketing terms, we welcome the addition of plantoschka to the team.
<charlie-tca> pleia2: that would be great!
<pleia2> ok cool, I'll work on that then :)
<plantoschka> ;-)
<charlie-tca> We also have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing with general ideas
<charlie-tca> plantoschka has been kind enough to offer to write news releases and blogs for Xubuntu.
<pleia2> great
<pleia2> for website stuff, I've been tackling bugs at https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website and we're down to just 1, but please add more if you find them
<pleia2> and we now have a test wordpress install up at xubuntu.princessleia.com (please don't spread this URL too far, the server has limited power :)) where knome is developing our wordpress theme
<charlie-tca> wOw! That's great. Let's stay on top, if you haven't visited http://xubuntu.org lately, it is time to visit it
<charlie-tca> all bugs against the website can be reported directly to launchpad or using      ubuntu-bug xubuntu-website
<pleia2> I also emailed cody to see if he could update the current drupal site with knomes latest drupal revision which puts the new logo in, but I haven't heard back
<charlie-tca> and he isn't here today, either. 
<charlie-tca> Shall we let plantoschka introduce himself?
<pleia2> yeah, I'm done :)
<charlie-tca> plantoschka: go ahead and tell us a little about you
<plantoschka> oh okay ;)
<charlie-tca> I know you said you have written a blog in german?
<plantoschka> i'm anton from germany 23 years old and atm studying computer science. i use and work with linux system since a couple of years and now using (and loving) xubuntu since a few months
<plantoschka> yes. http://www.plantoschka.com/
<plantoschka> some posts are dedicated to xubuntu
<charlie-tca> I forgot to tell you I was going to have you introduce yourself today?
<plantoschka> yeah ;)
<charlie-tca> Welcome to Xubuntu! We are happy to have help
<charlie-tca> Any questions on website and marketing?
<plantoschka> not right now
<charlie-tca> next topic...
<charlie-tca> Artwork
<charlie-tca> Our theme will be re-worked to fine tune it for Oneiric. Those with real sharp eyes running Oneiric will see the changes, or at least it did change.
<charlie-tca> Next topic... 
<charlie-tca> Announcements
<charlie-tca> There is a really neat review of Xfce, which Xubuntu is based on 
<charlie-tca> http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/456623-weekend-project-find-hidden-treasures-in-xfce-48
<plantoschka> is greybird going to support gtk3 apps? or does it already?
<charlie-tca> ochosi is planning to support gtk3, yes
<plantoschka> ok think itÃ
<charlie-tca> There are no themes yet for it, though
<plantoschka> it's important for oneiric
<plantoschka> or all the gtk3 apps look bad
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu will stay in gtk2 for oneiric, since Xfce requires it
<charlie-tca> but, yeah, with the mix of them, we will have the theme updated for gtk3
<plantoschka> yeah, but still some people are using nautilus or similar..
<charlie-tca> heh, oh well... ;-)
<charlie-tca> software center will also be gtk3, and it is included by default
<micahg> xubuntu will be staying on gtk2 for oneiric+1 as well :)
<micahg> software center might not be ported to gtk3
<micahg> ubuntu now has a theme engine so that one theme can work for both gtk3 and gtk2
<plantoschka> please never remove the software center from xubuntu :-D
<charlie-tca> I never use it, myself.
<charlie-tca> however, let's press on here
<charlie-tca> next topic...
<charlie-tca> Announcements
<charlie-tca> TeamReports need to be updated
<charlie-tca>             https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
<charlie-tca> If we keep the team reports updated as we go through the month, it is much easier than trying to remember everything we did at the end of the month
<charlie-tca> Anyone involved with Xubuntu can update TeamReports, please do not wait for the Project Lead to do the updates.
<charlie-tca> Questions?
<charlie-tca> micahg, mr_pouit : the sooner we can say yes or no to gtk3 the better it will be.
<charlie-tca> Any other business?
<charlie-tca> The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu Governance & Team Structure
<micahg> charlie-tca: well, IMHO, if we need it (for shared components we can't replace), we take it, if not, not
<micahg> charlie-tca: do we need yelp?
<charlie-tca> yes
<micahg> ok, that's GTK3, issue solved :)
<charlie-tca> apparently, much of the xfce documentation is now read through yelp
<charlie-tca> or at least the answer is "yes, we need yelp"
<charlie-tca> so, we will have both, huh?
<micahg> yep
<charlie-tca> anything else???   Anyone???
<charlie-tca> testing!
<micahg> better to take this hit this cycle than scrambling next cycle, we'll definitely need it next cycle
<micahg> at least for the shared stuff :)
<charlie-tca> I have a couple of people signed up for daily and milestone testing. But I am losing them faster than I can sign them up
<charlie-tca> Alpha2 is due on July 7. On July 5, we start milestone testing the candidate for Alpha2. THat is the involved tests.
<charlie-tca> Even as volunteers, once you tell us you will do something, we expect it to happen, please.
<charlie-tca> going....
<charlie-tca> going 2 .....
<pleia2> charlie-tca: a reminder to the -devel list on the 4th or 5th would be super helpful
<charlie-tca> Can do
<pleia2> thanks :)
<charlie-tca> no problem
<charlie-tca> Thanks for bringing that up
<charlie-tca> Next meeting will be Sunday June 19 at 22:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> and I will try to be here for it
<charlie-tca> Thanks to everyone for participating in the meeting. 
<charlie-tca> #ENDMEETING
<plantoschka> what exactly does a tester has to do?
<plantoschka> and is testing inside vm enough or should it run native?
<charlie-tca> We test the cd's before they are published. Daily testing is to make the cd will even work, since changes happen every day
<charlie-tca> yes, vm is enough
<charlie-tca> Milestone testing is more intensive and involved. It follows this:
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
<Unit193> And I just got here... Time to read up
<charlie-tca> The testing is done for the development images
<charlie-tca> which often are broken
<plantoschka> maybe i can help there too, but probably just from end of july.. too much stuff do to atm..
<charlie-tca> Hopefully, testing will get most of the bugs reported and fixed before the users get the cd's
<charlie-tca> That's fine. Every little bit helps
<charlie-tca> Anyone using weechat for IRC here?
<charlie-tca> micahg: I did try thunderbird in oneiric. It started, and seems to work.
<charlie-tca> I will probably have to switch to it, to give it good testing.
<Wizard> hi
<charlie-tca> Like anything that is different, it will take sometime to get used to 
<plantoschka> hi Wizard 
<charlie-tca> Gonna be a confusing week, with Thunderbird and Weechat to get used to again.
<Unit193> I use thunderbird/alpine and irssi. I was following the milestone for a few of the daily tests (That's why it was a little harder)
<plantoschka> will dejadub also be integrated in the xubuntu livecd?
<charlie-tca> I currently use claws-mail and xchat, which I have used for more than two years now
<charlie-tca> plantoschka: we do not plan to add it at this time
<charlie-tca> It is very much Ubuntu/Unity/UbuntuOne oriented now, although it does still work for us
<plantoschka> ok
<plantoschka> if i regulary update the daily built from today will it be any different from a daily build a couple of days later?
<plantoschka> or is it necessary to install a from a fresh livecd every couple of day or can i just upgrade?
<charlie-tca> If you install using the daily build, and update it regularly, it will be very close to the image built at any time
<plantoschka> but not exactly the same? :-D
<charlie-tca> I installed the weekend after alpha1 released, and update it daily
<plantoschka> i mean if i would use the alpha 1 from 11.04 and upgrade it would i get lightdm instead of gdm3 ?
<charlie-tca> It can not be exact, because some of the changes affect things you will have changed. We do not change what you set for yourself.
<charlie-tca> um, 11.04 is the last stable release.
<charlie-tca> If you install oneiric alpha1, yes, you should get lightdm when updating it
<plantoschka> i meant 11.10 :-D
<plantoschka> this version numbers make me crazy ;)
<charlie-tca> but sometimes, you have to do the changes yourself. I installed lightdm here when I set everything up for myself. That was a while before xubuntu set it up
<charlie-tca> You will get used to the numbers. The numbers are easy if you remember their meaning.
<charlie-tca> The first number is always the year, and the second number is the month of the actual release.
<plantoschka> yeah i know but still..
<plantoschka> 10,11,12,13,14 would have been easir ;)
<charlie-tca> Just use oneiric for the current development release. It is easier than a number
<plantoschka> yeah probably.
<charlie-tca> but meant less
<charlie-tca> 11.04 released in April of 2011
<plantoschka> is it somehow possible to blacklist installation of some applications like nautilus or gnome-panel? sometimes when i install something from software center (like alacarte) it installs some gnome stuff i dont really need.. (11.04)
<charlie-tca> yup
<xrdodrx> plantoschka, it installs them as they are the dependencies of alacarte, I'm not sure you'd want to go around apt like that 
<xrdodrx> but it's possible, yes
<charlie-tca> add it to a list in /etc/modprobe.d
<plantoschka> i could uninstall gnome-panel and nautilus and alacarte is still there and works..
<charlie-tca> once added, It can not install again
<charlie-tca> and if it does that, file a bug against the application installed.
<xrdodrx> ^
<plantoschka> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf here?
<charlie-tca> alacarte should not pull in nautilus. That is a bug in software center
<charlie-tca> yup
<micahg> charlie-tca: ? modprobe is the driver blacklist
<xrdodrx> that means they are bad dependencies :(
<charlie-tca> plantoschka: I am wrong, apparently.
<charlie-tca> micahg: I thought you could blacklist apps too there?
<plantoschka> i'm not 100% sure that alacarte pulled nautilus. but one app definetly done it.. but alacarte pulled gnome-panel
<micahg> charlie-tca: I don't think so
<charlie-tca> plantoschka: still a bug in software-center
<micahg> alacarte recommends gnome-panel which pulls in other stuff
<micahg> charlie-tca: no, not a bug in software center
<ochosi> yeah, i think it's a problem with the default apt-setting
<micahg> we install recommends by default
<ochosi> it pulls recommends by default since a few versions
<ochosi> (same in debian btw)
<charlie-tca> does apt-get do that too?
<micahg> yep
<plantoschka> the archlinux packetmanager pacman can block specific packages ;)
<plantoschka> apt not?
<charlie-tca> Then Ubuntu needs to make it work different, alacarte does not need gnome-panel
<ochosi> charlie-tca: you can work around it by either changing the settings or using "--no-recommends" or something like that
<micahg> plantoschka: I know in aptitude you can hold packages at a certain version
<micahg> plantoschka: you can try apt pinning
<ochosi> you can also pin package versions in synaptic
<charlie-tca> but that doesn't make it not pull it in
<micahg> charlie-tca: recommends is something used in most scenarios, still we can probably get that dropped to a suggests
<charlie-tca> pinning the version will not make gnome-panel not install with a package we need.
<ochosi> micahg is right
<micahg> charlie-tca: right
<charlie-tca> We can only get it dropped with a bug report, right?
<micahg> yeah, unfortunately, the panels don't provide a virtual package or we could use that
<charlie-tca> so, we are back to the beginning. We need a bug report on it, to get something done about it
<ochosi> probably we can ship the apt-setting in the xubuntu default settings package?
<charlie-tca> for every package that we don't know about?
<micahg> charlie-tca: debian 603013 partially addresses this
<ubottu> Debian bug 603013 in alacarte "alacarte: spurious dependency on gnome-menus" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/603013
<micahg> ochosi: no, I think we want to install recommends by default, we can block certain things on the images, but ideally, if something's really wrong, we should just get it fixed
<ochosi> hm right.
<ochosi> well i generally switch off the install-recommends option, guess that's why i wanted to suggest it
<plantoschka> going to watch the new game of thrones episode :-D bye
<charlie-tca> so, debian patches alacarte to only work with gnome, and Ubuntu could remove that patch?
<xrdodrx> wow, alacarte has a lot of recommends
<xrdodrx> you can install just alacarte with:
<micahg> alacarte only recommends gnome-panel
<xrdodrx> sudo aptitude -R install alacarte
<xrdodrx> I just did it myself
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, per that debian bug report, it may not be useable by xfce:
<charlie-tca> The problem is that in its current state, alacarte will only be able to
<charlie-tca> edit gnome-applications.menu and gnome-settings.menu - we patch it do
<charlie-tca> so, otherwise that would be applications.menu and settings.menu.
<xrdodrx> micahg, I'm a bit confused then, here's what happened for me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/626122/
<xrdodrx> it seems to depend/recommend on every package in ubuntu :|
<xrdodrx> so far as even ubuntuone-client
<micahg> xrdodrx: gnome-panel has a lot of depends/recommends :)
<xrdodrx> adding the -R switch only installed alacarte
<xrdodrx> micahg, oh, I see ;)
 * micahg will ask the desktop team tomorrow
<charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg 
<charlie-tca> Okay, I have to go shovel dirt now
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-14
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> We have new images to test today
<ochosi> hey charlie-tca 
<ochosi> sorry i didn't make the meeting yesterday
<charlie-tca> No problem
<charlie-tca> You told me before you would be in and out for a few days/weeks
<ochosi> yep
<charlie-tca> I will try to get the minutes out today
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> charlie-tca: shall i update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports with some artwork news?
<charlie-tca> Definitely
<charlie-tca> We need to try and keep it up to date
<ochosi> meh, the wiki is still pretty laggy
<charlie-tca> Oh, yeah
<ochosi> but anyway, i updated it
<charlie-tca> They are working on fixing it, but yes, it is still slow and gives the failed to load often
<charlie-tca> but, so does launchpad now :)
<ochosi> yup
<charlie-tca> REALLY? desktop images are under 700MB today, but the alternate images are oversized!
<astraljava> Whoa, that's weird.
<astraljava> Anyways, I'll do install testing today on i386, but that will have to wait until 1800-1900 UTC, give or take.
<charlie-tca> images are broken today
<charlie-tca> already... using a new build method, didn't get it quite right today
<charlie-tca> images are broken today
<GridCube> :(
<GridCube> :D good morning mister charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> but there are images!
<charlie-tca> GridCube: good morning
<GridCube> :)
<micahg> umm, we're not oversized anymore...
<micahg> well, live builds aren't alternates are
<charlie-tca1> right
<charlie-tca1> at least is actually looking tiny
<charlie-tca1> (under 600 MB)
<charlie-tca1> but, the downside is, they are broken today
<GridCube> drc is MIA?
<charlie-tca1> yes, drc is MIA
<GridCube> :(
<charlie-tca1> I did send an email asking what happened to him, got no response back
<GridCube> want me to do some testings?
<charlie-tca1> can't test today. The images are broken
<GridCube> i've heard that
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> just ask whenever you have something to be tested
<GridCube> if i can i will help
<charlie-tca1> I can do that
<charlie-tca1> First things first. Got to figure out how to use this weechat client
<GridCube> hahaha
<charlie-tca1> It works better than xchat with dasher
<charlie-tca1> I think, anyway
<GridCube> oh :)
<micahg> charlie-tca1: hggdh likes weechat
 * davmor2 is sickened to here that micahg chats with wee, words and text are the norm ;)
<GridCube> weechat is like irssi?
<charlie-tca1> yeah, I guess. I never tried irrssi
<charlie-tca1> it definitely runs in a terminal
<GridCube> oh it looks prettier than irssi
<charlie-tca1> it's the learning curve. Going from Xchat to Weechat is a big change
<GridCube> i like the fact that it has several scripst and visual configurations, but then again i like irssi a lot
<charlie-tca1> I don't know if I like much about it now. I used it way back, though, and it was pretty good after I got used to it.
 * charlie-tca1 doesn't really get along well with terminal these days
<GridCube> hehehe
<micahg> mr_pouit: so, apparently, alacarte is stuck pulling in gnome-panel since it uses one of its binaries, can we switch to gmenu-simple-editor in gnome-menus (suggested by seb128)
 * micahg guesses that's what we were using before
<charlie-tca1> Alacarte used to work
<charlie-tca1> back in karmic or earlier, before Xfce 4.6
 * charlie-tca1 thinks "as in W-A-Y back"
<micahg> charlie-tca1: it'll work fine, it just pulls in a lot of gnome deps :)
<charlie-tca1> Guess we shouldn't recommend alacarte no more in #xubuntu, either, then
<micahg> well, if disk space isn't a problem and it's a better tool, then by all means
<charlie-tca1> I don't know better/worse. I haven't tried them both to compare. if alacarte pulls in gnome panel, we can switch, as far as I am concerned. 
 * micahg unfortunately isn't familiar enough with it to know if it's possible to separate the GNOME parts out, there is some desire for this in Debian as well, so it might happen at some point
<charlie-tca1> As long as gmenu-simple-editor works, I don't have a problem
<charlie-tca1> The farther we get from Gnome, the better off we seem to be
<astraljava> So, the images are broken? *grin*
<Unit193> And I had fully planned and had the time to do all the testing! (Even put it on my gcal!)
<micahg> Unit193: I wonder if the alternate images are working
<Unit193> I thought they were all broken... I could try it
<micahg> idk, charlie-tca would know better
<Unit193> I just started downloading if they were not broken
<astraljava> Unit193: Well, judging from the at least three separate times he mentioned that, I do actually believe him. Was just messing about. :D
<mr_pouit> micahg: hey, I don't think alacarte is in the seeds?
<mr_pouit> (because for me, it always broke the xfce menu, because of its OnlyShowIn=GNOME thing)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-15
<micahg> mr_pouit: hmm...I thought I saw it added, but I guess I was seeing things ;)
<mr_pouit> nautilus wasn't included in the latest build, so I guess it's fine
<mr_pouit> we still have gnome-menus because it's required by software-center (I don't really know why, possibly for the .desktop categories, in which case garcon could fulfill this requirement as well)
<mr_pouit> oh, and we have the deps of gnome-games also.
<charlie-tca> *gm
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<davmor2> charlie-tca: in the state they genetically modify good mornings that's just wrong
<charlie-tca> lol
<charlie-tca> davmor2: That might be the most correct thing this week
<davmor2> haha
<charlie-tca> Alternate images still broken for partitioning
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: something is very wrong with the live cd. I only have gnome and unity sessions on it for live desktop today
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: there are no xfce or xubuntu sessions available on the live cd
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: try to poke cjwatson about that. I just looked at the manifest files, and there's no xf* package in it. I think something broke when he changed the live cd build system
<mr_pouit> (and indeed, 570M is wrong)
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<mr_pouit> I pinged him
<charlie-tca> me too
<charlie-tca> Thanks for looking so quick
<mr_pouit> actually, it looks like an unity live-cd without openoffice
<mr_pouit> that's nice ;D
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> I don't know, I didn't log in to it.
<charlie-tca> I thought it was great we were so far undersized!
<charlie-tca> I suppose that will change too, when xfce is added back in
<pleia2> charlie-tca: do much docbook work?
 * pleia2 is looking for a good editor
<pleia2> I've just been using vim, exploring my options :)
<TheSheep> pleia2: gvim ;)
<TheSheep> pleia2: hard to find anything better than vim
<TheSheep> pleia2: perhaps emacs, for the people who like it
<pleia2> TheSheep: yeah, that's what I found the last time I explored, was curious as to whether the situation had changed
<TheSheep> pleia2: I like where scribus is going
<TheSheep> pleia2: especially for python code
<pleia2> scribus? I thought that was a desktop publishing thing
<TheSheep> scribes
<TheSheep> sorry
<pleia2> ah, I haven't looked at that
<pleia2> I still write everything in vim :\
<TheSheep> it has very minimalistic interface, but is pretty powerful
 * pleia2 nods
<TheSheep> I mean scribes, not vim
<TheSheep> :)
<TheSheep> vim has powerful interface
<TheSheep> but I think I will keep using vim to the end of my days
<pleia2> ooh, scribes has a very slick interface
<charlie-tca> pleia2: I don't know docbook, but I do like geany for an editor
<charlie-tca> It seems to work for everything, build, make, configure, terminal, file lists, etc
<charlie-tca> and I can write a plain text file with it! (always a plus if I can use it)
<charlie-tca> pleia2: j1mc is very good with docbook now
<pleia2> charlie-tca: thanks
<charlie-tca> good luck with it. I tried for a year to learn it, but my brain is mushy
<charlie-tca> I put it right up with bash
<charlie-tca> :)
<charlie-tca> As of tomorrow, a
<charlie-tca> As of tomorrow, all images will be directly writable to USB drives or cd-r' s
<charlie-tca> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-June/033495.html
<charlie-tca> You will not need to use USB-creator to write the image to the USB drive
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Yeah, excited about that. Always a bit of a hassle with the creator.
<charlie-tca> I would like an image. Today's images are missing xfce, maybe tomorrow's will be better?
 * charlie-tca is asking for a LOT now
<micahg> alternate images are horribly oversized now
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-16
<charlie-tca> set irc.color.item_away !white
<charlie-tca> wiki/moinmoin upgrade today in about 11 hours
<charlie-tca> Maybe it will help with the slowness and errors !
<knome> awwh
<charlie-tca> We can hope, can'
<charlie-tca> We can hope, can't we?
<knome> yes, but let's not keep too high expectations
<charlie-tca> Mine are already soaring... ;)
<knome> just remember that it hurts more when you start falling higher
<charlie-tca> oh, very true
<TheSheep> btw, if you have any trouble with moinmoin...
 * TheSheep points to his cloak
<charlie-tca> TheSheep: moinmoin desktop edition will not work with python higher than 2.6
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: desktop edition is discontinued since a while, regular moin can be now run on your desktop
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: also, I rather meant help with config and troubleshooting, you can file bug reports yourself ;)
<charlie-tca> Running moinmoin 1.9.3
<charlie-tca> TheSheep: I had to hope you would know how to make it work with a higher version of python, since 2.6 is being phased away
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: can you pastebin the traceback?
<charlie-tca> oh, no, I dumped the trace and went back to 2.6, so I could use it.
<charlie-tca> I will have to reset everything, grab the trace, and try this again, huh?
<charlie-tca> wait, let me try something.
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: I can try installing it and running it locally
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: later today
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: but I'm pretty sure that all the devs use newest python
<charlie-tca> here it is - http://paste.ubuntu.com/627958/
<charlie-tca> What' s the newest? I thought it was 1.9.3 
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: it is, but I only have a repository checkout at the moment
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: what I meant by "all devs use newest python" is that it was tested with 2.7 for sure
<charlie-tca> oh, I ran the trace. Is it time to file a bug?
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: so the error might be in your config
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: please pastebin the trace
<charlie-tca> here it is - http://paste.ubuntu.com/627958/
<TheSheep> why is it trying to execute  "CharlieKravetz/BugNotes" ?
<TheSheep> do you have any custom plugins?
<charlie-tca> because it doesn' t fail until I open a page in the browser
<charlie-tca> then it fails for any page
<charlie-tca> TheSheep: I don' t think I have any custom plugins
<charlie-tca> astraljava, Unit193 : images won't install yet. We do have 386 images only today. 
<charlie-tca> If anyone tries the desktop image, we want to know if there is a Xubuntu session?
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: ok, I'm digging into it, thanks for the report
<charlie-tca> Thanks for looking at it. Let me know if I should file a bug report
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: ok, found it, you have to clear the cache
<charlie-tca> Really?
<charlie-tca> I will try that then
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: moinmoin caches things as pickles that contain python code too
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Sure I can try later this evening.
<charlie-tca> astraljava: never mind. The desktop cd is broken too. It might be fixed tomorrow, since they rebuilt Ubuntu today and it is working with 20110616.1 only
<charlie-tca> Do we want to do a Developer Week session ?
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: xfce packages are liste in the manifest at least
<mr_pouit> *listed
<charlie-tca> nothing works though. No 64bit images for anyone today, and they just rebuilt ubuntu to make it work
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: Should I sign up for Developer Week this time?
<charlie-tca> It gets word out, but you might have all the help we want this cycle?
<mr_pouit> well, we've caught micahg :P (maybe we should add him to xubuntu-dev on LP so he can't escape anymore)
<charlie-tca> I think we should. He is doing a lot for us
 * micahg waves
 * knome tickles micahg 
<micahg> hehe, stop that...
<pleia2> knome: when I open the new xubuntu theme on my mini9 (1024 resolution) the image+javascript spills out of the white box
<pleia2> any way we can make it stay inside?
<knome> pleia2, sure, we just need to fix the width for the imageslider column
<pleia2> cool
<ochosi> will you add arrows to the slider as well?
<knome> ochosi, probably not, but if that's a common wish, then i suppose i could do that.
 * ochosi == common? ;)
<knome> nope :P
<ochosi> not sure, most of the sliders on websites i know have those arrows
<ochosi> so i kinda got used to them and expect them
<knome> i know, but i suppose that also depends on the usecase
<ochosi> yeah, but i'm really talking about very similar usecases
<knome> mmh
<ochosi> btw, what about a tiny drop shadow around the outline?
<ochosi> would make it feel a bit more "spacial"
<knome> lol
<knome> well
<knome> you mean the whole page outline?
<ochosi> ye
<knome> maybe
<knome> need to think that tomorrow, or weekend
<ochosi> e.g. this one has nice drop shadows around the boxes: http://elementaryos.org/discover/
<knome> right, well, at least css3 is okay
<knome> i'm not sure if it's worth it with non-css3
<micahg> any css3 stuff should still degrade gracefully
<ochosi> css3-only +1
<micahg> i.e. the spec isn't finalized and support still isn't there across the board
<knome> micahg, yeah.
<knome> micahg, but the question was about delivering the effect to non-css3-supporting browsers, and i don't think that's worth it
<micahg> ah, ok, as long as it still looks good on non css3 browsers, I think it's fine to make CSS3 browsers super awesome
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> knome: did you hear that? make it super-awesome you css3-daredevil ;)
<knome> :P
<charlie-tca> which browsers are non css3?
<knome> i'll make it look like ochosi's poop
<micahg> and of course if you guys find something not supported in Firefox, we'll work to get that fixed :)
<knome> charlie-tca, firefox <4, ie <9, ...
<knome> micahg, what about the full css3 spec? :P
<micahg> knome: if you get it finished and accepted, I'm sure Mozilla will add missing support :)
<charlie-tca> old ones, only? or will we be including midori, opera, etc in not looking good?
 * micahg isn't sure about webkit and CSS3
<knome> charlie-tca, i don't know that well. maybe micahg knows better. but as he said, css3 degrades gracefully, so no problem even if it looked awesome on ff4 & co :)
<micahg> knome: no, I didn't say that, I said that you should make sure whatever you add degrades gracefully :)
<micahg> err...I didn't mean to say that
<charlie-tca> I am more concerned with the ones it doesn' t look awesome on. We do want things working right, with midori, epiphany, firefox, etc, at least the later versions
<charlie-tca> If a user in lucid has issues with the site because the browser isn' t up-to-date enough, the site is not okay.
<knome> charlie-tca, no, css3 will degrade gracefully, so that's not a problem.
<charlie-tca> okay
<micahg> charlie-tca: mr_pouit how about switching evince for epdfview
<charlie-tca> does epdfview offer us anything?
<charlie-tca> What is the difference in using them, do we gain anything?
<micahg> well, evince pulls in gnome libs
<micahg> also, it's GTK3 now, epdfview is GTK2
<charlie-tca> but what about functionallity? If we are losing something, that would be bad. 
<micahg> evince does a lot more formats, but I wonder if anyone cares about them
<micahg> !info evince
<ubottu> evince (source: evince): Document (postscript, pdf) viewer. In component main, is optional. Version 2.32.0-0ubuntu12.1 (natty), package size 177 kB, installed size 668 kB
<charlie-tca> Oh, well, I am all for epdfview then! :)
<micahg> It can display and print
<micahg>  PostScript (PS), Encapsulated PostScript (EPS), DJVU, DVI and Portable
<micahg>  Document Format (PDF) files.
<micahg> do we care about anything but PDF?
<micahg> if no, then epdfview should be fine
<charlie-tca> They can install evince if they really want those. epdfview does let you read / print pdf files?
<micahg> yep
<charlie-tca> "pdf"  should be the key here
<charlie-tca> bluefish lets me read almost file, but it is not default either
<charlie-tca> It is kind of overkill for just a text editor
<astraljava> Hi. Network issues still continue from yesterday, so I'm gonna bail out and have some sleep instead. Tomorrow I need to call the support line and ask around, as I noticed from their service notifications that they made some big software updates on their network devices yesterday. Clearly something's bust.
<charlie-tca> micahg: no objection if mr_pouit agrees
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-17
<ochosi> hey everyone, feel free to check the latest version of greybird
<ochosi> i changed a few (mostly small) things
<ochosi> but it'd still be good to get some feedback
<ochosi> get it here: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird
<charlie-tca> ochosi: is that in Oneiric yet?
<ochosi> charlie-tca: no, not that i know of
<ochosi> charlie-tca: but you can test the pre-release (which makes it easier to change stuff for me)
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will try
<Unit193> I'll start testing again once they get a working CD...
<ochosi> thanks guys
<ochosi> most important thing is to find inconsistencies/bugs for the moment
<ochosi> basically the theme is stable, but a few points could still be improved
<charlie-tca> ochosi: download v2.1?
<ochosi> charlie-tca: just pull the latest version from git. the 2.1 tag was created already a while ago (i only create git version tags with "major" changes)
<charlie-tca> hm, the white on lighter gray is harder to read, at least in thunar
<charlie-tca> Thunar highlights the selection, in lighter gray, using white text.
<charlie-tca> Either the white has to be darker, or the gray needs to be darker
<knome> awwhhh: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Xubuntu-linux-unoffical/184449754904337
<mr_pouit> micahg: why not, I thought it was unmaintained upstream though.
<knome> hey mr_pouit 
<mr_pouit> hey knome 
<knome> just read omg!ubuntu and i already feel like my brain are melting
<micahg> hi mr_pouit 
<micahg> 2011-05-28: Released version 0.1.8. 
<micahg> which we even have in oneiric :)
<micahg> been two years between releases
<mr_pouit> yup, I read that
<mr_pouit> ok, so I can replace evince by epdfview in the seeds
<micahg> mr_pouit: k, sounds good, I guess if people complain, we can always switch back
<Unit193> charlie-tca: Looks like no Alt or Live CDs for today. I can't help the rest of this week as I will be in a place with only dial-up
<charlie-tca> The image we got is broken again/still. 
<astraljava> :(
<astraljava> Looks to be a Ubuntu Studio weekend for me, then.
<Unit193> And no log for Live
<charlie-tca> Note (The image); can count them on one finger today
<Unit193> I have the log location (that you linked me) bookmarked on this browser
<charlie-tca> hm, with the new wiki improvements, login is taking very long
<charlie-tca> and preferences are reverted to defaults
<charlie-tca> I wonder if I am still subscribed to any pages?
<Unit193> I got python errors...
<ochosi> charlie-tca: you said something about selection-colors yesterday, what were you referring to specifically? treeview-rows? elements in an icon-view?
<charlie-tca> ochosi: the highlight
<ochosi> charlie-tca: hightlight of what
<charlie-tca> it is a reverse color, gray with white text in thunar, email, everything
<charlie-tca> the line that shows what is selected at any time
<ochosi> ok, so the treeview-hightlight/selection is not contrasty enough for you?
<charlie-tca> might be a blue with white text
<ochosi> yep, it's blue
<ochosi> in fact i just turned the selected_bg_color a tad (really just a very tiny bit) brighter
<charlie-tca> When I look in thunar detail view, there is my selection highlighted. The background the text is displayed on is too bright
<charlie-tca> The tad was enough. It makes the white unreadable now
<ochosi> charlie-tca: are you around?
<charlie-tca> yes and no
<charlie-tca> in a meeting, but go ahead./
<ochosi> k, is the selection here more readable for you? http://imagebin.org/158748
<knome> yummy :)
<ochosi> i'm considering switching from dark-bg and bright-font in selections to the opposite
<ochosi> it would give a lighter feel to greybird as a whole
<charlie-tca> If the object of the highlight is to see the text, no
<charlie-tca> it still is harder to see than the other text
<charlie-tca> instead of lighter, go for better readability?
<ochosi> not sure the two are mutually exclusive
<ochosi> i just wanted to know whether this is readable enough, if not i'll just continue tweaking
<charlie-tca> try darkening the background?
<ochosi> i'd rather try the opposite, i'll post another screener in a few secs
<charlie-tca> lighter gray with black is good, if the background is dimmed some
<ochosi> yeah, that's the idea
<charlie-tca> Any way to make the white background a bit offwhite/blue/something?
<ochosi> yeah, i can make it a tad greyer/darker
<ochosi> that'd make it look softer
<ochosi> update: http://imagebin.org/158750
<charlie-tca> What about making the text blacker?
<charlie-tca> looks like grey on grey now?
<ochosi> it's blue on blue, but with a lot of contrast already, the dark blue is close to black
<charlie-tca> it makes the text harder to read
<ochosi> everything that's not black-on-white or white-on-black is potentially hard/er to read
<ochosi> ideally it would be good to read and look good
<charlie-tca> the white on blue we used in Natty is good
<ochosi> yeah, i can always get back to that
<charlie-tca> should be able to go black on the blue highlighter for good readability
<ochosi> but i'd prefer to try something new before
<charlie-tca> what if you changed the background (try a different shade of blue, maybe, with less gray in it)
<ochosi> oretty black now: http://imagebin.org/158751
<charlie-tca> better
<charlie-tca> sorry to be so difficult.
<ochosi> that's ok ;)
<ochosi> i mean if we find out that this idea doesn't work, i'll drop it
<ochosi> but i think i'll reduce a few contrasts, e.g. make the progress-bars and the button-prelights a bit lighter
<charlie-tca> Okay, I can test it
<charlie-tca> But you know I don't run high-quality monitors and video cards, right?
<charlie-tca> makes the low contrast much harder to use
<ochosi> mhm, that might be partly why it's so hard for you to read the stuff
<charlie-tca> but that should be true for most users, too, shouldn't it?
<charlie-tca> what about a slight tint of the entire white background? 
<ochosi> you mean something like this? http://imagebin.org/158755
<ochosi> (this is a different theme now, but it uses a greyish base color)
<charlie-tca> yeah, maybe not as much tint, but something to make the glare go down from a full white screen on a normal monitor. 
<ochosi> something like this? http://imagebin.org/158757
<ochosi> (we might have to change the scrollbar style if we darken this too much)
<charlie-tca> I think so, I would not darken it more than that
<charlie-tca> Might even go lighter on it. It only needs like 232 gray
<ochosi> http://imagebin.org/158761
<charlie-tca> That works! I can read the text in the highlight bar now
<ochosi> hm, didn't change anythink in the highlight-bar :)
<ochosi> must be psychological
<charlie-tca> exactly, it is the offwhite that takes the glare away
<charlie-tca> pure white makes it wash out.
<ochosi> hm, i'll have to think about that a while
<ochosi> if we do that i have to change the scrollbar-style and that is a pretty noticeable change to the theme's style
<charlie-tca> A slight background tint?
<ochosi> unfortunately the background-tint is not that easy with the current scrollbar-style
<ochosi> do we really need the scrollbar-arrows?
<charlie-tca> How do we scroll without them?
<charlie-tca> The scroll bar blends into the background now, without the arrows, it will disappear completely
<ochosi> usually people scroll by dragging the scrollbar
<ochosi> not by clicking the arrows
<ochosi> but anyway, we can keep the arrows
<charlie-tca> Maybe it is just me. I tend to click in the scrollbar area, to grab the bar itself
<ochosi> yep
<ochosi> but you don't click the arrows, do you?
<charlie-tca> but we could try taking the arrows away, and see what happens
<ochosi> yeah, i'm actually not sure about firefox and a few other non-gtk apps
<charlie-tca> I do, but very seldom. If I want to scroll one line at a time, I use the arrows
<ochosi> we'll see
<charlie-tca> Usually that is in the editors
<charlie-tca> I don' t think firefox needs arrows, does it?
<charlie-tca> I don't think I use them anywhere but in a text editor
<ochosi> mhm
<charlie-tca> ochosi: I think taking the arrows away will make for a cleaner interface, actually.
<ochosi> k, i'll try it
<ochosi> charlie-tca: still around?
<pleia2> he's doing a classroom session
<ochosi> oh ok, thanks
<astraljava> Is anyone in here running natty with gnome?
<ochosi> astraljava: sounds like you're in the wrong chan ;)
<micahg> astraljava: well, I'm running it with Unity
<astraljava> ochosi: I know. :) It was a desperate reaching to someone I thought might have a response. :)
<ochosi> charlie-tca: i changed quite a few things in greybird now, i'll push the changes in the course of the next few days and ping you about it
<ochosi> charlie-tca: i think all in all there are a lot of improvements, but maybe also a few more things i have to think about
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> Let me know when to grab again
<plantoschka> will greybird be default again in 11.10 ?
<charlie-tca> plantoschka: yes, that is the plan
<charlie-tca> with some refinements and fine-tuning
<plantoschka> great, love it
<charlie-tca> TheSheep: got the cache files cleared, moinmoin works with python 2.7! 
<charlie-tca> TheSheep: thank you very much for your help with that
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-18
<micahg> charlie-tca: can you approve a message to xubuntu-devel?
<charlie-tca> yes
<charlie-tca> Did you send already?
<micahg> yep
<charlie-tca> approved, micahg 
<micahg> charlie-tca: thanks
<charlie-tca> np
 * micahg hopes some people will test
<micahg> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-June/007830.html for those not on the ML
<micahg> charlie-tca: is it worth a meeting reminder for Sunday?
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> I forgot
<charlie-tca> I will send one, tonight
<micahg> k
<astraljava> People use Firefox still?! :D
<charlie-tca> Thanks for reminding me
<micahg> it's xubuntu's default :)
<charlie-tca> astraljava: yup, at least some of us old folks
<astraljava> Yeah yeah. :D
<astraljava> Sorry, a bit tipsy here. :)
<GridCube> sadly is not ff3 and its ff4 and will be 5 so... downgrading!
<micahg> ?
<astraljava> HUGE changes in life in the coming weeks, so needed to vent a little.
<charlie-tca> We'll just ignore you if you get too tipsy :)
<astraljava> I know. That's what people do. :D
<charlie-tca> Heh, sometimes it is necessary
<charlie-tca> I guess this expensive keyboard wasn't worth it after all. It can't spell no better than the old, cheap keyboard.
<astraljava> What's that, then?
<micahg> GridCube: I was wondering about your comment?
<astraljava> I got a Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse. Works great, though sometimes I have trouble finding the proper keys. It's a tad formed according to how palms rest on keyboards normally.
<astraljava> Ie. slightly bent outwards from the wrists.
<GridCube> oh, you know when stuff change micahg? and you dont like change? and you have to live whit programers thinking for you, taking options from you, eliminating menus, changing where options are "because they are better elsewhere" adding stuff just for the sake of adding stuff but that doenst really do anything good, i don't like that sort of stuff, thats why i didn't liked ff4, but then again i don't like when people change stuff that actually works
<GridCube>  "because it will be better" and then i just have to live whit that
<micahg> GridCube: heh, we're kinda stuck here
<micahg> this is the new world for browsers, rapid release
<micahg> GridCube: BTW, you can make firefox 4+ look almost like Firefox 3
<micahg> it'll just be faster and more secure
<GridCube> yes, i know, and for that i still like firefox, at least they dont force you to that "tab on top paradigm" that i really, really, really dislike, i don't think i am the only person in the world that uses a dock on the top side of the window, so if i go to the tabs, the dock will pop up and it will mess whit my tabs and stuff, and then if gods ever let me down and they follow that incredibly irracional trend that windows7 started of "one menu does
<GridCube>  all" i will simply stop using internet
<knome> yet another quick demo: http://temp.knome.fi/shimmer/imgcapt/
<GridCube> nice thingy
<charlie-tca> I don't like those orange dots all over :(
<knome> charlie-tca, did you try hovering them?
<charlie-tca> but I think I get the idea
<charlie-tca> yup, I like that part
<knome> well yeah, the dot part is completely customisable
<charlie-tca> I just don't like the orange color.
<charlie-tca> lol
<knome> it's just a png image sitting there
<charlie-tca> I do like what it does! It is great. Will the website have that, too?
<knome> well, if we want, we can have that
<knome> but we have to think about it, since we already have the installer slideshow, and the picslider i showed you earlier
<charlie-tca> Something to think about. I suppose we would have to tell users what to do.
<knome> i'm building this primarily for shimmer blog, we're going to set up some gmb "power user" tutorials
<charlie-tca> The picslider made me dizzy, with the fades.
<charlie-tca> You got some powerful stuff happening there.
<knome> mmh. this won't work in the frontpage though, as it obviously needs quite a lot of space
<charlie-tca> Okay. Just stick with slideshow and picslider, or even just the slideshow. It is very showy for a website.
<knome> i still haven't converted that :)
<knome> but i don't think that would work either on the frontpage
<charlie-tca> no, lightdm doesn't have icons in use yet. 
<knome> maybe we can work out an another transition for the "slides" that makes you feel less dizzy
<charlie-tca> The thing is not ready for users to customize, it is still being worked pretty hard just to get it to work.
<knome> though currently, the slide show time is quite slow already, so the effect doesn't happen too often
<knome> and you probably aren't looking at the frontpage for hours
<charlie-tca> MIght be. Otherwise, I will have to avoid the thing.
<charlie-tca> true, I don't look too often, either
<charlie-tca> I run the rss feed, so I get the news stuff
<knome> mmh, and when you (or anybody else) do, you probably click away quite fast
<charlie-tca> heh, sometimes
<knome> i didn't think that we'd include the slider in the rss feed, but now that you say it... ;)
<knome> (seriously i don't think if any rss reader even support js...)
<knome> s/think/know/
<charlie-tca> it isn' t
<knome> thunderbird just might.
<charlie-tca> but to read the news feed and other stuff, I just use the feed
<charlie-tca> I don' t go to the website to read the stuff, since it comes to me.
<knome> exactly.
<charlie-tca> I don' t think we want to send the slideshow to a feed
<charlie-tca> I guess then the dizzy factor goes way down, huh?
<knome> heh, of course we don't want it there
<knome> i was just thinking if it was technically possible
<charlie-tca> ah, okay
<knome> could be fun to send some js-enabled mail
<charlie-tca> I am sure there is a way, if you worked at it hard enough
<knome> though, wouldn't be that fun to receive one
<charlie-tca> I hate the mail with flash in it, or whatever that stuff they use now is.
<knome> i skip most mail anyway
<charlie-tca> There is very little chance I will read it unless it is plain text
<charlie-tca> Well, I guess I better go eat dinner
<knome> bon appetit
<charlie-tca> Good luck with the flashy stuff. It looks exciting!
<knome> i'll stay awake for some more, and then fall to bed
<knome> see you later
<knome> and thanks for the feedback, that's always welcome
<knome> charlie-tca, if you are still there, http://temp.knome.fi/shimmer/imgcapt/ is now updated!
<knome> moved to http://demo.knome.fi/imgcapt/
<knome> Guest61923, hello
<Guest61923> hello!
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> Am I the only person can NOT log in to https://wiki.ubuntu.com today?
<charlie-tca> I got it!
<charlie-tca> changing the theme on https://wiki.ubuntu.com creates a conflict at the server, and locks out the user
<charlie-tca> We have images, some of which at least are usable!
<charlie-tca> Still no Xubuntu Session when installing Oneiric - http://pad.lv/795575
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 795575 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-session unavailable for Oneiric" [High,Triaged]
<charlie-tca> 386 desktop image now has the Edubuntu slideshow! How interesting...
<charlie-tca> Installed using the cd menu, install Xubuntu
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: after installing, all images still won't login to a Xubuntu desktop. They are using Xfce sessions only.
<charlie-tca> 386 desktop does install Xubuntu, even if it gives the edubuntu slideshow today
<ochosi> charlie-tca: now i'm here
<charlie-tca> Good evening
<ochosi> is the question from #xubuntu still relevant? (didn't read the full log now9
<charlie-tca> starting thunderbird minimized?
<ochosi> think it was some theming question
<ochosi> you pinged me at the time
<charlie-tca> no, knome took care of the person
<ochosi> ah ok, good
<ochosi> btw, i think i succeeded in coming up with a cool new scrollbar-style
<charlie-tca> Better than what Unity did, right?
<ochosi> yeah, i think it's nicer looking than our current greybird-scrollbar
<ochosi> it's without arrows
<charlie-tca> sorry, really hate trying to hit that scrollbar in Unity
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> This black scrollbar in terminal is starting to drive me nuts
<mr_pouit> hey there
<charlie-tca> Hello, mr_pouit 
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: sure, because I didn't upload any fix ;>
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> What about the edubuntu slideshow?
<charlie-tca> and why is that on Xubuntu cd's?
<mr_pouit> ah, that I don't know
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> At least we did get images, and they are xubuntu today
<charlie-tca> Now we get to try and keep them, right?
<charlie-tca> um, by the way, I can not make any changes to wiki.ubuntu.com, since I can not log in now
<ochosi> hey lionel
<mr_pouit> same here, I can't even log in anymore
<mr_pouit> this update was a great improvement
<mr_pouit> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> :}
<charlie-tca> I just sent an email to rt requesting they update the meeting page for me.
<charlie-tca> I will probably just keep sending requests per:
<charlie-tca> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-June/000859.html
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I sent two tickets to rt already for the login issue. no response
<charlie-tca> Meeting will be Sunday at 22:00 UTC. Agenda in email, since wiki can not be changed
<knome> yay for fixing the wiki
<knome> ;)
<charlie-tca> :(
<charlie-tca> It' s faster now, though! and I have no errors trying to update it (of course, I can not log in either)
 * charlie-tca thinks he is on the RT hate mail list, too, now
<knome> maybe you now start to see my negative POV against the IS as well as the canonicl bureaucracy
<knome> it's not irrational negativiness
<charlie-tca> +1
<charlie-tca> but we can't let it keep us from using stuff, can we?
 * charlie-tca has hopes yet to be able to use the wiki
<knome> well, we can't let them make stuff happen slowly either. let me remind you, it took over two years to do a simple redirection from x.com to x.org
<knome> it is slowing the whole team down, and as we have limited resources, that's a bad thing, especially if we are pending on stuff like that
<charlie-tca> yeah, now x.com and x.net are missing again
<charlie-tca> heh
<knome> awwwh
<knome> we'll probably get them up by 2014 if you file an RT ticket right away
<pleia2> charlie-tca: updated wiki
<charlie-tca> You can login?
<pleia2> eryeah
<pleia2> oh, forgot the header thing
<pleia2> there
<pleia2> ok, heading out now
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> nice work in #x, knome 
<knome> heh, no problem
<knome> bbl ->
<knome> charlie-tca, are you sure you want to let keepingdreams.com die?
<knome> charlie-tca, did you file a ticket in the RT yet for the .com and .net domains?
<charlie-tca> no, pleia2 did that one
<charlie-tca> keepingdreams.com?
<charlie-tca> It is good until september yet, isn' t it?
<knome> i mean the content part and all
<knome> i can't see the new ticket in rt yet, but that's probably not public yet then
<charlie-tca> I don' t know yet. It doesn't seem very up-to-date. Maybe I should turn it into a blog on it's own, but I am bad at that blog thing
<knome> maybe try something really "light" blogging
<knome> a light theme that doesn't shout for long articles
<knome> just a few sentences now and then
<charlie-tca> and you think I can manage that?
<knome> why not?
<charlie-tca> so, maybe something once a month or so will work?
<knome> sure
<charlie-tca> That's a good idea then. I will have to seriously think about it.
<knome> but if you are going with the short articles, you can probably easily write at least twice a month, especially when we are nearing a release
<knome> the last article in my blog is from may 10, and that's not awfully far away - yet
<knome> sometimes you just update slower
<charlie-tca> I guess maybe. ;)
<charlie-tca> You might have a really good idea there for me
<knome> mm-hmm.
<knome> then just spice that idea up with a really really clean and basic theme
<knome> http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/platform
<knome> http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/clear
<Pjotr> Hello, I have a feature request for Xubuntu
<Pjotr> The default screensaver should be black screen, not random
<Pjotr> Because some screensavers cause crashes on some hardware
<Pjotr> The default screensaver should be failsafe, i.e. black screen
<Pjotr> It would be an important improvement, because I think Xubuntu has become so good, that it'll be the Next Big Thing. The ideal alternative for those who miss Gnome 2 in October
<Pjotr> Therefore I think it's important to remove a paper cut like this screensaver default
<mr_pouit> could you file a bug on launchpad against xubuntu-default-settings? otherwise it's likely to be forgotten ;-)
<Pjotr> Will do. Thanks for replying. :-)
<charlie-tca> Gonna be growing pains? or is it just pain in the ???
<Pjotr> @mr_pouit: I just filed a bug report like you suggested: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/799268
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 799268 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu: default screensaver should be black screen, not random" [Undecided,New]
<mr_pouit> thanks
<GridCube> :P how do i second?
<GridCube> clik on "this problem affects 1 person, does it affect you?" and say yes? XD
<Pjotr> @mr_pouit: you're welcome. Keep up the good work, Xubuntu has become a great distro!
<Pjotr> @GridCube: Tx for the support.
<Pjotr> Have to go now. Bye all.
<charlie-tca> Yes, GridCube 
<GridCube> :D done
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-19
<ochosi> charlie-tca: ping
<GridCube> happy fathers day to all the father here :D
<knome> mind you, it's not fathers day today all over the world ;)
<GridCube> :P but is here, is that bad to congratulate people?
<knome> nope, just pointing out that the date of fathers day varies across the globe
<knome> for example, it's in november in finland
<charlie-tca> ochosi: pong
<knome> charlie-tca, just went
<charlie-tca> I don't know how to make weechat show aways
<knome> /whois nick ?
<charlie-tca> I will try. But it seems like a lot to have to do that everytime you want to talk to someone. Xchat shows them in the nick list
<knome> tbh, i don't look at away messages much too
<knome> just knew he went since he just said "bye" :)
<knome> (@#shimmer)
<pleia2> I just talk to people anyway :)
<charlie-tca> heh, that works too
<pleia2> they'll probably see my message eventually
<charlie-tca> That' s what I been doing lately
<charlie-tca> Using weechat because xchat won't let dasher enter a line, it is quite different
<knome> oh, somebody is actually using dasher
<charlie-tca> Many of us do use it, we just don' t tell anyone
<knome> heh
<charlie-tca> You can usually tell by my tying speed
<knome> that doesn't tell anything
<knome> one could think i'm using the 10-finger system, but i'm not
<knome> (well, sometimes the typing is slower though...)
<charlie-tca> I think my response time is slower with dasher
<charlie-tca> Next step though is learning to use dasher to replace all the keyboard, instead of just the typing
<Pjotr> Hello, I have a question about the package xubuntu-restricted-extras
<Pjotr> In Xubuntu 11.04, this doesn't contain Java
<Pjotr> Should I post this on Launchpad as a feature request or as a bug report?
