#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-11
 * humphreybc returns after walking miles across town in the pouring rain clutching onto a HP printer
 * humphreybc printer great success
 * humphreybc is going to start changing to the new ToC
 * humphreybc has almost finished overhauling the wiki table of contents
<humphreybc> jmburgess now would be a good time to start cracking on the latex change
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, we need to fix up the left margin at some point.
<IlyaHaykinson> the fact that the paragraphs are so indented means that we're losing a lot of space
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc, in the new ToC structure, where do we stick in "getting online"?
<IlyaHaykinson> chapter 4?
<humphreybc> well, it's sort of going to be included when we talk about Firefox
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah, but that's not how people think about it.
<IlyaHaykinson> they think "i just installed this, now i want to make sure i'm on the internet"
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe in chapter 4, we can make it more task-based?
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> we have to refine each chapter
<IlyaHaykinson> still talk about the same applications, but instead of breaking it up with application-titled subsections, make them use-case based subsections
<IlyaHaykinson> like "getting online", "browsing the web", "using email", etc
<humphreybc> yup, and with the notes etc we should be able to cover little things quite well
<IlyaHaykinson> exactly
<humphreybc> this blueprint stuff is messy
<IlyaHaykinson> you're trying to move them around?
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> I have to reassign authors
<humphreybc> but the thing is
<humphreybc> we have like one chapter totally disappearing
<humphreybc> another two chapters are being combined into one
<humphreybc> and then we have like two entirely new chapters
<humphreybc> so now we have some unassigned stuff
<humphreybc> and one person loses out :S
<IlyaHaykinson> well, we have enough people on the project to assign multiple people per blueprint
<IlyaHaykinson> in fact, i think we really should -- otherwise it a) will lead to some chapters not being done, b) will bottleneck on one person, c) will be too much work for any one person
<IlyaHaykinson> what if you just scrap the existing chapter blueprints, and create new ones, reassigning after creation to the folks who were already working on the content?
<IlyaHaykinson> (methinks this would have been much easier to do on a wiki instead, until content got more locked down)
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> we'll have a tonne of blueprints then
<humphreybc> i think we need to use the whiteboard more
<IlyaHaykinson> whiteboard?
<humphreybc> we need to establish teams for each chapter - the author(s) and then at least one editor.
<humphreybc> the editor needs to be set as the "approver"
<humphreybc> whiteboard - on the blueprints. to communicate
<IlyaHaykinson> i would imagine editing should really be done across the whole thing, though.
<humphreybc> if we treat each chapter as its own team and assign at least one author, then one editor and they work together closely
<humphreybc> well Jamin is in charge of the editing team
<humphreybc> there will be only 3 or 4 editors in total I would think
<IlyaHaykinson> i've done a lot of work in Wikipedia... this isn't really that unlike an article there.
<humphreybc> To be honest I don't want to fiddle with the blueprints any more
<humphreybc> I think we need better communication within the blueprints
<IlyaHaykinson> fair enough
<humphreybc> so: whiteboard :)
<humphreybc> I think if we can get an editing team of anywhere between 1 - 4 people, headed by one person who knows what they're doing, and then everyone gets on the same wavelength, then they can sort out what chapters they want to edit
<humphreybc> then they'll be the link between the project heads and the authors
<humphreybc> so the authors will work, the editors will edit and then when the authors are done they'll tell the editor and the editor will request feedback from one of the project admins. the editors and authors will communicate via the whiteboard and work closely together
<humphreybc> I think that should work :S
<humphreybc> i've yet to send an email about this though, still needs more thought and discussion. Plus I want to sort out this new ToC before I give everyone information overload on procedure!
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: ping
<humphreybc> hi
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: hi. i might be able to help with some of ch 4.
<humphreybc> oh awesome
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: specifically ubuntu one and rhythmbox
<humphreybc> do you know a lot about them?
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: i'm the product manager for ubuntu one and have been the business guy working on the upcoming rhythmbox music store
<humphreybc> oh really? are you a canonical employee?
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: i'm also chatting with the Ubuntu docs guys about the best way to go for documentation in these areas so i'm hoping to take care of two tasks here
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: yes
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> yep sure well jump in there and assign yourself to the blueprint. You're probably too busy to tackle all of the other apps
<humphreybc> but there will be others interested to help out
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: sure. i'll try :)
<humphreybc> I don't suppose you have a blog on the planet do you ....
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: not a personal one but the ubuntu one blog might show up there.
<humphreybc> okay cool. we've been trying to get a member/canonical employee to give us a bit of a shout out on the planet ;)
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: gotcha. i'll see what i can do :)
<humphreybc> awesome xD
<humphreybc> well welcome to the project!
<mattgriffin> thanks
<humphreybc> we're actually in the middle of changing the ToC around dramatically
<humphreybc> ToC = Table of Contents
<mattgriffin> cool
<humphreybc> So things might be a bit hectic for the next few days
<humphreybc> we'd also appreciate your feedback on the proposed title pages, they're on the screenshots page of the wiki :)
<humphreybc> only if you've got time. I know Canonical folks are busy
<vish> humphreybc: howz this ? or you want bigger ? > http://imagebin.ca/view/eyotBuWB.html
<mattgriffin> ok. i'll take a look
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc, i'm going to jump on chapter 4 as well.
<humphreybc> Awsome stuff Ilya. Ilya, Matt, Matt, Ilya. You two will be working together :P
<mattgriffin> cool
<IlyaHaykinson> mattgriffin, hi
<humphreybc> vish: the size is right, but put the whole thing a bit lower down
<mattgriffin> IlyaHaykinson: hi
<humphreybc> matt and Ilya, you'll need to make extensive use of the whiteboard
<humphreybc> because you'll have to decide which app you'll each do
<humphreybc> or which aps
<humphreybc> apps*
<vish> humphreybc: lower down would meant the eye would be lower than the text , which would be a bit awkward :(
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, i know someone else at canonical... lrichardson
<vish> mean*
<humphreybc> oh yeah and mattgriffin: are you actually at the Canonical offices or do you work from home?
<vish> humphreybc: let me show you how it would be lower down the
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: work from home - texas
<humphreybc> mattgriffin: okay, no worries. If you worked at the head office I was going to ask you if you could raise the project in casual conversation around the water cooler.... :P
<humphreybc> I know lot of people who are at UT
<mattgriffin> IlyaHaykinson: don't know lrichardson but i know his boss
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: cool. i'm based in dallas
<IlyaHaykinson> ah. i don't remember what he's working on... one of the backend projects, i think.
<IlyaHaykinson> i went to college with him at UCLA
<humphreybc> oh awesome, yeah they're all in austin
<mattgriffin> IlyaHaykinson: he's on the launchpad team
<humphreybc> cool so matt, you're obviously not one of these skeptics who think this project is a waste of time?
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: to be honest i'm still on the fence a bit so i want to learn more... but time is short so i don't learning will mean contributing :)  ... i'll definitely bring it up with my colleagues at work tomorrow and ensure they know about the project.
<vish> humphreybc: lower > http://imagebin.ca/view/NU8MEl.html  , also note the space above the head is too empty
<mattgriffin> humphreybc: sorry... confusing response... time is short so learning will require contributing :)
<humphreybc> mattgriffin: awesome stuff! :)
<vish> humphreybc: since we have the eye, if it is better aligned with the text it be ideal
<humphreybc> vish true but it isn't that noticeable. I definitely prefer the lower one
<vish> humphreybc: hmm.. ,well , i'll send you both incase you change your mind and you can decide later too
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> put them on the wiki
<vish> ah sure
<humphreybc> it's not up to me to decide, it's up to everyone :)
<humphreybc> remember we still have 4 months till we actually NEED a title page
<humphreybc> so we might not decide for quite a while
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc, do you have an example of folks using the whiteboard?
<IlyaHaykinson> it just seems to be one big textbox, rather than a back-and-forth communication tool, imho
<humphreybc> yeah it is
<humphreybc> you need to basically add to each thing
<humphreybc> don't overwrite what the last person says
<humphreybc> you're welcome to commandeer a part of the wiki too if you like
<humphreybc> under "blueprints"
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, kind of sucky.
<humphreybc> yeah it is a pain
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah, i think the wiki is a better approach. i'll do just that.
<IlyaHaykinson> sorry, my wiki{pedia,news} roots are strong.
<humphreybc> okay so under "blueprints" have a new heading called "Chapter 4" or something
<humphreybc> and write whatever you need to
<humphreybc> then update the specification link on the blueprint
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah, i'll take care of it. i'll keep a summary on the main page, and take the details further in.
<humphreybc> awesome
<IlyaHaykinson> main blueprint page, i mean
<humphreybc> use the whiteboard too
<humphreybc> even if it's just to point people to the wiki
<wolter> hi humphreybc
<humphreybc> hey wolter
<wolter> did you read my messages the other day?
<wolter> well, first of all, how are you?
<humphreybc> yeah wolter i think i did
<wolter> I could've used the memoserv if you were offline
<wolter> but anyway, thanks for doing so
<wolter> as for myself, I just read about the big readjustment taking place
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> it's busy
<wolter> Going through my other mails right now, but I think its good
<wolter> how about the html format?
<wolter> can latex code be rendered as html?
<humphreybc> uh we could possibly render one at some point
<humphreybc> but PDF is priority now
<wolter> in fact, i think this new toc is a MAJOR overhaul and that it is doing great wealth to the project
<IlyaHaykinson> re HTML, I think the easiest way to do this conversion would be manually...
<IlyaHaykinson> perhaps a simple ubuntu-manual-specific script can help do the conversion.
<wolter> yeah
<wolter> have you guys thought about mallard?
<IlyaHaykinson> but looks like existing latex to html conversion systems are kind of suboptimal and produce old html
<wolter> guys at GNOME are writting documentation with mallard and they say its the big thing
<wolter> better than wiki they say
<wolter> and well, wiki is like easy html
<wolter> would you be interested humphreybc ?
<IlyaHaykinson> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/projectmallard/
<IlyaHaykinson> its aim is to create the best topic-based help
<IlyaHaykinson> so not really targeting book-like forms
<wolter> Wow, I can't say at all I dislike what vish has done with my lynx :)
<humphreybc> Hmm?
<humphreybc> in mallard?
<humphreybc> i'll check it out
<wolter> oh
<humphreybc> sure when we get this PDF out and the main content complete, it'll be easy to port the manual to other file formats
<wolter> yeah, I never new much about it
<wolter> So... now that the artwork jobs are pretty much at rest, I would like to assign myself to the software and packaging topic and see what I can do there
<humphreybc> same goes for creating a Kubuntu and Xubuntu manual subsidary of our one. It would only require few changes to the desktop manger stuff
<wolter> how about that humphreybc ?
<humphreybc> hang on i'm talking to Jono Bacon and Matt
<wolter> wow ill be here :)
<wolter> can anybody tell me how to branch files into an already existing directory?
<IlyaHaykinson> perhaps bzr branch branchname . ?
<IlyaHaykinson> assuming you're in that directory?
 * IlyaHaykinson is making a totally wild guess with this one
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson, yeah, I thought about that
<wolter> but then bzr complains about . already existing
<wolter> I don't know why it doesn't tell me something I don't know
<wolter> also, has anybody commited a revision with the new organization?
<wolter> I just pulled the latest revision and it is honors the old toc
<IlyaHaykinson> not yet, i think jmburgess was going to work on it (?)
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> yeah, the changes started as of an hour ago today, right?
<wolter> could I help in anything?
<wolter> regarding those I mean
<wolter> well, maybe I could start writing a proposed chapter 6
<wolter> after all, 6 is my fav number
<wolter> which has nothing to do, regardless to say
<IlyaHaykinson> well, check out the new list of chapters, compare with the list of blueprints, and add yourself wherever you think you can help
<IlyaHaykinson> i think that we'll want to have small teams per chapter
<IlyaHaykinson> so find the other person on the chapter, if there's one already, and figure out some way to collaborate (i'm using a wiki page for chap4, for example)
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> so we're setting aside like unusual collaboration methods meanwhile, all right
<wolter> i'm going to check if there is some wiki for chapter 6, but in the new toc humphreybc posted it said there was no-one working on chapter 6
<wolter> i will create the document if it doesn't actually exist, nonetheless
<humphreybc> wolter: no there isn't anything about 6, just create a sub page like IlyaHaykinson has done with 4
<wolter> Done :)
<wolter> I will send a proposal to the mailing list
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: you could probably add a hyperlink from the main ToC on the wiki to your sub page
<IlyaHaykinson> sure; i added one from the blueprints page, but will add one from the ToC as well.
<humphreybc> neat
<wolter> nah its not that much of a good proposal
<humphreybc> guys: http://lifehacker.com/5441494/ubuntu-1004-to-include-beginners-manual
<IlyaHaykinson> hm. actually, i don't know if Ubuntu One really belongs in Chapter 4
<IlyaHaykinson> seems like it's more of a chapter 7 thing
<IlyaHaykinson> seeing how backup is really part of maintenance.
<wolter> "and is, as you might imagine, being written in wiki form, so anyone can contribute. What newcomer topics and how-tos would you like to see covered in an Ubuntu manual?" what? that ain't true
<IlyaHaykinson> unless one looks at Ubuntu One as more of a synchronization tool, of course.
<IlyaHaykinson> thoughts?
<IlyaHaykinson> wolter: my goal in life is to never care what a journalist writes. i've never had an article about what i've done -- even if it was in a prominent newspaper, like Los Angeles Times or Wall Street Journal -- come out with no factual errors
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson, well yeah, indeed
<IlyaHaykinson> and lifehacker certainly isn't the height of journalistic standards :)
<wolter> But it just makes me mad how people that unobservant have a place writing public articles
<wolter> Well, not that dramatic, but anyway
<IlyaHaykinson> :)
<humphreybc> wolter: I emailed the reporter just now and offered to do an interview to clear up some confusion.
<wolter> humphreybc, you're awesome
<humphreybc> haha i do my best :)
<IlyaHaykinson> hm. humphreybc, any thoughts on Ubuntu One in chap 4 vs chap 7?
<humphreybc> Um, ask mattgriffin :)
<humphreybc> It IS a default app
<IlyaHaykinson> mattgriffin, ping
<humphreybc> and it doesn't need to necessarily be used for backing up only
<humphreybc> it can be used for file sharing too
<IlyaHaykinson> sure, but... if we're approaching this from the perspective of use cases...
<mattgriffin> IlyaHaykinson: yo
<IlyaHaykinson> mattgriffin, are you positioning Ubuntu One as more of a backup system? in which case it may belong more under "maintenance"?
<IlyaHaykinson> or more of a sync/file sharing app, in which case maybe placement in chap 4 is fine.
<mattgriffin> IlyaHaykinson: sync is the principal benefit.... but it is achieved with online backup. for 10.04, there will be a desktop application (Ubuntu One Client Application - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-ubuntu-one-client-app) that will enable users to manage how Ubuntu One works for them.... so ch4 seems like a good fit.
<IlyaHaykinson> alright, sounds good.
<humphreybc> cool :)
<IlyaHaykinson> is the desktop app in alpha1 already?
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess i can fire up virtualbox and take a look :-)
<mattgriffin> IlyaHaykinson: not yet. we're keeping track of progress on the Whiteboard... it currently says "[dobey] GTK+ U1 app: INPROGRESS"
<humphreybc> by the way if anyone wants to follow me on twitter, i post a lot about the manual and ubuntu in general: http://twitter.com/humphreybc
<IlyaHaykinson> mattgriffin, gotcha, thanks.
<IlyaHaykinson> fyi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Chapter4 for an outline of the chapter as I see it.
<mattgriffin> IlyaHaykinson: np.
 * mattgriffin time to sleep. later everyone.
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc, followed
<IlyaHaykinson> ugh, XChat has "," as the default nick completion character. how counter-intuitive. should be ":"
<humphreybc> ha
<humphreybc> I use Pidgin :)
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson, i like the comma :)
<humphreybc> Ilya, nice work on the Chapter 4 sub page
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* i use pidgin on one box, xchat on this box, and mIrc on the windows box. i guess i have issues.
<humphreybc> :)
<IlyaHaykinson> wolter: :)
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: thx
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, what this new "Me" menu?
<IlyaHaykinson> i see a reference to it in some spec, but the details are in canonical's private documents repository
<IlyaHaykinson> ohh. that's the menu in the upper right
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. the shutdown/restart/status change/etc menu
<humphreybc> yup
<wolter> if anybody wants to check my work and/or provide feedback, visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Chapter6
<wolter> I am working on chapter 6 and set myself already as an assignee
<humphreybc> cool wolter i'll check it in about 30 mins, just going to have some dinner
 * humphreybc runs off to the dairy to get milk for his pasta
<adahendra1> hello,
<adahendra1> may i ask
 * humphreybc is back
<humphreybc> adahendra1: what would you like to ask?
<wolter> hey humphreybc not to annoy you, but could you check my wip of the chapter 6 if you have nothing else to do now?
<wolter> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Chapter6 just saved
<humphreybc> so wolter are you writing it on the wiki?
<humphreybc> or is that just a guide?
<wolter> humphreybc, well, i'm drafting it on the wiki
<wolter> should it be a guide instead?
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> that's cool
<humphreybc> no no you can draft on the wiki
<humphreybc> go for it
<humphreybc> i'll read it in a sec
<humphreybc> anyone know how to rebuild your apps menu?
<humphreybc> I remember there was some file in your home dir that you need to delete
<wolter> humphreybc, in the gnome panel?
<humphreybc> yep
<wolter> Hm.. roughly, I would just make a new user and replace my ~/.local/share/applications/ folder with his
<wolter> but I think that you could just delete that same directory to see what happens. Of course, keep a backup copy.
<humphreybc> yeah i'll delete it
<humphreybc> time to log out and back in
<humphreybc> that worked
<humphreybc> cheers :)
<wolter> nice :)
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> well that's all good but I just reinstalled wine and I can't seem to get it to appear in my apps menu
<humphreybc> blah
<humphreybc> i'm probably going to do a fresh install soon
<wolter> Lucid alpha I suppose?
<vish> humphreybc: ~/.config/menus/applications.menu
<humphreybc> nah karmic
<humphreybc> i wish when you uninstall a program it would remove the . directory in your home
<vish> oops wrong file!
<humphreybc> like I just went through and got rid of all these old . folders
<wolter> humphreybc, then you want to purge them
<wolter> and not just remove
<wolter> [# apt-get purge] removes configuration files
<humphreybc> i'm pretty sure i've been doing that... I choose "Complete removal"
<wolter> oh
<humphreybc> in synaptic
<wolter> ahh.. you use synaptic
<wolter> yeah.. I wish programs used ~/.config/ or ~/.local/config instead of putting their .folders all around my home dir
<wolter> such a mess
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i need to do a fresh install to test out my fresh install script
<vish> humphreybc: have you checked ~/.gnome2 ?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> i might do a fresh install tonight....
<humphreybc> all i wanna do is get photoshop working
<humphreybc> lol
<vish> ;p
<humphreybc> how stable is lucid alpha 1 for people?
<wolter> vish, is .config/menus still used?
<wolter> my application.menu file seems so outdated,
<humphreybc> because I want to use the 2.6.32 kernel, which is what i'm using atm on karmic
<vish> humphreybc: very stable surprisingly
<humphreybc> i might install alpha 2 on my main laptop
<vish> but it depends on hardware ofcourse ;)
<humphreybc> my hardware is pretty good with linux
<humphreybc> apart from my ati card, but i use the free drivers for that which kick ass with the new 2.6.32 kernel
<vish> humphreybc: one thing you will notice is how horrible the new and improved nautilus looks :/
<humphreybc> oh?
<vish> humphreybc: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png
<vish> humphreybc: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png
<vish> wolter: i had similar problems as humphrey and i removed a file and everything was reset... but i cant remember what o.0
<humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=619974
<vish> s/what/whic
<wolter> lol
<humphreybc> uh what three panes
<wolter> vim guy?
<humphreybc> see that thread
<vish> heh , maybe i was right after all > ~/.config/menus/applications.menu
<vish> that file is a bit cleaner for me ;)
 * humphreybc thinks it's pretty cool that he has 26,000 karma
<wolter> well, thats a lot of karma
<wolter> foor me at least
<humphreybc> i know it's crazy
<wolter> is it all because of the manual?
<humphreybc> oh also, if any of you have some time, at some point i'd like it if you could add a testimonial to my wiki page, for when I apply for membership sometime later this year :)
<humphreybc> wolter: yeah most of it is from the manual. I don't know why you get so much from specification tracking.
<wolter> Oh I will do so today later
<wolter> now i'm going offline soon
<humphreybc> okahy
<jaminday> Ilya are you there?
<jaminday> Does anyone know why when I right-click my name in the room list and choose 'info', it tells me my "real name" is purple?
