#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-14
<derek[] > hi :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-15
<Riddell> anyone here who can turn SVG to PDF?
<ogra> Riddell, scribus ?
<AndyFitz> Riddell,  and keep it vector ?  scribus,  there are a few tricks along the way however   re: gradients
<AndyFitz> if there are  no gradients then its easy
<Riddell> hmm, scribus doesn't seem to do it properly
<Riddell> anyone able to do it for me?
<Riddell> http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-breezy-cd-sleeve.svg
<Riddell> http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-breezy-cd.svg
<AndyFitz> what version of gs and version of scribus ?
<Riddell> breezy
<AndyFitz> this is illustrator generated svg ?
<Riddell> no, inkscape
<AndyFitz> cool
<Riddell> if I had illustrator I'd just use that to export as PDF
<AndyFitz> lol yep
<AndyFitz> I can't convert the cvsleve svg without significant alterations
<AndyFitz> also the image you used in the file is no longer present 
<AndyFitz> breezy-cd.svg  should be fine
<Riddell> what sort of alterations?
<AndyFitz> its best to createthose gradients within scribus ..   in scribus the gradient cannot exeed the shapes boundaries
<AndyFitz> all embeded imagery won't import.    right  now the scribus svg importer is quite infant  .  it can import shapes coords and colors  thats about it  well also transparency but its hopeless for gradients
<AndyFitz> this image was not created in inkscape
<AndyFitz> I'm sure of tha
<AndyFitz> Riddell,   join me in #scribus and we'll debug your problem.   its likely to be fixed by exporting to eps and importing to scribus  ( however some recreation may be required )
<AndyFitz> riddell,  so there is no  .ai  file anymore ?
<Riddell> there never was
<speedboy> maybe, artwork developer for Dapper should look at this http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=88477
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-18
<klepas> good night all
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-13
<lapo> hi
<BHSPitLappy> ho
<effraie> any news of feisty-goals?
<kwwii> re
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> hi
<lapo> yo kwwii
<kwwii> howdy lapo
<PseudoPlacebo> Today seems to be a slow IRC day...
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-14
<coz_> very early morning here on the east coast US 12:2AM
<coz_> only11 people here , well that sure is different from #ubuntu
<coz_> lol
<coz_> ok I am off talk another time
<lapo> hi
<jovans> hello i've got a question
<jovans> how to join the ubuntu- artwork team?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-15
* jovans is away: Ich bin beschftigt
* jovans is back (gone 00:04:20)
<jovans> now i had join the artwork team
<jovans> now i had joind the artwork team puh wiki is also created so i am tired go sleep (to bed) hehe ;)
<TheMoebius-Windo> so i saw the slashdot post  re: the almost-artwork proposed for edgy - is it still online? where can i see it?
<troy_s> hrm
<troy_s> what is the link?
<troy_s> i could probably help point you in the proper direction
<troy_s> TheMoebius-Windo: hello?
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  For more information -  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork - Hot from the/n: http://art-staging.ubuntu.com - SLASHDOTTED:  http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/14/2241255&from=rss
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<kwwii> wow, we made slashdot
<Madpilot> the article about the Art Team process?
<kwwii> yeah, amazing
<kwwii> they spellt franks' name wrong the whole time but got mine right
<kwwii> nobody mentions that the kubuntu artwork was on time and rocking
<nysosym> Hi all :)
<troy_s> kwwii - Ubuntu was on time as well.  The difference was the sabdfl quotient.
<lapo> hi
<PingunZ> Hi all
<PingunZ> just wanted to let you know .. I'm back :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-16
<Burgwork> there is a small license issue in the shipped artwork
<Burgwork> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-November/003522.html
<Burgwork> dawn of Ubuntu is cc-nc, which is very much non-free
<troy_s> greets all my fine people.
<BHSPitLappy> and you
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-17
<nysosym> h iall
<troy_s> greets friend.
<nysosym> how are u? :)
<troy_s> hanging in there... a tad busy at present until christmas
<lapo> yo
<troy_s> pingunz
<PingunZ> hi troy_s
<PingunZ> I'm back ;)
<sittisal> when the artwork team will start producing artwork for feisty?
<nysosym> hi all
<nysosym> !seen
<nysosym> !seen fschoep
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-18
<lapo> hi
<klepas> moin
<troy_s> greets boys
<lapo> does anybody feel like helping with gnome icon theme?
<BHSPitLappy> PingunZ, connection troubles?
<PingunZ> BHSPitLappy, Nowp, just  got back to ubuntu, lots of tweaking and rebooting to do :)
<BHSPitLappy> woot...
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-19
<klerfayt> does kubuntu artwork belong here=
<Madpilot> yes
<cbx33> hi gues can I get a png of the nice shiney new glossy ubuntu logo anywhere?
<troy_s> cbx33 you can get the svgs of it and export from there
<cbx33> it's ok I found the png
<troy_s> there is an svg
<troy_s> which is a little more appropriate for scaling
<troy_s> cbx33, i believe the svg is there too.
<troy_s> if not, post a request to the list and austin who will post it when he finds a few seconds.
<cbx33> http://www.progbox.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/ubuntuwordmap.jpg
<cbx33> it was only to create that
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-15
<luisbg> hello all
<luisbg> canon eos 400d vs nikon d40x?
<luisbg> hey _MMA_
<kwwii> hi _MMA_ , luisbg
<kwwii> luisbg: personally I would buy the nikom
<kwwii> erm, nikon
 * _MMA_ is drowning in Ubuntu Studio artwork. (plans on killing anyone who bitches about it when its released)
<kwwii> _MMA_: ever wish you could silence someone through email?
 * kwwii thinks that ubuntu-studio should be green
<kwwii> pink and green
<_MMA_> Green? Ill just copy the Foresight theme and stick it in Ubuntu Studio. "pink and green" is for Hardy+1. ;)
<kwwii> _MMA_: good to see that you have a long term plan :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: Actually Ill probably just copy Ubuntu at that point and change small things. Colors, branding.
<kwwii> _MMA_: you might want to wait until we know the exact design direction before you say that - there have been mumblings that we should stick with brown
<_MMA_> kwwii: Im talking for H+1.
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, so am I - looks like I will be flying to london soon to get final decisions on the art direction for the next whole lts cycle
<_MMA_> Too bad the Black and orange thing looks nixed. Some cool shots came out of that.
<kwwii> I am still pushing for it...we might have to phase out the brown slowly though
<kwwii> the community really discussed it a lot and came up with some good ideas - I would hate to lose out on that
<_MMA_> Yeah. Just walk Mark through the ML posts.
<kwwii> I think he gave up on reading the list - paying me to do it instead
<kwwii> I am just going to present him with stuff that I want and keep the brown to a minimum, see where that gets me
<_MMA_> Sounds like a plan. So are you working on ideas or doing administrative work today?
<kwwii> a little bit of both, had a couple of meetings, and am working on a wallpaper idea
<kwwii> had to do an employee review thingy - what fun
<kwwii> rating yourself
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> "I'm awesome!!" (gimmie a raise)
<kwwii> lol, no doubt
<_MMA_> kwwii: On my iconset, I'm doin' a black stroke to the icons instead of the dark-gray. I think it's looking better. It's giving more contrast with the UI. They blended it too much before.
<kwwii> _MMA_: do you mean the stroke on the outside?
<kwwii> if it is not black, I would suggest making it black but quite transparent
<kwwii> although black might just look nicer
<_MMA_> kwwii: Ill send you a .tar in a little bit so you can take a look.
<kwwii> _MMA_: sounds good
<_MMA_> kwwii: On Inkscape SVN is there a way to make certain toolboxes always come up by default? ie: I would like to have "Fill and Stroke" and "Align and Distribute" com up all the time.
<_MMA_> s/com/come
<_MMA_> kwwii: Look at Richard Johnson's last post to Planet.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I sent the guy who does those sites a heads up
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> <spam>
<_MMA_> Not that people in here dont know but: The Ubuntu Studio project is still looking for community contributions. If interested look over: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
<_MMA_> </spam>
<kwwii> _MMA_: on that level, I am writing an email to the list encouraging people to keep working on Ubuntu ideas for Hardy and pointing out that there are a lot of other derivatives to work on, mind if I point them to that page as well?
<_MMA_> Sure.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Any ideas re: my Inkscape question?
<troy_s> luisbg: Canon 5D
<luisbg> hey troy_s
<luisbg> long time no see
<troy_s> luisbg: Yeah no kidding.
<luisbg> troy_s, I wish I had the money for a canon 5d
<troy_s> luisbg: What are you wanting to spend?
<troy_s> luisbg: Everything else should be considered equivalent.
<luisbg> around 1000 dollars
<luisbg> in euros off course ;)
<troy_s> luisbg: Largely because the CCD / CMOS size is the same (dinky 1.6 multiplier)
<troy_s> luisbg: So don't break your budget.
<troy_s> luisbg: If you want to spend 1000 dollars, your best bet in my opinion is to get an affordable body (All of the digital SLR contenders make ok ones Pentax / Nikon / Canon)
<kwwii> _MMA_: going to pick up my kid from basketball, bbiab
<troy_s> luisbg: Snap up one that will afford you the ability to buy two lenses.
<kwwii> troy_s: I would suggest sticking to nikon or canon though
<troy_s> luisbg: Or one (which will crimping your style)
<kwwii> as they sell more quality lenses in any case
<troy_s> kwwii: Matter of preference -- the good lens makers make for all...
<kwwii> _MMA_: didn't see your inkscape question
<luisbg> troy_s, what are you telling me... to ditch photography?
<troy_s> kwwii: And affordable lenses are made by Tam for example.
<troy_s> luisbg: God no.
<troy_s> lol
<luisbg> troy_s, LOL
<luisbg> troy_s, "affordable body" <- canon eos 400d
<troy_s> luisbg: The best thing from someone who wants to take photos is a tool that will let them do so and achieve the best variety of looks.
<luisbg> but yeah... a second lense is out of my budget if I buy that one
<troy_s> luisbg: Yes... I would think the Canon line is quite cheap.
<luisbg> cheap for the quality it has
<troy_s> luisbg: Let's put it this way, there is at least one photographer out there who has made more than 10 million dollars with broken lenses.
<troy_s> luisbg: And don't worry too much about features
<troy_s> luisbg: The bodies in the Canon line are all very similar for example, with multimetering and shit to bulk up the price
<troy_s> luisbg: Bugger metering -- learn how to use a meter or the spot meter in the camera.
<troy_s> luisbg: Stills photography comes down to fundamentally the same three elements as art -- Content / Composition / Lighting
<luisbg> troy_s, I agree (about the three concepts)
<troy_s> luisbg: Do you have a style / look that you 'like'?
<luisbg> troy_s, vivid color portraits and macros
<troy_s> luisbg: Have you shot much 35mm still photography before?  Do you have a light meter?
<luisbg> troy_s, in black and white with no light meter
<troy_s> luisbg: So let's assume the vivid colour portraiture (along Floria Sigmondisi's styling) is art direction) is more or less outside of the camera body discussion (nerf the semantics of ccd / cmos)
<troy_s> luisbg: If you want to do macro photography, then you will need a cheap macro lens or at least have the 'macro' mode included on your default.
<luisbg> troy_s, I can wait for macro
<troy_s> luisbg: And even then, what type of macro photography are you thinking of?
<luisbg> I need some field experience before that ;)
<troy_s> luisbg: Get the lens with a macro -- there are more than a good number of standard SLR lenses (say in the 30-70 range with a macro flip on the 70 mm end)
<luisbg> troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photos/leightphotography/1987698385/
<luisbg> troy_s, favorite portrait ever
<troy_s> luisbg: Pretty simple stuff to shoot... and that looks like the levels may have been slid slightly in post.
<troy_s> luisbg: The general rule for photography is exactly what most mooky amateurs do
<luisbg> and that is?
<troy_s> luisbg: Put your subject when in direct sunlight such that the sunlight is directly behind the subject
<troy_s> luisbg: So that it is you, subject, sun
<luisbg> that makes a high contrast shadow
<troy_s> luisbg: Not at all
<troy_s> luisbg: it is called backlight
<troy_s> and is exactly what you see in that photo
<troy_s> the 'fill' comes from two places -- either expose for the ambient light (sometimes blowing out background but if you notice the trees are in shade)
<troy_s> or by laying something white in front / to the side of your subject
<troy_s> and the sun will hit it and fill the face
<luisbg> true
<troy_s> the _only_ way to shoot direct sunlight on skin
<troy_s> is using diffusion
<troy_s> the rest looks like shit
<luisbg> yeap
<luisbg> got confused
<luisbg> troy_s, so this are my two options
<troy_s> it creates a hideous rakey light with no 'core'
<luisbg> canon eos 400d with EF-S 18-55mm lense
<troy_s> let me see a link to the lens
<luisbg> or nikon d40x with 18-55 mm and 55-200 mm
<troy_s> i am 100% certain that you can get a decently fast lens with a macro for under 1000 with body
<troy_s> luisbg: the high end is easy to get to with a doubler if you don't mind losing some autofocus and such
<luisbg> doubler?
<troy_s> luisbg: a doubler is deadly cheap and useful to someone who wants to experiment with looks
<troy_s> luisbg: it is a
<troy_s> luisbg: small 'barrel' that is basically a 'bellows' between the lens and the body
<luisbg> ahhh ok
<troy_s> luisbg: it doubles the effective lens length
<luisbg> so it doesn't have to be the same mount type
<luisbg> ahhh no... I see
<troy_s> luisbg: yes... it does.
<troy_s> luisbg: you will be able to get canon doublers for cheap
<troy_s> luisbg: let me see if i can find a cheap macro combination pack
<_MMA_> (conversation interrupting comment)
<luisbg> cool! any links meanwhile I look for links to the lenses?
<troy_s> luisbg: yeah link for body again?
<luisbg> _MMA_, (that's all?)
<luisbg> troy_s, body A http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/
<luisbg> body B http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40x/
<troy_s> luisbg: another thing to remember is that like light, the ccd size is not linear.  for example, going for 'twice' the resolution of a 6mp camera is not 12, its 36
<troy_s> erk
<luisbg> yes
<troy_s> rather the square of the original dimensions... so like 2k by 3k would be 4 by 9 i guess
<troy_s> 4x6 24
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> bad math today
<troy_s> lol
 * _MMA_ wants Troy to install Warsow so he can shoot Troy in the face.
<troy_s> luisbg: i bring that up because there is no sense in going completely bonkers on price to get the extra 4 mp and some crappy 1200 point metering
<luisbg> troy_s, lense A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF-S_18-55mm_lens
<troy_s> luisbg: the best photography will be achieved using your eye and figuring out how you want to expose the image -- the 'frills' are a little bit of a waste in the bang for buck category.
<troy_s> luisbg: is that the bundled lens?
<luisbg> troy_s, yes
<luisbg> camera A goes with lens A canon eos 400d with ef-s 18mm
<luisbg> 18-55mm*
<luisbg> lense B1 http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/1855.htm and...
<troy_s> luisbg: also bear in mind that if you avoid buying the shitty digital lenses
<troy_s> luisbg: your money will go further
<troy_s> luisbg: as when you potentially upgrade to a full 1:1 body, you won't get vignetting.
<luisbg> 1:1 body?
<troy_s> luisbg: a 1:1 body is a body with a ccd/cmos censor the same size as 35mm film.
<luisbg> ahh ok
<troy_s> luisbg: it effectively opens up wide angle photography via lenses without using silly adapters like the 'fixed lens' cameras flog.
<troy_s> luisbg: more importantly, the depth of field is the same as a 35mm camera
<troy_s> luisbg: which is of huge importance to look
<luisbg> lens B2 http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/55200.htm
<luisbg> so... wrap up
<troy_s> yikes that's a slow lens
<luisbg> option A: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF-S_18-55mm_lens
<luisbg> or
<troy_s> How much is the Canon body?
<luisbg> option B: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40x/        http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/1855.htm     http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/55200.htm
<luisbg> troy_s, where I'm buying I can't get the body alone (I need financing)
<troy_s> luisbg:  that 2nd lens would be effectively useless at 5.6
<luisbg> lol
<luisbg> so it's not worth it
<troy_s> luisbg: not the 2nd.
<luisbg> the first?
<troy_s> luisbg: aim for the main market in that line -- the 18-sub hundred mm (in digital is that?)
<troy_s> luisbg: basically a 35mm equiv of say 30-70 that is fast -- 2.8.  it should be affordable.