<Pjotr> In the description of the package xubuntu-restricted-extras in Synaptic, it wrongly claims that it does contain Java
<charlie-tca> bug report 
<Pjotr> Will do. :-)
<Pjotr> Done: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-restricted-extras/+bug/799514
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 799514 in ubuntu-restricted-extras (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-restricted-extras doesn't contain Java" [Undecided,New]
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 60 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<micahg> charlie-tca: wiki is offline, so idk if you need extra time to pull your agenda together
<charlie-tca> heh, I haven' t been able to login since the latest change on the 16th
<charlie-tca> Are you gonna chair today?
<charlie-tca> I have a peronal moinmoin running, with a copy of the agenda
<micahg> charlie-tca: wasn't planning on it
<charlie-tca> Aw, com'n
<micahg> the chair doesn't fit me well :)
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> I remember when I said something similar
<DarkEra> charlie-tca, didn't you sent the agenda to the mailing list too with the reminder?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> Are ready to begin
<charlie-tca> Welcome to the weekly xubuntu commity meeting
<charlie-tca> We keep the agenda at
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> however, due to problems with the wiki, it is:
<charlie-tca>  * Old business - all
<charlie-tca>   * Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU
<charlie-tca>  * Team updates - Team Leads
<charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca>    * Changes to the default applications
<charlie-tca>   * Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca>    * Daily testing versus milestone testing
<charlie-tca>   * Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca>    * There is a current discussion on the xubuntu-devel mailing list
<charlie-tca>   * Artwork
<charlie-tca>   * Documentation
<charlie-tca>  * Announcements - Project Lead
<charlie-tca>  * Governance structure - all
<charlie-tca>   * The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at [[Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu Governance & Team Structure]]
<charlie-tca>  * Any Other Business - all/anyone
<charlie-tca> I forgot to dig up the xscreensaver info
<charlie-tca> so, lets go ahead with the teams
<charlie-tca> Team updates - Team Leads
<charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit or micahg : your turn
<mr_pouit> I can do it ;>
 * charlie-tca nods
<micahg> hi mr_pouit 
<mr_pouit> less changes this week I think, only replaced evince by epdfview as discussed a few days ago
<mr_pouit> then a few merges/syncs from Debian by micahg and me
<ochosi> so we generally have to kick out most of the gnome-stuff now due to dependency issues?
<xrdodrx> what's happening with GTK3 in Xubuntu 11.10?
<charlie-tca> it is easier than fighting with gnome3 and gtk3 if we don' t have to
<mr_pouit> well, let's see what happens, if epdfview is too crappy, we can still go back to evince-gtk
<xrdodrx> those packages are still going to be in main and will be installed by end-users, though...
<charlie-tca> Users can still install any application, it will pull in the required dependencies and recommends it needs
<charlie-tca> We don't have to that by default though
<ochosi> mr_pouit: really wasn't meant as critique but as an honest question, how much/what will we have to potentially drop in the worst case?
<mr_pouit> it's very likely we'll still have gtk+3.0 shipped anyway
<micahg> xrdodrx: GTK3 itself will probably be on the CD due to some shared apps, but Xfce is staying on GTK2 through 4.10, so Xubuntu's default will be GTK2 through the LTS
<charlie-tca> Thank you, mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> anything else for you?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: isn't yelp used by some of the applications still?
<mr_pouit> ochosi: I think most "common" tools will be ported to gtk3, so we'd have to drop them as well, not really what we want
<micahg> yelp is a good example
<mr_pouit> (yeah, for instance, yelp is already ported)
<xrdodrx> micahg, I see, but there's really no avoiding GTK3 in the long run ;)
<charlie-tca> However, as announced several times, Xubuntu will not push gtk3 more than needed
<micahg> xrdodrx: no, definitely not, and it's not GTK3 so much as the GNOME deps related to GTK3 apps
<mr_pouit> we won't port 4.8 to gtk3 for the fun ;-)
<charlie-tca> xrdodrx: but the long run for us in about 12.10
<charlie-tca> or later
<micahg> right, if Xfce sticks with the year release cycles, it'll be 13.04 before Xubuntu is GTK3
<charlie-tca> The less we have to fight gnome applications, the better off we are
<xrdodrx> GTK3 and GTK2 have to be themed separately, so it's not going to be a simple thing, I'm sure.
<micahg> xrdodrx: no, we can have a GTK3 theme used by both
<micahg> the desktop team has a theming engine that I believe we can use as well
<charlie-tca> Any other questions?
<micahg> \o
<charlie-tca> go ahead, micahg 
<micahg> mr_pouit: I noticed that xubuntu-restricted-extras still ships icedtea6-plugin, is this something worth moving to the default recommends (i.e. how important is Java in the default browser experience (it's in main, so no need to be in restricted-extras anymore)
 * GridCube is here for the meeting
<mr_pouit> do you know what ubuntu-desktop  is doing?
<mr_pouit> I guess moving it into the seeds is safe
<micahg> well, it's still in restricted extras for the moment
<micahg> I want to talk to mvo tomorrow about it
<charlie-tca> java is already removed from the package, but the description needs to be updated
<micahg> although I doubt Ubuntu will take it due to space concers
<micahg> *concerns
<micahg> charlie-tca: no, it has openjdk
<charlie-tca> it does?
<charlie-tca> http://pad.lv/799514
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 799514 in ubuntu-restricted-extras (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-restricted-extras doesn't contain Java" [Undecided,New]
<micahg> aka icedtea6-plugin
<charlie-tca> oh
<micahg> yes, that's what prompted this thinking
<charlie-tca> which will pull in openjre or openjdk?
<micahg> it's in xubuntu-restricted-addons which is a depends of the restricted-extras
<micahg> charlie-tca: openjdk
<micahg> we can decide later if we have the space to do it
<micahg> I just wanted to bring it up early
<charlie-tca> Let's find out what Ubuntu is going to do with it, then
<micahg> like I said, I doubt they'll take it due to space concerns
<charlie-tca> ACTION - micahg to find what Ubuntu-desktop does with java in restricted-extras
<charlie-tca> Don't want to just let it drop
<charlie-tca> TOPIC - Bugs and Testing
<charlie-tca> We have images again! We can start testing tomorrow, We just pick up at the 19th on the chart
 * micahg would like to bring up https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-June/007830.html
<charlie-tca> well, 20th, tomorrow
<charlie-tca> As far as I know, the live desktop is broken
<micahg> sorry, should've waited
 * micahg thought some fixes landed on Friday to fix that
<charlie-tca> Maybe for Ubuntu, but we did not get them
<charlie-tca> micahg brings up a valid point. Call For Testing: Natty Firefox users
<charlie-tca> We need to test firefox in natty ASAP
<xrdodrx> I'm one, and can definitely test this :D
<charlie-tca> See the reference micahg gave above
<xrdodrx> I'm reading it right now :)
<charlie-tca> If you need help, let us know.
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, Ubuntu gets the image fixes first. We usually have to go back and push to get them in our images
<charlie-tca> Any questions for bugs and testing?
<GridCube> i can test tomorrow
<charlie-tca> great!
<charlie-tca> TOPIC - Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca> pleia2, knome, plantoschka 
<charlie-tca> you guys are up now
<GridCube> can i say something?
<charlie-tca> Well, then
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> go ahead, GridCube 
<GridCube> i would like that in the main xubuntu site there where a FAQ of simple tasks, like "how to listen music?" or stuff like that, but on various idioms, like spaÃ±ish, english and so on
<GridCube> i don't really know how to set that up, but i will be willing to translate a simple like "Top ten questions" on spaÃ±ish
<xrdodrx> micahg, I think I found a small error in your instructions, you recommend doing sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade but sudo apt-get upgrade is probably the way to go :)
<xrdodrx> (concerning testing firefox 5 on Xubuntu Natty)
<micahg> xrdodrx: nope, won't upgrade the langpacks
<xrdodrx> oh, okay
<charlie-tca> pleia2 or knome : Is such a thing possible as GridCube proposes possible on the website?
<ochosi> i second GridCube's idea/s, but not sure who'll do the work ;)
<plantoschka> GridCube, sounds good
<charlie-tca> xrdodrx: sudo apt-get upgrade does not pull in a lot of stuff that needs to upgrade
<charlie-tca> ACTION - investigate putting the "TOP 10" in spanish on the website
<xrdodrx> guess I'll have to redo it as dist-upgrade, then, unless there's a way to cancel apt-get during the downloads process
<micahg> xrdodrx: yep, you can just CTRL+C
<charlie-tca> GridCube: you would translate it, right? 
<xrdodrx> micahg, alright, I hesitate to do that to any package manager ;)
<charlie-tca> If we have a translation, it is relatively minor to simply publish it on the website
<xrdodrx> I could probably assist GridCube with this, I speak native English and am quite proficient (I'd say, at least ;) ) in Spanish
<xrdodrx> it might be good too have a starter's guide on the website :D
<charlie-tca> GridCube: who puts the list together?
<charlie-tca> Do you have things in mind already, or do we need to gather stuff to be translated?
<charlie-tca> xrdodrx: What about using VirtualBox to run it, so it stays separate from your installation?
<xrdodrx> charlie-tca, it's no trouble at all
<charlie-tca> TOPIC - Artwork
<charlie-tca> ochosi: your turn
<ochosi> k, well as most of you know there's a git-repo for greybird
<xrdodrx> charlie-tca, I often find it's better to test software on real hardware, and if it's on my install I'll def be testing it quite a bit ;)
<ochosi> recently i've been testing a few noticeable changes to greybird
<ochosi> in the beginning i thought i'd just do a few additional styles for specific apps, but now i think the theme will change a bit for our next release
<ochosi> i'm still very much in the experimenting/testing phase
<ochosi> so feel free to pull the theme every once in a while and test it
<ochosi> i'm very happy to get feedback, but please don't start shouting too loud because of changes i make in git
<charlie-tca> xrdodrx: then you need to become familiar with sudo apt-get dist-upgrade, since apt-get upgrade won't upgrade the kernel, either.
<ochosi> i don't consider much in the current state is 'final'
<charlie-tca> ochosi: can you give the URL, please
<ochosi> the general feel of the theme is supposedly lighter though
<ochosi> sure, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird
<xrdodrx> charlie-tca, I'm sorry, forgive that error on my part, I didn't really understand the difference totally, all I had to do was cancel the upgrade and redo it as dist-upgrade :)
<GridCube> charlie-tca, sorry for the delay, yes i will help translate
<ochosi> instructions of how to clone the repo and keep it up-to-date are on that page as well
<charlie-tca> Are the changes working for both oneiric and natty?
<xrdodrx> I'm using FF 5 now
<ochosi> charlie-tca: are you asking me?
<charlie-tca> yes, ochosi 
<ochosi> it's a bit noisy here atm :)
<charlie-tca> sorry
<ochosi> at the moment those changes are *only* tested with natty
<ochosi> oneiric is still too unstable for me
<ochosi> the gtk3 port of greybird is only a draft
<GridCube> charlie-tca, i don't really know what are the top 10 questions on #xubuntu mabye the moving the panels, using compiz, and i dont know what else
<charlie-tca> So, we can have testers pull in the new theme. They can try it on either natty or oneiric.
<ochosi> yep
<charlie-tca> GridCube: Let's take it to the xubuntu-devel mailing list, then. 
<charlie-tca> ochosi: sorry. 
<GridCube> :)
<charlie-tca> Have you got anything else we want to know?
<charlie-tca> ochosi: ^ ^
<charlie-tca> ]please let him finish now, guys
<ochosi> good question, well, are there any questions? ;)
<charlie-tca> o/
<GridCube> o/
<ochosi> k, one at a time
<charlie-tca> go ahead, GridCube 
<GridCube> will there be a proper *places* menu on the basic panels?
<micahg> places has returned in oneiric
<GridCube> oh. sorry for asking then
<ochosi> micahg: what do you mean? does it not depend on thunar-vfs anymore or is it part of the default panel config now?
<charlie-tca> The question is will the art team include it on a panel, or will we keep thunar?
<micahg> ochosi: it does not
<charlie-tca> It is still a plugin, to be added. It no longer depends on thunar-vfs.
<mr_pouit> the gio patch has been included, and we put it back in the default package set
<ochosi> ok, that sounds good
<mr_pouit> but it's not in the default panel config
<ochosi> well we haven't discussed panel configs for oneiric at all yet
<ochosi> i'd say we should start by evaluating what we currently have
<charlie-tca> +1
<ochosi> (and check the reviews for feedback)
<charlie-tca> Want to take it up next meeting?
<micahg> mr_pouit: ah, sorry, thought you put it back in the default config
<charlie-tca> ACTION - GridCube to begin a discussion on the ML about what should be translated
<mr_pouit> micahg: oh no, if I change the default config without discussion, too many people will want to kill me (at least charlie-tca and ochosi ;D)
<GridCube> i'm not part of the mailing list
<ochosi> charlie-tca: tbh this week is a bit busy for me, not sure i'll manage to check reviews. if anyone else could do it i'm fine with discussing it
<charlie-tca> Let's do it on the ML, then?
<charlie-tca> Get more people involved in it, maybe, without taking a bunch of time here?
<charlie-tca> ACTION - start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I leave it to ochosi with my moaning to help guide it :)
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> i mean just to be straight-forward: i'm fine with the current setup
<ochosi> i like it a lot
<GridCube> o/
<charlie-tca> go ahead, GridCube 
<GridCube> on the artwork things, can it be made that lightgdm uses the same wallpaper that xubuntu session uses? or an easy way to fix it up?
<charlie-tca> yes, it can be made easy to fix it
<charlie-tca> It already is, tbh
<ochosi> :)
<GridCube> :P that could be part of the top 10 questions 
<ochosi> lightDM theming will be dealt with as soon as i start testing/workin on oneiric
<ochosi> which is pretty soon
<ochosi> same goes for gtk3
<charlie-tca> I have mine themed to the desktop wallpaper already
<ochosi> charlie-tca: what was your question?
<GridCube> on that same topic, what about user avatars?
<charlie-tca> harder
<charlie-tca> We have to see what our front-end brings in
<GridCube> okay
<charlie-tca> ochosi: any kind of time estimate to pull the new themes for testing? 
<charlie-tca> Like, weekly, two-weeks, anything?
<ochosi> you mean to oneiric?
<xrdodrx> I imagine that once LightDM gets included in default Ubuntu there will be many GUI front-ends to customizing it, GridCube 
<charlie-tca> from git
<charlie-tca> As a general guide, should a tester pull from git every two weeks or ???
<ochosi> hm, tbh my work-schedule is not so clear that i could give you real guidance
<micahg> xrdodrx: lightdm is already the default in Ubuntu
<ochosi> maybe it's best to check my commit messages
<ochosi> if there is something noteworthy i usually write it down
<xrdodrx> micahg, for natty?
<ochosi> so maybe check every week or every other week
<xrdodrx> I meant for oneiric :)
<micahg> xrdodrx: oneiric
<ochosi> right now is definitely a good time
<ochosi> to pull and test the theme
<charlie-tca> Okay testers! pull the new themes every two weeks and test it in either natty or oneiric unless we tell you pull it sooner
<charlie-tca> and this week would be a great time to pull it, within a day or two, if possible!
<GridCube> :) will do
<ochosi> feedback would be best directed directly to me
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much, ochosi 
<ochosi> either via email or on irc
<ochosi> no
<ochosi> problem
<charlie-tca> Any other questions for things covered so far?
<charlie-tca> If not, we have a couple of Announcements
<charlie-tca> TOPIC - Announcements
<charlie-tca> Debian Import Freeze: June 30
<charlie-tca> 10.04.3 Freeze: June 30
<charlie-tca> Oneiric Alpha 2: July 7
<charlie-tca> Testing for Alpha2: July 5
<charlie-tca> The wiki is causing a few headaches after the latest change.
<charlie-tca> Please file bugs and issues with it according to the announcement:
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-11
<ochosi> knome: even though the rendering of the active-button might not be 100% perfect, i think it looks kinda ok already: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06112012-103912am.php
<knome> mmh
<knome> again, quite contrasty
<ochosi> that's the normal "pressed" state of buttons
<ochosi> i just pixmapped it
<ochosi> and fwiw, it's just as "contrasty" in current greybird master
<ochosi> :}
<ochosi> what probably makes it look more contrasty/focused is the fact that the font of the active item is bold
<ochosi> which is kinda inconsistent with all other buttons
<knome> mm
<ochosi> knome: i never felt that the pressed-state was too contrasty in greybird, i guess you gotta look at the whole thing in context
<ochosi> this screenshot was mainly to show what the pressed-state looks like in that arrow-shape
<knome> probably
<ochosi> any thoughts on this style of open windows + hover color? http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06112012-120118pm.php
<mr_pouit> o hai
<mr_pouit> micahg: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.quantal/view/head:/ship#L68
<mr_pouit> micahg: so should we drop that then?
<mr_pouit> micahg: I guess there was a good reason, but the TB ml hasn't any pre-2009 archive =]
<micahg> mr_pouit: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/01/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t09:00
<csenger41> hello
<baizon> hi hi
<ochosi> csenger41: i have no clue how that would work in chromium, if you can submit a patch it's definitely worth a shot
<csenger41> ochosi: as far as I remember, it was something about the window decorator
<csenger41> but I'm gonna look after it again
<ochosi> good
<csenger41> i gtg now, writin the results as soon as I have any news about the window buttons
<csenger41> :)
<csenger41> by
<csenger41> *bye
<ochosi> guess it's so silent here today cause everyone watched either euro2012 or wwdc :}
 * pleia2 just has a lot of work
<pleia2> wwdc happens a block away from where I live, it makes for an unpleasant traffic week around here :)
<pleia2> (though admittedly not as bad as the big oracle conference each year)
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> have to say i'm amazed at how much apple pushes integration of their products and os's
<GridCube> this bug really needs attention: Bug 775117
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 775117 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Thunar hangs on first launch of each session" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/775117
<csenger41> hello
<csenger41> please someone tell me where is the window button layout setting stored in XFCE?
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-12
<GridCube> if you place themes to ~/.local/share/themes they dont work, if you place them in /usr/share/themes they do
<knome> GridCube, ~/.themes
<GridCube> aaaaaaaa
<knome> anybody been following the discussion in the xubuntu-users list?
<GridCube> im not in that list
<knome> if it's not too much to ask, please join; it's usually not too high traffic
<knome> during this cycle we should get more moderators for that list anyway.
<GridCube> knome, i cant find a link to the mailing list for users on xubuntu.org, theres only one to the devel list
<knome> GridCube, try "help and support"
<GridCube> ah
<GridCube> i see 
<GridCube> i was looking for it in get involved
<knome> ;)
<knome> why would it be there?
<knome> anyway, bbl, going to eat soon
<GridCube> i don't know :/
<knome> use your brain, please
<knome> :P
<hobgoblin> knome: which discussion ?
<knome> "you have got to be kidding me"
<hobgoblin> if it's the 'you;ve got to be joking' one
<hobgoblin> aah yes - send them to the forum - I will ban them
<hobgoblin> troll is troll
<knome> is it completely out of scope, or is it kind of ontopic?
<ochosi> knome: link to the email/s?
<knome> i noticed there was a message about religious stuff, but i didn't see much on that subject, just a reference
<knome> ochosi, see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2012-June/thread.html
<GridCube> i don't see why someone will care about obvious trolling
<hobgoblin> people keep answering GridCube 
<knome> yes, people keep answering and mails will keep appearing in inboxes
<GridCube> well then some moderator should tell people to calm down
<knome> i don't want the list traffic to be complete nonsense
<hobgoblin> how to stop it though
<knome> there was only that one really bogus/troll email from the OP
<ochosi> ok, read the original post, i'm definitely not reeding further
<knome> ochosi, the OP got better.
<knome> ochosi, the rest of the guys started trolling.
<knome> bbl, dinne ->
<knome> +r
<ochosi> a-ha, well anyway, i'm not interested :)
<hobgoblin> it was all a bit sad really
<ochosi> yeah, i would guess so
<GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1012257
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1012257 in firefox (Ubuntu) "Firefox 13 freezes the whole computer when bookmarks are dragged on xubuntu 12.04" [Undecided,New]
<micahg> GridCube: hrm, I didn't get that when I did it in unity
<micahg> GridCube: does it happen in safe mode?
<GridCube> how do i enable safemode?
<GridCube> micahg, i started firefox -safe-mode
<GridCube> draged a few bookmarks after the other a few times and it happened again
<GridCube> it happened at like the tenth drag
<micahg> hrm
<GridCube> but im not sure that safe mode was actually enabled
<micahg> GridCube: if safe mode was enabled, you'll get a dialog about safe mode on launch
<GridCube> nope, didnt got that
<GridCube> ok, got safe mode to work, no difference
<GridCube> micahg, i can replicate the bug in my netbook fairly easy even with -safe-mode
<micahg> GridCube: hrm, what about in a new profile (firefox -P)
<GridCube> same results
<GridCube> added a bunch of random bookmarks, tried to drag them to the new new tab page, whole system froze
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-13
<ochosi> morning everyone
<hobgoblin> morning ochosi 
<hobgoblin> you know anything about lightdm and setting sessions, if you do someone could use your help :)
<ochosi> hmm
<ochosi> well generally i think you need to create a session file and then set a session in lightdm.conf
<ochosi> but i could be wrong, has been a while since i set up my own sessions
<knome> madnick knows more about lightdm
 * ochosi thinks it's not lightdm specific
<hobgoblin> I have fluxbox - did sudo /usr/lib/lightdm/lightdm-set-defaults -s fluxbox - that sets lightdm.conf ok, it also made no difference - fiddled with .dmrc to change that - that failed as well
 * hobgoblin gave up :)
<ochosi> hobgoblin: i think you need something like: /usr/share/xsessions/xubuntu.desktop
<ochosi> for fluxbox
<hobgoblin> I got a fluxbox.desktop
<hobgoblin> but no matter - wasn't for me :)
<ochosi> quick reminder: there's a xubuntu team meeting today (15:00 UTC)
<astraljava> Oh cr*p, gotta run to the grocery store now instead of after the QA meeting.
<knome> astraljava, heh. :)
<knome> Xubuntu community meeting in about 50 mins at #xubuntu-devel. Everybody is welcome! Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<astraljava> knome: Is the next meeting's agenda always on that page?
<knome> astraljava, yup.
<astraljava> 'k, thanks.
<knome> astraljava, after the meeting, the chair updates the minutes and the "prev meeting", and empties the agenda
<knome> (or leaves the items that are carried on, but you get the idea)
<astraljava> Sounds like a good process.
<knome> well, it works.
<knome> you don't have to edit *too many pages*
<astraljava> knome: Just a quick check, am I correct in not seeing any real updates recently?
<knome> yup, that's correct
<astraljava> Well, my seeing is not the part that needs a reality check. :D
<knome> heh :)
<astraljava> Ok, thanks.
 * astraljava tries to pay more attention from now on.
<knome> i'm expecting things to start rolling soonish, hopefully our meeting at sunday clears some things up
<astraljava> It's been a helluva spring/early summer
<knome> well, things should be reported at the meetings
<astraljava> Sunday?
<knome> so that should be relatively easy
<knome> xubuntu QA?
<astraljava> Oh yeah, that.
<knome> what time was that again, btw? :P
<astraljava> I was thinking the Team meeting.
<knome> not that i ever forget any times.
<astraljava> Well I don't know, for some reason it's not visible in my google cal at the moment. Let me get back to you on that one.
<knome> awwh :D
<knome> pleia2!
<knome> hey GridCube 
<GridCube> hi knome :)
<GridCube> sup?
<knome> meeting in 30
<knome> nothing much else up ;)
<GridCube> :D i know
<GridCube> :D good to know
<Cynic> Ð¥Ð°!!! ÐÐ°Ð·Ð³ÑÐ» Ñ Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð¸... :-)
<knome> !en
<ubottu> The #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #xubuntu channels are English only. For a complete list of channels in other languages, please visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList
<knome> humph, goes for -devel too
<Cynic> Sorry!!!
<knome> no problem
<astraljava> Err... ok, for some reason, I'm not seeing the QA meeting for X anymore.
<astraljava> I wonder what happened.
<astraljava> pleia2: HALP!
<knome> so, who's here for the meeting?
<GridCube> o/
<ochosi> have to run now :(
<knome> see you ochosi 
<knome> madnick_ also told he's not able to make it today
<bluesabre_> I'm around
<knome> hey bluesabre_ :)
<ochosi> but: on the subject of compositor by default: i'm for keeping it on. haven't had (m)any complaints about it
<ochosi> the only bug i know is from ubiquity installer
<knome> ochosi, we'll probably postpone any decisions to next meeting anyway
<knome> ochosi, regarding that, i mean
<ochosi> mhm, just wanted to tell you what i think quickly :)
<ochosi> seey'all!
<knome> yop
<bluesabre_> seeya ochosi
<knome> astraljava, micahg, mr_pouit, pleia2, Unit193: you around?
<astraljava> o/
<knome> and others too, of course (just pinging team members)
<hobgoblin> :)
<knome> seems like we don't have quite as good attendance as hoped for, but anyway
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 13 15:00:21 2012 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting
<knome> #action pleia2 and knome to work on marketing products
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 and knome to work on marketing products
<knome> #action pleai2 to raise publicity on triaging, testing and docs
<meetingology> ACTION: pleai2 to raise publicity on triaging, testing and docs
<knome> -typo :)
<knome> that was it for the action items, there's nothing special going on there, still need to get working!
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> #subtopic Development
<knome> #info Some work done to get Xfce 4.10 in Quantal
<knome> #subtopic Quality Assurance
<knome> astraljava, your stage
<knome> (please use #info)
<astraljava> #info Some work was done recently to enhance the testing docs, I will dig up the link to those in a minute. The testcases were sanitized, and should now be easier to follow was non-regulars as well.
<astraljava> #info Since Xubuntu did not do an Alpha-1, we haven't used the new tracker much, yet. We should pick up on that now, though.
<GridCube> :) i zsynked the images yesterday
<knome> #info https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers is now an *open* team, no need to add your information on the wiki anymore.
<astraljava> #info There's an upcoming QA meeting this Sunday, I will post info about it on the mailing lists after this meeting.
<knome> #action astraljava to send information on the Xubuntu QA meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to send information on the Xubuntu QA meeting
<astraljava> bah... you beat me to it.
<xacobe> hi
<astraljava> ..
<knome> :)=
<knome> xacobe, hello
<knome> i suppose that's it
<knome> #info The testers should try to make the QA meeting on Sunday to organize
<knome> #subtopic Marketing, Promotion and Artwork
<knome> #info Some improvements done for Greybird, more information later
<knome> #action ochosi to send more information on Greybird and a request for feedback to ML
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to send more information on Greybird and a request for feedback to ML
<GridCube> can i paste what ochosi said?
<knome> GridCube, the thing about compositor is on the agenda, not WIP
<knome> GridCube, (it's a new item)
<knome> GridCube, but if it's something that's WIP, go ahead :)
<knome> (i mean, if it's something else)
<GridCube> :) no, it was that
<knome> okay, let's go forward
<knome> #subtopic General updates
<knome> #info knome has been working on the Strategy Document review, more info soon
<knome> #action knome to send information about the revised Strategy Document to ML soon
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to send information about the revised Strategy Document to ML soon
<knome> is there anything else?
<knome> #info All blueprints are now in place, start your engines!
<GridCube> i have a comment but goes more to the meetings part
<knome> ok, let's discuss that there then :)
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> #subtopic Changes in chairing the meetings
<knome> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008239.html
<knome> #info The change described in the mail will take place now
<GridCube> that was what i wanted to comment :) i like that
<GridCube> we should enforce it to happen, meetings are extremely important to me
<knome> #info Basically, any team lead can chair a meeting; if the project lead or any team lead is not available, an informal meeting should take place, and the main points sent to the ML
<knome> #subtopic Changes to the Testing lead position
<knome> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008242.html
<knome> #info Since there has been no objections against the mail, the change takes place now
<knome> #info Janne Jokitali (astraljava) is the new Xubuntu QA lead
<knome> ...aaaand for the records, it's Jokitalo (will fix that in the minutes)
<knome> astraljava, congrats!
<astraljava> *smirk*
<astraljava> Danke.
<knome> is there any announcements any team leads (including new ones) would like to shout out?
<knome> #subtopic Other announcements
<astraljava> From QA: a small addition.
<knome> (again, use #info :))
<astraljava> #info The updated (short) testcase sits now at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short
<astraljava> No idea what happened to the longer one.
<astraljava> ..
<knome> that wasn't updated; the old one is still at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Long
<astraljava> Oh okay, that's the reason. (we can have a word on why it wasn't updated later...)
<astraljava> *smirk*
<knome> hehe. :)
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic Feedback on Precise development cycle
<knome> okay, so
<knome> if there is any feedback on the dev cycle, how to do things better, proposals, what worked better than before or anything, the floor is yours
<GridCube> i think we need more communication
<knome> please note that we are not evaluating the *product* but the *process*
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> well
<knome> no, you are right :)
<knome> that's exactly about the process
<GridCube> ah
<knome> and i agree
<knome> we started well with the meetings, but somehow let that slip
<astraljava> +1
<GridCube> yes, that what i mean, i was extremely surprised by the logo change
<knome> this is one of the reasons why i made the change to chairing
<GridCube> i think that was handled pretty bad
<GridCube> i like the new logo now, but it was an unpleasant surprise
<knome> GridCube, while i agree that we could've communicated better on it, but it was announced
<GridCube> yes i know, but meeting where so far apart and sporadic that missing them was extremely easy
<knome> i think the biggest reason why the communication was bad was that it happened so late in the cycle; we actually had a real rush to even get it to the release
<knome> GridCube, exactly; again, that's why the new chairing stuff :)
<GridCube> :)
<knome> GridCube, (and note about the informal meetings)
<GridCube> yes i see that
<knome> generally, any communication between contributors and community is encouraged
<GridCube> and i see we have a twitter feed and g+
<GridCube> so i hope we use it
<knome> yes, though that's for a bit different communication, but still
<knome> yes, the twitter and G+ accounts will be used to announce meetings and new articles on the blog
<GridCube> no, it the same, sending the minutes to twitter and g+
<GridCube> its part of the communication
<knome> (and we now have an official linkedin xubuntu users group)
<astraljava> Whee!
<GridCube> :) yes, i hope the password didnt got stolen in the bunch :P
<knome> GridCube, yes, it's part of it, but it's not developer-developer communication; IRC, wiki and the mailing lists are designed for those :)
<hobgoblin> I hope all of those twitter etc are extra to existing methods of communication - or some od us will miss things 
<GridCube> :) i know 
<knome> hobgoblin, yes, that's how it is
<hobgoblin> ok  thanks :)
<knome> hobgoblin, as long as you follow the -devel ML, this IRC channel (and maybe the website), you're fine
<knome> and wiki too, if you're interested in a specific area
<hobgoblin> I do 
<GridCube> :)
<knome> #agreed We need better communication this cycle; actions already taken are changes in the meetings and social media accounts
<knome> anything else on the subject?
<GridCube> not from me
<knome> somebody else?
<knome> bluesabre_?
<bluesabre_> I'm good.  :)
<knome> bluesabre_, is there something we can do better to make new contributors feel more included?
<bluesabre_> I felt pretty included the whole time
<knome> that's good feedback - thanks :)
<bluesabre_> Thanks!
<knome> let's get rolling again then!
<knome> #subtopic Blueprints; feedback, questions and answers
<GridCube> o/
<knome> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/
<knome> GridCube, go ahead
<GridCube> #info I've been working on the comparison of music players against gmb, can not continue until i have some input about which are the ones that could be considered to compare, because if media libary integration is not obligatory we already have parole
<GridCube> :) 
<GridCube> ..
<knome> i'd suggest scheduling some time in the near future (maybe next week) with me, you and maybe ochosi (and of course, others interested) to go through what you have done already, and what would be the next steps
<knome> does that sound like a good plan?
<bluesabre_> (I'm a fan of keeping something with a library and sound menu support) :)
<knome> mmh, one of the things we need to discuss is what the "requirements" for features are for the default media player
<knome> that needs to be done before we can rule out players from the comparison
<GridCube> yes
<knome> i agree that we have way too many players up right now; it would be way too much work to compare all those
<GridCube> i agree, it sounds like an idea knome 
<knome> my stance on it is that we should at least drop anything with Qt or anything that's CLI off
<knome> and, everything that is not on the repositories too
<knome> (and everything that takes >200MB) :D
<GridCube> mmhm yes, i added them just because they qhere recomended to me to test
<knome> yup, that's good
<GridCube> in this channels
<knome> #action knome to follow up about the default media player -blueprint on the ML, scheduling some time to go through the spec next week
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to follow up about the default media player -blueprint on the ML, scheduling some time to go through the spec next week
<knome> GridCube, something around these times is good for you? ~15UTC ?
<knome> anything else on the blueprints?
<knome> #info Generally, all blueprints have no or slow progress, but things are expected to change relatively soon as infrastructure on a few things has been set up
<GridCube> knome, yes, that a good time
<knome> GridCube, ok, good
<knome> bluesabre_, you have anything about the blueprints?
<knome> astraljava, you?
<bluesabre_> Not really.  Slow going on the keyboard shortcuts overlay and catfish (which is nearly done)
<GridCube> o/
<knome> bluesabre_, great to hear :) you know it already, but please remember to update the work item statuses while you progress :)
<knome> GridCube, yep?
<GridCube> about the arandr thing
<bluesabre_> sure thing :)
<astraljava> Not really, pretty much the same as others; slow progress, unfortunately. Trying to pick up soon.
<knome> GridCube, what's up with that?
<GridCube> theres just arandr, grandr is not been made anymore
<GridCube> i mean theres only one current interface for xrandr
<GridCube> !info grandr
<ubottu> Package grandr does not exist in precise
<knome> GridCube, mm-hmm; in that ase, the question is if we want to include that or not
<knome> +c
<GridCube> yep
<knome> i'm not sure what the status on xfce monitor management dialog is
<knome> if that looks good, then it's an option too
<GridCube> in 4.10 its the same that in 4.8
<knome> if not, then there shouldn't be much stopping us from shipping arandr
<GridCube> so its not good
<knome> well, we can cherry-pick changes if the dialog gets much love in the next weeks
<GridCube> mmhm
<GridCube> i agree
 * micahg sees there's a meeting of some sort going on
<knome> micahg, yes, the community meeting announced on the ML;)
<GridCube> micahg, a community meeting not the less
<GridCube> :D
<knome> #info grandr is no more, keep an eye on the xfce monitor management dialog
<knome> anything else on the blueprints?
<GridCube> not from my pocket :P
<knome> ok, let's continue then (let's try to fit this in 1h)
<knome> #subtopic Enable or disable compositor by default?
<knome> #info ochosi told he's +1 for enabling by default
<bluesabre_> I'm all for keeping it by default
<GridCube> i don't really care
<astraljava> Keeping?
<knome> the reason why i brought this up is that it takes some resources and even causes some problems when enabled
<bluesabre_> *enabling
<knome> astraljava, it's enabled by default now.
<astraljava> Ok.
<bluesabre_> What problems exist with it enabled (besides ubiquity)?
<GridCube> i think that it might be disabled by default in the livecd and enabled in the final install
<knome> bluesabre_, for some people it has brought some rendering issues
<knome> (really rare, but happens)
<bluesabre_> ah
<knome> i think the main argument for keeping it enabled is our semi-transparent launcher panel
<knome> we'd have to change that if we disabled compositor
<knome> GridCube, yes, that's something we should look at, because it brings some problems to ubiquity
<knome> GridCube, or, just fix how ubiquity runs xfce, because that's what is actually causing the problems
<knome> maybe we can make some performance tests on how it affects low-end machines at installation time
<GridCube> knome, the pseudo dock can be rezised and centered and locked so it wont be on all over the bottom of the monitor
<knome> GridCube, yes, but that's not the issue; the issue is that if we disable the compositor, we can't have panel transparency
<GridCube> and that doesnt need transparencies
<knome> possibly
<knome> #info drop compositor on ubiquity? performance issues with low-end machines at installation time if compositor enabled?
<knome> i think we should investigate this more when we start testing
<knome> right now, there is not much to do
<astraljava> I'll mark it as a TODO for me.
<knome> astraljava, ok, thanks:)
<knome> #action astraljava to look at enabling/disabling compositor
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to look at enabling/disabling compositor
<knome> #subtopic Meeting schedule; how often should we have meetings?
<knome> weekly, be-weekly?
<knome> we should just run a quick poll to get some idea
<astraljava> I think bi-weekly is enough.
<knome> #vote Meetings; +1 for bi-weekly, -1 for weekly
<meetingology> Please vote on: Meetings; +1 for bi-weekly, -1 for weekly
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<astraljava> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from astraljava
<bluesabre_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre_
<knome> GridCube, micahg?
<GridCube> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from GridCube
<GridCube> sorry i have a huge lag
<knome> no problem :)
<knome> i'll try to wait for some time before proceeding
<knome> i'm sure not all can be as focused as i am...
<knome> i mean, need to chair == need to be focused
<knome> hobgoblin, ?
<hobgoblin> hello
<hobgoblin> oic 
<hobgoblin> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hobgoblin
<GridCube> vote hobgoblin :D
<micahg> +0, biweekly except around a release milestone IMHO
<meetingology> +0, biweekly except around a release milestone IMHO received from micahg
<knome> micahg, mm-hmm, might be ideal that way :)
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Meetings; +1 for bi-weekly, -1 for weekly
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> let's set the next meeting to two weeks from now
<knome> if there is need, people can have an informal meeting next week :)
<GridCube> :D
<micahg> I'd actually suggest a meeting next week if you want an alpah2
<knome> micahg, ah.
<micahg> *alpha2 even
<knome> in that case...
<knome> let's make it next week ;)
<astraljava> Decisions are made to be broken anyway.
<knome> #info Next Xubuntu community meeting at 21st of June, at 15UTC
<micahg> especially with the meetings on wed, the pre freeze meeting can be planning and the pre release meeting can be make sure everything is good
 * GridCube wonders if that wouldnt actually be alpha1... you know... because we hadnt that one...
<micahg> GridCube: because the release schedule says so :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<knome> GridCube, no, that's still a2 in the ubuntu calendar :)
<GridCube> :P
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 13 15:55:50 2012 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-06-13-15.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-06-13-15.00.html
<knome> okay, thanks!
<knome> i'll set up the minutes soonish, or at least today
<GridCube> :D
<astraljava> Thanks knome, all!
<knome> see you all next week
<GridCube> :)
<knome> thank astraljava and congrats again on the new position
<GridCube> add a link to the google calendar
<GridCube> :D
<astraljava> Merci beacoup.
<knome> astraljava, i promised ochosi he can chair the next meeting, but you can do the next after that if you want ;)
<pleia2> sorry
<knome> pleia2, heh, no problem... :)
<astraljava> knome: Sure thing, I already mentioned to balloons I need practice. :)
<knome> hehe
<GridCube> also the google calendar link should be linked on the topic fo this channel
<knome> GridCube, we'll get to that later, the whole calendar things is still WIP :)
<knome> (need to see what are the best practices)
<GridCube> :D yes i know, im just saying
<knome> i need to go to the gents', brb
<pleia2> astraljava: meeting is on sunday, see it?
<astraljava> pleia2: Yeah, for some reason it just didn't appear on my other machine. I see it now, thanks!
<pleia2> ok good :)
<astraljava> knome: It's 1600 UTC, as well as the QA roundtable.
<astraljava> pleia2: Are you an expert on google accounts, btw.?
<astraljava> ...or anyone else in here?
<pleia2> that's quite a big topic
 * knome is always when he is paid on that
<astraljava> I have a problem; I want to use another address for all ubuntu-related work, but I can't use google calendar links directly, because that address isn't a google account thingie.
<knome> ^ exactly that :D
<knome> i can learn but..
<knome> astraljava, i think you need a google account
<pleia2> astraljava: the other address has to request access
<astraljava> pleia2: Oh? Tell me more?
<pleia2> and create a google account with it, as knome says
<pleia2> google account != gmail
<astraljava> Hmm... ok. I'll look it up, for now I have no idea how to do that. Thanks!
<pleia2> just create a google account with the other address
<knome> hmm, any reason the meetings page has the ubuntuteams category?
<knome> isn't it enough for the main page to have it
<knome> ermh, the meeting is of course on the 20th.
<knome> updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Leaders
<knome> astraljava, you don't seem to have a wikipage
<knome> astraljava, or, tbe, anything 'custom' on your wikipage
<astraljava> No I don't. Yeah, I need to do that.
<knome> yup. once you've done that, link to it from the leaders page
<astraljava> Will do, thanks.
<knome> np
<astraljava> *ARGH*
<astraljava> Now that I created an account for my other email address, there's a rule that you cannot connect two google accounts.
<astraljava> Am I really asking impossible things here? Surely I can't be the only one doing this?
<pleia2> you can't connect two accounts
<pleia2> you can be logged into two at once (I'm always logged into pleia2@gmail and lyz@princessleia)
<pleia2> it's a bit annoying sometimes when services go to the wrong account, but they've made improvements so most services have a dropdown now to let you select which logged in account you wish to access it with
<astraljava> Yeah. So I really can't have calendar invitations sent to my @kapsi.fi address to open in my @gmail.com account? Like, no way in thatburningfieryplace?
<pleia2> no
<astraljava> How lovely.
<pleia2> invitations are tied to email address (how else would they do it?)
<astraljava> Well I understand that, but there's the alternate email address thingie for a google account. Apparently it's just for password reminders etc.
<pleia2> yeah, and there is a "send mail as" thing, but I think that's just for actually sending the mail (since you *can* include other gmail accounts there too, it still has to know which calendar account to associate it to)
<astraljava> Ok, so now I have a work flow: Only sign in to gmail on the other account, and G+ if I want to. But not Calendar. For that I sign in with the other google account named after the ubuntu-related email. So then I can c&p the links from invitations, and they get added to the calendar that I share for the other account. :)
<xubuntuuser> hello, I was wondering if there was currently a dev-fork of xubuntu/xfce/thunar which checks for space on a device before file copy/moving, or if such a feature is currently available but must be turned "on"/configured because it takes extra CPU time to use.
<xubuntuuser> ?
<astraljava> knome: Can you send a follow-up email on my nomination for the QA lead position? It'd be much easier if I could just link to that instead of the whole of the minutes for the meeting. :)
 * astraljava is writing the wiki page
<martinphone> did you have a reunion earlier today?
<hobgoblin> there was a meeting yes
<martinphone> global proxy settings option?
<martinphone> systemwide?
<hobgoblin> ?
<astraljava> What is this? A buzzword bingo? Integrated! MaaS! ROI!
<drc> Best buzzword I know...beer.
<knome> astraljava, will do.
<knome> martinphone, discussions will not be raised unless there is somebody to raise them
<knome> bleh, seems like i've lost the original email.
<knome> astraljava, sent.
<knome> internet lags today
<astraljava> knome: Thanks!
<knome> no problem
<martinphone> in the meeting, did you discuss the possibility of creating an app to change proxy ettings systemwide?
<knome> martinphone, no. as i said, matters will not be discussed if nobody adds an item to the agenda and is around to initialize and steer the discussion
<martinphone> misunderstood sorry
<knome> besides, i doubt we would make a decision on a meeting. it's not a trivial issue, so it's hard to make a good decision right away
<knome> if it proves to be very complex, we most probably don't have the resources for it
<knome> anyway, send an email to the xubuntu-devel mailing list and interested people will be able to comment
<knome> and maybe it will generate enough interest for somebody to start investigating it more closely
<knome> (no promises though)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-14
<jamiekrug> Hello, might someone be kind enough to provide pointers for watching for XFCE window manager config changes?
<jamiekrug> Specifically, I'm just looking to provide detail for a Chromium developer to allow window title button config in XFCE to apply to Chromium (see last 2 comments): http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=62303
<jamiekrug> Sorry I can't stay longer for a response. Thanks in advance if anyone can comment on that Chromium bug. If not, I'll try back another time. Cheers.
<astraljava> knome: pleia2: anyone else interested; please check the mail re: QA meeting this Sunday, and correct me quickly if there's anything that could be classified as false information. Thanks!
<knome> astraljava, done, and done
<astraljava> knome: Thanks! Somehow I missed that.
<knome> astraljava, np
<knome> my neck hurts
<knome> :|
<astraljava> But next time, try to remember that you have at least a backspace key on your keyboard, possibly even a delete key. And depending on the $editor_of_choice, it could allow deletion of rows, yes, even a number of them at the same time. You know, to cut the cruft. *smirk*
<astraljava> Ouch.
<astraljava> I bet it's because you have to scroll lenghty emails from the top to the bottom. *grin*
 * astraljava considers skipping the town for a few days
<astraljava> Oh wait! I actually will. Tomorrow.
<knome> lol
<knome> where are you going?
<astraljava> Karhula, to pay my mom a visit.
<knome> aha :)
<astraljava> Please don't hurt me too badly, she gets terrified easily.
<knome> i'll only beat you in nhl.
<astraljava> Mental violence counts, too.
<knome> too bad
<knome> guess what i'm playing with?
<knome> the cmyk and all that stuf...
<knome> +f
<knome> no wonder my neck hurts
<ochosi> hey guys.fi
<knome> hey girls.at
<ochosi> astraljava: congrats on your new position ;)
<astraljava> Danke :)
<astraljava> knome: My condolences.
<knome> well, i'm not doing it for jussi, so at least i'm paid for it
<knome> :|
<ochosi> hehe
<astraljava> Poor lad. He's so easy.
<ochosi> yup
<astraljava> I've even talked about this with him. He acknowledges this, but doesn't know the reason why.
<ochosi> btw, in terms of parallel software development, there's nice news: http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/06/gnome-developers-are-working-on-new.html
 * astraljava facepalms
<astraljava> So what else is new?
<ochosi> hrm, i dunno, i'm trying to motivate myself to get some work done so that i have some time to get foss work done
<ochosi> and i'm trying to stop the urge to buy a new laptop
<astraljava> "Good evening, and apologies for interrupting. This just in; KDE developers have announced work beginning on centralized application management software. It will be designed according to already existing counterparts from both Ubuntu and GNOME developers. More news at nine, we return you now to the previously scheduled programme."
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> astraljava: this is not helping me focus on work!
<knome> ochosi, close the irc terminal window and get back to work!
<ochosi> knome: thanks, that's better
<ochosi> see ya later :)
<knome> good
<knome> i should've done that too :P
<ochosi> hehe
<knome> i just came up with a joke:
<knome> â what do you think of this cake?
<knome> â dries, buytaert
<knome> (taart (in dutch) = pie)
<knome> and those who don't know, dries buytaert is the founder of drupal
<knome> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16ZX5_GEM8 <3
<knome> love that intro
<knome> and how it turns into the track that is
 * astraljava is desperately trying to come up with something witty as a remark to the joke, but fails spectacularly
 * hobgoblin gave up too
<knome> haha
<knome> A: let's change the name of nokia to tampere
<astraljava> "The cake is a lie?!"
<knome> B: tampered nokia?
<astraljava> Sorry, can't do better.
 * hobgoblin can't believe people are too bone idle to report bugs
<astraljava> Hahah, that's a bit better.
<hobgoblin> actually he can 
<astraljava> Bugs are evil. Products are hard to market with bugs published. Better to just sell customization to work-around the unwanted features.
<hobgoblin> LOL
<hobgoblin> I used to use amarok as well
<astraljava> Sorry, I'm succumbing to the company policy.
<hobgoblin> astraljava: that's ok I am superb at being the devil's advocate and will argue that black is white
<hobgoblin> astraljava: is there a xubuntu daily? or rather where is it - want to do clean install of 12.10 - currently it's an upgraded 12.04 here
<hobgoblin> would like to check this lightdm thing out
<knome> hobgoblin, xubuntu did not release alpha 1
<hobgoblin> I know that - just wondered if there was anything yet 
<hobgoblin> guess not :)
<knome> nope, not until a2
<hobgoblin> k
<knome> at least afaik
<hobgoblin> mine works ok - was just going to go look at this lightdm thing if I could clean install - it can wait :)
<astraljava> knome: The question was re: daily. And hobgoblin, yes there is: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/20120614/ Whether they work is a whole 'nother thing.
<knome> mmh. yeah.
 * astraljava is off, and will let gnome know an ETA for an ETA at some point
<hobgoblin> k - thanks astraljava 
<knome> astraljava, heh, thanks. :) hf meanwhile
<ochosi> madnick_: ping
<hobgoblin> astraljava: well that was fun - it might have installed and worked if the alternate iso on the USB did not keep looking for itself on a cdrom :)
<ochosi> heh
<hobgoblin> nvm :)
<madnick_> ochosi: pong
<ochosi> madnick_: i wanted to talk to you about our lightdm stuff
<ochosi> madnick_: specifically i wanted to suggest forking unity-greeter and trying to free it from all superfluous dependencies
<ochosi> madnick_: creating something from scratch might be too much work, and i want a good backup option in case there is not enough time
<madnick_> ochosi: indeed, so what are you thinking? removing the specific deps and changing to our background? Because I think a lot of people seem to like the general functionality of it otherwise
<madnick_> http://madnick.se/~madnick/works.png
<madnick_> did something like that the last time
<madnick_> I think it changed a bit since tho
<madnick_> Also the text is easily changable to "xubuntu" etc
<ochosi> yeah, looks nice
<ochosi> maybe you can start with that in a public branch "xubuntu-greeter"
<ochosi> then we can continue from there
<ochosi> madnick_: ^
<ochosi> ok, g2g now, bbl
 * knome doesn't like the dot pattern on the login screen
<knome> :)
<knome> but otherwise i suppose that's fine :)
<ochosi> knome: yeah, without the dots it's far better than what we have
<knome> probably
<ochosi> gnight! :)
<knome> nighty
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-15
<ochosi> madnick_: ping :)
<madnick_> ochosi: pong
<ochosi> madnick_: just quickly wanted to follow up on yesterday
<ochosi> i was kinda on and off because we had friends over
<madnick_> ah okay
<madnick_> Well, I haven't done anything yet
<ochosi> yeah, i didn't expect you to :)
<ochosi> but i thought we could talk about the next steps
<madnick_> sure
<ochosi> i think first off we should register a new launchpad project, called "xubuntu-greeter"
<ochosi> next, we should fork the current working branch of unity-greeter to that project and then start working on it there
<ochosi> we can define what we want to change (bg,logo,text) and go through with that step-by-step
<madnick_> yeah
<ochosi> which of these things do you want me to do? :}
<madnick_> Well, creating the lp project and forking would be great, because I have so many lp projects that are inactive hehe
<madnick_> Its starting to look bad ;)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> ok, well it doesn't really matter who creates the project though
<ochosi> it's just important that we create a team that takes over maintenance
<madnick_> yeah
<madnick_> Well, tell you what, I'll review the current code tonight, and read about its condition, to get a grip of what needs to be done with the code, generally
<ochosi> sounds good
<madnick_> But if we need the lp project now, I wont be able to do that, because I am going to bed
<madnick_> very soon
<ochosi> yeah, np
<ochosi> i can create it and link it to the blueprint
<madnick_> awesome 
<ochosi> it would be nice if you could put the things that need to be done in the blueprint as well, in form of workitems
<madnick_> sure
<ochosi> great, sounds like a plan
<madnick_> Seems there is only vala source now, no C source
<madnick_> Also, without looking deeper into it (ill do that tonight), a first glance would indicate there is much hardcoded things still, so I dunno about translations
<olbi> xubuntu-greeter sounds nice, now I use ubuntu-greeter but kde light-dm looks fantastic 
<ochosi> olbi: got a screenshot of it?