<humphreybc> wow computer just had a meltdown
<humphreybc> oh no it violently ran out of battery and for some reason ubuntu didn't tell me
<humphreybc> jamin are you using pidgin?
<jaminday> yep
<humphreybc> in the buddy list
<humphreybc> click accounts
<humphreybc> then go to your IRC one
<humphreybc> find "edit"
<humphreybc> "edit account" sorry
<humphreybc> click the "advanced" tab
<jaminday> ah yeah i see it now
<humphreybc> does anyone ever feel they're getting too fast for the computer?
<humphreybc> i end up alt tabbing and ctrl tabbing through chrome windows so fast sometimes ubuntu can't keep up
<jaminday> hehe yeah although it beats windows! I was using it today at work and it was as slow as a donkey!
<humphreybc> yeah anything beats windows
<humphreybc> can't wait till friday my time, i'm going to get the lucid alpha 2 and do a completely fresh install on my laptop
<humphreybc> then i'm going to try out the nifty fresh install script
<jaminday> whats this install script?
<jaminday> is it one you created?
<humphreybc> yeah Ryan gave it to me a few days ago and i've played with it
<IlyaHaykinson_> PING
<IlyaHaykinson_> er
<IlyaHaykinson_> jaminday, hi
<humphreybc> lol hello
<jaminday> hey there - just got your email
<IlyaHaykinson_> jaminday: re purple, that's just the name of Pidgin's underlying connection library
 * IlyaHaykinson_ notices wolter isn't here... his checkin broke the build :)
<jaminday> ah yes ok - yeah humphreybc showed me how to change it
<jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: that's fine RE editing those chapters. I've made a note that you prefer chapters 3 & 5 so will just wait for others to respond then let you know
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, sounds good. i'll have my hands full researching / writing chapter 4, i'm sure.
<jaminday> yeah definitely
<IlyaHaykinson_> btw, i wonder if we'll have to cover https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu -- if it makes it into Lucid
<jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: yeah that's a good point
<jaminday> i guess there could be a number of changes we will need to keep on top of as it gets closer to release
<humphreybc> that probably goes for all chapters
<humphreybc> one of the reasons i'm  going to start using lucid on my main computer :)
<humphreybc> so i can see the changes!
<IlyaHaykinson_> i'm not nearly that brave, at work or on my netbook.
<IlyaHaykinson_> but i think i have a spare, nearly-headless thinkpad somewhere at work... hm.
<humphreybc> heh well hopefully lucid plays nice
<jaminday> no me neither
<jaminday> i'll probably wait till at least beta then put it on one of my machines
<humphreybc> that's what i normally do but if i'm going to do a fresh install why not lucid :P
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, i'm off to bed. l8r folks.
<humphreybc> night
<jaminday> night all - off to bed
<dutchie> bah, no pushes for ages, then the moment I do something, someone pushes and I have to fix the merge :/
<humphreybc> hahahaha
<humphreybc> damn
<humphreybc> i wonder if there is a way for us to "lock" the branch while we work on it
<dutchie> there is a way to work around, it's just I'm more used to git than bzr
<dutchie> this is the whole point of DVCSs
<humphreybc> DVCS?
<dutchie> distributed version control systems
<dutchie> ie next gen source control, bzr, git and hg as opposed to cvs/svn
<humphreybc> ah ha
<humphreybc> gotcha
 * humphreybc likes the fact his scanner now works
<humphreybc> Go to this link and mark the bug as "affecting you" https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/example-content/+bug/505873
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 505873 in example-content "Ubuntu Manual for example content in Lucid" [Undecided,New]
<humphreybc> So we can get the manual included as example content!
<XiXaQ> I just read about your project. It's great. I've been talking about this for years, and I'm very happy to see that someone has taken initiative to actually get it done. How can I help?
<XiXaQ> is the information going to be cut and pasted from wiki.u-c and help.u-c, or is it to be written from scratch to fit the intended audience?
<XiXaQ> oh. I found it, all the information I needed, I think.
<wolter> lol people keep referring to me as walter and not wolter
<wolter> in the manual titlepage proposals
<XiXaQ> :)
<XiXaQ> my name is Jo-Erlend Schinstad. You wouldn't believe the creative alternatives I've been exposed to, like JÃ¸rn Skogstad.
<wolter> Hi Jo
<wolter> hey dutchie
<dutchie> o/
<wolter> dutchie, do you know if somebody is going to push the newest table of contents into the branch?
<dutchie> the ToC is autogenerated by latex
<wolter> I could do it, and rename all the files belonging to the previous toc to $name.old
<dutchie> it'll get pushed as soon as someone moves all the content around
<wolter> yeah I know, but i mean all the chapters treat different topics now than the older ones
<dutchie> I though jmburgess was going to do it, but he doesn't seem to be around
<wolter> yeah
<wolter> he erased a file i had being working on heh, but i had a backup copy so no problem
<wolter> hm.. I am trying to get the titlepage to pdf, but I can't do it directly from inkscape without rendering errors
<wolter> the thumb viewer wont let me print it to pdf in 100% scalr
<wolter> scale
<wolter> and in latex it seems so badly rendered
<wolter> hm.. gthumb does a much better job
<wolter> but still, bad res
<dutchie> aha, jmburgess is active and doing mailing list and blueprinty stuff
<dutchie> maybe he'll come in here
<wolter> ok
<wolter> lol, the only way i can get a good pdf is by doubling the opacities of translucent images
<jmburgess> hey everyone
<dutchie> hi jmburgess
<jmburgess> hows it goin dutchie?
<dutchie> not too bad
<dutchie> first exam today
<jmburgess> lame, when did classes start?
<dutchie> as in earlier today
<jmburgess> yeah but didn't classes just start?
<dutchie> classes start for what?
<dutchie> as in the beginning of term?
<jmburgess> yeah
<dutchie> last week
<jmburgess> not much material on the exam
<jmburgess> haha
<dutchie> except I only had one day due to snow and illness
<jmburgess> ouch
<dutchie> didn't really miss much
<jmburgess> what class?
<jmburgess> yeah the first week of classes are usually pretty useless
<dutchie> exam today was critical thinking
<dutchie> one of the most ridiculous exams in the world
<jmburgess> that is must be hard to test
<jmburgess> what is your major?
<dutchie> nothing yet, start on maths next year
<dutchie> :)
<jmburgess> nice
<dutchie> this is where I have to start translating between US and UK education systems
<jmburgess> oh yeah
<jmburgess> you guys don't decide till a lot later
<dutchie> later? I thought we specialised earlier
<jmburgess> maybe I have my systems messed up
<dutchie> as in, when I head to university, I'm going to be doing *just* maths, wouldn't you being doing maths and a load of other stuff?
<jmburgess> when do you guys specialize?
<jmburgess> sorta
<jmburgess> yeah like if I wanted to go to university and just like try a bunch of stuff I could
<jmburgess> are you not in university yet?
<dutchie> no, next year
<dutchie> you do 10 subjects to GCSE, which you take at 16. Then you drop to 3/4 A levels, which you study over 2 years. Then you go to university and study one subject for 3 years
<jmburgess> gotcha
<jmburgess> so you are how old?
<dutchie> 17
<dutchie> but young for my year, so I'm in the second year of A levels
<jmburgess> that make sense
<jmburgess> that is about lined up with the US system
<jmburgess> cause when I enter university I am 18
<jmburgess> and I go for 4 years
<dutchie> yeah, I'll be doing a 4 year course
<jmburgess> math is crazy hard
<jmburgess> I like it, but I could never major in it
<dutchie> heh, well I was obviously good enough for Oxford to take a punt
<jmburgess> impressive
<jmburgess> is that where you are going next semseter?
<jmburgess> a friend of mine goes there now
<dutchie> in october
<dutchie> 10/10/10 iirc
<jmburgess> cool
<jmburgess> yeah I got to Carnegie Mellon University
 * dutchie googles
<jmburgess> its a pretty good CS and Theater/Art schol
<jmburgess> school*
<jmburgess> fun combo
<jmburgess> I think we are like 2nd or 3rd for CS in the country
<dutchie> sounds good
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> bug 1
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)
<dutchie> :(
<dutchie> gnome bug 1
<jmburgess> :(
<dutchie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=606669
<manualbot> Gnome bug 606669 in general "User agent does not comply to the spec" [Trivial,Resolved: fixed]
<jmburgess> is that a bot you wrote?
<dutchie> no, not at all
<jmburgess> it just runs on your comp
<dutchie> yeah
<dutchie> http://sourceforge.net/projects/supybot/
<dutchie> wow, that bug got fixed without shouting
<wolter> hi jmburgess
<wolter> I was wondering if I could help you adapt all the chapters to the new toc
<wolter> I could rename all old chapters to chapter#.tex.old
<wolter> and make new ones with the respective title
<wolter> but just if you need any help with it
<jmburgess> wolter: I did that earlier this morning
<jmburgess> wolter: so it should be all good now
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> nice
<jmburgess> yep you can bzr pull and it should be in working order
<wolter> jmburgess, also, do you know any good method to convert a png image to pdf?
<wolter> I have tried various ways
<wolter> when you do it in inkscape translucent objects seem to lose half of their opacity
<wolter> so it is not optimal to double the opacities just to print a good pdf... if there was any other method, it would be nice to know
<jmburgess> wolter: haha I am actually currently googling that now
<jmburgess> So I am not sure sadly
<wolter> oh good
<jmburgess> I will look into an email you if I find anything great
<wolter> I found this png2pdf app, but it requires me to install lots of stuff, so I wasn't going to do it unless somebody else knew a method.
<jmburgess> yeah, I gotta head out
<wolter> good
<jmburgess> I will talk to you guys later
<wolter> ok
<wolter> you could use memoserv anyway
<wolter> memoserv send wolter "message" (with /msg though)
<humphreybc> what chapter are we covering DVD playback, codecs and flash?
<wolter> I would say in part ii
<wolter> Or maybe part 3
<wolter> oh well, no no
<wolter> sorry, I thought you meant video convertion and stuff
<wolter> I would say in the default applications
<wolter> say, DVD and codecs to totem
<wolter> and flash to firefox
<wolter> Hey jmburgess, I pulled the latest revision and I saw that the latex files still refer to the old Table of Contents
<humphreybc> does anyone know whether word wrapping in editors like gedit have an effect on the document after it's rendered?
<ianto> No effect whatsoever
<humphreybc> oh neat
<ianto> Notepad might mess up the formatting but Gedit, Kate etc work just as if they spread the entire length
<humphreybc> cool
<wolter> yeah.. wrapping is just a gtk option in textview widgets
<wolter> ianto, i didn't know you were working in the manual, did I?
<wolter> oh i think i have asked this before, have i not?
<wolter> oh yeah i did.. sorry there heh
<wolter> Hey humphreybc I was going to ask you (and suggest) that if we could use the text in the package descriptions in software center instead of making up new descriptions?
<wolter> those seem pretty objective
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-12
<humphreybc> yeah we probably could
<humphreybc> have you all gone here and marked the bug as affecting you?
<humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/example-content/+bug/505873
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 505873 in example-content "Ubuntu Manual for example content in Lucid" [Wishlist,New]
<wolter> humphreybc, wouldn't you prefer the manual to be in the desktop?
<humphreybc> i would
<humphreybc> this is just the first step
<humphreybc> if we get it as example content then it will be easy to ask them to add a link on the desktop
<wolter> ok
<wolter> yeah I thought that was your intention :) just making sure
<humphreybc> i also want a big fat link here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
<humphreybc> right beside the big green "download ubuntu" button I want another button that says "download the official manual"
<wolter> That'd be so nice
<wolter> humphreybc, I have a couple of questions
<wolter> #1 requires you to read a piece of my chapter blueprint
<wolter> 1. Do I need to meticulously describe how to get the basic operations done in applications such as Software Sources, Ubuntu Software Center and Synaptic Package Manager, or rather just explain the purpose of each?
<wolter> the other one i don't remember
<wolter> but I would like to suggest a section in the advanced part of the manual to explain how to build packages
<wolter> and how simple it can be
<humphreybc> wolter: um software center is pretty easy, you could probably just say something like "search for the application you require or find it under the categories and then click install to let Ubuntu do the rest" - I think they're working on the software center in Lucid to make it even easier
<humphreybc> Software Sources and Synaptic you will have to go into a bit more detail
<humphreybc> but not a lot of detail
<humphreybc> and as for building packages, that's too advanced even for the advanced section I'm afraid
<wolter> oh ok
<humphreybc> yeah sorry
<humphreybc> how big do we think the PDF will be?
<wolter> well, i think about 40 pages?
<wolter> don't you think?
<wolter> the last time i built the manual it was 21 pages long, but not at all finished as we all know
<humphreybc> no i mean size
<humphreybc> it's about 150kb at the moment
<humphreybc> but with images
<humphreybc> and another 20 pages or so
<humphreybc> it'll be what, 2mb?
 * humphreybc is talking to Jorge Castro who packages the example content for the releases
 * humphreybc he says we need to squeeze every kilobyte out of it 
 * humphreybc "me:Â Â And you personally, think it's a good project?"
 * humphreybc "Jorge:Â Â yeah of course!we definately need it!"
 * humphreybc has registered a new blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/optimization
<wolter> nice work humphreybc :)
<humphreybc> we're on our way!
<wolter> i will send an article that may seem interesting to all the manual writers to the mailing lists
<humphreybc> ok
<wolter> humphreybc, do you think I should write always with a semi-paranoic point of view?
<humphreybc> what do you mean?
<wolter> like, in deb packages i should warn people to not install every deb package they see
<wolter> because anybody could make one
<wolter> right?
<humphreybc> yeah that would be a good idea
<humphreybc> nice link
<wolter> thanks
<humphreybc> i wonder if we should do some research
<humphreybc> i might start a thread on UF with 5 questions
<humphreybc> for content
<humphreybc> something like "If you could definitely have one topic in the manual, what would it be?" and "Would you prefer lots of screenshots to show you how to do things, or would you prefer step by step guides?" etc
<humphreybc> but i'd need help from the team to formulate five good useful questions
<humphreybc> and of course we will have to aim it at Ubuntu newcomers - so we'll have something like "Remember to back when you first started using Ubuntu, and answer these questions as if you were that person back then:" or something
<humphreybc> as well as putting it in the absolute beginners forum
<humphreybc> so, guys, ideas for questions please
<humphreybc> what do we NEED to know?
<humphreybc> perhaps we could give them the list of default apps and ask them to put them in order of which should be highest priority/include the most detail
<wolter> ok, I think we should open a page for this in the wiki
<wolter> will you do it?
<wolter> There we can draft questions
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> i'll start a new apge
<humphreybc> hold up one sec
<wolter> and separate from that, anybody can either roam the #ubuntu channel for frequent questions, the forums, or even make threads like the one you suggested
<wolter> good
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/survey
<humphreybc> tell me your ideas in here and i'll add them to the wiki (so we don't have two people editing the same page)
<humphreybc> refresh the page, i've just added some questions
<wolter> ok
<humphreybc> oops screwed up the headers, refresh again now
<wolter> well, I have heard of tons of people having problems with their ATI video cards and with pulseaudio
<wolter> so we could have a section for hardware problems
<humphreybc> i was sort of meaning for this questionnaire to just be a general thing
<humphreybc> with only a few questions
<wolter> oh sorry
<wolter> yes
<humphreybc> you know, like it covers the whole concept of the manual
<wolter> hm.. so, these questions will be part of some poll to get feedback from the community?
<humphreybc> okay well let's start with what we need to know
<humphreybc> wolter, yeah kind of
<humphreybc> it's also a bit of a promo for the manual, and to get some more feedback from the community
<humphreybc> what do we need to know from users that we don't know already?
<humphreybc> we need to know how highly they value say, getting online, compared to learning about Ubuntu One?
<wolter> Well, what i just said may be a topic in the manual
<wolter> like a hardware support
<wolter> section
<wolter> and well, the stuff about pulseaudio could be covered in the troubleshooting section
<humphreybc>  that's chapter 4
<wolter> in fact (sorry for taking the topic temporarily elsewhere) i think we should have also a troubleshooting wiki page where we all suggest troubles to shoot described in the final troubleshooting chapter of the manual
<wolter> because it wouldn't be intelligent to have problem-solving spread all around the manual
<wolter> instead we should have like, "if you have problems with this and that, look for a solution in chapter 8: troubleshooting. Anyway, lets get back to your topci
<wolter> let me think of other questions
<wolter> about how many questions would you like to have?
<humphreybc> yeah i'll create a troubleshooting page soon
<humphreybc> well 5 - 8 questions
<humphreybc> refresh the page
<humphreybc> tell me what you think
<wolter> I think the questions you have there are very useful
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> can you think of anything else?
<wolter> hm, but I would include, in the first question, that the topic has to be ubuntu specific
<wolter> for example, to avoid stuff like "a how-to-use-audacity tutorial"
<humphreybc> okay
<wolter> because there are people in the forums that don't know where they are standing
<wolter> let me think of a question myself
<wolter> What do you dislike about ubuntu/
<wolter> ?
<wolter> maybe?
<wolter> Or, if you were to stop using ubuntu,  why would it be
<wolter> ?
<wolter> (also, how about a section in the wiki where we the team suggest potential content?)
<humphreybc> I don't think that question is specific to us
<humphreybc> it's more a general Ubuntu thing, rather than something to do with the manual
<humphreybc> or
<humphreybc> I suppose if we ask that
<humphreybc> and get an overwhelming response like "lack of hardware documentation" then we know we need to make chapter 4 awesome
<humphreybc> is that what you mean?
<humphreybc> refresh the page again, added another couple of questions. I think that's almost all we need, really. Unless you can think of some more, I might go ahead and create the UF thread.
<humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8650191
<humphreybc> now we wait ....
<humphreybc> look how many people we have actively working on the project: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+topcontributors
<wolter> yes humphreybc that is what i meant :)
<wolter> we could get some important info
<wolter> such as, "ubuntu doesn't have an application for ______"
<wolter> so if there actually is one, but it is buried deep, we can point that out
<wolter> that is, if it is general purpose
<wolter> humphreybc, sorry for my unanounced afk-ness
<wolter> I had a break from writing chap 5
<wolter> but i am now more oriented than i ever was
<humphreybc> no probs
<wolter> I will push something later, like in a couple of hourse or more
<wolter> lol, I wish I saw myself on that list
<wolter> All i need to do is push my changes to get karma?
<humphreybc> yeah you get branch stuff
<wolter> humphreybc, its getting damn good feedback the thread
<wolter> nice work
<wolter> I am working on 1) of post #5 :)
<wolter> i'm going afk right now, see you in an hour or such
<humphreybc> yeah but wolter an admin moved our thread to the community cafe
<humphreybc> I've emailed the forum council to find out why
<wolter> hmm.. how about that.. the ubuntu pocket guide uses the corner strip to declare the version of ubuntu it is for
<wolter> humphreybc, have you thought about contacting the ubuntu pocket guide author?
<wolter> Oh hi brishu, I read your post in the forums
<wolter> Did you find out about the manual this way
<wolter> o angelus sorry
<angelus> wolter, yup ...
<wolter> Good
<wolter> are you going to help out?
<angelus> i hope so ...
<angelus> im looking at it and seeing if there is anything i can tackle ..
<wolter> angelus, i am working in a big chapter.. chapter 5
<wolter> you know where to find the table of contents?
<angelus> gimme a second to get there
<angelus> i'm at the chapter 5 page right now ... you are doing software packaging in Ubuntu am i correct ?
<wolter> yes
<wolter> a lot of people have suggested us to go big on that section
<wolter> and the good thing is, its something really easy
<angelus> yup i would say so ... especially since you can do thhe software management center ...
<angelus> err ... ignore that
<angelus> i meant ... i can help out with the Software Center ... as well as little bit on How to add repositories the GUI way on to the software sources .. ,
<angelus> id say go the vi /etc/apt/sources.list ... but i think there was an agreement to not get into too much of the terminal/CLI stuff till later in the book am i correct ??
<wolter> yes well
<wolter> I am writing for both methods sometimes
<wolter> but without getting into detail
<wolter> however, if the team wants me to wipe those parts off I will
 * humphreybc is talking to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project on how we can get their support for the manual
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<wolter> oh nice
 * humphreybc the Learning project is officially backed by Canonical
<wolter> hmm.. why can I not use uline?
<humphreybc> what's uline?
<wolter> underline, according to the wikibook
<humphreybc> hmm
<wolter> I may have to review the writing format guidelines
<humphreybc> maybe it's deprecated
<wolter> Is underline not used?
<wolter> oh
<humphreybc> i just use bold
<wolter> I am using underline for addresses
<humphreybc> where abouts/
<wolter> like Applications > Administration > Software Sources
<wolter> what should I use?