<luisbg> I don't understand you
<troy_s> (and by fast i don't mean super fast, but fast enough to shoot with available tungsten light and considerations)
<troy_s> luisbg: let me look at a local photo site... hold on.
<luisbg> ok
<troy_s> luisbg: christ i can't find one quickly.  they are very common in 35mm and if the mount is the same it would work fine.
<troy_s> luisbg: what makes you want that 40D?
<luisbg> 400d?
<troy_s> luisbg: yes sorry
<luisbg> I'm looking for an affordable dslr with good image quality
<troy_s> luisbg: what is the price difference say, between the digi rebel 300d and 400d there?
<luisbg> what else would I want?
<luisbg> digi rebel 300d is out of the market
<troy_s> luisbg: you are aware that _any_ of those digital slrs (and I mean any -- pentax / canon / nikon's are in the same magnifcation class at the same price point) will seriously outshoot any of the 'all in one' pocketcameras.
<luisbg> I would go with 350d if I could find it here (I'm sure the difference of price would mean getting an other lens for the same bucks)
<luisbg> yeah... that's why I don't want a pocketcamera
<luisbg> and since I want a slr... I want the best for my little budget
<troy_s> luisbg: or getting a more versatile lens.  the main lens components for versatility are lens length versatility with speed of lens (how fast the lens is)
<troy_s> luisbg: and with your budget, you don't want to over shell out for the body and crimp your ability to shoot
<luisbg> troy_s, I understand what you are saying
<troy_s> luisbg: 2.8 is a minimum speed at the wider angle (a still camera lens shifts f value as you go longer as compared to a motion picture camera that holds the f value constant as you zoom)
<troy_s> luisbg: by minimum speed i mean 'minimum speed that you would find useful'
<luisbg> troy_s, is the ef-s 18-55 lense a versatile lens?
<troy_s> luisbg:  that extra stop of light is a huge bump when shooting say -- interior.
<troy_s> luisbg: let me scour the link again
<troy_s> luisbg: that size looks about right for the class.
<luisbg> troy_s, do you want to move this chat to a PM
<luisbg> it's getting big ;)
<troy_s> luisbg: sure.
<kwwii> luisbg: if you want a versatile lense by something like an 18-200 or so, it might be a bit more expensive but it will cover much more range
<kwwii> but in the cheaper stuff you will be barrel distortion, purple fringing, sharpness problems and they will not be too dark (the fstop stuff troy_s was talking about)
<luisbg> kwwii, I can have a 18-135mm with the nikon inside my budget
<kwwii> that 18-135 is a pretty good lense, all in all
<kwwii> for an inexpensive lense
<kwwii> they also make zooms which do not change in fstop, they are just really expensive
<kwwii> I am thinking about buying a 200-200 Nikor for christmas with a constant 2.8 but it costs like 6500 euros
<luisbg> ouch
<luisbg> that's a lot of money
<luisbg> nikon d40x body with this http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06080902nikonafsdx18-135lens.asp <-- 900 euros
<kwwii> yepp, but it will be the last telephoto lense I ever buy ;-)
<kwwii> luisbg: I have that lense as well...not a bad "every day" lense
<luisbg> kwwii, yeah... good thing is that these are investments for life
<luisbg> not like laptops ;)
<kwwii> are you buying it in a kit together or seperatly?
<luisbg> kit together
<kwwii> cool, you get the lense for almost nothing that way
<troy_s> luisbg: and no, you will be upgrading to the 1:1s when they become prolific.  just make sure your glass is 35mm as opposed to that shitty 'D' marker.
<troy_s> luisbg: there are hundreds of camera shops with 2nd hand 35mm lenses... go use them.
<troy_s> luisbg: on that note, a prime lens will always perform better than a zoom, and you can get them for quite cheap in a 2nd hand shoppe.
<kwwii> just be carefull when buying used lenses, and make sure that it has autofocus
<kwwii> and honestly, with the kit prices you almost get the lense for free
<kwwii> but I do agree with the comment that should not buy the DX lenses
<luisbg> kwwii, the bad thing about nikon d40x is that focus motor is in the lens... so no autofocus if not nikkor lens
<kwwii> as a normal lense really is an investment for a lifetime, whereas the DX lenses is an investment for as long as you have a camera with a smaller sensor
<troy_s> luisbg: not a big deal
<troy_s> luisbg: if you are taking portrait shots (as seems to be what you want) manual focus is completely fine.
<luisbg> so this lens are DX or 35mm?
<kwwii> pretty much any nikon lense made in the last 10 years will be autofuocus (and any of the other lense manufacturers)
<luisbg> troy_s, I'm not sure yet if that's going to be my "style"... I have to find it shooting stuff (with a camera not a gun)
<kwwii> DX means that it is made for the smaller sensor
<troy_s> luisbg: the D shit is digital.  it means that the glass isn't as big inside and that will mean vignetting as you increase your receptor size. (read useless when you upgrade to a real 1:1 body)
<kwwii> but manual focus on a digital camera is not what you want
<kwwii> as you do not have any way of knowing when it is really sharp
<troy_s> ???
<kwwii> chemical film cameras had the nifty grids with blocks and such to know when it was really sharp, digital cameras do not have that
<kwwii> you will find that many of the pics you thought were sharp are not sharp
 * troy_s outs.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-16
<kwwii> lassegul2: ping?
<robertj> is the source artwork available for th lion and elephant wallpaper? I've got a 2560x1600 monitor on the way and want a nice version of that wallpaper sans ubuntu logo
<robertj> (gnome-look as it with the logo at that res)
<Viper550> hello?
<hbons> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-17
<nothlit> 2
<Cimi> kwwii, a dark theme using clearlooks http://gnomelook.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/69913-1.jpg
<Cimi> maybe we could ship this as an alternate dark theme to the light one
<_MMA_> Cimi: You have to think about disk size and support.
<Cimi> ?
<_MMA_> Also, how does that theme work with Firefox, OO.o and Gnome-control-center? Theres are issues we have with Ubuntu Studio.
<Cimi> _MMA_, obviusly a dark theme won't NEVER be ready for a default desktop theme
<_MMA_> Cimi: Shipping multiple themes adds to the disk size. They are really tight now. And adding another theme will gemerate more theme-related bug-reports.
<Cimi> but as an alternative
<Cimi> to the guys that code
<Cimi> than develop most of the day
<Cimi> etc etc
<_MMA_> Cimi: Once the design direction is settled I think its best to have the people that want to help, work on the main idea/theme that working on alternatives. There's so much work to be done most people dont even realize. :(
<Cimi> I've rewritten the murrine code actually
<Cimi> it's a lot moe polished and bug-free
<Cimi> *more
<Cimi> I've an svn repository
<_MMA_> And while people are putting out cool examples I am pessimistic as to how many will really help. :(
<Cimi> http://viewvc.intilinux.com/viewvc.cgi/cimi/murrine/
<_MMA_> Cimi: Cool. Ill have our guy update.
<Cimi> http://viewvc.intilinux.com/viewvc.cgi/cimi/murrine/ChangeLog?revision=19&view=markup
<Cimi> here's the current changelog between 0.53.1
 * _MMA_ looks.
<andreasn> kwwii: ping
<_MMA_> Hi andreasn.
<andreasn> hi!
<andreasn> what's up?
<_MMA_> Not much. Trying not to get sicked into Ubuntu work. ;)
<_MMA_> *sucked
<_MMA_> Trying to just enjoy the Saturday.
<andreasn> :)
<rexbron> Cimi: Ping
<Cimi> rexbron, pong
<rexbron> Cimi: _MMA_ pointed out that the 0.6 changelog has been commited to svn, is there an eta on an official tarball?
<rexbron> for murrine
<Cimi> nothing now
<Cimi> but when I'll make a make distcheck there will be the tarball
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> hi Cimi
<kwwii> Cimi: what is the name of that dark theme, I would like to try it out
<kwwii> looks like I get to read up on the art list tonight
<kwwii> missed a lot sleeping all day :p
<_MMA_> :)
<Cimi> kwwii, did you read my second email?
<kwwii> Cimi: yeah, just read it...I'll see what I can do - I imagine we can work something out
<Cimi> kwwii, I've in mind the idea of adding a second style for murrine where the user can specify the gradients of every widget
<Cimi> something like
<Cimi> top_highlight_ratio = 1.1
<Cimi> center_highlight_ratio = 1.0
<Cimi> bottom_highlight_ratio = 0.9
<kwwii> Cimi: wow, that sounds like a good idea if done properly...where would the colors come from?
<Cimi> the colors are gtkrc colors
<Cimi> bg[normall] etc etc
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> I gotta eat dinner now, but I will be back in a bit
<Cimi> the ratio is read by cairo to enlight them
<Cimi> ok
<kwwii> re
<Cimi> we
<Viper550> So, they say there are plans for Gobuntu's artwork, right?
<_MMA_> Viper550: Kinda slow on the weekends but yes, I think its up for submissions.
<Viper550> I was told there was already plans...let me check
<Viper550> _MMA_ http://bay01.imagebay.com/_upload/img/23/gobuntugreenwip.jpg
<_MMA_> Whats that?
<Cimi> Aurora engine is too slow for a desktop proposal
<Cimi> it is the slowest engine ever written :)
<Viper550> my idea for a possible look for Gobuntu. We can use ClearLooks too
<_MMA_> Viper550: kwwii will be the best guy to talk to.
<Cimi> Clearlooks has exactly the same look (with better scrollbars) and 200% speed
<Viper550> yeah, looks smoother
<Cimi> exactly
<Viper550> Not Ubuntulooks, personally, I think we should give ClearLooks another try in a Gnome-based Ubuntu
<Viper550> Though, is Xubuntu using the new gloss mode for Clearlooks?
<Cimi> personally, I've spent more time when developing Cleralooks for gnome 2.20 than what I've done for my murrine engine
<Cimi> Viper550, it is using murrine
<Cimi> btw
<Viper550> Oh, cool
<Cimi> the glossy I've added to clearlooks
<_MMA_> We really have to wait until kwwii has his meeting with Mark. We'll know what we can do after that.
<Cimi> is using similar gradients to the one I've added to murrine
<Viper550> no wonder it suspicially looked alot like that
<Viper550> also, I was thinking a different wallpaper obviously.
<Cimi> Viper550, I'm the copyright owner of murrine so I can do what I like :D
<Viper550> I know, and it's GPL
<Viper550> Have you seen that new Nodoka one?
<Cimi> you mean murrine 0.53.1 with a different name?
<Viper550> really?
<Cimi> yes
<Cimi> take the nodoka theme
<Cimi> change the engine to murrine
<Cimi> and you'll have a similar theme
<Cimi> (better looking)
<Cimi> (without the ugly progressbars)
<Cimi> the code is 99% the same
<Cimi> with a different name
<Cimi> replace "murrine" "nodoka"
<Viper550> oh.
<Viper550> I didn't know that, looks like Murrine but with a bit more of a ClearLooks like style.
<_MMA_> Viper550: Funny thing is you can do just that in a gtkrc file.
<Viper550> really....? wow.
<_MMA_> Yeah. Ill get you the example a guy from Ars showed me at UDS.
<lukeen> Cimi: murrine is based on clearlooks, isn't it?
<Viper550> murrine is based off candido, which I think was based off clearlooks
<lukeen> so what is nodoka based on/off?
<Viper550> nodoka is based off murrine
<Viper550> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Interviews/MartinSourada he did explain his rationale though
<_MMA_> Viper550: http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/08/21/how-to-make-a-gtk-theme-that-uses-multiple-theme-engines
<Cimi> Viper550, I'm the creator of Candido, Murrine and Clearlooks (since 2.18 but expecially 2.20 as you can see the improvements)
<lukeen> ok, so the author said it IS based on murrine. well i've read much about nodoka but i never read the word murrine. after reading cimis words here i thought the nodoka author did NOT give credit and such...
<Viper550> Also, I do love that new feature of being able to specify your own colors for GTK themes in the Appearance menu, it's awesome
<lukeen> Cimi: you did a great job for gnome, but this nodoka guy was in the news, why didn't you?
<Cimi> in which news?
<Cimi> you mean gnome 2.20 release notes?
<_MMA_> Cimi: I think what we "see" are "changes" to Clearlooks. I'm sure there are "improvements" under the hood though. ;)
<Cimi> _MMA_, what do you mean?
<_MMA_> Cimi: That personally I dont like the "look" of the newer Clearlooks. I like your work on Murrine better but Im sure "code-wise" Clearlooks has "improved".
<lukeen> Cimi: i've read much about nodoka theme on news sites (i don't remember which, but distrowatch for example) but i saw your name only because of your engines or on the gnome devel sites...
<Cimi> I'm not interested in fame :)
<lukeen> :) ok thats cool ...  well, for me you are a gnome-style-hero :D because you made it much more beautiful! i just want to say thank you cimi
<Cimi> thanks lukeen  :)
<Cimi> _MMA_, the look of newer clearlooks is absolutely amazing. I'm no longer using murrine since april
<_MMA_> "amazing" is an opinion. ;)
<Cimi> btw from a code point of vew
<Cimi> of course ;)
<Cimi> and I guess people generally share my ideas
<Cimi> but I'm not afraid if someone says that Murrine is better :D
<Cimi> it's a compliment in both cases
<Cimi> ehehe
<_MMA_> The big complaint I heard about the new Clearlooks at UDS was the gradient on the tabs. In the default state I guess. I dont know how much they can be tweaked.
<lukeen> Cimi: dont become boastful ;)
<lukeen> well my opinion is: clearlooks is really beautiful now, but, i miss something more unique, you know, something people keep in mind. dont you think?
<Cimi> _MMA_, wait 1 second
<Cimi> http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2007/11/05/nuove-tabs-per-clearlooks-gummy-non-uccidetemi/
<Cimi> sorry for the italian
<Cimi> nodoka or murrine? :) http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6870/schermatakc8.png
<Viper550> looks more like Nodoka
<Viper550> or maybe you mixed it up
<Cimi> Viper550, it is murrine with some options in the gtkrc
<Cimi> you can get the same look
<Viper550> gonna experiment with the 2 engines
<Cimi> Viper550, 1 engine
<Cimi> the engine is the same with a different name
<Viper550> and different default options?
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> but for example
<Cimi> nodoka engine
<Cimi> ignores the highlight_ratio
<Cimi> hilight_ratio  = 0.909090909 in murrine
<Cimi> same look
<Viper550> oh
<Cimi> in fact
<Cimi> it's really hard for me to read
<Cimi> "So, now I think I know that the differences are too significant to merge with Murrine, we removed a lot of original code and added a lot of ours, the engines went different ways, if we'd try to merge, it would lead to losses in rendering speed."
<Cimi> too significant?
<Cimi> "and added a lot of ours"
<Cimi> wtf????
<_MMA_> lol. Cimi. I was gonna ask exactly that. The "hilight_ratio" thing. For Hardy we're going for a flatter look but I wanted to still use Murrine.
<Viper550> even THAT confuses me. maybe "ours" in his own?
<Cimi> lol
<Cimi> i haven't received NOTHING
<Cimi> NO EMAILS FROM HIM
<Cimi> NO ONE
<Cimi> nothing as
<Cimi> "thanks for murrine"
<Cimi> nothing
<Cimi> nothing
<Cimi> nothing
<_MMA_> Well email their list explaining it all and see what they say.
<Cimi> I'm really bad in english...
<_MMA_> At the very least its yet another package they have to needlessly maintain.
<Cimi> I will probably eplain it with wrong words
<Viper550> also, where the heck are the distro packages on your site? I can't find them
<Cimi> causing them to hate or blame me :)
<Viper550> I use Gutsy
<Viper550> nm
<Cimi> packages for what?
<Viper550> it's in universe! yay!
<Viper550> murrine
<Cimi> yes
<Cimi> rexbron package it
<_MMA_> Yeah. We'll get it updated to .60 soon.
<Cimi> _MMA_, would you like to help me to write the right words for nodoka guys?
<_MMA_> Hmm... :) Ok. Write up something and we'll go from there.
<Viper550> also, do the themes on your site support Gnome's new custom color support?
<Cimi> ;)
<Cimi> Viper550, no one
<Viper550> You know how to use that?
<Cimi> I expect murrine 0.60 to have the colorscheme support
<_MMA_> You could simple send a email to their list asking why and explain that their changes were unneeded. Showing examples.