<ochosi> madnick_: ok, we'll see. if we're not much worse than ubuntu, we should be fine (i'm sure they'll add support for it, we can just merge that in later)
<madnick_> ochosi: also, do you know the status of onboard in 12.10?
<olbi> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/12/work-started-on-lightdm-kde-integration.html
<madnick_> Its what is used there by default, and thats also the best alternative i tried when making the old one
<olbi> http://kdefamily.pl/index.php/aktualnoci/40-programy/293-lightdm-kde-010
<madnick_> ocra screen reader aswell
<ochosi> one sec, brb
<ochosi> madnick_: i'd say for now let's stay on par with ubuntu, just modify it for our needs
<madnick_> yeah
<madnick_> ok, i will head off to bed, cya in 12 hours :)
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> seeya
 * astraljava needs to give the dailies some spins this weekend, the channel is suspiciously quiet about any bugs
<hobgoblin> I got one astraljava :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Please do share, I'm writing the report to the release meeting.
<hobgoblin> the daily I had yesterday doesn't work once it realises it's not on a cd but on a usb - there's a bug - I'll try and find it
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Is this an alternate image?
<hobgoblin> yea - there is no desktop daily
<hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/1010142
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1010142 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "if it is started from usb, want to download files from cd" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Sure there is: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/
<ochosi> madnick_: project is here: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-greeter
<hobgoblin> astraljava: when I went where you sent me yesterday there wasn't lol 
<hobgoblin> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/20120614/
<hobgoblin> :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Strange, cause both the 13th and 14th have images in them.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Now you're looking at the alternate image directory.
<hobgoblin> downloading now - will boot and install it fortwith 
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Please do notice the difference, live-cd is in daily-live/, alternate in daily/
<hobgoblin> I just went were you sent me - no problem 
<hobgoblin> aah cool - didn't know that - will remember - I hope 
<astraljava> I'm a little puzzled by this bug. I wonder how the stick was prepared, if with USB Creator, then it's invalid as that only works with live images.
<astraljava> But nonetheless, it's not Xubuntu-specific, so I'll ignore it for now. Thanks for mentioning it anyway, hobgoblin!
<hobgoblin> yep
<hobgoblin> is there a check list somewhere to work against for checking the daily - or just the one I saw the other day? 
<hobgoblin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short
<astraljava> hobgoblin: That's updated to what we think is relevant, for now. It'll work for dailies just fine, but we need the Long for milestones, the next of which is Alpha-2 in a week and a half or so.
<hobgoblin> ok 
<astraljava> Thanks for caring about the images! :)
<hobgoblin> certainly for the time being I have got a lot of free time 
<astraljava> Hugely appreciated.
<hobgoblin> I reported something yesterday for lightdm - arguing with sebastian bacher about it being a bug or not lol
<hobgoblin> I do though see his point so will leave it now :)
<hobgoblin> astraljava: I can't code or do webpages or the like - so I help with what I can do :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Not (nearly) every contributor needs to, either.
<hobgoblin> :)
<hobgoblin> got my name on the documentation list as well - all helps I guess :)
<astraljava> That's why I'm in the QA business as well. There's not much coding to be done for Xubuntu, and if there is, we've got a few wizards here already. :)
<astraljava> Absolutely.
<hobgoblin> I assume I'll be able to zsync the dailies - I can check them almost daily 
<hobgoblin> astraljava: ok - here goes - I WILL blame you if it goes horribly wrong - especially as I am really good at telling people to backup, but fail badly at listening to myself ... :)
<hobgoblin> astraljava: couple of things failed
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Ok, I have to run now, but please do share, I'll get to it in the backlog.
<hobgoblin> k - I will - I've also got some comments - they can wait 
<hobgoblin> partitioner - something else - told me that resize would take some time - there was not resize going on and it didn't do one
<hobgoblin> usb - mounted as far as dmesg was concerned - file manager didn't start nor have it there - in fact none of the drives I would expect to see in thunar were there
<hobgoblin> there was graphic corruption during the liveusb screenshow and on the installed system - went when you moused over it http://i.imgur.com/Pr6OY.png
<hobgoblin> other than that it was good 
<hobgoblin> when you're back and have time - perhaps a chat about the 'process' 
<ochosi> if any of you feel like checking out the new panel-style in greybird, it's in the bright-menus branch
<hobgoblin> I would later if I knew where the bright menus branch was lol
<ochosi> hobgoblin: you can either download the tarball here: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/tarball/bright-menus
<ochosi> hobgoblin: or clone it with git from here: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/tree/bright-menus
<hobgoblin> k - I'll have a look later on :)
<ochosi> hobgoblin: sure, no rush
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-16
<knome> pleia2, humm; https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-desktop
<pleia2> knome: huh, dev status natty, not so active?
<pleia2> I'm not sure how packagesets work, maybe related to that
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-17
<knome> yeah, i'm wondering if that is technically still used
<knome> otoh, it's not a ubuntu pkg
<knome> .. i think
<knome> see https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-artwork
<knome> oh wait
<knome> yeah, there is the quantal pkg too
<knome> so the project is probably needed technically
<knome> i updated the description
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> anyway, got to go. going to a confirmation party tomorrow and need to get up in less than 6 hours
<knome> see you!
<pleia2> night :)
<micahg> pleia2: packagesets have nothing to do with the upstream projects
<Dave_H> Morning all
<astraljava> Heheh, knome, pleia2, well the other day, Scott updated the xfce4-utils replacement to the natty source tree on the Studio side as well. Maybe it's not giving up just yet. :)
<astraljava> knome: pleia2: I'm a little behind schedule. Can either of you start the meeting in half an hour? I should be available to join in a little later.
<pleia2> micahg: xubuntu-desktop is considered upstream?
<pleia2> but yeah, I don't know how packagesets work so I was just guessting :)
<pleia2> -t
<FiltroMan> Hi guys!
<ochosi> hullo
<pleia2> hello
<FiltroMan> perfectly in time for the rendez-vous :D
<pleia2> knome: you about?
<cc_INC> Today Q&A right?!?!
<cc_INC> Am I on time?!
<FiltroMan> yes
<pleia2> yes, calm down :)
<FiltroMan> Hi :D
<cc_INC> Enthusiasm...sorry
<pleia2> astraljava is going to be a bit late
<astraljava> Alright, can I get a show of hands for the participants of Xubuntu QA meeting?
<astraljava> Heheh. :)
<pleia2> oh yay!
<pleia2> want to #startmeeting?
<FiltroMan> here am I
<astraljava> pleia2: No, I don't think we need that today.
<pleia2> ok
<cc_INC> o/
 * hobgoblin listens at the touchline
<astraljava> I'll give it a minute for other hands to be raised, and then I'll introduce a free-form agenda I have in mind for today.
<FiltroMan> I apologize in advance, if I'll be a bit late at answering, because I'm updating my system (I'm running on a P3)
<cc_INC> P3, nice! :)
<astraljava> FiltroMan: I'll try to keep this meeting a little bit more informal than the usual meeting. I'm not in a hurry today, I intend to be here chatting with as many, topics and users, as possible.
<astraljava> That's why I don't think we need to make the bot keep minutes of today.
<FiltroMan> Oh lovely :)
<astraljava> But still, I'd like to have the topic confined to QA issues only.
<astraljava> We can't hold the channel hostage all day long. :)
<ochosi> astraljava: to the worst you can always create a new chan ;)
<astraljava> Ok, so it looks to be us, then. Anyone is free to join later if feels like it.
<astraljava> Hi ochosi, yes of course, if we're being threatened around here. :)
<FiltroMan> c'mon guys... we shouldn't go off topic that often
<astraljava> So, welcome everyone, and thanks for showing interest!
<astraljava> I should probably introduce myself quickly, if anyone's wondering why I'm here doing most of the "formal" style of talking.
<astraljava> During the precise cycle, I took more part in Xubuntu development, not really on the low-level technical part, but being the handyman and trying to help wherever.
<Os_Maleus> astraljava: yes, please! and a short info, how this works here. ;-) (for the first time participating on such a thing. 
<astraljava> Hello Os_Maleus, I'll try. :)
<astraljava> Since precise was an LTS, we needed to pay a lot of attention to quality, and I think we did a decent job.
<astraljava> What that means is that a lot of testing was involved.
<astraljava> Our primary means of doing the testing consist of testing the daily images, and milestone releases.
<astraljava> The latter ones are called Alpha-1, Alpha-2, Beta-1, Beta-2, and then the various amounts of Release Candidates, which usually are desired to be limited to a number of one only, but occasionally we need more if really grave bugs are found that late in the cycle.
<astraljava> Previously the image testing results were only tracked for the milestones, and the place for them is http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<astraljava> But nowadays you can file results for dailies there as well.
<astraljava> Anyone is free to file results there, it only requires a username there, which is easiest to do with a ubuntu openid login.
<astraljava> If you wanna have a look at the site now, I'll give you a minute or two for that, cause I know that you're already that impatient. :)
<hobgoblin> didn't know you could file for dailies - would have done that the other day :)
<pleia2> yeah, it's great
<FiltroMan> well organized
<hobgoblin> pleia2: well I can do that more or less daily :) 
<astraljava> It is well organized, yes, but for Xubuntu, it still needs a few tweaks.
<astraljava> I'm talking about testcases of course.
<FiltroMan> Obviously
<FiltroMan> On there is also possible to file the documentation?
<cc_INC> So basically what you are saying is that you need more testers?
<astraljava> We're wanting to make a change to the classifications, and the procedures.
<pleia2> cc_INC: we always need more testers :)
<astraljava> cc_INC: That, too. :)
<astraljava> FiltroMan: Could you elaborate on that, please?
<cc_INC> Cool. I have never participated in something like this.
<FiltroMan> I was meaning, that the official documentation revisioning has to be posted always into the daily schedule or somewhere else?
<astraljava> FiltroMan: Are you referring to the testcase description?
<FiltroMan> Also
<FiltroMan> I'll try to explain better
<FiltroMan> I received the mail with the date and time for this rendezvous by Paasi, after I've applied for a role of grammar revisor for Xubuntu-Docs
<astraljava> FiltroMan: Ahh... no. That's a bit different.
<cc_INC> Can I ask a very quick question regarding quality control?
<pleia2> doc review will have its own procedures for reviewing (not QA)
<FiltroMan> Oh... 
<astraljava> FiltroMan: Sadly I'm not very well versed on how the documentation team is doing. Of course it has to do with QA, but not as directly.
<astraljava> cc_INC: Sure.
<FiltroMan> I'd better to save the whole log of this session (for my personal culture ;D) and send a mail to Paasi
<FiltroMan> Don't you think?
<pleia2> all logs of this channel are available on irclogs.ubuntu.com for reference :)
<cc_INC> On all of my boxes Xubuntu generates an error report whenever something crashes or isn't working properly. Does this error report get sent to the proper people?!
<cc_INC> Just wondering..
<pleia2> Pasi (knome) will send out more information about doc team stuff when we have things further organized, but you're welcome to ask specific questions of him
<FiltroMan> Perfect!
<astraljava> cc_INC: It asks whether you want to file a bug about that, doesn't it? It won't automatically, but if you file the bug with apport, then yes, it's possible.
<pleia2> I'm just not sure we've actually made enough plans for docs review to actually answer your questions right now, the docs haven't been updated in several cycle
<pleia2> s
<pleia2> (perhaps we should plan a docs team meeting too :))
<cc_INC> I always file bugs....figure you could do something with the info
<astraljava> cc_INC: One moment, I'll link to the apport mechanism.
<astraljava> cc_INC: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
<cc_INC> With this in mind, I would love to help out with testing. Given if there is a proper procedure in place to help us new to testing so we get started the right way.
<astraljava> cc_INC: There is. And I was really getting to that, next. :)
<cc_INC> Thanks astraljava
<GridCube> cc_INC, there is
<astraljava> So as I was saying, on the ISO tracker, there are the testcases listed.
<astraljava> At the moment we're in the process of renewing their decriptions.
<astraljava> descriptions*
<astraljava> So far we have one made to the point where we're happy with it. It doesn't mean, though, that it cannot be changed anymore.
<astraljava> It can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short
<astraljava> Do you wanna go through it now? I can give you 2 minutes for that.
<hobgoblin> astraljava: so is the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short not for use now?
<astraljava> hobgoblin: That was the old one.
<astraljava> We made it a little more to the point.
<hobgoblin> cos that's what I used the other day and had some comments on
<hobgoblin> k
<pleia2> astraljava: a couple quick questions before going through it?
<astraljava> While you're reading, I'll talk about it a little. It's called Short, because we wanted the testers to be really able to go through that for the dailies as well.
<astraljava> pleia2: Sure.
<hobgoblin> is there going to be a replacement for the Long one? 
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Yes.
<hobgoblin> k
<pleia2> so right now on the QA tracker you go to the livecd test page like: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/219/builds/17405/testcases/129/results and it links to http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopLiveSession
<pleia2> would this /Short test replace that Ubuntu-specific live session? or does the /Short go somewhere else not currently linked to the QA tracker?
<astraljava> pleia2: We're wanting to link to that soon enough. Maybe the /Long would need to be updated first, though, as well.
<pleia2> ok, where does /Long fit into the QA tracker, an extension of http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopPostInstallation ?
<pleia2> (DesktopPostInstallation is Ubuntu-specific too, but you can complete all the tasks on Xubuntu)
<astraljava> I'm thinking it'd be especially used for milestone releases.
<astraljava> There is the post-installation part in the /Short as well.
<pleia2> I guess what I'm trying to figure out is precisely where these /Short and /Long tests go with regard to the QA tracker, since right now they're not really in the iso tracker workflow
<pleia2> so people don't know about them :)
<astraljava> Yes, it's a good point.
<astraljava> I think what we were thinking of is that we have the basic testcase for all *buntus. Then we have the Xubuntu-specific parts, which are our /Short and /Long.
<astraljava> We need to tweak the link in the http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com to suit our needs.
<astraljava> links*
<pleia2> ok, so I think we should keep this in mind as we move forward with the /Short /Long rewrites, since they will have to fit somewhere in this workflow (maybe it doesn't make sense to have a post-installation section of the /Short)
<astraljava> But the main idea is that half of the image testing is the same for all flavors and the vanilla.
<astraljava> pleia2: It does, as part of the ISO testing is also to keep track of the applications and the integration of them in the desktop env.
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> my other question - we intend to move /Short and /Long to the QA wiki once we've finished writing, right?
<astraljava> Yes.
<pleia2> ok, great :)
<pleia2> that's all from me, proceed!
<astraljava> Thanks! :) Dailies testing can become tedious and consuming, that's why the /Short needs to stay short.
 * pleia2 nods
<astraljava> But enough to gather the most important things of the distribution and its most used parts.
<pleia2> last cycle it was very unclear to me whether the /Short and /Long were even used because I just followed the QA wiki test cases, not the short and long
<astraljava> So my question to the new people around here is, how do you feel about it now that you've glanced through it?
<astraljava> pleia2: Yeah. That's one part I wanted to pay much more attention to QA procedures from now on.
<hobgoblin> it all worked ok for me the other day - except I had the old short page lol - didn't know that I could go to the tracker or I'd have filed a bug 
<pleia2> (btw new people: it's ok to say the QA tracker looks confusing and you need help, I sure did)
<hobgoblin> or two
<astraljava> FiltroMan, cc_INC, hobgoblin, Os_Maleus especially, have you read through the document yet?
<hobgoblin> pleia2: I will :)
<hobgoblin> yes
<cc_INC> you mean this document https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short
<cc_INC> right?
<astraljava> cc_INC: Yes.
<cc_INC> Cause you guys were talking about Short, Long, Testcase Q&A kinda lost me for a moment :)
<astraljava> Oh, and GridCube, hi! I saw your nick flash by there earlier. :)
<pleia2> cc_INC: sorry :)
<astraljava> cc_INC: Yes, sorry about that. :)
<cc_INC> Yeah I read it. Is quite clear, simpel steps that have to be followed,
<GridCube> sup astraljava :)
<astraljava> Again, I want to stress, this is not a very formal meeting. I want a more cozy and relaxed atmosphere here, feel free to voice your questions and concerns about anything. :)
<GridCube> theres some sort of meeting?
<astraljava> GridCube: A little bit like that. :)
<GridCube> :) ok
<GridCube> im zsyncking images once or twice a week now
<cc_INC> So maybe a stupid question from the newbie.
<GridCube> but i havent done any tests
<cc_INC> But where does one post the "resluts" of the test?!
<GridCube> university is on final month
<astraljava> GridCube: That's alright, that's why we have these new people around here now. :)
<astraljava> cc_INC: Ok. Have you logged in to the site, yet?
<cc_INC> You mean this site: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker
<cc_INC> ?
<astraljava> cc_INC: Yeah.
<cc_INC> Not yet...(doing so as we speak)
<GridCube> cc_INC, :P then you can't 
<astraljava> cc_INC: Ok, once you've done so, you will see the currently open milestones. Yes, dailies is a milestone, too. :)
<astraljava> We should have a look at 'Quantal Daily', when you've logged in to the site. Can everyone intested do that right now? It's much easier and more beneficial to do talk about stuff when you see everything we see at the same time.
<astraljava> interested*
<astraljava> to talk about*
<astraljava> gah... where'd my typing go today?
<pleia2> :)
<cc_INC> Oh snap...forgot my password...sorry....
<astraljava> cc_INC: No worries, we are not in a hurry. :)
<cc_INC> astraljava Thanks, I feel a bit embaresed tho :)
<hobgoblin> :)
<astraljava> cc_INC: No need. :) I have tens of passwords to even more sites. It's not everyday I forget all of them, but every week at least. :)
<GridCube> talking about qatracker :( i don't know programing so my idea is not going very far bug: 994816
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 994816 in Ubuntu QA Website "Buttons for adding bugs found in previous builds of a product" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994816
 * astraljava is not a webdev, so will likely pass
<pleia2> hehe
<astraljava> Give me bugs on C/C++ apps, or python, or even perl. But js?
<astraljava> Nah...
<GridCube> but adding those buttons to the qatracker would make testing so damn better
<astraljava> I'm gonna give it 2 minutes still. Let me know with the now legendary 'o/' sign when you're done with logging to the site.
<GridCube> like "this are the known reported bugs you should look at bro" and people go and say "yep i still see them sis" or "nope they arent they anymore!"
<astraljava> GridCube: Are you trying to talk me into learning a new script language?
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> :D
<astraljava> gah
 * GridCube has to learn visualbasic to make excel forms, don't ask why :(
<pleia2> GridCube: yeah that would be awesome
<astraljava> You guys are no fun.
<pleia2> the "hardware profile" link area also confuses people to know end (the answer to what it is even feels hacky :))
<Os_Maleus> my internet was interrupted. here is a stormy wind going around. astraljava, would You like to tell me where I find the log again, please!? 
<pleia2> know end?
<pleia2> no end
<pleia2> more coffeee
<GridCube> Os_Maleus, irclogs.ubuntu.com
<hobgoblin> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/06/17/%23xubuntu-devel.html
<astraljava> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/06/17/%23xubuntu-devel.txt
<pleia2> it wouldn't have updated yet
<astraljava> Well, there you go.
<GridCube> nope
<hobgoblin> specifically that one eventually
<pleia2> Os_Maleus: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker
<astraljava> Yeah, but eventually.
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Are you willing to participate in this session, still? If so, then do log in on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com.
<astraljava> Ok, I guess we'll move on now.
<Os_Maleus> I read the "/short"-thing. sound/seems to be easily performable 
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Good to hear.
<astraljava> When you click on the link 'Quantal Daily', you'll see a few testcases.
<astraljava> err.. products.
<Os_Maleus> I need to say, that I didn't send reports back, until now. didn't had the time to deal with that, simply. 
<cc_INC> Do I login with my Launchpad details or is this something totally different than launchpad?
<GridCube> cc_INC, same that lp
<astraljava> For the record, on your left hand menu, you can limit the products to the ones that appeal to you in the Filters section.
<astraljava> cc_INC: LP openid works there, too.
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Yeah, I mentioned that while you were away, probably. That's why the /Short testcase is really short, now.
<astraljava> Anyway, if you scroll down enough, you'll find Xubuntu there.
<astraljava> Let's click on 'Xubuntu Desktop amd64'.
<astraljava> That's probably going to be used the most.
<GridCube> mmm
<GridCube> i wonder if i can do amd64 vbox testings now...
<astraljava> But of course, if your machine is not capable of handling the instruction set, choose i386.
<astraljava> Any one of them will do for today's purposes.
<GridCube> cc_INC, Os_Maleus you should learn to use zsync aswel
<astraljava> Once you've chosen the product/image you want to test, you'll be facing the various testcase.
<astraljava> testcases*
<astraljava> GridCube: Good point, I should cover it now.
<Os_Maleus> GridCube: zsync? I know Rsync. did You mean that one? 
<astraljava> Select a testcase, for instance, if you only wanna check how the live session works, choose 'Live Session'. (you could not have seen that coming!)
<GridCube> i know that for some reason zsync is better for isos, cant tell why tho
<hobgoblin> works well here 
<cc_INC> Okay okay
<cc_INC> It took me a while but I'm in...
<pleia2> Os_Maleus: similar thing, but zsync can grab diffs of the binary iso images (rsync would redownload the whole image if it's changed)
<astraljava> Once you've selected the testcase, you can see the links to the image, and the description of the case.
<cc_INC> You can also filter on Xubuntu instead of scrolling down?1
<astraljava> If you see the 'Link to the download information', go ahead and click it.
<GridCube> pleia2, :D that was it! that it downloads only the parts that changed :D
<astraljava> There you can find the list of images, and on some the ways to acquire them.
<astraljava> The third one, as GridCube suggested, if very handy for the testers of the daily images.
<Os_Maleus> I am making my back-ups with rsync. there it is writing the same: only changed files. 
<cc_INC> GridCube I have no clue what zsync is but I pick up things fast. So will dig into it ASAP :)
<astraljava> It only gets the changed part of the .iso, which will mean a dramatic drop of data flowing through your lines.
<GridCube> cc_INC, astraljava is explaining now ;)
<astraljava> As you can see, all the links point to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com
<astraljava> That is the main server that hosts all the images.
<astraljava> When you have done some testing, you probably won't need that page anymore, and you'll remember to head directly to that site, if necessary even.
<hobgoblin> if you want an example I run this cd /mnt/music/Spare/Iso/Daily/ && zsync http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/quantal-desktop-i386.iso.zsync
<astraljava> Hehe, thanks hobgoblin, I was just about to type that. :)
<hobgoblin> :)
<astraljava> Although not under /mnt/music... Why music?! :D
<astraljava> But yeah. Pay attention to that URL.
<astraljava> Instead of a date in the link, it has current/
<cc_INC> Testing sounds like music to his ears?
<astraljava> That's very handy, cause then you don't have to know which date has the latest successful image.
<astraljava> See, sometimes images fail to build.
<GridCube> :P i have to .sh files with: zsync http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/current/quantal-alternate-i386.iso.zsync
<astraljava> And for that date, there won't be anything worth your while.
<GridCube> :D
<astraljava> But when you replace the date with current/, it'll find the latest directory that has images that can be tested.
<GridCube> zsync http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/quantal-desktop-i386.iso.zsync
<astraljava> Anything you want to ask about now?
<cc_INC> So far I understand it a little bit.
<astraljava> FiltroMan, Os_Maleus, still with us?
<cc_INC> Testing can be done in Virtual Box or on actual hardware? 
<cc_INC> Especially the zsync crash course was interesting by the way. Much thanks for explaining!
<Os_Maleus> yes, still here, but can't log in there. ... searching for my pass-word. :-D
<astraljava> cc_INC: Both will do.
<cc_INC> Great
<cc_INC> I think I have some old boxes lying around I can use as test subjects :)
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Ok. Well, you can always ask when you have logged in. Most of the people on the channel know this stuff.
<astraljava> cc_INC: Yep, I do that as well.
<cc_INC> Okay can I quickly do a recap just to see if I fully understand?
<astraljava> cc_INC: Of course.
<cc_INC> 1- Go to http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ to get the latest daily build with zsync. 2-Go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short to follow the steps
<cc_INC> 3- Report the results....ehmm....where again? :( 
<hobgoblin> don't think we'd got there yet cc_INC 
<astraljava> cc_INC: Ok, once you've downloaded the image, and done the test, you can return to the testcases page.
<cc_INC> Sorry hobgoblin
<astraljava> There underneath the download information, and the links to the testcase, you see the 'Add a result' section.
<cc_INC> Will have a look straght away...
<astraljava> The only thing that's mandatory is the result. Did everything work as expected, and this means while you were going through the testcase.
<cc_INC> Ooooh I see now!!! Wicked!!
<Os_Maleus> seems like I would be too stupid even to create a new profile there. ... can't log in. 
<cc_INC> Awesome, I get it now. Thanks for your patience!
<astraljava> If anything failed, you mark the image as failed. If you didn't stumble upon anything unexpected, you'll mark it as Passed.
<pleia2> Os_Maleus: not at all :) there should be a password reset thing for ubuntu single sign on
<cc_INC> Boy, this is exciting :)
<hobgoblin> can I just add something - if you do find a bug and report it - only put the number of the bug - not the whole URL in the list 
<astraljava> You can also mark it 'In progress', though I must admit I haven't personally done that before. I guess this is more meant for use when time is short, and you need to have results in, and only a handful of people are doing the tests, so you divide the responsibilities.
<hobgoblin> I wasted ages on that 
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Yep, good addition.
<hobgoblin> thanks :)
<cc_INC> o/ Sorry, again a small question....oh gee, sorry for being a pain in the beezwax guys...but is testing a informal, whenever I have time for it I will get to it kinda thing. Or is it formal as in you need to do it otherwise you're off the testing team kinda thing?
<astraljava> It does nowadays say 'Comma separated list of bugs preventing you from passing the testcase', so the 'list of bugs' means a list of bug NUMBERS.
<astraljava> cc_INC: For the dailies, it's very informal. But for the milestone releases, we need to cover enough of them so that the image will be released.
<GridCube> cc_INC, we are all contributors with our free time
<hobgoblin> +1 to that 
<astraljava> cc_INC: No one will be kicked out of the community for not participating, though.
<astraljava> :)
<astraljava> Not even frowned upon. :)
<hobgoblin> I do have a question here related to bugs in general when there's time for it 
<cc_INC> Okay I understand. I will do my best to help where I can guys. I really want to help. Happy to hear that I can manage my own time by myself being a family man and all :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: I will do my best in answering it, but I'm not really a bug expert when it comes to ubuntu guidelines. But shoot.
<astraljava> cc_INC: Yep, do what you can, when you can, but only if you WANT to. :)
<hobgoblin> ok - so I tested the daily the other day - one of the tests is plug in a usb - if it mounts cool - it actually failed - the question is 
<hobgoblin> how do you work out WHAT to fille something against? 
<hobgoblin> what would I have filed a failure to mount a usb against?
<cc_INC> astraljava I really WANT to :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: You can ask on the channels (Xubuntu-specific or #ubuntu-bugs, for instance), check the LP bug lists for certain terms, use google for it (although we never tell anyone to "Go google it!"), whatever you can.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: ...or, just file the bug, and let the bug triagers point it to the right package.
<hobgoblin> lol
<hobgoblin> I try not to do that unless I have to :)
<hobgoblin> I try not to search launchpad either - therein lies pain
<astraljava> hobgoblin: We try not to be too limiting, cause we need to know about the problems. Making sure it's filed on the correct package from the first second on, isn't that important.
<hobgoblin> ok :)
<astraljava> cc_INC: Good to hear. :)
<pleia2> hobgoblin: I ask here for pretty much every bug I report ;)
<hobgoblin> pleia2: k
<hobgoblin> wb cc_INC 
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Basically it boils down to how computer and ubuntu-savvy you are. If you know about what deals with which functions, you can ease the work of the triagers by doing a bit of research on your own. But it isn't absolutely necessary.
<cc_INC> Sorry guys I got dropped out...:(
<astraljava> cc_INC: No worries. Welcome back.
<astraljava> But yeah, back to the filing results.
<astraljava> So if everything went as expected, just mark it as Passed, and you're done! YAY! :)
<cc_INC> Sounds great!!
<astraljava> But if you had problems, mark it as Failed, and depending on your mood, spare time, and tiredness, you can file and list the bugs that you stumbled upon, or if you found that LP already knows about some of them, just pick the existing bug numbers, and list them in appropriate text fields.
<astraljava> Critical bugs box (love the sound of that) is, as it says, bugs that prevent you from passing the testcase.
<astraljava> Now you might notice that the Bugs box (aaww...) can be used EVEN if you marked the result as Passed.
<astraljava> While everything listed in the testcase description works, you might still stumble upon some other bugs. This is your chance to make them noted.
<astraljava> So, to recap, the first box (Critical bugs) is used if you CANNOT pass the testcase. The next one for some bugs that you found, but could still complete the tests mentioned in the testcase description.
<astraljava> Everything clear so far?
<pleia2> I think we skipped what you actually test
<pleia2> there is the link to the testcase, but where do /Short /Long come in?
<astraljava> pleia2: Yeah, but cc_INC asked. :)
<astraljava> So I covered that now.
<pleia2> ok
<astraljava> Ok, the rest of the text boxes are all just FYI only. If you want, feel free to add information there. It's cool to see what hardware people tested on, but it isn't in anyway necessary.
<astraljava> If you have anything to add to the tests, or anything at all related to QA, you can type in the Comments box.
<astraljava> Alright, should we go through the /Short testcase now?
<cc_INC> Yup..
<astraljava> I'd like to suggest a short break. Take 5, everyone? :D
<cc_INC> astraljava you're explanation is crystal clear!! Thanks, doing a great job here..
<hobgoblin> yep
<pleia2> I created a couple wiki pages for my hardware profiles that I test with: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz/LenovoG575 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz/vbox15G
<astraljava> We've already chatted 1.5 hours by now. Wow..
<hobgoblin> time flies astraljava :)
<astraljava> pleia2: Cool! If you want, use those as examples, and create your own, and then link to them.
 * astraljava makes a mental note to wrap up in 1h 15min, the soccer games await... ;)
<hobgoblin> lol
<Os_Maleus> okay, astraljava, it took me some time to recognize that my brower war blocking me. I am in there now. 
<cc_INC> Yeah I also have some diner that's about to get ready anytime soon :)
<pleia2> Os_Maleus: yay!
 * hobgoblin desperately wanst whatever happens in footie to result in portugal going home 
<cc_INC> PORTUGAL?!?! Going home?!? WHY?!?! :)
<pleia2> haha
<hobgoblin> cos I'm English
<hobgoblin> :)
<cc_INC> I think our guys are going home!
<cc_INC> Ooops....going way way off-topic here. Sorry guys :)
<hobgoblin> we're having a 5 min break cc_INC :)
<cc_INC> Haha, in that case...
<cc_INC> I live in The Netherlands...I think our guys are gonna bite the dust.
<pleia2> astraljava: I do have a couple of action item type things I'd like to quickly discuss, but we can do that in 10 minutes or so toward the end of the meeting :)
<cc_INC> My money is either on Spain or Italy on winning the thing.
<hobgoblin> cc_INC: +1 to both of those 
<cc_INC> Although UK has been a pleasant surprise too man..geez.
<hobgoblin> :)
<astraljava> pleia2: Shoot.
 * astraljava finished hanging the laundry to dry, and grabbed a cider.
<astraljava> pleia2 can silence me if I start talking funny
<pleia2> hehe
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Cool!
<pleia2> so the first is that we used to have a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers and we still link it on the website and say "Xubuntu Testers team at Launchpad, which you should join after adding your information on the wik"
<pleia2> on the web side I think I just need to remove this wiki link and adjust the text for the launchpad team to tell people they can just join
<hobgoblin> I followed a bunch of those dead links 
<pleia2> (unless there is a defined new process that I missed)
<pleia2> hobgoblin: were there others?
<hobgoblin> yea - pretty sure - 2 secs
<pleia2> ah, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo is gone too
<astraljava> pleia2: Yeah, it's set as an open team now. No listing of testers is there anymore.
<pleia2> ok, essentially we need to fix http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/#testing ASAP because there are broken links :)
<pleia2> I think I'll just delete "The Xubuntu Testing Info page, which explains the testing process, including describing the tests you should conduct" too
<astraljava> pleia2: Alright. Hit me when you wanna go over it.
<pleia2> I think that pretty much covers it actually
<astraljava> Or... that works as well. :)
<pleia2> the other thing I have is action plan for 1) final review of /Short 2) basic review and then final review of /Long 3) move these to QA wiki
<pleia2> it would be nice to #action these now
<astraljava> It would, but sorry. :D
<pleia2> I can help review /Long
<pleia2> I suspect some things will change with Xfce 4.10, and even last cycle I think /Long had some errors
<astraljava> We already went through most of it with gnome, but it isn't published yet. I hope he has the changed document somewhere.
<pleia2> oh ok
<astraljava> But it'd be great if you would go through it.
<pleia2> I'll catch up with knome to make sure I'm reviewing the most current doc :)
<astraljava> Can you ping him about it? Or me, or I will, or whatever. :)
<astraljava> But let's try to do it ASAP.
 * pleia2 nods
<astraljava> Okay, we've had 10 now.
<pleia2> want me to update the website now? or do you have access?
<astraljava> Is everyone ready tO ROCK?!
<cc_INC> YEAH!!!
<astraljava> pleia2: I think I do, but I haven't used it ever.
 * hobgoblin is 
<pleia2> ok, I'll take care of it now
<astraljava> Thanks.
<cc_INC> ......Food is here...
<astraljava> *psst* guys... she's too sweet, please be nice to her, she's a rockstar really...
<astraljava> Okay, where were we?
<hobgoblin> astraljava pleia2 if anyone wants a 'just a user' to check these short/long pages I'm happy to do it
<astraljava> right, the /Short testcase.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Thanks, and really to everyone, you can always chat about the pages.
<astraljava> Or the procedures overall.
<astraljava> They're not set in stone.
<astraljava> People may notice things that could use enhancement.
<hobgoblin> k - thanks,  I'll stop interrupting so you can get on :)
<astraljava> Don't be afraid to voice these points, there could very well be things we're overlooking.
<cc_INC> I still have this window open, but I'm gonna get some chow now...but will be back after..
<astraljava> Sure.
<astraljava> Will you guys open the /Short testcase page now?
<astraljava> Ok, I assume you have it there, now.
<hobgoblin> yep
<astraljava> Wanna read it through first, before we delve deeper?
<hobgoblin> I have :)
<astraljava> Others? FiltroMan, Os_Maleus?
<Os_Maleus> I am still here. 
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short is the full link if you missed it
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Did you find the testcase page?
<Os_Maleus> I see, I have basically to start this "ubuntu-bug ubiquity" and then everything should run automatically. isn't it? 
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Not really, that's how you FILE a bug.
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Or where were you going when you thought of that?
<Os_Maleus> ... as far as Internet is available. 
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Yes, it depends on internet being available.
<Os_Maleus> well this test page is describing how to test everything properly. isn't it? 
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Yep, but it sort of expects you to have booted the image at that point.
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: You don't have to type anything in terminal to get there.
<Os_Maleus> I mean, whether all components are working like they should. 
<Os_Maleus> yes. 
<astraljava> That is true.
<astraljava> Okay, maybe I should start from the beginning.
<astraljava> Once you have downloaded the image, do you all know what to do next?
<astraljava> Or let me put it this way; you have two choices.
<Os_Maleus> then running this update of the immage with zsync. 
<astraljava> You can burn an image onto a blank CD/DVD, or make a USB stick that you can boot with.
<astraljava> Should we go over the ways of preparing these?
<astraljava> Or are you all familiar with how to do this?
<cc_INC> Just like a regular .iso right?
<cc_INC> xfce burn to burn the image or unetbootin to burn the usb?!?
<Os_Maleus> done it before. know how to prepare a bootable USB-stick with an iso-file. 
<astraljava> cc_INC: Yes, those work. If you chose the desktop image, then you can also use the Startup Disk Creator tool.
<cc_INC> Those are for the Alternate images?!?
<astraljava> Ok, so basically when you have booted that image, and if you're looking at the Live Session testcase that I was pointing to...
<cc_INC> mini.iso?
<astraljava> cc_INC: mini.iso is different.
<astraljava> It doesn't have a Desktop Environment at all.
<Os_Maleus> yes, it has basically the option to install or to try or something more. :-)
<astraljava> But yeah, I'm describing the work flow of the Live Session first.
<astraljava> We can go through the others later.
<astraljava> What you do is choose the 'Try Xubuntu without making changes to your system' or something like that.
<astraljava> You'll be taken to the desktop session at this point.
<astraljava> And at that point, you're already capable of starting to go through the testcase.
<astraljava> I kinda feel that the description is very self-explanatory.
<astraljava> Is there a real need to go through it point-by-point?
<astraljava> What if you ask if you're confused about anything on it?
<hobgoblin> astraljava: you talking of the wiki page now? 
<astraljava> Yes, now you have logged in to the Xubuntu session, and you're seeing the desktop ready.
<hobgoblin> k - I'm good with that - not sure of the others
<astraljava> By logged in I mean you're in the live session, no real need for logging in, but it seems as if you have.
<astraljava> You can at this point use all applications and services as if you had installed the system already.
<astraljava> Everything is in memory, though, and no changes to your existing system has been made, yet.
<Os_Maleus> no, there is no need from my side for going through that right now. 
<astraljava> But at this point you can take the steps mentioned in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short testcase description.
<Os_Maleus> okay. 
<Os_Maleus> But I hope You not to expect that from me to perform it immediately. ... As soon as I will have some free time, I will perform it. 
<astraljava> Right, so the first part of that is for the live session. But then you see the 'Post-install testing'.
<astraljava> This you need to do _if_ you decide to use the link on your desktop for installing the system.
<astraljava> Or let's not use 'need', but you are free to do, if...
<astraljava> Right. Anything to ask at this point?
<astraljava> I'd like to recap what we've gone through up until now.
<Os_Maleus> well, I have a question for that case, if I have installed already. ... the wifi doesn't work on one of my machines. ... what can I do? 
<Os_Maleus> until now, it seems to me, there would be no support for the adapter by the drivers. and this on several Xubuntu-versions. 
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: You can look for existing bugs on LP, you can ask on this channel or #ubuntu+1, you can write to the mailing list(s) asking for help in debugging, or you can file a bug about it.
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Right, if you have a very exotic network adapter, then there's not much we can do to help.
<cc_INC> okay I'm back..
<cc_INC> Dinner is digesing :)
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Then it's just a matter of filing a bug against linux (the kernel), and asking for implementation of the drivers for that adapter.
<Os_Maleus> well, it is a DELL machine. so, actually, it should be not that exotic. 
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: But you have to understand that that is a new feature, and kernel developers require help from the would-be users in order to develop those drivers.
<Os_Maleus> okay. 
<Os_Maleus> I see. 
<astraljava> Dell is a manufacturer of laptops and desktops, they don't produce all the necessary parts for those themselves.
<Os_Maleus> other working-station. :-)
<Os_Maleus> okay. 
<astraljava> Right, so if there are no other questions, let's go through what he have touched so far.
<astraljava> We've talked about where to find the images. We linked to the pages where to file the results, and how to file the results.
<astraljava> ...and how to get the results. :)
<astraljava> Anything to add to that?
<Os_Maleus> okay. all clear from my side, now. 
<Os_Maleus> thanks for taking Your time to explain everything with patience again! 
<cc_INC> Just browsed through what was said it's clear to me..
<cc_INC> If I get lost I can always ask on this channel?
<hobgoblin> yep
<Os_Maleus> I wish You all a calm day!
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: My pleasure. :)
<Os_Maleus> good to know. 
<Os_Maleus> ;-)
<Os_Maleus> bye!
<hobgoblin> cya Os_Maleus 
<astraljava> cc_INC: Yes, everytime, you can ask. Just bear in mind that many of us will be on the channel, but not physically AT the keyboard. :)
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: See you around!
<cc_INC> I understand
<pleia2> you can also use the mailing list if no one is around
<hobgoblin> cc_INC: I'm often about and have done this before - just never in a structured manner - so I'm new to a testing team 
<pleia2> it's also good for "I don't know if this is a bug, but.." questions
<cc_INC> I have never ever used a mailing list before...but might look into it too.
<cc_INC> hobgoblin thanks buddy.
<astraljava> Ok, so if there are no other questions, let's go through a few other items.
<astraljava> That is, if you have any energy left, still.
<astraljava> Or should we book another meeting already for those? :)
<pleia2> I think we should plan another meeting
<astraljava> I admit that 1.5 hours is quite sufficient for one meeting already.
 * pleia2 peers at the clock
<pleia2> 2.5
<astraljava> Oh, oops.
<astraljava> ;)
<astraljava> Right. pleia2, wasn't it 3 weeks apart that we wanted to see these meetings happen?
<pleia2> yeah, but since we're still covering fundamental stuff we may want another one sooner
<astraljava> Good point. Already in one week from now?
<hobgoblin> I'd agree with that 
<pleia2> sounds good
<pleia2> same bat time?
<astraljava> WorksForMeâ¢
<pleia2> k, I'll add it to the calendar
<astraljava> Excellent, and I'll write a loose 'minutes' to the lists.
<astraljava> ...and mention it there.
<pleia2> great
<cc_INC> Next week Sunday?! I don't think I can attend then :(
<hobgoblin> thanks astraljava 
<hobgoblin> cc_INC: the channel is logged 
<astraljava> cc_INC: Don't worry, you can check the logs, and ask questions anytime.
<cc_INC> GREAT!!!! Thanks! That way I don't have to miss a thing. Thanks guys (Y)
<astraljava> Thanks for participating, and making Xubuntu better! :)
 * astraljava calls the meeting sort of ended, though it never really was started. :)
<cc_INC> It's a pleasure! I really want to help make Xubuntu a better distro and getting there one soul at a time :)
<hobgoblin> cya all soon - I'm off to relax for 10 before the footie 
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<cc_INC> hobgoblin enjoy the game mate
<cc_INC> :)
<hobgoblin> :)
<micahg> pleia2: that project that knome linked to is the upstream project, the packageset is based on the seed which produces the xubuntu-desktop package in the archive
<pleia2> micahg: ah, gotcha
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-10
<ochosi> so now that ios7 looks fugly, where will we copy our designs from? :}
<Noskcaj> random people on xfce-look?
<Noskcaj> ;)
<Unit193> Blackberry, or maybe Android.
<ochosi> well i'll give you a dollar if you find anything all-too-great on xfce-look :)
<ochosi> especially the lack of organisation drove me away from that site
<Noskcaj> ochosi, when i used heaps of themes i found upubuntu to be a good source
<ochosi> never heard of that
<Noskcaj> upubuntu.com they run PPAs for many small-time theme artists
<Noskcaj> the xubuntu link in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/#QA_related_teams is broken. what should we have it link to?
<Noskcaj> the Studio link is also broken
<pleia2> Noskcaj: just /qa
<Noskcaj> ok, i'll fix
<pleia2> thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-11
<ochosi> micahg, mr_pouit: could one of you please set up a xubuntu-artwork branch for saucy? i have a fix for plymouth (finally fixes multi-head troubles) that could go into raring as well, but it'd be good to have a separate branch for the saucy series
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-12
<Noskcaj> shouldn't our topic now have the saucy or raring release schedule. quantal is old
<Noskcaj> Unit193, shouldn't our topic now have the saucy or raring release schedule. quantal is old
<Unit193> Yeah.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, can you fix it or do we need knome? 
<elfy> just need someone with ops in the channel
<Unit193> ^
<elfy> but it's hardly important ;)
<elfy> if people don't know they're probably in the wrong channel ... 
<Noskcaj> And who are they? 
<Noskcaj> elfy: it annoys me, so i will get someone to fix it.
<elfy> as you get older you find that getting annoyed at little things is a waste of time :)
<Noskcaj> elfy, i'm not older yet, so i will get annoyed by this and then my brothers (all 4 of them) singing about minecraft
<Noskcaj> ;)
<elfy> ochosi: I just found that using the greeter from your ppa fixes the shutdown error I've been getting https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1178373
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1178373 in xfce4-session (Ubuntu) "Restart spawns a password box" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Noskcaj> also, to whoever put the little dots in the background of the installer wallpaper: we can't  see the dot's, you wasted your time
<Noskcaj> elfy, yay, a bug fiix
<elfy> apparently so :)
<elfy> shall send mail to list today about testing for alpha1
<Noskcaj> ok, looks like we've got a few bugs already.
<Noskcaj> two of which are from a strange hate of sydney
<elfy> lol
<Noskcaj> it's only partly a joke. 
<ochosi> elfy: when is a1 due?
<ochosi> (and good to hear the greeter works as expected, although i'm not sure this behavior was the greeter's fault in the first place)
<elfy> ochosi: as far as I know - and the release schedule is all wrong - but the cadence week 1, which matches a1 is the 15th
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> cause it'd be nice to get an upload of artwork stuff that happened since R to saucy
<elfy> ochosi: the bug was with the default greeter (or some other package tied up with it) I added the ppa to this install yesterday ansd shutdown worked
<ochosi> ok nice
<elfy> I assume that your greeter is going to be default
<ochosi> yup
<Unit193> Is it a major UI change?
<elfy> I might write a testcase up for it so we've got something to test it with
<elfy> Unit193: well I got lost :)
<elfy> ochosi: and it's going to be in Saucy? if so I'll do a bug for testcase and assign it to me 
<Noskcaj> ochosi, have you got xscreensaver working with a less scary image yet?
<ochosi> elfy: yes, as soon as someone uploads it there, it'll land in saucy
<elfy> ok - I'll do this but now then
<ochosi> Noskcaj: we have a replacement in the works, but it's only 90% finished (suspend and hibernate need to be fixed, the rest works)
<Noskcaj> ochosi, ok. do you think it will be out in time for 13.10
<ochosi> Noskcaj: i dunno, i have a lot of work to do in RL in the next weeks, we'll see
<Noskcaj> ok
<ochosi> depends, maybe someone else can add the missing 10%
<ochosi> gotta make coffee, bbl
<Noskcaj> bye
<elfy> ochosi: cya
<Unit193> ochosi: Have a good drink.
<Noskcaj> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1186825
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1186825 in Xubuntu "Screenshot help menu failed" [Undecided,New]
<ochosi> Noskcaj: this bug has been reported upstream already, i linked to it (it's nice to always check in upstream's bugtracker whether a bug is already known so you can link to it or check whether it has been fixed there yet)
<Noskcaj> ochosi, thanks. i didn't know what the screenshot program was called, and the xfce bug tracker scares me
<ochosi> Noskcaj: it really isn't that scary at all, you can use the browse-mode to check components (the search function doesn't always return what you want in my experience)
 * Noskcaj doesn't believe ochosi 
<Noskcaj> i just tried to use the tab button to make the word "believe" *facepalm*
<GridCube> its there an agenda for tomorrows meeting?
<GridCube> so... no?
<pleia2> GridCube: agenda is always at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<GridCube> but theres no agenda there
<pleia2> yes there is
<pleia2> lots of things under "New and emerging items"
<pleia2> LTS, new greeter, testing
<GridCube> oh i see :)
<GridCube> sorry
<GridCube> thnks pleia2 :)
<pleia2> you're welcome
<rowboatnick> when is 15UTC?
<rowboatnick> Oh, right. Nvm
<skellat> Added a couple tiny agenda items
<skellat> Grumble grumble grumble: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1190406
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1190406 in pidgin-microblog (Debian) "pidgin-microblog: Plugin is not Twitter API 1.1 Compliant" [Undecided,New]
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-13
<Unit193> Reminder of the meeting tomorrow, Thursday, June 13 at 15:00 UTC.
<pleia2> oh bother, that's the break-o-dawn meeting
<pleia2> (well, 8AM)
<Unit193> Yeah, I'll have to read scrollback...
<Unit193> About the LTS/normal subpoints, 1. Yes  2. No  3. No
<gry> Meeting in this channel?
<Unit193> Yes indeed.
<Noskcaj> Why does the default mouse theme not have a preview?
<Noskcaj> elfy, i've put up another xubuntu related manual test, would you mind proof-reading it for me?
<GridCube> :) hi
<elfy> hi GridCube 
<ochosi> meeting in 50mins, right?
<knome> yes
<knome> zequence, that's completely fine. do whatever you want with it (just keep attribution and i'm happy)
<knome> fix what?
<zequence> knome: Wow. that reply was dealyed. Have you been on vacation?
<knome> zequence, at summer cottage since friday :)
<GridCube> o: knome @'ed himself!
<ochosi> yeah, guess he's changing the topic...
* knome changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Daily Testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<knome> that's it
<zequence> the summer has really started well up here in the north. hot days..
<GridCube> o: knome de@'ed himself!
<knome> GridCube, is that a script or should i just slap you? :P
<knome> zequence, yes, though it rained quite a lot yesterday ;)
<GridCube> P: none of the above
<zequence> knome: I think more rain might be coming soon. It was heading that way (was raining early today)
<knome> zequence, i've no idea. i haven't read/watched the news since friday :)
<zequence> it's tough being disconnected from the collective
<zequence> my vacation this year will be DebConf13 :P
<bluesabre> s/tough/refreshing
<knome> very refreshing!
<knome> no computers, no internet, no stupid work things to think about...
<zequence> knome: did you go fishing, or you just hanged around the house?
 * micahg-work can't promise to be around for the whole meeting, but will try
<bluesabre> same here
<micahg-work> ochosi, you should be able to push a raring branch on your own for xubuntu-artwork
<knome> zequence, mostly hanged around. played board games, ate, went to sauna
<micahg-work> just branch from the last raring commit
<zequence> knome: Ah, yeas. sauna, and some fresh air
<knome> that's all you need!