<wolter> and for file addresses
<wolter> as in /etc/apt/sources.list
<humphreybc> not sure
<brishu> wolter, i would italicize the addresses, or put them in a monospace
<wolter> yeah, i will italize while I test
<wolter> I think this things should be defined, if not already
<humphreybc> they might be
<humphreybc> talk to joe?
<brishu> wolter, i have the Ubuntu Pocket Guide in front of me and they are italicizing the Menu Addresses(i.e. Applications->Games->Tertis)
<brishu> and monospace w/ dotted underline for folder addresses (/home)
<IlyaHaykinson> i recommend doing <b>Parent</b> &rarr; <b>Child</b> &rarr; etc
<IlyaHaykinson> well, rather, the latex equivalent of these
<IlyaHaykinson> also, since Software Sources already lets ppl edit the sources list, i don't think there's a strong need to tell ppl to edit a file manually...
<brishu> IlyaHaykinson, but the easiest way to edit the sources normally is sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list, which we will need the terminal for ...
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson, yeah, but I am just letting them know that software sources edits that file, in case they want to do anything with it... do you think I should not mention that?
<brishu> id say a blurb on how to do it on the GUI, then a Link to the editing sources.list section(if we have one), for those interested
<brishu> s/blurb/section
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, i wouldn't mention it. every tool in the GUI edits some file or another.
<wolter> brishu, well, we are not basing our manual on the ubuntu pocket guide
<brishu> sorry ...
<wolter> haha, no problem
<IlyaHaykinson>  i would avoid discussing manual editing of things unless that's really the only way to do something
<IlyaHaykinson> or unless it's vital for troubleshooting
<wolter> I also think that whoever is making the style definitions should make a single \thing{} for command lines
<IlyaHaykinson> it's like a beginner's manual for Windows trying to direct people (even optionally) into the Registry
<humphreybc> talk to jmburgess about style guide
<wolter> ok
<humphreybc> or dutchie
<IlyaHaykinson> there should probably be two different code commands -- one for inline filenames etc, and one for actual snippets (i.e. standalone code sections or the like)
<wolter> lol, the last times i have tried to install something through software center I have not been able to do it without the authetification thing bothering me
<wolter> what latex editors do you use?
<wolter> so IlyaHaykinson you would say to not touch the details much when writting the manual?
<IlyaHaykinson> hm. my preference is for a medium level of detail -- not just tell people to use an application, but point them to a particular screen; explain the contents of the screen, but not go into telling people about every single button.
<wolter> ok
<IlyaHaykinson> basically, tell them how to do the most common things so that it's possible to follow along. and then hint or make a cursory mention of the other, slightly more advanced things.
<wolter> and what latex editor do you use?
<IlyaHaykinson> at least that's how i would approach it.
<IlyaHaykinson> oh. i use emacs.
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess i could as well use gedit here. i treat it as pure text, basically.
<wolter> what can I do when there is a "text conflict" in a file?
<wolter> nvm
<wolter> bzr resolve FILE (for the record)
<humphreybc> everyone check Planet Ubuntu in about 10 minutes
<wolter> wow nice
<humphreybc> I think you will be very pleased :)
<wolter> is it in the fridge?
<wolter> or some other blog?
<wolter> I saw a bullet in the fridge in the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter #175 that says Ubuntu Manual Project
<humphreybc> http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<humphreybc> scroll down a wee bit
<brishu> the picture (is it the proposed-cover?) looks awesome. :)
<humphreybc> yes it's a proposed cover
<humphreybc> one of many proposed ones!
<brishu> kool :) ...
<humphreybc> add your feedback if you like
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
<wolter> humphreybc, nice!!
<wolter> my lynx :)
<humphreybc> indeed!
<wolter> humphreybc, this feels so nice.. the project coming out so well
<humphreybc> yep we're doing good
<humphreybc> although I can't help but feel we're not getting the content done.... maybe it's just me because I haven't written in about a week
<humphreybc> I hope it's not "all talk but no action" kind of thing
<humphreybc> might pay to have a look at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/PDFs
<wolter> well, I have done a big portion on chap 5
<wolter> its already on the branch
<wolter> for good :)
<wolter> this bzr tool is amazing
<humphreybc> man wolter, nice work!
<wolter> do you think so?
<wolter> :)
<humphreybc> yeah i will have a read soon!
<humphreybc> do have a look at that link i posted up above
<humphreybc> we can't copy it tho
<wolter> oh haha, i thought you had read it and that was why you said "nice work!"
<wolter> lol
<wolter> should I get student?
<wolter> wow that document is big
<wolter> hm.. i could even help translate that book to spanish
<wolter> that'd give me karma too :)
<humphreybc> you could
<humphreybc> student english yea
<humphreybc> 60mb i know
<humphreybc> 357 pages
<humphreybc> it's a paid-for manual written about Ubuntu 8.04
<humphreybc> we can't copy it, it would be illegal
<humphreybc> and we don't want to either
<wolter> yeah
<humphreybc> okay wolter i'm going to have a read now
<wolter> good
<wolter> cant wait for your feedback
<wolter> I don't know if I'm making it too long or if its just nice
<humphreybc> I'll add comments as I go in the tex file and then push it through for you
<wolter> nice :)
<humphreybc> i might assign myself as the editor for chapter 5 :)
<wolter> good :)
<wolter> I have written a testimonial for you .. hope it helps you get into the members board whenever you want to
<humphreybc> awesome I just saw that, i'll read it in a sec - almost done adding comments to chapter 5 :)
 * humphreybc just pushed up a new revision with changes
<wolter> good
<humphreybc> have a look :)
<humphreybc> nice testimonial wolter, much appreciated :)
<humphreybc> if you ever go for membership then i'll gladly write you one and support you
<wolter> yeah well, I would like one membership, but my efforts in the community are not even near to getting me a membership
<wolter> maybe someday, I say
<wolter> I have read logs of meetings.. those guys are cruel
<humphreybc> they can be yes
<humphreybc> although
<humphreybc> if you're nice to them then they're nice back
<humphreybc> I got declined at my one last year, but they were very nice about it and offered to help me work on my stuff to get my membership sorted. popey was actually one of the guys on the council
<popey> hah
<popey> we're not cruel
<popey> some people apply for membership without even reading the guidelines
<popey> effectively wasting our time
<humphreybc> oh yeah i know
<humphreybc> a lot of people have an ill-informed idea of what membership is and means
<popey> indeed
<humphreybc> so apply without really any experience :S
<humphreybc> I might apply around june or something
<popey> I've even had people message me asking what is the absolute minimum they need to do to get membership
<humphreybc> depends how this manual pans out
<popey> because all they want is the @ubuntu.com email address
<popey> which fails to see the whole point of membership
<humphreybc> indeed. I read the article in this weeks' newsletter about membership which might clear some stuff up
<humphreybc> when do you think i should be ready to apply popey?
<popey> thats impossible to answer
<humphreybc> heh
<wolter> haha, the @ubuntu.com email address was one big reason why I wanted the membership
<humphreybc> impossible? so it's actually harder than time travel?
<wolter> and because it is not what it is all about is basically why I have not wasted your time ;)
<humphreybc> wolter: nice
<popey> the whole point of membership is to reward significant and sustained contribution to the project
<wolter> humphreybc, I would read the log of the meeting when they rejected you
<popey> it's not a badge
<wolter> and actually try to think how would they act now with all your work
<popey> so the goal should be to contribute
<popey> the goal should not be membership
<wolter> popey, indeed
<humphreybc> heh well that's what i'm doing, i just need to do more xD
<popey> i didnt apply until a couple of years after I started contributing
<wolter> I can't lie saying I did not want an @ubuntu.com email address, which is my point haha
<humphreybc> wolter: what do you think of the feedback?
<humphreybc> (just getting on topic again)
<wolter> humphreybc, I agree with 95% of it
<wolter> I will start working on the implementation tomorrow
<wolter> humphreybc, I disagree in that we should not show terminals until the second part of the manual
<wolter> I think we should provide a slight description on how to do certain things
<wolter> and then link to chap8, in case the reader does not understand
<wolter> but of course, the manual is yours and I will honor your desicion
<wolter> decision*
<wolter> I mean, its ours, but I still do
<wolter> Hm so, I will go to sleep now
<wolter> It is very late. Perhaps the day I have stayed up the longest time. Its 4:30 AM here and I am starting to feel like a miscarriaged person
<wolter> So, good-bye. Sorry for my ranting and, if you have anything to say, make good use of the memoserv
<wolter> you know.. /msg memoserv help
<wolter> bye all.
<humphreybc> so brishu, who are you?
<humphreybc> dutchie, ping
 * humphreybc can't believe that the software center idea was started over 4 years ago!
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=show&redirect=SoftwareStore
<humphreybc> dutchie: ping
<humphreybc> right i'm off to bed now fellas
<humphreybc> night
<pererik87> 99 unread messages.. guys??
<pererik87> Chapter 5 -> "Synaptic Package Manager" This is removed from lucid.
<pererik87> !ping
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<ianto> pererik87:  What's the problem?
<humphreybc> Hi all
<humphreybc> check out the main forums page
<humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/
<aeonspire>  nice :)
<popey> hmmm
<popey> I am concerned about the amount of focus and drive you're putting on getting the manual on the cd
<humphreybc> oh?
<humphreybc> how so
<popey> considering no other application or data gets _considered_ for inclusion on the cd until it at least _exists_!
<popey> :)
<popey> fact is right now the manual doesn't exist (in terms of completeness)
<humphreybc> true
<popey> It also puts pressure on the ubuntu project
<popey> because you're going round asking people a question to which the answer will almost certainly be "yes"
<humphreybc> what do you mean?
<popey> well, what I'm saying is get it written first and foremost
<popey> then packaged
<popey> tested
<popey> then request inclusion on the cd
<humphreybc> Right but by then it will be too late for Lucid
<popey> or rather, inclusion into the "main" section of the repo
<humphreybc> Sure I understand what you mean, that would be fine if the project was started maybe 6 months ago
<popey> but the problem with the way you're doing it now (and this is my opinion) is that you are putting pressure on the project
<aeonspire> but thats not necessarily a bad thing
<popey> by going round getting people to "me too" a bug , and +1 a forum post
<popey> it is if the manual doesnt get finished in time
<humphreybc> how so? I would think that I'm putting pressure on our project, more than Ubuntu itself.
<humphreybc> And the manual will be finished in time, I can guarantee it.
<popey> you cant
<humphreybc> I know that's a bold thing to say
<popey> you absolutely cant
<popey> what if you're hit by a bus tomorrow?
<humphreybc> Have you been following the branch?
<popey> yes
<popey> its not about that
<popey> enthusiasm counts for a lot!
<popey> as does the amount of work you've done
<popey> but just hear me out a moment
<humphreybc> Well I'd like to think i'm safer than that, and besides, we've got people who could quite easily take over from where I left off if something did go wrong.
<humphreybc> Sure i'll listen
<popey> ok
<popey> lets suppose you don't get one of the steps complete, whether that is completing the manual itself (which may happen), packaging it, or more importantly getting it into main.
<popey> if you get it into main then someone needs to be responsible for its maintenance
<popey> and _then_ and only then, there's the option of getting it on the CD
<humphreybc> right - it's a long shot, I know
<popey> sure, and I'm not saying it wont happen
<popey> my concern is the amount of focus on getting it on the cd puts pressure on ubuntu because...
<popey> even _if_ you did all those things, what if the project said "no"
<popey> for whatever reason
<popey> the project would look like prize assholes because you've rounded up a posse of people who say it should be on the cd
<popey> and thats not the way ubuntu works
<popey> we dont vote for what goes on the cd
<humphreybc> I realize that. Being on the CD isn't the be all and end all of our project
<popey> exactly
<popey> but it's the 2nd question on your forum post
<humphreybc> It's an ultimate goal, you have to reach for the stars to get to the moon.
<popey> _before_ anything about content!
<popey> surely content comes first, then distribution
<humphreybc> The questions aren't in any particular order
<popey> it doesnt work like that :)
<popey> i can see a lot of value in the work you're doing
<popey> and personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea
<popey> but it needs to exist first :)
<humphreybc> Well, what I can say is that I get things done - it's what I do. Unfortunately as projects like Ubuntu get larger and larger and are driven by companies such as Canonical, a fair amount of bureaucracy and stuffing around gets introduced that leads to delays for the end user. A lot can be achieved in four months with the right attitude and support, we've got both of those. Unfortunately Ubuntu has got into this rhythm of projec
<humphreybc> Sure if I could rewind 6 months then I would have made sure the project was finished before asking to include on a CD, but, as I say above, I need to start raising awareness early on (even when the project is in its early stages) to start some of this decision making in motion. :)
<popey> i think you're okay for awareness
<popey> I'm also concerned that you're pissing off quite a few people who have been in the project for a while
<dutchie> ah, humphreybc, you pinged earlier
<popey> especially the documentation team
<humphreybc> That's always bound to happen.
<popey> no it isnt
<popey> thats why we have a code of conduct
<humphreybc> The docs team are looking at it the wrong way, they're seeing it as competition instead of collaboration.
<humphreybc> dutchie: was just going to ask how your exam went, but i'll talk to you later :)
<popey> they were here first humphreybc
<popey> _you_ are the one competing, and not collaborating
<humphreybc> I'm getting to collaboration, it's on my list of things to do - believe me. We've just started collaborating with the Community Learning Project
<popey> the reason I mention it is because on the "justification" page you're quite rude about the official documentation
<popey> "The Ubuntu Manual will have all the information in one place, instead of spread out all over the internet." - the ubuntu documentation _is_ in one place http://doc.ubuntu.com/
<popey> "It will be easier to read, and will incorporate more screenshots and step by step tutorials." - implying the official documentation isnt easy to read, if thats so, collaborate and fix it!
<humphreybc> By in one place I mean in a single file. So maybe the justification wording needs some work.
<popey> "It will be written in a consistent style, so it is easier to follow." - the documentation team _has_ a style guide,
<humphreybc> Yes, but just because something exists doesn't mean people will follow it.
<popey> "And, as much as the Ubuntu Docs team try to keep everything up-to-date, often documentation remains unchanged from its original release. (In some cases, as old as 6.06) Our manual will be 100% current for every release." - there is no possible way you can guarantee that
<popey> the documentation team _do_ follow the style guide!
<humphreybc> Okay, okay, well as much as I'm enjoying this debate I'm afraid i'm going to have to have a shower and get some breakfast before I head off to uni
<humphreybc> But I am keen to continue talking with you later
<humphreybc> It's good to get some more opinions from the community
<popey> would be good to listen and take on board those opinions rather than dismiss them :(
<humphreybc> I'm not dismissing them, I am listening to what you're saying. I'll cut back on the requests for attention - the project has enough contributors now.
<humphreybc> I am planning on working a lot more on content this week. Don't worry :)
<popey> *sigh*
<humphreybc> And on that note I'll be off! I've got a full day of uni so I won't be back for another 8 hours or so, popey, I suppose you'll be sleeping or something around then.
<popey> yeah
<dutchie> popey: personally, I think there is a niche for the ubuntu manual if we're careful to keep a bird's eye view of things
<humphreybc> Okay, you can send me an email if you like,
<humphreybc> cheerio guys
<popey> dutchie: please dont fall into the trap of not reading what i wrote
<popey> "19:08:11 < popey> and personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea"
<aeonspire> i completely understand what you mean popey
<dutchie> must have missed that in my quick scan of proceedings
<dutchie> apologies
<popey> np
<aeonspire> I think lucid is very very ambitious but I'd propose to aim for April and when it's not ready everyone hopefully can agree that it takes a little more time to make it perfect and nobody loses face
<popey> he is incredibly enthusiastic and is working hard on the manual, and it's to be applauded
<aeonspire> the pressure can benefit the project
<popey> the rudeness can only hurt it
<aeonspire> true
<popey> he's likely to piss the doc team off (more than he has already) with those wiki pages, and then to pronounce that it will be updated for every release... who is responsible for documentation..
<popey> the doc team
<popey> if he decides to get married, travel for a year, or drops dead then there is a legacy left for someone to pick up
<dutchie> yeah, I'm aware that the folks in the doc team aren't best pleased with what's going on here
<popey> which I am sure could happen, but making bold guarantees is not the way to do it
<aeonspire> I think it will not be ready for Lucid
<dutchie> I think it'll be close
<aeonspire> hopefully yes
<popey> yeah, it would be great to have a finished manual, especially on the cd
<aeonspire> what he says about the doc as it is right now is often quite true
<aeonspire> but maybe he needs to be more diplomatic :)
<aeonspire> a manual that's included has to be for the absolute newcomers
<aeonspire> advanced users probably know where to find the existing doc and how to use it
<humphreybc> actually, scratch that I've changed my mind. I'm not too fussed about spending my morning in a 3 hour economics lecture, I might just read over the notes later on!
<humphreybc> so, popey, what is your suggestion?
<popey> tone down the justifications page for a start
<popey> it really dismisses the hard work the doc team do
<humphreybc> Righto i'll do that right now
<popey> thanks, its much appreciated
<humphreybc> no worries
<humphreybc> I don't want to alienate the commnunity
<popey> I'm impressed you guys switched to latex :)
<aeonspire> The Community Docs are excellent, but 'unfortunately' are not structured 'for complete beginners' and do not 'necessarily' follow one 'guideline'.
<aeonspire> how about something like that?
<humphreybc> sounds good to me aeonspire
 * popey trots off to make fish pie
<dutchie> on less controversial matters, I think we need a way to compress the list of contributors down
<dutchie> like columns
<humphreybc> The credits?
<humphreybc> Yes you're right. Bullet points won't work either.
<humphreybc> That's just a temporary thing
<aeonspire> maybe emphasize that the docs are targeted at users with at least a little experience and that they are good like this for them
<aeonspire> that there isn't really a competition here
<humphreybc> Sure. That's the truth, we're not trying to emulate the docs - we can't go into as much detail.
<aeonspire> exactly
<vish> aeonspire: mentioning "competition" isnt really necessary... it trys to put more stuff in for the imagination :)
<aeonspire> of course you don't have to say it like that :D
<dutchie> does it actually *mention* the docs at all at the moment?
<aeonspire> the manual, as far as i understood, is meant to be a little like the quick start guide you get with a new product
 * dutchie greps
<dutchie> aeonspire: yeah, that's how I see it
<aeonspire> and that's just something that isn't there yet
<dutchie> "grep -ri 'help\.ubuntu\.com' ." says no :(
<vish> IMO , justification page can be more about what the manual wants to be and less of what the docs isnt
<humphreybc> okay, i'm working on it :)
<humphreybc> (open to suggestions please)
<aeonspire> but it should state at least a little how it is different from those
<aeonspire> without judging them. i know you didn't want to do that but you could read it like that if you want to
 * dutchie adds a little "What this manual isn't" section to the prologue
<humphreybc> dutchie: heh
<humphreybc> The reason I was a wee bit.... rude.. about other projects was because of the response I initially got from the docs team
<humphreybc> They basically said "this is a waste of time, why bother? It's been tried before and failed, so it will never work."
<aeonspire> so it will prove them wrong :) but you basically can do it without them but not against them i think
<humphreybc> how's this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> oh yeah we sort of need someone for this blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/feedbackuf
<humphreybc> Especially now that thread is featured on the UF home page
<humphreybc> I would love to do it myself but I'm just too busy
<dutchie> right, one "What this manual isn't" section written and pushed
<dutchie> time for some food
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> food - that seems like a good idea
<pererik87> ianto: no problems...
<ianto> pererik87:  Good to hear :)
<humphreybc> ?
<pererik87> haha:P
<wolter> Hi humphreybc are you here right now?
<humphreybc> wolter: sure am buddy, what's up?
<wolter> I disagree on the way you ordered the subtopics of chapter 5
<wolter> I think some things need to be introduced before others
<wolter> well, not really.. hm
<wolter> I think i can work it out.. ill complain later if necessary :)
<humphreybc> hmm?
<humphreybc> I didn't re order much did I?
<humphreybc> or do you mean the ToC overhaul a few days ago?
<wolter> no
<wolter> no no.. is that you put software center like all the way up
<wolter> well, after software management
<wolter> but its fine really
<wolter> because most of the people will only read that part, according to the forum feedback
<humphreybc> yea.. well they'll want to know about software center before anything else
<humphreybc> actually
<humphreybc> it should come after a brief introduction to how software works
<humphreybc> but that's in the prologue for now
<humphreybc> I'm thinking it could be moved to Chapter 5. But really, software management is one of the biggest differences between Windows/Mac and Ubuntu.
<humphreybc> that's why I stuck it in the prologue
<wolter> oh yes
<wolter> mhm.. and a big reason why many people get scared off
<humphreybc> true
<wolter> but what i focused on doing was writing how ubuntu's software management was better
<humphreybc> so we need to make it clear it's simpler than windows..