<Cimi> Viper550, of course
<Cimi> we are now working to implement the colorscheme support
<_MMA_> *simply
<Cimi> like in kde for example
<Cimi> various colorschemes for each theme
<Viper550> I mean, in the appearance properties on Gnome 2.20, you can specify custom colors without having to hack into the file.
<Viper550> most of the colors are now "aliases", and can be changed by the user
<Cimi> I perfectly now
<Cimi> I'm writing themes everyday :)
<lukeen> color sheme support is absolutely necessary IMHO
<Cimi> http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1431/schemesrp3.png
<Cimi> this is a screenshot from the guy who is implementing it
<lukeen> will this saved shemes be global? or per theme?
<Viper550> global, you can also have a default color scheme per theme
<Cimi> per theme
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> per theme
<lukeen> very cool
<Cimi> it's a choice
<Cimi> you can add
<Cimi> colorscheme.ini
<Cimi> into your theme
<Cimi> and the schemes specified
<Viper550> oh
<Cimi> will be listed into the combobox you can see on the right
<_MMA_> And Murrine .6 will support this?
<Viper550> so you're going beyond what Ubuntu has right now...awesome!
<Cimi> _MMA_, this is a gtk/gnome things
<Cimi> also murrine/nodoka will support it
<_MMA_> Cimi: Thats what I asked.
<Cimi> every engine
<Cimi> except the pixpuf
<Cimi> *pixbuf
<Cimi> you just need a gtkrc with colorscheme support
<Viper550> and a version of Gnome with that option inside the Appearance settings
 * _MMA_ makes a note to add this to his Ubuntu Studio's gtkrc.
<_MMA_> Viper550: Its already in Ubuntu.
<Viper550> Gutsy?
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> _MMA_, in the screenhot
<Viper550> oh so this is for Hardy?
<Cimi> there's a combobox
<_MMA_> NO!
<Cimi> Viper550, yes
<Viper550> Okay...can't wait! Makes sense to launch it on Hardy
<_MMA_> Viper550: Its in Gutsy now. Not all engines support it.
<Cimi> gutsy has gnome 2.20
<_MMA_> And?
<Cimi> it only support colorscheme
<Cimi> not the one I've just linked to viper
<Cimi> with a lot of colorschemes for each theme
<Cimi> did you see the combobox on the right?
<lukeen> this will get into 2.22?
<Cimi> sure
<lukeen> k
<Cimi> _MMA_, I'm thinking to add a new style for murrine
<Cimi> which will be much more custimizable
<_MMA_> Viper550: Are asking for "Global" support or "per theme"?
<Cimi> if mark will support the development I will take a look into it
<Viper550> Global support could be nice, and per theme would be good too
<Cimi> _MMA_, for example
<_MMA_> Viper550: Global support is there now.
<Cimi> I want to add ability to specify single gradient capability
<_MMA_> Cimi: Do what you want. Dont base you decision on what Mark wants.
<Viper550> so there's like a .colors or something?
<Cimi> _MMA_, I must follow mark's decisions
<_MMA_> ?
<_MMA_> No you dont.
<_MMA_> Why? :)
<Cimi> kwwii said this to me
<Cimi> he said me and him will follow mark's decisions
<_MMA_> lol. No. Trust me. They might ask yo uto add things but you arent bound by anything.
<_MMA_> Unless he's paying you for development. :)
<Cimi> in fact
<Cimi> I will help him if he will pay me :)
<Cimi> he payed for the human icons
<_MMA_> Sure, but you arent bound by anything so add the features you want.
<_MMA_> Viper550: Global support is there: http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Screenshot.png
<Cimi> I think more gradient support for murrine will be amazing
<_MMA_> Sure. Id like to see it.
<Viper550> uhh, I mean be able to not have themes specify custom color schemes, but have a "global pool" of presets like on KDE
<Cimi> but at the same time I can't work for days and weeks for free
<Cimi> just for him
<_MMA_> Sure. Thing is since we're syncing the package from Debian now we have to update sooner and the version will be harder to update.
<_MMA_> If it were a Ubuntu package it would give us more time.
<Cimi> what do you mean with it?
<Cimi> I lost the connection between murrine, money for development, and debian :D
<_MMA_> "_MMA_: Sure. Thing is since we're syncing the package from Debian now we have to update sooner and the version will be harder to update.
<_MMA_> _MMA_: If it were a Ubuntu package it would give us more time."
<Viper550> I was trying to make scrollbar color specified with @fg_color but it didn't work
<Cimi> Viper550, new murrine version will support it
<Viper550> oh
<Cimi> but gtk version must be bumped up to 2.12
<Cimi> so everyone with gnome 2.18 will be out
<Viper550> also, I did hack up a "murrine theme" that can use the custom color schemes....sacrificing the scrollbar color support
<Viper550> I just took ClearLooks and changed it to the Murrine engine
<Cimi> Viper550, for scrollbar support specified by bg_selected
<Cimi> just wait 0.60
<Viper550> Okay
<Cimi> for the ability to specify your symbolic color
<Cimi> i.e:
<Cimi> scrollbar_color = darker (@bg_Selected_color)
 * _MMA_ sticks with Murrine because he can define 3 colors for tabs. (though this might have been added to Clearlooks.
<Cimi> I MUST require gtk 2.12
<Cimi> as gtk 2.10 and lower are not supporting symcolic colors in the engine section of the gtkrc
<Cimi> _MMA_, ?
<_MMA_> No sorry. Got that wrong. 1 color for the background. 1 for inactive tab and 1 for active.
<_MMA_> Gives me 3 depths.
<Cimi> same as clearlooks :\
<Cimi> btw for a dark theme as ubuntulooks maybe murrine is a good choice
<_MMA_> New or old?
<_MMA_> ?
<Cimi> bg[normal] is supported by both
<Cimi> bg[selected] by both
<_MMA_> Bad English. :)
<Cimi> bg[actiev] by both
<Cimi> sorry
<Viper550> glazestyle 4 is epic.
<Cimi> I'd like to add the ability do change the upper, mid, mid-lower and lower gradient of all widgets
<Cimi> then to set the position of the highlight
<Cimi> for example
<lukeen> and customizable hilight curves hehe ?
<Cimi> I can put on the top of the button the glossy effect
<_MMA_> Cimi: Like I said "though this might have been added to Clearlooks."
<_MMA_> "New" Clearlooks does this now it looks. "Old" didnt.
<Cimi> lukeen, this is nearly impossible
<Cimi> _MMA_, of course, I've added it in april :)
<lukeen> Cimi: much of hard work, but not impossible ;)
<Cimi> lukeen, do you have some experience in cairo drawings?
<lukeen> no
<Cimi> so
<Cimi> ;)
<Cimi> I must blame you
<Cimi> it's not so simple
<lukeen> i did not mean it really seriously :)
<Viper550> think you could add an option for the ubuntulooks like scrollbars?
<lukeen> and i sure belief that it's not simple
<Cimi> Viper550, no
<Cimi> ubuntulooks is imho ugly from the first to the last widget
<Cimi> mmm
<_MMA_> I dont think Ubuntulooks is gonna be used as alot of talk at UDS mentioned using Murrine. But who knows.
<Cimi> checkbuttons are nice
<Cimi> _MMA_, kwwii said to me Murrine was chosen
<_MMA_> "Cimi: ubuntulooks is imho ugly from the first to the last widget" <- An example on language differences. (can be seen as mean words) :)
<Cimi> _MMA_, could you write an email to the fedora lists? :D
<lukeen> Cimi: what do you think: which engine has cleaner code, which is faster? clearlooks or murrine?
<_MMA_> Cimi: Sure but Mark can always make Ken change his mind. Thats why I said "But who knows?"
<Cimi> _MMA_, ok
<_MMA_> Cimi: Well as I dont know all the details I think you should start the 1st email and I can help revise (better the language) it.
<Cimi> lukeen, clearner code: Clearlooks
<Cimi> faster (with flat themes) Murrine
<Cimi> rounded themes Clearlooks
<Cimi> but Murrine 0.60 will have a very polished code
<Cimi> I've spent a day in polishing it
<lukeen> nice to hear murrine developmet is continuing
<Cimi> lukeen, I've a subversion repository
<lukeen> hehe? ;)
<Cimi> http://viewvc.intilinux.com/viewvc.cgi/cimi/murrine/
<Viper550> how do you make the buttons on Murrine look like the Nonoko ones?
<Viper550> I mean nodoka
<Cimi> hilight_ratio = 0.909090
<Cimi> in the murrine options
<Viper550> on what button style?
<Cimi> ?
<Cimi> eh
<Cimi> yes
<Viper550> nm
<Cimi> glazestyle = 0
<Viper550> glaze style 1 and that .909090
<Cimi> Viper550, seen the magic? :D
<Viper550> awesome.
<Cimi> lol
<Viper550> we truly need to re bringup Murrine on ubuntu-artwork mailing list
<Viper550> I'm working on a little mockup with this glossy look and the Human colors
<Cimi> Viper550, there are a lot of improvements in stability
<Cimi> over 0.53.1
<Cimi> in the svn version
<Viper550> cool
<Cimi> in fact
<_MMA_> Viper550: Trust me. Its being looked at.
<Cimi> both ubuntulooks aurora and nodoka
<Cimi> have leaks
<Viper550> I'm going to try modding the only original part of nodoka
<Cimi> and some malloc problems
<Viper550> the metacity
<Cimi> which imho is really poor =)
<_MMA_> Viper550: But I would wait till kwwii has the final word on the direction for making too many mock-ups.
<Cimi> exaclty
<Viper550> I'm just preparing for that moment
<Cimi> actually it's just a waste of time
<Cimi> I will expect a lot of forks from murrine 0.60 :D
<_MMA_> At UDS we were all sure (including kwwii) that the theme was gonna be orange and black. Now brown is staying in there to some degree.
<Viper550> orange and black.....that would have been uber...or better for Ubuntu Studio
<_MMA_> Well kwwii made jokes he was gonna steal it. ;)
<Viper550> yeah, maybe add it to the repos when Halloween comes around XD
<_MMA_> But everyone is free to do whatever.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-18
<Viper550> I so wanna see ubuntu-themes-ubuntuween
<Cimi> _MMA_, I've convinced kwwii after the uds that a dark theme will be the end of ubuntu :)
<lukeen> looks like a new version of aurora was just released...
<Cimi> maybe slower and bad coded than the previous ;)
<Cimi> aurora it's a pain between hacks and dangerous things
<_MMA_> I dont think so at all. Dark themes can be done. We've proved that. It came down to Mark not wanting it for some reason. A misscommunication somewhere.
<lukeen> guys: what do you think about this icon theme? http://bomahy.nl/hylke/blog/ubuntu-icon-theme/
<Cimi> _MMA_, please don't tell me ubuntulooks is a great theme...
<Cimi> lukeen, too saturated and child-ish
<_MMA_> Where did I say that?
<Cimi> We've proved tha
<Cimi> t
<_MMA_> "Ubuntu Studio"
<Cimi> sorry
<Cimi> ubuntu studio
<Viper550> wow, those icons are hot!
<Cimi> imho ubuntustudio is not a *great* black theme
<_MMA_> "Dark themes can be done. We've (Ubuntu Studio) proved that."
<Cimi> exatly
<Cimi> I've said ubuntulooks but i was meaning ubuntustudio
<Cimi> sorry
<Cimi> it's a way better than nodoka and ubuntu default theme
<Viper550> also, I like that cute Firefox icon he also made.
<Cimi> but I won't chose it as default
<_MMA_> Cimi: Its still widely regarded as the best out there minus some app issues the dont use GTK in standard ways.
<Cimi> Viper550, firefox 3 will have a tango theme
<Cimi> _MMA_, a lot of guys like the vista-like look
<Cimi> I personally don't like it
<lukeen> ff3 should look more like the os it is running on
<Viper550> so on Linux, Firefox will take on the Gnome icon theme chosen?
<Cimi> even if is using my engine :)
<Cimi> btw tastes are tastes
<_MMA_> blah. The gloss on the Feisty theme was not on purpose. We had that in the works since Vista was Longhorn.
<Cimi> Viper550, yes
<_MMA_> In Gutsy the gloss is gone.
<Viper550> awesome
<_MMA_> Hardy will loose it totally.
<Cimi> _MMA_, also for panels?
<_MMA_> Yes.
<lukeen> glossy is outdated i've read...
<Cimi> great
<_MMA_> http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Screenshot-1.png
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
<Cimi> _MMA_, much better
<Cimi> really
<Cimi> in any case
<Cimi> the human eye can't switch between a dark background to bright colors
<Cimi> i.e. black bg and white base
<Cimi> it will lose contrast and sharpness
<Cimi> and the eye will be stressed more than it should
<lukeen> yes, dark themes just bring to much problems....
<_MMA_> troy_s: Wanna handle this one. ^^^
<Cimi> _MMA_, for example see LCD panels like Aquos by Sharp (TM)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Go for me my brother.
<Cimi> there's a technolosy to improve contrast by enlightnening on the side of the tv
<Cimi> so the eye will see more contrast
<_MMA_> troy_s: Your much more eloquent/knowledgeable on this one.
<Viper550> hmm, for Hardy and Ubuntu Studio, I'm gonna try and get them onto Crux
<_MMA_> Crux?
<Cimi> _MMA_, I've a Pantone huey for my monitor
<Cimi> it automatically adjust gamma and color ranges
<Cimi> by controlling the ambient light
<Viper550> that metalish purple theme
<Viper550> it still comes with Gnome after all these years. They even updated it to Cairo
<Cimi> Viper550, horrible for my tastes :D
<troy_s> _MMA_: What were we talking about?  lol.
<Viper550> but for Ubuntu Studio, it looks a bit like a professional editing application theme
<_MMA_> Cimi: There's a reason why pro audio/video/photo apps use colors like we do. Or why we copy them rather.
<Cimi> _MMA_, a WHOLE dark theme
<Cimi> is much better than a light theme
<Viper550> but, Crux by default isn't "too dark"
<Cimi> as it is much more relaxing
<_MMA_> troy_s: "Cimi: the human eye can't switch between a dark background to bright colors. i.e. black bg and white base. it will lose contrast and sharpness. and the eye will be stressed more than it should"
<troy_s> _MMA_: If you are aiming to be 'professional' the most 'professionally' close (say to a Nuke / Shake) is Blender in terms of looks.
<Cimi> _MMA_, blender
<Viper550> Their model are programs like Avid Studio
<Cimi> ardour
<Cimi> and other apps
<Cimi> are TOTALLY black
<Cimi> they don't have contrast between BLACK and WHITE
<Cimi> i'm saying that the problems in the ubuntustudio theme is just that contrast
<Cimi> with is bad for the human eye
<troy_s> _MMA_: Any time I see the word 'eyestress' it conjures mythical beliefs.  There has been countless research done that the notions of 'eyestrain' are rubbish when it comes to 'looking'.  Moving the eye around a lot will strain it and actually make it fatigue.  But that is rolling your orbital from one side to the other, not just moving it around a screen say.
<Cimi> I've nothing against dak themes
<_MMA_> Cimi: I dont agree at all sorry.
<troy_s> Cimi: Ardour isn't a professional application though so I would argue that it isn't a wonderful comparison point.
<Cimi> _MMA_, maybe you don't have a monitor like mines
<Cimi> 1500:1 of contrast
<troy_s> Cimi: Perhaps comparing to Nuke or ProTools would be.
<Cimi> black/white is a bit harder for me
<Cimi> troy_s, I've said for colors
<_MMA_> I use this theme for hours on end for over a year. I just need links to back up the "eye strain" thing. ;)
<Cimi> a whole dark theme
<Cimi> like adobe aperture
<troy_s> Its an aesthetic.  And granted aesthetics are volatile grounds for debates, in the end, the whole of the argument is aesthetic and subjective.
<Cimi> this is not an aesthetic thing
<Cimi> as I've said
<Cimi> there are a lot of strumentation (professional)
<troy_s> 1500:1 contrast is nothing.
<troy_s> CRTs deliver 10x that
<Cimi> troy_s, I've a crt too
<Cimi> which is more harder to live with ubuntustudio theme
<_MMA_> Viper550: Just talk to me here as I am also coordinating the art for Ubuntu Studio here. (or in a PM) I dont sit in #ubuntustudio on the weekends.