<knome> i need to update packages
<knome> and eat something
<knome> brb
<ochosi> micahg-work: well i pushed a commit recently that isn't included in raring (at least not yet)
<micahg-work> ochosi, that's fine, just keep pushing stuff there
<micahg-work> I can branch raring later
<ochosi> ok
<micahg-work> or you can
<ochosi> you mean saucy?
<micahg-work> ochosi, no
<ochosi> ah right
<micahg-work> devel release is trunk
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> ok, then i'll just keep pushing stuff there
<pleia2> morning
<knome> pleia2, hey!
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 13 14:59:14 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<lderan> Hello
<knome> #chair pleia2 
<meetingology> Current chairs: knome pleia2
 * skellat is present for the meeting
<Joshun> hi
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<knome> no items carried on.
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> please use #info and #action for team updates
<knome> anybody has any news since the three nights of xubuntu?
<pleia2> yeah, some marketing
<bluesabre> hey everyone :)
<pleia2> #info Contacted unixstickers.com and they're happy to do case badges :) plus send us some for free (instead of straight cash profit sharing)
<knome> \o/
<knome> sounds good
<ochosi> knome: what kind of news are you looking for? :)
<knome> ochosi, team updates eg. "what have you done" ?
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> i fixed multi-monitor support of plymouth
<pleia2> they did ask that we promote them somehow, so we can chat about that later (link, blog post)
<ochosi> oh, sry pleia2 
<pleia2> no, go for it
 * ochosi thought you were done
<pleia2> sorry :)
<knome> pleia2, we will definitely want to link them, otherwise it's hard for people to find those stickers :P
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> pleia2, btw, would they do regular stickers as well?
<skellat> #info Merge proposed for the seed to put apt-offline in.  Bug placed to update the metapackage.  Waiting for action on the merge which will then allow the metapackage update to happen later.
<ochosi> #info Improved multi-monitor support for our Plymouth theme
<bluesabre> I've started doing some sponsored packaging on debian, learning the ropes
<knome> yay bluesabre 
<knome> bluesabre, can you #info that?
<ochosi> #info Started a new icon-theme addon for our default icon theme that will make some of the toolbar-icons monochrome
<pleia2> knome: could do, only was focusing on casebadges for now since that's what we're struggling with quality-wise
<elfy> #Manual testcases being created for Xubuntu apps
<ochosi> #info Greybird and Bluebird (from git) now support Gtk3.8
<bluesabre> #info Started doing some sponsored packaging on debian
<elfy> #info Manual testcases being created for Xubuntu apps
<bluesabre> #info LightDM GTK+ Greeter 1.6 released, probably not in repos yet
<elfy> #info Autopilot testing being looked at by lderan
<skellat> #info Got sponsored sync from Debian Experimental completed of apt-offline 1.3 to Ubuntu archive.  1.3 has been in experimental since January.  Tested it for a while in my testing PPA and it did not explode so requested and received sync.
<ochosi> #info Trying to fix suspend and hibernate in light-locker, so we can use lightdm as lockscreen in Xubuntu and (finally) drop xscreensaver
<pleia2> so much good news!
<knome> yes!
<lderan> woo \o/
<knome> i should leave the team to work on things more often it seems :P
<bluesabre> nah, finished those things weeks ago :P
<knome> haha
<knome> thanks for the support to have a break ;)
<pleia2> clearly the answer is fewer meetings :)
<knome> probably
<knome> anything else?
<micahg-work> :(  I like xscreensaver...
<knome> aww
<knome> #chair micahg-work 
<meetingology> Current chairs: knome micahg-work pleia2
 * micahg-work doesn't need to be a chair
<pleia2> I won't miss the "omg fire" reactions from users
<knome> meetingology, no, but i usually add any team leads who are around as chairs.
<meetingology> knome: Error: "no," is not a valid command.
<knome> micahg-work too
<skellat> #info Pondering what to do about the shift to chromium in the base Ubuntu seed.  Will need to coordinate with Micah Gersten and Lionel LeFolgoc about possible doing an exclusion in the Xubuntu seed to ensure we keep Firefox in our install if we so choose instead of inheriting from the base.
<knome> #chair ochosi 
<meetingology> Current chairs: knome micahg-work ochosi pleia2
 * micahg-work isn't even a team lead...
<ochosi> micahg-work: i don't like that it's impossible to change anything about xscreensaver
<elfy> lot of chairs
<knome> haha
<knome> you are correct.
<micahg-work> ochosi, what do you mean?
<knome> #chair skellat elfy lderan 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome lderan micahg-work ochosi pleia2 skellat
<knome> :P
<ochosi> micahg-work: style-wise, you can't even remove the stupid xscreensaver-logo (the firery thing pleia2 mentioned)
<ochosi> micahg-work: and i'd argue that there is some (visual) consistency to using the login-screen as lock-screen
<knome> anyway... if we have broader issues, can we discuss them in "new items", or in smaller groups less officially after the meeting?
<ochosi> sure
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> #subtopic Xubuntu release team
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-release
<micahg-work> ochosi, sounds like a feature request for jwz?
<knome> There's now a Xubuntu release team
<bluesabre> \o/
<knome> this team is able to set images ready for release in the iso tracker
<knome> it will always consist of the XPL, the testing lead and one or two developers
<bluesabre> sounds handy
<knome> basically it will need to be people who are aware of the state of the images near the (milestone) releases to be able to make informed decisions
<knome> so far i'm the only one in the team, but i'll add elfy today after we've officially agreed that my proposal is fine
<knome> is there anybody who disagrees with xubuntu release team being XPL + testing/QA lead + some developer(s)
<knome> (with arguments, please :P)
<GridCube> not me :)
<lderan> nope sounds good to me
<bluesabre> +1
<knome> also, is there a developer (micah, sean) who would like to be in the team?
<bluesabre> I'd like to be on it, but I am not an official "Xubuntu developer" yet
<knome> yes, i would say it would be good to have somebody with upload rights on the team
<micahg-work> I'm not around enough during release time to be able to keep track of everything
<knome> if and as it seems bluesabre is getting them sooner or later, i wouldn't mind if bluesabre was the one in the team though
<micahg-work> I don't think upload rights inherently matter
<knome> no, but it would be ++
<micahg-work> you can't "upload" images
<knome> no, but you can upload things that can fix images
<knome> or things in images
<knome> my argument is that it would be handy to have somebody who is both aware of the situation and able to fix things
<knome> to avoid stupid bugs getting in
<skellat> We can still handle bug killing through normal processes
<bluesabre> Still dependent on somebody with upload rights for anything Xubuntu-specific
<knome> skellat, usually, but as we have seen, it can be a pain in the back if we don't have people with upload rights around and we're really close to a (milestone) release
<knome> of course we don't want to have to fix things last-minute, but things happen
<lderan> indeed they do
<skellat> This is a cycle where we can take that gamble.  14.04 will be a different story but this round we can afford to take that gamble as the support window is only 9 months.
<knome> skellat, that sounds like a different discussion :)
<knome> anyway
<elfy> if you ask me - if bluesabre is happy to do so add him - we can amend as we go 
<knome> #action knome adds elfy to ~xubuntu-release, sends email about adding other members later
<meetingology> ACTION: knome adds elfy to ~xubuntu-release, sends email about adding other members later
<knome> first part done.
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic Discuss about LTS/normal releases after changes to the release support length
<knome> * Do we still want to keep normal releases as stable as they are now, or should we use less manpower for that? 
<knome> * Should LTS release always be the proposed release and normal releases "not encouraged"? 
<knome> * Should we follow the lead of Mythbuntu and only release LTS to LTS? 
<knome> so?
<GridCube> stability its a must
<bluesabre> People will lose interest if we become LTS-only
<knome> GridCube, arguments?
<knome> bluesabre, ^
<ochosi> i think that doing releases is good practice and motivation to squash bugs
<ochosi> people tend to do stuff last-minute, which would be extremely bad if we only have lts releases...
 * pleia2 agrees
<GridCube> i've said this before, but we have to provide a desktop that massive deployers would want to have in count for work enviroments, we should be the first option there
<bluesabre> Everyone wants the latest features, developers need a playground to add features, test, and fix bugs
<pleia2> so in ubuntu-land it was found that unless something specifically keeps people back (like the switch to unity ;)), most people upgrade to the next 6 month release pretty quickly, so it's not like the switch from 18 to 9 months of support actually changes all that much
<GridCube> lts its important, but stable releases every 6 months provide bug patches and better work
<GridCube> i mean better software
<knome> i agree that the normal (or "interim") releases are a good way to motivate people
<pleia2> calling them "interim" devalues them, no likey :)
<GridCube> i like the release cycle we have now
<pleia2> they are regular releases
<knome> okay.
<lderan> i do like the current cycle as well
<skellat> At this point, as long as the upgrade path is stable and consistent I am fine with releases.  We have to ensure an appropriate mindset with our user base, though, that updating can in fact be good for them.  When I look through AskUbuntu at Xubuntu questions it seems odd when I see questions about End Of Life versions just sitting there or people holding onto the past.
<pleia2> skellat: I think people who stay on old releases just don't understand how this all works (and I hope they are a minority)
<GridCube> we should make sure that the standard packages we provide are stable and will work well
<pleia2> afterall, windows xp worked for like 10 years :) why wouldn't xubuntu?
<knome> one of the things keeping some xubuntu users not up-to-date is their (sometimes justified) fear that the newer version won't run (smoothly enough) on their PC's
<GridCube> from update to update
<ochosi> i agree with pleia2 that we shouldn't devalue our releases, we should certainly encourage people to upgrade
<skellat> pleia2: That WinXP view of things frightens me.  We have to adequately inform and educate our user base to avoid it.
<bluesabre> I agree that normal releases should maintain their stability, like GridCube mentioned, we have "customers" that probably depend on not having to install every 6-9 months
<knome> sounds like people are willing to put the effort to release every 6 months
<knome> let's do a simple vote.
<skellat> #idea There may be a need alongside continuing releasing every six months to increase user education as to the appropriateness and value of updating & upgrading
<knome> skellat, agreed. want to work on a blog article or something?
<skellat> knome: I'll take that as an action item
<knome> skellat, you should be able to draft that on xubuntu.org, and others are able to review and give feedback. when it's ready, we'll hit publish :)
<knome> thanks
<skellat> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
<pleia2> \o/
<lderan> \o/
<knome> #vote Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<elfy> +1
<ochosi> +1
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<lderan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from lderan
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ?
<meetingology> Votes for:9 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> next!
<GridCube> :)
<knome> #topic Organizing testing for Saucy
<knome> #subtopic New greeter - when is it likely to land? Do we want to do a specific call for testing it? 
<GridCube> where its information about this new greeter?
<GridCube> it will be touchscreen friendly?
<knome> ochosi, bluesabre?
<pleia2> brb
<bluesabre> one sec
<knome> me brb too
<ochosi> meh, i have a phone-call (work), that might take a bit...
<bluesabre> #link release announcement: http://www.smdavis.us/2013/06/03/lightdm-gtk-greeter-1-6-0-released/
<GridCube> (i've read that the new "variety" wallpaper changer program can be set up to update the lightdm wallpaper to match the current wallpaper of the desktop, can this option be added to the xfce menus somewhere?)
<bluesabre> how soon do we want it?  I can do a sponsored upload tonight
<elfy> bluesabre: well it needs testing somehow 
<bluesabre> ppa
<bluesabre> one sec
<elfy> I can do a testcase for it pretty quicky - then it's just working out how to get it on the qa tracker
<bluesabre> we have a daily ppa for it presently
<bluesabre> #link https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+archive/daily
<bluesabre> I will create a stable release ppa soon
<elfy> yea - I have that here 
<knome> elfy, i'm able to help with that
<elfy> knome: ok 
<GridCube> also, whats with that picture on the greeter? how can xubuntu users put their pictures tehre?
<bluesabre> ~/.face
<lderan> ah
<GridCube> bluesabre: can that be edited on the setting menu?
<bluesabre> I think the user manager might support setting user-image, ochosi?
<elfy> knome: also need to sort out so can approve testcases for us 
<bluesabre> if not, I'll look into getting a patch in for it
<knome> elfy, i can approve.
<knome> elfy, and i can make you able to approve
<elfy> that works
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to create lightdm-gtk-greeter stable PPA
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to create lightdm-gtk-greeter stable PPA
<knome> are concerned people fine with this information, or do we need to discuss further
<elfy> I can let slickymaster know to mark me as someone to check his testcases
<elfy> knome: hang on
<knome> (we/you can always come back to that later after the meeting)
<knome> oki
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre and ochosi to investigate setting user profile image
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre and ochosi to investigate setting user profile image
<elfy> I've not actually got any answers :)
<knome> you're correct :P
<elfy> do we want to test this new greeter specifically - I'd say yes
<knome> yup
<bluesabre> should I go ahead and create an action item to get the sponsored upload started?
<elfy> bluesabre and ochosi can let me know when it's going to be released - then we can set up test on qa and then I can mail the list about it 
<knome> if it's distinctly different than the last greeter at least ;)
<knome> bluesabre, if you're ok with getting a sponsored upload with that, sure
<pleia2> elfy: yes, mail the list, I'm very lazy and won't test until there is a specific call and the instructions are very clear :)
<elfy> well it was distinct enough for me to say it was broken :)
<elfy> pleia2: exactly what I want to be avoiding :)
<pleia2> (I kid, it's less "no time" than lazy, if I can spin it up and test in less than an hour I'm much more likely to)
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to set up sponsored upload for lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to set up sponsored upload for lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6
<pleia2> s/less/more
<knome> bluesabre, that probably is blocked until we've got testing done though
<bluesabre> yeah
<elfy> knome: well we can get people to test from the ppa 
<knome> elfy, sure :)
<elfy> though they'll need greybird from git as well 
<knome> ok, that leads us to...
<knome> #subtopic Is there anything anyone knows of presently that we need to plan for testing? 
<knome> display-dialog?
<rowboatnick> o/
<knome> are we going to introduce that?
<bluesabre> depends on xfce-4.12
<knome> ok
<knome> bluesabre, anything else from you and simon?
<bluesabre> not presently
<GridCube> what about network conectivity from thunar
<bluesabre> I think abiword 3.0 might be hitting the saucy repos soon
<GridCube> like for shared networks
<GridCube> i dont really like relaying on gigolo
<knome> bluesabre, if that happens, will you (#action) be in touch with elfy and organize testing if needed?
<elfy> basically what I need is to know in advance of things we want testing so I can get everything in place before 
<knome> exactly
<elfy> and avoid last minute rushes for testing things
<bluesabre> knome, display dialog or abiword?
<elfy> #action elfy create greeter testcase
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy create greeter testcase
<rowboatnick> What I want to do, is fix and write more test cases for autopilot
<bluesabre> +1
<bluesabre> I need to read up on autopilot, I've seen a lot of exchanges over it recently
<elfy> rowboatnick: that's good - because that is above my head atm 
<knome> bluesabre, abiword. if 4.12 lands, we will have to discuss testing generally quite a bit more anyway
<rowboatnick> elfy: if i write some, can you push them?
<GridCube> :D new lightdm has onscreen keyboard! 
<lderan> ooo
<bluesabre> knome, I'll try to keep up to date on it
<knome> rowboatnick, if elfy can't, i can, and if i can't, i can make somebody do that
<elfy> rowboatnick: once knome has made it so I can 
<knome> bluesabre, ta
<rowboatnick> okay, roger
<lderan> i should have a touch display soon, so will be able to help out with testing
<knome> elfy, if you seem to miss any permissions after being added to ~xubuntu-release, just ask balloons to give you more
<elfy> knome: ok 
<elfy> rowboatnick: I'd like to know if things are being done QA wise anyway :)
<knome> that's pretty much what i'd need to do too, this way you'll just get it quicker
<knome> the last subtopic for this item
<knome> #subtopic Alpha 1 release is June 20th (one week away). Are we opting in or opting out? 
<elfy> knome: well noscaj had something he wanted me to look at - so I should be able to see 
<knome> i would say opt-out, since we don't have xfce 4.12 around yet.
<elfy> ok - I can go with that 
<GridCube> will it be ready before 13.10?
<knome> we might want to discuss a2/a3 more thoroughly regardless of 4.12 state, but for a1... we really haven't done anything big yet
<bluesabre> yeah, we don't have any of our new stuff in saucy yet, and people will report bugs about greybird and gtk3.8
<knome> ...that leads us to...
<pleia2> knome: sounds good
<knome> #topic What is the story from upstream Xfce on 4.12's release situation? 
<bluesabre> ochosi ^
<elfy> knome: quick question 
<bluesabre> knome, last thing I saw, ochosi mailed xfce-dev about the current status
<knome> (and re: a1, we basically just need to opt-in, so if we don't do anything, we don't get a milestone release)
<bluesabre> with no response
<knome> bluesabre, same here
<knome> elfy, sure? :)
<elfy> is there a way that we can run with an image for a week ignoring alpha's and cadence week - so we can test when WE need to?
<bluesabre> we can try to ping Nick about it
<knome> elfy, that might be possible, we probably need to be in touch with balloons/stgraber about that
<elfy> ok - well I'll find out
<knome> elfy, though that would basically be really close to having a decent "release" (and just not pushing release notes)
<knome> (or announcement)
<elfy> yep
<elfy> I'm just trying to think ahead 
<GridCube> can't we blame it to extra care on stability? P:
<knome> elfy, ta. #ubuntu-quality is a good place to ask that - when you do, ping me as well so i'll be able to track where we're going to
<elfy> knome: ok
<skellat> #idea Release team to formally opt out of Alpha 1 and request that, when ready, daily builds get halted so that we have a particular exemplar to test before Alpha 2 or Alpha 3.
<knome> GridCube, i'm not sure if i follow your question
<skellat> #idea Contact Xfce upstream again to find out what is going on with 4.12
<elfy> #action elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us
<knome> #action ochosi to poke xfce guys about 4.12 again
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to poke xfce guys about 4.12 again
<GridCube> its not a question, i say that if we ask for extra time we can blame that time on taking extra care on having a stable alpha
<GridCube> P:
<knome> skellat, re idea #1: that would basically be the same as "releasing" alpha 1 without release announcements.
<knome> skellat, which is something we can do if we want.
<skellat> knome: It would be a really, really, really late Alpha 1 though
<skellat> knome: Meh.  Upon further reflection, if we still don't have word from upstream we should just skip Alpha 1 and let it roll away.  We're still getting bugs from the dailies already as it is.
<skellat> #idea Upgrade xubuntu-bugs on LP into a proper team
<knome> yeah, i'm all for skipping alpha 1. there's not really much what we want to do with the alpha testing
<knome> skellat, proper being... what?
<knome> skellat, the team is created to act as an easy way to not make -devel/-team receive all bug mail about the world
<skellat> knome: Have it integrated into overarching bug-squashing so that it can also do bug management
<skellat> i.e. set severity levels like WON'TFIX and reassign bugs
<pleia2> would require us to make the team no longer open (and someone to manage joining)
<skellat> Ah
<knome> we have -devel for that pretty much :)
<pleia2> otherwise anyone could just join and go to town on crazy marking of our bugs ;)
<lderan> I plan on looking at seeing if i can fix some bugs soon P:
<knome> +1
<skellat> pleia2: True
<bluesabre> +100
<skellat> I'll drop that idea then
<knome> :)
<pleia2> not actually saying it's a bad idea, but it would need a manager
<skellat> pleia2: Which would be something to table for a later meeting so that it could be more fully developed
<knome> i don't think we have enough people to form a "xubuntu bug squad"
<pleia2> skellat: +1
<knome> i wonder what the requirements are to join the ubuntu bug squad
<elfy> masochism I think
<bluesabre> I think its largely interacting with a lot of ubuntu bugs across the board
<bluesabre> and a dash of masochism
<elfy> thought as much :p
<GridCube> and 32hours a day
<lderan> woo
<knome> OOPS! i *am* in that team
<elfy> lol
<knome> apparently getting a membership in a random LP team helps as well
<pleia2> hah
<skellat> Yeah, lets table that until next meeting so that that idea can be fleshed out more and so that knome can figure out how he is in Ubuntu Bug Squad
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> hehe
<knome>  Pasi Lallinaho â Ubuntu Documentation Committers â Ubuntu Bug Control
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol
<knome> that's the team we're talking about, for reference
<pleia2> cool, I'm on it too
<knome> skellat, will you take an #action item?
<knome> pleia2, yeah, via even more steps
 * pleia2 nods
<skellat> knome: Yep
<knome> ta
<micahg-work> FWIW, I think alpha 2 or 3 is important since there were toolchain changes this cycle (sorry for being a bit delayed)
<pleia2> good to know
<knome> micahg-work, yup, we're opting-in for one at least most probably
<skellat> #action skellat to develop a proposal for consideration at next scheduled meeting for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat to develop a proposal for consideration at next scheduled meeting for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
<knome> micahg-work, do you think it would be good to opt-in for A2 regardless of xfce 4.12 state?
<micahg-work> one of the two
 * micahg-work looks at schedule
<micahg-work> whichever one we can get testing for
<knome> oki
<knome> #topic Desktop of the Week / Featured desktop -feature on the website
<knome> pleia2, 
<micahg-work> if 4.12 looks promising before a3, wait for that, otherwise, a2 would probably be better as that's more lead time to fix potential ssues
<pleia2> #info we have some volunteers, but my other bullet points for requirements haven't yet been satisfied
<knome> micahg-work, will raise that up before A2. ta :)
<micahg-work> but in the end, it comes down to someone having time to coordinate the testing around the release
<pleia2> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-June/008957.html
<GridCube> what are those pleia2 ?
<knome> micahg-work, we have elfy for that, so...
<pleia2> GridCube: submission guidelines and submission mechanism
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to draft submission guidelines and send to list for review
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to draft submission guidelines and send to list for review
<GridCube> oh, it will depend on the envirement we use to gather the submissions
<rowboatnick> I dont understand this, why would Xubuntu, who makes a desktop that looks like X, show off how people have modified their desktop to look like Y?
 * micahg-work doesn't know elfy's Summer/Winter vacation plans...
<GridCube> but i assure you that that can be easily filtered and sorted ou
<GridCube> t
<pleia2> nantou: people like it and have been asking for years
<pleia2> err rowboatnick 
<pleia2> sorry nantou :)
<rowboatnick> okay 
<elfy> micahg-work: elfy has no money so has none at all
<pleia2> defaults are nice, but lots of cool customization happens in our community
<knome> pleia2, lol, n and r aren't even close to each other!
<pleia2> knome: it's early :)
<GridCube> rowboatnick: when you are shopping for OS having desktops its a HUGE plus
<GridCube> people leaveing windows 8 will find xubuntu ubber awesome if they can see it :D
<elfy> rowboatnick: people like seeing what others have done - the forum has to have monthly threads for the same thing
<GridCube> :) because its pretty
<micahg-work> elfy, in that case, I'd say go for alpha 2 and then alpha 3 if there are a lot of fixes/changes between the two (only 2 weeks though), alpha 2 -> beta 1 freeze is 6 weeks which is a nice chunk of time to fix stuff
<lderan> GridCube agreed :D
<knome> rewrite the timebooks?
<knome> oh
<elfy> micahg-work: ok - that's good
<elfy> thanks
<knome> nvm my comment
<knome> :D
<GridCube> we have to set up a requierement list for the desktop images
<elfy> :)
<knome> GridCube, ?
<GridCube> like, what kind of content its not allowed, if it should show open windows (else it would simply be a wallpaper), if they have to showcase default xubuntu applications, or can show stuff like nautilus or what not
<pleia2> GridCube: that will be part of the submission guidelines I'm writing
<knome> aha, wallpapers you mean, not images
<pleia2> GridCube: please offer suggestions once I send the draft to the list :)
<GridCube> we want to showoff xubuntu, or linuxverse
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> anyway
<knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
<knome> thu, 27 june
<elfy> suits me
<pleia2> I'll be out of town for work
<knome> ...and 15UTC
<pleia2> go ahead without me
<micahg-work> wfm
<knome> pleia2, yeah, i was thinking about that :)
<skellat> I'm okay with that scheduling
<knome> good
<knome> #endmeeting
<bluesabre> Should work for me too
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 13 16:18:21 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-06-13-14.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-06-13-14.59.html
<GridCube> +1
<knome> ta!
<pleia2> thanks knome 
<elfy> thanks 
<bluesabre> thanks knome
<knome> i'll add the meeting minutes to the wiki later
<knome> i got to take some time off PC now
<elfy> yep - cya knome 
<rowboatnick> cya
<knome> (haven't adjusted to sitting 8h in front of PC yet and we also have a new 46" TV)
<pleia2> what, you just had days away
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> ^
<knome> i'm going to have more days off in the following weeks :P
<bluesabre> knome, agreed
<knome> so, have fun
<knome> ->
<lderan> :P
<ochosi> ok, now i'm back
<elfy> welcome back :)
<ochosi> knome, bluesabre: i sent an email to xfce-dev ml about 4.12 release dates but there was no response from anyone (well practically Nick is the only one who really has a say on this)
<ochosi> so yeah, i'm not expecting anything from there anytime soon
<ochosi> and yeah, the .face image can't currently be changed with a gui
<ochosi> it is usually set up at install time, iirc ubiquity has a dialog included for that
<elfy> it does
<rowboatnick> elfy: how did you download all the testcases?
<elfy> if you've got a webcam it tries to do that 
<ochosi> i consider it very strange that the user-settings we currently have doesn't support that
<elfy> rowboatnick: I do bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-tests inside the folders I work in 
<elfy> but that's for manual tests
<rowboatnick> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-autopilot-tests
<rowboatnick> i guess then
<elfy> yea think so 
 * rowboatnick deleted his VM he used for testcases, as it was 32 bit :<
<elfy> but I do it for each thing I'm working on - I have them in different folders - I get confused  :)
<rowboatnick> ah
<GridCube> ochosi: it would be good if we can get that picture setting added to user settings and if we could add the option to mirror the desktop wallpaper change to lightdm's too
<ochosi> GridCube: the wallpaper is already used/changed in lightdm
<GridCube> mmm i havent noticed that, how you enable it?
<ochosi> user-settings is in gnome-system-tools, so might be hard to get in the patch
<bluesabre> GridCube, if the wallpaper you have selected is installed system-wide, lightdm will use it
<bluesabre> ie in /usr/share/backgrounds
<GridCube> mmm... i will have to test that, but in any case my wallpapers are in ~/.share/xfce4/backdrops and they never match
<ochosi> home folders are protected, so...
<GridCube> mmm systemwide?
<GridCube> how you set systemwide, you set a walpaper for root?
<bluesabre> otherwise, you can define the fallback image in lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
<bluesabre> /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
<ochosi> GridCube: not systemwide image, a system-wide accessible wallpaper was meant
<ochosi> you set it as always
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> i see
<ochosi> but it has to be somewhere not in /home
<GridCube> no, the point was that the new release of variety has a setting where you can enable it to autoupdate lightdm from the rotating wallpapers
<GridCube> if they can do it, we cant we
<GridCube> s/we c/why c/
<bluesabre> oh
<ochosi> well if it has access to the conf file then it can "manually" set the wallpaper
<GridCube> but that would require it to do root stuff?
<GridCube> mmm will  have to investigate
<ochosi> yeah, i guess
<ochosi> but prolly worth looking into that
<bluesabre> if variety changes your wallpaper to something installed in /usr then it would change the lightdm wallpaper for your user
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/variety
<ochosi> it does nothing fancy setting the wallpaper in xfce: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~peterlevi/variety/trunk/view/head:/data/scripts/set_wallpaper
<ochosi> i don't see how it would change lightdm's wallpaper by itself
<bluesabre> it would only if it set it to one of the system wp
<rowboatnick> elfy: what apps, besides those who already have autopilot tests, do we need autopilot tests for?
<elfy> rowboatnick: I don't know - I've not looked at it much - I'd say the default apps at least
<rowboatnick> okay, i'd get chopping on mousepad next
<elfy> k 
<rowboatnick> Should I create by own branch for this?
<rowboatnick> might be easier to overview
<elfy> you assigning the bugs if there are any to yourself - that's how I've been keeping track
<elfy> rowboatnick: I do 
<elfy> ls manualtests/ -> greeter  pidgin  thunar
<rowboatnick> oh yeah, we need those
<elfy> then I get the branch and then push when I'm ready 
<rowboatnick> lp is very annoying when you've lost your ssh key :>
<bluesabre> yup
<elfy> indeed
<elfy> bzr is very annoying if you've never done it before 
<GridCube> ochosi: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~peterlevi/variety/trunk/revision/321#variety/Options.py
<GridCube> :)
<rowboatnick> btw, those testcases we need modified, is it okay to just like.. just change what i need? There is no license in them
<GridCube> >The fourth passed parameter ($4) is copy or nocopy. "copy" instructs this script to copy the wallpaper image to some world-readable directory (e.g. ~/Pictures), chmod it so everyone can read it and use the copy for the wallpaper.  This makes the wallpaper image usable by LightDM.
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> in that case it should just work
<bluesabre> we're using the standard lightdm libraries lightdm_get_user_image or something like that
<GridCube> well he changed it later, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~peterlevi/variety/trunk/revision/334
<GridCube> but its basically the same
<elfy> micahg: re discussion doing a2 and a3 - seems that when they finally get around to changing the schedule there will be a1 and a2 then betas ... 
<micahg-work> elfy, hrm, so a3 is being cancelled?
 * micahg-work is a little out of touch these days
 * micahg-work is also wondering if DIF is correct
<elfy> so it seems - I'm working off of second hand information - the schedule is being sorted out 'tonight' - we should have a better idea tomorrow
<elfy> Dif?
<GNima> Hello guys
<GNima> I would like to contribute but I don't know how.. any suggestions?
<pleia2> GNima: http://xubuntu.org/contribute/ is a good place to start
<pleia2> outlines lots of places to get involved, depending on what your skills+interests are :)
<GNima> Im checking this now http://xubuntu.org/contribute/development/
<pleia2> great, feel free to ask any questions you may have about it
<GNima> Thanks 
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-14
<Unit193> So I am supposed to be tracking the libdvdcss installer package (was an action item one or two releases back), and libdvdcss-installer isn't going anywhere, but libdvdcss-pkg popped up and looks pretty good.  The ITP for -okg hasn't moved since January, but there have been commits leading up to end of last month on the package repo.
<Unit193> pleia2: Pretty sure it isn't my place, but just doing a tiny bump on bug 1181379. :)   (Looking at a bunch of bugs, nothing targetted.)
<ubottu> bug 1181379 in Xubuntu Website "Update "In the press" page for 13.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1181379
<Unit193> I can get some shots for https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/+bug/1170890, or we could redirect to http://docs.xubuntu.org/1304/migrating-upgrading.html#upgrading
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1170890 in Xubuntu Website "http://xubuntu.org/upgrading/ is four releases old" [Undecided,New]
<Unit193> pleia2: In case you do get around to it, picked up some links: http://paste.openstack.org/show/bagEbjYe1jQ1JI0YpoxW/
<pleia2> thanks :) ill try to get that sorted this weekend
 * pleia2 eats sushi now
<Unit193> Have fun!
<elfy> Noskcaj: have you been doing anything with autopilot?
<Noskcaj> elfy, no. it confused me so i ran away. i'll tun any tests you need though
<elfy> that's fine - just keeping tabs on what's going on :)
<Noskcaj> to compensate, i made the biggest manual testcase merge yet
<elfy> well - if they are xubuntu ones that is fine as long as the bugs are marked
<Noskcaj> i've marked them as fix released
<elfy> if they aren't xubuntu ones then I think we'd prefer people in the xubuntu qa dept to be doing xubuntu ones :)
<Noskcaj> making two xubuntu ones, plus updating all the hardware testcases
<Noskcaj> a 3000 line change
<elfy> which xubuntu ones? 
<Noskcaj> bug 1187457 and bug 1187462
<ubottu> bug 1187457 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Test Needed: Xfce4 Mouse Settings" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1187457
<ubottu> bug 1187462 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Test Needed: Xfwm4 Workspace Settings" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1187462
<elfy> cool
<rowboatnick> elfy: i will add testcases here http://code.launchpad.net/~dr-madnick/+junk/autopilot-stuff
<elfy> rowboatnick: thanks :)
<lderan> ooo
<elfy> dles
<elfy> release schedule has been updated now - alpha1 is june 27th, alpha2 July 25th 
<Noskcaj> skellat, if your right about that testdrive copyright thing, both howard and i aren't ment to have merged stuff
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-15
<skellat> Noskcaj: Meh.  If the merges are allowed then I guess they aren't worried about having the CLA in place then for testdrive.  Don't worry that I brought it up at all.
<pleia2> finally updated http://xubuntu.org/press/ thanks Unit193 for collecting links :)
 * pleia2 on website bug triage duty now
<Unit193> pleia2: Fantastic!  Sure.
 * Unit193 figured he shouldn't just point out a bug you filed. :P
<pleia2> it's been on my todo list for 4 weeks, too long ;)
<Unit193> I had several other bugs I came up with, and provided info and or poked someone. :P
<pleia2> well, all xubuntu-website bugs are triaged now anyway
<Unit193> Would makeing them all at least BY NC ND, or maybe even BSD be a good idea?  (Attribution, NonCommercial, NoDerivs) 
<Unit193> Re: Desktop of the week.
<pleia2> non-commercial is a non-free license, so no on that
<pleia2> I'm thinking just BY
<pleia2> (but BY even gets tricky if we want to toss it in a flier without attribution cluttering it up)
<Unit193> Well, that gives the owner the most control.
<knome> skellat, i was in the meeting where the dropping of A3 was planned, but... it was a long time ago and meh, i did expect the release schedule to be updated already
<knome> skellat, so it isn't technically "without any input from us", it's just that people updated the official schedule page really late
<skellat> knome: :-)
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: are you around? I believe you are working on a menu editing tool for the user.
<OvenWerks> Let me know what a good time to talk to you is. I am working on a similar project and have found something that may make things work better for you.
<OvenWerks> I would at least like someone elses opinion and am not sure who else to ask.
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-16
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-June/037250.html for what it's worth.
<skellat> Unit193: That list is usually more interesting when subscribed to it than in reading the logs later.  Not much came of that thread that I could tell.
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-09
<ochosi> morning everyone
 * ochosi is back
<ochosi> Unit193: i think that can't hurt
<ochosi> my information is quite some time old, but i have to add that i didn't get a reply to my last email yet (from last week)
<knome> ochosi, since you're the XPL, did you get my message about the project funds?
<ochosi> i read it just now, yeah
<ochosi> not sure what we do with them though, iirc we never decided on anything
<Noskcaj> ochosi, we could just use the money to get xfce devs days off work to finish 4.12
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> i think that won't suffice
<Noskcaj> (just the first thing that came to ming other than merchandise)
<ochosi> but i'm happy to grab my share of it in this case :)
<ochosi> what did i miss in my absence?
<knome> ochosi, all the few coins of which some go to paypal fees ;)
<knome> i think we should use them as we would use the ubuntu community funds.
<knome> i even thought we could donate them to that fund, then request stuff for at least that worth
<knome> but it wouldn't make sense.
<ochosi> yeah, it wouldn't
<knome> otoh, it would get the money out of our hands.
<ochosi> we'd never know whether we'd get it back
<knome> we most probably would
<ochosi> does it burden you that much? :)
<knome> but here's the thing
<knome> we could get the amount we asked for AND that money
<knome> not like it's burning my pockets, more like i'd like us to use it now that we have it
<knome> because we've been talking about fundraising and needing money before
<ochosi> yeah, i mean we have been talking about it in the past, but without a clear result
<ochosi> the bug-bounty mail didn't really create much "buzz" on the ML, so i'd guess that one's off the table for now :)
<ochosi> although i'd like to bring it up again at a meeting i think
<knome> i don't mind it, but i don't feel very strongly about pushing for it
<ochosi> the "promotional material" that we could fund, well, meh, i'm not sure that helps us one bit as a team to make a step forward
<knome> well, not really
<knome> which is why i've proposed stuff like "let's pay for elfy's webcam", which he denied
<ochosi> bluesabre: i think it's time we look into getting you upload-rights again
<knome> (which is ok)
<ochosi> yeah, team member infrastructure can be ok i think
<knome> i'm not proposing we all should go and get hardware because we can pay it from the project funds
<knome> but it makes sense to me to cover some running costs of team members
<knome> i guess including flyer printing.
<knome> there isn't really anything >1 people can enjoy
<knome> "enjoy"..
<knome> i mean, even if we bought a huge banner for conferences
<ochosi> t-shirts for all team members :)
<knome> it'd probably sit in lyz's apartment
<knome> because she visits the most conferences
<knome> the t-shirts stuff is one idea.
<knome> which could be nice, because we could then determine which vendor to use for the "official" t-shirts
<knome> of course that could mean some of us got a bit crappier t-shirts.
<knome> $300/14 is about $21, so one of those couldn't cost more than that if we wanted one for every team member.
<knome> well, lyz has a few, so could be 13 easily
<ochosi> well, for every member that wants one
<knome> well who doesn't want a free t-shirt that has a logo of a project they love/like enough to contribute to?
<knome> (contribute to for free)
<knome> so.. yeah.
<ochosi> there are ppl who don
<ochosi> t like t-shirts with logos of whatsoever
<knome> maybe somebody who doens't wear t-shirts ;)
 * ochosi is not a huge fan for one
<knome> well i'm one of them.
<knome> but i wouldn't mind a t-shirt with a xubuntu logo
<knome> or sth along the lines of that
<knome> well, we could go ahead and ask on the mailing list who would like one.
<knome> then see if it's doable, and start testing vendors one by one.
<knome> while it will take more funds, i think we should start with those people who usually would get very high shipping prices
<knome> to give them that opportuniy
<knome> +t
<knome> that of course depends where the shirts are shiped from, and depend on the vendor
<knome> </monologue>
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i'm looking at >1 things right now as things piled up in my "absence"
<knome> heh
<ochosi> i suggest you add it to the meeting agenda
<knome> gosh i hate some features of mailman
<knome> or actually, the lack of them
<knome> they are minor, but fixing them would make me like it so much more
<knome> like adding <label>s for checkboxes/radiobuttons
<knome> bug 266391
<ubottu> bug 266391 in GNU Mailman "difficult to use radio and check boxes in admin interface" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/266391
<knome> mailing list moderators, do not be afraid to mark that as "affects me"
<knome> it's now the #3 heat bug.
<elfy> wb ochosi 
<ochosi> thanks elfy 
<elfy> knome: if you get 30 seconds ... https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/1327521/+merge/222425
<elfy> or slickymasterWork :)
<elfy> hi GridCube 
<GridCube> hi
<GridCube> how you do
<elfy> awesomely :)
<elfy> everyone's images are still fubar - not running any calls until that's fixed
<slickymasterWork> elfy, seeing it now
<elfy> thanks slickymasterWork 
 * GridCube hugs elfy 
<elfy> :)
<elfy> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Ubiquity/view/All/]
<elfy> Jenkins says NO !!!!
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> elfy: what seems to be the trouble with the images?
<slickymasterWork> elfy: https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/1327521/+merge/222425 <- done
<elfy> ochosi: no idea yet - but it's not new 
<elfy> slickymasterWork: thanks :)
<slickymasterWork> np, it's a pleasure to be useful to such a nice gentleman
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> ok, well let me know if there's something i can do
<elfy> might be useful to ask in -release what's going on - last thing I actually heard was from cjwatson "cjwatson> I can't vouch for whether the images actually *work* with syslinux 6, but I guess we'll find out"
<elfy> ochosi: ^^
<elfy> though I've got balloons in -qa currently
<elfy> who's <balloons> well, I can't quite remember really/ <balloons> kernel issue, then some other things
<Unit193> Logan_: And boom, 0.2.0 release: dget https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfdashboard_0.2.0-1.dsc
<ochosi> Unit193: ppl aren't used to such a rapid release-series with xfce related projects i guess :)
<ochosi> (apart from the xfdesktop release spree leading up to 14.04)
<Unit193> Indeed not.  I was waiting for 0.2.0 since he said it was soon, before I tried to annoy Logan.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, You should add xfdashboard to pkg-xfce
<Noskcaj> Although corsac isn't able to upload much ATM
<Unit193> Please read scrollback either there or here, we asked him if he wanted it, he didn't really.
<Unit193> I put it up on collab-maint in case someone else wants to adopt.
<Unit193> ...Along with another package.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, ok
<Unit193> If he changes his mind, feel free to grab it and make the needed changes.
<Unit193> (Actually, I think we asked about it and discussed it when you weren't here, give me a sec.)
<Unit193> There's the backlog. :P
<Noskcaj> thanks
<Noskcaj> in my experience, corsac will let anything xfce related into pkg-xfce as long as someone maintains it other than him
<ochosi> well that's usually the crucial question, who the hell will maintain software X
<Unit193> As long as it's not svn or bzr, I'm fine with maintaining it for a bit.
<knome> ochosi, tut tut
<Noskcaj> Unit193, svn. But i'd be willing to help too
<ochosi> knome: is it a train?
<Unit193> Yeah, I know svn even less than bzr.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, It's pretty much "always online" vcs
<Noskcaj> It's main issue is the "add" mechanic is pretty dumb
<knome> ochosi, yes, a train telling you to behave ;)
<Unit193> I've also found the power of gbp. >_>
<Unit193> knome: It's the Purdue train!
<knome> Unit193, WWHHHA?
<ochosi> knome: wait, did i hurt your religious feelings by drawing on the christian concept of "hell" for a comparison? :)
<knome> ochosi, woah, that's a bit too thick ;)
<knome> even i wouldn't go that far 
<knome> just think that kind of language isn't needed here
<knome> (do i ever tell you off in #shimmer?)
<knome> hmm
<ochosi> tbh i'm happy you're still the language police here, i wouldn't apply for that job
<ochosi> feeling some post-xpl relaxation already?
<knome> there *is* still a way to trigger the window transparency change
<knome> horizontal scroll
 * Unit193 turns his mouse sideways.
<knome> ahah.
<knome> easy to trigger on a touchpad that does two-finger scrolling
<ochosi> knome: yeah, actually happens to my gf from time to time and it's annoying
<ochosi> if you ask me, there should be at least a hidden option to disable it
<knome> can definitely agree
<knome> the current option to disable it includes disabling the compositor...
<pleia2> forgot to update the wiki page for our meeting, so just updated Processes page to mention that's a chair responsibility
<pleia2> also, as far as money goes, it would be great to print up 14.04 flyers for loco events we do and stuff
<knome> worksforme, as long as i get approval of the team and the final ACK from ochosi, i'll paypal money by request
<pleia2> I think we still have to work on making them line up for printing right though, right?
<knome> yeah.
<knome> i shall look at that when... i'm in a place with a printer and some time to sit down
<pleia2> well, I'll add the flyer thing to the agenda tomorrow so we can approve it and sort out printer later
<knome> goodie
<pleia2> hm, put under discussion?
<knome> yep
<pleia2> ty
<knome> that's the section for all new items
<knome> (and carried on)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-10
<ochosi> hm, sorry, as i was away, i lost track of that a bit, what's the status of the xfpm/lls SRU for trusty?
<knome> i haven't heard any news.
<ochosi> well according to trello it's still "todo"
<knome> i've told bluesabre and friends i'm available if they need people to be poked or sth
<ochosi> although i thought it should be at least "doing"
<knome> i guess. i'd really want it in to be able to stop telling people to read the release notes, and that the fix in the way
<knome> it just sounds silly stupid that we have the fix for the most critical bug in an LTS release and it's not uploaded...
<knome> i can't do any of the uploading or other technical stuff, but i'm still willing to help with the social and bureaucratical/process side
<ochosi> from what i see now, it has been nominated for SRU already by Noskcaj 
<knome> okay
<ochosi> so the fix is already in utopic
<ochosi> no idea who to poke about the SRU now
<knome> yay, bug 266391
<ochosi> i guess one of the usual suspects/uploaders?
<ubottu> bug 266391 in GNU Mailman "difficult to use radio and check boxes in admin interface" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/266391
<knome> now if we only get canonical to upgrade to 2.1.19 ;)
<knome> (when it's out)
<knome> ochosi, i can look at it if you want, but not right now
<ochosi> sure, thanks!
<knome> ochosi, if you want to do $things to make it progress, i'd suggest reading the SRU docs
<ochosi> already marked as sru: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1303736
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1303736 in xfce4-power-manager "[SRU] Black screen after wakeup from suspending by closing the laptop lid" [Undecided,New]
<knome> which is what i will do when i get back and look at it ;)
<ochosi> sounds good
<knome> meh, actually i'll just have a look right now
<knome> well to begin with, the bug doesn't follow the SRU bug template
<knome> also just marking the bug to start with [SRU] does *nothing*
<knome> the sru team does not track that
<knome> sru team is not subscribed
<knome> there is no tag that they follow
<knome> i'd suggest filing a new bug JUST for the SRU
<knome> to get the things right, have the right tags, subscribe the right people/teams and to be able to work on the SRU verification more easily (the original bug is full of comments already)
<ochosi> Noskcaj: ^
<knome> i acknowledge is boring, and that it might feel hard, but it's not really overwhelmingly difficult to follow the procedure
<ochosi> +1[5~
<ochosi> errr
<ochosi> +1
<ochosi>  :)
<ochosi> (this ^ was not another encoding problem ;))
<knome> heh
<bluesabre> ochosi/knome
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1326740
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1326740 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport xfce4-power-manager 1.2.0-3ubuntu6 to trusty" [Undecided,In progress]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-locker-settings/+bug/1326741
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1326741 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport light-locker-settings 1.2.1-0ubuntu2 to trusty" [Undecided,In progress]
<bluesabre> both uploaded to -proposed and nominated for SRU
<bluesabre> Logan_, did you get a chance to upload this to proposed?  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/menulibre/+bug/1323405
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1323405 in menulibre (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport menulibre-2.0.4 to trusty" [Undecided,New]
<knome> bluesabre, cheers
<ochosi> ah good, please keep the status of these things up-to-date in trello
<ochosi> otherwise what good is it
<ochosi> knome: hey, say have you ever heard of scrollback?
<ochosi> could be a nice (modern) replacement for the freenode webirc
<ochosi> http://next.scrollback.io/
<ochosi> as an example for embedding scrollback: http://next.scrollback.io/t/numix/http://xubuntu.org/
<elfy> can it/how does it log to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<ochosi> elfy: it doesn't really take over irc, it just embeds/includes it
<ochosi> so from how i understand it, it's like webirc in that respect
<elfy> so it would still be freenode and the normal channel?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> just a different way of accessing it
<elfy> ok - just checking - that'd be my only issue with it :)
<ochosi> it can also search and group stuff from what i've read, and include certain twitter hashtags
<elfy> what's twitter ... 
 * ochosi has no idea
<ochosi> i only read about it on the tubes
 * elfy neither 
<ochosi> seems to be some new truck or something
<elfy> aaah - ok - works for me then :D
<knome> ochosi, heh, i thought you were ralking about scrollback scrollback :P
<knome> ochosi, no, i haven't heard of the scrollback project
<ochosi> seems that mozilla is also using it in several places
<knome> it looks like really clunky
<knome> that is, not really preserving screen space
<knome> i'd imagine it being horrible to try to get support with that wdiget
<knome> or even the "fullscreen" mode!
<pleia2> o/
<pleia2> meeting time, friends
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun 10 20:01:12 2014 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<pleia2> who all is here for our Xubuntu team meeting? :)
<elfy> o/ ish
<Noskcaj> o/
<pleia2> alright, the rest can trickle in then
<pleia2> #topic Open action items
<pleia2> knome (and everyone else without accounts yet) - did you sign up for trello?
<pleia2> if so, let elfy know your name there so he can add you to the boards we want to add you to
<pleia2> that was the only open action item outstanding, so we'll let it go moving forward and bug people outside of meetings if they still need to sign up :)
<elfy> pleia2: it's knome only I think - skellat and micah are elsewhere afaik
<pleia2> ok, thanks
<pleia2> #topic Team updates
 * elfy can do that really quickly this week
<pleia2> thanks
<pleia2> #info marketing flyer completion is still pending, content is done, we just need to line up sides for printing
<elfy> #info Image has been uninstallable up until today - nothing has been done, no testing calls went out - normal service appears to have resumed
<pleia2> anything else? Noskcaj or Unit193?
<Unit193> Not that I can think of.
<Noskcaj> pleia2, I've got nothing
<pleia2> alrighty
<pleia2> #topic Discussion
<pleia2> #subtopic Proposal: Use some team money for printing up flyers
<pleia2> knome and ochosi were talking a bit about the money that is being held for the team (a couple hundred dollars or so): http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/09/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t08:03
<pleia2> a few ideas came up for marketing, one was printing flyers to give out at conferences, another was printing t-shirts to team members to show appreciation for participation in the project (and yay xubuntu)
<pleia2> since the flyers are almost done and I attend a lot of conferences, I was hoping to get some feedback on a proposal to print some xubuntu flyers
<pleia2> also worthy of note: we spent $40 on the StartUbuntu ones that went down well at SCaLE earlier this year
<elfy> at this point I'd pretty much +1 anything to stop us having to talk about it 
<pleia2> alright then, any strong opposition?
<doubleplusgood> T-Shirts would be nice
<lderan> aye to t-shirts
<elfy> pleia2: I'd suggest mailing listing it for TEAM 
<pleia2> the proposal as discussed was t-shirts given to the folks on this team: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/09/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t08:03
<pleia2> err
<elfy> but I'd +1 t-shirts/more flyers
<pleia2> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team/+members#active
<pleia2> making them more generally available for sale is harder
<Noskcaj> +1 to any marketing stuff
<pleia2> (we'd have to go to a vendor that is reasonably priced and ships internationally, we've gone around this topic a few times)
<pleia2> alright, well people seem happy with marketing stuff in general then, so that's mostly what I wanted from this topic
<pleia2> #subtopic Any other business
<pleia2> anyone else have anything they want to bring up?
<elfy> not from me 
<elfy> oh yea
<elfy> you sort of alluded to it earlier - I'd concur - is there any point at all in weekly meetings at the moment?
<elfy> I'd say not
<pleia2> agreed
<doubleplusgood> agreed
<pleia2> next meeting in 2 weeks then?
<pleia2> elfy: you're our lucky chair next time!