<wolter> than that of windows or mac
<humphreybc> yeah i know, what you've written is good
<humphreybc> you've got the basics done great - you just need to polish your phrasing and word choice etc
<wolter> yeah
<wolter> humphreybc, what latex editor do you use?
<humphreybc> I just use gedit
<wolter> I know an editor that renders your latex code as you type, in case you want it
<wolter> at least for me, its easier to concentrate when I don't see all those \textsymbols{going on} all around
<aeonspire> gedit rocks :)
<dutchie> coughvimcough
<wolter> lol
<wolter> brb
<wolter> like in an hour
<humphreybc> what's the one that renders latex as you write?
<dutchie> lyx maybe
<dutchie> but that's not quite latex
 * humphreybc is getting some breakfast
 * humphreybc is putting two new title page proposals from David Nel on the wiki
 * dutchie renames all the files and folders 
 * dutchie dislikes bzr
 * dutchie wants git :(
<humphreybc> hahahaha
<humphreybc> what's wrong with bzr
<dutchie> I don't like it
<dutchie> I just renamed all of the stuff with mv, then tried to tell bzr about it, and it broke
<dutchie> so now I'm having to do it all again with bzr mv instead
<humphreybc> perhaps you could just use bzr add?
<dutchie> I'm trying to preserve metadata and thigns
<dutchie> things*
<humphreybc> oh ok
<dutchie> done
<functionofxy> Hello. I'm a new editor in the project.
<functionofxy> I want to be sure that I'm following etiquette--if I see a typo in a chapter that's not mine, can I correct and commit?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-13
<functionofxy> I'm kind of new at this. I just edited chapter 9's .tex.
<functionofxy> I committed and merged
<functionofxy> now do i push?
<functionofxy> or send?
<functionofxy> OK guys--Looks like I screwed up. It was my first time with bzr and I seem to have renamed everything? I can no longer make. Please forgive me =[. I would really appreciate some assistance cleaning up my spilled milk.
<godbyk> Hi. I just saw your project online and wanted my help with any LaTeX or book design issues you might have.  (I've subscribed to the mailing list, but if there's anything immediately I can help with, feel free to let me know!)
<godbyk> s/wanted my/wanted to offer my/
<humphreybc> hi godbyk, welcome to the team
<humphreybc> have you got experience in LaTeX?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Yeah, I've designed and typset one book with LaTeX (http://kevin.godby.org/ShinyHappyUsers.pdf) and am the developer of a LaTeX document class based on the design of Edward Tufte's books (http://code.google.com/p/tufte-latex/).
<humphreybc> oh neat
<humphreybc> well jmburgess and dutchie are the two LaTeX guys around here
<humphreybc> I mean all the writers know LaTeX, but they have been working on the formatting and template etc
<godbyk> Cool.
<humphreybc> We do need more help with quite a lot of LaTeX stuff - polishing up things like definition and margin notes, formatting, chapter headings, we need better way to display the credits without using bullet points
<humphreybc> inserting images etc
<humphreybc> dutchie, jmburgess: ping
<godbyk> Is there a style guide for the writers?  There are currently a lot of inconsistencies in some of the nit-picky areas (like quotation marks, dashes, displayed code).
<humphreybc> yep there is one that's a work in progress. You could help by enhancing it :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
<humphreybc> Once it's a bit more in depth I will add it as a link on the main wiki menu bar
<godbyk> Thanks for the link.
<godbyk> Looks like my two pet peeves are top on the list. :-)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> well yeah basically you're welcome to grab the branch and start fiddling. Add in comments so the others know what you've done and when you push changes be sure to make the description detailed. Talk to dutchie and jmburgess - I'm sure they'll love your help.
<godbyk> Do you know if the current design is pretty much where everyone wants it to be? Or is it all up in the air still?
<humphreybc> design ie the colour scheme/font/indentation etc?
<jmburgess> hey everone
<godbyk> Yeah, the colors, layout, typefaces, etc.
<jmburgess> whats up?
<jmburgess> I see latex related things
<jmburgess> whats the question?
<godbyk> jmburgess: I was just offering to help out with any LaTeX- or design-related stuff.
<jmburgess> godbyk: I feel like you are far more hard core latex user than me
<jmburgess> haha
<godbyk> Heh.. and I'm still learning.
<jmburgess> yeah latex is huge
<godbyk> (Seems like I'll never know all the ins and outs of TeX!)
<jmburgess> yep
<jmburgess> but yeah I am working on getting like sidebars, and note boxes to work
<jmburgess> which doesn't seem hard
<jmburgess> just school is starting up so my free time is dwindling
<jmburgess> godbyk: would you like something to do?
<humphreybc> font colours are reasonably set. Layout is book format, so that's pretty much decided. The size of the paper is not decided on - probably needs to be changed to A4. Notes and margin notes are definitely not set, they need lots of polishing. Indentation is not confirmed
<godbyk> Sure!
<humphreybc> Neither are chapter headings
<godbyk> If you have a list of things that need to be done, feel free to dump it on me and I'll give it a go.
<humphreybc> Most of it is just proposed stuff, basically what we'd like to see - but it needs a lot of polishing and fine tuning, especially in the area of notes, URLs and code boxes etc
<jmburgess> So we have the white space between the chapter headings and the top set correct
<godbyk> Is the book going to be printed or just for on-screen viewing?
<humphreybc> oh jmburgess apart from the Contents
<jmburgess> but that (for whatever reason) doesn't apply to the Contents page
<jmburgess> yeah
<humphreybc> there is a big gap above the contents
<humphreybc> heh yeah
<jmburgess> godbyk: if you want to work on that, go for it
<humphreybc> well you guys talk LaTeX :P
<jmburgess> haha
<godbyk> humphreybc: Thanks for the help in getting started!
<jmburgess> godbyk: The book is primarily for online viewing, but it should be printable
<humphreybc> um it's not meant to be printed, but we will be providing a two pages landscape thing for printing, to save paper
<humphreybc> see the "answers" on the wiki
<jmburgess> right
<humphreybc> also there are a few bug reports about latex formatting
<humphreybc> You know what I might add all this crap to the to do list on the front page
<godbyk> Will there be a lot of margin notes?  If so, it might be good to make the margin wider to accommodate the notes.
<humphreybc> there might be quite a few, yes
<humphreybc> we're not sure on the definition notes - as we are going to have a glossary I believe
<jmburgess> yeah I need to get the figures and such to work
<humphreybc> so we could perhaps do a short definition in the note and a longer one in the glossary, or no definition notes just the glossary
<jmburgess> the notes I am doing won't be in the margins
<humphreybc> or no glossary and all definition notes
<jmburgess> I think glossary is god
<humphreybc> depends how well integrated the notes turn out
<jmburgess> the notes I think are for like warnings, security things and commands
<humphreybc> and how pretty they look
<jmburgess> they are gunna look good I promise
<humphreybc> okay jmburgess: fire some LaTeX to do stuff at me
<jmburgess> aight
<jmburgess> ummm
<jmburgess> Notes
<jmburgess> ToC whitespace
<jmburgess> Title (integrate actually into the latex doc)
<godbyk> Hmm.. I'll need better descriptions than that.  :-)
<jmburgess> Screenshot formatting (with wiki howto)
<jmburgess> index formatting (with wiki howto_
<humphreybc> yup don't worry i'm getting there godbyk :)
<godbyk> np
<jmburgess> glossary formatting (with wiki howto)
<jmburgess> get the footer styling correct (I need to redefine the plain style and such, look at diff between chapter pages and regular pages)
<humphreybc> cool cool
<humphreybc> keep going :)
<jmburgess> I think thats all I got
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> what about general project stuff?
<jmburgess> like non latex todo items
<jmburgess> ummm
<jmburgess> actually start on my chapter
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> ummmmm
<humphreybc> haha
<jmburgess> not sure what else, make sure that we can bring the translations back into the doc
<jmburgess> oh latex todo
<jmburgess> make sure all the languages we want to use will work in latex
<humphreybc> cool
<jmburgess> automate language merging and such with the make file
<jmburgess> look into latex to html converters if people want an html version
<jmburgess> so yeah
<jmburgess> plenty of stuff
<jmburgess> anything else you think I should take care of?
<humphreybc> nope I think that's a lot :)
<jmburgess> haha
<humphreybc> check the To Do list now on the main wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/
<jmburgess> looks good
<jmburgess> somewhat daunting
<humphreybc> godbyk: there we go, lots of stuff to sink your teeth into
<humphreybc> yeah it's a bit of stuff
<jmburgess> godbyk: does that make sense, if you need help or don't understand how we have set stuff up send me an email
<humphreybc> godbyk: you've picked a great place to contribute xD
<godbyk> looking through the to do list.. one sec.
<humphreybc> (or you can post to the mailing list, or email me, or ask a "question" on the project or file a bug)
<godbyk> okay, sounds simple enough.
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> and the items on the to do list make sense, too.  can I edit the wiki when I've completed one, or will you guys handle that?
<humphreybc> you must be a whizz at tex
<humphreybc> feel free to edit the wiki
<godbyk> also, should I attach patches to bugs for each of those or commit directly?
<humphreybc> commit directly :)
<godbyk> 'kay
<humphreybc> I'd prefer you remove each item as you complete it, less work for me :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: sure thing!
<humphreybc> and yeah at the moment we're incorporating an element of trust by letting everyone commit directly
<humphreybc> as the project gets bigger obviously we'll have to rethink the branch setup but for now it's fine. And you seem to know what you're doing so that's even better!
<jmburgess> humphreybc: yeah, we might need to start seriously rethinking that
<godbyk> My changes should be fairly localized, too.
<humphreybc> jmburgess: yep, something to ponder. Once we get alpha out a lot of pressure will be taken off as the main content should be there
<godbyk> A quick question, though:
<jmburgess> right
<godbyk> Would it be better if we moved all the formatting code (loading packages, formatting headings, etc.) to our own document class (.cls) file?
<godbyk> then we could do \documentclass{ubuntu-manual} instead of \documentclass{book}
<godbyk> would clean up the preamble and make it easier to reuse for future editions.
<godbyk> (and all the formatting diffs would be localized to the .cls file)
<humphreybc> heh sounds too complicated for me, but that sounds like a good idea. jmburgess, dutchie - what do you guys think?
<jmburgess> godbyk: go for it, I wasn't sure how to do that
<jmburgess> haha
<godbyk> jmburgess: no problem -- it's pretty easy once you figure it out.  it's just not terribly obvious at first. :)
<humphreybc> sweet!
<humphreybc> good stuff. oh godbyk what timezone are you?
<godbyk> I'm in US/Central.
<humphreybc> and jmburgess: should we hold another full meeting at some point?
<jmburgess> godbyk: awesome yea that is something I had no idea how to do
<humphreybc> okay so what time is it over there now? morning?
<godbyk> It's 19:44.
<humphreybc> oops
<jmburgess> yea I am eastern
<jmburgess> so it is 20:44 for me
<godbyk> I'm usually up from noon to 0600.
<godbyk> (night owl)
<humphreybc> 2:44pm here :)
<jmburgess> what day humphreybc?
<humphreybc> oh well that's useful for me then
<humphreybc> uh wednesday
<jmburgess> yeah you are a day ahead of us
<jmburgess> its tuesday here
<humphreybc> ha, well, today is nothing special so you don't have much to look forward to tomorrow xP
<jmburgess> correct
<jmburgess> I think we should have our sat. meeting
<humphreybc> I've got 2 hours of labs now, then I have to pick up some paper and stuff for my new printer. I'll be home in about three hours.
<humphreybc> make it a full one?
<humphreybc> or a brief?
<jmburgess> and just make sure we announce on the mailing list that the meeting is coming up
<jmburgess> brief
<humphreybc> okay cool
<jmburgess> I don't think there are any huge decisions coming up
<humphreybc> Sweet yeah that's what I thought too
<humphreybc> okay i'll email the list later this afternoon
<humphreybc> what's the list volume like at the moment?
<humphreybc> It's probably got the highest traffic of any Ubuntu project lol
<godbyk> Heh.. I just subscribed before joining this channel and I've received at least half a dozen messages already.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> yeah it's um... busy round these parts
<humphreybc> I get about 50 emails a day
<jmburgess> yeah same
<jmburgess> thankfully most of them are just like
<jmburgess> blueprint changes
<jmburgess> and such
<jmburgess> alirhgt guys, I need to go to a meeting, I will talk to you all later
<humphreybc> okay see ya
<godbyk> see ya, jmburgess.
<jmburgess> I should be back on in like 3ish hours
<godbyk> I'll still be here. :)
<jmburgess> cya, godbyk if you have any questions or ideas, you obviously know more than me so just shoot me an email and go for it
<humphreybc> okay me too
<humphreybc> i'm off to a 3pm lab
<humphreybc> dutchie knows quite a bit about tex but he's not around atm
<jmburgess> yep
<jmburgess> cya
<humphreybc> see ya'll in 3 hours
<humphreybc> oh and godbyk, i'm not sure if you have an eye for design but either way could you have a look at the title page proposals on the wiki and add some feedback in the comments section
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
<humphreybc> wait about 5 minutes tho
<humphreybc> i'm just putting up another proposal
<godbyk> sure
<godbyk> I'm happy to critique designs, but horrible at making my own graphics.
<godbyk> book design I can do, graphics not so much. :)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> i'm sort of the same
<humphreybc> okay feel free to edit the page now
<humphreybc> gotta ru
<humphreybc> run*
<humphreybc> see ya!
<humphreybc> hello
<brishu> hiya humphreybc :)
<humphreybc> hows it going everyone
<brishu> well, its going good for me ...
<humphreybc> is the main branch broken by any chance?
<godbyk> I hope I didn't break it!  I switched the formatting code over to its own file (r84).
<humphreybc> meh i'm sure it's fine
<humphreybc> latest revision builds fine for me
<godbyk> I just branched a new copy and it compiled okay.
<godbyk> humphreybc: btw, do you know what effect you're trying to achieve with regard to the chapter headings?
<humphreybc> not really
<humphreybc> hehe
<godbyk> the reason the chapter headings are as low as they are is due to the 4cm top margin.
<humphreybc> hmm
<godbyk> I can pull the headings up into that margin, but I'm not sure what effect is desired.
<humphreybc> the numbered chapters are okay
<humphreybc> but the Prologue and ToC headings are wayyyy low
<humphreybc> and what is your opinion on the font and size? I think perhaps the "Chapter 6" part could be smaller, whereas the actual title could remain the same size.
<godbyk> well, they're being pulled up by 5em.
<godbyk> Do we actually need to say 'Chapter'?
<humphreybc> probably not
<humphreybc> what do you propose?
<godbyk> If we just say '6 System Maintenance' in large letters, that's probably sufficient, I'd think.
<godbyk> though once we decide on a cover image, we can pull design elements from that and make the chapter headings a bit fancier, too.
<brishu> for the chapter headings: Software and packaging(one-three Pts bigger than the text font, and maybe bolded), with the chapter and section as a header and footer
<brishu> err ' 5. Software and Packaging '
<humphreybc> sure, maybe 6 - Software Maintenance
<humphreybc> or a dot
<humphreybc> probably better yea, 6. Software Maintenance
<humphreybc> I'm sure whatever you change will be awesome compared to what we have now, godbyk
<godbyk> humphreybc: well, I didn't know which parts were actually designed (i.e., intentional) and which are unintentional.  :)
<humphreybc> most of the manual you will find is just an accidental collaboration of people
<humphreybc> we are very much playing it as we go
<godbyk> I can play with a few designs and put them on the wiki (as you've done with the title pages) if you like.
<humphreybc> oh yeah sure thing
<godbyk> fair enough. :)
<humphreybc> that sounds good :)
<godbyk> Are we targeting both A4 and letter paper or just one?
<humphreybc> i might stick you on the formatting blueprint
<humphreybc> well we're not sure yet. I think we need to switch to A4.
<humphreybc> what's your lp username?
<godbyk> My lp username is godbyk.
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> what do you think re: size?
<godbyk> Btw, how are you guys handling translations of this?
<humphreybc> A4 makes sense...
<humphreybc> translations are done using po4a - talk to dutchie :)
<humphreybc> and rosetta
<humphreybc> http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/
<godbyk> Well, A4 is used everywhere *except* the US.
<godbyk> So it's more popular.
<humphreybc> heh well A4 sounds good to me
<godbyk> But it's a pain printing an A4 pdf on letter paper and vice versa.
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> two versions then?
<humphreybc> how easy is it for two versions?
<godbyk> (Either way it has to be scaled.)
<godbyk> It's pretty easy.
<godbyk> Nominally, one line of code needs to be changed.
<humphreybc> we could customize the size for each language or something
<godbyk> Oh, that's true.
<humphreybc> oh neat - so it's not a problem for now if it's just one line of code. Set it up so we can easily change it
<godbyk> I didn't know if you had code already to switch the language babel is using with the .po files or not.  (Haven't looked into that side of things yet.)
<humphreybc> oh yeah we also need to work out how to get translations back into the project
<godbyk> Yeah, that's the part I was curious about.
<humphreybc> I think Josh (dutchie) wants to automate all that
<humphreybc> but he's not sure how..
<godbyk> I didn't know if there was already some magic program that handled that with tex files or not. :)
<humphreybc> well there's the po4a project that takes the strings out of latex and puts them in a pot file
<humphreybc> which talks to rosetta on launchpad
<humphreybc> but at the moment josh has to manually update the translation template
<godbyk> That sounds like a pain.
<humphreybc> we need to automated so it does it when each new revision is pushed through
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> dutchie: ping ping ping ping ping pong
<godbyk> Okay, well, I'll ponder that problem later. :-)
<humphreybc> sweet :)
<humphreybc> as for style and formatting, you are welcome to play with anything you want - but I think the current font colour scheme looks pretty good, and the font style seems to be okay
<humphreybc> you don't necessarily have to run it by me first unless it's a huge change
<godbyk> humphreybc: Duly noted.
<humphreybc> sweet as :)
<godbyk> I just pushed the spacing changes on the chapter heads if you'd like to take a look.
<humphreybc> will do!
<humphreybc> hmm. You've fixed the space between the chapter and the top of the page, which is good - but I think the gap between the chapter header and the section header needs to go back to what it was
<humphreybc> and perhaps the chapter header could be more to the left - it looks a bit odd when it's so indented right above a section that's not as indented. If you follow what i mean :)
<godbyk> Gotcha.
<godbyk> Yeah, the section headings are outdented a bit much anyway, I think.
<humphreybc> they probably are yes
<humphreybc> 28 pages with probably not even half the content and no images, wow.
<godbyk> If we're going to have a lot of notes in the margin, we may want to shift the page to one side to make more room for those notes, too.  I'm not sure what your plans are there.
<humphreybc> I don't think we'll have that many notes
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> margin notes
<humphreybc> i'm not sure about definition notes
<humphreybc> margin notes are basically just "refer to this chapter for more info on this"
<humphreybc> I think...
<godbyk> If you're *really* going to put a lot of stuff in the margins, I'd suggest a style more like this one: http://tufte-latex.googlecode.com/files/sample-book-3.5.0.pdf
<godbyk> Okay, so they'll generally be pretty short?
<humphreybc> they should be yep
<humphreybc> we probably don't need them so boldly coloured - or coloured at all, looking at that sample book.
<humphreybc> we'll have a meeting on saturday to further define and confirm stuff like notes
<godbyk> Okay.
<humphreybc> which reminds me i need to remind everyone
 * humphreybc sends a reminder to everyone about the meeting
<functionofxy> humphreybc, I didn't break it then?
<humphreybc> Doesn't appear that way no
<humphreybc> :)
<functionofxy> fascinating. no clue what i did
<functionofxy> wouldn't work on my local
<functionofxy> thanks!
<functionofxy> I have to say, I'm really enjoying my first ubuntu project
<functionofxy> I've been using ubuntu (and linux in general) for at least 9-10 years now.
<functionofxy> I don't know much about code, so I'm glad to find a niche to which I can contribute
<humphreybc> oh really? 10 years? wow
 * humphreybc put the agenda up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
 * humphreybc and also added our meeting to the Fridge calender
<humphreybc> how does one go about making graphs, like histograms and pie charts in ubuntu?
<humphreybc> I'm going to start recording results of the questionnaire and formatting them as easy to read statistics, then I'll put them on the wiki.
<humphreybc> godbyk: sorry about the meeting time, it looks like an uncomfortable hour for most of the US
<godbyk> np.. I'm usually awake until early morning anyway (5-7 a.m. is when I go to sleep).  I'm a total night owl.
<humphreybc> heh well that's okay then
<godbyk> I'll be back in a bit.. gonna go grocery shopping (yes, at midnight).
<humphreybc> yeah that time seems to suit everywhere except the US... it's afternoon - evening for europe, evening for asia and evening for Australasia
<humphreybc> haha oky
<godbyk> Darn time zones anyway! :-)
<godbyk> back now
<wolter> hi humphreybc
<wolter> hm
<wolter> finally internet here
<humphreybc> how's it going?