<Viper550> Okay
<Cimi> I was saying
<Cimi> there are a lof ot strumentation
<Viper550> I was thinking about Crux as their engine since it's underrated, and it's also kinda got that look they want
<Cimi> that sets colors and contrast by seeing whole luminance of the area
<Cimi> and the ambient light
<_MMA_> Viper550: "their" and "they"?
<Viper550> they as in ubuntustudio
<_MMA_> Viper550: Oh. You dont know. Im the lead on it.
<_MMA_> I wrote all the WIKI pages. "C.Kontros"
<Cimi> _MMA_, you should fix the colors in the comboboxes
<Viper550> Oh, cool. Anyway, Crux does kinda have that "media application" look
<Cimi> see the gaim state combobox
<Cimi> it has a dark text color
<Cimi> should be white I guess
<_MMA_> Cimi: I like the black myself but can that be changed?
<Cimi> of course
<Cimi> in the gtkrc
<_MMA_> Cimi: Once .6 is in the repos Ill get with you to look over some of the text colors. I do think some of it can be tweaked.
<Cimi> _MMA_, I'm not thinking of releasing 0.6
<Cimi> I'd like to wait kwwii directions
<_MMA_> Ok. Either way. once it does get in we can look at the Ubuntu Studio text colors then.
<Cimi> mmm
<Cimi> imho
<Cimi> it's just
<Cimi> _MMA_, where's the gtkrc?
<_MMA_> We'll mess with it later. ;)
<Cimi> btw menu_item
<Cimi> and fgprelight
<Cimi> probably
 * _MMA_ stops neglecting his family and shuts the laptop lid. Later guys.
<troy_s> Cimi: Being an expert in GTK coding, how easy would it be to create something akin to Mist but with rounded (very slight) corners (somewhere about 3 in Murrine radius)
<troy_s> ?
<Cimi> you can do this with murrine
<troy_s> !?
<Cimi> hilight_ratio = 0.909090
<Cimi> gradients = FALSE
<Cimi> roundness = 3
<Cimi> thta's it
<troy_s> Cimi: Do you have a screenshot?!
<Cimi> troy_s, try it
<troy_s> Cimi: Erk... ok...
<Cimi> add those options in the engine section of the gtkrc
<troy_s> Cimi: That eliminates all of the nasty glossy looks etc?
<Cimi> yes
<troy_s> Cimi: Keeps it gradient / flat?
<troy_s> Wow.
<troy_s> How lovely!
<Cimi> =)
<troy_s> ok ... I'll need to experiment with it.
<_MMA_> troy_s: I did this tonight for Ubuntu Studio-Hardy. ;)
<troy_s> Awsome work by the way Cimi -- great to see you in here.
<troy_s> Mist is a darn strong engine, if it just was a little more 'refined' with antialiased rounded corners etc.
<Cimi> murrine is very powerful in that way
<Cimi> probably the code is more complicated than clearlooks
<Cimi> but you can do a lot of things in customization
<troy_s> Cimi: If I can do that, I would be elated...
<Cimi> (obviusly it is complicated you've 100 styles in one engine) :D
<troy_s> greets luisbg
<Cimi> one moment troy_s I try
<Cimi> troy_s, 1: http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/8996/screenshot1tb5.png
<Cimi> just added those 3 options to a theme
<troy_s> Cimi: Is there a way to create a highlight line?
<Cimi> mmm
<troy_s> Cimi: Being a sort of light direction
<troy_s> Cimi: If it were a rectangle, the left/top would be lighter than the bottom/right for example.
<Cimi> not with roundness = 3
<troy_s> Cimi: No roundness it can do it yes?
<Cimi> yes
<Cimi> if I remember well...
<Cimi> not sure
<troy_s> Cimi: Is that a tricky code bit to get it with roundness?
<_MMA_> troy_s: http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/UbuntuStudio-Hardy.tar.gz
<troy_s> Cimi: Great wood in the bg by the way
<troy_s> _MMA_: What is that?
<_MMA_> Tinkering with Hardy's theme.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Screenshot?
<Cimi> troy_s, http://www.cimitan.com/blog/wp-content/new-gummy-tabs-2.png
<_MMA_> No. The theme.
<_MMA_> troy_s: just DL and drop in the theme manager.
<troy_s> Cimi: Can you turn the tab 'striping' on and off with Murrine (the blue bar in your screenshot)
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> those two changes
<_MMA_> troy_s: I still dont know if it will work with the design direction. I might take the stripes off the menubar.
<Cimi> (highlight of buttons and tabs)
<Cimi> require changes in the code
<Cimi> not buge changes
<Cimi> but something
<Cimi> *huge
<troy_s> Cimi: I am using Glider (nice additions you put in there if I am not mistaken)
<troy_s> Cimi: The ONLY thing I would change on glider is a slight rounding of tabs / buttons.
<Cimi> I haven't worked with glider
<troy_s> That's it, but I don't think it is possible with Murrine, is it?
<Cimi> just Clearlooks
<Cimi> Gummy
<Cimi> GLossy
<Cimi> Inverted
<Cimi> and Classic
<Cimi> and murrine too
<troy_s> Glider is absolutely perfect from the aesthetic I am working towards... minus the square corners.
<troy_s> I just don't know how hard it would be to twiddle the engine into supporting radius.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Glider is a theme?
<TheSheep> Cimi: you have a good chance to monopolize the gtk theme engine market ;)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Control set... try it.
<TheSheep> hello goys, by the way
 * _MMA_ looks.
<TheSheep> guys
<troy_s> TheSheep: Greets friend.
<Cimi> I don't like glider
<troy_s> Cimi: It avoids the nasty outline tango mess
<troy_s> Cimi: And it is deadly clean.
<troy_s> Cimi: I just wish it had about a 3 px round.
<Cimi> it's much more simpler to hack murrine supporting the highlight then rewriting all the glider theme
<TheSheep> Cimi: it's always easier to work with your own code
<Cimi> not for this
<Cimi> just because adding the highlight is just few lines
<Cimi> supporting the radius in glider seems to requrire rewriting things there and there
<troy_s> Cimi: Is that possible?
<troy_s> Cimi: Because the basic look of mist/glider is relatively simple.
<Cimi> troy_s, the highlight in murrine?
<troy_s> Cimi: Oldschool highlight on two edges/darker on two... nothing else.
<Cimi> troy_s, candido-like
<Cimi> http://candido.berlios.de/pages/engine.php
<Cimi> by me
<troy_s> Almost exactly, but with rounded and no outlines.
<Cimi> ok
<Cimi> outlines?
<Cimi> where?
<troy_s> Cimi: The outlines around the buttons of a singular colour
<troy_s> Cimi: As in the button would only be say, 1 pixel of highlight and 1 pixel of dark.
<Cimi> border?
<troy_s> Yes.
<troy_s> Border.
<troy_s> Can you turn that off in Murrine?
<Cimi> it will be horrible imho
<Cimi> and not usable
<Cimi> theme will lacks of contrast
<troy_s> Cimi: It is what I am looking for.  I have normal vision and am not too worried about outlines on everything.
<troy_s> Cimi: I am assuming the highlights / shade are different enough to provide a single pixel outline.
<TheSheep> plus shadows help here if your wm supports them
<troy_s> Cimi: The borders clunkify the entire theme too much ala Tango.  It isn't terribly elegant nor professional app looking (which is another reason I require it.)
<Cimi> I've never seen an app without them
<troy_s> Cimi: Glider and such don't use them.
<troy_s> Cimi: And they work fine.  Plus a good deal of the look that I am trying to merge with avoids that Tango look.
<Cimi> you're in front of a tango lover :)
<troy_s> Cimi: And on a personal note I despise outlines almost as much as Steve Jobs despises buttons.
<troy_s> Cimi: I hope it isn't viral.  ;)
<Cimi> ahahah
<Cimi> no no :)
<troy_s> Cimi: Is that a flexibility that you could integrate into Murrine or is a huge deal?
<Cimi> for buttons
<Cimi> borders
<Cimi> I think I can do it in a clean way by bumping up gtk version to 2.12
<troy_s> Cimi: Yes. All of the 3D elements seem to have borders in most GTK implementations, where say, Mist/Glider avoid them.  Unfortunately, Mist and Glider don't have all of the lovely flexibility of Murrine.
<troy_s> Cimi: How would I track your development?  Are you located on Bzr or on your own servers etc?
<Cimi> svn
<Cimi> btw
<Cimi> murrine wasn't written to a flat look in mind
<Cimi> so...
<Cimi> i will take a look if I have time
<Cimi> and obviusly if
<Cimi> as I've said before
<Cimi> mark will sponsor my development
<Cimi> mark = Canonical
<Cimi> I can't work for weeks and absolutely for free and for him =)
<troy_s> Cimi: Oh I wouldn't expect you to do anything really.  I was just wondering how hard it would be etc.
<Cimi> nothing hard
<troy_s> Cimi: As I would probably need to cludge bloody Glider or something.
<Cimi> but a question of time
<troy_s> Cimi: I would hate to do it, but I would if no other theme / engine / etc. offered the option.
<troy_s> Cimi: I have no clue what Ubuntu main would want from you.
<Cimi> me too :)
<Cimi> I've available if someone ask me to develop and support
<Cimi> but I can't work for free and for months, supporting everything and coding all day without anything
<Cimi> it's not fair to me :)
<_MMA_> Cimi: Ubuntu wants nothing from you specifically. As I understood it Ken is wanting to use Murrine but might want to do things that require coding. Thats it.
<_MMA_> He just might not be aware of all the options Murrine has.
<Cimi> _MMA_, ken and me already discussed in pvt a lot of time
<_MMA_> Lots of things hinge with his meeting with Mark.
<Cimi> yep
<Cimi> but as I said
<Cimi> I'm here
<Cimi> available to him
<_MMA_> Sure. I just dont want you to think you cant make a move without him. Which what it looks like. Just could be a language thing.
<Cimi> obviusly I don't need any money if I can work one day to do a mod
<Cimi> but if it will require weeks and support the engine for the rest of the LTS support
<_MMA_> I doubt it will come to that unless he has you hack on a new "UbuntuLooks".
<Cimi> _MMA_, I can do anything I like with cairo actually
<Cimi> I'm using cairo in gtk engines from 2 years
<Cimi> I'm very experienced
<_MMA_> ok.
<Cimi> so he can also give me a mockup and say "do it!"
<Cimi> I can do if it don't requires hacks in the gtk+ libs
<Cimi> btw
<Cimi> saying "i pay you ten dollars for using murrine and helping me with the support"
<Cimi> is just like saying "thanks for your work"
<Cimi> and it is very appreciated
<Cimi> I don't want to become rich with this :)
<_MMA_> Ok. :) Well the family is done what they were doing and now I have to run.
<_MMA_> later.
<Cimi> troy_s, do you agree?
<kwwii> I agree, if that helps any :-)
<Viper550> _MMA_ sorry I had to so so suddenly
<troy_s> Cimi: I would gladly donate to the fund if you had an easy way to deal with it.
<Cimi> troy_s, I guess mark has more money than all freenode users actually :)
<troy_s> Cimi: Well yes, but never underestimate the power of the masses.  Without them, Mark would have zero body of work.
<troy_s> Cimi: Further, if you are receptive to the needs / desires of the public, I would assume that you could generate a good deal of donations.
<troy_s> or contributions
<Viper550> hey thar troy_s
<troy_s> Greetings Viper550
<Viper550> yeah, back for Hardy, finally divin' back into Ubuntu. I proudly have Gutsy running in VirtualBox on my newer computer (which unfortunately runs Vista)
<Cimi> troy_s, btw I'm working on your request since 2 hour
<Cimi> s
<troy_s> Cimi: Sheesh.  You didn't have to do that!
<Cimi> troy_s, you asked me..
<TheSheep> troy_s: he just enjoys it ;)
<troy_s> Cimi: I asked if it was a big deal lol.  I never expected you to dive right in.  Needless to say, thanks a bunch.  Wow.
<Viper550> I have been playing around with Gutsy, love the new color scheme options
<Viper550> Also, from what I saw, we'll be able to ship multiple preset color schemes on themes
<Viper550> troy_s: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1431/schemesrp3.png
<troy_s> Viper550: What am I looking at.  Looks similar to XP had someone wanted to generate a Clearlooks version.
<Viper550> you'll be able to have multiple color schemes with one "theme"
<Cimi> I've forced a friend of mine to code it :)
<Viper550> haha...we were also discussing that Fedora 8's new theme is just a "modification" to Murrine
<Viper550> Also, I know that I am jumping the gun a bit but...
<Viper550> I'm already getting ideas for Hardy, all the GTK based Hardy distros actually
<Viper550> hello?
<Cimi> hi Viper550
<Viper550> I have been working on a side-project for Ubuntu Studio 7.04
<Viper550> Right now, it's this "hack" of Crux with a dark grey/blue color scheme
<Cimi> I go to bed
<Cimi> bye Viper550
<steester> Â anyone here?
<rexbron> Hey all you Ubuntu artists, I have a favour to ask. I have packaged an app for Ubuntu, but it lacks an icon. Any one interested in creating a tango icon for Genpo http://genpo.sf.net ?
<Viper550> _MMA_?
<Viper550> hello?
<thorwil> hi!
<thorwil> ubuntu version symbols: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2007/11/18/ubuntu-version-symbols/ :)
<_MMA_> Viper550: I'm here. Though, with it being Sunday, I'm not real apt to talk about "Ubuntu stuff". ;)
<Viper550> Yeah, I finished my GTK theme proposal
<Viper550> _MMA_ http://bay01.imagebay.com/_upload/img/24/usgutsyfjs.jpg
<_MMA_> "with it being Sunday, I'm not real apt to talk about "Ubuntu stuff"."
<Viper550> anyone else here?
<TheSheep> what do you think? http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/corky-flower.png
<hbons> TheSheep: pretty cool
<TheSheep> I'm just afraid that people will make holes in my monitor with tacks XD
<_MMA_> TheSheep: Do you have a blank one? Id like to use in on my screen.
<TheSheep> _MMA_: I have one without the flower, with only the logo
<_MMA_> That would work.
<TheSheep> what do you think? http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/corky.png
<TheSheep> sorry
<TheSheep> ok, should work
<TheSheep> I also have the texture, but without some cloning it's pretty repetitive
<hbons> the flower was what made it nice:P
<_MMA_> TheSheep: Icons with white text are a little hard to read. I like the texture. :) What id Xubuntu going for this time?
<TheSheep> _MMA_: I have no idea, I'm just a user
<TheSheep> _MMA_: there is some bikeshedding on the mailing list, but most people seems to like the last theme
<TheSheep> someone suggested the gtango icons
<TheSheep> (crashbit icons)
<_MMA_> Xubuntu doesnt even look to have a Hardy page. :(
<TheSheep> jmak likes to work under cover apparently :)
<_MMA_> Thats fine. I did the same for Feisty/Gutsy. Most likely Hardy+1 as well.
<TheSheep> _MMA_: btw, I was inspired by this wallpaper: http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/desk.jpg
<TheSheep> but I don't know who made it or even where I got it
<_MMA_> Nice.
<TheSheep> I love the effect, and it's really comfortable to work on
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-10
<Nece228> The new human-murrine in intrepid looks more shiny, cleaner, smoother
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-11
<xivulon> hi thorwill
<xivulon> wanted to thank you "in person" for the logo and artwork
<xivulon> I am really pleased with tham :)
<xivulon> s/tham/them/
<thorwil> xivulon: you're welcome :D
<xivulon> If you have other ideas on the web/app design, just ping me
<thorwil> will do in that case :)
<robsta> hi
<robsta> may i ask what Project KyÅ«dÅ is, like, in one sentence?
<kwwii> it is an attempt at optimizing the artwork process with the intent of thereby creating pretty things :-)
<kwwii> thorwil can probably offer a better answer
<robsta> you mean so that ubuntu will no more be the distro with the ugliest default looks of the big 3? :P
 * robsta ducks
<robsta> just kidding
 * thorwil is reasonably satisfied with the one sentence answer
<robsta> so it's a process, not a style
<thorwil> correct
 * robsta was looking for mockups
<thorwil> robsta: a bit farther down the road kyudo could benefit from technical expertise, not to forget implementors ;)
<thorwil> robsta: are you subscribed to the ubuntu-art list?