<pleia2> #action elfy to schedule and announce next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to schedule and announce next meeting
<lderan> sounds good to me
<elfy> yep - will do that some point soon - somewhen in wk26
<pleia2> ok, thanks everyone
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun 10 20:16:43 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-06-10-20.01.moin.txt
<elfy> thanks pleia2 :)
<pleia2> sure thing :)
<elfy> almost as quick as mine's going to be :p
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> I will probably be off in some exotic location (or on a plane) during the next meeting
 * elfy realises he's on holiday that week - it will be some random time I think
<lderan> pleia2, i hope your plane has better inflight entertainment then what i had to endure. 10 hours with the only movie on offer was despicable me 2 on a loop 
<pleia2> lderan: thanks, I'm flying lufthansa and they tend to have decent selection
<elfy> but in german?
<pleia2> haha
<pleia2> not all of them :)
<pleia2> ta da! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2014-06-10
<elfy> awesome 
<Unit193> Well, short meeting indeed.
 * elfy reported 2 hexchat bugs the other day Unit193 
<elfy> both pita :(
<knome> elfy, i'm now registered to trello via my google account at pasi @ shimmerproject.org
<elfy> knome: added 
 * Unit193 symlinks pasi to knome.
<knome> ta
<ochosi> sorry i returned too late :/
<ochosi> thanks for holding the meeting pleia2 
<pleia2> sure thing
<ochosi> problem is that i'm abroad for another 3 weeks, so the farewell occasions have already started...
<elfy> ochosi: you cool with us going twice a month for the moment?
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, makes sense. i think it's ok that this is a more quiet cycle
<ochosi> we have a bit to digest from last cycle
<elfy> quiet?
<elfy> moribund almost :p
<ochosi> well i'm heavily invested upstream in xfce
<elfy> but yea - last cycle was rather busy :)
<ochosi> so is bluesabre 
<ochosi> and then there is the general quietness of ubuntu folks after LTS
<ochosi> plus the new focus on phone
<elfy> yep - not complaining :)
<ochosi> and knome dropping all the balls he learned to juggle during the last few years on me in a week or so..
<ochosi> :)
 * ochosi is a padavan and much to learn he has
<elfy> image installs now by the way 
<ochosi> sweet
<elfy> still not right - but does install
<ochosi> well, that's something to hold on to i guess
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> what troubles are we still in?
<elfy> no choice at beginning for language, no choice to try or install - basically - it boots to the desktop
<elfy> but I suspect that will be *buntu - not just us 
<ochosi> yeah, sounds more general
<elfy> not had time to double check on that 
<ochosi> i heard gtk3.12 has landed meanwhile
<ochosi> do you know anything about upower0.99?
<elfy> once I am sure it's not just us we can kinda forget that issue
<elfy> nothing
 * ochosi checks trello
<Noskcaj> upower 0.99 is waiting on xfce-session, some gnome stuff, and the removal of wmbattery
<ochosi> but is it in utopic already?
<ochosi> or is it up to us to decide which version we wanna ship?
<elfy> ii  upower         0.9.23-2ubun
 * ochosi wishes he were Unit193 with his magic ubottu skills pulling up package versions per release
<Noskcaj> ochosi, we'll be shipping 0.99, but its not in utopic yet
<Unit193> !info upower utopic-proposed
<ubottu> Package upower does not exist in utopic-proposed
<Noskcaj> it's in my PPA and debian experimental
<Unit193> Heh, guessed it was in proposed...
<Noskcaj> and gtk3.12 is currently FTBFS exerywhere
<ochosi> ftbfs?
<ochosi> Unit193: thanks for trying though ;)
<elfy> ochosi: it is at least Ubuntu as well as us 
<ochosi> humm right
<Unit193> ochosi: It'd not be in normal repos since things aren't ready for it.  In development releases, things get stacked in proposed until the migration is finished,
<ochosi> well i talked with satya today about getting our themes in shape for 3.12
<ochosi> there are basically two options
<Unit193> Numix++
<ochosi> 1) rewrite them completely using sass (a css pre-processor)
<ochosi> 2) port them so they work
<ochosi> it seems that adwaita is being ported to 1), so this might be the more sustainable option
<ochosi> but also *lots_of_work*
<ochosi> so yeah, if you know any themers or ppl who wanna contribute to artwork, send them my way
<ali1234> any reason why sass?
<ochosi> we'd mostly follow adwaita because that means you can follow the development of gtk3 more easily
<ochosi> and since they're considering to port to sass...
<ochosi> (considering = there is already a branch)
<Noskcaj> ochosi, since you do upstream stuff, could you see what's needed for xfce-session to do the upower transition (there are 4 different patches in the bugzilla)
<ali1234> i can rewrite css as sass if that is helpful
<ochosi> Noskcaj: ok, i'll discuss it with eric
<Noskcaj> awesome
<Noskcaj> And then we'll be all ready for upower
<ochosi> ali1234: i think it would be useful
<ali1234> how exactly does porting them to sass make them work in 3.12 tho?
<ali1234> i mean in the end, won't you just get the same css?
<ochosi> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-themes-standard/tree/themes/Adwaita?h=wip/sass
<ochosi> you will, the main advantage is staying in sync with adwaita
<ali1234> why "in sync"
<ali1234> i know a lot about css but nothing at all about how gtk themes work
<Noskcaj> ochosi, knome: In response to the SRU question yesterday, I made one bug, no realising bluesabre had already done it, so i've just left my SRU
<Noskcaj> *not
<ochosi> ali1234: well gtk3 themes don't work very differently from how you'd expect css to work
<ochosi> you have a more limited set of options in comparison to the web
<ochosi> but generally you style widget classes
<ochosi> or named widgets
<ali1234> yeah i get that much
<ochosi> in gtk2 things are really different, but i guess it's totally not worth it to explain that to anyone anymore
<ali1234> but why do you need to be "in sync" with adwaita?
<ochosi> because gtk3-development = gnome3 development and adwaita = gnome3 default theme
<ali1234> so you want to be in sync with gtk3
<ochosi> ofc
<ali1234> what does that have to do with adeaita?
<ochosi> it's the only official gtk3 theme in a way
<ali1234> do you just want to @import all of adwaita using sass, and then tweak it?
<ochosi> because adwaita uses its own gtk3 engine, and we use the default engine
<ali1234> so how does keeping shimmer themes "in sync" with adwaita help?
<ali1234> and what exactly does it mean for them to be in sync?
<Unit193> GTK3 changes so often that it gets hard to follow, so you just follow Adwaita?
<ochosi> yeah, basically that ^
<ali1234> can you make a gtk engine that doesn't support css?
<ochosi> you mean a gtk3 engine?
<ali1234> yes, one where the appearence is just hard coded
<ochosi> i guess you could
<ochosi> under the hood, gtk3 is still drawn with cairo afaik, so ofc you can hardcode everything
<ali1234> yeah, that would have no benefit if you still used cairo
<ali1234> you'd just be hardcoding the css, no performance increase there
<ochosi> but that's the beauty of gtk3 that you can use the common css syntax
<ochosi> it really makes things a lot more flexible than with gtk2
<Unit193> ochosi: Can you make it to the next meeting?
<ochosi> Unit193: i'll try my best, but it hasn't been scheduled yet, so...
<ali1234> i would prefer a desktop that has no themes but runs fast
<Unit193> ochosi: Wondering as I'd like $us to review the seed change proposals, so we can get any in and upload, and move on with the -core testing.
<elfy> ochosi: I should be about all day during that week - so if a particular time/day suits you - let me know :)
<elfy> night 
<Unit193> elfy: Good night.
<ochosi> crap, elfy is *fast*
<ochosi> ali1234: well, "no themes"... all toolkits support themes, you can simply try to use either no engine or a very slim one
<ali1234> they didn't used to
<ali1234> i thinking windows 3.1 here
<ochosi> well even gtk1 did support some theming options
<ochosi> heh
<ali1234> you can change some constants like colours
<ali1234> that's it
<ochosi> that's like installing solely gtk2 but no engines or themes
<ochosi> it's really faster
<ochosi> and you can only change colors mostly
<ali1234> so can you do that on gtk3 by making an engine?
<ali1234> or are you forced to use cairo?
<ochosi> no, well, i dunno how gtk2 itself did draw the widgets
<ochosi> i never looked into the source of that
<ochosi> but gtk3 itself and the various engines draw the widgets with cairo
<ali1234> well, it had engines, but they were different
<ochosi> the syntax for customizing them was different
<ochosi> the engines themselves, not so sure
<ochosi> meanwhile, sure. but in the beginning, gtk3 was mostly another iteration of gtk2 from what i understood
<ali1234> all the engines had to be rewritten, i know that
<ochosi> yeah, to use more cairo
<ali1234> and most of them weren't
<ali1234> or it took ages
<ochosi> and less other stuff
<ochosi> they werent rewritten because the default engine supplied most of the options of existing gtk2 themes
<ochosi> so the idea was to get rid of engines
<ochosi> but gnome3 itself is actually destroying that idea by keeping adwaita
<ochosi> ubuntu wanted to get rid of unity for ages
<ochosi> cimi abandoned it at least 4 cycles ago
<ochosi> which is why we switched to the default engine (meh, lots of work)
<ochosi> anyway, engines only draw on top of the default engine, i don't know of any tests that prove that any engine is faster than the default
<ali1234> well, not having to parse a load of css would certainly make it faster
<ochosi> it's not that much css
<ali1234> also not drawing everything using vector graphics and then converting it to bitmaps
<ochosi> and gnome3 isn't parsing css, they have a kinda compiled format
<ali1234> the amount of css doesn't matter, it's the existence of a css engine that makes it slow
<ali1234> every time you draw something you have to look up if there is a rule to affect the way it is drawn
<ali1234> simply not doing that would be a performance increase
<ochosi> we could also use that compiled format and save some energy with it, but it makes maintenance a little harder (not much though)
<ali1234> nah, go with sass
<ochosi> i think there are more efficient ways to improve performance
<ali1234> it makes css much less annoying
<knome> tbh css is okay if you know how to use it
<ali1234> css is okay except for the fact it doesn't have constants or nested selectors
<ochosi> e.g. use a web browser that doesn't eat your cpu or ram or gpu and don't watch too many clips in flash format
<ali1234> which is why sass/less exist
<knome> what do you mean by nested selectors?
<knome> having no constants actually makes you write better and less redundant css..
<knome> well at least how i see it.
<ochosi> i think better css isn't necessarily what ali1234 is aiming at
<knome> i understand
<ochosi> it's more: hardcoded visuals and less queries for "how should it look"
<ochosi> but i'm not even sure that's possible with gtk3
<ali1234> two different things
<ochosi> or, if it is, if there's any gain
<ali1234> having no constants means you have to find and replace s/#eef/#dde/g on all your css every time you change a colour
<knome> ali1234, you missed my point.
<knome> why would you want to specify that in a million places?
<ali1234> because you might use that colour on more than one element
<ali1234> and you want to change them all because they are supposed to match
<knome> yeah, so: p, h1, h2 ...
<knome> { color: red; }
<knome> ta-dah!
<ali1234> yeah what if you don't want all p to be red
<knome> well, my point is this
<knome> you should always do good generic rules
<knome> and overwrite those as little as possible
<knome> so yeah, just do p.something { color: green; } then
<knome> and h2.somethingelse
<knome> but if you need to overwrite loads of stuff, maybe you should *think again* if that's really what the design is asking for
<ali1234> then you end up with stuff like p.something, p.somethingelse, p.anotherthing > img, body > p.blah, ... and it just goes on forever
<ali1234> that's where nested selectors come in
<knome> i don't.
<knome> just *don't do that*
<ali1234> there is no way to avoid it
<knome> if you have a set of things scattered all over the place that need similar styling but are something completely different from each other, maybe you should really add a class to reuse for those.
<ali1234> this is especially true when you're trying to theme something like wordpress, where you have almost no control over what classes are in the markup
<knome> .alis_red_links
<knome> with premade themes, yeah...
<knome> but if the theme is half-good, you don't end up with loads and loads of overwrites
<ali1234> no, the markup is supposed to be semantic
<ali1234> if you have stuff like <p class="red"> then you are doing it wrong
<knome> unless you want very specific micro-control over things, in which case you need your own theme
<knome> well, obviously that was a bad example
<knome> the class name should be highlight or something
<ali1234> even if you write your own theme, you still can't control stuff like the classes used on lists, menus, links, etc
<knome> you can.
<knome> though the classes used on menus are good enough as they are
<ali1234> yeah, because they are semantic
<knome> but you know, nested selectors wouldn't help in your case
<knome> which is:
<knome>  p.something, p.somethingelse, 
<knome>           p.anotherthing > img, body > p.blah, ...
<knome> i can agree there are some real life use cases where something like nested selectors would be useful, but those situations are scarse..
<ali1234> they improve readability of the code everywhere
<knome> that's debatable.
<knome> and i personally think that if you need to heavily use them, they are starting to create more mess
<knome> and then you also are doing most probably something wrong
<ali1234> here is some actual less code: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7625790/
<ali1234> there is no way to rewrite this in pure css and have it shorter and with less duplication
<knome> i know less.
<knome> i'm not saying the css frameworks are useless
<ochosi> knome: i think we could move the 14.04.1 stuff to a new board
<ochosi> then things would be a bit more vertical
<knome> that's not the issue... :)
<knome> i'll just stylish it.
<Unit193> ochosi: Thought of that idea before as well.
<ochosi> knome: let's get a solution that benefits all though...
<knome> ochosi, i can share ;)
<knome> and you can drop the 14.04.1 stuff.
<ochosi> well hopefully we can drop it soon
<Unit193> knome already credited all the translators. :D
<ochosi> right now, i don't see much benefit in it sitting there
<knome> not really...
<slickymaster> great news Unit193 
<slickymaster> Unit193: can I then mark that as done?
<Unit193> slickymaster: Sorry, sarcasm.
<Unit193> Though it is almost done, IIRC.
<slickymaster> :(
<bluesabre> hey folks
<slickymaster> hey bluesabre 
<ochosi> ahoj bluesabre 
<bluesabre> how are things?
<ochosi> good, about to go to bed
<slickymaster> rolling over here bluesabre, how about yourself?
<bluesabre> pretty good
<bluesabre> trying to keep up with everything
<slickymaster> which isn't always easy :)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-11
<ochosi> (late) morning everyone
<Noskcaj> evening ochosi 
<ochosi> ok folks, so we have an extras PPA that we can populate with apps that aren't in any repo yet: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/extras
<ochosi> Unit193, Noskcaj, bluesabre ^
 * Unit193 isn't in dev.
<ochosi> Unit193: let's work on that
<ochosi> meanwhile you can still prep packages that one of us can then push there
<Unit193> Meh.  Anywho, copy anything from /xfce you like, though might want to tell me what so I can ping if/when I update it.
<knome> +1 for Unit193 in -dev
<Unit193> (I'm not actually a dev) Meh, I'm find with things being under review, really.
<ochosi> yeah, well the whole asking when something's updated is the reason why i think you should be able to do it yourself
<Unit193> ochosi: Want thunar-dropbox-plugin in there?
<Noskcaj> ochosi, i too am not in dev.
<Noskcaj> I'll add the embed plugin when i get the chance, since corsac never uploaded it
<Noskcaj> debian xfpm now "replace consolekit recommends by libpam-systemd, and add systemd-shim | system-sysv as well in order to not force systemd as init to users for now."
<Noskcaj> Is that a change we don't want? I've not been following systemd
<Unit193> Noskcaj: We already have that, not an issue.
<Noskcaj> ok. I'll merge as soon as the branch is ready
<Unit193> xfce4-session, lightdm, ligghtdm-gtk-greeter and perhaps others got the same thing.
<Noskcaj> yep
<brainwash> ochosi: any idea how to tell/encourage people to also file upstream reports? flooding the Xfce tracker won't help in most cases, but having only lp reports doesn't help either
<knome> brainwash, while it's boring and repetitive, one way is to comment on the LP bugs..
<knome> brainwash, the other option is to file relevant bugs on the xfce bugzilla yourself
<brainwash> could someone from -team do that?
<knome> why would somebody in the -team do that?
<brainwash> good question
<knome> wouldn't it be better if somebody else did it rather than waste the time of people who are already committed to the project?
<brainwash> it would be
<brainwash> however, bug tracking is not a waste of time
<knome> well, no
<knome> but i don't want, say, bluesabre do bug tracking instead of actually fixing bugs
<knome> time comes in finite amounts
<ali1234> there is a template comment for "please file an upstream bug"
<ali1234> i often send bug reports upstream
<ali1234> because it's quicker than trying to explain how to use bugzilla
<ali1234> brainwash: why did you subscribe me to that flash bug today?
<ali1234> because you knew i had a workaround for it?
<ali1234> or because of some weirdness on lp?
<brainwash> so you could add a nice comment which explains why the bug is happening :)
<ali1234> there's no nice explanation for it unfortunately... it happens because flash detects when focus changes and unmaximizes itself. so it is "by design"
<ali1234> the workaround is to patch xlib so it drops those events instead of sending them to the window
<ali1234> (which i do at runtime)
<brainwash> I know about the workaround
<brainwash> so there is no chance to get it fixed officially (in ubuntu)?
<ali1234> none at all
<ali1234> unless abode fixes it, which they definitely won't
<ali1234> they didn't even fix it when all videos were playing with reversed chroma (aka the smurf bug)
<brainwash> I see
<brainwash> what was the deal with the new present extension?
<brainwash> didn't you want to utilize it?
<brainwash> vsync stuff
<ali1234> yeah... no support from the video drivers yet
<ali1234> it's really easy to just patch it in
<ali1234> but nobody can use it
<ali1234> it directly replaces XRender
<brainwash> right, 14.10 won't support it yet I guess
<ali1234> maybe if you use intel or nouveau
<brainwash> or maybe
<brainwash> yeah
<ali1234> just look for DRI3 and Present extensions
<ali1234> you'll probably have them
<ali1234> but they won't actually fix tearing unless the video driver implements them properly, which they don't
<ali1234> currently they just fake it by passing it throgh to XRender
<brainwash> intel supports them now
<ali1234> intel already has tear-free with DRM
<brainwash> yes, and it has been improved a lot
<brainwash> tearfree is even better than xr_glx_hybird (compton)
<ali1234> i don't want to add yet another rendering backend and config option
<ali1234> yes, it should be
<ali1234> and present should be even better
<brainwash> an it is finally :)
<brainwash> even better o.o
<ali1234> present can go one stage further and do proper double buffering
<ali1234> where the app actually knows which buffer is being displayed
<ali1234> that's a bit more complex to implement though
<brainwash> sounds promising
<ali1234> but the thing is, i want to wait until present is widely supported, and then just drop all the other hacks
<ali1234> and by widely supported i mean nvidia binary driver supports it
<brainwash> this will take some time, but a tear free experience ootb is really needed
<brainwash> especially since it's already 2014
<ali1234> go to https://devtalk.nvidia.com and ask them to support present
<ochosi> funny that there doesnt seem to be a related discussion yet in that forum
<ali1234> that's because it is mostly users who know nothing. tinkerers, if you will
<ali1234> every other thread is complaining about tearing though
<ochosi> mmm
<ochosi> tearing is really one of the basic aspects where linux limps behind other OSs
<ali1234> only if you use the proprietary drivers
<ali1234> the actual place where linux lags behind is in decent 3d acceleration
<ali1234> only intel has quality drivers, and their hardware is rubbish
<ochosi> i dunno, nouveau didn't seem to improve tearing issues at all here
<ochosi> all it did was push my fan to 100%
<ochosi> (constantly)
<ali1234> nouveau has present now
<ochosi> oh, it does?
<ochosi> not bad, if that worked, i guess i'd switch
<ali1234> all software is bad, all computers suck....
<ali1234> anything more complex than 8 bit microcontrollers is basically guaranteed to not work properly
<ochosi> makes you wonder why we ever managed to put a man on the moon or a rover on mars though
<ochosi> can't be *that* bad
<ali1234> that was done with 8 bit computers
<ali1234> the question is why can't we do it today?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-12
<ochosi> morning everyone
<elfy> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> Unit193: where are your xubuntu-related packages that would go into the extras repo again?
<elfy> ochosi: I'm not working the week after next, need to set the meeting up - but I can set it for when you're about if you want
<ochosi> elfy: thanks, that'd be nice
<ochosi> i have to announce in advance that the next two weeks might be a bit more chaotic for me, because i'm in my transition back home
<elfy> ochosi: yep 
<ochosi> so i have a few last days here in venice and i'll also be travelling a bit (for fun, this time)
<ochosi> after that, things should be mostly stable throughout the summer
<elfy> let me know if there's a best time and I'll set it for then - as long as I've set it by early next week
<elfy> heh
<ochosi> for next week, i think mon-tue would be the best days
<ochosi> time-wise, hrm, i guess the meeting during the day worked best for me
<ochosi> we could also ask bluesabre if that'd work for him again
<ochosi> (that was 10utc iirc)
<elfy> lol
<elfy> I see you read and digested the meeting logs - no meeting next week - no meeting till week of 23rd June :)
<ochosi> oh right, i forgot, so the week after that...
<elfy> ok - so ~10:00UTC?
<ochosi> that makes it harder to say what day would be good though
<elfy> :) - well we can leave setting it for a few days if that helps
<Unit193> ochosi: Mostly in /xfce, but thunar is in /test.
<ochosi> elfy: i guess i won't be able to realistically say anything until monday
<ochosi> Unit193: thunar? you mean the dropbox plugin?
<Unit193> Yep.
<ochosi> k, any pkgs you wouldn't consider ready for the extras repo?
<elfy> ochosi: ok - well I'll set it then :)
<elfy> bbl
<ochosi> ok, thanks elfy 
<Unit193> Well xfwm is a git snapshot, sooo.
<Unit193> And just pull thunar-dropbox-plugin from the other.
<ochosi> what's up with appfinder?
<ochosi> ah, we don't have that release yet in 14.04
<Unit193> Right, just a backport.
<Unit193> Picked it directly from experimental, so can ignore it.
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> hrm, the dropbox plugin is still building
<ochosi> xfdashboard is copied over though
<Unit193> I was going to hit up utopic with that when things were slightly further along, but meh.
<Unit193> Had it since quantal. >_>
<ochosi> fwiw, just dropped all pkgs for lucid from our dev-PPA
<ochosi> this one: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ppa
<ochosi> i apologize in advance to all users of lucid :p
<Unit193> Hah.
<Unit193> Thanks.
<Unit193> ochosi: Have any other requests?
<ochosi> hmm, skippy-xd is already in the repos?
<ochosi> if not, that'd be a request
<Noskcaj> Unit193, Could you add the embed plugin (from debian svn) too please
<Unit193> I can't add anything. :P
<Unit193> What's it do?
<Unit193> Noskcaj: PPA it and request someone copy it over.
<Noskcaj> "Plugin for embedding arbitrary app windows into the Xfce panel"
<ochosi> it's quite a funny and ridiculous plugin at the same time
<ochosi> iirc the author embedded a messenger app in the panel (that was the main usecase)
<ochosi> if anybody has more creative ideas than this ^ ...
<Unit193> So, we need it for utopic?
<Noskcaj> Unit193, nope, just saying it should be in the ppa in case someone finds a use for it
<Noskcaj> It's  in ppa:noskcaj/build now
<ochosi> Noskcaj: ok, feel free to ping me when it's ready and tested
<Noskcaj> ready=yes, tested=no
<ochosi> if (tested == yes) { ping ochosi; } else { return; }
<Noskcaj> k
<knome> yeah, that PPA shouldn't be for experimental stuff
<Unit193> So, don't put xfce4-appfinder in it.
<knome> when does something stop being experimental?
<knome> when enough people have tested it...
<knome> so just make sure it's tested and we can take it in
<slickymasterWork> knome: do you have a few minutes to spare?
<Unit193> knome: So, both mine don't count?
<Unit193> Meh, just dropbox doesn't, which is what I use.
<slickymasterWork> knome: I've just noticed that something got messed up with xubuntu.ent 
<slickymasterWork> at least the sÂ«Settings Manager icon isn't being properly load in the documentation 
<knome> slickymasterWork, hmm, right
<brainwash> should we ask why the patched xfpm and lls packages are not available in -proposed yet? or just wait some more days?
<slickymasterWork> lol knome, meaning...?
<knome> meaning "i guess i should look at it"
<slickymasterWork> another thing I wanted to talk to you about is bug 1299743
<ubottu> bug 1299743 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "No options: "Show printers shared by other systems"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1299743
<slickymasterWork> I'm inclined to mark it as invalid. What is your opinion?
<knome> yeah, that's a good question
<ochosi> bbabl
<bluesabre> 10utc works best for me
<ochosi> elfy: ^ ok, then let's head for 10utc and fix the day/date on monday?
<knome> slickymasterWork, sorry, i must have missed your last question before....
<knome> slickymasterWork, to be honest, i don't really know if it's invalid
<knome> slickymasterWork, if we insist there is a specific option to enable/disable and it doesn't exist, it's a bug in our documentation
<knome> slickymasterWork, maybe we could change it to something more general. at least we should see how xubuntu machines would have to enable that stuff and document that
<ochosi> bluesabre, ali1234, and whoever else it might concern: talked to larsu recently about their plans for indicators
<slickymasterWork> knome, lost connectivity 
<ochosi> bluesabre, ali1234: in the short run (14.10) there are no big changes ahead â although honestly, with the indicator-stack you can never know...
<bluesabre> yeah, something will likely break
<ochosi> as soon as unity8 is around, it's questionable whether we can still use indicators easily, cause then they will change significantly
<ochosi> at least that was larsu's projection
<slickymasterWork> thing is that the paragraph in question addresses other Linux/Ubuntu based systems
<slickymasterWork> does xubuntu fall in that condition? 
<knome> slickymasterWork, maybe we should "assume" the other systems are xubuntu, and write instructions for that
<bluesabre> we'll keep an eye on them, maybe team up with elementary folks for co-maintainership if we're the last people interested in gtk
<knome> and add "ymmv" for other systems
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i guess going for gnome3's system doesn't make much sense..
<slickymasterWork> lost you there knome, what's ymmv?
<knome> slickymasterWork, "your mileage may vary"
<bluesabre> yeah, gnome3 doesn't support indicators (I think)
<knome> slickymasterWork, basically implying that "we don't really know what kind of switch/option you have, but here's how you do it in xubuntu:"
<ochosi> bluesabre: well they have some different (js based?) plugin/extension system
<slickymasterWork> lol, thought you were referring to some sort of a package
<knome> hehe, no
<bluesabre> yeah, js from what I can tell
<ochosi> bluesabre: btw, as i'm not able to test it anymore, how's the display dialog working now?
<slickymasterWork> ok, I'll rewrite it
<knome> slickymasterWork, cheers
<knome> slickymasterWork, can you test what the xubuntu user would need to do to enable that? or is it enabled automatically?
<slickymasterWork> I'll have to test it here knome 
<knome> mhm
<knome> i'm actually thinking it might require some package to be installed, or then not
<knome> i have no clue...
<knome> i still don't have any resident printers ;)
<slickymasterWork> I can take advantage of the fact that here I have a network available to test it
<knome> yep
<knome> that's cool
<slickymasterWork> thanks for the brainstorming knome ;)
<knome> np
<slickymasterWork> told you I would be poking you :P
<knome> but that's okay ;)
<davmor2> slickymaster: I wouldn't you don't know where knome has been ;)
<knome> true...
<slickymasterWork> I think I'm safe davmor2, I have a biiiiiiiiiiiiig poking stick
<knome> slickymasterWork, oh yeah the entity file is either messed up or it isn't loaded corretly
<slickymasterWork> yes, at first I thought it might be caused by some specific configuration of my utopic box
<knome> tbe, it's broken for languages only
<knome> did you check the main docs in english?
<slickymasterWork> but I branch them and build it locally and the issue remains
<slickymasterWork> yes
<knome> and did it break?
<slickymasterWork> yes
<knome> weird
<knome> because it's fine here
<slickymasterWork> not here
<knome> also Unit193 has reported some breakings with the latest branches
<knome> but only now and then, nothing he can reproduce
<slickymasterWork> but there's something going wrong anyway
<knome> yep
<slickymasterWork> I pinged Unit193, but most probably he finally went to sleep :)
<knome> i think the problem is that the translation is happening in a wrong directory
<slickymasterWork> the script is running incorrectly? is that what you mean?
<knome> not exactly
<knome> the script is running correctly
<knome> but the xml files reference to the .ent file with a relative path, eg. ../libs/xubuntu.ent
<knome> and i believe the script is in a wrong directory to get that right
<slickymasterWork> ah, I see what you mean
<knome> or something else is in the wrong place
<knome> but i believe it's in the translation process
<knome> because i don't experience the issue with the default docs
<slickymasterWork> by default you mean the ones in english?
<knome> yep
<slickymasterWork> I had experience the same issue with those
<slickymasterWork> s/had/have
<knome> i don't, so i'm unable to debug that
<knome> are you absolutely sure you have the latest branch revision?
<slickymasterWork> branch it at 10:00 AM
<slickymasterWork> knome: the branch is revision 198
<slickymasterWork> it's the last one
<knome> yep
<knome> for some reason, xml2po seems to strip the line '%xubuntu-ent' off, which makes the entities not available
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, re bug 1299743, that option apparently disappeared sometime between Precise and Saucy
<ubottu> bug 1299743 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "No options: "Show printers shared by other systems"" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1299743
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/print-server-settings-comparison.php
<jjfrv8> so that means I missed it at least the last two cycles :(
<knome> that happens... :)
<slickymasterWork> knome, jjfrv8, so basically the issue relates to changes in the system-config-printer
<slickymasterWork> package
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, yes, I think so. That setting appears to be the default now. I tested it and it does seem to work that way.
<slickymasterWork> ok, I'm going to test it now, to see how it's now achievable
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, I drafted a wording change as a suggestion: https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8/+junk/print-server-settings
<slickymasterWork> jjfrv8, seeing your commit
<slickymasterWork> lol
<slickymasterWork> do you want me to assign to bug to you, jjfrv8?
<slickymasterWork> s/to/the
<jjfrv8> that's okay with me. Just let me know if you think the change is good or if you'd rather do it another way.
<jjfrv8> bbiab
<GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ristretto/+bug/1314829
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1314829 in ristretto (Ubuntu) ""Set as Wallpaper" doesn't work" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<slickymasterWork> damn connection
<slickymasterWork> jjfrv8, your rewording works for me
<slickymasterWork> do you want me to merge or will you do it yourself?
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, I'll let you do the merge. I'd probably screw it up.
<slickymasterWork> lol jjfrv8 
<slickymasterWork> it will be my first one, but that's one of the reasons for wanting to do it
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, should I do an MP or can you do it from junk?
<slickymasterWork> good question, jjfrv8. Probably it would be better if you do a proper MP
<jjfrv8> ok. I haven't verified that it looks the same in Utopic yet. Probly need to do that.  And then do I need to pull separate versions from T and U?
<slickymasterWork> probably not
<slickymasterWork> I'm running utopic and so far the package in question is exactly the same
<jjfrv8> ah, good.
<slickymasterWork> and if by any chances it gets changed we can always reproduce that change
<jjfrv8> yeah, it's still early for that.
<slickymasterWork> yes
<slickymasterWork> I'll just be able to merge later this evening though
<slickymasterWork> over here at work I'm bind to port 80, communicating to the exterior 
<jjfrv8> ok, MP into Trusty is there for you.
<ochosi> jjfrv8, slickymaster: btw, since both of you know xubuntu from a very specific viewpoint, i'd be interested to hear where you think we should improve htings
<ochosi> things
<ochosi> this is more a general remark though, so always feel free to speak up if you feel you're documenting a silly procedure that users have to undergo to achieve goal X â at least if it's something that is under our control somehow
<elfy> ochosi: 10UTC is fine with me - I'll wait for you to tell me which day I'm choosing :D
<Unit193> knome: Well, to be more precise, it happens every time on real boxes, but in chroots it's fine.
<knome> aha
<knome> Unit193, entities aren't loaded correctly for the docs
<Unit193> knome: Are you having the same problem?
<slickymaster> that's it Unit193 
<slickymaster> Unit193: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t09:20
<slickymaster> and http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t11:17
<Unit193> I've known translations had a problem, but they validate in a chroot fine, just not on any hardware.
<knome> Unit193, yeah, but not with the english version, only translations
<Unit193> Exactly, only translations.
<knome> Unit193, if you look at the translation xml files, they lack the %xubuntu-ent; lines
<slickymaster> the exception is that I got it also with the english version
<knome> so is it the xml2po process that removes that?
<knome> and why/how didn't that happen before?
<Unit193> <!ENTITY % xubuntu-ent SYSTEM "../libs/xubuntu.ent">
<knome> yes
<knome> but the following line
<knome> see the main xml files
<slickymaster> knome, going to need your assistance on something
<knome> slickymaster, you should know you can ask in 5 minutes ;9
<knome> well 4
<knome> + 1-4
<Unit193> gnome-doc-utils shouldn't be the problem at least, hasn't changed in a while.
<slickymaster> regarding bug 1299743, jjfrv8 and I got sorted out early this afternoon and jjfrv8 already made a MP
<ubottu> bug 1299743 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "No options: "Show printers shared by other systems"" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1299743
<knome> slickymaster, noticed
<slickymaster> thing is I never have made a merge
<knome> i'll help you once the first period is over
<slickymaster> how do I go about doing it?
<slickymaster> your seeing the soccer match?
<knome> yep
<knome> (you're)
<slickymaster> is Brazil loosing?
<knome> no, it's 1-1
<elfy> not now the ref's cheated
<knome> they did an own goal though...
<slickymaster> that I knew, Marcelo, wasn't it?
<knome> well their goal was fair
<knome> yeah
<knome> neymar tied
<slickymaster> watching now :)
<knome> has been kind of boring after the second goal...
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxml2/+bug/1321869
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1321869 in libxml2 "xmllint 2.9.1+dfsg1-3ubuntu4.1 does not load entities any more" [High,Fix released]
<knome> aha
<slickymaster> good catch Unit193 
<knome> fixed three days ago, but i still had it today?
<slickymaster> yeaps
<knome> slickymaster, ok, so there are basically two ways to do it:
<slickymaster> shoot knome 
<knome> the first one is how i do it, and it's the most straightforward, BUT it doesn't preserve the person doing the merge proposal as the committer
<knome> basically, three steps
<knome> 1) make sure you have the latest main branch
<knome> 2) bzr merge lp:~somebody/xubuntu-docs/their-branch
<knome> 3) bzr commit -m "Merge Somebody's branch." && bzr push
<Unit193> knome: No, downgrade and you're good.
<slickymaster> that somebody is step 2 is exactly who, or what knome?
<Unit193> apt-get download libxml2=2.9.1+dfsg1-3ubuntu4 libxml2-utils=2.9.1+dfsg1-3ubuntu4 python-libxml2=2.9.1+dfsg1-3ubuntu4
<knome> between 2 and 3 you might run into conflicts, if the person doing the merge proposal has used an old revision to base their branch, and same files have been changed in both their branch and the main branch
<knome> slickymaster, in this case, it's jack
<knome> slickymaster, whoever's branch it is you are merging
<slickymaster> but it's his LP alias, right?
<knome> slickymaster, yep. the merge command is always shown in the merge proposal
<knome> slickymaster, in https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8/xubuntu-docs/print-server-settings/+merge/222962
<knome> slickymaster, see "To merge this branch"
<slickymaster> ok knome 
<knome> the other way, just for completeness:
<knome> 1) branch the proposed branch (in this case, lp:~jjfrv8...)
<knome> 2) bzr merge lp:xubuntu-docs
<knome> 3) (i think) bzr commit -m 'Merge with main'
<knome> 4) bzr push lp:xubuntu-docs
<slickymaster> I'll go with your first one knome 
<slickymaster> one last thing knome, there's no need to update the changelog just for this merge, or is it?
<slickymaster> s/is it/is there
<knome> well, it depends how verbose you want to be with the changelog
<slickymaster> as scarce as possible 
<knome> lol
<knome> well, let's go through this case, because there is a nice thing about it
<slickymaster> which is...
<knome> if you write: * Fix the printing chapter to remove a reference to obsolete setting (LP: #1299743)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1299743 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "No options: "Show printers shared by other systems"" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1299743
<knome> then the bug status can be tracked automatically based on the status of the upload/process
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> so i'm kind of in favor of listing everything that has been a bug
<slickymaster> agree
<slickymaster> so, I do it in jjfrv8's branch, before merging it, right?
<knome> and since you are merging with the first way, that's the only way jack can actually be attributed
<knome> you can do it after the bzr merge command
<slickymaster> and then commit it
<knome> then when doing bzr commit, just note you are merging and updating the changelog
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> think I got it
<knome> feel free to ask if there is something else
<slickymaster> but as the second period is about to start, I'll wait for the end of the game to do it
<knome> hehe, i understand ;)
<knome> Unit193, i don't like downgrading :)
<Unit193> Understandable.
<Unit193> So, how do you fix it?
<knome> no idea.
<Unit193> knome: Fixed it.
<knome> Unit193, great! what did you do?
<slickymaster> how did you fix it Unit193?
<Unit193> knome: I patched and recompiled libxml2.
<knome> lol
<knome> that's not a fix for us..
<slickymaster> exactly :P
<Unit193> No really, they did it wrong.  It should be a fix for Ubuntu.
<knome> probably :)
<knome> please propose it.
<Unit193> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/libxml2/trusty-security/revision/73#debian/patches/lp1321869.patch != https://git.gnome.org/browse/libxml2/commit/?id=dd8367da17c2948981a51e52c8a6beb445edf825
<knome> great...
<Unit193> Can I just comment on the current regression bug? :/
<knome> whatever gets the bug fixed.
<Unit193>  --Translating pt
<Unit193> Validating pt/index.xml ...
<Unit193> It's fixed already. :D
<slickymaster> great, Thanks Unit193 
<knome> Unit193, for you, again..
<slickymaster> knome: running the merge command I got:
<slickymaster> Conflict adding file desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po.  Moved existing file to desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po.moved.
<slickymaster> Text conflict in desktop-guide/po/fr.po
<slickymaster> 2 conflicts encountered.  
<knome> slickymaster, yeah... i told you about conflicts :P
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxml2/+bug/1321869 hopefully that's good enough.
<slickymaster> yeah, I rememver
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1321869 in libxml2 "xmllint 2.9.1+dfsg1-3ubuntu4.1 does not load entities any more" [High,Fix released]
<slickymaster> how do I solve it?
<knome> slickymaster, if i understand correctly, *.moved files are the old ones
<knome> slickymaster, so basically, remove those, then run: bzr resolve
<knome> i'd double-check if they are the right files
<slickymaster> knome: in xubuntu-docs/desktop-guide/po/ I just have one .moved file
<knome> let me check what i get.
<knome> yeah, the other ones are .BASE .OTHER .THIS
<Unit193> Yeeeeeah, useless bzr...
<knome> the .moved file is smaller than the non-.moved
<slickymaster> remove all three also
<knome> so i'd remove .moved
<slickymaster> yes...
<slickymaster> what about the .BASE .OTHER .THIS
<slickymaster> ?
<knome> so, that's a text conflict
<knome> let me check how to do this the least manual way
<knome> which is what i usually do..
<slickymaster> yes, in the french po and english po
<slickymaster> oki dokie
<slickymaster> I'll wait for your lead
<knome> if you want the .THIS file, then:
<knome> bzr resolve desktop-guide/po/fr.po --take-this
<slickymaster> 1 conflict resolved, 1 remaining    
<knome> yep, now have you removed the .moved file?
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> then just issue: bzr resolve
<knome> and it'll notice you've resolved that as well
<slickymaster> Remaining conflicts:
<slickymaster> Conflict adding file desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po.  Moved existing file to desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po.moved.
<slickymaster> it got created again
<knome> lol
<knome> weird...
<knome> bzr resolve desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po --take-other
<knome> http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/beta/en/user-reference/conflict-types-help.html
<knome> that's useful
<slickymaster> stranger because if I  ls -la desktop-guide/po/
<slickymaster> there's no .moved file
<slickymaster> and that seemed to be the culprit
<slickymaster> bzr resolve desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po --take-other
<slickymaster> desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po.moved does not exist.
<slickymaster> 1 conflict resolved, 0 remaining
<slickymaster> proceeding with the merge
<knome> good
<slickymaster> nopes knome 
<slickymaster> now it's complaining about bzr: ERROR: Working tree "/home/slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/" has uncommitted changes
<slickymaster> bzr status gives me slickymaster@PaPir:~/xubuntu-docs$ bzr status
<slickymaster> removed: desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po
<slickymaster> added: desktop-guide/po/en_GB.po
<slickymaster> modified: desktop-guide/C/printing-scanning.xml
<slickymaster> pending merge tips: (use -v to see all merge revisions) Jack Fromm 2014-06-12 Revised Printing-Scanning chapter to remove obsolete sharing reference.
<knome> yeah.. because you didn't commit
<knome> i told you to do that before pushing :)
<slickymaster> so, I must commit before merging?
<knome> also remember to edit the changelog
<knome> no,
<knome> you should merge, then commit
<knome> remember, commit is a local action until you've pushed
<slickymaster> I got that when I issue the merge command
<knome> the second time?
<knome> you only need to run it once.
<slickymaster> way before the commit && push commands
<knome> conflicts do not mean the merge action is canceled
<knome> it's done anyway
<slickymaster> oh, so my first merge command did it
<knome> but you're left with a broken state
<knome> yeah.
<slickymaster> now I get it
<knome> the conflicts just mean that doing the merge you have things you need to resolve
<knome> before committing
<slickymaster> so, I now can just and go ahead editing the changelog, commit && push
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> always learning
<slickymaster> that's why yopu're my tutor
<slickymaster> not my grammar police
<knome> ;)
<slickymaster> and spelling cop
<knome> am i not your grammar police :P
<slickymaster> knome: one other thing should I edit under 14.04.1 or 14.10?
<knome> for starters, always something that says UNRELEASED
<slickymaster> in the changelog
<slickymaster> just the 14.10 has the UNRELEASED
<knome> if we were staging this for an SRU, we would want to create a new release
<knome> 14.04.2
<knome> since 14.04.1 is already released, we can't change that any more
<knome> but since we are preparing this for 14.10, it should be that
<slickymaster> not seeing/getting 14.04.2
<knome> no
<knome> because we haven't initialized that version yet :)
<knome> but if/when we do SRU's, we'll do that
<slickymaster> oh, dumb me
<knome> but yeah, general rule is: *never* touch releases that aren't UNRELEASED
<slickymaster> knome: when pushing bzr is naging about bzr: ERROR: No push location known or specified.
<slickymaster> do I bzr push :parent ?
<knome> to be sure, you can do: bzr push lp:xubuntu-docs
<slickymaster> ok
<knome> but :parent *should* be the same
<slickymaster> Pushed up to revision 206. 
<knome> that should be it then
<knome> usually you don't need to do the conflict resolving, so the process will be quite a bit quicker
<knome> well, usually and usually.. at least in an ideal situation
<slickymaster> is it normal that at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/xubuntu-docs/trusty isn't showing it up yet?
<knome> yes... you pushed to the utopic branch
<slickymaster> saw that right after typing :P
<slickymaster> lol
<Unit193> knome: So we supposed to ping someone or something to poke it?
<knome> Unit193, mdeslauriers?
<slickymaster> the bud was inittialy assigned ti him
<slickymaster> s/bud/bug
<slickymaster> not the beer
<knome> and fixed by him.
<slickymaster> yes
<Unit193> bluesabre: Congrats.
<knome> yay
<slickymaster> hey you two got the ML first. Just got it now
<Unit193> knome: Feel like you haven't done enough today?  Want to finish off that translation crap/
<Unit193> slickymaster: And the reply.
<slickymaster> Congrats bluesabre
<knome> Unit193, probably yeah... we could look that over the weekend though, if you are around
<Unit193> Depends, but should work out, if you don't need Friday night.
<knome> not really
<brainwash> should this page be removed? https://launchpad.net/notification-daemon-xfce
<knome> probably
 * knome looks at ochosi 
<brainwash> mmh, https://launchpad.net/xfce-project
<brainwash> some more changes might be needed
<brainwash> like adding Parole
<brainwash> and removing xfmedia
<brainwash> this Xfce project overview site appears to be a little bit outdated :)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-13
<Unit193> knome: He'll prep a regression fix for the regression fix. :D
<knome> great.
<knome> i'm off to bed
<knome> good night and ttyl
<Unit193> G'night.
<bluesabre> thanks guys
<Unit193> Well that went surprisingly well.
<bluesabre> yeah, figured you would run for it or complain about me ;)
<Unit193> Hmm?
<benonsoftware> On the latest daily iso I'm not getting the "Try Xubuntu" or "Install" menu when I boot it now, just goes straight to a live session desktop, is this new?
<Unit193> benonsoftware: New, and bug.
<benonsoftware> Ah, okies. :)
<forestpiskie> Unit193: old 
<elfy> benonsoftware: bug 1325632
<ubottu> bug 1325632 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer fails to start" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1325632
<benonsoftware> Ah
 * benonsoftware should've looked more carefully :P
<elfy> :)
<elfy> did you report it ?
<benonsoftware> Not yet, but I'll report it in a couple hours (have to head out for a little bit)
<elfy> sorry - meant did you report the bug yet - was going to dupe it
<benonsoftware> Ah no
<elfy> if not - I don't need too :)
<benonsoftware> Ah okay :)
<elfy> cool - so just report the existing one on the image tracker and all is well with the world :)
<benonsoftware> Will do :)
<benonsoftware> I didn't know if it was an actual bug or just my computer playing up. :P
<elfy> the installer wouldn't install for ages - it's not just xubuntu :)
<Unit193> forestpiskie: Well, it's not been there for weeks.
<benonsoftware> Weird, it installed pretty fast today for me.
<elfy> Unit193: the bug hasn't no :) 
<Unit193> knome: Oh, and Sunday is off for me as well. :P
<knome> Unit193, hah, then it gets harder
<gry> Hi I'm reading the documentation: at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap I don't really see what's planned or what the todo is. It's an almost empty page.
<brainwash> ali1234: can you confirm this observation? bug 1318307
<ubottu> bug 1318307 in Xfce panel "accounts-daemon rewrite /var/lib/AccountsService/users/xxx file every time workspace is changed" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1318307
<ali1234> yeah that's a known bug
<ali1234> it's because every workspace has a different wallpaper
<GridCube> yeah, those wallpaper thingies are bothering
<GridCube> have you seen this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ristretto/+bug/1314829
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1314829 in ristretto (Ubuntu) ""Set as Wallpaper" doesn't work" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<brainwash> so our xfdesktop patch for accountsservice needs some rework
<GridCube> setting a wallpaper from ristretto is the only way to set up the wallpaper for lightdm
<brainwash> not really, xfdesktop4 is doing that
<GridCube> not really
<GridCube> believe i've tried
<ali1234> yes, the account service patch needs fixing
<ali1234> and yes ristretto is probably the only way that actually works
<ali1234> but xfdesktop still *tries*
<gry> speaking of that bug about ristretto, what motivates it to have 'none, xfce, and gnome' in the wallpaper dialog select box? does it mean that it thinks that a gnome desktop is installed? what does it use to populate that list?
<brainwash> but ristretto only tells xfdesktop to change the background..
<brainwash> well, not anymore
<ali1234> all i know is it doesn't work properly
<brainwash> ristretto doesn't support the new xfdesktop 4.11 xml structure
<gry> because that dialog sounds too complicated for people who have a few desktops - they're logged into one of them, the darn thing would ideally auto-detect
<ali1234> ochosi knows more about it than i do
<gry> i see
<ali1234> since he wrote it...
<gry> he wrote ristretto ?
<ali1234> no he wrote the account service patch
<brainwash> we've only applied eric's patch for thunar
<gry> ok
<brainwash> so you should be able to change the background via thuanr's context menu
<brainwash> and we don't have a patch for ristretto yet
<brainwash> not even an upstream report exists yet I think
<brainwash> ali1234: are you going to take a closer look at the accountsservice patch?
<ali1234> i wasn't planning to
<brainwash> ok
<elfy> bug 1286239 - how do you remove an affects - this should just be testcases not xfce4-settings 
<ubottu> bug 1286239 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "'Wrap works space' NEVER happens for dragged window or mouse pointer." [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1286239
<ali1234> you can't, you can only make them invalid i think
<brainwash> ask someone in #ubuntu-bugs :)
<elfy> thanks ali1234 
<brainwash> I think that members of bugcontrol can do this, or? 
<elfy> brainwash: no thanks :p
<elfy> if it was easy I'd do it - but given the amount of invalid bugs in LP one more won't hurt :)
<brainwash> it surely won't
<elfy> :)
 * Unit193 scratches face at Bug 1329934
<ubottu> bug 1329934 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "with correct video drivers" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1329934
<brainwash> don't blame xubuntu-docs
<Unit193> That's why I'm scratching my head, that's a weird place to file it.
<brainwash> doesn't launchpad pick some "random" package if the reporter didn't specify one?
<brainwash> picks/suggests
<genii> It's hard to tell if he's using nvidia or i915 or both, or what.
<ali1234> he's not using nvidia if he gets stairs... maybe nouveau but not nvidia
<ali1234> he has two computers btw
<ali1234> actually he might be talking about tearing
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-14
<ochosi> hey everyone
<Noskcaj> hey ochosi 
<elfy> mornign
<ochosi> ali1234: to correct you: i'm not the author of that patch, i solely ported it to work with xfdesktop4.11. but yeah, i guess that kinda makes me responsible for this regression...
<ochosi> i wonder how to work around that though. maybe only update the wallpaper when xfdesktop exits?
<Noskcaj> ochosi, Did you talk to eric about the upower patch for session?
<ochosi> Noskcaj: sorry, haven't caught him ol in the last two days
<Noskcaj> ok
<Noskcaj> eric_the_idiot, PING
<Noskcaj> just in case
<ochosi> it's fine, i'll talk to him
<ochosi> either way, it's not like we're in a big rush already
<ochosi> you could also simply take his patch and add it to a test-build in a PPA
<ochosi> then talk to our QA lead about getting it tested
<Noskcaj> well darkxst (ubuntu gnome dev) is wanting the transition done ASAP so gnome can be tested
<Noskcaj> and debian will be uploading soon too
<ochosi> yeah, then follow my other suggestion ;)
<Noskcaj> ok, will do
<ochosi> that's what it's going to boil down to anyways, you know
<ochosi> since eric wrote that one patch, i presume he'll think it's ok
<ochosi> so we should give it some testing to see whether everything works as expected
<ochosi> if the xfce4-session maintainer thinks it should be implemented another way, we can always take the upstream solution later
<brainwash> ochosi: any idea? bug 1321443
<ubottu> bug 1321443 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "xfce4-settings-manager toolbar style doesn't change" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1321443
<brainwash> could it be that (some) gtk3 applications have hardcoded theme/style settings?