<wolter> humphreybc, hm
<wolter> doing some changes here
<wolter> if you are free, we could use the gobby app to work on the file together
<humphreybc> explain some more?
<humphreybc> i'm not doing much
<wolter> oh and also, humphreybc, I talked to the guys at #ubuntu-devel and they don't think that synaptic will be removed for 10.04
<humphreybc> Yeah I emailed the folks in charge of the software center
<wolter> humphreybc, gobby is an application that hosts a file editing session to which other users can connect
<humphreybc> it probably won't be removed
<wolter> and edit simultaneously the same files
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> good then :)
<humphreybc> neat, sounds cool. it's in the repos?
<wolter> yes
<humphreybc> just installing it now
<wolter> good :)
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> how do i work it
<wolter> should I host the session?
<humphreybc> that would be a good idea :P
<wolter> ok
<wolter> hit join session
<wolter> connect to this -> 186.15.23.131
<wolter> port is 7020
<wolter> if you have to enter all in one line just enter -> 186.15.23.131:7020
<humphreybc> session password?
<wolter> manual
<humphreybc> neat
<wolter> very neat :)
<humphreybc> okay now what
<humphreybc> subscribe to the file?
<wolter> hm.. no
<wolter> just, if you want to, read what I have changed
<wolter> (everything highlighted in a clear greyish blue
<humphreybc> okay cool hold up one sec
<humphreybc> so if i change something
<humphreybc> you see it?
<wolter> yes
<wolter> in real time :)
<wolter> oh
<humphreybc> how do i change my colour
<wolter> could you select a clearer color?
<humphreybc> haha yea
<wolter> in the toolbar
<wolter> i think
<wolter> no, in user menu
<wolter> hm.. i think that i should not define terms, but instead you should let the users know that there is a glossary in the manual
<humphreybc> can we chat in gobby?
<humphreybc> saves alt tabbing
<wolter> ok ok
<wolter> do so
<dutchie> humphreybc: pong :)
<dutchie> it was 04:38
<humphreybc> gidday
<humphreybc> sorry what did I ping you for?
<humphreybc> I've forgotten now
<humphreybc> haha
<dutchie> looks like that godbyk fellow needed help
<dutchie> ahh, I've got the day off today due to more snow, so I could look at automatically building everything
<humphreybc> oh righto
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> he knows a bit about latex
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> a lot by the sounds of it
<humphreybc> he'll be a useful addition to the team :)
<humphreybc> he's already made changes
<humphreybc> have a looksie
<dutchie> my fingers are freezing from spending half an hour waiting for a bus that didn't turn up
<dutchie> I can barely type
<pseudoruprecht> just skimmed through the (alpha?) preliminary version of the manual at http://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/development-release/+download/ubuntumanual.pdf
<pseudoruprecht> in chapter 9, Wine is mentioned.
<pseudoruprecht> but it's presented as WINE, recursive acronym etc.
<pseudoruprecht> that is no longer what the project wants to communicate, as says Wine's FAQ as FAQ #1 :)
<humphreybc> hi, will fix in a sec, brb
<pseudoruprecht> ok
<dutchie> also, not sure if it's worth mentioning recursive acronyms
<dutchie> I don't think our target users will care what it stands for
<pseudoruprecht> their FAQ says 'no'
<pseudoruprecht> another question for chapter 9 (while I'm at it)
<pseudoruprecht> should it mention the PPAs for packages where PPAs exist, instead of just pointing to the project HP (which in case of Wine points to the PPAs for install, anyways)?
<dutchie> it might be worth mentioning ppas in chapter 9 actaully
<pseudoruprecht> ok, so there's no "no PPA" rule :)
<pseudoruprecht> could have been, because PPAs make it very easy to screw up a system
<dutchie> if that's the case, we should mention them and say "be careful"
<thorwil> vish: i don't think there is any problem with shading the ubuntu logo. at least as long the basic colors remain recognizable.
<pseudoruprecht> i know that this is the policy over at ubuntuusers.de and probably other forums, wiki ... too
<dutchie> do you think we need more space between the chapter heading and the title of the first section?
<vish> thorwil: From http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy >  "If presented in multiple colours, the logo should only use the âofficialâ logo colours."
<thorwil> vish: that doesn't rule out shading. in fact, we already saw different takes of it on the boot screen and that 3d version for GDM
<vish> thorwil: hmm... not sure i recall a 3D version.. but thats mention was how *others* can use it... maybe canonical can do with it as they wish..
<vish> anyways i'm pretty bad with legality ;)
<humphreybc> hi
<humphreybc> let me answer some things
<vish> o/
<humphreybc> the black and white boot screen and 3D version was made by canonical, so they can do what they like
<humphreybc> I'll find out some more about shading
<humphreybc> dutchie: yes we do, godbyk changed it but I asked him to change it back ie more space there
<humphreybc> pseudoruprecht: What should wine be referred to then?
<godbyk> humphreybc: oh, yeah, I can do that real quick.
<humphreybc> okay there you go
<humphreybc> dutchie, godbyk, godbyk, dutchie
<godbyk> hey, dutchie!
<humphreybc> you guys + jmburgess are practically our latex guys :)
<pseudoruprecht> 'Wine'; see the FAQ at http://wiki.winehq.org/FAQ#head-8b4fbbe473bd0d51d936bcf298f5b7f0e8d25f2e
<dutchie> hi godbyk
<humphreybc> okay cool, Wine it will become
<vish> thorwil: infact the Ubuntu logo change i did in humanity , i had to consult kwwi and mat_t before changing it in the Ubuntu version :(
<pseudoruprecht> humphreybc: great
<godbyk> humphreybc: it looks like the space after the chapter heading was only 0.5mm.. is that correct?
<vish> thorwil: only after they said , ok. i uploaded the change
<thorwil> vish: you are technically right that they can do whatever with it and that it doesn't translate to us directly. it's just that we already have lots of variations and not allowing custom shading is damn silly. sheesh, the canonical guys themselves screwed up regarding the relative size of the elements of the CoF in cases
<vish> thorwil: i agree ;)
<humphreybc> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<humphreybc> look at the very bottom of the page
<godbyk> I added a line's worth of space after the chapter headings and pushed the changes.  See if that looks better.
<humphreybc> going from that, turning it 3D and adding some shading should be okay if the original colours and proportions are kept.
<humphreybc> "you'd need to get trademark approval if you change the logo in any way"
<popey> morning all
<wolter> I should go to sleep now
<thorwil> but: You may use transparency and gradient/depth tools but should retain the âofficialâ colours.
<wolter> hey humphreybc i will save and push the copy of the chapter
<humphreybc> wolter, cool
<wolter> you can just close and read later, thanks for the session :)
<popey> it is okay to change the logo
<popey> i would just run it past the trademarks people before using it as your official logo
<vish> thorwil: if we didnt want to make the manual official then none of this matters , but when it is being pushed we need to just double check..[as popey mentions]
<humphreybc> popey: it's not official or anything, just on one of the many title page proposals we've got.
<popey> sure, but at some point you're going to choose one, surely?
<humphreybc> of course
<humphreybc> there is no rush :)
<humphreybc> and as far as I can tell, only one title page proposal has changed the logo
<popey> well..
<popey> the trademarks people don't always reply quickly
<popey> so make a decision, and then run it past them
<humphreybc> I think we will be using the regular ubuntu logo
<popey> that certainly makes it easier
<humphreybc> indeed
<popey> although still worth contacting them even if you use the standard logo
<humphreybc> vish do you want to email David Nel and just say that it would be preferable to use the stock logo
<humphreybc> popey: thanks for the advice - I'll hunt them down :)
<popey> trademarks@canonical.com iirc
<popey> let me confirm that
<vish> humphreybc: didnt i already do that? why another mail?
<humphreybc> okay I can do it, I just want to tell him that we would prefer the stock logo
<popey> ah, trademarks@ubuntu.com <- thats the address
<humphreybc> okay neat I'll email them now :)
<humphreybc> thanks popey
<popey> np
<thorwil> i still think David's take falls within "You may use transparency and gradient/depth tools but should retain the 'official' colours."
<popey> i agree thorwil but it's always a good idea to confirm it
<popey> because if you don't they _can_ ask you to stop using it
<thorwil> also agreed :)
<popey> and you dont want that :)
<thorwil> David's paw design is stronger, anyway ^^
<humphreybc> heh yep
<vish> yeah
<humphreybc> thorwil: feedback on the wiki feedback on the wiki!
<humphreybc> :P
<humphreybc> now that there are more people here - does anyone know what I can use to create some graphs, probably histograms and pie charts from some data in ubuntu?
<dutchie> humphreybc: OO.o spreadsheets are probably easiest
<humphreybc> (I'm going to collate the responses from the questionnaire and stick them on the wiki in chart form)
<dutchie> do we know how we're going to get these (awesome) title pages into the actual manual yet?
<humphreybc> It should give us some indication on where we should focus priorities, and what the community wants :)
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping re: dutchie above
<humphreybc> godbyk has an idea i think
<godbyk> dutchie: that's pretty easy.  we can use \includegraphics to pull in a jpg, png, pdf, etc.
<thorwil> one way would be to export to pdf from inkscape and then use a commandline tool to stich 2 PDFs together
<godbyk> thorwil: that'd work.  LaTeX can also pull the pdf in directly.
<humphreybc> whatever saves us the most file size...
<dutchie> yeah, I'm just thinking "translations" too
<thorwil> godbyk: even better. than only something to take care of the html version would be needed
<godbyk> thorwil: for that we can look at pandoc or tex4ht.
<humphreybc> well obviously when we choose a title page, we'll need to refine it some more - and then we'll have to go about the task of hunting down people to translate it into their native langauge
<thorwil> cover page translations might require layout work
<godbyk> once we've selected a title page, we can incorporate some of those design elements in the interior of the book, as well.
<humphreybc> howcome brishu left the project?
<vish> humphreybc: too many emails? ;p
<humphreybc> I wouldn't be surprised. That's probably my fault :P
<humphreybc> Seriously, if you aren't on gmail then you're practically screwed in this project!
<thorwil> i'm not on gmail and don't fell screwed ^^
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> well don't be surprised if you get a "running low on free space" notification xD
 * humphreybc 125 members on the team now!
<humphreybc> hey dutchie how's work on that bot going?
<humphreybc> manuel :P
<thorwil> pah, if i receive 200 mails a day without this, or 300 with ... doesn't really matter
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> you get 200 non-project emails a day??!
<humphreybc> you must be very popular
<dutchie> humphreybc: I've got a lot of stuff on, the bot isn't that high on the list :)
<humphreybc> heh no worries
<humphreybc> so, who's taking bets... I bet we'll have 400 members by lucid
<vish> humphreybc: manual is nothing... try being a part of papercutters ;)
 * vish has only one folder for manual... 4 for papercuts :D
<humphreybc> ha
 * humphreybc is painstakingly analyzing the results from the questionnaire
<humphreybc> stats are going to be interesting
<humphreybc> okay now have to learn how to work spreadsheet
<humphreybc> anyone know how I can turn spreadsheet graphs and charts into images?
<jaminday1> Argh having pidgin issues
<jaminday1> now im in here twice!
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> yes that bug
<dutchie> irssi is the one true IRC client :)
<humphreybc> what you need to do is go to accounts and choose to disable your IRC account
<humphreybc> then enable it again
<humphreybc> basically if pidgin closes unexpectedly then somehow it won't tell IRC you've gone or something
<humphreybc> so when you go to start up again it thinks your username is already registered, so it gives you something +1 at the end
<humphreybc> anyway charts export to png?
<jaminday1> ah ok - i'll give it a try now
<jaminday1> oh hang on no need - it quit for me
<jaminday1> and sorry - no idea about the charts thing
<humphreybc> nvm found a way
<jaminday1> wow a lot has changed in the lp branch since i last checked
<dutchie> is that my massive reorganisation?
<jaminday1> yep - good work
 * humphreybc would like to let everyone know that my statistical analysis is going to ROCK
<humphreybc> take a look at what I have so far team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/survey
<humphreybc> what does everyone think?
<jaminday1> taking a look now...
<jaminday1> wow - impressive graphs! hehe
<jaminday1> but some interesting results - i was a little surprised at openoffice at first
<humphreybc> mmhmm, but it makes sense when you think about it
<humphreybc> openoffice has many apps
<jaminday1> yeah i realised it's a big hurdle for a lot of people, leaving msoffice
<jaminday1> i actually think msoffice is one of the few things ms does really well
<jaminday1> everyone seems pretty keen to have it available by default
<jaminday1> how many responses overall?
<dutchie> which is why MS won't install it by default
<jaminday1> dutchie: yes true
<jaminday1> hehe but i was referring to the manual available on default install of lucid ;-)
 * humphreybc added "notable responses" to each question on the survey page
 * humphreybc renamed ubuntu-manual/survey to ubuntu-manual/Research, added both the Research page and the Style Guide to the main title bar
<thorwil> humphreybc: what's up with question 4? "Most people answered no", but biggest slice is Yes?
<humphreybc> refresh the page ;)
<humphreybc> I got the charts mixed upo
<humphreybc> I think I fixed it
<thorwil> ah yes, sorry. still was on "survey" ;)
 * dutchie goes back to the automation of building
<dutchie> are we going to do it on A4, letter or both?
<popey> heh, fine question!
<dutchie> why can't the americans just be the same as everyone else? :(
<humphreybc> dutchie: we were actually thinking of changing the page size to accommodate each language :P
<dutchie> oh god
<dutchie> is that deliberately to make it as hard as possibly
<dutchie> possible*
<humphreybc> so the english US version would be US Letter
<humphreybc> English UK would be A4
<humphreybc> etc etc
<humphreybc> most of the world use A4 I believe
 * humphreybc changes the colour of the wiki menu bar to a groovy pastel yello
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> well godbyk didn't seem to think it was that hard
<dutchie> I wonder how godbyk intended to do it
<humphreybc> hehehe
<godbyk> dutchie: Well, the paper size is set using the gometry package.
<godbyk> So it's a matter of changing from \usepackage[letter]{geometry} to \usepackage[a4paper]{geometry}
<dutchie> yeah, I realise that's pretty easy to do
<dutchie> I was thinking about automating it
<humphreybc> dutchie has a thing with automation I think
<humphreybc> what with the bot and all...
<humphreybc> :P
<dutchie> so 'make LANG=en_GB SIZE=a4' would just work
<dutchie> humphreybc: what can I say, I'm lazy...
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> fair enough - lazy people are smart people.
<dutchie> no, smart people are lazy people ;)
<dutchie> different thing entirely
<humphreybc> you have a good point
<godbyk> automation is nice.
 * humphreybc just remembered godbyk asked me to pull the revision and check out spacing
 * humphreybc got sidetracked with statistics.. how sad.
<godbyk> I don't know how the translation (.po files) will work in the end.  We may be able to handle the paper size using those.  (So the paper size is language-dependent.)
<dutchie> hmm, my root partition is 96% full, 270M left
<godbyk> Failing that, we can set the paper size via the makefile.
<godbyk> There are a number of tricks we can employ.
<godbyk> We'll just pick the easiest. :-)
<humphreybc> dutchie you must have a heck of a lot of apps installed, or you set a way too small root partition size...
<humphreybc> also godbyk, what is your estimate on final PDF file size once we have images and full content, glossary/index/credits and all that?
<thorwil> "By 1975 so many countries were using the German system that it was established as an ISO standard, as well as the official United Nations document format. By 1977 A4 was the standard letter format in 88 of 148 countries. Today the standard has been adopted by all countries in the world except the United States and Canada. In Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile and the Philippines the US letter format is still in common use,
<thorwil>  despite their official adoption of the ISO standard."
<humphreybc> is it just me, or have fonts and colours undergone a slight change?
<godbyk> humphreybc: It's impossible to say until we know more about the images.
<humphreybc> hmm. a very rough estimate?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Sorry.. not unless you can estimate the size of the images.
<godbyk> humphreybc: I haven't changed the fonts or colors (yet).
<humphreybc> righto
<godbyk> I just uploaded code to handle terminal input/output displays in the manual and documented it on the style guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
<godbyk> Do you think that will cover the scenarios you had in mind?
<humphreybc> just read it
<humphreybc> I think that sounds great
<humphreybc> have you got an example in the branch where it's used?
<godbyk> Not at the moment.  I didn't want to edit anyone's chapter files if they were in the midst of working on them.
<godbyk> Are there any dormant chapters that have terminal output I can edit safely?
<humphreybc> no worries. Wolter isn't editing software-packaging at the moment, he's asleep.
<humphreybc> I think there are some terminal things in there
<godbyk> Looks like there are a couple. I'll edit those real quick.
 * dutchie uninstalls 280M of packages
<dutchie> wow, about 200M worth of packages cached too
<godbyk> humphreybc: I can't push the changes because it says you have the repository locked.
<humphreybc> bzr or wiki?
<godbyk> bzr
<humphreybc> how? I don't even know you can lock them
<godbyk> Unable to obtain lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
<godbyk> held by humphreybc@bazaar.launchpad.net on host crowberry [process #14534]
<godbyk> locked 15 minutes, 31 seconds ago
<godbyk> no clue.  I haven't done much with bzr.
<humphreybc> random
<humphreybc> i'll close down everything hang on
<godbyk> 'kay.
<humphreybc> okay well i've got nothing open except pidgin
<godbyk> I can also break the lock, apparently.
<godbyk> If you're sure that it's not being modified, use bzr break-lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
<godbyk> I'll try it again
<humphreybc> try again, otherwise i'll push it again
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> hang on
<godbyk> still no go.
<humphreybc> i get it too:
<humphreybc> benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~/Manual/ubuntu-manual$ bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> Unable to obtain lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
<humphreybc> held by humphreybc@bazaar.launchpad.net on host crowberry [process #14534]
<humphreybc> locked 18 minutes, 20 seconds ago
<humphreybc> Will continue to try until 12:49:21, unless you press Ctrl-C
<humphreybc> If you're sure that it's not being modified, use bzr break-lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
<humphreybc> bzr: ERROR: Could not acquire lock "(remote lock)":
<humphreybc> I thought i may have committed but not pushed, but that wasn't the case
<godbyk> is there an instance of bzr running someplace?  (try: ps aux | grep bzr)
<godbyk> if not, I guess we can break the lock and see what blows up..
<humphreybc> benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~$ ps aux | grep bzr
<humphreybc> benjamin  9379  0.0  0.0   7336   888 pts/0    S+   01:52   0:00 grep bzr
<humphreybc> I think when I committed revision 90 at some point something went wrong
<humphreybc> try to break the lock, see what happens
<humphreybc> I didn't make any big changes
<humphreybc> it was only changing "WINE" to "Wine" lol
<godbyk> Okay, I'll try.
<godbyk> lol.. thanks, bzr!  bzr: ERROR: Unsupported protocol for url "lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock"
<humphreybc> yeah I got that too...
<humphreybc> I tried about 5 mins ago to break it
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> popey, ping!
<godbyk> bzr break-lock lp:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock   worked
<humphreybc> oh okay
<humphreybc> odd
 * humphreybc googles bzr lock
<humphreybc> heh https://launchpad.net/bugs/250451
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 250451 in bzr "bzr suggests wrong URL for break-lock for smart-server branches" [High,Confirmed]
<godbyk> okay, so I just pushed an update to the software and packages chapter so it uses the terminal environment.  you can see how it looks on page 14.
<godbyk> humphreybc: lovely!
 * humphreybc looks
<humphreybc> cute: Using saved parent location: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/
<humphreybc> bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how.
<humphreybc> Use the merge command to reconcile them.
<humphreybc> benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~/Manual/ubuntu-manual$
<humphreybc> i'll just merge them
<godbyk> should be a simple merge.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> neat looks good
<godbyk> Oh, I guess I also changed the monospaced typeface to Bera Mono instead of Computer Modern typewriter.
<humphreybc> cool i fixed up that merge so now we're in business again
<humphreybc> LOL look at the last three branch revisions: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main
<humphreybc> Wine is just so important it gets three revisions in under an hour
<godbyk> lol.. nice!
<popey> humphreybc: pong
<dutchie> humphreybc: you should probably mention the appdb in your wine section
<humphreybc> hey popey, sorry for pinging you! we had a problem with bzr lock but it's all fixed now
<humphreybc> do you know what bzr locks are? i'm curious...
<popey> heh
<popey> i am a bzr newb
<dutchie> git \o/
<humphreybc> dutchie: Heh well it's note really my chapter anymore, someone else is assigned to it.
<humphreybc> not* really
<godbyk> For the menu navigation stuff, does the following seem like sensible code to type?  Would you use different \commandnames?
<godbyk> To initiate the self-destruct sequence, \nav{Menu \then Submenu \then Submenu}, then click OK.