<robsta> no, but i'm reading the archives every now and then
<robsta> anyway, not following what you mean by the above statement
<thorwil> robsta: we have very few artists, even fewer people who actually touched a theme and virtually no coders here
<robsta> i'd be happy to work with you in areas where our interests intersect
<thorwil> it's not always clear what is technically possible, what could become possible in reasonable time or what belongs into dreamland :)
<thorwil> robsta: cool :)
<robsta> if you have technical questions just post to gnome-themes-list, that's what it's for
<robsta> (or stop by in #gnome-art, where dreams are turned into nightmar^H^H^H reality)
<kwwii> if anyone has my ppa in their sources.list check the community-themes package that is coming down the pipes soon and let me know how it works
<kwwii> specificaly, the dust theme
<robsta> hey kwwii
<kwwii> hi robsta
<robsta> kwwii: fyi, good progress here, you can start designing themes
<thorwil> robsta: so, what are your interests, actually? :)
<robsta> thorwil: css theming for gtk
<kwwii> robsta: cool, I'll get the latest stuff and check it out
<thorwil> robsta: but that surely is a means to a goal?
<kwwii> for now I am getting a falafel ;-)
<robsta> kwwii: just not yet, but you can start _designing_
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> I have quite a bit of design ready
<robsta> kwwii, awesome
<robsta> thorwil, i'm not a designer, so the best i can do is giving them the means to reach the goal
<thorwil> robsta: so part of your motivation is a feeling that current offerings are not good enough?
<robsta> yes
<thorwil> good :)
<thorwil> robsta: i have been working on other stuff and need to get back to kyudo. part of what i'm planning is a call for per-widget mockups. per-widget to free the mind from having an eye on consistency right away
<thorwil> of course, so far i failed at getting anyone to contribute anything, with the exception of a bit of input on the text :}
<robsta> it's very hard to judge a theme from per-widget mockus
<thorwil> there is no theme with per-widget mockups ;)
<thorwil> ooh, nubuntu has an awesome logo: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/19437980/nubuntu_devel_192x192.png
<thorwil> it features lock-heads!
<thorwil> nand: hi! do you already know http://jldugger.livejournal.com/21851.html ?
<nand> thorwil: thanks, I have indeed answered on the comments
<nand> I gave a sample of votes, but I'm quite skeptic at the expected results...
<ethana2> I suppose this may be a tad offtopic...  but anyone in here use any wacom products?
<ethana2> ...the bamboo is looking tempting, but I don't know if it's actually as easy/fun to use as it looks
<ethana2> I don't want to blow $80 on something that's not fairly amazing to use
<ethana2> ah, digipro
<ethana2> It'd be nice to get the drivers for this into jaunty..
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-13
<robsta> hiy
<robsta> a
<robsta> kwwii: here's a little treat for you: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/14-border-image.png
<kwwii> robsta: wow, that is really nice
<robsta> kwwii, so people can now be serious with themes
<thorwil> robsta: what am i seeing there?
<robsta> thorwil, border style from an image, rather than css built-in
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-14
<MadsRH> Hi. I was working on the count-down banners for 8.10 and would like to discuss better colabrotion between all the Ubuntu derivatives for the 9.04 banners. Any thoughts?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-16
<thorwil> rsc-: hi, how is it going?
<rsc-> sup fellas.
 * _MMA_ waves
<thorwil> rsc-: i vaguely recall that you wanted to meditate about what i wrote about the means to deliver the message ;)
<rsc-> oh yeah, any developments on kyudo?
<thorwil> rsc-: no, delayed for work for wubi, mudlet and another attempt at a logo for lumiera :}
<thorwil> plus i have been runing the experiment: how long until someone asks me ... but just now decided to cancel it ;)
<rsc-> mudlet?
<rsc-> i got a chance to talk to Troy, he was working on something for Lumiera too
<thorwil> rsc-: see http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/mudlet-3/
<_MMA_> Troy needs to get his queer but back in here.
<_MMA_> *butt
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-09
<rsc___> hey. does anyone know why button icons were disabled by default on gnome 2.28 (and by effect, ubuntu 9.10)? not that I'm against it, but i'm just curious to how that's justified.
<mac_v> rsc___: it was upstream decision
<mac_v> rsc___: there are some details in andreasn's blog and the upstream bug > lp is Bug #407621
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 407621 in libgnome "(design decision) Icons missing from context menu , dialogue buttons , firefox bookmark favicons, system menu" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/407621
<darkmatter> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2009/10/13/browsing-your-personal-web/
<darkmatter> awesome
<darkmatter> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20091012-personalWeb/bookmarksLocationBar-i1.png
<thorwil> kwwii: received the first sign of live from robsta after weeks. his job keeps him too busy to work on the css-engine
<mac_v> darkmatter: IMO , bad idea , to move the tabs to the top... though it is logically correct , the cursor will now have to move further if the user wants to select/switch the tabs :/
<darkmatter> mac_v: that's not about the tabs. I linked it because of the bookmark/history navigation
<darkmatter> top tabs are stupid though
<mac_v> darkmatter: yeah , but just mentioning about the tabs ;)
<darkmatter> mac_v: I like the 'one' point in those mockups. the breadcrumb pattern (which is a standard ui feature in general, just not normally seen in the web/web apps), but it would be nice if the did a *total* ui convergence instead of an idea or two
<darkmatter> mac_v: that was a hidden shameless plug, since the crap I'm working on tries to converge as much as possible (I foresee many shell extensions to integrate web searches and services in the shell :P)
<mac_v> darkmatter: IE8 has a neat little thing , sort of like breadcrumbs, it groups the tabs by colors... iirc there is also an extension in firefox for that
<mac_v> if tabs are from one tab/thread , they are the same color
<mac_v> i thought the colors were dumb at first , but when you have several topics you are viewing it becomes easy to change the tabs
<darkmatter> mac_v: yeah. sorta the general idea I have. but as mines not a browser, it goes furture. but still the same general concept. group by type (rather than app) and by activity by default, allow freeform dnd regrouping to arange crap how you want. btw. my panel is also a dnd clipboard :P
<darkmatter> similar concept for toolbars, but adapted for the difference in usage
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, guess I shouldn't apply for a job with them then
<thorwil> kwwii: yeah, since you never work crazy times for canonical, eh? :)
<kwwii> lol
<mac_v> andreasn: hey , around?
<andreasn> mac_v: yes
<andreasn> mac_v: ah, right, I was supposed to reply to a bug
<mac_v> kwwii: andreasn: any idea where the bug really is in > Bug #439172
<mac_v> ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 439172 in gtk+2.0 "nm-applet icon blurry on 25+ pixel panel" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/439172
<andreasn> it could be in the panel code
<mac_v> the rest of the applets behave nice... nm is the rogue ;p
<andreasn> hm, yeah, I've seen nm doing odd stuff with other icon themes as well
<kwwii> mac_v: hrm, have you checked to see that the icons all exist at different sizes?
<mac_v> kwwii: i added the icon in all sizes but still the problem arises , nm just scales the icons rather than using them as is
<mac_v> not in the karmic theme , but locally
<kwwii> mac_v: hrm, sounds like a bug in the code then
<andreasn> it can't really be the icon.theme threshold thing...
<andreasn> since the others are behaving correctly
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, I don't think so either
<andreasn> I think it's a networkmanager bug rather than a Humanity bug
<mac_v> kwwii: it happens in all themes , even in breathe :(   , asac mentioned that nm uses a different icon call
 * mac_v remembers... when doing the nm icons for breathe ckontros bit my head off for that blurriness .. ;p
<kwwii> hrm, probably nm then
<mac_v> andreasn: kwwii: could you guys comment on the bug?  then i can bug asac to fix nm ;p
<kwwii> mac_v: responded
<kwwii> erm, commented I mean
<mac_v> awesome , thanks :)
<Owla> hmmmm.. hello?
<ckontros> Owla: Slow channel this time of day. Best just to ask your question.
<Owla> oh, I just wanted to ask how to submit a wallpaper. but a friend just told me to post it in the flickr group. sry :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-10
<zniavre> hello ?
<coz_> zniavre,  hey guy
<zniavre> what is the way to know the name of one (or several) trayicons easily ?im looking for the vlc , xchat and dropbox tray icons
<zniavre> i can't change them
<coz_> mmm
<zniavre> bonjour coz_
<coz_> zniavre,  bonjour mon ami   ca va?
<coz_> zniavre,   not sure exactly what you mean...the system tray?
<zniavre> great thank you , hope you are fine too
<zniavre> the tray is the notification aera into panel ?
<mac_v> zniavre: did you try running the gnome-panel from terminal? that *might* show the icon names too
<zniavre> ho trying right now
<zniavre> Cannot register the panel shell: there is already one running.  how to kill it ?
<zniavre> killall gnome-panel > gnome-panel   its what i did
<coz_> zniavre,  xchat should be in either  usr/share/app-install/icons  or  usr/share/icon
<mac_v> zniavre: $killall gnome-panel && gnome-panel
<zniavre> it does not help
<mac_v> zniavre:  the apps , you need to start after the panel is restarted
<coz_> zniavre,   i think that both mplayer and xchat icons are located in   /usr/share/app-intall/icons
<coz_> sorry
<coz_> /usr/share/app-install/icons
<mac_v> oh... there is a huge list of icons there o.0
<zniavre_> that s true
<coz_> zniavre,  I would just make a backup of those icons  ..then change any or all of them to your liking to see if that works
<zniavre__> mmm
<zniavre__>  this does not works for xchat
<coz_> zniavre,  look in   usr/share/icon for the xchat icon
<coz_> /usr/share/icons
<coz_> zniavre,  it could be an xchat.xpm  but I doubt it
<coz_> unless it is a larger .xpm icon
<zniavre__> it exists at least im gonna to try again
<coz_> cool
<coz_> zniavre,  did the other work for mplayer?
<zniavre__> i do not hav mplayer instaled
<coz_> ah ok
<zniavre__> im trying ...
<zniavre__> :o(
<coz_> no??
<zniavre__> no
<coz_> zniavre,  let me check here to see if there is another location
<coz_> zniavre,  /usr/share/pixmaps
<zniavre__> already changed
<coz_> mmm
<zniavre__> first test in fact after my onw theme in home
<coz_> zniavre,  when you changed the xchat icon in /usr/share/icons  did you save it as .xpm again?
<zniavre__> anyway someone smarter than me could do the xchat humanity icon
<zniavre__> i moved it into another folder
<zniavre__> and yes i saved it into same name same extension
<coz_> zniavre,  ok as far as I can see  xchat icons are only in  /usr/share/app-install/icons   /usr/share/icons and  /usr/share/pixmaps
<zniavre__> taht s why im asking cause i saw they are all in those folders but it does not work
<zniavre__> even for dropbox it's a bit hided somewhere but i can't find the good place
<coz_> zniavre,  it may be you have to restart the system for xchat's icon to be replace  but not sure
<zniavre__> ok trying right now
<zniavre> no
<zniavre> some tray icons are haunted
<coz_> mmm
<zniavre> hard coded stuff could be right ?
<coz_> let me check something
<coz_> could be  but let me check
<zniavre> :o)
<coz_> zniavre,   let me see if there is a conf file or xml file that might be at work here
<coz_> hold on  I have a nature call firsr  :)
<zniavre> :o)
<coz_> zniavre,     http://xchat.org/faq/#q27
<coz_> zniavre,  do you see how to do that ?
<zniavre> im trying
<coz_> cool
<zniavre> but there s no xcaht folder in the place they show
<zniavre> /opt/change/minis/xchat0.png  im trying this folder
<zniavre> /opt/change/minis/xchat2.png  maybe this one
<coz_> ok
<coz_> zniavre,  you see there are three tray icons you can change  message.png   highlight.png and fileoffer.png
<zniavre> but not the "regular" one?
<coz_> zniavre,  according to that link  if you change any or all of those icons  and place them where it says  it should change all of the icons  but I believe you need to name them the way they have them listed there
<zniavre> ok
<zniavre> i will go to school take my daughters first and re-work on xchat tonight thank you
<coz_> :)  yes real life comes first
<kwwii> hey kids
<knome> hello grandpa
<kwwii> :)
<knome> kwwii, how are you?
 * kwwii is on dallas time this week and next...quite busy
<andreasn> kwwii: is it uds now?
<kwwii> if anyone needs to get in touch with me please send an email
<kwwii> andreasn: next week is UDS...we have a design sprint this week
<andreasn> ah, cool
<kwwii> this is a crazy week, working very hard in a small room with the team and mark
<kwwii> sounds like fun, eh?
<andreasn> well, hopefully you'll come up with some nice stuff
<mac_v> kwwii: what are you guys basically , discussing about? any apps or ... is it all , full-palm-scan-required hush-hush stuff ;p
<mac_v> full-hand*
<kwwii> mac_v, DanRabbit: seen this yet? http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/11/humanity-style-icons-liferea-fusion.html
<mac_v> kwwii: yea , but doesnt that needs code change in the apps , so that the icons dont get displayed in the menus or app themselves?
<kwwii> mac_v: yeah, but we're working on that ;)
<mac_v> kwwii: also , do we really want all the icons to be greyscale :/  ... there is a thing of one too many ;p
<knome> kwwii, don't forget to ask under what license the work is going to be published
<andreasn> kwwii: you're working on that? cool
<andreasn> how are you solving it?
<mac_v> kwwii: aernt all the messaging apps using just the messaging menu? and only the message-new?
<mac_v> ... so are you folks considering expanding the icons used by the applet?
 * mac_v has been asking for that for a long long time ;p
<kwwii> mac_v: yes
<kwwii> and also we are looking into a way to have the gtk theme define whether it is dark ar light and choose icons appropriately
<mac_v> kwwii: yeah , mpt mentioned that idea of using the text color in the icons
<kwwii> well, this is something different but close
<mac_v> kwwii: andreasn mentioned that mccann was also interested in getting a patch for that
<mac_v> kwwii: oh ok :)
<kwwii> in the gtk theme we will set a variable "dark" for dark themes
<kwwii> and then the icon lookup will look for *-dark icons
<thorwil> what about medium themes? ^^
<mac_v> ;p
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> screw them
<mac_v> kwwii: hmm , that still ends up the need to make 2/3 different icons.. :/
<kwwii> mac_v: yepp, no way around that I fear
<mac_v> kwwii: which is a bit tedious , rather the -symbolic method sounds good ,  i heard it was do-able
<mac_v> ah , well what do i know ;p
<kwwii> mac_v: well, I guess we should have a longer discussion about this then ;)
<mac_v> kwwii: andreasn knows more regarding this , he seems to be away...  he mentioned mccann liked the idea and said it was possible to do it as part of the panel code , so that the panel decides the color of the icon.
<andreasn> in a meeting at work, will reply later :)
<mac_v> ;)
<thorwil> ouch. http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/763/ilame.jpg
<mac_v> thorwil: the article?
<thorwil> via http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/ubuntu-karmic-review/#comment-4029
<mac_v>  lol ... troy_s
<mac_v> ;)
 * ckontros waves
 * thorwil shakes
<mac_v> thorwil: too much dribble , eh? ;p
<troy_s> thorwil / ckontros / mac_v - Greetings.
<troy_s> mac_v: Maybe.
<mac_v> troy_s: thorwil: most of the design team are all OSX fans .. so no surprise there ;)
<troy_s> mac_v: It's lame.
<mac_v> yeah , a bit too similar
<troy_s> mac_v: Spreads more of the typical rubbish about Software Libre imitation / duplication.
<troy_s> mac_v: It destroys our credibility as a culture, further blemishes Canonical's credibility as a company, and, in the end, is just utterly lame.
<thorwil> one should see past their results to instead wonder how they get there
<troy_s> mac_v: Although, I guess when the lead marketing fellow doesn't even pronounce Ubuntu properly, what can we expect? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8326264.stm
<ckontros> :P
<troy_s> ckontros: Welcome back eh?  lol.
<thorwil> recently read from some author: never copy ideas. steal them! make them your own
<troy_s> thorwil: Amen.
<troy_s> thorwil: Well actuall the Amen was for the former.
<mac_v> troy_s: the "store" was named so because they intended to sell stuff in later versions... if you want more lame check this > Bug #419295
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 419295 in software-center ""Price: Free" is redundant when user is navigating in the "Get Free Software" section" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/419295
<troy_s> thorwil: And that is a quote from Pablo Picasso I believe - trivializing his own work via self deprication.
<ckontros> troy_s: Naa just home a bit early. Radiator on the wifes car blew. Was slow @ work so I decided to take a half day.
<troy_s> mac_v: But the point is that we had repositories _long_ before those other companies.