<ochosi> that's more than probable
<ochosi> also, i've never used that setting so i can't say if it even works for gtk3
<brainwash> same here, so no clue
<ochosi> a quick test indicates it doesnt work for gtk3
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> so it changes the setting "ToolbarStyle" in Gtk's settings
<ochosi> that seems like a version independent thing
<ochosi> but the question is whether they possibly dropped that setting in gtk3
<ochosi> or whether it's simply being ignored by apps
<brainwash> in gtk's settings?
<ochosi> another thing is that i think themes can modify it
<ochosi> yeah, check xfce4-settings-editor > xsettings > gtk
<ochosi> e.g. the ButtonImages setting really works for Gtk2/3
<brainwash> right, but that's on the xfce side
<ochosi> or the button-sizes
<brainwash> we don't know if these settings are actually applied to gtk3
<ochosi> well as i said, as ButtonImages works for both gtk2/3, yes
<brainwash> ok, so any idea what we should do with the lp report?
<ochosi> look: https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkSettings.html#GtkSettings--gtk-toolbar-style
<ochosi> GtkSettings:gtk-toolbar-style has been deprecated since version 3.10 and should not be used in newly-written code.
<ochosi> This setting is ignored.
<ochosi> if something doesn't work in gtk3, just assume it's deprecated ;)
<brainwash> ah :D
<brainwash> wanna update and close the report then?
<ochosi> done
<brainwash> thanks :)
<ochosi> guess we should remember this when xfce finally moves to gtk3, that this setting has to be dropped
<brainwash> yes, we should
<brainwash> by creating a report? or some roadmap wiki?
<ochosi> hm, otoh there are so many deprecated things... i guess we'll notice
<ochosi> i hope we can begin the transition in the winter or something
<ochosi> chromium in 14.04 really has some issues...
<elfy> not the least of which is that it's chromium 
<ochosi> i've never tried chrome tbh
 * elfy neither and I only try chromium for long enough for it to annoy me :)
<Noskcaj> ochosi, out surrent logind patches break eric's one
<Noskcaj> *current
<ochosi> ok, i guess then we'll have to investigate that a bit more
<brainwash> chromium is always behind with updates on ubuntu
<ochosi> it's also behind on tracking its users, from what i read
<ochosi> elfy: thing is that firefox+flash has become an extremely unstable combo in 14.04 for me, so i need an alternative sometimes
<elfy> yep - I understand that for people 
<bluesabre> yeah, chromium/chrome have issues now
<bluesabre> they no longer use gtk
<ochosi> right, aurora and all
<bluesabre> but that's getting better on its own
<bluesabre> and firefox is working towards better gnome/gtk integration
<ochosi> yeah, what annoys me a bit is the visual inconsistency
<ochosi> suddenly chrome/ium's popups disappear with a fade-out
<ochosi> that makes users wonder why it doesn't happen everywhere
<elfy> I just have issues with bookmarks, it's enough to stop me using it :)
<ochosi> brainwash: btw, have time to look into the xdg-screensaver issue?
<brainwash> ochosi: no, I don't have access to my old pc with the xubuntu installation, so I don't really test or fix xfce related things right now
<brainwash> maybe I should not have left that old thing behind :D
<brainwash> are there any other ways to prevent the screensaver to be triggered?
<ochosi> nope
<brainwash> like simulating input events
<ochosi> not any reliable ones
<ochosi> we want a general solution, not one we have to implement in every app
<brainwash> xdg-screensaver is the problem in this case
<brainwash> there has to be a maintainer for it
<ochosi> wait, so you're not using xubuntu anymore?
<brainwash> no, but I did have my (x)ubuntu test machine to mess around with things
<sveta> what are you using instead of xfce now? I would think you can install couple desktops, one for normal user and one for a test user
<brainwash> space is limited, 40gb ssd here
<brainwash> I use plain X with a basic window manager
<brainwash> working and developing for xfce means also that I need to install all the ubuntu dev packages and so on
<ochosi> actually you don't need any of that for debugging xdg-screensaver :)
<ochosi> i suspect it's just as broken if you don't use light-locker but the built-in screensaver extension
<brainwash> yeah, neither do you :P
<brainwash> I think so so
<ochosi> well, frankly i'm asking you because i'm busy with many other things
<brainwash> light-locker does not do any magic
<ochosi> so yeah, it'll take quite some time until i get to that
<brainwash> we still got some time until 14.10 :)
<ochosi> saying "i don't want to" would be enough, no need to dance around
<brainwash> ok, then I don't want to
<ochosi> yeah, i got that. that was more a note for the future
<elfy> :)
<brainwash> ochosi: bad news, xdg-screensaver works fine here
<brainwash> it inhibits screensaver + dpms
<ochosi> i presume you use the same version as is found in ubuntu?
<ochosi> (with the strange patch)
<brainwash> yes, downloaded and tested it
<brainwash> does power-manager monitor these settings?
<brainwash> the timeouts
<brainwash> I guess that we should ask the affected users to attach the output of "xset -q"
<brainwash> while a movie is playing
<brainwash> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xdg-utils/+bug/1309744/comments/11
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1309744 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "Light Locker blanks the screen when playing video" [Undecided,New]
<brainwash> which patch?
<ochosi> there is a patch that kinda duplicates the callbacks for when the screensaver extension is used in ubuntu
<ochosi> i could never make sense of it
<ochosi> brainwash: actually "xdg-screensaver status" only works for me the first time i run the command
<ochosi> after that i don't get "enabled" or "disabled" but simply nothing
<brainwash> mmh, parole does not actually call .. status
<brainwash> still weird, it works fine here
<brainwash> but this might be a hint :)
<Unit193> Works fine here too.
<ochosi> Unit193: you're using stock xubuntu 14.04 with light-locker?
<Unit193> No
<ochosi> well then, errr... :)
<brainwash> ochosi: did you already check "xset -q" while playing a movie with parole?
<brainwash> maybe some timout is not set properly
<ochosi> brainwash: i did, and it doesn't get changed
<brainwash> ochosi: and after running "xdg-screensaver suspend <window id>"?
<brainwash> some random (valid) window id will do I guess
<brainwash> use "xprop"
<ochosi> yeah, still not suspended
<ochosi> i mean the screensaver time is still 1980 (the value to which i set it)
<brainwash> ok
<brainwash> you didn't close the window before checking xset -q, right?
<ochosi> ofc not
<ochosi> i guess one would have to add lots and lots of debug statements to the script
<brainwash> you can add "set -x"
<brainwash> and then redirect the output
<brainwash> could power-manager interfere somehow?
<eric_the_idiot> Noskcaj, pong
<brainwash> and reset the timeout?
<brainwash> because xdg-screensaver works in non Xubuntu/Xfce
<ochosi> power-manager only interferes with the presentation mode
<ochosi> (which i have deactivated)
<ochosi> otherwise it doesn't touch the blank times
<ochosi> brainwash: i think i got it
<ochosi> note: i think :)
<ochosi> at least it works now
<ochosi> hah, awesome, it sets the screensaver timeout back to the default value of "600" upon resume, so it obviously doesn't remember the time that was set before
<brainwash> upon resume
<ochosi> yeah, after running xdg-screensaver resume windowid
<brainwash> yea, but suspend is our problem, isn't it?
<ochosi> both works now
<brainwash> sounds good
<ochosi> well, the script not remembering the previously set value actually blows big time if you ask me
<ochosi> but that's simply a missing feature
<ochosi> if i wouldn't dislike bash scripts so much, i guess i'd add it
<sveta> I hate css a lot more than bash scripts
<sveta> dislike is probably a better word
<ochosi> if you want we can switch
<ochosi> i'd do a lot of css for not having to do bash :)
<ochosi> brainwash: when you looked before, did you find an "upstream" for xdg-utils?
<ochosi> or is it simply maintained on a distro basis?
<sveta> I asked here the other day. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap is an almost empty page.
<sveta> I don't know what the current focus(es) are.
<brainwash> ochosi: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xdg/xdg-utils/
<brainwash> and the ubuntu package includes a patch which should be dropped
<brainwash> so there are some reasons to prepare a new release of xdg-utils
<ochosi> anyway, it's extremely silly to first detect a DE (in our case "xfce") and then do a "case $DE in" where xfce isn't handled at all
<ochosi> same goes for lxde
<Noskcaj> eric_the_idiot, If your still here, could you try and get the upower fix committed to xfce-session git soon? Also, could you please refresh you patch to work with our patched version of session (our logind patch conflicts with it)
<brainwash> ochosi: can I add shimmer-themes to the list in bug 1056978?
<ubottu> bug 1056978 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Resizing windows by grabbing window borders is difficult" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1056978
<brainwash> you plan to provide a version of greybird with thicker borders, right?
<ochosi> knome added that to the roadmap
<ochosi> currently i don't think i'll have time for greybird-a11y
<brainwash> mmh, I wanted to implement the invisible border resizing, but sadly no time to do it either
<brainwash> and upstream does not seem to like the invis border idea, because it needs the compositor -> won't fix
<Unit193> zequence: Good luck on the 16th, if I don't catch you before then.
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-15
<brainwash> ochosi: regarding bug 1310264, is the workaround solution ok? should I prepare a branch?
<ubottu> bug 1310264 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Can't search/find items in the Settings Manager" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310264
<slickymaster> elfy: https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/bugfixes1306/+merge/223117 <- on it
<slickymaster> elfy, https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/bugfixes1306/+merge/223117 <- done
<elfy> slickymaster: thanks :)
<slickymaster> np elfy 
 * slickymaster goes back to the Equator - Switzerland match
<knome> slickymaster, it's ecuador :P
<elfy> and they are losing ... 
<slickymaster> your sure knome ?
<elfy> I am sure too slickymaster :)
<slickymaster> ok
<slickymaster> I stand corrected 
<elfy> you can sit down - it's fine :)
<slickymaster> lol
<knome> slickymaster, yeap :P
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, please prepare a branch if you can! thanks
<brainwash> ochosi: so, it's ok to bring the settings category back? it will be visible in the whisker and classic app menu
<ochosi> i don't mind if it's visible in whisker
<ochosi> the regression in the classic app menu is okayish i think
<ochosi> if people complain, we can try to supply yet another menu file that those using the classic menu can use then
<brainwash> right, I don't think that anyone will complain about it
<ochosi> me neither
<ochosi> after all, we've had it like that for quite a while actually
<ochosi> before the settings manager became searchable
<brainwash> ok
<Unit193> Hmm, regression in classic?
<ochosi> Unit193: well, "regression"
<ochosi> first of all, ppl have to manually change the setup to get the classic menu
<Unit193> Oh, the settings menu, yeah that's just a different default, no big thing.
<ochosi> second, it's only that the settings category is back, but the settings manager will still be the first menu
<ochosi> -item
<elfy> I'll be glad to see gparted back in my menu :p
<ochosi> yeah, i think making whisker access as many apps as possible is ideal
<elfy> yep
<elfy> ochosi: you got any idea yet when's best for meeting next week? 
<brainwash> ochosi: damn this AppData stuff =S
<brainwash> the Xfce project got bigger problems apparently :/
<brainwash> doesn't the ubuntu software center provide screenshots and maybe metadata for some Xfce applications?
<brainwash> could be reused
<ochosi> brainwash: what's your problem exactly with appdata and why are you pinging me about it?
<ochosi> (and why in this channel)
<Unit193> They still seem like a pointless/stupid Gnome thing to me..
<brainwash> this channel, because we also need to care about the ubuntu software center
<bluesabre> Does AppData apply to USC?
<brainwash> maybe reuse the screenshots
<bluesabre> USC gets its data from the debian package/screenshot database
<brainwash> screenshot database?
<brainwash> so, would these existing screenshots be of any help for creating the appdata?
<bluesabre> https://screenshots.debian.net/
<bluesabre> probably not, from what I understand they want a specific aspect ratio for screenshots
<bluesabre> that's definitely an ochosi question though ;)
<brainwash> and most likely some consistency too, like same gtk and icon theme
<brainwash> would at least help
<ochosi> well it would help
<ochosi> but the fundamental difference is that appdata is supposed to be distro-unspecific
<ochosi> which could also be considered a disadvantage or advantage, depending on your viewpoint
<ochosi> so yeah, consistency and all, but in general appdata is something that xfce has to take care about
<ochosi> usc is something xubuntu related
<ochosi> so imo that's quite clear
<ochosi> even if we decide to replace USC with some gnome app center or another thing that uses appdata in xubuntu, it'll still be up to xfce to supply appdata
<brainwash> so I was thinking of combining the efforts, simply use the screenshots for appdata (xfce) and usc (debian/ubuntu)
<ochosi> hm yeah, well you can always submit the screenshots from appdata to usc or debian's database
<ochosi> but frankly i hope that they will somewhat automate that
<ochosi> the other way round may suck, because appdata wants 16:10 screenshots and i don't think debian has any restrictions/recommendations (at least i can't remember right now)
<brainwash> alright
<ochosi> sometimes i wonder whether we can't use some of mint's tools... http://www.linuxmint.com/pictures/screenshots/qiana/mintlocale.png
<bluesabre> well, we can always implement them ourselves ;)
<bluesabre> mint uses xfce for one of their spins, so it would mean less for them to maintain ;)
<ochosi> that is taken from the xfce spin actually
<ochosi> they just released it
<ochosi> i mean they released the RC: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2649
<ochosi> and that language tool looks much nicer than ours
<ochosi> obviously we'd have to test it and see whether it works fine
<brainwash> oh, they still use xfce 4.10
<brainwash> is this even true?
<ochosi> no
<ochosi> they obviously use xfdesktop 4.11
<ochosi> unless their screenshots are "too new" :p
<brainwash> I think so too
<brainwash> "Good that you resisted the temptation to use Xfce 4.11 development release."
<brainwash> so this comment is wrong then
<ochosi> i guess so, frankly, i haven't dealt with mint a lot so far
<brainwash> I haven't tested it yet, but I will
<ochosi> great, looking forward to hearing about it
<ochosi> also wonder what user management tool they use
<ochosi> maybe there's more we can borrow
<brainwash> and I'm curious about their display manager mdm + html5 greeter
<ochosi> yeah
<brainwash> maybe we could even cooperate with them to fix problems with the current LTS release
<ochosi> why not, some things will hit them too
<brainwash> how do they track bugs? :)
<ochosi> i have no idea
<Noskcaj> +1 to trying to work with mint
<Unit193> Meh, mint.
<Noskcaj> their bugs are in LP
<brainwash> I haven't seen many mint reports there
<Noskcaj> https://bugs.launchpad.net/linuxmint
<brainwash> almost nothing related to Xfce :P
<Noskcaj> bug 1271866
<ubottu> bug 1271866 in Linux Mint "Xfce edition lacks graphical tool for adding user accounts" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1271866
<Noskcaj> they've got a few
<brainwash> oh, this particular one is odd
<brainwash> they don't ship a gui tool for account management
<Noskcaj> Most of the issues seem to be default config related like that one
<brainwash> but it's strange that there is no contact to the mint guys
<brainwash> or active communication
<brainwash> because we share a lot of problems and bugs I'd think
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> i'm open to cooperation
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-08
<ochosi> knome: ping
<ochosi> knome: ok, to be more concrete, i improved the CSD window control look. however, the window-close icon still isn't as nice as it could be. do you still have the svg source of the icon you did for greybird's xfwm4 theme? http://i.imgur.com/Qr05GYl.png
<ochosi> knome: and yes, we need an svg, for the current one, look in actions/symbolic in elementary-xfce
<bluesabre> Unit193: so, about that package... any concerns about it, or does it seem sane?
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<ochosi> just the guy i was looking for... :)
<bluesabre> uh oh
<ochosi> could you reproduce something for me in wily?
<bluesabre> not running wily atm
<ochosi> when tiling a CSD window to the right, i get messed up CSD button padding
<ochosi> oh ok
<ochosi> anyway, this is it (for reference) http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJIqqMdw.png&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNH9tn-EdGpI-UjDZQSoIz84ciyXfw
<ochosi> gah
<ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/JIqqMdw.png
 * ochosi shakes his angry fist at google hangouts
<bluesabre> both worked for me
<bluesabre> but wow
<ochosi> in Numix, the close button is even pushed offscreen
<bluesabre> that's special
<ochosi> oddly enough, if i do the same thing on the left, everything is fine
<ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/RyFDOw9.png
<ochosi> just noticed because i was working towards improving the CSD buttons/icons
<ochosi> also, if we decide to opt in for more apps with CSD in xubuntu, i might have to change the WM theme a bit to not make them stand out so much
<bluesabre> the wm theme could use a refresh :)
<bluesabre> btw, that works fine for me with gtk 3.16 in vivid
<ochosi> oh you have 3.16?
<ochosi> anyway, that was what i wanted you to test (wrt wily)
<ochosi> so ok, i won't spend more time hunting this down
<ochosi> i already have some ideas for refreshing the wm theme
<ochosi> it'll likely only be the hover/click effects, not the icons
<bluesabre> http://i.imgur.com/jzmnHfg.png
<ochosi> i still like the simplicity of them
<ochosi> heh, i love how the xfpm plugin stands out as the only correctly colored one ;)
<ochosi> for that alone, the ubuntu indicators suuuck
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> ok, gotta go shopping
<ochosi> bbl
<lderan> good luck food hunting
<ochosi> micahg: still around?
<micahg> yes
<ochosi> would you mind adding a tiny patch to xfpm 1.5.1 in our staging PPA?
<ochosi> i'm generally willing to release 1.5.2 soonish, but doing that because of a one-liner seems a bit over the top
<ochosi> however, it's a bit of a show-stopper (segfault with trayicon enabled)
<micahg> ochosi: you might want to release 1.5.2 for the benefit of other users :)
<ochosi> i don't think 1.5.1 is packaged anywhere yet
<ochosi> but yeah, i will do 1.5.2 soon, i just want maybe some more bugfixes
<micahg> ochosi: you could do a 1.5.1.1 depending on how bad of a show stopper, also, not everyone uses the packaged versions :)
<ochosi> yeah, but those who don't use the packaged version can simply run a git pull and rebuild
<ochosi> and meh, micro-versioning
<micahg> I mean, they use the tarballs, not the distro versions
<ochosi> seriously? what would the benefit of using a tarball be when you can grab git master?
<micahg> stability of tagged versions
<micahg> not everyone likes bleeding edge ;)
<ochosi> yeah, but if you use tagged versions, why not use the packaged versions
<ochosi> anyway, this isn't leading where i intended to go... :)
<micahg> sorry, wasn't sure if you meant that packaged == tarball or packaged == distro
<micahg> anyways, happy to upload the patch if a new release isn't forthoming
<ochosi> yeah, i'm not sure, maybe i will do a 1.5.1.1
<ochosi> it just isn't very xfce-typical
<micahg> you could do a .2 if .1.1 is too awful looking :), it's relatively common to spin a new release with a small number of fixes if there's a common crash
<ochosi> actually, i think it's not even really possible with the major/minor version division in the configure file
<ochosi> and it would sort of break the current documentation standard
<ochosi> so if anything, it would be 1.5.2
<micahg> ok
<dkessel> hmm if i have tooltip rendering issues in chrome under xubuntu, would that likely be a chrome or a xfce/xubuntu issue?
<ochosi> dkessel: i've seen it too. chromium uses its own engine for drawing the UI, so chrome issue
<dkessel> meh
<ochosi> yeah, they switched over to "aurora" (i think)
<ochosi> hence the fancy animations and stuff within chromium
<dkessel> is the parole crash on startup on wily known?
<dkessel> oh wait it have not updated today
<dkessel> mkay. still present
<dkessel> also, qt app theming in broken again. i have seen it in quassel-client, which luckily had a setting to change the theme, and am seeing it in vlc now.
<dkessel> the icons in vlc look much better than when it was broken in vivid ;) but the menu bar has the wrong color
<dkessel> and some menus show unchecked checkboxes that normally don't display any checkbox
<ochosi> dkessel: yeah, those are pretty much all theming issues related to qt not applying the gtk theme
<ochosi> and sucks that parole even crashes, seems new bugs are piling up there
<knome> ochosi, i likely do, but i'll need to check my deksktop for that
<ochosi> knome: ok, thanks!
<bluesabre> evening all
<Unit193> Howdy, bluesabre.
<bluesabre> hiya Unit193
<micahg> ochosi: do you still need me to upload something?
 * micahg saw a build failure earlier
<bluesabre> micahg: I can look into it... I know the daily has been failing to build for a few days, haven't had a chance to look until now
<micahg> bluesabre: and sorry, I still need to look at your package as well
<bluesabre> micahg: np
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh right, that thing you'd pinged.  No, didn't see it.  Link passed when I couldn't, and then I'd have had searched for it.  Also saw the note that micahg was going to review it, and he's at least 10x better than me sooo. :)
<micahg> trying to process some backports quickly
<bluesabre> ochosi: btw, I'm also of the opinion that a new point release is a better option
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-09
<pleia2> knome: not sure what to do with the email in the -contacts queue, I'm not really inclined to review the video but not sure who to point them at
<Unit193> So, every time I even think of doing xubuntu-core stuff, I go all "Nope, effort!" :/
<Unit193> Bumped Debian's xfdash, poked Corsac. :3
<bluesabre> Unit193: oh goodie
<bluesabre> I wonder what we'll have to do next
<bluesabre> I'm hacking on Catfish a bit, converting the searching portion to GObject and using signals instead of python generators... should make things more responsive, hopefully
<bluesabre> and yawning a lot
<bluesabre> so bed time
<Unit193> I'm still trying to get local package delta down. :3
<bluesabre> bbl
<Unit193> Heh, g'night.
<knome> pleia2, i know
<knome> pleia2, i'll likely reply to them off-list or sth when i feel better
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, ofc i'm also in favor of another point release. i just thought that adding the patch to the package in the PPA wouldn't be much hassle
<bluesabre> its not much of a hassle, but not much gain overall either :)
<bluesabre> 1.5.1 has been tagged in debian, btw
<ochosi> hmright, i'll see whether we can get some more patches together for 1.5.2
<bluesabre> btw, there's currently an issue with building xfpm-daily in wily... I poked it a bit yesterday, but couldn't make any progress
<bluesabre> I'll figure something out tonight though
<bluesabre> it still builds in vivid, fwiw
<ochosi> oh alright
<ochosi> btw, you said you were working on catfish, you'll let me know when the headerbar stuff gets pushed?
<bluesabre> yeah, but it also sounded like we weren't sure we wanted the headerbar?
<ochosi> right, well i discussed it with knome and elfy a bit during the last meeting
<ochosi> personally, i think we could opt in for headerbar with specific apps
<ochosi> e.g. simplescane
<ochosi> -e
<ochosi> ultimately it might be a team decision
<ochosi> and for catfish, that's up to you as the author :)
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> i mean there aren't so many options etc there so i don't think there'd be a real usability issue with it
<ochosi> personally i would be in favor of using a headerbar with it
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> I'm taking care of a few other things while working on it
<ochosi> yeah, i read you're working under the hood as well
<bluesabre> going to have a plugin architecture for various search methods
<bluesabre> and a buddy of mine suggested creating an interface for unity scopes, which could be a fun later project
<bluesabre> or rather, extend and fix the existing plugin architecture
<ochosi> you mean using unity scopes through catfish?
<bluesabre> yeah, it'd be just another plugin, just a bit more specialized
<ochosi> sounds pretty powerful, but i wonder about the visual representation of the results
<ochosi> still list-style?
<ochosi> (thought there are apps etc as scopes)
<bluesabre> dunno, haven't thought that far ahead or done any research yet
<ochosi> sure, i guess these first steps will be enough work
<ochosi> also, dkessel reported parole being very crashy on wily
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> i'll only be able to test that when i receive my new lappy (which will be a few more days)
<bluesabre> nothing changed in parole, and it works with gtk 3.16 on vivid, so I chalk it up to the unstableness of wily atm
<ochosi> yeah, that would have been my response
<ochosi> prolly gstreamer madness or something
<bluesabre> I'll take a look soonish
<ochosi> yeah, as soon as i'm able to test again, i will too
<ochosi> atm i still feel quite stuck on this old machine
<ochosi> knome: i thought about our LO icons effort again and i think i wanna restyle the alignment icons (and similar monochrome ones) in the colorscheme of the elementary-xfce-darker/actions/24 icons
<ochosi> i think that'll make them stand out less in our default theme
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<ochosi> currently they look a bit dark
<ochosi> ttyl bluesabre and hf
<knome> aha
<ochosi> bluesabre: had some light-locker-settings fun today. hope you'll enjoy it too (we could even consider a 1.5.1 release for it at some point)
<ochosi> anyway, calling it an early night
<ochosi> ->
<Unit193> Debian #788271, that shouldn't be thunar. :P
<ubottu> Debian bug 788271 in thunar "thunar: Desktop freezes momentarily when deleting items from it" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/788271
<brainctl> old/buggy gvfs
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-10
 * bluesabre fumbles around trying to rename a debian bug
<Unit193> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq#How_do_I_make_my_first_package.3F mentions it.
<bluesabre> yay, it just took a while https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=781014
<ubottu> Debian bug 781014 in wnpp "ITP: xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin -- Xfce4 panel plugin to" [Wishlist,Open]
<Unit193> bluesabre: Great!
<Unit193> Well, ok at least .:P
<Unit193> I didn't do it = great
<bluesabre> :p
<Unit193> Should I nitpick? :P
<bluesabre> only if you want to make the changes :p
<Unit193> Done.
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> ...Not done.
<bluesabre> D:
<Unit193> Done.
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> what'd you do?
<Unit193> Nope, not done.  I'm not play with this crap anymore.
<bluesabre> lol
<Unit193> Read manpage.
<Unit193> Follow manpage
<Unit193> Broken
<Unit193> Nope
<bluesabre> poor Unit193
<bluesabre> what are you trying to accomplish?
<Unit193> Using an application how the manpage directs you to, the 'bts' application.
<Unit193> Figured, forget this.  Man, I like LP so much right now, it's bad.
<bluesabre> lol
<Unit193> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=781014
<ubottu> Debian bug 781014 in wnpp "ITP: xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin -- Xfce4 panel plugin to control pulseaudio" [Wishlist,Open]
<Unit193> bluesabre: Don't touch bts, reportbug isn't jacked up though, I've used it before.
<bluesabre> I just used the email commands
<Unit193> Email is the only way, it's a terrible system.
<bluesabre> I'll do the xfdashboard ITP in the morning, unless you want to mess with it
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Nooope.
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> tomorrow it is
<bluesabre> sleep now, bbl
<Unit193> I filed an xorg bug, didn't do anything though. :P
<Noskcaj> New xfpm won't let me change brightness via hotkeys. Is this a known issue?
<ochosi> Noskcaj: there has been another report of that, but we haven't changed anything there. so it's likely something else
<sorinb> Hello. I know that this may sound idiotic, but how can I open a xfce module in eclipse ? I come from Java background, where I use maven, so there is a file which Eclipse reads in order to open the module. How  can I open for example http://git.xfce.org/xfce/exo/tree/exo-open inside eclipse ?
<sorinb> Makefile Project ?
<lderan> is your eclipse setup for c/c++'ing?
<sorinb> yes
<sorinb> I'd like to try to fix a bug I've reported yesterday, so I'd like to dive in a little bit in the  code, even that I don't know C/C++ nor GTK 3
<lderan> you might need to setup an eclipse project and copy the files into it or just open the main.c file with eclipse
<sorinb> lderan, what I am mostly interested is to be able to navigate from one class to another when clicking on an object. Having an easy way to navigate through files it will be easier to understand the code
<sorinb> i guess :)
<lderan> then all you need is the main.c file really, use automake or make -f Makefile.in to compile and see if your patch works :)
<sorinb> lderan, I'm not useless in C++, I'm null in C++. It will get some time for me to be able to produce a patch. Let's not say that I might fix something in the wrong place, don't even know if my bug report is valid :)
<lderan> sure it is, what goes wrong with exo-open?
<sorinello> lderan, : let me find the issue
<sorinello> lderan, https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11976 it might be a wrong issue
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11976 in Settings Manager "Preferred Applications does not update default browser properly (xdg-open)" [Normal,New]
<dkessel> mhh today's parole version does not crash, but instead hangs while consuming 100% of one cpu thread
<sorinello> lderan, ping
<brainwash> dkessel: but parole was not updated, so it's still the same version, or?
<dkessel> i got an update from the -dev ppa, revision 898 -> 899 (wily)
<dkessel> i haven't looked at the code changes ;) maybe this changed behaviour is just because of some other package update....
<dkessel> anyway, still unusable
<brainwash> probably
<Noskcaj> ochosi, It seems to be that the panel plugin's brightness slider is taking control from everything else
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: think you might be interested in https://bugs.launchpad.net/~elfy/+subscribedbugs
<sorinello> Hello. I have cloned the entire exo repo, and opened it in Eclipse, using Import -> Makefile project. To problem is that I get a TON of errors in main.c because a lot of the symbols cannot be resolved. Could someone tell me what am I doing wrong ?
<knome> maybe you need libexo-1-0-dbg (and exo-utils-dbg)
<sorinello> those are packages ?
<Unit193> dbg?  Not likely, though I have no idea how Eclipse works, I'd think it's talking about libxfceui4 symbols.
<knome> libxfce4ui-1-dbg then
<sorinello> for example, 2 includes cannot be found: #include <glib/gstdio.h>
<sorinello> #include <gio/gio.h>
<Unit193> Then you need those dev packages.
<Unit193> sudo apt-get build-dep exo
<sorinello> thanks, installing now
<sorinello> but just as curiosity, how does Eclipse know where to look for these files ?
<sorinello> ok, installed the package along a lot of other dependencies, but I still get the same number of errors
<Unit193> That's relative to the includes dir, so gio is a dir and gio.h is the file.
<sorinello> I reimport the project, Eclipse is asking me "Toolchain for Indexer Settings": I have 4 options: 1) none, 2) Cross GCC, 3) GNU Autotools Toolchain, 4) Linux GCC. Which should I choose ?
<sorinello> ok, I've managed to fix most of them... not it's complaining about GTK
<sorinello> I see a lot of related gtk packages, could you tell me which one I need ?
<knome> sorinello, what are you actually trying to achieve?
<knome> sorinello, why are you looking at the exo repository to begin with?
<sorinello> knome, do be able to look at main.c from exo-open without having errors in eclipse
<knome> sorinello, no, that's not what i'm asking
<sorinello> I imported the full exo module, from its root, but I am interested in exo-open
<knome> what are you looking to do with exo-open?
<sorinello> study a bit the code, play around, maybe fix an issue I've reported
<knome> then i think it would be more beneficial for your hacking that you figured out the packages you need yourself
<knome> (no, i don't even know the answer to that question)
<sorinello> okay. too bad the docs don't have more detailed steps on how to setup a dev environment
<knome> #xfce-dev is likely better for getting information on setting up xfce devel environment
<knome> ^ on that channel you can leave feedback about that, and if you are willing, volunteer to help improving the docs
<sorinello> thanks for pointing, didn't know about that channel
<knome> you're welcome, good luck
<sorinello> ok, managed to fix that, but now I get some missing includes which I really don't know even where they should be :))
<sorinello> symbols like: EXIT_FAILURE, EXIT_SUCCESS
<sorinello> and  PACKAGE_VERSION
<ochosi> dkessel: no new relevant commits in parole. you can always check here: http://git.xfce.org/apps/parole/ (only translation updates)
<ochosi> dkessel: so it's very unlikely (again or still) that this is really related to parole. might be some gtk3 or gstreamer hickups in 15.10
<ochosi> Noskcaj: hm, strange, works just fine here. so what you're saying is that the plugin's slider works but the laptop's brightness buttons don't?
<Noskcaj> yes
<ochosi> odd
<ochosi> sorinello: so wait, apt-get build-dep didn't do the trick for you at all? did you run ./autogen.sh and then you got the missing symbols thing?
<ochosi> Noskcaj: so with 1.4.4 everything is fine while with 1.5.0/1.5.1 it isn't?
<sorinello> ochosi, you mean build-essential ? Cos I can't find build-dep
<ochosi> ehm, running "sudo apt-get build-dep exo" didnt work?
<sorinello> ochosi, yepp, I have it installed. I ran autogen.sh, all seemed good. Debug support: full, GNU visibility: yes. Then I ran make and it crashed with: exo-job.c: In function 'exo_job_emit_valist':
<sorinello> exo-job.c:398:3: error: 'g_io_scheduler_job_send_to_mainloop' is deprecated (declared at /usr/include/glib-2.0/gio/gioscheduler.h:42): Use 'g_main_context_invoke' instead [-Werror=deprecated-declarations]
<ochosi> oh ok
<sorinello> what am I doing wrong ?
<ochosi> well, in that case run autogen with less debug support ;)
<ochosi> e.g. ./autogen.sh --enable-debug=no
<ochosi> that should help with the deprecation warnings
<ochosi> thing is, with full debug support the compiler considers warnings deadly threats
<sorinello> indeed, this worked :)
<sorinello> ochosi, and if I want to open the code in eclipse, I have to include some additional paths, right ? pointing to /usr/include .....
<ochosi> sorry, with eclipse you're on your own. i've never used it for anything
<sorinello> what IDE do you use, vim ? :)
<ochosi> mousepad ;D
<ochosi> no, tbh i don't use IDEs for my coding. all i need is an editor with syntax highlighting
<ochosi> geany is quite nice though
<sorinello> have you tried sublime ?
<knome> ochosi, but mister big mister, shouldn't this discussion be on -offtopic
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> oh, the channel police!
<brainwash_> we prefer open source software
<knome> at your service!
<sorinello> sorry for the noise, I'll keep quitet :)
<ochosi> sorinello: i might have. and i might have tried atom
<knome> sorinello, i'm mostly kidding, but on a serious note too, #xubuntu-offtopic isn't a horrible place :)
<knome> brainwash_, the royal "we" ?
<ochosi> :D
<ochosi> sorinello: also, no reason thou shall "quitet" straight away
<ochosi> especially because everyone here seems to be in a jolly mood tonight
<knome> ochosi, are you making me put on my language police hat on as well?
 * ochosi wants to see how many hats knome can put on at once
<knome> two hats together look silly, you know
<ochosi> sorinello: anyway, good luck with fixing that exo bug!
 * knome puts the jester hat on top of the bearskin
<ochosi> thanks, that pretty much makes my night :)
<knome> ochosi, now see, this looks totally silly!
<ochosi> anyway, that means i can finally head off to bed
<sorinello> ochosi, I don't even know if it's a valid one: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11976
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11976 in Settings Manager "Preferred Applications does not update default browser properly (xdg-open)" [Normal,New]
<knome> ochosi, good night ;)
 * ochosi ticks "make knome wear >1 hats" off his bucket list and wanders off
<knome> hah!
<brainwash_> sorinello: did you try "exo-open ..."?
<ochosi> sorinello: last note before i leave: chrome might not be best-practice in this respect and xdg-open != exo-open
<sorinello> yeah, I agree, but if other apps use xdg-open ... exo-open becomes useless for these programs
<sorinello> speaking of hats, I have my dumb user hat on right now :)
<brainwash_> also, ubuntu ships with an old and custom patched xdg-open version
<brainwash_> please try the git version
<sorinello> the one which expects this setting from xfce-settings to go system wide
<sorinello> btw: you can close my issue if you consider it's invalid
<brainwash_> but it does not work as expected
<brainwash_> sorinello: it's probably bug 1388922
<ubottu> bug 1388922 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "xdg-open doesn't properly detect Xfce/Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1388922
<brainwash_> xdg-open calls exo-open if it detects xfce or xubuntu
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-11
<micahg> hi bluesabre , I noticed an RC for blueman was in Debian, did we want that nowish or is later ok
<bluesabre> micahg: no hurry
<micahg> ok
<bluesabre> micahg: have you had a chance to glance over the greeter package?  I think it's okay, files are migrated as I expect, so it should be safe
<micahg> no, sorry, will try soon
<micahg> bluesabre: it seems that you are missing a slash before usr in a few places
<micahg> also, conf files in /usr/share seem wrong
<Unit193> Depends on the config, that's where the lightdm xubuntu session is, and is good there.
<micahg> well, I would think it violates FHS, /etc is for configuration files
<micahg> I see the lightdm files there...
<Unit193> They aren't meant to be changed.
<micahg> doesn't matter
<micahg> hrm
<micahg> well, does matter :)
<micahg> but still feels wrong
<micahg> violates Debian policy 10.7.2, https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-files.html#s-config-files
<bluesabre> debian did it first at least
<bluesabre> override_dh_install:
<bluesabre> 	dh_install debian/01_debian.conf usr/share/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf.d/
<micahg> in lightdm?
<Unit193> No, the greeter.  To override defaults, create a config file in /etc/
<Unit193> micahg: pbuilder ships defaults in /usr/share/ where you're supposed to override in /etc/
<micahg> hrm
<micahg> seems like this needs clarifying
<micahg> I have to run right now though
<Unit193> OK.
<bluesabre> so maybe in the case of this package, 01_ubuntu.conf should go in /usr, and the existing conf should migrate to /etc
<ochosi> Unit193: btw, wanna take on patching ubiquity to use feh instead of xfdesktop (since you've worked on that part before) ?
<Unit193> Not specifically...
<Unit193> Can't say I know it or python well.
<ochosi> Unit193: if you change your mind and take a look, that'd be appreciated anyway ;)
 * knome cheers for Unit193 
<bluesabre> Team members read below
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> wut
<bluesabre> I'm trying to guage interest in meeting times since I suck at making it to meetings
<bluesabre> gauge
<knome> we can simply run yet another doodle poll (tm)
<bluesabre> M-F, 0:00 - 2:00 UTC, 9:00 - 12:00 UTC, 20:00 - 23:59 UTC
<bluesabre> Weekends, any time
<bluesabre> knome: yeah, that might require more effort and less chiming in
 * knome shrugs
<bluesabre> !team
<ubottu> bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<knome> i can set it up
<bluesabre> (See above)
<knome> leaving your schedule there is easy
<knome> but sure, whatever works
<bluesabre> knome: sure, if you'd like to set it up, we can go from there
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> ok, just a sec
<knome> http://doodle.com/vmzrybyw9r9929wt
<knome> !team | please fill in the doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vmzrybyw9r9929wt for meeting time coordination
<knome> oh stupid bot :)
<knome> !conga-rats-#ubuntustudio-devel | bluesabre 
<ubottu> bluesabre: â« samba rumba bueno la conga cha cha cha
<knome> !team | please fill in the doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vmzrybyw9r9929wt for meeting time coordination
<knome> ubottu, please? :)
<knome> my luck has turned!
<knome> !team | please fill in the doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vmzrybyw9r9929wt for meeting time coordination
 * knome slaps ubottu
<knome> !team
<ubottu> bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<knome> ^
<knome> 22UTC... wasn't that our previous fixed meeting time :)
<knome> seems like it still works
<bluesabre> edit my previous since I am UTC dumb... M-F, 0:00 - 6:00 UTC, 9:00 - 12:00 UTC, 22:00 - 23:59 UTC
<slickymasterWork> done bluesabre, but please take in consideration that I'm just filling for DST
<bluesabre> but yeah, up there on doodle
<knome> lol
<knome> doodle makes it so much easier to figure out the results <3
<knome> that just works
<slickymasterWork> when I'm not under DST my time frame goes back one hour
<bluesabre> slickymasterWork: np, this will help me get a general overview
<slickymasterWork> weekends generally any hour is good, provided I'm awake :P
<slickymasterWork> and not hanged over 
<knome> slickymasterWork, likely sameish for most
<slickymasterWork> lol, not being hanged over?
<knome> slickymasterWork, but you didn't fill in any weekend time?
<knome> was referring to DST...
<slickymasterWork> see above knome 
<slickymasterWork> I know you were
<knome> i know but it would be great if you could slap in all the times there then
<knome> this isn't "you promised you can do that time on every occasion, pay us 1M$ since you didn't"
<bluesabre> gotta run now, bbl
<knome> it's "let's see when we generally are all available"
<knome> hf bluesabre 
<slickymasterWork> ok ok ok, it's done
<knome> thanks ;)
<slickymasterWork> hf bluesabre 
<knome> slickymasterWork, i don't see it though :P
<knome> oh, there it is
<slickymasterWork> blame google
<knome> ;)
<knome> always...
<slickymasterWork> :)
<ochosi> afternoon ppls
<knome> hullo
<ochosi> knome: i've got a free hour or so today, wanna work on some LO icons together or something?
<knome> with YOU?
<knome> :P
<ochosi> yeah, i know... does that make it weird?
<knome> let's see
<knome> i'm having a nice break now
<sorinb> Hello :)
<ochosi> knome: uhm, you mean a break in the sense that you're going afk? or a break in the sense that you wanna do something? :)
<ochosi> hi sorinb 
<sorinb> i'm also sorinello, the guy from last night with the eclipse import issues :)
<ochosi> i supposed so :)
 * ochosi is wearing his sherlock hat
 * sorinb is still wearing his end-user hat :)
<knome> ochosi, heh, break in the sense that i'm not doing work/foss work
<knome> not exactly afk either though
<brainwash> sorinb: did you read bug bug 1388922 ?
<ubottu> bug 1388922 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "xdg-open doesn't properly detect Xfce/Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1388922
<sorinb> brainwash, yes, but there is a thing I don't understand
<sorinb> it states that the but was opened on 
<sorinb> Bug #1388922 reported by Danila Poyarkov on 2014-11-03
<ubottu> bug 1388922 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "xdg-open doesn't properly detect Xfce/Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1388922
<sorinb> yet, the first comment is from wrote on 2011-01-20: 
<knome> sorinb, it's linked to a bugzilla bug that was reported earlier
<brainwash> sorinb: the first comments are synced from the upstream report
<sorinb> ok, I understand. Not sure what is freedesktop.org, but it's quite olf idf this is from 2011 
<brainwash> the package in ubuntu is old. some patches were added over time
<sorinb> so I guess I can close my issue, since it's not related to xfce at all. I have no experience on how packages from different entities interfere, so I was expecting exo to have full authonomy and apply whatever background command it needed to achieve the functionality. I implied that exo-open should call xdg-open
<brainwash> ubuntu 12.04 has version 1.1.0~rc1 too
<brainwash> the other way round, xdg-open should open exo-open
<brainwash> you should test xdg-open from upstream git before closing your report
<sorinb> brainwash, what do you mean ? checkout, build, install and test ?
<knome> pleia2, ygm re: -contacts
<brainwash> sorinb: yes. it's just a shell script after all, so not much can go wrong
<knome> having seen what $users do... yes, a lot of things *can* go wrong ;)
<sorinello> indeed. I only ran autogen.sh and then built. I don't even know where the packabe is created so I can install it. Even more, I don't know what to test. The fact that it's not working ?
<knome> the reason why you would check with upstream is if it's working with the upstream version, eg. if the bug you have found is already fixed, but just not landed into ubuntu yet
<brainwash> how did you build it? why do you expect a package?
<sorinello> knome, yeah, I understand. But the bug on launchpad doesn't seem fixed
<knome> sorinello, when using the upstream version?
<brainwash> ubuntu is downstream, freedesktop is upstream
<sorinello> knome, : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xdg-utils/+bug/1388922 this seems open
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1388922 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "xdg-open doesn't properly detect Xfce/Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<knome> sorinello, yes, i've seen the bug...
<sorinello> so if the bug is still open, I guess there is no fix in the code
<knome> sorinello, you should follow what brainwash is telling/asking you to check
<knome> sorinello, in ubuntu, yes.
<brainwash> sorinello: mmh, strange logic
<knome> sorinello, the upstream status is "fix released" though
<knome> sorinello, so it should be fixed in upstream
<knome> sorinello, but as i said, maybe not in ubuntu yet
<sorinello> brainwash, I understand. I'm totally new to these, it seems I can't even read correctly launchpad :)
<knome> sorinello, that's why brainwash tried to ask you if the bug is fixed for you in the upstream version
<brainwash> sorinello: so, from now on you should post all the commands you are using to pull/build/install software
<sorinello> brainwash, I ran autogen.sh fomr the exo root dir, then I did "make". And I was expecting something like a deb ? again, I am totally new to this. If you have any documentation on how to get me up to speed, please give me
<sorinello> a deb which I would install with dpkg
<knome> sorinello, building with make *never* gives you a drb.
<knome> *deb
<knome> sorinello, it builds the code to a binary from the sources
<brainwash> build this -> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xdg/xdg-utils/
<sorinello> ok, I'll remember that. Also I'm very new with C, I have more like a Java background
<brainwash> forget about exo for a moment :)
<brainwash> xdg-open is part of xdg-utils
<brainwash> which is outdated in ubuntu (several years old)
<sorinello> any reason why they use such an old version in ubuntu ?
<brainwash> the new version seems to fix a lot issues
<brainwash> mainly because of debian which also has an old version
<brainwash> usually new packages are synced from debian
<sorinello> I see
<sorinello> interesting
<sorinello> at least for me, since this gives me some clues on how the whole Ubuntu echosystem works :)
<sorinello> *ecosystem
<brainwash> it can be a mess
<sorinello> so basically the flow is like this: I want to open a link from xchat, xchat runs xdg-open, then xdg-open should figure out that I have xfce, then xdg-open should call exo-open ?
<brainwash> yes
<sorinello> and a fix has been made in vanilla xdg (freedesktop) but has not been ported into ubuntu/xubuntu yet
<brainwash> yes
<sorinello> and you want me to get the v anilla xdg, build it locally and see if the new xdg works as expected
<brainwash> indeed
<sorinello> and the bug in xdg vanilla (freedesktop) has been reported in 2011, so this functionality is broken for 3+ years ?
<sorinello> broken in xubuntu
<sorinello> and xfce
<brainwash> I don't know, maybe it was not broken completely in the beginning.
<brainwash> sorinello: also, the ubuntu package is heavily patched (some upstream changes have been picked over time, even custom tweaks were added)
<sorinello> odd, because from pov of the functionality, this doesn't sound so complex.. it's not rocket science... I wonder what was t he rationale of these small patches
<knome> fix other bugs.
<sorinello> seems to be more an integration/armonization problem ...
<sorinello> *harmonization between packages, so they fit better in *buntu
<dkessel> welcome SwissBot
<knome> Unit193, does it offer free swiss chocolate samples?
<Noskcaj> ochosi, yes, only since 1.5 (maybe 1.5.1)
<Unit193> knome: No, it eats them.  It ate mine. :(
 * knome sighs
<SwissBot> Heya, dkessel.
<dkessel> good night, SwissBot!
<ochosi> evening all
<Unit193> Howdy.
<ochosi> Noskcaj: hm, can't reproduce. guess we need to find more people who can reproduce your problem, as i said, we haven't changed anything in the brightness key handling
<Noskcaj> strange. I'll look through some logs today and try and find the issue
<ochosi> ok, that'd be great, thanks!
<ochosi> i've heard of the issue before, but it seemed to be very isolated, singular cases, and i could never reproduce
<ochosi> some folks messed up their installs so the brightness stuff couldn't be handled because of wrong policies / missing rights for xfpm
<ali1234> brightness?
<ali1234> like display backlight brightness?
<ali1234> because i had an issue with that not working
<ali1234> actually...  still do
<ali1234> and i know it's not my install because over the past two weeks i put my xubuntu disk into four different laptops
<ali1234> and on all but my usual one the brightness control worked
<Unit193> bluesabre, knome: Also, I'll say this one more time.  You cannot direct factoid calls to links, it's an anti-spam measure.
<knome> Unit193, aha.
<knome> Unit193, i'll never remember that, so... keep on reminding. :)
<Unit193> knome: Or just silently laugh.
<knome> yep.
<knome> fair.
<bluesabre> Unit193: np, I'll continue just talking, then pinging
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hello!
<bluesabre> ochosi: can reproduce
<bluesabre> can change brightness with scroll wheel on panel plugin, not with hardware keys
<bluesabre> hi Unit193
<ali1234> bluesabre: do you see the brightness notification popup when using keys?
<bluesabre> ali1234: for keyboard brightness yes, screen brightness no
<ali1234> i don't have a backlit keyboard
<ali1234> what happens here is that i see the notification and the bar moves left/right, but the display brightness never changes
<ali1234> but only on this one laptop. same disk in a different laptop and it works
<bluesabre> yeah, different problem than here
<bluesabre> are you able to change your brightness with mouse wheel on the panel plugin?
<ali1234> i dunno, how do i get the panel plugin?
<ali1234> what does it look like?
<bluesabre> battery icon, labeled as the Power Manager Plugin in the applet list
<ali1234> i just tried directly setting the backlight brightness in /sys/class/backlight/ and that worked
<ali1234> doesn't seem to be installed
<bluesabre> what release are you running?
<ali1234> oh... 14.04
<bluesabre> it might have a different name on that release... ochosi could give you a better idea (since he keeps renaming it)
<ali1234> i usually run the dev ppas
<ali1234> not sure if this laptop has it or not, i don't use it very often
<bluesabre> I think 14.04 used indicator-power since the xfce4-power-manager was a bit unmaintained at the time
<ali1234> yes, i do have that
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce-4.12 has a newer power-manager release
<ochosi> thing is, some ppl report brightness keys not working with xfpm 1.4, some claim it only stopped working with 1.5
<ochosi> it always worked for me (i'm mostly using dell laptops though)
<ochosi> what i'm trying to say is that the reports so far were rather inconsistent
<bluesabre> worked for me with 1.4, I've had plenty of issues with upower in vivid though
<ochosi> right
<ali1234> yeah, my question still stands though: does the notification show up?
<ochosi> for me, the notification shows up, only with the buttons though (as intended)
<ali1234> i mean for the people for whom it does not work :)
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> for me, no notification, no worky
<ochosi> fyi, xfpm uses RandR to change the display brightness
<ochosi> alternatively, you can use the kernel's display brightness support directly
<ochosi> works better with some laptops, which is why the brightness key support is optional
<ochosi> bluesabre: have you tried disabling the brightness key support in xfpm yet?
<bluesabre> ochosi: nope, how?
<bluesabre> oh!
<bluesabre> ochosi: that setting was off, turned it on andddddd.
<bluesabre> nope
<bluesabre> still no work
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> D:
<ochosi> also, you can try to run "xfpm-power-backlight-helper --set-brightness $percentage" from cli
<bluesabre> cruel
<bluesabre> bluesabre@sean-asus-linux:~
<bluesabre> $ xfpm-power-backlight-helper --set-brightness 100
<bluesabre> This program can only be used by the root user
<bluesabre> bluesabre@sean-asus-linux:~
<bluesabre> $ sudo xfpm-power-backlight-helper --set-brightness 100
<bluesabre> [sudo] password for bluesabre:
<bluesabre> This program must only be run through pkexec
<bluesabre> bluesabre@sean-asus-linux:~
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> $ pkexec  xfpm-power-backlight-helper --set-brightness 100
<bluesabre> now its very dark
<ochosi> yeah, sorry, $percentage was misleading
<ochosi> the values are set by the hardware/driver
<ochosi> so it's not always up to 100
<ochosi> could be 1000 even
<ali1234> mine goes up to ~13000
<bluesabre> I think mine is in the 800s
<ochosi> depends on how many brightness steps you have
<bluesabre> how do I check that again?