<humphreybc> how would that look? the command name seem logical to me
<humphreybc> although perhaps without a capital first letter?
<godbyk> we can make it look however we like.
<humphreybc> what's the LaTeX general rule with capitals in commands?
<godbyk> At the moment, I have it set to look like: Menu --> Submenu --> Subsubmenu.
<godbyk> Well, that's an interesting question.  There are some guidelines, but they're never really followed.
<godbyk> In general, user commands (like what authors would use) are supposed to be all-lowercase.
<humphreybc> considering that \section and \chapter and \textbf etc are all lowercase
<humphreybc> we should probably stick to convention that's already established
<humphreybc> in other news, Haiti got it pretty bad :\
<humphreybc> hmm... 2:20am... perhaps i should get some sleep
<humphreybc> right, night all
<humphreybc> talk to you some point tomorrow, well, today :)
<godbyk> I'm heading to bed, too.
<godbyk> I just committed the \nav macro and updated the software and packages chapter to use it.
<humphreybc> awesome
<godbyk> (see the bottom of page 14 for an example.)
<humphreybc> talk to you guys later, night
<godbyk> we can pick different arrows or separators later, of course.
<godbyk> I'm just trying to get the macros built so the authors can start using them.
<godbyk> humphreybc: goodnight.
<humphreybc> fair enough :)
 * dutchie mumbles something about 78-character lines
<wolter> hi
<wolter> I just saw the new guys cover proposals, the one with a black laptop and some objects floating around
<wolter> are you here?
<wolter> kolor guild
<vish> wolter: he's here.. but just doesnt like you ;p
<wolter> thats what i thought...
<wolter> lol whats his nick?
<vish> j/k... i dont know :)
<wolter> oh... you got me there >8(
<wolter> hey dutchie or jmburgess, are you guys here?
<dutchie> o/
<wolter> Why don't we use the DejaVu fonts in the manual?
<dutchie> pass
<wolter> As they're free/open source (i think)
<dutchie> they're not the only free fonts
<wolter> which is the red serif font the manual is usinh?
<wolter> well, i guess you don't like how they look then
<dutchie> I didn't choose them, I think jmburgess did
<wolter> oh
<wolter> and I guess he's not here right now
<wolter> dutchie, but you don't know the names?
<dutchie> I'm just looking
<dutchie> Bera Mono
<dutchie> "Bera Mono is a version of Bitstream Vera Mono slightly enhanced for use with TeX."
<wolter> hm... that sounds like a monospace font?
<dutchie> http://www.tug.dk/FontCatalogue/beramono/
<dutchie> does it look monospace? ;)
<wolter> yeah thats not the red serif font hehe
<wolter> haha
<dutchie> oh, that one
<dutchie> that's the latex default one, don't know what it's called
<dutchie> Helvetica
<dutchie> no, forget that
<wolter> ok
<wolter> hm.. it isn't freeserif
<wolter> anyway, no problem
<godbyk> wolter: The serif font is Computer Modern.
<godbyk> The sans serif font is Helvetica (of sorts).
<godbyk> And the monospaced font is Bera Mono (which is effectively Bitstream Vera Mono).
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> thanks godbyk
<godbyk> Are the fonts set to what people want them to be (or am I allowed to play with those, too)?
<godbyk> I've added an index to the manual.
<godbyk> And if you use the new \application command (like \application{Synaptic}), it will set the name of the application in bold (per the style guide) and add it to the index automatically.
<dutchie> nice
 * dutchie likes semantic markup
<IlyaHaykinson_> http://questionpro.com/t/ADd2yZGu50
<IlyaHaykinson_> i've created an online survey for our research phase
<IlyaHaykinson_> please review for completeness etc. do not spread the link until about 2009-01-14 around 0500 UTC: I will wipe all responses at that point so that we have a clean database, and then we can spread the link around
<functionofxy> hey. Quick question. Having trouble running make
<godbyk> functionofxy: what errors are you getting?
<functionofxy> If I branch, make, wait a while, pull a new revision and then try to make again, it fails
<functionofxy> does this mean I need to branch again
<dutchie> shouldn't do
<dutchie> can you give the make error?
<functionofxy> I've had this problem several times now.
<functionofxy> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/d23170583
<godbyk> functionofxy: Ah, you don't have the beramono package installed.
<godbyk> Let me see what deb it's in.
<dutchie> you need the texlive-fonts-extra package
<functionofxy> thanks
<godbyk> dutchie: that was fast!
<dutchie> dpkg -S ftw
<functionofxy> big d/l--it's going to take a few minutes
<dutchie> it is quite big
<godbyk> I have texlive-full installed, so I don't normally have to worry about missing packages.  But you'll want to wait and do that if you have time to let it download and install.  The full TeX Live installation is huge.
<godbyk> (They ship it on a DVD.)
<dutchie> ping popey
<sebsebseb> Hi
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-14
<markit_2> I would love the manual state about GNU/Linux and not "Linux" when referring the whole operating system
<sebsebseb> markit_2: oh right yeah
<sebsebseb> indeed Linux is just a kernel
<markit_2> thanks, I really consider it very important for Free Software :)
<sebsebseb> markit_2: some don't like calling a distro   Ubuntu GNU/Linux for example
<markit_2> btw, do you know how can I "reclaim" my nick in freenode? someone is using my usual one
<sebsebseb> markit_2: well it's not my choice what text they do
<sebsebseb> markit_2: ,but the correct people are likely to see this later on
<sebsebseb> markit_2: you can lock your nick if it's registered
<sebsebseb> so only you can use it
<markit_2> sebsebseb: hope they agree also, there is a strange repeated attempt to put the "Free as in freedom" par marginal or avoided
<sebsebseb> there's been like two meetings on the text for the manual and that
<markit_2> I've registered it, but not locked
<sebsebseb> there will be another one coming up
<sebsebseb> markit_2: if you hang around here  or come here every now and again,  I am sure you can get quite a few or all of your suggestions in for the manual
<sebsebseb> !log
<manualbot> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<sebsebseb> markit_2: it's logged now as well
<sebsebseb> !register
<manualbot> Information about registering your nickname: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration - Type Â« /nick <nickname> Â» to select your nickname. Registration help available in #freenode
<markit_2> sebsebseb: I've my "markit" nick registered, but can't use right now because is used by someone else
<markit_2> I'm googling for "reclaim nick" but seems that there are confused info about it
<markit_2> let's try #defocus
<sebsebseb> markit_2: ok I think you got to wait for them to go off it, and then put in the command so only you can use it.  #freenode or Freenode Staff in pm regarding your nick
<markit_2> lol, can't post there since I've not a registered link
<sebsebseb> markit_2: link you mean nick?
<markit_2> yes, sorry
<markit_2> s/link/nick
<sebsebseb> well someon elese might have the name you want to register,  in which case you can't just use it
<sebsebseb> unless...
<markit_2> I have registered it time ago
<markit_2> so it's "mine", I have the password
<sebsebseb> ok well I  told you where you can get help with that
<markit_2> so there must be a command to have it back
<sebsebseb> they can send you a new password request
<sebsebseb> to your email address yes
<markit> ok, done with release and ghost commands
<markit> thanks for the #freenode suggestion, they helped me
<markit> :)
<sebsebseb> markit: ok, well I knew they would
<sebsebseb> markit: np
<markit> ok, I try to upgrade my xorg packages, see you later, I hope
<sebsebseb> Konversation terminated
<sebsebseb> Konversation :)
<sebsebseb> (Konversation terminated!  even as the left message.)
<sebsebseb> Now that's a good client!
<sebsebseb> :)
<sebsebseb> I use it as well.  People are likely to read this later on, hence the messages.
<jmburgess> hey everyone
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: hmm ended up talking to two guys about the manual a bit, but somewhere else
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> were you talking about the manual here?
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: with the guy that was here a little while ago, but then a tiny bit with two others in another channel as well
<jmburgess> cool
<humphreybc> afternoon everyone
<humphreybc> where was that bug about synaptic?
<humphreybc> ah ha it was closed, cool
 * humphreybc is pissed off at the docs team failure to see the benefits of our project
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: have a look at log, from earlier,  someone had a suggestion for text
<humphreybc> ok hold up one sec
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: not much to read really, I could have just told you, but anyway :)
<humphreybc> yeah just read it
<humphreybc> was it about using GNU/Linux instead of Linux?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: yeah
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: calling it all Linux is wrong
<sebsebseb> Linux is just a kernel
<humphreybc> we're not even calling it linux
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: oh?
<sebsebseb> just Ubuntu then?
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
<sebsebseb> humphreybc:  oh another Ubuntu Manual media attention thing
<humphreybc> hmm?
<sebsebseb> shame wolters  image wasn't choosen though
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: yeah
<humphreybc> where's the link?
<sebsebseb> http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2010011303135NWUB which goes to http://www.learningubuntu.com/news/quick-preview-upcoming-ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> no ones has been "chosen" yet - the reporters obviously just grabbed one of the artwork page
<sebsebseb> humphreybc  yes indeed,  I meant for their blog/article
<humphreybc> oh right sure
<sebsebseb> anyway that one says it will be included in 10.04
<humphreybc> I'm not going to email them and ask them to change it, our project _will_ be included in Lucid.
<sebsebseb> humphreybc I was about to ask if we knew if it would actually be included or not yet
<humphreybc> no, we won't know for some time.
<sebsebseb> so it might not be in the ISO still?
<humphreybc> The Ubuntu folks can't commit to something that isn't completed yet
<humphreybc> So we need to try our best to get it finished as soon as possible.
<sebsebseb> well that blog says it will be included
<sebsebseb> I could quote from it, but well you got a link so no need
<sebsebseb> humphreybc wow at those latest cover proposals altough the text would need sorting out properly
<sebsebseb> KolorGuild's proposals
<sebsebseb> with the last two being my favourite
<sebsebseb> humphreybc  good idea to put a date on the comments
<sebsebseb> and then people can also add new comments of course?
<humphreybc> of course
<humphreybc> add some if you want
<sebsebseb> my other comment was bits I put on IRC so it's not that great, but yes I am going to do a proper comment, but not yet
<sebsebseb> humphreybc who put the thing for overall comments, it does not say
<sebsebseb> and indeed at that, the cover page needs to look pro
<humphreybc> overall comments are under my heading
<humphreybc> they're my comments
<sebsebseb> like a professional graphics has made it, however even so,  would be great if the final cover was made using opensource/freesoftware tools rather than Photoshop
<sebsebseb> or anything else that isn't open for that matter
<wolter> hey humphreybc
<wolter> how was the meeting
<humphreybc> gidday
<humphreybc> what meeting?
<wolter> sorry that I did not assist, but is impossible for me to
<wolter> because its at 6 am, and that is like the pure middle of my sleep time
<wolter> so i will not be able to attend
<humphreybc> the meeting's not till saturday :)
<wolter> oh
<wolter> sorry then
<humphreybc> heh no worries
<wolter> is there any way that you could change the meeting time?
<humphreybc> nope sorry buddy
<wolter> what decides the meeting time?
<humphreybc> it only affects the americas - it's a good time for Europe, Asia, Oceania and Africa
<humphreybc> ^^ that
<wolter> aw..
<humphreybc> unfortunately there will always be people who lose out, it's the nature of international projects
<humphreybc> you could just get up at 6am, go to bed earlier the previous night :)
<wolter> yeah i could
<wolter> i guess
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> 6am isn't that bad
<humphreybc> US central is like 3am meetings
<wolter> well, you should say america, because there is only one
<humphreybc> :)
<wolter> no really, the people from usa, or usanians, as I like to call them and many more, have "re-invented" geography by saying tat america splits up in two continent
<wolter> s
<wolter> north america and south america
<IlyaHaykinson_> *sigh* yeah, meetings at 3am are tough.
<IlyaHaykinson_> but obviously one can't satisfy everyone
<humphreybc> Yeah sorry folks, that's the case with international projects
<IlyaHaykinson_> though i have to say that UTC1900 is a better time
<IlyaHaykinson_> it's 7pm in London, 11am in Los Angeles, 8am in Wellington
<IlyaHaykinson_> or even any time between 1900 and 0000
<IlyaHaykinson_> all this at the cost of most of Asia, though
<humphreybc> hmmm
<humphreybc> might change meeting times for the next one
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i'm reworking the online survey
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> i took it earlier today, i think I put "awesome" as one of my responses :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> i want to also add a few questions about other topics we're not totally sure about.
<humphreybc> sure go for it
<IlyaHaykinson_> my thinking is a question to ask about the need to include command line stuff (and how much depth)
<humphreybc> good thinking number 99
<IlyaHaykinson_> a question about security -- how much to dwell on it
<humphreybc> sounds good, although who are you targeting this survey at?
<IlyaHaykinson_> and then an open ended question about troubleshooting
<IlyaHaykinson_> my thought is actually a technical audience
<IlyaHaykinson_> i was going to ask a few of my contacts to try to spread the link
<humphreybc> yeah that makes more sens
<humphreybc> sense*(
<IlyaHaykinson_> i.e. scott hanselman (evangelist at MS, tech geek) may run it.
<IlyaHaykinson_> on his twitter feed
<IlyaHaykinson_> may get a few hundred responses, if he does
<humphreybc> no good asking a windows user to tell us what they'd like to see in an ubuntu troubleshooting section...
<IlyaHaykinson_> also andy baio at waxy.org
<humphreybc> oh sounds fantastic! way to go!
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, hopefully we'll see how the responses correlate with the current OS
<IlyaHaykinson_> my thinking is that windows/mac users are actually probably our #1 audience in general.
<humphreybc> sweetbix
<IlyaHaykinson_> if we could find a way to ask a _general_ audience, that'd be even better. but they're not likely to have even heard of Ubuntu ... :(
<humphreybc> alright well sounds great, you create the survey and send me the link, i'll get Martin Owens to blog it on the planet too
<IlyaHaykinson_> nod. i will have the revised survey in another few mins
<humphreybc> yeah unless you feel like hitting up the mall with a clipboard
<IlyaHaykinson_> heh.
<humphreybc> i'll tweet and blog it
<humphreybc> oh and facebook it i guess
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, can you take a look please?
<IlyaHaykinson_> http://questionpro.com/t/ADd2yZGu50
<IlyaHaykinson_> as a reminder, please don't share the link with the public.
<humphreybc> sure i'll have a look
<humphreybc> oh gnarly stuff on the apps
<humphreybc> is this all free?
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah
<IlyaHaykinson> if i had more time / needed more capabilities, there's an open source version of similar software too
<IlyaHaykinson> but this (with the limits and everything) is enough, and even forces us to ask only a few questions as opposed to too many
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> i just took it, put "COOKIES!!" as a few answers so you know it's
<humphreybc> me
<humphreybc> survey is great :)
<IlyaHaykinson> thx.
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll wait till (my) morning for more feedback
<humphreybc> when will that be?
<IlyaHaykinson> um, well, it's 11:18pm right now
<IlyaHaykinson> so maybe around 8-9 hrs from now
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> I'm replying to "Thomas R Jones"
<humphreybc> and I am very very very tempted to say "cut the melodramatic bullshit" in my email...
<vish> humphreybc: stop..
<humphreybc> eh
<vish> humphreybc: dont reply.. :)  take some time away from the keyboard
<humphreybc> Sure
<humphreybc> It's just so annoying that what I originally sent as an email offering to collaborate with the docs team turns into a debate about the manual project. The docs team need to realise that we're here to stay, like it or not they may as well make the most out of the situation and take me up on the offer of collaboration.
<humphreybc> The docs team is being unreasonable because of fear, they know that they have problems and that they're weak and don't want competition as it may replace the docs team down the road.
<vish> humphreybc: no one can dictate that a project can exist on not
<humphreybc> of course
<vish> thomas probably didnt realize that ;)
<humphreybc> and that is what I just sent to this Thomas person
<vish> humphreybc: just wait for someone else to mention  what needs to be done... [but i do have to say your last response to Mathew east was not needed either]
<vish> ;)
<vish> humphreybc: sometimes the best response is _not_ responding :)
<humphreybc> True
<humphreybc> good words of wisdom
<humphreybc> but you can imagine the frustration after all the work we have done to basically be shut down every time I offer collaboration.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think perhaps we need to not offer collaboration
<IlyaHaykinson> be open to it, yes
<IlyaHaykinson> but, well... i think the best defense for us is finishing the manual
<IlyaHaykinson> after that, the discussion becomes less academic ("do we need another X") and more practical ("oh. what do we do with this useful thing?")
<vish> humphreybc: fair point... but they have been here longer , so they do know what they are talking about... they have not succeeded earlier , hence i see them/their advice as a friendly suggestion ... as an advice of "things to be careful of" .. use it positively  , just lookout for those problems
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* texlive-full is another 355MB... :(
<IlyaHaykinson> my poor netbook, i'm abusing it much with this project.
<humphreybc> I think you can get away with texlive and texlive-latex-extra
<humphreybc> I think that's only 200mb all up or so, opposed to the texlive-full package which is more than 500
<IlyaHaykinson> well, too late now
<humphreybc> I'm still trying to work out why a text editing suite comes to 500mb!
<IlyaHaykinson> mostly installed already
<IlyaHaykinson> er, it's cause right now i'm staring at ...hungarian, ... tibetan...
<humphreybc> how much space has your netbook got?
<IlyaHaykinson> i think they have every major language supported
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> i see haha
<IlyaHaykinson> oh. i think a lot. 120GB?
<humphreybc> Oh I was thinking 8GB SSD
<IlyaHaykinson> no, thank goodness
<humphreybc> you wouldn't stand a hope in hell :P
<IlyaHaykinson> though till now i'd actually fit into that
<humphreybc> it'll be nice when SSD prices decrease and SSD size increases
<IlyaHaykinson> actually tex wont push me over
<IlyaHaykinson> nod. well, crappy SSDs are already cheap
<humphreybc> mmm
<IlyaHaykinson> at work we got some thrown in for free with some larger purchase
<IlyaHaykinson> they were _SO_ bad.
<IlyaHaykinson> i put windows on one...
<humphreybc> SSDs in my server would be cool so it's nice and quiet
<humphreybc> really slow was it?
<IlyaHaykinson> let's just say that i went back to the spinning hard disk within a week
<IlyaHaykinson> but apparently the intel X25-Ms are just blazing fast
<IlyaHaykinson> and not too outrageously priced.
<IlyaHaykinson> i suppose i just need them to drop by, uhm, 30%? and then i will be game.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> yes well give it another year or so
<humphreybc> I'm still waiting for fuel cells...
<IlyaHaykinson> now -that- would be cool
<IlyaHaykinson> though i shudder to think what would happen when flying with these laptops
<humphreybc> imagine a week of battery life
<IlyaHaykinson> airline security can't possibly love the transition to fuel cells
<humphreybc> they'll hate it
<humphreybc> you'll probably have to put your fuel cells or something in your suitcase, and use a regular battery for the flight
<IlyaHaykinson> nod
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, i'm out for the night, l8r
<vish> humphreybc: hehe , your private mail to David , was inline in David's response to the doc ML ;)
<humphreybc> yeah, he obviously didn't realise
<vish> yeah
<humphreybc> meh
<humphreybc> he's right on a few things
<humphreybc> i'm not going to bother with the docs team anymore
<humphreybc> but he's wrong on some other things
<humphreybc> we're not trying to copy the docs team or do a better job at the same stuff
<humphreybc> we're targeted at a different audience than the docs team are
<humphreybc> and i'm not asking for "your way and your way only" - in my first email to them I said this: "I'd like to ask what else the docs team would like from the manual team."
<humphreybc> but i can't be bothered arguing with them any more, they're either ill-informed, haven't looked at our wiki or are just naive
<vish> :)
<humphreybc> and the point is that everyone else in the community is behind this project except them
 * humphreybc is still not happy with 64 bit flash!
<popey> :(
<humphreybc> popey: ?
<humphreybc> where should one go for help regarding mounting a remote server on boot? does anyone in here know?
<popey> !mount
<manualbot> mount is used to attach devices to directories. See also https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mount
<popey> also
<popey> !fstab
<manualbot> The /etc/fstab file indicates how drive partitions are to be used or otherwise integrated into the file system. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab and http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html and !Partitions
<xchat-p3t3r_> hi
<popey> humphreybc: the ":(" was just how i felt about the comments above regarding the break downs in communication between manual and doc teams
<humphreybc> popey if you like could we talk about that in a private conversation?
<humphreybc> hi xchat-p3r3r_
<xchat-p3t3r_> when i login in launchpad, it desn't allows me to modify and translate.. why?
<humphreybc> umm have you got a PGP key?
<humphreybc> check out this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help#Using bzr
<xchat-p3t3r_> no...
<humphreybc> sorry an SSH key
<humphreybc> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair
<xchat-p3t3r_> no
<xchat-p3t3r_> but it behaves in that way not all the time..