<troy_s> mac_v: The decision to title it 'store' anywhere is a blatant myopic decision.
<mac_v> ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: If memory serves me well it was something like "Good artists borrow.  Great artists steal."
<troy_s> thorwil: But again, in context, it was coming from a visionary and a master.
<thorwil> call it "Access to our repositories of ancient origin"?
<troy_s> http://arthistory.about.com/b/2009/01/26/good-artists-borrow-great-artists-steal.htm
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL.  Yeah... very Indianna Jones.
<troy_s> ckontros: Have you seen the first sign of a closet group at Microsoft making design strids?
<troy_s> strides even.
<ckontros> Should I read back for a link?
<troy_s> ckontros: I'm trying to find a video demo.
<ckontros> k
<troy_s> ckontros: I hate to say it, but the music play mode is very stylized and actually innovative as opposed to the crappy 'wet floor' Apple duplication / imitation / iteration umpteenth thousand with coverflow rip offs.
<troy_s> ckontros: Note the use of typography at the top of the image http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b11EF0x9G68&feature=fvw at around 55 seconds.
<troy_s> ckontros: The typography work when it is playing is pretty darn impressive.
<ckontros> Ahh.. New Zune. Yeah. If it played FLAC and simply acted like a HC to transfer music to, I might actually buy one.
<troy_s> ckontros: God no... its still toxically crippled.  But I'm trying to find a video on the music playing look.
<ckontros> 'twas a god video on the Xbox font development as well. I think I sent you that.
<troy_s> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYAghfCV4y0
<troy_s> ckontros: 1:32 - very lovely typography work.
<troy_s> ckontros: And what's more - I know I don't believe I am about to say this about Microsoft - it's original and defines its own style.
<ckontros> :P
<ckontros> Transition effects are real nice.
<troy_s> ckontros: The full bleed off with typography is pretty darn tight looking.
<andreasn> mac_v: kwwii, I think mpt's *-symbolic idea sounds fair, mccann said he could look into it, but he's quite busy in general. I guess the other approach could work as well
<troy_s> ckontros: It does a bunch of typographic style play during playback.
<ckontros> troy_s: http://gizmodo.com/5395720/ask-the-artist-how-windows-7s-iconic-home-screen-evolved
<mac_v> kwwii: andreasn: the gtk idea would work , but it would be better if mpt's idea is done :)  if mccann can do it , i guess someone else in the UX team can also do it ...  if dont how mpt mentions then the text and the icons will be the same color , and match perfectly
<mac_v> s/if dont/if done
<kwwii> mac_v: cool, we will definitely need to get this done for lucid, so I guess it is really important that we have a session at UDS about it
<troy_s> kwwii: Greets.
<troy_s> ckontros: Wow that's pretty cool.
<mac_v> kwwii: if the symbolic thing is done , there are a few other places where such icons can be used too
<troy_s> ckontros: It's pretty slick when someone shows their work in progress versions.
<ckontros> I thought it was interesting.
<mac_v> troy_s: note , Windows capped the image sizes ;)
<troy_s> mac_v: They are just proofs of principle mocks ... I could care less about the sizes. Interesting to hear the process...
<mac_v> troy_s: yeah , the process was quite interesting :)
<troy_s> ckontros: http://gizmodo.com/5226696/windows-7-release-candidate-1s-best-surprise-new-features
<troy_s> ckontros: Lol... I wonder what Shuttleworth and the rest of our community would say with that ballsy background.
<troy_s> ckontros: Good on them!
<ckontros> Yeah. That was really cool. Alot of fun. :)
<troy_s> http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/windows7backgrounds2
<troy_s> ckontros: Going to be difficult for everyone to retrofit their 'Must have dark corner, must not be contrasty, must not have any thematic...' discussions eh?
<troy_s> ckontros: Typical dated minimalist myopic thinking.  Dare I say postmodernism has _finally_ hit mainstream.
<ckontros> Who knows.
<ckontros> I'm just trying to fins someone to take over Studio art.
<ckontros> Take it to the next level.
<coz_> zniavre_,  did that work for your icons?
<ckontros> I'll do what I can for Lucid but welcome anyone to come in and do the job right.
<coz_> ckontros,  next level?
<troy_s> ckontros: I heard you were thinking of Tendrils?  SUSE just jumped on that dead trend... if you are going to follow a trend, go with disco.
<ckontros> coz_: Something far above what it is now.
<coz_> ckontros,  in terms of desktop images?
<coz_> what specifically?  I just got here so....
<ckontros> troy_s: Yes, it has been a thought. I was gonna work on a edgy variation but havent had the time. Hopefully this week.
<troy_s> ckontros: This guy's work http://www.flickr.com/photos/signalnoiseart/2491620479/in/photostream/
<troy_s> ckontros: Bloody brilliant.
<coz_> troy_s,  a bit busy that piece no?
<troy_s> ckontros: http://www.flickr.com/photos/signalnoiseart/4089680981/
<troy_s> coz_: Lol... you missed the previous discussion...
<coz_> oh
<troy_s> coz_: A desktop is a place where people live, it should be alive.
<troy_s> http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/windows7backgrounds2
<troy_s> coz_: Postmodernism hit mainstream apparently.
<ckontros> coz_: Everything. I'm gonna just refresh the theme and make a icon set based on Breathe but I have no thematic as of yet. Has to tie into the site as well. I'm looking for someone to come in with a concept that can execute it. (with technical help on course)
<troy_s> ckontros: (Side note, look at the ad in that last link... lol)
<coz_> troy_s, I could never work with that stuff on the desktop :)
<troy_s> coz_: I think it is bloody refreshing to see.
<coz_> troy_s,  I would rather a mid range grey  lol
<troy_s> coz_: Well, sadly, my two desktops are 18% middle grey.  Ugh.
<coz_> :)
<coz_> troy_s,  easy work environment :)
<troy_s> coz_: Painful, but it works for value comparisons.
<coz_> absolutely
<troy_s> ckontros: Wow... looks like he did the Legacy work.
 * ckontros has been using kwwii's butterflu for weeks w/Hanzo. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kwwii/3865853724/
<coz_> troy_s,  my african masks are far too garish and too ethnic still to be considered
<ckontros> *butterfly
<troy_s> ckontros: http://www.sci-fi-o-rama.com/2009/07/30/james-white-tron-legacy-poster/
<troy_s> ckontros: James White.
<troy_s> ckontros:  http://veerle.duoh.com/art/comments/james_white/
 * ckontros tries to hide his, um, "excitement".
<troy_s> ckontros: Good Canuck!  Nova Scotia.  Woop.
<coz_> mm to each their own I suppose
<troy_s> ckontros: http://blog.signalnoise.com/
 * ckontros clicks again.
<troy_s> coz_: I think it is pretty damn refreshing stuff. The geometry work is amazing.
<coz_> troy_s,  I suppose  ... alot of photoshop work there
<troy_s> coz_: All of it. But to suggest that the tool gave birth to that is folly. If that were the case, all we would need to do is buy people copies of Photoshop (and in fact, that is indeed what is peddled in the marketing campaigns somewhat subtly)
<coz_> troy_s,    well I realize the concepts  are individual  but the process of achieveing them is photoshop
<coz_> too bad it wasnt done in inkscape
<ckontros> Uh no. There's nothing there you cant do with other tools.
<troy_s> coz_: Not going to happen until the developers start listening to the needs of the audience.  Mind you, if all we care about is 22 pixel icons, it is irrelevant.
<ckontros> Hell, that style has been here for a long time.
<coz_>   :)
<troy_s> ckontros: To be fair, the performance issue in Inkscape is a show stopper.
 * ckontros notes, "other tools". :P Corel? :D
<troy_s> ckontros: Actually, it is right in our demographic - he just pastiched it and made it contemporary again with some clever work.
<troy_s> ckontros: Sort of unfortunate that CDraw never got released from Xara - Xara _really_ had performance - especially in the gaussian blurs.
<ckontros> troy_s: Sure. I'll contact Soini to do Studio's art. :P
<coz_> troy_s, figurative pieces are nice
<coz_> not for ubuntu I would expect
<ckontros> troy_s: Didn't Xara's code get pulled to Inkscape?
<ckontros> Oh. Gotta go for a couple. bbs
<coz_> ckontros,  I dont xara follow svg standards at all
<troy_s> ckontros: The missing component - the manner it wrote to canvas and the optimizations, I don't think ever got released as Libre.
<ckontros> Ahh...
<troy_s> Some pretty amazing processing demos on this fellows site... http://www.flight404.com/blog/
<troy_s> http://www.flickr.com/photos/flight404/sets/72157622560778471/
<troy_s> s/processing/Processing
 * mac_v realizes that troy_s likes shinny sparkling stuff ;p 
<coz_> troy_s,  are y ou suggesting that these images are  good for an ubuntu version as default images?
<mac_v> troy_s: those pics are great for addverts and stuff, but how long can you stare at them as a desktop?
 * mac_v would start having an eye-sore
<coz_> mac_v,  I agree
<coz_> mac_v,  not at all appropriate for desktop use
<troy_s> mac_v: Hrm... I'd say Windows7 did a little homework :)
<troy_s> mac_v: I think the whole point everyone is missing is that we aren't working in banks.
<troy_s> mac_v: Go out and look at what _typical_ people put on their desktops.  Go look at what they use for decoration.  Examine those trends and how they are inherently attached to the audience at hand.
<troy_s> mac_v: We have this hideous believe in Libre culture that we need to be clinical, sterile, and that all of art / design is static and mathmatical.
<troy_s> mac_v: In reality, it is no such creature.  It is reactionary, active, and dynamically shifting.  It is response to culture.
<mac_v> troy_s: i think you are mistaken , with a typical user and power user... the typical user *never* changes the default wallpaper
<troy_s> mac_v: Ugh.
<troy_s> mac_v: You sound like Hollywood.
<kwwii> Fill:
<troy_s> mac_v: I'll make you a wager.  Go to your friends desktops and look at them.  I will bet you that one in ten is default.
<mac_v> lol ;)
<kwwii> wow, that was close
<troy_s> mac_v: Those 'estimations' are simply far from reality.
<mac_v> troy_s: our friends are power users , they are not an average user... an average user is a non-tech savy user... i was mentioning that... the most advanced among those average users , use family portraits....
<mac_v> which is really sad :(
<troy_s> mac_v: The typical AVERAGE USER knows how to change their desktop.
<troy_s> mac_v: Sorry.  That is just an incorrect assumption.
<troy_s> mac_v: But go out and look around you at coffee shops and libraries and such places if you don't believe me.  You will see their dogs, cats, children, etc.
<mac_v> troy_s: those are among the 'family' ;)
<troy_s> mac_v: Even more so, the discussion misses the point.  The default wallpaper is _always_ changed (hell even Steve Jobs said that) but it is iconic of what you attempting to communicate.
<troy_s> mac_v: Which is precisely why Leopard pushed their Time Machine theme and Windows7 went to that contemporary set of wallpapers.
<mac_v> troy_s: the default wallpaper must express the spirit of the OS and not just an artistic design
<troy_s> mac_v: There is nothing worse than underestimating the intellect of your audience.  _Nothing_.
<troy_s> mac_v: I'd say they are one and the same.
<coz_> troy_s,  that underestimating statement I agree ith
<troy_s> mac_v: A default wallpaper - hell _anything_ communicates.  It could communicate "we have no identity"
<mac_v> +1^
<mac_v> ;p
<troy_s> mac_v: The whole point of all of this is that _everything_ communicates, _everything_ speaks in a language whether you want it to or not.  Look at that iLame sillyness I created...
<mac_v> i meant the +1 for the Underestimating
<troy_s> mac_v: The 'language' chosen to represent Karmic is simply and fundamentally flawed.  It speaks design duplication / imitation / etc.
<coz_> troy_s,  wow I never expected an understantement :)
<coz_> understatement
<mac_v> troy_s: the iLame was a good example .. not sure if the design team ripped off or somehow the ideas ended up creapy similar :/
<troy_s> Wonderful discussion guys, but unfortunately my 'three-mouse-wheel-spins-to-get-to-my-year-of-birth-in-a-webform' grinding of teeth need to be sealed to prevent further damage to them.  :)
<troy_s> mac_v: Ripoff.
<troy_s> mac_v: Unless you live in a rock, you know what to touch and what not to.  Unfortunately our _entire_ culture looks to Apple and MIcrosoft as opposed to looking at life and where it is going.
<coz_> well a desktop image must be artistically sound... simple  and unobtrusive
<mac_v> coz_: amen :)
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> coz_: A desktop image should be what embodies the project. Maybe its radical revolution.  Maybe it is a completely different thought.  Maybe it is stale fat bankers in a kiosk listening to musak.
<coz_> troy_s,  but still must maintain those three values
<troy_s> coz_: Disagree.  People will change them anyways.  It is as much a marquee and billboard in every single screenshot as it is pure utilitarian design.  To presuppose exactly what a desktop should be also presupposes that you are dealing with a _singular_ audience.
<coz_> troy_s,  I have clients that do not change ...for example..jaunty's default background
<troy_s> coz_: So the question is - what connotes more value?  A voice or pure utility (knowing full well that just about every single person on the planet knows how to change a wallpaper)
<troy_s> coz_: Unfortunate.  But that is a flaw with the interface design then, isn't it?
<troy_s> coz_: A trip to Starbucks would reveal that short of _everyone_ in there with a laptop, a media player, a phone - has probably changed the default background. :)
<troy_s> coz_: Maybe that is a testament to an interface presupposing something about an audience without knowing it?  ;)
 * troy_s jets.
<coz_> troy_s,  true  but you cant control someones preferences
 * troy_s to be continued.
<mac_v> troy_s: again , the coffee show users are power user , hence they roam with their laptop , they will always change the wallpaper , so why are we targetting them?
<mac_v> coffee-shop*
<coz_> true
<coz_> I think the only wallpaper offered on ubuntu that was nearly decent was the jaunty default...not perfect but certainly unobtrusive and  tolerable
<troy_s> mac_v: Reinforce your guesses with research.  My mother in law changed her wallpaper.  Go to a University?  Anywhere.  It is simply underestimating the ability of a vast number of people that have grown up with technology.
<troy_s> coz_: And guess which one gained the most discussion and commentary?
<troy_s> coz_: The one kwwii created for Hardy.
<coz_> ooo
<coz_> let me revisit that wallpaper   hold on
<coz_> oh god
<coz_> I hated that wallpaper
<coz_> :)
<thorwil> mac_v: changing wallpapers is sometimes among the first things a novice learns. there was also an anecdote of employees (secretaries and such)changing BGs despite a lockdown that was supposed to be in place
<zniavre_> coz_,  good evening , no it does not work , i guess i have to compile xchat to change the trayicon
<mac_v> troy_s: not a guess :) ... well , to give a family reference... My father has never changed the wallpaper , and he uses the system daily... 5days a week and so dont several of folks i know of the similar age group
<mac_v> thorwil: ^ , they just say "meh" what do I need to change it for?"
<coz_> zniavre_,  yeah that was the other options given on that link
<coz_> zniavre_,  sorry to hear this though
<zniavre_> yep
<zniavre_> a bit complicated to submit an humanity xchat icon  :o)
<coz_> zniavre_,   y ou could go to #xchat and discuss this although I think they will offer up that same link I gave you
<coz_> zniavre_,  unless you can get ahold of one of the developers
<mac_v> thorwil: we are thinking from our perspective... sure, it is among the firs things i do too , but i was surprised by their response , they really dont care what the wallpaper is and they never wanted to change it , they dont even change the default theme ... very rarely they ask , how do i set my grandchilds photo or something...
<thorwil> mac_v: my experience is entirely different
<thorwil> mac_v: a whole group of mainly middle-aged mothers. all of them enjoyed chnaging wallpapers and did so more than once
<coz_> well sure   they are mothers :)
<mac_v> thorwil: I'v seen sooo many systems with the same old XP default wallpaper and wondered how they even stand it ;)
<coz_> god I hate that one too :)
<mac_v> for ~5-6yrs... they'v had the same one ... argh!
<coz_> I have even seen it offered for ubuntu :(
<mac_v> lol  , i have a wallpaper changer which changes the wallpaper for every 10 mins ;p
<thorwil> kwwii: do cabs in dallas accept 3 passangers?
<ckontros> I would imagine.