<ochosi> odd though if that helper script works
<ali1234> look in /sys/class/backlight/*/brightness
<bluesabre> scrolling works
<bluesabre> 937
<ochosi> ok, lemme quickly check something
<ochosi> you definitely need polkit support
<ochosi> otherwise that script won't be called successfully from within xfpm
<bluesabre> yeah, np
<bluesabre> I just thought it was amusing
<ochosi> another option is that your brightness keys aren't recognized by the kernel as such
<ochosi> have you tried xev?
<ochosi> generally speaking, the plugin calls the same function as the media-key listener
<bluesabre> aha
<ochosi> and that function first tries to go through RandR (if the driver supports it) and if that doesn't work, it uses the helper script
<bluesabre> the kernel no longer supports my hardware keys
<ochosi> fun
<bluesabre> x.x
<ochosi> problem solved
<ochosi> well, "solved" :D
<ochosi> i meant: not my problem anymore ;)
<bluesabre> :p
<ochosi> Noskcaj: please check whether this is the case for you too ^
<ochosi> bluesabre: well at least now you can map that helper script to a fun keyboard shortcut of your choice
<ochosi> also, since that is out of the way, feel free to review my MR ;)
<ochosi> (not that i really want to put more effort into light-locker-settings, but it seemed like an easy and worthwhile improvement)
<bluesabre> oh right
<bluesabre> I'll take a look at that shortly
<ochosi> sure no rush
<ochosi> just didn't want it to rot
<bluesabre> also replied to your email
<ochosi> yes, read that
<ochosi> not sure what milestones mate is participating in, i'm not in touch with any of them
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: poke
<bluesabre> :)
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre, :)
<bluesabre> handy
<ochosi> that was quick :)
<flexiondotorg> I was just about to turn in. 
<flexiondotorg> What can I do you for?
<bluesabre> do you know the milestones ubuntu mate is participating in this cycle?
<flexiondotorg> You mean aplha and beta?
<bluesabre> yeah
<flexiondotorg> All of them. Although I've not communicated that to anyone.
<bluesabre> ok, cool
<ochosi> from what i know, you can only participate in the milestones you release yourself
<flexiondotorg> You cught me because I've just be releasing MATE 1.10 :)
<ochosi> so it means actively taking charge of that
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, I saw the email. Didn't understand what it was asking of me.
<ochosi> otherwise you can only participate in the milestones ubuntu does (i think they only do final beta)
<flexiondotorg> On my list of stuff to do.
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, They do.
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, So are Xubuntu wanting to do all milestones?
<bluesabre> we might line up with you guys this cycle since we have at least the toolkit and lightdm apps in common
<ochosi> personally, i don't see much benefit in doing alphas
<bluesabre> yeah
<flexiondotorg> I guess this is because elfy was a causality after the recent community debacle?
<bluesabre> at least the first one
<flexiondotorg> I'm happy to join up with you guys.
<bluesabre> yeah, ochosi and I are taking a more active role in the release decisions with elfy's absense
<ochosi> could start with b1
<flexiondotorg> Although I have no idea what I am signing up to.
<flexiondotorg> I'd like to do the alpha.
<bluesabre> we can help your team out as well to an extent since you're still fresh :)
<flexiondotorg> Was really sad to see elfy go. Some real arse hats out there.
<ochosi> i think Laney also said there
<ochosi> 'd be help
<flexiondotorg> Well, I'm totally up for it.
<bluesabre> but yeah, there's definitely a benefit to keeping our communication chains up :)
<flexiondotorg> Are Lubuntu interested?
<flexiondotorg> They are introducing LXQt this cycle. 
<flexiondotorg> Lots of change.
<flexiondotorg> I imagine they'd want to do the aplha.
<flexiondotorg> Have you discussed this with Kubuntu?
<bluesabre> it was just an initial discussion/passing thought
<flexiondotorg> OK. 
<flexiondotorg> Well nearly 01:00 here.
<flexiondotorg> So, I'm in.
<bluesabre> yeah, you're free to go
<flexiondotorg> But off to bed now :-)
<bluesabre> thanks for taking the time to chat with us
<flexiondotorg> No probs. Most welcome.
 * flexiondotorg Goes to sleep Z Z Z z z z . .
<bluesabre> ochosi: so there's that at least
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> personally, i'm not 100% sure we really get more testers by doing more milestones
<bluesabre> I agree that the first alpha at least is not particularly useful, since everything changes after that point
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> will you be around tomorrow at some point?
<ochosi> cause i really gotta hit the sack
<bluesabre> and with the revised package testing plan this cycle (run wily or PPAs and report), it should be okay
<bluesabre> I'll probably be around at least in the morning
<ochosi> ok
<bluesabre> and maybe the evening
<ochosi> let's talk in the morning (your morning)
<bluesabre> fridays are always up in the air
<bluesabre> alrighty
<ochosi> i'll look up the release schedule and maybe i'll drop elfy a few lines
<bluesabre> cool
<ochosi> who knows, maybe he gets back to me with his experiences in terms of how many testers contributed
<bluesabre> oh, we generally have all that info
<bluesabre> but yeah
<bluesabre> go to bed
<bluesabre> I need to undo my hour walk in the sun :)
<ochosi> yeah, let's talk when i'm less tired :)
<bluesabre> sure thing
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi
<ochosi> alrighty, nighty!
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-12
<Unit193> https://trello.com/c/kdll5hVC/10-create-proper-release-tags is fixed/done/etc, right?
<bluesabre> probably not
<bluesabre> lemme check
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> :]
<Unit193> \o/
<bluesabre> ooh the pulseaudio plugin lets you exceed 100%
 * bluesabre would love to see playback controls in there
<Unit193> Isn't there a bug for that.
<bluesabre> probably
<bluesabre> I also like the direction elementary is taking their sound indicator https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zxCog8_ekQs/VW5AnvP335I/AAAAAAAAHYM/lHrptHOhWVk/w420-h292-no/Screenshot%2Bfrom%2B2015-06-02%2B16%253A45%253A24.png
<Unit193> Eh, yes and no.
<ali1234> triangles :(
<Unit193> I do not like the silly little toggles, nor that which ali1234 pointed out, but the concept is good. :P
<ali1234> i already have all that stuff with indicator-sound, except for mic volume
<Unit193> But not xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin
<ali1234> fork indicator-sound and make it into a panel plugin :)
<Unit193> xfce4-soundmenu-plugin?
<ali1234> no, indicator-sound
<bluesabre> combine pulseaudio+soundmenu-plugins
<Unit193> Yes.
<bluesabre> without the array of panel buttons
<bluesabre> but it in the menu
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> *put
<ochosi> bluesabre: there were some talks with matias a while ago about combining the two plugins, but neither of us really had time to look at it in the end. thing is, putting the buttons in the menu isn't trivial, you basically need your own custom widget for that. that said, it can be borrowed from libide
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, but we've been stuffing sliders and large images and whatnot in the plugin menus lately anyway :)
<ochosi> yeah, mostly panel plugins though, so i think it's okay
<ochosi> i guess it wouldn't be *that* much work to pull in the custom widget from libido, then again, it doesn't seem that anyone really has the time to take on that task
<ochosi> which brings me to the next issue, milestones
<ochosi> (lemme know when you've read my email)
<bluesabre> just did
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> so personally, also looking at the specific dates, i won't be able to do much for a1+2
<ochosi> especially a2 is at an inconvenient time
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> so i'd say we can start with b1
<bluesabre> I'm going to agree with that
<ochosi> that might still mean that we have to do the work for that
<ochosi> we don't have problematic transitions ahead this cycle i think (and hope)
<ochosi> LO will hopefully go smoothly
<ochosi> despite the upgrade to 5.0
<ochosi> and within Xfce, there won't be much news
<bluesabre> yeah, that should be fine
<ochosi> for now, i'm not sure whether we'll manage to push in xfpm 1.6
<bluesabre> LO doesn't change particularly much, and only gets better
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> and it's well tested from within
<ochosi> there's little that makes it different in xubuntu than say in ubuntu
<ochosi> and even if the current LO icons dont improve much more, they're a nice improvement over the alternative/default icons and i'm ok with shipping LO that way
<bluesabre> mhm
<bluesabre> let me know when you're ready for an initial release there
<ochosi> other than the transition to gtk3.16, i'm not aware of dramatic changes
<ochosi> ok, will do
<bluesabre> we'll have (probably/hopefully) new catfish and menulibre which may include some larger changes
<bluesabre> but those are still minor
<bluesabre> should be smooth sailing to LTS
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> well the other thing we should continue to discuss is whether to opt-in for more CSD
<ochosi> to smoothen the transition until it might be unavoidable
<ochosi> i think theming wise there are more tweaks available which will make them look more consistent and integrated
<ochosi> the new min and max icons already help with that
<ochosi> but i can also remove some padding from CSD and add some padding to SSD
<bluesabre> maybe, but it might also be a non-issue... there's no requirement to use CSD and apps that do just work
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> that might be a good idea
<ochosi> yeah, file-roller is dead ugly atm though
<bluesabre> yes
<bluesabre> I've been regularly using the Xfce Default window borders
<bluesabre> they blend well with greybird and are resizable
<ochosi> and while simplescan looks ok, i personally don't see much benefit in having SSD there
<ochosi> you mean because of greybird's 1px border?
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> its too small on my laptop screen, and too unreachable with my scrollball mouse
<ochosi> knome: since you seem to be around, could you choke up the window-close svg you did for greybird so i can push that for the CSD?
<knome> not on desktop, but i'll try to find that today
<ochosi> ok, ty
<ochosi> bluesabre: ideally xfwm4 would at some point allow resizing using the window shadow
<ochosi> but i'm not sure olivier is motivated to work on stuff like that
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, I don't expect to see that in xfwm4...
<ochosi> well, especially since CSD already does it
<ochosi> and sort of "for free"
<ochosi> (although there are downsides, e.g. when taking screenshots of a single window, it always includes the shadows)
<ochosi> bluesabre: of all the things on the 15.10 roadmap, replacing xfdesktop in ubiquity seems like one of the things we should really get done
<bluesabre> ochosi: added feh to live session yesterday... just need to patch ubiquity now
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> sweet
<ochosi> didn't notice
<bluesabre> 22:18	--	Notice(SwissBot) -> #xubuntu-devel: ::xubuntu-seed:: Revision 986 @ http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.wily/revision/986 (by Sean Davis)
<ochosi> yeah, i guess i should subscribe to seed changes...
<bluesabre> that's here on xubuntu-devel now
<bluesabre> just add a highlight for swissbot
<ochosi> oh good
<ochosi> wrt LO icons, i'll do a first release when writer's main toolbars look ok
<ochosi> hopefully that won't be long, but depends a bit on whether knome also picks up his drawing stick again ;)
<knome> woot
 * knome hits ochosi's fingers with a "drawing stick"
<ochosi> ouch!
<knome> i have a question...
 * bluesabre watches and learns how to create icons
<knome> since we drop abiword and gnumeric for 15.10...
<knome> what's the support status for them/LO?
<knome> do we give user support both until the EOL of all releases with abiword and gnumeric?
<knome> i mean, not that there is any reason to not give it even after they are not used, but...
<bluesabre> so through 2017
<knome> essentially...
<bluesabre> I think the majority of our support has been (well, that's a bug that we can't fix)
<knome> yep
<bluesabre> "if you need an alternative, please install LibreOffice"
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> i guess regressions aren't likely, since nobody cares too much to push new versions to trusty
<bluesabre> yeah
<knome> i guess we should wait until the next release to see if we want to keep on shipping LO
<knome> if we want to, then we likely want to start advocating its use even on trusty if people end up in trouble with abiword and gnumeric
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> that's probably the way to go
<ochosi> yup, agreed
<bluesabre> !team | putting this out there again, please take a moment to add your general availability
<ubottu> putting this out there again, please take a moment to add your general availability: bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<bluesabre> http://doodle.com/vmzrybyw9r9929wt
<knome> ochosi, i'm sorry, but i don't think i have the svg you are looking for...
<knome> ochosi, are you sure it's not on a repository somewhere?
<ochosi> knome: don't think so
<knome> i mean i don't usually delete stuff that can be useful that isn't on a repository
<knome> it was the greybird xfwm close icon, right?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i looked and i only have the png
<knome> is it possible we just did the png?
<ochosi> could it be that there's no svg?
<ochosi> :D
<knome> that's completely possible
<knome> iirc, it was pixel pushing anyway
<ochosi> well in that case get to the drawing board and do a proper svg!!
<knome> hah!
<knome> you wish! :P
<knome> where are the rest of the greybird xfwm svgs
<ochosi> don't look at me, how would i know? :)
<knome> i thought you had them
<knome> because you did them
<ochosi> no frankly, i think for xfwm4 we never did much svg work
<knome> aha
<bluesabre> :(
<ochosi> even though it would have made some things easier, but i think at the time (yeeeeears ago) i started with png and stuck to it
<ochosi> too lazy
<bluesabre> nobody knows whats going on anymore :p
<ochosi> bluesabre: wrt the doodle my times are to be taken with a huge bag of salt
<bluesabre> ochosi: sure
<ochosi> my job is about to end and my times will be a lot less regular from here on
<ochosi> (and less calculable)
<bluesabre> this is mainly so I can schedule the next meeting
<ochosi> sure i know
<bluesabre> (maybe for next week)
<ochosi> bluesabre: so i'll reply to Laney's email saying that we're up for b1 onwards
<bluesabre> cool
<ochosi> i'll try not to automatically sign us up for doing b1
<ochosi> also, can someone please translate this for me? "I put myself down for nusakan (cdimage) pres butaning for A2 and B1."
<bluesabre> probably translates to "Please forward all questions and bug reports to Simon Steinbess... for A2 and B1"
<knome> ochosi, you happy with this? http://xubuntu.org/?page_id=3081&preview=true
<ochosi> knome: the padding at the top is a bit excessive
<knome> sigh..
<ochosi> yeah yeah, i know
<ochosi> still
<ochosi> you asked ;)
<knome> i don't even know where that comes from
<knome> but that wasn't the point...
<ochosi> and yes, i like it
<knome> ok, then i'll request some redirects and when they are done, push that in place
<ochosi> perfect, thanks!
<bluesabre> knome: I'm going to work on a post this weekend for finding/reporting bugs (ubuntu-bug, packages from PPA, etc)
<bluesabre> might copy the content from that to a new FAQ
<knome> nice
<knome> or you can just write it for xubuntu.org directly ;)
<bluesabre> maybe
<bluesabre> but my posts are image-heavy, and xubuntu.org posts are notoriously not
<bluesabre> "New release! No screenshots!"
<knome> hah
<knome> we now have all that sorted, so we can easily attach images
<knome> and it'll look good too
<ochosi> bluesabre: moar screenshots!
 * ochosi appoints bluesabre xubuntu's senior blog screenshot correspondent
<knome> ochosi, rt ticket filed, you're CC
<knome> ochosi, now i know where the padding comes from - the theme - it's in there for all pages - have to fix it later
<ochosi> okeydokey
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> time for work, bbl
<ochosi> alrighty, ttyl bluesabre 
<lderan> bluesabre: added the times i can do :)
<bluesabre> thanks lderan !
<knome> pleia2, now https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/static-assets is REALLY ready for pulling :)
<knome> huh, jquery isn't loading on xubuntu.org
<knome> so the mobile menu isn't working
<knome> ok, fixed temporarily by loading something else that always includes jquery
<lderan> \o/
<knome> and sent a RT ticket
<knome> ochosi, new content drop finalized, again positive points for IS
<knome> updated http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/ for a slightly more straightforward approach
<knome> !team | for organization purposes, i have moved the calendar from x.org/team-calendar to x.org/dev/calendar - please update your bookmarks!
<ubottu> for organization purposes, i have moved the calendar from x.org/team-calendar to x.org/dev/calendar - please update your bookmarks!: bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<knome> ochosi, so... what else did you want @ developer area again?
<Unit193> bluesabre: I'm not dating or married so I'm pretty availabile.  Oh wait you meant in another way.
<knome> haha.
<knome> nudge nudge wink wink
<holstein> *is* a wink as good as a nudge?
<SwissBot> feed xubuntu-artwork had 5 updates, showing the latest 3
<knome> pleia2, Unit193: think you have anything to add to http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-website-ssl ?
<knome> pleia2, Unit193: (or change); fwiw, i'm open for https as default too, but even the ubuntu website doens't seem to do that, so i don't know
<Unit193> Not sure if you're supposed to put a reason behind the request, or not.  Seems ubuntustudio.org doesn't precisely use hsts, but all the links are https.
<knome> reason why we want HTTPS?
<knome> well i don't have a strong reason.
<Unit193> Nah, just not sure how requests to IS usually go. :P
<knome> regarding x.org, they've lately gone  me: "we need this"  IS: "done"
<knome> props to them for that.
<Unit193> \o/
<knome> they handled *two* requests i filed *today* within a few *hours*
<Unit193> I'd like HSTS, but hey that's just me.  If it's not done properly it tends to mess stuff up though.
<knome> i was thinking that it would be a step in the right direction if we just enabled https now
<knome> and when that's done, we could reassess the situation and ask to make it the default at some point
<knome> from my point of view, there's no rush to get that done
<Unit193> Nah, not really.
<knome> so yeah, that's why i thought "just let's make it possible first"
<knome> and that's a much fairer request to begin with too
<knome> and doesn't mean we end up in a technical mess
<knome> Unit193, offhand, do you have further ideas for http://xubuntu.org/dev/ ?
<Unit193> knome: Is this for us or them?
<knome> mostly us, but it shouldn't be too scary-looking for them either
<knome> and anything can be for anybody, if people think it makes sense
<Unit193> Just thinking that we also use Sean's wiki, and at least some of use https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/xfce412.html there's also a few more external but related sources.
<knome> sure.
<knome> what i'm not sure about yet is how to separate stuff
<knome> eg. what should go into the wiki and what to x.org
<knome> currently, i want to keep as much developer-facing stuff in the wiki as possible
<knome> that doesn't mean we couldn't link stuff from x.org too
<Unit193> I like x.org, it's faster. :P
<knome> suuuure
<knome> but you know that's not the point
<Unit193> Speaking of which, either of the two other devs around?
<Unit193> knome: Yes, and I do get your point.  That's why that page is complicated.
<knome> i just slightly updated it
<knome> i think the "wily" (or "current cycle") box is open for anything that is useful right now
<knome> and that people need to relatively frequently access
<knome> and that is top-level enough that a link in a single team blueprint isn't enough
<knome> one option is to move the strategy document to x.org
<knome> but... meh
 * knome shrugs
<Unit193> That'd rather make sense to me.
<Unit193> However, you don't get the (terrible?) version control on it then.
<knome> wordpress does have revision history
<Unit193> Ah, ok.
<knome> though sure, you'd lose the history so far
<Unit193> bluesabre: xfdashy, for the extras ppa.  Follow development releases like last time? https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2015-June/034543.html
<knome> mmh, ppa's
<Unit193> Or I could do the fun trick of stable series for trusty, development for vivid and wily. :D
<Unit193> knome: They're easier, and currently we're wating on Debian for Ubuntu repos.
<knome> no here: http://xubuntu.org/dev/
<Unit193> The shimmer daily one. :3
<Unit193> Also, there's the Xubuntu daily too if you like that one.
<knome> i kind of say boo for https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/ppa, since i don't like the naming or the description
<knome> soo.. fix that and... :)
<Unit193> It needed fixed, someone else can fix it properly. (It's kind of fixed now.)
<knome> :P
<knome> bluesabreeeeeee
<Unit193> Checked the usage of extras just now.  So while xfdash is pretty much the highest currently, soundmenu and pulseaudio are high as well, but thunar-dropbox-plugin just plainly blows them out of the water for trusty with a whopping 800+ :3
<knome> heh
<knome> yeah, i can imagine people wanting to use that
<Unit193> https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=thunar-dropbox-plugin not as high, but not surprising.
<knome> oh yay
<knome> another RT ticket fixed for us today :D
<knome> pleia2, ^
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> Logan: Feeling upload-y?  ppa:unit193/staging or https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfce4-eyes-plugin_4.4.4-0ubuntu1.dsc:
<Unit193> Same for timeout-plugin, the ppa or https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfce4-time-out-plugin_1.0.2-0ubuntu1.dsc
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-13
<Unit193> xfce4-hamster-plugin updated in extras, pushed to lp git.
<Unit193> (Does anybody care?  Is anybody there? :P  I don't, I'm not.)
<knome> what did that do again anyway? :P
<Unit193> Some sort of time tracker stuff.  Who cares. :P
<Unit193> !info indicator-hamster
<knome> somebody likely does..
<ubottu> Package indicator-hamster does not exist in wily
<Unit193> knome: Yes, PPA shows a little usage, so I did update it.
<knome> ochosi, first things first with this thing: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-website-ssl (comments welcome)
<knome> Unit193, was there something you'd change with that then?
<Unit193> I did not think so, just asked a few questions.  Thanks, knome.
<knome> sure, np :)
<knome> when ochosi/pleia2 acks it, i'll forward it through then
<Unit193> I have no idea what it is I would add. :)
<knome> me neither
<Unit193> FWIW, https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+git/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin and https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+git/xfdashboard differ from the repos https://bitbucket.org/xubuntu so I left them (and am using the bb ones), but all others were removed (linked from https://wiki.smdavis.us/doku.php?id=development:packages)
<bluesabre> good morning folks
<bluesabre> Unit193: xfdashboard, sure
<Unit193> Hmm?
<Unit193> Ah.
<Unit193> xfdashboard 0.5.0 successfully uploaded to extras.
<Unit193> Dangit I need to contact micahg.
<Unit193> knome points out in #x that xubuntu-restricted-{addons,extras} pulls in gst0.10 and gst1.0.
<Unit193> Or, at least reminded me.
<Unit193> xfburn is the only thing IIRC and upstream's release fixed that.  We also dropped them in -desktop.
<Unit193> them=gst0.10.
<Unit193> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/wily/ubuntu-restricted-addons/wily/view/head:/xubuntu-restricted-addons-amd64
<Unit193> Hah, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/wily/ubuntu-restricted-addons/wily/view/head:/xubuntu-restricted-addons-i386
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-14
<Unit193> micahg: Not sure if you were going to snag them, or if one of us should.  But between your change to desktop and a reminder that xubuntu-restricted-* exist, gstreamer0.10 can be dropped from there too I'd think.
<micahg> ah, ok, cool
 * micahg will take a look in a bit
<micahg> also, the ISO seems oversized
<Unit193> Awesome, thanks.
<Unit193> Yeah, likely due to LO.
<micahg> no, I think it has to do with some of the desktop packages switching to python3
<Unit193> Ah I was wondering just recently what's holding our ISO on python2, bluesabre usually makes his compatible with both, or easily portable.
<micahg> I was going to look into that
<pleia2> knome: I added a couple questions to the end of the document for context/intent
<pleia2> knome: also, thanks re: distrowatch updates, however that came on your radar :)
<pleia2> now that the server static.x.o is on can talk to bzr, updating will be easier \o/ (can even put it in a cron job if we want)
<pleia2> on my Sunday I'll spend some time making sure everything is in bzr and repulling everything directly from bzr, unless there are objections
<pleia2> a .bzr directory will exist, but I don't think we care
<micahg> bluesabre: Unit193: I'm not so sure about updating the restricted addons, other non-xubuntu programs might need the libraries until the whole archive is migrated, do we care?
<Unit193> 0.10 is dead, and clementine looks like the biggest user.
<micahg> I agree conceptually, but it might result in a few more bug reports until the whole archive is migrated
<ochosi> evening all
<ochosi> hm, we still have python2 stuff?
<ochosi> micahg: do we already know what's pulling in python2?
<micahg> no idea, about to look
<micahg> apt-offline is one
<micahg> apt-xapian-index
<micahg> blueman
<ochosi> meh, blueman
<micahg> gconf
<ochosi> https://github.com/blueman-project/blueman/issues/19
<micahg> gnome-doc-utils
<ochosi> blueman gets python3 support with 2.0
<ochosi> (which has been released already)
<ochosi> (21 days ago, to be exact)
<micahg> it's in Debian
<micahg> Debian is still building with python2
<micahg> I guess I can merge and switch to python3, but it doesn't do us much good until the rest is migrated
<ochosi> ofc
<ochosi> i'm putting this list on the whiteboard, one sec
<ochosi> feel free to fill in more details where you see fit: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-w-development
<ochosi> seems like didrocks has started to work on gconf: https://code.launchpad.net/~didrocks/gconf/python3
<ochosi> should be fixed in wily already
<ochosi> (3 days ago)
<knome> pleia2, np; there was that person telling us that system requirements are "too hard to find" - he had wandered to our site via distrowatch...
<pleia2> knome: ah, I see the connection now :)
<knome> though that doesn't explain anything in his case - anyway, since i bumped into it...
 * pleia2 nods
 * ochosi tests a new music player (lollypop, has a few annoying depends though)
<knome> pleia2, btw, wrote replies on the pad (and added some context in the text itself)
<ochosi> knome, pleia2: i think the ssl discussion is up to the two of you, i don't know enough about it (in other words: i trust your judgement)
<knome> ochosi, yeah yeah, just wanted you to know what's happening :)
<ochosi> good .)
<pleia2> knome: oh thanks, I'll have a look
<pleia2> knome: oh, shall I social media our shiny new get involved page?
<knome> we could do that :)
<knome> let's draft a nice blurp
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> also, I put the 14M Edubuntu-Xubuntu 14.04 Quickstart Guide pdf from Computer Reach on static.x.o but didn't put it in bzr because I'm a bad person, should I, or would a 14M pdf in the repo ruin your life?
<knome> lol
<knome> oh btw
 * knome facepalms
<knome> did you look at the document?
<pleia2> it was too big to upload to wordpress
<pleia2> yeah, why?
<knome> you need to tell them to use our new logo.
<pleia2> oh, that
<knome> and i guess the new ubuntu logo
<knome> and new edubuntu logo
<pleia2> I did, but updating this isn't high on their priority list, and I've snagged them to help me with my non-profit
<knome> hahah!
<knome> what's their source format?
<pleia2> I don't know
<pleia2> probably something not awesome
<knome> if they're willing to share it, point them to send it to me, and i'll look for updating it
<knome> don't they have this available on their own website?
<pleia2> maybe in a few weeks, I need to stop asking them things :)
<pleia2> no, it's on dropbox
<knome> i'd imagine that would be a nice thing, somebody else doing them things :P
<knome> they just need to send me the source
<knome> and i'll return it to them modified with the new logos
<knome> well considering i can edit the source format
<knome> their website has the *old* logo too
<knome> i thikn that's snatched from the old *website*
<knome> and their website breaks if you stretch it around :(
<pleia2> websites, eh?
<knome> well, you *can* do it right...
<pleia2> alas, non-profit budgets
<knome> i know
<brainwash__> any opinions on bug 1459417 ?
<ubottu> bug 1459417 in xfce4 (Ubuntu) "the numeric pad should provide the regional separator" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1459417
<brainwash__> "On Microsoft Windows systems, this is properly handled."
<knome> i wonder if the locale is designed to hold that kind of information
<knome> and yeah, the xkbmaps could handle this
<knome> pleia2, so for the social media stuff:
<knome> pleia2, Our newly improved Get Involved page makes it even easier to start contributing and help Xubuntu!
<knome> just the starting point...
<pleia2> that's a good initial post :)
<knome> ok, want to change spelling or sth or shall i just tweet?
<pleia2> go for it, I'll FB and G+
<knome> tweeted
<pleia2> others done too
<knome> good good
<pleia2> knome: oh yeah, so should I add the pdf to the static bzr repo?
<knome> let's worry about that later
<pleia2> well, now that we have bzr ability on the server I was hoping to switch the static stuff over to the pulled in bzr repo rather than just uploading manually and adding the .pdf manually
<pleia2> haven't updated to latest static content changes since I was going to do it all at once
<pleia2> but I can wait if we want to worry about it later
<pleia2> lunch time with the husband now, bbiab
<knome> maybe you can just .bzrignore a directory
<knome> then you can keep it unversioned until we decide to add it
<knome> (if we decide to)
<Unit193> micahg: Oh hey ,since you seem to be around.  https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfce4-eyes-plugin_4.4.4-0ubuntu1.dsc - https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfce4-time-out-plugin_1.0.2-0ubuntu1.dsc or http://pad.lv/ppa/unit193/staging
<micahg> Unit193: I;m getting P: xfce4-time-out-plugin: copyright-with-old-dh-make-debian-copyright on the timeout package
<Unit193> Yeah it's the old copyright format.
<micahg> planning to fix at some point?
<Unit193> I had hoped to leave that for the next person, d/copyright files can be a major pain. :/
<Unit193> (cdbs has helped me learn to hate them.)
<Unit193> If it's needed, I could of course.
<micahg> hrm, well, eventually, would be good for getting into Debian
<micahg> I can upload without it for now
<Unit193> Nothing in wnpp for this one, for the other there's Debian #407380.
<ubottu> Debian bug 407380 in wnpp "RFP: xfce4-eyes-plugin -- eyes plugin for Xfce panel" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/407380
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-13
<Noskcaj> Unit193, do you happen to know the command for regenerating mousepad's -ui.h files from the glade files?
<Unit193> Pretty sure it's not as simple as autoreconf.
<Unit193> Yey, might finally get rid of gnome-user-guide!
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: no reason in particular, when I last went to upload it, they had moved from svn to git, and I got confused by the new processes
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: you're more than welcome to upload to debian if you are able, or I will work on that this week
<flocculant> I successfully got rid of everything on saturday 
<bluesabre> good morning Unit193 and flocculant 
<flocculant> wish I had some backups ...
<Unit193> Howdy.
<flocculant> hi bluesabre Unit193 :)
<Unit193> flocculant: Jumped to yakkety on one real host.
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: probably --enable-maintainer-mode
<Unit193> Figured that'd be it.
<bluesabre> that
<bluesabre> 's the trick in parole, anywau
<bluesabre> y
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> typing
<bluesabre> :\
<flocculant> anyone got a clue where the iso build logs are? 
<flocculant> lost all my bookmarks
<bluesabre> wow
<bluesabre> flocculant: you really really lost everything
<flocculant> I had to lose the partition table first ... 
<flocculant> bluesabre, yup - total fail :D
<flocculant> evening
<ran> hi. in xubuntu 16.04 there is a problem with japanese letters. on many programs and the title bar they are "pushed down" a little, when they needs to be on center. (sorry about my english).
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-14
<flocculant> bluesabre unit<tab> - is there anything new that testing needs to worry about yet? 
<flocculant> I vaguely know about the gtk3 stuff in ppa, but afaik that's not something people can really look at yet
<flocculant> PaulW2U: replied and cc'd release team in to it 
<flocculant> PaulW2U: that's the way do to do it - ask on -release :)
<flocculant> we read things - but *we* can't always fix things - like the xfce/intel/lock bug
<flocculant> personally I wish that we were more blunt about not releasing
<flocculant> given that bug perhaps we shouldn't have done so
<flocculant> maybe that would make more noise - Xubuntu refuses to release LTS due to intel bug
<PaulW2U> :)
<PaulW2U> my xubuntu install is now on a non-Intel machine
<flocculant> my installs are not intel 
<flocculant> hard one - and if QA had refused, I bet we would have released anyway
<PaulW2U> A a tester I get quite frustrated when I see little feedback from the main Ubuntu flavour hence my initial email
<PaulW2U> I know how Xubuntu and Lubuntu work but ubuntu mystifies me at times :)
<flocculant> hard one :)
<flocculant> I think that mostly that's done with autotesting - not real people working in the OS
<flocculant> davmor2 might be able to shine a light on that - might have EOD'd too 
<PaulW2U> Yes, but Ubuntu 16.04 was still released with some awful bugs that fortunately were fix before the .1 release.
<PaulW2U> I see that bug 1568604 now has a heat of 980 and affects 199 people :(
<ubottu> bug 1568604 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor lost when unlocking with Intel graphics" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1568604
<PaulW2U> at least the duplicate reports have slowed down. bye for now. off to watch tv.
<davmor2> meh
<davmor2> intel drivers would be the kernel and nothing to do with the desktop at all, so the x team and kernel team would be the best places to start
<flocculant> davmor2: always hard to tell where 
<flocculant> davmor2: then again where the hell are the x and kernel teams :p
<davmor2> flocculant: #ubuntu-kernel
<davmor2> flocculant: they are hidden really well ;)
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> it is holiday week :p
<flocculant> davmor2: all that said it *might* be a lock issue with not-gnome
<flocculant> or kde
<flocculant> whichever way you look it at it - not a nice bug 
<flocculant> might be that x team and https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94677 is the way to do it, but I know so little about the intricacies I get lost
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 94677 in Driver/intel "xorg-server 1.18.2: missing mouse pointer when coming back from screen lock" [Normal,New]
<flocculant> off to watch Iceland make Ronaldo look silly now :)
<pavlushka> lol
<flocculant> just a really simple point here
<flocculant> I lost all my bookmarks - in fact lost everything 
<flocculant> I can not find a simple link anywhere in Xubuntu land to add something to meeting agenda
<flocculant> and if I can't find that - do we hide that deliberately?
<pleia2> can get to it via wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu
<flocculant> should be simple to see pleia2 
<pleia2> which is pretty standard for most projects in Ubuntu, go to wiki page, find meeting info there
<flocculant> pleia2: I did normal thing with NO history - looked for Xubuntu
<pleia2> where do you suggest we put it?
<flocculant> found xubuntu.orgh
<flocculant> .org
<flocculant> no meeting there
<pleia2> xubuntu.org is our user facing website, we've put all the dev stuff on the wikis
<flocculant> pleia2: meetings are community not dev
<pleia2> indeed, which makes it tricky
<flocculant> not really :)
<flocculant> should be on x.org :)
<pleia2> then can you suggest a place on x.org for it?
<pleia2> that's what I'm asking
<flocculant> pleia2: thinking :)
<pleia2> see, tricky
<pleia2> I've searched the website some, maybe on the Contact page? but I'm not sure
<flocculant> maybe Contact page?
<flocculant> heh - similar thinking there :)
<pleia2> is that where you looked when you were trying to find it just now?
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> first place I looked
<pleia2> ok, can you submit a bug so knome can look at it when he's home?
<flocculant> pleia2: yea ofc - xubuntu-website? 
<pleia2> yep
<flocculant> k - cool :)
<pleia2> thanks
<flocculant> pleia2: also ofc - atm - stupid position for a wiki - how could Bert add something ... 
<pleia2> who is Bert?
<flocculant> if that goes on for much longer - that's a real problem for *buntu
<pleia2> there's a team that you can ask popey to add people to, discussion is ongoing on the ubuntu-doc list
<pleia2> ~ubuntu-wiki-editors
<pleia2> can't request to join (flood of spam joins), but you can ask popey directly
<flocculant> bert is just this guy who realise there's a major issue with a wiki, can't change it, then just wanders off bad mouthing *buntu
<pleia2> yeah, you want the ubuntu-doc list for this discussion
<pleia2> there's nothing I can do about it, but folks are talking about it there
<flocculant> pleia2: I can edit - Bert can't, now thinks Ubuntu is what they say it is :(
<pleia2> I understand, but telling me doesn't help
<pleia2> it's a very clear and known problem that's being discussed on the doc list
<flocculant> pleia2: right - not going there - been down that street before
<pleia2> x_x
<flocculant> discussing is great - IS doidn't care about spam till it hurt them 
<pleia2> anyway, back to work for me
<flocculant> you can directly quote me to IS 
<pleia2> *I* can't continue to be the one responsible for this
<flocculant> pleia2: yea - sorry xxx
<pleia2> the group exists that you can ask popey to add people to, the doc team is sorting out joining criteria to make this easier
<bluesabre> flocculant: nothing from me at this time
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-12
<bluesabre> Unit193: oh goodie :D
<bluesabre> saw this output, not sure if its an issue
<bluesabre>  /usr/bin/ld: warning: libxfconf-0.so.2, needed by /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/6/../../../x86_64-linux-gnu/libxfce4kbd-private-3.so, may conflict with libxfconf-0.so.3
<Unit193> bluesabre: ...You're long gone, aye?
<Unit193> bluesabre: I seem to not have permissions to re-activate xfce4-gtk3, if you'll kindly do that ASAP, that'd be great!  (I have permissions to deactivate, but not activate...This makes sense.)
<bluesabre> Unit193: I think it has to be a LP admin, I can't see it now
<Unit193> bluesabre: Should be just https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+activate-ppa
<ochosi> Unit193: maybe i can help? what do you need exactly?
<ochosi> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce-gtk3 ?
<Unit193> ochosi: yes you can, and xfce4-gtk3, yeah.
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> humm, xfce4-gtk3
<ochosi> better? https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3
<Unit193> Thanks muchly!
<Unit193> Also, I thought xfconf broke xfce4-settings?  floc said they worked fine, and I tried them a bit without xfsettingsd crashing too. :3
<ochosi> no, xfconf crashes the panel
<ochosi> and i think something else
<ochosi> didn't think it was settings
<Unit193> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2017-June/031959.html
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> right
<Unit193> I presume we wanted xfconf and all the new toys in there though.
<ochosi> yeah, absolutely
<ochosi> havoc and breakage!
<Unit193> \o/
 * knome imagines that in the same tone as "strength and honor" in the movie gladiator
<ochosi> :D
<Unit193> xfwm4 is less broken too.
<Unit193> Right, time to spam myself again with builds.
<ochosi> :)
<Unit193> flocculant: OK, everything is back to normal.
<bluesabre> Unit193: definitely not able to access the PPA
<Unit193> bluesabre: ochosi fixed it.  Also, I re-did your -settings package a bit, hope you don't mind (enabled libinput too)
<bluesabre> Unit193: link?
<bluesabre> and np
<bluesabre> and thanks
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3/+sourcepub/7893459/+listing-archive-extra
<Unit193> xfsettingsd seems to somehow work with xfconf.
<bluesabre> Unit193: yeah, I tried patching it or fixing it, but it seems the only issue is with touchpad-specific settings
<bluesabre> for some reason G_TYPE_PTR_ARRAY != G_TYPE_PTR_ARRAY :\
<Unit193> Oooooh, I see.
<ochosi> https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/releases/tag/v3.22.4
<bluesabre> ochosi: nice
<ochosi> enough nice things there to warrant a release
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> if only i had the time to properly maintain the elementary-xfce icon theme and pull in updates from upstream... :/
<bluesabre> any interesting updates there?
<ochosi> improvements for the gtk3 panel
<ochosi> and basic gnome shell support
<ochosi> and a bugfix that will hopefully be enjoyable to flocculant 
<bluesabre> oh, I meant with elementary upstream icons
<bluesabre> your changelog was nice and concise :)
<bluesabre> chromium is gtk3 now, no changes needed, looks fine with greybird
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> ah right, well they push tons of updates all the time
<ochosi> hard to filter out the "great ones"
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> i guess i would find a lot if i were to start looking
<ochosi> and they became a bit better with providing all the sizes
<ochosi> but we still carry a lot more sizes than them
<ochosi> so there is very often much more work involved than just pulling in
<bluesabre> yeah
<Unit193> Speaking of, considered the split out, bluesabre?
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r513 Make xfce4-panel's Gtk3 tasklist style resemble Gtk2... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r514 Also update the non-flat look of xfce4-panel's tasklist... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r515 Fix notebook 2px border (Issue #184)... (by Guillaume Castagnino)
<bluesabre> Unit193: definitely
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-13
<flocculant> Unit193: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/ubuntu/xfce-gtk3 ?  This page does not exist, or you may not have permission to see it. 
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3
<Unit193> (Back to how it was.)
<flocculant> not there for me 
<Unit193> I just copied your link, my bad: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3/
<flocculant> why did we change the url for it?
<Unit193> That's back to how it used to be, I kind of goofed since I had permissions to deactivate but not re-activate...It's weird..  But that's back to how it was, had to wait for an admin to fix it.
<flocculant> well it must be back to how it was before I used it ever then - cos the link I posted is what it was before :)
<flocculant> anyway - thanks :)
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/ is a different one.
<Unit193> Sure thing, hopefully it's good now.  Also, -settings has touchpad problems but otherwise is "safe"
<flocculant> oh ...
<flocculant> http://i.imgur.com/DMXFgmE.png
<Unit193> Eh, yeeeah... garcon wasn't done right before.  This is as pulled from Debian.
<Unit193> I likely should have made that smooth.
<flocculant> broken here now :)
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> Need help?
<flocculant> not now - shouldn't have done this this early :D
<Unit193> 2am, yeeeah..
<flocculant> I'll worry about it later on this afternoon
<flocculant> well ppa-purge won't purge it 
<Unit193> flocculant: 1. Downgrade garcon to repo versions.  2. Force purge it and then apt-get install -f   either will do.
<flocculant> yea I did 1 already - wasn't really with it, the 1 cylinder that was firing was missing a spark plug :D
<flocculant> finished cleaning that up - had to repo version xfdesktop4/data and then I could lose the ppa :p
<flocculant> Unit193: I've disabled gtk3 ppa for the moment - when it works again perhaps let me know :)
<Unit193> flocculant: Hrm, just updated now..
<flocculant> Unit193: I'll look in the morning then 
<flocculant> thanks :)
<Unit193> It's just not exactly smooth.
<flocculant> well - I don't mind rough - it's broken I'll miss :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r516 Install gnome-shell theme via the Makefile... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r517 Update readme to reflect gnome-shell theme... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-14
<flocculant> knome: did you get anywhere talking to infinity?
<flocculant> Unit193: so ppa is fine in vm - dies here \o/
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> flocculant: apt-get install libgarcon-1-0=0.4.0-2 libgarcon-common=0.4.0-2 && apt full-upgrade
<flocculant> later - currently it's ppapurged ;)
<knome> flocculant, nope
<knome> i mean i did - he didn't
<knome> bbl
<flocculant> Unit193: dpkg: error processing archive ... trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgarcon-gtk3-1.so.0.0.0', which is also in package libgarcon-2-0 0.5.0-0ppa1+gtk3~17.10
<flocculant> giving up - when the ppa actually works I'll add it again
<jbicha> hi, I would like to make xubuntu-restricted-addons a transitional package since the only difference is that ubuntu-restricted-addons recommends the extra Chromium codecs
<bluesabre> jbicha: this seems fine to go ahead and do
<jbicha> thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-15
<bluesabre> morning all
<bluesabre> Unit193: got a question that I bet you have an answer for
<Unit193> Oh no. :3
<bluesabre> is there a command to search for a file inside of packages (installed or otherwise)?
<Unit193> apt-file find foo.pc
<bluesabre> thanks!
<Unit193> Sure thing, and in newer versions the cache stays up to date directly via apt.
<bluesabre> handy
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-16
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-xkb-plugin 0.8.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-xkb-plugin-0-8-0-released-tp49414.html (by Viktor Odintsev)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-17
<Unit193> bluesabre: Xfce 13653
<Unit193> :3
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 13653 in General "Check for other desktop managers" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13653
<bluesabre> Unit193: looks good to me
<Unit193> The other one is very Ubuntu specific.
<Unit193> bluesabre: What's this in parole?
<Unit193> -include /usr/share/dpkg/architecture.mk
<Unit193> +#include /usr/share/dpkg/architecture.mk
<bluesabre> Unit193: dunno, I didn't put it there (or if I did, by somebody else's suggestion)
<Unit193> Not documented, so dropping.  Presuming the build passes.
<Unit193> https://sigma.unit193.net//source/parole_0.9.2-0ubuntu1.dsc got bored of waiting. :P
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh my, does it fix anything in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/parole ?
<bluesabre> I think so
<bluesabre> One sec
<Unit193> If you want to list them, you can grab the dsc and flip names if you'd like.
<bluesabre> Unit193: I think this is the only one from that list, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/parole/+bug/1681886
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1681886 in parole (Ubuntu) "Parole clears global history" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Unit193> OK, thanks.
<bluesabre> np
<bluesabre> working on documenting exo
<bluesabre> gkt-doc is fun...
<Unit193> Hah, I bet...Nicer when stuff is auto-generated.
<Unit193> OK, well if there's nothing else, off it goes!
<eric_the_idiot> if you add the TESTS_ENVIRONMENT stuff from https://git.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/diff/docs/Makefile.am?id=a9c88f86e9f8384fb441758c853792a66e5fead1 you'll be fixing gtk-doc warnings for days! :)
<Unit193> I'm just happy about the minimal delta to Debian!  http://paste.openstack.org/show/AkQb7ltcsKEAWgK6c0Ua
<bluesabre> eric_the_idiot: I think I'll avoid that then :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: nice work!
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hey, you fixed the bugs!
<bluesabre> "git grep" is my new favorite tool
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/parole/0.9.2-0ubuntu1
<bluesabre> Unit193: much appreciated :)
<bluesabre> only a few more things to fix with the exo docs, will wrap that up tomorrow :)
<bluesabre> night all
<flocculant> bluesabre: re 'Recent Documents' - couple of comments - not sure if the first's a bug or expected, 2nd is a usability thing probably
<flocculant> 1 - documents opened as root don't show in th elist
<flocculant> 2 - should media even get listed there? imagine someone editing a few docs and then listening to loads of music - music fills up the list, of course you could set plugin to show 1000's of entries ;)
<bluesabre> flocculant: root documents would show in the root user... I think?
<bluesabre> flocculant: "Recent Documents" as listed in a plugin should probably filter out media files
<flocculant> bluesabre: aah yes - that makes more sense for root docs. As far as second goes I'll chech it's not just local and if not report against the plugin
<Unit193> akxwi-dave: IIRC, you asked about parole in Artful.  Boop.
<Unit193> !info parole artful
<ubottu> parole (source: parole): media player based on GStreamer framework. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.9.2-0ubuntu1 (artful), package size 344 kB, installed size 1905 kB
<ochosi> Unit193: do we have 0.9.2 in a ppa for ZZ too?
<Unit193> We don't.
<Unit193> ochosi: If you want to try it yourself, I did though.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-18
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.11.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-11-3-released-tp49423.html (by Sean Davis-6)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r518 Improve padding/border in xfce4-panel's window buttons... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-11
<flocculant> knome: docs are out of date re ppa's
<flocculant> s/those docs
<nan0s7> Howdy
<knome> flocculant, right... wasn't it Unit193 who was supposed to set the autopull up? :P
<knome> fun, unixstickers.com stopped all xubuntu products
<Unit193> It's up.
<Unit193> Too bad the index is the only one that uses REVNO...
<knome> :P
<Unit193> https://unit193.net/xubuntu/docs/
<flocculant> knome Unit193 - sorry ...  when I said docs - I meant the ones I would be likely to read - the cont ones are out of date re ppa's :p
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/paDWOU4rchdQB8oPfcDj maybe I should commit one of those..
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-12
<flocculant> bluesabre: so I tried to follow your git thing for a doc change - got auth fail the first way, then similar for the push to a branch thing
<bluesabre> flocculant: very strange, it even worked for slickymaster :) Unit193, don't suppose you can help troubleshoot?
<Unit193> cat .git/config, see what's configured.
<Unit193> I'll have to see what 'the first way' is though, I don't suppose it's ~/.ssh/config having LP?
<bluesabre> Unit193: https://wiki.xubuntu.org/devel/git#setting_up_git
<flocculant> bluesabre Unit193 - sorted it :)
<flocculant> it did fail the first way, but wouldn't have if I'd not had git+ssh://USER@git.launchpad.net/ in git config, with flocculant it let me push
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: Change dev page PPA references @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/commit/?id=fb5a531d6711f9967b595649569752ec932385d5 (by Kevin)
<knome> pleia2, fyi, updated https://xubuntu.org/products/ to drop unixstickers from there as they do not offer any xubuntu merch any more
<pleia2> thank you
<pleia2> I had hoped stickermule buying unixstickers would be a good thing, but :(
<pleia2> they just gutted their inventory and made it a splash page
<knome> yeah
<pleia2> hm, that makes this remaining cache of xubuntu stickers I have here extra special
<knome> haha
<pleia2> :D
<knome> i guess...
<Unit193> unit193@Sigma:~$  rm -rf bugz  heh, if only fixing them was so easy.
<knome> (:
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-13
<pleia2> I'll social media the new hellotux t-shirts
 * genii 's ears perk up for a moment at the mention of Tux t-shirts
<knome> pleia2, thanks for getting back to gabor :)
<flocculant> knome: I assumed it wasn't intended to have the artwork stuff bp cleared by that random person - if it was I'll remove everything again :p
<knome> nope :P
<knome> thanks for fixing
<flocculant> np :)
<flocculant> willem: I have caught up :p
<willem> flocculant, great. I reckon there's four more to check now.
<willem> won't be doing a lot this week, I'm afraid.
 * flocculant thinks willem has done a whole lot in a very short time - so shouldn't worry at all about anything like that ;)
<willem> well, fortunately it's a riveting job... ;-)
<flocculant> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-14
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 1.8.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-1-8-1-released-tp51191.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-15
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/18.04.14.1 might be important.
<Unit193> (Also, did do thunar: https://salsa.debian.org/xfce-team/desktop/thunar/compare/bec6e899...69c28638 it's just not here yet.)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-16
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4util 4.13.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4util-4-13-2-released-tp51213.html (by Romain Bouvier)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfdesktop 4.13.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfdesktop-4-13-2-released-tp51216.html (by Romain Bouvier)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-17
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.12.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-12-1-released-tp51223.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> hey foutrelis, I'm a xubuntu dev :D
<foutrelis> bluesabre: ohai -- just wanted to ping someone about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunar/+bug/1762595
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1762595 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Thunar incorrectly thinks USB storage device hasn't finished ejecting" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<foutrelis> it's a bug in gvfs with an one-line patch :P
<bluesabre> Yeah, need to get that one taken care of
<foutrelis> fixes an annoying problem with ejecting usb sticks and stuff on thunar ._.