<humphreybc> what do you mean?
<xchat-p3t3r_> at the 90% of the time i can modify and translate..
<humphreybc> but it sometimes won't let you?
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> have you followed the steps on our wiki?
<xchat-p3t3r_> 10% : it's seem i'm logout.. as a not register users...
<humphreybc> does it give you any errors? where are you having trouble, at the command line when you're trying to push?
<xchat-p3t3r_> no
<humphreybc> where are you having the problem? at what stage of making changes?
<xchat-p3t3r_> but i've only been registered at launchpad
<humphreybc> well you need to have a launchpad account, be a member of our team and have an SSH key for the computer you're using registered with launchpad
<humphreybc> otherwise it won't work
<xchat-p3t3r_> the problem is that i've already worked on this with no errors..
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_ : are you there?
<vish> humphreybc: hmm..you do realize that the doc mailing list is watched by a lot of teams and people , right?
<humphreybc> vish: yes I know.
<humphreybc> don't worry I'm having a serious think, and talking to many people privately about what this project wants to achieve.
<bittin|> :o
<humphreybc> lolwut
<bittin|> i killed a screen =)
<humphreybc> hah
<humphreybc> murderer
<bittin|> :D
<lepr> As for what format to develop the Manual in, I investigated various formats myself for other projects, here are my conclusions. A good path to HTML is necessary. (La)Tex: I did not investigate much.  DocBook: Yet another markup that varies from the well  known HTML for no reason.  Choosing it will exclude participants. Who wants to learn yet another markup for no good reason?  It could have been made to extend HTML, but is not made that way. 
<lepr> So you were/are doing work in ODT?  Seems not a bad choice.  The Sun Wiki exporter is handy.  There are Nice UIs.  You can save diagrams in separate documents if you please.
<lepr> I should say, "Seems one of the 2 best choices."
<jussi01> lepr: Ive heard fantastic things about latex. fwiw
<lepr> jussi01: advantages over HTML?
<jussi01> lepr: it can be easily converted to most formats, including html, pdf and more
<jussi01> its very flexible
<lepr> I'm still waiting.  ;-)
<jussi01> lepr: Im not a latex expert, but everyone I talk to who uses it says very good things about it. Id say its worth the investigation
<lepr> The package i was thinking of is HTMLDoc http://www.htmldoc.org/. It seems not completely up to date with HTML4 and CSS. maybe it is therefore not worth using.
<thorwil> "DocBook: Yet another markup that varies from the well  known HTML for no reason". Docbook includes lots of stuff that is targeting at marking up most things you will want in a book. a direct comparison to html is silly, as the 2 have quite different purpose. same for latex vs html
<pleia2> fwiw, the ubuntu-learning team is using asciidoc for our courses
<lepr> I learned enough of the DocBook markup to make a sensible comparison with HTML.
<pleia2> easy to learn, exporting to docbook is easy for export to other formats
<lepr> There is much common purpose with HTML and DocBook in the meaning of the markup.
<lepr> Take the sum of endless amounts of 'easy to learn' things that have the same degree of easiness as DocBook and you've got a tough situation.
<lepr> I've heard and seen enough people tell me about how HTML is not easy to learn, to know that a large portion of potential participants are not going to find DocBook easy to learn.
<lepr> oops.  I misunderstood your statement about asciidoc being easy to learn as meaning DocBook is easy to learn.
<pleia2> nah, docbook is hard, asciidoc is more like wiki syntax
<pleia2> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/document-formats-for-learning-materials/
<pleia2> ^^ from when we were reviewing a bunch of formats
<vish> *sigh*
<sebsebseb> Hi
<bittin|> Hi
<sebsebseb> bittin|: Hi
<jaminday> can anyone help with a bzr issue
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-15
<jmburgess> not sure if your still there bbut I probably can
<jmburgess> nvm he left
<jmburgess> hey humphreybc sorry I have been so MIA
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: MIA? what does that mean
<jmburgess> missing in action
<sebsebseb> oh right ok ty
<jmburgess> school is just revving up and I need to re-figure out my lack of copious amount of free time
<jmburgess> haha
<sebsebseb> ok
<humphreybc> hey jmburgess, no probs
<humphreybc> is it just me or has the manual changed a bit?
<humphreybc> it looks "rougher" as if it's been printed using a typewriter
<humphreybc> dutchie ping
 * humphreybc just pushed the 100th revision!
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, so there were no further comments on the survey, right?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i guess we should start spreading it around.
<IlyaHaykinson_> aw, crap. it already had
<IlyaHaykinson_> http://www.ubucentrum.net/2010/01/podrecznik-ubuntu-pierwsze-projekty-i.html
<IlyaHaykinson_> i suppose i just won't wipe the results then
<humphreybc> how did it get there!?
<IlyaHaykinson_> probably someone checking the mailing list; it appears to be that 83% of the responses so far are from that site.
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> heh
<IlyaHaykinson_> there are 61 completed surveys
<humphreybc> okay i'll start spreading it then
<humphreybc> what's the URL?
<IlyaHaykinson_> thx. try to spread it in the least-Linuxy places you can.
<IlyaHaykinson_> we probably want to hear from people who do not already use the system... i.e. closer to our target audience.
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> what's the url?
<IlyaHaykinson_> http://questionpro.com/t/ADd2yZGu50
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> well i've spread it on a few places, how's your windows man going?
<humphreybc> Ilya, what does the output look like using QuestionPro?
<humphreybc> does it give pretty graphs etc?
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: some stats, some charts.
<IlyaHaykinson_> medium pretty, imho.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> that's alright
<humphreybc> as long as it's functional :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> yeah, should be.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i want to go for 2 weeks, or 1000 people, whichever happens first.
<humphreybc> sounds good
 * humphreybc is watching Jono Bacon in the studio: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/severed-fifth-live-in-the-studio
<IlyaHaykinson_> ooh, lucid alpha 2 is out.
<IlyaHaykinson_> does dist-upgrade pick up alphas?
<IlyaHaykinson_> when starting with alpha 1?
<sebsebseb> IlyaHaykinson_: no it's delayed
<IlyaHaykinson_> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/lucid/alpha2
<IlyaHaykinson_> seems to be available
<sebsebseb> oh right
<sebsebseb> well it wasn't earlier
<sebsebseb> and +1's topic hasn't been updated
<humphreybc> i'm downloading alpha 2 atm
<sebsebseb> well if it's out, I am going to get it soon/now
<sebsebseb> it wasn't ready earlier though
<sebsebseb> not downloading yet, but soon
<sebsebseb> plus  it seems that if I do the PUEL of Virtualbox rather than OSE,  I am more likely to have sound working properly  with the vm's and not losing on the host
<IlyaHaykinson_> sebsebseb: nod, i think i always use the PUEL version...
<sebsebseb> IlyaHaykinson_: I do normalley as well
<sebsebseb> Mandriva One 2010 is my host OS at the moment, but had sound issues with vm's in OSE in Karmic as well
<sebsebseb> IlyaHaykinson_: quite a few issues for alpha 2
<sebsebseb> known ones
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah. yeah.
<sebsebseb> IlyaHaykinson_: hmm no puel for this version of Mandriva
<humphreybc> where's the list of known issues?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: on the page he linked to
<sebsebseb> right got some stuff I want to do, and the ISO to download and then get the vm set up.
<sebsebseb> might be here a bit later,  or quite a lot of hours from now if not probably,  bye
<humphreybc> looks like alpha 3 is the one to wait for, i might just wait for beta
<humphreybc> (to put it on my actual computer)
<humphreybc> for now i'll try the alphas in Vbox
<godbyk> humphreybc: what aspects of the manual look 'rougher'?
<dutchie> humphreybc: you've got to stop pinging me at stupid times
<pererik87> Anyone got some dirty work for me. got 2 hours
 * humphreybc stumbles wearily into the chatroom and peers around
<dutchie> humphreybc: you managed to do that before joining apparently :)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> ooh so who's looking forward to the meeting in 12 hours time?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-17
<p3t3r> hi!
<p3t3r> is it possible to have a review of the meeting?
<p3t3r> *resume
<vish> p3t3r: the meeting took place in #ubuntu-meeting and the logs >
<vish> !logs
<manualbot> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<p3t3r> i've know that the meeting was on these channel
<p3t3r> however thanks
<jmburgess> Hey guys
 * IlyaHaykinson waves
<wolter> Hi
 * IlyaHaykinson waves
<wolter> What was all that mailing about the perfect time for the meeting being 2000 and Benjamin still held it at 1100?
<IlyaHaykinson> i think he held it at 1100 since that was already scheduled.
<IlyaHaykinson> but the _next_ one will be at 2000
<IlyaHaykinson> which is good, because i can't make the 1100 ones -- it's at 3am for me, and I have to get up around 7am.
<wolter> yeah, me neither
<wolter> its 5 am for me jaja
<wolter> and i get up around 9 am
<wolter> or 10 am
<jmburgess> yeah 6 am is no fun
<jmburgess> especially when I usually am done with my hw and all by like 2 or 3am
<wolter> jmburgess, same here haha
<humphreybc> hi all
<wolter> hey humphreybc
 * humphreybc sends a weekly update to the mailing list
 * dutchie watches the interviews at the end of the snooker
 * IlyaHaykinson_ submitted a patch proposal to the prologue
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-10
<dinda> godbyk: ping
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-14
<c7p> hello all, any author/editor available ?
<godbyk> Hey, c7p. What's up?
<c7p> nice, too busy these days but i'm trying to write some text for get involved pages
<godbyk> I hear ya. I've been pretty swamped lately, too.
<c7p> have you any free time now ?
<godbyk> I can spare a few minutes.  How can I help?
<c7p> well i'm trying to understand how an author does his job (no big deal i guess)
 * c7p trying to find the text
<c7p> godbyk: ok here we are, http://typewith.me/Gi3quUoar8
<c7p> in this section i tell the reader how to pull and push the content of a branch through Ground Control
<godbyk> 'kay
<c7p> i talked with Alexander before some days and he said that as an author he uses the push, pull, branch and merge commands
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> I think the basic order that I use it:
<godbyk> 1. bzr pull to ensure I have the latest changes from upstream.
<godbyk> 2. Make my edits.
<godbyk> 3. bzr pull to grab any changes that happened while I was editing.
<godbyk> 4. bzr commit to commit my changes locally.
<godbyk> 5. bzr push to push the changes to the server.
<godbyk> 6. go to step 1.
<c7p> neat
<c7p> if you are editing a file that has been updated there is confict when you are trying to commit the changes right ?
<godbyk> you won't notice the conflict until you try to push the changes.
<godbyk> bzr commit just commits it locally on your computer.
<godbyk> bzr push tries to upload the changes to the server.
<godbyk> when there's a flurry of activity and lots of people are editing, committing, and pushing at the same time, we sometimes add some extra steps.
<godbyk> so between step 4 and 5 we might do a pull.
<c7p> ah ok
<godbyk> if there are conflicts at that point, you can run 'bzr uncommit' to uncommit your changes, then bzr pull to merge the upstream changes with your local stuff.  then bzr commit to commit your stuff again. and finally bzr push to upload to the server.
<c7p> i guess the merge doesn't mean loss of work
<godbyk> well, there's merging that happens when you run bzr pull.
<godbyk> (the upstream changes are merged into your local stuff)
<godbyk> but since we're not creating lots of branches, we don't typically have to call bzr merge to merge together two branches.
<c7p> aha ok i think i understand it better now
<c7p> so let's recap :P, i'm an author
<godbyk> 'kay.
<c7p> i work with my tex files, on local branch. Before i start writing stuff i'm pulling the lattest changes/updates and then i'm "ready" to start writing
<godbyk> yep
<c7p> let's say i have finished my work for today, (i pull again the changes if there are any ?) and then i push the changes
<c7p> *on of the files i've been workin on
<godbyk> you pull any changes, then you commit your changes, then you push your changes.
<c7p> ok :)
<c7p> ah
<c7p> the files of the branch are named and placed by you ?
<c7p> let's say for the 11.04's manual
<godbyk> I'm not sure I understand the question.
<godbyk> 'kay..
<c7p> sorry
<c7p> an author wants to start working, are you creating the tex files (e.g for Chapter 4) and you tell him these are the files that you will work on mostly ? or the author has to create the files by himself/herself ?
<c7p> was i clear :/ ?
<godbyk> ah, I understand now.
<godbyk> we usually set up the main chapter file.
<godbyk> So let's say you had a chapter titled "A Walk Through the Park"
<godbyk> we'd create a directory (e.g., 'walk-through-park') and a file (walk-through-park.tex).
<godbyk> we edit the main.tex file and add \include{walk-through-park/walk-through-park}.
<godbyk> as an author, you can edit the walk-through-park.tex file.
<godbyk> you can either include all of your sections in that one file, or
<godbyk> if you choose, you can split your sections up into multiple files.
<godbyk> place all the files in the directory for that chapter (walk-through-park/)
<c7p> now it gets even clearer thx
<godbyk> then in your walk-through-park.tex file, you can add the line \input{first-section}, \input{second-section}, etc.
<godbyk> and that will read in the first-section.tex, second-section.tex, etc. files located in the walk-through-park/ directory.
<c7p> latex is cool :P
<godbyk> :)
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-16
 * jasono is away: I'm busy
<R33D3M33R> hi all
<R33D3M33R> i'm wondering if the site is still in development
<Muscovy> I think it is.
<R33D3M33R> oh, ok
<R33D3M33R> i was just wandering because there is a pot named: ubuntu-manual-website-moved in launchpad
<R33D3M33R> *wondering
#ubuntu-manual 2012-01-15
 * sagaci throws a rock down the long tunnel
<sagaci> I know the latest focus is for the oneiric cycle, but is it somehow possible to create a version for the precise cycle?
<sagaci> or just get the oneiric version and rename everything to precise
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-08
<thorwil> godbyk-feynman: into physics today? should it be "L'Ã©quipe du manuel Ubuntu" or "Ãquipe du manuel Ubuntu"?
<thorwil> godbyk-feynman: double-fr.svg pushed, using "L'Ã©quipe du manuel Ubuntu" on the back like it was on the front of the single version already
<godbyk-feynman> thorwil: Heh. feynman is the name of the computer I'm on. It's my secondary irc nick. Not sure why it fell back to it, though.
<godbyk> thorwil: Also, If L'Ã©quipe is consistent, then go with that. I just copied and pasted the text from the interior of the manual, so it may be a different context.
<thorwil> ok
<cqfd93> Hi All!
<cqfd93> thorwil and godbyk: in "l'Ãquipe...", "l'" stands for "the"
<thorwil> cqfd93: hi! so it should be there, both on the front and back?
<cqfd93> If "The Ubuntu Manual Team" is both on the front and back, yes
<godbyk> Thanks, cqfd93.
<godbyk> thorwil: I updated the cover to change 12.10 to 12.04 on the back cover, btw.
<cqfd93> you're welcome, godbyk
<thorwil> godbyk: heh, i even noticed when reading the email, but then forgot about it
<thorwil> gotta run, g'night!
<godbyk> cqfd93: Hey, Sylvie. How would you translate 'user'?
<cqfd93> godbyk: user = utilisateur
<godbyk> cqfd93: Thanks.
<godbyk> cqfd93: I'm just tidying up a few last details on the French precise-e2 manual.
<cqfd93> godbyk: please, give me the sentence that contains this word
<godbyk> cqfd93: It stands alone. It's in the file system diagram.
<godbyk> cqfd93: You had your own name there. I thought I should replace it with something more generic.
<godbyk> cqfd93: It refers to the /home/user directory (as opposed to /home/sylvie).
<CarstenG> Hi Kevin
<CarstenG> Is there still the transparency issue with the new printing service?
<godbyk> Hey, CarstenG.
<godbyk> CarstenG: I haven't encountered any problems yet, but I've only had a couple people purchase the English version of 12.10.
<godbyk> CarstenG: They do tell me when they detect transparency, though, and they flatten it for us.
<godbyk> CarstenG: All the same, I'm trying to flatten everything on our end, too. Just to reduce the number of potential problems.
<CarstenG> ok
<CarstenG> nice to see that the Dutch version is already online :-)
<CarstenG> good work
<CarstenG> Does Hannie know about it?
<cqfd93> With Enrico, we thought we could use a real name and he choose my name :-)
<CarstenG> Sylvie, yes, a real name would be good there. In the quantal version we changed the "user" to "John Doe"
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yep. I emailed Hannie about it so she could post the release notice herself (since I figure it's likely she'll want it written in Dutch).
<godbyk> CarstenG: Ah, did we change it there?  Okay. I'll keep an eye on that next time.
<CarstenG> Its a place holder name.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah. I know we had discussed changing the placeholders everywhere to a generic name, but I didn't think that applied to precise-e2.
<CarstenG> I think there is also a place holder name in France, or?
<CarstenG> Yes, Kevin, not in the pot file
<CarstenG> But for German for example, I used "Erika" also in precise-e2
<CarstenG> Well, in the screenshots until now.
<godbyk> CarstenG: I had to modify the French 06-root-directories screenshot because part of it was clipped slightly at the edges and because I wanted it in a flat PNG format.
<godbyk> CarstenG: So I just opened the original SVG in Inkscape and transferred over Sylvie's translations (except for the 'user' dir).
<CarstenG> I see.
<CarstenG> Well, I think I will skip the PDF version of that screenshot in the raring release.
<CarstenG> The png version is better.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Agreed.
<godbyk> CarstenG: The PDF version was great except that it's transparent.
<godbyk> CarstenG: So now I export to PNG and flatten that.
<CarstenG> Well, I get an make error for the French precise-e2
<CarstenG> ! Unable to load picture or PDF file 'titlepage/halftitlepage-fr.pdf'.
<CarstenG> Is it because of your change from \providecommand{\printscreen}{screen} to {print}?
<godbyk> CarstenG: Oh, let me add that to the repository.. one moment.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Okay, it's pushed now.
<CarstenG> ok
<CarstenG> and yes, it was this change :-)
<godbyk> CarstenG: The half title pages are only used in the print versions.
<CarstenG> btw the \listfiles is not really necessary, or?
<godbyk> CarstenG: It's not necessary.. it just outputs the files, timestamps, and versions to the log file. It's useful when I'm trying to troubleshoot a problem someone is having.
<godbyk> CarstenG: It doesn't affect the PDF at all.
<CarstenG> And one more: :-) 6149x3953 px for the 06-root-directories.png is a little bit much. :-)
<godbyk> CarstenG: Well, I exported it at 600 dpi for printing.  Otherwise CreateSpace yells at my for low-resolution images. :)
<godbyk> CarstenG: I might be able to drop it to 300 dpi. I'll check.
<CarstenG> 1027x 768 should be enough, as the other screenshots.
<CarstenG> ah ok
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, CreateSpace gets after me about our low-res screenshots, too.  I'm not sure if there's a way to take higher-resolution screenshots and keep them readable, though.
<godbyk> CarstenG: I could just resample the screenshots at a higher resolution, but then they'd just take more file space and not provide any more detail. So it's not really worth it.
<CarstenG> I agree
<CarstenG> In my copy from ulu the screenshots are readable
<CarstenG> So I expect this for createspace, too.
<godbyk> CarstenG: They're readable for me in both the Lulu and CreateSpace copies I have, but they do appear a little grainy (dithered).
<CarstenG> Yes
<CarstenG> this can also be a result of printing black/white?
<godbyk> That's part of it. I think it's also partly due to the lower resolution.
<CarstenG> It would be interessting to see a color printing...
<CarstenG> yes of course
<godbyk> CarstenG: Remind me when I get to the German one and I'll create one for you.
<CarstenG> Yes, donât worry. I keep this in mind. :-)
<godbyk> It looks like CreateSpace wants 300 dpi or higher. So I'll re-export the root dirs image at 300 dpi instead.  That should reduce the PDF file size a bit. :)
<CarstenG> Which dpi 1024x768 would be?
<godbyk> Oops.. hit Ctrl+W with the wrong window focused. :-/
<godbyk> CarstenG: I'm not sure what dpi those end up being.. but pretty low.
<godbyk> The root dirs image at 300 dpi is 3074Ã1976.
<godbyk> But that one doesn't follow the same scaling as the screenshots.
<CarstenG> Well, if I scroll through the PDF, Evince lags when it comes into the near of the root directory screenshot...
<CarstenG> I think this is because of the file size.
<godbyk> If we take a full screenshot at 1024Ã768 resolution and the screenshot fits into the main text block area (about 304 pt), then that'd be a resolution of 243 dpi (if I did the math correctly).
<CarstenG> Why does this not follow the same scaling?
<CarstenG> It is a png as the others...
<CarstenG> well, this 243 dpi would be ok in my eyes...
<godbyk> Well, it follows the same scaling factor within the PDF itself, but the actual PNG isn't necessarily 1024Ã768.