<thorwil> ckontros: cabs in some places have a panel in between for security reason, leading me to wonder if that implies a restriction to 2 passengers max
<troy_s> mac_v: I think the research doesn't validate the claim.
<mac_v> troy_s: lol , i'm not claiming, but that was *just* my personal experience... anyways... might be cultural differences are in play here...
<troy_s> mac_v: I personally think we really need to back the 'logic' up with testing.  My bet is that if you stood on a downtown streetcorner and asked "Who changed their wallpaper", the result would be pretty overwhelming 'yes.' Again though, that is really missing the whole discussion point.
<troy_s> mac_v: My cheek is numb.  Ach.
<mac_v> anyways , its pretty late here... ttyl :)
 * mac_v $cd bed...  nite all :)
<DanRabbit> kwwii: yea, I've seen those. They are cluttering up gnome-look 0.0
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-11
<rsc___> so hey.
<rsc___> what does it mean when something's supposed to be "tango compliant"?
<coz_> rsc___,  there are requirements for tango let me see if I can find that
<coz_> rsc___,   http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines
<rsc___> ah. there we go.
<coz_> rsc___,  I am personally not very keen on tango icons etc but many many  people are
<rsc___> i see a lot of people making a fuzz about an icon set's "tango-compliance" even on icon sets that bear little resemblance to Tango. I always assumed this was some convention on filenames, but i realized that's freedesktop's (i think)
<rsc___> neither am I really
<rsc___> at least, it's visual style with a tendency to have thick strokes when upscaled
<coz_> yes
<rsc___> but i've always found the effort it took to orchestrate and execute to be beyond admirable.
<coz_> now there is the new  elementary project  and it is starting up a bit slowly
<coz_> I dont see ...or actually havent looked... to see if elementary has requrements for it
<rsc___> ah, there... from what I understand, Ubuntu's new icon theme humanity is a derivative of that, and I often hear complaints today of it's tango (non-)compliance
<coz_> http://www.elementary-project.com/
<rsc___> awesome.
<coz_> I prefer that look over tango
<rsc___> same.
<rsc___> massive improvement imho.
<coz_> rsc___,  well its another choice ... and the more choices someone has  regarding linux ... I believe... the better off everyone is
<rsc___> yep.
<rsc___> IMHO, it's also evolution.
<rsc___> tango was and is a great effort.
<rsc___> i bet a lot of these icon themes started as a project to improve upon tango (gnome-colors, elementary, and the likes)
<coz_> rsc___, http://www.oxygen-icons.org/
<rsc___> and today the humanity set's a very welcome improvement to the linux desktop (in most peoples opinion anyway)
<rsc___> oxygen was good too
<rsc___> wasn't much of a fan though
<coz_> understood
<mac_v> kwwii: hope you guys plan to add new sounds for Lucid...
<kwwii> mac_v: dude, I wish that too
<kwwii> but I can almost promise you that it will not happen because the whole chain is not in place
<kwwii> then again, maybe I am just being stupid
<kwwii> time for sleep
 * kwwii is not in the best of mood and I apologize for it
<mac_v> thorwil_: hey , did you see the scrollbar in google wave? its kinda similar to your idea... not exactly, but sorta
<mac_v> thorwil__: ping... ;)
<thorwil__> mac_v: about to take a walk. shoot. quick.
<mac_v> thorwil__: did you get my earlier IM>  hey , did you see the scrollbar in google wave? its kinda similar to your idea... not exactly, but sorta
<thorwil__> mac_v: no, didn't. if i only knew what causes my recent connection problems ...
<thorwil__> mac_v: i saw them on screenshots but have no idea how the work
<mac_v> thorwil__: yeah , i noticed you kept dropping out... hence ;)
<mac_v> thorwil__: it works kinda similarly , the scrollbar is fixed in size
<mac_v> but it does not appear where the user points
<mac_v> and not sure if page scroll is present
<mac_v> thorwil__: I'm sure you can also get an invite at the UDS  ;p
<mac_v> for google wave
<mac_v> thorwil__: anyways , just wanted to mention... you could use it as a plus point when you show it to others  ;) [google likes your idea]
<thorwil__> mac_v: only for the vague notion that google is willing to put something different in place of the traditional scrollbar ;)
 * thorwil__ leaves
<darkmatter> hmmm... I should pester the banshee devs
<mac_v> darkmatter: for the scrollbar? hyperair?
<darkmatter> mac_v: had a simple idea regarding the tooltip as a replacement for the mini player. instead of just a pretty tooltip. have it as a 'popup' as sorts, toss in the controls for previous, play/pause, and next in front of the progress slider (which would be able to be interacted with), and like an icon or button to restore banshee *shrug*
<darkmatter> mac_v: I believe in avoiding right-click context menus whenever possible. a ui should be fully discoverable for the most part, not hidden away :P
<mac_v> darkmatter: UNR does that [avoid right-click] in some places... but I get the point , yeah the controls can appear on hover and a user should be able to just click the overlay icons
<darkmatter> aye
<darkmatter> anyway. I need to commit the evil act known as 'sleep' o/
<mac_v> kwwii: sent you a mail...[an idea for the monochromatic icons] just a reminder , in case you get too busy with the sprint to even check mails ;p
<thorwil__> too busy for emails but still paying attention to irc? :)
<mac_v> thorwil__: well he keeps saying he gets a *lot* of mails... so this way he might try to get to the mail ;)
 * thorwil__ made backups right before creating an additional account, this time. hope it will not fuck up the whole installation again
<mac_v> thorwil__: best comment by one of the UX team "Day two. Shoot me." ;)
<heisemberg> hola
<heisemberg> alguien habla espaÃ±ol?
<heisemberg> que requisitos se necesitan para colaborar ....
<heisemberg> which are the requirements for working?
<mac_v> heisemberg: most of the users speak English here... Yo no hablo espaÃ±ol ;)
<heisemberg> ok
<heisemberg> then try to communicate through a translator
<heisemberg> I know that conditions are needed to help in this community
<mac_v> heisemberg: you can see > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork < for information about contributing to artwork
<heisemberg> as I begin
<thorwil> my /boot/grub is full of .mod's!!
<thorwil> where's the equivalent of menu.1st?
<mac_v> !grub2 | thorwil
<ubottu> thorwil: GRUB2 is the default Ubuntu boot manager in Karmic. For more information and troubleshooting on GRUB2 please refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2
<mac_v> thorwil: grub.cfg ,but do *not* edit it
<thorwil> reading, thank you, mac_v
<mac_v> np.. :)
<thorwil> i see a pattern here. we used to have an editable and dead simple resolv.conf ...
 * thorwil is unhappy about added complexity with no apparent gain
<mac_v> thorwil: any idea , whats with the mailing list? some mails dont arrive and some arrive late... very odd :/
<thorwil_> mac_v: didn't notice
<mac_v> thorwil_:  i got saleel's mail but havent yet got the initial mails sent by kwwii  , there seems to be some problems somewhere  :(  are you using gmail or ... ?
<thorwil_> mac_v: oh right, i sometimes do see replies arrive before what-is-replied-to. on various lists
<thorwil_> mac_v: i use a freemail provider via evolution. almost never via web interface
<mac_v> ah , so then its not just me... \o/
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-12
<mac_v> kwwii: something is wrong with the "Mailman"... it is not sending all mails to the subscribers... I dont receive all the mails :(
<claudiu> hi, someone can helpme with something: I've found this icon theme ( http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=105873&forumpage=1 ). But I like very much the GTK and metacity theme... theres someone who knows which GTK theme it is?
<kwwii> claudiu: that is new wave, I think
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-13
<zniavre> la version de awn beta est carement bien matte un coup: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5521/captureus.png
<zniavre> oops sorrry wrong channel
<zniavre> hello ...  :o)
<zniavre> hello
<zniavre> i just changed my screen from crt (21) to lcd (26')
<zniavre> usplash look "bizarre" now
<zniavre> looks*
<coz_> good day all :)
<mac_v> nite all ;p
<menor> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-14
<nhandler> I must admit, I'm not as familiar with the artwork team's procedures as I would like. But I wanted to know if anyone here would be interested in working on creating a presentation theme for Ubuntu (supported by LaTeX-Beamer and/or OpenOffice.org Presentation). Debian talked about a LaTeX-Beamer theme here: http://people.debian.org/~tille/talks/200507_debconf5-beamer/index_en.html
<nhandler> I think it would be very useful for LoCo events as well as conferences
<thorwil> nhandler:  posting to the ubuntu-art list has much higher chances as you reach many more people.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-15
<undurundur> Helo..
<darkmatter> well this is working out nicely. but gotta stash the work and do a back up later. hardware upgrade time commences in about 12 hours
 * ckontros waves
<darkmatter> o/
<mac_v> kwwii: not sure if this is among the list of apps which use the panel , seems the external mouse also uses the notification area > http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7197/notify.png
 * mac_v wonders how kwwii is going to convince Firefox to make monochrome icons too ;) > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png
<ckontros> mac_v: So when is the actual code for the panel icons gonna be done so these mono-chrome ones dont show in other places?
<mac_v> ckontros: I'm not sure.. kwwii is the one who knows about this... But,  most of the icons in the screenshot above dont appear in the apps , [only exception is rhythmbox]
<ckontros> mac_v: Gotcha. I'm just trying to keep up with this for Breathe.
 * mac_v hates mailman :/  , got kwwii's initial mail regarding the panel icons only today :/
<mac_v> ckontros: so , planning to have monochrome panel icons for breathe too?
<ckontros> mac_v: I'm more trying to keep an eye on it for how the standard shapes up. I could create panel icons that are different from the larger ones just color.
<mac_v> ;)
<ckontros> Ok. Enough tinkering for now. Gotta clean. :) bbl
<nemo> Say, I'm a fan of dark themes.  Of course, I run into UIs a lot where someone screws up and assumes all text is black.
<nemo> I was curious - in the case of yellow alerts w/ the close X I see on some gnome apps, is that generic, and is it just my theme that failed to specify the text should be black?
<nemo> or did the app specify the yellow background?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-15
<doctormo> wow lots of mailing list activity.
<thorwil> 0.o  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-5
<doctormo> Hey thorwil
<thorwil> hi doctormo
<doctormo> I notice j_baer has been very active in the art community mailing list. thoughts?
<thorwil> doctormo: great enthusiasm, some clear thinking, but over-eagerness
<thorwil> doctormo: for example, that libreoffice request doesn't belong at all and on top of that can't be filled in quite yet
<doctormo> seconded
<doctormo> thorwil: Do you think we need a meeting to discuss issues?
<thorwil> doctormo: i would think so, but seeing how my pointing out how the artwork team isn't ready to appear as a functional unit towards the libreoffice project twice, i doubt explaining it once again won't help
<thorwil> arg! i doubt explaining it once again will help
<doctormo> thorwil: Depends on the context of the discussion. I propose a meeting between myself, yourself and j_baer in private where we can discuss some of the over-eager and misplaced direction frankly.
<thorwil> doctormo: we can certainly try that
<doctormo> If we can get the three of us on the same page, then perhaps that's all we need to form a nucleus of a community team.
<thorwil> doctormo: the only other candidates would be vish and saleel (if he sticks around this time)
<doctormo> Worth inviting them in on this then. Would youlike me to set up the administration side of a meeting?
<thorwil> doctormo: yes
<thorwil> dinner time, bbl
<vish> doctormo, thorwil: i tried to bring it up the last time when he was around, but he seems a bit over lost?
<vish> s/over//
<doctormo> vish, thorwil: art team mailing list has the link for the meeting doodle poll
<thorwil> doctormo: doodled, thanks
<vish> thorwil: the time is in GMT?
<thorwil> vish: yes. the one thing i miss on doodle is selectable timezone (per user)
<vish> yea, and there is no indication of the timezone!!!
<vish> IMO, The key to building a team is to not talk always.. if one person is doing the talking always then its less of a team, even less if there is not much reply/output
<vish> thorwil: should the meeting have been 'baer intervention' ?
 * vish very bad! ;p
<thorwil> heh, yeah, bad vish!
<vish> thorwil: i think what might have gone wrong is, after UDS session baer might have thought that all the team needs now is just some leadership, or someone driving the team..
<vish> when actually its that we need a team!!
<thorwil> hmm, could be
<vish> hrmm! we better have that meeting fast, not sure what baer is thinking!!
<vish> last i heard he is not interested in doing the LibO work and not sure what community he is talking about when he mentions 'being interested' !!
<thorwil> vish: i guess that's an "apology " for my behavior.
<doctormo> vish: I'm terribly confused, could you fill me in on WTF?
<vish> doctormo: his latest reply on the LibO thread..
<vish> thorwil: yea, but still wheres the promised land?
<doctormo> I'm worried because he's looking less like a maverick and more like a disruptive element which each email to the mailing list.
<vish> yea..
<doctormo> I'd like to get his arse in here so we can chat.
<thorwil> vish, doctormo: he must be referring to http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/msg01191.html
<vish> thorwil: yea, but still not an excuse nor is that offensive..
<doctormo> thorwil: My only comment is that issues within the ubuntu community should stay in the ubuntu community.
<doctormo> But other than that, I think that it's just as wrong to stand up and count yourself as representing the art community in total.
<doctormo> which is what j_baer has done 3 times now.
<thorwil> doctormo: yes, that's the aspect of it i'm uneasy about. but from my point of view, John and David pulled that topic over there
<doctormo> pulled the topic?
<thorwil> doctormo: caused me to put the record straight by repeatedly "representing" the community (John) or saying how great the Team would be and what wonders it will do (David)
<doctormo> doh
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-16
<j_baer> Hey DoctorMo :-)
<doctormo> hey j_baer
<j_baer> I try the link from the list and it didn't work.
<j_baer> When would you like to get together?
<j_baer> The link I show is "http://doodle.com/fwkh25nm6p93tsip". Is this correct?
<doctormo> j_baer: Thanks, sorry for the delay was dealing with the blog.
<j_baer> Ok :-)
<doctormo> Are you on the doodle poll?
<j_baer> The poll page would not load.
<doctormo> j_baer: Are you still online?
<j_baer> Yep!
<doctormo> I'm trying to pm you, not sure if it's working.
<j_baer> I may not have it set up? :/
<thorwil> good morning!
<vish> kwwii: hi, could you update the topic for the channel? the font is available â¦ ;)
<thorwil> vish, doctormo: the artwork meeting doodle shows a single timeslot possible for all so far: friday 26, 16:00 UTC
<thorwil> http://doodle.com/fwkh25nm6p93tsip
<vish> yay! wfm
<vish> doctormo: maybe announcing that we want other members to join the meeting as well?
<vish> maybe the others just thought the meeting was for those mentioned in the mail?
<thorwil> "If you plan on dedicating time to organising and helping with the group"
<vish> we have 1000 subscribed members damn it!!! and only 5 have doodled, where is the community baer keeps mentioning?!!!???
<thorwil> "I'd like to especially invite j_baer, thorwil, vish and saleel to the meeting."
<vish> thorwil: yea, but where is everyone!! :s
<thorwil> vish: don't you know that most subscriber lists of open-source maling lists are filled up with zombies? never be, never see, only ever subscribe
<vish> why the hell do they subscribe! M$ spies ;p
<stjohnmedrano> at last i heard someone is talking
<doctormo> thorwil: I'mm be confirming the date/time and putting in an agenda.
<doctormo> later today
<ivanka> thorwil: hi, are you around?
<ivanka> doctormo: hi
<doctormo> Hey ivanka
<thorwil> ivanka: about to go for a coffee, to be back in 15 to 25 minutes for a short bit
<thorwil> ivanka: that would be now :)
<doctormo> thorwil: When we say we want to see what the Canonical design team are doing, I didn't mean in regard to their coffee breaks ;-P
<thorwil> heh
<ivanka> thorwil: hello!
<thorwil> doctormo: be glad i don't use twitter/identica!!!
<thorwil> hello ivanka
<ivanka> thorwil: sorry, I wandered off to make tea, then HR person spoke to me, then Calum, the Ale, then Oren,  the Otto
<ivanka> it has been a whirlwind!
<ivanka> :-)
<doctormo> Otto! I missed him at UDS, now I have a genetic wallpaper with no otto.
<ivanka> thorwil: anyway - you know that bug that someone said 'fixed released' on - I can't find the bug now!
<doctormo> vish: ping
<ivanka> doctormo: he is off to IoM to spend 3 days sprinting with Mark, might be best to leave him until next week :-)
 * doctormo wishes him the best of luck, and a mithril vest.