<bluesabre> Going to start that process today
<foutrelis> bluesabre: nice, cheers
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-settings 4.13.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-settings-4-13-3-released-tp51225.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> SwissBot is on top of it today :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh good, glad you're the Xubuntu dev that gets to deal with that.  And as always, thanks for the new releases and work for me. :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: :D
<flocculant> afternoon Unit193 bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hiya flocculant 
<flocculant> bluesabre: that thunar bug was pita for me :p
<pleia2> dev server needs a reboot, so unless there are objections, I'll do that momentarily
<pleia2> (also renewed our ssl certs)
<pleia2> all done
<pleia2> should probably upgrade to bionic at some point, but not today ;)
<Unit193> pleia2: Well it's not offered until the first point release, so arguably there's nothing to upgrade to, right? :3
<pleia2> you still *can* but yes, that's one of the reasons it's not today
<Unit193> (I upgraded a little bit ago, yep!)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-10
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-stopwatch-plugin 0.3.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-stopwatch-plugin-0-3-1-released-tp54052.html (by Natanael Copa-5)
<flocculant> bluesabre: keeping up the tradition of finding weird bugs, I give you bug 1832259
<ubottu> bug 1832259 in parole (Ubuntu) "Parole fails to clear all recent items initially" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1832259
<flocculant> just so people don't think I've gone completely :)
<krytarik> Bugger.. :P
<flocculant> :D
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-11
<bluesabre> flocculant: one of your classic bugs :)
<Unit193> Don't sync libxfce4util.
<bluesabre> Unit193: oh?
<Unit193> Not unless you want to lose the Ubuntu translation domain in several desktop files. :P
<bluesabre> :o
<Unit193> (It's in git, we'll be able to sync eventually)
<flocculant> bluesabre: :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: did you want the bug on bugzilla?
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-12
<andrzejr> Hi, recently I am having many out-of-memory freezes on xubuntu. It is not a new issue but it got significantly worse over the years, perhaps because of my usage patterns, perhaps because of some changes in the system.
<andrzejr> There is a discussion about it on OSNews: https://www.osnews.com/story/130117/kde-usability-and-productivity-are-we-there-yet/ (nothing to do with KDE)
<andrzejr> I was wondering if Xubuntu could assign certain user processes (xfwm4, xfce4-panel, xfce4-taskmanager, xfce4-terminal, Xorg(?), shell, ps, kill) to a different class of processes with slightly more available memory to prevent thrashing.
<andrzejr> A bit like this: https://www.gen.cam.ac.uk/local/it/projects/ubuntu-cgroups-and-trying-to-stop-users-making-a-system-unusable but this solution predates systemd, which also uses cgroup.
<brainwash> andrzejr: I don't quite see why this should be limited to xubuntu
<andrzejr> brainwash, it isn't.
<andrzejr> But cgroup settings could be distribution specific. At least in theory, I don't know how this looks like in systemd.
<brainwash> sounds like some research is needed :)
<brainwash> so, it is unlikely that xubuntu will offer some custom solution, but adapt whatever is out there (upstream)
<bluesabre> andrzejr: we could potentially do something like that, if you want to dig further for how we can implement it. Small team, and all that. :-)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-13
<guiverc> fyi:  i've had issues with 19.10 daily (two laptops, media checks okay) connecting to wifi WPA2 - security options are only WEP passphrase or WEP key  (my security is WPA2)
<Unit193> ...As any sane person would use, indeed. 0_o
<guiverc> i've got it connected now (2nd netbook; sony vaio) as I did with other older thinkpad, on reboot it showed WPA2 as a choice on initial boot..  i couldn't reliably reproduce! so pointless :(
<guiverc> everything was perfect on x201  :)  (third laptop)
<flocculant> it starts - had to muck about with updates today - as the chromium browser is only a snap now
<flocculant> guiverc: you thought about being more involved with qa for Xubuntu? they definitely need someone cos the last person had to leave
<guiverc> flocculant, would love to help, you [xubuntu] can call on me anytime you need/want anything, testing or anything if in my skill (rather low) level; but I do same with lubuntu so callings at release time may be beyond what I could deliver/do
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-screensaver 0.1.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-screensaver-0-1-5-released-tp54077.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<Unit193> Notit
<Unit193> https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/xsecurelock_1.4.0-1.html well that's interesting.
<bluesabre> Unit193: indeed
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-14
<Unit193> Wonder why Google is getting into screenlockers.
<bluesabre> Might be related to their adding Linux applications to Chrome OS
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.12.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-12-6-released-tp54115.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<ochosi> Unit193: indeed, quite interesting
<bluesabre> !team | Reminder, Xubuntu Community Meeting tonight at 22:00 UTC, hope to see at least a few of you there
<ubottu> Reminder, Xubuntu Community Meeting tonight at 22:00 UTC, hope to see at least a few of you there: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<knome> i will *try* :)
<Unit193> I'll be here unless I'm not.
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Improving snap appearance in Xubuntu, https://twitter.com/m_wimpress/status/1139376489445486594 (something I'll be looking at this weekend)
<bluesabre> evening all
<bluesabre> !team | Xubuntu Community Meeting in 30 minutes :)
<ubottu> Xubuntu Community Meeting in 30 minutes :): team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<knome> bluesabre, i'm kind of here..
<bluesabre> knome: yay!
<bluesabre> Anybody else nearby?
<bluesabre> #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jun 14 22:00:27 2019 UTC.  The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<bluesabre> Here we go
<bluesabre> #chair knome
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre knome
 * bluesabre hopes other people are around
<Unit193> I'll be a bit, sorry.
<bluesabre> Unit193: np, long bit, short bit?
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: don't suppose you're around?
<pleia2> oh, hello
<bluesabre> Might be a quick meeting :D
<bluesabre> woohoo!
<bluesabre> I'll wait just a bit longer (putting notes together anyway)
<Eickmeyer> I'm around.
<bluesabre> Nice
 * Eickmeyer totally didn't mark his calendar
<knome> calendar? what's that? ;)
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Guess we'll go ahead
<bluesabre> #topic Open action items
<bluesabre> The last meeting was quite a while ago, and all the action items were done.
<pleia2> that's one way to do it
<bluesabre> Oh,  agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<bluesabre> #topic Updates and announcements
<bluesabre> #info Xfce 4.14 to be released August 11, 2019 (in time for Eoan)
<bluesabre> #info flocculant (Kev) has left the position of QA lead / Xubuntu Council (thanks for all the years of help)
<knome> that's fantastic news.
<knome> ...the xfce release, that is
<bluesabre> #info ochosi (Simon) has filled the remaining Xubuntu Council position following a team vote
<bluesabre> knome: indeed
<bluesabre> Everybody should be pumped for Xfce 4.14 :)
 * Eickmeyer gives a woot woot
<bluesabre> #info jjfrv8 (Jack) has officially left the Xubuntu Team (thanks for all the help, take care!)
<bluesabre> Any other announcements?
<bluesabre> Moving on... :-)
<bluesabre> #topic Discussion
<bluesabre> #subtopic Replacing Light Locker with Xfce Screensaver
<bluesabre> This is something that we discussed for Disco, but we didn't quite make it to.
<bluesabre> I think the screensaver is now in a position to replace light-locker... so unless there are any objections, I think we can move forward with this.
<bluesabre> Should we send this to a vote, or move it along?
<Eickmeyer> This is something I'm all for doing for Studio. Light Locker and xscreensaver have been virtually unusable.
<pleia2> sounds fine to me
<knome> if it's indeed in a stable enough state, then sure, let's go for it
<knome> maybe it gets more love because it's now named like a serious xfce component ;)
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Then we'll do just that.
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to replace light-locker with xfce4-screensaver in eoan
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to replace light-locker with xfce4-screensaver in eoan
<bluesabre> #subtopic Including additional keyboard shortcuts common to other desktops / OSes
<bluesabre> This is something I'm interested in doing to ease new users or cross-desktop users into Xubuntu
<bluesabre> A couple examples that seem pretty ubiquitous
<bluesabre> - Super+L to lock the screen
<knome> what kind of scope are we talking about?
<bluesabre> - Super+D to show the desktop
<bluesabre> desktop environment scope, largely
<bluesabre> We improved the per-application scope in disco
<Eickmeyer> That's a tricky one, especially when it comes to invoking whisker with Super alone, which I realize isn't the default.
<knome> sure, that makes sense and isn't completely different what we do now
<Eickmeyer> But people expect it.
<bluesabre> Yeah, and we can't currently do since we have other Super+ shortcuts
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
<bluesabre> (due to Xfce limitations)
<Eickmeyer> It's too bad it's not evoked on keyup.
<Eickmeyer> er, invoked. :P
<Spass> Super+Space would be pretty good too IMHO, like in elementary OS
<Eickmeyer> That's not a bad idea.
<Spass> And Super+L and Super+D would be great additions, also IMHO :)
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> I'm guessing this is one that would likely warrant a team vote, but it's also pretty painless to at least swap in the D and L shortcuts
<bluesabre> Spass: what's Super+Space do in elementary? App launcher?
<knome> super+D/L are probably something we can just drop in, the menu shortcut thing is probably a bit too "core" for that
<Spass> Yes, iirc, so it would be good for a Whisker Menu
<pleia2> if it doesn't clobber any existing defaults, I don't see this as disruptive
<bluesabre> Yeah, pretty sure it does not
<pleia2> makes sense to me then :)
<knome> i'd personally avoid super+space because it just feels too frustrating/wrong (compared to just super) and i don't want to frustrate our users
<bluesabre> And Super+Space is easily more reachable than Super+Esc
<bluesabre> knome: good point
<Eickmeyer> Another one I've heard suggested is Super+Z
<Spass> bluesabre, you mean Ctrl+Esc?
<bluesabre> Spass: yeah, that's what I meant
<pleia2> maybe put together a list of proposals from everyone and finalize at future meeting?
<bluesabre> pleia2: yeah, I think that's a good idea
<bluesabre> I'll send this off to the ML
<knome> yep, mailing list thread sounds fair.
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to mail the mailing list to discuss additional keyboard shortcuts
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to mail the mailing list to discuss additional keyboard shortcuts
<Spass> Are you thinking about replacing current ones or just adding another working shortcuts?
<bluesabre> Spass: just adding
<bluesabre> Spass: but also, always open to proposals
<Spass> Cool
<bluesabre> Moving on to the next subtopic :)
<bluesabre> #subtopic Configuring GIMP to use the GTK theme (instead of dark)
<bluesabre> (theming things always bring plenty of opinions, but)
<bluesabre> We added GIMP back to Xubuntu during the last development cycle.
<bluesabre> The new GIMP appearance default is a dark background and monochrome icons.
<bluesabre> I propose we set this to use the GTK theme and color icon theme (in the name of desktop consistency)
<knome> doesn't all image editing software do that now
<Eickmeyer> Studio will probably pass on this as more pro artists tend to prefer a medium- to dark-gray.
<bluesabre> knome: probably
<knome> but yes, i agree with keeping the GTK theme especially if it's "supported" - meaning we don't end up with broken-looking software
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: yeah, and that makes sense for Studio. Since Xubuntu doesn't really target a pro/creative audience, I think the GTK theme option might be a better fit for us.
<bluesabre> My question is, should we roll with that distinction, or send it to a M/L vote?
<Spass> As a user, I also agree that GTK+Color would look better overall in Xubuntu (so +1 for that), but yeah, I know that some people will not like that.
<bluesabre> (Sorry my meetings are always, hey team, can I do this?) :D
<Spass> (I know that I don;t really have a vote here, but it's just a small feedback, hope you don't mind that)
<bluesabre> Spass: don't mind that at all, it is a community meeting after all :)
<bluesabre> Suppose I'll send this along to the team for a vote to be fair
<knome> well, the other side is that gimp used to be GTK
<knome> so wouldn't the change to the medium gray need the approval :P
<bluesabre> Yeah, GTK theme used to be "default"
<bluesabre> :D
<Spass> Good point :)
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to mail the team regarding the GTK styles in GIMP (noting GTK used to be default)
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to mail the team regarding the GTK styles in GIMP (noting GTK used to be default)
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> good good
<bluesabre> And now onto something more divisive
<bluesabre> #subtopic Color emoji in Xubuntu
<bluesabre> We visited the idea of color emoji in the past and determined that we should continue to use non-color emoji at the time, citing the GTK2 Xfce desktop and other toolkits.
<bluesabre> Since Xfce 4.14 is imminent and ships with GTK3 (and the non-color emoji is difficult to see, at least for me), I'd like to propose shipping with color emoji by default.
<knome> do you have any evidence of hard-to-see monochrome emojis in context?
<bluesabre> I'll need to put together some screenshots
<bluesabre> I've personally switched after not being able to decipher my barrage of email notifications containing emoji
<bluesabre> (why are they everywhere now?)
<knome> you are emailing with the wrong people?
<Spass> I remember that I've sent some before here, but can't find it now.
<bluesabre> In any case, this is something that would require a team vote, so this is more of a heads up :D
<knome> yes
<Spass> iirc I've proposed that for Disco
<bluesabre> Spass: yes, I think I recall that
<knome> yep.
<pleia2> it's time for them
<Unit193> Heh, I guess I'm the only one that reamins -1.
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Remains, rather.
<knome> Unit193, not really. but then again, i don't really use any emoji at all.
<bluesabre> Anyway, I'll be sending this to a vote in the M/L, so be sure to reply there so can we collectively +1/-1 :D
<knome> i can be persuaded to +1'ing :P
<pleia2> imma vote with emojis
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to email a team vote for color emoji support in Xubuntu
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to email a team vote for color emoji support in Xubuntu
<knome> i'll vote -1 and then hack the mailing list so nobody else gets their votes through
<knome> (:
<bluesabre> pleia2: lol
<bluesabre> knome: how very ð of you
<Eickmeyer> It's just the state the world is in now. You either move with it or break from it.
<bluesabre> Yeah
<knome> bluesabre, that just looks like a circle to me in my IRC client. it could be a watermelon or... something completely different.
<bluesabre> knome, hence bringing it up ;)
<bluesabre> Next subtopic...
<bluesabre> #subtopic Expanding membership
<Eickmeyer> knome: He could be flipping you off and you'd never know it. ;)
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> So, our team has been getting a bit smaller/quiter as of late, so Unit193 and I reached to out check on some folks...
<knome> Eickmeyer, i'm happy i've decided to stop caring what other people think over half of my lifetime ago :P
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<bluesabre> slickymaster (David) isn't going to be very available in the near future, but we may see him pop in here and there.
<bluesabre> akxwi-dave (Dave) says he'll be back to help soon.
<bluesabre> And also the news about Kev and Jack stepping away.
<bluesabre> So, we're down a few more folks than usual. Anybody interested in joining the Xubuntu team, or have ideas on how to expand membership? :D
<knome> yeah... to be fair, this doesn't come by surprise; it's now a bit more official/visible than it was before
<knome> i mean, those people haven't really been around in the day-to-day stuff even if they might have taken part in the team votes etc.
<bluesabre> Indeed
<Eickmeyer> Due to our shared DE, do you kinda see the Studio team as a quasi-extension?
<bluesabre> So, smaller team, varying workload, not the healthiest of positions right now
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: yeah, definitely. I was hoping to start working with your team more (in general, and because we all need help)
<Eickmeyer> Right. I would suggest a partnership on this, especially with matters that are DE-specific, including configuration, but not necessarily theming because we use a different default theme.
<knome> Eickmeyer, i think bluesabre is specifically talking about getting new xubuntu team members
<bluesabre> Yeah, and we're the last non-GNOME GTK desktops, so there's even less outside help than before
<knome> but i'm also happy to get back to xubuntu and ubuntu studio collaboration
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: knome's right, I actually have a separate subtopic for the collaboration :)
<knome> bluesabre, otoh, xfce itself is so much healthier than it's been for a long time
<Eickmeyer> Ok, then I'll stop jumping ahead.
<bluesabre> knome: that's also true
<knome> (and a big part of the xubuntu development resources have gone there too)
<knome> so potentially after 4.14 and some bugfix releases we might see more manpower available for the xubuntu-specific stuff 
<knome> given that you and simon are still interested in such things ;)
<bluesabre> But as far as Xubuntu goes, we're a bit lacking in QA and documentation these days, which will probably become more of a problem over time
<knome> but to get back to the subject and something more concrete...
<bluesabre> It definitely helps that Xfce is more alive
<knome> lower barrier to entry, somehow
<knome> fortunately our documentation is relatively up-to-date
<knome> if xfce gets more love in that area, we could try to lean more on that upstream documentation
<knome> i don't think we currently interlink the documentation very well there
<bluesabre> I think you're right about that
<knome> in a sense i feel like with the gtk3 migration and with more xfce components being "what we need" OOTB, xubuntu has become "just another xfce distro" (mostly in a good way)
<bluesabre> Fair point
<knome> we've always been upstream-friendly, trying to push all of our improvements upstream
<Eickmeyer> I would say Xubuntu is the distro people think of when they hear "Xfce".
<knome> which pays off in the long run since we do not have a huge pile of code to maintain
<knome> but of course there is the QA side, which must be done for xubuntu specifically
<bluesabre> So, we're in pretty OK shape in areas other than QA :D
<knome> we're... just about ok :P
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> We live another day/release :)
<knome> of course it isn't ideal that most of our teams are just one guy (team lead) and probably one or two of the other core members hanging around and kind of helping with yet another thing
<bluesabre> Don't suppose there's any magic pill to get people to join?
<pleia2> nope
<knome> nah
<bluesabre> dang
<Eickmeyer> Sadly, no.
<knome> this is the same situation xubuntu has been in since i joined in 2008.
<bluesabre> In any case, it's good to review and discuss
<pleia2> defining discrete tasks and offering mentorship is one method (and has worked some with testing), but it's pretty hands on
<knome> it takes time to convince people to start contributing, and when they do, it takes more time to keep them involved enough until they keep maintaining their own motivation up
<knome> mentorship indeed
<knome> but the issue with that is that it takes a lot of time and there is no guarantee of the outcome
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> we have spent a lot of time on people in the realm of testing who disappeared, and it can get pretty discouraging
<Eickmeyer> From the Studio side, I'm having to learn from other teams how to do stuff because nobody is around to mentor me. Which means nobody is around to mentor new people.
<pleia2> Eickmeyer: there are only so many people like us :)
<Eickmeyer> pleia2: Exactly. I hope to get to the point where I can mentor new people.
<knome> i feel like a lot of the mentoring is/can be just being "there" for the other person.
<knome> ...once you have somebody that is motivated to do something
<knome> we've had a few people telling how they want to help with xubuntu, but they expect us to be something we're not -- and working with open source software to be something it's not
<knome> eg. "i really like xubuntu and want to help... please give me a title and send me all of your assets and plans so i can start working"
<Eickmeyer> knome: Same for Studio, but on a different scale.
<pleia2> that's why discrete tasks help
<pleia2> but it takes time and effort to put that sort of thing together, and it's not easy to come up with things that don't require lots of background knowledge
<bluesabre> Definitely seems like the place to start investigating though
<knome> sure... but then the starting point is already wrong if people expect to get some kind of "value" in return
<knome> i can only speak for the areas i work with, but.. if i had the time to put up a very specific plan to so something, i could likely use the time i used to create the documentation to implement the "feature" myself
<knome> doing the latter means i know it will get done
<pleia2> yeah, that's the thing
<pleia2> but it does help long term if someone signs up for it and can do it on their own next time :)
<knome> doing the former means there is a very small chance somebody will pick up the pieces and finish it off before the documentation is so rotten that it needs to be rewritten
<knome> of course... but where should we draw the line?
<pleia2> this is probably a bigger discussion than we can have here right now
<Eickmeyer> knome: I'm still cleaning up Studio's documentaton after years of rot/neglect.
<bluesabre> I'll work on documenting some starting points for dev/QA so we have better places/resources. I'll also ping the other flavors to see if we can do this with a larger group
<knome> take the flyer for example... there will definitely be low hanging fruit in updating it
<pleia2> bluesabre: good place to start :)
<knome> but if we need to teach the contributor to use the tools to do the changes... meh
<Eickmeyer> bluesabre: I like that idea, count me in.
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: will do
<Eickmeyer> knome: The Ubuntu wiki's formatting is hard to learn/teach, so I'm right there with you.
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to work on improving "starting point" documentation for dev/QA
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to work on improving "starting point" documentation for dev/QA
<knome> Eickmeyer, now you lost me with ubuntu wiki ;)
<Eickmeyer> knome: XD
<knome> but sure, all tools require learning
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to reach out to other flavors to improve shared documentation
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to reach out to other flavors to improve shared documentation
<bluesabre> knome: and in the case of ubuntu wiki, patience! :D
<pleia2> hehe
 * Eickmeyer starts throwing stuff at the Ubuntu wiki out of rage
<knome> but if you're not motivated to learn the tools yourself, then i don't personally see much "future" for you in the open source world, because mostly it is learning something to be able to do something
 * bluesabre nods
<knome> i can deal with the ubuntu wiki (it's always been nicer to me than everybody else) ;)
<bluesabre> Moving on to the next subtopic
<bluesabre> #subtopic QA
<bluesabre> We mentioned this before, but with flocculant (Kev) stepping down, we no longer have a QA lead.
<knome> i vote for Unit193.
<knome> wait, what?
<knome> we aren't voting yet?
<knome> (:
<bluesabre> +1
<bluesabre> Oh
<Eickmeyer> +1 (Even though my vote doesn't count)
<knome> he's the only one around with no team lead hat.
<pleia2> hehe
 * knome hands Unit193 the clown costume and silly hat
<Eickmeyer> hehehe
<bluesabre> Obviously we'll want to fill this position soon, but I don't think anybody's currently stepping in to it. So, we might need to drum up some consistent QA contributors first.
<bluesabre> All related to the membership discussion above :)
<Unit193> knome: I've had a team lead hat for quite some time.
<bluesabre> Anything else that needs to be said here meanwhile?
<bluesabre> Unit193 is the Debian Liaison :D
<knome> liaison, no lead
<knome> :P
<Unit193> (Still not sure what that is, btw.)
<knome> before we have a QA lead, will the council take the role of "leading" the QA efforts?
<Eickmeyer> My QA lead is also my Debian liason, so  Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<Eickmeyer> albiet, smaller workload
<knome> Unit193, we can switch it to the QA lead hat, i'm pretty sure you know what QA is :P
<bluesabre> knome: yeah, council or tech lead... I'm basically going to try to drum up testing interest (and test where possible)
<bluesabre> And flocculant has been here and there reporting bugs, thankfully :)
<Unit193> knome: Yeah, but TBH I haven't been testing ISOs much for some time, I tend to do some devel testing of course, but just not repeated installs.
<knome> fortunately kev left pretty good documentation after him
<Unit193> Eickmeyer: I don't know who you have, but what that so far means is that I try and keep Debian Xfce as close to syncable as possible, and maintain Xfce components there.
<bluesabre> knome: definitely
<bluesabre> Unit193: and you do a great job managing that, so thanks there
<Eickmeyer> Unit193: I have Ross (rosco2) and he's one of the Debian Multimeda Team leads. He does the same with the multimedia software.
<bluesabre> But yeah, for now I'll at least be keeping an eye on QA and attempting to field testing questions
<knome> thanks bluesabre 
<knome> i'd love to, but unfortunately i don't think i can provide much help with my time and hardware
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Eickmeyer: I think you mean 'team members' :)
<bluesabre> I'm stretching my laptop thin with VMs while I save up for some new hardware :)
<Eickmeyer> Unit193: Yeah, must be. I'm still learning that structute. :)
<Eickmeyer> *structure
<bluesabre> Anyway, we'll continue on to the next subtopic
<bluesabre> (thanks for sticking around!)
<bluesabre> #subtopic Collaboration with Ubuntu Studio
 * Eickmeyer is in bed on his back, so can do nothing BUT stick around
<Eickmeyer> And, seeing me talk in here, I bet you're all like, "Who but THIS guy in charge of Ubuntu Studio?!?"
<Eickmeyer> *put
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: team vote, mutiny, inheritance? :D
<pleia2> we're familiar with leaders becoming leaders by default (or being voluntold, see above)
<Eickmeyer> bluesabre: Probably inheritance. I joined the team with intention to contribute, but nobody was leading anything, so I jumped-in and got things organized. That's the Cliff's Notes version of the Reader's Digest version.
<knome> Eickmeyer, i bet you were the only one too crazy or clueless of what awaits you to step up for the spot :P
<Eickmeyer> knome: Crazy or clueless? Yes.
<Eickmeyer> (Inclusive Or)
<knome> welcome to the team
<pleia2> :D
<Eickmeyer> Haha, thanks. :)
<knome> err, i mean club
<knome> but
<knome> eh
<knome> whatever
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: I reported some bugs and ochosi pushed me into Xfce and Xubuntu
<knome> (2.30am here...)
<Unit193> Seems we're getting a little off track.
<Eickmeyer> Anyhow...
<bluesabre> Unit193: it's all related-ish
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi reported some bugs and i pushed him into xfce and xubuntu :P
<Eickmeyer> I guess this is something I brought-up in the ML.
<bluesabre> Anyway, with Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio sharing a similar Xfce base (don't ever leave us), we have an opportunity for some collaboration (and better communication)
<bluesabre> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2019-May/011793.html
<bluesabre> ^ Eickmeyer reaching out with the proposal
<knome> this only makes sense; it's been done before and i can't see any negatives on it
<Eickmeyer> The example I used was our panel was way-off and still using indicator-* stuff, which I was informed is no longer maintained.
<bluesabre> We're definitely open to keeping things more in sync between the 2, since that expands testing on our shared base
<Eickmeyer> The team hadn't been informed of using xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin as opposed to xfce4-volumed for volume control.
<Eickmeyer> That got me to reach-out to all of you.
<Eickmeyer> And, I know we could use the shared resources of knowledge.
<bluesabre> Yeah, that one was probably my lack of communication, sorry about that.
<Unit193> Pretty sure the indicator stuff is still maintained in the Ubuntuverse.
<Eickmeyer> Unit193: I've been informed it is not.
<knome> "maintained"
<knome> as in, it's still in the repository
<Unit193> Eickmeyer: Subscribe to the RSS feeds for xubuntu.seed and xubuntu-default-settings and you're pretty much set, fwiw.
<knome> until somebody notices there hasn't been any updates in the last 10 years and drops it.
<Eickmeyer> Yes, but as with all things, the indicator stuff will be subject to bitrot.
<Eickmeyer> Unit193: Will do.
<Unit193> knome: There's push back against the Ayatana stuff because some Ubuntu people think they're still maintaining the indicator stuff properly.
<knome> lol
<Unit193> That's why we can't sync xfce4-indicator-plugin from Debian, like I'd really really really want to.
<knome> sounds fun.
<Unit193> Because ayatana is a fork that makes it distro-agnostic, and of course someone in Ubuntu doesn't like that. \o/
<Eickmeyer> I was specifically informed that Canonical wants to drop the indicator stuff from Ubuntu entirely, but that means making sure all flavors are onboard with that.
<bluesabre> :(
<Unit193> Eickmeyer: What's your source?
<bluesabre> If dropping means that the Ayatana stuff replaces it, I don't think there's a negative from the Xubuntu team perspective.
<Eickmeyer> Unit193: I'd have to look back at my logs, but it was in either -release or -desktop.
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps even -devel.
<Unit193> Eickmeyer: Last I saw their response was "We're maintaining Ubuntu indicator stuff and don't want to work with some hostile upstream" :/
<Eickmeyer> Unit193: My source was a couple weeks ago.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Yeah, we're more than ready as we *could* just use the ayatana stuff, but we don't ship any of that anyway.
<Unit193> Eickmeyer: This would be very good, we want to get rid of the Ubuntu versions.
<Unit193> ...But this isn't exactly related to the topic at hand. :P
<Eickmeyer> Either way, we've dropped indicator-* from our seed and updated our panel to match Xubuntu.
<knome> it is, you're just doing the real collaboration instead of the meta talk :P
<bluesabre> :D
<Eickmeyer> In the meantime, we get a lot of people with issues related to using xfce4-volumed.
<knome> but yes, let's try to wrap up the meeting
<Eickmeyer> For instance, it doesn't survive a pulseaudio restart.
<Unit193> xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin replaces xfce4-volumed/indicator-sound, sooo...
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, we didn't know that until a month ago.
<Unit193> (My version survives a PA restart.)
<Unit193> knome: Yes, lets.
<Eickmeyer> That drove this collaboration talk.
<knome> bluesabre, wake up!
 * Eickmeyer steps off of soapbox
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: so yeah, going forward we'll keep your team up-to-date on the latest Xubuntu updates (and hopefully you'll often follow suit so the base remains similar)
<Eickmeyer> bluesabre: That's the plan. :)
<bluesabre> Right-o!
<bluesabre> I think that wraps everything up then.
<bluesabre> Anybody else got anything else before we close it out?
<bluesabre> #topic AOB
<bluesabre> Because I'm out of things to say, I think :)
<knome> i'm good. i think i'm next in the line for scheduling a meeting, but i'm not sure when i'll have the time... so if you don't hear from me in a sensible time, please skip me.
<bluesabre> knome: will do
<Eickmeyer> Doodle is a good place to collaborate on scheduling.
<knome> i can do my chairing duties at another time
<knome> we usually just ask the irc channel and then go for it
<bluesabre> knome: sounds fair
<bluesabre> In that case
<bluesabre> #topic Schedule next meeting
<knome> or just schedule and hope somebody pops up :D
<bluesabre> #action knome to schedule next meeting, but skip him if he doesn't in a sensible amount of time
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to schedule next meeting, but skip him if he doesn't in a sensible amount of time
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> thanks
<bluesabre> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jun 14 23:47:24 2019 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2019/xubuntu-devel.2019-06-14-22.00.moin.txt
<Unit193> Wait, I thought we were supposed to schedule and hope nobody did....I've been doing this all wrong.
<bluesabre> Thanks everybody!
<Unit193> bluesabre: Thanks.
<knome> and thanks bluesabre for chairing
<bluesabre> That was a good discussion
<Eickmeyer> Thanks! Looking forward to a bright future of collaboration!
<knome> yep, and i didn't fall asleep before the meeting irrecoverably :D
<bluesabre> ð
<knome> again some kind of poo poo on my screen
<knome> :D
<Eickmeyer> knome: I'm going to tell you what I have told tsimonq2: Go. To. Bed.
<knome> nighty!
<knome> yep.
<bluesabre> Seeya!
<knome> o/
<bluesabre> Minutes are up, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-15
<ali1234> wait so the fork of ayatana is called ayatana? i'm confused
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> ali1234: The Ubuntu versions are just 'indicators', though it was referred to as 'Ayatana'.  The actual fork is named 'ayatana' and that's the internal name as well.  They're entirely compatible right now, so patches like http://paste.openstack.org/show/fW34wv9fff7zKbsxi4dW work.
<Unit193> For the past several years, the libs in Ubuntu have been rolling from git, no actual releases since ~2016 so convincing upstreams and other distros to pick it up was a bit annoying.  Now, Debian has pretty much switched to the ayatana stack so all derivs benefit as well (Except Ubuntu, which reverts it all in main.)  remmina and nm-applet as well as others have upstream support to select which 
<Unit193> stack or autodetect.
<Eickmeyer> A lot of them have gone to kstatusindicator.
<Unit193> ....No, a lot of KDE/Qt things have since it's built-in, we're talking GTK here.
<Unit193> Unfortunately, for GTK you used to only have Ubuntu's libs for that stuff.
<Unit193> For Ubuntu/GNOME users, this is even more useful as trayicons have been deprecated and the topicons (or whatever it is) is under bitrot, whereas the gnome-shell extension to re-add Indicator support is currently maintained.
<Unit193> Though since you say Canonical might no longer be interested in such things, I wonder if https://github.com/ubuntu/gnome-shell-extension-appindicator will still remain maintained.
<Unit193> ...Anywho.
<ali1234> what is the ayatana position on text next to icons?
<ali1234> i mean, which version of the spec are they following?
<Unit193> Not sure.
<Eickmeyer> Unit193: That's what I'm talking about. gnome-shell-extension-appindicator makes use of kstatusindicator in addition to other methods.
<Unit193> ...OK?
<Eickmeyer> So, no, it's not going anywhere.
<Unit193> Right, up until I specifically mentioned it, I wasn't talking about gnome-shell.
<Eickmeyer> Well, Canonical is interested in gnome-shell, since their Ubuntu desktop uses that extension by default, they don't want it going anywhere. But, the older Unity indicators are being depricated.
<Eickmeyer> Or anything that takes advantage of that method.
<Unit193> And when you say 'indicators', you mena indicator-application type things or libappindicator3?
<Eickmeyer> indicator-application.
<Eickmeyer> so confusing...
<Unit193> Yeah no, I'm talking about the actual libraries, libappindicator.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, no. The libraries are sticking around.
<Unit193> Though, getting rid of indicator-application is very good.
<Unit193> That's unfortunate.
<Unit193> Eickmeyer: Just about everything from above is about the libraries.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, it was a misunderstanding. I was referring to the indicator-* stuff.
<ochosi> bluesabre: apologies that i couldnt make it yesterday, will try to catch up by reading tonight
<Unit193> ochosi: It's OK, we assigned everything to you.
<ochosi> lol thanks :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: and I will carry on reporting things when I find them :)
<flocculant> thanks for the thanks peeps too :D
<Unit193> Did we already thank you for sticking around even when you're not sticking around? :D
<flocculant> Unit193: :D
<flocculant> different now - I'm just this guy :D
<flocculant> Unit193: when the ppa's have new stuff perhaps you could let me know <- or bluesabre :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: will dooooo
<TJ-> anyone have expertise around xfce4-power-manager? Re-hit by bug #1759950 on uprading several laptops to 19.04 from 18.04
<ubottu> bug 1759950 in light-locker (Ubuntu) "Lid-close suspend: blank screen when switching to user session" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1759950
<brainwash> TJ-: you tried without light-locker?
<TJ-> I've just solved it :D
<TJ-> It's a fight with logind; changing default settings for logind 
<TJ-> I wish I'd discovered that when I first reported it. wasted days tracking light-locker!
<TJ-> Is there a way to tag a bug as a task for Xubuntu specifically?
<bluesabre> TJ-: report the bug against xubuntu-default-settings will do :)
<TJ-> bluesabre: thanks ... I've tracked it down to a 2105 commit in x-p-m that integrated light-locker/logind support
<Unit193> Sounds more like a xfce4-power-manager bug.
<TJ-> Unit193: ^^^ I've tracked it down to a commit in x-p-m 
<Unit193> Yes, I can see that, given the text was right above mine.
<TJ-> but that commit is pretty invasive/large so hard to reason about what is going on
<Unit193> Debian #840570 looks fun...
<ubottu> Debian bug 840570 in xfce4-power-manager "xfce4-power-manager: Attempts to suspend again after opening lid" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/840570
<TJ-> this looks to be related to the underlying "logind-handle-lid-switch" value, which is "true". I wonder if disabling that and leaving logind's properties alone would work. Time to test
<TJ-> Unit193: I get that too; I've always read it as a left-over from closing the lid because policykit doesn't allow it - I do recall some time ago altering the policykit settings one one system to allow it. I'd forgotten I'd done that until you mentioned that bug
<TJ-> Here it is on 19.04: org.fredesktop.login1.suspend  https://i.imgur.com/H0xSzW2.jpg
<TJ-> yes; I think this is the policy I added: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9BJ793XSj6/
<Unit193> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=758771 sounds like that one.
<ubottu> Debian bug 758771 in xfce4-power-manager "xfce4-power-manager conflicts with default settings of systemd/logind" [Normal,Open]
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-16
<TJ-> Doing a few more experiments here because noticed after altering logind.conf suspend wasn't happening on lid close at all ;S
<TJ-> this is weird... it seems like the problem only occurs before some property is specifically saved/set.. I've got 2 identical laptops side-by-side, fresh installs of 19.04, with both x-p-m set to Suspend on Lid close for Battery and/or AC, and those properties confirmed via "grep -rn lid ~/.config/" - the one with /etc/systemd/logind.conf HandleLidSwitch*=ignore does not suspend on lid close (screen
<TJ-> does DPMS off). 
<TJ-> Would there be anywhere else a setting might be recorded, by either logind, or x-p-m, on a system level rather than per-user? It seems like once the changes have been made, even after removing them, some trace remains (even over a reboot so not in /run/) and I cannot reproduce even with a new user account
<brainwash> bluesabre: can you confirm that bug 1046695 is fixed?
<ubottu> bug 1046695 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Settings Manager in Xubuntu 12.10 does not have minimize button" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1046695
<brainwash> magically
<brainwash> mmh
<brainwash> https://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?id=bd6481d170cebb56b33a38806e021a5781d82c6c
<brainwash> brainwash: you have this one on your list? https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15428
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 15428 in Settings Manager "Xfce 4.14pre1 | Wrong icon layout after settings window is maximized" [Normal,New]
<TJ-> I've been doing more tests of the LCD being turned off after lid-close suspend-resume. It works fine first cycle of suspend-resume, but blanks on 2nd cycle
<TJ-> *but* when x-p-m > Security > lock on suspend is *disabled* LCD is blank as soon as system resumes even on first cycle
<TJ-> HOWEVER, if x-p-m dialog is left on-screen during the suspend-resume cycle the LCD always recovers 
<brainwash> TJ-: but isn't the x-p-m version in 18.04 and 19.04 basically the same?
<brainwash> TJ-: did you try anything gpu related yet?
<TJ-> brainwash: in what way GPU related?
<brainwash> gpu driver to be precise
<TJ-> This affects any GPU across (now) 9 laptops
<brainwash> all intel GPUs?
<TJ-> and it only affects the user session; TTYs can be switched to and LCD is fine, but goes off as soon as switch back to user session
<TJ-> No, Intel, AMD, Nvidia
<brainwash> okay
<brainwash> that is odd
<TJ-> it's some weird interaction with the Lid handling of logind/x-p-m/light-locker from what I can tell 
<TJ-> Originally I did some major digging and debugging of light-locker alnd lightdm (last year) but being hit by this again for 19.04 found this x-p-m interaction and so want to solve it!
<TJ-> I'm starting to worry I'll break the lid hinges :D
<TJ-> it's got to be some internal state getting confused as to what the DPMS state is currently, and toggling it to the wrong state
<brainwash> it's odd that a wide range of hardware is affected in your case
<TJ-> greeter shows fine when lock is enabled, but screen goes off as soon as password entered, but can switch to TTYs and screen is on again, Alt+F7 bac to user session, screen goes off
<TJ-> I've been doing clean installs from a 19.04 desktop amd64 ISO on USB to ensure there's no inherited config
<TJ-> I can't let users have the laptops with this going on; I work around since 18.04 by manually suspended before closing the lid :)
<brainwash> uhm
<brainwash> tried with xfce4-screensaver yet?
<brainwash> it's new in 19.04
<TJ-> is that installed by default? or an add-on ?
<ochosi> just a heads up, you pinged yourself there: "brainwash$ brainwash: you have this one on your list? https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15428"
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 15428 in Settings Manager "Xfce 4.14pre1 | Wrong icon layout after settings window is maximized" [Normal,New]
<ochosi> :)
<brainwash> I noticed that ochosi 
<brainwash> but thought that no one else will, or if then not mention it :)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> regarding the LP issue you mentioned above (minimize button missing), yes, that's fixed
<brainwash> TJ-: it's a new locker, just not installed by default yet
<TJ-> grrr, just installing screensaver and system suspends due to battery!
<brainwash> ochosi: after all these years!
<TJ-> brainwash: Wow!
<TJ-> I just opened its settings an there's a big warning "Xfce power manager is not configured to handle laptop lid events" - is this expected, or a big clue?
<brainwash> that's /xfce4-power-manager/logind-handle-lid-switch
<TJ-> yes, it chaned it from true to false
<TJ-> changed it
<TJ-> Is screensaver going to argue with light-locker if light-locker is left with its default to lock when suspending?
<brainwash> maybe
<brainwash> you could kill the current running process
<brainwash> and disable the autostart entry
<TJ-> ahh, no, I disabled that in x-p-m Security and it disabled the screensavers setting too
<TJ-> and with that enabled, on resume get login dialog as per usual, and as soon as password entered LCD goes off (but TTYs are fine)
<brainwash> with xfce4-screensaver?
<TJ-> yes
<brainwash> really?
<TJ-> and I'm noticing, with screensaver, the behaviour of how screensaver acts (unrelated to this issue) is all over the place. It seems to be inhibiting suspend for about 30 seconds before system suspends after lid closed. On resume it displays the previous content of the desktop before replacing that with the password dialog, then blanking for fraction of a second, then returning.
<brainwash> xfce4-screensaver runs in the same TTY
<TJ-> Entering password - so far - hasn't resulted in lost display .... but got a few more cycles to test - i'm getting lost in all the permutations
<TJ-> and... its gone blank on 2nd, or is it 3rd, cycle!
<brainwash> uhm
<brainwash> I just remembered something
<brainwash> /etc/UPower/UPower.conf -> IgnoreLid=true
<brainwash> you tried this already?
<TJ-> Not so far, no. I've just added --debug to lightdm's service file in case there's clues there
<TJ-> closed lid but it hasn't suspended; looks to be inihibted and waiting the timeout
<brainwash> xfce4-screensaver does not use lightdm though
<TJ-> the DM is lightdm, I just wanted to see if it logs anything related to events. 
<TJ-> This time it failed on 1st cycle
<TJ-> thi would be funny if wasn't tragic! whilst the screen was dead, closed lid, suspended... resumed and the password login dialog is shown, as soon as password is entered, screen off!
<TJ-> I wonder if this is backlight and not a full DPMS off? I'll try shining a torch next time but I think I tried this last year :)
<TJ-> I'm monitoring the lid switch uevent first, than I'll try changing the UPower setting
<ochosi> Unit193: is /usr/share/xubuntu/applications/xfce4-terminal.desktop a distro-specific file? any idea where that's coming from? at least i dont find anything in xfce4-terminal's git about this minimal/semi-broken desktop file
<ochosi> Unit193: background: xfce4-terminal registers at the session manager with this desktop file
<ochosi> Unit193: and since it contains no icon name, there's no icon in the session-settings dialog
<Unit193> That is, of course, shipped in xubuntu-default-settings such that xfce4-terminal is hidden in favor of exo-terminal-emulator.desktop.
<TJ-> brainwash: UPower *may* have worked around it; only done 3 cycles so far though
<TJ-> brainwash: done many cycles now and it does seem to have solved the issue; Rather disconcertingly though, the options to set Lid close policy in x-p-m's General tab have been removed as a result
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-08
<jphilips> do we have a PPA that 18.04 users can use to get xfce 4.14?
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
<bluesabre> jphilips: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging, with the caveat:
<bluesabre> > As these packages (and new package versions) are primarily geared towards testing, they can be removed from the PPA at any time by the Xubuntu developers. Please DO NOT consider this PPA a main, stable source for the packages.
<ochosi> also, waiting until 20.04.1 shouldn't take too long
<Unit193> Well...That warning isn't exactly accurate,  but at this point I don't plan on backporting much longer.
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-09
<jphilips> Unit193: wanted to make changes to the synaptic and pulse audio .desktop files and presumed the best option is to do it in debian, so how to submit patches for that?
<Unit193> Debian BTS.
<Unit193> One can also check if MRs are accepted on Salsa.
<jphilips> BTS?
<jphilips> would this be the right pulse audio package? - https://salsa.debian.org/pulseaudio-team/pulseaudio
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Seed python3-heat-dashboard @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=8ddbb45b34f8a15ac2c07dafc70efc316cd326b0 (by Corey Bryant)
<jphilips> might be useful to steal the keyboard and accessibility icons from ubuntu mate on the boot screen - https://imgur.com/aec7J0g.png
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-10
<jphilips> if there is a bug due to resuming from suspend, what package should that be filed against?
<jphilips> bluesabre: what is the best option for this, so it doesn't trigger a retranslation - https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs/pull/3
<ubot93> Pull 3 in Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs "Recommended was mispelt with three Ms" [Open]
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-11
<jphilips> bluesabre: done https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs/pull/4
<ubot93> Pull 4 in Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs "Recommended was mispelt" [Open]
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: Recommended was mispelt @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs/commit/50f3fdd90859ecc2d50f53bd1dbde73bfd04b07b (by philipzae)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: Merge pull request #4 from philipzae/fix-recommended @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs/commit/66b4f63e1dd9c1ec3d19ea77419ecb5ccb769558 (by bluesabre)
<bluesabre> ochosi, Unit193, FYI, pushing the greeter and settings up to the xubuntu github to be nearer to all the other greeters and lightdm itself
<ochosi> makes sense
<krytarik> bluesabre: Unfortunately, jphilips isn't here right now, but he neglected to also update the .pot file with the above commit.
<bluesabre> krytarik: noted, will fix
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: Update user-docs.pot @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs/commit/751067c3fcfe06d0433eade186a8f450caaab728 (by bluesabre)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-12
<Unit193> Of course, we have krytarik, always paying attention to the pot...
<krytarik> Hahaha.. XD
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in sk @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/9ed59bf6497625f4f50496b289c7e064f745dd4d (by transifex-integration)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: Translate /user-docs/po/user-docs.pot in pt_BR @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-docs/commit/fae156c216d135220d53df34c67e8b908cf6a5d7 (by transifex-integration)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-13
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in lt @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/a794ccce97a9156e886d10101c618b2179375fc7 (by transifex-integration)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in lt @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/b9fd0037ae3e78fcb959d65c016543acbb022a41 (by transifex-integration)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Translate /usr/bin/po/thunar-print.pot in lt @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/1ba0cc176dd324b55ad37afc1557c6e16a1e8890 (by transifex-integration)
<jphilips> bluesabre: what process do you want to go about adding xubuntu core to the download page?
<bluesabre> jphilips: let's create an issue on the xubuntu-website project to discuss it
<jphilips> https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-website/issues/18
<ubot93> Issue 18 in Xubuntu/xubuntu-website "Addition of Xubuntu Core to download page" [Open]
<jphilips> was curious why we have separate mines and sudoku apps, when sgt also bundles those games?
<pleia2> bluesabre: the ticket should do it, but we can follow up in #canonical-sysadmin later next week if there are any problems
<bluesabre> pleia2: perfect, thanks for your help
<pleia2> you're welcome :)
<Unit193> Not really sure that should be linked off of the downloads page, really.
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-14
<jphilips> any particular reasons Unit193
<jphilips> we could like to the magnetic link or a .torrent file hosted on xubuntu.org
<Unit193> Because at the end of the day, it's not really official, it's still a "community build" so a mention in the notes seems fine, but a link on the download page seems a bit too official, at least to me.
<jphilips> what would it take to make it official?
<bluesabre> I am so sorry for the amount of bug mail many of you just received :)
<jphilips> bluesabre: might have been good to have a link from each launchpad bug to the github issue
<bluesabre> jphilips: it's there, on the right
<bluesabre> and at the top
<jphilips> see it on the right but not at the top
<bluesabre> Which bug?
<jphilips> https://bugs.launchpad.net/menulibre/+bug/1877645
<ubot93> Launchpad bug 1877645 in MenuLibre "Add support for PrefersNonDefaultGPU desktop specification" [Unknown, New]
<jphilips> https://bugs.launchpad.net/menulibre/+bug/1882619
<ubot93> Launchpad bug 1882619 in MenuLibre "Also search command line argument" [Unknown, New]
<bluesabre> It's linked in the Assigned to column
<jphilips> oh okay. thought it would be text somewhere more visible :D
<bluesabre> Yeah, nice feature in LP, not quite as nice presentation
<bluesabre> :)
<jphilips> adding a comment with the link like how xfce did with bugzilla is the easiest thing to spot :D
<bluesabre> Requires a lot more work
<bluesabre> (Wasn't an automated process, connecting all of those on the LP side)
<jphilips> definitely wouldnt want you to do it if it required alot of work.
<jphilips> so has bug reporting on menulibre on launchpad been closed?
<bluesabre> It can still be reported against the ubuntu package
<bluesabre> But the main issue tracker is on GitHub now
<bluesabre> Since it's not a xubuntu-specific project/package
<jphilips> is lightdm not already translated?
<bluesabre> Not fully
<bluesabre> Translations in LP have been really slow the last few years
<jphilips> so the translation on xubuntu's transifex is not limited to just xubuntu then
<bluesabre> Xubuntu is effectively the maintainer for lightdm-gtk-greeter, and it's a core app
<jphilips> working on our list of default apps by comparing it with windows and other linux distros - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TiVcXNSfiDkwIIonz5WyBFAcTkg-hw7iIVzDH6_gsME/edit#gid=0
<jphilips> which flavors/distros are using lightdm-gtk-greeter?
<bluesabre> Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Ubuntu Budgie, Ubuntu Mate, Fedora Xfce (I think), Debian Xfce
<bluesabre> It's pretty widely used
<jphilips> okay let me put out a call for contributors and CC those distros in it :D
<Unit193> ...I'd really prefer actual reasoning rather than "But they're doing it", what do *we* need and what do *our* users want, not what does Manjaro's users want (because Manjaro is better at being Manjaro than we are, obviously.)
<jphilips> you can find some of my reasoning for the ones proposed in the ML here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2020-March/011877.html
<jphilips> community feedback on social media has also been pulled for some things like for whether a gui package manager is useful - https://twitter.com/Xubuntu/status/1245327919825801217
<Unit193> That's what gnome-software claims to be.
<Unit193> Last time someone brought up Synaptic, snap support and how well it was maintained were both brought up.  I'd still say it works better than the center, but that's just me. :P
<jphilips> synaptic works alot better than center, maybe not for easy discoverability of apps, but definitely for management.
<jphilips> from the distros listed, only xubuntu uses gnome software, all the rest use something else
<jphilips> :D
<Unit193> That's not interesting, what would be interesting is which Ubuntu flavors use it, or another center.
<jphilips> ubuntu uses snap store, ubuntu mate uses boutique, kubuntu uses discover
<jphilips> not sure what lubuntu and the newer flavors use
<Unit193> Moun, for KDE IIRC.
<jphilips> moun is the package manager not the software center
<Unit193> Seems nothing seeds synaptic.
<Unit193> Pros: It actually works, it doesn't randomly turn into a snap.  Cons: It isn't the most user friendly, if it breaks nobody but us has to care, no snap support.
<jphilips> would assume if you installed chromium it would still install the snap
<jphilips> those who want user friendly go for software center, those who want more control go with synaptic
<jphilips> bluesabre: ubuntu mate doesn't seem to be using lightdm gtk greeter
<bluesabre> Based that on `apt-cache rdepends`, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/2nrDY6f7YH/
<bluesabre> Yes, chromium would still install the snap, because there is no deb-packaged chromium in ubuntu
<jphilips> bluesabre: ubuntu has mahjong installed by default ;)
<jphilips> seems mate and budgie use the slick-greeter
<jphilips> budgie uses gnome software
<jphilips> have others seen this before, that thunar and a few other xfce apps have no icons in software - https://imgur.com/weyehGM.png
<jphilips> guess it must be the same no icon bug reported before the release. seems it still hasn't been fixed
<jphilips> anyone know what the green 1 in the installed tab means