<CarstenG> This is what I wanted to say: You can export it from Inkscape with 1024x768 :-)
<godbyk> CarstenG: If I do that, then that image is just under 100 dpi.
<CarstenG> ;-) as all the other screenshots, too. :-)
<godbyk> We may want to redo this image anyway for raring, since it doesn't contain all the directories that are described in the manual.
<CarstenG> one moment, you wrote, it would be 243 dpi?
<godbyk> The regular screenshots are (I think) 243 dpi.
<godbyk> But this SVG exported at 1024 px would only be 100 dpi.
<CarstenG> mmmh...
<CarstenG> a normal screenshot with 1024 px width in the text block comes to 243 dpi
<CarstenG> our svg export with 1024 px width in the text block comes to 100 dpi?
<CarstenG> Iâm wondering...
<godbyk> Yes.
<CarstenG> Same px size, same text block --> same dpi. (IMHO)
<godbyk> The original SVG isn't 1024 pixels wide.
<CarstenG> But does this matters?
<CarstenG> I thought: (pixel size) / (text block width) = dpi value
<godbyk> Well, here's what I know: When I go to the export dialog box and tell it to export the drawing at 1024 pixels wide, it says the dpi is 99.93. :)
<godbyk> CarstenG: That's true, yes.
<CarstenG> Well, Iâm confused... I think its time for bed now. :-)
<godbyk> LOL. You and me both. :-)
<godbyk> We'll just blame Inkscape for now. ;-)
<CarstenG> hey you have 5 pm there...
<godbyk> True.. no sleepiness excuses for me, sadly.
<CarstenG> ok, we can discuss tomorrow again. :-)
<CarstenG> Good afternoon.
<CarstenG> see you
<godbyk> Sounds good.
<godbyk> G'night, CarstenG!
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-09
<thorwil> godbyk: transparency eliminated
<CarstenG> Hi
<hannie> hello CarstenG and all
<CarstenG> Hey Hannie, congratulations for the release of the Dutch manual!
<hannie> thanks, very happy it is published, thanks to many of you too
<CarstenG> You're welcome :-)
<hannie> The French, German, Slovenian, Italian, Greek, Malay will follow soon
<CarstenG> And now do you continue wih the quantal release?
<CarstenG> Well, the German is the last in you list :-)
<hannie> CarstenG, we decided to stick to the LTS versions, because we have a very small team
<CarstenG> 28% of translation left...
<hannie> CarstenG, that sounds good, but 28% of ???? It makes a difference!
<CarstenG> Ah, ok
<CarstenG> 28% means 529  strings to translate...
<hannie> ok, but we are with 2 translators at the moment and I do not have that much time
<hannie> Besides, we are talking of 529 very long strings
<hannie> *about
<hannie> They are often complete paragraphs
<CarstenG> oh, I meant the German version, there are 529 to do...
<hannie> CarstenG, If I merge precise with quantal there will probably be less than shown in LP (untranslated)
<CarstenG> You would have only 431 strings to do for quantal :-)
<CarstenG> Yes, you will get some fuzzy strings...
<hannie> I could try a merge with 100% translated Precise-e2 and see how many fuzzies there are
<CarstenG> Most of them have only small changes in syntax for example
<hannie> Well, ok, I will try the merge in a minute
<hannie> And if you help me with the screenshots, perhaps we could publish Quantal after all ;)
<CarstenG> Sure, I will help where I can :-)
<cqfd93> Hi all, and congratulations to Hannie!
<hannie> Great. I will let you know if Quantal is worth finishing
<hannie> hey cqfd93 Isn't it wonderful. Now the French version is in the making and will follow soon.
<cqfd93> yes, it's great!
<CarstenG> *thumbs up* for quantal
<CarstenG> Do we publish the manuals to the Software Center, too?
<hannie> haha, you have almost persuaded me :)
<hannie> CarstenG, that is a good question.
<CarstenG> :-) I only like the green bar at 100% on LP ;-)
<hannie> Software Center only has English 12.04 and 12.10 at the moment
<hannie> I have added a line in Software Center: Dutch version can be obtained at ubuntu-manual.org
<CarstenG> You mean a comment?
<CarstenG> Yes, I see it.
<hannie> Yes, as a comment. I will do the same for 12.10 now
<CarstenG> really?
<CarstenG> than you _have_ to release quantal :-)
<CarstenG> ok, I'm out for half an hour.
<CarstenG> See you later.
<CarstenG> back :-)
<godbyk> I will be publishing them in the Software Center, too, but that process seems awfully slow.
<CarstenG> Fine.
<CarstenG> The review process is the problem, right?
<godbyk> Yes.
<godbyk> Perhaps it's improved in the past couple months.
<godbyk> We'll find out. :)
<CarstenG> I think they have now a bit experience with our Ubuntu Manual ( 3 times in USC) so it should go faster in future...
<godbyk> cqfd93: I've just published the French translation of precise-e2.  I sent you an email with some announcement text that you can translate (and rewrite if you like).
<godbyk> cqfd93: Congratulations and thanks for all your hard work!  Please pass along my thanks to Enrico and the rest of the translation team, too.
<cqfd93> thank you godbyk!!!
<godbyk> It looks like the Dutch translation of precise-e2 is already available on Amazon. That was fast!
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-10
<thorwil> godbyk: for spansih: "El equipo del manual de Ubuntu" vs "El proyecto del manual de Ubuntu"?
<thorwil> godbyk: i'D default to "El equipo del manual de Ubuntu" in both cases
<thorwil> spansih cover pushed
<thorwil> oh, the ump logo as shown on the top of our launchpad pages is wrong (see 2 long green strokes)
<thorwil> godbyk: quantal french A4 svg and pdf pushed
<thorwil> godbyk: negative kerning after the . in 12.10 pushed
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil. Thanks for all the title pages and covers adjustments.
<godbyk> thorwil: I just pushed a change for the Spanish cover. The text near the icon on the back side should refer to the Ubuntu Manual Project instead of the Ubuntu Manual Team.
<godbyk> (Can I possibly make things more confusing for you? ;-))
<thorwil> godbyk: i wasn't realy aware that we the team vs project on front and back
<thorwil> isn't that wrong now for nl and fr?
<thorwil> we have, even
<godbyk> Looks to be. (You can tell how attentive to detail I am, eh?)
<godbyk> Not a big deal in any case.
<godbyk> I think we I asked the other translators to translate the back cover text, I only gave them the two paragraphs.
<thorwil> it is the same string for 12-04 e2 in fr and nl
<thorwil> godbyk: would be nice to be consistent, but it's up to you (again). luckily that text can be replaced without issues
<godbyk> thorwil: Consistent across translations/languages or consistent using the same string on both the front and back cover?
<thorwil> godbyk: consistent across languages
<thorwil> but it is a good question why we have this team/project thing in the first place
<godbyk> It is.
<thorwil> i have no clue and no strong inclination either way. how odd of me
<thorwil> the reasoning for referring to team is likely that it might seem a more natural way to refer to a group of authors. reserving project for one level up
<godbyk> thorwil: I think so, too.  The team was the author, but the icon is the project's logo.
<thorwil> then lets continue with that scheme
<thorwil> http://ubuntu-manual.org/ proudly claims "translated into more than 52 languages" ...
<CarstenG> Hi at all
<thorwil> hi CarstenG
<CarstenG> Hi Thorsten
<CarstenG> 52 languages? :-) Thats maybe the number of _started_ translations. :-)
<godbyk> Yeah, I think Ben got a bit ahead of himself with a lot of the text on that website. :-)
<thorwil> yeah, sounds like something Ben wrote while riding a unicorn, playing trumpet
<godbyk> thorwil: That sums it up pretty neatly, I think. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: pushed slovenian. needs to have a translator check the hyphenation of the backmatter
<thorwil> + translation of "project" instead of "team"
<cqfd93> Hi All!
<cqfd93> The French version of precise-e2 is already available on amazon-fr :-) :-) :-)
<thorwil> cool
<cqfd93> Yes!
<godbyk> thorwil: Thanks. I'll pass it along to the Slovenian translation editor for proofreading.
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-11
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<hannie> hello CarstenG
<CarstenG> What gave the merge from precise-e2 and quantal?
<hannie> ay, ay, haven't done it yet. Still busy translating Raring GUI
<CarstenG> Is the GUI freeze over?
<hannie> We have started translations now.
<hannie> There may be 1 or 2 strings added, but that's no problem
<CarstenG> ah ok
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie.
<cqfd93> Hi Carsten!
<CarstenG> Nice to see the French version online. :-)
<cqfd93> Yes!  Now waiting for the quantal version which is ready :-)
<hannie> Hey sylvie. congrats on the release of "your" version of the manual
<cqfd93> Hello Hannie, thank you!
<hannie> I have to go. See you later.
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-13
<PatrickDickey> Just wanted to pop in and say hi. And to let you know, that if you're in the #ubuntu channel, and type !manual the bot gives a link to our manual. :D
<CarstenG> Hi Patrick
<CarstenG> Nice to see you :-)
<CarstenG> !manual
<PatrickDickey> Nice to see you too CarstenG.
<PatrickDickey> Any word on when we'll be starting the Raring manual, or are we going to wait for the next LTS?
<CarstenG> We will do a version for raring.
<CarstenG> But I don't know when we start
<CarstenG> I think Kevin will organize a meeting for it.
<CarstenG> The raring branch is already started and can be used.
<CarstenG> The next LTS will be 14.04, or?
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<cqfd93> Hi Carsten!
<PatrickDickey> I'll have to install it on my laptop. I decided to go with lubuntu on my desktop.
<CarstenG> you mean raring?
<CarstenG> Hi Thorsten.
<CarstenG> See you all.
<CarstenG> Bye
#ubuntu-manual 2014-01-11
<KI7MT> godbyk, you around for a question or two ?
<godbyk> KI7MT: I'm here now.
<KI7MT> godbyk, I got what I needed I think, talked with knome .. was having trouble with local repos and working on multiple fixes as things. Seems the only way I can do that is to have separate branches in a none shared local repo.
<godbyk> KI7MT: Ah, okay. Yeah, that's the only way I've found to deal with it, too.
<godbyk> (I often wish we used git instead of bzr for that reason. But perhaps I'm just missing an obvious feature of bzr that would help.)
<KI7MT> Yeah, I created a bit of a mess with ubuntu-docs .. sent up on MP .. was merged, then did a second MP, then an unrelated bux fix, used > bundle and well made a mess .. lol ..
<godbyk> Heh.. yeah, I've been there. :)
<godbyk> I end up checking out a new branch for each MP and each bug fix and dealing with them one by one.
<godbyk> Otherwise I'm not sure how to keep it all straight.
<KI7MT> I wouldn't be an issue if the repo wasn't Distributed + gatekeeper, but I can see why they want it controlled.
 * godbyk should learn how to use bzr better.
<godbyk> For the manual, anyone on the team can directly commit to our repository. We don't bother with MPs generally.
<godbyk> So far it hasn't been much of a problem.
<KI7MT> Im now using a branch  .. then cp -R to say ubuntu-docs-lp12345  and work it that way.
<godbyk> We'll occasionally have someone that commits something that breaks the build.
<godbyk> But it's usually a quick and simple fix.
<godbyk> That's what I end up doing, too.
<KI7MT> I had to pull my second MP and adn the fix into their repsective repos, but think it's all sorted. The docs say to setup a shared repo .. but that's leads to torubles.
<KI7MT> Allot of these fixes are a line or two of text, so can do several fixes per day.
<KI7MT> Hows progress on the 14.04 manual going? saw some email traffic on translations.
<godbyk> In the next couple weeks I'm going to start putting out calls for volunteers again.
<godbyk> We usually don't begin writing too early as we have to wait for things to actually land in Ubuntu before we can document them.
<KI7MT> Is there a task list of to do's somwhere?
<godbyk> Not really. We usually assign authors and editors to particular chapters/sections of the manual.
<godbyk> After they're finished, we then proofread the entire manual.
<KI7MT> Have you looked at an applicaiton called asciidoc ?
<godbyk> I think I've seen that one before.
<godbyk> I've looked at pandoc, too.
<KI7MT> It has a LaTex backend: http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/#X1   docbook well supported as is Mallard.
<godbyk> Most of the convert-to-LaTeX apps I've seen do a fair job, but not really as good as we can do by just using LaTeX directly.
<godbyk> There's a slight learning curve when people start working on the manual, but I don't think it's too bad these days.
<KI7MT> For me it's kinda frustraighting . all the docs seem to use different tools. Kinda rough for new folks to come in and help out .. I think the authors and editors approach is pretty good though.
<godbyk> The LaTeX syntax we use is fairly limited at the moment, so you don't have to learn too much.
<godbyk> Yeah that is a problem sometimes.
<godbyk> I don't mind having to learn a new markup language and tools as long as they're well-documented.
<godbyk> And the docs project isn't documented nearly as well as I think it should be.
<godbyk> I'm hoping we can continue to work on that going forward.
<KI7MT> Thats just it, relevant examples is hard to find, then how that markup is to used used on a project, or lack of templates
<KI7MT> I think ubuntu-manual is pretty good, the styles guide explains allot.
<godbyk> For the manual project we went to quite a bit of effort to make it easy for people to work on our project.
<KI7MT> So what's the key freeze point for the manual, Feature Freeze?
<godbyk> Well, the final deadline is to publish the manual the same day that Ubuntu 14.04 is released.
<godbyk> We try to have all the editing done at the beginning of that week (so I have a couple days to do any last-minute tidying up).
<KI7MT> You have a definitive list of topics as well yes?
<godbyk> And going back from there we try to give the editors and authors as much time as we can.
<godbyk> Yeah, kind of.
<godbyk> We've been sticking with the current chapter/section outline, but we can change that if need be.
<godbyk> If we think we need to add another topic or remove one or shuffle things about, etc.
<godbyk> Nothing is really set in stone, but it serves as a guideline.
<KI7MT> I find looking through the Ubuntu-QA app testing list a good template regarding docu some apps have their own help, some done, wehre does one draw the line in the sand so to speak :-)mentation needs, but
<KI7MT> *some dont .. ..
<godbyk> Yeah, I don't know how that works.
<godbyk> I think some app developers write their own documentation and others don't.
<KI7MT> that's odd. mentaton need, but got added.. no idea how that happened ..lol
<godbyk> For the Ubuntu system (desktop) docs, we inherit the docs from GNOME and then tweak that documentation to account for differences between Unity and GNOME.
<godbyk> (The differences are becoming more and more pronounced it seems.)
<KI7MT> From a user stand point, where do they go fist .. app help, system help, external docs .. it's all kinda crazy.
<godbyk> Yeah, it is.
<godbyk> And I don't know what users *actually* do... I'd love to find out, though.
<godbyk> I don't know if anyone reads the system documentation on their desktop (e.g., open the Dash and run the Help program).
<KI7MT> Yeah, that's would be an interesting set of data for sure.
<godbyk> I don't know if they visit help.ubuntu.com..
<godbyk> Or if they visit wiki.ubuntu.com...
<godbyk> or if they just ask Google and go where it leads.
<godbyk> Hopefully some of them read the Ubuntu Manual, too. ;-)
<KI7MT> Im actually confused on that one myself .. in IRC  I try to send people to help.ubuntu.com.. was tols the wiki is more or less for developers .. then there's askubuntu.com .. LOL ..
<KI7MT> *told
<godbyk> Yeah, I forgot about askubuntu.com.
<godbyk> Myself, I tend to just Google things.
<KI7MT> I send folsk that say, "Im new to Linux, where to I start", or I need some general how too for ubuntu etc to the ubuntu-manual.
<KI7MT> If they ask for a specific topic .. how to I do x,y,z .. then usually help.ubuntu.com .. unless I can't find an up to date one, wheich that needs allot of work too.
<godbyk> I think that's a good way to go.
<godbyk> For the manual, we write it when a novice Ubuntu user in mind.
<godbyk> It's geared toward new Ubuntu users.
<KI7MT> my typing is horrible today .. Im on an HP Mini right now, fingers bigger than the keys .. lol ..
<godbyk> Gah, I hate small keyboards!
<KI7MT> ditto ..
<KI7MT> Or laptops with a touch pad right where it should NOT be .. lol .. like 99% of them are.
<godbyk> Yes! My laptop has a touchpad that my wrist keeps hitting and so the cursor moves and I start typing elsewhere in the document.
<KI7MT> is there a repo specifically for gnome-docs ? I keep seeing allot of reference to that on the ubuntu-docs stuff.
<godbyk> Yeah, they have a git repository.  One sec and I'll dig up the link.
<KI7MT> On the ubuntu-docs task list, says we need to check ubuntu-docs against gnome-docs ..
<godbyk> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/
<KI7MT> lol .. and of course, it's Git and bugzilla :-)
<godbyk> Yeah. We have to diff the GNOME docs (keeping in mind that Ubuntu may be using an older version of GNOME than the latest and also that the GNOME docs themselves may be out of date for that version) and the Ubuntu docs.
<godbyk> Then update the Ubuntu docs accordingly.
<KI7MT> v.s. bzr and launchpad
<godbyk> But it's not a process we can automate. We have to have humans looking at the diffs and deciding what to keep and what not to.
<KI7MT> That explains why Im seeing allot of gnome .page file things ..
<KI7MT> authors and such
<KI7MT> they have a nice styles guide also.
<KI7MT> That's what we need for ubuntu-docs Help
<KI7MT> They gnome-docs moved over to Mallard didnt' they?
<godbyk> Yeah, the gnome-docs use Mallard. And that's why ubuntu-docs switched to Mallard, too.
<KI7MT> from a first glance perspective, seems a fare bit easier than DocBook
<godbyk> Yeah, there are a lot fewer tags.
<godbyk> Mallard was also designed specifically for this type of documentation.
<godbyk> So it's not designed to produce books or any random document type you can think of.
<godbyk> It's specifically for documentation.
<KI7MT> It looks nice, we jst need to develop a more focused Styles guide foe Help Docs.
<KI7MT> and get rid of all the DocBook stuff .. except for server docs, but then again, why not move them over to mallard too.
<godbyk> I'd like to see nice documentation for writing Ubuntu system docs (desktop) using Mallard, too. Something like the  Ubuntu Manual style guide would be great.
<KI7MT> Yes, it's definately needed. The gnome guys have a pretty good handle on this.
<KI7MT> Like, they have a whole page on License usage.
<godbyk> yeah
<KI7MT> They have their own IRC also .. :-)
<KI7MT> web-based though, not a fan of that.
<godbyk> You can probably still connect to it through an IRC client.
<godbyk> A lot of people just use web clients, though.
<KI7MT> I was gonna go look .. probably a different server.
<KI7MT> Web-Client kinda hard to do on a server :-) .. well a non DE server at lease .. IRSSI be my buddy .. lol
<godbyk> I've thought about switching to irssi but haven't taken the plunge yet. I'm still using xchat.
<KI7MT> dont know if you seen this, pretty nice: https://developer.gnome.org/gdp-style-guide/stable/
<godbyk> Yeah. And the Ubuntu docs style guide reference that GNOME docs style guide.
<KI7MT> I use both .. server irssi .. DE xchat .. irssi is realyl powerful, but has a learnign curve.
<godbyk> One of the things I'd like to do for Ubuntu it work with the docs teams and the Ubuntu designers/developers to come up with a list of canonical names and spellings (and capitalizations) of all the various UI elements so we can ensure consistency.
<godbyk> Right now those things are somewhat inconsistent.
<KI7MT> well .. maybe that's what we need to do if Unity is the way of the future ..
<KI7MT> I agree .. and I think the docs teams whould all work form the same styles guide .. and adjsut contest based on platform.
<KI7MT> *docs teams should .. ..
<KI7MT> contest.. lol .. adjust content.
<KI7MT> Like the use of Dash .. if it's in Dash .. point users to go through Dash to get to it .. not, click this, click that.
<godbyk> Yeah.
<KI7MT> and for DE .. terminal should be avoided .. I like the terminal .. I can't work without it, but, Unity uses Dash, not the term.
<KI7MT> And workflows .. that would be great, like: https://wiki.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/StatusTracking
<KI7MT> I asked about status tags .. and ubuntu-docs Help .. they not being used.
<godbyk> Yeah, I was a bit wary about the terminal-based instructions for disabling the guest account for that reason.
<KI7MT> And this Shaun McCance is like gnome docs super man, his name is everywhere.
<godbyk> But since I'm unaware of a GUI way of doing it, I let it go.
<godbyk> Yeah, Shaun is the guy who wrote/designed/invented Mallard, too.
<KI7MT> :-) that explains why he's all over the mallard questions I had :-)
<KI7MT> re Guest .. I've seen that done allot in the field / real world use. The server guys are terminal guru's .. README's are wthe way of life there.
<KI7MT> gnome uses Git too :-)