<thorwil> ivanka: hmm, it was listed on https://bugs.launchpad.net/buttons
<ivanka> yes and I registered it and now I can't find it for the life of me
 * ivanka goes and takes a closer look
<thorwil> ivanka: https://bugs.launchpad.net/buttons/+bug/673488
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 673488 in buttons "screenshots.ubuntu.com needs styling (affects: 3) (heat: 30)" [Medium,Fix released]
<thorwil> i did an 'advanced search' and ticked on all stati/statusses(?)
<doctormo> OK meeting agenda and calendar item sent, thorwil let me know if the ical file works.
<vish> doctormo: pong..
<doctormo> vish: you said that kwwii was current leader of the artwork team, is this correct?
<vish> doctormo: yea, he was and he still is afaic
<doctormo> vish: Can you invite him, or poke him until he responds about the meeting ont he 26th?
<thorwil> doctormo: works fine with Evolution
<doctormo> One thing we're going to have to decide is about leadership.
<vish> kwwii kwwii kwwii kwwii kwwii !!!
<vish> doctormo: poked him! ^ :D
<doctormo> Okay, vish if we can't get a response, would you be comfortable with a leadership discussion?
<vish> doctormo: well sure we can discuss, IMO, whatever we discuss and conclude in the end before we finalize we should run it by kwwii as well..
<vish> ivanka: it was not fixed.. it was changed accidentally by a new lp user..
<vish> the buttons bug.
<doctormo> vish: That's why I think it's important to poke, do you have his email address?
<vish> doctormo: cool sure..
<vish> just a sec
<vish> doctormo: https://launchpad.net/~kwwii has a list of them , i usually use kwwii@ubuntu.com ..   kwwii@sinecera.de  should be good as well
<doctormo> vish: You would be doing me a huge, huge favour by emailing him *pretty please*
<vish> doctormo: sure, np..
 * doctormo cheers
<doctormo> thanks :-)
<vish> doctormo: thanks..
<vish> sheesh people cant even figure out how to unsubscribe! :/
<doctormo> vish: oh?
<vish> doctormo: use the "get new mail" button ;)
<vish> doctormo: you've got a reply to your mail.. ;p
<doctormo> I blame bad UI design!
<doctormo> I got it now.
<vish> yea..
<vish> mailman does not have the option mentioned , but lp team mails have that
<coz_> vish,  I got your response to that icon for compiz/unity... we are likely going to use it for the ubuntu unity plugin in compiz
<vish> coz_: \o/
<coz_> vish,  it makes sense.. I wasnt aware of the official unity icon
<coz_> although it is rather "plain" :)
<vish> coz_: well, i'm not sure it was/is *the* official either, but since it is used in the lp page it  only people who have admin rights would have set it up on lp..
<vish> ..and the plain one fits the new branding though.. ;)
<coz_> vish,  I understand :)
<coz_> vish,  I just wanted to  at least offer an alternative :)
<vish> :)
<coz_> vish,  and since the plugin is on our end in compiz  ,  we will use it here
<coz_> I will have to pay more attention to the mailing lists for needed graphics  in the future
<thorwil> should we add a task to participate in http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/make_the_logo_suckier.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ucllc%2Fbrandnew+%28Brand+New%29 ? ;)
<coz_> eeww those are sucky
<thorwil> http://howlowcanyourlogo.com/gallery/
<vish> thorwil: you are an enabler!!! you help spread the new Ubuntu branding! you help suck! ;p
<coz_> :)
<kwwii> howdy
<kwwii> yes, I will be available on the 26th :-)
<kwwii> new job and all...kinda busy. sorry if I have been absent
<kwwii> vish: hey, I have band practice after work, so if you sent me an email I might not read it until much later tonight
<kwwii> anyway, with that I will get back to work
<vish> kwwii: cool! thanks :)
<doctormo> Thanks kwwii :-)
<vish> doctormo: ^
<vish> ah.. you noticed.. :)
<doctormo> vish: You have to get up early in the morning to stop me noticing! ;-)
* You're now known as ubuntulog
* You're now known as ubuntulog_
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<vish> thorwil or anyone: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/ninja.svg thoughts?
<vish>  its supposed to look like a ninja..
<thorwil> a real ninja.svg would never be called ninja.svg, as that's much too obvious!!
<vish> not sure which one among those looks decent enough for a new ninja' team
<vish> lol!
<vish> thorwil: if you have time, feel free to modify with it as well...
<vish> doh! there is a dup there..
<thorwil> vish: these are not clear enough, if the context doesn't provide hints
<vish> thorwil: well, its for a team called the 'papercuts ninja team' its just for use in lp for the team..
<thorwil> vish: try inward curves between the eyes, a bit like on http://nosheep.net/wp-content/upload/ninja.jpg
<thorwil> vish: and if you can make them black, that will help tremendously ;)
<vish> oooh..
<thorwil> realted: http://www.eglobe1.com/word/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/ninja-entry.jpg
<thorwil> related, even
<thorwil> awesome. XML Copy Editor Ubuntu package works, except the running app lacks its menu. a bug that already makes it future-gnomey
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-17
<zniavre_> good morning
<zniavre_> http://www.chrometheme.net/chrome-theme-creator-online.html#
<zniavre_> the Tints tab is weird for me i can't find a kind of "tints map" for color
<zniavre_> how to use it ?please
<zniavre_> https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aa86IE02TBXPZGtzZDU0NV85ZnFocnQzZGo&hl=en   fond it but it is not easy to use
<thorwil> http://www.davidairey.com/spec-work-request/
<vish> thorwil: wow!! that was an awesome reply from david!
<thorwil> vish: hmm?
<vish> thorwil: seen the movie Memento? ;)
<vish> thorwil: the link you you pasted earlier.. ;p
<thorwil> lol, oh that david
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-18
<thorwil> lovely.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7  ignores pretty much everything i said
<thorwil> good morning!
<thorwil> iainfarrell: please tell me the name and email address of the person responsible for ubuntu brainstorm
<iainfarrell> hi thorwil
<iainfarrell> 2 secs, on the phone
<j_baer> Hello Ivanka, are you available?
<ivanka> hi j_baer, sort of but it is the start of my working day so quite hectic
<ivanka> j_baer: are you up very late?
<j_baer> It is actually 5:20 am here :)
<iainfarrell> hi thorwil, sorry about that
<iainfarrell> very busy over here today
<iainfarrell> I'm chasing that same person, the IS guys have been at a conference for the last week or so
<iainfarrell> and I've now broken my toe
<j_baer> You wanted to check in about the screenshots tasks. I see there is a lot of discussion on the list.
<iainfarrell> but we need to catch up on it
<iainfarrell> why are you after them?
<iainfarrell> Logo related?
<thorwil> iainfarrell: no worries. doesn't matter if i get that address in an hour or in 2 days. yes, logo
<ivanka> j_baer: yes
<thorwil> j_baer: hi! i appreciate your investment in managing tasks and writing specs, but it's somewhat irritating to find a color palette and the natty narwhal mentioned as inspiration when that are the very things that are being discussed
<ivanka> j_baer: not sure 5:30 am is such a good time to talk about design problems :-)
<thorwil> iainfarrell: you might now especially enjoy: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_I2uQkGxIykM/TF5etmdiEEI/AAAAAAAAMT4/UEUgpLCctDg/s400/baby-toe+dailysnacks+dot+bs.jpg
<ivanka> j_baer: the site serves a brilliant purpose for the software centre at the moment and, in the first instance, this project is a reskin
<j_baer> Yes I see that now.
<j_baer> Are you getting what you need from the current discussions on the list?
<thorwil> the current discussion hasn't got what's needed to get to a clear picture
<j_baer> Hello thorwil, how can we improve this?
<thorwil> the *future* relation between screenshots.ubuntu.com and screenshots.debian.net is unclear
<j_baer> If this important for the task at hand?
<iainfarrell> thorwil: ha, yeah it was their curb stone brother who did it to me :)
<thorwil> j_baer: yes. need to know if pictures submitted on one site will always appear on the other
<thorwil> j_baer: as there is the question of co-branding
<j_baer> thorwil: Good point. Sounds like a requirement.
<j_baer> ivanka: Will the Ubuntu site hit off the debian data?
<ivanka> j_baer: I don't have all the answers, that is why this work requires some conversations to be had
<ivanka> j_baer: sadly, the boss summons and I must attend a meeting
 * ivanka will return later
<j_baer> ivanka: Have a good day!
<j_baer> thorwil: I must leave as well, have a good day.
<thorwil> j_baer: you too!
<thorwil> vish, doctormo: of interests regarding a design management site: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Design-Design-team-needs-and-Drupal-site-development-td1923425.html
<thorwil> see reaction in 3rd post
<vish> thorwil: did you happen to use that during UDS?  you were preparing that seeker stuff for UDS right..
<vish> ?
<thorwil> vish: no. preparing before uds, but not necessarily for
<vish> ah..
<thorwil> why?
<vish> thorwil: nah, was just wondering if i missed a session where it was brought up..
<thorwil> hmm, artwork is at the end of the xubuntu meeting agenda
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-19
<ivanka> vish: morning
<ivanka> vish: I just posted that blog - have a read and let me know if you want me to tweak it in any way
 * vish reads..
<thorwil> good morning!
<vish> ivanka: looks good.. thanks..
<coz_> hey guys..are there any previews  of the new ubuntu icons ?
<thorwil> coz_: last i heard it was all still in planning stages (including a call for input)
<coz_> thorwil,  ah ok,,, I had seen one of the ubuntu advertisement videos with some interesting icons and was wondering if they were the direction it was headed
<thorwil> coz_: which video?
<coz_> thorwil,  hold on  ket me get link
<coz_> thorwil,    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYTJPaM82nQ
<thorwil> oh how i hate it. "This video contains content from MemphisIndustries. It is not available in your country."
<coz_> no way
<coz_> thorwil,  hold on I can download it and putit on   dropbox
<thorwil> #&! the music industry and my country, too
<thorwil> most of the time it's Sony. which only would make me feel bad to ever buy anything from them. idiots
<coz_> thorwil,  yikes  I cant believe these things would be ...restricted... like that
<coz_> thorwil,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/screencasts/Ubuntu%2010.10%20UDS%2025.10.10%20New%20Ad.mp4.flv
<thorwil> coz_: thanks
<coz_> no problem
<thorwil> i know that one
<coz_> thorwil,  yeah I have seen it but until I heard about the new ubuntu icons  I had wondered if they were going to be similar to those
<thorwil> really don't know why youtube doesn't just mute the audio in such cases, if dumb copyright holders must have their way
<coz_> :)
<thorwil> coz_: you already see that style in action on ubuntu.com
<coz_> thorwil,  ah yes
<coz_> thorwil,  well I was kind of hoping for a preview of the new icons :)
<thorwil> i highly doubt it will be applied to a desktop icon theme
<coz_> mm hearing shuttleworth's uds  speech... it seemed they were going to have specific to ubuntu icons for compiz/unity but i may have heard him wrong
<coz_> not 11.04
<coz_> but the next LTS
<thorwil> coz_: chaotic is the one to talk with regarding this. though i bet for now the answer will be along "have some patience" ;)
<coz_> thorwil,  now doubt...an entire system icon theme is going to take quite a bit of time
<coz_> thorwil,  the echo icons theme for fedora..new version has something like 20 icons and the fellow or team has been working on it for 2 years now
<coz_> I think they may have given up :)
<chaotic> hey - yes it will :) I am currently writing the brief - so the gears have started turning...
<thorwil> :)
<coz_> chaotic,   cool :)
<coz_> chaotic,   any time line for just a preview of them??
<chaotic> coz_: nope, once the brief is complete, we will be putting it out for submissions to both agencies and individuals to see what talent there is out there
<coz_> chaotic,  oh very cool...so both canonical team and community people ...yes?
<chaotic> coz_: we will art direct and I have lots of ideas and research but I'd like it to be driven externally (ideally by the community)
<coz_> chaotic,  community ie  community art people or users in general ?
<chaotic> coz_: it will be open to all but I'd imagine will require someone with a good undersanding of the subject matter
<coz_> "community" often means one thing to me and another to everyone else :)
<coz_> cool
<chaotic> coz_: we'll produce an initial cut down set that covers all bases and documentation/guidelines that 'hopefully' will allow anyone to produce an icon that feels part of the family
<chaotic> coz_: I read the Android icon guidelines recently and was very impressed with the way the have handled/documented it
<coz_> chaotic,   i would be very interested in seeing the guidlines once they are  well grounded
<chaotic> http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/ui_guidelines/icon_design.html
<chaotic> coz_: right, sorry must get back to work now :) We'll be announcing through the design blog as soon as ready...
<coz_> chaotic,  thanks
<chaotic> coz_: np
<coz_> chaotic,  do well make  a lot of money :)
<thorwil> 0.o   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Accolades/Request-5 has nothing to do with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-5
 * thorwil emailed j_baer
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-21
<vish> thorwil: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/path.png  how is this one?
<vish> some how the first one seems better of the lot, without the mouth..
<thorwil> vish: if there is white page background, white might be a better choice fore the skin
<thorwil> vish: mouths are a big problem. try to get the expression across solely with the eyes
<thorwil> the current gray on black becomes as good as invisible under some viewing conditions
<vish> yea, mouth is more work.. and if it is brighter it is more obvious and kinda goofy
<vish> seems better to just leave it out.. easier rather.. ;)
<vish> thorwil:  i wanted to use the orange, to keep it closer to the smilies and since i'm using it in the banner.. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Ninja-banner.png
<thorwil> vish: nice typography
<vish> thorwil: hmm thanks, i can never be sure if you are making fun or are serious.. :p
<thorwil> vish: ninja could be closer to the type and you have to fine tune left vs right margin
<thorwil> vish: i don't use sarcasm in such feedback. or i would at least mark it one way or the other
<vish>  :)
 * vish checks margins again..
<thorwil> vish: if you have a gradient/lighting effect like that on the background, it's alway worth applying the same on the foreground. that is, a very subtle gradient to imply the same lighting situation. while considering that the "print" may reflect differently
<vish> ooh..
<vish> i tried that, but was lazy and tried with only one gradient..
<vish> will try with an extra gradient
<thorwil> vish: the margin on the right needs to be slightly larger to seem as wide as the left one. due to having straight lines on one side, and a curve on the other. the same reason why an o sits slightly below the baseline in common fonts
<thorwil> actually other way around, but i guess you get the idea ;)
<vish> thorwil: yeah.. i noticed that and tried to compensate, but looks like it needs a bit more tweaking
<thorwil> vish: looking at it some more, forget about seemingly equal margins. maje it obviously wider on the right, to babalnce the heavy weight of the smiley a bit
<thorwil> vish: do you actually have a use for several different expressions? neutral, 2 levels of smiling, a "now what are you up to?" and perhaps surprise should be doable with just eyes
<vish> thorwil: nah i dont have to use, i was just trying the expressions for the team logo..
<vish> thorwil: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Ninja-banner-tweak.png  this is just 2px to the right, and it seems empty in the center..
<vish> well atleast to my eyes..
<thorwil> vish: try moving both ninja and type leftwards. perhaps also decrease the gap between them
<vish> thorwil: seems better now : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Ninja-banner-twe.png
<thorwil> vish: yes. good use of gradients, too
<vish> yay, that does it for the logo.. thx thorwil..
<thorwil> my pleasure :)
<vish> gah! now , i'll have to write a blog post and announce the team..
<vish> thorwil: hehe first i was trying to get it right this way: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Ninja-banner%20%28another%20copy%29.png ;)
<thorwil> phew, good thing you changed direction :)
<vish> yeah, i could not get the right font size.. not sure what's up with that.. after 72 there is only 144 pt
<thorwil> vish: you do know that you can enter any number there? aside of just scaling the text on-canvas?
<vish> thorwil: i tried that, but Ubuntu font either doesnt have the size or inkscape is not doing it right here
<thorwil> vish: here i can have sizes like 80 or 96 without problem
<vish> thorwil: oops, i was using it wrong!! i had to hit 'enter' , i usually 'tab' out of the fields
<thorwil> 0.o
<vish> thorwil: like for the x and y axis, i just enter the number and tab to the next..
<vish> bad inkscape.. ;p
<vish> even for strokes and other stuff 'tab' is what i always use.. huh! PAPERCUT! ;p
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-11-12
<Tns> Hello
